# U.S. does not have enough high-skilled workers



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Point to a further failure of the US education system

The U.S. does not have enough high-skilled workers to meet demand for computer-related jobs, and employers are seeking immigrant talent to help fill that gap, according to a new report.
For every unemployed computer or math worker in the country in 2020, there were more than seven job postings for computer-related occupations, bipartisan immigration research group New American Economy found in the study.



https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/06/NAE-Envoy-Report-V2.pdf


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> Point to a further failure of the US education system
> 
> The U.S. does not have enough high-skilled workers to meet demand for computer-related jobs, and employers are seeking immigrant talent to help fill that gap, according to a new report.
> For every unemployed computer or math worker in the country in 2020, there were more than seven job postings for computer-related occupations, bipartisan immigration research group New American Economy found in the study.
> ...


That doesn't sound like a lack of talent, it sounds more like a lack of willingness of employers to: a)attract talent or b)train their own talent. Employers might just have to step up their game a little.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> That doesn't sound like a lack of talent, it sounds more like a lack of willingness of employers to: a)attract talent or b)train their own talent. Employers might just have to step up their game a little.


We simply produce too few STEM graduates


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> That doesn't sound like a lack of talent, it sounds more like a lack of willingness of employers to: a)attract talent or b)train their own talent. Employers might just have to step up their game a little.


A company is not responsible for the basic training for the needed people. They may train in some very company specific technologies, but they have to have a pool to draw from that come from universities and trade schools.

Employers have no problem attracting foreign workers. We simply do not produce these highly educated people in large enough volume.

Both of my kids are high tech workers, and they make very good money. Their benefit packages are incredible.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

That's a bunch of BS. Back in 1976, I was hired by the Army for an intern program to become a Computer Analyst, because universities weren't turning them out fast enough. We went through 40 hours/week training for 6 months and then 1 1/2 years of on-the-job training, which simply meant you started working without any more training.

Three or 4 of us were really serious about the training and probably spent another 20 hours a week working nights to make sure our programs worked. Back then everything was a batch job and our programs ran after all the production jobs ran, so if you wanted more than 1 run a day, you worked nights. At the end of 6 months, I lucked out and was selected to work in operating systems. By the end of 2 years, I would say I was way ahead of someone who had a 4-year degree in IT and a little behind someone who had a degree in computer science.

What that tells me is quality computer people could easily be developed in 2-4 years. What they really want is high IQ's on the cheap. They want to go to countries like China and India and steal their best and brightest. And when they steal them from China, they likely are importing a spy.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> We simply produce too few STEM graduates
> 
> View attachment 97554


Apprenticeship programs are good for employers wanting to train STEM workers. 
It's about incentive. 
I have some college education in computer science but decided it isn't the direction I want to go. My major is still in science but agricultute related. You couldn't pay me enough to sit around at a desk all day writing code or algorithms. Again, incentive on the part of employers is where it's at. It isn't the fault of students that the field is unattractive to them. Employers need to make it attractive.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> That's a bunch of BS. Back in 1976, I was hired by the Army for an intern program to become a Computer Analyst, because universities weren't turning them out fast enough. We went through 40 hours/week training for 6 months and then 1 1/2 years of on-the-job training, which simply meant you started working without any more training.
> 
> Three or 4 of us were really serious about the training and probably spent another 20 hours a week working nights to make sure our programs worked. Back then everything was a batch job and our programs ran after all the production jobs ran, so if you wanted more than 1 run a day, you worked nights. At the end of 6 months, I lucked out and was selected to work in operating systems. By the end of 2 years, I would say I was way ahead of someone who had a 4-year degree in IT and a little behind someone who had a degree in computer science.
> 
> What that tells me is quality computer people could easily be developed in 2-4 years. What they really want is high IQ's on the cheap. They want to go to countries like China and India and steal their best and brightest. And when they steal them from China, they likely are importing a spy.


In my 30+ year IT career I have never seen high end IT workers come from the military. They are always university graduates. 

There are some lower level and mid level IT works from the military, but not in the upper end.

According to Glassdoor
H1B visa workers earn on average about 2.8 percent more than comparable U.S. workers, that’s not the case in every job. H1B workers earn more that U.S. workers in about half of the jobs we examined, but in many cases they earn less, while in others they earn about the same.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It does not help that the immigration policy in the US during the last 4 years also pushed those highly educated students from other countries who went to graduate school in the US, to immigrate to other countries.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> Apprenticeship programs are good for employers wanting to train STEM workers.
> It's about incentive.
> I have some college education in computer science but decided it isn't the direction I want to go. My major is still in science but agricultute related. You couldn't pay me enough to sit around at a desk all day writing code or algorithms. Again, incentive on the part of employers is where it's at. It isn't the fault of students that the field is unattractive to them. Employers need to make it attractive.


High tech pay is very high.

According to the BLS
The median annual wage for computer and information technology occupations was $91,250 in May 2020, which was higher than the median annual wage for all occupations of $41,950.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> It does not help that the immigration policy in the US during the last 4 years also pushed those highly educated students from other countries who went to graduate school in the US, to immigrate to other countries.


You always gotta take your BS shots

There have been no changes to the H1B Quota Cap since 2004. If we were to put in a table and graph, this is how it would look. 








H1B Visa Total Cap Stats from FY 1990 to 2023


History of the H1B Quota Caps starting from 1990 until latest year. How are they split up, how did they change over the years.




redbus2us.com


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> High tech pay is very high.
> 
> According to the BLS
> The median annual wage for computer and information technology occupations was $91,250 in May 2020, which was higher than the median annual wage for all occupations of $41,950.


It doesn't change the fact that people don't seem very interested in the field. So, how do you make it interesting? 

I'd rather make mediocre income at a job that I find interesting than make good money at a high stress job that doesn't particularly appeal to me. Money isn't everything


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> You always gotta take your BS shots
> 
> There have been no changes to the H1B Quota Cap since 2004. If we were to put in a table and graph, this is how it would look.
> 
> ...


You should do some more investigating before you call crap on my post.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> It doesn't change the fact that people don't seem very interested in the field. So, how do you make it interesting?
> 
> I'd rather make mediocre income at a job that I find interesting than make good money at a high stress job that doesn't particularly appeal to me. Money isn't everything


I am not arguing that the occupation itself might not appeal to people in the US. For some reason it appeals to many other countries. No doubt high finance might look better than high tech.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> You should do some more investigating before you call crap on my post.


You still spout crap. Give me data to back up your claim. I gave you data, reply in kind.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> I am not arguing that the occupation itself might not appeal to people in the US. For some reason it appeals to many other countries. No doubt high finance might look better than high tech.


This makes sense. For immigrants, the money aspect might hold more weight than it does to those of us in the US. They may well care less what the job looks like if the money is good. Or, maybe for some cultural or personal reasons, that kind of work actually DOES appeal to them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> This makes sense. For immigrants, the money aspect might hold more weight than it does to those of us in the US. They may well care less what the job looks like if the money is good. Or, maybe for some cultural or personal reasons, that kind of work actually DOES appeal to them.


You seem to think the job does not appeal to most Americans because it did not appeal to you.

Like I said, I worked in IT for over 30 years. I loved it. I worked with Indians, Chinese and all kinds of people although most of them were American white people, fairly evenly split male/female. Also, like I said, both of my kids went into tech, at my urging them to do otherwise.

In all my years I saw all types attracted to IT. Normally, like yourself, college weeds out the ones that don't like it.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> You seem to think the job does not appeal to most Americans because it did not appeal to you.
> 
> Like I said, I worked in IT for over 30 years. I loved it. I worked with Indians, Chinese and all kinds of people although most of them were American white people, fairly evenly split male/female. Also, like I said, both of my kids went into tech, at my urging them to do otherwise.
> 
> In all my years I saw all types attracted to IT. Normally, like yourself, college weeds out the ones that don't like it.


So back to your original post: how exactly does this point to a failure in the education system?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> So back to your original post: how exactly does this point to a failure in the education system?





HDRider said:


> We simply produce too few STEM graduates


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> You still spout crap. Give me data to back up your claim. I gave you data, reply in kind.


Okay but don't blame me if this thread gets tossed.









Trump Suspends Visas Allowing Hundreds of Thousands of Foreigners to Work in the U.S. (Published 2020)


The move is fiercely opposed by business leaders, who say it will block their ability to recruit critically needed workers from countries overseas.




www.nytimes.com













Canada Wins, U.S. Loses In Global Fight For High-Tech Workers


If there is a global war for tech talent, right now Canada is winning. And U.S. immigration policies are part of the reason.




www.npr.org













A Shortage In Tech Workers Drives Some U.S. Companies To Canada


Canada's tech industry is booming. At the same time, the Trump administration is making it harder to hire international workers, so U.S. companies are setting up shop north of the border.




www.npr.org





Those links should get you started.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Okay but don't blame me if this thread gets tossed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


None of those show the cap being lowered.

You just supplied propaganda.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> We simply produce too few STEM graduates


We're not trying to. 
STEM gets in the way of woke, communist propaganda. Priorities.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> None of those show the cap being lowered.
> 
> You just supplied propaganda.


But she did it so well. Each one is a Trump hit piece.....as if this is a new problem.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> In my 30+ year IT career I have never seen high end IT workers come from the military. They are always university graduates.
> 
> There are some lower level and mid level IT works from the military, but not in the upper end.
> 
> ...


This was the US Army Computer Systems Command - the primary computer support for the entire Army. Many of these people were the elite of the elite. The programming group was at least 90% civilian. Many of my friends from there left for high-level positions with Treasury, Secret Service, and other government agencies because they were maxed out with the Army.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

The lack of STEM was realized about 5 years ago. They are doing something about it now. It takes a bit of time though. Every college in Texas that I know of has built a STEM program in the last 4 years. I'm sure other states have too.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> None of those show the cap being lowered.
> 
> You just supplied propaganda.


The government put a ban in effect. Yes they did not change the quota but bypassed that in a different way. Not propaganda just fact.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> The government put a ban in effect. Yes they did not change the quota but bypassed that in a different way. Not propaganda just fact.


Show data, not propaganda.

The









is the official source. It says 
he H-1B classification has an annual numerical limit (cap) of 65,000 new statuses/visas each fiscal year. An additional 20,000 petitions filed on behalf of beneficiaries with a master’s degree or higher from a U.S. institution of higher education are exempt from the cap. Additionally, H-1B workers who are petitioned for or employed at an institution of higher education or its affiliated or related nonprofit entities, a nonprofit research organization or a government research organization are not subject to this numerical cap. 








H-1B Specialty Occupations, DOD Cooperative Research and Development Project Workers, and Fashion Models


Alert: For all H-1B and H-1B1 petitions received on or after April 1, 2022, USCIS



www.uscis.gov





Just like I said before


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

US H1B visa suspension expires, students free to apply


Now that the H1B visa is active once more, the US can begin restoring its pipeline of skilled foreign workers.




www.studyinternational.com





H1B visa hopefuls can breathe a sigh of relief — former President Donald Trump’s executive order banning the visa has expired on March 31, 2021. The expiration means that international students no longer have to wait for President Joe Biden to reverse the order. In fact, sources close to the president say he opted not to renew the suspension in order to restore the pipeline of skilled foreign workers.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

It doesn't change what I said before. Employers can jolly well educate interested people. Not enough graduates in a field is not an educational failure, it just mean that the field sucks.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> it just mean that the field sucks.


And I say it is a thrill a minute


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

College can easily be done in 2 1/2 years. The universities won't set it up that way because if they can keep students there for 4 or 5 years they make more money. 

If we really have a shortage, what I would do is structure college like a business. Students show up at 9 am and stay until 5 pm, 5 days a week. A semester class is completed in 2 weeks. Students complete 20-22 courses a year and complete their degree in 2 years.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> College can easily be done in 2 1/2 years. The universities won't set it up that way because if they can keep students there for 4 or 5 years they make more money.
> 
> If we really have a shortage, what I would do is structure college like a business. Students show up at 9 am and stay until 5 pm, 5 days a week. A semester class is completed in 2 weeks. Students complete 20-22 courses a year and complete their degree in 2 years.


Universities are a business. They milk it. It took my daughter 5 years just because of the way the semesters were structured.

Sadly, colleges are now having to teach remedial courses that should have been mastered in HS


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Universities are a business. They milk it. It took my daughter 5 years just because of the way the semesters were structured.
> 
> Sadly, colleges are now having to teach remedial courses that should have been mastered in HS


But right now universities are in financial trouble with enrollments down. It seems to me a few enterprising presidents might be open to trying something like this for their stem programs and steal students from other universities. I've always thought it would be a great platform for someone to run for governor on. Get your degree in 2 years for 25% savings in tuition.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

RJ2019 said:


> That doesn't sound like a lack of talent, it sounds more like a lack of willingness of employers to: a)attract talent or b)train their own talent. Employers might just have to step up their game a little.


Part of the problem is the people available to train. Due to the poor parenting of many parents and the incredible poor performance of many of out government schools it takes a lot to get many of the available potential employees up to speed. That is if you can get them to show up. Do to a variety of factors its not a surprise so many of our industries are using oversea sources. 

Was listing to a NPR program yesterday afternoon and they were talking about Chinese education. A couple of the highlights that I remember were KINDER GARDEN children getting 2 to 3 hours of after school special teaching. 

Grade school and Jr grade school students routinely have after school tutors. English and math seemed to be the common subjects. Typical family, $15,000 US money per year per child for just the access to a tutor. 

Only 60 percent of the jr grade school kids are allowed into high school. Based on their grades. 

Here in the USA trying to obtain such standards does not seem to be even thought about. I am self employed in the building trades. I realize the typical employee is not engineer material. But many cannot manage to reliably handle basic math. Many have very low ability to comprehend the instructions on a can of paint or glue.


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

You know, when I was still in the working world one company sent me to DC to be trained in a new computer system. Another company flew me down to Atlanta to learn another computer system.

Companies no longer put that kind of financial capital into their employees, they keep all the money at the top and expect whoever works for them to figure out for themselves how their systems work.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

My son is a lead software engineer working at a semi-startup in the S.F. Bay area. His company went to hiring people based on practical application testing and practical interviewing directly with the department they'd be working for (at least with the engineers, I think some of the other jobs they do require degrees) a couple of years ago. College degree not required, just ability to do the work. He still says most of their applicants are college graduates with CS degrees, but thinks that will change in the near future.

He and I had had a conversation awhile ago after another relative who is a teacher showed him the common core math she was being required to teach. He thinks it's only going to get worse for STEM fields when those kids come of age for higher math required in those fields.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> My son is a lead software engineer working at a semi-startup in the S.F. Bay area. His company went to hiring people based on practical application testing and practical interviewing directly with the department they'd be working for (at least with the engineers, I think some of the other jobs they do require degrees) a couple of years ago. College degree not required, just ability to do the work. He still says most of their applicants are college graduates with CS degrees, but thinks that will change in the near future.
> 
> He and I had had a conversation awhile ago after another relative who is a teacher showed him the common core math she was being required to teach. He thinks it's only going to get worse for STEM fields when those kids come of age for higher math required in those fields.


You are making the point I just tried to make in the thread I just posted. We have been programmed to think college is the only path to good employment.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> You are making the point I just tried to make in the thread I just posted. We have been programmed to think college is the only path to good employment.


I agree. Although we did do encourage and support that kid going to college because he had a life plan set out and college made sense for what he wanted to do.

I do think college or something like it is helpful/necessary for certain jobs, especially highly technical jobs or medical type jobs, but I also agree that no one really needs to spend four years plus getting a degree in women's studies or English literature unless it's just for the joy of learning. Being judgemental there too and saying I think there are better ways to learn liberal arts information than college as well (after having sat through enough useless and boring lectures on my own way to a B.F.A.). Want fries with that?


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

robin416 said:


> You know, when I was still in the working world one company sent me to DC to be trained in a new computer system. Another company flew me down to Atlanta to learn another computer system.
> 
> Companies no longer put that kind of financial capital into their employees, they keep all the money at the top and expect whoever works for them to figure out for themselves how their systems work.


This was exactly my point. Incentive does a lot for gaining and retaining employees, and there is no reason employers can't train people. One would think these specialized fields require specialized training as opposed to some one size fits all college major.
And, for whatever it's worth, STEM embraces a whole bunch of college majors so maybe low STEM grad rates aren't really the problem here.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

My training company was able to give college credit for Novell certified network engineer (CNE) courses. There was a partnership with Pima Community College in AZ where a student could complete the course at our facility, pass the online exam, and pay a fee to Pima to get college credits from them with a transcript they could use at other colleges. I remember there were other colleges that would give credit for CNE courses if you enrolled. I think a student could earn up to about 20 credits through the courses we offered.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

robin416 said:


> You know, when I was still in the working world one company sent me to DC to be trained in a new computer system. Another company flew me down to Atlanta to learn another computer system.
> 
> Companies no longer put that kind of financial capital into their employees, they keep all the money at the top and expect whoever works for them to figure out for themselves how their systems work.


I think the main reason is technology doesn't change that much anymore. For example, when Windows 95 first came out, a lot of people needed training. As newer versions of Windows came out, there usually wasn't a need for training. I sold my training company in 2002 because the demand for training had dropped over 50%. That was before online training had gotten big, which I saw was going to shrink the demand for classroom training even more.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

RJ2019 said:


> That doesn't sound like a lack of talent, it sounds more like a lack of willingness of employers to: a)attract talent or b)train their own talent. Employers might just have to step up their game a little.


Or we could take down Trumps wall and let the highly skilled workers come and fill those jobs.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Evons hubby said:


> Or we could take down Trumps wall and let the highly skilled workers come and fill those jobs.


Why would you want Google and Facebook to have more engineers? Haven't they done more than enough damage with the staff they have?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Sadly, colleges are now having to teach remedial courses that should have been mastered in HS


Hey, they may suck at math but at least they can relate to it on a cultural level. There's someone here who will tell you that's important.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Or we could take down Trumps wall and let the highly skilled workers come and fill those jobs.


Pretty lofty description of drug cartels and human traffickers. But rest assured, uncle Joe won't let anything Trump did get in their way.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Insult deleted


The continued decline in performance of public "schools" tells me everything I need to know about their methods.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I would argue that U.S. colleges are not turning out skilled technology workers. Do kids get a degree in Computer Technology? Yes. Are the technologies taught in our higher education system current with demands and trends in the market place? No! A report from the White House predicted that 1.4 million computer science-related jobs available—and only about 400,000 computer science graduates *who have the skills necessary to fill them*. The most popular degree to get in the U.S. is n Business or Management. EVERYONE of them believes with their little 4 year degree, they would be running the company they are interviewing with not starting at the ground level and working their way up. Computer science degrees rank far lower popularity. I find that surprising since all I see is kids with their faces stuck in their technology (phones) all of the time. But getting a degree which requires Math and Science means work. Our youth isn't cut out for work.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Saying that though my DH has a degree in Computer Engineering. The problem is he spends most of his days in meetings. He was just laminating to me today how he misses coding things. The problem is his company does not want him coding because it is cheaper to have people in India do all the coding and him managing them. In an all staff meeting it was mentioned by an employee that maybe they should try to hire more here in the US ...nope basically too expensive. BTW a lot of the people on his team are here on temp Visa or they have green cards.

They will even fly the person over from India to be trained here for several months all expense paid. Knowing that most of people from India usually only stay in a position for about two years before they move on and up.(Before Covid)


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Insult deleted


I was going to say I found his post one of the most enlightened in the thread.

he said a lot with an ecconomy of words.

it may have gone over some heads.

Paul


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> College can easily be done in 2 1/2 years. The universities won't set it up that way because if they can keep students there for 4 or 5 years they make more money.


That could be true for some majors, but in physical science and engineering it can't happen. Heck, it takes 2 years just to get the math they'll need.

Requirements could be trimmed somewhat. It seemed to me that I was taking a lot of english, history, and life science courses that were difficult to justify for a chemistry degree. Interestingly, the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes went to college to get the knowledge be needed, but didn't pursue a degree. He left when he learned what he needed to know. Maybe he was ahead of his time.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> My training company was able to give college credit for Novell certified network engineer (CNE) courses.


Oh jeesh, Novell NetWare was awful! Before Linux I had to fool with it. I'll never understand why they didn't fashion Novell to UNIX, as Linux did. They wanted to create their own convoluted proprietary operating system, and they succeeded. They commanded the PC server market for about 10 years, but by the mid 1990s Novell NetWare was being abandoned in favor of Linux. I say good riddance! I haven't seen a NetWare server for at least 25 years.

Networking protocols stayed pretty much the same as Novell with Linux and Windows, but that wasn't Novell's anyway.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Oh jeesh, Novell NetWare was awful! Before Linux I had to fool with it. I'll never understand why they didn't fashion Novell to UNIX, as Linux did. They wanted to create their own convoluted proprietary operating system, and they succeeded. They commanded the PC server market for about 10 years, but by the mid 1990s Novell NetWare was being abandoned in favor of Linux. I say good riddance! I haven't seen a NetWare server for at least 25 years.
> 
> Networking protocols stayed pretty much the same as Novell with Linux and Windows, but that wasn't Novell's anyway.


It wasn't Unix/Linux that did Novell in. Microsoft developed Windows Server that worked like Windows 95 minimizing the learning curve for someone to manage a Microsoft network. They priced it to destroy Novell like Microsoft had done to many companies before.

Eric Schmidt was President of Novell at the time this happened. Novell had ported the server to Linux, but it was too late to save the company. They were offering Linux both as a desktop and as a server. Schmidt did learn his lesson well because he constantly put the screw to Microsft when he was CEO of Google.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Interesting on the stem fields and lack of success. We can blame many for the failures of others but I find my experience with children is the parents are responsible for lighting and maintaining stem interest in the child.
3 kids, 2 girls, 1 boy. Oldest is 32. All are stem field graduates, well mostly. Oldest daughter graduated Michigan State University with doctor of osteopathic medicine. Starts internal med residency in July.
Son, materials engineer, just started new job in the research and development department with adhesives. Youngest daughter starts in August her registered nurse program, got in on a honors pass. She is great at math, don’t let anyone say girls can’t do science. Every single one of them credit me with that interest in stem. I provided tools, reference material, and started many discussion on a subject. They all agree that without that interest that I put forward in stem while they were young made the difference. Too many times they’re asked about some obscure item and realize the knowledgeable in the matter. All the time spent on aquariums running water tests taught verify quality, math skills. It was the same in the garage whether we were doing woodworking or cars. The parents spark the interest and feeds those desires. Education should polish the foundation that the parents built. It starts with me with my children. If their friends want to come along all the better. Microscopes, telescopes, electronics bench, mechanical assemblies, fabrication it didn’t matter. They all learned and they realized how many subjects crossed over. And I got a lot of great times working and teaching them about it. I believe the lessons I gave on education and on the subject matters will continue through generations. You have kids, you start their interests. If benign neglect is your effort in the beginning. Then you reap what you sow. Want better, do better!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> That could be true for some majors, but in physical science and engineering it can't happen. Heck, it takes 2 years just to get the math they'll need.
> 
> Requirements could be trimmed somewhat. It seemed to me that I was taking a lot of english, history, and life science courses that were difficult to justify for a chemistry degree. Interestingly, the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes went to college to get the knowledge be needed, but didn't pursue a degree. He left when he learned what he needed to know. Maybe he was ahead of his time.


Most computer jobs don't require engineering or math. Those that do require varying degrees of it. One thing that could be done, and is the best way to teach, is to integrate all the courses into one program. For example, the students are given a problem to solve. To solve the problem they have to learn certain math, engineering, and programming skills to solve it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

First cleanup.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> It wasn't Unix/Linux that did Novell in. Microsoft developed Windows Server that worked like Windows 95 minimizing the learning curve for someone to manage a Microsoft network. They priced it to destroy Novell like Microsoft had done to many companies before.


I tried a Windows server during the late 1990s (NT Server 4.0) but didn't find the stability I needed. As much as I hated to, I switched to Linux. The learning curve was much steeper than with Windows, but I had some familiarity with UNIX commands dating back to around 1980. But I was only a system user, not the console operator.

The problem with Windows servers is that they couldn't be installed without the graphical interface. That wasn't introduced until Windows Server 2008. By then a lot of users (myself included) were Linux operators with no desire to take a chance on a Windows server. Linux servers commonly use an application called Samba, which is fully compliant with sharing files to Windows users.

There has been a recent upheaval in the CentOS operating system, which has caused a major disruption in my life. CentOS will no longer be a stable RHEL clone. Many of the CentOS developers have jumped ship to join the Rocky Linux project, creating a product similar to what CentOS used to be. Hopefully life will return to normal in the next few months. There is a release candidate (a RHEL 8.4 clone) available for download, but I'll be waiting for the stable release. It shouldn't be more than a month or so.






Rocky Linux


Rocky Linux is an open enterprise Operating System designed to be 100% bug-for-bug compatible with Enterprise Linux.




rockylinux.org


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Most computer jobs don't require engineering or math. Those that do require varying degrees of it. One thing that could be done, and is the best way to teach, is to integrate all the courses into one program. For example, the students are given a problem to solve. To solve the problem they have to learn certain math, engineering, and programming skills to solve it.


I just don't see how solving example problems is going to provide a deep understanding of physics


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> I tried a Windows server during the late 1990s (NT Server 4.0) but didn't find the stability I needed. As much as I hated to, I switched to Linux. The learning curve was much steeper than with Windows, but I had some familiarity with UNIX commands dating back to around 1980. But I was only a system user, not the console operator.
> 
> The problem with Windows servers is that they couldn't be installed without the graphical interface. That wasn't introduced until Windows Server 2008. By then a lot of users (myself included) were Linux operators with no desire to take a chance on a Windows server. Linux servers commonly use an application called Samba, which is fully compliant with sharing files to Windows users.
> 
> ...


Netware was a much better server and easier to administer than Windows NT. It was when Microsft went to Windows 2000 server that it killed Netware. Netware had a directory service sitting on top of it that never lived up to its potential or it might have been able to fight Microsoft off.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> I just don't see how solving example problems is going to provide a deep understanding of physics


Because over the 2 years they keep getting more challenging problems to solve.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> I just don't see how solving example problems is going to provide a deep understanding of physics


Unless you're a physicist, why would you need a "deep" understanding?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Another factor is that the standard US 12 year education and High School degree isn't worth a hoot anymore. Many four year college degrees don't turn out much better educated kids that high schools did 40 years ago.

In elementary, middle and high school you used to be forced to learn basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills or you would not advance to the next grade. No kids get held back of flunked anymore, they just move them through the system. The end result is 18 year old kids that aren't much good to employers without a bunch more training.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Netware was a much better server and easier to administer than Windows NT. It was when Microsft went to Windows 2000 server that it killed Netware. Netware had a directory service sitting on top of it that never lived up to its potential or it might have been able to fight Microsoft off.


By 2000 I was totally entrenched in Linux and hadn't seen a NetWare server for several years. That was in the days before VPS accounts were common, so I had to co-locate my machines in data centers, requiring remote administration. Linux is a good operating system for remote administration

Where I saw potential for a Windows server was in schools, where a teacher could be coerced into getting up to speed on a Windows server and be the admin. That would be especially true for small school systems that didn't have the budget to hire a dedicated server admin. It would have been a serious imposition to ask a full time teacher to come up to speed on Linux, or even NetWare.

I should add that Linux isn't as bad as it might seem. There is a server administration graphic overlay called webmin that makes a lot of tasks easy (point & click). You can't stay off the command line 100%, but most routine admin tasks can be done using webmin.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Unless you're a physicist, why would you need a "deep" understanding?


Because physics raises its ugly head in a lot of other disciplines. It goes without saying that it's common in engineering, since that's applied physics by definition. But you'll also find that chemists have a deep understanding of physics.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> By 2000 I was totally entrenched in Linux and hadn't seen a NetWare server for several years. That was in the days before VPS accounts were common, so I had to co-locate my machines in data centers, requiring remote administration.
> 
> Where I saw potential for a Windows server was on schools, where a teacher could be coerced into getting up to speed on a Windows server and be the admin. That would be especially true for small school systems that didn't have the budget to hire a dedicated server admin. It would have been a serious imposition to ask a full time teacher to come up to speed on Linux, or even NetWare.
> 
> I should add that Linux isn't as bad as it might seem. There is a server administration graphic overlay called webmin that makes a lot of tasks easy (point & click). You can't stay off the command line 100%, but most routine admin tasks can be done using webmin.


I worked on mainframes, then minis, back to mainframes and PCs, then networking, then Netware, then NT and Windows 200 Server, then I tried to learn Linux and I had a severe block about learning it. I think the reason is things have to logically make sense to me and Linux was based more on memorization than logic. I have trouble with most apps built on memorization. I think that's a problem for big tech in that they hire geniuses to design and develop apps for normal people.

Maybe that's the solution. Hire average Americans to test apps developed by big tech.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Because physics raises its ugly head in a lot of other disciplines. It goes without saying that it's common in engineering, since that's applied physics by definition. But you'll also find that chemists have a deep understanding of physics.


I'm not knocking physics. I know what it's for. I'm expanding on what @MoonRiver suggests about a new way to educate. If you don't need a deep dive into physics then you shouldn't have to take it. If you do need it then you should.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I know in the district where my kids went to school, students were held down to the lowest level. Students that had mastered the material were forced to set through it again and again until everyone got it. 

My daughter was one that didn't get it. She was threatened with detention if her work was not complete and a certain percentage was correct. Detention involved setting quietly in a room with a bunch of other students. No talking allowed. I still don't understand how that was supposed to help her become a better reader or understand the decimal system.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Danaus29 said:


> I know in the district where my kids went to school, students were held down to the lowest level. Students that had mastered the material were forced to set through it again and again until everyone got it.
> 
> My daughter was one that didn't get it. She was threatened with detention if her work was not complete and a certain percentage was correct. Detention involved setting quietly in a room with a bunch of other students. No talking allowed. I still don't understand how that was supposed to help her become a better reader or understand the decimal system.


Are you familiar with Khan academy? Anyone can use it for free, but they also partner with schools.

It reverses school. At night kids login to Khan Academy for the lecture. Then at school, they do the exercises with the teacher there to help students who need help. The exercises are built so the students have to get all the answers right before they can move on. They can repeat an exercise numerous times and go back and review the information. The teacher has a monitor so she can see the scores of the kids and how many times they have attempted an exercise, and using that determine who needs help.

From all reports I have seen, both the students and the teachers like the system. It allows kids to work at their own pace. Getting ahead or falling behind doesn't really affect the class. They also earn badges for every lesson they master. It's also good for remedial learning.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I worked on mainframes, then minis, back to mainframes and PCs, then networking, then Netware, then NT and Windows 200 Server, then I tried to learn Linux and I had a severe block about learning it. I think the reason is things have to logically make sense to me and Linux was based more on memorization than logic. I have trouble with most apps built on memorization. I think that's a problem for big tech in that they hire geniuses to design and develop apps for normal people.
> 
> Maybe that's the solution. Hire average Americans to test apps developed by big tech.


Linux is based on UNIX, which you should have already been familiar with from the mainframe & minis. The commands are pretty much the same. Even a lot of the applications are the same. For example, gedit was a common open source text editor for Linux, and when Linux came out the gedit development team ported to Linux.

I admit that there is a lot to remember in Linux, but that's where webmin comes in.


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> I know in the district where my kids went to school, students were held down to the lowest level. Students that had mastered the material were forced to set through it again and again until everyone got it.
> 
> My daughter was one that didn't get it. She was threatened with detention if her work was not complete and a certain percentage was correct. Detention involved setting quietly in a room with a bunch of other students. No talking allowed. I still don't understand how that was supposed to help her become a better reader or understand the decimal system.


This problem could be the instructor. When I was in a college Algebra class I was struggling. A doc friend said something at the time when he was helping me that had a bell go off. From there I got A's in the class. Too many years have passed but from that day on I approached Algebra differently and truly enjoyed it.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Linux is based on UNIX, which you should have already been familiar with from the mainframe & minis. The commands are pretty much the same. Even a lot of the applications are the same. For example, gedit was a common open source text editor for Linux, and when Linux came out the gedit development team ported to Linux.
> 
> I admit that there is a lot to remember in Linux, but that's where webmin comes in.


IBM mainframe, Honeywell mini's.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

MoonRiver, 20 years ago when my daughter needed the help, there was no Khan academy. I ended up reading her Social Studies/History book and just giving her the answers. I got a D in her class.


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> MoonRiver, 20 years ago when my daughter needed the help, there was no Khan academy. I ended up reading her Social Studies/History book and just giving her the answers. I got a D in her class.


Well, it wasn't an F.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Fishindude said:


> Another factor is that the standard US 12 year education and High School degree isn't worth a hoot anymore. Many four year college degrees don't turn out much better educated kids that high schools did 40 years ago.
> 
> In elementary, middle and high school you used to be forced to learn basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills or you would not advance to the next grade. No kids get held back of flunked anymore, they just move them through the system. The end result is 18 year old kids that aren't much good to employers without a bunch more training.


Not true. Students do indeed get retained if the parents agree. However, the research, and there is plenty of it, does not show that retention is effective in helping students catch up. What is effective is exploring why a student is behind and designing interventions to help them close the gap.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not true. Students do indeed get retained if the parents agree. However, the research, and there is plenty of it, does not show that retention is effective in helping students catch up. What is effective is exploring why a student is behind and designing interventions to help them close the gap.


I've always thought an interesting strategy to try would be to fire the teacher if any students got an F. It would have to be standardized in some way so a teacher couldn't pass a student that hadn't earned it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I've always thought an interesting strategy to try would be to fire the teacher if any students got an F. It would have to be standardized in some way so a teacher couldn't pass a student that hadn't earned it.


So if the student doesn't attend school on a regular basis, it's the teacher's fault? How about if the kid doesn't do the work? How about if the teacher recommends interventions and the parents say no? How about if the student suffers from DGD (doesn't give a darn) disease? How about if the teacher suspects a disability and the parents refuse the evaluation? How about if the teacher recommends retention and the parents say no? I've always thought it interesting that everyone is so quick to blame the teacher when there are many factors that are outside the teacher's control.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Oh boy


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

MoonRiver said:


> I think the main reason is technology doesn't change that much anymore. For example, when Windows 95 first came out, a lot of people needed training. As newer versions of Windows came out, there usually wasn't a need for training. I sold my training company in 2002 because the demand for training had dropped over 50%. That was before online training had gotten big, which I saw was going to shrink the demand for classroom training even more.


Online degrees available in just about every field. Really increased over the past 10 years. You can get a Phd with half online and half in school Big change taking place in educational fields before Virus came. I got Online Bachelor degrees in 5 engineering fields. Also got higher degrees in the Design field without going to any college in person. My company paid for all my education. The field of Technology in many fields is changing so fast that college degrees online is common today. There is a shortage of engineers and other tech fields because the wages don't keep up with the demand. Many good paying jobs are offered in other counties with much higher wage and benefits than in the U.S. Big changes is coming as far as wages in the U.S. When the U.S. is number 17 in the pay 
for these fields the people will go with who pays the best with the best retirement and benefit plans/
,,,Free medical free educational training higher wages, etc. When i worked i got all these benefits. Retirement is a big deal for long term workers. I have 4 retirement income from 4 different places. One from oil company, One from Military, One from Immigration dept. One from State of Texas for work i did there for 10 years.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> So if the student doesn't attend school on a regular basis, it's the teacher's fault? How about if the kid doesn't do the work? How about if the teacher recommends interventions and the parents say no? How about if the student suffers from DGD (doesn't give a darn) disease? How about if the teacher suspects a disability and the parents refuse the evaluation? How about if the teacher recommends retention and the parents say no? I've always thought it interesting that everyone is so quick to blame the teacher when there are many factors that are outside the teacher's control.


That's the school system's fault. I'm saying if the school system does its job and a student fails, I first look to the teacher. If it gets to the end of the year and a student fails, the school and the teacher failed that student.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not true. Students do indeed get retained if the parents agree. However, the research, and there is plenty of it, does not show that retention is effective in helping students catch up. What is effective is exploring why a student is behind and designing interventions to help them close the gap.


I’m going with poor teachers, firing them would solve the problem.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

IMO, if one student in the class struggles or fails, the student might have a problem. If 3 or more students struggle or fail, the problem might be the teacher. If half the class is struggling or failing, the teacher is the problem.

In my high school algebra class over half the students were failing, until the regular teacher went on medical leave.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> That's the school system's fault. I'm saying if the school system does its job and a student fails, I first look to the teacher. If it gets to the end of the year and a student fails, the school and the teacher failed that student.


None of the things I listed are the school's fault nor the teacher's fault. It's interesting that you declare the parent and the student to have no accountability and blame the school & the teacher for all. Just for curiosity's sake, exactly how is it the school's fault if you as a parent can't be bothered to get your kid to school?

I wonder if you hold other professions to the same standard of 100% results. If a doctor doesn't cure 100% of all diseases, should he or she be fired? After all, if the doctor was doing the job correctly, his or her patients would be 100% healthy regardless if the patient followed the doctor's advice. It's all on the doc, the patient bears no accountability. How about lawyers? If they're doing the job correctly, they would win every case. Looks like they're not getting the job done. Better fire them all. How about the police? If they're doing the job correctly, there would be no crime. Oops, looks like they're failing. Better fire them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> None of the things I listed are the school's fault nor the teacher's fault. It's interesting that you declare the parent and the student to have no accountability and blame the school & the teacher for all. Just for curiosity's sake, exactly how is it the school's fault if you as a parent can't be bothered to get your kid to school?
> 
> I wonder if you hold other professions to the same standard of 100% results. If a doctor doesn't cure 100% of all diseases, should he or she be fired? After all, if the doctor was doing the job correctly, his or her patients would be 100% healthy regardless if the patient followed the doctor's advice. It's all on the doc, the patient bears no accountability. How about lawyers? If they're doing the job correctly, they would win every case. Looks like they're not getting the job done. Better fire them all. How about the police? If they're doing the job correctly, there would be no crime. Oops, looks like they're failing. Better fire them.


I'm just not big on excuses.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> None of the things I listed are the school's fault nor the teacher's fault. It's interesting that you declare the parent and the student to have no accountability and blame the school & the teacher for all. Just for curiosity's sake, exactly how is it the school's fault if you as a parent can't be bothered to get your kid to school?
> 
> I wonder if you hold other professions to the same standard of 100% results. If a doctor doesn't cure 100% of all diseases, should he or she be fired? After all, if the doctor was doing the job correctly, his or her patients would be 100% healthy regardless if the patient followed the doctor's advice. It's all on the doc, the patient bears no accountability. How about lawyers? If they're doing the job correctly, they would win every case. Looks like they're not getting the job done. Better fire them all. How about the police? If they're doing the job correctly, there would be no crime. Oops, looks like they're failing. Better fire them.


No, the Doctor and the Lawyer don't have to be fired. In those cases, you can take your money elsewhere and find a better Doctor or Lawyer.
The police are considered a public service and protected by Unions and paid for with your tax dollars, so there isn't much of a say in that.
Oops, just ran over some irony in the road!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm just not big on excuses.


Kids get one shot in school, unless you are my mother and decide to go back late in life.
The system gets a do over each new year.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> That could be true for some majors, but in physical science and engineering it can't happen. Heck, it takes 2 years just to get the math they'll need.
> 
> Requirements could be trimmed somewhat. It seemed to me that I was taking a lot of english, history, and life science courses that were difficult to justify for a chemistry degree. Interestingly, the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes went to college to get the knowledge be needed, but didn't pursue a degree. He left when he learned what he needed to know. Maybe he was ahead of his time.


I agree.
John D Rockefeller had three months of college. Bookkeeping, I think. He seemed to do ok for himself.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> No, the Doctor and the Lawyer don't have to be fired. In those cases, *you can take your money elsewhere and find a better Doctor or Lawyer.*
> The police are considered a public service and protected by Unions and paid for with your tax dollars, so there isn't much of a say in that.
> Oops, just ran over some irony in the road!


The goal of school choice is to do the same for public education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> No, the Doctor and the Lawyer don't have to be fired. In those cases, you can take your money elsewhere and find a better Doctor or Lawyer.
> The police are considered a public service and protected by Unions and paid for with your tax dollars, so there isn't much of a say in that.
> Oops, just ran over some irony in the road!


That's a terrible attempt at a dodge. Come on, where's the outcry for 100% results for doctors, lawyers and police? Surely, if you have the expectation that every teacher must perform at 100%, you must have the same expectation for every other profession. 

BTW, you can go find another school as well. Lots of choices available to you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> The goal of school choice is to do the same for public education.


No, the goal of taking tax money for private school is to support the exclusionary and elitist practices of those schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm just not big on excuses.


You're huge on excuses. Still waiting for an explanation of how it is the school's fault if you can't be bothered to get your kid to school.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> You're huge on excuses. Still waiting for an explanation of how it is the school's fault if you can't be bothered to get your kid to school.


It's the law and the school is charged with educating kids. You figure it out.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> It's the law and the school is charged with educating kids. You figure it out.


It’s anyone’s fault... except the teachers.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> That's a terrible attempt at a dodge. Come on, where's the outcry for 100% results for doctors, lawyers and police? Surely, if you have the expectation that every teacher must perform at 100%, you must have the same expectation for every other profession.
> 
> BTW, you can go find another school as well. Lots of choices available to you.


I don’t expect every kid to get all a’s.... but I do expect a high school graduate to know the basics.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> It's the law and the school is charged with educating kids. You figure it out.


So, in other words, you've got nothing.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> It’s anyone’s fault... except the teachers.


How exactly is it the teachers' fault if a parent does not ensure their child attends? How is it the teachers' fault if the child does not complete or return homework? Sounds like a parenting problem to me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How exactly is it the teachers' fault if a parent does not ensure their child attends? How is it the teachers' fault if the child does not complete or return homework? Sounds like a parenting problem to me.


Teachers fault... on both counts.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Teachers are hired to teach. Parents are responsible for making sure the child is at school and ready and willing to learn and follow through on doing the work. Looks like it has become easier to blame the teachers instead of being a parent.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Teachers fault... on both counts.


Not even close to being the teachers' fault. Your responsibility to get your kid up and out the door to school. Your responsibility to make sure your kid is doing their homework. Some people obviously don't know that "parent" is also a verb. Apparently you are one of them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, in other words, you've got nothing.


Fifty years ago there were serious consequences to skipping school or misbehaving at school. Schools and teachers did not put up with it.

Now they do. I don't see how anyone but schools and teachers can be blamed.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Fifty years ago there were serious consequences to skipping school or misbehaving at school. Schools and teachers did not put up with it.
> 
> Now they do. I don't see how anyone but schools and teachers can be blamed.


Explain how teachers put up with it? I would love to hear this. I have more than 10 teachers in my family, ranging from elementary school to high school principals. My mother was a teacher for 40 year from the late 60,s on. Were you ever a teacher?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> That's a terrible attempt at a dodge. Come on, where's the outcry for *100% results for doctors,* lawyers and police? Surely, if you have the expectation that every teacher must perform at 100%, you must have the same expectation for every other profession.


Have you seen some the malpractice settlements doctors face?




SLFarmMI said:


> BTW, you can go find another school as well. Lots of choices available to you.


School choice programs can help...where available.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Explain how teachers put up with it? I would love to hear this. I have more than 10 teachers in my family, ranging from elementary school to high school principals. My mother was a teacher for 40 year from the late 60,s on. Were you ever a teacher?


Yes.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not even close to being the teachers' fault. Your responsibility to get your kid up and out the door to school. Your responsibility to make sure your kid is doing their homework. Some people obviously don't know that "parent" is also a verb. Apparently you are one of them.


Nope, our boy had good attendance, did his homework. Teachers failed to do their job and his math grades were horrid. Took me a whole hour to catch him up, simple thing of learning his times tables. From then on his math was fine!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

You cant 100% give the blame to the teachers. Parents have to take some responsibility also.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> You cant 100% give the blame to the teachers. Parents have to take some responsibility also.


Why not? Teachers blame the parents!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

mreynolds said:


> You cant 100% give the blame to the teachers. Parents have to take some responsibility also.


Of course, some parents are a problem. It has always been that way, but we didn't always have the problems in schools that we have today. That is a failure of the educational system in the US. Why is it some schools don't have a major problem while others are a total disaster? Why is it some teachers don't have a problem?

Schools used to teach morality that was based on the morality of our culture. Then, in the not too distant past, education became part of the movement to destroy our collective morality. We could go on and on about all the things the schools have involved themselves in that is not basic education, but we don't need to.

The US public education system is a failure compared to other countries. Our cost per student has no relationship to performance. The education system failed our students during the Covid-19 crisis. Test scores are going in the wrong direction. I don't know of any measure that would show schools today perform better than schools of 20, 30, or 40 years ago.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Evons hubby said:


> Why not? Teachers blame the parents!


And sometimes they are correct.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Of course, some parents are a problem. It has always been that way, but we didn't always have the problems in schools that we have today. That is a failure of the educational system in the US. Why is it some schools don't have a major problem while others are a total disaster? Why is it some teachers don't have a problem?
> 
> Schools used to teach morality that was based on the morality of our culture. Then, in the not too distant past, education became part of the movement to destroy our collective morality. We could go on and on about all the things the schools have involved themselves in that is not basic education, but we don't need to.
> 
> The US public education system is a failure compared to other countries. Our cost per student has no relationship to performance. The education system failed our students during the Covid-19 crisis. Test scores are going in the wrong direction. I don't know of any measure that would show schools today perform better than schools of 20, 30, or 40 years ago.


I agree with that too.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> You cant 100% give the blame to the teachers. Parents have to take some responsibility also.


Shhh, didn't you get the memo? According to these folks, teachers are the only ones who should ever be held accountable for anything.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> Of course, some parents are a problem. It has always been that way, but we didn't always have the problems in schools that we have today. That is a failure of the educational system in the US. Why is it some schools don't have a major problem while others are a total disaster? Why is it some teachers don't have a problem?
> 
> Schools used to teach morality that was based on the morality of our culture. Then, in the not too distant past, education became part of the movement to destroy our collective morality. We could go on and on about all the things the schools have involved themselves in that is not basic education, but we don't need to.
> 
> The US public education system is a failure compared to other countries. Our cost per student has no relationship to performance. The education system failed our students during the Covid-19 crisis. Test scores are going in the wrong direction. I don't know of any measure that would show schools today perform better than schools of 20, 30, or 40 years ago.


First, it is not the job of the schools to teach morality. Never has been. That job belongs to the parents. Nor are schools trying to "destroy our collective morality". 

Second, you are 100% wrong in your statement that the "education system failed our students during the Covid-19 crisis". All over this country, teachers stepped up and revamped their entire way of teaching. They redesigned lessons and materials, they digitized resources, they delivered materials to students, they taught students over the phone when students couldn't get online. And that is just a short list of all the ways teachers went above and beyond during COVID. Most of that was on their time and on their dime btw. 

Third, the "back in the old days, everything was wonderful" refrain is getting old. It also happens to be untrue.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> First, it is not the job of the schools to teach morality. Never has been. That job belongs to the parents. Nor are schools trying to "destroy our collective morality".
> 
> Second, you are 100% wrong in your statement that the "education system failed our students during the Covid-19 crisis". All over this country, teachers stepped up and revamped their entire way of teaching. They redesigned lessons and materials, they digitized resources, they delivered materials to students, they taught students over the phone when students couldn't get online. And that is just a short list of all the ways teachers went above and beyond during COVID. Most of that was on their time and on their dime btw.
> 
> Third, the "back in the old days, everything was wonderful" refrain is getting old. It also happens to be untrue.


Teachers didn't step up and invent anything. Those platforms already existed, and teachers have fought against them for years. At this point in time, brick and mortar schools are obsolete.Covid proved that.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> Teachers didn't step up and invent anything. Those platforms already existed, and teachers have fought against them for years. At this point in time, brick and mortar schools are obsolete.Covid proved that.


You are wrong. Teachers absolutely stepped up and completely redesigned lessons, materials and their entire way of teaching. Who exactly did you think was creating the lessons? Magic fairies? I don't recall anyone from Zoom on the line with me when I was teaching over the phone when students couldn't get online. There wasn't anyone from any "platform" with me scanning in books (on a scanner I had to buy for the purpose with not one cent from the district) so my students would have access to the resources we use in class. 

COVID certainly proved one thing -- the teacher bashers will complain no matter what teachers do.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

As long as High School graduates can't pass a third grade math test, we will never have enough.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Shhh, didn't you get the memo? According to these folks, teachers are the only ones who should ever be held accountable for anything.


It's easier to blame someone else. I have had some really good teachers in my life. I have had some really bad ones. I see the same thing with parents. 

My senior English Lit teacher was drunk by the time I got to her class. Wanna know why I dont like Shakespeare? Pretty sure it was her. It's hard enough for us Americans to talk that old English without slurring. Now imagine it while someone that does. Then I found out my son took the same class with her at the helm. That is why I know there needs to be some improvement and it's past time. 

But I have seen parents do the same or worse.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> First, it is not the job of the schools to teach morality. Never has been. That job belongs to the parents.


This is true also. So why do some schools try under the guise of something else? Or at least it seems that way.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> This is true also. So why do some schools try under the guise of something else? Or at least it seems that way.


Much of what is being taught in schools today is about morality. That is without question.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> First, it is not the job of the schools to teach morality. Never has been. That job belongs to the parents. Nor are schools trying to "destroy our collective morality".


*Religion was a part of daily life at schools *– Christianity as the religion of the majority in the US 50 years ago was a part daily school life. The day would start with a prayer, and students read their Bibles. It is no longer true for most schools. They have all taken religion out of the classroom and have restrictions about it everywhere. The government is so scared of discrimination of any kind, that they forbid everything related to religion on campuses.​​







Surprising Truth About Education: 50 Years Ago and Now | Psychreg


Education today is entering a spectacular and exciting stage.




www.psychreg.org




Talking with my students about ethics and gauging their response served as a wakeup call for me to consider my own role as an educator and just how low character development, ethics, and helping students develop a moral identity have fallen with regard to debate over what schools should teach. The founders of this country, Jessica Lahey wrote in _The Atlantic_, would “likely be horrified by the loss of this goal, as they all cite character education as the way to create an educated and virtuous citizenry.” According to Gallup polling, Lahey added, 90 percent of adults support the teaching in public schools of honesty, acceptance of others, and moral courage, among other character traits. What adults hope occurs in schools, however, is in sharp contrast to observations provided by teens themselves.​








Schools Are Failing To Develop Students With Moral Identities


The pressures of national academic standards have pushed character education out of the classroom.




www.theatlantic.com






> Second, you are 100% wrong in your statement that the "education system failed our students during the Covid-19 crisis". All over this country, teachers stepped up and revamped their entire way of teaching. They redesigned lessons and materials, they digitized resources, they delivered materials to students, they taught students over the phone when students couldn't get online. And that is just a short list of all the ways teachers went above and beyond during COVID. Most of that was on their time and on their dime btw.


*COVID-19: Children From Poorest Households Had Greatest Financial and Education Loss, Highest Risk of Violence at Home*​​*‘A lost generation’: Surge of research reveals students sliding backward, most vulnerable worst affected*​


> Third, the "back in the old days, everything was wonderful" refrain is getting old. It also happens to be untrue.


*The number of high school diplomas* – Only some 30 years ago, US was among the leading countries when it came to the number and quality of high school diplomas. However, according to the Do Something organisation, today the US is only in the 36th place. What happened? And why do we see such a decline in numbers? Modern schools experience many problems with bullying, discrimination, and other issues that cause young people to drop out without ever getting a high school diploma. This is a huge issue that a country should solve on the governmental level. But the truth is that the number of students obtaining a degree of this level is decreasing year on year.​​*Students respected teachers more* – We know how the youth treats teachers these days. Lack of proper bringing up or whatever other reasons for this might be, but they all lead to a significant decrease in respect toward teachers among students. Our generation believes that everyone owes them something. Even when simply collecting information for US history essay topics, we can find tons of examples when young people 50 years ago respected teachers, never doubted their opinion or complained to their parents about them. In fact, the Bored Teachers states that years ago 79 percent of students showed respect toward their teachers compared to 31 per cent today. The same source also mentions that modern parents are more likely to trust their children rather than tutors. This only deepens that gap between younger and older generations at schools.​​I found these and many more in a matter of minutes and they come from both sides of the aisle. I could add another 50 or 100, but I'm guessing it wouldn't matter.​


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are wrong. Teachers absolutely stepped up and completely redesigned lessons, materials and their entire way of teaching. Who exactly did you think was creating the lessons? Magic fairies? I don't recall anyone from Zoom on the line with me when I was teaching over the phone when students couldn't get online. There wasn't anyone from any "platform" with me scanning in books (on a scanner I had to buy for the purpose with not one cent from the district) so my students would have access to the resources we use in class.
> 
> COVID certainly proved one thing -- the teacher bashers will complain no matter what teachers do.


Wrong. You did things that were completely dumb, and unwarranted, to justify your meaningless existence.. All of those things were already available on an online platform. But teachers unions have fought the online learning platforms that exist in the private sector for years, because they know they themselves are obsolete, and they feel threatened. How can dumb people teach anyone anything, except how to be dumb?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> Wrong. You did things that were completely dumb, and unwarranted, to justify your meaningless existence.. All of those things were already available on an online platform. But teachers unions have fought the online learning platforms that exist in the private sector for years, because they know they themselves are obsolete, and they feel threatened. How can dumb people teach anyone anything, except how to be dumb?


And, once again, you are wrong. It's quite the habit with you. As are your angry, hate filled rants.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And, once again, you are wrong. It's quite the habit with you. As are your angry, hate filled rants.


Were you looking into a mirror when you typed that?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> *Religion was a part of daily life at schools *– Christianity as the religion of the majority in the US 50 years ago was a part daily school life. The day would start with a prayer, and students read their Bibles. It is no longer true for most schools. They have all taken religion out of the classroom and have restrictions about it everywhere. The government is so scared of discrimination of any kind, that they forbid everything related to religion on campuses.​​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Religion never properly belonged in the classroom. I wonder if all the folks trying to push religion back into the classroom would be ok if a Muslim teacher was leading his/her Christian students in a Muslim prayer and reading from the Koran at the start of the day. Somehow I doubt it. Let's face it, when they say they want prayer back in school, they mean they want *their* religion and *their* prayer and to heck with anyone else in that classroom. 

If your kids are in school and they have no concept of honesty, respect, acceptance of others, moral courage, etc., that's not the teacher's fault, it's yours. 



MoonRiver said:


> *COVID-19: Children From Poorest Households Had Greatest Financial and Education Loss, Highest Risk of Violence at Home*
> 
> *‘A lost generation’: Surge of research reveals students sliding backward, most vulnerable worst affected*


Interesting how you dodge around the fact that teachers went above and beyond to make the best out of a bad situation.



MoonRiver said:


> *The number of high school diplomas* – Only some 30 years ago, US was among the leading countries when it came to the number and quality of high school diplomas. However, according to the Do Something organisation, today the US is only in the 36th place. What happened? And why do we see such a decline in numbers? Modern schools experience many problems with bullying, discrimination, and other issues that cause young people to drop out without ever getting a high school diploma. This is a huge issue that a country should solve on the governmental level. But the truth is that the number of students obtaining a degree of this level is decreasing year on year.


Seems the US Census disputes your opinion piece.











MoonRiver said:


> *Students respected teachers more* – We know how the youth treats teachers these days. Lack of proper bringing up or whatever other reasons for this might be, but they all lead to a significant decrease in respect toward teachers among students. Our generation believes that everyone owes them something. Even when simply collecting information for US history essay topics, we can find tons of examples when young people 50 years ago respected teachers, never doubted their opinion or complained to their parents about them. In fact, the Bored Teachers states that years ago 79 percent of students showed respect toward their teachers compared to 31 per cent today. The same source also mentions that modern parents are more likely to trust their children rather than tutors. This only deepens that gap between younger and older generations at schools.
> 
> I found these and many more in a matter of minutes and they come from both sides of the aisle. I could add another 50 or 100, but I'm guessing it wouldn't matter.


If your children are disrespectful, little jerks, that's your fault as a parent.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Teachers Unions vs. Online Education


Kids live on the Internet. Why aren't they learning online too?




reason.com





Teachers fought it, while screaming underpaid and underappreciated, much like fast food workers and cash register jockeys. Replace them with a machine. If we want to reduce our carbon footprint, we don't need to be wasting energy heating and cooling needless buildings, and we don't need to waste tax dollars on unqualified teachers that are not tech savvy enough to adapt. A scanner, please.Send them down the river, and invest the tax dollars that would be wasted paying them on broad band internet in impoverished areas, if you truly care about children's education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> Teachers Unions vs. Online Education
> 
> 
> Kids live on the Internet. Why aren't they learning online too?
> ...


You're hysterical. I actually laughed out loud when I read the supposed classroom examples from your ten year old opinion piece. It's obvious that the writer of that piece hadn't been in a classroom in quite some time, if ever. 

Those "machines" that you are so fond of are capable of presenting material in one way only. What happens when a student doesn't learn that way? What are your beloved machines going to do then? It's well past time when you admit that, in any discussion about teaching and education, you don't know what you are talking about.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> Religion never properly belonged in the classroom. I wonder if all the folks trying to push religion back into the classroom would be ok if a Muslim teacher was leading his/her Christian students in a Muslim prayer and reading from the Koran at the start of the day. Somehow I doubt it. Let's face it, when they say they want prayer back in school, they mean they want *their* religion and *their* prayer and to heck with anyone else in that classroom.
> 
> If your kids are in school and they have no concept of honesty, respect, acceptance of others, moral courage, etc., that's not the teacher's fault, it's yours.
> 
> ...


You might want to go back and read what you originally posted. I'm not playing the game of responding to ever-changing arguments.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> You might want to go back and read what you originally posted. I'm not playing the game of responding to ever-changing arguments.


Interesting dodge from you. Not unexpected though.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You are using a classroom technique, that is why words like myth, lies, dodge, etc don't fly with folks here.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> don't fly with folks here.


And yet she engages in a never ending barrage of wumao

At 50 cents a post she will be looking for a summer house, paid for with the proceeds


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You are using a classroom technique, that is why words like myth, lies, dodge, etc don't fly with folks here.


Yeah, the "classroom technique" of presenting truth and facts. I realize that truth and facts don't "fly with folks here". You'd so much rather believe the fantasies you have gathered from your conservative thought masters.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

All around the country, we can point to this specific district or that school that meets the education needs of the kids. That is the exception not the norm. Most any random survey exposes that the general public knows and has known the PES sucks.
I have a sign in my shop that says "No drunks or politicians". I may have to add to it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> And yet she engages in a never ending barrage of wumao
> 
> At 50 cents a post she will be looking for a summer house, paid for with the proceeds


Oh, look, more nonsense from you. 

33,332 vs 4,794. How much per post are you getting for your "never ending barrage" of nonsense from your conservative overlords?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Oh, look, more nonsense from you.
> 
> 33,332 vs 4,794. How much per post are you getting for your "never ending barrage" of nonsense from your conservative overlords?


ring up another 50 cents


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

How is income like that reported?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> How is income like that reported?


That is a good question


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

SLFarmMI said:


> Religion never properly belonged in the classroom. I wonder if all the folks trying to push religion back into the classroom would be ok if a Muslim teacher was leading his/her Christian students in a Muslim prayer and reading from the Koran at the start of the day. Somehow I doubt it. Let's face it, when they say they want prayer back in school, they mean they want *their* religion and *their* prayer and to heck with anyone else in that classroom.
> 
> If your kids are in school and they have no concept of honesty, respect, acceptance of others, moral courage, etc., that's not the teacher's fault, it's yours.
> 
> ...


How is it your place to say whether or not religion "ever belonged" in the classroom? Subjective much?

Furthermore, look at your last little sentence. Do you talk like that to your students? I think I made the right choice to do alternative schooling with my kids, in light of statements like this from a teacher.

Last, instead of just telling everyone "you're wrong" can you please back that up with some facts or links as opposed to just wildly arguing everything with nothing to back it up? Convince us you are right. It makes you sound pretty uneducated when others can post info to back up their statements but you're just screaming that everyone else is wrong. Seriously. I like you, but I would expect better behavior than this from a teacher, even one who is outside the classroom. Now, I understand that certain individuals here have been baiting you and don't particularly agree with that... but please, don't take the bait so easily.
Those of us with very small children are watching, and deciding if they will be putting their kids in school or homeschooling. . .


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

RJ2019 said:


> How is it your place to say whether or not religion "ever belonged" in the classroom? Subjective much?
> 
> Furthermore, look at your last little sentence. Do you talk like that to your students? I think I made the right choice to do alternative schooling with my kids, in light of statements like this from a teacher.
> 
> ...


RJ, this is just a skipping record that has repeated itself in countless threads.
However, I absolutely encourage public school teachers of this caliber to speak out. It does wonders for confirming what the public has generally known for several generations. 
I also don't blame a bad teacher for defending employment with bad results and spittle stammering their spin to justify it; they have bills and pensions to think about. The public allows this and allows politicians to be dictated by lobbyists, liberal fools and money.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

RJ2019 said:


> How is it your place to say whether or not religion "ever belonged" in the classroom? Subjective much?
> 
> Furthermore, look at your last little sentence. Do you talk like that to your students? I think I made the right choice to do alternative schooling with my kids, in light of statements like this from a teacher.
> 
> ...


How is it your place to dictate that your religion be forced upon students and teachers who may not share your religion? Are you ok with a Muslim teacher leading your Christian child in a Muslim prayer and reading from the Koran within the classroom? 

Secondly, in the sentence you are referencing, "disrespectful, little jerks" is an accurate descriptor of the children that some parents are putting out there in the world. Your child's behavior out in the world is a reflection of how you have raised him or her. It is not the fault of the school as some of the posters here want to claim. 

Thirdly, I routinely post facts and research to support my statements on this board. Apparently you missed them. That "info" that you are referencing from other posters is limited to opinion pieces, YouTube videos and nonsense from whatever conservative pundit they are listening to at the time. In the very post you are quoting, is a graph from the US Census refuting the misinformation the previous poster put forth. 

Finally, I don't really care that you or anyone "expects" that I should stay silent while the teacher bashers here routinely post misinformation, half-truths and outright lies about my profession and me personally. Not going to happen.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> None of the things I listed are the school's fault nor the teacher's fault. It's interesting that you declare the parent and the student to have no accountability and blame the school & the teacher for all. Just for curiosity's sake, exactly how is it the school's fault if you as a parent can't be bothered to get your kid to school?
> 
> I wonder if you hold other professions to the same standard of 100% results. If a doctor doesn't cure 100% of all diseases, should he or she be fired? After all, if the doctor was doing the job correctly, his or her patients would be 100% healthy regardless if the patient followed the doctor's advice. It's all on the doc, the patient bears no accountability. How about lawyers? If they're doing the job correctly, they would win every case. Looks like they're not getting the job done. Better fire them all. How about the police? If they're doing the job correctly, there would be no crime. Oops, looks like they're failing. Better fire them.


The student may not know what they should for their grade. Your correct it could be for a variety of reasons. The solution to graduating unqualified students is REAL simple. If the student does not know enough to pass for that grade, hold them back. For however long it takes.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Teachers are hired to teach. Parents are responsible for making sure the child is at school and ready and willing to learn and follow through on doing the work. Looks like it has become easier to blame the teachers instead of being a parent.


Your correct I think. The problem is when a school graduates that student. Thats is a school policy issue.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Your correct I think. The problem is when a school graduates that student. Thats is a school policy issue.


That is not the entirety of it. It has come to its current result because of both the parents and the school system.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Religion never properly belonged in the classroom. I wonder if all the folks trying to push religion back into the classroom would be ok if a Muslim teacher was leading his/her Christian students in a Muslim prayer and reading from the Koran at the start of the day. Somehow I doubt it. Let's face it, when they say they want prayer back in school, they mean they want *their* religion and *their* prayer and to heck with anyone else in that classroom.
> 
> If your kids are in school and they have no concept of honesty, respect, acceptance of others, moral courage, etc., that's not the teacher's fault, it's yours.
> 
> ...




If your children are disrespectful, little jerks, that's your fault as a parent.



Your correct. The problem seems to be that the student is allowed to stay in the school. Send them out the door. After all the school is not supposed to be a baby setting place.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> That is not the entirety of it. It has come to its current result because of both the parents and the school system.


If a student graduates, a school and some teaches has signed off that their education meets the standard. Parents are not the ones signing the the paper work saying the skills have been learned.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

painterswife said:


> If a student graduates, a school and some teaches has signed off that their education meets the standard. Parents are not the ones signing the the paper work saying the skills have been learned.


Parents are part of the system. I have seen the abuse the teachers get from parents that believe their child should not be failed. Parents are part of the schoolboards that make the rules teachers must follow.. Parents also should know where their child is on the educational spectrum and know that barely passing is not acceptable. 

Teachers are a small part of the system. Parents have at least as much responsibility as the teacher does if not in reality, more.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Parents are part of the system. I have seen the abuse the teachers get from parents that believe their child should not be failed. Parents are part of the schoolboards that make the rules teachers must follow.. Parents also should know where their child is on the educational spectrum and know that barely passing is not acceptable.
> 
> Teachers are a small part of the system. Parents have at least as much responsibility as the teacher does if not in reality, more.


How many kids have you put through school? Private or public?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> You're huge on excuses. Still waiting for an explanation of how it is the school's fault if you can't be bothered to get your kid to school.


No excuse for a parent's failing on that part. If a parent doesn't get their kid to school, I agree, it's their fault. However, how much of public schools failing is attributed to that? What about those students who are there? The illiterate ones who still graduate? I've met them. The administration that allows them through are scum. Certainly not worthy of their comfortable compensation package.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

SLFarmMI said:


> How is it your place to dictate that your religion be forced upon students and teachers who may not share your religion? Are you ok with a Muslim teacher leading your Christian child in a Muslim prayer and reading from the Koran within the classroom?
> 
> Secondly, in the sentence you are referencing, "disrespectful, little jerks" is an accurate descriptor of the children that some parents are putting out there in the world. Your child's behavior out in the world is a reflection of how you have raised him or her. It is not the fault of the school as some of the posters here want to claim.
> 
> ...


Wow. What an attitude to have.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, it would concern me as a parent.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

I sincerely hope I teach my little jerks to never have respect for someone with an attitude like that🙄


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> I sincerely hope I teach my little jerks to never have respect for someone with an attitude like that🙄


Now that you are all caught up, we need to continue to understand just what a disservice our public education system is.

The rich will grow the gap by using private schools, and more kids will learn to take what they are offered by the government, and be happy with it.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

We should have plenty with all the new people immigrating. Might take a bit longer for India with the covid visa hold.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> Now that you are all caught up, we need to continue to understand just what a disservice our public education system is.
> 
> The rich will grow the gap by using private schools, and more kids will learn to take what they are offered by the government, and be happy with it.


Not impressed with either school district here. It isn't so much the teachers, but more the breauracratic stupidity and cash grabbing attitude of the administrators. Over....get this... a preschool age kid!
Homeschool or charter school it is. And @HDRider you will be thrilled to know that we're looking at a STEM academy with independent study option for the upcoming kindergartener instead of settling for the BS the public school district has shovelled to us.

With all of that said, my personal experience with my schools has been that the teachers seem okay, it's the administration we should be looking at.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> It isn't so much the teachers,


None of us have blamed the teachers. I had some wonderful teachers. Even the worse teacher I had was OK.

It is the new, or maybe not so new, agenda, being pushed through public education.

We have the misfortune, or maybe it is good, of having a zealot here that defends the most indefensible aspects of public education. Me personally, I think she is a paid activist.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

RJ2019 said:


> we're looking at a STEM academy


Good luck. It is unfortunate you have to pay for your child's education twice.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

HDRider said:


> Good luck. It is unfortunate you have to pay for your child's education twice.


Yes, it is. But given the alternatives, it's probably a wise investment.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Parents are part of the system. I have seen the abuse the teachers get from parents that believe their child should not be failed. Parents are part of the schoolboards that make the rules teachers must follow.. Parents also should know where their child is on the educational spectrum and know that barely passing is not acceptable.
> 
> Teachers are a small part of the system. Parents have at least as much responsibility as the teacher does if not in reality, more.


I agree parents can be part of the problem, or the solution. The parents do not sign the graduation paper work. Thats the teachers and administration. The teachers have unions that supposedly protect them and insure they are able to do their jobs. Regardless, the paper work gets signed, then someone is responsible.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> None of us have blamed the teachers. I had some wonderful teachers. Even the worse teacher I had was OK.
> 
> It is the new, or maybe not so new, agenda, being pushed through public education.
> 
> We have the misfortune, or maybe it is good, of having a zealot here that defends the most indefensible aspects of public education. Me personally, I think she is a paid activist.


No, what you have is a person here who will tell the truth of what is really happening in public education, not the delusional misinformation, half-truths and outright lies that you spout on nearly a daily basis. How sad that you'd rather believe the lies and delusions and not the truth. 

Your last sentence merely illustrates how desperate you are to push your delusions. I couldn't possibly be correct when I refute your delusions -- I must be getting paid. That is just another example of the nonsense you spew on nearly a daily basis. I have to admit though, very often your hysterical ranting does make me laugh. You are nothing if not amusing.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

RJ2019 said:


> Wow. What an attitude to have.


You'd prefer teachers to be doormats and just sit quietly, never speaking up for the truth?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A doormat doesn't willingly participate in this discussion.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Members here are giving their personal accounts, both as a parent and as employees in the public school system.
You call them lies, myths and nonsense.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Members here are giving their personal accounts, both as a parent and as employees in the public school system.
> You call them lies, myths and nonsense.


Yet when I post my personal accounts of what is really happening in schools, backed up with facts and research, well, that couldn't possibly be true.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yet when I post my personal accounts of what is really happening in schools, backed up with facts and research, well, that couldn't possibly be true.


That is because you have no credibility. Nothing you post indicates that you actually have any practical experience in the subjects you are posting about, as they are all regurgitated talking points that are generally espoused by paid political activists. I am familiar with online learning. I even tried to get a struggling school system involved with an online learning program, which would have boosted their enrollment and gotten them more tax dollars. And I watched teachers fight it, and later watched those same teachers struggle with very basic technology as they cobbled together a distance learning curriculum. It would have been easy for them if they weren't so threatened by it. Now that it is OK to have students learn at home with an online platform, hopefully we can realize that we need to do things entirely differently. This doesn't necessarily mean that all teachers will be unemployed, it means that they will have different roles, and the ones who are not technologically advanced enough to fulfill those roles have no business teaching children at this point in time, when the children are likely discussing their abhorrent tech-gaffs on snapchat, thereby undermining all authority and credibility they think they have as educators of today's youth.

We need online schools for kids whose parents care about their education, with a brick and mortar institution for testing, and a bunch of wardens to babysit the kids from gen-pop, if we are to succeed on the world stage at this point in time.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> That is because you have no credibility. Nothing you post indicates that you actually have any practical experience in the subjects you are posting about, as they are all regurgitated talking points that are generally espoused by paid political activists. I am familiar with online learning. I even tried to get a struggling school system involved with an online learning program, which would have boosted their enrollment and gotten them more tax dollars. And I watched teachers fight it, and later watched those same teachers struggle with very basic technology as they cobbled together a distance learning curriculum. It would have been easy for them if they weren't so threatened by it. Now that it is OK to have students learn at home with an online platform, hopefully we can realize that we need to do things entirely differently. This doesn't necessarily mean that all teachers will be unemployed, it means that they will have different roles, and the ones who are not technologically advanced enough to fulfill those roles have no business teaching children at this point in time, when the children are likely discussing their abhorrent tech-gaffs on snapchat, thereby undermining all authority and credibility they think they have as educators of today's youth.
> 
> We need online schools for kids whose parents care about their education, with a brick and mortar institution for testing, and a bunch of wardens to babysit the kids from gen-pop, if we are to succeed on the world stage at this point in time.


You posting about credibility is truly hysterical. It is obvious from the nonsense that you post that you have no idea what you are talking about on any topic in education. Sure, the guy who posts a 10 year old opinion piece about technology in education is "familiar with online learning". Sure you are.

BTW, what I post is the truth. You just don't like it because the truth doesn't line up with the BS that you want to believe.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

In regards to the OP. Not enough high-skilled workers. Argue about whatever reason you want that our kids are not up to standards. The end result is that the teaching methods have not (for decades) and are not working. Yet the teachers keep coming up with excuses instead of results. Seems their pay needs to be based upon results. For darn sure their RETIREMENT needs to be based upon the results we see. Time to end the fraud we see so often in the government schools.

Perhaps we need to import some teachers and policy’s along with these hi skilled workers were bringing in.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> In regards to the OP. Not enough high-skilled workers. Argue about whatever reason you want that our kids are not up to standards. The end result is that the teaching methods have not (for decades) and are not working. Yet the teachers keep coming up with excuses instead of results. Seems their pay needs to be based upon results. For darn sure their RETIREMENT needs to be based upon the results we see. Time to end the fraud we see so often in the government schools.
> 
> Perhaps we need to import some teachers and policy’s along with these hi skilled workers were bringing in.


In regards to the OP -- you didn't read it did you? There was nothing in the OP that even remotely suggests that "our kids are not up to standards". They don't want to go into the fields referenced in the OP. But don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> That is because you have no credibility. *Nothing you post indicates that you actually have any practical experience in the subjects you are posting about, as they are all regurgitated talking points that are generally espoused by paid political activists...*
> And I watched teachers fight it, and later watched those same teachers struggle with very basic technology as they cobbled together a distance learning curriculum*. It would have been easy for them if they weren't so threatened by it.*


You noticed that too huh?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> The end result is that the teaching methods have not (for decades) and are not working. Yet the teachers keep coming up with excuses instead of results. Seems their pay needs to be based upon results. For darn sure their RETIREMENT needs to be based upon the results we see. Time to end the fraud we see so often in the government schools.
> 
> Perhaps we need to import some teachers and policy’s along with these hi skilled workers were bringing in.


There it is. 
Public education has become a fraud perpetuated on kids, the parents and as we see, the same song and dance is tried in this thread, lol.
Does China export teachers?
I hope they aren't stealing our design before doing so.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> None of us have blamed the teachers. I had some wonderful teachers. Even the worse teacher I had was OK.
> 
> It is the new, or maybe not so new, agenda, being pushed through public education.
> 
> We have the misfortune, or maybe it is good, of having a zealot here that defends the most indefensible aspects of public education. Me personally, I think she is a paid activist.


I have. University Education Departments do not prepare teachers to teach. They teach them to indoctrinate. 

I was unable to find the report, but I have read that on average, education students have a relatively low HS GPA and test scores as compared to students in other majors. A study also showed that Education students had the highest college GPA of all majors. So if you want to go from being a low performer to high, major in Education.

I was looking for something else and came across this. Notice this is in the *Department of Learning and Teaching* at a Catholic university.

*PhD in Education for Social Justice*

*Solidarity Statement and Call to Action*

The PhD in Social Justice program was founded on the belief that *education is a conduit, which can break the cycle of racism and give rise to social justice*. We, the students and faculty from the Department of Learning and Teaching in the School of Leadership and Education Sciences at the University of San Diego denounce and stand in opposition to the dehumanizing police violence and brutality represented by George Floyd’s murder, and that of the countless other Black people assaulted and killed by police.

We, as a social justice collective of educational leaders, are committed to uplifting and providing a better quality of life for our community. We are change agents, scholars, and activists fighting against systemic and institutional racism, police brutality, and inequities in education. We believe that we cannot achieve justice regarding racial, educational, political, economic, climate, or any other form of injustice, if it stifles a person’s human rights. An injustice against one person is an injustice against all.

We are called to act and to defend the rights and liberties of Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC), including those marginalized due to their sexual orientation and gender identities. The unheard voices of BIPOC are those within the American tapestry who exist in collective oppression and are often excluded from full participation as citizens in our democracy. They have been profiled, detained, and denied their rights – their humanity asphyxiated.
As the students and faculty of the Department of Learning and Instruction that represents social justice, we stand in solidarity with our Black brothers and sisters, with all of our brothers and sisters, in stating that we stand for:

Black Lives
Dismantling white supremist ideology, systems, and structures in our own institutions
Anti-racist and equitable hiring practices
Culturally and linguistically relevant, responsive, proficient, and sustaining teaching
The prevention of the loss of innocence of black, indigenous, and people of color from the experience of systemic racism
Substantial transformation in policies and the institution of policing
Advancing teaching and research to call out systemic injustices, especially those that manifest in the institution of education
Deliberately confront inequities with research, data and evidence that lead to actionable reforms for African Americans and all marginalized populations
*Policing*. Historically, policing as a system was designed to establish control and order in the service of white supremacy and economic gains for the dominant class. The US institution of policing is an extension of slavery and Jim Crow era policies in the south and a servant to political and economic hegemony in the north, meant to dehumanize Blacks (and other POC) as a means to maintain economic disparities in labor forces in service of hegemony (Muhammad, 2010; Abdelfatah & Arablouei, 2020). This relationship between law enforcement and people of color has racialized the American justice system through fear and suppression symbolized by a knee to the neck. The lack of response to years of brutality and injustice cannot be accepted through silence.
*Protesting*. Protesting and demonstrating are ways to express resistance to acts of violence and as such is a form of advocacy and activism whose goal is to create meaningful institutional change. We’re seeing and experiencing this form of protest, this expression of solidarity today with all people of color standing for social justice against a white body supremacy.
*Schooling*. We challenge all educators to look at their k-12 and higher education institutions. Does the staff, leadership and teachers represent the student body? Does it represent the communities around the school, the district or county? We can all benefit from diversity; from anti-racist and equitable hiring practices that encourage the hiring of people of color.
*Healing*. In order to build and regain trust, to unite and to heal historically oppressed communities, we need restorative justice. Restoring relationships through meaningful and critical conversations is essential. So, we implore you to build relationships with Black families and BIPOC communities. We ask that you help students and colleagues across all racial and ethnic groups more deeply understand the realities of Black people’s interactions with law-enforcement officers. Let us restore humanity through action and social activism. We need to rise together, to stand for equity, to learn about our combined and individual histories, and to actively listen to each other for the betterment of humankind.

Leading with solidarity,
*Department of Learning and Teaching PhD Students and Faculty






Solidarity Statement and Call to Action - PhD in Education for Social Justice


The PhD in Social Justice program was founded on the belief that education is a conduit, which can break the cycle of racism and give rise to social justice. We, the students and faculty from the Department of Learning and Continue reading →




sites.sandiego.edu




*


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> In regards to the OP -- you didn't read it did you? There was nothing in the OP that even remotely suggests that "our kids are not up to standards". They don't want to go into the fields referenced in the OP. But don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.


Actually I did read it. And was able to comprehend it to some degree. I will admit in the past, having to improve upon my government public school education. Probably needs more improvement, but I am a product of this so called great public education. Nothing in the OP or the link discuses people not wanting to work in the computer fields. It talks about lack of skills for those jobs. 


“The U.S. does not have enough high-skilled workers to meet demand for computer-related jobs,”


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Something else in the OP link was the section about a lack of a driver license being one of the larger problems. I would have thought that would be a fairly easy issue to solve. Guess not.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Redlands Okie said:


> Something else in the OP link was the section about a lack of a driver license being one of the larger problems. I would have thought that would be a fairly easy issue to solve. Guess not.


Some people really shouldn't be driving. I've noticed that some of the younger generation realizes that. And if they can't read signs then it may be for the best...


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Disregard the paid activist serial poster.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Actually I did read it. And was able to comprehend it to some degree. I will admit in the past, having to improve upon my government public school education. Probably needs more improvement, but I am a product of this so called great public education. Nothing in the OP or the link discuses people not wanting to work in the computer fields. It talks about lack of skills for those jobs.
> 
> 
> “The U.S. does not have enough high-skilled workers to meet demand for computer-related jobs,”


You may want to work on your inferencing skills. There is nothing in that sentence that implies "because the applicants lack the requisite knowledge to do the job".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You may want to work on your inferencing skills. There is nothing in that sentence that implies "because the applicants lack the requisite knowledge to do the job".


Which part of ”does not have enough high skilled workers” did you miss?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You noticed that too huh?


I realize that you and your crowd want me to post in support of your dearly held beliefs about teachers and education. Unfortunately, what you believe to be true just isn't.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Which part of ”does not have enough high skilled workers” did you miss?


What part of the fact that that sentence does not state nor imply that lack of ability to do the job is any part of the shortage did you miss? If a company has 10 openings and only 5 applicants, then they don't "have enough high skilled workers". The article did not propose a cause other than possibly this: "Equally concerning, over the same time period, the active labor force shrank by almost 4 million people, indicating that many have given up looking for work due to discouragement, return to schooling, illness, or age (Table 10)."


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

With all this intelligence floating around here, can anyone tell me the definition of impasse? 

Asking for a friend


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> With all this intelligence floating around here, can anyone tell me the definition of impasse?
> 
> Asking for a friend


Let your friend know there is no impasse. There are no members here as of yet who have posted a glowing review of their kids public school experience in Utopia District 1. One person paid to schill and the rest sort of thinking "Did they really just say that? lol.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

mreynolds said:


> With all this intelligence floating around here, can anyone tell me the definition of impasse?
> 
> Asking for a friend


Stalement


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

101pigs said:


> Statemate, Deadend, etc.





101pigs said:


> Stalement


X stalement. Should be Statemate.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Definition? Sort of like listening to a timeshare presentation.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> You may want to work on your inferencing skills. There is nothing in that sentence that implies "because the applicants lack the requisite knowledge to do the job".


Nothing implies they do not want the job, or want it.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Got a really good childhood friend who was also a classmate go into Engineering Technology. He only needed to get an associate's. He already knew how to code and he eventually was laid off once then on the 2nd hired job, the company was in Austin, Texas and was growing rapidly so they decided to relocate to California after he went to Ireland. He went to Ireland for 4 months and didn't like it...he didn't like how they do business in their culture which basically was doing business in pubs (that's how they do it there, I guess) He came along and discovered that he was being used by the company to train Indian and Asian born engineers on how to develop and research things on the cheap. Basically he was one of the higher paid Americans who was being paid to train the immigrants who were moving to California and the company was way underpaying them. He knew it and didn't like it. He decided to start looking for a job back in Austin, TX and his boss and supervisor literally laughed at him when he told them he could find a job in Texas that paid MORE than that job where he was working at.

It did take him a few months and he used his vacation time to fly down to Texas for interviews. He landed a job that he admits he wouldn't ever get today. Basically he was hired on the spot by a state agency who needed someone to do and set up the agency's website. He had ZERO experience in it but had tons of engineering experience. He said the interviewer was just one person. He says now they do a panel interview where a candidate is interviewed by several people. After he got confirmation that he was indeed hired full time, he went into panic mode. He went to the book store and bought a book titled "Website development for dummies" and a few other books. Went into the books for 4 days after moving to Austin and went to the new job on Monday. He managed to really do well in it to the point where he moved up to the supervisor level. During COVID, he and his co workers worked from home. Due to this, he was able to convince his supervisors that he could do it from Florida! His wife had worked at the same job for 20 years so she retired quite early and got a 2nd job and now she's quit her job. They sold their house over a weekend and he bought a house and currently they're living their dreams early instead of working until retirement which was probably going to take maybe 10-20 extra years.

He says there are LOTS of Americans who can do highly skilled work BUT companies are preferring to hire out of the country on the cheap because Americans aren't stupid and aren't going to be willing to work for super low salaries in a high cost of living state.


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## Peterson (10 mo ago)

I agree that there are a lot of workers in the U.S., but not many professionals. This applies to all industries, from factory workers, to medics, engineers, and especially lawyers, how hard it is to find a good attorney. When my brother was on trial, no matter what the case, he was facing jail time and it seemed like our lawyer was doing everything he could to get my brother locked up as quickly as possible. I started looking for someone more experienced and a good friend recommended Middlesex County Criminal Defense Lawyer because he said they were the best in the state, and you know, he didn't lie. The progress went right away, and my brother was facing only a fine and community service instead of jail. That's the way it is.


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