# Working Andalusians



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

This is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Andalusian horses when I lived in Spain. This is how they test the cows they plan to keep to breed the fighting bulls to see if they have the right aggressive instincts. No matter how you feel about bullfighting, the horses are absolutely incredible.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RAz3ZiRjw&feature=share[/ame]

(Hope this link works)


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Okay, all you enablers ... help me figure out how to "design" and produce an Andalusian pony! :teehee:


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> Okay, all you enablers ... help me figure out how to "design" and produce an Andalusian pony! :teehee:


Hmmm, I think if you put Cody to _just the righ_t Welsh Cob, you'd have a good start on the phenotype.
Something like the second mare on this page, Royal Match, what do you think?
http://www.brynayrewelshcobs.com/Mares.html
Then, maybe cross a Fell pony stallion on the right sportpony mare, maybe one with a touch of Arab blood, cross that foal with the first cross.

That would be a start I think...


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> Hmmm, I think if you put Cody to _just the righ_t Welsh Cob, you'd have a good start on the phenotype.
> Something like the second mare on this page, Royal Match, what do you think?
> http://www.brynayrewelshcobs.com/Mares.html
> Then, maybe cross a Fell pony stallion on the right sportpony mare, maybe one with a touch of Arab blood, cross that foal with the first cross.
> ...


You need the "baroque" look of an andalusian, with the heavier, arched neck, roman profile, substantial body, lots of knee/hock action and suspension.

And get it in 14 hand size!

I'm thinking preferred breeds to use, besides Andalusians, might include Fell Pony, Welsh Cob, Hackney Pony. Some mustangs are very Andalusian in type and movement both.

Cody is too refined. Chug might work better. 
Rambler (Welsh pony might work but would need to go to something with more body, more baroque head type, more knee/hock.
Hackney Pony stallion would work bred to big bodied mare.

Lady (Andalusian/Arab and more Arab-y type) would work bred for more knee/hock and more baroque head type.
Boo would put body and head type, needs more knee/hock/suspension.
Hackney Pony mare bred to Andalusian


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

It wouldn't be easy, the flaw in most ponies are short necks and narrow chests, If they have long necks that free up their action, they nearly always have narrow chests (too refined) if they have broad chests, they'll often have short necks (which seems linked to that choppy, "pony" type motion)

Getting a cross that keeps them both is a toughie, for sure. 
I think that Fell pony blood would be the key to it, as they are the breed that seems to come closest already, then you need to refine them, without loosing depth and while retaining motion.
Cody in himself is definitely too refined, but I still think that crossed to a heavier built mare with good motion, then the resulting _foal_ would be good to cross on a truly thick animal. 
Shame that Fell pony mares are so hard to come by.
Because if you had a Fell mare, then breeding her to a refined stallion and then finding the right cross for the offspring would be relatively easy.
As it stands, you're trying to come up with a mare refined enough to work but substantial enough to easily foal when crossed on a thick-bodied stallion like a Fell.

Of course, if there were more pictures of Chugwater (hint, hint) maybe some recent ones (hint, hint) even if they weren't all that good (like one might take just wandering outside, hint, hint) then we could see more what you're saying. 

Do you think that Boo could handle a Fell cross foal? Hope for a filly and then breed that filly to a more refined stallion?


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> Of course, if there were more pictures of Chugwater (hint, hint) maybe some recent ones (hint, hint) even if they weren't all that good (like one might take just wandering outside, hint, hint) then we could see more what you're saying.
> 
> Do you think that Boo could handle a Fell cross foal? Hope for a filly and then breed that filly to a more refined stallion?


Right now, Chug looks quite a lot like a Fell Pony except for the mane, tail and feathering!  He is definitely an easy keeper!

Boo could certainly handle a Fell cross foal. If I could find a 15 hand Andalusian stallion, I'd think about breeding her that direction as well and downsize the next generation (assuming a filly from that cross) to another Andalusian/Pony cross.

From a practical standpoint, what I should probably really look at is to breed for two fillies ... one 12 hands or so that could be bred to an Andalusian and get the 14 hand size ... another in the 14 to 15 hand range that could be bred to Fell Pony and come up with a 14 hand pony. Easiest, maybe, would be the small pony mare that could go to the Andalusian stallion.

I'm thinking maybe the best option really may be Lady to the Hackney Pony stallion. Another option ... Hackney Pony mare bred to my friends Mustang stallion, who is very baroque, around 14 hands but I suspect he carries the genetics for more size, as many mustangs do. This particular photo is taken at a slight angle, he is not as short bodied as he appears in this photo.










This is a better angle, but doesn't show the knee/hock action as well.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

That is a hunka-chunka stallion right there!
For Dreamer? Nice.

Hmm, I found Piconero lll who is only 15.1 and not grey, second one down http://www.springfever.com/andalusians.htm

And a sales ad puts this fellow at 14.2, but he _is_ a grey
http://avonleafarm.net/romancerodeevelon.html
http://www.stallionsnow.com/stallion-ad-278257

 Is that enough enabling for you?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Otter said:


> That is a hunka-chunka stallion right there!
> For Dreamer? Nice.
> 
> Hmm, I found Piconero lll who is only 15.1 and not grey, second one down http://www.springfever.com/andalusians.htm
> ...


If anyone is seriously considering doing anything with Avonlea, you are welcome to pm me first. I bought a horse from them and I can tell you of my personal experience. :flame:


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

That bad, huh? 
Just give me a little time, I can find other small Andalusian stallions for SFM <rubs hands and goes off to hunt through stallion ads>


----------



## bergere (May 11, 2002)

The original old Type Andys, most of the ones I worked with, way back when... where running around 14.2.

I am at the point in my life, I would love to have a traditional sized and temperament Andy Gelding.

There is an 14.2 Andy stallion for sale for $10,000.... if I had the money, would buy him and geld him!
Should of checked the links before... this is him!
http://www.stallionsnow.com/stallion-ad-278257


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

bergere said:


> The original old Type Andys, most of the ones I worked with, way back when... where running around 14.2.


Grr, Americans breed everything too tall. Sometimes to the point they might as well be an entirely different breed.

The other stallion I linked to is an import. Though a lot of those are more towards 16 hands lately.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Gee, thanks, I slipped in my own puddles of drool and hit my head on the desk.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Is 15.2 too big? He has color;
http://www.the4-13ranch.com/PAGES/horses/stallions/mateo.html

Becca, I hear they're passing out helmets in the goat forum...


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> Is 15.2 too big? He has color;
> http://www.the4-13ranch.com/PAGES/horses/stallions/mateo.html


Oh, oh, oh. For him, 15.2 is definitely not too big! :bouncy:

I always wanted to breed one of my warmblood mares to his sire, Saphiro and didn't manage to get it done.


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

I want to know who was on the ground with the camera in the video with the cows! LOL. Some shots you could tell were probably taken from a moving vehicle, when the horses were running, and the camera was following, but some looked like the camera was down in the grass. 

Hope they had a looooong lens. 

Those are amazing horses though. And the riders are even more amazing. They ride like they've been super-glued to the saddles!


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

birchtreefarm said:


> And the riders are even more amazing. They ride like they've been super-glued to the saddles!


I went to Spain after having ridden from the time I was 5 years old on the ranch and I was in my late 20s. I thought I could ride.

One of the first things that happened was the instructor put me on a school horse in a good sized round pen, put me in an English saddle, took my stirrups away, took my reins away and made me cross my arms behind my back so I was sitting straight up in the saddle.

The horse was voice trained W/T/C ... and REVERSE FROM CANTER!

I didn't end up on the ground but I did end up with both arms wrapped around the horse's neck.

THEN, he proceeded to teach me how to ride.

This was taken two years later.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== This is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Andalusian horses when I lived in Spain. This is how they test the cows they plan to keep to breed the fighting bulls to see if they have the right aggressive instincts. ===


Oh jeez! Absolute beauty in motion!!


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> THEN, he proceeded to teach me how to ride.


So what was that like? When I watch the video, I see the horses changing direction twice in a split second and the riders remaining fairly upright and centered. Not ramrod straight, but they never lose control of their upper half. They must have incredible sense of balance, but more than that, they must have great core strength to keep their upper bodies from simply continuing in the direction in which they were going a split second ago. I mean, most people (myself included I'm sure) would simply flop over sideways and end up in the dust when a horse changed direction like that. And of course they are really using their legs too, but they must be so in tune with the horse that they almost know what the horse is going to do before he does it.

On another topic, I love how the horses have this sort of "Bring it on! Neener neener - missed me again!" attitude. :-D


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Rogo said:


> === This is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Andalusian horses when I lived in Spain. ===
> Oh jeez! Absolute beauty in motion!!


It just literally blew me away and I grew up on a ranch working cattle with GOOD working cowhorses. The first rejoneador bullfight I saw, where they do all the bullfighting on horseback, like the horses you see here, not the padded horses with the rider with a lance they use before the torreador bullfights was incredible. They did these kinds of passes in the bullring with the bull ... and then one of the rejoneadors TOOK THE BRIDLE OFF THE HORSE ... and worked the bull.

Like I said, no matter what your feeling about the bullfighting, the horses, the riders and the training were incredible.



birchtreefarm said:


> So what was that like? When I watch the video, I see the horses changing direction twice in a split second and the riders remaining fairly upright and centered. Not ramrod straight, but they never lose control of their upper half. They must have incredible sense of balance, but more than that, they must have great core strength to keep their upper bodies from simply continuing in the direction in which they were going a split second ago.


It is totally a matter of balance, not strength. I spent probably close to a year before I really "got" it, with a lot of no stirrup/no reins/no hands riding, learning to keep centered. The best I can explain it is when your spine and the horse's spine are in alignment and your body is tuned in to the horse, you go with the horse, you are not 'following' the horse. The horses are so collected and well balanced themselves that if the rider is ... well, not exactly relaxed, but not tense ... and sitting down 'into' the horse ... you are just simply there ... a part of the horse.

I can still hear Santiago yelling at me (in Spanish of course) to keep my backside down in the saddle. We used to ride out on the little wagon tracks in the country ... trotting and cantering ... he would ride half a horse length behind me ... with a dressage whip, which he was NOT using on the horse!


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> It is totally a matter of balance, not strength. I spent probably close to a year before I really "got" it, with a lot of no stirrup/no reins/no hands riding, learning to keep centered. The best I can explain it is when your spine and the horse's spine are in alignment and your body is tuned in to the horse, you go with the horse, you are not 'following' the horse. The horses are so collected and well balanced themselves that if the rider is ... well, not exactly relaxed, but not tense ... and sitting down 'into' the horse ... you are just simply there ... a part of the horse.


Yes, I can understand that. But I think you must naturally develop some strength in your core (you probably already had it since you'd been riding your whole life). You can't be balanced without those muscles being nicely toned. 




SFM in KY said:


> I can still hear Santiago yelling at me (in Spanish of course) to keep my backside down in the saddle. We used to ride out on the little wagon tracks in the country ... trotting and cantering ... he would ride half a horse length behind me ... with a dressage whip, which he was NOT using on the horse!


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> This was taken two years later.


On another topic.... what kind of saddle is that you are using?


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Forgot about this little mare. She's small (under 11 hands) so will be bred to a small pony stallion this year for her first foal ... very fortunately I have a black/bay Hackney Pony stallion :clap: so likely to get bay silver or black silver.

However, the following year, barring any problems, I can reasonably look at stallions for her up to about 14 or 15 hands! She's the older Shetland-ish type, big bodied and stocky ... a little on the baroque side even.

Whee! Where are the black Andalusians? I can see a 13 hand black silver dapple Andalusian pony in my future! :rotfl:


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

What about the old type Morgans? They aren't very big and are often rather Baroque looking to me? Just a thought.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

GrannyCarol said:


> What about the old type Morgans? They aren't very big and are often rather Baroque looking to me? Just a thought.


Yes, I agree ... I've seen some that are very baroque in type. In fact, the same lady that has the mustang stallion has a 14 hand black Morgan/sportpony cross mare she bought from me a number of years ago that is very baroque as well. (Morgan stallion crossed on one of my warmblood x pony cross mares)










I may be tempted, at some point, to see if I can lease the mare back for a season, but she is breeding for baroque ponies and really likes what she is getting from this mare crossed to the mustang stallion.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> I may be tempted, at some point, to see if I can lease the mare back for a season, but she is breeding for baroque ponies and really likes what she is getting from this mare crossed to the mustang stallion.


Could you just buy one of her fillies out of this cross and go from there?

And that first stallion I posted, the second one down on this page, http://www.springfever.com/andalusians.htm is 15.1 and described as black-bay, the darkest I've heard not just called black (wonder if they color tested?)


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> Could you just buy one of her fillies out of this cross and go from there?
> 
> And that first stallion I posted, the second one down on this page, http://www.springfever.com/andalusians.htm is 15.1 and described as black-bay, the darkest I've heard not just called black (wonder if they color tested?)


Unfortunately, they've only had one filly and it is definitely not for sale! She's building her breeding herd. I'm not even sure how good my chances are to lease the mare even, she's getting some age on her.

I don't know about the stallion ... hard to tell if they color tested but I suspect from the photos that he is 'technically' bay ... with the agouti gene, regardless of how dark he is. Consequently a good chance of his producing bay rather than black. I suspect my Hackney Pony may be 'black bay' as well ... he looks black except for a reddish tinge along the flanks and shoulders. Hard to tell if he is just a very dark bay, or a 'fading' black ... keeping fingers crossed for black ... and black silver dapple!


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Before the breeding season even begins!

My absolute line-drawn in the sand position is no more than four mares bred whose foals are not spoken for before the mare is bred (and this does NOT include the mares I may keep a foal from).

I already have six mares on the list! eep: Oops!

*Melody* x Rambler (my Welsh stallion): Must be bred because of her age. Will keep a filly.

*Madeira* x Belefonte (RPSI sportpony): Stud fee already paid. Will keep a filly.

*Junebug* x Roco (dilute mustang): Will keep filly

*Daisy* x Cadet (Hackney Pony stallion): Will keep filly

Should/ would like to breed:

Conne (RPSI approved small warmblood mare): She could be bred to either pony for a sportpony or warmblood stallion for dressage/hunter/eventing

Lady (Andalusian/Arab): Won't be bred if she is in foal to Blarney, nay have been bred late summer when Blarney let himself out and went visiting. Could be bred for either more "baroque" or more "sporthorse/sportpony".

I need to hope for colts, otherwise I'm keeping way too many fillies ... and need someone that wants a foal out of one of the last two mares if I don't want to make a liar out of myself! 

:help:


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Sorry, I can't help, but I did get a chuckle out of that, does that count??? Good luck!


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I feel pretty lucky, for a few months while living in AZ. I worked on a Andalusian farm.
( AOA ) Andalusians Of Arizona.
It was a retired lady from the Chicago area, she built WAY out in the boondocks.
Had to cross to Fenced in fields cross a dry river bed just to get to her place.
Her house was a Log home, my trainers house was also a log home, and the barn was also made out of logs. Looked fantastic way out in no mans land.

Just to get mail you had to drive 10 miles, to get a supply of food stuffs was a 25 mile trip. And 50 miles to Serria Vista, AZ a large city in Southern AZ.
I worked with the young stock mostly the babies.
At the time I was there she was talking to oh my yes Mohammed Ali. She did not sell him one, but boy I was hoping she would so I could meet him~!!!!


----------



## barnbrat76 (Mar 16, 2011)

Breed Conne to Fandango.


----------



## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

barnbrat76 said:


> Breed Conne to Fandango.


I'd think seriously about ordering a foal from that breeding because that would probably make a great hunter/eventer.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

barnbrat76 said:


> Breed Conne to Fandango.


I'm leaning that direction if I can get a contract on the foal. He would be a 'big horse' foal and I absolutely have to have those sold and gone when they are weaned. I can't handle them safely anymore.

Edited to add: you're probably right about the hunter/ eventing potential. Conne herself has been shown quite a lot, very successfully, as a hunter. Fandango is, of course, heavily dressage bred but is on the refined/modern type side so I would expect a foal from this cross to be pretty enough for hunters, do well in hunters and be able to gallop for eventing.


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Really? To me, hunters and eventers are very different types of horses.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

malinda said:


> Really? To me, hunters and eventers are very different types of horses.


True ... but in the warmblood world, the lighter framed horses tend to 'cross over' more to hunters and eventing. You see more of the traditional warmblood types in dressage and jumping and the ones that have been bred with more TB and Trakehner lines tend to be seen more in the hunter rings and eventing. You aren't going to have a horse that is an A ring hunter and mid or upper level eventer both, but the same basic type ... more modern/TB ... is going to be more suitable for those two disciplines than the more traditional type warmblood.

However, one of the first Weltstern colts I bred, out of a TB mare, ended up with a lady in Washington state, who took him to Intermediate in eventing ... and a local 4H girl borrowed him at state fair when her own horse went lame, and ended up placing at state on him in children's hunters. He wasn't a "A" ring hunter but he was certainly competitive at the regional and state levels.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> Really? To me, hunters and eventers are very different types of horses.


Huge difference between an eventer and a show hunter, a field hunter would be a better comparison for type and movement.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Huge difference between an eventer and a show hunter, a field hunter would be a better comparison for type and movement.


Field hunter would be a better comparison. I'm not a show hunter person and never was so not a good person to evaluate show hunters. What little hunter experience I've had has been with the Connemaras and actually, in that breed, you have a number of ponies that have been successful in eventing, as show hunters and as field hunters ... mostly at the lower levels, but the sire of Blarney's dam had awards in all three, plus driving and dressage.

I'm seeing a little more of a move toward versatility in the warmbloods over the last 5 years or so ... a lot of them are going into the hunter rings very successfully ... and you're seeing more of them eventing as well.


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

SFM in KY said:


> I'm seeing a little more of a move toward versatility in the warmbloods over the last 5 years or so ... a lot of them are going into the hunter rings very successfully ... and you're seeing more of them eventing as well.


Wouldn't that be due to the change in format (for Eventers)? TBs and Trakehners dominate the sport at the upper levels because they have the stamina. Now with the changed format, other WBs are more competitive because the horses just don't need the stamina they once did.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

malinda said:


> Wouldn't that be due to the change in format (for Eventers)? TBs and Trakehners dominate the sport at the upper levels because they have the stamina. Now with the changed format, other WBs are more competitive because the horses just don't need the stamina they once did.


That could be a big part of it. And I know the hunter thing has driven some of the changes in warmblood type from 'useful' to 'pretty'. Friends who are still heavily involved in the warmblood inspections with their warmbloods are mentioning this trend to me ... some registries more than others ... but the general trend seems to be to score a more 'modern' type higher ... not as much bone, not as heavy a body, prettier heads ... and in some more extreme cases, flatter movement as well.

There are warmblood breeders now that are marketing heavily to the hunter people ...


----------

