# Lots of questions regarding LGDs



## StockDogLovr (Apr 13, 2009)

So, we have finally come to the conclusion that we could probably use an LGD but I have situations that may influence whether one would be right for us.

We have 40 acres fenced in four foot field fencing topped by two strands of barbed wire to increase the height. We run horses, cows and sheep together on this acreage. The fence was installed in winter when the grass was taller; now it has been eaten to the dirt (no rain, no new grass :-( ) and I am finding that in places the fence is a couple of inches above the dirt.

I hear LGDs are roamers. Would such gaps encourage an LGD to try to leave? I'd probably neuter a male so would that help keep a male home? What about the females? 

We know we have small coyotes jumping through the field fence midway (through about 6"x6" squares!) and one of our ewes lambed in the pasture a few days ago, earlier than expected, and we think the coyotes took one because she should have twinned and the one remaining was as small as other twin lambs. We have brought the ewes in to a smaller sub-fenced area for the safety of moms and new lambs, but even that fence has the same field fencing so I still worry about them. That's why I'm considering an LGD.

We have barn cats and indoor/outdoor cats that go in and out of the pasture. I imagine the dog would live out in the pasture with the stock at night and then it could come into our home area during the day for socialization with the rest of the pets. We also have free range chickens and some ducks that live within the fencing that includes our house, separate from the big pasture. Would that work? Just wondering how to get the dog used to everyone!

Is a puppy the only way we can go? I wanted to rescue one but all the LGDs I see in their respective rescues have been pets, not working dogs, and so I'm worried they wouldn't work. How old would a pup have to be before it could truly be a deterrent?

What is the smallest LGD breed? Not sure I want to feed a 120+ lb dog!

Our there any sources for finding LGDs needing working homes? It would be nice to find one that's ready to work if it is possible. We're located in California.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

A couple of inches above the dirt should not be a problem.
LGD are roamers if they don't have a guard job to do. If nothing to guard, they will go looking for something to guard.


> I imagine the dog would live out in the pasture with the stock at night and then it could come into our home area during the day for socialization with the rest of the pets.


Nope. they need to stay with their "family", their protectees 24/7. That is their job, their only job. They should be only minimally socialized with the rest of the pets and family...Remember they are a working dog, not a "pet".

A puppy would be nice, but to be truly effective against coyotes it need to be 18mos. to 2 years old. Sounds like you need something right away.

As far as feeding, I have found my Pyr to be very efficient. Now I don't feed him any canned food, he gets just a medium high grade of dry food, the same food all the time, and a few table scraps and a cooked bone or doggie treat occasionally. He will let me know how much he needs to eat. Occasionally I will fill his bowl completely full then measure how much he eats in 15 minutes or whenever he walks away.

ETA: Don't worry about the smallest of the LGD breeds. You want one that is big enough to be intimidating to predators, 2 or 4 legged variety. Personally I like fur long enough a coyote or predator can only get a mouthful of fur.

Good luck, wish you all the best...BTW I am a Pyr advocate.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Batt is correct in that the size of your browsing pastures really requires the LGD to stay with its charges 24/7.

If you're going to get an LGD large enough to protect your animals at this time, you will need to do your research carefully, find a dog or two "already" in the fields guarding and pay dearly for them.

The alternative is to get a couple of LGD puppies, socialize them well with what they will be guarding (as well as everything else you want them to be protective of) and protect them as they mature. Yes this will take time and ONE "puppy" will be defenseless alone even if it is old enough to make attempts to protect. However, if you can keep your stock closer while these pups mature, you'll have better protection when your stock is roaming all over your acreage.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Your puppy needs to be exposed to the livestock by 16 weeks old. If you are getting a puppy or dog older than that, he needs to have been exposed before you get him. So, you may be able to get a dog that has been with horses, cattle, and sheep. Even just sheep may be enough, since that who is what needs the most protection.

Contact a sheep organization and start calling, you may get lucky and find someone who has both sheep and LGD. However, you want to make sure the dog won't see the horses and cows as dangerous.

Great Pyrs aren't the only LGD's out there. Great Pyrs are great roamers, but he is unlikely to jump the fence. Great Pyrs bark alot. Their barking is meant to disrupt the stalking behavior of the predator, but they bark when there is no predator also. If barking all night would bother your family or your neighbors, look at other LGD's.


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## StockDogLovr (Apr 13, 2009)

How would you say a Maremma is different from a Great Pyr? Someone nearby has a litter of Great Pyr x Akbash due soon - but that means 8 weeks before the beginning of getting a pup old enough to guard.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You need a puppy older than 8 weeks. Any breed of great size matures slowly, and they need to be with their mother and littermates for at least 12 weeks. 

Maremma bark less than a Great Pyr or Akbash, and they are smaller.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

no an 8 week old pup is not even being close to old enough to guard. Guarding is a job for mature or near mature dogs. a coyote can easily kill an 8 week old pup. Expecting a pup to guard is like hiring a 6 year old to be a prison guard.


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## purplequeenvt (Mar 3, 2013)

Try to find a puppy that has been raised with it's parents for at least 12 weeks. An 8 week old puppy will do ok, but an older puppy that has had that extra time learning from its parents will be so much better off.

Socialize your puppy!! This is really important. Make it a "pet". I bring mine in the house frequently for visits and grooming. It will not mess up its guarding instincts. They will still learn what their job is. 

We do rotational grazing and have lots of visitors so I need my dogs to like people and be comfortable with being handled. I take my Pyrs to TSC and pet stores just to get them out and used to car rides. They are big dogs when fully grown and I don't want to deal with a 130 lb freaking out dog if I need to take it somewhere.

I wouldn't have the dog rotate between field at night and home during the day, but I'd definitely bring the dog home for visits.

As everyone else has said and I'm sure you already know - an 8 (or 12) week old puppy isn't going to be able to do anything to protect the stock. I got my female Pyr last spring at 13 weeks and slowly introduced her to the sheep. At 9 months old we still brought her and the sheep in at night. She didn't have the size or maturity to deal with predators (in our case it was a pack of coyotes).

At 16 months (about how old she'll be when the sheep are out on pasture again) she will be able to stay out all the time. I also purchased a 2nd Pyr, a male, as a partner for her. He'll be about 8 months when they are out on pasture, but since he'll be with her it will be ok to leave him out.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Maura said:


> . Great Pyrs bark alot. Their barking is meant to disrupt the stalking behavior of the predator, but they bark when there is no predator also. If barking all night would bother your family or your neighbors, look at other LGD's.


Now Maura, I must take exception to this statement.
Great Pyr's ONLY ever bark when absolutely necessary. When the wind blows, when a butterfly goes flitting by, when a plane flies over head at 5,000 feet, when a great killer wild bunny gets into the garden, you know, only when necessary.:hammer:
My two are great at letting us know when the leaves are falling from the trees......


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

ridiculous amount of barking..............

mine was worthless and a liability when young. but when she hit 11 months old she became protective. some take even longer. 

ive found that a pyr. will roam even if they do have something to guard. they will make their rounds. and then come home. but regardless they are notorious roamers.

i also would never socialize a LGD. i mistakenly let my wife baby ours a little to much. she is still great at what she does, but she is too much attached to the family. she'd rather be with us than the chickens. so i do not recommend socializing her with anyone, not the family, muchless strangers. esp. not off the property. now with that said, your dog needs to know who belongs there, but you dont want to make your LGD a pet in any way shape or form.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

I guess I have a hard time seeing an LGD as just stock. To me, they are a dog first and require somesort of relationship with their humans....

(Like you need to be able to enter the pasture without the dog guarding the stock against you, etc....)....

Of course we have small land (2 acres) and our Pyr mix guards it all from near the house (at night he goes outside to sleep near the back of the property) on his own.... he is 8 months old, and while friendly to children (he rides in the back when I pick my daughter up from school and lets them Love on him).... he has started growling at strangers at night -- which is a little alarming actually in such a big dog.....

Also while we have seen coyote beyond our fencelines (its wooded back there) we have never had a loss in 2 years-- and our chickens, cats, and goat free range about and put themselves up at night.....


We have two other dogs that will come out and back him up BTW(we have a doggie door), but they are def house dogs (Bernese MT dog, and Giant schnauzer)... I would never put a pup out alone to defend everything himself.....


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## Mouflon (Jul 13, 2012)

The diversity of opinions and experiences is interesting. Here is my experience: 


The first 15 years or so I had Anatolians. Anatolians IME are too athletic/smart/mischievous for their own good. All were attained anywhere from 12 to 16 wks. All were supposed to have been raised with their parents and sheep. All took years to settle into good shepherds. All escaped frequently first by digging out, later jumping out. All terrorized the sheep with great joy till at least 3 yrs old but never physically injured any that I know of. They were just being playful which the sheep didn't care for. All were excellent hunters of *****, possums, skunks, and groundhogs. Unfortunately, the neighbors wayward barn cats as well, which they loved to parade around with and throw them in the air. All are master excavators, digging several dwellings at various places in the pastures. These are their "doghouses", they wouldn't be caught dead in one of the ones I bought for them. I am 6'2" 250# and was able to crawl into one out of sight, turn around inside and exit. I still can't believe the cows never caved that one in. They were all extremely sweet natured with our family (as are the Pyrs). All were fine until they reached the size and speed of a stallion and then the adolescence kicked in and lasted for approx. 3 years. After the 3 year period, they were good except for jumping out. I spent a solid year laying down fencing along the inside of the perimeter fence and wiring it to the existing fence. This stopped all digging out. They then looked at me as if to say, "fine, we'll just jump over". The lone Anatolian I have left lives in the front two acre pasture that has a hot wire along the top. At some point I hope to get more and more fencing hotwired. The Anatolians rarely ever barked and preferred stalking their prey. One actually caught a coyote at nine years old. He had to be put down just before his 13th b-day. He was my second lgd and he was an awesome dog (after 3 years).

I now have two Pyrs I wouldn't trade for anything. 
One does bark fairly often but not near as much as she did her first year (I thought I may have made a big mistake). I finally learned that yelling "NO!" or "SHUT UP!" was her signal that we were now in a wonderful contest to see who could make the most noise. I never won. The male only barks at the livestock if they happen to wander up during his feeding time or if he has direct contact with a threat. For a long time I thought he was mute. They guard our sheep and do an excellent job. They have never once gotten out of our 4 ft field fencing. I purchased one at 4 wks and the other at 5 wks about six months apart. Both were born to working parents but not with sheep (goats). Two little balls of fur. Each was placed in a kennel in a pasture for the first few months at a place where the sheep frequently hang out. They were then taken on supervised walks with the ewes when time permitted and by six months were living with them. At breeding time they got to meet the rams up close. They learned to avoid close proximity to the rams but that didn't deter them from following the flock and keeping a watch over them. They are very non aggressive with the sheep, but they don't take any crap from the cows. We haven't lost a sheep under their watch. (we have a huge coyote population)

All lgds were raised as working dogs, only a brief pat on the head at feeding time and when doing chores in the field, going for walks, etc. This only presented a slight problem when taking the female to the vet to be spayed. No big deal though.

All lgds have gotten along very well with our two house dogs. (Staffordshire Bull Terriers) They know who belongs and who doesn't. 

I readily admit if I had more time to work with the Anatolians, I might have had better luck with them. Too many irons in the fire (mainly my work). The Pyrs have been comparatively "plug and play" and are far more suited to my situation.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

I have a GP/Maremma, she only barks when there's something to bark about. Otherwise she is sleeping or playing. I take the doberman puppy out to play with her, they are still dogs and need another dog to play with and burn energy. Otherwise, they will play with the livestock. She'll be 2 in April, she's been alone with the stock since 8mo, locked next to the stock since whenever I got her as a baby.
We play with her out in pasture, she will stop w/e she is doing with us or the other dog if she hears/smells/hears something and runs off to check on it. 
Only a failed LGD should be in the house. Mine would love the house, but she also loves her job and freedom outside. If she'd have to become an indoor dog, she'd loose it. 

A good LGD is simply priceless and worth every penny you put into them and more.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Mouflon, I enjoyed your little excerpt about the two breeds you experienced. Thanks for sharing. It became obvious in the reading that you are certainly tuned in to your dogs' characters!


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

We have close- ish neighbors and lock ours (Pyr- anatolian ) in the house at night to give them some peace ! He is NOT a failure-- we have free range chickens goats cats (nothing is secured at night they go to their sleep places on their own-- NO losses in 2 years! Success in my book-- and we have it all coyote, bear, cougar... etc...

He is loose til 9pm, out for a 3am round of the property, then back in til 7am... it works for us... he is a good boy and a good guard. It has not "ruined " him...
Check out this link its pretty educational--

http://www.lgdnevada.com/Puppy__Training_.html

Love her website in general she is so humane, and knowledgeable....


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Dead Rabbit said:


> i also would never socialize a LGD. i mistakenly let my wife baby ours a little to much. she is still great at what she does, but she is too much attached to the family. she'd rather be with us than the chickens. so i do not recommend socializing her with anyone, not the family, muchless strangers. esp. not off the property. now with that said, your dog needs to know who belongs there, but you dont want to make your LGD a pet in any way shape or form.



just wondering, forgive butting in with my own question (i'm also going to add an lgd in the future) i think with my last two gp, they socialized regardless - the first one a female would prefer to be with me, even though i gave her her own goat kid as soon as she arrived at 6 weeks. she always had her kid and she loved the goats BUT she preferred me  eventually went to a pet home where she got to be with humans. the 2nd one, a male, seemed to bond with my dogs and would prefer to be with my dogs than with the goats. unfortunately he was very sick when i got him (i got him because i felt so bad for him when I saw him)and so he spent a lot of time with me the first couple of weeks. this time around, the lgd will be fenced off away from me and my other two dogs. he will not be able to run loose with my dogs and he will never come inside the house. and he will be a gp x anatolian probably. what else is done? do the lgd just click with their goats?


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

My two are socialized, and we have no trouble at all. 
They love their cows, chickens are a hit and miss thing for them. I just don't think they can bond to poultry. They guard them, but I would certainly not call it a bonded relationship.
I prefer the fact that ours are socialized, we aren't on thousands of acres, we are on 26, and our grandson comes over quite frequently. As do any number of little cousins, so having them be comfortable with people is important.
Ours are also able to behave on a leash, which to me is a big deal as they do have to go to the vet on rare occasion.
They do live out in the pastures, but are also comfortable, for very short periods, with coming inside, and into the backyard area for grooming. 
I've seen totally un-socialized LGD's, no thank you.
Mine have no trouble doing their job, and being friendly to people we introduce them to.
Mind you, if we haven't introduced you, you are on your own with them.....eep:


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Tango said:


> just wondering, forgive butting in with my own question (i'm also going to add an lgd in the future) i think with my last two gp, they socialized regardless - the first one a female would prefer to be with me, even though i gave her her own goat kid as soon as she arrived at 6 weeks. she always had her kid and she loved the goats BUT she preferred me  eventually went to a pet home where she got to be with humans. the 2nd one, a male, seemed to bond with my dogs and would prefer to be with my dogs than with the goats. unfortunately he was very sick when i got him (i got him because i felt so bad for him when I saw him)and so he spent a lot of time with me the first couple of weeks. this time around, the lgd will be fenced off away from me and my other two dogs. he will not be able to run loose with my dogs and he will never come inside the house. and he will be a gp x anatolian probably. what else is done? do the lgd just click with their goats?


the whole point of having a LGD is for herd/flock protection. thats for 2 - 4 legged predators and also winged ones.

mine is in my chicken yard. and i will agree mine does not bond with the chickens. but she does protect them. i want to add that mine was not "babied" in the sence i may have insenuated. she was petted on, talked sweet to, groomed etc. never played with, or carried off property except to the vet. i never encouraged her to be friendly to strangers, and she naturally wouldnt allow strangers to touch her. which i like and prefer. i do have her to where she will allow strangers into the yard b/c i sell chickens, eggs and rabbits. but they can only enter when i tell her to let them be. 
she is not a dangerous dog.. i do have a friend that feeds up for me, cause we do travel quite abit. she allows him to do what he does. i do have a house yorkie that will attack her when she gets near my wife. he is jealous like that. she tolerates him. but has turned on him. never biting but putting him in his place. he doesnt learn though. 
she is a notorious roamer. if not contained she makes her rounds which i speculates takes in a good mile or more. she is not dangerous to anyone. but i have seen her go after someone that innocently put hands on me in jest. i had to stop her. she is even more protective of my wife. im convinced a GP is the supreme dog for a family pet and also protective. not something to keep in the house b/c of excessive hair shedding. if i ever want a pet that will be great at protecting house and home....the GP is the go to dog. insurances will not cover most commonly used breeds.

as for socializing them to the extent others mentioned here.......i from my personal experience would not do it. they will want to be with you constantly, yes they may still do thier job but its not rocket science that it will not be as well done as it could be. if interests are split,,,something suffers.. if its a pet/gardian you want than they can do both. but like any multi-tool...its never ever as good as a specialized tool for the job.

IMO the best advice given in this thread is from MOUFLON and SECUONO. i like MOUFLONs method mentioned at end of thread.....feed them. pat on head, raised contained in the periimeter till old enough, stays in perimeter at all times, not a house dog at all, they know who to accept, they know what other dogs to accept. no more, no less.....period.

a specialized tool. (if thats what you want)


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Tango said:


> just wondering, forgive butting in with my own question (i'm also going to add an lgd in the future) i think with my last two gp, they socialized regardless - the first one a female would prefer to be with me, even though i gave her her own goat kid as soon as she arrived at 6 weeks. she always had her kid and she loved the goats BUT she preferred me  eventually went to a pet home where she got to be with humans. the 2nd one, a male, seemed to bond with my dogs and would prefer to be with my dogs than with the goats. unfortunately he was very sick when i got him (i got him because i felt so bad for him when I saw him)and so he spent a lot of time with me the first couple of weeks. this time around, the lgd will be fenced off away from me and my other two dogs. he will not be able to run loose with my dogs and he will never come inside the house. and he will be a gp x anatolian probably. what else is done? do the lgd just click with their goats?



Tango, if you click on the link above, the lady does breed serious working dogs (she has a great line of Anatolian- pyrs as well)-- she tells you to do simple things like pup gets fed along the fence line with the goats, and drop the hay bale along the pups' pens fence line so pup can experience the goats from an early age but not get injured by them-- I think she has like cattle panels so pups can go into sheep (she has sheep) pen and then back out into their own pen.
She has good tips in the section "for novice lgd owners"...


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## Squeaky McMurdo (Apr 19, 2012)

The National Anatolian Shepard Rescue has an adult female experienced with goats in Oregon that is in urgent need of a foster or a home. If I was ready to move to bigger acreage right now I would try her out in a heartbeat. My research has led me to believe that Anatolians are fairly good about taking on new species of charges so going from goats to sheep would probably be an easy transition.

http://www.nasrn.com/working.html


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

a good way to ruin a good dog.

this was today. my wife let SUGAR BEAR outa the chicken yard for about 15 mins while i was shoveling snow. course she comes begging attention, and me being the softy that i am....................


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

She looks like a real nice dog...
Perfect combination for a family farm dog and watchdog (needed around the house and for the small animals around the house, as protection).. there is usually a place for Everyone in this world...


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

if she had her way, she'd be in the house. she has forced her way into the doggie door many times. till i kept her contained in the chicken yard. 

she does her job, but not the best. and its our fault. i was told by quite a few how to raise them. but she was given to much atten. (very little actually but still to much) she came from outstanding working stock. i havent lost anything to predators since she hit 11 months 5 yrs ago. she keeps hawks outa the yard and has chased black bear off twice. after they tore down the fence. still....... i can see her heart is with us and in the house.

father was a picture perfect, monster of a GP. mother had two blue eyes. shorter coat and slightly small for a GP. the owner speculated she had some australian shep. in her. i have to agree. SUGAR BEAR is small for a GP and has one blue eye.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Hard to know if socialization dilutes their guarding skills or not, 
you can't train one dog both ways to compare, 
it could just be the dogs 'personality'. 
.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I don't think socialization ruins a working dog. But, you can't keep one in the house until he is big enough to guard and expect him to not want to be with you. They need to be with their charges and come to feel that the corner in the barn is their den.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Maura, exactly!
Ours do come running when we go out, they get a bit of lovin', then turn around and go right back to work.
When our Grandson comes over, well, Murphy is very attached to him. So he will hang with Colton as much as possible, when he is outside. As soon as we bring little guy in, Murphy goes back to work.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

hercsmama said:


> Maura, exactly!
> Ours do come running when we go out, they get a bit of lovin', then turn around and go right back to work.
> When our Grandson comes over, well, Murphy is very attached to him. So he will hang with Colton as much as possible, when he is outside. As soon as we bring little guy in, Murphy goes back to work.



and that backs up my whole point. ol murph may do wonderful while working but when colton is there hes hanging with him. there is great opportunity for predators to creep in then and there. 

ive seen it happen at my own place. ive watched fox come running in at one end of the property grab a chicken and take off while the dog was hanging around me. 

true,,,most predators are nocturnal but it does happen during the day too. while murphy is preoccupied with colton, you could lose something. and if fowl is the job, the dog must be alert to sky at all times cause hawks are constant threat.

i prefer and from now on want something that is on duty 24/7....not part time. even though these types would make the best home/family protection dog ive ever seen. but i dont need that............thats my job. lol.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I can see your point, but Murph has a back up in his sister Maggie. 
She is definitely the Alpha dog, and takes her job a bit more seriously than Murphy does.
While Murph usually is hanging with the cows, Mags is all over, checking fences and what all.
Mind you, if we only had the one dog, I'd probably be a bit more fussy about the socializing thing. Luckily for our two, we have them both.:sing:


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

hercsmama said:


> I can see your point, but Murph has a back up in his sister Maggie.
> She is definitely the Alpha dog, and takes her job a bit more seriously than Murphy does.
> While Murph usually is hanging with the cows, Mags is all over, checking fences and what all.
> Mind you, if we only had the one dog, I'd probably be a bit more fussy about the socializing thing. Luckily for our two, we have them both.:sing:



aww....maggie. the hidden ace in the hole. well played mrs hercs.


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