# Home Invasion defense



## Snuffy Smith (Dec 9, 2002)

I would like to hear everyones thoughts on the best weapon, or home defense to have on hand if 3 or 4 intruders were trying to break in while you were at home. Castle law is in effect.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

six or more Large dogs backed up with a couple pump shotguns and #2 shot


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Greetings all,
#4 Buckshot would be much more effective, Than #2 shot. The large dogs are a good idea, but tough for most folks to do. If you have the space one or two, is possible. But how do you get them bonded to you and get them to partrol? There are better breeds, than others, Akitas come to mind.
I belive that early warning and a safe room would be a better plan. but the folks in Florida would have had a tough time getting 16 kids into one, even with several minutes warning.
Don't forget to preposition extra ammmo though, eight shots in an extended magazine sounds like plenty of fire power until your in a problem.
Cheers,
Dutch


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

In that situation, I'd want a carbine (preferably high capacity semi-auto) backed up with a good handgun. My idea of the perfect weapon for this scenario is the M1A SOCOM loaded with 110 grain Hornady TAP FPD ammo. My preferred handgun would be either some form or .45ACP autoloader or a .45ACP or .357 mag. revolver.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

This is another one of those "What If's"
I agree that # 4 is better (#4 and # 5 is what I have stocked and loaded.)
An early detection system is golden, be it barking dog, motion detector flood lights, even fishing line with a few tin cans attached, etc.
What you are describing is a Bad situation, and unless you have a shotgun sitting next to you as the bad guys break in, you are going to have a drastic change in your reality.


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Murray in ME said:


> In that situation, I'd want a carbine (preferably high capacity semi-auto) backed up with a good handgun. My idea of the perfect weapon for this scenario is the M1A SOCOM loaded with 110 grain Hornady TAP FPD ammo. My preferred handgun would be either some form or .45ACP autoloader or a .45ACP or .357 mag. revolver.


I had the same philosophy until a friend of mine showed me an article regarding the penetration of a round on an internal wall. Even lead rounds will go through drywall or a hollow core door which puts the occupants (i.e. children) at risk of being hit by a stray round. This may not be a consideration for those who live alone.

Buckshot may be a better option:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Those who prefer handguns can also use special loads with buckshot instead of a solid projectile. I have loads like these for my 357. The brain isn't totally engaged yet this morning so I wasn't able to find the link to the product. Perhaps someone else can chime in.


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## kbshorts (Dec 6, 2005)

I have to agree with the 12 ga and #4 buckshot. I keep mine handy for all varmits, deer in the garden, foxes in the chickens or humans with poor judgement. Back-up is .357.

Keith


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## Sam_Luna (Nov 16, 2008)

A good Remington 870 with #4 buck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_870

Sam


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## Gary in AL (Jul 8, 2002)

Wall penetration from a solid bullet bothered me until I found some "exploders". They look like a normal hollow point round (mine is .357) with an explosive charge in the hollow of the point. They explode when they hit any solid surface ie. sheetrock wall. I've been meaning to try to make some of my own using primers turned around backwards. Probably will take some tweaking.
Gary


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

12 g. pump, 18" barrel, magnum turkey rounds with #5 shot.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Sam_Luna said:


> A good Remington 870 with #4 buck
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_870
> 
> Sam


I agree

Here's mine (I still need a good Surefire flashlight for it:


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Since I live in a rural area with no kids in the house, over penetration is not a problem. I would have to just patch the holes in the walls afterwards!

Well the bullets/ projectiles that disintergrate upon impact of a hard surface, are known as "Frangible" rounds...

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/500-rds-9-mm-85-gr-frangible-ammo.aspx?a=558453

They do make self-defense rounds in pistol calibers with multiple projectiles.. Not snake shot, but rather 3-4 projectiles.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/...-mm-luger-mini-glock-50-gr-8-rds.aspx?a=55751

I wander around the house with a weapon most of the time.

Agreement here for the Remington 870 in 12 gauge #4 Buckshot with a 20" slug barrel and rifle sights. A 2 3/4" round of #4 Buckshot, has 27 projectiles in each round...

Or a Winchester model 1894 level action carbine, chambered in .357 magnum. Some folks say it looks like a BB Gun, until they fire it... 10 rounds of .357 magnum 158 grain HP rounds, with a greater range than my revolver..

If they are breaking down the doors, or are outside - they something along the lines of a bayonet tipped rifle.

Nothing like a miffed Marine, armed with a bayonet tipped loaded rifle!!!!!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm a big believer in dogs. I got a smallish dog who barks and a biggish dog who bites. Occasionally a neighbor will be passing along the road and see my big dog going nuts at the fence and ask, "Does she bite?" I've seen people before always give the opposite answer, "Oh no, she's gentle" or something to that effect. I always give what I feel the only appropriate response is when asked if your dog bites: "Oh heck yeah, Mister! She'll tear your arm off! Run! Run for your car! For the love of God, RUN!"

The dogs are in the house of an evening. The big, biting dog sleeps with the kids (with whom she is as gentle as a lamb). There are loaded weapons stashed in both ends of the house in high, out-of-reach-of-little-hands places. Everyone has been trained on what to do if there is the slightest hint of an intruder. The kids stay in their room with the big dog and the oldest boy turns over the bookcase to barricade the door. Ma grabs the pistol she keeps by the side of her bed and covers the hallway. Pa gets the Mossberg and goes forth into the rest of the house to deal with the intruders. 

I'm a light sleeper. If the cow so much as bumps up against the barn door in the night I'm up and peeking out the window.


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## firegirl969 (Nov 3, 2008)

DH has loaded shotguns around the house and sleeps with his police-issued 40 Glock by the bed. We also have others located around the farm. I like the idea of extra ammo stashed around. We have everything loaded, but the extra ammo is put up. Maybe I need to talk to him about this tonight. Thanks for the idea, firegirl


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## ailsaek (Feb 7, 2007)

We have two dogs, one large, one smallish, both loud. We also live next door to a McMansion with a perfectly groomed lawn (ours is most decidedly not) and expensive cars (we have a VW Bug). If someone's looking to invade a home, they're not likely to pick ours in the first place.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

I have very loud dogs that sound dangerous but would do nothing more than trip the intruders while attempting to be petted. However they sound huge and bark like mad if anyone approaches....even one milimeter...into their territory.

I sleep with an arsenal. Literally. I have them from every possible approach. Blinding spotlights at the end of an upstairs hallway that can be triggered from safely in the master bedroom. My favorite is the moss persuader with tactical shells (I have solid but don't put those in there for that, rather use the shot), though I do worry about overpenetration some. Luckily, kids rooms simply eliminate a small part of the available arc and are not on an approach angle. I also have sirens that will make your ears bleed and a house alarm I can panic button.

Paranoid, maybe. Safe, yes!


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## Snuffy Smith (Dec 9, 2002)

I like the shotgun mounted on the bed mattress, and I like the panic button alarm with loud siren. I live out in the country, and am having an Alarm system installed, on Friday, that will have a loud outside siren, as well as a flashing strobe light. This should scare the Hell out of anyone trying to break in when I'm not there. I guess from an intruders perspective, the most intimadating thing to have aimed at you would be a shotgun...


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## ailsaek (Feb 7, 2007)

Just curious, any of you live in an area where home invasions are common?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> I agree
> 
> Here's mine (I still need a good Surefire flashlight for it:


be honest CF you have that there for self denfense when WIHH wakes up on the wrong side of the bed . 
remember guys a man can only kill you , a woman will just make you wish your were dead :lookout:

seriously nice little set up but Id keep banging my shins on it .


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ivw got five shperherds that patrol the property quite well . they also confront those straying in from all sides . generally two head on and the three circling behind . all our dogs have worked this way its part of the natural hunting instincts . the two coming head on bark to draw attention the three coming from behind seldom bark


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

cowboy joe said:


> I had the same philosophy until a friend of mine showed me an article regarding the penetration of a round on an internal wall. Even lead rounds will go through drywall or a hollow core door which puts the occupants (i.e. children) at risk of being hit by a stray round. This may not be a consideration for those who live alone.
> 
> Buckshot may be a better option:
> 
> ...


In general, I'd agree with you about overpenetration issues. I can be a serious problem. Especially in more suburban/urban areas with very close neighbors.

I probably should have mentioned a couple of things in my first post. First of all, I'm just one of those folks who prefer a rifle or carbine to a shotgun. They will both work will in this situation, just personal preference. Secondly, the penetration issue. Two things I should have clarified here. Where I live, neighbors aren't much of an issue. The other thing is the ammo I specified. Hornady's TAP FPD ammo is designed especially for personal defense. It's designed to not penetrate as much as most other .308 loads. Especially in it's lighter, 110 grain loading (they also make 150 grain in .308). It's not the perfect solution for everyone but I think it would be an ideal choice for me.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

cowboy joe said:


> .....Those who prefer handguns can also use special loads with buckshot instead of a solid projectile. I have loads like these for my 357. The brain isn't totally engaged yet this morning so I wasn't able to find the link to the product. Perhaps someone else can chime in.



You're probably thinking of Glaser Safety Slugs. They come in a number of calibers. dozens of small projectiles suspended in a gel in a plastic bullet. when they hit you, it breaks aparts and send these thing all through your flesh, shredding as they go. A .44 mag safety slug can turn your heart and lungs into hamburger. Nothing for a surgeon to work with. Nice thing is they do not penetrate walls and do not ricochet. Used by some SWAT for hostage sitiuations.

Prior to the Glaser Safety slug was the Black Talon - a prefragmented bullet that also turns your insides into hamburger. However, people got worried it was too lethal and made them illegal in many states.

When Glaser was invented, they decided to use friendlier marketing and dubbed their bullet "The SAFETY Slug" rather than the "THE CHEST SHREDDER". They didn't want anti-gun people to ban them.

I have several "PeaceMakers" near my nightstand.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

With 6 dogs(125lb Shepard down to 2-40lb Beagles),if anyone attempts a home invasion,it would have to be a tweaker.My bedside is Mr.12...3 000 buck and 3 slugs,with buck in chamber,a 1911(Gold Dots rule),and a 90lumen flashlight...Hopefully the wife will handle any problem so I can get my sleep.


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## Wilhelm (Jun 1, 2003)

Early warning is nice, and I have a very effective welcome mat that sleeps right by the front door, so yeah come on in. lol 

I had a package delivered by UPS a few weeks ago, and he stood on the porch after knocking on the door, but the regular door was open and the only thing between him and 120 lbs. of raging pitbull was a little screen door. 
I was napping on the couch when Goliath went off, and I loudly informed him that the dog would take him through the screen door. 

I guess he was a true believer, because he dropped the box and hightailed it for his truck. 

I'm not sure what he was waiting for, but I guess it wasn't that important. lol

Nothing says hello like a big ass dog and a pump shotgun being racked. Yawl come back now ya hear.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

Mossberg by the bed, and 3 good size dogs with attitude (55, 65, and 80 lbs) and big barks who are really loud at the slightest sound that doesn't belong.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Snuffy Smith said:


> I live out in the country, and am having an Alarm system installed, on Friday, that will have a loud outside siren, as well as a flashing strobe light. This should scare the Hell out of anyone trying to break in when I'm not there.


Will also be a nightmare for anyone wearing night vision goggles..lol


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

ailsaek said:


> Just curious, any of you live in an area where home invasions are common?


The biggest problem around here lately are kids breaking into cars. One local learned the hard way that chasing after these bandits with a gun is not a good thing to do in the eyes of the law. Things happened, shots were fired, and sadly one of the teenagers died. The homeowner was charged with murder and will be headed for trial by the end of the year. A terrible tragedy for both families.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

ailsaek said:


> Just curious, any of you live in an area where home invasions are common?


Home invasions aren't common period when you compare them with other breaking and entering crimes if you're talking about the planned sort. Around here the problem is that B&E is going up and there have been more accidental home invasions when it turned out people were home. And also more sneak thief stuff where they come in at night quiet and the people wake up in the morning to find stuff gone. Not sure what that one is about. But in that case too, there have been accidents.

I'm not sure, but I would hazard a guess that the economy making normal targets for thievery less opportune is increasing this. And they are spreading out from their less desirable houses to the suburbs. Right around here anyway.

The chances of an encounter here are going way up. We even got a circular from the city about it in the mail!


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

I am severely lacking in the security department. I do own a .357 mag but that is it weapon wise. I have plenty of ammo for it but I do not rely on it as my main source of security. It is locked up with a barrel cable and not accessible in a pinch. I have four kids and a DH that is NOT into guns at all. 

What I see that could be a problem is that I run a food pantry and many people know it. If things get really bad and people are starving I am pretty sure my house will be the first place they plan to hit. 

I have had food/supplies stashed all over my house but now that my oldest son just moved out into his own place we are in the process of turning his room into my food storage room. It is on the first floor with a big bay window lol.. I now have heavy curtains to cover the window. 

I really like the spotlight at the top of the stairs idea, do you have a link to where I can get an idea of how to do that here? I have two dogs, one is a big 85-90lb pit bull mix and he is scary looking and sounding. He is also very intimidating and can smell fear. He would not hesitate to bite someone breaking in. Like Ernies dog, he is gentle and sweet with his family, but let someone he doesnt know walk through the door and he is a beast. 

I live in a residential suburban neighborhood on a .25 acre lot with neighbors all around me. I need some type of security that will keep looters away.


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## Hip_Shot_Hanna (Apr 2, 2005)

OK 3/4 intruders have just smashed in your front door AND YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT STRAY BUCKSHOT ??? , HMMM lets see , stray shot versus certanty of being beaten to a pulp, wife raped and all posibly shot . I would be far more worried about stray whatever they are carying and what happened IF I did not stop them , anyone that busts in a door aint going to worry about shooting you or your kids .


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Hip_Shot_Hanna said:


> OK 3/4 intruders have just smashed in your front door AND YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT STRAY BUCKSHOT ??? , HMMM lets see , stray shot versus certanty of being beaten to a pulp, wife raped and all posibly shot . I would be far more worried about stray whatever they are carying and what happened IF I did not stop them , anyone that busts in a door aint going to worry about shooting you or your kids .


It's not just about stray shot...it's about hitting the target. There is a much better chance of tagging the target with buckshot due to the spread pattern than with a slug...and a load of buckshot will stop someone dead in their tracks.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

cowboy joe said:


> It's not just about stray shot...it's about hitting the target. There is a much better chance of tagging the target with buckshot due to the spread pattern than with a slug...and a load of buckshot will stop someone dead in their tracks.


Exactly!


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

Dog with nasty attitude patrols the house, Remington 870 hangs by the bed, Colt .45 ACP pistol with Crimson Trace grips sits on the bedside table. Gonna be hellish noisy if any uninvited guests come calling.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

This is an interesting conversation. I'd like to break it down into three different parts (which I believe make up the whole) and discuss those individually.

1. Perimeter detection - What efforts do you use to either secure the outer perimeter of what you consider your "safe area" or to provide early warning of an intruder? To use myself as an example, dogs provide much of the early warning system, but also the isolated nature and silence of my position provide me some warning in case of vehicles approaching.

2. Physical Defense - Once the perimeter is breached, intruders must still gain access to their target, be it material possessions or individuals. What measures do you use to provide that physical defense? Bars on your windows? A special type of door which cannot easily be kicked in? 

3. Methods of repelling intruders - Do you just intend to shoot any intruders, and if so, what is the arrangement of weaponry so that regardless of positioning in no-warning attack, what would you have at hand? Do you have a safe room to lock yourself inside? Do you have an action plan that you've gone over with family members so that in an emergency each person knows what to do?


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

I'll bite!

1. Cleared area around house, the streetlight gives my home a nice pool of light in front, very bright spots on the back that allow me to have a good view of outside approaches from the windows upstairs, home alarm system that covers all entries, including small windows, 2 noisy but essentially harmless dogs that sound like hungry behemoths, dead end street with little traffic, 2 rivers for 2 sides limits approaches.

2. Guns! LOL...seriously, to get upstairs they have a restricted approach that gives me more aim than them. Entrance on hallway I have super bright spotlight that I can remote on. Very loud sirens with remotes as well as house alarm panic button. Each entrance is alarmed and would be very difficult to breach as they are pressure sensitive to both up and down movement ranges. Oh, plus guns.

3. I'm just gonna make sure they're three feet inside and then shoot them. Then again. 

You forgot egress. If egress is necessary for some reason, we have escape ladders in every room and everyone goes to bed with their keys, phone and wallet next to the bed. That is also for fire or any emergency.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> Ivw got five shperherds that patrol the property quite well . they also confront those straying in from all sides . generally two head on and the three circling behind . all our dogs have worked this way its part of the natural hunting instincts . the two coming head on bark to draw attention the three coming from behind seldom bark


 
Isn't that what the military used to call the D.E.W. line (doggie early warning)


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

cowboy joe said:


> There is a much better chance of tagging the target with buckshot due to the spread pattern than with a slug...and a load of buckshot will stop someone dead in their tracks.


That's very true...to a point. At the very close ranges inside an average room, maybe 14-20 feet, the shot pattern with buckshot, or any other type of shot, will only be a few inches across. 

I wasn't criticising you Joe. I hope it didn't sound that way. I just wanted to let folks that may be new to firearms know that while shotguns are very capable and powerful weapons, they're not magic. They still have to be aimed. I've known several people who think that all you have to do is point a shotgun in the general direction and mow down 2 or 3 people with 1 shot. It took a trip to the range to convince them otherwise.


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Murray in ME said:


> That's very true...to a point. At the very close ranges inside an average room, maybe 14-20 feet, the shot pattern with buckshot, or any other type of shot, will only be a few inches across.
> 
> I wasn't criticising you Joe. I hope it didn't sound that way. I just wanted to let folks that may be new to firearms know that while shotguns are very capable and powerful weapons, they're not magic. They still have to be aimed. I've known several people who think that all you have to do is point a shotgun in the general direction and mow down 2 or 3 people with 1 shot. It took a trip to the range to convince them otherwise.


No offense taken. I come here to discuss & learn...always open and appreciative of another's opinion. You're absolutely correct about the spread. 1 3/4 to 3" depending upon the load at a distance of 14' according to the tests these folks did:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm

The key point, to me anyway, is to know the capability of your chosen weapon, how to handle it properly, and your own limitations especially under stress. 

BTW, the other feature of a pump shotgun that I like is the unmistakable, audible metalic sound as a round is chambered. My lighting system is designed that the entry ways can be turned on from other areas of the house (X10 remote control). With any luck, the lights combined with an audible announcement that the owner is armed and the sound of a round being chambered will send the perp running for the door. 

I beleive the bigger question becomes can you pull the trigger if the need arises. In the outdoor world, there is 'buck fever', that is, some first time hunters (and even some seasoned hunters) freeze when it comes time to pull the trigger. Obviously, armed confrontation is not an everyday occurence. More than likely, only those who have been in armed combat or those with significant training / experience can answer that question with any degree of certainty. For everyone else, I suggest that it's best guess. 

Personally, I'd like to believe if my family was at risk that I would not hestitate. That said, nothing says I won't flinch or hesitate. Hopefully I'll never have to find out. Great discussion everyone.


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## Snuffy Smith (Dec 9, 2002)

I like the dog idea also....it would probably be a good idea to set up your yard and fencing so that there is no direct access to the front door,without somone having to walk through the fenced-in front yard(that has your dog in it) to get to the front door.


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## HomegrownAcres (Jun 14, 2009)

As a security professional I have learned that the obvious points of entry are often not the ones used. Do yourself a favor and try to break into your own house without being detected by someone sleeping in a bedroom. If you can open a door, window, or go in through the roof or basement, then that is where someone else would come in.

Early warning is absolutely essential. Make sure that anyone trying to get in would have to make a lot of noise; enough to wake you.

My security system consists of three chihuahuas. Best alarm system I have ever seen.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> This is an interesting conversation. I'd like to break it down into three different parts (which I believe make up the whole) and discuss those individually.
> 
> 1. Perimeter detection - What efforts do you use to either secure the outer perimeter of what you consider your "safe area" or to provide early warning of an intruder? To use myself as an example, dogs provide much of the early warning system, but also the isolated nature and silence of my position provide me some warning in case of vehicles approaching.
> 
> ...


Have clear field of fire on 3 sides(cow/horse field)..dogs for early warning...and I guess I could crank up my 1917/19A1 with 1000rd belt....probably would'nt look good in court though:nono:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Have clear field of fire on 3 sides(cow/horse field)..dogs for early warning...and I guess I could crank up my 1917/19A1 with 1000rd belt....probably would'nt look good in court though


As long as you have your paperwork it wont be a problem


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Dogs and Benelli M4.


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

oops...never mind


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## Wilbur (May 7, 2004)

motion detector lights....nice friendly GSD..(well she's friendly to US! )....followed by an 870 that looks an awwwwful lot like the "bedside gun" ...if that fails I guess I have to grab the .45....or something else that goes bang and sends out lead. Having choices is good.  but I do worry about penetration which is one reason I like shotguns and big heavy bullets for this specifically. Sound is also good and a shotgun being racked is something most nitwits get. Even if they have only seen it in a movie. 

But I agree with what others have said...security is a multi-dimensional discussion/problem....where will they likely come in and what protects best in each area and what provides safety (for you and yours) in each area.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

cowboy joe said:


> BTW, the other feature of a pump shotgun that I like is the unmistakable, audible metalic sound as a round is chambered.



keep in mind, that same sound also lets another person who might have a weapon know which direction to shoot at......food for thought.
I think the sound of a round going off makes a bigger statement.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

If you do a search of home invasion on google news there are always some hits. One example:



> Teen killed in break-in attempt
> South Knoxville homeowner shot 17-year-old, police say
> 
> A 17-year-old boy who was killed during what police described as an attempted home invasion Wednesday in South Knoxville had a criminal record but no history of violent offenses, court records show.
> ...


http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/aug/06/teen-killed-in-break-in/



> The incident began when the homeowner heard someone knocking on his door about 5:25 a.m., according to DeBusk. The man, who was home with his wife, said he put a handgun in his pocket as he went to the door.
> 
> When he was opening the door, two suspects tried to push their way in, DeBusk said. He pulled the gun from his pocket and fired twice, and one of the suspects fired at least once at him.


Ok, how about this for a home invasion defense strategy... don't open the door for strangers.

How many of you don't open the door? How many have a system (peep hole, camera, microphone, yell through the door, ignore them and hope they go away) to deal with people at the door who you do not know?


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## derm (Aug 6, 2009)

1. A good lighted perimeter is helpful. My house has either motion lights or dedicated lights at all doors. 

2. I also use these on all my doors at night. Very tough to kick in a door with both deadbolts and one of these on it. At least you would hear them for sure and it would take multiple kicks.
http://www.taylorbrothersdoorlock.com/


3. Firearms. Sig Sauer p229 with JHP to start for me to work my way back to the rifle which is an AR-15. That is 30 more rounds right there. I am lucky to have the Castle Law in Ohio.

4. Back up plan is hand to hand combat. Many years of mixed martial arts(Krav Maga) in case I cant get to the guns. I highly recommend some self defense training for anyone who needs more security.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Nice idea with the floor mounted door lock. $30 for 2 pieces of alum though, need to scavenge outside & find something similar.


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## Snuffy Smith (Dec 9, 2002)

There are all really good ideas. Since Chuck has a Military background, I would like to hear his thoughts as well.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I read here lots "Nothing like the sound of a pump gun racking a shell" . . . . "That will make em run away"

Just a bit of a reminder here that some of these nasty guys will be hopped up on drugs. . . . . . .so the racking of a shotgun will go in one ear and out the other thru the drug fog.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

y'all are to caught up on the what if's to sleep soundly at night... We've got a little dog, a handy 12 gauge within 15' or so of the common areas, #3 buck shot shells within arms reach of the gun, and you&#8217;ll only get one chance to enter my home before you'll be leaving in a body bag... I rarely think about it, I sleep well at night knowing that I can defend my family if need be.

IMHO Cowboy Joe has the right idea with the statement of "can you pull the trigger"! With a few to many years of service to this country I can honestly answer that question, the folks that load up on arms without the ability to pull the trigger are better off with a golf club or a baseball bat. I personally love a pump shot gun for the sound, make no mistake it's a BIG deterrent that is universally recognized... Think about if you where approached by someone with a pump and they "loaded the chamber" regardless of if the gun was really loaded or not are you going to continue? Hyped up on drugs is where there shells come in...

Sleep well all.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

with a full mag. Shoot till your satisified !!

The idea of blinding Night Vision devices appeals to me greatly, as does creating "tanglefoot" obstacles under windows and other hidden or limited sight distance entries. Basic combat engineer type obstacles are good static defenses and can be quite inconspicious until someone stumbles into them. I also thought a "strong room" with firing ports would be a good idea, secure commo inside. Lastly, remote firing devices, probably a Lanyard operated quad 12 ga, accessing the hallway leading to your strong room at an angle creating a cross-fire would be the ticket.

A quad 12 is made by securing 4 X 12 Ga autoloaders ( 2 if you want to start out that way), and fixing them together with pipe clamps so you have them rigged together so you can put a steel ring or two thru the triggers, and fire them with a pull of a lanyard from a hidden location. My choice is no higher than 1 foot off the floor, parallel so that anything affected by gravity loses its legs, and probably serious buckshot as the load. Rigged right it is the proverbial "ALLEY CLEANER" to be used, say instead of grenades [ in civilian life]. I let the mechanical details to anyone who the time and talent to make a jig and stand to hold these babies.

A good weapon for inside my home is a 12 Ga with a CLASS 3 license as "OTHER WEAPONS" where you pay the $10 Tax to our friend the IRS, and can cut it down to 10" I think. Autoloaders in this config are favored by REAL entry teams and bounty hunters for serious social work, but I imagine you could config a pump this way also. I know there is no love lost btwn us and the IRS, but hey, its an option, and keeps you "legal" if you care.

Just some stuff I think about.

DG



ChristyACB said:


> I'll bite!
> 
> 1. Cleared area around house, the streetlight gives my home a nice pool of light in front, very bright spots on the back that allow me to have a good view of outside approaches from the windows upstairs, home alarm system that covers all entries, including small windows, 2 noisy but essentially harmless dogs that sound like hungry behemoths, dead end street with little traffic, 2 rivers for 2 sides limits approaches.
> 
> ...


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

cowboy joe said:


> No offense taken. I come here to discuss & learn...always open and appreciative of another's opinion. You're absolutely correct about the spread. 1 3/4 to 3" depending upon the load at a distance of 14' according to the tests these folks did:
> 
> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm
> 
> ...



This is by far the best post on this entire thread. I believe you are absolutely right, the mental aspects are far more important than which gun to choose. In an emergency, most any gun will get the job done. The ability and the will to use it are what's really important.

Like you, I've never been in that situation so I can't know 100%. I think I know what I'd do, I hope I know. But like you, I hope I never have to find out.

Thanks for the reminder that the tools aren't the most important part. The person using them is.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

Motion detectors, Lights and Surveilance Camera's.

The Cams are cheap and help you ID where the intruders are hiding. One of the luxuries here is if you have someone that can shoot from hiding, and pick off anyone OUTSIDE that is participating in the assault, particularly if you are in a rural setting where back-up might be a long time coming.

Tactically, the priniciple would be to have the least capable members lock themselves in the strong room and call for back up, while whomever is the best, say one or two family members form a coordinated Anti-Assault Team the executes a coordinated pre-planned series of moves designed to break-up, hunt down and eradicate the invaders or would-be invaders.

Like a "GO" drill, this would be best pre-planned and practiced several times a year. If this sounds silly, so be it. When I had reason to carry, as a civilian, I used to practice regularly, drawing my weapon, assuming a firing position and executing several covered positions, say 100 times in a session, to get myself into good habits. This was completely separate from actual living firing on a range, but gave me good habits and a lot of confidence, warranted or not.

DG



derm said:


> 1. A good lighted perimeter is helpful. My house has either motion lights or dedicated lights at all doors.
> 
> 2. I also use these on all my doors at night. Very tough to kick in a door with both deadbolts and one of these on it. At least you would hear them for sure and it would take multiple kicks.
> http://www.taylorbrothersdoorlock.com/
> ...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

cowboy joe said:


> The biggest problem around here lately are kids breaking into cars. One local learned the hard way that chasing after these bandits with a gun is not a good thing to do in the eyes of the law. Things happened, shots were fired, and sadly one of the teenagers died. The homeowner was charged with murder and will be headed for trial by the end of the year. A terrible tragedy for both families.



there was a guy in racine wi a few years ago unloaded on the 3 breaking into his girlfreinds car , it had been broken into many times and he was ----ed he hit one of them now he gets to spend a good long time in prison , so busy charging him that they forgot to charge all the dead guys accomplaces.


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## netexan (Jan 3, 2008)

2 lg noisy GSD's inside at night, a shotgun and 2 million cp spotlight next to the bed, as well as a fenced and gated perimeter. It's not exactly Ft. Knox type security but it's adequate for my neck of the woods.
In my experience I like the shotgun in this instance, i.e. night time and asleep, as years ago, and in another state, I was awaken in the night by a person trying to get in and it is disorienting to try and hold a 44 mag steady when you first jump out of bed with sleep in your eyes and adrenalin pumping through your body. JMO but I'll stick w/ my trusty pump shotgun in this senario.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

netexan said:


> I was awaken in the night by a person trying to get in and it is disorienting to try and hold a 44 mag steady when you first jump out of bed with sleep in your eyes and adrenalin pumping through your body. JMO but I'll stick w/ my trusty pump shotgun in this senario.


If possible make a S.O.P. (standard operating procedure)and have some drill's. Have someone wake you and practice. You will learn to get your wits about you fast.
As with any conflict, the element of surprise holds a huge advantage.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by cowboy joe
> The biggest problem around here lately are kids breaking into cars. One local learned the hard way that chasing after these bandits with a gun is not a good thing to do in the eyes of the law. Things happened, shots were fired, and sadly one of the teenagers died. The homeowner was charged with murder and will be headed for trial by the end of the year. A terrible tragedy for both families.
> 
> 
> there was a guy in racine wi a few years ago unloaded on the 3 breaking into his girlfreinds car , it had been broken into many times and he was ----ed he hit one of them now he gets to spend a good long time in prison , so busy charging him that they forgot to charge all the dead guys accomplaces.


Neither of those scenarios have anything to do with the one being discussed here.

Some states DO allow you to shoot in defense of property, but it's not allowed in the majority of states


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

I agree with dogs for early warning.

For a home defense weapon in the circumstances described, my choice would be the Saiga-20 semi auto shotgun with a 20 round drum magazine. The Saiga-12 is nice but a little heavy with a full load in a 20 round magazine and a bit more kick. If you can't take out 3-4 intruders with 20 shotgun rounds you aren't trying.

Mike


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

In a perfect world, they'd have to first cross my crocodile-infested moat...

IRL, I feel pretty safe with barking dogs, a locked door, and a 9mm + spare magazine handy.

In reality, probably my greatest security comes from the fact that I live out amongst the shotgun-toting ********. Never heard of someone fool enough to try a home invasion in my area, and it ain't a coincidence.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Gotta ask tallpaul have you ever fired that monster . . ??
And if so how was your wrist and arm afterwards . . ??
And your ear drums . . .??


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Quit with the chest pounding all ready! You both know more than I do. Does that help with your egos?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

With those wise words of wisdom from Cabin Fever, I'm closing this xxxxx match. It's getting no where.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I pulled out the off shoot posts that were deleted, and now this thread can be a bit more on the original topic.

Angie


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## no hurry (Mar 16, 2008)

I have 6 small dogs who bark their little heads off (even the deaf one LOL). The base requires all fire arms to be stored in the armory, so I guess if anyone with serious mal-intent was on base and didn't mind waking the neighborhood, I'd be toast.

My biggest fear once I do move my RV to the country is tweakers. There are a whole passel of them near where I grew up. Thanks for all the awesome ideas on alarms and lights. I think that would be very useful (along with a shotgun and 9mm).


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

We live in a pretty low crime area, but since bad things happen to good people, we try to be prepared.
Our dogs aren't much for guard dogs, so I keep a sawed off Remington model 11 by the bed, and a S&W Sigma with 2 16 round mags on the night stand.
For strange noises outside, or the occasional barking dog, (when our dogs bark, it's cause for alarm) we have a couple 9mm carbines with super bright lights and red dots. 
Works great for sweeping the chicken house in the middle of the night.
We don't worry about over penetration, no kids in the house, and no neighbors within miles.
My brother says I'm paranoid, but I just try to be prepared. If anything did happen, it would take the police at least a half hour to get here, probably longer, so we are pretty much our own law enforcement/protection here.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

how anyone could call another "paranoid" for being prepared is beyond common sense. Even in a city police at best are minutes away when danger could be seconds away. Out in the country ya may be hours from help. 

Bad folks don't have boundaries and aren't usually polite and kind.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

ailsaek said:


> Just curious, any of you live in an area where home invasions are common?


What's your definition of common? Once is too often, IMHO.

Read this ==> http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=319875


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## no hurry (Mar 16, 2008)

tallpaul said:


> how anyone could call another "paranoid" for being prepared is beyond common sense. Even in a city police at best are minutes away when danger could be seconds away. Out in the country ya may be hours from help.
> 
> Bad folks don't have boundaries and aren't usually polite and kind.


One of my coworkers was deployed when her house was invaded by some drugies who mistook her house for a drug house (the actual drug house was an identical house three doors down in their BRAND NEW subdivision). Luckily her husband was armed. He was able to fire on the invaders and get their toddler to safety and call 911. The authorities found one of the criminals dead in their doorway thanks to the quick thinking and willingness to protect his family. They were subjected to a lot of "you must have done something to deserve this" treatment until the investigation uncovered the drug house and discovered the mistake the bad dudes had made.

My friend's husband took a round in the shoulder and still has nightmares from the ordeal and cannot sleep off base without panic attacks. I'm glad he was able to defend himself, but it makes the realization of the trauma an ordeal like that can cause scary. Luckily, their daughter was too little to comprehend what happened. 

I think those ideas of lights, sirens and such are ideal. Youd much rather the bad dudes chicken out and high tail it than have to shoot it out.


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## snakeshooter1 (Mar 8, 2009)

never mind question already asked and it was off topic


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## Henry (Mar 1, 2006)

When my dw and I settled in the bush 40 years ago we built a log home using 16" minimum diameter logs. After seeing up to 9 Bears a day cross our place during Salmon season my wife asked to make sure nothing could break into our home before we could get the guns ready. I was lucky as our walls were extremely strong and our window sills are 9' off the ground due to winter snow. Its not uncommon to get 5' in one night. So my only real problem was the front and rear door. I originally built the outside doors with 2/8 t&g. It made good strong doors but my dw wanted more. What I ended up doing was getting a sheet of 1/8" steel cut to my door size. To attach the wood to steel I drilled many 3/8" holes to bolt the wood door to the steel one also to through bolt the hinges. It was a bear to mount it and I had to use 2 comealongs to position it in place. I did the same for the back door. This might be hard to imagine but those doors will hold up anything and give us time to get our guns. We live in an area where we seldom ever see anyone uninvited and no one is coming to help so we tend to over do it. It makes for sound sleeping.
My observation is most people have completely inadequate locking systems for their doors. We tried dead bolts and do use them when we are gone to the nearest city, about a 5 hour drive but when we close up for the night we just use simple 1"by4"by42" steel bars mounted on a pivot that I found in a scrap yard years ago. The trick is to be religious about locking up. Once it becomes a habit then it no longer seems like a chore.
As for weapons I think preparedness is the key and most any gun whether side arm, rifle or shotgun will do the trick if you know how to use it and keep up on the necessary practice. 
I know this is not realistic for people in organized areas but I thought I would show that you can build a strong door that will stand up to abuse. They even look good as all you see from the outside is the t&g.
Procedures are important. My dw and I have many that we rely on. The main people one is when a stranger shows up only one of us greets them the other usually my dw gets the gun near the door and waits. We are both good shots but shes deadly up to 300 yards. Never had to shoot anyone we are just careful.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I've been at a very large old tractor show (Buckley MI ) so got behind on a whole bunch here.

Gotta ask what the poster above means with the word "tweaker's"?

good post Henry . . .
and tall paul what is that "thing" you posted the pix of ?
Ya . .I know its black and evil . . . .


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## fratermus (May 11, 2009)

Gary in AL said:


> Wall penetration from a solid bullet bothered me until I found some "exploders". They look like a normal hollow point round (mine is .357) with an explosive charge in the hollow of the point. They explode when they hit any solid surface ie. sheetrock wall.


Is there any chance we are really talking about frangible ammo here rather than literally explosive?

Ie, Glaser, Extreme Shock, etc


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## no hurry (Mar 16, 2008)

Jim-mi said:


> I've been at a very large old tractor show (Buckley MI ) so got behind on a whole bunch here.
> 
> Gotta ask what the poster above means with the word "tweaker's"?
> 
> ...


Tweakers are people strung out on Meth. They are pretty easy to spot. Like itchy zombies.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Tallpaul-is that a MKV or an Andrewski tube gun???


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

no hurry said:


> Tweakers are people strung out on Meth. They are pretty easy to spot. Like itchy zombies.


Known around here as meth monkeys...


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

I used to "leave it to the law". Didn't want to be one of those "paranoid" people. And I didn't like the idea of our guns being all about our house. I felt better with them unloaded, well locked up and out of the way in a back closet. Then one night something did happen, I did need protection/back-up and when I called for it I was told -- in a tone that sounded more annoyed that I had called than anything -- that there was one officer on duty in our entire county and it'd be no less than an hour before he could make it "all the way up" here. And then the dispatcher proceeded to ask me (mind you as there is a confirmed intruder just outside my window playing games trying to scare me) if I was SURE she really needed to send the officer out because if she dispatched him up this way he'd be far from the majority of the population of our county where he was _really_ needed. 

We took care of the issue ourselves that night and significantly changed my outlook on the matter thereafter. 

Our plan now includes more strategically placed firearms (I prefer a shotgun for just about everything so they make up the majority) and of course our two early detection systems... dogs. Both are mutts, but they're also awesome guard dogs. Nothing gets past them and they're smart about their tactics. Our male is 125 lbs and our female 65 lbs. Funniest part is the female is the one you better watch out for if you decide you're coming at us. Everyone focuses on the male because he's so much bigger but that girl of ours is a machine and has proved time and time again she will defend her people and home to the death. We had a stray dog come into the yard a few years back when we were out doing some yard work. They were both fine with it until it growled at my husband. She had been sitting about 10 feet behind him when it happened. The dog was about 15 feet in front of him and I no more than had a chance to realize that dog had growled and she already was at it's neck. It was twice her size but she had it by the scruff flung it in the air and had it on it's back pinned to the ground in a matter of seconds. Since then she's proved herself with human intruders as well. We let a friend hunt our woods a few falls back. Didn't even think about the fact he'd have to walk up out of the woods through our backyard after dark. We were inside eating dinner when he came up. Didn't even think about the dogs until he started yelling for us. She had him by the leg for coming up. He said she warned him as he approached the boundary of our yard but he didn't think much about it. As soon as his first foot crossed her imaginary line she'd been guarding she grabbed hold of that pantleg and didn't let go until we came out. He froze where we was at that point. I've no doubt had he tried to advance further she'd have taken him down. And yet, she's as gentle as a lamb with us and our kids. If the kids are in the yard playing she's right there watching them. When they were babies they'd curl up and lay on her on the floor and she'd cuddle them like they were her own. Best dog I've ever had. Don't know how we'll ever replace her.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Cabin Fever said:


> What's your definition of common? Once is too often, IMHO.
> 
> Read this ==> http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=319875


In my county there were 26 home invasions in the month of July. About 30% of the county is rural with the rest being suburbs and a large city. 

I'm looking at the crime statistics now for July ...

3 rapes, 6 assaults, 82 burglaries, 5 stolen cars, and 1 arson. 

That's the metric for reported crimes. Now here's the metrics for arrests:

0 for rapes, 3 for assaults, 4 for burglaries, 0 for stolen cars, 0 for arson.

All I can say is that if local law enforcement was a baseball team with those statistics, I wouldn't go watch them play.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

zant said:


> Tallpaul-is that a MKV or an Andrewski tube gun???


It was done/redone by FAKTS- I was told he was out of texas... and no longer in the "game"


Glad to see someone else hear knows of such


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Very nicely done.....amazing what they go for nowadays...


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

zant said:


> Very nicely done.....amazing what they go for nowadays...


I got it in early 1990/91 or so and have been kickin myself for not getting the 2000.00 1919,the 2500 M-16 or even the 3500 MP5... then a few years back I missed the 2500.oo vector uzi's that were put together with a found stash that really leaped in value as soon as they were available....

I really wish I had grabbed a m16 and the .22 lr conversion for it etc... oh well hindsight ya know


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## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

i live in a one bedroom house. i have 2 hand guns hidden in every room with 2 spare clips for each gun. i have one under the coffe table that is held up by a screwed in magnet to hold it in place with the spare clips. i have a 10 gauge in my bedroom closet. Plus i normaly have my Colt 1911 on me at all times when im in my house


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## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

and if it gets real serious ill just bust out the good ole Armlite AR-15 .556


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## bigolchoirboy (Aug 20, 2009)

I like dogs n several different firearms... bright lights on motion detectors can help too...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

3 Rottweilers, shotguns everywhere and a Taurus Judge, not sure what the Dh's plan is.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Please Note folks- Keep your car/truck keys next to your bed. If your are alarmed and need to, Hit that alarm button.


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