# Holy Horse Drama, batman! Who's telling the truth??



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I normally try to stay out of other people's drama but holy cow, this one is a doozy. I'm about ready to drop out of the whole horse world entirely, I'm telling you! I'm not saying I'm getting rid of my horses but maybe I'll just stay away from horse people. Fortunately I've already arranged to bring my filly to a trainer for the winter and we're about halfway done building the facilities so I can have my horses living with me starting next Spring.

I'll cut to the chase before I tell the whole story in case you don't want to read the soap opera. What it boils down to is this - is this yearling colt's right knee going to make him unsound to ride? I've attached pictures - he looks a little skinny now, he got that way after he moved to Nora's.


Here's the story. I'll change names to protect the "innocent". I was working in Betty Breeder's barn when her friend rescued a malnourished pregnant arab. Betty looked at the blood lines of the mare and the sire and really liked the blood lines so she agreed to provide boarding and nutrition, until the foal was weaned, if she could have the foal.

The foal was born and I saw him just about every day but I'd only been into horses one year and didn't know much. Betty immediately suspected something might be wrong with his right knee but she thought maybe he was just a little stiff - it wasn't deformed looking, but he was walking a little weird. Over the next 2-3 months it became increasingly apparent there was something majorly wrong with the knee. It became very swollen and started bowing outward. She called in an expert (I was there when he came - he wasn't a vet but another experienced breeder). I couldn't really understand everything he was saying but I think he said it was "epiphysitis?" Maybe that's not what he said, maybe I heard that word somewhere else but I'm pretty sure that's what he said. He told her it was caused by the mare being malnourished when she was pregnant and said that if she provided correct nutrition and exercises it would correct itself as the colt grew and that he would most likely be sound but he couldn't make any guarantees. He showed her some exercises to do to help it straighten out.

Betty didn't want to keep the colt anyway. She'd been hoping for a filly and didn't want another stallion. So she provided the necessities and planned on just giving the colt away because she didn't want her name smeared all over town if she sold him and he turned out not to be sound.

Betty also had a mare for sale for cheap because she was flat footed and had "a little wobble" in one of her back legs. She'd been free leasing her for a couple of years to a girl who was riding her but then the girl had a baby or something and couldn't ride her so she brought her back. To me - the fact that she was being ridden proves she's sound. Right?

So....along comes Nora Newbie, wanting to buy "Flatfoot Wobble." Nora Newbie wasn't only new to horses, but entirely new to country life and to our tiny community. Betty kept sending Nora away, telling her that if she was new to horses she didn't know what she was getting herself into and that she needed to spend some time around horses before she bought one of her own. Nora just kept coming back - like 4 times she came back wanting to buy Flatfoot Wobble. Nora told Betty that she was going to buy a horse whether or not Betty thought it was a good idea and that Betty could sell her Flatfoot or Nora would look elsewhere. Nora didn't have the $ to buy a full-price horse and Flatfoot was only $200 and very pretty and Nora really wanted her. Betty told her that Flatfoot was flatfooted and had a little wobble.

Finally, Betty reluctantly agreed to sell Flatfoot to Nora but only on the condition that she would board her there and get lessons. She gave her an extremely good deal on boarding (like - $50 or $100 a month), and free lessons, with the agreement that Nora would clean stalls and Betty would teach her how to safely work with the horses on the ground and Nora wouldn't get on a horse until Betty said she was ready. So that's what they did and it turned out that Nora was very afraid of Flatfoot. She was very intimidated by her size and it wasn't working out at all for her and I think she even started to talk about selling Flatfoot. Right away she started suspecting that Betty had sold her a horse that wasn't broke, which I guess is something newbies frequently suspect and is one of the reasons people don't like to sell to newbies.

So - Betty said "why don't you spend some time with Wonky Knee here. He's small and he can't hurt you and maybe you can get over your fear of horses if we work with him together." So that's what they did and throughout the whole process Betty made it clear to Nora that Wonky Knee had a wonky knee and might never be sound. Then Nora's daughter came and started playing with him and they both fell in love with him and his leg got a lot straighter until the problem was practically invisible and Betty said she thought it looked like he would probably turn out fine and be sound when he finished growing.

And here's where it gets iffy. Betty gave Wonky Knee to Nora for free, to board there. I think she charged her a total of $100 a month for both horses. Then Nora got tired of cleaning stalls and decided she'd learned everything she needed to learn about horses and decided to bring them both home to her house. Betty couldn't talk her out of it. She built a paddock and a place to store hay (which is leaking now, and the hay is getting moldy) and decided to bring the horses home.

Then Michelle the Massage Therapist moved next door. It just so happens that my daughter in law is best friends with Michelle's daughter, and told me "Whatever you do, don't fall for any of Michelle's crap. She doesn't have friends. She pretends to be a person's friend and then she stabs them in the back and ruins their life and moves on. She seems like a good person but she's not." 

So - Michelle started showing up at Betty's and I kept my mouth shut and observed, but I didn't let Michelle massage my horses and made excuses to not be at the barn when Michelle was there.

It wasn't long before Michelle made friend's with Betty's competition and arch enemy, 4-H Fiona. When Betty Breeder referred her boarders to Michelle for massage therapy for their horses, in an effort to help Michelle build her new horse business, Michelle went behind Betty's back and told all of Betty's clients what a rotten person Betty is - that she's not feeding her horses correctly and that she is the worst farrier she has ever met (Betty's also a professional farrier, went to college for it).

When Nora took her horses home, Michelle and 4-H Fiona showed up at her house being super friendly and "helpful" and they have Nora convinced that Betty scammed her. They are saying that Wonky Knee will absolutely positively never be sound, that Betty knew this from day one, and that Betty deliberately gave her a messed up horse. They are also saying that Flatfoot Wobble will absolutely positively never be sound, that it's impossible that she ever could have been sound, and that Betty deliberately sold her an unsound horse. They even brought their friend the farrier over to verify it and he told Nora that Flatfoot has "very thin soles and no concavity to her feet" and he told Nora that the entire foot problem was caused by terrible foot trimming and that Betty had actually totally ruined Flatfoot's feet and they would have been fine if she hadn't been the one trimming them.

Now Nora's got Wonky Knee advertised for free and she says if nobody takes him, she's bringing him to the auction. She's got Flatfoot advertised for $200 OBO. I've tried to convince Nora that she needs to get an unbiased opinion but she is now accusing me of being in cahoots with Betty in trying to cheat her by getting her to take two messed up horses. 

To add insult to injury, Nora is also trying to get someone to sell her a very high quality filly they bought from Betty. Betty is telling these people not to sell to Nora, because the two horses she sold Nora are now malnourished and the colt hasn't grown at all, her hay is moldy, and her horses don't have any shelter. An all-out war has just been declared in Horse Land. Everybody has ganged up on Betty and they're all saying I'm an idiot for not seeing what a scammer she is.

Either she's a sociopathic liar - the most dishonest person I've ever met - or she's telling the truth. Because she had me convinced every single day, since the very first day that Nora showed up and she sent her away, that she was trying to do what was best for the horses and for Nora.

Now I very much understand why people on this board warned me to take it slow before I got into the horse world, and also why experienced horse people tend to not appreciate newbies much. Good grief.

I think Betty's being honest, although it's never a good idea to sell a yearling to a newbie. I guess Michelle has contacted my daughter-in-law and is asking her why we're putting up this new electric fence at my house. DIL didn't answer her. It's for my horses when I exit drama world in the spring, but DIL is telling her it's for rhinoserouses. Rhinoseri? 

Opinions?


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Looking at pictures is almost an impossible way to tell if there is anything actually wrong with the knee or not. I can tell you however that the colt looks very thin and needs some good feed in him to gain weight and grow correctly. 

The right front knee looks slightly enlarged, but too many shadows to tell anything for certain.

Hope they both go to a good home. Where are they located?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I'd really like to keep our location anonymous to avoid doing further harm to Betty's reputation, aoconnor, but I'd like them to go to good homes too.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I hate to even let my thoughts wander any way in this direction - but I'm going to be looking for an endurance horse and maybe I could take Wonky Knee. I'm no horse expert, though, and there's no way I could tell if his knee is OK or not.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Even in forums like this, there is way too much drama and self righteousness. Way too many people use horses as an emotional crutch or even emotional tranquilizers. Your drama is totally typical.
You should have seen the hissy fit at one barn I boarded where one woman pulled a fire hose off the wall to dowse another in an argument. Fantasies are common.
Having a wall of insulation helps. 

I can see in the picture the colt is bowlegged. It depends on why as to whether he can recover. I have seen drop dead gorgeous straight legs in a colt of 6 months turn into horrors at 2 years and wonky kids legs straighten amazingly. Epiphysitis is an inflamation of the growing end of the bone in young horse. IIt can cause the legs to grow unevenly. 
I don't know about it being caused by poor nutrition in the mom- I always heard it was mostly due to an over rich diet in growthy colts but my info is decades out of date. May resolve, may be a long term liabilty.
Best advice- want an endurance horse? Buy one who is already doing this.

Re: barn drama- don't get involved. Don't repeat gossip. Stay away from drama queens. Give your horse a hug and leave.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

From the pictures they look in poor condition.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

yeah - I've been dreaming of finding the perfect quarab, already trained. I think I'll stick with that dream. I feel bad for this little guy, though. Animals sure get the short end of the stick a lot of the time.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

fffarmergirl said:


> yeah - I've been dreaming of finding the perfect quarab, already trained. I think I'll stick with that dream. I feel bad for this little guy, though. Animals sure get the short end of the stick a lot of the time.


Yeah, they do. And it takes a lot to learn you can't save them all. I suppose in all my years of horses, I only 'saved' one for sure and I was stuck with him for years as I could not sell him to anyone with his many problems. He did good by me though.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It's impossible to tell by the pictures what's going on with his knee. Were there ever x-rays done? He's painfully thin in the pictures you posted, are they current? He's thinner than that now? 

Epiphysitis is a inflammation of the growth plates on long bones in young horses. The real problem is if the cartilage is going to harden because of chronic inflammation. 

Stay out of the drama. Period. Don't discuss anything with anyone. There are people, even on forums like this one, that like to poke and cause drama. Just don't engage.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Both need a bag of groceries.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

It's been a while since I saw him - these are the pics she posted in her "free horse" ad. I'm going to completely let it go now, in fact I think I'll even stop posting on this thread. I was hoping that someone would recognize the timing of when his symptoms came on and how they gradually improved and say "aha! He had _____ disease/injury and yes, he will most likely grow out of it and be sound." I'm not going to think about him anymore. I can't rescue him.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I learned a long time ago that it is never a good idea to sell to inexperienced first-time horse owners. I just simply do not do it anymore but with a boarding barn it would be more difficult, I know. As a breeder, I have more control.

There are just too many things that can go wrong and it is always the seller and/or the horse that gets the blame. I know of two specific cases in which a first-time horse owner insisted on buying way too much horse over the advice of experienced friends ... in both cases the new owner was eventually thrown off the horse and ended up with a broken back, both requiring surgery. In once case the owner sued the seller of the horse for selling a 'dangerous' animal.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

fffarmergirl said:


> I'd really like to keep our location anonymous to avoid doing further harm to Betty's reputation, aoconnor, but I'd like them to go to good homes too.


I hear you and understand completely. I hope they find a great home that will take them o matter what they are or aren't.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

"Seabiscuit (1933-1947), a grandson of the great racehorse Man O' War, was a small stallion, standing just 15.2 hands high, with short, crooked legs, and a tendency toward laziness. ... As a result of his racing success that year, and his victory over War Admiral, Seabiscuit was voted Eclipse Horse of the Year for 1938. His lifetime earnings in 1940 were $437,000. I would say that his short, crroked legs didn't hold him back. To some degree, it probably has something to do with management of the problem and the horse, judicious riding, and the nature of the problem." (taken from www.answers. com)

I am guessing that Betty did not have a written contract otherwise, she shouldn't have let the owner leave the grounds with the horses. The whole problem would have been prevented with a written contract stating the stipulations she agreed to.


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## Harmony_Meadows (Nov 4, 2007)

Is the first picture of the "flat-footed" mare?

Stay far far away from drama. Not worth the hassle. Can't wait to see pics of your Rhino!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

> I guess Michelle has contacted my daughter-in-law and is asking her why we're putting up this new electric fence at my house. DIL didn't answer her. It's for my horses


 I never have found a polite way of saying none of your business. The direct and honest answer, "It's for my horses," is good enough. They don't need to be in your business and you don't need to explain your choices to anyone.

There is nothing better than having your horses in your own yard, go have coffee and a jelly sandwich in the morning with them and spend time with your horses without other people's bs. Yes, there's always more to learn. Attend clinics and training sessions taught by many different people, and meet new people. Borrow, rent or buy DVDs and books and learn new skills WITH your horse.

I grew up with working horses. I was taught to ride by the man who trained the horses. He was also a farrier and "horse doctor" who acquired a lot of free foals who hit the ground with deformities which he started immediate correctives on. He also took the rank, "if you can load it you can have it" animals and turned them into perfectly safe, friendly mounts.

I wasn't exposed to arena, barn, show, politics, people trying to make money off horses until 15 years ago. Let it be an understatement when I say I didn't like it. Yes there are good people, they are the exception. When they found they couldn't intimidate or screw me, they decided I was "one of them" and expected my cooperation in sandbagging and screwing over others who were "not one of us." (actually said it) No I don't WANT to be one of YOU.


For $200 you have a nice starter horse to ride in your yard. Flat feet are limiting. Get lessons somewhere else, come home and practice with your horse or have a trainer willing to come to your home. If you're still a beginner rider, you're still a long ways from your endurance horse. That's a lot of horse.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Harmony_Meadows said:


> Is the first picture of the "flat-footed" mare?
> 
> Stay far far away from drama. Not worth the hassle. Can't wait to see pics of your Rhino!


No, Harmony - that's another picture of Wonky Knee. I didn't find a pic of Flatfoot to post.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

Pretty sure a contract saying you have to keep the horses you purchase with me for life and pay me to keep them would be unenforceable. 

What a mess. Stay as out of it as possible. If Betty s your pal continue to be supportive of her.


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## Hexe (Mar 8, 2007)

I have no advice to offer other than already pointed out by others, but I will say that I enjoyed the terminology in your story immensly. 
"Flat Foot Wobble"? "Nora Newbie"? LOVE it. 

And yes, the animals are getting the short end of a nasty stick through no fault of their own. I discover every day that a lot of people suck.


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## Cashs Cowgirl (Jan 26, 2006)

As a gal who rides endurance already...save your money a little longer and get one that is already doing it. It will be worth it in the long run. Too many unknowns with that little fella and I wouldn't want to put all that time in, only to have it not come to fruition. Plus I would have to run far from that drama and stay far from it...I can't stand that sort of thing.


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## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

Cashs cowgirl has some very good advice. Save your money and buy something trained and proven that you can go and have fun with. It will be well worth the wait.

That's what I am doing right now too. And I also cannot stand that kind of drama!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I guess I really don't understand people at all. They're all friends again. I've always been the sort of person who cut friendships off completely as soon as someone started talking crap about me and stabbing me in the back. That's probably why I never have any female friends, but in my old age I've become more forgiving. Not more trusting - just more accepting of the fact that people seem to be generally dishonest and backstabbing. That doesn't make them evil, just weak.

I will definitely wait and find a trained endurance horse - once I get to be a good enough rider to trust myself on one. I was pretty proud of myself on Al today. He had a major spook and I handled it fine then made him walk back and forth through the area where he spooked. Then we were trotting and he broke into a fast canter and I decided to let him canter a while, for once, since it was a nice even area, but he tripped. I did not go flying. Yay me. I'm not sure if he ended up all the way down on one knee or if the knee just almost touched the ground but it was a major trip. I was afraid he was going to do a somersault. Fortunately he does not appear to be injured. I wonder how a rider could avoid getting injured during a somersault? Hopefully I'll never have to find out. By the way this all happened when I had my spurs on and I _still_ did not accidentally spur him. Yeah....I'm pretty proud of me


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

They sound typically psycho... I don't have female friends either.
Good for you! Nothing like a horse tripping to scare the CRAP out of you. I'd rather have one buck than trip any day.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

"Typically Psycho" lol!


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## Cashs Cowgirl (Jan 26, 2006)

horse tripping...oh holy heck do I know how that feels! months of physical therapy and almost a year before I could saddle a tall horse (I couldnt lift the saddle above my shoulders). Are you on the AERC page or the Endurance Tack and Horse sale page on facebook fffarmergirl? Many horses for sale there. You can find seasoned ones or ones that have been started. If it were my first one, I'd go with seasoned one (that doesn't need to continuously ride in a martingale). Training needs to be solid on giving to the bit and staying soft. Excitement is one thing, but that can be worked with. I refuse to have my arms pulled on because they won't listen.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

when I was a kid I was taught how to crash...sometimes you grab leather, sometimes you bale. hard part is knowing which is what. course learning to know which is what also teaches you to be an excellent horseman with a secure seat and confidence to stick and calm most sticky situations...which most horses, when ridden by a confident sensitive fair kind horseman don't(usually) devolve into messes. ah the magic of learning to fall off relatively safely 

also invaluable is the one rein emergency stop/channeling flight into a small circle. again takes thoughtful balance and application, you can flip a horse if done wrong or mess up his mouth. hopefully you can find someone to show you how, dont' try it blind. but again, this is an invaluable skill which again will teach you other things about riding and feeling a horse beyond stopping a runaway.

good luck!!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm feeling just beyond disappointed and exhausted by the whole horse thing now. I know it will pass but I'm just so ready to give up horses altogether. They are certainly not providing any type of freedom or stress release for me right now.

The problem is that I don't like being assertive. I'm just not a naturally assertive person. I"m willing to assert myself when necessary to make a point but good lord - this nonstop demand on me to be assertive is just running me right down into the ground.

It's just battle after battle with this horse. I don't know if that's how it is with all horses or if I just have a stubborn jerk of a horse but I swear I just hate him.

Now we're working on loading and trailering. Supposedly he used to be great at loading and trailering. Whatever. He scares the bloody crap out of me when I'm trying to get him into a trailer. He always seems to be on the verge of exploding which puts me on the verge of tears, so eventually I just get out of the way and let the experts do it. It even takes them a while. My heart is in my neck and my stomach hurts the entire time we're loading, then he's stomping and rearing and throwing a fit in the freaking trailer the whole time we're driving.

The whole reason for loading him up yesterday was to bring him to a friend's house who had her farrier there, and she swears by this farrier. I wanted to see if it was true that Betty Breeder is a terrible farrier and that her awful work was causing the tripping. It wasn't, by the way - the farrier I brought him to see said his hooves were just fine.

I thought having horses was supposed to be fun, a nice break from every day reality. Every day of my life - at work and at home and everywhere else - I'm constantly being put upon to assert myself because every time I don't somebody walks all over me, taking advantage of my natural inclination to be generous. 

Horses are not helping this one little bit. Al will take advantage and walk all over me at every possible opportunity.

And I'm nonstop being told I need to "work on groundwork." Good god. How much groundwork do the two of us freaking idiots need? I hate the horse, the horse hates me. The only ground work I feel like doing right now involves leading him into the packing plant.

It's like being in an abusive relationship.

Zippy, the green broke mare I was tricked into riding, was not a jerk. She might have been reactive and sensitive but she was not a jerk. Even Ona - even though she's a two-year-old, she trailers a lot easier and she's nice and calm when we're driving.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

peace, be still


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

your blessing must have worked, wyld thang! Found a buyer for Al and moving on.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

Some horses just don't click w/their owner. And, when you have that happen, the best thing to do is to part ways. Sounds like you learned that on your own already. If you really want a horse, keep looking and don't be in a rush. When you find the right one, you'll know.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

yeah - he really did not like me. He made it clear the first time he saw me. He bullied me way more than he bullied anyone else. I must have reminded him of someone. Two people who know him offered to buy him from me today so I think that shows that he's not a bad horse.


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