# Harvey Weinstein trial



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I haven't watched it too closely and I have no doubt the guy is a creep, you know, the dirty old man kind of creep but some of the testimony has me scratching my head. Some of the women are saying he raped them numerous times. I have no idea what happened but as a woman, I can tell you without a doubt I would never, ever, give my rapist an opportunity to do it again. They say they dated him afterward, then I heard one say she went to his hotel room several times after, sent flirty texts, etc., afterward so it does not sound like the sort of thing a rape victim would do. Talk about mixed messages!


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Some women are so intimidated, or even awed, by a person in power, or even someone who isn't who has victimized them, that they feel that "coming back for more" is not an option. This is especially true for people who have experienced previous abuse.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

p.s. This is probably one of the few places where the OP could get away with saying what she (presumably) did.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There was a time when women were made to feel that sexual assault was their own fault, provocative clothing, too much to drink, going back to a man's room, out after dark, etc. They didn't want to admit, even to themselves, they had been violated. So, if they pretended it didn't happen, it didn't. It still occurs today, but thankfully most people realize the only cause of rape is the rapist.

I tried watching the trial, starting crying and shaking and couldn't continue. The trauma is never gone.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


>


Can you explain, please?


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I guess I just don't get it. I can't think of anything that would mean so much to me that I would continue to allow that sort of treatment, even becoming a movie star. I see women around here that put up with some pretty awful stuff though just to have a "provider".


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Miss Kay said:


> I guess I just don't get it. I can't think of anything that would mean so much to me that I would continue to allow that sort of treatment, even becoming a movie star. I see women around here that put up with some pretty awful stuff though just to have a "provider".


I expect it started early on when the first producer saw the first girl with stars in her eyes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> I guess I just don't get it. I can't think of anything that would mean so much to me that I would continue to allow that sort of treatment, even becoming a movie star. I see women around here that put up with some pretty awful stuff though just to have a "provider".


He held all the power, if he wasn't pleased, he could take everything away from them. Not just the job they had then, but all of them forever. Not all were actresses, he sexually assaulted any women he wanted that he had power over.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I expect it started early on when the first producer saw the first girl with stars in her eyes.


So sexual assault is OK if the woman benefits in some way?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So sexual assault is OK if the woman benefits in some way?


They made a trade in many cases


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> They made a trade in many cases


Thank you for responding. I understand now.

ETA: I'll never understand how anyone can think that sexual assault is acceptable in any form.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

HDRider said:


> They made a trade in many cases


Some form of prostitution without money physically changing hands....or to coin a recently popular phrase, "Quid Pro Quo" !


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> They made a trade in many cases


I agree. I think that some did know exactly what they were doing, and proceeded with eyes wide open. I also think that some were just completely naive. And of course there were those that fell somewhere in between.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The fellow is undoubtedly a creep, but the women who fell for his lines were looking for fame and fortune in an industry known for its shabby behavior. Last week I saw a woman on TV who said that in her day "If a woman went into a man's hotel room she knew exactly why she was there."

All these woman wanted something from Weinstein. Had they become movie stars, or even just very successful, few would have complained. Many did not.

I am not endorsing his behavior but the term "casting couch" is older than I am.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

No. Harvey Weinstein is a sexual predator.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> So *sexual assault is OK* if the woman benefits in some way?


How could you possibly get that from what he said?



Irish Pixie said:


> Harvey Weinstein is a sexual predator.


It sounds like a lot of the women didn't think so until they realized they might be able to get some money out of the allegations. Reality is only those involved know what truly happened. It's easy too jump on a bandwagon but that doesn't mean you're always right.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> How could you possibly get that from what he said?


How did you not? The poster agreed with his next post.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I have no doubt that he is a very calculating sexual predator, I also have no doubt that a portion of his accusers are reneging on a deal that they made willingly. I'd imagine that, like in most circumstances, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Seth


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> How did you not? *The poster agreed* with his next post.


No he didn't,.
He said they made a trade.
Willingly in many cases, since they went back more than once.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> He held all the power, if he wasn't pleased, he could take everything away from them. Not just the job they had then, but all of them forever. Not all were actresses, he sexually assaulted any women he wanted that he had power over.



I fully agree, but there were instances of women seeking him out because of his power.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's where we have a difference of *opinion*.


Words have meaning.
He didn't say "Sexual assault is ok..."
That's simply fact.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> No. Harvey Weinstein is a sexual predator.


Yes he is, just one of many who have found their own personal playground where they are king. At least for a while.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Since many of the women he had sex with returned for more sex or said things to him afterwards that were on friendly terms it makes it difficult to believe that they did not feel they got equitable value from their sexual encounters.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Those women wanted fame and fortune. Weinstein was in a position to put them on stage. If not forcibly raped, then there mist have been a measure of consent, or as one here put it, Quid pro Quo.

No sensible woman is raped and goes back for more. What a joke!!!!

What has happened is that the liberal world is now "woke" and old perceived injustices are coming to light. We are entitled to make up our own minds as to the validity of such claims. 

I agree, Weinstein is and was a creep, but the women were not entirely innocent of motive.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

So let's say just talk about the women he raped just once and that did not get in the position to be raped more than once.

Are they responsible for their own rapes?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Isn’t it just as creepy as what he did that many women were willing to have sex with him for what they could get from him?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There are always people of any sex that will do things that most will not, to get ahead.

That does not change the fact that when faced with a no, he took what he wanted anyway.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Only those who did NOT go back have valid claims against him, in my opinion.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> So sexual assault is OK if the woman benefits in some way?


If the woman feel that she is getting something, and goes along for the job or movie part it isn't assault. He is taking advantage of her but it isn't assault. It is a transaction. When I was a Deputy, I saw the same thing between junkies and drug dealers.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> If the woman feel that she is getting something, and goes along for the job or movie part it isn't assault. He taking advantage of her but it isn't assault. It is a transaction. When I was a Deputy, I saw the same thing between junkies and drug dealers.


She has to agree though correct? Rape is force, not a transaction.

Lots of times women get a settlement after to not report the rape but it is still rape.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> She has to agree though correct? Rape is force, not a transaction.
> 
> Lots of times women get a settlement after to not report the rape but it is still rape.


If she goes along to get the job or part, she is agreeing. That is a transaction. Made with the oldest currency know to mankind. To claim rape after that is just a way of getting attention or money. Remember, the people in Hollywood crave the publicity, above all else.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> If she goes along to get the job or part, she is agreeing. That is a transaction. Made with the oldest currency know to mankind.


If she says no it is rape.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

muleskinner2 said:


> He taking advantage of her .


how is he taking advantage?
Isn’t it the other way around ?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It can go both ways.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> If she says no it is rape.


Yes it is. But not if she waits years before she says no.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Lots of times women get a settlement after to not report the rape but it is still rape.


If they agree to take a settlement, it becomes a transaction. They are just negotiating the fee. A settlement isn't a fine, it is a agreed upon fee.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> how is he taking advantage?
> Isn’t it the other way around ?


Now that I think about it you are right. If she agrees to the deal, she is bribing him.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> If they agree to take a settlement, it becomes a transaction. They are just negotiating the fee. A settlement isn't a fine, it is a agreed upon fee.


 It does not negate that a rape took place and it does not mean that he cannot be charged in a criminal court.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> So let's say just talk about the women he raped just once and that did not get in the position to be raped more than once.
> 
> Are they responsible for their own rapes?


If they were raped. But it isn't rape if they just decided they were not getting what they wanted, and then didn't go back and try again.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> It does not negate that a rape took place and it does not mean that he cannot be charged in a criminal court.


Yes, he can be charged. It doesn't change the fact that a transaction took place.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

muleskinner2 said:


> If she goes along to get the job or part, she is agreeing. That is a transaction. Made with the oldest currency know to mankind. To claim rape after that is just a way of getting attention or money. Remember, the people in Hollywood crave the publicity, above all else.


The terms "projecting" and "vicarious" seem to be the theme among a few.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Yes, he can be charged. It doesn't change the fact that a transaction took place.


Civil payment for a rape or sexual assault may be technically a transaction. It does not put any act of wrongdoing on the women , only the person who committed the rape. You make it seem like she did something wrong or was complicit in the crime. That is disgusting.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Civil payment for a rape or sexual assault may be technically a transaction. It does not put any act of wrongdoing on the women , only the person who committed the rape. You make it seem like she did something wrong or was complicit in the crime. That is disgusting.


If a woman is raped, then it is rape and nothing else. If she agrees to the act then changes her mind later it isn't rape, or even a crime and no wrongdoing took place. I haven't been following the case, and don't know the details of every incident.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> If a woman is raped, then it is rape and nothing else. If she agrees to the act then changes her mind later it isn't rape, or even a crime and no wrongdoing took place. I haven't been following the case, and don't know the details of every incident.


Thank you for the clarification. It seemed that you were accusing these women of being part of the problem but I see now that you were not really talking about this case at all.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> She has to agree though correct? Rape is force, not a transaction.
> 
> Lots of times women get a settlement after to not report the rape but it is still rape.


Rape by Harv was transactions reconsidered


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Rape by Harv was transactions reconsidered


Do you really believe this? Rape or sexual assault by Harvey Weinstein were a consensual contract/transaction?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Thank you for the clarification. It seemed that you were accusing these women of being part of the problem but I see now that you were not really talking about this case at all.


A whore is still a whore, no matter the reason, or who or how much she got paid. A woman who goes to a mans room for a few drinks is a whore. Paid in cash or a movie part, she is still looking to get paid.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> A whore is still a whore, no matter the reason, or who or how much she got paid. A woman who goes to a mans room for a few drinks is a whore. Paid in cash or a movie part, she is still looking to get paid.


Thank you for this post, it's a perfect illustration.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have been to men's rooms for a drink. I was not raped and I am not a whore. Having a drink is not having sex.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I have been to men's rooms for a drink. I was not raped and I am not a whore. Having a drink is not having sex.


Was the man a movie producer, known for trading sex for movie parts? These women didn't just fall out of the sky and land in his room.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Was the man a movie producer, known for trading sex for movie parts? These women didn't just fall out of the sky and land in his room.


So you know that these women knew that they would be raped. Now you are just justifying your statement that women that go to a man's room for a drink are whores. A drink is not sex.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you really believe this? Rape or sexual assault by Harvey Weinstein were a consensual contract/transaction?


Do you think Harv could overpower you?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I have been to men's rooms for a drink. I was not raped and I am not a whore. Having a drink is not having sex.


Putting a poodle in the same room as a pit bull is asking for trouble.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> I have been to men's rooms for a drink. I was not raped and I am not a whore. Having a drink is not having sex.


Even if a woman did go for drinks in a man's room, had mind blowing sex and enjoyed it, she's still not a whore. 

I feel I need to state it's 2020, not 1950. Women can have and enjoy sex.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> So you know that these women knew that they would be raped. Now you are just justifying your statement that women that go to a man's room for a drink are whores. A drink is not sex.


They knew they wanted to be in the movies, and knew they would do what they had to do to get a part.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Even if a woman did go for drinks in a man's room, had mind blowing sex and enjoyed it, she's still not a whore.
> 
> I feel I need to state it's 2020, not 1950. Women can have and enjoy sex.


What makes a woman a whore?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> What makes a woman a whore?


Absolutely nothing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Didn't you read that having a drink with a man makes a woman a whore.  So many whores so little time.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It makes her gullible... or proves that she is gullible. I think some of the women were naive.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

If you abuse a woman and then tell her to come back for more or you'll ruin her career, and she does it is still abuse.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, but that isn't what the trial is for, is it?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Yes, but that isn't what the trial is for, is it?


What do you think this trial is for?


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

In my mind if say a general rapes enlisted girls and tells them to keep quiet and the girls still salute and attend him.. it isn't that dissimilar. I'm not exactly a huge women's rights advocate but I have zero doubt that he was raping women and girls and if there was an execution penalty available for that, I would be fine with him getting it. 

The trial itself is strange to say the least. Women have given testimony that Harvey doesn't even have all his equipment and appears to have both male and female organs. I don't know what to make of it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The trial is for rape. Not abuse. Correct? Legal definitions matter. I don't know what the charges are.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Women can have and enjoy sex.


but is it rape ?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here is what I found.
*New York indictments*
On November 3, 2017, the NYPD were preparing a warrant to arrest Weinstein for his alleged rape of Paz de la Huerta, an investigation still pending as of May 2018 and unrelated to the later arrest of Weinstein.[124][125]

On May 25, 2018, Weinstein was charged by New York prosecutors with "rape, criminal sex act, sex abuse and sexual misconduct for incidents involving two separate women." After surrendering to police, he appeared in court before Judge Kevin McGrath. If convicted on the most serious charges, Weinstein could face between five and twenty-five years in prison.[126] Weinstein was released same day on a $1 million bail. He agreed to surrender his passport and wear an ankle monitor confining him to Connecticut and New York. His lawyer Benjamin Brafman said Weinstein intends to plead not guilty.[127][126]

In July 2018, Weinstein was indicted on an additional charge of "predatory sexual assault" against a woman he allegedly forced into oral sex in 2006. The charge has a maximum sentence of life in prison.[128] On October 11, 2018 a judge dismissed one of the sex assault charges.[129] On April 26, 2019, the trial date was set to September 9, 2019.[130] On August 26, 2019, however, the trial date was delayed to January 6, 2020.[131]


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> but is it rape ?


It is rape/sexual assault if it's not consensual. Period.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> The trial is for rape. Not abuse. Correct? Legal definitions matter. I don't know what the charges are.


Rape and sexual assault are the charges.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think we are all on the same page that he's a slime ball. I don't know enough about to law to investigate further.

The crux of our discussion here is that we have different opinions of the women who went back and whether they were complicit.

Each of us responds based on our knowledge and person experience.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

dyrne said:


> Women have given testimony that Harvey doesn't even have all his equipment and appears to have both male and female organs. I don't know what to make of it.


Based on some recent events, he could claim he is now a woman, take a few pills, get therapy and a snip and plead for a suspended sentence since he no longer claims to have the urge. He can keep his money and have California foot the tab.
The gals can be satisfied that he is no longer a danger and can return to "The Bacherlorette".


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Based on some recent events, he could claim he is now a woman, take a few pills, get therapy and a snip and plead for a suspended sentence since he no longer claims to have the urge. He can keep his money and have California foot the tab.
> The gals can be satisfied that he is no longer a danger and can return to "The Bacherlorette".


Your claim of recent events of a suspended sentence are incorrect.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Absolutely nothing.


That is where we disagree.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It makes her gullible... or proves that she is gullible. I think some of the women were naive.


Even that seems naive. I do not think a single young lady walked in there and did not understand full well what was going on.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> That is where we disagree.


How so? What makes a woman a whore in your opinion? Just for giggles, what makes a man a whore? For the record, I don't think men can be whores either.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> How so? What makes a woman a whore in your opinion? Just for giggles, what makes a man a whore? For the record, I don't think men can be whores either.


A man can be a whore, or whore monger, just as a woman can be a whore. That is my simple answer.

It gets really complicated if one wants to consider our cave (wo)man heritage. 

I understand full well why you argue so strenuously for abortion. You want women to enjoy the same privilege afforded men being no consequences from promiscuity.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> That is where we disagree.


The definition of a whore is that of a prostitute. A woman who is paid for sex. It’s traditionally used to portray females but I’d say a man who is paid for sex is also a whore or prostitute. Any negative connotation is placed there by the person using or hearing the word.
The more politically correct term is “sex worker”.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> A man can be a whore, or whore monger, just as a woman can be a whore. That is my simple answer.
> 
> It gets really complicated if one wants to consider our cave (wo)man heritage.
> 
> I understand full well why you argue so strenuously for abortion. You want women to enjoy the same privilege afforded men being no consequences from promiscuity.


Are you trying to get this thread deleted or moved by bringing in abortion? 

Can you answer my question, please? What makes a woman a whore in your opinion?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> The definition of a whore is that of a prostitute. A woman who is paid for sex. I’d say a man who is paid for sex is also a whore or prostitute. Any negative connotation is placed there by the person using or hearing the word.


I disagree. I do not equate prostitute with whore. A prostitute is a whore, but a whore is not necessarily a prostitute.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Via Merriam Webster:

*Definition of whore*
(Entry 1 of 2)

1somewhat old-fashioned : a person who engages in sexual intercourse for pay : PROSTITUTE
2offensive : a promiscuous or immoral woman
3: a male who engages in sexual acts for money
4: a venal or unscrupulous person


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you trying to get this thread deleted or moved by bringing in abortion?
> 
> Can you answer my question, please? What makes a woman a whore in your opinion?


I did answer it, but I guess it was too many words for you. Here is the short answer. Unbridled promiscuity.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I disagree. I do not equate prostitute with whore. A prostitute is a whore, but a whore is not necessarily a prostitute.


just saying what the dictionary essentially says. 
Like many words, it’s layered with meaning bestowed upon it by the culture that uses it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Via Merriam Webster:
> 
> *Definition of whore*
> (Entry 1 of 2)
> ...


That is what I said


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

When I was 17 I was "raped" by my high school english teacher, but I ain't complaining


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

gilberte said:


> When I was 17 I was "raped" by my high school english teacher, but I ain't complaining


We all have stories.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> So you know that these women knew that they would be raped.


No, my contention is they were not raped. A transaction is not rape. And, don't get the wrong idea. I never said that being a whore made for a bad person. I have known more than just a few whores in my life. From Hong Kong to London, West Texas to West Africa. All lovely ladies with hearts of gold. Well, except for one time in Sierra Leon, she tried to steal my watch. They were all making the best of their particular situation, and all looking to get paid.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Even if a woman did go for drinks in a man's room, had mind blowing sex


Have you taken a good look at Weinstein? No woman ever went to bed with him thinking that she was going to have mind blowing sex. If he wasn't a movie producer, he wouldn't have gotten laid three times in his life.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> No, my contention is they were not raped. A transaction is not rape. And, don't get the wrong idea. I never said that being a whore made for a bad person. I have known more than just a few whores in my life. From Hong Kong to London, West Texas to West Africa. All lovely ladies with hearts of gold. Well, except for one time in Sierra Leon, she tried to steal my watch. They were all making the best of their particular situation, and all looking to get paid.


So you don't believe that Harvey raped women.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I have been to men's rooms for a drink.


That is way too much information, for a person of my refined tastes, and delicate constitution.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> So you don't believe that Harvey raped women.


I believe there is a lot of money to be made here. Between lawyers fees, and settlements.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> I believe there is a lot of money to be made here. Between lawyers fees, and settlements.


Your posts on this subject are exactly why women have chosen to have their lawyers negotiate a civil settlement instead of having to stand up in court and be accused of such things as you have said.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> That is way too much information, for a person of my refined tastes, and delicate constitution.


 I may be mistaken but I believe she meant men's living quarters, not men's rest room.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> 4: a venal or unscrupulous person


Pretty much covers everyone in Washington DC.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Your posts on this subject are exactly why women have chosen to have their lawyers negotiate a civil settlement instead of having to stand up in court and be accused of such things as you have said.


Exactly. They would rather "settle" for some money than have their motives questioned.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Exactly. They would rather "settle" for some money than have their motives questioned.


No they would rather not be subject to posts like yours accusing them of things you have no proof of. Called whores and more. Instead men get away with rape because their fellow men use a campaign of hate and untruths to beat the raped women down even more.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> No they would rather not be subject to posts like yours accusing them of things you have no proof of. Called whores and more. Instead men get away with rape because their fellow men use a campaign of hate and untruths to beat the raped women down even more.


They better stiffen their spine, or nothing will change. Takes guts to fight


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> men use a campaign of hate and untruths to beat the raped women down.


Yes, many times they do. But that doesn't excuse going to the room of a movie producer who is known to exchange sex for favors in the movie industry. And then calling it rape years later. It is all about the money, back when it happened, and now that it has hit the headlines.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> They better stiffen their spine, or nothing will change. Takes guts to fight


They are and the tides are changing. Harvey will pay and more rapists after that. Scummy men supporting other scummy men will no longer win the day.


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL; Women have been using sex to try to get things from rich and powerful men since the beginning of time. Muleskinner has put this situation in its most simple form.

Forcible rape is criminal. A transaction is a sale. If a woman thinks she can get a house from me for sex, and the house turns out to be a one-bedroom, one bath, tiny kitchen and no garage instead of the McMansion she had in mind, can she sue me? LOL, that, in essence, is what W... did. Now; I don't know that he DID NOT commit forcible rape---If so he is both creep and criminal.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> They are and the tides are changing. Harvey will pay and more rapists after that. Scummy men supporting other scummy men will no longer win the day.


You just don't get it. This is not a fight. It is weak, and revenge at best. It is not "justice". It is a payday by way of publicity more than anything.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> You just don't get it. This is not a fight. It is weak, and revenge at best. It is not "justice". It is a payday by way of publicity more than anything.


That is an excuse to further beat down women that were raped.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> have no proof of.


Oh, by the way. If we are talking about proof, where exactly is their proof. He said, she said, is not proof. Do they have witnesses, video, forensic blood evidence? Oh, I am sorry, they didn't even report it at the time. Too busy tying to get the job.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> They are and the tides are changing. Harvey will pay and more rapists after that. Scummy men supporting other scummy men will no longer win the day.


How will Harvey pay?


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...72F8DE31DD7958C600D272F&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> They are and the tides are changing. Harvey will pay and more rapists after that. Scummy men supporting other scummy men will no longer win the day.


Yes, and if a few innocent men go to prison, because no one would ever lie about being raped. And we should believe women just because they say so. That is a small price to pay.

PS: I think that Weinstein is a dirty little scum bag, and that seems to be the norm in his business. I don't know what to think about women who would associate with a dirty little scum bags. Talk to them, go to parties with them, and last but not least, go to their room for "drinks".


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> That is an excuse to further beat down women that were raped.


You think men don't get beat down? I real man fights back. Women have to fight rape. You win by getting evidence recorded.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

If you read about what the defense is doing to the women on the stand, THAT is why women settle out of court. I wish the judge wouldn't allow it. 

"The ensuing cross-examination, conducted by Weinstein’s attorney Donna Rotunno, was monstrous.....

Why, Rotunno asked Sciorra, had she ever opened the door in a nightgown? Also, hadn’t Sciorra consumed alcohol at her earlier dinner with Weinstein? Also, wasn’t it true that Sciorra was once sued by a landlord for “major damages” to her apartment?

Here's an excerpt from a WP article. https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...8fd64e-3e20-11ea-baca-eb7ace0a3455_story.html

“Why didn’t you try to run out of the apartment?” Rotunno wanted to know. “Did you scratch him?” she asked. “Try to poke him in the eyes?”

Did Sciorra complain to the condo board, Rotunno asked — seeing as, in Sciorra’s version of events, the doorman had buzzed Weinstein up without first alerting her? “Did you ever ask the doorman why he let Mr. Weinstein up?”


No, she hadn’t. “I was devastated,” Sciorra replied.

_Condo board_? Let’s pause for a moment on that particular question. In what possible universe would we expect a rape victim, in addition to dealing with massive physical and psychological trauma, to whip out her day planner and make note of the next condo board meeting, so that she could show up, wait in line behind two people complaining about the busted elevator and the funky smell in the laundry room, and ask that her rape be added to the agenda?"


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Donna Rotunno,


I have not seen any of the trial. But going by the name Donna, I must assume that his lawyer is a female. So, my question is, is she simply defending her client? Or doing her best to earn her money. This case isn't about rape, although it appears that in at least some of the incidents rape did occur. 

This whole thing is about the money, fame and fortune. The aspiring starlets wanted fame and fortune. The accusers want justice "fame and fortune". And last but not least the States Attorney in New York wants the fame of being the man who prosecuted the evil movie producer. Which will look good on their resume when they hire on with some big law firm, and start trolling for clients.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

HDRider said:


> Putting a poodle in the same room as a pit bull is asking for trouble.


If the pit bull raped my poodle the pit would be dead  Comparing dogs to people is just plan stupid. However in this case the Pit is still in trouble. 
Rape is rape no matter what happened before or after the crime.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> So let's say just talk about the women he raped just once and that did not get in the position to be raped more than once.
> 
> Are they responsible for their own rapes?


It's their word against his and I know you know people will lie to get what they want.
Do you think it's ok to lie just to get what you want?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

101pigs said:


> If the pit bull raped my poodle the pit would be dead  Comparing dogs to people is just plan stupid. However in this case the Pit is still in trouble.
> Rape is rape no matter what happened before or after the crime.


It is a metaphor. Calm down

Going in weak puts one at a disadvantage.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL; If has been my impression that getting rid of women is harder than finding them. The only safe way to do it is to convince them that you must be dumped. Weinstein was not only greedy but stupid. 

If this woman let Weinstein come up to her apartment, why did she think he came? 
Weinee: Young lady, if you wish to be an actress, I need to know if you can act. Ingenue: Well, give me a part to play and I will show you!
Weinee: Hmmm, can you do a love scene? Ingenue: Of couuse!
Weinee: Well, them let's see what you can do? Ingenue, OK, what part do I play?
Weinee: Can you do a bedroom scene? Ingenue: Try me. Weinee---the rest is history.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Miss Kay said:


> I haven't watched it too closely and I have no doubt the guy is a creep, you know, the dirty old man kind of creep but some of the testimony has me scratching my head. Some of the women are saying he raped them numerous times. I have no idea what happened but as a woman, I can tell you without a doubt I would never, ever, give my rapist an opportunity to do it again. They say they dated him afterward, then I heard one say she went to his hotel room several times after, sent flirty texts, etc., afterward so it does not sound like the sort of thing a rape victim would do. Talk about mixed messages!


The way things are being done now is that a woman can have a consentual one night stand. Sleep with Harvey one night. If she regrets it the next morning then she can call it rape. Not saying he isnt a dirt bag but a lot are going on this way of thinking and also looking for their 15 min of fame and a payday.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> LOL; If has been my impression that getting rid of women is harder than finding them. The only safe way to do it is to convince them that you must be dumped. Weinstein was not only greedy but stupid.
> 
> If this woman let Weinstein come up to her apartment, why did she think he came?
> Weinee: Young lady, if you wish to be an actress, I need to know if you can act. Ingenue: Well, give me a part to play and I will show you!
> ...


This is a *true* story of the utter vulgarity of Harvey Weinstein:

"Between the publication of the New York_ Times’_ and _New Yorker_’s exposés revealing decades of sexual harassment and assault accusations surrounding Harvey Weinstein, Fox News reporter Lauren Sivan told her own story involving the producer, claiming he physically cornered her and then masturbated in front of her into a potted plant at New York’s Socialista restaurant in 2007."

*there are a few bad words in the link so Google the quote if you'd like to read the entire article.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> This is a *true* story of the utter vulgarity of Harvey Weinstein:
> 
> "Between the publication of the New York_ Times’_ and _New Yorker_’s exposés revealing decades of sexual harassment and assault accusations surrounding Harvey Weinstein, Fox News reporter Lauren Sivan told her own story involving the producer, claiming he physically cornered her and then masturbated in front of her into a potted plant at New York’s Socialista restaurant in 2007."
> 
> *there are a few bad words in the link so Google the quote if you'd like to read the entire article.


Did she file charges on the pervert back in 2007? Why would anyone put up with that? And just how do we know that it is a true story. Anything a reporters says could be many things, truth not being high on the list.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> Did she file charges on the pervert back in 2007? Why would anyone put up with that? And just how do we know that it is a true story. Anything a reporters says could be many things, truth not being high on the list.


It's obvious you didn't Google the link. I suggest you do so rather than call her a liar outright. Her story is corroborated.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> This is a *true* story of the utter vulgarity of Harvey Weinstein:


So she says.



Irish Pixie said:


> Her story is corroborated.


Can you copy and paste that "corroboration"?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Makes me wonder why the prosecutor chose a weak case.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Makes me wonder why the prosecutor chose a weak case.


They are all weak when it's only he said/she said and many years old.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's obvious you didn't Google the link. I suggest you do so rather than call her a liar outright. Her story is corroborated.


Ok, I went back and read the story. Not corroborated, just something she said to a friend a day later. He said, she said is not evidence. Making a report, and the police collecting evidence from the potted plant, would have been evidence.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Testimony is evidence.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Testimony is evidence.


It is only evidence in court under oath. Not telling your friend, and then both of them not saying anything for years.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> Ok, I went back and read the story. Not corroborated, just something she said to a friend a day later. He said, she said is not evidence. Making a report, and the police collecting evidence from the potted plant, would have been evidence.


Did you miss the part where the chef found the "evidence" of the misdeed, and the co owner of the restaurant was told to say "nothing happened" that night?

You're probably right tho, he didn't do the utterly vulgar and disgusting thing said of him. He's probably a perfect gentleman, and those 100s of women are just lying for a payday. Oops. Most won't get anything- money or justice...

ETA: The chef and co-owner are both men. Do you believe them?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> I have been to men's rooms for a drink. I was not raped and I am not a whore. Having a drink is not having sex.


 Stay out of the men’s room ,men don’t even drink in the men’s room try to use the water fountain down the hall....


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

At least part of this trial is about rape. The only people who know if it was rape or not is the two people involved. So, you have to decide which story sounds more truthful and you do that by what happened after the event based on what they did, not just what they say now. I've not watched all of it but one thing that stuck out in my mind is the woman sent him a text after one of the alleged rapes thanking him. I can't image any circumstance or a world where I would thank the man who just raped me. I'm guessing this guy has raped women so I would have advised the prosecutor to find the women who ran away from this creep, never to return. That woman I would listen to. As it stands, I feel this trial is going to backfire and hurt all those women out there who really are raped because each time the general public (and thus juries) hear a story where it appears the woman lied, they distrust all women who cry rape. If I had a daughter, which I don't, I'd teach her to get away from the rapist as fast as possible and call 911 so there would be a timely recording of the assault and then behave as if this guy is a rapist. As it stands I wouldn't be surprised if he gets off and how's that going to help any of the women he may have actually raped!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Testimony is evidence.


It's not proof.
It's often hearsay.



> said: ↑
> I have been to men's rooms for a drink. I was not raped and I am not a whore. Having a drink is not having sex.


That's one side of the story.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Did you miss the part* where the chef found the "evidence" of the misdeed, and the co owner of the restaurant *was told* to say "nothing happened" that night?


I missed the part where you showed "corroboration".
I see you repeating hearsay.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Again women now believe that if they have a regret or seconds thoughts about having been intimate with someone after the fact that they can call it rape. That is not rape. That is a bad night. A poor choice. Rape is forced. A rape victim will not call or text the "rapist" the next day or later and say thank you. No matter who that person is or what they can do for the "victim". End of story. Yes Harvey is a very large pig of a human. I am not saying he didnt rape some of those women. What I am saying is some of those are not telling the truth and will be found out which is too bad for those that are true victims. Because it discredits those that were really taken advantage of and raped.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Did you miss the part where the chef found the "evidence" of the misdeed, and the co owner of the restaurant was told to say "nothing happened" that night?
> 
> You're probably right tho, he didn't do the utterly vulgar and disgusting thing said of him. He's probably a perfect gentleman, and those 100s of women are just lying for a payday. Oops. Most won't get anything- money or justice...
> 
> ETA: The chef and co-owner are both men. Do you believe them?


And yet no police report, no statements, and no evidence. All hearsay at best. I don't like Weinstein, and I am sure he deserves to be in prison. But we don't put people in prison just because we don't like them. You must have evidence that will hold up in a court of law, not a court of public opinion.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

If there was corroboration, why was he not charged? Two witnesses and No charge, no complaint? What main in his right mind would do that?

Weinstein is undoubtedly a creep, and probably a drunk if he did the above but most of the "rape" complaints sound more like prostitutes who did not get paid more than genuine assaults. The question remains; if it was rape, why were there no, not even one, complaint filed with the police?

54 Metalman is right.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> And yet no police report, no statements, and no evidence. All hearsay at best. I don't like Weinstein, and I am sure he deserves to be in prison. But we don't put people in prison just because we don't like them. You must have evidence that will hold up in a court of law, not a court of public opinion.





Oxankle said:


> If there was corroboration, why was he not charged? Two witnesses and No charge, no complaint? What main in his right mind would do that?
> 
> Weinstein is undoubtedly a creep, and probably a drunk if he did the above but most of the "rape" complaints sound more like prostitutes who did not get paid more than genuine assaults. The question remains; if it was rape, why were there no, not even one, complaint filed with the police?
> 
> 54 Metalman is right.


Isn't it ironic that with no evidence or even hearsay, so many have no issue whatsoever calling many, many women "whores, prostitutes, and liars" for coming forward with their stories regarding Harvey Weinstein? 

Many said the same thing about Bill Cosby, all the women were lying. Nope. His sexual predator butt is in prison for (hopefully) the rest of his life. I hope the same goes for Weinstein. And every other man that used his position to sexual assault women, knowing he had all the power. 

This is the reason women didn't come forward... and this is the reason they do now, in great numbers.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Don't scream, don't scratch the man's eyes out,don't bite off his tongue---Just let him rape you for a month or two, then 20 years later file charges. Let the guy expose himself, tell your friend but never tell the police. Sounds fishy to me. Everyone in Hollywood seemed to know what W... was, but no one complained---least of all those he made into stars.

Tells as much about the women as it does about Weinstein. LOL, I asked the wife about this and she said she heard about "couch casting" before she knew what it meant. (For a city girl who got her first degree at 19, she really did lead a sheltered life.) We are not sprang chickens, so that "couch casting" started long before Weinstein came along.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Many said the same thing about Bill Cosby, all the women were lying. Nope. His sexual predator butt is in prison for (hopefully) the rest of his life. I hope the same goes for Weinstein. And every other man that used his position to sexual assault women, knowing he had all the power..


I was just thinking the same thing about Cosby. The same people then proclaiming his innocence.... I'll leave politics out of it but... there is a connection


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Casting couch goes back to the 20s, 30s.
It's not a secret. 
Women don't go back to a rapist.
Hollywood women have been dropping their pants for about 100 years.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> So you don't believe that Harvey raped women.


Unless this member is sitting on a jury, I don't believe it matters any of us 'thinks' we know what happened. The only thing that counts is the jury and they've yet to hear all the evidence.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Problem is the jury is going to convict using the same public opinion. 
He said she said really offeres no evidence specially 20 years later. 

Men don’t belive this stuff cause we know better. We have seen women withdraw their “consent “ after changing boyfriends , or breakups that were a year after the fact. 
40 years ago my Gfs Bff wanted me desperately and tried often. Last year while talking with that Ex she mentioned her friend and how much she has always detested me. 
That hit me as odd be cause I’d thought otherwise but I thought to myself after 40 years memory s can’t be trusted but just a month ago While going through some old hobby stuff I found some of the letters and Polaroids she had sent me. 
Point is old memories and testimony just can’t be trusted. 
people tend to remember their actions in a better light. And memories of motivations are easily altered.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Some women will stay with an abuser for decades, or back to an abuser over and over and over. They're made to feel worthless, and their self esteem is so low they'll let the abuser to whatever he (or she) wants to them. Literally. The do, say, go, whatever the abuser tells them. 

Why do they do that? I don't know, but I imagine it has something to do with self worth. Just something to think about...


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> And yet no police report, no statements, and no evidence. All hearsay at best. I don't like Weinstein, and I am sure he deserves to be in prison. But we don't put people in prison just because we don't like them. You must have evidence that will hold up in a court of law, not a court of public opinion.


This case, and hundreds like it, were never brought to trial. As a former LEO you know as well, or better than lay people, that not all criminal activity is prosecuted. This case is over the statute of limitations. Many states have made rape/sexual assault a crime with no statute of limitation. It's a good thing. More and more women are coming forward immediately because of the backlash at Weinstein, Crosby, and others. The #MeToo movement worked. 

This *is* the court of public opinion, it was not brought up in criminal court. It's all that most of the women abused by Weinstein are going to get.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I can imagine the feeling of having that control over my freedom.
What a creepy creepy feeling.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Some women will stay with an abuser for decades, or back to an abuser over and over and over. They're made to feel worthless, and their self esteem is so low they'll let the abuser to whatever he (or she) wants to them. Literally. The do, say, go, whatever the abuser tells them.
> 
> Why do they do that? I don't know, but I imagine it has something to do with self worth. Just something to think about...


 But is that rape ?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Many states have made rape/sexual assault a crime with no statute of limitation. It's a good thing.



Why would it be a good thing?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> But is that rape ?


For some that's "marriage".


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> But is that rape ?


Was there nonconsensual sex?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> I was just thinking the same thing about Cosby. *The same people then* proclaiming his innocence.... I'll leave politics out of it *but*... there is a connection


The same were proclaiming his guilt too, based only on what some people said.
Patterns never change.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The same were proclaiming his guilt too, based only on what some people said.
> Patterns never change.


I could say something about how our brains work differently, but, well, never mind.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Was there nonconsensual sex?


Every single one of the women speaking at this trial that I have seen have said that it was. They agreed to have sex with him in exchange for money or roles. They went back to him many times for sex for more roles or money. Just because they have regrets now about it does not fit the definition of rape. Its black and white. If you agree to do something and then later regret it you should not be able to claim rape!!! Its not rape if your both drunk and bump uglies. Then the next morning you see that the guy you thought was a ten is now looking like a three. Same for the guy's!! If he goes to bed with a ten and wakes up wanting to chew his arm off to get away from the two laying next to him, he cant claim rape. Remember women can rape men as well!!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL "Hollywood women have been dropping their pants for over 100 years"

Yes; and for promotions in offices all over the country, too.,

I have no use for rapists, but proof is needed. NO means NO, but common sense says don't go back. Incest, another matter altogether. Many times that is not disclosed for years.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I could say something about how our brains work differently, but, well, never mind.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Sorry but I am not taking your word over theirs.


Of course you're not.
A jury should though, since one story negates the other.


----------



## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

painterswife said:


> You say they agreed to have sex. They say they did not. Sorry but I am not taking your word over theirs.


A man invites you to his room to talk about a movie part. He forces himself on you. You leave and keep coming back because he keeps saying you will get a part. You are agreeing to sex for a movie role. Weather you wanted to or not you are agreeing to it. Dont like it? Dont do it!!! Your not a young girl being touched by your dad and dont know any difference. You are an adult 17-30 yrs old and know what your doing. Remember you are the one that says you would know slavery is wrong and wouldnt do it. What makes this different? You know sex is bad and should not be given to get your way. That makes it rape!! So by your own statemnets you would not go back again and again to the same person who "raped" you. You dont live with them so you have no reason to return do you?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There seems to be a bit of confusion over one of my posts. This should make it easier:



Irish Pixie said:


> Some women will stay with an abuser for decades, or back to an abuser over and over and over. They're made to feel worthless, and their self esteem is so low they'll let the abuser to whatever he (or she) wants to them. Literally. The do, say, go, whatever the abuser tells them.
> 
> Why do they do that? I don't know, but I imagine it has something to do with self worth. Just something to think about...





AmericanStand said:


> But is that rape ?





Irish Pixie said:


> Was there nonconsensual sex?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Was there nonconsensual sex?


 It was your post. Could you explain it to us ?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

This argument goes in circles, and no one's mind is being changed.

Maybe Harv will go to jail and with much introspection and prayer, find out what rape means.

Maybe someday more women will be unafraid, and confront rapists in a meaningful way.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

This thread has been enlightening. What I've read is there are people that still believe that something other than a rapist causes rape, all or most women will have sex, lie, or pretty much do anything to get what they want, any woman that enjoys sex and has multiple partners is a whore, and sexually assaulting women is so common in some circles that it's just something that is done. 

Thankfully, most people don't think like this.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> This thread has been enlightening. What I've read is there are people that still believe that something other than a rapist causes rape, all or most women will have sex, lie, or pretty much do anything to get what they want, any woman that enjoys sex and has multiple partners is a whore, and sexually assaulting women is so common in some circles that it's just something that is done.
> 
> Thankfully, most people don't think like this.


Your getting warmer


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> This argument goes in circles, and no one's mind is being changed.
> 
> Maybe Harv will go to jail and with much introspection and prayer, find out what rape means.
> 
> Maybe someday more women will be unafraid, and confront rapists in a meaningful way.


Maybe when men raped by other men more powerful than themselves as often as women have been and then face the abuse of the armchair critics and understand that you are expected to have proof of being raped to meet their standards.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> This thread has been enlightening. What I've read is there are people that still believe that something other than a rapist causes rape, all or most women will have sex, lie, or pretty much do anything to get what they want, any woman that enjoys sex and has multiple partners is a whore, and sexually assaulting women is so common in some circles that it's just something that is done.
> 
> Thankfully, most people don't think like this.


 Right on most


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> There seems to be a bit of confusion over one of my posts. This should make it easier:


How does mere repetition "make it easier"?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Maybe when men raped by other men more powerful than themselves as often as women have been and then face the abuse of the armchair critics and understand that you are expected to have proof of being raped to meet their standards.


 Ummm it’s always been that way.........something *YOU just don’t seem to get !*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Maybe when men raped by other men more powerful than themselves as often as women have been and then face the abuse of the armchair critics and *understand that you are expected to have proof* of being raped to meet their standards.


We already understand one is expected to have proof of criminal charges.

Anecdotes aren't "proof".
Those telling them lose credibility when their actions are different from their words.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Maybe when men raped by other men more powerful than themselves as often as women have been and then face the abuse of the armchair critics and understand that you are expected to have proof of being raped to meet their standards.


I was raped at 12 while walking across school grounds, and didn't tell a soul until I was over 50 because I knew somehow it would have been my fault. Just like some have said on this thread.

Thankfully, most people don't blame rape survivors. Women are coming forward now that rape is taken seriously, women are believed, and more rapists are off the street.

My grandsons are taught by word and example from good men that completely understand consent. And that's a great thing.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I Am saddened to hear that. 
That somewhat explains your attitude of taking it out on every man. 
And THAT explains why guys don’t belive every woman that says she was raped.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I was raped at 12 while walking across school grounds, and didn't tell a soul until I was over 50 because I knew somehow it would have been my fault. Just like some have said on this thread.
> 
> Thankfully, most people don't blame rape survivors. Women are coming forward now that rape is taken seriously, women are believed, and more rapists are off the street.
> 
> My grandsons are taught by word and example from good men that completely understand consent. And that's a great thing.


I am sorry that happened to you. Very glad your grandsons are understanding what is right. Did you keep going back to the person that did that to you? Did you keep going back wanting something from him? I think not.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I was raped at 12 while walking across school grounds, and didn't tell a soul until I was over 50 because I knew somehow it would have been my fault. Just like some have said on this thread.
> 
> Thankfully, most people don't blame rape survivors. Women are coming forward now that rape is taken seriously, women are believed, and more rapists are off the street.
> 
> My grandsons are taught by word and example from good men that completely understand consent. And that's a great thing.


Many of us have been sexually assaulted but we also have to undertand that each and every situation can't be judged by our own.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I was beat within a inch of my life on campus most days when 11 and 13. 
I would say the worst part of your rape is whatever head job your family had put on you to make you think that it would be your fault. 
My family never believed me or seem to care about any of the beatings I took as the new kid in school. 
But thank god the Thought never entered my mind that it was my fault


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Many of us have been sexually assaulted but we also have to undertand that each and every situation can't be judged by our own.


How did I judge someone else's situation? I detailed my own.

One in six women have been sexually assaulted. One in 33 men have been sexually assaulted.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> How did I judge someone else's situation? I detailed my own.


You don't think your present is colored by your past?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> You don't think your present is colored by your past?


Definitely. I survived, so I advocate for other rape survivors. 

I tell my #MeToo story so that others may be able to tell their own. I did nothing wrong, and neither did anyone else that was raped.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

My uncle once said that rape is an intimate beating. A woman should be no more ashamed of being raped than a man should be of getting his rear kicked in a bar fight.

But back in the day, women were often outright told that if they were raped it was their fault. Some cultures still teach this, that is why Somali women cover up with tents and head coverings. If a woman did certain things she should expect to be raped because she was "asking for it". Even in this country, women were once required to dress a certain way so they would not be enticing to men. (check out the history of womens swimwear for a good explanation) But men or women who press regular assault charges are not put on trial like rape victims are. Even those that come back time after time could be rape victims. It's not just sex, the rapist could have some hold over his victim which makes her feel like she has no choice. Rape is forced sex, if your choice is sex or torture (a choice forced on many WWII concentration camp women) and you choose sex, it is still rape.

But trading sex for a chance at fame and fortune where the fame and fortune never happens is not rape. It's like the old saying about the woman filing rape charges and saying she didn't know it was rape until the check bounced.

My definition is rape is forced sex. If you are offered something to your benefit in return for sex, it is not rape. I suppose you could argue your life or your family members lives are a benefit, but if the rapist wasn't threatening those, they would not be in danger. Something the rapist is threatening to take is not a benefit.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Advocating for others that have been raped and hoping they get their day in court is a good thing. Knowing what it feels like to not want to tell what happened because of the extra dose of shame and intimidation heaped on a woman does not mean that someone does not want a fair court trial, not a lynching.

We see it over and over in this very thread. These women have been judged and not one of you are sitting in that court room and feeling their pain. Harvey is getting a fair trial. If they find him guilty then he will get what he deserves.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> One in 33 men have been sexually assaulted.


lol now how accurate do you think that is ?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> lol now how accurate do you think that is ?


https://www.rainn.org/


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> How did I judge someone else's situation? I detailed my own.
> 
> One in four women have been sexually assaulted. One in 33 men have been sexually assaulted.


You have expressed triump that Weinstein shall pay, you have declared him a rapist, etc and introduced an article addressing his vulgarity. 

I would hope he's convicted and hope a jury feels compelled to sentence him so he will pay and while he's a gross pig, it's still not a conviction. 

In a recent discussion, we covered naunces of the law and how parole boards and I think we can extrapolate to include jurors interpret evidence and testimony. 

It doesn't take an outsider to help one understand they were raped but it does take a bit more to legally establish in order for a jury to convict. 

If that weren't the case Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson would still be incarcertated. Public sentiment believes both committed significant crimes but the juries didn't seem to agree with public sentiment.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> We see it *over and over* in this very thread.


We've seen it countless times over many years.
Patterns......


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Advocating for others that have been raped and hoping they get their day in court is a good thing. Knowing what it feels like to not want to tell what happened because of the extra dose of shame and intimidation heaped on a woman does not mean that someone does not want a fair court trial, not a lynching.
> 
> We see it over and over in this very thread. These women have been judged and not one of you are sitting in that court room and *feeling their pain*. Harvey is getting a fair trial. If they find him guilty then he will get what he deserves.


We know, only you can feel their pain. You feel so much more than anyone else possibly can.

The thing that makes me feel pain is how condescending, and so absolutely self unaware your little paragraph was.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Hmmmm.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> You have expressed triump that Weinstein shall pay, you have declared him a rapist, etc and introduced an article addressing his vulgarity.
> 
> I would hope he's convicted and hope a jury feels compelled to sentence him so he will pay and while he's a gross pig, it's still not a conviction.
> 
> ...


I can't convict anyone, therefore it's my opinion.

As you recently advised me on the inmate thread, we're still allowed our own opinion.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Hmmmm.


I hope you brought more buckets.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

We are not the jury and yet what happens in a very public trial could affect many people. It could affect other women either in a good way (to encourage them to seek help) or in a bad way (it will make them afraid to come forward). It could also affect men who are afraid every woman they ever had sex with can now come forward an accuse them of rape. Like it or not we must teach young women to say what they mean and mean what they say. Otherwise, young men who are already confused by women will have an even harder time with proper relationships. Being raped as a child (and my heart goes out to you and others) is very different than a grown woman going to a man's hotel room who has a reputation as a rapist. Even so, if he rapes her it is her responsibility to call the police. He's not her husband, she's not staying for the kids, she's not a sex slave afraid to leave, etc. so if she was raped she must say something in a timely manner. To not do so is sending a very loud message to him and now to the jury. I just don't buy the argument that women are so fragile and weak that they can't say anything (again, I'm saying women - not children). The women I know are very strong independent women and God help the man that would cross them.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Just because he was a known rapist to those he raped, does not mean that those going to his room for a drink knew of that.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I hope you brought more buckets.


Should be a handbasket. We all know where threads go when people start getting personal.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Should be a handbasket.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Advocating for others that have been raped and hoping they get their day in court is a good thing. Knowing what it feels like to not want to tell what happened because of the extra dose of shame and intimidation heaped on a woman does not mean that someone does not want a fair court trial, not a lynching.
> 
> We see it over and over in this very thread. These women have been judged and not one of you are sitting in that court room and feeling their pain. Harvey is getting a fair trial. If they find him guilty then he will get what he deserves.


Nobody is saying he doesnt deserve to get everything coming to him....and more. Share a cell with a guy named Bubba and be passed around till a fart sounds like a yawn!!! Also nobody ( and I went back and read the whole thread again) has said or even implied that these women are whores. What has been said is that most of the testimonie heard has been from women that their story doesnt add up to what 99% of the world would consider a true rape. In their own words they have said that they were promised things intrade for sex. That is not rape. Because they didnt receive what they were promised does not make it rape. This does not make them whores or sluts as you keep saying we are implying. Far from it. It does mean they were nieve or uneducated in the ways of the world. They kept going back to Harvey expecting things in return for sex. He is a pig and lower than low for doing what he did. They should have known better and not kept going back for more. As you have said over and over also. No I am not in the court room, But neither are you!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

54metalman said:


> Nobody is saying he doesnt deserve to get everything coming to him....and more. Share a cell with a guy named Bubba and be passed around till a fart sounds like a yawn!!! Also nobody ( and I went back and read the whole thread again) has said or even implied that these women are whores. What has been said is that most of the testimonie heard has been from women that their story doesnt add up to what 99% of the world would consider a true rape. In their own words they have said that they were promised things intrade for sex. That is not rape. Because they didnt receive what they were promised does not make it rape. This does not make them whores or sluts as you keep saying we are implying. Far from it. It does mean they were nieve or uneducated in the ways of the world. They kept going back to Harvey expecting things in return for sex. He is a pig and lower than low for doing what he did. They should have known better and not kept going back for more. As you have said over and over also. No I am not in the court room, But neither are you!


It was said that woman who go to a man's room for a drink are whores. Plain as day. Post 48

I am not in the court room and I am willing to leave it up to them to convict or not convict.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Isn't it ironic that with no evidence or even hearsay, so many have no issue whatsoever calling many, many women "whores, prostitutes, and liars" for coming forward with their stories regarding Harvey Weinstein?
> 
> Many said the same thing about Bill Cosby, all the women were lying. Nope. His sexual predator butt is in prison for (hopefully) the rest of his life. I hope the same goes for Weinstein. And every other man that used his position to sexual assault women, knowing he had all the power.
> 
> This is the reason women didn't come forward... and this is the reason they do now, in great numbers.


You are correct. People in general always think the worst of someone, rather than believe them. On the other hand there have been too many cases of people, men and women both, lying about something just to get revenge. That is why it is so important for victims and witnesses to come forward at once, and make a complaint.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> It was said that woman who go to a man's room for a drink are whores. Plain as day. Post 48


Yes it was, and I said it. The reason I said it is because most of the time it is true. So if you are investigating a rape, you don't want the victim to say that they went to the room willingly. Because if it ever goes to court, you are going to loose.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Yes it was, and I said it. The reason I said it is because most of the time it is true. So if you are investigating a rape, you don't want the victim to say that they went to the room willingly. Because if it ever goes to court, you are going to loose.


If that is a reason for losing in court than it is a prime example of blaming the victim. Wrong in so many ways and a perfect example of why women are afraid to come forward.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

", all or most women will have sex, lie, or pretty much do anything to get what they want(No one said that but we all know that SOME women will.), any woman that enjoys sex and has multiple partners is a whore( No, but she is loose, and sometimes taking favors for it, which comes close to making her a whore), and sexually assaulting women is so common in some circles that it's just something that is done(no, sexual assaults have never been approved of by any poster here)."

In these discussions it is best if we not assume ill will prompts the opponents comments. Rational thought based on real life work and experience can be expressed without assuming that our participants are biased. "Feelings" don't carry much weight in court.

LOL, but nothing keeps us from "feeling" our opponents are nuts.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> This *is* the court of public opinion, it was not brought up in criminal court. It's all that most of the women abused by Weinstein are going to get.


You are right. Actually most rapes are never reported. Or reported so long after the fact, that there is no evidence to collect. I took the initial report on a rape once. As the victim was telling me about it, she said that she gone home and taken a shower before calling the police. Because she felt so dirty. No evidence, no case, no arrest, no trial.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> If that is a reason for losing in court than it is a prime example of blaming the victim. Wrong in so many ways and a perfect example of why women are afraid to come forward.


Do I not bear some of the blame if I walk down a street in a bad part of town, flashing cash, all alone, late at night, and some dude conks me in the head and takes my money?

That would be stupid. Asking for it, some might say.

Maybe you taught your daughter differently than I taught mine. I told her, don't be stupid. Don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Another example of blaming the victim. Another reason that women don't want to go to court to be blamed again for something that is not their fault.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> If that is a reason for losing in court than it is a prime example of blaming the victim. Wrong in so many ways and a perfect example of why women are afraid to come forward.


If the officer took the statement, when he took it to the prosecutor, the prosecutor would read the statement. When he read that the victim went to the room to have a drink, or actually had a drink with the suspect. He would probably decline to prosecute, because of the small likelihood of getting a conviction. Without a lot of other evidence, forensic evidence with blood and semen, bruises, cuts, broken fingernails, statements from neighbors that they heard a struggle, there is almost no chance of getting a conviction. And if it is months or years after the fact, without a eye witness there is no chance of a conviction.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Another example of blaming the victim. Another reason that women don't want to go to court to be blamed again for something that is not their fault.


You ever heard anyone say, "don't be a victim"?

Are you so dumb you'd walk down that street?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> https://www.rainn.org/


I read that. I couldn’t see where they got their statistics from and I don’t know anybody that’s ever reported anything to them


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

How can a man defend himself from a “she said “ 20 years later ?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> How can a man defend himself from a “she said “ 20 years later ?


I don't think a man would be convicted after 20 years if it was just one woman unless she really had some good evidence. However, it seems that most men that get away with it once do it again. That is usually what will get them.

As other posters here have said, it his word against hers most of the time and when women are blamed for putting them in a situation where they get raped or assaulted they seldom want to brave being called a whore.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Not every young female has had the luck to have parents explain “don’t be stupid” to them. 

Humans make decisions based on experience or the lack of it, plus the guidance they have had or the lack of it. 

Saying “they ought to know” denies that some simply don’t.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Not every young female has had the luck to have parents explain “don’t be stupid” to them.
> 
> Humans make decisions based on experience or the lack of it, plus the guidance they have had or the lack of it.
> 
> Saying “they ought to know” denies that some simply don’t.


Then they will suffer, and that is a shame. Life can be brutal.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Then they will suffer, and that is a shame. Life can be brutal.


Rape is already suffering, blaming them for the rape is not really needed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> It was said that woman who go to a man's room for a drink are whores.


Some are.



painterswife said:


> As other posters here have said, it his word against hers most of the time and *when women are blamed* for putting them in a situation where they get raped or assaulted they seldom want to brave being called a whore.


It's their own testimony.
No one "blamed" them for anything other than what they said themselves.



painterswife said:


> Rape is already suffering, blaming them for the rape is not really needed.


Lots of things aren't "needed".


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Rape is already suffering, blaming them for the rape is not really needed.


Again, you miss the point.

They were made vulnerable by a lack of awareness, no one taught them to not be stupid.

And then people like you come along and say don't blame the victim, she can wear next to nothing and feel safe around men drinking and preying on stupid girls.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I hear you. I am flabbergasted at the garments that parents allow their daughters to wear in public.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

No. What you wear does not cause a rape. It is not the reason for a rape.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> No. What you wear does not cause a rape. It is not the reason for a rape.


I think I heard that somewhere before.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I hear you. I am flabbergasted at the garments that parents allow their daughters to wear in public.


You should never wear less than it takes to conceal a firearm. 

You can put the firearm in a bag while at the beach or pool side.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I didn’t SAY that what you wear causes a rape. 

I think women who understand reality should consider not wearing a pork chop necklace in public where you can’t tell by looking who the lunatic wolves are. 

Maybe being able to make that decision wisely is part of learning not to be stupid.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> I don't think a man would be convicted after 20 years if it was just one woman unless she really had some good evidence. However, it seems that most men that get away with it once do it again. That is usually what will get them.
> 
> As other posters here have said, it his word against hers most of the time and when women are blamed for putting them in a situation where they get raped or assaulted they seldom want to brave being called a whore.


 So if only one woman says so she’s a liar but if ten do he is ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

What you wear doesn’t cause rape but it may encourage it at a particular time


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Clothes don't encourage rape. Different things arouse different people. Women of all ages and wearing all kinds of clothes get raped. Blaming it on clothing choice is another blame it on the victim instead of the perpetrator. What a wonderful thing to teach our children.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Wait...does a cash settlement = rape?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Do I not bear some of the blame if I walk down a street in a bad part of town, flashing cash, all alone, late at night, and some dude conks me in the head and takes my money?
> 
> That would be stupid. Asking for it, some might say.
> 
> Maybe you taught your daughter differently than I taught mine. I told her, don't be stupid. Don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation.


No, the ONLY one at fault for rape is the rapist. Period.

It is not the victim’s fault for wearing a particular outfit, or for being in a particular place, or for drinking or whatever excuse we want to use to convince ourselves that the victim must have done something to bring the rape on herself (or himself). Otherwise, we have to deal with the reality that rape can happen anywhere to anyone. To our friends and family. To us. And that’s a scary reality. Far easier to say the victim must have done something.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If you think the drunken mostly naked girl at the ghetto party at 3 am is equally likely to be raped As the modestly dressed girl carrying a pistol at the Townhall at 2pm you are denying Reality.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> If you think the drunken mostly naked girl at the ghetto party at 3 am is equally likely to be raped As the modestly dressed girl carrying a pistol at the Townhall at 2pm you are denying Reality.


Why? If rape was about arousal then teenage boys would have no control at all. In fact is about a mindset where a person thinks that doing what they want is their right. Posts where you equate rape with what a person is wearing feeds that sickness.

Why don't we have all kinds of rapes on the topless beaches around the world? People know it wrong and it is not about what some one is wearing. Teach your children that. It will serve the world better.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, the ONLY one at fault for rape is the rapist. Period.
> 
> It is not the victim’s fault for wearing a particular outfit, or for being in a particular place, or for drinking or whatever excuse we want to use to convince ourselves that the victim must have done something to bring the rape on herself (or himself). Otherwise, we have to deal with the reality that rape can happen anywhere to anyone. To our friends and family. To us. And that’s a scary reality. Far easier to say the victim must have done something.


Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Why? If rape was about arousal then teenage boys would have no control at all. In fact is about a mindset where a person thinks that doing what they want is their right. Posts where you equate rape with what a person is wearing feeds that sickness.
> 
> Why don't we have all kinds of rapes on the topless beaches around the world? People know it wrong and it is not about what some one is wearing. Teach your children that. It will serve the world better.


Its about context and signals. 
Again What are the likelihood of a rape in each situation?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Its about context and signals.
> Again What are the likelihood of a rape in each situation?


Signals are in your own mind. Unless you ask someone to have sex with you and they say yes it is not allowed to take what you want.

There are two many ways to interpret your so called signals and you may be wrong. Rape can happen anywhere any time one person over powers another. Teaching them to wear a certain outfit or only go to certain places won't stop all rapes. Rapes happen in our homes, our workplaces, our schools, or public places. Instead teach our children that there is no excuse for rape and nothing they do makes it their fault. That will serve the world better and make them want to report it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.


If you are correct, then how do you account for the 60 year old grandmother who is raped in her own home? How about the 13 year old girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt who was raped in the stairwell of her school? What did they do that was “stupid” to bring on the rape? 

Rape is about power and control and the only one who bears the blame is the rapist.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Do I not bear some of the blame if I walk down a street in a bad part of town, flashing cash, all alone, late at night, and some dude conks me in the head and takes my money?
> 
> That would be stupid. Asking for it, some might say.
> 
> Maybe you taught your daughter differently than I taught mine. I told her, don't be stupid. Don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation.


Every woman over a certain age is nervous in some situations. Every woman that has been sexually assaulted is extremely cautious because they know what can happen, those that have not know they should be cautious, but also think it can't happen to them. Even if foolish, women are never asking to be raped. Not ever.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> If you are correct, then how do you account for the 60 year old grandmother who is raped in her own home? How about the 13 year old girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt who was raped in the stairwell of her school? What did they do that was “stupid” to bring on the rape?
> 
> Rape is about power and control and the only one who bears the blame is the rapist.


I pretty sure we all understand about power and control, rape, etc.
But this was about truth.
Does a woman get raped, go back to the rapist, repeatedly, and then call it rape?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> I pretty sure we all understand about power and control, rape, etc.
> But this was about truth.
> Does a woman get raped, go back to the rapist, repeatedly, and then call it rape?


Why do women (and men) go back to their abuser? It has everything to do with self worth.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> I pretty sure we all understand about power and control, rape, etc.
> But this was about truth.
> Does a woman get raped, go back to the rapist, repeatedly, and then call it rape?


People have been raped by people they are in a relationship and stay in that relationship. So the answer is yes, it happens. It is still rape if they said no.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> If that is a reason for losing in court than it is a prime example of blaming the victim. Wrong in so many ways and a perfect example of why women are afraid to come forward.


It doesn't have anything to do with blaming the victim. It is about having enough evidence to get a conviction. He said, she said, especially years after the fact, is not evidence.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> It doesn't have anything to do with blaming the victim. It is about having enough evidence to get a conviction. He said, she said, especially years after the fact, is not evidence.


Testimony in court is evidence and is up to the jury to weigh.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> It doesn't have anything to do with blaming the victim. It is about having enough evidence to get a conviction. He said, she said, especially years after the fact, is not evidence.


And a jury will decide what happens, correct?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> If you are correct, then how do you account for the 60 year old grandmother who is raped in her own home? How about the 13 year old girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt who was raped in the stairwell of her school? What did they do that was “stupid” to bring on the rape?
> 
> Rape is about power and control and the only one who bears the blame is the rapist.


That is an absurd question


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> It doesn't have anything to do with blaming the victim. It is about having enough evidence to get a conviction. He said, she said, especially years after the fact, is not evidence.


Lack of evidence should not weigh on the fact that a woman went to a man's room for a drink. There are lots of he said, she said but location is not a lack of evidence.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Testimony in court is evidence and is up to the jury to weigh.


Exactly, and if the jury is made up of a bunch of bible thumping old women, and the victim went up to the hotel room and had a drink or two or three, you are not going to get a conviction.

Sorry, but that is how it usually happens in the real world.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Exactly, and if the jury is made up of a bunch of bible thumping old women, and the victim went up to the hotel room and had a drink or two or three, you are not going to get a conviction.


Not for a prosecutor to decide. It is not a lack of evidence. It is a judgement of the worthiness of the witness that is not based on facts. Going to a man's room for drinks does not invite a rape.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why do women (and men) go back to their abuser? It has everything to do with self worth.


We're talking about Weinstein. 
A whole different ballgame of making a trade.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> Exactly, and if the jury is made up of a bunch of bible thumping old women, and the victim went up to the hotel room and had a drink or two or three, you are not going to get a conviction.


Maybe not, maybe those bible thumpin' old woman have been sexually assaulted. Isn't that the chance that occurs in every trial?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

painterswife said:


> People have been raped by people they are in a relationship and stay in that relationship. So the answer is yes, it happens. It is still rape if they said no.


We're not talking about a relationship. 
This is about a trade.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> We're talking about Weinstein.
> A whole different ballgame of making a trade.


We're talking about rape/sexual assault it doesn't really matter who it's with. Woman have stayed with a husband or partner that raped or abused her because she felt she had no other choice.

Go ahead and think it was some kind of trade. A homesteading message forum isn't going to change your mind. The trial will tell all, just like it did with Cosby.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> We're not talking about a relationship.
> This is about a trade.


That is your opinion. That is not the testimony of the women that had a relationship with him and was raped twice.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> And a jury will decide what happens, correct?





painterswife said:


> Not for a prosecutor to decide. It is not a lack of evidence. It is a judgement of the worthiness of the witness that is not based on facts. Going to a man's room for drinks does not invite a rape.


Before the case ever gets before a judge and jury, a prosecutor will decide if he or she thinks they have a good chance of winning the case. If they don't think they will win, because of the location, drinks involved, or a lack of anything other than the victims word. They will not take it to a grand jury. If the case is never heard by a grand jury, there isn't going to be a trial.

And, yes the prosecutor decides what goes to trial and what doesn't.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> Before the case ever gets before a judge and jury, a prosecutor will decide if he or she thinks they have a good chance of winning the case. If they don't think they will win, because of the location, drinks involved, or a lack of anything other than the victims word. They will not take it to a grand jury. If the case is never heard by a grand jury, there isn't going to be a trial.


Weinstein is in court now with sitting jury.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"I know about the emails with Harvey, and that’s why I’m still here. I know it’s complicated and difficult, but that doesn’t change the fact that he raped me," Mann said. "I’m not looking for an excuse. ... I own my behavior."

Rotunno also asked her about emails she sent to an online self-help platform called Relationship Reinvented, in which Mann described having drinks or dinner with Weinstein and having a friendly relationship with him after their New York encounter."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/ente...ni-details-jessica-mann-testimony/4648174002/


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bottom line, you do not have the right to have sex with anyone against their will.
Even if they are wearing an outfit you think is provocative.
Even if they came to your room.
Even if you have had consensual sex with them previously.
Even if they are in an area you think they don’t belong.
Even if they are drinking.
Even if they are doing any of the myriad things rapists use to convince themselves that it is their right to have sex with an unwilling person.


What a strange world you live in where no means no except...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Before the case ever gets before a judge and jury, a prosecutor will decide if he or she thinks they have a good chance of winning the case. If they don't think they will win, because of the location, drinks involved, or a lack of anything other than the victims word. They will not take it to a grand jury. If the case is never heard by a grand jury, there isn't going to be a trial.
> 
> And, yes the prosecutor decides what goes to trial and what doesn't.


Yet going to a man's room for drinks does not invite a rape and should not be the reason a case is not prosecuted. Thankfully the bias on that crap is changing.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Maybe not, maybe those bible thumpin' old woman have been sexually assaulted. Isn't that the chance that occurs in every trial?


Actually, no. You have a better chance of winning a rape case, with a bunch of older white men on the jury. Women are less likely to believe a female than the men are.

Lawyers don't like to loose. If the prosecutor has been at it for many years, and knows how a jury in his county will usually vote. He uses his past experience to decide if he has a chance of winning. If they don't think they have a good chance of winning, they may not even try. 

Most people don't have any idea how much authority the prosecutor has. They decide what constitutes a crime, they decide if they have enough evidence, and what kind of evidence in order to even begin the process. That is often why the so often go for a plea deal. Loosing looks bad on their resume.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> Actually, no. You have a better chance of winning a rape case, with a bunch of older white men on the jury. Women are much harder on each other than the men are.


So you say. I'm not a bible thumper, but I know who I'd believe...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> Bottom line, you do not have the right to have sex with anyone against their will.
> Even if they are wearing an outfit you think is provocative.
> Even if they came to your room.
> Even if you have had consensual sex with them previously.
> ...


Thank you.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> We're talking about rape/sexual assault it doesn't really matter who it's with. Woman have stayed with a husband or partner that raped or abused her because she felt she had no other choice.
> 
> Go ahead and think it was some kind of trade. A homesteading message forum isn't going to change your mind. The trial will tell all, just like it did with Cosby.


How much is her *** worth vs a movie part?
I would say about a hundred bucks vs maybe millions?
What a good trade.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> How much is her *** worth vs a movie part?
> I would say about a hundred bucks vs maybe millions?
> What a good trade.


Sure, whatever. A woman is only worth the sex, right?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure, whatever. A woman is only worth the sex, right?


That's up to her for her pursuit of what she is doing.
I would spread my legs for a movie part worth millions in a heartbeat if I was a woman.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> That's up to her for her pursuit of what she is doing.
> I would spread my legs for a movie part worth millions in a heartbeat if I was a woman.


But not as a man? Odd...


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Weinstein is in court now with sitting jury.


Then they likely believe they have enough evidence to get a conviction. I have not been following this case, and don't have any idea what the evidence is. I am only speaking from personal experience, on cases I have worked or followed.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> That's up to her for her pursuit of what she is doing.
> I would spread my legs for a movie part worth millions in a heartbeat if I was a woman.


If they wish to spread their legs for a movie part then no problem. Getting raped for one is a problem and not acceptable for someone to think they can take by force


.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> So you say. I'm not a bible thumper, but I know who I'd believe...


It is not just what I say. I have worked with prosecutors on cases, and I have seen it happen.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> But not as a man? Odd...


I paid once, $100 for drop dead gorgeous. 
That would be the high end.
So $100 for a movie part?
Any day.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> So nothing current...


Current or not, doesn't have anything to do with it. It is all about human nature, and how people react under a given set of circumstances. Once you get in court, and all the evidence has been heard, it boils down to who put on the better show. Remember the O.J. trial.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

elevenpoint said:


> That would be the high end.


It has been a very long time since $100.00 would buy high end. Just saying.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> I paid once, $100 for drop dead gorgeous.
> That would be the high end.
> So $100 for a movie part?
> Any day.


OK.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> OK.


Yes or no.
Is Kobe Bryant a rapist?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

elevenpoint said:


> High end in 1999.


Sorry, not since the early 80's.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> Yes or no.
> Is Kobe Bryant a rapist?


I don't know, and neither do you.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't know, and neither do you.


Research his settlement and his admission of that incident and get back with me.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

If I were walking among tigers I would not wear a steak necklace. If I were a young woman alone in a bad part of town I would not want to dress like a hooker. Rape is entirely the fault of tje rapist, but there no point in making oneself a target. Don't bleed in the company of sharks.

That said, there is no safe way to dress---grandmothers in mother hubbards have been raped. Just do nothing to make yourself a target.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

muleskinner2 said:


> Sorry, not since the early 80's.


Looks like I got screwed. 
Twice.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> Research his settlement and his admission of that incident and get back with me.


You can judge by anything you'd like.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

We have been discussing this for days. I have been replying based upon personal experience, in the real world. And in the real world, not the world you might wish we all lived in, but the real world. How a woman dresses, how she acts, and where she goes does have an effect on what can happen to her. The facts don't care about your feelings.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> We have been discussing this for days. I have been replying based upon personal experience, in the real world. And in the real world, not the world you might wish we all lived in, but the real world. How a woman dresses, how she acts, and where she goes does have an effect on what can happen to her. The facts don't care about your feelings.


The facts are history. The world is changing. There is no justification for rape no matter how badly women who were raped in the past have been treated, called whores or blamed because vthey wore something some man thought was a call to rape her.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> The facts are history. The world is changing. There is no justification for rape no matter how badly women who were raped in the past have been treated, called whores or blamed because vthey wore something some man thought was a call to rape her.


Yes, times are changing. But change comes terribly slow. And meanwhile we have to live in the here and now.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> There is no justification for rape


You nor anyone else has ever heard me attempt to justify rape.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> You nor anyone else has ever heard me attempt to justify rape.


Your posts sure seem to lay blame on the victim s for their choices.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> As I said before, I don't know.


That goes against what all sexual assault victim advocates say.
Are you sure about your answer?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Isn't a pimp a middle man? I don't know much about the lifestyle. I won't judge either, as long as the woman consents.


Only in your lower class operations. In all of the years, all of the places, the countries, night clubs, hotels and camps in the bush in Africa. I always deal directly with the woman in charge. I have been out of the loop for the past thirty years, being married and all.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Your posts sure seem to lay blame on the victim s for their choices.


No, that is not my intention. I am only saying that in the real world, in my experience, there are consequences for choices. Intentions don't matter in the end, it's appearances that you will be judged on.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> As sure as you are about paying for sex.


Kobe paid for sex with a settlement. 
Regardless of what she said.
Wasn't rape.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> No, that is not my intention. I am only saying that in the real world, in my experience, there are consequences for choices.


They did not choose to be raped. How you dress does not make rape a consequence. That is an excuse that rapists use to beat down their victims.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> Maybe... You are much more aware of the in and outs of paying for sex than I am.
> 
> Pun intended.


I paid for sex, Kobe paid for sex with a settlement and an apology. 
Is he a rapist?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

elevenpoint said:


> I paid for sex, Kobe paid for sex with a settlement and an apology.
> Is he a rapist?


Again. I don't know.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> They did not choose to be raped. How you dress does not make rape a consequence. That is an excuse that rapists use to beat down their victims.


The gazelle doesn't choose to be eaten by the lion. But the lion will eat, if he gets the chance. The wise gazelle should take note of this.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here ya go. I am going to try to rephrase and restate. One More Time.

My previous comments about clothing are not an excuse for rapists. It really is a side issue, and it may not be applicable to the trial at all.

I did not say that slutty clothing is an excuse for rape.

I did not say that it explains the power rapes of elderly women by horrible men.

I did not say that slutty clothing is “asking for it.”

I am saying that wearing slutty clothing sends a message. ALL clothing sends a message. There are dumb males that haven’t had good parenting, and they will believe the message of the clothing instead of the word, “No.”

In my personal AND professional opinion as a teacher of Speech Communication (which includes nonverbal communication), dressing like a two bit whore sends the message that you are one.

I taught my students that body language and clothing for job interviews sends very specific messages. They recorded videos which affirmed that they understood the concepts. I hope they understood that the concepts cross apply in other situations. 

Sure, in a perfect world, ALL males will understand that clothing is not always an invitation for sexual congress. It’s not a perfect world. LOTS of women dress like sluts, go to school or out on the town and then act surprised when SOME men rise to the bait. (Pun intended)

Humans are complicated. Communication (verbal and nonverbal) is complicated.

This discussion is complicated. It touches each of us differently. Respect for each other should (in a perfect world) include accepting the pain and passion of everyone who has posted.

Peace.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Two bit whores did not consent to rape. What you think is slutty does not mean they
> can use it as an excuse to rape. There is no justification for rape. Every time you say clothes are communication it gives an idiot rapist a stupid defense. You may not mean it to but it does.


I have painfully read this entire thread and have not seen anyone attempt a justification for rape. People with other views have tried to explain how to prove or disprove rape allegations in a court of law. People with other views have tried to explain how the behavior of victims may make it harder or easier to prevent rape or a rape attempt. Certain people just want to claim that an allegation of rape, even if not claimed contemporaneously and even after communication after alleged assaults don't shed doubt on the alleged rapes are meaningless should be discounted just believe are somehow irrational makes me just shudder a bit.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Signals are in your own mind. Unless you ask someone to have sex with you and they say yes it is not allowed to take what you want.
> 
> There are two many ways to interpret your so called signals and you may be wrong. Rape can happen anywhere any time one person over powers another. Teaching them to wear a certain outfit or only go to certain places won't stop all rapes. Rapes happen in our homes, our workplaces, our schools, or public places. Instead teach our children that there is no excuse for rape and nothing they do makes it their fault. That will serve the world better and make them want to report it.


 No one is saying it’s right we are saying that certain things make it more likely than others. 
No one has a right to rob your house or steal your car but you still lock your doors don’t you?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Your posts sure seem to lay blame on the victim s for their choices.


Who else would be responsible for their choices but them?


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Getting back to the original trial at hand, what women do AFTER a rape will determine if their rapist is convicted or not. That's all I'm saying.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

..................It is good strategy by the Rapee's to claim such , because a criminal conviction by a jury during which each victim has 'her' name on the list will be more likely to receive a larger portion from a civil judgement against the estate of the Rapor ! , fordy


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