# Girl bitten and thrown by draft



## Lisa in WA

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2w4Lt_pwR4[/ame]

You may have seen this gif on facebook. It's been making the rounds for a couple of years. What amazes me is that people whom I judge to be fairly rational people are saying this child gets what she deserves, because she slaps the horse on the barrel and pushes his chest. 

I never really noticed the disconnect between non-horse people and horse people before but reading the comments here and all over the internet...whoa. There truly is one. People truly seem to believe that child swatting a draft is the same as swatting a puppy.

One wonders what they think of a person using a crop?


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## light rain

I wonder what transpired the 5 minutes before this video was done...


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## Maura

This is what a horse would do to a foal. His way of saying &#8220;knock it off, kid&#8221;. I don&#8217;t think he meant to hurt her, just correct her. I can&#8217;t see how she could have hurt him with what she did, but there is something going on. Possibly the horse was in pain. Possibly it&#8217;s just him, in which case he should not be around children.

Pretty scary. Was she hurt? Hurt bad?


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## Bret

Man and beast can only put up with so much. I have been bitten harder and thrown further. 

The little girl looks like she has been around horses. The horse used some restraint. I'd say they have worked out their differences and have new mutual respect and understanding.


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## Lisa in WA

If one of my horses did this to anyone, especially a child...it would be gone or have a very serious come to Jesus meeting with someone. 

I've been around a lot of mares and foals and NEVER seen one bite and throw a foal. Ever. A lot of nipping and more threatening to bite but never what this horse does.

So for those who think the horse has adequate provocation here: what about the crop question? How about someone smacking a horse on the rump? Is the horse justified in kicking?

Where is the line where a horse gets to bite viciously because it doesn't like what a human does?

Am also curious as to what people actually thing the kid did wrong. 
She's in a bad situation trying to move around unhaltered horses in a pasture, she's not wearing a helmet (I made my kids wear them when they went out to catch their horses and ponies) and it looks like she might have treats in her pockets which is not a good idea at all and could be the cause of the entire situation. Horse isn't getting what he wants.


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## Bret

Seriously, I see your point. I have zero tolerance for any aggression in my cows. I don't train my cows. There is only one option for them.


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## MDKatie

I'm not making any excuses for the horse biting her, but it's clear she's not disciplining the horse, she's being mean to it. The horse ignored her slapping him the first time (at least that's the first slap we see), and then when she comes BACK to push at him, he reacts. 

It's not very easy to judge the situation based on a 14 second clip, but kids should not pester animals. Animals can't tell us when they're being harassed by kids, they only react how they know how to react. The horse should have moved away. Perhaps he's young. Perhaps he's a jerk. Who knows?

That's like parents who get mad because a dog bit their child. They didn't realize the child had been pulling its ears, tail, sitting on it, etc. Animals should first move away from the pesky kid, but not all know to do that.


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## MO_cows

The horse was unrestrained. He could have taken the "flight" option to get away from the kid if he was annoyed by her attentions. He took the "fight" option, showing he does not have adequate respect for humans instilled in him. It especially shows that disrespect because he came at her after she pushed on him, like she tried to make him move. She didn't have enough "rank" to make him move, in his eyes. I bet some training could turn that horse around. He could have easily stomped her after he threw her down if he was really a mean or dangerous horse by nature.


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## Lisa in WA

MDKatie said:


> I'm not making any excuses for the horse biting her, but it's clear she's not disciplining the horse, she's being mean to it. The horse ignored her slapping him the first time (at least that's the first slap we see), and then when she comes BACK to push at him, he reacts.
> 
> It's not very easy to judge the situation based on a 14 second clip, but kids should not pester animals. Animals can't tell us when they're being harassed by kids, they only react how they know how to react. The horse should have moved away. Perhaps he's young. Perhaps he's a jerk. Who knows?
> 
> That's like parents who get mad because a dog bit their child. They didn't realize the child had been pulling its ears, tail, sitting on it, etc. Animals should first move away from the pesky kid, but not all know to do that.


She's actually not being mean to it at all. A shove to the barrel...a push to the shoulder. That's how you move a horse over. And slapping a horse is not mean. Horses actually prefer a good firm pat or even a slap then a caress. Light pressure irritates them. A horse can get an affectionate slap on the rump from a person with a lot more pressure than that child is giving.

Horses aren't even remotely like dogs. This is what I'm talking about. The difference between horse people and non-horse people. Non-horse people see a little brat being mean. Horse people see a kid who might be in a bad situation and a little over-confident but a horse that needs serious discipline.

**horse people not necessarily meaning someone who just owns a horse. I've seen more well-meaning messes from people who think they know far more than they do than I care to remember.


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## MDKatie

Here we go. Non horse people? You have absolutely zero idea how much horse experience I have, but you just assume because I have a different opinion I have no clue about horses? And I was NOT comparing horse behavior to dog behavior. Perhaps you'd consider re-reading my post. My post was about how some kids pester animals and the parents automatically jump to punishing the animal instead of seeing WHY the kid got bit/kicked/etc. 

So you think she's trying to move the horse over? She's doing a craptastic job of it, if that's what she's trying to do. It is clear to me she is NOT trying to move the horse over. If one intends to move a horse over, one would use steady pressure until the horse moves. Slapping it on the ribs and then half-heartedly pushing it on the chest then walking away is NOT the way to move a horse over. Does she want it to move sideways? Then why push on the chest. Does she want him to move backwards? Then why hit on the side? Perhaps she's using unclear, spastic methods and the horse has NO clue what she wants him to do and why he's hitting him.


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## Lisa in WA

MDKatie said:


> Here we go. Non horse people? You have absolutely zero idea how much horse experience I have, but you just assume because I have a different opinion I have no clue about horses? And I was NOT comparing horse behavior to dog behavior. Perhaps you'd consider re-reading my post. My post was about how some kids pester animals and the parents automatically jump to punishing the animal instead of seeing WHY the kid got bit/kicked/etc.
> 
> So you think she's trying to move the horse over? She's doing a craptastic job of it, if that's what she's trying to do. It is clear to me she is NOT trying to move the horse over. If one intends to move a horse over, one would use steady pressure until the horse moves. Slapping it on the ribs and then half-heartedly pushing it on the chest then walking away is NOT the way to move a horse over. Does she want it to move sideways? Then why push on the chest. Does she want him to move backwards? Then why hit on the side? Perhaps she's using unclear, spastic methods and the horse has NO clue what she wants him to do and why he's hitting him.


No I dont, but assuming not much given your statement that the child was "being mean to it". Unclear messages to the horse are not adequate reason for a horse to react like that. Period.


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## MDKatie

basketti said:


> No I dont, but assuming not much given your statement that the child was "being mean to it". Unclear messages to the horse are not adequate reason for a horse to react like that. Period.


Well you assume wrong. I see pestering an animal and giving it unclear signals and just general "crappiness" towards an animal being mean. I don't care if it's a horse, dog, cat, mouse, etc. I do not tolerate children treating animals like crap. Our children are taught to respect animals. Our animals are also taught to respect children. I never said it was ok that the horse bit her, only that there is a reason.


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## Lisa in WA

MDKatie said:


> Well you assume wrong. I see pestering an animal and giving it unclear signals and just general "crappiness" towards an animal being mean. I don't care if it's a horse, dog, cat, mouse, etc. I do not tolerate children treating animals like crap. Our children are taught to respect animals. Our animals are also taught to respect children. I never said it was ok that the horse bit her, only that there is a reason.


I guess we differ in what "treating an animal like crap" actually is.

As far as unclear signals, if every rider guilty of unclear signals to his horse (about 100 percent at some point in their lives) was judged guilty of meanness, I guess horse people would be guilty of animal cruelty across the board.


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## MDKatie

basketti said:


> I guess we differ in what "treating an animal like crap" actually is.


I guess so.


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## wr

It's hard to tell what the girl's goal was but I'm pretty firm on the belief that horses who bite, kick or otherwise abuse humans are dangerous and the behavior itself affected my decisions as to further training, selling with a strong caveat or taking more drastic measures. 

The kid may have done something wrong or perhaps she had a treat in her pocket that she wasn't sharing but the end result is that a kid that size is not capable or hurting a horse with a slap or a shove and even if they aren't skilled in horsemanship, any horse that would toss a child vs a quick nip is displaying serious behavioral issues. 

Based on the the behavior displayed, I would suggest that the horse is displaying behavior that is fairly typical of a stallion at a certain age but that would be speculation.


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## wr

Bret said:


> Seriously, I see your point. I have zero tolerance for any aggression in my cows. I don't train my cows. There is only one option for them.


I've always culled cattle for temperament and I'm unforgiving to the point that I called the butcher and shot a cow that I had conditionally sold for big money.

If she had been protecting her own calf, I may have cooled down and reconsidered but she rolled me through the pasture because I was trying to get a calf on a heifer and there isn't a cheque big enough to allow me to sleep at night if something like that hurt or killed someone.


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## Lisa in WA

MDKatie said:


> Here we go. Non horse people? You have absolutely zero idea how much horse experience I have, but you just assume because I have a different opinion I have no clue about horses? And I was NOT comparing horse behavior to dog behavior. Perhaps you'd consider re-reading my post. My post was about how some kids pester animals and the parents automatically jump to punishing the animal instead of seeing WHY the kid got bit/kicked/etc.
> 
> So you think she's trying to move the horse over? She's doing a craptastic job of it, if that's what she's trying to do. It is clear to me she is NOT trying to move the horse over. If one intends to move a horse over, one would use steady pressure until the horse moves. Slapping it on the ribs and then half-heartedly pushing it on the chest then walking away is NOT the way to move a horse over. Does she want it to move sideways? Then why push on the chest. Does she want him to move backwards? Then why hit on the side? Perhaps she's using unclear, spastic methods and the horse has NO clue what she wants him to do and why he's hitting him.


I missed the part about steady pressure. Actually, that isn't the best option. Horses tend to lean into or ignore steady pressure. Far better to use a slap, tickle or pulsing pressure to move w horse over.


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## romysbaskets

It would be far easier to decide the horse's behavior and why he did this...if we saw what she did before the slap. Her face is not very clear but horses respond to glaring eyes and aggressive body language. On the farm, there was a horse we were told not to stare into his eyes. He was not mean, didn't hurt anyone but reacted to eye contact. This horse could have had rocks thrown at it, been hit many times before and abused prior to this video. She looks at the horse with a mean look prior to the slap and when she is pushing on the chest portion. No excuse to hurt a human being but abused animals do at times. This can be trained right out of a horse normally but the circumstances of the horse is not clear...Hope the girl was ok, this horse needs worked with! Also important here is that the girl needs worked with as well!


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## Lisa in WA

Good grief...I didn't have the volume turned on when I picked that YouTube version of it. Holy carp. People are out of their minds.


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## haypoint

I've owned draft horses for nearly 40 years.
I can report only one bite situation and two kick situations. Neither reflect an evil horse.
I had a 6 year old stallion in a standing stall. Next to this stall was the milk cow's manger. While I was milking the cow, my 3 year old son was standing in the manger, away from getting kicked by the cow. The stallion grabbed my son by the arm (he had a heavy coat on) and picked him up, then set him down. He didn't bite, while he could have broken his arm. Don't know why he did that and he never offered to bite after.

My wife, clad in a black snowmobile outfit, entered the barn, saw a piece of twine behind a horse tethered there. As she approached from the rear and bent down, the horse kicked her in the face, doing considerable damage. The horse was in the barn because other horses had been picking on her in the pasture.

I offered to help a neighbor with his 6 horse hitch in a parade. I was walking along insuring the crowd stayed back, while being close enough to grab a lead horse's bridle. While the parade came to a stop, I stepped away so people could get a good picture without me in the way. I saw a small child, perhaps 3 or 4 years old, step from the sidewalk and walk quickly towards the lead horse's hind leg. Just as the child's hand reached to touch the horse, I grabbed him and pulled him back. At that instant, I was kicked. The hoof caught me directly in the chest, fractions of an inch from the child's head. In fact, the hoof caught my hand that I was holding him with. The force knocked the wind out of me, broke my hand, cracked my sternum and threw me on my back. As I fell, I set the boy down and he walked back to the sidewalk. His mother took his hand and they walked away. I spent three days in hospital. Not the horse's fault.

You can armchair quarterback all you want. These were not mean animals. They were not cases of knowing who's boss. They were isolated events. Expect the unexpected. 

If the girl that got thrown was a stranger to the horse, where are her parents? You don't expect a 40 pound girl to be safe around a 2000 horse. Sorry folks, the whole world is not a petting zoo.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvA6sr6kZBY[/ame]


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## Irish Pixie

The kid was dumb, not disrespectful. It looks like she has treats in her pocket, and the horse may have been in her space wanting one- can't tell because the video doesn't show what was happening. She tried to be alpha and the horse called her on it. The horse was disrespectful, not the kid. It was definitely an aggressive act by the horse.


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## MDKatie

basketti said:


> I missed the part about steady pressure. Actually, that isn't the best option. Horses tend to lean into or ignore steady pressure. Far better to use a slap, tickle or pulsing pressure to move w horse over.


I have never had to apply pressure for more than 1-2 seconds for a horse to move over. It's pretty clear to me the girl in the video shown was not trying to get the horse to move over. If she was, she wasn't doing it very well.


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## romysbaskets

haypoint said:


> I've owned draft horses for nearly 40 years.
> I can report only one bite situation and two kick situations. Neither reflect an evil horse.
> I had a 6 year old stallion in a standing stall. Next to this stall was the milk cow's manger. While I was milking the cow, my 3 year old son was standing in the manger, away from getting kicked by the cow. The stallion grabbed my son by the arm (he had a heavy coat on) and picked him up, then set him down. He didn't bite, while he could have broken his arm. Don't know why he did that and he never offered to bite after.
> 
> My wife, clad in a black snowmobile outfit, entered the barn, saw a piece of twine behind a horse tethered there. As she approached from the rear and bent down, the horse kicked her in the face, doing considerable damage. The horse was in the barn because other horses had been picking on her in the pasture.
> 
> I offered to help a neighbor with his 6 horse hitch in a parade. I was walking along insuring the crowd stayed back, while being close enough to grab a lead horse's bridle. While the parade came to a stop, I stepped away so people could get a good picture without me in the way. I saw a small child, perhaps 3 or 4 years old, step from the sidewalk and walk quickly towards the lead horse's hind leg. Just as the child's hand reached to touch the horse, I grabbed him and pulled him back. At that instant, I was kicked. The hoof caught me directly in the chest, fractions of an inch from the child's head. In fact, the hoof caught my hand that I was holding him with. The force knocked the wind out of me, broke my hand, cracked my sternum and threw me on my back. As I fell, I set the boy down and he walked back to the sidewalk. His mother took his hand and they walked away. I spent three days in hospital. Not the horse's fault.
> 
> You can armchair quarterback all you want. These were not mean animals. They were not cases of knowing who's boss. They were isolated events. Expect the unexpected.
> 
> If the girl that got thrown was a stranger to the horse, where are her parents? You don't expect a 40 pound girl to be safe around a 2000 horse. Sorry folks, the whole world is not a petting zoo.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvA6sr6kZBY


I am so sorry you were hurt protecting the child! It is always important that children are supervised around horses! I am so glad you were able to prevent a tragedy but what a price you paid....

I was bit as a child once by a pony I didn't know was just mean. The cousins who's pony it was, just laughed at me. I had a huge bruise on my behind. I was also thrown from a horse before in my early teens. The horse seemed friendly and I do know how to ride.... It just took off running and then stopped, which threw me over it's head. My cousins thought it was funny to put me on that horse, knowing it did things like that. It knocked the air out of me and then the horse walked over to me and kicked me a couple times but not that hard..I remember thinking that if the horse really wanted to hurt me...it could have kicked me way harder. I regained my breath and yelled at the horse to back up and it did! I had a firm talk with that horse afterward, and got right back on it. The horse never threw me again. I did learn not to trust my cousins again....

Haypoint: Yes, I do believe that what you say is true, isolated incidents can just happen and we should always be prepared for them! I would never allow my grandchildren to do what was done in a video and neither would their Moms! We were downtown in Denver with our grandkids before Christmas. They flew in to visit with my oldest daughter. My grandson walked right up to a draft horse who was harnessed to a carriage. I pulled him back and asked the person if he could pet her horse. She told my grandson how to pet her horse and where. She told him that he does not like to be petted on his chest but you could pet his shoulder. I held onto him as he reached out. I held him away from the horse so he could barely reach the shoulder. There was no issue but even so, I will always be cautious and careful!


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## oregon woodsmok

The expression on the child's face at the very start of the film is really peevish. I suspect that we didn't see the important part of the interaction.

Children who don't know how to behave around horses should not be unsupervised around horses. Loose horses in a pasture tend to be dangerous, not because they are hostile, but because they are big and move fast. General horse herd behavior is dangerous to fragile humans, because it involves very large animals running and pushing and shoving. That child was not behaving well and the horse was loose in a large area. Not a good situation. I would not have permitted that.

I don;t care what the provocation was. If that had been my horse, he would have been mighty sorry. I suspect if I'd seen the whole scene, that child might have been pretty darn sorry, too, from me, not the horse.


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## light rain

I rode friend's horses and ponies as a child and young adult. Learned to really keep an eye on the mouth of the Shetland. 

When I was a young adult I was riding at a riding stable with a group of friends. The horse I was riding decided to throw its head down. I went forward, stayed on and then the horse threw its head back. I believe my forehead hit the leather part of the halter. Stayed on, knocked senseless and didn't realize what had happened until a friend turned around to say something. I didn't complain to the owners. I feel animals often react badly 'cause they have been treated badly or not trained well.

I still have an inch or so scar over my right eye. A good story as well as the time I saw my first husband thrown into a pile of manure. Yep, good memories... :heh:


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## aoconnor1

I am a long experienced horsewoman and have had several drafts and draft crosses. While I am sorry the child got thrown to the ground, I have to wonder...WHERE WHERE HER PARENTS AND WHAT DID THEY THINK THEY WERE DOING?!! Letting the child act that way with the horse, slapping his side and then shoving his shoulder...the parent/s should have been paying attention to the kid that close to a huge horse rather than filming and not being there to stop the reaction the horse had. I never, ever allow my grand daughter to be aggressive with my horses because she isn't big enough to back herself up should push come to shove. I am the alpha mare in my herd, all of them move away from me at my voice or a hand on them. None of them ever have tried either biting or kicking me. However, if my grandchild was the one moving amongst them it would be a different story. She is small and unable to control them as I do, and she could possibly be hurt, even killed, if I wasn't there helping her move around them and giving her direction. She never is allowed to slap them or bully them, ever. She knows how to move them from the front with a hand to the chest, but she doesn't shove them or slap at them, she simply touches their chests and tells them to back up. That is what they are trained to do, and that is what SHE is trained to do.

I'm of the opinion that, while the horse obviously did the most wrong because he reacted harshly, I do think also that the child forced the incident by attempting to bully the horse (look at her face, she isn't being sweet and calm), and then the horse responded to that as if she were a younger herd member that needed correction.

I HAVE seen an adult horse shove or bite at a younger horse that needed correcting. I have a large herd, it happens a lot with yearlings and older youngsters that have to learn to respect the lead horses. My horses are not going to take that behavior, even from a child. That doesn't mean it is okay for a kid to get thrown like that, but it is reasonably understandable if you have watched a herd with young horses in it and good lead horses.


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## romysbaskets

light rain said:


> I rode friend's horses and ponies as a child and young adult. Learned to really keep an eye on the mouth of the Shetland.
> 
> When I was a young adult I was riding at a riding stable with a group of friends. The horse I was riding decided to throw its head down. I went forward, stayed on and then the horse threw its head back. I believe my forehead hit the leather part of the halter. Stayed on, knocked senseless and didn't realize what had happened until a friend turned around to say something. I didn't complain to the owners. I feel animals often react badly 'cause they have been treated badly or not trained well.
> 
> I still have an inch or so scar over my right eye. A good story as well as the time I saw my first husband thrown into a pile of manure. Yep, good memories... :heh:


The only bite I ever got was from the Shetland pony of my cousins! I went to get on and the pony turned his head around and bit me in the behind. One heck of a bruise. Glad you were able to stay on your wild ride! I have heard many stories of broken bones from being thrown off a horse...the saddest one was Christopher Reeves during a competition. Imagine if that big draft horse really wanted to hurt that little girl? I have a feeling that she must have been picking on him to begin with...it sure seems like they were videotaping for a reason???? Would you even want to post something like that happening to your child? Yeah....horse manure...we stepped in that before but never fell into a pile, your poor hubby!


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## Maura

Stallions do treat foals this way.

Haypoint, your experience at the parade is why I took the time to rub my donkey&#8217;s legs, wave my hands around, all the stuff a child might do, including hugging legs. Why, because the affection of children can easily misread. I realize not everyone will do this with their horses and donkeys, but I did not want an episode like the one you described.

It would be interesting to know the background story. Was this a new horse? Was this a sick or injured horse? What else was the child doing? How much damage was done to the child?


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## haypoint

Maura said:


> Stallions do treat foals this way.
> 
> Haypoint, your experience at the parade is why I took the time to rub my donkeyâs legs, wave my hands around, all the stuff a child might do, including hugging legs. Why, because the affection of children can easily misread. I realize not everyone will do this with their horses and donkeys, but I did not want an episode like the one you described.
> 
> It would be interesting to know the background story. Was this a new horse? Was this a sick or injured horse? What else was the child doing? How much damage was done to the child?


The gelding had been castrated a few weeks before. Perfectly healthy. The child approached the horse at about a 45 degree angle. Since the horses were stopped, he could turn his head and see us behind him. Not wanting to grab someone's child needlessly, I waited, hoping the child would stop. I grabbed him, pulled him back and caught the hoof in the center of my chest. The child was uninjured. The hoof missed his face by a fraction of an inch. The mother had made no attempt to get the child back on the curb, witnessed the accident, was later questioned by police and made no contact with me. She knew I was hospitalized. 
The injury caused my hand to swell double it's size and left a red horse shoe print on my chest.

Your desensitizing methods are helpful. But no guarantee that in a different situation, they can still kick. 

Once I had a quiet team of drafts. Nothing bothered them. But one day friends stopped over to visit. One person climbed up on the fence. To the team, he looked 9 feet tall. That really spooked them. Took a good long while to get them over that fear. 

I had a team that were traffic safe, cars, trucks, motorcycles, four wheelers, nothing bothered them. Then an old guy on a bicycle went by. That nearly sent us into the ditch. I spent weeks pedaling a bike around the pasture, getting them used to a bike.


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## Stonybrook

I think to know what really happened you would have to see what happened before this video. As often happens, I'm sure there is more to the story than is seen here. Probably lots of wrong to go around. Personally, I'm not sure a horse that has not been around little people (aka kids) would view them the same way as an adult. Maybe some, but I doubt all of them would.


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## Irish Pixie

I managed a large stable with a hack line, and we'd get people up from NYC and Jersey a lot during the summer. We'd always ask how many had horse experience and I lost count on how many would tell me that they knew all about horses because they read a book and petted a cop's horse in Central Park when they were a kid.


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## Bret

I read all of the books about horses from my library. My take away was that it was easier to get into a horse than out of a horse. I never petted a horse in central park. I saddled and road a pony when I was a teenager. I make no claims about any experience accept that it was all fun.


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## M5farm

Every Horse has a personality, Some learn respect from gentle persuasion some need a 
2x4. people think horses are cuddle bunnies.


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## wr

Irish Pixie said:


> I managed a large stable with a hack line, and we'd get people up from NYC and Jersey a lot during the summer. We'd always ask how many had horse experience and I lost count on how many would tell me that they knew all about horses because they read a book and petted a cop's horse in Central Park when they were a kid.


I operated to dude string in Banff for a year and I've worked at a ski resort and in both cases, if you ask people on a scale of 1 - 5 how much experience they have at either, they will almost always pick 5 and it seems they all calculate the same way. The number reflects the actual times they have been in the presence of a horse or been to a ski hill.


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## painterswife

My three horses would think that child delivered a love tap. No way what she did that we saw had anything to do with how badly the horse reacted.


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## kesoaps

When I first saw this video, I followed the link to youtube and was downright appalled at what grown people were saying about this child. The names they called her are not fit for print, and she'll be forced to see this as she grows up. 

SHE was not at fault. No way, no how. Her parents, perhaps, should have been there supervising.

The horse would be DEAD if it were mine.

D.E.A.D. Shot in the head. No way does it deserve to be around people with that attitude. I don't care WHO pushes his rib cage or swats him. You simply do not risk the safety of humans in favor of a cranky horse.


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## MDKatie

Even when I owned horses I never claimed to be a horse person because to be honest, most horse people (at least in the area where we lived) were totally nuts, and not in a good way.


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## Lisa in WA

MDKatie said:


> Even when I owned horses I never claimed to be a horse person because to be honest, most horse people (at least in the area where we lived) were totally nuts, and not in a good way.


I've had had my horses all over the country and in my experience, the supposed horsepeople who were nuts, were generally not knowledgable horsemen, but just people with emotional issues latching onto horses. Rescues tend to be the worst for having this type of person.
And usually kooky women, though I hate to say that. There is no drama like barn drama.


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## wr

kesoaps said:


> When I first saw this video, I followed the link to youtube and was downright appalled at what grown people were saying about this child. The names they called her are not fit for print, and she'll be forced to see this as she grows up.
> 
> SHE was not at fault. No way, no how. Her parents, perhaps, should have been there supervising.
> 
> The horse would be DEAD if it were mine.
> 
> D.E.A.D. Shot in the head. No way does it deserve to be around people with that attitude. I don't care WHO pushes his rib cage or swats him. You simply do not risk the safety of humans in favor of a cranky horse.


Welcome back! I hope everything has been going well for you and your mustangs. Are you still training and participating in Mustang Challenges?


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## light rain

We saw just a snippet of video. We can assume a lot on limited info. 

What happened to the girl and what happened to the horse? That information would give everyone posting here either a supportive or a negative seal on their opinions. Beginning to sound like one of those no win political debates...


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## Annsni

wr said:


> I operated to dude string in Banff for a year and I've worked at a ski resort and in both cases, if you ask people on a scale of 1 - 5 how much experience they have at either, they will almost always pick 5 and it seems they all calculate the same way. The number reflects the actual times they have been in the presence of a horse or been to a ski hill.


It would be interesting to ask people around here how they would rate themselves. See, I think of a 5 as professional big time trainers/riders and 1 as beginners so I'd put myself at a 3.  I've been riding for 45 years, have ridden to 2nd level dressage and worked with Grand Prix horses, can ride a bunch of different horses and can train basics with them. But I'd certainly never put myself at a 5.


----------



## Annsni

basketti said:


> I see. You believe the noble horsey, reasoned out that little Susie needed some discipline and deliberately grabbed her by the hair, delicately avoiding her skin, after reasoning that it was juuuust the right amount of discipline for said noble horsey to give Lil human girl?


Let a parent do that and the parent would be in jail.


----------



## MO_cows

light rain said:


> We saw just a snippet of video. We can assume a lot on limited info.
> 
> What happened to the girl and what happened to the horse? That information would give everyone posting here either a supportive or a negative seal on their opinions. Beginning to sound like one of those no win political debates...


As far as what occurred before the video started, I don't think it matters. Because the horse was not restrained and could have easily avoided the attention of the girl. Standing his ground and biting, tossing her like he did shows that he considered her lower than himself in "herd rank". Not acceptable, period. Now that doesn't justify the girl mistreating or mishandling a horse, either, she should be taught better too. 

As far as the tone of the thread, there will never be 100% agreement. Everybody has a different body of experience that they respond from. 

It surprised me that somebody said, shoot the horse. I would never decide that based solely on that one short video clip. If the horse did turn out to be incorrigible, I don't have a problem with euthanizing horses in general, but I would try some training first. Especially for a draft, a horse that can really do some work and be useful/productive. 

A couple of people I knew have been killed by horses who got one chance too many, so I am well aware they can't all be corrected. But that one inter-action wasn't enough to assign the death penalty IMHO.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Annsni said:


> Let a parent do that and the parent would be in jail.


We're talking about the horse and it's actions. Not child abuse.


----------



## Annsni

Irish Pixie said:


> We're talking about the horse and it's actions. Not child abuse.


But why do some say "Oh the horse is just disciplining the child!" and yet if a person disciplined in the same way, they would be in jail? It's interesting how a horse can get away with that for some people. :shrug:

We had a horse at our barn that did that twice. I never walked by him without a whip after that. To toss a human being is not a little discipline but something deeply wrong.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Annsni said:


> But why do some say "Oh the horse is just disciplining the child!" and yet if a person disciplined in the same way, they would be in jail? It's interesting how a horse can get away with that for some people. :shrug:
> 
> We had a horse at our barn that did that twice. I never walked by him without a whip after that. To toss a human being is not a little discipline but something deeply wrong.


We had a pony that liked to test limits. If a child or stranger went into his stall he'd turn and present his backside to them, which is a no-no. He never kicked but he was being disrespectful and threatening and we would give hima crack on the butt with a dressage whip, etc and he would stop and behave himself.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Annsni said:


> But why do some say "Oh the horse is just disciplining the child!" and yet if a person disciplined in the same way, they would be in jail? It's interesting how a horse can get away with that for some people. :shrug:
> 
> We had a horse at our barn that did that twice. I never walked by him without a whip after that. To toss a human being is not a little discipline but something deeply wrong.


I don't think the horse should get away with what it did. I think it needs a "come to jesus meeting" right quick.


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't think the horse should get away with what it did. I think it needs a "come to jesus meeting" right quick.


I totally agree with absolute correction of the horse, immediately! But I also would correct the kid as well. There is no reason at all for either one to behave the way they did. And then I would have a little come to Jesus meeting with the idiot filming the whole thing. Duh, totally bad idea to let a kid with treats or whatever in her pocket to be that close to an unrestrained horse of that size and to allow her to slap around at him and try pushing him, just no brain matter at work there.


----------



## jennigrey

Taken as the micro-vignette it is, the kid is being a brat. Her body language says, "Take that!" 

That intent is what the horse is responding to. The intent, not the "damage" or discomfort the child inflicted (which, obviously, is zero). The horse has not been correctly taught that people are off-limits. It is responding in the way it would respond to another horse, if another horse sassed it like that.

Horse and kid need training.

Edited to add: The horse's reaction was, I believe, natural. Not acceptable, but natural.


----------



## Teej

I believe, just from going by what can be seen, is there's a little blame on both the girl and the horse, and a lot of blame on the girl's parents or whoever was supervising her. 

I got double barreled in the chest one time by my gentlest mare. I could put kids on her and she'd walk around in circles in the corral, put beginner adults on her and she'd obey the clumsiest of cues. Hubby saw it happen and came running out of the house. I'm laying on the ground not able to breathe gasping out "shoot the b***h", I was that mad. It was time for her to come in off the pasture and she was ignoring me so I walked up to her and flicked her ear with my finger. Her response was to spin around and kick. Anyway, he wouldn't shoot her and by the time I was in shape enough to do it myself (broken ribs) I was over the mad. She was so in the wrong for what she did but some of the blame lies with me as well. She never did another wrong thing for the rest of her life which was about 17 or 18 more years.


----------



## Cabin Fever

I watched the video. And, I would have to say that I saw a complete lack of training and the metering out of severe discipline/punishment is justified.


ETA: I'm talking about the little monster in the video.


----------



## Cabin Fever

I suppose the kids folks also made a video of her pulling the tail of the family dog while it slept and showed the dog growl at her. In which case the dog should be put down.


----------



## painterswife

Cabin Fever said:


> I suppose the kids folks also made a video of her pulling the tail of the family dog while it slept and showed the dog growl at her. In which case the dog should be put down.


You do know that pulling a dogs tail and applying pressure to a horse's side or even slapping it's side is not at all on the same level. I can see that many people don't really know how to deal with a horse properly.


----------



## Cabin Fever

I am sure the parents are making all kinds of $$$ with this youtube.


----------



## Irish Pixie

painterswife said:


> You do know that pulling a dogs tail and applying pressure to a horse's side or even slapping it's side is not at all on the same level. I can see that many people don't really know how to deal with a horse properly.


The people that are blaming this solely on the kid, rather than on all three that were involved in the fiasco, generally don't have a lot of horse experience in my opinion.


----------



## wr

Cabin Fever said:


> I watched the video. And, I would have to say that I saw a complete lack of training and the metering out of severe discipline/punishment is justified.
> 
> 
> ETA: I'm talking about the little monster in the video.


Do you feel there is a chance that herd dynamics have an effect on the individual horse's behavior?

I had a very young gelding that displayed similar attitude toward humans after his position within the herd shifted.


----------



## oneraddad

We had horses when I was a kid and I never liked them because they picked on me and wouldn't obey my commands. A Shetland pony I rode once was the worst, but I also remember this one horse walking under low limbs of trees trying to knock me off. I'm not a very compassionate person and when I watched the video I thought it was kinda funny and reminded me of my childhood.


----------



## M5farm

there are a lot of Dynamics that come into play with the horse as well as the child. The tiny snippit of video is not enough to place 100% blame on either. The horse has a attitude that could be corrected. I have fixed similar problems but they are not for the faint at heart. what most do not under stand is animals need a leader and sadly most people only want a horse that someone else broke they are too timid to show the horse leadership and the horse takes on the role as the leader. All animals are wired the same way your either a leader or a follower.


----------



## M5farm

BTW I have been on a horse since I was about three. I have broke more than I can count. we bred and raised qtr horses for the better part of my life. we foaled approx. 125 every year all registered. when the market bottomed we could still command our price due to quality and temperament. I personally handled every colt and halter broke everything . a select group were green broke and a lucky few were finished every year.


----------



## MDKatie

painterswife said:


> You do know that pulling a dogs tail and applying pressure to a horse's side or even slapping it's side is not at all on the same level. I can see that many people don't really know how to deal with a horse properly.


Applying pressure to a horse's side and/or slapping its side are one thing, but repeatedly swatting at a horse out of anger/frustration/bad attitude are not the same. I would really love to see the entire video. This little girl was clearly not "dealing with a horse properly." Her parents should not let her be around horses until she learns proper handling techniques. It's clear the situation was handled improperly by all parties involved.


----------



## Irish Pixie

oneraddad said:


> We had horses when I was a kid and I never liked them because they picked on me and wouldn't obey my commands. A Shetland pony I rode once was the worst, but I also remember this one horse walking under low limbs of trees trying to knock me off. I'm not a very compassionate person and when I watched the video I thought it was kinda funny and reminded me of my childhood.


There's a reason why Shetlands are known as ****lands.


----------



## painterswife

MDKatie said:


> Applying pressure to a horse's side and/or slapping its side are one thing, but repeatedly swatting at a horse out of anger/frustration/bad attitude are not the same. I would really love to see the entire video. This little girl was clearly not "dealing with a horse properly." Her parents should not let her be around horses until she learns proper handling techniques. It's clear the situation was handled improperly by all parties involved.


That girl did not repeatedly do anything unless you have more of the video than the rest of us do.


----------



## Irish Pixie

wr said:


> Do you feel there is a chance that herd dynamics have an effect on the individual horse's behavior?
> 
> I had a very young gelding that displayed similar attitude toward humans after his position within the herd shifted.


I wondered if it was a herd dynamic issue too. There is at least one other horse in that pasture- you can see it's shadow in the video. 

The kid should never have been in the pasture with a hoodie pocket full of treats (at least it looks like that to me) and loose horses. The adult (if it's an adult and not another kid filming) should never allowed it to happen. The horse was way out of line, and at fault, it's never acceptable to be aggressive to a human. Ever. 

Like I said before, the kid was trying to be alpha and move the horse, the horse didn't accept her as alpha and became aggressive. If it had been my horse the consequences would have have swift and memorable.


----------



## MDKatie

painterswife said:


> That girl did not repeatedly do anything unless you have more of the video than the rest of us do.


She hits/pushes him twice in the video I saw, plus another poster said he/she saw a version where she slapped him on the leg. Three times is repeatedly, IMO. :shrug:


I found this video on Youtube while I was searching for a full video of the girl/draft one. This parent needs to supervise his kid better, or he's going to get seriously injured. (sorry for double video, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong)
[YOUTUBE][ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOvcV93u6L0&NR=1[/ame][/YOUTUBE]


----------



## wr

MDKatie said:


> Applying pressure to a horse's side and/or slapping its side are one thing, but repeatedly swatting at a horse out of anger/frustration/bad attitude are not the same. I would really love to see the entire video. This little girl was clearly not "dealing with a horse properly." Her parents should not let her be around horses until she learns proper handling techniques. It's clear the situation was handled improperly by all parties involved.


I would agree but we're assuming that this child spends time with horses or has had regular contact. Since the clip is minimal, it could just as easily be that she was visiting a farm or perhaps even a theme park that has horses and has no prior interaction with them at all.


----------



## wr

Irish Pixie said:


> I wondered if it was a herd dynamic issue too. There is at least one other horse in that pasture- you can see it's shadow in the video.
> 
> The kid should never have been in the pasture with a hoodie pocket full of treats (at least it looks like that to me) and loose horses. The adult (if it's an adult and not another kid filming) should never allowed it to happen. The horse was way out of line, and at fault, it's never acceptable to be aggressive to a human. Ever.
> 
> Like I said before, the kid was trying to be alpha and move the horse, the horse didn't accept her as alpha and became aggressive. If it had been my horse the consequences would have have swift and memorable.


If those horses in the background happened to be mares and the horse was intact, the behavior could be considered a whole lot different again. 

I've had a young guy behave like this toward one of my kids at one time and the behavior was corrected quickly and fairly harshly as well as longer term at the training level but these could be folks that crossed a fence to play with pretty ponies, inexperienced horse owners or an ill conceived idea to convince a kid that they could learn to like horses. 

In either case, I would agree it was an epic fail on many levels.


----------



## painterswife

MDKatie said:


> She hits/pushes him twice in the video I saw, plus another poster said he/she saw a version where she slapped him on the leg. Three times is repeatedly, IMO. :shrug:
> 
> 
> Pushing twice is not abusing a horse or even treating it badly. We can only judge on what we see and that horse should never have responded to what we saw in that way.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Nor is pushing it or slapping it three times either.


----------



## MDKatie

painterswife said:


> MDKatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> She hits/pushes him twice in the video I saw, plus another poster said he/she saw a version where she slapped him on the leg. Three times is repeatedly, IMO. :shrug:
> 
> 
> Pushing twice is not abusing a horse or even treating it badly. We can only judge on what we see and that horse should never have responded to what we saw in that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm pretty sure we discussed this earlier in the thread. My point was kids often mistreat animals and their parents never notice, or the animals get blamed for biting/kicking/scratching/etc and the parent places all of the blame on the animal. Animals cannot tell kids to go away and leave them alone. I am not one of those people who thinks animals should tolerate kids no matter what the kids do. Ideally, animals will learn/be taught to move away, but my kids will never (have never) pester/mistreat/harass animals.
> 
> My point was, we don't know what's going on in the video, because it's only a glimpse of what is actually happening. It's wrong to 100% blame the kid, and I believe it's wrong to 100% blame the horse. Who KNOWS the history of this horse and this kid. The horse could have moved away, but he didn't. He also looks like he could be young, because for a draft he's not very big, but it's also hard to tell from that short bit of video.
> 
> 
> ETA: This smiley is appropriate in this thread. :bdh: :grin:
Click to expand...


----------



## aoconnor1

wr said:


> Do you feel there is a chance that herd dynamics have an effect on the individual horse's behavior?
> 
> I had a very young gelding that displayed similar attitude toward humans after his position within the herd shifted.


Absolutely. I have a herd of 26 that run together, herd dynamics are fascinating! I understand that all 3 parties involved in the video are to blame. The parents mostly, duh, hows about actually teaching your child how to interact correctly with horses. The kid for slapping at and pushing the horse, and the horse for correcting the kid. The last two are equal. I know others say the horse should be dead for what it did, but I totally, completely disagree. He needs to be corrected, but his reaction was quite natural. The kid was allowed to be a snot, the horse corrected it. The fact that it is a human child was of no consequence to the horse, it SHOULD have been the parents responsibility to correct the kid instantly and get her away from the horse, not the other way around.

SO, all that chatting about this one, tiny little video clip. Seriously, no one even knows anything about the event other than a 14 second clip. Those people could have been in some strangers pasture taking a video of the kid with the horse. It could have been a new horse to those people and they allowed the interaction not knowing the horse well enough. Or it may have been a thousand other scenarios. We don't know, and all that every one of us is saying is simply supposition. But blaming the horse is not fair since we truly don't know the actual circumstance.


----------



## aoconnor1

painterswife said:


> That girl did not repeatedly do anything unless you have more of the video than the rest of us do.


But that's the point, we don't know enough to say whether the child did more or the horse was totally at fault. I believe it's all a guess, no blame should be placed squarely anywhere.


----------



## painterswife

aoconnor1 said:


> But that's the point, we don't know enough to say whether the child did more or the horse was totally at fault. I believe it's all a guess, no blame should be placed squarely anywhere.


Yes, that is the point.


----------



## Lisa in WA

When I saw this video and when I posted here, the astonishment I had was for the people who lashed out at the child and called her truly awful names and claimed that she was being cruel and abusive to the horse. 

All we have to see is this small clip and in that small clip I see an overly confident, possibly bratty kid attempting to move a horse around that clearly she has no business interacting with.

But I see no cruelty or abuse going on here at all. No meanness.

Excellent and human horsemen use crops, stud chains, and spurs on horses all the time to get them to do what we want. Does this amount to cruelty too?


----------



## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> When I saw this video and when I posted here, the astonishment I had was for the people who lashed out at the child and called her truly awful names and claimed that she was being cruel and abusive to the horse.
> 
> All we have to see is this small clip and in that small clip I see an overly confident, possibly bratty kid attempting to move a horse around that clearly she has no business interacting with.
> 
> But I see no cruelty or abuse going on here at all. No meanness.
> 
> Excellent and human horsemen use crops, stud chains, and spurs on horses all the time to get them to do what we want. Does this amount to cruelty too?


I agree with all of the above. The girl was beyond her ability in dealing with that horse, and he called her on it. No name calling or smearing the kid is necessary, but neither should the horse be shot dead for having what was probably a very natural reaction to something we did not see occur before the clip starts. But that is merely supposition on my part, I am only going by the same snippet that all others are going by.


----------



## wr

aoconnor1 said:


> Absolutely. I have a herd of 26 that run together, herd dynamics are fascinating! I understand that all 3 parties involved in the video are to blame. The parents mostly, duh, hows about actually teaching your child how to interact correctly with horses. The kid for slapping at and pushing the horse, and the horse for correcting the kid. The last two are equal. I know others say the horse should be dead for what it did, but I totally, completely disagree. He needs to be corrected, but his reaction was quite natural. The kid was allowed to be a snot, the horse corrected it. The fact that it is a human child was of no consequence to the horse, it SHOULD have been the parents responsibility to correct the kid instantly and get her away from the horse, not the other way around.
> 
> SO, all that chatting about this one, tiny little video clip. Seriously, no one even knows anything about the event other than a 14 second clip. Those people could have been in some strangers pasture taking a video of the kid with the horse. It could have been a new horse to those people and they allowed the interaction not knowing the horse well enough. Or it may have been a thousand other scenarios. We don't know, and all that every one of us is saying is simply supposition. But blaming the horse is not fair since we truly don't know the actual circumstance.


I'm not inclined to blame the parents for not teaching the kid about horses either because we clearly don't know if they have any horse experience or even if they were present at the time. 

At face value, if a horse will fling a child for a slap or a sour face. there are some issues that need serious correction so I'm not inclined to declare him innocent. 

I'm sure she'd tell you otherwise but I swear my daughter went a good 4 years with a sour look on her face, slamming doors and holding herself hostage in the bathroom and was still considered a highly respected trainer of equines and exotics for the movie industry :rotfl:


----------



## Annsni

Cabin Fever said:


> I suppose the kids folks also made a video of her pulling the tail of the family dog while it slept and showed the dog growl at her. In which case the dog should be put down.


That's actually not a fair comparison. Have the dog bite the child and pull off flesh then I'd say that was more comparable. A growl with a dog would be an ear pin and maybe a nip from a horse. This was way more.


----------



## aoconnor1

wr said:


> I'm sure she'd tell you otherwise but I swear my daughter went a good 4 years with a sour look on her face, slamming doors and holding herself hostage in the bathroom and was still considered a highly respected trainer of equines and exotics for the movie industry :rotfl:


LOL! Me, too. I know I was a miserable looking young girl at times, and have the pictures to prove it! My horses didn't mind though, I wasn't taking it out on them.


----------



## Lisa in WA

aoconnor1 said:


> I agree with all of the above. The girl was beyond her ability in dealing with that horse, and he called her on it. No name calling or smearing the kid is necessary, but neither should the horse be shot dead for having what was probably a very natural reaction to something we did not see occur before the clip starts. But that is merely supposition on my part, I am only going by the same snippet that all others are going by.


I wouldn't shoot him either. But I would correct him strongly for his own sake as well as the people who will have to deal with him. Biting can be an escalating behavior if it's not nipped in the bud. Most people won't keep a horse that is a continued aggressive biter and if they do, there are potential lawsuits to consider.


----------



## Lisa in WA

romysbaskets said:


> It would be far easier to decide the horse's behavior and why he did this...if we saw what she did before the slap. Her face is not very clear but horses respond to glaring eyes and aggressive body language. On the farm, there was a horse we were told not to stare into his eyes. He was not mean, didn't hurt anyone but reacted to eye contact. This horse could have had rocks thrown at it, been hit many times before and abused prior to this video. She looks at the horse with a mean look prior to the slap and when she is pushing on the chest portion. No excuse to hurt a human being but abused animals do at times. This can be trained right out of a horse normally but the circumstances of the horse is not clear...Hope the girl was ok, this horse needs worked with! Also important here is that the girl needs worked with as well!


If glaring at a horse routinely ended up in being bitten, I would have no body parts left. I must've glared ferociously at every horse that I've ever owned for one reason or another and was never bitten or kicked or even elicited a reaction from any of them. They simply don't care.
The only time I've ever noticed any reaction to eye contact was in catching a hard to catch horse in the pasture. Not looking right at them can sometimes help catch them.


----------



## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> I wouldn't shoot him either. But I would correct him strongly for his own sake as well as the people who will have to deal with him. Biting can be an escalating behavior if it's not nipped in the bud. Most people won't keep a horse that is a continued aggressive biter and if they do, there are potential lawsuits to consider.


I have a friend of mine that just brought me her gelding last Saturday to do some extensive work with. She is a good rider/trainer and he is a very good horse, but she hasn't been able to stop him from biting. I don't know why he was allowed to escalate his issues, but one HARD slap to his nose the first time he even thought of nipping my hand as I cleaned a scratch, and he won't even look at my hand now when I am cleaning the scratch It's all in the timing and the ability to correct the behavior immediately. I think the horse in the video needed a hard slap on the mouth for his behavior...hopefully the adult or AN adult corrected him immediately.


----------



## Lisa in WA

aoconnor1 said:


> I have a friend of mine that just brought me her gelding last Saturday to do some extensive work with. She is a good rider/trainer and he is a very good horse, but she hasn't been able to stop him from biting. I don't know why he was allowed to escalate his issues, but one HARD slap to his nose the first time he even thought of nipping my hand as I cleaned a scratch, and he won't even look at my hand now when I am cleaning the scratch It's all in the timing and the ability to correct the behavior immediately. I think the horse in the video needed a hard slap on the mouth for his behavior...hopefully the adult or AN adult corrected him immediately.


 I doubt it. He wasn't restrained and it looked like he whirled to run.


----------



## MDKatie

basketti said:


> Excellent and human horsemen use crops, stud chains, and spurs on horses all the time to get them to do what we want. Does this amount to cruelty too?


Of course not, that's just silly. I haven't seen anyone say the girl was being cruel to the horse, unless I missed it. There's a difference in working with an animal and pestering an animal for the sake of being a pest.


----------



## Lisa in WA

MDKatie said:


> Of course not, that's just silly. I haven't seen anyone say the girl was being cruel to the horse, unless I missed it. There's a difference in working with an animal and pestering an animal for the sake of being a pest.


You said she was being mean to it and likened the situation to a kid pulling a dogs tail, etc and then being bitten. 

The kid swatting this horse doesn't approach the level of a kid pulling a dogs tail and being bitten. We never routinely pull dogs tails or ears because that IS being mean but we do swat, smack and push horses around and it's not cruel or mean.

Not to mention that the horse was unrestrained and could have simply moved away from her like he did after he bit her.


----------



## wr

MDKatie said:


> Of course not, that's just silly. I haven't seen anyone say the girl was being cruel to the horse, unless I missed it. There's a difference in working with an animal and pestering an animal for the sake of being a pest.


I'm not certain that a child that age would be considered working with an animal but I'm also not sure that we can be sure she's pestering for the sake of pestering.

I do agree that any human that pesters or harasses an animal can expect consequences for their actions but with livestock that can require the ability to read their non verbal messages.


----------



## painterswife

I was not fortunate to work with horses at that age but my cousins did. They were riding, training and showing at that age and had been for a few years.


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## Maura

Haypoint, I was addressing two things. Your getting kicked was one. Yes, the horse still might have kicked even with desensitizing. Maybe it was you he was after and not the kid. Where were the parents? The child could have been trampled on or run over by the wheels.

As for stallions treat foals like this, I was referring to the original post and video. Also, everything that led up to the toss and if it was a stallion. Was it a new horse? Iâm amazed that people will put their little children with a new dog or new horse, or new any animal.

btw, good of you to save the child.


----------



## MDKatie

basketti said:


> You said she was being mean to it and likened the situation to a kid pulling a dogs tail, etc and then being bitten.
> 
> The kid swatting this horse doesn't approach the level of a kid pulling a dogs tail and being bitten. We never routinely pull dogs tails or ears because that IS being mean but we do swat, smack and push horses around and it's not cruel or mean.
> 
> Not to mention that the horse was unrestrained and could have simply moved away from her like he did after he bit her.


Being mean and being cruel are two different things, IMO. If the girl is being unclear in what she wants or expects of the horse, she needs to be taught the proper way of interacting. There's nothing wrong with disciplining a horse if you do it in a way that's constructive and actually *doing* something rather than confusing and frustrating the horse. 

I am really not sure anything I say at this point will make you happy, nor do I care about making you happy or care if you agree with me. I've already said several of the same things you have, but I'm not sure you've read them because you keep repeating them too. 

We'll just agree to disagree, again.


----------



## Jennifer L.

I come at this from the cow direction, too. Had a horse when I was a kid but that's it. Anyway, the girl looks like she was swiping flies off the horse. Horse was probably irritated by the flies and the girl both, and didn't want to be bothered by either. As others said, who knows what went on before.

The horse I had 40 years ago bit me in the chest when I walked up to her from behind in the pasture and touched her side/back. Not sure which now. Her head whipped around like a snake and nailed me. I was talking to her, she knew it was me. She had kind of mean personality, but an adult could handle her ok. As we both aged, I had a lot of fun with her. BUT, if she had been a cow, I never would have tolerated that kind of personality in the milking parlor. Probably the reason I haven't had a horse since, though.


----------



## oneraddad

MDKatie said:


> Being mean and being cruel are two different things, IMO.


What are the differences ?


----------



## Alder

They way the girl was poking at the horse would be annoying for any horse, it's just that a lot of them would have taken it or moved off.

I wouldn't have blamed either party overmuch - the kid obviously didn't know how to act around horses, and the horse was doing what horses tend to do. Most horses will eventually dispense with an annoyance, and that's what happened. I'd have NEVER let a kid like that up close around a big horse unless she was a pro ( and they're out there) and for sure, would not let kids mess around with that particular horse again.

Lesson learned for kid and horse owner. I don't see that the horse was that much at fault. It's their nature, and you take the good with the bad sometimes.


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## Annsni

Alder said:


> They way the girl was poking at the horse would be annoying for any horse, it's just that a lot of them would have taken it or moved off.
> 
> I wouldn't have blamed either party overmuch - the kid obviously didn't know how to act around horses, and the horse was doing what horses tend to do. Most horses will eventually dispense with an annoyance, and that's what happened. I'd have NEVER let a kid like that up close around a big horse unless she was a pro ( and they're out there) and for sure, would not let kids mess around with that particular horse again.
> 
> Lesson learned for kid and horse owner. I don't see that the horse was that much at fault. It's their nature, and you take the good with the bad sometimes.


I don't think biting and tossing a human being is typical horse behavior. I've only seen one horse who did that and that horse was just rogue.


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## wr

oneraddad said:


> What are the differences ?


Mean = 14 year old female who's not fond of living with 2 brothers. 

Cruel = holding the only bathroom in the house hostage for hours on end. 

Solution = 1 outdoor facility and remove lock to provide ready access to only bathing facility in the house.


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## Alder

Annsni said:


> I don't think biting and tossing a human being is typical horse behavior. I've only seen one horse who did that and that horse was just rogue.


Maybe, but they are all capable of it, and something to guard against, especially with kids or inexperienced adults.

Events like in the video are why a lot of insurance companies consider horses "attractive nuisances" and either won't cover you, or charge an arm and a leg. People will walk up to a horse in a pasture (even trespass), give all the wrong signals or make stupid advances to a horse, get hurt, and guess who gets sued. It must happen fairly often, because the insurance companies live and die by statistics.


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## Lisa in WA

We have always had liability coverage as far as our horses via our homeowners liability umbrella policy. Now if I had a known biter or kicker and had it within easy access to people who might mess with it, that would certainly imply negligence on my part and even a signed release wouldn't protect me from a lawsuit if someone was hurt that way.


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## Irish Pixie

basketti said:


> We have always had liability coverage as far as our horses via our homeowners liability umbrella policy. Now if I had a known biter or kicker and had it within easy access to people who might mess with it, that would certainly imply negligence on my part and even a signed release wouldn't protect me from a lawsuit if someone was hurt that way.


We always have too, currently it's a million plus...


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## romysbaskets

basketti said:


> If glaring at a horse routinely ended up in being bitten, I would have no body parts left. I must've glared ferociously at every horse that I've ever owned for one reason or another and was never bitten or kicked or even elicited a reaction from any of them. They simply don't care.
> The only time I've ever noticed any reaction to eye contact was in catching a hard to catch horse in the pasture. Not looking right at them can sometimes help catch them.


There was a horse that did at my Grandparents farm, a full blooded Arabian male that if you glared at him he bit. We were told this. In my response I was referring to a horse "I" knew growing up, not horses that you have owned. Horses do react to eye contact, most enjoy being looked at with a kind expression. I found this to be true in my case. It was an example that I know from childhood. My Grandparents also owned a retired racehorse..he had all kinds of tricks. I figure if I am going to ride or interact with a horse, I want to know things that might trigger bad behavior or their "tricks" as the ones I rode had some. For Afghan, the full blooded Arabian, you didn't glare at "HIM!"  I also said both horse and girl need worked with. Horses are unique to a degree, each one to my own experience. I had a POA as a teen ager and she used to lay her head on my shoulder and push down til I would pet her... Come to think of it, I have never glared at a horse...? I sure have been around my share too.  I taught my POA many tricks and voice commands. I never whipped or pushed her around or slapped her either. We were taught to be firm but kind with horses and ponies as with all other animals on the farm. Incidentally, we would call a horse and they came as well as the ponies...having a treat for them didn't hurt either.


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## Irish Pixie

Romysbaskets, how do you establish dominance if you don't use prolonged eye contact? I'm absolutely the alpha mare in my herd, actually when I handle any horse. If I'm not I run the risk of being treated like the girl in the video.


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## Lisa in WA

Irish Pixie said:


> Romysbaskets, how do you establish dominance if you don't use prolonged eye contact? I'm absolutely the alpha mare in my herd, actually when I handle any horse. If I'm not I run the risk of being treated like the girl in the video.


I think some people just equate being around horses or ponies as children or reading The Black Stallion books with having horse knowledge.


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## romysbaskets

Irish Pixie said:


> Romysbaskets, how do you establish dominance if you don't use prolonged eye contact? I'm absolutely the alpha mare in my herd, actually when I handle any horse. If I'm not I run the risk of being treated like the girl in the video.


In my post above "horses do react to eye contact" which means yes, you look at them. LOL The one horse could be looked at but not a glare. A firm voice with a nice expression never caused me problems, I don't avoid their eyes. Only issue I had was my cousins idea of a joke. The one horse that threw me over it's head. I did yell at it to stop kicking me, that worked. After I got up I had a talk with the horse and got back on. I have a knack with animals, they have always responded with a light touch.


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## romysbaskets

basketti said:


> I think some people just equate being around horses or ponies as children or reading The Black Stallion books with having horse knowledge.


I grew up riding on my Grandparents 360 acre spread from the age of 5. This ranged from Shetland ponies, POA, Quarter horse to the Arabian retired race horse. I was there every summer growing up and lived there a few years. I would nicely suggest Basketti that folks on here have varied experience. I am no expert but I have had plenty of experience with horses. I didn't compete but attended equestrian events, rodeos etc. I can't add up my exposure to horses but it has been a lot. I never miss a chance to see them even now. The last one I was up close to was the Draft Horse in Dec, what a beauty. Everyone will have a different prospective on the video. 

Does your reply reflect a person in particular or just myself? As it is, there are folks on here that just might be insulted by what you wrote. You seriously read "The Black Stallion" lol?


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## Irish Pixie

romysbaskets said:


> A firm voice with a nice expression never caused me problems. Only issue I had was my cousins idea of a joke. The one horse that threw me over it's head. I did yell at it to stop kicking me, that worked. Once I got to my feet again, I spoke firmly and yes I do make eye contact with every horse I pet or ride. I just don't glare at them.  I have a knack with animals, they have always responded with a light touch.


I hope horses continue to respond to your nice expression and soft touch.


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## romysbaskets

Irish Pixie said:


> I hope horses continue to respond to your nice expression and soft touch.


At 52, I guess it has worked for me so far, I have a knack with animals.  My dogs have always responded the same way. My opinion of the video is very simple, horse and child need worked with to show proper respect. However, children need strict supervision with horses of that size. Parents have a big responsibility to protect their children around horses. I don't mind others having a different opinion.

This is about a video of a horse and the tossing of the girl, right? Let's stay on track shall we?


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## Irish Pixie

romysbaskets said:


> At 52, I guess it has worked for me so far, I have a knack with animals.  My dogs have always responded the same way. My opinion of the video is very simple, horse and child need worked with to show proper respect. However, children need strict supervision with horses of that size. Parents have a big responsibility to protect their children around horses. I don't mind others having a different opinion.


Horses aren't dogs, don't react like dogs, and while there is some similarity in training, it's quite limited. If someone treats a horse like a dog it's an accident waiting to happen. That's not my opinion, it's fact. 

The horse in the video has no respect for the kid. That is simply not normal horse behavior, and that horse needs a "come to jesus meeting" until it understands that is not acceptable behavior. The kid was stupid, the parent (if that is who was recording) was stupid, but the horse was just wrong. 

The horse's size has nothing to do with the kid's safety, a small horse can kill just as quick as a big one. Actually, often easier because they're quicker and don't telegraph movement as much.

ETA: You brought up training, not me.


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## romysbaskets

Irish Pixie said:


> Horses aren't dogs, don't react like dogs, and while there is some similarity in training, it's quite limited. If someone treats a horse like a dog it's an accident waiting to happen. That's not my opinion, it's fact.
> 
> The horse in the video has no respect for the kid. That is simply not normal horse behavior, and that horse needs a "come to jesus meeting" until it understands that is not acceptable behavior. The kid was stupid, the parent (if that is who was recording) was stupid, but the horse was just wrong.
> 
> The horse's size has nothing to do with the kid's safety, a small horse can kill just as quick as a big one. Actually, often easier because they're quicker and don't telegraph movement as much.
> 
> ETA: You brought up training, not me.


I never said horses were like dogs, you can't rid em can you? LOL I meant they both come with the requirement of training. As to the horse, child and parents...we both agree! I simply don't blame just the horse as I said before. The child and parents share the responsibility of what happened. The girl seems to not know any better which was inexperience at the very least and was being annoying to the horse. Horses are very dangerous if not trained properly and people don't take the proper precautions. Accidents such as what occurred with Christopher Reeves happen in one fall off a horse. Any horse or pony can kill a person with a swift kick to the head, yes. In this post we are simply talking about the big draft horse in the video.


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## wr

Because the video is so brief, it's been interesting to see everyone's interpretation of it. 

As far as training methods, I'm more of a Ray Hunt follower and do believe that negative behavior nets a quick negative response but I've seen some other trainers achieve extremely good results with more passive methods. 

I would like to address Romy's comment about eye contact and my grandfather, who had a very large horse ranch, told me handle myself the same around the stallions. It was thought that they may perceive it as an implied threat. 

While I learned differently, it was enough to convince me that body language does matter. If I go out to catch the old ranch horse and my body is squared up and I look like business, we're going to play tag but if I approach with a softer body language, there's a good chance we're going to work in the next 15 minutes.


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## Annsni

Irish Pixie said:


> That is simply not normal horse behavior


This I totally agree with. Having worked with hundreds of horses, I've seen only 2 who would do something like this and both of them were just evil horses. They did learn not to even try to bring a mouth near me because it would be one of the most unpleasant experiences of their life. I don't go along with biting and for sure as heck grabbing and throwing is a death wish in my book.


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## Irish Pixie

wr said:


> Because the video is so brief, it's been interesting to see everyone's interpretation of it.
> 
> As far as training methods, I'm more of a Ray Hunt follower and do believe that negative behavior nets a quick negative response but I've seen some other trainers achieve extremely good results with more passive methods.
> 
> I would like to address Romy's comment about eye contact and my grandfather, who had a very large horse ranch, told me handle myself the same around the stallions. It was thought that they may perceive it as an implied threat.
> 
> While I learned differently, it was enough to convince me that body language does matter. If I go out to catch the old ranch horse and my body is squared up and I look like business, we're going to play tag but if I approach with a softer body language, there's a good chance we're going to work in the next 15 minutes.



Was the "male" Arabian race horse a stallion? Most horse people would have said either stallion or gelding, not male. It was never stated, and would garner a slightly different response.

I do agree on a more subtle technique on catching some of them...


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## Irish Pixie

Annsni said:


> This I totally agree with. Having worked with hundreds of horses, I've seen only 2 who would do something like this and both of them were just evil horses. They did learn not to even try to bring a mouth near me because it would be one of the most unpleasant experiences of their life. I don't go along with biting and for sure as heck grabbing and throwing is a death wish in my book.


Absolutely. The more horse experience you have the easier it is to recognize as well.


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## Lisa in WA

Irish Pixie said:


> Was the "male" Arabian race horse a stallion? Most horse people would have said either stallion or gelding, not male. It was never stated, and would garner a slightly different response.
> 
> I do agree on a more subtle technique on catching some of them...


Most people who know anything about horses...


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## romysbaskets

Irish Pixie said:


> Was the "male" Arabian race horse a stallion? Most horse people would have said either stallion or gelding, not male. It was never stated, and would garner a slightly different response.
> 
> I do agree on a more subtle technique on catching some of them...


I am not running a ranch with horses on it so I am not currently riding. Afghan was the biter and he was a Stallion they later gelded and his behavior remained the same. So it didn't matter either way for him. He was not the retired race horse though, that one was gelded. This is not to say it wouldn't matter for other horses to improve behavior just to be clear. No one successfully rode Afghan...he bucked them right off. I never tried to ride him, no way! He did let me pet him



basketti said:


> Most people who know anything about horses.


Your post was designed for opinions to be expressed wasn't it? There is no reason to insult people or be snide. Afghan was a Stallion at the time then Gelded and his behavior remained the same. Because he had a mean streak and was not being ridden, my grandparents sold him off. He was worked with and found to be a waste of their time they said. He was beautiful though...


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## Alder

Annsni said:


> This I totally agree with. Having worked with hundreds of horses, I've seen only 2 who would do something like this and both of them were just evil horses. They did learn not to even try to bring a mouth near me because it would be one of the most unpleasant experiences of their life. I don't go along with biting and for sure as heck grabbing and throwing is a death wish in my book.


But that was you - with your experience, and your "presence" of confidence and command around horses, that comes with experience. Usually if an experienced handler is even close around, a horse won't pull that kind of thing on a newb. 

This kid didn't have it, obviously it seemed to the horse that no-one was in charge, and the horse stepped in and made a statement. All horses will do it - we've all seen horses take advantage of inexperienced riders, drivers or handlers. It IS their herd/pecking order nature, and given what they perceive as a chance, I wouldn't trust any horse not to try it. I'm guessing that we've all "seen it coming", growled a bit at a horse and he straightened right up with nobody else the wiser...hundreds of times.

Unfortunate situation in the video, but there was a vacuum that the horse stepped into caused by the kid's annoying behavior and the horse's perceived lack of effective supervision by an experienced person.


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## Irish Pixie

romysbaskets said:


> I am not running a ranch with horses on it. Afghan was a Stallion they gelded and his behavior remained the same. So it didn't matter either way for him. This is not to say it wouldn't matter for other horses just to be clear.


In my experience that means either a rogue horse or really bad training. 

Horses are herd animals, and need a leader (alpha). The video shows clearly what happens when the horse is allowed to consider itself alpha- people get hurt. 

That's just my 40+ years of experience, YMMV.


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## Irish Pixie

Alder said:


> But that was you - with your experience, and your "presence" of confidence and command around horses, that comes with experience. Usually if an experienced handler is even close around, a horse won't pull that kind of thing on a newb.
> 
> This kid didn't have it, obviously it seemed to the horse that no-one was in charge, and the horse stepped in and made a statement. All horses will do it - we've all seen horses take advantage of inexperienced riders, drivers or handlers. It IS their herd/pecking order nature, and given what they perceive as a chance, I wouldn't trust any horse not to try it. And I'm guessing that we've all seen it coming, growled a bit at the horse and he straightened right up with nobody else the wiser.
> 
> Unfortunate situation in the video, but there was a vacuum that the horse stepped into caused by the kid's annoying behavior and the horse's perceived lack of effective supervision by an experienced person.


I agree to an extent, but you rarely see that level of aggression. Laying ears back, a nip, maybe but out and out aggression isn't at all common.


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## haypoint

WR hit on a key point about the video. We really don't have enough from that clip to make any sort of determination about what happened. 

Humanity is facing something very new. Keyboard Warriors are willing and ready to form an opinion, often based on a glimpse, then spend days defending their opinion.

We see video clips, often a few seconds long and without sound, and we act like we know what happened.

Makes no difference if it is 5 seconds of a horse tossing a child to the ground or 5 seconds of a Cop shooting a criminal, without the hour and a half that preceded the shooting. 

Sometimes "I don't know." is a reasonable answer.


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## romysbaskets

Irish Pixie said:


> In my experience that means either a rogue horse or really bad training.
> 
> Horses are herd animals, and need a leader (alpha). The video shows clearly what happens when the horse is allowed to consider itself alpha- people get hurt.
> 
> That's just my 40+ years of experience, YMMV.


I agree with you on the training he needed. Grandpa was taken in by his beauty but didn't have the time he required. He was with a dozen other horses and some ponies, cattle, sheep, pigs etc...he was exposed to the other farm animals and he did not respond to the Alpha, which was my grandfather. He was in his 60's when I was a teen and I think he didn't want to devote the time required to just the one horse when he was running such a large ranch. His main focus at that time were his crops and cattle. Afghan was my cousin's horse and she did competition riding. They had planned to stud him out first with some of the mares and then geld him anyhow. He did produce a beautiful foal.


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## Alder

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree to an extent, but you rarely see that level of aggression. Laying ears back, a nip, maybe but out and out aggression isn't at all common.


Well, let's just say that I give them ALL more credit for being capable of it then you do. At a certain level, a horse is a horse is a horse.


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## Irish Pixie

Alder said:


> Well, let's just say that I give them ALL more credit for being capable of it then you do. At a certain level, a horse is a horse is a horse.


I never said I didn't think they were all capable... I just said it's not common to have them act that aggressively.


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## wr

A young friend's foal kicked her pretty hard the other day and within conversation, my daughter reminded me of one of my reactive moment. 

She'd taken on a dozen Mimi stallions and the owner wanted photos. One of the rabid little monsters bit my arm several times with lightning quick accuracy and without even thinking I elbowed him in the forehead with a fair bit of force - right after a stern lecture on patience. 

The little monster never bit again but in hindsight, I probably could have handled it different.


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## Maura

With a foal, roaring and bringing your hands up like a bear is a pretty good scare.


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## Irish Pixie

wr said:


> A young friend's foal kicked her pretty hard the other day and within conversation, my daughter reminded me of one of my reactive moment.
> 
> She'd taken on a dozen Mimi stallions and the owner wanted photos. One of the rabid little monsters bit my arm several times with lightning quick accuracy and without even thinking I elbowed him in the forehead with a fair bit of force - right after a stern lecture on patience.
> 
> The little monster never bit again but in hindsight, I probably could have handled it different.


A flying elbow works pretty well, except when you hit the "not funny" nerve, yours not the horse.


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## molonlabe

Danger in my opinion


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## oregon woodsmok

I don't think the horse's behavior was unnatural or even particularly aggressive. I suspect he is a stallion and you see that sort of behavior with the young stallions in a wild situation. You even see that behavior between well raised colts running in a pasture together. The girl got tossed because a horse's behavior is not geared to the size and strength of a human-- which is exactly why all of them have the potential to hurt you, whether they intend to or not.

The horse was definitely lacking in manners and no one has put any proper training into him, or he wouldn't have done it. No one has ever explained to him that he is below humans in the social order.

If he had been feeling aggressive and wasn't just insisting on higher social standing, he would have followed that toss up with a lunge and a strike and tap danced on the kid until there was nothing left but jelly. He was putting her in her place, not intending to put her out of the picture.


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## Bret

I saw Gentle Giants, about draft horses on RFD TV, that took place in Laporte, IN. I only watched a few minutes, but I saw a team of horses in front of a walking young person holding reins driving through cones.


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## AKacres

If you watch the shadow of the horse's head, as well as the way it's holding its head sort of high and back as the girl approaches, you can see the ears are pinned back and it's not happy about something. That alone should have told her to give it space if she knew anything about horses. She appears to be looking at its feet or lower legs with a negative expression and whoever is filming is close to its hindquarters. My guess would be that the horse was standing on something that she wanted it to step off of, and I would further guess that the camera person had intentionally set up the situation knowing what would happen. After her first physical contact with the horse, the shadow of its head clearly shows it's ticked. The push on the chest was the final straw. Looks to me like the horse had an attitude and the person with the camera was an idiot and the girl was being a normal kid and fell victim to her own youthful foolishness and the two other factors involved.


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