# If .223 expanding rounds in a 5.56 is best for deer hunting...



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 11/25/20 6:45 PM CST

...would they also be a better round for home defense?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

yes the army doesn't use them because of the Geneva convention but police departments use exactly that


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 11/26/20 2:16 AM CST

Thanks for further clarification on what was going through my thoughts.

I thought about that on my way home from my first trip stalking with two friends around a pine thicket on one of the guys farm yesterday after the morning rain so we didn't make as much noise. 

I recalled what you explained about NATO and the Geneva Convention and rules of military use and thought to myself that I was only a hunter and a civilian surrounded by dopers where I live here and remembered my father's lesson of keeping all firearms ready for home defense.

I was still a bit sore in the wrist from the 5.56 rounds the range master checked me out with when he finished my rigging, but wearing my ACE wrist wrap worked on making that bearable without restricting my hand any worse than a thin hunting glove

The rubber cuff brace although making me feel a bit like a Star Trek Borg made the pistol feel much lighter than the 5 pounds or so and for most of our 2 to 3 hours around that 30 acre thicket and I kept it in hand as I watched where i walked 3 pointed with my ice cleat ring on my rubber crutch tip for better stability in the wet leaves and stopping to use the scope he mounted on it as a monocular.

I did reholster it in the two piece rack style rig he made as we walked less level areas and only saw a doe and on the walk back, the guy who I got my hunt ammo from suggested I fire one round at a tree against a bank about 80 yards away and despite the range fitting and workout, the one shot was accurate and the recoil to me than shooting than shooting my 1911.

As we finished our walk to the truck, he reminded that the 100 rounds or so at the range were to check the weapon and fit me to the rigging and when hunting it is one shot before the buck flips you off with his flag tail if the shot missed..

So now that I have the weapon and some 5,56 ammunition and it's loosened up and cycle checked and smoothed as I simply explained it to her that it was sort of like shooting .38 in a .357 and you better explained the velocity and pressure specs, I think I will stock up on hunting .223 and get enough 5.56 to run both through it on the berm range to keep it smooth, but keep it loaded for hunting here at home.

I'm just glad I am able to get back out in the woods a few times during the season after 15 years out of it. I won't be going two or three times a week like I did 40 years ago but my 3 point crutch creep is about the same speed as a quiet stalk walk and I only rested on trees or my crutch 5 times and while the others with their rifles rested , we all scoped around ahead where we were line stalking .

All we saw was the one doe but any time in the field is fun. I just wish ammo was less expensive but I am satisfied with the $1200 or so she and I invested in my gear to get back in the field.

I got to scratch my hunting itch and if someone comes messing around my place trying to take a shot at me I have a pistol that will either make them think twice about messing with this crutch creeping cripple or leave them for easy pick up for the coroner because my property is all fenced in around my house and out buildings.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Don't hunt with FMJ. No expansion, no hole for blood trailing, increased ricochet risk, not really ethical to hunt with. I've killed truckloads of deer with 223. Put them behind the shoulder, not in the shoulder, and have clear sight of them for a hundred yards after the shot and you'll be fine. An 80 pound crop damage permit doe in July is also a different target than a 200 pound buck with winter fur. A shoulder hit on the latter can stay in the shoulder without penetrating the vitals with any more than shrapnel. With a tight shoulder rib shot, the bullet is going in and blowing up , if it does so in the boiler room, they will die within the time they cover 200 yards. There will be no exit, so you won't be able to track. If you are in a thicket, that could be a problem, if you are in a crop field it's not a problem. With FMJ you get a .22 hole all the way through, if it's in the vitals they will die, but they might make it long enough to cover 400 yards. Have seen FMJ used on crop damage permits, after everyone's freezer was full, it did away with the need to carry a body out of the crop field.

For defense, if it's home defense, HP will give you more margin of error in shot placement, as they will open up and tear blood vessels. FMJ for advancing hordes, where you might think they are 400 yards and they are actually 600, so you are smacking the ground in front of them. The FMJ will hit wet or frozen ground and possibly rocks and maybe deflect up into the enemy horde for extra damage points off of wasted shots.


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## Wyobuckaroo (Dec 30, 2011)

I recalled what you explained about NATO and the Geneva Convention 
+++
There is this with fighting battles and all.. 
However, a large part of the military using FMJ is for reliability of operation in there firearms.. Geneva Convention is more or less secondary to dependability..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

soft points can be 100% reliable just as FMJ however using an expanding bullet on a uniformed enemy is grounds for war crimes.

our local PD uses Hornady Urban tap , even though we are a rural small town the chief figures the way things go if they have to break out the patrol rifles it will happen at the trailer park and he doesn't want to punch 3 trailers to stop a bullet.

the Hornady TAP Urban looks to use a V-Max bullet


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

another good way to think of the 223 in 5.56 rifle is 

in hunting ammo it will easily end up in a bolt action hunting rifle better to make it to 223 specs as the 5.56 can take any of the 223 ammo but not the other way around.


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## Cairnstone Farm (Apr 30, 2020)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> yes the army doesn't use them because of the Geneva convention but police departments use exactly that





Shrek said:


> Posted 11/25/20 6:45 PM CST
> 
> ...would they also be a better round for home defense?


They'll do at close range. Remember, a 223 will be lower pressure in a 5.56 chamber. It will fire with less velocity giving less power in the round. The killing power of 223/5.56 is in its velocity. At speeds above 2,800 fps, the 5.56 55 grain m193 fmj will outperform everything else based on the size of the wound channel. At home defense distances (under 30 feet) it creates around a 6 inch wide wound channel and penetrates much less than a 223 soft point round


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## Cairnstone Farm (Apr 30, 2020)

Shrek said:


> Posted 11/25/20 6:45 PM CST
> 
> ...would they also be a better round for home defense?


Here's a good article explaining what I was talking about
Does a .223 Tumble? Terminal Effects of 223 & 5.56 | Gun Tradition


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