# The electric compnay called the other day...



## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

A funny thing happened the other day. I got a call from the electric company that said they see that I have a solar electric system and am backfeeding into the grid illegally and need to either fill out the agreement or shut the system off or they will disconnect me. They said I am making my meter spin backwards.

I called them up and said that would be a neat trick since my system isn't connected to the grid. I said they can come out and have a look at it any time they want to. They scheduled for the following day.

Well the supervisor and a lady came out for a visit. I got to give them a good education of a stand alone solar system and how it works HAHA!! They were really nice and asked a lot of questions because they had never seen one before.

We ran different loads and watched the battery voltage go up and down. I asked how is it spinning my meter backwards and who said it was? He said no one saw the meter going backwards it's just that the power software that reads the meter every day couldn't figure out my usage and was trying to estimate the usage. He said this is the first sign of power theft which they have a big problem with. So someone investigates and sees the panels and thinks I am backfeeding.

Well on sunny days most all of my power comes from the panels. Then on not so sunny days it comes from the grid so that was confusing the computer which looks for steady usage. Seems like they need to tweak that software LOL!!


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Life's good anytime you can screw around with the power company ! :grin:


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yep, I agree. Mine spun backwards this month to the tune of minus 17 bucks.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

And they are the educated ones.
As you know if you try to "back feed" the incoming pwr with non synchronized voltage you will be the first on to know because of the electrical fire and possible explosion.

My guess it the elec co. is upset because you stopped using as much electric as you used to use and they want to snoop to collect info to create a law to help compensate their loss.
Don't laugh it may be comming.
jim


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Why is it automatically assumed that the power company is the Evil Empire? Yes, I agree, nobody wants to pay what they charge. Yes, they have a large bureaucracy and all the downfalls of that.

If they're so Eeeevviiillleee, just cut the line, and don't use their power.

I can see the humor in the OP's post. I can also see that the power company is successfully monitoring their system and finding problem areas. Power theft is dangerous, as well as being... theft. Backfeeding improperly has killed lineman in the past. Yes, they jumped to a conclusion without proper research, but if you've been on this forum for a while, or other alternative energy sites, you'll have heard of many people connecting up systems without proper safety disconnects or authorization. Just like the credit card fraud prevention... sometimes it bites you in the backside, but I still want that protection to be used on my CC anyway. Their monitoring may be flawed, but it helps them discover problems with the system.

I guess I'm just getting fed up with all the bashing of these evil companies that have all these Machiavellian plots to steal your money and take over your life. Maybe I just need more caffeine this morning.

Michael


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

artificer said:


> Why is it automatically assumed that the power company is the Evil Empire? Yes, I agree, nobody wants to pay what they charge. Yes, they have a large bureaucracy and all the downfalls of that.
> 
> If they're so Eeeevviiillleee, just cut the line, and don't use their power.
> 
> ...



:clap:

I totally agree!

Why is it that any time someone owes money the entity they owe it to is "Evil" or "Bad". I see this with car loans and creditt cards. HELLO. No one forced you to get a new car or to charge those things. You are not powerless when it comes to your money. 

As for the power company....I'd be happy they were checking these things out. First of all, the software is working right. My DH writes software for the utility industry and he said that when the algorythm is off it sends up a notice. For accounting and safety purposes, they have to check it out. If someone is stealing electricity, who do you think really pays for it? WE DO. They can't just say 'sorry' and eat the costs. Everyone hates fraud. The electric company is no different. They also have to worry about their linemen. If you want a very dangerous job, this is it! Every year there's something like 6-8 linemen KILLED on the job. Sometimes it's because some idiot hooked up illegally and the backflow zaps the lineman. If there's a break in the algorythm they owe it to their workers to check it out. It literally is a matter of life and death.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

artificer said:


> Why is it automatically assumed that the power company is the Evil Empire? Yes, I agree, nobody wants to pay what they charge. Yes, they have a large bureaucracy and all the downfalls of that.
> 
> If they're so Eeeevviiillleee, *just cut the line, and don't use their power.*
> 
> ...


Be very careful if you choose to do that.. In many places if you don't have a power connection, the State/city/township can/will condemn your home.. Yes I was born in Amish country and have seen the battles over this for many years. I know that a lot of "holier then thou's" consider any home without electricity from the power company a condemnation and they will and have condemned perfectly good homes because of this...


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

It's as much as safety issue as it is a money issue.
If your system is grid-tied, and there is an outage, unless you have an automated disconnect switch, the linesman coming out to work on the lines could get electrocuted not knowing that you had power from your panels still going into the grid.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Energy Rebel said:


> It's as much as safety issue as it is a money issue.
> If your system is grid-tied, and there is an outage, unless you have an automated disconnect switch, the linesman coming out to work on the lines could get electrocuted not knowing that you had power from your panels still going into the grid.


That is understandable if you are grid tied! But I would also be watching the rate that the elec. co. is charging me. I would hazard a guess and say it would go up, since you're using less of their energy...


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Energy Rebel said:


> It's as much as safety issue as it is a money issue.
> If your system is grid-tied, and there is an outage, unless you have an automated disconnect switch, the linesman coming out to work on the lines could get electrocuted not knowing that you had power from your panels still going into the grid.


Ive also heard SOP is they ground the lines anytime they work on em?


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> Ive also heard SOP is they ground the lines anytime they work on em?


I've wondered about that too -- seems like they would have some way to protect themselves. 
Not that its a bad idea to have the grid-tie systems go down automatically as extra protection.

Gary


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

That's true, but sometimes strange things do happen.
A few years back, we had a line a few hundred feet from our house go down in a storm.
When the power came on, we lost a tv, microwave , phone and probably more if I hadn't run all over the house unplugging things.
When I got to my voltmeter and starting checking, I had 220v coming thru all my 110v outlets.
I called Duke power and they couldn't get off the phone fast enough to warn the guys out working the lines.
Apparently, a power line was touching a neutral somewhere (pole or transformer).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineman_(occupation)

Hmmmmm.......link doesn't work, but this is from the article.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv



Duties

See also: Hot stick and Live-line working


Lineman replacing a transformer, wearing protective gear, including rubber gloves and sleeves
Power linemen can work on either electrically energized (live) or de-energized (dead) power lines. When working with energized power lines, linemen must use protection to eliminate any contact with the energized line. Some distribution-level voltages can be worked using rubber gloves. The limit of how high a voltage can be worked using rubber gloves varies from company to company according to different safety standards (often negotiated in the union contract) and local laws. Voltages higher than those that can be worked using gloves are worked with special sticks known as hot-line tools or hot sticks, with which power lines can be safely handled from a distance. Linemen must also wear special rubber insulating gear when working with live wires to protect against any accidental contact with the wire. The buckets linemen sometimes work from are also insulated with fiberglass.
Even de-energized power lines can be hazardous, owing to the complex nature of the electrical system. Even though one circuit may be ostensibly shut off, that circuit may still be conducting electricity from an interconnection or interaction with other live circuits. Thus, care must be taken to ensure that all possible sources of power to a circuit are removed. This can be especially dangerous when transformers are involved in the connection to another circuit, or one circuit is fed by more than one other circuit. For example: A higher-voltage distribution level circuit may feed several lower-voltage distribution circuits, using step down transformers. A step down transformer can also act in reverse as a step up transformer. If the higher voltage circuit is de-energized so it can be worked on, but any one of the lower-voltage circuits connected to it via a transformer remains energized, the transformer will convert the power in the lower-voltage circuit back to the higher voltage, and the higher voltage circuit will remain energized. This rarely[1] occurs after destructive storms such as hurricanes have damaged the local primary lines and someone wires a generator into their house wiring incorrectly (without an isolation switch). This is known as backfeed. Another problem can arise when de-energized wires become energized through electrostatic or electromagnetic induction from energized wires in close proximity. One precaution against this is to connect all the wires in a circuit to each other and to ground before working on it, hence the saying, "if it's not grounded, it's not dead."


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Our system is a battery based wind and solar electric system with grid used as the back up, since the place was grid connected when we bought it. The local utility sometimes call us in the winter if we haven't used power in a day or two, to make sure we are okay. When I mention the solar and wind, they go check their records and come back and tell me, everything is okay, sorry to bother you. But it is interesting to know that they are monitoring use in winter and checking to see that the people are okay.


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

trkarl said:


> A funny thing happened the other day. I got a call from the electric company that said they see that I have a solar electric system and am backfeeding into the grid illegally and need to either fill out the agreement or shut the system off or they will disconnect me. They said I am making my meter spin backwards.
> 
> I called them up and said that would be a neat trick since my system isn't connected to the grid. I said they can come out and have a look at it any time they want to. They scheduled for the following day.
> 
> ...


In the beginning , you stated to the elec. co. that you are not connected to the grid , while at the end you stated just the oppisite. I suggest that you are if your getting any power whatsoever from the grid. That is a grid tie, and if it was not inspected - installed - and permitted from the utility co., you could a. burn your house down or b. kill someone working on the lines, especially in a power outage.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

There's grid tied systems and there are battery back up systems. To me it sounds like the op has a battery back up system. 

In Ohio you can legally tie into the system as long as the electric co inspects and approves the connection. 

In this county the board of health will condemn your house if you are not tied to the electric system and if you don't have running water and someone is living in the house.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> There's grid tied systems and there are battery back up systems. To me it sounds like the op has a battery back up system.
> 
> In Ohio you can legally tie into the system as long as the electric co inspects and approves the connection.
> 
> *In this county the board of health will condemn your house if you are not tied to the electric system and if you don't have running water and someone is living in the house.*


Same thing here!

But then they are the same idiots who keep telling us to use less or to use solar. So we know who is greasing their palms.. and it ain't freedom loving folks...


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## swampyoaks (Jan 6, 2008)

I guess I should be expecting a call from the power company soon. I just put up my panels right above the utility meter so the reader can see them real easy. I'm connected to the grid but not *"grid tied" *as the output of my inverter isn't connected to the grid through a closed circuit and in phase with grid, thus it can't feed power back in to the grid.


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## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

nadja said:


> In the beginning , you stated to the elec. co. that you are not connected to the grid , while at the end you stated just the oppisite. I suggest that you are if your getting any power whatsoever from the grid. That is a grid tie, and if it was not inspected - installed - and permitted from the utility co., you could a. burn your house down or b. kill someone working on the lines, especially in a power outage.


Did you even read what you quoted me as saying? I said my SYSTEM IS NOT connected to the grid. My house is. I run it through generator transfer switches. You are kind of sounding like the electric co. who said my meter was spinning backwards when they had no idea what they were talking about and had to admit it was impossible because the SYSTEM IS STAND ALONE.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

Energy Rebel said:


> That's true, but sometimes strange things do happen.
> A few years back, we had a line a few hundred feet from our house go down in a storm.
> When the power came on, we lost a tv, microwave , phone and probably more if I hadn't run all over the house unplugging things.
> When I got to my voltmeter and starting checking, I had 220v coming thru all my 110v outlets.
> ...



i had the same thing happen about a decade ago. a branch brought a power line into contact with the neutral. i lost every single thing in my house except the major, heavy-duty appliances. the other two neighbors on that line suffered the same.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

trkarl, welcome to internet message boards. Believe it or not some people either have poor comprehension or don't take the time to read thoroughly. Most of us have our moments, some people do it more than others. It happens. So ignore those and shrug it off. Makes life easier. Just like the electric company people, not everyone "gets" it.

Glad you got it straightened out. It's hard to get the bureaucrats to admit they made the mistake.


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