# Is this a hermaphrodite? pic



## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

if so are they rare?
It was sold to our friend as a bush doe.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

looks like it.
sorry
if only for brush clearing, should not be a problem


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## DairyGoatSlave (Dec 27, 2008)

Iv never seen one in goats, but wow, that looks "different". Its pretty rare Id think!


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Yes, I'd guess that is what you are looking at. I had one a few years ago. Yours is much more mature and showing more of the bucky side in its looks than mine was by the time it left my farm. Mine was sold as a companion goat.
It is pretty rare.....not sure what the percentage is. I've only ever had one.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I thought it was but had never seen it before. They are grossed out about it and wants to sell it now. anyone knows if there is a place that may want to buy it for science?
other wise they are going to sell it as a barbecue goat.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

I'd think about keeping it!

They are great for telling you when your fertile does are in heat so you do not have to keep a buck all the time! and are just as good at eating brush, just like all the others.....


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## ChickenMom (Sep 27, 2005)

I think she's cute!


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## DairyGoatSlave (Dec 27, 2008)

yeah, id keep it for a brush goat if thats what you wanted her for. Its not big deal unless your walking behind it staring its bum all day.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I have never had one born here before but if they only want it to clear brush then I don't see the problem. It may turn out to be a really sweet goat & a good little pet to have around.


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## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

I know a breeder who kept a hermie just to tell her who was in heat.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

OK please do not laugh at the rookie but what in that pic show a herm. I notices a redness in the back end area but I thought boys organs were on the belly I am confused right now.


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## DairyGoatSlave (Dec 27, 2008)

luvzmybabz, Its a hermi, see how its different looking, It dosent have two whole sets of both genitalia, its like a combo(someone correct me if im wrong).heres a page i found that has another pic of a he she goat http://community.livejournal.com/go_go_goats


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Call her 'Lady Ga Ga'!


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

_Call her 'Lady Ga Ga'!_ omg thats great lol, 

we had a Hermaphrodite show up once, she looked all the world like a normal doeling untill her udder dropped on one side with a testical, she sure tasted good though


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## angelsprite (Jun 18, 2009)

Tailwagging,
From what I've read of the research, and there has been a ton of research on the polled gene in goats that is the most common cause of hermaphroditism, if a doe LOOKS like a doe, it's probably not a hermaphrodite. If it looks like a buck, but it's teats and genitalia are positioned a little too far back, it may be a hermaphrodite. Some of the does look for all the world like a buck and there are even reports of some fertile intersex bucks that sired offspring, then later became infertile, but began giving milk like a doe. 
I'm sure there are other forms of hermaphroditism, and your doe's vulva looks a little different, but that could be from kidding problems (vaginal prolapse) if she has kidded previously. I've noticed that in other species, females that are intersexed usually have a vulva that looks upside down. The doeling in the photo on the other link also has a vulva that looks upside down, though it's difficult to tell from the pic. Your doe's vulva isn't upside down, but it's protruding and obviously has more tissue than usual. So, you might have the vet take a look before culling. She may be a hermaphrodite, but you want to be sure.
She looks a little old to have survived without being able to conceive. Most people would cull a doe that didn't have babies after a year and a half old. Maybe you got someone's cull, if she is a hermaphrodite.
The bearded gene is dominant in males and recessive in females. Does that are not intersexed will get beards. I have several and all are good producers. Doelings and even adult does will mount each other, just like horses, cows, dogs, even cats will. It's just part of the nature of mammals.
The most common cause of hermaphroditism in does is breeding two natural polled goats together. Since dairy breeders poll all their goats, and many don't even realize that some of those would never grow horns, they can't tell which are polled and which are not. So, they breed two together that should NOT be bred together and they get hermaphrodites. By polling, they remove the goat's cooling system and an important tool for distinguishing which goats can be bred to one another without the risk of hermaphroditism. Then, when they get a hermaphrodite, some breeders will "cull" it by selling it to someone who doesn't know it's a hermaphrodite and that person wastes a lot of feed money trying to breed it. Your most economical route is probably to have a vet check the doe out. That way, you know if she is a hermaphrodite for sure, or whether she is just a big doe with a beard and a big vulva.


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## barngirl (Aug 16, 2009)

One of our does had a hermie this spring, and I could tell almost at birth. They have a little "pea" sized growth on their vulva (often times) and when they're young just don't look "quite right" back there...as they mature than you can tell that something isn't right! They aren't bad - you can use them for brush, a teaser and a companion goat...they shouldn't smell like a buck either.

Jenna


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I don't think they will keep it. It grosses the wife out. they got her in a group of pygmy. but since she was a large goat they wanted to know if I wanted to buy her/it. I saw the rear and said no. I have no need for a bush goat. I was hoping that there may have been a place that would want it. besides the ethnic group.

It was acting like a buck the day I took the pic. front leg kicking, head low,tongue out , mounting,spiting and chasing the real buck around....

this is their real buck
8 months old


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## SheriM (Mar 4, 2009)

AngelSprite, good post...very detailed and well thought out, but I do want to mention one thing. It's easy to tell a polled goat from a horned goat, even when they're very young. When disbudding dairy goats, you have to locate the horn bud, so if the goat is naturally polled, there won't be a horn bud and the producer will know it is polled.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Only way to be sure is get a buccal smear and have a vet or lab look at it for the sex chromosomes.


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

I have a naturally polled buck (alpine) and both of the doelings I got from him this year were naturally polled too. I didn't have any trouble telling the difference.


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

As to the OP that is one funny looking goat. If your neighbors bought it to eat brush then I think they are being a bit silly about it. I would probably see if you can find a breeder that might want it as a tester for breeding.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

they are a bit silly but it their goat. but they bought it in a group and I think was going to sell it anyway. I told them to call the extension office to see if Clemson might want it.


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## angelsprite (Jun 18, 2009)

SherriM,
Thanks for the compliment. 
Yes, it's easy to tell if a goat is natural polled when a person knows what to look for. I'm sure a lot of breeders check their kids before polling. I ended up with a natural polled doe and I didn't know a thing about it at the time. I bred her to my buck and got triplets. My buck is horned. All three of the kids were natural polled. I kept waiting for their horns to grow in. I'm in South Texas and it can get really hot here. I don't poll mine. I became interested in the natural polled gene, but I want to breed it out of my own. If I were polling, I might hang onto it.
Probably a lot of the hermaphrodites are a result of that gene, but most of the natural polled hermaphrodites are said to look just like bucks. They mess up the ratio of male to female when you count the herd because a certain percentage of the does will be counted as bucks.
The hermaphrodites that look like does may be more mildly affected. It's all in degrees.
It's nice the doe may have a place and a job, even though she probably can't conceive. It seems she got lucky!


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

some that are called hermaphrodites are actually 'chimeras'- this is different than a hermie in that both sets of genitalia are present, but not necessarily able to be seen.

In some of the first Guernsey litters from a friend of mine, she had several that were 'ambiguous' as to their sex- the 'vulva' was down between their legs and looked like a rosebud. The testes were there, but up inside where the udder would be, like a pair of grapes when palpated. I had one in a litter last year, along with my one eyed doe kid who was born with no tail.

Look up 'chimera' on wikipedia- the odd chromesome issues these individuals have, yes, even people, are linked to several different genetic abnormalities- some are born with different DNA in their organs than in their bloodstream and even those who are born feeling like that should be a different sex than they are. It can go up XXXXXY, and these individuals are profoundly affected- it is thought there are only a couple of dozen of these humans worldwide.

As an example- a tortoise shell cat is a chimera.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

My hermaphrodite had no polled anywhere in its background, came from parents who had produced viable offspring in the past. She was just a fluke.
To the OP, can you get a picture of this goats udder area?? If it is extremely flat with very small teats, another hermie indicator.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I looked at it's udder. it was very flat. I looked this goat over as well as I could. If they still have it I'll try and go over to take a pic.


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

> As an example- a tortoise shell cat is a chimera.


I think you must mean _male_ tortoise shell cats - female tortoise shell cats are as common as mud. 



> Since dairy breeders poll all their goats, and many don't even realize that some of those would never grow horns, they can't tell which are polled and which are not.


I've only had one naturally polled kid out of a horned doe - I knew right away that she was polled. It's _not _hard to tell. 

You might want to ease off on the "blanket" statements. Just sayin'.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

No, female tortoise shells are chimeras. Two different sets of DNA does not necessarily mean sterility.

There has been stuff in the media where women have had their kids taken because they have different DNA than the baby they gave birth to- Children's services workers actually attending the births so that they can take DNA samples immediately as the worker watches to prove that that woman gave birth to that child.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

I have a doe who looks just like that and she had two lovely doeling this spring. I have another with an elongated pionty end to her vulva, also had kids many times and they both milk great.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I'll be sure to pass that info on to them.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I posted pics of my hermaphrodite "doeling" a couple years ago and pics of normal doelings for comparison. Here are the links to the threads with pics.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=206244&highlight=hermaphrodite

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=187322&highlight=hermaphrodite


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

I had a freemartin doeling 4 or 5 years ago, and I do believe I have another one this year.

They are pretty simple to tell -- put a speculum and light in there and see what's what. In the first kid, she only had a tract about 3" long. Just long enough for her to pee like a girl. There was then just a blank wall....no cervix. When we butchered her, she had no sex organs at all. No uterus, ovaries, testicles....nothing. 

Tracy


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> I had a freemartin doeling 4 or 5 years ago, and I do believe I have another one this year.
> 
> They are pretty simple to tell -- put a speculum and light in there and see what's what. In the first kid, she only had a tract about 3" long. Just long enough for her to pee like a girl. There was then just a blank wall....no cervix. When we butchered her, she had no sex organs at all. No uterus, ovaries, testicles....nothing.
> 
> Tracy


That's bizarre!


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