# Benefit of Canine Aggression vs. need for a "pack" of LGDs?



## stud40111 (Jun 15, 2014)

[I posted this on another forum as well but it appears that I have not yet received any responses.[

Hi everyone. I am COMPLETELY new to all this. At this point, I don't have any livestock and am still in the process of buying some land. However, as each day goes on, I am getting closer and closer to realizing my dream of living away from the city and having my hobby farm. As such, before finally taking the plunge I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about what lies ahead.

It is for the preceding reason that I have come here to get some insights from those more experienced than I about LGDs.

I have been doing a lot of research and my main question is: how do you keep multiple livestock guardian dogs from fighting each other?

I ask this question because it seems that in most situation where you have a legitimate predator threat, e.g. bears, mountain lions, packs of coyotes, wolves, and feral dogs, it is recommended that one have at least two LGDs so that one is not "underdogged." However, my research on most LGD breeds leads me to believe that the more effective breeds have rather dominant, alpha temperaments AND are generally rather canine aggressive.

As such, how can one both run multiple LGDs and make sure that these alpha-inclined, canine aggressive dogs do not fight among themselves?

Offhand, I can only think of three solutions, namely

1) That the dogs be raised together from puppyhood and "correct" them whenever they attempt to fight. However, can this really be done effectively with a highly canine aggressive LGD breed like a Kangal, for instance?

or

2) Perhaps one should get an LGD from a breed that is considered less canine aggressive however, according to a the report entitled" A Review: The Use of Livestock Protection Dogsin Association with Large Carnivoresin the Rocky Mountains"

dogs that are highly canine aggressive are often better deterrents against wolves than those that aren't so I'm not sure if that's the best solution especially given that I am looking to buy land near wolf country. Furthermore, even if acquiring less aggressive breeds is the answer, which LGD breeds would fit the bill?

or

3) Another solution would be to somehow establish a pack "structure" that not only establishes their human handlers are "alpha" but that then also makes clear where each LGD stands within the overall pack. However, if this is the answer, how does one go about doing this?

So as you can see I'm in a bit of a conundrum.

Any suggestions, insights, or pieces of advice on this topic would be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I'll give this a shot,
First off, how much dog handling experience do you have?
Most true LGD's can be a bit of a handful, and the novice dog person can get in deep real quick.
Assuming you have had, and trained "intense" dog breeds before, no worries, you can handle an LGD.
Now, I have Pyrs, not the most aggressive of the breeds, but aggressive enough to keep any, and everything off our property.
We got our two together, as puppies. With Pyrs, the females tend to be more dominant, and my Maggie is definitely the Alpha dog here. Her and my male have had a few spats, but they always seem to settle it rather quickly, with Murphy slinking off in a snit.
Generally, if they are raised together, they will figure out the Pack order on their own.
My thinking is, it is always best to start with pups whenever possible. Although, some people have had good luck introducing adults, this hasn't been my experience though.
Like I said, I have Pyrs, so I'm sure some one on here with Anatolians, or Kangals will be along soon to explain them to you..
Good luck in your new adventure!:thumb:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

None of my Pyrs have been difficult to handle and training wasn't much work either. We did a few obedience commands but they were simply raised as pups with our sheep and goats and they knew what to do. We had one that was aggressive with our pet dogs and he also chased horses and killed chickens. We ended up rehoming him to a family with no other animals (he was wonderful with children).
Two were littermates and they did best together. Occasional wrestling matches but no real fighting. We've loved our Pyrs. Great dogs with the family, the livestock and I don't think they've ever actually had to engage with a predator. We have black and grizzly bears here, wolves, coyotes, lynx, etc. and they all just give this place a wide berth because the Pyrs patrol and mark their boundaries. And bark...lots and lots of barking. I'm awfully glad we have no neighbors in any kind of close proximity.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Lisa, aren't Pyr's just the best?
I honestly have no idea what we'd do without our two.


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## Mrs_Lewis (May 15, 2014)

Since you stated you're "completely new to this" I'll read that as being completely new to both livestock and LGDs?

Taking on both simultaneously can't be recommend, starting with livestock and once established, *if there's a need* , get LGDs is my suggestion.

I'd also suggest staying clear or Kangals and other harder breeds if inexperienced.

Pyrs are generally a good choice as you've seen stated above, I'm personally quite fond of the Maremma as well. 
Depending on the climate those might not be suitable, if so the Anatolian is often a good choice, but be aware that they're harder work than their fluffy relatives mentioned above (although not rivaling Kangals etc)

Best of luck.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Mrs_Lewis said:


> Since you stated you're "completely new to this" I'll read that as being completely new to both livestock and LGDs?
> 
> Taking on both simultaneously can't be recommend, starting with livestock and once established, *if there's a need* , get LGDs is my suggestion.
> 
> ...


I am in complete agreement with Mrs. Lewis, this is NO WAY I would get a Kangal as a first dog, get a Pyr, or a Mar, but having had Pyrs, Rott/Pyr mixes and other assorted dogs I still would NOT feel confident training one Kangal let alone two!!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

In the upper right hand corner of every post is the poster&#8217;s geographic location. We do not know if you are in southern CA or Minnesota.

You don&#8217;t know yet what kind of danger our livestock will face. A mutt from the pound may keep raccoons and &#8216;possums away. Chickens eat fleas and ticks. Your problem may be neighbor&#8217;s dogs running loose, who attack for fun rather than hunger. Your problem may be coyotes or coydogs. We have coyotes and coydogs and I never lost a sheep to them. I did loose a lamb once to a loose dog. This happened because I had separated my mini-donkeys from the sheep one afternoon.

You may need a protector who keeps predators away by his mere presence. Donkeys are perceived as a threat because of their long ears, and because they will march right up to the danger. Pyrs bark, which disrupts the stalking sequence of a wolf or coyote. However, they are smart enough to eventually figure it out, especially if their normal dinner is getting scarce. Most of us do not need a protector who hunts down wolves or coyotes or bears and kills them. Only get what you need. What you may need is electric fencing and not a guard at all.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Yes should def like dogs and be able to handle before getting into LGDs--

as to running a pack -- here is a wonderful link on a lady who breeds them and runs them pack style-- she loves loves her dogs--
the pack part is down to the bottom of the page...


http://www.lgdnevada.com/The_CDR_Difference.html


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

Management. We were dumb and researched AFTER we got our first LGD. It's then people were saying it's incredibly difficult to keep LGD's with nonLGD's because of communication issues. Well there is some conflict, I won't lie. But we manage it properly and all of our dogs are kept inside with us when we are home. We have 3 dogs now, akbash, great pyr and weimeraner. We've had 6. Lost a few to cancer and old age. Anyway, the akbash needs to be managed because he is young and very very large and playful. We have to make sure he doesn't hurt everyone else playing. The pyr is a resource guarder. I keep tabs on him and if I see him getting all guardy I redirect and remind him who is really in charge in our household. 

Now that said I've had some fights. I consider my dogs to be like everything else. Eventually whoever you are living with is going to annoy the crap out of you. An LGD fight isn't something to smirk at. They're large, they do damage. So if you don't feel comfortable or capable of breaking up an LGD fight I'd not suggest you get any.

All in all our dogs are great. Here are some pics. Some of when we had many more. Some of my 2 LGD's hanging out. They chase each other about the property. The last pic they're playing. Great dogs!


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

Maura said:


> In the upper right hand corner of every post is the posterâs geographic location. We do not know if you are in southern CA or Minnesota.
> 
> You donât know yet what kind of danger our livestock will face. A mutt from the pound may keep raccoons and âpossums away. Chickens eat fleas and ticks. Your problem may be neighborâs dogs running loose, who attack for fun rather than hunger. Your problem may be coyotes or coydogs. We have coyotes and coydogs and I never lost a sheep to them. I did loose a lamb once to a loose dog. This happened because I had separated my mini-donkeys from the sheep one afternoon.
> 
> You may need a protector who keeps predators away by his mere presence. Donkeys are perceived as a threat because of their long ears, and because they will march right up to the danger. Pyrs bark, which disrupts the stalking sequence of a wolf or coyote. However, they are smart enough to eventually figure it out, especially if their normal dinner is getting scarce. Most of us do not need a protector who hunts down wolves or coyotes or bears and kills them. Only get what you need. What you may need is electric fencing and not a guard at all.


Agreed. Also you may get one and it may not do what you want at all. See my post about our akbash being utterly useless as a guard.

However, we have this peacock that's super man. Before he was even 1 year of age he'd puff up and threaten great horned owls. Now that he's 2 and feeling his balls he's protector of all he sees. Even torments our dogs. He just sits on the roof watching all of his charges. The few times we've had attacks the yell of our peacock is what alerted me to the danger. Peacocks, I'd suggest them! lol


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> None of my Pyrs have been difficult to handle and training wasn't much work either. We did a few obedience commands but they were simply raised as pups with our sheep and goats and they knew what to do. We had one that was aggressive with our pet dogs and he also chased horses and killed chickens. We ended up rehoming him to a family with no other animals (he was wonderful with children).
> Two were littermates and they did best together. Occasional wrestling matches but no real fighting. We've loved our Pyrs. Great dogs with the family, the livestock and I don't think they've ever actually had to engage with a predator. We have black and grizzly bears here, wolves, coyotes, lynx, etc. and they all just give this place a wide berth because the Pyrs patrol and mark their boundaries. And bark...lots and lots of barking. I'm awfully glad we have no neighbors in any kind of close proximity.


See our pyr is soooo weird. He doesn't bark barely ever. We should have named him ghost. Scared the hell out of me one night when I came inside and before I knew it he was right there on me. He does not bark when threatened. He doesn't make a sound. He just puffs up, wanders over and DEAD. lol Well I imagine it'd be dead but he's never approached anything I've had need of him to kill. He has repelled an intruder from our home. We weren't home at the time. We just came home to an open door and a furious dog. But yeah, our akbash barks but our pyr.. he doesn't. He's scary.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I think it is good that you are asking questions and trying to learn NOW, before you make any purchases. Just because a person has a few animals does not mean they NEED a guard dog. Keep in mind these are big dogs, require some space and feed and vet care and they are not free, this will be an additional expense. If not really needed this money could be better spent to buy more "productive" animals that actually produce an product like eggs or meat etc? 
Sort of like buying a brand new Superman lunch box before getting your new job, only to find out you did not need it, they provide lunch at your new job. Now you are out money and carrying around this Superman lunchbox wondering what to do with it??
So you see not everyone needs a Superman lunchbox, but sometimes it does make you feel good, just to be able to tell people you got one??


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm only qualified to respond to your first solution: "1)_ That the dogs be raised together from puppyhood and "correct" them whenever they attempt to fight. However, can this really be done effectively with a highly canine aggressive LGD breed like a Kangal, for instance?_"

Based upon my experience with my Kangal mix, the answer is "no." Our dog, at about two years of age suddenly became very dominant/aggressive to other dogs. Prior to this she was generally dog park safe. As a pup, she was fully socialized with puppy classes, supervised dog park visits, etc. We let her go through one heat at a year old and then had her spayed - so the temperament change had nothing to do with her being unfixed.
Most dogs I've had when they transition out of adolescence generally seem to get a bit more mellow and play a bit less. This temperament change was completely different than that, and the timing didn't reflect most of the common wisdom I found for other breeds, including other molossers.

These days when Daisy meets another dog she seems to basically have three speeds: (1) Submissive; (2) Let's play! (which is usually a prelude to increasing dominance as she gets worked up) or (3) DefCon 5. Option 1 seems to be reserved only for certain particularly dominant male dogs. I have serious doubts if she would ever be safe with another female dog unattended. 

FWIW - I've had dogs my whole life and was caught completely off guard with how much of a handful she turned out to be during this period. We've got it pretty much worked out now - but the learning curve was pretty steep - there's nothing quite like being aggressively challenged/tested by 120+lb of super-athletic dog that wants to be the boss of you.


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## kareninaustria (Dec 22, 2008)

It's not true that Kangals cannot work in groups. DH just returned from Anatolia, acquiring two Kangals for ourselves. Everywhere they encountered shephards and sheep, always accompanied by groups of 3-4 Kangals. The people live in compounds with sheep, goats, and multiple Kangals, both loose and chained. Little children play among them, including the ever-present puppies in their games. 
The Turkish people have endless pride in and respect for the impeccable character of their dogs.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

My point wasn't that Kangals can't ever get along in a pack setting. Just that training during puppyhood isn't going to offer you any guarantees to an easygoing, drama-free relationship later in life - especially with intact female or male pairs. 

I've had multiple dogs before with no problems, but the level of dominance we're talking about here is at another level and the ability of a Kangal to inflict damage could result in a dead or seriously injured dog in no time if a scuffle ever escalated into a full blown fight. It only has to happen once - so I think an abundance of caution is advised.

FWIW - The only time I suffered a serious dog bite was trying to break-up a fight between a young male Rotti and my male Rhodesian Ridgeback/Pit cross. I was by myself and the Rotti jumped a fence and attacked my dog. As I pulled them apart, my dog lost her clamp on the Rotti's head and bit my wrist - put a canine tooth right to the bone. Thank God the Rotti fled the scene. 

Point being, I can't imagine trying to separate two Kangals if they really started going at it.

As an aside, I've also got to wonder how many scuffles and torn-up dogs it takes to get rank issues all worked when the Turks add/change pack members - or do they have access to enough dogs to pick teams that get along? 

My understanding is that the Turks are pretty ruthless in their culling (one of the reasons their LGDs are what they are) so they're probably not going to worry too much if some fur flies now and again.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

citxmech said:


> My point wasn't that Kangals can't ever get along in a pack setting. Just that training during puppyhood isn't going to offer you any guarantees to an easygoing, drama-free relationship later in life - especially with intact female or male pairs.
> 
> I've had multiple dogs before with no problems, but the level of dominance we're talking about here is at another level and the ability of a Kangal to inflict damage could result in a dead or seriously injured dog in no time if a scuffle ever escalated into a full blown fight. It only has to happen once - so I think an abundance of caution is advised.
> 
> ...


Having a lone dominant female is really different from raising one in a group of dominant dogs- they do sort out their pack orders but from pups age going up, etc...

BTW our sweet little pittie mix turned DA right at age 2, and that was no joke how suddenly she could attack another dog....
That age 2 thing, in breeds prone to aggression is typical....


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Got a perfect example of how quick an established pack order can go wrong with an LGD.
Last night after I had fed all the dogs, mind you we have 5, the 2 Pyr's, 2 Pekingese house dogs, and my Mom's old Beagle mix we took in when Mom passed 2 years ago.
The Pekes were 5 and 6 when we got the Pyrs, so NORMALLY the Pyrs will let the Pekes play boss dog, in the group, but Mags is Alpha out in the pastures.
Well, Maggie and Murphy were, I thought all done eating. So I let my little guys out to have a potty break after dinner.
Thank goodness I went out with them to smoke a cigarette!
Pugs made the mistake of wandering to close to Murphy's empty dish. Murph came flying across the yard and had Pugs in his mouth in a second! Threw him half way across the yard, and then went after Bogie just because he was standing within 5 feet.
These are dogs that normally have no problem eating out of each others dishes, but not last night. As I was running to check the little dogs for damage, Murph turned on Maggie, as she was growling at him, I have no idea why, I'm assuming that her being the Alpha, normally, she was not ok with what he was doing.
Needless to say, I grabbed the hose, and they stopped, but the fur was flying for a few minutes.
The two little guys are alright, thank goodness, Maggie seems to have forgiven her brother, as they were asleep in their normal pile this morning, but never, never assume that because your dogs get along normally, they always will.
I also have to agree about the 2 yo thing. Ever since Mags and Murph turned 2 in February, we have had to keep a closer watch on them for more aggressive behavior with the other dogs.
These are *just* Pyrs, I can't imagine what a pair of Kangals would have done to my little Pekes!


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Hello and I do hope you return to check out what is being said here. These posters are full of great experiences that can be useful to you.

I've had aggressive dogs all my life, raising German Shepherds during earlier years, then tending to farm dogs (some pureblood some mixes) of varied breeds during these latter years. What I've learned from the ones I've had is that they like to "fit in". By that I mean each dog I have ever had has enjoyed "knowing what is expected of it". The way I've handled this is by watching to find out what the strenghs of each dog is and connect that to a task our farm needs. (This sounds complicated, but it really isn't.)

As for "packs" and "adolescent stages", that is always a trying time and not for the inexperienced if your dogs are expected to *guard*. Letting the dogs decide for themselves how to work together is a great tool as long as you are agile enough to step in (as the alpha) should the need arise. 

The most important task for you at this particular time is exactly what you're doing, i.e. research. Along with this you would be wise to learn your own personal qualifications for dealing with various types of animals, including those that guard; and I'm not speaking of just your average "dog training 101" class. What I'm referring to here is your ability to work as a "*partner" to an alpha who thinks for itself "while" retaining an alpha position when it is needed.*


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Rambler that LGD are not usually trained the same as some other breeds. Some , like our Tibetian Mastiffs can develop same sex aggression. We are also firm believers that they take a lot more socialization if other people will be coming around. In our experience they do not respond well to being yelled at. Or physically disappointed. Results are much better when treated like our shutzhund dogs


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