# urgent, help needed with feral hive



## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

I was hoping to get calls to exterminate bee swarms, but was figuring May is the normal swarming time here. I always contact several area beekeepers before I exterminate a swarm. This year I wanted to adopt one. Well, today, I got a call from a crew that cut into a tree and found a mature hive, apparently healthy. I have 3 days to take the hive.

The temperature today is mild for January, but we are to get a storm tonight.

I'm guessing the exposed hive may be in danger if the temperature goes too low. Then again, I am guessing it may be easier to take the hive when its very cold.

I have the personal safety equipment, and I just got a bee hive. The bee hive is used and I haven't cleaned it up yet.

How should I do this?

I'm guessing:
1) set up the hive
2) if its cold enough I may not need a smoker
3) carefully remove comb and honey and save every bit
4) try to locate the queen
5) remove half of the frames from 2 hive boxes
6) (I don't have a queen excluder) put the queen in a hive box
7) fill up the empty space with honey and comb from the hive
8) ??????

Thanks in advance for the help


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## bare (May 10, 2002)

Don't you get winters in Colorado?

If it were me, I wouldn't even disturb the bees. They are in their winter cluster and trying to move them into a hive body will disorient them and probably cause their demise.

If it were me, I'd carefully determine the location of the hive in the tree trunk and saw out that portion. Cover both ends for transport and take them home. At home you can fashion a bottom board and a cover for your stump and set it back upright. Make sure there is an entryway, even if you have to drill a couple holes, one in top and one in bottom for ventilation.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Thanks for the suggestion. I just returned from inspecting the site. Unfortunately, the remaining stump that houses the comb is about 6 foot in diameter. The cut on the stump starts at about 1 1/2 feet and the top of the stump is about 3 feet high, but the comb goes below ground a little ways. The break exposes the hive in an advantageous way (to me or a bear). While some of the comb has been broken, it appears the majority is still intact. It sits right outside the entry to a junior high school and I have exactly 3 days before it will be dug out. There is about a dinner plate sized swarm of bees on the surface of one of the breaks in the comb. 

I could ask the maintenance crew to take the stump/hive to one of their yards and wait till spring to harvest it, but I'm afraid the excavation and move will damage the hive further. Would they move if they are disturbed enough. 

I covered the stump with a blanket, and left a note of caution to the resident teenagers. I'm thinking I will go late tonight when the storm is coming and take them out of the stump.

I don't have electricity within a few hundred feet, so I can't use a vacuum device. Now I'm thinking I will take them out of the stump and put them in a box. Then I will put the box next with openings adjacent to the hive and place the honey in the hive with some of the bees.

I hope to get pictures and will post them.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The bees will not go into the box: they will cluster around their queen.

I don't think they CAN fly away: it would be too cold in Colorado for them to move once they are away from the winter cluster.


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## justgojumpit (May 5, 2003)

if it were warm enough that the bees are not in a cluster, or are in a loose cluster, i would advise drumming them out in this case. The way you do this is to fit your hive over the top of the tree stump. i doubt there would even be brood at this stage to keep the bees from leaving. now, hammer on the side of the stump about once per second for several minutes. for such a big trunk, it may take a light sledge hammer to do the trick. the bees should move up into the new hive. you can then harvest the comb from the hive and tie it into deep frames, keeping the cells in the same orientation as they were in the hive (up-down) I would try this first. 

If this doesn't work, try smoking the bees down into the hive. then remove as much comb as you can, and set this aside in a closed container. somehow suspend a piece of the comb you harvested down into the now partially empty hive, after first spraying it with a sugar solution. there should be bees all over it. put this comb covered with bees on the top bars of your bottom hive body. seal the hive, plugging all entrances and exits (with an empty super over the bottom box. the frames of drawn comb in your bottom box should be sprayed with sugar solution too.)

repeat the process until you aren't getting too many bees anymore. then remove more comb, smoking the bees down further into the hive if necessary. continue with this process until done. 

If you had all season, i would recommend different methods, but that is not an option. try to get the queen. if you can't find her, or don't know if you have her, wait till spring, and if there are no eggs then, then you should mail-order a queen.

good luck! 

justgojumpit

P.S. cleaning out the hive is not imperative, it will just make it easier to work. it should't take more than a half-hour anyway.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Terri said


> I don't think they CAN fly away: it would be too cold in Colorado for them to move once they are away from the winter cluster.


Thanks Terri.
One would think it was too cold, but there were bees flying around the stump today. I also talked to a beekeeper here in Denver today who said his bees were active today. So its a day to day thing in the winter in Colorado. I have seen other hives active this time of year before.

Thanks Justgojumpit, I'm counting on the low temperature to reduce their activity. I don't have a smoker. I will try the thumping routine and if it doesn't work, I will just transfer comb and bees to the super.


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## bare (May 10, 2002)

Hard to imagine in the "Mile High City", in the middle of Colorado in the middle of January, somebody even thinking of rescuing a colony of bees!

It's 10 degrees here with wind gusting to 40 miles an hour. If anyone called me to come get some bees, they'd get a cold reception from me!

I'm gonna be totally amazed if you pull this off, so I do hope that you will keep us posted and do put up some pics.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

The storm did not come in last night, but it is here this morning. Last night it was warmer than it is now. I plan to get the colony tonight. I will take pictures, and keep this thread updated as things evolve.

Thanks for the support.


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## Oregonsparkie (Sep 3, 2003)

I agree with the above post... Extract the stump and wait for warmer weather...


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Well, I did it tonight.

Although it warmed up after the morning snow, it was clear and as soon as the sun went down, it got cold - real cold. 

When I got to the school, someone had taken my blanket and sign :waa: , but didn't vandalize the hive  . I took a 15 gallon plastic container, and my bee hive setup. The bees were down in the comb when I got there. I removed all the broken comb down in the bole of the tree, and put it into the plastic container. I think there was around 60 pounds. Then I used a saw and cut the comb where it attached to the stump. I pulled out big chunks covered with bees and put them into the super. I had removed about half of the frames. I got most of the bees this way. I just layed the comb in the wooden hive. They didn't fly at all. One got down my glove and stung my palm. I sprayed the frames with sugar water, and the comb once I placed it in the box. I duct taped the boxes to the bottom board and taped the entry closed. Tape doesn't work real well when it is cold. Still, it kept them together and I was able to move the assembly from the stump into my van. I probably got another 50-60 pounds of honey inside the hive.

I did take a few pictures, but I haven't got them ready to post yet.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Sounds like a strong hive. I hope the tape allows enough air to come in.


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## justgojumpit (May 5, 2003)

hey gary, glad to know that you already have some bees set up in that hive! good luck with the winter, you will probably have to feed them the whole way through.

justgojumpit


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

I took the bee hive boxes out of the van this morning. First, though, I lifted the lid to see what I had wrought. The bees were mostly in the bottom and they were buzzing like crazy. I closed the lid and put the assembly on my two wheeler and started for the compost area of my yard. When I got to the edge of the sidewalk, the boxes slid apart a little and about a dozen bees came out. They were pretty slow and most of them went right back in the box. I closed it and carefully rolled the setup back through the garden. When I got it situated I opened the lid again. Now a bunch of bees were near the top of the box. I closed it and removed tape from the regular entry space.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Then you succeeded! Do you know how HARD that is supposed to be? Collecting a wild hive in a cold area in winter? :haha:


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## justgojumpit (May 5, 2003)

Gary, congratulations! that is truly awesome! you will probably have some cleanup work in spring to get those old frames out of the upper box. when the time comes, we should all get together again and brainstorm a way to get the the bees to move out of this tangled mass of comb! enjoy, though Gary, as you have really accomplished something quite awesome.

justgojumpit


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## bare (May 10, 2002)

I wonder. If they make it through the winter, and I do stress, make it, the bees may put things to right on their own. 

I've had hives that were totally destroyed by a bear, early in the spring. Still freezing... but after I put them back together, they managed to pull it together and rebuild everything on their own.

Bees are pretty remarkable critters. I've taken drawn comb and thrown it in a hive, looking in on it from time to time and pretty soon, it's completely gone. The bees have moved all the honey, pollen and moved the wax to re-build properly aligned and usable space in their home.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Thanks for the encouragement and help.
I didn't get to check on them today, so, no new report. I did get 4 pictures and will get them up this weekend.

justgojumpit said


> try to get the queen. if you can't find her, or don't know if you have her, wait till spring, and if there are no eggs then, then you should mail-order a queen.


I sure didn't have a chance to look for the queen. 

I still have a few questions:

1. How often should I open the hive and check them out.

2. I bet I put about 30 pounds of comb, honey, and bees into my hive. What should I look for to determine if I need to feed them? 

3. I didn't need any personal protective gear (except gloves) because it was near 10 degrees when I took the colony. Should I dress up just to check out what they are doing inside the hive? 

4. I used 1 super and one small box to house these bees. The frames in the super were empty, the smaller upper frames had decent comb. I only put about half of the frames in each to allow room for the comb and bees. How long should I wait to add another shallow box? Should I order some inserts for the super frames?

5. I got a book on making mead for Christmas. The book said the hive has eggs in it now. This sounds a little strange to me because the lifecycle is too short, unless it slows way down through the winter. Should I look through the rest of my comb and honey for eggs and larvae?

6. I would love to make a batch of mead. I have honey now, but it is in the comb. Can I use a salad spinner to separate it? How should I store the left over honey and comb? 

7. Some of the comb is empty but in good shape. Can the bees make use of that comb now? Should I put some in the hive?

Thanks again for all the support.
Gary


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## bare (May 10, 2002)

Bees this time of year in northern climates are in survival mode. If you were to look inside, your bees will likely be all in a ball in the center of the hive. It's called a "winter cluster". The cluster is always moving, the inside or warmer bees take their turn on the outside, while the outside ones crawl in to warm up.

They'll stay in cluster until spring, although on some warmer, sunny days, you may see some cleansing flights where the bees go out to poop.

They don't use a lot of food right now and won't until the queen starts laying and the hive begins to build up. Then look out, what seemed like plenty of food disappears over night. If it were me, I'd keep your honey score and feed it back to them if necessary. Honey is of course being far better for them than sugar.

Sounds like the hard part for you is going to be to leave them alone but that's what you should do in my opinion. They've already been more than severly stressed and exposed to very cold temps. Every time you peek in you chill them and stress them some more. I would seldom ever pop the lid unless it was 70 degrees or more. It's amazing how much you can tell from watching and listening to your hive from the outside. I can sit for hours, purely enjoying watching a busy and happy colony!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

30 pounds of honey is not enough for Colorado. 

In the summer I feed a hive by filling a jar with syrup, punching a few small holes in the lid, and turning it upside down with something under it so that the bees can reach the holes. I honestly do not know if that would work in the winter. Because I am a newbie myself, I put a bag of dry sugar in each hive this winter. Sugar is not the best feed for bees, but at least they cannot drown in it.

In this area, Kansas, the queens should start laying about now. I don't know about your area, or if where you live even matters. They start with just a few eggs, which means that the first few bees will leave their cocoons in February. By February, in this area, the Queen will be laying well so that there is a healthy young workforce this spring.

I do not open the hive unless it is warm enough for the bees to be flying. I PREFER to wait until it is over 60, because bees do not take kindly to being chilled. It injures any brood that they might have, and if a cold bee leaves the winter cluster for any reason it might die before it can work its way back. 

Gobug, you do not want to be stung around the eyes or inside your ear. I reccomend some kind of a bee veil when you open your hive. That, and gloves, is generally all that I use.

When brood rearing is in full swing you must check your hives regularly to make sure they have enough feed. An experienced bee keeper with a hive with plenty of stores may check his hive twice in the spring. As a newbie I intend to check much more often than that. Also, I will check to make certain that the queen is laying.

I think that right now your bees have all of the damaged comb that they can use. When the weather is reliably warm, you might consider putting bought frames with foundation in a box on top of the hive. When they want the room, the bees will draw the comb and gradually move up. Then, you can remove the lower boxes after they have moved out and keep the wax for candles.

Your bees are not out of the woods yet. The move has stressed them out BIG time, and there is still a good deal of winter to go. But, if you got the queen you MIGHT have a bloodline that is resistant to mites. A very desirable trait. I would treat them anyways to be on the safe side, but mite resistance is being bred for right now because some of the mites are getting resistant to the chemicals being used to kill them.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

I will try to post a picture, here goes.http://image28.webshots.com/29/8/79/57/251487957TmCkcQ_ph.jpg

This is the first picture I took. It's looking at the comb with the bees along the edge above the spot of light.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

I'll try again.








maybe this will work now.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Ok, here are two more.
The second picture is of the stump. It is about 6 feet from the top back to the lower front. The hole in the bole is big enough to stand in.












The next picture shows the last large sheet of comb. Most of the bees were already inside my hive box.


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## justgojumpit (May 5, 2003)

gary, i would really like to see your pictures, but they are just coming up as icons with a red X in the middle. maybe you could email them to me? thanks.

justgojumpit


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

That is strange. They were there when I posted my reply. Now when I look, I get the same result. You can see the pictures if you right click on the red x and select properties to copy the address.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Yes, that works. It's always interesting to see how bees like to place their combs, as opposed to how a hive is set up.

Here's an idea: right now a lot of people are regressing their bees to small-cell comb. It generally takes a few generations to get them small enough to have the added mite resistance.

Since these are wild bees, they are probably ALREADY small. This gives them some added mite resistance. You might want to consider small-cell foundation when you are ready to work with them this spring.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Thanks again Terri for some excellent advice.

I will get some foundations including some small cell. Should I also get some drone foundations?

I will fight my great desire to see what's going on inside the box. Denver weather is really pretty mild in the winters. While tend to get the biggest snow storms when the broncos play on monday nights, there are many winter days that are in the 50's. 

Should I cover the box with a blanket for a little extra insulation??

Gary


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I don't know about blankets: here in windy Kansas no blanket would stay on so I haven't even STARTED to think about blankets! PErhaps I should consider it. I have set up wind breaks for mine so they might stay on. Maybe.

As for drone comb, I wouldn't bother with it. They manage to start enough drones here and there. Most beekeepers try to PREVENT drones, and most fail.

The reason for the drone combs is to trap mites. After the drones cells have been capped, they are removed and frozen to kill everything. Mites only lay eggs inside capped brood comb, and they prefer drone cells to anything else.

HAve you checked out beesource yet? They have some very good bee threads going right now.


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## bare (May 10, 2002)

I've used 2" Cellotex, or foam insulation on my hives with good success. I duct tape it to three sides and the top, leaving the front open. It really cuts down on the wind and helps hold the heat, plus you can use it year after year.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Bare,

Thanks. Fortunately, the hive sits in a very protected spot and will not get any direct wind. Still, I will take the partial sheet of 1" foil backed foam and cover as much I can, as you described.

Terri, what is the URL for beesource? Beesource.com?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Yes. www.beesource.com


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

I have heeded Terri's advice and not disturbed the bees. I was worried because I couldn't hear or see any activity. But I left them alone. Well,today it was 75 degrees here in Denver. I left the house early, but got home while it was still above 60. There were a lot of bees flying around the hive!! I still left them alone.

Terri,
I did join Beesource. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

AWSOME! 

Did you notice how they hover while facing the hive? They are learning the location of their new home, and then they go off and defecate. They will not soil the hive if they can help it, so they go out on any days warm enough to fly. In the winter they only have to relieve themselves a couple of times, so they can wait for warm weather.

My 3 hives were flying yesterday as well. This is my first winter keeping bees, and I was impressed by how BUSY they all got as soon as it warmed up!

I will probaly open my hives in 2 weeks or so to see if the queens are laying and to check on how much food they have left. I don't know when it is considered right to open a hive that has just been moved: I don't know of anyone else who has moved a hive in the winter! :haha:


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## bare (May 10, 2002)

Terri said:


> AWSOME!
> 
> They will not soil the hive if they can help it, so they go out on any days warm enough to fly. In the winter they only have to relieve themselves a couple of times, so they can wait for warm weather.


::chuckle::
Not the inside anyway! I've had some hives with the outside and landing board so covered in bee poop, the hive looked like it was repainted on the front. The only way for it to have gotten there was by divebombing.

I've always kinda secretly wondered if the mess was the work of competing bees from other colonies? 

::Hey, Matilda, lets go poop on the Carney's hive!::


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

As an exterminator, I often look for bug poop - usually looks like pepper.

Some have poop pheremones that serve to identify the harborage. (like cockroaches and bedbugs)

I have noticed several varieties of wasp that "mark" their space.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

bare said:


> ::chuckle::
> Not the inside anyway! I've had some hives with the outside and landing board so covered in bee poop, the hive looked like it was repainted on the front. The only way for it to have gotten there was by divebombing.
> 
> I've always kinda secretly wondered if the mess was the work of competing bees from other colonies?
> ...


And, heaven FORBID that somebody hung clothes on a line! :haha: 

OK, let me amend that. They try not to poop INSIDE the hive! 

Bee poop is, so I am told, yellow and liquid. I have yet to notice any, probably because when the bees were flying the white snow was already melted.


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