# Time's Up- on sexual harassment



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"Women in Hollywood are welcoming the new year with resolution.

In response to the sexual harassment allegations that rocked the industry in 2017, Reese Witherspoon, Eva Longoria, Shonda Rhimes, Ashley Judd and Natalie Portman and hundreds of others have unveiled Time's Up, an initiative dedicated to confronting abuse of power and promoting workplace equality." “It’s very hard for us to speak righteously about the rest of anything if we haven’t cleaned our own house,” _Scandal _creator Shonda Rhimes tells the _Times_. “If this group of women can’t fight for a model for other women who don’t have as much power and privilege, then who can?” 

From: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...ct-reese-witherspoon-shonda-rhimes/994268001/


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Here we go again....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Here we go again....


Do you think that men should be able to sexually harass/assault women at will? Please explain why you feel the need to disparage a group of powerful women that are helping other women? Or was it directed at me personally?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you think that men should be able to sexually harass/assault women at will? Please explain why you feel the need to disparage a group of powerful women that are helping other women? Or was it directed at me personally?


Nope. But do you really believe women are angels and never speak or act the way some of these men have? It’s only on the news because it revolves around famous people.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Hollywood has long been a hotbed (pun intended) of pay-for-play sex, with movie and TV roles being the coin of the realm. 

_Quelle horreur!_ These ladies are now shocked, shocked!, that what was common knowledge and given a wink and a nod, is now a scourge that must eradicated. While sexual harrassment should happen to no one, these are not the people I would pick to lead the charge.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Jolly said:


> Hollywood has long been a hotbed (pun intended) of pay-for-play sex, with movie and TV roles being the coin of the realm.
> 
> _Quelle horreur!_ These ladies are now shocked, shocked!, that what was common knowledge and given a wink and a nod, is now a scourge that must eradicated. While sexual harrassment should happen to no one, these are not the people I would pick to lead the charge.


Does it matter who leads the charge as long as change happens? I got no impression that the women involved are one bit shocked about the long history of the casting couch. 

I think everyone has been aware that these things have gone on for many years but it's a bit more shocking when you read about that casting couch mentality extending beyond women to include minors, straight men who were expected to have homosexual relations. Because it's gone on for a long time, is really no reason for it to continue and continuing the way it is, is destroying careers so I'm guessing not everybody is satisfied with the way it's been working.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I think it does matter who leads the charge. While some people can divorce the message from the messenger, most either can't or won't.

I think a single mother trying to make ends meet being harassed in an office carries more weight and generates more sympathy for the cause, than some Hollywood actress.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)




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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

It's went on forever and will continue to go on. I saw the other day where Caitlyn Jenner has accused Bruce Jenner of fondling for over 50 years.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

poppy said:


> It's went on forever and will continue to go on. I saw the other day where Caitlyn Jenner has accused Bruce Jenner of fondling for over 50 years.


What!

You mean they were in danger of not being in the newspapers and magazines? That's a family I wouldn't believe a word coming out of their collective mouths. Talk about a bad messenger...


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

poppy said:


> It's went on forever and will continue to go on. I saw the other day where Caitlyn Jenner has accused Bruce Jenner of fondling for over 50 years.


NOW that is funny....I don't care who you are......Bhohahaha


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Jolly said:


> I think it does matter who leads the charge. While some people can divorce the message from the messenger, most either can't or won't.
> 
> I think a single mother trying to make ends meet being harassed in an office carries more weight and generates more sympathy for the cause, than some Hollywood actress.


I think anyone impacted by sexual abuse in the workplace deserves a voice (including men) but I'm pretty confident that if single mom gets fired or demoted for reporting sexual misconduct, there's a strong chance the media isn't going to beat a path to her door.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wr said:


> I think anyone impacted by sexual abuse in the workplace deserves a voice (including men) but I'm pretty confident that if single mom gets fired or demoted for reporting sexual misconduct, there's a strong chance the media isn't going to beat a path to her door.


That's is why it is important that the single mom have her voice heard in the one place it will do some good, in the courtroom shortly after the abuse takes place.... Not on the news forty years later.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Interesting question. Say woman A had been sexually harassed by a man and failed to report it. He goes on to harass woman B. Could woman B include woman A in her lawsuit because her inaction allowed the man to remain in power?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Every time I hear or read a man complain that women do it to, my bull crap radar goes off. No sh


watcher said:


> Interesting question. Say woman A had been sexually harassed by a man and failed to report it. He goes on to harass woman B. Could woman B include woman A in her lawsuit because her inaction allowed the man to remain in power?


Is there any instance where a victim gets victimized again because they did not report something?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Every time I hear or read a man complain that women do it to, my bull crap radar goes off. No sh
> 
> Is there any instance where a victim gets victimized again because they did not report something?


I'm sure there are. Victims often continue to allow themselves to be victimized because they don't report what is happening to them. How many women were victimized by Harvey Weinstein because the woman before them refused to report him? I think I read more than 25 women have accused him. Isn't it logical to say at least 24 women were harassed because the first one didn't report him? 

If you know the brakes are faulty on a vehicle and you don't report it would you not be at least partly responsible if the person who drove it after you got into an accident?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Dominance is deeply rooted in our DNA. The most dominant got to breed. We see it in a playground. King on the Mountain determines the strongest as the winner. We see it in the pecking order of a flock, a herd or among siblings. Once the Alpha male is established, it doesn't just remain that way. There is steady pressure to un-seat the King. There is also steady pressure to assert that dominance.
Dominance is power. When a movie producer holds the power to launch a starlet, a measure of his power is evidenced by her willingness to tolerate his advances. People seek power and influence. What good would it be if you had power and influence yet couldn't test your power or exert your influence over others. Charming another man's wife or publicly humiliating someone are other measures of dominance.
When the most beautiful woman shows up at a party, she dominates. She expresses her power by ordering the guys around, "Darling, bring m a drink." Other woman are powerless. It happens many times every day. The oldest profession is an exchange of power. He has money that she wants and she offers the sex that he wants.
It is normal for a woman to muster whatever power or dominance she has to lure/attract the man most likely to provide her with a position of power and dominance at the highest point of the social pecking order. All the while, a man is seeking out a woman that he feels he can cut from the herd that will augment his position of dominance in their social circle.
We are a long way past just grabbing a woman and hauling her off to the closest cave. We live in a civilized society. There are laws and rules of behavior. But through it all, there are underpinnings of the quest for dominance. Some men and women play it like a checkers game, others chess.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That's is why it is important that the single mom have her voice heard in the one place it will do some good, in the courtroom shortly after the abuse takes place.... Not on the news forty years later.


Workplace issues are generally handled by HR rather than courts, although I have heard of a couple cases where women successfully sued their employers from not protecting them from sexual misconduct.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

wr said:


> Workplace issues are generally handled by HR rather than courts, although I have heard of a couple cases where women successfully sued their employers from not protecting them from sexual misconduct.


Yup. Any smart company knows that it is cheaper to fire an employee, to show their interest in protecting an employee, than to risk going to court. Often it doesn't matter if it is fact based.
A guy would be foolish to believe that after decades of faithful service that an employer would stand behind him in a she said/he said incident. Suddenly you become the dog poop that they can't scrape off their shoe fast enough.
To be fair, it isn't just sexual harassment cases that cause employers to throw you out. Teachers and school bus drivers face this all the time, too. Easier to hire a new teacher or bus driver than combat a few angry parents.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Yup. Any smart company knows that it is cheaper to fire an employee, to show their interest in protecting an employee, than to risk going to court. Often it doesn't matter if it is fact based.
> A guy would be foolish to believe that after decades of faithful service that an employer would stand behind him in a she said/he said incident. Suddenly you become the dog poop that they can't scrape off their shoe fast enough.
> To be fair, it isn't just sexual harassment cases that cause employers to throw you out. Teachers and school bus drivers face this all the time, too. Easier to hire a new teacher or bus driver than combat a few angry parents.


Something else that I have seen with my own eyes is an accusation being used to remove a highly paid person when another is available at a much lower salary. I've had to train someone that replaced my boss and I knew that my boss was not guilty of the accusation that was leveled. Corporate Machinations.

Extra Note: the woman that fired my boss was later discharged for inappropriate behavior with a front line employee that was also walked out the door on her say so....


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Shine said:


> Something else that I have seen with my own eyes is an accusation being used to remove a highly paid person when another is available at a much lower salary. I've had to train someone that replaced my boss and I knew that my boss was not guilty of the accusation that was leveled. Corporate Machinations.
> 
> Extra Note: the woman that fired my boss was later discharged for inappropriate behavior with a front line employee that was also walked out the door on her say so....


Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

painterswife said:


> *Every time I hear or read a man complain that women do it to, my bull crap radar goes off.* No sh
> 
> Is there any instance where a victim gets victimized again because they did not report something?


so men are the only ones who rape, sexually harass and assault? Give me a break! Read the news, female teachers are in it daily for acting inappropriately with male students. Same concept, someone in power taking advantage. I reckon your bull crap meter be biased and broken!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> so men are the only ones who rape, sexually harass and assault? Give me a break! Read the news, female teachers are in it daily for acting inappropriately with male students. Same concept, someone in power taking advantage. I reckon your bull crap meter be biased and broken!


Assuming I said things I did not just make your post look foolish.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Assuming I said things I did not just make your post look foolish.


I didn’t assume anything, it’s in black and white just above, I even bolded it for you. Had a man made that comment it wouldn’t sit very well and be sexist as all get up but it’s ok for a woman to say it? Thanks for the pointers though.

Yours truly,
Fool


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I didn’t assume anything, it’s in black and white just above, I even bolded it for you. Had a man made that comment it wouldn’t sit very well and be sexist as all get up but it’s ok for a woman to say it? Thanks for the pointers though.
> 
> Yours truly,
> Fool


Men who need to point out that women do it too ( we already know that) are just trying to take the heat off their own bad behavior.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Every time I hear or read a man complain that women do it to, my bull crap radar goes off. No sh
> 
> Is there any instance where a victim gets victimized again because they did not report something?


It's because the man is typically trying to justify the behavior rather than just admit it's wrong. The rallying cry, "But she did it too!!" is simply ridiculous.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Recent statistics show that there is more female vs. male domestic abuse than previously thought. While sexual harassment is primarily male on female, there have already been a few cases of female on male, in the news recently. Women are people, too.

Until everybody gets treated the same way, I'm not sure what the long term prospects for improvement really are...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Men who need to point out that women do it too ( we already know that) are just trying to take the heat off their own bad behavior.


Especially since no one here has said that woman never sexually harass or assault men.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There is a difference between domestic assault, sexually harassment, and sexually assault. Trying to divert attention away from the one that may make men look like victims isn't a great way to draw attention to the issue, in my opinion.

The fact that sexual harassment and assault survivors have been coming forward, en masse and believed, is a great thing. Due to their bravery, there have been sexual predators removed from their positions of power and shamed. This isn't the "good ole days" anymore, if you (collective) sexually harass or assault you will be called on it, no matter when it happened. If it's within the statute of limitation hopefully criminal charges will be fined, if not (or in addition to) a civil suit. Nothing hurts a power sexual predator like a big big hit to the wallet and a ruined legacy/reputation. 

The A list celebrity group, "Time's Up" will help the average woman get justice for the transgressions done to her, and that is a truly wonderful thing. Women have rights, and one of them is to not be sexually harassed or assaulted, it's a fairly easy concept to understand.

There is more outrage than I expected, are some here a bit worried?


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you think that men should be able to sexually harass/assault women at will? Please explain why you feel the need to disparage a group of powerful women that are helping other women? Or was it directed at me personally?


Ok works both ways know several women that sexually assaulted me but it was over 50 years ago I'm not blaming my present problems on them.

Same as being with a Guy committing an Armed Robbery. I was 7 but like so many things it didn't make me.

Oh I might add a woman I turned down 25 years ago made my life hell by her lies. All I did was spend time alone with her drinking but she made me much worse.

big rockpile


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Especially since no one here has said that woman never sexually harass or assault men.


But it is more rare. While I believe sexual harassment and sexual by men is uncommon, it does happen. Rarely, by women against men.
Men seem to exert dominance differently than do women. While a woman may test her ranking in the pecking order through flirting, an unspoken, "Do you find me attractive? Can I get you to do things for me? Can I draw your attention and get you to be attentive?" A guy's approach to testing pecking order is often sexual. Since culturally, women generally pick the when and if they have sex. So, winning favor, gaining acceptance, would be obtaining a favorable response to a flirt that also contains a sexual component.
Dominance is expressed in different ways. A group of women that once held attention and power by being beautiful and obtaining jobs in the media, can gain support, dominance and power by rallying others to their new cause, sexual harassment. No one is going to complain about women using their beauty to manipulate people and gain power.
Most people realize that beauty and money gives power and dominance. Everyone knows that Rock stars have women clamoring to be in their hotel rooms. Few people have experienced the power of people waiting on you, showering you with gifts, longing for a sheet of paper with ink scrawled by you. Most of us would be amazed by all this. Even those that have spent decades in the spotlight bath in the joy and power yet never tire of it. It is a measure of dominance that assures the survival of our unique DNA. That goes to our deepest self.
"How do I measure up?" is a question we all ask on some level. I guess for a woman it would be to draw the room's attention just by a well timed entrance. For some guys the measure of power would be the acknowledgement that if I grabbed a female admirer by the crotch, she'd be unilaterally receptive to my advances.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> But it is more rare. While I believe sexual harassment and sexual by men is uncommon, it does happen. Rarely, by women against men.
> Men seem to exert dominance differently than do women. While a woman may test her ranking in the pecking order through flirting, an unspoken, "Do you find me attractive? Can I get you to do things for me? Can I draw your attention and get you to be attentive?" A guy's approach to testing pecking order is often sexual. Since culturally, women generally pick the when and if they have sex. So, winning favor, gaining acceptance, would be obtaining a favorable response to a flirt that also contains a sexual component.
> Dominance is expressed in different ways. A group of women that once held attention and power by being beautiful and obtaining jobs in the media, can gain support, dominance and power by rallying others to their new cause, sexual harassment. No one is going to complain about women using their beauty to manipulate people and gain power.
> Most people realize that beauty and money gives power and dominance. Everyone knows that Rock stars have women clamoring to be in their hotel rooms. Few people have experienced the power of people waiting on you, showering you with gifts, longing for a sheet of paper with ink scrawled by you. Most of us would be amazed by all this. Even those that have spent decades in the spotlight bath in the joy and power yet never tire of it. It is a measure of dominance that assures the survival of our unique DNA. That goes to our deepest self.
> "How do I measure up?" is a question we all ask on some level. I guess for a woman it would be to draw the room's attention just by a well timed entrance. For some guys the measure of power would be the acknowledgement that if I grabbed a female admirer by the crotch, she'd be unilaterally receptive to my advances.


You realize that "flirting" isn't dominance of power in the way that forcing a woman to have some sort of sex in order to keep her job, right? The latter is what we're discussing. The minor power plays between sexes are just that.

ETA: You may think that women being sexual harassed or assaulted on the job is uncommon but that doesn't make it true. And the times they are achangin', what you're calling "a sexual component" can be a serious issue now. It's no longer the "good ole days" and women have rights.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I spent all my formative years in a different environment. What the recent revelations have shown me, personally, is that the attitude toward the mechanisms of a man/woman relationship, should be agreed upon by both parties, and if the man(or woman) has a need to be dominant, it should be understood from the get-go, and kept inside the relationship.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Clem said:


> I spent all my formative years in a different environment. What the recent revelations have shown me, personally, is that the attitude toward the mechanisms of a man/woman relationship, should be agreed upon by both parties, and if the man(or woman) has a need to be dominant, it should be understood from the get-go, and kept inside the relationship.


Absolutely, if it's a personal relationship.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Women have rights, and one of them is to not be sexually harassed or assaulted, it's a fairly easy concept to understand.


The concept is easy to understand, but often what it constitutes is a bit elusive.
"He was verbally abusive." might just be a husband that expressed his displeasure that his bride just spent the rent money on a pair of shoes.
I've angered women by holding the door. I've angered women by not holding the door.
A woman that often hugs work group team members then complains of unwanted touching when a team mate touches her shoulder as leans down to talk to her as she is seated at her desk.
A woman that openly brags about the guy she picked up in a bar last night that was hung like a horse, then files sexual harassment charges against her boss for telling her to get her @$$ back to work.
The only cure is to set a standard at the work place that is above, sometimes far above, casual social interaction. Makes team building and comfort and trust more of a challenge.
Real sexual assault has no excuse. Next day, next week or next decade sexual remorse is not sexual assault, no matter how badly you feelings were hurt or how embarrassed your sober self is. Real sexual assault must be punished. But we cannot do it by taking the word of one person over another.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

haypoint said:


> But it is more rare. While I believe sexual harassment and sexual by men is uncommon, it does happen. Rarely, by women against men.
> Men seem to exert dominance differently than do women. While a woman may test her ranking in the pecking order through flirting, an unspoken, "Do you find me attractive? Can I get you to do things for me? Can I draw your attention and get you to be attentive?" A guy's approach to testing pecking order is often sexual. Since culturally, women generally pick the when and if they have sex. So, winning favor, gaining acceptance, would be obtaining a favorable response to a flirt that also contains a sexual component.
> Dominance is expressed in different ways. A group of women that once held attention and power by being beautiful and obtaining jobs in the media, can gain support, dominance and power by rallying others to their new cause, sexual harassment. No one is going to complain about women using their beauty to manipulate people and gain power.
> Most people realize that beauty and money gives power and dominance. Everyone knows that Rock stars have women clamoring to be in their hotel rooms. Few people have experienced the power of people waiting on you, showering you with gifts, longing for a sheet of paper with ink scrawled by you. Most of us would be amazed by all this. Even those that have spent decades in the spotlight bath in the joy and power yet never tire of it. It is a measure of dominance that assures the survival of our unique DNA. That goes to our deepest self.
> "How do I measure up?" is a question we all ask on some level. I guess for a woman it would be to draw the room's attention just by a well timed entrance. For some guys the measure of power would be the acknowledgement that if I grabbed a female admirer by the crotch, she'd be unilaterally receptive to my advances.


I agree, flirtation by women is often an affectation, applying female dominance. And I don't think they are going to quit anytime soon. On to other things...

The rockstar statement made me think of Elvis...In a time (1950's) when sexuality was not as prominent as today, Elvis often went through two women a day. Even for the less handsome guys who achieved a measure of stardom, Travis Tritt wrote in his autobiography that women stuffing your pants pockets with hotel cards, is heady wine, indeed. Tritt said he finally quit that life after about six months of living it, when he woke up one morning not knowing what city he was in, not knowing what hotel he was in, not knowing where his clothes were at and not recalling what he had done with the naked woman in the bed with him.

My son has played in bands for years. Wanna pick up women? Play in a band. Even a decent local band.

Some things never change...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You realize that "flirting" isn't dominance of power in the way that forcing a woman to have some sort of sex in order to keep her job, right? The latter is what we're discussing. The minor power plays between sexes are just that.
> 
> ETA: You may think that women being sexual harassed or assaulted on the job is uncommon but that doesn't make it true. And the times they are achangin', what you're calling "a sexual component" can be a serious issue now. It's no longer the "good ole days" and women have rights.


You are correct, flirting and being forced to have sex are different. I was discussing dominance and how it manifests itself differently. Flirting to you might be a minor power play but as a foundation to breaking up a marriage or slingshoting into upper management, it becomes far more. A woman that understands the landscape and has sex with a boss she detests could be sexually assaulted or she could by utilizing her assets to manipulate her promotion.

"We talk about how many women were raped last year, not about how many men raped women. We talk about how many girls in a school district were harassed last year, not about how many boys harassed girls"
We keep statistics on the number of people murdered, not the number shooters. Some folks want to talk about all those awful men that cheat on their wives. Most often there are an equal number of women involved. Something about Tango.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> The concept is easy to understand, but often what it constitutes is a bit elusive.
> "He was verbally abusive." might just be a husband that expressed his displeasure that his bride just spent the rent money on a pair of shoes.
> I've angered women by holding the door. I've angered women by not holding the door.
> A woman that often hugs work group team members then complains of unwanted touching when a team mate touches her shoulder as leans down to talk to her as she is seated at her desk.
> ...


This is called **** shaming, "A woman that openly brags about the guy she picked up in a bar last night that was hung like a horse, then files sexual harassment charges against her boss for telling her to get her @$$ back to work." It's no one's business how many men or how often a woman has sex. Sexual harassment by a boss is illegal, and the example you used isn't sexual harassment, in fact none of the examples you used is sexual harassment. Perhaps you should do some reading? 

Oh, but we are taking the word of many women over one man, and it's happening over and over and over.... Women have rights, remember?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> You are correct, flirting and being forced to have sex are different. I was discussing dominance and how it manifests itself differently. Flirting to you might be a minor power play but as a foundation to breaking up a marriage or slingshoting into upper management, it becomes far more. A woman that understands the landscape and has sex with a boss she detests could be sexually assaulted or she could by utilizing her assets to manipulate her promotion.
> 
> "We talk about how many women were raped last year, not about how many men raped women. We talk about how many girls in a school district were harassed last year, not about how many boys harassed girls"
> We keep statistics on the number of people murdered, not the number shooters. Some folks want to talk about all those awful men that cheat on their wives. Most often there are an equal number of women involved. Something about Tango.


You don't understand the nature of victims and rape culture either? SMH It's 2018, not back in the day when all manner of male dominance was accepted. Please educate yourself.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Oh, but we are taking the word of many women over one man, and it's happening over and over and over.... Women have rights, remember?


When a woman sets the tone that all sorts of her sex life are open to discussion by her own example, I'd expect that tone reflected in a more rugged tone in other communications.
THe examples I used were considered sexual harassment and unwanted touching.
Taking the word? So, if I can rally enough people with pitch forks and torches, I can assess a person's guilt? Many people makes a lie the truth?
P:erhaps we are looking at this from divergent viewpoints. I have been wrongly accused of making a sexual advance. I have observed women modify an actual event to turn it into sexual assault.
Life isn't rainbows and unicorns. I've had guys clowning around and poke me in the but with his thumb, lifting me off the ground. That's horseplay, not uncommon in the workplace. But, I think you'd want them fired.
An angry volunteer at an animal shelter used facebook to rally a bunch of folks to believe a lie and the effect was that the animal shelter closed. Just because many adopt a cause isn't always a measure of guilt.
Yes, when 20 women come forward, it is believable. But I don't see how we, as a society, can find justice I an allegation without putting the claim into the time period of the act and the minute actions that led up to it and the benefits reaped from it. If I offered stardom to a woman wiling to watch me walk around my apartment nude, quid pro que, and she accepts that, should she be able to enjoy the stardom, but 30 years later report a crime?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Men who need to point out that women do it too ( we already know that) are just trying to take the heat off their own bad behavior.


I wouldn't paint pictures with quite so wide a brush. I have pointed out the fact that women do it too and I have never practiced any of the bad behavior being discussed. It's simply not a part of who I am in spite of what some here might have you beleive. Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of humor, and will share funny stories of a sexual nature with women who also have a sense of humor, I have kissed many a woman and fondled them as well. But all of them have been quite willing and enthusiastic participants. It's not that difficult to discern who is going to accept advances and who are not. I generally distance myself from people, both male and female who don't have a sense of humor, or are easily offended by a little compliment.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wouldn't paint pictures with quite so wide a brush. I have pointed out the fact that women do it too and I have never practiced any of the bad behavior being discussed. It's simply not a part of who I am in spite of what some here might have you beleive. Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of humor, and will share funny stories of a sexual nature with women who also have a sense of humor, I have kissed many a woman and fondled them as well. But all of them have been quite willing and enthusiastic participants. It's not that difficult to discern who is going to accept advances and who are not. I generally distance myself from people, both male and female who don't have a sense of humor, or are easily offended by a little compliment.


That you think that those stories you share are all funny when they are misogynist just adds backing to my opinion to many.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> When a woman sets the tone that all sorts of her sex life are open to discussion by her own example, I'd expect that tone reflected in a more rugged tone in other communications.
> THe examples I used were considered sexual harassment and unwanted touching.
> Taking the word? So, if I can rally enough people with pitch forks and torches, I can assess a person's guilt? Many people makes a lie the truth?
> P:erhaps we are looking at this from divergent viewpoints. I have been wrongly accused of making a sexual advance. I have observed women modify an actual event to turn it into sexual assault.
> ...


Where were the examples you used considered sexual harassment? Do you have a link? I do educate myself and I'll read it.

The middle of the post is just more anecdotal diversion and justification in my opinion, irrelevant to the basic discussion, and I won't rationalize it with a response.

There are few crimes after 20, 30, 40 years, murder is one but there are a others. Public opinion decides after the statute of limitations, just ask Cosby, Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Dustin Hoffman, Bret Ratner, and many, many more. Plus there are the rash of politicians resigning because of sexual harassment.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

So much for our discussion....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> That you think that those stories you share are all funny when they are misogynist just adds backing to my opinion to many.


Not to mention the stomach churning description of consensual groping is completely irrelevant to sexual harassment in the workplace, just another diversion and/or justification.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> That you think that those stories you share are all funny when they are misogynist just adds backing to my opinion to many.


When the audience laughs.... I figure the jokes are funny. When I hug a woman and she sticks her tongue down my throat I figure she's willing. Your mileage may vary.​


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Jolly said:


> So much for our discussion....


Sorry about that. Didn't mean to intrude, just thought I would toss in my two cents, I now return you to your discussion.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Sorry about that. Didn't mean to intrude, just thought I would toss in my two cents, I now return you to your discussion.


No, not what I was commenting on...This thread now reminds me of the old quote about they came at us in in the same old way and we killed them in the same old way. It's a worn path.

Most of these points have been laid out _ad infinitum, ad nauseum_.

The offended tend to stay offended, and have little use for opposing views. Especially those of the opposite sex. It just is what it is.

Carry on....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There are millions of sexually assaulted and harassed women, and they are "coming at you" in an entirely new way that works. It's a good thing.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I started a thread a while back called Flirting or harassment (or something to that effect). If we have a continuum with innocent flirting on the left, rape on the right, and sexual harassment and sexual assault somewhere in between, where's the line that defines criminality?

*Sexual harassment* is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. wikipedia​
*Sexual assault* is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will. wikipedia​
*"Rape* is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent." wikipedia​All of these, including flirting, have to do with consent. It would be much more productive for society to have a realistic discussion about consent than have the "Me To" hash tag. There are so many ambiguous terms used such as unwelcome, inappropriate, sexually touches, without consent, etc. Right now it seems to be like pornography - I know it when I see it. These terms need to be clearly defined so we don't keep getting into "he said - she said" type of situations.

Remember the college girl that carried around a mattress because she claimed to be raped, even though the guy was found innocent? Perfect example of "he said - she said".


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> I started a thread a while back called Flirting or harassment (or something to that effect). If we have a continuum with innocent flirting on the left, rape on the right, and sexual harassment and sexual assault somewhere in between, where's the line that defines criminality?
> 
> *Sexual harassment* is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. wikipedia​
> *Sexual assault* is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will. wikipedia​
> *"Rape* is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent." wikipedia​All of these, including flirting, have to do with consent. It would be much more productive for society to have a realistic discussion about consent than have the "Me To" hash tag. There are so many ambiguous terms used such as unwelcome, inappropriate, sexually touches, without consent, etc. Right now it seems to be like pornography - I know it when I see it. But these terms need to be clearly defined so we don't keep getting into "he said - she said" type of situations.


The criminality is where any of those three things happen in the workplace, of course it will depend on many factors.

The #MeToo was to bring forward the issue, and became a rallying cry, but you're correct there needs to be realistic discussion about consent. Just from the cross cut of society in this forum there are some that don't seem to understand the meaning of consent.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Especially since no one here has said that woman never sexually harass or assault men.


 No but you don’t seem very interested in it. 
Isn’t seduction sexual harassment?
I don’t see any compassion for the powerful men that were seduced by sex into putting a inferior actress into a roll.
If those actresses caused the movies to fail and the men to lose their positions shouldn’t the men be able to sue the harassers for the economic pain they cause?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> No but you don’t seem very interested in it.
> Isn’t seduction sexual harassment?
> I don’t see any compassion for the powerful men that were seduced by sex into putting a inferior actress into a roll.
> If those actresses caused the movies to fail and the men to lose their positions shouldn’t the men be able to sue the harassers for the economic pain they cause?


Consensual sex is perfect, he wants it and she wants it. Period.

I'm not rationalizing the rest of your post by responding to it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wr said:


> Workplace issues are generally handled by HR rather than courts, although I have heard of a couple cases where women successfully sued their employers from not protecting them from sexual misconduct.


Makes me wonder why hr rather than a court? I'm fairly certain if a man were to make advances toward me there would be assault charges filed, at the minimum, against me.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> The criminality is where any of those three things happen in the workplace, of course it will depend on many factors.
> 
> The #MeToo was to bring forward the issue, and became a rallying cry, but you're correct there needs to be realistic discussion about consent. Just from the cross cut of society in this forum there, are some that don't seem to understand the meaning of consent.


Let me give you what I consider a completely innocent example.

It's fairly common for a male and a female to be working together on a project. So they are working at a computer and the woman is sitting at the computer and the guy in an adjacent chair. Their legs touch, is that sexual assault? How about if their arms touch? Or how about if he stands behind her chair, leans over to see the screen, and puts his hand on her shoulder?

One woman may see that as assault, while most wouldn't. Are legs touching or arms touching or placing your hand on someone's shoulder considered sexual touching? Does it come down to a nuanced "he pushed his leg up against mine"?

One thing I would recommend is women need to get better at defining their boundaries. I have known several woman that worked in a primarily male environment who made it clear that any type of harassment would not be tolerated. They did it in an unemotional, straight forward manner that was respected by the guys.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> Let me give you what I consider a completely innocent example.
> 
> It's fairly common for a male and a female to be working together on a project. So they are working at a computer and the woman is sitting at the computer and the guy in an adjacent chair. Their legs touch, is that sexual assault? How about if their arms touch? Or how about if he stands behind her chair, leans over to see the screen, and puts his hand on her shoulder?
> 
> ...


Not only do they need to get better at defining their boundaries, but defending those boundaries as well. Since I am no longer capable of coming out on the winning end of a scuffle I am rarely without a handgun at arms reach. If a lady happens to be squeamish about blood spatter, I understand pepper spray can be somewhat effective too. There really is no need for anyone to put up with this type of unwanted nonsense.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

In an area where reasonable people even have a problem defining consent, we now wish to ruin careers and fire people based on thirty year-old, unproven allegations. Prediction? The #metoo stuff is ephemeral. 

What may prevail eventually, is common sense. Sexual harassment will need to be reported in a timely manner, it will have to be judged on a predetermined set of rules and anyone accused will have access to due process. 

Does that cure everything? Of course not. But maybe it can be understood by most.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Speaking of weaponized sexual harassment...

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/948192837874659330

And...Maybe it's just because I'm a guy, but does unbuttoning your blouse make you a better sexual harassment attorney?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Jolly said:


> Speaking of weaponized sexual harassment...
> 
> https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/948192837874659330
> 
> And...Maybe it's just because I'm a guy, but does unbuttoning your blouse make you a better sexual harassment attorney?


I dunno..... But neither one of those "ladies" have anything to worry about from this corner of the world! I've woke up with some ugly women over the years, but I ain't never been that drunk!


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I dunno..... But neither one of those "ladies" have anything to worry about from this corner of the world! I've woke up with some ugly women over the years, but I ain't never been that drunk!


It's this sort of thinking, and talking, that make all men look like butt holes. You are NOT a credit to your gender, nor do you speak for much of anybody.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Clem said:


> It's this sort of thinking, and talking, that make all men look like butt holes. You are NOT a credit to your gender, nor do you speak for much of anybody.


So having good taste is now a bad thing? I know, it's all about personal preference and I'm quite sure there is some guy out there just chomping at the bit waiting for his chance.... I'm just saying it ain't me! Help yourself. Me? I like a woman with a sense of humor, a kind heart and good spirit about them, now maybe that photo caught them both on an off day but I see none of those qualities in either of those "ladies".


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Nah, but you don't have good taste. You just think you do. If you had good taste, you could refrain from posting such insulting posts.
First, and foremost, if you don't understand how wrong your post is, you never will, so no reason for anybody to explain it to you. Second, if you're just trolling, you're gonna argue with logic, regardless.

For the record, I don't think you're trolling.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> Speaking of weaponized sexual harassment...
> 
> https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/948192837874659330
> 
> And...Maybe it's just because I'm a guy, but does unbuttoning your blouse make you a better sexual harassment attorney?


This post is classic **** shaming, and is indication of misogyny in my opinion.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Clem said:


> Nah, but you don't have good taste. You just think you do. If you had good taste, you could refrain from posting such insulting posts.
> First, and foremost, if you don't understand how wrong your post is, you never will, so no reason for anybody to explain it to you. Second, if you're just trolling, you're gonna argue with logic, regardless.
> 
> For the record, I don't think you're trolling.


I personally think there are a couple that are purposely trying to get the thread deleted or moved.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Clem said:


> Nah, but you don't have good taste. You just think you do. If you had good taste, you could refrain from posting such insulting posts.
> First, and foremost, if you don't understand how wrong your post is, you never will, so no reason for anybody to explain it to you. Second, if you're just trolling, you're gonna argue with logic, regardless.
> 
> For the record, I don't think you're trolling.


Nope, not trolling, just posting my thoughts and opinions.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Let me give you what I consider a completely innocent example.
> 
> It's fairly common for a male and a female to be working together on a project. So they are working at a computer and the woman is sitting at the computer and the guy in an adjacent chair. Their legs touch, is that sexual assault? How about if their arms touch? Or how about if he stands behind her chair, leans over to see the screen, and puts his hand on her shoulder?
> 
> ...


On just what you've typed none of that is sexual harassment/assault in my opinion. Sexual assault/harassment has an element of intent. Say you (not you personally) touched my shoulder while we were working together, and innocent touch, I'd make it known non verbally that I don't want you to touch me, ie. I'd move or lean away or make a facial gesture that indicated annoyance. If you are a decent human being it would end right there. If you touched me again, we'd have a verbal discussion about personal space, and if you were a semi intelligent decent human being it would end there. If the touching happened a third time, you would be in HR so fast your head would spin. That's me, I can't speak for anyone else.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It's so nice to be married to a fantastic lady and retired so do not have to deal with any of nonsense any more.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Consensual sex is perfect, he wants it and she wants it. Period.
> 
> I'm not rationalizing the rest of your post by responding to it.


 But if you asked the men in those old cases they would say it was consensual. 
The women used their power of sex to seduce them into giving them positions. 
Offer, counter offer, acceptance. 
40 years of using the gains of the negotiations would also seem to imply acceptance. 
Your refusal to discuss the rest of my post is simply a matter of you not accepting situation might go both ways.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> But if you asked the men in those old cases they would say it was consensual.
> The women used their power of sex to seduce them into giving them positions.
> Offer, counter offer, acceptance.
> 40 years of using the gains of the negotiations would also seem to imply acceptance.
> Your refusal to discuss the rest of my post is simply a matter of you not accepting situation might go both ways.


Yep, kinda like letting you do it implies consent. Not letting you do it on the other hand would imply non consent.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, kinda like letting you do it implies consent. Not letting you do it on the other hand would imply non consent.


So not fighting back when someone rapes you is consent it your world?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> So not fighting back when someone rapes you is consent it your world?


Couldn't rightly say, never been raped. I would think some resistance might be in order if it was actually a case of forcible rape though. (Else it's not forced) That pepper spray in the face? Yes, I can see that as implying non consent, sticking a tongue down his throat with legs wrapped tightly around him... Not so much.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Couldn't rightly say, never been raped. I would think some resistance might be in order if it was actually a case of forcible rape though. (Else it's not forced) That pepper spray in the face? Yes, I can see that as implying non consent, sticking a tongue down his throat with legs wrapped tightly around him... Not so much.


Yes, you responded just as your misogynist past posts lead me to believe you would. I see that discussion on this subject is pointless with you. I said the word rape, I did not say consensual. Your joking about this subject is disgusting.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Let us examine the word misogyny...

mi·sog·y·ny
məˈsäjənē/
_noun - _dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. ex."she felt she was struggling against thinly disguised misogyny 

Hopefully, this picture will show up, if not check out the link in my previous post:









Is it misogynistic to comment on an attorney with her blouse half-way unbuttoned as being seriously unprofessional? If so, then anything detrimental said about any woman is now misogynistic, if that comment is made by a man.

I think that strains the credibility of anyone trying to make an argument for women's rights or sexual harassment. Red Queen Rules do not allow anybody to play a fair game or have an even-handed discussion, IMO.

It's kind of like the on-going discussion about consent. Other than a he said/she said morass, consent in the manner we are discussing almost has to be adjudicated. otherwise, the variables are so frangible as to be merely opinion and that doesn't solve anything. Maybe we need to decide _exactly_ what constitutes consent. Is it verbal? Written? It certainly can't be anything that can be misunderstood by the other person, or by a disinterested third party.

Perhaps we are trying to emulate Sweden, where some of the recent sexual laws have spurred married couples to keep consent forms in their nightstands...

Again, IMNSHO, this type of silliness actually harms the sexual harassment movement more than it helps it.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

For the severely misinformed: The attorney is the one on the left.

Geeze.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Clem said:


> For the severely misinformed: The attorney is the one on the left.
> 
> Geeze.


They don't bother to get the facts before posting.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

painterswife said:


> They don't bother to get the facts before posting.


Just gets in the way.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Clem said:


> For the severely misinformed: The attorney is the one on the left.
> 
> Geeze.


And they both look quite, angry, bitter and generally unpleasant. Wouldn't want to be around either one.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Yes, you responded just as your misogynist past posts lead me to believe you would. I see that discussion on this subject is pointless with you. I said the word rape, I did not say consensual. Your joking about this subject is disgusting.


Who's joking? Pointing out facts is not joking.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Clem said:


> For the severely misinformed: The attorney is the one on the left.
> 
> Geeze.


Then I stand corrected. I thought that was Gloria with Lisa Bloom.

Therefore, then should the person accusing somebody else of sexual harassment show up in court with her blouse half-unbuttoned?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Jolly said:


> Then I stand corrected. I thought that was Gloria with Lisa Bloom.
> 
> Therefore, then should the person accusing somebody else of sexual harassment show up in court with her blouse half-unbuttoned?


What does what someone wears have to do with someone else doing something they should not? What if their fetish is someone in a full three piece suit? Does it still matter what they are wearing?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

painterswife said:


> What does what someone wears have to do with someone else doing something they should not? What if their fetish is someone in a full three piece suit? Does it still matter what they are wearing?


Does it?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> *The criminality is where any of those three things happen in the workplace*, of course it will depend on many factors.
> 
> The #MeToo was to bring forward the issue, and became a rallying cry, but you're correct there needs to be realistic discussion about consent. Just from the cross cut of society in this forum there, are some that don't seem to understand the meaning of consent.


it doesn’t matter where it happens it’s still a crime! These women should have been smarter and not worried about a career instead of reporting it when it happened. Not saying what the men or women did was excuseable but come on really!?!? Report it when it happens! Are you going to wait 15 years to report a home invasion where someone held a gun to your head?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Jolly said:


> Does it?


Obviously a poor innocent woman falsely accused.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Obviously a poor innocent woman falsely accused.


Probably won’t even get probation and be free again!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> What does what someone wears have to do with someone else doing something they should not? What if their fetish is someone in a full three piece suit? Does it still matter what they are wearing?


A woman can wear anything she wants as long as it breaks no decency laws, so can a man. Case in point, an over morbidly obese man that tries to use a tucked in polo shirt to contain a belly that hangs down to his genitals.

ETA: I have a picture, pm me if you have a strong stomach.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Not my lawyer on my day in court. Thus far appropriate apparel, manners, and grooming have kept me on the proper side of those windows with heavy steel bars, as well as the good side of civil suits. I suppose exemplary behavior in general, being mostly innocent on my part has helped some too. Taking home baked cakes around to all the banks and legal offices hasn't hurt a thing either. Odd how being a model citizen helps a feller sometimes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> In an area where reasonable people even have a problem defining consent, we now wish to ruin careers and fire people based on thirty year-old, unproven allegations. Prediction? The #metoo stuff is ephemeral.
> 
> What may prevail eventually, is common sense. Sexual harassment will need to be reported in a timely manner, it will have to be judged on a predetermined set of rules and anyone accused will have access to due process.
> 
> Does that cure everything? Of course not. But maybe it can be understood by most.


Nope, #metoo, Time's Up, and the like aren't going anywhere soon. "On Monday, a powerful group of Hollywood women announced a new initiative known as Time’s Up. The movement is aimed at fighting sexual harassment, abuse, and assault, not just in the movie business, but in industries like farming, hospitality, and home health care, where standing up to predation is structurally and financially almost impossible. A big part of that mission will turn on supporting accusers in the courts. That initiative will be shouldered by Time’s Up’s new legal defense fund, administered by the National Women’s Law Center, which has already raised more than $14 million on a GoFundMe page to subsidize lawsuits supporting victims of sexual harassment, assault, or abuse."

From this very interesting and informative article: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ase_for_hollywood_s_fight_against_sexual.html


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not my lawyer on my day in court. Thus far appropriate apparel, manners, and grooming have kept me on the proper side of those windows with heavy steel bars, as well as the good side of civil suits. I suppose exemplary behavior in general, being mostly innocent on my part has helped some too. Taking home baked cakes around to all the banks and legal offices hasn't hurt a thing either. Odd how being a model citizen helps a feller sometimes.


Inappropriate attire? Not for anybody not already convicted of the crime or a defendant in a civil case. You show up looking like a thug or a hooker, and the jury will perceive you as a thug or a hooker.

Not to mention a judge who may take it as disrespecting his courtroom.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

1 in 3.

We're going to have to build bigger jails....

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015...lly-harassed-work-cosmopolitan_n_6713814.html


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

From the article in pixies post above... "Kohler wrote that about 10 years ago, when she worked in marketing in Hollywood, Ratner had “preyed on me as a drunk girl” and “forced himself upon me.” She wrote that Ratner took her back to the home of producer Robert Evans and sexually assaulted her after she repeatedly said “no.” Kohler explicitly used the word “rape” to describe the incident."

I have to wonder if Kohler specifically used the word rape in her report to the police ten years ago? I could find no mention of it in the article?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> 1 in 3.
> 
> We're going to have to build bigger jails....
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015...lly-harassed-work-cosmopolitan_n_6713814.html


Fines and public shaming/job loss will work for many of the offenses, no need for additional jails.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Fines and public shaming/job loss will work for many of the offenses, no need for additional jails.


I guess that should go for DWI convictions, manslaughter, murder, and so forth and so on. Where do you draw the line?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

California has recently changed the law, ending a Statute of Limitations on rape. Much of the change was due to Bill Cosby's case, and a rape accusation from 1975.

Ms. Kohler accused Ratner of rape, even though she never filed a police report or even told her closest friends.

The alleged rape took place 12 years ago.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I guess that should go for DWI convictions, manslaughter, murder, and so forth and so on. Where do you draw the line?


Why are you classifying DWI (which FYI can be just a fine) with capital offense such as murder, or manslaughter for that matter?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> California has recently changed the law, ending a Statute of Limitations on rape. Much of the change was due to Bill Cosby's case, and a rape accusation from 1975.
> 
> Ms. Kohler accused Ratner of rape, even though she never filed a police report or even told her closest friends.
> 
> The alleged rape took place 12 years ago.


I'm confused, has the state of California filed rape charges against Brett Ratner? I can't find any indication of it, only that Brett Ratner has filed a defamation civil suit against Kohler, and that could get very interesting, very quickly.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why are you classifying DWI (which FYI can be just a fine) with capital offense such as murder, or manslaughter for that matter?


It’s an example. Nothing more nothing less. Why do you take EVERYTHING, out of context?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> It’s an example. Nothing more nothing less. Why do you take EVERYTHING, out of context?


It's what people often do if they think it may further their agenda. Don't like the message? Shoot the messenger!


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

California has not filed rape charges against Ratner. I suspect after this time, there is not enough evidence to do so, which does make the defamation suit quite interesting. It's one thing to accuse somebody of sexual harassment. It's a whole nuther ball of wax to accuse somebody of a capital crime.

If Ratner wins his case, what does that do for the sexual harassment movement?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> California has not filed rape charges against Ratner. I suspect after this time, there is not enough evidence to do so, which does make the defamation suit quite interesting. It's one thing to accuse somebody of sexual harassment. It's a whole nuther ball of wax to accuse somebody of a capital crime.
> 
> If Ratner wins his case, what does that do for the sexual harassment movement?


No clue, I prefer to wait to see what evidence is provided, and can other bad acts be brought in? How many other women can testify to rape, sexual assault or harassment? From what I've read the list of Mr. Ratner's victims is extensive, and this could open up the whole enchilada... and Time's Up is going to fund it. Very interesting.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> So not fighting back when someone rapes you is consent it your world?


 Lol you changed his words to get something you could argue against.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

The accusers motion to dismiss:

https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/ratner-v-kohler-defs-brief-iso-mtd-as-filed-wm.pdf

From Law.com:

_defamation

n. the act of making untrue statements about another which damages his/her reputation. If the defamatory statement is printed or broadcast over the media it is libel and, if only oral, it is slander. Public figures, including officeholders and candidates, have to show that the defamation was made with malicious intent and was not just fair comment. Damages for slander may be limited to actual (special) damages unless there is malice. Some statements such as an accusation of having committed a crime, having a feared disease or being unable to perform one's occupation are called libel per se or slander per se and can more easily lead to large money awards in court and even punitive damage recovery by the person harmed. Most states provide for a demand for a printed retraction of defamation and only allow a lawsuit if there is no such admission of error.
_
As I said, sexual harassment is one thing. An accusation of rape is something else.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I find it interesting that while some here prattle on about the minor power a man at a single company has over women they don’t seem to want to admit the enormous power of sex a beautiful woman takes everywhere. 
Nor do the want to admit the huge power women now carry in the ability to accuse. 
It certainly seems like a unbalanced situation but not in favor of of the men.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I find it interesting that while some here prattle on about the minor power a man at a single company has over women they don’t seem to want to admit the enormous power of sex a beautiful woman takes everywhere.
> Nor do the want to admit the huge power women now carry in the ability to accuse.
> It certainly seems like a unbalanced situation but not in favor of of the men.


Equality between the sexes will never be achieved, nor has it ever been the goal. Why would the obviously superior sex want to handover their power? Nope, the goal is to increase their grip over the men, always has been right from the start.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Equality between the sexes will never be achieved, nor has it ever been the goal. Why would the obviousl superior sex want to handover their power? Nope, the goal is to increase their grip over the men, always has been right from the start.


For some, not all.

Maybe it's just geographical, but I find the women down here seem much more empowered than their Northern cousins.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

True, not all women understand their power, but havin lived in the northwest, southwest, in the north central (south bend Indiana), now Kentucky, in general women control the vast majority of the power. As much as I might like to think otherwise my Yvonne runs this outfit, I'm just along for the ride. Well, and to fix stuff when it breaks or right checks to those who can fix stuff when I can't! LOL


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Women have been using sex to entice men for years.


Yvonne's hubby said:


> True, not all women understand their power, but havin lived in the northwest, southwest, in the north central (south bend Indiana), now Kentucky, in general women control the vast majority of the power. As much as I might like to think otherwise my Yvonne runs this outfit, I'm just along for the ride. Well, and to fix stuff when it breaks or right checks to those who can fix stuff when I can't! LOL



Why don't Yvonne write checks ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> Women have been using sex to entice men for years.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't Yvonne write checks ?


Oh, she does, just mostly for other stuff she wants. She also sets money aside to cover some of our major expenses, property tax bills, insurance bills, things of that nature. Like I've always said, she is a wonderful lady, but I also know who makes most of the decisions and it ain't me! LOL


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> For some, not all.
> 
> Maybe it's just geographical, but I find the women down here seem much more empowered than their Northern cousins.


Sounds like your women are devious and not trustworthy, is that what you wanted to say about your wives, mothers, daughters, cousins, aunts, and grandmothers? I'm glad I'm from the north...


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm glad I'm from the West, you guys sound hideous


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Turn the snark off. This is not the place for it.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Jolly said:


> Turn the snark off. This is not the place for it.


 Dude, you ever read your posts before you hit "post reply" ?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

oneraddad said:


> Dude, you ever read your posts before you hit "post reply" ?


You ever thought I may not be talking to you?

Look at the time stamps.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Jolly said:


> You ever thought I may not be talking to you?
> 
> Look at the time stamps.


I'm not concerned who you're talking to. I'm just making light that you talk as much snark as anyone


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> You ever thought I may not be talking to you?
> 
> Look at the time stamps.


If you're referring to me, I wasn't being snarky, it's my opinion on what you said, I even asked you if you actually meant to call your women devious and untrustworthy. 

Or if you truly think it's snark, report the post.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

oneraddad said:


> I'm not concerned who you're talking to. I'm just making light that you talk as much snark as anyone


Sorry if I have offended. Place me on "ignore" if you wish.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Men who need to point out that women do it too ( we already know that) are just trying to take the heat off their own bad behavior.


Now there's a leap.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You realize that "flirting" isn't dominance of power in the way that forcing a woman to have some sort of sex in order to keep her job, right? The latter is what we're discussing. The minor power plays between sexes are just that.
> 
> ETA: You may think that women being sexual harassed or assaulted on the job is uncommon but that doesn't make it true. And the times they are achangin', what you're calling "a sexual component" can be a serious issue now. It's no longer the "good ole days" and women have rights.


Aye but there's the rub. If you flirt with someone and it makes them uncomfortable you could very easily face a sexual harrassment charge for making a "hostile work environment".


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Jolly said:


> I agree, flirtation by women is often an affectation, applying female dominance. And I don't think they are going to quit anytime soon. On to other things...
> 
> The rockstar statement made me think of Elvis...In a time (1950's) when sexuality was not as prominent as today, Elvis often went through two women a day. Even for the less handsome guys who achieved a measure of stardom, Travis Tritt wrote in his autobiography that women stuffing your pants pockets with hotel cards, is heady wine, indeed. Tritt said he finally quit that life after about six months of living it, when he woke up one morning not knowing what city he was in, not knowing what hotel he was in, not knowing where his clothes were at and not recalling what he had done with the naked woman in the bed with him.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of something I heard long ago. Men use power to get sex, women use sex to get power.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I should have skipped everything up until #109 and went from there.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> This is called **** shaming, "A woman that openly brags about the guy she picked up in a bar last night that was hung like a horse, then files sexual harassment charges against her boss for telling her to get her @$$ back to work." It's no one's business how many men or how often a woman has sex. Sexual harassment by a boss is illegal, and the example you used isn't sexual harassment, in fact none of the examples you used is sexual harassment. Perhaps you should do some reading?
> 
> Oh, but we are taking the word of many women over one man, and it's happening over and over and over.... Women have rights, remember?


According to the law it could very well be. The boss referring to a intimate part of her anatomy could be seen as creating a hostile work environment for her which is one of the standards which has to be met to face a lawsuit. 

The problem in a lot of non-headline cases it comes down to he said-she said because there are no witnesses. Did the boss tell the woman she either went to dinner with him or lose her job? Or did he offer to take her out as a reward for a job well done? In the real world you don't find many bosses who slap a woman on the rump and say "Looking good there, sweety" in front of the entire staff.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Here we go again....


Prophet...


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

BTW, have we changed any minds with our discussion? It seems most of our opinions have remained static.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> BTW, have we changed any minds with our discussion? It seems most of our opinions have remained static.


I wasn't trying to change minds, I was very happy to announce that Time's Up was formed by A list celebrities to help the average woman with sexual harassment and assault.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Sounds like your women are devious and not trustworthy, is that what you wanted to say about your wives, mothers, daughters, cousins, aunts, and grandmothers? I'm glad I'm from the north...


 Because they don’t play the victim ?
They know their power , use it and are not shy about it. 
There’s nothing devious about knowing your own powers and using them.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Because they don’t play the victim ?
> They know their power , use it and are not shy about it.
> There’s nothing devious about knowing your own powers and using them.


There's an old saying about Southern women...

A Southern woman can tell you to go to Hell and make you think you'd enjoy the trip.

I think that's true, but ratchet it up a couple of notches for the cajun gals...Absolutely unlike anything else I've ever run into...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> There's an old saying about Southern women...
> 
> A Southern woman can tell you to go to Hell and make you think you'd enjoy the trip.
> 
> I think that's true, but ratchet it up a couple of notches for the cajun gals...Absolutely unlike anything else I've ever run into...


I guess I just prefer to be above board and honest about what I want and expect from other people. Maybe it's a New York thing?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Sounds like your women are devious and not trustworthy, is that what you wanted to say about your wives, mothers, daughters, cousins, aunts, and grandmothers? *I'm glad I'm from the north...*


Me too! Less chance of crossing paths.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Me too! Less chance of crossing paths.


Why must you personally attack? Do you know the rules of this forum? If not, please message admin.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why must you personally attack? Do you know the rules of this forum? If not, please message admin.


God Lord! It wasn’t a personal attack, I didn’t call you any names, quit being sensitive to every last thing.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> I guess I just prefer to be above board and honest about what I want and expect from other people. Maybe it's a New York thing?


 Lol you just don’t get it, there is nothing more honest than those women you are so snidely belittling.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol you just don’t get it, there is nothing more honest than those women you are so snidely belittling.


Some ladies know how to get what they want without being nasty, devious, or untrustworthy. I like those kind.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol you just don’t get it, there is nothing more honest than those women you are so snidely belittling.


Read my posts again, I never belittled women. I asked if the other poster meant the nasty things he said about the women of his culture, and stated what I prefer. Who is it that "just don't get it"?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Jolly said:


> For some, not all.
> 
> Maybe it's just geographical, but I find the women down here seem much more empowered than their Northern cousins.


I fail to see how anybody could find anything denigrating to women in that statement.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Jolly said:


> I fail to see how anybody could find anything denigrating to women in that statement.


There isn't, those denigrating comments were added by someone else in post #108 back on page 6.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> I guess I just prefer to be above board and honest about what I want and expect from other people. Maybe it's a New York thing?





Irish Pixie said:


> Read my posts again, I never belittled women. I asked if the other poster meant the nasty things he said about the women of his culture, and stated what I prefer. Who is it that "just don't get it"?


 Implying they aren’t honest and aboveboard isn’t belittling ?
Perhaps it’s just outright insulting. I doubt you would say that to their faces twice.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Implying they aren’t honest and aboveboard isn’t belittling ?
> Perhaps it’s just outright insulting. I doubt you would say that to their faces twice.


Ya never know what some folks might do.... But if yer selling tickets I'd give ten bucks to watch!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Really that simple.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> Implying they aren’t honest and aboveboard isn’t belittling ?
> Perhaps it’s just outright insulting. I doubt you would say that to their faces twice.


You're inferring that I said that southern women (as Jolly described them) aren't honest and above board, when what I said is that I (as in me personally) prefer to be honest and above board. That's all on you, and has nothing to do with me. Do you understand?

ETA: I didn't say it the first time...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Really that simple.


As usual something as simple as "yes" (ie. consent) is pushed to ridiculous... Sigh.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> As usual something as simple as "yes" (ie. consent) is pushed to ridiculous... Sigh.


Rationalization, from either side, are powerful emotions. It was meant to be informative as well as humorous. Sorry you missed it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Rationalization, from either side, are powerful emotions. It was meant to be informative as well as humorous. Sorry you missed it.


I missed nothing and I'm rationalizing nothing, the first video was informative as well as cute, the second was stupid. I'm starting to find deliberate stupidity annoying at best.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I missed nothing and I'm rationalizing nothing, the first video was informative as well as cute, the second was stupid. I'm starting to find deliberate stupidity annoying at best.


It's OK to be mad, I know you aren't asking my permission and I'll not offer it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Just to be fair I don’t think it’s justSouthern girls country girls in general or pretty much that way


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I missed nothing and *I'm rationalizing nothing*, the first video was informative as well as cute, the second was stupid. I'm starting to find deliberate stupidity annoying at best.


I know that’s right


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Really that simple.


Beautifully done! Hits everything so perfectly! These two vids should be required veiwing in every junior high and high school class in the nation!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> You're inferring that I said that southern women (as Jolly described them) aren't honest and above board, when what I said is that I (as in me personally) prefer to be honest and above board. That's all on you, and has nothing to do with me. Do you understand?
> 
> ETA: I didn't say it the first time...


Setting out That you prefer to be Honest and aboveboard insinuates that the people you are referring to are not.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

An interesting opinion piece from the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/opinion/golden-globes-metoo.html


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