# Where are the Monuments ?



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Where are the monuments to those that fought for right alone with out the nation behind them ? Those that had the courage to to stand up first and say this isn't right?
People DIED protesting our involvement in Vietnam till we decided they were right. Others stood up and said the draft wasn't right and went to jail till we agreed with them. Were they still there after the draft ended?
Where are their monuments?
People died for claiming their human rights even though they were black,do they have monuments? 
Its far harder to stand up alone against the majority than to go off with the crowed to do something.
They deserve those monuments


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

If we look around, maybe the monuments are everywhere.

Maybe the fact that we are not _still_ fighting the Vietnam war, stands testament, to those fought and died _here_, to to end a fruitless war, even if the 'heros' are not named.

The fact there is a black family, living in the white house, shows that those, of all colors, who fought and died for civil rights, did not do so in vain.

Besides, most people do stuff, because they think it need done. Not because they crave permanent recognition.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Have you not seen the MLK monument?
I'd not be in favor of a Jane Fonda monument, however. Even w/Kerry sitting w/her. Even more so agin' it.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Where are the monuments to those that fought for right alone with out the nation behind them ? Those that had the courage to to stand up first and say this isn't right?
> People DIED protesting our involvement in Vietnam till we decided they were right. Others stood up and said the draft wasn't right and went to jail till we agreed with them. Were they still there after the draft ended?
> Where are their monuments?
> People died for claiming their human rights even though they were black,do they have monuments?
> ...


Get your fundraiser going and put up some monuments you think are needed. The Internet Fairy isn't going to do it for you. 

I was involved in the establishment of one local historical marker/monument, it took two years, about $3 grand, and a lot of hoops to jump thru to get one simple brass marker on a pole commemorating an event from the 30's. 

The ones who died, you must be referring to the Kent State shootings? There is a memorial on the campus. http://dept.kent.edu/ksumay4/memo.htm Do you think another one is needed? If so, where?

I bet if you spent a little time with google, there are a lot of monuments and memorials you would probably like to visit or at least feel better knowing they are there.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

If you locate any monuments to the draft dodgers, Viet Nam war protesters, or any of similar ilk, let us know. I'd like to take a road trip to see them, holding my urine the whole way.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> If you locate any monuments to the draft dodgers, Viet Nam war protesters, or any of similar ilk, let us know. I'd like to take a road trip to see them, holding my urine the whole way.



Umm as a nation we decided they were right. 
Why would you want to insult their bravery. ?
Comments like the above 40 years after the fact show just how brave they had to be at the time.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Ozarks Tom said:


> If you locate any monuments to the draft dodgers, Viet Nam war protesters, or any of similar ilk, let us know. I'd like to take a road trip to see them, holding my urine the whole way.


I think you misunderstand what the Vietnam war protests were all about. They were protesting against sending American boys to war, not against the boys who were sent.

Besides, Bill O'Reilly has given new meaning to protesting. By his definition I was in a war zone in Vietnam when I protested the Vietnam war in Ohio. Maybe I should qualify for VA benefits.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I think you misunderstand what the Vietnam war protests were all about. They were protesting against sending American boys to war, not against the boys who were sent.
> 
> Besides, Bill O'Reilly has given new meaning to protesting. By his definition I was in a war zone in Vietnam when I protested the Vietnam war in Ohio. Maybe I should qualify for VA benefits.


Yep they didn't spit or worse when I was in the airport.or any where else.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I think you misunderstand what the Vietnam war protests were all about. They were protesting against sending American boys to war, not against the boys who were sent.
> 
> Besides, Bill O'Reilly has given new meaning to protesting. By his definition I was in a war zone in Vietnam when I protested the Vietnam war in Ohio. Maybe I should qualify for VA benefits.


Where's you monument to them?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Old Vet said:


> Yep they didn't spit or worse when I was in the airport.or any where else.


If it happened it was never reported.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Umm as a nation we decided they were right.
> Why would you want to insult their bravery. ?
> Comments like the above 40 years after the fact show just how brave they had to be at the time.


I won't argue the pros/cons of the war, but I'd like to know when we "as a nation" made that decision. I guess I missed that vote.

Insult their bravery? Mobs aren't brave, especially when they're made up of draft age guys and their girlfriends. Now, if someone had tried spitting on me, that would have been brave.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Where's you monument to them?


Didn't they get a Vietnam war memorial?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

monuments my foot!!! If I had my way I'd gut the cowardly illegitimates who spit on our men coming back from Vietnam. Look at what we got from the draft-dodging SOB, Monica's friend. 

To hell with those protestors=-=-the "hell no I won't go crowd brought us to this entitlement mentality. May they all die of leprosy.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Nevada said:


> If it happened it was never reported.


ound:ound:ound:ound::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: That is the funniest thing I ever heard.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Didn't they get a Vietnam war memorial?


That wasn't what i asked.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

What is this? Some kind of trolling joke? 
Since when are the Jane Fonda followers heroes? Brave? Is there a link to this idiocy? 
Is the op trying to get a rise out of our 'nam vets? Should I get DH on here?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Since when are the Jane Fonda followers heroes?


I opposed the war, but I don't know that I classify myself as a Jane Fonda follower.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Where are the monuments to those that fought for right alone with out the nation behind them ? Those that had the courage to to stand up first and say this isn't right?
> Where are their monuments?
> People died for claiming their human rights even though they were black,do they have monuments?
> Its far harder to stand up alone against the majority than to go off with the crowed to do something.
> They deserve those monuments


Monuments to peace on earth, goodwill towards men?
Maybe you just overlooked them. 
Look again, I'm sure you can find some........






Although the Prince of Peace wasn't a big fan of fancy stone monuments. Most of His followers probably feel the same way.......


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I opposed the war, but I don't know that I classify myself as a Jane Fonda follower.


So were you brave for doing so?
I opposed it also, feared my then small sons would have to go b/c it dragged on so long...but vehemently opposed the traitor Fonda. I certainly didn't consider myself heroic OR brave.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The men that stood up publicly said it's wrong and were willing to take their beatings (and at first they did ) and go to jail for it were brave. 
Individual bravery in the face of overwhelming odds is what the Congress awards the medal of honor for in a combat situation. 
How much braver is it to do it in the face of your friends and neighbors who you will know and live with for ever ?
I didn't want this thread to be about the morality of those who went to nam please don't drag that in here as I'm sure it would get the thread closed in a minute


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Just a thought, maybe since there are no monuments it could be that not many agree with your analysis.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> The men that stood up publicly said it's wrong and were willing to take their beatings (and at first they did ) and go to jail for it were brave.
> Individual bravery in the face of overwhelming odds is what the Congress awards the medal of honor for in a combat situation.
> How much braver is it to do it in the face of your friends and neighbors who you will know and live with for ever ?
> I didn't want this thread to be about the morality of those who went to nam please don't drag that in here as I'm sure it would get the thread closed in a minute



It's an interesting thought but I'm afraid my opinions are biased by how my own family members were treated when they returned from Vietnam. They did what was expected of them, two sustained injuries that have affected their quality of life and like so many others deserved the support of their countrymen. 


I can certainly understand protesting the draft and an unpopular war but those men that were treated like criminals upon their return, were drafted, not enlisted and certainly did not deserve contempt and scorn. 

I don't believe that was the intention of those that initially protested but like anything else, people get caught up in the situation and take it to another level.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I can certainly understand protesting the draft and an unpopular war but those men that were treated like criminals upon their return, were drafted, not enlisted and certainly did not deserve contempt and scorn.


I never observed anything like that.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I never observed anything like that.


We're you in the military? I was only 10 at the time and I clearly remember how our returning military were treated. It hasn't changed much. The liberals hated our military, they still.do, which is confusing because their the reason liberals get to voice their opinions!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I never observed anything like that.


DH was spat on in airports, something he for sure didn't see coming. 
To this day, when folks find out he's a 'Nam vet & thank him for his service, its hard for him not to tear up a bit.

Gosh, NV, I'd thought you might have read about that. Many were truly abused, rocks thrown, called 'baby killers'.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> I never observed anything like that.



I've have quite a few Vietnam vets in my family and they have indicated that how each of them and their friends were treated was different in each case. Some were treated well, others badly and some were just ignored. 

Like yourself, I haven't seen every situation so I can only base my perception on those I'm aware of and how it affected their lives. 

In either case, my opinion on if the US needs monuments in this case, is not valid because I am not an American citizen.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The protesters I'm talking about were protesting our involvement in the war. , trying to get our boys out. 
I don't think they were the ones with TV shows revealing the atrocities the USA was committing that led to our GIs being denigrated by a few Americans.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> The protesters I'm talking about were protesting our involvement in the war. , trying to get our boys out.
> I don't think they were the ones with TV shows revealing the atrocities the USA was committing that led to our GIs being denigrated by s few Americans.


Yes, those were the issues that interested me also.

I considered troops in Vietnam to be reluctant participants who didn't really want to be there in the first place. I was protesting on behalf of the troops, not against them. I had no reason to hate Vietnam troops.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Ozarks Tom said:


> If you locate any monuments to the draft dodgers, Viet Nam war protesters, or any of similar ilk, let us know. I'd like to take a road trip to see them, holding my urine the whole way.


The Vietnam War lasted over 20 years, accomplishing nothing.

Didn't _somebody_ need to at least _try_ to do _something_, about that fact, other than putting on a uniform and hoping not to be killed, captured, or injured?


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

When a group of people come together to protest a thing, a lot of times it's those who "pile on" for the sake of being a part of it that causes the original, intended message to be lost.

Many members of my family went to Vietnam...their country called and, whether they agreed with the politics of it or not, they served...except for my birth father (who I never knew), they all came home. They have my utmost respect and admiration for answering the call of duty.

As for the protestors who PEACEFULLY and RESPECTFULLY did so ONLY to try to bring them home, I have no problem with them and applaud them for at least making the effort, but for those who disrespected the soldiers, while in-country or upon their return, I find myself in agreement with Ozarks Tom.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> The protesters I'm talking about were protesting our involvement in the war. , trying to get our boys out.
> I don't think they were the ones with TV shows revealing the atrocities the USA was committing that led to our GIs being denigrated by a few Americans.


Few? What do you consider a few? Hundreds? Or thousands? to me a 'few' would be maybe dozens. Few enuf that it wouldn't be in the news everynight for weeks/months.
The horrible treatment of those returning went on all over the country. There were far more idiots denigrating our troops than a 'few'. Any monument to protesters who turned into idiots should be a pile of manure, IMHO.


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## Marinea (Apr 15, 2011)

The Civil Rights movement, the Vietnam War, and Apartheid are three "causes" I can think of off the top of my head that have ended, in some part due to protests, in my lifetime.

Where are their monuments? I see the ones for the first two daily- no gasps of shock or anger when an African American sits down at a restaurant, and men, older now, still among us, who might have died before they were as old as their grandchildren are now.

Every day there are battles and protests fought. Good people railing against bad things- big and small. I believe that those who fight those fights for true reasons never give a thought to anything beyond the change they seek. Once that change is achieved, what could the non-fighters give them that would matter, that would be worthy of their sacrifice? The only monument I can envision is to do everything we can to make sure that what they gained is not lost.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> Few? What do you consider a few? Hundreds? Or thousands? to me a 'few' would be maybe dozens. Few enuf that it wouldn't be in the news everynight for weeks/months.
> The horrible treatment of those returning went on all over the country. There were far more idiots denigrating our troops than a 'few'. Any monument to protesters who turned into idiots should be a pile of manure, IMHO.



I think it was a few dozen, news is made by the rare not the commonplace. 

What I don't understand is why a certain group must always turn a discussion about anything remotely connected to war or rights into a serious of " "your opinion doesn't count cause troops were wronged. "

I wanted to talk about memorializing good actions done by good people. 
Could we stick to that ?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I think it was a few dozen, news is made by the rare not the commonplace.
> 
> What I don't understand is why a certain group must always turn a discussion about anything remotely connected to war or rights into a serious of " "your opinion doesn't count cause troops were wronged. "
> 
> ...


You can get all the monuments you want if you have enough money to do it or can convince other people to give for it. Why not build a monuments for bad things also. I was there and it wasn't a few dozen it was hundreds. Things seem to disappear when you grow up. It was so bad that you never wore a uniform off base with out encounter with war protesters. But of course the few tat were against the military might have followed me around but I doubt that. If they did they moved a lot in several states.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> What I don't understand is why a certain group must always turn a discussion about anything remotely connected to war or rights into a serious of " "your opinion doesn't count cause troops were wronged. "
> 
> I wanted to talk about memorializing good actions done by good people.
> Could we stick to that ?


Your opinion counts, it's just wrong.

You started a thread intentionally baiting people. There's a word for that. Don't complain when people post their disdain for your heroes.

As to the "atrocities", unless you believe John Kerry (and you probably do) there was one such documented instance, and they were court martialed and sent to prison. You might do a little research on what was common practice for the Viet Cong/NVA in their treatment of the civilian population. Atrocities were their stock in trade.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Ozarks Tom said:


> As to the "atrocities", unless you believe John Kerry (and you probably do) there was one such documented instance, and they were court martialed and sent to prison. You might do a little research on what was common practice for the Viet Cong/NVA in their treatment of the civilian population. Atrocities were their stock in trade.


That's how you run a war, isn't it?

You don't need to sell me on the ugliness of war.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Nevada said:


> That's how you run a war, isn't it?
> 
> You don't need to sell me on the ugliness of war.


Would you mind explaining what in the world you're talking about?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Would you mind explaining what in the world you're talking about?


Name a war without atrocities.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> You started a thread intentionally baiting people. There's a word for that. Don't complain when people post their disdain for your heroes.
> .



NO ! I tried my best to avoid the type of contraversey you mean. 
As a ardent military supporter you have no idea of the restrictions we who don't belive every service member to be infallible face on this forum. 
Just because someone has a opinion different from yours doesn't mean it's baiting to express it.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> NO ! I tried my best to avoid the type of contraversey you mean.
> As a ardent military supporter you have no idea of the restrictions we who don't belive every service member to be infallible face on this forum.
> Just because someone has a opinion different from yours doesn't mean it's baiting to express it.


You can re wright history but those that grew up then it will not change things. As you said the Militarily brainwash people some more than others.Since you said you were in the Army it must have affected you more than some others.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Old Vet said:


> You can re wright history but those that grew up then it will not change things.


You don't remember it the way I do.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You don't remember it the way I do.


I was grown up 19 years old you were a teenager14 years old at best and just a student I remember because it happen to me. I was spit on and called a baby killer and it effect me until today.You remember it different because it didn't happen to you.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Old Vet said:


> I was grown up 19 years old you were a teenager14 years old at best and just a student I remember because it happen to me. I was spit on and called a baby killer and it effect me until today.You remember it different because it didn't happen to you.


Old Vet,
The same thing happened to people I know in my wife's family.
It was terrible and still hurts them to this day. I can't imagine being a soldier serving your country and returning to that. I think it would be even harder for me if I had been drafted like so many were, and it wasn't even my choice to go in the first place.
That's what makes it so despicable to me.

It was such a terrible time in this country, it helps to remind myself in light of today's troubles, we've all seen worse........and survived in spite of it all.:grouphug:

I was still a kid myself. My earliest memories are watching the evening news with Huntley and Brinkley listening to the daily body counts, riots and protests.

Please don't think that everyone who hated that war and hates war in general, hates the young men who went to fight it.
I only hate you had to do it.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Old Vet,
> The same thing happened to people I know in my wife's family.
> It was terrible and still hurts them to this day. I can't imagine being a soldier serving your country and returning to that. I think it would be even harder for me if I had been drafted like so many were, and it wasn't even my choice to go in the first place.
> That's what makes it so despicable to me.
> ...


I was drafted but spent 21 years in the Army or the Army National Guard. I can remember when I was in the National Guard being spit on and called a baby killer and thrown out of a place that I stopped by to eat lunch because of the uproar by other partitions. I hate war but I see the need for it most of the time. I have never run into a Vet that likes war.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Old Vet said:


> I have never run into a Vet that likes war.


Now that you mention it, neither have I.......



And on THAT note, maybe what I said before, about there being monuments to those who fought for peace being all around, yet unnoticed, is still true.

Would the OP concede that among all of those "war monuments" we built, many, most or even all of those fallen soldiers were longing for peace when they died?


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I honestly didn't have the patience to read the whole thread... are we allowed to say "butt hurt" here?

It's this simple. If you want a monument... build one. Commission it. If you want it on the tax payers dime, convince everyone (or enough people) it's worthy.

Other than that, I'm not sure what this thread is about?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> Old Vet,
> 
> The same thing happened to people I know in my wife's family.
> 
> ...



Like yourself, I remember the daily casualty count, I remember the war existed and I remember how those 3 phone calls changed my family. I remember the emptiness of knowing one was no longer with us, I remember the fear that one would not live and I remember the fear of not knowing how bad one was injured. 

I also remember the two that came home being very different people. Nobody cared that what they had seen or what changed them. Their country rejected them because they were assumed to be something they weren't. 

They were simply young men who had no choice but do what their country asked. Neither wants rewards or accolades but they sure would have appreciated it if someone had understood they weren't bad guys.

I guess the activists wanted to stop that but it sure seems like they forgot about the real casualties.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Your opinion counts, it's just wrong.
> 
> You started a thread intentionally baiting people. There's a word for that. Don't complain when people post their disdain for your heroes.
> 
> As to the "atrocities", unless you believe John Kerry (and you probably do) there was *one such documented instance, and they were court martialed and sent to prison*. You might do a little research on what was common practice for the Viet Cong/NVA in their treatment of the civilian population. Atrocities were their stock in trade.


Would that be the My Lai massacre?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I also remember the two that came home being very different people. Nobody cared that what they had seen or what changed them. Their country rejected them because they were assumed to be something they weren't.


Vietnam vets weren't revered as a hero fighting force the way WWII vets were, but that was mostly because of the way the war was covered. Vietnam war footage on the evening news was very graphic, unlike the sanitized & patriotic news-reel coverage of WWII. People were also a lot less sure of what we were doing in Vietnam, so Vietnam wasn't seen as fighting for our own freedom the way WWII was.

But Vietnam vets weren't villains, they were just under-appreciated. I cant blame them for being bitter about that, since their sacrifice was huge. The under-appreciation wasn't fair, but there's nobody to blame. It was just the reality.

It's been said that WWII was the last "good" war, primarily due to the introduction of the TV. Before TV most of what Americans saw was put together as press released news-reels by the defense department that were shown in movie theaters between feature films, so they were able to promote the progress and virtues of a war pretty much any way they wanted. WWII correspondents working for news services usually released printed columns and editorials, along with a few still photos, which had a lot less impact than the graphic movie footage aired during the Vietnam war.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Ozarks Tom said:


> I won't argue the pros/cons of the war, but I'd like to know when we "as a nation" made that decision. I guess I missed that vote.
> 
> Insult their bravery? Mobs aren't brave, especially when they're made up of draft age guys and their girlfriends. Now, if someone had tried spitting on me, that would have been brave.


I remember young college students wearing tattered military jackets calling vets - well, I don't want to repeat it. But it took zero courage to go in a herd with your drugged up buddies to scream at military coming off planes. The military warned its soldiers against wearing uniforms off base. Courage my- well, I don't want to say that either. They were self serving idiots who thought they knew everything, having been protected and coddled their whole lives. And were subsequently in charge of the longest period of continuous war in US history.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

seedspreader said:


> I honestly didn't have the patience to read the whole thread... are we allowed to say "butt hurt" here?
> 
> It's this simple. If you want a monument... build one. Commission it. If you want it on the tax payers dime, convince everyone (or enough people) it's worthy.
> 
> Other than that, I'm not sure what this thread is about?


I still think it must be about ...trolling? A joke? Getting a rise outta vets/patriots who dislike what Fonda did?


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

We were on a bus going from the airport to the Oakland separation center, where we were to muster out. On the freeway a group of about 20 "protesters" were laying in wait for an Army bus, so they could jump out and stop traffic. What their purpose was I'll never know. Anyway, the bus driver had apparently had enough of their shenanigans from previous trips, and opened the bus door saying "anybody want off?". 

Tell me again about those "brave" protesters.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Ozarks Tom said:


> We were on a bus going from the airport to the Oakland separation center, where we were to muster out. On the freeway a group of about 20 "protesters" were laying in wait for an Army bus, so they could jump out and stop traffic. What their purpose was I'll never know. Anyway, the bus driver had apparently had enough of their shenanigans from previous trips, and opened the bus door saying "anybody want off?".
> 
> Tell me again about those "brave" protesters.


I'm sorry you went thru so much. DH only had a few instances...yup, guess they were really 'brave'...jumped in front of the bus! Shoulda had a monument...


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> I remember young college students wearing tattered military jackets calling vets - well, I don't want to repeat it. But it took zero courage to go in a herd with your drugged up buddies to scream at military coming off planes. The military warned its soldiers against wearing uniforms off base. Courage my- well, I don't want to say that either. They were self serving idiots who thought they knew everything, having been protected and coddled their whole lives. And were subsequently in charge of the longest period of continuous war in US history.


Yeah, but we ended the war.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Old Vet said:


> You can re wright history but those that grew up then it will not change things. As you said the Militarily brainwash people some more than others.Since you said you were in the Army it must have affected you more than some others.


What rewrite?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

There was one change that came about from the Vietnam war and related protests. The voting age was lowered to 18. In recognition of the fact if 18-year-olds could be drafted and sent off to die at the wish of the politicians, they could at least have a vote in electing them.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

seedspreader said:


> It's this simple. If you want a monument... build one. Commission it. If you want it on the tax payers dime, convince everyone (or enough people) it's worthy.
> 
> Other than that, I'm not sure what this thread is about?


Monuments take a lot of work and people publicly behind it. See what one early poster said about the process.

That's what this thread was about.
But its hard to build that kind of support when there is a group allowed to abuse you publicly for just Bringing up the subject.
Its hard to build that support when another group Hijacks every thread no the subject to make it about them.
Its hard to build that support when every member of the group to be honored is tarred with the worst person affiliated in any ways actions.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep, Life, Work, and Hard........all 4 letter words.
Welcome to the club.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Yeah, but we ended the war.


What a self centered vision where you could even arrive at such an off the wall conclusion. You just jumped on a band wagon that had already lost its wheels. You were just the noise of the crash.
What ended the war was a result of a vague goal that was impossible to achieve. No one can save a person or country that doesn't want that salvation. Kill someone to give them a better life is the ultimate oxymoron.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Monuments take a lot of work and people publicly behind it. See what one early poster said about the process.
> 
> That's what this thread was about.
> But its hard to build that kind of support when there is a group allowed to abuse you publicly for just Bringing up the subject.
> ...


You realize this isn't the "Monuments Office" right?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> What a self centered vision where you could even arrive at such an off the wall conclusion. You just jumped on a band wagon that had already lost its wheels. You were just the noise of the crash.
> What ended the war was a result of a vague goal that was impossible to achieve. No one can save a person or country that doesn't want that salvation. Kill someone to give them a better life is the ultimate oxymoron.


That not what I was being told at the time by war supporters. I was told that Vietnam was another corner of the world that we might lose to communism, and that if we lost Vietnam that the communists would advance south across the DMZ, turn left, and then march down Main Street USA.

I pointed out that our purpose in being there wasn't clear, and that we had no idea what victory might look like. Was supporters couldn't explain it, but they were sure that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Bandwagon? When I started protesting LBJ the bandwagon was all about supporting the war. Now you say I was right all along?

Are you SURE you were there? What you're saying doesn't sound anything like what I experienced.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Yeah, but we ended the war.


Please tell us you dont actually believe that!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Monuments for protesters? Is this like Trophys for those that come in last place? Like obama's peezee prize?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

7thswan said:


> Monuments for protesters? Is this like Trophys for those that come in last place? Like obama's peezee prize?


Funny. Bill O'Reilly seems to think protests are a big deal. He calls it war zone experience.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

My last words on the subject.

Starting a thread praising draft dodgers, the soon to be drafted, and others who worked to undermine morale both in a war zone and at home, on a forum heavily weighted to conservatives - and further, heavily weighted to older conservatives i.e. people with first hand knowledge - is a pure example of trolling.

Thanks for the exercise, I'm outa here.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Funny. Bill O'Reilly seems to think protests are a big deal. He calls it war zone experience.


I never knew you cared about what Bill O'Reilly said. I know I don't. LOL, seriously dude, you need to up that game. That's argument style is so 2000's.

:icecream:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

seedspreader said:


> I never knew you cared about what Bill O'Reilly said. I know I don't. LOL, seriously dude, you need to up that game. That's argument style is so 2000's.
> 
> :icecream:


I'm not going to fight it. I'll just consider my antiwar protesting 'combat experience' and we're even.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Nevada said:


> I'm not going to fight it. I'll just consider my antiwar protesting 'combat experience' and we're even.


I can't believe you would say that to someone who actually has been in combat. About as disrespectful as it gets.

I can believe you took the cheap shot at O'Reilly, that was in character, but the above just made my mouth fall open. Shame on you.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> I can't believe you would say that to someone who actually has been in combat. About as disrespectful as it gets.


I thought the same about Bill O'Reilly claiming that his protest coverage was combat experience, but evidently he set the standard. Why is protest involvement combat experience for O'Reilly but not me? You can't have it both ways.

Now, if you're willing to say that O'Reilly is a liar and was disrespectful then I'll gladly drop my claim of combat experience.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Nevada said:


> I thought the same about Bill O'Reilly claiming that his protest coverage was combat experience, but evidently he set the standard. Why is protest involvement combat experience for O'Reilly but not me? You can't have it both ways.
> 
> Now, if you're willing to say that O'Reilly is a liar and was disrespectful then _*I'll gladly drop my claim of combat experience*_.


Might as well drop it now for all the good it'll do you.

_*I don't know if you were ever in the military and, if you were, saw and participated in combat*_, but until you can say you took the oath, donned the uniform, passed the training, was dropped in the middle of a WAR ZONE, waded armed through the blood and muck with other armed military personnel, and stood in the cross hairs of a true enemy fully intent upon killing you at any given moment, then you, sir, have no combat experience. 

If you did, in fact, meet that criteria, then I'll agree with you that you have combat experience, otherwise, if all you did was was raise your voice and shake your fist, then the most you can say you have is...well, nothing actually, except, perhaps, the dim remnants of the lofty ideals of part of a generation that threw in the proverbial towel and conformed to the very mindset they purportedly held in disdain...very few of you continued to "walk the walk" much past the mid-70s.

Don't know about Bill O'Reilly's experience or lack thereof and don't care...he's not on my radar.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

hippygirl said:


> Might as well drop it now for all the good it'll do you.
> 
> _*I don't know if you were ever in the military and, if you were, saw and participated in combat*_, but until you can say you took the oath, donned the uniform, passed the training, was dropped in the middle of a WAR ZONE, waded armed through the blood and muck with other armed military personnel, and stood in the cross hairs of a true enemy fully intent upon killing you at any given moment, then you, sir, have no combat experience.
> 
> ...


It is better if you keep your mouth shut and let people think of you as a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

hippygirl said:


> was dropped in the middle of a WAR ZONE, .





You might want to rethink that part of your definition so you don't exclude our Nam vets, Nam was a "Conflict"


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You don't remember it the way I do.


Google can be your friend when your memory fails. 
I find it strange when non-military forget what has happened...even tho you may have been too young to read the news, some would've come to you by osmosis, something could've been heard...you're the same age as my DH who served in 'Nam & was spat on when he returned.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Funny. Bill O'Reilly seems to think protests are a big deal. He calls it war zone experience.


Bill O'Really? Just another jerk that pretends to represent real people.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Monuments take a lot of work and people publicly behind it. See what one early poster said about the process.
> 
> That's what this thread was about.
> But its hard to build that kind of support when there is a group allowed to abuse you publicly for just Bringing up the subject.
> ...


Perhaps you shouldn't have opened the wounds. Perhaps you should've began by showing links of protests that did not turn into spitting contests & Fonda worships. B/c from where I sit, all I know about are the pics of Fonda on the enemy side, of Fonda ratting out POWs who passed a note to the Red Cross folks, of Fonda on radio, of hate-filled people screaming at vets, spitting, throwing rocks. Yet you think you are abused in this thread? Where? Cannot we ask ?s of you about what you intended? I'd think twice if I intended to shut out a vet or 2 who had their 2 cents to add to something as controversial as this. It is a fact that Fonda IS associated w/most Nam protests. How could she not be?
Maybe you could look at Kent State U. Betcha there's something there for those, they were the only deserving ones, IMHO.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I can't believe you would say that to someone who actually has been in combat. About as disrespectful as it gets.
> 
> I can believe you took the cheap shot at O'Reilly, that was in character, but the above just made my mouth fall open. Shame on you.


Post of the day award.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I thought the same about Bill O'Reilly claiming that his protest coverage was combat experience, but evidently he set the standard. Why is protest involvement combat experience for O'Reilly but not me? You can't have it both ways.
> 
> Now, if you're willing to say that O'Reilly is a liar and was disrespectful then I'll gladly drop my claim of combat experience.


just another poor attempt to try and change wording, change the way EVERY correspondant wrote about certain missions. But carry on, everytime you say this, you show your...um...true colors.

How come it wasn't a lie when Idiotincharge said THIRTY-TWO TIMES: "If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance"!! 'Bout as relevant to this as O'Reilly.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

hippygirl said:


> Might as well drop it now for all the good it'll do you.
> 
> _*I don't know if you were ever in the military and, if you were, saw and participated in combat*_, but until you can say you took the oath, donned the uniform, passed the training, was dropped in the middle of a WAR ZONE, waded armed through the blood and muck with other armed military personnel, and stood in the cross hairs of a true enemy fully intent upon killing you at any given moment, then you, sir, have no combat experience.
> 
> ...


Ah, Hip, save it. IF he'd ever gone thru even a BIT of that, he'd just come out saying he REALLY wasn't in at all, like Bergdahl, the CONTRACT just wasn't there...


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Nevada said:


> I thought the same about Bill O'Reilly claiming that his protest coverage was combat experience, but evidently he set the standard. Why is protest involvement combat experience for O'Reilly but not me? You can't have it both ways.
> 
> Now, if you're willing to say that O'Reilly is a liar and was disrespectful then I'll gladly drop my claim of combat experience.


Ah, the old "they did it first" logic. Popular with children. 

News flash - you stooped lower than O'Reilly because it is personal interaction here.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Bandwagon? When I started protesting LBJ the bandwagon was all about supporting the war. Now you say I was right all along?
> 
> Are you SURE you were there? What you're saying doesn't sound anything like what I experienced.


What I do know- you, until now, have post about a few things- about how clever you were to have seen the housing crisis involved in the last recession coming, moved to a low tax place, and made money off of it, how you have taken advantage of Obamacare to get essentually health insurance that others pay for and are now buying gold to again be successful when the inflation occurs that was caused by so many such as yourself feeding at the trough of greedy self aggrandizement. Now you have added that you think yourself again to be a hero in your own mind for protesting, apparently with violence, against a war that stood to put you personally in danger of being drafted. 
There is one thing that all these things have in common- you are very, very good at supporting what is personally advantageous to you, rejoice at your own cleverness when what you chose to tell us has harmed others but not you, and resent like heck when others point out that taking advantage of other people's pain in not the morally superior thing you think it is.
From my point of view, what you do is advocate for taxing me to pay for what is to your advantage, thereby causing me to probably have less income, after taxes I pay to support you and myself, than you have essentially tax free, using my money to buy the gold that you see as a hedge against the inevitable inflation the policies you support cause. At least you never mention anything other than your cleverness.
Now it appears that your prefer to dismiss lightly the dangers of military service of others because it lessens the shine you want to attach to yourself for the slight risk you took in opposing it. Not that you seem to admit the selfish parts of that position. The unwillingness to admit to that component seems to confirm its importance.
You redirect away inconvenient facts that tarnish, to shine up your self image by ignoring the harm following the wake of your cleverness by dismissing any one else's complains of harm or success. You walk down the street of life keeping an eye out for an advantage, thinking how clever you are to pick up the wallet that someone else has lost. Such single minded focus would be admirable if it was in the cause of others but it is ugly when in is in the cause of self.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Now it appears that your prefer to dismiss lightly the dangers of military service of others because it lessens the shine you want to attach to yourself for the slight risk you took in opposing it.


I didn't set the standard. Bill O'Reilly did. In fact I never dreamed of calling protest experience war zone duty until Bill O'Reilly claimed it for himself. I'm just going along with him.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> You might want to rethink that part of your definition so you don't exclude our Nam vets, Nam was a "Conflict"


Oh good Lord!

I don't know...standing in the middle of a piece of ground with bullets, bombs, and all manner of projectiles being intentionally hurled towards someone by a united enemy sound pretty much like a war zone to me!

I don't care how the actions/events in Vietnam were _*labeled*_ in an effort to make them less unappealing to the masses, the actions on the ground and in the air were consistent with what is commonly referred to as war.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

hippygirl said:


> Oh good Lord!
> 
> I don't know...standing in the middle of a piece of ground with bullets, bombs, and all manner of projectiles being intentionally hurled towards someone by a united enemy sound pretty much like a war zone to me!
> 
> I don't care how the actions/events in Vietnam were _*labeled*_ in an effort to make them less unappealing to the masses, the actions on the ground and in the air were consistent with what is commonly referred to as war.


It was combat for sure, and you could even call it a war zone, but there was no declaration of war by our country.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Nevada said:


> It was combat for sure, and you could even call it a war zone, but there was no declaration of war by our country.


Yes, Nevada, I know...I was referring to American Stand's remark about my previous post where I used a generic term for an area in which armed conflict occurs...aka a "war zone".


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

hippygirl said:


> Oh good Lord!
> 
> I don't know...standing in the middle of a piece of ground with bullets, bombs, and all manner of projectiles being intentionally hurled towards someone by a united enemy sound pretty much like a war zone to me!
> .


So you think the protesters are qualified war Vets? :shrug:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> So you think the protesters are qualified war Vets? :shrug:


As all destructive mobs are too? You can't get where you want that way. I doubt you can get there at all because it doesn't exist.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> So you think the protesters are qualified war Vets? :shrug:


Alternate reality? Maybe it would be more productive for your psyche to just stop digging while you can still climb out of the hole.:shrug:


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Um not my words or beliefs ,hers.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Alternate reality? Maybe it would be more productive for your psyche to just stop digging while you can still climb out of the hole.:shrug:


Yes, alternate reality. Remember, it's not me who suggests that protests are war zones, it's Bill O'Reilly and Fox News. I have to admit that "alternate reality" is a good way to put it.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Yes, alternate reality. Remember, it's not me who suggests that protests are war zones, it's Bill O'Reilly and Fox News. I have to admit that "alternate reality" is a good way to put it.


So you are basing this whole thing on something Bill O'Reilly said? You are joking right?


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> So you think the protesters are qualified war Vets? :shrug:


In a word, no.



AmericanStand said:


> Um not my words or beliefs ,hers.


Good try...have a cookie.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

hippygirl said:


> I don't know...standing in the middle of a piece of ground with bullets, bombs, and all manner of projectiles being intentionally hurled towards someone by a united enemy sound pretty much like a war zone to me!.


Hippy girl is this how you defined "War" ?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Hippy girl is this how you defined "War" ?


I guess you could have a happy world around and no body is shooting anything. That is is what a war is about when you are in a safe zone.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Old Vet said:


> I guess you could have a happy world around and no body is shooting anything. That is is what a war is about when you are in a safe zone.



huh?
Once again I encourage you to write your comments in English as it is commonly understood.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> huh?
> Once again I encourage you to write your comments in English as it is commonly understood.


You read it right. You want to be dumb so you posted this?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Old Vet said:


> You read it right. You want to be dumb so you posted this?


Careful. Direct the argument towards the post, not the member.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Careful. Direct the argument towards the post, not the member.


I did.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It was combat for sure, and you could even call it a war zone, but there was no declaration of war by our country.


I see.
So, next time anyone says: "Iraq WAR" we better correct them. Or: "Viet Nam WAR". OR "Gulf WAR". or "Korean WAR". 
Please Nevada, stick to your own rules once in a while.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> So you think the protesters are qualified war Vets? :shrug:


Do you? Seems as you do. 
I guess I'll ask, since its still not clear to me: do you think Fonda should be in the 'monument'? Just her followers? If not, how will you decide who's glorified here? Which demonstrators were ok?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

no really said:


> So you are basing this whole thing on something Bill O'Reilly said? You are joking right?


Some cannot get past that we have an Idiotincharge so they'll harp on a tv commentator. They think it'll get to us. When all we care is a rats behind.
Not sure why he's not harping on Brian Williams. The total lies outta that guys mouth are legend. Nothing like calling something what all correspondents do. 
But it still amazes me that the left says NADA about all the lies from this admin. Ever seen our lib friends here comment on any? They have to go into the koolade party to figure out what to say, then when there's NO good explanation, we hear crickets.
The latest carp on Bergahl shoulda been the last straw.


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