# grrr frustration



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

My gelding is a little barn sour and there's one spot on my dirt road where he likes to throw hissy fits and fight about going forward. It's not usually a big deal, we get very little traffic. Today we were doing our usual dance in the middle of the road when a car came and stopped about 50 feet in front of us. Al does fine when cars keep going but he gets nervous when they stop - plus this was a real convenient excuse for him to continue to fight me about going forward. So he wouldn't go forward and the car refused to move even when I signaled them and I felt like I had no choice but to turn around. So I turned around and what do I see behind me? A school bus and a truck also pulled over and refusing to move. So here I am with an audience and a horse pitching a fit refusing to go anywhere. It was so godawful embarrasing. I actually had to get off him and walk him past the stupid car in front of me and then stand on the side of the road with him so the school bus and the truck would go past. Then of course I couldn't get back on. I tried to get him to stand in the ditch but he wouldn't. We must have walked half a mile before I could find a place to get back on him, then we got to our trail and I had to get off to clear the trail and once again had a terrible time getting back on.

Any suggestions on how to get back on when I'm on the trail? I'm short and have a rough time reaching the stirrup. I've asked people about those stirrup extensions you can use that hang off your stirrup, then you pull them up when you get on. Everybody I've mentioned them to says they don't work well. I'm thinking I need to pack a step stool somehow.....

Also, he's a real pain every time I try to use my cell phone. We can just be plodding along in a straight line on a road or a trail with loose reins but as soon as I take the phone out he starts going where I don't want him to go. His whoa stops working, he starts backing up etc. What's up with that, and is there anything I can do to fix it? I occasionally ride when I'm on call for my job and I'm required to answer my phone then.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

He can probably hear the phone and it may hurt.

As for the spot in the road, I would make it the best spot. I&#8217;d lay a trail of carrots (apples, biscuits) down ahead of time. I&#8217;d have a few carrot pieces in my pocket as well and toss them in front of him to put his head down and look for carrots. Before he knows it, he will have willingly crossed the scary spot. On the way back, I&#8217;d toss carrots in front of him to get to cross it. Every time. When I noticed he was looking forward to the scary spot, I&#8217;d drop fewer carrots and fewer until at some point I would just offer him the reward from the saddle.

I think it&#8217;s nice that people give right of way to a horse. The bus driver has the added responsibility of showing the children wait for a horse. Maybe give him more training time around parked cars?

As for being short, I&#8217;m 4&#8217;10&#8221; and what you need is a guy to follow you around so he can lift you up into the saddle when necessary. Barring that, get the elongated stirrup and try it out.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Maura, I never in a million years would have thought of that! Such a pleasant solution. It's breaking the "no eating with a bit in your mouth" rule, though. Is that ok?

As far as the phone goes he does it even when I take a picture or send a text. Another horse I used to ride was even worse about the phone. Freaked right out if I would talk, got antsy if it was even in my hand. I had a rather hilarious conversation with someone once when I was on call. It went "hi, this is....WHOA WHOA oh spit she's bucking HHHEEELLLPPP!" Thank God I had dialed the wrong number so I didn't make an idiot of myself with my boss. It was some guy saying "who is this, are you OK?"


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

OMG I just found out who was in the vehicles. The equine massage therapist next door, another horse person, the mailman who goes to my church, and the new neighbors. And there I was not controlling my horse. I wanted to take the reins and smack him hard in the butt to make him go forward but I've never done it before and I was afraid that he'd buck in front of everybody or somebody would start telling everyone I was hitting my horse. Sometimes it's hard living in a small area where everybody knows everybody. Maybe I didn't look as stupid as I felt....


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Have you tried circling him until he goes? My high strung Arabian mare had an attitude. She only wanted to run, and always threw up her head so I couldn't do much with the reins. A tie-down and making her go in circles usually fixed it.
Do you usually talk to your horse in the saddle? I would try chattering constantly, and maybe standing at the fence while he's eating and fiddling on your phone, maybe over time he'll get used to it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It sounds to me like your horses are a bit spoiled and in need of some wet saddle blankets and likely some additional ground work. 

I use my phone often when riding and a properly trained horse does not act up when mommy is on the phone but I absolutely will not dismount and lead a horse because the battle is immediately lost. 

Mounting is also a manners issue and if you want your horse to stand, it stands, if it doesn't stand, back it up and reposition it until it stands where you want and when you want. 

I don't bribe with treats because horses come to expect treats and the problem may magnify. It may work for you but it's not something I would try.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Also, if these were horse people, I doubt they were thinking you were stupid. They were just waiting patiently, not wanting to cause your horse to run off with you. I always slow WAAAY down if a horse is in front of me. And I would stop too if I was afraid my car going by would frighten it more.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

And can you take him out at a time when there's pretty much zero traffic? I would try making him cross there so often he'd get bored with it.
This may look dumb...but I'd strap a step stool on the back of my western saddle if I couldn't reach, lol, with a string attached to the saddle horn to pull that sucker back up!


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## MCJam (Dec 27, 2012)

Sounds like you need to go back to some basics. This horse has some major hole in his training that if they are not worked out, will get you, him, and maybe someones else hurt. Check out "John Lyons On Horses" conditioned responce training book. Handles all problems in a step by step approach that are easy to follow and WILL WORK if done with patience and persistance. You just have to be willing to put in some time now, which in his words, saves much time in the end. And in my words, a willingness to step back to the beginning and fill in the gaps will result in a horse who will be a joy to ride each and every time.

Any disobedience in a horse is due only to a lack of training. Their golf ball sized brains just cannot plot and plan against us. They just respond to what they know or don't know. It's the don't know that causes problems.

Best wishes....


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Oh yes, the mounting battle... my Arab always tried to run off as I mounted. I would dismount. And circle. Until she stood still when I got on. It was quite the battle of wills, but I had to make sure I won. To the day she died she would always give a buck when I rode too. Which got her more circles. Lol!


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## MCJam (Dec 27, 2012)

Sounds like you need to go back to some basics. This horse has some major hole in his training that if they are not worked out, will get you, him, and maybe someones else hurt. Check out "John Lyons On Horses" conditioned responce training book. Handles all problems in a step by step approach that are easy to follow and WILL WORK if done with patience and persistance. You just have to be willing to put in some time now, which in his words, saves much time in the end. And in my words, a willingness to step back to the beginning and fill in the gaps will result in a horse who will be a joy to ride each and every time.

Any disobedience in a horse is due only to a lack of training. Their golf ball sized brains just cannot plot and plan against us. They just respond to what they know or don't know. It's the don't know that causes problems.

Best wishes....


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

This is the first time I've ever dismounted and led - there were 3 vehicles waiting patiently and I was so embarrassed I couldn't even think. 

What I would have done if they hadn't been there was to kick him hard to go forward or even try the reins to the butt, but there's so much drama going on here in horse land and I didn't know who it was in the vehicles. There are some around here who would have called the authorities and accused me of abuse if I'd kicked him too hard or used the reins on his butt. It's totally ridiculous.

We need way more riding time, that's the main problem I think. It's hard because I don't have anyone to ride with and I'm still a beginner. I'd load him up and take him on some different trails if someone would go with me. Also I just don't have the experience to really know how hard to push him and I don't have the coordination to figure out how to control him when he's acting up while my phone's in my hand.

I finally got a good instructor/trainer but she doesn't bring her horse. I'm going to have to see if maybe I can bring him to her place and we can ride some trails together.

One of the people who saw us Facebooked me. She is much more experienced than me and she says her horse and her fiance's horse both act up at that same spot every single time they go there. After she said that it occurred to me that the mare I used to ride acted up in that spot too. I wonder what it could be?

We live in the woods surrounded by national forest and there are a lot of hunting camps. I wonder if somebody's baiting bear there or something?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

After the incident, I took him quite some distance down a trail in the forest and he was as good as gold for me. He had tree branches rubbing his sides and tall weeds brushing his belly. He went through a ditch full of water and up and down little hills. Obeyed me very well. He doesn't really move when I mount. He used to but we worked on that for a long time. I'm just so dumb sometimes - on the trail it's hard to figure out what to stand on and how to get him lined up just right. At the barn I make him stand still and bring the bucket to him but on the trail none of the things I can stand on are moveable and he always stands kitty cornered to everything. I went to stand on what I thought was a stump but it was an ant hill. That was fun. Finally I got him standing over a log that had fallen across the trail - with his front legs in front of it and his back legs in back of it and I got on that way.

ETA - Oh, and my instructor took us back to the basics. We spent hours on respect and groundwork, lots of time in the arena etc. She basically pretended like I had never seen a horse before and started from day 1. She's great and I'm positive if she was with me she would have been able to tell me what to do. We're to the point now where I just call her if I run into an issue I can't solve and then she'll come and work with me just on that one issue. I might have to call her on this one.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Snake den maybe. I'm being serious. My mare stopped dead mid gallop with me once. I flew over her head, still holding the reins. She dragged me back several feet, and I thought she was trying to run off. Finally my back hurt so bad I let go. I lay there and cried, sure she was long gone.
When I got up she was right beside of me. I looked ahead. A coiled copperhead was in the road a few feet from where I'd landed. She hadn't been running out. She had protected us both, even dragged me back away from it and then stood with me.
Never underestimate their sixth sense and power of smell.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Also, you're never gonna get complete obedience, if you did your horse wouldn't have personality. That's part of what makes them fun. Just gotta pick your battles.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

What a story, handymama! I'm glad you weren't hurt and thank God your horse was looking out for you! 

The lady who put a lot of Al's training on him when he was younger was talking to me one day. It's funny - everyone who's owned him has regretted selling him and wanted to buy him back. Anyway, she was saying that they encountered a bear on the trail one day and all he did was stop and stand still, prick his ears, and snort. He's not really spooky at all. He's a good horse, really. My instructor says she would have snatched him up in a heartbeat if she'd noticed he was up for sale again. I got him from a lady who bought him for her daughter when her daughter was majorly into horses, then the daughter turned 16 and noticed boys and got her drivers license and didn't ride him anymore.

ETA - my instructor just messaged me. She thinks it might be a bear trail there. I did see a very large bear in that vicinity a few times. Not recently. I didn't realize bears usually travel the same trails. It makes sense.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Well trained horses have personality, no horse is perfect, but an ill trained one will hurt you.

Handymama, I highly doubt your mare "saved you." What she did was out of instinct, she saw the snake and stopped so she wasn't near it, the dragging you part was the fact that you still had the reins and she wanted to get away from the snake.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Then why stand with me when I had let go? She should've took off like a shot I would think.
Either way, it's what I choose to believe. I sure miss her.
I guess my point is yes, a horse should be well trained and not act up all the time. But they aren't machines, they do have off days where they will test your limits.
I'm by no means an expert. I've just had my own little rebel to deal with, lol!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

handymama said:


> Then why stand with me when I had let go? She should've took off like a shot I would think.
> Either way, it's what I choose to believe. I sure miss her.
> I guess my point is yes, a horse should be well trained and not act up all the time. But they aren't machines, they do have off days where they will test your limits.
> I'm by no means an expert. I've just had my own little rebel to deal with, lol!


Your mare must have thought she was far enough away from the snake...


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Fine with me. Worked out for both of us. Other than my butt being very sore, lol


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

You have a lot of things to try because you know where it's going to happen. You know the spot so try to engage his mind ahead of the location so that he is occupied mentally before he gets there. My favorite things was leg yield. It not only changes where he looks and occupies his feet but he has to pay attention to you. 
Almost every young horse I ever owned spent a lot of time going sideways on the road.
Just don't wait, frozen, for something to happen. Take action before it happens.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Maybe we should start trotting ahead of time and trot right through it?

I need to find a way to carry a bucket with me too, or a step stool that collapses.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Maybe. It may work. Or he may stop dead. Dunno til you try.
Try not to be nervous when you get close to the spot. Makes them nervous too in my experience.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

fffarmergirl said:


> Maybe we should start trotting ahead of time and trot right through it?
> 
> I need to find a way to carry a bucket with me too, or a step stool that collapses.


I wouldn't think that would succeed. You'll just have a more sudden stop. I thinking more redirecting the mind. 
The worst time I ever had was a mare that in my arrogance I told her owner I could get through the gate. Well, we did but it was by going backwards. That mare was like to kill us both.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

How do you redirect their mind? What do you mean by leg yield? I know how to use my legs to direct him which direction to turn but I don't think that's what you mean.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

I ride here both with a cell and a walkie talkie. Mr neurotic took a bit of convincing that a crackling walkie wasn't going to eat him. If you are getting reactions to it don't do what I do and just ride through it make sure you spend enough time on the ground on the phone that you KNOW the horse is fine with it. I'm with wr here pretty much.


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

fffarmergirl; You might try focusing your mind on a spot past the trouble spot. Your body can telegraph what you are thinking and a sensitive horse will pick that up and react to it. My dressage instructor (from a lifetime ago) always told us to think past our problem areas-she said that was where the 'throw your heart over' came from in jumping. You might have felt embarrassed but remember there isn't a single horseman who hasn't been through something similar.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

fffarmergirl said:


> How do you redirect their mind? What do you mean by leg yield? I know how to use my legs to direct him which direction to turn but I don't think that's what you mean.


A leg yield is the lowest level of lateral movement. Basically you're asking him to move sideways without bending. He needs some work beforehand but it is easy to learn and keeps his mind on you. And I've used it many times on the trail with various horses.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

I agree with WR. And, even though an instructor had you go back to the basics, you still need work on the basics. FORWARD is a basic, in fact, the very first and most important thing to teach a horse. If you don't have forward, you have nothing. Backing is an evasion, and it drives me nuts when people use backing as a punishment (backing a horse down the barn aisle for an offence, for example), because you're teaching the horse to back when he thinks of doing something naughty.

Anyway, go back to basics (again, and for a while). Even Olympic riders work on the basics ALL THE TIME, so don't feel like you're not progressing in your riding if you're working on basics.

And here's a good video about leg yielding:

[YOUTUBE]1HcA5bw2Pqs[/YOUTUBE]


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

fffarmergirl said:


> How do you redirect their mind? What do you mean by leg yield? I know how to use my legs to direct him which direction to turn but I don't think that's what you mean.


fffarmergirl, you need your instructor to teach you how to leg your horse, trying to figure it out from a video of a well trained rider and horse won't do much for you. If your trainer hasn't started you back at the basics, get a different trainer! You need to start from the ground and go up, not from the saddle and get hurt. I am saying this to help you, not make you feel bad or wrong. We ALL had to learn things at some point 

As for other horses reacting to that spot, it could well be there is something lurking in the woods that your horses' excellent sense of smell and hearing is detecting that you can't see or hear. Trust your horse, but not by yielding to his fear. He has to think YOU are right about not being in that area, not that he is getting you to let him go home. 

Anyway, I won't say anything else because apparently I don't give good or proper advice since there is usually a battle when I answer questions like this, which is why I took so long to answer! But I do believe you and your horse will be better off getting a solid trainer who can surmise the problem and help you overcome it with proper training


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

aoconnor1 said:


> Anyway, I won't say anything else because apparently I don't give good or proper advice since there is usually a battle when I answer questions like this, which is why I took so long to answer! But I do believe you and your horse will be better off getting a solid trainer who can surmise the problem and help you overcome it with proper training


It's just the nature of this particular forum, although it think it's a pretty common horse people issue. There is so much indignant assertion. A sense of black and white. 

You just have to either shrug it off or stand your ground. But I do understand the reluctance to say anything because you just know, know, know it will be an opportunity to get chewed on.

But sometimes that's acceptable. Especially in the cases where people who are newbies or timid get driven off .


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> This is the first time I've ever dismounted and led - there were 3 vehicles waiting patiently and I was so embarrassed I couldn't even think.
> 
> What I would have done if they hadn't been there was to kick him hard to go forward or even try the reins to the butt, but there's so much drama going on here in horse land and I didn't know who it was in the vehicles. There are some around here who would have called the authorities and accused me of abuse if I'd kicked him too hard or used the reins on his butt. It's totally ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I doubt if anybody would report you but even if they did, making a horse do what's required is not abuse and it sounds to me like you're justifying and someone else having problems in a spot is just an excuse. You need to find someone who will help you before you end up getting hurt.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I get the impression that the trainer I hired is good and solid and really knows what she's talking about. I have absolutely no doubt she'd be able to teach me what to do. She has to travel to get here and has a minimum charge. I just don't want to have to drop $50 every time I run into an issue. 

It's one thing to work with a horse in an arena with a trainer watching me and something else entirely to go riding alone out of the arena. She doesn't bring a horse so we can't go on the trail together. The person I board with says if I keep riding him in the arena he's going to get sour to it so I need to take him on the trail more.

I'd like to be able to get free advice once in a while, and if his behavior is some sort of signal that I'm about ready to get hurt then I will just have to quit riding him for a few weeks . . . AGAIN . . . . but doing so would really get in the way of us getting much riding in at all.

If I only ride when I can afford to have a trainer with me there are going to be very very few wet saddle blankets. That's for sure.

He has never threatened to buck, but I'm hesitant to really kick him hard because I'm not positive he wouldn't buck if I did. Do you think he would? He's not a young or reactive horse - he's a pretty laid back guy according to people who know horses better than I do. He never acted like this in front of the trainer or she would have told me what to do. I tried turning him in circles - we were circling down the road making very slow progress when we got surrounded by the unexpected audience.

The trainer did mention a couple of times that I might want to get some "bumpers" on my boots. She said they work kind of like spurs. She said some horses who have been used by people who kick them too hard too often get pretty immune to heels on their sides and need to be kicked harder than others. Maybe she had an idea he might do this....she says he's a bossy old gelding who has a lot of tricks up his sleeve.

I'm planning to ride him Friday and Sunday and won't be able to get bumpers before then. I don't want another experience like the last one.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh and when I see her I will ask her to teach me to leg him.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Out of pure curiosity, how big is he? What breed did you say he was?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

He's about 14'3 and really wide. Quarter horse, like 75% foundation bred or something like that. Heavy bones. Sometimes people think he has some draft in him but he's aqha. I will have to post a pic. I got him for my husband, actually, when I was riding a horse that was much more fun and forward. People said he would make a good husband horse and he is much better with men. He doesn't seem to care much for women but he really had been much better since I started lessons. He is beautiful but I wouldn't have got him for myself.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

How did you end up with him then? What kind would you have preferred?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Here he is acting up for my husband. DH is even less experienced than me. And here's a picture of the reason I need to learn to ride well. I want to be able to ride ons when she gets old enough but I don't know if I will ever get there.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I was looking for a beginner friendly horse and a couple people recommended him. I really liked the mare I was riding. She was so responsive. She would go anywhere. She loved yo trot. She would trot for miles. Unfortunately I was only leasing her and she is not for sale. She was too much horse for me anyway. She was so great, though. I would only have to barely touch her to make her go, and she loved to go out alone. I ended up with Al when Zippy's owner decided to breed her and my husband made it clear that he really isn't all that into horses. I figured I have to ride Al or sell him because I'm not about to keep a horse that won't be used.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

He doesn't seem big enough to be very intimidating. I was just curious.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

You're making me want to ride again lol and it's been years. Every time I get on a horse now my knee kills me. And it wouldn't be the same without my girl. Sigh.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

You ever been on a horse that bucked?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

this is making you want to ride again? LOL

Yes, zippy bucked. I got tricked into riding her, actually. The owner told me she was a seasoned trail horse. Only after I went on the trail with her, the truth came out. I unwittingly took her on her second ever trail ride. Turns out I was lied to. She was only green broke. I kept riding her anyway but the more I rode her the more fit she got. She bucked on the trail a few times but I didn't fall off. Then one day I went to get on her when it was muddy and my foot started slipping in the stirrup when I was mounting and she went rodeo crazy. I got up and got back on her but that was when I realized I needed better lessons than what my friend was giving me, so I hired someone. My "friend" didn't like it that I hired someone else so she turned around and bred zippy without even telling me, so I couldn't ride her anymore. So now I'm stuck with Al. I'm sure I will learn to like him. He's growing on me a little. And we are building our own facilities to keep my horses here, and Ona is going to stay with a trainer for the winter.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

How long did you ride for?


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Since I was little a kid til I was in my late teens. Had knee surgery and it seemed to just make things worse lol. 
I kinda like a bit of a fight. Guess I'm a weirdo. My first pony would run under trees trying to drag me off or lay down with me on his back and roll over. He also had a very hard mouth. He and my mare were like night and day. All she wanted was to run, all he wanted was a nap! Lol


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah riding definitely puts pressure on the knees. I have one of those heavy duty articulated knee braces that I got when I tore my ACL and MCL many years ago. I don't have to use it any more but it was very supportive. Maybe you could ride in something like that. You can bend your knee in it.

I'm a weirdo too. I don't know enough about horses but I would much rather get a little adrenaline rush than be bored. If they weren't so dang big and dangerous or I was younger I would just go for the gusto. Unfortunately I have learned the hard way that I have to be more careful. 

My ultimate dream would be to do endurance rides. I wouldn't have to win, just finish in one piece.

May I ask what became of your mare?


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

She died when she was 25. Suspected cause was EPM. She was a dream. Did Hunter pleasure, western, and barrel racing. Was in the half Arabian registry, three quarters Arab and a fourth appaloosa.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

EPM? She sounds wonderful and 25 is a nice old age. I bet she was hot


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

You know what EPM is? That weird virus that they get from opossums that affects their nervous system? Her back legs started gradually not working and I would have to keep getting neighbors to help me get her back up. It got pitiful to where she had no quality of life anymore and we had to put her down. Bloodwork found the EPM.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh that's awful. What a terrible way to lose her


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I was a bit tricked with her too in a good way. Got her in mosheim TN from some ******** who rode her with spurs. All she ever wanted to do was run, so why he did I'll never know.
Got her back home and she started doing this fancy hunter pleasure dancy thing with a beautiful headset when I tried a sitting trot.
Then we went in a ring where some barrels had been set up from a class earlier and she scared the bejesus outta me by flying around the barrels soon as she saw them.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

We're you already a pretty good rider by then? I don't know if this is stupid or not but DH brought me some barrels today. I was thinking Al might like to just trot around them, give him something to work his little walnut brain?


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I'd been riding for seven years and was fourteen.The trainer at my stable was thrilled with me and wanted me to compete in barrel racing locally but more lessons weren't something my parents could afford. They didn't even have a horse van.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Could help with his flexibility and keep him sharp. How old is he, he ever been around barrels before?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

To be fourteen and fearless again  too bad you couldn't do it back then. You did go on to other things with her though. he is twelve and I don't think he has been around them. He seems to enjoy tight turns but idk if he would want to go fast. He is pretty lazy which is I guess what people mean by "beginner safe". He has gotten less lazy. My instructor says he's moving faster for me because I'm getting more confident and he trusts me more.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

You could do barrels, figure eights, cavaletti.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I would not use spurs or "bumpers" unless I was sure I could control my legs, under all circumstances. If the horse does act up and your legs bang on his sides it may make things worse. I have always been told that a spur should be somewhat pointed so you can make an impression, just when and where you want to. A bumper or blunt spur will bruise and that will continue to hurt and get worse each time you use them. 
I would work in the arena or ride in a field (not one with horses or other stock in it)until both you and the horse know who is boss. If the horse gets ring sour you can worry about that when it happens. If you do enough different things in the ring it may help. If you need to use your phone on the trail and you know the horse doesn't like it, you will tense and make the horse tense. The same thing is true of a place you have had trouble with your horse. You need to have confidence in yourself and your horse has to be confident in you as well. Doing plenty of exercises in the ring will help that.

If you go out on the trail don't carry a step stool or bucket without practicing a lot in the ring. Your horse may take exception to either one banging on him. Practice mounting from the ground, maybe ask a PT for exercises to make mounting easier.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I gotta say I don't really get the whole he may get ring sour business. Have you longed him to bond with him? That was the most magical thing for me and Princess Sioux. That's when I first felt like we really connected.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Well it just happens I have a big nice new ring and a big field, so we are all set there. That is what I will do. I definitely learned control of my legs riding Zippy so there's a t least something I learned well. I don't want him to think he can get away with anything again and I'm tired of throwing both heels into him full force like Yosemite Sam on his mule so maybe I will see if anybody in town sells spurs.

When I'm on Al I picture that Yosemite Sam scene where he's on his mule and he's kicking him as hard as he can with both legs flying up in the air going "Yah! Yah, mule, Yah! When I say Yah I mean YAH!!" then the mule takes off and there's Sam yelling "WHOA! Whoa, mule, Whoa! When I say Whoa I mean WHOA!" then the mule stops and Sam goes flying over his head. Except instead of Yosemite Sam it's me, a 5'3" 180 lb big chested 44 year old nurse riding the mule. Sometimes the image gets me holding in my giggles so hard tears spring out of my eyes. I mean - seriously - what am I doing on a horse? In my head I'm the skinny 11 year old wh o just got her first pony but that's sure as heck not what I look like.

Before I got this trainer I was doing a lot of free longing in the round pen under the direction of my friend. The trainer had me stop, said until I get a better understanding of it I'm doing more harm than good.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I found a link to the first barrel pattern I want to try but lost the link! Good thing I memorized what it looked like. The trainer who posted it said they use it on every horse they start and that it works well because it teaches them to be very precise about turning the barrels and the pattern is small enough that the horse can't get going any faster than a trot on it.

The barrels are all only 45 feet apart and each barrel has tires 3 tires set up around it. The first tire, set up at the entry to the turn, is 8 feet away from the barrel. The second is 6 feet and the 3rd is 4 feet.

I think I'll go milk my goats then head in to Tractor Supply to see if they have any spurs. Somehow I doubt they will. Then I'll come home and set up my barrel pattern and head over to saddle up Al and ride him over here to my house to practice barrels.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Great lol. I'm loving the Yosemite Sam image...


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Why spurs rather than a crop? 

There used to be a little step stool on a string the Brenda Imus sold. It folded. You could use it to get a leg up then pull it up with the string and fold it and tie it to the saddle. I never saw one in reality so ?
But in my later years, all my horses were well versed in siddling up to stumps, picnic tables, rocks, sides of cliffs or ditches etc for me to use to get up. All learned to stand still for it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Why spurs rather than a crop?
> 
> There used to be a little step stool on a string the Brenda Imus sold. It folded. You could use it to get a leg up then pull it up with the string and fold it and tie it to the saddle. I never saw one in reality so ?
> But in my later years, all my horses were well versed in siddling up to stumps, picnic tables, rocks, sides of cliffs or ditches etc for me to use to get up. All learned to stand still for it.


Mine too. The stool might work but I always worry about extenders and extra stirrups because the folks that use them are usually inexperienced enough that they have a tendency to haul themselves up and horses and ultimately train the horse to become jittery over mounting because it's an uncomfortable experience.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think it is pretty easy to get hung up in the stirrup extenders I've seen.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

I have kept fairly quiet, but have to chime in on spurs. No trainer in their right mind, or who knows what they are doing, would tell an inexperienced rider with a "bossy gelding" to use any type of spur, regardless of it is nubs or rowels. That will land you on your butt in a bad place, and you could be seriously injured or worse. You said yourself that you aren't confident he won't buck if you press him, what makes you or your trainer think he won't dump you about the first time you stick him in the sides with a spur? Especially if he hasn't even had them used on him! 

There are SO many red flags about what you have posted that your trainer told you. I am concerned for you, please understand that much. I am trying to help, and there are things that bother me a LOT!! 

I will leave it alone for now, but please, be very careful taking that step to spurs.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I'll have to look for the step stool on a string. Thanks for mentioning it. I tried a crop one day but I just didn't have the coordination to hold it correctly while I was trying to handle the reins.

I got the spurs and also got barrels and set up the smaller barrel pattern, then went and got him and rode him to my house, did the barrel pattern about a dozen times and then when he was listening very well we went for a ride down the road.

I can absolutely understand why a person might be worried about spurs  Suddenly, Al is very responsive. It's a good thing I didn't kick him with them. I might have been in for the ride of my life. It turned out they worked very well. I used them very gingerly. He's about as responsive with spurs on as Zippy was without spurs, so now I feel like I have a horse I might really wind up liking.

We went a different direction than usual to avoid that bad spot in the road but we found another one and he got spooky and started turning around to head back to the barn. I'm positive I would not have been able to get him to listen to me if I hadn't had the spurs on. As it was, we got through it and kept going and I just couldn't be more happy. I feel like he's learning that I'm the boss now.

There's another spot near the barn where he often gives me trouble as we're leaving the yard. It was getting to the point that I was afraid one day he might win the battle and I wouldn't be able to get him to leave the yard. I avoided that spot leaving the barn today and just headed to my house across the field instead. On the way back, though, I took him past that spot and then I turned him around and made him go through it and head back down the road away from the barn. Then I turned him back and rode through it on the way to the barn again, then turned him around again and made him head down the road away from the barn. He didn't like it but he wasn't arguing with those spurs. I didn't have to use them hard at all but now he knows mama's got teeth and she'll use them.

I think things are going to work out fine with him and me. We just have to work through one problem at a time. I think we solved this one OK. I didnt' accidentally touch his sides with the spurs at all and we trotted, cantered a little, and did the barrel pattern. We'll be fine - I will ask for help and advice whenever I feel uncomfortable.

As far as the problem I have with mounting.....I'm thinking I need to find something horse height that I can mount a saddle on and just practice mounting over and over until I get those muscles strengthened and stretched.

Thanks, everybody.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm so glad the spurs helped! I was a bit concerned about them too...
This is ******* but I never used a crop as a kid on my pony, just cut a belt in two, punched a hole in both ends, put a leather strap thru the holes, and hung it around the saddle horn so I would have it handy if I needed it. Doesn't sound like you need it though.
Congratulations!


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Ok, glad it worked out. You are one lucky lady, he has to have had spurs on him before Seriously lucky!

But, it does sound very positive, and I am glad you two have a new understanding started. Take it easy, learn his reactions, and be ready to counter at a split seconds notice, and you two will be one awesome team.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Be very careful with spurs because novice riders tend to clamp up if they're nervous or expect something sudden from their horse. The response is usually undesirable.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

That is a great idea, handymama.

I'm also a little concerned that I might involuntarily clamp up if things got very exciting, but I'm in the habit of putting more weight straight down in the stirrups when I get nervous, instead of trying to hold on with my legs. Standing up very very slightly seems to help a lot when things get bumpy. He has an unusually bumpy trot so I've been riding in 3 point when we trot and that way my legs and arms don't move and I have a lot better balance and can steer better.

What I'm worried about is how the spurs seem to angle toward him when I'm riding comfortably. I have to consciously turn my toes in all the time. That's not terribly comfortable. It seems like the spurs should have to be deliberately turned toward him and angled a little more outward when my legs are relaxed .

He does something weird at those scary spots in the road. He tries to back down into the ditch when I ask him to go forward. It was scary yesterday when he did that because I was banging his side's really hard before I was able to get him to go forward out of the ditch. Today with the spurs I did have to apply a little pressure to keep him from going into the ditch, but it was not a fight at all. I could definitely see he was scared, but he listened to me and kept going. I don't know what he thinks he can accomplish by backing into a ditch anyway.

We do have an unusual amount of wildlife here. My friend had horses attacked by cougars, and people have seen them by our house. The stupid wolf worshipers have succeeded in putting a stop to the wolf hunt, and we have large black bears. So I can understand him being spooky now, during hunting season. The hunters at the camps nearby have been making a lot of noise sighting in their guns. But he needs to just get used to all that and trust me and I have to be a stronger leader.

Sorry for talking so much. I'm so excited to finally be figuring a few things out.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

My horse never could get used to guns. Every hunting season she would stay lathered and upset, running all over the pasture.
I am pretty sure a cougar attacked her once. She had weird large scratches going up her sides over her back, very deep. Almost like something dropped down from a tree on her. And I've heard them scream at night.
Game warden says there aren't any here. I've seen a pic one guy took out of his window of one, less than a mile away.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah someone started firing about 1/4 mile away and he didn't seem terribly nervous but he knew where that sound was coming from and even thirty minutes later he did not want to go anywhere near that area.

We have had so many confirmed sightings that the DNR doesn't bother denying it. When people get pictures of them on their deer cams they are on the news. Lots of big cougars. Somebody saw one snatch a little fawn right in front of our house many years ago before we moved here. About two or three years ago several different people, at different times, stopped to tell us they had seen a juvenile cougar near our house. And we found a dead deer on our shed roof abut ten years ago. I heard one scream once. And I have seen very large black bears within less than a mile from our house about 5 times in ten years. The dogs have been very relaxed so I really don't think we have had any in our yard in many years.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm at the edge of the Cherokee National Forest, and I've seen bobcat and black bears here. They generally run off. I'm not so sure a cougar would though.
Him going in a ditch would really scare me, mainly because i'd be afraid he would fall. Does he see the ditch and just decide to hop into it, or stumble around and end up in it?


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Likey your new pic btw!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

He backs down into it deliberately. Hiding?


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Probably lol.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

fffarmergirl said:


> He backs down into it deliberately. Hiding?


Being a butt!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> this is making you want to ride again? LOL
> 
> Yes, zippy bucked. I got tricked into riding her, actually. The owner told me she was a seasoned trail horse. Only after I went on the trail with her, the truth came out. I unwittingly took her on her second ever trail ride. Turns out I was lied to. She was only green broke. I kept riding her anyway but the more I rode her the more fit she got. She bucked on the trail a few times but I didn't fall off. Then one day I went to get on her when it was muddy and my foot started slipping in the stirrup when I was mounting and she went rodeo crazy. I got up and got back on her but that was when I realized I needed better lessons than what my friend was giving me, so I hired someone. My "friend" didn't like it that I hired someone else so she turned around and bred zippy without even telling me, so I couldn't ride her anymore. So now I'm stuck with Al. I'm sure I will learn to like him. He's growing on me a little. And we are building our own facilities to keep my horses here, and Ona is going to stay with a trainer for the winter.


You should consider your legal options if someone bred you horse to prevent you from using her, especially if it was done with malice.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

No one needs friends like that. 
If you own or are leasing Zippy, you should be able to trail ride her until she gets pretty big. We showed and cut with mares until fall and did our normal winter layoff, then didn't take them until their foal was weaned, although many just take the foal along. As long as they are in good condition, you can ride them until the last couple of months of their pregnancy, if they are used to being ridden it won't hurt them or the foal.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

yeah - the friendship has definitely been affected by the Zippy deal. I was free leasing her from my friend, with the agreement that I'd show the horse for her in exchange for being able to trail ride her whenever I wanted. We didn't have a contract. I actually put $ into getting 30 days put on her, too. 

She needed her teeth floated so I was actually just riding her in a nonmechanical hack. I wasn't about to pay to have her teeth floated because I had an inkling my friend might be thinking of breeding her, and then next year she'd be a pain in the butt to ride because she'd always be wanting to go back to her baby.

Our agreement was she'd have the teeth floated and I'd show her in walk trot this year. Then she bred her and she said she couldn't have her teeth floated because she couldn't have a sedative while she was in foal, which meant I wasn't going to be able to start using a bit on her . . . . which meant she couldn't be shown.

She said I could keep riding her but I wasn't about to continue riding her in a hack without lessons. Although she always obeyed me on the dirt road, I felt like I needed more confidence. I never would have taken her where she might have run me under tree branches, and not in an open field. I'm sure no instructor would want to teach me on a young horse without me using a bit. I was inexperienced enough that I wasn't really even sure if she was as hot as I thought she was. I always had a feeling she was just looking for an opportunity to take off at a full-out gallop, although she never did. We usually rode 5 miles and we trotted about 4 of those miles. We both enjoyed the trotting. I had to be very careful not to let my heels touch her, though. Then one of my friends who barrel races got on her and said "holy cow. This horse is hot." She might have put a bug in my friend's ear about that, maybe warned her that Zippy was more horse than I could handle. Sometimes I feel like my friend has a death wish for me, but she doesn't ride anymore so maybe she really didn't realize. I'm wondering if she just didnt' want to tell me she didn't think it was safe for me to ride the horse, so she bred her to avoid talking about it. We've only been friends for about 2 years and I still don't understand her sometimes - she's an odd duck when it comes to communicating.

It's all good, though - I just won't buy or lease or ride any of her horses. She has a different definition of "broke" and "experienced" than I do. She has mentioned many times that she wants me to start putting time on some of her other horses who have been trained in the past but rarely get ridden. I don't know where she gets the idea that I'm capable of doing that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm not sure what difference you feel a bit makes. As a rule, horses out size and out power a human by quite a bit and sawing on their mouth will very likely not stop a horse any better than a mechanical hack. 

I'm not sure you're being fair to your friend either. She isn't here to defend herself and if I'm not mistaken you very headstrong at that time insisted the green broke horse was within your budget and you were very certain you could work out the kinks in the round pen. 

If I am thinking of someone else, I apologize but I'm just not a big fan of tearing someone down without giving them the opportunity to explain their side of things.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wr I'm not sure if you're thinking of someone else or if maybe I misworded something or you misinterpreted me in the past, but I definitely did not insist on getting Zippy. I just trusted my friend's judgment and rode the horse that she recommended for me to ride. I remember at the time I was very reluctant to ride Zippy because people on here (I'm pretty sure you were one of them but not positive) were telling me that she was too young and I was too inexperienced and there was no way she was a "been there done that" horse. My friend continued to really encourage me to ride her. So I put lots and lots of time into her and stopped posting on this forum because I felt bad about asking for your advice and then not taking it. 

I'm glad I did put the time into her, I'm just bitter and confused about what happened. I don't know if you remember the rest of the story which I haven't got into on this thread but you were basically saying "red flag! red flag! Stop before you get hurt!" My friend (why don't I just start calling her "Betty" which is not her real name) had about 10 horses in the pasture where Zippy was kept and she buddied up with this mustang gelding and they started breaking fences and running around together so Betty started locking Zippy up in a stall while continuing to give her grain. Then every time I would go to ride her I'd find she'd been in a stall for an entire day or two, which made her very hot. So then Betty would have me longe her for a long time before getting on her, in an attempt to get rid of excess energy, but I'm positive now that the way she had me longeing her so fast was making her even more energetic. So she was just this ball of energy. Then I went to mount her and my foot slipped and she started bucking like a rodeo bronco and bucked me off. I got on here and tried to get advice, tried to get a feel for whether it was me doing something wrong and not understanding Betty or what the heck was going on. Everybody on here basically told me I needed to stop boarding my horses with Betty and stop taking her advice but I kept defending her because she's the only real horse person who has the time to spend with me and who is willing to do so. 

This forum and Betty are pretty much all I have had besides my instructor. I will admit I did not choose the instructor but she was the only instructor Betty would allow in her barn. I had hired someone else but after the first lesson Betty said she wasn't welcome there and said I could hire her best friend or nobody. It turns out her best friend is as different from Betty as night and day - very quiet and just excellent with the horses. I really like her so far.

So you're saying a bit is not necessary. There must be two schools of thought. I don't belong to any school of thought on it, I just don't know who to listen to and went with the majority who were saying you can't ride without a bit. Betty was fine with me using a hack but she's the only one who said it was OK.

We're not allowed to show here without a bit and in order for me to keep my end of the bargain I was supposed to show Zip for Betty. I don't know if that's how it is everywhere or just here. 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter I guess. It's water under the bridge. Please realize, though - Betty, her friend the trainer, and the people on this forum have been my only sources of advice. 

I am taking Ona out of Betty's barn tomorrow and bringing her to live with a different trainer "Jaime" and she's going to be started in the spring. Jaime's mother is well known around here although I've never met her. They show world wide and I have seen Jaime teaching at a number of clinics. She's not allowed in Betty's barn, of course - and Betty's not allowed at her barn, which means I have to use Jaime's farrier.......

Horse people. I swear.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Horse people are not usually like Betty, especially if they are professional. I think Betty is either has some real problems or she never grew up. I have always questioned her knowledge. She does some things that point to a lack of experience, to say the least. Owning horses and reading books or going to clinics does not make you a horseman. Of course, I'm judging on your comments--I might be wrong. Just your story about Zippy makes no sense, had you been hurt badly, she could lose everything she owns. I can't believe a horseman would do what she did, it's not fair to you or the horse, and could have been a disaster. I would take anything she says with a grain of salt.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> So you're saying a bit is not necessary. There must be two schools of thought. I don't belong to any school of thought on it, I just don't know who to listen to and went with the majority who were saying you can't ride without a bit. Betty was fine with me using a hack but she's the only one who said it was OK.
> 
> We're not allowed to show here without a bit and in order for me to keep my end of the bargain I was supposed to show Zip for Betty. I don't know if that's how it is everywhere or just here.


I'm not sure where you get the idea that there's two schools of thought on bits and I also get the impression you don't fully understand how a proper fitting hackamore even works. If your horse is comfortable and responsive in a hack, what would suggest that uncomfortable in a bit will make a better horse? I'm not advocating everyone go throw out their bits tomorrow but I am questioning your belief that a horse has to be ridden with a bit. 

You were hung up on the show ring for a while and there certainly are parameters required for showing but as far as using a horse for pleasure, there are plenty of options that achieve the same results. 

A horse should not be stopping, reining or working by bit alone and responds to various cues and in my opinion, if you can't stop one with a hack, you aren't going to get it stopped with a bit.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I believe that young and green horses can be shown in a bosel, unless the rules have changed recently.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I just can not imagine being a horse professional for 30+ years, breeding, boarding etc. and not being a wealth of knowledge. I've heard people say you can have 30 years of experience or you can have one year of experience 30 times. I've thought that about her a few times. 

On the other hand, she's not the one that wants to ride. Why should she know a lot about training and riding? She's worried about breeding and that's pretty much it. She does breed some nice horses and she understands more about nutrition, health care etc. She really does know a lot about the health care end of it and she has saved me a whole lot of money on that. She knows how to make the horses respect her on the ground. We just have different goals and when it comes to me riding, her goal is to get me to show her horses so people will see how pretty they are and want to buy her babies. My goal is just to ride.

I feel bad about moving my horses but I'm moving so I can meet my goal of riding them. Maybe I can make it up to her by spreading the word about her beautiful stallion and getting her more breedings.

WR I'm pretty sure you're right about what I don't know about hackamores and bits. Al came with a hack and my instructor did have me start using a bit on him and he does better with the bit, but she was very careful about fitting it and he doesn't mind it at all. He does respond better in the bit than he did in the hack but who knows - maybe the hack didn't fit right. 

I was hung up on the show ring when the only horse I had was only good for show and not ready to be trained for anything else. What else was I supposed to do with her until she turned three? Now that I have Al to ride - why would I want to have to follow show ring rules and put myself and my horse out there to be judged? When Ona's old enough to be started I'm going to have a lot of stuff to do with her that will be a heck of a lot more fun than showing her. I just hope I'll have the necessary skills and experience to ride her when the time comes. 

There's nothing wrong with showing young horses. It helps to desensitize them and gets them used to being clipped and bathed and loaded and tied etc. etc.

I was talking to someone today who said the spurs are like training wheels in the sense that if you try not to use them at all and only depend on them when you absolutely have to, pretty soon you'll be riding without them. I hope that's the case because I don't want to have to use them. I won't accidentally cause harm with the bit - I won't accidentally pull on it or anything. I worry because it's possible to accidentally cause harm to myself or the horse with spurs. I heard about a horse falling on the rider and the spur going deep into the horse's belly. 

Totally off subject - I got invited to use an indoor arena this winter. :banana::banana: I think they invited me because they want me to board Al there and I'm not sure I would feel right about doing that to Betty, but I'm thinking maybe I can get a lot of practice loading him up and bringing him there frequently and make it worth it to them by helping with cleaning stalls or something.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Betty is not your 'friend.' Friends don't lie to you about the training of a horse they want you to ride. Putting you on a green horse without your knowledge could have gotten you seriously hurt or killed. Friends don't do that.

And the other stuff about breeding a horse so you can't ride her? She won't let you bring any instructor except the one she approves. Too controlling.

Take your horses to the new barn. I think you will find a lot less drama and you might just find some people to ride with. You don't have to burn bridges with Betty. Keep it friendly and tell her they fit what you are looking for in terms of instructors or whatever.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

DaniR1968 said:


> Betty is not your 'friend.' Friends don't lie to you about the training of a horse they want you to ride. Putting you on a green horse without your knowledge could have gotten you seriously hurt or killed. Friends don't do that.
> 
> And the other stuff about breeding a horse so you can't ride her? She won't let you bring any instructor except the one she approves. Too controlling.
> 
> Take your horses to the new barn. I think you will find a lot less drama and you might just find some people to ride with. You don't have to burn bridges with Betty. Keep it friendly and tell her they fit what you are looking for in terms of instructors or whatever.


I'm not sure about the green horse because we weren't there but but I am concerned about the other comments. 

Based on previous discussions, free lease is not quite the right term because there were no lease and it was more of a handshake deal, where both parties agree that in return for use, the user would pay for a few things. Betty did breed the mare and I'm not as sure she violated a lease nor am I convinced that she bred the mare with any intended malice. She is a breeder and the OP did say, she had an idea that Betty was going to breed the mare again and did not get her teeth floated. 

From a liability standpoint, I'm not keen on the idea of someone bringing another trainer into my facility and using my horses. I may not be as blunt as Betty but I train my horses and really don't want someone else using my site, my horses and my liability insurance. If someone gets hurt, it's me that takes the hit. 

Any horses the OP should probably go to a location that better suits her needs, like the barn where her current trainer is and there would be a lot less drama but I'm still convinced that Betty is a total idiot, control freak or a complete ogre.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

OP was the one who said Betty bred the mare so she (OP) couldn't ride her due to not being able to get her teeth floated. I was basing what I said about the subject on that. It's really a small thing compared to the rest of her post and previous posts. 

As for the instructor, it doesn't sound like Betty is worried about liability because she would allow her friend to come and give OP lessons but no one else. Maybe she knows friend has her own liability insurance? To me it came off as more of a control thing. I have also gotten the impression from things OP has posted that Betty has a reputation, and not a good one. I could be wrong.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

DaniR1968 said:


> OP was the one who said Betty bred the mare so she (OP) couldn't ride her due to not being able to get her teeth floated. I was basing what I said about the subject on that. It's really a small thing compared to the rest of her post and previous posts.
> 
> As for the instructor, it doesn't sound like Betty is worried about liability because she would allow her friend to come and give OP lessons but no one else. Maybe she knows friend has her own liability insurance? To me it came off as more of a control thing. I have also gotten the impression from things OP has posted that Betty has a reputation, and not a good one. I could be wrong.



Betty could be a howling nightmare to deal with and I've met a few over the years but over the course of several similar conversations, I get the impression that these two may not speak the same language. 

My only concern is that it's easy to trash someone who has been in the business for 30 years but probably a better idea to converse in such a way that they can defend their own actions. 

If I loaned a horse and one of the conditions was teeth floating and it didn't happen, I would find another situation for the horse. It was agreed to by both parties and I'm serious about how a horse is cared for. Someone else may see it as a non urgent issue. 

Thirty years is a long time to be in the horse industry and it takes a long time to build a reputation but a few comments on the Internet can destroy someone in hours.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Bettywanthorrible reputation. I have a strong tendency to defend under dogs and i have gone way out of my way to try to defend her reputation locally. because of her reputation she often gets accused of things that are not true but she is her own worst enemy. she has been so controlling. it is her barn and her way or the highway. there is not one single reputable horse professional who will have anything to do with her. her feelings get so hurt because she never gets invited to anything but when she does go somewhere she behaves badly. she breeds some nice horses but she has to sell them for cheap because nobody trusts her. i would never have got into horses if it hadn't been for her and i feel really bad that she won't be getting board money for Ona now but it was such a relief to bring Ona to the new place yesterday. I'm keeping Al with her for now because i ride him and don't want to have to drive to him but I'm going to have a plan B soon. I'm going to ride with a group that boards at a place with an indoor arena, which would really be nice in the winter. I'm thinking it might be nice to have my horses here in the summers and there in the winters once Ona is trained.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

oh and i had never agreed to pay to float those teeth. i considered offering but thought better of it


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

fffarmergirl said:


> oh and i had never agreed to pay to float those teeth. i considered offering but thought better of it


I am only going to say this about the float thing...if you were "free leasing" my horse and knew it needed a float but didn't bother to get he/she floated because you "thought" I was going to breed the horse or whatever, I would not leave my horse with you or allow you near it again. Being a horsewoman means you get the teeth floated if you are riding the horse for free, just because they need to be floated, not on the condition that I don't do something in the future with said horse. If, as the owner, I saw that playing out with one of my own horses, which I don't ever, ever lease to anyone for any reason, I would pull that horse back and do whatever was necessary to keep it out of your hands for good. 

I am not saying anything to be mean, but neither of you handled that situation professionally, and the mare is now bred (which, shame on Betty for breeding a mare with teeth that needed floating), and unable to be comfortable in her mouth for a very long time. I would be hellaciously mad at both of you. 

I don't know Betty, but that little tidbit of information about the teeth float issue you shared told me pretty much all I need to know about the whole situation.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

i was a rank beginner and she sold me a six month old filly. she swore to me that if i bought that filly and boarded it with her she would provide me with a beginner friendly horse to ride and promised me that when my filly got old enough to ride i would be skilled enough to ride her. instead she lied and provided me with a green broke hot horse, kept her in a stall, fed her grain, and encouraged me to ride her. she refused to allow me to get lessons on her. i was not about to float her freaking teeth.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Ok, then you gave her back the horse and should be done with it all. Lesson learned. I simply gave my opinion and think what I think


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I know people like her. She is not as knowledgeable as she would like you to think. She wants to be seen as an expert, but she isn&#8217;t really. She knows more than a beginner, but she tries to pass herself off as something she isn&#8217;t.

As to bits and bitless, whether or not your horse is required to be in a bit is dependent on what you are doing. Sometimes what they mean is &#8216;no halters&#8217; but you can show in any bridle that you want. More and more people are using cross under bridles, and they show in them. You can even ride a horse with no headstall, but you&#8217;ll have a hard time finding a trainer. It&#8217;s all about training, not bit, or type of bit, or other equipment. As I&#8217;ve written before, I clicker trained my donkeys with a cross under bit. Of course, they are pretty smart.


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