# Student Loans - Shades of the Sub-Prime Home Loans?



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, the guy has some fairly good points regarding Student Loans, I'm on low bandwidth surfing while I wait for my service to be transferred so I feel for those without high speed connections and I am limited in my search capabilities but let me throw this out there, high paying careers used to cost a big chunk of dollars, wonder what those dollars were used for 20 years ago as opposed to today's use of the tuition fees?

Wonder how much is the truth?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bernie are you listening? Colleges and Universities pay zero tax...like I don't know, the evil corporations? Lol.

Patrick Bet-David is a great speaker but if I saw him at my front door I can't help but think that I'm 45 minutes from being duct taped in garbage bags and stuffed into a car trunk.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Government loans screwed up the whole thing, just like housing.

Now The People suffer for it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

501c3's allowed to invest money but in some cases they have to pay tax on it. If colleges are exempt from that they shouldn't be.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Online Universities are a disrupter but they have been kept in check by the large colleges and politicians. And we the people also have to shoulder a lot of the blame by how much most of us feel about how necessary a degree is. 

Is it really that necessary though?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> Online Universities are a disrupter but they have been kept in check by the large colleges and politicians. And we the people also have to shoulder a lot of the blame by how much most of us feel about how necessary a degree is.
> 
> Is it really that necessary though?


I wouldn't think a degree is necessary. Helpful perhaps for some folks but millions live out long, successful, happy lives without one. Me being one of them.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wouldn't think a degree is necessary. Helpful perhaps for some folks but millions live out long, successful, happy lives without one. Me being one of them.


I don't think so either. I know a high school drop out that was an addict by 22. Now at 40 something he is a multi millionaire living in New Orleans. He didn't win the lottery either it was all him. 

I think a degree is great. But from my generation on up we are told we HAVE to have one. Now I just don't believe it's true at all.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Especially with the advent of the internet, I can learn anything that used to only be available through a university education on my own, for free.

You're basically just paying for that piece of paper at the end now, not the actual access to information.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

and worth every penny.
I'll have to google the placement percentages.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> and worth every penny.
> I'll have to google the placement percentages.
> View attachment 79216


Well that guys an idiot. Everyone knows you drink whiskey or wine when watching YouTube. No one drinks beer. 

I just cant hire that guy because he got it wrong.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

They are both scams by lender/money managers to defraud the American people.

The difference is, the sub-prime mortgages were swindled directly from the American public,
While the US Government tax dollars will be swindled since student aid loans are government guaranteed.
Either way we get screwed.

Since the safeties put in place after the 1928 'Great Depression' were removed, and we had the big banking crash which screwed US citizens,
Congress made regulations to keep the 2008 meltdown from happening again,
BUT,
All those safeties have already been removed.
That pretty well tells me big banks intend to do it all over again.

Warren Buffett has at least $121 Billion dollars laid back, the most cash laid back since before 2008, he sees it coming again.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/08/03/business/berkshire-hathaway-q2-earnings/index.html
Keep in mind that Warren Buffett was the ONLY real estate manager that didn't participate in sub-prime loan market the first time... And he raised the red flags long before the crash trying to warn people.

The stock market is WAY over bought, everyone agrees.
Warren Buffett points out it's all paper, since transportation companies are in bad shape America isn't making/producing anything, it's all a paper tiger and someone will have to pay the bill real soon.
The idea of 1928 laws was NOT to have a bank "Too Big To Fail"...
(Rich people and the Congress members they bought paying off)

Since student loans were privatized, the interest rates have gone WAY above dividend interest rates... Basically loan sharking, and it's 100% safe in troubled times, the government guaranteed the loans when people fail.
It's loan sharking simply because you can't discharge a student debt, not even through bankruptcy, and there are co-signers involved the banks will go after in defaults.
Its predatory lending no matter how you look at it, and something WILL happen because of it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> It's loan sharking simply because you *can't discharge a student debt*


Sure you can.
It's called "paying you bills".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Sure you can.
> It's called "paying you bills".


It seems a bit harsh to insist that someone actually repay money they borrow though. That's right up there with expecting them to keep their word or (gasp) be responsible!


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

When one gets a degree, there are other things it says to an employer - one of them being the person has enough "stick-to-it" where-with-all to last 4 years. That translates to hopefully an employee staying with a job longer.
Some people with degrees have a broader outlook on life than one without. Also some of the things they learned that, on first blush may not look to be applicable to the job, but may be something that can be drawn on in the future.
Ya never know, but all things looking equal on paper, I'd take the one with a degree.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

If you aren't keeping up, student loans is the new credit card scam.
Fees, fines, interest rates jumping up totaling 24%-25%.
Students are getting smothered in fine print, thinking they are borrowing $10,000 and not knowing there is another $2,500 or more in fees, payments taking 3 weeks or a month to get processed so there are fines & interest rate hikes, etc.

I just went through this with my sister's kid, she got out of school, and wondered why her payments were triple what they should have been, so when the lenders were FINALLY contacted (took a lawyer to get answers) it was fees & fines, increased interest rates.
The payments weren't supposed to start until she graduated (or quit), but they find her, jacked her interest rate up, said she *Should* have been paying over summer breaks...

I got a lawyer, hammered out a settlement, and paid it off.
The lenders wouldn't initially let me just pay it off, I had to get a lawyer involved to be able to pay it off in a lump sum...
They got 100% of the loans, 100% of original interest rate from the time she graduated, 100% of the fees, but I flat refused the fines, increased interest rates.

It was a mess...
They wanted to keep her on the compound interest hook for the rest of her life (loan sharking).
If they had stuck to the original contract, it would have taken her 12 years to pay off the loans.
The way they did things she would have been paying 40+ years.

The lenders wouldn't even come to the table if the local news hadn't got ahold of it, and their 'Exclusive' deal with the collage hadn't been exposed and in question...
Don't kid yourselves, the collage was right in there with the lenders, the lenders being their primary source of income.
Since student loans went private, the laws were changed, and the lenders/collages don't have to let students know about, or offer, lower rate loans or school the students in interest rates, fees, rate increases, ect.

What the judge noted, exactly NO notification that her payback had activated and fees, fines & increased interest rates were happening, no communication what so ever, and the same lender continued to lend money year after year knowing they hadn't informed her she was 'Delinquent'... Again, loan sharking/predatory lending.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Wolf mom said:


> When one gets a degree, there are other things it says to an employer - one of them being the person has enough "stick-to-it" where-with-all to last 4 years. That translates to hopefully an employee staying with a job longer.
> Some people with degrees have a broader outlook on life than one without. Also some of the things they learned that, on first blush may not look to be applicable to the job, but may be something that can be drawn on in the future.
> Ya never know, but all things looking equal on paper, I'd take the one with a degree.


Back in the day sure, it was like that. Now from every article and graph I have seen degreed people hop around from job to job more than non degreed people. Maybe it's because they have more options.

IBM, Google and others are now offering jobs for people with no degree if they sign on for x amount of years. They will pay for the courses they feel are required for the job. If you want to advance you can take more free classes and do that too. Sounds like a recipe for success if more follow suit.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Back in the day sure, it was like that. Now from every article and graph I have seen degreed people hop around from job to job more than non degreed people. Maybe it's because they have more options.
> 
> IBM, Google and others are now offering jobs for people with no degree if they sign on for x amount of years. They will pay for the courses they feel are required for the job. If you want to advance you can take more free classes and do that too. Sounds like a recipe for success if more follow suit.


My son was just talking about this (software engineer in the Bay area). Sure, they still ask what degree you have and where you got it from, but if you can pass the practical application "exams" you get during the interview process, they really don't care whether you got a degree from MIT or never went to college. He didn't mention anything about signing on for years of service, I don't think the companies he deals with have education requirements as long as you show the ability to do the work, so that makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if colleges as they stand now are on the way out. More companies/fields start doing this and there's really no reason to keep them around.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

My perspective on this

Step1: Import immigrant labor you can use to bust up unions and treat as indentured servants -remember when blacks and rural whites used to make the equivalent of almost $50 /hr in poultry processing plants?
Step2: Outsource most of the manufacturing to third world economies
Step3: Tell young people their whole lives that earning a living and raising a family now requires a degree
Step4: Jack up the cost of degrees by protecting lenders from default 
Step5: Issue these loans in 10s to 100s of thousands of dollars to 18 year olds -you now have the citizens as indentured servants as well

Step6: Rely on:

Republicans calling young people lazy when in their 20s and 30s and working 2 service jobs they cannot pay off the loans
Democrats asking for more top-down control to continue the cycle


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> If you aren't keeping up, student loans is the new credit card scam.
> Fees, fines, interest rates jumping up totaling 24%-25%.
> Students are getting smothered in fine print, thinking they are borrowing $10,000 and not knowing there is another $2,500 or more in fees, payments taking 3 weeks or a month to get processed so there are fines & interest rate hikes, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm keeping up. My youngest isn't too far out of college.

The thing is, we understood and taught the kids that nothing is for free. Someone lends you money, they're not lending it to you for free or out of the goodness of their heart. Read the fine print. If you decide to take a loan after understanding the terms, it's your responsibility to pay it back. If you don't understand the terms, ask someone for help understanding them or don't take the loan.

I'm sorry that happened to your niece, but, really, it's part of becoming an adult to learn there is no such thing as a free lunch. In an ideal world she'd have learned that before she got the painful lesson, but sometimes you have to take your lumps. I know saying this is harsh, but life is harsh.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I am so proud of my kids


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

dyrne said:


> My perspective on this
> 
> Step1: Import immigrant labor you can use to bust up unions and treat as indentured servants -remember when blacks and rural whites used to make the equivalent of almost $50 /hr in poultry processing plants?
> Step2: Outsource most of the manufacturing to third world economies
> ...


I wouldn't call them lazy, just have to wonder why they can't pay their debts?


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wouldn't call them lazy, just have to wonder why they can't pay their debts?


These debts are not designed to be paid off at least, not while the person is of working age. The average student loan debt now for people in their 60s is now $23,000 dollars. You're talking about telling a kid they can either have no future or go to college. I think the term for a 60k amount of debt might be around 30 years but I'm not super familiar with it. I skipped college. 

Now, obviously they would be better off rooming with 4 people and working their tails of for 3-4 years saving every penny then going to college paying as they go but, these are kids. If you design a system that will work as long as you can rely on young people making good decisions... you've designed a bad system. It's like saying "I know! we'll use free prison labor to solve the problem of daycare for single parents!"  That's... a bad system. Now what happens when they do finally go through all that, are leaving their fertile years because the last 8 were working for college?:

Every bartender and waitress I know has a degree or is working toward a degree. The one's I knew 10 years ago, most of them are still bar tending or waitressing. They're grasping at straws because the real jobs just aren't there. We have 80-90 million working age adults that are not employed. You could triple electricians, plumbers etc and not dent that number and at the same time you'd drive down the pay for those professions. I don't know what the answer is... but the jobs just aren't there anymore.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

dyrne said:


> These debts are not designed to be paid off at least, not while the person is of working age. The average student loan debt now for people in their 60s is now $23,000 dollars. You're talking about telling a kid they can either have no future or go to college. I think the term for a 60k amount of debt might be around 30 years but I'm not super familiar with it. I skipped college.
> 
> Now, obviously they would be better off rooming with 4 people and working their tails of for 3-4 years saving every penny then going to college paying as they go but, these are kids. If you design a system that will work as long as you can rely on young people making good decisions... you've designed a bad system. It's like saying "I know! we'll use free prison labor to solve the problem of daycare for single parents!"  That's... a bad system. Now what happens when they do finally go through all that, are leaving their fertile years because the last 8 were working for college?:
> 
> Every bartender and waitress I know has a degree or is working toward a degree. The one's I knew 10 years ago, most of them are still bar tending or waitressing. They're grasping at straws because the real jobs just aren't there. We have 80-90 million working age adults that are not employed. You could triple electricians, plumbers etc and not dent that number and at the same time you'd drive down the pay for those professions. I don't know what the answer is... but the jobs just aren't there anymore.


Bring jobs back. To do that you have to treat business like its a good thing.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

dyrne said:


> Every bartender and waitress I know has a degree or is working toward a degree. The one's I knew 10 years ago, most of them are still bar tending or waitressing. They're grasping at straws because the real jobs just aren't there. We have 80-90 million working age adults that are not employed. You could triple electricians, plumbers etc and not dent that number and at the same time you'd drive down the pay for those professions. I don't know what the answer is... but the jobs just aren't there anymore.


Plenty of good paying jobs with benefits in my area of the midwest, but ...... you have to be reliable, somewhat presentable and drug free.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

dyrne said:


> My perspective on this
> 
> Step1: Import immigrant labor you can use to bust up unions and treat as indentured servants -remember when blacks and rural whites used to make the equivalent of almost $50 /hr in poultry processing plants?
> Step2: Outsource most of the manufacturing to third world economies
> ...


Democrats _*received*_ top down control in 2009 when they took over the student loan in it's entirety. Private banks are out of it now.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

All y'all ('bama Pixie again) should have a plumber (and their assistant) do your next colonoscopy. Let us know how it goes, ok?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> If you aren't keeping up, student loans is the new credit card scam.
> Fees, fines, interest rates jumping up totaling 24%-25%.
> Students are getting smothered in fine print, thinking they are borrowing $10,000 and not knowing there is another $2,500 or more in fees, payments taking 3 weeks or a month to get processed so there are fines & interest rate hikes, etc.
> 
> ...


If it's loan sharking then contact your congressman. They have the purse strings.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> Plenty of good paying jobs with benefits in my area of the midwest, but ...... you have to be reliable, somewhat presentable and drug free.


If you are going to get a college degree, get one that is marketable.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Democrats _*received*_ top down control in 2009 when they took over the student loan in it's entirety. Private banks are out of it now.


I'd sure like to see documentation on that.

I just went through this last year and that's not how things worked in my neece's case.
The statutes/laws presented by lawyers, in front of a judge, were changes by (republican) congress under Bill Clinton years.
That's when the application/qualification process came out of government hands for the government guarantee, and the qualification process went into private lender hands.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> I'd sure like to see documentation on that.
> 
> I just went through this last year and that's not how things worked in my neece's case.
> The statutes/laws presented by lawyers, in front of a judge, were changes by (republican) congress under Bill Clinton years.
> That's when the application/qualification process came out of government hands for the government guarantee, and the qualification process went into private lender hands.


Student loans are available from many sources. Most new student loans and parent loans come from the federal government through the U.S. Department of Education’s Federal Direct Loan program. Other student and parent loans come from private lenders, such as banks and other financial institutions, state governments and colleges.

Generally, students should always borrow federal first, because federal student loans are cheaper, more available and have better repayment terms.

https://www.edvisors.com/ask/faq/how-do-student-loans-work/

As of July 8, 2016, the federal government owned approximately $1 trillion in outstanding consumer debt, per data compiled by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. That figure was up from less than $150 billion in January 2009, representing a nearly 600% increase over that time span. The main culprit is student loans, which the federal government effectively monopolized in a little-known provision of the Affordable Care Act, signed into law in 2010.

https://www.investopedia.com/articl...81216/who-actually-owns-student-loan-debt.asp


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

dyrne said:


> My perspective on this
> 
> Step1: Import immigrant labor you can use to bust up unions and treat as indentured servants -remember when blacks and rural whites used to make the equivalent of almost $50 /hr in poultry processing plants?
> Step2: Outsource most of the manufacturing to third world economies
> ...


Absolutely correct.
Concerted effort by both sides to destroy the center. The backbone of the country.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> I'd sure like to see documentation on that.
> 
> I just went through this last year and that's not how things worked in my neece's case.
> The statutes/laws presented by lawyers, in front of a judge, were changes by (republican) congress under Bill Clinton years.
> That's when the application/qualification process came out of government hands for the government guarantee, and the qualification process went into private lender hands.


Sorry my friend, I was off by a year. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sf...r-student-loan-program-from-banks-3193888.php

_Instead, the U.S. Department of Education - which already makes roughly a third of these loans through its direct-lending program - will make 100 percent of them starting July 1._

That doesn't mean you can't get one from a bank but without the guarantee from Uncle Sam you have be pretty well off.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> Absolutely correct.
> Concerted effort by both sides to destroy the center. The backbone of the country.


I don't think they are trying to destroy it but they are sopping up all the gravy.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> All y'all ('bama Pixie again) should have a plumber (and their assistant) do your next colonoscopy. Let us know how it goes, ok?


Except most people with crazy student loan debts aren't doctors (meaning they don't go into fields which have a high likelihood of being able to pay those loans off).

I was a studio art major, which a lot of people make fun of (including me), but I was smart enough not to go into debt to be an art major. I knew my chances of making enough from my degree to pay back loans were very small, so I didn't take loans and worked my way through college. I also realized it didn't matter whether I attended a state school or a private school, so I went to the cheapest college with the best art program in my area. 

I'm not sure why I should have to pay for some other art major's lack of thinking things through, "needing" to go to the Rhode Island School of Design, and racking up student loan debts they'll probably never be able to pay off. If I could figure out how to do it without debt, I shouldn't be on the hook for theirs.

This public service announcement brought to you by the oft reviled idiot fine art major. Required "durp."


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

No problem, I'm trying to Wade through the first links...
I'm not much on 'Legal Speak', combined with government speak and you nearly have to look up every word for the 'Legal' definition.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> Except most people with crazy student loan debts aren't doctors (meaning they don't go into fields which have a high likelihood of being able to pay those loans off).
> 
> I was a studio art major, which a lot of people make fun of (including me), but I was smart enough not to go into debt to be an art major. I knew my chances of making enough from my degree to pay back loans were very small, so I didn't take loans and worked my way through college. I also realized it didn't matter whether I attended a state school or a private school, so I went to the cheapest college with the best art program in my area.
> 
> ...


I was going to respond to that but didn't. Most people understand we aren't talking about medical doctors and engineers.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> All y'all ('bama Pixie again) should have a plumber (and their assistant) do your next colonoscopy. Let us know how it goes, ok?


If I was in the market for one, I'd take that suggestion seriously and report back.
But that's not something in any future plans, lol.
If I ever DID though, a series of basic plumbing questions would definitely be on my list as I evaluated any physicians.
I haven't been impressed with the results I've seen so far from those that have had them. 
The last one my wife had and the the difficulty healing from the damage it caused has made her reluctant to have another one. 
Of course good plumbers are hard to find too,


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> I don't think they are trying to destroy it but they are sopping up all the gravy.


They sure are,with a side order of our biscuits.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Wolf mom said:


> When one gets a degree, there are other things it says to an employer - one of them being the person has enough "stick-to-it" where-with-all to last 4 years. That translates to hopefully an employee staying with a job longer.
> Some people with degrees have a broader outlook on life than one without. Also some of the things they learned that, on first blush may not look to be applicable to the job, but may be something that can be drawn on in the future.
> Ya never know, but all things looking equal on paper, I'd take the one with a degree.


After 4 years military i got my first degree. Paid by the U.S. government for servicing in the military. The oil company i worked for 30 years paid for my college in engineering for 8 years college for different engineering fields. Each degree i got meant a good raise. Worked full time nights and went to college in the day. 
I have 4 children that have college degrees in different fields and make well over 100k a year. All with loans form the government and all loans have been paid off. Millions of young folks have got good paying jobs because of help form the U.S. government loads. More education means better employees for the most part.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> Except most people with crazy student loan debts aren't doctors (meaning they don't go into fields which have a high likelihood of being able to pay those loans off).
> 
> I was a studio art major, which a lot of people make fun of (including me), but I was smart enough not to go into debt to be an art major. I knew my chances of making enough from my degree to pay back loans were very small, so I didn't take loans and worked my way through college. I also realized it didn't matter whether I attended a state school or a private school, so I went to the cheapest college with the best art program in my area.
> 
> ...


The generalizations on this thread are incredible. As usual. And a RN:BS in nursing will run around $25-35K and up. 

Just as I vote my concerns, you should as well. We'll both find out in November 2020.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

101pigs said:


> After 4 years military i got my first degree. Paid by the U.S. government for servicing in the military. The oil company i worked for 30 years paid for my college in engineering for 8 years college for different engineering fields. Each degree i got meant a good raise. Worked full time nights and went to college in the day.
> I have 4 children that have college degrees in different fields and make well over 100k a year. All with loans form the government and all loans have been paid off. Millions of young folks have got good paying jobs because of help form the U.S. government loads. More education means better employees for the most part.


I agree.

The Alabama Pixie's husband is currently working on his Master's degree courtesy of US Navy, he also attended the Naval Academy. The Alabama Pixie had to pay her room and board via government loan (and she's still paying it off) at VMI but her dual degrees were paid for by the US Air Force. 

Mr. Pixie has his RN:BS, the NY Pixie daughter has her RN and she's currently working on her BN online.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> The generalizations on this thread are incredible. As usual. And a RN:BS in nursing will run around $25-35K and up.
> 
> Just as I vote my concerns, you should as well. We'll both find out in November 2020.


I'm not sure what I'm generalizing about. I was pretty specific. 

I'm sure my BFA was in the range of your RN:BS numbers, for cost. Took me longer to get it because I was raising two kids and working, and I have much less paperwork than someone who took loans so I'm guessing at the cost, but it was at least somewhere around that number. Difference being you now have a marketable skill and will presumably be able to pay off any loans you may have taken. I have a piece of paper showing I can durp my way through college, some skills that no one really cares about. If I'd have taken loans to pay for my entire college experience I'd have been in a world of hurt. 

Specific point being, think ahead. It's probably smart to take some loans to get an RN:BS, you'll be highly employable and able to pay them back. It's probably really stupid to take loans to get a BFA, unless you like gambling with future debt. 

Specifically, I shouldn't be responsible for the stupidity and lack of foresight of others who were presumably smart enough to make it through college.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> Specifically, I shouldn't be responsible for the stupidity and lack of foresight of others who were presumably smart enough to make it through college.


Valid point, which is, after all that time and money, DID you (you is referring to college graduates in general) get a real "education" ?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> I'm not sure what I'm generalizing about. I was pretty specific.
> 
> I'm sure my BFA was in the range of your RN:BS numbers, for cost. Took me longer to get it because I was raising two kids and working, and I have much less paperwork than someone who took loans so I'm guessing at the cost, but it was at least somewhere around that number. Difference being you now have a marketable skill and will presumably be able to pay off any loans you may have taken. I have a piece of paper showing I can durp my way through college, some skills that no one really cares about. If I'd have taken loans to pay for my entire college experience I'd have been in a world of hurt.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I am in a miserable mood, and lumped everything together. You, specifically, didn't generalize. The forum does over education. It always has.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry. I am in a miserable mood, and lumped everything together. You, specifically, didn't generalize. The forum does over education. It always has.


Hope you get to feeling less miserable. Me too, it's been terribly hot here, got one who can't get out of bed because he threw his back out, one who just got pecked in the mouth by a broody chicken, I stepped in dog vomit about 5 minutes after waking up, and nobody EVER refills the ice trays.

I feel ya.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> Hope you get to feeling less miserable. Me too, it's been terribly hot here, got one who can't get out of bed because he threw his back out, one who just got pecked in the mouth by a broody chicken, I stepped in dog vomit about 5 minutes after waking up, and nobody EVER refills the ice trays.
> 
> I feel ya.


Thank you. I ate some bacon (thick sliced and delicious) and it did help.  

My day was not nearly as awful as yours, the dog vomit is the worst BTDT. The 5 lb guard dog that wears a sweater (actually we've moved to sweatshirts, but I digress) is not handling Molly's death well. I'm not either, but Penny is still terribly upset. It breaks my heart.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I ate some bacon (thick sliced and delicious) and it did help.
> 
> My day was not nearly as awful as yours, the dog vomit is the worst BTDT. The 5 lb guard dog that wears a sweater (actually we've moved to sweatshirts, but I digress) is not handling Molly's death well. I'm not either, but Penny is still terribly upset. It breaks my heart.


Mmmmm bacon, amazing how much comfort food does help sometimes.

Poor Penny (and you), it is such a tough thing to deal with, especially since you can't explain to her what's going on. That is heartbreaking. I hope it gets easier, I know it'll take awhile for both of you, my sympathies


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry. I am in a miserable mood, and lumped everything together. You, specifically, didn't generalize. The forum does over education. It always has.


I think you are misreading it. There is nothing wrong with an education. Everyone needs it. What's wrong is the hype surrounding them and having to pay 50 to 100k for one. It's driving the cost of them up every year. How is that fair to the next doctors, nurses and engineers?

On the other side, why so you absolutely need a degree in business? Colleges make you believe you do but do you really need it? Dave Thomas made a beautiful business selling hamburgers and was a high school drop out. Colleges want to brain wash you into thinking you will never be a CEO without one.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> I think you are misreading it. There is nothing wrong with an education. Everyone needs it. What's wrong is the hype surrounding them and having to pay 50 to 100k for one. It's driving the cost of them up every year. How is that fair to the next doctors, nurses and engineers?
> 
> On the other side, why so you absolutely need a degree in business? Colleges make you believe you do but do you really need it? Dave Thomas made a beautiful business selling hamburgers and was a high school drop out. Colleges want to brain wash you into thinking you will never be a CEO without one.


I don't think I'm misreading anything, but we can agree to disagree. And yes, there are "rags to riches" stories about people without a high school diploma going on to found multibillion dollar businesses.

Hopefully they'll be a lot less driving up of college costs in the future.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

There are billionaires that did just fine without degrees, like Mark Zuckerburg, Bill Gates and Richard Branson. There are others but they did what they did with determination and drive.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Hopefully they'll be a lot less driving up of college costs in the future.


I remember saying that thirty years ago. 

I work at colleges and see first hand how they play the system. It's not their fault because we the people are to blame for buying the garbage that comes out of that system. 

By the time your grandkids go they will probably pay about 200k.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> There are billionaires that did just fine without degrees, like Mark Zuckerburg, Bill Gates and Richard Branson. There are others but they did what they did with determination and drive.


Here's the thing (in my opinion), college teaches us how to do things the way they have always been done. Gates and Co. Did things different. They were laughed at and called all kinds of things. 

Now colleges are teaching us how to do things the way Gates and Co did it. But AI and new tech will be different still. There will be new Mavericks we will make fun of and then blame for all the bad stuff happening in twenty years or so.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Here's the thing (in my opinion), college teaches us how to do things the way they have always been done. Gates and Co. Did things different. They were laughed at and called all kinds of things.
> 
> Now colleges are teaching us how to do things the way Gates and Co did it. But AI and new tech will be different still. There will be new Mavericks we will make fun of and then blame for all the bad stuff happening in twenty years or so.


Yep, colleges don't innovate. And hopefully there will be those that don't follow the rules but their own ideas, IMHO that is the only way to grow.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I remember saying that thirty years ago.
> 
> I work at colleges and see first hand how they play the system. It's not their fault because we the people are to blame for buying the garbage that comes out of that system.
> 
> *By the time your grandkids go they will probably pay about 200k*.


Or free, and worth every penny


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> *I'd sure like to see documentation* on that.


It took less than 3 minutes to find.
https://www.redstate.com/diary/scip...ailure-of-student-loan-takeover-in-obamacare/

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...-debt-owed-federal-government-463-under-obama
"(CNSNews.com) -- Since President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the amount of outstanding federal student loan debt owed to the government has skyrocketed, increasing by 463 percent. The balance owed currently stands at $674,580,000,000.00 compared to $119,803,000,000.00, where it stood in January 2009, according to the Financial Management Service’s latest monthly treasury statement.

*Direct federal student loan spending began to rise rapidly in fiscal year 2010, when the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act – one of the two laws that make up Obamacare -- gave the federal government complete control over federal loans for education, the Direct Student Loan (DL) program. * 

This aspect of HCERA became effective July 1, 2010, when the amount of outstanding loans stood at $178,806,000,000. Since then, the balance has increased by 277 percent"

I'd like to see documentation of your claims, but I'm betting you'll show nothing at all, and you'll continue on as if you didn't see this proof either.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Irish Pixie said: ↑
> The generalizations on this thread are incredible. As usual. And a RN:BS in nursing will run around $25-35K and up.


So will a nice vehicle.
People pay those off easily.
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

The worst part is that they wanted to take that money and go to Trump University.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It took less than 3 minutes to find.
> https://www.redstate.com/diary/scip...ailure-of-student-loan-takeover-in-obamacare/
> 
> https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...-debt-owed-federal-government-463-under-obama
> ...


I showed him a link too but he had been silent since then.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry. I am in a miserable mood, and lumped everything together. You, specifically, didn't generalize. The forum does over education. It always has.


Generalizing education happens. In general, education is a good thing. Sadly and all too often degrees are handed out to people whose only real ability is to sit and listen to X number of hours of information being presented. Often even those who actually learn said information have no clue as to how to apply it in the real world around them. Universities do those good folks a disservice by allowing them to waste their time and taking their money. Those folks would be far better served by teaching them how to push buttons, and having their bosses train them which button to push.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't think I'm misreading anything, but we can agree to disagree. And yes, there are "rags to riches" stories about people without a high school diploma going on to found multibillion dollar businesses.
> 
> Hopefully they'll be a lot less driving up of college costs in the future.


Disagree. But truth is vast majority of folks will never do so with one.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

siberian said:


> Disagree. But truth is vast majority of folks will never do so with one.


Nope, most folks lack the ambition required to be truly wealthy, most are content with buying a few toys and sliding along comfortably. Nearly as many seem content to let the gov provide them with the basic needs as long as they have some beer money and a tv to watch.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

OK, you guys probably hate personal stories but here goes anyway. I came from a poor family of 8 kids. Dad could not read (but was extremely intelligent) and mom finished third grade. I married at 16 but did finish high school in a rural farming town and went to work at the factory. We lived in an old trailer, could not afford air conditioning in the south and I often wrote hot checks at the local grocery store. I came home one night after working long hours to find the lights had been turned off (I was going to pay them when I got paid). I said to myself - no more. No one was going to get me out of this mess but me so I went to the local state college and took the entrance exam. A few weeks later I got a letter that said I did so well I was given a full ride scholarship! But, I still had to find a way to pay the bills while I went to college so I took out student loans to live on as well as worked as a tutor. I went full time, even in the summer and got a four year bachelor degree in accounting in just over 3 years. Because of my GPA I had an excellent job waiting on me when I graduated. I started out pretty good, I worked hard and took chances and I climbed the ladder to a level I could have never imagined. I retired at 57 to the good life and had a fascinating career that I enjoyed. I am still the only sibling in my family to graduate from college and my son is my parents only grandchild to graduate with a 4 year degree (he did it without student loans). I made my monthly payments and had it paid off in 10 years. Now why did I do all that? I'm not any brighter than the rest of my high school class, I was hungry and had no intention of spending my life in poverty so I did the one thing that could get me out of poverty and boy am I glad I did. College may not be for everyone but there are countless people who have used it to pull themselves out of poverty. In my case, student loans made all the difference in the world. Poverty is so much more than just lack of money, it eats at your soul and the worry and stress simply wears you down until it becomes too much. Money can't buy happiness but it and good choices sure can come close!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Miss Kay said:


> OK, you guys probably hate personal stories but here goes anyway. I came from a poor family of 8 kids. Dad could not read (but was extremely intelligent) and mom finished third grade. I married at 16 but did finish high school in a rural farming town and went to work at the factory. We lived in an old trailer, could not afford air conditioning in the south and I often wrote hot checks at the local grocery store. I came home one night after working long hours to find the lights had been turned off (I was going to pay them when I got paid). I said to myself - no more. No one was going to get me out of this mess but me so I went to the local state college and took the entrance exam. A few weeks later I got a letter that said I did so well I was given a full ride scholarship! But, I still had to find a way to pay the bills while I went to college so I took out student loans to live on as well as worked as a tutor. I went full time, even in the summer and got a four year bachelor degree in accounting in just over 3 years. Because of my GPA I had an excellent job waiting on me when I graduated. I started out pretty good, I worked hard and took chances and I climbed the ladder to a level I could have never imagined. I retired at 57 to the good life and had a fascinating career that I enjoyed. I am still the only sibling in my family to graduate from college and my son is my parents only grandchild to graduate with a 4 year degree (he did it without student loans). I made my monthly payments and had it paid off in 10 years. Now why did I do all that? I'm not any brighter than the rest of my high school class, I was hungry and had no intention of spending my life in poverty so I did the one thing that could get me out of poverty and boy am I glad I did. College may not be for everyone but there are countless people who have used it to pull themselves out of poverty. In my case, student loans made all the difference in the world. Poverty is so much more than just lack of money, it eats at your soul and the worry and stress simply wears you down until it becomes too much. Money can't buy happiness but it and good choices sure can come close!


I love personal stories myself. It's a requirement here in Texas.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Woo-hoo @Miss Kay Great story. I love stories like that


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I think college is great but don't expect others to pay your way. I get tired of hearing all of the "my life is so hard because I have student debt" stories. You took out the loans, not me. I have a Bachelors and a Master and zero student debt. It took me almost 10 years to get my Bachelors because I paid as I went (and we move quite a bit); Got my Master's in two years because my company paid for it. Personally, I think parents and kids should have to go through a class in High School that talks about other ways to fund college, that college isn't necessary to be successful, and personal responsibility (i.e. don't expect others to pay your debt).


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

hiddensprings said:


> I think college is great but don't expect others to pay your way. I get tired of hearing all of the "my life is so hard because I have student debt" stories. You took out the loans, not me. I have a Bachelors and a Master and zero student debt. It took me almost 10 years to get my Bachelors because I paid as I went (and we move quite a bit); Got my Master's in two years because my company paid for it. Personally, I think parents and kids should have to go through a class in High School that talks about other ways to fund college, that college isn't necessary to be successful, and personal responsibility (i.e. don't expect others to pay your debt).


Let me make sure I understand you.

You want schools, government schools, to teach personal responsibility, and basic awareness?

And this is from the same government that tells us every day, how we need government, in every way, to take care of us?

Am I understanding you correctly?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I would RATHER that parents do that, but how is that working out in the US just now? 

Yes, probably half the parents teach responsibility, but the half that don’t are ruining their children, and that does effect 
the rest of us. 

There is no solution.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I would RATHER that parents do that, but how is that working out in the US just now?
> 
> Yes, probably half the parents teach responsibility, but the half that don’t are ruining their children, and that does effect
> the rest of us.
> ...


Do you find that hard to say?

I do. But, I fear you are correct.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It took less than 3 minutes to find.
> https://www.redstate.com/diary/scip...ailure-of-student-loan-takeover-in-obamacare/
> 
> https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...-debt-owed-federal-government-463-under-obama
> ...


Well, as the Good Book says, "a debtor is slave to the lender" and we all know, from history, how good a certain political party is at buying slaves.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

HD Rider, it's becoming easier every day to say, "There is no solution."

There have always been social problems. There will always be social problems. 

Anyone who thinks there is a solution to ANY social problem is naive.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> HD Rider, it's becoming easier every day to say, "There is no solution."
> 
> There have always been social problems. There will always be social problems.
> 
> Anyone who thinks there is a solution to ANY social problem is naive.


Don't miss the nativity scene tonight, ironically enough, from your state.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> HD Rider, it's becoming easier every day to say, "There is no solution."
> 
> There have always been social problems. There will always be social problems.
> 
> Anyone who thinks there is a solution to ANY social problem is naive.


The worst part is the people that keep shouting, "But we have to do SOMETHING." 

I take that back, the worst part is people who listen to those people and then do "SOMETHING" that makes everything worse for most everybody.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Let me make sure I understand you.
> 
> You want schools, government schools, to teach personal responsibility, and basic awareness?
> 
> ...


. You got me there....that would be an impossible task.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

hiddensprings said:


> . You got me there....that would be an impossible task.


It wasn't. When I went to school in the dark ages we were taught to fight our own dragons.


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