# refrigeration options??



## windmillacres (Aug 18, 2005)

Does anyone out there use an icebox or other alternative method for refrigeration? I am planning on buying a propane RV undercounter frig for the weekender log cabin we are building off grid. I began to wonder what other ways are there? Our frig quit working in the camper and we started bringing up frozen water jugs in the cooler (lasts four days) and that's what got me thinking about an old small frig with frozen jugs????? Thanks!! Also, saw lots of people on tiny house videos using sawdust composting toilet. leaning toward that now to save water. Thoughts ????? Thanks so much!! Kathie


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

RV refrigerators are usually quite expensive and not very energy efficient.

I know of several RVers that are going with EnergyStar residential refrigerators and boosting their solar to be able to handle the extra load when they're not plugged in.

If all you're doing is refrigeration, it doesn't take that big of a system. And if the RV refrigerator is $1,200 or $1,800 or more, it starts to make sense to look at other options. I don't know what the unit you're looking at costs. I did take a quick look at Sears' website and they have a tiny "cube" size EnergyStar refrigerator for under $150 right now, it's on sale. 

Can't help you with sawdust composting toilets, have never used one.

Good luck!


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## windmillacres (Aug 18, 2005)

Thanks Bellyman, but we will have no AC power, just DC 12 volt. its either propane fridge or cooler with ice! I have been looking at antique ice boxes on Ebay for the past few hours. Can a person build their own I wonder???


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sure, you could build your own icebox.....but my question is: Where are you going to get ice ? You're making yourself about 100% dependent on someone ice to make ice for you, no ?

Even propane is the same....somebody else has to make the propane for you.

Once you put solar in place, you're far less dependent on other folks for your needs.

You can turn a small chest freezer (pick a 5-7cuft model) into a great refrigerator using a exterior thermostat....one that will only use couple hundred watt hours per day. You would have to have 120vAC to run it, but even with an inverter, you'd pay less than an expensive 12v 'off grid' fridge.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> Sure, you could build your own icebox.....but my question is: Where are you going to get ice ? You're making yourself about 100% dependent on someone ice to make ice for you, no ?
> 
> Even propane is the same....somebody else has to make the propane for you.
> 
> ...


I had forgotten about that option, Andy. But it's a good one!

Just outta curiosity, have you done any lookin' into how something like a freezer w/thermostat would compare with a small EnergyStar refrigerator as far as energy usage? I'm sure I could do some pokin' around online but something tells me that you may have already been there / done that.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

TnAndy said:


> Sure, you could build your own icebox.....but my question is: *Where are you going to get ice ?* You're making yourself about 100% dependent on someone ice to make ice for you, no ?
> 
> Even propane is the same....somebody else has to make the propane for you.
> 
> ...


This may sound a little crazy but why not let the seasons do all the work? I remember reading in the Laura Ingalls Wilder book that Almanzo's father used to cut big blocks of ice out of the river and pack them in sawdust to use during the summer. On a smaller scale, why not use the winter (if one lives in an area with winter) to freeze smaller jugs of water and pack them away until spring when they can be used for cooling? It probably wouldn't take up much space, an old pickup truck box could probably hold enough frozen bottles packed in sawdust or wood shavings or whatever one can get to last the summer in a small off grid fridge.

When I clean out the chicken coop or the rabbit colony during the winter I spread the old shavings and straw on top of the snow around the chicken coop so the chickens can have something more comfortable to walk on. When it starts to thaw in the spring I start raking up the layers as they defrost and I can still find snow under there even going into June. Makes me wonder sometimes why we don't use the weather more to our advantage, it might not be as convenient but it's free.


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## spiritbear (Jan 6, 2016)

Why not go with a Sundanzer fridge. They run on 12v and require very little power. One deep cycle battery and 2-300 watts of solar panels will run one. You can get one for around $1100. They also last a long time with very few moving parts. 
The idea of the old ice cellar isn't bad but only can really work in colder regions where nature produces more ice. Remember Laura Ingalls lived in the Dakotas. 
Composting toilets work great. I've used them a lot. I've you clean them everyday or two at the most they smell very little and after a couple of years you have good manure.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Bellyman said:


> I had forgotten about that option, Andy. But it's a good one!
> 
> Just outta curiosity, have you done any lookin' into how something like a freezer w/thermostat would compare with a small EnergyStar refrigerator as far as energy usage? I'm sure I could do some pokin' around online but something tells me that you may have already been there / done that.


Hard to do a direct comparison, because almost all fridges have a freezer section as well. There IS one category of 'freezerless' refrigerators in the Energy Star list that contains 28 models of different makes. 

https://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-residential-refrigerators/results 

The lowest rated annual energy use is a Danby (Canadian company, we have 3 of their small chest freezers and like them very well) 11cuft model rated at 249kwhrs/yr.

BUT that may not be the lowest use unit IF you compare it on cubic feet....for example, just looking down the list, a 16.6cuft Gallery, for example, rated at 286kwhrs/yr works out to 17.2kwhrs/yr PER cubic foot of storage (286/16.6) whereas the Danby works out to 22.6 PER cuft ! (249/11)....you'd get 50% more storage for less energy use per cuft, and only a slight increase in annual use. So I guess you'd have to figure out how much space you'd need and how much energy you'll willing to devote to it....it ain't a simple question. 

But assume you went with the Danby 11cuft model, 249kwhrs/yr works out to 0.628kwhrs/day.....or 628 watt hours per day.

Using a 7cuft Danby energy star rated chest freezer, ($300, Home Depot/etc) along with a Johnson Controls external thermostat ($60, Amazon/etc), we got a use of around 200 watt hrs per day keeping the freezer at fridge temps (mid-30 degree range). 

I've seen internet claims of 100 watthrs/day, but we were never able to get close to that...but we did put bushel baskets of beans hot from the garden in at a time....so I'm sure the way you USE it makes a difference (number of open/closes, temp of the food, etc)













Comparing that to a 12v Sundazer @ $1100, you'd have $740 to put toward the cost of an inverter to get your 12vDC to 120vAC....the battery bank and panels being nearly the same for either route, AND you'd have 120vAC that you could use for other things if you wanted.

Them's the numbers.....ya'll decide.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

spiritbear said:


> Why not go with a Sundanzer fridge. They run on 12v and require very little power. One deep cycle battery and 2-300 watts of solar panels will run one. You can get one for around $1100. They also last a long time with very few moving parts.
> The idea of the old ice cellar isn't bad but only can really work in colder regions where nature produces more ice. Remember Laura Ingalls lived in the Dakotas.
> Composting toilets work great. I've used them a lot. I've you clean them everyday or two at the most they smell very little and after a couple of years you have good manure.


Yup, ice storage would only work in areas with winter. The OP lives in Iowa so I'm not sure what they get for winter. Almanzo's family lived in New York State, if I recall correctly, so they would get good winters.

I might try it, actually. If I can find an old fridge or freezer that doesn't work I can figure out what size of ice blocks would fit nicely inside allowing for room for perishables then find the appropriate size container and start freezing ice in multiple containers. We have a few more weeks of winter here. I have an old parts pickup truck outside so I can use the box to store them in packed in shavings or something. Might be a nice low cost experiment. If I can keep the shavings relatively dry I might even be able to use them in the chicken coop as bedding as I dig the blocks out during the summer. If not, they'll make great compost or mulch.


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## DaveNay (Nov 25, 2012)

Truckinguy said:


> If I can find an old fridge or freezer that doesn't work I can figure out what size of ice blocks would fit nicely inside allowing for room for perishables then find the appropriate size container and start freezing ice in multiple containers. We have a few more weeks of winter here. I have an old parts pickup truck outside so I can use the box to store them in packed in shavings or something. Might be a nice low cost experiment. If I can keep the shavings relatively dry I might even be able to use them in the chicken coop as bedding as I dig the blocks out during the summer. If not, they'll make great compost or mulch.


You could probably just build a "super-insulated" cabinet using plywood and 4" rigid foam insulation. If you build it in the style of a chest freezer, it would be much more efficient than a upright refrigerator.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

DaveNay said:


> You could probably just build a "super-insulated" cabinet using plywood and 4" rigid foam insulation. If you build it in the style of a chest freezer, it would be much more efficient than a upright refrigerator.


Yes, it would also allow me to build it as big as I felt I needed it to be. However, if I found a non working fridge or freezer for free it would save the money of materials and I could always lay a non working upright fridge on it's back in the chest freezer style. 

I would have to allow for the water to run off as the ice melted but if I was able to collect it as it melted it would make a slow but steady supply of water for the garden during a dry spell.


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## windmillacres (Aug 18, 2005)

Ok, thanks guys! I mentioned in my original post that this is a WEEKEND off grid cabin, not a full time residence. So on average, when its done , we are talking 2-3 days stay and maybe an occasional week of vacation time. The frozen jugs that ive been doing (in a cooler since my RV frig quit working) come from my own chest freezer at home. It runs full time at home with all my other food frozen in it. So obviously if I wanted to do an icebox I would need to dedicate more space in the freezer for jugs, ice cream buckets, whatever I would freeze solid to bring up there. I think the only thing stopping me is the pain of hauling an extra big cooler full of frozen jugs up to cabin every weekend. In the winter we could just have the containers on the front porch to stay frozen.

I do not want to run a frig off of 12 V because our solar system is going very small. Enough just to run a few lights and a 12v water pump. Our water will be rainwater so I really leaning towards the sawdust toilet to save water. It will be enclosed in a barnboard decorative box to match everything else. 

The ideas about the converting freezer to frig are very good and I have read sabout that before amongst homesteaders. But I have very limited space in this cabin and please forgive me, but I am woman who is "decorator conscious" and I feel that would look pretty "*******". I realize there are different applications for different situations. 

The propane RV frig would only be about 4 cubic ft. and undercounter. I am looking at models between 700-800 $. I still think that is too high hence my wondering about the icebox idea.


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## windmillacres (Aug 18, 2005)

Also, I may have failed to mention our homestead here in Iowa runs off 5.76 KW grid tied solar with 8 batteries backup. My homesteading is primarily here and these questions are for our weekend log cabin we are building in Wisconsin 2 hrs. away. I want to incorporate more off grid options up there and eventually homestead it too with fruit trees, berries, garden, etc. So I am kinda new to this completely off grid applications like 12V DC system, composting toilet and rainwater ideas. But I am willing to learn!!!!! 

ps.... inverters are expensive in my experience. ours cost $6000 for our family sized system here at home. So we want to avoid AC power and it lowers property taxes when we have no well, and no AC power. I mean, for a cabin I don't think you really need it. Charge cell phones with a portable solar charger. Living in a camper while up there has taught us how to live DC for the last two years. We want this cabin to be very low cost, recycled, etc.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

One option not talked about is the "icyball." If you plans are to use an ice chest I think this would be the way to go. They can be powered by almost any thermal source. 

WWW


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## windmillacres (Aug 18, 2005)

Truckinguy said:


> This may sound a little crazy but why not let the seasons do all the work? I remember reading in the Laura Ingalls Wilder book that Almanzo's father used to cut big blocks of ice out of the river and pack them in sawdust to use during the summer. On a smaller scale, why not use the winter (if one lives in an area with winter) to freeze smaller jugs of water and pack them away until spring when they can be used for cooling? It probably wouldn't take up much space, an old pickup truck box could probably hold enough frozen bottles packed in sawdust or wood shavings or whatever one can get to last the summer in a small off grid fridge.
> 
> YES truckinguy, im thinking that a homemade ice box would work! It does sound crazy, TO NON HOMESTEADERS! we have to learn how to think outside the box that our society has put us into. I watched a YouTube Video from Boss of the Swamp about his "ice cooler" and its BEAUTIFUL! and it works! Now this is really crazy but what if I built one at home too?


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## mike554 (Jun 9, 2012)

Just for general info my wife and I saw a refrigerator in Lowes that only used something like 2 amps which is the lowest I have seen. I think it was an LG.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

windmillacres said:


> Truckinguy said:
> 
> 
> > This may sound a little crazy but why not let the seasons do all the work? I remember reading in the Laura Ingalls Wilder book that Almanzo's father used to cut big blocks of ice out of the river and pack them in sawdust to use during the summer. On a smaller scale, why not use the winter (if one lives in an area with winter) to freeze smaller jugs of water and pack them away until spring when they can be used for cooling? It probably wouldn't take up much space, an old pickup truck box could probably hold enough frozen bottles packed in sawdust or wood shavings or whatever one can get to last the summer in a small off grid fridge.
> ...


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

I have a Danby "Apartment Sized" fridge (previous version) similar to this one Danby Designer 10 cu. ft. Apartment Size Refrigerator for 2-1/2 years now. Works really well, super quiet and kilowatt metre agrees with less than 300Kwh per year. I bought it for $425 from Costco including 2 year extended warranty. Danby also makes Fridge only units as well as bottom freezer units in the "Apartment Size" category.

RV Fridge: Check out craigslist, kijiji etc, used Trailer/RV Dealers as well. There are a lot of used RV fridges out there and it shouldn't be too hard to find a good Dometic or similar brand that runs on propane & electric. Most of them with electric are 120V and rely on the camper's inverter BUT there are 12V models out there.

Conversion / Custom Build.
You may be able to convert an old fridge or freezer with a 12/24V kit or even build your own ice-chest / fridge which you can hyper insulate using a "kit". On that note, I've seen old furniture (stand up wardrobe) converted to a fridge, you would never know it till you pulled open a door and it was perfect for the home that it was in.... modernity without impinging on the heritage of the place. I dunno much about the kits that do this but see them advertised around the $1,000 mark on ebay & amazon. Bay Marine Supply  sells some Refrigeration Kits but the pricing is a tad much I think.


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## AgrarianDr (Mar 25, 2011)

windmillacres said:


> Does anyone out there use an icebox or other alternative method for refrigeration? I am planning on buying a propane RV undercounter frig for the weekender log cabin we are building off grid. I began to wonder what other ways are there? Our frig quit working in the camper and we started bringing up frozen water jugs in the cooler (lasts four days) and that's what got me thinking about an old small frig with frozen jugs????? Thanks!! Also, saw lots of people on tiny house videos using sawdust composting toilet. leaning toward that now to save water. Thoughts ????? Thanks so much!! Kathie


First, the easy one: YES, sawdust/compost toilets work, typically do not smell and would be easy to manage for a "weekender".

As to refrigeration, for a "weekender", despite some really good advice so far, the reality is that unless you have deep pockets there is going to be a point of diminishing returns for you. 
My vote would be either keep doing what you are doing with the frozen jugs, or just buy $4-5 of ice on the way there. My answer would be very different if you were spending more than a couple days there at a time, but with rare exception, you are not.

I recognize this may be more work than what you care to put into this, but as an aside: 
You are in Wisconsin. It's cold there! Here is a little history lesson about one of the suggestions made by another poster about an ice cellar that may put that in perspective.

I have a letter (not the ACTUAL letter mind you) from Thomas Jefferson (when he was living in Virginia) to a man in Philadelphia. The 2 of them were debating the merits of their personal ICE HOUSES. Jefferson could not figure out why his ice would only last through July when the other mans ice would last through SEPTEMBER.
Bottom line ( I want to say the other guys name he was writing to was Maytag, seriously) was that the man in Philly had insulated his ice house with sawdust, and that literally made all the difference.

https://janeaustensworld.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/befunky_ice-house.jpg

Yes, they really had ice in late summer, even back the late 1700s, and yes it really was as simple as digging a deep hole, a chamber like a root cellar, insulate the walls, leave blocks of water outside during those lovely Wisconsin winters (I'm so sorry) and them throw the frozen blocks into the Ice House and seal up tight.

My guess, is that if you ever did that, especially in a shaded area, you might need to actually buy ice sometime around October

Funny, that is how Southland (who owns the 7-11 convenience stores) got their start - providing ice in the middle of summer, even in the deep south


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Going back in time, I know of two methods that seemed to work well, of course a lot depends on the terrain and the weather.
The one mentioned already is a cave dug into a hillside that stays cool and use as an ice box.
The other method in warmer climates is the old "spring house".
A shed built over a cool, spring-fed creek or to make it easier, a little man made channel or canal, and keep your stuff cool inside the spring house.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Bellyman said:


> windmillacres said:
> 
> 
> > Certainly a valid idea but I think you might want a little more ice than what you'd manage to preserve in the back of a pickup truck.
> ...


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