# Research, carbs, keto, fasting



## Alice In TX/MO

I have no one to talk to about the research I have been doing, so I will post here. 

I am reading about Keto and fasting, diabetes and carbs, and on and on. 

Mom had Type II diabetes, and the friend I am living with while I build a new house is diabetic also. 

I have put on 25 pounds due to a variety of reasons. Stress eating, a couple of beers each evening, reduced activity, etc. 

The new info is that carbs are killing us. My friend doesn’t want to listen. 

I am dabbling with Keto and intermittent fasting.


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## Oregon1986

Keto works wonders,it really does. Lost little over 30 lbs in just 3 months


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## roadless

I am doing Whole 30.
No processed foods, sugar, dairy, legumes for 30 days.
I'm about 12 days in and I can't believe how much energy I have.
My clothes are fitting better too.
After the 30 days I will slowly add the foods I avoided to see how my body responds.


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## WolfeMomma

I did Keto for a couple months, I was struggling with a stall and keto helped me break it. But it sadly is just not sustainable for me. I gradually came off of it and gained almost everything I lost back  I wish i could have kept it up longer, because it does work.


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## Terri

I wonder if your friend would be more open to reducing carbs if they were not cut out entirely? There are a lot of shades of grey between the Standard American Diet and keto.

I am also a diabetic, and it did my blood sugar a great deal of good to simply reduce the carbs at one sitting instead of cutting them out entirely. REDUCING carbs can mean eating more steak but only one potato, etc.

I tried keto but I was hungry all of the time. However, eating more meat and far fewer carbs worked out well.


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## Cabin Fever

Are you looking for a "diet" or a change in lifestyle? What many have experienced with diets is that they lose weight and maybe get off some meds while on the diet. WHen they've reached their weight goal, they eventually go back to their old selves and gain back the weight and the meds. Then, they start over with another diet. The yo-yo dieting thing kills your pancreas and is worse then never starting to diet at all.

What we've done is changed our consumption lifestyle to something we can sustainably do for the rest of our lives. Many of the fad diets that you read about are not sustainable, not meant to be followed for a lifetime. Some call what we're doing "Whole-Food, Plant-Based." We have become "Nutritarians." (I hate labels) We eat plants, whole grains, seeds, and nuts.

We believe in the sage advice of Hippocrates, "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." Plants have 100s of phytonutrients that science does not even know about yet. Science seems to focus on the macro and micronutrients and vitamins of foods, but there are so many more phytonutrients that plants have that can cure disease and reverse the damage that the American (Western) diet has done to our bodies.

My wife started before I did. She lost 30 pounds right away. Her doctor was shocked at the her blood test results. The doctor took my wife off of her BP meds and 80% of her diabetes meds. Her lipid test results were greatly improved and she'll likely come off of those at her next visit. Her doctor asked my wife, what have you been doing? When she explained, her doctor said that she should pay my wife for the appointment.

For me, my weight has come down and my at-home BP tests have improved. I have not had an appointment with the doctor since I started. But, I feel great, have more energy. I will let you know my results when I do go see my doctor.

Want to learn more? First off, I'd suggest watching "Forks over Knives" on Netflix or from the FOrks over Knives website.

Then, find information by Drs. Greger and Fuhrman. I have to emphasize that what we are doing is science-based and researched by doctors and nutritional researchers. It's not a fad. It is sustainable for life.
Dr. Greger Youtubes: www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg
Dr. Greger Website: www.nutritionfacts.org/

Dr. Fuhrman Youtubes: www.youtube.com/channel/UCp_ShZAUGtFLpYkgcTrayRQ
Dr. Fuhrman Website: www.drfuhrman.com/


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## painterswife

Keto is a way of life. One that works for type 2 diabetes and blood pressure for the majority of people. If you add in some fasting when you do eat to many carbs, it is even better.


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## Wind in Her Hair

Alice, these youtubes really helped motivate me and gave me hope. I hope this helps you!






and this 




and this 




and this


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## Alice In TX/MO

You are all awesome!!!

I do most of the cooking, so I simply don’t cook carbs. However, my friend has a stockpile of microwave ready potato and rice products. Plus, he just bought a big package of Oreos. 

Thank for the links and research recommendations. I will be digging into them!!


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## ErinP

My daughter and I both have celiac, so right off the bat, I just dont have a lot of carbs in the house (my son keeps the bread out of the way, clear up on the top shelf in the kitchen. The joke at our house is you have to be 6'2" to eat bread lol)

When Im strict about keto, weight just slides off. Meat and veggies.
But yeah, it can be hard to keep it up!


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## Alice In TX/MO

I am comfortable with a lifestyle change. 

I have done two fasts this week. I was surprised that I didn’t feel hungry. I set a time goal and stuck to it. Deciding to not eat is easier than limiting the third serving of something. Fewer decisions during the day. Lower stress. Less disappointment. 

Still reading!!


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## ErinP

http://www.90daylowcarbchallenge.com/
Its called "low carb," but the group is, and has always been, keto


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## Cabin Fever

Alice, if you get the chance, check out this issue of National Geographic.


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## Bellyman

Have been keto since last August. Down 60 pounds with lots of good things happening.

Spent quite a few years prior as a vegan and vegetarian. It didn't work out so well for me. That's a variable that plays out better for some than for others. I am doing much better and am healthier as an omnivore though I am rather picky about where the animal products I eat come from. I believe it matters (my opinion). 

Basically, I got rid of the carbs and the sugar. I eat some meats, some fish, eggs, dairy, cheese, and plenty of non-starchy veggies. I don't eat much fruit, just a few berries from time to time. I don't eat many beans, lots of carbs in them. But I have learned to make some really good keto friendly, low-carb desserts so don't think I go without. I don't go hungry. I don't avoid butter or cream. But high fat things tend to be quite filling and I rarely want a whole lot of them. I love that the 4 hour hunger monster doesn't come calling like it used to and I'm OK if I skip a meal or two, it's a non-issue. 

People have to find their own path. I spent a lot of years wanting to be a vegan/vegetarian and I envy those who are able to do it and be healthy. I am just not one of them. Genetics really do matter in that regard. I do, however, still eat a lot of veggies and still do have vegetarian meals so don't think that all I ever eat is meat. No. 

Good luck! I hope you find what you're looking for! Keto has been good to me.


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## Belfrybat

I eat low carb and have done so on and off for 40 years. I do not eat Keto (under 20 grams carb and lots of fat). I eat according to Protein Power guidelines. For me, that means between 60 - 75 effective carbs a day, medium to high protein and enough fat to make it all work. Effective carbs is calculated by subtracting fiber and 1/3 - 1/2 sugar alcohols. So in whole carb terms I eat around 100 a day. It keeps my diabetes in control, minimizes gastro problems and keeps my weight stable. Protein Power starts out at 30-40 grams of effective carbs a day and once you're into maintenance, you start adding carbs until you find your personal level. 
I am able to enjoy all the foods I like, including occasional Chinese dinner, pizza and chocolate. I just have to be careful not to overdo it. 
I tried intermittent fasting but it didn't play well with my diabetes.


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## Alice In TX/MO

I am cautious about protein because we went through years of eating very low protein to slow down his kidney failure. The doctor said high protein was hard on the kidneys. 

Moderation in all things!!


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## Bellyman

Belfrybat said:


> I eat low carb and have done so on and off for 40 years. I do not eat Keto (under 20 grams carb and lots of fat). I eat according to Protein Power guidelines. For me, that means between 60 - 75 effective carbs a day, medium to high protein and enough fat to make it all work. Effective carbs is calculated by subtracting fiber and 1/3 - 1/2 sugar alcohols. So in whole carb terms I eat around 100 a day. It keeps my diabetes in control, minimizes gastro problems and keeps my weight stable. Protein Power starts out at 30-40 grams of effective carbs a day and once you're into maintenance, you start adding carbs until you find your personal level.
> I am able to enjoy all the foods I like, including occasional Chinese dinner, pizza and chocolate. I just have to be careful not to overdo it.
> I tried intermittent fasting but it didn't play well with my diabetes.


Interestingly, the levels of carb intake that can allow a person to be in ketosis varies considerably from person to person. There are people that can barely stay in ketosis at 20g net per day. Others can approach 100g of carbs (usually athletic types) and remain in ketosis. So it's not exactly a one size fits all type thing. 20g of carbs a day is something that gets thrown around as a "magic number" mostly because it's pretty rare that a person can't be in ketosis at that level of carb intake. There are variations on how one counts fiber or sugar alcohols. Some count some of them or part of them but not all of them, and some count them all.

Protein intake that works well for a person is something else that can vary. On a keto diet, the range that gets thrown about is usually 0.7g to 1.2g of protein per pound of lean body mass. That's a pretty wide range. Some will do better towards the lower end of that, some seem to need more and end up closer to the top end of that range (or even beyond) to satisfy their needs. Those doing more physical work or bodybuilder types often need higher protein levels from what I'm told. Too much is not good. Too little is not so good either. Exactly where the right level is, that's pretty individual.

All that's left is fat. I don't worry all that much about it. I don't avoid good fats. But I don't consume as much as "I eat all I want" might conjure in someone's imagination. Fats are quite satisfying and it doesn't always take much for me to say, "I'm full." If I'm hungry shortly after eating, though, there is a good chance that I've not eaten enough fat in the last meal. Some will depend upon how messed up a person is. Hunger signals can get messed up to the point that a person can be in pain from having placed a huge quantity of food in their stomach and still not gotten the signal from their brain that says, "I'm full." I'm thankful that I'm not one who has that problem but I know there are some who do.

Just sharing the thoughts that come to mind.


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## roadless

Can those that are doing a keto food plan share a typical day of what you eat?


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## dmm1976

Really, just deciding to cut out fast food and processed food will put you pretty low carb naturally. I started by learning to like black coffee. Once I stopped putting sugar in my coffee I stopped eating junk foods...( Although I still like some chips and dip on occasion .)

Carbs aren't evil. And can have a place in your diet that is beneficial. I was strict keto for awhile and I've always been IF. Now I try to little my carbs but not fanatically. 

If you Google "carb nite solution" you can find some good info. Maybe your friend will be more open to this type of eating rather than ....no carbs at all.


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## painterswife

I eat meat, fish, green veggies. Cauliflower is great as a potato or rice substitute. Sour cream, cream cheeses and whipping cream. I use bacon grease and olive oil to cook in. Homemade mayo.

Go to foods.

Baked Salmon
Bacon and eggs
Flathead pizza
Scotch eggs
Chicken salad
Green salad with boiled eggs.
Egg salad with homemade mayo.

You need to plan and have quick snacks prepared so that you don't grab the easy prepared snacks. Scotch eggs or egg muffins works for us. My husband now eats only keto for his lunch and snacks when working. He does not get that lag he used to get when eating bread in a sandwich. Makes him less grumpy in the afternoon.


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## Oregon1986

roadless said:


> Can those that are doing a keto food plan share a typical day of what you eat?


Breakfast- eggs cooked in butter,bacon,keto coffee
Snack-devilled eggs or hard boiled eggs
Lunch- baked salmon cooked in olive oil, sauteed spinach and steamed green beans
Dinner- baked chicken breasts, sauteed green beans topped with fresh parmesan, green salad


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## roadless

Thanks Oregon 1986.
What is keto coffee?
Following my plan is going well but no milk or sugar in my coffee is a drag. Ugh.


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## MoonRiver

Keto is good for some people, but not for all. It is a high fat diet. If your mitochondria are effective fat burning machines and your stomach and gut are great at digesting fat and you don't have a leaky gut, keto is healthy. If not, all that fat can do bad things to you.

If you don't get the burst of energy that most get, that is one sign that keto may not be a good option. If after a couple of months, you start having strong cravings for sweets and starches, that is another clue. Go to any low carb forum and see how many people fail after the 1st couple of months. See how many people come back after being gone for a few months and say they had a lapse, but this time they are going to stick to it, only to repeat their failure over and over. And see how many people who have been on a low carb diet for years, have never reached goal or are struggling to try to stay at goal.

You also might find a difference in how your body handles saturated fats as compared to mono and polyunsaturated fats. Eating a diet high in saturated fats is bad for some people. 

So try keto, but keep assessing how you are doing. After 6 weeks or so, is it easy to stay on plan, or is every day a challenge? After 6-8 weeks, are you still getting the energy boost? Here's a big indicator - do you feel the need to cheat on holidays and other special days?

The other thing about a low carb diet is what happens when you go off it. People who lose weight on low carb and then go back to old eating tend to regain all the weight plus more. Of all diets tested, ex low carbers tended to regain the most weight.

Some people do great on keto. I'm just trying to point out some of the problems that low carb articles and books leave out. Different diets work for different people. There doesn't seem to be one perfect diet that works for everyone.


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## Nsoitgoes

I tend to have a very large cup of tea (or coffee) in the morning with a couple of TBSP heavy whipping cream in it. That is enough to hold me till around 4-ish in the afternoon. I tend to only eat once per day, when I am hungry (usually by 5pm when alone). When I eat I usually have a side salad with either Ranch or an oil/ACV or oil/lemon juice dressing, then a meat and non-starchy veg. When I am alone, my meat tends to be thrown in a skillet with butter, cooked till almost done, add the veggies and more butter if needed. Eat. When with SO, we tend to actually cook. Sometimes even from recipes <G> So we make something with a real sauce or something. But most of my meals are pretty simple. If I want a sauce I add a can of Rotel or some sour cream, or some wine or home made stock/broth. I often add herbs as I always have some growing. My favorites are rosemary, basil, thyme, oregano (greek or spicy), sage, bay leaves...


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## Cabin Fever

Today's menu for us who consume whole-foods, plant-based food only:

Breakfast - oatmeal made with walnuts, berries, peaches, and a bit of maple syrup

Lunch - Smoothie made with beet greens, kale, raw beet, carrots, banana, blueberries, chia seed, hemp seed, ground flax seed, tumeric, and almond milk

Dinner - Large salad of spinach, romaine, carrots, cucumber, tomato, whole-wheat croutons, walnuts, strawberries, pepitas, sunflower seeds, and a dressing made with almond milk, cayenne pepper, smoke paprika, dijon mustard, and maple syrup.


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## Terri

Cabin Fever, I have no idea what the portion size on each item is, but it MIGHT be low in protein.

Just a thought! I can certainly see why you lose weight on it!


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## painterswife

Here is a really good website for videos and recipes for Keto. You don't need to pay for membership to get a lot of info.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/


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## Cabin Fever

Terri said:


> Cabin Fever, I have no idea what the portion size on each item is, but it MIGHT be low in protein.
> 
> Just a thought! I can certainly see why you lose weight on it!


It's a common joke among people who base their consumption on whole food, plant-based foods about the number of times good-intentioned folks ask,"But what about protein?" We get our protein from the same sources that cows, horses, elephants, hippopotamuses, get their protein - plants.  We do also eat quite a variety of legumes,too (but not today) that are packed with good protein and no saturated fats.


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## Bellyman

MoonRiver said:


> Keto is good for some people, but not for all. It is a high fat diet. If your mitochondria are effective fat burning machines and your stomach and gut are great at digesting fat and you don't have a leaky gut, keto is healthy. If not, all that fat can do bad things to you.
> 
> If you don't get the burst of energy that most get, that is one sign that keto may not be a good option. If after a couple of months, you start having strong cravings for sweets and starches, that is another clue. Go to any low carb forum and see how many people fail after the 1st couple of months. See how many people come back after being gone for a few months and say they had a lapse, but this time they are going to stick to it, only to repeat their failure over and over. And see how many people who have been on a low carb diet for years, have never reached goal or are struggling to try to stay at goal.
> 
> You also might find a difference in how your body handles saturated fats as compared to mono and polyunsaturated fats. Eating a diet high in saturated fats is bad for some people.
> 
> So try keto, but keep assessing how you are doing. After 6 weeks or so, is it easy to stay on plan, or is every day a challenge? After 6-8 weeks, are you still getting the energy boost? Here's a big indicator - do you feel the need to cheat on holidays and other special days?
> 
> The other thing about a low carb diet is what happens when you go off it. People who lose weight on low carb and then go back to old eating tend to regain all the weight plus more. Of all diets tested, ex low carbers tended to regain the most weight.
> 
> Some people do great on keto. I'm just trying to point out some of the problems that low carb articles and books leave out. Different diets work for different people. There doesn't seem to be one perfect diet that works for everyone.


I agree, keto won't work well for everybody. 

But I kinda had to think when I read; "Go to any low carb forum and see how many people fail after the 1st couple of months. See how many people come back after being gone for a few months and say they had a lapse, but this time they are going to stick to it, only to repeat their failure over and over. And see how many people who have been on a low carb diet for years, have never reached goal or are struggling to try to stay at goal." In place of "low carb", insert just about any diet you can think of and the statement will be true! 

The other thing that came to mind is that you refer to low carb eating as a "diet". That mindset, and it doesn't just apply to low carb, is one of the big reasons "diets" of lots of different kinds fail. People get this idea that they will behave themselves just long enough to get their weight down, or whatever the goal may be, and then they can go back to eating anything they want. That's not the case for any diet. It's a lifestyle change. If not, it's temporary, including the weight loss. Only an idiot would think they could go back to their old eating habits and not return to their old problems. 

One of the reasons I tend to defend the keto lifestyle as much as I do is because I've lived around vegans and vegetarians my whole life. A few of them are quite healthy. But there are an awful lot of them who are gonna be vegans or vegetarians if it kills them, and it is. I see quite a lot of suffering that I believe to be malnutrition at the heart of it. It's not about what actually works for their health, it's more about what they think is "right or wrong" and by gosh, they're gonna eat that way no matter the consequences, and that is really sad. I used to be one of them. I woke up and found that what actually works for me doesn't fit that mold. Keto / low carb works for me. I don't have an end date when I can start eating junk again. And I'm fine with that. I eat very well, thank you very much.


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## Terri

Cabin Fever said:


> We do also eat quite a variety of legumes,too (but not today) that are packed with good protein and no saturated fats.


Glad to hear it. My vegetarian cousin made herself very sick because she decided to not eat the peas and beans and such.


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## Cabin Fever

I hear you, Bellyman. Too may people we know go with the new popular fad diets (defined as a consumption plan to lose weight). They all have names, Mediterranean diet, wheat belly diet, South Bend diet, paleo diet, Aitkens diet, etc. Once they lose the weight, they go back to their old eating lifestyles. Then, gain the weight back, and start all over again. 

We have discovered what I call a consumption lifestyle that is very close to what people have used for eons, especially in areas called "Blue Zones" where cultural groups have eaten 90% or more plant-based. It is not uncommon for Blue Zone populations to live into their 90s and 100s years of age. There has been significant study on the Blue Zones. Google it sometimes if you're interested. It's fascinating. 

Not only is there the Blue Zone research, but the new research into phytonutrients. We all know about macro and micronutrients, vitamins and minerals, but the research into phytonutrients is brand new. Plants contain 100s of phytonutrients that research is showing us that these compounds are useful in preventing all kinds of diseases, including cancer.

When the Number 1 disease that is responsible for killing Americans is heart disease. And, when this disease is brought on by eating a diet high in saturated fats, processed sugar, processed oils, and salt, it was a no brainer for us to chose a sustainable plant-based consumption lifestyle.


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## MoonRiver

Bellyman said:


> I agree, keto won't work well for everybody.
> 
> But I kinda had to think when I read; "Go to any low carb forum and see how many people fail after the 1st couple of months. See how many people come back after being gone for a few months and say they had a lapse, but this time they are going to stick to it, only to repeat their failure over and over. And see how many people who have been on a low carb diet for years, have never reached goal or are struggling to try to stay at goal." In place of "low carb", insert just about any diet you can think of and the statement will be true!


My point was lots of people say how easy a keto or low carb diet is. After being on the biggest low carb board for almost 20 years, I can tell you that the majority of members never reach goal and have trouble staying low carb. I was one of them and feel rather dumb it took so long for me to figure out low carb doesn't work for everyone and especially for me. It took a few trips to the ER before I figured it out.


> The other thing that came to mind is that you refer to low carb eating as a "diet".


If calling it a lifestyle makes you happy, fine it's a lifestyle. It's what you eat that's important and normally that is called one's diet, not one's lifestyle.


> One of the reasons I tend to defend the keto lifestyle as much as I do is because I've lived around vegans and vegetarians my whole life.


I wasn't discouraging anyone from trying keto and I'm not advocating becoming vegan. I probably have more experience than anyone here with a low carb/keto diet. If someone here has more years of experience doing low carb, I guess it didn't work for them either! I was simply pointing out some of the problems with a low carb diet that the low carb experts fail to point out. Hopefully someone might find the information helpful.


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## Barefootminis

Follow barefootinthemeadow on instagram. She's my sister. She has had IMMENSE success at keto, OMAD, and IF. Another awesome resource is Dr. Eric Berg on youtube. My sister is living evidence it works.


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## HermitJohn

I think people get too hung up on getting enough of this and that. Seriously you first eat a boatload of fresh produce. then add bit everything else. Simple as that if you arent diabetic.

For me what works best is to keep away from grain and grain derived products. Since I am diabetic I also have to keep away from starchy veggies and high sugar fruit. No processed anything.

So in other words a low carb mostly lacto ovo vegetarian diet including lot oily nuts and seeds. Grain is the big downside in most vegetarian diets. Refined or whole grain, both very high carb, just as well be eating cups full of sugar. You just wont find processed foods without some cheap flour or starch extenders or sugar for that extra profit. Food processors want their product both high profit and addictive. Carbs are addictive.


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## Cabin Fever

MoonRiver said:


> If calling it a lifestyle makes you happy, fine it's a lifestyle. It's what you eat that's important and normally that is called one's diet, not one's lifestyle.


I wasn't trying to argue your points. My comment relating to terminology is that for many people when you mention to them that you are on a keto "diet" or a plant-based "diet," they jump to the conclusion that what you're doing is something temporary to lose weight. Consequently, I just the term "lifestyle" or "lifestyle consumption" or "lifestyle diet" as an attempt to get across the point that this is a lifetime sustainable consumption practice, not a weight loss "diet." That's all.


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## Cabin Fever

HermitJohn said:


> I think people get too hung up on getting enough of this and that. Seriously you first eat a boatload of fresh produce. then add bit everything else. Simple as that if you arent diabetic.
> 
> For me what works best is to keep away from grain and grain derived products. Since I am diabetic I also have to keep away from starchy veggies and high sugar fruit. No processed anything.
> 
> So in other words a low carb mostly lacto ovo vegetarian diet including lot oily nuts and seeds. Grain is the big downside in most vegetarian diets. Refined or whole grain, both very high carb, just as well be eating cups full of sugar. You just wont find processed foods without some cheap flour or starch extenders or sugar for that extra profit. Food processors want their product both high profit and addictive. Carbs are addictive.


What a lot of people fail to understand is that Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much fat in a person's diet.
https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/fat-is-the-cause-of-type-2-diabetes/


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## painterswife

Cabin Fever said:


> What a lot of people fail to understand is that Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much fat in a person's diet.
> https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/fat-is-the-cause-of-type-2-diabetes/


I disagree. Just as we have been taught that low fat diets and the nutrition pyramid is the way to eat. New evidence proves that is wrong.


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## HermitJohn

Seriously carbs are addictive and EVERYWHERE cause they are cheap and taste good. I would never given up grain if it hadnt been for the diabetes. There is no secret cheating with diabetes, you do and you pay big time.


Cabin Fever said:


> What a lot of people fail to understand is that Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much fat in a person's diet.
> https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/fat-is-the-cause-of-type-2-diabetes/


Ah the big lie of medical community. The lie that wont die though the medical community itself now admits eating fat doesnt cause diabetes. The human body doesnt produce fat from consumed fat. It produces fat from consumed excess carbs. Like the hogs being fattened on grain for market. 

I ate a grain heavy vegetarian diet . Little fat, very little sugar (like my coffee black) and lot fiber. No diabetes in my family history. I got type2 diabetes. Now unlike most type2, I didnt have high cholesterol nor high blood pressure. Well it was little high from stress of out of control diabetes, but came down quickly when doc put me on insulin. In other words no clogged arteries. Mine wasnt SAD diet. But like the farmer that fattens livestock on grain for market, so my grain diet fattened me. Yeppers those good healthy high fiber whole grains. Have pressure cooker will travel... 

At certain point the liver just cant deal with the high carbs diet anymore and gets sluggish converting excess carbs to fat. Most type2 diabetics when autopsied show signs of non-alcholic fatty liver disease. Liver is sluggish and clogged up with fat. So you get the pancreas trying to make up for the sluggish liver and maxes out insulin in attempt to force cells to use the excess blood sugar. Eventually system breaks down and voila type2.

Yes there is a genetic component, but it just means some people are more tolerant of a high carb diet. Stronger liver or something. Still dont think that makes them immune to effects of a high carb diet. It just shows up in other ways.


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## painterswife

I find it very sad how modern medicine has fed us a bunch of hooey about diet and how it effects us. They use the studies that the for profit food industry do. Low fat was one of the biggest. Cholesterol will be the next one proven wrong.


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## MoonRiver

Cabin Fever said:


> What a lot of people fail to understand is that Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much fat in a person's diet.
> https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/fat-is-the-cause-of-type-2-diabetes/


Different diets for different people. Just about any sensible diet (low carb, Mediterranean, vegetarian, etc) has been shown to control type 2 diabetes, just not for 100% of people. So a low fat diet might work best for one person, a vegetarian may be best for another, and low carb for another. A lot of it has to do with our ancestry and especially the type of diet your mother and grandmother ate. Some genes were "tuned" to the types of foods your ancestors ate.

Our ancestors also ate seasonally, so it's quite likely they ate mostly vegetarian for part of the year, lots of fruit for part of the year, and mostly low carb part of the year. I think that might be why so many people find it hard to stick to a particular diet. It may be that we should change our diet type with the seasons. Animals get fat in the fall so they can survive the winter, and nature was good enough to supply the right foods in the fall for this to happen. But we can ship in food from anywhere in the world and eat summer foods in the middle of winter, so we have a genetic predisposition to gain weight in the fall, but never experience winter. This is the time that a low carb diet probably works best.


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## Cabin Fever

painterswife said:


> I disagree. Just as we have been taught that low fat diets and the nutrition pyramid is the way to eat. New evidence proves that is wrong.


Well, thank you Dr. Painterswife. I will await your evidence that is newer than the 1.3 year old link that I posted. I would love to read the evidence that supports your opinion.


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> Seriously carbs are addictive and EVERYWHERE cause they are cheap and taste good.


SOME carbs MAY be addictive. I can't imagine becoming addicted to greens. And even if I did, I couldn't eat enough of them to cause any harm.


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## painterswife

Cabin Fever said:


> Well, thank you Dr. Painterswife. I will await your evidence that is newer than the 1.3 year old link that I posted. I would love to read the evidence that supports your opinion.


No need to be snarky. You are the one in a Keto, fasting and carbs thread telling us who are working it to go plant based.


----------



## Cabin Fever

painterswife said:


> No need to be snarky. You are the one in a Keto, fasting and carbs thread telling us who are working it to go plant based.


For the record, I have not told anyone to do anything. I have been sharing what we're doing and why we are doing it. So, since I am not keto, I will bow out of this discussion.

The one thing I would recommend is that everyone do their own research. My wife and I are following the lead of our daughter and her husband, who are both participating MDs. If there is one place that I believe you might want to start your research, it would be at https://nutritionfacts.org/

That is all, I am now bowing out.


----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> No need to be snarky. You are the one in a Keto, fasting and carbs thread telling us who are working it to go plant based.


As an aside, it is possible to be on a vegetarian keto diet. I know that wasn't the point either of you made, but it brought it to mind.


----------



## painterswife

Cabin Fever said:


> For the record, I have not told anyone to do anything. I have been sharing what we're doing and why we are doing it. So, since I am not keto, I will bow out of this discussion.
> 
> The one thing I would recommend is that everyone do their own research. My wife and I are following the lead of our daughter and her husband, who are both participating MDs. If there is one place that I believe you might want to start your research, it would be at https://nutritionfacts.org/
> 
> That is all, I am now bowing out.


A website by the Doctor you follow who is vegan. Yes, he provides good info but it is all one sided. All about how bad meat is for you. Keto does not do that. It is low carbohydrate(sugar) but not only plant based.


----------



## painterswife

MoonRiver said:


> As an aside, it is possible to be on a vegetarian keto diet. I know that wasn't the point either of you made, but it brought it to mind.


I agree. Not low fat though.  Fat is bad you know. It causes heart disease.


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## oneraddad

If you can't eat a rib steak once in awhile, then that lifestyle is not for me. 

Why do you think we invented fire ?


----------



## Terri

painterswife said:


> I agree. Not low fat though.  Fat is bad you know. It causes heart disease.


Not always. We are not all the same.

When I started eating more fat and protein, my B/P dropped, my "bad" cholesterol went down, and my "good" cholesterol went up. And so my risk of heart disease went down.

Also my triglycerides went from 577 down to normal. Normal is less than 150.

There really is no one perfect diet, as nobody has a perfect body. I do not tolerate high carb, and some people do not tolerate high fat.

And my preferred steak is sirloin, on the grill.


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## painterswife

I would like to point out. I am more LCHF than I am Keto. I have not been able to completely give up some sugar, flour and legumes. I wish I could. I have though added in fasting when I overindulge and I am trying to do some longer fast so I hit autophagy. I think that is the key to good health.

I try to eat Keto more than LCHF because it gives me some leeway when I do indulge. For example. I can have a hamburger complete with bun if I have been Keto most of the week. My problem is that sugar and carbs feed my cravings. For example I can't seem to have coffee without sugar. I love coffee. Way too much so I have to cut it right out on Keto days. I also have to plan ahead when eating Keto. For example I have cooked sausages and salmon salad ( from left over salmon side we have once a week), boiled eggs or scotch eggs in the fridge.

For me this is a lifestyle not a diet. I have more energy. I feel less foggy. I thought that came with age but eating Keto changes that for me. I sleep better.


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## MoonRiver

Cabin Fever said:


> For the record, I have not told anyone to do anything. I have been sharing what we're doing and why we are doing it. So, since I am not keto, I will bow out of this discussion


The funny thing is you might be doing keto. Being in ketosis results from burning all available glucose and then burning fat. You are losing weight so you are burning fat. If your calories are low enough, your ketones could be over .5 nM which would mean you were in ketosis. 

What we call keto diets include lots of fat, moderate protein, and low carbs to minimize the amount of glucose and make it easier to reach ketosis. Fasting gets one into ketosis even faster. A mistake many on a keto diet make is to eat too much protein which is then converted to glucose. So any diet that causes one to burn fat has the potential to be keto (if enough ketone bodies are created).

The thought seems to be that by eating lots of fat instead of starches, the body becomes more efficient at burning fat. I don't know if this has ever been proven.


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> I agree. Not low fat though.  Fat is bad you know. It causes heart disease.


Even a low fat diet can be keto. And I think the jury is still out on fat and heart disease. Too many conflicting studies. And too many people that have successfully turned to a low fat vegetarian diet for heart problems when doctors had nothing left to offer.


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## MoonRiver

oneraddad said:


> If you can't eat a rib steak once in awhile, then that lifestyle is not for me.
> 
> Why do you think we invented fire ?


We discovered fire.


----------



## painterswife

MoonRiver said:


> Even a low fat diet can be keto. And I think the jury is still out on fat and heart disease. Too many conflicting studies. And too many people that have successfully turned to a low fat vegetarian diet for heart problems when doctors had nothing left to offer.


True. I think though the research shows that those results are more from calorie restriction that fat causing the heart disease. Hereditary situations not taken into account in this discussion. Heart disease is quite a bit about exercise than food eaten. Carbs and sugars tend to slow people down as they get older.


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## oneraddad

MoonRiver said:


> We discovered fire.



Don't you have a dozen donuts to eat ?


----------



## Bellyman

MoonRiver said:


> As an aside, it is possible to be on a vegetarian keto diet. I know that wasn't the point either of you made, but it brought it to mind.


That is a legitimate point, and one that's good to make.

There is a doctor that I follow that advocates a low carb lifestyle. He has stated that it is possible to eat a healthy diet as a vegetarian and even as a vegan but does not recommend it. It is not as easy as falling off of a log. A lot of people shortchange themselves on protein, vitamin B12 and a few other goodies that may take quite a long time to show up in symptoms and often overeat the starches and sugars to the point where things like heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, and diabetes show up despite their "healthy diet". Some supplement. Some get it right. So kudos to those who do. (Hey, for a lot of years, I wanted to be one of you, I really did. It just really did not work for me and after a few decades, I had to face the music and admit it. It's hard, almost to the level of a Christian becoming an atheist. Yes, some people view it that strongly.) Unfortunately, I've seen quite a lot of people up close and personal that it also really wasn't working so well for. It breaks my heart to see knowing that they'd rather die, sometimes one piece at a time, than realize that maybe they could change some of ways that they look at food and be a lot healthier.


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## newfieannie

I wouldn't bow out CF not at all!. we can all help each other. i've learned things from you on the thread. you must be doing something right to be off certain meds, losing weight etc. ~Georgia


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## barnbilder

Through thirty plus years of livestock rearing I have come to view ketosis as a potentially dangerous metabolic disorder. The keto diet was developed as a treatment for seizures, to be administered with careful monitoring by medical professionals. The reason people aren't dropping dead from it, is because not enough people genuinely follow it for long enough. They cut carbs, yet sneak something here and there, or fail to count something. 

Weight loss really isn't that hard. Simple math. The hard part is tracking everything. EVERYTHING. if you burn more calories than you eat you will lose weight. Some of that will be muscle. Exercise during weight loss and adherence to a diet plan that emphasizes high protein levels will minimize muscle loss. Carbs and fats are pretty much interchangeable, calorie for calorie. This is why the keto diet works. People get the total calories they need, and they get the protein they need. If they get close to where they want to be and quit tracking calories, or stop excerpting they will swell up like a tick though. Enough cycles of this could be harmful to internal organs. You only have one of some of them.

Fat is not as dangerous as some believe, the problem comes from how much is in what part of your body. If it is adhering to your viscera, it can be rather unsightly. If it is adhering to arteries that feed the heart it can be even more unsightly, depending on how warm it is and how long it is until they find you.


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## Elffriend

Ketoacidosis is a dangerous metabolic issue, mostly affecting diabetics, usually type 1 diabetics. Dietary ketosis, not so much.


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## Alice In TX/MO

I recommend that people interested in the diet read The Obesity Code. It is a compilation of new research, and written by a nephrologist.

Much of the “common knowledge” we have been taught about nutrition is being proven false.


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## Terri

There is a difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. The first is a normal burning of fats when there is not enough glucose in the blood steam, and the other is when it has been carried to dangerous extremes. And, yes, few people who raise livestock want to see their animals burning their fat. Also, assuming the animals are fed properly, it can mean the animal is getting an llness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketoacidosis

Ketoacidosis is, basically, ketosis on steroids and it is dangerous to both animals and humans: Barnbuilder is right to be concerned if his animals go into ketosis. It can signal the beginning of an illness that can kill.
.....................................................................................

The thing is, we are NOT all the same. And as we get older any malfunctioning body part tends to malfunction worse. For myself, I am a type 2 diabetic and that covers a WIDE range of possible malfunctions: not all type 2 diabetics do the same thing. The label covers a wide range of possible malfunctions.

Personally, BEFORE my body goes into ketosis it will FIRST dump sugar stored in my liver into my blood steam, and my blood sugar will go up to 200-ish, which is neither normal or healthy. So I avoid ketosis like the plague.

Is that normal? Nope. Not at all. My body is not SUPPOSED to do that but it does, and I am far from alone in this. According to my doctor it is not unusual among diabetics.

Now, most studies about digestion are done on healthy young adults. But, what the body of a healthy young adult does is not particularly what *MY* body will do. I am a diabetic and the test subjects are probably not. That means that their bodies will not do what mine does. So, if I want to stay healthy I must respect what my body CAN and CANNOT do. And my body CANNOT slide smoothly into ketosis: my blood sugar will first rise to very unhealthy levels. 

We are not all the same. The diet that will make a healthy young adult go into ketosis and burn fat will simply raise my blood sugar to unhealthy levels. Other people will have other problems, and those problems must be respected.

Never mind what diet will work for a perfectly healthy young adult: the MAIN point is, WHAT DIET WORKS FOR YOU?????? And, when a person realizes that the Standard American Diet is *NOT* working for them, how else to eat?

So we have the plant based diet, the traditional diabetic diet, the low carb diet, fasting, etc. And when one of us gets on a diet that works for our metabolisms, we tend to feel better and also shift to a better weight. 

That does not mean that weight loss is easy. I DEARLY wanted a hearty bedtime snack last night but I refused to eat one. Instead I ate 1 saltine cracker to sooth my stomach and I went to bed. Trying to lose weight is rarely pleasant. And while my diet is infinitely easier than the high-carb diet one well-meaning doctor put me on, it is still a diet and it is still hard at times to stay on it.

There is no one, true diet. The diet that will work for many of you will make my diabetic self ill, and vice versa. Because our metabolism's are not all identical.


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## MoonRiver

Lots of things happen to us as we age. Foods we ate when we were younger may now give us indigestion and heartburn. Our stomachs create less stomach acid and the liver less digestive enzymes. We may suddenly starting having a reaction to seafood for the 1st time in our lives. In my case, even beer sits unopened in the vegetable bin for months.

I'm really starting to think that for many people, fruit and vegetables are the answer. This is coming from someone who always thought vegetarians were nuts.

First I found I had to cut saturated fat to less than 10 g a day. Then I found that gluten causes a problem, even from oats in oatmeal. And finally, even no fat half/half caused problems. So when one has to limit saturated fat, give up gluten, and give up dairy, by default you are probably a vegetarian. I do try to eat fish once or twice a week, so technically I'm not vegetarian. And I certainly don't identify with vegans.

Even beans may be a problem for me. I need to have beans for a couple of meals and see how I do. There seems to be so many foods that cause me problems that I sometime mistake which caused the problem.

I was always the one that could eat anything and never get a stomach ache, indigestion, etc. Then around age 40, things changed. It became obvious when I found I could only drink 1 or 2 beers and then my stomach said stop. That is also when I went from overweight to severely obese.

Since then I got worse and worse, while doing low carb, until I stumbled on the fact that saturated fat was making me sick. Trial and error over the last 2 years has led me to give up red meat completely, greatly limit chicken, fish, and seafood, and now stop gluten and dairy. While my health is not great, it is much better than it was 2 years ago. I think there is a good chance that finally giving up all wheat and dairy may lead to even better health.

For all of you, I hope you find the diet that brings you good health. You're probably not going to find a single diet that solves all your health problems, so keep doing your research - and be skeptical. Everyone has an agenda.

Regardless of which diet you choose, if it allows greens and cruciferous vegetables eat them (especially guys). They are low in carbs and packed with healthy stuff. For those doing a low carb diet, from personal experience I think you are better off including low carb veggies instead of going to an all meat and dairy diet like so many do. It's good for some quick weight loss, but will probably make things worse in the long run.

People feel strongly about diet, especially when they believe theirs is the best. If we keep in mind we all want what is best for everyone here, we can discuss and debate and even question, without making anyone feel their comments are unwelcome. The more information we share, the better.


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## RideBarefoot

I feel much better on the LCHF Wheat Belly program. Joint and muscle pain goes away.


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## Bellyman

MoonRiver said:


> Regardless of which diet you choose, if it allows greens and cruciferous vegetables eat them (especially guys). They are low in carbs and packed with healthy stuff. For those doing a low carb diet, from personal experience I think you are better off including low carb veggies instead of going to an all meat and dairy diet like so many do. It's good for some quick weight loss, but will probably make things worse in the long run.


'
That, I agree with whole-heartedly! 

I'm part of a keto forum that has a number of "zero carb" types. That kinda scares me a little and I couldn't go there. I like my veggies!! And I eat my veggies!! Broccoli is one of my favorites. There is a pot of cabbage soup in the crockpot for tonight's supper. (Yes, it has a little grass fed ground beef in it, but that's not the main ingredient.) Cauliflower has become a good stand-in for a lot of my former potato consumption. Love me some Brussels sprouts, too, (admittedly, with a little browned butter over 'em.) Have become very fond of asparagus, too, but that could be another subject... I have 30 asparagus roots in the garage waiting for a nice day to plant them out... it's snowing here today... (danged groundhog!  )


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## painterswife

Brussels sprouts fried in bacon grease with some bacon.
Twice baked Cauliflower.
Fried riced cauliflower for chicken fried rice.

Just a couple of my favorites.


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## Wind in Her Hair

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Moderation in all things!!


Not really. 

For instance, we don't tell an alcoholic "just a little every now and then". 

The same rings true for the obese, diabetics, those with cardiac issues, hypertension, etc. Even "moderation" can have dire consequences. And it does not have to happen.


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## oneraddad

Wind in Her Hair said:


> Not really.
> 
> For instance, we don't tell an alcoholic "just a little every now and then".
> 
> The same rings true for the obese, diabetics, those with cardiac issues, hypertension, etc. Even "moderation" can have dire consequences. And it does not have to happen.


I agree ! 

I also believe everybody should stop drinking, that stuff is just nasty.


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## vicki in NW OH

I think it is kind of interesting that breastfed babies are keto-adapted and are mostly in ketosis. Then, we start shoveling rice cereal and oatmeal and sweet potatoes and bananas and applesauce into them and turn them into mostly depending on glucose for their nutritional needs. Is this natural? I don't know. Maybe ground liver and bone marrow thinned with broth would be more appropriate? At least there is baby food spinach and mushed up avocado. 

I have celiac disease, interstitial cystitis, and sjogren's. Food used to be my enemy. Even after being gf for years, my digestive system was at war with me. Then a wonderful functional medicine doc took me off all grains, legumes, all starches, and most sweet foods (even most fruits). I still eat a small amount of berries. I asked her about keto last fall, and she said go for it. For the first time in my life I'm not nauseated, no gerd, no diarrhea.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Wind in Her Hair 

Splitting hair. 


Sigh.


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## Bellyman

oneraddad said:


> I agree !
> 
> I also believe everybody should stop drinking, that stuff is just nasty.


Truly thankful to have never taken it up. It's something that hasn't done well for those in the family who have taken to it. I know my own genetics well enough to know it could be quite a disaster. (I have some Native American blood in me and it and alcohol don't typically mix too well.)


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## Kiamichi Kid

Cabin Fever said:


> What a lot of people fail to understand is that Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much fat in a person's diet.
> https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/fat-is-the-cause-of-type-2-diabetes/


I disagree


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## Kiamichi Kid

Cabin Fever said:


> For the record, I have not told anyone to do anything. I have been sharing what we're doing and why we are doing it. So, since I am not keto, I will bow out of this discussion.
> 
> The one thing I would recommend is that everyone do their own research. My wife and I are following the lead of our daughter and her husband, who are both participating MDs. If there is one place that I believe you might want to start your research, it would be at https://nutritionfacts.org/
> 
> That is all, I am now bowing out.


One doesn't have to be an MD to find what works for them and their bodies.


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## Kiamichi Kid

There is more than one path to healthy living and for weight loss for those seeking dietary/lifestyle changes for that purpose...
.
There is nothing wrong any individual or group of individuals eating in a manner that suits them,their lifestyle and beliefs.Whether that's Keto,Paleo,"Whole Foods" and anything else people use to describe their intake of food.

For those claiming that one way is a "Fad diet" and another is a"Lifestyle" is propaganda pure and simple...whatever each individual chooses as their way of eating is in fact their lifestyle...I have no issues with what, or how anyone else eats whether vegan,vegetarian,omnivore etc..Some folks however do act as if their lifestyle is in someway superior to their neighbor's ..I say that if it works for you...That's awesome..and I am glad to listen to your stories of success.I am not however inclined to listen to anyone preach,or look down their nose at others that may have chosen a different pathway to reach the same goal. (This is not directed at anyone in here per se,just a general observation)

I've eaten a lot of different ways during my life,most commonly those differences were dictated "for me "by changes in financial status,marital/partnership status ,lack of access to certain foods due to climate/location or my physical inability at the time to procure certain food because of injuries/illness that may have been dealing with at the time. I have also at times had the opportunity to eat in various ways of my own choosing and in fact to conduct my own research as to how my own body reacts to certain foods,the lack of those foods and in the timing and frequency of meals.I have and still on occasion eat both vegan and vegetarian meals.Sometimes I eat low carbohydrate/moderate protein/higher fat meals,sometimes I eliminate all processed foods that I can.....and sometimes I have no dietary restrictions at all other than portion size.

What have I have I found that works for me? I have found that for me and my body eliminating processed foods and refined sugars is a great way to lose weight,stabilize blood sugar and many other positive changes. I have also found that eating a Low Carbohydrate diet (Keto and others" was the very best way for me to lose weight/change my body composition and improve my overall health and well being. I can do all of the above as well by just watching my portion control and not eliminating entire food groups from my meals..I'm just able to do it all faster with Intermittent Fasting/Keto/Low carb eating than the rest...

So ask questions,research,listen to others that have success stories to tell... and then find what works for you... I'll ask a couple of my friends that I've told about Keto if I can share some of their photos...until then..Best of luck to each of you in the path that you choose for yourselves.


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## reneedarley

Cabin Fever said:


> Today's menu for us who consume whole-foods, plant-based food only:
> 
> Breakfast - oatmeal made with walnuts, berries, peaches, and a bit of maple syrup
> 
> Lunch - Smoothie made with beet greens, kale, raw beet, carrots, banana, blueberries, chia seed, hemp seed, ground flax seed, tumeric, and almond milk
> 
> Dinner - Large salad of spinach, romaine, carrots, cucumber, tomato, whole-wheat croutons, walnuts, strawberries, pepitas, sunflower seeds, and a dressing made with almond milk, cayenne pepper, smoke paprika, dijon mustard, and maple syrup.


Looks great. I would however, Add some seeds in the morning too, to make a better amino acid balance in the protein. I would also seriously think about calcium , milk products as I am older and again for amino acid balance. But that is a personal opinion.


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## barnbilder

Weight loss all boils down to some pretty simple math. Calories in minus calories out. If the answer is a negative number, then there will be weight lost. Makes little difference what those calories come from. With today's technology, it is very easy to keep track of this. Still hard to gauge activity levels, but daily weighing of one's self can give insight into calorie level adjustments. Goals make a lot of difference, too. If you are trying to lose you should be in a deficit, if you are trying to build muscle you need to be in a bulk/cut cycle almost continually, with higher protein levels.

If people are really tracking things, what are your numbers? What is your fat/carb/protein ratio on the keto/atkins type diets? I'm mid forties, was obese, decided I didn't want knee replacements, blood pressure meds, or any of those things, so I started eating smarter and working out. Now, I am working steadily at gaining weight, in the form of muscle. I figure if I look like Arnold by around fifty, I should stay healthy for long enough to see me out. I can't build muscle using fat, so my fat levels are around 25 to 30%, and I shoot for 1g/# protein. The rest is carbs. Carbs are good, they give you energy, so you can exercise, which is as important as watching what you eat.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Weight loss all boils down to some pretty simple math. Calories in minus calories out. If the answer is a negative number, then there will be weight lost. Makes little difference what those calories come from. With today's technology, it is very easy to keep track of this. Still hard to gauge activity levels, but daily weighing of one's self can give insight into calorie level adjustments. Goals make a lot of difference, too. If you are trying to lose you should be in a deficit, if you are trying to build muscle you need to be in a bulk/cut cycle almost continually, with higher protein levels.
> 
> If people are really tracking things, what are your numbers? What is your fat/carb/protein ratio on the keto/atkins type diets? I'm mid forties, was obese, decided I didn't want knee replacements, blood pressure meds, or any of those things, so I started eating smarter and working out. Now, I am working steadily at gaining weight, in the form of muscle. I figure if I look like Arnold by around fifty, I should stay healthy for long enough to see me out. I can't build muscle using fat, so my fat levels are around 25 to 30%, and I shoot for 1g/# protein. The rest is carbs. Carbs are good, they give you energy, so you can exercise, which is as important as watching what you eat.


It's way more complicated than calories in/calories out. Your mitochondria are where energy is made - food is converted to ATP. The more bad food you eat, the more free radicals are made, leading to inflammation.

Instead of low fat, low carb, Paleo, Weight Watchers, etc, what we really need is the Mitochondria Diet that makes our mitochondria function at the highest level. When mitochondria are functioning properly our cells are functioning properly, which means we are not sick and not fat.

Our goal really is to have the healthiest mitochondria possible. Genetics plays a part. If your mitochondria aren't efficient at burning fat, more fat gets stored, and a person may eat more to try to keep their energy level up.

I did the 23ndMe genetics test several years ago. One thing I learned was I might have difficulty metabolizing fat (from diet). This really didn't mean anything until I finally realized that what it meant was genetically, my mitochondria was better at converting glucose to ATP than fat. So even though I might eat the same amount of calories as someone else, they efficiently converted fat to energy and I didn't. For the same amount of calories, I was tired and stored more fat.

So yes it is calories in, calories out; but in my case, part of the out was storing fat instead of burning it. It wasn't that I was eating too many calories, it was that I was eating too much fat. What we are shooting for is turning calories out into ATP, not into fat stores. That's why everyone has to find what works for them, should their main fuel be glucose or fat or balanced. There are 2 ways to find out: trial and error or a great clinician that understands genetics and how food is converted to energy.


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## Bellyman

Cabin Fever said:


> What a lot of people fail to understand is that Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much fat in a person's diet.


Maybe, maybe not. 

The conclusion I have come to is that there are two main streams of intake, one of which can lead to good health for most people. Stream #1 is high carb, low fat. That's where many of the vegan/vegetarian types tend towards as plant foods tend to have very low fat. And as long as the fats are very low, some people are able to do well. When it becomes a high carb, high fat diet, that's getting into "standard American diet" territory and that's not good. Stream #2 is a low carb, high fat diet. It's on the other end of the food spectrum from the HCLF folks but there are people that also are able to do very well with that way of eating. But again, there is the same danger as the Stream #1 folks, turning the LCHF diet into a high carb, high fat diet, right back to "standard American diet" territory. 

Thing of it is, high fats and high carbs just don't get along (I'm simplifying, the mechanisms are a bit complicated and a little different sliding in from LCHF and HCLF, but the combination of the two isn't a good thing either way) . If you choose a path of high carbs, you had better limit the fats. If you choose a path of high fat, you had better limit the carbs. 

There are genetic differences among us that can make one path easier or more healthy than the other. There are differences in gut biome from person to person, even in the same household. Some will do well on one path while there might even be a spouse who will not do well at all. I know a few like that. 

I do have some opinions of how we as humans are quite different from the herbivores some like to compare humans to that are big and strong. We do not have four stomachs and we do not have the chemistry and fermentaion happening in our guts that those large herbivores have. Comparing the two and thinking they're the same is a road I have serious doubts about. It gets pretty complex, though, and the science is beyond where I'd really want to even try to go in a setting like this. 

No offense intended, regardless of where you happen to fall in the eating spectrum. I tend to tell my own story because I was doing what was wrong for me for so many years, which happened to be vegetarian for many years, vegan for a few years. Your story is different, and that's not wrong. Where ever you found that's right for you, I wish you good health!


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## painterswife

It actually for the most part comes down to insulin and your bodies ability to use it and make it. You can run on a high carb diet if you calorie restrict and keep your heart disease down. However the standard American diet shows that this will catch up with you and effect your insulin resistance. As Bellymen points out, high fat and high carb is a killer. It slowly gums up the organs including the liver and brain. LCHF works for so many because you don't need carbs as fuel. Fat and ketones are a far better fuel for you and your brain.

A balanced diet that limits sugars throughout your lifetime is the best. However so many of us have eaten the standard American diet for way too many years and have effected the operation of our bodies, guts and brains and hormonal systems. Now we have to go a bit extreme to get it back to where it should be if we can. Sugar being one of the biggest problems. We are fighting our cravings and carb cycling to work back to a place where a balanced diet is possible.

Insulin and inflammation. Watch the studies that come out over the next few years. I think it will be industry changing for the food industry. Butter, eggs and whole milk are back. Low fat will be a thing of the past. There will be a small part of the population that either has unique metabolic problems or has already destroyed their systems that won't be able to make the change but if our children eat less sugar and processed carbs and more real foods with the proper fats it will start to swing the other way.


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## barnbilder

Show me the percentages. What percentage of your diet is fat? What percentage is protein? Carbs?
Are you determining that based on weight, volume or calorie count?


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Show me the percentages. What percentage of your diet is fat? What percentage is protein? Carbs?


Who is that for and why?


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## barnbilder

Anyone discussing dieting. Unless you are stating percentages, all discussion is pretty much meaningless. Saying that you have a high fat low carb diet is one thing, but might not make it so without tracking. All I see here is talk of foods included in diet. You can include any food in any diet, it's how much you eat of it that is consequential.


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## painterswife

My goal percentages are 70 percent fat, 25 percent protein, 5 percent carbs. They can vary up and down 5 to 10 percent per day but I like to look at the weekly percentages not the daily to see what I am eating.


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## Elffriend

Here's an article about why "calories in, calories out" doesn't tell the whole story:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/debunking-the-calorie-myth#section1


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## painterswife

That is an excellent link. Just a certain drugs effect your body so do certain foods.


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## barnbilder

Strictly tracking calories and macro nutrients and adhering to a diet plan versus eating from a list of foods are likely to have different results. It's all about goals. My goal is to trick my metabolism into burning more calories by building more muscle. Muscle is built with weight training and protein intake. Having my body convert that precious protein into glucose because I starved myself of carbs does not fit into that plan.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Strictly tracking calories and macro nutrients and adhering to a diet plan versus eating from a list of foods are likely to have different results. It's all about goals. My goal is to trick my metabolism into burning more calories by building more muscle. Muscle is built with weight training and protein intake. Having my body convert that precious protein into glucose because I starved myself of carbs does not fit into that plan.


If you are burning fat as fuel, you don't need carbs. Keto is high fat, low carb and moderate protein. Power lifters are doing quite well on Keto and building muscle all the time.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Strictly tracking calories and macro nutrients and adhering to a diet plan versus eating from a list of foods are likely to have different results. It's all about goals. My goal is to trick my metabolism into burning more calories by building more muscle. Muscle is built with weight training and protein intake. Having my body convert that precious protein into glucose because I starved myself of carbs does not fit into that plan.





painterswife said:


> If you are burning fat as fuel, you don't need carbs. Keto is high fat, low carb and moderate protein. Power lifters are doing quite well on Keto and building muscle all the time.


You are both mostly right.

The body does require a small amount of glucose, so if you don't eat carbs, your body can make it from protein. But it is a small enough amount that it doesn't effect building muscle.


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## Kiamichi Kid

painterswife said:


> If you are burning fat as fuel, you don't need carbs. Keto is high fat, low carb and moderate protein. Power lifters are doing quite well on Keto and building muscle all the time.


Exactly, and if you stay within your macros your body won't be converting any of the protein to glucose.


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## Kiamichi Kid

I've not only used keto in the past to achieve certain goals... I've also introduced a good many friends to the keto lifestyle. They've come from all walks of life from nurses aids to fitness trainers...I'll post some photos of a couple of my friends...The first I'll call "G"....She works out often,trains others and has been on keto since I told her about it 15 months ago...She has zero issues building or maintaining muscle.
The second friend I'll call "T"...she wanted a way that she could lose weight after trying many other "diets"..she has been on keto for 1 year.


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## MoonRiver

> I've not only used keto in the past to achieve certain goals..


For a minute, I thought one of your goals was to turn yourself into a sexy, blond woman!


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## Kiamichi Kid

MoonRiver said:


> For a minute, I thought one of your goals was to turn yourself into a sexy, blond woman!


I do have some goals that would include such ladies.... me being one of the ladies isn't one of those goals  ..lol


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## painterswife

Just made this bread. https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/the-keto-bread

Delicious.

And filling. Lots of fiber as well.


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## painterswife

Really filling. Had one with some butter. I don't think I can eat dinner.


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## Bellyman

painterswife said:


> Just made this bread. https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/the-keto-bread
> 
> Delicious.
> 
> And filling. Lots of fiber as well.


Thanks for sharing! I've seen the recipe before but haven't tried it yet.


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## barnbilder

For those on a keto diet. I understand that they work. I understand that it doesn't make any difference where your calories come from and that you can lose weight if you get your intake low enough. I understand that some (possibly all) people feel more satisfied with more fat. I also understand that those with diabetes or other metabolic diseases really do need to be careful about things that can be turned to sugar easily. But my question is, are you concerned at all with things like heart problems, stroke, or any of the other problems associated with "too much fat in the diet"? Do you figure you are more healthy at a healthy weight, or with the diabetes managed and it is a calculated risk? 

Is it an all or nothing thing, does it only work when you cut carbs drastically, or can you just run fat a little higher than what is considered normal?

I genuinely want to know more about it. I don't think it would work for me, because I don't think I could stick with it. Fats run 9 calories per gram, carbs 4, so I can fill my belly with more carbs and have the same calories. I am fortunate to be have 2,200 calories a day to work with at a very slight deficit. o it does give me more wiggle room. I can see where someone on an extremely calorie restricted diet would have problems with satiation and energy, and where the fat would help with that. (IOW, satiation might not be attainable anyway, so the fat would give more balanced energy levels for the whole period between meals)


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## painterswife

Fat does not cause heart disease. I can't say it any simpler. It helps when combined with too much sugar/carbs. Lower the carbs, burn fat as fuel and heart disease is not a problem unless you have other hereditary factors.


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Fat does not cause heart disease. I can't say it any simpler. It helps when combined with too much sugar/carbs. Lower the carbs, burn fat as fuel and heart disease is not a problem unless you have other hereditary factors.


You shouldn't make a blanket statement like that. Fat may not cause heart disease for the majority of people, but that doesn't mean it can't cause heart disease for others. The normal distribution suggests some percentage of people will have trouble with fat and heart disease.

That's one problem I have with scientific studies. They usually only are concerned with the rule and ignore the exceptions. Then dumb people like me keep doing the wrong thing over and over because science says that's what I'm supposed to do.


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## painterswife

MoonRiver said:


> You shouldn't make a blanket statement like that. Fat may not cause heart disease for the majority of people, but that doesn't mean it can't cause heart disease for others. The normal distribution suggests some percentage of people will have trouble with fat and heart disease.
> 
> That's one problem I have with scientific studies. They usually only are concerned with the rule and ignore the exceptions. Then dumb people like me keep doing the wrong thing over and over because science says that's what I'm supposed to do.


I did have a qualifier in there, two in fact.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Is it an all or nothing thing, does it only work when you cut carbs drastically, or can you just run fat a little higher than what is considered normal?


I suspect it depends on the individual.

For example I am a type 2 diabetic, and my illness is at the stage where my body CANNOT release a lot of insulin at once, but it can release small, steady doses.

Now, sugar is digested in just a few minutes and then the body is supposed to release a slug of insulin so that the cells of the body immediately absorb the sugar and it is then out of the blood stream and the cell burns the sugar as fuel. This is good because high blood sugar is just as bad for your heart as high fats because your body forms triglycerides to use up the extra sugar, and triglycerides gunk up your veins just like high cholesterol does. So, before I was diagnosed my high blood sugars were giving me an increased risk of heart trouble. Also my B/P was high due to the triglycerides coating my veins. My body does NOT release big slugs of insulin: it is UNABLE to do so.

At any rate, if I eat sugar my blood sugar rises in minutes just like it is supposed to, however my body is UNABLE to release a big slug of insulin which would allow the cells of my body to quickly absorb that sugar. For my diabetic self there is no releasing a big slug of insulin: the best my body can do is a slow, steady release of insulin. No more

I PROMISE there is an explanation in here as how this might affect you. Maybe.

At any rate, fat is SLOWLY digested over some hours, and while all food CAN be broken down into sugar, when you have eaten fat it takes hours to be digested and turned to sugars. That means that sugar is released into the blood stream slowly and steadily. And, my body CAN release a slow and steady amount of insulin, which means that sugar from digesting fat will be absorbed by the cells of the body just as fast as it was released. Which is what our bodies were meant to do. The cells of the body can, and will, burn sugar as fuel.

How does all of this relate to non-diabetics? Well, some people are "carbohydrate intolerant". That is kind of like diabetes but not nearly so severe, and carbohydrate intolerance is COMMON!

Whether eating more carbs or eating ore fat is healthier kind of depends on if you are carbohydrate intolerant or not. If someone who is carbohydrate intolerant eats too many carbs their blood sugar will rise and so will their triglycerides, which means that their risk of heart trouble goes up.

If somebody has a pancreas that works perfectly well then their blood sugar will NOt go up if they eat too many carbohydrates, and that person should worry more about high fat.

Lastly. For MOST people, if their blood sugar goes low their body will burn fat instead of burning sugar. The keto diet is meant to get the body to do this. I do not know as much about ketosis because I am not a nutritionalist: what I know I learned through the school of hard knocks and through reading. Also because my body does not go into ketosis and I do not know why.
...........................................................................

Personally, I have never wanted to eat a high fat diet and so, while I did increase the fat in my diet a little, I did not switch to a high fat diet so I cannot say if a high fat diet would be a good thing. Instead I simply ate more of the lower fat meats, like low-fat hamburger. So my fat intake did increase a little when I was diagnosed with diabetes but I am not on a high fat diet, just a slightly increased fat diet. FOR ME, increasing the fat and decreasing the carbs was a good thing that lowered my blood pressure and made my heart healthier, but I raised the protein more than I raised the fat.

At any rate, I guess the answer to your question if a high fat diet is really healthier than a high carb diet the answer would be in your own metabolism, and how well it works.


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## Elffriend

Barnbilder, you're still wrapped up in the idea that calories are the key and they really aren't. I have been dieting, on and off, for most of my life. I was put on my first diet when I was 9. It wasn't until a decade ago that I tried my first low carb diet and knew I would never go back to low fat diets again. One of the rules of Atkins is that if you're hungry, you should eat something, so long as it is something low carb. You never have to be hungry on a low carb diet. Once you get through the first couple of days and you're in ketosis you won't get hungry, at least not the crazy "got to eat now" hungry I used to get when I was eating low fat. Ketosis suppresses hunger. You will feel satisfied on less food for longer.

I can't hold myself up as a poster child for Atkins or any other keto/low carb diet. I lost about 80 pounds in a little less than 2 years. I held there for a very long time. I fell off the wagon and gained back 30. I stayed there for awhile, eating low-ish carb but not ketogenic. I'm now back in ketosis but the weight is not coming off as quickly as the first time. I don't worry about heart disease for two reasons. Firstly, because my diabetes is a "here and now" problem which can damage my heart, my nerves and circulation among other things. Keeping my blood sugar in control is more important than possibly getting heart disease later. Secondly, I don't believe that eating HFLC will increase my risk of getting heart disease. I think it's actually protective.

A study that showed low carb diets were better than low fat diets for weight loss, decreasing triglycerides and increasing HDL:
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/...ogenic-diet-versus-low-fat-diet-treat-obesity

A small study of people who already had cardiovascular disease showing that a low carb diet decreased weight, body fat, triglycerides and VLDL:
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)62710-9/abstract

Heart Disease risks, low carb vs low fat:
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/830704


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## barnbilder

If you can't understand the relationship between caloric deficit and weight loss, then weight loss can be more difficult for you. You can eat from any list of foods you want to, but without tracking, you aren't going to win. If you don't have a plan you can stick with for the rest of your life, then it is not going to work.


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## Terri

Elsffriend did not mean that calories do not count: they do. She is trying to say that if you are eating a diet that is not right for you that you will burn calories less efficiently and have more cravings as well. If your diet is not right for you then your metabolism may drop, meaning you feel less energetic and burn fewer calories.

For myself, I have found that both calories AND the type of diet counts.


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## oneraddad

We all have cravings, but it's all up to you to control them. People with strong willpower will succeed more than the weak minded, even though we all have the willpower within us. You just have to believe in yourself and not give in.


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## painterswife

oneraddad said:


> We all have cravings, but it's all up to you to control them. People with strong willpower will succeed more than the weak minded, even though we all have the willpower within us. You just have to believe in yourself and not give in.


Eating Keto, I don't have cravings.  That is the point. I do have wants but they are easier to control with will power.


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## HermitJohn

oneraddad said:


> We all have cravings, but it's all up to you to control them. People with strong willpower will succeed more than the weak minded, even though we all have the willpower within us. You just have to believe in yourself and not give in.


Yea but who wants a full time hobby of fighting cravings? Or full time hobby of counting calories?

With low carb I simply didnt have those battles. 50 pounds came off without me thinking about it. My body automagically did all the work, I simply wasnt as hungry as often. And its a diet I can live with rest of my life without huge struggles. Why make life more difficult than it has to be?


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## Bellyman

painterswife said:


> Eating Keto, I don't have cravings.  That is the point. I do have wants but they are easier to control with will power.


Keto has been good to me, too. The four-hour-hunger-monster is long gone and I don't want him back.  There aren't any crackers or chips or typical snack kinds of things in the house even if I did get an urge. We just don't buy that stuff anymore. And when I do get an urge, it's usually for something like broccoli or an egg. 

Willpower hasn't been a problem because I don't go hungry. I eat good and satisfying food when I eat and I think that makes a difference. When I do eat, I eat enough that I really don't want any more, I'm full, I'm satisfied. Most days, I eat two meals a day but occasionally, I'll skip breakfast and only eat one. It would only be because I'm not hungry, not because I'm gonna grit my teeth and torture myself. 

When I want something that isn't keto, like something crunchy, I do have some keto granola, which is mostly nuts if I want that, or just some nuts. (Pecans are a personal favorite.) If I want something sweet, there are sugar-free and low carb things like homemade cookies, homemade peanut butter bars, homemade cupcakes / muffins, even homemade ice cream if I want it. I don't buy it, the stuff in the store is horribly priced and has a whole bunch of stuff in that ingredients list that I can barely pronounce. Um, no. But then again, I like to cook and bake. (If I had a dozen lifetimes to live, I think one of them would be as a chef.)

(This is the truth, I'm not making this up. A few months ago, I decided to try one of those low carb sugar free ice creams from the store. They're like $11,800/oz... I'm exaggerating, but they're a ridiculous price. And I suppose they taste OK, not great, but OK. That tiny container got one small serving for me and my wife taken out of it, months ago. The rest is still sitting there. Either of us could have it any time we want it, totally guilt free. Take it, anytime. Enjoy it. It's still sitting there. Does that illustrate where the ice cream craving monster went to?)

In a way, I don't think people who haven't actually experienced that can understand it. And I don't fault them for that. I didn't really understand it either, before it happened. Maybe everyone can't even get there, I don't know. There do seem to be some variations in people, genetics and such.


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## oneraddad

I drove by "In n Out" today while in town and craved a double double animal style as I passed by, but continued on my way.


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## newfieannie

I think I started keto sometime in april. hardest part I found was giving up bread. I did it though. I could easily have had 100 slices by this time and that's a conservative no. I'm not doing this to lose weight or because I have diabetes but to hopefully not get it. I have several friends who have lost limbs.

I got hung up on it there for awhile like HJ mentioned I worried if I was doing this or that right. everything is leveled off now. I don't crave the bread or sweets etc. I ate my first Avocado first week in march. I hated them things but they are supposed to be a miracle food. I got them down first by mashing with a little heavy cream. no problem now I eat 1/2 one a day. I couldn't stand eggs either or any greens other than swiss chard.no trouble now. it was a whole different way of eating for me but I did conquer it. didn't even have the keto flue as far as I know. I was in excellent shape before but this should take me to 100 lol~Georgia


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## Elffriend

Thank you, Terri. What I am trying to get across to Barnbilder is that not all calories are created equal. The reaction your body will have to 100 calories of olive oil is completely different than it will have to 100 calories of orange juice. The first has almost no affect on my blood sugar. The other would probably knock me out of ketosis. 

Once out of ketosis I will have cravings for even more sugary foods and it will go from something that would be considered "healthy" on SAD, like the OJ, to sugar filled junk food. It is not always about will power when you're on a rollercoaster of high and low blood sugars.

The other point I'd like to try and make is that if you keep your fat, protein and carb ratios in a zone that keeps you in ketosis, you don't really have to track calories. I find that if I keep my fat at 70-75%, protein at 20-25% and carbs around 5% I naturally eat around 1500 to 1600 calories/day. Usually when I have a visit to my diabetes team on the horizon I know they are going to want a 3 day food diary so I pop over to fitday.com and keep track for a couple of days. It really is amazing to see how consistent my intake is.


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## painterswife

A great explanation. If I eat more carbs I am chasing that sugar high. I get shaky if I don't eat. If I eat high fat I can go all day with out eating and never get shaky.


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## Terri

painterswife said:


> A great explanation. If I eat more carbs I am chasing that sugar high. I get shaky if I don't eat. If I eat high fat I can go all day with out eating and never get shaky.


Yeah, perfect illustration.

But we ARE all a bit different: if I eat NO carbs I might not shake but I get bad cravings. If I eat just a FEW carbs then I am comfortable in my own skin and am ready to face the day. Which is why I intend to eat one piece of bread with my eggs this morning. I will then be ready to concentrate on the day's activities.

Some people are comfortable eating no carbs at all, but I am not.


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## painterswife

Terri said:


> Yeah, me, too.
> 
> But we ARE all a bit different: if I eat NO carbs I might not shake but I get bad cravings. If I eat just a FEW carbs then I am comfortable in my own skin and am ready to face the day. Which is why I intend to eat one piece of bread with my eggs this morning. I will then be ready to concentrate on the day's activities.
> 
> Some people are comfortable eating no carbs at all, but I am not.


No carbs would be hard for me as well.


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## oneraddad

How long do your cravings last ? 

Do you have any control over them ?

I crave all kinds of things, some good, some bad. Every once in awhile I'll crave alcohol but I wouldn't drink any. I crave riding dirt bikes like I did when younger but too much time in ICU has me staying off them. I crave to go to Alaska and catch a bunch of Salmon and Halibut but I just can't pull the money out of the bank and spend it. Would I like to have a big apple fritter at the convenience store like I did years ago, you bet I would. I sit here at my desk sometimes in the early morning thinking it'd be cool if my buddy showed up with his bag of apple fritters. I control all these things, and every other decision I make also. I guess I just don't understand a cravings lasting longer than a few seconds without being able to change that thought. Sometimes I see some yoga pants and get a craving, but I don't act on it.


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## painterswife

Craving for me is physical not mental. My body wants something desperately. When I was going through pre-menopause, I could go from craving chocolate and potato chips ( I now know that was magnesium and potassium) to crying uncontrollably in a hour if I did not get it. This went on for 8 months until I was given hormones. I had no control. It was a huge surprise for me and my new husband.

When I eat lots of carbs and am burning sugar for fuel instead of fat I get the shakes. Again physical not mental. When I eat low carb, high fat that goes away. Sugar also shuts down my satiety switch. I am always hungry and that translates to the shakes. Like an alcoholic trying to dry out. Physical not mental.


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## Elffriend

oneraddad said:


> How long do your cravings last ?
> 
> Do you have any control over them ?
> 
> <snip> I guess I just don't understand a cravings lasting longer than a few seconds without being able to change that thought.


They last for hours. I can feel it coming on. It's not just my mind going "Hmm, I think I'd like something sweet" I get shaky. I get a headache. I get "hangry" to the point where I start getting snippy with my family and one of them will suggest I eat something. I try drinking a big glass of water. I try eating something low carb and waiting it out. I usually do wait it out, but not always. But I know I will suffer more if I give in because the high/low sugar cycle will begin. I don't get these cravings if I maintain a low carb way of eating. But if I slip up, eat too many carbs and knock myself out of ketosis, I'm in for a couple of days of sugar monster cravings. It is not a casual longing for something I shouldn't have. It is a maddening drive to eat. If you haven't experienced it, you really can't understand what it's like.


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## Bellyman

Terri said:


> Yeah, perfect illustration.
> 
> But we ARE all a bit different: if I eat NO carbs I might not shake but I get bad cravings. If I eat just a FEW carbs then I am comfortable in my own skin and am ready to face the day. Which is why I intend to eat one piece of bread with my eggs this morning. I will then be ready to concentrate on the day's activities.
> 
> Some people are comfortable eating no carbs at all, but I am not.


I think there are quite a lot of low-carb folks who get along better with some carbs as opposed to NO carbs. You had some carbs as a piece of bread this morning. I had some as a serving of yogurt. 

There are some people that can approach 100g of carbs a day and stay in ketosis! They're usually athletic types, but it's not unheard of. 

We do all kinda have to find our sweet spot. I'm glad you have a good handle on where you feel the best. Some people tend to search for that almost forever and never do get there.


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## newfieannie

so what do all of you use as an alternative to bread,buns,crackers etc. all that good tasting stuff we use to eat. my cravings are gone but I still think about a slice once in awhile. I use to spread mine with butter and peanut butter. we can still have butter and pb as far as I can see but what do we spread it on that we are allowed to have. ~Georgia


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## painterswife

I made this recipe on the weekend. It was delicious and filling. I am going to use it to make hamburger buns tonight.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/the-keto-bread


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## Nsoitgoes

Elffriend said:


> They last for hours. I can feel it coming on. It's not just my mind going "Hmm, I think I'd like something sweet" I get shaky. I get a headache. I get "hangry" to the point where I start getting snippy with my family and one of them will suggest I eat something. I try drinking a big glass of water. I try eating something low carb and waiting it out. I usually do wait it out, but not always. But I know I will suffer more if I give in because the high/low sugar cycle will begin. I don't get these cravings if I maintain a low carb way of eating. But if I slip up, eat too many carbs and knock myself out of ketosis, I'm in for a couple of days of sugar monster cravings. It is not a casual longing for something I shouldn't have. It is a maddening drive to eat. If you haven't experienced it, you really can't understand what it's like.


That describes perfectly how it is for me. I was an idiot on Saturday when SO and I held a dinner. I nibbled as I prepped (stupid!) then I had a *tiny* amount of potatoes and a sliver of cheesecake (even stupider!) I was OK for that night (though my blood sugar was not!) but Sunday was a disaster. I was STARVING hungry. Real, physical, painful hunger. My blood sugar had plummeted and I had the shakes. I had some scrambled egg with a slice of bacon which would normally be more than sufficient but I was still hungry just an hour later. I ate (on plan, more or less) all day Sunday. I was irritable, poor SO could do no right. I tried to be reasonable and explain what was happening but ended up in tears. It is now Tuesday. I am STILL hungry despite eating strict keto since Saturday night. I had bacon and egg this am, when normally I eat once per day. I am wanting to make a lunch but can resist that till later. I had almost forgotten the sugar spiral that happens when you cheat on this way of eating. I probably won't forget this in a hurry.


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## Bellyman

newfieannie said:


> so what do all of you use as an alternative to bread,buns,crackers etc. all that good tasting stuff we use to eat. my cravings are gone but I still think about a slice once in awhile. I use to spread mine with butter and peanut butter. we can still have butter and pb as far as I can see but what do we spread it on that we are allowed to have. ~Georgia


Here's one bread recipe I've been wanting to try...






For a little quickie type bun, here's one I've wanted to try...

https://www.lowcarbspark.com/how-to-make-90-seconds-keto-bread-low-carb-grain-free/

For crackers, here's an idea...

https://www.ditchthecarbs.com/fathead-crackers/


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## newfieannie

wow! I have to try these recipes! . looks like bread .I don't have the almond or coconut flour or some other things. bulk store probably has it. it will probably take me a few tries to perfect it. ~Georgia


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## Bellyman

Actually, I like coconut flour pancakes. I was never crazy about regular wheat flour pancakes, they always gave me an "icky" feeling after eating them. But I don't get that with coconut flour. It's a little tricky for baking but if you have a decent recipe, things can be really good. 

If you do Facebook, look up AllDayIDreamAboutFood. Carolyn Ketchum is really good with the goodies and has a couple of books out. Some are savory, some sweet. But she often has recipes on her Facebook page, sometimes several a day, sometimes her own, sometimes sharing from others like LowCarbYum, SugarFreeMom, IBreatheImHungry, and a few others.


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## newfieannie

no I don't do facebook. those of you who make the keto bread. do you make your own almond flour. I have a food processor and I might try that if I can't find the flour anywhere. it's not in my regular superstore. we do have a large bulk store 10 min away that carries quite a bit. i know they have potato flour. i'll try that tomorrow when I'm finished my taxes. ~Georgia


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## Bellyman

I usually get my almond flour at the local Walmart. It usually has coconut flour, too, but the local Kroger has a better price here. I've gotten almond flour at Amazon, too, exactly the same price as Walmart. 

Bulk stores might have what you want. Bob's Red Mill is a fairly popular brand that's pretty widely available but also a bit pricey, often stores will carry their almond meal/flour. 

FWIW, I haven't found much difference between the blanched and unblanched almond flour. The "blanched" just has the outer skin removed before grinding. I'm not sure how much nutritive value is in the brown skin but it doesn't really seem to matter for baking. 

You may not have Facebook but you're online, or you wouldn't be reading this.  You can still search out those sites I mentioned earlier. I think they all have a website and all post recipes. 

Good luck!


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## barnbilder

iHerb and vitacost can get you most any kind of alternative flour shipped to your doorstep.


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## MoonRiver

I make muffins that could easily be paleo. The simplest recipe is just flax meal, a little baking powder, and an egg (water or milk/cream as needed). Mix and either bake in oven or put in cup and microwave for 1 or 2 minutes (depending on your microwave). From that, add whatever is in your diet - blueberries and walnuts are good. I usually do about 1/2 flax and 1/2 old fashioned oats or steel cut oats. Sometimes I use oat bran. You can use any kind of paleo flour - coconut, almond, etc.

You can also make pancakes with the same recipe. Sometimes I add stevia and sometimes not. If salt is OK for you, maybe add a dash of salt. Flax will smoke if cooked at too high a temperature, so be careful when making pancakes.

Warning: Flax doesn't cause me a problem, but eating 2 or 3 pancakes is a LOT of fiber. Be warned it can cause stomach upset, cramping, and a quick trip to the bathroom for those not used to fiber. Start out with just a muffin and maybe use a smaller amount of flax and more almond or coconut flour.


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## MoonRiver

I have recently read some information that confirms what I think may have happened to me when I did paleo. I'll just jump to the end of the story.

I lost 50 lbs on Paleo, but I needed to lose at least 100. I stalled at 50 lbs and nothing I did could get me lower without having the nastiest cravings you can imagine. I tired more carbs, less carbs, no carbs, more fat, less fat, etc, etc, etc. I was also working with a good doctor who couldn't figure out what was happening.

Toward the end of my Paleo adventure, I was eating almost no carbs. I was eating less than 2000 calories a day of just protein and fat and couldn't get my weight below 270 lbs by more than a few lbs. I had to get down to 1200 calories a day or less to see any weight loss, but that just destroyed my energy level even more. If I got off the diet I gained back to 300 lbs almost overnight. I could easily gain 15 lbs in a week.

Why? (This is the important part). I believe what happened and I have read a Paleo expert saying the same, that what can happen if you go for long periods without eating your vegetables and fruit is you lessen your body's ability to make digestive enzymes and stomach acid, which are made from plant enzymes. This also happens because of disease as well as just getting older, so if you are older, have an underlying disease, or cut out vegetables, you probably need to be taking betaine hcl (stomach acid) and digestive enzymes.

So it is very important to keep eating your greens especially, but all low carb fruits and vegetables to keep producing stomach acid and digestive enzymes. While going no carb or extremely low carb may help you lose a few more lbs, if you do it long term it can have catastrophic consequences.


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## oneraddad

You guys talk a lot about eating but not much about what you do afterwards. Do any of you go for a walk or do some type of exercise after a meal ? 

I find the more active I am the less I weigh


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## barnbilder

oneraddad said:


> You guys talk a lot about eating but not much about what you do afterwards. Do any of you go for a walk or do some type of exercise after a meal ?
> 
> I find the more active I am the less I weigh


If everyone exercised instead of obsessing over food there wouldn't be many overweight people.


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## painterswife

It is so helpful to bring in a discussion on exercise to a discussion about diet. Thanks for the input boys, we never considered exercising.


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## Bellyman

Exercise is good, no question about that. But something I've heard, and that I believe, is that you can't exercise your way out of a bad diet. You can bust your but for a good solid hour and then, one doughnut later, you've put in more energy than you took out by all of that exercise. 

I'll repeat, though, exercise is a good thing.


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## oneraddad

When I found out I was diabetic I took some classes and exercise was a part of the plan. I got a bunch of test strips from the VA and experimented with them, a lot. I found I could eat a carb and go out and walk off it's effects. I don't hear you guys talking about that, instead it's about changing recipes. Why not just eat the carb and take a walk afterwards instead of eating the fake stuff, I'm just asking.


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## painterswife

oneraddad said:


> When I found out I was diabetic I took some classes and exercise was a part of the plan. I got a bunch of test strips from the VA and experimented with them, a lot. I found I could eat a carb and go out and walk off it's effects. I don't hear you guys talking about that, instead it's about changing recipes. Why not just eat the carb and take a walk afterwards instead of eating the fake stuff, I'm just asking.


First of all , what fake stuff are people eating?


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## Terri

oneraddad said:


> When I found out I was diabetic I took some classes and exercise was a part of the plan. I got a bunch of test strips from the VA and experimented with them, a lot. I found I could eat a carb and go out and walk off it's effects. I don't hear you guys talking about that, instead it's about changing recipes. Why not just eat the carb and take a walk afterwards instead of eating the fake stuff, I'm just asking.


Oh, I GOT that lecture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I put in a bigger garden.

Because I am handicapped and my ability to exercise is limited, I decided to not waste my energy but to use my energy by doing something cool! Like gardening. I probably "exercise" (AKA known as play) for half an hour a day.

And you are right: exercise helps me keep my blood sugar steady and my weight down! So I garden, go fishing, mow the yard once a week, etc. For me it is diet PLUS exercise. And you are right: when I come here I do tend to discus the diet but not the exercise.


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## oneraddad

If that's what you took from what I said, you just want to argue.


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## painterswife

oneraddad said:


> If that's what you took from what I said, you just want to argue.


I am still interested in your answer. This is a discussion on eating Keto, carbs and fasting.


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## oneraddad

Why substitute fake carb recipes for a recipe that contains carbs ?

Why make something that tastes like the carb you carve instead of just eating the carb and walking it off ?


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## Terri

I think that


oneraddad said:


> Why substitute fake carb recipes for a recipe that contains carbs ?
> 
> Why make something that tastes like the carb you carve instead of just eating the carb and walking it off ?


I think that most of us already do, excepting those that want to go into ketosis.


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## painterswife

oneraddad said:


> Why substitute fake carb recipes for a recipe that contains carbs ?
> 
> Why make something that tastes like the carb you carve instead of just eating the carb and walking it off ?


Insulin levels.

I have responsibilities and I can only exercise so much in a day. By reduced my carb load I reduce insulin spikes and cravings. I also feel much better burning fat than carbs. I have less pain, I sleep better and my mind is clearer. Weight loss or control is only one part of the equation. So I make my bread out of nut flour instead of wheat flour and add in some fiber. I also hope I will have less likelihood of cancer. That runs in the family and I can see a direct line from the change in my parents and grandparents diets to when they got cancer.

I spent years eating what I wanted and exercising lots. I find that the results were not that great in the end. The bad diet caught up with me. I am hoping to change that.


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## MoonRiver

It takes 25 - 35 miles to lose 1 lb, depending on weight, so the exercise itself is not burning hardly any calories.

By exercising right after eating, your muscles are burning some of the glucose you just ate in form of carbs, probably resulting in a lowering of your blood glucose and maybe insulin levels. Lowering these makes it easier to burn fat. (At least that's my best guess.)


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## Dayweaver

What a lot of people think of when a Keto diet is mentioned is a diet with lots of meat and fat and little or no veggies. But that is not correct. Keto is not a high protein diet--it's a moderate protein diet. When carbs are limited something needs to take its place. So that is where the fat comes in---and only enough to make you satisfied--eating too much fat will stall weight loss ---(if that's your purpose in starting this diet)-- because, calories ultimately do count, even with the hormonal influences and other factors counted in.

In addition to higher fat intake (more on that later), we need to eat more low carb veggies, especially things like leafy greens. Dr. Berg ( on youtube) promotes a version of keto with lots of leafy greens (up to 7 cups a day). 
I have never been able to eat that much, but listening to his videos and another youtuber called Thomas Delauer has impressed on me how important it is to eat more leafy greens and cruciferous veggies and not increase my protein intake to compensate for less carbs in my diet. I do eat berries occasionally too, as long as I keep my total carbs for the day within my limit.

What I've also learned about the "High fat" part of the LCHF diet (Keto diet) is that, yes, we need to eat enough fat to satisfy our hunger so we can also go from one meal to the next without snacking. But after we've become keto-adapted, which is to say, our body is now in fat burning mode and no longer in carb burning mode----(which will take a few weeks, more or less)-- we will find that we don't need to eat as much fat in our diet to satisfy our hunger because now the fat is being "drawn" from the fat stored in our bodies instead. 

I have been on this diet/way of eating for over a year now and although I've only lost 40 pounds, I have had so many other health benefits that I am extremely pleased! ( Health benefits like lower triglycerides, lower cholesterol, better LDL, HDL ratio, lower fasting glucose and lower A1C-- and to my surprise, much clearer thinking. My husband lost 65 pounds and had the same health benefits too.


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## newfieannie

I made a blunder this morning. I got half an avocado mashed with a little cream. then discovered a banana I had there. mashed that up with it. went right to town on it. ever good! then I got to thinking about the banana. was it good or bad on Keto? found out it wasn't. probably pushed myself right out of ketosis. don't know how I'd know .I don't have the stuff that some of you have to measure with. I still feel alright. I may shoot myself later on tonight.

I just phoned the Bulk Barn because I didn't have time to go there once I finished filing my taxes. they have both the coconut flour and the almond and the zanthum gum whatever that is. some of the stuff for keto is calling for that. so I'm all set for ingredients for my bread. I think that is all I'm missing. something to slap a bit of peanut butter and butter on.

I got no trouble getting exercise. if there's a day where I can't get out I run up and downstairs 20 or 30 times. coming on now it will be gardening time. I tried on a pair of dress pants last night that were too tight for months and they slid on so easily. that's only after a month but I dont want to lose a lot of weight. maybe 5 lbs. ~Georgia


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## oneraddad

MoonRiver said:


> It takes 25 - 35 miles to lose 1 lb, depending on weight, so the exercise itself is not burning hardly any calories.
> 
> By exercising right after eating, your muscles are burning some of the glucose you just ate in form of carbs, probably resulting in a lowering of your blood glucose and maybe insulin levels. Lowering these makes it easier to burn fat. (At least that's my best guess.)



I'm surprised someone as smart as you is still fat, since you have all the answers.


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## Clem

Most lost fat is breathed out at night. True fact.


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## Terri

oneraddad said:


> I'm surprised someone as smart as you is still fat, since you have all the answers.


I am surprised you are fussin' at people who have decided to lose weight! Someone who did not know you would think that you disapproved of people who decided to drop a few sizes!


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## Bellyman

newfieannie said:


> I got no trouble getting exercise. if there's a day where I can't get out I run up and downstairs 20 or 30 times. *coming on now it will be gardening time*.


Yes!! We just moved to our place in November after 12 years living in an RV. I do not have a tractor. But I have a shovel. And gardening season is coming. So I am in the process of digging some beds. I'm on my 2nd of eight, 60' long, about 28" wide. Yup, I'm definitely getting some exercise! 

And in case that wasn't enough digging, I also planted a half dozen blueberry plants this morning. Glutton for punishment, maybe... LOL!! 

I do love spring. New life! Hope of good things to come! And if I happen to lose a little weight with the added exercise, that'll be OK, too. Not worried about it even a little bit.


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## MoonRiver

oneraddad said:


> I'm surprised someone as smart as you is still fat, since you have all the answers.


Maybe I would lose more if I insulted other posters.


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## barnbilder

Walking and puttering around in the garden are not likely to be part of a life changing exercise regimen. Progressive overload weight training not only burns calories, it builds muscle. "But it hurts". It's amazing what those tired achy old joints feel like when they get some guns holding them together. Muscle helps metabolism. Everybody is not going to look like the Arnoldnator, but there are people who win bodybuilding competitions that started extremely late in life. Anybody can improve what they have now. You don't need to be a body builder, you just need to increase muscle mass.


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## newfieannie

you're not just "puttering" around in a garden when you are using a pick and shovel and making raised beds. especially if you're starting from bare ground with stumps to pull and the like. that's the way I did all of mine before I could afford to buy everything to do my work with. it's still the way I do my city garden. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

just took a roast from the oven and I got all that lovely stuff for gravy. guess I can't use flour or cornstarch for thickening. carbs soon add up when we can only have 30 or so. I thought I would use heavy cream and reduce it. that would get it nice and thick. i make sauces like that but never done gravy.i wouldn't want to use too much and take away from the taste of the gravy. anyone else do this. if not what do you use?

i don't want anything to make it slimy. i can't stand slimy anything! I'd rather boil it down a bit and pour it on my veggies and meat the way it is. should i drain off some of the fat? ~Georgia


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## Terri

I seriously do not know, but I bet it would make a KILLER soup base!


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## Bellyman

A thought or two, for what they're worth...

Xanthan gum might be an option for thickening. It can be a little tricky to use as it can get lumpy and too much can make it a little slimy, I'm told. I've not tried to use it for gravy but use it in the occasional baked item.

You already mentioned cream, which can help thicken things. 

Another possibility that goes a little beyond cream might be cream cheese. 

You might even be able to reduce your drippings and liquids which would give them even more flavor. 

Just the things that come to mind.


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## Alice In TX/MO

I recommend The Obesity Code. The book explains switching your body from glucose burning to fat burning.


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## newfieannie

i went down and bought my ingredients for my bread (anything a person could want is in that bulk barn i'm sure) beat the whites, mixed up the other stuff in the food processor per the instructions. tried to fold it into the egg whites. way too thick so I had to more or less mash it. that wasn't working too good so I dumped it back into the bowl and used my egg beater.

it's definitely not going to rise good because the egg whites need to be folded not beat to a snot. we'll see what happens in 20 min or so. wish I still had my pigs in case I have to dump it because the ingredients are expensive. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the baking powder will work to let it rise a bit. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

here it is not as high as it should be but not flat as a pancake either. i'll let it rest a bit and then see if it'll hold together to put some butter and pb on it.


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## newfieannie

it slices beautifully! no falling apart as you can see. I took a close up so you could see the texture before I put butter on it. .it is not dense in the least even with my mistake. doesn't taste eggy either. I ate 2 slices with a nice cup of tea and some cheese .it is so good! I now got a substitute for bread.






















I didn't spread it with pb because I was doing testing and wanted to get the full flavor of the bread. i'll keep working to perfect it. but as it is now I can eat the whole thing.i'll try toasting it later see how that works. I bought coconut flour also so i'll try that next. ~Georgia


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## Bellyman

Thanks for the update! Looks really good, and that's a big compliment considering it's your first time making it. Bread can be rather fickle, even the real thing.


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## newfieannie

Thanks BM! still continuing with the experiments. I made an hamburger bun. using coconut flour. looks like a cup cake but that's what I baked it in .I forgot I had the proper hb pan. I haven't tried it because I want to use it tomorrow with some roast beef but it smells good and feels like a bun. i'll let you all know if it's a failure tomorrow. ~Georgia


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## reneedarley

MoonRiver said:


> Maybe I would lose more if I insulted other posters.


Nope, I read one uses more calories laughing than frowning.


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## newfieannie

wow these are so good! cheese buns! I found a recipe but adapted it to suit me. they are practically the same as the cheese buns I use to buy at the grocery store which were loaded with carbs . I used 3 T coconut flour and 4 eggs. 1 shallot minced, cheddar cheese, a few pickles.(patted up the juice with paper towels) that's all I can remember right now. I split them and spread with butter and 2 strips bacon.







they were as light as a feather. they are filling because of the eggs I guess so I could only eat half a bun I ran out of Avocado last night and no stores open on Easter here.but this will be plenty until supper time. ~Georgia


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## Alice In TX/MO

Need that recipe!


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## Dayweaver

newfieannie said:


> here it is not as high as it should be but not flat as a pancake either. i'll let it rest a bit and then see if it'll hold together to put some butter and pb on it.
> View attachment 65496


Could you post the recipe for that bread? I occasionally try new low carb recipes and that one looks good.


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## newfieannie

you could google cheese buns and you will likely find it. I just looked at many recipes and started in. as I said I used the ingredients I posted and 1/2 tsp baking powder.salt and pepper. it's only me so I had to try to bring it all down to the amts for one person and I had the devil of a time because I'm useless with converting grams and most of the recipes I find are in grams. if you use what I did it might not turn out the same and nobody wants to throw stuff away. I just put a bit of this and that until I get what I think will work and obviously this worked but you give 10 people the same recipe and it never turns out the same. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

I bought my son a whole bunch of easter eggs but he hasn't had a chance to drop by yet. did you know there are 28.5 grms carbs in that Cadbury cream bar? I want one so bad. I'm not graving it but it is Easter! still all I did was sniffed it a bit and put it all in a couple plastic bags. tied it up and put it in the bottom of the freezer and hope he'll drop by before I cave. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

I forgot all about the fact that I could eat my lovely chowder on the keto diet because I always use heavy cream and no flour for thickening and no potatoes anyway. that was so good! I read somewhere that Daikon radishes could be used in place of pot. might try them the next time. ~Georgia


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## barnbilder

newfieannie said:


> I bought my son a whole bunch of easter eggs but he hasn't had a chance to drop by yet. did you know there are 28.5 grms carbs in that Cadbury cream bar? I want one so bad. I'm not graving it but it is Easter! still all I did was sniffed it a bit and put it all in a couple plastic bags. tied it up and put it in the bottom of the freezer and hope he'll drop by before I cave. ~Georgia



What difference does it make how many grams of carbs are in it? Carbs are not bad, in terms of weight loss. Calories are what you need to look at. The nutritional information I can dig up on this cadbury cream bar seems to indicate that it has more calories from fat than from the dreaded carbohydrates. Both of those are what I would consider pointless calories. They would knock you out of getting enough protein. 

Most protein sources are hard to separate from fat. Meat, nuts, etc. come with a good bit of oil. With the caloric density of fat, you have to eliminate as much of it as possible from the diet, to leave room for the calories that you will pick up from the fat nested in your protein sources. If you are truly concerned with weight loss, you need to concern yourself with calories, and remember that a gram of fat has nine calories and a gram of carbs only has four. 

I look at fat and carb sources in terms of how much protein they will yield. A slice of the right kind of bread would have way more protein than some fat and sugar confection. Beans, way more protein, yes they have some carbs, but not like eating sugar, which has no protein, and not so packed with fat that it knocks me out of my protein requirements for the day. It is really hard work getting enough protein in a day and staying below caloric thresholds. Really easy to pick up way too many calories from fat.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Uh. You have the wrong thread. We are keto. Low carb. 

Google Dr Fung.


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## painterswife

This article says some interesting things. Still working through it.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/cutting-...il&utm_term=0_41db911777-600a50fe13-464426805

"Contrary to what most people believe, long-term weight loss is not simply about cutting a few calories here and there. Sure, it sounds like it works, but the bottom line is that it does not. This has been proven in countless studies and also the countless tears of unsuccessful dieters desperately counting their calories like Ebenezer Scrooge counting his pennies."


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## barnbilder

Long term weight loss comes from making changes to the body. Changes to the body are made through exercising and adding or subtracting calories from the diet. The most accurate and predictable way is by tracking every single calorie. And it's not like Ebeneezer Scrooge, nothing at all. It can be as simple as scanning a bar code and hitting a couple drop down menus. Never before has it been so easy to tailor your body, with the technology available to those willing to embrace it. But if you want to guess at it and eat from a list of "good" foods prescribed by the latest fad salesmen, enjoy being fat.


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## Terri

Barnbilder, there are ways to rev up your metabolism so that more calories are burned. That is what the article is about.


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## newfieannie

i don't know why people come in here and run down the paleo or Keto plan or whatever we all choose to be on. live and let live I say. let everybody do whatever they want to do and don't make derogatory comments about being fat and the like and the world will be a lot kinder and gentler place in which to live.~Georgia


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## painterswife

newfieannie said:


> i don't know why people come in here and run down the paleo or Keto plan or whatever we all choose to be on. live and let live I say. let everybody do whatever they want to do and don't make derogatory comments about being fat and the like and the world will be a lot kinder and gentler place in which to live.~Georgia


I agree. Start a thread on the diet of way of eating that you wish to discuss.


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## Danaus29

If simply cutting calories worked then I would have lost weight by simply cutting out the soft drinks and getting more exercise. The rest of my diet stayed the same. Instead I gained 10 pounds over the course of a year.


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## newfieannie

I think i'll experiment with a batch of brownies tonight. i'll just more or less tweak the recipe I have. substitute coconut flour etc. etc. may have to do a couple batches before I'm happy with it.

tomorrow when I get myself armed with all the ingredients I need I will try yeast bread. I don't know why some people assume they would starve on this "Plan" I'm finding plenty to eat and nothing I have to force down and I'm picky over my food but everything tastes good. I couldn't stomach avocado. never ate it before in my life but I found a way around it and I now eat it every day. ~Georgia


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## barnbilder

Danaus29 said:


> If simply cutting calories worked then I would have lost weight by simply cutting out the soft drinks and getting more exercise. The rest of my diet stayed the same. Instead I gained 10 pounds over the course of a year.


Simply cutting calories does work, and in fact it is one of only three ways that one can lose weight. Increasing caloric burn is another good method. Amputation works quicker than any other method but it's not for everyone.

The reason that cutting calories doesn't work for some people is that some people are disingenuous with themselves. It isn't is simple as cutting out soft drinks. If you cut out soft drinks altogether, after being used to them, it is likely that your body would cause you to fulfill cravings with other calorie sources.

So yes, you cut out soft drinks, you obviously didn't track macros, or else you would be off enjoying your buff abdominal muscles at a pool or tropical beach, not hanging out on a weight loss forum. So you ate bigger portions of everything else while craving sugar. Really what you would need to do is not cut out soda, you need to cut back on soda. And cheese, pizza, white bread, peanut butter and anything else that you might eat with a lot sugar and fat in it. (calorie dense) And probably eat a whole lot more beans, lentils, chicken, pork chops, rabbit and fish. By tracking, you can see where you are screwing up, and see results that are guaranteed to come, if you set your calories low enough. But yeah, replace soda with more M&Ms and when results don't come you can prove it didn't work and give up on the whole thing.

Some people are disingenuous with themselves over activity levels as well. They set calorie levels based on the belief that they are very active, when the reality is that they are more sedentary. What qualifies as exercise is another variable that allows people to make false assumptions. Some activities don't really burn as many calories as you think they would. Walking for instance. Unless it's uphill with added weight it isn't a lot more than breathing in and out. Any exercise is good though, it is more healthy to be an overweight person that exercises than a sedentary skinny person.

It all boils down to physics. The body is a fuel burning machine. Suggesting that you don't burn fat as a result of exercising and cutting calories is the same as suggesting that you have a car with a gas engine that never runs out of gas. If you have found a way to create fuel out of thin air I'm sure NASA would like to know about it.


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## newfieannie

here it is girls! a scrumptious dessert! I baked it like a cake instead of brownies and cut out a wedge and topped it with cream and a few nut crumbs. everything in it is keto friendly. when I start cheating on it I will give up altogether. I just added stuff until I got it the way I wanted. I could eat the whole thing .

I was going to make a chocolate sauce to go with it also but don't have a keto friendly one yet. then it could easily pass for a choc. torte! as far as I know there would be hardly any carbs. a couple for the cocoa.i put 1/2 coconut flour and 1/2 almond. for sweetener I used truvia. coconut milk and oil and eggs.I was going to use stevia but it leaves an awful taste in my mouth and I remembered I bought a bag of truvia on sale a couple months ago so I put in 2 T of that. you'd think by the taste I had real sugar in this.









people who want it sweeter could use more. just taste as you go. this was plenty sweet for me. I might go and get another piece because I'm not up to 30 carbs today yet. it's just so good! hard to believe it's low or no carb. ~Georgia


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Simply cutting calories does work, and in fact it is one of only three ways that one can lose weight. Increasing caloric burn is another good method. Amputation works quicker than any other method but it's not for everyone.
> 
> The reason that cutting calories doesn't work for some people is that some people are disingenuous with themselves. It isn't is simple as cutting out soft drinks. If you cut out soft drinks altogether, after being used to them, it is likely that your body would cause you to fulfill cravings with other calorie sources.
> 
> So yes, you cut out soft drinks, you obviously didn't track macros, or else you would be off enjoying your buff abdominal muscles at a pool or tropical beach, not hanging out on a weight loss forum. So you ate bigger portions of everything else while craving sugar. Really what you would need to do is not cut out soda, you need to cut back on soda. And cheese, pizza, white bread, peanut butter and anything else that you might eat with a lot sugar and fat in it. (calorie dense) And probably eat a whole lot more beans, lentils, chicken, pork chops, rabbit and fish. By tracking, you can see where you are screwing up, and see results that are guaranteed to come, if you set your calories low enough. But yeah, replace soda with more M&Ms and when results don't come you can prove it didn't work and give up on the whole thing.
> 
> Some people are disingenuous with themselves over activity levels as well. They set calorie levels based on the belief that they are very active, when the reality is that they are more sedentary. What qualifies as exercise is another variable that allows people to make false assumptions. Some activities don't really burn as many calories as you think they would. Walking for instance. Unless it's uphill with added weight it isn't a lot more than breathing in and out. Any exercise is good though, it is more healthy to be an overweight person that exercises than a sedentary skinny person.
> 
> It all boils down to physics. The body is a fuel burning machine. Suggesting that you don't burn fat as a result of exercising and cutting calories is the same as suggesting that you have a car with a gas engine that never runs out of gas. If you have found a way to create fuel out of thin air I'm sure NASA would like to know about it.


New challenge. Find a recent scientific study that backs this up.

Here's one reason it is wrong. Your mitochondria are where glucose and fats are turned into energy (ATP). For various reasons, everyone's mitochondria are not equally healthy and capable of making the conversion. Because of a gene variant, my mitochondria are not as efficient at converting fat to ATP as most people's mitochondria. Old people and sick people also have less efficient mitochondria.

This is just one example of where the calories in - calories out model fails. In this case it's because everyone ignores the efficiency of the engine that "burns" calories. Another example is fake food. You can burn it, so you can get a calorie count for it, but our bodies don't know what to do with it, so it either gets excreted or stored in fat.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Increasing caloric burn is another good method.


This is what people have been trying to tell you. Increase the caloric burn.

To over simplify: If a person has 1200 calories of sugar cubes once a day their energy level may or may not stay up. If a person eats 1200 calories of the paleo diet once a day their energy level tends to stay up much better than if the person ate 1200 calories of sugar cubes once a day. The person on the Paleo diet will often be less hungry, more energetic, and get more work done.

it is spring and we are homesteaders. The people on the Paleo diet are heading out to do their work without being bothered by hunger, cravings, or lack of energy. They are pleased and are also losing weight. And, while there is a little more to it than that, I am happy for those who are comfortable on the Paleo diet. I do not feel well on it, but I am happy for those who do.

People on the Paleo diet also say that they burn fat instead of carbs. OK. I am not going to debate this. I do not know enough to debate this. I will say that those who stay on it usually lose weight. That is great!


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## Danaus29

barnbuilder, you are wrong. I didn't increase consumption of candy, junk food, or anything except water. Activity levels did increase. 

And the only reason I'm hanging out on a weight loss forum is it's winter so not much to do outside, I'm still not fully recovered from a recent surgery, and I would like to lose the 10 pounds I gained a few years back. Also I don't want to gain any more weight while I am in recovery and on limited activity.

BTW, according to everything published anywhere, I should have no teeth left because of how much pop I drank. I still have 28 teeth and most of the cavities were from before I was drinking pop in large quantities. I also should have eggshell thin bones which I do not.


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## Skamp

Danaus29 said:


> barnbuilder, you are wrong. I didn't increase consumption of candy, junk food, or anything except water. Activity levels did increase.
> 
> And the only reason I'm hanging out on a weight loss forum is it's winter so not much to do outside, I'm still not fully recovered from a recent surgery, and I would like to lose the 10 pounds I gained a few years back. Also I don't want to gain any more weight while I am in recovery and on limited activity.
> 
> BTW, according to everything published anywhere, I should have no teeth left because of how much pop I drank. I still have 28 teeth and most of the cavities were from before I was drinking pop in large quantities. I also should have eggshell thin bones which I do not.


Lol. Barn builder has a good case, based on the evidence. You have quite a few variables.


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## Danaus29

Skamp said:


> Lol. Barn builder has a good case, based on the evidence. You have quite a few variables.


I gained the weight about 5 years ago. I cut back on the pop and increased the activity at that time. Spent a year trying to lose that weight. Gave up after that year. It's been pretty stable since.


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## roadless

I just finished doing the Whole 30.
I lost just about 8 lbs in 30 days and I am not very big to begin with.
No sugar, processed foods, dairy or legumes, or grains.
I have a lot of energy and feel great....(except a stupid back thing that happened two days ago.)
I believe I will continue to eat this way.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Keto and IF is working for me.


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## Nsoitgoes

newfieannie said:


> just took a roast from the oven and I got all that lovely stuff for gravy. guess I can't use flour or cornstarch for thickening. carbs soon add up when we can only have 30 or so. I thought I would use heavy cream and reduce it. that would get it nice and thick. i make sauces like that but never done gravy.i wouldn't want to use too much and take away from the taste of the gravy. anyone else do this. if not what do you use?
> 
> i don't want anything to make it slimy. i can't stand slimy anything! I'd rather boil it down a bit and pour it on my veggies and meat the way it is. should i drain off some of the fat? ~Georgia


That is exactly what I do. And I never drain the fat.


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## newfieannie

i came in early to tell anyone that's planning to make that dessert. Don't use Truvia! its no calories not no carbs! some of you probably know it. I found it out when I was so restless last night and feeling so miserable I got up to check.2 grms to 1/2tsp! sure that's as bad as sugar! no wonder it was priced from 9 dollars a bag to 2.

I dumped that and the rest of the cake. i knew there was something wrong and i was doing so well and sleeping all night for the first time in years. i'll get back to it quickly though. i just had 1/2 Avocado and a bit of cottage cheese and a coffee with 2 T cream. then I'm going to fast the rest of the day or longer along with my exercise.

i'll make my cake again because it was lovely but i'll use something else for the sweetener. I'm heading to WM when it opens up and get that tester that MR mentioned. go for it Roadless!~Georgia


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## roadless

Thanks Georgia!
The hardest part was drinking my morning coffee black, with no sugar. Ugh.
This meal plan has me enjoying cooking again, which hasen't happened since my divorce. 
Now I am supposed to slowly add other foods to see how my body reacts.
I admit I am hesitant to do so because I feel so good now.


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## newfieannie

do you have some problem Roadless where you can't have heavy cream because that's what several of us use here for our coffee . Nsoitgoes for one. i think a couple more. i couldn't drink coffee black so i was happy to find we could have the heavy cream. no problem with black tea. ~Georgia


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## roadless

During whole 30 dairy was omitted. I can add it back now , it was more the sweetener that I miss.
Although it's amazing how sweet fruits and some vegetables are to me since I haven't had any sugar in a month.


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## newfieannie

that's what i missed also but i found the cream made up for it. what's whole 30?


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## newfieannie

ok I see you explained it in post 182


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## barnbilder

Milk in your coffee will give you 9 calories per TBSP, heavy cream gives you 51 per TBSP. "I feel so much more satisfied on the keto diet"! I bet you do.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Milk in your coffee will give you 9 calories per TBSP, heavy cream gives you 51 per TBSP. "I feel so much more satisfied on the keto diet"! I bet you do.


I get you don't agree or even understand why this way of eating works. I won't even try to explain it to you again. I would appreciate it if you stop spreading your negativity and snide remarks in this thread.


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## Bellyman

newfieannie said:


> i came in early to tell anyone that's planning to make that dessert. Don't use Truvia! its no calories not no carbs! some of you probably know it. I found it out when I was so restless last night and feeling so miserable I got up to check.2 grms to 1/2tsp! sure that's as bad as sugar! no wonder it was priced from 9 dollars a bag to 2.
> 
> I dumped that and the rest of the cake. i knew there was something wrong and i was doing so well and sleeping all night for the first time in years. i'll get back to it quickly though. i just had 1/2 Avocado and a bit of cottage cheese and a coffee with 2 T cream. then I'm going to fast the rest of the day or longer along with my exercise.
> 
> i'll make my cake again because it was lovely but i'll use something else for the sweetener. I'm heading to WM when it opens up and get that tester that MR mentioned. go for it Roadless!~Georgia


Oh, no. I'm so sorry.  I hate it when stuff like this happens.

Truvia is one of those products that don't seem to have much continuity from one product to another. I do use one of their products but am very careful to not assume that because the one product has ingredients that are pretty much zero carb and zero sugar doesn't mean that all of their products are zero carb and zero sugar. 

There are some products (don't remember the name brands) that are actually just plain ol' sugar mixed with an artificial sweetener of some kind. Uuggghh!!!


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## newfieannie

I bought a bottle of Avocado oil today. I don't imagine i'll buy too many more bottles at 16dollars but I thought I would pick this up and try it. supposed to be really good stuff.well, we do know the avocados themselves are don't we. I fried my hamburger in it.you can use it in salad dressing etc. I took a tsp raw. I eat very little red meat so I thought it would help for the fat I need on Keto. ~Georgia


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## painterswife

newfieannie said:


> I bought a bottle of Avocado oil today. I don't imagine i'll buy too many more bottles at 16dollars but I thought I would pick this up and try it. supposed to be really good stuff.well, we do know the avocados themselves are don't we. I fried my hamburger in it.you can use it in salad dressing etc. I took a tsp raw. I eat very little red meat so I thought it would help for the fat I need on Keto. ~Georgia


I use it to make mayo.


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## MoonRiver

It can take high heat so it can be used for frying.

I use either stevia or Just Like Sugar, which is primarily inulin fiber made from chicory root and is a prebiotic.


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## barnbilder

painterswife said:


> I get you don't agree or even understand why this way of eating works. I won't even try to explain it to you again. I would appreciate it if you stop spreading your negativity and snide remarks in this thread.


Boy, they aren't kidding about the irritability.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Boy, they aren't kidding about the irritability.


You think that was irritability? I asked nicely. I did not try to force my opinion on someone that seems bent on telling those trying to use keto to improve their health how wrong they are. Seems to me you are tho one with a bee in your bonnet.


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## newfieannie

don't feed it folks and it might just decide to return to it's pod. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

MoonRiver said:


> It can take high heat so it can be used for frying.
> 
> I use either stevia or Just Like Sugar, which is primarily inulin fiber made from chicory root and is a prebiotic.


I haven't seen any Just Like Sugar around here MR but I tried stevia and I'm left with an awful metallic taste in my mouth.


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## Terri

Folks, there are many, MANY weight loss diets out there. That is NOT a good reason to get snippy with each other! While everybody is entitled to voice their opinion, nobody gets to demand that everybody else stop doing what works for them.

There will be no more snark, or I will edit.


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## vicki in NW OH

newfieannie said:


> I haven't seen any Just Like Sugar around here MR but I tried stevia and I'm left with an awful metallic taste in my mouth.


I use Swerve (an erythritol sweetener) in most things. Sometimes if you mix Swerve and stevia it will take care of the aftertaste. I use both in greek yogurt smoothies. Certain brands of Stevia are better than others. Some Stevia is cut with other sweeteners that aren't good to use. Swerve comes in both granular and powdered. I use the powdered because that is all that I can find sold in my area.


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## Bellyman

newfieannie said:


> I bought a bottle of Avocado oil today. I don't imagine i'll buy too many more bottles at 16dollars but I thought I would pick this up and try it. supposed to be really good stuff.well, we do know the avocados themselves are don't we. I fried my hamburger in it.you can use it in salad dressing etc. I took a tsp raw. I eat very little red meat so I thought it would help for the fat I need on Keto. ~Georgia


It is pretty expensive stuff. Have to admit that. Found a pretty decent sized bottle of it at Walmart a while back for maybe $11 or so that I'm still working on. Went to get some more last week and the bottles like I have weren't there. But there was another one that was still around $11 only a little smaller. I imagine it does vary in price by location. But here, it's not much more expensive than a decent olive oil, which is the other oil that I keep on hand. Well, I do have some "coconut oil" but that's more like a solid than an oil until it gets warmed up a little. 

I've been wanting to try making my own mayo for some time now. Somehow, I just never get around to it. I need to. I have everything I need, including the immersion blender.


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## newfieannie

so I made the same buns today that is on post #160. someone wanted the recipe but it's hit or miss with me so I did keep track of it today. I took 1/4 c. butter melted. mix with 2T coconut flour rounded. that doesn't seem like much but coconut flour just gobbles up the liquid. it worked for me anyway. 1/2 tsp baking powder. I mixed that with the flour before I added the butter cooled a bit.then I added 4 eggs one at a time. beat that.( this might work good with almond flour also. i'll try that next and let you know.)

in the meantime I sautéed a small shallot (you can use onion. I only cook with shallots)and a little green pepper chopped in a bit of butter . I meant to use red pepper also and some garlic but I forgot. by this time that will be warm(not hot) dump it in the mixture along with 1/2 cup shredded cheddar. you can use other cheese. I only like cheddar. salt and pepper to taste or other seasonings. pour it in pans. you can see the pans I use. they worked perfectly but that was what I had. you will think it's too thin but if you add more coconut flour it will be too dry when baked.. bake 15 min at 350. (I put a little circle of parchment in bottom of pans) I always use a sheet of foil on bottom grate because I don't like stuff too brown on the bottom)

I put them in the oven. came down here and started reading stuff trying to catch up and forgot them. they were in at least 25 minutes. way too long because they aren't as high. but still so good. they are better left a couple hours but I cut these immediately and ate with a couple strips of bacon. i just use them open faced not 2 slices of bun together(they are too filling) I get 3 slices from that one bun. did the same with a hamburger patty couple days ago just so good! on the other hand I hadn't eaten since yesterday. enjoy! ~Georgia


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## Skamp

Terri said:


> ..........There will be no more snark, or I will edit.


But, there will be many, many posts on the outside of the bell curve. Those posts will not be given the weight of standard deviation, they seem to be heavily weighted.

The thread title included “carbs”, why can’t that be discussed as if it’s not an evil?

Snark, as taken, may just be honest observation.


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## Skamp

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I have no one to talk to about the research I have been doing, so I will post here.
> 
> I am reading about Keto and fasting, diabetes and carbs, and on and on.
> 
> Mom had Type II diabetes, and the friend I am living with while I build a new house is diabetic also.
> 
> I have put on 25 pounds due to a variety of reasons. Stress eating, a couple of beers each evening, reduced activity, etc.
> 
> The new info is that carbs are killing us. My friend doesn’t want to listen.
> 
> I am dabbling with Keto and intermittent fasting.


Carbs are a tool, just as fat, protein, and the micros are. 

The variety of weight gain, for multiple reasons, how can you expect an answer?

Carbs when you burn, if you do. (Is that snark?). Protein and fat otherwise.


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## newfieannie

no wonder Macadamia nuts are 35dollars a lb. the tree takes 7 to 10 years to produce nuts. much different from other more common nuts. I didn't pick up any but I might next time. grind them and mix a T or so with some cottage cheese, hemp hearts etc. ~Georgia


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## Skamp

(Content deleted*)


*Content deleted due to hiss n' spit. 4-6-18 9:42 PM


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## painterswife

Skamp said:


> Carbs are a tool, just as fat, protein, and the micros are.
> 
> The variety of weight gain, for multiple reasons, how can you expect an answer?
> 
> Carbs when you burn, if you do. (Is that snark?). Protein and fat otherwise.


You don't need carbs. You can live on protein and fat. That's is why your body stores fat not carbs. Carbs mess with your insulin and hormones.


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## Skamp

painterswife said:


> You don't need carbs. You can live on protein and fat. That's is why your body stores fat not carbs. Carbs mess with your insulin and hormones.


You’ve never been afield with me.


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## Skamp

painterswife said:


> You don't need carbs. You can live on protein and fat. That's is why your body stores fat not carbs. Carbs mess with your insulin and hormones.


I don’t have the fat reserve, I do have the protein reserve, but don’t want to waste it.


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## Skamp

Is their a body fat prcentange that Keto is recommended?


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## painterswife

Skamp said:


> I don’t have the fat reserve, I do have the protein reserve, but don’t want to waste it.


Then you don't need to lose weight. Eating a ketogenic diet would only be for health. You could eat a higher amount of carbs and still be on ketosis.


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## painterswife

Skamp said:


> Is their a body fat prcentange that Keto is recommended?


There is not. A ketogenic diet is where you are using ketones for fuel. Either body fat if you have extra or dietary fat if you don't.


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## Skamp

painterswife said:


> Then you don't need to lose weight. Eating a ketogenic diet would only be for health. You could eat a higher amount of carbs and still be on ketosis.


What is the perceived benifits of ketogenics at a healthy weight?


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## painterswife

Skamp said:


> What is the perceived benifits of ketogenics at a healthy weight?


https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/ketosis

https://ketoschool.com/the-43-healt...eting-in-addition-to-weight-loss-1e4ee4743f1f

https://www.ruled.me/benefits-ketogenic-diet/


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## painterswife

For me, eating ketogenic reduces inflammation. Therefore lower blood pressure, less pain that comes with getting older and clearer thinking. Carbs make me feel crappy.


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## Skamp

(Content deleted*)


*Content deleted due to hiss n' spit. 4-6-18 9:42 PM


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## Irish Pixie

Skamp said:


> I really appreciate the links, but they are junk, at best.


And that's your opinion, correct? The diet is working for painterswife and a host of other members.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Skamp, I was expecting conversation. 

For research based reading, I recommend Dr. Fung’s book, The Obesity Code.


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## painterswife

Irish Pixie said:


> And that's your opinion, correct? The diet is working for painterswife and a host of other members.


It doesn't really matter what at his or her opinion is. He has not researched it or lived it. I interact daily with many that have no longer have to take diabetes medicines or blood pressure medicine are statins Etc. It is a wonderful thing to see the ketogenic diet can do for so many.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Research -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/7/1879/4687418


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## Skamp

(Content deleted*)


*Content deleted due to hiss n' spit. 4-6-18 9:42 PM


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## Alice In TX/MO

Skamp, you have some reading to do about the science.

Meta analysis of research-
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...lled-trials/6FD9F975BAFF1D46F84C8BA9CE860783#


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## Skamp

(Content deleted*)

Deleted content* exceeds civility limits in HT. Edited by Terri 4-6-18 8:37 PM


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## Irish Pixie

newfieannie said:


> don't feed it folks and it might just decide to return to it's pod. ~Georgia


This is fact.


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## Alice In TX/MO

The ketogenic diet has been around almost a century. It began as a treatment for childhood epilepsy. It is now being examined as a treatment for Alzheimers and Parkinson’s disease. 

Research-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/


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## Bellyman

I have appreciated those who want to have a reasonable conversation through this thread. We're not all exactly on the same page but we do share quite a lot. 

Those who want to belittle in an unkind and disrespectful manner kind of ruin the experience. Sorry. Took a few months off from this website a while back and am thinking it's time to do so again. Seeing the backsides of a few posters I won't bother naming is getting old.

You all take care.


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## MoonRiver

Alice In TX/MO said:


> The ketogenic diet has been around almost a century. It began as a treatment for childhood epilepsy. It is now being examined as a treatment for Alzheimers and Parkinson’s disease.
> 
> Research-
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/


And cancer.


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## newfieannie

still experimenting here. made cream cheese brownies today. all I did was tweak my regular recipe. used unsweetened choc. in place of sweetened. a little stevia for the sugar and coconut flour. no difference as far as I can see. they are equally delicious but I am probably use to the coconut flour by now. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

i was craving cheesecake today and I knew my old recipe was out what with close to a cup sugar and I didn't really want a full one so I came up with this. a handful ground pecans.







a few breadcrumbs from the almond buns. around 2T butter melted. I baked that for 5 min. then mixed up about a 1/4 block cream cheese.1 egg. 1 pk stevia.vanilla and lemon juice. baked that for 15 min. whipped up some cream for topping. I didn't have any berries today . it was so good anyway but a bit of fruit would just be the icing on the cake.i have plenty canned fruit in my preps but it's full of sugar. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

I went out to a meeting with some women from a church group yesterday whom I had met at a roast beef dinner. I made some cream cheese and cherry sandwiches to take, I love those but wasn't tempted to touch a one. the table there was loaded with food but nothing that I could eat. (everything loaded with sugar and most of them are diabetics).so I just had tea.

they have invited me for every Wednesday. next week I might make a couple of those cheesecakes in the above post just for me . I can't believe I had the will power to resist all that delicious looking food. the cream cheese sandwiches went like hotcakes which I knew they would ~Georgia


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## Danaus29

I always think it's so sad when diabetics refuse to change their diet. My grandfather had diabetes and didn't have to take medication for several years by making a few simple diet changes.

Your little cheesecakes look wonderful. I'll have to try them when my oven is working again.


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