# Astrex Rabbits!!!



## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

=)

We found out that the mini rex we bartered for is actually an Astrex rabbit.

(Rabbits with short, curly, wavy fur).

Which just made his mostly REW litter (which nobody was showing interest in) suddenly take a huge leap up in demand.

Every one of the litter are now reserved and set for new homes.

We're thrilled!

=)

Anybody else have Astrex rabbits? We thought for sure we'd be mostly marketing our colony to the meat market in the area but this find now opens up new possiblities.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

How cool! I don't think there is any kit cuter than the woolly lamb Astrex!


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

:GRIN:

I think I might have to agree!


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## arachyd (Feb 1, 2009)

I'd love to see some pics.


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

Oh you should! They are so cute!

You can see ours here:
http://dumansarkrabbits.webs.com/nestbox.htm
(They are the last litter listed).

We had some a few years back and never should have gotten out of them.

It's just funny that these fell into our lap this time.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

A couple of links for anyone who might enjoy learning more about Astrex rabbits:

http://www.rabbitgeek.com/astrex.html

http://www.elmhurststud.com/astrex.htm


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

i've had mini rex kits born as curly as that, by the time they are adult they grow out of it.
are they astrex if they grow out it?

I'd be hesitant to call them astrex if they grow out of it.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I was told the curly coats were common in rex litters that have poor hair quality. I had some rex coated mutts and all their babies started out with curly coats, which lasted until they were about 10 weeks old or so. They grew out of it with age, but I was told from a rex breeder (or maybe on here) that it's a sign of a lack of density desired in rex coats. They sure are cute though!


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## Devoville (Mar 23, 2009)

Astrex is a name asigned by someone to a gene mutation and doesn't qualify as a "breed" today. In the late 1800's there was a breed called Astrex in the RBC but has since the early 1900's become extinct as I guess the Rex rabbit took over from there. I think its a hideous mutation and there is a lot more going on with those rabbits than outward appearance. Goslings two mini rex parents look like normal mini rex to me. The kits just look like they have poorer coats at this time, although they may improve much like Ladysown's kit did. The rabbits on the link provided by Maggie are very disturbing; I am sorry but that's how I feel. That one white kit is almost totally bald on its head and shoulders and reminds me of hairless rats or those "Baldwin" guinea pigs all of which are mutations carried by both parents.This mutation has been around as long as the rex fur mutation but has never been desirable except to a few hence the reason they are "rare". There are maybe two breeders promoting these and claiming they are an old breed.After all this time one wonders why there are not more breeders/examples of this or some sort of cod on them in ARBA? The lionhead mutation which just recently appeared has become extremly widspread and is in process of becoming recognized by ARBA. Congrats on the sale of the litter and for the price you got, I guess there are people willing to pay for what they think is new or unique, hopefully they will also realize they are still rabbits with the same care requirements as any rabbit out there!:rock::rock:

Ps out of curiosity, did the previous owners of the buck tell you he was an astrex? Does he throw kits like that with other does or just this one, just wondering why its the buck and not the doe that is the astrex rabbit?

Off Topic... the black bunny called Snip I think? with the beautiful shiny fur looks like a Polish or mix thereof and also displays the Bew gene. Polish have awsome 'flyback" fur with that wonderful sheen!


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## klickitat (Dec 26, 2008)

Devoville said:


> I think its a hideous mutation and there is a lot more going on with those rabbits than outward appearance.... The rabbits on the link provided by Maggie are very disturbing; I am sorry but that's how I feel.


 I am new to all of this new breed and show type thing. What I would like to know is what do you see going on. You made statements as though these have a very serious problem. What are the issues with this genetic mutation? 

I ask because I had a dream about rabbits with a curly coat last week and thought it would be fun to try and develop something like that. When I saw this thread, I had to stop and study this out. 

You make comments like you know something about it and so I would love to hear what someone who appears down on this has to say. I like to hear all sides.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Just to clarify, all I did was post a couple of links that I found by doing a google search. One is from our own Rabbitgeek's website, which I consider a reliable source.

There was an interesting thread, with pictures, maybe a year or two ago, but I could not find it. The rabbits in it appeared to me to be healthy and normal... and very cute and curly.

I agree with Kickatat. If you have facts or sources to supplement your post, Devoville, I'd be very interested to see them added to this thread.

Edited to add:
I went back for a better look at the links I posted. I agree that some of the rabbits there seem to have very sparse coats and the one called China Doll seems quite thin.


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## Reauxman (Sep 14, 2002)

As a MR breeder, I often get curly coated rabbits out of certain pairings. After a few weeks the coats go straight. I usually cull when out when they are curly though, as it isn't something I care to contribute to.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Reauxman,

Many Rex breeders have told me the same thing about the curly rex coats. They cull it.

That leads me to believe the curly gene is deeply embedded in the bloodline of many rex.

The curly astrex thing pops up every couple of years as a topic and dies down again.

Have a good day!


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

MaggieJ said:


> There was an interesting thread, with pictures, maybe a year or two ago, but I could not find it. The rabbits in it appeared to me to be healthy and normal... and very cute and curly.


Hmm, I wonder if that was my thread. I do get occasional curly kits in the japanese harlequin litters. Here is the webpage I posted when I had the last litter of curly kits:http://www.downtherabbithole.ca/astrex.html. This litter was from a father-daughter cross.

I did try to raise a doe once, but she developed perpetual sore hocks before she got to breeding age (in spite of resting mats and straw bedding) so I eventually culled her. I haven't tried to keep any since.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

I could well have been your thread, Moonkitten. That curly harlequin kit on the left looks familiar.


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

MaggieJ said:


> I could well have been your thread, Moonkitten. That curly harlequin kit on the left looks familiar.


Wasn't my thread originally, but I think this is the one you are remembering:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=283079


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I don't think this is the 'curly' astrex gene. I think it's just a poor quality rex coat. I have had these too... Here's some pics of a couple. I've had a couple that had coats as curly as your really curly kit pictured. All grew out of it except for a few curly spots on the belly and back of the neck. They are rex mutts, however, and the curly spots are simply signs of a poor rex coat. Yes, as they aged, they had rex coats. 

Here are some of my poor rexes, younger than your really curly kit I'd bet, so not as long haired yet, and still visibly curly. The tan seems to have least curly coat, the tan and white in the background seems to have the most. 










Here's the curly one again, a little older:


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Yes, Moonkitten, that was the thread.  Thanks!


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

An interesting mutation, I think their neat, and I have not heard of any health problems related to the Astrex coat. That one kit does look funky, and appears to be missing fur on its head and ears but its just one kit, not enough to judge all astrex rabbits by. There are some gene combinations in rabbits that do cause deformation and death, like Max factor and doubling up on the dwarf gene, yet those are accepted and sought after. You know what would be really cool, a satinized astrex!


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

mygoat said:


> I was told the curly coats were common in rex litters that have poor hair quality. I had some rex coated mutts and all their babies started out with curly coats, which lasted until they were about 10 weeks old or so. They grew out of it with age, but I was told from a rex breeder (or maybe on here) that it's a sign of a lack of density desired in rex coats. They sure are cute though!


Yes, it is common in the rex and they are often culls due to their poor 'rex' coat - but it all depends on what a person is looking for. One man's treasure and all that =)

Some will grow out of it, but their sire still has the curls on his stomach and along his back, so it will be interesting to see how they progress.

Even if their fur does not remain as wavy as it is now, they are destined for breeding programs and eventually their offspring will have some really nice, cute astrex coats.

PS - your mixes are cute! Yes, these wavy haired animals show up in a few mixes/breeds - astrex breeders find them at flea markets, animal swaps, and pet stores and although not all come with a history, it's nice when they can obtain some sort of pedigree information.

The Astrex group I brought them to were very nice and knowledgable and were kind enough to share stories just like mine - a great group of enthusiasts!


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## DevonGlen (Aug 10, 2009)

If I get my Mini Rex wet, can I market them as Astrex because they become "curly" ?

eta:









Astrex?


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

Honorine said:


> An interesting mutation, I think their neat, and I have not heard of any health problems related to the Astrex coat. That one kit does look funky, and appears to be missing fur on its head and ears but its just one kit, not enough to judge all astrex rabbits by. There are some gene combinations in rabbits that do cause deformation and death, like Max factor and doubling up on the dwarf gene, yet those are accepted and sought after. You know what would be really cool, a satinized astrex!


I agree that some of the rabbits at the other links do have sparser fur - but as mentioned, they are often culled out. The rabbits that some of these breeders have been working with for years are quite adorable, and remind me more of the teddy guinea pigs with their short, curly fur.

It will take years, and a good breed standard, but no, I do not believe there is anything wrong in the health of the animals just because their coats are different.

It may be a cull to the rex but not so different than black labs that were culled out as pups due to a white patch on the chest. Some people like that - and some people like these rabbits.

They are just as healthy as their rex parents - their fur is just not up to 'rex quality'.

But that's not what the Astrex afficianados are striving for anyway.


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## Devoville (Mar 23, 2009)

A health issue has already been mentioned on this thread.. sore hocks. Mini Rex and rex breeders breed animals with an eye to healthy feet. Not only denser fur on the hocks but wider legs/feet (ie. medium bone as opposed to fine boned animals) is one way of preventing it. Sore hocks can also indicate an E.C problem and is also caused by stress within the animal and in its enviroment. So therefore less easily stressed animals are also bred.In other animals with this mutation there are other serious health/ congenital defects that include organs such as the heart. See devon rex or other similar coated breeds of cats. Breeding two merles (dogs) is a no-no because it can cause absence of eyes.What I am saying is mutations of colour or coat may be benevolent or they may come associated with other defects not easily seen. Just the fact that the actual breed has become extinct should say something.This happened in a time when rabbit fur pelts were quite valuable.Sorrry to maggie; I had already seen those links quite a while ago and meant nothing personal to you about it, its still my personal opinion on them.Also there is still only the one lady in Alberta with them after all these years, why? i would say be very careful and proceed with caution! Moonkitten has also provided an example of harlequins carrying the mutation as well. Whether this is "backwash" from interbreeding with rex I don't know. Perhaps the harle was used to introduce harle pattern in Rexes?

Max factor and double dwarf genes are not accepted and sought after as they are both fatal within weeks of birth.One dwarf gene is needed to get a dwarf breed the right size, however if having peanuts bother some then they just make sure one parent (usually doe) does not carry any dwarf gene. Of course then you have a larger amount of unshowable overweight culls.Most nethie breeders cull max factor carriers out of the herd as well.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

No offense take, Devoville... I was being over-sensitive and therefore defensive. :shrug: I'm working on it!

Sore hocks are common in Standard Rex rabbits, so it is not surprising if it also shows up in those with the "Astrex" coats. Any responsible person trying to establish an Astrex strain would cull to remove such animals from their breeding stock. If other health issues surface in this breed, they may not prove viable, but I see no reason not to proceed as long as keeping this in mind. If also breeding for meat, inferior animals are never wasted and there is no temptation to keep any but the best for breeding. It's interesting that the curly coat in Devon Rex cats is sometimes apparently linked to other defects... but cats are cats, and rabbits are rabbits.


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

Devoville said:


> Moonkitten has also provided an example of harlequins carrying the mutation as well. Whether this is "backwash" from interbreeding with rex I don't know. Perhaps the harle was used to introduce harle pattern in Rexes?


According to the American Harlequin Club guidebook, in 1946, the British Harlequin standard included 3 coat types: normal, rex-furred and astrex-furred. I'm not sure when the British Standard dropped these, but ARBA decided to go with just normal fur since it would be an infringement on the Rex breed.

Apparently the gene is still kicking around...


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Devoville said:


> A health issue has already been mentioned on this thread.. sore hocks. Mini Rex and rex breeders breed animals with an eye to healthy feet. Not only denser fur on the hocks but wider legs/feet (ie. medium bone as opposed to fine boned animals) is one way of preventing it. Sore hocks can also indicate an E.C problem and is also caused by stress within the animal and in its enviroment. So therefore less easily stressed animals are also bred.In other animals with this mutation there are other serious health/ congenital defects that include organs such as the heart. See devon rex or other similar coated breeds of cats. Breeding two merles (dogs) is a no-no because it can cause absence of eyes.What I am saying is mutations of colour or coat may be benevolent or they may come associated with other defects not easily seen. Just the fact that the actual breed has become extinct should say something.This happened in a time when rabbit fur pelts were quite valuable.Sorrry to maggie; I had already seen those links quite a while ago and meant nothing personal to you about it, its still my personal opinion on them.Also there is still only the one lady in Alberta with them after all these years, why? i would say be very careful and proceed with caution! Moonkitten has also provided an example of harlequins carrying the mutation as well. Whether this is "backwash" from interbreeding with rex I don't know. Perhaps the harle was used to introduce harle pattern in Rexes?
> 
> Max factor and double dwarf genes are not accepted and sought after as they are both fatal within weeks of birth.One dwarf gene is needed to get a dwarf breed the right size, however if having peanuts bother some then they just make sure one parent (usually doe) does not carry any dwarf gene. Of course then you have a larger amount of unshowable overweight culls.Most nethie breeders cull max factor carriers out of the herd as well.


You are incorrect about the Max Factor gene, it is sought after by ND breeders, as a rabbit carrying one copy of the gene has that perfect look that ND breeders are trying so hard to get. None of the ND breeders I know would cull a Max Factor carrier from their breeding program, as often its the MF carriers that place the highest on the table. As for the dwarf gene normally its the false dwarfs that get culled, and true dwarfs are more often bred together, producing double dwarfs. Yes, some breeders do keep the occasional exceptional false dwarf, but many serious breeders prefer to use their cage space on showable rabbits. This is one of the problems with the BEW Mini Rex, many people insist on breeding BEW to BEW, when they need to be crossed out and good vienna carriers kept and used. Of course that means housing and feeding unshowable rabbits, something many are unwilling to do. Did you know that BEW MR's have immune problems because of this? Its not talked about, that their weaker than the normal Mini Rex, and that they need to be crossed out to enlarge the gene pool, they all seem to go back to the same few rabbits. Perhaps they should not be bred either? I think its a better idea to work to improve them.

Sore hocks can occur in any breed, Flemish are kept on wood to prevent it, hardware cloth isn't the best wire to be used for floors, many factors can and do cause sore hocks. Leave your bunnies nails too long for too long? Bunny gets too heavy? Rabbit goes thru a very heavy moult? Sore hocks can and are caused by both genetic and external conditions, I've seen many breeds with sore hocks that were not rex furred, so thats not a sound argument.

In cats your saying that this coat mutation can cause heart and congenital problems, thats cats, not rabbits. Please show us documentation that these defects have been found in astrex rabbits, as others have asked you for above me. Also cats are companion animals, a serious heart defect in one could be devastating. Luckily in rabbits you can eat your mistakes and start over again.

Merle is not a colour, it is a pattern. The merle gene is a pigment reducer, it acts like bleach, diluting the pigment where it manifests. Breeding merle to merle does not always result in a lack of eyes, or even in deafness or blindness. It can cause varying degrees of smaller than normal eyes, deafness and blindness, but so can the white factoring gene, In fact in breeds that have both merle and are white factored such as aussies the defects in a double merle can be worse. In a breed such as Daschunds(Dapple is merle) that there isn't white factoring often a double dapple looks simply like a single dapple. In fact there are two double dapple AKC Champions that I know of before they were banned from conformation. Then there's Dalmatians, of which 40% are born either unilaterally or bilaterally deaf due to the white factoring gene, standards allows them to have blue in their eyes as well. Guess the whole breed should be allowed to die out because 40% of them are going to be born defective. 

But this thread isn't about dogs, or cats, or coat or colour genetics of those species, excuse the thread drift, its about someone happily sharing news about their new litter and showing others what this coat mutation looks like. Could there be some health problems related to it, sure, but there is with many other genetic mutation/conditions as well. I cringe every time I see an English Bulldog, makes me a little nauseous to see a dog so badly twisted out of its natural canine shape, really it does. And those hairless cats make me want to cry. Seems like a little curl in a rabbits coat isn't anywhere near as big of a deal, not worth panning someone and killing their joy on a public forum. JMHO


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

Honorine said:


> You are incorrect about the Max Factor gene, it is sought after by ND breeders, as a rabbit carrying one copy of the gene has that perfect look that ND breeders are trying so hard to get. None of the ND breeders I know would cull a Max Factor carrier from their breeding program, as often its the MF carriers that place the highest on the table. As for the dwarf gene normally its the false dwarfs that get culled, and true dwarfs are more often bred together, producing double dwarfs. Yes, some breeders do keep the occasional exceptional false dwarf, but many serious breeders prefer to use their cage space on showable rabbits. This is one of the problems with the BEW Mini Rex, many people insist on breeding BEW to BEW, when they need to be crossed out and good vienna carriers kept and used. Of course that means housing and feeding unshowable rabbits, something many are unwilling to do. Did you know that BEW MR's have immune problems because of this? Its not talked about, that their weaker than the normal Mini Rex, and that they need to be crossed out to enlarge the gene pool, they all seem to go back to the same few rabbits. Perhaps they should not be bred either? I think its a better idea to work to improve them.
> 
> Sore hocks can occur in any breed, Flemish are kept on wood to prevent it, hardware cloth isn't the best wire to be used for floors, many factors can and do cause sore hocks. Leave your bunnies nails too long for too long? Bunny gets too heavy? Rabbit goes thru a very heavy moult? Sore hocks can and are caused by both genetic and external conditions, I've seen many breeds with sore hocks that were not rex furred, so thats not a sound argument.
> 
> ...


I could *HUG* you right now - THANK YOU!

I admit I was more than a little horrified to see what happened to this thread - for a moment I thought I might have mistakenly posted to a category other than the Raising Rabbits for Profit. :GRIN:

Originally, I figured I might share my good news here about the market for these normally culled animals.

I'm glad some took my original post for what it was - THANK YOU AGAIN!!!


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Ah but Gosling this is no longer the Raising Rabbits for Profit forum, there was a sort of coup and Tracy decided to step down. So now its a combo sort of forum, and hopefully all of us can try and get along, pet folks, profit, meat and show breeders. I think some took offense at your asking $50 each for them, I'll be thrilled for you if you can get it. There's so little money in raising rabbits I just can't begrudge anyone making a bit back to buy food, which we all know is where it goes. I took a bunch of rabbits over to TSC today for their Rabbit Days, got $10 each and was happy with that. Most were Florida Whites, some pure Mini Lops, Mini Rex, one even was a BEW and some Thrianta Mini Lop crosses, cute little boogers. I'd have gladly sold them for $50 each if I could have, these are hard times, and you have to make ends meet the best you can.

There are true Astrex out there, yes I too have had some MR kits be curly when young and it went away. However I've never had kits as curly as Goslings. I think that Astrex is another coat mutation that could with work be a viable breed, I'm very open minded when it comes to such things. If someone doesn't like The Astrex coat thats fine, or has personal experience to share or scientific data to back up their statements, awesome. We still all need to work to get along, and not alienate each other, or let our emotions dictate our words. This is one of the main forums that I frequent, I would be really unhappy if a pets only mentality took it over completely and I no longer could post here for fear of being lambasted. 

I'd really like to see pictures of the kits when they are older Gosling, to see if they kept their curls, I'm a genetics freak and I'm excited to see how it turns out for you!


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

Oh no! I didn't realize there was any trouble - didn't even realize the forum name change. 

Well, regardless, thank you for stepping in with a cool head and I will post updates. 

Thanks!


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## DevonGlen (Aug 10, 2009)

Honorine said:


> You are incorrect about the Max Factor gene, it is sought after by ND breeders, as a rabbit carrying one copy of the gene has that perfect look that ND breeders are trying so hard to get. None of the ND breeders I know would cull a Max Factor carrier from their breeding program, as often its the MF carriers that place the highest on the table. As for the dwarf gene normally its the false dwarfs that get culled, and true dwarfs are more often bred together, producing double dwarfs. Yes, some breeders do keep the occasional exceptional false dwarf, but many serious breeders prefer to use their cage space on showable rabbits. This is one of the problems with the BEW Mini Rex, many people insist on breeding BEW to BEW, when they need to be crossed out and good vienna carriers kept and used. Of course that means housing and feeding unshowable rabbits, something many are unwilling to do. Did you know that BEW MR's have immune problems because of this? Its not talked about, that their weaker than the normal Mini Rex, and that they need to be crossed out to enlarge the gene pool, they all seem to go back to the same few rabbits. Perhaps they should not be bred either? I think its a better idea to work to improve them.


Max Factors are NOT sought after by Netherland Dwarf In fact entire lines get culled by high end ND breeders if they show up in litters.

Max Factors are:

* Being Born with their eyes open.This usually will result in blind rabbits. Also, the eyes my become severely infected because they were open in the birth canal.

* Twisted Limbs The front and/or back legs can be twisted and deformed, making it difficult for the rabbit to get around.

* Flipper Like Feet the Toes often times look like frog feet. They appear flatter and fatter than normal, but this "frog-like" look is usually enhanced by the twisted limbs.

* Extra Toes some Max Factor kits will inherit extra toes on the front and/or back leg.

* Soft Fur if allowed to develop, many of the Max Factors have a very soft fur due to the lack of guard hairs.

If allowed to live, the rabbit will require much care and attention because it's mobility and sight will severely be hindered. If mobility is hindered the chances of that rabbit reproducing are slim to none.

I am sorry but you are way off there. It is just cruel letting them live. Anyone purposefully breeding for them should be shot.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Honorine said:


> You are incorrect about the Max Factor gene, it is sought after by ND breeders, as a rabbit carrying one copy of the gene has that perfect look that ND breeders are trying so hard to get. None of the ND breeders I know would cull a Max Factor carrier from their breeding program, as often its the MF carriers that place the highest on the table. As for the dwarf gene normally its the false dwarfs that get culled, and true dwarfs are more often bred together, producing double dwarfs. Yes, some breeders do keep the occasional exceptional false dwarf, but many serious breeders prefer to use their cage space on showable rabbits.


I have to respectfully disagree. The Max Factor gene is not sought after by ND breeders. There is a DWARF gene that is sought after by ND breeders.

The Max Factor gene is very damaging and I would not want it in my herd. Usually the MF kits die, so they cull themselves, but it is still a major bummer to have these in the litter. If it were to live, it would not be showable.

Breeding dwarf/dwarf means some double dwarf kits are born, known as peanuts, which usually die. If they lived they would be unshowable since they would be below the minimum weight.

Serious breeders who prefer to use their cages for showable would do better than to collect Max Factors and Peanuts.

Some less than serious breeders who don't like peanuts will keep a false dwarf doe to breed to positive dwarf bucks, to get some dwarfs, some false dwarfs and zero peanuts.

We got involved in breeding for rabbit shows first with NDs. Since it was my sons' 4H project, we studied genetics and breeding practices. We also had access to some of the top breeders of ND in the country for questions and advice at rabbit shows in our area, who are very generous in spending time with youth breeders.

My sons looked forward to reading the Dwarf Digest every month to see if they made it into the sweepstakes rankings for youth exhibitors. They never made it to top ten, but they had fun just making the list.

EDITED TO ADD: To clarify, peanuts, hippos, and max factors are a side effect of breeding for the dwarfing gene. The top breeders are not intentionally breeding to get them. These rabbits do occur because of breeding for the effect of the dwarfing gene. If you don't like fooling with the dwarfing gene, try the Polish breed. Small rabbit, not dwarf so no peanuts in the litters.

Just my observations of rabbit raising.
Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios
Sacramento, Calif


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## AllEarsRabbitry (Feb 15, 2010)

I had a max factor kit once back when I raised Hollands, lived a few hours then died. It's hind legs were webbed together and just funky, eyes were open, and it was hairy. Anyway, I have never heard of max factor being desirable. 

As for astrex, they are rare but they are out there. I had one, his name was Marvin - he was opal. At first we thought he was a mini rex cross and he could have been, but even as an adult he had long krimpy looking hair. I don't know how to explain it and doubt I have pics. He didn't live long with me either, but who knows how old he was when I got him. 

Anyway, good luck with your babies =)


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## AllEarsRabbitry (Feb 15, 2010)

Wait - no pnuts with Polish? Hmmm - then I'm glad hubby wants a few. It really sucks when you wait 31 days for a litter and you get an entire litter of pnuts. I had one in my most recent litter of fuzzies - only one out of 6 though, thankfully.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Yes, no peanuts with Polish, unless somebody has crossed a dwarf into the line, which has been known to happen.

Polish are selected for smallness, not dwarf gene. So usually no chance of peanuts. They are to look like a small rabbit, not round like a dwarf.

Have a good day!


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## Falls-Acre (May 13, 2009)

My personal take is your rabbits likely are not Astrex... yet. There are people in the US that are making headway with the Astrex as a breed. It is a mutation that the best examples of died out a long time ago. So people are having to start with what they can find and improve them. When the Rex mutation was first recognized, there were only a few people that liked them, thought them desirable, and sought to improve them. Most people referred to them as 'Wrecks'. The Astrex are no different. I myself once worked with them. I had a very nice example in my barn, a harlequin that remained curly through adulthood. I sold his offspring quite cheaply. When I was accosted by some of those who were trying to increase numbers for selling them too cheaply without consulting them first (gee, didn't realize at the time that I was required to share my sales decisions with other people), I decided it was not the breed for me. So I sold them all.

I think that one baby probably has the best shot at holding some of the curl. Breeding that one to another curly rabbit can increase the chances. Over time, you would probably have good examples of true Astrex.  Regardless of all that, it looks like a cute litter and I'm glad you were able to market them in such a way that you were able to see some profit from it.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

DevonGlen said:


> Max Factors are NOT sought after by Netherland Dwarf In fact entire lines get culled by high end ND breeders if they show up in litters.
> 
> Max Factors are:
> 
> ...


You don't have to agree with me, but here many of the ND breeders are willing to chance doubling up on the gene because a rabbit carrying both the normal dwarf gene and one copy of the Max Factor gene can be a typier rabbit, and often does better on the table. I just had this conversation at PASRBA with a number of longtime breeders, about how the ND people have cut their own throats with their rabid competitiveness, now their entry numbers are way down at shows and few want to enter the breed. Holland Lop people are brutal too. Mini Rex folks aren't the most cheerful group either. Some people will do whatever they have to to win, I've seen it a lot around here, it may be different in other parts of the country. 

Lets clarify, a rabbit who inherits two copies of the Max Factor gene has the problems you've listed above, a rabbit who inherits one copy of the MF gene and the normal dwarf gene has a longer tuft of fur on the top of their head making their ears appear shorter, often the fur is softer and thicker in texture, and they usually have longer hair around the jowl area, making the head look larger and fuller. I've been shown the difference, and it is noticeable. Thats why some breeders are willing to chance defective kits, for that one perfect rabbit. Doesn't make it right, but for some people the win is everything. Its also not talked about very openly, there are those who will deny its in their rabbitry and condemn it but it is. Also these days theres no guarantees that you won't get peanuts with Polish, but thats a whole other can of worms. 

There's a dark side to rabbit showing, like any other competitive sport.

Franco you must hang out with a classier crowd than I do


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Gosling I'd like to apoligize for the thread drift and tone that your thread has taken on, it was not my intention to cause controversy and discord. So anyone who wishes to is welcome to contact me privately, but I will not argue ethics, not my own or anyone esles.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Honorine, as a 4H rabbit project leader, I tried to teach the highest standards of herdsmanship to the youth members. Winning is not everything. Other people can do it the way they want to, and best wishes to them.

I have been lucky to have been in touch with top breeders who were willing to push youth breeders toward practices that minimize the peanuts and hippos, because that kind of bummer in the litters discourages youth breeders.

Gosling, I hope you have fun with the Astrex. I setup the Astrex page on my site to provide some info on the variety since there was very little info available. For a long time the only web page was posted by a woman who claimed to own the name Astrex and threatened to sue anybody who used the name. 

That kind of attitude probably chases away more potential breeders and developers than anything else. So I got annoyed by her attitude and setup the webpage. I got another threat a few months ago. She still doesn't have a legal basis for her claim. Astrex was a breed in the British Rabbit Council Standard Of Perfection and it was rabbit judge from UK who sent her a copy of the BRC Standard for Astrex.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

rabbitgeek said:


> For a long time the only web page was posted by a woman who claimed to own the name Astrex and threatened to sue anybody who used the name.


 LOL! And that Web site hasn't been updated in six years!


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## Devoville (Mar 23, 2009)

None of thse sites have been updated and a lot of the links are no longer working!
Interesting about the BEWs.We had some of those in Mini rex and they all had problems. They came from different top lines (unrelated) yet all had immune problems and aggression as well. They only mini rex to ever bite me was a bew buck. They have all been culled and we are no longer interested in the colour even though we had got some very good type and density of fur. We also had a VC carrier that had poor health and didn't make it past being a weanling,yet his adopted sibling (full mr) that shared his cage and ate the same food was fine and healthy. I have also heard reports of Lionheads having seizures but have never had them or do I know too many breeders that even have them. So yes being rabbits we can cull/ eat our mistakes but that leaves little back for breeding if there is a problem and might explain one of the reasons Astrex are somewhat extinct.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~jabuck/WARCI/rare_breeds.htm

This is a link to an Australian rabbit club


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