# Over-gunned



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

For lack of a better word, I guess.

Over-gunned refers to a common problem we see down here in concealed carry classes. A lady decides she wants to take the class and she shows up on range day with a gun much too powerful for her level of pistolcraft. It's usually a .357, .40 or a .45 that belongs to her husband/brother/boyfriend/etc.

She can't hardly hit the ground with it, because it doesn't fit her hand and she's scared to death of it.

Most instructors I know down here, ask politely if she'd like to shoot one of the their guns...the gun almost always being a .22 of some flavor. With a bit of coaching, most ladies shoot pretty durn well, easily good enough to qualify.

Does this sound like what's happening in your neck of the woods?


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Traditional thinking would dictate a 32,380,9mm or 38 for the beginner gun for a female. Even with this step down the sound alone is too intimidating for many.I think a much healthier match to be the 22mag or 17hmr. Of course this means going to a wheel gun but that in it's self is less intimidating than an auto loader for beginning shooters.Establishing confidence with the weapon will allow all things following to be easier throughout the training, and both these round have advantage over the larger calibers as in penetration etc and would make a good carry gun.


Wade


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## Westexas (Apr 10, 2013)

After I qualified with the 40cal, I went out and bought a Walther P22 for my CC weapon. Still carry the 40 in my vehicle, though. So yes, it would be advantageous to do the training with the gun one will carry, but as you pointed out, one usually starts with a borrowed weapon from someone of the male persuasion, who wouldn't be caught dead with a 22!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

We don't have qualification here so it may be a little different 

but I had a lady telling me she wanted a 44mag I asked why, she said she wanted to know she had enough gun , and it was very much a mama bear instinct to protect her kids. so we had a nice conversation were we went over some points like any energy that leaves the target is wasted energy , and that your very likly to have to poke several holes for a stop even with a big gun.

so she left the conversation agreeing that she wanted the biggest thing she could shoot well and fast being able to empty the gun into a dinner plate sized target from 7 yards , and that she should go to a range and try several guns to find the one that fit her 

she had envisioned this as a home gun so size wasn't an issue , that she could trade some of the 44mags over penetration for more rounds that in a 9mm she could probably shoot a gun that held 15 or 17 rounds and that being able to put those rounds on target was more important than really powerful with long recovery time 

she had gone with the 44mag thinking because all the ladies in her office were going the mouse gun route that they wanted small and easy to carry , but she was more concerned with getting the job done.
I explained mouse guns weren't so bad because the best gun is the one you have with you but that they also didn't lend themselves to be easy to shoot accurately

I think many women proceed it more like they did drivers ed they needed a car to take the test and as long as it ran and was in good working order it didn't matter as much what it was, problem being there is no lever under the seat of a gun to move the seat up so they can reach the pedals 

I don't teach self defense type shooting training , the organization i teach for won't even let us use B-17 silhouette targets or any human shaped targets , thats politics but since I am teaching kids marksmanship and not adults in a self defense type class it is ok 

I would argue that if you started the students with air pistols and got stance and grip and accuracy down before you made them loud or recoil that you could make better shooters faster , then moved to 22s then center fire in a day you could make a decent shooter.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Same in this area since you have to do range time for a cc permit. Every one seems to think you need a hand gun with a bore the size of a 12" culvert.

A tiny 36gr. HP from a 22cal Hand gun in the knees will stop about any crazy. A 44 mag that ya can't hit th broad side of the barn with inside with the doors closed is usless. 

Women should tell the men in their life to get lost why shopping for a hand gun.

 Al


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

My wife quickly realized she bought too much gun for her.. She bought a S&W Bodyguard... Just too light for a 38 for her.. and too heavy of a trigger pull being DAO. She couldn't keep it on target, and it was making her flinch.. 

She tried my CZ-82 and loved it.. her flinching went away, and she can keep it on target very well.. 

I went and bought another CZ so she could have my other one... I now carry the Bodyguard as a snake gun with shot shells.. 

Glad I didn't try having her shoot any +P in that S&W


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

alleyyooper said:


> A tiny 36gr. HP from a 22cal Hand gun in the knees will stop about any crazy. A 44 mag that ya can't hit th broad side of the barn with inside with the doors closed is usless.
> 
> Al


you DO NOT want to go shooting people in the knee caps.. If you have to shoot someone, shoot to kill.. Not only will this keep you from getting sued by them, but it could keep them from pulling out a gun and shooting you...

BTW, I let my wife pick out the gun she wanted.. I wasn't real fond of her choice of the BG... but I figured it felt right to her... until she got to shooting it.. I would have never picked the BG for her... I knew that DAO would give her troubles.. just too much trigger...


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## badlander (Jun 7, 2009)

Agreed. A woman should be shooting the weapon she is comfortable with and can control. And if a woman has a caring man in her life who shoots, it is his responsibility to guide her down the path of marksmanship.

But it is up to the woman to choose the weapon that she is comfortable and her choice alone, and no body else's. If she is not asserting herself in this matter then the fault is her own.

I HATE seeing these YouTube vids where boyfriend puts a 12 gauge shotty into the hands of his 100 pound GF and then delights in filming her smacking herself in the head with the barrel from recoil. That's no way to inspire a woman to be proactive in self defense and desire a CCW.

We qualified with .22's at our CCW class in MO. I could just have easily done it with my Taurus .38 or my .45 1911. Our instructors insisted that we use provided .22s, however. 

So maybe in a sense it is the instructor's oversight not to provide an equalizing weapon for folks to qualify with. After all, they want to make sure people qualify and are able to protect themselves. And even carrying a .22 is better than no weapon at all.

Truth is, DH insists that for my own safety I be able to handle and shoot any weapon that might be available in a crisis and I agree with him. Be it a lowly .22 or a 44 mag. With something like the 44, I might only be able to get off 2 shots before my wrists give out, but, hey, two shots is all it takes sometimes..if you aim right. :rock:


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Playing devil's advocate, there is a valid argument for not under-gunning a beginner. It is the same logic that argues against starting a young hunter with a .410. While the reduction in recoil would suggest that it is a good choice, a sub-gauge is much more difficult to bring down a target- especially a moving one. Putting such a challenge on a new shooter can lead to frustration to the point of stifling their desire to practice. In order to figure out what they're doing wrong, a new shooter has to get it right from time to time in order to learn what "right" feels and looks like. Under-gunning can ensure that those first lucky "right" shots come fewer and further between, in the beginning when they are most important. 

In a defensive gun, energy is king. A round that makes the target feel like they've been struck with a hammer, even if shot placement was not ideal, can buy the shooter valuable tenths of a second for a follow-up shot. 

Wade pointed out that the .22 mag and .17 HMR have an "advantage in penetration etc.". I'm not sure what the "etc" is, but the only ballistic advantage those cartridges may have is penetration. The traditional defensive cartridges will be superior in every other way. Don't be fooled by the published ballistic data. That 22wmr data was taken through a 20 or 24" barrel, loaded with a propellant with a burn rate optimized for that barrel length. Put that same load through a 4" barrel and your velocity/energy are going to be a fraction of what the box says. Though I've never tested as such, I have a feeling that your penetration would nosedive below what the .38/9mm would do as well, reducing the 22/17 advantage to exactly nothing. 

When my wife went through CCW, I had her practice and get comfortable at home with a 22 LR. Then I handed her off to the instructor for the course. It was his POI and his test and the wife did not need two chefs telling her how to cook. 

Once we got home, the .22 was put away and she started shooting her 9mm (carry) and 38 (bedside). Once she got the basics down, I stepped back and now she does most of her shooting by herself. She practices 8-10 times per week, about 5-10 rounds per session. She decided that her most effective practice is drawing from holster, no more than 2 or 4 shots per draw, 2 or 3 draws per session- frequent sessions, low volume round counts with fresh eyes and fingers. She knows just enough now to know for herself what is effective and what is not, so I don't argue. 

Bottom-line: getting a new shooter over the initial hump of weapons fam, and the recoil and other parameters of the weapon, and being able to identify what really works for them and what does not is the most difficult part. After that, it is smooth sailing.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I have been thinking a Welcome to side arms type class that women can take in a very non threatening environment with instructors at a closed of portion of the range for the day where they start on air pistols , then 22 then try a few shots from a number of different current manufacture guns so that they can make the informed decision , about carry and have them bring a change of clothing and all go out to a known cool with carry restaurant in their normal cloths with a bunch of holsters they have tried out during the day including some breaks during the day with other women who carry guests talking and demonstrating how to conceal with a wardrobe , keeping it all very informative , hands on , and relaxed if was done as a 2 part class first part being the 4 hour carry class and since here in Wisconsin we do not have to qualify we would not have to put the chicken before the egg they could all be licensed to carry before the second half where they would be carrying in a public setting but with real guns in holsters they picked out and see if it works , if they have an issue with wardrobe or holsters they could excuse themselves from the table and have a good place to fix or remove their gun and encase in a discreet hand bag style gun case that they could hold or take to the car


on the flip side I think my wife could have passed any basic qualification shoot with about 20 minutes instruction on shooting handgun well maybe not timed reloads but i don't think many if any civilian qualification shoots require timed reloads, this was with a full sized 40S&W , i let her pick out the one that felt best in her hand , but what i did next was work up a load that just cycles the slide and not much more , it took the hole recoil component out of it for her and a gun she would have set down and walked away from with factory ammo she shoots very well I don't believe it says anywhere that you have to qualify with factory ammo.
my wife is not a gun person , she had never shot till we started dating , she did a few times and then not again till the kids were older and we had family range day but she can shoot that 40 very well , since she is only interested in targets I keep her supplied in these extra light rounds she doesn't even know what the real thing feels like , if they aren't interested in carry you can't push let offer to them any time they get an interest you will be right there but after that you have to let it be their decision.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I think most instructors fail to realize how much influence they have on their students.I was trained as a law enforcement range and weapons intsructor. I the course we learned that in any combat situation you WILL revert back to your original training. It is much easier to teach a person that has had no contact with a firearm than it is a student that has been brought up around guns because they have prior knowledge that will conflict with the way you are trying to teach.
I can admit to this myself. In LEO instructor school we learned the Police Assault shotgun carry.In this carry the shotgun is carried inverted on the back and swung upward into a simi-crouching sling supported shooting position.A few years often taking this course I was turkey hunting,using this carry. A bird got up in front of me and ,just as I was trained,I swung the gun around and dropped it with ease. Since I was using a method of carry I had learned,I continued using throughout the firing process by reaching down and picking up my empty brass just as we had to do in the course.After retrieving the brass I looked up just in time to see the bird slip into the brush. If I would not have picked up the brass I had plenty of time for another shot that was needed, but because we were trained to pick up that brass , that's just what I did and it cost me a bird.
The bad part of this is there is a good chance I would do the same thing in a firefight.It is VERY HARD to "unlearn" something.


Wade


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

You fellows remind me of the comment concerning men who carried the .32 revolver.

"If you shoot someone with that thing, and if he finds out about it, he will be very angry"

A few years back in a firefight a fellow killed several FBI agents who were using the 9MM weapons issued them. 

I taught my daughter to handle a Ruger .357 revolver. She loads it with .38 special ammo and can do reasonably well with it. If she needs it there will not likely be any long range shooting. At six or seven feet it will be hard to miss.

Anyone recall the stats on firefight distances? As I recall the distances were far shorter than our practice distances. Just put the front sight on the bad guys belly button and pull the trigger repeatedly.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Oxankle said:


> You fellows remind me of the comment concerning men who carried the .32 revolver.
> 
> "If you shoot someone with that thing, and if he finds out about it, he will be very angry"
> 
> ...


Seems to me it's 3.5' and duration of 2.1 seconds with average 3.7 rounds expended. Average hostage situation is 18.1 yards.LEO with 100% range score shoots about 30% in a combat situation .Average LEO kia is 7-8 years on force.Lot's more I can't recall.


Wade


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, Wade; 
I was thinking something like seven feet, but the distances were short. Keeping a cool head and putting it on automatic is a lot more important than dead-eye accuracy. You want that one hit to count.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Oxankle said:


> Well, Wade;
> I was thinking something like seven feet, but the distances were short. Keeping a cool head and putting it on automatic is a lot more important than dead-eye accuracy. You want that one hit to count.


Keeping your head in the game and situational awareness are by far the most important. In a combat situation you don't have time to use the sights. That's why they call it" point shooting"!


Wade


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Oxankle said:


> You fellows remind me of the comment concerning men who carried the .32 revolver.
> 
> "If you shoot someone with that thing, and if he finds out about it, he will be very angry"
> 
> ...


not sure what your trying to say , but if your thinking 38spl is more powerfull than 9mm because it is longer and .002" bigger you would be mistaken , even +p 38s can just barely touch 9mm ballistics with bullets up to 147gr it is the difference between a low pressure and a high pressure round


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## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

may be just my experience but i see more men overguned than women.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

2 tests for if your over gunned , first you should be able to put all the rounds your gun will hold on a 8 1/2 by 11 piece of paper from 7 yards in 6 seconds or less faster would be better and there is nothing scientific about this number but on average carry guns hold 6 rounds many hold 5 many hold 7 or 8 ,second the size or weight of your gun shouldn't keep you from carrying it every day. if you do carry it every day and do shoot it well enough to get your rounds on the paper then you are not over gunned , it is better to have a 22 than no gun at all.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Carry the most powerful you can shoot accurately and shoot easily. Many different scenarios can enter into this problem of being overgunned. For many recoil is a major factor...and they have a need to start at a lesser caliber. The GF's sis had given her a light 38 sp...she couldn't handle the recoil. I bought her a LCR in 22 mag, when they came out. She loves the feel of it and loves shooting it, shoots it well enough for defensive type situations...I hope she never needs it, but she is prepared better than she ever has been! She's also shooting different guns now, and getting a feel (and liking them!!!) I also keep her stocked up on Hornady's self defense ammo when I had a chance to buy it. And premium ammo has bettered SD guns significantly IMO! I'm wishing I had an LCR since shooting hers!

I figure most all pistol rounds are a poor choice in a defensive situation, but I carry one all the time. I carry a 9 for ease of carry and firepower(and that was a deciding factor to me), Would like to try some 40's and 45's now The 9 is beside me wherever I am. If it was as easy to carry concealed I would pack a good rifle or a shotgun. Carry pistol calibers are pretty anemic compared to long guns! I've shot so many critters with a rifle at all ranges with different combinations, I know how they will do.

Me thinks, you need to carry the biggest your comfortable with, or for home, and can shoot well, as well as afford practice ammo for. Get familiar with your firearm and shooting it! Get coaching, I've shot all my life, but I have a need for it yet.

You can be undergunned as well...when you realize you needed it and it wasn't by your side!


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## MattyD (Nov 22, 2010)

My wife loves shooting her Taurus 85 that she bought new back in '93. We went to the local indoor range a while back to blow the cobwebs out our guns. After her first 5 shots hit high on the target, she got down to businesses! One thing I like about her Taurus is it's one of the earlier all steel revolvers. 










L8R,
Matt


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm going to assume we're talking about a carry gun??

My ex-wife is 5' tall and 100 lbs...a wee thing, but a fine shot 'cuz we did a whole lot of shooting. She carried in an unzippered side-pocket of a small purse, and carried the purse in such a way that the weapon could be quickly accessed with her strong hand. Waaaaaaaaay back in the day, it was an old Rossi .38 spl. ....nothing fancy, but it shot well, and she shot it well. Years later, I picked up a stainless Bersa Thunder in .380. It's not a purchase I would have otherwise made, but a guy at work was in a bind, it looked unfired, had an extra mag, and the price was too low to pass up. That little thing turned out to be a dream; quite accurate for what it was, rock-solid reliable, and a slimmer profile than the Rossi, so just right for how she carried in the side pocket. She fired one mag through it and claimed it for herself. lol. It's definitely one to be considered as far as a small, low-recoil carry gun that throws more of a lick than a .22 or smaller bore. As keeps being repeated, a .22 or .25 is better than nothing, and it'll penetrate okay, but who wants to wait on an attacker to bleed out? An attacker needs to go down like he got hit with a sledge hammer.

Oddly enough, years later, I dated a gal who carried the genuine Walther that the Bersa mimmicks. I didn't like the thing, and the spring was so tight that she couldn't operate the slide. The "cheap" Bersa was a much better firearm.


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