# Why exactly is molasses bad?



## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm curious because I have a Nubian doe that absolutely hates alfalfa pellets but loves rabbit pellets. The rabbit pellets have a bit of molasses in them. These are my only choices since alfalfla hay isn't an option. I let her have rabbit pellets for one week and her milk production went up to 3.5 pounds per milking. Not great, but doable. Now she's down to 1.5-2 pounds per milking. It's not really worth all the other hassles with her for that little bit. And I'm kind of stuck with her right now as goats are few and far between in my area.  

Anyway, would I be killing my goat by feeding her rabbit pellets?


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## moosemaniac (Mar 7, 2003)

The feed I use contains molasses.

Ruth


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think the claim is that it's not good for the pH of their rumen. It's just something I heard or read. 

Weiss Nichts!!

Rose


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## AnniesGoats (May 18, 2007)

Just my own experience, not that I am an expert.

I try to keep the overall molasses down to less than 5% of the total goat feed. The molasses can mess with the PH of the rumen, from what I have learned, and can cause problems, such as the rumen not manufacturing vitamen B. I dealt with 2 cases of goat polio before I discovered the high volume of molasses suddenly being added to my milled feed.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

moosemaniac said:


> The feed I use contains molasses.
> 
> Ruth


What do they do with the rest of the mole?


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## moosemaniac (Mar 7, 2003)

Oggie said:


> What do they do with the rest of the mole?


Feet and head go into cat food. That's what makes 'em so mean.

Ruth


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Oggie said:


> What do they do with the rest of the mole?


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Does she have free access to baking soda? That will help keep the pH of the rumen friendly to the bacteria that process the food for her.


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

I hope someone chimes in who has made the statements that "sweet feed" is not good . . . I do remember them, but not who and why!

My girls get the same grain mix they were on at previous owners. It's a mix known by prev. owner's name at the Coop, and it is redolent of molasses!! I'd like to make cookies out of it, it smells so good. I've read the "con" against sweetfeed, but have been hesitant to change their feed without more info. I'd be glad to hear it all again.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Molassas is a cheap source of energy, and like sugar which is what it is...ok I will give you iron sugar at the most, the blood level goes up really high and pluments really quickly, so it's not a good source of energy. It also contains iron which depletes copper, something in my area you dont' want to do.

Molassas feeds, gets bugs quickly and sours in the heat....wievels...I hate wievels.

Molassas fed over time makes the rumen more acidic, read up on rumen acidosis, no amount of bicarb is going to do anything about that.....

Molassas in the acidic rumen depletes B vitamins especially B 12 which makes your goats eat less efficently, which means she has to eat more...if she will and more than likely she won't, to keep the same body weight milk the same amount as a doe who eats raw grain.

Molassas is used to cover fines, byproducts and crap....protien sources like fish and feather meal, lard (like is what is in rabbit pellets) and the change of oils (linseed which is the worse for off flavor milk but doesn't have to be on the label, just veggy oils) that no goat would ever eat if it wasn't dipped in sticky sweet molassed chopped corn cob dust.

Molassses sweet feed for horses is made for the owners. If it's oowee gooey sweet than it must be good, it sure looks good enough to eat and smells so good! Must be wonderful! Yes for their single stomached couch potatoe horses who do nothing, a true working horse, no it's to hot. Like sugar and salt in baby food really.

The poorest quality feeds...horse and mule type feeds, generic all stock pellets, dairy lactation pellets at coops, can have up to 25% molassas in them. So what you paying per 50# for a bag that is 1/4 molassas, chopped corn cob and oat chalff and other byproducts? And then wonder why the girls are thin during lactaion or only twin.

Molassas is fluff and a waste of my money.

So there is the who and the why  Vicki


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## retiredbop (Mar 9, 2007)

I *LOVE* reading Vicki's answers to just about anything. :bow: :bow: :bow: 

I learn so much.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)




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## Oldntimes (Nov 26, 2006)

I too, always enjoy Vickie's wisdom...I am in the process of switching from a sweet feed mix to mixing my own COB mix... I hate "Fluff" :baby04: 
and they go threw the baking soda like no tomorrow so I know I need to get them off that....


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

This is interesting. I feed my two girls a course mix - which seems to be what you call "sweet feed". I have an expensive non-GM feed that I ship in as they are young animals and I thought that, as a beginner, it would be better to buy in specially bought than to try and mix my own - I have mixed my own horse feed for years!

They are also fed a product called mollichaff which is basicallly chopped up hay with, you've guessed it, molasses added.

The goat I had the problems with earlier in the year has had some spells of what I think is "star-gazing" which I seem to remember is connected with goat-polio? And now I hear goat-polio mentioned again.

Their feed is, at the moment, course mix, flaked maize (good quality), handful of sunflower seeds, mollichaff, and a spoonful of sugar beet. Ad lib hay and a couple of hours grazing a day on whatever they can find - they have access to grass, weeds, trees etc so have a good variety while they are out.

It will be a while to take them off the feed they are on completely. What would you recommend moving them on to? Would Alfalfa chaff be better than the mollichaff. I can't get Alfalfa hay. Also what about silage/haylage? I seem to remember that is made with molasses too?

groan - got this wrong too 

hoggie


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

From what I've gathered, it's not so much the molasses itself that is the culprit, but the quantity of molasses fed as well as the frequency of the feedings. This is a little long, but explains it well, and this is the way my goat vet explained it to me.

_PEM and Molasses: The Real Story By Jackie Nix 
Some goat producers are afraid to feed commercial molasses-based supplements due to a fear of inducing PEM (polioencephalomalacia) in their goats. While there are some valid concerns that must be addressed concerning use of molasses in a goatâs diet, overall, commercial mineral and protein supplement products that contain molasses are safe for goats. What is PEM?Polioencephalomalacia (PEM) is a noninfectious neurological disease of ruminants that results in softening of the gray matter of the brain. Blindness, muscular incoordination, circling, head pressing, spasms, and convulsions are all symptoms of this disease. The causes of this disease are not fully understood; however, there is strong evidence that point to the following as contributing causes: 1. Thiamine deficiency. The rumen microflora normally produce thiamine, along with all other B vitamins needed by the goat. Thiamine deficiency may be caused by thiaminases (enzymes that breakdown thiamine) found in plants such as bracken fern or by production of thiaminases by certain microbes in the rumen. Also, some sulfur-compounds are capable of destroying thiamine activity. Thiamine injections to animals showing signs of PEM often lead to recovery. However, low levels of thiamine do not always correlate with PEM development, nor do normal thiamine levels guarantee protection from PEM. 2. Sulfur toxicity. Sulfur is a necessary mineral for metabolism of rumen microorganisms and is a component of the vitamins thiamine and biotin. However when excessive amounts of sulfur are present (greater than the ability of the rumen microbes to utilize it), the excess sulfur is absorbed into the bloodstream as sulphides. Sulphides in the body can lead to necrosis of neural tissues. In addition, some sulfur-compounds can destroy thiamine activity. Many now believe that PEM development is more closely tied with sulfur excess than thiamine deficiency. 3. Acidosis. Acidosis is caused by rapid production and absorption of acids in the rumen when goats consume too much starch (primarily grain) or sugar in a short period of time. The rapid shift in bacterial populations (due to diet change as well as a shift in rumen pH) can promote the production of thiaminase. Acidosis can easily lead to PEM. The Relationship Between Molasses and PEMMolasses is a by-product of sugar manufacturing. Most molasses used in livestock feeds is derived fromeither sugarcane or beets. Molasses is used in feedstuffs for many reasons. It is a good source of energy and trace minerals including sulfur and it helps to stimulate rumen activity. Molasses is used as anappetizer to encourage consumption. It also acts to reduce dust in feeds and as a carrier for vitamins and other nutrients. When properly managed, it is an excellent feed supplement. Many stories of PEM in goats relating to molasses arise from producers feeding molasses-coated âsweet feedsâ to goats. As stated above, when a goatâs diet is rapidly changed to a diet high in either starches 
(grains) or sugars (molasses) the rumen environment is disrupted and acidosis will result. Under these conditions, PEM can also occur. Pelleted sweet feeds are high in both starch and sugar and thus can easily promote acidosis if misfed. The rumen is designed for relatively slow digestion of forages and other roughages. When rapid changes are made in ruminant diets problems will occur. A good rule of thumb in adapting goats from one diet to another is to use the 4-week system. For the first week feed 25% of the new feed and 75% of the old feed. The second week feed 50% old and 50% new. The third week, feed 75% new and 25% old and finally in the fourth week you can feed 100% of the new diet. This system allows adequate time for the rumen micro flora to adjust Mineral and protein supplements make up a very small percentage of the total intake for a goat â 1 to 2% for minerals and less than 10% for protein blocks. Under normal circumstances, average goats can be expected to eat from 0.5 to 1 oz. of mineral supplement per day. Exact figures will vary according to the size and breed of the goat, the type of supplement, the nutritional status of the goat, etc. How much molasses does a goat receive under these circumstances? This will of course vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and product to product. But for the sake of argument, in the case of the Sweetlix 16:8 Meat Maker mineral, a goat consuming 0.5 oz. per day will receive 0.07 oz. of molasses products per day or less than 0.1% of the total dry matter daily intake. In the case of the Sweetlix 20% All Natural Protein Block for goats, consumption of 4 oz. of this product will result in consumption of 0.6 oz. of molasses products or 0.3 % of the total daily intake. These are well under the levels at which problems occur. In fact, low levels of molasses are actually useful in stimulating rumen function. Can pasture-fed goats offered commercial mineral or protein supplements containing molasses develop PEM? Yes. But the likelihood that the PEM is caused by the supplement is extremely slim. In conclusion, the causes of PEM are not entirely known or understood. There is a loose connection between molasses consumption and development of PEM; however, this is most logically attributed to the development of acidosis or excess sulfur from diets high in molasses, such as those in which large amounts of sweet feed or free choice liquid molasses are fed. Goats on a forage-based diet receiving either commercial mineral or protein supplements in loose or block form containing molasses need not be concerned about the amount of molasses ingested. _


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Thanks for the article.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

You need to also understand that Jackie is selling a product...SWEET Lix  She can't come on publically and tell you that all that molassas is bad for the rumen of goats when it is a very large componant to all their products...it's why goats eat as much of the product as they do...if they only went to the product for the salt, then consumption would go down, they would not only sell less...but....they would not be able to have the word of mouth "Oh my god my goats loved this product so much, they ate it like crazy they must have needed something in it, I will never feed anything else!"....and that kind of comment from enough people on the internet, at shows and goat meetings and sales increase. Is it better with the molassas in it, no...it is just tastier to the goats.

It's one thing to have a mineral block or sack of minerals with some molassas in it...a whole nother thing to have the 'grain' your goats need to grow or milk or for their energy to grow kids, masked by molassas. In the end it is a waste of your money. Vicki


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

OK - so pleeease someone tell me what I should be changing my goats on to - or should I start a new thread to ask this?

hoggie


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Mix your own oats , barley , light corn boss and you can top with Calf manna. See whats cheapest in your area and talk to one of the feed company nutrionalist to help you figure things out. They may even mix it special for you if you buy by the ton.

What works for me here may not work for you . I started a post "perfect grain mix " I think not alot of answers but it may be a start.

Patty


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> You need to also understand that Jackie is selling a product...SWEET Lix  She can't come on publically and tell you that all that molassas is bad for the rumen of goats when it is a very large componant to all their products...it's why goats eat as much of the product as they do...if they only went to the product for the salt, then consumption would go down, they would not only sell less...but....they would not be able to have the word of mouth "Oh my god my goats loved this product so much, they ate it like crazy they must have needed something in it, I will never feed anything else!"....and that kind of comment from enough people on the internet, at shows and goat meetings and sales increase. Is it better with the molassas in it, no...it is just tastier to the goats.
> 
> It's one thing to have a mineral block or sack of minerals with some molassas in it...a whole nother thing to have the 'grain' your goats need to grow or milk or for their energy to grow kids, masked by molassas. In the end it is a waste of your money. Vicki


Vicki,
As I stated, it was my vet who gave me this information initially. He stated that small amounts of molasses are actually beneficial to goats, and that in larger, more frequently fed doses cause the problems. As with every issue in our own lives and the lives of our beloved livestock; All things in moderation.
I trust my vet. He's not selling anything but medical advice for my livestock, so he has no agenda. This is the exact advice/information/knowlege that he imparted to me. Simply because this woman works for a nutritional supplement company doesn't mean she can't be telling the truth. I would prefer to believe that there are some honest and knowlegable folks in the industry who actually care about the livestock they are feeding. I'm not so cynical as to think the world has an agenda and can't be trusted.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I mix equal parts oats, barley and BOSS , going a little extra heavy on the barley with the addition of some alfalfa pellets. My goats get a lot of forage too.


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

thequeensblessing said:


> Vicki,
> As I stated, it was my vet who gave me this information initially. He stated that small amounts of molasses are actually beneficial to goats, and that in larger, more frequently fed doses cause the problems. As with every issue in our own lives and the lives of our beloved livestock; All things in moderation.
> I trust my vet. He's not selling anything but medical advice for my livestock, so he has no agenda. This is the exact advice/information/knowlege that he imparted to me. Simply because this woman works for a nutritional supplement company doesn't mean she can't be telling the truth. I would prefer to believe that there are some honest and knowlegable folks in the industry who actually care about the livestock they are feeding. I'm not so cynical as to think the world has an agenda and can't be trusted.


Unfortunately, a lot of where vets get their information from is the people who make these feeds. Vets don't get much information in vet school about nutrition......not much more than what you can find out on your own or what someone at a feed mill might know. In fact many vets refer their clients w/feeding troubles to a representative that they trust, and there are feed represtentatives that all they do is go to farms to "overhaul" feed programs etc. 

The vet I work for SWEARS that Purina makes the best feed all around and recommends nothing else. Unfortunately, a lot of his information is VERY much outdated. Purina used to be the front-runner of the nutrition game, but they've been far outpaced by several others. Still, he has a feed rep that sells him his line of information and he refers farms to this person. I personally roll my eyes (as do a few of the customers more educated in this area) knowing that there are feeds out there far better than what he's recommending. 

Even so......even HE knows that molasses isn't great as a feed additive and agrees that it's in there to mask poor quality grains, get picky eaters to eat and/or to satisfy the customer and recommends that people feed their livestock w/feeds containing little to no molasses. Unfortunately, Purina is one of the worst ones about packing their feeds w/molasses.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

more frequently fed doses cause the problems.
............................................

So molassas in the grain and minerals fed everyday of their lives isn't too much molassas?

We grain our does twice a day, we feed our minerals free choice all the time....nutrition in goats is frequent.

I am glad you have a vet who is great, I also do, but she doesn't know beans about goat nutrition. Vicki


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok learning I didn't know about molassas.I use to give a supplement that was heavy on molassas oly thing I ever worried about was them getting too fat.

Now as far as Rabbit Feed its been 40 years since I've mixed any but I don't remember putting any oils or filler in the mix,not much molassas.Mostly Alfalfa Meal,Ground Corn,Soybean Meal,Salt,Block Binder.

big rockpile


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

I called the coop that mixes my feed, and the mix includes salt, copper and other trace minerals as well as the corn, oat and barley. The previous owner (who designed the mix himself) couldn't get the goats to eat the whole feed (they picked out all the yummy grains) without so many pounds of molasses per ton to make it "cling" to the grain better.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> more frequently fed doses cause the problems.
> ............................................
> 
> So molassas in the grain and minerals fed everyday of their lives isn't too much molassas?
> ...


I suppose you and I just raise our goats differently. We never had any problems from following the advice of people like my vet, or Jackie. It always worked well for us. Our goats were always healthy and we never had any nutritional/metabolic problems. Equally important, your method obviously works well for you. Perhaps there is more than one way to properly feed a goat. We can just leave it at that.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Unfortunately, Purina is one of the worst ones about packing their feeds w/molasses>>>>

Arrrrrrgh! We just switched to Purina from the last supposedly inferior feed we were getting from our Farm and Home. I thought Purina was better! What _are_ the other brands that are better? I was hoping not to mix my own grain, since we only have a few goats. We do supplement with alfalfa pellets for the milkers and they all get a bit (1 cup total for all 5 goats) of beet pulp. 

Also, I just checked our beet pulp and it says it has molasses! 

And am I correct in assuming, Vicki, that you would recommend NO molasses?

Thanks!

Dee


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Yeah Dee, my feeding program is really straight forward...alfalfa pellets for protein and calcium (if I lived where there was good alfalfa hay and it wasn't $24.99 for a nasty 90 pound bale, I would feed it instead) the milkers...and everyone here is either a milker or a this spring born kid (and bucks  no dry yearlings allowed..gets oats...oats for carbs, calories. I am using veggy oil for fat with the last batch of flaked corn very questionable. 

My old grain mix is over $10 per 50 now, no way can I afford that, oats are still under $8. My old grain mix was the Equine Dry (corn oats barley etc. not a byproducts feed tag) from Pilgrims...Bluebonnet here sold by tractor supply has dry mixes also...Dry means no molassas and horse means better quality grains and minerals and levels of minerals above what they can put in goat feeds. Moving to horse grains you also get excellent mineral mixes in them not the 'calf pack' that is in most cow, hog and goat feeds.

I do feed my babies Pilgrims 16% meat goat pellet, it is a byproducts feed tag, but it is mostly alfalfa meal, grains and has a cocci drug and ammonium chloride in it for the bucklings I raise each year. It's my one convience feed I use, I also use this on the adult bucks, during rut and right after.

Everyones diet is heavy in alfalfa pellets, all have minerals out free choice, and of course water, grass hay (no more will be purchased this year unless we have a hurricane).

At some point you just have to say, this is what I am going to do, this is what I am going to spend and I can't do anymore...adding this and that and having 3 minerals out and bicarb etc....simply can no longer be justified. Vicki


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

So, if rabbit pellets won't work, what to do? She gets forage and/or grass hay all day this is just at the milking stand to help milk production a bit. There is grain mixed in here too, but is it still too much molasses? My mix is 1 part barley, 3 parts alfalfa or rabbit pellets. What do you think?


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

I've never heard of Pilgrims. Maybe not available in my area? If you had to pick the best commercial mix what would it be?


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## harplade (Jul 14, 2005)

I believe that For My ACDs said that not many vets learn about nutrition. I've been pleased to know that one of the undergrad tracks for students wanting to enter LSU Vet School is Nutrition. I'm not sure how many of them are doing it but maybe there is beginning to be a recognition of the importance of nutrition. I'm certainly going to begin asking my vets what they did their undergraduate studies in...

Also, Vicki, what minerals do you use? I'm not sure if I understood you to say that a little molasses in the minerals is ok but not in feed or is there a mineral supplement that is less molasses or do your goats get all their minerals through the horse feed, etc?

Thanks,
Harplade


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I feed Bluebonnet Tech Master complete...it does have some dried molassas in it, but it's about 1% and is the only source of iron in it. We feed grey minerals here because we are iron ore heavy, and iron depletes the copper we so need. The mineral is made for cattle, horses and goats and comes with a sheep warning. It's loose. The complete contains salt, the plain Tech Master which if you have to ship it is cheaper because you can purchase plain stock salt locally cheaper and add it to it yourself. I love this minerals because I only offer it, it contains the kelp and yeasts we used to add to our old minerals.

But yes for years we did rely heavily on our milkstand grain with it's wonderful minerals, now with the price and us feeding whole oats with no minerals, we have also started bolusing our goats for copper.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Kathryn, can you get good fat oats? Add them to your barley, you aren't supposed to feed only barley to rumanints, I know Tracy on our list is the real guru of websites about whole and crimped raw grains. I don't feed the alfalfa pellets on the milkstand because they simply can't eat enough of it quick enough while being milked. So the alfalfa pellets are fed in the bunker feeders in the barns, oats on the milkstand.

Moon spinner, the best grain mix is one being used by others so there is turnover and you aren't feeding old feed. It should be a menued feed tag it should state...corn oats barley soy etc...not grain by products, plain protein by products....all brands have their own dry mixes...Pilgrims is a southern mill....but Bluebonnet is not and it is carried by Tractor Supplies all over, they have premium products. Vicki


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Kathryn, can you get good fat oats? Add them to your barley, you aren't supposed to feed only barley to rumanints, I know Tracy on our list is the real guru of websites about whole and crimped raw grains. I don't feed the alfalfa pellets on the milkstand because they simply can't eat enough of it quick enough while being milked. So the alfalfa pellets are fed in the bunker feeders in the barns, oats on the milkstand.
> Vicki


I can get steam crimped oats. Will those work? I might be able to find whole oats straight off the field come harvest time, I don't know. How's wheat for goats? I mix my own chicken feed from crimped oats, barley, wheat and a little bit of corn. Sometimes BOSS, depending on price. Could she eat that? I can't feed pellets in the feeder because she's housed with my pack wethers. One, I try and avoid much of that for them and two, since she doesn't really like them, the boys get them all and she's left with nothing. That's why I've been trying to feed on the milk stand. I put her up there first thing so she can eat while I take care of the rabbits, chickens and other goats. Gives her a little more time. Thanks so much for the help!


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## Junkmanme (Dec 16, 2006)

Molasses is GOOD for includin' in the makin's of white likker!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Yes that is fine, your dry mix for your other stock, dry grain mixes like that are soo much better because they don't change, mix them the same way each time, goats do not do well with adjustments to the ration every month or so that feed mills do. Make your change to it slowly, and heavy on the oats and barley, less on the wheat and others things.

A good milker here needs to eat either alfalfa hay or about 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets each day to stay in good calcium levels. There is no calcium in your grain mix...so like me your calcium and protein has to come from your hay or alfalfa pellets, so you have to figure out a way to give her a chance to eat them. She may not like them now, or won't eat grain for awhile without mollasas on the feed, but she is better for the change of feed. It's like taking sugar frosted flakes away from your children, of course they prefer them over Allbran  Vicki


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

TSC in NY does not carry Blue Bonnet or pilgrim .... both names sound like northern names to why heck were did the pilgrims land ???????


I had them check the computers and it is not even listed , so no go for me.


Patty


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## PygmyLover (Oct 12, 2006)

I don't post much mainly because my way of doing things doesn't match up to the way a lot of people look at goat raising here.

But I have feed a sweet goat feed for years (same feed for 11 years) and I have never delt with Polio (thamine deficency) or any problems with my goats because of it.

The feed I use is Southern States Sweet goat feed. This feed is made with quality ingredients so I agree that it is the quality of feed not the mollasses that is the problem.

I also give mollasses water to pregnant does and to does who have recently kidded. They love it and it is an energy boost for them and provides other nutrients they need.

If your goats are fine on the sweet feed and the breeder also uses it WHY CHANGE? there is no reason to be causing a ruckus in your barn because some people dislike mollasses. Yes molasses in large amounts is not good (depleats the B viamine) but there isn't enough in your average sweet feeds to create a cause for concern.

A lady I know actually uses horse sweet feed for all her herd (this is over 100+ goats) and has done this for years. Her herd is healthy and thriving.

I know by personal experience it isn't as bad as people claim. Do research into what the mill uses for ingredients in the feed and see the molasses as a secondary concern.

As to the alfafa - I had milkers for years and alfafa is way to expensive here. They produced fine for me without it. They had plenty of browse which made up for it I assume. 

What works for one may not work for another so work with your situation and find a good solution for you and don't think less of yourself because it isn't what another person does. Nobody has all the answers I know that I am still learning.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

There is a huge difference in the needs of pygmy's and the needs of dairy goats in production. Your does nurse kids for 2 or 3 months, our does milk for 10 months, some on this board don't dry their does up for 2 or 3 years. Pygmy's are a meat breed, they certainly don't have calcium demands on them to fill those tiny udders of high fat milk. 

Most who feed sweet feed have no idea the percentage of molassas in their mix, you have to call the mill, in some cases like with Purina unless you send a feed sample into a lab, Purina won't tell you, it's a trade secret. Southern States has all natural feed, and yes fish and feather meal is completely natural, and the feeding of ruminants to ruminants is against federal law and is why it is on the label not because they choose to do it. Our coop also feeds bakery products like theres....bakery products are made with lard and white flour, things I do not want my milkrs eating producing milk for my family and customers.

Information changes on animal health, I didn't stop learning and keep feeding my goats the way I did back in the 80's. Perhaps the milkers you had way back when didn't milk as much as the does do now? Because I know when we were milking on sweet feed and grass hay using calcium carbonate and sorbate in the minerals for our calcium we were plagued with milkfever and hypocalcemia.

I am gald for the new information, it is cheaper to feed grain, they eat less of it than sacked byproducts. You get more milk on alfalfa so you can have less goats for the same amount of milk, and biggy, no metobolic deaths or problems in your best milkers.

It's a phenomenon seen at all dairies, the rolling herd average for milk goes down as the best milkers die off...the herd can remain quite healthy and beautiful on the inferior feeds because it's only inferior to the best milker...milk poorly and sweet feeds and grass hay can sustain you...course they then go out of business because it takes so much labor to milk out that 4 pounds a day out of each goat. Vicki


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

Vicki,
Are you feeding just oats and alfalfa pelletts or adding corn and barley? In that mix the protein is all in the alfalfa right? Many of mine do not like the alfalfa. So where would I suppliment the protien from, linseed meal, soybean meal( thought that was not good for them)?
Right now I feed horse feed from Blue seal, Charger. It is only 14%, I thought with the added alfalfa I would bump that up to at least 16% but not if they don't eat the alfalfa.
With the straight grain mix the loose minerals are important, is there a commercial one avail on the web. None at the feed stores here.
I swithched this year to the horse feed after reading your posts about the byproducts, I like it they have produced better but, the cost is killing me. Yep $10.35 for 50lbs.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

sorry I did not see page two.


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## PygmyLover (Oct 12, 2006)

actually my milkers produced so much we couldn't keep up with it. I was giving it away by the gallons.

I dont' have my milkers anymore - had to sell them so I could go to school - but it wasn't that long ago (2 years). So it is still fresh in my mind.

I fed this same sweet feed to my milkers and when I tried to change their production went down. 

Like I said before I agree it is the quality of the feeds (thankfully I have good quality feed available to me) but that should be the main concern NOT the molasses, when you are looking into a new feed.


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## lyceum (Oct 20, 2006)

Ok, stay with me here, I am going to respond to a bunch of different thoughts, comments, etc from this thread.

First, most vets know more than you think about animal nutrition. At Purdue pre-vet students are required to take at least 2 nutrition classes. Then, once in vet school, there are more nutrition classes. Our vet is getting a PhD and has to take even more advanced nutrition classes. Just watch which vets you talk to about nutrition. Some will know more than others. 


One of the feed stores we use is owned by a person that raises goats and has a degree in animal nutrition. He has helped feed companies to develop new goat feeds. He always tells us his best goat feed is the one that has steam rolled grains and molasses. It is a very good feed and they milk very very well on it. We have several does that will not eat our dry mix and they were put back on this feed and are milking twice what most of the others are milking. 

Our dry mix is COB, beet pulp, and a goat supplement (no molasses). We have more and more goats that will not eat this no matter what we do.

We have tried alfalfa hay and alfalfa pellets and they milk just as well on our grass/alfalfa mix hay than they do on alfalfa hay or pellets. 

Maybe a lot of this all has to do with location. What works for someone in TX might not work for someone in Minnesota. Do what works for you and not what everyone tells you works for them. Find your own mix or bagged feed.

Carisa


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