# LGDs used to maintain a balance



## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

This post is being started from a post on the LGD Links thread from Lockhart76.

"Statements like "you might as well go out their with AK-47s and kill all the wolves."

This is ridiculous. Poison, hunters/trappers, and guns will indiscriminately kill wolves, coyotes, etc. More is better. Our goal on our ranch is to increase biodiversity, all of it, even predators such as the much maligned coyote. Having dogs allows us to run our sheep w/o having to employ a "scorched earth policy". There are coyotes that learn/know not to eat sheep or come within "X" distance of them. They get to stay in the area and coexist quite well. Any other method is simply unsustainable b/c you will never get rid of all the predators. Kill all the coyotes within a 100mile radius and within a matter of time just as many will move into the now unoccupied area. We must learn to live with them as part of our operations and dogs is one of the best ways (actually, THE best =) this coexistence can take place.

also, I too have grown to appreciate this forum. sorry to hijack this thread. "

Lockhart76

You have touched on a subject that I feel has been far to under explored or discussed.
I am going to start a new thread on this subject, as I feel sharing these thoughts, experience and views could help us all. There is a strong push by the Animal Rights Groups to outlaw LGD,s. Sadly some of the wildlife groups have jumped on board.

With myself, I have a strong view that humans have taken far to big of a share of the Earth. I am a conservationist of sorts. I raise some Endangered fowl just for the thought of helping preserve them. I get happy when a cougar is spotted in our area. I would gladly vote to re-release the Red Wolf into East Texas.
Working with LGDs is a way to coexist in nature with the predators. Extermination is not only immoral, but (for the people only concerned about humans) offsets the balance formed over eons. Predators keep a balance that has evolved for each specific area. Upset that, and other things suffer, things we seldom realize untill to late. We need to educate the public, wildlife people, gov agencies, and ranchers that continue to kill the predators. The Cheetah Foundation has embraced the Anatolian and Kangal to give the African herders an alternative to killing the Cheetah. An effort to do the same would do wonders here.
Waterfowl have suffered from the poliferation of the coyote, raccoon and every other small predators. This is caused by the removal of the Wolf, that kept all the smaller predators populations down, but itself mostly preyed on larger game. Upset the balance! Deer overpopulations that crash on drought years causing mass dieoffs, because their populations were not kept in balance. 
For the ranchers that are loosing their LGDs to Wolves and Mt Lion, show them there are alternatives. Protection collars, more capable dogs, dogs with different work styles, running more than 1-2 dogs,,,,,,,etc. In Europe, the studies show that areas with strong historical cultures of working with LGDs still have intact predator populations. The people have figured out a way to coexist, and the predators figure out that easyier meals exist. That the predators that are only chased away 1-300 yards will return frequently to probe the opportunities and weaknesses. That when chased away 1-2 miles, will seldom attempt to try again. Many ranchers are hessitant to use a dog that LEAVES the flock to chase predators. Option would be to run both types. Turkish LGDs for chase away, and Pyrenees for base protection. 
After being slammed on other LESS MODERATED forums for introducing a dog that COULD kill a Wolf or Mt Lion, let me say that tat would not be the result. Saying the Boz "COULD" fight and survive the average encounter dosn't mean that it would happen often. Predators have an instinct to survive also. Risk analysis would teach them that less risky meals exist. The Boz would fill a void where the Grey Wolves are killing and eating Great Pyrenees type LGDs. They are far more canine aggressive, physically able, fast, and work on perimeter removal or CHASE OFF method. My observations are that with Fighting capability, the Kangal is 2x more able than the Pyrenees Types, the Boz are 2x the Kangals. Not to say the Pyrenees types do not have a need or place. Probable 80% of the farms or opperations work fine with them. I ran them for 16+ years. They would work good untill the Coyote pact build up enough strength to overpower my 2-3 dogs. Could have been prevented with a few more dogs. But I chose a new breed, and havn't heard them howl in years.
There is a place or job for every type of LGD and their different work styles, temperments, environmental tollerances, etc... Thats why I do not understand the RESISTANCE by some to newly introduced breeds. Competition, pride or just skeptacism, I do not understand it. 
Divided we will fall,,, Or at least together we can learn! Lets all embrace others viewpoints, knowledge, experience. And if they are incapable,,, let the moderators slap them down.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I agree, somewhere between 'save all the wolves' and 'shoot all the wolves' there has to be a happy medium. _*In Europe, the studies show that areas with strong historical cultures of working with LGDs still have intact predator populations. The people have figured out a way to coexist, and the predators figure out that easyier meals exist.*_ Amen....we could accomplish it here too if people would look to the Old World for examples and advice. Not running enough dogs seems to be the biggest setback to successful operations here. People complain, say they can't afford to feed x number of dogs then they complain when they lose x number of sheep/goats because they are not running enough dogs.....grin.... Balance is key.... Good points MM.


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## lockhart76 (Jul 31, 2011)

Hey this is a great thread....=)jk.

Seriously, my wife and I have made a decision to strive for balance and biodiversity on our ranch. As MM alluded to, if we simply remove a species that poses a problem for us, we are causing ripple effects throughout the ecological food web. This only leads to myriad other problems. The key is balance. Coyotes in and of themselves play a beneficial role: kill mice/rodents/gophers and serve as part of nature's clean up crew (scavengers). All we have to do is convince them that sheep are a meal that simply isn't worth the risk. Predators want to survive. They will not risk life or limb just for a lamb, although they probably do think my Dorpers look pretty tasty! 

Additionally, MM is also correct in his assertion that just b/c LGD's such as the Boz CAN kill wolves doesn't mean they will. Having such a formidable dog simply makes the prospect of a confrontation that much more unpleasant to a wolf.

Furthermore, there is a place for an array of dogs with a flock. We run seven dogs of no less than four or five breeds/mixes. Each has a skill set/presence/temperment/physical attributes that serve to aid the whole group in their mission to protect my flock. Drive out to the flock at dusk in a strange vehicle and the maremma barks her head off. They pyrenees circle up the sheep and move them to an area they feel 'safer' in. The anatolians come trotting out to investigate. Our mixed anatolians/pyrs will simply sit halfway between the perceived threat and the flock. This is very impressive to me and my heart simply swells to see what a beautiful mechansim we have in place to protect our flock. Any dog of any size/shape or breed has a place guarding a flock as long as it has the instinct and drive to protect your sheep and not cause them harm. 
I am sad that some lunatics down south want to outlaw LGD's. They are misinformed fear mongers. I do not know of a movement here in Saskatchewan like that and would hope that this never becomes the case. Currently the provincial government even offers livestock producers up to 200$ towards the cost of a LGD. Not a great deal but it helps. LGD's can play a vital role in allowing ranchers to coexist with wildlife AND make a profit. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not taken the time to understand these incredible creatures and the job they do.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

lockhart76 on the note about outlawing LGD's, I"m going to post a paper up for everyone to read that is basically advocating Big Brothering LGD's....it is a trip....

I believe in trying to meet in the middle too....why I am working with some conservation groups trying to help them help ranchers implement plans with LGD's to guard against wolves, plus use fladry, range riders, etc etc....

It can be done but takes work. And change...on people's parts, that is the most difficult part IMO...


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Goatress, I am thinking your link did not come through? 
Also, Just wanted to say thanks for all your efforts in trying to communicate with the Ranching and Wildlife people, as this takes you away from your chores. But the importance is something that is broad, and affects many things.

Lockhart76, I would be interested in placing a Boz with you in the future. Testing under those conditions would be a good way to introduce them to he Ranching world. Although they do this work all over Turkey (Free range flock protection), the ranchers here are hesitant to try something new. I have placed pictures on my website of them working in this capacity in Turkey. But pictures are few due to the remoteness of the flocks when out on the range.

I have also run into some very stiff bashing on the ranching forums. Most from people that raise LGDs. Some bashing me for the HUGE AGGRESSIVE LGD, when their 80# LGD do just fine. Only to find out they run their sheep behind ELECTRIC NET pastures of 1-2 acres. Hate to tell them, but my mother had a Poodle that would bark like a Pitbull at a neighborhood Chow that would come over,,,, through the glass door. Open the door, and she would run upstairs. The poodle knew of the saftey the glass door. Could or would her LGDs have been effective against the coyotes or wolves,,, who knows. But to bash someone else for trying to bring in a more ABLE dog seems of self interest. 
Back to the fact that we need to have open minds, investigate other cultures, their effective methods and try them ourselves. Seperated people and their interest, each on a path of their own, evolve very little. Look at all segments of society.

I do like to hear that Lockhart is utilizing the multiple breed THEORY of LGD protection. To many times in our efforts, people try to breed the ONE inclusive animal, that has all the desired traits one needs. But in many cases, the traits are opposing. 
To have a dog stay with the flock when the others are out chasing off the wolves might be of great importance. Just as having the dogs that could fight or chase them off far enough to limit their constant attempts.

One segment of ranching that may need to utilize LGDs are the cattle and horse ranchers. As with the return of the wolf, many losses are starting. Starting this culture will be difficult. Will probably have to start with small ranchers, to introduce the effectivness to the larger ones. Any Homesteading Today people interested. I would be willing to provide pups at a discount for people that would vest the time and efforts to show the others it can work.

Good luck everyone!!!


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

> I have also run into some very stiff bashing on the ranching forums. Most from people that raise LGDs.


MM: One of the reasons I take a lot of what is on www.lgd.org with a grain of salt, because many of the authors and 'experts' quoted on that site, were some of the same people thumbing their noses at anything new. Also, so much is out of date on that webpage, 15 years and older some of it. And, there is no "LGD Association" per se, it is just a group of people who got together and posted articles up; the main guy is a farmer back East with no more expertise than I or many others here have..... Likewise, the much touted Dan Lane, was mostly combative, arrogant, and very prickly over on another group, and I wasn't the only one noticing it...someone else told him at one point to "chill out". Much of what is out there is so dated and rehash of same thing on another website. And you are right, people come along with different LGD breeds and are instantly attacked by the status quo. I think the LGD world is in for a lot of change over the next several years whether people like it or not.


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