# basic H, copper,DE



## mjones (Oct 28, 2008)

Can someone tell me how much Basic H to put in the water for worming.
how much DE to put in their mineral. and apple cider vinegar for goats i hear it is good for them. How much in there water and do i let them have it free choice or make them drink it. One more thing where can i get copper bolues pills?


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## LomahAcres (Jan 21, 2007)

Can't answer your first question - I don't use water/mix wormers, I don't think they work well enough. I like to make sure everyone gets what they need and dose individually. 

Why are you putting DE in your mineral? If you want to feed DE I would add a little to the grain, or just sprinkle it over their hay. 

Apple cider vinegar is good for boosting immunity, but you don't want to give it every day as they will develop a resistance to it. I'd give it 3 days a week in a row. 1 cup vinegar to a gallon water - more or less. Just leave it out for them to drink as much as they want. 

Copper oxide pills are available at valletvet.com and jefferslivestock.com - look for copasure for cows - you have to re-size them for goats dosages. Hope that helps


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I also have not ever heard of Basic H. Usually the pelleted wormers or something you put in their water doesn't work well enough to take care of the parasites so most folks don't use them. I would get either Cydectin or Ivermectin depending on where you live & what works in your area.

As for the apple cider vinegar I use it everyday in my goats water because they love it so much & have for years. I add just enough to cover the bottom of their water bucket then fill the bucket. 

If your not sure about the copper boluses & how to measure them out there's a couple folks here that resize them & sell them to HT members. I believe Mrs. H is still doing it.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

I have used Basic H with great results. The only thing that showed on fecal after using it was tapes and coccidia in the youngest. That was a while ago - before I started using coccidia prevention. I have 18 gal buckets and would put 1/2 cup, I think. It's super concentrated. It's been a while since I've used it because I ran out and keep forgetting to reorder. I like it because it is organic.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Unforunately, there are a lot of things that get talked about on the internet that just don't work. 

Using Basic H for a dewomer is a hoax. It's a detergent. It says OVER and OVER in it's documentation that it's not toxic to anything in the environment. Why would it work on worms?

Using diatomaceous earth as a dewormer is controversial. It really doesn't work WET, and the inside of a goat is wet. 

Using apple cider vinegar MAY help reduce urinary calculi, but the rumen (digestive system) of a goat should NOT be acidic, as it makes them ill. BUT, you will run into a lot of folks who swear by it. I don't use it.

Copper boluses:
Copasure


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

You can buy them goat size now. Animal Health

I use a lot of natural stuff on myself and critters, so I'm not ignorant of using some stuff that works. Copper boluses do work to a degree on barberpole worm only. They also improve overall immunity which *helps* with other parasites. Basic h is not going to do anything. Apple cider vinegar is an excellent health supplement if the raw, unfiltered variety (going to be pricy to feed goats). It will improve overall health by the minerals and enzymes etc it contains. Being put in the water, it will not go directly into the rumen, goes in the abomasum if I remember right (I've not been awake long though ). It's not going to directly acidity urine for uc, however, it contains a lot of minerals that allow the body to buffer ph as it chooses and that probably would help with uc. It is never, in a million years going to worm your goat other than improved health helps your goats immunity overall. A good thing but never rely on it to protect them from parasites. Unless you live in a desert or your goats live on a large area of land and their shelter area is either a slatted raised house or moved to different places, you will have dead goats. 

De is another excellent mineral supplement. Same as copper it may improve immunity, but I've not found it to worm goats. I would mix it in my mineral 1 part to 4 parts mineral. I would mix it well and add brewers yeast (1 pt) to keep things a little moist and prevent goats from inhaling it. 

If you want to avoid chemicals, plant half their pasture area in sericea lespedeza and ensure there is enough they have constant access the whole time its growing, copper bolus, provide excellent minerals and pull kids to an area where there have never been goats or they will start getting stunted along about about your 2nd to 4th year in goats. Your biggest problem then, is going to be their shelter area which is contaminated with parasite eggs. Building a raised shelter with slatted floors where their poo can fall through is a good idea. Or rotate your goats do a different area of land every year so they at least skip one entire year on the land they were on before. This will really break the cycle of parasites. 

You are just not going to naturally fix he parasite problem with goats the same way you fix it with chems. It's going to require completely different management.

Get a good microscope (under 100 dollars) and learn to fecal so you know what's going on inside your goats. Also learn to read anemia in the eyelids, famancha. Use both techniques continually, don't replace one with the other.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

please tell me more about lespedeza


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Lespedeza and other worm control techneques:
Parasite Control


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

We give goats baking soda to prevent acidic rumen. It is not advisable to give apple cider vinegar to a goat. You can try Molly's Herbals for herbal worming. You still need to do fecals if you use herbals or traditional wormers to be on the safe side. You still need to treat kids for cocci.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I read on here I think that putting ACV in their water would reduce ticks on them. Mine will not drink it. I swear I have fussy goats since they will not touch raisins either. 

DE works dry, the point of it is to cut into the parasite/insect and dry it out, that does not work when it is wet. I do not feed it to mine, no point but I have used it on their coats to avoid lice.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

southerngurl said:


> You can buy them goat size now. Animal Health
> 
> Copper boluses do work to a degree on barberpole worm only.


I would like to see a source on that. I have a hard time believing that copper has any effect on barberpole worm. I'm not saying you're incorrect. I've just never heard or seen that.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

tailwagging said:


> please tell me more about lespedeza


Sericea lespedeza is a noxious weed and is illegal in some states because it will take over pastures and once you have it in a pasture, you can never eradicate it completely. The ONLY animal known that will eat it is the goat and it is a natural dewormer for goats.

In Kansas, it is illegal to plant it or knowingly sell it. It is listed as a noxious weed. If you have it in your pasture and you do not spray it each year you can be fined up to $1500 per day for every day that you do not make the attempt to control it. Most chemicals known to kill weeds will not kill sericea lespideza. There are only a couple chemicals that will. When it is found on your property, the state/county will not give you an option to try and control it with any means other than a couple chemicals that are known to kill it. Also, here, the county has the option that if you don't work on controlling it through chemical means, they will either fine you for each day you refuse to spray it, or they will spray it and bill you for the costs. It is very expensive to try and control it once you get it in your pastures.

So, even though it is known as a natural dewormer for goats that graze on it, in many places it is illegal to have it. So, before you consider letting it grow, know the laws in your state and county concerning it.


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## melco (May 7, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Lespedeza and other worm control techneques:
> Parasite Control


Alice, Thank you for posting this. It was very informative.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Research article about copper and controlling worms:
http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Files/Joan/COWP Use 3.pdf

Another article:
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-0709103-153221/unrestricted/Watkins_thesis.pdf


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

PaulNKS said:


> Sericea lespedeza is a noxious weed and is illegal in some states because it will take over pastures and once you have it in a pasture, you can never eradicate it completely. The ONLY animal known that will eat it is the goat and it is a natural dewormer for goats.
> 
> In Kansas, it is illegal to plant it or knowingly sell it. It is listed as a noxious weed. If you have it in your pasture and you do not spray it each year you can be fined up to $1500 per day for every day that you do not make the attempt to control it. Most chemicals known to kill weeds will not kill sericea lespideza. There are only a couple chemicals that will. When it is found on your property, the state/county will not give you an option to try and control it with any means other than a couple chemicals that are known to kill it. Also, here, the county has the option that if you don't work on controlling it through chemical means, they will either fine you for each day you refuse to spray it, or they will spray it and bill you for the costs. It is very expensive to try and control it once you get it in your pastures.
> 
> So, even though it is known as a natural dewormer for goats that graze on it, in many places it is illegal to have it. So, before you consider letting it grow, know the laws in your state and county concerning it.



we have it here and my rabbits LOVE it. I give them a sprig every other day. that is why I asked.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

PaulNKS said:


> Sericea lespedeza is a noxious weed and is illegal in some states because it will take over pastures and once you have it in a pasture, you can never eradicate it completely. The ONLY animal known that will eat it is the goat and it is a natural dewormer for goats.


You mean kinda like bermuda grass?  Cattle and horses do eat it, just not real well. However, the improved variety, AU grazer which I planted, is supposed to be perfectlly palatable for cattle and horses.

Take a look at this field comparison between sericiea lespedesa and bermuda: 

http://simsbrothers.com/hayfieldComparison.htm

With all the droughts we've been having in this country, and the fact that lespedesa is a high protein, high quality fodder, I think it couldl be an important food for livestock. 

Sericea Lespedeza as an invasive species? article: http://simsbrothers.com/pdfs/Invasive_plant_Misconception_of_SL_.pdf


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

thaiblue12 said:


> I read on here I think that putting ACV in their water would reduce ticks on them. Mine will not drink it. I swear I have fussy goats since they will not touch raisins either.


That's funny! My fussy girls don't like to drink there water with out ACV in it. When I ran out they drank about half of normal. I might not care but no water not milk. They had their ACV by the next morning. I'll tell you who's in charge around here! The goats  !


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## mjones (Oct 28, 2008)

thank you all for the information, iwas wanting to use copper,basic h and DE to help not replace worm med. I have 10 pasture to rotate my goats but i live in Arkansas so worms are the biggest problem that i have raising goats


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Joel Salatin used to advocate using Basic H as a wormer, don't know if he still does. It's not really a detergent, it's a surfactant and I think that's somehow it's mechanism of action for parasites - not the fact that it's toxic to anything. Look on his Polyface site, maybe there will be info there.

De does seem to have real health benefits for animals and people anecdotally. We were just talking about this on the horse forum and wondering if it's the high mineral content. Our soils are very mineral deficient from many years of growing crops with only chemical fertilizers which means ours and our animals food and hay grown on that land are also deficient. Minerals are very important for our bodies. Some people discount their importance because some are needed in "trace" amounts. That's a fallacy, they are still just as important as any other of the building blocks our bodies need, it's just that some are needed in smaller amounts than others. And as we know goats have very high mineral needs that aren't met by the way we feed them. We compensate by giving them the bagged minerals mixed in what we "think" are proper ratios but as we know we are constantly learning new things about mineral needs.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount "natural" remedies, sometimes their mechanisms of action might not be immediately obvious to us but some of them do work well. To some of you who have to understand how everything works (I am one of you btw) you might be interested to know that the medical profession doesn't understand the mechanism of action for many many medications that are prescribed and sold every day. When you look them up in the drug book it says right there "mechanism of action unknown."


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Also, acv is considered to be alkaline forming, like lemon juice. They are very acid but upon digestion they make the body more alkaline. I don't remember how to explain that one, google acid and alkaline forming foods to find out more.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

southerngurl said:


> You mean kinda like bermuda grass?  Cattle and horses do eat it, just not real well. However, the improved variety, AU grazer which I planted, is supposed to be perfectlly palatable for cattle and horses.
> 
> Take a look at this field comparison between sericiea lespedesa and bermuda:
> 
> ...


LOL... NO nothing like Bermuda. I like Bermuda. Sericea Lespedeza is nothing like other types of lespedeza. It is invasive and if allowed, it will take over and ruin a pasture or hayfield. That is why some states have made it illegal...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, it is invasive. It almost ruined my hay meadow.

It has beneficial qualities, but if harvested for hay, it must be cut YOUNG, and often the rest of the field plants aren't ready. If it gets woody, the animals you are feeding the hay to may not eat it.

sericea lespedeza, Lespedeza cuneata (Fabales: Fabaceae (Leguminosae))

Article about controlling lespedeza in Missouri:
http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/in...ve-plant-management/sericea-lespedeza-control


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

PaulNKS said:


> LOL... NO nothing like Bermuda. I like Bermuda. Sericea Lespedeza is nothing like other types of lespedeza. It is invasive and if allowed, it will take over and ruin a pasture or hayfield. That is why some states have made it illegal...


I don't know if there is anything so invasive as bermuda. Just because you "like" bermuda doesn't change how almost impossible it is to destroy. Ever tried to get rid of it? But since it's useful, we don't care. Same with sericea, if it's useful, it's not so bad that it's so hardy. And it's certainly easier to get rid of than bermuda.


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## Sande Auvenshine (Jul 6, 2019)

mjones said:


> Can someone tell me how much Basic H to put in the water for worming.
> how much DE to put in their mineral. and apple cider vinegar for goats i hear it is good for them. How much in there water and do i let them have it free choice or make them drink it. One more thing where can i get copper bolues pills?


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## Sande Auvenshine (Jul 6, 2019)

mjones said:


> Can someone tell me how much Basic H to put in the water for worming.
> how much DE to put in their mineral. and apple cider vinegar for goats i hear it is good for them. How much in there water and do i let them have it free choice or make them drink it. One more thing where can i get copper bolues pills?



I would love to reply to your Basic H request. Basic H Classic is a surfactant sold through a representative of the Shaklee company. I have raised goats for the past 4 years. Amid growing concerns about the ever increasing challenge of parasites, (we were worming every 2-4 weeks 6 months out of the year), my husband and I decided to purchase a 5 gallon container of Basic H Classic and share with 2 other goat producers in the area. 
Amazingly, we have had no parasites present in random fecals done throughout this first year of using Basic H Classic with our herd of 22 goats on 8 acres. 

Here is our protocal: 
I begin treating water on a Sunday and keep treated water out for 7 days in an enclosed pasture where there is only treated water available. No natural tanks. Floats must be disabled for this week. Dosage of Basic H Classis: 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons water. I took a 5 gallon bucket out and literally filled my containers of unknown volume until I knew what each would hold, made notes, then added BHC accordingly. 

7 days treated water, 21 days untreated water. Marked the calendar for the year. I never dump remaining waters, simply do not add treated water after day 7. No more parasites. However, Coccidiosis numbers were not affected. 

Now we are beginning the second year, and our parasite load on the place must be greatly reduced. This year we will be treating water only 2 days per month, the first Sunday and Monday, hoping to keep rumens healthy and parasites at bay with as little intervention as possible. We will monitor fecals and follow up. Basic H Classic has done a marvelous job of controlling parasites for our herd.


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