# Woolen or Worsted



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Twice this week this has been the topic of discussion on newsletters I receive. I know it has been the topic of discussion here several time. For the new spinner and for the non-spinner these can be confusing terms. Below is a link to the blog post from The Woolery (a fiber store). They go into some discussion and comparison of the the two preparations and the tools used. Hopefully you all find it useful. http://thewooleryguy.wordpress.com/...-for-the-right-fiber-prep-how-to-wind-a-pirn/

"Woolen and worstedâthese terms are thrown about a lot. To hand spinners they have very specific meanings. Worsted yarns are made from combed fiber preparation (think combing your hair) while woolen yarns are made from a carded preparation (think brushing your hair). As a spinner we have a lot of control over what kind of yarn we make. The secret is all in the preparation. Whether we buy prepared fiber or do the processing ourselves, knowing a bit about the subject will help become better spinners."

(I have no affiliation with this store. Just thought this post was interesting and helpful)


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

The two confuse me totally. I think I've got it down and then they start mentioning how you draft it as determining if it is woolen or worsted.....

So is it just the carded or combed that differentiates the two?


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

The way my MSP WB describes it, is.......the difference is in the way the fibers line up.
Woolen would be going in all directions, to decrease air flow through the fiber, for warmer clothing.
Worsted would be going all in one direction, not so good on stopping air flow, better for wear but not warmth. 

It says the way you spin it can make it woolen or worsted. Carded wool, spun from a rolag that has been rolled the short way across the length of the card, has the fibers all facing the same direction, worsted. But if you roll it from long end to long end and then spin it from the short end all the fibers will be mixed up, woolen. 

I hope this helps.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

I love this forum! I learn something new every day! Ask a question here and it gets explained in simple enough terms to understand.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Okay not to argue the MSPWB (master spinner program workbook) but.... I will or your interpretation of it maybe, idk.

When you card fibers, I don't care how careful you are the fibers will always be messed-up, not aligned. And then when you make a rolag, where you are rolling the fibers, either from top to bottom or across the cards, then spinning from the end, you are compounding that. You will always end up with a woolen spun yarn. Woolen spun yarns are full of air, light and fluffy and are therefore warmer. 

When you comb fibers all the fibers are uniformly aligned in the same direction and usually of the same length (this is speaking of a traditional combed prep). When these are spun from a top, or sliver and kept in alignment and spun (typically using the "inchworm" method) they will remain aligned and produce a beautifully smooth and dense (no air at all between the fibers) yarn. 

WIHH if you are reading this, ask Rosemary about this. I believe, if I remember right, she is a champion worsted spinner. Maybe you can get a good quote from her.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

So, if you are learning to prepare your own fiber, is it best to start with combing, or carding, and do you ever do both to the same fiber? Card and then comb,or vise versa?


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Hercmama, i think it is really a matter of taste and what pleases you most. Personally I don't like spinning worsted yarns, I don't like working with top/sliver at all, it can be really difficult. But I do love to spin woolen and always have. You can comb fibers and spin them as a woolen yarn but I don't believe you can card fibers and spin them worsted. 

Several people here have really gotten into combing. I think I may be catching the bug but not because I want to spin worsted yarns. Combing fibers is also a way to separate longer fibers from shorter downy fibers in a dual coated fleece. But like Frazzle you can used your combs to just comb the fibers and not separating them out. Combs are also a great way to get VM out of fibers. Carding will also do these things but combs may be better a getting the most VM out, but I don't really know. They are just different ways to prepare fibers.

Thinking further on this topic of worsted vs woolen. This can further confuse things. It is possible to spin anything worsted, also called "inchworm", but that does not make a worsted yarn. I think they call that a woolen spun worsted, semi-woolen, semi-worsted, or something like that. A true worsted yarn much be combed and spun worsted or "inchworm".


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

So, I'm being thick headed here, if you comb, then card, would that be woolen or worsted?
Or is doing both total overkill?:bash:


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Doing both is over kill and you would end up with a woolen if you combed then carded and you would kill your fibers. It is possible to over card. I don't know if you can over comb, not sure if that is even possible.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

People take combed fibers and use the carders to blend them together though, all the time. 

Marchwind, I have found it is entirely possible to keep the fibers all aligned with the carders.
If you put all the locks on facing the same direction and flip them off together you can keep things pretty well straight.
Depends on how much care you put into keeping the structure when you wash the wool, and when you load the cards.
Of course you have to roll the fiber off the cards side-to-side, but it isnt that difficult.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

it's not necessarily overkill ... it could be, if you didn't do it for a good reason, but it's something I do.

I comb because it opens the fibres and gets rid of the short bits and VM. 

Then I put the combed stuff onto my carders and quickly make it into a rolag so that I can spin it woolen long draw. 

I also like to blend on my hand cards - so take combed top and lay it on there like it was raw locks, add sparkly stuff or silk or whatever, do a couple of passes to blend it, make a rolag, done. I do this with commercial top that is annoying me (some of it is really hard to spin).

Make sure to be clear on the context in which worsted and woolen are being used. We talk about a 'worsted prep' or a 'woolen prep' ... which means combed top vs carded rolags, in pure terms. Then some people (fewer now, as it leads to confusion) talk about spinning worsted or spinning woolen ... but really, it's easier to talk about spinning "short forward draw without letting twist get into the drafting triangle" (which is what they mean when they say worsted spinning - this is how you have to spin silk, for example, you let the twist into the drafting triangle with silk and you are in a mess) or "point of contact spinning" (which is sort of an inbetween thing where you draw out a bit at the front and the fibres kind of pull themselves out of the drafting triangle .. Marchwind described it earlier0 or "long draw" which is the classic woolen spinning method - the precursor of which is 'short backward draw'.

Judith McKenzie Mcuin has excellet videos that show these methods - her spinning luxury fibres video shows the worsted spinning for silk just beautifully. Maybe check youtube?

I can do all of these ... I should do a video so you can compare. Won't be today - I had to see the dentist for a filling and it was a bit of an adventure, shall we say. I'm pretty worn out now!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Oh, that makes complete sense that you would use cards to blend with.

Frazzle hope your evening is calm after your dentist visit. When you have time I'd love to see you do spinning demos. Didn't you do one of you spinning longdraw on one of your production wheels?


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Yea, what GAM said. :happy2:
A rolag rolled from short side to short side is worsted wool, and long side to long side makes woolen wool, for spinning. :indif:

Is this right?


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

JDog1222 said:


> Yea, what GAM said. :happy2:
> A rolag rolled from short side to short side is worsted wool, and long side to long side makes woolen wool, for spinning. :indif:
> 
> Is this right?



What if they are the same size? I am not sure if mine will be, but I can see pulling it off the carder and trying to see which is which. And yes, your previous statement did help a bit. Woolen for outer wear.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

If you roll the fibers from long-side to long-side, you are rolling the fiber back on top of itself. 

If you roll from short-side to short-side, the fibers will all be laying next to each other and should be straight.

Look to see if you fibers will roll up straight or if they roll back on themselves, that's how you'll know which way to roll! :thumb:

For worsted yarn you want the fibers straight. For woolen, you want them rolled like a cinnamon roll! :happy2:

No need to know size that way! :shrug:


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

:shocked: I think I get it, the cinnamon roll reference did it! Of course now.I have to go make.dough for tomorrow........:teehee:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Mmmmm, Monkey bread! :heh:


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Cinnamon roll French toast!


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

agh - this topic gets me confused every time! 

Here's a link to "The Joy of Handspinning" that helps me:
http://www.joyofhandspinning.com/spin-woollen-worsted.shtml

So this is what I get out of it:
I thought that "woolen" was not only the fiber prep (carded rolag), but also the spinning (long draw), and that would produce a "true woolen" yarn.

And "worsted" is preparing the fiber by combing it, then spinning using the "inchworm" method, so this would produce a "true worsted" yarn. 

So you can make a semi-woolen or a semi-worsted yard using different combinations of fiber prep and spinning.

Am I thinking right? (I have to go back and read frazzle's description in the morning when I can concentrate better :stars: - lots of great info there!)


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Better than anything I could ever do: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COPAd45ciTA&feature=related"]Abby Franquemont showing Woolen spinning[/ame].

Note that the key in woolen spinning is that you *want* the twist to go into the drafting zone. In worsted you want it to stay *out* of the drafting zone. That's the real difference.

And here is a great video of [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euv5qNUGKmw&feature=related"]worsted spinning.[/ame] Complete with awesome Acadian style music! Notice that the spinner feeds a length of fibre into the twist, rather than letting the twist take the fibre it wants: that's the essential difference in the two techniques.

You can try a short forward draw off a rolag (i.e. a woolen prep) and it will work, and you can try long draw off combed top (it can be done, but it's really hard and doesn't work very well - I've tried it!). 

Most spinners use a style that is somewhere in between. I do a short *backwards* draw by default, so moving into long draw was more or less automatic for me. This [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4B4uGIQL7A"]video[/ame] is the first time I did long draw - the wheel just made it so easy, it happened without me really trying ... it was great. 

Different fibers prefer different preps and are happier with different methods. Alpaca likes worsted, short wool like the Down breeds likes to be made into rolags and spun woolen. You can spin alpaca woolen, but it doesn't come out all shiny pretty like it does worsted and it tends to be lumpy. You can spin Southdown worsted, but you'll probably turn the air blue while you attempt it.

This is part of what we mean when we say the fibre tells you how it wants to be spun.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

:bow: Thanks Frazzle! Those videos really help make it make sense. 
Ya'll afre just such a helpful and well educated bunch!:happy2:


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

What's funny is that watching those videos (love the music in the one btw) has made me realize that I spin worsted a lot. I used to always spin long drawl I need to get back to that, it is so much fun. I actually do a weird combination of several different types all bunched together. But I know when I demo spinning or teach I tend to teach worsted since you can sit and watch what happens much easier. Long draw is so dramatic and so fun. Imagine a room full of spinners spinning by a fire with a Celtic bad playing and everyone is doing long draw to the rhythm of the music. It is a sight to behold.


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