# Need a good game camera to catch a peeping tom



## onebizebee

I would like to get some advice on what is a good game camera. One that is not noticed by animals or humans does one even exist. Meaning no lights on it to alert the perp it is there. We have a security system with cameras on the outside of our home but and here is the BIG but..we can not get a clear enough shot of his face to make a positive id. The sheriff will not take a grainy picture at all. These are not crappy cameras they are just not enough to get a good clear pic of his face. Uggg. We have already spent a bunch of money fencing our back yard off to keep him out. We have motion activated lights all around our house. He does not care. We have dogs as well. He does not care. He had to jump our fences 4 times to get in to the yard. They are field wire with barb on top that is electrified. He just leaps over them like a deer. This is the fourth time we have caught him on our property on camera. I would love to give him a lead injection but I am not willing to go to jail for him. So shooting him is not an option unless he somehow manages to get in the house. When he is here he is masturbating outside our living room window while watching us. Yes we have blinds on the windows. The other night we caught him at it again. We had not shut the blinds for the night on that back side of the house yet. We had just shut the window from pulling cool air in to the house. This guy does not care who is in the room he watches all of us to get his jolly's. He was watching my husband the other night none of the other family members were in that room. Just my hubby. We do not run around nude or scantly clad. Our bedroom windows are closed all the time we do not open the blinds in them or the curtains. You can not see in them ever. This situation is getting very frustrating. I have to get a clear picture of his face to make an ID. I am 95% sure of who it is. Just can't do anything about it yet. Suggest me a good game camera to nail this jerk. I just want him caught before his peeping is not enough and he decides to go after one of my children or myself.


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## Forcast

what about the big rat traps he might feel it if he is not in steal toed shoes. or the water sprayer that gos off with movement. at least while your waiting for a better photo. I would be camping on my roof with a bucket or 2 of cold tar.


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## Cornhusker

I don't know about cameras, but I'd be outside waiting for him
That's just creepy


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## Bearfootfarm

Go up a foot or two higher on the fence with hot wires.
Get better/more security cameras linked to a computer so they can record.

There really aren't too many reliable "game cameras" that will get a good clear picture of his face unless it's at eye level and with 10 ft or so, which means he will see it


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## cfuhrer

I think my "decorative" fur trap collection would be moved to the flower beds. :evil grin:


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## poppy

cfuhrer said:


> I think my "decorative" fur trap collection would be moved to the flower beds. :evil grin:


Or dig about a 3 foot hole below his favorite window to fill with good soil and plant some shrubbery in the near future. Be sure to cover it with dead limbs and mulch or leaves so turtles or toads don't fall in. Wouldn't want anything to get hurt.


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## kasilofhome

You know.... if you catch the peeping Tom.... you can't keep him


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## farmrbrown

There are some good game cameras out there, but IMO, this has gone beyond that point.
I'm a little surprised your sheriff didn't take it more seriously and expects you to do all his work for him.
It's time to catch this guy before he escalates things further.
A snare trap under the windows, strong enough to hold him until you get to him.
I suggest a few other things, but you know how our legal system is......
The point is, the quicker he's stopped, the better.


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## wiscto

Holy chips... I really have no idea. But honestly, if his face is right up by the window, it kind of sounds like your best shot is a night vision capable camcorder from inside. A good one.


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## Evons hubby

Next time you see him lurking just go out and invite him in.... Then take a good clear picture with any decent camera.


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## Bearfootfarm

Keep in mind those trap suggestions will land *you* in jail if he or anyone else gets injured.

I'd consider getting a can or two of the strongest pepper spray you can find, and spend some time waiting outside for him to show.

Get the kind with the red dye and soak him well when he "takes matters into his own hands"


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## Patchouli

Oh man that is awful. You know a few years back we had trouble with someone sneaking up and stealing gas from my truck. I didn't want to shoot anyone over gasoline but I did want to scare the living crap out of them. So we set one of us up to watch for the thief and the other to sit in the backyard with the loudest gun we own aimed at a target. When we heard them sneaking up the drive we unloaded the gun at the target. They took off and left their stuff behind. Never lost a drop of gasoline since.


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## farmrbrown

Normally I would agree with advising against a manual trap, but in this case, the signs are there and very disturbing. This isn't trespassing, vandalism or petty theft, it's much worse.

http://www.chesterfieldobserver.com...eep_Experts_say_voyeurs_can_turn_violent.html

It may be worth it to spend a few sleepless nights waiting outside for him to gain sleep after he's caught, but I wouldn't wait much longer to put a stop to it.


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## Shine

I just spent $400 dollars on a set of security cams for my boss and set them up to record in his home and caught the person that was coming into his home when it was pitch black. The photos derived from the cams were HD in pitch darkness. There is not any chance this person will get off. I spent maybe 20 minutes finding them online. They are wireless to the control unit and as long as you have an electrical plug in within 10 feet of where you wish to place the cameras then you are good to go - but they are obvious.

I wish you well.


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## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> Normally I would agree with advising against a manual trap, but in this case, the signs are there and very disturbing. This isn't trespassing, vandalism or petty theft, it's much worse.
> 
> http://www.chesterfieldobserver.com...eep_Experts_say_voyeurs_can_turn_violent.html
> 
> It may be worth it to spend a few sleepless nights waiting outside for him to gain sleep after he's caught, but I wouldn't wait much longer to put a stop to it.


It doesn't much matter if the signs are disturbing, booby traps are still illegal.

The police are already aware of the situation so keeping watch for him is the smart plan. 

It won't help to catch him if you end up riding to jail along with him


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## Fennick

Onebizebee, until you can get the kind of cameras you want set up here is an alternative suggestion that might help discourage your peeper for the time being.

This summer I'd been having a problem with 2 kinds of trespassers - homeless drug addicts coming onto the property to shoot up drugs and then leaving their used needles and paraphernalia behind on the grounds and one particular individual (a woman) coming late at night to dig up and steal ornamental plants beneath the windows as well as container plants I have in the back. 

Guard dogs, traps and real cameras set up are not an option and I'm far too old and decrepit to hang around hiding outside feeding the mosquitoes and twiddling my thumbs until all hours of the night waiting on the off-chance to confront anyone or take their picture. So I had a friend pick up some non-functioning (fake) video cameras for me to put in full view inside right on the windowsills and I had several signs made up to put in conspicuous places around the premises. One type that says THESE PREMISES MONITORED BY 24 HOUR VIDEO SURVEILLANCE and another type that is smiley faces with printing on them that says SMILE FOR THE CAMERAS. There is also a couple of signs I made up myself and put out near the driveway and road that say WATCH OUT FOR MOTHER SKUNK AND BABIES IN THE BUSHES HERE. I haven't had any more problems with either kind of trespassers since.

If I was up to it I'd be happy to sit outside waiting with a paintball gun, slingshots and pepper spray ..... but I'm not up to it. I'd love to nail them with a paintball gun. Many, many times. But I'm not up to dealing with the kind of retaliation that would probably bring either unless I'm prepared to haul out there with real guns.

Onebizebee, I find it disturbing that the police are not being more proactive in dealing with your situation. If that guy is doing that at your house I wonder how many other houses he's doing it at where maybe people don't have cameras and don't know he's there and what he's doing on their properties.

Are your dogs all indoor pets - not outdoor guard dogs that will bark? If they're indoor dogs your peeper has no reason to care about them.

I think you need some kind of motion detection alarm system out there that makes a lot of noise or turns on sprinklers when anything of a certain size approaches the house.


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## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> It doesn't much matter if the signs are disturbing, booby traps are still illegal.
> 
> The police are already aware of the situation so keeping watch for him is the smart plan.
> 
> It won't help to catch him if you end up riding to jail along with him


It's obvious you don't read state statutes nor know the difference between a leg snare that prevents escape and a "booby trap".

You wouldn't be charged with any crime and the remote possibility of a _civil_ suit is one I would take in a heart beat.

Trying to stop a rape, kidnapping or murder, AFTER getting no help from the police?
I like my odds with any jury.


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## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> It's obvious you don't read *state statutes *nor know the difference between a leg snare that prevents escape and a "booby trap".
> 
> You wouldn't be charged with any crime and the remote possibility of a _civil_ suit is one I would take in a heart beat.
> 
> Trying to stop a rape, kidnapping or murder, AFTER getting no help from the police?
> I like my odds with any jury.


So show me a statute from the OP's state that says leg snares for human trespassers are legal



> Trying to stop a *rape, kidnapping or murder*, AFTER getting no help from the police?
> I like my odds with any jury.


Those crimes , *when they are taking place*, can be legally stopped with deadly force.
You can't legally stop a crime that isn't happening by using any force


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## arabian knight

farmrbrown said:


> It's obvious you don't read state statutes nor know the difference between a leg snare that prevents escape and a "booby trap".
> 
> You wouldn't be charged with any crime and the remote possibility of a _civil_ suit is one I would take in a heart beat.
> 
> Trying to stop a rape, kidnapping or murder, AFTER getting no help from the police?
> I like my odds with any jury.


Besides that would not the Castle Doctrine come into play then? You are feeling you are being 'threatened' at least in the sense of that law. The Castle Doctrine is a nice tool to fall back on I would think.


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## Darren

For some reason poison ivy in planters that can be moved around comes to mind. Think of them as cover or bait for the peeper.


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## onebizebee

Here is a bit more info we have a guard dog. A German Shepard. He is very good at avoiding him when he is out on patrol. The peeper does not care. He waits until we let him back in the house. Several of the neighborhood outdoor dogs are being poisoned. We do not keep our dogs outside at night. They go out to potty and Apache the Shepard goes on his rounds. We are surrounded by dense woods. The man is a seasonal worker. He is more than likely not here legally. He and other workers live just up the road from me. We know he is Hispanic. He is very short. I am 5' 2" he is either my height or just a bit smaller. He has been on my neighbor&#8217;s porch and was seen by them as well. They called the police but they would not do anything for them either. Same story no positive Id no arrest. They just kept telling the neighbor do not shoot him. Ugg. He is very bold. He was on their gated porch. He could not get the gate open when he went to flee. He jumped 12 feet to the ground off that porch and made it away unscathed. He is very athletic and in obviously good physical condition. We can put game cameras up close to that window that he prefers. He pretty much ignores the other cameras. He just makes sure he does not get to close to them. I think we are the first stop on his route of homes to hit. He does not steal. Just peeps so far. I have to get this guy before he takes it to the next level. He is very very bold. It is my fear he will take it to the next level. I have no doubt he will.


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## SLFarmMI

Is there any way the stalking laws would apply so you could get him on that? Or maybe, since the local police are not helping you, call the state police and see if they have any suggestions. Can't help you with any camera suggestions. I'd be tempted to sit in the bushes with a BB gun and put a pellet into his business but that would be illegal. Hopefully, you'll find some help.


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## onebizebee

Here in Tennessee the Castle doctrine only works if the person is in your home. I can not physically harm this individual on purpose. He can miscalculate one night and land of top of the fence cutting himself then turn around and sue me. You would be horrified to know how many rights a criminal has. It's one thing to want to cause someone harm even when they truly deserve it. Believe me if it were not of risk of being sued or going to jail myself there are many things I would like to do to him... but I can not. I have my kids to raise still and they need their mama for a good number of years yet. I have thought about paint ball guns with the rounds coated in UV powder so it will stick to him and is very difficult to wash off. Not to mention have him leave a florescent trail to follow. I have thought of a super soaker squirt gun filled with UV dye again hard to wash away so he is easily tracked. I have a black light and will follow. Just need to make sure we can track him with the sheriff of course. We have to have a way to make a positive Id.


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## onebizebee

When I do nail this guy he will be charged with criminal trespass, indecent exposure to a minor, stalking, lewd behavior etc. He will get charged we just have to have a sure fire way to catch him.


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## Sawmill Jim

onebizebee said:


> When I do nail this guy he will be charged with criminal trespass, indecent exposure to a minor, stalking, lewd behavior etc. He will get charged we just have to have a sure fire way to catch him.


I think I might decide I didn't like that window and surprise it with a load of shot from a 12 gauge . :sing: I have never heard of a law against shooting out your own windows :facepalm:


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## Bearfootfarm

I think what I would do is organize a "Neighborhood Watch" group to get someone out and waiting for the guy.

If he's making the same rounds, someone should be able to spot him and call the police or follow from a distance to see where he goes.

You can't set a trap, but you can set an "ambush" if you have the manpower


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## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> I think I might decide I didn't like that window and surprise it with a load of shot from a 12 gauge . :sing: I have never heard of a law against shooting out your own windows :facepalm:


That would be murder
They won't charge you for shooting the window though, so that part was right


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## arabian knight

Sawmill Jim said:


> I think I might decide I didn't like that window and surprise it with a load of shot from a 12 gauge . :sing: I have never heard of a law against shooting out your own windows :facepalm:


how about a nice load of rock salt shot out the end of the barrel. LOL


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## Tricky Grama

Next time you see him out there, if you won't shoot him, how 'bout tossing lit firecrackers, where he can't see that it's fireworks?


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## 7thswan

I think you need to hire a pro. Say a bounty hunter, someone used to stalking a perp. They will hide in wait and catch the guy. Maybe you can collect funds from other neighbors maybe a BH will do it for no charge. Get it all on tape/camera. One reason I do not have blinds in any of my homes any more ever-you can see thru them esp if turned the wrong way and on a upper floor. 
This guy is a sicko and is getting emboldended more each day. And keep your dog safe, loosing him is not worth it, arm yourself.


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## wiscto

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Next time you see him lurking just go out and invite him in.... Then take a good clear picture with any decent camera.


Inviting him in becomes a credibility issue.


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## wiscto

onebizebee said:


> Here in Tennessee the Castle doctrine only works if the person is in your home. I can not physically harm this individual on purpose. He can miscalculate one night and land of top of the fence cutting himself then turn around and sue me. You would be horrified to know how many rights a criminal has. It's one thing to want to cause someone harm even when they truly deserve it. Believe me if it were not of risk of being sued or going to jail myself there are many things I would like to do to him... but I can not. I have my kids to raise still and they need their mama for a good number of years yet. I have thought about paint ball guns with the rounds coated in UV powder so it will stick to him and is very difficult to wash off. Not to mention have him leave a florescent trail to follow. I have thought of a super soaker squirt gun filled with UV dye again hard to wash away so he is easily tracked. I have a black light and will follow. Just need to make sure we can track him with the sheriff of course. We have to have a way to make a positive Id.


Man I'm really sorry about your situation. I know some of those security camera setups are obvious, but maybe that would deter a more severe attempt, maybe it would deter the guy entirely. I've seen some other stuff at WalMart too, some cheap motion sensor alarms, might be worth it for inside the house at night? 

This is just my opinion, but since some people are talking about the dogs, I think it's better to have the dogs inside for this situation, no matter what kind you have.


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## CrossCreek Mom

Not sure if any of these would work for you, but they're easy to conceal. I've been looking for something as well for a different circumstance. 

www.brickhousesecurity.com


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## MO_cows

What a creepy situation, I'm so sorry. Your sheriff's dept. is letting you down. They know where he will be on such a regular basis, this is the perfect situation for a stakeout.


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## Guest

You need to be a squeaky wheel with your local law enforcement, go up the chain of command, be vocal but polite and do not stop until someone puts in a true effort to solve the problem. Go all the way, local, state law enforcement, political members even share your feelings of abandonment with the press. If others in you area are feeling the threat ban together to make your demands. It works, seen it happen many a time and this is a fairly easy case to solve with a little manpower allotment and a real effort by law enforcement.


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## Sawmill Jim

Bearfootfarm said:


> That would be murder
> They won't charge you for shooting the window though, so that part was right


Sometimes in Tennessee things don't work like the rest of the world . :thumb:


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## wr

arabian knight said:


> how about a nice load of rock salt shot out the end of the barrel. LOL


I was thinking the same but I'd likely want to direct my shot at his master-bater.


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## suitcase_sally

Shine said:


> I just spent $400 dollars on a set of security cams for my boss and set them up to record in his home and caught the person that was coming into his home when it was pitch black. The photos derived from the cams were HD in pitch darkness. There is not any chance this person will get off. I spent maybe 20 minutes finding them online. They are wireless to the control unit and as long as you have an electrical plug in within 10 feet of where you wish to place the cameras then you are good to go - but they are obvious.
> 
> I wish you well.


ummm....

Why go to all the trouble of telling us this and not give us the brand and model of the camera?


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## Bellyman

Are there any dye packs, kinda like they use for bank robberies, that you could put near his favorite window that you could set off by remote control?


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## Ozarks Tom

I'd set up game cameras inside looking out. Check the shutter trip speed though, as they vary widely from camera to camera. The fastest I've found it the Simmons ProHunter Trail Cam. http://www.amazon.com/Simmons-ProHu...=1438023882&sr=8-4&keywords=simmons+trail+cam

By the way, it's Peeper/Peeping Pervert/Peeping Trespasser. Never Peeping Tom!!


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## mnn2501

dlmcafee said:


> You need to be a squeaky wheel with your local law enforcement, go up the chain of command, be vocal but polite and do not stop until someone puts in a true effort to solve the problem. Go all the way, local, state law enforcement, political members even share your feelings of abandonment with the press. If others in you area are feeling the threat ban together to make your demands. It works, seen it happen many a time and this is a fairly easy case to solve with a little manpower allotment and a real effort by law enforcement.


I agree, be the squeaky wheel, but call your local TV and radio Stations


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## KatieVT

mnn2501 said:


> I agree, be the squeaky wheel, but call your local TV and radio Stations


And mention that the sheriff doesn't seem concerned about the potential for kids to get harmed... Are sheriffs elected in your area? That could become quite the election issue down the road for him.


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## emdeengee

I would prefer to get a good photo of him instead of scaring him off - he will just move elsewhere and start harassing someone else.

Do you know any good hunters? The kind who have the patience to sit in a blind for hours? Even some who can track well? Invite them over for a few nights. Install some high powered lights that can be flipped on for high def photos or visibility when slapping on the handcuffs.


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## Patchouli

I would definitely try to get it out on the news somehow. Post on your local TV station's FB page. Get your neighbors to call too.


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## onebizebee

I ordered a game camera this morning after doing a ton of review reading. Got the right card to put in it and it should be here tomorrow. Hopefully this will be the last money I have to spend to catch this guy.Thank you all for the advice. If I can't catch him this way then I will contact my local news station. The law enforcement here seems to operate by a different standard than other states we have lived in. Same with the justice system on a whole. Unbeknownst to us we moved right in to thieves holler. We had even gone to the local sheriffs office to inquire about the crime on our road before we bought the place. They said there was nothing but the usual petty crimes. WRONG. Their idea of petty crime and my idea are a universe apart. There are several people here on this road that have a record miles long. One of them has been arrested 45 times. The other same this last time he was arrested for three meth labs. That is a federal offense. He is still running around creating havoc. I really do not expect to have any help from our local law enforcement. The one that is running the meth labs also got away with murder. This is the crap I deal with everyday. The only reason those particular individuals leave us alone is because they know we have cameras and we told their family members we are from Texas we shoot first(not really) and ask questions later shhhh they don't need to know that. Told them we are not putting up with the theft or drugs so pass along the word Don't mess with Texas. Apparently the peeping Juan didn't get that message.Will update on the catching of a pervert....hopefully soon.


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## Bearfootfarm

Rake the area outside the window to expose bare dirt in order to try and get some clear footprints that can be used as further evidence.


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## Cornhusker

wiscto said:


> Holy chips... I really have no idea. But honestly, if his face is right up by the window, it kind of sounds like your best shot is a night vision capable camcorder from inside. A good one.


If his face is up against the window, maybe a ball bat to the window would deter him from coming back


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## Harry Chickpea

If I had a guard dog that wouldn't at least raise a warning, that animal would have to find a new home.

With game cams and such, the giveaway is that the infrared lights glow slightly. Get SEPARATE infrared illumination.

Got any old flashbulbs or camera flash attachments around? Rig them up inside your window. If you see the guy is close, set them off. The light will blind him for a minute or two. What you do after that...

Personally, if I had kids, the deadbeat sheriff would find him imitating a pinata for the kids, complete with PERVERT written all over him in indelible marker. The guys in lockup could do the rest.


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## ceresone

My Goodness, everyone is being so nice!! Myself--a .22 with bird shot would take care of the problem--and all exposed too--but hey, that's just me..


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## Bellyman

I keep hoping we're going to come back to this thread one day real soon and read all about how this guy got caught and hauled off in the back of a police cruiser.


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## onebizebee

You an I both Bellyman!


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## AmericanStand

From all the OP has said here it seems a peeper is the least of her problems , sorry bout that.


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## Bearfootfarm

ceresone said:


> My Goodness, everyone is being so nice!! Myself--a .22 with bird shot would take care of the problem--and all exposed too--but hey, that's just me..


"Bird shot" in a 22 won't even hurt a bird from more than about 15 ft away, but it WILL get you arrested for shooting a person if you're not justified in using deadly force. It's fine to talk tough on the internet, but it's not a smart option


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## onebizebee

Agreed. It is one thing to talk tough. The thing is tho if you actually do shoot someone or hurt them by traps etc etc. Are you ready to deal with the outcome? They could end up owning your property if a judge or jury agrees with them. Even tho(sad day) they the trespasser is in the wrong by stepping foot on your property they truly have more rights than you the homeowner. For instance if I were to shoot wound or kill our resident meth maker anywhere other than in my house I can guarantee a lawsuit will be filed against us. His grandmother bails him out of jail every time he gets put in. She would sue the heck out of us if the man dies or is just wounded. If one of our registered sex offenders creeps in to watch us swim in our pool slips and falls he can sue us. Believe me if I could catch our peeper there are many things I would like to do to him but I can't. Very frustrating. The only way I can do anything is if he actually enters my home.


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## Tricky Grama

Gads. You should move to TX b/c at least we can protect ourselves & property.
Sounds like if he did get in your home & you wounded him, he'd sue & say he was invited!


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## Fennick

Tricky Grama said:


> Gads. You should move to TX b/c at least we can protect ourselves & property.
> *Sounds like if he did get in your home & you wounded him, he'd sue & say he was invited!*


If that happened then she could produce this public internet discussion as evidence that she is seeking advice and trying to do everything by the book within the law.


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## ceresone

Sorry, Bearfoot--but if there is a man fondling himself-outside the window of a 78 year old woman--I'm in fear of my life-and then Castle law kicks in.


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## AmericanStand

You must be very afraid of the sight of the one eyed snake. 
I'm not sure the jury would by it.


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## 7thswan

AmericanStand said:


> You must be very afraid of the sight of the one eyed snake.
> I'm not sure the jury would by it.


When one is so brazen and warped, this(ME) person would understand as a Jury member. I've often thought about this issue as I've been stalked, peeped ect. and even tryed to be napped 2 times as a young teenager on the way to school.
I have 3 rottweilers and figure if someone is insane enough to attempt to come bother me, I have only one option left to protect myself. Infact i once only had 1 rottie ,he alerted me to a peeper with a low growl looking at my bedroom window. I called the police, there were marks on the house sideing where a alum.ladder had been placed. Cop gave me his personal phone #.


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## Bearfootfarm

ceresone said:


> Sorry, Bearfoot--but if there is a man fondling himself-outside the window of a 78 year old woman--I'm in fear of my life-and then Castle law kicks in.


You'd better have a good lawyer and deep pockets if you think someone outside your home constitutes an imminent threat justifying the use of deadly force


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## AmericanStand

7thswan I think you have had a very unique life.


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## Nimrod

Peepers generally graduate to more serious crimes.

Be sure and put the game camera up high enough so he can't steal it. Some game cameras are stealth models and have no lights except a small glow from the infrared flash. If there are lights, other than the flash, cover them with black electrical tape.

Caltrops.


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## onebizebee

I got one that has no visible lights or sound. It is locked up tight and out of site. It takes great videos. It is in a place that it is not triggered by wind blowing grass or branches. I suspect we will have him in the next few weeks when he gets bold enough to come back. He can not help himself he always comes back. It is just a matter of time and patience.


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## Fennick

onebizebee said:


> *I got one that has no visible lights or sound.* It is locked up tight and out of site. *It takes great videos.* It is in a place that it is not triggered by wind blowing grass or branches. I suspect we will have him in the next few weeks when he gets bold enough to come back. He can not help himself he always comes back. It is just a matter of time and patience.


I'm glad you found something suitable.

What is the make and model please? I'm interested in checking into something like that for myself.


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## farmer9989

put motion detectors out side but put the lights that it turns on inside then you will know when he is out there and he won't know .
if you are in a state that won't let you shoot him ,move to Texas.
I would go out and beat him till he quit moving then remove his stuff he's pulling.put him on the street some were and leave.


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## Fennick

farmer9989 said:


> put motion detectors out side but put the lights that it turns on inside then you will know when he is out there and he won't know .....


That's an excellent idea. :thumb:


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## onebizebee

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Stealth+Cam+G42+No-Glo+Trail+Game+Camera+STC-G42NG the $121.00 camera We have motion lights all around our house. you can not walk one step with in 25 feet of our house with out tripping lights. He does not care. He is very very bold.


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## onebizebee

I don't know if this will work but here is photo bucket. You can see the videos there. Some of them you will only see him for a second and some of them you have to wait a little bit until he comes in to the frame. hold on technical difficulties.... think I got it in the next post maybe.... not good at technology.


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## onebizebee

I don't know if this will work but here is photo bucket. You can see the videos there. Some of them you will only see him for a second and some of them you have to wait a little bit until he comes in to the frame. hold on technical difficulties.... lol http://vid1022.photobucket.com/albu...4549-214853-12p10004000000400_zpsuudj0uhh.mp4

http://vid1022.photobucket.com/albums/af342/onebizebee/security/Running away_zpsn9gcok1z.mp4


----------



## 7thswan

AmericanStand said:


> 7thswan I think you have had a very unique life.


Yes, I have. Crazy,horrible , amazing. I've been told many times before the age of 20 I should write a book. I did not come to who I am right now easly. And right now, I am probably going thru the hardest things I will ever go thru. Time has tryed to prepare me, but I'm always shocked by the evil of people.


----------



## 7thswan

onebizebee said:


> I don't know if this will work but here is photo bucket. You can see the videos there. Some of them you will only see him for a second and some of them you have to wait a little bit until he comes in to the frame. hold on technical difficulties.... lol http://vid1022.photobucket.com/albu...4549-214853-12p10004000000400_zpsuudj0uhh.mp4
> 
> http://vid1022.photobucket.com/albums/af342/onebizebee/security/Running away_zpsn9gcok1z.mp4


OK. Creepy. If you were close, I'd be willing to hide/sit and beat the crap out of that slimey little stick man.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

onebizebee said:


> I don't know if this will work but here is photo bucket. You can see the videos there. Some of them you will only see him for a second and some of them you have to wait a little bit until he comes in to the frame. hold on technical difficulties.... lol http://vid1022.photobucket.com/albu...4549-214853-12p10004000000400_zpsuudj0uhh.mp4
> 
> http://vid1022.photobucket.com/albums/af342/onebizebee/security/Running away_zpsn9gcok1z.mp4


If you're saying you already have him on video, you may want to rethink posting evidence in a potential legal proceeding on the internet before an arrest or trial


----------



## onebizebee

Why? the news stations post videos on the news broad casts all the time saying do you know these people? They are wanted for ............fill in the blank. We had one recently of a guy pulling up to a woman's house entering her home and then in the next frame him running out the house holding his face and speeding off in his truck. She shot him on the face and chest. He was there to rob her. He lived but is now residing in jail for a good long while on our dime.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

onebizebee said:


> Why? the news stations post videos on the news broad casts all the time saying do you know these people? They are wanted for ............fill in the blank. We had one recently of a guy pulling up to a woman's house entering her home and then in the next frame him running out the house holding his face and speeding off in his truck. She shot him on the face and chest. He was there to rob her. He lived but is now residing in jail for a good long while on our dime.


The news stations do it at the request of the police.


----------



## newfieannie

I'd help 7thSwan beat the snot out of him. I don't think I read where you have a man around. I've no doubt some of the men on here and the women too would have had him laid low long ago and fixed him so he could never do what he's doing again. jmo though .there's probably something I don't understand about it.~Georgia


----------



## Bellyman

I'm anxious to see whether your new camera can get you some pictures that are good enough you can't help but identify the person. At that point, if the police won't do anything, it's time to sing like a canary to any news person you can find, singing loud and long. That would rile people up, and police departments and politicians don't like people riled up.


----------



## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> The news stations do it at the request of the police.


That is SOMETIMES true, but not ALWAYS true.
News stations are not subject to police requests or approval, and that's a GOOD thing.:thumb:


----------



## onebizebee

I do have a man around and he wants him gone as much as I do. Just can not take care of business the way we would like to due to legal matters. Neither one of us is willing to go to jail for this guy. When we do get him he will be deported. He is not a legal citizen here.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Been saying prayers for yall. Hope you get him identified soon and can at least get him for trespassing. Do you have no trespassing signs?

I seriously doubt this is the first or last time he's done this, and I seriously doubt this is the most harmful or harmless thing he's done to people.

I'd be keeping notes for myself on incidents and what/who you've made calls to for reporting this. And, I'd be very tempted to give that info and videos to news sites to let it go viral. Lots of media are covering stories of illegals or suspected illegals lately and its likely to stay a hot topic issue for the rest of this presidential election news cycle.

Really hope you get this resolved quickly and easily asap. Will continue to pray for y'all. Thanks for keeping this thread updated. What a rotten situation!


----------



## Patchouli

That is very creepy! Is there any way you can get the camera closer to where he stands?


----------



## Bellyman

onebizebee said:


> I do have a man around and he wants him gone as much as I do. Just can not take care of business the way we would like to due to legal matters. Neither one of us is willing to go to jail for this guy. When we do get him he will be deported. He is not a legal citizen here.


I wonder, would he really get deported? A lot of illegals never do get deported, even felons.


----------



## Oxankle

Why don't you go to your local tv station and tell them this story?
Ask them if they would be interested in setting up a hidden camera to catch this guy in the act for a news report---Might be interesting. Be sure to show them your own security footage so they will know what to expect.
Ox


----------



## FarmerKat

Bellyman said:


> I wonder, would he really get deported? A lot of illegals never do get deported, even felons.


Lot of them do not get deported. DH worked a case where a guy was doing things to scare his wife but nothing that would allow an arrest. For example, he would flood the house. But since he was part owner, there is no law against vandalizing your own property. The cops were there multiple times, they figured things would escalate and he would hurt his wife. They wanted him off the street before things escalated. The only arrestable thing they had on the guy was his illegal immigration status. But ICE would not pick him up ... Super frustrating for the cops and very scary for the woman.

Onebizebee, I hope you get him soon. Praying for you.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

If you don't know who he is , how do you know he's here illegally?


----------



## FarmerKat

Bearfootfarm said:


> If you don't know who he is , how do you know he's here illegally?


I think she said previously they were 95% sure who it is. Just not 100% to make a completely positive ID to the police.


----------



## onebizebee

He works/picks the tobacco fields. He rents a house with three other Mexicans on my road from the spring until the late fall. We do not have any issue with him during the winter months.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

onebizebee said:


> He works/picks the tobacco fields. He rents a house with three other Mexicans on my road from the spring until the late fall. We do not have any issue with him during the winter months.


That's not proof he's here illegally.
Lots of migrant farm laborers get work visas, and return to Mexico in the off seasons, or travel to other parts of the country


----------



## arabian knight

FarmerKat said:


> I think she said previously they were 95% sure who it is. Just not 100% to make a completely positive ID to the police.


 Time to sent these rats back to where they came form. Period.


----------



## AmericanStand

Maybe he wonders what it's like to live in the big house ?


----------



## onebizebee

Perhaps. But going by the word of the people(my neighbors) who rent to them who hire them they are illegal/undocumented. I will be sure to find out when I finally get this guy.


----------



## cfuhrer

I can't remember if you've already addressed this. Are you notifying authorities EVERY time he shows up?

I know being the squeeky wheel gets tiresome but it could be that "Chief, Bee's on line three to report him... again" will get tiresome for them before it gets tiresome for you.


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## onebizebee

Yes we call every time he is here. Sometimes they show up most of the time they don't.


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## 7thswan

I don't know...maybe you need some chickens,,,my dh sits in wait outside at night and gets those ***** that come in to raid the coop.


----------



## where I want to

Geese? I know I avoid them like the plague.


----------



## FarmerKat

This just occurred to me today ... have you addressed this with the landlord who is renting the house to this guy? You mentioned that this landlord rents to them every summer and I would think they would rather pick a different tenant if this guy acts like this.

When I was researching information on re. rental properties, I read that if a landlord does not perform proper background checks on the tenant, the landlord can be held legally liable for the tenant's behavior. For example, if you rent to a sex offender (because you did not screen your tenants) and he rapes the neighbor, you are liable for the crime. Now, I don't remember if you can be held criminally liable but you can certainly be held liable in civil court. Maybe someone else knows more about this. I know this - as a landlord - scared the you-know-what out of me and I am keeping thorough documentation on all background checks we performed on prospective tenants.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

He's not been convicted of anything that anyone knows of, and he's not even been positively ID'd

What about "innocent until proven guilty"?


----------



## FarmerKat

Bearfootfarm said:


> What about "innocent until proven guilty"?


So if you saw this guy masturbate in front of your window (on your property) on a regular basis and had videos of him ... you would be perfectly happy with him being there because he is innocent? At what point would you consider him not innocent? I understand that general public should consider him innocent until he is tried and convicted by jury but if he was at *my* house and* I *saw him with *my* own eyes, *I* would not consider him innocent. *I* would consider him a pervert and a threat to my family.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

FarmerKat said:


> So if you saw this guy masturbate in front of your window (on your property) on a regular basis and had videos of him ... you would be perfectly happy with him being there because he is innocent? At what point would you consider him not innocent? I understand that general public should consider him innocent until he is tried and convicted by jury but if he was at *my* house and* I *saw him with *my* own eyes, *I* would not consider him innocent. *I* would consider him a pervert and a threat to my family.


He hasn't been positively identified nor caught as far as I know.

*You* can "consider" him anything you like, but that has nothing to do with his landlord, so why should he listen to you?


----------



## Fennick

onebizebee said:


> Perhaps. But *going by the word of the people(my neighbors) who rent to them who hire them they are illegal/undocumented.* I will be sure to find out when I finally get this guy.


So, is it legal where you live for your neighbour to hire undocumented illegals for work and provide rental housing to them? I could be wrong but I thought it was illegal to knowingly harbour and encourage illegals.

If it's not legal for your neighbour to do that and you're sure your peeper is one of your neighbour's harboured illegals then maybe it's time for you to have a tough talk with your neighbour about his hiring practises. Seems to me the neighbour who hires them is part of the problem by encouraging a pervert illegal alien to stay on.


----------



## Patchouli

Geese, guineas and/or ducks provide an excellent alarm system.


----------



## arabian knight

FarmerKat said:


> So if you saw this guy masturbate in front of your window (on your property) on a regular basis and had videos of him ... you would be perfectly happy with him being there because he is innocent? At what point would you consider him not innocent? I understand that general public should consider him innocent until he is tried and convicted by jury but if he was at *my* house and* I *saw him with *my* own eyes, *I* would not consider him innocent. *I* would consider him a pervert and a threat to my family.


You got that right. He is a threat and would be treated such. You know what they say, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> You got that right. He is a threat and would be treated such. You know what they say, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"


People who rely on foolish sayings to justify illegal actions tend to serve long sentences. 

Macho talk on the internet is no substitute for knowing what is legal and what is not wherever you live.


----------



## Harry Chickpea

Patchouli said:


> Geese, guineas and/or ducks provide an excellent alarm system.


... and lunch.


----------



## onebizebee

Sorry no updates as of yet. Our weather is turned to thunderstorms and rain. Not good peeping weather. Haven't been online much my youngest had a complex wisdom tooth/teeth extraction along with a wayward eyetooth that got impacted in the roof of her mouth. She had surgery 24 hours ago and is just now getting feeling back in her lower lip and chin. She is in more pain from the roof of the mouth extraction rather than the 4 wisdom teeth. It is going to be a rough couple of days while she heals. Will keep you posted on the creeper tho if anything changes.


----------



## Harry Chickpea

"Our weather is turned to thunderstorms and rain. Not good peeping weather."

Motion activated sprinkler...


----------



## Patchouli

onebizebee said:


> Sorry no updates as of yet. Our weather is turned to thunderstorms and rain. Not good peeping weather. Haven't been online much my youngest had a complex wisdom tooth/teeth extraction along with a wayward eyetooth that got impacted in the roof of her mouth. She had surgery 24 hours ago and is just now getting feeling back in her lower lip and chin. She is in more pain from the roof of the mouth extraction rather than the 4 wisdom teeth. It is going to be a rough couple of days while she heals. Will keep you posted on the creeper tho if anything changes.


Hope she heals quickly!


----------



## Tricky Grama

Fennick said:


> So, is it legal where you live for your neighbour to hire undocumented illegals for work and provide rental housing to them? I could be wrong but I thought it was illegal to knowingly harbour and encourage illegals.
> 
> If it's not legal for your neighbour to do that and you're sure your peeper is one of your neighbour's harboured illegals then maybe it's time for you to have a tough talk with your neighbour about his hiring practises. Seems to me the neighbour who hires them is part of the problem by encouraging a pervert illegal alien to stay on.


Under a USA administration, you'd be right. Under THIS administration, no one gets deported. This guy needs counseling, then a full time job. And a drivers license.
A suburb near me tried to pass a law saying it was illegal to rent to illegals. You'd think that already was, huh. No, and the backlash was unreal. They were all racists, ya know.


----------



## Tricky Grama

:hijacked::hijacked::hijacked::hijacked::hijacked:


7thswan said:


> Yes, I have. Crazy,horrible , amazing. I've been told many times before the age of 20 I should write a book. I did not come to who I am right now easly. And right now, I am probably going thru the hardest things I will ever go thru. Time has tryed to prepare me, but I'm always shocked by the evil of people.


:hijacked:
What doesn't kill ya makes ya stronger, huh, 7th. But, hey. Sometimes you'd just like a little NORMAL, huh.
Prayers & good thoughts for whatever is troubling you now.

Patty.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Whoops, I couldn't tell if I got the icon on that post...sorry for the overkill.


----------



## TxHorseMom

Could you call the INS and report the illegals?


----------



## Agriculture

This whole story just sounds incredible to me. The police don't take it seriously? Yeah, right. So now he's an illegal? Of course, add a touch of a currently in vogue topic to spice up the story even more. Next thing we know he'll be a transgender something or other who identifies as an African lion. He'll have more legal protections than the president, AND the sympathy of the media and the gullible public. After all, he's going to extremes in jumping fences, avoiding dogs, ignoring lights and husbands, just to follow his heart. Stop persecuting the poor guy you haters.


----------



## FarmerKat

Agriculture said:


> Stop persecuting the poor guy you haters.


Why don't you send him your address and invite him to masturbate in your yard? I am sure the OP can post a note with your invitation where he can see it.


----------



## dizzy

Can you install some type of driveway alarm so at least you know when he's out there? The ones I've seen have no lights on them, but will sound an alarm in your house.


----------



## TripleD

My aggravation factor would have kicked in by now. He would at least stepping on plywood strips with nails buried in the ground.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

TripleD said:


> My aggravation factor would have kicked in by now. He would at least stepping on plywood strips with nails buried in the ground.


You'd be going to jail for setting "booby traps", and you could be sued for causing his injuries.

You should really learn what's legal before giving bad advice or taking action, or you will end up in more trouble than the perps


----------



## AmericanStand

It depends on why those plywood strips are there. If you set a booby trap it's one thing but if you take a few crates apart that landscaping came in it's another.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

AmericanStand said:


> It depends on why those plywood strips are there. If you set a booby trap it's one thing but if you take a few crates apart that landscaping came in it's another.


You can still be held liable for injuries to anyone that occur on your property, even if they are there illegally.

Cops aren't as stupid as some seem to think, and they don't much care who they arrest if laws are broken.

The goal is to obtain enough hard evidence to have him arrested and convicted, and NOT to get the homeowner arrested for doing something stupid


----------



## crispin

Bearfootfarm said:


> You'd be going to jail for setting "booby traps", and you could be sued for causing his injuries.
> 
> You should really learn what's legal before giving bad advice or taking action, or you will end up in more trouble than the perps



Wow what a different perspective you have on life vs me.

I would shoot this person until they were dead and never think twice about it.

No one has rights on my private property.

No one has rights to cause my family harm.

I will defend my family and property with my life and nothing less.


----------



## Patchouli

crispin said:


> Wow what a different perspective you have on life vs me.
> 
> I would shoot this person until they were dead and never think twice about it.
> 
> No one has rights on my private property.
> 
> No one has rights to cause my family harm.
> 
> I will defend my family and property with my life and nothing less.


Hope your family can feed themselves without you then.


----------



## crispin

Patchouli said:


> Hope your family can feed themselves without you then.



At least they wouldn't be raped or murdered, that would be a plus wouldn't it?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

crispin said:


> Wow what a different perspective you have on life vs me.
> 
> I would shoot this person until they were dead and never think twice about it.
> 
> No one has rights on my private property.
> 
> No one has rights to cause my family harm.
> 
> I will defend my family and property with my life and nothing less.


You'd go to jail for murder since they have done nothing at all to legally justify the use of deadly force

It's easy to be the macho dude on the internet, but you won't feel so tough in a holding cell facing life in prison.

If you really want to "protect your family" you should educate yourself about what the law allows



> At least they wouldn't be raped or murdered, that would be a plus wouldn't it?


You could be, in prison, while your family is home alone


----------



## crispin

Bearfootfarm said:


> You'd go to jail for murder since they have done nothing at all to legally justify the use of deadly force
> 
> It's easy to be the macho dude on the internet, but you won't feel so tough in a holding cell facing life in prison.
> 
> If you really want to "protect your family" you should educate yourself about what the law allows



Not sure what state you live in but here in my state, if you are in my yard at night trying to break in my home to possibly cause harm to my family, I am fully able to use deadly force.

I would never live anywhere else.

In my city just a couple of years ago, a person woke up to find his truck being stolen, he ran outside and shot the thief in the head, preventing his property from being stolen. No charges were filed.

I am sorry you chose to live in a state that does not allow you to protect your family or property, not all of us live like that.

I am far from an "internet tough guy", I am just a hard working, American loving, man who will protect what he has and feels sorry for those that will not.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Are you outside city limits??
Can you walk out on your front porch, and bust off a couple rounds out of shot gun while he's in the bushes..........to send a message that this show is over???


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Not sure what state you live in but here in my state, if you are in my yard at night *trying to break in* my home to possibly cause harm to my family, I am fully able to use deadly force.


Nowhere in this thread has the OP stated this person has tried to break in.
Details matter.

I can legally use deadly force to prevent a "break-in" but that's not what's being discussed here


----------



## Tricky Grama

crispin said:


> Not sure what state you live in but here in my state, if you are in my yard at night trying to break in my home to possibly cause harm to my family, I am fully able to use deadly force.
> 
> I would never live anywhere else.
> 
> In my city just a couple of years ago, a person woke up to find his truck being stolen, he ran outside and shot the thief in the head, preventing his property from being stolen. No charges were filed.
> 
> I am sorry you chose to live in a state that does not allow you to protect your family or property, not all of us live like that.
> 
> I am far from an "internet tough guy", I am just a hard working, American loving, man who will protect what he has and feels sorry for those that will not.


Post of the day award.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Quite some yrs back a guy shot-from his window-and killed a homeless man who had been eating as well as taking trash from his trash can. 
Did not go to jail.

I have to say, I truly thought that was a shame...not deserving of death.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> Quite some yrs back a guy shot-from his window-and killed a homeless man who had been eating as well as taking trash from his trash can.
> Did not go to jail.
> 
> I have to say, I truly thought that was a shame...not deserving of death.


Texas law allows the use of deadly force to protect property.
Most states do not


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> In my city just a couple of years ago, a person woke up to find his truck being stolen, he ran outside and shot the thief in the head, preventing his property from being stolen. No charges were filed.


The statutes for TN say deadly force can only be used to protect people, not property:
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/tennessee/tn-code/tennessee_code_39-11-621


> A private citizen, in making an arrest authorized by law, may use force reasonably necessary to accomplish the arrest of an individual who flees or resists the arrest; provided, that *a private citizen cannot use or threaten to use deadly force except to the extent authorized under self-defense or defense of third person statutes*, Â§Â§ 39-11-611 and 39-11-612.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Bearfootfarm said:


> Texas law allows the use of deadly force to protect property.
> Most states do not


I failed to see the need to protect garbage you'd thrown away.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> I failed to see the need to protect garbage you'd thrown away.


You're the one talking about garbage.
I commented only on what is legal in TX


----------



## ceresone

I'm just astonished at anyone sounding as if they are defending this slime. Yes--if he is IN MY yard, On MY farm, peeping in my windows, then he IS a danger to ME. And Missouri law allows me to defend my home--and property. With no man in the house--and my age--you REALLY think he wouldnt be a threat??


----------



## TripleD

Bearfootfarm said:


> You'd be going to jail for setting "booby traps", and you could be sued for causing his injuries.
> 
> You should really learn what's legal before giving bad advice or taking action, or you will end up in more trouble than the perps


Do you really think the perp is going to the police and press charges ?

If he does the OP would at least know who he was....


----------



## AmericanStand

It's a tough one I know there's all this talk about things escalating but we all know if he was shot even in Texas What would happen. 
The jury would ask each other if he was such a danger why didn't he do something the other 40 times he was there ?
Then I'm sure they would say besides why didn't they just call the cops ?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

ceresone said:


> I'm just astonished at anyone sounding as if they are defending this slime.
> 
> *Yes--if he is IN MY yard, On MY farm, peeping in my windows, then he IS a danger to ME.*
> 
> And Missouri law allows me to defend my home--and property. With no man in the house--and my age--you REALLY think he wouldnt be a threat??


I'm not "defending" anyone.

I'm pointing out the fallacy of thinking you can shoot anyone who comes onto your property. 

You can NOT shoot trespassers in Missouri. 
You can NOT shoot someone for looking in your windows



> 563.031. 1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary *to defend himself or herself or a third person* *from* what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or *imminent use of unlawful force *by such other person,


You can only use deadly force if you or someone else is in danger of being hurt or killed, and not just to protect your property.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

TripleD said:


> Do you really think the perp is going to the police and press charges ?
> 
> If he does the OP would at least know who he was....


If he's hurt badly enough as to require emergency medical assistance, the police will be coming to your home with the EMT's

He won't have to "press charges" since that is what the State does.


----------



## onebizebee

Nothing to report. Soon I am sure. Nice weather is on the way so I know he will be back. Hubby is just as fed up as I am. We spent the weekend upgrading our security camera system to a 16 camera system with much better resolution. There are now several cameras aimed at his preferred spots and one very close and personal to his his favorite window. In addition to my game camera. Now we continue to wait.


----------



## 7thswan

onebizebee said:


> Nothing to report. Soon I am sure. Nice weather is on the way so I know he will be back. Hubby is just as fed up as I am. We spent the weekend upgrading our security camera system to a 16 camera system with much better resolution. There are now several cameras aimed at his preferred spots and one very close and personal to his his favorite window. In addition to my game camera. Now we continue to wait.


Wow, your going to be our official spy camera expert, good for you:goodjob:


----------



## Bellyman

onebizebee said:


> Nothing to report. Soon I am sure. Nice weather is on the way so I know he will be back. Hubby is just as fed up as I am. We spent the weekend upgrading our security camera system to a 16 camera system with much better resolution. There are now several cameras aimed at his preferred spots and one very close and personal to his his favorite window. In addition to my game camera. Now we continue to wait.


Good for you!!! I think there are lot of people on here who are anxious to hear the story of how this guy gets caught and dealt with appropriately.

Wishing you the best!


----------



## Patchouli

I agree, I was really hoping you had caught him!


----------



## dizzy

Same here. I haven't posted much on it, but I've been following it. I keep hoping I'll get on and read he was caught.


----------



## gibbsgirl

onebizebee said:


> Nothing to report. Soon I am sure. Nice weather is on the way so I know he will be back. Hubby is just as fed up as I am. We spent the weekend upgrading our security camera system to a 16 camera system with much better resolution. There are now several cameras aimed at his preferred spots and one very close and personal to his his favorite window. In addition to my game camera. Now we continue to wait.


Thanks for checking in here with an update. Been praying for y'all. Just sounds like an awful situation. Really hoping it gets resolved for you quickly and safely and ends.

Appreciate you keeping us updated. Been worried for your stress and safety. Please let us know how it's going when you have time.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Onebizebee,

Hope y'all are doing OK and that no news is good news.

Been praying for y'all.

Hope you get a chance to hop on here and let us know things are well.


----------



## ceresone

Defender camera system?


----------



## partndn

Just hoping onebizebee might check here and let us know what the happenings have been.
I'm curious to know if the new camera has enough improvement to identify and satisfy law enforcement so action could be taken.

Better yet.. the dude got arrested for some other offense and save bizebee the trouble!


----------



## AmericanStand

Yes inquiring minds and All ?


----------



## onebizebee

Nothing to report yet! He was creeping around last night but not at my house further on up the road from me. It is just a matter of time I promise you!


----------



## ceresone

reason I ased about cameras, mine seem to have excellent nightime resolution


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## onebizebee

This new system is from Night Owl we got it at Home Depot. This system has very good night vision. The resolution is also much better. We ordered it on line at their website came very fast right to the house. Very simple system to use as well. I much prefer this one to the old system we had.


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## JohnP

When I lived in FL, I knew a guy who ran a guard dog service. He would bring them to the property in the evening and pick them up in the morning. These were trained German Shepherds and trained to take people down. Only requirements were signs placed at intervals of 25 feet indicating the property was protected by guard dogs. (bilingual signs with dog head/teeth) IIRC he also had situations where he would leave the dogs there all the time and introduce/train the property owner so that they could put the dogs in a smaller fenced in area by day. 

What about talking to the tobacco farmer? 

If it was me, this would be over with by now. One way or another. 

Citizen's arrest? Hold the guy at until the cops get there. You'd have the guy on camera walking up, you're husband and another guy or two from the neighborhood would show up on camera and wrestle the guy down and hold him there. No clear face shot needed, no laws broken except for him trespassing. Get a restraining order at that point and more might be able to be done if there's a next time. For all the money you've spent on cameras, you could/should have got a consultation with a lawyer to find out what can and can't be done. 

This is just crazy.


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## onebizebee

First we have to catch the guy. We never know when he is going to show up. It is very random. The times we have seen him was pure luck. He likes to go to other peoples homes in our area too not just us. This has been one of the single most frustrating things we have ever dealt with in our lives.


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## Patchouli

onebizebee said:


> First we have to catch the guy. We never know when he is going to show up. It is very random. The times we have seen him was pure luck. He likes to go to other peoples homes in our area too not just us. This has been one of the single most frustrating things we have ever dealt with in our lives.


I sure hope he gets arrested soon I know this has to be wearing on you and your family!


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## CircleStarRanch

okay I have been following this thread and am appalled - not only at the perp but at the rest of you do-gooders. The OP doesn't say what state she lives in, but it would seem that most states have a castle doctorine of some sort or another. We all have the right to protect ourselves and our property. In AZ, if I have no tresspassing signs posted it is a misdemeanor to be on my property without my permission. If I have the property fenced and have locked gates, AND a No Tresspassing sign it is a felony. To that end I will shoot. period.

Considering it may may take a county sherrif deputy an hour and a half to get here, we take care of ourselves. Both my German Sheppard and my Doberman have a free run of the fenced property 24/7/365. If a tresspasser of any sort can get past them, we have the armaments to protect ourselves, our livestock and our property, and we will use what is necessary to do so. Calling the sherriff would be a curtesy to them and to ask to send the coronor. We live near a major "traffic route" for those individuals who are supposedly in our country "looking for a better life". 

Grow some  and protect yourself BEFORE it is too late.

-Dutch


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## Oxankle

Circle Star;

No idea how big your ranch is, but if you shoot someone just passing thru a ranch, even if it is posted, you are committing murder. Someone in your yard attempting to steal who will no submit to an order to surrender you could probably get away with. 

Someone in Az tell me if you can legally kill, even an illegal, crossing posted land and committing no other offense. 
Ox


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## Agriculture

There are two things that are amazing here. One is that there are so many people who are falling for this story. Go back and read the original post and ask yourself if it makes any sense at all how someone can go through so many obstacles and still do all that it is claimed that he does for so many times and still not get caught.

Second is that there are so many internet heroes who claim that they would handle the situation as it is described with lethal force and still think that there would be no repercussions for them. They are in for a real shock if they ever really took action in ways that they are claiming.


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## DryHeat

> Someone in Az tell me if you can legally kill, even an illegal, crossing posted land and committing no other offense.


The technical answer, I believe, is "no" but the *practical* situation turns into "yes" if there are no witnesses especially and the shooter is a lying psychopath who can keep his story straight and keep repeating that he thought the victim had a firearm or other weapon, making him in immediate fear for his own life.

And even if there *are* witnesses... there was a "road rage" case in Tucson not long ago. Car was moving in right-hand lane of a major six-lane divided highway, needed to make a left at a light a block ahead, so suddenly cut across two lanes of moving traffic and stopped at the red light's left turn lane. Driver who had been cut off by this jackwagon pulled up beside him (both drivers male with female passengers) and started yelling at him out his open window, probably making suitable gestures and so on. Driver being yelled at pulled out a .45 and fired several rounds past his own passenger's face, one or two shots going through his own passenger-side exterior mirror, killing the other driver sitting beside his girlfriend. Then he sped off, turned onto random side streets, eventually removed the bullet-pierced mirror, never called 911. He claimed he thought the other driver had a gun so he feared for his life and was "standing his ground" under the AZ castle statutes. He *was* indicted and put on trial in Pima County. Under the judge's instructions of the letter of the law, he was *acquitted.* Not a hung jury, "innocent." I haven't seen if there was, or is ongoing, some civil suit (like in the OJ case) that still might find him responsible for financial damages, and going through a full jury trial had to be expensive and stressful, so that's *something* at least, but the precedent now in AZ is clearly that if the shooter immediately and persistently says he thought he saw a weapon, or thought the victim was reaching for one, and he was afraid for his life, the law as written recently by the state legislature won't allow a criminal conviction (assuming at least one juror thinks the state hasn't DISproven the "in fear of my life" part of it). Incidentally, this incident occurred on Oracle Road about two blocks north of where Gabby Giffords was shot.

I can't believe you could shoot someone with a rifle from a distance and have that "fear of life" and "standing ground" stuff protect you, though. As an AZ resident, I'd sure hope to be on a jury in such a case so I could help put anyone just gunning down an illegal migrant like a deer in season away for the rest of his life. But... if you were to run out on your property and chase down somebody then just face-to-face, close range, blow him away and keep stating you thought he was reaching for a weapon and you feared etc etc ... it appears the AZ law would protect you even if you were lying, as long as the forensics were consistent and you didn't trip yourself up with contradictory statements.


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## Agriculture

Why is having an opinion uncalled for? The whole story just sounds so sensational to me to not be embellished.

I'l be the first one to admit when I'm wrong, with proof. It happened once.


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## Patchouli

DryHeat said:


> The technical answer, I believe, is "no" but the *practical* situation turns into "yes" if there are no witnesses especially and the shooter is a lying psychopath who can keep his story straight and keep repeating that he thought the victim had a firearm or other weapon, making him in immediate fear for his own life.
> 
> And even if there *are* witnesses... there was a "road rage" case in Tucson not long ago. Car was moving in right-hand lane of a major six-lane divided highway, needed to make a left at a light a block ahead, so suddenly cut across two lanes of moving traffic and stopped at the red light's left turn lane. Driver who had been cut off by this jackwagon pulled up beside him (both drivers male with female passengers) and started yelling at him out his open window, probably making suitable gestures and so on. Driver being yelled at pulled out a .45 and fired several rounds past his own passenger's face, one or two shots going through his own passenger-side exterior mirror, killing the other driver sitting beside his girlfriend. Then he sped off, turned onto random side streets, eventually removed the bullet-pierced mirror, never called 911. He claimed he thought the other driver had a gun so he feared for his life and was "standing his ground" under the AZ castle statutes. He *was* indicted and put on trial in Pima County. Under the judge's instructions of the letter of the law, he was *acquitted.* Not a hung jury, "innocent." I haven't seen if there was, or is ongoing, some civil suit (like in the OJ case) that still might find him responsible for financial damages, and going through a full jury trial had to be expensive and stressful, so that's *something* at least, but the precedent now in AZ is clearly that if the shooter immediately and persistently says he thought he saw a weapon, or thought the victim was reaching for one, and he was afraid for his life, the law as written recently by the state legislature won't allow a criminal conviction (assuming at least one juror thinks the state hasn't DISproven the "in fear of my life" part of it). Incidentally, this incident occurred on Oracle Road about two blocks north of where Gabby Giffords was shot.
> 
> I can't believe you could shoot someone with a rifle from a distance and have that "fear of life" and "standing ground" stuff protect you, though. As an AZ resident, I'd sure hope to be on a jury in such a case so I could help put anyone just gunning down an illegal migrant like a deer in season away for the rest of his life. But... if you were to run out on your property and chase down somebody then just face-to-face, close range, blow him away and keep stating you thought he was reaching for a weapon and you feared etc etc ... it appears the AZ law would protect you even if you were lying, as long as the forensics were consistent and you didn't trip yourself up with contradictory statements.


Makes me glad I do not live in Arizona. I hope that guy does have a civil suit filed against him. I don't understand how any jury could want someone like that running free on their streets.


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## Agriculture

Patchouli said:


> Makes me glad I do not live in Arizona. I hope that guy does have a civil suit filed against him. I don't understand how any jury could want someone like that running free on their streets.


I understand it based on this quote:



> Under the judge's instructions of the letter of the law, he was *acquitted.* Not a hung jury, "innocent."


Still doesn't make it right, but I understand how it can happen. I was once on a jury for a drunk driving case. Many of us thought the guy was guilty, but based strictly on the judge's instructions we had to find him innocent. I was younger and I still think about that case and like to think that if I were on it today I would hold firm and insist that he was guilty. After all, we were the jury and we had the ability to make whatever decision we thought was right. If it were only about the judge's instructions about the technical applications of the law, then he could have just ruled however he wanted and we wouldn't have needed a jury in the first place.


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## Bearfootfarm

CircleStarRanch said:


> okay I have been following this thread and am appalled - not only at the perp but at the rest of you do-gooders. The OP doesn't say what state she lives in, but it would seem that most states have a castle doctorine of some sort or another. We all have the right to protect ourselves and our property. In AZ, if I have no tresspassing signs posted it is a misdemeanor to be on my property without my permission. If I have the property fenced and have locked gates, AND a No Tresspassing sign it is a felony. To that end I will shoot. period.
> 
> Considering it may may take a county sherrif deputy an hour and a half to get here, we take care of ourselves. Both my German Sheppard and my Doberman have a free run of the fenced property 24/7/365. If a tresspasser of any sort can get past them, we have the armaments to protect ourselves, our livestock and our property, and we will use what is necessary to do so. Calling the sherriff would be a curtesy to them and to ask to send the coronor. We live near a major "traffic route" for those individuals who are supposedly in our country "looking for a better life".
> 
> Grow some  and protect yourself BEFORE it is too late.
> 
> -Dutch


Actually she did give the state, and it is NOT legal there to shoot trespassers.

It really makes no difference what you have at your home, since you aren't in Tennessee.

All the macho rhetoric is useless when the laws don't allow deadly force

Most of those who have used the term "Castle Doctrine" appear to have no idea what it really means

Instead of "growing  ", get some education on what is legal


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## onebizebee

I will post an update when this guy comes back. I do appreciate all the prayers and concerns. Thank you.

I asked for advice on what game cams are decent. I have no experience with them at all. Plenty of people here do. I wanted to hide one so it would be sure to get a good image of his face. We did not have the money to upgrade our system until about three weeks ago. It is now upgraded. Perversion really? What is the matter with you? You a peeping creeper yourself Agraculture? Is this touching a nerve with you perhaps? Yep you can certainly have your opinion but then again what is that saying about opinions? Ahhh yes it has to do with body parts and everyone's got one just some are bigger than others. Yours seems to be a flapping with hot air a lot more than others. 

Circle Star, As far as growing a pair... Really you go right ahead. You will need them in jail. I am not willing to go to jail for this guy neither is my husband. We will continue to wait him out. He will most certainly be back. He can't help himself.


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## kuriakos

CircleStarRanch said:


> okay I have been following this thread and am appalled - not only at the perp but at the rest of you do-gooders. The OP doesn't say what state she lives in, but it would seem that most states have a castle doctorine of some sort or another. We all have the right to protect ourselves and our property. In AZ, if I have no tresspassing signs posted it is a misdemeanor to be on my property without my permission. If I have the property fenced and have locked gates, AND a No Tresspassing sign it is a felony. To that end I will shoot. period.
> 
> Considering it may may take a county sherrif deputy an hour and a half to get here, we take care of ourselves. Both my German Sheppard and my Doberman have a free run of the fenced property 24/7/365. If a tresspasser of any sort can get past them, we have the armaments to protect ourselves, our livestock and our property, and we will use what is necessary to do so. Calling the sherriff would be a curtesy to them and to ask to send the coronor. We live near a major "traffic route" for those individuals who are supposedly in our country "looking for a better life".
> 
> Grow some  and protect yourself BEFORE it is too late.
> 
> -Dutch


Castle doctrine does not allow you to shoot anyone who is not an imminent threat to you or another, no matter what state you're in. A trespasser is not an imminent threat unless he escalates from trespassing to something that can actually hurt someone. I hope you're lucky enough not to ever have a trespasser, or smart enough not to really shoot one, because a post like this could be used against you at your trial.

The OP has been entirely reasonable with her approach.


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## onebizebee

Just to give you an idea of our wonderful justice system here. This is a couple of wonder blunders that grew up on my road. Fortunately they are not living on my road any longer but their family still is. Read the article and decide for yourself how awesome our justice system is here in my county. Read the bottom of the article especially. http://www.timesnews.net/article/90...d-sex-complaint-get-combined-500-days-in-jail


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## gibbsgirl

Onebizebee,

Don't sweat the posts that are harsh. I've found some people confuse "frustratingly unbelievable" with "frightening and upsetting".

We've had plenty of stuff we've dealt with in our life. Seen and heard other pretty " unreal" stuff from friends and family over the years that was real.

It happens and all folks can do is try and stay aware and minimize opportunities for "opportunists", and hope we never find ourselves in those situations. But, many times folks do, and it sucks to have to even consider what's allowed as far as protecting and defending yourself. But, plenty of folks do. The world is a pretty messed up place to be plenty often.

Shoot, a few years ago, I watched a guy jump out of a car on the parking lot at our baseball/neighborhood park and make a beeline to the ladies room, right after my daughter went in alone. I was working the concession stand. It was the end of the evening. Only a few folks on a few diamonds
.

I yelled for some coaches, who didn't hear me well. Since they were in the opposite direction, I just ran straight to the bathroom about 70-80 yards away. He was standing in the stall next to her without his door latched shut. I grabbed her as soon as she came out if the stall, and took off to get back to the area our baseball people were at. He was gone before o could even get a hold of my husband by phone.

Another opportunist. And, that park had cops at it often enough that it wasn't what should have been considered the most target rich environment in the area.

The league reported it to the cops, and we changed our rules, so that we always had some of our bigger men league officials at the park til every family was gone for the day, including keeping guys near the bathrooms.

Your camera idea was a good one. You gotta so sonething right?

Still praying for y'all, including your other neighbors.

Keep us posted.


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## gibbsgirl

onebizebee said:


> Just to give you an idea of our wonderful justice system here. This is a couple of wonder blunders that grew up on my road. Fortunately they are not living on my road any longer but their family still is. Read the article and decide for yourself how awesome our justice system is here in my county. Read the bottom of the article especially. http://www.timesnews.net/article/90...d-sex-complaint-get-combined-500-days-in-jail


Wow! Two people with 76 arrests on 14 years! That's awful. What a mess. Just the time, and tax money alone to process those two is awful. And, it sounds like nothing has changed as far as them hurting people in the community. Real life IS unreal sometimes, huh.


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## dizzy

Onebizebee, I hope you nail this guy and that he gets more than that couple did! That's crazy.


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## DryHeat

> based strictly on the judge's instructions we had to find him innocent


I think that was the position the AZ jurors thought they found themselves in also, perhaps even the *judge* since he was obliged to state the law as written. After I'd thought it all over, debating just what I personally might have done had *I* been one of the jurors (not impossible since I live in the area), I realized I just might have raised the concept of "jury nullification" during deliberations, the rather controversial idea that a jury can under rare circumstances decide that the law itself as written is so outrageous, so contrary to basic ethics and humanity, that it can and should be disregarded by returning a verdict that simply is admittedly contrary to its own letter. The most common "application" of that idea has been to return acquittals for minor drug possession situations which would result in a horrific long imprisonment should a technically correct conviction be given, or for such situations as disruptions or trespassing by a war protester, or some such. In *this* case, it would be an insistence on a conviction, at least by one juror, at least of some reduced charge, so there were a hung jury, outright saying the law itself was unjustifiable and therefore a majority of the state's lawmakers were thoughtless, careless, unethical idiots. In at least one case, in Texas I believe, a juror who insisted on an acquittal on this "nullification" concept was held in contempt for not stating that was a belief he/she held during the screening for jurors, although as best I recall they weren't ultimately tried and convicted AND imprisoned. I'm pretty sure I've decided that I'd personally state in advance that under some very rare situations I just might have to initiate a discussion of the nullification concept during deliberations if I were called for a jury now. I suppose any such advance announcement would likely get me sent home immediately, but so it goes.


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## onebizebee

gibbsgirl said:


> Wow! Two people with 76 arrests on 14 years! That's awful. What a mess. Just the time, and tax money alone to process those two is awful. And, it sounds like nothing has changed as far as them hurting people in the community. Real life IS unreal sometimes, huh.



Yes, it is unreal a lot of the time! These two are just the tiniest tip of the iceberg of crime that goes on here. I sometimes wonder if the crime and the individuals on my road alone keep our sheriffs department employed. When I say it is bad it is really, really bad. One of my neighbors got away with murder. Now he thinks he is untouchable. He might be right. He likes to run with those two in the article I posted above. He has an arrest record that is much higher than 45 times. I would like to move but at this time we can not it is not feasible.


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## TripleD

onebizebee said:


> Yes, it is unreal a lot of the time! These two are just the tiniest tip of the iceberg of crime that goes on here. I sometimes wonder if the crime and the individuals on my road alone keep our sheriffs department employed. When I say it is bad it is really, really bad. One of my neighbors got away with murder. Now he thinks he is untouchable. He might be right. He likes to run with those two in the article I posted above. He has an arrest record that is much higher than 45 times. I would like to move but at this time we can not it is not feasible.


I thought I had problems with the trailer park across the road from the farm.... Good hunting onebizebee !


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## Agriculture

> I yelled for some coaches, who didn't hear me well. Since they were in the opposite direction, I just ran straight to the bathroom about 70-80 yards away. He was standing in the stall next to her without his door latched shut. I grabbed her as soon as she came out if the stall, and took off to get back to the area our baseball people were at. He was gone before o could even get a hold of my husband by phone.


From the way that you describe it, it sounds very much like it could have been a simple case of him not paying attention to which bathroom was which, it wasn't well marked, or he simply really had to go, and chose the closest bathroom. I think that there was a recent thread on this very forum where a bunch of women here thought it no big deal at all for them to use the mens' room if need be. What I can't understand is that if you really did have cause to suspect that he was up to no good (that you haven't indicated here) why in dog's name didn't you scream bloody murder in order to protect you child? All the guys there would have been on him like a pitbull on a pork chop. Call your husband on the phone, and the police after the fact? Who does that, especially when she suspects that her child was in danger? I guess it is a good idea to keep the men posted near the bathrooms if that is how the women handle these situations. BTW, it is very common for guys to leave the stall door open if only urinating. It's no different from standing at a urinal. That in itself is not the sign of anything untoward, especially if he believes that he is in the mens' room, or unless you want to get hysterical and turn what could be an innocent mistake into something that it is not.


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## gibbsgirl

Agriculture said:


> From the way that you describe it, it sounds very much like it could have been a simple case of him not paying attention to which bathroom was which, it wasn't well marked, or he simply really had to go, and chose the closest bathroom. I think that there was a recent thread on this very forum where a bunch of women here thought it no big deal at all for them to use the mens' room if need be. What I can't understand is that if you really did have cause to suspect that he was up to no good (that you haven't indicated here) why in dog's name didn't you scream bloody murder in order to protect you child? All the guys there would have been on him like a pitbull on a pork chop. Call your husband on the phone, and the police after the fact? Who does that, especially when she suspects that her child was in danger? I guess it is a good idea to keep the men posted near the bathrooms if that is how the women handle these situations. BTW, it is very common for guys to leave the stall door open if only urinating. It's no different from standing at a urinal. That in itself is not the sign of anything untoward, especially if he believes that he is in the mens' room, or unless you want to get hysterical and turn what could be an innocent mistake into something that it is not.


No. Bathrooms clearly marked, and he followed he in there. Just a few seconds behind her. I yelled the entire way running to the bathroom. Nope, he wasn't going to the bathroom, just standing in the stall directly next to her.

There were other children in the town the year that had been attempted to be kidnapped going to school of various ages.

I startled him. Onc I was in the bathroom, I talked to my daughter trying to keep her calm but hurried to just get her out and quickly back to where there were other people. She had no idea he was there or anything was worng. He had at least one other person waiting in the car near the bathroom. He left the bathroom shortly after us and jumped in the car and took off.

The police did get all the information later that night. But, not everyone calls the police all the time at the drop of a hat, or in the middle of a problem. At that moment, there was nothing that calling the police would have done. I did what I could to be sure that I just got her and I out and away.

There were about three coaches on two diamonds with a few kids in back near and behind the concession stand. They weren',t near the bathroom.

I get that innocent mistakes happen, but there is very little chance that this was one of those cases.


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## Agriculture

If you say so. I'd hate to have to face the parents of the next child who wasn't so lucky because I didn't confront the guy, call police right then and there, send my daughter running to grab some other adults to help, watch from a distance and get a license plate number...... you know, just do something, if there were a real danger and not just my imagination.


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## AmericanStand

Sorry GG but I have agree sounds like he just wanted to pee. If he wanted your girl he woulda been alert to your yelling and grabbed her fast. 
Lol most guys know that confused feeling of not finding the urinals and the embarrassment of a woman walking in would have had me running back to my car even if I had to soil my drawers !

Remember every bathroom marked women still says Men.


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## gibbsgirl

You guys are hilarious. So which was is, I was wrong for not calling the cops in the middle of it, instead of getting to my kid and getting her out of there, or I was wrong for doing anything because the guy was totally innocent? Never mind, I didn',t actually write my post for you anyway. It was for onebizebee, just so she's get a little encouragement during what seems to be a pretty frustrating time for her family. But, feel free to carry on and have the last word or whatever.


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## Bearfootfarm

gibbsgirl said:


> You guys are hilarious. So which was is, I was wrong for not calling the cops in the middle of it, instead of getting to my kid and getting her out of there, or I was wrong for doing anything because the guy was totally innocent? Never mind, I didn',t actually write my post for you anyway. It was for onebizebee, just so she's get a little encouragement during what seems to be a pretty frustrating time for her family. But, feel free to carry on and have the last word or whatever.


I suspect it was an innocent mistake and you overreacted, since the guy wasn't "sneaking around", he wasn't making sure no one was watching, and he didn't have any contact with her at all.


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## Agriculture

I can't help but wonder why none of the guys present heard a woman yelling all the way to the bathroom. The women too for that matter. 
"What was that?" 
"I didn't hear anything. You hear something?" 
"Oh no, here she goes again." "You go see what she wants." 
"No, you." "Hey, nice play Jimmy!" 
"Leave her be. She'll have something to post on the internet next week."


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## FarmerKat

gibbsgirl said:


> You guys are hilarious. So which was is, I was wrong for not calling the cops in the middle of it, instead of getting to my kid and getting her out of there, or I was wrong for doing anything because the guy was totally innocent? Never mind, I didn',t actually write my post for you anyway. It was for onebizebee, just so she's get a little encouragement during what seems to be a pretty frustrating time for her family. But, feel free to carry on and have the last word or whatever.


I think you did exactly what you needed to do - make sure your girl was safe. That's all that matters.


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## onebizebee

Innocent or not a child was alone in a restroom with a man. That should be sending off warning flags in every parent reading her post. You never give the benefit of doubt in a situation like that EVER. It takes seconds for a sexual assault to happen. Cops would have been called after my child was safe. Not before. They take to long to get there in time. You did the right thing gibbsgirl. 

As for you men making this out to be innocent mistake. UNKNOWN MAN ALONE IN PUBLIC or PRIVATE BATHROOM WITH CHILD IS NEVER OK. EVER. Shame on all of you. Better to have the cops called on an innocent man who made an honest error. Let him explain himself to the cops. EDITING TO ADD we are speaking about a man entering a woman's restroom after a girl entered it. Since we seem to have to clarify these things for certain members.


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## Agriculture

So what's a guy to do when he's in a public restroom and a child enters, run out mid duty since as you say an "UNKNOWN MAN ALONE IN PUBLIC or PRIVATE BATHROOM WITH CHILD IS NEVER OK. EVER."
Like THAT wouldn't raise any (unfounded) suspicions.


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## Bearfootfarm

> As for you men making this out to be innocent mistake. UNKNOWN MAN ALONE IN PUBLIC or PRIVATE BATHROOM WITH CHILD IS NEVER OK. EVER. Shame on all of you. Better to have the cops called on an innocent man who made an honest error. Let him explain himself to the cops.


There seems to be nothing that needed explaining, since he had no contact with the girl at all. There's no proof he even knew she was there.


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## AmericanStand

I keep forgetting that all men have evil designs on kids and must never be allowed to forget it. 
GG I think you did the right thing. Absolutely. 
It's your conclusions I disagree with. 
Even with being the axis of evil and all we still make mistakes. 

Once when three women walked in on me in the MENs room I still walked out twice more to check the sign. 
Lol not every woman reads English , perhaps not all men do either ?


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## Trixie

It could very well have been innocent - but I agree - it isn't a chance you can take.


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## AmericanStand

Bad news folks in most places it's convention not law that keeps the genders out of each other's bathrooms.


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## Trixie

AmericanStand said:


> Bad news folks in most places it's convention not law that keeps the genders out of each other's bathrooms.


That's a given - that's why the exception, especially where children are concerned, should be cause for worry.

I'm not one that thinks all men are predators - and that a mistake is anything but a mistake - or need - but you do have to be careful these days.

Always err on the side of caution ---


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## Oxankle

I'm with Bearfoot; A pedophile would most likely work alone. Further, there would be no reason for a pedophile to enter a stall---the perp would most likely want to grab the child and run. 

Was the fellow's auto so close that he could grab and run? How likely was it that he could grab a girl and get her to his accomplice's auto without anyone hearing the screams? 

A mother is always right to take precautions against danger, but many alarms are just imagination. Still it is better to be overly cautious than sorry afterward. My guess is that the poor fellow was terribly embarrassed and wanted out of there as soon as possible. 

Now that women are invading the men's bathrooms at sporting events I am a little reluctant to use the facilities. Some of these women are really groady, not at all the kind you'd want sitting next to you. In Japan I had to stay for a night where the barracks had lady barbers in the latrine on one end of the building. I used the facilities on the opposite end. Call me shy.


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## thestartupman

Sad part is, with the new marriage laws, and gender identity, a person can already choose what restroom they choose to use. Any pervert can cry discrimination if not allowed to use the restroom of their choosing.


----------



## gibbsgirl

AmericanStand said:


> I keep forgetting that all men have evil designs on kids and must never be allowed to forget it.
> GG I think you did the right thing. Absolutely.
> It's your conclusions I disagree with.
> Even with being the axis of evil and all we still make mistakes.
> 
> Once when three women walked in on me in the MENs room I still walked out twice more to check the sign.
> Lol not every woman reads English , perhaps not all men do either ?


I didn't mean to imply all men have evil designs at all. It could very well be that the guy had no mal intentions. That's not my suspicions in the park incident at all. Kidnapping actually seemed less likely than a predator looking to molest a child from that event honestly.

A couple of people parked in a ratty old car near dusk that are not participating on any typical upstanding park activities is sometimes indicative of people doing drugs. At least that was not unusual in that area (so glad we moved away from there finally).

But, what I saw was a young man (20 something yr old)parked 10-15 yards from a bathroom shack see a young (about 8 yr old) girl walk about 80 or so yards unaccompanied to a restroom. He got out of the car and walked with what seemed like purpose directly behind her and enter the same bathroom shortly after the door shut behind her.

Now, even if she had mistakenly entered the wrong bathroom, which happens occassionally with young unescorted children, a reasonable man would not have followed her in. Normally men would wait outside, or ask a mother within earshot to fetch the errant children out of the wrong restrooms on their behalf. That actually happened occassionally there because some people really did not "manage" their children at all if they even stayed at the park.

But, she didn't enter the wrong restroom. And, he was laser focused on her from what I saw with where he was looking.

What he missed was that, her mother was watching her every step, because I wanted to be sure she got there safely and back without me since I was in the concession stand running the cash register.

I yelled the whole way that I ran until the last few steps. With the wind that blew out there regularly, I have no idea when or how much he heard me. But, he seemed to be positioned perfectly on the stall right next to hers for when she exited her stall.

He said nothing. I was in there with him and her for what felt like an eternity, but in reality was probably 20-30 seconds. As soon as she unlocked the stall door, I grabbed her and we took off. For all I know i t was enough that I startled him, or perhaps even he was concerned that I was not the largest most intimidating adult he was about to face. 

A "normal" person would have possibly recognized the bathroom had no urinals as is typical in male restrooms. A normal person would probably even have spoken up and apologized for the intrusion once he heard a mother and little girl speaking to each other in the restroom he had entered. He did not say a word.

A pedophile is much more likely to shy away from any confrontation with either adults or even a child who verbally or otherwise expresses resistance to their advances. They are also much more likely to spend time where there are children and to patiently wait for opportunities to approach unattended children in isolated situations.

I had limited information about the vehicle and license plate and perfect descriptions of the guys, but the cops got it that night. Remember, I knew that guy wasn't alone, so that didn't stop to turn around and check that car out until I got her and I back much closer to the concession stand.

My husband was also very close by, and since the car took off and all the buildings were open and I was responsible for closing the park that night, yes my first thought was to get her dad to us quickly. I was also very rattled and her dad and grandfather showing up quickly helped keep her and our kids calm and relaxed. And, that was good because the boys had no idea what was happening, and she for all intents and purposes didn't either. It wouldn't automatically occur to most kids that they may have been in danger, that's why many just don't realize predators will do them harm until its too late.

Like you said earlier in another thread, written communication here has it's limits, and sometimes we are all not perfect in our communications with others. I actually wasn't going to bother trying to further elaborate on that incident, because I really want onebizebee to be able to keep this thread as a place to update us on her problem. But, your comment on the other thread, made me want to extend the explanation to you here, to reassure you that I was in no way attempting to let that story paint all unknown men with a brush that inspires suspicion, since you made that comment earler here.

Lots of guys are wonderful, and there were some outstanding ones that really stepped forward after that to be sure that no women and children from our ball club spent anytime alone at that park for the remainder of that season. And, these guys already were putting in a ridiculous amount of hours there on top of working full-time jobs.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> But, she didn't enter the wrong restroom. And, he was laser focused on her from what I saw with where he was looking.


You ASSUMED he was watching her, when in reality you have no idea what he was looking at.

I still think you overreacted


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> You ASSUMED he was watching her, when in reality you have no idea what he was looking at.
> 
> I still think you overreacted


Yes thank you, I thought it was obvious that was my assumption when I stated 'from what I saw'.

What pray tell, would you have done differently in that situation? I would imagine perhaps you must have a thought of what would have been a more appropriate response in this situation.

Care to share? Who knows, maybe I'd even agree or it may help another reader in the future.

From what I can see, I made sure my kid was safe, helped cooperate with the cops and other league officials who felt we needed to step up our vigilance, and caused no harm to a person who possibly was not intending any harm m to my child, even though it there were what I, league personnel and the cops felt were reasons to be alarmed.

So, what would have been an appropriate reaction, rather than an under or over reaction?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> So, what would have been *an appropriate reaction*, rather than an under or over reaction?


Not yelling and screaming for one thing.



> He said nothing. I was in there with him and her for what felt like an eternity, but in reality was probably 20-30 seconds.


Why would he say anything if he went in to use the bathroom?
According to you he had only been in there a few seconds and the entire "incident" was less than one minute.

It's not common to strike up conversations in restrooms with strangers, and if he was in the stall he couldn't see anyone.



> From what I can see, *I made sure my kid was safe,* helped cooperate with the cops and other *league officials who felt we needed to step up our vigilance*, and caused no harm to a person who possibly was not intending any harm m to my child, even though it there were what I, league personnel and the cops felt were reasons to be alarmed.


I suspect you were the only one really "alarmed" and the others were only involved because of you. 

I'm sure they said things like "we need to step up our vigilance" because that's the most logical response, even though it's really just vague rhetoric.

Next time take her to the bathroom if you're that paranoid


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not yelling and screaming for one thing.
> 
> 
> Why would he say anything if he went in to use the bathroom?
> According to you he had only been in there a few seconds and the entire "incident" was less than one minute.
> 
> It's not common to strike up conversations in restrooms with strangers, and if he was in the stall he couldn't see anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect you were the only one really "alarmed" and the others were only involved because of you.
> 
> I'm sure they said things like "we need to step up our vigilance" because that's the most logical response, even though it's really just vague rhetoric.
> 
> Next time take her to the bathroom if you're that paranoid


Interesting. Well, I was perfectly willing to yell in the hope that it might possibly get the attention of the few other adults who I knew there that were out on the diamonds, some of whom were behind digouts and on the other side of the concession stand on the hopes that they might at least hear me since they might n t at all see me. I had no idea what I was running towards. Better safe than sorry.

Yep it was a short incident, and although chatting it up isn't always what goes on in a restroom, since he obviously did not belong in there, it would not be unheard of to at least consider an excuse me, or I beg your pardon as being an appropriate response.

The door was unlatched and partially open. He and I were in full view of each other. Like I said, he wasn't using the facilities, juSt standing in the adjacent stall.

You are feel free to suspect and make all the assumptions you want about why everyone else involved in what action felt the way they did. I'm sure the fact that you weren't actually there or a part of that community absolutely qualifies you to be correct in your hunches according to some.

I guess you missed the fact that saying we needed it be made re vigilent actually was not at all vague rhetoric, since we actually changed what was being done to keep the ball club folks safe.

I'm perfectly satisfied with my parenting supervisory decisions, and have no reason to think that anything I do is at all at a level of paranoia. But, thank you for your concern. If anyone in my real life ever expresses any concern, I'll be sure to pause and reflect. After all, they would have a real life experience with me and mine that would add weight and meaning to their observation.

However, a total stranger online who wants to be critical based entirely on what thwy seem to imagine or assume being the "alternate" "true" version of my accounting of my life experiences just falls short of the mark.

I do thank you for at least being willing to respond with what you felt was the correct response and why. I was curious what you were thinking. And, I am glad to have you share it in your own words at least.


----------



## dizzy

GG, if I had been in your shoes, I would have probably acted the same way. I wonder if the reason you and I feel this way is because we're both mothers that have daughters while those that are saying you over reacted are guys? (At least I'm assuming they're guys. I could be wrong.)


----------



## AmericanStand

GG I think what you DID was fine. 
Till things were over. 
Then I think your conclusions were wrong and led you astray. 
Why were the kids upset ? Because you upset them , I think that was wrong. 
But you are right I wasn't there so my conclusions could be worse than yours.


----------



## Agriculture

dizzy said:


> GG, if I had been in your shoes, I would have probably acted the same way. I wonder if the reason you and I feel this way is because we're both mothers that have daughters while those that are saying you over reacted are guys? (At least I'm assuming they're guys. I could be wrong.)



Mommies with daughters don't have an exclusive monopoly on concern for their children (or "kid" as it were). Some do however allow their emotions to override their intellect at times.

She makes an awful lot of assumptions about what all men think or do, such as watching who goes into the bathroom before them, or question if they are actually in the men's room simply due to the lack of urinals (FYI, not all do). Despite the back peddling and "Ya buts" she still hasn't given any good reasoning to show that it was other than an innocent mistake which she turned into a circus of hysteria. Those poor children to have to be exposed to that, which will only serve to instill paranoia in them. There are much better ways to teach them about safety among strangers. Of course everyone rallied around and changed policies due to one woman's hysteria. Who is going to ever suggest publicly doing less to keep children safe, even if there probably were many in the crowd doing figurative eye rolls thinking about Chicken Little? And now everyone is affected due to one woman's overreaction, giving her the attention that she craves. Some people can't accept correction or direction, but they are usually those who need both. Maybe the other parents should have at least feigned concern when she was screaming the first time, so hopefully that would have given her enough of the attention that she was looking for and that would have been the end of it, rather than having her get it by going to the next step and dragging everyone else into her delusion. I would be more inclined to give the whole situation a little bit more concern if there were even one sensible adult present to corroborate the story.


----------



## MDKatie

onebizebee said:


> As for you men making this out to be innocent mistake. UNKNOWN MAN ALONE IN PUBLIC or PRIVATE BATHROOM WITH CHILD IS NEVER OK. EVER. Shame on all of you. Better to have the cops called on an innocent man who made an honest error. Let him explain himself to the cops.


As a woman this mentality really ticks me off. Since when is it a crime to just be a MALE? Ridiculous. Our country is SAFER today than it was decades ago, and yet society automatically assumes males are automatically sex offenders looking for any opportunity to pounce on an unsuspecting child. For shame! Dads can't even be alone with their kids anymore without fear that someone will suspect they're a molester and try to "save the day." 

Why does society get a weird feeling about dads being alone with daughters? Why does society think only mothers can care for children. What message are we sending to our children and to men? We're telling men that just because they have a penis they're automatically assumed to be evil? 

It's ridiculous to read police reports these days....Police are looking for a man who asked a teen girl for directions. He didn't follow her, he didn't have any further contact. WHY are they looking for him??? Is it a crime to be a man and talk to someone? 

We're teaching our kids that they can't even TALK to strangers, or if a "strange" adult talks to them that they have to run to the police??? We are CRIPPLING our children. They're going to live in fear for what?? Because the media wants us to think everyone out there is evil?

Some of you need to read this blog post, Giving Men the Benefit of the (Predator) Doubt. Or this one, Mistaking My Dad for a Predator Or this one, Greeter at Walmart Calls 911 on Dad


----------



## wr

MDKatie said:


> As a woman this mentality really ticks me off. Since when is it a crime to just be a MALE? Ridiculous. Our country is SAFER today than it was decades ago, and yet society automatically assumes males are automatically sex offenders looking for any opportunity to pounce on an unsuspecting child. For shame! Dads can't even be alone with their kids anymore without fear that someone will suspect they're a molester and try to "save the day."
> 
> Why does society get a weird feeling about dads being alone with daughters? Why does society think only mothers can care for children. What message are we sending to our children and to men? We're telling men that just because they have a penis they're automatically assumed to be evil?
> 
> It's ridiculous to read police reports these days....Police are looking for a man who asked a teen girl for directions. He didn't follow her, he didn't have any further contact. WHY are they looking for him??? Is it a crime to be a man and talk to someone?
> 
> We're teaching our kids that they can't even TALK to strangers, or if a "strange" adult talks to them that they have to run to the police??? We are CRIPPLING our children. They're going to live in fear for what?? Because the media wants us to think everyone out there is evil?
> 
> Some of you need to read this blog post, Giving Men the Benefit of the (Predator) Doubt. Or this one, Mistaking My Dad for a Predator Or this one, Greeter at Walmart Calls 911 on Dad


I read of a situation a few years ago that validates your point. 

A child of early school age had become lost while camping with his parents and as expected, everyone in the campground started searching and calling out the child's name to no avail. 

When the child was located, over 24 hours later, the child indicated that they had actually heard searchers calling his name but he had hidden in the bush when searchers were near him because he was afraid he'd be harmed by a stranger.


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## FarmerKat

I do not get all these attacks on gibsgirl. We were not there. We did not see the guy's demeanor, mannerisms, etc. She did what she felt wss necessary at the moment. End of story. 

I am tired of listening to people put down mothers. Any time we (mothers) express concerns for our children's safety, we are called hystetical, over-protective helicopter moms. I guess everyone would be happier if we left our children to their own devices while we get drunk or high on drugs. It would sure make it easier for those who want to harm kids.


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## gibbsgirl

For what it's worth, I doubt I would have reacted very differently had it been a woman following one of my young sons into the men's bathroom. It was the scene of what was playing out all taken together that seemed not on the up and up.

My husband would have likely responded the same way, as would probably many men. The exception might have been not to yell "hey, stop, you can't go in there, etc" to hopefully get someone else's attention. But, I do find that some men tend to be a little more confident in there size and strength to defend themselves than some women.

I don't feel silly at all for yelling. Causing a scene has repeatedly been found to deter many criminals from continuing on a crime. There were some kids in our town that year who didn't end up yanked off the sidewalk and pulled all the way into the cars that pulled up for the very reason that they made all kinds of noise and put up a fight.

And, I don't get the impression that onebizebee would be reacting much different were she dealing with a woman trespassing and behaving in a like manner outside her home either.

As far as children being fearful of responding to rescue assistance because people are strangers, I don't know for sure if that is generated by the "stranger danger" awareness movements that have taken hold in recent decades. Perhaps.

But, I have seen many programs put on for children where police and fire personnel show the children what they look like in full gear and openly tell them not to be fearful if they look strange or if they are just strangers to them if they ever encounter them because of a search. 

I've also seen many programs where they encourage children with how to pick strangers to ask for help based on their appearance. Suggestions have been, a person in a uniform, people who are employees with name tags at a business, and even find a mom who has her kids with her. So, my impression was that shying away from responding to strangers, for whatever reason, may not be an uncommon reaction by children.


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## Bearfootfarm

FarmerKat said:


> I do not get all these* attacks on gibsgirl*. We were not there. We did not see the guy's demeanor, mannerisms, etc. She did what she felt wss necessary at the moment. End of story.
> 
> I am tired of listening to people put down mothers. Any time we (mothers) express concerns for our children's safety, we are called hystetical, over-protective helicopter moms. I guess everyone would be happier if we left our children to their own devices while we get drunk or high on drugs. It would sure make it easier for those who want to harm kids.


No one is "attacking" anyone, but *your* OVER reaction is similar to what I picture her over reaction to have been, based on her description of the events.


Gibbsgirl:


> You are feel free to suspect and make all the assumptions you want about *why everyone else involved in what action felt the way they did*. I'm sure the fact that you weren't actually there or a part of that community absolutely qualifies you to be correct in your hunches according to some.


"Everyone else involved" only had your version of things to go by, since you were the only one who saw anything. They responded as much to you as to anything else.

They "felt the way they did" because you were upset

Instead of yelling and screaming, why not use your phone?
I'm pretty sure you had one with you as did 90% of those there


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## onebizebee

Agriculture how very caveman like. We were discussing a little girl alone in a restroom when unknown male adult goes in after her. This should put every parent on alert. It does not matter if the guy is completely innocent or not. He can explain his actions after the child is safe. Heck yea I am a mamma bear when it comes to my kids. Got a problem with that? Too bad it's your problem. If you are comfortable seeing a man follow your girl in to the woman's restroom more power to ya. I will never be ok with that.


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## Patchouli

Gibbsgirl I think you made the right choice too. I wouldn't have yelled but I definitely would have gone straight to the bathroom to see what was going on. There is no reason for an adult male to follow a little girl into a Women's bathroom. Surely everyone can agree with that? If you saw a man follow your young daughter into a bathroom how could you not be concerned? 

We had a case in LR not too long ago of a young girl who was molested by a young man in a restaurant bathroom. It happens. 

http://archive.thv11.com/news/local/story.aspx?stor---=144472&catid=2


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## AmericanStand

Patchouli said:


> There is no reason for an adult male to follow a little girl into a Women's bathroom. Surely every can agree on that ?]



No of course we don't agree. 
There are lots of reasons to follow someone into the bathroom. 
Most boil down to having to go. 

Read the posts above for other takes on the subject.


----------



## Patchouli

AmericanStand said:


> No of course we don't agree.
> There are lots of reasons to follow someone into the bathroom.
> Most boil down to having to go.
> 
> Read the posts above for other takes on the subject.


Really? There is no possible way to make what happened normal. If the guy picked the wrong bathroom on accident why didn't he come right back out? If he was desperate to use the bathroom then why is he lurking in a stall instead of actually using the toilet? 

There is no decent reason for a grown man to follow an 8 yo girl into the WOMEN's restroom except an accident and anyone who picked the wrong bathroom on accident would exit very quickly. I have done it and I turned right around as soon as I saw urinals.


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## wiscto

I keep hoping to see video of flashing lights and sheriffs deputies popping out of the bushes with handcuffs ready to go. And a creeper tripping over his pants right before he gets arrested.


----------



## Agriculture

Patchouli said:


> Really? There is no possible way to make what happened normal.* Then you just haven't been reading. There are plenty of possibilities already mentioned*. If the guy picked the wrong bathroom on accident why didn't he come right back out? *Um, how exactly is he supposed to know, until he sees a woman come in? *If he was desperate to use the bathroom then why is he lurking in a stall instead of actually using the toilet? *Lurking says she. Finishing up and ready to leave says common sense.
> *
> There is no decent reason for a grown man to follow an 8 yo girl into the WOMEN's restroom except an accident and anyone who picked the wrong bathroom on accident would exit very quickly. I have done it and I turned right around as soon as I saw urinals.


So you have a ready made sign that you're in a men's room, some men's rooms. Men don't always have that same luxury.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Patchouli said:


> Really? There is no possible way to make what happened normal. If the guy picked the wrong bathroom on accident why didn't he come right back out? If he was desperate to use the bathroom then why is he lurking in a stall instead of actually using the toilet?
> 
> There is no decent reason for a grown man to follow an 8 yo girl into the WOMEN's restroom except an accident and anyone who picked the wrong bathroom on accident would exit very quickly. I have done it and I turned right around as soon as I saw urinals.


We don't know he was "lurking".

We only know he was there, and had only been there a few seconds, since the entire incident, start to finish, was less than 1 minute.

We don't really know what he saw or why he was there.

All we* know* is he was in a bathroom when some woman came charging in staring at him. That's not conducive to proceeding with one's bodily functions

If he went into the wrong bathroom by mistake, there's no logical reason to think the mistake would become more obvious after going through the door.

Not all restrooms have urinals, and no one would have been visible to him

We've only heard *one side* of a story.


----------



## Agriculture

onebizebee said:


> Agriculture how very caveman like. We were discussing a little girl alone in a restroom when unknown male adult goes in after her. This should put every parent on alert. It does not matter if the guy is completely innocent or not. He can explain his actions after the child is safe. *The child was always safe. The woman made an incorrect assumption. There is a saying about those who assume.* Heck yea I am a mamma bear when it comes to my kids. Got a problem with that? Too bad it's your problem. If you are comfortable seeing a man follow your girl in to the woman's restroom more power to ya. I will never be ok with that.


It may be my or the other guy's problem initially, but after the dust settles I'd love to see it when the right guy gets fed up and slaps a lawsuit on her that would make her head spin. 

There was an incident in the late 1600s in Salem, MA. Many innocent people lost their lives simply because someone overreacted and turned innocent events into something that they weren't. They squawked and yapped loudly enough about it to cover up their own insecurity that others were drawn into their hysteria. Learn the difference between actual danger and fantasy. Learn how to relate in a reasonable manner to others in society, or else stay home where you belong and keep your unfortunate children there, to stay "safe", with you.


----------



## dizzy

MDKatie said:


> As a woman this mentality really ticks me off. Since when is it a crime to just be a MALE? Ridiculous. Our country is SAFER today than it was decades ago, and yet society automatically assumes males are automatically sex offenders looking for any opportunity to pounce on an unsuspecting child. For shame! Dads can't even be alone with their kids anymore without fear that someone will suspect they're a molester and try to "save the day."
> 
> Why does society get a weird feeling about dads being alone with daughters? Why does society think only mothers can care for children. What message are we sending to our children and to men? We're telling men that just because they have a penis they're automatically assumed to be evil?
> 
> It's ridiculous to read police reports these days....Police are looking for a man who asked a teen girl for directions. He didn't follow her, he didn't have any further contact. WHY are they looking for him??? Is it a crime to be a man and talk to someone?
> 
> We're teaching our kids that they can't even TALK to strangers, or if a "strange" adult talks to them that they have to run to the police??? We are CRIPPLING our children. They're going to live in fear for what?? Because the media wants us to think everyone out there is evil?
> 
> Some of you need to read this blog post, Giving Men the Benefit of the (Predator) Doubt. Or this one, Mistaking My Dad for a Predator Or this one, Greeter at Walmart Calls 911 on Dad


The problem is that most parents don't know what to teach their kids. I know when I was a child all I was told was don't talk to strangers and don't take candy from a stranger. But, many children are molested by trusted family members or friends. 

I used to teach karate to children. And part of their training included dealing w/these types of situations. We made rules like, big people don't ask little people for help. We talked about the difference between good secrets and bad secrets. My daughter was my helper during these classes. But even w/everything that she had been taught, I don't know that I would have wanted her alone in the bathroom w/some unknown guy.


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## sustainabilly

There are two things that are amazing here. One is that there are so many adults online who, whether through a total disregard of civility, or through an overinflated sense of their own importance, seem to regard what most would consider trolling, as a normal mode of human interaction. The other, is that there are so many guys out there who seem to take the concept of male chauvinism to such heights -again, probably through the aforementioned sense of overinflated self importance- that they don't realize they're hurting the reps of us guys who just want to grunt...drink a beer... and maybe scratch -in private()- without being automatically labeled as one of of _them_.


----------



## Patchouli

Bearfootfarm said:


> We don't know he was "lurking".
> 
> We only know he was there, and had only been there a few seconds, since the entire incident, start to finish, was less than 1 minute.
> 
> We don't really know what he saw or why he was there.
> 
> All we* know* is he was in a bathroom when some woman came charging in staring at him. That's not conducive to proceeding with one's bodily functions
> 
> If he went into the wrong bathroom by mistake, there's no logical reason to think the mistake would become more obvious after going through the door.
> 
> Not all restrooms have urinals, and no one would have been visible to him
> 
> We've only heard *one side* of a story.


If you are a man going into a multi-user bathroom you will see pretty quick there aren't any urinals. It's not like this was a single person lock the door behind you sort of bathroom. 

But let's give him the benefit of the doubt here and say he missed that fact. Why was he standing in a stall with the door open? I don't know about you but when I am in a hurry I am in and the door slammed and locked behind me. If he just had to go pee why drive all the way into a ball field?


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> If you are a man going into a multi-user bathroom you will see pretty quick there aren't any urinals. It's not like this was a single person lock the door behind you sort of bathroom.
> 
> But let's give him the benefit of the doubt here and say he missed that fact. Why was he standing in a stall with the door open? I don't know about you but when I am in a hurry I am in and the door slammed and locked behind me. If he just had to go pee why drive all the way into a ball field?


I'm with you all the way on this one, but honestly, guys rarely shut the door just to pee.


----------



## sustainabilly

Cornhusker said:


> I'm with you all the way on this one, but honestly, guys rarely shut the door just to pee.


I do. I don't like _anyone_ I don't trust standing behind me in an enclosed space.


----------



## Patchouli

Cornhusker said:


> I'm with you all the way on this one, but honestly, guys rarely shut the door just to pee.


I know but generally a guy in a desperate hurry to pee doesn't bother with a bathroom at all.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Patchouli said:


> If you are a man going into a multi-user bathroom you will see pretty quick *there aren't any urinals.* It's not like this was a single person lock the door behind you sort of bathroom.
> 
> But let's give him the benefit of the doubt here and say he missed that fact. Why was he standing in a stall with the door open? I don't know about you but when I am in a hurry* I am in and the door slammed and locked behind me*.


Again, not all "male" facilities have urinals, so not seeing them isn't some sign from above that you're in the wrong place.

Secondly, since men don't need to undress from the waist down, nor sit to "do their business", it's not imperative to close the door since nothing "vital" will be visible anyway. We're used to not having total privacy in public facilities

From the way it was first described he had only been in there a few seconds, so it's logical that "standing in the stall" is what he would have been doing.



> If he just had to go pee why drive all the way *into a ball field?*


She said he was in his car* in the parking lot*

He could have been there for any number of reasons, just like everyone else, since there was obviously a crowd large enough to justify selling concessions, and several ball games being played at* a public park*



> Shoot, a few years ago, I watched a guy jump out of a car* on the parking *lot at our baseball/neighborhood park and make a beeline to the ladies room, right after my daughter went in alone. *I was working the concession stand.* It was the end of the evening. Only a few folks on a few diamonds


It's *possible* he never saw the girl enter at all.


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## Bearfootfarm

Do post counts go backwards when posts are deleted?


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## AmericanStand

Lol yes we need to know the sequence of events to the second. 
5 seconds or less and he didn't have time to start. 
10 seconds and he heard a woman coming and just had time to put it away
20 seconds and he was confused and thinking over the lack of urinals. 
30 seconds or more and he might have been done


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> Again, not all "male" facilities have urinals, so not seeing them isn't some sign from above that you're in the wrong place.
> 
> Secondly, since men don't need to undress from the waist down, nor sit to "do their business", it's not imperative to close the door since nothing "vital" will be visible anyway. We're used to not having total privacy in public facilities
> 
> From the way it was first described he had only been in there a few seconds, so it's logical that "standing in the stall" is what he would have been doing.
> 
> 
> She said he was in his car* in the parking lot*
> 
> He could have been there for any number of reasons, just like everyone else, since there was obviously a crowd large enough to justify selling concessions, and several ball games being played at* a public park*
> 
> 
> 
> It's *possible* he never saw the girl enter at all.



Highly unlikely he didn't see her.

There were no games being played that day. Just weeknight practices which were mostly done. There were less than 10 people at the park, and the only ones not part of the ball club were the guys in that car.

Concession stands frequently stay open if someone will volunteer to run them whenever a ball club uses its fields. It makes a little extra money here and there, and typically if a kid gets hurt they aren't sent to the bathroom. They're sent to the concession stand where there is ice and first aid equipment.

Funny, how a few simple assumptions you just made there actually twisted the picture of what the reality of what was going on actually was.

I would not have let my girl go off to the bathroom alone in the first place had it been busy and crowded. I wouldn't have had a clear line of sight to watch her and I would have been distracted by selling stuff to lines of people.


----------



## dizzy

I don't know about anyone else, but personally I try to avoid being alone w/a child or w/a member of the opposite sex. (Though in this day and age I might need to start including other women as well!) It's not that I have any evil intentions towards them or that I think they're out to get me, but it protects BOTH of us. That way neither of us can accuse the other of something that didn't happen.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

gibbsgirl said:


> *Highly unlikely he didn't see her.
> *
> There were no games being played that day. Just weeknight practices which were mostly done. There were less than 10 people at the park, and the only ones not part of the ball club were the guys in that car.
> 
> Concession stands frequently stay open if someone will volunteer to run them whenever a ball club uses its fields. It makes a little extra money here and there, and typically if a kid gets hurt they aren't sent to the bathroom. They're sent to the concession stand where there is ice and first aid equipment.
> 
> *Funny, how a few simple assumptions you just made there actually twisted the picture of what the reality of what was going on actually was.*
> 
> I would not have let my girl go off to the bathroom alone in the first place had it been busy and crowded. I wouldn't have had a clear line of sight to watch her and I would have been distracted by selling stuff to lines of people.


I used your own words.
You were "selling concessions", and there were "people playing on more than one field". Both of those imply a crowd.

If there were only 10 people there total, you should have taken her to the bathroom.

I realize you believe it's "unlikely" he didn't see her.
I think you even said he "watched her walk 80 yards alone"

The *truth * is you really don't know what he saw, you just know what you believe.


----------



## Ozarks Tom

How about that! I've had 4 posts deleted today, the first in over 2 years. Believe it or not, I was being much nicer than I wanted.


----------



## Ozarks Tom

Bearfootfarm said:


> *The truth is you really don't know what he saw, you just know what you believe*.


And you know even less, since you weren't there.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> Do post counts go backwards when posts are deleted?


Lol. Lol.

Is that really what you're concerned with?

Your stats?

Not maybe meaningful content being added to a discussion?

Too funny.

I wonder if tricky grama would mind if I nominated this for one of her "post of the day awards"?

Thanks a bunch. This post was great!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

gibbsgirl said:


> Lol. Lol.
> 
> Is that really what you're concerned with?
> 
> Your stats?
> 
> Not maybe meaningful content being added to a discussion?
> 
> Too funny.
> 
> I wonder if tricky grama would mind if I nominated this for one of her "post of the day awards"?
> 
> Thanks a bunch. This post was great!


It was a *joke*. See the  ?

I've added "meaningful content" also.

Again you overreact


----------



## Bearfootfarm

double post


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> It was a *joke*. See the  ?
> 
> I've added "meaningful content" also.


OK. If it was a joke, then my apologies. (I don't often see what happy face people attach to things cause its very tiny on my phone screen. And, I don't usually zoom in on things unless I can't read it or need it enlarged to click on.)


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Ozarks Tom said:


> And you know even less, since you weren't there.


I never claimed to know more

I'm just sure she doesn't *know *what *he *saw or thought because she didn't notice him until he got out of the car "70 to 80 yards away".


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> Again you overreact


Opinions vary. But, thanks for offering your assistance in trying to moderate me to your standards or fling your judgments out to see if anything sticks. I guess maybe you do feel that comment would be of assistance to someone. Must be some practical well meant reason for it, right? Sorry if it's lost on me. But, I suppose that wouldn't come as a total shock.

Well, onebizebee, I hope it's a great safe evening for you and yours. My park incident is in the past. Yours is ongoing, and I imagine that wears on a family after awhile. Hope you're all well, and that very soon you get terrific news about how maybe that troublesome guy got caught by someone else, somewhere else, and he won't likely be able to bother any folks in your neighborhood again. Said another prayer, and asked that yall have an awesome, peace filled weekend, too!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

gibbsgirl said:


> Opinions vary. But, thanks for offering your assistance in trying to moderate me to your standards or fling your judgments out to see if anything sticks. I guess maybe you do feel that comment would be of assistance to someone. Must be some practical well meant reason for it, right? Sorry if it's lost on me. But, I suppose that wouldn't come as a total shock.


LOL 
You're funny

I never tried to "moderate you"

I only told you *what I see*. 

Just don't play the victim card, and don't revert to being the drama queen.


----------



## onebizebee

gibbsgirl said:


> Opinions vary. But, thanks for offering your assistance in trying to moderate me to your standards or fling your judgments out to see if anything sticks. I guess maybe you do feel that comment would be of assistance to someone. Must be some practical well meant reason for it, right? Sorry if it's lost on me. But, I suppose that wouldn't come as a total shock.
> 
> Well, onebizebee, I hope it's a great safe evening for you and yours. My park incident is in the past. Yours is ongoing, and I imagine that wears on a family after awhile. Hope you're all well, and that very soon you get terrific news about how maybe that troublesome guy got caught by someone else, somewhere else, and he won't likely be able to bother any folks in your neighborhood again. Said another prayer, and asked that yall have an awesome, peace filled weekend, too!


Thanks I will update when there is something to report. Peace be with you and yours too! That goes for everyone here I hope all of us have an uneventful evening and weekend!


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## farmrbrown

I know that not everyone has the same senses of awareness, intuition or discernment, but the lengths that some will go to explain away or refute a dangerous situation boggles my mind.
I don't have kids but I have lots of grandchildren, nieces and nephews. They and the adults in my life know for a fact I got their back and am extra vigilant in public places whether it be a family outing or a road trip where we stop at rest areas, etc.
I've seen things turn ugly in a matter of seconds. If you don't understand how a criminal mind works, waiting for just the right opportunity, then by the time you see it happen, your reaction may be too little, too late.

While there are a few public restrooms that may consist of only one commode, the vast majority have at least one urinal in the men's room and obviously, none in the women's.
I've only walked in the wrong one one or twice in my life and IMMEDIATELY realized the mistake and exited in the next few seconds. Even the dumbest of my gender won't be able to con me on that one.

If you want to call the cops after you make sure everyone's safe, that's reasonable to me. To hesitate when your instincts are screaming a warning at you, is a huge mistake, IMO.
And that is based on a lifetime of experience in this fragile world.
Y'all take care.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

gibbsgirl said:


> For what it's worth, I doubt I would have reacted very differently had it been a woman following one of my young sons into the men's bathroom. It was the scene of what was playing out all taken together that seemed not on the up and up.
> 
> My husband would have likely responded the same way, as would probably many men. The exception might have been not to yell "hey, stop, you can't go in there, etc" to hopefully get someone else's attention. But, I do find that some men tend to be a little more confident in there size and strength to defend themselves than some women.
> 
> I don't feel silly at all for yelling. Causing a scene has repeatedly been found to deter many criminals from continuing on a crime. There were some kids in our town that year who didn't end up yanked off the sidewalk and pulled all the way into the cars that pulled up for the very reason that they made all kinds of noise and put up a fight.
> 
> And, I don't get the impression that onebizebee would be reacting much different were she dealing with a woman trespassing and behaving in a like manner outside her home either.
> 
> As far as children being fearful of responding to rescue assistance because people are strangers, I don't know for sure if that is generated by the "stranger danger" awareness movements that have taken hold in recent decades. Perhaps.
> 
> But, I have seen many programs put on for children where police and fire personnel show the children what they look like in full gear and openly tell them not to be fearful if they look strange or if they are just strangers to them if they ever encounter them because of a search.
> 
> I've also seen many programs where they encourage children with how to pick strangers to ask for help based on their appearance. Suggestions have been, a person in a uniform, people who are employees with name tags at a business, and even find a mom who has her kids with her. So, my impression was that shying away from responding to strangers, for whatever reason, may not be an uncommon reaction by children.


My position is I would rather you made a total fool of yourself than to been Mrs Nice person and something bad happened to that child . Only thing different My wife would done is grab a ball bat on the way .

Been my son seen the man and his daughter was in that restroom ,should that man said the wrong answer the Ambulance would been called .:bash:


----------



## Sawmill Jim

onebizebee said:


> Thanks I will update when there is something to report. Peace be with you and yours too! That goes for everyone here I hope all of us have an uneventful evening and weekend!


In the old days thorn bushes were planted under windows or those wild running rose bushes . 

Guy I know once was drinking and decided to give the cops a little foot race, whereupon he fell in the middle of a huge wild rose bush . They yelled for him to come out ,he yelled back for them to come on in and get him . I ask him why , his reason was going in was bad enough but them tromping down part of that big old bush would make it less painful coming out :hysterical:


----------



## kuriakos

Ozarks Tom said:


> And you know even less, since you weren't there.


I'm beginning to think that he was there, judging by how much he has to say about the event. Maybe the guy in the women's restroom with the little girl is in our midst.


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> My position is I would rather you made a total fool of yourself than to been Mrs Nice person and something bad happened to that child . Only thing different My wife would done is grab a ball bat on the way .
> 
> 
> 
> Been my son seen the man and his daughter was in that restroom ,should that man said the wrong answer the Ambulance would been called .:bash:



Sounds like you raised a violent felon you might wanna consider rewording that.


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## Bellyman

Talk about a thread that's taken on a life of it's own... :stars:


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## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> Sounds like you raised a violent felon you might wanna consider rewording that.


One might consider staying out of women s restrooms when little girls are present thus saving them being in the hospital in room 102 and room 103 all in one visit,should they answer wrong when questioned :cowboy:

You sure cast your lot with a lot of unsavory characters every chance you get ,keeping out of women's restrooms might save you some pain


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## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> One might consider staying out of women s restrooms when little girls are present thus saving them being in the hospital in room 102 and room 103 all in one visit,should they answer wrong when questioned :cowboy:
> 
> 
> 
> You sure cast your lot with a lot of unsavory characters every chance you get ,keeping out of women's restrooms might save you some pain



So you think a simple mistake gives you the right to murder someone ? Lol seems like you are a bit unsavory yourself.


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> So you think a simple mistake gives you the right to murder someone ? Lol seems like you are a bit unsavory yourself.


How did you manage to get murder from that?
And insulting a member?
tsk tsk
Lucky you didn't throw an emoticon in there or you might get a stern verbal stompin'


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## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> *How did you manage to get murder from that*?
> And insulting a member?
> tsk tsk
> Lucky you didn't throw an emoticon in there or you might get a stern verbal stompin'


Maybe from this?:



> Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim View Post
> One might consider staying out of women s restrooms when little girls are present thus saving them being in the hospital *in room 102 and room 103* all in one visit,should they answer wrong when questioned


It's tough to be in two rooms at the same time and still be alive.


----------



## dizzy

Not if there's a connecting door.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> So you think a simple mistake gives you the right to murder someone ? Lol seems like you are a bit unsavory yourself.


You are like many here you don't read or understand what you read . Try going over things real sloooow I said if the person didn't ANSWER A FEW QUESTIONS RIGHT . Sorry sir I was in a hurry and didn't look = good answer .What is it to you bud i' ll pee where I want to = wrong answer Might just get knots on your head .

You or anyone else messes with my child you an't never in your short life seen unsavory :cowboy: I would try hard to make Custer's last stand look like a picnic :bandwagon:


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> You are like many here you don't read or understand what you read . Try going over things real sloooow I said if the person didn't ANSWER A FEW QUESTIONS RIGHT . Sorry sir I was in a hurry and didn't look = good answer .What is it to you bud i' ll pee where I want to = wrong answer Might just get knots on your head .
> 
> 
> 
> You or anyone else messes with my child you an't never in your short life seen unsavory :cowboy: I would try hard to make Custer's last stand look like a picnic :bandwagon:



Saw mill I think you are having a bit of comprehension problem your self. 
You don't seem to understand that if someone's made a mistake he may not know how to answer your question or even desire to. 
If you think beating someone to possible death because they don't recognize you as a authority is justifiable. I'd call that unsavory. 
I just hope the poor confused guy doesn't defend himself from your unreasonable attack with deadly force. 

Remember we are not talking about someone messing with your kid , he is just in the wrong bathroom.


----------



## JohnP

Any news?


----------



## Tricky Grama

Agriculture said:


> So what's a guy to do when he's in a public restroom and a child enters, run out mid duty since as you say an "UNKNOWN MAN ALONE IN PUBLIC or PRIVATE BATHROOM WITH CHILD IS NEVER OK. EVER."
> Like THAT wouldn't raise any (unfounded) suspicions.


Wanna tell us how this is like the other scenario?


----------



## ceresone

This dosent have a thing to do with the subject--BUT, Before I went into Drs office the other day, I stopped in the hall to use the restroom. Mens and Womens clearly marked. I opened the door to the Womens--and there set a elderly man! He was clearly upset that I opened the door! He had another man waiting for him in the hall--I went on to Drs office, they came in same office sat there glaring and talking about me. Only thing I wished I had done different, is flipping off the light before saying sorry and closing the door!! Why--because I could!


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## Bearfootfarm

ceresone said:


> This dosent have a thing to do with the subject--BUT, Before I went into Drs office the other day, I stopped in the hall to use the restroom. Mens and Womens clearly marked. I opened the door to the Womens--and there set a elderly man! He was clearly upset that I opened the door! He had another man waiting for him in the hall--I went on to Drs office, they came in same office sat there glaring and talking about me. Only thing I wished I had done different, is flipping off the light before saying sorry and closing the door!! Why--because I could!


Maybe it was a really ugly woman?


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## Bellyman

JohnP said:


> Any news?


Good question, John. I've wondered myself. The way the thread has drifted, I wondered whether the OP would even bother coming back.


----------



## onebizebee

Nothing to report as far as the creeping peeper. Some pasture gates came up missing on my neighbors land across from me out of my cameras range. Other than that nothing. The night is still young.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> Saw mill I think you are having a bit of comprehension problem your self.
> You don't seem to understand that if someone's made a mistake he may not know how to answer your question or even desire to.
> If you think beating someone to possible death because they don't recognize you as a authority is justifiable. I'd call that unsavory.
> I just hope the poor confused guy doesn't defend himself from your unreasonable attack with deadly force.
> 
> Remember we are not talking about someone messing with your kid , he is just in the wrong bathroom.


:hijacked: Well if someone is to stupid to use the right restroom and would rather have a gun fight than answer questions that is fine with me :hobbyhors

As I told a fellow once I got my hand on my gun where is yours :drum:


----------



## Bellyman

onebizebee said:


> Nothing to report as far as the creeping peeper. Some pasture gates came up missing on my neighbors land across from me out of my cameras range. Other than that nothing. The night is still young.


Thanks, onebizebee! Some of us are hoping when the perv finally gets caught, it'll be a rather juicy story!  Heaven knows, this crowd is itching for a good story. LOL!!


----------



## arnie

wonder if you eould set up a trip wire to spray some indliable ink


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> :hijacked: Well if someone is *to stupid* to use the right restroom and would rather have a gun fight than answer questions that is fine with me :hobbyhors
> 
> As I told a fellow once I got my hand on my gun where is yours :drum:


To suggest using deadly force in that situation really isn't funny, even with silly icons.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arnie said:


> wonder if you eould set up a trip wire to spray some indliable ink


It would be very hard to do logistically, and not be considered "dangerous"


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Bearfootfarm said:


> To suggest using deadly force in that situation really isn't funny, even with silly icons.


Keep up a little better the other person suggested someone might on ME for asking questions . I countered with if a person can't read sign on a out house door is that stupid they should go for it . Note I didn't start the gun fight I just want to do my fair amount if a stupid person starts one .:bow::viking:


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> Keep up a little better the other person suggested someone might on ME for asking questions . I countered with if a person can't read sign on a out house door is that stupid they should go for it . Note I didn't start the gun fight I just want to do my fair amount if a stupid person starts one .:bow::viking:



No you said you would beat them to death if you didn't like their answers.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> Keep up a little better the other person suggested someone might on ME for asking questions . I countered with if a person can't read sign on a out house door is that stupid they should go for it . Note I didn't start the gun fight *I just want to do my fair amount* if a stupid person starts one .:bow::viking:


I'm keeping up well enough to know you're the one inciting all the violence, so don't pretend you're suddenly the victim or that it's the other guy acting stupid.

It's no different from those suggesting the OP should just shoot the trespasser, even though that's illegal in most circumstances.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> No you said you would beat them to death if you didn't like their answers.


Your comprehension skills are working overtime again. Or the ones you don't have. Many post back I said I would ask questions and go from there . You proceed to bait and harass because you said some may not want to answer questions . 

Being in the wrong out house when any child is present and not being civil once confronted in this area of the world can result in being on the 6:00 news


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm keeping up well enough to know you're the one inciting all the violence, so don't pretend you're suddenly the victim or that it's the other guy acting stupid.
> 
> It's no different from those suggesting the OP should just shoot the trespasser, even though that's illegal in most circumstances.


No you aren't you like another here reads not what is said but what you want things to say . Are window peepers considered a regular trespasser ,where does one draw the line from trespassing to stalker with intent to break and enter ones house ,threw a child's bedroom window . 

You stay away from my child's window and if you are a male out of my girl child's bathroom and we will get along just fine . People should understand stupid some places isn't a excuse :thumb:


----------



## coolrunnin

Sawmill Jim said:


> :hijacked: Well if someone is to stupid to use the right restroom and would rather have a gun fight than answer questions that is fine with me :hobbyhors
> 
> As I told a fellow once I got my hand on my gun where is yours :drum:


And we wonder why people want to take out 2A rights away!!!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> No you aren't you like another here reads not what is said but what you want things to say . Are window peepers considered a regular trespasser ,where does one draw the line from trespassing to stalker with intent to break and enter ones house ,threw a child's bedroom window .
> 
> You stay away from my child's window and if you are a male out of my girl child's bathroom and we will get along just fine . People should understand *stupid some places isn't a excuse* :thumb:


I've read all you've said. It's all still there.

Peeping in a window or walking into the wrong public rest room don't legally justify a violent response, and like you said, stupid isn't an excuse to disregard the laws.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

coolrunnin said:


> And we wonder why people want to take out 2A rights away!!!


A lot of times it is so they can protect those stupid people that are going places they shouldn't, then refusing to say a simple I made a mistake sorry . Most perverts, thieves lawless want people disarmed


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've read all you've said. It's all still there.
> 
> Peeping in a window or walking into the wrong public rest room don't legally justify a violent response, and like you said, stupid isn't an excuse to disregard the laws.


You handle your window peepers any way you want too .Hug them kiss them I don't care . I'll handle mine in what ever direction they insist they want it to follow :thumb:


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## Oxankle

Posting on a public website that you are willing to kill someone if they do not answer questions they way you want, or that you'd shoot a window peeper, is just asking for a conviction if you are EVER forced to use your weapon. Such comments are suggestive of a person who is trigger-happy. Even "I've got my hand on my gun, where is yours" is indicative of someone threatening gunplay. 

In today's world this is dangerous talk. And reckless.
Ox


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Oxankle said:


> Posting on a public website that you are willing to kill someone if they do not answer questions they way you want, or that you'd shoot a window peeper, is just asking for a conviction if you are EVER forced to use your weapon. Such comments are suggestive of a person who is trigger-happy. Even "I've got my hand on my gun, where is yours" is indicative of someone threatening gunplay.
> 
> In today's world this is dangerous talk. And reckless.
> Ox


Most anyone can take things out of context in today's PC world . My statement

( Even "I've got my hand on my gun, where is yours") was made after a direct threat by a loudmouth punk trying to push a old man around .In the little time I have left no punk ,pervert or anyone is going to run over me or mine for no good reason other than they want to and brag about it without loss of some hide . 

Anyone giving respect gets the same respect . Come to my land and act like a idiot you get treated like a idiot . Simple an;t it . :thumb:


----------



## farmrbrown

Sawmill Jim said:


> You handle your window peepers any way you want too .Hug them kiss them I don't care . I'll handle mine in what ever direction they insist they want it to follow :thumb:




I think the OP has gotten a variety of advice on ways to handle this, and can respect whatever way they choose and hope it works.
I've rarely had any creepers around the house and the the few times it's happened and I heard them, they realized that a man who'll grab his gun before his pants could easily have had his aim in a different place than over their heads.
I'm not one to kill anyone for trespassing and peeping in windows, but scaring some sense into them is a real possibility.:hammer:


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> You handle your window peepers any way you want too .Hug them kiss them I don't care . I'll handle mine in what ever direction they insist they want it to follow :thumb:


I will handle them the way the law allows.

You simply don't want to admit every post you made after GG's tale mentioned some sort of violent response either from you or a family member, and no matter how many silly icons you include, it's both illegal and immature.

That would make your crime worse than anyone who happened to be in the wrong rest room, and a physical attack by you would make it legal for them to kill you in self defense.


----------



## thestartupman

Hmmmm, anyone know a good game cam???????


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## Cornhusker

Sawmill Jim said:


> You handle your window peepers any way you want too .Hug them kiss them I don't care . I'll handle mine in what ever direction they insist they want it to follow :thumb:


Anyone peeking in my window gets what he deserves.
Once seen, it can't be unseen.
Seriously though, what kind of weirdo goes around peeking in windows?
It would give me the creeps.


----------



## Cornhusker

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've read all you've said. It's all still there.
> 
> Peeping in a window or walking into the wrong public rest room don't legally justify a violent response, and like you said, stupid isn't an excuse to disregard the laws.


I think window peeping does justify a violent response.
A good beating for starters.


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> I think window peeping does justify a violent response.
> 
> A good beating for starters.



Why ? If there's something going on you don't want people to see close your curtains. 
A recent encounter With a window peeping drone on the 12th floor of a casino brought home to me the lack of privacy traditional methods can insure.


----------



## Evons hubby

Last I heard peeping in windows is a crime. That makes two... The first would be trespassing with criminal intent... If they want to go for three.... They can help themselves. It may end badly but that's their choice.


----------



## AmericanStand

What about window peeping from public property ?


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Last I heard peeping in windows is a crime. That makes two... The first would be trespassing with criminal intent... If they want to go for three.... They can help themselves. It may end badly but that's their choice.



Why ? It seems off to make a law about where you can look ?
Do we make yard peeping and car peeping laws ?
It would seem like a simple no trespassing law should suffice.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> What about window peeping from public property ?


Not that some would understand the laws already on the books .But there is no law of expectation of privacy from public property . One that leaves their curtains \blinds open would not expect privacy nor be protected from viewing . 

One has the curtains drawn \or blinds down and someone scrapes the frost off the window trying to get a view ,would most likely have trespassed already plus invasion of ones privacy ,possibly stalking laws too. 

Any sane person has no expectation of privacy in any area with public access ,unless provisions are in place to expect privacy . A proper installed privacy fence that would require a ladder to see over would suffice for expectation of privacy .

No trespassing laws don't prevent trespassing ,they just provide a means of penalty for after the fact ,same with privacy laws or stalking laws .

Hope this helps some but others I doubt it will :hammer:


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill in your illustration they would need to Tresspass to window peep so why do you need two laws. ?
I just generally hate unnessasary law.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> What about window peeping from public property ?


They would need some pretty amazing eyes to peek into my windows from public property. In the winter when the leaves are off the trees you can see the peak of my roof from the nearest public property. And that's if you know right where to look.


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## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> Sawmill in your illustration they would need to Tresspass to window peep so why do you need two laws. ?
> I just generally hate unnessasary law.


If the curtains\ blinds are open and the contents of the house is on view to all passers by no harm no foul . 

It is when everything is closed but someone for whatever reason decides to take a closer look ,leaving public or their property the trespass law would be in effect . Example with the fenced yard and a ladder is stood up against it, that in legal terms is a trespass .Still only one law broke then they proceed to climb the ladder to see over then invasion of privacy law can apply or voyeurism laws . So then you just got THREE charges If they go a step farther things can get real interesting ,say they spot your new $1,000 chain saw and proceed to jump down and stealing it . Things could go like this .
Charge one trespass 
Charge two invasion of privacy with intent to commit a felony 
Charge three Felony unlawful taking .

Different intent established by the actor . Actor was no longer just invading ones privacy .So casing the joint without permission ,when one has expectation of privacy is unlawful. 

Now to beat the guy a little more that can't read the label on women restroom door .In the State of Ky and many other states it could fall under the Indecent exposure law KRS 510.148 and a host of other laws . Any Male KNOWINGLY using the wrong POSTED restroom is taking one big chance with their future at the best outcome. One girl child say I saw it or he showed me that guy is going straight to jail . Not learning to read or obey posted signs can lead to a lot of things .As the cop said did that sign say STOP or Slow down ?


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## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> I think window peeping does justify a violent response.
> A good beating for starters.


It can also get you a felony charge
It'd fun to talk tough on the internet, or to your buddies.
Maybe they will go your bail


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## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> If the curtains\ blinds are open and the contents of the house is on view to all passers by no harm no foul .
> 
> It is when everything is closed but someone for whatever reason decides to take a closer look ,leaving public or their property the trespass law would be in effect . Example with the fenced yard and a ladder is stood up against it, that in legal terms is a trespass .Still only one law broke then they proceed to climb the ladder to see over then invasion of privacy law can apply or voyeurism laws . So then you just got THREE charges If they go a step farther things can get real interesting ,say they spot your new $1,000 chain saw and proceed to jump down and stealing it . Things could go like this .
> Charge one trespass
> Charge two invasion of privacy with intent to commit a felony
> Charge three Felony unlawful taking .
> 
> Different intent established by the actor . Actor was no longer just invading ones privacy .So casing the joint without permission ,when one has expectation of privacy is unlawful.
> 
> Now to beat the guy a little more that can't read the label on women restroom door .In the State of Ky and many other states it could fall under the Indecent exposure law KRS 510.148 and a host of other laws . Any Male KNOWINGLY using the wrong POSTED restroom is taking one big chance with their future at the best outcome. One girl child say I saw it or he showed me that guy is going straight to jail . Not learning to read or obey posted signs can lead to a lot of things .As the cop said did that sign say STOP or Slow down ?


There's a lot of fantasy spinning going on in that post, and it's all still overlooking the fact that in most states you can NOT use deadly force against trespassers.

Even "indecent exposure" doesn't give you any right to use physical force, and to keep trying to justify it with all the "coulds" and "maybes" just makes you look foolish.

Stop trying to play internet lawyer and read up on the real laws before you end up doing time yourself for wanting to play macho man


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## Fennick

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's a lot of fantasy spinning going on in that post, and it's all still overlooking the fact that in most states you can NOT use deadly force against trespassers.
> 
> Even "indecent exposure" doesn't give you any right to use physical force, and to keep trying to justify it with all the "coulds" and "maybes" just makes you look foolish.
> 
> Stop trying to play internet lawyer and read up on the real laws before you end up doing time yourself for wanting to play macho man


He never said anything about using deadly force in that post. I thought it was a reasonable post in answer to somebody else's question about invasion of privacy.


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## Sawmill Jim

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's a lot of fantasy spinning going on in that post, and it's all still overlooking the fact that in most states you can NOT use deadly force against trespassers.
> 
> Even "indecent exposure" doesn't give you any right to use physical force, and to keep trying to justify it with all the "coulds" and "maybes" just makes you look foolish.
> 
> Stop trying to play internet lawyer and read up on the real laws before you end up doing time yourself for wanting to play macho man


The entire post was in answer to a direct question that I was ask .You are the one that took it from there to stupid in just a short time .
Are you for real I quoted some of the laws .I never mentioned harm to anyone ,in that entire post .No spinning at all point it out if you can . You can't .
No where in that post was deadly force mentioned ,keep up for once .The one looking foolish is you for not staying with the facts of the post you used in that quote .

For your information I could of gave a KRS for every law I mentioned in that post (Kentucky Revised Statutes or KRS ) I also understand that if one confronts a potential intruder on ones own property you can defend your self .

You wouldn't recognize the real laws if they bit you in the butt much less read them . If I need any advice on Ky laws I can call my son he has a four year degree in Police Administration from a Ky University and worked in the ghettos of some large Ky cites .

Otherwise keep macho man advice for those that don't know the laws or won't look them up .:thumb:


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## Sawmill Jim

Fennick said:


> He never said anything about using deadly force in that post. I thought it was a reasonable post in answer to somebody else's question about invasion of privacy.


Thanks I feel better knowing someone is keeping up :thumb:


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## Agriculture

I've been keeping up, and all I've seen is one or two guys trying to talk sense against a whole lot of BS. I'm getting tired for them, for all of the ignorance that they continue to waste time trying to refute. I don't know how or why they even keep trying. Think and say all you want about anyone simply trespassing on your property and what you would do to them for any behavior other than actually physically assaulting you or yours. You will be in for a big surprise when the cops show up, no mater what laws you want to quote that you dream may protect you and make your actions justified.

And let's not forget in the first place that both situations sound just too fantastical to be true. The supposed peeping Tom especially, but the guy who simple made a mistake and went into the wrong restroom was blown way out of proportion too and turned into something that it wasn't.


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## onebizebee

Agriculture, there is something seriously wrong with you.


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## Ozarks Tom

onebizebee said:


> Agriculture, there is something seriously wrong with you.


Couldn't have said it better.


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## FarmerKat

I just find it mind blowing that so many do no think there is anything wrong with a man masturbating in someone's backyard while looking into their windows (with children in the house). Seriously? I think these actions go WAY beyond trespassing. 

I am glad that the OP and her husband are showing restraint in order to not get themselves in trouble dealing with the creep, but I think it takes a strong person to do that. 

So that leads me to a question ... if the issue is just trespassing, what if this happened in public? Say, a public bus stop. The shelter (3 sided) is full of kids waiting for a bus and a guy shows up every day to masturbate behind the shelter while looking at the kids through the cracks between the boards. Is that okay since it is in public and no trespassing occurred? (This actually happened when I was a kid, it WAS considered a problem and the creep was arrested.)

How is the guy behind the bus stop different from the guy in the OP's backyard?


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## Sawmill Jim

FarmerKat said:


> I just find it mind blowing that so many do no think there is anything wrong with a man masturbating in someone's backyard while looking into their windows (with children in the house). Seriously? I think these actions go WAY beyond trespassing.
> 
> I am glad that the OP and her husband are showing restraint in order to not get themselves in trouble dealing with the creep, but I think it takes a strong person to do that.
> 
> So that leads me to a question ... if the issue is just trespassing, what if this happened in public? Say, a public bus stop. The shelter (3 sided) is full of kids waiting for a bus and a guy shows up every day to masturbate behind the shelter while looking at the kids through the cracks between the boards. Is that okay since it is in public and no trespassing occurred? (This actually happened when I was a kid, it WAS considered a problem and the creep was arrested.)
> 
> How is the guy behind the bus stop different from the guy in the OP's backyard?


This guy was short on restraint .

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUE8fYxjq8[/ame]


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## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> This guy was short on restraint .
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUE8fYxjq8


Yep, and if he doesn't shoot anyone else that molests his son in the next five years his probation will be over.


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## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, and if he doesn't shoot anyone else that molests his son in the next five years his probation will be over.


I got to say that man was a darn good shot. He was smooth only only hit who he wanted and they were moving to boot. :thumb:

I would say that kid is safe from future harm from most any predator .


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## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> I got to say that man was a darn good shot. He was smooth only only hit who he wanted and they were moving to boot. :thumb:
> 
> I would say that kid is safe from future harm from most any predator .


ive seen my brother drop a rabbit on the run at 50 yards firing from the hip. Both brother and rabbit running full tilt.

With the guy in the video I like to think it was a case of very good gun control. No wasted shots, hit exactly what he was shooting at.


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## onebizebee

FarmerKat said:


> I just find it mind blowing that so many do no think there is anything wrong with a man masturbating in someone's backyard while looking into their windows (with children in the house). Seriously? I think these actions go WAY beyond trespassing.
> 
> I am glad that the OP and her husband are showing restraint in order to not get themselves in trouble dealing with the creep, but I think it takes a strong person to do that.
> 
> So that leads me to a question ... if the issue is just trespassing, what if this happened in public? Say, a public bus stop. The shelter (3 sided) is full of kids waiting for a bus and a guy shows up every day to masturbate behind the shelter while looking at the kids through the cracks between the boards. Is that okay since it is in public and no trespassing occurred? (This actually happened when I was a kid, it WAS considered a problem and the creep was arrested.)
> 
> How is the guy behind the bus stop different from the guy in the OP's backyard?


 I know it kind blows my mind as well. I take it very seriously. I am behind on my work. I usually work in the late evening until 10:00 or 11:00 at night when it is coolest. I am a lampworker so my studio is hot with the torch going and the kiln sitting at 1150 degrees. Night time is much more comfortable to work in. My hubby has been gone the last 12 days to Canada. There is no way I was working out there with both my kids at work and him gone. I have all the animals fed and put up by dusk. I will not be out after dark. So I am behind by nearly two weeks. Christmas season is just around the corner. I will be putting in some longer hours to catch back up. So this lone guy is causing a bit more than just emotional worry and distress he is costing me money as well. I am not willing to put my safety at risk.


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## Bearfootfarm

Fennick said:


> He never said anything about using deadly force *in that post*. I thought it was a reasonable post in answer to somebody else's question about invasion of privacy.


That doesn't negate the fact the threat of violence was referred to in all the others, and this was further attempt at rationalization of the "excuses".

None of those scenarios justify any physical response beyond the bare minimum to detain a suspect if needed.

(that will probably trigger some ridiculous juvenile comments on just *how* to detain someone)

I'm only interested in legal options


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## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by FarmerKat View Post
> I just find it mind blowing that *so many do no think there is anything wrong *with a man masturbating in someone's backyard while looking into their windows (with children in the house). Seriously? I think these actions go WAY beyond trespassing.


I don't recall anyone saying it's not "wrong"
It's still just "trespassing" or "indecent exposure" as far as the legal options for a response.

No matter how "gross" you think his actions, they still don't warrant any physical or deadly force, as being advocated by several.

Until he enters the home uninvited, or touches someone with intent to do harm, he cannot be touched.


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## Bellyman

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't recall anyone saying it's not "wrong"
> It's still just "trespassing" or "indecent exposure" as far as the legal options for a response.
> 
> No matter how "gross" you think his actions, they still don't warrant any physical or deadly force, as being advocated by several.
> 
> Until he enters the home uninvited, or touches someone with intent to do harm, he cannot be touched.


I think law enforcement will "touch" him when they come out to arrest him.


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## Sawmill Jim

Bellyman said:


> I think law enforcement will "touch" him when they come out to arrest him.


Tn. also has a citizen arrest statute . It will be found in the TCA code

Where I live the closest law is 30 miles and unless you mention gun and bleeding in the same sentence it might be a day or so before they get here. Or as they told me one time they will be gone before we get there come in an file a report . After I made a few other calls thy did show up later .


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## Bearfootfarm

Bellyman said:


> I think law enforcement will "touch" him when they come out to arrest him.


They have that authority.


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## Bearfootfarm

Sawmill Jim said:


> Tn. also has a citizen arrest statute . It will be found in the TCA code
> 
> Where I live the closest law is 30 miles and unless you mention gun and bleeding in the same sentence it might be a day or so before they get here. Or as they told me one time they will be gone before we get there come in an file a report . After I made a few other calls thy did show up later .


A "citizen's arrest" isn't a license to hurt anyone without justification, and a slow police response is not grounds to assault anyone for trespassing either.


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## Bearfootfarm

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by FarmerKat View Post
> I just find it mind blowing that so many do no think there is anything wrong with a man masturbating in someone's backyard while looking into their windows (with children in the house). Seriously? I think these actions go WAY beyond trespassing.
> 
> I am glad that the OP and her husband are showing restraint in order to not get themselves in trouble dealing with the creep, but I think it takes a strong person to do that.
> 
> So that leads me to a question ... if the issue is just trespassing, what if this happened in public? Say, a public bus stop. The shelter (3 sided) is full of kids waiting for a bus and a guy shows up every day to masturbate behind the shelter while looking at the kids through the cracks between the boards. Is that okay since it is in public and no trespassing occurred? (This actually happened when I was a kid, it WAS considered a problem and the creep was arrested.)
> 
> How is the guy behind the bus stop different from the guy in the OP's backyard?


Technically he is trespassing unless it's all on public property. 

Even then one can be "trespassing" if you have no legitimate business there, but can't be charged with a crime without a warning first.

He's still committing the crime of "indecent exposure" if anyone can see him, and possibly violating laws by "peeping"

None of those things justify a violent response unless he physically harms or threatens someone.

The laws really aren't that complicated to understand, and tend to be quite similar in most states.


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## Sawmill Jim

Bearfootfarm said:


> A "citizen's arrest" isn't a license to hurt anyone without justification, and a slow police response is not grounds to assault anyone for trespassing either.


No kidding Sherlock :thumb:


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## Bearfootfarm

http://www.ehow.com/info_12339847_make-citizens-arrest-tennessee.html


> Use of Force
> Private citizens are permitted to use force in the process of an arrest, but only to the extent that it is necessary because the individual is attempting to flee or otherwise resist.
> 
> You are generally also allowed to use handcuffs or other restraining devices when you believe that the suspect will flee. However, you can only use deadly force in self-defense or if you are defending someone else.
> 
> *If you use more force than is necessary, you may be personally liable for your actions, which may mean that the suspect could press criminal charges or sue you in court.*



http://attorneygeneral.tn.gov/op/2003/op/op18.pdf


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## Fennick

Sawmill Jim said:


> Thanks I feel better knowing someone is keeping up :thumb:


No problem. I do believe in giving credit where credit is due with regard to that post. However, I also agree with BFF that physical or deadly force should not be advocated as it is being advocated by some here. 

Aside from the potential legal problems, it also encourages the potential for a much more dangerous situation for the victims of trespassers, predators and thieves. Criminal perpetrators go about doing those things already pumped up and prepared to meet violence with worse violence. The prospect of violence is part of the thrill and joy for them, many are hoping for the opportunity to commit violence against their victims and they already have their moves all planned out for in the event they are physically confronted. While for victims of the crimes the over-riding emotion is fear for themselves and their families and when frightened, normally gentle people who are unaccustomed to confrontation and violence try to defend themselves through violence they aren't thinking clearly or sensibly, they can panic and make mistakes due to their fear that the criminals wouldn't make. That can end in great tragedy that could have been avoided for the victims who try to do something that they aren't really mentally prepared for. Talking tough is cheap and easy but the reality of walking the talk can be too costly.



FarmerKat said:


> ....... How is the guy behind the bus stop different from the guy in the OP's backyard?


There is no difference between the two guys except for their predictability, the hours and locations they do their peeping, their intended targets and the circumstances that will get them apprehended. 

The guy behind the bus stop will get apprehended in very short order because he is predictable and once his activities on public property are reported every possible effort will be made by both the public and the police working together to get him off the streets as quickly as possible. 

The guy in the OP's back yard has not been apprehended yet and might never be apprehended because he is unpredictable, he does his thing in the dark on private properties, he hasn't been identified and nobody can get close enough to identify him and prove who he is. At present he is just a ghost that nobody knows if and when he will be there again.


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## crispin

I really wish you would stop posting in this thread.




Bearfootfarm said:


> Technically he is trespassing unless it's all on public property.
> 
> Even then one can be "trespassing" if you have no legitimate business there, but can't be charged with a crime without a warning first.
> 
> He's still committing the crime of "indecent exposure" if anyone can see him, and possibly violating laws by "peeping"
> 
> None of those things justify a violent response unless he physically harms or threatens someone.
> 
> The laws really aren't that complicated to understand, and tend to be quite similar in most states.


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## Patchouli

onebizebee said:


> I know it kind blows my mind as well. I take it very seriously. I am behind on my work. I usually work in the late evening until 10:00 or 11:00 at night when it is coolest. I am a lampworker so my studio is hot with the torch going and the kiln sitting at 1150 degrees. Night time is much more comfortable to work in. My hubby has been gone the last 12 days to Canada. There is no way I was working out there with both my kids at work and him gone. I have all the animals fed and put up by dusk. I will not be out after dark. So I am behind by nearly two weeks. Christmas season is just around the corner. I will be putting in some longer hours to catch back up. So this lone guy is causing a bit more than just emotional worry and distress he is costing me money as well. I am not willing to put my safety at risk.


Most people would find fire pretty intimidating.  If you hear him coming just point your torch at him. If he has any dangly bits out just aim for those.


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## Bearfootfarm

crispin said:


> I really wish you would stop posting in this thread.


I wish I was 40 years younger and independently wealthy
Feel free to NOT read anything I post


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## AmericanStand

Heck try independently POOR it's very popular in this forum !


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## Evons hubby

crispin said:


> I really wish you would stop posting in this thread.


"If wishes were horses beggars could ride."

Some famous guy


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## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> "If wishes were horses beggars could ride."
> 
> Some famous guy


And If and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas .:shrug:

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his but on the ground either :bow:

A little free help there YH :surrender:


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## LuLuToo

Isn't that window the one where you pile up the doggie doo? It would be for me! I'm talking some MAJOR doggie doo. Really, people should be careful where they step.

LuLu


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## LuLuToo

Oh, and if you need a good fertilizer, most horse owners would be happy to sell you a truck load of horse manure for your 'garden'. A 'peep' garden, if you will.

LuLu


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## itsb

OP is 5 months old wander how it is going, I just read the first page


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## ceresone

I tried to wander thru most post's--but all i discovered was which voting booth you'all went in. LOL--Rant on...


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## wy_white_wolf

I think I'd be going over the sheriffs head and straight to the state police, district attorney, county commissioners and anyone else that I could grab there ear. If none of them work a call to a local reporter or 2 should do the trick.

WWW


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