# My first LGD



## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

So my wife and I are just starting our homestead. We have about 2 acres of land and are in the planning phase of fencing the majority of that in with 5â welded wire/ chain link fence. In the not so distant future we are going to get a dog that will serve as livestock protection along with making my wife more comfortable at night when I am at work. I am kind of leaning toward a karakachan but I am not sure. It is me my wife my son and my mother in law that live on the property with us. We are all dog people and have had and trained several dogs. 
I was wondering if anyone has any input about the different live stock dogs and your reasons for choosing the ones that you have.
We live in central eastern coast, so we can go from 0 degrees in the winter to 100 degrees in the summer.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

kdalton324, What I'm hearing you say is you are "starting" off with a homestead of only two (2) acres and you're wanting an LGD to guard those and your family. This leads me to believe you will be expanding your acreage in years to come. What I'm about to say may sound harsh, though please know I don't mean it to be.

If all you have *right now* is those two (2) acres and you want a good guard dog for that and your family, I would suggest that you not...yes not...get an LGD at this time. Get a "family dog" that can serve as a playmate/companion for an LGD down the road. (Any powerful breed with healthy genetics will work fine for you right now.) Even if you and your family decide to get animals to care for, you would still not need an LGD at this time. (Livestock Guardian Dogs are not well suited to such small acreage, even the wonderful breed of Karakachan.)

If you read my thread on this breed, you will discover such a dog is not "trainable" in the traditional sense. What I learned from my Karakachan is that her "training" consisted of MY OWN LEARNING "not" to stifle her confidense and inherited genetics, which are different from other canines. A Karakachan does, however, have several needs all LGD breeds have, i.e. acreage large enough to patrol and run around within as well as another dog (any kind) to play with. Your little 2 acres is just too small to do justice to such a dog and, therefore, I doubt you would be happy with one. I know this sounds a bit harsh; yet it is better to get this information "before" getting an LGD rather than to find out about it later at the cost of having to rehome such a dog.

If you do get a regular "family" type dog rather an an LGD, know that dog *can be taught to guard livestock* and that dog *would be content to do so on a small acreage. *See below a picture of a German Shepherd, full blood with heavy prey drive. Notice how well she is protecting those baby goats. (A stranger was walking around with me so as to survey an area I was considering for excavation; and this GS was cautious about this stranger getting too near the goats...not aggressive...just cautious.) Such a dog would serve your purposes well and be happy and well adjusted with a small homestead seeing both the human family as well as animals as her charges. I might add here this dog also guarded my fowl which free-ranged all over.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

What livestock do you/are you planning to have? LGDs were bred to guard sheep and goats and will bond best with those animals. I have two Karakachans and am passionate about the breed but I wouldn't have them without the sheep. We also have Jersey cows and my male really likes the cows (and they him), however we do not have him guarding them as we don't have predators in our area that bother them.

Poultry are at huge risk of predation but be aware that LGDs do not typically bond with poultry. That is not to say they can't keep poultry safe - they do so because their nature is to keep predators off the property - but they will not actually bond to the poultry and in fact, most LGD puppies kill a chicken or three in puppy playfulness before they mature (which takes up to two years).

What has worked for us with the poultry is to have our two poultry-safe mutts - 40-ish pound dogs adopted from the local humane society - sleep in a dog igloo in the chicken yard at night. By day they are let out. They also are not bonded to the poultry but their presence deters would-be predators at night, and since their odor is present even by day, we haven't had issues with predators by day either.

It sounds like what you are looking for is more of a property/personal guardian than an LGD. Have you considered breeds like Rottweiler or Doberman? Those are breeds that are intelligent, loyal and bred more for personal protection, which may give your wife more peace of mind than asking a LGD to fill a role it was not bred to fill.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

Right now we are only going to have rabbits. It is in the short plan to get goats and maybe sheep in the future. The reason I am looking more into the traditional LGD breeds is that we live in an interesting area weather wise. There are many days in the summer months when we can get temperatures in the 90's and even up to 100. But the winter months can be harsh as well. This year alone we had several days with temperatures in the negatives before the wind chill. 
I am interested in how people train their first LGD/ property guard dog. Do they train it inside the house then migrate it outdoors, or set it up as a puppy outdoors in a smaller pen.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Both motdaugrnds and I have a thread devoted to exactly that topic  Motdaugrnds is called "Made my choice....A Bulgarian Karakachan" while mine is "Kilo the Karakachan", though I include my female after she arrived as well. The purpose of our threads is to journal their development from puppy to mature LGD. 

The simple answer to your question though.....my pups have never been indoors. They were born in a barn with sheep and upon moving here, slept in a dog run in the barn with the sheep and goats.

For the record our climate is perhaps similar to yours except that we call a summer day of 90 a cool change. Our summer days are typically triple digits with temps up to 110, while winter days in the single digits, and occasionally even below zero occur as well. These dogs are very well adapted, due to their double coats. A few mornings ago we had a frost and I was fascinated to see that my pups had frost on their coats, indicating that they are very well insulated. They will shed out their undercoat and the outer guard hairs will serve as a parasol to keep them cooler in the summer as well.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

As for cllimate: My summers are hot and humid and the winter temps can get under freezing. Every dog I've had here adapted well as all they needed was a good shade and plenty of "cool" water to play in. This Karakachan loves to cool off by placing her feet in kiddie pools during the hottest part of the days; and she "plays" out in the coldest parts of the winter.

As for being in the house: My Karakachan does NOT like to be indoors. She will come in only to investigate; then return to "live" outside. An LGD really needs to live out with its charges.

I hear you're wanting an LGD; however, I don't think such a dog would be as suited to your needs as any regular guard dog.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Oh - I wanted to add....my two poultry-safe mutts referenced earlier also live 100% outdoors. One is a black/lab border collie mix. The other is some kind of cattle dog mix as best we can tell. They have shelter - a dog igloo placed in the chicken yard. They also have a dog door into our garage to access their food and water, since anywhere we put it outside, the free-ranging poultry would get into it. However aside from time spent in the garage eating, they are outside all the time.

Dogs adapt really well. They grow in a thick winter coat when needed and shed it out in the summer. As long as they have a place to get out of wind and precipitation, and have access to shade in summer, they'll do fine. What you don't want to do is bring them in when you think its too cold or hot as that messes with their adaptation. (For the same reason we keep our house cool in winter and warm in summer. Since I am going in and out all day, it is too hard for me to adapt to the changing temps if I'm going from an icebox in summer to triple digits outside multiple times (and vice versa for winter). By keeping our thermostat set at 85 in summer, it doesn't hurt so much to go outside and work, and it doesn't shock my system when I do come back indoors either.)


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You need a good family dog that will guard the property. You will have to train the dog to leave the rabbits alone. I like a Dobermann, but you cannot treat them as an outside only dog, they were bred to be people oriented. A bouvier might suit your needs. They were bred as herding dogs and make excellent guard dogs. They have more sense than most guard dogs. You can sometimes find one with a terrier coat, with a long coat you would probably keep him clipped and brushed, but they are well worth the effort. They do not have the energy level of the collie type herders.

If you just want something to bark at trespassers to keep them away, almost any dog that will bark will work. Yorkshire terriers are excellent guard dogs, but not really predator proof. Don&#8217;t get any kind of dog that wants to follow a scent to kingdom come, such as beagle or other hound. A dog that protects your yard is protecting your rabbits. Some dogs you will not be able to keep from killing the rabbits (husky)


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

I was a professional dog trainer for 20+ years before moving to the ozarks....I raise Nubians on a little over 20 acres of deep woods and a couple meadow areas...we have tons of coyotes, black bear..even the occasional cougar....but it's stray dogs that are my biggest fear....Our first 10 years here, we used a brother /sister pair (spayed/neutered) of pyrs. .... As they aged..I added another brother /sister pair...this time karakachans...also spayed/neutered. We have suffered zero losses with the dogs on duty.

VERY noticeable breed differences... The prys matured quicker.. Much eaiser on the poultry...the karakachans have killed several hens and lots of chicks.. The pyrs only took one good "talking to" in regards to the poultry.... With the karakachans. It's taken repeated "discussions" they've gotten better, but my trust is low when it comes to them and the chickens... They have more PLAY drive then the prys..the karakachans stay with the doe hed 24/7.... Their bond however doesn't seem as strong, as the bond the pyrs had with the herd...at this age... The pyrs are part of the herd...the karakachans like them, hang out with them...but I dontseethesame level of love for the goats.....the karakachans have wonderful temperaments and really want more human attention than the pyrs... I do like the coats of the karakachans better..they have less undercoat. ( we too have hot sticky 100 degree Summer's... With temps in the single digits in winter...lots of cold wind...all the dogs are fine...in either the heat or cold ( none have ever seen the inside of a human home...but do and come as they please, from the goat barns)...the karakachans fight/squabble with each other much more than the pyrs did (the young dogs are both wanting to be top dog) Both breeds are doing their jobs well... The pyrs are larger framed dogs...the karakachans are quicker and more agile.... I will be honest...if I only had 2acres...I'm not sure, I would pick either breed.. I know I wouldn't have a pyr in that small of an area...mine have never wandered off our land... But I fear they would in a smaller working area.. The pyrs were louder with the night time barking, that first year... The karakachans also bark...but settle down quicker once the perceived threat has passed. You might do just as well, with a family farmdog type dog (you will have to make sure he/she KNOWS the rules and any undesired behavior is nipped in the bud)

Good luck on the dog shopping...I find our LGDs to be the most important employees, on our farm..take you time and get a good one, for you situation

Susie, mo ozarks


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

If you ask a dozen LGD owners the same questions, you'll get 100 different answers! Here's what I can offer:

1. If you find the right LGD, it will be fine on your acreage. 
2. A LGD will guard and protect people just as well as livestock.
3. The LGD will always have a preference for being with whatever it bonded with as a young pup. Therefore, if you have no livestock now, it will still guard later when you get animals, but it will always prefer your family. It will protect more from a territorial standpoint. 
4. Yes, other breeds of dogs can be trained to leave animals alone, they can potentially bond with livestock, and they can potentially act a bit like guardians. HOWEVER, they are the exception, not the rule. You will hear far more stories of complete mayhem and failure of people attempting such. I would NEVER recommend you go that direction. If you want a guard dog for your family, a guard breed would work. If you have your heart set on a LGD for whatever reason, just know that guard dogs and LGD's are totally separate dogs with totally separate instincts. 
5. IF you go LGD, forget everything you've ever learned about dogs in the past! OK, not really, but LGD's are very different. A really good LGD is instinctually bred to bond with, protect, and devote its life serving and protecting its "herd"--by it goats, sheep, poultry, or people. They think for themselves, and don't necessarily do things on your time schedule. They also aren't as devoted to pleasing you as a pet dog might be, so you will have to learn to balance your expectations for obedience and instinct. 

Now that I've said all that, there are several LGD breeds out there, and they all have their pros and cons. Read up on them, learn about them, and decide what's best for you. Don't limit yourself to purebreds though. Crosses of LGD breeds are becoming increasingly popular, as a good cross can mix the pros of different breeds and decrease the cons of those breeds. Just do NOT be tempted to get into a LGD crossed with a non-LGD breed if you are looking for an LGD mentality (i.e. a Great Pyr crossed with a border collie). A good example of this is the Colorado Mountain Dog. It is a newer breed that is still establishing itself, but now has a national registry to help breeders work towards a common goal. It's what we have. These dogs are crosses. They are primarily Pyrenees due to the social, friendly natures, with enough other breeds such as Anatolian and Kuvasz added in to control the hair coat, create a leaner, faster dog, and so forth. A big bonus is that these dogs (within the registry) have been carefully selected for attributes such as a contentedness to stay on smaller properties, a people-loving nature (which you may or not be wanting), and poultry guarding trustworthiness. They are proving very successful, and their territories vary from many acres to apartments (with owners who like to actively hike and camp outdoors and want protection for children from bears and such). 

Whatever you decide, learn all you can. If you decide to buy a pup, investigate the breeder. Ask lots of questions, find out all you can about their breeding program, the dam and sire, maybe get references to talk to other buyers, and perhaps even ask for the vet contact info. The better research you do, the more chance you will b successful at finding the right dog for your needs! Happy hunting!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

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