# Is there a centerfire .22 caliber rifle for small games such as



## Oldcountryboy

the size of .17 hornets, etc? How much smaller is the 222 then a 223? Would it be overkill for small game such as squirrels?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

factory loaded 222 would be overkill for squirrel especially on in a tree the 222 is only a few hundred feet per second behind 223

but you can load it to whatever you want , a #4 buckshot ball can be loaded into 223 brass , as can a cast bullet to make it any where from a 22 short to a 22 hornet 

22 hornet , 218 bee , 219 zipper are some of the center fire 22 cartridges . there are also adapters to fire 22lr from a 222 or 223 that use a cartridge shaped adapter that the 22lr loads into you can pop it in just like it's a cartridge so if you want to carry it with a 22lr in it in a shirt pocket then if you have a squirrel that has been making a ruckus around your deer stand , remove the round from the chamber and chamber the adapter http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm


AR rifles have adapters that replace the bolt ,carrier and mag to allow you to feed and feed and fire 22lr


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## farmerDale

A run of the mill centerfire .22 for something the size of squirrels, is not really available, no. As green country said, the danger factor of a 22 centerfire is too high. Why not just a .22 magnum? Or simply use some CCI long rifle ammo, which gives a bit more speed and oompf than regular rimfire cartridges.

A .223 and .222 remington are nearly identical, but more practical for coyotes, foxes, woodchucks, or gophers at longer ranges.

I never knew about those inserts, green country. I will look that up.


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## Paquebot

I am one of few who have the "Magic .222" in my hunting area. I can shoot a .22 LR in my Remington 770 .222 and indeed shot a small deer with it one time when I didn't feel that it deserved a 60Â¢ .222 bullet. That was 1983 and .222 ammo hasn't gotten much cheaper. That shows how long that such adapters have been available. Only had a .22 Hornet in my hands once and that would have been about 1950 and haven't seen one since. An uncle bought one of the first .22 magnums sold in this state and that was his varmint rifle for a number of years on his farm. Should also mention that those "varmints" were brown things with long legs and an appetite for corn and soybeans!

Martin


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## Paquebot

Before there is a wonder how the inserts work, mine is just like the first depicted in GC's link to MCA Sports. Looks like a black fired brass that hasn't been cared for. Insert looks like something for a centerfire cartridge. That insert is about an inch long and the other end is flat except for about a 1/16th inch protuberance on one side. .22 LR goes in and then the insert behind it. Tip of .22 LR is seated right at the exit of the adapter. When fired, firing pin of rifle hits center of insert which propels it forward which in turns causes it to hit the .22 LR as a centerfire. Mine is even more unique in that my ejector is a blunt nail which I brought back from Denmark in 1979!

I did see a lot of options missing in the MCA link which were available 30 years ago. There were a number of 24" inserts which allowed .30 or similar to be fired in various shotguns from 20 gauge and up. With a lot of hunting areas being shotgun-only, I wonder how many hunters tried to give them that extra edge when there was no specific rule against it? 

Martin


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## alleyyooper

Lots of center fire 22 cals. on the market. at this time the 223 is probably the most popular due to the Military surplus ammo and brass. All the bullets used in them are the same dia and used in the 22lr, the difference is the bigger weights that can be pushed out the case of a center fire. As stated not very suitable for squirrels. 
222 223 are the shorter range sizes for out to about 200 yrds, The 220 swift 22 250 are for longer ranges like 400 yrds. and lots of wild cats.
they are more for varmint hunting such things as ground hogs prairie dogs and coyotes and wolves.

 Al


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## 1shotwade

I've got an "acer" 22lr-223 chamber adapter. They need to be "tuned" in the gun you are going to shoot them out of. That is to say you mark then and start at 12o'clock and shoot around the clock to establish where they will be most accurate and that might change at different ranges.Once you have identified the "sweet spot" you need to mark the chamber it ensure consistency.
I have others that tell me the rate of twist in your barrel has a lot to do with the accuracy of the adapter round. Many say the 22lr is much more accurate in the .222 and the 22 mag is much more accurate in the .223.


Wade


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## fishhead

Another thing to consider is the range of a high powered .22. I don't think I would want to be firing it at a squirrel hunting angle.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

rate of twist does have something to do with it , but part of it may well be that most 22lr is soft lead and if you over spin it you strip it in the rifling , most 22lr barrels are made 1:16

rate of twist is not so caliber specific , many manufactures used 1:12 or 1:14 twist on their 222 and 223 rifles but these were mostly bolt action guns the original M16A1 started out with slower twist 1:12 barrels , and later when stabilizing heavier bullets became a concern the twist rate was increased to 1:9 1:8 and 1:7

while most bolt action 223 varmint rifles still use the 1:12 rate of twist 

ruger used a 1:10 twist for many years on their Mini 14 rifle 

if you want to order a barrel you can have it cut any twist you want 

back to bullet composition , 22 mag is typically at least a copper plated this gives the bullts more strength to take the faster twist with out stripping 

about 2 years ago I had a co-worker give me 200 rounds of 22lr that had lead bullets , his AR with the 22lr conversion only liked the copper plated high velocity 22lr 

if I recall 22lr is specked at a .223 inch barrel and 223 the caliber is really .224 so poor fit and fast twist could easily degrade accuracy , also think about the huge free bore a 22lr has going through a 223 chamber before ti slams into the rifling 

that is a bit like putting a lug nut into a impact running it up to full speed then jamming it into the stud and wondering why it strips


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## tarbe

I have a great shooting Ruger in 22 Hornet. Well, it shoots great now. 15 years ago when I bought it it would not shoot groups any smaller than 4 inches at 100 yards. I had to glass bed it...then it shot 1 MOA regularly.

I load everything from 32 to 46 gr bullets. From 1,200 fps to 3,000 (those higher velocities with the 32 and 35gr). My go-to all around load is the 46 gr WW HP with 12.2gr of Lil Gun. Like the native Alaskans, I could kill all my meat with that load if I had to.

Tim

Those loads have killed pigs, turkey, coyotes, prairie dogs, and the usual assortment of small edible game.


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## bowdonkey

I have a Savage 223/12 gage. I load a Remington 55 gr FMJ over 5.5 gr of 700X, no kapok. The bullet is a flat base with a slightly rounded nose. A winchester 55gr FMJ with boattail and sharp nose tumbled. Had some go through the targer sideways at 25 yds. This shoots about 1700 fps and off a bench with open sights you can hit the base of 12 gage shells all day. The Remington load that is. Ideal small game load, but head shots are still recommend. With the Winchester bullet 8.5 gr of Green Dot boosted the speed to 2100 fps and took care of the tumble. Not good for small game but a super accurate cat and varmint load. I got these loads from a long forgotten source, but they said these fast burning flake shotgun powders needed no kapok in the case. I have no idea about pressures, but they never missed a beat no matter what the angle of the barrel. One other thing, I use a Lee factory crimper on all my reloads. REALLY makes a difference in accuracy. I always wondered what a dedicated bolt action with scope could do with this load. I have never experimented with cast bullets with this cartridge. It would be fun and interesting.


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## 1shotwade

Sounds like you got ahold of the old m-193 ball 55gr 5.56 nato. They were replaced in the late 60's by the 62 grain steel core after international complains the m193 was inhuman due to the tumbling and reversing after the strike. Even in a fmj they tore a big hole.I remember we got hold of some in 1970 in Vietnam and would file a few strokes angled across the tip in increase tumble and assist in jacket separation.They were still quite accurate ot to 400 yards.All 556 nato from that time period were tumblers,not the 223's and all 62 grain nato from then were steel core capable of penetrating a "steel pot" at 600 yards.I think the changeover took place in 68 or 69.


Wade


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## TMTex

I have a .221, which is probably overkill for squirrels. I'd think my pellet gun would suffice for them. Much cheaper and if I miss, it won't be tragic.


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## poorboy

Sumones tried to bring out a center fire equivalent of the 22 WMR..i think it wuz called the .22 Cooper...
Would like to see a straight walled .25 centerfire that would use the 25-20's 86 gr. bullet and achieve about 1400-1500 fps out of a 4 1/2" resolver..would be a very efficient cartridge for the handloader..i.e. squills to deer..A mold 'n' some lead and a fella could kep his self in some thrifty small game ammo..:thumb:


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

poor boy it isn't 22 but with a 30 your options open up some with 30 carbine,why worry about new chamberings or hard to find , a bit more lead you could load 357 brass for already very readily available pistols and rifles 105 gr swc you can load them from 6-800 fps for small game or target shooting , on up to full house loads with 125gr xtp doing 2k , you have your does almost everything to 100 yard gun in a pistol cartridge that has rifles easily available 

if your willing to go with a bottle neck cartridge 30-30 is hard to beat , I am loading little 90gr swc to sub sonic velocities for 25 yard small game , but also load 170 gr bullets to take most any game out to 100 yards , it doesn't make much of a pistol but the little 90gr swc are nearly as cheap as good 22 hunting rounds are these days.


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## bowdonkey

Pete, who makes that mold and what is the load?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Lee TL314-90SWC I run it through a .311 sizer and load in 30-30 cases I am working on the charge for best accuracy but the reading i was doing suggests 

2.7 to 3.2 gr bulls eye or 4 to 5 gr unique 

I am thinking about picking up some bulls eye but I currently have another pistol powder that is just a touch slower than unique and i am testing 4.5 gr of that it functions just fine now I need to get outside and test it for accuracy at 25 and 50, less powder and I didn't get clean burn and had left over powder in the barrel I may end up going 1100-1200fps with my load which makes it louder than the lighter load but potent also

it is about getting a clean burn and accuracy which is why you need 4-5 gr of unique you have to get the pressure up enough that it will burn clean , bulls-eye lights easier and burns clean with less of it so you can go slower , you only really need 850-900fps for this bullet to be very effective on anything you could shoot with a 22lr according to the guys that use it they say more effective than 22lr out to 50 yards


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## bowdonkey

Thanks Pete. An H&R 30-30 may be in the future.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

bowdonkey said:


> Thanks Pete. An H&R 30-30 may be in the future.


they have the .357 barrel now also and it can go on the SB1 shotgun frame , not just the SB2 rifle frame the smaller the case capacity the less you need to get the pressure to burn and less powder to get going 

hard to go wrong either way 


some day some one will have a 327 fedral rifle maybe , that could be interesting , but it can definitely be done very well with the existing 30-30 or 357

you can do these "cat sneeze" loads with basicaly any cartridge , but rimmed cartriges are easier , rimless bottle neck cartridges set the shoulder back in about 5 firings , but if your willing to dedicate and mark some cases just for very light loads you can do this in 308 , 30-06 or really any gun you want you have to play with the powder a bit ,larger cases need a bit more , but you need to make those cases as you have to drill out the flash hole with a #28 drill bit from the reading I have been doing , the power to set the shoulder back is coming from the primer not the firing pin.


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## bowdonkey

bowdonkey said:


> I have a Savage 223/12 gage. I load a Remington 55 gr FMJ over 5.5 gr of 700X, no kapok. The bullet is a flat base with a slightly rounded nose. A winchester 55gr FMJ with boattail and sharp nose tumbled. Had some go through the targer sideways at 25 yds. This shoots about 1700 fps and off a bench with open sights you can hit the base of 12 gage shells all day. The Remington load that is. Ideal small game load, but head shots are still recommend. With the Winchester bullet 8.5 gr of Green Dot boosted the speed to 2100 fps and took care of the tumble. Not good for small game but a super accurate cat and varmint load. I got these loads from a long forgotten source, but they said these fast burning flake shotgun powders needed no kapok in the case. I have no idea about pressures, but they never missed a beat no matter what the angle of the barrel. One other thing, I
> use a Lee factory crimper on all my reloads. REALLY makes a
> difference in accuracy. I always wondered what a dedicated bolt action
> with scope could do with this load. I have never experimented with
> cast bullets with this cartridge. It would be fun and interesting.[/
> ttt, for you Pete. This is a very accurate load.
> QUOTE]


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## joejeep92

Love my 22 hornet. During deer season I carry my 243 for double duty in the truck but any other time of year my 22 hornet is there for varmints. Anything from opossums, prairie dogs and skunks to coyotes and bobcats it turns the vitals to jelly. For such a small round it has awesome hydrostatic shock. I just use factory loads in my H&R so haven't played much with loading.


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## WesleyDS

With all of the surplus ammo for the 5.56 and the shortage of 22lr would it be feasible to just load with a primer and no powder for a short range small game load?
I realize you couldn't use it in an auto loader.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

WesleyDS said:


> With all of the surplus ammo for the 5.56 and the shortage of 22lr would it be feasible to just load with a primer and no powder for a short range small game load?
> I realize you couldn't use it in an auto loader.


just a primer will get you a stuck bullet in the barrel , but yes a small charge of pistol powder can get you a load that will make a 223 shoot 900-2000fps depending on the charge and powder


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## WesleyDS

That is what I would have been afraid of. But I thought that it might work because it works with the 22lr with cb caps.


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## bowdonkey

WesleyDS said:


> That is what I would have been afraid of. But I thought that it might work because it works with the 22lr with cb caps.


I've had Remington CB's get stuck in the barrel! Use caution. I like Federal and CCI. Also use the longs, easier to handle than the shorts and the same ballistics.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

lead is a better gliding metal and is 1/10 as hard as copper , you need a lot more push behind a copper jacketed bullet to get it moving down the barrel , but because it is so much harder it doesn't strip in the rifling so you can push it to almost 4k without it coming apart 

also jacketed bullets do not fill the bore like we do with lead bullets so gas escapes around the jacketed bullet 

the first thing to do when you start loading cast lead bullets is to forget everything you knew about jacketed and relearn the rules of cast


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## WesleyDS

That does make alot of sense Greencountrypete. That explanes the difference. 
Bowdonky I use the cb longs. Nice and quiet and hits small critters with plenty of authority.


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## K-9

If you reload go to www.imrpowder.com and check out the loads using trailboss powder, it give you low velocity loads with full case volume. It is not as efficient as some of the "cat sneeze" loads but you don't have the issues of small charges of powder in a larger case either. These loads could turn a 223 into a fine small game round if you wanted to use a centerfire 22 for such things. I used to squirrel hunt with a single shot 357 handi rifle using light wadcutter loads, they were very quite and did a nice job, but the state decided that you couldn't small game hunt with a centerfire rifle anymore so that ended that.


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## Dutch 106

Hey K-9,
After reading down the posts I was going to recomend Trailboss, with less documentation.
Nicely done,
Dutch


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