# Inbreeding vs line breeding....



## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

Hello.... I have a question and thought I'd better start a new forum instead of asking on my other post. 
Can you all explain to me a bit about breeding. My husband is looking into the Texas gene master. We have a small herd. All full bred myotonic. Two active does, Trouble and Cadence. Trouble is four, and due any day. Cadence is 2, and due next month. We have cadences kids, 8 month old Daisy, and Dexter. Then we have our 3 year old buck, Cisco. 
Cisco is dad to the kids daisy and Dexter. And is the sire to trouble and cadence's current pregnancies. 
When trouble kids, we will most likely sell her babies, later of course. Then later this year she will breed with Dexter. Because there's no relation. Well also sell cadences buckling if she has one. Here's my question. What is the difference between line breeding and inbreeding?
What is ok, and good, vs what is not?

I've heard granddaughter to grandfather. Daughter to father. But not son to mother and not brother to sister. Obviously.....
However, even granddaughter to grandfather seems a bit to closely related....
Please help me with this. Thank you.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

They always say it's linebreeding if it works inbreeding if it doesn't. The only real no no is full siblings. (and some people do that) that's because they are closer genetically then sire/daughter, dam/son, . Just be ready to cull. You can concentrate all the good or you can concentrate all the bad. Remember the movie Twins with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

Hmm.. I was thinking I had better buy another buck to breed with. But at that point, I'd have to get a new buck every couple years. Cull means to kill right? I got beautiful babies from Cisco and cadence last year. Perfect. Teets were great, testical sacs were perfect. Both kids had blue eyes, polled, Moonspots.... High fainting degree...moms miniature stature...
.that's why I kept both, because they had great traits. 

Trouble, has brown eyes, low fainting numbers, but is polled. I bread her with Cisco, hoping these kids....due anyday....would carry his traits, instead of her brown eyes and height. Fingers crossed.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No, cull does not mean kill.  You can dispose of less that perfect-for-your-herd milk goats by selling them to someone with different needs. 

I can't milk cone shaped teats. I sold/culled a lovely goat with cone teats, and she's doing well in another herd.

The reason my farm name is Quirky Goat Farm is that my original three goats came from a forum member who needed good homes for some goats who no longer fit her needs. I got a one teated Alpine, a self sucking LaMancha, and an unbred yearling Nubian. All registered and tested and great goats, but definitely a quirky group.


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## dozedotz (Dec 12, 2012)

An excellent well known breeder told us that if you want to "set" good traits, then you want to "line breed.' She also said that if it does not work out, it is "inbreeding." I think that the grandfather to granddaughter is a good way to go myself. I certainly wouldn't do brother to sister (but the well known breeder would...and has with great success!


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

I have had great successes with father/daughter, Gfather/Gdaughter breedings, and junk from an accidental full sibling breeding.


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## Clovers_Clan (Jul 17, 2012)

A lot also depends how closely bred parents are to begin with. Two mixed breed siblings are as likely to have as many hetero genes when crossed as a granddaughter/grandfather crossing of heavily concentrated lines. The difference is that, hopefully, in the line bred goats someone has been culling for generations for bad traits.


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## Frosted Mini's (Nov 29, 2012)

I do not see that a father/daughter or mother/son is any less related than full siblings. The genetics says otherwise. Either way, they share 1/2 their genetics with the mate.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I figure that, with judicious linebreeding, you stand about the same chances of getting good stock as you do with "regular" breeding. 

I bred daughter back to father and got two unimpressive kids. Both father and daughter were very nice Nubians (father was my favorite buck), but the results were just "meh."

You do your best planning, you toss the dice, you see what you get.


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## SJSFarm (Jun 13, 2012)

A friend told me about the 'triangle'

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/83-6/alice_g_hall/

I'm going to work this up for mine when I get the chance.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

I think the safest way to line breed is breed at least two generations away. 

Sooo.... You have a doe.... She has a daughter, the daughter has a son, the son breeds his great grandma. I think that is the best way to linebreed. I am actually doing a linebreeding next year even closer than that..... But not so close there will be any deformities


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

CadesLilFarm said:


> I think the safest way to line breed is breed at least two generations away.
> 
> Sooo.... You have _*a doe*_.... She has a daughter, the daughter has a son, the son breeds his great grandma. I think that is the best way to linebreed. I am actually doing a linebreeding next year even closer than that..... But not so close there will be any deformities


Wouldn't this *doe* would be the grandma?


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

aart said:


> Wouldn't this *doe* would be the grandma?



Sorry.... I messed that up. 

You have a doe, she has a dughter, the daughter has another daughter, the last daughter has a son, the son breeds his great great grandma. Thats how I feel comfortable linebreeding.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Sorry.... I messed that up.
> 
> You have a doe, she has a dughter, the daughter has another daughter, the last daughter has a son, the son breeds his great great grandma. Thats how I feel comfortable linebreeding.



That would take forever lol. I like the idea of the line breeding being so far back, but it would take me three years to get there. My doe has a daughter now that is four months away from breeding. Plus gestation, that nine months to a year before she produces a kid, if its a girl, then I have another year a half before she produces a buckling, then about six months after that he could breed with great grandma. Its certainly something to consider in that amount of time...but with three girls, two actively breeding, one of almost age, and only her dad and her full sibling to breed to, I have to figure something out soon. 

Thanks for the advice though...its definitely something I would like to do. Maybe I just need to buy more goats from another line. However I'm thinking I want Boer/Kilo's or Lamancha's also


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

I did a little reserach into this... You have a doe, she has a daughter, the daughter has a buck, the buck can breed his gmaw. I thibk it would be pretty safe that way


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## LomahAcres (Jan 21, 2007)

It is my understanding that line breedings is when you breed up or down the family line/tree - parents to kids or grand kids etc. And inbreeding is when you cross over and breed sideways on the family tree - full, half, quarter siblings etc. I have also heard the term crossbreeding for use of when both are done - say a doe is bred to her sisters grandson - so you've gone both ways, over and down. Although usually it's just called lined breeding as crossbreeding gets confusing with terms according to actual breeds. Whether or not any of these terms are 'correct' is beyond me, just from what I've picked up through discussions here and there.


Genetically you consider kids to be 50% their sire and 50% their dam. Hence - siblings would be of the exact same genes. Breeding a doe back to her father - who is 50% of each of his parents increases some genes while breeding out others (in this case the dam's side). Breeding siblings allows no change in the genes.


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Um., excuse my ignorance, but I thought "Texas gene master" was a Kiko boer cross?. It is based on a foundation of three-eighths Kiko and five-eighths Boer.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

You are absolutely right, Texas gene master is a Boer kiko cross. I must not have made that clear, but that's what well be doing we have our fainter but will be soon buying the Boer and kiko to do that and also a Lamancha.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

LFRJ said:


> Um., excuse my ignorance, but I thought "Texas gene master" was a Kiko boer cross?. It is based on a foundation of three-eighths Kiko and five-eighths Boer.




I like to jump around in my head a lot, sometimes it all comes out faster then my thought.lol....four posts up I talked about wanting the cross, but I guess I failed to mention it in the first post


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

LFRJ said:


> Um., excuse my ignorance, but I thought "Texas gene master" was a Kiko boer cross?. It is based on a foundation of three-eighths Kiko and five-eighths Boer.



No... It is a fainting boer cross right?


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## poppypatchFarm (Jun 8, 2012)

Inbreeding/line-breeding can work out very well if you are working with the right lines and they don't share any major faults. We have done quite a few half sibling breedings with some line-bred beyond the half sibling connection. 
We have a ND doe listed as 13.82% inbred(by ADGA genetics site) who is currently our best doe. She has been best of breed every time shown so far(7x). She finished her championship in a single day at a 3-ring show with 38 milkers shown and only 8 days after freshening. She took all 3 rings again a month later at another show in champion challenge again with 30+ does and then again a couple months later at fair. 3 judges have told me they could not find any fault with her. Her biggest fault is probably that she is tall-right on the upper limit. Her sire and dam have the same dam who also has an impressive show record with 11 BOB and 4 BIS. 
We purchased a buck last year from a half sibling pairing off another equally accomplished doe. ADGA genetics says he is 12.5% inbred.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

poppypatchFarm said:


> Inbreeding/line-breeding can work out very well if you are working with the right lines and they don't share any major faults. We have done quite a few half sibling breedings with some line-bred beyond the half sibling connection.
> We have a ND doe listed as 13.82% inbred(by ADGA genetics site) who is currently our best doe. She has been best of breed every time shown so far(7x). She finished her championship in a single day at a 3-ring show with 38 milkers shown and only 8 days after freshening. She took all 3 rings again a month later at another show in champion challenge again with 30+ does and then again a couple months later at fair. 3 judges have told me they could not find any fault with her. Her biggest fault is probably that she is tall-right on the upper limit. Her sire and dam have the same dam who also has an impressive show record with 11 BOB and 4 BIS.
> We purchased a buck last year from a half sibling pairing off another equally accomplished doe. ADGA genetics says he is 12.5% inbred.



Can I see a picture of that doe?!?!? (And can I buy her....... Not reallly. I wish!!! LOL!)


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## poppypatchFarm (Jun 8, 2012)

This was her the day she finished her championship 8 days fresh. And a photo of a younger buckling from the same breeding. Repeated the breeding last year and got quad bucklings but all were very nice and consistent. The breeding is repeated again for this year in May. 

One of the early AGS champion foundation does who goes way back in almost every current day Nigerian's lines was the product of a full sibling breeding. Not sure if it was intentional but guess it worked out well. Full siblings would be a little too close for comfort for me.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

poppypatchFarm said:


> This was her the day she finished her championship 8 days fresh. And a photo of a younger buckling from the same breeding. Repeated the breeding last year and got quad bucklings but all were very nice and consistent. The breeding is repeated again for this year in May.
> 
> One of the early AGS champion foundation does who goes way back in almost every current day Nigerian's lines was the product of a full sibling breeding. Not sure if it was intentional but guess it worked out well. Full siblings would be a little too close for comfort for me.



She is gorgeous!


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Beautiful Nanny. Nice looking buckling too


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

Wouldn't you know with my luck, I posted this, and then yesterday I found out that my nine month old doe is pregnant. An oops pregnancy that I don't know when it happened, our by who. Either her dad or brother. I'm freaking out that if its her dad, the babies will be too big and she'll die, and if its her brother, the baby will be mutated.....ugh


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Miranda why would the babies be too big if they are from her dad? Her dad and brother carry the same genetics so the babies from either buck should throw the same size. Just because her brother is smaller right now doesn't mean he won't throw the same size kids as his sire. Not trying to scare you because I am sure you doe will have the kids just fine but I was just curious why you think there will be a size difference .

Justine
ps: I am not 100% sure all kids born out of a brother/sister breeding will have issues so someone else hopefully will jump in who is MUCH better at genetics than me.


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## GraceAlice (Jun 7, 2013)

Miranda, there is nothing you can do, so don't freak yourself out. I'm sure she'll be fine.  be prepared but don't expect a horrid outcome, lol. I think you are stressed enough! Good luck and best wishes. 

Like I said, I had a 30 pound doe get pregnant by a 100 pound buck. Babies were very small and easy for her to deliver at 10 months old. I also had a doe get pregnant at 5 months old, she was 20 pounds or so, by her half brother who was 70 pounds. Tiny, healthy buckling she had with no assistance. So it's not the end of the world, lol.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

I swear,I can't handle anymore stress lol. I was talking with the breeder I bought them all from. She said don't feed her anymore grain so the babies won't grow big, but I don't want her to get ketosis out whatever from the lack of nutrition. And I considered what you said about the genes. I'm hoping that's a huge factor in this. But I am also being told I should abort and that dad is too big. And that I've royally messed up...which I already know that. I have also been told that she will tear badly and the baby won't survive and she could end up sterile if not dead. Also that she will need a c section....the closest vet is an hour away on a good day. I will be watching her closely until she kids. She had that mucous drip almost three weeks ago. 

I'm not trying to annoy by freaking out, I'm just trying to collect all the odds vs stories of success. Cattle panels were not good fences with her.:what:


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## GraceAlice (Jun 7, 2013)

The last month is actually when they need the most grain I thought?

Who is telling you all of this? Whoever is telling you that needs to hurry up and quit. Sure, it's not all daisies and ponies, but it's fairly common and most goats don't die from it. Sounds like the person telling you these horrid stories is just trying to give you worst case scenarios to scare you. 

I would never abort this far in the game. I think that's cruel for the doe and the poor babies. When that due aborts, she is so far along that she would probably get depressed and cry for days because she wants her babies back. I also think you would have to give her a huge dose of lutalyse to even attempt it. 

Will the vet come out to your place? Maybe he could come over and supervise when she goes into real labor? 

I'm sorry about all of this crud being thrown to you! You're not annoying at all, I just know you mentioned health problems and that you most likely don't need to be stressing so much over your goats!


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

The vet won't do a house call this far out. If he does he said I'm looking at upwards of 250$ just for the drive.
I would not abort...at all. Its cruel and unethical. 
And I'm not going to drop her feed. I'll pray for the best.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Do you have a knowledgeable goat vet near by? If you do I would get a hold of them and explain the situation. Honestly I think the breeder is going overboard but I can't see the animals in person so I don't know how much larger the sire is to his daughter.

That being said I did have two 10 month old does kid out who where bred by their 200+lb sire and they did JUST fine. Yes they tore a bit but you know what? They would have torn a bit even if they kidded out as a 2yr old because it was their first time.

I will be praying for the best for you and your little girl. I know how scary it is (I remember being FREAKED when I found out my two had been bred) but goats are hardier than we think. Also we are all here for you right behind you the whole way. 

Do you have an idea of when your girl got bred? I wouldn't stop giving her grain BUT I wouldn't be giving her tons either. If you have a time frame that she might have been bred that can help . If it helps at all I can PM you my cell for a just in case situation that you can't get a hold of a vet or you need answers right away.

Justine


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## GraceAlice (Jun 7, 2013)

Yikes! That's a tad bit steep, lol. 

I completely understand. I wouldn't abort even if she was 2 months pregnant. I know some people would do it in a heartbeat but I was and never will be like that. 

I will too! Good luck Miranda!


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## sn4k3grl (Feb 25, 2014)

MirandaT said:


> if its her brother, the baby will be mutated.....ugh


In the wild, animals mate daughter to father and brother to sister frequently as there are no humans to tell them what not to do :happy2: . The babies will not be mutated, e.g. three heads, extra legs, etc. What could happen, is that less desirable traits will show up in the offspring. This is because the genetic material of the siblings or parent/daughter are much more similar than if your goat and the one from your neighbors farm bred. In the later scenario, the genes for the bad traits might still be there, but they could be covered up by other dominant genetics. If you are breeding your goats as pets or don't intend to show/hold to a breed standard, the offspring will be just fine. If you are breeding to a standard, than this pairing may alert you to genetic problems (again, not mutant goats, just breed standard faults) that you otherwise would not have know about. 
Here are a few links about linebreeding and inbreeding (I know the first one deals with cattle and the last two deal with rabbits, but the genetic principals are the same  :
http://www.lasaterranch.com/breedingprogram.htm 
http://www.hlrsc.com/Articles/breedingandculling.html
http://buksonline.com/rabbit-line-breeding-chart/

Best Luck!


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

sn4k3grl said:


> In the wild, animals mate daughter to father and brother to sister frequently as there are no humans to tell them what not to do :happy2: . The babies will not be mutated, e.g. three heads, extra legs, etc. What could happen, is that less desirable traits will show up in the offspring. This is because the genetic material of the siblings or parent/daughter are much more similar than if your goat and the one from your neighbors farm bred. In the later scenario, the genes for the bad traits might still be there, but they could be covered up by other dominant genetics. If you are breeding your goats as pets or don't intend to show/hold to a breed standard, the offspring will be just fine. If you are breeding to a standard, than this pairing may alert you to genetic problems (again, not mutant goats, just breed standard faults) that you otherwise would not have know about.
> Here are a few links about linebreeding and inbreeding (I know the first one deals with cattle and the last two deal with rabbits, but the genetic principals are the same  :
> http://www.lasaterranch.com/breedingprogram.htm
> http://www.hlrsc.com/Articles/breedingandculling.html
> ...


Thank you for clearing that up for me! I have heard of babies having issues from brother/sister matings but not mutants. But sometimes what I heard is they can have health issues or something along those lines. No clue how factual that is considering I never have dealt with it myself.

Justine


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## GraceAlice (Jun 7, 2013)

Actually, now that I think about it, people breed brother/sister rabbits all the time. I'm going to breed related rabbits to bring out traits. I'll be breeding half siblings this year on purpose. I've been told over and over that it can bring out weird traits but not mutations unless they were already present in the genetics. I guess it is the same with goats!


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## sn4k3grl (Feb 25, 2014)

No problem! People have a really bad habit of ascribing human attributes to animals, especially when it comes to things like breeding. Most really good breeders of animals will linebreed to some extent and if done carefully, it can be a wonderful tool to build up a genetic line. 

Let's take a pure bred dog for example. The reason that health problems show up more in pure breds than in muts is because show standards are so stringent that some breeders try and breed to standard based on looks alone, rather than considering the health of the animal and all of it's offspring. Really good breeders will take standard and health into consideration. The AKC actually has a list of "foundation stock" breeds so that by outcrossing and genetic diversity can get back into pure bred lines. 

On the flip side, if you take a look at the first link I posted, about the cattle, the owners of that herd have been selecting for hardy and prolific cattle rather than outward appearance. Their herd has been going strong for at least 50 years and they do not let new cattle into their population. This is an extreme case of line breeding but is a lot more similar to the processes in the natural world. In nature, small populations of animals (maybe separated by geographical or man made boundaries) would breed in a similar way. But nature would not let animals with bad or unhealthy traits survive and pass those traits on to offspring. 

Another really extreme case of line breeding occurs in lab rats used for research. In some of these cases, inferior genetics are actually the goal so medical testing can be done. So the rats are kept in special environments that will allow animals with weakened immune systems or genetic anomalies to survive. If these animals got out into the wild, they would not survive. While some of them might breed and pass unhealthy traits on to their offspring, after a few generations, the unhealthy traits would most likely be whipped out of the population.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

I love you guys so much

I am beginning to feel a lot better. I just hate to lose my girl because I'm an irresponsible goat owner

Boooo


I really appreciate all the love and support..

You guys are awesome.


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

GoldenWood Farm said:


> Do you have a knowledgeable goat vet near by? If you do I would get a hold of them and explain the situation. Honestly I think the breeder is going overboard but I can't see the animals in person so I don't know how much larger the sire is to his daughter.
> 
> That being said I did have two 10 month old does kid out who where bred by their 200+lb sire and they did JUST fine. Yes they tore a bit but you know what? They would have torn a bit even if they kidded out as a 2yr old because it was their first time.
> 
> ...





No idea when she got pregnant. She has a small bag, and lost her mucous plug on the 5th of this month.


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## GraceAlice (Jun 7, 2013)

Guessing she has a 3-4 weeks to go


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Can you post a picture of her udder and her back end? It might give us a bit more to go with time wise . Not always but it is worth a shot .

I have to laugh at the breeder saying you where a irresponsible goat owner. Only because I don't know ANYBODY who hasn't made mistakes or had an oops breeding happen and I would hardly call them a irresponsible goat owner for life happening. Anyways keep your chin up and don't what that breeder said get you down. I think you are doing great with all your herd and judging by the photos they are very well taken care of.

Have you tape measured your young doe to see how big she is weight wise to her mom? In the photo is looks like your doe is maybe only 30+lbs off from her mom in size and maybe even less. So I am very curious to see how much she really weighs in comparison to her mom .

Justine


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

Tried to get the very best photos I could. She acts like a wild maniac the last couple months. Wont let me touch her unless shes eating. Bag is small. But def there. I tried to move the hair to show you.....Cheap camera, bad lighting...it is what is is:facepalm:

1st pic is of dad and brother....


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## GraceAlice (Jun 7, 2013)

Is her udder tight? I would immediately start checking ligs.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

I would say judging off her udder and her vulva you are looking at another week or a little more but yes check her ligs. I would start keeping a very close eye one her if she was my doe.

She isn't a huge doe from the photos but I think she will be okay . I will be praying for you and her that everything works out well. One of my 10 month old does that kidded out that one time was small for her age and I was a wreck thinking she would have issues. She had a text book delivery with twins and did just fine .

Justine


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Just getting a totally unrelated buck is no guarantee the kids will be good. I bought a beautiful, buck several years back with outstanding bloodlines that should have done wonderfully with my does. It was a total train wreck. Out of 13 doelings I have ONE that was any good at all. Her twin looked great until she kidded. She is culled to the freezer because I wouldn't sell anybody such an animal. The twin I kept is fantastic, but I wouldn't keep a buck from her for anything, they all get banded. So far she has only had bucks. The last buck I had gave me some lovely doelings and some fine bucklings and I retained a buckling. Waiting to see how the does do when they are bred. I bought a new, unrelated buckling this yr. Hoping to hop scotch the breedings and not buy another buck for a long time. (I didn't breed the 8 yrling does because they were too young, they'll be bred along with this yrs 5, come fall.)


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## MirandaT (Dec 31, 2012)

I was lifting up and back on the hair to get a pic of the udder. No its not tight yet, and still just a tiny thing....but that doesn't mean squat. Could blow up to be huge and full within days. idk. And her ligs are still there, very hard and tight. Will be watching her very close. She's about the same size as her brother, so you can see the size differences.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

Frosted Mini's said:


> I do not see that a father/daughter or mother/son is any less related than full siblings. The genetics says otherwise. Either way, they share 1/2 their genetics with the mate.


Brother/sister would share all the same genetics (same parents), while mother/son would only share 50%, correct?


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## sn4k3grl (Feb 25, 2014)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Brother/sister would share all the same genetics (same parents), while mother/son would only share 50%, correct?


A son would share 50% of his mother's genetics. The resulting offspring would be 75% of the mother's genetics and 25% of the son's father's genetics. 

In a brother/sister pairing (F1 generation), each individual has 50% of their parent's (P generation) genetics. The resulting offspring (F2 generation) would also have 50% of the P genetics, but only 25% of the P mother and 25% of the P father's genetics would come from each F1 individual.

I hope that makes sense. If not, please let me know.


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