# Pedophillia ...



## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

As long as we are discussing this topic I thought it might be beneficial to move away from the Duggar family who have already been victimized enough in my book.

While I am not a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist I am a licensed mental health therapist and I have worked with pedophiles and others with unusual sexual predilections. I personally do not believe that pedophiles cannot be treated successfully and feel that their primary illness is along the lines of OCD with their particular obsession being related to children. I believe there has been some success with treatment of youthful offenders who have abused the sexual privacy of others. I guess what I am trying to say is that I will not place a judgement on any other person for something that happened before the brain was finished developing. Persons raised in a very restrictive atmosphere surely are curious about the same things as kids raised in a permissive atmosphere. My mom walked around naked and I saw my father in the shower several times and I was even groped by a neighbor teen. I was never molested, I never felt guilty or dirty or ashamed because no one made me feel that way. I knew the difference between proper and improper behaviors and my parents assured me that the neighbor would bother me no more. I was about ten or eleven and he only slightly older, maybe 14 or so. You are not a victim until someone causes you to feel victimized instead of empowered.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I respect your thoughts on being a victim but there is the legal definition (victim of assault, victim of robbery, etc) and victim mentality which is the term you are using. 

In my opinion, any child who has been sexually fondled by a family member may have lost a bit of her power and the daughters who chose to speak also referred to themselves as victims of the assault. 

I do see the girls being victimized again but their father obviously wanted the to speak publicly so the media isn't the only person taking away their power.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

last week we found out that one of more prominent families in our small community was basically in a living hell for the last 10 years as the father beat up the mom and kids, and he sexually assaulted both of his daughters. the family has been dealing with the revelations from the daughters for the last 6 months when they were strong enough to tell someone, they tossed the dad out and were starting to heal, but then they were victimized again by the local newspaper who felt it was necessary to include every nasty detail of how the dad treated those girls. When did they become victims when he molested them or when the media decided to tell every person in the small town they lived in? it wasnt bad enough that this happens to them but then instead of healing they are dragged in to the limelight...


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

The whole area of sexuality, repression, power issues, and societal values and religion is far too massively complex to properly handle in threads. Society OFTEN gets it wrong - as in the forced castration of the mentally deficient, locking up or chemically castrating the man who *more than any other individual* won WWII for the allies, or over-reacting to crimes related to sex or even illicit sex.

There are predators that the public absolutely needs to be protected from, but it is a perverted society that fears them more than murderers and those prone to violent crime. Can you pull up a national database to see if you are living next to someone who was convicted of murder one? How about one to find if your neighbor has been convicted repeatedly of criminal assault? I rest my case.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

While the OP personally feels pedophiles can be 'rehabbed', the science does not bear that out. Perhaps its the teen offenders who can be?
I think we are far more 'upset' over pedophiles b/c of the children involved. Time & time again we see it happen-& are told it happends a lot that is not reported-for society is fearful, w/good reason. We've tried "stranger danger" & then find out its usually a family member. So, we try harder to protect our little ones.
Even those who feel like they can 'tell their parents anything' fail most times at this. Sad. And scary.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Saying that someone that was sexually assaulted shouldn't feel the way you would/did is just wrong. Just because a person is able to block it out or bury it doesn't erase it from ever having happened.

All the blaming the victim(s) that has surrounded the Duggar case re-victimizes the girls, and it's especially bad because the molestation/rape was never validated, just covered up. As far as I know, the girls were never counseled about what happened, and the molester/rapist wasn't either. 

I just hope the denying that was done by the families, church, and authorities hasn't "normalized" molestation/rape to where it can be explained away as "what boys do" "playing doctor" "innocent" because it's not. It's a crime that can haunt the person assaulted for years.

All the "everyone just wants to be a victim" is utter BS. No one wants to be sexually assaulted, molested, or raped and they are a victim of a horrendous violation of their body.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

sisterpine said:


> As long as we are discussing this topic I thought it might be beneficial to move away from the Duggar family who have already been victimized enough in my book.
> 
> While I am not a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist I am a licensed mental health therapist and I have worked with pedophiles and others with unusual sexual predilections. I personally do not believe that pedophiles cannot be treated successfully and feel that their primary illness is along the lines of OCD with their particular obsession being related to children. I believe there has been some success with treatment of youthful offenders who have abused the sexual privacy of others. I guess what I am trying to say is that I will not place a judgement on any other person for something that happened before the brain was finished developing. Persons raised in a very restrictive atmosphere surely are curious about the same things as kids raised in a permissive atmosphere. My mom walked around naked and I saw my father in the shower several times and I was even groped by a neighbor teen. I was never molested, I never felt guilty or dirty or ashamed because no one made me feel that way. I knew the difference between proper and improper behaviors and my parents assured me that the neighbor would bother me no more. I was about ten or eleven and he only slightly older, maybe 14 or so. You are not a victim until someone causes you to feel victimized instead of empowered.


You are a victim the moment you have something done to you that you don't want done to you. It is not dependant on how someone treats you or empowers you afterwards. How you deal with that victimization with the tools you have and are given is something entirely different. 

This stop being a victim chant does not take into account the person's situation in life and is counterproductive to dealing with that. I would think that as a trained therapist that you must know that the victim needs to acknowledge what happened to them and process it before they can really deal with it properly. If you don't it crops up in other ways in your life.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> While the OP personally feels pedophiles can be 'rehabbed', the science does not bear that out. Perhaps its the teen offenders who can be?
> I think we are far more 'upset' over pedophiles b/c of the children involved. Time & time again we see it happen-& are told it happends a lot that is not reported-for society is fearful, w/good reason. We've tried "stranger danger" & then find out its usually a family member. So, we try harder to protect our little ones.
> Even those who feel like they can 'tell their parents anything' fail most times at this. Sad. And scary.


I worked as a nanny for a family who's son was diagnosed as a pedophile and because the custodial parent was not interested in meeting the terms of set out by police and children's services, I learned way more about pedophiles and teen pedophiles and science does not accept that teen pedophiles can be cured either. 

I was told by numerous folks dealing with this particular young man that not all pedophiles offend or act on their urges, no pedophile is cured but intensive therapy can give them the tools they need to not offend but counseling needs to be ongoing and teen pedophiles are a lot harder to diagnose because people often do mistake it for adolescent curiosity with age difference between victim and offender has a lot to do with a diagnosis. 

I will say that from what I have seen, children's services are reluctant to take a diagnosed pedophile out of the family home or incarcerate them but they will require a very serious set of rules and parameters the family is expected to follow, some of which I noticed the Duggar parents had done but they kinda worded it a bit funny. They mentioned not playing hide and seek, which was also a rule for this household and interestingly enough, how the pedophile was caught, separation by gender was not necessary but there was to be strict rules about leaving the diagnosed pedophile alone with any children younger than himself. 

I keep in touch with a couple of the young children with the family I worked with and this is apparently not being followed (custodial parent felt this was an issue that related to girls only) and two recently have talked to me about their brother doing things like duct taping their genitals down and ripping the tape off. I have spoken to the custodial parent, who feels this is just 'horseplay' and since I do know the counselor's name, I feel compelled to contact them and express my concerns because the children are not being protected and the children are being victimized.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> All the "everyone just wants to be a victim" is utter BS.
> No one wants to be sexually assaulted, molested, or raped and they are a victim of a horrendous violation of their body.


I wish I could like this 1,000 times.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Since nobody else has let me explain that pedophile means something very specific. Its the interest in bodies that DO NOT show sexual characteristics.
It has nothing to do with age, a person in their 30s of indeterminate gender can be the object of a pedophiles lust.
A young teen with developed sexual characteristics will not interest a pedophile.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> *You are a victim the moment you have something done to you that you don't want done to you. *
> It is not dependant on how someone treats you or empowers you afterwards.
> How you deal with that victimization with the tools you have and are given is something entirely different.
> 
> ...


Again, i wish I could like this 1,000 times.

I have been on the receiving end of a 'biblical counselor' who CONVINCED me (after a trauma that scrambled my brains) that it was *I* who was 'unforiving' if I "mentioned the offense to the ex, myself OR anyone else'.
After a year of silence, and being on the verge of self destruction; I finally talked to my GP........who during my divulging of what I had been thru, sat down and began to weep.
THEN she begged me to 'do this, see this person, you have this diagnosis'.
Yes, I was a victim. Something very horrible happened to me. 


Those who 'sweep it under the rug'--'minimalize'--'actually blame the victim for the VIOLATION that happened to them'-- 'make excuses for the offender' IS a GROSS and DISTURBING way to handle someone who has been a victim of a crime or trauma.

What happened to those girls WAS A CRIME.
The media splashing it around made it worse..........and GOD FORBID if those girls who did interviews did so at the 'advice' of their parents......
Those girls were victims of a sick crime....and continue to be violated by the media and the 'boys will be boys' minimalization of what was done to them.

I wish we had an emogee that was of a smiley face puking.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Every kid who played "doctor" is not a pedophile.

I think to a large degree, when hormones kick in, kids are often driven to explore their new sexuality. They have strange things happening to them they don't understand. New hormones flood their body and enter the brain, so thinking is changed. 

Most kids don't have a guide book, so they learn through experience. Just look at percentage of girls having intercourse as early as 13. I don't know if exploration can be stopped. No one has figured out how to stop it yet.

Don't take this as I support what was done by Duggar. I just think that kids will be kids and there is very little that can be done to stop it. The question is when does it change from innocent to not innocent?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> Every kid who played "doctor" is not a pedophile.
> 
> I think to a large degree, when hormones kick in, kids are often driven to explore their new sexuality. They have strange things happening to them they don't understand. New hormones flood their body and enter the brain, so thinking is changed.
> 
> ...


It was explained to me that just like adults, it all comes back to consent or abuse of perceived authority. If two six year old kids want to check out the difference between girl parts and boy parts, there is a level of consent and the law would agree. If a 14 year old boy is out playing hide and seek with his 7 year old cousin and pulls down her pants and touches without her consent, there is no mutual consent, even less if the little girl says she doesn't like it, the same would apply if a 12 year old girl pulled down a boys pants and fondled him. If a child is sleeping and another fondles them, there is no level of consent or mutual curiosity. A 5 year age difference means a younger child will look up to the older youth as person of authority, especially if they have had the position of babysitter and the law will likely consider the younger child having been coerced but authority but then again, if someone is old enough to babysit, I would think it would be implied that they know right from wrong enough to safely look after a child. 

Being a fairly direct person, I actually conducted an independent mom survey about such things because in the case I mentioned, the custodial parent brushed it off as boys being boys and the little girl wanting attention. Out of all the males I could find to ask, none indicated they ever fondled a girl 5 years younger, never a close family member and those that did indicate they had 'researched' actually tended to research with like minded or consenting kids of the same age because they indicated that an unwilling child/youth would tell and adult and they'd get in trouble. Taking it one step further, I actually surveyed females and got very similar responses.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

When the "kid" is 14+ (aren't 14+ year old considered adults in crimes?) and his victims are under 10, and under 5 in this case. That's not "playing doctor" or "innocent" or "curiosity", a 14 year old knows that is not acceptable behavior, it's molestation or rape in my opinion. 

Exploration involves similar ages.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> Out of all the males I could find to ask, none indicated they ever fondled a girl 5 years younger, never a close family member and those that did indicate they had 'researched' actually tended to research with like minded or consenting kids of the same age because they indicated that an unwilling child/youth would tell and adult and they'd get in trouble. Taking it one step further, I actually surveyed females and got very similar responses.


Do you suppose that anyone exploring outside those parameters they now know to be "normal" would have told you?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you suppose that anyone exploring outside those parameters they now know to be "normal" would have told you?


They seemed to. They were more than willing to admit to what age they started to explore their sexuality and offered names in many cases because to most they are fond memories. One female did indicate that she had been molested by the father of a child she babysat, one male indicated that he was molested by a family member of a very notorious serial pedophile in his teens, two mentioned being forced to perform oral sex on each other in a park by some older kids, my ex tells me he explored a young girl when he was about 12 and at a community picnic and later found out they were third cousins, but all seemed to feel that an unwilling youth of the same age might be inclined to speak with an adult. 

I don't think pedophiles are all that common but my questions related to exploring, at what age this might have happened and it's interesting to note that most indicated they explored at a much older age than one might think because most have some idea that they might get in trouble.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So A 12 year old girl who encourages a curious 7 year old is a pedophile?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> When the "kid" is 14+ (aren't 14+ year old considered adults in crimes?) and his victims are under 10, and under 5 in this case. That's not "playing doctor" or "innocent" or "curiosity", a 14 year old knows that is not acceptable behavior, it's molestation or rape in my opinion.
> 
> Exploration involves similar ages.


Not according to the law or to the medical profession.

My point, which I didn't make very well, is that when a child goes through puberty and "explores", I doubt if there is much, if any, correlation to pedophilia. 

By definition, what Josh did is not considered pedophilia.


> A person who is diagnosed with pedophilia must be at least 16 years of age, but adolescents must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilia.[1][2]
> wikipedia


I'm not excusing his behavior, but labeling him a pedophile is wrong. I also don't think at 14 he could be charged with rape.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> So A 12 year old girl who encourages a curious 7 year old is a pedophile?


You would have to define encourages?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There has to be thousands of definitions for pedophilia on the web- this one works too: https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia

No mention of age. I don't know who to copy (very well) on this laptop or I'd link more.

The Duggar kid could very well be rapist as well as a pedophile. No one knows exactly what he did to those girls, and they aren't talking. 

My opinion only but he should be strung up by the dangly bits.

ETA: I AM NOT SINGLING ANYONE OUT. That said, if the answer to what Josh Duggar did involves anything other than, "He was dead wrong, and the girls have been victimized repeatedly." That person would not be allowed anywhere near my grand babies. Just sayin'.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> Not according to the law or to the medical profession.
> 
> My point, which I didn't make very well, is that when a child goes through puberty and "explores", I doubt if there is much, if any, correlation to pedophilia.
> 
> ...


By your own definition since there was more than a five year age difference he meets the criteria for an adolescent. Based in the limited information we have I don't know whether he has a serious problem or not. What we do know is what he did was a crime. He has escaped any criminal liability for his actions. I'd prefer to know that he was properly evaluated and counseled.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> So A 12 year old girl who encourages a curious 7 year old is a pedophile?


You would have to define encourages but if you're asking if pedophiles can be female, it is my understanding they can be.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

mmoetc said:


> By your own definition since there was more than a five year age difference he meets the criteria for an adolescent. Based in the limited information we have I don't know whether he has a serious problem or not. What we do know is what he did was a crime. He has escaped any criminal liability for his actions. I'd prefer to know that he was properly evaluated and counseled.


Read it again. He would have had to have been at least 16. At 14, he was considered pre-adolescent.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> Read it again. He would have had to have been at least 16. At 14, he was considered pre-adolescent.


Read your own definition. It seperates adolescents from adults. Here are some definitions of adolescents.http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/adolescent

Decide for yourself if he might qualify.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

mmoetc said:


> Read your own definition. It seperates adolescents from adults. Here are some definitions of adolescents.http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/adolescent
> 
> Decide for yourself if he might qualify.


Here's the quote. The 1st segment says a child must be at least 16 to be diagnosed as a pedophile. That stands by itself. Must be at least 16. The 2nd segment simply adds to the 1st. It further defines pedophilia. In other words, a person would have to be at least 16 and the child would have to be at least 5 years younger. A 16 yo and a 15 yo would not be pedophilia.


> A person who is diagnosed with pedophilia must be at least 16 years of age, but adolescents must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilia.[1][2]
> wikipedia


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> Here's the quote. The 1st segment says a child must be at least 16 to be diagnosed as a pedophile. That stands by itself. Must be at least 16. The 2nd segment simply adds to the 1st. It further defines pedophilia. In other words, a person would have to be at least 16 and the child would have to be at least 5 years younger. A 16 yo and a 15 yo would not be pedophilia.


I'm not going to get further caught up in parsing a vague, to me, definition. 

As I said, I don't know that young Mr Duggar is a pedophile. It does appear to me that he hasn't been properly evaluated and that does trouble me.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The thing that bothers me the most are the constant excuses. 

This boy (and yes he was a juvenile) did not make a mistake. He made a choice. The first time. 

He was old enough to know that what he was doing was wrong. He did what he did because he wanted to. 

The reason/excuse given was that he was curious. Well one breast and pubic grope and examination should have satisfied that curiosity. 

The rest of the groping and examining (and we don't know what else of course) was premeditated. He planned to do it and he did it - for sexual gratification. It gave him pleasure and he did not care that what he was doing was immoral (against his upbringing and religious beliefs) and criminal.

Personally I am disgusted by the victim shaming. Comments such as 'stop being a victim" infers that your trauma is a choice and that you deliberately won't get over it - walk it off, shake it off, haters gonna hate - because YOU have a character flaw. YOU are just weak. More support for the perpetrator.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

sisterpine said:


> As long as we are discussing this topic I thought it might be beneficial to move away from the Duggar family who have already been victimized enough in my book.
> 
> While I am not a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist I am a licensed mental health therapist and I have worked with pedophiles and others with unusual sexual predilections. I personally do not believe that pedophiles cannot be treated successfully and feel that their primary illness is along the lines of OCD with their particular obsession being related to children. I believe there has been some success with treatment of youthful offenders who have abused the sexual privacy of others. I guess what I am trying to say is that I will not place a judgement on any other person for something that happened before the brain was finished developing. Persons raised in a very restrictive atmosphere surely are curious about the same things as kids raised in a permissive atmosphere. My mom walked around naked and I saw my father in the shower several times and I was even groped by a neighbor teen. I was never molested, I never felt guilty or dirty or ashamed because no one made me feel that way. I knew the difference between proper and improper behaviors and my parents assured me that the neighbor would bother me no more. I was about ten or eleven and he only slightly older, maybe 14 or so. You are not a victim until someone causes you to feel victimized instead of empowered.


It's odd that a health care professional would have such a callous and dismissive approach to victims and quite honestly, I've never heard of one suggesting that if a child has been sexually molested, they should shake it off, dust themselves off and get over it. Doesn't your profession usually advocate a bit of counseling or is the suck it up and get over it approach something new?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Many Jews who did so walk out the camps... went on to shed their righteousness to live 've the low few of a victim, yet instead let it go to live a fulfilling live.... with forgiveness and acceptance that what they went was not right or fair or humane. 

Victim hood can be a chooses lifestyle it is a choice once the situation changes and you are once again empowered with person freedom of choice for yourself.

Life is not fair or easy it is a harsh struggle for all, the struggles are different and there are many options to deal with them. Moving on and view it as an event that is over to focuse on a better future is truly beneficial. Not all choose that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Interesting that a "child " 17 years 360 days old isn't mature enough to say yes to sex but so many want to hang this 15 year old for his choices about sex.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Many Jews who did so walk out the camps... went on to shed their righteousness to live 've the low few of a victim, yet instead let it go to live a fulfilling live.... with forgiveness and acceptance that what they went was not right or fair or humane.
> 
> Victim hood can be a chooses lifestyle it is a choice once the situation changes and you are once again empowered with person freedom of choice for yourself.
> 
> Life is not fair or easy it is a harsh struggle for all, the struggles are different and there are many options to deal with them. Moving on and view it as an event that is over to focuse on a better future is truly beneficial. Not all choose that.


So are you going to suck it up and live with the fact that same sex marriage is legal or are you going to play the victim and sue anyone you can think of for something that has nothing to do with your life?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> Interesting that a "child " 17 years 360 days old isn't mature enough to say yes to sex but so many want to hang this 15 year old for his choices about sex.


That's because the children he molested didn't have choice about it. He did, and he was old enough to know it was wrong.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

What does it matter now,.... did anyone one die.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> What does it matter now,.... did anyone one die.


Why does it matter that same sex couples can get married? No one is dying.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

kasilofhome said:


> What does it matter now,.... did anyone one die.


Are you responding to my post? If so, I find the callus disregard for those little girls disgusting. 

Is your opinion on all sexual assault so cavalier?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Interesting that a "child " 17 years 360 days old isn't mature enough to say yes to sex but so many want to hang this 15 year old for his choices about sex.


In many states the "age of consent" is 16

I'm not sure "maturity" has anything to do with it, judging from the way some "adults" act


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Every kid who played "doctor" is not a pedophile.
> 
> I think to a large degree, when hormones kick in, kids are often driven to explore their new sexuality. They have strange things happening to them they don't understand. New hormones flood their body and enter the brain, so thinking is changed.
> 
> ...


Seems there's guidelines for the "kids will be kids" and isn't it no more than 2 yrs difference b/4 they consider this MORE than kids being curious?

I do not know about the Duggers. Have heard that the oldest son "fondled" at least 2 way younger sisters. I HAVE heard more but not sure its true.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Why on earth does every thread have to turn into homosexuality discussions? Why?
Anyone wanting to discuss the SCOTUS upcoming decision, please start a new thread of look for the one already there & resurrect it. Please.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> Seems there's guidelines for the "kids will be kids" and isn't it no more than 2 yrs difference b/4 they consider this MORE than kids being curious?
> 
> I do not know about the Duggers. Have heard that the oldest son "fondled" at least 2 way younger sisters. I HAVE heard more but not sure its true.


I posted more later in thread. Person has to be at least 16 to be defined as pedophile AND the person abused must be at least 5 years younger. So if the person is under 16, they can't be defined as a pedophile regardless of the age of the abused person.

I imagine this has to do with parts of the brain not being fully formed at that age and the effect of puberty.

Change of subject.

A girl reaching puberty requires the mother to take action (bra, pads) while a boy doesn't require any action. I wonder if this results in more moms talking to daughters about sex than moms or dads talking to sons?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Why on earth does every thread have to turn into homosexuality discussions? Why?
> Anyone wanting to discuss the SCOTUS upcoming decision, please start a new thread of look for the one already there & resurrect it. Please.


It was an example for a question about whether or not she is going to do what she wants others to do. Suck it up and not be a victim.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Why on earth does every thread have to turn into homosexuality discussions? Why?
> Anyone wanting to discuss the SCOTUS upcoming decision, please start a new thread of look for the one already there & resurrect it. Please.


You do a pretty good job of posting politics in most threads.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> It was an example for a question about whether or not she is going to do what she wants others to do. Suck it up and not be a victim.


Oh, I see, and that just has homosexual all over it?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Oh, I see, and that just has homosexual all over it?


Well it is an example that she has discussed numerous times. Examples that actually pertain to the person you are dialoguing with are always the best.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

mrsgcpete said:


> last week we found out that one of more prominent families in our small community was basically in a living hell for the last 10 years as the father beat up the mom and kids, and he sexually assaulted both of his daughters. the family has been dealing with the revelations from the daughters for the last 6 months when they were strong enough to tell someone, they tossed the dad out and were starting to heal, but then they were victimized again by the local newspaper who felt it was necessary to include every nasty detail of how the dad treated those girls. When did they become victims when he molested them or when the media decided to tell every person in the small town they lived in? it wasnt bad enough that this happens to them but then instead of healing they are dragged in to the limelight...


How old are the daughters? If they are adults, or even mid-teens or older, they may have wanted the details printed, so people would know the truth about their sperm donor.

Did outsiders know, or suspect anything?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> I wonder if this results in more moms talking to daughters about sex than moms or dads talking to sons?


Fathers talk to 5 year old sons about sex? Naw they let them work things out in the clubhouse and with their babysitters......


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I will apologize in advance if I am reading this wrong........

I have read this thread, maybe 4 times.......and it just seems like some justify 'molestation'. 
It seems that some folks are real down on the victims of this crime......

Please tell me that I am reading this wrong?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

I'm not seeing that, Laura, I did see some sarcasm & I did see someone who was fondled NOT pose as a victim, everyone deals in their own way...

Here's one far ya: I have a friend, was married to a BF of my ex so that's how I knew her. I felt her DH was 'unusual' to her 8 y/o DD. Did not treat her like her 2 sons...found out yrs later he was in her room many nites...abusing.
I can hardly type this b/c looking back I could see something was wrong but I truly felt the man just didn't know how to relate to the little girl like he could the boys. I still say I find it hard to believe wives don't know these things...anyway, it was HER attitude that floored me as well. 
She told her DD: "Get over it, worse things have happened to people"!!!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Fathers talk to 5 year old sons about sex? Naw they let them work things out in the clubhouse and with their babysitters......


You went through puberty at 5?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I will apologize in advance if I am reading this wrong........
> 
> I have read this thread, maybe 4 times.......and it just seems like some justify 'molestation'.
> It seems that some folks are real down on the victims of this crime......
> ...


You are reading this wrong.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ok, phew.
The way I see it:

Teen boy chooses to molest his very young sisters.
Teen boy's parents find out.
Teen boy is not prosecuted by law.
Girls are victims of molestation.
Media gets story.

Girls have had 'counseling' to deal with the molestation?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The incidences of child on child sexual molestation are not rare. One third of all sexual molestation is child on child. It is an assault epidemic.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

emdeengee said:


> The incidences of child on child sexual molestation are not rare. One third of all sexual molestation is child on child. * It is an assault epidemic*.


 I thought it was *"sexual Insecure"*
_ The New Normal._


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

thesedays said:


> How old are the daughters? If they are adults, or even mid-teens or older, they may have wanted the details printed, so people would know the truth about their sperm donor.
> 
> Did outsiders know, or suspect anything?



the daughters are 18 and 20, no one knew anything from what i have heard, the girls were always quiet when i was around them, but some kids are like that.. the paper printed every little disgusting detail from the police report and the family feels like they have been victimized again. enough people wrote in to the paper complaining on behalf of the family, that they have publicly acknowledged that they will change how they report these types of things in the future. other media outlets printed a less detailed account of what went on (he confessed to a relative) and seeing his name, rape, daughters and for 10 years was enough to figure out what a scumbag he is.

oops computer was logged in to Pete's account. this is mrs gc pete


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> You went through puberty at 5?


No but I was sure interested in girls !


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Perhaps part of the issue with this and other discussions is the very definition of pedophile. Are we talking about the dictionary definition, the mental health DSM definition/diagnoses or the legal criminal definition. All are somewhat different and the definition you have been exposed to colors your reaction to the words. I do not believe that anyone "should" feel a certain way about anything. Though it would be wonderful if the fix were that easy. We can argue and discuss this till we all turn purple or into dust and never agree on who is a victim of what. Because then we need to define the word "victim" and off we go again!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

sisterpine said:


> Perhaps part of the issue with this and other discussions is the very definition of pedophile. Are we talking about the dictionary definition, the mental health DSM definition/diagnoses or the legal criminal definition. All are somewhat different and the definition you have been exposed to colors your reaction to the words. I do not believe that anyone "should" feel a certain way about anything. Though it would be wonderful if the fix were that easy. We can argue and discuss this till we all turn purple or into dust and never agree on who is a victim of what. Because then we need to define the word "victim" and off we go again!



I believe you feel you defined it quite well and if you're strictly talking about pedophiles, you're talking about children and it's pretty tough for them to feel empowered after being molested so again, I feel you're comment is insensitive and callous and more so if that's how you would counsel a child who's been sexually assaulted.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Maybe each child should have their own voice as I doubt that each child is as fragile as some believe.....


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

sisterpine said:


> As long as we are discussing this topic I thought it might be beneficial to move away from the Duggar family who have already been victimized enough in my book.
> 
> *While I am not a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist* I am a licensed mental health therapist and I have worked with pedophiles and others with unusual sexual predilections. I personally do not believe that pedophiles cannot be treated successfully and feel that their primary illness is along the lines of OCD with their particular obsession being related to children. I believe there has been some success with treatment of youthful offenders who have abused the sexual privacy of others. I guess what I am trying to say is that I will not place a judgement on any other person for something that happened before the brain was finished developing. Persons raised in a very restrictive atmosphere surely are curious about the same things as kids raised in a permissive atmosphere. My mom walked around naked and I saw my father in the shower several times and I was even groped by a neighbor teen. I was never molested, I never felt guilty or dirty or ashamed because no one made me feel that way. I knew the difference between proper and improper behaviors and my parents assured me that the neighbor would bother me no more. I was about ten or eleven and he only slightly older, maybe 14 or so. You are not a victim until someone causes you to feel victimized instead of empowered.





sisterpine said:


> Perhaps part of the issue with this and other discussions is t*he very definition* of pedophile.
> 
> Are we talking about the *dictionary definition,* the mental health* DSM definition/diagnoses or the legal criminal definition*.


I remember when Bill Clinton asked for someone to give him the definition of "sex".......
Somehow when humans get into 'word games' (well you must define ____) really that is an indication that the person has no leg to stand on.
At the end of the day, it's a word, it has a definition, the end.



> All are somewhat different and the definition you have been exposed to colors your reaction to the words. I do not believe that anyone "should" feel a certain way about anything. Though it would be wonderful if the fix were that easy. We can argue and discuss this till we all turn purple or into dust and never agree on who is a victim of what. Because then we need to define the word "victim" and off we go again!


I 'see' what's implied here.
A 'pedophile 'can't help it' (you know a REAL pedophile, based upon a definition)......so if I 'feel a certain way' it's wrong, because some pedophiles have a disorder, a genetic misfire, demon possession....whatever you want to call it....and because of that 'excuse' it 'wrong to feel a certain way'???

That's a big negative ghost rider.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victim

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/victim

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/victim

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/victim
((This is a good one....))

The English Language is pretty clear on what a Victim is.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

I'm still trying to find the poster who condoned pedophilia...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> I'm still trying to find the poster who condoned pedophilia...



Why. ? Are you starting a club ?

Sorry the setup was to good I couldn't pass it up , I'm sure you wouldn't condone such things.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Why. ? Are you starting a club ?
> 
> Sorry the setup was to good I couldn't pass it up , I'm sure you wouldn't condone such things.


Aha! It was you who said it???


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I remember when Bill Clinton asked for someone to give him the definition of "sex".......
> Somehow when humans get into 'word games' (well you must define ____) really that is an indication that the person has no leg to stand on.
> At the end of the day, it's a word, it has a definition, the end.
> 
> ...


It's not something I've ever thought to be ambiguous and I would think it might be pretty crass to tell someone like Elizabeth Smart or those young ladies that were kidnapped and held against their will in Ohio that victim is an ambiguous term that needs definition and they need to stop acting like a victim and get on with it.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

What good does wallowing in self pity ....things happen when the event is over seek to heal and deal with it quickly to enjoy live and grow from it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> What good does wallowing in self pity ....things happen when the event is over seek to heal and deal with it quickly to enjoy live and grow from it.


Who says a victim wallows in self pity? Should they not be allowed the time and counseling they need to move forward? Would you tell the mother who's child was killed by a drunk driver to get over it and stop wallowing in self pity or would you advise her that grieving is an individual process and it takes time to work through?

Pedophiles have done some awful things to children and I'm afraid it takes some a lot more than a slap on the back to get them through the trauma and in some cases, the trauma is bad enough that they don't get past it. 

I know a boy that was sexually assaulted at a very young age and even 5 years after, he still has some very serious issues that counselors are still working on. Most days, he's a pretty normal kid but if a situation or circumstances make him uncomfortable, he falls apart. He's not wallowing in self pity, his life was shattered and there are days he's simply very afraid it could happen again. I'm sure it doesn't help that the pedophile who did these things to him still lives in the community because young children are considered unreliable witnesses isn't helping him emotionally either. 

I also know an adult who was one of the few children that Clifford Olsen raped but didn't kill and unless you can comprehend the horror of a child being repeatedly raped and told they would be killed, I suspect you'll never understand the difference between victim and wallowing. On a day to day basis, he lives a pretty good life but it took a lot to get him there and but he still has some issues with trust and authority and he is a loner. 

Not all pedophiles just watch kiddie porn and not all children who are victims of pedophiles wallow in self pity but they are victims and they deserve to be treated as such perhaps that starts with giving them enough of a voice in court to justify a conviction so they can be empowered.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Wr, seems that you have been personally impacted and might benefit thru some help.

It seems that sister's post where she shared that it happened and it's over and others who have gone thru carp that dust themself off and move on offend you ..... I wonder why.


Yes, living immobilized due to a tragedy is not healthy and very uncaring encourage folks to remain frozen in time. Get help move on.... there are more tragedies and joys to face. I am proud of sistepine no need to hide, live in shame of a crime,go as on getting better.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Wr, seems that you have been personally impacted and might benefit thru some help.
> 
> .


If you are taking that approach, one might wonder if you have suffered terribly in a homosexual relationship yourself and you also might benefit from some therapy rather than railing about it online and trying to start a ridiculous and laughable lawsuit. 

really, get some help and move on.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Wr, seems that you have been personally impacted and might benefit thru some help.
> 
> It seems that sister's post where she shared that it happened and it's over and others who have gone thru carp that dust themself off and move on offend you ..... I wonder why.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure when you got your psychology degree but I can assure you, I suffer no tragedy and am not paralyzed by anything and have a pretty awesome life, terrific kids, an awesome spouse and amazing family. 

I have worked side by side with many health care professionals in my volunteer capacity and I can assure you, the reason they are in place is to help people, not slap them on the back and tell them to get over it. 

That may work for you but it sure doesn't help a child who's been molested by a pedophile. That is the topic of this thread is it not??


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, Elizabeth smart is no victim per her. You do not speak for all you have gone thru sex abuse ....logically you can't nor can I but many like Elizabeth smart it is over move on help others to move on.

Smart has been interviewed Today where she stated... "My mom raised me to get back up."...

So, I to feel the same way.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, Elizabeth smart is no victim per her. You do not speak for all you have gone thru sex abuse ....logically you can't nor can I but many like Elizabeth smart it is over move on help others to move on.
> 
> Smart has been interviewed Today where she stated... "My mom raised me to get back up."...
> 
> So, I to feel the same way.


It is my understanding that she 'got back up' after a fair bit of counseling and a supportive family. Not a group of people who slapped her on the back and told her to get over it.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

And she is not a victim, not a life time and had you read her stuff you would have known her family's view and how moving on to live a full life was the focus of her therapy... that is where she is at in helping others.. shedding the victim label quickly.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> And she is not a victim, not a life time and had you read her stuff you would have known her family's view and how moving on to live a full life was the focus of her therapy... that is where she is at in helping others.. shedding the victim label quickly.


My point exactly! She was a victim and the law as well, her family and most of society agreed she was victimized but with the help of family, an empathetic team of health care professionals she was able to move forward. 

She has moved on to helping other *victims *while working with mental health professionals and families and it sure doesn't involve a slap on the back and telling them to suck it up.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

She is helping.... her words....survivors and victims... Those are two sets of people. She states in her own words that it was her mother's teaching of getting back up and surviving and long with her faith that made her deal with the daily hunger, raping and boredom. Not being the victim...

She, went thru hell but never saw herself the victim. She was lonely and preyed to God, she had it in her all along because... you get up when you get bucked off.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> My point exactly! She was a victim and the law as well, her family and most of society agreed she was victimized but with the help of family, an empathetic team of health care professionals she was able to move forward.
> 
> She has moved on to helping other *victims *while working with mental health professionals and families and it sure doesn't involve a slap on the back and telling them to suck it up.


She is actually still working through it. Helping others is part of her process.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> She is actually still working through it. Helping others is part of her process.


That doesn't surprise me. We have a young man who was repeatedly sexually assaulted by his hockey coach and he's started a foundation for many who have gone through similar and he and a couple others who suffered the same, have been very clear that it takes a very long time to find a new kind of normal and even longer when they are high profile situations.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Dismiss anyone who does need to be a victim. Why the need for people to be victims... is it sorta like victim hood by munchkins?

Sister gets raked for being a survivor and Elizabeth smart is not allowed to be a survivor. Seems a bit controlling.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Dismiss anyone who does need to be a victim. Why the need for people to be victims... is it sorta like victim hood by munchkins?
> 
> Sister gets raked for being a survivor and Elizabeth smart is not allowed to be a survivor. Seems a bit controlling.


Wasn't it you that said that nobody needs to be a victim and they're just wallowing in self pity? 

I just need to get this all straight. I believe you said that a child who was raped or molested by a pedophile is wallowing in self pity but Elizabeth Smart's sister is a victim? Could you give me a hint as to what criteria you're using or are you just making this up as you go?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

wr said:


> Wasn't it you that said that nobody needs to be a victim and they're just wallowing in self pity?
> 
> I just need to get this all straight. I believe you said that a child who was raped or molested by a pedophile is wallowing in self pity but Elizabeth Smart's sister is a victim? Could you give me a hint as to what criteria you're using or are you just making this up as you go?


I stand by that..

Sisterpine a member here ....started the thread she dared to state that she moved on from what happened to her and you express calluse and dismissive treatment of VICTIMS

You mentioned the Smart girl and got that wrong with how she and her family claim she dealt with it. Surly Elizabeth smart knowns more about the events and her life and what her mom taught her and said to her

Seems if a person refuses a label of victim that is a problem for you... you keep labeling them that.

So, since you smart girl is claiming she's not a victim and that she in her OWN words during interviews states ...that "I work with victims and survivors.." Elizabeth smart knows the difference between a Victim and a survivor. 

To quote a person who tour doing motivational speaking engagements.


The hardest wheelchair to get out of is the one in your mind.... letting go of victim hood is victory.

Do you have a need for victims?


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## BackwoodsIdaho (Nov 2, 2004)

basketti said:


> If you are taking that approach, one might wonder if you have suffered terribly in a homosexual relationship yourself and you also might benefit from some therapy rather than railing about it online and trying to start a ridiculous and laughable lawsuit.
> 
> really, get some help and move on.



:goodjob:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> I stand by that..
> 
> Sisterpine a member here ....started the thread she dared to state that she moved on from what happened to her and you express calluse and dismissive treatment of VICTIMS
> 
> ...



I'm afraid I just can't compete with your level of empathy.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

wr said:


> I'm afraid your words speak quite clearly for a Christian woman and the rest is just your garden variety dog and pony show.


I take that with pleasure.

Some parents raise children to be confident able adults, some parents keep children dependent on them to feel needed. I wonder why some people keep people as victims for life. It is a liberal mentality in that they seek out groups or individuals that need help and never seem to resolve the issues.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I am so thankful that there are people who have not been victimized by a molester, rapist, abuser, or murderer. 
I am so thankful for those who have never been put in a situation that was so traumatic and terrifying, that it physically altered their brains.

And I am so thankful, that God has Mercy on those who have been victimized.
I am so thankful for His tender loving care.
It saddens me to see so many people who are merciless.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

As Elizabeth smart put it. "When I was a victim in there hands .( So that had to be when it was happening to her) that's when she felt like a victim...

... but it ended for her she claims that family and faith in God aided her... She states that she was no longer a victim seeing them imprisoned.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> As Elizabeth smart put it. "When I was a victim in there hands .( So that had to be when it was happening to her) that's when she felt like a victim...
> 
> ... but it ended for her she claims that family and faith in God aided her... She states that she was no longer a victim seeing them imprisoned.





> What good does wallowing in self pity ....things happen when the event is over seek to heal and deal with it quickly to enjoy live and grow from it.


If PTSD is present it's different though. As Laura mentioned, PTSD physically and observably alters the brain, you can't just rise above it by choosing to.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> It is a liberal mentality in that they seek out groups or individuals that need help and never seem to resolve the issues.


Bull hockey. 

Go try that theory out on a FB support page for combat veterans with PTSD and see how it goes down.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Tiempo said:


> If PTSD is present it's different though. As Laura mentioned, *PTSD physically and observably alters the brain, you can't just rise above it by choosing to.*


If I could like this post 1,000 times I would.

I 'get it' that some people grew up in a 'suck it up butter cup' kinda home...and they had to suck it up, so they think everyone else should too.

And I get that we as a nation have become 'soft' in so many areas......

BUT

To tell someone with PTSD to 'suck it up' is like telling someone w/ a severed spine 'to stop whining and start walking'.
Educate yourself on PTSD before you write someone off as 'playing a victim role'.
People who suffer, and I do mean suffer, from PTSD would give ANYTHING to be rid of it.......

https://www.facebook.com/PAforPTSD?fref=pb&hc_location=profile_browser

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...83E64180662C9F4E545CBDBD49F28B13C&FORM=IQFRBA


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Dupplicat


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Search ing something


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181836/

"Traumatic stressors such as early trauma can lead to posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which affects about 8% of Americans at some time In their lives,1 as well as depression,2,3 substance abuse,1,4 dissociation,5 personality disorders,6,7 and health problems.8 For many trauma victims, PTSD can be a lifelong problem"

http://brainblogger.com/2015/01/24/how-does-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-change-the-brain/
"Effect of trauma on the hippocampus
The most significant neurological impact of trauma is seen in the hippocampus. PTSD patients show a considerable reduction in the volume of the hippocampus. This region of the brain is responsible for memory functions. It helps an individual to record new memories and retrieve them later in response to specific and relevant environmental stimuli. The hippocampus also helps us distinguish between past and present memories.'

Just stop being a victim even though you have changed physically due to the trauma.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181836/
> 
> "Traumatic stressors such as early trauma can lead to posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which affects about 8% of Americans at some time In their lives,1 as well as depression,2,3 substance abuse,1,4 dissociation,5 personality disorders,6,7 and health problems.8 For many trauma victims, PTSD can be a lifelong problem"
> 
> ...


Just get up and walk, even though you only have one leg.....
Same thing.
Not all wounds are visible.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Bull hockey.
> 
> Go try that theory out on a FB support page for combat veterans with PTSD and see how it goes down.


We're not talking about ptsd here, we're talking of pedophilia. 
Since the majority -only 12% of the military support this POTUS-then I'll have to deduce there's not a majority of liberals in the PTSD group either. 
I'll stand by that statement that libs love to find groups to set up programs for. Spend 100Xs the am't that would fix the problem by setting up a buerocracy that lasts forever & the problem is bigger after decades.

Who do you suppose started the 'track chairs' for wounded vets? Costs the gov't-us-nothing! Certainly was not a liberal.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> We're not talking about ptsd here, we're talking of pedophilia.


I'm pretty sure at the point when it was decided that victims were not allowed to be victims and they just need to 'get help and get over it' is when it was pointed out that pedophilia CAN cause PTSD and THAT you just don't 'suck it up and get over it".



> Since the majority -only 12% of the military support this POTUS-then I'll have to deduce there's not a majority of liberals in the PTSD group either.
> I'll stand by that statement that libs love to find groups to set up programs for. Spend 100Xz the am't that would fix the problem by setting up a buerocracy that lasts forever & the problem is bigger after decades.
> 
> Who do you suppose started the 'track chairs' for wounded vets? Costs the gov't-us-nothing! Certainly was not a liberal.


I don't care if someone (and by the way PTSD is not just a military disorder) is a liberal, conservative, gay, straight, chrisitan, muslum, black, white, north or south.............THEY are a HUMAN BEING, and PTSD is a hideous awful thing that no one deserves to suffer from. Period. End of Statement.

Just because you cannot see the wound, injury, scar, does not mean it's not there. 
Pedophilia can cause PTSD just like combat.
Again, with the internet at our fingertips, and libraries upon libraries, we have no excuse to be uneducated about ANYTHING.
Educate yourself, Stop the Stigma.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> .
> Again, with the internet at our fingertips, and libraries upon libraries, we have no excuse to be uneducated about ANYTHING.
> Educate yourself, Stop the Stigma.



Nope now it's a case of information overload you can't know everything !


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> We're not talking about ptsd here, we're talking of pedophilia.
> Since the majority -only 12% of the military support this POTUS-then I'll have to deduce there's not a majority of liberals in the PTSD group either.
> I'll stand by that statement that libs love to find groups to set up programs for. Spend 100Xz the am't that would fix the problem by setting up a buerocracy that lasts forever & the problem is bigger after decades.
> 
> Who do you suppose started the 'track chairs' for wounded vets? Costs the gov't-us-nothing! Certainly was not a liberal.


You missed my point pretty spectacularly.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope now it's a case of information overload you can't know everything !


No, but when someone brings something to you that you have no knowledge of, you can seek out the information at the touch of a finger, so that you become educated and not ignorant to a subject / topic.

Or you can base opinions on ignorance, and make excuses for words and behavior that are solely opinion based and void of all truth!

God Bless America!

ETA: https://www.facebook.com/PAforPTSD?fref=pb&hc_location=profile_browser Look! A link to education!!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> You missed my point pretty spectacularly.


Was it in the post where pedophilia was condoned?


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