# low tech medium scale alfalfa seed harvesting



## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

I have a small (29 acre) farm that will become our homestead in a few years. It's been chemical farmed for the last 40 years, and been treated like a rented mule since my Great Grandfather stopped tilling it (with horses) in the 60's. Yields in the past 5-7 years have been so poor, that the farmers that have tilled it have relied on their crop insurance more often than not. Now that I'm taking it over, I wish to increase the organic matter content to where it can become a viable farm once again. The goal is to be able to use it mainly for good hay in 5 years, with some small grain plots (few acres total small grains) to supplement the feeding of my steers. Note, My steers, and I live 100 miles away from the farm, so steer manure from my steers is not a reasonable option. Eventually, I may wish to become certified organic, but that's not the goal right now. Right now, the goal is to improve the land.


It appears that my best method is to use "green manures". I would like to plant alfalfa, and till it back into the soil, but the seed cost is too much. I know there are other legumes that are cheaper, but before I decide, I had an idea that I'd like to ask about.

Does anyone know, or have an idea of the feasibility of growing and harvesting the seed off a small plot of alfalfa in order to plant the seed the following year? I'm looking for suggested varities, and low tech methods to harvest enough seed to plant 25 acres. I've considered an old Allis Chalmers All-crop combine, but I've also wondered about just cutting, windrowing and picking it up and manually threshing it. Have no clue as to the scope of this project. Looking for any reasonable input. Thanks, Scotty


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2007)

I don't know how to harvest alfalfa seeds, but as an alternative, any kind of legume would make great green manure for getting started. Non-GMO soybeans aren't so expensive.


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

Ladycat, Thanks for the reply. Yes, beans are probably my next best from what I've read. I do have a drill, so it would be do-able. Still, I wonder how they did it way back - before the harvestors were invented. Is it possible that the old ways, with some modern help (tractors, electric motors etc) could meet my needs. Back to work, Scotty


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## james dilley (Mar 21, 2004)

You may want to check up on Buckwheat, It is used for A green manure crop. Even the weeds that are growing will be of some benifit. Try looking up green Manures on line.


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

Do a soil test, alfalfa can be finicky.

I would ask around if anyone is harvesting red clover seed, that seems more common(cheaper) than alfalfa.

"Bin run" soybeans should be fairly cheap, and you could double crop them with rye/vetch.

An old timer here remembered combining alfalfa for seed, they dragged a rope across the patch first to "open" the blossom. :shrug:


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

scotty said:


> Still, I wonder how they did it way back - before the harvestors were invented.


They did it without alfalfa


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

If your plan is to plow the entire crop under, then how about favas and oats, or any kind of bean you can get cheap and maybe rape?


dcross said:


> > Originally Posted by scotty
> > Still, I wonder how they did it way back - before the harvestors were invented.
> 
> 
> They did it without alfalfa


And they didn't do it anywhere near as well.

By the way, where are you located, scotty?


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the replies folks. First off, I'm not a farmer. Yeah, I grew up working on truck and broiler farms, and have cultivated a few beans. Yeah, I've been raising my own beef for 10 years, but that still doesn't make me a farmer. Yeah, I have a few tractors and some other equipment, but .......still not a farmer. So, there are things I obviously don't know about farming.

However, I read quite a bit about farming, and in general have learned how to do many things in life from reading. Funny how most books I read are close to 100 years old.

Reading has told me that alfalfa is the best for green manure, that's why I'm interested in it. However, I also understand it's a tough grow without the right soil characteristics. Apparantly, soy beans are a real good green manure also. This field has had beans unsuccessfully grown for the last 2 seasons. Is it wise to try the same thing (beans) this year as a green manure crop? Was planning on companion planting oats with whatever else, and harvesting the oats as hay, then turning the greeen manure under and replanting more green manure in the fall. Think I'd like to do this two or three years in a row. 

The farm is located on MAryland's Eastern Shore. I live in South Jersey.

Keep the info, comments, suggestions coming. Thanks, Scotty


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2007)

scotty said:


> I read quite a bit about farming, and in general have learned how to do many things in life from reading. Funny how most books I read are close to 100 years old.


 Those are some of the best books!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I am not a farmer, I was a wanna be and it did not work out. So, consider the source!

As a midwesterner, my thoughts immediatly go to clover. It costs perhaps $1 a pound, and you would need perhaps 3 pounds per acre according to google? At any rate, clover is popular here though I have never seen it in a pure stand. Mixed with grass, yes, but not as a pure stand.

Austrian peas require perhaps 30 pounds per acre, and I THINK I paid $7 for a 50 pound sack. That was at a feed store where prices are higher? I planted them in the Fall in my garden, and I got about 1 foot of growth before frost killed it. That way you might get 2 cover crops, Or a crop and a cover crop?

Actually, if I were in your shoes, I would call the extension agent that is affiliated with the local colleges and ask him which legumes do well in your area. Also figure on the transportation costs to get you to your farm: the $60 per acre of alfalfa seed (15 pounds per acre times perhaps $4 a pound) might be much less than the gas needed to take you there and back on a regular basis. 

As for the soybeans doing poorly, the land might be GOOD for soybeans if it were not starved by the tenants! The extension agent would know more than I as I know little about the growing conditions on the East coast.


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

Our farm is planted first in soybeans, then winter wheat then corn. This helps the soil. If you can't harvest, perhaps someone will want to for you with the right equipment.

You can electric fence with portable fencing and move your cows in to eat the fodder at certain times. (or someone's cows, if not yours).

If you aren't going to be there, why not put in crown or hairy vetch and have some beehives on the property? Or even if you are...

Sorry, can't help you with your question on lowtech, but I believe you can find your answer at the soil and health library. Many older organic books there:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/01aglibwelcome.html

Beautiful area you are in. Bought many a melon and tomato there...


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/kfert.htm

I was actually planning on putting in an acre of alfalfa for green manure this year, but I've decided on bin-run soybeans followed by rye/hairy vetch since it's cheap and I can till/cultivate several times this year to help get rid of perrennial weeds/rocks. Keep us posted!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Seems to me like if the alfalfa wasn't plowed under until after the seeds were mature that it would just come back by itself.


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks again for the replies.
I've been reading, reading and reading about how to increase the organic matter in the soil. 

Not that I have the understanding of how all this works, but here's what I know:

1) The field provides lousy yields, and has provided these yields for at least 7 years.

2) It's been rented out with no owner management for 40 years.

3) When My Great Grandfather (Willy) owned and tilled it, it was his main field, and was productive enough for him to raise 3 sons, and build houses for them. He was a farmer, and although his farm was more diverse than most are today, he had no off-farm income. He was a tight old guy, who wouldn't spend a dime he didn't need to. From what I can glean from my grandparents (now in their late 80's), 
Willy would not have bought fertilizer, and would often clean out neighbor's chicken houses for the manure, which was spread on the field. I've discussed with my Grandmother the how and why's of how this field is in the condition it is in. 

4) The ground is naturally sandy. Only once that I know of in the past 10 years or so, and quite possibly much longer, has any additional organic matter been spread on the field. This was a load of chicken house manure about 5 years ago. 

5) Three years ago, pH was low and I struck a deal with a farmer that he could use it if he added lime - no money either way, just bring the pH back up for me. He did add 1T/Acre last year. He didn't add any this year. I've taken over the field and I've just contracted to have a local company spread 1T/Acre of wet lime. The guy's also going to run a soil sample. I'm also going to take independent soil samples.

6) The land is mostly well drained, dries out in the middle of summer, and crops burn up when other fields are still hanging on.

7) I don't really know what I'm doing. My farmer friends and the Gov't all seem to suggest purely chemical means. I eat mostly from what chemical farmers produce (except for my natural beef) and wouldn't for a minute think bad of them for how they make a living...................but I think the way they do it has driven this field to the condition it is in now, and I don't wish to continue in that direction if there's an alternative.

Here's what I think:

1) This field will grow good crops. The major problem is low pH and a lack of organic matter to hold the nutrients and water. There's probably more biological activity happening in this keyboard than in that field.

2) The quickest and cheapest way to improve this is to add green manure and lime. Lime's on the way. Still deciding on which green manure.

3) If I just add lime and fertilizer and plant Orchard grass and a little clover like the extension agent suggests, I 'm afraid I don't have enough organic matter to get a goog stand going. Therefore, I'm thinking about doing at least one green manure crop before I plant the pasture grass. I may very well be wrong about this - it's just my gut talking, not experience. I'm thinking about possibly even two green manure crops this summer, followed by planting the orchard grass and clover mix in the fall ????? 

4) I said I'd like to someday go certified organic. However, I'm in no way opposed to chemical fert to get something started that can become organic matter when turned in. Would rather till (disc) than spray.

Here's what I don't know:

1) Will one or two cheap soybean crops (bin run seed) add enough organic matter to make a difference? I know it won't bring the field back to good returns, but If it works, and a pasture is established, I will have something to clip (returning matter to the field), and maybe take one cutting of hay next year. I plan to start a long term compost program to feed the field, but that's more of a lifestyle than a quick fix on 25 acres of field. Won't make a short term difference. Could make all the difference in the long term.

2) Which green manure will be cost effective enough and still do some real good. I wanted info on growing alfalfa for seed because it's so expensive to just plow under. Also, if I'm going to spend the money on Alfalfa seed, it makes no sense not spending the $$ on the fert to get it going. I don't know if the field's even good enough to support alfalfa. If it wouldn't support a good bean crop the last couple years..............


Terri, Thanks for the suggestions. I've spoken with the extension agent. His first suggestion was grow houses. When I pressed him, he said Orchard grass with a little white clover. Gene Logsdon says clover, clover, clover....


Ladycat, Yep, old books. Can't get enough of them. 

dcross, Thanks , I'll check into the vetch thing. PLanting for an acre is one thing. Planting for 25 can take some money!! 



Mid Tn mama, From what I understand, rotations are very, very important. So, you have enjoyed some of the fruits of the Eastern Shore aka - "the land of pleasant living"? I picked and hauled and loaded more than my fair share of mellons and 'maters as a youngster! Thanks for the link! I don't have fences up yet. There's a Gov't program for cost sharing to plant pasture, put up fences, plant some trees etc... All things I want to do. However, they require me to have had and shown on my Schedule F at least $1000 income from the farm for at least the last 2 years to even submit an application. For me, the cart's before the horse! 

Gotta run. Thanks for all your ideas, still will enjoy hearing more - especially if you think I'm going down the wrong road!

Scotty


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

ladycat said:


> Seems to me like if the alfalfa wasn't plowed under until after the seeds were mature that it would just come back by itself.


Not alfalfa, it has autotoxicity. The existing plants prevent new ones from starting.


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

Scotty, have you considered liming and just letting the weeds be your green manure? Mow/till to prevent them going to seed? There's no cheaper crop to grow


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

dcross, Yes, I have. In fact, last years bean crop was never cut and what there was of it is still there (dried out though). Some grass and weeds are growing in it now. It's been a pretty mild winter so far. I figured I'd let it go as long as possible before discing it up and planting oats and whatever green manure I mix with the oats. Oats will be cut for hay, then turn the g manure under when appropriate. Scotty


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

scotty waht are you calling expesive for alfalfa seed?? there are many varities of alfalafa and they all put nitor back in the soil.ever think of clover...redclover is pretty cheap.it also heads out with alot of seeds and the bees love the stuff and the more you mow it the better it does.you could grow a crop of clover among the "weeds" and bush hog as talke about and let the matter build up.it will work woth all things.a buddy of mine had a special spot we could bget trees to grow on so we plante trees and let it go wild with thistle and such.it took a bit of time but it fixed the problem and the tres are doing good and are putting on the height.also grass has started growing there on its own .you should be able to get clover for less than $2 a pound and you dont need much per acre for a crop.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

First of all scotty, I'd like to thank you for providing good info. It's _so_ much easier to give advice when you have adequate info!



scotty said:


> I've been reading, reading and reading about how to increase the organic matter in the soil.


Absolutely the best way to get good info!



> Not that I have the understanding of how all this works, but here's what I know:
> 
> 1) The field provides lousy yields, and has provided these yields for at least 7 years.
> 
> ...


Good background info. 



> 4) The ground is naturally sandy. Only once that I know of in the past 10 years or so, and quite possibly much longer, has any additional organic matter been spread on the field. This was a load of chicken house manure about 5 years ago.


Sandy soil's a bear. It's tough to keep OM and N levels up in it. My soil is sand/gravel as well.



> 5) Three years ago, pH was low and I struck a deal with a farmer that he could use it if he added lime - no money either way, just bring the pH back up for me. He did add 1T/Acre last year. He didn't add any this year. I've taken over the field and I've just contracted to have a local company spread 1T/Acre of wet lime. The guy's also going to run a soil sample. I'm also going to take independent soil samples.
> 
> 6) The land is mostly well drained, dries out in the middle of summer, and crops burn up when other fields are still hanging on.


What is the pH? I'd stay away from the alfalfa, then, as it doesn't do well in low pH soils. 



> Here's what I think:
> 
> 1) This field will grow good crops. The major problem is low pH and a lack of organic matter to hold the nutrients and water. There's probably more biological activity happening in this keyboard than in that field.
> 
> ...


Sounds like 'what you think' is about spot on. Good job. 



> Here's what I don't know:
> 
> 1) Will one or two cheap soybean crops (bin run seed) add enough organic matter to make a difference? I know it won't bring the field back to good returns, but If it works, and a pasture is established, I will have something to clip (returning matter to the field), and *maybe take one cutting of hay next year*. I plan to start a long term compost program to feed the field, but that's more of a lifestyle than a quick fix on 25 acres of field. Won't make a short term difference. Could make all the difference in the long term.


Taking crops off the field (_any_ plant material) is what got the land _into_ this shape. I'd try to get at least two high carbon crops back on/into the soil before I took anything off. Unless, of course, you're planning on running the hay crop through your cattle, and then returning it to the land.



> 2) Which green manure will be cost effective enough and still do some real good. I wanted info on growing alfalfa for seed because it's so expensive to just plow under.


Dunno. 



> Also, if I'm going to spend the money on Alfalfa seed, it makes no sense not spending the $$ on the fert to get it going. I don't know if the field's even good enough to support alfalfa. If it wouldn't support a good bean crop the last couple years..............


Probably pH related. Have you done any research into low pH tolerant forage/hay crops?

Also, bear in mind that tillage _greatly_ reduces OM. On sandy soils, think *minimum* tillage.


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## seymojo536 (Sep 14, 2004)

Scotty, 

Get thee to the library and check out Malabar Farm, From My Experience: The Pleasures and Miseries of Life on a Farm, Pleasant Valley and The Wealth of the Soil by Louis Bromfield. 

He had the same ideas about improving his land that you have and made all the mistakes anyone could doing it. Of course this was 50 years ago but IMHO he was far ahead of the rest of the farming industry. You will get better advice from him then you will from the monocrop-culture based institutions of higher learning.

My personal take on the pH situation is that maybe the guy did put a ton on to meet the agreement you had but once you get your soil tests back they will show you will need several times that to get the pH in a range that is satisfactory. 

You are spot on with the idea of increasing the oranic matter percentage. It will take several years but hang in there, it will bring the yields back.

Good luck, we'll be interested in hearing how it goes.


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## karsan (Feb 10, 2005)

I am very fond of doing experiments. Not that I have anything of your scale. But it seems like you just want anything to grow, so that it can enrich the soil with organic matter. Nitrogen fixation plants of course gives extra benefits. I would try a lot of variety. Why not sow mixtures of different seeds and try different varieties on some plots? Then you will learn what things will thrive. 

karsan


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks again for the suggestions. I'll check out the book, find more info on carbonaceous crops, and the effects of tilling on organic matter. Gotta run to make a living! Test plots are something I do have planned for the future, but right now I think I have to make the whole place better. Steve L. , your encouragement that I'm heading in the right general direction is appreciated Scotty


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Scotty-

I'm a wanna be farmer & planted 'hairy vetch' as a green manure. So don't yet know how it will do but supposed to be great for N TX. 

Just wanted to say please don't use a NON-organic fertilizer. A great thing to do & pretty cheap is a gallon of liquid molasses per acre-feed grade, you get it at the feed store. Dilute it w/water to streatch over an acre. This brings back the soil microbes that you need.

Go on this great website & check out the library for info. www.dirtdoctor.com

good luck-

Patty


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

http://attra.ncat.org/images/soilmgmt/figure4.jpg

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/soilwater/soil/images/fbe01s09a.jpg


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Go on this great website & check out the library for info. www.dirtdoctor.com


And, for a little balance, you might want to look at this site - http://froebuck.home.texas.net/toppage6.htm

Scotty, I just spent a little time talking with one of the Cornell researchers who has done some work on cover crops. For bio-mass production, he recommends sorghum/Sudex/sudan grass, but doesn't think you'll be able to get a legume to do well in association with it. He'd like to see you go with a grass and clover, maybe coarse fescue and red clover. The clover should cost less than $5/acre. He also recommends more than one growing season. 

Also, birdsfoot trefoil is more acid tolerant than alfalfa, but you won't get as much bio-mass accumulation with it, either. My father has had good luck with trefoil/bromegrass, but he's on a better soil.


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

Steve L. said:


> maybe coarse fescue and red clover. The clover should cost less than $5/acre. He also recommends more than one growing season.



That would be just mowing it down or grazing it off, correct? No plowing it under?


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

dcross said:


> That would be just mowing it down or grazing it off, correct? No plowing it under?


Depends on what you want to do after the 'soil building' stage. On sand, I'd try to not ever mouldboard plow. (Though I'm probably gonna plow down a couple of acres of my own, in a year or two.)


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

dcross said:


> http://attra.ncat.org/images/soilmgmt/figure4.jpg
> 
> http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/soilwater/soil/images/fbe01s09a.jpg


I just looked at those two links, dcross. I didn't realize that I was so smart!! I thought I just making this stuff up!!! :nerd:


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

I have read about the loss of OM from tillage, but don't understand the mechanism through which that occurs. Something I remember from yeara ago about "matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changesd in form". So where does the matter go......certaintly, it doesn't gas off ?????
Scotty


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

scotty said:


> I have read about the loss of OM from tillage, but don't understand the mechanism through which that occurs.


Areation. That's why sand loses OM so fast. When you're making compost, which pile decomposes faster - the one that's turned regularly, or the one that isn't?



> Something I remember from yeara ago about "matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changesd in form". So where does the matter go......certaintly, it doesn't gas off ?????
> Scotty


Yes, it does "gas off". Look up 'carbon cycle'.


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

scotty said:


> "matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changesd in form". So where does the matter go......certaintly, it doesn't gas off ?????
> Scotty



That's the first law of thermodynamics,

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookEner1.html


When you till, you're creating a mixture of plant residue, soil, and air. Essentially a very rapid compost pile.

Much of the carbon is lost to the air(CO2) and can then be taken in by other plants.


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## scotty (Jan 26, 2007)

Well, I'm back. I've spent quite a bit of time on the farm this past month. Fixing tractors, discs, grain drills and yes, even getting to use them. 

Here's what's happened so far:

They finally spread the wet lime at a little greater than 1T/acre. I disced the field (one pass) to try to work it in as well as incorporate last years bad bean crop.. 

The next week they spread regular chem fertilizer and that weekend (and Monday, and Tuesday) I disced the field twice with a spike tooth drag behind the disc to help level the seed bed. Then I drilled oats and orchard grass with a couple pounds /acre of white clover. My drill is an ancient one with high steel wheels - it took some work and fixing to get it to do the job. Thankfully, little brother is a welder and only lives 15 miles from the farm.

Now, three weeks later, the oats are up and looking good at about 6" high. 

I realize my course of action so far isin't the most "organic minded", but it was what I was comfortable with that was likely to yield a reasonable stand of orchard grass. Orchard grass is something I can clip and should increase the OM over time while I work on the big picture plan. The goal is to become "organic" over time. 

The big picture plan is to break up the farm into seven 3.5 acre plots. These plots form the rotatation plan. Grass/legume mixtures will be the predominant crop most of the time on each plot. Other crops/green manures will be rotated in and out of the plots as time, money and reasonable actions allow. 

Next week, I'm going to disc up one plot and plant Reid's yellow dent open pollinated corn. I'll use no herbicides, but will do a preemergent cultivation with a rotary hoe, followed by regular cultivation after the corn is big enough. The plan is to undersow a legume after the last cultivation. My cultivator has provisions (hoses) for adding ammonia while cultivating. I'm going to look into a liquid organic fertilizer to run through the hoses....

Looking for input on this - what legume? I like what I read about hairy vetch, but am a bit concerned about 1) how much this will pull H20 and other nutrients away from the corn, and 2) will this hairy vetch get in the way of my new-to me- one row pull behind corn picker at harvest time? 

This years corn plot may be made into an alfalfa plot next year? Maybe something else?

This late summer/early fall, I'll take another 3.5 acre plot and plant a legume, probably H. vetch, and alow it to over-winter, to be disced in as green manure in the late spring. This will be next years corn plot.


I've done a bit of reading (thanks to you folks for the direction) about OM and tillage. It has been an education, and added some confusion. I understand the effect of tillage in allowing the OM to oxidize. I also understand that up to 10% of the organic material, when tilled in will become organic matter. So mathematicly, we have a build-up and a decay problem occurring at the same. What I don't know is which one is greater - the buildup of OM by tilling in green manures, or the decay of OM increased by the tillage. 

I'm gearing up for the compost program. So far, just trying to establish contacts for raw materials. My ground is high in PO4 from chicken manure. Too high in fact to use more bird doo from a nutrient management perspective (save the bay). Found horse doo has much less PO4. Found a good sized horse farm fairly nearby that has offered me their doo for the hauling. Carbon material will be the easy thing to find. Have to contact municipalities to check out leaves. Tree guys, sawmills etc are also local. A lot to think about to try to do something good, without taking more resources than the benefit provided.

Interested in hearing comments, reflections, concerns, etc.........


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