# Buck Down



## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I have not been on here in awhile as I have been so busy.
Right nw I have a buck that has went down 3 days ago. He is eating grains and haoy and drinking water. He is very weak though and cannot stand on his own. I have given him Ivermec Plus, CD&T, Bcomplex, BoSe, Red Cell, Yogurt, and LA 200 and Probios over the last three days-today being the third day. Still eating and drinking but no strength. No vets to treat goats. Hay is purchased hay. Other bucks with him are fine. They have also received Ivermec and CD&T shots. Eyelids and mouth pale. Will take yogurt and Red Cell by mouth fine. Rest are shots. Any ideas and help and assistance as to what might be going on? Stomach gurggling fine and burping and poop looks normal and no discolor to it. Just no strength to stand. Any help on medicines and dosages would be great. Thanks


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

The Ivomec plus you gave as a shot too? I always give the wormers orally, goats do much better when given them by mouth. What kind of buck is he & how much does he weigh? 
Have you taken his temperature?
Also does he have access to pasture where whitetail deer also browse?
Have you seen him pee so you can rule out Urinary Calculi?

Lots of questions but all the info will help folks here give best advice they can for your buck.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

FarmerJohn we need more information to help.

In the meantime stop the grain - offer hay and water only. Keep up the Yogurt/probiotics.

How much does he weigh?
What dosage Ivermec Plus did you give and how was it administered?
How much B-complex did you give by injection?
How much LA200 are you giving him, and how often?

Oftentimes we see owners giving the right meds but not in the correct doses, this is why we need to know his weight & dosages.

Any other symptoms? Temperature, stargazing, scratching, and is he urinating?? Does he cry out?

My first guess would be deerworm -Does he seem almost paralized, like you might see with Meningeal worm? 

2nd guess internal parasites but it's hard to guess when so little information is given. Are the bottom inside eyelids white or light or medium pink?

HF


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

Sounds like the M-worm, and usually, they can never recover. . . 

How are his inner eyelids in color?

Also, like others asked, peeing okay?


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

How much does he weigh? Approx. 120-140lbs. I can lift up one end or the other but not the entire goat.
What dosage Ivermec Plus did you give and how was it administered? First admin. was orally-2cc. Second day orally but he turned head and about half went on me. So third day did 2cc sbq.
How much B-complex did you give by injection? First day a conserative 1.5cc. Second day 1.5, Did some reading and third day did 2.5cc.
How much LA200 are you giving him, and how often? One dosage yesterday-evening-2cc.
Will remove grains. Not on pasture. That was why I stated purchased hay. Did not know if this worm can come in the hay bales. Seems to be no deer close to house and has never been signs of footprints in yard or barnlot. They are around as I see them on the bottom acreage but few and not often and goats are not in that area at all. Gets minerals and sun flowers seeds and treats. 

Temperature, stargazing, scratching, and is he urinating?? Does he cry out?

Temperature at 102. No stargazing no scratching. Head not twisting around. Sits and looks attentive and interested. Fecal looks good and regular. No blood no scours. Can't really tell on urniating as he is laying down but is wet under him. Sides do not appear distended. Gritting teeth but no crying out until I am round him and then he talks or bleats softly. No chest noise and no laboured breathing. 

Eyelids white until this noon time check and were looking a little pale pink on bottom inside. But not sure if it could also be an eye irritant. When he went down he was moving his head back and forth on the ground and got dirt in it. I cleaned it out and flushed it with tempid water. He was struggling to get up as opposed to symptoms. Jut has no strength to get legs under him at all. 

Meningeal worm-Not sure on this as I have never had it-yet-nor seen it. Have only read the posts as to the description. So if not recoverable then do I need to consider putting him down? Thanks so Much All.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Sounds like the deer worm to me also.

My friend cured a buck of it using injectible ivermectin but I think it took a while.

Oral wormers will not kill it once it's not in the gut.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Look at this thread for treating meningeal worm. The dosage of Ivomec Plus is 3 cc per 100 pounds. More explanation in the thread.

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=20361.0


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Sounds like "deer" worm also to me. Ivomect will kill it but you really underdosed him. I have treated it succesfully with a daily dose of safeguard (went out on a limb and listened to my vet despite my reservations) at 5xs the horse dose and banamine to reduce spinal swelling. The goat was fine within two days. Vitamine E should be given as well.

With the eyelids being pale he could just be weak from worms as well which the above will work for that as well, I would give him some injectable Iron and vitamine C to help him absorb the iron you can use the wafers as a treat. 

Good luck!


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

Does he seem able to move his legs or just weak? Anemia, if severe, can cause a huge degree of weakness. They normally do not drink with M-worm


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I agree it could be meningeal worm also could be Mycoplasma haemolama (spelling). Sounds like what happened to my Louie before he died and happened to a few kids at my moms house. 

Correct me if I am wrong guys and girls if its meningeal worms you should see improvement with in 24 hours correct? 

Read this thread.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=410504&highlight=alpaca+died


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

once an anti-inflammatory has had a chance to work you would see improvement if it was the deer worm (typically) but if its something that is causing him pain that can be a false lead. Both pain and swelling would come back once it wore off so its not something you can do a process of elimination on.

Creamers, the last doe I brought here that had it would drink, but as mentioned above we treated her generally and guessed at what was wrong with her.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

You gave him BoSe - did you have reason to believe he might have been selenium deficient? Sounds a lot like what I went through with my Boer buck when he went down with 'white muscle disease' he ate, drank and voided... but couldnt stand... we made a sling for him to get him up - took a couple weeks but we got him moving again.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I would not be so hasty to put your buck down. If he's not suffering and is eating fine, he deserves a chance to live. I would give him a decent shot at improvement before making that decision-at least a week.

Up your Ivermec Plus to 5cc's.
Give him Banamine 1.25 cc's.
Red Cell 4-5 cc's daily.
Probios are always good.

I would also give him 8 cc's b-complex-(Thiamine would be better at lower dose) not for DW treatment but as supportive treatment. You cannot overdose.

Your LA200 dosage sounds low. I thought it was like 5cc/100 lbs. You started it I would finish the treatment - 7-10 days depending. I never stop an antibiotic early once I start it - but that is just me.

Move him from side to side-pneumonia can set in as a secondary problem so you want to avoid that. 

Once paralysis sets in he probably won't recover. Usually what you see is what you get with MW-but don't jump the gun because swelling plays a role also, and he may be a bit better once the swelling is under control.

HF


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

White eyelids means a Blood sucking worm...... Deer worm is marrow and brain based, goats will have pink eyelids and just go slowly down as the worm works its way through the body.

You have HC, worm dosage was too small on day one, but you might have enough in him now, I give 2X what you did when I bring someone here with worms. Make sure you give him a full dose at 10 days from first if he is still alive.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Either way the Ivermec will take care of it and the dosage the buck received is still too low. 

It could also be a combination.

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks so much guys. What though is HC in the post from Natural Beauty Farm? Going to go check on him again. He is drinking water fine and eating hay. Withdrew grains. Will try and get him up on his feet but if not, wil definately try and roll him around a little. Thanks again and will be checking back in soon. Gave the Bo-Se just in case.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Parasite Link:
http://sheepandgoat.com/articles/IPM.html

HC Haemonchus Contortus also known as Barber Pole worm is a blood sucking stomach worm that causes anemia. It is a real problem down in southern states, and a problem in northern states in summer. It was the reason the FAMACHA system (eyelid check that you did) was developed as de-wormers started to become inneffective against this killer. 

This is also why you should be dosing with de-wormers at effective doses .... underdosing creates resistance to the de-wormers. Not picking on you only trying to explain. Resistance to de-wormers is really becoming a problem - there are no more in the scientific/research pipeline being developed (in this country, anyways).

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

What would the Thiamine dosage be? Just checked him-gave him shots and medicine. He is drinking fine. He is eating hay just fine. Burping is good and some rumen action going on. Coughed up a cud while I was working with him. Moved him around. Breathing normal and not laboured or raspy. Temp is 102. His berries look good and solid and not real dark and no sign of blood. Hay is wet under him so he is urinating. If he had urinary problems, what is the treatment and/or preventive? Would it be 7-10 days on all medicines? Eyelids of both eyes upper and lower-are now a very pale all over pink cast.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

So if after the Ivermec Plus doages then the next time around to deworm for all the goats shold be something different just in case? I worm twice a year-spring and fall. Should I switch to a three month schedule or a 4 month schedule to be precautionary?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Thiamine is a vet script. Since it's only a supportive I'd give 1-2cc.

Urinary problems would be UC - Urinary Calculi - blockage - often fatal. Ammonium Chloride is used as a preventative especially in wethers, often bucks also daily. If he's urinating & not straining this isn't the problem - at this time.

I give 7-10 days on antibiotics. Ivermec Plus 7 days (for MW treatment). Banamine I try to stop at 4 days unless absolutely necessary. Anemia takes a long time to recover from-sometimes months of treatment with Red Cell or iron injections. HC or barberpole de-worming treatment would be as stated prior: dose, repeat in 10 days, then again in 10 days to break the life cycle of the worms.

I would not just switch de-wormers for the reasons I stated (there are other schools of though on this). The general protocol is to perform a fecal before de-worming, then again after de-worming to see if the de-wormer is effective against any resistant worms. You can do that now with your other goats but you don't have the time with this boy. You will get an idea (if you hadn't de-wormed them) of their wormloads and types of worms you have on your farm. 

For MW treatment stick with the Ivermec at the high dosage for 7 days - it has to get past the blood-brain barrier to kill the worm. Then you decide if he is able to function with no major issues. 

Have you checked him for lice? 
Was your weather really wet this year? Wet warm weather means more worms (of all types) and yes they would need more de-wormings than your normal spring & fall, or if it was inneffective. 

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

No signs of lice. But our weather has been awful. Lots of rain for days then stops and then started in again. Seemd like the ground never really dried hard after mid to late June until now. Suppose to start in again next week with rain. If giving iron injections then what is that dosage and for how long?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I don't have the Iron inj in front of me - inject by the label. Really you are better off with the redcell because he'll be getting many needles.

An afterthought: check to make sure his eyes follow your hand. Had a buck go down (& lost him) back in 08. An obvious sign I hadn't noticed was he was blinded - not stargazing but lost his sight.
He had symptoms similar to your bucks only with fever- but vet couldn't pointpoint it as symptoms didn't point directly at one problem - we had stopped the antiobiotics thinking listeria/polio or poisoning- necropsy showed pneumonia. 
HF


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Youve gotten some great advice here the only thing I can add is to put some nice dry straw under him.
Hoping he pulls through for you!
Current vital signs sound promising.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

Barber pole will not be phased by ivermectin - give quest gel at 1cc per 100lbs ASAP - then again in 10 days. . .and 10 days after if eyelids aren't bright pink.

I lost two Llamas to M-worm, and they never drank, but I've heard it isn't quite as bad in goats.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

How is he this morning?


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

The buck is still here with us! He is very attentive, follows me with his eyes and chews on my boots. Eating hay good, drinking water ok. Temp is still a consistent 102. No change in eyelid color from last night. Berry's are plentiful and still solid and still a brown color though not a light brown. Looks like all of the other goat berries. Still just beginning to show a slight light pale pink coloring. Rumen is rumbling and gurgling. Maybe the increased meds will make a difference today. 

Do I want to give the Quest in addition to the Ivermec? 

How far apart should these meds be? An 8 hr. schedule or a 24 hr. schedule or maybe a 12hr? Has me perplexed for sure.

There was a web site with how to do fecals yourself? I need to learn this. Thanks again everyone for all of your help and input. Could not do it I do not think without your support and assistance and vast knowledge.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Just wanted to add, it is VERY important to try to keep him propped up off of his side. I used pillows to do it for a doe, she was with me for nearly two months. Prop him so he is laying on his belly, more upright if you follow? And if it is getting cool, use old blankets to cover him at night. Since he is urinating under himself he will need help staying warm overnight.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

How to:

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/fecals.htm


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Hay bales can prop him up, too; one on either side of him to keep him in a "normal" on-his chest position. I used puppy piddle pads underneath my little goatie when she was in the house being treated; evey morning & evening I would pull the soiled piddle pads out from under her and replace them with fresh.

It sounds like he is a real fighter and I'm so glad you are giving him your all; I know it is exhausting! The pure Thiamine (B-1) injections under the skin is what really kept my little doe eating and being bright. Thiamine supports the rumen/digestion and a goat that is still ruminating and chewing cud is a goat that has a real chance! There IS Thiamine in B-Complex, but you have to give them quite a whack of it to reach the proper pure Thiamine level.....I think I was giving my little 80 lb goatie 6-8cc of the B-complex 3x per day until the vet was able to prescribe the pure Thiamine. Then, it was only 1-2cc Thiamine 2x per day thereafter.....


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Jill, I can take your excellent suggestion one step further, if I may? Human incontinence pads are cheaper, you get more of them for the dollar, they are more absorbant and almost twice as big.  When Duke, my 150 pound GSD was paralyzed, I used these until I broke down and sent away for the cloth pads that you can wash...which I swear by, incidentally. Gosh, I wish I had thought of these when my Sandy Goat was down. What a great idea!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

If he were my buck & I wasn't sure if it was MW or Barberpole I would keep up with the Ivomec plus & I would also give him the Quest for 3 doses at 10 day intervals.

Keeping my fingers crossed for your buck. His temp, & peeing, pooping, rumen functioning, etc. all sound good so don't give up on him yet. He may just surprise you!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm glad he's still with you! 

1x day on the Ivermec for at least a week. RedCell 1x daily until lower eyelids pink up.
LA200 1x daily for 7-10 days. Thiamine or B-Complex 1x a day.

Ivermectin still works on HC here, I've never used Quest, can't offer help there.

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

So-what is used for lice? He has a dark coat and two of the other three do also. The baby is black and white. But his white area looks kinda suspicious. Could be lice and could be bits of fiber from hay and straw. I read that Sevin is not good. If the Ivermec kills lice-how long till that takes affect on lice?

Buck is still here and very much eating and chowing down hay. Temp ok. Coughing up a cud. Drinking good amounts of water. Berries still ok. Moved him around and up againt the hut so that he was able to lean against it and covered him with his blanket. He is in shade and partial sun at the side of the hut and the hut gets warm through the day as it is a fiberglass one. He is trying to get up but just can't do it. Is getting thin though so am concerned about that. Doing meds in dosage everyone posted and giving the probios and yogurt with the the Red Cell.

Poor guy has got stuck with a needle so much and he has been so good about it. This evening though he was somewhat resistent to anything in his mouth and fought it a little. Did not mind the yogurt though once he realized what it was. Swallowing ok. I rolled him around tonight and firmly "patted" his front and sides to hopefully keep anything from building up in lungs. Do not know if that will work but thought it would not hurt.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Cylence for lice. It's a pour on.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Part his hair, so you can see his skin, move/check several places down along the spine area. You can see lice, they try to move back into hair when you part it. 

Ivermec is used for lice, also, don't double dose him. We've never really used the powder, except for chickens.

We prefer Permectin. It's a pour on, of the same family, but thick & oily we just pour down the spine. 

Move your boy from side to side (legs one side, then the other), several times a day if you can. Others gave some good suggestions. Do you have a hoist of some sort? We use an engine hoist for the boys-to weigh, trim hooves on wild ones, or we would use it in an instance like this to get him up, excercize his legs etc.

I don't know, he has no apparent rumen issues. Standard advice is to stop grain when a goat goes off or is ill. Thinking here....Do you have alfalpha cubes or pellets? I'd probably start him on the cubes if he were mine-slow at first. Alfalphaa is not grain - it is a better quality of hay, and it may help him keep some of his weight on. I'd also observe how much he's actually taking in of the hay & water, make sure he's not just rolling it in his mouth or something.

With any luck you will see improvement soon, but be prepared he may not get better.
HF


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Cant add to the already given good advice. Just wanted to say I hope gr makes it.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I was hoping there would be an update saying he is the same or better.

HF


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Just checking in today to see how your buck is, any updates are appreciated.

Can you get him up over a bale of straw? Just thought it would get him in a different posistion for awhile & almost like a standing posistion.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Well-Buck is still here. He is eating just fine. Put some alphalfa cubes in water and feed. He ate it all. Feed him that twice today. Gave all shots as you guys specified, Red Cell, yogurt and Probios. Temp 102.1. Berries plentiful and still look just fine. Spent most of afternoon with him and trying to get into a sling. We got him in a sling and raised but his head was just too weak to stay up. Was trying to get him high enough to have leg room to stand. Maybe too high? When he is sitting on his legs, he is able to hold his head up just fine and uses it correctly to move to get at hay, and water and today his pan of alphalfa. But when we put him in the sling and started to raise it his head just flopped over and hung. We were afraid he would choke so we lowered him back down. We used straps under his belly over a blanket. We then put him back at the side of the hut. He does try to get up but cannot. His eyelids are still a very pale tink of pink. Just a tat of pink color at this point still. Rumen seems to be working good. Eating very well and looks around and no stargazing. He showed alot of interest in the people who came to help me put him in a sling. When I gave him his shots he definately did not like it. He turned his head and tried to pull at my hand and the syringe. Chewed on my shirt and gave me a hug. All four bucks are bottled feed pocket babies.

Could he possibly have hurt his spine in some way from another goat butting him? He has been the herd King so to speak but there is a wether with him that tends to get bossy at times. One of the other goats is pretty docile and pays them no attention and the real young one is ok with all. The wether will sometimes pick on the young one but he just sidesteps and comes back around from the other direction. This has got me puzzled. No vets in offices for the holiday since Friday so will have to call on Tuesday if no imporvement. No vets in county will see a goat so will have to take him out of county to one.

What does the urniary problems look like? He is urinating ok. Just in case it might be this, where can I get this ? medicine from?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

FW, a spinal injury or a tumor pressing on the spinal cord is a most unwelcome possibility. . Just keep up the good work! Is he grinding his teeth at all? If not, he is most likely not in the pain he would be with UC.

When you fool with his legs does he pull back or push them against you? I would add some passive excercise in there to keep him from losing his muscle tone, some flexes and such.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Yes it could be a spinal injury, it would mimic MW as that effects the spine, too. Have you put slight pressure all along his spine to see if he reacts (as in pain)

Try running your fingers along his back on both sides up towards his neck/spine. Do you feel something like a tunnel under the skin? This doesn't always happen but if you find a tunnel under the skin you would know for sure it's MW as that would have been it's path.

I'm pretty much out of suggestions. Since the sling thing didn't work do as Beccachow suggested and just move him for excercize. Also, just an FYI- sometimes if animals are down for extended periods of time, they don't think they can get up because they haven't been able to for so long. Probably not so with your buck but wanted to throw it out there.

I don't have to tell you he should be improving by now, I think you know.

Okay, if he were mine I think I'd try just a few more things
-up his redcell to 10cc's. -Bose him (selenium injection script, or maybe people pills would work) and of course stay with everything else you are doing.

I don't really think either of these will help, but it is hard to just not do anything and give up. 

Other than that all you can do is wait to see if there is improvement in a few more days. It doesn't look good for him, I"m thinking we should be seeing something by now.

HF


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

If it was UC from the onset he would be dead by now.

UC is a blockage, he wouldn't be piddling, his stomach would get all bloated like, he'd be crying in pain, then he would die when his insides rupture. It is very painful.

Ammonium Chloride is used for prevention-it is a powder you can get from Jeffers Livestock online. Sometimes it's used as a last ditch effort to save them but from what I"ve read isn't often.

Here's a link:
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/urinarycalculi/
HF


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Im wondering if thiamine injections would help? 
If it is a spinal injury he will survive he just wont have full use of his legs.
Had a buck last yr who had just that. Chiro helped but at $80 a visit that wasnt going to cut it. He did manage to breed one doe but after that he would collapse in the rear, unable to do his job.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I think he's either on Thiamine or BComplex, not sure which. 

Maybe up it? Can't hurt, expecially if you want to exhaust ALL avenues because he's a good buck.
HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Buck is still here! He is a fighter for sure. Felt along spine from tail to head and no sign of a tunnel or lumps or spine out of place. I gave him some more alfalfa cubes soaked in water and he started eating them right away. No signs of pain or distress. Does not even seem to be gritting his teeth. Still follows me around and talking to me and nuzzling me when close to him. Drinking water just fine. 

If I give a BoSe shot again-(I gave one at 2nd day at 1.5CC as I did not know how much but felt I should cover all bases so to speak) then how much should I give and how often?

He makes an effort to stand-will "lurch" his body forward to stand but just cannot get up on his legs. He does "feel" the shots going in him and he does not like it real well. The first 2-3 days it was as if he was too ill to care about them. Last night when I gave the shots he tried to grab my hand and the syringe. So he can turn his head around to shoulder well and he can feel the shot pain. Legs are just usless it seems. If I extend the legs he does not pull them back. If folded under him he does not flex them out. If I rub his body and scratch it he can feel it and he either looks back at me or his skin twitches and ripples in feeling it.

I read a post about the foxes and the coyotes causing what? I can't find the post on this thread but maybe read it on another thread.

I have had foxes on the property just over the last several months.They got some chickens and then started on the geese. And the geese were in a pen at night! I saw a fox coming up and over the goat area fencing with a banty chicken in his mouth that had taken a liking to staying in with the goats. When the third goose was taken I was really mad. So I called in an "exterminator". At 2:30 in the morning I heard alot of ruffling noises-no yells or yipes or anything-grabbed the gun and in pj's went and checked the traps. Could not see well so drove the garden tractor to the area-left lights on-and shot the culprit behind the ear. Then got another one the next night and he was shot. So far no more. Both were males so hopefully the population growth will slow down a little. 

Going to try and come up with something that I can lay buck across but that will not elevate him to high but will allow him some ability to be up higher than the ground and see if he uses his legs any and will see if he can still control his head as opposed to just flopping over as it did in the sling. I think a hay bale at this point might be too high.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have never read of foxes or coyotes causing something, I have only read that deer can cause brain worm. Meningial worm I think and I am sure I spelled that wrong. I am glad we have no deer around here! Not sure of it shows up in a fecal or not. 

I would think with a heavy worm load you would have seen bottle jaw but with him being in the condition he is maybe not, since it tends to happen later in the day from keeping their head down eating/grazing most of the day. 

Can you take a fecal into a vet? It is not very expensive and then you would know if he is wormy and what wormer to use for it. 

If you run out of Red Cell you can use Geritol liquid in place of it. Goats actually like it and the one I gave it to actually looked forward to it, I would give her 12 ccs twice a day. Smelled awful to me!


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

We put our Louie up over a small dog kennel with blankets on it so his feet here touching the ground butall the weight wasn't on them. Also when my mom had kids go down she would four times a day lay them on a large pan can (like the really really big ones) so they could move their legs around. It took her kids about 2 weeks to be able to get up on their hind legs and then she would brace them. I would think their personally their legs fall asleep.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

It doesn't sound Like Urinary calculi at all. Like HappyFarmer said if that was his problem he'd already be gone.

Beccachow had a good idea about flexing his legs kinda like goat therapy to keep his muscles working.

Are you just giving him the Ivermectin daily & how much? Have you also given him the Quest wormer at all?

I 2nd taking a fecal to a vet for them to test for worms & what kind. At least then maybe you'll have some kinda of idea hopefully of what's going on.
If he had an injury from another herd mate it seems like he'd be grinding his teeth alot in pain. Wish I could help, but I'll keep my fingers crossed for the both of you.
So hard when you are doing everything you can think of & still not much improvement but don't give up yet!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I wouldn't bother with taking a fecal on the buck - it would be a waste of money as he's been de-wormed multiple times over the past 5 days.

Take a fecal on his pasturemates. Even so it won't tell a lot if you wormed them within the past 21 days, other than the type of worm if you can find any eggs. It won't give you any indication of the infestation levels unless over the 21 day lifecycle.

Just my thoughts
HF


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

I would try to get him up in a sling or prop him over a hay bale. He needs to get the strength back in his hind end - his legs are probably numb from laying on them, and now weak from lack of use. I had a buck down for a solid month because of frostbite on his feet. It took a bit of "physical therapy" to get him walking again, the entire process took about 8 weeks. Rigged up a sling like a cow sling so he could just barely put weight on his feet. Today he is a big strong guy doing his job.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I don't understand the comment about foxes & coyotes. 

If MW, thinking it is, he may well not get better. I'd still give a little more time though to be certain.

HF


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I think hes worried the buck will be attacked by a fox or coyotes since hes down.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Just so you know. Most shots can be given SQ so there's no need to cause the pain of an IM.

Good luck with him.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I would be concerned of the coyotes. Foxes not so much.

I didn't realize he had the Bose. I wouldn't give it again. Don't panic if you did, just don't give anymore. 

How is he today? What's his name?


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I took a half barrell of a small 35 gallon size that I had previously cut in half to use as food and water troughs for my animals and I turned it over and pulled the buck up over it as best I could. He did not care for it but then I could see that he actually could move his front legs and feet. I moved his front legs out in front of him to get them to flex and he would move them around and back towards him in an effort to get off of the barrell. His knees are not swollen at all. I could not get him all the way over the barrell as he kept slipping off backwards. But I did not see any effort from the backend legs to work to control him or to fight getting him over the barrell or away from it. If I move his back legs around there is a little effort to move them but not like the front legs. If I tried to pull him halfway over the barrell his head then would go "floppy" and it was as if he would try to pull it back into a center line position facing foreward but with some effort. Last night at his shots he grabbed ahold of the probios tube and kept tugging on it and playing with it and taking it into his mouth to chew on. 

He is still eating good and drinking well, following me around with his eyes and his head. His eye rim on the bottom lid is starting to turn a little more pink but rest of inner lid is still showing such a pale pale pink tint. I have been giving the shots as a sbq. as opposed to IM as he has very little muscle to use. 

I will try this morning to get him back up over the barrell and see what we will see as far has his efforts. The buck's name is Warrior and he is a registered Alpine. I hate to lose him as he has been such a sweetheart and good breeder. I do have his son who looks just like him and has the same gentle disposition as dad. I purchased him from someone off of the board two years ago. All other vital signs seem to be good. I will lay him on his side again and work his legs and look for responses that seem to be his own efforts. Berries still look good and he is still urinating. I am very worried that his eyes should have been more pink than what is showing now. 

Would an Iron shot or shots hurt or help in addition to the Red Cell? And what doage and how often would be advisable? I have Durvet Iron-100 on hand. 

Thanks again everyone for all of the help and assistance. I am by myself doing all I can for him. DH left in March and I have been running "the farm" without him. One of his issues is that he does not want to be a "farmer" anymore. So I am taking care of all of the livestock and issues by myself.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

farmerjohn said:


> DH left in March and I have been running "the farm" without him. One of his issues is that he does not want to be a "farmer" anymore. So I am taking care of all of the livestock and issues by myself.


(((hugs))) And you are doing a great job! I have been following this but cannot offer any help for lack of experience. But I do offer a boatload of support and prayers for a good outcome.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Edited my post.

I hope all works out for you. 

Keep up the good work.

HF


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

farmerjohn said:


> Thanks again everyone for all of the help and assistance. I am by myself doing all I can for him. DH left in March and I have been running "the farm" without him. One of his issues is that he does not want to be a "farmer" anymore. So I am taking care of all of the livestock and issues by myself.


Bless your heart! It sounds like you are doing all you can do for him. I hope he pulls through for you. As far as his eye color it takes time. Have you looked at an eye chart? Heres a link maybe you can point out which one he is close to. http://goat-link.com/content/view/110/107/


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

If he is really anemic it may be several weeks before he begins to get better. The fact that his digestive system is still working is great!
How are your other goats?
Who is doing your fecals?


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I wonder if frozen spinach might help rebuild his iron level and hemoglobin.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Bless your heart farmerjohn! Your doing a great job, don't give up yet! I don't have any advice to offer either at this point just want to send my best wishes for you & Warrior! Keep us updated please, I bet he's going to surprise all of us. If it's anemia due to heavy worm loads it may take a little effort & work on both your parts to get him strongenough to stand again on his own since his legs are probly weak, may have some loss of feeling from laying on them so much, Poor guy. I feel bad for both of you & wish were closer just to lend an ear if nothing else.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

fishhead said:


> I wonder if frozen spinach might help rebuild his iron level and hemoglobin.[/QUOTe
> 
> Good idea fishead, or what about fresh spinach? It would be like a special browse for him.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

It's 7 days since 1st meds, correct? Have you seen any improvement?

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I rolled him around this afternoon and exercised his legs. He does have movement in his back legs and really did not like my messing with them. But they seem to be able to move. Not real sure if it might be an involuntary reflex or voluntary reflex. Still doing great with hay and alfalfa cubes in water and a little cracked corn tonight-1 cup worth-and 1 cup of sweet feed. He eagerly ate it. 

Checked the eye chart and his eyes are the white picture with just s tat of very very pale pink but not even close to the palest pink on the chart. No sign or indication of pain or discomfort. 

When I went to him this evening to give his shots and meds he had moved around on his own. It did not look like he had gotten up any but more like his butt stayed in approx. the same place and he had just moved the rest of him self a full 1/4 turn. I am not sure how he did it but he sure looked proud of himself. So maybe if he can do that on his own there may be hope yet. 

I have 8 girls left-3 bucks and a wether. Sold some earlier in this mess here and so wish I had not but was really trying to look ahead of what the possiblities might end up being.Some were the spring babies and my start of a nigie herd. I have only the alpines and the nubians left but they are great girls and I still have three of the spring babies.I have had individuals getting milk-for their animals of course-and wanting me to make them cheese. I have helped neighbors with goat issues in the past and have helped them deliver 2 sets of sheep twins and this has me stumped.

I also have 22 Guinea hogs with three sows pregnant. I was working with 2-3 restaurants to supply with meat on a monthly basis and not sure where that will go now. "Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise"-as the saying goes. Lord says to "stay put" and so am trying. Looking for any farm grants out there to "buy the farm" or at least his half. 

When he was put in a sling the other day and his head just "flopped" down and to the side-could that be more from weakness or? Is it a good idea to leave him like that or would he strangle because he could not keep his head up on his own? Tie his head up or not? Will put him back up over the half barrell again tomorrow for awhile and maybe with his front end over a barrell I can try and get his back end up a little. There is a big maple tree over the area and maybe I can use a block and tackle approach. 

I have only a son whose ideas are that I should not have nor do anything-period. I am suppose to be happy with knitting or sewing as a past time. DH has suddenly over the last year or so felt that self-sufficiency living style is archaic(sp) and is pretty stupid to have a garden, orchard and animals. Not meant to complain but it is what it is I guess. So I am trying to stay put.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Well, you have your hands full. Keep up the good work. Downsize if you have to, but always improve things to make it easier on yourself, then you can expand again! 
Oh, and carry your cell phone with you at ALL times. 

No, the sling is a bad idea if he can't hold his head up. There would be no purpose in tying his head, either. 

If he's a good buck, I'd consider collecting him (as in AI). Personally I think he has irreparable damage, but I havn't seen him nor am the one that has to make a decision as to his fate. 

Hoping for the best,
p.s. don't hurt yourself trying to move him alone- get help.
HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

The buck is still here and he is such a sweet fellow. Seems very happy even in the perdicament he is in. This A.M. he was again turned a 1/4 of a turn around and back end pretty much in the same place. Went out later and he had turned himself around another 1/4 of a turn so he had done a 180 since last night. So-I massaged and stretched all of his legs again and I re-checked all over him for any sores or lumps or tumor type growths. There was nothing other than he is thin. I got under his back belly area and straddled him and lifted up the back end. His back legs were moving and were trying to get a footing. He held up his back end just a wee bit on his own before he gave up. I then lifted up the front end and his front legs again tried to stand and he could not so then I put him on his knees again and lifted in the middle and he was like-"ok-I have had enough already". I then moved him for the day into a new place-had to drag him and he seemed just as happy as ever. Gave him new hay and feed and alfalfa soaked cubes and he went after it quickly. Temp at 102 and rumen working and chewing a cud.Berries still look good. Eyes still about the same. One side seems a little tat pinker than the other. I am holding out hope that he will come out of this. Hate to put any animal down unless I absolutly have to but certainly do not want any animal to suffer. 

I was reading an article on the "Goat-Link" site about cocci in adult goats. Could it be that? Would the meds I have been giving him help that any at all if it were? Or just the Sulmet or the DiMethox Drinking Water? 

Does the berries have to be fresh ones/ I FINALLY got through to the vet for a fecal test. I can get berries that were from him when he first went down. Would any worms be dead by now? How long do they actually continue to live in the berries? So if ANY of these worms are in one group of goats-as in all of the bucks-and the girls are quiet aways from the bucks-would the girls have the same? Was thinking about whether to get some of each group tested or all. Was thinking about animals and birds transporting the worms-berries-around the property. Does it take a hard cold frost or a freeze to kill of any worm load in the ground? Or is there a safe spray that could be used on the ground?


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

With having such a small herd you should do a fecal on each one. Who did your fecals before? Goats always have cocci in their systems, its the overload that does damage. 
You actually don't see the actual parasite in the fecal... you see the eggs. Worms are species-specific... a bird cannot transmit a worm to your goat. 
If he was really anemic, it can take weeks for him to get better. You are doing great at support-therepy!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Based on your posts I'm going to say it's not cocci. Your environment is incorrect, and his symptoms don't match, plus it is fairly rare in adults unless crowded/limited/damp conditions exist. No, Cocci is not a worm, and de-worming meds will not take care of it. We use Di-Methox straight up-we do not water it down like many do. Nor do we put it in drinking water - we want to know that the patient is getting the proper dose to do the job. We load a syringe (no needle) with the dose and give it to them orally. They do not like the taste. Some use koolaide to hide the taste.

A fecal will tell you his cocci load. If you have a microscope it is easy to do, just need a 10x lense and fresh poop.

Yes the berries must be fresh. Theeggs start hatching quickly. You can delay a bit with refridgeration but I don't recall how long - couple hours maybe?

I wouldn't not send fecals out to the vet for all goats. I would get a sampling from each "group" pastured together. These worms are not the same as the MW, I just wanted you to know.

In all probability your goat groups have the same types worms - not spread by birds but simply by moving them from pen to pen, manure removal, breeding quarters, things like that.

Yes a good hard freeze will kill the worms on pasture. We worm for the last time each year right after the 1st hard freeze.

I know of no spray for the pasture to kill worms. If there was you would have to apply it every 21 days during the warm season, more or less.

HF


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

p.s.

One more thought about your herd, MW prevention consists of monthly de-worming with Ivermec. You might want to get the herd on a schedule until the frosts come, then start up again come spring. 

It's kinda a catch 22-we're supposed to not worm too much but if we don't another type of worm will git em. A dog in the pasture would keep deer away.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

So glad he's still hanging in there & seems to be comfortable & body still functioning properly other than being weak & not getting up on his own.

I was wondering has he only been wormed with Ivomectin since he's been down or have you also given him the Quest too? Just curious because the Ivermectin doesn't take care of all the kinds of worms & doing a fecal on him now after being wormed wouldn't show a whole lot I don't think. Was just curious & just hoping something else might help him out too.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

He was given the Quest also. I am keeping on the Ivermec for at least the full 10 days.

Got to thinking this P.M.-could be dangerous  but what about giving a goat Cod LIver OilL Liquid? It has a Vit A&D supplement to it. Could definately be given orally.

Not bad enough that DH has been gone since March but tonight the neighbor and I had a "peeping tom." Way out in the country no less. Police all over and I am outside with my 9MM. I have had some guy on the property three different times between 2-3 in the morning,. Not sleeping well and am up every 20 minutes to an hour and have seen his truck parked alongside the road and he comes up into the yard area and just stands around looking towards the animals and the barn. When he heard me open the door the second and third time he was here-with the rifle-he ran to his truck and left. No clue who it is. So--I am getting very very serious about a good guard dog.


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## rootsandwings (Apr 20, 2004)

I don't think cod liver oil is a good idea for a ruminant.

It's going to take a long time for his iron levels to go back up unless you can get injectable iron, but increased motion sounds good! hang in there.

the creeper sounds scarey. I don't think I'd open the door unless I intended to shoot.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

farmerjohn said:


> He was given the Quest also. I am keeping on the Ivermec for at least the full 10 days.
> 
> Got to thinking this P.M.-could be dangerous  but what about giving a goat Cod LIver OilL Liquid? It has a Vit A&D supplement to it. Could definately be given orally.
> 
> Not bad enough that DH has been gone since March but tonight the neighbor and I had a "peeping tom." Way out in the country no less. Police all over and I am outside with my 9MM. I have had some guy on the property three different times between 2-3 in the morning,. Not sleeping well and am up every 20 minutes to an hour and have seen his truck parked alongside the road and he comes up into the yard area and just stands around looking towards the animals and the barn. When he heard me open the door the second and third time he was here-with the rifle-he ran to his truck and left. No clue who it is. So--I am getting very very serious about a good guard dog.



Yep, time for a big dog. One that won't hurt all your critters & will protect you too! Maybe even 1 that's big & looks intimidating might scare the perve off! That's creepy! I'd be calling the police every time I even seen his vehichle & try & get the liscense plate number too!

Keep up the good work with Warrior, sounds like it's just going to take him some time. I do think your goat therapy will help him if you can do it with out hurting yourself.


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## ccfromnc (Jul 23, 2011)

Wish I had some advice to offer but am new to goats... I hope Warrior improves. Your care for him is an inspiration for me to strive to be as good a caretaker as you are.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I have a bottle of Iron. If I give injections of it-how much and how often" It is Iron-100.
Continue the use of free-access minerals? I withdrew the minerals last week. Would Sunflower seeds be ok to give now or wait on them? 

Warrior has turned himself around a full 180 again this morning.

I was thinking of a large black Dobbie that is trained  One that would blend in with the night and come out of nowhere! Seriously though would like to have a large dog that would protect everything. Maybe a Rott?

Thanks everyone for your help and encouragement. It is very much appreciated.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I would use the iron injectable and leave out the redcell at this point, redcell has several things you can od on. I have successfully used 3ccs every three days to build one back up I would also supplement with vitamin c as it helps absorption of Iron in the body. Gotta be careful giving him high calcium but dark green stuff isnt a bad idea.

Move his legs for him if he cant, I have used a horse stall door net to build slings for goats for myself and other folks and its worked out well. With an animal down this long you also have to be concerned about pneumonia. 
I was hoping to find that all was well with him sorry that you are still having to go through this.


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

If you have not treated him for cocci do so! It is the number one killer of adult goats as it shows different symptoms. Bucks can be hit hard with cocci.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Still praying for him here. Momma used to raise Dobermans as a kid so I have a soft spot for them. They are a great breed. At least you have a gun and you are not scared to use them.


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## hyamiranda (Apr 26, 2010)

I would recommend a Weimaraner for protection and companionship. They completely blend into the surroundings as soon as the sun starts going down and they are intimidating enough. I've been reading and following this post and hope all goes well for you.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Worms are the #1 killer of adult goats as far as I know. 
This may be true of young kids, but not adults. 

Coccidiosis is not worms. It is Protozoa. It needs moisture & warmth to reproduce. Take out one of those 2 and cocci is not a problem. They are present, just not multiplying at levels that exceed a goats natural resistance which causes sickness. Coccidiosis is considered a man-made disease because we confine animals which gives the oocysts an environment to reproduce to dangerous levels. 

Here is an article on Cocci:

http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/coccidiosis.htm


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't own a goat and no nothing about them. But could he be low in potassium? Potassium loss can cause muscle weakness, I would think if it was low enough he might not be able to use his back legs. Just throwing a thought out there.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Ok-I can start the Iron shots at 3cc's and stop the Red Cell. I have Vit C tablets-will that work if I crush them up and put on some feed? How many pills do I give a day? Thanks for that idea. I have read this board alot and such great help and ideas but when it is one of your own all knowledge goes right out the brain.

The potassium-what kind-where from and how much and how often? Just checked in with vet on the fecals-will have to wait even longer for them to get back to me.

Checked with farm supply stores and no Sulmet liquid. They had pills but did not know if that was the same or not and label stated for cows and hogs I believe.

I love this one vet-his boys were in my 4-H club. Both boys were going to college to become vets. The one boy was the Irish Mascot for Norte Dame. He was killed during spring break with three other classmates coming back from Florida. Was a headon where a guy crossed the median and hit them. So very sad. It has been extremely tough on all family and the community. So dad has scaled back his vet pratice and wll not do just the simple procedures that I would need with castration and dehorning anymore. THe vet in the next county would cost me over 100.00 for the dehorning and the castration plus all of the meds they say they would use so close to 150.00 total. More than I could sell a wether for. Never would do anything else for my goats or my hogs but because we are friends he was doing the feal for me. But they also have emergencies so I would not really expect any phone call until later of the day or so. 

Going to go and excercise Warrior again and move him around a little. Thinking of using the half barrell to just sit with him awhile and maybe read a book to him that I want to get finished. Could not hurt. The encouragement from you guys have been great. Throw and all ideas and suggestions at me as I certainly am thankful for them and will try anything. 

Would like to shave him down but am concerned with the evening weather as it is now chilly and foggy and damp. What do you think? He has the long hair on his spine and back end. Also was hoping day would be very warm and was thinking of using some soap and water to give him a wet rag "foo foo" bath.


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

farmerjohn said:


> The potassium-what kind-where from and how much and how often?


Like I said I don't own goats. I was hoping one of the people on here that does own goats would be able to say yes that could be it, or no goats don't get potassium like that. I'm hoping your goat starts getting better though.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

That's a good thought Eyore, but I do think it's narrowed down to Men. Worm or stomach worms.

My thoughts are MW.
HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Finally got the fecal results but of course after having treated. No sign of any worms-came back negative as well as the rest of the bucks.

I did give 3cc's of the iron tonight along with the other shots. Within an hour Warrior was breathing heavy and was dopy acting. Could there have been a reaction with the other shots? I moved him into their enclosed area-finally just grabbed him by the back legs and dragged him in on new hay and straw. Got him settled and stayed with him for awhile and observed. Just seemed so much more lathargic than normal. After an hour he perked up. Then on an every hour check. Raining now. Washed his blanket and took it out and put over him right from dryer and warm. He was back to old self. 

I am thinking of splitting the shots up through the day and to give a little break in all meds entering his system all at one time. I was very concerned that after all of the shots and the way he was acting that he had taken a turn for the worse. Maybe the iron shot caused a hard reaction.

Is the Sulmet pills the same as the liquid?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

FarmerJohn, 

Did the fecal show he's carrying a load of cocci? 
If it did not then don't do the Sulmet! 
Your de-worming did not kill the coccidia-only a sulfa med will do that. 
I don't know how to make it any more clearer his issue is not Coccidiosis. 

If he had a reaction to the Iron shot then that is a good indication he is at his peak level - it should not have been an allergic reaction because iron is pretty basic. His body needs to process the supplemented iron - it will only process it so fast & bring him back from anemia. It takes a long time and overdosing won't help, as is apparently the case.

Warrior needs you to stay focused. It is possible to make matters worse by throwing any old med at him. 

Treat him by his symptoms & links provided and in conjunction with the test results you paid for. It's a 3-way check for you.

Of course this is my opinion I'm sure others have theirs and I hope they correct me if I'm not focused.

HF


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

No bath and no shave :nono:!! I would be afraid that would stress him out even more, and since he can't move around he is likely to catch a chill. 

Hang in there, Warrior! And FJ, you need to take care of YOU, too, ok?


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

My dear, it sounds like you're doing everything that you possibly can right now. I would just keep him warm and dry, and keep doing what you can for him. He may just need time now to get himself back togeather. Your great support that you're giving him will give him his chance to make it. Don't wear yourself out in the process.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I then will not do the bath and shave.

Do I still give the iron shots though? 3cc's everyday? OR switch back to the Red Cell?

Fecals came back negative on all bucks. I did not think that it would show anything anyway as to all of the meds in Warrior as well as the Ivermec and Quest in the other bucks. But it is a good starting point for the future.

I don't think it is Cocci either but wanted to try and cover all bases I guess. 

Thanks eveyone for the support of Warrior and for me. I am very thankful that every time I check on him that he is still here. 

Do I stop all of the meds tomorrow as that is the 10th day? Or do I continue all until he is on his feet? He gets Ivermec @5cc's, B Complex @ 8cc's, [email protected] 5cc's, The Iron shot yesterday for the first time @ 3cc's, No Red Cell doasage yesterday due to the iron shot but was @ 5cc's, Banimine @ 1.25cc's, ProBios, Yogurt, Alfalfa soaked in water, hay and straw and greens.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Unless I was sure he had cocci I would NOT give him sulmet. The last thing he needs is to have his rumen messed up with sulmet. As long as his berries are fine he probably doesn't have cocci. Keeping the rumen functioning is critical to his survival.

Good Luck!


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Why are you still giving Ivermec? It is only a 1 dose, wait 10 days, then another dose. The B is ok to continue with. If he doesn't have a fever, then you may want to stop the antibiotic. Banamine should only be used for 5 days, after that you run the risk of ulcers.
I think what you have is a goat who was very anemic caused by whatever worm you had. According to the fecal, your worm is gone. The anemia takes weeks to get over. Let him rest. Sometimes you can cause problems by giving meds. You are doing great supportive care with the probiotics


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Mpete she is treating for Men. Worm. Your dosage is to break the cycle for stomach worms. Big difference.

I would stick with RedCell, being you reported a reaction from the shot.

No Sulmet.

The Banamine should have been stopped on day 3.

Stop the Ivermec. I wouldn't have given the Quest because Ivm still works here - left that to owners in other parts of the country. I would stop it if you are using it.

Stop the LA200.

Until his is on his feet:

B-complex and Red Cell I feel is a must for support & recouperation from Anemia. 

Probios & Yogurt do the same thing. Neither will hurt but will ensure the right bacteria remain in the gut. Probios is better & probably cheaper.

Alphalfa for retaining his weight, water, hay. Spinach, green non-toxic leaves, grass is a good idea for greenery. I would rely on Red-cell for the iron purpose (because I'm cheap & wouldn't buy spinach for a goat).

Your next preparation should be to ensure you have meds on hand for pneumonia. When a goat is down it often presents itself. 

I still don't feel as though your buck will recouperate. Stranger things have happened though. He apparently is not suffering so no harm done I suppose. 
Kudos to you, FarmerJohn, for keeping at it. I understand your desperation to save him, your frustration at no improvement, and your fear of letting go. I keep hoping I'm wrong for Warriors sake. 

HF







farmerjohn said:


> I then will not do the bath and shave.
> 
> Do I still give the iron shots though? 3cc's everyday? OR switch back to the Red Cell?
> 
> ...


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

And what meds do I want for the pneumonia? What dosage and how often? No sign of it yet but I am not sure that I would have the meds in my medicine chest at this time. I try to keep a well stocked medicine chest for the goats. Never know when I might need something or a friend calls and needs help or meds or even if the store would be out when I need something.

So tonight he will get Red Cell, B Complex and Probios. Alfalfa, hay and greens and plenty of water.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Aww, I am so rooting for you guys!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

If you havn't given the RedCell I think I would skip a day. His reaction to the iron shot kinda bothers me. I don' know. Think I'd continue R.Cell tomorrow at 3-4 cc, half what he's on now. Are his eyes pinking up any?

Keep him moving like you have been. Excercize him like you've mentioned. If you think he's feeling stronger in the neck area try the sling again- actually that is a real good way to judge if he's improved.

Pneumonia can be tricky. When fever hits If I caught it early I might try Pen @5cc/100#'s 1x a day for 7 days first. Banamine (script) 1cc/100#'s no more than 2 X a day no more than 3 days. IF something was needed after that I would do baby aspirin & Dexamethazone (script) as a substitute. 

Some use the LA200 instead of the Pen, because resistance is up in the Pen & it may not be as effective when needed.

If it was undeniably pneumonia with all the full blown symptoms I'd start him right on Nuflor (script) 1xday for 6days @3cc/100#'s. Banamine same as above. This is really what I prefer for pneumonia. It's pricey but good stuff.

People decongestant if needed, 7cc maybe every 6-12 hours, depends on the patient.

Electrolytes if dehydration starts. A stomach tube for if he goes off feed or dehydrates.
And I already mentioned Dexamethazone & baby aspirin should it be needed beyond Banamine useage (not likely).

What I'd do and how I'd treat would depend on the symptoms I see before my eyes at the time. 
HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Warrior is still very alert, eating and drinking well, good rumen acticity and chewing a cud and being just a super sweet heart. He does try to get up but is weaker in the back end than in the front. Follows me well with his head and his eyes. Front and back laegs are excercised and I sort of straddle him and move him around so he is not in one place long. I roll him over on his side and scratch his belly when I excercise the legs, then sit him back up and over on the other side. Tomorrow I will try the half barrell.

One eye lid is turning pinker than the other but is an improvement. I feel so bad for him and that I let this happen to him. He has such a furry back line and long hair there that I just did not see any noticable weight loss on him. And with all of the other issues going on just was not paying that close of attention. I try so hard that all of the animals have the best of care, feed and medicines and most of my mind was just elsewhere. But he still loves me and still gives me hugs and kisses and talks to me. So forgiving.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

How is the rest of your herd-bucks & does? I'm assuming all is well since nothing was mentioned but just thought I'd check. You've probably already done this but maybe a hands-on inspection is in order.

Forgot to mention to have a thermometer in your goat kit. Don't forget the batteries or have a spare on hand. 

HF


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Still pulling for Warrior & you Farmerjohn! Hang in there!

I agree with the medications that HappyFarmer suggested. That's what I'd give right now too. Just the Red Cell, Probios paste daily right now & give him a few days to see if there's any improvement in eye lid color, etc.

Keep moving him around a few times a day & goat physical therapy on his legs like you've been doing.

Your both real troopers & I bet Warrior really looks forward to you being with him. He'd probly like you to set awhile with him a finish your book. Might do you both good!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

The rest of the herd has been all physically checked. No lumps or bumps-no knee swelling-no unusually skin or hair problems. Eyes all look good and pink. Good appetites on them and rumen activity and cud chewing. No gritting of teeth from anyone. Temps all ok. I do need to trim a scur horn on one doe and need to do the shoes on all. 

I have a regular animal thermometer in the goat kit. a drenching tube and really most anything that everyone here on the board has suggested that was needed for goat care.

Warrior enjoys my company as do all the goats. They provide such a peaceful serenity and have such a "grace" about them that is unmatched in most other animals. They certainly have a way of calming the soul. 

I do not think I will breed this fall though. I do not breed particularly for the 4-H babies but more for herd increasing and for milk production. I have 3 Nubian girls and 5 Alpine girls. No Niggies anymore-a Nubian buck, 2 Alpine bucks and an Alpine wether. I just got an approval on a state program to reimburse me for fencing off the rest of the acreage and would like to do that with rotational areas. So we will see. 

What treats does eveyone give their goats? I have noticed that when I had the Niggies they went crazy over animal crackers. The Nubians and the Alpines just turn their nose u at them.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Mine all love the animal crackers, dinner roles from the resturaunt I work at, I bring them home when folks don't eat them. They also love grapes, a cut up apple or pear too.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Raisins...my guys would even get wet for raisins.


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## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, otter pops in summer, raisins, bananas w/ the peel (good to hide meds in), vitamin c chewables, corn chips, marshmallows. Basically anything in your hand including cotton balls, gloves, or instructions for your new weed whacker. Its all a yummy snack in a goats mind.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

So glad hes still hanging in there for you. I know how hard it is to see this but he has great care and someone who truly loves him. 

Ours love love love santitas chips, fruit loops (everyone loves them the off brand the best), raisins (not everyone likes them though) bread with a couple of them. and only one likes peanut butter.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

andabigmac said:


> Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, otter pops in summer, raisins, bananas w/ the peel (good to hide meds in), vitamin c chewables, corn chips, marshmallows. Basically anything in your hand including cotton balls, gloves, or instructions for your new weed whacker. Its all a yummy snack in a goats mind.


:goodjob: LOL! You forgot...shoelaces and sweatshirts.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm so sorry he's sick! Praying for him and you here. I hope he is better soon. Our vet says pen. for the pnemonia @ 3-5cc per 100 #'s.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Went to give Warrior his meds for this evening and he was trying to get up! He was getting his back legs up under him and pushing to get up but is not quiet making it. He was able to raise his back end about 4"-6" off the ground and then he would go back down and try again. He was shoving himself forward at the same time trying to get the front legs up and out to push with but just can't quiet make it. I sat with him awhile and exercised his legs. Then I think most of his energy was spent. But he was making a real effort to stand. I gave him the Red Cell (4cc's) and the Probios for tonight. Both eye lids are now a pale pale pink color. Also gave him his hay, fresh water, goat feed and fresh greens. Tomorrow I will put him up over the half barrell again and see how he does. Still is very hungry and has great appetite and drinks alot of water and eager to interact with me.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Yeah Warrior! You know he wouldn't still be alive without all of your care. He is lucky to have you.


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## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh My Gosh! That is so great! I've been watching all of the developments anxiously. Goats are amazing. I hope he makes a full recovery.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

farmerjohn said:


> Went to give Warrior his meds for this evening and he was trying to get up! He was getting his back legs up under him and pushing to get up but is not quiet making it. He was able to raise his back end about 4"-6" off the ground and then he would go back down and try again. He was shoving himself forward at the same time trying to get the front legs up and out to push with but just can't quiet make it. I sat with him awhile and exercised his legs. Then I think most of his energy was spent. But he was making a real effort to stand. I gave him the Red Cell (4cc's) and the Probios for tonight. Both eye lids are now a pale pale pink color. Also gave him his hay, fresh water, goat feed and fresh greens. Tomorrow I will put him up over the half barrell again and see how he does. Still is very hungry and has great appetite and drinks alot of water and eager to interact with me.


Oh that brought tears to my eyes. I hope he keeps getting better.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Great job farmerjohn! Keep doing what your doing! It looks like things are going to turn out good for Warrior, bless your heart & thank goodness he's doing some better. It may still take awhile to get him back to normal but it sounds like he may be on his way!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Later today I would put something yummy just out of his reach to see if he has just a little bit more motivation!! If he pushes himself to it, all the better excercise!

Come on, little fellow!


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Woohoo! Go Warrior! Go Farmerjohn! 

:goodjob:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Wonderful progress!!!


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

Oh, good for him!!!!!!! Sometimes if they can get their back end up, you can sort of lift on the front and they can stand.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Poor Warrior. If he could just get the front and the back coordinated together I think he just might do it. Put feed out in front of hiim and his water-had to move it further out-he sure has a long neck. He got his front legs-with help under him-and pushed up-but no go on the back end. I helped on the back end and got his back end up but one leg worked but the other did not. So I just rolled him and flexed his legs and tried again. Front legs pushing up but back end just sat there. I think he may have forgotten how to coordinate everything. If I let go of holding him up under his front legs he just slowly sinks down. I will have help tomorrow and we are going to try the sling again. His head seems to be staying in a stright line and is not flopping off to the side as far or as fast. It was like looking at a wet dishrag trying to be straight last week. 

Eyes are still pink but look to me as if they have darkened just a little. At least the entire bottom lid is now an even pink color in both eyes. I will be happy with an even pale pink in both eyes at this point. Everything else is good-apetite, drinking water, chewing cud, temp. and alfalfa cubes in water he will crawl for. Gave everyone fresh greens tonight so all are in goat spoiled heaven. Will entice him tomorrow with the raisins I got.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

This is encouraging news.

What's the status of his past feedings? What I'm looking for is if he has had grain in the past and/or if he has had ammonium chloride routinely. 

Since he has no rumen issues, I'd try giving him something for energy - like cracked corn. SMALL amounts though. He's not moving a lot so keep it under a handful a day-maybe split in 2 feedings. If he's had ammonia chloride and/or no grain for most of his life he won't be prone to UC issues for the next few weeks while you try to get him on his feet. If he's had no prevention for UC I'd be hesitant at this time to give corn, but rather seek other energy sources. It's important that he is eating roughage if you do this-roughage meaning long-stemmed hay or long-stemmed grasses they will help with digestion as it should. Stay away from any sweetfeed. And don't use various sources - stick to one. you don't need to induce rumen issues. Keep up the probios.

I'd try it and see if it helps him over the hump, but I'd also discontinue it after a few days to a week if it doesn't help or he's not eating his hay or he is still down after that. 

HF
ps I wouldn't make him work too hard for his treats or food right now.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Come on, Warrior...we need some goat good news around here!!


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Right on warrior keep up the good work sweetie.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Warrior is working at it! Got his back end up with my help and his legs were trying to get coordinated to push. On his own he got his back legs under him and pushed up-feet still kind of going in a "tapping pattern" until they got in cinc(sp) and then he pushed up a bit and then relaxed. We did this together several times. Right leg seems a little weaker yet. Then I went to the front end and lifted him up behind his front legs and the front legs tried to push up and were not quiet in cinc(sp) but got two good pushes where he raised his front on his own. His head seems alot stronger too. He can get his back legs under him enough to sort of raise himself and "scoot" over. I was watching him today and that must be how he can turn a full 180 around. Gave him a handful of corn, his alfalfa soaked cubes, hay and water. Held off on the Red Cell and Probios for tonight. Will do every other day. All other signs good, eyes still showing even pale pink coloring and a great apetite. My help to get him in a sling today cannot make it so will try tomorrow. 

I have always fed hay, grasses and goat pellet feed and occassionally cracked corn. Alfalfa cubes and sunflower seeds daily. I have never given the ammonia chloride though. I was thinking that was only if you gave grains for every feeding. I can get this at a feed store? Is this different than minerals? Do I want to start in with any free choice mineral or forgo the minerals for awhile? Get some ammonia chloride and start giving now? And if so how much and how often?

Why not sweet feed? I know that somewhere on the forum it was stated that there is little nutritional benifit to it. Was I correct in that or is there another issue with it?

Thanks everyone for your knowledge and care and concern. Warrior and I both appreciate it. But he had better hurry up and use those feet as even in his current condition he is still heavy and in being somewhat disabled myself, he puts a strain on my back and hip. Will have to give us both asprin!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Farmerjohn,

My only concern is inducing acidiosis or UC now when he is at his weakest. I have fed sweet feed for over 5 years in the past, and have been feeding cracked corn for several years now. No issues whatsoever. We switched to bulk because we grew so big and it was expensive plus we had too many feedstore trips. Now we mix our own & offer minerals by various methods. Others swear the molasses will cause acidiosis but in a healthy goat it's not likely unless overfed.

Anywho, my concern is that he's not moving much, so it isn't helping his digestion, plus you wouldn't want him to get any more excess gas that he may not be able to expel, or develop UC (because it may have been building up all this time if you fed grain). I would just be very careful what you add to his diet at this time, yet I feel he may need the extra energy, he been weak for about 2 weeks now. You want to build him back up without causing any issues.

It doesn't sound like he's a candidate for UC - if he were mine I would start the corn without reservation. I would not start the AM Chl, no red flags are going up for me, and again we don't want to upset the apple cart if we don't have to. AM Chl can be bought at Jeffers Livestock I believe-it's cheap insurance if you feed a lot of grain to wethers & bucks, I think it's like a tsp a day or close to it. We fed it at one time but no longer, but that is just us.

I'd offer him loose minerals. Don't skip the probios for all the same reasons stated above. 

I'm just thinking this through here....and I think I'd take it slow.

HF


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

My feed store gets the ammonium chloride for me in a 50 pound bag. It will last forever that way but ordering it from Jeffers or Hoeggers it only comes in a small container & they charge shipping on it because it's heavy. I keep it in a steel drum with a lid & it stays dry that way.

Grain is anything just about other than hay. Corn, sweet feed, oats, sunflower seeds, etc. are all considered grain.
I do add a little ammonium chloride to my bucks loose mineral & also baking soda.
The girls just get baking soda added to the loose mineral & they all have access to it 24/7.

It sounds like Warrior is trying so hard. I think he's on the mend for sure it sounds like! Keep up the good work farmerjohn!!

Go Warrior!! Give him a big hug & kss for me too!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Sounds like "our" goat (lol) is trying so hard. We WILL demand pictures, you know. The worst part is, you will prbably never really know what happened. SO frustrating!


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

It is not the grain by itself, or the hay by itself that causes UC. A goat can have stones that are phosphorus (grain) base or calcium(hay) based. A member of our packgoat club, who has always paid attention to the 2:1 calcium/phosphorus ration still lost her best packgoat to UC. The stones were Calcium Carbonate. They would not dissolve even in a cup with high dose AC water. In the following weeks, we found out that his grandsire and several half brothers had also been lost to UC. It can be hereditary as well and environmental. Our vet tried everything to save him, as we had caught his symptoms early.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

YEA WARRIOR! I was just with him. He saw me coming and he got his hind feet up under him and pushed up-trying to get the front legs out and under him to get up. His back end came up about a third of the way then he went back down-looked at me like it was my fault and then did it 3 more times and then gave up for awhile. 

I gave him his Probios and some Red Cell then I went in to him and lifted up the front and his legs came out almost all the way then he pulled them back under him-went up on his knees and pushed up his back end and was up on his knees with the back end up about a third of the way on his own!! I put him down and lifted up in the back under his belly. He got his legs under him and I could feel him pushing with his feet and legs and his hips and he got the back end up and put his body weight on his back legs and stayed at a half crouch for a few seconds-maybe 5-before going back down. Supported his own back end!! We did that a few more times and then I let him rest and eat. I gave him just a bit of corn and his water soaked alfalfa cubes, fresh water, green grass, some leaves and some baled corn stalks. 

This is so encouraging to me. He is certainly trying. I went and got several leads ropes and tied out the rest of the bucks and three does to green pasture grass while I feed and watered the Guinea Hogs and did a few other chores. Unfortunately it is getting ready to rain and I will have to get the goats into their own areas with their housing so they can be out of the rain. I will then go "assist" him again and keep that back end a working. I sure hope he can get up and walk well. At that point then I will breath a sigh of relief to ahve gotten him back on his feet. I thank God many times a day for him and the other animals. I will certainly take a pic and try and post. Not real good with a camera but I so have fun with it.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I am so happy for you and Warrior. He surely lives up to that name. I hope he keeps getting stonger. You are doing a great job!!!! Can't wait to see some photos of the guy.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

After I got all goats back where they belonged I went to check on Warrior. He looked out at me-on his knees and back legs with his butt up about a third of they way! He was just "standing" like that in his hut looking out at me as if to say-"what are you doing here?" He was just eating away at eerything I had given him earlier but it was so encouraging to go check him and see that he was even up like that on his own. It is rainy and getting cold but he will have the other bucks to keep him warm tonight. Yes he has been a real Warrior through all of this. He is doing me proud!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

The term "house goat" comes to mind. He will have earned it!


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

Oh, hooray for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Such good news! I'm sending more good vibes~~~~~~~


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

WEll--Warrior can get up on his knees by himself and with his butt ALLLMOST at full height! He has tried many times to get those knees up and on his feet but still just very shaky, weak and wobbly-but he is doing it on his own!! He wants to get up on his own all of the way but he starts wobbeling and goes down. I bet he will be up all of the way in a few more days to a week. At least he is trying now on his own without my help. After he had tried to get up several times to show me-as I think he is trying it even when I am not with him-I got under his back end and lifted and the back legs gathered under him to push up the back end and he can get it up almost all of the way but still just too weak on his own to hold it there for very long. 

When he sees me heading his way or hears me-as I think the other bucks are telling him I am headed that way-I can hear him calling out and hear him "working to get up" before I can even see him. It is like he wants to get up and "come" to greet me. 

It is suppose to be rainy for the next few days and then some sun so I will take some pics of him and get posted. Maybe pics of all of them. Thank you guys for all of your help to me and Warrior as well as to and for every one else on the board that you guys are so generous to take your time and knowledge and love to share. It means so much to so many of us.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

farmerjohn said:


> Thank you guys for all of your help to me and Warrior as well as to and for every one else on the board that you guys are so generous to take your time and knowledge and love to share. It means so much to so many of us.


Thats what makes this place so great. I am so happy he is getting better.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Hurrah! Do you think he could walk with a sling on and you helping to support his weight? It might be a way for him to build more strength. Either way, he is doing great!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

He is doing really really well, Warrior is a great name for him.

He's moving around now some so I'd up his corn a bit - 1/2 cup/day. You want to keep his intake at least at what he's expelling in his struggling to get up. We all know that takes a lot of energy.

Red-cell daily until you see a good pink.

Keep up the probios.

If he can manage the sling it would be a good idea to keep him in it while you are around the barn, remove him from it when you leave. He could excercize & rest when he gets tired. They sell manual lifts for like $70.00 at Harbor Freight.

If he makes a full recovery it probably wasn't MW, but instead just BPole worm. We had no way to verify at the time treatment started, but we'll find out soon enough.

I'm really glad he's improving so well.

HF


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Keep fighting warrior!! And mom is a warrior too!! So happy he is improving:dance::dance::dance:


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I am so happy for you both!


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

This is so encouraging, keep up the good work both of you!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Well????


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Well-Warrior is still up on his hind legs but on his knees still in the front. Appetite is still great and eyes are still the same very lite pink. I am givinghim the Probios and Redcell every day. 

I have been excercising the front legs out and back and forth 2-3 times a day and trying to get him up on the front end. He tries to get the front up but just cannot seem to get a leg under him in the right position and maybe not strong enough yet to push up with it. But he sure tries. Right now he moves around on his knees and wth the back end up and seems to have more endurance to stay like that than before. I put the other bucks out on pasture and I am going to put him over the half barrell and see how he does with it. Head and neck also seem alot stronger. But he is very thin now and seems to have lost some more weight. Such a trooper though.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm so happy to read how well Warrior is doing! Your doing a great job with him farmerjohn, keep doing what your doing & he's going to make it I think! Great news, Love to hear how well he's trying & fighting. He is just probly really weak from being down so long & like some folks said it could take quite awhile for him to get over the anemia if that's the problem. Hopefully there is no more worm problem of any kind.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Yay!!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I put Warrior over the half barrell yesterday evening. He did not slide off as in the past but stayed put pretty well and he could control his head pretty good. There was just one time it went off over to the left side and he was able to bring it back to the center line on his own. I am not sure that it did not happpen more from my being so close to his head and body on the right side and him trying a bit to move away from me. 

He keeps wanting to curl his hooves and feet up under him on the barrell. I stretched, rubbed and excercised his legs out and in and out and in and out and in. He was tired--I was tired. The left leg seems to be a little stiffer than the right. He joints also creak and crack. Is that normal? When I got him off of the barrell and then fed him, he went right up on the hind legs and "walked" on his knees to his feed pan and ate. 

Has anyone every applied a "rubbing compound on a goats legs and joints? Would it burn them you think? Or is there maybe something else that is used for joints that I am not aware of?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Occasionally a kid will be all scrunched up in the womb and can't straighten their front legs. With some stretching & using it's body weight to keep the legs straight often they straighten out within a week or two.

It sounds like Warriors tendons are retracting from non-use. I'm kinda surprised because it's only been 2 weeks but sure sounds like that's what's happening. Stretching is good, steady, hold the hoof/hock area & gently press down on his knee several times a day & hold it there at full extention. It would be better if his own weight could be applied it would extend his muscles more often. It can be painful. Two of my sons had ACL surgery & the therapist made sure they reached 95% of their extension, plain old use recovered the last 5%. Very very painful when you lose it to regain it back but it is necessary. I know not quite the same but similar..

Glucosomine or Gen Gay might help, however it won't stop the retraction. Only extending will do that. You wan't to gain back what he lost and not lose any more.

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I have been gently flexing his legs and will gently pull the front ones out from under him, slowly pulling them all the way forewad and then bak. When I do this I am also rubbing his legs and very gently pushing down on the knee and the even flexing the hoof/hock area also. I have been doing this every day several times as I thought that this might happen and might be a possibility. 

BUT-----today he tried to put that left foot under him and push up. He had the hoof flat and maybe his knee at about a 90 degree and I could see the leg shaking a little as he tried to push up. The right leg was still bent all the way at the knee and it looked like he was trying to get up enough to pull the right leg forward and to put the hoof on the ground. He just could not quiet make it though. He would drop back down and then in a little while he would try again. 

At least he knows that those hooves need to go flat on the ground and will need to push up. He got his meds today-the Red Cell and Probios but did not like it. He sure can clamp his mouth shut tight. Not the response that was going on 2 weeks ago.Then he just let me manage his mouth with the meds with no fight last week. His eyes though are not any darker pink than they have been and that concerns me a little. 

I checked his body all over today for any lumps and bumps and there are none other than he is thin. I was also worried about absceses from all of those shots and there does not seem to be any at all at this point. 

I will do the half barrell again tomorrow and stretching excercises again. His backend is still able to get up and it is almost all of the way up but it is ahrd to judge as the front end is not folowing yet. But it is certainly progress. 

His coat looks a mess though. At his shoulders it is yellow from the B Complex shots. I squeezed the syringe once before I got it in and then I think that I thought I had the needle in and it just went all over his coat. So now I have a yellow patched goat and coat. A goat of many colors? But he has been through alot and has done sooooo well. So at this point his coat is rather attractive to me.


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## wearegoats (Oct 16, 2011)

farmerjohn said:


> I have been gently flexing his legs and will gently pull the front ones out from under him, slowly pulling them all the way forewad and then bak. When I do this I am also rubbing his legs and very gently pushing down on the knee and the even flexing the hoof/hock area also. I have been doing this every day several times as I thought that this might happen and might be a possibility.
> 
> BUT-----today he tried to put that left foot under him and push up. He had the hoof flat and maybe his knee at about a 90 degree and I could see the leg shaking a little as he tried to push up. The right leg was still bent all the way at the knee and it looked like he was trying to get up enough to pull the right leg forward and to put the hoof on the ground. He just could not quiet make it though. He would drop back down and then in a little while he would try again.
> 
> ...


Reading your posts on this has brought back so many memories of a few of my goats doing this. You are doing such a wonderful job on your boy it brings tears to my eyes to think of the love you have for him. I had my boys in my kitchen when they went down to stay warm and not get bullied by other goats. It's strange mine were all boys and so is yours. Your last entry discribes just how mine came around to a tea. From my learning your boy will be up and around in about 5 days. I had put a splint on the weak front leg and that helped him get better balance.(small piece of pvc pipe cut in half and put on the back of leg by knee and wraped tight with ace bandage to hold knee straight). I did this for half an hour every few hours. Most of my boys recovered at the same time or within a day or two of each other. Great to hear he might have won the battle.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Reading this is great drama and I stop in every day to see the progress. We are all rooting for this guy. I'm just worried about his weight - with all he is eating I hope he starts gaining.
When I've had pale gums on goats, I have found blackstrap molasses helps.
You have made a herculean effort and are to be be highly commended for your determination.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Still praying for your guy and you!! Come on Warrior!!


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

Keep up the good work!! Both you and he are fighters.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Ok-Just got in from Church and HAD to read the posts. So much knowledge and encouragement here. 

I have lots of blackstrap molasses that I can give him. If I gave 5 cc's of it a day would that be sufficient? In addition to the Red Cell?

How about Karo Syrup? Or Maple Syrup? I have some of those too. I do have lots of the clear Karo. Guess I was going to use it for candy at one point? I also found a bottle of Dark Karo that looks mouldy on the top. Can that be scraped off and used safely? This is not the thread I know to post that question but am curious as it is almost a full jar. Maybe put the molasses over his corn,feed and alfalfa? Even put some of the loose minerals in his dish and the molasses over it all?

Going to go excercise Warrior and put all of the other bucks out to pasture for awhile in the sunshine. The other bucks want to see what is going on and they can be a pest at times. Warrior's son is the exception and pretty good manners and understands "no" real good. The wether is the exception. He can be such a pest. I wish he was not a wether as he is the Chamoise color-tan-black white? I have a three does of the same coloring that would be great to breed with him. But maybe next year will look better and I can find a nice buck of that coloring. Warrior is the black and white Alpine-registered-and I have his daughter(twin to the little buck) and had hoped that I could get some does to breed to Warrior in that coloring. Warrior bred last year and is such a gentleman at it. Time will tell if I can keep the farm even. The Lord has been good.

As a "side bar" to things. And maybe some venting a little. I have had my mom's car up for sale off and on for awhile and luckily it sold yesterday-end of feed and end of hay. An answer to my prayers. So this sale will help greatly. A man had responded to the ad awhile back and ended up wanting me to go to dinner with him. ( I was feeling sooo low and sooo old and sooo unwanted that I was mildly surprised by the invitation which I respectfully declined). Well-he called me yesterday and asked me again to go out with him. Which I again respectfully declined as I am still legally married-even though I have been served with divorce papers I am still married until that issue is settled. But it did make me feel that at least I was still attractive to someone at my age.)will be 61 in a few months) 

I still feel that I can make a go of it here as I firmly believe in the self-sufficient lifestyle even though the DH has stated that he does not want to live this way-too old-fashioned for him-and too labor intensive for an unmotivated person to deal with. It is such a shame as I know what can be done and what can be saved in the economics of a household and a family. Anyway-any ideas, support and encouragement along those lines is greatly appreciated by all and re-direct me to an appropriate forum for those ideas and encouragement. And of course any and all prayers are welcome-for all of us-the animals here, myself and even for DH that he gets his head on straight after 31 yrs. of marriage. I try to keep many of you as I read the posts that have problems with their animals and their farm life in my thoughts and prayers daily. Sorry if I have offended anyone for posting this here.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I'd maybe do the molasses but not the others.

He's still losing weight? Wonder why that is. 

Add some fat to his diet. Is he getting the sunflower seeds you spoke of earlier? If not start them up or maybe a T of veggie oil over his feed. 
I'd consider getting some Am Chloride & give it daily if the grains are increased.

Farming is hard work, even harder if you are doing it yourself.

HF


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Well I was able to get Warrior up in a sling contraption by myself today. He was trying all he could to get those front legs a working but just still weak in the front end. His head was in a straight line and was not floppy at all. While he was in the sling I exercised his legs and helped him to get them under him or at least to put some weight on them. He sure tried to stand but those front legs cannot hold him well yet. But his back end stayed up the whole time! Both of us were exhausted when done. I had exercised his legs before he went into a sling and I let him down out of the sling when he started grinding his teeth. I felt that he had had enough exercise and was getting stressed over it. Tomorrow we will repeat it. 

He had "crawled" out of his area and hut into the sunshine all on his own and that is where I found him after church this A.M. He acted so happy and proud of that. Just totally content and chewing hay. 

Is it normal that the toes spread apart when the leg is fully extended in front of him? I will give him some oil tomorrow. Thanks for that idea.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Typically the toes should not seperate like that when standing normal. 

However, sometimes they will when they are gripping or different points are on the ground. How is his trim? If the inside is trimmed longer than the outside, they will tend to spread. This is a trick they use in showing to bring the toes together for a good stance if the hoof is less than perfect.

One more thought, it's great he's crawling around to the sunshine, but make sure he can't crawl out in bad/cold/damp weather while you are not there. He could chill easily and maybe not get back inside by himself. 
HF


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Just checking in to see how you & Warrior are doing today? Hope alls well & he's feeling a bit better & getting stronger!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Yesterday Warrior was trying to get those front feet under him. He got the left leg up ok at a 90 degree and when he tried to bring the right leg up and under him it would drag and just not quiet make it and he would then go down on his knees. He did get up on the left leg and brought the right leg up but it scissored across the front of the left leg and he went back down to his knees. He is just not strong enough yet in the front end. Still excercising his front legs and stretching them several times a day. It is when I flex his front leg out in front of him as he is lying on the ground that the front toes will seperate. When I bring the leg back to under him the toes are back together. When he starts gritting his teeth then I stop for awhile. He gets up on knees and stands on the back legs pretty good now and can stand like that for awhile. When I lift him up in the front-while the back end is up- and try and get those front legs under him he can get them in position with my help but only puts effort into one leg at a time and not both together and not for very long. But he is trying hard to do so and then I think he gets tired and then goes limp in the front end. 

His eyelids are still a very very pale pink and his appetite is great. Everything else is looking good. He really likes the molassas alot.


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

MAn. IF he's the warrior, you're the warrior princess! Haven't anything to add but encouragement. Like many, I check into this thread every day for an update if I can! C'mon warriors!


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Does anyone else think this is starting to sound more like a neurological problem, rather than a strength or muscle contraction problem? Could point back to possible deerworm again. If so, he may just have to relearn how to walk, like someone relearns things after a stroke or brain injury. You sure are doing a great job with him farmerjohn!


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

FarmerJohn I'm sure this has been ask but is there away you could possibly post a picture of warrior?


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Nancy in Ga, I too am leaning toward deerworm. It would explain why Warrior went down suddenly and why he has continued to otherwise eat fine and act bright. It could also explain the weight loss and why I'm concerned he isn't making headway there. I had two experiences w/men. worm and both improved quite quickly because of immediate intervention including the steriod dexamethasone. I've seen it really take a toll in llamas. Some cases of deerworm can take weeks and weeks of therapy to eventually improve, while others go the other way. I am so rooting for Warrior to be a success story.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

If it's deerworm he won't gain back the use of his leg/neck area. Therapy isn't going to fix damaged nerves.

If he recovers completely it was worms - he should be further along IMO if this was the case.

He may need a little more time.

HF


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

Go Warrior!!!!!!!! Go FJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Keep up the good work, both of you!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Warrior is still mostly using the hind legs and on the front knees. He is trying to get his front feet under him and yesterday tried to take a few steps on the front. He can manage up on one leg and then stumbles and goes down. Then he tries again and stumbles. He cannot seem to get the front legs working together to get up on them. But he sure tries. I worked yesterday with him in getting the front legs under him and he can put pressure on either one and tries to push up but not both together at the same time and not for long.

I will work more intensively today with him. I am afraid as many have said that maybe it is MW or maybe a neurological damage problem. He seems a "happy camper" the way he is though. Eyelids are staying a pale pink and all other signs are normal. His body mass was shrinking but seems to have stabilized and looks as if there is some improvement in all over condition. I know his belly is full and fat. His back legs are getting very strong now.

When I work the front legs-in and out and in and out-push gently down on the knee area it creaks and cracks a little but we get any stiffness out pretty quickly. He does not mind this at all to an extent. Then he gets up on the hind legs and I bring the front feet-one at a time-up under him. He will then try and stand on a front leg or to put weight on it and he can for just a few seconds then he goes limp in the leg. Then I get the front end back up and do the other leg and he tries to put weight on it and push up or to put weight on it and he can also do the other leg for a few seconds and then that leg goes limp and he tends to pull it more under him. Then I get his hind end down and flex the front legs in and out and then we go at it again. Back end standing-help with front end legs and allowing his body to rest on those legs and then to see how long he can hold his own. And then repeat the process. 

It seems that as we get the front legs into position to stand on them that he is more on the toes of his hooves as opposed to more of a flat footed appearance. I am over him helping him so it is somewhat hard to see a clear picture of what is taking place. Yesterday in this position of being over him and over his body at the shoulder area he pushed up on the front feet and I could feel the front shoulder muscles working to push up. There was alot of strength pushing at the middle and the hips. 

He was just looking at me as if to say-"enough allready". He talks softly to me all of the time and lays his head up against me as if he is hugging me. His head control seems to be normal and fully working well. The skin on one of his knees was cracked open a little yesterday. I guess from the wear as he will go all over on the knees. I put a little ointment on them yesterday just in case. He sees me and soooo tries to stand on his own and to come towards me to greet me and get a rub or a treat. He can get the one side up-looking at the front of him as I approach him-his left leg if you were looking from the back-and can do just a few stumbling crouched front leg steps and then goes down to his knees. 

Since the bucks and the wether were all together-would not the other bucks also show signs of MW if that was what it was? They are all fine and are fat and happy guys. Great eye color and coats. Going to try the PVC type knee splint today and see what happens with that.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Warrior sounds like a great buck & your doing a wonderful job with him! Keep up the good work. I'm so rooting for the both of You!!


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

I know that both of you are tired at this point, but just know that there are a LOT of people out here that are behind you all the way. I wish that I was close so that I could come over and help you out some!


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Rethinking this again from your latest description... Usually the DW affects the back end rather than the front, but I suppose anything is possible with brain lesions. But the fact that he tries to go up on the toes instead of flatfooted in the front---goes back to sounding like an extension problem. And like it might be painful for him to extend the front legs with pressure. 

It would be really good if you could rig up some kind of sling. That would stretch his front legs and allow downward pressure at the same time. I know that is sometimes impossible, though. We had one go down with a broken leg joint once and wish we had a sling. So I worked on making a sling for the next case and have never had the opportunity to use it.

Sure rooting for you and Warrior here. I check in first thing every morning to find out how he's doing.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Aww Guys,
You bring tears to my eyes. I so hope he will get better. I have a pic when he looked good and was on all four feet on his own. Computer connect cable is over at grandkids house. They got the wrong one while visiting.

I was thinking of taking one of the half barrels and cutting off the ends and shortening it to fit the length under his belly from front to back. Then maybe cutting slots in it to feed the straps through the slots and using it as an under belly support instead of trying the blanket under him with the straps over that. With just the straps under him they tend to slide around and I am afraid of injuring him in the penis or testicles, shoulders and hips. I had also though of maybe an old horse saddle if I could find one. The half barrel is a 30 gallon style so it is not so big to begin with. I can picture what it should look like so now if I can just do it. 

Going out in a bit and work with him and see if I cannot get him in a sling again. I think he is gaining some weight as he seems heavier but it may be that I am getting weaker.  He has such patience with me moving him around and etc. 

Would childrens aspirin work in place of Banimine? Vet I have gotten it from in the past soes not want to carry it anymore and another et won't issue it as they want the animal taken to them and stalled there for who knows how long at a cost of 80.00 per day. Ouch! So we will just keep keeping on.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

If you have any horse friends they should be able to get you a bottle of Banamine. I can't imagine a vet not having banamine...that's just crazy. You could ask them for a script and buy it online. If you do get your hands on some...be careful, I think it can only be used 3 days in a row or something like that. 
(((hugs for you and Warrior!))))


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Praying for you both! We thought our doeling was goner but now she seems to be pulling through! She was down on the front end but is starting to walk again now!!


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

My other thought is it possible Warrior could have suffered a stroke?


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

He's making good progress. It's likely that his front leg muscles have atrophied from his being down so long. He toes are separating because he's down on his hocks - which again sounds like atrophy. He'll regain his mobility slowly, he will likely benefit from your helping him to stand, massaging the leg that won't straighten out, especially the knee. A bit of ben gay or absorbine rubbed onto his legs will help the circulation. I would not expect him to be up and running around normally yet, he sounds as if he's progressing about as well as expected after being down for weeks. It will take time.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Warrior and I both have spent the afternoon together going through excercises and also in fitting this barrell saddle to him. Whew! I need the Ben Gay!

When I flex his legs out in front of him it is stiff at the knee and does not go all the way down. As I gently push on the knee and rub the leg-extending it all the way out and then retracting it back under him it takes just about 3-5 times of that then his leg will go out straight with no raise at the knee and very little pushing down to finish extending it. Although th ejoints do creak and crack as we excercise.

He is still trying to stand and evidently that left leg is the strongest or at least the one he prefers as he seems to always try to go up on it first. 

I got the saddle made out of the half barrell. I cut it out and made slots the width of the straps and have the straps in it. As I look at it I am thinking I may need to put some slots in the bottom part for the straps to also thread through so that they do not slide around. I think I could also have made two of them from a half barrell. But it sure looks like it is going to work better than a blanket under him and then straps. The straps slid around even on the blanket and ended up having to be pulled from under the front shoulders and caught up under the high hip area. I took pics of the whole process and hope they are going to be good. I had said granddaughter took the computer cable-she got the cable to download from the camera to the computer. 

I am going to put him in the sling and then put the PVC on his knees and wrap with the wrapping tape. Maybe in the sling and with the PVC on his knees he will be more willing to put more weight on those front legs. 

The vet that used to sell me the Banimine will no longer sell it to me. They keep telling me that they no longer are doing anything with goats, cattle or horses. Go figure. I will try a horse vet. Now for my Ben Gay!


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

just an off the wall question, has he been tested for CAE? I know that you were fighting the M worm, and that can do damage, but I just wanted to ask


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Awww, hang in there guys. ((hugs))

This especially speaks to me since I lost one of my first goats to something similar, only after two months she still couldn't even lift her back end and I had to make the hard decision to let her go. She had stargazing, though; the vet thought it was some type of lesion. If I had thought she had a shot after all that time, I would have kept at it. So this is PERSONAL to me!! I am so thrilled Warrior is making improvement, after your initial post I had my heart in my mouth thinking of you guys. Keep up the good work!!!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I decided early evening to put Warrior in the sling I made out of the half barrell. It was much easier on both of us to use it. I do need to cut it down some more though. A goat is not that wide between legs as I thought it would be. I raised the sling up enough that his front feet would be touching the ground but would still give him body support and he would be able to push up if he wanted with the legs. 

I worked with him and excercised his legs while in the sling and gave him the opportunity to stand on his own. He could work the legs as in one at a time trying to push up or in "tapping" the ground in trying to get his feet under him. He could do a half way push and stop. I can feel the muscles in the leg and the tendons straining. I made sure I flexed the legs and knees while in this position also. Warrior did not care for it too much. I think there was a little more strain on his legs while in this position. I think that is good as it is a different position to deal with and different muscles are used more than others.

Warrior will still try and get up on his front legs when he see me coming as well as when he sees his food dish but just gets the front legs mixed up and he stumbles and goes down on the knees.

I have not done CAE but have wanted to. Again-5 vets in the county and none will do a goat. The county over that has a vet that would wants the goats again brought there and left overnight to do so which includes the overnight stall fee. So--12 goats times 80.00 forthe stall fee plus the test coats.

I had someone that told me they would show me but they never carried through on it. I recently just found someone that said they would show me how.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Awesome!
Not too many people can hang out as long as you have!

Doing the blood draw is actually simple, Especially if you have someone show you. I have thought about shaving the neck of a goat (to show pictures better) just to see if they would show up. I have one doe that her vein pops out quite nicely. But bucks (especially those in rutt) are thicker necked and can be a little more difficult to find.
I think the vet you found is nuts! I can test for CAE/CL/Johnes for under $25. $80 is CRAZY!!!! Can you take a goat to a 'local' vet for the blood draw? I know that vets in my area will do that part...
How is Warrior doing at holding his weight?


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

NO VET here in this county will do ANYTHING with goats or hogs-PERIOD! And when you go out driving around this county there are goats and sheep all over. Maybe not as many as the horse people but the horse vets will not touch a goat or a sheep either.

The vet in the next county over-the 80.00 is just for a stall for one day/per day rate. That does not include any needed meds, tests or medical care above and beyond that stall fee. Just for the feed, observation, bedding, water and space. 

There is a short video somewhere or pics of actually how blood draws are done. They showed, I believe, a very young girl doing it. I also have the address somewhere for buying the tubes and the access for sending in the blood if I can locate it. I would of course like to see it done and to be able to do some while being observed and feedback. I can give the hogs and the goats shots and meds just fine. So I would think I could at least learn to do a blood draw properly. There was no one to teach me how to do the regular shots though for the goats and hogs. I learned that on my own from I guess watching the Dr. do the dogs and cats and myself. Ha! But-any pics, help and instruction is always great for a refresher or for newbies .

While Warrior is very thin and looks scraggly as he has the long hair on his back center line and a long goatee,he seems to feel and look as if the weight has stabilized. He eats well so his belly gets big and fat and he is happy. I am feeding him twice a day so by the next feeding or so his belly size is down a little of course.

Eye color is a little better but to me still a very pale pink. I check the eye color every time I am with him just in case there is a big improvement from the chart link that was posted here. 

The does are in a front pasture. The guys have been in a very large penned area at the feed lot. Their pen is approx. 48'x80'. I have seen deer in the very bottom area but not close to the house-except for the orchard. The orchard is on the other side of the property and someone or something got all of the second year pears a few weeks ago. I was going to feed them to the animals and they were there the one day and ALL gone the next. No hoof prints. Would a deer get into a pen with an animal as in goats or the hogs? To get at their food or hay? Do the goats have to eat the deer feces to get MW or just the grass as in the worm crawling around on the grass?


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## rootsandwings (Apr 20, 2004)

I think they get the worm from the grass. I can't imagine a goat actually eating feces - one of mine will separate out wheat kernels from her feed.

Do you know any nurses or EMTs? I had one offer to teach me to draw blood.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

That is a good idea about a nurse. My Pastors wife is a nurse. I will talk to her about helping me. I never thought of that. See-many heads are better than one for sure!


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

The egg is expelled from the animal. The egg hatches, and the little bugger crawls to the top of a grass/leaf blade & waits to be ingested. In areas of moist ground, transfer is easier than if ground were dry.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

And then the first hard frost kills any larvae? Is that true in all of the worms that goats carry?

Warrior is really trying hard to get up. He will bring a front leg out from under him and put it in position to stand on it-take a few tentative "taps" at the ground with it then I guess he decides it will not quiet work to get him up, so he brings the leg back under him and then tries the other leg, doing the same thing. But the back end is still trying to move forward at the same time. So he is doing this kind of a "dance" across the floor of the barn. I laughed at him today as I watched him and he did not like that too well. He then tried to push himself up and get his front legs under him at the same time and he just went down with face on the floor. Then he righted himself and went back to "dancing" with the front legs until I stopped him. I gave him his meds and exercised his legs. Exercised several times today but no sling. I even got him outside to enjoy the sun and some fresh fallen leaves and grasses. We just enjoyed the sunshine together. Tomorrow the sling again. I need more Ben Gay as I sort of have to lift up up in the front end while I work the front legs out and flexing them into a standing position. I then go back to flexing his legs with him laying all of the way down. I cannot use a knee myself so everything I do is done by standing over him or in front of him. I then roll him to his side and flex that leg and roll him over to flex the other. Aerobics for a goat! Who would have thought.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

With deerworm you don't need the deer to actually be in contact with or even close by to a goat. Slugs carry the parasite and you'd be surprised the distance they can travel. Then the goat ingests a leaf or something with the slug on it and can become infected.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

So glad Warrior is still improving & your hanging in there too farmerjohn! It sounds like he's still fighting so that's real good sign.

With Meningeal worm do you just give the proper ivermectin for so many days & then not at all after that? Just keep up with the other meds? I'm just asking so I can keep all the info in a notebook in case I may need it later too. I hope not but would rather have it anyways. My luck, I'd panic & won't remember where my notebook is!!

Still checking on you both daily, so thanks for all the updates.
Can't wait to see all those great pictures!!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

For some reason when I first came across this website and was "glued" to the computer screen for days at a time reading "everything" I could.

Alice in TX. posted this link early on in this thread. Hope it helps.

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=20361.0


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Alice in TX always has the best links & if you need infor about something she always can always find it if she doesn't know the answer. She's like my link Queen only I don't think I ever told her that.

Thanks for the link though, I have it saved & hopefully I'll never need to use the info!

Hope You & Warrior are still both hanging in there & doing better each day!


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

moonspinner said:


> With deerworm you don't need the deer to actually be in contact with or even close by to a goat. Slugs carry the parasite and you'd be surprised the distance they can travel. Then the goat ingests a leaf or something with the slug on it and can become infected.


This is exactly what my vet told me as well. Doesn't even have to be the actual slug, just the slug...goo.

So glad Warrior continues to hold his own!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Warrior is slightly improved. He will rest on a knee and is holding the other leg up on the hoof. He is trying to "test" it but just not strong enough yet. He does his little dance with his feet and is starting to get them under him a little further than he was on just the knees but then he goes down and tries again. So he is improving but it is slow. Thankfully we are still having some nice weather.
I have been ill for a few days so have not posted his progress. His eye lids do look a little darker pink. So I can see some improvement but like most said it will be slow.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Go WARRIOR! And GO YOU! Please take care of yourself, ok?


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you doing all this alone? I hope that someone there is taking care of you while you're taking care of him, and everyone else. Good job, and hang in there!!!!!!!!


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I am doing this all alone. No one to help me. DH moved out of house at first of year due to many things-including "computer things" and Domestic Violence and (girlfriend/s?). All go hand in hand once that path is taken I guess. So I man the show here by myself. Not bad but is trying at times-can be feast or famine for both the animals and me. God has been good and cannot complain. No support at all financially for animals nor I from DH and I do not ask well for assistance of any kind. 

Warrior is improving a little day by day. He now does two other things in addition to still being on his knees to "get around". When he sees me coming he will get up either on the front hoof with one leg and try to push up-he will try to pull the other leg up and will get on the "toe" part and will take 2-3 steps that way before going back to his knees. The leg he uses to try and push up is only going as far as about a right angle or 90 degrees bend. But is a start! Or he will get up on the front hooves and take a few stumbling steps before going back to his knees. If he thinks I have food he will definitely make the effort to get closer to me to see what I have. I try and entice him to "get back up" at least part way with his food. It seems though that once he is down after first initially trying that he is just going to lay there and wait me out. 

I feel like BeccaChows little saying below her name-Confused But Trying.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

heehee, story of my life, lol.

I am so glad he is making baby steps towards getting up on his own. I honestly think you are out of the woods now and he just needs to "fine tune" over the next week or so. After all this, you will be keeping him in the house, right?


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Keep doing what your doing farmerjohn! Your doing a great job with Warrior & he's a fighter! Hang in there. They say God doesn't give us anything we can't handle & I do believe that's true!


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## RedSonja (May 16, 2010)

Haven't had much time for computer lately, just read through all five pages of this. So glad to hear he is still fighting to live and improving. And you are an amazing person to be doing this for him, especially all on your own. Good job all 'round!

-Sonja


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I forgot to mention that Warriors pink eye color is now somewhere between the "Dangerous" and the "Borderline" coloring on the chart from the link that Alice in TX posted.
And I think that it is due to adding the molasses that was suggested. It may be just me but at eye check yesterday the improvement was very noticeable and very fast. It also may be that the other meds in the past and the body's recoup period have caught up to themselves or even the continued use of the Red Cell. But up until I started the molasses, the eye color was like a very very weak pink or more a white with the slightest of a pink to it. 

Actually, I had to even stare at it to find any pink and in the right lighting. And one eye coloring was not the same as the other. One eye had more of a darker pink eye lid rim and the other had none. But the eye with no pink at all on eye rim showed the very faintest of pink coloring and the eye lid rimmed in pink had the rest of the lid all white. Now they are more equal in coloring and improving I think quickly. All other signs are stable. I do not take the temp now every hour or so like at first but I am still taking it every few days. And Warrior is not happy with that at all. I do feel that giving him the molasses has improved him greatly. I started giving it to him the same day someone said to. I was not sure what the results would be but I think it has certainly done something positive for him. And maybe that is what makes him get up so readily and "try" walking to get to me and the food dish as he is looking for that molasses. Certainly gives him some hope to keep going I think. But it will also be something that he will get used to and will want all of the time. Guess I will have to see about growing and processing sorghum to keep it up for any length of time. Any ideas on growing it and processing it on a small scale?


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Be careful not to give him too much molasses. Maybe after he's beeter you can wean him off of it & go back to his regular special treats. Do you keep baking soda available for him when he needs it?
Still glad he's improving & anything at this point that helps I'd be doing too.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

How much is too much? In his dish I put a little corn, a little goat feed and wet alfalfa cubes. Then I drizzle the molasses over all of it. Maybe about a 1/3 of a cup. Is that too much? Most would be 1/2 of a cup. He then gets sunflower seeds and green grasses from pasture which I go pull for him and his hay. And he gets big handfuls of leaves I rake up for him. He will not take animal crackers or raisins. It seems that none of the Alpines will take the animal crackers or raisins. But the Nubians do the raisins and not the animal crackers. All of them love the alfalfa cubes though. Oops. I forgot about the baking soda. That was free access right? And regular baking soda?

Warrior is working more today on his toes. He takes maybe 5 steps now before going down to his knees. I was trying to "watch" him as I went about doing all of the chores and would go "sneak a peek" at him and he would try on his toes for a few steps, go down to his knees and rest and then try again. While exercising his legs, I bend over him at the head with my legs on each side of him and position his feet up under him, one at a time and then get both legs up and on the hooves and then try and lift him under the front legs. He surprised me and lifted himself up on the right leg almost all of the way. He came up under me as I was bent over him and lifted me up off the ground. But then he went back down. I could only get him to do that the one time. The right leg seems to be the strongest right now and the left one seems to be a little stiffer. But-we will prevail! And his tail-the poor scraggly looking thing-wags all of the time now. 

So the time in between trying seems to be getting shorter and his strength seems to be gaining. His eye color seems to be just a little darker on the one side than the other but even looks better than yesterday. Today I made sure I "felt" all over him to check his condition. He has not lost any more weight and hip area seems to be just a bit better and does not feel as bony. It is hard to grab any excess skin and pull. When I did that he lost some hair. That was on his back tail area hip. It just seemed to pull out. But in other areas his hair looks good and not as scraggly looking. Belly area is good and full and fat. Disposition is great and very attentive and follows well with his eyes and his head. I hate to be hopeful but----.

Thanks everyone. I don't think I could have gotten this far without your help, advice and support. So much appreciated and I am so thankful for every bit of help and support and for every post. You guys do yourself proud. 

Tomorrow is suppose to be a good sunny day and I will take pics of him and post.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

You'd better! We need a face to put with the fighter!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, definately need some pictures of this great boy! 

That sounds like alot of molasses to me but I am one that doesn't feed any feed to my goats that has any molasses in it. I won't even buy rolled oats at my regular feed store because they mix molasses in with them. I may go too far over the top though since I know alot of folks give feed with molasses in it. Too much molasses can cause acidosis with goats & the baking soda helps to counteract that. Maybe someone else will tell you how much molasses is enough but not too much, but you said it seems to be helping him right now so I could be totally wrong too. At least he's doing so much better now.

I get sodium bicarbonate at my feed store in the 50 pound bag & mix with their loose minerals & yes they have access to it 24/7. It's alot cheaper to buy that way than the small boxes at the grocery store & it is the exact same thing.


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

You're doing an amazing job, all on your own. Warrior is very lucky to have you


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Sooo glad to hear this! Yep, the blackstrap molasses has always sped up the eye color for me. I too do not otherwise feed molasses as any part of diet. Does anyone know whether the molasses used in grain mixes is different from the liquid blackstrap kind?
Also, spinach is also a great blood builder.


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## jlrbhjmnc (May 2, 2010)

I lurk in the Goat forum and hope to have goats one day - I do take care of 14 as part of my business, and they are all pets (and very fat and happy goats - it's a lot of fun to hang out with them). This thread about Warrior is one of the best things I've read on HT. Go Warrior (with a little help from Farmerjohn)!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Can't wait to see the pics of Warrior


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Update? Inquiring minds NEED to know.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Warrior is doing about the same. I am exercising the legs several times a day. I have been sort of incapacitated myself due to back and hip problems. Sitting, standing and staying in one position is very painful. But it will go away in time. I got too energetic unloading hay. I still have more coming in with at least 75 bales of straw. The hay I can let the farmer do most of the unloading but the straw I will have to do unless the people I am going with do it all. So, I have been on pain pills and muscle relaxants to get over this. Warrior probably thinks I am nuts when I go to exercise him and feed him. I have to get down on the ground and work with him. He wants to get in my lap and it is hard to manage him from that position as opposed to bending over him.

Warrior is still "trying" to walk. He can get up on his hooves and he takes 2-3 crouched steps and then he stumbles down. But he does keep trying. You can see him trying to "lurch" forward to get up on the front legs but he cannot get all of the way up that way so he will go back down and then go to the left leg, put it up on the hoof and push himself up and get the right leg under him and take a few steps that way but in a crouched position. I use the feed pan to encourage him to get up and "walk" to me. We play that game until he just stays down and says "enough is enough". Then I lay the feed pan out in front of him far enough away that he has to come for it. Which he usually will but on his knees. He is getting too good getting around on those knees. I am going to try and find some more banamine from a vet. I am very low. I know that when I stretch the legs out in front of him he is in discomfort. Maybe some banamine in him will make it less painful?

I haven't cut the barrel sling down yet and I am attempting that today and am going to put him back in it and I think it will fit better. I have to do so much bending over to do it and I have put that off. I noticed that the tendons in the arm pit area are tight when we exercise so I think I need to up the number of sessions to keep that area limber. I think the barrel sling restricts that area when he is in it so I do not think it is getting the best possible use when he is laying down and we flex the leg straight out in front of him, his toes will separate. But as I observe the other goats, they rarely will lay with their legs straight out in front of them. So maybe the toes(hoof) separating is normal in that position I do not know.

I got a gallon of Red Cell, a 2.5 gallon container of molasses, and my feed mill was going to get me 2-50# bags of sodium bicarbonate from their other mill in another town and send over for me. So-got that taken care of.

What does everyone use to feed it in the rainy weather? I have just put it and the minerals out in a pan. I am trying to come up with something that is covered and protected from the weather but still allows them the free access. That is until I can find someone to cut and make me a door of some kind in to the barn so I do not have to keep going out and moving them in and out of the barn. I had changed the pens and areas around this summer in anticipating that I would need to have a better arrangement for the winter months so now am faced with other arrangements being made. 

Pictures will be posted today. Finally got the cord I needed to download the pics and will get that done after the attorney appointment this A.M..  And before the washing machine repair guy and before who knows what to happen next.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Thanks for th update & looking forward to pictures! Please take care of yourself too!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This mineral feeder, in the goat shed where they have access.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...neral-feeder-2x1-75-qt-capacity-black-2221351


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## Ranger (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds to me like you and Warrior are a great team. I'de say that the one who is losing out on a VERY good thing is your ex-DH!!!! I'm pretty sure that I speak for all of us when I say that we are very proud of both you and Warrior.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

You guys are doing great. Take care of yourself and I hope your back heals quickly.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This mineral feeder, in the goat shed where they have access.
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...neral-feeder-2x1-75-qt-capacity-black-2221351


We use the same one. I love it and must be popular because everytime we go back to get some they are gone. I am so glad Warrior is hanging in there I can't wait to see photos.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks so much Alice. I appreciate all of your help and resources as well as everyone else who posts a response.

A lady emailed me and offered to post the pics for me so I sent them to her to do so. I also sent some pics of the sling I had made just in case anyone was interested in them. I seem to have difficulties posting pics here myself. Probably the meds. 

Well-Warrior and I worked quite a bit in this afternoon exercising program. He will try to get those feet under him but just cannot do it. I put him over the half barrel this A.M. and he was putting a lot of weight on the front hooves which was encouraging. Bad thing was is that the back end is so much stronger that he was pretty much just stepping up on the half barrel and going forward then in a nose dive. He just laid there like that and then I had to re-position him and start over. I tried pushing down on the back end but he is so strong in the hind quarters that I just could not get him down. Every time I re-positioned him-his hind legs came up on the half barrel trying to get across it. I gave up. We then just did the regular exercises. This afternoons work included raising the front legs out and a little up in the air. When I lift him up at the front end under the arm pit area and try and get both legs positioned to hold the body weight, he will put weight for just a little bit on hooves but cannot maintain it for more than a few seconds. Then he usually tries and draws a leg back under him and gets all crossed up with legs and goes down. It is like he tries but the legs are just not following his brain right or the brain is not following the legs right. I think he is getting to comfortable on his knees. He will put his body weight on his knees and then the back end will side step or "hop" over for him to change his direction. He will stand in a crouch when I present him with the feed pan but gives up after several tries to get up and get it. I know he must be very uncomfortable when I exercise his legs. He will try and draw them back up under him and he will just lay his head into my leg and keep it there until I am done exercising them. He laid his head on my leg also when I sat on the ground in front of him. He is not gritting his teeth though but today he started a small low snort and he kept belching. Sometimes right in my face! But he got kisses anyway. 

I included a pic of one of his eyelids for everyone to hopefully comment on. I know his body condition is less than I would like to see but is improved allot. And I really think the molasses has helped tremendously. I feed a grass/alfalfa mix hay and am thinking I should get a bale of straight alfalfa hay for him. Would that be too much with the wet alfalfa cubes or not needed? 

I think at this point that he maybe just needs more exercise. I have tried the straight leg splints but he was in more distress with them and gritted his teeth over them and got agitated. I have a guy that offered to cut me some 45 degree angle PVC pieces and then I can put him in them for a bit. At least I was thinking it would still stretch the tendons as they seem really tight and I can feel them pulling and popping out than to go the straight leg splints. Then hopefully graduate to the straight leg splint later. I sure hope he gets the use of his front legs back. And his tail just keeps wagging away.


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## cayenne47 (Nov 7, 2004)

Mine wag too when they are happy.
Im so glad your little guy is hanging in there.:buds:


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

I do think some kind of leg brace is needed at some point to get him walking. The massage therapy will probably just go so far. Just like with people who've been in accidents or have had strokes, etc, it seems Warrior's brain has forgotten the right signals to make his forelegs work and needs to be "taught" all over again. Just how far he may recover is unknown, but boy, you have made such an effort. I would definitely keep it up, as this could take a long time. I wish you had someone to help you hold his weight up while trying to walk him.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I wonder...can you make a sling contraption to go under his belly that you could walk him with? Supporting his front end and walking, you know?


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## Wildwood (Jul 2, 2007)

I've meant to post to this thread for a while. Toward the end of winter DH found one of my little nigie bucks down one morning and I was sure he wouldn't make it. I came in and did a few searches and found this thread. I must have read it four or five times over the next few days and to make a long story short, it save my little boy's life!

It was uncanny how similar their conditions were and how they responded. My buck was down almost two weeks and it was a slow recovery after that but he's as good as new now...DH and I look at him with his huge hay belly and his herd king attitude and can't believe how sick he was and for so long. You would never know it now. I'll never be sure what got him down but in his weakened state, I feel sure he got a worm overload that almost killed him.

I just wanted to thank everyone who offered advice and farmerjohn for doing such a good job documenting the whole thing! I learned a lot and the knowledge has come in handy since.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

So glad this thread helped you Wildwood & your little guy is doing great now! Goats are wonderful little creatures but they sure keep us on our toes!


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## Wildwood (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanks Backfourty. Mine do keep me on my toes...never a dull moment!


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