# What we are about to lose.



## Micheal

With the Republicans about to repeal healthcare, we as "older adults" about to lose:

protection from preexisting health conditions.
free preventive care and screenings.
protection from lifetime or yearly dollar limits
illegal to cancel your health insurance.
discounts on drugs when in the "doughnut hole".
and a couple of others dealing with medicare - I forget. 

It will be interesting to see where we go from here and how fast the insurance companies react to the repeal......

Please don't turn this into a political battle as I'm just trying to let retirees know what is going to be lost...... eep:


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## frogmammy

Upon what do you base your presumptions? 

Mon


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## Laura Zone 5

I am over 50 and concerned about healthcare.
I know what I have is hideously expensive; not affordable, and the alternative is to be fined for not having it.......

But

There is no 'plan' in place to replace. That concerns me.
I find it equally concerning as the comments "you'll just have to wait and see" when Obama care was passed......

ZERO politics involved.
I am concerned about health care.
For my 50 year old self, and for my 25 and 26 year old kids.


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## Micheal

frogmammy said:


> Upon what do you base your presumptions?
> 
> Mon


An article from "Retire with Money". 
Sorry I didn't include it as a reference in the original post.


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## jwal10

About all I can find.

http://time.com/newsletter/retire-with-money/

Glad I never listened to them or I would have never retired.

More, by clicking on the light blue area in the first sentence.

http://time.com/money/4621866/obamacare-repeal-congress-donald-trump/

Best thing to do is keep in contact with your represenative. Keep their feet to the fire, same as before. 

What we need is healthcare reform not a free pass for the insurance companies to set prices and coverage on insurance. .gov needs to get rid of fraud and corruption. "Affordable" healthcare for everyone, not universal insurance and bad "law". Mr. Trump has said, there are many good things in the plan, not the law, the law needs to go....James


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## Sourdough




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## TnAndy

Micheal said:


> With the Republicans about to repeal healthcare, we as "older adults" about to lose:
> 
> protection from preexisting health conditions.
> free preventive care and screenings.
> protection from lifetime or yearly dollar limits
> illegal to cancel your health insurance.
> discounts on drugs when in the "doughnut hole".
> and a couple of others dealing with medicare - I forget.


I wasn't aware anything was going to change if you're under Medicare....once you turn 65, doesn't matter what pre-existing condition you have, nor is there a lifetime limit, nor can your insurance be canceled and so on....

I think you (or the source of your info) have Medicare and Obamacare mixed up. 

Honestly, I suspect the Republicans will cook up some kind of Obamacare, and simply call it something else so they can take credit for it. and while there will be the normal amount of govt confusion associated with anything they do, in the end, most of it won't change.

In the longer run, the govt won't be able to pay for anyone's health care because the dollar will crash, our financial situation will resemble Venezuela, all today's social programs created with 'money' created out of thin air will vanish, and people will have to go back to looking out for themselves, like most of human history.


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## big rockpile

TnAndy said:


> I wasn't aware anything was going to change if you're under Medicare....once you turn 65, doesn't matter what pre-existing condition you have, nor is there a lifetime limit, nor can your insurance be canceled and so on....
> 
> I think you (or the source of your info) have Medicare and Obamacare mixed up.
> 
> Honestly, I suspect the Republicans will cook up some kind of Obamacare, and simply call it something else so they can take credit for it. and while there will be the normal amount of govt confusion associated with anything they do, in the end, most of it won't change.
> 
> In the longer run, the govt won't be able to pay for anyone's health care because the dollar will crash, our financial situation will resemble Venezuela, all today's social programs created with 'money' created out of thin air will vanish, and people will have to go back to looking out for themselves, like most of human history.


 I had Medicare well before Obamacare and things were much better.

If it was me I would just replace Obamacare with Medicaid.

big rockpile


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## Raeven

TnAndy said:


> I wasn't aware anything was going to change if you're under Medicare....once you turn 65, doesn't matter what pre-existing condition you have, nor is there a lifetime limit, nor can your insurance be canceled and so on....


Might want to bone up on that statement about Medicare a bit. Republicans absolutely plan to make severe cuts and changes to it -- and soon.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/11/18/GOP-Cuts-Medicare-May-Be-Next-After-Dismantling-Obamacare

If you think your $5,000 coupon (private voucher) will be sufficient to purchase an insurance policy close to what Medicare covers, you're in for a rude surprise.


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## Hitch

You can't say that since there's has been no definitive plan announced. You're just speculating based on hearsay.


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## Raeven

Hitch said:


> You can't say that since there's has been no definitive plan announced. You're just speculating based on hearsay.


LOL, oh, I absolutely agree with you that there's been no definitive _plan_ announced. They haven't produced a coherent _plan_ in the 8 years they worked to repeal the ACA. Lots of broad strokes. Few (if any) concrete, detailed proposals.

And if you'll notice in my original post, I said they _plan to make severe cuts_ -- not that they've settled on how they intend to do that with any specificity. But Paul Ryan's _plans_ re Medicare are well known; it is the strategy he is pursuing, and it includes vouchers for private insurance up to $5,000 and raising the age for participation to 67 and beyond.

As for "hearsay," that term has a particular specific legal meaning, and you're not using it correctly. I've heard it from Paul Ryan's own lips what he intends to do to Medicare -- which means it's not "hearsay." I have directly heard it. Sorry you've missed him saying it to date. He's been saying it for years.

*Michael*'s OP is 100% correct. Every one of the things he listed with the exception of Medicare are protected by the ACA. We stand to lose them all. And I've shared with you why you might want to be a mite more concerned about your Medicare, too. And lastly, a good idea to keep an eye on your Social Security, which they also plan to cut very severely.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-introduces-plan-to-massively-cut-social-security-222200857.html


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## Bellyman

frogmammy said:


> Upon what do you base your presumptions?
> 
> Mon


That was my question, too.


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## frogmammy

I guess the Democrats are on vacation and letting theRrepublicans do all the work.

Mon


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## Raeven

frogmammy said:


> I guess the Democrats are on vacation and letting theRrepublicans do all the work.
> 
> Mon


Upon what do you base your presumptions?


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## jwal10

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I am over 50 and concerned about healthcare.
> I know what I have is hideously expensive; not affordable, and the alternative is to be fined for not having it.......


Big part of the problem here, Insurance is not Healthcare, with O-care both are expensive now, and, no end in sight. 2017 was known to be the tough year when they set it up, just kicked the can down the road, but if you look every year after only gets worse and "they" knew this from the start....James


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## jwal10

Hitch is still right, no one here knows, it is only speculation. I do hope both sides work on it together, even the Democrats have said there are flaws that need work....James


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## frogmammy

Raeven said:


> Upon what do you base your presumptions?


Upon the OP stating that the Republicans...etc, etc...

Mon


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## jwal10

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...to-change-medicare-looks-a-lot-like-obamacare


http://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-HealthCare-PolicyPaper.pdf


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## TnAndy

Raeven said:


> Might want to bone up on that statement about Medicare a bit. Republicans absolutely plan to make severe cuts and changes to it -- and soon.
> 
> http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/11/18/GOP-Cuts-Medicare-May-Be-Next-After-Dismantling-Obamacare
> 
> If you think your $5,000 coupon (private voucher) will be sufficient to purchase an insurance policy close to what Medicare covers, you're in for a rude surprise.



OK...read it.

Quote Paul Ryan: âIf we act now, this can mean that traditional Medicare will continue for those currently on the program or near Medicare eligibility,â

So what they seem to be looking at is changes like age increase and voucher for younger people not in Medicare.

Let's face it....the money isn't there....Current payroll taxes pay 37% of the program....another 42% comes from general tax revenues.....and enrolled folks pay the other 13% (not sure where the other 8% comes from, article didn't say)

So I'm getting a heck of a deal paying 13% of the cost of my medical care, and OPM (other people's money) is paying the rest. Problem is, there ain't no tooth fairy, and as some point, folks are gonna have to pay for what they get. Just because they ran a Ponzi scheme in the past doesn't mean it can continue.


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## Raeven

frogmammy said:


> Upon the OP stating that the Republicans...etc, etc...
> 
> Mon


 â¦ and _that_ was enough to persuade you that all the Democrats are on vacation? Something so easy to factually check? Because the difference being, what *Michael* asserted is factually true. Here is the text of the ACA: 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590/text

The protections are enumerated in it. All you have to do is read it to find them. It is _solely_ Republicans who are attempting to repeal the ACA and remove those protections.

What you asserted is not factually true. The Democrats are not on vacation. Theyâre unanimously trying to protect the ACA, along with some Republicans â at least, until a replacement plan is proposed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obamacare-idUSKBN14X1SK

Donât you keep up with the news? Or were you just trolling in an attempt to disrupt the thread in exactly the way the OP asked not be done, by politicizing it, because you donât like the facts?

I am sure the Dems will be as willing to assist the Republicans in crafting a new plan for health care as the Republicans were in making the ACA a success over the past 8 years.


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## Raeven

TnAndy said:


> OK...read it.
> 
> Quote Paul Ryan: âIf we act now, this can mean that traditional Medicare will continue for those currently on the program or near Medicare eligibility,â
> 
> So what they seem to be looking at is changes like age increase and voucher for younger people not in Medicare.
> 
> Let's face it....the money isn't there....Current payroll taxes pay 37% of the program....another 42% comes from general tax revenues.....and enrolled folks pay the other 13% (not sure where the other 8% comes from, article didn't say)
> 
> So I'm getting a heck of a deal paying 13% of the cost of my medical care, and OPM (other people's money) is paying the rest. Problem is, there ain't no tooth fairy, and as some point, folks are gonna have to pay for what they get. Just because they ran a Ponzi scheme in the past doesn't mean it can continue.


Medicare is not "bankrupt." And no one's looking for the Tooth Fairy. There are lots of other ways to fund it. In fact, the ACA pushed back the deadline for Medicare remaining solvent to 2028, simply by its implementation:

http://www.cbpp.org/research/health/medicare-is-not-bankrupt

But we're getting rid of that now.

The Ponzi scheme reference is just scare talk. Medicare has worked fine since its implementation in 1965, and it has always paid its way until more recent times. You know what _has_ changed since then? How little tax is being paid by wealthy people. It's an interesting correlation.


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## Sourdough




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## Sourdough

This is what the "End-Game" looks like. I just don't understand why people are still clinging to "HOPE". Hoping things can be fixed, Hoping that somehow the system will last just a weee bit longer. It is Over.......It ended in 2008.....this is what the dying quivers looks like. It ain't going to get better, it is only going to get worse, and the rate of deterioration will accelerate.


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## FarmerJoe

Paul Ryan has wanted to give vouchers for Medicare for a long time. And privatize SS, putting that money in the stock market. The current talk for Healthcare is a voucher type system. You will get a $5,000 credit (for example only) and then you buy health insurance. Problem is that after you are 50 you may not be able to afford the premium at even double the voucher amount. 

Quote Paul Ryan: &#8220;If we act now, this can mean that traditional Medicare will continue for those currently on the program or near Medicare eligibility,&#8221;

Just because you are already on or near medicare or collecting SS and don't have to worry about it changing, doesn't mean you get to throw the younger people under the bus.


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## Sourdough

FarmerJoe said:


> ...... doesn't mean you get to throw the younger people under the bus.



What part of we are "Bankrupt" as a Country, Bankrupt as to each of the 50 States, Bankrupt at each county, city, town, do people NOT understand....???

The best health care program is hard work, hard physical work. That more than anything would help keep people healthy.

Just a very few years ago we had NO national health insurance program, now suddenly people can't live without what they did not have just a few years ago.

A few years ago there was no such thing as an I-phone, now people can't live without one.

This whole thing was never for the people.......it was always for the insurance companies and the medical care industry, and the drug companies.


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## Raeven

Sourdough said:


> What part of we are "Bankrupt" as a Country, Bankrupt as to each of the 50 States, Bankrupt at each county, city, town, do people NOT understand....???
> 
> The best health care program is hard work, hard physical work. That more than anything would help keep people healthy.
> 
> Just a very few years ago we had NO national health insurance program, now suddenly people can't live without what they did not have just a few years ago.
> 
> A few years ago there was no such thing as an I-phone, now people can't live without one.
> 
> This whole thing was never for the people.......it was always for the insurance companies and the medical care industry, and the drug companies.


Not everyone believes as you do, *Sourdough*. You'r entitled to your opinion, but you've provided exactly nothing to support the notion that the whole world is going to  in a hand basket within months, weeks or days or whatever.

It's worth noting that there are many, many nations in worse shape than ours that still manage to maintain a semblance of governance and civility. Many even provide reasonably priced health care to their citizenry. And no; their problems are not caused by keeping their populations healthy.

As for what "this whole thing" was for, I agree with you that it has disproportionately benefited the 'for-profits' you name. But if you think it benefits _only_ them, I encourage you to say that to a cancer survivor, someone who suffered a heart attack, a stroke or a brain aneurysm. I suspect you'll find they feel it benefited them, too. All the working out in the world won't prevent some of these afflictions. Would that they could.


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## Sourdough

Raeven said:


> All the working out in the world won't prevent some of these afflictions. Would that they could.


NO.....No....No....Not "Working Out"........WORKING, as in working physical labor. Like hard farm labor, or stacking lumber.......Labor is good for the body and the mind.


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## Raeven

Sourdough said:


> NO.....No....No....Not "Working Out"........WORKING, as in working physical labor. Like hard farm labor, or stacking lumber.......Labor is good for the body and the mind.


Working out can be anything that involves hard physical work. The body draws no distinction between bucking hay bales or lifting weights.

But it still won't prevent cancer or a brain aneurysm... or a shattered femur.


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## Sourdough

Raeven said:


> Not everyone believes as you do, *Sourdough*. You'r entitled to your opinion, but you've provided exactly nothing to support the notion that the whole world is going to  in a hand basket within months, weeks or days or whatever.



How about you look at the REAL unemployment numbers, and the REAL inflation numbers, and the REAL family debt load, and REAL home equity. Earning per household are slightly lower than twenty years ago. We are drunk on distractions......like I-phone'thingies, and a thousand other distractions.

Or that the national debt has "DOUBLED" in the last eight years, to 17,trillion dollars. Nearly "ALL" I repeat "ALL" pension funds are grossly underfunded, especially State governments, Cities, Counties, and Corporations.

I am 70 y/o and have no children, so for me it is just watching it happen, but if I was younger, or had children, I would be seriously getting un-addicted to all the distractions, that are intended to create a false security. There will be a "RESET"......and it will be painful. It is totally unavoidable.

If people want to live in la'la land, it is fine with me.

You need look no further than the quality of the two "ONLY" choices we were offered as leader of America.

Just look at how torn apart our country is right now, this is a symptom of the unspoken terror people are seeing of their future. This country is on the cusp of a major internal event. Like I say, it is not my problem, I have had my life, and it was good, I might get another 5 useful years of life.

Everyone in the "Roaring Twenties" thought they had created economic nirvana. No one foresaw twenty-five years of hell, depression, world war, hundreds of millions died horrible deaths of starvation, freezing to death, and the guns of war, culminating in two atomic bombs dropped on civilians who had hopes and dreams, and families.

I hope nothing horrible happens, but when I look, and I am honest about what I see.......I see only that what is can't not be extended much further.


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## Micheal

WOW!!!

And here all I wanted to do was inform.....

Inform as to some of what we as elders can expect to lose if and when the ACA is repealed....


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## Laura Zone 5

Sourdough, I am only 20 years your JR. but really feel the same way as you....



> I am 70 y/o and have no children, so for me it is just watching it happen, but if I was younger, or had children, I would be seriously getting un-addicted to all the distractions, that are intended to create a false security. There will be a "RESET"......and it will be painful. It is totally unavoidable.


"Un Addicted to distractions". 
I have 3 adult kids (26,25,22 1/2). The older two have ears that hear right now.
If you were 50, with the above 3 kids, what would you be doing right now??


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## Sourdough

Micheal said:


> WOW!!!
> 
> And here all I wanted to do was inform.....
> 
> Inform as to some of what we as elders can expect to lose if and when the ACA is repealed....



What your not seeing is that the repeal is what people are focused on, keenly and intensely focused, so intensely focused that they can't see that it is a symptom of a much larger problem. And you can't fix a symptom, you can't tweak or adjust a symptom, you have to fix the underlying problem.


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## ladytoysdream

If you are going to lose something, or have it made less in $$ coming in as income , then one needs to go like heck, and pay off as many bills as you can, stock up on what you can, and make plans and back up plans.
Currently I am trying to get the home equity loan paid off early, as we had the mortgage paid off earlier. Vehicles are paid for. If we keep pinching and stay on budget, then we can make it.


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## Sourdough

Laura Zone 5 said:


> If you were 50, with the above 3 kids, what would you be doing right now??


I understand your question, and you have asked this question before. Implied with-in the question is the assumption that an "Actionable" answer exists. Here is the problem with trying to answer the question. Any answer, or any advise would be weighed by you against your assessment of the underlying problem. 

So even the very best advise would not be acted upon, till you full understood the problem. The way people live now, is they want simple answers.....they want a list of things to do. They read the list, and say, "I don't see or understand the problem, so I will wait to act on this list, till I have clarity about the size of the problem, and in the meantime, I need a new "thing'ie" distraction tool".

My best advise is to study the underlying problem. Which is very hard, because the problem is an illusion. We live in a sea of illusions. And the very people we trust, their lives, their families lives, their friends and loved one's lives depend on perpetuating the illusions. Even our lives depend on perpetuating the illusion. Or more accurately pretending that the illusions are not illusions, but are real.

The problem is the illusion was fully exposed in September 2008. We now exist in a period where we pretend that we did not see that. And in the meantime vigorously endeavor to create a new illusion to replace the old illusion. We are failing in that endeavor.


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## jwal10

big rockpile said:


> If it was me I would just replace Obamacare with Medicaid


That is what they are doing for those that qualify. Many do not. Also people that live in states that did not take the Federal money are hurt a lot more. People with income just above that are the ones that it hurts the most. No one wants to talk about the bad parts of the law. Democrats push the total, Republicans just want it gone. I for one want both sides to come together and fix the bad parts so we the people can have fair sustainable affordable healthcare for everyone. Not free for some and unaffordable for many. Everyone should have skin in the game, to their ability. % of income, same for everyone....James


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## ET1 SS

We know a lot of people who can not get healthcare.

Our nation needs some form of Affordable Healthcare for everyone.

I suggest that we tear this abomination apart and figure out how to get everyone healthcare.

This nation needs Affordable Care for everyone.


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## Sourdough

Yes........But to give something, it "MUST" come from someplace. So to have "Affordable Healthcare".......what would you suggest we delete....??? Maybe delete money from Education, maybe delete money from roads and bridges.......where should we take the money from......??? There is no magic......and we are bankrupt. Maybe everyone in the medical services industry could take a 35% cut in pay.





ET1 SS said:


> We know a lot of people who can not get healthcare.
> 
> Our nation needs some form of Affordable Healthcare for everyone.
> 
> I suggest that we tear this abomination apart and figure out how to get everyone healthcare.
> 
> This nation needs Affordable Care for everyone.


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## RichNC

Sourdough said:


> NO.....No....No....Not "Working Out"........WORKING, as in working physical labor. Like hard farm labor, or stacking lumber.......Labor is good for the body and the mind.


So, what your saying is if my wife, who died of cancer, had just done hard physical labor 7 days a week she wouldn't have gotten cancer and died. Sell that story to hundreds/thousands of men and women who farmed land all their lives and still died of cancer, or well I guess sell it to their children and grandchildren and see how they react.


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## Clem

Some people do their best with what they got. Other people complain about what they ain't got.


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## Sourdough

No I did not say that........"YOU" said that not me.

HERE is exactly what I said......and it does NOT remotely resemble what you say that I said......which makes your statement a LIE.

*"NO.....No....No....Not "Working Out"........WORKING, as in working physical labor. Like hard farm labor, or stacking lumber.......Labor is good for the body and the mind". 

Note: I enlarged it because you are visually challenged.
*



RichNC said:


> So, what your saying is if my wife, who died of cancer, had just done hard physical labor 7 days a week she wouldn't have gotten cancer and died.


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## Sourdough

RichNC said:


> So, what your saying is if my wife, who died of cancer, had just done hard physical labor 7 days a week she wouldn't have gotten cancer and died. Sell that story to hundreds/thousands of men and women who farmed land all their lives and still died of cancer, or well I guess sell it to their children and grandchildren and see how they react.



Question.......When you take a clear statement and you willingly completely change the statement, to fit your agenda, are you assuming that that person is dumber than you are......or are you broadcasting your lack of reading comprehension skills.


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## RichNC

Sourdough said:


> No I did not say that........"YOU" said that not me.
> 
> HERE is exactly what I said......and it does NOT remotely resemble what you say that I said......which makes your statement a LIE.
> 
> *"NO.....No....No....Not "Working Out"........WORKING, as in working physical labor. Like hard farm labor, or stacking lumber.......Labor is good for the body and the mind".
> 
> Note: I enlarged it because you are visually challenged.
> *


You don't need to enlarge it I am not challenged in the eye sight category, nor am I in "the sky is falling" category, which you seem to be! Honestly, it must be horrible to live each day dreading that the whole world is going to collapse and you are going to be living off your secret caches strewn all around the woods. No friends to go have coffee with, share a recent story about your chickens or cattle, share a meal over the holiday season, spend time speaking with them face to face, seeing them laugh, and cry at times that is life, I don't wish for your life as it seems sad.

My wife died of cancer, not amount of hard physical labor would have cured that, she worked hard all her life as have I, still do, but cancer or a heart attack could catch me tomorrow and no amount of preparedness will solve that.


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## Clem

As a generalization, personal insults are frowned on.

Some people are stating the facts of their life, and others are just uncontrollably angry.


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## Sourdough

RichNC said:


> nor am I in "the sky is falling" category, which you seem to be! Honestly, it must be horrible to live each day dreading that the whole world is going to collapse and you are going to be living off your secret caches strewn all around the woods. No friends to go have coffee with, share a recent story about your chickens or cattle, share a meal over the holiday season, spend time speaking with them face to face, seeing them laugh, and cry at times that is life, I don't wish for your life as it seems sad.


You seem to have a strange and largely flawed fascination with me.

A.) I have a lot of friends and a large family. Most of my friends have been friends for 45 to 6o years.

B.) I spent Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Years enjoying dinner and conversation with friends and neighbors.

C.) I have coffee and/or a shot of Tequila regularly with friends and neighbors. Sometimes we even have a shot of tequila in the coffee over conversation.

D.) I spring out of bed everyday excited about what adventure it will offer.

E.) I do not figure the world is going to collapse, I do figure that a huge reset will happen. There have always been resets, no reason to think that will ever change.

F.) I do often spend three to six months alone in the wilderness, it is how I replenish my deep experience of God.

G.) And I raise "Toulouse" Geese not chickens or cattle.

Sorry about your wife's death.


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## FarmerJoe

> The best health care program is hard work, hard physical work. That more than anything would help keep people healthy.


This is total bull. I have been a farmer most of my life, among other things. My brother has dairy farmed at least the last 30 years. He had a heart attack a couple years ago. Slipped on the ice last year and just had the surgery for a torn rotator cuff. He's lucky he's poor enough that he is on Medicaid. Most farmers can't buy health insurance because the job is considered dangerous. More dangerous than mining. A friend I went to school with had a heart incident after Christmas. He walked into the hospital and walked out 31 hrs. later. No heart attack (they don't know what it was) and no surgery. Just tests and observation. The bill was $186,000. He had insurance. Costs are out of control.

There are two choices.
1. Provide affordable insurance.
2. Regulate healthcare and prescription costs.

I guess a third choice is to bankrupt people and let them suffer and die.


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## FarmerJoe

[quoteJust a very few years ago we had NO national health insurance program, now suddenly people can't live without what they did not have just a few years ago][/quote]

30 years ago the costs could be afforded and I had BlueCross BS for $60 a month.


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## Sourdough

So the money for National Healthcare has to come from someplace. Where..??? I am not saying that we should not have National Healthcare, but when your 17'trillion dollars in debt and interest rates are going up, something has to give. What are we willing to give up....??? Military spending, Education spending, Social Security, Farm Subsidies.....??? WHAT. 





FarmerJoe said:


> This is total bull. I have been a farmer most of my life, among other things. My brother has dairy farmed at least the last 30 years. He had a heart attack a couple years ago. Slipped on the ice last year and just had the surgery for a torn rotator cuff. He's lucky he's poor enough that he is on Medicaid. Most farmers can't buy health insurance because the job is considered dangerous. More dangerous than mining. A friend I went to school with had a heart incident after Christmas. He walked into the hospital and walked out 31 hrs. later. No heart attack (they don't know what it was) and no surgery. Just tests and observation. The bill was $186,000. He had insurance. Costs are out of control.
> 
> There are two choices.
> 1. Provide affordable insurance.
> 2. Regulate healthcare and prescription costs.
> 
> I guess a third choice is to bankrupt people and let them suffer and die.


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## Clem

If we really wanted to help, we'd give up tax breaks for the wealthy. But, that'll never happen, because nobody except the very wealthy can afford to butter up congressmen who are .. guess what? Also in the very wealthy crowd.


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## FarmerJoe

^^^^ What Clem said.



> So the money for National Healthcare has to come from someplace. Where..??? I am not saying that we should not have National Healthcare, but when your 17'trillion dollars in debt and interest rates are going up, something has to give. What are we willing to give up....??? Military spending, Education spending, Social Security, Farm Subsidies.....??? WHAT.


I think it would be multiple things to get the money including cost control on prescriptions . As for the bulk , I would take 100 billion from the military's 600 billion and put that to healthcare. That would leave us still spending twice what Russia and China spend combined. Should be plenty for defense. It may limit our offense and we may have to cut back on actively bombing people.

I would like to see health insurance companies set up like a non-profit or like credit unions or co-ops. Then there is no worry for the CEO or board to have to return profits to share holders. Any leftover money is returned to the policy holders.


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## Sourdough

Sounds like a good plan.....really, I would vote for it, good suggestion.





FarmerJoe said:


> ^^^^ What Clem said.
> 
> I think it would be multiple things to get the money including cost control on prescriptions . As for the bulk , I would take 100 billion from the military's 600 billion and put that to healthcare. That would leave us still spending twice what Russia and China spend combined. Should be plenty for defense. It may limit our offense and we may have to cut back on actively bombing people.
> 
> I would like to see health insurance companies set up like a non-profit or like credit unions or co-ops. Then there is no worry for the CEO or board to have to return profits to share holders. Any leftover money is returned to the policy holders.


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## Laura Zone 5

Can't we cut the fat?
SO many $$ wasted on studies that are useless, programs that encourage people to be lazy and non productive, caps on salaries.....
Cut the fat.


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## Sourdough

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Can't we cut the fat?
> SO many $$ wasted on studies that are useless, programs that encourage people to be lazy and non productive, caps on salaries.....
> Cut the fat.



Study "DEEP STATE". and Shadow Government.........Don't just look it up to see what Deep State is, spend the time to study and understand Deep State. I have to shamefully admit that just a few years ago was my first coming to grips with Deep State and Shadow Government. When you really grasp Deep State, you understand all of these social issues. You can't really understand anything that involves "Any" government, in any country, at any level till you understand "Deep State" and Shadow Government. What you start to understand is why it is so hard to make any change, and if you do make a change, the Deep State and Shadow Government will impede it's success and survival.


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## FarmerJoe

Thanks for your vote Sourdough but we both know the system (deep state or shadow government or bureaucracy) is not going to let that happen. There is no way the defense complex is going to give up billions of dollars without a fight. Look at how much effort it takes to close a military base or cancel a weapons program



> Can't we cut the fat?


Laura, I agree with cutting fat, waste, stopping fraud. I'm frugal and hate to see waste. The problem is that it is only a small amount in the big scheme of things. Like having a yard sale to raise money to pay the mortgage. The other is that "fat" is going to someone's district or bureau and they are going to try and protect it.

After the election I read an article commenting on the plausibility of Trump "draining the swamp". The take away was that there is a lot of built in resistance to change. There would be a lot of people protecting what they have. It would seem that the swamp is full of crocs with teeth and they are not just going to leave.


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## ldc

FYI: To follow Farmer Joe's post (the part about the swamp maybe not draining) this a.m., the 2nd yahoo news item today, Jan. 20th is that the Trump administration has decided to keep 50 of Obama's staff, if only for the transition. Previously, Mr. Obama did the same, with some of Mr. Bush' staff.


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## farmgal

We can't have government run insurance. It created a monopoly and the prices are shooting through the roof. Trumps just getting rid of the monopoly, not the propaganda stayed online. Stop the fear monger stories and give him a chance already.


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## Bungiex88

The problem will never be fixed. The government can't even deliver mail without bankrupting it how the heck do you think there going to run healthcare. The only way to fix it is to pry the government's hand of everything they have a hold of but that will never happen


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## Laura Zone 5

Bungiex88 said:


> The problem will never be fixed. The government can't even deliver mail without bankrupting it how the heck do you think there going to run healthcare. The only way to fix it is to pry the government's hand of everything they have a hold of but that will never happen



Absolute truth.


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## Sourdough

Relevant and worth reading........fairly short.http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-triumph-of-technocrats.html


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