# Firewood.



## LostCaper (Oct 10, 2016)

One of my favourite things to do is process firewood. I sell some to make a bit of extra money. I have been doing it for 40 years so there is tricks to the trade but it does have some risk as can be seen in my video. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_goWst3odzG__lSzhb91bw


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## ed/La (Feb 26, 2009)

Looks like an interesting YouTube channel. I check it out when I can


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## JerryJimmy (Apr 18, 2017)

Im glad you posted this. I've had a few questions about getting into firewood processing for a while.
I've been given the opportunity to clear a small woods. The woods has a few types of trees in it, but I'm concerned about the large number of dead Ash Trees in it. I was wondering if the Ash Borer decreased the value of the hardwood as firewood. And since the market is so saturated with the dead Ash Trees, could you advise me on how to create or find a market for my product? Should I just store my product until it's worth more?
I live in eastern Indiana; Where the majority of Ash Trees are dead; Which is why the market is intimidating.


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## ed/La (Feb 26, 2009)

It is nice to put your general location so people easily know what part of country you live. People can give better answers. Hard to sell a lot of fire wood in the deep south. I am not in the business but standing dead trees are probably dry and ready for uses this season. If fire wood does not sell lower your price a little or change your marketing. I would not store dry wood waiting for price increase. When you sell some wood get their number and check back now and then for repeat business. You might only need 10 or 20 regular customers. Hopefully the original poster comes back with reply. Good luck


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Nothing better than ash. 
But the ignorant state foresters wind up on TV every fall telling folks that white oak dried three years is the only thing acceptable. 
My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak. Most people that know wood well enough to know what it is will be glad to see it.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Around here Firewood can no longer be brought in by Campers so everyone is cutting for sale to them. They are selling Small bundles for a Dollar a Stick.

I can get all my Firewood on Government Lands I just can't sell it. Right now for couple years I cutting around the House.

There is a Big Cutter that just uses Logs runs them through a machine that cuts a Log into Firewood in a couple minutes. They have their Wood inspected and can ship out of state.

big rockpile


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## JerryJimmy (Apr 18, 2017)

I won't be able to sell diseased firewood out of the county. Don't see what harm would come of it, being in the middle of the affected area.
They sell bundles here at filling stations and supermarkets; about the same price.


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## ed/La (Feb 26, 2009)

When cold out people park on busy street with truck or trailer load of wood ready to deliver when someone buys it. Once you build a customer base you probably will not have to do that. I would want my customers within 20 miles or so not a county away. The original poster does have some good videos on the subject. I would think he could answer all your questions.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Nothing better than ash.
> But the ignorant state foresters wind up on TV every fall telling folks that white oak dried three years is the only thing acceptable.
> My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak. Most people that know wood well enough to know what it is will be glad to see it.


The Emerald Ash Borer, inadvertently imported from China, has killed many millions of Ash trees. The spread of this invasive pest has been enhanced by folks ignoring the transportation ban on Ash products, mostly firewood. After being dead for three years, the insect has hatched and is gone. Only after the likelihood of spreading this pest has past is it acceptable to transport Ash to uninfected areas.

The mental rush some folks feel in going against any government restriction pales by the billions of dollars lost through the spread of insect pests.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HayPoint why was that directed at me ?
I don't Have a problem with the transport regulations. 
Since I'm a fan of ash I think anything we can do to help save them is worthwhile. 
I have a problem with ignorant college educated mavins spouting nonsence. 
Most fireplace owners would probably be better off with cottonwood than oak !


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak.


Your advice is to lie about what you're selling.



AmericanStand said:


> I have a problem with ignorant college educated mavins spouting nonsence.


But lies are ok.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Your advice is to lie about what you're selling.
> 
> 
> But lies are ok.


 Nope eastern white oak is a trade name. It's used extensively around here for hardwoods other that white oak. 
When a person should be reliable and uses the truth to spreads lies via the media that is the worst kind of lie. 
Surely you are familiar with the art of deception via the truth ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope eastern white oak is a trade name. *It's used extensively around here* for hardwoods other that white oak.


It's still a lie, no matter how "extensively" it's repeated.



AmericanStand said:


> When a person should be reliable and uses the truth to spreads lies via the media that is the worst kind of lie.


A liar is a liar no matter how they go about it. 



AmericanStand said:


> Surely you are familiar with the art of deception via the truth ?


That has nothing to do with this context.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Emerald Ash borer started to spread from near Detroit, over 15 years ago. Took a few years to find out what was killing the Ash trees. Ash is such a great firewood, all the city folks hauled it to campgrounds around the state, infecting campgrounds and spreading from there.

Canadian government sought to halt the spread by cutting a swath several miles wide across the peninsula. But people transported infected wood beyond the clear zone.

In Michigan, people were not allowed to haul any firewood into the Upper Peninsula. The state provided drop off enclosures for the wood, on both sides of the Mackinac Bridge. Inspection stations were manned around the clock. But enough people weren't going to let the government tell them what to do, so the Upper Peninsula has lost millions of Ash trees.

Often when someone starts off with how stupid the government employee (Forrester)is, it brings to mind those that violate quarantines.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> But people transported infected wood beyond the clear zone.


Maybe someone told them it was "eastern white oak" so they thought it was safe.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

JerryJimmy said:


> Im glad you posted this. I've had a few questions about getting into firewood processing for a while.
> I've been given the opportunity to clear a small woods. The woods has a few types of trees in it, but I'm concerned about the large number of dead Ash Trees in it. I was wondering if the Ash Borer decreased the value of the hardwood as firewood. And since the market is so saturated with the dead Ash Trees, could you advise me on how to create or find a market for my product? Should I just store my product until it's worth more?
> I live in eastern Indiana; Where the majority of Ash Trees are dead; Which is why the market is intimidating.


Make your own boards, it'll help sell quicker. Did it with cedar and that stuff was gone!


AmericanStand said:


> Nothing better than ash.
> But the ignorant state foresters wind up on TV every fall telling folks that white oak dried three years is the only thing acceptable.
> My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak. Most people that know wood well enough to know what it is will be glad to see it.


So now your encouraging the breaking of laws and deception? Your a walking talking contradiction. Lie about the wood and spread the diseased crap, intelligent.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You are right I'd forgotten about the danger of people transporting firewood long distances. 
In my experiance selling firewood I delt with the other extreme so much it hadn't occurred to me people might move it after their dealer had stacked it for them. 

But this is another example of the so called experts causing a problem. 
They have spent so many years spreading the lie that white oak is the best firewood and thus the only wood that people should buy that the industry has countered with strategies that could cause a problem in the days of the emerald ash borer. 
But I suppose that's why all the rules and signs prohibit moving FIREWOOD not just ash wood. 
Weirder still the evidence seems to point to EAB originally entering in lumber and the movement of lumber isn't prohibited. 
I once had a nice load of hickory sticks (1x1 and 1x2 type scraps) in my pickup to take to Alaska for fish smoking. 
The Canadian Border had already released me when the customs guy asked what I was going to do with all the little sticks of lumber. 
He truly seemed sorry when I told him and he then had to confiscate it since it was no longer lumber but firewood. 
Funny how things work out.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> So now your encouraging the breaking of laws and deception? Your a walking talking contradiction. Lie about the wood and spread the diseased crap, intelligent.


 Yes I often encourage breaking laws and deception. 
How is that a contradiction ?
Sometimes it's the only way to deal with a overreaching deceptive government.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have to laugh at the inspection point on both sides of the Mackinaw bridge manned around the clock comment.
What year was that they were doing it? All the ash at my UP deer camp is dead and peeling the bark off showed the tell tale tracks the EAB made. I have been deer hunting an d fishing in the UP since back in the 1970's and cross the Big Mac never ever saw any inspectors nor was I ever asked by any one if I had fire wood in the truck.
Just crossed the bridge again in May going north and again no inspectors or questions about carrying fire wood.

I am going on my 7th year of cutting dead ash for my home heat. As long as it is still standing it is pretty solid wood to split and burn and gives off a lot of heat. I make it a point to cut up any that comes down in storms as quickly as I can.
Around here Ash fire wood sells from 45 to 60 a face cord 4'x8'x18" and is normally stacked up near the road with a sign, on Craig's list, local new paper ad and signs on bill boards in restaurants farm stores and other business that have a bill board.
Storms blew down part of the top of this tree 4 years ago, another part 2 years ago and I cut this down in February.










 Al


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have to laugh at the inspection point on both sides of the Mackinaw bridge manned around the clock comment.
What year was that they were doing it? All the ash at my UP deer camp is dead and peeling the bark off showed the tell tale tracks the EAB made. I have been deer hunting an d fishing in the UP since back in the 1970's and cross the Big Mac never ever saw any inspectors nor was I ever asked by any one if I had fire wood in the truck.
Just crossed the bridge again in May going north and again no inspectors or questions about carrying fire wood.

I am going on my 7th year of cutting dead ash for my home heat. As long as it is still standing it is pretty solid wood to split and burn and gives off a lot of heat. I make it a point to cut up any that comes down in storms as quickly as I can.
Around here Ash fire wood sells from 45 to 60 a face cord 4'x8'x18" and is normally stacked up near the road with a sign, on Craig's list, local new paper ad and signs on bill boards in restaurants farm stores and other business that have a bill board.
Storms blew down part of the top of this tree 4 years ago, another part 2 years ago and I cut this down in February.










 Al


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> They have spent so many years spreading *the lie* that white oak is the best firewood and thus the only wood that people should buy that *the industry has countered with strategies *that could cause a problem in the days of the emerald ash borer.


That's not a lie.
It's based on actual tests of BTU outputs and wood density.
It's "the industry" who lies, according to you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes I often encourage breaking laws and deception.





AmericanStand said:


> *How is that a contradiction ?*
> Sometimes it's the only way to deal with a overreaching deceptive government.


You whine about others telling lies while being a liar yourself, according to your own words.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Here's a comparison chart 

https://chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> I have to laugh at the inspection point on both sides of the Mackinaw bridge manned around the clock comment.
> What year was that they were doing it? All the ash at my UP deer camp is dead and peeling the bark off showed the tell tale tracks the EAB made. I have been deer hunting an d fishing in the UP since back in the 1970's and cross the Big Mac never ever saw any inspectors nor was I ever asked by any one if I had fire wood in the truck.
> Just crossed the bridge again in May going north and again no inspectors or questions about carrying fire wood.
> 
> ...



The inspection station and firewood containers started about 12 years ago. It was on the property of the Welcome Center in St. Ignace. The billboard signs went up 10 years ago. The firewood containers and expressway signs remain at the Mackinac City welcome center. For years a notice was posted at the toll booths.

Every truck hauling logs, chips and lumber were stopped, inspected and if any Ash logs or lumber with bark were discovered, turned around. Wood chips under 1/16 inch were considered safe and requirements in place to process the chips the day of arrival.

Hundreds of cords of firewood were taken and incinerated.

Since identifying individual sticks of Ash in a bundle or truck load of firewood was difficult, all firewood was banned.

Once numerous infestations were located in the UP, the inspection station closed.

I thought the same as you, as long as it is standing, you have years to make firewood out of it. However, most sawmills have given up buying ash, since so many are not sound. I have Ash trees 2 feet across, fall over, full of ants. The Ash is coming down, fast.

The inspection station operated in conjunction with a livestock inspection. Lots of cattle go to Green Bay for slaughter and UP summer pasture. Also, they checked Coggins papers for horses and scrapie tags for sheep. Cattle were checked for RFID tags and insure cattle from Michigan’s tuberculosis areas were not moved to the UP.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes I often encourage breaking laws and deception.
> How is that a contradiction ?
> Sometimes it's the only way to deal with a overreaching deceptive government.


And then you'll gripe later when some a**hat steals from you or buys groceries on food stamps and buys booze with their cash instead of paying for their food. That's what makes you a walking talking contradiction or hypocrite. Your no different than the lying cheating politicians.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Can we see a show of hands of those that have 
Never lied and would not lie to save their parents , children or spouses lives ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's not a lie.
> It's based on actual tests of BTU outputs and wood density.
> It's "the industry" who lies, according to you.


 See there you are ! You have just proven how the uneducated and dim of wit are misled by the professional government mavins. 
I haven't seen the chart you're referring to but I would almost bet that it will show White Oak is having the greatest or almost the greatest BTU density. 
Of course lots of other species have even greater BTU density Osage Orange for example. 
But is that what it takes to be the best firewood?
Only in a very few specialized instances is that the case. 
Perhaps cleanliness is important to you in which case almost any of the other oaks would be better than white oak and within a few percent of BTU density. 
Perhaps you have a fireplace ?you need a fire that's quick and easy to build strong burns cheerily then goes up quickly and cleanly ,perhaps cottonwood would be the best choice for your firewood. 
Perhaps you enjoy the scent and sparks of Hickory and have a glass covered fireplace wouldn't that be a better choice?
Perhaps you have in mind smoking some meat or fish alder or sassafras might be the best firewood for you. 
It could be that you're going to do a little bit of a lot of things and I mixture would be the best choice. 
So do you see the seeds of confusion spread by the lies when they say that oak is the best choice ? it is merely a choice.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most dry wood has the same btu per pound.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Most dry wood has the same btu per pound.


That's a very important point and the reason i've always thought firewood should be sold by the weight and not the totally useless cord


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> That's a very important point and the reason i've always thought firewood should be sold by the weight and not the totally useless cord


Would also need a moisture test.
But since most places don't have a scale for between 1 and 3 tons, nor a moisture probe, I guess we'll have to keep on with selling by the cord, or in Michigan, the mythical face cord that most firewood is as.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Can we see a show of hands of those that have
> Never lied and would not lie to save their parents , children or spouses lives ?


That's got nothing to do with lying to sell firewood and violate laws.
Don't dig the hole any deeper. It makes you look desperate.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> haypoint said: ↑
> Most dry wood has the same btu per pound.


Evidently you didn't look at the chart:
https://chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm



> AmericanStand said: ↑
> That's a very important point and the reason i've always thought firewood should be sold by the weight and not the totally useless cord


That's ridiculous considering there's no way it could be sold by weight, whereas anyone anywhere can measure a cord.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Can we see a show of hands of those that have
> Never lied and would not lie to save their parents , children or spouses lives ?


Never been in that situation where a family members life is on the line. How is that breaking the law anyway? You lying about the actual type of wood so you can sell it is breaking the law, it's no different than me rolling back an odometer.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You are right text just like selling Mountain oysters is breaking laws on labeling.

But of course the question was really have you ever or would you ever tell a lie?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Evidently you didn't look at the chart:
> https://chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm
> 
> 
> That's ridiculous considering there's no way it could be sold by weight, whereas anyone anywhere can measure a cord.


 Lol really ? Thousands of products are sold by weight but suddenly it's ridiculous to sell firewood by weight ?
Instead you choose to use a meaningless thing like the cord. 
Perhaps you have some interest in perpetuating that myth ? Do you have a white oak plantation and the ability to air stack a cord?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Would also need a moisture test.
> But since most places don't have a scale for between 1 and 3 tons, nor a moisture probe, I guess we'll have to keep on with selling by the cord, or in Michigan, the mythical face cord that most firewood is as.


The moisture probe is convenient and inexpensive I carried one in my truck for many years. 
3 ton scales are pretty common. 
You can even set a truck up to be a scale.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You are right text just like selling Mountain oysters is breaking laws on labeling.
> 
> But of course *the question was really* have you ever or would you ever tell a lie?


If "mountain oysters" are sold in a store, they are labeled as to the actual ingredients.
The question you asked involved lying to save a life.
It doesn't help you when you start trying to reword what you said.



AmericanStand said:


> Lol really ? Thousands of products are sold by weight but suddenly it's ridiculous to sell firewood by weight ?


The products commonly sold by weight are easy to weigh.
Firewood isn't one of them.



AmericanStand said:


> Instead *you choose* to use a meaningless thing like the cord.


"Cord" isn't meaningless. It's a well defined term.
I didn't "choose" to use it. Others have used it for many years, because it makes sense.



AmericanStand said:


> The moisture probe is convenient and inexpensive I carried one in my truck for many years.
> 3 ton scales are pretty common.
> You can even set a truck up to be a scale.


They aren't "common" enough to make it practical to sell firewood by it's weight.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If "mountain oysters" are sold in a store, they are labeled as to the actual ingredients.
> The question you asked involved lying to save a life.
> It doesn't help you when you start trying to reword what you said.
> 
> ...


 I reworded what I said to help you understand. 
Ok I will bite why isn't firewood easy to weigh. ?
I've weighted many cords just out of curiosity so obviously it isn't something onerous. 
A cord while easy to define is meaningless since it isn't applied to a uniform product. 
In fact it would actually be more accurate if the word pile was substituted for the word stack. 
How would you define common when it comes to moisture probes ?
There isn't a shortage , if you want one you can have one overnight for a few bucks
That seems like a common practical instrument. 
Or do you just mean that they aren't common because you don't have one. ?


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## cpnkrunch (Dec 6, 2014)

Don't wish to get involved in some P***ing contest, but I disagree with your BTU chart.

http://worldforestindustries.com/forest-biofuel/firewood/firewood-btu-ratings/ 

This chart shows osage orange (hedge around here) hickory and black locust as being higher in BTUs than either red or white oak. This has been my experience. I also agree that Joe Cityslicker is better off with cottonwood or no-split elm. Lighter weight, fires off well and does not leave coals to worry about, just sweep out the ashes. I prefer yellowwood, osage orange/mullberry family well cured, but clear any standing dead trees for firewood. Can't transport more than locally here (federal law prohibits crossing state lines). Same goes for thousand cancer disease in black walnut, gypsy moths and pine shoot beetles in various woods. Best idea, cut it where you burn it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Don't worry about getting in the middle kaptin. We usually converse as a sorta sidebar to the main thread.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I haven't seen the chart you're referring to


I realize that, because if you had, you wouldn't keep insisting Ash is better.



cpnkrunch said:


> I also agree that Joe Cityslicker is better off with cottonwood or no-split elm. *Lighter weight*, fires off well and *does not leave coals* to worry about, just sweep out the ashes.


Lighter weight means less BTU's per cord.
If there are no coals, you end up loading more wood to get the same amount of heat, costing more in money and labor.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Might be a way to sell firewood by weight. After all, that's how you sell logs or pulpwood. Nobody I know drags out a Doyle anymore.

A rick, a face cord, whatever, would have to be a specific dry weight. Dryness would be determined by moisture meter and would have to fall within certain parameters. Length could be standardized or could be custom cut for an extra charge.

I could see where it easily could be done by a commercial operator, but might be more difficult for the small, part-time guy.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I've weighted many cords just out of curiosity so obviously it isn't something onerous.


You've made lots of claims about lots of things.
It doesn't change reality.



AmericanStand said:


> Or do you just mean that they aren't common because you don't have one. ?


They aren't common because no one uses them for selling firewood.
It's the same way with scales.
Firewood is sold by volume, not weight or moisture content.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

cpnkrunch said:


> Don't wish to get involved in some P***ing contest, but *I disagree with your BTU chart.*
> 
> http://worldforestindustries.com/forest-biofuel/firewood/firewood-btu-ratings/
> 
> *This chart shows osage orange (hedge around here) hickory and black locust as being higher in BTUs than either red or white oak.*


The chart you're "disagreeing" with does also.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've made lots of claims about lots of things.
> It doesn't change reality.
> 
> 
> ...


 Lol nope reality is what it is not what you or I say it is. 
To say a moisture meter isn't common because no one uses them to sell firewood is sorta like saying wheels arnt common cause buggys and space ships don't use them. 
They are used in many trades.... That's why they are common. 
Same thing with scales
I could scale a cord of fire wood at the town of 400 near me at the scrapyard. 
Other towns near me that have suitable scales are;
Town of 1000 , grain elevator and fertilizer place
Town if 200 fertilizer place 
Town of 500 elevater , fertilizer places
Town of 400 fertilizer place. 
Town of 800 elevater and popcorn plant
Town of 600 elevater and trucking place
Town of 300 elevater and junkyard
Within this same area but just out in the country are 3 junkyards ,3 factories, several trucking companies and a bunch of farms with scales that I know of. 
That's about a twenty mile radius from my home. 
AND it doesn't include the towns of 3000 + since each of those has multiple places you can scale a load.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> To say a moisture meter isn't common because no one uses them to sell firewood is sorta like saying wheels arnt common cause buggys and space ships don't use them.
> They are *used in many trades*.... That's why they are common.


We aren't talking about "many trades".
They aren't common in relation to selling *firewood*. But you know that already. It is, afterall, the title of the thread. Neither are scales.



AmericanStand said:


> I could scale a cord of fire wood at the town of 400 near me at the scrapyard......


And yet no one sells firewood by weight, so all your anecdotes about scales are pointless.
The most common measurement has always been volume.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> Nothing better than ash.
> But the ignorant state foresters wind up on TV every fall telling folks that white oak dried three years is the only thing acceptable.
> My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak. Most people that know wood well enough to know what it is will be glad to see it.


Wrong, in so many ways.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We aren't talking about "many trades".
> They aren't common in relation to selling *firewood*. But you know that already. It is, afterall, the title of the thread. Neither are scales.
> 
> 
> ...


 So once again you return to your fallback position of "we did stupid stuff in the past so we should continue with stupid"


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Skamp said:


> Wrong, in so many ways.


I believe the rules of the forum say your not supposed to say something like. "Wrong"
You are supposed to give the reasons why you disagree with the post. 
I'd. Be interested in them.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

What's the BTU content of this thread?

geo


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> I believe the rules of the forum say your not supposed to say something like. "Wrong"
> You are supposed to give the reasons why you disagree with the post.
> I'd. Be interested in them.


"Nothing better than ash." You yourself came to the conclusion that there isn't a one size fits all.

".......the ignorant state foresters......." It is juvenile to state that for any common occupation.

".............telling folks that white oak dried three years is the only thing acceptable." From the hyperbole, I interpret that as best bet.

"My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak." And, I bet, you have the latest greatest most accurate moisture meter to show me too. The first is a lie, the second I can safely assume is too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> So once again you return to your fallback position of "we did stupid stuff in the past so we should continue with stupid"


There's nothing "stupid" about using a measurement that doesn't require transporting the wood needlessly, adding to the cost. 



> AmericanStand said: ↑
> *I believe the rules of the forum say* your not supposed to say something like. "Wrong"
> You are supposed to give the reasons why you disagree with the post.
> I'd. Be interested in them.


Wrong again.
You've heard all the reasons at least once.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I believe the rules of the forum say your not supposed to say something like. "Wrong"
> You are supposed to give the reasons why you disagree with the post.
> I'd. Be interested in them.


Coming from someone who encourages breaking rules. That's why you are a hypocrite!


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> *Yes I often encourage breaking laws and deception.*
> How is that a contradiction ?
> Sometimes it's the only way to deal with a overreaching deceptive government.


I posted your statement in case you needed proof and evidence as to why I said what I did. Do you need a synopsis?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I posted your statement in case you needed proof and evidence as to why I said what I did. Do you need a synopsis?


 I can't see how that would apply here. Do you think the administration of this site is overreaching and government ?


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Geo in Michigan, the BTU's of this thread has gotten to the point a pile of cow manure will produce about the same heat.

Mostly due to the content being about the same as a pile of cow manure.

7 years dead.
https://pix.sfly.com/tYC0er


















 Al


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's nothing "stupid" about using a measurement that doesn't require transporting the wood needlessly, adding to the cost.


While a accurate statement , once again you have set up a straw man. 
Measuring by weight doesn't require more than infinitesimal additional transportation in most cases. 
While measurement by cord requires a lot of hand stacking labor. 
I bet most guys would choose the scale over the stack after experiance with both. 
Which do you think would really add more cost ?



Bearfootfarm said:


> Wrong again.
> You've heard all the reasons at least once.


 What I've heard before wasn't really relavant to the post. 
Each post is supposed to add something. 
So some thing like "I agree with the others wrong for so many reasons" " might have barely fell within the rules.
The example we were given was something like "no" so the line is a little vague.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Skamp said:


> "Nothing better than ash." You yourself came to the conclusion that there isn't a one size fits all.
> 
> ".......the ignorant state foresters......." It is juvenile to state that for any common occupation.
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT POST. 

I'll address these issues in order. 

Some times I pick particular words carefully, when I said there was nothing better than ash we were talking in the context of firewood. I didn't say that ash was the best simply that there wasn't anything better. In the general context of firewood Id rate several types at the top. 
Now when things get specific and I rate something as the best I speaking from my common Midwestern perspective. 

I choose the word ignorant in relation to the state foresters carefully and it was meant in the specific context of the ones on TV spewing the "white oak" nonsense. 
I suspect their education has not exposed them to enough producers, users and uses of firewood to understand that BTU density is not the only factor one should use in acquiring firewood. I believe a intelligent man would reason that out , but I didn't call them stupid just uninformed since that's all I have actual proof of. 

I'm not sure what you mean in the third statement. 

At this point I no longer have a wood moisture meter of any type. I gave my last to a young friend of a curious nature. 

Selling white oak as eastern white oak is Perhaps a bit deceptive
Here a statement from wood-database.com

"While there is one specific wood species (Quercus alba) that is commonly considered the “White Oak,” and there is one specific species (Quercus rubra) that is considered the “Red Oak;” the truth of the matter is, when you buy oak lumber, oftentimes you will not actually be buying these two exact species, but most likely instead you’ll be buying one of the oaks contained within the two broad red and white groupings"

So labeling something substantially similar with substantially the same benefits seems to fall with in the generally accepted practices of the timber industry. 
Until the EAB problem I don't think it was at all harmful to the customer and the benefits to the ecology outweighed the slightly deceptive nature of the name. 

Thank you Skamp for posting your specific concerns it reminded me how others were perceiving my words.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I can't see how that would apply here. Do you think the administration of this site is overreaching and government ?


That's why your a double standard living hypocrite. How are you going to encourage rule/law breaking and deception and then call someone on rules? Your deceiving someone by selling them something that isn't supposed to be transported, so because you aren't liable anymore it's ok if they get a fine? Your a class act hypocrite. You should be a politician.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> While a accurate statement , once again you have set up a straw man.
> *Measuring by weight doesn't require more than infinitesimal additional transportation* in most cases.
> While *measurement by cord requires a lot of hand stacking labor. *
> I bet most guys would choose the scale over the stack after experiance with both.
> ...


It requires more effort, more time and more fuel and more cost.
It's weight is meaningless since it's not packaged and labeled, so the customer still doesn't know how much they are getting. 

On the other hand, a stack of wood that fills a certain volume is pretty much the same no matter where it's done.
It takes the same amount of labor to load and haul it to a scale as it does to stack it, and stacking is often included in the price anyway.
You're still picking it up and moving it the same number of times. 



> *I bet most guys would choose the scale over the stack* after experiance with both.


And yet most still sell by volume, even though they have had forever to change.
Think about that for a while. There's a good reason for it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Now when things get specific and I rate something as the best I speaking from *my* *common Midwestern perspective*.


I hardly think your perspective is "common".



AmericanStand said:


> Some times I pick particular words carefully, when I said there was nothing better than ash we were talking *in the context of firewood*.


As was everyone that has pointed out you're incorrect.
Ash is not "better" in any way than Oak as firewood.



AmericanStand said:


> Selling white oak as eastern white oak is *Perhaps a bit deceptive*
> Here a statement from wood-database.com


Selling Ash as anything other than Ash is an outright lie, but that's what you advocated.
No database needed.



AmericanStand said:


> So labeling something substantially similar with substantially the same benefits seems to fall with in the generally accepted practices of the timber industry.


Do you really think anyone is falling for all that?
You sound like a Govt lawyer on some bad comedy show.
Calling Ash "eastern white oak" is an outright lie.
Red Oak and White Oak is still "Oak" and still factual.



AmericanStand said:


> Thank you Skamp for posting your specific concerns *it reminded me* how others were perceiving my words.


Why would you need "reminding" when so many keep telling you the same things?
For one who stated "Some times *I pick particular words carefully*", you sure do say some odd things.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> That's why your a double standard living hypocrite. How are you going to encourage rule/law breaking and deception and then call someone on rules? Your deceiving someone by selling them something that isn't supposed to be transported, so because you aren't liable anymore it's ok if they get a fine? Your a class act hypocrite. You should be a politician.


 Why yes imagine that I'm not perfect in your eyes. 
But I'm confused about what you mean when you say 
"Your deceiving someone by selling them something that isn't supposed to be transported, so because you aren't liable anymore it's ok if they get a fine? "

Why would I be liable for their crime ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It requires more effort, more time and more fuel and more cost.
> It's weight is meaningless since it's not packaged and labeled, so the customer still doesn't know how much they are getting.
> 
> On the other hand, a stack of wood that fills a certain volume is pretty much the same no matter where it's done.
> ...


 Are you that unfamiliar with the real world that you actually believe what you wrote ?

Selling by weight instead of volume is less work. Perhaps a tiny amount more fuel to drive a block or so out of the way but not enough to outweigh the labor of stacking firewood. 
A ton is a ton and a scale ticket is as trustworthy as any other label. 

No a stack of firewood isn't pretty much the same. I'd bet that weight would be a more consistent measure of BTUs even without a moisture meter than cords. 

You are plain wrong if you think dropping wood in the bed of a truck is the same amount of work as stacking it. 
Heck I've seen places were the cutter automatically dropped wood in the bed of a truck but I've never seen a automatic stacker. 
With the right truck and cutter a man could sell a lot of wood without ever havin to lift it. I'm sure that would be popular with wood cutters. 
Stacking at the customer while included in the price is often for the purpose of measuring it for sale that's the part most woodmen would love to eliminate. 

Yes most people do what's been done it's called inertia. And has a lot to do with people like you who will make any excuse for the status quo.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You know farmers used to sell their corn by a volume measurement called a bushel ?
Even though the grain of corn is a very uniform item the industry has moved to selling it by weight in a unit called by that same name but defining a bushel as 56 pounds at 14% moisture. 
Of course there is the loss of the cobs to the purchaser. 
But overall the industry seems to find sales by weight a better choice.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Who turns in their corn with the cob? You are clueless. It still goes by the bushel.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/am_gr110.txt


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> As was everyone that has pointed out you're incorrect.
> Ash is not "better" in any way than Oak as firewood.
> 
> 
> ...


 Really ash is never better in anyway than white oak ?
Oh come on!

So selling ash as hardwood , miscellaneous, blocking, white hardwood and all the other common trade names and descriptions is a lie ?

Ok fine mea culpa I've admitted it I've told a lie in my life. 
You ready to pick up that first stone ?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Why yes imagine that I'm not perfect in your eyes.
> But I'm confused about what you mean when you say
> "Your deceiving someone by selling them something that isn't supposed to be transported, so because you aren't liable anymore it's ok if they get a fine? "
> 
> Why would I be liable for their crime ?


Because you lied and said it was your "eastern" white oak, which according to you is ash. So if it can be transported and you sold it your good with someone else getting in trouble that may not know your BS terminology? 

I know your not perfect no one is, but I'm not a lying hypocrite. Do some research and use common sense.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ash is never better in anyway than white oak ?
> Oh come on!
> 
> So selling ash as hardwood , miscellaneous, blocking, white hardwood and all the other common trade names and descriptions is a lie ?
> ...


You didn't say hardwood, you said eastern white oak which it is not. So yeah that would be a lie.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> You didn't say hardwood, you said eastern white oak which it is not. So yeah that would be a lie.


 It's not ? Who are you to say it's not ? Any body can name something. 
You realize even the Name white oak is just something a lot of people commonly call it. 
To illustrate. Osage orange, hedge,ironwood ,bodark , hedge apple , cow berry, spider knocker are just a few of the names for the same plant. It's not a lie to use one of the names you don't like. 

Note I didn't say to call ash white oak.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Because you lied and said it was your "eastern" white oak, which according to you is ash. So if it can be transported and you sold it your good with someone else getting in trouble that may not know your BS terminology? .


 Are you getting at the idea someone would get in trouble for transporting ash but not eastern white oak. ?
All the laws I've seen prohibit transporting FIREWOOD. That would be firewood of any type not specifically ash.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I know your not perfect no one is, but I'm not a lying hypocrite. Do some research and use common sense.


 Have you EVER lied ? Just once ever ?
If you have isn't it just a bit hypocritical to call me one ?

I've stepped forward and owned it. 
Personally I suspect there are a lot of hypocrites here that have lied and won't admit it.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Have you EVER lied ? Just once ever ?
> If you have isn't it just a bit hypocritical to call me one ?
> 
> I've stepped forward and owned it.
> Personally I suspect there are a lot of hypocrites here that have lied and won't admit it.


Maybe when I was a kid but I like being honest, that's what's wrong with the world today, no one can handle the truth. The only thing you have owned up to is lying, not that your wrong throughout the whole thread.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

And you haven't lied since then ? What an exceptional person congratulations. 
What else would you like me to say I was wrong about?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> It's not ? Who are you to say it's not ? Any body can name something.
> You realize even the Name white oak is just something a lot of people commonly call it.
> To illustrate. Osage orange, hedge,ironwood ,bodark , hedge apple , cow berry, spider knocker are just a few of the names for the same plant. It's not a lie to use one of the names you don't like.
> 
> Note I didn't say to call ash white oak.





AmericanStand said:


> And you haven't lied since then ? What an exceptional person congratulations.
> What else would you like me to say I was wrong about?


Cow berry is a shrub and iron wood is not an Osage orange, you can start there.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Cow berry is a shrub and iron wood is not an Osage orange, you can start there.


 Lol see now we are back to the eastern white oak problem. 
Cow berry has at least three meanings here the shrub , a cow pie and of course Maclura pomifera. 
And iron wood is a very common name for it here. 
What does ironwood refer to where you at ?


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

Nunc Latine loquor nos?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Why would I be liable for their crime ?


Why would you pretend to not know?



AmericanStand said:


> Really ash is never better in anyway than white oak ?
> Oh come on!


Why do you keep asking questions already answered?



AmericanStand said:


> So selling ash as hardwood , miscellaneous, blocking, white hardwood and all the other common trade names and descriptions is a lie ?


You're now lying again by trying to imply that's what you originally stated.



AmericanStand said:


> Perhaps a tiny amount more fuel to drive *a block or so out of the way* but not enough to outweigh the labor of stacking firewood.


If I wanted to sell a cord to my next door neighbor, I'd have to drive 40-50 miles round trip to use a scale instead of less than 100 yards from my property to his woodshed. I'd have to disconnect the trailer from the ATV I can drive in the woods to the truck I'd need to drive on the highway.

A scale ticket only shows the weight of the load if you've made a previous trip with the truck or trailer unloaded to get a tare weight, and it doesn't tell you if anything was removed before it reached it's destination.

You're just making things up as you go along, but you're not using any real logic.



AmericanStand said:


> Note I didn't say to call ash white oak.


You're lying again. You have zero credibility.



AmericanStand said:


> My advice for ash is to sell it as eastern white oak.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol see now we are back to the eastern white oak problem.
> Cow berry has at least three meanings here the shrub , a cow pie and of course Maclura pomifera.
> And iron wood is a very common name for it here.
> What does ironwood refer to where you at ?


 Ironwood as a tree is also known as a American hornbeam, which is not the same as an Osage orange at all except they are both trees with leaves even.

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/trees/handbook/th-3-81.pdf

Cowberry or lingonberry isn't remotely related other than the fact they have leaves. It's a shrub not a tree. 

I don't really care what you call anything where your from that's your business and you must have some desperate friends or buy beer for everyone to keep them around listening to your crock of BS. 

Ash is ash, oak is oak, ash is not oak and oak is not ash. Osage orange is not ironwood, cowberry is not Osage orange therefore ironwood does not equal cowberry. 

Keep em coming.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

You:" Hey, buddy, I see you have a bunch of firewood stacked by your driveway. It looks like three stacks, four feet tall and eight feet long. Looks like a mix of Ash and Maple. How much do you want for it?'

Me:"Well, I figure there is 1,200,000 BTUs in that pile. I'll sell it for $10.00 per quarter million btu.
Go weigh your truck, come back, load the wood, take it back to the scales, come back and I'll moisture test it. But, if it is heavier than a ton or moisture tests less than 17%, I'll have to adjust the price."

You: "I just want to buy that wood you have stacked o by your driveway, with the for sale sign."

Me: Hey, you trying to cheat me? I want to sell you btu, not cords, everyone is doing it this way, it's the latest thing."

You:" Good bye......"


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Remember the OP ?
Lol I thought we were talking about a business situation. 
Between neighbors it's usually more like "hey bill I'm needn some wood" " take that pile if it will do ya"

Sure people can come up with some instances weighing is a problem in general commerce it will be easier.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Sure people can come up with some instances weighing is a problem *in general commerce it will be easier*.


If that were true, that's how it would be done.
You've lost all credibility. Anything more you say will just make it worse.



AmericanStand said:


> Lol I thought we were talking about a *business* situation.
> Between neighbors it's usually more like "hey bill I'm needn some wood" " take that pile if it will do ya"


One can do business with neighbors whether it's done in cash or trade.


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