# Curs and lacy dogs



## Redd89 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hello everyone! I'm in need of some advice on curs. Honestly, I really like just about everything I read online about them, including what I read here. About their protectiveness, intelligence, incredible ability to stop renegade cattle, grit, tracking ability and just all around athleticism. Honestly, it sounds far too good to be true. So, let's be honest, are they an incredibly hard headed breed that will sometimes just ignore commands and go on nothing but impulse? You know, the notorious hound mentality that makes it so much more difficult to train them to do a task that they might know, but don't care to do? What I'm really wanting is exactly what I've read above, but the problem being, is I work on a cattle ranch and use low stress cattle handling methods, while I've been made aware of how rough they can be on stock. This is really the biggest concern I have. If I call him off the cattle or tell him easy, I mean do it now. Not in ten, five or even one second later. I don't doubt their ability to understand the command, I'm worried about responsiveness. Anyway, with herding being my main priority, is there anyone who knows the better lines suited for this job? Or is maybe one cur dog better suited than the other? I really have my eyes set on either a black mouth cur or lacy dog. And will the lacy dog's smaller build have an effect on its ability to deter or attack wild animals or wild people for that matter? (I go on long camping trips alone and need something to have my back) I apologise about the long post, but I really want to make the most informed decision possible before forming a partnership of any kind. Any experience or knowledge about these dogs or specific lines will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, all!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Well, a few things. I have never had a Lacey, have had several BMCs, as well as Mt. Curs. Mt. Curs will work as a hunting dog that stays in the yard until it is time to go hunting, not bother livestock and chickens, and tree kill or chase away (but not very far) any vermin that come around. Ladner bred BMCs seem to be a lot like a mountain cur, can be trained to bark at a cow, but not much in the way of the classic cur cattle working instinct. I have had Ladners and Carnathans. The Carnathans, and from what I have heard, the JD Howard and Weatherford Ben lines are more the classic BMC cattle dogs.

The curs are very different dogs. If you want something to follow complex commands, and do things your way, get a border collie or something. They have very different instincts, with a natural inclination to "head" cattle instead of "heeling". Depending on your level of training, and ability to train, they can work quite well. 

The natural instinct is for them to seek out the livestock or game you start them on, by scent, visual recognition or prior knowledge. Once found, they put all individuals into a bunch, and hold them there barking, until you, the alpha dog, arrive. Any animal that attempts to leave the group, move, or challenge the dog(s), is met with force. The intensity of that force depends on that animals willingness to go hide amongst the herd. Never saw a calf bitten, saw a stubborn old cow that tried to challenge the dog get grabbed by the nose while charging, and by some sort of dog kung fu, get her nose pulled into the ground which flipped her over on her back. The dog jumped over her and nipped her on the tail and she got up and went back to the herd, and never from that day forward did anything but try to get in the middle of the herd, when she saw a dog coming.

When you, if you are in fact the alpha dog, arrive, you can move the entire herd. A true cur dog will get on the other side of the herd from you and back up barking. The herds attention will focus on the dog, and they will try to get out of your way, and end up following the backing up dog. The old timers in Texas have been known to shoot a dog that crossed between a rider and cattle, this is supposedly how they fixed this trait in their dogs. Puppies should back up and bite your shoe laces as you walk if they possess these traits.

I never trained mine but a few commands, as I make no claims to being a dog trainer. I taught them "get in the pen" and "get in the truck", I never really had to touch them. I taught them "gitem" and "ahhght", they are the opposite of each other. Basically on and off. I could basically leave them on , and the cattle would still be bunched much later. By alternating those commands, I could single out an animal, it kind of played off of what I was doing on foot or on four wheeler, though. I could single out a neighbors bull, and walk him back to the neighbor's gate and have the dog(s) hold him till I got it open, and put him through. I did teach the old female I had, "gate", I would ride through and open a gate and give the command, and after a while she figured out that that was where she needed to walk backwards to.

The dogs did become very popular, there was a lot of breeding, so there are some consistency issues. I had a problem with a male, he considered me alpha dog, but he wouldn't consider anyone else alpha. He would work cattle like a dream, (too rough for sheep), go out at night carrying a gun and he would get gone and start barking treed on a ****. Carry a gun in the woods in daylight and he was a squirrel treeing machine. Whoa be unto the person that was not me that tried to pick a squirrel off the ground at his tree. He was too aggressive. Break chain and puncture strange vehicle's tires aggressive. Get loose while I'm not home and make people get in their car and make "my" people stay in the house aggressive. Nobody got time for that.

It was supposedly one bad breeding, and that has been weeded out now. My others barked when strangers came up, but you had to watch that one. I ended up building a lot of cattle handling facilities and better fences, and found myself using dogs less and less, I don't have a BMC now. I miss them. For years after my old female died, I could take my little Mt. Cur, and the cattle respected her, she would yap a couple times and the cows would leave the hayfield they weren't supposed to be in. With the curs, it is as much training the cows as training the dog. Resistance is futile. 

Unless you have a big place, with bad fences, and a lot of cows, I would be of the opinion that the BMC is too much dog for you, and maybe a less "true cow dog" style cur might fit the bill OK, if you just want a chicken protector/hunting dog that will bark at a cow that gets out of the pen once in a while


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## Redd89 (Jun 27, 2016)

Wow, I really appreciate the response. That was a hoard of great information. I actually work a moderately sized ranch (approximately 1500 head) and we have a lot of crick bottom ground full of underbrush that it would be an excellent help having something like this. I do most of my work from horseback and really could train any dog to just flush cattle out of the brush I can't ride through. The main reason I'm looking into curs and laceys, is more for when we have cattle get out and have a hell of a time getting caught or held. But I also want the dog to stay with me until I give the command to get to work. So basically, if they don't mind staying with someone on horseback and waiting to"get'em" while also having an "easy" and "that'll do" switch, I think it will work out very well. I suppose I was more worried about them bolting on anything that twitched in the woods without any chance of call back. And here's a possibly dumb question, but has anybody trained them to bring cattle to the truck when they won't come in on their own? Would've been handy many times when I was feeding miles away and the horses were still in the barn. It sounds like I would've really liked your old female black mouth cur. If they canhelp you sort one off in the pasture then put it through the gate for you, I feel like that dog would be worth its weight in gold.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

All of the curs I have had have been very handler oriented. I work off four wheeler, and they generally would be right by my side or out front a little. Mine would go off on a squirrel if they caught wind of one, but I did shoot squirrels out to them. They were very easy to get back, if that wasn't what I wanted to do at the time. 

They can be hard headed, it has to be within their instinct parameters, or it won't work. I don't know whether send and gather is in their programming. They can be jealous, and you might run into performance issues if you don't have the right dogs grouped together, (either sulking or over-competing). They tend to be one person dogs, don't expect a good bond to form with an older dog. Even with lots of socializing, you may be the only person that can get your hands on some of them, but one or two other close family members might be able to make them load in a truck or get in their kennel. They don't take well to heavy handedness, a harsh tone is usually all it takes.

If you don't want them to hunt, don't encourage them, and don't shoot stuff out of trees for them. My old female would turn off if you tried to pleasure **** hunt her and she noticed you weren't carrying a gun. She was a fair **** dog, treed a bobcat once, would blood trail wounded deer, had a coyote break a trap chain once, and she trailed him up and held him until I could get there and shoot him, but I encouraged her to do that kind of thing as well as work cattle. I could hunt where there were cattle, mine would never bother cattle until you sicked them on cattle, I'm sure if you didn't handle them right they would go work cattle on their own, which I wouldn't consider a good thing, but it might work for some people.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I run catahoulas on hogs and will be putting mine on cattle to see what they will do. I found a guy about a hour away from me (I live in Bel Aire, KS, very close to Wichita) who does cur dog trails every year and is willing to let me bring my dogs over to get started on cattle. He is of the opinion that they need to be started on hogs because when they switch over to cattle, they will be less intinimated on cattle and you will know that the dog already will work livestock. My male is already working on hogs and my two females haven't been on hogs so I'm going to be getting them started sometime this month. I had a blue lacy (they can get small as 25 lbs and the breed standard is they can't be over 55 lbs) which I had to give to the in laws after he got his front leg severely injured to the point that when he gets tired, he starts to limp real fast. Lacys typically don't like children unless they're raised with them. They tend to be nippy dogs when they're young. I prefer catahoulas but I also like blackmouth curs. I just prefer catahoulas. I'm posting a few pics of my male, Frankie, on hogs.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

If you have access to quality internet with good speed, I recommend that you look at Youtube videos of catahoulas working cattle. I'll post a few here so you'll see what they're capable of.

Loading up cattle:[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx2vq-eTwzM[/ame]

Working cattle:[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIgrHXgnGM8[/ame]

Working cattle maybe a bit rough but honestly once cattle are dog broke, they tend to stay together:[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupw3c3NyvY[/ame]

You can see more videos on Youtube. 

I'm hoping I'm able to get my dogs cattle work because my dogs have tons of cattle dogs along with hog hunting dogs in their pedigrees.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

I would not advise a catahoula to anyone without a lot of dog experience personally. I owned them in the South growing up. I would run Black Mouth Cur


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Blackmouth cur and catahoulas are from the same family branch of curs. Someone just preferred the yellow, black/tan, brindle phases of the catahoula and kept repeatedly breeding only those colors and that's how you get the blackmouth cur. Catahoulas have the merle coloring (called leopard markings in catahoula lingo) and you have to be conscious on which dogs to breed from and expect to cull or have a plan to handle the ones born excessively white because they can be deaf or blind or have seizures. They also can have bad hearts or a combination of all of that. Both breeds have the similar working styles on cattle/hogs and similar temperament.


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## nlev85 (Jun 20, 2013)

I just got my second BMC puppy. My 7 year BMC is heathy and in his prime. I have a Rottie too, but for farm life the BMC can't be beat for my situation. He knows the livestock well and does a pretty good job of protecting them as well as exploring the farm for possums, *****, and rabbit. When the .22LR gets shot, he gets by my side and waits for my blessing to go get the prize. They are hard headed and very unique. I can only hope my new pup is anything like my 7 year.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Redd89 said:


> So basically, if they don't mind staying with someone on horseback and waiting to"get'em" while also having an "easy" and "that'll do" switch, I think it will work out very well. I suppose I was more worried about them bolting on anything that twitched in the woods without any chance of call back. And here's a possibly dumb question, but has anybody trained them to bring cattle to the truck when they won't come in on their own? Would've been handy many times when I was feeding miles away and the horses were still in the barn.



You can also use a border collie for this. Gathering, loading in the trailer, sorting, etc. 
Check out cattledogsonly on Facebook for some videos and info on using dogs on cattle.


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## PrairieClover (Jun 19, 2015)

Have you looked at Kelpies? 

We got a cheap pup advertised as a mixed border collie litter pup. At 8 weeks she was herding us in the front yard, nipping our heels.
After researching, we figured she must have been a mix of blue heeler and kelpie. Her mother was a heeler, but she looks like a kelpie.
She has endless stamina, with better training she could be more obedient, but she is always alert and is not the friendliest with strangers(like blue heelers). She is territorial.
I have never seen a dog run as fast she runs. 
Just my 2 cents.
Do a google search. There are kelpie breeders in the U.S. 
You can also look at ranch world ads dot com for photos.

Edited to add:
I have a friend with BMC. He uses them for wild hog hunting.


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## Redd89 (Jun 27, 2016)

I apologize for not really being online to respond, lately. And thanks everyone for your input, including the videos. Honestly, if I were to only use the dog for cattle work, I would probably just get a hanging tree. But, since I would like to do several jobs and am really a one dog kind of guy, I feel like a hanging tree or other primarily stock dog wouldn't quite fit the bill. I'm aware of exceptions, but in general, a border collie, Kelpie, hanging tree, ect aren't a good choice for something that's also a blood trailing, trapping, shed hunting or even sometimes "wild" cattle catching/herding dog. What I was hoping to see from this thread, was whether or not the cur or lacy would be what I was looking for in a stock dog since they seem to excel in all the other areas I'm interested in. Again, I thank everyone for the time they took to respond to my questions and I still appreciate any and all advice!


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Got this female from the local animal shelter. They didn't worm her or give her meds for cocci infection that she had and she still proved to be very housebroken. Right now, she's been wormed and the cocci infection cleared up with medicines. Very gritty. I suspect she is also perhaps part greyhound. She has a very deep chest which is not in an average catahoula's body type. I plan to put her on hogs soon to see what she will do. I got her for almost free because she was sick with kennel cough and the animal shelter was trying to get rid of her so she wouldn't infect the whole place.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

TedH71 said:


> Got this female from the local animal shelter. They didn't worm her or give her meds for cocci infection that she had and she still proved to be very housebroken. Right now, she's been wormed and the cocci infection cleared up with medicines. Very gritty. I suspect she is also perhaps part greyhound. She has a very deep chest which is not in an average catahoula's body type. I plan to put her on hogs soon to see what she will do. I got her for almost free because she was sick with kennel cough and the animal shelter was trying to get rid of her so she wouldn't infect the whole place.


From the pound it's anybody's guess, but that dog looks more leopard than catahoula to me. Might even be a July, every once in a while they can come merled or brindled. I always thought there was some running dog in the leopards by the way they are built. You will know by how she runs a track, if it's in there.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Yeah, I'll find out once I put her on hogs. Doubt she would be a July but that is a very distinct possibility. Julys are not at all common in the mid-west.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Lots of Julys in Indiana and Illinois. Anywhere people coyote hunt.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Huh. I know little to nothing about any curs. What do you guys mean by a July dog? Got me all curious and excited now.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The July, like the Goodman, Trigg, Walker, Penmarydel and a few others is a strain of American Foxhound. July was a particular stud dog, used so much it is said, that he went and hid when he heard a wagon approaching. His sister June, died too young, but July marked all of his pups, with shorter ears than normal, and a rough hair coat, usually not the greatest voice, and probably the best speed on track of any scenthound. Color was never selected for in a dog of function, and due undoubtedly from the amount of outcrossing that he did, July's can come in just about any color, and because merles are flashy, I think a lot of today's breeders do select for it. See some maltese colored dogs as well as a lot of pale (lemon) tricolors. Used to be a lot of merle goodmans around, but they are all but extinct. Last I heard there was a guy in Texas and a guy in New England that still had goodman's.

I have long been of the opinion that the old timey foxhound played heavily in the makeup of the various cur breeds (or possibly vice versa) and it is pretty well documented that they were largely responsible for the various treehound breeds that are popularly recognized today. Of the cur breeds, the american leopard, now more correctly recognized as hound, is the one that shares a lot of traits with american foxhounds particularly of the July strain.

Here is some light reading.

http://weisair.net/foxhistory.htm

Perhaps in the near future, I can start a thread devoted to old timey American Foxhounds.


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## Redd89 (Jun 27, 2016)

Barnbilder, you really seem like the go-to guy for questions about curs and hounds. Anyway, I was wondering, when I read a description of a dog, it will read something like, "....desire to please, lots of heart, agility and bottom...". What is meant by "bottom"? I've googled it and have had absolutely no luck.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Bottom, is that ability for a dog, horse person whatever to reach down cinch up their belt and keep working when their body tells them to quit. It is mental more than physical. 

Hounds whether July or whatever else do not make the best cattle/working dogs, i have found that hunting wild/rank cattle I don't want a dog to open till it is looking at the cow and it is too late for them to run. 


I had Cats, and BMC as a kid, Currently I have a CatxBMCxAmerican bulldog, and strangely enough a german short hair pointer I use to pen cattle. 

One of the desired traits of the cur dog is their ability to work independently and make decisions.

Jim


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## Homesteadwi5 (Mar 16, 2008)

We run Cat X Rhodesian they handle well very protective will run off anything they feel shouldnt be near your place, up to and including people


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