# Turning pre-built sheds into livable space



## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

We're finally on back on our homestead after wandering around with Uncle Sam for about six years. Unfortunately, the mobile home we planned on our adult (but still at home) children living in is destroyed. Of course we didn't find out about the termites until we'd already spent several thousand fixing other things in it...

I've decided to go with turning sheds into "bedrooms" for now, and in the future, one will become my craft room and the other likely a laundry/gym. (Or if someone is still using it as a bedroom, then we'll probably build or buy another for the craft/gym/laundry.) One adult kid will live "with" us forever, his current plan is to save money for a few years and then put another mobile home on the property. The other kid (19) will probably move out in a year or two.

The sheds are ordered, and I appreciate the advice in the other thread! We ordered two Stor All Deluxe 12'x30', and they are due to arrive in about 3 weeks. I'm trying to get my order together for Lowe's so they can deliver the stuff for the interior about the same time the sheds arrive. I hope to have the sheds livable within a month of arrival, mainly because we are all living in a 32' RV right now.... Tenants are still in our house for a few months, but we are living on our property.

None of us have ever done anything like this before, so I need/would appreciate lots and lots of advice and knowledge from folks who know what they're doing LOL.

About the sheds:

12' x 30'
Each 30' side has a 3' x 3' window, one 12' end has the standard 4' door, one 12' end has a 3' door with windows in the upper (shown in their cabin pics)
Will be on cement blocks for a while, possibly cement slabs in the future
16" OC walls and floor
Non-treated 3/4" plywood floor
8' walls
NO electric/lights/outlets from factory
Photos below to show what we are starting with
Planning to follow the advice in the other thread to put 6mil black plastic on the ground under and flashing on the cement blocks

I know I need electric, insulation, and something to make walls/ceilings. I'm not sure how much electric I need, and whether we can do any ourselves (never dealt with electric AT ALL). Currently I plan to hire an electrician for all of it, but if I can *safely* do some of it myself, that would be great.

Electric needs:
Teen boys...1-2 ceiling fans, video games, big screen TVs, tablets and laptops to be charged, gaming desktop computers, lighting, possibly stove/oven in the future, some sort of AC (wall mounted or window unit?), and some kind of heat, microwave, fridge, maybe a toaster oven or other cooking appliances. They're well aware of overloading circuits and such from RV living, and I do want a fuse/breaker box and several circuits(>) installed in each shed. The sheds will be within a few (20 or so) feet of the meter/pole. That pole only supplies the RV and our large workshop/barn. The house is on a separate pole/meter.

Plumbing:
Have not decided whether we will be converting these to full tiny homes (we think at least one will eventually have a bathroom and kitchen area), so for one, if possible, I'd like to make the holes for toilet and shower and just plug them or whatever in the meantime. I know I would at least like to hook up a sink in one of them, but I don't plan to do hot water at this time. Not sure the legality of running grey water onto the ground? but if possible, I'd like to put a sink in one, possibly just by attaching to a spigot nearby?

Septic:
Not available at this time. One of many reasons we decided to go this route instead of just buying another mobile home. One of the many SNAFUs in our original plan is we discovered the drain field for the (now defunct) mobile home has disappeared and is no longer attached to the mobile home's septic tank  I know composting toilets are available, but the plan at this time is for them to just use the house bathrooms.

Walls and ceiling:
They want to be able to paint. Is drywall my best bet? And if so, is this good stuff or should I be using something different?

Insulation:
There's nothing between the metal sides and the 2x4 studs. What insulation would be best? (Hot Alabama summers, mild winters) Do I need to add some sort of vapor or water barrier? What about the roof insulation? Do I need vents? How would I insulate the floors? 

Waterproofing the plywood floor:
Is there anything I can paint/apply to the plywood to waterproof it? An elderly, sometimes incontinent cat will be living in one. I plan to use LVP down the road, but was thinking linoleum or paint to save money for now. I don't want to destroy the floor/studs with cat urine, though.

There will be egress from both ends, haven't seen the windows yet (I upgraded to larger windows than the displays have), so not sure if adults can fit through them. Plan to use two smoke detectors in each, not hardwired.

At least one ceiling fan in each, possibly two. I currently have a 450 sq ft portable AC unit I will probably use in one for this year, but I'd like something else for long term. The GE window units get good reviews for AC, or would I be better off to look for some kind of wall unit like hotels use? Hubby also wants to look into whatever the things were that were in his CHUs during his deployments. What about heating?

Whew, if you made it this far, thank you. I appreciate any and all advice as we tackle this project that I suspect will be a huge learning experience for all of us LOL.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)




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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I noticed a potential problem easily remedied at this point. There is no header over either window and the roof support is directly over the windows. If it were me I would get that taken care of first. Then proceed with wiring, rough in any plumbing lines that you think you might want someday. I'd then insulate with fiberglass batts with the vapor barrier, cover with half inch plywood. You can hang drywall, and paint, or be creative with all sorts of wall and ceiling coverings. Burlap, egg crates, various lumber, or combinations.


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## Esteban29304 (Apr 29, 2003)

I am presuming that you have already checked with your area building codes, for these sheds to be lived in ??


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Ah, now there you go with those building codes.
My FIL can remember a couple with 4 kids that lived in an actual cave outside of town. For what it is worth, he said it was roomy and the wife kept it clean. One of the nicer caves he had been in.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I noticed a potential problem easily remedied at this point. There is no header over either window and the roof support is directly over the windows. If it were me I would get that taken care of first. Then proceed with wiring, rough in any plumbing lines that you think you might want someday. I'd then insulate with fiberglass batts with the vapor barrier, cover with half inch plywood. You can hang drywall, and paint, or be creative with all sorts of wall and ceiling coverings. Burlap, egg crates, various lumber, or combinations.


I need to use plywood before drywall? (Told you I’m a bit clueless lol). If so, can I just do plywood and paint it and skip the drywall? This is a different size than what we ordered, so I will post good interior pics when they arrive for you all to advise me on anything structural that needs to be fixed first. Thank you for mentioning that, so I don’t just jump right in!



Esteban29304 said:


> I am presuming that you have already checked with your area building codes, for these sheds to be lived in ??


Nope. The lovely benefit of living in a town with 500 people is the Town Hall is always closed when I need to ask questions. I’m calling today to ask about SHED permits...



GTX63 said:


> Ah, now there you go with those building codes.
> My FIL can remember a couple with 4 kids that lived in an actual cave outside of town. For what it is worth, he said it was room and the wife kept it clean. One of the nicer caves he had been in.


^ this if necessary


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

So I called Town Hall and....

I don’t have to do anything

The only rules are for how far commercial barns and chicken houses have to be from the neighbors. No building permits required. (Kinda suspected this, from looking at the county stuff, but if my “plan” wasn’t approved, I was going to do it anyway)


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

No, you don't "need" to put up plywood, but I would. It will make your building a lot better, strength wise as well as adding to the air blowing through making heating and cooling easier. With the metal siding and no plywood or osb on the exterior I would certainly want it on the inside. Plus I notice a boy in the photo. Girls aren't quite as prone to knock holes in walls. You could paint the plywood, but it never looks as good as drywall. Lots of options, all depends on your tastes and wants.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Boys will be living in them but they aren’t prone to damaging stuff thankfully. One decided to punch a wall about six months ago and when maintenance fixed it, he showed him that he missed a stud by about a millimeter so said kid (he’s the one who will be with us forever) learned that lesson LOL. The only damage I am concerned about is cat urine because cats are jerks haha. 

Silly question, if I just do plywood, could I use joint compound to “seal” the seams and smooth rough spots? Budget-wise, I would prefer not to do plywood and drywall if I can avoid it. Structurally, it sounds like I’d prefer plywood, though. 

The little guy in the picture won’t be in the sheds much as the brothers find him extremely annoying LOL, but he’s a pretty calm kiddo anyway. He will be in the main house with me and hubby, though. I have no idea why I bought a three bedroom house when I had five kids


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Hmmm. Looking at Lowe’s, other than price, one of the reasons I wanted drywall was the fire resistance. How much of a difference will drywall make (vs plywood) in the structural soundness? I don’t expect these to survive tornadoes, of course. What about mold and the building breathing and humidity and such? Is 1/2” drywall going to dissolve? Sorry, I want to make the best decisions within my budget, and changing to plywood will more than double my expense, so I want to make sure it’s worth it.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Catalytic said:


> Hmmm. Looking at Lowe’s, other than price, one of the reasons I wanted drywall was the fire resistance. How much of a difference will drywall make (vs plywood) in the structural soundness? I don’t expect these to survive tornadoes, of course. What about mold and the building breathing and humidity and such? Is 1/2” drywall going to dissolve? Sorry, I want to make the best decisions within my budget, and changing to plywood will more than double my expense, so I want to make sure it’s worth it.


I wouldn't go with drywall in the shed. The exterior walls being just sheet metal will cause the building to flex in a wind. I would insulate, then vapor barrier, and ply (tighten up build). Then I'd just paint ply or throw on panel board. Hopefully the roof has a ridge vent. 
I'm a fan of roxul...better than pink of so many levels. That being said, getting someone to spray foam the sucker would be ideal (no poly required). With a metal clad exterior, your going to have condensation issues, but spray foam will fix that (no air space, no condensation). 
I would do any plumbing rough-in first, then electrical (get a smokey in asap). 
Agree with YH on header over window...odd why there is none. That being said, it looks like a bear to install, given I see no jack studs. I would even beef up stud directly below gable end support for ridge beam. 

What you have is a utility shed that needs a bit of tlc to make it comfortably habitable. 
I'm not a fan of window mount AC units, but to each their own. I'd put in a 4" bathroom vent out the side, and hook up a portable AC unit to it. I used that method last summer as a stop-gap measure (I hope to get a split air heat pump in by next summer).


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Catalytic said:


> Boys will be living in them but they aren’t prone to damaging stuff thankfully. One decided to punch a wall about six months ago and when maintenance fixed it, he showed him that he missed a stud by about a millimeter so said kid (he’s the one who will be with us forever) learned that lesson LOL. The only damage I am concerned about is cat urine because cats are jerks haha.
> 
> Silly question, if I just do plywood, could I use joint compound to “seal” the seams and smooth rough spots? Budget-wise, I would prefer not to do plywood and drywall if I can avoid it. Structurally, it sounds like I’d prefer plywood, though.
> 
> The little guy in the picture won’t be in the sheds much as the brothers find him extremely annoying LOL, but he’s a pretty calm kiddo anyway. He will be in the main house with me and hubby, though. I have no idea why I bought a three bedroom house when I had five kids


Yes, you can tape the seams on plywood. And skim coat to smooth out the defects, but still won't be as nice a job as drywall. If your budget won't allow both I would go with the plywood. The extra strength will add years of life to your building.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

We have been living in a 16x40 for awhile. There's 4 of us. 
We made every attempt to make it as functionaly homey as possible. And best of all ITS PAID FOR!
You can do it as well. 

3 bedroom 1 bathroom and the liva-dina-kitchen room.

We put it on 40 peirs, with blocks up to level, 200a panel, window AC/heat pump, but i just bought a new ptac to replace it, raised the ceilings, did drywall, cellulose insulation, kitchen cabinets are the unfinished oak pre fabbed ones from surplus warehouse, bathroom is the toilet, stand up corner glass shower, sink cabinet, stacked front load washer/dryer, and a linen closet.
No closets in the bedrooms. We use the white wire rack kits from lowes for clothes hanging with shelvs. 
We went with the state required 2000 gal septic. 
Its tightish, but its home and comfortable. Every one has their own space.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

bobp said:


> We have been living in a 16x40 for awhile. There's 4 of us.
> We made every attempt to make it as functionaly homey as possible. And best of all ITS PAID FOR!
> You can do it as well.
> 
> ...


Your place is sounding good to me about now.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Can you afford spray foam ?
If you can frame up a new wall of 2x4 on two foot centers Inside the current walls flat the studs every 4 feet and have 6 inches of foam sprayed in AFTER you run your rough wiring. 
Get a good book and wire all your own outlets group two sets of four on Either side of a stud where you kids want their computers. Plan on additional outlets about every four feet. 

You shouldn’t have to drill or cut to run your wires and you should have no continuous wood path from indoors to out. Should cool easy. 
Add a pourch on the south side for shade. Insulate the Ceiling not the roof. Add roof vents at the ridge or ends.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Install linoleum with it curved up at the side walls
Roll it out first on the lawn Then roll it the short way drag it in the door and roll it out so it curves Up the side walls. 
Don’t cut it hang vapor barrier and sheet rock over it. In stall sheet rock 1/2 above the floor use spacers run the sheets up and down. With the seams on the flated studs.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

You have a load bearing ridge so the header (above the windows) in this case is optional. Its not carrying much load. It would only cost about 20 bucks to put one in if it makes you feel comfortable though. What worries me more is like Meli says the support for that ridge in the way of studs. Something else I am concerned about is the door we dont see. THAT needs a header as it is supporting that load bearing ridge above it. Can we see a pic of that side please? 

Consensus here is plywood and I agree with that too. It will make that building 3 times more sturdy than it is now. I would spend the money on spray foam. It will save you much more than it cost very soon. Like Meli says, you will save on vapor barrier so there is that. Install plugs that have a USB port in them and you wont be sorry. It will save later on using one of those plugs to use with a charger. At least put a few in strategic places. 

Speaking of electrical, how will you meter all these buildings? One meter or several? Something to consider. You dont want a whole bunch of meter poles dotting the landscape. You may have to go underground or something else. Electric is not my thing was just wondering aloud how it could be done.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

I find this very interesting,I can't wait to see the finished products


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The ceiling rafters seem to be on ten foot centers so it’s unlikely they will end up over the OPs one window per side. 
The doors are in the ends so again it’s unlikly they will wind up over the doors.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> The ceiling rafters seem to be on ten foot centers so it’s unlikely they will end up over the OPs one window per side.
> The doors are in the ends so again it’s unlikly they will wind up over the doors.


Picture two shows the door right under the load bearing ridge. Picture one shows the rafters over the windows.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I used closed cell spray foam for insulation in my cabin. Didn't have to install a vapor barrier with it or vent the celling. Underside of floor is also spray foamed. It was cheaper to hire a company to come do it instead of trying to do it myself.

WWW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Picture two shows the door right under the load bearing ridge. Picture one shows the rafters over the windows.


Yep. Needs headers over the door and windows and cripple studs under the windows. But the Alabama doesn't require a snow load so they might get away without them.

WWW


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol take a look at the end walls unless the door is hard against the side it won’t need a header. 
Won’t hurt but it’s not needed
Look carefully at the picture of the inside. The rafters are in ten foot centers and the window is in the center of the wall. 
In a 30’ shed the window should be exactly between two rafters. 
I don’t like the window placement cause it weakens the wall but it shouldn’t have to suppprt a rafter.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The pictures are of a twenty foot shed not the 30’ the OP ordered.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

More pics. At the shed place now discussing things. More later.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

More


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

More


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol take a look at the end walls unless the door is hard against the side it won’t need a header.
> Won’t hurt but it’s not needed
> Look carefully at the picture of the inside. The rafters are in ten foot centers and the window is in the center of the wall.
> In a 30’ shed the window should be exactly between two rafters.
> I don’t like the window placement cause it weakens the wall but it shouldn’t have to suppprt a rafter.


It's a load bearing ridge so most of the load is in the middle of the ridge and not the birds mouth of the rafters. Therefore the middle of the door is carrying a load.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Quick question, because I don't understand what headers are. The pics I posted are from a 12' x 20' that's on the dealer lot. Ours will be 12' x 30' and they are in production now. The windows are set to be centered on the 30' walls. The 4' standard door as in the pictures is set to be centered on the 12' side. SHOULD I MOVE IT and if so to WHERE? (This question is kinda urgent, so I can call the company and make the change ASAP.) The 3' additional door is set to be on the other 12' side, 1' from the edge of the building.

Will post more later, am avidly reading all the advice! Waiting for a quote on the spray foam insulation but I do suspect it's well out of my budget.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It would be good to offset both doors So that they are just to the side of a center post in the end wall 
That said I’d want them as far from side walls as possible.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> It's a load bearing ridge so most of the load is in the middle of the ridge and not the birds mouth of the rafters. Therefore the middle of the door is carrying a load.


Just because it’s a bearing Ridge doesn’t mean the load have to go through the center of the door obviously it does not do that.
I think the truss carries the majority of the load.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Just because it’s a bearing Ridge doesn’t mean the load have to go through the center of the door obviously it does not do that.
> I think the truss carries the majority of the load.


There is no truss. It is a common load bearing ridge. 

Where do you see a truss?


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

A little update:

Just talked to the company itself. My 12' x 30's will have trusses, not what I am seeing in the 12' x 20' that's on the lot. He said it would sag a little if they didn't use trusses in that size. He's going to try to send me pictures soon.

Also, they do ridge cap? that has venting, not ridge vents. They said with ridge vent, wind-driven rain was a problem. (Please understand I'm pretty clueless about all this and I may be posting it incorrectly, but they said there is ventilation along the peak.)


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

The company just sent me this pic of the trusses.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Then I would put a header above the windows. The truss will transfer the weight to the top plate.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> There is no truss. It is a common load bearing ridge.
> 
> Where do you see a truss?


See that top sill plate in one continuous piece that the bottoms of the rafters are tied to?
It will keep the toes from spreading 
It creates a triangle. 
That’s a truss


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Catalytic said:


> The company just sent me this pic of the trusses.


I see those as collar ties (wood that joins opposing rafters). Nonetheless, it functions partially similar to a truss. It keeps the rafters/walls from splaying outward. 
I agree with comments on actually having window and door headers...thing is, these sheds are obviously made for utility purposes. You can ask them to do it, or do it yourself. Easier if they do it, but they might want an extra few bucks. 
I suspect with these types of sheds, they sell them at an inexpensive price point. You'll just have to beef them up to make them safer (habitable).


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> See that top sill plate in one continuous piece that the bottoms of the rafters are tied to?
> It will keep the toes from spreading
> It creates a triangle.
> That’s a truss


No that's a Gable. Not a truss.

Sill goes below or under so there is no such thing as a top sill.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

melli said:


> I see those as collar ties (wood that joins opposing rafters). Nonetheless, it functions partially similar to a truss. It keeps the rafters/walls from splaying outward.
> I agree with comments on actually having window and door headers...thing is, these sheds are obviously made for utility purposes. You can ask them to do it, or do it yourself. Easier if they do it, but they might want an extra few bucks.
> I suspect with these types of sheds, they sell them at an inexpensive price point. You'll just have to beef them up to make them safer (habitable).


Agree, those aren't trusses either but workable for a 12' span.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

From wiki
“ In engineering, a truss is a structure that "consists of two-force members only, where the members are organized so that the assemblage as a whole behaves as a single object". A "two-force member" is a structural component where force is applied to only two points.”

Now you can jabber on as much as you want but unless this shed company just started building sheds with the opening posters shed it would seem to me they have a plan that works 
They only dealing with a 12 foot span, the forces are light and mild it doesn’t take a multi triangulated 2x12 to deal with he mild forces in question. 
I will bet you a dollar to a doughnut you can cut an 8 foot opening in those in the end wall without doing any more doing any more to the above the plate structural components


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> From wiki
> “ In engineering, a truss is a structure that "consists of two-force members only, where the members are organized so that the assemblage as a whole behaves as a single object". A "two-force member" is a structural component where force is applied to only two points.”


Yep that is correct but the 20' building has three force members. If you cut an 8' opening in the end it will sag. Guaranteed. The 30' one you could take out the whole end wall and it wouldnt sag (if they are built right). It has two force members only. I dont recommend it though. 

I am just trying to give good accurate advice so someone doesnt spend a bunch of money and have the house fall in on them. I have 40 years experience and 4 years training in structural and building science not including CE hours. Just finished a 45 million dollar job. 

I'm done with this argument. Have a nice day. No more jabbering from me.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

That is not a truss, it is a collar tie.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I would be running away from any company that put rafters up like this. Find a different shed manufacturer.










WWW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Those are collar ties. Not trusses. But at least it is better than what the other shed shows. I'd still find a different shed manufacturer.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

wy_white_wolf said:


> I would be running away from any company that put rafters up like this. Find a different shed manufacturer.
> 
> View attachment 70402
> 
> ...


Wow. That is terrible and already cracked. And not many nails and no clips or holders either.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wy_white_wolf said:


> I would be running away from any company that put rafters up like this. Find a different shed manufacturer.
> 
> View attachment 70402
> 
> ...


I totally agree but I fear the OP has already committed themselves


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Those are collar ties. Not trusses. But at least it is better than what the other shed shows. I'd still find a different shed manufacturer.
> 
> View attachment 70404


 The horizontal piece is a collar ties with the triangle formed is a truss 
In the building trades We are used to calling a prebuilt roofing support a truss but the truth of the matter is any triangle is a truss. 
No matter how you create the triangle you get the strength and stability it need not be created in a factory


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Yep that is correct but the 20' building has three force members. If you cut an 8' opening in the end it will sag. Guaranteed. The 30' one you could take out the whole end wall and it wouldnt sag (if they are built right). It has two force members only. I dont recommend it though.
> 
> I am just trying to give good accurate advice so someone doesnt spend a bunch of money and have the house fall in on them. I have 40 years experience and 4 years training in structural and building science not including CE hours. Just finished a 45 million dollar job.
> 
> I'm done with this argument. Have a nice day. No more jabbering from me.


 I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy I’d like to see a post underneath that ridge but the truth of the matter is there’s probably going to be nothing underneath that spot on the floor to support 
Most 12 foot sheds of this nature have a runner on each side but no central support. 
This is a $2000 shed not a $45 million structure things are done differently


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

What area is this? Wish they would bring back locations on our names. Even looking at profile I never know. ie from such and such. The sheds are very


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

..... location dependent.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

wy_white_wolf said:


> I would be running away from any company that put rafters up like this. Find a different shed manufacturer.
> 
> View attachment 70402
> 
> ...


Yeah, beyond the noted crack, that is all wrong. The rafter should be sitting on sill, with a birdsmouth joint. That way, the rafter is holding wall in place and it can take a load. What they rely on here is some toenails to support the roof and keep walls in place (bad idea). 
For reference, here is an example, for those interested; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdsmouth_joint

I really have to wonder why they did it like that....I must be missing something...hard to fathom.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

I've looked at sheds from a couple different places. Seems shed construction is quite different from residential construction.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

oldtruckbbq said:


> I've looked at sheds from a couple different places. Seems shed construction is quite different from residential construction.


It is and since it is considered "temporary" its not bound by code in most states.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

A lot of time a homeowner can remedy shoddy construction with a few inexpensive additions but in this case the basic structure would have to be changed 
Four instance in the picture of the 20 foot shed the two rafters in the middle of building could be tied together with a cheap to buy for running across the building. Probably not much more than four dollars to add an immense amount of strength 
If that had been added to the rafters before construction the trust created by a reporter could have sat firmly on top of the walls instead of the poor attachment points they have now


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Is the original poster following this thread?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Lets home the OP isn't listening to AS


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I noticed a potential problem easily remedied at this point. There is no header over either window and the roof support is directly over the windows. If it were me I would get that taken care of first. Then proceed with wiring, rough in any plumbing lines that you think you might want someday. I'd then insulate with fiberglass batts with the vapor barrier, cover with half inch plywood. You can hang drywall, and paint, or be creative with all sorts of wall and ceiling coverings. Burlap, egg crates, various lumber, or combinations.


I Google'd headers and found this video: 



 Headers *seem* simple enough, so I'll post pictures of my actual sheds when they arrive for guidance on those. I don't understand structure very much. I can build stuff following a plan, but I have no idea of the technical terms or how to determine what is load-bearing and whatnot. Are there batts with vapor barrier on them or is vapor barrier something I'm going to do separately? Starting to get cross-eyed looking at insulation on Lowe's/HD LOL.



melli said:


> I wouldn't go with drywall in the shed. The exterior walls being just sheet metal will cause the building to flex in a wind. I would insulate, then vapor barrier, and ply (tighten up build). Then I'd just paint ply or throw on panel board. Hopefully the roof has a ridge vent.
> I'm a fan of roxul...better than pink of so many levels. That being said, getting someone to spray foam the sucker would be ideal (no poly required). With a metal clad exterior, your going to have condensation issues, but spray foam will fix that (no air space, no condensation).
> I would do any plumbing rough-in first, then electrical (get a smokey in asap).
> Agree with YH on header over window...odd why there is none. That being said, it looks like a bear to install, given I see no jack studs. I would even beef up stud directly below gable end support for ridge beam.
> ...



Not sure I can afford the spray foam, actually not even sure I can get someone to do it. Help is sketchy around here, hard to find, unreliable, dishonest, well, you get the idea. I assume by smokey you mean smoke detectors? If so, I already have them, I had purchased them to replace the ones in the mobile home. I'll Google jack studs, I know what studs are but all the different kind of studs I'm finding out are beyond me, eek.

Could you share why you don't like window mount ACs? These buildings are all over the place with them here, so I'm just curious. My dad built a summer kitchen, roughly 25' square several years ago, and he used some kind of wall mount AC/heat units, similar to what motels have. I was thinking about those, and my husband and a friend were talking about the units that were used in their shed-type buildings when they were deployed, so hubby wanted to check into those, as well. Right now, I have a Midea 14,000 BTU portable AC that we use to supplement our RV's AC that I plan to use in one of the sheds. (Our RV AC seems to be holding its own this year, it didn't in 2015 when we lived in it, so I bought this right before we started living in it last month, just in case.) Obviously, other than the buildings themselves, nothing is set in stone yet, so I much appreciate your viewpoint on my plans!



bobp said:


> We have been living in a 16x40 for awhile. There's 4 of us.
> We made every attempt to make it as functionaly homey as possible. And best of all ITS PAID FOR!
> You can do it as well.
> 
> ...


Is cellulose insulation the blown in stuff like this? What is PTAC?



AmericanStand said:


> Can you afford spray foam ?
> If you can frame up a new wall of 2x4 on two foot centers Inside the current walls flat the studs every 4 feet and have 6 inches of foam sprayed in AFTER you run your rough wiring.
> Get a good book and wire all your own outlets group two sets of four on Either side of a stud where you kids want their computers. Plan on additional outlets about every four feet.
> 
> ...


Ordered this book and this book to hopefully learn about electric wiring. Not sure how I feel about learning electricity on this project, given that my kids will be living in them. It seems simply enough to run wires, but...

Not sure spray foam is in the budget, waiting on quotes for that. Ridge is supposed to come vented.



AmericanStand said:


> Install linoleum with it curved up at the side walls
> Roll it out first on the lawn Then roll it the short way drag it in the door and roll it out so it curves Up the side walls.
> Don’t cut it hang vapor barrier and sheet rock over it. In stall sheet rock 1/2 above the floor use spacers run the sheets up and down. With the seams on the flated studs.


Any issues installing other flooring over linoleum in the future? (I suppose it would be easy enough to just cut it at that point?) I'm hoping to do LVP in them eventually.



mreynolds said:


> You have a load bearing ridge so the header (above the windows) in this case is optional. Its not carrying much load. It would only cost about 20 bucks to put one in if it makes you feel comfortable though. What worries me more is like Meli says the support for that ridge in the way of studs. Something else I am concerned about is the door we dont see. THAT needs a header as it is supporting that load bearing ridge above it. Can we see a pic of that side please?
> 
> Consensus here is plywood and I agree with that too. It will make that building 3 times more sturdy than it is now. I would spend the money on spray foam. It will save you much more than it cost very soon. Like Meli says, you will save on vapor barrier so there is that. Install plugs that have a USB port in them and you wont be sorry. It will save later on using one of those plugs to use with a charger. At least put a few in strategic places.
> 
> Speaking of electrical, how will you meter all these buildings? One meter or several? Something to consider. You dont want a whole bunch of meter poles dotting the landscape. You may have to go underground or something else. Electric is not my thing was just wondering aloud how it could be done.


My property currently has two electric meters. (I have no idea why, it was like that when we bought it.) One goes to the house. The other goes to a large barn/shed/outbuilding, used to go to a large greenhouse (storm took it out before we bought the property, but the pole with box on it is still there and active, I just had an electrician put a GFCI outlet on it for an above ground pool), and goes to the mobile home in the back of the property. There are a few random cement pads on the property, one we know went to the greenhouse. Tenant that has been in my house for six years grew up in this town, remembers the house being built, and as a kid and young teen, actually used to have sleepovers in it. He thinks he remembers there being TWO mobile homes here 40-ish years ago, and he's pretty sure he found some sort of pipe to a septic tank we were unaware of and sealed it up with a towel and spray foam. (He said snakes kept coming out of the pipe) We haven't explored that yet...but it's on the to-do list. When I had a tree removed, they pulled up some 3/4" pipes that run to my spigots from the well, but also I found broken 3-4" PVC, and it's close enough to the suspected septic tank to have been drain field. We know it isn't drain field from the mobile home's septic tank because the septic company showed me where that drain field is/was.

All that to say, I intend to run these two buildings off the mobile home pole. I can't imagine they would need their own meters? I do think they need their own...boxes that hold breakers! Ha, have to figure out what those are called.



wy_white_wolf said:


> I used closed cell spray foam for insulation in my cabin. Didn't have to install a vapor barrier with it or vent the celling. Underside of floor is also spray foamed. It was cheaper to hire a company to come do it instead of trying to do it myself.
> 
> WWW


Any chance you would share how much the insulation cost? I'm having a bear of a time getting a quote. Found a guy who will come out after the buildings are here to see if he can give a quote but he's dealing with a death in the family right now, so I didn't keep him on the phone.



mreynolds said:


> Then I would put a header above the windows. The truss will transfer the weight to the top plate.


As soon as the buildings are here, I'll ask for help with the headers!



melli said:


> I see those as collar ties (wood that joins opposing rafters). Nonetheless, it functions partially similar to a truss. It keeps the rafters/walls from splaying outward.
> I agree with comments on actually having window and door headers...thing is, these sheds are obviously made for utility purposes. You can ask them to do it, or do it yourself. Easier if they do it, but they might want an extra few bucks.
> I suspect with these types of sheds, they sell them at an inexpensive price point. You'll just have to beef them up to make them safer (habitable).


I know I'll have to do some work on them, probably a whole lot more than I was expecting or budgeting for, but they are used all over the place around here for offices and cabins, so I know it's feasible. I just have to find a happy medium between sturdy safe, decent, and my wallet haha.



mreynolds said:


> Yep that is correct but the 20' building has three force members. If you cut an 8' opening in the end it will sag. Guaranteed. The 30' one you could take out the whole end wall and it wouldnt sag (if they are built right). It has two force members only. I dont recommend it though.
> 
> I am just trying to give good accurate advice so someone doesnt spend a bunch of money and have the house fall in on them. I have 40 years experience and 4 years training in structural and building science not including CE hours. Just finished a 45 million dollar job.
> 
> I'm done with this argument. Have a nice day. No more jabbering from me.


I appreciate all advice, particularly if it keeps me from throwing good money after bad as I was doing with the mobile home.

Some questions:

It's unlikely I can afford to do spray foam insulation AND plywood walls immediately. IF I can afford/find someone for spray foam, could I either do the foam and then use drywall? (Thinking no, because I'm guessing the foam won't add to the structure) OR could I foam now and do plywood over a few months? Wind isn't a big thing here, the sheds will be somewhat sheltered from the west by the barn/woods, north by the house, and south by the RV and mobile home. If I can't afford both immediately, would I be better off with insulation batts and plywood right away? (Plywood is nearly triple the cost of the drywall, so it already tossed a monkey wrench in the budget. I had drywall at about $680 plus about a hundred for tools, mud, screws, and tape, but plywood is almost $1600 alone.) Again, I need these livable (not beautiful, just safely livable) ASAP. We can work on aesthetics over time.

If I use batt insulation, what kind of vapor barrier do I use? I was trying to Google to understand, but I just got more confused. 

Structurally, what are easy improvements? (May need pics of my actual sheds to advise on this.)

Just a note:

I'm near Dothan, Alabama. Yes, the sheds are ordered and paid for. They may not be perfect, but they are very popular around here for businesses and living spaces, particularly for lake or hunting cabins. I don't expect them to survive a tornado, but I'm hopeful they will survive hurricanes this far inland. (I've seen many that have been through hurricanes. I've talked to people who own them, not just at the shed dealer, but also some businesses in the area.) Regardless, they will be insured, and in severe weather my sons will be in our brick home, not riding it out in the sheds. We rarely, if ever, get bad wind, and there are things that work as wind breaks on 2-3 sides. Most people around here finish the interior with reflective foam board insulation (not much R value from what I've looked at) and paneling. I'd rather mine look better than that, and preferably be sturdier. I didn't expect house quality when I bought them, I knew there would be challenges and a need to tweak. And YES, I am following the thread, but WiFi is at a premium right now so it may take me a bit to respond, because I hate typing on my phone


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Lost my links! These are the books I bought.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

oneraddad said:


> Lets home the OP isn't listening to AS


 Why because I have gave good advice in layman’s terms? 
And as usual while you castigate others for no reason at all you have not an added the single useful thing to the conversation.
So quit your whining and offer up some helpful and neighborly advice


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Assuming that the new shed is just like the one we have seen pictures of the rafters are a concern. I believe I would go to the hardware store and pick up some metal plates to put on each side of the rafter to tie them to the studs you will find them already pre-punched.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Catalytic - Easy to google jack studs....here are a few links to get you started;
https://www.jlconline.com/training-the-trades/framing-rough-openings_o?o=0
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2001/03/15/anatomy-of-a-stud-framed-wall
https://www.quora.com/What-is-wood-frame-structure

Basically, the header is used to transfer roof load to floor via the jack studs. In a small shed, the loads are nominal. Also, having a header with jack studs tightens up wall assembly, especially if sheathed with ply. Your studs carry load forces, but ply takes care of shear forces. 

Yes, vapor barrier is put up after you fill cavities with insulation. Up here, 6 mil is code (thick plastic - comes in a roll). We staple it up and tape seams. The idea is to restrict airflow. Airflow becomes a problem when you have warm interior air meeting cold exterior air or vice-versa (condensation).

AC unit makes a window useless, unless you punch a hole in wall for one. Plus, it creates a leak source. That being said, a window unit install is fairly easy and you don't take up floor space. 

I get what your doing, and to each their own. I absolutely don't object to what your doing (none of my business anyways). If you can find someone competent to spray foam the place at a price point you can afford, I would do that. The only reason I suggest that is because you are staring at tin (no exterior sheathing). Tin is a condensation magnet. If you go with batt insulation, I'd be very thorough with vapor barrier.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Why because I have gave good advice in layman’s terms?
> And as usual while you castigate others for no reason at all you have not an added the single useful thing to the conversation.
> So quit your whining and offer up some helpful and neighborly advice



OP, listen to mreynolds, he has an understanding of the building trades that AS don't. I've built a couple things while being in the union trades and can spot a BSer pretty easy.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

melli said:


> Catalytic - Easy to google jack studs....here are a few links to get you started;
> https://www.jlconline.com/training-the-trades/framing-rough-openings_o?o=0
> https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2001/03/15/anatomy-of-a-stud-framed-wall
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-wood-frame-structure
> ...


I love JLC and FHB. They are the crown jewels of the trade. Better not ask a dumb question in JLC forum or they will run you off.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

Cellulose insulation is the blown in stuff. Its not horribly difficult. I hung my ceiling, tgeb tge bottom sheet of the Walls, then blew the bottom half dry, hung the upper sheet leaving a 6" strip at the top. And blew in the top. This sucked...but in tge end it turned out great.
Ptac is a package terminal air conditioner. 
We bought a ptac heat pump with 15k strips for back up.
It was about a grand or so... they're used in hotels alot


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Cellulose insulation becomes mouse habit.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> I love JLC and FHB. They are the crown jewels of the trade. Better not ask a dumb question in JLC forum or they will run you off.


Meh....lol
Seriously, they are a good resource. I kind of enjoy their site, as they usually focus on the topic/issue, instead of back-biting or grand-standing. 

I spent about a week on this page alone when it came to 'developing rebar in the stem to footing'...They all had different ideas, and naturally, they threw all the books at it. Which, in turn, forced me to research their competing ideas.
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=401855
Engineers....shaking my head...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

oneraddad said:


> OP, listen to mreynolds, he has an understanding of the building trades that AS don't. I've built a couple things while being in the union trades and can spot a BSer pretty easy.


 Now that explains everything. 
Why you don’t offer any useful advice. 
And why you castigate those that do. 
I’m gonna bet the OP doesn’t want a 45 million buck union built palace.......


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

melli said:


> Catalytic - Easy to google jack studs....here are a few links to get you started;
> https://www.jlconline.com/training-the-trades/framing-rough-openings_o?o=0
> https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2001/03/15/anatomy-of-a-stud-framed-wall
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-wood-frame-structure
> ...


Melli, in the first link, would the jack stud and the king stud both be 2x4s? And would the headers be 2x6? The Quora image from Merrium Webster seems to label cripple studs as jack studs if I'm looking at it correctly.

My windows will be 36" wide, and according to the FHB link, if the opening is larger than the stud spacing, then it needs a header, so I'll add those.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Now that explains everything.
> Why you don’t offer any useful advice.
> And why you castigate those that do.
> I’m gonna bet the OP doesn’t want a 45 million buck union built palace.......



Union trades have apprenticeship programs that you have to complete to be in the union, they make sure you learn the trade properly.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Doing a lot of reading about vapor barriers as my wifi cooperates. I've got 6mil plastic in my Lowe's order to go on the ground under the sheds, but I'm not sure I should be putting it inside the sheds. Here's some links I've been reading, I am in the hot, humid South, growing zone 8b. Lowest average temperature for the year is 41°, but I do know it occasionally drops to the teens for a day or two.

Any thoughts about these articles? I'm in the IECC climate zone 3, ONE county away from zone 2.

Lowe's about insulation (I don't assume they know what they're talking about, but I don't want to completely disregard.): 
Whether your vapor barrier is a facing or a film, it must be placed on the warm-in-winter side of the wall. If you live in a cold climate, place the vapor barrier between the interior of your home and the insulation. If you live in a hot, humid climate, place the vapor barrier toward the outside of the wall cavity. Check local building codes and your climate for vapor retarder requirements. Generally, in hot, humid areas, using a vapor barrier is not recommended. 

FHB: The short answer to your question is: in hot, humid climates, put the vapor barrier towards the outside surface (or as I was taught, the warm side of the wall, although that varies as you noted, from season to season). In a climate though, where summer cooling is of more concern than winter heating, the VB should be towards the outside--keeping the hot, humid air out of the wall cavity. There's a website called (I think) buildingsciences.com that talks about such things in more detail. Whatever you do, do not put a vapor barrier on both sides of the wall (that would realy trap moisture inside the wall and no matter what you do, moisture will get into the wall). Some folks (like those who frequent the Breaktime forum sponsored by Taunton, as this one is) argue not to use a vapor barrier at all--just to use a water barrier like Tyvek. That way moisture can migrate to the dry side, whichever side that may be at any given time, and not stay in the wall.

Vapor Retarder? Vapor Barrier? Perms? What the Heck?!

One of the foam spraying guys that I talked to that never called back with a quote thought I was crazy for wanting to use spray foam insulation. He asked my why didn't I just use foam boards and caulk all the seams between wood and metal. I already mentioned everyone I've talked to who uses these buildings for offices uses foam board and paneling for the interior.

WHAT IF: I put 1/2" or 3/4" foam board insulation between all studs in the walls and roof, and use either caulk or Great Foam to seal all the cracks, and then put R-13 fiberglass insulation, and then either drywall (does the foam provide any structural support? Guessing drywall still isn't a good option) or plywood. Did read about finishing plywood like drywall, so I think I can make it look good regardless. Would the foam board/Great Stuff eliminate the condensation issue?


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Also Melli, hubby and I agree with you about taking up a window, so if we use window ACs, we will probably cut a wall for it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> Melli, in the first link, would the jack stud and the king stud both be 2x4s? And would the headers be 2x6? The Quora image from Merrium Webster seems to label cripple studs as jack studs if I'm looking at it correctly.
> 
> My windows will be 36" wide, and according to the FHB link, if the opening is larger than the stud spacing, then it needs a header, so I'll add those.


Cripple, Jack and trimmer stud is all the same. Some people got away from calling it cripple because of PCness. Yes, the are both 2x4's.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

oneraddad said:


> Union trades have apprenticeship programs that you have to complete to be in the union, they make sure you learn the trade properly.


What I’ve always liked about the union apprenticeship programs is most not only include doing the job Most include classroom instruction. By putting both of them together I think they turn out outstanding Craftsman.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Your biggest problem will be this. There tin will sweat on the inside. Like when you take a Coke out of the fridge and bring it somewhere warmer. That will be inside your wall. That's why I recommend the spray foam. 

You and I are about the same lattitude and prices are about the same. I can get it done for a dollar a foot (wall footage). Since yours is small it may cost a little more. You can use the foam board just fine but understand if it's not sealed good you will get some condensation on the inside tin. 

If this is temporary living quarters then by all means go ahead and do this. Worse case scenario is you change the tin out in 8-10 years. By then you can save up for wood siding and Tyvek and do it better. I wouldn't overthink it if you are on a very tight budget. Otoh, whatever you can get right this go around will save headaches down the road.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> Cripple, Jack and trimmer stud is all the same. Some people got away from calling it cripple because of PCness. Yes, the are both 2x4's.


Ah! (PC has invaded everything...I'm not so very PC LOL)



mreynolds said:


> Your biggest problem will be this. There tin will sweat on the inside. Like when you take a Coke out of the fridge and bring it somewhere warmer. That will be inside your wall. That's why I recommend the spray foam.
> 
> You and I are about the same lattitude and prices are about the same. I can get it done for a dollar a foot (wall footage). Since yours is small it may cost a little more. You can use the foam board just fine but understand if it's not sealed good you will get some condensation on the inside tin.
> 
> If this is temporary living quarters then by all means go ahead and do this. Worse case scenario is you change the tin out in 8-10 years. By then you can save up for wood siding and Tyvek and do it better. I wouldn't overthink it if you are on a very tight budget. Otoh, whatever you can get right this go around will save headaches down the road.


I Google'd and we are almost directly across from each other on the map! I would love to do the spray foam, and I'm definitely trying to figure it into the budget, if I can find someone to do it. I considered even using the DIY kits, which is how I came across this video on "poor man's spray foam" and that with the comment by the spray guy that didn't call me back (nothing unusual around here, ugh) made me wonder if that would work. We're living in our travel trailer right now, fiberglass exterior, and it is soaked in condensation 24/7 right now, so I definitely understand about it, just not how to work with it vapor barrier-wise if I can't swing spray foam.

(We've been back in this area for a month, the ONLY reliable service people have been the Spectrum installer, and my plumber/electrician that I've been using for 8 years. I have 4 people just not show up and quit answering their phone for quotes on repairing my mobile home, the AC guy showed up 4 days late while I wasn't home and then I had to wait 2 more days for him to come back, the contractor I did hire for the mobile home was 3 days late, I've been waiting 3 weeks for a termite inspection on my house, a tractor guy was 9 days late, etc. My mom lives 50 miles south in a tiny town, and she can't get reliable, reputable help no matter how much money she offers.)


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh and they are *meant* to be temporary but when I took my husband to see the sheds last night (the 12x20) and the 19 yr old saw how big the 12x30 would be, he informed us he was never moving out if he had that much room  His is the one I was planning for my she-shed/craft room!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> Oh and they are *meant* to be temporary but when I took my husband to see the sheds last night (the 12x20) and the 19 yr old saw how big the 12x30 would be, he informed us he was never moving out if he had that much room  His is the one I was planning for my she-shed/craft room!



That's ok, just move your she shed right on i in when you get ready and he'll move out.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Seems odd to me that the so called experts here Don’t recognize the two by four over the window as a header.
They can’t seem to understand the end walls in portable shed construction are not bearing. 
That truss’s do not have to come as all angles ,that anything that creates a triangle is suitable to create a truss And it can have non-triangular areas within it. 
That not everybody lives on the north or vapor barrier is on the inside.

There are a lot of variables to construction and you have chosen to move to the outside edge of the construction field by using portable sheds as permanent living spaces. 
I suggest that you once again talk to your engineer at the shed company And express any concerns you might have.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Seems odd to me that the so called experts here Don’t recognize the two by four over the window as a header.
> They can’t seem to understand the end walls in portable shed construction are not bearing.
> That truss’s do not have to come as all angles ,that anything that creates a triangle is suitable to create a truss And it can have non-triangular areas within it.
> That not everybody lives on the north or vapor barrier is on the inside.
> ...


Lol.... You should ask an engineer. I can guarantee there are none at the shed company. They aren't engineered by a licensed engineer. 

I like how you used the term "so called experts". It really helps show how concerned you are with Cat's problems. Maybe you should write a book on engineering. That's twice you've alluded to me in a derogatory manner when I said I was done with this debate with you. If you want to fight let's take it to the dark room. Here is not the place.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Catalytic said:


> Doing a lot of reading about vapor barriers as my wifi cooperates. I've got 6mil plastic in my Lowe's order to go on the ground under the sheds, but I'm not sure I should be putting it inside the sheds. Here's some links I've been reading, I am in the hot, humid South, growing zone 8b. Lowest average temperature for the year is 41°, but I do know it occasionally drops to the teens for a day or two.
> 
> Any thoughts about these articles? I'm in the IECC climate zone 3, ONE county away from zone 2.
> 
> ...


Doing the foam-board and canned foam is an option, but fussy to do right, and not all that cheap. They do have do-it-yourself foam kits which might be cost competitive against the foam-board option. 

Yeah, I noticed one site calling a cripple, a jack...wrong in my opinion (they serve different purposes). 

I hear vapor barrier placement is a concern where you live...up here, always inside (behind drywall). Unless, one is using SIPs etc., then not required. Actually, in my ICF bunker, VB not required (ICF is a VB barrier), but I will likely use it for dust control. 
You do need something. You want to limit vapor drive, especially since you are staring at tin from inside. In your humid climate, I wouldn't be surprised if it rains inside from condensation. It is an issue here in some shipping containers that have poor seals and tract homes that used aluminum windows (not used anymore). 
I would seriously consider asking them what it costs to sheath and typar a shed (under tin), as it is being built. You get a tight and quieter shed, and then you can use batts and VB.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

melli said:


> Doing the foam-board and canned foam is an option, but fussy to do right, and not all that cheap. They do have do-it-yourself foam kits which might be cost competitive against the foam-board option.
> 
> Yeah, I noticed one site calling a cripple, a jack...wrong in my opinion (they serve different purposes).
> 
> ...


I ran across a website for portable buildings in the area that has an option you can order if you are ordering a building to turn into living quarters or office. They will put housewrap on before the sheathing if it is a wood sided building, and if you order a metal sided building you can get it with OSB sheathing and housewrap. It does add to the cost, but I think well worth it. I'll see if I can find the link, although since the OP has already ordered the buildings it may be too late.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

I'll let you guys know Thursday how these sheds do in a hurricane, since Michael has us dead in his sights, ha. The shed dealer will be the second place I visit after it's all over (my house will be the first LOL). I will call tomorrow, this company *does* offer insulation and plywood walls, but the dealer told me it's about 70% of the cost of the shed, and I figured I could do it cheaper, anyway, I'll call and ask about the sheathing and housewrap.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Lol.... You should ask an engineer. I can guarantee there are none at the shed company. They aren't engineered by a licensed engineer.
> 
> I like how you used the term "so called experts". It really helps show how concerned you are with Cat's problems. Maybe you should write a book on engineering. That's twice you've alluded to me in a derogatory manner when I said I was done with this debate with you. If you want to fight let's take it to the dark room. Here is not the place.


I actually think what you say here is good stuff.
You are right there may not be a actual engineer on the shed staff.
That wouldn’t be unexpected but it would be valuable information.
I am concerned with cats problems and I honestly believe you are to.
But I think one important factor is price.
Another is that the OP was committed to these sheds.
I don’t think you have much experience with building noncode small residential structures.
I may be wrong and please enlighten us if you do.
Honestly I think highly of your advice and would probably incorporate it in a structure I was building.
I also think highly of you for offering actual helpful advice unlike some others here who are always ready to criticize without ever offering anything helpful .


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I actually think what you say here is good stuff.
> You are right there may not be a actual engineer on the shed staff.
> That wouldn’t be unexpected but it would be valuable information.
> I am concerned with cats problems and I honestly believe you are to.
> ...


Your right, I have only built two of them and they really aren't portable unless you have a big winch truck.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You should see some of these shed movers, once they get them off the flatbed truck they move them around with a set of back wheels that looks like it came off a lawn more tractor and a front mover that looks like somebody cut the back half off of that same lawn more tractor 
It’s actually a tiny three wheeled forklift so amazing to see what they can do though


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

My dad used to be a dealer for similar sheds and greenhouses. He bought a flatbed tow truck to deliver them and used the winch on it for the up and down control. 

They will be putting housewrap on before the metal. He wasn’t sure about exterior sheathing plus due to Michael there’s now a shortage of wood, blah. 

So my husband, who usually totally ignores what I do as far as building stuff and whatnot, is now balking at plywood walls. He said drywall is safer in a fire situation, and he’s concerned that using plywood would make them a death trap in a fire situation. He understands the structural aspect of plywood. Any words of wisdom for him?


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Catalytic said:


> My dad used to be a dealer for similar sheds and greenhouses. He bought a flatbed tow truck to deliver them and used the winch on it for the up and down control.
> 
> They will be putting housewrap on before the metal. He wasn’t sure about exterior sheathing plus due to Michael there’s now a shortage of wood, blah.
> 
> So my husband, who usually totally ignores what I do as far as building stuff and whatnot, is now balking at plywood walls. He said drywall is safer in a fire situation, and he’s concerned that using plywood would make them a death trap in a fire situation. He understands the structural aspect of plywood. Any words of wisdom for him?


Having working smoke alarms is what saves lives. Yep, drywall has a higher resistance to fire, but it is a moot point...smoke will kill everybody long before the shed burns down. In other words, by the time an actual fire is present in shed, everybody should be out, or they will be dead from smoke inhalation. I've never seen walls spontaneously combust...usually, something inside catches fire, like furniture, or an electrical short. 

With a smoke/CO2 alarm installed, my next concern would be ensuring the shed doesn't become a mold magnet. 

If I am not mistaken, drywall was mandated to slow the spread of fire to other rooms...supposedly, to give occupants in other rooms time to flee. In a one room shed???


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> My dad used to be a dealer for similar sheds and greenhouses. He bought a flatbed tow truck to deliver them and used the winch on it for the up and down control.
> 
> They will be putting housewrap on before the metal. He wasn’t sure about exterior sheathing plus due to Michael there’s now a shortage of wood, blah.
> 
> So my husband, who usually totally ignores what I do as far as building stuff and whatnot, is now balking at plywood walls. He said drywall is safer in a fire situation, and he’s concerned that using plywood would make them a death trap in a fire situation. He understands the structural aspect of plywood. Any words of wisdom for him?


That's great they are using housewrap. That will allow inside moisture to escape and outside moisture to stay out. 

He does have a point about the plywood but it shouldn't be a problem. Flame spread is not much on plywood but sheetrock is much better. Drywall will have some structural integrity but not near as much as plywood.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

melli said:


> Having working smoke alarms is what saves lives. Yep, drywall has a higher resistance to fire, but it is a moot point...smoke will kill everybody long before the shed burns down. In other words, by the time an actual fire is present in shed, everybody should be out, or they will be dead from smoke inhalation. I've never seen walls spontaneously combust...usually, something inside catches fire, like furniture, or an electrical short.
> 
> With a smoke/CO2 alarm installed, my next concern would be ensuring the shed doesn't become a mold magnet.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, drywall was mandated to slow the spread of fire to other rooms...supposedly, to give occupants in other rooms time to flee. In a one room shed???


Smoke detectors will definitely be in place and maintained. Don't think I'll need CO detectors, there won't be any risk items in there and they are detached from any other structures. Now he says he's done more research and plywood is more prone to mold than drywall. (He has no idea of the prices of any of it, so idk why he's advocating for drywall now. We have lost two family members to home fires, though, so that may be driving it. Also our oldest son is a firefighter)



mreynolds said:


> That's great they are using housewrap. That will allow inside moisture to escape and outside moisture to stay out.
> 
> He does have a point about the plywood but it shouldn't be a problem. Flame spread is not much on plywood but sheetrock is much better. Drywall will have some structural integrity but not near as much as plywood.


I'm going to keep working on him, thank you and melli so much for giving me excellent info to share with him! He actually "freaked" out tonight because I had told him about vapor barrier a few days ago, and apparently he was researching today and found out that it shouldn't go on the inside down here, so he was telling me how wrong I was haha. Had to burst his bubble and tell him I'd already ordered the housewrap on the exterior this morning.  Well, we are now evacuating TO Florida for Mr. Michael, be back when I can! Thanks for all the advice thus far, it's very much appreciated!!!!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Drywall will attract mold way before plywood


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> I'm going to keep working on him, thank you and melli so much for giving me excellent info to share with him! He actually "freaked" out tonight because I had told him about vapor barrier a few days ago, and apparently he was researching today and found out that it shouldn't go on the inside down here, so he was telling me how wrong I was haha. Had to burst his bubble and tell him I'd already ordered the housewrap on the exterior this morning.  Well, we are now evacuating TO Florida for Mr. Michael, be back when I can! Thanks for all the advice thus far, it's very much appreciated!!!!


You know, living in the south like we do I cant help but think of all those mobile homes built that never had any housewrap, built with tin sides and barely any insulation that are still standing today. Been married a long time but my wife cant keep a secret from me. I have learned that she chooses her battles wisely. Let him have his drywall and you can pick out the rest lol.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I might be tempted to do something different than either drywall or plywood 
Like give the kid a stack of pallets and tell him he can make any design he wants out of his walls!

Just get good smoke Detector


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

We used a Graceland building for our start.
We had them Tyvec wrap the outside, and used a UV radiant barrier on the roof between the decking and the metal roof. 
Eve, soffit and crown vented. I used the styro vent extenders between every truss to allow air flow from the soffits. And so the 18-24" of cellulose wouldn't block them. (Went overboard....its cheap and easy)
They build on 16" centers.
The joist supports are second to none.
They are well built. 
They now offer insulated windows....we bought ours at lowes.
Everything you can do to conserve energy is money well spent.
I haven't had the underside of floor foam sprayed yet but plan to one day....i have a few foam projects i need to get done.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> You know, living in the south like we do I cant help but think of all those mobile homes built that never had any housewrap, built with tin sides and barely any insulation that are still standing today. Been married a long time but my wife cant keep a secret from me. I have learned that she chooses her battles wisely. Let him have his drywall and you can pick out the rest lol.



Having wandered through some of the aftermath of Michael, I’m amazed at how well most of the mobile homes and sheds held up. Trees down everywhere but I saw a couple of MHs and sheds standing under the weight of large oaks. (Mind you, I haven’t been to Panama City or Mexico Beach. The devastation there is making me heartsick. My sister is calling when she can to keep me appraised of her situation and tell me what she’s seeing. Verizon being down in the area is making things extremely difficult because a lot of the path is rural areas that Verizon is the only carrier for. ) So, so many power lines down and trees, and trees laying across main roads supported only by power lines. Anyway. Not really relevant to the thread but all the sheds I’ve seen in my hours and hours of travel today made me feel like ours are gonna be ok. Our RV got flooded while we were gone from the rain I guess but otherwise our property fared well. A farm gate is holding up an oak that fell on my aunt’s mower shed, which allowed my husband to get the mower out safely and with no damage. ️


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Catalytic said:


> My dad used to be a dealer for similar sheds and greenhouses. He bought a flatbed tow truck to deliver them and used the winch on it for the up and down control.
> 
> They will be putting housewrap on before the metal. He wasn’t sure about exterior sheathing plus due to Michael there’s now a shortage of wood, blah.
> 
> So my husband, who usually totally ignores what I do as far as building stuff and whatnot, is now balking at plywood walls. He said drywall is safer in a fire situation, and he’s concerned that using plywood would make them a death trap in a fire situation. He understands the structural aspect of plywood. Any words of wisdom for him?


Don't let him play with matches! Drywall houses with steel studs burn down too. It's all the flamables inside the building that are the real hazards.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> Having wandered through some of the aftermath of Michael, I’m amazed at how well most of the mobile homes and sheds held up. Trees down everywhere but I saw a couple of MHs and sheds standing under the weight of large oaks. (Mind you, I haven’t been to Panama City or Mexico Beach. The devastation there is making me heartsick. My sister is calling when she can to keep me appraised of her situation and tell me what she’s seeing. Verizon being down in the area is making things extremely difficult because a lot of the path is rural areas that Verizon is the only carrier for. ) So, so many power lines down and trees, and trees laying across main roads supported only by power lines. Anyway. Not really relevant to the thread but all the sheds I’ve seen in my hours and hours of travel today made me feel like ours are gonna be ok. Our RV got flooded while we were gone from the rain I guess but otherwise our property fared well. A farm gate is holding up an oak that fell on my aunt’s mower shed, which allowed my husband to get the mower out safely and with no damage. ️


Glad you guys are ok. Keep us posted.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Haven’t had time to call and see if the hurricane affected the date the sheds will be ready and haven’t really had time to talk to hubby any more about plywood/drywall. We did get all the trees down today that were in the way of where we want the sheds, it’s the only day we haven’t been to FL at least once. 

Monday I’ll call about the sheds and try to make a decision on the interior so I can get my Lowe’s order in for delivery. Haven’t had time to see what the wood situation is, been busy ferrying food, water, and fuel to FL. Generators are selling like crazy, gas cans and water jugs are very hard to find, and C and D cell batteries are impossible to get right now. If nothing else, I’ll know what SHTF items to stock up on after this! (I rambled into this because I spent four hours driving around trying to find a chainsaw today to get the trees down)


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> Haven’t had time to call and see if the hurricane affected the date the sheds will be ready and haven’t really had time to talk to hubby any more about plywood/drywall. We did get all the trees down today that were in the way of where we want the sheds, it’s the only day we haven’t been to FL at least once.
> 
> Monday I’ll call about the sheds and try to make a decision on the interior so I can get my Lowe’s order in for delivery. Haven’t had time to see what the wood situation is, been busy ferrying food, water, and fuel to FL. Generators are selling like crazy, gas cans and water jugs are very hard to find, and C and D cell batteries are impossible to get right now. If nothing else, I’ll know what SHTF items to stock up on after this! (I rambled into this because I spent four hours driving around trying to find a chainsaw today to get the trees down)


Sounds like you guys are getting busy for sure. 

Get your wood and especially drywall ordered asap. In a hurricane zone after a big one there will be a shortage. Especially on drywall and plywood. It will go up soon. Since your sheds will be ready soon (hopefully) you can be one of the first to get your order in. For a week people will be cleaning up and in a daze from the hurricane. Then the tear out will begin and there will be no drywall and stuff you need for a month or two.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I kind of like pegboard to finish off the interior of sheds and boys bedrooms.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> Sounds like you guys are getting busy for sure.
> 
> Get your wood and especially drywall ordered asap. In a hurricane zone after a big one there will be a shortage. Especially on drywall and plywood. It will go up soon. Since your sheds will be ready soon (hopefully) you can be one of the first to get your order in. For a week people will be cleaning up and in a daze from the hurricane. Then the tear out will begin and there will be no drywall and stuff you need for a month or two.


Well, the shed company beat me to calling. Shed #1 will be here Thursday! (Hubby has surgery Wednesday so I had to stall it) I ended up going to Lowe's to place my order because the app is giving me fits. Hubby won the drywall battle, mainly because of price and availability, sigh. Maybe we will go back in a few years and put plywood in, who knows. Our delivery of drywall, insulation, etc will be here Thursday sometime. R-13 for walls, R-30 for roof. If we go back later and do plywood, I'll be sure to budget for more insulation in the walls then, too. Got two 52" ceiling fans for each and am going with portable ACs vented through the windows for the time being. (Also a shortage of window unit ACs now, and I already have one unit, so I figured it wouldn't take up the whole window and be a good stopgap for now until we decide on what we want permanently. I'm considering electric fireplaces for heat, any thoughts on those?

Everything is out of stock right now, batteries, chainsaws, gas cans, any kind of battery operated lights. Wood is starting to be in short supply. Stores are selling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of generators a day. My mom was finally able to call me tonight, so either Verizon is coming back up or she's bouncing off the AT&T tower, we've heard they are opening them up to all carriers. (I didn't think that was possible but maybe it is)

My 20' wide black 6mil to go on the ground was sold out, so I got 10' wide in clear and will just overlap unless that will be a problem. Ordered drywall, insulation, joint compound, the plywood to fix my barn, 4 cattle panels to take to my mom to make a temporary dog pen for the folks who can't go home from the hurricane yet, and a bunch of 2x4s. Probably won't use the 2x4s or plywood for a while but I figured since delivery is a flat rate, it'll save me from having to take hubby's truck up there later.

In store, I bought drywall screws, joint tape, taping knives, utility knives and a bunch of blades, drywall sandpaper and sanders, masks to wear while sanding, and a deck stain/sealer the paint girl recommended to protect the floor until we decide on actual flooring. The electrician is going to try to get here Friday, but he isn't optimistic, unfortunately. Will suck if he can't because hubby has to leave for a couple weeks, so he's only got this weekend to help on them.



AmericanStand said:


> I kind of like pegboard to finish off the interior of sheds and boys bedrooms.


I seriously considered that, but hubby really wants this drywall LOL.

I think I read somewhere to start at the top and work down with the insulation and drywall? Can you guys confirm if that's what I should do? My planned order is sealing the plywood floor, then electrician (and plumber if need be, haven't decided about that), and he will install the ceiling fans as well, or teach me to do it, then insulation, then drywall, then all the drywall finishing, painting, electrical covers, and eventually the flooring. Ideally, I would do the walls first so I could teach my sons and husband how to do it, and then they could do the roof/ceiling, but if I need to do the top first, I will. (Figure I may as well go ahead and seal the floor as soon as it's set up, because the electrician won't be here until the next day at the earliest. I'll put another coat if we mess it up during construction, but at least it will be protected from spills immediately.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Questions next.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Ok so there’s the pics of the interior. No headers, no trusses, no fake trusses. 

First shed is here, second will be here Monday. Rough in electric and plumbing for kitchen sink being done now. 

1. I had them wrap the roof too, and then realized maybe I shouldn’t have done that. Hot, humid Alabama, do I leave the Tyvek in the roof or cut it out? 

2. Headers or no? Windows are 3x3, one door is 3’, one is 4’. If I do headers, do I just cut those studs out of the way for the header and then make the jack studs?

3. The duplicate pic with the red line. I was going to run a board wall to wall there but I can’t get above the long board at the top of the studs. (First I tried 11’7” cut with 15 degree angle to fit above it, then I tried a rectangle cut out of the end of the board that I planned to rest on it, but I can’t maneuver that into place either. I plan to hang my ceiling from the red line. What is the best way to do that? And will that suffice as a fake truss and support?

Think that’s all for now. Excited to get started.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Glad they got the wrap done. It will make a lot of difference. 

On the fourth picture down the top plate splice needs a gang nail in it to keep it from spreading. Normally you would have two plates here. 

https://www.connectorsonly.com/tp57tieplate.html

You can find these at any lumber yard including big box. They cost next to nothing. Also may want to ask for hurricane clips when you there. These will tie the rafters to the studs and make the top harder to blow off.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

(Borrowed this pic from Google). This is what I’m trying to do with that red line. I do plan to have supports going from it to the roof boards.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> Glad they got the wrap done. It will make a lot of difference.
> 
> On the fourth picture down the top plate splice needs a gang nail in it to keep it from spreading. Normally you would have two plates here.
> 
> ...


In the window picture? Sorry I don’t understand where you are saying. I’ll get the tie plates when I get the rest of the lumber for the “trusses”. Should I screw or nail those in? (I usually use screws for everything but I saw the link said nails)


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> Ok so there’s the pics of the interior. No headers, no trusses, no fake trusses.
> 
> First shed is here, second will be here Monday. Rough in electric and plumbing for kitchen sink being done now.
> 
> ...



1. The Tyvek is supposed to let humidity out and keep water from getting in (never figured how that works though). But since you have unvented gables it should work the same as the walls. 

2. Yes to the headers. Just remove the jack studs you have now and cut them to the right size once your header is installed. 

3. I am not sure what pitch you have but it looks like a 3/12. That equals about 14 degrees. You need the reverse of that angle. Take 90 degrees and subtract 14 and that is your angle to cut the joists out at. 90-14=*76 degrees*. The problem you will have is getting it in there though. Here is what I would do in this situation. 

Go ahead and build your walls then install your joists the other way from gable to gable instead of wall to wall. Tie one of those gang nails from the existing top plate to the top plate you build on the cross walls. You may need a palm nailer for this. 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Porter-Cable-0-Degree-Mini-Impact-Palm-Nailer-PN350/203764517


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> In the window picture? Sorry I don’t understand where you are saying. I’ll get the tie plates when I get the rest of the lumber for the “trusses”. Should I screw or nail those in? (I usually use screws for everything but I saw the link said nails)


Your top plate is spliced over one stud. That means you have two nails from each side holding it. If that stud ever splits the plate will be loose. You will install the gang nail across both plates and the stud and nail. You can use screws but they need to be structural screws.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Found this is all I could find. 

http://anchorsolutions-inc.com/installation_6.html 

About halfway down the page for gang nail.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think the headers you have are sufficient 
If tie the wall together like you planned 
Simply cut the cross 2x4 to the right shape and put two nails into the rafter and two nailed up ito it from below.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol I can’t see any reason you would need a gang nail for your top plate .
Do the metal sheets on the out side run the full lighthouse from front to back ?
If they are like most they do. The screws in them hold ever stud to every other stud. 
Just like a gigantic gang nail.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol I can’t see any reason you would need a gang nail for your top plate .
> Do the metal sheets on the out side run the full lighthouse from front to back ?
> If they are like most they do. The screws in them hold ever stud to every other stud.
> Just like a gigantic gang nail.


Are you willing to take that bet over a $1.60 and 5 minutes of work?


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

I can see how getting ceiling joists up there could be a problem...you have minimal room. I would cut an angle as mreynolds suggested, to get as much bearing on sill as possible. The ceiling joists won't be load bearing, so it will be ok. What you want to ensure is plenty of nails through ceiling joist into rafters, so the ceiling joists acts as collar ties (rafters won't sag and push out walls over time). Given the width of shed (10'8"???), I would probably just put one vertical (king post) from ceiling joist to ridge on each ceiling joist. Throwing up gobs of trusses (webbing) probably isn't necessary. 

For the walls...I would push the corners of shed to see how stout shed is....you have no ply (limit shear). If there is any give, I would consider cut-in diagonal bracing from corners or metal straps. 

Glad to see you moving forward on project...best.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

After thinking on what you said for a few hours, Googling and finding out the names of the parts of the wall and building, I now understand what you mean about the tie plates! There’s 4 splices so I have those in my shopping cart for both sheds. (Sorry, besides being blonde, my internet isn’t working, and my phone acts like it’s on -1G right now haha). I didn’t notice the splice in the pics so I had to go look at the shed for it to all click in my head. 

There’s plywood against the housewrap/tin between the top plate and the rafter. From plywood to plywood, it’s 11’7” so that’s what I cut my support (joist?) at, but that length definitely won’t fit up there . In the morning (tenants go to bed early so I don’t want to use the saw right now), I’m going to cut an inch off each end so that it’s 11’5” and see if I can get that length up there. If so, that will give me 1.5” of wood on the top plate. What is the minimum amount of wood you would go with sitting on that top plate?

The hurricane ties...do I want them on every rafter? (If Michael’s path had been 5 miles west, a category 3 hurricane would have crossed my property. That’s absolutely insane, they are usually tropical storms at best when they reach my area. Hubby and I are originally from Florida, I lived in Lynn Haven and Panama City until I was in 7th grade and then we moved to the East coast of FL. We aren’t exactly strangers to hurricanes, but dang Michael was intense. Funnily enough though, I didn’t see any sheds missing roofs when I went to PC yesterday. I’d say 75% of roof damage I saw to any structure was from trees, and then peeled tin or missing shingles for the rest. Anyway, babbling again!)

Should I use rafter ties instead of the nail plates on the splices that line up with a rafter/stud?


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Ignore this post, my brains were falling out.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> After thinking on what you said for a few hours, Googling and finding out the names of the parts of the wall and building, I now understand what you mean about the tie plates! There’s 4 splices so I have those in my shopping cart for both sheds. (Sorry, besides being blonde, my internet isn’t working, and my phone acts like it’s on -1G right now haha). I didn’t notice the splice in the pics so I had to go look at the shed for it to all click in my head.
> 
> There’s plywood against the housewrap/tin between the top plate and the rafter. From plywood to plywood, it’s 11’7” so that’s what I cut my support (joist?) at, but that length definitely won’t fit up there . In the morning (tenants go to bed early so I don’t want to use the saw right now), I’m going to cut an inch off each end so that it’s 11’5” and see if I can get that length up there. If so, that will give me 1.5” of wood on the top plate. What is the minimum amount of wood you would go with sitting on that top plate?
> 
> ...


Code near the gulf is every rafter on the hurricane clips. You can do every other one though further in. It's a judgement call. I would still use the gang nail on the splice.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

This is an interesting thread since I'm toying with the idea of a small guest house.
I'm not a professional builder, and I don't claim to be, but I've been accused of "overbuilding" on my projects.
In my opinion, you can't make a structure too strong, and for the little bit extra it costs to do it right, it's worth it.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> This is an interesting thread since I'm toying with the idea of a small guest house.
> I'm not a professional builder, and I don't claim to be, but I've been accused of "overbuilding" on my projects.
> In my opinion, you can't make a structure too strong, and for the little bit extra it costs to do it right, it's worth it.


Cornhusker, I agree about overbuilding completely. Unfortunately I have to find a middle ground for my budget, too. I fully expect to have to replace the drywall in a few years and I’ll use plywood then. And maybe by then spray foam will make its way to the country. And if I don’t have to replace it, that’s awesome, too! These sheds were a “spur of the moment” frustration fix to a problem, within 12 hours of having the idea to do them, I’d ordered them. I’m happy with my decision, a little frustrated that the building doesn’t have the “trusses” and 2x6 rafter I was sent a picture of (I did know that was an older design because they no longer do any electric standard, but I didn’t know about the different wood and trusses. I’ll be addressing that Monday with the company) 

What I should have done was posted here BEFORE I ordered and gotten opinions about different shed types. Next time! I am happy with the shed, I’ll do what I can to make it sturdier, and I’ll make improvements over the years. (And have insurance on them in the meantime!)


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol


mreynolds said:


> Are you willing to take that bet over a $1.60 and 5 minutes of work?


 like corn husker I tend to overbuild. 
I would probably add it to these shed but if I was building the sheds my self I would have used twin top plates off set AND a nailing plate top and bottom at each joint.
And yeah I’d use hurricane ties at each stud. 
But concidering this is a shed on no foundation the end result would be it blowing away in one piece instead of parts. 
I suspect the biggest threat to this shed will be trees falling ON it.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

YYou need to either put in ceiling joists or collar beams nailed to the roof rafters to keep the building from the potential of spreading according to your photos..


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol
> 
> like corn husker I tend to overbuild.
> I would probably add it to these shed but if I was building the sheds my self I would have used twin top plates off set AND a nailing plate top and bottom at each joint.
> ...


That ain’t gonna be an issue. We already cut the trees near it and any that can reach my house or barn are coming down before next summer!!!!!









One of 987 billion broken or uprooted trees in Panama City.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So your house and living sheds won’t have shade ?
I kinda like shade. 
I suspect if I lived where you do I’d Downright be in love with shade. 
And a breeze. Kinda hard to have both though.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> So your house and living sheds won’t have shade ?
> I kinda like shade.
> I suspect if I lived where you do I’d Downright be in love with shade.
> And a breeze. Kinda hard to have both though.


Nope, no shade. I didn't have much shade on my house to begin with, but my huge eucalyptus at one end of the house died at some point in the past 6 years, so tenants took it down. (My house is a rambling rancher, about 80' long) The two idiot Bradford pears at the other end split, half of each of them are still standing, and I am cutting them down ASAP. There's one really tall cedar? tree (about 70'-ish) behind my porch but what little shade it provides lands on my porch roof. I paid over $20K for a new roof two years ago, and almost $10K for a new AC, I don't want trees anywhere near either of them. (Or the sheds LOL) Now seeing what Michael did to oak trees, and watching an enormous pine come down on the lot next to my mom's during the hurricane, they're all going away if they can reach any structure on my property. I have woods behind my big shed/barn, we haven't wandered through them to see if anything came down during the hurricane. We did have a branch break on a small tree in the front yard. We do have a light breeze now that I'm paying attention, not strong enough to call it wind.

General update:

After taking off 2" from either end of the joists I made, I can get them up there. Roughly 1½" of joist on each side to sit on the top plate. Hopefully that's enough. Got a palm nailer at Harbor Freight (along with ear plugs, can't wait to see what my air compressor sounds like in the shed LOL). Spent about 2 hours today fishing through the 2x4x12s at Lowe's to find enough that were relatively straight for the joists. Bought a bunch of 2x4x8s for the supports for the joists, got nail plates, but no hurricane ties because they're out of stock. Bought nails, foam board for behind outlets (forgot the glue, will grab that tomorrow), porch lights, the USB outlets someone mentioned, a space heater because it decided to get chilly.

I'm hoping to get all the joists and their supports for both sheds cut tomorrow, and at least the joists for the ceiling fans nailed in so if the electrician comes Tuesday for rough in on shed #2, they'll be ready. Lots going on tomorrow, and the other shed comes, and just for fun when I was going to take hubby to the airport at 0400 this morning, the alternator on my van went out  so I have to try to find a mechanic tomorrow, too.

Only thing I got done on the sheds today was using Great Stuff on the places they had to cut the metal to run wire (exterior outlet and porch lights by both doors). I hope I'm much more productive tomorrow!


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Measure across from your top plates on each side to make sure they haven't already spread some


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

RonM said:


> Measure across from your top plates on each side to make sure they haven't already spread some


I’ll check this afternoon. The electricians are here working in the shed and on running the power to it, fixing the haphazard existing wiring on the pole, etc.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Both sheds are still 11’7” across. Second one came yesterday, electricians were working on pole fixing the random 200amps that just runs into the ground and a box fell on the poor guy’s head and split it open . His apprentice took him to the ER for stitches. Not sure what day they will be back to finish that and rough in the second shed. The joists are sitting on the top plate in shed #2 right now, trying to decide how to do the supports. I wasn’t taking into account that the rafter and joist wouldn’t be flush for the support  (I really wish I had innate construction knowledge!) Once I figure that I’ll get all those cut, and then finish cutting the joists for shed #1. Will put the nail plates in as I get to them when I’m nailing the joists and then I’ll do the headers. Once that’s done I’m pretty much at a standstill until the electricians are done, I think. Maybe I’ll precut the insulation while I wait on them.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

1-1/2" bearing for joists is perfect (general rule). I'd use that board as a template for succeeding joists. But first, I'd make sure walls are parallel by testing that board in other spots...


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

melli said:


> 1-1/2" bearing for joists is perfect (general rule). I'd use that board as a template for succeeding joists. But first, I'd make sure walls are parallel by testing that board in other spots...


The joists are sitting on the top plate in both sheds. Not nailed yet. I'm really struggling with the support boards. In my mind, the joist and rafter were going to be flush and I would just smack a short piece of 2x4 up there and nail it in both. Reality is, I'm dumb, and of course the rafter and joist are not flush, because the joist is against the rafter, not under it. Any guidance on the best way to do the supports? I thought about cutting it so the top found nail into the underside of the rafter and then the bottom would nail into the side of the joist, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea? Are these supports structural or no? (Could I use screws?) Appreciate any thoughts on the supports, I'm really hoping to get them cut, if not hung today. Still waiting on electricians to come back


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Face nail it to the rafter, not underneath it,,,


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Like Ron says, face nail it into the rafter. Since you have only one plate you can also drive a screw through the bottom of it into the joist.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

On the joists, I’m planning to face nail 2 nails into the rafter here and then 2 nails from under the top plate:










This part I’m having trouble wrapping my head around. I thought about toenailing the top of the support to the rafter and then facenailing to the joist. Or, facenailing to the rafter, and putting a scrap of 2x4 in between the support and joist and then facenailing both the support and joist onto the scrap? (Or screwing if this part isn’t structural?). And I’m planning to do the supports in thirds, ie one every 1/3 of the joist length. OR, I can do what melli suggested and just do one in center (once I figure out how to measure/cut that double angle), but same question for that. Could I toenail it to each half of the rafter? Apologies for the poor pictures, kid is terrified of ladders, as I just discovered. Good thing he’s my insulation kid!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Two nails each should be fine as you described. Just one in the middle will be all you'll need as you are only 12' wide. It will keep it from sagging in the middle. The nails at the edges will keep it from spreading.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

I would use 3 16's on each end


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Have to share this. This kid is my 20 yr old Aspie. He’s the one who was shaking the ladder like crazy while I was trying to take pictures. He heard me use the palm nailer and now he’s taken over


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Those palm nailers can be fun.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Catalytic said:


> Have to share this. This kid is my 20 yr old Aspie. He’s the one who was shaking the ladder like crazy while I was trying to take pictures. He heard me use the palm nailer and now he’s taken over


Looking good!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Set you short upright boards on the 2x4 that spans from wall to wall. nail the top directly to the rafter and nail the bottom to the spanning board with either small steel plates predrilled for nails (69cents at Menards) or just a scrap of plywood.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Since I have been reading this, I went out and priced some of these sheds. I could build a finished place, with insulation, electric, and a heater, for what they charge for just the shell.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

RonM said:


> I would use 3 16's on each end


Can you elaborate? Sorry I'm not sure what you mean.



AmericanStand said:


> Set you short upright boards on the 2x4 that spans from wall to wall. nail the top directly to the rafter and nail the bottom to the spanning board with either small steel plates predrilled for nails (69cents at Menards) or just a scrap of plywood.


Thanks!



muleskinner2 said:


> Since I have been reading this, I went out and priced some of these sheds. I could build a finished place, with insulation, electric, and a heater, for what they charge for just the shell.


I'm certain these COULD be built better, for less, and possibly by me. Unfortunately, they would take me a while to build, and I need them "quickly". (Quickly being relative because by the time the electricians actually show up and finish, I probably could have at least built the second one, sigh.)


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

I mean use 16 penny common nails....use a nail gun if possible..


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

RonM said:


> I mean use 16 penny common nails....use a nail gun if possible..


Gotcha! That's what I'm using, with a compact palm nailer that mreynolds recommended.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Electricians are finally back, yay! Hopefully drywall will be up in at least one shed by the weekend!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> Electricians are finally back, yay! Hopefully drywall will be up in at least one shed by the weekend!


How did it go?


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

The rough in electric and plumbing is done on both sheds. Ceiling and all insulation is up in one shed and the hoist has been moved to the second shed for the ceiling and attic insulation in there. The wall insulation is already in place. Hoping to have both ceilings taped, mudded, and primed by Monday/Tuesday so I can paint the ceilings and hopefully have the electricians back out by Thursday to install the outlets/fans and turn the electric on. Asked electrician how his head was, he told me he’d gone and gotten the staples out the evening before, just in time to come back to my place


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Catalytic said:


> The rough in electric and plumbing is done on both sheds. Ceiling and all insulation is up in one shed and the hoist has been moved to the second shed for the ceiling and attic insulation in there. The wall insulation is already in place. Hoping to have both ceilings taped, mudded, and primed by Monday/Tuesday so I can paint the ceilings and hopefully have the electricians back out by Thursday to install the outlets/fans and turn the electric on. Asked electrician how his head was, he told me he’d gone and gotten the staples out the evening before, just in time to come back to my place



That's great (except the electrician) that you guys are moving ahead so quickly.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

The drywall is up except two pieces in the second shed. It hasn’t quit raining for over a week, so between that and the time change, work has been slow. First kid’s shed is partially taped. Waiting on the weather to warm up for the mudding . Hoping to get a lot done this weekend if the weather cooperates, and then hubby is off for a few days for Thanksgiving so after we do the family thing, weather permitting, we hope to be in the home stretch and ready to call the electricians back out!


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Well. Weather hasn’t been the most cooperative and it’s too cold to paint for the next few days but we have one shed with two coats of primer done and one shed ready for primer. The electricians are scheduled to come Friday to hang ceiling fans, lights, outlets etc so I’m going to try to at least get the ceiling painted in the one and spot prime and paint around the ceiling fan areas in the other on Thursday with space heaters haha. Super excited to be close to the first finish line! Temps are supposed to be high this weekend so hoping to finish the priming and painting on all walls and ceilings and maybe get the first coat on the floor. Will do trim and some kind of real floor as time and money permits over the next few months!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Looks like it's coming together.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Keep working the plan. Excellent follow through!


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

We have power!!!! Working on painting walls during the monsoon we’re having right now and we got carpet for one and linoleum for the other. Going to paint/seal the floor and then just lay the flooring as a temporary floor. One kid really wanted carpet ugh. Had planned just the painted plywood but we discovered socks get caught on it LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

One of the best things we did for the kids room was to point him at the cheap remnant bin and let him pick one.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> One of the best things we did for the kids room was to point him at the cheap remnant bin and let him pick one.


We’ve been haunting the clearance stuff at Lowe’s. My kid picked up a $900 fridge for $388. Hoping to catch a good deal on a fridge for the other kid, too. 

They’re painted! Got a little touch up to do, and hubby was totally in the zone and started painting around the ceiling fans in the first one  so I have to fix that, too.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Welp, they are “done” for now. Trim and better flooring in the future, kitchen counter and sink in a few months. Will work on porches and steps as we can. Need to do a final cut on the carpet and linoleum tomorrow. Some touch up painting later in the week. Boys will move in tomorrow if the smell is dissipated. Hubby just finished the outlet covers and is installing the smoke and carbon monoxide detectors right now. Greatly appreciate all the support and advice!!!!!!


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

When our boys were teens, my wife wanted me to rip up the carpet in the boys' room, replace it with concrete, and install a floor drain in the middle so she could just hose it down. I should have listened, because we had to replace the carpet and padding when we sold the house.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

oldtruckbbq said:


> When our boys were teens, my wife wanted me to rip up the carpet in the boys' room, replace it with concrete, and install a floor drain in the middle so she could just hose it down. I should have listened, because we had to replace the carpet and padding when we sold the house.


Haha YES! And both boys have cats. But I have to admit, the one with carpet looks better and feels better. 

We repurposed some cabinets we had to remove from our house to rent it (custom office, we needed it to be a bedroom for renting), so we have (ugly) kitchen cabinets in them for a kitchen area. We cut the backs to make room for the sink pipes and will repaint them and maybe new countertops when we put the sinks in. They are starting to look like little homes! (Minus bathrooms, of course). Notice the kitten asleep on the package? They’ve already ripped a couple open . Thankfully the weather warmed up a bit so they’re back in the barn today.


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## jbishop (Mar 9, 2018)

This was a fun read. Congratulations. I would have loved a place like this as a teenager.


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