# A/C Be Gone?



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Ok, so we'll be closing on the 80 wooded acres in northern Ozark County Missouri in a couple weeks.

High point on the land is 1,225'...low point is 1,020' feet. Nice gradual ridge runs from the west central boundary to the southeast corner. Should be able to put a house into the hillside with good southern exposure for the winter, and with proper overhangs and window placement, keep the hot direct sun out in the summer.

Current thoughts: I am considering building either a round cordwood or a round earth bag house (post and beam frame), with lots of thermal mass and thick walls...up to 24". I will likely do the northern 1/3 of the house in poured concrete or reinforced block and earth berm it to the roof. Ideally the floor at the northern end of the house would be at least 10' below grade, and would be a nice, thick, cold slab of concrete. Might go with a living roof...might just go super insulated. I will site the house to take advantage of the mature oaks for summer shading. Large overhangs will keep the direct summer sun off the floors.

Due to the distance to electricity and expense of bringing it in, and also due to the desire to break away from the grid, I am seriously considering staying off grid.

I am thinking a properly built and situated house in the woods like this, could be made livable without the energy hog traditional compressed CFC air conditioning. I could see a dehumidifier in this application, as they use a fair bit less energy?


I currently live in Houston and cannot imagine living without a/c here. But with careful thought, it seems like I ought to be able to put together a house in the woods of MO that could be pretty comfortable, 350 days out of the year, without a/c. Of course, a lot has to do with what you are used to. Right now, I live in A/C 24/7 for 6 months of the year! So part of my brain is screaming "mow down the trees, build the easement, run the power lines!"

Am I crazy for thinking this can be done?? 


Tim


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Not at all. With the type construction you're thinking, it would be easily doable. The one thing you might want to watch is plan for enough air flow so you don't have a moisture problem.

The "350 day" rule works for us here. Built our house with a lot of internal mass, and super insulated ( 10" exterior walls ) many years ago. Finally added a small "mini split" AC unit a few years ago, but basically, it gets couple weeks use a year ( usually August )....the house typically is 10-15 degrees cooler inside than out.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

A dehumidifier will use a lot of energy if it is needed 24\7.
Your ideas sound good. Built into the ground seems like a great way to go.
Put a PV system on that *living roof* for your "power".

If I were 'starting over' I'd go the route you have posted............


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

A thread you might be interested in http://www.city-data.com/forum/tennessee/359683-going-off-grid-east-tennessee.html, I have followed it since they started and is very interesting. You can see what they have done. They have posted here also a few times and are up in TnAndy's neck of the woods.

Two things that I see, and you made comment too is being able to remove the humidity. I think this is going to be your biggest challenge and the dehumidifier may be the best answer too that. As TnAndy said planning your ventilation will be your top priority and at times even at best you may still have too run the dehumidifier. (not sure how the humidity will be there, sure can't be any worst than here in Carolina)


Take your time, talk too others that have done it and go for it! I think it's doable without the a/c. Good luck.


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Pay attention to air flow. I experienced first hand what a difference it can make. In the 1940s my grandfather built a 2 story, concrete block, uninsulated house for his wife and 8 children about 30 miles south of Meridian, MS. The lower floor had a large kitchen and the rest was a small grocery store. Lots of windows and a door on each side. When I was very young, that lower floor was always cool and comfortable, though sometimes a little humid. Upstairs could be too hot in summer.

Granny eventually closed the grocery and my mother purchased the house from her. The first thing mom did was to put a garage on the west side of the house. This blocked the west door and window. Then she divided the lower floor into rooms. At this point the air flow became quite constricted. Now, the upstairs was hotter than ever and even downstairs was miserable without a/c. The concrete floors began to sweat and the posts supporting the upstairs rotted and had to be replaced. All because attn was not paid to airflow.


----------



## DW (May 10, 2002)

High ceilings...my folks lived for yrs w/o ac and plant some big, fast growing trees.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I believe you can replace the AC and dehumidifier with earth tubes. That will save you a ton of money and reduce your energy needs.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Thanks for all the great thoughts.

I have been looking at earth tubes for some time. Our area is quite rocky though, and all that trenching might be too much labor! But earth tubes are actually still on my list of possible options.

The mini-split ac units are interesting....I have seen them up to 25 SEER!

Looks like while I may be challenged, I am probably not nuts! Yea for me....

Tim


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Excavating and trenching might seem like a tough ($$$) nut to handle but down the road worth it.
Any cement/block in ground 'walls' need serious blue board insulation . .inside and out.

I was amazed at the comfortable temp in the unheated 9' tall basement of a customer where I installed the inverter/batterys/etc. for their wind system. . . . .They had the sandwich foam/poured concrete walls.
Sure seemed well worth the cost..........


----------



## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Another thing to think of is using liquid desiccant, solar pump, solar heating panel, and radiator to provide solar powered dehumidification. Combine this with the cooling of earthtubes/bermed house, and you get cool dry air.

Michael


----------



## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Put low windows on a shaded 1 story wall (cool afternoon air), clerestory window (shaded in summer) circulates a breeze that cools the house and gets rid of the moisture problem. Operable skylights work well to. Draw cool air in at the bottom, sweeps across 1 story area, air rises and exits at the top....James

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=f6IsTKyJKoiEngeG5YyPDw&ved=0CDkQ9QEwBA


----------



## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

If you have a stream with flow and fall, you might be able to construct a trompe.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

You can build (plant) temporary shade by running vines up to the roof. They can ornamental like scarlet climbing beans or edible like green beans.


----------



## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

HUMIDity will be your main enemy here in Mo. A dehumidifier is actually more energy inefficient than an AC unit as it puts off a lot of heat. We have to use one in our cellar though. New construction, careful planning, water stop and fiber used but we can get 2 gallons of moisture out of the air in an 8'X 10' room. Insulate heavily away from any earth exposure.

You don't want southern exposure here. We live in Laclede County next door to you. The winter winds are from the south. The summer winds are from the south. We bought this place 10 yrs ago and wish the exposure was to the east for heat problems.. Summer and winter we use the north side the most. 

After you live with the seed ticks and chiggers for a yr you will cut down all the trees close to the house to solve the problem. Guineas and chickens help some.

We knew a couple with the same ideas as you. He dropped a glove on some leaves one day and after he counted over 100 seed ticks on the glove he left it lay.

I strongly suggest you learn the enviroment before you throw your money down the drain building something that won't work down here. Missouri has some unique problems to over come. Its a great place to live and grow food 10 months a yr but I see no way to do it without power. Its a lot easier to keep warm than cool energy wise. We've seriously thought about moving back to northern Nebraska for this reason. I can insulate a house against the cold but not the heat.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

oldasrocks said:


> HUMIDity will be your main enemy here in Mo. A dehumidifier is actually more energy inefficient than an AC unit as it puts off a lot of heat. We have to use one in our cellar though. New construction, careful planning, water stop and fiber used but we can get 2 gallons of moisture out of the air in an 8'X 10' room. Insulate heavily away from any earth exposure.
> 
> You don't want southern exposure here. We live in Laclede County next door to you. The winter winds are from the south. The summer winds are from the south. We bought this place 10 yrs ago and wish the exposure was to the east for heat problems.. Summer and winter we use the north side the most.
> 
> ...



Sorry, Missouri has no unique problems to overcome. The heat is worse in Texas, the cold is worse in Wisconsin. Every place has its issues. They can all be, to a great extent, engineered around or dealt with one way or another.

You just need to think it out and create a specific plan for the issues as they exist in your chosen area. That is why I am thinking about this *10 YEARS BEFORE I BUILD*.

If you have not figured out how to insulate against the heat, you probably ought to move farther north than NE!


Tim


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

FYI

July average high temps: Grand Island, NE 87F, Rolla, MO 89F

January average low temps: Grand Island, NE 12F, Rolla, MO 20F


Are we to believe one can engineer a comfortable home in Grand Island, but not Rolla?


edit: should also mention that the extreme highs and lows are both worse in NE, too!


----------



## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Tarbe, I lived in Nebraska most of my life. Yes it gets hot there and humid too. Been here 10 yrs and I think the humidity is a lot worse here. In the last 2 weeks we have been running sprinklers 24 hrs a day trying to keep things alive yet the air is horribly humid. Maybe I'm just getting old. If you don't get the outside work done by 7 am here now you are dripping in sweat by 8 am.

Yes I have insulated against the heat and cold. I grew up with southern exposure so bought a house here with the same. Danged if the winds don't blow all winter from the south here not the north. North facing house would be better here. Cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter because of the wind.

I said northern Nebraska because of the humidity here and the necessary to control it. I worked outside most of my life and would rather work in 10 degree weather than 90 degree. Same with living--its easier to dress for the cold. Average temps don't mean squat. We have friends that come to visit from Houston and think its hot and humid here. I've never spent any time down that way so no personal experiance.

When I say "unique" you can take that as differant than other places. Water control is probably the main issue. We had an 11 inch rain is 3 hrs once last yr. Its normal here to have 2 or more inch downpours in minutes flooding stuff. No we dont' have hurricanes though.

You['e welcome to come over and visit for a day or two. I'm just trying to help you avoid some mistakes in building here. The kind that would make you slap yourself on the forehead and say "wish I would have know that". We're a few miles north of Lebanon. The soil here is mainly clay and rock. Any black dirt is actually rotted oak leaves and very acidic. Great for growing anything with care. Go sign up for a Master Gardener class as we did to learn the local problems and solutions. If you scrounge around the Lake you can find 4' X4' X 8 ft blocks of boat dock foam insulation for free as they have outlawed them for boat docks. Super insulation for an earth berm house. They'll even help you load your trailer. Get topo maps from the School of Mines in Rolla to help you plan your site. Check for fault lines through the property. Talk to the local well driller for advice on sink holes, water depths etc. Our local driller-Mark- can witch the sink holes.

We know of a house they accidently built over a sink hole and now house is caving in. Across from us is a house with a basement pool--he didn't want a pool. Locals offered advice he didn't listen to. Think of swiss cheese and you will understand our geography. here we hit hard pan 3 ft down and then clay and rock. 1/4 mile east no rock and nice dirt 50 ft down. 1/2 mile west solid rock after 5 ft down. 2 east and one north solid rock after 6 inch down. Can't even drive a fence post.

An old friend from Missouri said I should have dug a 5 acre hole, put a houseboat on it and went fishing.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Pre-electric houses were built with high ceilings and with great attention to air flow, so any small breeze would flow through house with open windows. Shade also important.

I am in NW Arkansas on hilltop. Have grid electric, but havent used air conditioner in several years. House is very shaded and couple small desk fans pointed at me does the job. They would not be hard to run off grid. I am not fond of high humidity, but dont like clammy air conditioned air either.

The other way to go about things is do SUPER INSULATED construction. Knew a person few years back with a super insulated cabin in woods. She heated the cabin entirely with small portable 110V electric space heater. And had to be careful not to OVERHEAT the cabin. It was built very tight and had foot insulation in the walls and couple foot in the attic. 

So I would assume it would take very little to air condition such a super insulated structure either. In other words your little el cheapo window air conditioner wouldnt have to run very much at all and thus could be powered off grid with an inverter.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Rocks........


I agree that age has a lot to do with comfort. I am becoming less enamored with constant 95+ degrees and high humidity every year! :grump:

Building at least partly underground has an incredible effect on temp moderation though. Humidity will be an issue to deal with anywhere at these lower elevations though.

I wanted Colorado or Idaho myself - high and dry. Wife said too cold. After all these years in Texas and Wisconsin, Missouri will seem like a little of both I suspect, just depending on the time of year! 


Tim


----------



## KeithBC (Jul 3, 2010)

Once, in India, I saw a great solar cooling system. The building (a hotel / restaurant) was built around a large brick chimney, about 20 feet in diameter and about 30 feet tall. The hotel lobby and the restaurant had windows that opened into the base of the chimney, which was like a mini courtyard. 

The sun would shine in the top of the chimney, heating the bricks and the air. The air would rise up the chimney, drawing in air through the windows from the lobby and restaurant. The result was a nice cool breeze through the ground floor of the building.

Architectural cooling has been practiced in the middle east for centuries.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

When I was in college in AL we had an old house for storing equipment. It had extra high ceilings and walking into it was almost like walking into air conditioning.

If you design a way to get the sun to pull air through the house cool the incoming air with earth tubes first. I also think a person could bury loops of pipe in the ground so that inside air could be circulated through the loops. That would cool and dry the air as the moisture drops out. Just design a drain into the pipe. The distilled water can be used for lots of things. I worked with a guy who designed a system like that to produce drinking water. He expected it to be full of mold spores and dust but the water was the same as triple distilled so evidently stuff doesn't collect in the water.


----------



## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_chimney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badgir


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhchal


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I was in a cement house with about 18-24 inch walls.The center of the roof had a chimney (really just a roof opening,no more) with a slope from four sides leading to it.It was over 100 degrees outside and that house was cool and comfortable.Built in early 1900's in Los Angeles.Also cement floors with a slight angle so the owner could hose out the floors.Dang slick design.

Been in an old rancho house,built cracker box style of 24 inch cement and grape arbor porches,another very comfy house in 100 plus degree weather in SoCal,also a turn of century build 1900's.They just added wings as family grew,its now a protected landmark,awesome place.


----------



## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

I have been homesteading here in MO for almost 20 years now, I agree a little bit with oldasrocks, MO in a unique place, also agree with tarbe, most things here can be engineered around. My homestead has evolved over the years to suit me, and a desire to live as frugally as possible. oldasrocks is right the humidity here in July and August is terrible, after a couple of years of no air conditioning, I sure like to come in from the outside and sit in a cool house in the heat of the afternoon. It is worth the 40 or 50 dollars it costs to run the thing to me. Since I heat exclusivley with wood, the money I save not paying for heat in the winter more than offsets what i spend on the air conditioner in the summer.
One of the great things about MO is we are still allowed to be individuals here, so tarbe, come on down and join us, build the homestead of your dreams.


----------



## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

The trouble with earth tubes is the volume of tubes needed to actually do any good. Pulling air through the tubes quickly heats up to ground around the tubes rendering them worthless for cooling. I know of a chicken farm that tried that in Colorado. A mile of 8 ft diameter concrete tubes and within a few weeks they were kicking out hot air.

Running tubes through a stream or real deep pond would be a lot better.


----------



## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Id run those earth tubes , just be sure to bury them deep. I don't like the idea of a earth sheltered house though. Id rather put a bit more insulation around my place and get it up into the movement of the air.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

mightybooboo said:


> I was in a cement house with about 18-24 inch walls.The center of the roof had a chimney (really just a roof opening,no more) with a slope from four sides leading to it.It was over 100 degrees outside and that house was cool and comfortable.Built in early 1900's in Los Angeles.Also cement floors with a slight angle so the owner could hose out the floors.Dang slick design.
> 
> Been in an old rancho house,built cracker box style of 24 inch cement and grape arbor porches,another very comfy house in 100 plus degree weather in SoCal,also a turn of century build 1900's.They just added wings as family grew,its now a protected landmark,awesome place.


It's too bad those low energy solutions seem lost on modern builders and architecs.


----------



## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

oldasrocks, your comment about swiss cheese made me think of when they were drilling my well, they ended up going down 325', thru 3 caves to get to water. Ended up having to case my well all 325' because of the caves.


----------



## Ray (Dec 5, 2002)

I've been here in the ozarks for some time, and I can tell you lots of shade, insulate 5 to 10 times what the recommended amount is, have a door facing north to enter and leave in the hot summer. Have a full window wall facing south west that will have heavy shutters inside with close-able curtains. with these adaptations along with the shade trees etc. you can get by till late eve. but consider moving to a low river valley, where it is much cooler year round, and I do mean year round, at least 10 degrees cooler just to be that much lower and closer to the river. best wishes, ray I remember making noises into a small fan back in the hot summers in the 50's so hot you dare not even move in the house. It was over 100 degrees for 4 weeks in a row here in 97. not like texas, but I sure like an AC now, when its like that myself. I just got AC about 9 years ago and I like it, I don't want to go back to the outhouse year round, or take my bath in a galvanized tub with water heated on the wood cook stove any more, or have only several ceiling light bulbs in the house and that be all of your electric. stufing the wood stove in a house that you can nearly see through the walls. awaking in the morning with your tin water glass frozen solid. NO I like the nice things I have now, because I had all the others for too long! Washing clothes outside in the ringer washer every Sat. morning, with water from the cistern cranked up and heated on the cook stove, so hot in the kitchen in the summer from cooking you didn't want to go in there, no indoor bathtub, no hot water heater, no inside toilet, no running water, no outlets, just a few lightbulbs, a couple small fans, we always have a big garden but don't have to count on it to survive anymore like we used too. no more butchering a chicken when the preacher comes to dinner, I know but its the truth, thats what we did, and had to do, by the way nothings better than fresh killed fried chicken! I like my AC and gas furnace, I don't want to cut wood any more, I don't want to go back to that. but that just me, best wishes, ray


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Our house was built pre-electric. We have high ceilings and windows that allow for good air flow, plus skylights have been added. The house has mature trees around it and it never gets too hot.

People existed without A/C for many years, we don't have it and don't need it.

I like your ideas so far!


----------



## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Ray, I totally agree with you. I'm too old to rough it. A lot of people in here are trying to return to the "old days". Been there done that. Yes we have a cellar and can our own veggies but we also have a full house genny that starts 60 seconds after the juice goes down, 2 -500 gallon propane tanks to run it and lots more to live comfortably. A 2nd genny to run the well and as backup for the first one.

We went through the ice storm with no problems. 11 days without outside power. No pipes froze up and even had the internet. If the SHTF we've worked hard and long to be comfortable.


----------



## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Roughing it in a modern house is pretty impossible.

Doing it in an old farm house built for doing so by design and location is not.


----------

