# Newbie and solar...



## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I am in the process of getting ready to build my forever tiny house. But I am not sure I am wanting to hook it up to power. Just to have a pole brought to my house is starting at 1,500. and then there is the line to run it to my house, then the cost of wiring etc. 

I am only needing a few lights, a kitchen stove which I need to pass code but have no plans of really using as I will be using a wood stove to heat and cook with. And I will also have a shower, so hot water. 

Bottom line, what I am looking at for solar panels? And who is the best company to buy from, etc?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

There are several members on here that can help you with the electronics of solar, but you will need to calculate how many watts your electrical requirements will use.
It's not as hard as it might sound, but knowing exactly how many lights you need and the bulb wattages for example, is crucial.
You may also want to consider other types of appliances like a gas stove or water heater instead of electric.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Plan on propane for the stove and hot water. Having them as electric will drastically increase the size of the system when you try to get it to pass code and make for a wasteful system with such a large inverter to run just a couple lights.

WWW


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

will you also have a water pump?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We got our PhotoVoltaic panels from Sun Electronics.

http://sunelec.com/solar-panels

They still seem to have the best pricing.



We got most of our stuff from Wholesale Solar:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/

Like the special cables to run from your panels to the E-panel. The E-panel itself and Charge-Controller.



We got our batteries from Tractor Supply Company.

I would also recommend that you follow discussions on: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/


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## R-Farm (Aug 18, 2016)

A couple things to consider:

As mentioned above - go propane for cook stove, hot water, and primary heat. Wood stoves are awesome and very versatile, but unless you live in the arctic circle, cooking in one year round would make your tiny house a tiny oven. Also, primary wood heat will limit homeowners insurance options and double your premium. A good woodstove for a tiny house would be the Kimberly - it burns small wood and is very efficient.

Solar hot H2O is an option you should consider if you are not going to be nomadic. I have a a Sunbank for a family of 4 and it does the job.

If you follow the propane suggestions - you would be fine with a 24V battery bank and 8 panels. All in a DIY system like This this for under $5K. I put a 48V 18 panel system up on my strawbale house with the help of 2 carpenters - it was surprisingly simple. I had a licensed electrician come out for a day to inspect all wiring and make the final connections to the combiner boxes, charger/Inverter, and to the breaker box.

The refrigerator will be your biggest energy consumer, a DC fridge could reduce your system size by half, but cost wise it is a wash.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

It depends a lot of what you are doing and why.

My wife wants to reduce how much we consume from away and reduce how much stuff we have to buy every month.

If you shift your cooking fuel from electricity to propane, you do reduce how much electricity you are consuming. But you are making an equal increase in how much propane you consume.

I can not make propane. She can not make propane. Which means that if we need propane, we must go out and buy it. So how much you spend each month stays the same.

If you are concerned about prepping for disasters. In a disaster, when gasoline stops flowing and the grid goes down, propane will likewise be no longer available.

Any method of cooking in your house heats your house. Wood does not magically heat your house any more than any other fuel.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

ET1 SS said:


> It depends a lot of what you are doing and why.
> 
> My wife wants to reduce how much we consume from away and reduce how much stuff we have to buy every month.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't argue about any of that. But I might add just a bit of my own perspective, FWIW.

While electric vs propane probably won't make a lot of difference in cost, and long term, you can't make your own propane, in shorter term outages, propane has a significant advantage. When the electricity grid shuts down, it's off. The electric range in the kitchen is dead, from the moment the grid goes down. (And a solar setup sized to be able to run an electric kitchen range isn't small, it's quite large.) But if a person has a propane stove, it's pretty typical to have a tank of propane that gets filled a few times a year that might keep a propane kitchen range in operation for several months on just the fuel on hand. 

Sustainable, no. Useful for short term outages, I think so.

I've lived in an RV for over 10 years now. When there is no heat, hot water or refrigeration demanding propane, a 30# tank of propane lasts us for 3 or 4 months just using the stove. And that is using the oven for baking bread and pizza, too, plus a few casseroles here and there. 

That doesn't take into account where you are or whether it's easy to get propane delivered if you have a tank on your property. That I don't know. 

Good luck!


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Okay, so thank you for the suggestions. And I will be looking into the links you have provided. My fridge is going to be a tiny dorm size fridge, so not much use there. And for kitchen stove, I can so propane. For that matter, they are not even going to look at what I put in, they only want to see the wires that would go to it. So that could be a easy fix. Lights, I will have a total of 3 lights running the length of the house which is going to be a 14 by 40 foot long house. 

I just picked up the shower for it yesterday which is really a horse trough. 


This is what I am going to have site built. a 14 by 40 foot long barn, with 2 by 6 construction and 16 inch on center. The entire inside will stay one big open floor plan with a additional bathroom add on. 










The wall height will be 8 feet and I have 9 windows going into it. 8 of the windows will be 3 by 5 and the kitchen window will be 2 by 6 to allow for a lot of natural light.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

cindilu said:


> Okay, so thank you for the suggestions. And I will be looking into the links you have provided. My fridge is going to be a tiny dorm size fridge, so not much use there. And for kitchen stove, I can so propane. For that matter, they are not even going to look at what I put in, they only want to see the wires that would go to it. So that could be a easy fix. Lights, I will have a total of 3 lights running the length of the house which is going to be a 14 by 40 foot long house.
> 
> I just picked up the shower for it yesterday which is really a horse trough.
> 
> ...


Consider a moment. That metal roof, as they install the sheets of roofing, if every fourth sheet was clear greenhouse roofing instead of metal. They would be 'sky lights'. I included some skylights like that and the price was nearly the same.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> Consider a moment. That metal roof, as they install the sheets of roofing, if every fourth sheet was clear greenhouse roofing instead of metal. They would be 'sky lights'. I included some skylights like that and the price was nearly the same.


Those would be ok in an unheated summer space. In winter... might as well just leave the windows & doors open. Zero thermal value ! Cindilu get's the nasty white stuff.

Couple of points unmentioned Cindilu,
Propane is a byproduct of gasoline production and a low pressure gas. Should power / supplies fail your stuck. BUT there is a way around that ! You can use a Bio-digester and generate biogas (Methane / aka Natural Gas) at low pressure and use your propane appliances without modification. Using your waste to generate gas to run your appliances... 

1 good article but many out there:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/other-renewables/biogas-generator-zm0z14aszrob.aspx


On Solar... This can get tricky and there is a lot of mis-information, incomplete info and biased info... The "retail" end of the business is very much like the Personal Computer retail business was in 1990 which is not good for the industry as a whole.

Some basics... a typical 200-300W, 60 cell panel is almost 6' long x 3' wide ! Line 8 of them up and that is a lot of space, and a lot of power too. The best install is a Pole Mount with tracker but an 8 panel setup for that installed is $tiff but it pays back with the gains. 

Roof mounting is fine if done right for the roof type. This is a bit more difficult & challenging on a Gambrel Roof with such narrow bands. Maybe build a separate "power house" with a fixed ground mount ? (would be a shed for batteries, inverter/charger, backup genny)

You really have to work out your power needs 'today' and build a system that can meet that and more (there are always power spikes in use) but that can be expanded if need be. *take your time, be cautious and learn everything you can... the educated consumer is a smart consumer and less likely to get "up sold"* There are far too many Huckster's out there and I still prefer a Brick & Mortar store for most things (especially if my life depends on the product at some point & my Solar System is one of those)... closest power line to me is over $60,000 down the road and over the hill.

PS: Conservation is 10x cheaper than buying capacity.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Steve_S said:


> ... Some basics... a typical 200-300W, 60 cell panel is almost 6' long x 3' wide ! Line 8 of them up and that is a lot of space, and a lot of power too. The best install is a Pole Mount with tracker but an 8 panel setup for that installed is $tiff but it pays back with the gains.
> 
> Roof mounting is fine if done right for the roof type. This is a bit more difficult & challenging on a Gambrel Roof with such narrow bands. Maybe build a separate "power house" with a fixed ground mount ? (would be a shed for batteries, inverter/charger, backup genny)
> 
> ...


We have 20 PhotoVoltaic panels. They are mounted in an array alongside our house. Their mounting is hinged at the top, to allow them to be set at different angles. A summer angle, a spring / autumn angle, and a winter angle.

Keep in mind that batteries need to be located in a heated space.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

And as Steve mentioned, we get a lot of snow in this area. Lots and lots of snow with the temps dropping below zero. Which is where a really good wood stove comes into play. Even though the house is tiny, the temps and wind factor make this area on the chilly side in the winter, spring. And we got snow in July of this year, so even into the summer.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

cindilu said:


> And as Steve mentioned, we get a lot of snow in this area. Lots and lots of snow with the temps dropping below zero. Which is where a really good wood stove comes into play. Even though the house is tiny, the temps and wind factor make this area on the chilly side in the winter, spring. And we got snow in July of this year, so even into the summer.


I can see where that could be an issue down South where you are located. Here in Maine we rarely get any extreme cold, our normal winter low is -20F.

Our solar panel array holds the panels up high enough that the bottom of the panels is 4 foot above the ground. I have to snowblow to keep the snow from piling up and covering the panels.

We have a lot of South facing windows and sky lights enough that the solar gain affects home temps. Without burning firewood the coldest we have seen in our house has been 50F [when it was -20F outside].


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Why 14 x 40 ? Sounds like a trailer.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

I suspect 14' wide is about as wide as can be delivered on the back of a truck, probably similar with the length of 40'.

That said, if I were looking to do something like this, I might be inclined to order two of them, say 14' wide x 40' long that they built the roof to meet in the middle and left out a good bit of the tallest walls (where they meet) and join the two halves to make it appear to be a 24' x 40' that was built that way. It requires a little more thought with the foundation but certainly doable. 

I had a workshop building built for me very much like that about 20 years ago. Insulated it, put in electric, heat and lights. I really liked that little shop building. It could have pretty easily been converted into a small house.

Just reminiscing, mostly...


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Steve_S said:


> http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/other-renewables/biogas-generator-zm0z14aszrob.aspx
> 
> Some basics... a typical 200-300W, 60 cell panel is almost 6' long x 3' wide ! Line 8 of them up and that is a lot of space, and a lot of power too. The best install is a Pole Mount with tracker but an 8 panel setup for that installed is $tiff but it pays back with the gains.


Steve,

Panels above 200w are mostly 72 cell.

I'd disagree on pole mounted trackers. Panels are now so cheap, you're better off buying more, and not fooling with trying to keep the mechanical part of trackers working in addition to the extra cost. I have both pole mounted arrays, and fixed ground mount. My trackers have been a complete PITA....I wouldn't wish them on anyone.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@Cindilu, maybe a tad late but I would point out a tiny detail... Are you aware that it will take more energy (regardless of source) to heat / cool a 14'x40' than a 28'x20' with the exact same floor space. Same applies to a bungalow as well... Cheaper to build a 2nd floor in materials & ongoing operating expenses than one large main floor. 

I just cannot envision hanging solar panels on the roof of Cindilu's Gambrel Roof and hanging off the side would block windows which I don't think is part of her plan.

CSP makes 60 cell panels up to 280w, Heleine to 275w. The 355W 72 Cell panels have actually just had a nice price drop... rumours of 500W panels abound, not seen'em yet.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I had considered doing a 24 by 24 but using my idea I have measured exactly where I am going to put furniture etc. For me, it was just easier to do it this way. And you are right, 14 by 40 is the largest size you can haul down a freeway. Mine will be site built as my wall height will be 8 feet instead of the normal 6 feet you can haul down a freeway. 

The house cabin will be 14 by 40. I have one cabin that is 12 by 24 already there with a second 12 by 24 coming in the next couple of weeks. Both 12 by 24's will not need power, but I have considered putting panels on the roof of the cabin that is already there and sending the electric over to the house cabin.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

If you are concerned over winter heating do consider passive solar design.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Cindilu - Do you always have that many shadows on the shed? It's way to many for solar to provide any useful power. 

Can you get someone with a solar pathfinder (or similar device/app) to do a solar survey on your property? Even if it costs a couple hundred it would be well worth knowing how much of a problem those shadows will be.

Here's a link to Builditsolar.com on how to do a basic survey yourself.

WWW


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I am in the trees, so yes. My property has 7 old growth ponderosa trees, with the lot in back of me having double that. The cabin that is already there faces south. By afternoon the trees in the back lot have my house pretty well shaded.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Then I'd say you need to look at a different option. Is there a clearing close by that you could place the panels and have fairly clear southern exposure? You will have to keep them within about 200' or the wiring losses and cost get too high.

WWW


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

The property is very small. 100 by 100 feet. So that is the best sun exposure that I have?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Got Sun? Sorry to say it looks like you don't and solar would be a poor option for you. You really need clear sky for at least 6 hours centered around solar noon for it to work. Shade like that will diminish your panels output to 10% or less then it's rating.

WWW


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

You could be right. I spent the day there the other day. I have full sun on the roof until about 3 in the afternoon where at that point it becomes shadowed. That picture was taken in the late evening around 5pm. 

I am considering grid tie at this point. Put a couple of panels, grid tie and build up panels as I go along.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

cindilu said:


> You could be right. I spent the day there the other day. I have full sun on the roof until about 3 in the afternoon where at that point it becomes shadowed. That picture was taken in the late evening around 5pm.
> 
> I am considering grid tie at this point. Put a couple of panels, grid tie and build up panels as I go along.


If you go 'grid-tie' net-metering [the setup where you can spin the meter backwards] the installers are funded via a lot of grants and bonds. Those systems are highly regulated. They will only install at a set capacity. So you can NOT add-on later.

If you were to grid-tie in a grid-assist setup [like mine] you can never spin the meter backwards, but you can make additions later.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

cindilu said:


> You could be right. I spent the day there the other day. I have full sun on the roof until about 3 in the afternoon where at that point it becomes shadowed. That picture was taken in the late evening around 5pm.
> 
> I am considering grid tie at this point. Put a couple of panels, grid tie and build up panels as I go along.


The only systems that are easily grow able on a small scale are micro inverters. They also help deal with shade issues because each panel is separate in production as compared to a string of panels.

The downside (and expensive) of growing a system is the permitting and fees with each addition. These could run more than the equipment/labor depending on how fees are based. You will also be subject to a new net metering agreement each time so would eliminate any grandfathering with changes in the law. Right now lots of places are looking at charging solar systems a grid access /usage fee or limiting there output.

With the shade happening after 3pm it might not be so bad. That would be closer to 4pm solar time with daylight savings in effect. You do also need top check winter shade issues as the sun will be a lot lower in angle and make a different arc through the sky then.

WWW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

ET1 SS said:


> If you go 'grid-tie' net-metering [the setup where you can spin the meter backwards] the installers are funded via a lot of grants and bonds. Those systems are highly regulated. They will only install at a set capacity. So you can NOT add-on later.
> 
> If you were to grid-tie in a grid-assist setup [like mine] you can never spin the meter backwards, but you can make additions later.


That depends more on the local regulations than the type of system. Many states (and I'm sure Oregon does) regulate off-grid systems just like grid tie. You still have to go through the permitting process and pay the fees and follow NEC. So with a grid assist system you end up with the worst of both designs and pay extra for it.

WWW


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

wy_white_wolf said:


> That depends more on the local regulations than the type of system. Many states (and I'm sure Oregon does) regulate off-grid systems just like grid tie. You still have to go through the permitting process and pay the fees and follow NEC. So with a grid assist system you end up with the worst of both designs and pay extra for it.
> 
> WWW


Here the state regulates who can install. Installers are equipment dealers, who only deal with high end components. Which makes their systems far more expensive than if you bought pre-wired off the shelf components.

The Power Companies have gotten the legislature to pass laws that allow the PoCos to do all the inspections and certifications of systems.

Local code enforcement has no knowledge on the topic. So long as a system is considered to be 'low voltage' they do not seem to have any jurisdiction to make comments of solar power installations.

PoCo engineers /inspectors run how things are done, but only for grid-tied net-metering systems. Anything that does not provide power onto their grid, is outside of their focus.

As a result, net-metering systems are commonly twice the price of stand-along off-grid systems [with batteries]. Until you bring in the rebates, credits and subsidies.

We have no "local regulations" unless a specific town wants to write it's own ordinance. [which I have never heard of]

This state has no regulation on off-grid systems.
There is no 'permitting process'.
There are no 'fees'.

Grid assist systems are the lower priced systems, the most versatile systems, and may be the best over-all design [at least here on the East Coast].


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Great for Maine. But she's in Oregon which is completely different. Statewide they've accepted the NEC 2014 and are looking to adopt NEC 2017 early next year. So she will have permitting to deal with.

WWW


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