# Can we talk about English shepherds?



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I lost my beloved Pit Bull last week. She started having a terrible cough in June that the vet originally treated as Kennel cough. The symptoms went away for a while but them came back. A chest xray showed she had a mass in her lungs. She went downhill pretty fast after that, and we finally had to put her down because she could not breath due to fluid in her lungs. The diuretics simply could not keep up. It was so sad and horrible. Hubby is taking it really, really hard....Bailey was his girl. 

So anyway, I think we need a new dog. Hubby agrees.....he needs another dog to bond with and we need a general all-around farm dog. I think the English Shepherd is the perfect breed for us. Tell me about your English Shepherd! I am looking for a dog whos a good watch dog, hangs around the house really well (although we are totally fenced in), loves his family and children but is wary of strangers, has enough coat to be comfortable outside in the winter, can help with the livestock on occasion, and is easy to train. From all I have read, English shepherd is the ideal breed.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I've heard great things about them, but don't know firsthand. I have to say that I am in love with my smooth collie puppy. Gosh she is smart! She has a coat more like a Shepherd, really easy care and enough to protect her. She's on the high end of collies for energy, keeps pretty busy, loves to learn and is overall a ton of fun! She comes from a line bred for versatility - show, obedience, herding, tracking and agility. My daughter has a smooth collie from show lines, she was a year old when we got her and she is very laid back and as sweet a dog as I can imagine. 

I suspect they are pretty similar in personality. I'd think an English Shepherd from working lines would be awesome - I had that in mind when I started looking for a puppy, but ended up finding a collie breeder first.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I love smooth collies, but hubby isn't real keen on the shape of a collie's head. He may like smooth ones though..I'll show him some pictures and see what he says. I know finding an English Shepherd in my area will be a lot easier. There are at least 3 good breeders within a 100 miles of me.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I thought the first smooth collie I saw was weird looking... hehe But I got used to them and now I really like them. I do like the more extreme head personally, but its her personality that I really like.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

keep in mind that the dog hubby just lost was a pit bull....so just about ANY head is going to be different for him. A Collie head may be TOO different. lol! I like the breeding ethic that most of the ES breeders I have talked to have. They are very against showing these dogs and many of the breeders won't even sell you a pup if you mention that you might like to show it. They want to preserve working ability. Many of them are health testing too, which is hugely important for me.


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## BlueCollarBelle (Oct 26, 2011)

My Bingo is wonderful! We only assume he is an English Shepherd, we didn't get him as a puppy. He's smart, fun, and very loving. He's a pet and doesn't have a job at our house. I think he would be a good 'nanny' for small livestock but he'd never make a guardian. 
That said, there is a huge variation in the breed. Bingo is a slightly chubby 50lbs, many are 60+. He wouldn't be a guardian but many are bred and raised for it. His only downfall is the shedding. He has a lovely coat that doesn't mat up at all but his undercoat sheds year round. Light hairs that our floor vents blow around the house maddeningly. 
Bingo will be 7 in December and had a clean vet check last month. He's not slowing down physically and mentally he's always been an old soul so I figure he'll be with us a long time yet.
I would recommend the breed to anyone. I adore him and have heard many people brag on their intelligence and eagerness to please 
Sorry to hear about your husband's pit. We have adopted a pit/boxer mix that my husband is attached to. If Zane is any representation of pit bulls we'll always have one!


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Our Z is 1/2 ES, 1/2 rough Collie, with the looks of the rough Collie. (See the thread on Barter Board from Saving Grace - she has 3/4 ES pups for sale).

Great family dog, very smart, very biddable, much like a middle child, he is the mediator if he senses tension. Has the instinct to herd (we have no training in it), seems more prone to herd bunnies than try to exterminate them, but does help us with herding up chickens and would train to cattle easily (has tried it). Likes to pounce after tiny varmints, haven't seen him catch one. We're not small game hunters, haven't tried hunting with him.

He has strong ideas about "who" is allowed around - "who" being not deer, not sandhill cranes or crows, not coyotes, not squirrels, bluejays took some time to decide. Song birds OK. Chases the "not allowed" to the property line (we are in one corner of the 40), and comes back. (We don't let him after the coyotes - they'd gang up on him.) Teenage chickens + teenage dog = too much fun for dog. He is fine, as are the chickens.

Not sure that his definition extends to people - hasn't met one yet he doesn't think is a new friend. Left alone outside, he has wandered - once got a call from the Vet's office - he was out hitchhiking and took a ride. He was about 18 mos old then, we haven't provided the opportunity since, except for ~ a sporadic hour here and there. (He was totally alone, no one inside or out...he hasn't wandered if someone is home inside...except to visit my MIL on adjacent 40)

He is definitely a thinker, definitely a "rule follower." Has been a great fit for us, and we heartily recommend to others.

I'm sorry about the passing of your beloved Pit. It is always hard.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> keep in mind that the dog hubby just lost was a pit bull....so just about ANY head is going to be different for him. A Collie head may be TOO different. lol! I like the breeding ethic that most of the ES breeders I have talked to have. They are very against showing these dogs and many of the breeders won't even sell you a pup if you mention that you might like to show it. They want to preserve working ability. Many of them are health testing too, which is hugely important for me.


Its just my opinion and I am sure I may upset some ES owners but it appears to me this breed is bred more as companion and not a working dog. There is a lot of "talk" about preserving working ability but not much testing or competition to evaluate dogs against each other or a common goal. Working ability to some is a dog that can actually herd, controls the stock, has natural talent and obeys commands. The hobby farmer/breeder most often calls dog chasing stock or just running through a field herding or working as the stock flees to the safety of its shelter. I would question just exactly how most these breeders decide a dog has a working temperament. It seems 95% of them don't compete in anything whether its show or trials, nor do they rely on their dogs for income or hard work which would cull the unfit ones right away. Because of the real loose standard of "work" in this breed there seems to be a tremendous variance in temperament and ability. I am sure they have a lot of desirable traits as pets though but wouldn't look at them if you really wanted a working dog. 

Examples of "working" as some breeders call it. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1OmQ8MvprY&feature=related]English shepherd herding alpacas - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34In3a1ihmA&feature=relmfu]English Shepherd rounding up the ewes - YouTube[/ame]

English Shepherd moving one animal - YouTube


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Jason, I agree with you that many of these dogs are being bred as companion animals only. I would only buy from a breeder who actuallly does work their dogs and who knows how evaluate young pups for herding instincts. I watched one of the videos. I think those dogs have the ability but lack the training to follow commands. The herding style of an ES is way different than that of a border collie. They do not stare down the stock as a BC does, they tend to be more of a heeling breed, very useful for cattle but also useful for sheep. I don't want other herding breeds because they are "on" all the time. They are very intense. ES's are not as intense and are quite capable of being good relaxed companions when they are off duty.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Jason, I took a look at the first video for a few minutes. Pretty obvious dog is wanting more direction from it's owner. I'd say owner not trained, either.

Our Z is learning hand signals, voice commands, and has his basic obedience. We have no training in herding, and I would never say he is a herder, but he has good herding instinct, is a great help, will "slow" and "wait", "bring" and "go around" as we direct him. 

Lack of competition doesn't mean lack of skill, and obviously, some breeders are keener about skill than others. Always ask for a demonstration of the dam's and/or sire's skills, right?


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Whoa - is that a dead sheep in the foreground of the second video?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

One thing I noticed in the last video is that the dog has an unsound rear - he has slipping hocks that make him stand with his hock completely straight to support his weight. When you pick a puppy of ANY breed, starting at 8 weeks of age, stand the puppy up square and gently push forward on the hock joint. You do not want a dog whose hocks will pop forward under those conditions. It destabilizes the whole rear end and causes the whole back to go out of line to compensate. That dog will not be as able to run, turn, stop and keep its balance around corners. While it may compensate, its not going to be a good candidate for any sort of hard work, agility, jumping, etc. and will be more likely to go lame and arthritic when its older. 

I have some Silkys with that problem, but they weigh 10 lbs and are not working dogs, not such a big deal, but does give them wobbly rears in the show ring, I bred and selected away from it once I learned what it was. 

I can't comment on the herding - very much outside of my field - but I would think that, if a dog can be taught be a novice owner to do the chores that are helpful around the farm, then its the dog that owner needs regardless of the actual herding ability or instinct.


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## finnsheep (May 23, 2012)

Chixarecute said:


> Whoa - is that a dead sheep in the foreground of the second video?


Sure looks like a "blown" ewe- and if it's not dead, I don't know why it would be in that position.


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## finnsheep (May 23, 2012)

Oh, okay- if you read the description under the video, they mention that they lost a ewe and the sheep are being taken off of wet ground.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I think I would wait to take video when you don't have dead livestock (or dying) in the picture. I would say that the dog looks like it wants to work, but looked a little scattered in how it rounded up the sheep and moved them. But, it may do an adequate job for its owner so all is good.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

No amount of training is going to put herding instinct/talent in those dogs on youtube. They show some weak prey drive, but are herding washouts. 
Maybe look into Chihuahuas? 
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1675240636963


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

You might be on to something, this chihuahua not only herds it scares off the black dog who wants to kill the sheep... 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCbWPea0pE]UK Shelter Shows Off Chihuahua-turned-sheepdog - YouTube[/ame]


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Papillons are good herding dogs, too, but usually it is ducks and not sheep.

I don't think "farm dogs" are intended to work sheep well enough to trial. If you want to compete in sheep dog trials, buy a border collie.

My German Shepherds worked as "farm dogs" and they could bring the sheep in, protect the farm, run off predators, let me know if anyone entered the property, kill rats, go riding with me, work the gun as a bird dog, and keep my feet warm at night. They also won obedience titles for me.

An English Shepherd should be able to fulfill all those farm dog jobs, even if it won't win at the top competition sheep dog trail. Of course, qualifying that: a _well bred_ English collie should make a good farm dog.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

JasoninMN said:


> You might be on to something, this chihuahua not only herds it scares off the black dog who wants to kill the sheep...
> 
> UK Shelter Shows Off Chihuahua-turned-sheepdog - YouTube


One time my neighbors were moving their Angus cattle down the road. I was so embarrassed as the Chihuahua mix ran right out barking up a storm and stopped them all in their tracks. They were not allowed past her house.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Smart, independent, and a touch bull headed, some can be very agressive about their home. They can be a one person dog.

Find an old timer that breeds them and uses them, don't be surprised if he tells you to stay in the car until he can introduce you to the dogs.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Papillons are good herding dogs, too, but usually it is ducks and not sheep.
> 
> I don't think "farm dogs" are intended to work sheep well enough to trial. If you want to compete in sheep dog trials, buy a border collie.


Herding breeds were originally intended to be "farm dogs". Over the years many breeders have bred for things other than working ability. Some breed primarily for the show ring, some for protection work, obedience, pets, etc. It only takes one generation to lessen the working ability. Think about these dogs that have been bred for years as pets. Dogs that trial on weekends are tested outside of their comfort zone on sheep that hopefully aren't used to a routine. This is a great test of how the dog deals with various situations on different stock. A few weeks ago I was asked to work at a trial with my dogs . The sheep had only been worked by a dog once to haul to the trial. My dogs had to move them in groups of 4 all day for 4 days. There was minimal fencing to contain the sheep, and the hills were steep. Some of the sheep would charge the dog, some would try to run. It wasn't just about trotting around a course on trained sheep. It was real work that tested a good dog. Off the trial field these dogs are "farm dogs". If more breeders would get themselves out to a few trials to find the holes in their breeding and be honest with themselves about what they are putting out there, you can be sure there would be some better pups for sale. Border Collies aren't the only dogs tested on the trial field. Look up American Herding Breeders Association.


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## Starlighthill (Mar 5, 2003)

oregon woodsmok said:


> I don't think "farm dogs" are intended to work sheep well enough to trial. If you want to compete in sheep dog trials, buy a border collie.
> 
> My German Shepherds worked as "farm dogs" and they could bring the sheep in, protect the farm, run off predators, let me know if anyone entered the property, kill rats, go riding with me, work the gun as a bird dog, and keep my feet warm at night. They also won obedience titles for me.
> 
> An English Shepherd should be able to fulfill all those farm dog jobs, even if it won't win at the top competition sheep dog trail. Of course, qualifying that: a _well bred_ English collie should make a good farm dog.


Exactly! English Shepherds are all-purpose farm dogs and haven't been selected for show or herding trials. We've had them since '93 and they are the perfect dogs for our homestead. They learn very quickly from routine and can be extremely useful helpers without a lot of formal training. I use mine mainly for chores (watching gates, pushing hungry animals back, keeping me safe from rams and roosters, and herding). I think it is very cool when someone takes an English Shepherd and really trains them, but I'm ecstatic that all that training isn't required for them to serve as a right hand around the farm. I've detailed the type of daily help I get from an English Shepherd here: Chore Dogs 
Someone remarked about some problems she observed with the dog in the last video. You have a keen eye:happy: I'm familiar with the dog and know that his problem is not genetic, but he did sustain an injury when young. His owner is a veterinarian.
Here are a couple of links to a woman who does trial with her English Shepherds. She has about 38 videos and most are of various English Shepherds with stock. Some of them are of the dog's first exposure.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKajU7qrU8I&feature=autoplay&list=ULZsZ_7Pajnmg&playnext=1"]Raven - Small Pen Work[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsZ_7Pajnmg&feature=channel&list=UL"]Gathering on Bank[/ame]

Diane


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## Starlighthill (Mar 5, 2003)

The English Shepherd Club has a working dog database that contains dogs whose owners have submitted working evaluations. It's a valuable tool if you're looking for a pup, or assessing a line.
Working Dog Database

There are lots of people using ES on their farms and breeding for farm dogs. Some of them put herding titles on their dogs, most just use them for practical farm work. 
Orchard Hill
Rimrock English Shepherds
Maple Grove Farm English Shepherds
Sweet Home Farms
Fox Hills English Shepherds

There are many more farmer/breeders who don't have websites.
Diane


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Diane, thank you for that great information! That's exactly what I am looking for. Maple Grove farm isn't that far from me and I am thinking about attending the gathering there next month.


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## beaglady (Oct 7, 2002)

Thanks for finding the time to post those good links, Diane. 

I have ES too, and mine are good all-around farm dogs. We only have poultry, so I don't know how well mine herd, but they help keep the chickens where they belong, and put them up at night. 

Bearfootfarm, I hope you get to to the the Maple Grove gathering. If it weren't so far for me, I'd love to attend. I know of a litter in NC right now, and can pm you the contact info if you like.

Diane W


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