# anyone looking for a project horse? :)



## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

i have started a small horse rescue & several of my horses are up for adoption now. i'll write a *brief* description & if anyone is interested i can give more detail & post pics.

i am in western pa, there will be an adoption contract.

14.3 hand POA gelding. GORGEOUS! (cribber, does fine w/ miracle collar on) was ridden once, needs training.

2 y.o. gorgeous filly, vet said possible STB.

5 y.o. black x-amish cart horse, drives. hackney pony? 14.3 , a bit shy.

maybe there is no interest, but possibly some of you know someone who would be interested.

thanks!
~nicole


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

Good luck on finding homes. It is a tough job doing rescue. You have to balance so that you don't get more than you can handle. You also have to have good enough skills to train a horse, just in case it doesn't turn over very quickly.


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

Well I'm not looking for any projects but could pass the word on. I'm in NW PA, where approx are you? I do barrelracing and so most of the people I know ride western so the POA is probably the only one I might find interest in. Do you know his age and any idea of level of training. Also how would the adoption contract read? If someone got a horse from you to train and sell would that be permissable? Some of the POA's make good youth barrel horses but since most youth can't train them more likely that a trainer might pick him up to train and sell as a youth horse.


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## JJFarmer (Mar 10, 2011)

I wish I had more room. I LOVE horses. I went to college to study horses, learned driving, packing and general training and spent nearly 6 months on horse back camping. My farm is really too small though for the amount of stuff I have going on. 

If I had the space and closer I'd be in.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

If I were closer ... and the black pony was a mare ... have to say I'd be tempted. I love the Hackney Pony type and the best trained animal I've ever owned is the Haflinger mare I have now that was Amish trained.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

I have to ask...what is an STB??


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## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

STB = Standardbred


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

RLStewart said:


> Well I'm not looking for any projects but could pass the word on. I'm in NW PA, where approx are you? I do barrelracing and so most of the people I know ride western so the POA is probably the only one I might find interest in. Do you know his age and any idea of level of training. Also how would the adoption contract read? If someone got a horse from you to train and sell would that be permissable? Some of the POA's make good youth barrel horses but since most youth can't train them more likely that a trainer might pick him up to train and sell as a youth horse.


he is 5. has been ridden, but not properly trained no. the contract will read that the horse is NOT to be sold, i get first right of refusal. he is NOT to go to auction, etc... my goal is to find permanent homes for these horses, they have already been through too much.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

jill.costello said:


> I have to ask...what is an STB??


standardbred  

i'll go aherad & add some pics just for kicks ~ you never know, someone may know someone... lol worth a try right?


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

in this album you can see the POA ~ smokey.

the hackney ( dasher) is the black w/ white blaze.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=264752&id=798312093&l=bcf370a963

in this album is the 2yo possible STB filly ~ her name is bella. these were from the day she arrived 2/14, she looks MUCH better now.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=294126&id=798312093&l=de1813437b


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Hmmm.... that 2 yr old filly is sweet.... does she pace? Is that why we think standardbred? If she has a true walk, trot, canter, I might be ever-so-slightly interested.... Tony-The-Pony will need a filly when his dear Sammie is gone...


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

A lot of times people want a project horse to sell it later.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

jill.costello said:


> Hmmm.... that 2 yr old filly is sweet.... does she pace? Is that why we think standardbred? If she has a true walk, trot, canter, I might be ever-so-slightly interested.... Tony-The-Pony will need a filly when his dear Sammie is gone...


she is very sweet & beautiful! i have better pics of her i can get them up if you'd like. vet did not see her in the paddock, she was going by her size/look i think.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> A lot of times people want a project horse to sell it later.



my placement contract specifies NO resale, breeding, etc... so if that isn't for someone ~ then neither is my rescue.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

harvestgirl said:


> my placement contract specifies NO resale, breeding, etc... so if that isn't for someone ~ then neither is my rescue.


Perhaps you should make that clear before you start advertising.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

that is made known as soon as someone lets me know they are interested & is as clear as a bell in the placement contract/application.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I think what you are doing is wonderful and you surely have every right to put any restrictions you want to on the horses you feel responsible for.
I would never buy or rescue though from a place that has restrictions. I hope there are others that feel differently. Thats just me and I wish you much luck.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

I sometimes wonder how these sorts of contracts are really able to be enforced. How are you going to enforce "no resale" or "no breeding"? Things happen. People get sick, lose their homes, die. What if it's 5-10-15-20 years down the road. Are YOU sure that you are going to be in a position to take back a horse you rescued and adopted out that many years ago? What if you find out a mare was accidentally bred? Are you going to go forcibly take that mare back because the terms of the contract were not followed?

I understand the desire to make sure nothing bad ever happens to an animal you adopt out. I just think it would drive me, personally, crazy to take on that level of responsibility over other people's decisions and actions.

And I wonder how/whether such contracts are legally enforceable, especially when money changes hands. Does the law simply regard it as a sale?

I saw a dog adoption contract once that stated that the potential adopter acknowledged that they did not own the dog, and that the rescue could come and take the dog back at any time down the road, if they thought the dog wasn't being cared for in a manner they approved of. I can tell you I would never have contacted them about adopting from them.

Best of luck with your new endeavor (yes, I mean that).


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Can you afford to keep them if nobody agrees to your terms? I'm asking because I know of a rescue (501(c)3 charity) a few hours from us that will place a horse under much more relaxed circumstances. I could get a really nice horse for $500. They even send theirs out for training before adopting them out. There are so many rescues and so many horses. The people I've know who purchased a project horse do so because they want to train then sell them.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Of course you have a right to ask those restrictions, but I'm just noting that it will scare away a lot of good possibilities for the horses. Of course we don't want anything bad to happen to any horses we've had in our care, but it will take you longer to place them which means you have less room to take horses that are more likely to be in a bad place than the one you could be giving a home. 

I've looked at rescues and I've always wondered why someone would pay as much or more than the horses value in an adoption fee and then have all those strings attached? It's just the reality of the other side of the contract.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

lamoncha lover said:


> I think what you are doing is wonderful and you surely have every right to put any restrictions you want to on the horses you feel responsible for.
> I would never buy or rescue though from a place that has restrictions. I hope there are others that feel differently. Thats just me and I wish you much luck.


LOL ~ that's interesting b/c every single rescue that i am aware of has restrictions & adoption contracts. 

thanks for the wish of luck


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

birchtreefarm said:


> I sometimes wonder how these sorts of contracts are really able to be enforced. How are you going to enforce "no resale" or "no breeding"? Things happen. People get sick, lose their homes, die. What if it's 5-10-15-20 years down the road. Are YOU sure that you are going to be in a position to take back a horse you rescued and adopted out that many years ago? What if you find out a mare was accidentally bred? Are you going to go forcibly take that mare back because the terms of the contract were not followed?


 all of those situations are address in my adoption contract. i will adopt out to people who have been home checked, their references checked, vets & farriers called etc.. and rescuong is not a on-whim-deal, of course i'd take back a horse, that is stated in the contracts as well. 



> I understand the desire to make sure nothing bad ever happens to an animal you adopt out. I just think it would drive me, personally, crazy to take on that level of responsibility over other people's decisions and actions.


well, someone has to be responsible, there are WAY too many backyard breeders & irresponsible horse owners who have gotten the horses in to this place to begin with.



> And I wonder how/whether such contracts are legally enforceable, especially when money changes hands. Does the law simply regard it as a sale?


my contracts does not regard it as a sale, it's called "placement" the rescue will technically always own the horses we adopt out.



> I saw a dog adoption contract once that stated that the potential adopter acknowledged that they did not own the dog, and that the rescue could come and take the dog back at any time down the road, if they thought the dog wasn't being cared for in a manner they approved of. I can tell you I would never have contacted them about adopting from them.


yep,we will do follow up home check,s photos will need to be sent in of all adopted horses & yes, if the horse has diminished health wise, you can bet we'll make sure the horse is returned to the rescue. 



> Best of luck with your new endeavor (yes, I mean that).


thanks


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

Joshie said:


> Can you afford to keep them if nobody agrees to your terms? I'm asking because I know of a rescue (501(c)3 charity) a few hours from us that will place a horse under much more relaxed circumstances. I could get a really nice horse for $500. They even send theirs out for training before adopting them out. There are so many rescues and so many horses. The people I've know who purchased a project horse do so because they want to train then sell them.


everyone is currently safe & sound yes, and they will remain so until they are adopted. ours will be getting training as well & then their price will go up. and i'm sorry, anyone who adopts out a horse under relaxed circumstances isn't being too professional, jmo of course


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Of course you have a right to ask those restrictions, but I'm just noting that it will scare away a lot of good possibilities for the horses. Of course we don't want anything bad to happen to any horses we've had in our care, but it will take you longer to place them which means you have less room to take horses that are more likely to be in a bad place than the one you could be giving a home.


sadly, there will never be a shortage of horses in rescues, whether people are adopting or not. i've adopted 2 horses myself, BOTH rescues had me fill out applications etc.... it's the norm. i am not doing anything different than other other resvue out there, unless of course they aren't an above the board rescue, which there are plenty of! 




> I've looked at rescues and I've always wondered why someone would pay as much or more than the horses value in an adoption fee and then have all those strings attached? It's just the reality of the other side of the contract.


i haven't mentioned a price here, so i am sure this isn't pertaining to me.

thanks for the input everyone, all i can do is my best. and if a stringent adoption contract helps to ensure a better home & not a dealer/broker getting one of my rescues, we'll, that's what i am sticking to.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm not real fond of mystery contracts to my advice to interested parties is caveat emptor.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

harvestgirl said:


> sadly, there will never be a shortage of horses in rescues, whether people are adopting or not. i've adopted 2 horses myself, BOTH rescues had me fill out applications etc.... it's the norm. i am not doing anything different than other other resvue out there, unless of course they aren't an above the board rescue, which there are plenty of!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know and that's fine, but just adding some info and thoughts to the pile.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I do wish you luck with your rescue and the horses, sincerely and hope you do not end up overwhelmed like so many rescues seem to be now. Unfortunately, under the current circumstances, there are so many more horses that need placement than there are people that can/will take them, it is a difficult situation, even for some of the very well-funded and well-established rescues.

I've only known two people who have dealt with a rescue and both of those situations did not work out well, although I'm sure there are many that have, as well. Personally, I would not involve myself with a rescue situation and the contracts and adoption fees when there are so many other options.

My last three 'additions' have involved two outright purchases, registered animals at a very minimal price with known backgrounds and a third 'free' except for the cost of transport, again with registration papers. My plan is to keep all three 'forever' ... but I'm also aware that plans often have to be changed and after owning and loving these three for any length of time, I would want to place them where I felt they would be most appreciated, not leave that up to someone else so would not be willing to get involved in that type of contract.

Will also mention, from personal experience, any contract is only as good as the person signing it. I placed two horses a number of years ago, a stallion on a joint ownership contract and a mare on a foal-back or purchase contract, 600 miles away in another state. The other party breached the contract, refused to respond to inquiries, an injury limited my ability to drive so I could not actually go there to see what was going on and the expense of hiring a private detective to find the person, hire attorneys and go to court was out of range for me. I eventually did discover that the stallion died two years ago and she SOLD the mare but unless I elect to invest what could be substantially more money there is no way to recover anything and $$ recovery would be unlikely.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I'm not criticizing so please don't take it that way. Some would look at this a technically then a long term lease that someone pays $$$ for that could end anytime you (the owner of the rescue) are dissatisfied with the care of the horse. If someone is willing to agree to that, I don't see a problem. Some people might consider it a good option, especially if they don't want to make a 30 year commitment to a horse. You as the owner could end up with a lot of tired, old horses that require a lot of care and more money to feed than is typical.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I have a couple questions- are you asking a fee? Is the fee returned if the horse is returned to you?

I think you'll find that your contract is a bit tight in this economy. You're asking people to put time and money into unbroke or minimally broke horses, all the responsibility of ownership but without a single benefit. 

I rescued a horse from a very large organization, but I owned the horse after two years. Everyone (my Vet included) told me not to do it, that it never works out. They were right I ended up giving the mare back to the rescue as long as they came to pick her up.

Good luck with your endeavor.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Just as a matter of comparison ... for $$ ...

My last three additions, all within the last 6 months, all well handled, in good condition, the 2 year old halter broke, the 7 year old gelding going under saddle with a few issues with spoiling from handfed treats but nothing major, and the 6 year old mare trained to drive, all registered or registerable with papers provided:

Free but $500 transport cost from NJ (6 year old mare)
$250 and an hour away (3 year old cremello filly)
$400 and 10 miles away (7 year old gelding)

Plus I've been offered a registered Welsh stallion sired by a top-10 USEA rated sire out of a sister to the producer of a National pony hunter winner for $500 ... less than an hour away.


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## barnbrat76 (Mar 16, 2011)

Are these Camelot horses?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

None of us are trying to be harsh with you - I just think you're trying to sell to the wrong crowd here.

As it happens, I AM looking for a project horse. In a month I'll have finished totally fencing and cross-fencing the rest of my property and I'll be looking to bring something home. Your POA is adorable. But I will *not* do the full-on rescue thing you're doing. _Not_ trying to criticize, but here are my reasons just so that you understand the mindset on the other side.

As a general rule, anyone looking for a "project horse" that should actually _have_ one - knows something about them. One of those things they are sure to know is where to get them.
>I'm debated whether I dare put a _"Young, Untrained Horse Wanted. Free or Cheap. Will Give Good Home"_ sign up at my local feed store. People might find out where I live, then I'd have to padlock my gates to keep from getting horses dropped off.
>I could browse around CL. If I bookmarked an ad and waited a week, the 100 to 125 horses will be 50 to 75
http://semo.craigslist.org/grd/2273170733.html
http://semo.craigslist.org/grd/2290735522.html
http://jonesboro.craigslist.org/grd/2289398980.html
> I could take a drive to the nearest racetrack around April and pick up a TB free. About a 3 hour drive.
>I could just wait for the local fellow to make that same trip. He does it a few times a year. If he gets a mare, he pastures her with his QH stud. He takes the OTTBs to the local auction (15 minute drive) where the mares generally go for about 125, geldings 75. (I'm _seriously_ considering this one. I like OTTBs and his QH is really nice)He does it because he likes horses and makes the drive anyway so he just brings a horse trailer. It (just) pays for his gas and gives the horses a chance

In ALL of the above scenarios, I now flat out OWN a horse. Nobody calls me or wants to come out to my house. No one else has any claim on this expensive, luxury creature I am about to sink lots of time and $$$ into. I get to make all decisions, from feeding to housing to training to shoeing to breeding with no one else's input.
As I, personally, have worked with other people's horses for years and can do all the training and riding I want - this is really my ONLY reason for owning one. 

If all I wanted was a horse outside my front door to play with, with someone else to deal with - I'd just keep training. Then, I have a horse to work with and the PITA of dealing with another person over it is balanced by the $3-400 a month in _my_ pocket.

Now - here's the biggie. Since I know just how cheap and easy project horses are to acquire 
.. and since I've dealt with horses enough to have the experience to take on a project horse and know how arduous and expensive it can sometimes be
.. and I've been doing it long enough to fully, truly realize just how long a horse lives and how much can change in that time
.. and since I've dealt with enough horse people to know that anyone who doesn't fully respect all of the above (as evidenced by most adoption contracts) is either inexperienced with horses or a little touched (no offense!!) and is going to be hard to deal with. -I would just never get involved. It's not worth it.

Because basically, to me, what most adoption contracts are saying is "I have this <young, old, unsound, untrained, unridable, possibly crazy> horse. I want _you_ to take it and care for it just how I say to and pay for all of it's expenses out of your own pocket. I want to be able to come and invade your life any time I feel like for the next 30 years this horse will live. 
If at any time I decide I don't like what you're doing, just don't like you or you have a major life change, I reserve the right to pitch a fit and take the horse back. Once I take it back I will do whatever I want with it, be that sell it, "adopt" it out again or stick it in a field and forget it.
While everyone else who has ever offered you this deal has been naive, touched or looking for free training for horses that they seize and sell - _I'm_ not. You'll just have to take my word on that.
BTW, for this privilege, pay me 4x or more what you would pay to "rescue" same or similar horse from an auction yourself. After all, I bid first"

Now, I understand that you're trying to do a good thing. And that you're modeling your rescue on other rescues out there. But, I (and pretty much anyone else with enough horse experience to take on a project) has at least peripherally dealt with the scenario described above and knows it's a burn waiting to happen. 
We also know that the only way to be certain of a horse's future is to keep it yourself.

The only adoption contract I will ever deal with is the BLMs - and after a year, I own it outright.
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...plication.Par.32707.File.dat/BLM_4710-010.pdf

Again, please understand that I didn't write this out to be critical - just to help you understand where experienced horse people are coming from. I understand that you're trying to do a good thing and I wish you the best in your endeavor.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Around here and in this economy, you can't hardly give away good, registered, trained horses with no strings and no issues. It's a sad situation. I admire rescues, but I can understand people that won't do the rescue thing. I wouldn't want someone coming to my house to scrutinize how I care for my animals and some of the rescues around here have almost impossible requirements to follow and reserve the right to take back the horse at any time with no refund of the money paid and if you surrender the horse back, you still don't get the money back. I'm not sure how enforceable that is though since livestock are considered property and if money changes hands, it's legally the other person's property. 

Good luck finding homes! Isn't the POA one that was in a thread a long time ago that was a stud pony and had a horrible cribbing problem that the stable didn't want to house because of it and then was gelded? Or am I remembering a different pony?


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## Harmony_Meadows (Nov 4, 2007)

You might want to check out the laws in your area, because in most places, signed or not, legal sounding or not, most of those contract amount to a hill of beans. And the ones who will do wrong by your horses and thus are the need for such contracts already know that they are, for the most part, unenforcible. It is the sad reality of rescue. The good, honest and caring people you want to have your horses either dont want the hassle or get severly burned on the technicalities. The ones you don't want taking one of your horses will either simply disappear, already know the law and you wont have a leg to stand on or will give you a fight that will cost money better served elsewhere. 

I really hope you are successful. But like many others here, I would never take a horse from a rescue. Too many horses out there that need help that I can own outright and not have to deal with people annoying me on a weekend! 

Good luck! Noble endovour!!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have a couple questions- are you asking a fee? Is the fee returned if the horse is returned to you?
> 
> I think you'll find that your contract is a bit tight in this economy. You're asking people to put time and money into unbroke or minimally broke horses, all the responsibility of ownership but without a single benefit.
> 
> ...


I also had a bad experience. However, the rescue signed the horse over to me via the brand inspection. After we found out the horse was not what he was billed as, we were told we could not return him, give him away or sell him. We were "just going to have to keep him". Uh-huh.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

hey everyone ~ thanks for ALL the words, really. i am not taking offense & agree this is prob. not the right crowd to offer these horses to. i am of the school of thought that well, you just never know. lol ~ so i thought i'd try, can't hurt right? my skin is pretty thick & i understand it will need to stay that was in the rescue business. i don;t claim to know it all & learn something new every day whether about horses, or the horse biz in general & i hope i continue to learn.

my rescue is also a sanctuary~ so all horses will stay with me until they are adopted. currently i have 8 rescue horses, one of which is in foal ~ so 9 in a few months. i have interest in 2 that are up for adoption now & have *no* plans to rescue until i am able to find homes for some, and i have the space.

thanks for talking about this with me ~ i really do enjoy the varying perspectives.

 ~ nicole


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

wr said:


> I'm not real fond of mystery contracts to my advice to interested parties is caveat emptor.


i don't have a mystery contract, i have an adoption contract & a placement agreement. if someone is interested in one of my horses ~ they contact me & i send them the paperwork to fill out.

i'm not quite sure what is mysterious about that?


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have a couple questions- are you asking a fee? Is the fee returned if the horse is returned to you?


of course there is an adoption fee, if there wasn't there would be kill buyers lined up to snap up a free horses. i have put time & $ in to the horse prior to adoption, so now ~ why would the fee be returned if the horse was? 



> I think you'll find that your contract is a bit tight in this economy. You're asking people to put time and money into unbroke or minimally broke horses, all the responsibility of ownership but without a single benefit.


i am not asking people to do anything. if they agree w/ the contract & want a specific horse, that's their decision. the horse are meant to be w/ their new homes/owners on a permanent basis, this isn't a game of pass the pony. so, yes the hose would be the adopters, the rescue "owing" the horse is a technicality.



> I rescued a horse from a very large organization, but I owned the horse after two years. Everyone (my Vet included) told me not to do it, that it never works out. They were right I ended up giving the mare back to the rescue as long as they came to pick her up.
> Good luck with your endeavor.


not sure why you gave it back, and i know that does happen. my vet has been nothing but supportive in my endevaor  thanks!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

As far as I'm concerned, if one is using HT for free advertising, the least one can do is clarify the terms. 

As the mod for this particular group, I've had to perform post mortems on a few HT horse deals that went south and last time we had one go bad, it was bad enough that it took a judge to sort it out.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Well I do a fair bit of rescue, right now I have four horses that were given to me as owners could not or would not feed/farrier/care for them. One is a black 13.2 h. pony, which I adopted out to a nice family who has a trainer full time..these folks own the pony for better or worse, although I would take said pony back if necessary. They love the pony though and spend more time and money on her than most folks would.

I have an old retired ottb turned polo pony, now retired and toting that same little kid around that has the little black pony. He is leased to the folks as he is push button safe. This was another free, well broke, healthy horse that the owner simply couldn't continue to care for.

My Oldenburg, Denalli, was also a free horse whose owner thought she was permanently lame, turns out she simply had an abscess in the rear hind. Free horse that cost her previous owner 20,000 and more for training. Denalli is in training for dressage and is one of my personal horses, she's a five year old and out of one of the top Canadian dressage stallions - ranked third in the world at one time.

I have an ottb named Honor that is foxhunting down in MS - I adopted him for 300. and he turned out to be a great horse, just too much horse for me to ride so he is being ridden by a young boy. Nice sound horse.

And my old paint mare - another freebie..former show hunter and excellent kid's horse. She's retired now, but was used in lessons. Free horse.

Point is, I get offers of NICE free horses that are well trained, healthy and sound weekly. I turn them down as I have no more room, time or dollars for training. Some horses I do place with no strings attached after I talk with the vet and farrier, go visit the people in person, and I do check on the horses at least twice a year. 

I work with a licensed 503C rescue and contribute dollars and time to them as I can. Are you a licensed 503c rescue?


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

harvestgirl said:


> all of those situations are address in my adoption contract. i will adopt out to people who have been home checked, their references checked, vets & farriers called etc.. and rescuong is not a on-whim-deal, of course i'd take back a horse, that is stated in the contracts as well.


I don't doubt you're well-intentioned. But you are saying that no matter what happens in your life, you are definitely going to be able and willing to take back a horse that someone else has "rented" from you (essentially) even if it's several years down the road. You can't possibly know that. That's all I'm trying to say. 



harvestgirl said:


> well, someone has to be responsible, there are WAY too many backyard breeders & irresponsible horse owners who have gotten the horses in to this place to begin with.


You appear to be implying that anyone who is responsible will do rescue, and that the rest of us are not and in fact are probably said "backyard breeders and irresponsible horse owners". I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that's not really what you meant.




harvestgirl said:


> my contracts does not regard it as a sale, it's called "placement" the rescue will technically always own the horses we adopt out.


Yes, but what does the LAW say? Is your contract worth the paper it's written on? That was my question. I could write a contract saying that you agree to be my slave for life, and live in a doghouse. If you signed it would that make it legal and enforceable? If you haven't already, you may want to check out the laws in your state, or get legal counsel as to what sort of contract you can actually enforce. If money changes hands, you can call it anything you like, but given it's for a horse, the law may simply consider it a sale, in which case you will not "technically" or otherwise own the horses you adopt out. I know these types of contracts exist (I gave you an example of a dog adoption contract like that), but that doesn't mean they are necessarily legally enforceable.



harvestgirl said:


> yep,we will do follow up home check,s photos will need to be sent in of all adopted horses & yes, if the horse has diminished health wise, you can bet we'll make sure the horse is returned to the rescue.


Are you only adopting to people within a comfortable driving distance then? Not to people several hundred miles away? Photos? When, how often, for how long? How will you make sure the horse is returned? How will you know that in a case that you feel the horse is not being taken care of to your standards, that you'll actually have room/time/money to accept the horse back? Suppose someone moves across country with their adopted horse and you never hear from them again? Are you going to spend time and money to track them down, or just write them off?

I'm just posing these questions so that you can think about all the ramifications of what you are proposing to do. From my point of view, I would never adopt a dog, cat, horse, or anything else where the contract basically said, "you pay us a fee, and you are financially responsible for the complete care of this animal for the rest of its life, but you don't own it. We can remove it from your care at any time, for any reason we feel justified in giving, and you have no recourse but to hand the animal back to us." 

:umno:

First of all, it's insulting. You, the rescue, are basically saying, "We've checked you out, and as far as we can tell, you're a good responsible person, but really, we don't trust you as far as we can throw you, so we're going to put in this caveat in case you really are as bad as we think you might be."

Second, the only people you need a contract like this for are the bad ones, and they aren't going to abide by your contract anyway. The good ones don't need it, and probably aren't going to accept it and adopt from you.

Rescue is not easy. It wears you down. You start out thinking you can save them all, then you realize you can't, that there are things that are out of your control, and were never really in your control to begin with, you just fooled yourself into thinking they were. And then you either adjust your thinking and accept what you cannot control, and do the best you can, or you get out completely, burnt out, bitter and demoralized.

Geez, I'm a real bundle of encouragement, aren't I? ;-) Just think carefully and long about everything, and don't get in over your head.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Interesting thread. I think the others have touched on some really important points.

Are you a 501(c)(3) organization? Because if you are not, you will really have a hard time finding people who want these horses AND are willing to agree to your terms. If it's *just you* and you are finding these horses and "placing" them into new homes with such a specific contract, I think people are going to balk at your expectations and I would also question the legality of your contract. Will you truly be able to remove a horse from someone's property 2 years down the road? Says who? A piece of paper that you write does not mean you have a legally binding contract.

As far as never being able to resell a rescue.....it would be different if they were all old retirees. If I bought that gorgeous POA and put $10K in training on him over the next 2 years....I'd be ----ed if I couldn't sell him for a reasonable price. Finding someone who will buy an UNBROKE young horse knowing they can NEVER sell it (no matter how successful or fancy it becomes)....well....what kind of home do you think that will be? Is that better than someone who will put quality training into a young horse and give it a great new career?

No one disagrees that rescues should not just give horses to anyone who comes along. I think the same about adopting kids (having two myself). But eventually, you have to realize that good background checking is the best you can do, and ultimately you have to trust that people will make good choices. Making sure families know they can return horses to you if their circumstances change will go a long way.

ETA: my boarder got a Camelot horse last summer through another rescue (a 6 year old OTTB mare). I'll have to look at the contract - I know they will take it back, but I don't think she is prevented from selling it. Their goal is to try to encourage owners to keep them informed about their horses, but with a very light touch. She did have to provide references and pictures, but the rescue organization has never asked for followup pictures. (Of course she loves to send them pictures, but they don't require it). Her adoption fee was $700 and that included about 6 weeks of "rehab" and QT....they also rode the mare quite a bit so when she went to try her she was able to walk/trot/canter in both directions in english tack.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I also had a bad experience. However, the rescue signed the horse over to me via the brand inspection. After we found out the horse was not what he was billed as, we were told we could not return him, give him away or sell him. We were "just going to have to keep him". Uh-huh.


This is basically why mine went back too. The only difference was that I owed it after two years, the organization changed the contract wording after I had bought this horse now the horse is never owned by the buyer. I didn't give the rescue much choice, I said "Come get it or I put it on Craigslist. Cheap." The horse was grossly misrepresented, multiple health and temperment issues, she was on the dangerous side when she got here but I soon rectified that issue.

With so many free and very cheap well broke horses with no issues out there why would anyone invest in a horse that isn't broke, has issues, and be potentially stuck with a problem for life? 

My opinion is harsh but it worked for years- there are some horses that need to be in kill pens and slaughtered. In some cases it's best for the horse and people at large. Part of the horse problem we're having now is shutting down the slaughter plants in the US- border states can still ship to Canada and Mexico but they're turning horses out to starve in the middle states. I'd prefer instant death to a captive bolt than starvation and neglect any day.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> My opinion is harsh but it worked for years- there are some horses that need to be in kill pens and slaughtered. In some cases it's best for the horse and people at large.


I wholeheartedly agree although there are many places I choose NOT to voice my opinion on this. In my case, my attitude was established by background, on a ranch where necessary work was done with horses, both in the field and with cattle. If you had an unreliable, dangerous horse to work with the chances of being injured were higher ... which meant worst case scenario, with the man of the family seriously injured, grain didn't get planted/harvested, hay didn't get put up, animals starved in the winter and family went hungry.

Working with horses and machinery and riding alone miles from help is not a particularly safe occupation at any time. Doing this with unreliable ... and occasionally downright dangerous ... animals is just simply foolish. I have, unfortunately, worked with a few of this kind of horse over my 60-some years of handling horses. 

However, I have also found that there are people who cannot be convinced that there are some horses that will simply not ever be reliable or safe to handle and that to avoid potential injuries, these horses really do need to be taken out of the general population. 

Most western people I know who have grown up around horses ... and livestock in general ... understand this. 

I have stopped trying to convince those of the "oh, he's just been abused, or mishandled, or misunderstood" mindset that there are some horses that are simply not safe and never will be. :bdh:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SFM and Irish Pixie, I agree 100%.

I'd also like to point out that there are many 'backyard' breeders that produce exception quality foals and quite a few volume breeders that are producing poor quality foals and even a few that are simply breeding to meet the demands of the slaughter market so it's really not fair to lay the blame for the saturated market entirely on the small producer.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think (know actually) that many people who start rescues are well-intentioned and kind people, but many, many of them are really newbies to horses and have an overly romanticized view of them. Which is bad for the horses and for the people around them.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I agree, Lisa. Many get in over their heads and can't support the horses they've rescued, it's sad because their intentions were good.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I think (know actually) that many people who start rescues are well-intentioned and kind people, but many, many of them are really newbies to horses and have an overly romanticized view of them. Which is bad for the horses and for the people around them.


One of the big issues with a horse leasing operation described in this thread is that many of these "rescues" state they'll take the horse back when they really cannot. Let's the rescue can take care of ten horses. If the rescue keeps ten horses available for "adoption" most of the time what will they do if five former adoptees want to return horses at the same time? If not independently wealthy and able to pay large feed, vet, and farmhand fees what happens to the returned horses? Who pays for transportation back to the rescue? Even if you only allow adoptions within, say, a three hour drive what will you do if the adopter moves? What if they don't have a horse trailer or can't/won't pay for transport back to your place? 

If somebody really wants to sell the adopted horse they could easily tell you that the horse died. If I was dishonest this is what I'd do.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Even if you are a breeder, rather than a rescue, with a 'take back' policy ... not necessarily even a buy back policy, it can end up being impossible at some point. I was fortunate this year in that a 7 year old gelding, purchased from me as a weanling, had to be sold ... and I was able to buy him back.

If the owner had wanted more $$ I probably couldn't have done it ... and even free, if he'd been in California, I couldn't have afforded the hauling charges. I do what I can, I try to help place/re-sell something I've bred if the current owner has to do that but it just simply isn't always possible.

I really can't imagine trying to deal with this as a rescue.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Joshie said:


> One of the big issues with a horse leasing operation described in this thread is that many of these "rescues" state they'll take the horse back when they really cannot. Let's the rescue can take care of ten horses. If the rescue keeps ten horses available for "adoption" most of the time what will they do if five former adoptees want to return horses at the same time? If not independently wealthy and able to pay large feed, vet, and farmhand fees what happens to the returned horses? Who pays for transportation back to the rescue? Even if you only allow adoptions within, say, a three hour drive what will you do if the adopter moves? What if they don't have a horse trailer or can't/won't pay for transport back to your place?
> 
> If somebody really wants to sell the adopted horse they could easily tell you that the horse died. If I was dishonest this is what I'd do.


Not in the west, if the rescue holds on to the brand inspection. Luckily, the rescue we dealt with didn't so legally we were free to sell the horse, despite their threats that we had to keep him.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

wr said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if one is using HT for free advertising, the least one can do is clarify the terms.


you seem to be missing the point here. IF someone contacted me about a horse in my care, i'd send them the contract post haste. i was inquiring here IF there was any interest & obviously there isn't ~ lol. no rescue posts their application & says " here, read this & get in touch. " 

and what exactly am i advertising?

the POA now has an app out on him & it looks like a wonderful home, so YES there are people out there who WILL fill out the app. & take on the responsibility.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

birchtreefarm said:


> First of all, it's insulting. You, the rescue, are basically saying, "We've checked you out, and as far as we can tell, you're a good responsible person, but really, we don't trust you as far as we can throw you, so we're going to put in this caveat in case you really are as bad as we think you might be."


well yeah~ and that's life. too many bad seeds ruin it for the good. it's nothing personal at all, rescues have to cover our XXXXX & the horses we care for. i have a son of dynaformer 1/2 bro. of barbaro that i adopted from another rescue HE was in the killpen. no way i am taking a chance of my kill-pen rescues ending up there again, if you ( generalization) don't like the contract, then don't adopt from me. as i said all horse are free to remain with me until a suitable home is found.




> Rescue is not easy. It wears you down. You start out thinking you can save them all, then you realize you can't, that there are things that are out of your control, and were never really in your control to begin with, you just fooled yourself into thinking they were. And then you either adjust your thinking and accept what you cannot control, and do the best you can, or you get out completely, burnt out, bitter and demoralized.


that's right, all very true. not everyone is cut out to do it.



> Geez, I'm a real bundle of encouragement, aren't I? ;-) Just think carefully and long about everything, and don't get in over your head.


thanks, i'll do my best.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

Joshie said:


> If somebody really wants to sell the adopted horse they could easily tell you that the horse died. If I was dishonest this is what I'd do.[/FONT]


and my contract states that i be notified by a vet/the person who has the horse as soon as the horse has died & there will be a report made by the vet.

and whomever asked yes, i will do my best to adopt w/in a 4 hour range of where i live, i will make exceptions for people i know, who live longer distances away.

thanks for the chit-chat everyone


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

harvestgirl said:


> and what exactly am i advertising?


These, I believe:

14.3 hand POA gelding. GORGEOUS! (cribber, does fine w/ miracle collar on) was ridden once, needs training.

2 y.o. gorgeous filly, vet said possible STB.

5 y.o. black x-amish cart horse, drives. hackney pony? 14.3 , a bit shy


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

harvestgirl, I don't think the folks here are trying to *dissuade* you from doing a horse rescue with a very strict contract....more that they are seeing the realities from both sides of the coin and are trying to inform you.

The reality of it is, once you have 50 horses dumped on you, you are not going to have the time nor the manpower to check up on all the horses that have been adopted out. That being the case, your "adoption contract" is technically a sale. The WORDS are "adoption contract" and "rescue legally owns the horse", but seriously, are you going to put the time and money into tracking down Mr. Smith, who adopted two horses for his daughters, then a year later was transferred to Oregon with his company, and now the daughters are currently in college in England? If he sells the horses, who is going to know that, legally, they belong to the rescue? Will you have the resources to track down possible buyers of these horses and retrieve them? Look at the practical side rather than the idealistic side...what are your options in ENFORCING your contract? Do you have the funds to take someone to court?

I am not even a rescue, but I have more free, came-to-me-in-not-so-great-shape horses that I am feeding, and ensuring the health of, than I wanted.  That being said, I would love to have your black hackney, JUST because I really want a driving horse/pony. I know how to drive, and drove carriages for some time (In Denver, where they have LAWS about the humane treatment of carriage horses...not in, say, Austin, where the poor things are worked, literally, to death.)...but I am not qualified to TRAIN a horse to drive. It would be wonderful to have one that already KNEW how. 

Still, in your endeavors, if you wish to do this for charity, consider options that do not involve the exchange of money. ANY rescue is a money hole, it NEVER balances out....

I have managed to donate a couple of my rescues to the Equitation Program at the local University. Not only will they have all the health care that the Veterinary College there can provide, but they will have *immense* amounts of training...and lets face it, training makes a horse valuable and less likely to end up in a rescue program. 

Seen any High Schooled Dressage horses in a rescue lately? Trained cutting horses? No? Is it because it isn't the bloodlines, but the TRAINING that makes these horses worth many, many thousands of dollars? 

Look to your local Universities and colleges and see about placement there. No, you won't make back the feed and care you put into them.... but you might be more likely to assure them of a future. Universities and Equitation Programs such as I describe would NEVER agree to such a contract as you have stated here, as their own rules state that the University or Student must have legal ownership of the animal....

...yet that is a dang cushy job for a horse. Universities have a reputation to protect...they cannot afford to have it get around that their alumnus's favorite beginner's horse was sold for dog food. Their animals get to retire on lush pastures. Students who join the Equitation Programs are generally competing in four to six year leagues in which the horse gets WELL schooled, and they tend to do one of two things:

1. Keep their horses as they turn professional.
2. Donate their horses to the University.

In either case, the horse ends up winning because, again, it has a life with an active, interesting environment, and then enjoys a cushy retirement.

Do you plan to be completely inflexible in your contract? Will you do so to the detriment of your horses? Have you considered ALL of the options?

And just what WOULD it take to get an Hackney pony to Texas?


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

harvestgirl said:


> well yeah~ and that's life. too many bad seeds ruin it for the good. it's nothing personal at all, rescues have to cover our XXXXX & the horses we care for. i have a son of dynaformer 1/2 bro. of barbaro that i adopted from another rescue HE was in the killpen. no way i am taking a chance of my kill-pen rescues ending up there again, if you ( generalization) don't like the contract, then don't adopt from me.


I think you will find homes for your horses, you just may not be able to enforce your contracts, and therefore, may want to consider the wording. 

I do think, however, that rescues that are not 501(c)(3) are not as likely to attract good buyers, and certainly not receive donations from people who might be willing to give. And I think donations and volunteers will make or break a rescue/sanctuary and its viability for the future. Personally, I would not adopt or donate to a "rescue" that is not a 501(c)(3) or willing to make the effort to become one. 

To me, a *person* that is a "rescue" is at best a good-hearted individual who is trying to help horses out but likely to encounter financial difficulty in doing so....or at worst a hoarder or scam artist. Either way, I'm not interested. So if you want to be considered a "real" rescue organization - get your 501(c)(3), get a webpage, and let people know you're for real. 

My trainer just took in a rescue horse that was rescued from a "rescue". She seems to be a saint, but when the first rescue couldn't get homes for all their animals, another rescue had to step in to recover the animals because they were starving. It happens.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

This all reminds me, sadly, of the dog rescue business. I've been going through the same sort of thing with some local (and some not so local) dog rescues. I think all rescue organizations have a place, however, the arrogance is mounting. I shudder....


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

it isn't being arrogant. it's being responsible. there are people out there who will tell you they will give your horse a good home & they won't. earlier this year i dealt w/ 2 diff. situations where someone gave their horse to someone who said they'd take care of it , give it a good home etc... well guess what? the horses ended up at auction, not just run thru the auction, but ended up in the kill pen.

so YES. i will do whatever i can w/in my abilities to find permanent homes for the rescue horses in my care. and i am not just a person who is a rescue. i am a non-profit entity in the state of PA & i have already applied for my non-proft 501c3 status, and my website is under construction.

sure~ there are rescues that need rescued, i am doing my best to make sure i do not end up being one of those.

i will i am sure (in time), be flexible in the contract. and as long as the horses are with me, being cared for what detriment is there?

it is interesting to read the varying POV & i do appreciate the comments, food for thought for sure ~ thanks!


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

but you made it seem like i am hiding something. and i am not. as aforemetioned IF there is interest, contact me & i'll send you the application, nothing to hide it's all there for you to read over.

makes zero sense for me to post the application ~ lol, not sure why you think i should do that? 




wr said:


> These, I believe:
> 
> 14.3 hand POA gelding. GORGEOUS! (cribber, does fine w/ miracle collar on) was ridden once, needs training.
> 
> ...


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

To be an advocate here...how many people rescue a horse for little to no money for adoption fee, then turn around and rehome it to who knows where, even an auction or something? Her contract sounds identical to one I signed with my local rescue, that they had the right to come out and observe the horse at any time, and that if I no longer wanted the horse they would take him back. Sadly, when I had no choice but to return the navicular boy, I was told I was on my own. I played HAVOC trying to find him a good home and we still call that home every now and then to be sure all is well. The contract doesn't state the horse ISN'T mine. There is ANOTHER rescue, though, that states right in the contract that the horse can be removed by the agency at any time. THAT is a nono! Even if the contract isn't worth a darn, it may make someone who has less than pure purposes think twice or go elsewhere. ALso, an adoption fee is necassary, no rescue can subsist on it's owners finances. The hope is maybe we can recoup just a bit of the horse's vet bills, farrier and feed, as well as coggins, etc.

If I were to offer a friendly and very humble advice, it might be to reword the contract so as not to scare prospective adopters away. I had three rescues, and loved each one as much as the next. Not one regret. You HAVE THE RIGHT to go see where the horse is to be homed. I cannot imagiane someone selling a horse and not wishing to see where he would be going, unless it was a long distance thing. :shrug:

I will admit I skimmed through most of these answers, and I could be way off base here.

The application would be, in my opinion posted AFTER someone expresses an interest in one of the animals. Pictures, the contract, the adoption fee at that point. Otherwise, for what purpose would she be posting these things? She is admitting the flaws that she is aware of right on her listings.

I could be really wrong, it has happened once or twice before .


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> These, I believe:
> 
> 14.3 hand POA gelding. GORGEOUS! (cribber, does fine w/ miracle collar on) was ridden once, needs training.
> 
> ...


I thought the POA was only 14H? From the earlier posts about him?


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

harvestgirl said:


> so YES. i will do whatever i can w/in my abilities to find permanent homes for the rescue horses in my care. and i am not just a person who is a rescue. i am a non-profit entity in the state of PA & i have already applied for my non-proft 501c3 status, and my website is under construction.
> 
> sure~ there are rescues that need rescued, i am doing my best to make sure i do not end up being one of those.
> 
> ...


Then I think you're headed in the right direction. And if you only take in a few horses at a time, you are unlikely to become one of those rescues that need to be rescued -- I think that's what happens....they go to the auction and can't say no to something that has little/no chance of finding a good home. And before they know it they have a dozen like that, and no donations to support them....

Have you had a chance to talk to other rescues about their contracts? I can PM you the name of the one that my boarder got her mare from - also through New Holland - but they are in NY, so it may not be that helpful. But you can probably get a lot of advice from an established rescue organization in your state.

Good luck!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

offthegrid said:


> Then I think you're headed in the right direction. And if you only take in a few horses at a time, you are unlikely to become one of those rescues that need to be rescued -- I think that's what happens....they go to the auction and can't say no to something that has little/no chance of finding a good home. And before they know it they have a dozen like that, and no donations to support them....
> !


This happened to my current rescue organization...the lady couldn't say no. I saw her take in horses that really, should have been euthanized. There, I said it. She could have taken that money spent on those poor horses and used it to rehab others that had the hopes of finding a home.  Now they are nearly belly up, and STILL full of horses with catastrophic injuries, etc.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

harvestgirl said:


> well yeah~ and that's life. too many bad seeds ruin it for the good. it's nothing personal at all, rescues have to cover our XXXXX & the horses we care for. i have a son of dynaformer 1/2 bro. of barbaro that i adopted from another rescue HE was in the killpen. no way i am taking a chance of my kill-pen rescues ending up there again, if you ( generalization) don't like the contract, then don't adopt from me. as i said all horse are free to remain with me until a suitable home is found.


This drives me insane. Do you know how many half brothers (and sisters) there are to Barbaro? Or sons/daughters of Dynaformer? Are you going to rescue them too? Or any other OTTTBs or just certain bloodlines? Here's a link to progeny of Dynaformer on the Thoroughbred Pedigree website: http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/dynaformer and that's just what is listed on that particular site. It's certainly not all of them.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> This drives me insane. Do you know how many half brothers (and sisters) there are to Barbaro? Or sons/daughters of Dynaformer? Are you going to rescue them too? Or any other OTTTBs or just certain bloodlines? Here's a link to progeny of Dynaformer on the Thoroughbred Pedigree website: http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/dynaformer and that's just what is listed on that particular site. It's certainly not all of them.



Lol, see it all the time in the TWH world- "he's a grandson of the Pusher" or any of the WGCs- yeah, Scooter- they ALL are! :hysterical:


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

harvestgirl said:


> well yeah~ and that's life. too many bad seeds ruin it for the good. it's nothing personal at all, *rescues have to cover our XXXXX & the horses we care for.* i have a son of dynaformer 1/2 bro. of barbaro that i adopted from another rescue HE was in the killpen. no way i am taking a chance of my kill-pen rescues ending up there again, if you ( generalization) don't like the contract, then don't adopt from me. as i said all horse are free to remain with me until a suitable home is found.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good luck with that (bolded part). With my years of experience doing horse rehab and rescue on my own as well as my years doing it with TN's oldest and largest rescue, you NEVER make back the money put in the horse. Period. 
Adoption fees are just a small, small portion of the funds that help support rescue; public donations and some grants are how we survive. Very seldom is restitution granted by the courts paid. 

Although ANY rescue should be run like a business, the desire to truely help abused/neglected horses should be the focus.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Lol, see it all the time in the TWH world- "he's a grandson of the Pusher" or any of the WGCs- yeah, Scooter- they ALL are! :hysterical:


About 12 years ago, a client (I gave their daughter lessons and tuned up a gelding they had) asked me to come look at an Appendix Quarter Horse they had bought and were really excited about. I go and check out the mare, I believe she was 7-8, and they were gushing over the fact that Secretariat was her grandsire- her name was Secretariat Bar Something or Another. The only thing this creature had in common with Secretariat was that she was chestnut and his name. Horrible conformation- weedy with a chest so narrow it looked like both legs came out of the same hole, more cow hocked than most cows, and a really pathetically ugly head. Her back was so long she undulated when she loped- all I could think of was one of those inch worm toys that kids used to ride on... but by Gosh she was a Secretariat granddaughter! This mare's saving grace was that she was as sweet as a summer peach and broke to death those kids could do _anything_ with her.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

Horse rescue, BTDT. The problem with 503c is they own you. Too much red tape. You build a barn and it belongs to the organization, not the individual. Just too controlling. 

Good Luck in todays horse market.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Good luck with that (bolded part).


I read that as "cover our butts" and not "cover our expenses".


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

harvestgirl said:


> and my contract states that i be notified by a vet/the person who has the horse as soon as the horse has died & there will be a report made by the vet.


So, what will you do when the horse dies but the leaser doesn't call the vet? How many people are going to spend a couple hundred dollars or more on an emergency vet call? What makes you think a vet will come out at midnight on a Friday to pronounce a horse dead? Certainly wouldn't be sanitary to keep the body out in the field until Monday. Wouldn't do a whole lot for the psyche of the other horses or for the family itself. What if the people call the renderer to get the horse? Will you come out to the farm and dig up the horse?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

jennigrey, actually, she was covering her donkey


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

wr said:


> covering her donkey


:teehee: I thought rescues were against breeding... :lookout:


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> This drives me insane. Do you know how many half brothers (and sisters) there are to Barbaro?


quite a few i am sure.



> Or sons/daughters of Dynaformer?


again, quite a few.



> Are you going to rescue them too?


no plans to, no.




> Or any other OTTTBs or just certain bloodlines?


i'll rescue those who need rescuing, bloodlines make no difference to me.

and i didn't mention him to get a rise out of anybody YES i am aware there are A LOT of 1/2 bros./sisters of barbaro etc.... my point was *ANY* horse can end up in the kill pen, YES even a successful race horse w/ a nice pedigree.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

Joshie said:


> So, what will you do when the horse dies but the leaser doesn't call the vet? How many people are going to spend a couple hundred dollars or more on an emergency vet call?




the adoption contract is pretty straight forward, if "you" don't agree then don't adopt from me. 




> What makes you think a vet will come out at midnight on a Friday to pronounce a horse dead? Certainly wouldn't be sanitary to keep the body out in the field until Monday. Wouldn't do a whole lot for the psyche of the other horses or for the family itself. What if the people call the renderer to get the horse? Will you come out to the farm and dig up the horse?


as i said above, if the contract is to be upheld ~ none of what you stated would happen.

you can speculate until the fat lady sings. all i am doing is being responsible for the horses in my care currently, and doing my best to rehab them & find them good homes.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

beccachow said:


> To be an advocate here...how many people rescue a horse for little to no money for adoption fee, then turn around and rehome it to who knows where, even an auction or something? Her contract sounds identical to one I signed with my local rescue, that they had the right to come out and observe the horse at any time, and that if I no longer wanted the horse they would take him back. Sadly, when I had no choice but to return the navicular boy, I was told I was on my own. I played HAVOC trying to find him a good home and we still call that home every now and then to be sure all is well. The contract doesn't state the horse ISN'T mine. There is ANOTHER rescue, though, that states right in the contract that the horse can be removed by the agency at any time. THAT is a nono! Even if the contract isn't worth a darn, it may make someone who has less than pure purposes think twice or go elsewhere. ALso, an adoption fee is necassary, no rescue can subsist on it's owners finances. The hope is maybe we can recoup just a bit of the horse's vet bills, farrier and feed, as well as coggins, etc.
> 
> If I were to offer a friendly and very humble advice, it might be to reword the contract so as not to scare prospective adopters away. I had three rescues, and loved each one as much as the next. Not one regret. You HAVE THE RIGHT to go see where the horse is to be homed. I cannot imagiane someone selling a horse and not wishing to see where he would be going, unless it was a long distance thing. :shrug:
> 
> ...


amen! someone gets it!


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

I just want to add sorely needed insight here, having done rescue for quite a long time all over this side of the USA. . . 
I've placed many horses. I have dealt with and worked with most legit rescue in a 6 hour radius from here. . .

First of all, that contract is 100% the norm. I&#8217;ve seen many successful rescues have MUCH more stringent contracts. I assure you, they are 100% enforceable. I&#8217;ve used them with law enforcement to seize horses back.

Ask me how important they are. . .how many adopters still fill them out and then starve the horse? Lots. Having seen people trying to just talk to people and feel out a good home. . .I can assure you, my horses have a lot better chance at a legitimately good home in the long run. 

Why rescue a horse and invest heart and money and just give it to someone who says they will take care of it? No real rescue could, should or would do that.

Rescues do amazing work when they are legit. 

One of the main reasons to use a rescue is that while you might find a free horse on craiglist, you are just saving that one horse. When you use a rescue, you are helping fund a resource for equine welfare that might extend for hundreds of miles. It is a true way to help in a big way, have an impact on the care of these amazing animals, and in the long run, save many horses from abuse and neglect.

You still have to vet it, have an initial farrier visit, vaccines, etc. If that horse doesn&#8217;t work out, you&#8217;re left holding the bag, so to speak., when you find yourself a free horse. If you cannot bear to support a rescue, then by all means, save one yourself, but when you adopt from a rescue, you hold up a standard of care and a commitment to equines all over the place. 

I have only encountered a few people consider the numbers of folks that inquire about adoption who have balked at the contract I have require or the contacts other rescues require that I help network with, but typically, the people who seek out rescue are those looking at the big picture. I am thankful for such people. When people do rarely get uncomfortable with the contact, I am glad because it makes my job easier there, too. . .I know they aren't someone I would feel good about dealing with. Sometimes they really are an okay home or even a good home, but typically, it denotes something subpar.

Adoption isn&#8217;t for everyone, but I am so glad it works for so many people looking for a horse.

Horse prices are in the gutter &#8211; anyone breeding anything but leading, elite bloodlines with a record behind them is sorely misguided. There is no money to be made in average horses, so I see no benefit to being able to sell a horse that, at best, might bring $100 at auction, and why take a horse if you do not have all intentions of giving it lifelong care baring some unforeseen circumstance (and in those cases, how assuring it is to know a rescue is there to take the horse back into safe care). . . so what does a contract hurt? I think people should be 100% certain the care they provide is sound &#8211; if you know your ownership gives quality care, you should have no qualms because if it wasn&#8217;t sound and quality care, you would not choose the own the animal, ideally. 

Just wanted to answer some questions about basic rescue since some seemed unsure about how it works or how well it works. 

Harvestgirl, feel free to PM me &#8211; I would love to help you network on this horses and find adoptive homes on contract. I have a plethora of contacts all over this part of the USA. You are doing the RIGHT thing, for certain!

I understand not wanting to answer to anyone about the care of an animal, but when most people look at the big picture, I have found almost every single person very understanding and very supportive of the whole process, and it certainly helps make my life easier.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I know they aren't someone I would feel good about dealing with. Sometimes they really are an okay home or even a good home, but typically, it denotes something subpar

Hmmmmmmmm. Although I thank you for your rescue explanation..this comment gives me pause. The majority of responses on here (3 pages) has been strongly against..to th e point of folks saying they would never rescue with such a contract..so I guess "typically" they are subpar homes?
I would jump through hoops to adopt a horse if I really wanted it. But the part of the contract that bothers me is that it wouldn't truly be MY horse. I know of several rescues that after a year or 2 of jumping through the hoops give you ownership. That makes sense to me. For the rescues that maintain ownership....not for me


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Creamers said:


> Rescues do amazing work when they are legit.
> 
> One of the main reasons to use a rescue is that while you might find a free horse on craiglist, you are just saving that one horse. When you use a rescue, you are helping fund a resource for equine welfare that might extend for hundreds of miles. It is a true way to help in a big way, have an impact on the care of these amazing animals, and in the long run, save many horses from abuse and neglect.


I agree 100%. Especially with the "when they are legit" part. I'm relatively indifferent to the contract wording, but since so many are against it, I advised the OP to check the enforceability.

But I have not been in the horse world long, and I've seen some shady rescues and some failing/failed ones. One "rescue" in my area solicits donations on Craigslist to help out "struggling horse owners"....basically give my money to someone who will give it to the crazy lady who is starving 40 horses in the next town over. (As if a few mere donations can fix THAT situation!) 

I know one person here said they wouldn't want to be a 501(c)(3) organization but the rest of the world see this as a sign that you're not an animal hoarder. So if you're going to do it, do it all the way.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Creamers said:


> I have only encountered a few people consider the numbers of folks that inquire about adoption who have balked at the contract I have require or the contacts other rescues require that I help network with, but typically, the people who seek out rescue are those looking at the big picture. I am thankful for such people. When people do rarely get uncomfortable with the contact, I am glad because it makes my job easier there, too. . .I know they aren't someone I would feel good about dealing with. Sometimes they really are an okay home or even a good home, but typically, it denotes something subpar.
> 
> . . . so what does a contract hurt? I think people should be 100% certain the care they provide is sound â if you know your ownership gives quality care, you should have no qualms because if it wasnât sound and quality care, you would not choose the own the animal, ideally.



I'm sure you didn't mean it that way - but that kind of attitude is part of what turns me off rescues.
That people who <gasp, shock, horror> don't want someone looking over their shoulder _clearly_ have something to hide and offer sub-par care. Which is what you'd expect from someone so small-minded.

Well thank you very much.

One quick question though. If ...


Creamers said:


> ..the people who seek out rescue are those looking at the big picture..
> ..hold up a standard of care and a commitment to equines all over the place..
> ..I can assure you, my horses have a lot better chance at a legitimately good home in the long run..


Then why?


Creamers said:


> ..how many adopters still fill them out and then starve the horse? Lots..
> ..Iâve used them with law enforcement to seize horses back..


Guess I'm just not seeing that Big Picture from the right angle or something.
I'll just go about in my small minded way and buy a horse.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Otter said:


> I'm sure you didn't mean it that way - but that kind of attitude is part of what turns me off rescues.
> That people who <gasp, shock, horror> don't want someone looking over their shoulder _clearly_ have something to hide and offer sub-par care. Which is what you'd expect from someone so small-minded.
> 
> 
> ...


Amen. Some of us enjoy our privacy.... good, responsible horse owners included. With so many irresponsible rescues, how does someone who does a long time lease with you (You don't adopt out horses if you do not actually turn over ownership.) know that you're a responsible rescue? There is a certain amount of trust that must be in place when you adopt or sell a horse or any animal for that matter. If you place 100 horses in ten years, how will you monitor all of them? Contract or not this isn't realistically feasible.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Creamers said:


> First of all, that contract is 100% the norm. Iâve seen many successful rescues have MUCH more stringent contracts. I assure you, they are 100% enforceable. Iâve used them with law enforcement to seize horses back.


While these contracts may be enforceable in your area they may not be in all jurisdictions. 




Creamers said:


> Ask me how important they are. . .how many adopters still fill them out and then starve the horse? Lots.


I believe you're making the same point that everybody who has concerns about such contracts is making.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Otter said:


> Guess I'm just not seeing that Big Picture from the right angle or something. I'll just go about in my small minded way and buy a horse.


Yup. Me and my subpar farm will just have to buy one too.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

What you are getting technically is a long term lease on a horse that you will never own. 

to adopt implies taking on the animal with all the legalities that it entails; i.e. to "adopt" a child is to assume legal and financial responsibility for said child the same as one would for a child of natural birth.

To foster a horse would be to accept responsibility for the horse but to obtain funds for said care from the agency requesting the fostering.

It is advisable for all parties to be very clear on terms and conditions prior to acceptance of a contract so there is no misunderstanding. I advise checking references whether one is the adoptor or adoptee.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

What a bummer for the adoptee to get one of these horses (who all need training) and pour time and money into training and have the possibility that the horse could be taken away. Or not to be able to find another good home after say, the pony was outgrown.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> I think people should be 100% certain the care they provide is sound &#8211; if you know your ownership gives quality care, you should have no qualmsbecause if it wasn&#8217;t sound and quality care, you would not choose the own the animal, ideally.


The problem here is simple, _no two people have the same idea of what good care means_. While I feel I give excellent care for my horses (except the colt's feet are overdue right now :ashamed there are people that would think I was horrible for not putting them in a stall every time it rains or snows or not blanketing them when it's below freezing or because they don't get wormed on a schedule etc. Now I may look at how that same person cares for their horse and feel that they are not giving good care because maybe their horse is IR and getting oats or kept stalled too much or who knows. No one is the same. Now you may say well I wouldn't take your horse away for this or that, but that's when things get tedious. _It wouldn't be the individual's ideals that would turn me off, but rather the simple fact that I would be subject to them, whatever they may end up being._ Why should I be? What if I sold you a car but had a contract that if you didn't keep it clean or keep the oil changed I could take it back? You'd buy a car somewhere else. Because my definition of clean may be different than yours. For some people clean means "like new", for others it means "I can still see my car" and for still others "I can still fit in my car". No, I would rather just own the car and keep it how I see fit. There is just no replacement for not having a boss.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> What a bummer for the adoptee to get one of these horses (who all need training) and pour time and money into training and have the possibility that the horse could be taken away. Or not to be able to find another good home after say, the pony was outgrown.


the horse would NOT be taken away unless there was a legitimate reason for it to be. why aren't people getting that? it's not like i will randomly go to an adoptees house & say " ooh wow, i don't like your feed choice" and remove the horse. hardly!! it's a matter of the horse condition, safety, etc... 

and if someone decide to re-home a pony after they outgrew it, well ~ then i'd not adopt out to them in the first place.

i wish people would understand it's nothing personal AT ALL. i am protecting horses that have already been thru hell. and any horse with me WILL get training, and yep ~ their adoption fee will go up as i will have to pay my trainer.

no need for us all to keep going back & forth ~ i think it's a we agree to disagree type situation.

i am signing papers tomorrow on a farm i will be leasing for the rescue ~ lots to do! thanks everyone for the input, i appreciate it!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

It's not that I would expect that you would, just knowing that you could.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

harvestgirl said:


> and if someone decide to re-home a pony after they outgrew it, well ~ then i'd not adopt out to them in the first place.


How absolutely ridiculous. Are you saying it's bad to re-home an outgrown pony?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> How absolutely ridiculous. Are you saying it's bad to re-home an outgrown pony?


I've seen good steady ponies go through 3-4 families- teach kids in one family, then sold to another to teach their kids, on and on. Usually in the same area! They weren't ponies but my youngest's walk/trot horse and her first rail horse were sold through at least three 4H families, including mine. I believe the rail horse taught three more families after mine. People, especially kids, physically outgrow or their skill level improves beyond what a horse is capable of all the time. 

Good steady ponies don't grow on trees and once outgrown I believe it's dang near a sin to have them sit around gathering dust. 

May I ask how long you've been involved in horses, harvestgirl?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

southerngurl said:


> It's not that I would expect that you would, just knowing that you could.


Exactly, Southerngurl- it's the fact that they _could_ be removed at any time, for any reason.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> The problem here is simple, _no two people have the same idea of what good care means_. While I feel I give excellent care for my horses (except the colt's feet are overdue right now :ashamed there are people that would think I was horrible for not putting them in a stall every time it rains or snows or not blanketing them when it's below freezing or because they don't get wormed on a schedule etc. Now I may look at how that same person cares for their horse and feel that they are not giving good care because maybe their horse is IR and getting oats or kept stalled too much or who knows. No one is the same. Now you may say well I wouldn't take your horse away for this or that, but that's when things get tedious. _It wouldn't be the individual's ideals that would turn me off, but rather the simple fact that I would be subject to them, whatever they may end up being._ Why should I be? What if I sold you a car but had a contract that if you didn't keep it clean or keep the oil changed I could take it back? You'd buy a car somewhere else. Because my definition of clean may be different than yours. *For some people clean means "like new", for others it means "I can still see my car" and for still others "I can still fit in my car". No, I would rather just own the car and keep it how I see fit. There is just no replacement for not having a boss*.


:hysterical::hysterical:
Sorry, that part about the car.....the second one sounds like my car. But I do take excellent care of my animals, but I do like my privacy and it's irritating to have someone inspecting what I'm doing.

I think horse rescues look at everyone like they're abusive. I guess it's the same way with cops. If one is a cop long enough, they start to see everyone as a criminal. It's irritating.


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## CheerfulMom4 (May 21, 2008)

I'm just glad the rescue my friends got their mini horse from let them own him outright. 

They are some of those awful people who would re-home a horse after it was outgrown. You see their daugther loved this horse for years. Now she is into bigger horses and riding. She loves the mini but didn't spend much time with him anymore even though he still got great care.

My daughter is already to big for a mini and is a horse nut who doesn't like big horses. She just loves to brush them and spend time with them. She also wants to take driving lessons. So...they gave us their mini! Now he is getting unbelieveable amounts of attention every day. He is very happy here as he was at his other home.

We do have an agreement that if for some reason something happens here we will give him back to them. I just find it crazy to suggest someone who would rehome an outgrown pony or horse isn't worthy of adopting an animal.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

harvestgirl said:


> the horse would NOT be taken away unless there was a legitimate reason for it to be. why aren't people getting that? it's not like i will randomly go to an adoptees house & say " ooh wow, i don't like your feed choice" and remove the horse. hardly!! it's a matter of the horse condition, safety, etc...


The problem is sweetie - we've only your word on that. I'm sure the contract says something vague like "properly fed". To most of us that means the horse is in good flesh - but I have met lots of people (some of them rescues) who feel that it means grain and sometimes lots of it - I've seen to the point of hoof and kidney problems.
Are you that kind of rescue?
Well, we don't know, do we? Not till someone comes banging on our door all upset that a TB looks like a TB and not a fat little QH and decides we're "not feeding it properly"
Do you want to put up a poll and ask how many of us have personally known a rescue to do such a thing?



harvestgirl said:


> and if someone decide to re-home a pony after they outgrew it, well ~ then i'd not adopt out to them in the first place.


Wow.
See now to _me_ - that sort of thinking is borderline neglect. I've got a 10 yo and I'll be looking for a good pony for her by summer. What would be *PERFECT* for her now will be outgrown in about 2 years - both in size and skill.
What's the poor little thing to do? Get fat in a field? After all the attention and riding and shows it's supposed to be happy with a brush down once a day and a walk?
Personally I've got a niece, and then another, and then my son would be old enough. Often they do the rounds of local families. A good pony is a treasure - why bury it?

Let me tell you a story (because I've been working horses a while) about a gelding named Sable. Sable was a top-notch hunter. USET level. Like some horses who are passionate he showed no sign until the course was done, but after the run he was lame with a bowed tendon. They tried to pasture rest him but he had other ideas and bowed the other. He ended up with a year of hand-walking and stall rest and finally he could work again but never jump. Oh, you should have seen him when it was _his_ stall you were coming to with a saddle!
He was a perfect gentleman. 
Far too well-mannered to take a step without his riders permission.
But when he saw a jump he would _lean_ towards it.
He _wanted_ to work, he _loved_ to work. Bad enough for him that jumping was gone but if you took _everything_? If you had tried to retire him to a field he'd have killed himself (nearly did). Why would you take that from him just because he had to change riders? 

And another, named Dusty. Twenty eight years old. But in his mind he was forever 6 and the tiny little cross-rails that he leapt were huge fences. It delighted him so much that sometimes he'd do a Buck of Joy (all of 3 inches up). When you led a saddled horse past his stall he'd get angry and kick the wall. And if you moved him to the side to let a faster horse pass him he'd grab the bit in his teeth and "run away" with you. When you called out "Whoa Dusty!" he'd arch his neck and prick his ears, so pleased with himself.
Would you have the heart to tell him "I'm sorry, you've been outgrown. Here's a field, forever."?
I wouldn't.




harvestgirl said:


> i am signing papers tomorrow on a farm i will be leasing for the rescue ~ lots to do! thanks everyone for the input, i appreciate it!


Congrats on your lease, and all the best to you.
LOL, that last one is starting to feel like "shut up already". Threads drift. No one would be offended if you bowed out of this one - but we likely will ramble on for a while.


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## barnbrat76 (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm a little curious about something. If the farm you are leasing is for the rescue than have you gotten the 501c3 paperwork back or is the farm being leased to you directly? I just went thru the LLC process (not for horses I'm a CMT) and that took a month to get everything back and I didn't need board members and all the other paperwork hoops you have to jump thru.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> How absolutely ridiculous. Are you saying it's bad to re-home an outgrown pony?


if it's has come from my rescue? that's exactly what i am saying. do you know how many out grown ponies are in kill pens each week? too many.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

barnbrat76 said:


> I'm a little curious about something. If the farm you are leasing is for the rescue than have you gotten the 501c3 paperwork back or is the farm being leased to you directly? I just went thru the LLC process (not for horses I'm a CMT) and that took a month to get everything back and I didn't need board members and all the other paperwork hoops you have to jump thru.


nope, still waiting on the non-proft. it's being leased to me directly, yes.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

harvestgirl said:


> if it's has come from my rescue? that's exactly what i am saying. do you know how many out grown ponies are in kill pens each week? too many.


Which is why only well-intentioned but naive people who don't know much about horses are pretty much the only people who adopt horses from rescues.

Because most rescues are run by well-intentioned but naive people who don't know much about horses.

From what I've read of your posts here...I'd say you're in that majority.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

It really should be called fostering a horse, not adopting, with that type of contract.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Vile, spoiled, ill mannered and bad tempered ponies end up in kill pens and good ponies are like gold - hard to find but incredibly rewarding when you find one.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Which is why only well-intentioned but naive people who don't know much about horses are pretty much the only people who adopt horses from rescues.
> 
> Because most rescues are run by well-intentioned but naive people who don't know much about horses.
> 
> From what I've read of your posts here...I'd say you're in that majority.





wr said:


> Vile, spoiled, ill mannered and bad tempered ponies end up in kill pens and good ponies are like gold - hard to find but incredibly rewarding when you find one.


Exactly. Good, steady ponies will rarely end up in a kill pen, they're simply too valuable. The level headed, who could trail ride _and_ show, ponies usually have "dibs" already put on them before the current owner has outgrown them. 

Anyone that has been involved in horses for any length of times knows this as fact.


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## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Exactly. Good, steady ponies will rarely end up in a kill pen, they're simply too valuable. The level headed, who could trail ride _and_ show, ponies usually have "dibs" already put on them before the current owner has outgrown them.


 
Agreed- there's a pony I trim that I've had my eye on for years- every time I go there I offer to give her a home. Owner's retired from breeding and she is doing nothing but being a well-cared for pasture pet. An Erin Go Bragh daughter that would be a gorgeous driving pony!


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Which is why only well-intentioned but naive people who don't know much about horses are pretty much the only people who adopt horses from rescues.
> 
> Because most rescues are run by well-intentioned but naive people who don't know much about horses.
> 
> From what I've read of your posts here...I'd say you're in that majority.


Well, I think this might be an exaggeration. I know several seasoned horse people who have gotten horses from rescues, and I will tell you that the rescue my boarder got her mare from was phenomenal. FWIW, it was very clear that only part of their business was the "rescue", and that they had some serious money behind their farm & business. (I'd like them to rescue me, too.) 

I do agree that lots of useless and untrained horses end up in kill pens, but rarely do you find talented and well-trained horses there. Sometimes, yes, of course.....but most of the time what goes through the auction and ends up in the kill pens are the horses that are NOT worth very much. Racehorses in the kill pen is nothing new.....they are not worth much if they aren't racing and winning. Sad but true. 

To the OP, you should inquire with other established, successful rescues and see how they handled the situation of a well-trained, out-grown pony. Do they allow it to be resold with their consent, do they just want to be notified, etc.? I can't believe that this type of pony would never be allowed to be resold for what it's worth (a solid packer pony in my area would easily sell for $5-$10K+)....or required to be returned to the rescue only to be "adopted" out again for a mere $700 or something. 

How do other rescue organizations handle this -- because it MUST happen.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

When a two year period has passed, the adopters have a final check and then are given ownership of the horse. If they ever want to give it back, we accept it- but at that point, it's theirs to do with as they wish. Been goin' for twelve years, so I guess we've got it down pat 

And I agree- a GOOD pony is worth MORE than it's weight in gold.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

offthegrid said:


> How do other rescue organizations handle this -- because it MUST happen.


In my experience - it actually doesn't really happen. Just because there are so few well-trained ponies in rescue. Generally rescue horses being touted as "Ideal child's mount" is either so old or lame that they can't get up to serious antics (as opposed to being well trained) so lazy that your child is in no danger as the horse won't take a step. Or just gentle and trained enough that you can lead a kid around on it or it will wander around a pen or follow another horse on a trail and not intentionally lose the kid on it's back.

And yes, these often unsound, nothing spectacular horses do sometimes end up in kill pens.
If you adopt one of these from a rescue, they expect you to keep it as a pasture pet. No-one is beating down the door for them.

The only (and very rare) cases of what you or I would call "an ideal child's mount" with a rescue is when someone adopts a youngster and puts the insane amounts of work in that makes a horse so.
In the only cases I have personal knowledge of, when the horse/pony gets that kind of name for itself, suddenly the rescue discovers the poor thing is being overworked and trained with brutal methods  and wants to seize it. Should they succeed, there is a "charity fundraiser auction", sometimes "by invite only" (to be sure it gets a good home - of course)

I know one person who got a lawyer and fought and won full ownership. Pretty little white mare she "adopted" as a yearling. She'd show off at schooling shows. She'd whistle and the mare would jump out of her pasture and gallop to her, the girl would mount bareback and bridleless and they'd go round a course. This was about 16 years ago on LI.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I didn't mean rescues offering ponies as children's mounts. I don't think I've ever seen a rescue describe a horse as an "ideal child's mount"; but you do see that all the time on Craigslist. The few rescues I've seen describe their horses as prospects, or not at all.

What I meant was that it would seem quite common that someone would get a young, untrained horse from a rescue and put a lot of work into it.....and then have their circumstances change. They outgrow it, they no longer want to ride, lose their job, kids off to college, get sick, die, etc. 

How do other rescues handle these situations? They MUST happen. So do the rescues require them to return them to the rescue organization, or do they give permission for them to sell them for market value? Or something else?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

offthegrid said:


> What I meant was that it would seem quite common that someone would get a young, untrained horse from a rescue and put a lot of work into it.....


Again, that's pretty rare.
Think of most of the responses to this thread. Most of us who've been in horses long enough to actually train a project horse the right way won't get one from a rescue.
The rescue is often stuck with them until they're spoiled. (too much lovey handling on young, untrained horses makes spoiled hellions. I call it Black Beauty Syndrome.) If someone does take on a youngster it is often with more enthusiasm then knowledge (Woohoo, I bought a Clint Anderson DVD - I am a horse trainer) or the idea of giving it 30 days with a trainer. Which is a nice start - but that's all it is.

Sometimes you end up with a horse that is ridable. Even the ridable ones are often pattern trained, ie; we walk down by the pond, then trot, walk again by the fence line, a little canter past the tree and then walk home. Put anyone on them, and that's what they do. Move them somewhere else and you can sit on them and that's about it. They don't have their circuit - they stand there. Or occasionally freak.

It is _very_ rare for someone knowledgeable enough to take a horse to competition level (any competition, you name it) to adopt a horse from a rescue unless it is an _actual_ adoption. Like from the pound - you fill out an app, they check your references, if all clears you pay your fee and OWN your animal.

Otherwise, experienced horse people are too experienced to get involved. We go "rescue" our own.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't know, I think your personal experience might be very different than mine. My boarder's aunt owns a riding stable and she grew up riding in our little town. (ETA, I guess we're not so little: the high school graduates about 800 kids a year), just outside of the state capital. She got a thoroughbred from a very respectable rescue that doesn't seem to have any "extra" horses - in fact, they have NONE right now. The horse was sound and sensible, and was rehabbed for 6 weeks and ridden for the last 3 weeks. The 6 year old ex-racehorse already has a solid W-T-C, and will be shown locally this year in HUS and hopefully low hunters. 

I don't think her experience is all that uncommon. Then again, there are a lot of TB rescue/adoption programs in NY, so maybe that is the difference. Lots of people get OTTBs from rescues or adoption programs to show on the local H/J circuit. Most people I know have at least one horsey friend who has an ex-racehorse from some rescue or another, many of them being shown. Obviously many of these organizations deal with a lot of other breeds other than TBs, but maybe the abundance of ex-racing TBs makes a difference.

I do, however, still say that a huge factor is the respectability of the rescue. I went with my boarder to see the horse at the rescue she was interested in, mainly because I was going to make her leave if it was just a crazy lady on a farm in the boonies. As many have said, there are more than enough available horses for sale *anywhere* rather than deal with a shady rescue organization.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Actually I grew up in NYC. Studied ag, got a 2 year degree in horse care on LI.
Most of the OTTB rescues I knew of then are ones where you OWN the horse. Big difference.

It's not rescue the way most people in other parts of the country think of it. The TB trainers have a network and funnel horses coming off the track into other careers. And as you mentioned, most of these horses are "sound and sensible". I've worked with plenty. Middle of the pack runners drive race trainers _insane_ but generally make very good mounts when they know their rider. So you can buy (rescue) a horse that was 100,000 at the yearling sales for 4-500 bucks because they may have all the speed in the world but wont open up in a race.

Mean, crazy or unsound TBs tend to end up in the other sort of rescue with the objectionable (to me, anyway) contract.

As I said, the rescues where you fill out an application, they vet your references, pass you, take your adoption fee and then you OWN the horse - totally different story. I think this is the sort of rescues you're dealing with, they are the OTTB rescues I knew of. But please find out for us, do you own the horse when dealing with this rescue or do they retain ownership?


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Otter said:


> But please find out for us, do you own the horse when dealing with this rescue or do they retain ownership?


I will ask my boarder today. I am going to guess, however, that it is a contract where the rescue retains ownership. BUT, which is why I think the OP should contact some good rescue organizations -- I think that they are likely to be lenient in their enforcement of this portion of the contract. I could be wrong, but based on my limited interaction with them, I would guess that their overall position is they just don't want the horse to wind up in rescue again. So perhaps they just ask for notification of change of location/ownership? I don't know. I will find out.

And since I keep singing their praises, here is their website: http://squirrelwoodequinesanctuaryinc.org/


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

There is a lady here in Texas, Lynn Reardon (she's a neighbor and acquaintance, actually), that helps find home for retired or non-running OTTB's. It's actually more of a placement service than a rescue. It's called LOPE (Lone Star Outreach to Place ex-racehorses). She does have a ranch that they come and hang out at until they can be rehomed, she rehabs them (if needed), rides them and assesses them and then places them. As far as I know potential owners are screened by an application process, but then they own the horse. 

It's a very successful program and gaining increased notoriety, she's also written a lovely book about her experiences, Beyond The Homestretch. She has established a good network with the various tracks in the state, and most often the owners/trainers call her for help finding homes for the wash-outs, injured, or retired horses they love and care for. She's found second career and retirement homes for many of her horses, and is genuinely passionate about her work.

But to me, that's not a rescue. To me a rescue is more like the group my sister works with, that take in the animals close to death, starved, mistreated and seized by law enforcement when at death's door. They take theses animals, feed them, care for them and get them healthy again, and foster them through a network of members until they find new homes. They don't have to scour auction barns to find horses that need help, too many folks bring them to them and they are full with seized and owner-surrendered horses right now. I don't have the specifics of their adoption program, but I do know there is an application and approval process as well.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

While I'd not be interested in leasing a horse from you, I have a couple of questions. If you're renting land, will you live on the property? Does the landlord know about your plans? Do you have really good farm insurance? Liability insurance? I'm just wondering how expensive liability insurance would be for such a long term leasing situation. If you retain ownership of the horses you may well retain liability until the horse dies.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Offthegrid, I contacted the rescue and asked for a copy of their paperwork. Basically, you own the horse but they keep Right of First Refusal. Price isn't mentioned, so one may have to get a lawyer if there is a difference between "adoption price" and your selling price, if your selling price reflects the training you've put into the horse.
I wouldn't touch it myself. They also (paraphrasing for shortness) that if you don't give them the desired follow-up the sale is void and in case of any disputes they get physical custody of the horse until the matter is legally resolved.

It kind of makes me wonder if people aren't using them as a kind of lease, since horse leasing is so very prevalent in that area and the adoption fee - while a little pricey considering the current market - is still a little less then your average one year lease.

Joshie, there are TWO whole long paragraph in separate sections about how they are NOT responsible for ANYTHING _including_ misrepresenting the horse.
Here's a sample from one of them;
_The undersigned Adopter understands that **** is a referral service and is not responsible for the accuracy of information received about temperament, habits, history or physical condition of Horses available for adoption. Adopter understand **** is in no way liable or responsible for any damage, accident or injury resulting from the actions of a Horse placed with Adopter and _


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks Otter for doing the followup! I have weekend guests and haven't gotten to it yet.

I actually like the wording of that contracts for a rescue....so, Right of First Refusal -- would mean (am I right?) that I find a buyer for my horse, but before the deal goes through I contact the rescue and say "I have a buyer for my horse for $5000.....but since you have first refusal, do you want to buy him back instead?" I would imagine they would not object to selling the horse for that price and would approve the sale.

In contrast, I can't afford the horse anymore and listed it on Craigslist for $500 and find a buyer. I contact the rescue and tell them "I have a buyer for $500" they might say -- "no, we'll buy him for $510.....". I can't imagine the owner being upset that the rescue would buy the horse back, do you?

Obviously if you don't trust them to begin with, that's a problem. I think one of the greatest advertising a rescue could have would be a picture of a muddy horse in the kill pen, and then a picture of that horse in work or showing, especially if it's value increased significantly. Therefore I think a GOOD rescue would LOVE to know one of their horses has done well and if it's being sold to another home they would only object if they think the horse is in danger. 

With regard to followup, I'm sure their followup depends on the circumstances. They have never come here, but I know my boarder has sent them pictures and emails (some of which are on that website!)  so perhaps they only perform the followup visits if they are concerned....and I don't have a problem with that.

PS...the "rescued rescue mare" that my trainer picked up over the winter for $200 went to her first show yesterday. [My kids didn't show but in lessons the mare is still a bit pot-bellied, thin along the topline, still working on putting together a nice canter, some of her joints click (she's 18).] So yesterday two other kids rode her -- she placed in all her classes, and seemed like she'd shown her whole life. Did two x-rail courses and was a superstar, landed every lead correctly except one, and pulled out a beautiful flying change no one knew she had.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I've done secretary work by the piece, sometimes for lawyers, enough that vague wording worries me.
What they say is that they have to sign off before you can sell the horse. Legally, that breaks down to Right of First Refusal, which _should_ work in just the way you say.

But because of the not-specific-enough wording of it there is potential for abuse, and you as the horse owner would be screwed because they reserve the right to seize the horse during ANY dispute with the rescue.
So it's one of those things that may or may not ever be an issue.

My thing is this. Horses live a long time. How long were you at your last job? Five years? Ten? Suppose the rescue that you love and trust gets a new administrator in 10 years who chooses to interpret this not-specific-enough wording differently from the last one - what then?
I'd rather see the whole durn thing written out, even if it seems more restrictive,as in "We the rescue reserve the right to approve any and all future homes of this horse and to extend to new owners our support and services. Should we feel that a potential owner is not up to our standards, we reserve right of first refusal to buy the horse at the owner's selling price or fair market value as determined by an independent appraiser, whichever is lesser"
or even
"we remain co-owner of this horse and the adopter is secondary co-owner. Co-ownership may not transfer hands without approval of both parties (the _both_ would protect the adopter) and in case of dispute, we reserve the right to buy the secondary co-owner's interest at secondary co-owner's selling price or fair market value as determined by an independent appraiser, whichever is lesser"

Because otherwise the whole works is up for dispute and in any dispute you lose your horse.

And - I send pictures. If I get an animal from you and you are at all interested, and sometimes even if you're not - I send pictures. That's just the way I am. But even so it would irritate me no end to have to take a head shot, hoof shots and both side full body shots every 3 months <with no stated limit ie, 5 years from now you're still taking photos> or you can holler _breach of contract_ and come take my horse.
-BUT- I'd be happy to send those photos for a year, I'd even send farrier and vet records, if after a year they'd be happy and sign off on me - with the knowledge that should something untoward happen their support is there.
Because I would LIKE to be able to work with a rescue, really I would - but all the trust is on my side and all the advantage on theirs.
And as I said, if I wanted to deal with all that on and on forever - I work other people's horses all the time. But I don't pay them, they pay _me_. This is why they get everything their way and I jump through all the hoops.

That is why _to me_, the greatest advertising a rescue can have is someone who adopted a horse from them 10 years ago and has been happy ever since. And I haven't met that person yet, so I'll just do what your trainer did, and go buy (rescue) my own. It sounds like she got a real gem.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I do have to say that we have ten year adopters who are happy, as well as repeat adopters. Having a good adoption committee and good, sensible contracts go a LONG way towards ensuring everything goes smoothly. We've only had to repo a handful of horses in the past almost twelve years, but if needed, LE has been available for back-up. We've had several returned, for whatever reason, as well. Those who were able were adopted back out, those who weren't were euthanized.


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