# My Sour Dough Bread Isn't Sour



## Seagrape

I cannot figure out why my sour dough bread that I make with both homemade sourdough starter and Oregon Trails Sourdough Starter just isn't really sour. I've followed all the rules and tried everything--using two cups of starter instead of one, adding two cups starter to the water and part of the flour and letting it sit overnight until bubbly and then making the bread. I've kept the starter fed but even then it doesn't smell really sour. The bread tastes good but it just doesn't have the sour tang that commercial sourdough bread does. I thought it was just me and my taster but my son had a slice of it yesterday and he commented, "It's good but it isn't very sour." Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


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## woodsman

It's a question of personal preference - I like my sourdough taste like "normal sourdough" which means not sour like the commercial product.


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## Jeff54321

Where do you keep your starter?

How often do you refresh the starter? 

What is the consistency of your starter?

What kind of flour do you use?

What water do you use?


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## Terri

Try a much longer, cooler rising. It seems to bring out the flavors more. 

Also, perhaps a little powdered lemonade koolaid? (I did NOT say that, I did NOT say that.....I suspect it will work though!)


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## Seagrape

Jeff54321 said:


> Where do you keep your starter?
> 
> How often do you refresh the starter?
> 
> What is the consistency of your starter?
> 
> What kind of flour do you use?
> 
> What water do you use?


When first made or fed, overnight on the counter; then into the fridge. Overnight on the counter if I'm going to use it the next day.

I use 1 c. flour to 1 c. water (Culligan water from Walmart) - consistency is like thin pancake batter.

I use all purpose flour.


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## Seagrape

Terri said:


> Try a much longer, cooler rising. It seems to bring out the flavors more.
> 
> Also, perhaps a little powdered lemonade koolaid? (I did NOT say that, I did NOT say that.....I suspect it will work though!)


I've even used a little buttermilk to try and help with the sour flavor. Hmmmm...maybe I should try using some fermented kefir and see if that will make it sour-er.


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## sewsilly

I get a nice sour flavor... and it is intensified by length of fermentation.

For starters, I never refridgerate mine... Long years ago, there were no fridges and the starters traveled all over in covered wagons and such.. skip the fridge... you might get a better sour flavor.

And all starters increase in intensity with age... so if your starter is new (not 10 years old) you can expect it to be milder at first.

And then, when I make the 'sponge' or the 'mother' if I want a really tangy taste, I leave it.. a LONG TIME. I was recently hospitalized for 4 days. At home, on the counter was a mother... When I got home 4 DAYS later, it smelled and looked perfect, I made two loaves of the tangiest, sourdough bread with it...

Time... will help you get the sour....

dawn


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## woodsman

Since the bacteria responsible for giving the sourdough the sour taste feeds on maltose, maybe adding some of it to the dough would help the bacteria reproduce more vigorously?

Also when I left my starter on the kitchen table overnight in order to make pancakes in the morning and then didn't make pancakes for 2 days I decided to salvage it by making bread with it. I refreshed it once and the dough rose really nice but after bake-off it had a really sour taste and clay like chewy crumble of a supermarket sourdough bread. I didn't much care for it but after drying it made very tasty bread cubes for turkey stuffing. I'll definitely bake it again before this year's Thanksgiving.


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## Jeff54321

Absolutely positively undoubtedly and without question DO NOT add anything other than flour and water to your starter...Period.

When you mix your starter to a thin pancake consistency you create an environment that encourages rapid yeast growth. Sourdough starter is a combination of yeasts and Lactic Acid Bacteria. It is the bacteria that gives the sour flavor to sourdough bread.

You need to slow down the growth of your yeast and encourage the growth of the bacteria. You can do this by simply mixing the starter to a much thicker consistency, something heavier than a heavy pancake batter or like a wet bread dough. This is much thicker than what you are doing now.

When you are getting ready to bake, take the starter out of the refrigerator and feed it 3 times at 8 hour intervals keeping it thick and dense. After the third feeding wait until the starter rises to its peak (4-8 hours depending on your conditions)and then make your dough.

Also I think that the Culligan water is water from a reverse osmosis filter. This type of filter removes the minerals from the water and this is not what you want. You can use tap water or tap water that has been left out overnight to allow the chlorine to evaporate or tap water that has been boiled and cooled or spring water or filtered water (not reverse osmosis). Do not use distilled water as it too has no minerals.

Good luck and happy baking,

Jeff


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## katydidagain

sewsilly said it for me. Except I commit starter blasphemy by not tossing 1/2 out then adding flour and water when I "refresh" but adding a bit of sugar (and sometimes flour or water depending on how it looks) and making the yeasties _very happy_. I ask you--which sin is greater? Destroying 1/2 the "babies" or keeping them all fat and happy until baking time? BTW, if I want really sour, I up the amount of starter called for in a recipe--I keep mine a bit heavier than pancake batter consistency.


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## Seagrape

Ah, it's all about technique. Thanks to everyone who posted. I just started a brand new starter using my extremely hard well water and also added more flour to my existing starter. I'll keep them out on the counter instead of the fridge and will make use of all suggestions next time I go to make some sourdough bread.

One more question: Since it's the Lactobacillus that gives the sour tang to the bread, what about adding a little yogurt or buttermilk to the starter?


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## Jeff54321

You can add whatever you like to the starter but it is unnecessary and will lead to unpredictable results. My suggestion would be to add those ingredients to the dough when you are making bread thereby leaving the starter pure and uncontaminated.

Jeff


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## ErikBam

hi,
everybody it is very topic.. it is very use for me.


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## Terri

Seagrape said:


> One more question: Since it's the Lactobacillus that gives the sour tang to the bread, what about adding a little yogurt or buttermilk to the starter?


Personally, I would add it to the bread dough instead!


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## NostalgicGranny

I never could get mine to taste sour either. No matter what I tried. Finally I just gave up thinking the cooler weather just wasn't the right time to try to get it started. I was planning on giving it another try when the weather starts getting warmer.


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## Seagrape

Hmmmm.....never thought that the weather might affect the flavor. I recently made some bread using my homemade starter, and using yogurt whey for the liquid and letting the starter, whey and some of the flour sit overnight in the oven with the light on. The bread still wasn't sour.


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## Jeff54321

Did you change the consistency of your starter prior to baking this bread?


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## woodsman

Seagrape, what recipe are you using to bake your bread?


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## frankcassiesmom

Sourdough gains flavor with age. At first, for a while even, it will taste like normal yeasted bread. As it ages it gets more sour. There's a reason that bread companies use sourdough starters older than I am. It will slowly develop flavor as it ages. Just stick with it. 

I'm with Jeff on the consistency and bacteria development. I always kept my starters quite thick. 100% hydration. I don't measure I weigh as well to keep true 100% hydration of my starter. It made a HUGE difference when I started. When I feed I do the same weight in water and the same weight in flour. So if it's 70 grams of starter I feed it with 70 grams of water and 70 of flour.


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## Seagrape

This time I started with 2 cups thick starter (1 cup flour:1 cup water), 1 cups AP flour and 1 cup yogurt whey mixed together and left overnight in the oven with the light on to make a sponge. It was nice and bubbly the next morning. Then I added 3 T. oil, 1/4 cup sugar, 1 tsp. salt, 2 tsp. lecithin, 1 tsp. baking soda (the sourdough recipe I used called for baking soda) and enough flour to get it to the right consistency. I let it rise twice. I was hoping the lactic acid in the whey would be sufficient to give it a sour tang and was disappointed that it didn't. 

Hmmmm.......thinking I'll leave out the baking soda next time. Maybe that neutralized the lactic acid in the whey. Or maybe I'll try buttermilk for the liquid instead of whey.


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## primal1

I'm just curious as to how many of you pour off the alcohol that forms, if it forms at all?


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## Jeff54321

Having read your recipe I would have to say that the lack of sour in your bread is to be expected.

Find a recipe that includes, starter, flour, water, and salt. Your days of bland bread will be over.

Jeff


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## woodsman

I'd avoid baking soda. It lowers the acidity of the dough AND kills the bacteria.

Starter, flour, water, and salt is right on the dot. Though sometimes I use an egg for a wash (yolk if I want the crust really dark brown), lard to grease the forms (if I use them) and sugar in my coffee if I start baking at 4 am 

I pour the alcohol off the top of the starter - I don't think yeast like it.


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## primal1

It seems that when i read about it people are saying for a stronger flavor they do not pour off the alcohol and for a milder flavor they pour it off.
Makes sense to me too that yeast may not like it but it doesn't seem to be an issue for those who stir it back in... I usually do pour half off but i think next time i'll stir it all in and see what happens


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## NostalgicGranny

I have done it both ways - pouring off the alcohol (hooch) and stirring it back in. When I left it in, my bread tasted like alcohol but still no sour taste. 

Part of the reason I quit was because I was using so much flour feeding the darn thing that it no longer seemed worth it. Then I stumbled across a website that said to feed it twice a day . . . Which meant even more flour.

Exactly how long does it take before the sourness appears?

It sounds like maybe impatience was the problem. Like I should wait a bit longer until the starter develops the right smell. It just seemed wasteful to toss out part of the starter when you feed it. Maybe using buttermilk or sour milk would work until the starter is in full bloom?


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## Seagrape

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has trouble getting the sour taste in sourdough bread, NG. And that's a good question--just how long does it take to get a really sour starter? I'm giving Jeff's idea of a bread made only with starter, flour, water and salt a try tomorrow. Will post how it turns out.


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## Seagrape

Tried it Jeff's way--just starter, flour, water and salt. Good bread but no sour taste.

Tried it using whey and a little buttermilk for the liquid. Again, good bread but still not sour.

I checked the ingredients list on sour bread at the store--contains lactic and fumaric acids. So that's how they do it--add food grade lactic and fumaric acids to the bread to make it really sour. Now we know.


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## woodsman

Seagrape, LOL, credit has to go to Egyptians who invented this method about 6 thousand years ago.


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## katydidagain

Do me a favor and try a little test. Take some of your starter and put it in a zippy bag slung in a canning jar. Every day or so (when it seems "dead"), stir in a teaspoon of sugar or honey. If it gets thin, add some flour; if it seems thick, add a bit of water. Thick pancake batter is the goal. Try this for 10 days then bake a loaf with it--all of it--just a baby one--add salt to taste and enough flour to make a dough. Nothing else. I generally use SD only for English muffins but occasionally make pizza crust; they're both sufficiently sour according to my tasters.


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## primal1

frankcassiesmom said:


> Sourdough gains flavor with age. At first, for a while even, it will taste like normal yeasted bread. As it ages it gets more sour. There's a reason that bread companies use sourdough starters older than I am. It will slowly develop flavor as it ages. Just stick with it.
> 
> I'm with Jeff on the consistency and bacteria development. I always kept my starters quite thick. 100% hydration. I don't measure I weigh as well to keep true 100% hydration of my starter. It made a HUGE difference when I started. When I feed I do the same weight in water and the same weight in flour. So if it's 70 grams of starter I feed it with 70 grams of water and 70 of flour.


WOW, what a difference between weighing and measuring! I've always measured but tried weighing tonight.. it's more like 3/4 to 7/8 cup water to one cup flour than 1 to 1.


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## Jeff54321

Seagrape,

You CAN make a loaf of sourdough that has sour flavor without any commercial additives. Don't give up. If you post the recipe that you used I can help.

Jeff


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## katydidagain

Jeff54321 said:


> Seagrape,
> 
> You CAN make a loaf of sourdough that has sour flavor without any commercial additives. Don't give up. If you post the recipe that you used I can help.
> 
> Jeff


She's posted a couple of recipes she used; I suggested she try my "ridiculous" methodology. Hey, flour is relatively cheap as is sugar or honey; why shouldn't she try your recipe and mine? A true test...for sourness...or true "people pleasing" yumminess? Scared of the results? I'm not.


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## Seagrape

For the 4 ingredient loaf I used 1 c. sourdough starter, 1 c. water, 1 tsp. salt and sufficient flour to get it to the consistency I wanted. I added the starter and water to 1 cup flour and let it sit in the oven all night to make a sponge. Next day I added the rest of the flour and the salt and proceeded from there.

For the last loaf I mixed 1 c. starter, 1 c. flour, 1 c. whey, 1/4 c. buttermilk, mixed them all together and let it sit in the oven for 24 hours. Then I added 1 tsp. salt and sufficient flour to make the consistency I wanted. I let it slow rise in the fridge overnight. I let it rise the second time at room temperature. Both loaves have good flavor and texture--it's just not sour. 

Katydidonce, I took out some starter to another container, added a tsp of sugar to it. Will do that for 10 days and then make a loaf of bread with it. 

I dunno.....by the time my starter is "old enough", I'll probably be too old myself to make bread anymore.


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## Jeff54321

Warmer temperatures favor the production of yeast. Sourdough yeast in particular thrives at 77Â° F. Putting the sponge or the dough in a warm place will result in lots of yeast and little acid. 

After the mixing of the initial ingredients, the sponge should be placed overnight in the refrigerator if you want more sour. These cooler temperatures favor lactic and acetic acid production over that of yeast. After adding the remaining flour and salt on day 2 the dough can then go back to refrigerator (not 100% necessary but will produce more sour) for the second rise and then bake on day 3.

In general you can expect at least 6 hours to pass from the time you take the dough out of the refrigerator on day 3 until you shape, proof, and bake it. I take the dough out and shape it after 4 hours and then proof for 1 to 3 hours. An alternative method is to shape your loaf on day 2 and put the shaped loaf to proof overnight in the refrigerator. On day 3 the shaped loaf comes out of the refrigerator and need not wait 6 hours to make to the oven. Two hours after leaving the refrigerator seems plenty and some bakers put the cold fully proofed loaves directly from the refrigerator to a very hot fully preheated oven. 

Sourdough is a bit unpredictable by nature and the only way to bring it under control is to handle it exactly the same way all of the time. This means identical mixing under set time and temperatures. This sort of control is necessary in a bakery because they cannot wait 45 minutes for bread to rise one day but 3 hours the next. At home you do not need such precision but you do need a feel for properly proofed dough and I am guessing that you already possess that skill. 

The sourest of loaves are produced by all steps occurring at cool temperatures. That is, the starter lives in the refrigerator, then the sponge, the dough and the shaped loaf. This of course means that the time needed to make bread is measured in days and not hours.

While good ingredients are very important, great bread is the result mostly of proper technique.

The additives that you see in commercial breads are there as a short cut in an attempt to produce a sour flavor in less time. Made properly without additives your sourdough bread made at home will be far superior to anything you buy in the store with additives.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Jeff


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## katydidagain

Seagrape said:


> Katydidonce, I took out some starter to another container, added a tsp of sugar to it. Will do that for 10 days and then make a loaf of bread with it.


Yeah! I tried to get just one starter to work for over 20 years using every method out there (add yeast, don't, subtract 1/2 then add more raw ingredients, grapes (unwashed) in the mix, organic flour and not, etc.) and knew I couldn't do it; I always ended up with black stinky "water" on top and tossed my failures. Suddenly in late 2007, it happened! I still don't know how or why but won't question success. My starter has a bit of MD, Ohio, NM, Costa Rica and VA in it so maybe that's the answer? I don't care because this stuff can be ignored to dry out, frozen, rejuvenated, then baked and it rocks!


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## primal1

Jeff54321 said:


> After the mixing of the initial ingredients, the sponge should be placed overnight in the refrigerator if you want more sour. These cooler temperatures favor lactic and acetic acid production over that of yeast. After adding the remaining flour and salt on day 2 the dough can then go back to refrigerator (not 100% necessary but will produce more sour) for the second rise and then bake on day 3.
> 
> In general you can expect at least 6 hours to pass from the time you take the dough out of the refrigerator on day 3 until you shape, proof, and bake it. I take the dough out and shape it after 4 hours and then proof for 1 to 3 hours. An alternative method is to shape your loaf on day 2 and put the shaped loaf to proof overnight in the refrigerator. On day 3 the shaped loaf comes out of the refrigerator and need not wait 6 hours to make to the oven. Two hours after leaving the refrigerator seems plenty and some bakers put the cold fully proofed loaves directly from the refrigerator to a very hot fully preheated oven.
> 
> Sourdough is a bit unpredictable by nature and the only way to bring it under control is to handle it exactly the same way all of the time. This means identical mixing under set time and temperatures. This sort of control is necessary in a bakery because they cannot wait 45 minutes for bread to rise one day but 3 hours the next. At home you do not need such precision but you do need a feel for properly proofed dough and I am guessing that you already possess that skill.
> 
> The sourest of loaves are produced by all steps occurring at cool temperatures. That is, the starter lives in the refrigerator, then the sponge, the dough and the shaped loaf. This of course means that the time needed to make bread is measured in days and not hours.
> 
> While good ingredients are very important, great bread is the result mostly of proper technique.
> 
> The additives that you see in commercial breads are there as a short cut in an attempt to produce a sour flavor in less time. Made properly without additives your sourdough bread made at home will be far superior to anything you buy in the store with additives.
> 
> Let me know if you have any other questions.
> 
> Jeff


Trying this method now... Dough is rising in breadmachine, you say overnight in fridge but can i do 4-6hrs and then let rise before baking or is it then not worth refrigerating at all?


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## Jeff54321

Refrigeration is what encourages acid growth in the bread to make it more sour. It also further develops the flavor of the bread but it is not an absolutely necessary procedure. It's all up to you.

Jeff


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## primal1

sounds good, i do want more flavor but i also want to eat it tonight
thanks


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## Jeff54321

primal1 said:


> sounds good, i do want more flavor but i also want to eat it tonight
> thanks


And therein lies the shortcoming of sourdough. It just beats spontaneity to death!!!!


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## woodsman

Jeff54321 said:


> And therein lies the shortcoming of sourdough. It just beats spontaneity to death!!!!


I wouldn't call it a shortcoming, the choice being between having it fast or having it good, but very rarely both - it's just the way it is. And then again if you consider how long it takes to cure ham, pickle cucumbers, etc., a less than a 24 hour process of baking sourdough bread seem very spontaneous by comparison...


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## Jeff54321

I agree totally but I think we are in a minority.


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## primal1

Thats a good way of looking at it
Does anybody freeze instead of refrigerating? that way we could premake a bunch of loafs ready for baking!?

BTW, I cut the dough in half so i baked one last night and the other is ready for baking soon.. even though i am a tad full!:1pig:


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## primal1

Well the overnight thing didn't make it any more sour but it did make for a 'fluffier' loaf, by that i mean lots more air holes within the loaf after baking.


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## woodsman

I've been experimenting with sourdough bagels these last few days, and the first batch I made came out VERY sour. So sour in fact that after eating two I sliced the other ten and froze them for my internal use  Now, they were done with the same starter I use to bake plain/normal (water, flour, salt, starter) bread that people can't tell from a plain yeasted bread. As the recipe I found called for agave nectar (first time I heard about this sweetener) which I didn't have, I decided to add malt powder (possibly equally weird sweetener) instead, which I did have. Then for a good measure I added a tablespoon of honey too  I figured since most yeasted bagel recipes I did called for atrocious amounts of yeast and sugar I should be fine. 

Anyhow, I'm not sure if it was the malt powder that did it, as I didn't run a real experiment with a control dough without malt powder to compare to, but since I read elsewhere that nothing else competes with Lactobacillus for maltose in the dough maybe it did give the Lactobacillus the kick it needed to multiply more than it would otherwise and thus rise the acidity/sourness of the dough.


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## katydidagain

I think it's the honey...go do some scientific experiments....and prove me right...or wrong...


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## woodsman

katydidonce said:


> I think it's the honey...go do some scientific experiments....and prove me right...or wrong...


Just made another batch (no malt this time - just honey) late last night and of course I was too tired to wait for them to cool down so now I HAD to wake up this early to taste them. Not nearly as sour as the first batch - I 'd say just like regular bagels. Though after reading this: http://sourdough.com/forum/im-doing-something-wrong-my-sourdough-dough and following the links I'm leaning towards believing that it's the handling of the dough itself rather than anything else that made the first batch of bagels very sour.


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## Seagrape

After following the links and reading what other have said, all I can say is, "Wow, I had no idea the problem of not-so-sour sourdough starter was so widespread". Now I don't feel like such a dunce. 

I'll keep trying. I added a bit of malt extract to one batch of starter. Will see what happens.


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## primal1

woodsman said:


> Just made another batch (no malt this time - just honey) late last night and of course I was too tired to wait for them to cool down so now I HAD to wake up this early to taste them. Not nearly as sour as the first batch - I 'd say just like regular bagels. Though after reading this: http://sourdough.com/forum/im-doing-something-wrong-my-sourdough-dough and following the links I'm leaning towards believing that it's the handling of the dough itself rather than anything else that made the first batch of bagels very sour.


How did your handling of dough change between the first time when they were really sour and other times when not sour... think back, WE NEED TO KNOW lol.
I read the link to but didn't really notice anything different to what i am doing, aside from perhaps I am proofing the sponge slightly too long.


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## Jeff54321

Seagrape,

Are you using bleached flour?

Jeff


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## michelleIL

I'm a new member over at The Fresh Loaf, and there is a lady that has a blog. Her name is Sourdolady. She makes her starter with 1 TBSP ww flour and 1TBSP pineapple juice, feeds it that for three days and then switches to water. Once she switches to water, she feeds once daily to let the yeast develop. Once the yeast develops, she feeds twice daily, or she puts the container in the fridge if she's not baking much and feeds once per week. 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

Hope that link works.
MichelleIL


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## kimmom2five

I thinkthat I read at kingarthurflour.com that they use the malt powder to make bread more sour. I can get a good sour taste without it but my loaves are always like bricks, so I have given up for a while. This thread makes me want to try again though.


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## Tapfast

Jeff54321 said:


> Absolutely positively undoubtedly and without question DO NOT add anything other than flour and water to your starter...Period.
> 
> When you mix your starter to a thin pancake consistency you create an environment that encourages rapid yeast growth. Sourdough starter is a combination of yeasts and Lactic Acid Bacteria. It is the bacteria that gives the sour flavor to sourdough bread.
> 
> You need to slow down the growth of your yeast and encourage the growth of the bacteria. You can do this by simply mixing the starter to a much thicker consistency, something heavier than a heavy pancake batter or like a wet bread dough. This is much thicker than what you are doing now.
> 
> When you are getting ready to bake, take the starter out of the refrigerator and feed it 3 times at 8 hour intervals keeping it thick and dense. After the third feeding wait until the starter rises to its peak (4-8 hours depending on your conditions)and then make your dough.
> 
> Also I think that the Culligan water is water from a reverse osmosis filter. This type of filter removes the minerals from the water and this is not what you want. You can use tap water or tap water that has been left out overnight to allow the chlorine to evaporate or tap water that has been boiled and cooled or spring water or filtered water (not reverse osmosis). Do not use distilled water as it too has no minerals.
> 
> Good luck and happy baking,
> 
> Jeff


Thank you for this reply! I am new to sourdough and have been working on my starter. I’m getting a good loaf but I would like more of a sour flavor. I will try doing a thicker ratio. I usually add a tad more water to get that pancake batter consistency, but I’ll try the opposite. I also wonder if I should leave my starter on the counter? My starter grows quite rapidly so that’s another reason why I kept it in the fridge. I started out using einkorn flour but can no longer find it during this pandemic. So now I use whole wheat flour. Thanks again!


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