# NOTICE! The possession of firearms is strictly prohibited!



## Cabin Fever

What is your understanding of âPosted: No guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? I have taken two CCW courses in Minnesota given by two different organizations. The instructor at one of the courses was even an ex-legislator who sponsored the CCW bill in Minnesota. 

At any rate, instructors in both courses say the same thing. You can still carry in businesses that have âNo Gunsâ signs posted without violating any state laws. However, if they notice you are carrying and ask you to leave, you have to leave. This is the case whether or not they have a sign posted. If you donât leave, you have violated the stateâs âTrespass Law.â 

In other words, signs posted by businesses in Minnesota that âprohibitâ the carrying of firearms are pretty much unenforceable. What is enforceable is when a business asks you to leave and you refuse. Of course, what Iâve written here does not apply to locations where laws actually prohibit a citizen to carry, such as in US Post Offices, on school grounds, etc.

So, what is your understanding of âNo guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? Do the signs, by themselves, constitute a legally-enforceable requirement?


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## deaconjim

I'm with you on this, CF. I'll be happy to leave if asked, and most likely will never return.


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## Cornhusker

I just assume they don't want my business


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## Cabin Fever

I think you guys are missing my point/question. Do the signs in your state carry the weight of law? Or can you legally disregard them like we can in Minnesota?


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## SteveD(TX)

Cabin Fever said:


> What is your understanding of âPosted: No guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? I have taken two CCW courses in Minnesota given by two different organizations. The instructor at one of the courses was even an ex-legislator who sponsored the CCW bill in Minnesota.
> 
> At any rate, instructors in both courses say the same thing. You can still carry in businesses that have âNo Gunsâ signs posted without violating any state laws. However, if they notice you are carrying and ask you to leave, you have to leave. This is the case whether or not they have a sign posted. If you donât leave, you have violated the stateâs âTrespass Law.â
> 
> In other words, signs posted by businesses in Minnesota that âprohibitâ the carrying of firearms are pretty much unenforceable. What is enforceable is when a business asks you to leave and you refuse. Of course, what Iâve written here does not apply to locations where laws actually prohibit a citizen to carry, such as in US Post Offices, on school grounds, etc.
> 
> So, what is your understanding of âNo guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? Do the signs, by themselves, constitute a legally-enforceable requirement?


In Texas, the verbage the sign must have in order to be enforceable is very specific, and the letters must be 1" high, etc.. Otherwise, they can be and largely are ignore. There is a whole Texas forum devoted to this subject.


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## oth47

That's a very good question,for which I don't have an answer.Obviously,I need to research Tennessee's gun laws more.


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## Bluesgal

To my knowledge in AZ it means that when "properly posted" one is not allowed to carry even with a CCW permit on those premises. 

However, I'm having breakfast tomorrow with a friend who is an instructer here in AZ and will see what he says in the morning.


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## deaconjim

The only restriction I can find is for schools, court houses, etc. You can carry in a bar, but you can't consume alcohol while you are there. No mention is made of carrying in a place with prohibitive signage.


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## Cornhusker

Cabin Fever said:


> I think you guys are missing my point/question. Do the signs in your state carry the weight of law? Or can you legally disregard them like we can in Minnesota?


It's the same here, a sign doesn't necessarily mean it's against the law, but it it doesn't mean it's not.
there are places we aren't allowed to carry by law, schools, banks, the court house, any police station, etc


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## Chuck R.

Here in KS the law reads:

(c)(1) It shall be a violation of this section to carry a concealed handgun in violation of any restriction or prohibition allowed by subsection (a) or (b) if the premises are posted in accordance with rules and regulations adopted by the attorney general pursuant to subsection (f). Any person who violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of: (A) not more than $50 dollars for the first offense; or (B) not more than $100 for the second offense. Any third or subsequent offense is a class B misdemeanor.

So proper signage prohibiting CCW does carry weight of law.

Chuck

Approved Signage - Concealed Carry - Kansas Attorney General Derek Schmidt


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## Cabin Fever

This is our statute relative to signage



> *Minn. Stat. 624.714, subd. 17*
> 
> (a) A person carrying a firearm on or about his or her person or clothes under a permit or otherwise who remains at a private establishment knowing that the operator of the establishment or its agent has made a *reasonable request *that firearms not be brought into the establishment may be ordered to leave the premises. A person who fails to leave when so requested is guilty of a petty misdemeanor. The fine for a first offense must not exceed $25. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this subdivision is not subject to forfeiture.
> 
> (b) As used in this subdivision, the terms in this paragraph have the meanings given.
> (1) *"Reasonable request"* means a request made under the following circumstances:
> (i) the requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign at every entrance to the establishment containing the following language: "(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES."; or
> (ii) the requester or the requester's agent personally informs the person that guns are prohibited in the premises and demands compliance.​ (2) "Prominently" means readily visible and within four feet laterally of the entrance with the bottom of the sign at a height of four to six feet above the floor.
> 
> (3) "Conspicuous" means lettering in black arial typeface at least 1-1/2 inches in height against a bright contrasting background that is at least 187 square inches in area.
> 
> (4) "Private establishment" means a building, structure, or portion thereof that is owned, leased, controlled, or operated by a nongovernmental entity for a nongovernmental purpose.​


So in Minnesota no law is broken unless the establishment makes a "reasonable request" to leave and the CCW holder does not leave. The "reasonable request" has two parts: (1) a sign and (2) a verbal request to leave. A sign by itself does not legally prohibit one from entering the establishment and conducting business.


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## RonM

Mine is LEOSA of 04 adapted by US Congress and I can carry it anywhere, Fed building, Parks, Schools, etc....just make sure I have license on me.....


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## InvalidID

Cabin Fever said:


> I think you guys are missing my point/question. Do the signs in your state carry the weight of law? Or can you legally disregard them like we can in Minnesota?


 Here in Washington you can't be banned from carrying except in courthouses and jails. In the case that you are legally banned from carrying on the premise a secure lock box must be provided and a key given to the gun owner; or someone must be available to check the gun with who will return it to the owner when he leaves. Any and all damage or loss of the firearm during the this time is the sole responsibility of the courthouse,jail, etc. This all assumes you have a CPL (Concealed Pistol License)

Open carry is a little different. We have Peaceable Jury here so transporting is easier. So long as the gun isn't loaded you're good, unless you have a CPL which allows you to be loaded just about anywhere at anytime. Open carry can be banned from stadiums, schools, and other large gatherings. This varies a lot from one municipality to the next though. Stores and such can not ban you from carrying a firearm, neither open nor concealed.

All in all our gun laws are pretty decent here. Not perfect, but considering we're suppose to be a liberal state I'm pretty happy with how things have shaped up. We even passed a law after Katrina to ban the Feds form mass firearm confiscation, even during marshal law.

ETA: I'm not a lawyer nor am I an expert. Please, verify any information I've given in the event I am wrong.

ETA some more: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300


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## ksfarmer

Chuck R. said:


> Here in KS the law reads:
> 
> (c)(1) It shall be a violation of this section to carry a concealed handgun in violation of any restriction or prohibition allowed by subsection (a) or (b) if the premises are posted in accordance with rules and regulations adopted by the attorney general pursuant to subsection (f). Any person who violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of: (A) not more than $50 dollars for the first offense; or (B) not more than $100 for the second offense. Any third or subsequent offense is a class B misdemeanor.
> 
> So proper signage prohibiting CCW does carry weight of law.
> 
> Chuck
> 
> Approved Signage - Concealed Carry - Kansas Attorney General Derek Schmidt


Chuck, I think Kansas is much like Minnesota. Anybusiness can put up the no gun signs, but only designated areas like govt buildings and schools are specified by state law, and you are violating the law if you carry there. All other business can ask you to leave and then you are subject to tresspass laws, but not a violation for carrying.


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## Danaus29

It's been hashed and rehashed in Ohio. Stores are private property. Just like a homeowner can tell you not to bring a gun on their property, stores and businesses can tell you they don't allow guns on their property. You can be arrested and charged with a misdemeanor for carrying on posted property in Ohio.

ETA, your car is your private property and you are legally allowed to leave your gun in your car when on premises that do not allow firearms on the property. That was the ruling of one of the courts. Don't know if I can find it now but it was in the paper and on tv when that decision was made.


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## whodunit

What an amazing country we live in. No business can discriminate against gays (for instance), but they are allowed to discriminate against those carrying guns. Which one of the two practices is literally a constitutional right?


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## MDKatie

So now carrying a gun is a constitutional right but being gay isn't? :hrm: 

Carrying a gun is WAY different than sexual orientation. It's not like gay people can leave their gay at the door. Good grief. Besides, I find it incredibly rude for someone to bring a gun in a store even after they read the sign. You can't get upset about the right to carry guns and then say shop owners should have no right to ask people not to carry guns, that's just hypocritical.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but "The right to bear arms" doesn't say you have the right to carry your gun onto other people's private property.


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## Chuck R.

ksfarmer said:


> Chuck, I think Kansas is much like Minnesota. Anybusiness can put up the no gun signs, but only designated areas like govt buildings and schools are specified by state law, and you are violating the law if you carry there. All other business can ask you to leave and then you are subject to tresspass laws, but not a violation for carrying.


Disagree, not the way the statute reads and the portion I posted is dated March 2012 from the AGs site. Hereâs a cut from the AGs CCW frequently asked questions:



> Can business owners restrict the concealed carry of handguns by Licensees through posting their property?
> 
> o Answer: Yes. However, as per K.S.A. 75-7c10(b) private business owners as well as city, county, or political subdivisions may only restrict the concealed carry of firearms within the building or buildings of that entity.
> 
> â¢If Iâm licensed to carry concealed and I enter a business that is not posted as prohibiting concealed carry, do I have to leave if the owner or an employee sees that I am carrying and asks me to leave?
> 
> o Answer: Yes. While you would not be violating the concealed carry law, if
> you refuse to leave an establishment that has asked you to leave, you could
> be cited for criminal trespassing. This is a result of you remaining in an
> establishment after the owner or employee tells you to leave (K.S.A. 2011
> Supp. 21-5808 [formerly 21-3721]).


The changes that were made in 2010 were to establish that designated NO CCW posted areas had to be buildings Vs. parking lots and fenced in areas such as parks, and they lessoned the penalties for violating a posted building. 

Take a couple minutes and read the statute (top of page 7):

Concealed Carry Statutes Regulations - Kansas Attorney General Derek Schmidt


Chuck


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## pheasantplucker

I went into a store in Columbus Ohio about a year ago...was in the store for a good half hour. When they were ringing up my purchases, I then and just then noticed a small sign thumbtacked to a board (with other notices overlapping it) that said firearms on the premises were not permitted. I informed the person in charge, that if they expect people to not bring in their firearm, they need to post the sign before they come into the store...!!!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Here in Wis you may not remain in a building after being notified by the owner , lease or occupant that you may not carry weapon or weapons or a specific type of weapon in their building , you must leave immediately

It does appear that a sing in a prominent location at each entrance is notice enough 


there are a lot of signs that are not in compliance or are white text on a clear background behind a tinted window that you can't read till you are at the door , I would have written the law so that that a sign had to be visible from the parking lot specifically from the handicapped parking stalls even if it meant another sign on each Handicapped parking post but at lease so that you could drive past the front door and know they don't want your business.


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## Steve L.

Cabin Fever said:


> So in Minnesota no law is broken unless the establishment makes a "reasonable request" to leave and the CCW holder does not leave. *The "reasonable request" has two parts*: (1) a sign and (2) a verbal request to leave. A sign by itself does not legally prohibit one from entering the establishment and conducting business.


That's not how I read it.


> Minn. Stat. 624.714, subd. 17
> 
> (a) A person carrying a firearm on or about his or her person or clothes under a permit or otherwise who remains at a private establishment knowing that the operator of the establishment or its agent has made a reasonable request that firearms not be brought into the establishment may be ordered to leave the premises. A person who fails to leave when so requested is guilty of a petty misdemeanor. The fine for a first offense must not exceed $25. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this subdivision is not subject to forfeiture.
> 
> (b) As used in this subdivision, the terms in this paragraph have the meanings given.
> 
> (1) "Reasonable request" means a request made under the following circumstances:
> 
> (i) the requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign at every entrance to the establishment containing the following language: "(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES.";
> 
> *or*
> 
> (ii) the requester or the requester's agent personally informs the person that guns are prohibited in the premises and demands compliance.


The bolded 'or' above means I have two options: 

I can post a sign, *OR * I can tell you to get the heck out.

I don't have to do both.

But, this part - 


> ( A person carrying) who remains at a private establishment* knowing that the operator* of the establishment or its agent *has made a reasonable request* that firearms not be brought into the establishment *may be ordered to leave *the premises


sure makes it sound like the 'request' has to be made twice. :shrug:


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## ET1 SS

I am not aware of any business here that has such a sign.

I would think that if any did, they would lose a lot of business.


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## InvalidID

ET1 SS said:


> I am not aware of any business here that has such a sign.
> 
> I would think that if any did, they would lose a lot of business.


 When I was a kid in Maine I thought all stores up there sold ammo and liquor. My first trip to Portland was a real surprise...


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## unregistered41671

Cabin Fever said:


> What is your understanding of âPosted: No guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? I have taken two CCW courses in Minnesota given by two different organizations. The instructor at one of the courses was even an ex-legislator who sponsored the CCW bill in Minnesota.
> 
> At any rate, instructors in both courses say the same thing. You can still carry in businesses that have âNo Gunsâ signs posted without violating any state laws. However, if they notice you are carrying and ask you to leave, you have to leave. This is the case whether or not they have a sign posted. If you donât leave, you have violated the stateâs âTrespass Law.â
> 
> In other words, signs posted by businesses in Minnesota that âprohibitâ the carrying of firearms are pretty much unenforceable. What is enforceable is when a business asks you to leave and you refuse. Of course, what Iâve written here does not apply to locations where laws actually prohibit a citizen to carry, such as in US Post Offices, on school grounds, etc.
> 
> So, what is your understanding of âNo guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? Do the signs, by themselves, constitute a legally-enforceable requirement?


That is the way it is in GA. I have been in some stores that are gun free zones but I would want to spend my money with people that are not anti- gun.


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## ET1 SS

InvalidID said:


> When I was a kid in Maine I thought all stores up there sold ammo and liquor. My first trip to Portland was a real surprise...


Portland is like a different nation.

I see posts on occasion from Southern folk who cross the Maine border and stop in Portland. They visit the beach, stay a few days and leave, thinking that they have visited Maine.

Last week [on a different forum] a guy had a long post about life in Maine, blah blah blah. He had spent two weeks 'in Maine', and he never left that tiny Southern corner of metro-urban life. He has no idea that Maine is not urban.

Or that Maine is a 'Shall Issue' state. Anyone who wants to CCW, the police Shall Issue a permit [unless the police can prove the person is a felon]. 

Of course Maine allows Open Carry.

And like you said most places sell ammo and liquor.

Here in my township we have one store-front business, and only one. Towns like this, when they only have one store, that one store will usually only be one of two things. Basically a 50/50 choice either it will be a general store with ammo and liquor, or else a restaurant.

Our store front is a gunsmith. So lots of guns / ammo, but no liquor.


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## Marshloft

InvalidID said:


> When I was a kid in Maine I thought all stores up there sold ammo and liquor. My first trip to Portland was a real surprise...


 I think there should be an "AT&F" on every corner.
Alcohol,Tobacco and Firearms sold here.


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## Melissa

I know people who carry guns everywhere they go- on their person. They just don't let anyone know they are carrying it. The signs don't seem to matter much to them...


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## whodunit

MDKatie said:


> So now carrying a gun is a constitutional right but being gay isn't? :hrm:
> 
> Carrying a gun is WAY different than sexual orientation. It's not like gay people can leave their gay at the door. Good grief. Besides, I find it incredibly rude for someone to bring a gun in a store even after they read the sign. You can't get upset about the right to carry guns and then say shop owners should have no right to ask people not to carry guns, that's just hypocritical.
> 
> And correct me if I'm wrong, but "The right to bear arms" doesn't say you have the right to carry your gun onto other people's private property.


Yes, the right to bear arms is a constitutional right which is EXPLICITLY stated. While the right to be gay may be implied (debatable) it is not an explicitly stated right. 

However, my point is that the government has FORCED private businesses not to discriminate against gay people regardless of how the business owner feels, but they will allow or stay out of the issue of whether a business can stop others from exercising their constitutional right to bear arms.

It's also funny that you are concerned about "other people's private property" when it comes to guns, but not when they are forced to serve people they don't like on that same private property.

By the way, for the record, if I was a businessman, I would make every effort not discriminate against anyone since my goal is to have as large a customer base as possible. I just don't want the government involved. 

My apologies to the OP for going off-topic- this will be my last comment on the issue.


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## zant

Portland is'nt in Me,it's in North M-------chusetts

No stores in my neck of the woods have signs.....I carry whenever I go out....no matter what State I'm in.......but I like being discrete and below radar so when I talked to the nice cop in Ill.,he did'nt have a clue I had 2 guns on me.


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## MDKatie

whodunit said:


> Yes, the right to bear arms is a constitutional right which is EXPLICITLY stated. While the right to be gay may be implied (debatable) it is not an explicitly stated right.
> 
> However, my point is that the government has FORCED private businesses not to discriminate against gay people regardless of how the business owner feels, but they will allow or stay out of the issue of whether a business can stop others from exercising their constitutional right to bear arms.
> 
> It's also funny that you are concerned about "other people's private property" when it comes to guns, but not when they are forced to serve people they don't like on that same private property.
> 
> By the way, for the record, if I was a businessman, I would make every effort not discriminate against anyone since my goal is to have as large a customer base as possible. I just don't want the government involved.
> 
> My apologies to the OP for going off-topic- this will be my last comment on the issue.


I missed the explanation of the way you can look at someone and tell they he/she is gay.


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## idigbeets

AFAIK each state has slightly different interpretations of the UFA. I think some parts of the UFA are up to interpretation, however in PA, I think it's clear.
There are a number of prohibited locations:

Off-limits places in PA and what makes them off-limits:
1. Court Facilities - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 913
2a.*Grounds and buildings of Elementary and Secondary schools(K-12 grades), whether the school is private or public. There is an affirmative defense for "other lawful purposes" however there is no case law determining on what that includes. To be safe, its wiser to assume it does not include our carrying "rights". - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 912
2b. Within 1000ft of a school unless you have a license/permit issued by the state in which the school is located - US Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Subsection 922(q)
3. Casinos - by regulation Title 58, Part VII, Chapter 465, Subsection 465a.13
4. Certain Department of State buildings - by regulation
5. ****Places off-limits by Federal Law or regulation, IE: military installations(exceptions for hunting at some bases), Federal Government buildings, after the security check point in airports,etc.
6. Any private property where a landowner, tenant or person so authorized to maintain property has asked you to leave because you are carrying, *or where the property owner or tenant has placed signs or placards denoting that guns are forbidden - Title 18, Chapter 35, Subsection 3503*
7. Detention facilities, correctional institutes, or mental hospitals - Title 18, Chapter 51, Subsection 5122


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## Cabin Fever

Steve L. said:


> That's not how I read it.
> 
> 
> The bolded 'or' above means I have two options:
> 
> I can post a sign, *OR * I can tell you to get the heck out.
> 
> I don't have to do both.
> 
> But, this part -
> 
> sure makes it sound like the 'request' has to be made twice. :shrug:


That is what was drilled into my brain by two different instructors. And, as I said before, one of the instructors was an ex-legislature that sponsored the bill. A sign alone is not enough to require you to leave the premises. A verbal request also has to be made.


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## whiterock

Don't remember the exact verbage, on door of restaurant I was in last night something to the order of,,,,, The possession of an unlicensed firearm in this premises is not allowed.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I help with a festival and part of the board asked about posting the event , as they always had no weapons right after no pets in the program this year it will say no unauthorized weapons , and no other posting will be done.

the details of what you must do to post a special event make it not worth their trouble 

if anyone asks what "no unauthorized weapons means" , it means because we have a temp class B liquor license you must have a CCL and not drink. something anyone with a CCL already knows.


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## frankva

ET1 SS said:


> I am not aware of any business here that has such a sign.
> 
> I would think that if any did, they would lose a lot of business.


Several here have then including the opthamologist I visit. Her place of biz, her office. I respect that. I could always choose another doc.

She has bumper stickers that I don't care for either, but I can overlook some things. 

She is allowed to be a wingding. Might need her talent down the road.


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## beowoulf90

Cabin Fever said:


> What is your understanding of âPosted: No guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? I have taken two CCW courses in Minnesota given by two different organizations. The instructor at one of the courses was even an ex-legislator who sponsored the CCW bill in Minnesota.
> 
> At any rate, instructors in both courses say the same thing. You can still carry in businesses that have âNo Gunsâ signs posted without violating any state laws. However, if they notice you are carrying and ask you to leave, you have to leave. This is the case whether or not they have a sign posted. If you donât leave, you have violated the stateâs âTrespass Law.â
> 
> In other words, signs posted by businesses in Minnesota that âprohibitâ the carrying of firearms are pretty much unenforceable. What is enforceable is when a business asks you to leave and you refuse. Of course, what Iâve written here does not apply to locations where laws actually prohibit a citizen to carry, such as in US Post Offices, on school grounds, etc.
> 
> So, what is your understanding of âNo guns allowedâ signs at businesses in your state? Do the signs, by themselves, constitute a legally-enforceable requirement?


No their signs don't carry any legal weight, unless it is a Government building..But as you said if they ask you to leave, it is best to do so immediately or risk prosecution for defiant/criminal trespass or what ever they call it. Much like the No trespassing signs you might put up on your land. If you catch someone on your property, you can only ask them to leave, then if they refuse, you can get them for criminal trespassing. But up till that point the law won't do anything about it...


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## Danaus29

idigbeets, PA might have to revisit this one:
2b. Within 1000ft of a school unless you have a license/permit issued by the state in which the school is located - US Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Subsection 922(q
It's already been found unconstitutional in Ohio and the wording has been removed from the ORC. Also changed was the cemetery clause, not allowed to discharge a firearm within 1000 feet of a cemetery, that has been changed to read except for property owners on their property with the bullets remaining on their property.


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## doc66

LOL. Since I have moved to South Carolina, I have to say, I've not seen a single sign. They might exist, but no where I frequent. Where I work, we have people coming in all the time, armed, barely concealed, and no one says a thing to them. When I teach the firearms courses, our advice is simple; if it is concealed, no one is supposed to know anyway. By the time they do find out that you are, a sign is beyond meaning.


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## The Tinker

So... if I'm a shop owner, can I tell people that shoes aren't allowed in my store? Or jewelry? How about shirts? Can I make a sign that makes it "illegal" to wear a shirt in my store? (Toplessness is legal in the state of NC for both men and women). I'm just wondering how far the "No * allowed" goes. Is it _just_ firearms or does it expand to include any other non-desirable items. Maybe a "No credit cards allowed" would get some notice, lol.


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## Cabin Fever

Tinker, I believe a shop owner has a right to post any kind of sign that prohibits any kind of activity in his/her privately-owned store. If a customer conducts the prohibited activity, the shop owner has the right to ask the person to stop or leave. If the customer continues the prohibited activity, I believe the customer is violating trespass laws and can be legally fined and/or forced to leave by a LEO.


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## Danaus29

Just don't post any signs saying "English ONLY spoken here". That one will get you in a lot of hot water.


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## siberian

Ohio, is , if the sign says no, then they arnt allowed. Most of those places, I feel really dont want my money. By the way Happy Birthday Cabin.


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## RonM

No shirt, no shoes , no service, its their store, you see those signs , people abide by them, so whatever they post should be adhered to.......


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## beowoulf90

RonM said:


> No shirt, no shoes , no service, its their store, you see those signs , people abide by them, so whatever they post should be adhered to.......


That sign is require by the FDA, not the store...

I agree that their wishes should be adhered to, but the question was what legal enforcement did they have behind the signs.. 

So from my understanding the only legal enforcement they have is when they ask you to leave and you don't, they can get you for trespassing of some form. That is not to say you shouldn't respect their signs if you see them. If I see a no firearms sign on their door I will respect their private property rights and do business some where else... Now if I don't see it posted and they ask me to leave, I do so without any trouble. But I will not do business with them if at all possible..

All of the above is premised on the fact of a private business, not a government building of any kind...


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## ET1 SS

beowoulf90 said:


> That sign is require by the FDA, not the store ...


The FDA requires signs of: 'No shirt, no shoes, no service" ???

What about stores that do not have such a sign?

Do some stores get exempted?

Are you sure about this?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

ET1 SS said:


> The FDA requires signs of: 'No shirt, no shoes, no service" ???
> 
> What about stores that do not have such a sign?
> 
> Do some stores get exempted?
> 
> Are you sure about this?


our grocery co-op now posts that you may go barefoot in their grocery store but it is at your own risk

maybe they figured out no one in the gov was going to come and enforce the no shoe law or maybe it doesn't exist , it wouldn't be the first time someone lied about it being a law to point at the gov an not them covering a liability.

i am tired of lies , if corporate said it so be it , if the lawyers say it pin it on them, if your insurance provider requires it to give the rate you receive so be it . but don't lie about it and say it's a law miss information just continues a lie. the truth will set you free.

as for no shirt what is the point , a freinds uncle farmed so he was his own employer would almost never wear a shirt at least 6 months of the year, he had a button up shirt in his truck with the sleeves cut off that he would toss on when he went into a place that required a shirt he wouldn't button it up either , so if a scrap of fabric counts as a shirt what was the point. it is the norm for kids/teens here in the summer to cut the sleeves and the sides out of their shirts , the girls wear a sport bra under their tatter of a shirt 
and if your shoes are flip flops and nothing but the bottom of your foot is covered and just barely what is the point. maybe liability over broken glass , but they run bare foot on gravel so i am not sure that is that big of a concern either.


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## beowoulf90

ET1 SS said:


> The FDA requires signs of: 'No shirt, no shoes, no service" ???
> 
> What about stores that do not have such a sign?
> 
> Do some stores get exempted?
> 
> Are you sure about this?


Yes, any place that sells food is required to have such a sign by the FDA.. Or so it was when I worked in the food service industry... The same as wearing hair nets and such in the restaurant kitchens or the flour mills (the flour mills may be covered by the AG department) but either way they are/were required to wear hair nets if you handled raw foods/flour..


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## ||Downhome||

Cabin Fever said:


> That is what was drilled into my brain by two different instructors. And, as I said before, one of the instructors was an ex-legislature that sponsored the bill. A sign alone is not enough to require you to leave the premises. A verbal request also has to be made.


Correct, not everyone can read,not every one pays attention,some would just not have any interest in reading it.

You do not need the sign though, a simple "Remove Yourself from the property"
is all that's needed.

A sign helps avoid a lot of verbal interaction with civil people who read signs and follow direction.


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## ||Downhome||

Cabin Fever said:


> Tinker, I believe a shop owner has a right to post any kind of sign that prohibits any kind of activity in his/her privately-owned store. If a customer conducts the prohibited activity, the shop owner has the right to ask the person to stop or leave. If the customer continues the prohibited activity, I believe the customer is violating trespass laws and can be legally fined and/or forced to leave by a LEO.


All you have to do is post signs that says 
"NOT OPEN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC" and "NO TRESPASSING"


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## lathermaker

Cabin Fever said:


> I think you guys are missing my point/question. Do the signs in your state carry the weight of law? Or can you legally disregard them like we can in Minnesota?


In the CC class I took a few months ago here in IA, the instructor told us basically the same thing. (he is an Attorney in Utah) The owner can ask you to leave, but you aren't breaking any laws by carrying. If you don't leave when asked, you can be charged with tresspassing on private property.

But, in the case of a school, courthouse etc. you can get in deep doo doo if you don't pay attention to those.


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## idigbeets

There's a difference between prohibited locations vs private locations. While a post office is a private location, it is also prohibited carry. It's important to know your own state's laws regarding where you can carry.


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## tyusclan

I read through the entire Florida statute on firearms and concealed carry, and could not find it addressed directly. I asked my BIL, who is a deputy sheriff, and he said his understanding of Florida law was that you were not prohibited from carrying into the premises by law, but if asked to leave you had to leave or face trespassing charges, as is apparently the case in most states.

We're also going to check with the State Attorney's office and get their take on it.


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## machinistmike

What about the obvious point of respecting the business owners wishes? If he has a sign that says no guns is it that hard to give the business that respect? If you don't want to give up your gun then take your business elsewhere. Both parties are happy. Why try to make a mountain of a mole hill? I think a person that ignores a sign like that only gives the anti gun crowd more to use against those that wish to carry.


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## edcopp

Conceal properly and nobody will know if you carry or not.


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## diamondtim

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> Here in Wis you may not remain in a building after being notified by the owner , lease or occupant that you may not carry weapon or weapons or a specific type of weapon in their building , you must leave immediately
> 
> It does appear that a sing in a prominent location at each entrance is notice enough
> 
> 
> there are a lot of signs that are not in compliance or are white text on a clear background behind a tinted window that you can't read till you are at the door , I would have written the law so that that a sign had to be visible from the parking lot specifically from the handicapped parking stalls even if it meant another sign on each Handicapped parking post but at lease so that you could drive past the front door and know they don't want your business.


There are some who have a "reading defect" when it comes to those signs.

That is what the guy who shot the robbers in the Aldi's in Milwaukee claimed. He didn't notice the sign that was posted at the door.


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## littlejoe

Cabin Fever said:


> At any rate, instructors in both courses say the same thing. You can still carry in businesses that have &#8220;No Guns&#8221; signs posted without violating any state laws. However, if they notice you are carrying and ask you to leave, you have to leave. This is the case whether or not they have a sign posted. If you don&#8217;t leave, you have violated the state&#8217;s &#8220;Trespass Law.&#8221;
> 
> In other words, signs posted by businesses in Minnesota that &#8220;prohibit&#8221; the carrying of firearms are pretty much unenforceable. What is enforceable is when a business asks you to leave and you refuse. Of course, what I&#8217;ve written here does not apply to locations where laws actually prohibit a citizen to carry, such as in US Post Offices, on school grounds, etc.
> 
> So, what is your understanding of &#8220;No guns allowed&#8221; signs at businesses in your state? Do the signs, by themselves, constitute a legally-enforceable requirement?


I think you've pretty well answered your own question? You have to know your laws!

A few years ago I was late getting a BD gift for#3 son. I went to Wally world, and purchased a shotgun and a brick of ammo for him. Upon completion of the transaction, I was informed by the clerk that he would carry them while accompaning me to my vehichle, and told me that the gun and ammo must be stored separately, ie...one in front, one in trunk.

I immediately told him I had a sales receipt in my hand to prove ownership, and ...ed if I would stow it by thier rules! ( i was in a pickup, but they had no need to know) He replied that it was store policy and would call managment. I immediately told him to do it, saying store policy is not law!

He called for management three times, and none showed! I picked them up and left, and nary a challenge!

I could have done with the courtesy of them carrying them out, just not stating how I had to stow them!

If I wanted to enter a place that asked me not to pack, I would weigh that decision as to whether I wanted to enter and do business there?

I respect the needs of others. but they need to respect my rights as well!


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## lurnin2farm

I think its the Ins companies that have the no shorts no shoes policy. Probably a liability issue. 

I'm not sure the FDA has jurisdiction to make those rules in private establishments in every state. Gov jurisdiction is very limited even if they dont think so.


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## sirquack

Lathermaker, Iowa is exactly as you stated. The signs do not carry the force of law. If they notice a weapon, they can ask you to leave, but that is trespassing, not a gun law issue. 
However, we do have reciprocity with Nebraska and their signs do carry the force of law. It would end with you losing your permit if you were charged in NE as ignoring their laws. 
But as others have stated, I would always consider whether I would do business with a service provider or vendor that did not allow me to perform my 2nd amendment rights. Which is also one of the main reasons I try as much as possible to never do business in the entire state of Illinois.


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## JJ Grandits

I am firearm owner, a second admendment advocate. hwoever, on private property, such as a business, if they say no guns, IT'S NO GUNS!!!!!!! You come on my PRIVATE PROPERT follow my rules or leave! Don't like it? To ---- bad. My land! not yours!.


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## beowoulf90

JJ Grandits said:


> I am firearm owner, a second admendment advocate. hwoever, on private property, such as a business, if they say no guns, IT'S NO GUNS!!!!!!! You come on my PRIVATE PROPERT follow my rules or leave! Don't like it? To ---- bad. My land! not yours!.


I don't think anyone is arguing that! 
The question was what penalty of law does it carry if a private land owner has a sign saying no guns..

The answer seems to be that they can ask you to leave and if you don't do so immediately you can be fined/arrested for defiant trespassing, but you are not in violation of any gun laws.. NOTE: this is referring to PRIVATE property.. Government property is a completely different set of rules and laws which vary by municipality, State and Federal authorities...


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## DYngbld

> I would always consider whether I would do business with a service provider or vendor that did not allow me to perform my 2nd amendment rights. Which is also one of the main reasons I try as much as possible to never do business in the entire state of Illinois.


I have walked up to a store, saw the sign and walked off more then once. I was once approched by a stor owner as I was walking away. I told him, "thank you, for letting me know he didn't support gun ownership, and for saving me the money I would have spent in his store" I have heard that the sign has been removed, I still will not do bussiness there.


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## Wanderer0101

InvalidID said:


> Here in Washington you can't be banned from carrying except in courthouses and jails. In the case that you are legally banned from carrying on the premise a secure lock box must be provided and a key given to the gun owner; or someone must be available to check the gun with who will return it to the owner when he leaves. Any and all damage or loss of the firearm during the this time is the sole responsibility of the courthouse,jail, etc. This all assumes you have a CPL (Concealed Pistol License)
> 
> Open carry is a little different. We have Peaceable Jury here so transporting is easier. So long as the gun isn't loaded you're good, unless you have a CPL which allows you to be loaded just about anywhere at anytime. Open carry can be banned from stadiums, schools, and other large gatherings. This varies a lot from one municipality to the next though. Stores and such can not ban you from carrying a firearm, neither open nor concealed.
> 
> All in all our gun laws are pretty decent here. Not perfect, but considering we're suppose to be a liberal state I'm pretty happy with how things have shaped up. We even passed a law after Katrina to ban the Feds form mass firearm confiscation, even during marshal law.
> 
> ETA: I'm not a lawyer nor am I an expert. Please, verify any information I've given in the event I am wrong.
> 
> ETA some more: RCW 9.41.300: Weapons prohibited in certain places


I quite like Washington's gun laws. Just got a Washington permit because my daughter lives there and they don't recognize my state's permit. Quick, easy, cheap, couldn't be better. Wife and daughter got theirs as well. Took two weeks for delivery to our out of state address and one week for my daughter.


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## bassmaster17327

idigbeets said:


> AFAIK each state has slightly different interpretations of the UFA. I think some parts of the UFA are up to interpretation, however in PA, I think it's clear.
> There are a number of prohibited locations:
> 
> Off-limits places in PA and what makes them off-limits:
> 1. Court Facilities - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 913
> 2a.*Grounds and buildings of Elementary and Secondary schools(K-12 grades), whether the school is private or public. There is an affirmative defense for "other lawful purposes" however there is no case law determining on what that includes. To be safe, its wiser to assume it does not include our carrying "rights". - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 912
> 2b. Within 1000ft of a school unless you have a license/permit issued by the state in which the school is located - US Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Subsection 922(q)
> 3. Casinos - by regulation Title 58, Part VII, Chapter 465, Subsection 465a.13
> 4. Certain Department of State buildings - by regulation
> 5. ****Places off-limits by Federal Law or regulation, IE: military installations(exceptions for hunting at some bases), Federal Government buildings, after the security check point in airports,etc.
> 6. Any private property where a landowner, tenant or person so authorized to maintain property has asked you to leave because you are carrying, *or where the property owner or tenant has placed signs or placards denoting that guns are forbidden - Title 18, Chapter 35, Subsection 3503*
> 7. Detention facilities, correctional institutes, or mental hospitals - Title 18, Chapter 51, Subsection 5122


What you bolded is under tresspass law not firearm law so it would not be a firearms law violation it would be a defiant tresspass charge


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## Harmless Drudge

whodunit said:


> What an amazing country we live in. No business can discriminate against gays (for instance), but they are allowed to discriminate against those carrying guns. Which one of the two practices is literally a constitutional right?


Their right to their property trumps your lack of rights to bring your property onto theirs. I don't allow anyone and everyone to bring their guns onto my property.


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