# Can't find Ammonium Chloride. Substitute?



## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

I have a bottle buckling who is on whole cow's milk. This morning he didn't act hungry and I noticed that both his sides were puffed up. Looking further, he hasn't peed anywhere that I could see. I certainly suspect UC. I immediately gave him some Banamine, hoping he could relax enough to urinate. He peed a small amount about an hour later. He has never strained or cried. He isn't good about eating yet, so doesn't really eat hay, gets no grain, plenty of cow's milk and tap water. 

I called several vets, 3 farm stores, and the 2 feed stores. No one carries ammonium chloride. Is there a substitute I could use in a pinch?

I've never kept AC on hand as I don't feed grain to the goats. They have free choice Sweet lix minerals, grass and alfalfa hay, and alfalfa pellets.

Also, I did try the manual manipulation, but cannot feel anything lodged in the urethra. I could amputate the pizzle, but if there is a stone above the S, then that would just be unnecessarily cruel wouldn't it? Below the S, the Banamine should provide enough pain relief and anti-spasmodic to pass grit.

During my web research earlier, I read where some water can contain too much in the way of minerals and is suspect in some cases of UC. I've had an ongoing problem with tomcats/neutered toms the last few years with this same problem. They were also on special diet foods for kidney/bladder stones, but without success. 

Anyway, is there a likely substitute for AC that I might be able to use?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

how old is your buckling? i really doubt that this is uc. do you feed him grain? 
have you taken his temp? is he vaccinated for entero?


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I also doubt it is UC. If he is young & gets no grain it is very unlikely. Not sure how you could tell he peed anywhere since it would soak in the ground. ??? If he was puffed up then he may be bloated. Give him some baking soda. Mix it with water until you can syringe him with it. Walk him around & rub his sides. I have had bottle kids refuse a bottle at one feeding. I don't worry unless they refuse more than one feeding or they are acting really off.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I bought some AC at the Fiasco farm website.

I'm not sure but I don't think really young goats get it especially if they haven't been eating grain.


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

He stays inside, and puddles on the floor. No puddles, no peeing. This goat normally pees several times an hour. This baby drank nearly half a gallon of milk last evening. He peed a small amount one time this morning. He's not bloated, sort of puffy looking on both sides. I'm sure he'd have been dead by now if it were bloat. He's 7 weeks old. Fairly normal temp, a little high, but he's laying in front of the heater. He was wormed and decocced at 3 weeks. Has normal stools and doesn't appear to strain. 

I have CD antitoxin and will give him a shot of that. What really concerns me is the puffy sides (both sides equally) and the fluid intake minus the outgo. He's a little livelier this evening and is browsing at his hay better, chewing cud, but quiet and the really big thing for me, not peeing.


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

Finally! He just made a little puddle on the floor. About an hour and a half after I gave him some more Banamine.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Glad he has peed! However drinking almost a half gallon sounds like a whole lot of too much to me...this IS a buckling and not a calf right? And what age?


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

He's made one small pee in the last 13 hours. 7 weeks old. He drinks plenty of milk and I leave water out for him during the day, which he also drinks alot of. This is why I'm so concerned about the dry floor today. I should have come home to a bunch of puddles.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

How many doses of banamine have you given him? I think there is a limit on what is safe.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

pipevet.com is where I get my AC. Vicki


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

I can order the AC, so can the vet, but nobody actually had it on hand, me included, when I needed it. Lucky for Rudy, the Banamine worked to his favor. He made several good sized puddles last night within 2 hours of his 2nd shot of the day. He peed again this morning and seems to be back to his buggery little self now. He was plenty ready for his milk, bleated when he heard me coming in and promptly jumped down off of my computer desk. So I think he may be out of the woods for now. 
The cause of his problem is my concern. He gets no grain, has minerals, both grass and alfalfa to choose from, is on cow's milk. I mentioned earlier of water being suspect in other cases of UC, and I've had a lot of experience with it in cats over the last few years. I suspected the water in their cases, since they were on special kidney diets to prevent UC, unsuccessfully in most cases. I've had 5 cases, 4 actually confirmed, of renal failure in cats. So, I'm thinking Rudy will be drinking distilled water until he goes out to pasture, just to be safe.

Thanks for all your suggestions.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Do you have a lot of iron in your water?


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

fishhead said:


> Do you have a lot of iron in your water?


Don't know. It's city tap water sold to the rural water dept. I've never tested it myself. I do suspect that it's the cause of those 5 tomcat, and now Rudy, to have UC, since that, and the fact that they were all kept indoors, so the tap water was their only source of hydration. I believe the water is the common thread.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I would keep him on AC then. 1 teaspoon per day. It's a mineralized salt. There are places in Texas that without AC in large doses daily they can't keep bucks alive, they have high levels of sulfur in both their water and pastures. Vicki


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't know how much sulpher is in our water, it tastes pretty good. I lived in NE OK in the mid 80's and everything that was mixed, cooked with, or washed with tap water tasted and smelled like boiled eggs. 

Rudy is completely back to normal now, and is back to irritating the C--P out of me again. lol

Thanks again for all the suggestions.


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## LMonty (Jul 31, 2006)

potassium chloride- I have read that in an article or two as a viable substitute. More costly for routine use, but can be found in potassium supplement pills in just about any place that carrys vitamins. Mortons lite salt also has it, but thats a mix of KCL and NaCl about half and half. In an absolute pinch, it might be worth considering, since the salt itself will increase water intake which is a good thing. 

I have no scientific proof in goats, but studies in humans show acidifying the urinary tract really decreases urolithiasis (stone formation). Since that is what AC does, I assume its the same process in goats. Some fruit juices- most notably lemon and cranberry are great for urinary health in humans because of it. Lemon juice has been shown to decrease stone formation at a couple of tbs per day. Wether it helps reduce the size of already formed stones rapidly enough to be of benefit, I dont know. But both are readily available and putting some (equivalent to about two ounces a day for a mature full size buck, half that for minis) in drinking water should be of no harm and some potential good if youve got a crisis. 

I'm just thinking this through, its something I would try if in a similar situation because to me in the absence of any other info to show its harmful, the risk benefit ration seems to tilt toward trying it in my mind if I was in similar situation. Vicki or some of our other experts should be able to weigh in if its got any known downside.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Can/do they ever break up the stones in goats with ultrasound like the do in people?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am leasing a buck, and he's in with my three does. I don't want him to get stones, obviously, but he's eating the same things they do. With the exception that I got him some goat ration that has a certain amount of ammonium chloride in it, and he gets a couple of cups of that per day in a bucket that I personally hold, so I know he's getting it.

I ordered some ammonium chloride before I found this feed. If you administer the ammonium chloride instead of using the treated feed, how do you give it to them?


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