# :) Women are not taking it any more



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

https://video.dailymail.co.uk/video...57851911/1024x576_MP4_5997726030057851911.mp4

The man ended up going to jail.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I don’t understand the title. 
As far as I know women have never put up with that sorta thing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Good for her! Hopefully he better understands consent now. I read he was arrested in front of his wife and kids too.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Bet he doesn't do that again


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Good for her. To bad she didn't follow up the act of throwing him down with a swift kick to the jewels to make sure she got her point across.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Good take down!!! No touching unless ya want to get touched back, hard!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

That outfit should garner tips.

She looked very fit.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

Mess with bull, get the horns


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

The only thing I see wrong with that response is that she didn't follow up by hitting him with a chair.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you think the same things would have happened if she was a man ?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you think the same things would have happened if she was a man ?


I am guessing it would have been somewhat different. Less likely to have happened in the first place, and if some guy would have grabbed my rear, I would have beaten him until I got tired.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

IndyDave said:


> I am guessing it would have been somewhat different. Less likely to have happened in the first place, and if some guy would have grabbed my rear, I would have beaten him until I got tired.


And you would rest up in jail.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> AmericanStand said: ↑
> Do you think the same things would have happened *if she was a man* ?


We don't know she's not.
You can't go by outward appearances anymore.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Haypoint ?


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## pairofthrees (Apr 28, 2016)

IndyDave said:


> I would have beaten him until I got tired.


Maybe its generational or just the areas where we were raised. I grew up going to a lot of coffee shops in the 90's and I got the occasional unwanted attention from both women and men. Never felt the need to let it devolve into violence because I wasn't as interested as they were.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Good for her. The little swine did not expect a woman to react to his grope and she sure put him in his place. I must admit that my hand (three times) and my fist (once) connecting with the face of the jerk (four different ones) who assaulted me (because it is assault) was immensely satisfying.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You guys make a lot of judgements on a few seconds of tape. 

This could be a lot different than it looks. 
But we have a few seconds of tape so we act like we can make a rational opinion. 
Funny that.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Looks very clear to me. How do you see it as different?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You guys make a lot of judgements on *a few seconds* of tape.


It doesn't take more than that.



AmericanStand said:


> This could be a lot different than it looks.


No, it really couldn't.



AmericanStand said:


> But we have a few seconds of tape so we act like *we can make a rational opinion*.


Rational people can.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It doesn't take more than that.
> 
> 
> No, it really couldn't.
> ...


Hallelujah, something I can agree with you on.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

miggyb said:


> Hallelujah, something I can agree with you on.


Mark it on your calendar


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

pairofthrees said:


> Maybe its generational or just the areas where we were raised. I grew up going to a lot of coffee shops in the 90's and I got the occasional unwanted attention from both women and men. Never felt the need to let it devolve into violence because I wasn't as interested as they were.


Attention is one thing. Failure of others to keep their hands to themselves is another matter.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> You guys make a lot of judgements on a few seconds of tape.
> 
> This could be a lot different than it looks.
> But we have a few seconds of tape so we act like we can make a rational opinion.
> Funny that.


Your probably right. I bet she had a rare earth magnet in her back pocket and in turn he had on an iron wedding ring. 

Did we watch the same video?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Fair enough the man goes to jail for assaulting the women. Wonder if she did also? She certainly was not defending herself, she had to chase the guy down. (Not that I blame her) 
Few years ago the thought would have never occurred to me. With the current times and all the legal stuff it does come to mind now.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> I bet she had a rare earth magnet in her back pocket


I was feeling the attraction.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Fair enough the man goes to jail for assaulting the women. Wonder if she did also? She certainly was not defending herself, she had to chase the guy down. (Not that I blame her)
> Few years ago the thought would have never occurred to me. With the current times and all the legal stuff it does come to mind now.


You're allowed to make a citizen arrest. Did her shirt grab and following pirouette constitute undo force? I don't think so...the guy landed in a chair.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

The neck / choke move was pretty effective also. Unfortunately the guy just got lucky that the chair happened to be in a convenient place for him to land. Once again I do not blame her.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> The neck / choke move was pretty effective also. Unfortunately the guy just got lucky that the chair* happened to be in a convenient place *for him to land. Once again I do not blame her.


That was my thought too. He may ought to go home and watch re-runs of *Enough* with J-Lo in it. Maybe he'll get the idea.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> That was my thought too. He may ought to go home and watch re-runs of *Enough* with J-Lo in it. Maybe he'll get the idea.


Good movie.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you think the same things would have happened if she was a man ?


I was wondering the same. Had it happen. the only time I came unglued it was a Guy.

big rockpile


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

big rockpile said:


> I was wondering the same. Had it happen. the only time I came unglued it was a Guy.
> 
> big rockpile


I am sure if he pressed charges the result may be the same. Although she didnt really hurt him.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

big rockpile said:


> I was wondering the same. Had it happen. the only time I came unglued it was a Guy.
> 
> big rockpile


Unglued? I always called it "getting felt up". Regional dialects, 
I suppose. (Just messing with you,it's Friday!!)


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Fair enough the man goes to jail for assaulting the women. Wonder if she did also? She certainly was not defending herself, she had to chase the guy down. (Not that I blame her)
> Few years ago the thought would have never occurred to me. With the current times and all the legal stuff it does come to mind now.


Ain't video grand? Years ago this might have devolved into a he said, she said type of thing and who knows what would have been the outcome in a courtroom. However, do you really think any judge or jury would convict this woman of anything after seeing this video? They'd probably want to slap him upside the head themselves.


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## blanket (May 28, 2013)

he got less than he deserved


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Your probably right. I bet she had a rare earth magnet in her back pocket and in turn he had on an iron wedding ring.
> 
> Did we watch the same video?


 Yes we watched the same video the context is important. 
What are if five minutes earlier on his way to the bathroom she grabbed him by the crotch? Would that change your opinion of the situation ?
Perhaps they were long time lovers? Perhaps they just had a big fight and he was trying to make up? 

The video is presented as if a random person walking by grab her by the butt. But do we know they don’t have any relationship at all? I find that highly unlikely. 
I’m sure it happens that random strangers walking by each other will grab body parts but I find it very rare.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

He lied to the police about what he did. As soon as they saw the video he was charged. You would be amazed how many men think it is all right to fondle women with out their permission.

I saw a TV show this morning where a group of men were thinking back on all their last 20 years trying to figure out how many times they crossed the line and did not think it was a big deal.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes we watched the same video the context is important.
> What are if five minutes earlier on his way to the bathroom she grabbed him by the crotch? Would that change your opinion of the situation ?
> Perhaps they were long time lovers? Perhaps they just had a big fight and he was trying to make up?
> 
> ...


Yeah, all the "what ifs" COULD change my mind, but I doubt that any of those scenarios are true, based on the facts we do know.

https://www.distractify.com/trendin...tharine-mcphee-waitress-didnt-go-through-this


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> He lied to the police about what he did. As soon as they saw the video he was charged. You would be amazed how many men think it is all right to fondle women with out their permission.
> 
> I saw a TV show this morning where a group of men were thinking back on all their last 20 years trying to figure out how many times they crossed the line and did not think it was a big deal.


Did it say why she wasnt charged ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> The video is presented as if a random person walking by grab her by the butt. But *do we know* they don’t have any relationship at all? I find that highly unlikely.


Yes, some of us know.
Others, not so much.



> I’m sure it happens that random strangers walking by each other will grab body parts but I find it very rare.


Of course it's "rare".
If it was common this wouldn't have been on the news.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Redlands Okie said:


> Fair enough the man goes to jail for assaulting the women. Wonder if she did also? She certainly was not defending herself, she had to chase the guy down. (Not that I blame her)
> Few years ago the thought would have never occurred to me. With the current times and all the legal stuff it does come to mind now.


Why do you feel she was not defending herself and what indication do you have that this man went to jail? The man's original action was assault and I don't understand why she would have no legal right to defend herself, even if she did have to make a few steps to catch up with him. 

Would you that a man were not defending himself if he chased down a man who'd walked up and grabbed his genitals?

Current or past times, there is no legal reason that men have the right to touch, grope or grab women without their consent.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Did it say why she wasnt charged ?


There's no reason why she should be.
She was assaulted, and detained her attacker.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Did it say why she wasnt charged ?


LOL, times are changing women are considered equals in civilized countries.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

no really said:


> women are considered equals in *civilized countries*.


And in the USA too.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Did it say why she wasnt charged ?


Not specifically, other than most of us are aware when you're the victim of an assault and battery (battery is when you touch someone in a bad way) the cops generally sit down with you and take your statement while the perpetrator is either being cuffed or hunted down at that time.
In rare cases where the victim is able to talk to the cops and the assailant is laid out on the ground with multiple gunshot wounds, the question, "Am I going to jail?" has been known to come up, depending on location and circumstances.


In either scenario, it's common knowledge that the victim is going to get the better end of the deal though or at least SHOULD.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah, all the "what ifs" COULD change my mind, but I doubt that any of those scenarios are true, based on the facts we do know.
> 
> https://www.distractify.com/trendin...tharine-mcphee-waitress-didnt-go-through-this


What facts do we know ? There certainly weren’t any in your link.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> He lied to the police about what he did. As soon as they saw the video he was charged. You would be amazed how many men think it is all right to fondle women with out their permission.
> .


 I missed the part where he lied to the police. Although I believe there’s nothing wrong with that.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> What facts do we know ? There certainly weren’t any in your link.


Ooops, I'm sorry.
Can I send you a computer app for the blind?


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Did it say why she wasnt charged ?


If the waitress was charged with a crime, then who is the victim of the crime she is being charged?
This episode involves two people, a waitress who was assaulted while her back was turned and the man who assaulted her.
Your question concerning why she was not charged, suggest to me that in your opinion the man is a victim of the actions of the waitress. I am sure the man who grabbed the waitress from behind would agree with you.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Tobster said:


> If the waitress was charged with a crime, then who is the victim of the crime she is being charged?
> This episode involves two people, a waitress who was assaulted while her back was turned and the man who assaulted her.
> Your question concerning why she was not charged, suggest to me that in your opinion the man is a victim of the actions of the waitress. I am sure the man who grabbed the waitress from behind would agree with you.


 Well it will seem pretty obvious from the video that the man was the victim of a crime if it’s obvious that the woman was a victim of a crime. 
Or do we have special laws now they just allow women to take justice into their own hands ? Is it only men that must obey the law?

The video with the port to show that the woman was assaulted. 
But the man was done and leaving so she did not need to defend herself. In fact as has been pointed out by others she pursued the man and then assaulted him in a greater manner than he did. 
Is it somehow right that because she is a woman she gets to extract revenge instead of calling the police?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I’m sure it happens that random strangers walking by each other will grab body parts but I find it very rare.


Rare? I laughed so hard I snorted tea up my nose. 
What this man did was sexual battery, assault and the behaviour of someone who I would not want anywhere near my family. Parents, partners and everyone else who know him must be so proud.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Men think it is rare.  Women know better.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Well it will seem pretty obvious from the video that the man was the victim of a crime if it’s obvious that the woman was a victim of a crime.





AmericanStand said:


> *What facts do we know ?*


Enough to know she didn't do anything illegal, and enough to know you don't know that.



AmericanStand said:


> Is it somehow right that because she is a woman she gets to extract revenge instead of calling the police?


This was explained once already.
She was assaulted.
She then detained her assailant until police arrived.
She did nothing illegal.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Odd that so many think it is perfectly fine to detain, beat up or even shoot someone who is robbing your house but still question the legality when a similar response is taken due to a physical response to a sexual or physical assault. Especially when it is a woman who is assaulted. If this video had shown a man having his bum groped and then grabbing and throwing down his attacker the responses would be completely different. Time to stop making a gender difference when it comes to assaults, self defense and detaining the criminal. Some of the men in the restaurant who saw what was happening could have helped - and maybe they did after she detained him and it was not shown in the video - but she didn't rally need help.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Men think it is rare.  Women know better.


Absolutely positively true. One in four women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, and the video clearly shows a sexual assault.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I completely understand what you are saying, but the lines between degrees of unwelcome attention seems to be blurred.

Yes, groping. Yes, inappropriate. Yes, actionable.

What I am asking is whether this meets the definition of sexual assault. My understanding was that rape is sexual assault.

I will google legal definitions.

***********
What I found....
The definition of sexual assault varies from state to state.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I completely understand what you are saying, but the lines between degrees of unwelcome attention seems to be blurred.
> 
> Yes, groping. Yes, inappropriate. Yes, actionable.
> 
> ...


I listened to an interview with her. It was sexual assault.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"
'When I felt that happen, my first thought was that it was one of my friends… it was a really intimate touch,' Holden told People.

'His hand went further than it should have so I was thinking, there’s no way a stranger just did that."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oor-groped-Georgia-restaurant-speaks-out.html


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Apparently in Georgia it is assault. Other states may label it differently, using different terminology for the same inappropriate behavior.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I completely understand what you are saying, but the lines between degrees of unwelcome attention seems to be blurred.
> 
> Yes, groping. Yes, inappropriate. Yes, actionable.
> 
> ...


Sexual assault is any non consensual touching in a sexual area. It can range from groping to rape. 

The DOJ defines sexual assault as this: "It’s actually harder to define than you’d think. According to the United States Department of Justice, sexual assault is “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.” Sexual assault is basically an umbrella term that includes sexual activities such as rape, fondling, and attempted rape."

States can also have their own statutes. "However, the legal definition varies depending on which state you’re in, and can even be different depending on where you were when the assault happened, Emily Austin, director of advocacy services for California Coalition Against Sexual Assault, tells SELF. For example, she says, sexual assault on college campuses in California means a sex act that occurred without affirmative consent (which is described as active, voluntary participation), while California criminal law defines rape as nonconsensual sexual intercourse, and other laws govern different forms of sexual assault beyond intercourse. “It’s complex,” she admits.

The definitions can vary because of the way in which our laws are made, explains Rebecca O'Connor, vice president of public policy at the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN), the largest anti-sexual assault organization in the U.S. “On the state level, because nothing is simple, the states have sovereignty over laws, and different legislatures and jurors have crafted different definitions of specific behaviors,” she tells SELF. Some states explicitly define rape or sexual assault and others may not, but fold that behavior under different terminology. “It runs the gamut,” she says, adding that states typically create these definitions with guidance from the Department of Justice. However, the details are crafted on a state level, often based on local cases that set a precedent for how sexual assault is phrased and determined."

From: https://www.self.com/story/sexual-assault-definition

The Merriam Webster definition: "Definition of sexual assault
: illegal sexual contact that usually involves force upon a person without consent or is inflicted upon a person who is incapable of giving consent (as because of age or physical or mental incapacity) or who places the assailant (such as a doctor) in a position of trust or authority

I'm not being rude to you, Alice there will be several posters that doubt my using the term.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yessum. I am not getting hostile. It was a serious question. 

I found the same article. One paragraph calls it all assault. Then later, the article says it varies state by state.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The definition of sexual assault is quite clear and yet it changes within different jurisdiction so it become complex.

According to the United States Department of Justice, sexual assault is “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.” Sexual assault is basically an umbrella term that includes sexual activities such as rape, fondling, and attempted rape.

It would be helpful if there was one clear and definitive definition but this is unlikely due to the different politics, standards and morals of different areas.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Men think it is rare.  Women know better.





Irish Pixie said:


> Absolutely positively true. One in four women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, and the video clearly shows a sexual assault.


Well ladies, unless I've undergone a sex change recently without my knowledge, I'd ask you to consider exceptions to that rule.
I wouldn't be surprised if 1 in 3 was closer to the truth.
Also note that the men dismissing this assault on her are in the minority here.
Just sayin' if you've already won, you can stop fighting.

That doesn't mean to stop fighting for these things, but don't fight your allies too.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Well ladies, unless I've undergone a sex change recently without my knowledge, I'd ask you to consider exceptions to that rule.
> I wouldn't be surprised if 1 in 3 was closer to the truth.
> Also note that the men dismissing this assault on her are in the minority here.
> Just sayin' if you've already won, you can stop fighting.
> ...


No we have won nothing. This woman was assaulted this week. She had the guts to deal with it. Many women are in positions where they can't with out being fired or worse because too many still think this is not a big thing.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

emdeengee said:


> The definition of sexual assault is quite clear and yet it changes within different jurisdiction so it become complex.
> 
> According to the United States Department of Justice, sexual assault is “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.” Sexual assault is basically an umbrella term that includes sexual activities such as rape, fondling, and attempted rape.
> 
> It would be helpful if there was one clear and definitive definition but this is unlikely due to the different politics, standards and morals of different areas.


True.
That's why I have no objection to the person in question rendering HER decision on whether it was and wasn't, and going public with it.
I agree with her 100% - he got what he deserved.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> No we have won nothing. This women was assaulted this week. She had the guts to deal with it. Many women are in positions where they can't with out being fired or worse because too many still think this is not a big thing.


Then I'm totally confused.
If you mean by "haven't won" that all evil hasn't been completely eliminated from this world, then I sympathize with ya, but join the club.
My meaning was that she kicked his little butt, put him in jail and his only good fortune was that he didn't get worse, and most of the men I know would give her a high five.
I don't know how much more of a "victory" you can reasonably expect?

Are there still too many men with the wrong attitude?
Yeah, one is too many, but all we can do for you ladies, is offer a helping hand (or fist) when needed and support you afterwards.
Can I do anything more than that?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Then I'm totally confused.
> If you mean by "haven't won" that all evil hasn't been completely eliminated from this world, then I sympathize with ya, but join the club.
> My meaning was that she kicked his little butt, put him in jail and his only good fortune was that he didn't get worse, and most of the men I know would give her a high five.
> I don't know how much more of a "victory" you can reasonably expect?


How is that a win? It should not have happened in the first place.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> How is that a win? It should not have happened in the first place.


Sigh.
If you expect life to have no battles to fight, I can only offer help in HOW to fight.
That's why I said "reasonable expectation."
I can't change this world ya know.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Sigh.
> If you expect life to have no battles to fight, I can only offer help in HOW to fight.
> I can't change this world ya know.


Let me put it this way. Would she have won if a man raped her and he got caught?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Let me put it this way. Would she have won if a man raped her and he got caught?


Yeah, especially if I caught him.
She might have even gotten a trophy to hang on her bumper, if she wanted one.......


https://www.ebay.com/i/172059073373?chn=ps


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah, especially if I caught him.
> She might have even gotten a trophy to hang on her bumper, if she wanted one.......


You think it is a win to get raped just because the man got punished. I don't.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> You think it is a win to get raped just because the man got punished. I don't.


Then like I said, I can't help you if that's your view of the world.
We all have problems.
Losing is when the problem wins.

I just don't get the animosity towards one that agrees with you 100% that this was wrong and shouldn't happen.

I'll support you if you want him roughed up.
Ditto for arrested.
Castrated, I'll hold him down for ya.
Death penalty? I'll let you decide that one, but I wouldn't stop you.
Will I mentor young men on the right path and teach young women self defense?
Already ahead of ya on that.
Will I be a 24 hour bodyguard too?
I dunno, I'm spread pretty thin already but we can talk about.

But I think I'm as reasonable a man as you'll find on this issue, so what is it you want that I haven't agreed to do?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> I missed the part where he lied to the police. Although I believe there’s nothing wrong with that.


I will concede the point about lying to police being a crime in and of itself if you will go along with it being perfectly legal for the victim or her family, friends, or passing observers to teach the perp an entire new understanding of the word ruthless which he may or may not survive.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> It should not have happened in the first place.


Did anyone say it should?



painterswife said:


> You think it is a win to get raped just because the man got punished. I don't.


That's your fantasy scenario.
With some, the only way to win is to not play their silly games.



> AmericanStand said: ↑
> I missed the part where he lied to the police. Although *I believe there’s* *nothing wrong with that*.


We figured that out long ago.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

I will stand by my position that sexual assault should be an extreme rarity by virtue of the potential perpetrator realizing that if he acts, he will spend the remainder of his life watching over his shoulder for people who know and do not require proof beyond a reasonable doubt or beyond a crooked lawyer.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Polly gets another cracker for another post that *adds nothing to the discussion* at hand but an attempt to put down a poster.


You aren't forced to read nor respond.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

For crying out loud can you two stop bickering. I am not sure whether you both need duct taped or you need locked in a room together until you either work it out or expire fighting.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Absolutely positively true. One in four women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, and the video clearly shows a sexual assault.


 Once in four lifetimes seems pretty rare.
I suspect it is more common than that. 
In fact if we base it on what we saw in this video I would say it is much more common than that among men.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> I'll support you if you want him .....
> Castrated, I'll hold him down for ya.
> Death penalty? I'll let you decide that one, but I wouldn't stop you.


 Ok maybe I’m some sorta radical but those seem a bit much for the what he did. 

By the way to be clear I think what he did was wrong. 
I think what she did was wrong. 
Two wrongs don’t make a right.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Two wrongs don’t make a right.


Perhaps, but two (W)rights make an airplane!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Or a Curtis ....


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Two wrongs don’t make a right.


But three lefts do.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Ok maybe I’m some sorta radical but those seem a bit much for the what he did.
> 
> By the way to be clear I think what he did was wrong.
> I think what she did was wrong.
> Two wrongs don’t make a right.


Well yeah, he just got knocked around a little by her and the cops took over after that.
What you quoted was a deeper discussion with PW about rape, in which I laid every card I had on the table to convince her I wouldn't put up with that stuff either.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Well yeah, he just got knocked around a little by her and the cops took over after that.
> What you quoted was a deeper discussion with PW about rape, in which I laid every card I had on the table to convince her I wouldn't put up with that stuff either.


My discussion was about sexual assault. Rape just happens to be a more severe form. Neither is acceptable and no one wins when it happens even if the perpetrator is punished.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you see sexual assault as something more special than any other assault ?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> My discussion was about sexual assault. Rape just happens to be a more severe form. Neither is acceptable and no one wins when it happens even if the perpetrator is punished.


Perhaps in your focus on the individual's trauma, you've lost sight of what the law does.
Your words....


> no one wins when it happens even if the perpetrator is punished.


I'm sure you aren't suggesting we DON'T punish them, but ask yourself if our society as a whole would "win or lose" if *we didn't?*


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Perhaps in your focus on the individual's trauma, you've lost sight of what the law does.
> Your words....
> 
> I'm sure you aren't suggesting we DON'T punish them, but ask yourself if our society as a whole would "win or lose" if *we didn't?*


A perpetrator losing by being punished does not equate with society winning. Society lost when the act took place.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> A perpetrator losing by being punished does not equate with society winning. Society lost when the act took place.


Exactly.
And what happens if you don't at least try to deter that act with punishment?
Will the rest of society get the idea that it's ok or collectively seek to stop it in the future?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Exactly.
> And what happens if you don't at least try to deter that act with punishment?
> Will the rest of society get the idea that it's ok or collectively seek to stop it in the future?


I have not argued that anyone should not punish to deter the act just that doing so is not a win for anyone especially the victim.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> I have not argued that anyone should not punish to deter the act just that doing so is not a win for anyone especially the victim.


If that's true, then nothing would be lost be ceasing punishment, or have you not considered the possibility that the rape victim could be assaulted multiple times if it weren't for the laws against it?
Is the assurance of punishment no value at all nor the fact that while incarcerated, he won't be free to attack others?
As I said, individually it may seem like little or no compensation, but isn't the alternative far worse?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> If that's true, then nothing would be lost be ceasing punishment, or have you not considered the possibility that the rape victim could be assaulted multiple times if it weren't for the laws against it?
> Is the assurance of punishment no value at all nor the fact that while incarcerated, he won't be free to attack others?
> As I said, individually it may seem like little or no compensation, but isn't the alternative far worse?


Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Punishment can have value but still not mean the victim wins.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

painterswife said:


> I have not argued that anyone should not punish to deter the act just that doing so is not a win for anyone especially the victim.


I have a suggestion: Let's take your ideas on the subject from the top. Of I am following correctly you are saying that prevention is superior to punishing a completed violation which is superior to an unpunished violation. Is this correct? How do you believe it should be addressed?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Punishment can have value but still not mean the victim wins.


I see that it doesn't make sense to you.
Perhaps if you can see past the victim's loss at the time of the attack, into the future of what the world would be like if there was no punishment, then it would make more sense.

For instance, look at somewhere else where assaults are routine and seldom punished.
What would it be like to live like that, in constant fear?
If that changed overnight, you don't think the victims would be celebrating even a small victory?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

IndyDave said:


> I have a suggestion: Let's take your ideas on the subject from the top. Of I am following correctly you are saying that prevention is superior to punishing a completed violation which is superior to an unpunished violation. Is this correct? How do you believe it should be addressed?


Yes. I don't think complete prevention is possible but when we are moving towards a great reduction by simple acts of having these videos posted and discussed. Men or women will think twice before they put their hands on someone like this. I still want perpetrators punished but that does not change the fact that someone had to experience the unwanted act in the first place. That person does not win anything when the perpetrator is punished.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Men or women *will think* twice before they put their hands on someone like this.


Not as long as they are human.

Some will always do stupid things, and "society" is a fantasy that means something different to everyone you ask. 

There are only "people" and they have acted the same way since the beginning of time. 

It's not going to change drastically no matter how many internet videos there are.


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## blanket (May 28, 2013)

Don't really want to try to understand all the nuances of all the arguments of this but if that girl was one of my daughters and a man did this to her and I was present I would have kicked the crap out of him and jail be damned. Respect for women and people in general has become lost in our world and this is why this world is getting so screwed up


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not as long as they are human.
> 
> Some will always do stupid things, and "society" is a fantasy that means something different to everyone you ask.
> 
> ...


Yep. People is people. Some have different reactions to actions than others do. I personally know several couples involved in lengthy marriages that began with a pat on the backside. The human mating ritual can be quite interesting to say the least.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

I was in Salida, Colorado at a Grocery Store, looking in the Meat Case. Had a Mexican Woman grab my butt. Was standing in Line at the Local Hardware Store here had a woman start rubbing my Back. Both times I didn't do anything just thought it was strange.

big rockpile


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

BR, now yer makin' me feel kinda left out


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

big rockpile said:


> I was in Salida, Colorado at a Grocery Store, looking in the Meat Case. Had a Mexican Woman grab my butt. Was standing in Line at the Local Hardware Store here had a woman start rubbing my Back. Both times I didn't do anything just thought it was strange.
> 
> big rockpile


I was standing waist deep in a swimming hole once, had a women grab me. Luckily I was facing her or she would have grabbed my butt..., that would have been embarrassing!


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I wish that they had not shown the woman's face or published the name of the restaurant. Hope she has discontinued her social media pages as given the way people behave now I am sure she would (has) received many obscene and vicious posts.

As for the question posed by American Stand "is sexual assault more special than any other assault". Not sure what "more special" is supposed to mean but if you mean worse?? Worse is defined as "a more serious or unpleasant event or circumstance". It would depend on if you are comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges. Given some of the horrific physical assaults that people have suffered I would have to say in an apple to apple comparison not worse as to the physical and often psychological damage - but it is definitely the most cowardly act one human can do to another.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> I wish that they had not shown the woman's face or published the name of the restaurant. Hope she has discontinued her social media pages as given the way people behave now I am sure she would (has) received many obscene and vicious posts.
> 
> As for the question posed by American Stand "is sexual assault more special than any other assault". Not sure what "more special" is supposed to mean but if you mean worse?? Worse is defined as "a more serious or unpleasant event or circumstance". It would depend on if you are comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges. Given some of the horrific physical assaults that people have suffered I would have to say in an apple to apple comparison not worse as to the physical and often psychological damage - but it is definitely the most cowardly act one human can do to another.


She's already asked everyone to drop it. It's done and he got punished for it. Not that anyone will though.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

No it will not be dropped because so many think that she had no right to defend herself (and others that may be attacked in the future) by grabbing and detaining this despicable man and thus having him punished for what was clearly a sexual assault.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you see sexual assault as something more special than any other assault ?


Yes, as a matter of fact I do. The rationale is that while the physical damage is likely not as serious, the psychological damage is typically far worse especially as we deal with greater offenses than the one presently under discussion.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> No it will not be dropped because so many think that she had no right to defend herself (and others that may be attacked in the future) by grabbing and detaining this despicable man and thus having him punished for what was clearly a sexual assault.


For myself, I would rather my wife and daughter have the privilege of defending themselves because they will regardless of what the law says.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

IndyDave said:


> Yes, as a matter of fact I do. The rationale is that while the physical damage is likely not as serious, the psychological damage is typically far worse especially as we deal with greater offenses than the one presently under discussion.


That's the kicker there. I think in this case though the psychological damage may have happened to him.

It may have even happened to the ones that think she went too far..


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> For myself, I would rather my wife and daughter have the privilege of defending themselves because they will regardless of what the law says.


Yes - self defense is very important and my father was well ahead of his time when he taught us. I defended myself all my life and although I did not face any legal consequences I did at work - which I also fought back about. But as can be seen by some of the posts here if it is a woman who defends herself against a man it is not fair to the man. If this were a man who had been assaulted by this same man in the same manner there would not be so much (if any) outrage at the take down. And it is not the laws so much as the interpretation of the laws. Once again - take down someone who is robbing you of your TV but if a man grabs your breast or behind what you do to defend yourself that will always be questioned. Double standard still exists. Personally I think anyone using the line "boys will be boys" should be ashamed of themselves. That is just an excuse for bad and even criminal behaviour.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> Yes - self defense is very important and my father was well ahead of his time when he taught us. But as can be seen by some of the posts here if it is a woman who defends herself against a man it is not fair to the man. If this were a man who had been assaulted by this same man in the same manner there would not be so much (if any) outrage at the take down. And it is not the laws so much as the interpretation of the laws. Once again - take down someone who is robbing you of your TV but if a man grabs your breast or behind that will always be questioned. Double standard still exists.


But watch what happens when another man grabs HIS butt. That is probably justified.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

emdeengee said:


> No it will not be dropped because so many think that she had no right to defend herself (and others that may be attacked in the future) by grabbing and detaining this despicable man and thus having him punished for what was clearly a sexual assault.


Those people would certainly hate any of my solutions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Some would consider a pat on the backside a good thing, a compliment even. Others?? Apparently not so much. Me? If ivanka trump (or most any of the ladies who post here on ht) were to pat my behind as she walked by, I would consider it a good thing. Certainly would not rough her up and have her arrested. But then I understand how a lady might be appreciative of quality when they see it.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Some would consider a pat on the backside a good thing, a compliment even. Others?? Apparently not so much. Me? If ivanka trump (or most any of the ladies who post here on ht) were to pat my behind as she walked by, I would consider it a good thing. Certainly would not rough her up and have her arrested. But then I understand how a lady might be appreciative of quality when they see it.



What if while walking by Jethro stuck his finger up your behind to his second knuckle, would you be appreciative ?


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Some would consider a pat on the backside a good thing, a compliment even. Others?? Apparently not so much. Me? If ivanka trump (or most any of the ladies who post here on ht) were to pat my behind as she walked by, I would consider it a good thing. Certainly would not rough her up and have her arrested. But then I understand how a lady might be appreciative of quality when they see it.


Next time you and the wife are out in public, invite all the men present to 'compliment' your wife with a civilized pat on her backside . . . and don't forget to say thank you for their kind gesture.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> What if while walking by Jethro stuck his finger up your behind to his second knuckle, would you be appreciative ?


Somehow I expect that sort of nonsense from you. First of all jethro probably wouldn't have much luck since I wear clothing that protects those areas. Secondly if jethro were to touch me in such a manner he would get the look that only a fool would ignore. If jethro proved out to be so foolish sat to continue his shenanigans..... Well there simply isn't a good ending to that. The major differences here is that this young fellow did not jam any fingers inside anyone, she opted for violence as the first defense, and the "perceived threat" if there was one, had passed.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> , she opted for violence as the first defense, and the "perceived threat" if there was one, had passed.


That post right there is why women still get assaulted and then put down because people think touching others without permission is acceptable.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

So you'd tell him thank you, can I have another ?

Jeffy was just letting you know you had a nice ass


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tobster said:


> Next time you and the wife are out in public, invite all the men present to 'compliment' your wife with a civilized pat on her backside . . . and don't forget to say thank you for their kind gesture.


It happens more than you might think.... And I do let the gentlemen know that both she and I appreciate the compliment. My Yvonne happens to be a very attractive woman... And not just from a physical veiwpoint, she has a great mind, good sense of humor and is an overall classy lady. I can't hardly blame others who notice that fact.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> That post right there is why women still get assaulted and then put down because people think touching others without permission is acceptable.


It's not that post that is to blame. Want to blame someone? Blame the many women who look forward to this kind of behaviours and encourage it every chance they get.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It's not that post that is to blame. Want to blame someone? Blame the many women who look forward to this kind of behaviours and encourage it every chance they get.


That excuse is so lame and a perfect example of boys will be boys. Would you cop a feel of your wife's coworker because your wife is fine with someone copping a feel of her?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It's not that post that is to blame. Want to blame someone? Blame the many women who look forward to this kind of behaviours and encourage it every chance they get.


Can you explain what women you are referring to in this post?



Yvonne's hubby said:


> It happens more than you might think.... And I do let the gentlemen know that both she and I appreciate the compliment. My Yvonne happens to be a very attractive woman... And not just from a physical veiwpoint, she has a great mind, good sense of humor and is an overall classy lady. I can't hardly blame others who notice that fact.


I want to make sure I understand your post, both you and your wife are fine with her being groped in public?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> So you'd tell him thank you, can I have another ?
> 
> Jeffy was just letting you know you had a nice ass


Nope, re read my post where I explained quite clearly how I would have handled said situation.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

OK, second knuckle might be too much, how about just first knuckle then ?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Would you still give him that look ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> That excuse is so lame and a perfect example of boys will be boys. Would you cop a feel of your wife's coworker because your wife is fine with someone copping a feel of her?


I'm not interested in my wife's coworkers behinds.... Pretty much she works in an all male setting.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> Would you still give him that look ?


Yep, any man gets the "never do that again" look if they get bold with me.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, re read my post where I explained quite clearly how I would have handled said situation.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm not interested in my wife's coworkers behinds.... Pretty much she works in an all male setting.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, any man gets the "never do that again" look if they get bold with me.


To what posts are you responding?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can you explain what women you are referring to in this post?
> 
> 
> 
> I make to make sure I understand your post, both you and your wife are fine with her being groped in public?


I'm referring to those many women I described in my post.... Those who like that kind of attention, and very often reward the men who practice such behaviours. As to both of us being fine with a first time fanny pat.... Yeah, we are both pretty much ok with that. Things change however if she isn't ok with it and the jerk tries again. I love my Yvonne and have a low tolerance level to anyone who cannot bring themselves to respect her wishes.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> To what posts are you responding?


The posts that I brought forward.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm referring to those many women I described in my post.... Those who like that kind of attention, and very often reward the men who practice such behaviours. As to both of us being fine with a first time fanny pat.... Yeah, we are both pretty much ok with that. Things change however if she isn't ok with it and the jerk tries again. I love my Yvonne and have a low tolerance level to anyone who cannot bring themselves to respect her wishes.


I've read about stuff like this, it's great if that is what you both like and consent to tho. It's not my thing, but I'm not judging, to each his own. 



Yvonne's hubby said:


> The posts that I brought forward.


I expected that sort of nonsense from you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I expected that sort of nonsense from you.


What nonsense? I brought forward the posts that I responded to as I responded to them. I normally do that to avoid confusion.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I've read about stuff like this, it's great if that is what you both like and consent to tho. It's not my thing, but I'm not judging, to each his own.


Yeah, it's nice to be in love with your best freind. It enables complete trust and honesty. Jealousy is a great destroyer of what might have been great relationships. Sad sad sad. It's a shame so many have such poor self esteem. My Yvonne knows and I know that we will always be there for each other.... Unless I croak, but most of her needs will still be met. The financial needs anyway, and with her good looks, intelligence, and class I'm sure she will find someone to fill the emotional gaps as well in short order.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yeah, it's nice to be in love with your best freind. It enables complete trust and honesty. Jealousy is a great destroyer of what might have been great relationships. Sad sad sad. It's a shame so many have such poor self esteem. My Yvonne knows and I know that we will always be there for each other.... Unless I croak, but most of her needs will still be met. The financial needs anyway, and with her good looks, intelligence, and class I'm sure she will find someone to fill the emotional gaps as well in short order.


My husband does not want other men pawing me. It sure is not about jealousy It is about respecting another person, s wish to not be touched unless they want to be touched.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> My husband does not want other men pawing me. It sure is not about jealousy It is about respecting another person, s wish to not be touched unless they want to be touched.


Your hubby sounds a lot like me. I take a very dim view of anyone who doesn't respect other people's wishes. Communication is the key. Lots of people understand that how they dress and act is a form of communication. My second wife understood that quite well. Never had the problem of unwanted attention from anyone. My Yvonne "gets it" too. It's a shame that more people don't.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I normally do that *to avoid confusion.*


It doesn't seem to be working to well.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> My husband does not want other men pawing me. It sure is not about jealousy It is about respecting another person, s wish to not be touched unless they want to be touched.


Having other people touch your partner in public is a fetish. There isn't an issue if all consent, at least to me, although it's nothing that I find appealing. It appears to be a fairly common.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Seems to be some confusion. Mostly in the way words and actions are being interpreted. In the video it seems the man touches the woman’s rear end with no invite. 
1. That’s the wrong thing to do and he should be legally punished. 
2. A person has the right to defend oneself. In this case the guy was already gone and there was no reason for defense or for us getting into the appropriate legal amount of force that would have been justified in this case. 
3. Detain the guy for the cops to show up? Ok thats fair. Was he trying to escape? I cannot tell from the video and doubt anyone else can also. If he was trying to escape then fine and dandy, detain him, legally.
4. Was the woman legally detaining the man for the police to show up? Or just assaulting him back. I cannot tell from the video. Does look very debatable. Doubt anyone else can tell either, from the video. 
5. Everyone is perfectly free to create whatever scenario they wish with the information seen in the video. It’s interesting to see what some have done. 
6. Yes I realize that some are also using information from other sources that were not in the OP’s original video. That’s ok also but quite confusing do to the lack of communicating the use of those sources.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I would in all honesty rather someone punched me than cop a feel. It would hurt but I wouldn't feel like as disrespected.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> I would in all honesty rather someone punched me than cop a feel. It would hurt but I wouldn't feel like as disrespected.


I understand completely.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> Was the woman legally detaining the man for the police to show up?


She put him on the ground and almost immediately told someone to call the police.

When the LEO's arrived and viewed the video, he was arrested and she was not.
That should settle all questions as to whether or not her actions were legal and acceptable.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

no really said:


> I would in all honesty rather someone punched me than cop a feel. It would hurt but I wouldn't feel like as disrespected.





Irish Pixie said:


> I understand completely.


I am with you. This reminds me of a conversation that developed in a training session once upon a time when I worked for the Department of Correction. I had mentioned worrying a lot less since my then recent transfer into a women's prison. One of my female colleagues pointed out that a (male appendage) is softer than a broom handle. I replied that I could deal psychologically much better with the broom handle. I still feel that physical injury is less problematic than psychological/emotional trauma.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Somehow I expect that sort of nonsense from you. First of all jethro probably wouldn't have much luck since I wear clothing that protects those areas. Secondly if jethro were to touch me in such a manner he would get the look that only a fool would ignore. If jethro proved out to be so foolish sat to continue his shenanigans..... Well there simply isn't a good ending to that. The major differences here is that this young fellow did not jam any fingers inside anyone, she opted for violence as the first defense, and the "perceived threat" if there was one, had passed.



Well, only seeing the video, I can't definitively say, but even the 1st time I saw it that's just about what it looked like to me.
Then I read the woman's account and that's how she described it.......it (his hand) went further than someone who was a casual acquaintance.......or something close to that.

ETA.......


> “When I felt that happen, my first thought was that it was one of my friends … it was a really intimate touch,” she says. “His hand went further than it should have so I was thinking, ‘There’s no way a stranger just did that.’ ” she told the magazine,



IOW, it wasn't a pat on the rump, which isn't excusable either for a complete stranger. Complete graphic explanation isn't necessary here, but I still say he's lucky to have his fingers in working order after that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Your hubby sounds a lot like me. I take a very dim view of anyone who doesn't respect other people's wishes. Communication is the key. Lots of people understand that how they dress and act is a form of communication. My second wife understood that quite well. Never had the problem of unwanted attention from anyone. My Yvonne "gets it" too. It's a shame that more people don't.


I think the woman in the video communicated fairly clearly that she did not appreciate a stranger groping her and since her clothing was the dress code set forth by her employer, perhaps she felt she was communicating, 'I'm working for a living and paying my bills.' How others interpret her attire doesn't give them a license to grope her.

There was also a video posted recently of a young server wearing an unflattering brown shirt and brown slacks and sensible shoes, who was also groped by an elderly man, who's wife was in the washroom. Can you explain how her attire may have communicated her desire to be groped?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wr said:


> I think the woman in the video communicated fairly clearly that she did not appreciate a stranger groping her and since her clothing was the dress code set forth by her employer, perhaps she felt she was communicating, 'I'm working for a living and paying my bills.' How others interpret her attire doesn't give them a license to grope her.
> 
> There was also a video posted recently of a young server wearing an unflattering brown shirt and brown slacks and sensible shoes, who was also groped by an elderly man, who's wife was in the washroom. Can you explain how her attire may have communicated her desire to be groped?


Like I said, how one dresses, coupled with their behaviours can be a form of communication. Her actions "after" the incident conveyed a much different message than what the man may have perceived prior to his action. I haven't seen the other vid you mention so can't comment on that situation.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Like I said, how one dresses, coupled with their behaviours can be a form of communication. Her actions "after" the incident conveyed a much different message than what the man may have perceived prior to his action. I haven't seen the other vid you mention so can't comment on that situation.


Are you saying that what someone is wearing gives men permission to sexually assault them?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Are you saying that what someone is wearing gives men permission to sexually assault them?


Nope. Please pay attention as we go along. I am simply saying that the way a person attires themselves along with behaviours can present themselves as being "in the market" or "absolutely not available" depending upon the message they wish to convey. But then I'm quite certain you were well aware of this in high school, if not earlier.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Like I said, how one dresses, coupled with their behaviours can be a form of communication. Her actions "after" the incident conveyed a much different message than what the man may have perceived prior to his action. I haven't seen the other vid you mention so can't comment on that situation.


Even if the man, misinterpreted her attire and possibly friendly disposition, he still had no right to grope her. 

If he found her attractive and was any kind of man at all, he could have asked her out but groping her in a room full of people seems like childish and degrading way to get a woman’s attention. 

The women I know are attracted to men who treat them with respect and I’ve yet to meet one who’s fond of being groped by strangers in their place of work.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wr said:


> Even if the man, misinterpreted her attire and possibly friendly disposition, he still had no right to grope her.
> 
> If he found her attractive and was *any kind of man at all, *he could have asked her out but groping her in a room full of people seems like childish and degrading way to get a woman’s attention.
> 
> The women I know are attracted to men who treat them with respect and I’ve yet to meet one who’s fond of being groped by strangers in their place of work.


had he been any kind of man he wouldn't have gotten his backside whooped by a girl.  was his approach proper behaviour? Nope, did she over react to his poor manners? I think so. My point all along has been "where do men get the idea that this type of behaviour is acceptable? They are far too often rewarded rather than getting their backside whooped." Me? It's not a move I would make. But then I've always been the shy sorta guy you never see over in the corner minding my p's n q's.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Are you saying that what someone is wearing gives men permission to sexually assault them?


Yvonne's hubby's (HDRider's post #5 as well) posts on this tread are definitely victim blaming. The "What was she wearing?" isn't even suggested, it's stated.

This is why the US (and other countries) still have rampant rape culture.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yvonne's hubby's (HDRider's post #5 as well) posts on this tread are definitely victim blaming. The "What was she wearing?" isn't even suggested, it's stated.
> 
> This is why the US (and other countries) still have rampant rape culture.


I've watched the video several times...... Can't find the rape scene??


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I've watched the video several times...... Can't find the rape scene??


Please pay attention as we go along. 

Rape culture, "a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse." from Google dictionary

Rape culture is a sociological concept for a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2] Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, ****-shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I could be a nudist and it still gives no one the right or the invitation to grope me or touch me. That is the crux of it. That is what so many people don't seem to understand or want to understand. 

I am thankful that this discussion is happening over and over on social media and in forums because obviously enough parents did not teach their offspring what unwanted touching is. I am thankful that the boys will be boys mind set is being exposed for the wrong it is. I am sad that some still find a way to justify to themselves a reason to assault others.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Your hubby sounds a lot like me. I take a very dim view of anyone who doesn't respect other people's wishes. Communication is the key. Lots of people understand that how they dress and act is a form of communication. My second wife understood that quite well. Never had the problem of unwanted attention from anyone. My Yvonne "gets it" too. It's a shame that more people don't.


No my husband sound nothing like you. You keep posting excuses to justify touching others without them saying it is okay. You keep posting that clothing choices someone how give others permission to touch someone. My husband would never do either of those things.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> No my husband sound nothing like you. You keep posting excuses to justify touching others without them saying it is okay. You keep posting that clothing choices someone how give others permission to touch someone. My husband would never do either of those things.


Nope, I've never posted that clothing choices give anyone permission to do anything. In spite of your efforts to twist my words in that direction... It just ain't so.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> L*ike I said, how one dresses, coupled with their behaviours can be a form of communicatio*n. Her actions "after" the incident conveyed a much different message than what the man may have perceived prior to his action. I haven't seen the other vid you mention so can't comment on that situation.


You say it right there. You have said it before. Every time you say that clothing says something you justify it.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

The woman in the video should not have been touched, assaulted, given unwanted attention. Whatever one desires to call it. The clothing worn by the woman should have nothing to do with the problems in the video. 

BUT

Clothing and its uses past the needs of protection from the elements does form a basis of communication. Has done so for hundreds of years. Clothing may not always be intended by the wearer to signal something but it does. Might be best to be real careful on the interpretation.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> The woman in the video should not have been touched, assaulted, given unwanted attention. Whatever one desires to call it. The clothing worn by the woman should have nothing to do with the problems in the video.
> 
> BUT
> 
> Clothing and its uses past the needs of protection from the elements does form a basis of communication. Has done so for hundreds of years. Clothing may not always be intended by the wearer to signal something but it does. Might be best to be real careful on the interpretation.


This post is a clear indication of justification (the BUT negates anything prior) and why the US (and other countries) still have a rape culture. 

Redlands Okie, do you think women who drink and stay out at night are signaling they may want to be sexually assaulted as well?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> The woman in the video should not have been touched, assaulted, given unwanted attention. Whatever one desires to call it. The clothing worn by the woman should have nothing to do with the problems in the video.
> 
> BUT
> 
> Clothing and its uses past the needs of protection from the elements does form a basis of communication. Has done so for hundreds of years. Clothing may not always be intended by the wearer to signal something but it does. Might be best to be real careful on the interpretation.


If clothing signals to you that you can touch someone without their permission ( not saying it does to you) then that is entirely your problem. Do you think a little girl wearing her bathing suit should signal to some person it is okay to touch that little girl inappropriately?

The problem is that interpretation is subjective and unless you ask the person it is all in your head and may not be what the person wearing the clothes is saying.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

no really said:


> I would in all honesty rather someone punched me than cop a feel. It would hurt but I wouldn't feel like as disrespected.


 I think here you’ve had a very important point. For men, that coped feel would insult the copper. 
For men that punch is the insult.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Redlands Okie, do you think women who drink and stay out at night are signaling they may want to be sexually assaulted as well?


 You are loading this question in the way you ask it. 
If you had asked it as “what do you think women who drink and stay out all night are signaling.?”
You might have got a more accurate answer. I believe that answer is they are signaling availability. 
Availability is not the same as consent but it can lead to confusion particularly when dealing with tired drunk people.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> her clothing was the dress code set forth by her employer, perhaps she felt she was communicating, 'I'm working for a living and paying my bills.'.........?


 Really ? I hadn’t heard that before. That certainly gives an interesting twist to the situation.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> You are loading this question in the way you ask it.
> If you had asked it as “what do you think women who drink and stay out all night are signaling.?”
> You might have got a more accurate answer. I believe that answer is they are signaling availability.
> Availability is not the same as consent but it can lead to confusion particularly when dealing with tired drunk people.


I don't think they are signalling anything. They may be married or involved but have fun with their girlfriends or male friends. The problem is that the person trying to figure out what they are "signaling" really does not know and should ask before they assume.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Hold the boat folks read this quote carefully ,

“When I felt that happen, my first thought was that it was one of my friends … it was a really intimate touch,” she says. “His hand went further than it should have so I was thinking, ‘There’s no way a stranger just did that.’ ” she told the magazine,

Did you catch the “ his hand went further than it should have”

So apparently in this setting it is appropriate at least in her mind to Pat butt . The problem isn’t that he patted her butt it is that he went to far and that became intimate. 

Now considering that doesn’t it throw things into a slightly different light ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> I don't think they are signalling anything. They may be married or involved but have fun with their girlfriends or male friends. The problem is that the person trying to figure out what they are "signaling" really does not know and should ask before they assume.


Really honestly you don’t believe everything you do doesn’t signal? Ever hear of body language? What you say how you say it how you dress and what your dress in all make signals.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Really honestly you don’t believe everything you do doesn’t signal? Ever hear of body language? What you say how you say it how you dress and what your dress in all make signals.


No they are not. The person looking at me is making assumptions based on their beliefs.

Think about it this way. Person A is aroused by t-shirts and jeans. Person B is aroused by a women that is completely covered head to foot. Person C is aroused by open toed shoes. I can't win no matter what I wear. Someone is going to think I am signaling something but they really have no clue what it is because I am not them.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> No they are not. The person looking at me is making assumptions based on their beliefs.
> 
> Think about it this way. Person A is aroused by t-shirts and jeans. Person B is aroused by a women that is completely covered head to foot. Person C is aroused by open toed shoes. I can't win no matter what I wear. Someone is going to think I am signaling something but they really have no clue what it is because I am not them.


 What is it you are trying to “win”?
What other people are around by has nothing to do with what you are signaling.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> What is it you are trying to “win”?
> What other people are around by has nothing to do with what you are signaling.


Win? I am trying to tell you that what I wear signals nothing. I wear what I want because of how it makes me feel or what purpose it is for. I wear tight jeans because I don't have to keep pulling them up and it is harder for bugs to get up the legs. Does that mean I a signalling to someone to look at my butt? No it does not though someone else may think I am. I wear short dresses because it feels good to have the air blowing around my lower extremities not because I am signalling anything to anyone. I have spent many nights in the bar in my past with all kinds of friends. Never did it signal that I wanted a guy to hit on me.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

What I don't get is men that state quite often that they don't understand what women think, they can accurately understand what they are signalling by the clothes they are wearing?


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

painterswife said:


> What I don't get is men that state quite often that they don't understand women think they can accurately understand what they are signalling by the clothes they are wearing?


haha good point


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Hold the boat folks read this quote carefully ,
> 
> “When I felt that happen, my first thought was that it was one of my friends … it was a really intimate touch,” she says. “His hand went further than it should have so I was thinking, ‘There’s no way a stranger just did that.’ ” she told the magazine,
> 
> ...


I caught her comment and interpreted is as her explanation as to how her mind was trying to process information. Just because she may have people in her life that she allows to touch her, in no way indicates that consent extends to any man who's so inclined. 

I'm still struggling with the idea that some still feel the need to blame the woman for inviting his attention, being upset and reacting to unwanted groping or somehow sending out signals that she wanted to be groped. The man was out of line, she did not deserve to be groped, she obviously didn't feel she invited it. 

There has been much discussion over women who have come forward much later with complaints that men have done similar and each time it's been discussed, the woman has been blamed (gold digger looking for a payday or she must have wanted it) or it has been suggested that the woman should have done something at the time. This woman did something at the time and it still seems that it's still easier to blame her than to accept the idea that women don't want to be groped.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> This post is a clear indication of justification (the BUT negates anything prior) and why the US (and other countries) still have a rape culture.
> 
> Redlands Okie, do you think women who drink and stay out at night are signaling they may want to be sexually assaulted as well?





painterswife said:


> If clothing signals to you that you can touch someone without their permission ( not saying it does to you) then that is entirely your problem. Do you think a little girl wearing her bathing suit should signal to some person it is okay to touch that little girl inappropriately?
> 
> The problem is that interpretation is subjective and unless you ask the person it is all in your head and may not be what the person wearing the clothes is saying.


Kinda figured this would go the way it has. 
Drinking and staying out has nothing to do with the subject in the video and signals nothing about inviting sexual assault. 
A girl wearing a swim suit also has nothing to do with the subject of the video or inviting inappropriate touching. 
Where do you all get these ideas. It seems it should be a concern for you all to have these assumptions. 
Clothing signals a lot of things that has nothing to do with sexual assault. Women and men wear suits and dress clothes as statements of power, success, wealth, etc. What’s the difference between a set of cloths from Walmart and one from a high end clothing store? Its a statement. 
Why do people dress differently for church, going to the bar, shopping at Walmart, going to court, job interviews, and the list goes on. It’s because their communicating information. You all know it as well as I do so no need to put words in my mouth that I did not say. 

The problem here is a whole lot of women and to some degree men allowing actions to happen for decades and doing little about it till now. 
Keep in mind that every single one of these situations is a result of parents, (usually a woman involved somewhere in the process) that have raised these people. Not to mention other adults involved in the process of raising children, teachers, church originations, coaches, etc.
It’s a reflection of years and years of a society that has decided it wants new rules and somehow expects it to happen overnight. There is a lot of educating to be done out there and its going to take a long time. Good luck.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> <snip what is in my opinion justification>
> 
> The problem here is a whole lot of women and to some degree men allowing actions to happen for decades and doing little about it till now.


Why did (for the most part) women have to allow these "actions" to happen and do little about it until now? Do you know? 

Don't you think that all men should know that sexual assault is wrong?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Kinda figured this would go the way it has.
> Drinking and staying out has nothing to do with the subject in the video and signals nothing about inviting sexual assault.
> A girl wearing a swim suit also has nothing to do with the subject of the video or inviting inappropriate touching.
> Where do you all get these ideas. It seems it should be a concern for you all to have these assumptions.
> ...


Yes, there are a lot of people to blame. It won't however take as long as you think it will to change. Look at the difference Me too has made already. 

Clothing has become part of this discussion because a few have implied that what we wear signals that a women wants something.

Yes, lots of people still think that clothing makes the man/women. I still remember when I could not wear a pair jeans to school when it snowed because the male teacher would not let me in the classroom because a girl was not to wear pants to school. Well guess what those things are changing. The difference between a pair of clothes at Walmart and one at a high end store is price and quality. I can buy a tshirt at both places but one will last me longer if I can afford it and want it. I wear what fits the situation. If I want to I can wear the same jeans and tee to work or the bar. The people at my local bank wear tshirts and jeans all the time. 

Either way clothes have nothing to do with signalling that you are up for being groped. They should have never been brought into this discussion by those justifying a women being assaulted.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have noticed something. It seems to be the older men that are trying to bring clothing choices or a women drinking in a bar into the discussion about whether or not patting a women on the behind is okay. I suspect that the sins of their past are being justified.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why did (for the most part) women have to allow these "actions" to happen and do little about it until now? Do you know?
> 
> Don't you think that all men should know that sexual assault is wrong?





painterswife said:


> Yes, there are a lot of people to blame. It won't however take as long as you think it will to change. Look at the difference Me too has made already.
> 
> Clothing has become part of this discussion because a few have implied that what we wear signals that a women wants something.
> 
> ...


The women allowed these actions after considering the pros and cons of complaining. Right or wrong it was a choice. 

Any kind of assault is wrong. Sex has nothing to do with it. 

You can wear what you want for sure. People still form opinions. 

I agree that clothes should have nothing to do with being a signal causing unwanted contact. By the way I keep reading that clothes should not be taken as a signal for unwanted contact. Are clothes used to signal for desired contact ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> You say it right there. You have said it before. Every time you say that clothing says something you justify it.


What a perfect example of misinterpreting my words.


Yvonne's hubby said:


> Like I said, how one dresses, coupled with their behaviours can be a form of communication. Her actions "after" the incident conveyed a much different message than what the man may have perceived prior to his action. I haven't seen the other vid you mention so can't comment on that situation.


No where in my comment do I even remotely suggest this guy is justified in his actions. I am merely stating the fact that attire and behaviour can be used to convey meanings. I'm pretty sure her behaviour after he touched her was to make a statement.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

painterswife said:


> I have noticed something. It seems to be the older men that are trying to bring clothing choices or a women drinking in a bar into the discussion about whether or not patting a women on the behind is okay. I suspect that the sins of their past are being justified.



Really ?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I have noticed something. It seems to be *the older men* that are trying to bring clothing choices or a women drinking in a bar into the discussion about whether or not patting a women on the behind is okay. I suspect that the sins of their past are being justified.


I'd prefer that you put "some" or "except for some" in the above bolded portion of your post, seeing as how I'm an older man, and have gone as far out on a limb stating my very clear opinions as anybody.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> The women allowed these actions after considering the pros and cons of complaining. Right or wrong it was a choice.
> 
> Any kind of assault is wrong. Sex has nothing to do with it.
> 
> ...


It was not a choice, at all. Women were not believed or it wasn't an issue for those in authority and wasn't pursued. Women are now being believed and men really should understand it's not like back in the day when they got away with sexual assault because victim blaming (such has been detailed on this thread) was employed liberally.

You're right, sex has little to do with sexual assault, it's power and the ability to humiliate/control.

Nope. Clothes do not signal desired contact, consent does that. It seems that many people just don't understand what consent is...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Clem said:


> I'd prefer that you put "some" or "except for some" in the above bolded portion of your post, seeing as how I'm an older man, and have gone as far out on a limb stating my very clear opinions as anybody.


I did not see you even implying that womens choice of clothing could signal they were all right with being touched without asking. I sure don't think all older men believe that. My husband does not.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I was thinking about going out, but looked in a mirror. Baggy pants, holey Tshirt, ragged out combat boots...what if I'm at the dollar store, and some old coot thinks "He looks like he needs a good touching" and does it, and I'm like "What's wrong with you, gramps? Need your ticket punched or something?" And he says "You're never gonna get a woman dressed like that, and I thought you look like you ain't been touched in a while...." And I look close and say "Say, aint you ******* from HT?" And he's like "Maybe I am, maybe I ain't"


Nah. I'm staying home.

Can you really judge people by their clothes?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> I have noticed something. It seems to be the older men that are trying to bring clothing choices or a women drinking in a bar into the discussion about whether or not patting a women on the behind is okay. I suspect that the sins of their past are being justified.


I don't think it's justifying the sins of their past as much as it's different observations from a different time. Good girls dressed a certain way and bad girls didn't follow dress code. 

Many look at tattoos the same way. My mother just about had a stroke when she saw my daughter's tattoo on her wrist (a star in memory of a dear friend). As far as she was concerned, tattoos are trashy and she had ruined her chances of ever dating a 'nice' boy.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Last cleanup. Keep it civil or it gets moved.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

A humorous groping story: Back in he day I was at my local RnR venue. Along with my band mates ,we were out for a night of hero worship (The Professionals-a "supergroup", from England) and later the usual bacchanal. It was a hot,steamy summer night in Providence.The kind of night where you can see the fog and 'cigarette' smoke wafting in the yellow entry lights. Everyone was packed in the club, no mosh pit ,no room. Skin on skin. The band started playing. powerful rhythms, jungle drums, electric guitar and we were drunk. As the band played , we swayed as one to the music. I felt a hand rubbing my butt, and working its way into my torn jeans. Commando, ripped and torn jeans was the uniform.Knowing there was a line of college girls behind me, I had no objections, reaching behind me I tried to return the favor. Apparently, I was trying to return the favor to a non-groper.My hand was soundly slapped, yet, I was still being groped. A quick glance appraised me of the situation. Three girls giggling and one girl very pissed off. Luckily for me, I was drunk the girls were very drunk, and I was able to turn around and watch the show instead of slinking away embarassed with the chorus of amused giggles, following me. Oh,alcohol, the ying and yang in my life.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

painterswife said:


> I have noticed something. It seems to be the older men that are trying to bring clothing choices or a women drinking in a bar into the discussion about whether or not patting a women on the behind is okay. I suspect that the sins of their past are being justified.


No, that is painting with too broad a brush. I have met many older men that were more respectful than younger ones. It's not a generational thing as much as how well they were taught to respect others.


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