# Do you have hardened shooting points in your house?



## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I had been playing with some 7.62x39 ammo in the FMJ variety, and some thoughts came to mind. Everyone is buying up .223's, russian ammo, .308's and other calibers of common rifles. if things turned bad, people may try to use these guns against you barricaided in your house -- to shoot you and your family to take your guns, food and preps. 

These FMJ's will shoot clean through most houses. If a family is barricaided in their home to protect themselves, I could pretty much take out everyone in the house no matter what room they were in. Sheetrock and pine 2x4's are no match for high powered rifle rounds. (a 2x4 in your wall WILL stop a .45 ball ammo slug -- I have the proof and the slug from a random drive by shooting on my house when I lived in a big city).

Do you have hardened shooting points in your home, or have created hardened protective areas to shoot from and protect you from outside shots ??. I remember on the Preppers show the family that was going to use their 2nd floor window to shoot from. Who were they kidding ?? One 7.62x39 round just below the window sill would have killed the shooter, and maybe wounded someone standing behind him as the bullet passed thru the preppers body.

I see the sheets of steel used on streets to cover construction areas, and have considered getting some of those to put on the inside of the house, under the window to shoot from behind. I already have plenty of cut firewood I can stack in front of lower level windows up to the window sill to act as a bullet barrier. Very few rounds will go thru a seasoned piece of oak lengthwise.I thought of making sand bags I can put on top of the firewood bullet barriers to help give me something to lay the gun across when returning fire. I also can put a stacked firewood barrier around the outside cement porch to help offer another layer of protection to the front door area that I can shoot from behind. Having lots of firewood wouldn't draw attention either.

Since most of us don't have a hardened bunker we live in, we need to make due with the house we have. I have been thinking about the hardened shooting points in a house for a long time, and I think this would make an interesting thread and maybe give me some other ideas. A few shots from just a .22 can shatter all your windows --- that would be a hard thing to take in the middle of winter here in the north. A roll or two of heavy mill plastic and tape might make a good prep item in case of broken glass .....
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

My cabin started life as a 8" concrete block (cells filled with concrete)storage building. In the process of cutting holes in it to install windows I gave the portion to be removed a quick test. I fired 20 rounds of .308 FMJ and 20 rounds of 5.56 SS109 armor piercing.

The 5.56 all stayed on the surface shell of the block. The twenty rounds of 308 dug through the outer shell and the inner concrete fill, and started to impact the inner shell. Twenty-five or so might finally have made it all the way through.

Both were concentrated fire on single spots under target paper.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

MichaelK! said:


> My cabin started life as a 8" concrete block (cells filled with concrete)storage building. In the process of cutting holes in it to install windows I gave the portion to be removed a quick test. I fired 20 rounds of .308 FMJ and 20 rounds of 5.56 SS109 armor piercing.
> 
> The 5.56 all stayed on the surface shell of the block. The twenty rounds of 308 dug through the outer shell and the inner concrete fill, and started to impact the inner shell. Twenty-five or so might finally have made it all the way through.
> 
> Both were concentrated fire on single spots under target paper.


If I remember correctly, you posted on this a good while back with some pics. 
Am I correct?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

If you're trapped in your house, you've probably already lost the fight


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I was thinking about adding thermal mass in the form of a 4 foot high 2x6 boxes screwed to the wall with ply wood and some decorative bead board paneling filled with sand and topped off with a shelf on a few walls , but i never got to it , and was planning on putting it close to the stove not the door 

the only things in my house that might count as cover , are the piano and wood stove , the wood stove just isn't that big to hide behind the piano is a little bigger and offers a cast iron back , but I would hope that it never came to needing cover from rifle rounds fired from outside , *because i can tell you wood is not a good stopper of bullets , they go right true logs 14 inches of log was not enough to stop a 30-30 light load , this ain't the movies folks


*window seats filled with sand bags would be a much better idea than cord wood 

If you can get the steel and you want to do it have at it


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Where I live the chance of getting into a firefight in my house with anybody is so remote that I don't even worry about it. More likely to be struck by lightning or have a stroke or something.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I thought about that also Hollowdweller. I'm 70 miles from the nearest big city. A full tank of gas will take a car more than 300 miles, and with 3 million desperate people living in Columbus Ohio ....they will all head for the hills .... That makes me 'in range' when all food, supplies and everything else runs out in the city. 
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm with BFF and hollowdweller... I too am in a hollow... If I am trapped in my house, things have already gotten so sideways, there's really no way out.. short of a tunnel out... 

I'd much rather be up on one of the hills overlooking my house... a lot more hiding spots, and no real way to become trapped, plus I have great vantage points over the only road in...


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

We built our new house using ICF construction; 8â poured concrete, sandwiched between 1.5â of insulating foam, then siding/stucco. So I guess weâre protected from drive-byâs barring anything with AP. The house has large casement windows though, so I suppose thatâs a weak point. 

Primarily built it for the energy efficiency, ballistic protection wasnât even a thought. Under the 3 car garage is a safe/room built with 8â reinforced poured concert with a fire resistant vault door thatâs under grade on 3 sides. Had it built that for tornados and thieving chuckleheads, again didnât give much thought to ballistic protection. 

Chuck


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I was thinking about adding thermal mass in the form of a 4 foot high 2x6 boxes screwed to the wall with ply wood and some decorative bead board paneling *filled with sand* and topped off with a shelf on a few walls , but i never got to it , and was planning on putting it close to the stove not the door


I've heard small *gravel* is better at stopping bullets than sand, and it's less likely to leak out if the container is punctured

6 inches should stop most rounds


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I thought about that also Hollowdweller. I'm 70 miles from the nearest big city. A full tank of gas will take a car more than 300 miles, and with 3 million desperate people living in Columbus Ohio ....they will all head for the hills .... That makes me 'in range' when all food, supplies and everything else runs out in the city.
> Ohio Rusty ><>



I think you are correct Rusty. None of us are out of range. No matter where you live, I think we are not immune to someone wanting what you have when they are cold, hungry, tired, etc.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've heard small *gravel* is better at stopping bullets than sand, and it's less likely to leak out if the container is punctured
> 
> 6 inches should stop most rounds



i think that needs a test , i see shooting bags of sand and gravel from 25 yards , in the future , i think i have some feed sacks i could shoot after filling


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

If someone takes the 4 miles of backroads to my house, over two of it being dirt road, then I figure they aren't very bright or they are some kinda badass.... They would have to get through a handfull of neighbors who all have the road right on their doorstep... If they got past them, then they are either REALLY lucky... or really tough... I'm at the end of a dead end... 

I'll never forget the first time we drove out to the place.. I thought we were driving right through the middle of people's land.. which you are... and they look out for strangers.. I was afraid of getting stopped and asked what we were doing on their land.

If'n I was a zombie, I would never find, or wish to find my place... It would be quite the effort to get there for someone that doesn't know the area. It would be taking your life into your hands....


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I thought about that also Hollowdweller. I'm 70 miles from the nearest big city. A full tank of gas will take a car more than 300 miles, and with 3 million desperate people living in Columbus Ohio ....they will all head for the hills .... That makes me 'in range' when all food, supplies and everything else runs out in the city.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


 
I wouldnt' worry. They are all to obese or lazy to head for the hills. 

Besides if society truly broke down we in the country would be going to the city to pillage stuff too. Ammo, tools, human slaves. We'd need to go to the city to get them all:gaptooth:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> i think that needs a test


I'm thinking I read it in the context of it being tested, but I can't remember where, and my SLOW dial up makes it hard to find things quickly sometimes

I'll keep looking though


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I see the sheets of steel used on streets to cover construction areas, and have considered getting some of those to put on the inside of the house, under the window to shoot from behind.


I thought about this a while back and wondered if metal roofing stacked layers in layers would work. It would be easier to handle. Don't have any idea about how many sheets it would take to stop a bullet from a high powered rifle.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Possum Belly said:


> I thought about this a while back and wondered if metal roofing stacked layers in layers would work. It would be easier to handle. Don't have any idea about how many sheets it would take to stop a bullet from a high powered rifle.


I've shot a 7.62x39 that when through the steel rim and bead of a tire on a car, out the back side of the wheel, into the wheel on the other side of the car, and back out and into a tree behind it from about 30 yards.. Shocked me... 

Now imagine what a 30-06 would do... I'd be interested to see how much it takes to stop one..


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## brownegg (Jan 5, 2006)

I really don't think making a bullet proof place makes any sense at all. If I really wanted to get to you...I'd simply burn your place down! You can't cover all sides at once, much less put the fire out without giving yourself up. You are over thinking the obvious.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

brownegg said:


> I really don't think making a bullet proof place makes any sense at all. If I really wanted to get to you...I'd simply burn your place down! You can't cover all sides at once, much less put the fire out without giving yourself up. You are over thinking the obvious.


In this possible scenario, someone may want your heated home, water, food, etc. If they burnt it they may end up with nothing.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Possum Belly said:


> In this possible scenario, someone may want your heated home, water, food, etc. If they burnt it they may end up with nothing.


But in the end, they still win... Our of quarters...


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

simi-steading said:


> But in the end, they still win... Our of quarters...


Then lay down and die. I will fight.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> In this possible scenario, someone may want your heated home, water, food, etc. If they burnt it they may end up with nothing.


Good points
The way I see it though, is if YOU can shoot OUT, I can shoot IN, and I will know exactly where you are.

If it were *my home*, I could defend it much better from outside than from inside, unless the house is in the middle of about 10 cleared acres with no cover at all


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I've got an attached cellar with 8" concrete walls, but I'd hate to be trapped in it. I don't see any vantage of being pinned in it. Time is against you. I really do not see any homes that are very defensible in such a scenario.

I'm with bearfoot, I could defend it much better outside of it than in, and especially with no one knowing where I was. I'm in the country which some of you aren't, still without a group for defense, I'd be toast if I was stuck in it.

It's nice to know your walls would probably stop a stray bullet though.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I still haven't found the gravel thing, but here's an enlightening test using sand:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

looking at the box o truth , and seeing that 9mm and 45 ball penetrated the farthest because the bullet held together , but neither made it farther than 6 inches in sand 

lower velocity often increases penetration , as it doesn't cause the bullets to disintegrate on impact


myth busters did a test a few years ago where they put a block of ballistic gel on a trolley and had a track set up to lower it into a swimming pool at a 30 degree angle , they started with slow rounds , in particular the patched round ball did well , while the faster the round , like 223 or 50bmg the bullets fragmented on the surface of the water and the ballistic jell was safe just a foot or two under water the block at a 30 degree angle under a foot of water the bullet actually had to pass thru almost 2 feet of water


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i found a reference to the gravel as taking 1 inch less gravel than sand to stop 223 or 308/30-06

shot a distance f 10 feet

http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=14384.0;wap2


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

My 1750's built house has 20 inch thick stone walls. So the only way for any bullet to enter is the doors and windows and the roof.. Would I call it "hardened" not really, but it will hold up longer than most homes..


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> taking 1 inch *less gravel* than sand to stop 223 or 308/30-06


It does seem logical gravel would be better at fragmentation of projectiles

I also imagine the figures given for the steel were with the target perpendicular to impact.

Angling the steel has the same effect as thickening the metal, as in the water example above

Suspending a sheet of steel so it could swing also would lessen penetration


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

My entire house is hardened to a degree considering all exterior walls are soil filled double wall concrete block walls 18 inches thick and the interior walls are single wall soil filled concrete blocks 8 to 9 inches thick.
If I have a shooting situation in my home I just have to use the doorways and hallways as killing funnels.

Use of closets as some home defense courses suggest would be useless as my closets are simply paneling on 2 by 4 frames.


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## spacecase0 (Jul 12, 2012)

when I use to live in the city I had sand bags set up on the street side of the house to get behind for when the drive by shootings happened, the gang members are not very accurate shooters... but now that I live in the middle of no where I have nothing set up.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I thought about that also Hollowdweller. I'm 70 miles from the nearest big city. A full tank of gas will take a car more than 300 miles, and with 3 million desperate people living in Columbus Ohio ....they will all head for the hills .... That makes me 'in range' when all food, supplies and everything else runs out in the city.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


Why do we rural folk tend to think that it's the "city" people who'll come marauding? It could easily be a desperate ~anyone~. Our ----y little church building's doorlock was jimmied a few days ago...whoever did that, entered and took AA, and AAA batteries! Yeah, probably kids...But, what'll they do the next time? Just a week ago someone dumped an active methlab on the side of the road just a few houses down from our place. These hills are crawling with the un-prepared and a very high unemployment rate...just let that gub $$ not show and I figure it'd be real ugly real quick. 

-scrt...also in SE Ohio.*I do have an old upright piano with a huge cast iron soundboard!!*


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

One of my prepper cousins built his home to withstand 50 caliber bullets. He has two, so knows what they can go through. Steel framed home, with angle iron bolted to the exterior foundation footing, 1/4" plate welded to that, 12" space filled with crushed rock, 4" slab wall, then a wide stack layer of exterior brick. Actually showed me some .308 'dents' in one corner where he'd practiced going through a layer of 6" stone (instead of brick). I think he's good to go.

I'm simply looking at 18" to 24" of granite, reinforced with steel and concrete on exterior walls, and a sandwich of plate, rock, and wood for safe rooms. 

Want to carry some of my granite chunks to see how they'd stand up to the 50 cal, next time I'm invited to go shooting (with the well funded cousin prepper)


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## HuskyBoris (Feb 14, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Good points
> The way I see it though, is if YOU can shoot OUT, I can shoot IN, and I will know exactly where you are.
> 
> If it were *my home*, I could defend it much better from outside than from inside, unless the house is in the middle of about 10 cleared acres with no cover at all


I'm screwed,but I will fight anyway,if I am going to die it's going to be on my terms,the only advantage I have is high ground,although it's open it has a 360 degree view and it's a 600 yard dash to cover (woods) through the least visible area,with warning I can make it ok with some baggage,if by taken by surprise I will get a few shots off before I get overrun,I guess it just depends on the situation and number of marauders,hope I never have to find out.


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