# The sad state of American Trucking



## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Professions come and go, markets fluctuate, and the world, well, the world in general changes constantly. Nonetheless, it's a sad state of affairs when America's most common job, trucking, is in peril. Trucking is hard, arduous, and draining work. Yet 1.7 million people have this job. Since deregulation, however, the trucking economy has suffered tremendously. Even worse, automated trucks loom on the horizon. Legislators would do well to begin setting up regulations to brace for impact. Unfortunately, we are much more reactionary and proactive. Shifting such a huge job market suddenly could prove disastrous for the country, and we are ill equipped to handle disasters at this point. We would do well to encourage better understanding of the trucking economy, and encourage legislators to do the same. 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/...mtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=https://m.facebook.com/


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

We're probably a decade at best from wide spread use of the driverless vehicles. As it stands today, there are thousands of unfilled truck driving jobs to be had every day.

I'd like to see our country rebuild the rail system and get some of these trucks off the roads period. It would make things much safer, plus eliminate a lot of the wear on the roadways.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Fishindude said:


> We're probably a decade at best from wide spread use of the driverless vehicles. As it stands today, there are thousands of unfilled truck driving jobs to be had every day.
> 
> I'd like to see our country rebuild the rail system and get some of these trucks off the roads period. It would make things much safer, plus eliminate a lot of the wear on the roadways.


What do you think is responsible for the 80% turnover at the fleet trucking? Is it like a fast food job - low pay, overworked, miserable atmosphere?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

The larger fleets are for the most part training fleets, and the new drivers get treated pretty rough, your just a number, your new to the life style (and yes this is a lifestyle career) some companies will keep drivers out from 3-8 weeks.

I don't believe it's going to take a decade for driverless (although there will be a driver in the train) Europe is real world testing the technology now. I also believe there will be a need for people driven trucks in several of the niche hauling fields.

I don't know where the author got the low pay thing if your willing to work you can make a really good living, the best is owning your truck and having your own authority tho. Of course finding a niche market and fulfilling it is always best.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> What do you think is responsible for the 80% turnover at the fleet trucking? Is it like a fast food job - low pay, overworked, miserable atmosphere?


Most people trying the industry don't realize it's a lifestyle not a run of the mill career! 

The pay is actually very good, it's a very regulated industry so you can't be overworked, the atmosphere is what you make it, after all you are responsible for making your working/living areas what they are.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

The complaints I hear about are things like DOT hassles, weigh stations, log books (many going electronic), hours restrictions (even when you're not behind the wheel), and butt hole drivers everywhere (some of which are truckers).

I happen to agree with the idea of developing the rail system much more, both for freight and people moving.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bellyman said:


> The complaints I hear about are things like DOT hassles, weigh stations, log books (many going electronic), hours restrictions (even when you're not behind the wheel), and butt hole drivers everywhere (some of which are truckers).
> 
> I happen to agree with the idea of developing the rail system much more, both for freight and people moving.


The complaints you are hearing are drivers who just don't want to comply with the rules. True you have to plan your trips, but what's wrong with that?
There are no hours restrictions once you are off duty not sure where your getting.

Butt hole drivers have been around since there where more than 3 drivers on the road. I will agree that the trucking industry drivers have changed from being helpful to being ass hats for the most part, but then that's just a furthering of society in general...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> The complaints you are hearing are drivers who just don't want to comply with the rules. True you have to plan your trips, but what's wrong with that?
> 
> 
> There are no hours restrictions once you are off duty not sure where your getting....


Lol well of course those who are happy with the rules won't complain!
You have to admit there are some pretty stupid rules. 

As for the second part we have recently had two drivers issued citations for failing to record enough sleeper birth time. They had sufficient off duty time so perhaps that is what was ment ?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Good to hear from the other side of the fence, so to speak. However I have heard from some truckers that it's hard to get good pay, if can be really hard to move up the ladder, and like the article said, the whole industry may soon be thrown into upheaval by auto driving. That couple seriously damage the economy - people really don't like changing jobs.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

What ladder? You drive a truck. You have to put in the years and have a good driving record and you might get better routes but no real ladder to climb.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

All I know personally, from friends who drive truck, is that it is long lonely work. That would be why lot lizards get so much business. I think couples who drive together may fare better than the lone trucker. Driving the big trucks is also hard on the body I am told with lots of back, gut, and kidney issues as one ages.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> What ladder? You drive a truck. You have to put in the years and have a good driving record and you might get better routes but no real ladder to climb.


So in your opinion, is it a dead end job? I know a family who has their own trucking company. They had four drivers and were growing fast in just the year or two I knew them. However, the article did also point out that it's hard to drive and go to college, even night school.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

sisterpine said:


> All I know personally, from friends who drive truck, is that it is long lonely work. That would be why lot lizards get so much business. I think couples who drive together may fare better than the lone trucker. Driving the big trucks is also hard on the body I am told with lots of back, gut, and kidney issues as one ages.


Do you think that's normal or would that be from bad suspensions?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> So in your opinion, is it a dead end job? I know a family who has their own trucking company. They had four drivers and were growing fast in just the year or two I knew them. However, the article did also point out that it's hard to drive and go to college, even night school.


Did I say it was a dead end job? I said that their is not a lot of room for growth in actual driving. You sure assume a lot. Driving a truck is driving a truck. Owning a company or being management are different jobs and you don't need to ever drive a truck to been in those careers.


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## Harrier (Mar 1, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> Most people trying the industry don't realize it's a lifestyle not a run of the mill career!
> 
> The pay is actually very good, it's a very regulated industry so you can't be overworked, the atmosphere is what you make it, after all you are responsible for making your working/living areas what they are.


Keep the truck clean, stay away from the truck stop "ladies", and don't get into meth.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> What do you think is responsible for the 80% turnover at the fleet trucking? Is it like a fast food job - low pay, overworked, miserable atmosphere?


disrespectful dispatchers, days at a time stranded out in the boonies without support, ...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> Do you think that's normal or would that be from bad suspensions?


You can drive on a road and not feel any bumps. Drive a truck and you'll feel every one. If you've watched the cabs on trucks you'll have noticed the cab moving up and down which is supposed to make for a better ride. Same with air ride seats. You're still constantly moving up and down.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol well of course those who are happy with the rules won't complain!
> You have to admit there are some pretty stupid rules.
> 
> As for the second part we have recently had two drivers issued citations for failing to record enough sleeper birth time. They had sufficient off duty time so perhaps that is what was ment ?


If they had 10 yrs in any combination sleeper berth/off duty, how did you ding them?

And how does a non law enforcement entity issue citations?

I will admit I don't agree with all the rules, but for the most part the rules are fair.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Well they only had 11 HOURS logged off duty. The issuing officer claimed that since they didn't log any sleeper time they could have spent the time in the casino. 
That's the basis the citation was issued on. 
And yes we know it legal to spend you off duty time in a casino but that's what the officer said.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> What ladder? You drive a truck. You have to put in the years and have a good driving record and you might get better routes but no real ladder to climb.


 That seem like a pretty rude and disrespect full thing to say.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Well they only had 11 HOURS logged off duty. The issuing officer claimed that since they didn't log any sleeper time they could have spent the time in the casino.
> That's the basis the citation was issued on.
> And yes we know it legal to spend you off duty time in a casino but that's what the officer said.


Somehow your story sounds like just another trucker tale, but it is your story, soooooo.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> So in your opinion, is it a dead end job? I know a family who has their own trucking company. They had four drivers and were growing fast in just the year or two I knew them. However, the article did also point out that it's hard to drive and go to college, even night school.


There are several resources drivers can use to bootstrap up to owner/operator or owning a company. It all depends on the individual.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> So in your opinion, is it a dead end job? I know a family who has their own trucking company. They had four drivers and were growing fast in just the year or two I knew them. However, the article did also point out that it's hard to drive and go to college, even night school.


The job is what the individual makes it, I can give you several small companies that promote drivers into management...


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Darren said:


> You can drive on a road and not feel any bumps. Drive a truck and you'll feel every one. If you've watched the cabs on trucks you'll have noticed the cab moving up and down which is supposed to make for a better ride. Same with air ride seats. You're still constantly moving up and down.


Trucks today are way more comfortable that trucks of the past, air ride suspensions compared to spring ride or worse walking beam.

Air ride cabs compared to solid mount, air ride seats compared to bolted with maybe a spring in them.

Power steering, auto trans., you can set them up to not be alot different from a high end car...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> That seem like a pretty rude and disrespect full thing to say.


To you maybe. I respect truckers and the job they do. I know the paperwork, the hours and the sacrifices they make to daily family life. Good drivers are always in demand. Nothing rude or disrespectful in that.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Some career ladders are just longer than others.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> What ladder? You drive a truck. You have to put in the years and have a good driving record and you might get better routes but no real ladder to climb.


 First off you need to put in about 5 years before you become a long haul driver. 
Then most specialties require a few years before you can get in them 
Them once in it usually takes more years to move up in that specialty. 

You don't just haul a quarter million pounds over Loveland on your 16 th birthday. 

Then you start to move into management
, dispatcher , safety ,HR,training etc. 
At least that's how it used to be. 
Now with irrelevant requirements for degrees a lot of the top is gone so the old man and his experiance often goes home to live like a pauper on disability while ignorant children with degrees get management positions. 
The upside is once home that driver might be able to work on a degree.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

There are many reasons for the driver turnover rate and the blame isn't one sided.

It's not as easy as it looks and like any occupation, the pros and cons have to mesh with the individual.
If you can't stand the physical and emotional demands, you won't like it no matter how much money you make.
As far as how much you DO make, it often isn't up to the driver. Maybe partly, but definitely not 100%.
The biggest factor comes out of the dispatch.
If a company is run good, the loads are dispatched as sequentially and geographically as possible. If the management doesn't give a darn, you can run loads all over the place, always behind schedule and waiting around for days when you're not..............usually 1,000 miles from your home or family.

Lease deals on equipment, breakdowns, tolls and traffic - you name it and if the people giving the orders are "logistically challenged" it doesn't take long to figure out you picked the wrong company to drive for. The happiest truckers I know are owner operators for small companies where they make money by working smarter, not harder.
If they want the load, it's on their route or dumps off close to home, they can grab it and go. If not, let someone else take it to a big city with no way to back to the dock and a 36 hour wait to load/unload.

There's even more, but ya get the picture.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Did I say it was a dead end job? I said that their is not a lot of room for growth in actual driving. You sure assume a lot. Driving a truck is driving a truck. Owning a company or being management are different jobs and you don't need to ever drive a truck to been in those careers.


Your post was unclear, so I asked for clarification. No need to get snotty.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Darren said:


> You can drive on a road and not feel any bumps. Drive a truck and you'll feel every one. If you've watched the cabs on trucks you'll have noticed the cab moving up and down which is supposed to make for a better ride. Same with air ride seats. You're still constantly moving up and down.


Yes, I often see trucks that say "air ride equipped," usually in bold letters in a conspicuous location on the truck, as though being placed there as an advertisement or incentive to work for the company. I know I would certainly want the best ride, not just for comfort, but because getting bumped for endless hours on end is bound to be hard on the back.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes, I often see trucks that say "air ride equipped," usually in bold letters in a conspicuous location on the truck, as though being placed there as an advertisement or incentive to work for the company. I know I would certainly want the best ride, not just for comfort, but because getting bumped for endless hours on end is bound to be hard on the back.


That's usually on the trailer, and advertises a light ride for the freight. The difference can be a jumbled up pile in the middle of the trailer with spring ride, or your product still neatly placed on the pallets with air ride.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

coolrunnin said:


> That's usually on the trailer, and advertises a light ride for the freight. The difference can be a jumbled up pile in the middle of the trailer with spring ride, or your product still neatly placed on the pallets with air ride.


Yep.
I didn't ever think about the fact that a lot of people wouldn't know that and assume it meant it was a smoother ride for the driver, lol.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Your post was unclear, so I asked for clarification. No need to get snotty.


I might borrow that.
It's about time for a new signature.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

farmrbrown said:


> Yep.
> I didn't ever think about the fact that a lot of people wouldn't know that and assume it meant it was a smoother ride for the driver, lol.


Well, yeah. I didn't know that was for the trailer. I also thought it might be on the trucks, because some luxury SUVs and luxury motor homes have air ride suspensions.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I've often wonder why pickups come in so many weight ratings when air ride would make them all ride the same and better than any of them.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Trucks today are way more comfortable that trucks of the past, air ride suspensions compared to spring ride or worse walking beam.
> 
> Air ride cabs compared to solid mount, air ride seats compared to bolted with maybe a spring in them.
> 
> Power steering, auto trans., you can set them up to not be alot different from a high end car...


They key to that is the word "can"

We just delivered new truck with a Hendrickson rubber suspension. 

For those outside the trucking Industry it means that the entire suspension consists of two rubber blocks about the size shape and sponginess of an brick.







Oh and before anyone asks, nope I don't have a link.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> They key to that is the word "can"
> 
> We just delivered new truck with a Hendrickson rubber suspension.
> 
> ...


You forgot the part about it being a vocational truck right?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

There are lots of things that are "possible" but may not be in widespread use.

An example is full automatic transmissions in class 8 tractors. Not only do they exist, they actually work very well. Are you likely to run in to a random truck driver that's using one? Probably not.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> You forgot the part about it being a vocational truck right?


 Please define vocational for me. 

This truck appeared to be a over the road owner operator Rig but no suspension in the Seat or cab either.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bellyman said:


> There are lots of things that are "possible" but may not be in widespread use.
> 
> An example is full automatic transmissions in class 8 tractors. Not only do they exist, they actually work very well. Are you likely to run in to a random truck driver that's using one? Probably not.


Actually automatic equipped over the road trucks are very common in fact they may outnumber manual transmissions in that application at this point. 
I'm sure someone will have a link to the exact numbers soon. 
But it is one of the reasons that I advocate testing drivers in a automatic equip truck to receive an unlimited license. 
A truck automatic while convenient and a useful tool for beginners is in other ways far more complicated and deadly than a manual transmission


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> That seem like a pretty rude and disrespect full thing to say.


It's the truth. You can go from hauling freight to hauling frac trailers, your pay might change but your still only driving a truck. I have my CDL to drive a service truck. I can only work 14 hours a day as well. After seeing some west Texas accidents north of pecos I am actually glad for dot.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> It's the truth. You can go from hauling freight to hauling frac trailers, your pay might change but your still only driving a truck. I have my CDL to drive a service truck. I can only work 14 hours a day as well. After seeing some west Texas accidents north of pecos I am actually glad for dot.


That's cause the ladder is broken. 
Did you see the second half of the following ?



AmericanStand said:


> First off you need to put in about 5 years before you become a long haul driver.
> Then most specialties require a few years before you can get in them
> Them once in it usually takes more years to move up in that specialty.
> 
> ...


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## chaossmurf (Jan 6, 2017)

Fishindude said:


> We're probably a decade at best from wide spread use of the driverless vehicles. As it stands today, there are thousands of unfilled truck driving jobs to be had every day.
> 
> I'd like to see our country rebuild the rail system and get some of these trucks off the roads period. It would make things much safer, plus eliminate a lot of the wear on the roadways.


canyou imagine how much the terrorists loved your post ???? my guess is them saying ---ow look their going to gather up all their dangerous things into one load & drive it right into cities in bulk ,,man are we ever going to save on explosives lalalalallaboom

somehow I feel safer with a driver in each truck & less lethal toxins and flammable liquids all combined together in massive trains


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Fishindude said: ↑
> I'd like to see our country rebuild the rail system and get some of these trucks off the roads period. It would make things much safer, plus eliminate a lot of the wear on the roadways.


That still won't get trucks off the road.
CSX is building a large freight terminal not too far from here, which will serve to *increase* truck traffic exponentially.
http://www.areadevelopment.com/news...nnector-edgecombe-county-north-carolina.shtml



> According to state officials, CCX will transfer containerized cargo between trains and *trucks*, processing more than *260,000 containers per year* initially.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> That's cause the ladder is broken.
> Did you see the second half of the following ?


Yes I did. It doesn't change the fact you are still a truck driver. Doesn't matter what you haul you are a truck driver. Equipment, freight, cars, frac units, oil rig components, A TRUCK DRIVER IS A TRUCK DRIVER. Some more skilled than others and some make more money than others but they are all the same profession. Dispatch, management and hr are not truck drivers they are office jobs. Most drivers don't want dispatch or management because they know how the other drivers are. I was a mechanic at a truck line I know truck drivers are.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> It's the truth. You can go from hauling freight to hauling frac trailers, your pay might change but your still only driving a truck. I have my CDL to drive a service truck. I can only work 14 hours a day as well. After seeing some west Texas accidents north of pecos I am actually glad for dot.


I don't see how anyone could complain about the 14 hour rule. Sleep deprivation has the same physiological effect on the brain as alcohol. 14 hours to drive, 2 hours to do some stuff, and 8 hours to sleep - seems like a too-full day already to me.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't see how anyone could complain about the 14 hour rule. Sleep deprivation has the same physiological effect on the brain as alcohol. 14 hours to drive, 2 hours to do some stuff, and 8 hours to sleep - seems like a too-full day already to me.


14 hours of duty time, only 11 hours driving.

This includes pre and post trip inspections, fueling, unload/Load, paperwork, dot inspections, etc.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Some one is wrong here. I saw an article today or yesterday that said there was shortage of truckers and the going rate was 80-100k year depending on miles of course. Now I tend to believe mine because I know the owners of the trucking companies around me and they are hiring every week and the turnover is often. Thats why they hire every week. One HAZMAT hauler I know is paying 120k to drop gasoline and diesel and home every night. Thats unheard of here in my neck of the woods. Houses dont cost that much here. Its like a Dr. being able to pay for his house in one year at a million or so. 

Makes me wish I had more than a class B just to drive the fire truck at the volunteer FD. I am helping a guy that cant read or write to study for his test so he can get on board with them.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't see how anyone could complain about the 14 hour rule. Sleep deprivation has the same physiological effect on the brain as alcohol. 14 hours to drive, 2 hours to do some stuff, and 8 hours to sleep - seems like a too-full day already to me.





coolrunnin said:


> 14 hours of duty time, only 11 hours driving.
> 
> This includes pre and post trip inspections, fueling, unload/Load, paperwork, dot inspections, etc.


 I'm not sure you guys are understanding each other. 

As CR points out it's a 14 hour block to work in. 

What's worst is that with a 11 hour driving window It tends to rotate your sleep 3 hours forward each day. 
Do you always work in a 14 window ?
If I get to work and spend a half hour pretriping and preping the truck and two hours driving to the customer I've got 11 1/2 hours left. if I then spend 4 hours loading the truck and I'm bone weary I can't take a refreshing nap with out it coming out of my remaining running time. 
If I get to that drowsy time in the afternoon I can't stop and get coffee or take a nap without it coming out of my driving time. 
And if I do take a nap and am greatly refreshed I can't drive longer when I feel alert. 

A better rule would allow you to drive no more than 4 hours after a break require a break for every two hours worked. In each 24 hours Require a 8 hour block of rest that must include 6 of the same hours rested the day before or 12 if not. 
Allow 16 hours per day 80 per week 280 a month 720 a quarter and 2200 Year. 

And of course the best thing that could be done for trucking safety would be to require at least minimum wage be paid for each hour and overtime paid after eight for every hour away from the home Terminal.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I'm not sure you guys are understanding each other.
> 
> As CR points out it's a 14 hour block to work in.
> 
> ...


I don't really see that making a difference. I am guessing that you can just sit around for a few hours extra to make sure your schedule stays the same from day to day?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I'm not sure you guys are understanding each other.
> 
> As CR points out it's a 14 hour block to work in.
> 
> ...


You do know you can split sleeper berth right. Take your 2 hour nap and you still have your 9 hours driving, then finish out your 8 hours offduty/sleeper berth. I actually like the new rules slightly better than the old rules, except the new split berth rule.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I think there are two different worlds here, local and long distance. I drove long distance for only a few months and figured I would rather sleep in my own bed at night so the rest of my 30 years driving have been local. Made pretty good money although I worked hard for it delivering construction equipment and water and now building supplies.

Driverless trucks may make an impact in long distance or local dock to dock deliveries but there are so many other jobs which require more then just sitting behind the wheel. No computer is going to load and chain the equipment for me so even though the truck might be driverless a person still has to load it. I doubt a driverless truck is going to safely negotiate itself down a rough logging road or successfully get around the downtown of a big city safely. Way too many variables.

I"m not anti technology, I think driverless vehicles, both cars and trucks, will make up a certain percentage of the market eventually but there will always be certain base markets and industries that will remain human operated, not the least of which will be many people who simply want to drive.

Most drivers I know who work locally make pretty good money, getting paid hourly, overtime, etc. There is lots of trucking work here in Ontario with many companies looking for drivers. Yes, even local driving can involve long hours, I probably averaged 55-60 hours a week over most of my driving career but the money is good as long as you are willing to work hard.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

LOL.
I love reading these posts.
You can tell which ones come from real life experiences and which ones come from just reading about it.

I'm not picking on fishing dude, but to use as an example, I wish I knew how many times I heard someone talk about railroads as an alternative to trucks for moving freight.

Now, think about this.
How many stores that you go to, have a railroad track going past the back door of their warehouse and of THOSE, how many could allow traffic to be blocked for hours while that train made a stop to be unloaded?

NOW, you know why the argument is so funny to truck drivers.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't really see that making a difference. I am guessing that you can just sit around for a few hours extra to make sure your schedule stays the same from day to day?


 No
Not at all 
Remember everyone wants their load delivered yesterday. And companies want as much equipment utilization as possible And of course crossing time zones just makes it worse. 
And of course if you could you don't get paid for those hours and that's what you are selling is your time. Three hours setting in a truck isn't exactly fun time and you can't fix the porch while you do.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Actually there already are a lot of driverless trucks. 
The railroads call them piggy back. 
Look carefully at piggy back trains and note what is NOT on them. 
Loads requiring inroute care.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't really see that making a difference. I am guessing that you can just sit around for a few hours extra to make sure your schedule stays the same from day to day?


Drivers have pretty firm deadlines that don't allow for hanging out for a few hours a day. Missed deadlines is a quick way to become unemployed.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Setting unrealistic deadlines is also a good way to loose your job and possibly your cdl. It's important to know what you and your truck are capable of.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> Drivers have pretty firm deadlines that don't allow for hanging out for a few hours a day. Missed deadlines is a quick way to become unemployed.


That's a fairly obvious factor, and one that should obviously be taken into account when setting schedules on the shipping companies part.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Unfortunately unless you're an O/O, someone ELSE is setting your schedule.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

farmrbrown said:


> Unfortunately unless you're an O/O, someone ELSE is setting your schedule.


That's why I'm an O/O...lol. Why would I let anyone set my schedule?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

coolrunnin said:


> That's why I'm an O/O...lol. Why would I let anyone set my schedule?


Well, you're right of course.
Not everyone can start out buying their own rig, or maybe shouldn't until they're ready.
But you know what the company drivers deal with every day.........


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> That's a fairly obvious factor, and one that should obviously be taken into account when setting schedules on the shipping companies part.


Schedules are set based on log book requirements and the better companies factor in some time for unexpected delays but I don't know of any that set schedules for unexpected events and an additional 3 hours a day hanging around time. Long haul drivers are typically paid by the mile so they respect log book requirements but those three hours a day you mention means three hours a day they are unpaid. 

Even if they did, most drivers won't spend 3 hours hanging out because it complicates log books and because of potential problems. Outside of mechanical issues, in my area, a driver can easily spend a day or so (unpaid) being stuck on a highway until an avalanche has been cleared or roads can be closed for up to 24 hours because of weather. 


My son is in a sector where a late load is subject to fines as $500,000.00 per day late and in one case, a load was delayed for nearly a week before the temperature was warm enough for the hydraulic levels on the trailer to be accurate enough to tackle a steep hill. Not only are they restricted by the same log books every other company is but they are also restricted as to what time of day they can move and what highways they are allowed to use because of height and dimension.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

The drivers I have spoken with who work for an individual company hauling just stuff that company manufactures/sells seem to be more satisfied with their job than people who drive for companies that just haul freight under contracts.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> Schedules are set based on log book requirements and the better companies factor in some time for unexpected delays but I don't know of any that set schedules for unexpected events and an additional 3 hours a day hanging around time. Long haul drivers are typically paid by the mile so they respect log book requirements but those three hours a day you mention means three hours a day they are unpaid.
> 
> Even if they did, most drivers won't spend 3 hours hanging out because it complicates log books and because of potential problems. Outside of mechanical issues, in my area, a driver can easily spend a day or so (unpaid) being stuck on a highway until an avalanche has been cleared or roads can be closed for up to 24 hours because of weather.
> 
> ...


I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment, only that most of what you said is probably irrelevant in America with the 11 hour driving rule. Either drivers are following the rules or breaking them.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> That's why I'm an O/O...lol. Why would I let anyone set my schedule?


Don't you have customers that set time requirements for delivery?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment, only that most of what you said is probably irrelevant in America with the 11 hour driving rule. Either drivers are following the rules or breaking them.


You seemed to feel you were knowledgeable enough to suggest that along with the 11 hour rule, drivers could just hang out for an extra three unpaid hours to adjust their schedules so they were driving at the same time each day. Are you abreast enough of log book laws to make such suggestion? 

It's also interesting that you discount my other comments as 'likely not relevant' in the US. Your statement is grossly incorrect since drivers cross borders daily, the laws are universal, as are laws pertaining to OD loads. Size, weight and dimension are the deciding factors as to time of day a driver can transport and what routes they take.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Don't you have customers that set time requirements for delivery?


Sure they set a time frame, and I decide if that frame meets what I am able and willing to do, and either negotiate it or refuse the contract. 
Most of my stuff is flat or hopper so there is rarely a specific time for loading or unloading I generally call and say I can be there at such and such time and we set a agreed upon time for loading/unloading.

I also have a reefer. With that I have specific load times and in my contracts it's spelled out what happens when I'm late or the shipper goes over 2 hrs. getting me loaded, same for unloading at the reciever.


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## Harrier (Mar 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> That seem like a pretty rude and disrespect full thing to say.


How? Either it is true or is not true. If it is not true, then it can be refuted, but that doesn't make the claim that there is no ladder disrespectful.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> You seemed to feel you were knowledgeable enough to suggest that along with the 11 hour rule, drivers could just hang out for an extra three unpaid hours to adjust their schedules so they were driving at the same time each day. Are you abreast enough of log book laws to make such suggestion?
> 
> It's also interesting that you discount my other comments as 'likely not relevant' in the US. Your statement is grossly incorrect since drivers cross borders daily, the laws are universal, as are laws pertaining to OD loads. Size, weight and dimension are the deciding factors as to time of day a driver can transport and what routes they take.


If you can't drive for longer than 11 hours in a certain time window you can't drive more than 11 hours in a certain time window. You seem to be having a hard time grasping that, which is not my fault. All I was suggesting was that drivers would have to allow for these rules. Clearly they are doing it somehow.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> You seemed to feel you were knowledgeable enough to suggest that along with the 11 hour rule, drivers could just hang out for an extra three unpaid hours to adjust their schedules so they were driving at the same time each day. Are you abreast enough of log book laws to make such suggestion?
> 
> It's also interesting that you discount my other comments as 'likely not relevant' in the US. Your statement is grossly incorrect since drivers cross borders daily, the laws are universal, as are laws pertaining to OD loads. Size, weight and dimension are the deciding factors as to time of day a driver can transport and what routes they take.


These are the official US driving rules. I hope this clears up any confusion. 

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa.dot.gov/files/docs/Drivers Guide to HOS 2015_508.pdf



> 14-Hour Driving Window
> 
> This window is usually thought of as a “daily” limit even though it is not based on a 24-hour period. You are allowed a period of 14 consecutive hours in which to drive up to 11 hours after being off duty for 10 or more consecutive hours. The 14-consecutive-hour driving window begins when you start any kind of work. Once you have reached the end of this 14-consecutive-hour period, you cannot drive again until you have been off duty for another 10 consecutive hours, or the equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty.
> 
> ...


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## Harrier (Mar 1, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> The job is what the individual makes it, I can give you several small companies that promote drivers into management...


Ugh, management.

I've spent enough time in an office, cubicle, and a sales floor.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> These are the official US driving rules. I hope this clears up any confusion.
> 
> https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa.dot.gov/files/docs/Drivers Guide to HOS 2015_508.pdf


I don't need a copy of the US rules. If you had read my post, you would know that I'm well versed because my company operates in both countries. 

You continue to skirt my question, which related to your comment that in order to avoid an odd shift in driving hours, drivers just hang out for a couple extra hours. How do you propose that will be logged and how does wasting a few hours each day alleviate driver fatigue or improve productivity?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> It's the truth. You can go from hauling freight to hauling frac trailers, your pay might change but your still only driving a truck. I have my CDL to drive a service truck. I can only work 14 hours a day as well. After seeing some west Texas accidents north of pecos I am actually glad for dot.


 That refers to a post where PW said " what ladder? You drive a truck"
It might be accurate but it carries intonations that sound rude. 
PW later explained it in a much more friendly sounding way.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Harrier said:


> Ugh, management.
> 
> I've spent enough time in an office, cubicle, and a sales floor.


Easy peavey don't go into management. LOL Someone posted about a lack of advancement in the transportation industry.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> That refers to a post where PW said " what ladder? You drive a truck"
> It might be *accurate but it carries intonations* that sound rude.


You say that quite often.
Your *perceptions* are your problem and no one else's.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> These are the official US driving rules. I hope this clears up any confusion.
> 
> https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa.dot.gov/files/docs/Drivers Guide to HOS 2015_508.pdf


Lol actually that is the source of a lot of confusion. 
When a Driver has been sitting in the west dim water for four days and a company offers him a load that has to be there at a certain time the message is clear. 
"Take this load get it there on time or sit in the west dim water until you grow dusty"

Figuring out how to make it fit into his logs is his problem but it would best to assume it his logs are going to show that he drove on those days that he sat in dim water.

That's why drivers need to be paid from time out to time in.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol actually that is the source of a lot of confusion.
> When a Driver has been sitting in the west dim water for four days and a company offers him a load that has to be there at a certain time the message is clear.
> "Take this load get it there on time or sit in the west dim water until you grow dusty"
> 
> ...


Even the training companies are advertising paying detention pay these days. If my company left me set 1 day we are going to have a talk about everyone's expectations.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You say that quite often.
> Your *perceptions* are your problem and no one else's.


Lol well my perception of your post is it is both rude and inaccurate. 
But if it's true you wouldn't need to post about that post or this post since it's no one else's problem.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That still won't get trucks off the road.
> CSX is building a large freight terminal not too far from here, which will serve to *increase* truck traffic exponentially.
> http://www.areadevelopment.com/news...nnector-edgecombe-county-north-carolina.shtml


By leaving out a few pertinent details you have manage to get the point backwards. 
While roads fanning out from the terminal may experience a increase in traffic for a certain distance overall there will be fewer miles driven by trucks. Thus less traffic overall.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Even the training companies are advertising paying detention pay these days. If my company left me set 1 day we are going to have a talk about everyone's expectations.


I bet if those talks were unsatisfactory they could lead to a personal rate of high turnover.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I bet if those talks were unsatisfactory they could lead to a personal rate of high turnover.


That is afirmative...lol


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> By leaving out a few pertinent details you have manage to get the point backwards.
> While roads fanning out from the terminal may experience a increase in traffic for a certain distance overall there will be fewer miles driven by trucks. Thus less traffic overall.


Keep in mind drivers these days are seeking the 300-350 Mike runs so they can get home every night. I don't know how the guys doing cartage runs make it, I looked into it and just couldn't make the math work for me.

I also remember all the controversy when the ports on Cali where going to require drivers pulling out of them to get the 07 tier 4 trucks or loose there contracts. Most said the pay didn't justify the truck cost or the upgrades to tier4 emissions.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

We pulled a lot of port trucks out there. 
There were some subsidies.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> I don't need a copy of the US rules. If you had read my post, you would know that I'm well versed because my company operates in both countries.
> 
> You continue to skirt my question, which related to your comment that in order to avoid an odd shift in driving hours, drivers just hang out for a couple extra hours. How do you propose that will be logged and how does wasting a few hours each day alleviate driver fatigue or improve productivity?


I'm not familiar with logging rules, or even what that entails. If it seems like I am skirting your question, it is because I do not know how to properly respond, and it would be appreciated if you took that into consideration. 

Those extra hours would not be wasted; they could be used for sleep, running errands, conducting business, making dinner, and a variety of other tasks. 

I am curious - what exactly DO your drivers do with those hours? They can't be driving for longer than 11 hours in a 14 window followed by another period of rest. So, tell us what your drivers do to utilize that time bracket, and we will go from there


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> We pulled a lot of port trucks out there.
> There were some subsidies.


Yep my understanding about $10,000 per truck on a $100, 000 truck that doesn't even give you a down payment. I'm sure you saw some of those trucks, most were old mechanical engine trucks, so you couldn't even adapt the emissions upgrades to them. Heck a couple of the trucker sites I'm on, those based in California are still under the wavers.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> I'm not familiar with logging rules, or even what that entails. If it seems like I am skirting your question, it is because I do not know how to properly respond, and it would be appreciated if you took that into consideration.
> 
> Those extra hours would not be wasted; they could be used for sleep, running errands, conducting business, making dinner, and a variety of other tasks.
> 
> I am curious - what exactly DO your drivers do with those hours? They can't be driving for longer than 11 hours in a 14 window followed by another period of rest. So, tell us what your drivers do to utilize that time bracket, and we will go from there


No you couldn't really use that time for any of those things, once your 14 hour clock starts it doesn't really stop for anything, except you can extend it somewhat with split sleeper birth, but split sleeper is a mine field most drivers aren't willing to navigate, because it's very easy to go into violation.

How are you going to run errands, your trucks getting loaded/unloaded, true you can make dinner if you have the setup, conducting business means you are supposed to log on duty, so that doesn't really help.

In my case I have a lot of wasted time, but I bid the loads with that figure included.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

coolrunnin said:


> No you couldn't really use that time for any of those things, once your 14 hour clock starts it doesn't really stop for anything, except you can extend it somewhat with split sleeper birth, but split sleeper is a mine field most drivers aren't willing to navigate, because it's very easy to go into violation.
> 
> How are you going to run errands, your trucks getting loaded/unloaded, true you can make dinner if you have the setup, conducting business means you are supposed to log on duty, so that doesn't really help.
> 
> In my case I have a lot of wasted time, but I bid the loads with that figure included.


So you are agreeing with me that you essentially just waste those 3 hours?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> So you are agreeing with me that you essentially just waste those 3 hours?


Nope, not if I can in any way prevent that, but it's hard to explain these concepts when we don't have a frame of reference to start on. Do you consider time wasted or lost without compensation to be a viable means of making a living? 

Cause from your responses that appears to be the case!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> So you are agreeing with me that you essentially just waste those 3 hours?


He's telling you that log books have very strict criteria that must be met to remain compliant and if not compliant, a driver can be put out of service for a period of time. Trucks aren't ideal for running errands but if you're in the driver's seat, it would need to be logged as driving time. 

My local drivers still require log books but generally put in a 12 - 14 hour day but they have no time to time to waste, they move from site to site. If one of them has a long distance load, they need two days off to reset their log books. Basically a log book is divided into 4 categories (off duty, sleeper berth, on duty and driving). Not all drivers are long haul and not all long haul drivers fall under one simple category. Some may travel across the country with a single load, others may have many off loading and reloading points and others require permits that have strict criteria as to where they may travel and at what time that travel must happen. 

Quite often drivers are paid per mile or a percentage of the truck rate so the only time a driver is making money is if the truck is moving but some drivers have more fluid deadlines than others but most would rather get the job done legally and get home to their family than sit in a truck stop killing time.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> That refers to a post where PW said " what ladder? You drive a truck"
> It might be accurate but it carries intonations that sound rude.
> PW later explained it in a much more friendly sounding way.


Sorry that the truth hurts. I'm a field technician and work on equipment out in the elements. Technician=fancy word for mechanic. My pay may increase and my knowledge may increase but I will always be a field hand nothing more and nothing less. Can I go into management sure for a pay cut, but then I am management not technician. 

Would you call your doctor rude if he walked in and straight up told you that you were severely obese and it is having lots of issues with your body to include your hygiene? Call it like it is, if you don't like it Don't be a truck driver.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It's not the truth that's rude so much as how it's said. 
"What ladder? You are a truck driver. "
Implies there is no difference in skills or worth between the first day with a CDL skill and those of a guy bringing a quarter million pounds over Loveland. 
In my case I am one of about 100 drivers in the nation ( and probably the world) qualified to do what I do. I often supervise a crew while doing my job. I also pre and post consult. 
I'm proud of driving trucks , it got me where I am and even though my other enterprises would allow me to never set a hand in one again I still do from time to time. 
It was the ladder that allowed me to do that.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> He's telling you that log books have very strict criteria that must be met to remain compliant and if not compliant, a driver can be put out of service for a period of time. Trucks aren't ideal for running errands but if you're in the driver's seat, it would need to be logged as driving time.
> 
> My local drivers still require log books but generally put in a 12 - 14 hour day but they have no time to time to waste, they move from site to site. If one of them has a long distance load, they need two days off to reset their log books. Basically a log book is divided into 4 categories (off duty, sleeper berth, on duty and driving). Not all drivers are long haul and not all long haul drivers fall under one simple category. Some may travel across the country with a single load, others may have many off loading and reloading points and others require permits that have strict criteria as to where they may travel and at what time that travel must happen.
> 
> Quite often drivers are paid per mile or a percentage of the truck rate so the only time a driver is making money is if the truck is moving but some drivers have more fluid deadlines than others but most would rather get the job done legally and get home to their family than sit in a truck stop killing time.


So what do long haul drivers do with the extra time in the 14 hour window? Are you saying your drivers keep driving for the whole period? Again, what are your drivers doing with those three hours while staying compliant?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> So you are agreeing with me that you essentially just waste those 3 hours?


 No you don't waste those hours you go off duty and reset the clock to get more driving time. 
Of course that off duty time Is more than enough so some of that is a waste. 

Of course what really happens is guys just run illegal if they think they can get away with it and write new logs to make it look legal.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol well *my perception* of your post is it is both rude and inaccurate.


You like to play the "rude" card quite often when someone disagrees.
We've seen it a lot. You stole the "intonation" term from someone else.



AmericanStand said:


> By *leaving out* a few pertinent details you have manage to get the point backwards.
> While roads fanning out from the terminal may experience a increase in traffic for a certain distance overall there will be fewer miles driven by trucks. Thus less traffic overall.


I didn't leave out any details.
I showed some actual data vs unsubstantiated opinions.

Unless those containers come from ships, trucks will have to drive them to a rail yard as well as haul them away.

There won't be "fewer miles driven" by trucks unless the trains go to each factory and also to each end user.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> In my case *I am one* of about 100 drivers in the nation ( and probably the world) qualified to do what I do


And the only one who has shot "thousands" of dogs too. 
And a pilot...
And a 25 year shepherd and farmer.......
You must be about 190 years old to have all that experience.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> No you don't waste those hours you go off duty and reset the clock to get more driving time.
> Of course that off duty time Is more than enough so some of that is a waste.
> 
> Of course what really happens is guys just run illegal if they think they can get away with it and write new logs to make it look legal.


But you can't work longer than 14 hours at a time and 11 hours of driving at a time. So what you're telling me is that truckers are dishonest.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> But you can't work longer than 14 hours at a time and 11 hours of driving at a time. So what you're telling me is that truckers are dishonest.


Let's say you started your day at 0600 with a 15 min. Pre-Trip Inspection start driving at 0615 took your 8 hour break at 1200 for 30 min. ( this even tho you log as off duty counts against your 14 hr.) Then resume driving and quit driving at 1845. You can resume driving at 0445 the next day


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> But you can't work longer than 14 hours at a time and 11 hours of driving at a time. So what you're telling me is that truckers are dishonest.


Lol well yes people often are when choosing between taking care of their family and stupid rules. 
But you can legally take your 10 hours off duty any time you want and that restarts your duty and driving time.
So if you work a 1/4 hour pretrip drive 4 hours take a 1/2 off duty and drive 4 more after just 8 3/4 hours you can take. 10 hours off and reset available hours to drive and work to 11 and 14 available.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> And the only one who has shot "thousands" of dogs too.
> And a pilot...
> And a 25 year shepherd and farmer.......
> You must be about 190 years old to have all that experience.


Lol well it feels that way sometimes. 
By the way my resume has a lot more than that on it. 
Lots of people do multiple things at once.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I didn't leave out any details.
> I showed some actual data vs unsubstantiated opinions.
> 
> Unless those containers come from ships, trucks will have to drive them to a rail yard as well as haul them away.
> ...


You have to consider the entire process. 
Those trucks won't suddenly come into being at the terminal The loads were going from A to B either that terminal allows them to get closer to the destination by rail or it enables a journey by rail that was previously done entirely by road. 
Either way fewer total miles by road.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

coolrunnin said:


> Let's say you started your day at 0600 with a 15 min. Pre-Trip Inspection start driving at 0615 took your 8 hour break at 1200 for 30 min. ( this even tho you log as off duty counts against your 14 hr.) Then resume driving and quit driving at 1845. You can resume driving at 0445 the next day


You should have stopped driving at 1815, and you also stuck 12 hours of driving in. Is this how you usually drive?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> You should have stopped driving at 1815, and you also stuck 12 hours of driving in. Is this how you usually drive?


Oops my bad should of been 1815, the rest doesn't deserve an answer, we have tried to explain to you but apparently you are incapable of understanding, good luck in your future endeavors.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

coolrunnin said:


> Oops my bad should of been 1815, the rest doesn't deserve an answer, we have tried to explain to you but apparently you are incapable of understanding, good luck in your future endeavors.


Even at that, you drove for 11.5 hours. If you include the pre drive inspection, you're still 15 minutes over. If you can't do basic math, don't blame it on me.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You like to play the "rude" card quite often when someone disagrees.
> We've seen it a lot. You stole the "intonation" term from someone else.


 Lol not when they disagree , when they are rude. You are right I didn't create the word intonation, but I didn't realize the use of it was theft. 

I'm on a mission to make the world a nicer place.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> Even at that, you drove for 11.5 hours. If you include the pre drive inspection, you're still 15 minutes over. If you can't do basic math, don't blame it on me.


How is doing a pre-trip driving? hard to look under the hood and the rig when it's moving.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> Even at that, you drove for 11.5 hours. If you include the pre drive inspection, you're still 15 minutes over. If you can't do basic math, don't blame it on me.


I don't feel you fully understand the legal driving requirements or actual log books. Pre & post trip falls in the 'on duty' as is loading and unloading, fueling trucks, etc. Driving time is actual time spent driving so what you're not seeing is that 11.5 driving hours isn't exactly an 11.5 hour day. The end result is that at the end of each day, a driver must add off duty, sleeper berth, driving and on duty and account for the entire 24 hour period. 

As to my comment regarding my city drivers, they are certainly compliant and all logs are audited. Our drivers deliver many pieces of equipment in a day and log books legally reflect their on duty time spent loading and unload equipment, driving time.

I can understand not understanding how log books actually work but it's probably not a good idea to brand people unethical or cheats unless you have facts on your side.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wr said:


> I don't feel you fully understand the legal driving requirements or actual log books. Pre & post trip falls in the 'on duty' as is loading and unloading, fueling trucks, etc. Driving time is actual time spent driving so what you're not seeing is that 11.5 driving hours isn't exactly an 11.5 hour day. The end result is that at the end of each day, a driver must add off duty, sleeper berth, driving and on duty and account for the entire 24 hour period.
> 
> As to my comment regarding my city drivers, they are certainly compliant and all logs are audited. Our drivers deliver many pieces of equipment in a day and log books legally reflect their on duty time spent loading and unload equipment, driving time.
> 
> I can understand not understanding how log books actually work but it's probably not a good idea to brand people unethical or cheats unless you have facts on your side.


Thanks for the clarification. As previously stated, I'm not very well qualified to discuss the matter of log books, etc. However, thanks for the clarification on the time allottment. Further, I have not branded anyone a cheat or unethical.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol not when they disagree , when they are rude. You are right I didn't create the word intonation, but I didn't realize the use of it was theft.


Not so much "theft" as "parroting".
I expected the denial though.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So now I'm not allowed to use words or ideas others have ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> So now I'm not allowed to use words or ideas others have ?


I didn't say anything about what anyone is "allowed" to do.
That's you seeing things not there.

I only pointed out the lack of originality.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You used the word "stole" 
You do know what that means right ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You used the word "stole"
> You do know what that means right ?


Yes, in this context it means you used it only after you heard someone else use it a couple of days ago.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol OK I plead guilty as charged. 
I can learn. 
Worse yet I plan on continuing my sinful ways and using stolen words in the future. 
In fact the chances are good I may steal again !


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## Harrier (Mar 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> You used the word "stole"
> You do know what that means right ?


We have to make sure not to engage in "cultural appropriation".


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> But you can't work longer than 14 hours at a time and 11 hours of driving at a time. *So what you're telling me is that truckers are dishonest.*


Naw! What on earth would give you that idea? I'll admit I fudged my books a time or two.....or three or four.....times a week. Even if no other driver will admit it here.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> I'm not familiar with logging rules, or even what that entails. If it seems like I am skirting your question, it is because I do not know how to properly respond, and it would be appreciated if you took that into consideration.
> 
> Those extra hours would not be wasted; they could be used for sleep, running errands, conducting business, making dinner, and a variety of other tasks.
> 
> I am curious - what exactly DO your drivers do with those hours? They can't be driving for longer than 11 hours in a 14 window followed by another period of rest. So, tell us what your drivers do to utilize that time bracket, and we will go from there


Freight is so variable it doesn't meet the one size fits all that federal regulation assumes. Along with that drivers vary physically and mentally. Lots of warehouses do not expeditiously unload drivers which complicates hours of service. Drivers are also not covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Darren said:


> Freight is so variable it doesn't meet the one size fits all that federal regulation assumes. Along with that drivers vary physically and mentally. Lots of warehouses do not expeditiously unload drivers which complicates hours of service. Drivers are also not covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act.


Why are they not covered?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> Why are they not covered?


So that they are not subject to minimum wage.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

How Do I said:


> Naw! What on earth would give you that idea? I'll admit I fudged my books a time or two.....or three or four.....times a week. Even if no other driver will admit it here.


The world is changing, though. There are quite a few truckers that are now forced into using electronic logs that they cannot "fudge". I've known of a few that quit trucking because of it. I suspect it's going to become much more prevalent in years to come, and harder to get around.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bellyman said:


> The world is changing, though. There are quite a few truckers that are now forced into using electronic logs that they cannot "fudge". I've known of a few that quit trucking because of it. I suspect it's going to become much more prevalent in years to come, and harder to get around.


Dec, 2017 eld's are mandated for 2000 and newer trucks


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

How Do I said:


> Naw! What on earth would give you that idea? I'll admit I fudged my books a time or two.....or three or four.....times a week. Even if no other driver will admit it here.


 Lol imagine that !,thousands of people in a industry where the regulations don't make sense lying to the government in order to make a better living for their families and give the public what they need?


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## Wis Bang 2 (Jan 12, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Well they only had 11 HOURS logged off duty. The issuing officer claimed that since they didn't log any sleeper time they could have spent the time in the casino.
> That's the basis the citation was issued on.
> And yes we know it legal to spend you off duty time in a casino but that's what the officer said.


Data Q the citations, were they given w/ a roadside inspection report?


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## Wis Bang 2 (Jan 12, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> Why are they not covered?


Staggers act of 1937, we don't pay OT till after 50 hours, legally...A few years ago they tried to address this, I know in NJ as long as the base rate is more than 1.5 times the minimum wage, we don't need to pay overtime


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Many,Most? drivers are not paid by the hour but by the mile. 
That key thing is probably the largest contributor to unsafe driving in the trucking industry. 
It works backwards against safety. 
Cutting across Wyoming at a legal 80 mph a driver is making his maximum income it's easy driving wide-open spaces little traffic and often times if you did go off the road a mile or two you could simply steer back to the highway no damage done. 
New Jersey traffic in a blizzard at night stuck in A non-sleeper cab truck. With a 7 AM appointment. You are making maybe 1 mph so less than a dollar an hour with a huge incentive to do all you can to be there on time because you will not be paid for waiting time. Pay by the mile should be a crime.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

From my German Autobahn perspective at this here in the US...i think trucks should have a regulated top speed...with the amount of weight and responsibility that comes with it combined with horrible untrained and zig zacking car and truck drivers in jersey and surrounding states, trucks should be definitely limited to the two right lanes or just right lane if less than three lanes, governed to 55 miles and 8 hour driving including a pretty strict technical check on regular basis...i see some trucks cruising around, that should not even be ON the street...no offense to anyone here...please dont get me wrong...Tractor-trailor and such are just pretty dangerous toys when in wrong hands or un maintained condition...40 tons dont stop on pure will...


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Many,Most? drivers are not paid by the hour but by the mile.
> That key thing is probably the largest contributor to unsafe driving in the trucking industry.
> It works backwards against safety.
> Cutting across Wyoming at a legal 80 mph a driver is making his maximum income it's easy driving wide-open spaces little traffic and often times if you did go off the road a mile or two you could simply steer back to the highway no damage done.
> New Jersey traffic in a blizzard at night stuck in A non-sleeper cab truck. With a 7 AM appointment. You are making maybe 1 mph so less than a dollar an hour with a huge incentive to do all you can to be there on time because you will not be paid for waiting time. Pay by the mile should be a crime.


You yave said you own a trucking company, how do you pay?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

I have wondered how long it will be before trucks are governed to the point where when the speed limit is 55, they physically cannot make that truck go over 55, or whatever the speed limit is. Or cars, for that matter. I suspect the technology is already here, only not implemented.


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## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

Bellyman said:


> I have wondered how long it will be before trucks are governed to the point where when the speed limit is 55, they physically cannot make that truck go over 55, or whatever the speed limit is. Or cars, for that matter. I suspect the technology is already here, only not implemented.


The technology is there and used by most of the big haulers. You generally only find owner/operators we trucks that are not governed for a specific speed. I have been in truck maintenance for over 40 years and I can tell you many tales about how truck drivers could "override" the set speed. I found it with drivers that got paid by the route. It was a fixed amount so if they could get it done faster they made more per hour.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Bellyman said:


> I have wondered how long it will be before trucks are governed to the point where when the speed limit is 55, they physically cannot make that truck go over 55, or whatever the speed limit is. Or cars, for that matter. I suspect the technology is already here, only not implemented.


Back when I was driving the Speed Limit was 55MPH. Our Trucks were dialed back to where they wouldn't run much faster.

It was crazy trying to drive these in the Mountains, you start up a little Hill and you were grabbing Gears, you could not get a run at a hill because it just wasn't there.

We got paid by the mile, if the Truck was moving we were making money. We got so much for Finger Printing Loads but most time what you got paid wouldn't cover per hour to do this and wouldn't be enough to hire a Lumper.

One time I had already unloaded a Load after driving 10 hours, drove across town to pick up a Load. Spent 18 Hours Loading it. At that time I could have showed 17 Hours sleep and been legal. Thing is I was just plain worn out. Called dispatch told them I was going to sleep and would called them when I was rested.

Thing is most drivers when they get tired will get some sleep but Dispatch won't put up with Loads being Late and if Driver can't figure how to get it done they are out of there.

I would be gone 6-8 weeks at a time Home for 3 days. No family life. But back then I made good money. '85 made $48K.

big rockpile


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> You yave said you own a trucking company, how do you pay?


The company pays by the trip
The unloading appointment is usually a week not a hour or even a day.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Meinecke said:


> trucks should be definitely limited to the two right lanes or just right lane if less than three lanes,...


 I've often wondered where this ignorance came from ?
Surely no one that's ever watched the interaction of traffic would have invented it. 
After many years and millions of miles on the road I am firmly convinced that if anything should be restricted it should be the automobiles. 
However admitting that there is not a political force for that and people seem to feel the trucks need to be restricted they should be restricted to the left lanes. 
By restricting trucks to the left lanes they would not interfere with cars merging on and off the highway. This seems to be something that most automobile drivers are incapable of doing correctly. 
Trucks in the left lane's would move along at a good rate of speed. Of course to do this well you would have to restrict automobiles from using those truck lanes. Quite often it seems like one slow-moving automobile will jam up truck traffic and thus all traffic for miles and miles.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> I've often wondered where this ignorance came from ?
> Surely no one that's ever watched the interaction of traffic would have invented it.
> After many years and millions of miles on the road I am firmly convinced that if anything should be restricted it should be the automobiles.
> However admitting that there is not a political force for that and people seem to feel the trucks need to be restricted they should be restricted to the left lanes.
> ...


Yelp go through any City stay in the Hammer Lane, keep going and don't clog up the works.

I'm still dealing with turning Trucks back to 55MPH.

big rockpile


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

big rockpile said:


> Back when I was driving the Speed Limit was 55MPH. Our Trucks were dialed back to where they wouldn't run much faster.
> 
> It was crazy trying to drive these in the Mountains, you start up a little Hill and you were grabbing Gears, you could not get a run at a hill because it just wasn't there.
> 
> ...


You could have shown 17 hours, but you wouldnt have by any means been legal.

You have some dandy trucker stories


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> The company pays by the trip
> The unloading appointment is usually a week not a hour or even a day.


So help me understand the week unloading is figured in or you just have to suck it up.

It was my understanding you did driveaway.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

big rockpile said:


> Yelp go through any City stay in the Hammer Lane, keep going and don't clog up the works.
> 
> I'm still dealing with turning Trucks back to 55MPH.
> 
> big rockpile


Primes the only ones running 55 still and even their trucks run 63.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> So help me understand the week unloading is figured in or you just have to suck it up.


It's not a "week to unload".
It's a one week time span when the delivery will be made.
It's a totally unrealistic way of doing business, and isn't done by any companies I've ever heard of.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

I wouldn't want to limit all trucks to 55mph all of the time. What I was trying to say was limiting them (and all other vehicles, for that matter) to the posted speed limit. When it's 55, you can't do 70. When it's 70, you can't do 90. When it's 35, you can't do 60. You can do no more than the limit. When the limit is 80, you can go 80. When the limit is 50, you can go 50. When the limit is 20, you WILL be 20 or under. 

But, I suspect the revenuers wouldn't like that much. They have to figure out some other way of coming up with the money they wouldn't be collecting in speeding tickets. Plus, people are way to independent to be confined but such a thing as a speed limit. Such a thing would be equated to prison in some circles.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not a "week to unload".
> It's a one week time span when the delivery will be made.
> It's a totally unrealistic way of doing business, and isn't done by any companies I've ever heard of.


 Lol yeah there are a lot of things you haven't heard of. 
For instance did you know our trucks can be up to 96 feet long?
or that out of three semi tractors we only have to have three axles with brakes on them?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think a better safer system would be had if ever driver had to take the same test. 
If a ten minute break was required every two hours. 
If drivers hard to be paid for every hour away from home. 
If drivers could work all the wanted in a day after eight hours off with six of the same hours as the night before. 
If all trucks were required to have enough space to lay down. 
If loading and unloading by a driver must be paid by the respective shippers and receivers at the local area government prevailing wage.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

I was saying limit the trucks to the right lanes...but of course meant , that cars should behave like they should be trained...what they obviously not are...and only pass left and move over to right afterwards...
No car should drive more than a mile on left lane...the left lane is for passing only...not for cruising through the state.
But i might be a little spoiled from Germany and police that pulls you over from driving left and blocking traffic or pull you over and losing license for passing right...good old days...so never vote me for president or governor...would be a fair but extreme strict life...smile


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol yeah there are a lot of things you haven't heard of.
> For instance did you know our trucks can be up to 96 feet long?
> or that out of three semi tractors we only have to have three axles with brakes on them?


Never heard of a shipping company say it will be here the week of august 12th for instance. If there were any that did they probably shaped up to stay in business. Most places will look elsewhere if you can't set a delivery date. My dad runs a DC and if he doesn't have an exact date the shipper will arrive and deliver he calls the next. Most companies aren't governing their trucks for safety but for fuel savings.


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## In The Woods (Apr 27, 2017)

It wasn't too long ago that Ohio had a split speed limit - trucks 55mph and cars 65mph. They just changed it to be 65mph for all in 2009.

I found this more dangerous and frustrating with the spilt limit. Cars would come up on you too fast when not paying attention.

The last part of my dedicated mail run was from Cleveland to Columbus leaving Cleveland at 10:15. At 55mph I found it very hard to stay attentive.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Never heard of a shipping company say it will be here the week of august 12th for instance. If there were any that did they probably shaped up to stay in business. Most places will look elsewhere if you can't set a delivery date. My dad runs a DC and if he doesn't have an exact date the shipper will arrive and deliver he calls the next. Most companies aren't governing their trucks for safety but for fuel savings.


Thats not what he meant, he meant it could take up to a week to unload. Hes doing over dimension cargo I gather.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Never heard of a shipping company say it will be here the week of august 12th for instance. If there were any that did they probably shaped up to stay in business. Most places will look elsewhere if you can't set a delivery date. My dad runs a DC and if he doesn't have an exact date the shipper will arrive and deliver he calls the next. Most companies aren't governing their trucks for safety but for fuel savings.


 The vehicle delivery business is a bit different than most. 
Usually the customer tells you what day the trucks will be ready or states they are ready now. 
Then it takes a few days to recruit a contractor and get him there. Then it's not uncommon to take a few days for the seller to actually get the trucks ready to be picked up. 
Then a day or two preparing them for transport. 
Of course breakdowns happen along the way. 
So yes a delivery week is fine.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

In The Woods said:


> It wasn't too long ago that Ohio had a split speed limit - trucks 55mph and cars 65mph. They just changed it to be 65mph for all in 2009.
> 
> I found this more dangerous and frustrating with the spilt limit. Cars would come up on you too fast when not paying attention.
> 
> The last part of my dedicated mail run was from Cleveland to Columbus leaving Cleveland at 10:15. At 55mph I found it very hard to stay attentive.


I agree with you on that one. It doesn't make sense to have two different speed limits on the same road. Individual speed limits for specific lanes would make more sense than the splits like you mention. 

In the case you mention above (trucks 55, cars 65), I don't think I've ever seen the trucks actually doing 55, they're usually closer to 65, traveling along with the slower cars with a few that will ride the cars doing between 65 and 70. 55 just isn't reality. And funny thing is, I have never seen at truck pulled over in a place like that. Some idiot in a 4 wheeler that wants to do 85, yes. A truck, no, despite their obviously going not less than 10 over.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> The vehicle delivery business is a bit different than most.
> Usually the customer tells you what day the trucks will be ready or states they are ready now.
> Then it takes a few days to recruit a contractor and get him there. Then it's not uncommon to take a few days for the seller to actually get the trucks ready to be picked up.
> Then a day or two preparing them for transport.
> ...


So you have a truck waiting there while all this is done? Or you get there when they are ready? Vehicle delivery is a small niche in the trucking industry, therefore hardly applies to the vast majority or how trucking works.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

No the vehicals we drive are the ones we deliver. 

You are correct that it's a odd niche. 
That's one of the points I was making to BBF. 

On the other hand when there are less than one hundred people in the nation that do something you can negotiate better terms.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I think a better safer system would be had if ever driver had to take the same test.
> If a ten minute break was required every two hours.
> If drivers hard to be paid for every hour away from home.
> If drivers could work all the wanted in a day after eight hours off with six of the same hours as the night before.
> ...


What drivers take different tests?

I can't imagine anyone driving much more than 2 hours without at least a restroom break why mandate it?

I can't imagine why a 1099 employer should be saying anything about pay.

Your going to have to clarify that one.

Why have the added weight if you don't need it?

If your not getting paid for your time it's on you. What government pay has to do with it I have no idea.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Never heard of a shipping company say it will be here the week of august 12th for instance. If there were any that did they probably shaped up to stay in business. Most places will look elsewhere if you can't set a delivery date. My dad runs a DC and if he doesn't have an exact date the shipper will arrive and deliver he calls the next. Most companies aren't governing their trucks for safety but for fuel savings.


Agreed with all this, AS is telling trucker stories again...lol


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

There is a lot here to sift, but here is my take on it:

The first problem is that back when, people became truck drivers because they wanted to drive a truck and learned from a truck driver. My grandpa drove from Indiana to the west coast back in the 80s and alternated alone time with training new drivers (which is how he avoided driving team all the time). A new driver who was going to make it drove with him until the youngster was ready to be trusted. Some were sent home on arrival in Indiana. A few were kicked out of the truck wherever and put on a bus to Indiana. Today, someone who sees an ad dangling more money than he is making flipping burgers at McD's goes to a driving school and in a few weeks is worked through the test, issued a freshly printed license, told he is a 'professional' and put in a truck. God grant safety to those he drives near. If he makes it a few months without destroying the truck, he may well be made a trainer--yes, there are a lot of trainer/trainee teams on the road now with trainers who have never driven a truck on snow.

The second problem is the politics of regulation. Few of the regulations are actually based on safety. Most are based on larger companies who can afford lobbyists and in-house compliance departments purchasing regulations which squelch smaller operators and make their less efficient methods economically viable. A prime example would be the hours of service regulations. Right now, I cannot manage to make a 14 hour straight run nor do I require 10 consecutive hours of rest. I can easily drive 5 hours (less than half the daily allowance of driving time), rest for about that long, and go back to work, which was legal at one time. Human beings are neither machines nor standardized products yet are being forced to act as such. Now, throw in electronic logs and you are forced to stop when not tired, especially if you have been waiting for an extended time, spend 8 of your 10 hours staring at the ceiling, finally manage to get to sleep, and then have to wake up and go dead tired. Safety? I don't think so.

The third problem is that every driver is a target of multiple government agencies for reasons not pertaining to safety. Our governor earlier this year made a segue from pitching his fuel tax increase to declaring commercial vehicle enforcement an underutilized revenue stream. So nice of him to publicly admit that his goal is not public safety but rather to pick our pockets. I nearly fell off my chair when I saw him quoted in the Indianapolis paper.

The fourth problem is that truck drivers are a small enough portion of the population that our votes don't speak loudly enough to be heard by politicians alternately taking money from the largest companies and hearing the votes of people who want trucking regulated in ways that do not promote safety but rather their personal convenience leading to some irrational ideas in circulation.

The fifth problem is that you cannot effectively control irresponsible people through mechanical limitations. This applies to setting governed speeds on trucks just as much as the elimination of interchangeable magazines from the early Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield rifles may have conserved ammunition usage while greatly assisting the British Army to take a pounding at the hands of the Boers with clip-loading Mausers. The bottom line is that if a person is too irresponsible for the job, he should not be doing the job. Trying to use artificial controls is not a workable solution for that problem unless you have numbers that will allow for the inherent inefficiency it causes, and it still doesn't solve the problem, it merely compensates for it.

The sixth problem is that the patently stupid regulations, written by people who couldn't drive a truck if it were required to save their eternal souls, are driving out the most capable people who are tired of being screwed with leaving the road to the most dangerous--and don't even get me started on immigrants who think that since they drove like a demolition derby in the old country they should here as well.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> What drivers take different tests?
> 
> I can't imagine anyone driving much more than 2 hours without at least a restroom break why mandate it?
> 
> ...


CDL drivers take a different test than car drivers. 
Does it make sense that a driver is fined for using the wrong sighn sand flags on a oversize load if the car drivers don't know what they mean ?
Or that a person can drive a motor home as big as any commercial vehical without demonstrating a ability to maneuver it ?
Even though you can't imagine someone driving for more than two hours lots of people do it. There are plenty of urine filled jugs along the highway that attest to not needing to stop for a bathroom break. 
But. People need to change their focus to stay sharp. 
Enough space to lay down is needed because life doesn't work as planned. Weather stops you. People unexpectedly get tired ,trucks breakdown. 
That additional space won't add a 100 pounds of weight. It's worth it.

The thing about loading and unloading is because shippers and receivers tend to waste drivers time. That leads to drivers lieing about the amount of time they spend doing that so they can drive hours that do pay and complete trips. 
That leads to fatigued drivers. 
That's also the reason drivers should be paid ever minute they are away from home so that companies can't heap other duties on drivers and drivers don't have a incentive to hide them.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> CDL drivers take a different test than car drivers.
> Does it make sense that a driver is fined for using the wrong sighn sand flags on a oversize load if the car drivers don't know what they mean ?
> Or that a person can drive a motor home as big as any commercial vehical without demonstrating a ability to maneuver it ?
> Even though you can't imagine someone driving for more than two hours lots of people do it. There are plenty of urine filled jugs along the highway that attest to not needing to stop for a bathroom break.
> ...


Some of what you say is true most we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Agreed with all this, AS is telling trucker stories again...lol


 Good grief it's easy to check just call a truck moving company like truck movers.com. Tell them you have 20 trucks in Springfield mo and you need them moved to baker Washington. Then ask what day they will deliver them. 
I hear that household goods movers. Also use a target week but I haven't been in that section of the industry my so I'm not sure.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Some of what you say is true most we will just have to agree to disagree.


 Did you notice that first post where I said better safer. ?
Not perfect or cheaper or easier?

I hate that anything needs to be mandated all laws are failures in my eyes. 
But the trucking industry is a place where common sense mandates some rules. 

So what are we disagreeing about ?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Good grief it's easy to check just call a truck moving company like truck movers.com. Tell them you have 20 trucks in Springfield mo and you need them moved to baker Washington. Then ask what day they will deliver them.
> I hear that household goods movers. Also use a target week but I haven't been in that section of the industry my so I'm not sure.


Well i just called a buddy that had 15 trucks delivered, he bought them at a Richie brothers auction in nebraska, they gave him a delivery date of Aug. 4. Got all of them on Aug. 4. 

Guess you need to work on the business model.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Did you notice that first post where I said better safer. ?
> Not perfect or cheaper or easier?
> 
> I hate that anything needs to be mandated all laws are failures in my eyes.
> ...


Better and safer are perceptions yours are oinr mine are another


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Cool runnings

I am impressed who delivered them for him ?
What part of safer and. Better do we disagree on ?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Good grief it's easy to check just call a truck moving company like truck movers.com. Tell them you have 20 trucks in Springfield mo and you need them moved to baker Washington. Then ask what day they will deliver them.
> I hear that household goods movers. Also use a target week but I haven't been in that section of the industry my so I'm not sure.


They don't, the pack your stuff and say this is the day we will deliver or it will go into storage if they are moving multiple houses at once like many contracted by the military do for PCS and EAS moves. Every piece of equipment that the company I work for which are all oversized and generally ship in multiple loads always make it the day they say they will be there. It's hard to coordinate a crane if you have a week and not a day. 

On top of all that, there are laws because moron truck drivers push it and wind up killing people. Everyone knows that truck drivers take a different test. Why should a driver be paid every minute away from the house? I wouldn't pay someone to sleep, I get per diem when I stay in a hotel but I don't get paid every minute I am gone and I work harder than 99.9% of truck drivers out there. Truck driving is a job just like any other, pays different and entails different duties but not special treatment. If you want to be paid by the hour drive a daily route.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

A driver should be paid every moment he is away from the house because it's fair. 
It's not his fault the company can't put continuous load together. 
As a employee he shouldn't have to bear the risk. 
That's also the reason pay by the mile shouldn't be legal for employees.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> A driver should be paid every moment he is away from the house because it's fair.
> It's not his fault the company can't put continuous load together.
> As a employee he shouldn't have to bear the risk.
> That's also the reason pay by the mile shouldn't be legal for employees.


Says the guy who pays by 1099, you have zero credibility in pay issues

And when was life ever fair.

I put together continuous loads all rhr time but many are multi day, most companies do.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> CDL drivers take a different test than car drivers.
> Does it make sense that a driver is fined for using the wrong sighn sand flags on a oversize load if the car drivers don't know what they mean ?
> Or that a person can drive a motor home as big as any commercial vehical without demonstrating a ability to maneuver it ?
> Even though you can't imagine someone driving for more than two hours lots of people do it. There are plenty of urine filled jugs along the highway that attest to not needing to stop for a bathroom break.
> ...


Sign sizes and descriptions are so other drivers can see them, you need to try harder to follow the simple laws i guess


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I will agree about the RV license, they really outta have to get a cdl


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> I will agree about the RV license, they really outta have to get a cdl


Not that I disagree but if you do that are you going to make the people pulling 36ft boats behind a crew cab dually get one, or the guy pulling his 46' travel trailer? That's reason for weights instead of vehicle. My service truck tips the scales at 23k empty but because it is registered to 33k I have to have one. I'm over 26k anyway but my point is it goes by weight. 

This isn't directed to you, but DOT has actually done good and has probably saved more lives by pulling wreckless truckers off he road than most will admit. There's people here who believe any law is infringement and their ignorance in the matter is why there are laws. DOT has made my life miserable but at the end of the day they did their job just like I do mine and truckers do theirs.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> A driver should be paid every moment he is away from the house because it's fair.
> It's not his fault the company can't put continuous load together.
> As a employee he shouldn't have to bear the risk.
> That's also the reason pay by the mile shouldn't be legal for employees.


Are you clueless? If it was that good more people would do it. It's obviously legal and pretty much the standard of how it works. Why do you try to go against the grain of everything? Do you feel that the government has done you that wrong that every last thing you think is dumb and should be illegal? Get a grip and a hard dose of reality.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Not that I disagree but if you do that are you going to make the people pulling 36ft boats behind a crew cab dually get one, or the guy pulling his 46' travel trailer? That's reason for weights instead of vehicle. My service truck tips the scales at 23k empty but because it is registered to 33k I have to have one. I'm over 26k anyway but my point is it goes by weight.
> 
> *This isn't directed to you, but DOT has actually done good and has probably saved more lives by pulling wreckless truckers off he road than most will admit. *There's people here who believe any law is infringement and their ignorance in the matter is why there are laws. DOT has made my life miserable but at the end of the day they did their job just like I do mine and truckers do theirs.


I would have to disagree. My observation is that they have run off most of the good drivers who are capable of doing anything else who have been replaced with new people who, for the most part, have no business in a truck. At the end of the day they are a revenue machine and not much more. As I probably mentioned previously, or governor was even so brazen as to publicly declare commercial vehicle enforcement an 'underutilized revenue stream'. It will be a cold day someplace know for an extremely hot climate that I will believe that safety is on the short list of their concerns.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Not that I disagree but if you do that are you going to make the people pulling 36ft boats behind a crew cab dually get one, or the guy pulling his 46' travel trailer? That's reason for weights instead of vehicle. My service truck tips the scales at 23k empty but because it is registered to 33k I have to have one. I'm over 26k anyway but my point is it goes by weight.
> 
> This isn't directed to you, but DOT has actually done good and has probably saved more lives by pulling wreckless truckers off he road than most will admit. There's people here who believe any law is infringement and their ignorance in the matter is why there are laws. DOT has made my life miserable but at the end of the day they did their job just like I do mine and truckers do theirs.


I alot of this i actually agree with, but at the minimum it should bve like a motorcycle license, you gotta prove you can safely move your 60 ft. Of rv boat combo safely down the road.

How does weight really make a difference on ability to drive? Mine stops shorter and straighter loaded than empty.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> I alot of this i actually agree with, but at the minimum it should bve like a motorcycle license, you gotta prove you can safely move your 60 ft. Of rv boat combo safely down the road.
> 
> How does weight really make a difference on ability to drive? Mine stops shorter and straighter loaded than empty.


Not really sure why they do it that way. Big rigs are designed to stop better loaded vs empty. My truck drives and stops better with a 4K pound engine in the bed. I agree RV drivers need to do something more than get a drivers license but if under 26k they can't force them.....for now


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Not really sure why they do it that way. Big rigs are designed to stop better loaded vs empty. My truck drives and stops better with a 4K pound engine in the bed. I agree RV drivers need to do something more than get a drivers license but if under 26k they can't force them.....for now


On one hand the argument for additional requirements for driving larger heavier vehicles makes sense on the debate stage in practice it seems next to worthless. In my lifetime I have seen the requirements intensified dramatically while the quality of the average truck driver has dropped precipitously. It sounds good but in practice it is not working. I would say the fact that the test criteria are being made up by people who do not drive trucks and tend to demand flawless demonstration of wrote memorization of things not directly relevant to safe use of the vehicle is not helping. It seems that more government rarely solves anything.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Are you clueless? If it was that good more people would do it. It's obviously legal and pretty much the standard of how it works. Why do you try to go against the grain of everything? Do you feel that the government has done you that wrong that every last thing you think is dumb and should be illegal? Get a grip and a hard dose of reality.


 I don't think the trucking industry should bet special breaks that other industries don't. I think truckers are worthy of the same protections as other people. 
Just because it's legal doesn't make it the best way. 
I'd like the world to be better and don't mind discussing ways to achive that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> I don't think the trucking industry should bet special breaks that other industries don't. I think truckers are worthy of the same protections as other people.
> Just because it's legal doesn't make it the best way.
> I'd like the world to be better and don't mind discussing ways to achive that.


I don't know of any industry that pays for every hour an employee is away from home. Those that do work away are either paid a per diem allotment to cover their expenses or they are put up in camps. 

How is that so different from drivers?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Because the moment a driver drives out of his driveway he starts using his working time. 
The job is different in that most workers either get paid for hours thy are on the job or they can go home. 
Give a machine operater twelve unexpected hours off and he can work in the garden, build furniture or sleep with his wife. 
That's not usually a option for a driver away from home.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Because the moment a driver drives out of his driveway he starts using his working time.
> The job is different in that most workers either get paid for hours thy are on the job or they can go home.
> Give a machine operater twelve unexpected hours off and he can work in the garden, build furniture or sleep with his wife.
> That's not usually a option for a driver away from home.


It's not an option for me either when I am working 2.5 hours from home and my company puts me up in a hotel so I have less travel time to be able to accomplish more. I can't even drive my truck after I'm off to get food because I would be over on hours. I get per diem but not paid every minute I am away from home. If you can't charge it out it would be counter productive to profit. Simple economics.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Because the moment a driver drives out of his driveway he starts using his working time.
> The job is different in that most workers either get paid for hours thy are on the job or they can go home.
> Give a machine operater twelve unexpected hours off and he can work in the garden, build furniture or sleep with his wife.
> That's not usually a option for a driver away from home.


You are misinformed. There are many equipment operators, truck drivers and trades people working on projects nowhere near home and they are none are paid for hours away from home. They are also paid for the hours they work and more often than not, put up in a camp with no garden, no shop and no wife and the only way to get home is to fly out every 28 days.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I agree that many work in camps where their not paid for their off time. 
Don't those jobs usually pay more in compensation for that ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> I don't know of any industry that pays for every hour an employee is away from home. Those that do work away are either paid a per diem allotment to cover their expenses or they are put up in camps.
> 
> How is that so different from drivers?


I've gave that last line some thought. 
What's really different is when a guy goes to a camp to work he usually has some guarantee of income. 
For instance he may expect to work 28 days in a row 14 hours a day. 
Even if he spends hours or even days of his shift waiting he still expects to get paid for that time.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I agree that many work in camps where their not paid for their off time.
> Don't those jobs usually pay more in compensation for that ?


Did you sign up for the job knowing you weren't going to be paid to rest? If you did then you have no reason to complain, if you didn't them next time practice a little due diligence, plus have you never heard of per diem?


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

coolrunnin said:


> Did you sign up for the job knowing you weren't going to be paid to rest? If you did then you have no reason to complain, if you didn't them next time practice a little due diligence, plus have you never heard of per diem?


Well one thing for sure they would send me some place I would hope they would have me a Load out.

Was in Miami waited hours on a Load. Finally shut myself down by going to a Bar. Got sobered up found my own Load any time I wanted one going almost to the House.

Was in Minnesota had to pull my own Tooth because they wouldn't let me off to go to a Dentist. 

big rockpile


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Did you sign up for the job knowing you weren't going to be paid to rest? If you did then you have no reason to complain, if you didn't them next time practice a little due diligence, plus have you never heard of per diem?


 Rest ?
You mean when you get 40 hours of "rest"
Right after a full nights sleep ?
I don't actually have a problem with not getting paid for sleep time it's time they just waste that drivers need to be paid for.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

big rockpile said:


> Well one thing for sure they would send me some place I would hope they would have me a Load out.
> 
> Was in Miami waited hours on a Load. Finally shut myself down by going to a Bar. Got sobered up found my own Load any time I wanted one going almost to the House.
> 
> ...


Im really glad you dont drive anymore, you are a hazard.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Rest ?
> You mean when you get 40 hours of "rest"
> Right after a full nights sleep ?
> I don't actually have a problem with not getting paid for sleep time it's time they just waste that drivers need to be paid for.


I cant help it you cant plan your loads


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

coolrunnin said:


> I cant help it you cant plan your loads


I think you are missing his point. He was on time. They weren't. He got his time wasted without compensation.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

IndyDave said:


> I think you are missing his point. He was on time. They weren't. He got his time wasted without compensation.


Again if you dont know how to negotiate you probably sh ould just be happy i guess. I have never sat more than two hours without being paid and never will


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

coolrunnin said:


> Im really glad you dont drive anymore, you are a hazard.


???? In what way? They can't find a Load I'll wait.

big rockpile


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

big rockpile said:


> ???? In what way? They can't find a Load I'll wait.
> 
> big rockpile


Drinkin and truckin


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Im really glad you dont drive anymore, you are a hazard.





coolrunnin said:


> I cant help it you cant plan your loads


 Can't see how he would have been a hazard , how do you see his behavior as dangerous ?

I beginning to wonder if you actually know the trucking industry. 
What employee gets to plan their loads ? Part of being a employee is doing what you are told. 


I run into truckers all the time that tell me brand X is best but after talking with them I find out that is the only brand they have driven. 
It's that way in the rest of the industry a driver that has only pulled pigs seldom understands detention. A tanker yanker won't understand damage claims and lumping and unless you have delivered new semis you probably don't understand getting hit with damage claims a year after delivery.

It's great to have a perfect job and be able to get everything you want. But it's not that way for everybody.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Ive pulled flats, hopper, dry and reefer i know about detention I know about lumpers sadly i know little about damage claims.

But i do know how to amend or write a contract to benefit me ad much ad possible. I know not to work for someone else working someone else's rules


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

coolrunnin said:


> Ive pulled flats, hopper, dry and reefer i know about detention I know about lumpers sadly i know little about damage claims.
> 
> But i do know how to amend or write a contract to benefit me ad much ad possible. I know not to work for someone else working someone else's rules


Have u read brps posts thr guy is a dr iving hazard


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> But i do know how to amend or write a contract to benefit me ad much ad possible. I know not to work for someone else working someone else's rules


 Most truck driver employees don't do that.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

coolrunnin said:


> Drinkin and truckin


Who in the heck said I was Drinking and Trucking? If you read I shut myself down by going to the Bar, in other words I wasn't in no condition to drive so I didn't.

big rockpile


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Most truck driver employees don't do that.


Most need to learn how to not be taken advantage of


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

coolrunnin said:


> Most need to learn how to not be taken advantage of


A good start would be to find a way to get the visas shut down so that the market isn't artificially saturated with foreign drivers who don't know how to drive properly but sure as hell can beat rates down in half a heartbeat.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

IndyDave said:


> A good start would be to find a way to get the visas shut down so that the market isn't artificially saturated with foreign drivers who don't know how to drive properly but sure as hell can beat rates down in half a heartbeat.


Shut down the ata would be a good place to start onn that


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wouldn't it be be great if there was a union for teamsters ?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Wouldn't it be be great if there was a union for teamsters ?


They tried that and look what it got them...lol


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> They tried that and look what it got them...lol


What are you talking about ? Their retirement? Their hospitals? The country clubs for their members ? Zoos and parks ? The credit unions that allowed them to buy cars and houses ? Perhaps you mean the scholarships lthat helped their children to go to college?
It has to be one of the many wonderful things they did right before big business got the government involved ,correct ?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

mreynolds said:


> Maybe it's just me but if I buy a truck and use it to take my family to town does that mean the family can be liable if I get in a wreck? Even if the family is not in the truck when it happens?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.


I know that your reference is to the culpability of entire families versus the decision maker in slave-owning families in the antebellum south, but it fit here so well, so I lifted it!

The point it brought to my mind regarding trucking is that while my family may not be held liable (well, in my case they are since it is a family business where we all get burned any time anyone gets written up), I am held liable for anything that goes wrong regarding the truck whether my fault or not. For example, my personal record and the company's record both being tarred by any accident involving my truck. This includes collisions where the other party is 100% at fault, like the guy who slid through a stop sign and slammed into the side of the truck just forward of the trailer axles while I was driving down the highway, or even someone else hitting the truck while it is parked in a legal parking place while I am in bed asleep--and some people wonder why most truck drivers have a nasty attitude about law, regulations, and those who enforce them.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

IndyDave said:


> I know that your reference is to the culpability of entire families versus the decision maker in slave-owning families in the antebellum south, but it fit here so well, so I lifted it!
> 
> The point it brought to my mind regarding trucking is that while my family may not be held liable (well, in my case they are since it is a family business where we all get burned any time anyone gets written up), I am held liable for anything that goes wrong regarding the truck whether my fault or not. For example, my personal record and the company's record both being tarred by any accident involving my truck. This includes collisions where the other party is 100% at fault, like the guy who slid through a stop sign and slammed into the side of the truck just forward of the trailer axles while I was driving down the highway, or even someone else hitting the truck while it is parked in a legal parking place while I am in bed asleep--and some people wonder why most truck drivers have a nasty attitude about law, regulations, and those who enforce them.


Yes. Been there done that and have multiple T-shirts. I was in the family business for a while. What Billy Bob brother-in law did reflected on us all. Then I was a sole prop +1 (wife) and had to go through Texas checkpoints at the border and prayed/shouted/pleaded/cussed that not one of my guys on the crew had a dreg of a joint that my favorite bulldog of a drug sniffer found and they took my truck/RV/tools and everything else when I worked for south of the checkpoint.

It was on me after all. No one else.

PLUS

I had GL/WC/umbrella policies/ and prayed to every God known to modern man. Even a few Greek and Scandinavian Gods if it would have helped. Kept thinking I would be in Valhalla one day doing the same thing.

*BUT....*

I was responsible for all those guys _AND _girls. It was on me and not them.

ETA: I hated Laredo. I never wanted to go back but go back I did anyway after I shut the doors on my business. 

I still hated it. Its like they throw out nails on the hwy for fun and take bets on who will get the flats. Rio Grande City was a nice place if a little bit stuck in the past. Nothing wrong with that imo.


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