# 57 Police Officers Resign From Emergency Response Team In Buffalo NY



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

57-Member Buffalo Police Team Resigns Over Officers' Suspension
"All 57 members of the Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team resigned on Friday in response to the department suspending two officers after a video surfaced showing them shoving a 75-year-old protester to the ground.."


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

It is just a matter of time before police departments start push back on all this BS.

Saw this today


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Look at those fingers. Tiny and no dirt under his nails. How sweet.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

He was asked and told to leave the area previously. Then ignored the move orders from the line of officers clearing the area. Sad to see such a chain of results from the situation.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> He was asked and told to leave the area previously. Then ignored the move orders from the line of officers clearing the area. Sad to see such a chain of results from the situation.


There is more to the story for sure but it did look brutal and kinda made me mad they didn't render aid after the fact. I was on a call once when a drunk was stomping the stuffing out of the lone trooper on scene. It happened so fast. I roundhouse kicked him off the poor trooper who was knocked out. Then we strapped him to a backboard and rendered aid to both him and the trooper. 

Sometime shtuff happens and you have to react. Doesn't mean you have to lose your humanity also.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

I just said to DH last night, wonder when we're going to see police officers begin to say - no thanks and walk away.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There is much, much more to this story, including he's a cancer patient undergoing chemo, and was left bleeding from his ear. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/05/buffalo-police-new-york-city-protests-303168

And the two officers that knocked him to the ground have been suspended without pay, those 57 officers that resigned in protest? Still receiving full pay as Buffalo LEOs. They only resigned from the Emergency Response Team. The NY State Police are sending in officers to replace them.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

There was no need for that. He was an old man, not-armed, and just wanted to speak his mind to “the man”.

“The man” is his employee, and it’s his right to tell them what he thinks. 

The authority trip our government (at all levels) has taken on is not going to end well for any of us, and those who pretend it’s OK are just making the job that much harder for those who will have to fix it in the end.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The authority trip our government (at all levels) *has taken*


You used the wrong tense. Should be "is on". We have been on the wrong trajectory for awhile.


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## RobertDane (Feb 14, 2020)

Such a shame...


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

He was told to leave the area multiple times and he didn't leave,he was argumentative with the police and was poking at the one officer with his right hand. The police responded with a simple push..and he lost his balance and fell to the ground. The one officer involved was stopping to render aid and was pushed away to keep on continuing with the mission at hand which is common practice in a tactical situation..(Mission First). Those are the facts. His age didn't stop him from being at the protest,being argumentative or poking at the police(That's called assault BTW) Whether or not he was a cancer patient/on chemo isn't relative to the situation that the police were faced with plus they had absolutely no way of knowing. The police acted 100% responsibly in this case, their "bosses and the protesters did not". No, he was not armed,nor was he treated as if he had been. "The man" may be his employee but he hired them to do the job they were doing ,he had the opportunity to have his say both during the protest and at the voting booth. I support the officers that were suspended 100% as well as those that resigned from their positions on that team.Eventually good LEO's will get tired of being thrown "Under the bus" by spineless politicians. Every single city that is proposing the "defunding" of the police and or eliminating them entirely should have their LEO's walk off the job along with all of their gear and watch these cities fall into the war zones they'll become.You have the right to your opinion and I have mine...and there you have it....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bad cops are not going to walk out because of bad publicity, unfair treatment by their appointed/unelected superiors or feeling as if they are the enemy, but I'll bet there are plenty of good community oriented officers are or will and others who are counting down the days until their pension.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> kinda made me mad they didn't render aid after the fact.


They immediately called for the on-site EMT's.
The LEO's needed to stay focused on the rest of the crowd to secure the site for medical personnel who were trained and equipped to properly treat the man.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They immediately called for the on-site EMT's.
> The LEO's needed to stay focused on the rest of the crowd to secure the site for medical personnel who were trained and equipped to properly treat the man.


And I get that too but protocol dictates that someone be by a patient's side until more qualified help arrives. At the very least most officers are trained in CPR. A lawyer would (and has many times) eat that up in court and sue the whole dept. 

It would only take one person.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> And I get that too but protocol dictates that someone be *by a patient's side* until more qualified help arrives.


In all the video I've seen they were never more than 10 feet from him.

I imagine they are "gun shy" about handling injured people now since they will be blamed regardless of the facts.

It's a no win situation for everyone.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> There is much, much *more to this story*


There is:

Gugino is a retiree who lives by himself in the area, say friends who describe him as a *veteran peace activist* driven by his faith and a desire for *social justice*. He is involved with the Western New York Peace Center and Latin American Solidarity Committee, said Vicki Ross, the center’s executive director.

“I can assure you, Martin is a peaceable person,” Ross said. “There is no way that he was doing anything to accost or hurt. *He made a judgment to stay out after the curfew* because he feels that our civil liberties are so in danger, which they most certainly are.”

Just like Floyd, his *own* actions caused the end result.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There is:
> 
> Gugino is a retiree who lives by himself in the area, say friends who describe him as a *veteran peace activist* driven by his faith and a desire for *social justice*. He is involved with the Western New York Peace Center and Latin American Solidarity Committee, said Vicki Ross, the center’s executive director.
> 
> ...


As Niccolò Machiavelli said: The ends justify the means, huh?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> As Niccolò Machiavelli said: The ends justify the means, huh?


No.
It's more like "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes".


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No.
> It's more like "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes".


I can certainly agree with you on your statement.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> As Niccolò Machiavelli said: The ends justify the means, huh?


Wrong again. 



> Political misquotes: The 10 most famous things *never actually said*


https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Polit...e-ends-justify-the-means.-Niccolo-Machiavelli


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> He was told to leave the area multiple times and he didn't leave,he was argumentative with the police and was poking at the one officer with his right hand. The police responded with a simple push..and he lost his balance and fell to the ground. The one officer involved was stopping to render aid and was pushed away to keep on continuing with the mission at hand which is common practice in a tactical situation..(Mission First). Those are the facts. His age didn't stop him from being at the protest,being argumentative or poking at the police(That's called assault BTW) Whether or not he was a cancer patient/on chemo isn't relative to the situation that the police were faced with plus they had absolutely no way of knowing. The police acted 100% responsibly in this case, their "bosses and the protesters did not". No, he was not armed,nor was he treated as if he had been. "The man" may be his employee but he hired them to do the job they were doing ,he had the opportunity to have his say both during the protest and at the voting booth. I support the officers that were suspended 100% as well as those that resigned from their positions on that team.Eventually good LEO's will get tired of being thrown "Under the bus" by spineless politicians. Every single city that is proposing the "defunding" of the police and or eliminating them entirely should have their LEO's walk off the job along with all of their gear and watch these cities fall into the war zones they'll become.You have the right to your opinion and I have mine...and there you have it....


You’re right we both have our opinions, and they’re worth about as much as each other’s.

I will admit that the shove was not that aggressive, and that it was made to look much worse by the man losing his balance. But I also think that it’s a bit (by “a bit”, of course, I mean “a lot”) of a stretch to say that his gesturing in the cop’s general direction, in a poking type manner, rises to the level of assault.


That all said, the man was upset about the curfews, so it’s reasonable to assume that that’s what he was trying to talk about. Agree or disagree, curfews are a reasonable thing for a person to be upset about.

Curfews are like mag-cap or semi-auto bans; they’re a regulations based on preventing you the means to do something wrong, because you can’t be trusted.

On any given Thursday night, at 0300 in Buffalo, NY, there might be 200 people out and about. Two or four of them might be out looking to do something nefarious, the other 196-198 are just living their lives. In the case of a crime wave, like we’re seeing surrounding these (very much legitimate) protests, there might be as many as 5,000 people out, at 0300, on Thursday morning, in Buffalo, NY, with as many as 500-600 looking to do something nefarious. It’s right to say that the percentage of potential criminals is higher, as is the need for a greater police presence. Is the curfew justified, then?

What if more criminals start using 30rd mags? Are you willing to then give up your right because you, still in the vast majority who will never use them for nefarious means, because the government decides you _might_? 

What if these protests were about 2A rights, and the old man had been shaking a 30rd mag “where he wasn’t supposed to”? Would you have been ok with that cop pushing him down?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Wrong again.
> 
> 
> https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Polit...e-ends-justify-the-means.-Niccolo-Machiavelli


Please, please pardon my faux pas. I used this-

"*References[edit]*

^ “Machiavelli: The end justifies the means”, in publicbookshelf.com‎[1], 2002"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_end_justifies_the_means

I know better, and I promise to double and triple check from now on. 

ETA: The adage "The ends justify the means" absolutely works for this post. 



Bearfootfarm said:


> There is:
> 
> Gugino is a retiree who lives by himself in the area, say friends who describe him as a veteran peace activist driven by his faith and a desire for social justice. He is involved with the Western New York Peace Center and Latin American Solidarity Committee, said Vicki Ross, the center’s executive director.
> 
> ...


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You’re right we both have our opinions, and they’re worth about as much as each other’s.
> 
> I will admit that the shove was not that aggressive, and that it was made to look much worse by the man losing his balance. But I also think that it’s a bit (by “a bit”, of course, I mean “a lot”) of a stretch to say that his gesturing in the cop’s general direction, in a poking type manner, rises to the level of assault.
> 
> ...


I will say its to bad he got hurt but he was not blameless by any means. Plenty of blame to be passed around. Should he be charged with obstruction or something else ? Seems like its a likely possibility if someone wants to pursue it. The cops actions are already under review to see what should be done about them, if anything. 

He was not being denied the ability to protest, or talk to his employees. What he did was pick a inappropriate time and place to do so, even after numerous opportunities to resolve the situation. The people causing the curfews are causing problems for ALL of the rest of the cities population to have to deal with. Hopefully the cause of the curfews are sorted out so that everyone else does not have to deal with it. The actions of a few affect everyone, good or bad.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> There is much, much more to this story, including he's a cancer patient undergoing chemo, and was left bleeding from his ear.


Irrelevant... the police have no way of determining his medical condition. He was healthy enough to be there protesting and defying lawful orders.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> There was no need for that. He was an old man, not-armed, and just wanted to speak his mind to “the man”.


Again... Irrelevant... many people, including police are injured or even killed by "old", presumably "not-armed" men. The man has a right to speak his mind but the police have a right to not have someone right in their safety zone. The man was not standing there "speaking his mind".... he approached the officers invading their safety zone.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I will admit that the shove was not that aggressive, and that it was made to look much worse by the man losing his balance. But I also think that it’s a bit (by “a bit”, of course, I mean “a lot”) of a stretch to say that his gesturing in the cop’s general direction, in a poking type manner, rises to the level of assault...


The "shove" was not aggressive (as you said) but was a legitimate tactical bump to get non-compliant persons out of an officers safety zone. Unfortunately, in this case the man lost his balance, fell and was injured.

The "_stretch"_ here is saying he was "gesturing in the cop’s general direction". The man approached the officers, closing the distance between them from more than 6 feet to less than 1 foot. The officers stopped _their_ advance, appear to (and presumably) told the man to move, he does not comply, they bump him, he stumbles back and falls. Again, unfortunate but given what I can see from the video, I can place no blame here.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I suppose if he or she was a pro life advocate, protesting an abortion clinic, and started tapping a police officer on the shoulder, refusing to leave, that those who are supporting him now would have just as much of that emotion and empathy thing.
Of course they would, you know, that right to protest thing being blind to any cause and all.
No would be mention on the news of he/she being a right wing terrorist or making the clinic employees feel threatened.
No need to mention laws dictating how many feet away that the protesters should be to avoid citation or arrest.
No mention of whether they applied and received the required permits.
Of course not.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

homesteadforty said:


> The "_stretch"_ here is saying he was "gesturing in the cop’s general direction".


I'd call that a "furtive movement" in which it appears he was reaching for either something on the officer's belt or his baton.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

This video appears to show the man receiving medical attention almost immediately:






https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...upport-officers-fired-for-shoving-75-year-old


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> This video appears to show the man receiving medical attention almost immediately:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one does put a different light on it. Thanks for posting that. The other one made it seem like they all abandoned him and was still moving forward.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

So... WBFO (an NPR member station) posted an edited video that was made to give the impression that the officers just strolled on by the man without a care. The second video shows the officers coming to a full stop and waiting at least a full 50 seconds (can't tell how much longer as the video ends).

You can also see in the first video that an officer (Lt. or above judging by his gold badge) immediately gets on his radio... in all likelihood to call for medical assistance.

Hmmm... I wonder how and why the video was presented that way???


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe because they wanted you to believe that the officers just strolled on by the man without a care.
It wouldn't be the first time NPR did their own version of reporting an event in such a manner.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> The other one made it seem like they all abandoned him and was still moving forward.


Videos seldom tell the whole story.

There's a Facebook video with the man talking to people before the incident and they said he showed up as things were winding down and was trying to cause trouble.

https://www.facebook.com/1791523212/videos/pcb.10213683423038467/10213683414358250

It's also curious there was someone there in the perfect position to to get the confrontation recorded. Almost as if they knew it was coming.......


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

This one shows the medics (in camo with helmets) treating him in less than 30 seconds:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269143409148801025


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Picked a bad time to take that helmet off. Ouch.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Videos seldom tell the whole story.
> 
> There's a Facebook video with the man talking to people before the incident and they said he showed up as things were winding down and was trying to cause trouble.
> 
> ...


Being human I have emotions so that first video made me mad. I knew it probably wasn't there whole story and even said so but I could imagine what I would do if that was my father or grandfather. I did look for other stuff on it but didn't find anything conclusive. I'm glad you going that one.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> I did look for other stuff on it but didn't find anything conclusive.


It's hard to find sometimes and things have a way of disappearing.
I just read lots of sites and get bits and pieces that lead me to more info once in a while.

It seems clear he went there looking to start something.
I don't think the LEO's meant to hurt him at all.
They just wanted him to leave as directed.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Officers Robert McCabe, 32, and Aaron Torgalski, 39, pleaded not guilty to the charges of second-degree assault, a felony, and will be released on their own recognizance, according to NBC affiliate WGRZ in Buffalo. They are both scheduled to return to court on July 20 for a felony hearing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Officers Robert McCabe, 32, and Aaron Torgalski, 39, pleaded not guilty to the charges of second-degree assault, a felony, and will be released on their own recognizance, according to NBC affiliate WGRZ in Buffalo. They are both scheduled to return to court on July 20 for a felony hearing.


Perfect. They will get their day in court.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

https://www.blogger.com/profile/12535061710557436016







*Introduction* 
Four arrests,
no convictions.
[email protected] Capitol
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected] County


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

https://twitter.com/martingugino
Martin Gugino
@martingugino·
Jun 4
"*Protests are exempt from curfews* because Congress (and mayors) may make no laws that abridge the right of the people peaceably to assemble and complain to the government. The government should receive the complaint with thanks, not arrest the people or beat them."

Martin Gugino
@martingugino·
Jun 4

"*So that is an "as applied" challenge.* It means that a curfew does not apply to this set of facts. *Protestors are exempt*. You could claim that they are to be included, but you would have to +first+ demonstrate that the curfew was the least restrictive means of achieving the end."


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Perfect. They will get their day in court.


Too bad George Floyd an the older gentleman didn't get their days in court...
Particularly since that's exactly what the police are SUPPOSED to be doing, 
Not beating, robing, raping, murdering the citizens.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JeepHammer said:


> Too bad George Floyd an the older gentleman didn't get their days in court...
> Particularly since that's exactly what the police are SUPPOSED to be doing,
> Not beating, robing, raping, murdering the citizens.


I agree completely, yet every American has the right to a trial. The LEOs that (to keep the uproar to a minimum, allegedly) murdered George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, David McAtee, and injured countless others, will be charged and tried for their crimes as the evidence indicates.

ETA: If they aren't charged/trialed, the country could implode, in my opinion.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

There is a time and place for every thing,...…...while it is certainly wrong and morally unforgivable, that was not the time or place to voice grievances......unless you think they are taking notes thru those shields.

Sort of like giving your order to the dish washer......he does not care about your order and will not be relaying it to anyone.


Does not make it right what they did to a old man, but it was a poor choice to be there in the first place.....very misguided.


I see no shortage of poor choices ……….from all sides, I see very few smart choices and the avenue for change is broken or at least no one has faith in it anymore.

Things certainly need to change, but how that's happens is elusive and poor choices will not help.

Its my hope we do not have to decent in to chaos to get change, because at that point.....the change that might result is very unpredictable....it may only get worse and end making a larger problem and we might descend into mass anarchy.

There are still plenty of good choices to be made, before we need to resort to chaos...……..chaos is easy, change is not.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> As Niccolò Machiavelli said: The ends justify the means, huh?


Isnt that like " by any means necessary"?
Thats antifas motto.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree completely, yet every American has the right to a trial. The LEOs that (to keep the uproar to a minimum, allegedly) murdered George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, David McAtee, and injured countless others, will be charged and tried for their crimes as the evidence indicates.
> 
> ETA: If they aren't charged/trialed, the country could implode, in my opinion.


Time for a good implosion. Some of us are ready, some are not. Some will survive, some wont. Im ok with that.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> If they aren't charged/trialed, the country could implode, in my opinion.


That's the only reason they were charged.
They didn't "murder" anyone, as the evidence indicates.



Irish Pixie said:


> as the evidence indicates.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They didn't "murder" anyone, as the evidence indicates.


All four involved in the murder of George Floyd have been charged. Both autopsy's indicated Mr. Floyd died due to "law enforcement subdual". Those are the facts in evidence right now.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Both autopsy's indicated Mr. Floyd died *due to* "law enforcement subdual".


We've had this conversation.
He died due to "cardiopulmonary arrest" brought on by his own actions.



> The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The *combined effects* of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his *underlying health conditions* and any *potential intoxicants* in his system likely contributed to his death.


https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

JeepHammer said:


> Too bad George Floyd an the older gentleman didn't get their days in court...
> Particularly since that's exactly what the police are SUPPOSED to be doing,
> Not beating, robing, raping, murdering the citizens.


 Hang the bastards in the town square at high noon tomorrow!


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

“While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.”


Bet the LEO’s defense lawyers use that statement.


https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> “*While standing outside the car*, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.”


Congratulations!!
Go to the last 30 seconds of this video and you can see him collapse:


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

If he collapsed and didn't trip then why did they have to have him on the ground held down by three officers. Your assumption doesn't hold water.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> If he collapsed and didn't trip then why did they have to have him on the ground held down by three officers.
> Your *assumption* doesn't hold water.


It's not an "assumption".
It's on video.
He kept resisting while they were trying to get him in the car.

This one tries to claim he was being "attacked", but they were still just trying to get him seated in the vehicle. This is also before they held him down.:
https://www.news.com.au/world/north...s/news-story/4af4f7145a5be7ac9863945c9658678c



That's all documented as well.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not an "assumption".
> It's on video.
> He kept resisting while they were trying to get him in the car.
> 
> ...


So was he collapsing or resisting? You seem to be giving us a different story over several posts.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> If he collapsed and didn't trip then why did they have to have him on the ground held down by three officers. Your assumption doesn't hold water.


Floyd is seen on film resisting being put into in a vehicle. Why would they give a large guy like this a chance to resist again? Any mistakes the officers made have been and will be reviewed with 20 20 hindsight and with close attention in court. I do not know all of the facts. Hopefully they will come out at trial.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> So was he collapsing or resisting? You seem to be giving us a different story over several posts.


They aren't mutually exclusive. 

He wasn't tripped.
He wasn't beaten.

They seemed to think he did it intentionally.

He got back up and made it to to other side of the vehicle where they struggled trying to get him inside. He kept refusing and kept resisting. 

That's when he first complained of breathing difficulties, even though he was still struggling. 

That's when they got him down on the ground to hold until EMT's arrived. 

Again, all this is documented.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They aren't mutually exclusive.
> 
> He wasn't tripped.
> He wasn't beaten.
> ...


Seems they ruled his death a homicide.

You don't know if he tripped over or stumbled or collapsed.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I just watched the video with the old man falling, five times. The officer on the right tapped the protester with his right hand. The officer on the left, the one with the baton held vertical doesn't appear to touch him all all. The protester takes two steps backwards then falls. Something you might do if you wanted to be seen as a victim. Possibly looking for an injury settlement.

The supervisor gets on the radio at once, calling for a medic. All transmissions are recorded so they will be able to play it back and hear what he said. The reporter acts like the medics just happened to be walking by and found the man laying on the ground. As someone who has sat on use of force boards, I would clear the officers in this case.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> You don't know if he trippedover or stumbled or collapsed.


It makes no real difference.
Choose the verb that makes you happy. 

The video shows he wasn't "tripped"
Other videos show he actively resisted from the very beginning.

Documentation states he complained of breathing difficulties before he was on the ground and pain afterwards.



painterswife said:


> Seems *they ruled* his death a homicide.


That is a technicality and has nothing to do with what I said.

https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf


> MEDICAL EXAMINER’S OFFICE AUTOPSY REPORT ME NO.: 20-3700 CASE TITLE: *CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST* COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION DECEASED: George Floyd aka Floyd Perry


https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25881/20200530/autopsy-report-george-floyd-died-asphyxia.htm
*"Heading to the squad car, 'Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground and told the officers he was claustrophobic.' *Officer Chauvin arrived with his partner as the officers continued to try and bring Floyd into the squad car. *Floyd kept intentionally falling*, reads the report while *saying he would not get in the car and* *refused to stand still* as well. 

*While Floyd stood outside of the car, he began repeating that he couldn't breathe.* After being assisted in the car, the Chauvin took him out of the vehicle, and Floyd went on the ground face down still handcuffed. It was at this time that Chauvin placed his left knee on Floyd's neck. Floyd was repeatedly saying 'I can't breathe; mama; please.' 

Kueng held his back while Lane held his legs and none of the officers altered their position. The officers had an exchange: 'You are talking fine' one said to Floyd. Lane asked Chauvin 'should we roll him on his side?' The defendant replied 'no, staying put where we got him.' "


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I did not say he was tripped. Tripping is possible all on ones own.

Holding a man who is indicating he can't breathe on the ground for 9 minutes in that fashion is homicide in my opinion.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Homicide:
https://dam.tmz.com/document/65/o/2020/06/01/657b9939bb4e46cea274d10f81c662cc.pdf
"Manner of death classification is a statutory function...."


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Seems they ruled his death a homicide.


All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murder. Any death at the hand of another is a homicide, but their are many different kinds of homicide. Justifiable, accidental, and negligent, come to mind. That's why we have trials.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I dod not say he was tripped. Tripping is possible all on ones own.
> 
> Holding a man who is indicating he can't breathe on the ground for 9 minutes in that fashion is homicide in my opinion.


And you would be correct. It would be a homicide, but not necessarily murder. If that position is customarily used to restrain an unruly suspect, and no one has ever died as a result. Or if they are trained to use this position to hold someone down. It might be ruled a accidental homicide but not murder. The amount of time he was held down, will be a big factor in what the verdict will be. They filed 2nd degree murder charges, so they are probably going for negligent homicide. Time will tell.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I never said murder. I said homicide. No need to attempt to school me for something I never said.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Holding a man who is *indicating* he can't breathe on the ground for 9 minutes in that fashion is homicide in my opinion.


A man who has been *saying* "I can't breath" for nearly 10 minutes while still struggling clearly *can* breath.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

painterswife said:


> I never said murder. I said homicide. No need to attempt to school me for something I never said.


Murder charges have been filed against all 4 officers for Floyd's death.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We've had this conversation.
> He died due to "cardiopulmonary arrest" brought on by his own actions.
> 
> 
> https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf


The link is a court statement, not proof anything. Autopsy performed on 5/26/2020, by Hennepen County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew M. Baker indicated as a cause of death, "*CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION*" https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

More information regarding the autopsy done by the family (I cannot find a PDF of the actual report) https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael-baden.html

Both autopsy's indicate homocide. The above is actual evidence of what happened to Mr. Floyd's body while he was held on the ground with a former LEOs knee on his neck, and two other former LEOs on his body for almost 9 minutes. We'll be shown more actual evidence at the trials of all four former LEOs.

ETA: I used the term "murder" and it's my opinion that Mr. Floyd was murdered by four former LEOs.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> Too bad George Floyd an the older gentleman didn't get their days in court...
> Particularly since that's exactly what the police are SUPPOSED to be doing,
> Not beating, robing, raping, murdering the citizens.


It is just so much quicker to let the police beat and rob, and murder them. Saves the expense and trouble of going to court.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A man who has been *saying* "I can't breath" for nearly 10 minutes while still struggling clearly *can* breath.


That was remedied with a knee to the neck.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

There must be a "Stupid Virus Pandemic" now as well. I see proof of it every time I read the responses from certain people posting here..."If the shoe fits"...lace it up and get to steppin'...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It always was.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> There must be a "Stupid Virus Pandemic" now as well. I see proof of it every time I read the responses from certain people posting here..."If the shoe fits"...lace it up and get to steppin'...


I absolutely agree with your entire post. Thank you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> The link is a court statement, not proof anything. Autopsy performed on 5/26/2020, by Hennepen County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew M. Baker indicated as a cause of death, "*CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION*" https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
> 
> More information regarding the autopsy done by the family (I cannot find a PDF of the actual report) https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael-baden.html
> 
> ...





> Bearfootfarm said: ↑
> We've *had* this conversation.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> The link is a court statement, not proof anything. Autopsy performed on 5/26/2020, by Hennepen County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew M. Baker indicated as a cause of death, "*CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION*" https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
> 
> More information regarding the autopsy done by the family (I cannot find a PDF of the actual report) https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael-baden.html
> 
> ...


I agree, I saw murder.
The 'Legal' term is Homicide, while a court decides Justifiable or Criminal Homicide.

I saw the autopsy, the family (second) then the official to 'Refute' the second.
Both cited cardiopulmonary arrest (heart stopping) due to neck compression.
One stated disruption of nervous system/circulatory system, the other was suffocation due to compression of the cardiopulmonary system.

*Both listed as Homicide as manner of death.*

Now, since you can see the guy basically standing on the victim's neck, it's not much of a stretch to say we know exactly who did it.
Since people repeatedly call for someone/anyone to check the victim's pulse/breathing, not much question that any reasonable person would have noticed the distress the victim was in, didn't take medical training to see the distress.

The victim was unlucky enough to run into the officer that had 18 previous written/documented complaints,
So the officer was no stranger to abusing people, he just killed this one, and it happened to be caught on video, or you wouldn't have heard too much about it...
Internal investigation, back to abusing people, business as usual if the camera hadn't been rolling.

----------------------

Both autopsies agreed it was outright homicide...

Two different medical professionals, with years of experience, educated in that specific field.
At least 8 years of medical school, then educated specifically in post mortems...

And while several have been strangled, suffocated, had broken necks, there are still people *Claiming* to be officers on this forum saying they do the exact same thing,
And still trying to defend the officer that murdered George Floyd...

I hope those Officers change their ways, or get fired...
I sure wouldn't want one of them to stand on my neck until I'm dead,
Or have to deal with them if they murdered someone in my circle.
The way hillbilly families work, I'm the elder now, and it would be my job to deal with someone that got away with murder in the 'Legal' system.
Im way too old and beat up to deal with that kind of drama, I'm hoping something gets done so no one has to deal with it...

De-funding the police might get something done,
Mess with money and changes happen...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

57 police that resign because they aren't willing to change their ways, as in not attacking 70 year old people?
I say good riddance, but a small start...

If those extremists aren't willing to retrain to do their jobs more effectively then good riddance.
I hope they are happy at their next jobs without badges...

What's NOT being reported much,
11 or 12 cities have announced they will allow protests since they haven't had riots/looting, just peaceful protesting...
Now, it's the (peaceful) protester's constitutional right to assemble and protest.
(Looting & rioting are still illegal and need to be controlled)

The reason that cities are opening up to peaceful protesters is because of the 1,100+ SERIOUS injuries by police using rubber bullets, launchers to propel tear gas & flash bangs into crowds.
1,100+ broken bones, lost eyes, concussions, since it seems police can't bounce the canisters into crowds, instead opting to aim for faces/people's heads...

In the Marines, we were trained to skip projectiles off the pavement in non-lethal situations or when we were particularly close to protests...
Seems if the Marines can be trained that way, the police should have the same training, but are choosing to aim at people at close range.

By opening up to peaceful protesters, it's admitting they have the right,
And the police can't be controlled to do their jobs effectively without giving women, children, old folks concussions, taking out eyes, etc, so they are simply being pulled back...


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> De-funding the police might get something done,
> Mess with money and changes happen...


I say why stop there. Let's de-fund all of the government. None of them are doing a very good job anyway.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Both listed as Homicide as *manner* of death.


Manner, not "*cause*".


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I sure don't see congress or presidency doing much to earn what they make in pay/perks/benefits....


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

when somebody is having difficulty breathing, they say ''I can't breathe''. they don't necessarily define it by saying , ''I'm having difficulty breathing'', so that any idiot can understand it.. that's too bad in this case.
It might also be possible that the cop on his back was causing him some difficulty breathing. double whammy.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> 57 police that resign because they aren't willing to change their ways, as in not attacking 70 year old people?
> I say good riddance, but a small start...
> 
> If those extremists aren't willing to retrain to do their jobs more effectively then good riddance.
> ...


Play stupid games,win stupid prizes....


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

JeepHammer said:


> I agree, I saw murder.
> The 'Legal' term is Homicide, while a court decides Justifiable or Criminal Homicide.
> 
> I saw the autopsy, the family (second) then the official to 'Refute' the second.
> ...



De-funding the police might get something done,
Mess with money and changes happen

Watch for and take care of the problem officers. The rest are doing their jobs. 

How about the protestors sign up for some extra taxes, community volunteer programs such as raising the neighbor hood rug rats that are being improperly brought up. They can volunteer to rebuild the wrecked business and homes they have helped cause. They can take a couple druggies home and fix their problems. Volunteer for teaching some free classes and programs on racist issues and how to prevent and handle them. Any other similar ideas as needed. In a few decades the protestors and their kids should have this problem solved.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> Mess with *money* and changes happen


There's the magic word.
How many millions are now being funneled towards groups with agendas?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Agenda I approve of ? Not enough


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Agenda I approve of ? Not enough


That's the deal with living in a society with the rule of law...
You personally don't have to *Approve* of everything everyone else is or does, 
You just have to be able to live with it in a reasonable manner, fair to everyone...

I disagree with the way people *Think* I should dive my life,
I don't give much thought to how they live their lives, it's not my department...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I disagree with the way people *Think* I should dive my life,
> *I don't give much thought to how they live their lives*, it's not my department...


That's funny stuff there.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

Without good peace officers, we will be in Hell on EARTH literally. Everyone is responsible for their actions. Good ones and bad ones. Even the general public and the protesters. Peace officers as well.


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