# The Vices we Own



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Over on the self destruction thread a lady mentioned the likelihood that we might have other vices as damaging as drugs and alcohol. That put me in mind of something I'd read a long time ago--a list of the really bad vices.
I thought through the morning hours and came up with pride, envy, gluttony, greed, and sloth. I mentioned this to Barb, saying I could only come up with five--she told me I'd left out my two favorites, wrath and lust. 

Now; since we've a member who lists porn as right up there with dope and whiskey, how about a list of the vices of man? Anyone have any others that come to mind?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Like 10 chain links hanging off a high cliff, and you're holding on for dear life.....
It only takes 1 link breaking to send you to your death, and it doesn't matter which one.
The 7 deadly sins encompass all individual sins of man.
In no particular order, as a sin is a sin.

And yes, porn is equal or more damaging than booze and drugs.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2014)

When I see someone careening madly down the road in a ton of steel, all whacked out from the mental, physical, and emotional damage of carrying 150 pounds of extra weight, I wonder, do they have no respect for others? What if their giant heart explodes, causing them to crash into a crowd of innocent bystanders, while taking that last "Big Gulp"?

What if a surgeon, while doing an open heart surgery, slips because he's day-trading with that $25,000 he just made for the open heart surgery he did 20 minutes ago, and cuts off an appendage or something? Is his having 8 fingers instead of 9 going to affect his ability to overcharge? 

It's a dangerous place out there. I need to take a couple hits of Zofran just to read HT anymore, much less the rest of the internet. (Don't bother looking it up, it's a prescription anti-nausea medication.) (God, I love parentheses)


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Interesting that one would think addiction to porn is not as bad as drugs and drink. With the internet and porn so easily avaliable to all, I would say as an addiction it is on it's way to breaking up relationships just as much as the other addictions. Some will say it does no harm but they are truly fooling themselves. I have known people that will sit for hours and hours looking at porn at the expense of their families.

I see no reason to list our faults after all doesn't everyone's dirty bloomers show on here at some time or another and we all draw our own conculsions


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

I will own my vices, too much coffee and... well, I eat plenty. Not a glutton, but a very appreciative chowhound.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, Porn would be lust, no? And "whacked out from mental, physical and emotional damage of carrying 150 pounds of extra weight" might be gluttony.

Now, let's take porn first. Do you really believe that porn costs this society as much as the damage done by drunks and drug addicts? Never heard of a porn addict (and I suppose there are some) who broke into a home and stole a computer to feed his porn habit. Porn addicts rob pharmacies, mug people on the street? I suppose they can ruin relationships, but I doubt there are nearly so many of them as there are drunks.

Overweight; the news lately claims most of us are overweight--where is the breaking point? How much overweight before you cost society money, steal from banks, run over people on the sidewalk? 

Of the two, I suspect that overweight people cost society more (in medical bills) than porn addicts cost, though I've heard that porn can destroy relationships. I've also heard that some people watch porn on TV together. 

All in all, we've not even scratched the surface of the vices possible. Perhaps others will fill in the blanks.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

Breathing the air and drinking the water in most places of the world is bad for you too, still we drink water and breathe the air. Porn is a stimulant just as the booze, and drugs have their own effects. One is not worse nor better than the others. If used in moderation all the above can be useful in a couples relationship. As in erotica, wine, and Viagra.

Not suggesting the porn industry is a good thing, or the cocaine trade is good, or kids drinking is good. But everything in moderation.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Yup. I got mine,


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

I heard a good saying recently but I won't share it because Shrek in his wisdom may say it is a personal attack but believe me in this case it applies. Perhaps Ox is getting bored and doing the pot stirring as Bill use to do.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I'm not starting any new ones.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Coffee, work, coffee, work, coffee and more work. Yep, pretty much nails it, oh and good good food, not your cheap fast good but good exotic food.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

FarmboyBill said:


> Yup. I got mine,


Your porn?


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Why do people consider coffee a "vice?"

http://www.myrecipes.com/healthy-di...ffee-10000001927541/?xid=cnn-mr-coffee-100809

Just try and pry my cup out of my hands... just try.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Rhonda, did I chop too close to the cotton?


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Raeven said:


> Why do people consider coffee a "vice?"
> 
> http://www.myrecipes.com/healthy-di...ffee-10000001927541/?xid=cnn-mr-coffee-100809
> 
> Just try and pry my cup out of my hands... just try.


Ummm, maybe the last line answers the first?? Lol


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Here is another vice... I thought it was kinda cute.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I love it, Cindilu. I had friend in high school named Plant it Janet. Do you grow, was a common conversation starter in the west coast sticks.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Rhonda, did I chop too close to the cotton?



What are you talking about?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Same as "Did I touch a nerve?"


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> Well, Porn would be lust, no? And "whacked out from mental, physical and emotional damage of carrying 150 pounds of extra weight" might be gluttony.
> 
> Now, let's take porn first. Do you really believe that porn costs this society as much as the damage done by drunks and drug addicts? Never heard of a porn addict (and I suppose there are some) who broke into a home and stole a computer to feed his porn habit. Porn addicts rob pharmacies, mug people on the street? I suppose they can ruin relationships, but I doubt there are nearly so many of them as there are drunks.
> 
> ...





Oxankle said:


> Same as "Did I touch a nerve?"


Wasn't that your intention?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Laura; a simple comment concerning an article in the paper. The conversation grew out of that. I had no idea that there were so many here whose lives were built over shaky ground. After seeing how many people were drugged or on sauce I thought I'd ask what other vices were out there. So far lust and gluttony are about the only ones mentioned. 

There is plenty of room for additions. We've not even touched greed, envy and the rest of the lot.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> Laura; a simple comment concerning an article in the paper. The conversation grew out of that. I had no idea that there were so many here whose *lives were built over shaky ground. After seeing how many people were drugged or on sauce *I thought I'd ask what other vices were out there. So far lust and gluttony are about the only ones mentioned.
> 
> There is plenty of room for additions. We've not even touched greed, envy and the rest of the lot.


You are so blessed that your life is so solid that it is a shock to you that so many are not as blessed as you.

It's unfortunate, when those who do have struggles, share their struggles not for the lime lite or the pity, but to be an encourager...helper for others who suffer silently........it is so unfortunate when the merciless chirp, name call, degrade, dismiss and dehumanize.

Sharing experiences, personal demons, hopes, fears....those are deep human emotions that are sometimes delicate....and to have those who are perfect, flawless, and super amazing to 'pick up a stick and poke'......

Merciless. Among other, unmentionables.

Talking about struggles and demons for the purpose of helping others is a good thing. Doing so to puff oneself up and feel good while tearing others down? 
Well that's down right


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> I had no idea that there were so many here whose lives were built over shaky ground.


Really? WOW! I thought that lives built on shaky ground was the NORM! I guess we come from 2 very different backgrounds!

"Life is uncertain and unpredictable."" Life will throw you curve balls." MMmmmm... no I CANNOT mention the next saying about life as the site owners would not like it. 

I was raised not to TRUST life, but rather to "accept the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" and to plow on through, and just do the best we can. 

Whether or not we come from a predictable background depends on how well our PARENTS have dealt with life, not us, and picking parents who have dealt with WW2 or the Great Depression of the DOT-COM bubble is not something that everybody can do!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Don't forget pride as one of the 7 deadly sins.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm proud of lots of things and I'll decide if it's a sin or not all by myself.


It's not !


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2014)

Words to ponder..or not..your choice 

Luke 18:9-15

"He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own 
righteousness and despised everyone else.

Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, "O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity-greedy, dishonest, adulterous- or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income."

But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, "O God, be merciful to me a sinner."

I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exhalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exhalted."

The words of Jesus Christ according to Luke.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Lesley, went to watch Son of God Fri.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lesley; I consider myself fortunate; I had good parents but my siblings and I grew up as poor as any in our community. What we have we've worked for and I see no need to apologize for that. We never felt sorry for ourselves, we looked around and saw what others did and what worked and what did not. 

We listened to our elders, who gave us some pretty stern advice concerning liquor--drugs were pretty much unknown in our time. As a result we prospered and I take satisfaction in that, more for my younger siblings than for myself--I consider myself the least accomplished of the lot.

So, you've added pride to the list. Good going. There are more. Don't forget anger.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

We are in the middle of the worst drought in recorded history, so I just went outside and danced to the rain God


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

oneraddad said:


> We are in the middle of the worst drought in recorded history, so I just went outside and danced to the rain God


You just had to say that didn't you, LOL. When I said that I thought of this very powerful video. At least it is powerful to me. I dance daily... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsL5Xy2q7Zk


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

What about hunting and fishing? I know of a few marriages bite the dust over them. They are not harmful to your body probably extends it because of the relaxation. I know people spend money quite a bit of money on them they may or may not have. A lot of time they may or may not have. Duck hunting is big around here and people have burnt blinds, shot at people and probably worst.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> Lesley; I consider myself fortunate; I had good parents but my siblings and I grew up as poor as any in our community. What we have we've worked for and I see no need to apologize for that. *We never felt sorry for ourselves,* we looked around and saw what others did and what worked and what did not.
> 
> We listened to our elders, who gave us some pretty stern advice concerning liquor--drugs were pretty much unknown in our time. As a result we prospered and I take satisfaction in that, more for my younger siblings than for myself--I consider myself the least accomplished of the lot.
> 
> So, you've added pride to the list. Good going. There are more. Don't forget anger.


Hmm,,Funny,,I feel sorry for you,,,


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> ...So far lust and gluttony are about the only ones mentioned....


Well, they do tend to be the most enjoyable!

Seriously, EVERYONE has their own devils, it's just that some are more visible than others.

Mon


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

ATTENTION: I'm on my soapbox here...

YES! Porn IS as addictive and damaging as drugs and alcohol. A true porn addict has many psychological issues as well. Porn is to the brain, the same as cocaine. Many MANY MANY issues can stem from a true porn addiction. ie..leading to child porn, molestation, rape, etc. Trust me..this is something that I DO know about per my recent divorce. 
nuff said.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Same as "Did I touch a nerve?"



I am aware of what the phrase meant. I wanted to know why it was directed at me.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

rkintn said:


> I am aware of what the phrase meant. I wanted to know why it was directed at me.


I wondered the same thing,,,
but then again,,,I've been wondering about a lot of these posts lately...

:sing:


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I could be wrong but I think he meant to direct that to Star. Rhonda didn't have any posts here until no.18 when she was replying to him. some would say I have a vice I suppose and if so it's going to continue until I either can't afford it or I'm too old and decrepit to know and that's having a glass of wine with my meal every evening same as I'm doing right now and I'm so enjoying it. ~Georgia.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

rkintn said:


> What are you talking about?


I think he doesn't know I can't see you even posted here. Brain blip perhaps and if you think you "chopped too close to the cotton" to me I suggest you are wearing the wrong undies. Perhaps others chopped too close to you in some of those vices


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Careful 
Lesley you will be accused of being a Bible thumper. Like you would consider that an insult NOT. Those who claim they stand on solid ground are the ones that are most likely to loose their footing when things start to slide. I just think someone is getting really bored lately


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I am surprised that dishonesty, lying, has not been mentioned. Some of the most devastating emotions have been created by lies. While truth can be painful, lies are invasive, going to our deepest points of vulnerability. This vice of deception has probably been chosen by all of us at some point in our lives. Maybe repeatedly. And it hurts the people around us and does the same to us. And usually it is a component of all the other vices.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

bajiay said:


> ATTENTION: I'm on my soapbox here...
> 
> YES! Porn IS as addictive and damaging as drugs and alcohol. A true porn addict has many psychological issues as well. Porn is to the brain, the same as cocaine. Many MANY MANY issues can stem from a true porn addiction. ie..leading to child porn, molestation, rape, etc. Trust me..this is something that I DO know about per my recent divorce.
> nuff said.


I am pretty sure that I missed the post that started this topic cuz I have seen it mentioned a couple of times now. So it has me curious about the details and all.


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

I was referring to things mentioned in post 4,6, and 7...


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

rkintn said:


> I am aware of what the phrase meant. I wanted to know why it was directed at me.


 Senility. 
He didn't use enough "willpower" to overcome being senile.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Porn just isn't as funny as the news. No wonder nobody except old ladies look at it much.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

starjj said:


> I heard a good saying recently but I won't share it because Shrek in his wisdom may say it is a personal attack but believe me in this case it applies. Perhaps Ox is getting bored and doing the pot stirring as Bill use to do.


My thoughts exactly!!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

No, Ruby; I posted this thread because I really believe that it is stupid to get into a habit that destroys lives. No one gets hooked on the first drink or on the first toke. It has to be repeated. 

The drunks and addicts can protest all they want, but the fact is that the world has known for centuries what the effects of too much alcohol are, and what happens to people who indulge in drugs. Further, the people here who have admitted to these addictions have shown that they do not lack intelligence--their addictions cannot be attributed to ignorance. 

I'm pretty certain that if I drank regularly I could become a drunk. I'm certain that if I snorted cocaine a few times I could become an addict. Not gonna do it any more than I'm going to run out in the road in front of a truck. 

These posts have shown that it is not necessary to carry a life-long addiction. That much is positive. I hope that at least some people will benefit.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Oxankle said:


> No, Ruby; I posted this thread because I really believe that it is stupid to get into a habit that destroys lives. No one gets hooked on the first drink or on the first toke. It has to be repeated.


Ox - I am not just referring to this post of yours. I am referring to the tone of many of your posts, lately. 

Many things can destroy lives, and they have been touched on here and there. It is your tone, such as above, that you deem it "stupid" that someone would get into a habit that destroys their lives. And, as many have stated, there are other dynamics that play into addictive behaviors. 

I find it insulting to those that have and are battling with their own demons and ignorant that you think it is about stupidity that leads them to it and continue abusive behavior. 

By the grace of God, walk I.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

No, Chuck..you're wrong.

An alcoholic IS hooked after his very first drink..a drug ADDICT IS hooked after his very first usage...

You could drink a gallon of alcohol every day for 5 years and NOT become an alcoholic..that's the point...you HAVE TO HAVE the genetic makeup to become an alcoholic or an addict..tons of people abuse alcohol, but they are not alcoholics...falling down drunk every week does not = alcoholism...billions of people try using drugs, most of whom do NOT become addicts. 

This is not the bible according to Lesley..this is medical science.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Not all people can control their behavior..... the end


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

I wonder if the tendency toward addiction is not a genetic trait? It does seem to run in families. I've not read any articles about an "addiction gene", but that doesn't mean there are no such articles. Would a person with such a gene become addicted to the first thing that comes along? Or the best thing they discover? Would the addiction be ever-changing? Could you go from addicted to Mountain Dew to addicted to porn, to addicted to heroin? and back again?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

zong said:


> I wonder if the tendency toward addiction is not a genetic trait? It does seem to run in families. I've not read any articles about an "addiction gene", but that doesn't mean there are no such articles. Would a person with such a gene become addicted to the first thing that comes along? Or the best thing they discover? Would the addiction be ever-changing? Could you go from addicted to Mountain Dew to addicted to porn, to addicted to heroin? and back again?


IMHO, this is a very interesting commentary from the NIH, with references for those who truly wish to be informed on the subject regarding science...those who would deny the research as "hogwash" will find it less interesting..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715956/


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Medical science once told us that stomach ulcers were caused by stress; I suspect that the last word on addiction/alcoholism has not been spoken. 

Gunpowder, during its manufacture, goes thru a process where it is washed with grain alcohol. In WWII powder makers found that many of its operators at the washing station were becoming highly intoxicated, the claim being that the fumes made them so. For months they were sent to the aid station and then home to sleep it off. 

Then a tough old doctor decided he'd try washing out their stomachs. The incidence of alcoholic intoxication at powder plants just about disappeared when this treatment spread.

I wish the drunks and addicts well; I just don't believe that addiction is inescapable.
Ox


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

tambo said:


> What about hunting and fishing? I know of a few marriages bite the dust over them. They are not harmful to your body probably extends it because of the relaxation. I know people spend money quite a bit of money on them they may or may not have. A lot of time they may or may not have. Duck hunting is big around here and people have burnt blinds, shot at people and probably worst.


Gasp!!! Say what?? You mean women don't go hunting with their men??? Egads..... Maybe marriage counseling should be done out in a boat or a blind!


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

here is my vice


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I have a 1 legged vice. It constantly leans on the side of a big ole stump. I feel sorry for it, bein cripple and all. Jaws are pretty smooth to, but it can still put a bite on anything I stick in them.

AND N O< DONT GO THERE LOL.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

zong said:


> I wonder if the tendency toward addiction is not a genetic trait? It does seem to run in families. I've not read any articles about an "addiction gene", but that doesn't mean there are no such articles. Would a person with such a gene become addicted to the first thing that comes along? Or the best thing they discover? Would the addiction be ever-changing? Could you go from addicted to Mountain Dew to addicted to porn, to addicted to heroin? and back again?


Well whoever game me my addiction to food gene can take it right back... :buds:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ulcers are a bacterial infection.....


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

When medical science told us they were caused by stress, medical science must have been wrong, no?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

The bacteria is present; when we 'stress' or 'drink'....you weaken the human bodies immune system, thereby giving the bacterial free reign to reek havoc on the system.

SO if someone said "stress" is the ONLY reason for an ulcer, they were incorrect.
Medical technology, education, and understanding is so different today than what it was 30 years ago.
Just think, in 30 years, we may look at chemo/radiation and say "WHAT WERE WE THINKING".....


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Like the iron lung


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

Yup....Medicine is imperfect..so don't access it..there..problem solved and good luck Chuck.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> Like the iron lung


How so? It kept me alive for 28 days.

I can see the OPs point. But doesn't help anyone who fell into the pit. I have never fallen into a pit and had to drag myself back out. I had a bad childhood but got away early, at 12. I stayed busy, drank good clean water, a little good simple food and all the love I needed. Most people are not so lucky. I see the hurt in the world and praise God almighty, I am the luckiest Man alive....James


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I made reference to the IL as, like cemo, a treatment that although it worked, more or less, today, OR tomorrow in some time, we will look back and say, what were we thinking. We coulda just done this or that, and it would have been so much easier on the patient, or so much cheaper, whatever.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

An oxygen tent kept me alive when I was a kid before GS, but I don't think they make much use of them nowadays.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

There is only one vice which owns everyone and that is the many varied aspects of humanity, all of which combined provide a healthy growth and any of which after prolonged and intense solitary exposure to will become toxic and blight human growth.

Life is what is experienced from the constant mixing and balancing of the many elements of humanity by mortals to achieve the best social mix for their social environment.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Shrek said:


> There is only one vice which owns everyone and that is the many varied aspects of humanity, all of which combined provide a healthy growth and any of which after prolonged and intense solitary exposure to will become toxic and blight human growth.
> 
> Life is what is experienced from the constant mixing and balancing of the many elements of humanity by mortals to achieve the best social mix for their social environment.


 Wow. What a wordy way to not have anything useful or of merit to say.
That's some self-serving, philosophical babble, Shrek, and it shortchanges those of us who have some real, actual vices. Go away, dude, and find somewhere else to be profound and all-knowing, because you're ruining a perfectly good forum. I'm disgusted.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I think the most common vice people refuse to acknowledge, making it the most difficult to give up is DRAMA.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Work'n on it.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

I am not giving up my Vice


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Interesting article in our paper today by a DR. Komoroff, who writes a syndicated med. advice column. 

He discusses addiction and says that it is a "disease". Then he goes on to say that a person can quit when they really want to. 

It's a little more complicated than that, but it all boils down to "want to quit" and willpower. He mentions relapses and trying again. As I've said all along, weaklings can't or won't quit because they will not keep trying.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

I've heard,,,"God only gives us what we can handle",,,,

Maybe that's why you don't have a problem,,,,,

Couldn't handle it !!!! :facepalm:

Edited,,,,This is intended as humor,,Please take it that way,,,It's not meant personally,,,,:sing:


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I think it takes strength to admit that one needs help, no matter what the situation is.

I have also learned that swallowing my pride isn't fatal but at times hurts like


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LA: No offense taken. 

Roadless; According to what I read, admitting to oneself that help is needed is the first step to recovery. Komaroff (I did not spell the name correctly in the first of these posts) lists his own set of steps in recovery, and he says, as do the people here, that the danger persists after recovery. 

Far better to decide early that the pleasure of booze and dope is not worth the price to be paid.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Thing is, there's a lot of people who don't know there's a problem. Everybody they've ever known are that way, they've always been that way and this is their normal. With empathy you understand how discombobulated you become when your normal physiology and environment is turned upside down.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> LA: No offense taken.
> 
> Roadless; According to what I read, admitting to oneself that help is needed is the first step to recovery. Komaroff (I did not spell the name correctly in the first of these posts) lists his own set of steps in recovery, and he says, as do the people here, that the danger persists after recovery.
> 
> Far better to decide early that the pleasure of booze and dope is not worth the price to be paid.





If they RECOVERED why does the danger persist? He is just peddling a view point and opinion without any first hand experience. I can furnish an opinion on a lot of things that I have never had to deal with and that only makes it valid to me.


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

From what I have witnessed, I don't think anyone can FULLY recover. Maybe just find new coping skills...usually one habit or addiction is traded for something else. So, that is why the danger would always persist. Very few can TOTALLY walk away and NEVER even think about it again or be tempted.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I suppose it depends on what one regards as recovery. To me it would mean sobriety, the ability to hold a job, the absence of police in one's life, a peaceful and loving family life without the fear and loathing of drunken episodes.

Falling off the wagon in the process of healing seems to be normal, but the only two drunks/addicts that I know well have been "recovered" for a long time now. I have never heard of either falling off the wagon since I've known them.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

Great program for those who are negatively effected by an alcoholic parent-sibling-grandparent-relative.

Helps those who do not have a problem, deal with those who do.


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