# Warning:Graphic Photo attached. Calving trouble



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I bought my son 4 Angus heifers. He borrowed a young black bull from the neighbors. All 4 were bred and three had no trouble calving. On did have trouble.

She had a large calf. Sometimes a big calf inside a heifer doesnât get positioned correctly. She needs both of the calfâs front feet right up there with his nose. These are farm cattle, not pets and not trained to lead. We did manage to get her into the barn and secured. Without the feet, she was unable to pass this calf. We managed to get the feet up, but the calf was dead. 

Then we were faced with âhip-lockâ. The calfâs pelvis couldnât pass through the cowâs pelvic area. The calf had to be removed in sections. Sometimes the calf can put so much pressure on the nerves in the pelvis that the cow will be paralyzed and never be able to walk or even get up. 

This cow is recovering and after a week hasnât passed the afterbirth. With horses it is critical to get the afterbirth out, but it isnât critical with cattle.
One can never eliminate problems in farming or animal husbandry. Heifers have most of the calving problems. Angus generally have small calves, but it might be good to use a bull that throws small calves, especially heifers.

BTW, all 4 calves were bull calves.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

One of my goats presented with just a head like that this year. First time in 12 years of goatkeeping, and lucky for her by now I knew what to do. But it wasn't easy getting those legs up and out even with a goat. I can't imagine managing it with a calf. I had to pull a dead calf once, and it was not an easy job. Calves are so very much harder than goats, just by the size I guess.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

If she doesn't pass the afterbirth I would be putting in sulfur bolus's. We've had this problem before and if they don't pass it can become a bigger problem.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

man, that's a big nose. He looks ready to wean already! So sorry you had trouble, AND four bull calves. Oh well, good thing they taste like beef...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

so sorry about the calf, I lost a pygmy goat once with legs back, could not get them forward in time and the baby died. Next time twins, leg back at the knee and much smaller, saved both of them


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

Question from a rookie. When you say the calf had to be removed in sections, did you actually go in and cut the calf?


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## Sededl (Jan 14, 2011)

Curtis B

Yes, when we say cut the calf, thats exactly what is done. Usually a device with something similar to piano wire is used to cut the calf into pieces and remove it a section at a time. 


I also have heard of heifers who have has their babys laying on nerves, and there were down a week or more, but somehow managed to recover and walk again.

I think i would still try to flush her uterus. Seems like it would start an infection of something, esp if its rotting.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow, that does look like a big calf! There is a shot you can get from the vet to help expel the afterbirth. Can't remember if it's lute or oxy-whatever. After a week I'd be doing it. Our cows normally pass theirs within the hour of giving birth and it would drive me nuts to wait that long.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Flushes are required at this point if you want to try to move the afterbirth along. You can just let it rot out, but the odds of uteran scarring are higher. Oxytocin only works for the first couple days. By this time, thats too late.
Sorry for the loss of the calf. Nasty business.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Please when you pull a calf, one front leg must be pulled out farther than the other-unevenly. This makes it so that the sholders are narrower when they are cocked.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

That is a big calf.

I worked on a Montana registered Hereford ranch in the early 80s. The owner was big into top bulls and was breeding bulls to heifers that should never have been bred to a large calf bull. 

The stories I could tell......


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

that is the most disgusting picture I have ever seen.
sorry for both momma and baby.......


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

This pic isnt nearly as disgusting as many other things, IMO.


Sorry for the calving trouble this year, Haypoint. 
Live and learn, bah.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Sorry for all of your problems it's always sad to lose a calf. Dystocias are never pleasant but they get really ugly when a Gigli wire has to be used. Hope your heifer makes it, but I would flush her ASAP. As an aside she has a pretty nice udder for a first calf Angus heifer.


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

I would sell that heifer once she recovers - I don't want an animal that has calving issues. If any of mine have trouble they will be gone.

Gruesome business that cutting the calf out - I hope I never have to experience that.

As it is right now my stock is throwing too large of calves and that is one of the things I am going to start on the next breeding session is AI breeding with lower BW and higher CE bulls - all the while trying to maximize all the other positive characteristics that add to the bottom line AND pass on Docility into my animals.

I have 1 of the two replacement heifers that my kids have named Booger because that's how I keep referring to her - every time I try to do anything with the group she acts up.

Once I start to ween the calf she's gone.

For now I'll keep my bull for cleanup duties but am considering running w/o a bull.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

SCRancher, perhaps there's not enough info to make that decision. I don't see birthweights on the other calves, only that "a young black bull" was borrowed from next door, no breed info or EPDs on him, no info on the age or growth condition of the heifer. Some people might give this heifer another chance.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It was assumed the bull was Angus, but there isn't any way to tell for sure. Plus some Angus do throw larger calves. My son is intent on butchering her this fall because of this birthing disaster. But, in reality, it is unlikely she'll have trouble next year. Heifers have more trouble than cows. I'm more concerned that she might not re-breed. All four of these young cows are very good quality and I'd hate to butcher her due to a one time problem.
The other calves were a lot smaller.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

I forgot to say, haypoint, what a hard thing this must have been to have happen, difficult to experience and perhaps even more difficult to share with others. I hope the heifer will recover and rebreed successfully.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

SCRancher said:


> I would sell that heifer once she recovers - I don't want an animal that has calving issues. If any of mine have trouble they will be gone.


I'm curious to whom you would sell her and for what use?


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

DJ in WA said:


> I'm curious to whom you would sell her and for what use?


I would sell her at the cattle auction or to someone who wanted to send her to freezer camp - not as a brood cow - I'm not going to try to send my problems to someone else.

To G. Seddon - of course there could be other circumstances - I had a cow drop a live calf that had issues at birth and died 3 days later - I have not gotten rid of her yet - I'll wait to see what she does this year and then decide.


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

I do not know how that got started that Angus have small calves. It wasn't true 40 years ago and it isn't true today. 
Easy calving is something that has to be bred for. Bulls have to be carefully chosen for heifers of any breed.
But all heifers to be kept should have a pelvic exam before breeding! If you have a heifer with a diamond shaped pelvis you can know she will not have a live calf. There are other shapes that will not allow a heifer to calve and there are also owner reasons a heifer can not calve. They all need to be reviewed. Selling a first calf heifer because she could not calve due to no fault of her own is not reasonable. 
Put a calf on her.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Selling a first calf heifer because she could not calve due to no fault of her own is not reasonable.


Maybe things are different on the beef side, but it's not unusual for a dairy heifer to have a stillborn calf, especially if it's a big bull. 

Out of curiosity, I Googled and found this study, which involved over 7,000 cows on 3 Colorado dairies. 



> More than half (51.2%) of calves born to primiparous dams, compared with 29.4% of calves born to multiparous dams, required assistance during calving. A larger percentage of bull calves (40.0%) required assistance compared with heifer calves (33.0%). Proportion of stillborn calves was 8.2% overall, with bull calves, twin calves, calves born to primiparous dams, and those born to dams having dystocia having a larger stillbirth percentage compared with heifer calves, singletons, calves born to multiparous dams, and unassisted calvings, respectively.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17369215

Their rate of assisted births is a little higher than what I've experienced on the farms I've worked on, but perhaps those farmers were more aggressive about pulling calves. Otherwise, the statistics were pretty much in line with my personal experience.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

An injection of Lute and several terramicyn boluses will cause the heifer to flush the afterbirth.

Young bulls, no matter the breed usually throw larger calves than older mature bulls, more so if the bull in question has any bos indicus blood.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

oneokie said:


> An injection of Lute and several terramicyn boluses will cause the heifer to flush the afterbirth.
> 
> Young bulls, no matter the breed usually throw larger calves than older mature bulls, more so if the bull in question has any bos indicus blood.


An injection of Lute and several terramicyn boluses will OFTEN cause the heifer to flush the afterbirth. Just not a sure thing. Going in and pulling it out can damage the "buttons" that the placenta is attached to the cow with.

Please guide me to the source for your young bulls throwing larger calves info? I'd like to look into this further.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Waiting Falcon said:


> I do not know how that got started that Angus have small calves. It wasn't true 40 years ago and it isn't true today.
> Easy calving is something that has to be bred for. Bulls have to be carefully chosen for heifers of any breed.
> But all heifers to be kept should have a pelvic exam before breeding! If you have a heifer with a diamond shaped pelvis you can know she will not have a live calf. There are other shapes that will not allow a heifer to calve and there are also owner reasons a heifer can not calve. They all need to be reviewed. Selling a first calf heifer because she could not calve due to no fault of her own is not reasonable.
> Put a calf on her.


http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/400/400-803/400-803.html
See table 1. It shows Angus with the lowest birth weights.

http://www.angus.org/Nce/Documents/CedCemEpd.pdf
Refers to the reputation Angus has for low birth weight.

http://www.iqbeef.org/Blog/Hough.pdf
See Figure 1. It shows Angus with lowest birth weights.

Pelvic exams for heifers isn't common. In fact I think it is quite rare. Perhaps it should be done, but management of beef cattle is often behind the times.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

haypoint said:


> An injection of Lute and several terramicyn boluses will OFTEN cause the heifer to flush the afterbirth. Just not a sure thing.


My personal experience upon the advice given by my Vet has shown that it works more often than not.


> Going in and pulling it out can damage the "buttons" that the placenta is attached to the cow with.


Where in my post did I say that?



> Please guide me to the source for your young bulls throwing larger calves info? I'd like to look into this further.


Again, based on personal experience from my many years of operating a cow calf operation.

Here is some reading;

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...1_GJCg&usg=AFQjCNFWnSrEy5PffOBWNVbdYtvgd8v5NQ

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...89i0Cg&usg=AFQjCNGFI3NfMyvQTkFOkWjaCEbCBaG1bg

http://www.ansci.umn.edu/beef/beefupdates/bcmu07.pdf

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...=1#search="MARC research birth weight cattle"


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

oneokie said:


> My personal experience upon the advice given by my Vet has shown that it works more often than not.
> 
> Where in my post did I say that?
> 
> ...


Sorry if my comments sounded confrontational. They werenât meant to be. 
Lute is a hormone that brings a cow into heat. That causes the cow to open up and allows the placenta to pass. Often times it will. Horses respond most of the time, cows less so. You can also give the cow a shot of oxytosin that will stimulate the cow to expel the placenta. You must do this fairly early on, as the uterus naturally contracts after birth and the cow will have difficulty pushing placenta past a constricted uterus. 

My additional comment about buttons was more for additional information and not criticism for anything you said.

I couldn't find anything about younger bulls throwing larger calves, unless you take the thought that with an older bull you have some calving history to go on, while a young bull has no such record.

Interesting that the first web site you listed recommends bulls with a larger pelvic area. Seems that hip lock would be greater with calves that had a larger pelvic area. I can see that youâd want to keep heifers from bulls with large âbirthing hipsâ pelvic area, but for calving ease, I donât see the advantage. But, what do I know?

Thanks for the additional information from the suggested web sites.

Baxter Black, Veterinarian and cowboy poet, has an interesting poem on one of his CDs about pulling calves. Seems that since most ranchers are experienced in pulling calves, the ones that he gets called to are mostly lost causes. The poem/story is about a veterinary sideline business of calf taxidermy. Also, his charge for a farm visit to pull a calf is $100 and the hide. :spinsmiley:


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

haypoint said:


> I couldn't find anything about younger bulls throwing larger calves, unless you take the thought that with an older bull you have some calving history to go on, while a young bull has no such record.
> 
> Thanks for the additional information from the suggested web sites.
> 
> Baxter Black, Veterinarian and cowboy poet, has an interesting poem on one of his CDs about pulling calves. Seems that since most ranchers are experienced in pulling calves, the ones that he gets called to are mostly lost causes. The poem/story is about a veterinary sideline business of calf taxidermy. Also, his charge for a farm visit to pull a calf is $100 and the hide. :spinsmiley:


My opinion is based on many years of putting yearling bulls on yearling hiefers and the resulting wrecks. After several of these wrecks, I started putting the older bulls with the hiefers if they were big enough to handle the size of the bull. The number of calving problems dropped.

Will do more searching for the bull age/birth size info. and post it here.


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## JulieLou42 (Mar 28, 2005)

My cow's first [bull] calf presented both upside-down and backwards...DOA. She's 3/4ths Guernsey-Angus and was AI'd with Jersey. She's large, about 1400#. At 11:30pm the night before she was just fine when I checked in on her, but when I went to her at 6 a.m. next day, it was too late. There wouldv'e been nothing I could have done for her even if I had been checking her out and found this out any earlier. It was a Sat. morning in mid March. A goodly neighbor did come over and try to pull the calf, to no avail, and he worried that he would tear her badly in the attempt. She wound up falling down with her head downhill. HUGE and frightening struggle getting her back up on her feet. Only one of four vets to whom I could truck her was open on Sat. mornings...thank God! And that was a tough 44 mile trip for this novice milkmaid. 

Her second calf was a Saler cross, large, and she needed help. Her third was another Jersey cross and she dropped that one successfully by herself. Her fourth, Jersey again, needed help as he presented with his nose first, and the vet came and made a safe delivery of it. Her fifth was a Guernsey, which was presenting properly, but very large, more than 90#. She was in labor all day long to no avail. The vet finally got here at about 8:30p.m. had the counterforce puller on her and he was coming, but she sat down, and he had to begin again, and this time used just the simple chain...very, very slowly and carefully. Because of the long labor and all, this was a very sleepy calf for quite a while afterwards, but was healthy his entire life, as were all three that we kept. The most docile was, of course, the Guernsey bull...and best meat, too. Now, she's supposed to be calving between now and Jul 10th, and was bred to an Angus, but shows no signs of pregnancy yet. If no calf, she's not getting another chance, because this AI was very good, and all five first 5 of 7 AI's took.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIryuQe9Uho&NR=1[/ame]


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

JulieLou42 said:


> My cow's first [bull] calf presented both upside-down and backwards...DOA. She's 3/4ths Guernsey-Angus and was AI'd with Jersey. She's large, about 1400#. At 11:30pm the night before she was just fine when I checked in on her, but when I went to her at 6 a.m. next day, it was too late. There wouldv'e been nothing I could have done for her even if I had been checking her out and found this out any earlier. It was a Sat. morning in mid March. A goodly neighbor did come over and try to pull the calf, to no avail, and he worried that he would tear her badly in the attempt. She wound up falling down with her head downhill. HUGE and frightening struggle getting her back up on her feet. Only one of four vets to whom I could truck her was open on Sat. mornings...thank God! And that was a tough 44 mile trip for this novice milkmaid.
> 
> Her second calf was a Saler cross, large, and she needed help. Her third was another Jersey cross and she dropped that one successfully by herself. Her fourth, Jersey again, needed help as he presented with his nose first, and the vet came and made a safe delivery of it. Her fifth was a Guernsey, which was presenting properly, but very large, more than 90#. She was in labor all day long to no avail. The vet finally got here at about 8:30p.m. had the counterforce puller on her and he was coming, but she sat down, and he had to begin again, and this time used just the simple chain...very, very slowly and carefully. Because of the long labor and all, this was a very sleepy calf for quite a while afterwards, but was healthy his entire life, as were all three that we kept. The most docile was, of course, the Guernsey bull...and best meat, too. Now, she's supposed to be calving between now and Jul 10th, and was bred to an Angus, but shows no signs of pregnancy yet. If no calf, she's not getting another chance, because this AI was very good, and all five first 5 of 7 AI's took.


This story is why I say I would rid my BEEF herd of a cow that I'm constantly having to pamper.


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