# First season foundationless



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

This was my first time experimenting with going foundationless. I'd been reading up on using small cell foundation and the benefits that are being claimed. The proponents say that the smaller cell size is closer to what the bees draw naturally. At which point I asked myself.....why not just let the bees make their own comb? If in doubt I always assume that the bees know what they are doing.

Turns out that assumption is correct once again. In any beekeeping venue you will hear beekeepers disagreeing on the merits of plastic foundation. I am now one of those that will be advocating against wax foundation as well. 

I did several experiments in my bee yard as well as in several students hives and in the small bee yard I set up for my ex. In my hives as well as various others there were boxes set up with wax foundation in some frames and foundationless frames. These were set up within the same hive. The bees always....100% of the time....drew out the foundationless frame first. They virtually ignored the frames with foundation in them except to chew off wax to use other places in the hive. Once they had the foundationless completely drawn they would work a bit on the frames with foundation.

The main argument for using foundation is so as not to have an excessive amount of drone comb. I have no more drone comb in my hives now than I did when I used wax foundation. Another pleasant bonus is the ease with which I am able to cut out queen cells. Being able to cut out chunks of comb honey has been lovely as well.

I have not noticed mites in my hives and hope that this is a contributing factor.

Next year I plan to try different ways of reinforcement for foundationless frames that will be used for honey extraction.


----------



## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

This is great information, thank you.


----------



## rwjedi (Jun 18, 2004)

TxMex said:


> This was my first time experimenting with going foundationless. I'd been reading up on using small cell foundation and the benefits that are being claimed. The proponents say that the smaller cell size is closer to what the bees draw naturally. At which point I asked myself.....why not just let the bees make their own comb? If in doubt I always assume that the bees know what they are doing.
> 
> Turns out that assumption is correct once again. In any beekeeping venue you will hear beekeepers disagreeing on the merits of plastic foundation. I am now one of those that will be advocating against wax foundation as well.
> 
> ...


I love foundationless, it's the only thing I've used in my hives for 10 years. Here is a popular video I did about foundationless. I try to cover the basics to help a new person be successful with foundationless from the beginning.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SPvuWvVkc&list=UUUJpugtC8DATt5CampP4RtA[/ame]


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

My way is much easier. Get the wedge top frames and simply remove the wedge. That's it! That gives them a lip to start drawing from. I avoid using glue in my frames because of the formaldehyde. 

Glad you've had good luck with foundationless too!


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I went into much greater detail here: http://www.easttxbees.com/foundation.htm


----------



## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

I would like to try this method this Spring. I've never ordered this type of frame before and see there are two choices at MannLake, Do I want wedge top and groove bottom or wedge top and split bottom frames? Also, I saw a video of regular frames that had most of the plastic foundation cut away except for a narrow strip left from top to bottom. The bees made comb, I guess, using the bit of foundation as a guide. There must have been a tiny edge of foundation at the top of the frame. Would that work as well as using an empty wedge top frame.

I'm thankful for everyone who puts up websites and videos. They are so helpful.


----------



## Avalon Acres (Dec 1, 2006)

I started beekeeping four years ago with three deep frame nucs, all being a mixture of drawn plastic and wax foundation. I currently have fifteen hives, 95% foundationless. I still have a few of the original nuc frames to remove. My experience has been positive. I use the top wedge, bottom grooved frames, with the bottom bar upside down (groove on bottom side since foundation not being installed). I find that it is easier for bees to knock small hive beetles (shb) off the bottom of the bars than to have beetles scurrying in grooves on topic of bottom bars. This makes me feel better, anyway. Split bottom frames would give shb a place to hide.

Break your wedge off and install with 3 or 4 tacks. I use a brad nailer and 5/8 brads. Glue is not necessary.

On another note, I have had a few newly drawn frames collapse in a heavy flow, usually outside frames on the side of the afternoon sun. Facing the ends of bars towards the prevailing sun direction seems to help. I am also 75% complete with converting all supers and hive bodies to mediums. This will also make collapse less likely, as I have not had a medium drawn comb collapse at this point.

You will need to place foundationless frames between straight drawn comb to lessen the chance of cross comb.


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I use the wedge top groove bottom. The bottom is sturdier that way. I find that the wood used in the split bottom is very thin and has a tendency to warp after a while. 

The bees simply don't need anything other than the lip to start from when you remove the wedge. I did a few frames where I turned the wedge sideways and stapled it in, but they are no better than without. 

Beekeepers are always trying to 'help' their bees. Over the years the bees have taught me time and time again that simpler is better. 

You might try strips of plastic foundation in your hives alongside other configurations and see how it does for you. That is one of the things I love about beekeeping....I'm always running experiments in my bee yard!


----------

