# Crossbreeding Choosing Sire and Dam



## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

Hello, this is my first posting in this forum. I have a couple of questions about crossbreeding.

1) For the Angus x Hereford, which breed is normally used as the sire, and why?

2) Is it problematic to use a standard sized sire on smaller size dam? For example, could a Hereford bull be used on Lowline cows, or Hereford bull with Dexter cows, or an Angus bull with Dexter cows?


Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Tony I don`t think it would matter which cross you would use either way. I have crossed both, and are a very good cross, I will tell you black calves bring more than white face calves. I would also never cross a full size bull with a lowline cow, way to many things could go wrong. The other way around would not be as bad, but then your messing with not keeping your cattle somewhat pure. > Thanks Marc


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

My dad did Angus x Hereford crosses from the time I was a teenager until he retired. He always used Hereford cows ... bigger cows, bigger frame ... with Angus bulls. The Angus bulls had a smaller head, being naturally polled, which makes for fewer calving problems. He kept one Hereford bull to breed to his biggest Hereford cows to have straight Hereford heifers to keep as replacements. Otherwise, he bred everything to Angus bulls.

Herefords tend to be bigger boned and just simply bigger animals than Angus ... at least the ones we had were and by crossing on Angus bulls we avoided almost all of the calving problems we had when we were breeding straight Herefords. I would think that by breeding Angus cows, which tend to be a little smaller framed, to the bigger Hereford bulls, especially horned bulls with more massive heads, you would tend to get more calving problems.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

tonyb said:


> Hello, this is my first posting in this forum. I have a couple of questions about crossbreeding.
> 
> 1) For the Angus x Hereford, which breed is normally used as the sire, and why?
> 
> ...


I don't think it makes a lot of difference. Generally speaking, I think Hereford cows are cheaper to buy than Angus cows. And there are a lot more Angus bulls available than polled Hereford bulls...._*at least in my area*._

And, no, I wouldn't use a full sized Hereford or Angus bull on Dexter cows. If you do, be sure they're mature cows and least watch the bull's BW and CE EPDs.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

Done both ways in my day and it seemed we had a lot less calving difficulties using angus bulls on hereford cows. Probably for the reasons SFM IN KY gives above. I would never use a full size breed of bull on Dexter or lowlines. Thats just asking for trouble


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

ksfarmer said:


> I would never use a full size breed of bull on Dexter or lowlines. Thats just asking for trouble


Ah, thank you for saying that, ksfarmer! :clap:


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## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks for all the info everyone. We have some acreage and are trying to generate a little income on the side. Since both my wife and I work full time, we thought working through the commodity/auction market would be more do-able than direct sales.

We are growing into this venture slowly, so we are only allocating a few acres to start. The rest is in soybeans. Smaller cows and big bulls would have meant more cow/calf pairs, but still given us calf size required to be sold at auction. That was the theory anyway. I kind of thought calving issues would be a problem, which everyone has basically just confirmed. 

We have a Dexter now -- I like her, but we can't base an entire herd on Dexters due to the penalty at the sale barn. We basically got her to learn stockmanship skills, develop a rotational grazing/watering system, learn what types of infrastructure works and doesn't work, and provide calves for the freezer (we wanted smaller carcass sizes just for ourselves).

Anyway, thanks again.


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

While you may not want cows as small as a Dexter, you do not need to have huge cows to get acceptable calves for sale

Growth rate in the calves is more improtant than having big cows and calves to start.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

greengrow said:


> While you may not want cows as small as a Dexter, you do not need to have huge cows to get acceptable calves for sale
> 
> Growth rate in the calves is more improtant than having big cows and calves to start.


I agree with you,except you cannot overlook breed potential. There are small bloodlines of Angus and hereford and there are large ones, but you are still limited by the breed potential. Its all in the genes. I crossed hereford with gelbvieh for years, made a great cross, bull selection for easy calving gave me smaller calves with great growth potential. The gelbvieh cross cows tended to be large (1400 lbs) and ate accordingly tho. Best for me was hereford cows bred to the gelbvieh bull, rather than the other way around.


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## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

Trying to choose breeds to cross gives me a headache. Without actual experience, all a novice can do is read as much as possible, and then go out and get some experience.

My interest is in grass-fed beef. I don't want to start any flame wars, since I really don't have anything against corn fed beef or feedlots, but I personally am a bit fascinated with the grass-fed methodology.

My gut tells me to stick with Angus x Hereford because its a well established and well accepted crossbreed. But, I've read that other breeds, such as Black Galloway (not Belted) and Red Devon are very good on grass. So, then I ask myself, what about Angus x Galloway for example, or a Devon cross?

We're in Michigan, so the climate needs to be considered with breed selection too. Angus and Hereford are both popular in Michigan. And Galloway are reputed to be excellent cold weather cattle - very popular in Wisconsin I think.... 

Good grief, I guess this post illustrates how easily beginners can get stuck chasing their own tails. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion so far. Any additional input would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

There are lots of BWF bred around here. The buyers like them in large uniform groups. Under "Angus" meat rules, they qualify as Angus with predominantly black hide and no dairy characteristics.

The buyers like to purchase just the right number to fill a cattle trailer.

The ranchers here use Hereford cows because the range Herefords can really take care of themselves and their calves and they can be ranged with very little care. In fact, I suspect that nobody checks in on them until round-up time.

Then the ranchers buy some pretty good Angus bulls with good genetics and turn them out with the cows.

Angus aren't really good range cattle, but I don't think they are left out there after breeding season. They also aren't used after they get to full size.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

Go with your gut feeling and get some Angus, Hereford, or some crosses.

If Angus and Herefords are popular and common locally, there is usually a good reason, and there is probably no real advantage to trying Galloway or Red Devon crosses just to be different.

Keep it relatively simple when you are beginning, and once you get some experience it will be easier to figure out if crossing with other breeds of cattle will work for you and your cattle.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

tonyb said:


> Thanks for all the info everyone. We have some acreage and are trying to generate a little income on the side. Since both my wife and I work full time, we thought working through the commodity/auction market would be more do-able than direct sales.


Well, I don't know how much time you have exactly, but it's not that hard to sell beef direct to the consumer. You're not going to be the butcher, you'll just haul it to the butcher for them. 

1. Butcher one for yourselves. 
2. If it's good, invite your friends over for dinner.
3. ??
4. Profit.


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