# Argentina Discussions



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Today I was working with a company based in Argentina. I had lunch with them and learned quite a lot. I'll try to share a little of the discussion for your entertainment.

One of the individuals is really wanting to move to Chicago. He is wanting to "escape" from the economic collapse his country suffered during the last decade. He's 32 with a wife and child.

He said the inflation rate is roughly 20% per year while salaries remain fixed in place by the government to prevent businesses from fleeing. He owns a home in Buenos Aires (where he lives) and paid $50k for it. The problem is that his mortgage interest rate is 45% and government taxes are eating up most of his salary.

I asked him what he was doing to preserve his financial assets from inflation and he said, "I convert my money from the Argentine peso to the American dollar." (At this point I realized I wasn't really talking to the smartest cookie ever.)

I asked him what a loaf of bread or a bag of potatoes costs and he stated they are both under a dollar. I marveled at that in the face of such severe inflation but he pointed out that both of them are grown in the country and the farmers bring them straight to market. Government price controls on food limit what they can get for them, but they are happy to barter.

He said he works in the federal district of Buenos Aires and it's really noisy. Apparently he's across from the Ministry of Work and rioters show up every day. They start their protests in the morning, throwing rocks back and forth and then the police show up and beat them with truncheons for awhile. The riots continue until early afternoon when government food trucks show up and shove bags and boxes off the back and drive away. Then the rioters grab the food and beat feet back home. Apparently it's a living. He said that had been going on for almost a decade.

He said crime is bad but there are no guns allowed in the city. All the criminals carry knives, clubs, or machetes. I asked if he carried a knife, club, or machete and he said no. He didn't want to be mistaken for a criminal. He said there are areas you go and areas you don't go, just like here in the states. I asked for an example of an area you don't go and he grinned wryly and said, "outside".

While food is relatively cheap, anything not produced locally in the country is horrendously expensive. Electronics, clothing, etc. eats up almost any spare money that they might have (not that there seems to be much).

After describing his bankrupt country and daily living to me he pointed out there was one thing his country had that we don't have. I asked what's that. He replied, "free healthcare."

So there you go. A little glimpse of what our future might be like if our economic crisis goes the way of Argentina.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Nothing is free...some people fail to see the correlation of taxes and "free" healthcare.

I think everyone should read the Ferfal blog...its coming our way no doubt.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

If you see him again, ask him if he knows what percentage of that high tax rate covers health care for himself and everyone else he knows.

SO it's only the imports that are expensive?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Beats me. The restaurant we were at had a sign on the table that proclaimed it had only "grass-fed beef". He was marveling at that sign. "Silly Americans," he said. "What ELSE would you feed a cow?"

What else indeed.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ernie said:


> One of the individuals is really wanting to move to Chicago. He is wanting to "escape" from the economic collapse his country suffered during the last decade. He's 32 with a wife and child.
> 
> I asked him what he was doing to preserve his financial assets from inflation and he said, "I convert my money from the Argentine peso to the American dollar." (At this point I realized I wasn't really talking to the smartest cookie ever.)


To a drowning man, a leaky lifeboat looks fantabulous. 

Of course, apparently Argentines and a lot of the world's citizens have longed for greenbacks, bad as they may be, because they're so much more stable than their native fiat currencies.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Does anybody think it's odd the guy would want to move to Chicago??? as a step "up"?


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Actually yes, I did, until I thought further and then realized that Chicago is one of the most welfare-friendly cities there is. Maybe the Argentine guy heard about all the welfare he could get there "for free"? Just a thought....

I had a step-cousin, a real ******* girl from east Texas, country all the way but had a really serious welfare mentality, and she ended up in Chicago, living in the p.j's, because as she said almost ver batim, her apartment rent was paid which included her water, her electric was paid, her food was paid for, she got bus tokens, clothing vouchers, free school lunches and afternoon snacks for her baby-daddy children, etc etc etc etc. For her, it was a deadbeat's utopia; so much so that she traded living in the country for living in a ghetto hell-hole. Last I heard, she was 40-something and still in the p.j.'s....


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

And yet Argentina is a "mecca" for ex-pats.... my friend wants to move there, and wants me to take my sawmill there as well.... or at least have one similar sent there to run. A person can live like a king there for about $500 per month, a little more if you want to own and drive a car, a peson can live there for about $300 per month. I would not live in BA, cause of the 30 million people in the country, over half reside in that one "village"..... but the nice thing is they do have an AWESOME horse track there.

the total "federal" government buildings in Argentina amount to 12 buildings not a major bunch of building by most countries.... yes people disappeared in the middle of the night a couple decades ago and over 2 million people went gone missing from that era.... and firearms are allowed and not allowed...... but if you want full auto ordinace..... i am told all you have to do is visit a neighboring country [Paraguay or Uruguay] and you can pretty much bring back in what you want, though it really is not "lawful" they have tended to look the other way due to people wanting to protect themselves.... maybe you have to know a few things.

My friend was offered a job managing a stable there, and turned it down, cause he would have had to live in BA and he prefers the northern part of the country. I have read of apple farms being bought at just the right time, and the crop actually paying for the property there [not everyone is that fortunate] and the vineyards are just now taking foot holdt in the world market making it desirable to find a decent growing region and have a winery rise up from the dust of the earth [no i aint trying to sell anyone on the idea of moving] 

everyone has their viewpoint of what is good and what is not.... and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.....

William
Idaho


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Ernie said:


> "Silly Americans," he said. "What ELSE would you feed a cow?"
> 
> What else indeed.


ound::hysterical::cute:


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

If you want to read about somebody living the dream of the Argentina meltdown check out FerFAL's blog at http://www.ferfal.blogspot.com


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## patagoniax (Jan 25, 2011)

Blu3duk said:


> And yet Argentina is a "mecca" for ex-pats.... my friend wants to move there, and wants me to take my sawmill there as well.... or at least have one similar sent there to run. A person can live like a king there for about $500 per month, a little more if you want to own and drive a car


If you have not lived in or near Argentina recently it is easy to see how these stories are told.... at long distance.

I went grocery shopping in Argentina last week ( I live in Chile but only about 24 km from the frontier). Cost me the equivalent of nearly $70 US dollars to fill the Toyota gas tank. And about the same US$70 for some coffee filters, cooking oil, and not much else. It's expensive to live in Argentina in any sort of way that a North American is accustomed to. 

If you want to live in a hovel and eat beans in the dark, you might get by on that US$500 a month. If you wish to maintain a style of life and standard of living to which you are accustomed in the US or Canada, it will usually cost you a great deal more if you live in Chile or Argentina. 

Oh, and I had to wait in line to get that $70 worth of gasoline ( you can see the Argie flag in the distance and the Argie licence plates in the foto).


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

Welcome back, *patagoniax*. It's so easy to think another place has it better, until you hear from someone actually living there. Thank you for giving us the straight scoop.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I asked him what he was doing to preserve his financial assets from inflation and he said, "I convert my money from the Argentine peso to the American dollar." (At this point I realized I wasn't really talking to the smartest cookie ever.)


Relative to most currencies, the dollar is still by far the best place to go. It's the only thing that can save us from the dolts in Washington, confidence in the dollar.

The euro looked to compete with that, but after Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain sacked the euro it's not as attractive looking anymore.

That's my take on it anyway.

We may be killing the dollar from our perspective, but most other governments have a far higher debt to GDP ratio and deficit to GDP ratio.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

In that case, God help us all, world-wide, because there is no way to sustain that kind of debt load forever.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Time for a closer look....
http://www.ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/economic crisis world wide

between the fed and obamacare....


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

We vacationed in Buenos Aires in 1995, and even then they were suffering from hyper-inflation. People spent their salaries immediately upon being paid because only hard goods were worth holding on to. The US$ was strong there so it was an inexpensive vacation as far as food and tourist hotels, but we were shocked at the prices the locals had to pay. Leather goods were a big commodity there, but a leather belt my husband wanted to buy was US$70 so we passed on it. We were warned about the crime, but found it to be safer than Sao Paulo, where we lived at the time. (Sao Paulo had 1% inflation per day when we lived there, and they went through three different currencies during our time)

We were struck by all the beautiful architecture in BA, although it was starting to erode because of years of poverty and civil unrest. You could tell that the city was well run in the early 1900s, but came to the conclusion that just a few decades of socialism and bad leadership had run the country into the ground.

We drove to the countryside outside the city and noticed that the "average" person lived in tiny houses and even shacks. Many families didn't have cars, but many people had scooters that were easier on the gas tanks. Many, many people had gardens and backyard chickens or goats, and they ate well. 

Looking back on this from nearly 20 years later, I can see the US heading down the same path.


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## Jupiter (Dec 30, 2012)

kkbinco said:


> If you want to read about somebody living the dream of the Argentina meltdown check out FerFAL's blog at http://www.ferfal.blogspot.com


I haven't been to his blog but I did read his book...not a bad read.


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

All: ferfal moved to Northern Ireland...think it was early 2013. That's where he blogs from now. He talks about how much safer and happier his family is now; things like his kids had never played outside before....


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

I received an e-mail today about Venezuelan government declaring "hoarding" illegal and seizing preps. The article also mentions that Executive Orders are already in place to do this in the USA. Interesting read.

http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/prepping-become-illegal-venezuelan-govt-detain-hoarders/#

The whole world is on the brink of financial collaspe. Our government has made a lot of enemies of former friends due to the spying on cell phone calls and probably the Internet as well and the Presidents handling of foreign affairs shows us as weak all of which add additional levels of danger. 

Its fortunate for ferfal that he was able to move. The majority of people in any given country will not have that option.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Back in the 80's my parents use to offer housing to the Language Academy at the college across the street. One summer an entire family came over for "kids classes". Parents and 4 yr old stayed with us, older 3 kids were with host families in town. The mother wanted to go clothing shopping while here as the prices were so good compared to Argentina (they came to the US ever few years to work on the kids' English and shop). My mom is a bargain shopper, so she didn't take her to the mall but all the bargain store we had back then (new - not used). The lady was blown away by the pricing. She spent about $200 and said the same clothes would have cost well over $2000 in her country. Mom took her out about 2 or 3 more times, by the end of there 2 weeks she had enough clothes for her kids for the next 2 years, for about $500. She said the savings alone covered the cost of their trip to the US....which was one of the reasons they did it ever few years.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

He has a great book, also... http://www.amazon.com/The-Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving/dp/9870563457


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> The grass is greener on the other side of the fence.


Well where i'm setting looks like our Gov. has got a good supply of roundup ,wherever your grass is .:run:


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Well where i'm setting looks like our Gov. has got a good supply of roundup ,wherever your grass is .:run:


Then move to another country. What kind of country sounds like it will be the best?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> Then move to another country. What kind of country sounds like it will be the best?


If I weren't so old now i would go to Costa Rica ,I just waited to many years to go . Use to be a guy on here that moved there years back . Have some in my family that speak Spanish good as anyone ,I have encouraged them to keep a passport ready at all times :bandwagon:


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Old Vet said:


> Then move to another country. What kind of country sounds like it will be the best?


That's what I term thinking wrong, I'm not moving to another country...


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Kinda makes me wonder why the OP's friend wouldn't want to move a bit to the west and check out Chile. Seems to have a better and more stable economy going on from what I can read. 

Chicago?? I can't imagine anyone wanting to move TO Chicago. Away from, yes. To, no. He must have seen some movies or read some articles somewhere that glamorized the city. 

It can happen. It happened to me with Bourbon St. in New Orleans. Heard a guy named Bruce Williams (anybody remember him? talk radio guru...) talk about it in the most wonderful way. Wanted to go there. My wife took me there shortly after we married. (She lived in south Louisiana at the time.) It was a cesspool of pee, beer and trash on the streets, porn in every window, drunks and shady types in abundance and no place I have EVER wanted to go see again. CafÃ© DuMonde you might talk me into returning to. Bourbon St,... not a chance. 

Might be good for Mr. Argentine to come and visit the US for a while. He might decide it's not quite the place he'd hoped it would be. I know it's not the place a lot of us hoped it would be either... and we're from here.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> That's what I term thinking wrong, I'm not moving to another country...


I have traveled to many countries and have never found one that tops the US in any way. Those that say that is does have never lived in any other countries but in their mind the grass is always greener in other countries.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

It was more I've had that said to me before, "If you don't like it move"...
Umm nope, Like I said I'm not going anywhere, If I don't like it, "someone" else had better move or change what they are doing.

I'm not a Hard case in that other people can not do as they please, by all means.
But when it interferes with my liberty's, with out just cause... well then it needs some fixing. 
Of coarse thats going to happen, I've been guilty a time or two.
But once made aware, I am willing to work out a compromise. 
Even if I have the legal High ground. 
Just cause its legal does not make it right.

But I now see your point Old Vet, more rhetorical in nature.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

mpillow said:


> Nothing is free...some people fail to see the correlation of taxes and "free" healthcare.
> 
> I think everyone should read the Ferfal blog...its coming our way no doubt.


I emailed back and forth with Ferfal a few years ago,quite illuminating.

I was looking at rural properties in Argentina,he was quite adamant that no matter where in the country,there would be problems with crime.

Sad because the country is quite beautiful and European.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Not to get off topic,but how exactly is the USA better than other nations?

I often see this,but don't really see anyone state how it is better.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Where do I even start to explain? I've lived on 5 continents, and while there were good and bad things in every country, there's no place with the total combination of health standards, cost of living, low crime rates, personal privacy, and decent education of the USA. 

Many places in South America and Asia have excellent *private* health care, but the bulk of local people are treated badly with the govt health system, the crime rates are terrible, the lowest class makes up 90% of the population, illiteracy is rampant. These places are cheap for American expats, food is fresh and wonderful, maids are cheap. But there aren't any safety or pollution standards, so there are days when you can't even see across the street because of the smog. I've seen people driving cars pieced together from many models, sitting on an upturned bucket for a seat, car belching smoke, no brake lights or turn signals, and nobody cared.

Some places in Europe, the education, health care, living standards and crime/safety are wonderful, but taxes are ridiculously high, and government is involved in everything you do. No weapons of any kind, forced to sort and recycle your trash and the amount of trash you generate is dictated with penalties, vaccinations are mandatory, social workers come to your house to inspect when you bring a baby home from the hospital, a police report is filed when you take your child to the ER for an injury of any kind, and you have to register with the police every time you move to a new home. Every single things you buy has a VAT (value added tax) added to the price, which makes clothes, food, furniture at least 50% more expensive than the USA. The country where we lived was Catholic, so you had to register as Catholic or protestant when you entered, and if Catholic you automatically had 10% of your salary taken for the church. This was on top of the other taxes. Owning a car is penalized with very high taxes, to force people to use public transit. Gas lawn mowers were prohibited, you had to have an electric one with an extension cord. So the air was clean, but everything was regulated and restricted.

I could go on and on, but having lived a big portion of my life in other countries I am certain there isn't any place better than the USA for many varied reasons.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> Not to get off topic,but how exactly is the USA better than other nations?
> 
> I often see this,but don't really see anyone state how it is better.


Because its Home!


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Where do I even start to explain? I've lived on 5 continents, and while there were good and bad things in every country, there's no place with the total combination of health standards, cost of living, low crime rates, personal privacy, and decent education of the USA.
> 
> Many places in South America and Asia have excellent *private* health care, but the bulk of local people are treated badly with the govt health system, the crime rates are terrible, the lowest class makes up 90% of the population, illiteracy is rampant. These places are cheap for American expats, food is fresh and wonderful, maids are cheap. But there aren't any safety or pollution standards, so there are days when you can't even see across the street because of the smog. I've seen people driving cars pieced together from many models, sitting on an upturned bucket for a seat, car belching smoke, no brake lights or turn signals, and nobody cared.
> 
> ...



Those are interesting observations. But how recent are they? 

Things change. People talk about "freedom" and "privacy" here but both are slowly being taken away. We talk about the wonderful health care here but are something like #34 on some lists. Those of us with no health insurance and not a lot of hope of getting it don't exactly benefit from such. 

Argentina isn't exactly one of the places on my list of possible countries I'd like to call home. Doesnt' mean every other Central or South American country has the same economy or living conditions. Some are doing considerably better than others. Some are way more socialized than others. A few seem to be doing pretty well in spite of a very messed up world.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I agree that the USA has slid down towards some of the things I described in my earlier post - govt invasion of privacy, socialized medicine, higher taxes, failing public schools. It hurts my heart to know what was a free, independent, hard working country is now mired down in bureaucracy, nanny-laws and huge debt. My grandparents, who grew up during the Depression and served in WWII would be ashamed.

We came back from our last assignment overseas 10 years ago, so my opinions are dated, granted.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Bellyman said:


> Those of us with no health insurance and not a lot of hope of getting it don't exactly benefit from such.


I understand how you feel because we've been without insurance several different times. But ask our maid in Brazil what it's like to go to a public hospital when you're sick, having a baby or need surgery. We paid for her to have private care while we were there, and we still send her money to help. The only place I saw the govt healthcare work well was Austria. People paid dearly for it through their taxes, but the service was good.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Where do I even start to explain? I've lived on 5 continents, and while there were good and bad things in every country, there's no place with the total combination of health standards, cost of living, low crime rates, personal privacy, and decent education of the USA.


Not being born here and having lived elsewhere, I think the USA *was* a great place to live.

Health care is great here,as long as you can pay.

Cost of living isn't that great as wages are stagnant,and now that fuel costs have increased to closer to the rest of the world,it really shows.

Crime rate depends upon where you live and where you fall in the class structure,live in an urban area and crime is worse generally speaking.Be in the lower classes and again you might not find it quite as nice as living in a gated community or ''nice'' neighborhood.

Personal privacy?Maybe prior to 9/11,nowadays you must accept nothing electronically sent is private,or written for that matter.

The public education system is terrible here,but then hasn't been very good for decades.But the rest of the western world is trying to dumb down their children too.



> Many places in South America and Asia have excellent *private* health care, but the bulk of local people are treated badly with the govt health system, the crime rates are terrible, the lowest class makes up 90% of the population, illiteracy is rampant.


Can't almost all of that apply to the lower classes in the USA?





> But there aren't any safety or pollution standards, so there are days when you can't even see across the street because of the smog. I've seen people driving cars pieced together from many models, sitting on an upturned bucket for a seat, car belching smoke, no brake lights or turn signals, and nobody cared.


That used to be called freedom...only half joking there.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

||Downhome|| said:


> Because its Home!


Okay,but that isn't really an explanation as to why it is better.
I don't wear rose colored glasses when looking at the USA,or Australia,or anywhere really.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Ernie said:


> I asked him what he was doing to preserve his financial assets from inflation and he said, "I convert my money from the Argentine peso to the American dollar." (At this point I realized I wasn't really talking to the smartest cookie ever.)


You should have caught on back at: "He wants to move to Chicago"


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> Okay,but that isn't really an explanation as to why it is better.
> I don't wear rose colored glasses when looking at the USA,or Australia,or anywhere really.


True but enough reason for me.

Really everything else is subjective.

Good for me may not be good for you, and vice versa...

Best place to live, well plenty of water (at least where I'm at) Fertile Farm land as far as the eye can see, pretty diverse cultural base, a some what open economy so if you want you can financially better yourself, very few poisonous things, not too many man eating things, we have a variety of climates, a few things I can think of...


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> Okay,but that isn't really an explanation as to why it is better.
> I don't wear rose colored glasses when looking at the USA,or Australia,or anywhere really.


Try to live their and tell us then. You are wearing blinders when you talk about another country. The Bill of Rights is enough to make me live here.You don't find them in other countries. I have relatives in in Great Briton and Australia and they all want move here after a long visit.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

The Bill Of Rights?
Does the fedgov actually follow that anymore?



By the way,I am originally from Australia,still have family there,as well as in the UK.

I just don't ignore how far down the toilet this nation has gone in the past twenty years and it doesn't look like it will get better.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> The Bill Of Rights?
> Does the fedgov actually follow that anymore?
> 
> 
> ...


Yes they do if you stand your ground. If you don't they will run all over you.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

How is NSA spying not violating the 4th Amendment?
How is the targeted killing of US citizens not Unconstitutional?
How is being forced to buy health insurance not Unconstitutional?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> The Bill Of Rights?
> Does the fedgov actually follow that anymore?
> 
> 
> ...


Oz , Born and bred here, You being from down under is one reason you may not of felt what was in my one post. You wanted more,understandable. Actually admirable that you even questioned.

There is a saying, "I love my country but Fear my Government" , well I would voice that slightly different, I'm aware of the political atmosphere... 

That saying says it all, do not confuse True Americans with the Criminals that have infiltrated our Government. 

There's a intangible thing that real Americans posses.

If your an Aussie, Born and bred; you should have a bit of what I speak!

A will to survive, but also some common decency,at least a bit of common sense.. if not a measure, good Nature and willing to extend one self for a just cause. 

It not just that but so much more,like I said intangible.

Fortunately the criminals can't just out and out side step certain things, or they will be called for what they are.

See my post on jury nullification.

If we the people nullify bad law at the court room, what are their options then?

I always thought it the Judges that ran the country,but if they can't render a verdict... nothing more then a bench warmer aye? 

Of coarse the criminals already have done away with due process,you can be picked up and held indefinitely??? 

Just hasn't happened enough, but seems similar to else where, odd huh?

Yup Don't confuse American Sons and Daughters for the scum in charge.

Of coarse you don't have to be born and bred here, just posses that thing that makes a American True!

they poke and prod but they will hit the end of their rope , when depends on how bold that fox is...


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> How is NSA spying not violating the 4th Amendment?
> How is the targeted killing of US citizens not Unconstitutional?
> How is being forced to buy health insurance not Unconstitutional?


All you need to do is to bring them to court. But you don't have reason to since you were not affected by any of that. Now if you think that buying health insurance is unconstitutional and you are taxed you may have a case. I am in agreement with all you said but I don't have a case yet.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

As the government would not tell you if you were being spied upon,it does make it rather difficult to bring suit.


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## firestick (Oct 19, 2008)

Downhome
Well spoken.
You have expressed many of the things I feel about MY country (Canada) extremely well. We have a rich history of freedom as well. Unfortunately the scumbag politicians are doing their best to change that. No matter what party they may belong to they ARE all socialist and all believe in tax and spend. There does not seem to be any realization that the golden goose is running out of eggs.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Same here friend, same here... and thank you!


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