# buck walking on knees



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I neglected the hooves of my 250 lb. buck. He started walking on front knees. I started trimming his hooves slowly each week until now they look good. He is still on knees alot. Other than this, he appears healthy...no parasites, no fever and a good appetite.

I thought it might be low sellenium; so I gave him 6cc of Bo-se in muscle about 4 months ago; another 6cc just 4 weeks ago. Still, he is on his knees so much that they look swollen. [This morning I washed them good and coated them with Neosporin (first aid antibiotic/pain relieving ointment).]

Vets here admittedly know nothing about goats and the one vet I trust to help me will not come out. (I have no way of getting this size goat to the vet.)

Can anyone help me?


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## Al. Countryboy (Oct 2, 2004)

Could this be CAE? Feeding too much grain will make hoves grow really fast. My bucks are big and a little hard to handle. Both are almost three and have never had their hoves trimed and their feet are good. Boy am I glad. They have pleanty to eat in the pasture and get only a small amount of grain. My girls on the other hand, need trimming on a fairly regular basis.  I feel that this is caused from them getting more grain. Hope things get better for you and your buck.


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## oberhaslikid (May 13, 2002)

Check your copper in his diet.Go to www.saanendoah.com/goatss.html
go to health problems can be nutritionaly caused
go down the page to hoof problems.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

It's a 6$ test plus the cost of pulling blood and shipping to find out it's CAE. In fact a seasoned breeder who has dealt with CAE before can likely give you a yes or no, just by looking at the buck. There are usually swollen hocks that go along with the swelling of the knees. It's also a thickening of the pads and a swelling of the knee fat pad to the inside.

If this was a copper defficiency probelm, you would be having herdwide sypmtoms, bald tail tips, longer than normal hair on your nubians with a redtinged bad perm look to it, thickened amniotic sacks to the point that you have kids who don't get out of sacks and are born dead.

Now true founder, and a buck no matter how much you trim isn't getting up on his feet without pain meds, you could give him banamine, then see if he will stand, it would only be a temporary fix for a diagnosis.

Honestly a buck who is walking on his knees, be it founder, be it CAE or mycoplasma should be put down. No way he can have any quality of life being down in the mud, especially with winter here. He also can't breed, and if he is CAE positive or mycoplasma positive do you want him breeding the herd?

As bucks get older they do graze on their knees more, but the knees do not get swollen. Vicki


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thank you all for helping.

This buck came from a totally CAE free herd; and my small herd has been CAE free for over 5 years. How would CAE enter my herd? (I do intend on getting a CAE test to make sure.) What are "hocks"? My "parts of the dairy goat" do not show this as a part.

As for copper, none of the symptoms mentioned by Vicki are seen in any of the goats, including Roman (this buck).

I had been feeding my bucks grain along with the does. Guess I will cut back some, maybe alot, as his hooves do seem to grow very fast. (The winter months were very difficult in which to trim buck hooves because of the one buck who let me know he was not happy being away from my son. However, my son gave that buck to a friend and the bucks I have now are as tame as puppy dogs.) 

Roman has been grazing with the herd (albeit more on his knees or laying down); and has bred all of my 5 does this year. It is obvious to me he is uncomfortable walking on his front hooves, even though they look good.

Roman is out of GCH Chateau-Briant's Gayleen (bred AI to GCH Kismet Marvin Smooth Operator); so, I do not want to put him down. However, I care deeply about him and if his condition does not improve, I will. I did keep one of his son's this year out of my Lady Alginon; and he is already very large, very gentle and has the wavy hair like his dam. I can breed this buck (Sir Alginon) to all my does except one (Midnight) because I lost his mother this past spring to milk fever. (She had given birth to 4 kids and I did not understand what was happening until it was too late.)

I appreciate all the help here. Thank you all very much; and I will let you know what the outcome is.


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

Well if this is indeed lamititis (caused from founder) overgrown hooves etc. and were my goat I would be giving him Vit C, Biotin, which you can get for horses and helped me with a goat I foundered. trim hooves every few days just little bits give him Banamine or an asprin for pain. MSM and dmso also help. Feed him grass hay and alfalfa pellets good loose goat minerals and only the grain when breeding and after to recondition him after the strenous work  I also would get him up and walk if at all possible every day so he doesn't loose muscles being down. I would also pad his knees so as not to cause further damage the hocks are just above the foot I believe. (ankles) but won't swear to it.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

The hock is the middle hind leg joint -- the "point" of the hind leg if you will.
The ankle joint is the pastern, the joint above the hock is the stifle. (same terminology as a horse)

Have you had this buck collected? If he were mine, and not already collected, I would probably try to have him done at all possible (before he gets worse) if he is that valuable to your breeding program. I had my young Waiilatpu buckling collected this year, even though we only managed 28 straws from him, at least if he drops dead I have him in the tank.

There have been plenty of breeders burned by thinking they had a completely CAE free herd, and then presto-chango, someone turns up positive. Where does it come from? Who knows. Would be nice to see some more research being done in that area.


Tracy


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

The hock? I am hearing it is, "...The hock is the middle hind leg joint -- the "point" of the hind leg..." (Where is this?) and "...the hocks are just above the foot I believe. (ankles)..." I feel real dense as I still don't understand where the "hock" is.

Roman does walk some. He will walk out to the pasture, get on his knees and graze. He was up to chase and breed all 5 does.

I do not know how to pad his knees in a way that will stay. I tried placing padding on them and wrapping it on with tape, making sure the tape is not so tight as to cut off circulation. It was off in notime.

I did trim his hooves a little weekly until they are looking pretty good now.

What kind of aspirin? Bayer? One a day?

I have never "collected" sperm from a buck; have no means of doing so and no container to keep it in. (I have a very small goat herd...5 does and 2 bucks...only using such for our own food. Sometimes I sell the babies; but mostly castrate baby buck and use all the kids for our winter's meat.)

"Well if this is indeed lamititis (caused from founder) overgrown hooves etc. and were my goat I would be giving him Vit C, Biotin, which you can get for horses and helped me with a goat I foundered. trim hooves every few days just little bits give him Banamine or an asprin for pain. MSM and dmso also help. Feed him grass hay and alfalfa pellets good loose goat minerals..."

Vit C "injections"? or can I use the Vit C "crystals" (1/2 tsp = 2000mg) my son takes?

"Biotin"??? Do I get this from a vet?

"MSM"??? What is this?

"dmso"? What is this; where do I get it; and how do I use it?

He has loose minerals he can eat anytime (in container inside wall along with baking soda); has constant access to high quality orchard grass (served inside a trough in the barn) and matua grass in the pasture; also I feed rabbit pellets daily to all goats.

I appreciate all the help here. I will search for these.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

Okay, I stole this right off of this goat 4-H page, so all credit to them. 
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~pazzani/4H/DairyGoats.html










You can see the hock -- it is number 31. Hope this helps.

Tracy


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

That picture helped alot. Thank you. Roman's hocks are not...not...swollen.


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

DUH I knew where the hocks were but all the time was thinking , oopps guess I wasn't thinking. Thanks Tracy!!


> Vit C "injections"? or can I use the Vit C "crystals" (1/2 tsp = 2000mg) my son takes? Yes or horse crumbles
> 
> "Biotin"??? Do I get this from a vet?  feed store also
> 
> ...


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

OK, I am going to try the following:

1. Vit C "crystals" (1/2 tsp = 2,000 mg) : Will give 1/2 tsp 2 times first day and only once a day for 5 days. (Why 5 days? I have no clue.)

2. Use Biotin : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

3. Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

4. DMSO : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

5. Banamine : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

I will pick all these up and then return to this forum to find out how to use them. Thank you all very much.


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

Vit C "crystals" (1/2 tsp = 2,000 mg) : Will give 1/2 tsp 2 times first day and only once a day for 5 days. (Why 5 days? I have no clue.) 

I would only use that amount once a day
I give Vit C to all my goats mostly as a preventative and up the dose if one gets snotty noses or something

2. Use Biotin : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

I have Cooper's Best Biotin crumbles 2.5lb container 1/2 to 1oz per day, 10z scoop included I used 1oz twice a day 

3. Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me. 

my MSM is made by Gateway Products says to give 1 scoop (provided) = 10,000mg I used 1 scoop daily.

4. DMSO : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

this is a strong carrier for other remedies but can be used alone. In other words I use this on myself for arthritis, area must be clean as will carry any other impuritives into your skin. I use things like eucalyptus oil, peppermint oil etc to ease pain. I suggest you read up abt this on the net so you understand how it works. 

5. Banamine : I have no idea how to use this and hoping you tell me.

believe this is Vet RX only so go by what he tells you for the weight of your goat. This is a pain killer.
I am not a VET so anything said here is just what I use on one of my goats that I foundered and had problems with her hooves I also soaked and trimmed her hooves every two days for aprox 2wks and then weekly after that. I cut back on her feed protein also.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

Sondra Peterson said:


> Vit C "crystals" (1/2 tsp = 2,000 mg) : Will give 1/2 tsp 2 times first day and only once a day for 5 days. (Why 5 days? I have no clue.)
> 
> I would only use that amount once a day
> I give Vit C to all my goats mostly as a preventative and up the dose if one gets snotty noses or something
> ...


i can't be much help here, but a vet told me last year that banamine is the vet version of tylenol. shouldn't be too hard to figure out a dosage. msm is also supposed to help reduce the pain in swollen, arthritic joints, and is often sold (for humans) in combo with glucosamine.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

You are all so sweet to help me. New Year's Day caught me; so I have to wait until Monday to get the rest of this stuff. But I will do so and follow instructions of all (friends here, vet and what is on label).

Thank you all so much for your attention to this matter.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Have not been able to get a vet to come out to take blood samples (double checking for CAE); nor have I been able to get a vet to give me a Rx for banamine. (Vet will if I bring my 250+ buck into his office, which I have no way of doing.)

Saw Roman grazing and walking around good in pasture last few days; also pestering a doe about to kid while keeping my little buck (Sir Alginon) away from that doe......all this done correctly on all four feet. (He did not appear to limp at all during this time; however, when he is not focused on something in particular, he still favors his front legs.) I still see him on his knees more than I would like to.

I separat Roman from the does during grain time, giving Roman only Rabbit pellets (alfalfa). His hooves look 90% good; but, not perfect as yet. I continue to wash his knees with "Udder Wash" (some iodine in it), keeping very warm water compresses on them for awhile. Then coat them with the Neosporin.

Will keep all aprised as to how he does. My gratitude is yours, dear friends.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

What's the calcium and phos ration on the rabbit pellets? How much are they per hundred compared to plain alfalfa pellets? You may be looking at chornic founder if he is getting alot of these, since they are grain pellets with alfalfa meal.

If you read old posts on here we all contemplated the rabbit pellet idea before moving to the alfalfa pellets, the nutritionist up at the mill in Bryan was the one who pointed out that although green alfalfa meal was not the main ingredient in rabbit pellets. So if you are graining him on top of these pellets, you are not only risking urinary calculi because of the added phos. but founder in these ground grains. Vicki


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

Vicki is right!! Nope I have rabbits and no way am I feeding rabbit pellets to the goats especially a buck. besides which the cost is prohibative in comparison to alfalfa pellets. He would be better off with no pellets what so ever and just grass hay. Oh and by the way I no longer by rabbit feed since I mix my own feed the rabbits get goat feed + alfalfa pellets.


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## MoBarger (Mar 5, 2003)

Hi -- if he is walking on his front knees it would be his knees that are swollen, not his hocks. Not sure how personable he is but can you feel down his front legs and see how his knees are?
Also CAE goats get a sore between their front legs under the chest sometimes.
Double check his feet too, even though they are trimmed they could have hoof rot or hoof scald. Here in the NE it has been so damp I am sure I will be smelling it any day.


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## Ark (Oct 5, 2004)

*Wow! This is just such a great informative thread!
Thanks to all who take the time to answer questions.  * 

Can someone give me a specific brand name on the best *minerals * to buy that have enough copper in them? I live in the Texas Hill Country and I guess my minerals that I bought don't have enough copper, because I've got some bald tail tips and "bad perms". LOL Well, the goats do, not me.  

Also, why would a goat who was for years the same color reddish brown as her twin sister, be turning colors? She is getting lots of grayish hairs and also her reddish color is dulling - no longer so rich and pretty. She is not old. Only 4. Her sister looks fine and they eat the same food. 

Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!
Rachel


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I love the Tech Master Complete minerals at Tractor Supply, not only do they contain 2000 ppm of copper but kelp, yeast and probiotics also. But any good loose cattle or horse mineral that has more than 1000 ppm of copper in them will do you, I used Purina's loose beef cattle minerals for years, I did add kelp to them, and also fed yeast to the high producing does when first in milk, what a pleasure to have this all now in one bag! Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

MoBarger said:


> Also CAE goats get a sore between their front legs under the chest sometimes.


i didn't know that. almost freaks me out.  both my nubians are having a spot on their chest. breeder said they were bottle raised with pasteurized milk. 
why do they get a sore spot in this place? my girls are not laying around or have swollen knockels. 
susanne


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## MoBarger (Mar 5, 2003)

I have no idea susanne! It is one thing (of many) I was told to look for.
For minerals I use SweetLix for meat goats. My TST does not carry bluebonnet no matter how much I beg.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, I checked the little info I could see on the rabbit pellets and it stated a 1.5% calcium with .5% phosphorus. I will look for the "Tech Master Complete" first chance I get to go to Tractor Supply.

I found a vet willing to come out and will have entire herd (total 6) tested for CAE next week.

Obtained the MSM and Biotin and used on about a cup of his favorite grain with the Vitamin C crystals. Will continue this for awhile. Also, gave him 2.5cc under skin of "Flunixamine" (Vet stated they had stopped making Banamine; but, this was the same thing.). Will not give anymore of this until a good 36 hrs have gone by.

Continuing to wash his knees with a very warm mixture of Udder Wash and water, then applying the DMSO. A few seconds later applying the Neosporine to Roman's front legs (the knees).

Checked his chest for knots and found none; however, there has been a knot about the size of a large marble on his left cheek near back of mouth. Been watching this for several months and it seems to be very, very slowly getting larger. Have no idea what this is and the hair looks healthy as does the skin where it is. Thought it might be an abscess; but not sure.

Saw him chasing the young buck out of the barn again today; also grazing on his feet more than usual.


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

Sounds like he maybe making progress with the legs 
As for the knot Have the vet check his teeth when he is out as this could be the cause and is an abcess.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I will. Thanks Sondra


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Just an update:

I was in barn nearly 2 hrs this morning; and Roman was not on his knees once during this entire time. Seems more active too.


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## Ark (Oct 5, 2004)

Tech Master Complete - ok! 
Thankyou!
I will be checking the old bag of cattle minerals that I have to see what the copper content is, then getting the TSC stuff next time I go to town.
I hope that is something that they keep in stock! 
Thankyou Vicki!

Rachel


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