# Dairy Bulls



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

What is it about dairy bulls in general and Jersey bulls in particular that have given them their reputation of danger. Specifically what is different about dairy bulls than beef bulls. While I would respect any bull in proximity to myself or my cows, it seems that the warnings hover over dairy breed bulls. Why is this? And what will they do to other livestock? When does that happen? Anyone keep a dairy bull that has information to share about their bull's temperament? I've spoken about this a little bit with some of our members, and have read a bit more and am looking for personal or immediate experience rather than hearsay. Is the Jersey the most infamous? How about Guernsey? Tahnks in advance.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

You are correct all bulls can be and with age become more dangerous. We have had Brown Swiss this bull went from gentle to out of control in about 4 weeks. He was about 5 years old. We had Jersey bulls they go from cute to dangerous almost over night. When we were milking the Holstein bulls seemed to be most predictable. We have beef cattle now the bulls seem calmer. None of our animals are ever pushed or mistreated. We never turn our back on any bull because they are not pets and never will be. Glenn


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm not sure why but I've seen it and it is true. Milking breed bulls almost always get nasty. Those little Jerseys seem the worst but I've seen some really dangerous Holsteins too. The farm I used to milk on though had one Holstein bull that never seemed to get mean. He got so huge though from eating what the girls were eating to make milk that his feet started to give out on him. Also we were starting to worry about the girls! When the cattle hauler came to pick him up they were petrified of him because he was so enormous. My grandfather never kept his Holstein bulls past the age of 3 and they usually didn't get mean before that.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2007)

glenn amolenaar said:


> You are correct all bulls can be and with age become more dangerous. We have had Brown Swiss this bull went from gentle to out of control in about 4 weeks. He was about 5 years old. We had Jersey bulls they go from cute to dangerous almost over night. When we were milking the Holstein bulls seemed to be most predictable. We have beef cattle now the bulls seem calmer. None of our animals are ever pushed or mistreated. We never turn our back on any bull because they are not pets and never will be. Glenn


Because they are bottlefed. They have no fear of humans, and when they hit maturity they treat humans like they would a rival bull.

Here is an article on it.
http://www.acreagehotline.com/articles/acreage_life_articles/aug_05_bottle_raised.cfm


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

If that is the case Randiliana (I'll go check out the link but haven't yet so bear with me in case my question is answered there) a bottle fed beef bull would be just as dangerous? This is interesting since my soon-to-be bull hasn't been raised on a bottle. He's been lucky enough to be raised by his own flesh and blood mother.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Okay my question was answered in the article. They did a study where they bottle raised hereford bull calves and they became dangerous at sexual maturity.


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## Abouttime (Oct 17, 2005)

Thank you Tango for posting this. I am new to farming, have a 6 month old Guernsey/Jersey horned bull named Matthew who was born on this farm, so this is of great interest to me. Since his birth all the neighboring farmers have told me his aggression would be sudden with absolutely no warning. One morning instead of greeting me to be fed, he'd charge me to do bodily harm. So far this has not been the case. I can see him becoming stronger and bigger each month and how his size could increase the danger like any growing animal. Out of conventional caution, one would be advised to be aware. Is the general consensus this prudence is not enough?


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## Abouttime (Oct 17, 2005)

Thank you Randiliana for this article which also says that dairy bulls aggression has more to do with their rearing then their genetics.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2007)

You guys are welcome. Just remember, that ALL bulls can be dangerous, regardless of how they were raised. Never, never turn your back on a bull.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I'm going to say that it is both nature and nurture. Dairy bulls are usually confined in very secure structures made to handle aggresive bulls. Beef bulls often run in pastures with questionable fences. No good beef farmer is going to keep a bull that poses a threat to his family and others.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Tinknal are you saying that breeders have not traditionally given temperament a position in the breeding program regarding dairy bulls? The article linked to suggested that herefords went from fine to dangerous just due to bottle feeding.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Tango said:


> Tinknal are you saying that breeders have not traditionally given temperament a position in the breeding program regarding dairy bulls? The article linked to suggested that herefords went from fine to dangerous just due to bottle feeding.


I'm saying there is a corelation. While bottle feeding may have an effect, having aggresive beef bulls just is too dangerous in most situations.


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## animalfarmer (Feb 14, 2006)

Unless you are breeding,and know what you are doing,why would you want to keep a bull???Most people purchase a bull at a livestock auction or several days old from a dairy farmer because the price is right.These bulls should be fattened on milk replacer for 12 weeks or so and then have their throats cut and be dressed for veal before they can hurt any novice.It may be hard,but I feel that that is the reality of it.


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## Haggis (Mar 11, 2004)

I have a little 7 month old Jersey/Holstein bull, or he was a bull until about 2 o'clock today, I had planned to hold over until this fall for breeding my Jersey cows, but the wee lad tried so often to hook me with his nubbin horns; I finally said "enough is enough". One of my SIL's and my good son held him, and him being too large to band, I cut loose that which made him unpleasant. He was not bottle raised, but I took the time to muck about with him for a while every day; he just got more unpleasant with each passing day. He was destined for the freezer after he serviced my cows, now he'll head for the freezer with the October frosts.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

animalfarmer said:


> Unless you are breeding,and know what you are doing,why would you want to keep a bull???Most people purchase a bull at a livestock auction or several days old from a dairy farmer because the price is right.These bulls should be fattened on milk replacer for 12 weeks or so and then have their throats cut and be dressed for veal before they can hurt any novice.It may be hard,but I feel that that is the reality of it.


Or cut them on the other end....  They buy them because they are excellent beef animals, not because the "price is right".


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## GrannieD (Sep 13, 2003)

I think those of us who grew up on a farm learned early that certain things went with managing livestock...To find out your bull is aggressive when you have to put him in a lot or he is at the neighbors is not the education you will like..A Belgian Blue bull killed his farmer owner & a Charlois almost killed his owner near us & was saved by his dog & the fact he was able to get under the corral fence..It may well have been bad management that caused the porblem..like trying to move a male by himself...You will always have to deal with your bull so learn early...The idea you breed for temperament to make a "safe' bull or ram or buck...is likely to get you hurt!! GrannieD


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## animalfarmer (Feb 14, 2006)

tinknal,I do not agree.It is my opinion,that most who buy one of these animals buy it to produce "excellent beef" as you say,but are motivated by the initial price.When they find out what is involved in castration most think that their bull will be different,but it won't.They then run the very real risk of being hurt.Most would simply be better off investing a little more and buying a steer of heifer to start with.That is my only point.I should have explained more.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

GrannieD said:


> The idea you breed for temperament to make a "safe' bull or ram or buck...is likely to get you hurt!! GrannieD


No, you breed for saftey, you just never assume it. I've never been mauled by a bull, (outside a rodeo arena), but I've been trashed by numerous cows.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Bulls are for the pros.
I would never have a bull on my farm. 
Cows are temperamental enough. 
Even steers can get stupid if you let them.

With all the daughters produced by an AI bull and the ease with which you can improve your herd why on earth would you want one of those things around.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

animalfarmer said:


> tinknal,I do not agree.It is my opinion,that most who buy one of these animals buy it to produce "excellent beef" as you say,but are motivated by the initial price.When they find out what is involved in castration most think that their bull will be different,but it won't.They then run the very real risk of being hurt.Most would simply be better off investing a little more and buying a steer of heifer to start with.That is my only point.I should have explained more.


You're not a farmer are you? Holstein bull calves bring about $200 around here and most of them go into feedlots and get raised to 1300 to 1500 pounds.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

200 bucks?
Where is that? 
this is what I'm looking at where I live


> 45% of the Bull Calves Sold 75.00 - 125.00 per head
> 20% of the Bull Calves Sold 40.00 - 74.00 per head


Corn prices are messing with prices like crazy.
And who in their right mind buys a dairy bull for excellent beef? Good cheap beef maybe but not excellent.


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## Rockin'B (Jan 20, 2006)

animalfarmer said:


> Unless you are breeding,and know what you are doing,why would you want to keep a bull???Most people purchase a bull at a livestock auction or several days old from a dairy farmer because the price is right.These bulls should be fattened on milk replacer for 12 weeks or so and then have their throats cut and be dressed for veal before they can hurt any novice.It may be hard,but I feel that that is the reality of it.


I'd rather cut his nuts than his throat. They make good meat too...just a little older than veal.

JMO


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Abouttime said:


> Thank you Tango for posting this. I am new to farming, have a 6 month old Guernsey/Jersey horned bull named Matthew who was born on this farm, so this is of great interest to me. Since his birth all the neighboring farmers have told me his aggression would be sudden with absolutely no warning. One morning instead of greeting me to be fed, he'd charge me to do bodily harm. So far this has not been the case. I can see him becoming stronger and bigger each month and how his size could increase the danger like any growing animal. Out of conventional caution, one would be advised to be aware. Is the general consensus this prudence is not enough?


Abouttime - His 'normal cow" behavior thus far is due only to his youth. Do not be deluded into thinking he is safe, or ok to be around. As bulls age, they become increasingly likely to snap at any moment.
Keeping a dairy bull on your property puts you, your family, and your neighbors in mortal danger. Unless you are using the animal for a breeding bull, he should be castrated immediately. If you are keeping him for a breeding bull, he should be dehorned immediately, and you should have an industrial strength plank and post or steel corral pen that can hold a mature bull.


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## JulieLou42 (Mar 28, 2005)

The first steer I raised to 16 months was de-balled at about 2 months. He was by his mother's side the whole time, and she weaned at about 8 months. He was 1/2 Saler, 3/8 Guernsey, 18 Red Angus. He was generally mild mannered most of the time, but in his last summer, we carried a stick around him at all times as he seemed to more want to play with us. I don't recollect him ever actually charging us/me. 

This 1/2 Jersey that I've got now from same momma is another story!!! Feisty! Trying to come at me from inside the metal gate when I talk to him. He was castrated at about 2 weeks cuz already he was lots different from the Saler cross. He's always been very energetic, runs with our vehicles along the inside of the fence. Jumps around if you approach the fence. I keep a large stick by each of the 3 gates now and have used it a couple of times when he's come at me. He's beginning to back off when I act mean and talk mean, telling him to do so. He does come up to me to be stroked at times through the gate, and I can put his lead rope on him and tie him to the gatepost. I'm not sure that we're gonna be leading him around by the rope now that he's gotten up to about 800# at 8 months. [Need to measure him again soon...ugh!] He respects the hotwired fence all right! He's still by his mother's side and unweaned...looking for that any day now. Has about 3" horns.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Jersey beef, for those of you with so much cattle experience but apparently little knowledge of dairy, is excellent beef. My Jersey steer who is 9 months old was sold within two weeks of bringing him home from the auction (where alll dairy bull calves I've seen sell go for over $120) by a beef rancher who drove by and saw him in pasture. Holstein bull calves start at $150 and go up to $225 on the farm in my area. Jerseys start at $100 on the farm. Many neighbors here, prefer Jersey beef to beefer beef but they raise beefers for the market. At any rate this is tangential to the original question about dairy bulls. 

Keeping bulls is not for the pros; it is a decision for the serious. I've got an angus bull now but would prefer to breed dairy to dairy instead of dairy to beef as a matter of personal preference. Typically all livestock boards downplay the importance of keeping male stock for breeding. Many people seem to prefer hauling their females in heat, relying on neighboring bulls, or AI. I would choose AI, as I have already said, but it is not available in my area. I have two Jersey cows and one Guernsey heifer. I would like a dairy bull. From the information that has been provided thus far would it be safe to say that a young Jersey bull that has been dehorned, raised with dam or with minimal human interaction, would be relatively fine with my small herd until he reaches 2 years of age? Perhaps a Jersey x Angus raised in a beef herd would be more appropriate?


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## Ralph in N.E.Oh (Sep 14, 2006)

20 years of slaughterhouse and farm experience..the only thing meaner than a Jersey bull is a Jersey-Angus cross. If you only have 3 cows, AI is a better choice. I would breed to a Hereford (young) bull. 

I also agree that Jersey meat is excellant. Some folks don't like the yellow marbleing but I'll take that beta caroteen and all the other "good" stuff.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

sammyd said:


> 200 bucks?
> Where is that?
> this is what I'm looking at where I live
> 
> ...


I didn't say they produce excellent beef, I said they are excellent beef animals.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Julie Lou- You are going to have a fine steer in the freezer with that one.
Given the behavior you describe, I would urge(for your safety) that you establish new rules with him. #1 - Do not pet him, unless you want to do so when he is safely loaded for his final ride to freezerville. #2 - If he gets within 2 feet of your space, bonk him on the nose with a club or baseball bat. Don't knock him out, LOL, just enough so he knows to respect your space.
He is no longer a pet. If he playfully rubs his head on you while running or comes up behind you, catches you off gaurd and mounts you, you could be seriously injured.
Time to change the level of interaction. If he approaches you growl in a low voice at him, and do not allow him within 2 feet of you. He will probably pout like a child and wonder why you are no longer his friend, but he is a big boy now and will get over it.

PS beautiful photos and scenery.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

This business of bottle fed bulls being more dangerous than cow-fed bulls is an interesting academic exercise..
But I look at it this way - You can grow potatoes in sand or you can grow them in a pile of cow manure black dirt. They are still just potatoes.

Regardless of how a dairy Bull is raised - They are a dangerous animal and should be treated as such. From the time they are ten months old until they reach the slaughterhouse - They are ALL Widowmakers.


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## Highland (May 10, 2002)

When I go out tommorow morning to feed my hiefers and "sparky" the jersey bull goes to hanging his tonge out,blowing snot and trowing dirt--- I will be sure to tell him he is NOT to act like that cause he was raised on a cow---- think he will listen?


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## HazyDay (Feb 20, 2007)

sammyd said:


> With all the daughters produced by an AI bull and the ease with which you can improve your herd why on earth would you want one of those things around.


True! I have worked on a dairy farm for years (every summer) and they have a 40 head dariy going. they milk when I feed claves and the bull. They buy nice little cute bulls, that the next summer I come could easly kill me. Bulls that we sweet (fence between use, but has head holes to kill out of. And won't kill you.) In all the years I have worked on a farm. I have never stepped 1 foot into the pen where he lives. There is a hay mow door in that and you have to walk in front of him. I will never go unless he is eatting the feed I throw him. After seeing 7 or 8 bulls in my life time (each having between 3 -6 years life) they are nice and won't hurt you for the first few years. then they become the mean killing machine. 

What ever you do never turn you back on a bull. OR
THINK THAT THE BULL WON'T FIND THE WEAK SPOT. 
I have seen a bull break a hot wire with 2,000 -4,000 volts in it. and try to get to cow in heat. He broke the wire and was about to jump the wooden gate. when I called for help. My uncle came and seen him and got a club and chased him back to the barn. :nono: I was so freaked out. Now I live at home and keep goats. Better to have a 200 pound buck to fight off then a 1,200 pound -2,000 bull! :hobbyhors


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

There is no hired help at amy place and I daily am alone among the beef cattle. IMO, attempting to make a pet out of a large domestic bovine is an invitation to trouble. I am not stating that you should create an attitude of fear either. Rather than an extreme of either, an attitude of mutual existence is much safer. Even when treating a newborn calf, a cow with no respect can and will create a less than safe situation. I have what I refer to "an arms length relation" with my herd. I can an do move around in my herd but the cattle step aside if I get closer than the arms length I referenced above. At the same time, I know I am the intruder to the domain that the bulls reign over. I never "push" the bulls, instead I give them the arms length respect they need. Currently I have 3 Angus and one mixed Angus/Murray Gray bulls.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Highland said:


> When I go out tommorow morning to feed my hiefers and "sparky" the jersey bull goes to hanging his tonge out,blowing snot and trowing dirt--- I will be sure to tell him he is NOT to act like that cause he was raised on a cow---- think he will listen?


Not sure I understand your point. How old is Sparky?


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

UpNorth hit this topic right on the nose...My bottle fed Jerseys and Holsteins all need mental tune-ups via sticks @ around 500lbs. Tomorrow I'm picking up more processed beef from the slaughterhouse because even a sizeable stick couldn't calm that Holstein down.

The funniest part about it is we didn't even need meat in the freezer, he was just a bit to crazy for my place...JUST ALWAYS BE ON GUARD!!!


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Forgot to add, my troublemakers are bottle fed steers, can't imagine what a bottle fed bull would be like...


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Beef Bulls can be every bit as dangerous as dairy bulls. As a Lad I remember my first week on a ranch in Montana. The ranch owner had just put 5 grizzled old beef bulls into a pasture. He said it was time to go check on the bulls.
We climbed into his brand new 1979 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 pickup with a cowcatcher grillgaurd on the front. Dark Forest Green,vinyl green crosscheck bench seat, no air, no radio. I remember it like it was yesterday.
The first reservoir we came to there were two Bulls - A long tall Shaggy Angus with a neck like an Oak Tree and a Big Curly Herford with Horns locked together in a fight to the death. 20 feet they pushed each other back and forth, clouds of dust rolling. 
The rancher said he had to break them up or they would fight till one was dead. He put the pickup in gear and T-Boned the Angus at about ten mph.
The Angus' hind quarters quivered and he staggered a bit. Then right back at the Herford. The pickup backed up, then went back in faster, hit the Herford and knocked him on his side.Knocked the wind out of him. Then back again and hit the Angus that was mauling the downed Herford.
After that they both traipsed off in different directions , tails switching and snorting in protest.
I was never around bulls on that ranch unless I was in a pickup or on a horse.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Tango said:


> Not sure I understand your point. How old is Sparky?



I think his point is his dam raised bull is acting just like like folks say a bottle fed bull would, his bull doesn't know he isn't supposed to act like that. I agree bottle or dam raised, dairy breed bulls are extremely dangerous animals, and nuture has a lot less to do with their temperment than nature. They are going to be mean either way. A person is just as dead from being killed by a dam raised bull as from being killed by a bottle raised bull.


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## Cloverbud (Sep 4, 2006)

ABS, a semen supplier just north of Madison, WI, has a policy that a bull (beef or dairy) is never moved by less than 2 people. Doing so results in unpaid leave. I've heard of dairymen breeding for increased production, but never for temperament (not saying it's not done, just that I haven't heard it discussed.) When the Holstein bull was in the concrete stall, we kids weren't allowed anywhere near that end of the barn, and Grandpa Ernie was never without a pitchfork in hand until the bull left the farm. On the other hand, Grandpa Harry would let us scratch the Hereford bull's head from over the stall wall if he was right there with us.

IMO, you need to watch randy males of any species


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Up North said:


> Beef Bulls can be every bit as dangerous as dairy bulls. As a Lad I remember my first week on a ranch in Montana. The ranch owner had just put 5 grizzled old beef bulls into a pasture. He said it was time to go check on the bulls.
> We climbed into his brand new 1979 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 pickup with a cowcatcher grillgaurd on the front. Dark Forest Green,vinyl green crosscheck bench seat, no air, no radio. I remember it like it was yesterday.
> The first reservoir we came to there were two Bulls - A long tall Shaggy Angus with a neck like an Oak Tree and a Big Curly Herford with Horns locked together in a fight to the death. 20 feet they pushed each other back and forth, clouds of dust rolling.
> The rancher said he had to break them up or they would fight till one was dead. He put the pickup in gear and T-Boned the Angus at about ten mph.
> ...


Where did he come across an angus with horns? Kind of unusual.


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

The thing you need to remember is that all bulls; steers; cows; and heifers are dangerous.

The reason dairy bulls stick out is they are in contact with humans on a daily basis. They will hurt you and they never mean any bad intent. They can push you down and break your leg just from playing a pushing game with you.

While bottle feeding brings this on even a beef breed that was raised by its mother and then feed daily by a human in a small pen will get rough because he does not fear you.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> Where did he come across an angus with horns? Kind of unusual.


LOL, I was wondering that too........I think he was just using that as an expression. A farmer near here was killed recently by what the media called a bull. Not sure what it was that killed him because the media generally couldn't tell a bull from a billy goat. About 20 years back a neighbor was killed by a red angus steer, and a few years before that another neighbor was killed by a dairy cow. With beef cattle I've noticed that English breeds are usually more docile than continental breeds. I've also noticed that horned animals are more aggresive, especially when they are kept with polled animals, as they tend to become the herd alphas.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

john in la said:


> The thing you need to remember is that all bulls; steers; cows; and heifers are dangerous.
> 
> The reason dairy bulls stick out is they are in contact with humans on a daily basis. They will hurt you and they never mean any bad intent. They can push you down and break your leg just from playing a pushing game with you.
> 
> While bottle feeding brings this on even a beef breed that was raised by its mother and then feed daily by a human in a small pen will get rough because he does not fear you.


I've never felt fear from a playfull bovine. All my "ex lax" moments have came about from critters with evil intent.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

The sentence: "A long tall Shaggy Angus with a neck like an Oak Tree and a Big Curly Herford with Horns locked together ..." implies that only the Hereford had horns. The Angus had "a neck like an oak tree." But back in the day when UpNorth was a "lad," heck an Angus might have had three horns back then.... :baby04:


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

tinknal said:


> I've never felt fear from a playfull bovine. All my "ex lax" moments have came about from critters with evil intent.



A ex lax moment may come from evil intents but I can assure you there has been many a farmer hurt from playful pushes.

The point is any bovine can hurt you even tame ones.

I would much rather turn my back on a heifer or cow than a bull any day because a bull can become aggressive on the drop of a dime and hand feed ones are worse.
But on the other hand I would much rather turn my back on a hen than a rooster. Ask my son why I say this. He had a pierced ear before pierced ears were cool from a roster spur when he was a young boy.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

john in la said:


> A ex lax moment may come from evil intents but I can assure you there has been many a farmer hurt from playful pushes.
> .


Oh I understand this.........lol

Actually having worked extensivly with both I'd say horses are more dangerous than cows any day.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

First time I ever had a pet steer was a few years ago. Never had one like him before (and hope to never end up with one like him again, lol). He was cute at first, easy to handle, but when he got bigger....uh boy. I made a few MAJOR mistakes when being around him:
1. I LET him push me with his head a number of times
2. Tried to fend him off when he was in his playful moods, but made the mistake of BACKING OFF when I should've stood my ground after I gave him a clout on the snout...
3. I didn't know it at the time, but I should've established myself as higher in the pecking order than him when he was younger...and established agmantoo's arm-length rule.

See, there's the problem right there...inexperience. I didn't know how to act around this friendly steer, and didn't know about the way to treat him when I was in the same pen with him. Neither did my mom and dad. So, now that I read this on here, and after I read a few others like this on another cattle forum, I have a much better understanding of what to do when I get an over-friendly bottle-fed steer (I assume that he WAS bottlefed) is to carry a stick around...and give a good HARD whap on the nose, not the muzzle, the nose (where it hurts the most), and he'll respect you.

Btw, my great grandpa was killed my a red angus bull...not clear on the story of what caused the bull to react, but I have my theories...

AND I was charged AT by a Charolais bull when I was a little girl (only about 2 at the time)...still remember that, me screaming bloody murder on my high-tailed flight to the house, and the bull in more shock than me because all he wanted was out...AND I was ALSO charged by a black mottled-face steer when my parents were out fixin fence a year or so later...scared the $!%# out of me, lol!!....................and I STILL love my cattle, LOVE being out among them 1000#+ steers!!!

Oh yeah (lol) I got three bulls I have to watch out for now in the corral, right now they're the type that'll have nothing to do with me and take great lengths (and care) to stay the heck out of my way when I'm or anybody else is around. They'll get braver when the snow's gone and the mud's dried up, no doubt, but I'll be ready for them all right, I'll be ready...


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Tango said:


> The sentence: "A long tall Shaggy Angus with a neck like an Oak Tree and a Big Curly Herford with Horns locked together ..." implies that only the Hereford had horns. The Angus had "a neck like an oak tree." But back in the day when UpNorth was a "lad," heck an Angus might have had three horns back then.... :baby04:


Yeah, what she said.
Dip me in Vulture puke and hang me out for the 'yotes cuz I ain't no English Major, LOL.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

I've a few steer calves right now, the oldest is a 9 month old Jersey. None of them show anything in the way of playfulness toward me. They don't fear me and, in my inexperience perhaps, I find that preferable. It is still relatively easy to corner and give them a shot or drench if they need it. They've been bottle fed (except two on nurse Jerseys) but I've encouraged them to be with the herd during the day. They play among themselves, not with me. The only one I will be keeping for longer is the Jersey who will be 18 months before leaving. Neighbor brought over a bale of hay to put in Kash's (2 yr Angus)corral and Kash, for the first time played with the roll while it was on the tractor. I had to get his attention so he would let the man put the hay in the ring. When the hay was down, Kash went to butt heads with it, trying to push it. The neighbor said "he's starting." He said that the playing was a sign of him becoming "mean." That's the word his wife used. I doubt it is an accurate word but it seems to fit in with this discussion. So when does a bull become a "bull?" 2, 3, 4 years?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2007)

A bull becomes a bull when he hits maturity. That is usually less than a year old. Him playing with the bale doesn't mean that he is becoming mean. Heck, our cows will do that. They just see it as something to toss around. Personally, I don't believe that there are very many truly MEAN animals out there. I know there are some as I have had some, but generally cattle are not out to get you. They will do what they can get away with. Cattle are not pets, and treating them as such is what causes many incidents. YOU need to have boundaries, and enforce them. A cow can kill you as easily as a bull, or a steer. Bulls deserve RESPECT, but they also MUST respect YOU. Bulls are also not for the inexperienced. They must KNOW you are top in the pecking order as well. As long as they will move away from you when you ask them to, then you are probably safe enough, but you still must be aware of what is going on. Treat a bull like you would treat a cow with a new calf. You should be able to safely work with him, but you need to be aware of what he is doing at all times!


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

we keep a jersey bull, because we have 10 cows. they can breed at about 7 months and up(experience tells me this). our first one had been played with as a baby( not by us) and it showed. he would attack phone polls knock over 100 gallon water tanks ect. our new one has not been agressive yet, but he is showing signs, but there are cows going into heat that he cant get too. and then again i am miling his current girl friend and he doesnt like it. I keep the pitchfork pointed at him at all times...

that being said, I have been injured by the cows more times. And that is because i keep watch over the bull, and relax a bit arround the cows.

i think the dairy bull thing is like the banty chicken thing...sms...(short man syndrome-they all think they are napolean bonnepart)btw i am short so nobody take offense please


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## Paula (Jun 3, 2002)

Hey Marcia! So glad to see you back!
DH grew up with Jerseys so I asked him if he had any real-life stories about Jersey bulls. He sorta smirked and said "Yeah."
Said his dad was attacked out of the blue by a Jersey bull. First ever sign of aggression out of the bull. He knocked him to the ground and was trying to gore him. He grabbed the horns and made sure he was between them when they hit the ground. Bull kept trying and was wallowing him towards a tree to get a better grip on him. DH's grandfather had to jab a few holes in the bull with a pitchfork before he let loose and ran off. Bull was immediately sold.
DH said he spent quite a few hours in old persimmon trees when he was a teenager because of different Jersey bulls. The bull ran with the cows, and one of the boys would have to go out and bring the cows in for milking. He said the bulls were totally unpredictable - most times they would ignore him, but sometimes they'd get a wild hair and decide they wanted to kill him. He'd get to a tree and get up it and sit and wait while the bull pawed, snorted and slobbered below. He said it'd usually take about an hour for them to lose interest and wander off.
He's been around beef and dairy bulls since, and said the most trustworthy he's seen is the Dexter. Even with the Dexter bulls though, he always knows where the bull is and what he's doing.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Guys,
My advise is to never trust a bull, no matter what the breed or how gentle he seems. That doesn't mean we don't use bulls, we do. I try never to be where I can't make a fast get-a-way when I feed them etc.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Thanks everyone for the great advice and relating your stories. I hope this thread has helped others as much as it has helped me. I do plan on getting a Jersey bull; it is a matter of when not if. The bull calf I was getting will not work out but I will keep looking. I don't believe in not getting an animal merely because of the dangers it will pose. I've kept wild boars, reticulated pythons, Burmese pythons, and anacondas, so a bull is just another potentially lethal animal. I honestly believe that there are ways to listen to animals and communicate. Not that I think I'm some kind of special keeper; anyone can listen. Many people merely find it more convenient to ignore animals thereby excusing a lot of selfish behaviors on our part and a lot of horrific treatment. When AI comes to my area I will be first in line for Jersey and Guernsey semen, but until then, I will keep a bull for my small herd. Thanks again.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Marcia, I think your best bet is to keep a yearling around. Let him get the job done, whack off his little knackers to get his mind off of *** and on to grass, and chose a calf for next years bull.


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## HazyDay (Feb 20, 2007)

Tango said:


> I honestly believe that there are ways to listen to animals and communicate. Not that I think I'm some kind of special keeper; anyone can listen. Many people merely find it more convenient to ignore animals thereby excusing a lot of selfish behaviors on our part and a lot of horrific treatment.


That is true, I know when a cow is going to protect a calf or herself. My uncle would sens me down in the pasture to check the sex of the calf after lunch. I was always told to bring a stick or some-thing (4-wheels don't do good if you can get it started!) So even around cows im not gonna let me gurad down. People just think, it's a cow and shes so claim. So they leave their kids in a pen with her and find the kid dead. Of corse the bull got the blame, but thats why more and more people die from cows. they think only bulls will hurt you. I have seen alot of mean cows. I will never forget number 47 a all black hostien. She was from #5 the only fully black cow. (I can tell you who her mother was! oh yea #19!!) but any ways # 5 was a very nice easy going cow. They let me milk her at 8 (well put the milker on, only old cows were to be milked by us. Even when I was 13 they woulded take their eyes off me.) # 47 was the wildest thing ever. she woulded be milked and the rare time you had to watch out for a foot! And they got fed up with her! And sold her. They guy that came had to put a tag in her ear so people knew where she came from. And it took him over 10 mins just to get it in! 

No matter what animal you have to be careful. The qoute i used was I know my goats! I know there favorite foods and what they are like. I know when a doe will attack another and when some one is gonna get hurt! 

I got my first goats a few years ago and this fall I had a few nubians to be bred. Now we took her for a 45min drive. and she was in a false heat, so i went in the pen with him (a 200 + pound buck) Not knowing what he would do I sat down and let my gurad down! I diddn't get hurt, He just went in and started eatting hay. So I could have been hurt. But I wasn't and now I know not to do that again! :nono:


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

I just sold "Tiny" today. A Holstein bull that was going towards three years old. He'd never been a problem but was getting too big for the new heifers I have coming in. One heifer has a capped hip already and while it may not have been him it probably was. He is the oldest bull I've ever had on the place because mostly I raise them up, let them do some breeding and send them down the road at 14 months or so. I've never seen any aggressiveness with these young bulls, but then I've always known where they were in the barn when I was out there, too.

Jennifer


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

tinknal said:


> Marcia, I think your best bet is to keep a yearling around. Let him get the job done, whack off his little knackers to get his mind off of *** and on to grass, and chose a calf for next years bull.


That's about what I was thinking too, minus the castration. Unless it is feasible with a vet. Bulls bring in just under the same $/ lb as steer calves at the sale. While short, he'd have had a decent life for a dairy bull and that is all I can offer.


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## Mark T (Jan 7, 2003)

I think folks who talked about bottle-feeding and lack of fear hit the nail right on the head. Iâm not sure that a dairy bull is necessarily less dangerous than a beef bull, but on dairy farms the farmer is in much closer contact with his animals than a beef farmer. If the bull is running with the herd, the farmer is in the pen with him more often. The bull loses his wariness from seeing the farmer daily and has many more opportunities to charge.

I would think (and what do I know?) that aggressive bulls out in the pasture are a good thing. Testosterone brings aggressiveness, but it also brings a will to breed. For non-intensive graziers that are only in the field with their animals a few times a month, that aggressive lad will get the girls bred. Production traits â whether beef or dairy would be much more important than temperment even if you did want to breed for temperment.

That said, I suspect that dairy bulls ought to have less aggression in general than the beef breeds â all other things like exposure, early feeding, and whatnot being equal.

The first reason is the widespread use of AI in the dairy industry. In beef animals, the more aggressive animal will breed more cows than a less aggressive animal regardless of production traits â and my impression is that beef folks (in general) are less obsessed with production traits than dairymen who see the results on a daily rather then semi-annual basis. Heck, I know several of my neighbors have their beef hers bred by bull calves they just âmissedâ castrating. 

In dairy, where AI is much more prevalent, the focus on production shifts things away from aggression. If a bull that is less aggressive has good production traits, he will still have many, many offspring because his semen is delivered by a technician.

Secondly, although bull proofs do not include temperment data (except for New Zealand bulls which have a âshed tempermentâ calculation), there is heavy selection for temperment on the cow side of the equation. Feisty cows donât stick around for long unless they have unusually high production. I may be willing to put up with a kicker if she is twenty pounds above the herd average, but if she is average or even slightly higher than average, the daily extra hassle will be enough to put her near the front of the cull line. Iâve also heard dairymen say that they donât like to use particular AI bulls because their calves were unruly. So the more even temperment ought to bleed over from the motherâs side.

Setting aside all this theory, I can relate some practical experience. A couple years ago I ended up buying some angus-cross steers from a dairyman who used an Angus on his heifers. I raised them with some straight Holstein steers with exactly the same care. Bottle-fed, handled daily, moved on a daily basis to a new paddock. The Holsteins got so that they would come up for a scratch or just stand close to me. The Angus x Holsteins didnât want to be touched. They would put up with a hand on their flank, but not more. The only difference was breed. And there wasnât much variation. The most skittish Holstein was still calmer than the tamest cross.

Now, it could be that the heifer-breeding Angus bull was just a mean cuss and passed his cussedness down to his progeny. I only had the sample get of one bull. But that practical experience was totally congruent with the theoretical impact of shed temperment considerations. I really do think that the difference is early handling AND frequent human interaction AND more frequent opportunity to do harm.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Mark T said:


> I really do think that the difference is early handling AND frequent human interaction AND more frequent opportunity to do harm.


What would help your theory is if we knew, or could find data to support, the opportunity to do harm equation. In the days before AI, did dairy farmers and beef farmers both allow their bulls to run with the herd? Very different dynamics between a beef herd and a dairy herd, as you and others hae pointed out. For a beef rancher it would be a question of why not let the bull run with the herd. But for a dairy farmer it would be a hassle twice a day, every day, 365 days a year. With their record-keeping, they would know when their girls were due to be dried up, they would know when they needed to be bred, etc. Why allow the dairy bull to run with the herd? Does anyone know the practice on dairy famrs back when bulls were a necessity?


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## Mark T (Jan 7, 2003)

Tango,

Prior to the GI bill sending farmboy veterans to Ag short courses where they learned about AI, AI was very rare. The AI explosion happens in the late forties. Prior to that, every dairy farm had a bull. The folks I know who use bulls in the valley today (usually graziers who are looking to tighten up calving windows) just have the bulls run with the herd. I'm not sure what the common practice was back in the 20s and 30s, but my grandfather let his bull run with the herd (and almost paid with his life). I'm assuming he was not unusual since back in the day farmers did not want seasonal calving because milk prices varied tremendously.

Even if the dairy bulls were only running with the herd for a short period, it would still be a dangerous period. Compare that to old-style beef cattle management when you let the animals free-range and wouldn't do anything with them except once a year (branding and banding) until it was time to drive them to a railhead. You'd have four year old steers going to market. Talk about wild animals. You wouldn't see grain fattening of cattle on a large-scale basis until after WW II (increasing after Butz was Ag Sec).

So I definitely think (note: think, not know) that the emphasis on being careful with bulls on dairies was a function of handling + interaction + opportunity.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Mark T said:


> So I definitely think (note: think, not know) that the emphasis on being careful with bulls on dairies was a function of handling + interaction + opportunity.


Mark, to make sure I understand, your opinion is that even if it was a short period of exposure to a dairy bull, it was a dangerous period? But no more dangerous than the beef bulls of old when they had to be handled?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tango said:


> Thanks everyone for the great advice and relating your stories. I hope this thread has helped others as much as it has helped me. I do plan on getting a Jersey bull; it is a matter of when not if. The bull calf I was getting will not work out but I will keep looking. I don't believe in not getting an animal merely because of the dangers it will pose. I've kept wild boars, reticulated pythons, Burmese pythons, and anacondas, so a bull is just another potentially lethal animal. I honestly believe that there are ways to listen to animals and communicate. Not that I think I'm some kind of special keeper; anyone can listen. Many people merely find it more convenient to ignore animals thereby excusing a lot of selfish behaviors on our part and a lot of horrific treatment. When AI comes to my area I will be first in line for Jersey and Guernsey semen, but until then, I will keep a bull for my small herd. Thanks again.


By listening and observing animals people can communicate with animals. Most people do not do enough observing. Many animals can be lethal. Farmers have lived for generations by observing their animals and doing what must be done to remain safe before the problem occurs. Those who say animals will attack without warning are those who do not pay enough attention or know the species of animal they own. There are always warnings people just tend to ignore them.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

oh the irony, the last couple of days is when our boy has hit his stride. apx 18 months old, and not fit to be arround anymore, so far I have him bluffed, but its time to pen him or ship him, cant eat him cause we have 2 at the processers already...hopefully we can keep him up and confined until we are ready to breed again...

he was such a mellow fellow, but he sees me as threat because I milk his girlfriends and handle them and such...


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, animals will "warn" you, before attacking, but in the case of a bull that warning may be 3 seconds before the charge. Farmers have kept bulls for years, and farmers have been injured/killed by bulls for years. A good cow dog at your side is a big help when working around a bull. The dog will watch the bull when you can't, and can give you a chance to escape by grabbing a nose or ear when the attack comes.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Pancho, I strongly disagree with your statement.

"Those who say animals will attack without warning are those who do not pay enough attention or know the species of animal they own. There are always warnings people just tend to ignore them."

From a seasoned farmer that is with his animals daily, there is not always a warning. Not even a subtle warning in some instances. Thinking as you stated will get someone killed.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

sammyd said:


> And who in their right mind buys a dairy bull for excellent beef? Good cheap beef maybe but not excellent.


Maybe you've not tried it?? :shrug: Dairy beef can indeed be excellent. It is what my family prefers.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Tango said:


> I have two Jersey cows and one Guernsey heifer. I would like a dairy bull. From the information that has been provided thus far would it be safe to say that a young Jersey bull that has been dehorned, raised with dam or with minimal human interaction, would be relatively fine with my small herd until he reaches 2 years of age?


Tango, since I was 7 years old and we got our first Jersey cow, we have bottle-raised a quality Jersey bull calf every year or two. We do as you describe, use him on the cows then after they calve, use him to resettle them about two months later, then fatten him a bit and put him in the freezer around or before he turns two. This way, we have never had a problem. I don't like AI and want to raise my own bulls. The only Jersey bull we ever had serious trouble with was a 1-1/2 year old bull that we bought from a friend. He tested us at every turn. He went into the freezer as soon as our cows were settled.
This works for us. Thats NOT saying you don't have to watch very carefully a bull at *any* age. They can get pretty pushy before they turn 2. Bulls are *never* to be trusted, no matter their age or disposition. Same with any male animal.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

pancho said:


> Those who say animals will attack without warning are those who do not pay enough attention or know the species of animal they own. There are always warnings people just tend to ignore them.


Yeah, they warn you, but a bulls warning may be 5 seconds before he hits you and you hit the ground. For all intents and purposes, thats without warning.
I listen very closely to my animals and have for 18 years, I do know about body language and such. I keep breeding bulls and breeding bucks. I love them, but I never trust them.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Very interesting about the opinions between there is a warning and there is no warning. Jerzeygurl just posted about the change in her bull. A slight change, not one that cost her life or limb. I've noticed a slight change in my Angus bull this week also. He's two. For the first time I've seen him change toward me, especially when I am messing with his girls. He's gone from being more interested in feed to being more interested in me, when I am handling the Jerseys. As an interesting aside, the same lack of warning is used by people against the keeping of giant snakes. In my personal experience they give plenty of warning. Giant snakes are extremely tolerant, until they snap. But they warn, sometimes for months.... At any rate, the combination of bottle feeding/ close human contact as calves and being in a herd that is twice daily taken away from them seems to be a major factor in the dangers of dairy bulls. Those two factors are not present in the average beef herd.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> Maybe you've not tried it?? Dairy beef can indeed be excellent. It is what my family prefers.


It's all I grow, the caves are cheaper and I know holsteins beter than other breeds. I wouldn't term it as excellent. Although last year I used TendRLean for the first time last year and it was better than normal, pretty close to excellent.

I grew up eating whoever was culled from the milking herd....lots of hamburger and roasts.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

ozark_jewels said:


> Maybe you've not tried it?? :shrug: Dairy beef can indeed be excellent. It is what my family prefers.


Good point. We raised angus cattle for years but the best beef I've ever had came from a 3 yo gurnsey steer that (as dad described) "looked like a racehorse".

We ate it ourselves because dad couldn't stand the thought of selling someone "bad beef".


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

agmantoo said:


> Pancho, I strongly disagree with your statement.
> 
> "Those who say animals will attack without warning are those who do not pay enough attention or know the species of animal they own. There are always warnings people just tend to ignore them."
> 
> From a seasoned farmer that is with his animals daily, there is not always a warning. Not even a subtle warning in some instances. Thinking as you stated will get someone killed.


Not everyone is able to see the warnings. Many people do not bother to notice how an animal can change from day to day. It is the same animal and you have to pay attention to see the difference. Those who do not bother to notice, do not have the experience, or choose to ignore the difference will always be surprised when their animal suddenly changes.
Thinking as I stated will save a life. Paying attention to your animals will never get someone killed. An experienced person will continually be on the lookout for any change in their animals. An experienced person will notice the slight changes in an animal. Those who do not notice the changes have a greater chance of getting hurt.
Notice I didn't say everyone can do this. Many are continually surprised when their animals become sick even though there were symptoms for several days. Some people do not know enough about the animal they raise to know the warnings.
Much like anything else, some are better at it that others. Those who cannot do something cannot understand when someone else can do what they cannot.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

we prefer a jersey for beef, the vet even recomended it, its just that the fat is yellow so its not sold comercially,

generally we use one to breed then eat him, but we are postponing breeding most of the mammas so we arent calving all of them in winter, dont have enough pens to keep him off of everyone unfortunately, the bull pen is the next on the list.


The bull no longer sees me as a human, but as a rival..even tho i am female...
we have several ladies coming in that he cant get to, which doesnt help the situation.

we had a stand off yesterday, he didnt quite cave he just turned his head away and starting eating, if I had turned my back he would have come after me(no honor with bulls)


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2007)

Here is something else to keep in mind about bulls. They will and do act differently towards women and men. I have had bulls that I couldn't do anything with, and yet my husband could safely work with. That bull didn't last long around here....


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

randiliana said:


> Here is something else to keep in mind about bulls. They will and do act differently towards women and men. I have had bulls that I couldn't do anything with, and yet my husband could safely work with. That bull didn't last long around here....



that is true, but i have days that the cows do that too


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

randiliana said:


> Here is something else to keep in mind about bulls. They will and do act differently towards women and men. I have had bulls that I couldn't do anything with, and yet my husband could safely work with. That bull didn't last long around here....


With me it was the opposite. The one Jersey bull we kept for 4 years(never did get mean and we sold him to a dairy for breeding heifers), was just a big baby with all us girls. But the minute he saw Dad.....he would beller. Never did anything more than that but it was a male to male challenge for sure.


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

This is what happens when you mess with a bull.


http://www.rieckesbaysidegallery.com/programfiles/talers/Bull.jpg


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## Tama (Aug 2, 2006)

glenn amolenaar said:


> We had Jersey bulls they go from cute to dangerous almost over night. When we were milking the Holstein bulls seemed to be most predictable.


Yup. Jerseys are the worst. I wouldnt keep a Jersey bull if someone paid me a million bucks. I'm not going to put up with a testosterone run knotthead. Holsteins are very docile so I've seen.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Tama said:


> Yup. Jerseys are the worst. I wouldnt keep a Jersey bull if someone paid me a million bucks. I'm not going to put up with a testosterone run knotthead. Holsteins are very docile so I've seen.


Hmmm, that depends. We have had docile Jerseys and I've worked around a couple of killer holstiens.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

Tango said:


> Very interesting about the opinions between there is a warning and there is no warning. Jerzeygurl just posted about the change in her bull. A slight change, not one that cost her life or limb.


actually if there hadnt been a 2x4 there i might be a grease spot, I was out there to catch a houdini calf before the murderous horses got it.

one day he was intimidated by me the next day he wasnt, thats how it goes, and if your out in the middle of the field with no escape route...running is a bad idea, turning your back is too...


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Jerseygurl, 
Do you notice a "bully twang" in the meat you're eating after letting the bull get big enough to breed your ladies before having him slaughtered? I've been told the meat will get pretty stout after a young bull gets his testosterone level higher. Also, I'm interested to know more about the yellowish color in the fat. I don't remember this as a kid. And Jersey bottle bull calf was all the meat we had.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

all we ate was bull growing up, and now as well, we dont castrate them even if they are raised only for beef,

there is NO twang, I would notice, cant stand buck deer or the like, yes the fat is yellow, tastes good tho, we usually try to butcher them by 2 years old.

the one we are using is now 20 months, he has 4 month old offspring...so the testosterone comes in very young with them.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Johin LA - Dramatic Footage of Bull Attack. Those hounds being thrown about like ragdolls could easily be a human...Especially that unwise soul making the shadow in lower pic.
Them Bulls have so much power in their necks.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

francismilker said:


> Do you notice a "bully twang" in the meat you're eating after letting the bull get big enough to breed your ladies before having him slaughtered? I've been told the meat will get pretty stout after a young bull gets his testosterone level higher.


Not a bit of it. Practically all we eat is Jersey bulls who have been used for two seasons then butchered. Delicious.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

About 10 years ago a Holstein bull got loose at the sales barn here. Went through a concrete block wall to get out of the pen he was in then headed for the highway, put a (moving) Honda Civic on it's side in the ditch and went across the fields a couple of miles. Eventually they tracked it down and shot it. 
Apparently it was quite a ride for the driver of the Civic.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

dh went out to see what bully boy would do to him, bully turned tail like "got no problem with you mr."  

when dh left I went to pet one of the cows, and he started right back in, he sees me as a rival


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

jerzeygurl said:


> when dh left I went to pet one of the cows, and he started right back in, he sees me as a rival


...Jerseygurl...
That'un needs a new home - in an Oscar Meyer Ring Bologna I'm thinkin'...or here's a place for him - :spam: ...LOL


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## Muskrat (Sep 4, 2005)

I think part of the problem with bulls (and male animals in general  ) is not so much inherent viciousness as lousy impulse control. Those are his cows and you made a step in their direction, or he just has to prove he's the biggest and the baddest, that kind of thing.

One of the nicest bulls I ever had went ballistic one morning and if I hadn't seen what happened I would have shot him then and there. It was a very cold morning and we were feeding from a small pickup. The bull was standing there and he, for whatever reason, licked the bed of the truck, something I've discovered cattle do with disconcerting frequency. As I said, it was very cold. His tongue stuck to the cold metal and when he jerked away, the hide stayed with the metal. When he got finished with that truck, it looked as if a bomb had exploded. Had I not seen, I would have thought he had just gone wild.

Another factor is just that they're so big, they don't always know what all parts of their bodies are doing. A dog darts around behind them, they'll kick because they don't know what he's doing back there. That you were the nearest thing to the hoof isn't their fault. Or they'll crush you against the wall when they're just rubbing an itch and didn't realize you were there.

The 'meanest' bulls we've ever had were Jersey bulls. Perhaps they have the same kind of emotional instability that makes some Jersey cows 'nervous'. I don't know about that. I don't think it's entirely dairy versus beef though. My Guernsey bulls tend towards the nice side. The Highlands are predictably unpredictable, but seem less inclined towards sudden inexplicable outbursts. The one purebred Hereford we've had was very nice, lived his life in the field with any number of happily satisfied ladies, and bundles of calves without incident that I can remember. The one purebred Charolais we had was born mean, and during his short life came way too close and was one of the few animals my mother ever said should be shot. The Angus have been a mixed lot, some good, some bad.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

Our angus we had was very sweet, but got to where he did NOT respect fences, and could jump a 6 ft chainlink fence like it was nothing

parent had a brangus when i was a kid, he was very sweet too, but when dad built new fence, the feller just layed down between each new fence post and layed the fence on the ground, he soon left after that...


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## doohap (Feb 23, 2003)

Up North said:


> Beef Bulls can be every bit as dangerous as dairy bulls. ...


I've watched two brangus bulls in the pastures behind our place ... pushed around on each other ALL day ... looking through binoculars I could see both had bloody foreheads ... they'd take breathers ... a few seconds here ... maybe a minute there ... but they never really gave up. I stayed on our property and at a safe distance from the fenced pasture. My momma didn't raise no fool!


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

yes our neighbors bull got in with ours once, his was older and twice the size of ours, but he would not give up, dh had to break them up, didnt want that huge thing on our cows.... he finally cornered it and shut the head gate on it and kept it there till they came and got it..


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