# Profit or breaking even on milk soap



## harmon

I have lamancha dairy goats and my wife's been wanting to make milk soap. She recently made a list of ingredients and when we priced everything she figured it would cost about a hundred dollars per batch if she bought the ingredients in bulk. 

Can we break even? She's substituting oil for lard.

Has anyone done a Web page or report on the economics of soapmaking?

Will anyone here please estimate your profit margin


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## MamaTiger

What size batch is that?

I have estimated my costs at around $1.81 per bar and even though I buy in large quantities, I am not buying in huge bulk amounts. I have a friend who makes/sells in very large quantities and her costs are less than $1 per bar.

I use lard...and it's a fairly cheap fat to use. Why would she chose to not use it? 

Also, I use milk in my soaps and it doesn't cost me near that much...are you counting the cost of the goats' upkeep or what?


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## Mistyf

$100 a batch seems really high, unless it makes quite a few bars. How many bars, at what weight does that make? My bars range in cost from .64 to about .94 per bar. They weigh 4.4 oz per bar.There are a lot of different factors for each batch. Some fragrance and essential oils are more costly than others, and some additives like clays and botanicals add to the cost of the batch.

I wonder if she has miscalculated in her portions or costs. Or maybe, this batch makes 100 or more bars.


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## harmon

MamaTiger said:


> What size batch is that?
> 
> I have estimated my costs at around $1.81 per bar and even though I buy in large quantities, I am not buying in huge bulk amounts. I have a friend who makes/sells in very large quantities and her costs are less than $1 per bar.
> 
> I use lard...and it's a fairly cheap fat to use. Why would she chose to not use it?
> 
> Also, I use milk in my soaps and it doesn't cost me near that much...are you counting the cost of the goats' upkeep or what?


She's allergic to lard. She just took into account the ingredients when figuring cost. She's going to send me a link to the recipes she found. I will repost it here

I just now saw the link to millers soap and will see if that has a lard free recipe.


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## harmon

Mistyf said:


> $100 a batch seems really high, unless it makes quite a few bars. How many bars, at what weight does that make? My bars range in cost from .64 to about .94 per bar. They weigh 4.4 oz per bar.There are a lot of different factors for each batch. Some fragrance and essential oils are more costly than others, and some additives like clays and botanicals add to the cost of the batch.
> 
> I wonder if she has miscalculated in her portions or costs. Or maybe, this batch makes 100 or more bars.


I asked her how many bars her recipe made and she didn't know. She will look it up. 

She isn't stupid in case it's starting to sound like it. She's a biology teacher and graduated from Baylor. 

Anyway I'm glad to read it isn't cost prohibitive. Maybe it's the lard substitutes that cost so much


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## MDKatie

Holy cow, either that's a HUGE batch or she's using some pretty pricey ingredients!


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## Lilith

I found that my local costco carries really good coconut oil. I get 4.8 lbs for just under $20 - $4.16 a lb. 

bulkapothecary on the other hand has coconut oil for as low as $1.15 a lb. to buy 8 lbs and be manageable size- it is $1.98lb

You might just need to look at different suppliers.


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## Mistyf

Harmon

I'm sorry if I sounded like I thought she was stupid. I don't mean that at all. I was just wondering what was driving her costs so high. I don't use lard either. I use coconut, olive, palm kernel, and aloe and shea butters.

If she can figure out her cost per bar, she will get a better idea of what she should charge. Packaging is also a consideration when figuring your final price.


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## harmon

It was me not you. Trying to communicate with her about the costs and understand the process.


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## fffarmergirl

I do a terrible job on marketing but sell quite a bit of mine. I would definitely be making a profit if I took the time to market it.


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## SeaGoat

Is she buying a mold and cutter and all the other supplies that's added into that $100?

When I place an order with wholesale supplies plus it's usually between $40-$80 and makes me several batches


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## exegeses

1- You still haven't mentioned the size of her 'batch', and we can't tell you much without knowing that. 

2- Your title "Profit or breaking even on milk soap" seems to imply that she plans on selling the soap, correct? Or is this 'profit/breaking even' refer to money saved by making and using your own soap vs. purchasing soap? 

3- Making soap to sell is quite a commitment. You don't just make your first batch of soap and go sell it! There's the whole learning process which includes test batches which usually aren't sellable. Once proper supplies are purchased (oils, lye, molds, and lots more), it's quite possible that her first marketable 4 lb. batch would cost in excess of $100! Again - we can't help until we know specifics. 

4- "... she's substituting oil for lard." How, exactly? Does she have a recipe of some kind that calls for lard and she plans on just substituting X oil for the lard? If so, that's a disaster waiting to happen. (That's not how soaping works.) If you (or she) doesn't know why, then some research needs done pronto. 

As for the teacher & college statement - it really doesn't mean anything. Just because someone graduated from a fancy college (I'm assuming it's fancy considering you named it) does not make them more or less stupid. Lot's of college grads are stupid, and many people w/o any college education whatsoever are extremely smart.


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## harmon

exegeses said:


> 1- You still haven't mentioned the size of her 'batch', and we can't tell you much without knowing that.
> 
> 2- Your title "Profit or breaking even on milk soap" seems to imply that she plans on selling the soap, correct? Or is this 'profit/breaking even' refer to money saved by making and using your own soap vs. purchasing soap?
> 
> 3- Making soap to sell is quite a commitment. You don't just make your first batch of soap and go sell it! There's the whole learning process which includes test batches which usually aren't sellable. Once proper supplies are purchased (oils, lye, molds, and lots more), it's quite possible that her first marketable 4 lb. batch would cost in excess of $100! Again - we can't help until we know specifics.
> 
> 4- "... she's substituting oil for lard." How, exactly? Does she have a recipe of some kind that calls for lard and she plans on just substituting X oil for the lard? If so, that's a disaster waiting to happen. (That's not how soaping works.) If you (or she) doesn't know why, then some research needs done pronto.
> 
> As for the teacher & college statement - it really doesn't mean anything. Just because someone graduated from a fancy college (I'm assuming it's fancy considering you named it) does not make them more or less stupid. Lot's of college grads are stupid, and many people w/o any college education whatsoever are extremely smart.


Please don't respond to my posts again. It was uncomfortable enough coming on to a subforum (soapmaking) where I'm probably the only male. I dont care to educate you nor debate you on things like whether or not college matters. If it didnt, there wouldnt be hundreds of thousands of people in the country tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Lots of college grads are not stupid. They may do stupid things, but an IQ low enough to qualify a student as "stupid" will preclude him or her from passing grades. People being smart that dont have degrees is off point and out of context. Irrelevant to anything I posted. Wife has a degree and has one from a very difficult and respected school. I didnt want people to think she wasnt smart enough to research soapmaking and figure out what exactly she needed. If you dont or cant understand that, I am sorry. 

It was embarrassing asking questions in the first place, and more embarrassing to learn my wife apparently didnt know what she was talking about or had done no research at all. Again, if you think a being a science teacher, having graduated from Baylor no less, doesn't prove that she understands how to research, reason, work through the scientific method, etc. all I can say is its probably a good thing you didnt go to college. 

As for me, I was a high school dropout. I enlisted in the military earned my GED and spent 13 years going to a dozen colleges in different states and overseas to gete my *undergraduate* degree. Don't tell me college degrees don't matter. The employment opportunities that opened up to me after getting my degree were a world apart from the choices I had prior.

Breaking even referred to selling it but as I wouldnt mind going into the red a little to make my own. But i was referring to selling it. 

I understand about commitment- see above. and thanks for the first helpful advice that it may cost upwards of a hundred due to trial and error. 

Acutally I'm the one that found recipes that didnt use lard. 

This next set of soap making oils is used to lend further strength to the soap bar, increase the conditioning ability and stabilize the lather. the following table is from

http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/soap-making-oils.html#.VE79IvnF98E

Oil, Fat or Butter	Hardness	Cleanse	Full Lather	Stable Lather	Condition
Palm	X X	X
Lard	X X	X
Cocoa Butter	X X	X
Shea Butter	X X	X
Mango Butter	X X	X
Kokum Butter	X X	X
Beef Tallow	X X	X
Sheep Tallow	X X	X
Coffee Bean	X X	X

We have goats and sheep and we were planning on using goat and or sheep tallow, as well as trying some of the others in the table. 

thanks for everyones input.


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## SeaGoat

Were all friends here.
No one is questioning you and your wife's intelligence..
No one is born knowing how to make soap. Everyone has to go through the frustration of trial and error. There is NOTHING embarrassing about asking for help. Let your guard down a little 


Okay, back to soaping.
Are those the ingredients you want to use?

This is my favorite soap calculator
http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/soapcalcwp.asp


Plug your numbers in there and calculate till your satisfied. 


Soaping is fun.
Dont fret


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## MDKatie

We would love to help you figure out better prices, harmon, but if you could post the exact recipe it would be much easier. The list of ingredients you posted includes lard, so I'm not sure that's the list of oils she's using. 

Also, some of those ingredients you listed may be more expensive ones, which could be why your wife's prices are coming out higher. As for the goat/sheep tallows, you'll have to figure how much you get once you butcher the animals and see if you'll get enough for soap making, depending on how often you butcher animals. I'm not sure there's much fat on a goat, so you may not be able to rely on goat fat.


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## BackfourtyMI.

http://soaperschoice.com/

The link above is where I order some of my oils from.
They have a lot of different oils but I didn't check for all the one's you have listed in the above post.


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## harmon

Thanks for all the help. My wife just had our first daughter six weeks ago maybe she's reluctant to start with the soap. That's fine I'll do the first batch. I'm doing national guard work until Monday but then will post the recipe and what I plan to to order here first.


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## halfpint

Whether or not you can make a profit from your soapmaking depends a little on your area, in addition to how well you can market. If there are already a lot of soapmakers, then it's unlikely that you'll be able to get into the market there. Most that I know sell at craft fairs, and some fairs limit the number of entrants per item, so you might need to get on a waiting list for soapmaking. Around here, most of the soapmakers sell their soaps (usually at about 4.5 oz) for $4.00-$5.00 per bar. I've been in other areas where the cost is higher and they were still selling a lot of soap. I don't sell my soap, but do have a barter system with a few people. I swap soap for beeswax and honey from a friend, and he recently told me he needed some soap while out of town and went to a local fair, and it was $9.00 per bar no bigger than mine, and people were buying it. Since many of my friends and family request soap for gifts, I figure my savings is in what I would have otherwise spent for gifts. 

I don't buy in large quantities as I want my ingredients to be fresh, and many oils/butters have a short shelf life (some as low as 6 months, where most are a year to two years), so in buying smaller quantities my individual soap cost is a little more. 

I have on occasion been asked to do a special recipe that was expensive, and I've had them purchase the special ingredients for me. Two years ago a family of hunters asked me to make a hunting soap with oakmoss absolute, several different essential oils of pine, birch, spruce, fir and anise; and it was quite expensive due to the essential oils. They purchased the essential oils, I made a log of 23 soaps and they got 12. Others whom I gave the soaps to loved them and have asked for more, so we are doing the same thing again this year - she gave me the oils this weekend and I made the batch last night. My logs are 24", but I cut off about 1/4" at each end, and get about 23 bars from the rest. I also have a 12" mold that I use for smaller or experimental batches. You can save a lot of money by making your own mold if you like a log type soap. 

I also do not like lard in my soaps, I've had reactions to it several times, but I honestly think it is because it because of chemicals in the lard rather than an allergy to the lard. I've had reactions twice to restaurant salads and once to eggplant parmesan, and know that I am not allergic to anything in the salad or eggplant parmesan, which is why I think it is a chemical issue. Since I mostly eat organic or chemical free foods, I don't normally have a problem.

Congratulations on your new daughter! When my children were young, I always made soap after they went to bed as I knew it was unlikely that they could get into it, and I wouldn't need to stop in the middle of making it.

Dawn


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## lathermaker

Post the formula that you plan on using and we'll help you source the supplies. You aren't the only guy on this forum....there are several that pop in every once in a while.


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## harmon

Thanks for the help again. I found several recipes on http://www.soap-making-essentials.com

I would like to try the goat milk one here 
unless there's a consensus here I should be starting with a basic one like the ones listed here
http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/basic-soap-recipe.html#.VFwjivnF98E

of the basic ones my wife likes Avocado Oil Soap - Palm Free one. 

After I married my wife 6 years ago I taught her how to make wine and now she makes it and beer better than me. I may make the first batch of soap but she probably will. But one of us will as soon as we get everything figured out. And thanks for the help so far and thanks in advance once we figure out how to get out stuff and make it. We were really wanting to do the goat milk one since we have dairy goats.and the Sweet Citrus Honey since we have bee hives. I will wait to see if it is recommended for the first batch. Lastly I just noticed Hoeggers has soapmaking supplies, I've done business with them for my goats in the past - I cant speak highly of them as of the present. Does anyone have experience with them?
http://hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/Soap-Making-c-223/


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## MDKatie

I buy my olive oil at Sam's Club, because they have the cheapest price and I don't have to pay shipping. Costco or BJ's probably has comparable prices on their olive oil. I don't get extra virgin for soap making, just regular. 

For coconut oil and palm oil, I now buy through soaperschoice.com. It definitely pays to buy in bulk! I also get Avocado Oil through them sometimes, and sometimes castor oil too. 

I buy some oils at Wholesale Supplies Plus...things like shea butter and cocoa butter, which I don't use a ton of. I also sometimes buy castor oil, avocado oil, and sunflower oil through them too. Their prices on coconut and palm oils has really skyrocketed in the past year, so I don't buy those from them any longer. 

I get lye online, and last time I got it was from Essentials Depot I believe. 

Hoegger has high prices on their oils, and very tiny amounts. Fine if you want to make a batch or two, but not if you want to really start making and selling soap. 

Brambleberry also has lots of stuff, but their shipping is kind of pricey IMO. 

Really you just have to shop around! I quit wasting time with little 7 lb buckets of oils and now I order the big 50 lb buckets. If I had more storage space, I'd go bigger.  And write down prices so you can keep comparing, every time you shop. Different vendors are better with some things than others.


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## harmon

50 lb buckets! I didnt know there was such a thing! You must make soap as a regular job. Sams is the only warehouse around where I live (in Joplin) and thats most of an hour's drive from here. I will start window shopping online though at the places you mentioned. My wife said she thought Lowe's had Lye.(?)


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## MDKatie

harmon said:


> 50 lb buckets! I didnt know there was such a thing!


I wish, but not exactly! I just found that it is waaaay cheaper to buy it in larger quantities. But I bought the smaller buckets for about a year before I moved to the bigger buckets.


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## wthchristi

Not sure if I should respond to this as I have a bit of a soaping addiction problem and spend much money on supplies, molds, micas, fragrance oils, packaging, etc. My hobby became an addiction and now I do a ton of shows....finally got tired of giving so many away. 

My suggestion- start small with a simple, small 3 oil recipe- olive, coconut, palm and water. Save the milk until you get the hang of what the process is all about. Learn what trace is and get the hang of it. If you start to complicated it is easy to give up. Get a few successes under your belt, then add other oils butters depending on what you want in your soap. Finally, go to goat's milk...remember to freeze it first as it makes it easier to work with (ice cubes work amazing). Find a good soaper's site- there are a couple good facebook groups that are rather amazing. The price of my soap, per bar is dependent on lots of factors- $100 seems a bit steep and you can definitely do it for less getting started. Feel free to pm me and I will give you a few supplier's links that I use. Happy soaping!!!
:thumb:


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## harmon

Thanks. My wife has a Lush addiction I'd like to change to your addiction. And she's good at making stuff from recipes


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## NostalgicGranny

http://www.soaperschoice.com is the place to go for 50# buckets of oils. 

As to the lush addiction . . .
The funny thing about soapmaking is it quite often leads to making other things like lotions, bath bombs, body butter, etc. There are tons of lush dupe recipes out there. Grab a few and play with them right along with your soap recipes. Match your ingredients and scents to your soaps and create your own line of products.

Don't just grab a soap recipe from online. Always run it through a soap calc. *Always.* Typo's happen. Mistakes happen and even the most trusted site can post a bad recipe. If the recipe you are interested in calls for lard take it to soap calc and sub tallow or whatever you want and go from there. Research your oils. Some oils should only be used in certain amounts. Know the rules, before you break them. Of course breaking the rules is half the fun, but sometimes it leads to a failed batch. Lastly almost every failed batch can be saved somehow. Learning how to save them is where the real soapmaking learning comes into play.


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## SeaGoat

I put my soap up for sale back in October and I sold out last week. 
Very surprised about that. 

It definitely paid for itself in supplies. Does it cover the cost of goats? 

Eh.. maybe not 100%
But to be honest I gave away/used over half the soap I had before I stated selling it,  so potentially, yes, it can surely help a lot with cost.


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## Dinghy

harmon said:


> 50 lb buckets! I didnt know there was such a thing! You must make soap as a regular job. Sams is the only warehouse around where I live (in Joplin) and thats most of an hour's drive from here. I will start window shopping online though at the places you mentioned. My wife said she thought Lowe's had Lye.(?)


 The Lowes near me didn't have it, but Tractor Supply does. It's Roebic brand.


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## harmon

Thanks dinghy


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## harmon

Sarah maybe not 100% sounds pretty good right now


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## NostalgicGranny

If you are looking for lye locally try a mom & pop hardware store. They will be the ones most likely to carry it. It will be cheaper to buy it in bulk online. Bramble Berry carries the flakes which is easier to measure than the beads. The beads have a tendency to jump out of the container so make sure if you get beads that you use a deep container. I just bought some beads on amazon 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PKNKOS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

because it came with free gloves and I didn't realize they were beads, but it is almost gone and I do not make to sell, so you can see 2 lbs goes fairly quickly. To sell you definitely want to buy lye in larger quantities than my measly 2 lbs. Here are a few places:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/
http://www.thelyeguy.com/store.php
http://www.dudadiesel.com/
http://www.brambleberry.com

Hoeggers is a great site for goats but you really want to buy your suppliers from a soapmakers supply website. Bramble Berry, essential depot, soapers choice, WSP places like that know some of us just do it for fun and some of us do it for a business. 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PKNKOSU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## MamaTiger

Our Lowe's used to carry the lye, but now does not. I will try TS, but I bought it online last time I needed it.

I use wholesalers for supplies mostly. But be sure to price check around before buying anywhere.

I do sell thru dh's business...and it is a fun thing to do. I use cow's milk rather than goat's but I do suggest making several batches in a very simple recipe first to get the hang of it and use water first too before switching to milk. There is a definite learning curve with soap making.

Once you know what you are doing, sit down with your costs per item, add it up according to your recipe and then figure out your per bar cost.


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## MullersLaneFarm

I buy my lye through Boyer Corp 40 lb at a time


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## vixcottage

I get my lye @ Ace Hardware. They order it for me by the case. I have sold my goat milk soap @ farmers market but liability insurance costs $500/yr so takes a lot to break even.


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## Jlynnp

Most of my soaps include palm oil, coconut oil, olive oil and castor oil. If I am going to use more expensive oils I will use them in a leave on product such as a lotion or body creams. I remember my very first batch of soap years ago, I used Crisco for it. It was easy and made a great soap for shaving your legs.


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## harmon

Wthchristi can you please post a recipe or link 5o one for a 3 oil soap using the 3 you wrote?

I'm ready to start


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## Tinker

Harmon, I would forget about the butters for your 1st few batches. They are expensive, and your 1st batches may not come out that well. I see you have found Kathy Millers site---she has several wonderful, simple recipes. Why not try 1 of them, until you get comfortable with the process, then move on to the more complicated and expensive recipes?

Good luck and have fun---soap making can be addictive!


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## Jlynnp

My suggestion for a first batch or even a basic soap is :
Castor Oil 10%
Coconut Oil 25%
Olive Oil 45%
Palm Oil 20%

Run it through Soap Calc using the batch size you want to make so you get your water (or milk) and lye amounts right, my mold holds 120 ounces and makes 25 bars, I superfat at 7%. As for cost to make using Soapers Choice and buying everything in 7 lb containers the cost for oils only to make a 120 ounce batch comes out to 20.66 which is less than a $1 a bar. including shipping, lye and water or milk - whatever liquid you choose it should total less than $26 a batch so a bar costs $1.04 to make.


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## harmon

Is it 100%?

If it isnt 100% lye how do I measure it for lye in teh recipes?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...&catalogId=10051&storeId=10151&searchTerm=lye





MamaTiger said:


> Our Lowe's used to carry the lye, but now does not. I will try TS, but I bought it online last time I needed it.
> 
> I use wholesalers for supplies mostly. But be sure to price check around before buying anywhere.
> 
> I do sell thru dh's business...and it is a fun thing to do. I use cow's milk rather than goat's but I do suggest making several batches in a very simple recipe first to get the hang of it and use water first too before switching to milk. There is a definite learning curve with soap making.
> 
> Once you know what you are doing, sit down with your costs per item, add it up according to your recipe and then figure out your per bar cost.


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## halfpint

harmon said:


> Is it 100%?
> 
> If it isnt 100% lye how do I measure it for lye in teh recipes?


According to the label (link below), it is 100% sodium hydoxide which is pure lye, so it should be fine. You should use a scale that measures mass to at least the nearest tenth of an ounce. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/roebic-heavy-duty-crystal-drain-opener-2-lb?cm_vc=-10005

If something is not 100% sodium hydroxide (or potassium hydroxide which is also lye but typically only used for liquid soaps), you should not use it in soapmaking.
Dawn


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## MDKatie

That description says "contains 100% lye", so I'm not sure if it's ONLY 100% lye or lye plus other stuff. If it has other stuff, DO NOT use it for soap making. It has to be ONLY 100% lye.


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## harmon

Do you have instructions to go with those ingredients? Another girl here PMd me that I should make my first batch with coconut, Olive and Palm oil but didnt send directions beyond that. It looks like theres a set procedure to it and just the ingredients change because I keep seeing ingredient lists but no instructions. But thank you for the below. I will try to use the soap calc tonight and get the TSC lye tomorrow too.




Jlynnp said:


> My suggestion for a first batch or even a basic soap is :
> Castor Oil 10%
> Coconut Oil 25%
> Olive Oil 45%
> Palm Oil 20%
> 
> Run it through Soap Calc using the batch size you want to make so you get your water (or milk) and lye amounts right, my mold holds 120 ounces and makes 25 bars, I superfat at 7%. As for cost to make using Soapers Choice and buying everything in 7 lb containers the cost for oils only to make a 120 ounce batch comes out to 20.66 which is less than a $1 a bar. including shipping, lye and water or milk - whatever liquid you choose it should total less than $26 a batch so a bar costs $1.04 to make.


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## harmon

halfpint said:


> According to the label (link below), it is 100% sodium hydoxide which is pure lye, so it should be fine. You should use a scale that measures mass to at least the nearest tenth of an ounce.
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/roebic-heavy-duty-crystal-drain-opener-2-lb?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> If something is not 100% sodium hydroxide (or potassium hydroxide which is also lye but typically only used for liquid soaps), you should not use it in soapmaking.
> Dawn


 oops I didnt think to click on the product. I still wouldve asked though since is says caustic soda after 100%^ lye. 

And thanks for answering too


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## NostalgicGranny

Lye is caustic. You need goggles, protective gloves to handle it. 

You will also need a scale. A good sized stainless steel pot or plastic bowl. A heat proof container to mix your lye water. Various smaller containers to mix additives with, a few long handled spoons. A whisk, spatula, and stick blender help out a great deal. 
Soap Queen has some good beginners tutorials She also has a video on lye safety.
http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-b...e-beginners-guide-to-soapmaking-cold-process/


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## NostalgicGranny

Here is a link to soap queens video on lye safety
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6ttCSrLJI&list=PLAADF6209996265D2&index=1[/ame]


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