# Why big city public schools are better



## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

OK, now that the thread title got your attention...

My wife just called; she works at a local agri-tourism "farm" that sets up every fall with a fall fair on the farm program. The kids get to see farm animals, pumpkins, etc and enjoy mazes, moon bounces, etc. Schools from all over bring bus loads of kids. 

Today, one of the DC public schools brought 2 buses, about 70 first graders. The kids were turned loose for several hours with no requirement to check in with the teachers or chaperones and no planned learning activities by the teachers. About 30 minutes after their buses left, 2 six year olds began to ask why they didn't see any of their school chums and the kids got turned over to my wife who has a teaching degree and is great with kids. 

It took a few minutes to figure out the kids had been abandoned, which school they were from, and to call the school to report what my wife and I would call the criminal negligence of the teachers. The school's principal is on the way to retrieve the kids, but in the outbound rush hour traffic from DC, that could be an hour or three before he gets there. 

DC schools are among the most expensive/student in the nation and have about the worst results in terms of grad rates, college bound rates, and standardized test result. Based on this today, I have to assume that DC public schools are also the lowest in concerned and competent teachers. 

But maybe the teachers figured that taking 70 students and returning with 68 was a 97% success rate. That's pretty good and helps with that pesky smaller class size problem. :stars:


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## PNWKatie (Aug 4, 2012)

*snort* Yep sounds like a 97% success rate. Or maybe they can't count that high? Gotta love those public school systems. If I was a parent of one of those kids, My kid would be pulled out of that school so fast and legal action (I'm not usually a Let's Sue mentality, but these are MY CHILDREN!) would be resulting faster than that principal can drive there to pick up my kid!


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

But Katie - you are missing the big picture. I just did some math and found that with a success rate of 97%, it would take almost an entire school year before they lost all the children!

That's good, right? :doh:


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## PNWKatie (Aug 4, 2012)

So lets see: We pay them extremely well, and they lose your kids...Hmmm. Of course, then they have to start all over again next year with a new class. Yep, I can see why they are one of the most expensive student pay ratio's around. They keep getting more and more kids to lose. I just have to wonder why we pay them to lose the kids when there are so many "free" resources out there..


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

If you don't like the job they're doing then feel free to get your degree and do their job. 

My guess is that you'd change your tune before the first recess.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> If you don't like the job they're doing then feel free to get your degree and do their job.
> 
> My guess is that you'd change your tune before the first recess.


Oh, there is no doubt I would be a terrible teacher, I don't have the patience for it. But when I volunteered to chaperone when my wife was teaching or when my daughter was younger, I never, ever, not once lost two children. Heck, I never, ever, not once lost one child.

The teachers drove off without supervising their kids for 3 to 4 hours, without taking attendance, and an hour later did not realize they had lost two children. You can defend public schools and teachers all you want, but they will never get better if you tolerate complete incompetence and criminal neglect.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not sure tolerating incompetence is quite the same thing as pointing out that most teachers _don't_ misplace students.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

ErinP said:


> I'm not sure tolerating incompetence is quite the same thing as pointing out that most teachers _don't_ misplace students.


???

I don't see how that follows from my posts.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

No one is tolerating incompetence _or_ neglect. 
Nor do most teachers lose track of students.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

ErinP said:


> No one is tolerating incompetence _or_ neglect.
> Nor do most teachers lose track of students.


since the DC school system has been well funded and low ranked for years, someone is tolerating incompetence. Assuming these teachers are not fired, the principal, union, and school system are tolerating incompetence. 

And I'm not sure why you keep saying most teachers don't lose students. I haven't said or implied that most teachers lose students, only that these particular teachers did. 

I still don't understand your comments.


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## Canning Girl (Jan 13, 2010)

As a former teacher, I can tell you that one of the cardinal rules of field trips is that you take roll and do a head count EVERY time you get on the bus. It is incomprehensible to me that you would misplace a child. The teachers should be written up and reprimanded at the very least and probably should be fired.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

CesumPec said:


> since the DC school system has been well funded and low ranked for years, someone is tolerating incompetence. Assuming these teachers are not fired, the principal, union, and school system are tolerating incompetence.
> 
> And I'm not sure why you keep saying most teachers don't lose students. I haven't said or implied that most teachers lose students, only that these particular teachers did.
> 
> I still don't understand your comments.


I think you've lost track of your thread. 
Not all respondents were speaking of your school district in particular. 

More importantly, we don't know _exactly_ what happened here. We are grand-stand quarterbacking. I would bet money they don't routinely misplace students in YOUR district, either.
They should indeed be reprimanded. I don't know about firing because I don't know exactly what happened. (Nor do you, apparently). That's not "tolerating incompetence."
However, you seem to have a very clear opinion of the district anyway.


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## WJMartin (Nov 2, 2011)

It's a sad reality that parents aren't expected/invited/allowed to attend with the kids on such field trips. I think that there are alot less problems with a higher rate of adults/children and maybe somebody would remember to take roll call.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

I would have thought DC to central Florida would have taken more than an hour or three even if it wasn't rush hour.

Which school was it? Which farm?


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

mistletoad said:


> I would have thought DC to central Florida would have taken more than an hour or three even if it wasn't rush hour.
> 
> Which school was it? Which farm?


I share time between northern VA and central FL. This week I was in NOVA with my family until this morning. Now I'm back in the sunshine, warmth, and ready to get some real work done on the farm.

Cox Farm and I can't remember what school. My wife was talking and you know how hard it is for husbands to pay attention to details.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

ErinP said:


> I think you've lost track of your thread.
> Not all respondents were speaking of your school district in particular.
> 
> More importantly, we don't know _exactly_ what happened here. We are grand-stand quarterbacking. I would bet money they don't routinely misplace students in YOUR district, either.
> ...


I've lost track of your non sequitor and we do know exactly what happened. We might not know all the details but exactly two children were left behind and an hour later the teachers and the school became aware of it only when the farm workers called them. 

And yes, i have a definite opinion of one of the most expensive / student school systems in the country (fact) with about the worst results on a number of pertinent measures (more facts). They have had school that were closed by the health dept for maintenance and cleanliness issues (fact).


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Things like this usually get on the news, even in big cities. Do you have a link? Please don't condemn all schools based on the actions (or inactions) of one.


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> If you don't like the job they're doing then feel free to get your degree and do their job.
> 
> My guess is that you'd change your tune before the first recess.


You have to have a degree to lose other folks children in DC?


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## PNWKatie (Aug 4, 2012)

Wow. I just searched "Kids left behind on School field trip" and was surprised by the amount of incidents that came up.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

thesedays said:


> Things like this usually get on the news, even in big cities. Do you have a link? Please don't condemn all schools based on the actions (or inactions) of one.


agreed. and if you can point to where I have done that I will retract the statement.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

CesumPec said:


> DC schools are among the most expensive/student in the nation and have about the worst results in terms of grad rates, college bound rates, and standardized test result. Based on this today, I have to assume that DC public schools are also the lowest in concerned and competent teachers.





thesedays said:


> Things like this usually get on the news, even in big cities. Do you have a link? Please don't condemn all schools based on the actions (or inactions) of one.





CesumPec said:


> agreed. and if you can point to where I have done that I will retract the statement.


Well, when viewing the above 3 quotes, you definitely asserted your opinion that ALL of the DC school teachers are incompetent based on the actions of several. 

Martin


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Martin, 

I have said the teachers who lost students are incompetent and I have said the DC school system is incompetent. Both can be true without ALL of the teachers being incompetent. In fact, it could be a very few teachers who are incompetent along with incompetent senior management that can produce an incompetent school system. Or it could be governmental interference or neglect that could produce an incompetent school system even if all the school employees were highly competent. 

When I said, "I have to assume that DC public schools are also the lowest in concerned and competent teachers," I make this assumption based on the additional information that DC schools have been under performing for the 4 decades I have been interested in the topic and the teachers have consistently fought against reforms rather than fought for reforms. 

What you are committing is the logical fallacy of composition. The fallacy of Composition is committed when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its constituents when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference. There are actually two types of this fallacy, both of which are known by the same name (because of the high degree of similarity).

The first type of fallacy of Composition arises when a person reasons from the characteristics of individual members of a class or group to a conclusion regarding the characteristics of the entire class or group (taken as a whole). Racism is a form of this type of fallacy of composition. More formally, the "reasoning" would look something like this.

Individual F things have characteristics A, B, C, etc.
Therefore, the (whole) class of F things has characteristics A, B, C, etc. 

This line of reasoning is fallacious because the mere fact that individuals have certain characteristics does not, in itself, guarantee that the class (taken as a whole) has those characteristics.

It is important to note that drawing an inference about the characteristics of a class based on the characteristics of its individual members is not always fallacious. In some cases, sufficient justification can be provided to warrant the conclusion. For example, it is true that an individual rich person has more wealth than an individual poor person. In some nations (such as the US) it is true that the class of wealthy people has more wealth as a whole than does the class of poor people. In this case, the evidence used would warrant the inference and the fallacy of Composition would not be committed.

The second type of fallacy of Composition is committed when it is concluded that what is true of the parts of a whole must be true of the whole without there being adequate justification for the claim. More formally, the line of "reasoning" would be as follows:

The parts of the whole X have characteristics A, B, C, etc.
Therefore the whole X must have characteristics A, B, C. 

That this sort of reasoning is fallacious because it cannot be inferred that simply because the parts of a complex whole have (or lack) certain properties that the whole that they are parts of has those properties. This is especially clear in math: The numbers 1 and 3 are both odd. 1 and 3 are parts of 4. Therefore, the number 4 is odd.

It must be noted that reasoning from the properties of the parts to the properties of the whole is not always fallacious. If there is justification for the inference from parts to whole, then the reasoning is not fallacious. For example, if every part of the human body is made of matter, then it would not be an error in reasoning to conclude that the whole human body is made of matter. Similarly, if every part of a structure is made of brick, there is no fallacy committed when one concludes that the whole structure is made of brick.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

CesumPec said:


> Martin,
> 
> I have said the teachers who lost students are incompetent and I have said the DC school system is incompetent. Both can be true without ALL of the teachers being incompetent. In fact, it could be a very few teachers who are incompetent along with incompetent senior management that can produce an incompetent school system. Or it could be governmental interference or neglect that could produce an incompetent school system even if all the school employees were highly competent.
> 
> ...


"A diarrhea of words, constipation of ideas."

Martin


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Paquebot said:


> "A diarrhea of words, constipation of ideas."
> 
> Martin


Ahh, how logical. You could have just admitted you were wrong, but good enough.


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

CesumPec said:


> Martin,
> 
> I have said the teachers who lost students are incompetent and I have said the DC school system is incompetent. Both can be true without ALL of the teachers being incompetent. In fact, it could be a very few teachers who are incompetent along with incompetent senior management that can produce an incompetent school system. Or it could be governmental interference or neglect that could produce an incompetent school system even if all the school employees were highly competent.
> 
> ...


The best compliment my eldest son ever gave me was, "Thanks mom, for teaching me how to reason, and not what to think."

Your response felt like something he and I would be discussing.


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## mom in oklahoma (Nov 25, 2003)

Well,
as my child was left behind on a zoo trip I can see how it can happen. My son who was 5 at the time, went on a school field trip to the zoo, I followed in my van, we got there and was told by the teacher to meet back at the front gate at x time, we were there, maybe a few seconds late, thought it would be no problem cause we were supposed to meet at that time, when we got there and waited and no one showed up, we went out to the buses, the school bus was already gone. I guess she meant that the bus was leaving at x time? I was not worried about getting my son home, I could drive him, I tried to not think about if I wasn't there.:stars:


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

mrs.H said:


> The best compliment my eldest son ever gave me was, "Thanks mom, for teaching me how to reason, and not what to think."
> 
> Your response felt like something he and I would be discussing.


Thanks Mrs. H. I have a love for logic and try to improve my logical thinking every chance I get. As a kid watching Star Trek, I wanted to be Spock. 

Sometime my reasoning fails me, sometimes I'm just stupid wrong, and sometimes I'm a jerk, but I'll keep trying to learn and improve.


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