# Choices, Free Will, addiction, deliberat self-destruction



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I almost choked when I read one of the lovelorn columnists in our paper today.
Someone wrote in to discuss an enabler referred to in a previous column and the woman said "addiction is a disease". 

Horse Muffins: Addictions, including alcoholism, are choices. Stupid, weak willed, Ignorant, or reckless people make choices. They knowingly indulge in behavior that experience, medicine, social mores and religion tell them are self-destructive. They get what they ask for.

The pothead who comes out of the fog and willingly goes back in gets no sympathy from me. 

Some diseases are self-inflicted as well. D....ned little sympathy for self-destruction here.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Addiction *IS* a disease with a genetic base. 

Then again, lifestyle counts! It isn't just genetics: for instance I have a couple of heavy diseases that my own genotype has set me up for, and I have no intention of giving in to either of them! I did not ask for them but I have them, and it is just part of life that needs to be dealt with. 

I am currently sweating out a 5 day course of prednisone right now, and watching my diet like a hawk. I would respect the addict who fights for health as much as I do now. I do not intend to spend my life impaired if I can avoid it, I have far too much that I intend to do!

I think that a co-worker summed it up best: her alcoholic daughter spoke of her first drink: I think it was whisky. Her daughter said "I took one drink and I KNEW I was in love"! Heck, *MY* first drink just made me feel stupid and sleepy! We obviously have very different metabolisms! I have since learned to enjoy alcohol's affects but I have never wanted more than a slight buzz. I know that I will again feel stupid and sleepy if I drink to much and so I never drink too much. Why punish myself?

Both of my kids are adopted, and because of the birth family's backgrounds I have always cautioned them against drinking alcohol. They have a *VERY* different genotype than my husband or I do. They are both 20 at this time: I hope that they listen to their parents on this!


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2014)

Overeating, religion, killing, abusing others, letting others abuse you.... all are addictions. 

Are my addictions better than everybody elses? Only from my point of view, as are theirs better than mine, from their point of view.

"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
Robert Oppenheimer's misquotation of Krishna. (which gets more use than the original.)


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Well, one day I was in another forum and this woman was posting about her alcoholic DB. From what I could gather she is an enabler and I suspect her parents are/were too. She kept posting over and over that alcoholism is a disease.

I posted that I also believe that is it a disease, but the difference is perspective is that I think a disease is a disease is a disease. If a person has, indeed, a disease, they have no right to inflict it on others. They have the responsibilty to get help, just a a person with the flu goes to a doctor.

I think that peple who have an addiction and inflict their behavior on the world in general are beyond selfish and cruel.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Genetics have nothing to do with free will. We all know that American Indians, having never been exposed to whiskey or smallpox, are susceptible. 

By now the Indian knows that too, yet they get vaccinated to prevent smallpox but many won't stay away from whiskey. If you know that table saws will cut off a hand, do you stick your hand in the saw? If you've cut off one hand do you stick in the other?

If you are falling down drunk and get thrown in jail, do you have to be told not to do it again? How stupid can a person be?


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Genetics have nothing to do with free will. We all know that American Indians, having never been exposed to whiskey or smallpox, are susceptible.
> 
> By now the Indian knows that too, yet they get vaccinated to prevent smallpox but many won't stay away from whiskey. If you know that table saws will cut off a hand, do you stick your hand in the saw? If you've cut off one hand do you stick in the other?
> 
> If you are falling down drunk and get thrown in jail, do you have to be told not to do it again? How stupid can a person be?


I have known many Native American Indians and this is only my opinion> Their bodies (not all of them),for some reason can't deal with alcohol. And, it makes them terribly addicted at the first sip.

Now a days, NAI have all types of help for addictions and, from what I see in this state, the numbers are down. Knowledge is a great tool.

I just say that individuals with addictions should take responsibility for it and DO something about it. Don't inflict it on others.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I've whittling away at my addictions, but still have a couple.

While in the Navy during the 70's, I caught a disease, they gave me some penicillin for it.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Oxankle said:


> I almost choked when I read one of the lovelorn columnists in our paper today.


Good for you, being so much better than people with addiction/alcoholism, and yes it is a disease per the CDC!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Brighton: Alcoholism and drug addiction are "diseases" because it is politically correct to call them so. If you are a doper, being "diseased" gets you insurance-paid psychiatric and drying-out hospital care. If you are a drunk your "addiction" gets not only insurance-paid care but protection from having a tin can tied to your tail. 

Doctors and psychiatrists make money off "diseases". Drunken politicians with dope-heads in their families worked that out. 

So long as we coddle the drunks and dopers we'll get more of them.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

So easy to say if you have never been addicted. I don't understand the problem well because I don't have the problem. But being a nurse for 20 odd...very odd.. Years I can tell you it just isn't that easy to stop. And in spite of what persons may assume treatment options are either limited by availability or the person seeking resources. And you would be very surprised indeed by the number of drug addicts created by treatment for chronic or acute pain.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Being that a good many of my relatives had addictions to alcohol and my father was terribly addicted to tobacco, I grew up with a great fear (respect) of addiction.

I smoked cigarettes ( back when the Earth was young) and enjoyed every puff. BUT, if I felt that I NEEDED a smoke, I quit for a few weeks. It is the same with alcohol. We enjoy our drinkie-poos in the evening BUT, if I ever feel that I need it, I'll quit. In both situations, it's my responsibility to myself and the people around me.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I was a wino for a couple of years. I drank cause I had been divorced a 2nd time, and had lost my second daughter. After a couple years, I came to realize that she wasn't worth the emotion and the money, and I realized that it wouldn't help my DD in the long run, so I met #3, and I quit drinking for her. Havnt touched a drop of wine since 74. Never drank anything else other than beer. I have a 6 pk or a bottle of that sometimes in a HOT August. Sometimes not.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Ardie; All that you say can be boiled down to awareness and self discipline. 

Notwyse: Of course, once addicted it is not easy to stop. Try jumping off a 60-story building and stopping. The idea is that if you know the d...ed gun is loaded, don't point it at your head!!!!

As for those addicted via treatment for pain. Yes, it happens, but generally because the patient will not or cannot tolerate a level of pain that permits him to be weaned of the drugs. I've seen that happen to friends. 

In some cases there is no way out--they either take the drug or live with intolerable pain---It would be heartless to deny painkillers to such people---those with cancer, damaged spines, etc. Not the same as voluntary addiction.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> I've whittling away at my addictions, but still have a couple.
> 
> While in the Navy during the 70's, I caught a disease, they gave me some penicillin for it.


Penicillin won't cure alcoholism or any other addiction, though, rendering your point totally mute.
It IS a disease, not a choice. I have fought this battle, and nobody with any sense wants to be like this. I don't think it's possible for a non-addict to understand it, and I ain't wearing out my keyboard in an effort to educate the ignorant, but the problem IS genetic, as well as societal. It has to be attacked in an analytical and medical way. In this case, whining about taxes won't accomplish anything.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

And those that think there is ready available treatment out there haven't been close enough to the fire. On a funny note...when my dad was in the hospital for an aneurysm repair he quit smoking. He had smoked for 70 years. Boy did he brag. Until I pointed out he had been sedated and on a ventilator for two weeks. Hardly fair for the folks trying on their own.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

"_*awareness and self discipline*_"

These both should be considered,,,,before you open your mouth,,,,,,

I'm not sure you applied either.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

swamp man said:


> Penicillin won't cure alcoholism or any other addiction, though, rendering your point totally mute.
> It IS a disease, not a choice. I have fought this battle, and nobody with any sense wants to be like this. I don't think it's possible for a non-addict to understand it, and I ain't wearing out my keyboard in an effort to educate the ignorant, but the problem IS genetic, as well as societal. It has to be attacked in an analytical and medical way. In this case, whining about taxes won't accomplish anything.



Don't preach to me, I already admitted to being an addict, it's my choice to remain one though. The penicillin cured the Venereal Disease I got in the Philippines when I was 17.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

Anybody that ever did any serious drinking or drugs knows that some people have a personality that is just best called an "addictive personality" And some don't. I've seen people get addicted with the first drink, like mentioned somewhere above. Seen people get hooked smoking crack once. Nice people, good as anybody. It's just one of the many mysteries of life, you got a guy that gets hooked on everything he touches, and hid best friend that can drink one day,. smoke crack the next, shoot heroin on Wednesday, yet work 48 hours, raise a family, take care of his obligations, and so on. Nobody outside the drug and booze cycle ever sees that. Everybody inside does. Hey, some people have it in their DNA to get addicted to everything. Some don't. It's one of those things in life best described as "just is"


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Oxankle said:


> Brighton: Alcoholism and drug addiction are "diseases" because it is politically correct to call them so. If you are a doper, being "diseased" gets you insurance-paid psychiatric and drying-out hospital care. If you are a drunk your "addiction" gets not only insurance-paid care but protection from having a tin can tied to your tail.
> 
> Doctors and psychiatrists make money off "diseases". Drunken politicians with dope-heads in their families worked that out.
> 
> So long as we coddle the drunks and dopers we'll get more of them.


 
Ox - Much of the drug addiction comes straight from the doctors and school system, themselves, period. It begins when a child is prescribed Adderall/Ritalin. These drugs are highly addictive and is not a free will choice. Especially when they are being "hooked" on it at age 5.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I have mixed feelings.
I've been addicted to tobacco, but that's all, (2 or 3 packs a day and a can of snuff every other day) and after a serious health scare, I quit cold turkey.
It wasn't easy, but it's been almost 14 years and I thank God every day that I don't have that in my life.
I also know that if I was to light up a cigarette, or have a pinch, I'd be right back to spending $50 or more a week on something that would probably kill me, so I don't tempt fate.
I have never been addicted to alcohol, I can take it or leave it, but I've been close to people who are addicted, and it has been known to pop up in my own family. 2 uncles drank themselves to death, both grandfathers drank, and my grandmother drank a 12 pack a day until she was 93 (doctor told her it was going to kill her if she didn't quit)
I lived 13 years with an alcoholic, and I never got used to it.
Some alcoholics are mean, they share their misery on those they love, and I'm not sure they know they do it, and no amount of talking, arguing, yelling will ever convince some of them of that.
I know it's a tough thing to kick, but to not even try while blaming those who love you is inexcusable in my book.
When it costs you your family, your loved ones, your health and your happiness, and you don't even try....I don't understand that.
I've heard all the lies, the promises, the excuses. I've heard "one last hoorah before I quit" too many times.
Sorry for the mini rant, I get frustrated sometimes. It's hard to watch someone you love drink themselves to death and know there's nothing you can do about it.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

I had seen that this thread was under mod review, I know everyone has an opinion about drugs/alcohol-I just don't see this OP having anything to do with being single, or homesteading- I think this would be a good topic for the group up there in General Chat?


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Ox, you seem to have a burr under your saddle about this issue, and I'm going to speculate that someone you love/loved very dearly was affected in a bad way by someone who suffered from an addiction. But in my opinion, you really don't understand this. 

I spent years watching people from a ringside seat destroy their lives with alcohol and drugs, along with the lives of those whom they loved. I watched them drive themselves crazy with it, knew of many who died from it one way or another. Never met a single one who wanted the life they'd made with the inability to hold down a job, time spent in jail, lack of money, lack of a home, lack of self-respect. You haven't seen true self-loathing until you've talked to an addict who just can't kick -- sometimes after years and years of good success. If you ask them, they will tell you the compulsion never lessens -- never. They are as miserable on the last day after 30 years drug/alcohol free as they were on the first day they gave it up. I don't know if I would have the intestinal fortitude to hold that wolf at the door for a lifetime. I certainly don't judge. I haven't walked a mile in those shoes. I've seen the destruction such addiction causes, and I don't know anyone who would choose it over a clean, productive life.

Where's the compassion? Where's the "judge not lest ye be judged?" Addiction is a well-documented phenomenon. You saying, "It doesn't exist," is simply not persuasive in any way. Just an opinion, and we all know what they say about those. If that worked, we'd never go to war -- because I'd just say to myself, "Let's just say no," -- and it would come true!

I think you need to study on this a bit further, Ox, I really do.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

This thread had to go into mod review due to some hiss n spit arguing that was reported to Terri and I and we agreed the arguing was close enough to violating personal attacking to be removed from the ongoing discussion. 

We can all share our opinion without snapping at one another and here is a portion of my opinion on addictions.

There always have been disagreements if addictions are choices, diseases, genetic influenced predisposition , etc. and all schools of thought have some defined basis/merits and all often become entwined in ultimately overcoming the condition.

I have known a few alcoholics who just made the choice to keep the cork in the bottle and some addicted to cigarettes stop by keeping a unopened pack in the drawer of their desk. Others I have seen addicted to whatever overcame their issue with support groups, medication based weaning or immersing themselves zealously into a different interest sort of replacing one addiction with another that was both safer for them and those around them and usually with more constructive results than their former dark life to them addiction.

Regardless if your school of thought considers addiction a disease, self choice , social pressure or whatever, when overcoming, those who seek to gain their freedom from the addiction must make the choice to get the monkey off their back and a will strong enough to pursue the course of action they feel they need to get away from where they were to where they want to be. Sometimes folks find themselves making that trip more than once.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

The posts I made were not "hiss and spit". rather compassionate and understanding. Not only that, my post were an intervention with someone who was upset. I offered the other person an easy out. In this particular case, we were all adults here, and were easily work out out ant differences of opinion. Your moderation was erroneous. There is an excellent possibility that someone here was a flash away from an insight that could help them throughout their entire life. But, you pulled the thread, the information, the compassion, everything that makes a conversation worthwhile. Why??


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

I think this is the fastest mod review turn around I've ever seen! :shocked:

You really must have not had anything better to do tonight Shrek.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Twp.Tom said:


> I had seen that this thread was under mod review, I know everyone has an opinion about drugs/alcohol-I just don't see this OP having anything to do with being single, or homesteading- I think this would be a good topic for the group up there in General Chat?


It is not Singletree board policy to move a topic off board once the discussion has become a part of the commentary of our group here. 

Once the discussion has grown within the Singletree board demographic it stays here.

The demographic differences of the various boards are also why we prefer other board mods do not dump threads they feel aren't in line with their board member demographic and they don't want to delete them in their board.

Few threads ever successfully move from one board to another because of the differences in board demographic make up.

Had the OP wanted to discuss this in GC he would have posted it there. As the OP posted it here , he wanted the input from Singletree participants.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I know first hand that you can successfully kick a hard core drug addiction all by yourself...

You just have to be ready.

I can speak from facts


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Chuck is in his young 80s. He has an old time perspective about these things. People now a days are apologetic about such things. People who do them, came from a bad family, from a bad neighborhood, neglect, an a doz other reasons that are acceptable today. People today believe that, IF a person has had or has been raised within these and other effects, that they can understand and empithize? with them. Today, we store murderers, and rapests, and drug dealers, and all the other violent people in prison for anywhere from a few years to life.

Chuck was born in the early 30s. Times were different then, and yet the same. If you want to see how many people had to live, from hand to mouth, standing in bread lines, selling fruit for a nickel ea, (my dad sold popcorn outside a movie house back then) Being evicted, living in the Dust Bowl, Barelymaking a living, No jobs to be had, and I mean NO jobs, and if there were any, there were at least 100 people trying to get them. 
BUT, regardless of the hardshipsMOST people kept on, as that was all they could do. They kept themselves cleaner than most people do today, and under unbelieveable methods, by todays standard. They largely were religious, and religion was the backbone of there fortitude. They grew gardens from seed out of thrown away garbage they had found and dried. The farmers then saw there crops and animals thrown in rivers, or killed in herds, so as to raise the prices of those that survived. They had respect for themselves, and the pride of their name and the integrity of their name REALLY ment something. They were a giving, helpful people TO THOSE, who were truly trying to help themselves. They were all in the same boat, and it was slowly going nowhere, and IF they could be a help to those who were despirately trying to help themselves, they didn't hesitate to do it.
Threshing, haying, butchering, was never done by just one family alone. Neighbors as needed always helped, knowing that they would get help in return when they were ready to do those things.
Somebody get hurt so that they couldn't get there crops in, OR out, neighbors organized to see that those chores got done.
Husband die during the year, neighbors collected to make sure his crops got the attention they needed so that the wife would have something to live on at the end of the year.
In the above instances, Men got together to cut wood for families in such straits, and there were NO chain saws used.

In all this, People respected those who had earned and diserved respect. They had NO use for ANYONE who wouldn't pull there own weight. Everybody knew about hobos back then, and nobody had much good to say about them. Everybody knew a neighborhood drunk, and they hadn't much use for them either, tho they might feel for his family. 
The 30s was the time for lawlessness in America like no other time in our history, as cars had developed to make fast gitaways, but technologies hadn't yet been made to catch them as they have now. People had NO use for a killer, or a rapists, and many of them were jerked outa cells and decorated trees outside the courthouse or jail.
Sometimes they weren't always right, BUT they all had a code, and they lived by it, and expected others around them to do likewise. It went something like John Waynes Code that he lived by in the Shootist. Do the best you can, and folks will help ya to do the rest. Don't start no trouble, and there wont be no trouble.

Draft Dodgers were hated and dispised, and when they had went to war, they went to win it. Korea was a shame to most americans back then.

This is the world Chuck/Ox was born and grew up in. I didn't, but I heard all about it from those who had. Ive got the exact same feelings about stuff he has. I suppose most people over 60 do.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

zong said:


> The posts I made were not "hiss and spit". rather compassionate and understanding. Not only that, my post were an intervention with someone who was upset. I offered the other person an easy out. In this particular case, we were all adults here, and were easily work out out ant differences of opinion. Your moderation was erroneous. There is an excellent possibility that someone here was a flash away from an insight that could help them throughout their entire life. But, you pulled the thread, the information, the compassion, everything that makes a conversation worthwhile. Why??


The Hiss n Spit tangent was removed as a tangent package. While a reply or two may not have been as bad as others, they were part of the tangent and if left would have been non conversational out of place orphan posts.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

FBB, I hear what you are saying, but I had a great grandmother who died a morphine addict and a Cherokee grandfather who died the town drunk. They lived in those days, and they certainly had addictions -- same as today. I can't romanticize the period as you have. 

How do you account for addiction in those times? I say it was still around, just not recognized or treated as readily. People just... died from their addictions then. In more hushed tones. It was a... FAMILY problem. Today, we recognize them as treatable maladies. How is that a bad thing?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I heard about those times, you could drink and drive, beat your wife and black people had no rights.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

Bill, I'm over 60, too. I was 18 years old in 1969, and deep into it. I hated Vietnam. I was like Mohammed Ali, I didn't have nothing against no Viet Cong. I bet that right now, 45 years later, you can't give me a lucid reason for a war in a country nobody ever even heard of, in which 54,000 American boys died. So, no, everybody over 60 don't think like that. 

However, I know that everybody should have some consideration for other people's opinion. Ox is extraordinarily succinct in his posts, but that don't mean people can't disagree. .


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

"I heard about those times, you could drink and drive, beat your wife and black people had no rights."

Shhh! We don't talk about that in polite society.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Raeven I didn't try to romanticize those times. I said that people didn't have NO use for the people with the addictions that you stated. you grandma likely took home made medicines that was laced with heroin, or cheap booze, like Hadacol,. Your granddad, as you said was indian, and as has already been stated by others Indians had a particulary hard time with the hard stuff. BUT being indian was no excuse, MANY white people, and likely more white people than indian were town drunks.

Vick. Now you can text and drive, and also drink and drive, and you can go a heck of a lot faster doing it. Now, many people think that Gays, and Muslims should have no rights.

Shhh, We don't talk about that in polite society.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I simply think that if we can recognize addiction as something with which we can help, then we should help -- not ostracize, judge or belittle. That's really the important point I want to make. Call it a disease, call it an affliction, call it a predilection, call it an unseemly urge -- but don't fail to help or to treat it if help and/or treatment may be offered.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

I think that everybody that don't think like me should have their posts removed. And everybody else should realize the wisdom of my irrational thoughts. 

As in the story of Ra Amman Ka.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

zong said:


> I think that everybody that don't think like me should have their posts removed. And everybody else should realize the wisdom of my irrational thoughts.
> 
> As in the story of Ra Amman Ka.



I just fired off a couple PM's to the Mod's about your behavior.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

AH Gee Raeven, and I was in your good graces for such a short time lol.

I HATE a liar, a thief a drunk and a druggie, and ill be danged if Im gonna do ANYTHING to help them,


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

It's ok, FBB. I'll just help them enough for both of us.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> AH Gee Raeven, and I was in your good graces for such a short time lol.
> 
> I HATE a liar, a thief a drunk and a druggie, and ill be danged if Im gonna do ANYTHING to help them,



Don't flatter yourself, you couldn't help them, they can only help themselves.

I'm 8 years clean from everything except coffee, pot and the internet.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Ho K, Just DONT mention your silent partner lol
AND, When you've been lied to, and it breaks your heart, or something you've prized has been stolen, OR when you've been hit by a drunk driver, or killed by a druggie burgler, Don't say I didn't warn ya lol.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Dad, U say your clean from everything cept the coffee pot?? lol


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

Yeah, OK Bill. How about when some group of devout religious fanatics drive a bunch of planes into some buildings murdering thousands of people who just went to work like any other day? Which addictions are really worse? In the War Between the States, who really had God on their side?
Oh, never mind all that, a guy down the road might be smoking pot or something, let's act like that is more important..


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

ORD, that's a fair point, but I think environments can be created that are conducive to making the attempts of addicts to kick a success.

During the years I worked for the courts, drug courts were being implemented across the country. Our court was no exception. I was hugely skeptical when we started, but the numbers convinced me. In comparison to all else that had been tried, Drug Court was a resounding success. It was literal hand-holding for an entire year. We got to know those people WELL. And... it worked. I became a big advocate of Drug Court. I never missed their graduations, and the gratitude they shared made it all so worthwhile.

Saved money and lives, too, as well as reduced the crime rate. Impressive. So yes, it's down to the addict to succeed -- but we CAN help.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

FarmboyBill said:


> Ho K, Just DONT mention your silent partner lol
> AND, When you've been lied to, and it breaks your heart, or something you've prized has been stolen, OR when you've been hit by a drunk driver, or killed by a druggie burgler, Don't say I didn't warn ya lol.


You're telling me nothing I don't already know, up close and personal. I didn't say I let addicts into my life in that way. I said I would offer help in ways where and when I can by supporting programs I believe to be effective. That doesn't mean becoming a victim.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> Don't preach to me, I already admitted to being an addict, it's my choice to remain one though. The penicillin cured the Venereal Disease I got in the Philippines when I was 17.


 I wouldn't dare preach. I certainly ain't in a position to. My reply was mostly to Mr. Ankle, and it's my fault for not making that clear, and I'm sorry. 
Your statement of choosing to stay with your demon is understandable. I've been junked on everything anybody ever heard of at one time or another, and I've just done the 'writhing and sweating", and kicked it. At the end of the day, it's the booze that won't turn me 'loose. I don't know why, I certainly didn't ask for this, but it's something I was born with. I have fought it, and it wins. I let go of a beautiful piece of property with timber value to go to rehab, basically rendering myself homeless, but the fact is, 12 step programs are a crock and they don't work.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

My 21 year old son ( my only son), is trying to kick a deadly addiction problem; He is in court ordered rehab right now- I hope that he makes it, its sad watching your only child, suffer from addiction. He is being guided/helped, but in the end, it is up to him to deal with addiction.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm so sorry.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Z U sayin cause I didn't mention Religious Fanatics or Rebs, they wouldn't be on my list. Ive had that list, all cept druggies for 40yrs. The druggies got added when I first saw one. When I saw the towers go down, they made the roll also. When I lived in NE Kans, and knew that people in MO had no use for Kansans, They got on the list to. BUT since I worked for over 10yers in Mo, and lived there, and people slowly got over that rap, I got over the hatin them. AND, I was kidding Raeven to somewhat make a point .
FINALLY, The things I listed, I did so cause I had had personal encounters with them all. I havnt been run over with a plane with a guy driving it while reading the Koran, and the Wars been over for a LONG time.

FINALLY, I don't think God was on either side cause the side HE wanted to win, he knew already would. Kinda like a basketball coach who sees all his players are a head taller than his opposition. He dosent have to worry much about wholl win.
God wanted a sacrifice. Alla HIS sacrifices are generally in blood. I believe HE wanted to bleed this country white, so that it would always remember, and never forget what it had come through. Having done that, HE was ready to move the country forward to where/what it is today. IF your not happy about where it is today, or what it is, neither am I, and I believe, were the chosen generation, and HES gonna do something to us, US A, one way or anudder.
BUT, Whaddia I know.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Raeven said:


> ORD, that's a fair point, but I think environments can be created that are conducive to making the attempts of addicts to kick a success.
> 
> During the years I worked for the courts, drug courts were being implemented across the country. Our court was no exception. I was hugely skeptical when we started, but the numbers convinced me. In comparison to all else that had been tried, Drug Court was a resounding success. It was literal hand-holding for an entire year. We got to know those people WELL. And... it worked. I became a big advocate of Drug Court. I never missed their graduations, and the gratitude they shared made it all so worthwhile.
> 
> Saved money and lives, too, as well as reduced the crime rate. Impressive. So yes, it's down to the addict to succeed -- but we CAN help.



I seen addict's complete drug court while doing drugs the whole time. But, I have also seen drug court help people, they just have to be ready.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Tom... I wish him success and hope he will avail himself of the services offered. If worked with dedication, they can be a great assist to success. It will be very hard. I know you will do all you can to help him without slipping into enabling him. It's a fine line. My best wishes to you both, and hugs to you.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

oneraddad said:


> I seen addict's complete drug court while doing drugs the whole time. But, I have also seen drug court help people, they just have to be ready.


Me, too. Both, I mean. You are exactly right. I was just amazed at how much it DID help when someone was ready. I didn't expect that.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

My GD and GS are doing stuff. They shipped him off to his uncle in Why in the hopes isolation would dry him out. GD is 12, and has to take weekly p tests. I so much would give a lot to have 5 mins with whoever hooked her/them up with that stuff. 
There not REALLY my GKs. They were DDs husbands sisters kids, she was a drunk and druggie, and he was a drunk. Ive never met her, but hes a likable drunk. That's fine, but I didn't like him with my DD. Anyway, They finally had enough of having the kids being left with them while she found another guy to string up/out with, and went to court and got them away from her, BUT, more than likely she rigged it so that her desire for that stuff was put into them at birth, and now they have to fight it, if they will.

DD Finally divorced him, and lived with a great guy for around 8yrs or more. She got rid of him and now is married to some guy who owns his own business. I guess shes climbing the corporate ladder, or letting it climb her. She works as a receptionist and bookkeeper for the co.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

swamp man said:


> I wouldn't dare preach. I certainly ain't in a position to. My reply was mostly to Mr. Ankle, and it's my fault for not making that clear, and I'm sorry.
> Your statement of choosing to stay with your demon is understandable. I've been junked on everything anybody ever heard of at one time or another, and I've just done the 'writhing and sweating", and kicked it. At the end of the day, it's the booze that won't turn me 'loose. I don't know why, I certainly didn't ask for this, but it's something I was born with. I have fought it, and it wins. I let go of a beautiful piece of property with timber value to go to rehab, basically rendering myself homeless, but the fact is, 12 step programs are a crock and they don't work.



12 steps didn't work for me. I got to the part where they ask you to admit you are powerless over the drug and you need a higher power. I've always been in control of my life, and that day wasn't going to be any different. I wasn't going to quit for one day at a time, that would take forever.

I decided that day, I quit for the rest of my life and would never do it again.

That was eight years ago


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Twp.Tom said:


> My 21 year old son ( my only son), is trying to kick a deadly addiction problem; He is in court ordered rehab right now- I hope that he makes it, its sad watching your only child, suffer from addiction. He is being guided/helped, but in the end, it is up to him to deal with addiction.


This is what I got for you, Tom. Let your son know, he's a whole lot stronger than he thinks he is. It's so easy to feel weak and just except you're an addict and can't do anything about your addiction. He could probably use a hug also, I hope the best for you and your family.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, and encouragement , I'll tell him that Dad.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> 12 steps didn't work for me. I got to the part where they ask you to admit you are powerless over the drug and you need a higher power. I've always been in control of my life, and that day wasn't going to be any different. I wasn't going to quit for one day at a time, that would take forever.
> 
> I decided that day, I quit for the rest of my life and would never do it again.
> 
> That was eight years ago


I've quit stuff like that, and stayed quit using that same frame of thought. I've kicked about every drug that can be thunk up, but I keep an alcohol habit, and it sucks. I've kicked the sheets through too many drugs, but for me, booze is the mistress that stays. 
I took my first drinks at maybe eight years old when a cousin got married and they left an open, unattended bar. Her sis got hitched shortly thereafter, and I went around and at at the wedding hall and drank up all the extra glasses of champaign, and was off to the races. The "just don't pick it up" doesn't work for all of us, and that's a cold, hard fact.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Sometimes an addiction is simply the people in your environment.

Many years ago a coworker found himself in AA due to his drinking. A number of steps and a couple chips into his program his sponsor accepted an invitation to his house for his evening as host for card game.

His sponsor was extremely shocked that he had beer in the fridge and liquor in the cabinet and asked him in front of us non AA members when he fell off the wagon.

My coworker told him he hadn't fallen off the wagon and was still drinking soft drinks and tea but he knew that some of us enjoyed a beer or mixed drink while playing cards so he kept a stock for us and his wife finally understood that the alcoholic refreshments were for guests and he no longer popped tops or pulled corks out of bottles and quit harping on him for drinking but chewed him out for going to extra AA meetings or out to shoot pool because when he came home without liquor on his breath, she knew he was only going out to get away from her.

When she came in a couple hours later from visiting her mother across town chewing him out for something her mother or sister said to her or did and mixed herself a drink while telling him he might as well plan on going out to shoot pool at the complex rec room after the card game if he didn't want to hear her rant before bed, the guys' sponsor just stared as she went out of the room.

After the game ended and we were all leaving I overheard his sponsor ask him if he ever considered that maybe he had a wife problem instead of a drinking problem.

Apparently he did have a wife problem because he divorced her and married another woman a few years later and they have been together nearly 20 years and three kids and they only go through a couple cases of beer and a few bottles of wine and whiskey every month or so and part of that goes to guests invited for dinner or social evenings.

His current wife enjoys a glass of wine or two and he never drinks more than two or three beers and they both go days without drinking. I saw them a year ago and they still had the half full liter bottle of my brand of bourbon they bought in 2006 when they invited me to a get together at their house. :shrug:


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Shrek said:


> Sometimes an addiction is simply the people in your environment.
> 
> Many years ago a coworker found himself in AA due to his drinking. A number of steps and a couple chips into his program his sponsor accepted an invitation to his house for his evening as host for card game.
> 
> ...


I'm glad your friend can moderate that. Some can, some can't, and I'm on the fence.
It isn't about who we hang out with for all of us, and for those of us that are honest with ourselves, we know dern well that we ain't a victim of surroundings. Heck, I spent ten years drinking all by myself, except when a buddy or girly was present.
Certainly, it was irresponsible for the grown folks to put me in the position, but I woulda' figured out how to be a drunk, anyway. I ain't proud of it, but I own it, and I always will.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

First drink? 4 maybe? Got a black and white photo of me hittin' my dad's Schlitz like a rock star.

Alcoholism runs deep in my family.

August 1989 I said: ENOUGH. 
I quit working in bars, holed up in my apt for a few weeks "gutting it out".....got a factory job, tried to be 'normal'. 
October 17, 1989.......I got pregnant, and that changed everything.
Everything.
Booze was NEVER allowed in my home.
The baby was born on the 4th of July, but ALL her b-day parties were dry...no one was even allowed to byob.
This feeling of being unconditionally loved, needed, wanted.....I didn't want to miss a second of it because I was drunk. I had a reason to live!!
So I had 2 more!! 
This amazing love, motherhood, filled all the empty spaces that the booze once did.

10 years of a lousy marriage can wear on you. And it wore me down.
May 1996, my wheels fell off......and it happened at a camp fire with a bottle of Jagermeister and Cuvreo. It was like I never stopped...like I just picked up where I left off.
18 months of acting like a total complete idiot, I said: God, if you are there, and you save me, you will have my undivided attention from now on.
I absolutely believe He delivered me.
I used to be a lot tougher than I am now.....and still had no control over it.

I am a bartender / server today. 
I have zero struggles when I am work.
I truly deeply believe He delivered me.

I'm in a heck of a mess right now. And 6 weeks ago, I got blind drunk.
Didn't come home, didn't remember 1/2 the night.
I'm a black out drunk.
That monster is still in there.....it will never leave me.
But I now have the power to lock it in a cage, and hold the key.

I hope I never ever, ever, ever look at someone and say:
"You are the way you are because you choose it"
When I don't know that person like I know my own skin.

I would never tell someone with PTSD to "suck it up buttercup" anymore than I would tell someone their "addiction" is disgusting and they choose it.
If I ever become so heartless and unmerciful, strike me down Lord.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

First: Bill is right about the thirties; I was just old enough to know what was happening, and I have little respect for anyone younger who thinks they had a tougher time than those who grew up before me. The best years of my parents lives were spent in the worse years of the last century. The men who who fought WWII were as tough as any who ever lived. To see their children become the "hell no, we won't go", "make love not war' potheads, sorry excuses for mankind, must have hurt them deeply. 

Now; no, none of my family have been either drunks or drug addicts. Insofar as I know none of my extended family are either drunks or drug addicts, though some of them smoke and most take a drink now and then. I myself have a cabinet full of whiskey, some wine, a bit of hard cider that I made last year. I once made delicious peach wine. Some of that collection has been in that cabinet for 20 years, some came here with me. I cannot drink any of it now because I found that it affects my BP medication.

I also have friends who've gone thru AA. One, a very successful fellow who made a lot of money selling high-dollar goods, has been dry for the thirty years or so that I've known him. A former drug addict went thru a rehab program a couple of years ago and has been clean since.

It appears that they get clean and sober when they WANT to get clean and sober. Programs may help and support, but no one can create the desire but the addict. As Laura says, when a drunk decides to clean up, they clean up. 

Falling off the wagon happens, but if the drunk wants, they pick up and go dry again. Like Catholics who go to confession again and again because they are likely to fall off the high road again and again. Human nature does not allow perfection; one has to keep on trying. That means you too buddy, if you want that daughter ever to be proud of you, keep trying. 

I've no intent to insult anyone here, I simply state the facts of my opinions. If those conflict with your own, consider that I am dry and not addicted. I am that way because of my beliefs. I am also careful with insecticides, guns, dynamite, automobiles, electricity and the company I keep.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

You always need to remember there is a huge difference between ''cured'' and ''not using''!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

SO! 

So far we have addressed both the genetic causes of alcoholism and the sociological causes of alcoholosm.

There is a THIRD cause, and it is a pretty major one. 

Hereditary chemical imbalance, also known as having just a touch of one of the mental illnesses. This is not a light hearted subject, though I intend to address it in a light hearted manner!

These people do not see pink elephants or other hallucinations when they stop drinking, they see them when they are sober AND THEY WANT THEM TO GO AWAY! So they drink a bit, it takes the edge off and the pink elephants either go away or they bother them less. I knew one teen who kept hearing whispers outside the window when nobody was there, he hated it, and he used every substance known to mankind because the meds the doctors gave him did not entirely make them go away. It was true that he did not wait for the doctors to try one med after another to see if any of them would work: he was 16 at the time and he lacked patience.

Gee, who would ha' thunk it? An impatient 16 year old! We are all people before we are patients, and at 16 you want things to happen NOW and when he could not get the voices to stop NOW he tried to make them go away with booze, pot and anything else he could get. I learned then how common this approach is: a HUGE amount of alcoholism in this country is triggered by a little chemical imbalance that causes mental illnesses.

The young man, alas, did not prosper. In spite of his family always having his back, he died a few years back in an accident.

But wait! Booze is also as much a medicine as any other psychiatric med! Among other things it can cause sleepiness and many bipolar people use it for this! During a manic stage the bipolar person often cannot sleep, and this can be dangerous. During mania in the hospitals the doctors will use powerful meds to MAKE a person sleep, because if a person is awake for too many days the hallucinations can set in and the patient keeps getting sicker. 

Every adult knows that alcohol makes you sleepy. So, if a person cannot sleep for a couple of days and they sit down with a few drinks and then they *DO* sleep, they think GOOD! GREAT! and then they get on with their lives. The trouble with people who have bipolar is that this is also a sign of mania, and mania keeps coming back. That is why they CALL it bipolar, because of the repeated bouts of mania and depression! And a person who drinks during mania just to get some rest will be getting drunk pretty darned regularly! 

To make things worse, a bipolar person will often drink when they are depressed as well, AGAIN to get rid of the symptoms! Mania, Depression, Mania, Depression, that is a lot of drinking and the person might not realize they have an illness pushing it! They just want to be able to rest....... and then they end up consuming a lot of alcohol and they often get addicted.

There is a site I used to go to for advice with people that I cared about: www.conductdisorders.com that explains it very well. Then people are going from doctor to doctor in an attempt to get their loved ones diagnosed because they are obviously ill, they are often advised to "SHAKE THE FAMILY TREE!". That means, is their a relative with a psychiatric diagnosis? Also, ARE THERE ALCOHOLICS IN THE FAMILY? Because the alcoholics may have the illness also, but are self-medicating with booze! (The point of "shaking the family tree" is that because these are so often hereditary, a person can often get an idea of what illness they are dealing with in their loved one. Getting an accurate psych diagnosis can often take 8 months to a year. )

Both schizophrenia and bipolar are strongly hereditary. These can be traced in a family line even if adoptions occur. And, people with these illnesses often drink because they haven't slept for DAYS and they are so VERY tired, or because they are 16 and scared and they want the voices outside the window to stop. 

And, a huge number of these folks get addicted to booze because they want the symptoms to stop. With bipolar they may not even realize they are ill: they consider themselves "wound up" or they "have the blues", and they do not realize that they are having them in a pattern. 

SO! In my opinion, the three main causes of alcoholism today are Sociological, a genetic inability to metabolize the alcohol properly, and mental illnesses. 

IMHO.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Terri; two of the three we know how to treat; Sociological and the genetic inability to metabolize---just don't drink. We cannot force people to stop drinking, or taking drugs, but those who decide that they WILL stop, do so. Some fall off the wagon and climb back on, but if they really want to they eventually stop. The rest become society's drop-outs. 

We still have to learn how to treat psychological illnesses. Much psychiatry today is still close to witchcraft, but we are learning. When I worked in a psychiatric hospital the doctors were using electroshock and a zombie drug* whose name I've forgotten. Earlier they were using lobotomies. A bit earlier they simply locked them up and forgot them. Now we turn them loose to scavenge on the streets.

Eureka! Thorazine


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle, first you have to accept that you might have a psych problem, and that is terrifying. You are right about the barbarity of earlier treatments.

People would rather think "Oh anybody would take a drink if they were up for 3 nights straight, I am normal, I just need some alcohol". It is far less frightening than a mental illness. 

And, when a person is having heavy mental illnesses they are not likely to have the logic to wonder "Am I drinking often enough to addict me?", because of course what they are reasoning with is the part of the body that is impaired.

O, have you every had a drink? Any drink? I know that I have. It is a very common thing! We have ALL had that "First drink"! And, people who fall off the wagon are generally doing it because they are under severe stress, need to get through the day, and they cannot cope. Often it is not because they will not cope it is because they cannot. 

What I have *NOT* had to do was to decide whether or not to drink after I have been up for 3 days and I am in tears from exhaustion. I have seen one young lady in that state and she was *NOT* playing with a full deck! Severe exhaustion makes people strange and unreasonable.

You are right, we very much need to get better with the psych treatments. What we have is not enough: that is one reason so many psych patients drink. 

And, I am not sure that an unstable alcoholic who can sleep at night is any more destructive than an unstable bipolar who cannot: BOTH are in a world of hurt! And, it does not help any when a man says "My grandfather had a mental illness and they gave him a lobotomy and he became a permenant cripple. Should I ask for mental help or just drink some whisky? Gee, what would be SAFER!" And remember that they are not playing with a full deck at this point. 

Again: I am not well. Not with a psych illness but with 2 physical ones. I will respect ANY addict of any sort who tries as hard as I do to stay healthy. To pass addiction off as something that is totally within a person's ability to control is too simple. I once stayed up with a teen all night long: it was the third night without ANY sleep for her and she would have done ANYTHING to have felt better. 

She was being watched and she did not have any access to alcohol but, if alcohol had been in front of her, I do believe that she would have had that drink. She was hurting and she was terrified and she was very young: she just wanted it to STOP!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I've no quarrel with people suffering from mental illness. Still, it is impossible for me to believe that all drunks are mentally ill, or that drug addicts get that way because they are mentally ill. 

Drugs can fry brains that were perfectly sound, just stupid. So can alcohol. Removing the stigma from intoxication, either alcoholic or drug-induced serves only to encourage more people to feel sorry for themselves. Further, removing the stigma does nothing to discourage children from trying to destroy their futures. 

Perhaps we cannot help the girl you describe, but maybe we can keep a few healthy ones from beginning that downward spiral.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

My kids went to private school and played lots of sports. All but the 19 y/o has graduated from college and have wonderful jobs and family. None of my kids drink and they have never used drugs. I waited for them to leave the nest when I had idle hands to make my mistakes. 

My Mother in-law helped raise my kids by being involved in their day to day life. Thats a pretty big part of why I watch my Grandkids at least a couple days a week. Us older folks have lessons we need to teach the youth.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> My kids went to private school and played lots of sports. All but the 19 y/o has graduated from college and have wonderful jobs and family. None of my kids drink and they have never used drugs. I waited for them to leave the nest when I had idle hands to make my mistakes.
> 
> My Mother in-law helped raise my kids by being involved in their day to day life. Thats a pretty big part of why I watch my Grandkids at least a couple days a week. Us older folks have lessons we need to teach the youth.


In my experiences, I've found that the lessons are best taught by example!


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

I want a drink !!!!!,,,,,,um,,,,,,,maybe not,,,,,,,


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Hard-headed boys learn by example backed up by the threat of mayhem. Some kids listen respectfully and do as they are told. Others have to know that there are immediate and painful consequences for misbehavior. If you get them thru that stage most grow up and do well.

Let's see, how did the old ones say that? Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it?????


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Still, it is impossible for me to believe that all drunks are mentally ill, or that drug addicts get that way because they are mentally ill.


Most certainly NOT! :umno:

I stand my a statement I made earlier: *IF* they try as hard as I do to stay healthy, then they have my respect! (It can take a Doctor 8 months or longer to give a correct psych diagnosis: there is no WAY I can give somebody a casual look and know if s/he is ill or not! I do not even try. )

I judge them PURELY by the effort they are making, and not how well they are succeeding..

The reverse is also true. I lack all respect for those people who choose the life. And some do.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

I think there is a huge psych component to the early use turned to addiction of recreation drugs. I include alcohol in this. I know there are exceptions.... But so many of the folks I know speak of rape PTSD war love loss job loss loss of trust ect that sent them first down that road. I suspect it was a huge improvement over suicide.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

and then there are folks who are addicted to their own opinions, regardless of any scientific research..these folks simply refuse to get help for this egocentric bias, and remain without empathy for anyone they deem to be of an inferior character...more's the pity.:shrug:


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, Lesley; when you see a drunk or a pothead spaced out, when you know that they had a good mind and that they came from a privileged background you tend to wonder why they'd go to such lengths to ruin their lives.

As for the research, what does it say? That if you pay me $$$$ I will tell you that being a drunk or a pothead is not your fault? Does it tell you that some people cannot handle liquor or cocaine and should stay away from it? Does it tell you that certain drugs will destroy your will power and make you and addict? Does it tell you that fire is hot and you should keep a certain distance from it? How many people do not know these things? Do some "intelligent" people need a keeper?

Where does common sense come in Lesley?


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Oxankle said:


> Well, Lesley; when you see a drunk or a pothead spaced out, when you know that they had a good mind and that they came from a privileged background you tend to wonder why they'd go to such lengths to ruin their lives.
> 
> As for the research, what does it say? That if you pay me $$$$ I will tell you that being a drunk or a pothead is not your fault? Does it tell you that some people cannot handle liquor or cocaine and should stay away from it? Does it tell you that certain drugs will destroy your will power and make you and addict? Does it tell you that fire is hot and you should keep a certain distance from it? How many people do not know these things? Do some "intelligent" people need a keeper?
> 
> Where does common sense come in Lesley?


It comes in when you stop being a judgmental jerk!!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Jerk ? You need your posts monitored


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

oneraddad said:


> Jerk ? You need your posts monitored


Do I while you are talking on a public board about your illegal drug use? Please don't post on any of my comments anymore, thank you.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Medical pot is legal here, along with whores and gambling.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

oneraddad said:


> Medical pot is legal here, along with whores and gambling.


Well, congratulations, I am sure you are all set, between your drugs and whores, keep on keepin on man, you are so awesome!


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> Well, Lesley; when you see a drunk or a pothead spaced out, when you know that they had a good mind and that they came from a privileged background you tend to wonder why they'd go to such lengths to ruin their lives.
> 
> As for the research, what does it say? That if you pay me $$$$ I will tell you that being a drunk or a pothead is not your fault? Does it tell you that some people cannot handle liquor or cocaine and should stay away from it? Does it tell you that certain drugs will destroy your will power and make you and addict? Does it tell you that fire is hot and you should keep a certain distance from it? How many people do not know these things? Do some "intelligent" people need a keeper?
> 
> Where does common sense come in Lesley?


I've worked with addicts most of my life..why
is it important to assign blame? What does that serve? Do you believe that a paraplegic should be shunned by society if their condition was caused by speeding?
Do you think that a person who was badly burned due to their own stupidity in mis-using lighter fluid should wear a placard which reads "IDIOT"? 

Do you believe that someone who lost their arm due to a nanosecond of inattention should be publically whipped? 

Do you beieve that people who are depressed should be locked away out of sight?

What would you recommend as treatment for addiction? Shall we shoot addicts when they relapse? Shall we beat them with sticks? What would satisfy your need to punish these people?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Brighton said:


> Well, congratulations, I am sure you are all set, between your drugs and whores, keep on keepin on man, you are so awesome!



Why you so angry ? You've been putting people down since my very first post.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Mods, please don't pull this valuable thread permanently. It contains lots of helpful insight, some of which was generated by commonly held viewpoints (and a few misconceptions) about the nature(s) of addictions. 

Your patience is so very appreciated here! Clean it up if needed, but please don't pull it! 95-98% of this thread is extremely useful. Yep, from both sides of the fence, for without opposing viewpoints, there would be no debate at all, and very little learned...


.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Assigning the blame Lesley works both ways. IF a drunk or an addict couldn't find something to blame, then theyed know theyed get no sympathy from anybody. IF one does something that hurts themselves, and when people ask, WHYED you do it. IF they didn't have some kind of reason, they know they wouldn't get 1/2 the sympathy that they would get with a excuse.

AND YES, IF a person burnt themselves because of ignorance, whether they wear a sign or not, im going to think there an idiot.

I lost 1/2 a index finger on my L hand, and had a 1/3 of my ring finger sown back on cause of inattention. That's my problem. I was a good enough guitar player that I was in a local R&R back when I was a kid. That ended that. That's my fault, its my problem. Nobody elses.

No, I don't believe depressed people should be locked away. im sure mosta u women in here think I must be depressed, the things of my experiences with women ive had. IF I AM Depressed. That's MY problem. I don't think anybody should be locked away UNLESS they are a danger to somebody else. I DIDNT say themselves.

I think we should shoot addicts who relapse, AND HURT/KILL/ROB somebody. Other than that, MY OPENION of them, is JUST THAT, MY OPENION.

They told me, that when I fought for this country, as with EVERY service member, that we were protecting the right for ANY of us to have OUR openion, and NOT have to worry about ANYBODY else making, OR trying to change our openion. BUT, that We didn't have the right to try to make ANYBODY else change THEIR openion to be like ours EITHER.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2014)

FBB..of course you are entitled to your very own unique opinion...saving me from retyping, feel free to read post #73..


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I started smoking pot in the military


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lesley; did I say anything about punishing? Those people are punishing themselves. Neither did I say anything about locking away depressed people. 

What I said was that I think most of drunkenness and drug addiction is self inflicted. Self inflicted by people who are, when they start, sane, not addicted and well able to make choices that will not destroy them. 

Who, with any common sense, sets out to destroy themselves? 

Further, I might as well say that as a taxpayer I resent having to deal with a welfare load of addicts and drunks. I'm not talking about the homeless vet on the downtown streets--I'm talking about the pothead who breaks into my car to steal the spare, the tools, anything he can sell to feed his habit. I'm talking about the drunk whose daughter calls 911 because her mother is falling down drunk and has just cut her head on the counter. Those drunks and addicts cost the country a bundle.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Lesley, I read #73 getting down here, and over looked the slamming parts of it. Read it again yourself, and then try to recall when/ if I EVER was that derogatory about ANY of your postings. Your a friend, and will continue to be one as long as you wish, EVEN THOUGH I don't/can t agree with everything that you believe in. U HAVE THAT RIGHT, to believe whatever you want to and IF I wish to continue to be YOUR friend, I have to accept that, and NOT to try to make you feel bad or insecure about YOUR openions.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

AND Chuck, Have you ever noticed that these kinds of people only spend their money on their habit. They NEVER decorate themselves.

YEAH RIGHT.
Its bad enough that they cheat, lie steal and kill to get the money to support their drugs, BUT they got to do the same thing to make themselves look like the illustrated man or woman.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im not talking about people who work, have jobs that pay well enough for them to have a tat or few. That's their idea, and I cant do anything about it. HOW I FEEL about it, is my problem, and I have the right to feel however I want to about it.
BUT, like you, when these people that are decorated up to the eyebrows, and I saw them twice a week at the plasma center, talking about which churches gave out free food, on which days, and how to work that system to get more than was intended, and how to work the welfare system so that there freezers are full of welfare/church meat they don't have to buy so that they can buy booze instead, and throw street parties with BBQ, AND that I help pay for it, yet I never was invited, it hacks me off.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I got my one and only tattoo in the Navy.


Dang, the military was tough on me.... VD, tatt's and pot


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I wanted to get one with my outfits name, but mom said she didn't want me coming home with any tats, and I sure wanted to come home lol, so I didn't get any.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

CajunSunshine said:


> Mods, please don't pull this valuable thread permanently. It contains lots of helpful insight, some of which was generated by commonly held viewpoints (and a few misconceptions) about the nature(s) of addictions.
> 
> Your patience is so very appreciated here! Clean it up if needed, but please don't pull it! 95-98% of this thread is extremely useful. Yep, from both sides of the fence, for without opposing viewpoints, there would be no debate at all, and very little learned...
> 
> ...


 I agree. It's an important and misunderstood subject, and it bears discussion. There's a problem that not only affects individuals, but affects the community. It won't get solved with narrow-minded thinking. I firmly believe that most chemical addiction CAN be solved, we just ain't figured it out yet, just like we ain't figured out a cure for a lot of other diseases. 
Patience, research, and getting off this 12-step garbage is the way.
Y'all, I try very hard not to tell anyone else how to walk, talk, act, or think, but this a subject dear to me. Please (and I ask as a friend) y'all be civil and don't get the thread pulled.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

FarmboyBill said:


> AND Chuck, Have you ever noticed that these kinds of people only spend their money on their habit. They NEVER decorate themselves.
> 
> YEAH RIGHT.
> Its bad enough that they cheat, lie steal and kill to get the money to support their drugs, BUT they got to do the same thing to make themselves look like the illustrated man or woman.



There is just so much wrong with this, I wouldn't know where to start. So many assumptions and generalizations and overall bitterness. my heart actually hurts for you.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

I have a very dear and close friend that I have known for almost 25 years who is an alcoholic. I am struggling to understand the insanity of his addiction. He desperately wants to quit, and the compulsion to drink baffles him. It frustrates him not knowing why, when things are going great (off booze for months, gainfully employed in a job he loves, etc.) is when the compulsion is the strongest. 

For many years I have watched my friend (and a few others like him) commit slow emotional, mental and physical suicide, and witnessed their self-loathing of lack of willpower over alcohol. I have come to a semi-solid conclusion that their alcoholism is insanity in the clinical sense of the word. Not one of them enjoyed sabotaging their lives so thoroughly as they have done, again and again.They were utterly dismayed&#8212;rocked to the core, really&#8212;at their lack of willpower, in spite of every good intention and precaution. Yep, it IS a choice, but not made with a sound mind, obviously.

Over the years, one man lost three wives and sets of children, along with multiple homes and jobs to alcoholism. Several times, he almost died. He woke up in the hospital wondering why&#8212;in spite of heartfelt promises to loved ones and mighty self-resolve&#8212;did he do the very thing he did not want to do? 

Would it be insane to stick a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger? Of course! That's just crazy! Suicide is not committed by someone with a sound and healthy mind; it is an act of mental derangement. Similarly, it is also insanity when you know that a bottle in the mouth will likely result in a similar ending of a good and happy life, sometimes in slow motion, sometimes quickly (especially if a vehicle is involved).

In that context, insanity--alcoholism--IS a derangement of the mind, an illness, and&#8212;dare I say it?--by that definition, a disease. 

Fortunately for (all but two of) my alkie friends, AA was their salvation. AA is a very successful and the largest alcohol cessation program in the world. But it does not work for everyone. 

So, what is the best way? And why are success rates of different programs so hard to measure?

Here is an interesting discussion about that, and more: http://www.cleanandsoberlive.com/what-is-the-aa-success-rate/

One alkie friend quit &#8220;on his own&#8221;. The methodology he used was very similar to something like this: 
http://www.cleanandsoberlive.com/how-to-stop-drinking-alcohol-on-your-own/, along with a lot of spirituality and prayers involved. He went one-on-one with his Maker. He has been sober and drug free for many, many years. 

There ain't no easy button, f'sure. 

With help, many have found the way out of an impossibly dark tunnel. Interestingly, for most success stories, a strong spiritual connection has been the common denominator. (For a very limited few, sheer willpower did the trick. Unfortunately this is the exception rather than the rule.)

.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

I apologize to those who read my post right after I hit "send"...I couldn't stop editing it! I'm done now, I think. 



.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I have not had a drink or a drug for 33 years next month.
My opinion is just that, based on my life experience. 
I define myself as a sober alcoholic. 

I believe my body chemistry is different than that of a social drinker. There have been studies that indicate that some people are lacking an enzyme which results in physical addiction.

I have no idea if that is scientifically true but I do know that once I pick up a drink I cannot predict what will happen. It took me from the age of about 14 till 24 years old to realize that fact.

I could not understand why, at times , I simply could not just have a couple of drinks and just stop, as I had every intention of doing. It was only a liquid after all, others were able to do so.
I was baffled. Will power did not work..

My drinking and drug use was like a tornado through people's lives. The shame and guilt became all consuming, I did not understand what was happening to me . Every time I drank and hurt those I loved, my self esteem got lower and my walls got higher. It became a viscous cycle .......yet I had no idea how to stop.

I remember well the looks of disgust and judgemental words, they never helped. Believe me , I was full of self loathing. 

It wasn't until I was hospitalized, got everything out of my system, and became educated in what had worked for others that I began to have a glimmer of hope that my life could be different.

I hesitated to share my experience here, some will never understand, but that is okay. I have told some of my story in the hopes that if someone is struggling with drinking and drugs that it doesn't have to be that way. I will help in anyway I can.

If it weren't for the people that reached out to me with loving understanding I would not be the woman that I am today and it is my way of paying it forward.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> I'm not talking about the homeless vet on the downtown streets--I'm talking about the pothead who breaks into my car to steal the spare, the tools, anything he can sell to feed his habit.


Bless you for that comment, Ox! It is FAR more clear than previous comments of 


Oxankle said:


> They get what they ask for.


 and


Oxankle said:


> Stupid, weak willed, Ignorant, or reckless people


I can see where many people thought you said that *ALL* addicts were slime, but now I see that you were simply talking about *ONE* group of addicts, out of the many. Am I understanding you correctly, there?

I can actually agree with that. Some people, addicted or not, are creeps. And, I can think of no creep that cannot be made worse by him becoming wasted.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Oneraddad: You were one of the lucky ones if that's all you got. I can name several who didn't come home. 
Ox


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Terri: I am saying that in today's world EVERYONE knows that drugs and alcohol are dangerous. The sane person, man or woman, who willingly goes into that culture fits into one of those categories.

Roadless' post is one I can appreciate and heartily endorse. There is no need to go thru life as either a drug addict or a drunk. There is hope, and there are support groups, but the individual must CHOOSE to clean up. Laura too has said that it can be done--countless others have done it. Those who don't clean up have made a choice. 

The end is the same for those who do not; a boy I knew as a ten year old followed his father and uncles down whiskey lane. He died in his daughter's arms, cirrhosis, in his fifties. A second fellow I knew of lived on into his eighties, supported by a sugar mama, possessor of a tiny rented apartment and a few pieces of junk. He put on a big front, nice clothes, fancy restaurants on her money, died of "alcoholic liver disease". 

Hell is not a theory; it exists here on earth and we chart our own paths thru or around it.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

I think we all have our burdens. We don't as humans recognize the similarities between being overweight and a drinker or smoker. Some people struggle with gambling. Some just struggle with love and life. I am glad I never was able to tolerate hangovers... As I do love that feeling alcohol gives me. A genetic blessing no doubt.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

roadless said:


> I hesitated to share my experience here, some will never understand, but that is okay. I have told some of my story in the hopes that if someone is struggling with drinking and drugs that it doesn't have to be that way. I will help in anyway I can.
> 
> If it weren't for the people that reached out to me with loving understanding I would not be the woman that I am today and it is my way of paying it forward.


I am glad you shared, and no..... those who have never walked a mile in your shoes will NEVER understand.
Worse yet, they will hold fast to their ideals which are simply not reality. 
That's ok, others opinions do not define us. It defines them.

If you ever watch "Medical Mysteries" they will have 'rare' cases where only a few thousand people will suffer from such an oddball disease....
Like their liver simply does not process X because Y enzyme was not created in the person, in the womb, for WHATEVER reason.......
It's 'interesting' when it's an enzyme, but when someone doesn't have that mechanism in their brain that says "put it down, you have had enough".....somehow it becomes less interesting and more like an excuse.
Again....others opinions do not define us. 

For me, will power and new babies 'worked' until 'extenuating circumstances' wore me down.
Then those demons......such sweet voices they have......wooooed me back in. "Remember the good times....you deserve this....just relax.....".
For me, I need more than my own 'strength'.

Thank you for sharing. 
I hope that these posts impact someone in a very positive way.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Oxankle said:


> Terri: I am saying that in today's world EVERYONE knows that drugs and alcohol are dangerous. The sane person, man or woman, who willingly goes into that culture fits into one of those categories.
> 
> Roadless' post is one I can appreciate and heartily endorse. There is no need to go thru life as either a drug addict or a drunk. There is hope, and there are support groups, but the individual must CHOOSE to clean up. Laura too has said that it can be done--countless others have done it. Those who don't clean up have made a choice.
> 
> ...


 As poetic as that may be, it just ain't an accurate analysis. I have lived this way for thirty years, remained responsible, always been the first guy to show up at work, the last to leave, then picked up a shovel to grow my garden or shovel poop. I am the man that other irrigation guys call when they can't fix something and they're in a bind. I don't steal...I work for a living, and when I have a hangover, I work through it, even when it sucks. I have suffered, though. A lot of people, good people, are in the fight, too. I got back in the bottle a bit after I got out of rehab, and opted to "just quit" several weeks ago, even though I'd been warned that it's dangerous, especially with someone like myself who has superpowers of drinking. I made it for four days, went to walk my dog, and woke up on the sidewalk with an EMT ushering me into an ambulance. Evidently, my "just don't" plan didn't work. That's because I have a DISEASE. 
Rehab cost me around $26,000, my ambulance bill was $981 for basically a 1.2 mile cab ride and a pair of latex gloves, neither of which I asked for.
Most can't afford that, and it don't help, anyway. 
Trying to lump a coker, a meth head, a drunk, etc into the same group is like wild flailing because somebody stole your stuff. The problem is deeper than you're able to see, 'cuz you weren't born with the problem.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Hey Swampman, I smoked meth on tin foil for two years.

Kids did one of those intervention and walked into the garage and said "Dad, we know and you need to stop". So I did !

I thought I was weak and had just accepted this was the way my life was gonna be. I was wrong, I'm a tough old dude that can do Anything I put my mind to.

Two people in this thread have said booze caused a problem in their life, but continue to drink. Theres one on each side of this issue and neither has the will power to stop.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I hit wine pretty hard for 2 yrs on the weekends, cause I didn't have sober people around me at the clubs I went to o on the weekend. I drank when I drove to bar hop. Ive drove long stretches of hwy and got from here to there without remembering I went through 2 towns to get there. 
I quit cause I started dating this young girl who turned out to be #3, and she was good looking. She said shed not go with a drunk, and I wanted to get laid BAD, so I told her I could quit, and I did. MOTOVATION lol. Nothing hard since 74

I quit Camel non filter cigs, cause they kept jacking the prices. MOTOVATION.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> Hey Swampman, I smoked meth on tin foil for two years.
> 
> Kids did one of those intervention and walked into the garage and said "Dad, we know and you need to stop". So I did !
> 
> ...


I somewhat agree. It depends on the individual. I can only speak from my own personal experiences. As I've said, I'm careful of addiction. If I ever NEED a substance, I'll walk way. But then, I've been told that I'm a very strong-willed person.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> I hit wine pretty hard for 2 yrs on the weekends, cause I didn't have sober people around me at the clubs I went to o on the weekend. I drank when I drove to bar hop. Ive drove long stretches of hwy and got from here to there without remembering I went through 2 towns to get there.
> I quit cause I started dating this young girl who turned out to be #3, and she was good looking. She said shed not go with a drunk, and I wanted to get laid BAD, so I told her I could quit, and I did. MOTOVATION lol. Nothing hard since 74
> 
> I quit Camel non filter cigs, cause they kept jacking the prices. MOTOVATION.



But, you still drink beer on occasion, you're weak or have a disease


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> Hey Swampman, I smoked meth on tin foil for two years.
> 
> Kids did one of those intervention and walked into the garage and said "Dad, we know and you need to stop". So I did !
> 
> ...


 I never doubted your toughness. You already proved that serving your country, and you are appreciated. I quit meth without a second look back, because it just wasn't my bag, I guess. Booze is hard for me, though, because I was born for that particular time bomb. I don't know why.
That's part of the point that I'm trying to get at...a methamphetamine addiction and an alcohol addiction CAN'T be treated the same way. That's like trying to cure cancer and AIDS with the same injection, and that's how rehabs are run.
I commend you for ceasing to chase that beautiful white smoke, but maybe it wasn't the one looking to grab you, or maybe you just ain't wired for addiction. I don't know 'cuz I'm not an expert...Nobody is, yet.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

swamp man said:


> I never doubted your toughness. You already proved that serving your country, and you are appreciated. I quit meth without a second look back, because it just wasn't my bag, I guess. Booze is hard for me, though, because I was born for that particular time bomb. I don't know why.
> That's part of the point that I'm trying to get at...a methamphetamine addiction and an alcohol addiction CAN'T be treated the same way. That's like trying to cure cancer and AIDS with the same injection, and that's how rehabs are run.
> I commend you for ceasing to chase that beautiful white smoke, but maybe it wasn't the one looking to grab you, or maybe you just ain't wired for addiction. I don't know 'cuz I'm not an expert...Nobody is, yet.



I was able to quit meth because I had quit drinking a couple years earlier. Alcoholism had gripped my family for a couple generations. Then I quit smoking ciggs, but gained weight and was diagnosed with diabetes. So I started eating right and doing a bunch of hiking and beat that. 

It all boils down to me being an addict and learning how to control it. Right now in my life, I'm into pot and the internet.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> Hell is not a theory; it exists here on earth and we chart our own paths thru or around it.


This Earth can be,, as close to Hell as we will get,,or,,as close to Heaven as we will get,,,,Our free will,,,,A gift...

I too, am a sober alcoholic,,around 5 to 6 years now,,but I didn't learn as fast as others,,,I was a very successful drunk for over 20 years..
I very seldom paid for any drinks or drugs,,I was a musician,,and that's a job benefit!!,,,
I never became physically addicted as I never had blackouts or withdrawal,,,
Nobody or at least a very few knew I was drunk 24 hours a day. 
I managed it,,I knew how many I needed and prepared my entire schedule around my alcohol.
You never saw me broke, dirty, or stumbling about.
I didn't tell lies, and I knew God,,,But I was and am a alcoholic..

I never actually tried to quit,,,I just gave up,,,I didn't care if I died,,Yet I Prayed I would not die drunk,,,!!
I woke one morning with no desire to drink,,,,haven't had a drink since.

I was invited to an AA meeting after I stopped, and learned so much.
I still visit when I want and it really helps me with Life in general.

I wasn't going to post here,,but was reminded by a previous post,, I owe it to someone,, if it might help.

I do think the term "Alcoholic",,was a very poor choice for this,, (What ever it is) 

You should know,, _Drinking and drugging in not the problem,,,It Is A Symptom.... _


Just the opinion of an old guitar player,,,nothing else,,and nothing to argue with me for,,,

Pssst,,,,,Anyone got any Ice Cream??????


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Is there a way to help an alcoholic quit drinking?
Aside from tying them up and locking them away, is there a way to help someone who doesn't seem to realize how bad it's screwed up their life?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

L.A. said:


> You should know,, _Drinking and drugging in not the problem,,,It Is A Symptom.... _
> 
> 
> Just the opinion of an old guitar player,,,nothing else,,and nothing to argue with me for,,,
> ...


 I've never been addicted to either of the substances you mention but I did develop a serious food addiction at one point in my life and in my case, once I realized it was a symptom, the solution became a lot easier. 

It may not work for everyone but it sure helped me straighten out my world.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Dad, Ill drink s bottle, or a 6 pk in AUG. it gets so hot here then, and nothing seems to quench the thirst as well as an ICE COLD beer. Im not drinking it cause of wanting a buzz. IF someone said, (Well heck, if that's all you want, ?????? will quench your thirst a lot better than beer), Id buy it and forget the beer.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm done; those of you with experience on either side of this carry on from here. 

There have been posts from people with real life addictions who have quit--it can be done. I would like to inspire others to quit, or never start, but I cannot say more than has been said. 

I refuse to believe that there is anyone who cannot quit---. _"Hope springs eternal in the human breast_..."; those who try and fail must try again and again until they succeed.
Ox


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm just yank'n your chain Bill, I don't care if you drink.

But.... If you know it could sneak back up on ya, why risk it ?


That would be like having another cigarette, yuck !


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## WhateverWorks (Jun 12, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> The pothead who comes out of the fog and willingly goes back in
> 
> 
> gets no sympathy from me.
> ...


I resemble the first part of this statement "Mr. Ox". And I don't need no steeeennnnkkkking sympathy from you or anyone. coff coff :thumb:


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Late to the so called party as always. It always amazes me that so called Christian people are so judgemental. It makes me wonder if anyone that that goes to church on a regular basis is really listening to God's lessons. A few on here that claim to attend regularly always seem to bend GOD's word to their convenience. Like certain things aren't really lies or certain addictions like porn aren't as bad as drinking or drugs. I guess it is all in how you bend life to make what you do OK.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm afraid it no longer amazes me lol !


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

vicker said:


> I'm afraid it no longer amazes me lol !


I guess I should say it disappoints me more than I am amazed by it. I constantly run into people who will argue they are such good Christians, their all about the bible etc etc yet they will lie and bend the bible to their purpose


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> You should know,, _Drinking and drugging in not the problem,,,It Is A Symptom...._


_

_For me personally? This statement is 100% spot on.
It is the outward expression on an inward problem.
Couple that with the missing mechanism that tells you when to stop......
Not pretty.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Dad. I dont like beer. Never have. I was hooked on WINE. Like I said, I only drink a beer in AUG cause, ICE COLD, it seems to be a good thirst quencher/

Whos been bendiong the Bible to suit their beliefs. NOT ME. LIKE I SAID A !? DOZ TIMES, MY beliefs are my beliefs. There, I guess, also my cross to carry. Heck, Even the pope said he had stolen a watch in his time. Id be the LAST person to say that I was perfect ine every way. I AINT. I still sin on a regular basis. I havnt broken any of the 10 that Im aware of, but I aint perfect.

UNLIKE,
Those who keep bringing the Bible up in conversation whenever it suits them, OR they think it does.
IF anyone sees where I have thumped a Bible at anybody in all these postings, Please show me the post.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Religious beliefs don't add into the solution for someone who is CHEMICALLY ADDICTED, and they ought not be mixed with the scientific research that is so very necessary to get people "well". We will, as a community and as individuals, and as disgrundled people who got something stolt, deal with this problem 'til we step back and take a new approach, because the prison system doesn't work in this circumstance....jail just makes me wanna' get bailed and get drunk. You know I respect you, Mr. Charles, but you can only back a wounded man into a corner so far before he starts throwin' knuckles when he's out of other ideas. Even when you win, everybody loses.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

The only thing wrong with churches?
They're full of people.
It is unfortunate that when a person claims to be Muslim, people instantly think____.
It is equally unfortunate when people claim to be Christian, unless they are PERFECT, 'they are judgemental' among other ugly things.
If they claim 'atheism', then they are just an 'arcehole'.
Funny, those who bang the "you're so judgemental" drum....are judging. Ironic, don'tcha think?

It's part of being human.
As much as I loathe people who 'play church and could win an academy award for their lead role as a 'christian'........
I equally loathe those who sit in wait, teeth showing, drool running down their chin waiting for someone who proclaims Christ as Savior to do something THEY deem 'not perfect' so they can gnash them apart.

Some have found that a relationship with Christ was the 'key' to locking up their addiction demon.
Some have found other ways, and were more than successful.
People have opened up here, and shared deep deep stuff....let's be respectful of that.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

No one thumped the bible. I stated MY opinion same as everyone else stated theirs. Last I heard it was a FREE society. I said I was disappointed in people who seem to lack sympathy or refuse to see beyond their own little box and yet loudly proclaim they are church goers as if that makes them somewhat better then others. If some of the things said here reflect a Christian attitute towards others than we are all in deep do do. Chemical imbalance has NOTHING to do with GOD. It is something you are born with IMO. Once you take that first drink you can be hooked and saying it is EASY to stop because it is a CHOICE is just a bunch of crap. I never had a addiction but I understand what people can go through and I would never say it is their choice too bad.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Some think an alcoholic can't stop drinking once he starts, which is not true.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The only thing wrong with churches?
> They're full of people.
> It is unfortunate that when a person claims to be Muslim, people instantly think____.
> It is equally unfortunate when people claim to be Christian, unless they are PERFECT, 'they are judgemental' among other ugly things.
> ...


You stated that very well. My point was that religion doesn't mix with PHYSICAL science. It is flat-out not a part of the scientific method.
Now, If religion helps an addict to quit, it's a positive thing. For that matter, if anything a person believes help them to be happy with themselves and decent to others, I'm all for it. Worship a rock; just don't throw it at me.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing with LZ5...I quoted her post because it bears repeating, and I haven't had enough coffee.
Willpower?...Self-determination? I reckon that's relative,'cuz I moved out and started supporting myself at 15 years of age with a roofing job in the MS sun, and dragged myself out of bed countless times....fueled with nothing but willpower.
That is what's being missed here....For some of us, willpower is what keeps us in this nasty game. If we were weaker, we'd already be out.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

Do not assume either that all want to quit. Some are perfectly happy as is.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Is there a way to help an alcoholic quit drinking?
> Aside from tying them up and locking them away, is there a way to help someone who doesn't seem to realize how bad it's screwed up their life?


Yes, although it isn't guaranteed to work. It's called "an intervention."

Addicts are masters at rationalization and compartmentalization. They want, more than anything, to be able to go on using, and yet retain the love and respect of the people around them, and the other nice things in their lives.

Of course, that ain't gonna happen, because addictive behavior is erratic and destructive. So one defense mechanism is to compartmentalize. The addict who gets in trouble at work consoles himself with the idea that his wife still loves him. The addict who has alienated his family by way of his bad behavior salves his guilt by saying, "My wife and kids are nuts. There's nothing wrong with me! I still do a good job at work. Heck, I just got a raise last month. So what if I let off steam by having a few drinks afterwards? It's no big deal. That bee...  really needs to get off my back." 

An intervention attempts to wreck this defense mechanism by pulling together people from across the spectrum -- family, workplace, social circle -- to confront the addict and tell him, "YOU HAVE A PROBLEM AND YOU NEED TO GET HELP NOW!" Sometimes being left with nowhere to run and hide will be the reality check needed to push the addict toward recovery.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

We all step down to the addictive world at times; food, booze, whatever. I do not believe they are diseases. They are choices, that have consequences with deeper physical control. 

Its all about not excessing. The bible doesnt say. "dont drink", it says, "do not excess in anything". Its called gluttony. When gluttony is labeled, a disease with a name, this just takes the responsibility off the individual, so now they are a "victim". 

I think people today have too much time on their hands. Too many children with no chores and very spoiled. I see kids not even asked to clean their rooms or shovel snow. They have no responsibilities. Idle minds and idle hands are the devils playground. 

And while Im on my rant, Ive about sick of people labeling themselves, oh, I have "xyz". Please, stop already, we all have crosses, your is no more special than ours, just because you have a label. We all go through tragedies and losses, have fears and lost dreams. 

We are all seeking the same thing in life, the truth.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

farmgal said:


> We all step down to the addictive world at times; food, booze, whatever. I do not believe they are diseases. They are choices, that have consequences with deeper physical control.
> 
> Its all about not excessing. The bible doesnt say. "dont drink", it says, "do not excess in anything". Its called gluttony. When gluttony is labeled, a disease with a name, this just takes the responsibility off the individual, so now they are a "victim".
> 
> ...


 What you "believe" has little to do with anything. You can "believe" that the earth is flat, but it'll still be round. What you "believe" ain't got anything to do with science, and medicine IS A SCIENCE.
...And what about the Bible?...It's a fairy tale about a scary boogeyman in the sky, and it has nothing to do with addiction.
Who, Ma'am are you to assume that we're all seeking the same thing in life? I could be seeking a purple elephant and you wouldn't know because you didn't ask, and you're under the impression that you're an expert. If you have it all figured out, why have you failed to solve the problem of addiction?
....


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

swamp man said:


> What you "believe" has little to do with anything. You can "believe" that the earth is flat, but it'll still be round. What you "believe" ain't got anything to do with science, and medicine IS A SCIENCE.
> ...And what about the Bible?...It's a fairy tale about a scary boogeyman in the sky, and it has nothing to do with addiction.
> Who, Ma'am are you to assume that we're all seeking the same thing in life? I could be seeking a purple elephant and you wouldn't know because you didn't ask, and you're under the impression that you're an expert. If you have it all figured out, why have you failed to solve the problem of addiction?
> ....


Great post!!!!


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## woodenfires (Dec 2, 2003)

"We are all seeking the same thing in life, the truth." 



What have you found so far, for truth, in your search? I have never found a bit of it and I have been looking a long time. You clearly have never been under the spell of the beast, your words reflect that. Read what everyone has wrote here only with lots of compassion, changes everything. We seldom know as much as we think we do, in my experience, if we have not lived something and felt its power. For an alcoholic your truth is filled with judgements that simply don't help. If you really really loved someone and you wanted to save their life you would have to think up a better way that what you describe, you would find it a never ending frustration to judge an alcoholic if you are trying to help, takes way more understanding, you can do better. jim


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

farmgal said:


> And while Im on my rant, Ive about sick of people labeling themselves, oh, I have "xyz". Please, stop already, we all have crosses, your is no more special than ours, just because you have a label. We all go through tragedies and losses, have fears and lost dreams.
> 
> We are all seeking the same thing in life, the truth.


My identifying myself as a sober alcoholic on a thread about addiction was to give background on my opinion and to possibly help someone who may be struggling. 

I do not consider it a cross to bear, simply one of many facts of my life. Not good or bad it just is.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I thought I was done here, but I cannot sit and watch this. Farmgal and Roadless are both correct. So long as an Alkie or a junkie consider themselves helpless victims they will never kick the habit. Alcoholics who kick the habit do so because they make a conscious decision to quit, and stick with it. For the rest of their lives they consider themselves recovered alcoholics--they know the consequences of drink and they stay away from it. If they have a buddy system they may call the buddy, or they may fall off the wagon, but they get back on until at last they are free. 

By the way--would you consider this discussion an intervention of sorts? I do. I WANT you to dry up and stay dry. You are bouncing from pillar to post, losing what is good in the prime of your life. Keep on trying until you can live without the sauce. Get something permanent going for you. You have all the makings of success and you CAN do it. Clean up your act.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

I think farmgal is tired. It can be difficult to have empathy with things you don't understand. And if you don't have a particular problem or lifestyle you have precious little to draw your information from. It is very easy to judge...and have opinions. I hope this thread helps people come together a bit.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

notwyse said:


> I think farmgal is tired. It can be difficult to have empathy with things you don't understand. And if you don't have a particular problem or lifestyle you have precious little to draw your information from. It is very easy to judge...and have opinions. I hope this thread helps people come together a bit.


I do too! Since I have never walked in the shoes of a person who has an addiction, I can't judge. I hope this thread has helped everyone one way or another.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> I WANT you to dry up and stay dry. You are bouncing from pillar to post, losing what is good in the prime of your life. Keep on trying until you can live without the sauce. Get something permanent going for you. You have all the makings of success and you CAN do it. Clean up your act.


I'd like to state, my experience has been that,, dry is not sober,,

I mentioned, I thought "Alcoholic" was a poor choice of terms,,earlier,

But if anything,,,I'm a Grateful Alcoholic,,who has no problem staying dry,,but I continually work to be Sober,,,

I only post here that it may help someone,,,,Me,,uh,,,I don't care what you think of me,,,

I like me enough for everybody,,,,:nana:


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Call it what you will, L. A., dry or sober, it is not falling-down-on-your-face, losing-your-job, losing-your-land, thrown-in-the-pokey drunk. 

You young guys seem to think that it does not disturb old men to see young fellows throw their lives down the tube. Wasting a life is a damned shame. Even if drunks are victims of a "disease" they are not helpless victims, especially not the strong, smart, resourceful ones.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

swamp man said:


> you stated that very well. My point was that religion doesn't mix with physical science. It is flat-out not a part of the scientific method.
> Now, if religion helps an addict to quit, it's a positive thing. For that matter, if anything a person believes help them to be happy with themselves and decent to others, i'm all for it. Worship a rock; just don't throw it at me.
> For the record, i'm not at all arguing with lz5...i quoted her post because it bears repeating, and i haven't had enough coffee.
> Willpower?...self-determination? I reckon that's relative,'cuz i moved out and started supporting myself at 15 years of age with a roofing job in the ms sun, and dragged myself out of bed countless times....fueled with nothing but willpower.
> That is what's being missed here....for some of us, willpower is what keeps us in this nasty game. If we were weaker, we'd already be out.


xoxoxox!!!!!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> ...And what about the Bible?...It's a fairy tale about a scary boogeyman in the sky, and it has nothing to do with addiction.


I agree (I am an agnostic) but what does the Bible have to do with recovery?

I get the impression, Swampman, that you're hostile to A.A., but I can assure you that it does work in some cases. In fact, it saved my life 28 years ago. 

Ahh, but it requires you to believe in a Higher Power, and you don't want to do that, do you? Here's what someone told me, back in the day: Unless you are certain that you are the pinnacle of human achievement (which is hard to believe after you've spent the night and half the morning puking your guts out after drinking too much, LOL) it seems possible to concede that there is _something_ in the universe slightly superior to your sorry self. A big rock? A really old tree? Pick something, whatever -- it's really not all that important what it is -- to be your Higher Power and start working the program already. 

It really will work if you let it.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Oxankle said:


> Call it what you will, L. A., dry or sober, it is not falling-down-on-your-face, losing-your-job, losing-your-land, thrown-in-the-pokey drunk.
> 
> You young guys seem to think that it does not disturb old men to see young fellows throw their lives down the tube. Wasting a life is a damned shame. Even if drunks are victims of a "disease" they are not helpless victims, especially not the strong, smart, resourceful ones.


 Good; we can more or less agree there. 
Where we disagree is that it's just a matter of willpower or partying or stubbornness. It simply isn't. We need a more viable means of treatment, and when I say "we', I mean the entire human population. This is everybody's issue.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> I almost choked when I read one of the lovelorn columnists in our paper today.
> Someone wrote in to discuss an enabler referred to in a previous column and the woman said "addiction is a disease".
> 
> Horse Muffins: Addictions, including alcoholism, are choices. Stupid, weak willed, Ignorant, or reckless people make choices. They knowingly indulge in behavior that experience, medicine, social mores and religion tell them are self-destructive. They get what they ask for.
> ...


I didn't read any more than the first page, since it's late and I'm tired. I do appreciate what you have to say Ox! Seems pretty spot-on to me.

People make choices, I make choices. I can let my want's get ahead of my means. No matter whether it is candy as a five year old, or a fix when you're older. It's a frickin choice! Some choices lack responsibility in making them, and there is a price to pay. Some will learn and some make the choice to disregard.

I'm an addict....by choice....no disease made me do it! It wasn't something I caught, nor can I say I genetically inherited it? Wow! What a copout!

I'm a dipper...what can I say? I do it cuz I enjoy it! The SAME as other addicts! It's my choice, and I might pay a price for it at some time. I don't expect others to pay the price for me though. 

I also like some alchohol on occasion, but d---it I have to buy that stuff as well! Geesh! Is it really suppose to come from my pocket? *Am I suppose to be responsible for my actions? Am I to be held liable for my decisions?*

I see meth-heads around. Is that a disease, or a choice they made? I wish the best for them, but I won't contribute to their funds.

We all make those choices! A post or two mentioned NA's, who might actually be genetically inclined (? I question that) But....still it's a choice, whether you are or aren't!! Are all like that?



Raeven said:


> Where's the "judge not lest ye be judged?" Addiction is a well-documented phenomenon. You saying, "It doesn't exist," is simply not persuasive in any way. Just an opinion, and we all know what they say about those. If that worked, we'd never go to war -- because I'd just say to myself, "Let's just say no," -- and it would come true!
> 
> I think you need to study on this a bit further, Ox, I really do.


 Rae...I've heard the "judge not. lest you be so judged" so many times.. We are also told to discern.

I didn't get that Ox was arguing that addiction wasn't documented, but that it wasn't a disease, but a choice we make.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Little Joe, I would be interested in your opinion of post #94 on page 4 of this thread... For many years, I thought the same as you and Oxankle...until I saw this mess up close and personal. 




.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Please also see Roadless' post #96. 


Addictions aren't always what they appear to be... until one looks closely...
.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

Part of the problem with stopping is that it is so very much harder than starting. Some people start as a way to handle a life they feel they don't belong in. Then realize they are now double cursed. If they were unable to handle their lives to begin with the pain of stopping can be unbearable.


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## woodenfires (Dec 2, 2003)

There is more to this story than some people may know. There is a physical component that is powerful. You see for an alcoholic everything is exaggerated, the way booze feels is not like it is for regular drinkers, the cravings are not the same either. For someone to compare a regular drinker to someone who does not have the issue is really quite silly, you can't, different beast. On the surface it may seem alcoholics are weak minded, willed, whatever, just plain bad dumb people. Don't believe for a second that any of us who have this problem hasn't thoroughly beat ourselves from pillar to post on those ideas. To hear other people's judgements of us does not help us so why bother, whats the intention with that? Throwing your bible at us won't help either, Is that really how Jesus would deal with such things, to say we are weak no goods, I don't think so but I may be wrong about the man. I do know that the Dali Lama is about compassion and forgiveness, that seems to work wonders. 

If anyone is interested in this thing and not just into judging it there are lessons to learn here. Several people have described their experience, they have lived it, there experience says something very different than what those who are judging are saying. Your experience is just that, yours, to a problem drinker, alcoholic, whatever label you choose, that experience is different, can anyone describe to another what it is like to have cancer, symptoms maybe but what it really feels like to have that in your body is personal and cannot be known by someone outside of it. That's what its like to be see an alcoholic, you can see the person suffering, see them lose their relationship, job, whatever the case but you can't be that person and feel what they feel. People have no clue the amount of suffering involved when you come to the conclusion that you cannot drink like others. Out of ten people who go to a bar there will one or two who after the others go home will stay or go to another bar. They don't know why except to get more booze, they don't know why they don't go home to their families like the others do, but there they are saying how much they love their families, and they mean it despite how it may look. That's the mind game at work that alcohol plays on problem drinkers, it doesn't play those games on others so its very difficult to understand. Once we get to stage 3 and 4 in our drinking, advanced stages, the bottle runs the show, its like another entity inside dictating our lives and we follow. 

I could tell a thousand stories of growing up with 2 alcoholics, trying to figure out what life is about from a couple of drunks can be a bit confusing, makes the world seem a touch different from what others see. Hanging out with friends, unless they are from alcoholic homes its not so easy to relate to their world, a world with maybe no booze in their homes, can't picture it. So, school is a different experience, socialization is not the same for all but we treat people as if it were. One minute your mom tells you that you are a miracle, loves you so much, wants to buy you a new bike or maybe a pony, then, just a few minutes later you are the kid from hell they wished they would never have had, bit confusing again. How can someone who never experienced such things know about it? 

Then as I have said there is a physical component. In the 1990s a Dr from New York was doing autopsies on heroin users for some study about long term effects of the drug, found a substance called TIQ, can't recall the huge name for it, but, it's a whitish grey substance found in the brains of heroin users and they thought in no one else. Then one night a guy who had froze to death on the street was brought in and put with the people this Dr was working on. She did an autopsy and found TIQ in his brain, she thought he was a heroin user but instead it turned out he was a drunk and never used other drugs. It was a fluke but she decided to follow that idea up and found that all alcoholics have this substance in their brains, it is accumulative over time, meaning the more a person uses alcohol the more of it they have. This may be a reason why alcoholics are not able to drink normally even after they have been off of it for years, the TIQ never goes away, so, they start where they left off and in short time are back where they were before they quit. How this chemical functions is still unclear, strange it is there at all but this clearly shows alcoholics are different from others. 
No one can beat themselves up like an alcoholic. Its a great mystery why something inside a bottle can defeat a person, anyone that thinks this is funny has really got the wrong idea. We understand how it sounds, looks, no one knows better than a drunk how it all feels. I can't describe the guilt a person feels after promising someone you love you won't drink and then get hammered. Nothing like it, again, these feelings for an alcoholic are very powerful, heightened ten times, guilt, self loathing, depressions. No one wants this, its awful and to add the judgements of others is not helpful. Anyone wanting to truly help someone suffering from alcoholism or any addiction for that matter will be wise to keep judgements to themselves, it won't help except to make it worse. 

Someone mentioned about natives having more alcoholism than other societal groups. This is true but again not because there is anything wrong with them, they are not weaker or any thing like that. It seems experience is the culprit. For example, Italians have over 5,000 years of drinking alcohol, they have passed this ability down through genes and have become use to the effects of alcohol in a way that natives have not. Compare native Indian drinking history with that of Italians, easy to see the difference, we can predict the level of alcoholism is any group by looking at their overall history as a group. 

Again, no one wants this monkey on their backs. I saw a guy I knew my whole life in the hospital, his liver was gone from booze, he spotted me and call ed me over, begged me to get him a drink, he knew I knew how bad he wanted it, his liver was gone, nothing left, but, the one and only thing he wanted was a drink, insanity at its finest but I have seen such things with alcoholism a lot. Drinking in the late stages of alcoholism is insanity and insane things begin to happen to you. This not a simple problem people, it has nothing to do with will power, AA is a blessing for many but really about ten % of people who go are helped, that's about the size of the problem in society also. I totally agree with Willow, if the thought of God scares you off ignore it, its not hard to find an example of something more powerful than yourself, in time the word God will not bother you as much as you become comfortable in your own beliefs. Those that believe forcing God on anyone are behaving in a counter production way, it only makes someone back away even farther, if you truly want to help then read everything you can get your hands on the issue then decide, a gut reaction to this problem is more harmful then helpful. 
One last thing. If anyone wants to see real miracles happening then go to AA meetings. With judgements removed peoples progress can be a beautiful thing to see, in time the judgements won't matter because you will know the truth about you and what others think becomes unimportant. Best of luck to anyone still suffering, once you know for sure that you cannot drink as others do then real freedom begins, no easy road but better than the road paved with booze which leads straight to hell. jim


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## ceresone (Oct 7, 2005)

I've skipped over most of the comments, no intention of being caught in the middle. I just want to say that most of us--if any, that was born in the thirties evidently have a different perspective on life


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I bet it still bugs some that women can vote


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

If everybody felt like I feel when I take a second drink there would not *BE* an alcohol problem. When I am drunk there is no joy and there is no payoff for drinking. None, nada. Zip.

For me to not drink is not a matter of virtue, it is a matter of lack of temptation. I do not wish to as it makes me feel rather sleepy and not much else. I do enjoy the taste at times and I do drink a little bit but I always stop after one drink. Because, I do not like the effect of that SECOND drink! If I am out with friends I just quietly switch to OJ. 

I know that I am unusual in this: perhaps that is one reason why I accept that an alcoholic may react differently to booze than some!

Actually, I suspect that the Italians, who have been drinking for thousands of years, have hit on a SOCIOLOGICAL method of discouraging alcoholism instead of a physical one. I know that in my Father's family (they are Portuguese) everybody drinks but nobody gets drunk. Wine is seen as food instead of as a method to get wasted. In our family, just as a person should not eat food until they feel sick a person should not drink wine until they are drunk. 

Then again I might not b the only member of my family that does not not get a bit of a high if they have more than one drink, as we have a lot of genes in common!

I am pretty sure, though, that if everybody just got sleepy on that second drink that this society would not have an alcoholism problem!


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I knew a girl who was just a wonderful, beautiful young lady until she tried alcohol on her early teens. I had known her for many years up to that point, she was 8 years younger than me, and lost track of her when I was in the service. I ran into her again when I was 30, and we dated. She knew she was addict and an alcoholic and had been clean for some time. Beautiful, funny and intelligent but, alcohol was poison to her. And she knew that but, even a picture of alcohol would grab hold of her. We would pass a billboard on the highway and I would see absolute lust in her eyes. It was an incredible thing to see. 

Of course she eventually fell for it again, of course she did! The last time I saw her, I walked in on her smoking crack on my couch. I had known her all her life, but I was in a fight for my kids, and I knew she had absolutely zero control over that monster in her life. There was nothing in her that could win against that. I turned her out and have never seen her again. I hope she ended well, but I doubt it.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2014)

Compassion, caring, love ...do not equal "free pass", "No consequences", "excuses for poor choices"...we ALL make poor choices at one time or another..ALL of us..and, unless we are smothered by enablers, we pay the consequences for our own choices..

People mistake love and compassion for being "weak"..as if merely loving someone encourages their poor choices..that, IMHO, is inhumane and ridiculous..I love my children..never let them burn their hand in a fire to "show them" it's hot...never said "Poor baby. You can have more allowance since you spent yours foolishly".
.never said to an inmate, "too bad the jury convicted you of murder."

Compassion doesn't erase personal accountibility....drunk? using heroin? I'll love you 'til the cows come home..and don't call or write or visit until you're clean and sober, then I'll hug you and welcome you home and we'll start again.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

That is a very good post Woodenfires,,,

I find it sad,,, that it probably won't be read,,


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

"Compassion doesn't erase personal accountibility....drunk? using heroin? I'll love you 'til the cows come home..and don't call or write or visit until you're clean and sober, then I'll hug you and welcome you home and we'll start again."

Now Lesley, this is something of a puzzle to me. If, as so many claim, addictions are a disease over which the addict has no control, why does not that erase personal accountability? In fact, in the common law of many countries until recent years the unlawful acts of drunks were ignored. Even today we recognize temporary insanity. 

Now virtually all jurisdictions are holding the drunk and the druggie accountable. Just yesterday a woman, Marquita Littlebear, a drunk and a drug user, got forty years in prison for killing a woman with her car. If Marquita is in fact a victim of disease that renders her incapable of controlling herself should she not be acquitted of murder?
Ox


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Here is something on Woodenfire's TIQ. I'm sure it is not the last word, only the present state of knowledge. Credit to Wikipedia

"Tetrahydroisoquinoline derivatives may be formed in the body as metabolites of some drugs, and this was once thought to be involved in the development of alcoholism.[2][3][4] This theory has now been discredited and is no longer generally accepted by the scientific community,[5][6][7][8] but endogenous production of neurotoxic tetrahydroisoquinoline derivatives such as norsalsolinol continue to be investigated as possible causes for some conditions such as Parkinson's disease.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]"


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

I guess some people just,, can't or won't try....

Could be with drinking, drugging, eating,,forgiving,, etc.,,,,_,AND LEARNING_.......


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> "Compassion doesn't erase personal accountibility....drunk? using heroin? I'll love you 'til the cows come home..and don't call or write or visit until you're clean and sober, then I'll hug you and welcome you home and we'll start again."
> 
> Now Lesley, this is something of a puzzle to me. If, as so many claim, addictions are a disease over which the addict has no control, why does not that erase personal accountability? In fact, in the common law of many countries until recent years the unlawful acts of drunks were ignored. Even today we recognize temporary insanity.
> 
> ...


My mother was an insulin-dependent diabetic..she had zero control over her disease..nothing that she could DO would cause her pancreas to produce insulin...it was therefore her responsibility to CHOOSE to follow the diet which kept her healthy, or not...she often CHOSE to eat 2 (that's two) Hershey bars at night...the next day she'd call me, asking why her blood sugar was over 300 and she felt "ill"...she knew why..she wanted to hear a lie, that she could eat candy bars and still feel well...total denial of her illness, and she wanted me to pretend along with her..didn't happen..

A heroin addict can DO NOTHING to erase his addiction to heroin..his body, like a diabetic or an alcoholic demands it...the only choice that he has is to do whatever he needs to do to stay clean and sober...sometimes he'll waver and "eat that candy bar"..

Having any disease doesn't make a person a puppet to it....or release them from the consequences of failing to treat it ...their behavior does not create the disease nor cure it..only manage it ...An alcoholic who gets drunk and drives and kills someone is, of course, guilty of vehicular manslaughter...the consequence is, and should be, prison.
A drug addict who robs a store for $ to buy meth is guilty of robbery, and the consequence is, and should be, prison.
The diabetic who eats Hershey bars is guilty of raising their own blood sugar to dangerous levels and the consequence is worsening of the damage to their body..

Castigating people for having a disease is just plain old mean-spirited. 
Non-addicts and non-alcoholics and non-diabetics truly beleive that managing these diseases is EASY...it's not. Trial and error, finding the key to what works for the individual for treatment, etc. is a process..a life-long process.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

I suppose, from reading all these posts, that the core of the opening post is... It's a really good thing that some people make extremely poor choices; this allows other people, who really need to feel superior, the opportunity to do so...


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> If Marquita is in fact a victim of disease that renders her incapable of controlling herself should she not be acquitted of murder?
> Ox


Incapable is not the same as being hard. As I have said before, I would expect a person with such an illness to put forth major effort.

For example, a person with diabetes might have a blood sugar of 125 which is normal, but they still have the disease called diabetes. 

I have not succeeded with everything I have wanted to do in my life but I have done my best. If an alcoholic has done their best and failed then I do not think less of them: I only think less of them if they have NOT done their best. Nobody succeeds at everything.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

As much as I don't want to, I will attempt to explain some things.
AA works for some people, but very few in the grand scheme. For the most part, the entire idea is a FAILURE. Our typical rehabs don't work, but we keep sending the public through them, sending them to AA or NA, and expecting them to come out "fixed". It don't work, and trying the same plan over and over is just stupid.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

First one has to be convinced that it is a disease that negates free will. Feeling superior has nothing to do with it. If it is truly a disease the feeling would be "lucky", not superior. 

Further, we've managed to cure polio and a great many other diseases--why not alcohol and drug use? If forced to choose, I'd go along with the person who said that addiction might be a symptom of a greater problem rather than a disease in its own right. 

No one so far has suggested that a person with diabetes who eats a candy bar is anything but a choice made by a person who is rational but unwise. If that is comparable to alcohol or drug addiction my own opinion would be reinforced.
Ox


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2014)

alcohol and drug addiction will be "managed" when people who don't have those diseases stop treating the people who DO have them as if they are sub-standard 
human beings who just need a good horse whipping..there is very little funding for treatment research for these disorders...they aren't as popular as the diseases which are viewed as tragic vs character disorders.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

A question: Several people here have said that they went on the wagon and stayed there for extended periods. A fellow who came by a bit ago told me that his understanding was that almost all recovered alcoholics had a spiritual side to their psyche--all believed that they must someday answer to God. Some cried out to Him for help and subsequently stopped drinking. 

Here's the question: How many of you who are now non-drinking alcoholics have a spiritual belief, and do you think that any of that belief played a part in your decision to quit drinking?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I believe there is no God, so I stopped drugging and drinking on my own.

If you don't have a sex partner, porn is useless, just like a stripper.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> A question: Several people here have said that they went on the wagon and stayed there for extended periods. A fellow who came by a bit ago told me that his understanding was that almost all recovered alcoholics had a spiritual side to their psyche--all believed that they must someday answer to God. Some cried out to Him for help and subsequently stopped drinking.
> 
> Here's the question: How many of you who are now non-drinking alcoholics have a spiritual belief, and do you think that any of that belief played a part in your decision to quit drinking?


I am not a terribly spiritual person. I tried to become a Christian when I got into recovery, but then I actually read the Bible and said, "Oh my! 
Really?" and that was pretty much the end of that. ound:

Luckily I stuck with the program, though. My idea of a Higher Power was always a bit wifty, I guess ... something along the lines of "the collective good in the universe." I didn't try to get too specific and that's OK ... it is not an actual supernatural being of some kind that waves a magic wand and fixes you, I don't think; it's how you change your way of thinking and your life by working the steps.

And I worked the program like a fiend for about 2 years. I'm talking 3, 4 meetings a week. It turned my whole life around ... I came out an entirely different person than I was when I started. 

After a time, I moved to a new town, and before I could get hooked up with the A.A. community there, I met a guy, we started dating, and in short order I got pregnant and was married less than 4 months later. With everything going on in my life, I didn't get back into A.A., but I didn't return to drinking, either. My new husband was not a drinker or partier, and we led sober, responsible, respectable lives together for many years. 

It was probably 7 or 8 years later that I was out of town at a conference with a bunch of women I worked with. We all went out to dinner, and everyone else ordered fruity umbrella drinks, and for some reason, I said, "What the heck," and ordered one, too. And then was scared to death, because A.A. teaches that you can NEVER go back to drinking socially! But ya know what? I did, and it didn't destroy my life. I have no explanation for that. Some might say I wasn't really an alcoholic, and I wouldn't argue with them ... all I know is that for about 8 years, scoring booze or drugs was pretty much the focal point of my life. Most of the people I partied with back then are now in recovery, in prison or dead. 

I tend to think that I sobered up at a young enough age (19) that my habits weren't set in stone, and I was able to totally revamp my life and rewire my brain somehow, to the point where I ceased to be an alcoholic. Nowadays I drink very lightly, rarely to the point where I feel the effects, and if I do (for instance, because I've taken a drink on an empty stomach) I stop right there; I have no desire to get intoxicated. This is totally different from when I was a practicing drunk ... I never drank without becoming completely wasted. I'd drink until I either ran out of booze or passed out. 

Oh that's another thing ... nowadays I can have bottles of booze that hang around the house for months or even years. That never would have been possible 'back in the day,' because once I started drinking, I'd drink up anything I could get my hands on. These days, I'm like a normal person, LOL. BTW, I still use the stuff I learned in the program on a regular basis ... the parts about taking a moral inventory, owning up to character flaws and being willing to relinquish them. (Though sometimes it's still hard to talk the drowning person into letting go of the rock.) :hysterical:

I do think a person has to "hit bottom" and be willing to do _anything_ to get sober in order for recovery to work. In my case it was pretty simple; I knew if I didn't change, I was gonna die, so I grabbed on to the only life preserver available to me. (In this country, rich people get to go to rehab and/or into therapy, while poor people turn to religion and/or A.A.)


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> Here's the question: How many of you who are now non-drinking alcoholics have a spiritual belief, and do you think that any of that belief played a part in your decision to quit drinking?


I'm guessing you didn't read the posts,,,,,,that explains a lot.....:facepalm:


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LA: I read the posts but I wanted this aspect of recovery to follow in one place. 

I am left wondering how those who protest that this is a disease that cannot be willed away deal with the testimony of those who simply decide not to drink again. 

OneRaddad and WillowGirl provide some needed insight for those who are not spiritually inclined.

Perhaps we'll hear more from others.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> LA: I read the posts but I wanted this aspect of recovery to follow in one place.
> 
> I am left wondering how those who protest that this is a disease that cannot be willed away deal with the testimony of those who simply decide not to drink again.
> 
> ...


Ox,,In my experience and opinion,,You haven't grasp the idea that "Alcoholism" is So much more,,, than drinking or drugging.
These are symptoms. 
I did stop drinking,,I did need God,,,I still work every day fighting my alcoholism,,,

Stopping or quitting drinking does not cure,,,

You can control the symptoms of the flu,,but it doesn't cure it.

I hate repeating myself,,,but,,I only post these things in hope to maybe help someone,,

I am not ashamed,,but some here have insinuated I should be..

I am a Happy, cheerful human,,,who plays a little guitar, likes Ice Cream and smoked oysters,,,,,Oh,,,and Girls!!!

:happy:


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> I am left wondering how those who protest that this is a disease that cannot be willed away deal with the testimony of those who simply decide not to drink again.


These are two different things.

Can you picture alcoholism like broken brakes? The car and the body are both busted. The alcoholic may or may not drink and the car may or may not crash, but either way both are broken.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I think in my case, I had a huge amount of pain generated by my childhood (heck, by my _parents'_ childhoods, and their horribly unhappy lives) and no adequate coping mechanism until I discovered booze. 

I had my first drink at age 11 and it was love at first sip. I loved everything about the stuff -- the way it made me feel, the way it took away my pain. From that point forward, my life largely revolved around getting booze, and, in short order, drugs, which served the same purpose. I would do anything and lie to or steal from anyone to get what I needed, without a shred of remorse. It was worth it to escape the pain. However, the substances that made me feel good eventually began to betray me and to wreck my life, alienating friends and family, and bringing me very close to death from OD'ing several times. 

Eventually, after a REALLY close call (I should have died and have no explanation why I didn't), I was scared enough to be motivated to change. Luckily, A.A. gave me a new tool kit and better ways to deal with the pain than by drinking or drugging. It also showed me how to live in such a way that I wouldn't create problems for myself that I would then have to escape by hiding in the bottle. I'm happy today, and have been for many years ... I don't have the need or desire to medicate anything, and thus no compulsion to get wasted.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Ox,,In my experience and opinion,,You haven't grasp the idea that "Alcoholism" is So much more,,, than drinking or drugging.
> These are symptoms.


Amen to that ...

I'll add that I think when parents find out their kids are abusing drugs or alcohol (I don't mean just taking a drink at a party, but _abusing_) the focus is always on getting the kid to stop. 

But the booze or the drugs aren't the _real_ problem ... the real problem is why the kid is turning to substances to cope in the first place. 

But too often the focus is simply on removing the crutch ... see why that doesn't work? :teehee:

(BTW, this also applies to adults.)


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'll add one more thing:



> I am left wondering how those who protest that this is a disease that cannot be willed away deal with the testimony of those who simply decide not to drink again.


Yes, there came a day when I said "I am done with this stuff," but if I had simply attempted to quit drinking -- if I'd tried to do it on willpower alone, and hadn't gotten into the program, and learned stuff, and had people "call" me on my bullpucky from time to time, and straighten my head out -- I'm pretty sure I would have failed miserably. 

That's not to say there aren't people who just quit cold turkey; I'm certain there are; they're just made of way tougher stuff than I am. ound:


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im spiritually inclined
Spirituality had nothing to do with my quiting wine
The RIGHT FOR ME motivation did.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im setting here right now drinking grape cranberry juice for to help with not getting colds. Nearly anything I drink, I try to find that which has a grape flavor to it


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> That's not to say there aren't people who just quit cold turkey; I'm certain there are; they're just made of way tougher stuff than I am. ound:


That could be. I know that my FIL did it, but then he was a WW2 vet with combat decorations. And, as I have said before, I do not get the lift in mood that most folks do, and so I never wanted to drink too much: I have no first hand knowledge.


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