# How can you tell....



## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

if you have a free martin? Anyone here who can tell if a cow is a free martin by looking at her? Just wondering... I have one who, not that I think she is, but when I bought her she had another cow in with her. Same age, same coloring, that was supposed to be sold to me as well but mysteriously dissappeared the day I went to buy them... I bought them from a good friend who buys all the cows around here and exports. This girl is a holstein/angus cross. Any cow that looks like it has milk cow in them doesn't bring a good price when exporting. So I ended up with her. I plan on breeding in July. Just hoping that I don't have a free martin...that would be just my luck. :grumble:


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## dairymon (Jan 30, 2010)

Have vet check or breeder palpat. They can tell you.

If she is, freezer time and try again.

Good Luck and fingers crossed


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

No vet check here. I do everything without a vet. How can you tell by palpating? Will they go into heat if they are a free martin? I know they are sterile, but will they have a heat?


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## dairymon (Jan 30, 2010)

By palpating you are looking for reproductive organs, this is a preliminary check because some freemartins may seem to be ok (everything as it should be). The only true test is a genetic test for the Y-chromosone in white blood cells.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Is there a reason why you think she might be free-martin? It is fairly rare. The ones I've seen tend to look more like a steer than a heifer. I've read where you can test by inserting a pipette into the vagina. If it goes in more than 6 inches then she is not a free martin.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

they are sure not rare here, but then again we are in the world of dairy mega farms. they run day old bull calf auctions 6 days a week in several places here, and usually there are a couple free martins a day run through.
also, DH friend who milks 50 or 60 holsteins had 2 free martins last year.
must be a holstein thing.


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## NeHomesteader (May 27, 2003)

You would have to reach in and see if she has any ovaries or a cervix. Has she come into heat that you have noticed?


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## dairymon (Jan 30, 2010)

Not only a Holstein thing, have had Jersey also....its being a twin and genetics. Not all females from male/female combos are freemartins it depends on the Y-Chromosome.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

From age 1 day to 30 days a freemartin probe is used. After 30 days old a blood test is your only choice. If you are questioning her then get a blood test preformed, much cheaper than feeding her....Topside


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## whatknott (Apr 27, 2008)

I often buy free martens for our petting zoo; before I sell them, i usually have them tested by my vet. They are usually around 600 pounds when he does them. He puts a latex glove on and does a rectal exam - guess anyone could do it as long as you know what you're feeling. They usually don't have a uterus, and that's why the freemartin probe works when they are young.
The jersey free marten that I have right now has a thicker head on her like a steer - I noticed that with the last holstein free marten too.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

I *think*she may have had a heat. A younger angus calf was running around sniffing her rear end all day one day and lifting her lip. But the other older bred cow paid no attention to her. She wasn't especially vocal though. She is about 10 months old now.

I was just afraid that she might be....she looks a little steerish to me and has a shorter vulva lengthwise, maybe because she is younger? I am going to post pics....


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

Here are some pics of the cow I was talking about...


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## NeHomesteader (May 27, 2003)

I would just watch for her to cycle. She will do it every 18 to 21 days. We had one this year that my husband questioned because she hadn't cycled but he got her in and checked her and within 3 days she was in heat. Some of them are just later coming in then others. He does alot of AI'ing for others and we have 52 cows so he can tell by feel. Hope this helps.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

A freemartin is genetically female, but has many characteristics of a male. The ovaries of the freemartin do not develop correctly, and they remain very small. Also, the ovaries of a freemartin do not produce the hormones necessary to induce the behavioral signs of heat. The external vulvar region can range from a very normal looking female to a female that appears to be male. Usually, the vulva is normal except that in some animals an enlarged clitoris and large tufts of vulvar hair exist.


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## BlackWillowFarm (Mar 24, 2008)

We just put our freemartin Jersey in the freezer. She was 16 months old. The meat is tender and tasty. She was grass/hay fed and got about 2 lbs of grain a day for most of her life.


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## whatknott (Apr 27, 2008)

She looks kind of small for 10 months but there isn't anything in the photos to have a good comparison. If she was a twin, she would have been smaller to start with. Most of my hostein free martens weigh 55 pounds when I buy them at auctions. Do you know how much she weighed? But being part angus, she may be shorter than a holstein too..


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Carla, I will second your opinion....Jersey meat is some kind of special....Topside


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

topside1 said:


> A freemartin is genetically female, but has many characteristics of a male. The ovaries of the freemartin do not develop correctly, and they remain very small. Also, the ovaries of a freemartin do not produce the hormones necessary to induce the behavioral signs of heat. The external vulvar region can range from a very normal looking female to a female that appears to be male. Usually, the vulva is normal except that in some animals an enlarged clitoris and large tufts of vulvar hair exist.


Ok, I have no idea what an enlarged clitoris would look like on a cow or where to look in the first place. She does look to me like she has a large tuft of hair on the bottom of the vulva. My other two cows don't have this.



BlackWillowFarm said:


> We just put our freemartin Jersey in the freezer. She was 16 months old. The meat is tender and tasty. She was grass/hay fed and got about 2 lbs of grain a day for most of her life.


Well, at least I know it won't be a total loss!!!  If she turns out to be a freemartin I will be very happy to put her in the freezer!! mmmmm!



whatknott said:


> She looks kind of small for 10 months but there isn't anything in the photos to have a good comparison. If she was a twin, she would have been smaller to start with. Most of my hostein free martens weigh 55 pounds when I buy them at auctions. Do you know how much she weighed? But being part angus, she may be shorter than a holstein too..


She is standing next to a 7 month old full bred Angus heifer...you can barely see her head in the side shot. She weighed 410 Ibs when I got her at 6-7 months. She is definantly bigger now... Her back is about 46 inches tall


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Her head does look a bit masculine to me.


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## Shoupie (Mar 21, 2009)

She looks pretty normal to me, most beef cattle have a tuft of hair like that at the end of their vulva. Free martins look like steers usually its fairly easy to spot a free martin when compared to a heifer. They usually have an extremely hairy vulva and are thick and masculine through their neck. She looks normal though but not anything special I wouldn't have any reservations about sending her to freezer camp to avoid feeding something that might be unbreedable.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

You are never going to be able to tell whether it is a freemartin by looking at it. Vulval hair is apros of nothing - while freemartins may have more of it, so do many calves which are not freemartins. And that calf has very little vulval hair in comparison to the calves that I'm presently rearing. And of course she could look thicker through the head and neck, she's got Angus in her and she looks like she does.

If you really want to know, get her checked out by a vet. It's all very well to say you do everything without a vet but that's not much chop if you don't know what it is your doing.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Refer to post #9, bloodtest is the only true method that works. Topside


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm with Topside, get a bloodtest. 

If you insist on not using a vet, then get online and get a tailbleeding kit to send off to the lab. There's do-it-yourself instructions on the website. 

Otherwise, keep her until July when you planned on breeding and see what happens. Have you noticed her cycling (riding other cattle) or seen a bull showing extreme interest in her. I've had a freemartin before though that would ride other cows. She was a good heat detector. I just never seen other cows riding her and the bull never did fancy her too much. She eventually went down the road.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I think I am good at telling a freemartin just by looking........take a picture of her udder from behind with the sun lighting.......with tail out of the way..


..they sell 4 freematins to every 100 dairy heifers at sulphur springs TX...

..BTW ....something no body else has commited on

you said she was a HOLSTIEN/ANGUS CROSS....that she is not...angus crosses will not have horns....she has the jaw of a jersey....the color and shape of a holstien.....I bet she is a jersey/holstien cross...she is a good looking heifer to me...... why also she is not so big for 10 months old


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

YES SOME WILL...EVEN THE BULL WILL MOUNT.....AND SOME WITH A close to normal uterus and one overy will get pregant but not carry to term...




desertshi said:


> No vet check here. I do everything without a vet. How can you tell by palpating? Will they go into heat if they are a free martin? I know they are sterile, but will they have a heat?


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I also think her size has something to do with your area MEXICO.....i was all over that place never saw a real big cow just not enough feed there


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

myersfarm said:


> ..BTW ....something no body else has commited on
> 
> you said she was a HOLSTIEN/ANGUS CROSS....that she is not...a*Angus crosses will not have horns*....she has the jaw of a jersey....the color and shape of a holstien.....I bet she is a jersey/holstien cross...she is a good looking heifer to me...... why also she is not so big for 10 months old


A very good point Myers and one that I should have been awake to.:grin: However, I cannot see much Jersey in that animal at all other than a slightly reddy tinge in her coat and even that is a bit vague, and perhaps slightly lighter boned. I would expect to see it in the muzzle, the backbone, the top of the tail, the ears but there is nothing - and the Jersey will usually out. But then again, that doesn't always follow either. I have a very delicate Jersey/Friesian cross, jet black with nothing other than her bone structure to show what she may have in her.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

All I see is dairy animal that may being carrying a parasite burden. Look at the coarse hair coat and the under jaw protrusion. To me I would not think she is old enough to cycle based on size and condition for a predominantly holstein breed.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I see the jersey jaw line....it could be she is a 3/4 holstien and 1/4 jersey.....but she has to be from a jersey somewere to me...with the DAIRY HORNS....


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

Shoupie said:


> She looks pretty normal to me, most beef cattle have a tuft of hair like that at the end of their vulva. Free martins look like steers usually its fairly easy to spot a free martin when compared to a heifer. They usually have an extremely hairy vulva and are thick and masculine through their neck. She looks normal though but not anything special I wouldn't have any reservations about sending her to freezer camp to avoid feeding something that might be unbreedable.


I think that I would want to raise her to about the age when she should be breedable anyways, so maybe we'll just see when we get to July. I wouldn't have any reservations whatsoever putting her in the freezer! Yuummy!!



Ronney said:


> You are never going to be able to tell whether it is a freemartin by looking at it. Vulval hair is apros of nothing - while freemartins may have more of it, so do many calves which are not freemartins. And that calf has very little vulval hair in comparison to the calves that I'm presently rearing. And of course she could look thicker through the head and neck, she's got Angus in her and she looks like she does.
> 
> If you really want to know, get her checked out by a vet. It's all very well to say you do everything without a vet but that's not much chop if you don't know what it is your doing.
> 
> ...


I don't go to a vet because I don't trust them here. I know more than the people who get away with saying that they are vets here. I had one inject medicine into the vein of a cow who, I later found out didn't need it, and he killed her. The medicine had been sitting in a tool box in the back of his truck in August for who knows how long. Within 15 minutes her udder was purple and another 5 and she was dead. Hearing stories around town later on, I found I wasn't the only one....This is why I don't go to the vets. Not because I don't want to. In the US, I would in a heartbeat! :cowboy:



myersfarm said:


> I think I am good at telling a freemartin just by looking........take a picture of her udder from behind with the sun lighting.......with tail out of the way..
> 
> 
> ..they sell 4 freematins to every 100 dairy heifers at sulphur springs TX...
> ...


There is no way she is crossed with Jersey. Believe me, I have been trying to get my hands on a Jersey for 2 years. There aren't any around here close by. Why wouldn't she have horns though? My registered pure-bred holstein had horns...

I might have a tough time getting a good pic. She is pretty leary of me. We have to dally her when we deworm!! 



myersfarm said:


> I also think her size has something to do with your area MEXICO.....i was all over that place never saw a real big cow just not enough feed there


I don't know how well she was fed in her previous home. Alot of people just free range in the hills where there is a whole bunch of dryed out brown desert grass. I grind up and make my own feed though. I think her size actually might be due to the angus in her though. 
My holstein was a TANK. I am 5' 7" and her back came up to my mouth, her head was as big as my torso and she was like 7 or 8 feet long!!! She was HUGE!!


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

if she was crossed with a angus....she would not have horns no matter what the other breed would be.....they a polled and off spring are polled.... bred to a horned cow they will still be POLLED.....no horns....I raise dairy heifers will post some pictures of my calfs and they all have horns........if they do not have horns they are 1/2 price......not saying your girl could not be crossed with a long horn or corette......but i see the jersey jaw...will see if I can find one or take one of the same angle......


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

my jersey SARA can you see the same jaw line


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

ive used an angus bull on my dairy stock one year....all calves had horns but one....

now ive always understood free martains can have heat cycles....just keep goin in and not taking....


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

desertshi said:


> I don't go to a vet because I don't trust them here. I know more than the people who get away with saying that they are vets here. I had one inject medicine into the vein of a cow who, I later found out didn't need it, and he killed her. The medicine had been sitting in a tool box in the back of his truck in August for who knows how long. Within 15 minutes her udder was purple and another 5 and she was dead. Hearing stories around town later on, I found I wasn't the only one....This is why I don't go to the vets. Not because I don't want to. In the US, I would in a heartbeat! :cowboy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

AS I have stated I can look at freemartin and tell if she is a freemartin.. this is pretty easy to tell for me at 300 pound size.......
......never have I said I can look at and tell she will bred..
..running around online ...
.seems like I got a figure of 2 % of 2 year old heifers of any bred will not bred.......this is not pick out 20 from your heifer crop and not 2% will bred...this is take your whole heifer crop for the year and you will have 2% that will not bred for some reason


and the blood test will tell if she is a freemartin it will not tell if she will bred..


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Ronney I agree just because a bull is stocky and black ...he is a angus....does not make it so....black limousin almost all have scurs....and have seen them on Brangus ...



.but Horns never seen them or heard of them on anugus tell this thread heard of scurs never horns


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

the bull had no horns or scurs, one offspring was polled the rest had horns,


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## NeHomesteader (May 27, 2003)

I disagree with the blood test. When you check them inside they will not have the reproductive tract. So it is something you can feel for. Also,once in awhile angus do have horns. We have ranched all our life and you see these things. When people brand they just burn their horns so you never see them.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

hmmm i had a suspect one preg checked and asked if she was a free martain.... vet couldnt tell me...tho he did say she was not pregnant...she still isnt i dont think and will be juicy burger soon.

free martains will come into heat, so must have some organs, i just always thought that the wash of male hormones in the womb of the free martains mother and male twin rendered the organs useless???? that was my understanding


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

JG, you are right. The freemartin has hormonal deficiencies which render the ovaries sterile, not physical deficienies. In other words, she will have all the right bits.

This thread has prompted me to go back and research the information that I had long forgotten on this condition as it seems to me to be a lot of old wives tales and mis-information on it.

The blood vessels in the chorians become interconnected which allows the blood to flow around both twins. The male hormones masculanise the female calf creating what we call the freemartin. Sometimes this fusion in the chorians doesn't occur and although figures vary, between 5% and 10% of female calves born out of a male/female twinning will be fertile. It can also affect the bull calf in that he may have smaller testicles and therefore diminished fertility.

Many, but not all, freemartins have a shortened vagina but this is by no means conclusive. If in doubt, have the blood test done.

Many years ago I was given a tiny little Friesian calf at a point in calving when farmers were keeping their AI heifer calves as replacements. It struck me as odd that this one should be given away. By 3 years of age she still hadn't calved and as were moving 600kms I wasn't into paying for the trucking of a useless cow. I was going to works her but at the last minute got the vet out to do bloods and physical examination. Lucky I did as she was in calf. We waived the bloods but the vet was 99% certain that she was a freemartin which is why she had been given to me. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Ronney you said ... not physical deficienies... I just do not understand that....BY the vet some ovaries will be small like a walnut... some will not even be able to find them uterios will be short by rings


by me looking even me looking at 3 days old...they never delope a udder...they have BULL TEATS short FLAT..... even at 1600 lbs and fat ready to kill...will not have a udder it just does not get big neither will the teats get round and full why I call them BULL TEATS


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Myers, the earlier in pregnancy that the interconnection of the chorian blood vessels occur, the more masculine the heifer calf will be, so yes, in some cases the masculinity of the heifer calf will be very pronounced as you have seen. The small ovaries, lack of udder etc. could be seen as a physical defect but it has been caused by hormonal inbalance and even if the ovaries were normal in size there would be a 90% chance of them being sterile.

The problem for most people are the calves that are born in the mid-range group that are not obviously freemartins and this would probably account for a large number of them, and those at the top end of the scale such as the one that I had where the only indication that she may have been a twin was her extremely small size and her seeming inability to become pregnant.

So there are degrees of freemartinism (is that a word?) depending on what went on in the uterus and when, and unless it is patently obvious that the calf is a freemartin, the only way to confirm it will be blood tests.

I suppose I've made that as clear as mud

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Ronney unless it is patently obvious that the calf is a freemartin, the only way to confirm it will be blood tests.


...the freemartin probe will tell if it is a FREEMARTIN with a short uterus 100% of the time...some people want the freemartin probe to be 100% she will bred if she passes that does not work......why it is called a freemartin probe and not a breeding heifer probe......I use it to CULL out the short uterus calfs as does the sale barn.....
....never heard of a calf that fails the fremartin probe go on to bred or be passed by a dairy vet looking for freematins...


...now your old country vet that has very little experence with freemartins will some times tell you she is in the 1nd stage and she might be but later lose the calf....

I think a blood test has its place.....but even if they pass the blood test and not a freemartin...still does not mean they will bred.....


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Ronney I have also ran on to the people that say she is not a twin....and never count that the cow could lose the bull calf before birth or the ones that the bull calf is never found on the other side of fence.....they just do not believe either one could happen to make there little 30 pound heifer a freemartin


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