# Multipurpose Personal / Property Protection AND LGD?



## ksnider (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm curious: does anyone know of particular breeds that can make good LGDs that also double as good personal / property protection? I'm thinking more of mastiff / LGD types that are willing and able to protect against strange humans, rather than dogs that defend on command. I've spent quite a bit of time google-ing, but in general it seems that most LGD breeds (e.g. Great Pyrenees, Anatolian) aren't particularly concerned with humans, while most breeds that work well as personal / property protection (e.g. Cane Corso, Caucasian) aren't dogs that have a good recent history of living with livestock. In your experience, do these two traits work best in separate breeds, or can they be combined?

Disclaimers: I understand that having any dog that will defend against humans is a massive liability and something that should only be undertaken after lots of thought and much preparation. I don't have any intention of getting a personal / property protection dog anytime soon (right now I live in a very urban area and have a spaniel that loves everyone - a very conscious choice!)


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## Eagle1 (Jun 1, 2012)

Just the size of most LGD makes them fairly good at getting folks attention. My GP female growls on command and puffs up instantly, this pretty much does the trick every time. 

Should the dogs not be able to defuse some thing with a bluff you need to be armed. Anyone that does not stop at that point needs to taken very serious. 

Now the big dogs will only challenge on their own, i.e. run up bark and keep some space, unless told be more assertive. Still working on one of the pups to not bite the bumper of loud trucks to make them stop.... gre:


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Agree, size is a huge deterrent. Even dogs who guard by barking, Pyr, will bite if sufficiently provoked. Even my Irish Setter bit if sufficiently provoked. They won&#8217;t tear a person apart, though. Bite, and let go. Will you have livestock that need a guardian? Will you only have a few. A dog will protect his territory and by default the livestock. In this case, a good farm dog will do the trick. If you are worried about protecting your place with some seriousness, get a well trained Dobermann, German Shepherd, or Bouvier des Flanders. A well chosen member of these breeds will obey you and be good family dogs. A dog like a cane corso is a huge liability.


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## ksnider (Apr 3, 2015)

Disclaimer part 2 - I completely understand that a dog, no matter how wonderfully protective, can never function as your entire home- and self-defense. A solidly-trained personal protection dog should be just one piece of a home protection strategy.

Ideally, I'd love to eventually have a 40-80 acre place, somewhat isolated, with sheep, goats, a large garden, rabbits, chickens, etc. Right now I'm considering the fact that I'll likely want dog(s) to function as herding, LGD, and personal / home protection. I've worked with Border Collies and other breeds as herding dogs, and I don't think I'd want anything but the Border Collie for a herding dog. Border Collies might bark, but they don't function as effective protection. So I'm trying to figure out if the LGD / PPD can be handled by just one breed, or if I will just have to get used to the idea of keeping three breeds. 

I do understand that LGDs can function as effective human-intruder deterrents; however, if I'm looking for a personal protection dog, I'm not just looking for a deterrent. I'd want a dog that would follow up and back up the threatening bark if needed. Hence my question: are there truly multi-purpose breeds out there? Or are the functons of predator guard / LGD and human / home guard so inherently different that it really should be two different dogs?

My previous experiences - I work with people who train MondioRing / bitesport dogs; I love their dogs, but Malinois just don't make good LGDs!! I'm familiar with how much work is involved in getting a solidly-trained personal protection dog that will bite and NOT bite on cue. My parents have kept Great Pyrenees as family dogs. They're a great deterrent, very alert, huge, and will bark at intruders, but I'm not sure they would effectively back that up. I've also worked with people that have working LGDs - Maremmas, Pyrs, some working Spanish Mastiff lines (imported from LGDs working real flocks in Spain). They're great dogs, I've known them to kill coyotes and run off wolf packs, but they tend to just avoid and ignore human intruders. I've met several Cane Corsos; a few seemed nice, and I love the *idea* of the breed, but I'd agree many are just a liability, willing to trigger at just about anything. They're a "fad" breed around here, so sadly we're getting some really bad breeders. Caucasian Ovcharka are definitely too intense for what I would want; I've talked to some people that have them, cool dogs but not for the faint of heart (or anyone with less than 24/7/365 dedication to the dog - they CANNOT be allowed ANY unsupervised contact with anyone outside the family). Moreover, even if I was willing to get a dog with that high of an aggression level, they largely don't seem to be working as LGDs anymore.

Does a little more context help?


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

If you need a serious LGD for your livestock, I don't have much experience there. Just research, like yourself. The consensus I got from the folks here (my situation is similar to yours), is that I may need to kind of construct my own pair or pack to cover my needs. Anyway, check out Boerboels and Central Asian Shepherds. I enjoyed that research quite a bit, very cool history to those dogs. 

Otherwise, we have a user here, Motdaugrnds, and it sounds like her Karakachan (definitely a traditional LGD) would deal with human threats if need be. She would probably be happy to give you details on her dog. One interesting thing about her situation, although this is kind of my own interpretation, is that her lab has been affected by the Karakachan's instincts and I get the impression that the lab would defend her livestock in support of her Karakachan. So maybe it would work similarly for a personal protection dog? A Doberman in your pack would be more inclined to guard you, but if an LGD member of his pack were confronting some coyotes it might race out to support that LGD. May even be that your dobey (or whatever, German Shepherd?) would influence your LGD to be alert to threatening humans.

My experience is more with traditional protection breeds, and I personally think most of them would intervene without command if need be. Plus, German Shepherds were originally general farm dogs, so maybe that would be an option for you. I read a post from someone here who used to breed them for farm work, and he said his would round up and guard the livestock, sleep in the house, and confront any threat.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

Yes, you have very specific desires for a dog and there is not a breed that will excel in all three. You seem to be well versed in herding, personal protection and livestock guarding and able to conclude that there are very specific drives and attributes to accomplish each with any degree of success. I have had experience with all three and I recommend GSD, Border Collie, and Akbash.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

A guardian, whether a donkey or dog, is going to have a serious problem with your border collie herding the flock. You can put much less time into training your sheep than you would a herding dog. You can train them to come to you by associating a sound, such as a whistle, with you bringing water or hay. You can acclimate them to moving through a chute by having them move through a 4&#8217; wide gate to their food and water, then adding a little something until they are waking through a 3&#8217; long chute&#8230; and so on. If they are fed oats, they will follow a bucket that you shake.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

You have some very specific requirements for your dog(s). One you want to "guard" your livestock, another you want to "herd" your livestock and another you want to protect humans. These 3 "types" of dogs CAN conflict. This, of course, means you will need to do a lot of personal training with all 3 of them "together". 

Maura is definately correct in her comments about training your livestock to "come" to you. This would eliminate the need of a herding dog. This can be done with loud noises as well as vocalizations.

The "prey" drive is often prominent in a general farm dog, especially one that can get aggressive should the need arise. Thus, such a dog would need to be taught "when" to use that prey drive and when not to use it. Yes, this can be done! See the picture below of my German Shepherd, a pure blood with a heavy prey drive that did not hesitate to protect me and my place from 2-legged as well as 4-legged predators. In this picture you see that dog protecting two young goats by standing between them and some strangers who had come on my place to discuss the excavation of a pond. (The "mix" breed that taught this shepherd is the white one who would let a person on the place while watching closely and following that person around. One time the person had exited and was simply reaching in to help me close the gate when this white dog lunged to tear his arm off. Another incident was when I got too close to a mother guinea and her keets. That bird flew toward my face and this white dog, Apache, caught it in mid air.) So what I'm saying is: If you know the propensities of the dog(s) you choose, you can work with those traits. This would not do away with the traits altogether. Both my shepherds would chase, catch, kill and eat rabbits, squirrels, ***** and anything else that they saw as OK TO CHASE. 

At the present time I have a labradore (heavy prey drive) and a Karakachan (LGD) living very well together. The lab does not chase the goats or fowl but will chase rabbits and squirrels. The LGD will not chase even a ball, but will NOW go after a rabbit and/or squirrel, though the only "live" animal I've seen her catch and eat was a baby keet that had gotten lost from its mother. So dogs can learn from each other. I might add here that the Bulgarian Karakachans were not only used to guard stock in large areas, they were also taken to war with the troops. From what I've seen here, I have no doubt some of Valentina's protective traits are influencing my lab, Cujo. And, as Wiscto indicated above, Cujo has, indeed, followed Valentina when she has charged after a predator, i.e. a fox that time. And they do back each other up at the parameter, although Valentina is more laid back at doing so than Cujo is. (Valentina is more interested in keeping an eye on the goats than following after Cujo when he is chasing a squirrel. ROFL)

Were I in your shoes moving onto the large amount of acreage you're talking about, I would certainly get at least one (maybe two) LGDs and one (maybe two) general guard dogs and socialize them all well with each other. My preference for a general farm dog is a short-haired German Shepherd. (My lab has had a tendancy to be calm and friendly...UNTIL...he learned to be more of a "guard" from my Karakachan.)

Hope this helps. I'm sure others have had great experiences with different breeds; so you certainly have a wide range of choices.


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## CedarGait (Apr 22, 2014)

Also just a side note.... My male aussie serves as two of the three you want. He will herd a little, most of our goats come when called and will bite anyone that tries to lay a hand on me( even the hubby). Doesn't bark much(when he does something going on) but will watch anyone who comes on the farm. Will even go after another dog if he thinks dog is going after me.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

One short word to answer your question...no. LGD breeds have been bred over centuries to be independent thinkers. They do the thinking and are terrible at following commands. Not something you want in a PP dog, especially some of the harder mastiff breeds. The mastiff breeds are wide and varied in temperament. Some much more of a liability than others. They are highly intelligent, able to assess a situation and take control on their own, stubborn, but usually will follow their owners command. Mastiffs can never be given the illusion that they are in charge. Like I said, some are harder than others. Good fencing is a must with a mastiff because of the liability issues. We have mastiffs and LGDs, both have their place and both have a very different purpose. Both also require a very different way of training and training is absolutely essential to having a mastiff that is not a danger to others. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. Blessings, Kat


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

ksnider said:


> Disclaimer part 2 - I completely understand that a dog, no matter how wonderfully protective, can never function as your entire home- and self-defense. A solidly-trained personal protection dog should be just one piece of a home protection strategy.
> 
> Ideally, I'd love to eventually have a 40-80 acre place, somewhat isolated, with sheep, goats, a large garden, rabbits, chickens, etc. Right now I'm considering the fact that I'll likely want dog(s) to function as herding, LGD, and personal / home protection. I've worked with Border Collies and other breeds as herding dogs, and I don't think I'd want anything but the Border Collie for a herding dog. Border Collies might bark, but they don't function as effective protection. So I'm trying to figure out if the LGD / PPD can be handled by just one breed, or if I will just have to get used to the idea of keeping three breeds.
> 
> ...


The mastiff breeds that you have been looking at are definitely off the list of safe dogs. Like you said the Cane Corso became a fad dog and there are too many unreputable breeders that are selling dogs with bad temperament lines. Let the Russian military keep the Ovcharka, they are a weapon pure and simple and one that doesn't have a safety at that. Filas are harder and more independent thinking. Tibetans have become a fad dog and some Tibetan owner I have talked to online said that you have to be very careful to get a well bred dog nowadays if you can even find one that isn't grossly overpriced. Neopolitan mastiffs are naturally distrustful of people other than their family. They simply do not tolerate outside people well at all. I don't know much about DDBs or south African mastiffs(someone on here has a pair). We have had both English and bullmastiffs. I love both, but I truly love my English mastiff. You do have to be careful of breeders as there are some breeders that simply are trying to breed for the biggest size. I probably will never be without an English mastiff. Hope that helps a bit more. Blessings, Kat


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## Janis R (Jun 27, 2013)

I have a GP (10 years old) and a Newfie (7 years old) , they were raised as PP guard dogs, the GP also works as a service dog for hubby. We moved to a farm 2.5 years ago, it took a little to train the dogs to the chickens, ducks, turkeys, guineas, pigs and goats but the now guard all of their "family". They keep animals at bay such as coyotes and other dogs, they won't let anyone or anything in the yard without really going off, if it is a person they bar their way and bark like all get out. 
I guess we have exceptional dogs, we will get another GP in the future, not sure about a Newfie.


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