# Linux question



## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

DS just emailed me to say he has had it with Vista - he is about to make the switch to Linux. What does he need to know? Any pitfalls to avoid?

He knows his way around a computer and has plenty of memory, speed and disc space (but don't ask me details he ain't here! lol)

Oh yes and I know this is asking a lot but he is going to do this tonight if I don't tell him otherwise, so a quick answer would be terrific.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

He suddenly stopped emailing so I am guessing he went ahead with it! lol


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Frankly its stupid to change operating systems without first at least doing homework that your hardware, at least the absolutely necessary hardware is supported.

Second most small and mid sized linux distributions can be booted from cd into ram memory so you can see if you like them before touching your windows partition on your hardrive.

Third some linux distributions can coexist on same hardrive partition along with windows. Decide you dont like them, just manually delete handful of files. Windows just sees them as ubiqutous data files and ignores them.

Forth if you defrag your windows partition then shrink it, you can make a second linux partition on the hardrive. Windows and Linux can have separate partitions on one hardrive. Lilo or Grub bootloaders can chainlink the NT bootloader so you can choose either windows or linux on bootup. You can chose either one to automatically boot maybe with slight delay in case you want to choose the other.

Most linux distributions will have software to be able to see and mount any windows partition. There are now couple pieces of free third party software that lets windows see and mount linux partitions also.

If you are paying attention I am trying to tell you that having both windows and linux on your hardrive is a good thing especially for somebody totally new to linux.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Know your hardware and know what software you need. Linux will run on most hardware but may not support every piece of hardware to its fullest. It may also have issue supporting wireless devices, Broadcom is a bit anti linux vendor so broadcom wireless cards are not supported or not easily supported. 

Understand what application packages you need, Will you need a windows specific package? Do you visit web sites that are IE only? If your DS is in school is there any school requirement that would limit him to windows? 


I personally wouldnt setup a dual boot linux system, if your going to linux go to linux. If you have a need to drop into windows from time to time do it with vmware or Xen to run a virtual server.


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## beorning (Apr 14, 2006)

Gary in ohio said:


> I personally wouldnt setup a dual boot linux system, if your going to linux go to linux. If you have a need to drop into windows from time to time do it with vmware or Xen to run a virtual server.


I just ordered a new laptop for school and was planning on dual booting vista and ubuntu. I like ubuntu, but some of my program curriculum requires a windows capable PC. The program is a network security associates degree and covers *nix, Microsoft and Mac Operating Systems. I have Linux only boxes at home running ubuntu and smoothwall and a vista gaming machine in addition to the laptop.

I'm curious as to what the advantages/limitations are of a virtual server versus dual boot? How easy would it be to use xen or vmware for a reasonably savvy Liinux novice?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mistletoad said:


> DS just emailed me to say he has had it with Vista - he is about to make the switch to Linux.


Why does he want to switch to Linux? What is it about Vista that he's "had it" with? Could he run WinXP on that machine instead?

I know that Vista has problems, but it now appears that Microsoft has made a commitment to Vista. In the past few months I was wondering if Vista was going to be another orphan, like ME was. With Microsoft's commitment I think we can expect a series of service packs for Vista that will make it livable.

Which begs the question; has he installed Vista Service Pack 1 yet?


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

beorning said:


> I just ordered a new laptop for school and was planning on dual booting vista and ubuntu. I like ubuntu, but some of my program curriculum requires a windows capable PC. The program is a network security associates degree and covers *nix, Microsoft and Mac Operating Systems. I have Linux only boxes at home running ubuntu and smoothwall and a vista gaming machine in addition to the laptop.
> 
> I'm curious as to what the advantages/limitations are of a virtual server versus dual boot? How easy would it be to use xen or vmware for a reasonably savvy Liinux novice?


IF you dual boot you need to boot linux, run linux program, stop linux boot XP, run XP programs. If you use xen or vmware then XP is just a window in linux, Its like any other program. You can XP in one window, vista in another, wind 98 in another or another flavor in another window. You will need to have a good chunck of memory to support more than a couple of session but it can be done. At work 25 linux servers run on 1 physcial box. We have 15 linux and 20 windows 2003 servers running on another.


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## beorning (Apr 14, 2006)

unfortunately, it looks like only vista ultimate is legal to run on virtual machines... =[

Guess that means I'll be dual booting and trying to wean myself off of windows entirely, as I don't believe I'm going to shell out to upgrade or to buy a copy of XP...


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

Thanks for all the replies. DS downloaded Puppy Linux at my suggestion and booted from his thumb drive - he liked it right away and now is seeing what it (and he) can do. I know speed (or rather lack thereof) was a major issue for him with Vista and he said Puppy was almost blazingly fast.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

beorning said:


> unfortunately, it looks like only vista ultimate is legal to run on virtual machines... =[
> 
> Guess that means I'll be dual booting and trying to wean myself off of windows entirely, as I don't believe I'm going to shell out to upgrade or to buy a copy of XP...


XP will run fine in a Virtual machine, as will vista or any other windows OS. NOTE microsoft has a product called virtual machine. VMware,XEN is not microsofts virutal machine. Its a virtual server product


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## beorning (Apr 14, 2006)

Yeah, I know they'll run. However it's illegal to run any version of Vista other than ultimate/enterprise on any virtual hardware system, according to microsoft's license agreement, even if you're using microsoft's virtualization program. 

http://www.virtualization.info/2006/10/microsoft-denies-some-vista-editions.html

http://download.microsoft.com/docum...lish_d16c019b-fa71-4fc9-a51d-a0621bddb153.pdf *Page 11*



I don't have XP disks for my new laptop. I do have it installed on my wife's older laptop and on a home theater pc, but it came oem on both of those PC's. I imagine I could make an XP disk using one of these computer's, but I think I'd probably rather use my Vista gaming rig to do anything for school that needs to be done with Windows and start weaning of of microsoft as much as possible everywhere else. 

Don't get me wrong. I was pretty excited to hear about the virtualization option. Beats dual booting by a long shot...


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Neither my XP nor MY vista license has any mention of virtual servers. What they add to the EULA after I purchase it I am not bound by. While they can change the license its not retroactive.


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## beorning (Apr 14, 2006)

Good point. I might need to read the copy of the license that comes with the oem Vista on that laptop. Maybe they didn't get it updated in time. =]


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Gary in ohio said:


> I personally wouldnt setup a dual boot linux system, if your going to linux go to linux.


Thats asking a lot of anybody doing more than usual mundane home computer tasks. Sort of like jumping off a cliff without looking what you are jumping into. 

Many new linux users test the water several times before they find a distribution they like and learn linux is not just a "free" version of windows. Some decide they will wait forever until they find a linux that mimicks windows every nuance cause they cant be bothered to change or learn anything new.

Changing operating systems requires some homework. especially need to check if it supports current major hardware. 

I run into some people who wont even spring for the $5 to buy a different modem. If linux wont support their 1998 software modem that probably even Vista doesnt support then they just cant possibly switch. Heaven forbid if their new "15 gadgets in 1" printer that does everything under sun except milk the cow isnt fully supported. 

Second, is there linux software that meets their needs or can their current windows software run well enough under WINE to do the job. 

I reinterate nuking M$ without doing ones homework is silly. And going cold turkey to new operating system without ability to use old one if necessary is even sillier.

I am sure running one operating system virtually under another operating system is the bees knees of techies, but a dual boot setup works even on old slow hardware and gives reassurance to new linux user that windows is there and can be booted independently if some situation does pop up. 

I recently shopped for new entry level computer for an elderly friend who insisted he wanted a completely "NEW" computer. He didnt like prices in Walmart type stores he looked at. I found bargain basement one in a webstore without an operating system and even it had a 160gb hardrive as standard. Thats plenty of room to install couple dozen operating systems simutaneously and still keep every family photo from last 100 years in storage on it. Funny, even current Puppy Linux that I put on his new computer is less than 100mb. He uses this thing only for email and light web surfing. So even this bargain basement new computer is extreme overkill for his needs as he wont use fraction of its capacity in any manner. But have to say Puppy 4.00 runs as fast on it as I've ever seen any operating system ever run on a home computer. If I had put Vista on it, sure the system would only be mediocre at best plus he'd constantly be begging me to do all the updates to operating system and the virus software. Thats a job I dont want. Cant see why anybody would torture themselves doing it, especially on dialup.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

HermitJohn said:


> Thats asking a lot of anybody doing more than usual mundane home computer tasks. Sort of like jumping off a cliff without looking what you are jumping into.
> .


Being that MOST people dont do much more than use XP or VISTA as an app launcher and know little to nothing about how it works or is managed, Linux would be fine. The personal had VISTA so they have a recent vintage computer, so again linux isnt an issue. With the smart installers now available most system auto load to a functioning system where most post can find the apps they need.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

mistletoad said:


> DS just emailed me to say he has had it with Vista - he is about to make the switch to Linux. What does he need to know? Any pitfalls to avoid?
> 
> He knows his way around a computer and has plenty of memory, speed and disc space (but don't ask me details he ain't here! lol)
> 
> Oh yes and I know this is asking a lot but he is going to do this tonight if I don't tell him otherwise, so a quick answer would be terrific.


I've been running Ubuntu for over a year now. Yes there are things to learn. It's not quite as "dumbed down" as Winblows is.....and Linux isn't so bloated and slow.

When it comes to troubleshooting, yes be prepared for some old fashioned DOS-style command line entries.

It's a learning experience but it is very worthwhile to avoid letting one's brains run down and become dependent on Micro$oft-type bloatware.

The majority of Linux applications are free and once you get around the goofy names you quickly learn how to use them.

For Microsoft Office users, there's OpenOffice which lets you do the same things as typing, spreadsheets, etc....without owing the M$oft Mafia a dime.

For music, instead of iTunes, there's Rhythmbox.

For Photoshop? There's GIMP.

For chat? You can use Pidgin (which handles about a dozen of the different chat types so you don't have to download and switch to different chat programs for hotmail, for Yahoo, etc..... - Pidgin handles all of them but without many of the stupid bells and whistles).

There are also user groups you can subscribe to as well as on-line assistance from other users.

You can also set up your Ubuntu Linux box to do web server duty even as you use it for normal stuff. I've done that to mine.

http://georutkay.homelinux.org/

This is hosted over my home connection on my Pentium 4 Dell machine even as I type this.

I'd definitely recommend Linux for anyone who wants to learn how to do something with their machinery.

But if your DS isn't the kind who wants to jump in and try such a different system, maybe he'd better stick with Windows.


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## danb98577 (Dec 16, 2005)

HermitJohn and others make valid points, but I have to say that it would be nice if there were some basic guide to Linux out there somewhere: IE you have to use a serial modem as opposed to standard old internal modem. That would have saved me many headaches. Another consideration would be whether a certain version of Linux is compatible with dial up. The version of Ubuntu I wound up with was not. Some of us are on a tight budget and can't afford DSL or dish setups. 
And I have a problem with the "clubby" attitude of some of the Linux forums that seemingly enjoy basking in snobbery in their responses to questions. If I ask a question it is to learn something, not for some ditzoid to respond with a snarky answer to stroke his ego. 
I dumped Windows and went with a version of Linux that works. I am learning it slowly, and probably the hard way, but it is coming along. I wound up with PCLinux, and am doing okay, so far. We are all different in our aptitudes and approaches, so certainly what works for one will not always do for another.


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

mistletoad said:


> DS just emailed me to say he has had it with Vista - he is about to make the switch to Linux. What does he need to know?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

danb98577 said:


> HermitJohn and others make valid points, but I have to say that it would be nice if there were some basic guide to Linux out there somewhere: IE you have to use a serial modem as opposed to standard old internal modem. That would have saved me many headaches. Another consideration would be whether a certain version of Linux is compatible with dial up. The version of Ubuntu I wound up with was not. Some of us are on a tight budget and can't afford DSL or dish setups.
> And I have a problem with the "clubby" attitude of some of the Linux forums that seemingly enjoy basking in snobbery in their responses to questions. If I ask a question it is to learn something, not for some ditzoid to respond with a snarky answer to stroke his ego.
> I dumped Windows and went with a version of Linux that works. I am learning it slowly, and probably the hard way, but it is coming along. I wound up with PCLinux, and am doing okay, so far. We are all different in our aptitudes and approaches, so certainly what works for one will not always do for another.


There are linux guides out there, but you have to remember that various distributions of linux share the kernel and usually many pieces of software, BUT the scripts that make everything function may be vastly different. There are also a zillion window managers and file managers. Some distributions organize their files somewhat differently. 

I suggest dual boot cause that is how I learned linux. Several years ago I started out with linux and windows and tried to do as much as I could in linux, but had windows if I needed to do something I had no idea how to do in linux or where there was no linux software that did what I wanted to do. Remember at that time an ancient version of Netscape was about only linux browser that was close to full featured out there and it crashed a lot.

There are linux drivers for some soft dialup modems. Puppy contains most of the ones functional with the 2.6 linux kernel. Linux or windows, a hardware modem is still best way to go and you can get a $5 serial to usb converter cable off ebay to convert old serial modem to usb for those without a serial port. I strongly suggest you want a converter cable with the pl2303 (prolific) chipset. This chipset has linux support for very long time. Starting with kernel 2.6.24 there is module built in to support the ch341 (winchiphead) chipset. It works, but maybe little funkier than the prolific. 

Just about all linux distributions come with the ppp module installed so support dialup. Some, especially European, distributions seem to really give little thought to those on dialup. I ran across a neat little distribution called Slitaz (35mb download), had ppp, but some marginal ancient script to dial. I couldnt get it to work. I just copied 75kb wvdial file (this is tiny) from Puppy, manually created some necessary config files and voila, it dialed. Why they thought they were saving space by not at least including wvdial is beyond me, all I can figure is they didnt use dialup and didnt really care about it. Far as I know all ubuntu releases contain wvdial and latest has Gnome gui front end for it, but easiest just to manually edit the /etc/wvdial.conf file and then open a terminal and type wvdial, that simple. Close the terminal window when you want to disconnect.

Sorry to say we even have couple idiots on Puppy forum with an ego trip that seem to always want to add an unhelpful comment on every thread, but for most part you will find people helpful to newbies. In the end it is just a slow learning process to become proficient in linux. Most newer distributions anybody can use out of box, but takes time to figure how to tweak things and where things are at, etc. Same is true in windows, any idiot can use windows out of box and push buttons to make things automagically happen, but still takes time to learn the nuts and bolts under the hood and how to correct problems when they do crop up... and they will. You dont become a linux expert overnight anymore than you become a windows expert overnight. 

By way I agree PClinux is good distribution, especially if you just want to use it out of box and not want to tinker. Its very stable. They took time to make things work very smoothly before releasing it.


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

Again, I'm saying go with Ubuntu - and combine it with as many software as a service (SaaS) applications as you can.

For example, sign up for Google Apps - so you get a spreadsheet, word processor, etc ... all that run anywhere on the world from a browser ... operating system agnostic.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

MeanDean said:


> Again, I'm saying go with Ubuntu - and combine it with as many software as a service (SaaS) applications as you can.
> 
> For example, sign up for Google Apps - so you get a spreadsheet, word processor, etc ... all that run anywhere on the world from a browser ... operating system agnostic.


Try using this stuff with older hardware on a SLOW dialup connection. You keep forgetting that many homesteader type people live out in boonies without availability of broadband. Connected through my cell phone max connection is 19k. On dialup I can get 24k connection though probably surf closer to 21k to 22k. No dsl or cable available. Satellite connection would be expensive luxury since it wouldnt pay for itself for what it could do beyond dialup connection. I pay around $3.34 cents per month for dialup. Satellite is like minimum of $60 or closer to $100 a month if you dont want to be constantly reprimanded and slowed down to dialup speed for violating fair use policy. Their minimum price plans tend to be for little old ladies that want to check their email once a day and little light surfing. Try watching utube or something and you use up your bandwidth quick on minimum price plans. Sorry but nothing I am going to do on internet that would gain me the missing $96 per month.


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

HermitJohn said:


> TYou keep forgetting that many homesteader type people live out in boonies without availability of broadband.


I haven't forgotten anything.

IN fact, there are many flavors of scalable Ubuntu and Knoppix that both support a dial-up scenario - both with a much better optimized and more efficient kernel than the old stuff you're recommending.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MeanDean said:


> I haven't forgotten anything.
> 
> IN fact, there are many flavors of scalable Ubuntu and Knoppix that both support a dial-up scenario - both with a much better optimized and more efficient kernel than the old stuff you're recommending.


I think he was referring to subscribing to SaaS applications with dialup.


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I think he was referring to subscribing to SaaS applications with dialup.


Which is why using things like "gadgets" offline is also an option.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

MeanDean said:


> I haven't forgotten anything.
> 
> IN fact, there are many flavors of scalable Ubuntu and Knoppix that both support a dial-up scenario - both with a much better optimized and more efficient kernel than the old stuff you're recommending.


Indeed I was replying to your suggestion of using an online spreadsheet, etc. Java and flash and such wonders are incredibly slow over a dialup bottleneck. 

And if you dont know, 24k dialup connection will bottleneck the fastest system. There are tricks such as disabling flash, java, blocking ads, etc and with the even slower cell phone connection, disabling image loading helps too. But that just gets html info that I actually want easier, still doesnt make more data flow through the dialup bottleneck.

And current Ubuntu 8.04 uses 2.6.24 kernel. I am using Puppy 4.00 with optional 2.6.25 kernel on my desktop, older Puppy with older kernel on my laptop. Sorry but Ubuntu is the older kernel in such a comparison whatever you want to believe. Not that such minute difference in kernel matters except sometimes a newer kernel will natively support some more or newer hardware. Speed differences are usually more to do with script improvements than small kernel updates. Puppy will run circles around even Xubuntu, just smaller more efficient design. I noticed PClinux which is about same size as Ubuntu runs faster than Ubuntu 7.10, havent had chance to try Ubuntu 8.04 as its a 3 day around the clock download on dialup (not worth it), but only hour using library wifi with my ancient laptop. Just last time I was at library with my laptop, their system was down.


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## beorning (Apr 14, 2006)

Canonical will ship a copy of the latest version of Ubuntu to anyone that requests it, free of charge. You get the disc and some nifty stickers. Shipping is gratis as well. The website says it can take from 6-10 weeks to receive the software, but mine came in 3 weeks.

Here's a link:

https://shipit.ubuntu.com/


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

HermitJohn said:


> Indeed I was replying to your suggestion of using an online spreadsheet, etc. Java and flash and such wonders are incredibly slow over a dialup bottleneck.


Most of the successful SaaS solutions of which I speak do not employ Flash nor Java to deliver their products. 

Like it or not, with the eventual deployment of technologies such as WiMax and/or more generous data plans on 3g mobile technologies, dial-up hold outs will begin to realize said technology is as dead as client bloat-ware such as MS Office.

Moreover, the OP simply stated they wanted to move away from a machine that had Vista installed. If said platform can manage Vista, then it can certainly manage an Ubuntu, Knoppix and/or other Debian install.


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