# Legal Question about puppy deposit



## TxHorseMom

In early April, I put down a deposit of $400 for a male english mastiff puppy. He was due to be born April 25th. I waited and waited. No puppy. I would email at about once a week. I heard that, "she's almost ready, maybe tonight." or "No puppy yet, but soon" the last one I got was. "I took her to the vet today, he said the puppies are in position, so soon." On May 24th I decided there's something fishy going on. I called twice, and left messages stating to please call me, that I decided I wanted my deposit back. I got no return call. Then I wrote an email stating that due to the fact that there is STILL no puppy, I wanted my deposit back. She sent me back an email that she does NOT give refunds, and that I would have to wait for her next litter with a different sire and dam due in July.

Now, in my opinion, this is a breech of contract. I was to get a puppy from a certain sire and dam, not one of her choosing. It's not like I just changed my mind, THERE IS NO PUPPY!!! I understand that breeding is not an exact science, that things happen, but she never did call me or inform me that something happened (I still don't know what happened) My question is, is this standard procedure with a breeder? I've never had this happen. I am seriously considering suing her for breech of contract.

In the mean time, a couple of days ago, I did get an English Mastiff. He is 20 mths old, a "sort of" rescue. (off of craigslist, not a "real" rescue) But this was after I gave her plenty of time to have her puppy. The one really doesn't have anything to do with the other. She doesn't know I got another dog. Have I just lost my $400?


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## therunbunch

I would assume you have documentation so I would think you have a case. And I would NOT walk away from my refund if I were you.


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## wendle

I agree it is a breech of contract, you should be entitled to your deposit back. That sure is a large deposit btw.


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## TxHorseMom

Yes, I have a contract. I have misplaced it. I will be tearing the house apart tomorrow to find it though. And yes, I am pretty sure that it says no refunds. But again, it's not that I changed my mind, there is no puppy. I also printed out the page on her website that said the the names of the sire and dam and that the puppies were due April 25th.


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## wolffeathers

Was there a written contract?

Most of the time breeders have a written contract on what happens in cases like this. Usually a refund or a puppy of your choosing, some state a puppy of equal value, but either way it should have been addressed in the contract.

((Posted the same time you did. Check the contract and see what it says))


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## TxHorseMom

wendle said:


> I agree it is a breech of contract, you should be entitled to your deposit back. That sure is a large deposit btw.


I usually rescue dogs, I am pretty innocent about buying from a breeder. I thought I researched her pretty well though. Guess not good enough. The full cost of the puppy was/is $1000


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## Wolf Flower

Save all the emails you exchanged and keep a log of the phone calls and what she said. This will help you in small claims court.


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## LoneStrChic23

Wow! I'd be furious!

Definately find that contract & read everything to see where you stand. I don't take deposits until puppies are born....I get a waiting list & contact people when I have puppies....everything is documented. 

Refund is given if *I* back out (never have) the puppy dies or something of that nature. Only time I don't offer a refund is when a buyer backs out. Last litter I had a woman in Pensylvania put a deposit on a show prospect.....at 7 weeks I noticed the puppy's bite had gone off & I was not liking her topline. Contacted the buyer, explained the problem, offered her a refund, option of a different puppy or a reduced pet price on the pup she chose. She took the puppy as a pet. 

I'm sorry your having to deal with this.... I just don't understand why people have to be so crooked!

If there was a problem she easily could have kept you updated & worked out a solution/compromise.

I agree you need to save & print out all emails & find that contract.


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## lamoncha lover

I think she breached the contract by not producing a puppy from the litter you were buying from. She owes you your deposit unless it specifically states in her contract these circumstances.


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## mekasmom

I would file with the BBB and with the atty general in your state. If your deposit wasn't returned it is fraud. And filing reports with both those places are free.

And, my personal opinion is that I won't give any money until I see the puppy. Money and puppy trade hands at the same time. I just don't believe in taking or giving deposits. Too many things can go wrong. These are living animals not inanimate goods that can be produced on a schedule. Nobody can forecast if a litter will turn out with 5males, 6females or whatever. And taking multiple deposits on a litter that hasn't even been conceived is just a poor idea. I won't do it in either buying or selling.


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## bluemoonluck

It depends....some contracts just state you are making a deposit for a puppy - they don't state male/female, color, sire/dam, etc.

If your contract states that you have placed a non-refundable deposit for a male puppy - with nothing specifically stating sire/dam, timeline, etc - then you're out of luck 

Now if you contract states that you are placing a non-refundable deposit on a male pup sired by XYZ with the dam ABC with estimated DOB of May 2011, then you've got something to go with legally for breach of contract.

Read the contract over and see what you really agreed to. Like it or not, if all you were promised was a male puppy with no other stipulations, then you're not entitled to get your deposit back :shrug:

ETA: I take deposits to hold pups when they are between 3 and 6 weeks of age or so - after they have been temperament tested and I have decided which families on my waiting list they would be a good fit for. My deposits are also non-refundable, however if a freak accident should occur and the pup on hold were to die, I would have no problem refunding the deposit. If the potential puppy buyer changes their mind, I keep the deposit...if its something on my end, they get it back. I'm not unreasonable......


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## TedH71

I would never buy from a breeder that doesn't have an refundable quote written into the contract. Naturally it's only if the mother dog hasn't given birth or not had a pup of a specific color/sex. Just my opinion. I would think this is a breach of contract since you signed the paper saying you wanted a pup from a SPECIFIC breeding and got nothing but the run around. Too many ways for a breeder to rip people off.


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## chickenista

Hmm... she has a great little scam going on.
Non-refundable deposits that she gets to keep to the tune of $400 a pop.
She has to produce nothing in return for that $400.
I wonder how many 'deposits' she collects in a year......


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## bluemoonluck

TedH71 said:


> I would think this is a breach of contract since you signed the paper saying you wanted a pup from a SPECIFIC breeding and got nothing but the run around. Too many ways for a breeder to rip people off.


The OP has not yet found the contract, so its not clear if her contract DID list a specific sire/dam or not :shrug:


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## Wolf Flower

chickenista said:


> Hmm... she has a great little scam going on.
> Non-refundable deposits that she gets to keep to the tune of $400 a pop.
> She has to produce nothing in return for that $400.
> I wonder how many 'deposits' she collects in a year......


Yeah, if she takes a deposit on unborn pups and then, magically, the ***** is past her due date by three weeks and the puppies never come... "sorry, no puppies, but the deposit is non-refundable." What a racket. I'd still like to see her website.


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## Belfrybat

So, did you find the contract and read the "fine print"? I too think the breeder is being unethical in not returning your deposit, but am curious as to how the contract is worded.


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## FoxyWench

as others have stated, its 100% going to rely on what exactly your contract says.

as the buyer its up to you to be sure you knwo what your signing.

im like bluemoonluck, i NEVER accept deposits on unborn puppies, and my deposit while none refundable if a change is made on the buyers side, is always returned if something happens on my end...(ie depositid puppy (heaven forbid) dies ect...)

but yeah if all your contract says is Male puppy, then your out of luck, if however it states male puppy form specific dam and sire with a due date of *insert date here* you do have legal standing for contract breech.

i would NEVER place a deposit on an unborn puppy, just tooo many variables, and this person doesnt sound like a good honest person ontop of it all...
find that contract as that will dictate if you have a leg to stand on.


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## tailwagging

was there no puppies born or was there puppies but no males were born? or not healthy? or no puppies ready yet?


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## Wolf Flower

OP PM'd me the website. Here is the sales contract as it is written on the website, I omitted the seller information.


SALES CONTRACT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Puppy / Dog purchase Include the following:

1) Full show/pedigree folder: this includes a 8 generation pedigree on both parents, pictures of the sir and dam and litter , DNA testing of parents and AKC PAPERS FOR EACH PUPPY, AND ANY TITLE AWARDS OF PARENTS OR GRANDPARENTS. ALSO VET REPORT AND ALL SHOT RECORDS AND WORMINGS FROM BIRTH TO TIME OF DEPARTURE TO YOUR HOME. 

2) All shot records, showing proof of vaccinations, worming, rabies and any other pertinent medical records for your puppy.

3) Puppies are given NEL O PAR SHOT, (Parvo shot for the life of the puppy)

4) Full Veterinary report and examination document showing your puppy to be in good health at the time of shipping, Along with a copy of the TEXAS VET HEALTH CERTIFICATE.

5) Each puppy is micro chipped by Homeagain, Akc.

6) Life time guarantee on your puppy, as provided in our Sales Contract below:

7) We ship your puppy at 8 weeks old, all deposits are final, and no puppy is sold without signatures by both Seller and Buyer. Replacement puppies are provided as stated in our contract below:

8) We stand behind our breeding contract, and procedures. We provide quality dogs, our of champion and show bloodlines. If anything should go wrong for the life of the dog, we offer replacement dogs as stated in our contract.



CONTRACT TERMS AND GUARANTEES

All puppies are under a lifetime guarantee on: 

Hip Dysplasia or any crippling defects that would be painful for the dogâs health and well being in general life. Reproductive organs are not under lifetime contract. If anything serious does come into being then we have 180 days to do a replacement on your dog after the sellers veterinarian exam and evaluation of the problem. This is after your puppy has been shipped to you. Now if a problem arises before the shipping and the puppy has a problem or defect found, the puppy will be replaced with another puppy of said quality and soundness by breeder within no more than 180 days or the next litter that will be produced. There will be no refunds at that time, just puppy replacement. 

All records of vet care and show folder will be provided for each puppy to the buyer. Also pictures of birth and at 6 weeks old. Then the buyer will make his selection out of the show potentials or pets and companions by color and sex only, not by the parents of the litter. All puppies will be of our champions or champion stock of well known quality. 

Puppies sold pursuant to this contract are warranted to be in good health of said dog and examined by a licensed veterinarian within 3 days of shipping. You must keep up your veterinarian care of your puppy after it arrives. Buyer also agrees that if the puppy is male then the seller has the right to breed AKC standard female to this male at no cost to the seller of 1 stud service and 1live litter to said female. This is to keep bloodline. All puppies must be sold to loving homes and show pups to people who will show. At no time is a puppy to be sold to a puppy mill or pet dealers or fighting agents. These are our babies and we want them in the best of homes. Seller gives a lifetime guarantee of the hips and crippling. Seller does not guarantee an ofa number for the dog. Also on show puppy potentials, we do not guarantee you will champion out your puppy or get a title on said puppy sold. It will be a top quality of top bloodlines. 

Buyer agrees if an action is instituted to enforce any terms or conditions of this legal and binding contract, said action will be brought in the county and state of the seller and the buyer shall pay all cost and expenses incurred in connection therewith, including but not limited to reasonable attorney fees. Buyer takes all responsibility of the puppy when it reaches its final destination with its new owner. 

Buyer also agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the seller, its agents, servantâs, succors and assigns from and against all losses, damage, injuries, claims and or expenses including legal expenses of whatsoever nature arising out of the acts of dog subject of this contract and shall defend any suit seeking damages 

We sell only under binding and signed contracts with no money refunds. We do offer puppy replacements. If under severe conditions of war or divorce, that you canât keep your beloved dog that you bought from us, we will buy back your dog in good vet examined condition at Â½ price paid. But just because you decide to move into an apartment that has rules and guidelines of the size of pet or pet deposit, we donât cover this at all. Our Buy back policy is subject to strict conditions of a severe nature.


*** All deposits are final. As we are holding that special puppy for YOU, WE cannot refund your deposit. All deposits shall be applied to a puppy or adult purchase. Deposits paid are final. We understand there may be situations where you the buyer, cannot take a puppy at a certain time, and we are happy to hold your deposit, and apply it towards one of our dogs, when you are ready. Please see our Sales Contract.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ORDER FORM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buyer Information 

Name :_______________________________

Address :_______________________________

City :_______________________________

Zip :_______________________________

Telephone :_______________________________

Cell :_______________________________

Airport :_______________________________

Breed of Dog :____Bullmasiff_________Mastiff________

Desired Sex :____Male_____________Female__________

Desired Color :_______________________________

Desired Arrival Date: ___________________________

Arrival Airport: ________________________________

Date :________________________________________

Signature of Buyer :__________________________________



Signature of Seller:__________________________________

Date: ____________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## bluemoonluck

Based upon that contract, I'd say the OP had no rights to choose the sire/dam. If she doesn't like the pup that is offered to her, she can choose to wait until one is offered that she does like.

But it states "Desired" sex and "Desired" arrival date.... which means to me that the breeder is under no legal obligation to offer you a pup that matches your "desired" details :shrug:


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## bluemoonluck

FoxyWench said:


> i would NEVER place a deposit on an unborn puppy, just tooo many variables,


Believe it or not, it is actually *recommended *by many Parent Clubs and "ethical breeding guidelines" that you have not only a certain sized waiting list for pups before you breed a litter, but that when you are planning a litter you obtain deposits from puppy buyers before you go thru with the breeding.

I have a massive waiting list, but when pups hit the ground a lot of people on that list back out. If before you breed, you require a deposit from those people, they're much less likely to back out and you're going to know with a greater degree of certainty that all your pups will be able to be placed.

That said, I don't personally do this!! I have my waiting list and I ask for deposits when I offer someone a pup (after the pups are old enough to temperament test to ensure that they will "fit" with that family) to hold the pup until he/she is 8 weeks of age. But for breeds that are historically hard to place or that have large litters, many of those breeders do get deposits before they breed the *****. Its not uncommon at all and it doesn't _necessarily _mean the breeder is unethical either.


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## oregon woodsmok

No refund. All the OP can do is to wait until there is a puppy available and take that one. Or walk away from the deposit.

I've never placed a deposit on an upborn puppy, but the rest of the show people know me, so I could reserve a pup and they would know I'd show up for it. It's very common to require a non-refundable deposit. Too many people will ask that a pup be held for them when they have no intention of showing up for it. 

In the meantime, other potential buyers are getting turned away because the pup is "sold". Make people put their money where their mouth is and they don't normally reserve a pup if they don't actually want one.

Of course, it happens that someone will place a deposit and then buy another pup from a different source and want their money back. That's why contracts are written as non-refundable.


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## wolffeathers

> Then the buyer will make his selection out of the show potentials or pets and companions by color and sex only, not by the parents of the litter.


I think that's where they have you. Unless your copy of the contract states differently.

Personally if I have that much money already invested, I would go ahead and select from the next litter. If you decide you do not want it, maybe sell it and recover some of the money?


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## Haven

I don't even accept deposits until they are 2 weeks old since things can go wrong with newborns and I don't want to be sitting on someone's cash that needs returned if the puppy dies. They can pick out their puppy at 7 weeks after they have time to watch vids of their personalities for a few weeks. I just do 50.00 deposits, but all breeds are different and everyone has their own way.


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## tailwagging

it was easy to find the site. I would not buy from them.
and it should be neopar shot.


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## lasergrl

yeah it was the first website to pop up googling the breed and state. I agree that deposite is too high. I would want a specific breeding also. I always heard contracts didnt mean much and even if you sign it and it is specific you can often get your money back. 
I am not a fan of pics of dogs in the actual act of mating put on puppies available pages either :/


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## Wolf Flower

lasergrl said:


> I am not a fan of pics of dogs in the actual act of mating put on puppies available pages either :/


Ewww, I must have missed that (thankfully). I don't like that either--it reminds me of questionable pit bull breeders.


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## Oregon Julie

lasergrl said:


> I am not a fan of pics of dogs in the actual act of mating put on puppies available pages either :/


When I first read this I thought to myself "okay, it is a breed that often has to be AI bred due to libido and size issues, perhaps they are just trying to prove (tacky as it is) that their dogs are natural". Then I saw their other two breeds and similar photos and since the one breed is a small one who should have NO problems doing the deed on their own I decided they were just tacky people.

IMO you should consider the $400 a loss, write it off as a lesson learned. The website makes me shudder on many levels. It has just enough fluff to fake the average nice, but unaware pet buyer and wouldn't fool a true show person for one moment. Their terminology is off, the photos are not brilliant, the dogs that they claim to be top quality are far from it. Not sure what your CL dog is like, but not getting one of these peoples dogs is no great loss if you ask me.

And about waiting lists prior to breeding bitches, I HATE them! If you are breeding Goldens you have 4 types of pups. All will be yellow to some degree or another. The other options are show dog, pet dog, show *****, pet *****, PERIOD. Yes, some will be more active then others, some more inclined to be quiet and appropriate with children or older people, but basically those are your choices. 

In my breed, Parson Russell Terriers, we have the 4 types that I mentioned above and then you toss into the mix three coat types and actually within the range of broken coat you can have anything from almost smooth to rather hairy and close to rough. Then you can have a range of colors (unless it is a tri to tri breeding in which case you absolutely know all will be tri). Then you have markings. If I had a dime for every person who absolutely had to have a half face, sock eye, badger head, lots of body color, no body color, tail spot pup or it wasn't going to work I would be a very wealthy woman.

Then you have the great variety of dispositions. Some of my dogs are very active and are fantastic in sports homes-flyball, agility, obedience, etc. Others are wonderful as more quiet companion dogs and adore small children. How on earth is anyone supposed to make a list of people for their next litter with all of that to be considered? It isn't possible and I would much rather wait until pups are 8-10 weeks and then figure out if that one is going to be the one to fit in a certain kind of a home better then the other.


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## Our Little Farm

Normally that clause is put in there to protect the seller should the buyer put a hold on the puppy and at the last moment decide not to get one, and want their deposit back. This seller seems to have found that it works very well to her advantage to 'play the game' and not even produce a puppy.


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## thaiblue12

They cannot have the money and the puppy, that is not legal and she has to either give you back the money or produce a puppy, she has done neither.

I would send her a registered letter telling her that she has not produced the promised puppy and she has 30 days to refund the money. If she fails to do so you will take her to small claims court. 

I would not let her get away with this. It seems like she knew ( eventually) the ***** did not take and was stringing you along because she had probably spent your money. 

Keap all the emails, records of phone calls and any other evidence.


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## TxHorseMom

Yep, very innocent dog purchaser. What kills me is that when I mentioned to her that I lost my Boxer 6 weeks previously, after spending $1000's of $$$ at A&M for tests etc, to a VERY RARE disease she said I should contact the boxers breeder for selling me an inferior dog and that she should refund my $$ for him. When IMO it WAS NOT the boxer breeders fault. He caught a very rare fungal infection that they (Tx A&M) had never seen, only read about. He was 18mths old and had never been sick previously. She definately saw "sucker" stamped on my forehead. lol

My hubby is pretty mad about this. We will probably try to sue anyway in small claims court. I'd rather loose an additional $50 trying than just letting her get away with it. Thanks for showing me the contract. I STILL can't find it!! ARRRRGH!

I want everyone to understand that I did not just change my mind. I only got the other dog when it was obvious I wasnt going to get a dog from this woman. If she would have produced a puppy, or even let me know there was a problem, we would have worked something out. But I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason. And I'm VERY pleased with my new dog.


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## Wolf Flower

thaiblue12 said:


> I would not let her get away with this. It seems like she knew ( eventually) the ***** did not take and was stringing you along because she had probably spent your money.


Yes, all the talk of x-rays and vet visits for an imaginary litter is what galls me. All she had to do was say "The mating didn't take, but I will apply your deposit toward the next litter." But no, she had to make up stories about a litter that didn't exist, to string you along. I wonder how many people she has done this to? If she refuses to refund the deposit, take her to court. Even if you lose, it will be on record that a buyer had to take this breeder to court, and that's not good for business. You should call the Better Business Bureau as well.


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## TxHorseMom

Im going to send her a certified letter informing her to refund deposit or I will take her to court, turn her in to the bbb, and the state attorney generals office. Is there anywhere else I can complain? What about the akc? I'll take all the ammunition I can get. Yeah, it ticks me off because she lied to me and just strung me along. I'm not an unreasonable person.


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## tailwagging

did she say there where NO pups or just no MALES?


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## thaiblue12

Tailwagging in the original post is says the pups were to be born on the 24th of April and by the 24th of May there was still no puppies. Despite her saying anyday now, vet says in position etc blah blah- still no puppies. 

If it had been a litter of all females wouldn't a good breeder send her an email saying- we had all girls, would you like a female or do you want to wait till July and see if any males are born out of that litter? 

Seems like puppies were suppose to be born in April they were not, or maybe there were only say 3 born alive, she had 6 buyers and too bad for the others who left a deposit, she spent the money and will not admit or refund it hoping that they will take July puppies or go away leaving her with money and puppies to resell. No matter what happened she is less then up front and something is not right here.


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## wolffeathers

tailwagging said:


> did she say there where NO pups or just no MALES?


I think that's where a lot of the anger is coming from, the lack of communication.

The pups were due in April 24.

But then May 24 the pups "were in position".

Then all of a sudden the buyer has to wait until the July litter from a different mating.

Things happen and people can be understanding, but when you don't inform them of what is going on, they are going to be much less patient. While I don't think the person is doing anything blatently illegal, it does seem very deceptive and maybe a bit unreasonable. I mean I can understand a nonrefundable deposit on a puppy that exists or one you've held, but a nonrefundable deposit on a puppy that doesn't exist? Especially a $400. It's not as though the buyer waited until the puppies were 8 weeks old and then backed out. I doubt that $400 is worth it to the breeder to go to court.


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## longshadowfarms

wolffeathers said:


> I think that's where a lot of the anger is coming from, the lack of communication.


Rather than lack of communication, it seems more like outright lies that are the problem. Seems that there was plenty of communication, just none of it the plain and simple truth. If she'll lie about something this simple (and really, it should have been pretty simple), it makes you wonder about all the rest of what you've been told.


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## tailwagging

This is what a judge would ask.
were there pups born?
if she put a depots on a male and only females were born then there wasn't a male pup available or if the litter died, no male pups available. the breeder wouldn't be lieing.
by May the OP came to the assumption that there weren't any pups born.


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## tailwagging

ok it sounds like the breeder doesn't know when the ***** "took"
if the first due date (56th day from breeding) was April 25th the ***** could hold the litter until the 63 day (may 2nd). but if she didn't see the breeding then it she could have breed any day in those 3 weeks of heat. the breeder could have been counting from the day she saw her in heat and yet the ***** might have "taken" closer to the end of the heat. so that could put more waiting. maybe even weeks.

don't get me wrong I am not standing up for this breeder. just looking at all sides


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## mekasmom

I think the unpredictability and just the inability to exactly predict nature be it conception, litter number, or genders just make deposits a bad idea-- just unwise. But I agree with tailwagging the breeder could have been trying to be honest, and it just didn't work out for some reason. But that doesn't mean she should keep the deposit with no puppy delivered until months later. That is fraud.


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## bluemoonluck

mekasmom said:


> I think the unpredictability and just the inability to exactly predict nature be it conception, litter number, or genders just make deposits a bad idea-- just unwise. But I agree with tailwagging the breeder could have been trying to be honest, and it just didn't work out for some reason. But that doesn't mean she should keep the deposit with no puppy delivered until months later. That is fraud.


I disagree - the contract does not say anything about a time limit. If the contract said "If no pups are produced by us within 12 months of the date of the deposit, the deposit will be refunded upon request" that would be different.

But the contract just says that deposits are non-refundable :shrug: There is no time limit stated for the breeder to produce a puppy at all!

Again I don't do deposits before breedings/for non-existent pups, but if a breeder has this as their policy - and gives you a clearly written contract, ensuring that you fully understand the terms/conditions of this deposit - and you agree to it, sign it, and send in the deposit in... I don't get how this is fraud?

I know some good breeders who take a deposit before you even make it onto their waiting list. And its not unusual to wait for a year or longer before your # comes up. They try to give people an honest and accurate picture of what they are agreeing to, but if several of their breedings in a row don't take, they could have 0 pups to sell for a few years or more. 

Heck, I don't take deposits but I tell people when they go on my list that I'm planning a breeding for the year but I have no way of knowing if the breeding will take, and if it does IDK how many pups will be produced. I encourage them to be patient and assure them that I will keep them updated as I have info to share. 

Being up-front and honest is the key!


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## FoxyWench

sorry op but im 100% in agreeance with blue moon luck on this one...

not that i think its RIGHT...
but given the contract copy/pasted here...the breeder is well withn their rights to keep your deposit based on what you signed (asuming the contract you signed is the same one...)

and i also agree, that many good breeders accept deposits before alitter is born as blue moon pointed out, just that i PERSONALLY wouldnt place (or accept) a deposit on an unborn pup...anything could happen in those first few weeks,

say a buyer puts a deposit on a red female and only black females are born..then what? what about if the only red female turns out to have a temperment that wouldnt suit the buyer ect...so i personally do exactly as blue moon says she does, waitinglist, then deposits when the pups are old enough to get a better idea of whos who and whats what.


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## laughaha

From the site:

"Now if a problem arises before the shipping and the puppy has a problem or defect found, the puppy will be replaced with another puppy of said quality and soundness by breeder within no more than 180 days or the next litter that will be produced. There will be no refunds at that time, just puppy replacement."  Of course even this is assuming that she had a litter of puppies (and obviously not for lack of trying by the stud ound


"Buyer also agrees that if the puppy is male then the seller has the right to breed AKC standard female to this male at no cost to the seller of 1 stud service and 1live litter to said female. This is to keep bloodline." :hysterical: Wow.........


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## bluemoonluck

laughaha said:


> "Buyer also agrees that if the puppy is male then the seller has the right to breed AKC standard female to this male at no cost to the seller of 1 stud service and 1live litter to said female. This is to keep bloodline." :hysterical: Wow.........


I don't see a problem with this... when I sell a male on full registration (as a show-potential pup) I have it in my contract that I am entitled to breed any ***** fully owned or co-owned by me to that male at any time thruout his life and not pay a stud fee. I pay the collection/shipping fees, but not a stud fee. This is, FWIW, very common in my breed. But then my breed is still fairly rare, so maybe its less common in other breeds :shrug:

I also sell all pets on limited AKC registration, and everything that goes out of here with full registration is co-owned by me until either the dog finishes his/her AKC championship or he/she is fixed. This keeps my dogs out of the hands of puppy millers and byb's......


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## Narshalla

FoxyWench said:


> sorry op but I'm 100% in agreeance with blue moon luck on this one...
> 
> not that i think its RIGHT...
> but given the contract copy/pasted here...the breeder is well within their rights to keep your deposit based on what you signed (assuming the contract you signed is the same one...)(snip)


I have to agree.

I'll go further ans say that as the contract is written, you won't be able to get your money until April of next year, and even then, I think It would be a craps shoot.


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## laughaha

bluemoonluck said:


> I don't see a problem with this... when I sell a male on full registration (as a show-potential pup) I have it in my contract that I am entitled to breed any ***** fully owned or co-owned by me to that male at any time thruout his life and not pay a stud fee. I pay the collection/shipping fees, but not a stud fee. This is, FWIW, very common in my breed. But then my breed is still fairly rare, so maybe its less common in other breeds :shrug:
> 
> I also sell all pets on limited AKC registration, and everything that goes out of here with full registration is co-owned by me until either the dog finishes his/her AKC championship or he/she is fixed. This keeps my dogs out of the hands of puppy millers and byb's......


I (personally) have a problem with anyone saying what will or will not happen with one of my dogs, ESPECIALLY if it's obviously not a dog who should be bred. What happens if OP had gotten the male, had it neutered and the breeder wanted to use it as a stud? Would OP have been in breach of contract for neutering the dog? The contract doesn't cover neutering, just states that the breeder is retaining a legal right to breed a ***** to the new owners dog. 

Co-owning a dog with someone else is completely different (to me) than buying/owning a dog outright- You know that someone else is going to have a say in the life of the dog.

I also have no problem with selling a pet quality dog with a limited registration- it's obvious that you aren't trying to scam someone (saying it's show quality, etc) and if someone buys the puppy knowing it won't be breedable/showable and are okay with that, then I have no problem with it.


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## bluemoonluck

laughaha said:


> I (personally) have a problem with anyone saying what will or will not happen with one of my dogs, ESPECIALLY if it's obviously not a dog who should be bred. What happens if OP had gotten the male, had it neutered and the breeder wanted to use it as a stud? Would OP have been in breach of contract for neutering the dog? The contract doesn't cover neutering, just states that the breeder is retaining a legal right to breed a ***** to the new owners dog.
> 
> Co-owning a dog with someone else is completely different (to me) than buying/owning a dog outright- You know that someone else is going to have a say in the life of the dog.
> 
> I also have no problem with selling a pet quality dog with a limited registration- it's obvious that you aren't trying to scam someone (saying it's show quality, etc) and if someone buys the puppy knowing it won't be breedable/showable and are okay with that, then I have no problem with it.


If the dog isn't of "breedable" quality, I just never exercise my right to breed to him. Heck, I don't prohibit anyone from neutering the dog, either - full reg and co-owned or not. But if they keep him intact, and he grows out nicely, then heck yeah I want to have the legal right to use him without having to pay for it!

And once the dog finishes their AKC Ch or is spayed/neutered I sign off on the co-ownership. I do specify that I reserve the right to refuse to sign any AKC litter registration application if the dog is bred while I co-own it - so basically again making sure that dogs I sell intact don't get bred irresponsibily. I explain to co-owners that if they breed the dog without my knowledge and my express approval while I am still on as co-owner, I will not sign the registration application - which means the pups cannot be AKC registered. So far, fingers crossed, my puppy owners have abided by this.

I do disagree with the contracts that require a dog to be bred before the breeder will sign off on co-ownership :nono: If the dog grows out :gaptooth: you shouldn't breed him, no matter what your contract says.


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## Old Mission

There are so many things wrong with this situation and I see it way to often. IMO there was probably never a litter to begin with, many people are doing this as a scam! Some real so called 'breeders' do this as a side scam to make more money too. I hate deposits from both perspectives, I as a breeder dont want to be committed to sell to a home until I have time to get to know them and I dont know till last minute what will be show/pet, and I dont want a buyer to feel like they are obligated to buy a dog if they changed their mind for whatever reason and I dont want to break a familys heart when they are emotionally attached to the idea of getting a pup and I dont have something that fits their needs. 
Never put a deposit down until you have met the breeder, seen where their dogs and the pups will be raised and how they are cared for, and see at least 1 of the prospective pups parents in person!
And never put down a deposit till after the litter is born. Unless your dealing with a super long waiting list from a top show breeder or something.
Deposits should be no more then 200-300 for a 1000 dog, otherwise IMO its not a deposit its a 'down payment'. 
Always make sure you have a well understood contract for the deposit before exchanging money, and never be pressured to hurry and send cash before the pups sell out, thats a huge red flag when a breeder hurries or pressures you.

I would definitely sue!!! They cant just do this and keep getting away with it, I am sure your not the only one!

Stephanie


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## Narshalla

How are things going?


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