# Wood fired steam turbine and generator



## SkizzlePig

I'm researching a smaller sized steam turbine and generator that can be used with a wood fired boiler.

We'd use this as backup to our backup power generation.

I've looked a bit online, but have only really found 5MW+ turbines. Since I don't want to provide power to all of central Atlanta, I'd like to find something much, much smaller than that.

Any ideas?


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## pancho

Steam can be very dangerous.
Unless you have lots of experience working with steam it might be better to look at something else.


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## ryanthomas

Small turbines are not very efficient. That's why they're hard to find.


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## Ross

Yeah mind what Pancho wrote, steam fired anything is a tricky proposition. Now a wood gas fired genny might be a good idea!


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## Jim-mi

And yet another . . "Steam can be extremely dangerous"

It takes A LOT of hands on to make it work . . . . . .

No "set it and forget it" . .and walk away for a few hours . . . . . .

Bunch of years ago at the MREA energy fair we had some *steam* guys bring in a big trailer load of piston steam engines . . . . really Neat . . . .
I was more than intrigued . . . . . . .But with a good long yap yap with one of the guys he as well as said " It takes lots of fussing to keep the steam up 'PROPER' for it to run a generator correctly"

The thought of tending "Super heated steam" to run a turbine is more than a bit scary...................


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## dirtman

Look at greensteamengine.com. I thought about this also but have decided to build a wood gas generator to fuel the engine on my generac.


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## Capt Quirk

Dirtman, how hard was it to build the gassifier, and hook up to the generac? What did the generac run on before?


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## SkizzlePig

That's good counsel. I certainly wasn't thinking of a "back woods steam turbine". That sounds like a recipe for one less hand ... or worse.

I was hoping that there was a turnkey (or relative turnkey) option. Akin to solar ... panels + line equipment and you're ready.


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## dirtman

Capt Quirk said:


> Dirtman, how hard was it to build the gassifier, and hook up to the generac? What did the generac run on before?


Haven't done it yet, but I have gathered a ton of information. Check out some of the one's people have built at instructables.com. Doesn't seem too hard if you have torches and a welder.


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## Capt Quirk

dirtman said:


> Haven't done it yet, but I have gathered a ton of information. Check out some of the one's people have built at instructables.com. Doesn't seem too hard if you have torches and a welder.


And if you don't have torches, welder, and minimal fabricating skills?


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## SolarGary

Hi,
There is a good article on small scale steam power in Issue 62 of Home Power magazine. If you don't have back issues of HP, you can sign up for their digital subscription on their site -- gives you access to all 20 years worth -- I think its 10 bucks.

Gary


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## pancho

dirtman said:


> Haven't done it yet, but I have gathered a ton of information. Check out some of the one's people have built at instructables.com. Doesn't seem too hard if you have torches and a welder.


Building a bomb is quite easy also. Especially with instructions.
Building something that will produce steam is very easy.
Safety is a big concern with both.
Before building either it would be a very good idea to look at what can happen if you make one mistake.


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## Jim-mi

How so very true. . . . . *one mistake* . . . . . . .



I stumbled on a utube video from perhaps a drone over there in the arm pit of the world . . . . . .
Four guys were digging in /setting a road side bomb . . . . . .
Audio was "How are we going to handle this" . . . . . . . .

Then that one mistake was made . . . . . . . . .BIG explosion . . . 

and four guys are now searching for all their virgins . . . . . .

Even if not a fatal incident, steam burns are very nasty........


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## pancho

I worked for years in a power plant.
We had a couple of absorbers that operated on steam. Also provides steam for other things. Had 3 large boilers. 2 were natural gas or oil fired. The other used part of the co-generation system. We used the exhaust on the turbine to heat it.

One day we had a power blink. When we got everything running again we had a control air compressor trip out. That compressor was used to control the water fill valve for the boiler. A while later the whole building began shaking. Everyone, including me, evacuated the building. Once we were outside I decided someone had to return to try to stop the boiler from exploding. I went back in. Several steam lines had broken and steam and hot water filled the building. I finally got the boiler shut down. 
Going back in a building with over foot thick walls that were shaking like a cardboard shack was a trip.


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## solidwoods

http://gekgasifier.com/
jim


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## francismilker

Being employed at a steam fired power plant, I can only say, "just say no" to a do-it-yourself steam fired anything. You could/should spend a fortune on safety devices to ensure you and your family make it through in one piece. A person can buy a lot of gas or diesel for an internal combustion engine powered generator before he could even think of making power with steam safely. 

I"m all for one doing it themselves, I just can't see doing steam at home.


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## Jim-mi

Thank you Francismilker . . . . . . . .
Well said . . . . .


Also for a safe / set it and walk away system (you must look at the meters now and again) I put in, for one of my customers, a small cement block building (attached to the main barn/building) a 17kw, 4 cylinder generator powered by a buried 1000 gal propane tank. . . 
This is a off grid system with a big battery bank. . .
There is a automated watering system for many acres of wine grapes..........
If the big wind turbine isn't providing enough power for the well and system. . . .
The generator comes on automaticly . . .

I guess my point is; There is power provided for a *load* with safe/proven equipment . . . . .with out the danger involved with live steam.

Back to what Francismilker was saying; A good 5k gennie and a 500gal propane tank would be far cheaper and a world safer than live steam...........


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## reubenT

Just a note here; I was interested in steam power when I was young, and studied it quite a bit then, really wanted to build something but didn't have the capability. But now some 35 years later I'm actually doing it. Given my status as a mountain farmer desperately looking for any way to disconnect from the terrible money drain that a liquid fueled machine based operation sees. But as has been stated it'd better be done right because it can be very dangerous if something isn't quite right. I'm building a 40HP wood fired steam tractor. I tried the wood gas idea already, and it works OK, had my truck running on it. But decided it was too unreliable for my ideas of running disconnected from outside input for some time, as well as needing dry wood cut up small enough to feed and burn efficiently in a downdraft gasifier. Too much work to prepare the fuel. But steam power, once set up to run, can run very reliably with nothing but a little lube oil for years with no access to a parts supplier. Will run on whatever will burn in an airblast furnace and fit through the firebox door, wet wood slows it down a little but not much.
Normally it will take constant attention, OK when running it personally like I will be in normal tractor service. But I'll put some automatic controls on it so constant attention to boiler pressure and water level won't be an issue when running stationary equipment with it. (generator, grain mill, sorghum press, etc.)

Of course I have nearly 30 years welding experience, do metal fabrication, foundry and machining in my own shop, and have studied steam power extensively and consulted with the experts for their recommendations. I'm building an ofeldt style watertube boiler designed for 600 PSI working with 900 test, it'll have multiple safety features; relief valve, overpressure blowout plug, automatic pressure regulation by way of pressure switch controlling the boiler blower, all set at well below the regular cold test pressure. That's how it must be done to be safe. And then I'll probably only run it at 1/3 it's design pressure because the engine I'm building can't handle the higher pressure the boiler is designed for. The engine is similar to the old traction engine style built out of various odds and ends laying around, and scrap yard junk. but it'll be on a heavy duty 4x4 truck frame for rough terrine service, since almost nothing is level around here. 
Piston engines are the best practical steam power harness arrangement for anything up to 100 hp or better, since they're much easier to build than a turbine, and to buy a turbine will be out of sight for anyone but a very rich person or an industry planning on making a lot of $$$$ from it.
A boiler/engine combination can be bought, for a price, up towards $10,000 for a few HP. Small scale manufacture is never cheap, and mass manufacture does not exist in the realm of steam systems. 

I was working on other alternatives but have decided to finish the steam tractor just to get something going that I know will be reliable, and then go back to research and experimentation on my other ideas. I love agriculture and horses, love growing good food, but also enjoy playing with technology, building stuff and experimenting with energy technologies is interesting. RT


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## lazyBum

I agree with the piston engine. But what about a flash boiler? They run at a higher pressure, but they can be a bit safer since they have less total volume of steam. And it takes less time to get up to working pressure.


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## reubenT

also called a monotube boiler, easy to build, fast steam, very safe as far as steam explosiveness goes because very little water is there. But also has some disadvantage, little reserve capacity and a quickly fluctuating steam supply if the heat from the source is not steady. Water pumped in has to be just the right rate. I decided to go with the watertube style for easier control and some reserve capacity, better for wood fired situation. And it still has fast heatup because there's only a few gallons in it and a lot of heat transfer area. 
One big advantage of the monotube style is it does not come under boiler regulations, is not considered a pressure vessel, because it's just a coiled pipe.


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## dirtman

reubenT

What will you use to heat the boiler and do you think an aluminum motorcycle engine could be converted to a steam engine?


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## ace admirer

you guys gona have the boiler certified? gonna have it inspected every year? at one time in this nation a boiler explosion occured every 4 minutes. Know the difference between oxidizing combustion and carbonnizing? How to handle foaming caused by suspended solids? how to maintain water levels during an overheated, loss of pressure event? buffering of boiler internals?


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## SkizzlePig

ace admirer said:


> you guys gona have the boiler certified? gonna have it inspected every year? at one time in this nation a boiler explosion occured every 4 minutes.


Yeah, I'm pretty much over steam. I'm kind of attached to my fingers and hands. :grin: Back to wind and solar!


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## Qhorseman

seems to me for the prices I am seeing here a person can buy alot of solar panels and wind turbines. Beside, like other have stated there is safety issues, I was in the Navy, they make alot of steam, they still screw it up quite often.


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## Jim-mi

Qhorseman give us a report - thought about how super heavy duty built the navy steam stuff is . . . 
And all the "saftey" factors involved . . . . . .
And the screw ups . . . . .Are most of them from the human operators . .??

Sure gets way out of my budget to make the good stuff . . . .

Dirtman . .suggest you do a bunch of research on steam engines before asking a funny question like you did...........


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## dirtman

I asked the question about the motorcycle engine because I was watching a show on the discovery channel called How it's made, about small scale steam engines. This manufacturer was making a small scale steam engine to power a car. It was made out of aluminum, it had six regular looking pistons configured like a old time airplane engine but other than that didn't look much different than a opposed cylinder BMW. The heads had a inlet port fo supply steam which was opened and closed by a cam. I'm sure that steam has hazards but in our area we have an old engine show every august and there are many old steam tractors and a steam driven saw mill and other old steam driven farm equipment so it was an important source of power to farmers around the turn of the century and they built this stuff without welders or a fraction of the tools available to us.


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## Jim-mi

Of the steam engines I know about the intake and exhaust are a far cry different than any gasoline engines I know of . . . . . . . . .

Yup . . . Just came across a pix of me on my ex tractor at Buckley . . . . . .
I love that HEAVY old Iron Steam stuff . .. . . .
Wouldn't take much arm twisting to get me into that stuff . . . . .

Did you know they have to have a yearly (?) inspection by a state steam inspector.

And unfortunately there were deaths when one of those steamers blew up at a old time equipment show, in I think, PA ...............


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## lazyBum

Jim-mi said:


> Of the steam engines I know about the intake and exhaust are a far cry different than any gasoline engines I know of . . . . . . . . .
> 
> Yup . . . Just came across a pix of me on my ex tractor at Buckley . . . . . .
> I love that HEAVY old Iron Steam stuff . .. . . .
> Wouldn't take much arm twisting to get me into that stuff . . . . .
> 
> Did you know they have to have a yearly (?) inspection by a state steam inspector.
> 
> And unfortunately there were deaths when one of those steamers blew up at a old time equipment show, in I think, PA ...............


http://steamtraction.farmcollector.com/steam-engines/learning-from-tragic-accident-in-medina.aspx

Is this what you're thinking of?


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## Jim-mi

Yes lazyBum . . that is what I was recalling . . . . . tho it was long enough ago that I didn't want to post details on that I did not recall.......
Thanks for digging that up............
Interesting report . . . . .
. . . "Blew the 40,000 pound engine 10 feet up in the air" . . . . . . .

Sad that it took so many lives . . . . .
Many never to be answered questions . . .because the operators are dead.......

But all those guys died "With their boots on" . . . . .meaning they all got great enjoyment playing / tinkering / running that old Case........

Can't tell ya how many times I've been within 20 feet or so when one of those HEAVY Iron Monsters lumbered by . . . . .
Or even closer at the Buckley show when a steamer was powering the sawmill......

I've got a h*ll of a respect for that old steam equipment............


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## cmcon=7

you might look up tesla turbine on youtube probably the only home built design
feasible.


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## lazyBum

It's a shame what happened, but it could have been a lot worse if there were more people around.

I love steam engines, they've always fascinated me. I was checking one out last summer. Right as I turn to walk away, BOOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm usually not easily startled, but I jumped out of my skin. I knew right away that it was just the safety valve and not an explosion blowing me to bits. But my fight or flight had already kicked in. When I landed I did what any man would do, looked around real quick to see if anybody saw me. There wasn't anybody rolling on the ground wetting themselves, so nothing to be embarrassed about, lol.

If you like seeing them lumber, wait till you see one race. Some people in my area have a road locomotive. It's an avery boiler and engine mounted on a semi frame, street legal. There is nothing as cool as 20 tons of iron going by at 50 mph.


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## Jim-mi

Or by the same token a Case or Avery going FULL out at less than 1 mile per hour drawing that 10- 12 (??) bottom plow across the field . . . . .one man on each plow and the engine cab full of Working men . . .belching THICK black coal smoke . . . blowing excess steam . . . . . .
WOW . . . . . . .

At the Buckley and Wallon old engine shows there is ALWAYS an operator/fireman right there watching the guages and paying attention to that running monster.....

Which is one of the reasons "home" steam is NOT a good idea.......
You can't "set and forget it" and walk away.........

What a world of difference between a Listor diesel running at 450 rpm's and live steam.......


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## lazyBum

A plowing demonstration would be neat to see, they just dont have those at the shows i go to. And something always seems to come up and i get there too late to watch them threshing. They used to do the spark shows at night, drafting saw dust through the firebox, now thats too much of a liability.


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## Jim-mi

Yes those plowing demonstrations are mighty impressive . . . .. 
The last one I was at, I was sitting on my tractor watching when, I think it was an Avery, had a big flywheel come off . . . . . . . . .
Lots of scrambling men . . . . and question marks "what to do"
Chuckle----A Big diesel powered front end loader came out and they muscled the flywheel into the loader........
And darned if the big ole steamer didn't make it back to its "parking" area without the flywheel . . . .. . . . .

Yes those boys (men) at Buckley are mighty dedicated steamers....
Hats off to them . . . . . . 

google up www.Buckley old engine show .... if yer interested in seeing some mighty fine old steamers.

For home generation consider propane or diesel for the fuel...........


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## lazyBum

Looks like a great show. Too bad it's 7 hours away.


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## cmcon=7

you might youtube tesla turbine, these are easy to make, I saw one that sat on top of a pressure cooker, it looks like it could make 10-20 watts.

I would like to get a stirling unit combined with a rocket stove :thumb:


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## ace admirer

"Sad that it took so many lives . . . . .
Many never to be answered questions . . .because the operators are dead......."

the boiler had heavy rusted stay bolts and end sheets, it had not been inspected in years. the operators were in a very vocal and prolonged "discussion" with a policeman diverting their focus from operation of the machine, the safeties were set high. deadly combination.


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## dirtman

lazyBum said:


> Looks like a great show. Too bad it's 7 hours away.


The show runs over the week end and there are campgrounds near by.


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## Jim-mi

My last time to Buckley I did the whole nine yards.
I wanted to sell a tractor . . . . . .I did . . . .Sunday at noon the guy says "So as to not bother trailering it home ....heres some cash".......
I went to Buckley on wed. and grabbed a 'camping spot' ($$) . . . WOW
What an event . . . . . . . . 

Supposedly www.Buckly is the biggest event of its kind in the country . . look at all the pictures they don't lie .. . . .

There are many folks there that drive more than 7hours to get to the "steam buffs" meca............


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## reubenT

The deadly explosion mentioned was an engine that had been condemned by an inspector, the inspector warned the event organizer not to allow that engine to operate, but they let it go anyway. The inspector who condemned it is on a discussion forum I have learned a lot from.

The issue with converting internal combustion engines to steam power is getting condensate water in the crankcase, it can be partially remedied by using water resistant oil, but still remains a problem. Steam engines almost always had open cranks with drip oil lubed bearings, and an oil injector to mix a small amount of oil with the steam to lube the cylinder.
There are plenty of hobbyists around who play with steam, only a very few who actually use it as a regular power source. Most of those who do so are very thoroughly self educated on the subject. With an occasional fool who is an accident waiting to happen. Lots of accidents happened in past history, and if we learn from the mistakes of others, make use of modern materials and methods, and take all reasonable safety precautions, we can be as safe as just about any other activity.
After all, life is a series of managed risks, we take risk of an accident just to get in a vehicle and drive down the road, but we manage that risk, reduce it to a minimum by making sure the vehicle has all it's safety features in order and obeying the rules of the road. Same with steam. The boilers are always tested once per year with a cold test at 150% operating pressure, and when they are to be operated in public they have to be inspected by a state boiler inspector. 
I think for the most part, small scale steam is used by those who love it. The people who just want the power and don't care about the interesting fun aspect, always end up finding something else with less maintenance and easier to put together. 
I have always loved it myself and so it's easy and interesting to do the research and go for it.


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## CesumPec

i have a very little bit of experience as a midshipman with 1200 PSI navy steam engines. As to those saying steam engines are dangerous, yes and no. A tea kettle isn't all that dangerous, a 1900's steam era car isn't particularly dangerous, a 1200 PSI boiler is a bomb waiting to explode and needs constant management to keep it under control. 

I spent the better part of a year trying to find a workable, wood fired, low pressure steam engine to electric for use on the farm. I had my bro who runs a NASA research lab try to find something and he failed. I had a Chinese connection trying to find materials over there that could be assembled into a working system. no luck or at least no luck in a financially feasible way. But then i'm not much of a mechanic or welder.

Here's what I found in big picture mode from 50,000 feet. 

1. You need a large feed water supply, preferably gravity fed so there is no danger of a pump failure, large enough that the system could run for a day or so longer than the longest possible time you would go without checking the system. 
2. A mechanical fuel feeding system. using wood pellets is typical for autofeed wood fuel systems. but then you need pellet making equipment or you'll have to buy expensive pellets.
3. A boiler, wood stove, furnace. There are wood stoves and furnaces that could serve as the basis for this that have autofeed fuel systems. you can also power some of these stoves with feed corn. 
4. Steam system. This is a part you would need to construct because i could find nothing out there. used radiators might be a place to start in constructing something but i don't know if they would last long. A low pressure system isn't as efficient but it is safer. So a superheating dry steam to several hundred degrees would get more energy out of the system but the system would be much more complex with safety equipment and much more expensive. A closed system that recovers the steam, condenses the water to return as feed water runs to more costs and safety issues. The safest steam engine, IMO, is an open system that is basically a tea kettle blowing steam out a small hole, over a turbine, and venting to atmosphere. That is basically how 1900's steam powered cars worked. they were safe as long as there was adequate feed water.
5. power converter, this is either a turbine which will be connected to a generator like in a modern power plant or the steam driven piston engines like in a steam locomotive. I think the piston systems work better with low pressure systems but if you have ever looked at an old steam locomotive, these systems are complex. 
6. Electric monitoring controls. You need a steady power source, running at fairly constant rates to generate safe power for your home and barn. I have no idea what sorts of equipment is needed here because I couldn't find the equipment to generate the steam power.

If you could find an old steam locomotive and hook it up to a generator, that would probably be the best way to create a workable system. Good luck with that and you would still have an engine that needed lots and lots of maintenance to keep it running.


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## 80monza

its good to think,all alternative energy costs,everything that are 100 yrs old has problems,i think that donkey steam engine could be used to power a generator,ive seen kits but seem quite complicated,if you own tree'd acres and a water source thats a start,people have used steam since the beginning of the industrial revolution and the energy companies still do,there a regulations for people of are time period,never stop researching as people dont want you to succeed thats what the system wants


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