# Producing Energy for more than just your own Homestead



## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

I've been reading through many of the threads here that talk about solar electric and wind turbines and the fact that, except for certain cases, it's just cheaper to hook up to the grid and forget about alternatives. There seems to be a wide range of opinions and facts that make some cases worthwhile while others are not. For instance, $50k+ to bring in power from the utility may justify a wind generator or solar panels. Also, low usage may make those alternatives worthwhile. Also, cost of getting the alternative energy source seems to be an issue, who has cash laying around or how can afford a loan.

So, let's look at an alternative to alternatives :happy2:

Why not put up a grid tied system (assume you are already attached to the grid) with the intention of supplying yourself and enough for x number of homes? At some point wouldn't the economies of scale come into play and make it worthwhile to do? You'd have free electricity, plus you make extra money. Make it a business venture as opposed to a personal venture. Assuming you have the space to do it of course. Getting investors for a money making venture may prove easier than getting a loan from your local bank. 

Thoughts?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Here's the rain on that parade:

You'll run flat up against the utility company *which is trying to do the same thing.*...supply you and your neighbors.

Right now, my guess is about half (or more) of the utility companies in the US don't want your production. At best, some will let you 'net meter'.....you can offset what you buy with what you produce UP TO the point of zero....they AIN'T paying you for excess.

Some places do. I happen to live in one, but from what I've picked up over the years, it's rare.

For example, we have a pilot (key word) program on TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) that pays us 12 cents OVER retail for ALL our solar production. We use around 900kwhrs/month on average. Retail is 9 cents. So we'd pay about $81 for our 900hrs, and if we generate 900, they pay us $189. (9cents + 12 cents). Then, they subtract the 81 we owe, and we have a net credit of $108. Last year, we got $1100 back. It was less in previous years, but I've added onto my system, trying to build it to the point we match our use with our production.....because I KNOW this program is going away and I don't ever want an electric bill again even when it does. The program is for net metering after the pilot program is gone.

That pilot program is 10years.....we're 4 years into our 10. When it first started, it was the wild, wild west. They threw open the doors, and guess what....they got a bunch of small systems installed on houses ( which is what they were after ) and they got a few people doing what you said....putting up "solar farms" of 50-500kw.....because, yes, the scale of economy was such that even 4-5 years ago when panel prices were $3-4/watt, when you threw in the federal tax credits, they could still make money.

"If you offer it, they will come" ( to paraphrase Field of Dreams ). 

Sooooo.....the Bean Counters at TVA went to the Green Folks at TVA and said ( this is my guess )
"HEY....YOU IDIOTS GOT ANY IDEA WHAT YOU DID ?....(ahahahaaaa)...."this crap is gonna cost us a TON of money"

SO, they tightened up after a couple years.....50kw max size. Then they tightened some more.....10kw max size unless you could prove your use was enough to justify more. Then they tightened up some more. Limit on the maximum amount of new KW they would allow per year. Lowered the rate paid to new participants from 12 cents to 9, and now 6 (I think I heard).

Now you could force them to take your production. I understand there is a federal law that says they have to take it, and pay you 'avoided cost'.....not wholesale ( what the power generators sell power to the local distributors for ), and certainly not retail ( what you pay ). Like I said, our retail is around 9 cents. I found out wholesale is around 6. "Avoided costs", turns out is around 3 cents. That is the cost the TVA would save not having to build new power plants for more capacity.

SO, if you can put up a system, go thru the protracted legal battle ( cause they ain't gonna just roll over and buy your power because the law says they have to  ), and still make money at 3 cents.....you have a plan !

Otherwise, do what I did.....build yourself a personal system that offsets your use, taking advantage of the fact solar panels I paid $4/watt for are now under a buck/watt, and the fact you still have two years left (2015 and 2016 ) of 30% federal tax credit left to help pay for it.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

It is a Federal Law Andy. As long as the sine wave is correct they have to buy any type of renewable energy you produce but they only have to pay wholesale price for it, which is what every the utility company that feeds your local lines pays for it from the producers. 
Our retail rate is 11.6 cents kwhr and the whole sale is 5.5 cents. 
But now they set up two meters, which of course you rent from them.
Let's say you produce the 900 kwhrs you use in a month with hydro-electric, but it is stretched out over the average 730 hrs. in the month.
Say you use 700 kwh. for 12 hours during the day, but you only produce 450 kwhrs during that time and then you don't use all that is produced during the night. 
They will charge you for the 250 kwhrs you used over what you production was at retail, and then you produce the 250 kwhrs. at night when you aren't using it all, they have to buy the 250 kwhrs but only at wholesale so you still end up owing them money. 
I think I said that correctly anyway, LOL. 

Ranger


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Ranger,

I understood ( haven't actually read the law ) that it was 'avoided' cost, not wholesale. Avoided cost being even less than wholesale.

You got a reference to the actual law ?

And my guess is IF they don't want to comply, they can throw up enough "engineering" / "environmental study" / "etc" costs to make the small producer go away so they don't have to fool with them.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

So, maybe we look at this from a different angle? What if I created a company and put up say a 50kw wind generator on my own property and don't directly connect it to my house. That then becomes a different venture. Do the utility companies look at large scale production like that differently from a small scale wind generator or solar system?


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Kevingr said:


> So, maybe we look at this from a different angle? What if I created a company and put up say a 50kw wind generator on my own property and don't directly connect it to my house. That then becomes a different venture. Do the utility companies look at large scale production like that differently from a small scale wind generator or solar system?


I'm pretty sure that in at least some states, probably all, it is illegal to sell electricity without state gov't approval. What it would take to get that approval, I have no idea. But since all the big utilities have had decades to lobby to stack the deck against competition, I'll bet the hurdles are insurmountable on an economic basis on the scale you are discussing. 

For instance, the state probably requires every utility to have in place a disaster preparedness plan. It may cost 10s of 1000s or even more to create an acceptable plan, so unless your utility is selling megawatts worth of product, you can't afford to compete.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'd still sell the electricity to the utility, but essentially my electricity would be free since I'd be selling way more to the utility to distribute. I would assume all these farmers and ranchers that put up wind farms are earning a profit otherwise why do it? Maybe they aren't.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

My guess is those farmers and ranchers are NOT putting up the wind farm...they are leasing ground to a company that does it. That company probably has hundreds of turbines, on multiple locations, and is selling on a megawatt scale. They negotiated with utility companies to buy their power.

Rather than speculate on and on about this, why don't you simply call up your power supplier, and *ASK THEM* how they would deal with you setting up a 50kw wind/solar/whatever generation system and WOULD THEY buy back the power, and if so, for how much. 

That's what you really want to know, RIGHT ?..... and nobody here is going to be able to answer that for you, because as I pointed out in my reply above, the conditions upon which different utility companies accept alternative power varies WIDELY around the country....from those that accept it with open arms, to those that won't even talk to you about it.

I do exactly what you are wanting....I produce enough power (solar), that along with the incentive program my utility company has in place, means I have no bill, plus they send me some money once a year. This year, it was $1100. I currently have a credit of about $250 according to the statement I got the other day, and it will build until I call them next year to cut me another check. 

It was a limited time, pilot program, designed to get solar going on *this particular* utility (TVA). They still have it, but have reduced the incentive considerably, and all of it runs out after 10 years for each individual. From then on, they will only net meter....you can produce all you want, but they will only credit you UP TO the amount of your bill.......no more checks.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

I really think the best solution is an off grid system. You are never going to beat the utility companies at their own game. Just reading these posts makes my head spin; The complexity of the terms, the convoluted schemes, and the government involvement just repel me. I know all of this is unnecessarily complex for a reason, because the whole thing as being manipulated against the average joe and they want to make it difficult for you to figure that out.

From what I've read in other places there are also charges from the utility companies to hook up their system, and of course a professional ($$) must be hired to construct it. When I see complex webs like this I run the other way. Seems simpler and probably in the long run more efficient to hook a system up myself and spend the money on a good battery bank. Pull the plug on the utility company completely and tell the feds what they can do with their phony tax credits.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Twobottom said:


> Seems simpler and probably in the long run more efficient to hook a system up myself and spend the money on a good battery bank. Pull the plug on the utility company completely and tell the feds what they can do with their phony tax credits.


You can do that.....let's get out a napkin and do some figures:

Let's say you want to generate the 'average' home use in the US....that's about 900kwhrs/month, or 30/day. Most places in the US, it will take something on the order of a 10-12kw system to do that....little less in a real sunny location, little more in a less sunny location. Figure $2/watt if you install it yourself for all components. That is $20,000 (or more).

Then a 'good' battery bank is going to run you another $8000. (say 3 strings of 8-L16's....a 48v system with 1000amp/hrs) They will last, say, 7 years before they need replacement.

Then you'll STILL have to have a generator for extended periods of crappy weather.....figure another 2-3 grand for a good, long lasting one.....+ fuel.

So you're into this thing for nearly 30 grand, give or take some, right off the get-go, IF you want to do the national average of grid tied users.

Figure the whole system on a 30 year depreciation basis, at which time all the equipment is shot, and you've replaced the battery bank 3 times in that period. (and nothing else) 

So for 30 years, you've spent (non-inflation indexed) about 55k.... 20k for the equipment, 3kw for a generator, a 4 sets of batteries at 8k each. and not figuring ANY fuel for the generator.

360 months X 900kwhrs/month = 324,000kwhrs over 30 years.

$55,000 / 324,000kwhrs = about 17 cents per kwhr. And if you figure fuel for the generator over 30 years, and even some minimal maintenance, you'd probably hit the low 20 cent figure.

My cost to buy power from the grid is 9 cents.

Given my back-of-the-napkin figuring, can one compete with the grid ?


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> You can do that.....let's get out a napkin and do some figures:
> 
> Let's say you want to generate the 'average' home use in the US....that's about 900kwhrs/month, or 30/day. Most places in the US, it will take something on the order of a 10-12kw system to do that....little less in a real sunny location, little more in a less sunny location. Figure $2/watt if you install it yourself for all components. That is $20,000 (or more).
> 
> ...


Hm I question these figures. With some changes in my appliances and habits I think I can make do with much less. But lets use your figures...last year I spent 2,200 on electric. 2,200 x 30 = 66,000.

So what you are saying is that I can save 11K over thirty years in the worst case scenario??

You also have not considered two things...#1 the guaranteed increase in the cost of electric during those 30 years and #2 advancements in the efficiency and life cycle of the battery banks.

They already have lithium batteries with 20 year battery life and every indication the costs will continue to fall over time.

I think that, even using your figures and assuming a 10-12 kw system ( which is very extreme ) it makes sense to unplug. Cutting energy usage and making due with a 6 kw system, adding in the increase in the cost of energy over the next few decades, and the likely advancements in battery technology/cost paints a much different scenario.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Plus there is that satisfaction and security that you attain from being independent. To me that has a value that is hard to put a price on.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You question my figures ? Do you currently have, or have you REALLY investigated solar power ? You think you can generate 900kwhrs in a battery based, off grid system with less than 10-12kw ? Really ? Do you live in Arizona or Southern California ? 

See, you can question away, but I ACTUALLY HAVE an 11kw system, 6kw of which is battery based, the other 5kw is grid tied only, in East Tennessee ( about an 'average' location for this country ), AND I DON'T PRODUCE 900kwhrs on a year round average....more like 750.

I will agree with the self satisfaction, and ability to have power, in what I think is coming, which a grid down world. It's WHY I have the system I have.

You spent $2,200 on electric power last year. How many kilowatt hours is that ? I used the NATIONAL AVERAGE of around 900. ARE you using that, or more ? What is your price per kwhr, including all fees/taxes/etc. Simply throwing out your annual figure is fairly useless from a standpoint of figuring anything.

You say you can cut your use....Ok, have at it, cut it now. I was simply using 900kwhrs to have SOME basis for figuring.

Yes, I will agree the odds are electric power will increase in cost over the next 30 years ( assuming it's even there at all ), since it clearly has over the last 30, and since the US Buck is clearly being depreciated all the time by the FED.

As to lithium 20 year batteries ? What do they cost ? I have a set of '20 year' rated AGM batteries.....In float mode, not if you cycle them regularly like you WOULD do in an off grid situation. IF one were to buy them new (I did not) on the retail market, my set of 1200 amp/hr batteries runs around $17,000. 

The number of times you cycle a battery, and the depth of discharge, determines the life of a battery. How many times and to what depth can you cycle those lithium batteries ? Do you know, or are you simply talking off the top of your head ?

Will battery technology improve ? Heck, I hope so....right now, THAT is the 'holy grail' of alternative energy. Producing costs have gotten very competitive.....STORAGE costs, not so much. IF they can manage to solve that side of the equation, then, yes, small home systems become practical, assuming you're willing to make the huge investment.


And here is a couple of things YOU haven't figured. What will fuel costs be for your generator in 10 years ? or 20 ?. How much loss of income did you give up by putting a large block of capital into this system rather than some other investment ? Or worse, did you have to borrow and pay interest on that money ?


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

OK I'm going to pull up my electric bill and we can get into this more thoroughly. Yes I have seriously investigated solar power which is why I believe that an offgrid system would be better, though I am open to disagreement. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think so. Right now I have to run a few errands. I'll post again with the figures you mentioned.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

Oklahoma just made it where if you produce electricity the power company can charge you for line upkeep fees on top of the min fees to be hooked up to a grid tie and they will only buy back a wholesale $.07. the only way to make solar work here is to be grid free. I can't do no ac. in ok summer.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I have worked installing big data towers (197 feet tall) for the company that went on to installing wind farms.
From your posts, and even asking on a forum such as this, you are talking about something way out of your league.
The group I worked with are the "entrepreneur's" who have at their disposal millions of bucks to work with. 
Do you have a bank of attorneys to negotiate with the utility's . .???
The hoops and hurdles are staggering . . .Not in the least friendly to us little guys.
The wind farm had to build their own power substation to tie the wind turbines together before tapping into a couple hundred thousand volt transmission lines.

For the head honcho of that company I installed a 10K turbine on a monopole tower. At the time that price tag was around $60,000. With todays steel prices that figure would be much more. The 48v battery bank of 2v batteries was $14,000. . . .His whole system including a 17K generator was pushing $100K.
Today that whole sweet system is mostly used just to irrigate 50 acres of wine grapes ....

Bottom line . . . . . . .Take that money that you would blow into the wind just dealing with the nasty attitude utility's . . and put it into a sweet system for your self.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

TnAndy said:


> Ranger,
> 
> I understood ( haven't actually read the law ) that it was 'avoided' cost, not wholesale. Avoided cost being even less than wholesale.
> 
> ...


I don't have a reference to the law now Andy, and it was about 6 or 8 years ago since I thought that I had learned what I needed to learn, which I did at the time, if I hadn't gotten all screwed up again and had a chance to build the dream machine I still want, but from what you have said, it sounds like the laws have probably been changed by now anyway.

I think I am going to go a completely different route now that what I had in mind to start with. 
I have looked myself out of time for a piece of land with a large enough creek on it to produce enough electricity for our house, so I am looking at it completely bass ackwards now. 
Instead of trying to produce electricity to run the house on, I am going to run 90% +/- a bit from wood and water! 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Jim-mi said:


> I have worked installing big data towers (197 feet tall) for the company that went on to installing wind farms.
> From your posts, and even asking on a forum such as this, you are talking about something way out of your league.
> The group I worked with are the "entrepreneur's" who have at their disposal millions of bucks to work with.
> Do you have a bank of attorneys to negotiate with the utility's . .???
> ...



That's the information I was looking for, from someone who's been there. I was trying to look at this from an investment perspective since many people say that going with a small system isn't economical unless there's some underlying major expense that the utility wants you to pay, or you're doing it for the satisfaction of having your own power for whatever your personal reasons are.

I have contacted the local utility to try and discuss this, I've also contacted several solar and wind companies but I just don't get anywhere with either. I have land, I have investment properties with space to put up solar or wind systems, but getting the right people together seems to be the issue. I know in MN from articles I have read farmers form co-ops and put up large turbines across many acres. I believe Jim has the right answer, I may have the land and some limited resources, but I don't have the millions to make this work.

So if you remove from the equation the personal reasons to have your own power (satisfaction, pending grid failure, environmental, etc etc) and if electricity is cheap now (you're already hooked up) or it's cheap to bring in for new construction, there's no economical reason that makes alternative power viable.

In the interests of full disclosure I like and have alternative forms of energy on my place today and intend to do more. I'd just like to do more and make a valid argument to naysayers that I can make it economical. I'm thinking the economies of scale are the key factors, again, the large wind farms must be making money or why would anyone invest in it.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Kevingr said:


> ...the large wind farms must be making money or why would anyone invest in it.



There are a LOT of companies that don't make money. Most all go away if they keep it up long term.....so it IS possible what you may be seeing is simply that transition period. Loosing money with every breeze, but trying to make it up on volume (Polish Economics  )

I too am often asked "how long to break even", or something to that effect. My response is often "I don't care.....my intent was to have a basic level of power if the grid goes away".....at least for the first 6kw I installed. The last 5kw (grid tie, using Enphase micro inverters) I simply installed for the money, since I had the basic setup in place already. That section will pay itself back in 5-6 years.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> You spent $2,200 on electric power last year. How many kilowatt hours is that ? I used the NATIONAL AVERAGE of around 900. ARE you using that, or more ? What is your price per kwhr, including all fees/taxes/etc. Simply throwing out your annual figure is fairly useless from a standpoint of figuring anything.
> 
> You say you can cut your use....Ok, have at it, cut it now. I was simply using 900kwhrs to have SOME basis for figuring.


OK I pulled up my bill sorry for the delay. It seems I average about 450 KWH per month on low months but use seems to spike at odd months, IDK why because I rarely use aircondition and I heat with wood. Still I've never in any month ( this year ) come close to 900KWH. The highest month was 780, no idea why.The price fluctuates between .09cents per and .11cents per...for "supply" and about another .07 cents for "delivery, services and tax". So I'm paying about 17 cents per KWH when all is said and done. This year I seem to be using less than last year.... (might be the new wood stove is bigger so we never used the space heater.)

This is with a big monster of a fridge that I got free, a 54" tv and all regular appliances...nothing is "low energy" or star rated. We also run a large chest freezer year round. I think with some improvements and changes in habit we could get it down to 250-300KWH per month. Is that not possible on a 6KW system??

I think at the time I was pricing it all out ( a couple of months ago ) I figured the cost to do it myself would be something like 12K or less.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

You know now that I'm looking through all my statements I see I only spent about 1,250 dollars last year for electric. Not sure where I got the 2,200 number I might have counted some months that carried over onto the next bill twice. OK this puts a better spin on things but I still think its worth putting in an off grid system.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

My parents are on the grid but put in a huge solar system. They sell the excess to the power company.

They figured the return from that investment was better than having the $ sit in the bank.

They have a windmill for their water pump.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Twobottom said:


> I think with some improvements and changes in habit we could get it down to 250-300KWH per month. Is that not possible on a 6KW system??


Yes it is.

But when you were questioning my figures above, we had NO IDEA what your kwhr use was, and I was using the national average of 900 to use as an EXAMPLE. And THAT is why I said 10-12kw system.

Sometimes this is like trying to give a haircut over the phone. :bash:


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2014)

Want to know how solar & wind farms survives ? Government subsidies .


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

WV Hillbilly said:


> Want to know how solar & wind farms survives ? Government subsidies .


That's true with a lot of companies. Farmers get subsidies, food would be a lot higher without them, but our taxes would probably be lower without them. Many companies get tax rebates/forgiveness to build a new building and expand at the expense of other tax payers. Roads and other infrastructure is built to support a new business moving in promising more or new jobs at the expense of local tax payers. Sports teams get new stadiums on the backs of local tax payers which is crazy, but supposedly it brings more money into the local community. Public transportation wouldn't be as cheap as it is with tax payer funding.

So, bottom line many businesses get subsidies one way or another, alternative energy is no different, but people seem to focus on it more.


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## supernovae (Jul 14, 2014)

WV Hillbilly said:


> Want to know how solar & wind farms survives ? Government subsidies .


Oil subsidies are larger than wind/solar. Over a 6 year period in 2002 through 2008 during the "green energy boon" oil subsidies were 72billion while green energy (being rather broad in scope) was 29 billion.

Wind farms in Texas actually produce so much excess capacity the largest investments are in transmission to try and export it. 

Lets be real, the only reason anything "Survives" is because society deems it worth spending money on and nothing is independent and self sufficient on the scale of supporting 300 million Americans or 9 billion people across the globe.

green jobs are jobs, oil jobs are jobs.. i'd much rather be building that new battery plant, new technology transmission & storage capacity and efficiency credits than fracking the farms and water supplies across the country even if that means subsidizing that growth.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

supernovae said:


> Oil subsidies are larger than wind/solar. Over a 6 year period in 2002 through 2008 during the "green energy boon" oil subsidies were 72billion while green energy (being rather broad in scope) was 29 billion.
> 
> Wind farms in Texas actually produce so much excess capacity the largest investments are in transmission to try and export it.
> 
> ...


the oil subsidies are a big lie. Yes, there are regs in place that allow oil companies to pay less than the nominal rate of a combined fed and state average of 39% on corp profits, but Exxon paid $31B in taxes last year. 

I'm way pro solar, but not pro gov't intervention. And I'm not pro lying about an entire industry to justify what I want from the gov't. I am also pro capitalism and letting market forces, rather than gov't determine what survives.


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## supernovae (Jul 14, 2014)

DEKE01 said:


> the oil subsidies are a big lie. Yes, there are regs in place that allow oil companies to pay less than the nominal rate of a combined fed and state average of 39% on corp profits, but Exxon paid $31B in taxes last year.


Oil subsidies aren't a big lie at all, a subsidy is a subsidy. Texas is spending billions subsidizing oil jobs, then subsidizing oil cleanup then subsidizing abandoned well dismantling then pushing for federal Superfund dollars to help.. all the meanwhile many of our port waters are downright poisonous because we don't want to face the reality of what our fossil fuel system really costs because we're too busy blaming green energy.




> I'm way pro solar, but not pro gov't intervention. And I'm not pro lying about an entire industry to justify what I want from the gov't. I am also pro capitalism and letting market forces, rather than gov't determine what survives.


In a capitalistic society it very well makes sense to subsidize something if it means the survival of said society. When cities/states/federal governments do their net benefit analysis and equilliberium studies they can see that it may be cheaper to subsidize certain industries in lieu of massive capital appropriations for other or legacy systems. In california, pollution is a huge problem, you can't reduce that by building more fossil fuel based generation systems so if you invest in green energies, you set the transformation for a new net benefit. Obviously, there is no such thing as "pro capitalism" because there is no purity thereof, the "no true scotsman" philosophy prevails across every belief - from religions to economies and to me, its the cop out of cop outs.

There is absolutely no proof that the entire industry depends on government subsidies nor is there no proof that any industry doesn't rely on subsidies. (taxes to pay for roads, taxes to pay for rail, taxes to pay for airports.. yaddy yadda yadda) The renewable industry brings in an estimated 500 billion in revenue, if its subsidy is ~29 billion, that's a wise investment if you ask me... a ~5% cost factor for a 500 billion and growing industry? Heck of a return and last i checked, i can go enter that business and get a piece of that pie as a business person or reap the benefits by generating on my own. Right now, i just own an EV, i love my volt. It had subsidies when first owner bought it, but i got it used off lease. put 29k ev miles on it and 4k gas miles so far saving 10 tons of co2 emissions.. is that worth the subsidy there? not sure.. but over 10 years i plan on keeping the car thats over 100 tons of CO2 saved... whats the cost of tons of co2? i've seen 10 to 30 bucks a ton for sequestering costs. it may not break even purely on an individual basis but if you have 50,000 evs now removing 5 million tons of co2 over their term, then the cost/benefit becomes even greater and the cool thing is, car prices have come down, subsidies have come down and the technology has increased in range and performance. That's cool. (btw, my numbers are wayyy conservative.. like absolute worst conversion and including the fact that your generation may be coal generated.. if you opt in for wind generation or natural gas then the co2 saved goes up annually by a factor of 5-10x)

heck, if "Free markets" really worked in a pure form, why of all things would oil still not be in positive equilibrium?

obviously some subsidies are scams of scams, nothing is perfect, me speaking on behalf of the green energy system doesn't mean i believe its perfect.

not to mention i've only needed a few hundred gallons of oil.. wish so much turmoil in the middle east and the high cost of fracking at home, by the time you figure in national security green energy is infinitely less burdensome to society

Solar/wind/green at home is also one of the best ways to express freedom and independence!


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

supernovae said:


> In a capitalistic society it very well makes sense to subsidize something if it means the survival of said society.


Somebody must be getting subsidies for their hyperbole machine. 

I'm putting my money where my mouth is, building a net zero house. I'm also investing in the solar industry. here's something I'm considering.
Pretty cool stuff.

http://http://www.altaerosenergies.com/pressrelease_2014_03.html


You oil subsidies is all obfuscation. You have one standard of measure for the oil industry and something else for solar. come back to me when you have honest numbers.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

DEKE01 said:


> http://http://www.altaerosenergies.com/pressrelease_2014_03.html
> 
> 
> You oil subsidies is all obfuscation.


 
That's pretty cool, I hadn't heard of that before.

And, am I the only one that had to google "obfuscation"? :teehee:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I use the word often . . . especially when talking about the num-nuts in Washington.


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## supernovae (Jul 14, 2014)

DEKE01 said:


> You oil subsidies is all obfuscation. You have one standard of measure for the oil industry and something else for solar. come back to me when you have honest numbers.


Why would this even matter? There is no universal standard for any industry. Some get abatements, some get deferments, some get refunds, some get grants, some get reductions, some get penalties, some get notes, some get bonds, some get land grants, some get investments.. I see this with hospitals, cities, roads, oil/energy company, green companies, IT companies, companies going public, companies going private, startups.. everyone is competing for dollars, value and hopefully increasing revenues.

That's awesome though you're going great with your green buildup. I too am happy and i do believe because of incentives i can now afford to go solar myself, as "largely" its gone from $12.00/watt installed to $5.00/watt installed - and this is before rebates and i'm not sure that would have happened had the industry been ignored and not incentivised.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

supernovae said:


> Why would this even matter?


With solar, the gov't is giving cash to money losing companies. With oil companies, you are counting as subsidies the costs of cleaning the harbor. Big difference. The then even if I accept your number on subsidies, when industry size if factored in, oil is hugely less by percentage.


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