# Going off grid FOREVER



## hippiehill (Feb 5, 2006)

So, I have a chance of leasing an AFrame for $1 a year with a ten year lease. Option to buy later down the road. Nice land little over an acre, wooded, clearing for garden, "rustic" barn. A Frame is south facing with a glass front, huge screened in porch about the size of a two car garage with a sleeping loft. No basement! Surrounded by a spot of state woods. VERY secluded. Creek that runs for all than three months. I would be able to "improve" the house to make it "livable"

Starting from ground zero. No electric, septic, water or phone. Where do I start? I have a small woodcookstove, kerosine lamp, an old clawfoot bathtub, an old kitchen sink and a handpump not hooked up to anything. I can probably get an old propane fridge cannibalized from an old camper. Anything propane would have to be in tanks that I can remove and fill - maybe with a little help!

I am going this alone, armed with my goats, dogs, cats, various poultry, 4x4 truck and cellphone. I do need to say that I am a 40 year old woman with a bum hip. Walk with a cane. I will have help some from my friends and an unlimited supply of split wood. I work 20 to 30 hours as a cook and I want to do this on my present, lousy $170 a week.

I have my own property now, but I lept before I looked, I have put 4 -5k into this place and as of right now I have no running water, hot water, or reliable heat. I did have these things, but everythings broken, no/bad foundation, bad roof, and I'm sitting on top of a 2500 electric bill. I have a land contract and still owe about $15,000. I have the option to try and sell or give him back the keys. I am seriously considering "walking away" from all this and going to the woods!

I need ingenious, very cheap ideas on how to live here. I am not trying to run alot of appliances. I would like to try to keep my freezer or save up for a propane one. (I have a tiny walmart model) I usually have alot of milk and eggs and cheese to store. Mayhaps a springhouse over the creek? It would be a tiny camper fridge. I also have garden produce to store and process.

I can heat water on the stove winter, spring and fall for the tub, etc. Possibly put in something solar for the summer. I need a big tank and can have water delivered for a nominal fee and can handpump into the sink. How, I really don't know! It must be freezeproof. I can use the greywater for watering my ornamentals. Again, needs to be frostproofed.

Don't care about tv, but need a radio and cd player and an alarm clock to get up for work! Outdoor lights would be needed-solar would probably work. 

I also love my sewing machine and it is electric. Can I run it off a car battery somehow with possibly a solar charger. I will miss the internet and my computer, but there is always the library!

I also will need to be able to charge my cellphone. It is my prepaid lifeline. (I've fallen and can't get up!) (My truck is stuck-again) Will just my car charger work?

Then, there's the human waste problems! yes, I know about composting toilets-but unless someone has a free one, for right now it's looking like an outhouse. Anyone regulary use one or put one in before? I'm sure it's more than just a hole in the ground!

Would one of those little handtruck solar array from realgoods do me any good? A small generator that I can run a thing or two from.

Should I get some sort of pellet gun or something for things that go bump in the night and try to eat my goats?

So, any of your wisdom and insight would be helpfull.

I would also become "hippiehollow" instead of "hippiehill" lol


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

it all depends on how much you want to or can spend, to run your freezer you need a good size solar system. I live mostly on 12 volts, thats the same as a car. (solar panels-batterys) and I have lights a tv, vcr, dvd. this lap top. and use a genorator for bigger things like washing machine, dryer, shop tools. my solar system cost me about $4000. and it is a small system.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

If you didn't get a loan for your place I wouldn't walk away..I would run to the new place. I hope you can get yourself set up for what you need.
Sorry but have to ask....are you going to make monthly installments or just pay for the whole 10 years at once  
Good luck


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## swampgirl (Aug 29, 2006)

Walk away from the old place. Sounds to me like you'd better think of security for your goats & pets first. Then look to drinking water. Live like a pioneer; forget the freezer & sewing machine. They can come later when you get in better financial shape.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

hippiehill said:


> Starting from ground zero. No electric, septic, water or phone.


Iâve been living like this for the past ten years. 



> Where do I start?


Just do it.



> I have a small woodcookstove


Does this place have a functioning chimney? 



> kerosine lamp, an old clawfoot bathtub, an old kitchen sink and a handpump not hooked up to anything. I can probably get an old propane fridge cannibalized from an old camper. Anything propane would have to be in tanks that I can remove and fill - maybe with a little help!


You donât need the tub or the pump (âcause you donât have a well), or a âfridge.



> I do need to say that I am a 40 year old woman with a bum hip. Walk with a cane.


Youâll have some trouble, then. Iâm old, but I'm healthy.



> I am seriously considering "walking away" from all this and going to the woods!


Youâll probably be money ahead if you really can âjust walk awayâ.



> I need ingenious, very cheap ideas on how to live here. I am not trying to run alot of appliances. I would like to try to keep my freezer or save up for a propane one. (I have a tiny walmart model) I usually have alot of milk and eggs and cheese to store. Mayhaps a springhouse over the creek? It would be a tiny camper fridge. I also have garden produce to store and process.


You want too much. If youâre gonna live âcheapâ, youâll have to live cheap. You donât need milk, you donât need to refrigerate eggs and cheese, and you don't need frozen foods. Shop every few days, and donât buy large quantities. Aldies is great. 



> I can heat water on the stove winter, spring and fall for the tub, etc. Possibly put in something solar for the summer. I need a big tank and can have water delivered for a nominal fee and can handpump into the sink. How, I really don't know! It must be freezeproof. I can use the greywater for watering my ornamentals.


You donât need hot water. Iâve been washing in ambient temp water for ten years (yes, that includes all winter. When thereâs enough snow on the ground, I âscrub upâ with snow.) I supply all my water needs by filling gallon jugs at work, and by harvesting rainwater. Been washinâ up in the wheelbarrow for the last 10 months! I broke through a skim of ice a half dozen times before it froze solid. With a âCreek that runs for all than three months (?)â, you ought to have plenty of water. 



> Again, needs to be frostproofed.


No, you just need to make sure that the things you have can freeze without damage. 



> Don't care about tv, but need a radio and cd player and an alarm clock to get up for work!


Batteries.



> Outdoor lights would be needed-solar would probably work.


LED headlamp.



> I also love my sewing machine and it is electric. Can I run it off a car battery somehow with possibly a solar charger.


Possibly, but getting set up to do that will cost. How many amps does the thing draw?



> I also will need to be able to charge my cellphoneâ¦ Will just my car charger work?


Yes. 



> Then, there's the human waste problems! yes, I know about composting toilets-but unless someone has a free one, for right now it's looking like an outhouse. Anyone regulary use one or put one in before? I'm sure it's more than just a hole in the ground!


My âouthouseâ is a 4â X 4â three sided shed over a blue barrel set part way into the ground, with a toilet seat mounted on it. 

Look into five-gallon pail, sawdust toilets. Thereâs a lot of info here, and on other Internet sites. 



> Would one of those little handtruck solar array from realgoods do me any good? A small generator that I can run a thing or two from.


I think youâre still wantinâ to âlive largeâ.



> Should I get some sort of pellet gun or something for things that go bump in the night and try to eat my goats?


No. Get a real gun, and make sure you know how to use it. 

Look, living the way I do is simple and easy, 'cause I don't have all of those 'labor saving' devices that eat up everybody else's time. But, I don't know _anyone_ else who would trade places with me. when I describe how I live, most people look at me in horror. 

Good luck.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

hippiehill said:


> I need ingenious, very cheap ideas on how to live here. I am not trying to run alot of appliances. I would like to try to keep my freezer or save up for a propane one. (I have a tiny walmart model) I usually have alot of milk and eggs and cheese to store. Mayhaps a springhouse over the creek? It would be a tiny camper fridge. I also have garden produce to store and process.
> 
> I can heat water on the stove winter, spring and fall for the tub, etc. Possibly put in something solar for the summer. I need a big tank and can have water delivered for a nominal fee and can handpump into the sink. How, I really don't know! It must be freezeproof. I can use the greywater for watering my ornamentals. Again, needs to be frostproofed.
> 
> ...


A spring house and root cellar would be the traditional ways to keep produce and dairy from day to day. Solar would be better than propane for running a freezer, since once you buy the solar panels you only need to worry about replacing batteries every 5 to 15 years, rather than hauling a propane tank every few months or more often. 

Collect rainwater from the roof. In the summer, let it warm in a tub or tank all day for baths. Then you only need a teakettle of boiling water to raise the temp if it isn't warm enough. Bury a tank for rainwater storage, use a handpump to get it into the house. Filter it for drinking if you want to.

If you do a PV system for the freezer, it should handle your cell phone, radio, CD player, and sewing machine without trouble. I think we used to run our sewing machine on a 100 watt or less inverter. Cell phones can be charged with some of the handcranked flashlights, too, with the proper cord.

Read "The Humanure Book" for ideas about building a composting toilet that will probably work better than store bought ones.

How much would a PV system cost?? Hard to guesstimate without knowing more exact details of location, loads, etc.


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## BeckyW (Mar 11, 2003)

What an adventure! You've been given great advice. Isn't this a terrific forum?! :clap:  :dance: 

Is your hip in bad enough shape that you could not use a treadle sewing machine? Lehman's sells them. Or maybe you could find one of the old Singer treadle machines. They've been working for more than 100 years. I think you should be able to find the cabinets fairly easily in antique stores/flea markets. 

I think about what I'd want off in the woods in a remote location. A sewing machine would provide hours of relaxation as well as enormous benefit. (My other want, besides lights, would be music!) If you can't use a treadle, I think I'd see if someone couldn't figure out a power arrangement just enough to run a sewing machine! If there isn't an economical solution, pehaps a local church will allow you to swap some volunteer work for being able to plug a sewing machine in an unused room during the week. 

Back in hills of West Virginia, my grandmothers and great aunts grew up without refrigerators. There was a spring house that a creek ran through to keep milk and butter and such cold. The root cellar was used for produce. Meat was butchered fresh (chickens and turkeys) while all the pork was cured in the smoke house.

I hope you keep us updated on what you choose to do.
Best wishes
BW


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## hippiehill (Feb 5, 2006)

Looks like I can't take the freezer! Take a zero off that 4 grand (not quite!). I was looking at one of those prepackage do-hicky things from Flare. It is $1878. I will tell you what it says, and MAYBE someone can translate it to what it will really do. (I can't even figure out my cell phone) Again, this would be eventually. And maybe I won't even need it with rechargable batteries

It is the Solar Nomad Portable PV System. It has "2 x Kyocera KC-80 80 watt photovoltaic modules/UniRac pole mount/Xantrax DR512 inverter charger with Prostar 15 amp charge controller (Items not mounted on a power panel)/Digital system monitor included on Prostar/2 x MK Gel 98 amp hour maintenance-free batteries" Then it says Array Output: 160 watts; Inverter Output 500 watts; System Voltage 12 volts; Sine Wave Form Modified.

What will that run? Is that AC or DC? Will it charge power tool batteries like a drill? My cell phone? Do I really need it?

I plan on Kerosene Lanterns from Lehmans, a wash board and a clothes line. A solar shed light so I can check on "the girls". A simple outdoor shower for summer, and heating water on the cookstove for winter. Very basic needs here! Of course, I do eventually want a James Wringer Washer, a composting toilet, and a Snorkel hot tub. lol - just the basics. (There I go livin' large again)

I actually do think I can actually pay all ten years rent at once. (Never thought I'd say that!)

So glad you guys are out there! Many people think I'm crazy (That damn hippie is at it again with her scheming) To me, it makes sense!

There is no chimney, but good old tractor supply has chimney pipe and I have a tax refund coming! Doesn't matter if I stay here or go - the cookstove is going in one place or the other!

I don't BUY milk, cheese, eggs, or frozen food. I have an almost never ending supply of goats milk and I make cheese, yogurt, butter, icecream (hand cranker) and soap. (Actually the soap is pretty cool. A guy down the road makes biodiesel and he gives me glycerine which is a biproduct) I freeze excess garden produce, excess goat's milk till I figure out a better breeding schedule to extend the milk.

A treadle sewing machine would probably be the way to go! I can always use the other foot! Hip just acts up with cold and damp for now. I barely limp in the summer. Joint is flat and with osteo. (Talk about the daily grind!) Eventually will have to have it replaced. I'm holding out for new technology. Now a replacement lasts 12 -15 years with light use. I don't think splitting wood with a maul is light use!

Great toilet ideas Steve L! I'm thinking of all these complicated things and since I'm trying to simplify everything else................

The stream runs except in Dec, Jan, Feb. I know I can haul buckets, but I have a hard time physically doing it. I also don't want to drink it or give it to the girls (goats) because this area is extensively farmed (potatoes). There are signs in the high school saying pregnant woman and elementary school children shouldn't drink the water because of the high nitrates. But then again, who's to say if the milk truck deliveres 500 gallons into a tank that it doesn't have nitrates either.

Yeah, I know I don't "need" hot water, but it does sterilize things a little better for milking. I also have my one true vanity which is my butt length hair and I hate to wash it in cold water because it makes my head hurt!! I know it's just hair, but its the only good thing I have left! lol But if it has to go it will go and be donated.

I also really don't want to go outside for water-hence the handpump at a kitchen sink. And I already have the hand pump and kitchen sink!

And my house now. It is not a loan per sea. If I do not keep up on the taxes and the payments he takes it back and sells it to the next unsuspecting person with stars in their eyes. The horse farm next door has some interest in bulldozing the place down! In fact, originally they owned the land and gave it to their reverend and they have rights to my water well. I was COMPLETELY unaware of this till AFTER the paperwork was signed. He can come after me for the balance if he really wants too. I know now he is known for his nefarious business dealings and noone in town trusts him. I also serve him coffee at the store about 10 times a day. He lets me slide on payments - he knows I am over my head, and he couldn't help but see me fill buckets at the store's spicot. He bought this place for $3300, put in a gravel driveway, and sold it to me for $19,000. He own a gravel business. A trailer from the 60's with a hodgepodge of additions-built with old potato barns. This was also a seasonal residence, which probably explains why the water is STILL completely frozen! But I HAD to have a place in the country and couldn't get conventional financing. Originally I also had a pretty good job, but it was a 50 mile commute one way!

So, sorry this is so long, but I think I answered everybody's questions! I'm seriously leaning toward that cabin!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

DR 512. . . .?? . . . hmmm

Thats "modified sine wave"
There is an extensive list of items that do not like that wave form. Don't know how >Your< cell phone charger or sewing machine will handle it.

I am not at all in favor of those "package deals" of components.

Who's going to put that pole mount up for you (cause of your bum hip) . . . ?
And do you know enough about this electrical stuff to be able to wire it together propperly . .??

Consulting a dealer\installer in your area would be a wise move. His (or her) expertise_in person_ is far better than some clap trap you are likely to get on the net.

Yes a PV system is The way to go for what you have been talking about, but it needs to be installed right.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Agree with Jim-Mi.

Start reading this....
www.homepower.com

Then visit a local solar shop. I didnt care for the system you mentioned,esp. the inverter.500 watts is inadequate for what they are going to charge you,and its just not enough.Mod sine waves from Xantrex,1100 watts are available for less than 100 bucks.

Talk to the folks,tell them what you want to do,keep it very realistic cause its expensive.

BooBoo


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

hippiehill, good for you! I want to encourage you to try this lifestyle, and don't think you have to live like a hermit or make huge sacrifices to do it. You do have to become more conscious of what you do and choose how you want to live. I have good friends who are in an off-grid community of 8 homes, and they live off solar and woodstoves and shower water that is collected in a tank painted black with a solar panel attached to heat the water. Their home was built to take advantage of solar and also passive cooling. They live well!

I do have to agree with the PHILOSOPHY of what Steve L. says. Being conscious of what you choose and what you do not choose in your life can lead to an amazing degree of simplification, rather than just mindlessly following the consumer mentality. I would caution you that the consumer mentality also exists among folks who are off grid and are solar users, etc. Resist that route if you can and try to find someone who has lived this lifestyle for many years, like my friends have, to guide you away from pitfalls and toward success. They can help you scale the learning curve more quickly, and save you money.

Best of luck to you.


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## hippiehill (Feb 5, 2006)

It wouldn't be me putting it up! I'd have help from a qualified friend. I'm still trying to decide what I'm going to do! I'm torn! The only difference between here and there are here I still have electricity (for now) (still no water), but the bills are here and not there! I'd be having a killer yard sale if I move. Electric frypan, toaster oven, microwave, crockpot, toaster oven anyone? I feel ridiculous having so much crap!

Now, I thought prepacked would be the way to go - idiot proof? 

Anyways, any system would be for the future. Reading up on human manure and cottage water systems. This time I will be prepared!


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

hippiehill said:


> I plan on Kerosene Lanterns from Lehmansâ¦


I use pump-up gasoline (Coleman fuel) lanterns.



> â¦a wash boardâ¦


I go to the Laundromat, and line dry. Too lazy/not enough time in my life for hand washing. 



> â¦A solar shed light so I can check on "the girls"â¦


A solar shed light is $60 -$80, a LED headlamp is $6 - $8, and youâll still need the headlamp. I use mine ALL the time, inside, outside, night and day. 



> A simple outdoor shower for summer, and heating water on the cookstove for winter. Very basic needs here! Of course, I do eventually want a James Wringer Washer, a composting toilet, and a Snorkel hot tub. lol - just the basics. (There I go livin' large again)


Oddly enough, ten years ago I had the same plans. I still would like the Snorkel. 



> So glad you guys are out there! Many people think I'm crazyâ¦


You are. :croc: 



> There is no chimney, but good old tractor supply has chimney pipeâ¦


$500, MINIMUM, to go through your roof. Figure on spending about a grand. 



> I freeze excess garden produce, excess goat's milkâ¦


Again, I recommend thinking seasonal. You CANNOT preserve vegetables cheaper than you can buy them at Aldiâs, Samâs Club, etc. Itâs fun, it gives you independence, itâs not too expensive, but, your time and money can be spent a lot better right now on other things.



> The stream runs except in Dec, Jan, Feb. I know I can haul buckets, but I have a hard time physically doing it.


Yep. It gets real old, real fast. Iâve been carrying water dipped out of ponds and streams off and on moreân forty years!! Did most of it as a kid, though. 



> I also don't want to drink it or give it to the girls (goats) because this area is extensively farmed (potatoes). There are signs in the high school saying pregnant woman and elementary school children shouldn't drink the water because of the high nitratesâ¦


A valid concern. Isnât the water supply for Perry (or one of your rinky-dink little towns :nana: :lookout: ) a spring right next to some potato farms?



> But then again, who's to say if the milk truck deliveres 500 gallons into a tank that it doesn't have nitrates eitherâ¦


An elevated 500 gal tank (new materials) will set you back close to $2000. 



> Yeah, I know I don't "need" hot water, but it does sterilize things a little better for milkingâ¦


Actually, I appear to be the only one who doesnât "need" hot water, from what everybody tells me. What can I say? Iâm LAZY!!! :rock: 



> I also really don't want to go outside for water-hence the handpump at a kitchen sink. And I already have the hand pump and kitchen sink!


One gallon jugs, at least for inside. Theyâre free, and everyone can carry them. I hand dug my own well, I have two hand pumps (neither one of which is installed), but I haul water in jugs. 

There ARE all kinds of possibilities, but Iâd need to know more. How far below you is the stream, how far away is it, is your lot level, tree covered, clay soil, and on and on. 



Jim S. said:


> â¦ don't think you have to live like a hermit or make huge sacrificesâ¦


Hey! I resemble that remark!!!



> â¦the consumer mentality also exists among folks who are off grid and are solar users, etcâ¦


Thatâs fer sure.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

I haul all my water now in a 55 gallon drum a good long hose and it will siphon from the back of your truck into the barrel in the kitchen.
I prefer propane lamps.
Think about keeping some electric apliances We ran a microwave, washer , dryer waterpump,vaccum ,curling iron, and other things by the simple expediant of having a generater that we would run for an hour or so each day. while it was running we would do as much as possable charge batteries cook wash clean etc.
On the cell phone get a small 12volt converter and plugin your regular phone charger to it and charge it while on your way to, during ,and back from work.
And yep a outhouse isnt much more than a hole in the ground!


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## Al. Countryboy (Oct 2, 2004)

I also have a 12volt light that looks like a regular 110 bulb that hooks to a battery. If the power is off, I pull the car up close to the kitchen door and hook it up to my car battery. It has about a 10 cord that runs into the kitchen. It should last for a good while each night and you would recharge your battery in your car on your way to work the next day. It probably cost $4 or $5 at the most. I also have a solar hot water heater I made. Easy to do. Nothing expensive and when the sun shines, believe me it gets hot. I am sure there is some way that you could also run your heater pipe without going up through the roof and would cost alot less that the amount mentioned above. Around here you can buy those 55 gal. plastic barrels for about $8 a piece to store water in. Even have holes that PVC pipe screw into where it can be turned off and on as needed. Split one in half or down the middle and you have a nice light weight tub for washing clothes or cut long ways for taking a bath. I think that you mentioned that the house was an A frame stye. Would it be hard to heat? Wondering if it has high ceilings and with no way to circulate the air if it might stay cold down stairs? Wondering if this place is very far from your workplace and are the roads to the house ok in winter and when it rains? So many thing to consider, but sounds like fun . Wish life around here was sometimes just a little bit simplier.


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## hippiehill (Feb 5, 2006)

Heeeyyyy, Perry is right down the road! Perry is a city compared to the town of Wethersfield and the Hamlet of Hermitage. I actually used to work in the potato business. Everything was going great till I asked my boss how he feels about Letchworth High not being able to drink the water because of his field across the street. Funny, I was working on call and now the phone doesn't ring. He also lives right behind me. Ok, I can see his house in the distance. Anyways, he has forgiven me but calls me the Organic Freak. Now I am "The Garden Gnome" because I have started Master Gardner classes. Maybe right down the road from you Steve - (Canandaqua?)

Again with that Aldi's! Loooonnnng way away, but yes, I do have Save Alot. My produce is organic. nah-nah-nah nah. Ok, so I can eat what I've got when I've got it, let the animals gorge on the excess and get the stuff I need in winter. I'll have to go there for flour, etc anyways. Not too mention catfood. I do also get a free meal every day I work!

I'd probably be at the laundromat myself after the first few washboard incidents.

I was thinking more of a bunch of 55 gallon. I have to figure out my water needs. I'm hauling it from the store now in five gallon pails. I know I need about 10 gallons a day in winter for the livestock and that will go up in the summer. Or maybe they can just walk down to the friggin stream! I cannot let my animals loose now-my neighbor is afraid of chickens (and a farm girl at that!)

I'm sold on the headlamp. Actually need one here now! I know about the cost for the stove pipe.

Oh, the roads, I'd be about 5 or 10 miles from work. Dirt road but plowed. It's actually less than that, but 1/2 the road is seasonal and I'd have to go the long way.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

there are lots of little projects you can do to help throughout the year. a small hydraulic ram pump can save a lot of running to the creek for livestock water. does the creek still run during the winter? does it just freeze on top?

http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm










my old pastor used to heat water in a batch heater on his roof. it was a black 55 gallon drum. in the summer you could use a batch heater in an elevated position and build a simple shower outdoors...don't mind the neighbors, lol.

i wonder if a small solar collector set in a southern window indoors, thermosyphoning water linked with a small holding tank could heat water in the winter? hmmm

if you are using a woodstove, a coil of copper pipe around the stovepipe will heat the water. if you have a tank that is elevated, and fed from a ram pump, maybe that could be your water heater.


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## hippiehill (Feb 5, 2006)

What are the chances of coiled pipe by the woodstove blowing up? I have thought about doing something like this where I am now. I was going to run something by the stove, then into my water tank to preheat, but I keep hearing about these things blowing up! I can get a water reservior for the stove, someone had one that would fit and my neighbor will weld it on for me. Then, I thought what about an old car radiator?

Great water ram specs! Creek slows to barely a trickle, mostly frozen, but that would work most months. I could always haul for winter. I am now!

I got the idea for the outside shower from Countryside. It has a wood platform with a black 55 gallon tank, and an old metal sprinkling can head for the shower! I can make "privacy" slatted walls from old pallets. There are no neighbors, but I could possible scare the crap outta some fishermen or hunters.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

maybe if you coiled the pipe near the stove and in such a way as to let it drain, and placed a valve before the coil below the reservoir, maybe then it wouldn't steam and build pressure. just thinking outloud, lol.


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## Al. Countryboy (Oct 2, 2004)

My grandfather had a 55 gal. drum painted black at the back of his work shop that we showered in as kids. A few years ago I built one and enclosed the drum in glass. I worked really nice during the summer months. One trick that I also did was since the warmest water is always at the top of the barrel so where the shower head attached to the barrel on the inside of the drum, I add a flex line and float where water would be drawn off the top of the drum instead of off the bottom. You could get a really almost hot shower that way. Like you I have goats and freeze my milk and cheese. We garden also and mostly feeze the surplus. I know that I can probably buy eggs from the store cheeper than the cost of feeding chickens and yes can foods from the store are cheep, but just knowing that most of the meals that we eat are the fruits of our labor and from our animals is very rewarding. Also knowing that there was nothing sprayed on our crops to keep off insects, no hormones added make our goats produce unheard of amounts of milk and eggs is satisfing also.


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## ma1bob (Dec 12, 2006)

As for a firearm for varmits that may decide to relieve you of your livestock. We use a 410 shotgun. No kick and it will dispatch any predator. Very versatile. You don't have to be a crack shot. I have dropped foxes at 25 yards with no problem. Does wonders on racoons and posums. Excellent snake gun. 


Cheers

Bob


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

hippiehill said:


> Maybe right down the road from you Steve - (Canandaqua?)


Itâs Canandaigua, but no, not there. I live in Yates Co., work in Geneva. One of my friends has property in the Perry area, and I love Letchworth State Park! 



> Again with that Aldi's! Loooonnnng way away, but yes, I do have Save Alot. My produce is organic. nah-nah-nah nah. Ok, so I can eat what I've got when I've got it, let the animals gorge on the excess and get the stuff I need in winter. I'll have to go there for flour, etc anyways. Not too mention catfood. I do also get a free meal every day I work!
> 
> I'd probably be at the laundromat myself after the first few washboard incidents.


When you get that wood stove fired up, home canning is an option. My SO and I have canned quite a bit. Also, don't forget that there are a lot of vegetables that can be 'root cellared' (even if the 'cellar' is just the space under your bed). You might be able to go through the floor of that A-frame, stick a couple of plastic barrels in the ground, and store all kinds of stuff. I keep thinking I'ma gonna put a barrel in the ground to use as a 'fridge, but never get around to it. 

Are you a meat eater? 



> I was thinking more of a bunch of 55 gallon. I have to figure out my water needs. I'm hauling it from the store now in five gallon pails. I know I need about 10 gallons a day in winter for the livestock and that will go up in the summer. Or maybe they can just walk down to the friggin stream! I cannot let my animals loose now-my neighbor is afraid of chickens (and a farm girl at that!)


Iâve got a PBP, 7 chickens, 4 geese. Theyâre âusingâ 3 or so gallons a day. 

Youâre starting to inspire me into getting _my_ pump into _my_ well! Iâd been planning on getting some fence up this spring, and getting some goats/sheep for brush control. 



> I'm sold on the headlamp. Actually need one here now!


You wonât be sorry. Theyâre great!



hippiehill said:


> What are the chances of coiled pipe by the woodstove blowing up?


Iâve always avoided these kinds of things because of the PITA factor, rather than the danger. 

What about installing a barrel up near the peak, and using a 12v dc pump to fill it? That water would be usably warm most of the time during the heating season, at least. 

Iâm also wondering how tough it would be to mount an air pump (the pump from a âbackpackâ type sprayer) on a drum in your car/truck to pressurize it for refilling any elevated barrels you might want to use. 

BYW, what do you drive right now?



Al. Countryboy said:


> One trick that I also did was since the warmest water is always at the top of the barrel so where the shower head attached to the barrel on the inside of the drum, I add a flex line and float where water would be drawn off the top of the drum instead of off the bottomâ¦


That is an _outstanding_ idea! :goodjob: 



> I know that I can probably buy eggs from the store cheeper than the cost of feeding chickens and yes can foods from the store are cheep, but just knowing that most of the meals that we eat are the fruits of our labor and from our animals is very rewarding. Also knowing that there was nothing sprayed on our crops to keep off insects, no hormones added make our goats produce unheard of amounts of milk and eggs is satisfing also.


I agree, and thatâs the direction Iâm heading, too.


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## hippiehill (Feb 5, 2006)

Looks like the limp will be gone. Gotta go to the specialist 3/1 and schedule my hip replacement. Walking on garbage and deteriorating fast according to last weeks exrays! No options left. Anyways, I will be stronger and steadier than I have been in years. No more falling down! I can just see me without surgery stuck in the sleeping loft with the cell phone downstairs!

Now I have to find someone to take care of the girls while I'm laid up.

Won't be able to move till after surgery which is after master gardener 4/25. I may be planting my garden there before I get all the way in. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it "freedom's just another word for nuthin else to lose"

I figured I could can with at least a water bath canner. Pressure canning on a wood stove might not be a good idea - at least for me. I'm afraid to use one now. (I think there's still mashed potatoes on my ceiling)

Barrel under the floor sounds like an idea. How fast can a bear tear thru a spring house? I'm guessing pretty quick. Do bears eat goats? There was one wandering around up there.

I'm right down the street from the park!

I do eat meat, mainly fish and chicken depending on the season or how many hens start crowing. I raised broilers last year, but won't do it again. Somethings not natural the way they grow. Beef now and then. I don't really store meat. My friend keeps trying to give me a calf, but the two year committment.........

Whats a PBP?

Found a new 325 gallon water tank for about $200, but looks like I may be able to scrounge something cheaper - old milk tank!

I'll have some nubian/pygmy crosses in April - really cheap! Couldn't find anyone with a nubian buck, so looks like I made minimilkers.

I'm driving my beat up old 88 4x4 Dodge Dakota Sport. 465,000 on the body, about 200,000 on everything else. Big old roll bars on the back with lights. I feel a little foolish driving it. Hey, two years on a $500 purchase with $100 invested. Needs tires, but pretty dependable. Not pretty! Right now I can't get up into the thing and nothing to weld a step too!

How far down did you have to dig for a well? I think I want running water (or pumping) much more than electricity! I don't think my pipes will defrost till April! Got the heat tape on and a little heater in there. Wish the mainline was not plastic, propane torch with melt it! Now my drainlines have frozen, and I think it is colder in the kitchen than the fridge (lol) Oh, and apparantly there's moisture in the propane line going to my stove and THAT froze! I think a smaller more open place would be easier to heat with wood that this hodge podge lodge!

My SO will not be coming with me. He's still trying to find Barnes & Noble out here and a good place to get a latte!

You guys definately have a lot of info! Getting up my courage.........


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

hippiehill said:


> Gotta go to the specialist 3/1 and schedule my hip replacementâ¦


I hope everything goes well for you. 



> I figured I could can with at least a water bath canner. Pressure canning on a wood stove might not be a good idea - at least for me. I'm afraid to use one now. (I think there's still mashed potatoes on my ceiling)


Youâll probably âevolveâ into some kind of propane burner/stove, anyway, at least for summer cooking/water heating. I have a cheap ($35?) fish fryer that I use for heating scalding water (chicken plucking). I boiled (and burned!!!) some maple sap with it, last spring. 



> I'm right down the street from the park!


âRight down the streetâ LOL! Itâs a _looong_ park!



> Whats a PBP?


Pot bellied pig. 



> Found a new 325 gallon water tank for about $200, but looks like I may be able to scrounge something cheaper - old milk tank!


I forget about milk tanks. Good idea!



> I'll have some nubian/pygmy crosses in April - really cheap! Couldn't find anyone with a nubian buck, so looks like I made minimilkers.


Great. I might be interested. 



> I'm driving my beat up old 88 4x4 Dodge Dakota Sport. 465,000 on the body, about 200,000 on everything else.


WOW!!!! :dance: :clap: 



> How far down did you have to dig for a well?


Only ten feet, very sandy gravel. Ainât much of a well, but Iâm next to a swamp.



> I think a smaller more open place would be easier to heat with wood that this hodge podge lodge!


Much, much easier. 

Good Luck!!!


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

LIGHTING SUGGESTIONS: Look at the variety of shake/crank LED flashlights that are available to you and see if any of those will work for you as generic lights just to have a light as they don't require batteries. Second, for lighting to read or cook by, the battery powered LED lights that can be strapped to your head or clipped to the bill of a baseball style cap work well and even better if you can use rechargeable batteries. For long range lighting look for rechargeable high power handheld spotlights or those that plug into a 12 volt cigarette lighter plug. The latter can be plugged into your truck's lighter or can be plugged into many portable rechargeable air compressor/jump starter units made currently. The power sources generally can be recharged with a vehicle and could reduce your need for grid power at your homestead. Or you could recharge them at work. As for area lighting for your livestock use some of the solar pathway lighting units by mounting them around the doorway of your goat shelter or in the general vecinity of where they lay to sleep.

WATER STORAGE: Wal-Marts generally have a couple different sizes of blue plastic Aquatainer brand water jugs in the sporting goods department. The ones I have are square shaped seven gallon models. I use them for emergency water storage in case of power outage on my current homestead. They are large enough to carry a reasonable water supply per jug but are still light enough for reasonable carrying. To insulate such jugs, built a small wooden box frame and insulate it with blocks of at least a layer one inch thick of blue cell foam insulation, perhaps two inches just to be safe. The box must insulate the water jugs on all six sides and you might be able to make a window seat or bedframe style storage box that will be storage space for the water but also give you seating or sleeping area too to better utilize space. This way you don't have to worry about whether your A-frame house's stove goes out while you are gone shopping or while at work.

WATER QUALITY: You might want to have a water filtration system to pump water through to clean it for consumption from the spring, at the least use water purifying chemics like Potable-Agua brand tablets or unscented bleach. This would be slow for livestock watering though. You might want to use the Aquatainer brand jugs to haul water in from town that you fill after work. If you fill your truck bed with them, or at least a few, you could keep quite a bit of potable water on hand without having to refill lots of one gallon jugs or having to worry about the weight and slosh factor of a truck bed of water jugs. Water weights about eight pounds per gallon. With your mid-size pickup it wouldn't take too much to reach its payload capacity.

FIREARMS RECOMMENDATIONS: For predators the size of bears, I would not recommend a centerfire rifle smaller than a .30-30 Winchester loaded with cartridges firing 170 grain soft point bullets. Preferably I would recommend a .308 Winchester firing 150 grain premium grade bullets (for better penetration of a bear sized animal) but it would be better to have 165 to 180 grain premium bullets to be on the safe side. Besides those two calibers, I would recommend the .30-06 Springfield, .270 Winchester, .45-70 and 12 gauge slugs due to availablity in rural areas and their relatively controlable recoil for someone not used to firing a firearm. For someone not experienced with firearms, I would recommend the .30-30, .308 and .270. If you can find reduced recoil slugs and 00 (double ought) buckshot loads where you are at, then I would also recommend a 12 gauge shotgun as the reduced recoil ammuntion will be easier on your shoulder and just as effective at shorter ranges around the homestead while allowing you to get back on target quicker if you need a follow up shot at a bear or two-legged predator. Attached to a rifle or shotgun for night time usage I would recommend the attachment of what is often referred to as a "tactical" light and a laser illuminator or laser sight. The tactical light will illuminate your target so you can identify it without tying up your hands with a firearm and a flashlight. The laser illuminator, when zeroed in properly to a particular distance, will allow you to see where your firearm is aimed in low light when you may not be able to use the firearm's sights in low light or when you cannot quickly shoulder the firearm. Used together they allow you to identify and engage your target quickly with much less fumbling. I use that set up on my homestead 12 gauge when I have to check for predators at night and for homestead defense.

PEACE OF MIND RECOMMENDATIONS: Try to live a purposeful, simplified existence. You need heat/shelter, food and water. Everything else is luxury. Your animals provide part of your food so they too need shelter from the elements, bedding, food and water. You need to find the simplest, least complicated way to provide for your alarm clock (perhaps a windup mechanical model?), to power a radio/CD player (rechargeable batteries?) and to provide heat and light (wood stove in winter along with thick blankets and quilts, candles, pressurized or wicked kerosene or "coal oil" lamps or even trying to just use the sun for lighting and going to bed when the sun sets and rise when the sun rises).

I freely admit that I am working toward my goal of purposeful simplicity and more natural living, but as you are much closer to that than I, I hope my words, and those of others who are there now, can help you find your center of contentment for how you wish to live a more carefree, less demanding life.


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

For your rural homestead you might want to simplify your fuel sources so that you aren't trying to store too many different fuels for your equipment making for stocking and storage hassles.

Firewood is fine since it is plentiful for you and have someone to get it to you. It stores well so long as you can cover it against rain, snow and ice to keep it from getting wet or frozen over.

Propane devices generally use the small one pound bottles that are not labled for refill though I have seen an adaptor that allows you to refill them from a larger tank. The manufacturer name escapes me right now. However, there is an adaptor that will allow you to use the 30 to 40 pound barbecue tanks for the smaller camp lanterns and stoves. They are reasonably easy to have refilled and transport but you still should keep them out of the sun and heat for safety.

Kerosene and gasoline fueled devices are a little messier and smellier to keep and use. However, non-pressurized kerosene lanterns are very simple devices with fewer parts to get fouled up and if needed some of them can be improvised. Some kerosene and coal oil lamps can also burn cooking oils, though olive oil is generally the best.

Personally, I prefer to use Coleman dual fuel model products since I can use both the Coleman white gas and regular unleaded gasoline. I keep gasoline on hand to run my chainsaw and to keep on hand for a reserve motor fuel supply so having it available for the camp stove and lanterns is a plus. Also, gasoline is more available here compared with propane bottles (more gas stations than Wal-Marts and propane company offices) and is cheaper per sales unit.

You might want to limit your fuel storage to firewood, kerosene/oil lamp fuel and gasoline (for a portable cook stove, lanterns and your pickup) or better yet, firewood and gasoline with candles and batteries for backup lighting sources. Candles store well as long as they don't get too hot and won't evaporate. Rechargeable batteries will allow you to save some money on powering lighting too without the worry of not having them available when you need them.


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## MountainRonda (May 18, 2006)

Dear Hippiehill,
I can give you some handwashing laundry tips from my experience, if you'd like. The most important piece of equipment I have is a handcrank wringer that clips onto the edge of my tub. With it you can get almost all the dirty, soapy water out before the rinse, which saves water and makes the clothes come out as clean as any washing machine. Just twisting by hand won't do it. A wringer will cost some money but I consider it an investment that gives me time at home instead of at the dreaded laundromat.
You can set up your washing stuff and clothesline in a place out of the rain. Mine is under my house (which is built on a hillside) so I can look out at the view while I'm working. I actually enjoy doing laundry...imagine that!
Oh, .. I also have my bathtub water drain down into the laundy tub.
Have a happy time,,,,,,,,,, From another single-lady homesteader, Bev


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

THey still make alarm clocks that wind up. 

I bet you could trade your electric sewing machine for a treadle machine. 

Have you tried glucosimine chondroitin for your knee? I take Osteo Biflex and it really helps.

Can you rig a rainwater barrel higher than your hand pump and then run a pipe to the pump? Free water that gets heated by the sun.

Have you considered drying or canning fruits and veggies instead of freezing?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

For your critters drinking water: does your house have gutters? You could put a childs swimming pool under the downspout. Or a 55 gallon barrel, or whatever.


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## farmhome5 (Dec 20, 2005)

We use 55 gallon barrels under our downspouts for our chickens and turkeys. I pm'd you about free ones available in our area.


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

We are off grid in a 5th wheel. We have all the electricity we need, from a 5000 watt gas generator. I run a propane frig and stove and heat, but the gen runs washing machine, sattelite tv, sattelite internet, bread machine, well pump, hair dryer, you-name-it. 
I run the gen 4 hours per night, sometimes more, and during that time I do wash, watch tv, make bread, etc. All while charging the four 6 volt deep cell batteries. Then I have electricity during the night and rest of the day for lights, etc from a 2000 watt inverter and the batteries.

We use about 75-80 gallons of gas per month.
You could run a generator for an hour per day and get way more electricity into batteries than from solar, for alot less up-front investment than solar.
An hour a day, you could sew, do wash, watch tv, etc. all while dumping elec into batteries for the rest of the day, and use about 20 gallons a month, or about $50. Put another 40-50 per month away to pay for a new generator in a couple of years. The one we are using right now has lasted us way over a year, and still going strong. Change oil and filter regularly!! Your gen would last you way longer if only running it an hour per day....

Meanwhile, for the future, we have a slow speed diesel generator to rebuild and use when this gen goes bye bye....and it will run on used cooking oil!
For heat, you may be able to find a waste oil heater, used. It can provide you with heat and hot water for free....or you can make one - and keep it out of the house, in a cinder-block enclosure, for safety.
Use duct-work to get the heat into the house.


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