# Kinder vs Mini Nubian?



## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

Hello!

I've been a member awhile now and have browsed the website. It's a wonderful place, and I've found that I've fallen in love with goats. :nanner:

I love how productive they can be, producing milk, fiber, and meat. Pretty versatile species! Anyways, I'm looking into dairy goats. And after the does are bred, they will give birth to kids. (All the kids will be purebreds and have papers when sold unless sold for meat.) What kids sell better? Do Kinders sell better? Mini-Nubians?

Please note I'm not crazy about butterfat or max milk production, so it really comes down to that single factor as to who will produce better selling kids. 

EDIT: For future posters, I'm looking for a smaller goat that doesn't take up much space or eat much while producing a nice amount of milk for me. I will not be breeding my does seriously. They will be strictly milk-producing pets and only bred to produce milk unless I suddenly get the spur to become a goat breeder, which I doubt.

I asked this question because I thought that Kinders and Mini-Nubians barely had a difference minus the fact that they come from basically the same breed that had been seriously bred to be different from each other to the point where they did become different breeds. So, I thought that because they were so similar, I was wondering which one sold better.


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## mcjalison (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm new to the world of goats, so others can probably offer better advice. From what I've seen, Kinders sell for about $250 and Mini-Nubians about the same. I'd see what's available near you, how far you want to drive or how much you're willing to pay for transport.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

I don't know - but I'd suggest checking Craigs List and see if anything is listed. 
You could check here and see if anyone near you could talk with you
*kindergoat*breeders.com

greengables*mininubians*.com


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Kinders are, IMO, less likely to be good dairy animals. They are still highly variable due to lack of interest and very recent 'creation' of the 'breed'. Nubians are a dairy breed, but lowest producers of standard breeds on average - and in development of a breed, one would hope the 'best' nubians would have been used but something tells me that is not likely to be the case, especially not consistently.  The pygmy aspect pulls in the supposed 'meat' aspect - but no pygmy breeder I've ever met is serious about breeding for meat traits. Pygmies are plagued with tiny teats, short lactations, and oftentimes kidding and metabolic problems. Kinders, being a recent mix, may be inconsistent so some may be more like nubians, more like pygmies - and highly subject to the individuals that are 'behind' them. I don't think I've ever met a serious kinder breeder, nor seen many I've been terribly impressed with. They're in there with my generalized opinion of any 'dual purpose' breeds - they usually do both jobs poorly or inconsistently.  An added headache, they're probably going to be very hard to find when you need new genetics, and genetic progress will be unbearably slow and likely highly variable as well. 

Mini nubians are at least a cross between two dairy breeds, but the quality of 'what you get' will vary HIGHLY. Some nigerians have managed to impress me, but many more have not. Nigerians are small and cute, and therefore are absolutely plagued by breeders who are just out there making more, without a single dairy oriented goal - as long as they're blue eyed and 'flashy' colored, they're saleable to people who want pets or don't know better.  These are unfortunately also the little bucklings often sold as 'great herdsires' by a lot of people who wouldn't know a great herdsire if it bit them on the rear. Now before mini goat people get mad, I know not all breeders are like that... I commend those raising quality dairy animals. You've gotta know what you're looking for is my experience. 

If your goal is dairy, then MILK should be considered a goal. Kids are mostly a side effect. You don't do the industry, yourself, your buyers or your animals any good by breeding solely for producing kids. The goal should always be structurally sound, productive animals. Purebred, registrable, valuable animals sell the best and generally end up in better homes than average culls do, IMO. 

My suggestion is decide your goals with raising goats. You'll get kids as a side effect either way.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

My experience with the mini-Nubians, which would be more accurately called a Nigerian Nubian cross, is that they are small, there isn't much room for a milk pail under them, and you need to be a genetically modified human crayfish hybrid to be able to milk them effectively due to the teat size of some of them. As for selling them, if they aren't spotted and don't have blue eyes, you better be prepared to give them away.

There do exist mini Nubians that have been selectively bred down from small purebred Nubians, but the vast majority are crossed. 

Never had Kinders, but they look an awful lot like what used to be called a pygmy.

If you have never milked before, I would suggest buying a fresh doe, of whatever variety tickles your fancy, so that you can see how it milks for you, teat size and all that. If breeding a bunch of first fresheners, it might be wise to have a quality milk machine at your disposal, or plan on having surplus and dam raising some of them and picking out the most milkable.

I don't know how old you are, or anything about you, but I will just say that I have seen people that decided to get goats later in life, when things like arthritis and old injuries, carpal tunnel, etc. made it hard to build up the hand strength required for regular milking. These types of situations can make it challenging to milk "normal teated" does, let alone some of the teats that are possible on a first freshening small breed.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

mygoat said:


> Kinders are, IMO, less likely to be good dairy animals. They are still highly variable due to lack of interest and very recent 'creation' of the 'breed'. Nubians are a dairy breed, but lowest producers of standard breeds on average - and in development of a breed, one would hope the 'best' nubians would have been used but something tells me that is not likely to be the case, especially not consistently.  The pygmy aspect pulls in the supposed 'meat' aspect - but no pygmy breeder I've ever met is serious about breeding for meat traits. Pygmies are plagued with tiny teats, short lactations, and oftentimes kidding and metabolic problems. Kinders, being a recent mix, may be inconsistent so some may be more like nubians, more like pygmies - and highly subject to the individuals that are 'behind' them. I don't think I've ever met a serious kinder breeder, nor seen many I've been terribly impressed with. They're in there with my generalized opinion of any 'dual purpose' breeds - they usually do both jobs poorly or inconsistently.  An added headache, they're probably going to be very hard to find when you need new genetics, and genetic progress will be unbearably slow and likely highly variable as well.
> 
> Mini nubians are at least a cross between two dairy breeds, but the quality of 'what you get' will vary HIGHLY. Some nigerians have managed to impress me, but many more have not. Nigerians are small and cute, and therefore are absolutely plagued by breeders who are just out there making more, without a single dairy oriented goal - as long as they're blue eyed and 'flashy' colored, they're saleable to people who want pets or don't know better.  These are unfortunately also the little bucklings often sold as 'great herdsires' by a lot of people who wouldn't know a great herdsire if it bit them on the rear. Now before mini goat people get mad, I know not all breeders are like that... I commend those raising quality dairy animals. You've gotta know what you're looking for is my experience.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thank you so much! Are you a gift sent by the heavens, or am I just fantastically lucky to have met you?! :happy2:

Huh. About Kinders & Mini-Nubians, I never ever thought about that. That was pretty eye opening! But we do have a LARGE variety of Mini-Nubian breeders listed on the MDGA so I'm sure at least one would have what we're looking for, right? Not so sure about the Kinders though, with only a handful available, and even less allowing buck service.

On terms of goals, I by no means want to produce crappy goats. However, I won't be a serious breeder, making my own line, etc. This is strictly for personal consumption and maybe giving some extra out to friends and family. The extra kids would really have to be sold as pets or meat... I don't think I'm at that level of husbandry to use the goats that I raised as meat.

Though, I never meant to sound like I was simply a kid producer. Not in any such way! I just heard that they're such a big side effect OF dairy goats that it had to be importantly considered, which, I think (though, when it comes to goats, what I think is merely outsider assumption) is correct... I don't quite have the space to have a whole pasture of simply goat kids running around! And like I said, eating my goatlings is something I need to be ready for.

But, of course, when breeding, making sure the kid is a sound kid will always be on my mind! 



barnbilder said:


> My experience with the mini-Nubians, which would be more accurately called a Nigerian Nubian cross, is that they are small, there isn't much room for a milk pail under them, and you need to be a genetically modified human crayfish hybrid to be able to milk them effectively due to the teat size of some of them. As for selling them, if they aren't spotted and don't have blue eyes, you better be prepared to give them away.
> 
> There do exist mini Nubians that have been selectively bred down from small purebred Nubians, but the vast majority are crossed.
> 
> ...


Wow... Looks like everything I've read doesn't seem to be that true, I guess.

And I never planned on getting a FF! (I think that means First Freshener, right?) I was actually going to look at does that had been freshened at least once or twice, maybe with her kid... I would never milk a FF without experience unless her teats were already big from the start.

-----

With all of that above, I'm wondering, what are good goats to go with for someone without THAT much room and doesn't want to be drowned in milk? I like dairy, sure, but to milk half a gallon on OAD milkings seems an awful lot to deal with. I'm very much interested in cheese making and soap, though. And butter. Gotta love butter! :happy2: Or, for someone that is interested in making cheese, soap and butter, is half a gallon not a lot?

Oh, and since @mygoats requested my goals:

>>Gallon of milk/week (not from each individual goat)
>>Cheese, butter, greek yogurt
>>Soap (for a family of three, but I use a bar about the size of Dove in three months)
>>Doesn't take up that much space

That's not in any particular order, really, but I have a strong preference for a smaller sized goat. They don't take up as much space, eat as much, and I would like other animals to be on my land too. I also feel that a bigger sized goat would be a bit more intimidating. The rest of my family isn't too keen on a 36 inch tall goat with horizontal pupils staring into their soul.


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## marusempai (Sep 16, 2007)

For cheesemaking, a gallon of milk is not a lot. Depending on what kind of cheese you are making, you can figure on a pound to a pound and a half of cheese out of each gallon of milk. Greek yogurt, depending how far you strain it down, you will get half a gallon to three quarts of yogurt per gallon of milk. Soap making does not take a ton of milk, a gallon would make LOADS of soap. To give you an idea, we have four small children, and are not big milk drinkers - last year we were bringing in a gallon and a half plus PER DAY, I made lots of cheese and yogurt, some soap and lotion, and we never had to throw away milk. If you are going to get into dairying beyond drinking milk, you will be absolutely amazed at how much you go through!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Oberhaslis are not real big, and they are an actual breed. They are in serious decline, as well. It is also possible to find Lamanchas that aren't intimidatingly large.

A half gallon of milk is not very much when you try to do something with it. By the time you drain off the whey, you are looking at a serving or two of many dairy products, and you will likely decide, eventually, that following all of the steps and dirtying all of the equipment would be much more productive on a larger batch.

There are a lot of mini-nubian breeders out there. They seem to be all the rage. While I'm sure some people are trying to select for milking traits, they probably don't sell many for that purpose. Most breeders that I have seen were looking at it as a kid sales enterprise. Blue eyed and spotted is what sells. If a half a gallon a day is your goal, it might take several to meet that goal.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> Oberhaslis are not real big, and they are an actual breed. They are in serious decline, as well. It is also possible to find Lamanchas that aren't intimidatingly large.
> 
> A half gallon of milk is not very much when you try to do something with it. By the time you drain off the whey, you are looking at a serving or two of many dairy products, and you will likely decide, eventually, that following all of the steps and dirtying all of the equipment would be much more productive on a larger batch.
> 
> There are a lot of mini-nubian breeders out there. They seem to be all the rage. While I'm sure some people are trying to select for milking traits, they probably don't sell many for that purpose. Most breeders that I have seen were looking at it as a kid sales enterprise. Blue eyed and spotted is what sells. If a half a gallon a day is your goal, it might take several to meet that goal.


I pretty much agree, 

After getting some ND's- and I looked for a long time to find quality dairy animals that were'nt put together backwards- I've found that the largest time investment in milking is cleaning all your milking stuff. 

It literally takes about 1.5 minutes to milk. It takes about 10 minutes each time you milk in total to put the milker together, take it apart, clean it, the stand, whatever the milk touches, etc. And I get about a quart per milking, or a half gallon a day (with kids on). And yes, hand milking those tiny teets is for the birds. My doe actually has very large teets for an ND, but they are no where close to the size of a standard goat's. 

Just something to think about. If you want enough milk to make cheese and everything, more goats or a bigger goat is proabably best.


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## mcjalison (Mar 17, 2016)

I can't speak to what a mini-Nubian can produce, but I have Kinders, and a half gallon wouldn't take several does. I'd say two "should" be able to meet that with OAD milking. I know a Kinder owner who gets a gallon with TAD milking, but I'm not sure I'd count on that kind of production with every Kinder.

If I was in need of more milk, I'd be tempted to get a Lamancha. I've heard they are so sweet and not drama queens like Nubians can be.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

You could not pay me to own any "mini" animal, especially one that requires milking. I have Oberhaslis, and I don't know that I would ever own any other breed of goat after owning them.

They're full sized goats, but not on the larger end like Saanens. They are quiet. They're not a breed to holler their fool heads off when they see you. They aren't very energetic, like many goats. What I mean by this is that they'll still try to push through a gate if they think they need to get through the other side, but they aren't going to jump a 4' fence for sport. They milk a decent amount, but aren't going to drown you in milk. I get a gallon a day per goat, normally. 

Oberhaslis can be hard to find. Even harder to find is one with decent genetics and a decent udder. They tend to not have the greatest udders compared to some of the other breeds, but there are nice ones out there, for sure.


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## dfr1973 (Apr 19, 2012)

June2012 said:


> With all of that above, I'm wondering, what are good goats to go with for someone without THAT much room and doesn't want to be drowned in milk? I like dairy, sure, but to milk half a gallon on OAD milkings seems an awful lot to deal with. I'm very much interested in cheese making and soap, though. And butter. Gotta love butter! :happy2: Or, for someone that is interested in making cheese, soap and butter, is half a gallon not a lot?
> 
> Oh, and since @mygoats requested my goals:
> 
> ...


First, about butter ... you will need a cream separator to do that. Goat milk doesn't separate like cow milk does. When I do up a batch of yogurt, that takes 2 qt, but making milk most recipes (for home use!) use either 1 or two gallons, up to 4 gallons (16 qt). Add in the idea you'll want to use your milk in 2-3 days due to degradation of quality the longer it sits. The butterfat content does count in butter and milk yield - just throwing that out there.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Oberhaslis are not real big, and they are an actual breed. They are in serious decline, as well. It is also possible to find Lamanchas that aren't intimidatingly large.
> 
> A half gallon of milk is not very much when you try to do something with it. By the time you drain off the whey, you are looking at a serving or two of many dairy products, and you will likely decide, eventually, that following all of the steps and dirtying all of the equipment would be much more productive on a larger batch.
> 
> There are a lot of mini-nubian breeders out there. They seem to be all the rage. While I'm sure some people are trying to select for milking traits, they probably don't sell many for that purpose. Most breeders that I have seen were looking at it as a kid sales enterprise. Blue eyed and spotted is what sells. If a half a gallon a day is your goal, it might take several to meet that goal.





MDKatie said:


> You could not pay me to own any "mini" animal, especially one that requires milking. I have Oberhaslis, and I don't know that I would ever own any other breed of goat after owning them.
> 
> They're full sized goats, but not on the larger end like Saanens. They are quiet. They're not a breed to holler their fool heads off when they see you. They aren't very energetic, like many goats. What I mean by this is that they'll still try to push through a gate if they think they need to get through the other side, but they aren't going to jump a 4' fence for sport. They milk a decent amount, but aren't going to drown you in milk. I get a gallon a day per goat, normally.
> 
> Oberhaslis can be hard to find. Even harder to find is one with decent genetics and a decent udder. They tend to not have the greatest udders compared to some of the other breeds, but there are nice ones out there, for sure.


Aren't Obers known or stereotyped at least to have bad tasting milk? I've heard that a good number of them have the "goaty" tasting milk that people don't quite appreciate. And, do they eat a lot in comparison to how much milk they put in the pail? Also, do you know where I could find a list of breeders in the US, or more favorably, in California?



DisasterCupcake said:


> I pretty much agree,
> 
> After getting some ND's- and I looked for a long time to find quality dairy animals that were'nt put together backwards- I've found that the largest time investment in milking is cleaning all your milking stuff.
> 
> ...


Oh... I didn't think it'd take that much milk to make cheese. I was thinking some mozzarella since I love string cheese and maybe some chevre?



dfr1973 said:


> First, about butter ... you will need a cream separator to do that. Goat milk doesn't separate like cow milk does. When I do up a batch of yogurt, that takes 2 qt, but making milk most recipes (for home use!) use either 1 or two gallons, up to 4 gallons (16 qt). Add in the idea you'll want to use your milk in 2-3 days due to degradation of quality the longer it sits. The butterfat content does count in butter and milk yield - just throwing that out there.


Yes, I am going to invest in a butter separator! :happy2:



mcjalison said:


> I can't speak to what a mini-Nubian can produce, but I have Kinders, and a half gallon wouldn't take several does. I'd say two "should" be able to meet that with OAD milking. I know a Kinder owner who gets a gallon with TAD milking, but I'm not sure I'd count on that kind of production with every Kinder.
> 
> If I was in need of more milk, I'd be tempted to get a Lamancha. I've heard they are so sweet and not drama queens like Nubians can be.


I also love the butterfat percentages of Kinders, and read that they make more cheese compared to other goats because their milk has more protein in it. One of the reasons I was first interested in them...


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

I can share that we have two Nubian does that were FFs this year. After 10 weeks we have retained two kids - one doe and one wether & sold the other 2. We are milking our FF's each morning and the kids are with the Mom's all day and in a separate pen at night. We're getting a half gallon or more a day and there are just the two of us. We leave the house about 6:00 am, feed the kids and socialize with them in their pen, rake out the pens, feed the chickens, feed the buck and his wether pal, open the back barn door, milk both girls (by hand), move the girls & kids outside to the pasture and are back in the house by 6:30 am. No milking equipment to clean up other than the pail and the funnel we use to pour it into recycled gallon vinegar bottles.
At first it seemed like a lot of milk but... the chevre flavored with onion/garlic/italian spices is part of lunch most days (on rye bread is my fave) and my version of ricotta makes a great add to Italian meals. Yogurt has been a challenge to make to our liking, but now that we have it figured out - yum. Whey from cheese making goes in the homemade bread and I've just started making Cajeta. I made baked apples with cajeta for a potluck and it was hoovered up in no time. DH drinks the milk and uses it in his coffee. I put the milk on my oatmeal every morning and use it for cream sauces, cooking and baking - somehow we always manage to use the milk :happy2:

I don't think we'd be happy with a mini unless we decided to have a goat as a pet. 
Hope the additional perspective helps.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

mzgarden said:


> I can share that we have two Nubian does that were FFs this year. After 10 weeks we have retained two kids - one doe and one wether & sold the other 2. We are milking our FF's each morning and the kids are with the Mom's all day and in a separate pen at night. We're getting a half gallon or more a day and there are just the two of us. We leave the house about 6:00 am, feed the kids and socialize with them in their pen, rake out the pens, feed the chickens, feed the buck and his wether pal, open the back barn door, milk both girls (by hand), move the girls & kids outside to the pasture and are back in the house by 6:30 am. No milking equipment to clean up other than the pail and the funnel we use to pour it into recycled gallon vinegar bottles.
> At first it seemed like a lot of milk but... the chevre flavored with onion/garlic/italian spices is part of lunch most days (on rye bread is my fave) and my version of ricotta makes a great add to Italian meals. Yogurt has been a challenge to make to our liking, but now that we have it figured out - yum. Whey from cheese making goes in the homemade bread and I've just started making Cajeta. I made baked apples with cajeta for a potluck and it was hoovered up in no time. DH drinks the milk and uses it in his coffee. I put the milk on my oatmeal every morning and use it for cream sauces, cooking and baking - somehow we always manage to use the milk :happy2:
> 
> I don't think we'd be happy with a mini unless we decided to have a goat as a pet.
> Hope the additional perspective helps.


Did you eat a lot of dairy before goats or after getting goats, have you been converted to the amazing world of dairy? (I wish I ate that much dairy too.) Right now, our daily consumption of dairy is only in cereal for two people, yogurt, and two individual string cheeses. We also don't bake a lot unless it's for a holiday, like cornbread and muffins.

I'd love to have a Nubian...but I heard that they're extremely noisy. Are they for you? We have Nubian breeders everywhere here, and I love the butterfat percentage!


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## marusempai (Sep 16, 2007)

Nubians *can* be noisy. However many are not, and it will depend on your tolerance for baby goats that sound like human children. They vary quite a lot from herd to herd. Around here screamers get their butts sold.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

June2012 said:


> Aren't Obers known or stereotyped at least to have bad tasting milk? I've heard that a good number of them have the "goaty" tasting milk that people don't quite appreciate. And, do they eat a lot in comparison to how much milk they put in the pail? Also, do you know where I could find a list of breeders in the US, or more favorably, in California?


I've read Obers have the closest tasting milk to cow milk, so I really think that's all subjective. I had one doe with "goaty" milk, but it turned out she had a subclinical case of mastitis. Treated her, and it cleared right up. Haven't had that issue since. 

The American Dairy Goat Association (ADGA) has a list of members for each breed and state.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

@June2012, you said: Did you eat a lot of dairy before goats or after getting goats, have you been converted to the amazing world of dairy? (I wish I ate that much dairy too.) Right now, our daily consumption of dairy is only in cereal for two people, yogurt, and two individual string cheeses. We also don't bake a lot unless it's for a holiday, like cornbread and muffins.

actually DH did a lot of dairy and became lactose sensitive and had to give up most of it. We went with goats because he can tolerate the milk. We are eating more dairy items now that I can make them at home. Reduces the grocery bill and uses what we're growing. (I also forgot that we're making ice cream and my version of sour cream as well). 

I'd love to have a Nubian...but I heard that they're extremely noisy. Are they for you? We have Nubian breeders everywhere here, and I love the butterfat percentage!"
Of our 6 Nubians: We have one doe that is very noisy when she's in heat and pretty silent the rest of the time. Our herd queen does call for us when she see us or if we're late to the milking stand, but it's not terribly loud. The babies so far call to Mom and our buck and his wether pal call to us when they see us, but typically they are pretty silent. We have neighbors on both sides of us and we periodically ask them if anything is bothering them and the only thing they hear is the rooster.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

[No message]


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

marusempai said:


> Nubians *can* be noisy. However many are not, and it will depend on your tolerance for baby goats that sound like human children. They vary quite a lot from herd to herd. Around here screamers get their butts sold.


Huh. I also did read that Mini-Nubian were more efficient than Nubians in terms of feed to milk conversion. I think the consensus to be 2/3 production and half the feed or something like that. Do you think that's simple nonsense? And thank you for your help. I've been seriously enlightened!



MDKatie said:


> I've read Obers have the closest tasting milk to cow milk, so I really think that's all subjective. I had one doe with "goaty" milk, but it turned out she had a subclinical case of mastitis. Treated her, and it cleared right up. Haven't had that issue since.
> 
> The American Dairy Goat Association (ADGA) has a list of members for each breed and state.


Maybe I was thinking about Toggenburgs? Not sure, but I'll taste the milk of the doe I'm buying, so if she has goaty milk, I could move right over anyway.
I couldn't find the list on the ADGA. I would appreciate it if you could possibly link me to it, but thank you so much for your help!



mzgarden said:


> @June2012, you said: Did you eat a lot of dairy before goats or after getting goats, have you been converted to the amazing world of dairy? (I wish I ate that much dairy too.) Right now, our daily consumption of dairy is only in cereal for two people, yogurt, and two individual string cheeses. We also don't bake a lot unless it's for a holiday, like cornbread and muffins.
> 
> actually DH did a lot of dairy and became lactose sensitive and had to give up most of it. We went with goats because he can tolerate the milk. We are eating more dairy items now that I can make them at home. Reduces the grocery bill and uses what we're growing. (I also forgot that we're making ice cream and my version of sour cream as well).
> 
> ...


Thank you!!! I don't think you quite know how thankful I am for all of your replies.  the information is provided!

I'll be looking into Obers, LaManchas, and Nubians!


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## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Hello
I am looking at things posted from a little different angle.
#1 don't go with any mini breed....
#2 go with full size real goat breeds.
#3 Obers are a nice breed
#4 I have experience with Nubians (Yes they can yell like a kid getting beat)
#5 I have Alpine X Wethers that are in training to be Pack Goats.
Something to think about for your bucklings, socialize/imprint them and sell them as hiking companions. I am "Promoting" Pack Goats.
Just got a nice Alpine X Saanen Buckling for free form a neighbor that milks.
He is going to be a big goat.
A lot of hikers/outdoor people are looking to goats to carry a load so they don't have to.
#6 a "Typical" in shape goat no matter the breed/ X can carry up to 25% of their body weight.
Call it for normal size milking goat type 25-30 pounds of gear.
Mini's can not do that or keep up with your normal walking speed.
Go for a full size goat.
#7 You can take a goat onto most all State/City Parks as long as you comply with leash rules in effect for Dogs.. I have 4 "Expeditions" this spring with my goats and never a complaint from "City Folk" even when their dogs were off leash.
#8 Goats are a viable pack animal they use them out west to pack camp gear to remote sites for hunting and environmental research were horses and mules can not go. They feed off the land unlike horses and mules were part of the load has to be "Horse" feed. 
Yes, I have horses too and have been in the back country with them. 
Now days I'll take a string of goats when I go camping.
#9 Goats can be trained to dive and pull a cart or wagon (Small)
#10 Do your research and find good big milking goat blood lines, Alpine,Saanen,Obers, Nubian, do not look at minie's or meat type goat breeds.


Have to go have the new boy here to feed Alpine X Saanen Pack Goat to be.
Happy Trails
hihobaron Fuzzy Pete and Sam


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

On the efficiency thing, with the minis I really don't see how the people breeding those things can make any sort of claim. They are hybrids of varying degrees, there are all sorts of genetic outcomes, and it will take quite some time before there are any consistent trends. My guess is that their herd book will stay open for so long that there will never be any real consistency.

While finding pack goat sales might be dicey, depending on your area, there is definite advantages to having larger wethers. That will make up half your kid crop. When we had a bunch of mini nubian wethers that were plain colored and didn't have blue eyes, so they were picked over by the pet buyers, we called our normal Mexican fellow. He took one look at those things and shook his head. We said, just make us an offer. He said they didn't have enough meat to be worth getting his hands dirty. This was in fall with spring born kids. I can't blame him, there is more meat on a rabbit. We sent them to a really good goat market that usually gives top prices. The things barely broke even on the shipping fee. We had regular size wethers the same age bringing 80 or 90 bucks, the minis were in the 15 range.

I pack-goated when pack goating wasn't even cool. I have even pack goated with that guy with the hard to spell name that invented it. He always said Nubians weren't any good for packing. That is probably true of the west coast nubians, but some of the old dual purpose lines on the east coast can pack or cart. Just like the noise thing, all nubians are not the same. I had a very nice Nubian pack wether, he would go all day. Some of our Nubians might cry a lot, but if you are over ten feet away you would not hear them. More of a whisper. Very genetic. Screamers leave here.


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## marusempai (Sep 16, 2007)

I've heard that minis and ND are more efficient as well, but I've never seen any data to back it up, and frankly kind of doubt it. Commercial goat dairies all use full sized breeds - if minis/ND were more efficient, wouldn't you see more of them in commercial dairies? Anyway it's not worth the chance of more efficient production to me to have to deal with those tiny teats. I love my Nubians. Nice big solid goats, milk well, teats are large and easy to milk. And yeah, if my kids ever talk me into raising some packers, I get a bunch of wethers for free every year anyway. XD


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

marusempai said:


> I've heard that minis and ND are more efficient as well, but I've never seen any data to back it up, and frankly kind of doubt it. Commercial goat dairies all use full sized breeds - if minis/ND were more efficient, wouldn't you see more of them in commercial dairies? Anyway it's not worth the chance of more efficient production to me to have to deal with those tiny teats. I love my Nubians. Nice big solid goats, milk well, teats are large and easy to milk. And yeah, if my kids ever talk me into raising some packers, I get a bunch of wethers for free every year anyway. XD


On the packers, there is potential for some nubians to lay down and or scream when placed under load or hitched to a cart. Some people think all of them do it, but not all. But it does happen. Some of the west coast stuff will do it, and there is one popular eastern line that is known for showing well, fairly productive, very large, but also noisy and just generally blotchety that will lay down on you.

There is something to be said for an animal with more body capacity, that way if something goes wrong, they have more reserves to draw on while being managed through the issue at hand. Probably the reason there aren't any minis in commercial settings. Efficiency isn't just about feed in milk out.


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## Rosepath (Feb 18, 2011)

Having had Nubians in the past, I am seriously sold on our Oberhasli girls. And I don't think it's Obers you have heard of for off-tasting milk, it's Toggenbergs. But anywho,
don't make plans to get any particular breed of goats until you've milked a few. It would be like deciding on a make and model of car to buy before you'd learned to drive. Backwards.
The mini-breeds seem to be (cattle included) to be the latest fad, kind of like alpacas, and before that who could forget pot-bellied pigs and emus? You'll be happier with a breed that will perform for you, instead of making life not so great (trying to milk a very small creature, with very small teats, is not my idea of anything remotely fun). Visit some breeders and get to know the differences in what's out there, it will be time well spent.
And remember goats are herd animals, so one alone doesn't make for happy times on the farm.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

June2012 said:


> I couldn't find the list on the ADGA. I would appreciate it if you could possibly link me to it, but thank you so much for your help!


I'm sorry, now that I think about it I'm pretty sure you have to be a member to get the directory. :smack


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I own & raise Mini nubians & have for the past 6 years! It is a labor of love & we really LOVE our goats. They are not noisy like some people say nubians are & actually not all standard nubians are noisy. Some are some aren't.
When we used to raise Nigerians they were as noisy as our Mini Nubians.

My Minis are registered, disease tested annually & I only buy from disease tested herds.
I put a lot of time & Love into my goats. I don't have 1 that I milk that when milked twice a day after babies are weaned that I don't get at least a gallon from each goat a day.
I have 1 right now that I milk once a day, never pull her kids from her but she is such a high producer for me that I am still getting 4 pounds & 13 ounces with her kids on her & that is just 1 milking a day.

Mini's are definitely not too small to get a bucket under, That's why I switched to the mini nubians because our Nigerians were too short & to tell you the truth if I am going to milk I want some quantity. A quart or 2 a day from a nigie isn't worth it to me.

Before you decide on breeds check with some reputable mini breeders, depending on your area, disease testing, registered, etc. you can get good money for your kids & you can always eat your extra bucks or kids from any breed of goat.
I sell my kids starting at $250. through $600. each depending on sex & generation, breed characteristics, etc.

Miniature Dairy goat association will give you a directory of breeders in your area & you don't have to be a member to see the directory.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

hihobaron said:


> Hello
> I am looking at things posted from a little different angle.
> #1 don't go with any mini breed....
> #2 go with full size real goat breeds.
> ...


Wow! I did NOT think of that!  Amazin' read right there. ^.^ And, if I were to imprint them, does that mean bottle feed or can I have them be dam-raised? I feel that as long as they're heavily socialized and interacted with, things shouldn't be too difficult from there. Thoughts?

EDIT: OMG! that goat on his lap IS SO ADORABLE! thank you for the cuteness overload 



barnbilder said:


> On the efficiency thing, with the minis I really don't see how the people breeding those things can make any sort of claim. They are hybrids of varying degrees, there are all sorts of genetic outcomes, and it will take quite some time before there are any consistent trends. My guess is that their herd book will stay open for so long that there will never be any real consistency.
> 
> While finding pack goat sales might be dicey, depending on your area, there is definite advantages to having larger wethers. That will make up half your kid crop. When we had a bunch of mini nubian wethers that were plain colored and didn't have blue eyes, so they were picked over by the pet buyers, we called our normal Mexican fellow. He took one look at those things and shook his head. We said, just make us an offer. He said they didn't have enough meat to be worth getting his hands dirty. This was in fall with spring born kids. I can't blame him, there is more meat on a rabbit. We sent them to a really good goat market that usually gives top prices. The things barely broke even on the shipping fee. We had regular size wethers the same age bringing 80 or 90 bucks, the minis were in the 15 range.
> 
> I pack-goated when pack goating wasn't even cool. I have even pack goated with that guy with the hard to spell name that invented it. He always said Nubians weren't any good for packing. That is probably true of the west coast nubians, but some of the old dual purpose lines on the east coast can pack or cart. Just like the noise thing, all nubians are not the same. I had a very nice Nubian pack wether, he would go all day. Some of our Nubians might cry a lot, but if you are over ten feet away you would not hear them. More of a whisper. Very genetic. Screamers leave here.


Thank you so much! I think I can consider that... Bigger, I guess with goats, means better? lol. And... I live on the West Coast, so I guess that means I have a higher chance of getting some bad Nubians? Then again, good research on my part would lessen that. Thank you!



marusempai said:


> I've heard that minis and ND are more efficient as well, but I've never seen any data to back it up, and frankly kind of doubt it. Commercial goat dairies all use full sized breeds - if minis/ND were more efficient, wouldn't you see more of them in commercial dairies? Anyway it's not worth the chance of more efficient production to me to have to deal with those tiny teats. I love my Nubians. Nice big solid goats, milk well, teats are large and easy to milk. And yeah, if my kids ever talk me into raising some packers, I get a bunch of wethers for free every year anyway. XD


:walk: doesn't seem like a bad idea, i guess! 



Rosepath said:


> Having had Nubians in the past, I am seriously sold on our Oberhasli girls. And I don't think it's Obers you have heard of for off-tasting milk, it's Toggenbergs. But anywho,
> don't make plans to get any particular breed of goats until you've milked a few. It would be like deciding on a make and model of car to buy before you'd learned to drive. Backwards.
> The mini-breeds seem to be (cattle included) to be the latest fad, kind of like alpacas, and before that who could forget pot-bellied pigs and emus? You'll be happier with a breed that will perform for you, instead of making life not so great (trying to milk a very small creature, with very small teats, is not my idea of anything remotely fun). Visit some breeders and get to know the differences in what's out there, it will be time well spent.
> And remember goats are herd animals, so one alone doesn't make for happy times on the farm.


Probably!
No, I won't be setting my heart on a specific breed of goat until I meet breeders, of course. (Minus Angora goats...I need them in my life regardless!) I just don't want to be ready for goats, then have to research when I have the perfect setting waiting for me. haha! And, unfortunately, I live in Southern California. If I compared the number of dairy goat breeders from here to there, I would suspect that we are a simple handful in comparison. I don't mind traveling four hours or whatever, one way, but I'd really like to get to know the breeds that *seem* to be for me and venture out that far for a quality animal. And thank you for introducing me to Obers!!! I know I need an Angora and a LaMancha (the earless look...can't get over it!), but don't know who the third goat will be! If I even need a pair of dairy goats, that is. :bored:



Backfourty said:


> I own & raise Mini nubians & have for the past 6 years! It is a labor of love & we really LOVE our goats. They are not noisy like some people say nubians are & actually not all standard nubians are noisy. Some are some aren't.
> When we used to raise Nigerians they were as noisy as our Mini Nubians.
> 
> My Minis are registered, disease tested annually & I only buy from disease tested herds.
> ...


Huh. Thank you for this. Really. It's pretty mind blowing to have so many different responses in one thread!

----

All in all, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EVERYTHING! If you have more advice, pour it on me. I think I really need a :idea: moment LOL

So, if you'd like to know, right now, I'm just thinking. I was first drawn to Nigerian Dwarfs because they breed year round = year round supply of milk. However, they really don't produce that much unless you drop serious money for a very small amount of milk. That led to Mini-breeds and I thought it was a good alternative, but really thinking about it, I want to make cheese, cream, butter and so many things I thought I didn't care about. But oh, I love it all. Just don't eat it because I'm so afraid of high cholesterol levels! (Bad genetics. sigh.)

Anyways, so far:
Obers
Nubians
Mini-Nubians? Kinders? <--- Really don't know what to do with these buggers. I like'm, then I don't. Deary me.

All in all, I think I just have to meet some goats and see what flows. I think I'll pick Nubians (or an amazing Nubian cross) over Obers, and maybe if the heavens open up I'll find a super Kinder/Mini-something.

Also, if my English or something is messed up, it's almost 1 AM with me writing a reply about goats instead of sleeping :kung:


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## LomahAcres (Jan 21, 2007)

Having raised both mini-nubian and kinder goats for a number of years - I can honestly say the kinder goat is my favorite among all breeds  

Selling kids side by side - they sell about the same rate same price range. Kinder can be harder to find in some areas. 

I prefer the kinder because of the pygmy meat breed cross tends to make for a hardier easier keeper goat, my first breed to recommend to the first time goat owner. In general my kinders had less mineral needs and over all better health and hardiness from my mini nubians and full size girls (Nubian, Saanen, and Alpine), though mini-nubians still seam a bit hardier than full size. 

If going with any cross breed mini goat - look for something that is 1st - 3rd generation - as they will be more likely to have a higher milk yield and be a true 'cross' for some reason - the farther into the generations you get - the dwarf breed side of things seams to start overtaking, getting slowly smaller and smaller goats with less milk production. 

What to expect ? I have a first gen kinder doe who peaks at 8lbs and milks through for 2 years still giving 4-5lbs milk at dry off after 18-22 months lactation. My best mini nubian peaks at about 6-7lbs (She only has one working half of an udder!!) and goes the normal 10 month lactation. These are both the best of the best - most of my kinders & mini-nubians give about 6 lbs a day for the normal 10 month lactation - so it just depends on your lines. 

Kids also seam hardier - grow out faster and need less milk than my standard kids, more resistant etc. so that is a plus for us as well.  Higher multiples are sometimes more common which can mean more income from sales of kids.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

LomahAcres said:


> Having raised both mini-nubian and kinder goats for a number of years - I can honestly say the kinder goat is my favorite among all breeds
> 
> Selling kids side by side - they sell about the same rate same price range. Kinder can be harder to find in some areas.
> 
> ...



I think my mini nubians are very hardy. We have 1st generation all the way through 6th generation purebreds & I have a purebred doe now in milk with twins still on her that has been milking over 4 pounds in the a.m. without separating her kids at all from her.
I have another 4th generation that is giving me almost 5 pounds a.m. & almost the same for p.m. milkings.
A 3rd generation doe of mine when milking twice a day gives well over a gallon a day but she still has kids on her & I am not separating them yet.

I think if you want to breed any goat then it's best to do your research. Ask breeders about milk amounts on dam & sire's side, udder pictures, disease testing annually, etc.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

To the three that replied, my goodness, thank you for yhe encouragement!  That's amazing. I think it comes down to an extensive work of research, I guess... We'll see. Thinking about it now, the number of goats just keep getting bigger in inventory! I thought I could go with a pair of dairy, but then I need a fiber goat, but I want two does for milk... Now this! I want a smaller size, but standards sound pretty great. XD Maybe I can forget the sheep and garden to just go with goats.

I think my plan right now is a LaMancha, Nubian, Angora and Kinder. I'll be working out the kinks for what I want versus what I need, lol.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

LomahAcres said:


> Having raised both mini-nubian and kinder goats for a number of years - I can honestly say the kinder goat is my favorite among all breeds
> 
> Selling kids side by side - they sell about the same rate same price range. Kinder can be harder to find in some areas.
> 
> ...


If you're comfortable, can you tell me where you purchased these lines? And what about meat? Are the wethers, if not sold as pets already, good enough to be meat? Are your numbers from TAD milkings or OAD? I really love either Kinders or Mini-Nubians due to their ability to breed year-round, more so with Mini-Nubians because I can always pull up a really cute Mini-Nubian buck and sell them as pets. :spinsmiley: And when you meant "selling kids side-by-side" did you mean selling the Kinders and Mini-Nubians side-by-side?



Backfourty said:


> I think my mini nubians are very hardy. We have 1st generation all the way through 6th generation purebreds & I have a purebred doe now in milk with twins still on her that has been milking over 4 pounds in the a.m. without separating her kids at all from her.
> I have another 4th generation that is giving me almost 5 pounds a.m. & almost the same for p.m. milkings.
> A 3rd generation doe of mine when milking twice a day gives well over a gallon a day but she still has kids on her & I am not separating them yet.
> 
> I think if you want to breed any goat then it's best to do your research. Ask breeders about milk amounts on dam & sire's side, udder pictures, disease testing annually, etc.


Are these your exceptional girls, and if you're comfortable, where did you purchase them? How do they sell as pets?

And I am DEFINITELY doing my research.


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## LomahAcres (Jan 21, 2007)

> If you're comfortable, can you tell me where you purchased these lines? And what about meat? Are the wethers, if not sold as pets already, good enough to be meat? Are your numbers from TAD milkings or OAD? I really love either Kinders or Mini-Nubians due to their ability to breed year-round, more so with Mini-Nubians because I can always pull up a really cute Mini-Nubian buck and sell them as pets. :spinsmiley: And when you meant "selling kids side-by-side" did you mean selling the Kinders and Mini-Nubians side-by-side?


We bought most of our kinders form a herd in MO that is no longer raising them. They had lines in MN and WA that were pretty good - but I dont remember the names of them right now  I sold most of my kinders off now and really miss them - they went down to a breeder in Baldwin, KS who is on the KGBA list. We are not on official milk test - as much as I would like to be  these are just are own barn records. 

What I mean side by side is that when we have both mini-nubian and kinder kids in a group for sale - they sell at about the same pace - we dont have more of a demand for one or the other. Kinder will dress out better for meat purposes - we usually raise a few wethers every year for the freezer. Mini's and Kinders are usually more colorful and because of their size, in our area, they sell better for pets then our standard goats. If I were to get back into kinders I think I would just look for a nice pygmy buck for my Nubian girls and start my own lines  

As it is we still have one kinder doe and two mini nubians - Mostly standard nubians - a mini-nubian buck - and a nigie buck that lets me breed first gen nubians and alpines (we have standard alpine does as well  ) We switched over to larger girls because most of our milk is being used to make soap these days and not many milk customers. Kinder milk is better for drinking, but that is just an opinion  We may end up going back over to mini's/kinders the next few years just because we miss them and they are in general easier keepers.


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

LomahAcres said:


> We bought most of our kinders form a herd in MO that is no longer raising them. They had lines in MN and WA that were pretty good - but I dont remember the names of them right now  I sold most of my kinders off now and really miss them - they went down to a breeder in Baldwin, KS who is on the KGBA list. We are not on official milk test - as much as I would like to be  these are just are own barn records.
> 
> What I mean side by side is that when we have both mini-nubian and kinder kids in a group for sale - they sell at about the same pace - we dont have more of a demand for one or the other. Kinder will dress out better for meat purposes - we usually raise a few wethers every year for the freezer. Mini's and Kinders are usually more colorful and because of their size, in our area, they sell better for pets then our standard goats. If I were to get back into kinders I think I would just look for a nice pygmy buck for my Nubian girls and start my own lines
> 
> As it is we still have one kinder doe and two mini nubians - Mostly standard nubians - a mini-nubian buck - and a nigie buck that lets me breed first gen nubians and alpines (we have standard alpine does as well  ) We switched over to larger girls because most of our milk is being used to make soap these days and not many milk customers. Kinder milk is better for drinking, but that is just an opinion  We may end up going back over to mini's/kinders the next few years just because we miss them and they are in general easier keepers.


I was hoping for something closer! XD I don't think I'm willing to drive that far for newbie goat experience lol. And, even though it's a shame you're not on official records, I still believe your records! 

Though, if I'm going to just either sell the kids, maybe it'd be wiser of me to have a Nubian doe and breed her to a pygmy or ND buck when she is in heat? As you can see, I'm still undecided in between the two. Milk wise, I find that both are pretty similar with the Kinder being stockier and producing more kids. Is that right? I have no idea what really sells in my area, but on Craigslist, I see more Mini-Nubians or standard Nubians more for sale. So, I guess there's a small market for Kinders here?? I also do agree that size would be pretty important, but I can see the logic in having standards goats as pack goats. I'm going to get at least one standard and at least one smaller sized, so that should help the crave. XD

I'm curious. Why do you breed your nigie buck to your FF girls?


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## LomahAcres (Jan 21, 2007)

June2012 said:


> I was hoping for something closer! XD I don't think I'm willing to drive that far for newbie goat experience lol. And, even though it's a shame you're not on official records, I still believe your records!
> 
> Though, if I'm going to just either sell the kids, maybe it'd be wiser of me to have a Nubian doe and breed her to a pygmy or ND buck when she is in heat? As you can see, I'm still undecided in between the two. Milk wise, I find that both are pretty similar with the Kinder being stockier and producing more kids. Is that right? I have no idea what really sells in my area, but on Craigslist, I see more Mini-Nubians or standard Nubians more for sale. So, I guess there's a small market for Kinders here?? I also do agree that size would be pretty important, but I can see the logic in having standards goats as pack goats. I'm going to get at least one standard and at least one smaller sized, so that should help the crave. XD
> 
> I'm curious. Why do you breed your nigie buck to your FF girls?


First generation mini's not first fresheners  Although I do like breeding my nubian girls to the smaller buck the first time as well. One - they are usually just a little shorter than my older girls and therefore easier for the nigie/pygmy buck to reach, and second - kids are normally smaller at birth so first time girls have it a little easier with delivery as well  

Kinders are not everywhere - maybe they just haven't made it to your area yet - chance are that if mini's are selling - kinder kids should sell good as well. 

They do have a facebook group, you might be able to find a breeder there closer to you ?


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## June2012 (Apr 7, 2016)

LomahAcres said:


> First generation mini's not first fresheners  Although I do like breeding my nubian girls to the smaller buck the first time as well. One - they are usually just a little shorter than my older girls and therefore easier for the nigie/pygmy buck to reach, and second - kids are normally smaller at birth so first time girls have it a little easier with delivery as well
> 
> Kinders are not everywhere - maybe they just haven't made it to your area yet - chance are that if mini's are selling - kinder kids should sell good as well.
> 
> They do have a facebook group, you might be able to find a breeder there closer to you ?


Ah, I see. I can see the logic in that. 

I guess so. I guess I'll decide when I get my goats, lol!

I did find a breeder about a two hour drive or so away from me, but at the same time, I have two Mini-Nubian breeders closer. Hm.... I guess less competition with Kinders?

Overall, thank you so much.  I don't think I can quite express how happy I am with this newfound research! ^.^


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Are these your exceptional girls, and if you're comfortable, where did you purchase them? How do they sell as pets?

And I am DEFINITELY doing my research. [/QUOTE]


No, I wouldn't say they are my exceptional girls but they are some of my best milkers. I expect all my does' to give a gallon a day or pretty close to it on twice a day milkings but I am lucky & have some good lines & have a few that milk over a gallon a day.

I have bought from a few different breeders & have certain lines that I like.
Check www.miniaturedairygoats.net for the membery directory for breeders in your area.
I bet you can find some out west that aren't too far from you with does' that are great lines with lots of milk.

I sold all my kids this year without ever listing them for sale, that is including wethers for 4H & pets just from my reservation list & word of mouth. I have 2 doeling's left to sell after my list & will list them shortly.


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## DaisyDuke (Nov 21, 2017)

LomahAcres and June2012 now that it's a few years down the line, how are your Kinder's doing? Do you still keep Kinder's? What would you have done differently? Any new advice or opinions for someone thinking of getting into keeping Kinder goats?


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