# They're Watching You



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26231181/

"The Justice Department has proposed a new domestic spying measure that would make it easier for state and local police to collect intelligence about Americans, share the sensitive data with federal agencies and retain it for at least 10 years."

There's never been a better time to go off the grid.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Ernie said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26231181/
> 
> "The Justice Department has proposed a new domestic spying measure that would make it easier for state and local police to collect intelligence about Americans, share the sensitive data with federal agencies and retain it for at least 10 years."
> 
> There's never been a better time to go off the grid.



You're just paranoid.
They don't care about you.
I don't do anything wrong, why would I care.
REMEMBER 9/11!!~!~~~! PERIOD!~
If they want to watch my boring life, that's fine... they'll find out about chickens.
Tin Foiler!
(Sorry, just figured I would get all those out of the way and let those who think it's not big deal just pick a numbered response.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

#5.....


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

seedspreader said:


> (Sorry, just figured I would get all those out of the way and let those who think it's not big deal just pick a numbered response.





Those who will willingly put the slave collars on their own necks would also willingly put one on mine.


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

I'd like to know how to prevent being spied upon. I'd like to know how to disappear. PM is fine. 

Oh, and I *am* a tin foiler. lol


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## TexasArtist (May 4, 2003)

sorry Seedspreader but you've got your numbers outta order. Press 1 is for english and press 2 is for spanish. Then you continue on down the line:goodjob:



seedspreader said:


> You're just paranoid.
> They don't care about you.
> I don't do anything wrong, why would I care.
> REMEMBER 9/11!!~!~~~! PERIOD!~
> ...


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There's a handful of ways to limit being spied upon. Don't own a cellphone and if you do, buy one of those "pay as you go" cellphones that you can pay cash for and don't have to sign anything. That's what the drug dealers do and our government hasn't been very competent in removing all of them. 

Facial recognition cameras are becoming more prevalent. Change your appearance frequently, as much as possible. Grow a beard if you're a man, then shave it off the next year. Always try to look different than your driver's license photo. Non-descript is the watchword. 

Pay cash for as many purchases as you can. Sign nothing. Don't use discount or credit cards that can be traced back to you. Don't shop exclusively at the same stores. 

Don't be afraid to use a fake name and SSN whenever you can. Every place from your grocery store to the doctor's office seems to think they can require a photo id and a SSN in order to transact business with you, yet a couple of million illegal aliens manage to get by every day in the United States without any of this valid paperwork. So do you really think there's that much doublechecking going on? 

These are just a few ways. There's many, many more and lots of books on the subject. (Pay cash for them.) I believe it's time to sit up and take notice of our actions. The government certainly is and we don't know how they will be perceived. There may be a point in the next 10 years in which this simple posting of mine could earn me life at hard labor in the Alaskan oil fields (the American gulag).

I'll share a brief anecdote with you. About three years ago I was hired to do a security audit at a large corporation. I spent a week and produced a report detailing how people could come in and steal all their credit card transactions and customer info. I was told that I was just "paranoid" and that it would never happen. A couple of weeks ago that customer was in the news for losing MILLIONS of credit card transactions and subjecting their customers to an estimated 2 billion dollars in identity theft fraud. The method the hackers used to gain access was the same method I listed in my report. Paranoid? You betcha. Paranoid is listed at the top of my resume.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Because you asked, MamaTiger, and because you may have cubs that need protecting sometime in the future ... I'll share with you and the others some more information. I have been extremely hesitant about this in the past since the last time I posted such on this board. I received some very unfriendly responses then, and I may do so again. However, times are changing and perhaps a few more folks may see the benefit of learning these skills. This is somewhat of a technical treatise but I'll try to use more standard terminology. The purpose isn't to give you so much a plan of how to evade privacy intrusions, but rather give you some overall background and concepts. If I don't get called a criminal and traitor this time then perhaps I'll post more and more in depth.

So let's lay down the common scenario:

You are an individual in the system. The system is composed of all the interlinked networks. That's the cash registers where you buy your corn flakes, to the camera outside the bank, to the GPS signal on your cellphone, to the electric bill that comes to your door. It encompasses anything and everything about your daily life.

Once the administrators of the system, i.e. the government, determine that you are a person of interest they will begin mining the system in an attempt to find out any misdeeds of yours or to determine future behavior, or simply to locate you for arrest. 

Your problem is that there is vast array of information being collected about you as an individual and it is all available to law enforcement. However, law enforcement's problem is that there is a vast array of information being collected about ALL individuals and sorting you out of the mix becomes difficult.

The purpose of any privacy enhancing techniques or tools is to decrease your "signature" in the system and make sorting you out that much MORE difficult. Because multimodal mining methods are in use, you've got to use multimodal techniques. In order words, you've got to consider that they are watching your credit card records and comparing them against the records at Costco where you just bought a bulk order of beans. Then they go see that you've also bought a large stockpile of 8mm ammunition suited to fit a Mauser rifle and your library records show that you've recently checked out a series of anti-government books detailing Ruby Ridge and Waco. DING! You fit a profile and have become a person of interest. That's multimodal intrusion. To use multimodal avoidance techniques you would need to have remained anonymous at Costco, the gunshop, AND the library. Perhaps that wouldn't have been feasible at all three locations, but perhaps just one or two of them would have kept you off of the FBI's radar.

If you make it a goal to DAILY decrease your signature then you become lost in the noise. They will have to be specifically looking for you and it will be that much more difficult to sort you out of the background. At best they can only get you at the legal chokepoints they have created. (An example of a legal chokepoint would be having to show a valid driver's license in order to purchase ammunition. That's why I'm an advocate of reloading your own ammo. They may know that you made a purchase at some point in time, but not a recent one and older records are harder to sort through than newer ones.)

So keep these things in mind next time you go out into the world. Be aware of the cameras watching you. Be aware of the tollbooths you pass through with their automatic transponders. Be aware of the credit card transactions you are making or the library requests you are placing. You may not have anything to hide, but that's no reason to let people snoop through your business.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I just hope if I ever become worth "watching" I don't get caught pulling my panties down from my rear or with my finger in my nose. 

I don't imagine I do anything noteworthy except think freely. Even at that I am harmless anyhow. I stopped rocking the boat and being a menace to society a long time ago. I'm about as complacent and anti activist as one can be and still have an opinion.

So............if someone found me of interest I think I would be both amused and flattered. I have no problem with complete honesty, got nothing to hide except for some dusty corners, thread bare and not so white socks etc. 

If I were of interest I would also have a renewed faith in national security. If .gov has all the baddies sorted out and is so bored as to stalk me, everything is well in the world! Not sure if avoiding detection is all that clandestine anyway. Most common citizens will have some static, you have to also. If you really want to blend in keep taking your credit card to walmart and mcdonalds. If you simply vanish someone WILL wonder.

I understand your point of keeping private and defending it. I'm just not especially a secretive type person. Except for modesty I could care less what people know about me. I have no shame, admit my wrongs and make amends where neccessary.

Besides, if the machine ever gets moving along fast enough there aint a thing anybody can do to prevent getting churned into the cogs, so why stress over it? This isn't the colonial era, I don't believe a militia and pockets of patriots stand a chance.

They are borg, we will be assimilated, resistance is futile. 

I dig what your saying Ernie but lately I have seriously been enjoying a new sense of freedom, the kind of freedom that comes from a lack of stress and a lack of fear. (AKA and I could acre less attitude coupled with good sense of humor) I get the whole self preservation thing, seriously I do. 

I traded the excitement of fighting to the last bullet up for a lifetime of leaps of personal faith. The excitement of living without a safety net is the ture essence of my lifeblood. That is when I am at my best. Sure I have a bigger pantry than most, do I need to strategize a fortress? You can only plan for so many contingencies and chances are what we least expect is what will happen anyway.

*shrug*

Now if you will excuse me I was enjoying my blissful ignorance.  May go get a soda at drive thru later, wouldn't want anyone to think I was up to something. Gas usage and life as usual.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

"Facial recognition cameras are becoming more prevalent. Change your appearance frequently, as much as possible. Grow a beard if you're a man, then shave it off the next year. Always try to look different than your driver's license photo. Non-descript is the watchword. "

Ernie and anyone interested. I've read, saw a discover/history channel, or some where else heard that EARS are as individual as a finger print, so if you are changing appearances, cover the ears.

Angie


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> You're just paranoid.
> They don't care about you.
> I don't do anything wrong, why would I care.
> REMEMBER 9/11!!~!~~~! PERIOD!~
> ...


Well, I guess civil liberties just don't mean carp any more.

Hello Police State.


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

Thanks for the info. Sorry you've been bashed for sharing your knowledge and opinions. 

I noticed that clip said info would be stored for *at least* 10 years. No mention of there being a limitation on how long it could be store.


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

Oh and yes, I do have cubs at home to protect. 4 of them.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

Personally, I think posting on this and other survival type forums probably puts me more at risk of being a person of interest than anything else I do. I think I am kind of a #5 with occasional periods of #6. Most of my interesting purchasing history happened well before 9-11 or even Y2K. My life would be so boring to watch it would put a hyperactive to sleep.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Let's put it this way ...

I may be sitting on the couch trimming my toenails and doing nothing at all interesting ... but it's my couch, my toenails, and my window they are peeking in. And it's not their business.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn got shipped off for life to the gulag for criticizing the government in a private letter to a friend. In World War II the government read and would even censor everyone's mail if they didn't like what was within. It was considered a federal crime and people were thrown in prison if they didn't support the draft or said anything bad about buying war bonds. Our government was as authoritarian and high-handed as the fascists we were fighting against. 

Right now the government isn't really concerned with you. No individual government person in law enforcement has been assigned to keep track of you. What they are doing is linking together the networks and removing the legal obstacles that secure our 4th amendment rights. Do you not feel that it's a violation of the 4th amendment protecting us from unlawful search and seizure to have vast computer networks storing everything you buy, write, or read? Right now they're simply plugging Middle-Eastern terrorist profiles (so far as we know) into the data mining applications to see if they can figure out who might be up to something. 

What happens when another Timothy McVeigh blows something up and they start linking survivalist forums, library checkouts, and fertilizer purchases to fit a profile? What happens if some nutcase goes off and does something really weird and then the FBI finds out he had an account on HomesteadingToday.com? Suddenly we're all suspects and each one of our identities will be fed into the machine to crunch out data relevant to US as individuals for the past ten years.

It's not about what you're doing. It's not about how boring you think you are. It's whether or not the government can have you branded somehow as an enemy of the state, entitling them to take your property and your liberty away. If you don't think they'll do it, then you'd better think again. Our prisons are BULGING with victims of the war on drugs and not all of them are crackheads or Mexican pushers. Familiarize yourself with the cases where innocent men and women were either framed by law enforcement or had drugs found on their property (or even rented property) that didn't belong to them and were suddenly felons doing mandatory 25 year sentences. 

Everytime our government declares war on some idea or concept it's we, the people, who suffer for it through the usurpation of our labors (taxes) or through the erosion of our civil liberties. War on drugs, war on terror. It's all the same. It's a fascist concept that the state is going to wage "war" on some vague concept anyway. It was invented by Mussolini and he put it to good advantage.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Our prisons are BULGING with victims of the war on drugs and not all of them are crackheads or Mexican pushers. Familiarize yourself with the cases where innocent men and women were either framed by law enforcement or had drugs found on their property (or even rented property) that didn't belong to them and were suddenly felons doing mandatory 25 year sentences.


Or worse... 

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/462/woman_92_shot_by_atlanta_police_in_drug_raid

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/03/AR2008080301636.html

When we let our rights erode to the point where a no-knock warrant can be issued and police can just bust down your door, it's gone too far.

How many of you would grab a gun if you heard someone breaking down your door? What IF it was a drug raid based on false or bad intelligence? You would die. The police would shoot and kill you as soon as you fired off the first round doing what you believed was defending your property from an invader.

People who have this notion that "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about" are WRONG. Police are not infallible; they make mistakes, sometimes very costly ones.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

And there is more... how many of you have packages delivered by UPS? Are you aware of the TIPS program?

http://www.dojgov.net/TIPS-01.htm



> Back in the late 1990's a new sci-fi show entitled "Babylon 5" made its debut on TV. Taking place amidst the turmoil of increasingly manipulative government on earth Babylon 5 was a five mile long city in space. Built by earth, it played home to 250,000 inhabitants encompassing the best and worst of numerous civilizations. It was billed as the last great hope for humanity.
> 
> As our own planet slid out of democracy and into a federally manipulated totalitarianism, government representatives from earth arrived on Babylon 5 to recruit people for something called "The Night Watch."
> 
> ...


How many people do you trust to interpret what's going on at your home?

The CERT program I am taking evolved from this. I have been waiting to hear if any of the proposed TIPS stuff made it to CERT. Our county is not bothering with the terrorism module, though, because the guys running it are doubtful of it ever being of importance. And I am glad for that because that's not why I got involved in the course.

I learned this year that people who have Commercial Drivers Licenses are recruited to look for anything "suspicious" on the road and they are asked to report it.

The latter does not bother me so much except this business of encouraging people to spy on other people, neighbors, etc is just Orwellian and antithetical to America's commitment to freedom of thought and association.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I get the impression from absorbing your ideas that it isn't privacy that is at stake it is a much bigger issue, privacy of which being only a symptom. I get a sense from my own observations that liberty and interpretation of the Constitution are subjective. It is a tool that sometimes has iron clad ethics and at other times a very sheer veneer of a facade.

Okay, set aside trying to fly under the radar, we all have our own flight patterns. I appreciate your concern and enjoy your well researched and educated opinions, controversial or not.

BTW is it not possible that Solzhenitsyn's letter was much like Capones tax evasion? Both men were "trouble makers" were they not? (not the same caliber of course) I cannot imagine JUST a letter was all he did. Maybe he was just speaking his mind, awesome thing to do. I'm just more of a "time and a place for everything" kind of gal.

Aside from prepping, having some revolutionary ideals and whatnot, what larger scale, long term action do you think is in order?

Avoiding detection like a crafty thief, even if morally correct does not cut out the cancer that erodes away at our union, it only makes it easier for you. Having gotten to know you I would like to imagine that after love of family there is a strong sense of what is right and what should be.

Imagine family is safe, what is your plan for what should be?

My sense of safety as always mentioned is being a good courtier, knowing who butters my bread, never biting that hand but never aligning myself so deeply as to offend the next hand who usurps the previous hand. There is always a man with a bigger gun, I do not see resistance as a particularly safe act.

I am the epitomy of the meaningless peasant in the countryside, well behaved unless it is physically unsafe to do so. Let the master take the cream off the top and send me on my merry way. Taxes come in many shapes and forms. I choose serfdom over death and dare not tempt fate. I know my place in the scheme of things and have resigned myself to that.

Empires rise and fall, rulers come and go........when the tanks roll on in I have no problem moving my cart off the road. When my cart is crushed I will build a new one. Like water I will flow around obstacles, never really changing my own course for very long.

In the end, after all the fighting is over, after the bloodshed has stopped and the dust has settled......

then what? Isn't that the root of this frustration?


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

JGex said:


> People who have this notion that "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about" are WRONG. Police are not infallible; they make mistakes, sometimes very costly ones.



I personally have none such naive notions.

I just realize that some levels of dissent and resistance will only be met with more anger until you submit. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. Whoever has the biggest gun is right, end of story.

I simply choose to submit, bypass the extra drama and let the powers that be have their way and move on.

What can I or any individual do besides protest?

I'm trying to be a realist, visions of fairness and justice are a childs fairytale, full of whimsy. 


I had revolutionary ideals when I was younger. Like I mentioned before, letting go of all that was a freedom in itself. You people are ahead of the times, the populace simply isn't ready to awaken. They are on the verge of it but it's anyones guess if it will be in time.

Meanwhile I observe, deduce and let the time in between pass.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

hintonlady said:


> I personally have none such naive notions.
> 
> I just realize that some levels of dissent and resistance will only be met with more anger until you submit. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. Whoever has the biggest gun is right, end of story.
> 
> ...


Oh, I hear ya on flying under the radar. And you are correct that until the population wakes up and finally has had enough of this BS, the few of us who are still adamant about our rights to privacy probably aren't going to make much difference in what does and doesn't happen.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

That's too bad, Hintonlady. We could use another Molly Pitcher, but I understand that not everyone can march with the army. However, even fearing secular authority there are ways in which you can resist unlawful government.

There is a biblical tale of two Jewish Midwives, who resisted the pharaoh. The pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill all of the Jewish boys at birth, but knowing this was wrong and fearing God, the midwives did not. They helped the families to hide and feed the male babies. When the pharaoh discovered this he had the midwives, Yocheved and Miriam, brought before him. They told him that the Jews were such as animals and thus gave birth without their assistance and thus there was nothing they could have done. 

They lied to the pharaoh, despite God's instruction to the Jews that they _obey ordained rulers._ God blessed them by putting them in the lineage of King David and they are known today as the ones who helped save an entire generation of Jews in bondage.

There is another great tale from the bible of an old Jewish widow who hid Elijah from the soldiers of the king. She told them, "I do not know whom you seek, but I'm sure he went that away." She was an old woman. She couldn't fight the soldiers, but she could resist.

As a Christian, I do not believe that we were given to obey only a democratic government, or a republic. In fact, those political models are relatively unique in the history of God's people. There is no reason why we should not obey a king, ordained by God and following the rules laid down by God for how a king should treat his subjects. "For he doth not bear the sword in vain."

However, never in history were the Jews or the Christians required to obey the rule of tyrants and usurpers, nor were they required to obey the rule of governments which had stepped outside of their God-ordained sphere of authority. We were not commanded to be sheep. In fact, we were required to do _exactly the opposite._ Throughout the bible, whenever a king transgressed privately then he was punished privately. Whenever the king sinned _publicly_ however, and the people failed to resist him, they were punished as a complete nation. It is my Christian duty to resist and to incite others to resist. I follow the example of Jonathan Boucher, who preached revolution in 1775 with a pair of loaded pistols sitting on the pulpit in case the British found him.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Use cash
Grow your hair long
Wear a hat with a "bill" or "visor"
Ride with others when possible so your vehicle isn't on the cameras where your movements can be tracked easily
Live in a remote location

Any other ideas?

I swear my phone is tapped and someone has my house bugged. every time I come up with a good idea, I see it on TV the following year. LOL


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## LvDemWings (Sep 11, 2005)

A wise person once tried to pursuade me not to join the Columbia Record and Tape club for fear that my selections might be held against me at some time in the future. I couldn't understand and appreciate it at the time. 

I know I have been investigated and its a creepy feeling when you find out. It changes the way you think about your actions and your life.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Molly Pitcher, good one. I bet you have an incredible library 


My limits are a bit more elastic than your own but let me assure you I am capable of much more than the average bear. Bearing that in mind I conserve my energies until the time becomes ripe if at all. 

I became fully aware of my own voice quite some time ago and realized that it really must come with temperence lest I burn out too quickly.

If and when my fellow countrymen were up at arms I would join and not falter. The possibility of that is low. This countries governement is alleged to be of the people not above the people. If and when the ruled find the rulers of democracy unjust it is their duty to repair that.

Something does smell of fish but I'm just not "feeling" much potential of change in one direction or the other. This is a long slow hustle not meant to unfold fully in my generation. Total control will be slow, methodical and done in such a way as to not get the natives restless.


edited to add: If there ever is revolt it will be won from the inside out. Educate your children to be statesman with superior machiavelian skills. Educate them to be corporate execs with bland exteriors. Mold them into military academy graduates, with honors. All the while instill in them a sense of your values that cannot be corrupted later.

It is too late for you Ernie, but your sons, their sons....now that is a different matter, now isn't it?  

This struggle is timeless, no amount of cafe intellectual conversation will move mountains in our time. Learn the game, play hard and master it, if you even care to.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

Ernie, I completely and totally understand the point you are trying to make. The thing is, none of this is new except the technology. During the Nixon administration there was a huge list compiled. When I moved into a neighborhood in Louisville, KY where there were some of his "enemies" I was watched, followed and investigated. This government we have thinks they can do anything they please, and do.

Just exactly what do you think we should DO ABOUT IT????? Sure, we can try to fly under the radar but what about the stinking farm census thing etc. etc. etc.??? Personally, the way I see my country going, I would leave it but 1/2 of my people were here before the europeans and I simple will die here on my land, defending it if I have to.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

You also have to make sure you are not trying to stay so far off the grid that your lack of presence is an indicator too. And you don't want to be acting funny either, like wearing wigs all the time, cause that's kind of a tip off that something is up.

I agree that you should try to not make yourself an obvious target, but if you take it too far that makes you a target too. I suppose it is a fine line.

Kayleigh


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

The topic you brought up Ernie, about whether or not Christians must always obey the govt, as long as what the govt wants is not a sin, is a conversation currently going on within my local church fellowship. I find myself in strong agreement with your words, though many do not agree.

I personally am tired of the Constitution being stomped on and twisted to mean that which it does not say. I find it interesting that the tax on tea that the Revolutionists were so strongly opposed to and which contributed to the Revolution agst England was only a 2% tax...how far we have fallen.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> What can I or any individual do besides protest?


If enough people were to speak out now then we could put a stop to this. Most people I speak with say (basically) that unless it directly affects them then they are going to wait to stand up against (whatever). If people wait then when it does affect them it will be too late to protest.


,


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Speaking out is a valuable thing. I do agree that when one senses an injustice that it is absolutely correct to speak ones mind and stand up for what is right. Perfect example is to be witness to inapropriate hazing, a police officer whose buddies are being brutal, a kid who sees another kid get bullied, seeing someone abuse a child or animal...........

There are times in life where we are presented with very awkward situations in which standing up, speaking out and doing the right thing is very hard. Anyone who can remove themselves from a mob or who is unafraid to step in when others are watching is a true hero. Stepping beyond that invisible boundary of "should I say/do something", hoping someone else will first, being nervous then finally spitting out something..........

That takes some serious cojones, especially when standing alone. I admire that rare quality in others. The trick is though, it really has to be well delivered and the battle chosen wisely. Consider it basic marketing.

My dear friend Ernie, whom I rarely disagree with in theory, is very passionate. WONDERFUL. The problem is though, when you meet with resistance or obstinant people and passionately stand for something they do not, it complicates communication. Being a master of persuasion generally includes keeping an almost neutral and objective tone while asking some very well thought out and leading questions.

A debate is better won through artful tactics. Rhetoric rules the day, always has.

Now back to my good pal Ernie, his convictions are so strong that he could inadvertantly put an "opponent" on the defensive stance where they feel as if they must defend their view and thereby are no longer open to actually assimilating new information. People hate to change their minds and agree with something different so they must be shown a theory in a non threataning way.

I whole heartedly agree with Ernie, JGex and Uyk7, I have stood up and used my voice, been thrust into leadership positions I did not want and have a good share of experience with the complexities of trying to work toward an unpopular change.

Ernie, I used to be you only less educated LOL. I have been there and fought the good fight, trust me. I also have the scars to prove it. I learned a long time ago that getting ones way in a socio/political sense never comes from a full out assault of honesty in opinion and a sense of fairness. I cannot tell you the energy I burned and could have burned my entire life trying to fight the good fight. I have no desire to martyr my personal life or family time. Passion like that takes a lot of energy to stay in momentum.

So now I wait, safe in knowing that when my time has come to return to a youthful zeal, if the time is ever ripe, I know I have it within me to achieve my goals. I am unafraid and do not accept limitations. My only divergence from some of you is this; I prefer to wait for whatever sign I have been waiting for, choose my battles VERY carefully and VERY rarely. I work smarter, not harder, a good strategy can remove a lot of extra work and frustration.

I see no point in carrying banners and chanting protest. Historically those do not become effective until it is a majority of the common citizens participating. Until the mentality of the times change or someone else has a sane non violent game plan I see nothing worth aligning myself with. Violence is a weapon of weak people or of last resort. Thus I am careful who I would group with and allow myself to be represented by. A revolution can be won in secret behind closed doors, if you haven't figured that out yet you haven't been playing the game long enough or hard enough.


I'm a disgruntled citizen, much like many of you. I'm just playing the game by a different set of rules....

If real change is to ever happen it must come through learning by example not being forced by fear. A good leader must rule the hearts of their people, not break their backs. Sincere loyalty from love and deep seeded respect are very powerful tools. Seems to me our .gov isn't too worried about that. Eventually the kids in the school yard have to fight the bully, it will happen naturally in it's own time. Any match I light will only smolder, the real blaze will ignite spontaneously.

I see no worthy leaders for the cause, don't expect any to step forward, not interested in vying for the title. People want to be lead, they want to be watched over, they also want it to be done by a just and rigtheous person. Without a ruler, lacking in a sufficient spear head we are merely the body of a beast with no brain to steer it. There is no advantage to chaos or confusion unless it is planned.

blah blah blah I'll shut up now


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There's the rub, isn't it? Finding out what causes need your energies? 

One of my heroes, Henry David Thoreau said, "For every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root."

There's but one cause I fight for, and that's liberty in the God-given spheres of authority. God gives the head of a family authority over the matters of the family. God gives the church authority over matters of the church. The community has matters over only community matters, and finally a God-ordained government has been granted such authority over the government matters. I cannot come to your house and issue commands to your family ... that would be outside my limited sphere of authority. The government was not given authority over charity for that was the province of the church, nor was it given authority over the matters of the family for that was left for the head of the family. Even a monarch must respect these spheres. He may be the king, but he must rule justly and only within his sphere. 

The root of evil I see is a government out of control, stepping freely across the spheres of authority and usurping the control of community, church, and family. This is the cause that motivates me to fight. Right now the fight is a speaking fight, with the government claiming it has these rights (and citizens claiming the government SHOULD have these rights) and so my fight remains a speaking fight. We are commanded in the bible to meet conflict only with like force. A verbal assault can only be met with verbal resistance. We, as Christians, are not allowed to escalate it.

I'll continue to proselytize and educate along these lines, trying to grow our number. For now that is all I have been called to do. The most dangerous time is not now, when the majority of Americans are asleep. The most dangerous time will come when the majority of Americans are awakened to the dangers of tyrannical government and that same government feels compelled to act swiftly and brutally in its own defense. Until we hear that call, I urge each and every one of you to continue speaking liberty to everyone you met and in every situation.


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## virtualco (Feb 3, 2006)

hintonlady said:


> I am the epitomy of the meaningless peasant in the countryside, well behaved unless it is physically unsafe to do so. Let the master take the cream off the top and send me on my merry way. Taxes come in many shapes and forms. I choose serfdom over death and dare not tempt fate. I know my place in the scheme of things and have resigned myself to that.


I follow hintonlady style of living, except in the urban sprawl I call home. I like to think of myself as a single fish in a school of a million. When the 'shark' come feeding they grab those fish on the outside of the school. The shark get full and leave.

I am so ordinary and typical that I am invisible. Income, taxes, library reading, internet usage, always just average (normal).

I wouldn't know how to hide, conceal what I do as what I do is normal. I also chose serfdom over death and dare not tempt fate.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

virtualco said:


> I follow hintonlady style of living, except in the urban sprawl I call home. I like to think of myself as a single fish in a school of a million. When the 'shark' come feeding they grab those fish on the outside of the school. The shark get full and leave.
> 
> I am so ordinary and typical that I am invisible. Income, taxes, library reading, internet usage, always just average (normal).
> 
> I wouldn't know how to hide, conceal what I do as what I do is normal. *I also chose serfdom over death and dare not tempt fate.*


And Patrick Henry just rolled over in his grave. Not really directing this at you, Virtualco, but more the entire population who seems to be thinking this way.

Though I much prefer to live my life quietly, there are some things I would choose not to give up. Look at this news story I just read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2571041/How-Big-Brother-watches-your-every-move.html



> In one week, the average person living in Britain has 3,254 pieces of personal information stored about him or her, most of which is kept in databases for years and in some cases indefinitely.
> 
> The data include details about shopping habits, mobile phone use, emails, locations during the day, journeys and internet searches.
> 
> In many cases this information is kept by companies such as banks and shops, but in certain circumstances they can be asked to hand it over to a range of legal authorities.


Is that satisfactory? Should we be happy with this sort of invasion of privacy? Is this just how everything is headed? Into a Logan's Run type society where your every move is monitored and actions structured? And the biggest question of all: Is this sort of surveilance really producing any results in preventing anything bad from happening?

I wonder at what point in the history of the American people that the stomach for a little rebellion every now and then was lost....


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

JGex, I want to make it clear that I am not unwilling to stand, Iâm just not inspired to do so at this point.

Thus far I can go into the street and speak my mind without fear, many of the world cannot. Thus far I have the privilege of motorized transportation, many of the world does not. Thus far I have the means to seek out education and a better life, I can pursue happiness, many of the world cannot. If I bare a daughter she will be free to choose her own life path, many women of the world cannot.

This is truly the land of plenty where the tired hungry masses may still seek liberty not found in their motherlands.

I do agree that the system is flawed, perhaps needing repair and a bit antiquated for modern situations. Does that mean it should be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch? I personally do not think so.

I still have the privilege of public education, yes it is a privilege even if not excellent in quality. I still have electricity, maintained roads, libraries, fireman etc. I am grateful for the things we do have because so many do not. IMHO people can make proactive solutions, complain or do nothing. Only one such choice has a real impact.

For those who like to study history I would like to sum it all up very simply.
There is an ebb and flow to humankind. We have ages of enlightenment then ages of stagnation. We make progress then make mistakes. Humankind is still in the infancy of itâs potential. We will continue to make two steps forward and one step back. It is not a perfect system but consider there is positive change even if slight. Yes man is greedy and violent and it is a slow dying habit. 

What about our collective accomplishments? We have harnessed the power of fire, the power of lightning, the power of wind and water alike. We have learned to extend our lives through medical advancements. We create art that is so far beyond cave paintings, have languages that are written so we may document our histories. 

I see people chomping at the bit because they are intelligent enough to perceive that we are not in the springtime of our potential. We are perhaps in the lingering fall leading into winter. The season of growth for society has slowed. That doesnât mean it lasts forever, it never does.

Yes Ernie, speak of your visions of a better day through better ways. Spread hope and pray it is infectious. Iâm simply not convinced that blazing torches of the villagers are appropriate at this time or that they would be effective. Iâm not interested in the glory of martyrdom for a cause. I wonât forfeit my self preservation for principle. My goal is to reach into a brighter future by raising future leaders. I cannot do that dead on a battleground of ethics. 

A lifetime is simply not enough to see our own full potential realized. Dig a little deeper. People become too preoccupied with their own significance in the here and now. Recognize your own mortality, let go of ego and meditate on an even deeper potentiality within your grasp. Consider it a long term heirloom investment.


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## virtualco (Feb 3, 2006)

hintonlady said:


> JGex, I want to make it clear that I am not unwilling to stand, Iâm just not inspired to do so at this point.


hintonlady, you make my point again. I just finished reading a book by James Patterson called, "Jester", in which the main character actually threw of the shackles of oppression (takes place around 1059 a.d., Lieges, serfs) when the government became oppressive. The Jester started a populist movement that succeeded. :duel:

My main weapon for fighting the oppression we have now is my vote. Never fail to vote city wide, county wide, state wide, and nationally. I think there are many persons like me that are quiet, low keyed and will remain under the radar until a time is needed to throw off the yoke of oppression with more than votes. We all have to die of something...

Patrick Henry, go back to sleep.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It was not given to us to rest in comfort and peace while we are on this earth. We are to labor all of the days of our lives. At this, I do not believe that God simply meant to toil at a job. I believe it was also meant that we should continually struggle against oppression, tyranny, and ungodliness.

What you and hintonlady are speaking of is a prideful human vision that we can somehow find it in ourselves to better our own world. It's false and based on pride. We cannot. There is no hidden virtue within humanity just waiting to come out. We are fallen, debased creatures. Only through God is anything good and beautiful possible. If we seek to do better in this world, it will only be through following God's plan for us. Doing this has been so rewarding in my own life.

The belief in a quiet, low key uprising is shaky. If these people were too cowardly, and yes I say cowardly, to agitate and voice their beliefs when they had the freedom to do so and when it might have done some good, I do not trust that they will pick up a gun when it's time to do so. 

It's not about martyrdom or a cause. I cared almost nothing for politics or causes until I had sons and realized that they inherit the world I leave them. 

I aim to rattle the windows until the sleeping patriots wake up. Then together we might do some good.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> It was not given to us to rest in comfort and peace while we are on this earth. We are to labor all of the days of our lives. At this, I do not believe that God simply meant to toil at a job. I believe it was also meant that we should continually struggle against oppression, tyranny, and ungodliness.
> 
> What you and hintonlady are speaking of is a prideful human vision that we can somehow find it in ourselves to better our own world. It's false and based on pride. We cannot. There is no hidden virtue within humanity just waiting to come out. We are fallen, debased creatures. Only through God is anything good and beautiful possible. If we seek to do better in this world, it will only be through following God's plan for us. Doing this has been so rewarding in my own life.
> 
> ...



Oh Ernie, you crack me up sometimes. Take a deep breath, I am not the enemy. I will question friends as much as I question authority.

You and I are on the same path, I just happen to have a different drummer. I plan from a differnt perspective. I am sad that you see me as opposite your own beliefs. I am closer than you may wish to recognize.

Am I alarmed at current events? Absolutely. I am watching very closely.

I would like to think that God planned not just for the toil but for us to soak up all the beauty of his creation. There were those with unclean hands and those who were pure enough to build a temple. Neither was more or less important than the other.

Pride, yes a flaw perhaps. I take pride in my efforts as a loving parent, take pride in a job well done. I do not subscribe to blind subservience. I have faith in free will and faith in a path being revealed. 

Our paths may criss cross, converge and diverge from time to time. You and I did not start nor will we finish on the same path. I do not have a blind eye, I watch the horizon just as closely as you do. I just think that somehwere someone has to remind the artilery to hold steady. Having a couple cannons pop off out of sequence before the target is within site makes a sloppy battle.


You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them think. Spreading the word upon deaf ears isn't effective in my book.

The constitution, it's interpretation and powers have long been argued and contested. Until the people whom are said to control our nation choose, collectivey that it must change, it simply will not. For myself it is a matter of ethics. It is not my place to judge the choices of others. The people of our union choose by informal vote (even if it is ignorance or complacency) to accept unwritten amendments and changes. The constitution is not etched in stone. I am not the people I am but one person. Democracy is in fact a popularity contest. To assume we are correct above other freemen, to try to force a change we presume better is the same tactic that I thought we were supposed to condemn.

If it is about the constitution and rights, the people will enforce them, en mass when they choose to. If they choose not to, that is their choice and constitutional right. It is not for me to impose my will or religious beliefs, that IMHO *would be * unconstitutional.

I am a patriot and defend the constitution even if it is not in my favor. Therefore I must admit my opinion is no more valid than the next persons. If the next person wants the whole nation to be sheeple and all their peers agree, sheeple it is.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

virtualco said:


> hintonlady, you make my point again. I just finished reading a book by James Patterson called, "Jester", in which the main character actually threw of the shackles of oppression (takes place around 1059 a.d., Lieges, serfs) when the government became oppressive. The Jester started a populist movement that succeeded. :duel:
> 
> My main weapon for fighting the oppression we have now is my vote. Never fail to vote city wide, county wide, state wide, and nationally. I think there are many persons like me that are quiet, low keyed and will remain under the radar until a time is needed to throw off the yoke of oppression with more than votes. We all have to die of something...
> 
> Patrick Henry, go back to sleep.


And what if "your vote" is a lie? What if the system is so broken that elections can be stolen and swayed by whoever holds the power to do so?

You might be interested in spending some time over on http://www.blackboxvoting.org/. These people are fighting the good fight and have raised enough questions in my mind that I believe it is possible to steal an election and that is has been happening since at least 2000 in the State of Georgia. But whenever you say something like that, somebody always wants to cry "tin foil hat" instead of taking the time to look at the evidence presented. 

Hintonlady, there are many more who feel the same way you do... they WILL stand, just no one cause has been raised that gets the hackles up of enough people all at once. Why? Because the govt and media keep us so divided on stupid issues that the important ones get overlooked because people are too worried about what's going to happen to Britney and her kids instead of worried about what direction this country is headed. Right now one of the big dividers is the BS Christian vs. Secular arguments at every level of life. Instead of fighting for one or the other, we should ALL be fighting for the FREEDOM to CHOOSE EITHER. That is what the Constitution grants us.

A revolution requires a great uniter. And no, I certainly don't mean GW. I mean a reason or a cause that pull the splintered minor factions in this country (or any country for that matter) together under a single cause. The way I see it, we have a chance of that happening should the economy get so bad that people are actually hungry and living on the streets in numbers far greater than what we have now. We just haven't reached a tipping point yet... The 100th Monkey Effect, if you will. No more Minority vs. Majority, Religious vs. Secular, just American standing up in unison agreeing to be American.

Well, I guess that little post will get me on a watch list somewhere, huh?


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## Fryegirl (Sep 16, 2006)

Did anyone see 'Hacking Democracy'? It's an HBO film but I ordered it from Netflix. After I watched it, I didn't know whether to spit or cry. I realize that voting is our chance to express our views but sometimes, it seems so hopeless. In this presidential election, for example, I don't care for either of the mian candidates so I plan to write in. People have scolded me about that, saying I was wasting my vote but I'm really, really tired of voting 'against' someone, rather than 'for' them. I think that most people feel that they HAVE to chose between the Demo. and Rep. parties and the media enforces this.

I agree with


> I mean a reason or a cause that pull the splintered minor factions in this country (or any country for that matter) together under a single cause.


 This country came together during Katrina and 911 and the unification had nothing to do with politics, race, gender or religion. Humanity was the uniter.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Fryegirl said:


> Did anyone see 'Hacking Democracy'? It's an HBO film but I ordered it from Netflix. After I watched it, I didn't know whether to spit or cry. I realize that voting is our chance to express our views but sometimes, it seems so hopeless. In this presidential election, for example, I don't care for either of the mian candidates so I plan to write in. People have scolded me about that, saying I was wasting my vote but I'm really, really tired of voting 'against' someone, rather than 'for' them. I think that most people feel that they HAVE to chose between the Demo. and Rep. parties and the media enforces this.
> 
> I agree with This country came together during Katrina and 911 and the unification had nothing to do with politics, race, gender or religion. Humanity was the uniter.


Both of those events did unite... briefly, and it was a beautiful thing for the amount of time that the humanity lasted. I'll explain why I believe it didn't last for either.

For Katrina (or any natural disaster), as soon as the waters receded, some people started getting uppity about sending their tax money down there and decided that anyone living in a flood zone shouldn't be the beneficiary of govt assistance even though most of them were taxpayers, too. The country split again... those who helped and those who said let them figure it out on their own.

On 9/11, there were and still are too many unanswered questions and the theory that it was an inside job or govt conspiracy of some sort has split the country.

We're still splintered. I'm not sure what it could be that could unite and keep us united, but we have not experienced it yet.

I haven't seen 'Hacking Democracy' but thanks for the suggestion. I'll watch it this week.


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## Frugalite (Jun 8, 2008)

Elections, in my opinion, are somewhat 'fixed' before the candidates are nominated. I do believe in the Illuminati and the history surrounding it so clear. There are pressures placed on these men that have nothing to do with being president. They comply for many reasons and for traditions sake, even when they know they are wrong. 

Of course they are keeping information files on us. Google saves every search every made and the IP address of the searcher. We are FAR from independence and very close to simply being a demographic. Everything we do carries a signature, pretty much. Short of lying, we are subject to it at all times.

We are being propagandized through the media, FOX, CNN etc. 

What bothers me most is the fly overs. And what can be seen through that technology should have us all concerned.

How many bar coded items do you have in your pantry? How many mason jar lids will show up in an image of your home in a fly over? Satellites see everything. How much cash in your wallet? You may not know but a satellite report does. Not so bad until you have to let them in to take you food from a 1950s law that says they can take anything over two weeks supply.

Humanity may have been the uniter during the fiascos, however, it will be serfdom for sure in the years ahead.

They will keep nudging up the water temperature and the frogs will relax and enjoy the hot tub, they will never know what hit them till the water is too hot and the frog incapable of jumping out of the water.

Resistance is futile. Short of escaping the planet. You can bet the compounds will be the first to go, similar to Ruby Ridge and Waco. There is really no need to baracade yourself unless you have links to many underground tunnels and such that only LOTS of CASH can buy your safety through them.

I do wonder how long it will be before we are all 'chipped'.

I personally believe these epidemics we are about to see are all contrived...just wanted to add that since I had my tin hat on today.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

hintonlady said:


> Oh Ernie, you crack me up sometimes. Take a deep breath, I am not the enemy. I will question friends as much as I question authority.


Of course not.  

I know how this sounds in our politically correct day and age, but I do not believe that women have a place in revolution beyond moral support. It is not for you to fight. Women are keepers of the hearth and it's your job to keep the young alive. It's our job, as men, to make it a world in which it's safe and wholesome for you to do so.

Women must follow a different standard. You can resist, but you must resist according to your sex.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Of course not.
> 
> I know how this sounds in our politically correct day and age, but I do not believe that women have a place in revolution beyond moral support. It is not for you to fight. Women are keepers of the hearth and it's your job to keep the young alive. It's our job, as men, to make it a world in which it's safe and wholesome for you to do so.
> 
> Women must follow a different standard. You can resist, but you must resist according to your sex.


Then we never misunderstood one another from the outset.  I'm fine with being sheltered and protected. I am also fine with holding down the homestead myself if need be. 

My weapons are my wits, I am physically strong but not enough so.

Abimelech had a most unglorious end, did he not?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'll keep agitating. You wave the flag in the background and keep a mill-stone handy.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And someone keep a good first aide kit handy.

Angie


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

It's quite refreshing to see someone else put into words (elequent ones at that) the idea that men are to be the ones doing the fighting, the protecting while women are to keep the home fires burning and encourage and support their menfolk doing the fighting.

When I express these views, I am often rediculed...but this idea has totally changed my marriage and my life. To say my dh and I have come a long way from where we started almost 20 years ago would be an understatement. lol


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I am confident enough in my femininity to accept a subservient role to my DH, out of respect not obligation. It is my duty to nurture him so he is better able to face the harsh world. I keep the home fires burning so to speak.

I feel that the sexual revolution was a shame. Women wanted to be equal to men, to compete with men. I can command respect without having to be a better "man" than a man. Feminism did not serve to empower women. Empowerment comes from recognizing how valuable and vital the wife/mother is in a family. Women were taught that they were servants and treated as lowly. My husband works long days, in the inclement weather, has a worn down body and does it gladly to provide for his family. Although my position is not paid no man could pay his wife a deeper respect as to provide for her so that her biggest concern is caring for the family.

My job as a mother and wife is an honor and a privilige. If another man admires that I am barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, if he winks at my husband because I can make bread......it is not an insult toward me nor is it degrading. He is likewise showing his appreciation for a woman worth having.

Ernie, you are not incorrect, you are a true gentleman. A lady would see that. A lady trying to be like a man would not. There is no honor in having children and paying someone else to be their Mother to spare a career.

All that being said, I can take a lamb from pasture to freezer by myself, I can stitch and care for ugly wounds, can break a horse, rebuild a motor and more. My husband can cook and clean but it doesn't mean either of us blur those roles often. We are a team, we do our own jobs and run support in one anothers roles should the other be spread too thin. That is a true partnership and marriage. No sense in us both grocery shopping, we would just argue over whole or 2% milk anyway. 

I can sew that flag and if my husband is unable to defend his home I am one heck of a shot.

To tie this into the thread title of being watched. I offer respect where it is due and fein respect when it is neccessary. I understand why Abimelech was upset with not his demise but the method of it. An honorable warrior deserves to save face and die a warrior at the hand of a worthy opponent. An honorable warrior would not kill women and children. Therefore those with honor need not ever fear a womans scorn or her ability to raise vengeful sons.  

I am but an invisible peasant you see. Leave me be and I am harmless, harm my cubs and you will see a wrath like no other. No honorable man would push me to that so no honorable man need fear that. Seems prretty simple to me.


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## CowgirlGloria (Jun 19, 2008)

Dunno. 

Cowboy rather likes the idea that if TSHTF, I've got his back and I know how to shoot. I've been in fights before, and if it came down to it I could kill. So, he feels like he's got a real partner. I don't think he'd want a shrinking violet who was totally dependent upon him to do it all. He likes my spunk, my fighting ability, etc. as much as any other aspect of me.

But, to each her own, to each his own. It takes all kinds of relationships in this ole world! And if they make people happy, I'm all for it!!!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I had brought this up to my wife, after going through the thread again, and she said that while she wouldn't fight normally ... heaven help them if they come after her sons. So I can see some logic there.

My wife always says she has no trouble accepting me as head of the household, so long as I'm putting the household's interests first. It's when things get out of balance that the head of the household loses respect. I figure it's the same with politicians. I would have no trouble at all following a leader whom I knew was doing what he could in the service of his country, as opposed to these self-serving men in control now.


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## MawKettle (Sep 13, 2006)

Hintonlady.....I did not want to quote your entire post (basically because I can't STAND the quote feature - makes it hard to read the next idea)...but most of what I'm about to say is in response to your words.

I'll tell you now that I've written and re-written this post about 6 times.

At first, I got white hot angry at what you said - about being glad to be in second place (at least that's the way I read it the first time (and the 2nd, and the 3rd ... by the 4th I started to get the point).

You're not. (in second place).

You're in a really cool place with your purpose in life, and your husband and your family. I envy you that.

But I'm one of those folks from the other side....the side that taught girl children that they were as good as the men...if not better.

And for a long time, I was better. Better than every man that tried to take my job away. I'm proud of that. If that's a sin - so be it.

Now, at this point in my life - with the husband I now have - I'm content NOT to be "that person" - but that doesn't mean that I've forgotten who she is / was.....

so accept this as a compliment. Your words as follows:



hintonlady said:


> I am but an invisible peasant you see. Leave me be and I am harmless, harm my cubs and you will see a wrath like no other. No honorable man would push me to that so no honorable man need fear that. Seems prretty simple to me.


struck me.....thank you for the perspective......


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## naturewoman (Nov 12, 2002)

hintonlady, you make a lot of good points in debate...but I think you don't understand politics and power. It changes the whole dynamics of debate, because the one with the best argument doesn't always win...it's the one with the most power (money) who wins.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Well, I don't have any cubs and I have always fought my own battles, so I'd likely be standing next to my DH in any situation, but that is just me.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

MamaTiger said:


> I'd like to know how to prevent being spied upon. I'd like to know how to disappear. PM is fine.
> 
> Oh, and I *am* a tin foiler. lol


MamaTiger, 
I'd recommend doing a little preemptive spying and figure out what time the spy satellites go over... live and die by the schedule and never be outside during flyover times... oh, and avoid anything that uses electricity...

The heroine in Resident Evil: Apocalypse made a mistake one day, and the flyover sat captured her face, and then things got really interesting. I know, I know, it's only a movie.... But I have read where spy sats can read a license plate and recognize a face.

Reminds me of an old Calvin and Hobbes cartoon... Calvin is outside, waiting to pounce on enemy... he waits and waits... gets disgusted goes inside and his mom tells him, don't worry, someday you'll have enemies. I'll have to get a whole lot more importanter before anyone'll want to gander at me all day long. That would be a sweet job...sitting at a notebook computer all day, watching homesteaders triple dig their gardens... course it'd probably be at LEast a GS11 position...


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> The heroine in Resident Evil: Apocalypse made a mistake one day, and the flyover sat captured her face, and then things got really interesting. I know, I know, it's only a movie.... But I have read where spy sats can read a license plate and recognize a face.


Actually, nations will schedule missile tests for times when the sats are not overhead. Don't want the enemy to know how your test went.

BTW, where can one find the sat flyover schedule?


.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Hintonlady,


:clap::clap:

You laid bare the lie of being the same v/s equal. They are very different.


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## shelljo (Feb 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Be aware of the credit card transactions you are making or the *library requests *you are placing. You may not have anything to hide, but that's no reason to let people snoop through your business.


Don't worry about those library requests. Libraries will not willingly give up your library records. In fact, they are purged after you check something back in. And, librarians are willing to go to jail to protect your safety. It's one of our basic tenents...our basic beliefs...your privacy.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2003_Jan_22/ai_96692293

about face recognition s/w and such.

From a company here in town.
Angie


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

Hintonlady, that was a most elequent statement detailing the difference between being the same and being equal/yet different in our roles as women, wives, and mothers. 

It has often seemed to me that many believe having a different function/role means being subservient and *less than* the man. It's not that way at all. DaddyTiger is not *worth more* than me to God; he simply has a different role, one that requires much of him because he is the one who is responsible to the Lord for leading his home, protecting his family, and providing for them. He has the vision for our family and he is responsible for seeing that vision is carried out. He can and often does delegate authority and responsibilities to the rest of us.

My job is to be *his* helpmeet. That might mean being able to gut a pig, put up fence, doing research online, keeping the family financial books, homeschooling the children, offering hospitality or a whole host of other things. For another man, being his wife/helpmeet might mean something entirely different. Each man is different and needs help in different ways. Our role as wife is to complement our *own* husband.

To tie this hijack into the thread, lol, learning about this spying and how to circumvent it is part of being a helpmeet to MY dh. And while I can shoot a gun, fairly accurately to be honest, I'd much rather be sitting right behind my dh, loading up the 2nd firearm as he does the shooting...sewing up a flag for him to raise up and wave as he attempts to draw others into the fray for liberty...encouraging him when he grows weary of the fight. If it was required, of course, I could join in and do a half decent job, but until it is required of me, it's best that I perform the tasks that best suit my role as a woman, a wife, a mother.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

texican said:


> MamaTiger,
> I'd recommend doing a little preemptive spying and figure out what time the spy satellites go over... live and die by the schedule and never be outside during flyover times... oh, and avoid anything that uses electricity...
> 
> The heroine in Resident Evil: Apocalypse made a mistake one day, and the flyover sat captured her face, and then things got really interesting. I know, I know, it's only a movie.... But I have read where spy sats can read a license plate and recognize a face.


Spy satellites are not a concern at this time. The technology isn't as good as they make it look in books and on television shows. With the optics they CAN capture a face, but they need to know exactly the spatial coordinates of where that face is going to be in advance. Down to the millimeter. The tracking and scanning of targets is what the limiting factor is. As it is, they only can use these satellites to observe buildings and specific terrain features that have been pre-surveyed.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

shelljo said:


> Don't worry about those library requests. Libraries will not willingly give up your library records. In fact, they are purged after you check something back in. And, librarians are willing to go to jail to protect your safety. It's one of our basic tenents...our basic beliefs...your privacy.


Not all librarians feel this way. In fact, only 26 out of about 3000 felt that way when the government issued a National Security Letter in Connecticut. 26 librarians stood up for our rights. The rest folded. As a test, I went to the online website to review my patron records. After entering in my card information I can display the previous 2 years of books lent.

Here's a link to some legal stuff surrounding library records:

http://www.llrx.com/features/libraryrecords.htm

As you can see, they aren't protected very well legally. When the government bothers to obtain the proper warrants, they CAN get your library records and a librarian WOULD go to jail for refusing. Then the next librarian would have the choice to refuse or go to jail, and so forth and so on until someone gives up the records.

It's simply better to be careful about what you check out from the library. It protects you, and it protects the librarian. If they don't have anything that can be used against you, it will help keep them out of jail.


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## avandris (Jun 8, 2007)

Shelljo, 

As a former librarian I have to say it depends on the software the library has. I know with the software that our district has that it does "purge" the records of each individual, but not the record of the item. So I could take the book "Hop on Pop" by Dr. Suess and find out who has checked that particular book out for the last 2 years or so. All of that is saved. Some libraries have software that do keep all the records of individuals too. 
That being said in 2002 the director of our library district was taken to the local Fed building by the FBI because she would not release information about an individual. From what I understand they gave up on it after the State Library's Lawyer got in touch with them. The person in question was arrested though and sent to Gitmo and his family was sent back to Saudi Arabia. 
So yes, most librarians will go to jail for you, but your information is there if "they" want to take it. 

Also if you request an interlibrary loan not only does your library have record of it the library that owns the item will too. So your name may show up if the records are searched in another state, not just at your little local library.


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

Texican, why use nothing that requires electricity?????


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

yeah they are watching you. and guess what nothing sends up red flags like living off grid and doing thing out of the norm with society. 
you think not using electric will some how help you stay below the radar keep dreaming. 
that nice little heat signature off your woodstove in the middle of nowhere is a call for a closure look .


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

CowgirlGloria said:


> Dunno.
> 
> Cowboy rather likes the idea that if TSHTF, I've got his back and I know how to shoot. I've been in fights before, and if it came down to it I could kill. So, he feels like he's got a real partner. I don't think he'd want a shrinking violet who was totally dependent upon him to do it all. He likes my spunk, my fighting ability, etc. as much as any other aspect of me.
> 
> But, to each her own, to each his own. It takes all kinds of relationships in this ole world! And if they make people happy, I'm all for it!!!


There you go again taking things I say out of context and being a bit condescending about it.

I am actually fiercly independant and very asseritve. I am not imtimidated by anone or anything. I run the heavy farm equipment, wrestle full grown onery rams to the ground.....I'm talking 300lb. ram getting bulldogged. I can carry two feed bags at a time all day long. I am anything BUT a shrinking violet.

My partenership is based on the trust that we will assume our own roles rather than having to stand shoulder to shoulder watching over one another like children who cannot be responsible for their own duties on their own. When a job is big or we want to share we can align forces.

I am more of a handful and truckload to handle than most men can manage. Thus by finding a man who can go toe to toe with me, so to speak I aquiesce out of respect. I have no need to play like a boy because I have no need to compete with and try to emasculate a man for my independent ego meter. 

A man wants to feel like a man and it's awful hard to do when a woman doesn't know how to act like a lady. I never said I couldn't do everything a man can. I simply do not feel threataned by my husband wearing the pants. I know that waking up at 4:45 a.m. to cook him a hot breakfast fills his heart with love and his belly with warmth all day. (HIS words) He also likes me sassy. My job is JUST as important as his.

I can fight and kill if need be too. I don't have to flash it to feel more worthy or capable. Not sure if there is any glory in killing, it is a neccessary function but should not bring pride. If if it brings pride it shows a total lack of understanding of how such a base animal act is NOT something one should want to do or feel proud of. Not too sure if advertising it is all that ladylike or cool, but like you said, to each their own.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Maw kettle, I am sorry I struck such a chord with you. I also seriously appreciate what an obvious effort you made in communicating nicely in spite of it.

My current DH is an incredible, old fashioned gentleman. The type who wanted to build a house before we were wed, if that makes any sense to you. I find his concern over me and family very comforting and rewarding. I do not consider myself as second, I prefer it, it is my first choice.

On the nights he is up late enetering farm bills into his computer and wringing his hands over chemical prices I am brewing some yummy smells in the kitchen. He spares me the everyday worries and I give him a sunny glow later.

I don't just sit around on a shelf collecting dust. I doctor the sheep, tend a garden etc. My nails are short and my neck is tanned.

This balance is only possible through DEEP respect and trust.


my ex was a piece of work. I had to practically Mama him. He wouldn't make his own doctors appointments, had to be reminded to do his share of work around the house etc.

Worst of all I had to constantly wonder what he was doing with the finances, if we were staying afloat. The trust was lost and he was not a good man.


Having been the one who had to hold down the house and manage the domestic affairs was a burden. Now I consider my position as a doted over little missus as a privilige, not an indignity.

I'd rather not be the one sweating over a tractors motor or be pulling off a wheel hub, call me a bit spoiled in that way. The other option was in an air conditioned kitchen making bread from scratch. I think I actually got the better end of the deal and appreciate it fully. 

It's about mutual respect and being with a man who doesn't see me being a wife as being second, he sees me as vital to his needs.

A strong woman will recognize that from behind the scenes we have a major role and major power of our own. Anyone remember how beguiling Cleopatra was? Being pleasing, to a degree is much more useful than being difficult, trust me.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I've been reading this thread with interest, especially the part about female roles. I'm a big strong woman who can take care of herself, shoot (really well), fix stuff, cook, sew (ok, a little bit), butcher, preserve, fight, garden, nurse a baby, sop up blood from an injury, be as tough as any man. Until I met my hubby I'd never met a man who was my equal. I wanted a strong man, smart and capable, someone I could respect and who would take care of me. I waited almost 30 years to find him. Although I'm perfectly capable of taking care of myself in most situations, I love that I can let down that guard with him and know that he respects and cherishes both my strengths and my weaknesses. And there are some things he can't do, or would rather I deal with, and I take on those jobs without complaint.

We've also had a "traditional" marriage. I stay home and take care of the house and kids, and cook, clean, grow stuff. He goes to work every day and makes the money. He's basically the head of our household and I defer to him on most things. But he knows that if I disagree or feel strongly, I'll stand up to him and we'll have to come to an understanding. Sometimes it goes on for days or weeks, but we eventually work it out. 

After 22 years together, I consider our marriage a success. It might not be the right way for some people, but it works for us.


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## naturewoman (Nov 12, 2002)

Hintonlady, in reply to your words:


> What can I or any individual do besides protest?


You can vote, you can work within your community toward the changes you want in government, through grass-roots movements, through contacting your congressmen and senators and even local politicians, and through educating others to the importance of what you believe in...fight for your children's future, if nothing else.



> I had revolutionary ideals when I was younger. Like I mentioned before, letting go of all that was a freedom in itself. You people are ahead of the times, the populace simply isn't ready to awaken. They are on the verge of it but it's anyones guess if it will be in time.
> 
> I conserve my energies until the time becomes ripe if at all.


I'm saddened to hear that you've given up your revolutionary ideals. Maturity does not necessarily mean losing your idealism...it just changes the way you fight for them. It's because people like you have given up, and don't try to stop the slow creep of government control, that when you are finally angry enough to stand up and fight, it will be too late. 

No one is saying you need to go out and fight with guns....but with words and community action. You say you will conserve your energies until the time is ripe. I'm afraid that when the time is ripe, it will be too late, because the people will have willingly given up all their rights in the name of safety. You will not be able to work together with revolutionaries, because the government will be able to see who is starting uprisings, as they will have access to all your communications, and they will stop them before they have a change to grow big enough to succeed. It's not today's government we need to protect ourselves from by securing our privacy...it's tomorrow's. You may feel you don't need the privacy now, but once you give it up you will never get it back, and when you do need it, it won't be there.



> Total control will be slow, methodical and done in such a way as to not get the natives restless.
> edited to add: If there ever is revolt it will be won from the inside out.


That is exactly what is happening now...the slow methodical taking of control, by taking the right to spy on all Americans now. If we give up that privacy, the revolt will never be allowed to get off the ground.



> A revolution can be won in secret behind closed doors, if you haven't figured that out yet you haven't been playing the game long enough or hard enough.


Again...you give up your right to privacy now because you feel you have nothing to hide, and in the future, you will have no closed doors to hide behind. They will have access to all your communications and they will search you out and stop you.



> Thus far I can go into the street and speak my mind without fear


You are right, but for how long will this be true? Will your children have the same freedom?


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Just to clear the air about why I gave up my revolutionary ways......
condensed version, very condensed.


After Katrina I got worked up. Wanted to help evacuees.

Started to organize. Bumped into two other like minded people. Problem was I was better at getting things moving, they didn't like that.

Within a week I had a list of 130 families actively willing to shelter other families. I had an active forum, had many others willing to donate items, time and money. Had a website and local television coverage.

Then the glitch..........city and state gov. did not want evacuees in that state and what evacuees they did want they wanted control over.

I spent a week making some amazing connections.

Had a cell phone # in which I could stay in contact with an evacuee at the dome.

Knew a red cross worker in the thick of it all who could organize people who wanted help besides my contact. Had people ready to come.

Made conact with a national leader of a major church who opened up an apartment complex for housing, free temporarily.

Had truckloads of clothing and household good ready.

Had an African American group like Urban League ready to make job connesctions.

Had gas money, had a cdl driver.

All I was lacking was one, yes one bus to transport.

I called every church, school, rental co I could, in the entire STATE. I begged and pleaded. Let me assure you the amount of work I put in was monumental. I accomplished this all in a week.

Here is where it all fell apart.

My co founders didn't like me stealing their thunder even though they had less time to offer so got less done. They disagreed with the image we were presenting on the website.

The image became controversial because the city council refused to allow us to give the help saying all evacuees to the state must be funneled through them and that the evacuees preferred the convention center downtown to sharing homes.

I said B.S. to that, co founders wanted it shut down. I was caught between the control issues of the co founders and the 130 forum member homes plus other friends who now expected me to keep running the show. No one had any answers, no one had a bus. Everyone expected me to keep producing "miracles".

Another local charity started to slam us, they felt they were better suited to offer help, felt that we were infringing upon their charity territory. They did what they could to discredit us without even knowing us.

Another week went by, my only lead on a bus was from a cross dresser who knew a truck driver from some bar who had a bus he MAY lend us........

I saw 30 token evacuees roll in to the convention center behind police barricade. There was absolutely no public access.

I never got that bus, all of my sincerest efforts were for not. It was heartbreaking. 


I started using my voice in 6th grade when an abusive bus driver got out of hand. Started a petition, took it to the principal and got in huge trouble. The driver lied and I was FORCED to apologize even though I was right.


Lots more stories like that in between.

After that I did do other things like take a group of African refugees under my wing. They were a month out of living in tents. Prior to that they were nomadic herdsman. I met them on accident because they didn't even know how to lock a window and I found a baby in heavy traffic. He snuck out while Mom was in a shower. I taught many how to drive, helped them get to doctors, showed them how to use the bus etc. I even took my own hard earned dollars buying 50 lb bags of rice, beans etc.


As for my vote, my voice and giving a care in general..........


Still waiting for that bus.........................:flame:


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

hintonlady said:


> I am confident enough in my femininity to accept a subservient role to my DH, out of respect not obligation. It is my duty to nurture him so he is better able to face the harsh world. I keep the home fires burning so to speak.
> 
> .....
> 
> I am but an invisible peasant you see. Leave me be and I am harmless, harm my cubs and you will see a wrath like no other. No honorable man would push me to that so no honorable man need fear that. Seems pretty simple to me.


+1 I totally agree with your entire post (but I only quoted enough to identify which post I'm referring to).


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

I have thought about this thread quite a bit. (not the male/female role thing but the if you care do something call by Ernie).

Over the years I have found it pretty easy to shoot off my mouth on the internet. The proof is in how the rubber meets the road in our daily lives. I was a political activist my entire life until about the time my country elected the movie star. It became obvious to me that my opinion about what was happening and others like me had become such a small part of the society that makes up the USA as to be almost non-existent. We chose to drop out. Maybe that isn't the right way, but it was the only way I could maintain serenity.

Raising our food, working just enough to pay for things we needed so we paid next to nothing in income tax, and not getting involved in the social structure of today's world worked for us. We became like Amish for the most part, while keeping electricity.

Personally I think if everyone did that the system would fall on it's face. You need tax dollars and people shopping to maintain them, these people who want to control our lives. While the bulk of the citizenry is buying the trash that is marketed at WalMart and other store's like them, the country as a whole and the working class in specific is getting gang banged and left for dead.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Bravo Diane.

I chose to drop out too, it was the only lasting change I could make. Being aware of the "drop out" concept in my age group (Gen X) is very rare. (unless you count living on the road with dread locks a dog and panhandling dropping out) We all vote with our consumer dollar and as this economy continues to test our resolve we may see some exciting times. 

It's hard for me to express my true feelings sometimes, even though I do run off at the mouth. I felt bad that perhaps some people may have underestimated me by interpreting my "what cand I do" comment.

I used to get into the thick of what was right and wrong and stand up. I just never succeeded in getting anything done unless it was on a small scale, one person at a time, which I still gladly do. Changing the system is something I gave up on, not from laziness or lack of courage but from actual experience and huge failures.

While not referring to people on here; Lots of people shout revolution, spout off about fighting the system and basically pay lip service about how unbalanced everything is and act like talking heads. When I hear people talk of standing I sort of have to shake my head and chuckle in bemusement. I want to see some action and see less talking. SHOW ME THE MONEY. :rock:

As I mentioned above, I fought like heck and stood alone at the end. So where was everyone at then when I got left holding the ball? (did not mean that literally) As for why I think protest is pointless? One day I saw a group of war supporters on one side of a road and anti war activists on the other. All it was, was a bunch of non sensical shouting. No one made a point, it was sort of a circus that I drove right through and on to my life uptown. Maybe I honked, who knows and who knew for whom.

Perhpas those folks would have better served by knowing who their elected officials were and protesting outside of their homes, writing a huge letter campaign, seeking sympathetic media, having fund raisers, trying to convince young men to join the peace corps instead. Take out full page adds showing deceased young soldiers with their stories, little Johnny here went to church, had a dog, loved his Momma etc.

I'm no expert but ranting with a group of fellow foam at the mouthers only gets folks arrested, people see it but no one really cares. We need a unifying cause, we need a unifying leader. Divided we stand united we will fall.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

i am reminded of something that i read as a young man, still in my teens;

*they came for the Jews and i said nothing,

they came for the gays and i said nothing,

they came for the catholics and i said nothing,


then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything........*


ranks right up there with "*for evil will flurish when good men do nothing*."



just my .02

dean


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## Rondah (Apr 1, 2008)

I need to stop reading this thread...it pushes all my paranoid buttons. Reminds me of one of my favorite lines from a movie:

"What is that word, for when you know people are out to get you, starts with a 'P' ?"

"Paranoid?"

"No. That other one; 'Perceptive'


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Being an activist can include leading by example. It doesn't matter how many letters or phones calls are made to your representatives. That seems the most inefficient way to get anything done. What DOES have an impact is how and where the money gets spent or invested.

Why hide from the spy satellites when they fly over? That's the best time to wave your American flag, sunbathing nude, and sipping on a beer. Just relax, smile, and wave when they go by.

I agree with the poster who lives like the Amish with electricity, that the system would collapse and fall on it's face if we all stopped spending. Surround yourself with many good friends, and have potlucks frequently. Giving and sharing can't be outlawed, taxed, or monitored.

Time to plant another charity tree.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

longshot38 said:


> i am reminded of something that i read as a young man, still in my teens;
> 
> *they came for the Jews and i said nothing,
> 
> ...



Tell me they come for somebody O.K.?
I didn't see much happening during Waco or Ruby Ridge. NO ONE but a couple of environmentalist ever showed up when I asked for help when the drain commission dug up my place and charged me for it. My husband and I rode in the State Police Car completely unobserved. Like I said.........internet talk is CHEAP!!!


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## Mr.Hoppes (Sep 30, 2006)

JGex said:


> Well, I guess civil liberties just don't mean carp any more.
> 
> Hello Police State.


Sheep

the world has become a majority of Sheep. 


The more they call people pariniod the more I see it in their Eyes...SHEEP.

Sheep aren't bad, just sheep. They do what they're told and they live safe meaningless lifes serving their masters. Most sheep don't realize that they serve or to whom they serve. It's a Part of why America is dead and burried and Amerika is going all over the place doing things they have no business doing or thinking about doing, to others or their own people. Period. 

Tear for America 

Fear for Amerika

Fly your flag upside down.


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## Mr.Hoppes (Sep 30, 2006)

MamaTiger said:


> It's quite refreshing to see someone else put into words (elequent ones at that) the idea that men are to be the ones doing the fighting, the protecting while women are to keep the home fires burning and encourage and support their menfolk doing the fighting.
> 
> When I express these views, I am often rediculed...but this idea has totally changed my marriage and my life. To say my dh and I have come a long way from where we started almost 20 years ago would be an understatement. lol


The concept of women fighting in the military became more and more popular as people noticed that women who used to wear dresses were wearing pants. Pants like a Man. There is one way it began. When Women started wearing Mens clothes and doing jobs that traditionally ( since the Bible ) Men did. People wanted equality a concept that virtually signed americas little girls into the Military.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

diane said:


> I have thought about this thread quite a bit. (not the male/female role thing but the if you care do something call by Ernie).
> 
> Over the years I have found it pretty easy to shoot off my mouth on the internet. The proof is in how the rubber meets the road in our daily lives. I was a political activist my entire life until about the time my country elected the movie star. It became obvious to me that my opinion about what was happening and others like me had become such a small part of the society that makes up the USA as to be almost non-existent. We chose to drop out. Maybe that isn't the right way, but it was the only way I could maintain serenity.
> 
> ...


What you're talking about is sometimes referred to as the Benedictine Option. The Benedictine order essentially believed that society was entering a dark age (it was) and withdrew from it to live spiritual lives and preserve themselves, Christianity, and cultural knowledge for the future. Most of what has survived to us today out of the Dark Ages comes from them.

So what you're doing is more or less what me and my family are doing as well ... slowly extricating ourselves from the machine. There's nothing shameful in keeping your head down and picking your battles. I'm a rip-the-bandaid-off-quick kind of guy so I was all for just unhooking on day one. My wife, however, ain't quite the same way and likes some of the little things society brings like bananas and electricity.  So we compromised by withdrawing slowly and reducing our independence on these things. 

There comes a point where you tell the world, "Hey, I've done all I can and you didn't listen so I'm going into this bunker and not coming out until I think you have it all sorted out." I'm not going down with the ship. Not when I have my own lifeboat ready.

For now it's still safe for me to agitate for change, and most days I feel we're not yet at the point where it's pointless to do so. As a result ... I agitate. A lot. As soon as things start getting a little more locked down and we lose the freedom to do so, I'll probably just unhook and disappear. That's my plan anyway. Until my last son leaves home. Then we'll see once I know my family won't starve to death while I'm in prison.


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## naturewoman (Nov 12, 2002)

hintonlady said:


> Lots of people shout revolution, spout off about fighting the system and basically pay lip service about how unbalanced everything is and act like talking heads. When I hear people talk of standing I sort of have to shake my head and chuckle in bemusement. I want to see some action and see less talking. SHOW ME THE MONEY. :rock:


You won't be able to see much on an individual basis. One voice is but a whisper. Whispers joined in large enough numbers become a shout. But if everyone quits whispering, there will be no shout.



> We need a unifying cause, we need a unifying leader. Divided we stand united we will fall.


That's what I'm hoping Obama will be. He is reaching out to the people in grass roots organizations. He wants to hear our shout. I hope he will listen and let us become stronger...and help us to make the necessary beginning steps to change this country. We've lost our direction for the majority of people. Instead it's become a country run by the wealthy, for the wealthy. We need to take it back.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Oh, I wanted to explore an additional concept along those lines and with Sorokin in mind. 

Pitirim Sorokin put out the concept that all societies cycle through three states:

1. the ideational - A pursuit of spiritual and religious beliefs
2. the idealistic - A pursuit of scientific concepts and knowledge 
3. the sensate - A pursuit of materialism and sensation (hedonistic)

When they reach # 3 they essentially start over. Occasionally events may help us move from one state to another (Barbarians sacking Rome destroyed the sensate state and moved the people more into spiritual beliefs again). Anyway, the books of Sorokin are all there and he goes deeper into it than I even understand ... but my questions are this:

1. What do those of us who are out of step with the cycles of society (in a religious mode 1 where society is in mode 3) do to preserve ourselves until mode 1 comes around again?

2. What obligations do we owe a society which condemns us for essentially being out of step?

3. Is it just as wrong for me to try and maintain state 1 as it would be for someone in state 3 to try and transition us along faster?

Heady thoughts as I dig potatoes and pick peas.


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## naturewoman (Nov 12, 2002)

Ernie, I'm not sure I agree with those steps. While on the surface it may appear as you say, but the step three is not altogether hedonistic. Some of society is, but not all of it. Much of society is actually a blend of some or all steps. And I think step three is also a better place for people who are not hedonistic, but also don't need the helplessness of step one. They have the power within themselves to grow spiritually (not necessarily meaning religion here)...where as step one is a lot of religion, but not so much spiritual growth.

And I'm not sure a society should ever go back to step one...that is regression.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> Fly your flag upside down.


Apparently the DNC agrees and made a picture of BO with the flag upside down as a background.




.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> 1. What do those of us who are out of step with the cycles of society (in a religious mode 1 where society is in mode 3) do to preserve ourselves until mode 1 comes around again?
> 
> 2. What obligations do we owe a society which condemns us for essentially being out of step?
> 
> 3. Is it just as wrong for me to try and maintain state 1 as it would be for someone in state 3 to try and transition us along faster?


1. Know thyself, be true to thine self. Moral fiber, moral fortitude. Be not a slave to the opinions of others be a master of your own fate.

2.Obligation belongs to self and offspring alone. The remainder is either free will or servitude. If your will is to help others, do so. 

3.It is wrong to impose ones will on another, ones rights should not impose on the rights of others.


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## naturewoman (Nov 12, 2002)

uyk7 said:


> Apparently the DNC agrees and made a picture of BO with the flag upside down as a background.


Actually it would be helpful to tell it as it actually is, not what Worldnetdaily and all the right wing blogs are spouting.



> Matt Chandler with the Obama campaign says the flag is not upside down. He says *it is a stylized flag designed to blend the stars on Senator Obama's shirt with the flag blowing in the wind*.
> 
> Natalie Wyeth with the Democratic National Convention Committee sent 9NEWS the following statement Saturday night: "The DNCC community credentials *incorporate patriotic design elements. They do not depict an actual American flag*. The DNCC has full and complete respect for the flag and all rules of display."


www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=97788&catid=188 - 71k 




> Obama credential criticized for upside down flag.
> 
> which is simply another indication that *some morons have way too much time on their hands to investigate unpatriotism*. After all, the only unpatriotic Americans are non-Americans who fly airplanes into our skyscrapers, right? Aren't we more likely to be killed by them than by Barack Obama? I'd like to think so...


http://digg.com/odd_stuff/Obama_credential_criticized_for_upside_down_flag
This link shows a picture of the image.

Being a graphics person, I can understand why they used the stars on his shirt instead of trying to put them behind his head, or behind the text. It would have been very difficult to make out Obama or text with that busy graphic image behind it. If they had placed the stars in the upper left corner, it would have been difficult to fit the text and Obama's head in without cluttering up the design.

But then again, this is just one more example of trying to make ridiculous statements about Obama. And yes...it is all sounding pretty desperate.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I wouldn't consider an upside down flag unpatriotic, maybe the average Joe should look up flag code before spewing off about it.



> The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.


http://www.americanflags.com/usflagcode.html

That being said I doubt a candidate would make such a bold statement anyhow. Incidentally we are verging on times in which flying ole glory upside down may actually be quite correct.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> Actually it would be helpful to tell it as it actually is, not what Worldnetdaily and all the right wing blogs are spouting.


I have seen a lot of depictions of the flag and that image looks like a flag. I don't care what the DNC calls it. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is a duck.



> I wouldn't consider an upside down flag unpatriotic, maybe the average Joe should look up flag code before spewing off about it.


(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property. http://www.americanflags.com/usflagcode.html


.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

uyk7 said:


> I have seen a lot of depictions of the flag and that image looks like a flag. I don't care what the DNC calls it. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is a duck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In that case, it would seem an appropriate time to fly the flag upside down.


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## Mr.Hoppes (Sep 30, 2006)

pickapeppa said:


> In that case, it would seem an appropriate time to fly the flag upside down.


AMEN!


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