# Hand gun calibers



## Philbee (Jul 5, 2004)

I am wondering how large of an animal can be killed with a .45 cal. semi-auto pistol. Would a person be able to kill a couger with this caliber? How effective would a .40 S&W caliber semi-auto be on a couger? I have read and have been told that a .357 Magnum is a good caliber for a couger but other than a .357 Sig that caliber seems to come only in a revolver. I am not interested in a .44 Mag and beyound. You good old boys seem to have lots of outdoor experiences and I would be very interested with what you would have to say about this subject.


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

With the right bullets either of those cartridges would be effective against cougars at close range. They were designed to be man-stoppers at about 20 yards or less. I wouldn't choose to hunt cougars with a handgun of this type, but I suspect that you were not asking about their suitability for hunting.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

the standard .357 magnum has been available in several semi automatics such as coonan arms and desert eagle... for DEFENSE any of the cartridges ya mention will work on cougar with the right bullets and loads.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Philbee said:


> I am wondering how large of an animal can be killed with a .45 cal. semi-auto pistol. Would a person be able to kill a couger with this caliber? How effective would a .40 S&W caliber semi-auto be on a couger? I have read and have been told that a .357 Magnum is a good caliber for a couger but other than a .357 Sig that caliber seems to come only in a revolver. I am not interested in a .44 Mag and beyound. You good old boys seem to have lots of outdoor experiences and I would be very interested with what you would have to say about this subject.


Marlin makes a lever action rifle (mod. 1894 I think) that is available in .357MAG.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

Philbee said:


> I am wondering how large of an animal can be killed with a .45 cal. semi-auto pistol. Would a person be able to kill a couger with this caliber?


Of course "a person (would) be able to kill a couger with this caliber". You can kill a cougar with a .22 short. 

I suspect you're confusing 'killing' with 'stopping'.

If what you really want is to be able to put him down _now_, no hand gun is really gonna be reliable, 'cause this is a case where accuracy counts, _big_ time. 

If you're gonna rely on a side arm for personal protection, make sure you can hit what you're shootin' at.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Steve L. said:


> If what you really want is to be able to put him down _now_, no hand gun is really gonna be reliable, 'cause this is a case where accuracy counts, _big_ time.


That is so not true!!! Most handguns in this catagory are fully capable of the needed accuracy. Even a combat accurate pistol are capable of defensive shots on the cat within the defensive range ... Now the ability of the shooter may or may not be capable - thats a whole nuther story


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

If this thread is about defense against an attack by a cougar in the wilderness, we could discuss for several weeks about what gun would be best for self defense. Any gun would be better than no gun at all, & a stick would be better than bare hands. I can't imagine why a cougar would attack an adult, but of course, it has ocassionally happened. That's why there are so few cougars.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I was climbing a mountain this spring, almost vertical, trying to get to a shallower slope. I was just getting to the edge and a mulie doe came running across the slope with a lion behind her. She saw me and turned towards me and passed about 2 feet from me. The lion followed until he saw me and he spun around when he was 4 feet away and showered me with gravel and dirt as he slid and burned rubber leaving. His eyes were as wide as mine. 

This summer I was in thick brush and a lion ran a few feet from me because a pack string down the hill scared him. Both cats were so fast, I didn't have time to raise a gun, although I had one each time. If you are worried about defense, I think a handgun is the way to go because he will be on you before you know it. Then you hope he doesn't break your neck with his first bite, and you start shooting from can't miss range. They have little lungs and anything will kill them. And they don't attack much, so there really isn't much worry. 

I often carry an old Series 70 Gold Cup in 45 ACP, and sometimes a 40 Glock. I think the Colt is quicker to get into action. I know it's more accurate.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

tallpaul said:


> That is so not true!!! Most handguns in this catagory are fully capable of the needed accuracy. Even a combat accurate pistol are capable of defensive shots on the cat within the defensive range ...


Youâre right, Paul, I wasnât very clear, was I? I agree, almost all high quality, âseriousâ caliber handguns have better intrinsic accuracy than many (most?) people can achieve. I guess I was just sorta thinkin' that everybody 'knew' that.



> Now the ability of the shooter may or may not be capable - thats a whole nuther story


Eggzackery. Thatâs kinda what I was getting at. Most people can handle a long gun a lot better when under stress than they can a handgun. Iâm pretty good with a handgun, and _Iâd_ feel better carrying a shotgun into harmâs way than I would carrying just a pistol (Iâd have the pistol, too, of course :angel: ).



bgak47 said:


> If this thread is about defense against an attack by a cougar in the wilderness, we could discuss for several weeks about what gun would be best for self defense. Any gun would be better than no gun at all, & a stick would be better than bare hands. I can't imagine why a cougar would attack an adult, but of course, it has ocassionally happened. That's why there are so few cougars.


Yep. The best gun to use is the one you have with you. 



Ed Norman said:


> If you are worried about defense, I think a handgun is the way to goâ¦


I agree with that, too. Youâre a lot better armed with the gun on youâre belt than you are with the one leaning against the fence post. 



> I often carry an old Series 70 Gold Cup in 45 ACP, and sometimes a 40 Glock. I think the Colt is quicker to get into action. I know it's more accurate.


Iâve never shot either one, but Iâve heard that too.

Another point that I kind of skirted around is the fact that the '_44 magnum is the most powerful handgun in the world, and can blow your head clean off_' (yea, yea, I know, there are harder hitting handgun cartridges out there, but you should be able to get my point) kinda sidesteps the fact that a factory 44 mag delivers about the same amount of energy that a .410 shotgun does. 

Essentially, handguns top out energy-wise about where long guns start, and stopping power is pretty much all about delivering that energy to a disabling part of your target's body. It's not about 'killing' ('though killing your opponent does kinda have the desired effect  ).

Handguns are great defensive tools when you don't have a _real_ gun. :stirpot:


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## tamarackreg (Mar 13, 2006)

Any the calibers you mention would be good for predator defence. I would recomend most any caliber that starts with a 4.
As an experienced handgun hunter I would advise you to stay away from hollow point bullets and use a semi wadcutter type. Most autos will feed them, if they don't they can easily be made to do so by yourself or a gunsmith. Second choice bullets would be a solid flat point configuration.
More important than particular caliber or load would be your ability to use your gun effectively.


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## Philbee (Jul 5, 2004)

You gentlemen really made my day with the information that you have shared. Thank you very much! I hope that you all have a happy and healthy New Year. 

Thank you again, ------------ Philbee


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

And I hope that, once again this year, you aren't attacked by mountain lions.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Philbee said:


> I am wondering how large of an animal can be killed with a .45 cal. semi-auto pistol. Would a person be able to kill a couger with this caliber? How effective would a .40 S&W caliber semi-auto be on a couger? I have read and have been told that a .357 Magnum is a good caliber for a couger but other than a .357 Sig that caliber seems to come only in a revolver. I am not interested in a .44 Mag and beyound. You good old boys seem to have lots of outdoor experiences and I would be very interested with what you would have to say about this subject.


You have to have the weapon with you, for it to kill anything.

Therefore, I think the primary concern is to determine how much iron you're comfortable packing. Most of the time, I think anything bigger/heavier than 1911's or K frame S&W's, gets left in the truck.

I also think that multiple hits with a handgun are preferable. I'd rather hit one target with three good shots, than hope for one good stopper.

Over the years, most of the guys who get rolled into the ER DOA are multiple gunshot wounds.

So...we need to limit ourselves in size, and then we need to have a caliber we are capable of shooting fairly well, eevn if we don't practice a lot. And we might even consider clip capacity, since we are talking autos, primarily.

.40 or .45, and I would look very hard at a Glock .45, or a Sig .40.

Remember, just my opinion, YMMV.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

There was a recent artical about this being the 2nd or third time in 100 years that the us army is looking for a replacment side arm i belive the quote goes somthing like this 

a young private asks his gunnery sargent what the his prefered caliber of combat handgun is 44 45 40 9mm 357 the sargents reply is it doesn't matter as long as it starts with a 4

45 acp would be a good choice as would a 40+p would work you are definitly going to want a good expanding bullet and i wouldn't go looking for the fight with just a side arm .357 with a hot round would be ok also 
personaly i carry a 44mag super blackhawk
my father carries the double action .357 by ruger i think a kgp100
i like that a lot and if i were going to go smaller at some point i think that would be my choice of the .357s that or smith makes a 8 shot 357 but i thik it comes from thier custom shop

i like my auto's but to me revolver just sais dependability, has a bit to do with somthing a friend in the navy told me , just give me a good tranmsfer bar safety on my revolver somthing all the rugers have.

taurus is making a very popular new double action revolver in .45lc and .410 
it will take 45 acp with the half moon clips 45 long colt and 410 shotgun shells including slugs and buck shot it is a 5 shot 

a US company has been making the thunder 5 for some time it chambers 45lc 410 and they have a cilinder for 45-70 now there is some nock down power 

but a good long arm ia definitly recomended if yout going looking for cats/trouble 
like a quality shotgun with mag extention

as for autos if you are familiar with them 1911's are great guns 
in 40 s&w smith makes the sigma a very easy to operate gun 
as for ease of operation taurus pt24/7 in 40s&w or 45 acp is a good choice 
or one of springfields new xd pisols in 45 or 40 
ruger p sireies pistols are also good but have externel safties as do may of the taurus pistols in the pt100 class and the pt1911
all are quality hardware but some are more point and shoot than others 



think about how you are going to carry it and how fast you can get it out and up 
any mechanical safties 

the rugers and the tauruses are more reasonably priced than some of the other makes


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> There was a recent artical about this being the 2nd or third time in 100 years that the us army is looking for a replacment side arm i belive the quote goes somthing like this
> 
> a young private asks his gunnery sargent what the his prefered caliber of combat handgun is 44 45 40 9mm 357 the sargents reply is it doesn't matter as long as it starts with a 4
> 
> ...


 GREENCOUNTYPETE... How does a revolver shoot both a .45 LC & a .410 shotshell? The cartridges are vastly different in length. A breech-loading single shot pistol or shotgun may be able to fire a .45 LC cartridge if it is chambered for the .410 shot-shell, but certainly not the other way around. I know of NO revolvers that fire the .410 shot-shell & the .45 LC & can't see how it would be possible with the same cylinder? I am aware that there are revolvers available in .45/70. I can't imagine who'd want one. Maybe I'm just not up to date on the new developments in revolvers, but I can't see how a revolver could fire both the .45LC cartridge & the .410 shot-shell, even from different cylinders?


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

bgak47 said:


> GREENCOUNTYPETE... How does a revolver shoot both a .45 LC & a .410 shotshell? ...


http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2006/05/taurus_44_ten_r.html



> Maybe I'm just not up to date on the new developments in revolvers...


Yep.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

bgak47 said:


> GREENCOUNTYPETE... How does a revolver shoot both a .45 LC & a .410 shotshell? The cartridges are vastly different in length. A breech-loading single shot pistol or shotgun may be able to fire a .45 LC cartridge if it is chambered for the .410 shot-shell, but certainly not the other way around. I know of NO revolvers that fire the .410 shot-shell & the .45 LC & can't see how it would be possible with the same cylinder? I am aware that there are revolvers available in .45/70. I can't imagine who'd want one. Maybe I'm just not up to date on the new developments in revolvers, but I can't see how a revolver could fire both the .45LC cartridge & the .410 shot-shell, even from different cylinders?


the same way deringers , and .410 shotguns , and the thunder five have been doing it for years
unlike autos where there is head spacing to worry about revolver cylinders are merly smoth tubes if the shell is shorter it just travels further before entering the barrel
a 45 long colt is a rimmed cartriage that like most other american pistol shells is not necked it would realy be like the differance between putiing a 22 short in your 22lr cylinder 45lc drops perfectly into a 410 making it a nice short range smooth bore (soem are rifled)rifle i know family memers that were doing this 30+ years ago

they also make what they call half moon clips that hold 45acp so you can pop 3 at a time into your 45lc revolver 

as for the 45-70 revolver think back packing and it is the only thing between you and the bear comming after you trust me with that kind of adrenalin you won't even feel the recoil

here are some examples 
http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/ShotgunsAndRifles/survivor.aspx
http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=41
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45LC-410
http://www.amderringer.com/m4.html


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## DrippingSprings (Sep 22, 2004)

I would say Id still carry my Mag Research revolver in 45-70. yes that 45-70. 

Im a big bore man. I dotn go for the weak 9s etc. ive seen too many situations where the often hyped 9s did lil more than ---- someone off. 

With my 45-70 454casull 44mag and 500sw or 500 linebaugh you might have more rounds in the lil nine but a hit anywhere with mine is gonna remove a significant portion of your get up and go and maybe a limb too.

My uncle is a us marshall and he feels the same. 

who ares about number of rounds. i want knock down power. learn to hit your target and you wont need 15 rounds of nine to get the job done. besides jump behind a car door etc and ill just shoot you through it...


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks guys. I stand corrected. I guess I need to start reading the gun magazines again. I too am a fan of big bore handguns & have been shooting the .44s &.45s for about 50yrs now. I have a CCW permit & regularly carry a 1911A1 & I don't care for the 9mm. I think their popularity has come from the fact that they were among the first double-action semi-autos & that they had high capacity magazines. Hollywood helped the trend along. As far as handgun cartridges against predators... I don't think that any of the .44s or 45s would have much trouble stopping a cougar or a wolf...If you could draw,shoot, & hit them fast enough. I wouldn't care to try any handgun against a charging Grizz though.


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## outgunu (Sep 14, 2006)

Can't go wrong with a 10mm Glock. I use mine for hogs here in Florida.


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