# Your Financial Survival - Business vs. Welfare



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I went into town to check the PO box and I had two checks in there. (Go team!) I drove over to the bank to cash them with visions of a box of donuts dancing in my head.

The bank teller stopped me when she pointed out one of those checks was made out to Possum Creek Knifeworks instead of Ernie. She couldn't cash it. I need a business account to cash business checks.

No problem, says I. Let's open one. So the banker comes over and asks to see my paperwork. What paperwork? The Federal business application, the state business application, the LLC document, and the county business application. 

I may have looked a little stunned at this point. She explained if I didn't have it then I can't open the business account, but she has a lawyer friend who will only charge me $300 to fill out all the paperwork for me. 

By this point, my blood pressure is rising. I asked why it should cost me $300 to start a business. She explains that no, the $300 is just for the lawyer. There's also federal, state, and county business fees to be paid. I didn't ask how much those were and I guess from the look on my face she knew I wasn't going to go through with this so she wished me luck and hurried away.

So in order to cash checks for my business I have to pay an extortionate amount of money, fill out a barrage of paperwork, subject myself to federal, state, and county scrutiny, and open myself up to the greedy tax hands of all of the above. 

As an ALTERNATIVE, I could go down to the county human services department, stand in line for a little while and then tell them that I have no income (possibly because it's too difficult to cash a check) and they'll fill out some forms FOR ME and then I'll get paid a big fat check twice a month. Oh wait ... I don't even have to leave the house. I just found a website where I can apply for government benefits ONLINE. 

When you examine the situation in this light, is it difficult to understand why we're in the financial shape we're in?


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## jlrbhjmnc (May 2, 2010)

Yep. LLC tax is $200 per year here in NC. Every. single. year. AFTER you pay the attorney and fees to set it up in the first place. They don't call it a tax, of course. Another "fee."


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

For fun I looked into what it might take to start a business. Did you know OSHA rules apply even if you're the only employee and your place of business is a room in your basement? 

I have the feeling that going down this legal rabbit hole ends up with me angry enough to drive back to Bowling Green to find the one-legged man and offer to drive him to DC.


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## farmwife (Jan 6, 2006)

One Word GREED!!! 

The Bankers and Lawyers in together! 

Oh, anyone every look at this! For Earned Income Credit, if you make between 12,000-21,000 it is the same amount. For 3 kids it is $5,666.00. Than it starts dropping below 12,000. I thought what if you make less you get more. Than I figured it out it is probably because below 12,000 you can get a small job plus get welfare. 

Am I right? If you make over 21,000 it drops lower too! We work around here so I don't know the loop holes. I just started being noisy to see and I am thinking this is probably what it is. 

I can just get so mad these days anywhere I turn. Everyone wants money! Now Drudge report says 80% Americans want raised taxes! 

Yea Right!

I would be made about the check!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Ernie, The issue is the name. Not that is a business check.

The easiest way to avoid it in the future just have people send you a check in your name. The Federal gov. only cares that you pay the tax.

Next if you want to use the name. You have to find out how to register a fictitious name.. IE Ernie the Doomer doing business as (Possum Creek Knifeworks) You don't need an attorney. Generally it's just forms from the state. the only fee should be the cost of the search. Which is a few bucks.

Just google "Fictitious name registration" and your state.

The banks want the paperwork so you don't open an account for AT&T and start cashing and writing checks. It's not a big conspiracy.


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## forfreedom (Dec 3, 2008)

Ernie, you can file a DBA (doing business as) as an individual, so it will be Ernie SoAndSo DBA Possum Creek Knifeworks. I think it's pretty cheap, and you don't need a lawyer for that. The other requirement, if I remember correctly is to run an ad in paper stating your intent to DBA, but that varies by state. DBA can be filed online and you will have "papers" within a few days.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

File the DBA It cost me $7 in TX a few years back

Google 'Fictitious name registration'


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Heck, take CASH and don't worry about it !

This time carry it to a friend that's in business, cash it and let him deposit it for you- hmmm, might work out several times if he's a good friend.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

You mean all those small business people that work their hiney off and go belly up may not be that bad of person after all. (Not directed at you ) I just hear that a lot.
But they are /may be right. if you use your name you may be home free.

My business is 
My name
TNWoodwright

Yours would be
Ernie ****

Mountain knife builder/worker or what they call a knife person 

But then again if you live in Atlanta area and want to set up a lemonade stand to go to camp you may be in all kind of trouble fro not having a business license a food license , approved kitchen for making lemonade and a hundred other ridiculous things.

And if they mess with* you like they did me the TN VEC electric company will come out and charge you 30% more for electric in the shed behind your house for building the knives there.
Don't forget insurance and CPA and And and ANd


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Endorse the check as it is wrote on the back under that sign your name present it to the teller . Thus it would become a two party check guaranteeing payment by you .:grumble:

Works at my bank . If they gave me grief over that they could count my five bucks out and close my acct . But i have a business actt with no static involved of any sort :icecream::icecream:

Need a checking acct in Tn ???


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

forfreedom said:


> Ernie, you can file a DBA (doing business as) as an individual, so it will be Ernie SoAndSo DBA Possum Creek Knifeworks. I think it's pretty cheap, and you don't need a lawyer for that. The other requirement, if I remember correctly is to run an ad in paper stating your intent to DBA, but that varies by state. DBA can be filed online and you will have "papers" within a few days.


This is precisely the answer for you. In my county, it costs around $40 to file it and then you also have to register to collect sales tax from your customers. In NY, we have to submit sales tax collected quarterly. It is very easy to do and you can file your business income on schedule C or C-EZ. I have a DBA, an LLC and an S Corp. The DBA is the easiest but it carries the highest risk. With your handmade knives, though... It shouldn't be a problem.


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

Ernie, In another life, my business was registered in my name, and I got a "tax id" (your social +a few numbers from the state), and it was free. Just had to pay taxes quarterly.That was in New Jersey. Also, I told my bank that legally i was "Princeton plantscaping" too, and they accepted that w no fees. Most people wrote checks in my name even tho they knew I was considered a legal business. I was a "sole proprietor". ldc


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Theres a reason why every lawyer I know has heard me say, again and again, remember when the revolution comes lawyers will be first up against the wall! Its in your interest to make sure it doesn't happen!
Cheers,
Dutch


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

I put my farm name on my checks. When I get a check made out to that name I just deposit it. Have been hassled a couple times but when I point to the farm name on my checks, they drop it.

Get a couple hundred checks made by one of the private check companies (cheap) and see if it flies.

Kathie


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There's a bunch of solutions to the problem, some of them fairly easy ... but I thought it was a great time to point out the bureaucracy involvement in what should be a non-issue.


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

You can try to deposit it into the ATM and see what happens. I used to see a lot of people depositing business checks that slipped through the cracks for years depositing them that way.

And there are much cheaper ways around it. Granted, each FI has its own rules, but where I am at they just require a state UBI number which cost me about $25 and I could apply for it online. 

The reason why you are not SUPPOSED to cash business checks off a personal account is that the regulations for business and personal accounts are different so it is technically not legal for a FI to cash one on the other, or it makes them out of compliance. Like I said though, lots of people slip thru the cracks


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

You'll need a tax ID # for the business to open an account. More .gov for you to navigate.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Here, I've cashed checks written out to our Farm, and never had an issue of any sorts.

If they did tell me I needed a business licenses or account, I would just make sure my customers wrote the check out to me, with a personal name. Easier and less hassle.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

Ernie said:


> but I thought it was a great time to point out the bureaucracy involvement in what should be a non-issue.


Yep, and some large percentage (can't remember right now) of jobs are created by the small businesses, yet instead of incentivising entrepreneur efforts we punish them by throwing up all kinds of hurdles.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

any time you deal with forming a "group", "business", "farm"....you uncover enough laws and regulations to make your head ache. (and your wallet mighty thin) Just ridiculous. 

and yes..this post has absolutely no value except to agree with "what a crock".


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Ah yes, the dba.

From now on, have all make checks out to 'You'.

DBA may very likely make you liable to collect state sales tax, even for items you don't sell in state.

Oh, and change banks to a Credit Union instead, and soon.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

This is the amount of hassle required to _cash a check._ What if I wanted to hire an employee?


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Ernie said:


> This is the amount of hassle required to _cash a check._ What if I wanted to hire an employee?


 Do what I do and go through a temp agency. It's not worth the hassle otherwise. Also, if you start a real legit business, with full credentials and all the fixins be ready to do your taxes every 3 months. You have to file quarterly.


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## jlrbhjmnc (May 2, 2010)

Ernie said:


> This is the amount of hassle required to _cash a check._ What if I wanted to hire an employee?


Eeek!! :runforhills: AND eep:

I have done back office and payroll for a number of small businesses (3 to 30 employees, more or less). It is expensive and there is SO much regulation. Employers pay $1.25 to $1.33 in taxes and mandated insurance for every dollar they pay an employee. And this was in a right to work state!

The government should NOT be this involved in our lives.

ETA - rearranged sentences for clarity


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

This has been rather a teaching opportunity.

My ultimate decision has been to pack up and move my business to Galt's Gulch.


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

can you have people write checks to 
Ernie DBA Possum Creek Knifeworks
or 
Ernie, c/o Possum Creek Knifeworks??


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Eventually, bureaucracy will drive men and women of conscience completely out of the system, or convert them to their moral death.
If you are having issues navigating their hoops and hurdles, count it a victory that you still have some spark of virtue, and conduct yourself thereafter accordingly.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

beaglebiz said:


> can you have people write checks to
> Ernie DBA Possum Creek Knifeworks
> or
> Ernie, c/o Possum Creek Knifeworks??


Yeah, that's easy enough. Or just to ME and leave Possum Creek Knifeworks out of it. As a solution that works fine.

But the purpose was to illustrate one of the major hurdles to small business. So what happens when all the small businesses shrink down to this sort of scale? When they all go off the radar?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

American business has been mired in politics for, well, centuries......and,
"Nothing in politics happens by accident. If it happens, it was planned that way". FDR


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> This has been rather a teaching opportunity.
> 
> My ultimate decision has been to pack up and move my business to Galt's Gulch.


If I knew where that was, I'd have already moved. PM me your new address... neighbor.


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## tickranch (Jan 6, 2007)

Gabriel said:


> If I knew where that was, I'd have already moved. PM me your new address... neighbor.




I think it's somewhere in the mountains in Montana with some guy who likes boobies.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Ernie said:


> This has been rather a teaching opportunity.
> 
> My ultimate decision has been to pack up and move my business to Galt's Gulch.


Welcome hope my sawmill don't bother you been moving that direction a while almost there . Just need to drop off the rest of the way off the radar :bow: :icecream:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

A knife shop and a sawmill have good synergy. Now if we can just find us someone who makes clothing.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

tickranch said:


> I think it's somewhere in the mountains in Montana with some guy who likes boobies.


I thought they lived in the Galapagos...


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Ernie said:


> I went into town to check the PO box and I had two checks in there. (Go team!) I drove over to the bank to cash them with visions of a box of donuts dancing in my head.
> 
> The bank teller stopped me when she pointed out one of those checks was made out to Possum Creek Knifeworks instead of Ernie. She couldn't cash it. I need a business account to cash business checks.
> 
> ...


Always I sign my questionable checks with MY NAME,d.b.a. NAME OF QUESTIONABLE BUSINESS
I have never had anybody check for an actual d.b.a. certificate. If I have more than one check I sometimes deposit them in the "night drop".

Your situation is very "lawyer favorable", might even have a kickback provision. Who knows?


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## julieq (Oct 12, 2008)

Here in Idaho we did our LLC online for 100.00 in 2006. No yearly charge for an LLC, but we have to file a yearly report, again online. Got the EIN number free online. Then got a State sales tax license online, no charge. Our bank was happy to set us up with a business checking and savings account, although we had to actually go there to do that!


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

stanb999 said:


> Ernie, The issue is the name. Not that is a business check.
> 
> The easiest way to avoid it in the future just have people send you a check in your name. The Federal gov. only cares that you pay the tax.
> 
> ...




Yep..this. 
I went to the courthouse and filled out a quickie little form and signed it in front of a bank notary for free. Walked back across the street and payed a filing fee of a buck or two and I can now do business as my business name. I signed an "Assumed Name' form for doing business as......
I took that paper to my bank and opened a free business account with free checking. I can get checks made out to my business name and cash them and everything. 
It took about an hour from start to finish and that includes drive time to the county seat and back.
And I opened a Paypal account that feeds to and from my business account etc..
I keep track of my receipts and mileage and income etc.. for the taxman.
No sweat at all.. none. Not even a little bit.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

BTDT, for many years was self employed with employees. With taxes and insurances (work comp, unemployment) each buck of payroll was about $1.50 and that was some time ago. Quarterly reports, monthly deposits, audits, reports, ah yes the fun. Then throw in all the fights with dh, his conscience is different than mine and he has a lot less patience. Some weeks it was an easy 30 hours in the office and I still had my regular job, chores and a house. Self employment was an experience.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Didn't read every post, but we only had to pay about $7 at the local tax office to file a DBA. I don't even recall if we had to take the DBA form to the bank to open an account (maybe we did, I just don't recall, but I know we sure as HECK didn't have to have all THAT gobbledygook paperwork) but we've had a business account (trucking business) at the bank for several years now. 

Maybe these things vary from state to state?


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> For fun I looked into what it might take to start a business. Did you know OSHA rules apply even if you're the only employee and your place of business is a room in your basement?


So you would make yourself work in a small room in your basement? What kind of a man are you? You are heartless.



Ernie said:


> This is the amount of hassle required to _cash a check._ What if I wanted to hire an employee?


Well. For one thing you couldn't insist he work in your basement. He'd need a desk, a nice soft chair, perhaps a picture window and a climate controlled environment. You can't even hire a Gerbil to run a wheel for you without the proper licenses and a written schedule for time off.



Ernie said:


> This has been rather a teaching opportunity.
> 
> My ultimate decision has been to pack up and move my business to Galt's Gulch.


From Galt's bad dream, I take it.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ernie said:


> The bank teller stopped me when she pointed out one of those checks was made out to Possum Creek Knifeworks instead of Ernie. She couldn't cash it. I need a business account to cash business checks.
> 
> No problem, says I. Let's open one. So the banker comes over and asks to see my paperwork. What paperwork? The Federal business application, the state business application, the LLC document, and the county business application.
> 
> I may have looked a little stunned at this point. She explained if I didn't have it then I can't open the business account, but she has a lawyer friend who will only charge me $300 to fill out all the paperwork for me.


I own and operate several businesses. It really is not that difficult to get the paperwork together and open a bank account.

No real need to form an LLC either. Put all your possessions such as your house and land in your wife's name.

Of course, the alternative to alligning yourself with government is to accept cash only, unless you want to take the easy way out and apply for welfare. But then you are messing with that pesky government thing again. :hrm:




> When you examine the situation in this light, is it difficult to understand why we're in the financial shape we're in?


Nonsense. That has NOTHING to do with the requirement of paperwork to operate a business.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Dutchie said:


> I own and operate several businesses. It really is not that difficult to get the paperwork together and open a bank account.
> 
> No real need to form an LLC either. Put all your possessions such as your house and land in your wife's name.
> 
> ...


Some get it. Some don't seem to.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Justin Thyme said:


> Some get it. Some don't seem to.


Get yourself a sawmill or junkyard you'll get it fast  Better put in a big parking lot and mailbox :cowboy:


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Get yourself a sawmill or junkyard you'll get it fast  Better put in a big parking lot and mailbox :cowboy:


Can I use a burn-can for the incoming mail?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

For me, I had to go to the courthouse, and file an DBA affidavit (doing business as)... the bank wouldn't cash my business income checks (with my business name on them)... until I filed the DBA papers and brought them a copy. Now I sign my business name and real name on each check.

I've cashed small checks before without problems... when they started getting real large, reckon the bank wanted to cover itself (with the IRS, Homeland Security, etc.).


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Some get it. Some don't seem to.


Explain it to me then.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I've owned several businesses in my life and always did everything you're "supposed" to do. It was certainly doable, but not reasonable. Not many people are willing to put up with all that nonsense to start/run a business. That leaves many people choosing to be less productive, meaning they pay less taxes and may even be a drain on resources. Others choose to be productive under the table, and thus pay no income taxes. Without all the pain-in-the-butt stuff you have to do to start and run a business, more people would do it and our country would probably be more prosperous. I know the government was the number one reason for me bailing out of the small business world.

As for the bank, my favorite solution is a friendly teller. She cashes any check I bring her, even those written to my great great grandfather who died in the 1940s and had a different last name than mine. Once it gets past the teller, it's pretty rare that a human ever looks at the check again.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

My sentiments, _exactly_, Ryan.


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

Ernie;

I closed my LLC because I was unable to handle the deluge of taxes, forms and license fee's required by the state. I made NO money, in fact I lost money - and could see clearly that this was not the way to go for me.
I believe what you are saying is true - those that won't jump through the hoops either work a job for the Man, where they have no independance, or don't work at all, instead having their lifestyles paid for by you and me.
The incentives are there to be taken care of by the 'state', no doubt about it.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Dutchie said:


> Explain it to me then.


It's a question of government intrusion into our lives. The free hand that government considers itself entitled to wield, on every level, in controlling such aspects of our lives as how we earn our livelihoods, as in this thread.

All Ernie wanted to do was to cash a check he received for a product he made with his own hands.

[Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
_but I thought it was a great time to point out the bureaucracy involvement in what should be a non-issue._]

Your post, to which I responded seemed to imply (explicitly stated, in fact) that dealing with the bureaucracy isn't all that much trouble. You (seem to) have simply accepted that it is the gov'mints right to intrude into what you do and create. What for some artisans and would-be entrepreneurs are insurmountable hurdles of paperwork and concomitant unaffordable fees just to work for one self and earn a living doing so.

It's not that it may not be too much trouble. It is that it exists at all.

So what I was saying that you didn't seem to get was that there are folks who find all that paperwork, etc, a burden better left uncarried. That government is overstepping its authority.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

IF I knuckle down and work hard, and manage to sell every knife I make, then I can make approximately $40 per day.

If the mortgage was paid off then that is enough to keep the lights on, buy some toilet paper, and keep me in seeds each year while the farm keeps us fed.

But look at the obstacles involved in even scratching out THAT small existence.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Dutchie said:


> Explain it to me then.


*Here's some more....*



ryanthomas said:


> I've owned several businesses in my life and always did everything you're "supposed" to do. It was certainly doable, but not reasonable. Not many people are willing to put up with all that nonsense to start/run a business. That leaves many people choosing to be less productive, meaning they pay less taxes and may even be a drain on resources. Others choose to be productive under the table, and thus pay no income taxes. Without all the pain-in-the-butt stuff you have to do to start and run a business, more people would do it and our country would probably be more prosperous. I know the government was the number one reason for me bailing out of the small business world.
> 
> As for the bank, my favorite solution is a friendly teller. She cashes any check I bring her, even those written to my great great grandfather who died in the 1940s and had a different last name than mine. Once it gets past the teller, it's pretty rare that a human ever looks at the check again.





Ohiogal said:


> Ernie;
> 
> I closed my LLC because I was unable to handle the deluge of taxes, forms and license fee's required by the state. I made NO money, in fact I lost money - and could see clearly that this was not the way to go for me.
> I believe what you are saying is true - those that won't jump through the hoops either work a job for the Man, where they have no independance, or don't work at all, instead having their lifestyles paid for by you and me.
> The incentives are there to be taken care of by the 'state', no doubt about it.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

forfreedom said:


> Ernie, you can file a DBA (doing business as) as an individual, so it will be Ernie SoAndSo DBA Possum Creek Knifeworks. I think it's pretty cheap, and you don't need a lawyer for that. The other requirement, if I remember correctly is to run an ad in paper stating your intent to DBA, but that varies by state. DBA can be filed online and you will have "papers" within a few days.


At least in Texas the above is all we need. I think the filing fee is something like $10.00 and is done at the county clerk's office. It is true that a bank won't open a business acount under that name, but with a dba you can open another personal account with Ernie xxxx DBA xxxx knifeworks. If your bank won't cooperate, then move to community based bank rather than a national one.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> *Here's some more....*


Here is what I am thinking. If the paperwork of being self employed is overwhelming you aren't doing it right. Because it really isn't such a big deal. 

Furthermore, if one is so agaimst banks one should not accept check as those are bank documents and should run the business purely on a cash/barter system. 

Lastly, to state that the choice is running a business or going on welfare is a bit dramatic.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Dutchie said:


> Here is what I am thinking. If the paperwork of being self employed is overwhelming you aren't doing it right. Because it really isn't such a big deal.


Maybe not, for someone who is naturally good at paperwork. It still takes time away from productivity though. 



Dutchie said:


> Furthermore, if one is so agaimst banks one should not accept check as those are bank documents and should run the business purely on a cash/barter system.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? I think he made it clear that it was the _government imposed_ paperwork/fees that were the problem. 



Dutchie said:


> Lastly, to state that the choice is running a business or going on welfare is a bit dramatic.


Leaving off the third choice that was listed is overly dramatic also, don't you think?


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

So you want to do it or find a way around it? Does the lawyer have to be from your state? 

I had no idea it was like that. That is so wrong!


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Over the yrs I've owned and have been part owner/operator of all sorts of small businesses. To suggest that operating a business as a business in a capitalist society is "why we are in the shape we are in" is, pardon me, but silly.



> Not many people are willing to put up with all that nonsense to start/run a business. That leaves many people choosing to be less productive, meaning they pay less taxes and may even be a drain on resources


If you don't have the patience or smarts to do these simple steps to run a business, then you will do far better being someone's employee. This is not a big deal. Getting into bed with the government while doing business is they way it's done.... sorry. 

You have MANY options to doing this song and dance with the government paper pushers. You can make your widgets, and sell them over a table at a flea market. You can sell them online on Ebay and other sites. You can sell your hand made widgets to a consignment shop (who is doing better than you because they took the time and energy to do said paperwork). You can sell your stuff any old way you please, just don't use a "company name" and take cash and money orders and checks made out to you personally. There are 100 ways to dodge the system, but when you start cranking out a good number of widgets this life on the run style of selling is going to get tough, and you'll miss out on all the benefits of having a proper business. (tax exemptions is one of them)

I've done business all sorts of ways. Once you learn how it's not a big deal. If bookkeeping isnt your thing (it sure aint my thing) you hire (or shanghai a family member into it) a bookkeeper. When I was opeating a screen printing business, I had no time to be dealing with bookkeeping. The bookkeeper was a cheap expense.

If all you can produce is $40 a day worth of widgets, you're best off to just operate outside the system and use Ebay, flea markets, craft shows, and art shows as a way to sell your stuff. Quite a few of those require you at least show a tax number. Getting a tax number for a general resale operation is easy. if all you are selling is $40 a day in goods, the paperwork is easy. But for that low of a production I'd avoid it all and sell outside the loop.

Not to say you are in any way not good at making stuff. One artist can only make so many works to sell, so your trade is self limiting unless you have a shop where 5 people are mass producing something like, printed shirts and hats. You hand make knives, so you are more of an artist than a business. 

You can run a $40 a day "business" comfortably under the radar. Just don't call it one and don't use a business like name. IN the long run, you'll be more flexable and have more advantages as a legit business.

If it was me, I'd sell them online through a site like Ebay because you just don't produce enough of them to warrant the expense of doing it "right" unless you plan on expanding.
Hiding in Ebay's shadow is easy.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> All Ernie wanted to do was to cash a check he received for a product he made with his own hands.


Not quite. Ernie wanted to cash a check that was not made out to him and was made out to a business he could not prove was his.

I sure don't want banks letting other people cash checks that have been made payable to me or my business just because those people have taken possession of it.

Setting up a small business is simple if you use your own name and SSN. If you want to pretend to be someone else, then yes, you have a few more steps.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Clearly we are seeing from the opinions who is on "Team Tyranny" and who is on "Team Freedom".


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Clearly we are seeing from the opinions who is on "Team Tyranny" and who is on "Team Freedom".


Woo Hoo!!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Let me go a bit further here ...

In the morass of laws, restrictions, and bureaucracy ... some people get lost and some people don't even bother to try.

I know of one lady in our area who sells food and has made it her business to go about using the laws and restrictions to SHUT DOWN all of her competitors. If she hears you sold a chicken then she'll call the county health inspector. Set up a farm stand? She'll call the county zoning board. Meanwhile her own farm business is 100% legit according to the government.

Team Tyranny.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Clearly we are seeing from the opinions who is on "Team Tyranny" and who is on "Team Freedom".


*puffs chest*

Yeah, and _our_ team is gunna eat _pie_, after.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ernie said:


> IF I knuckle down and work hard, and manage to sell every knife I make, then I can make approximately $40 per day.
> 
> If the mortgage was paid off then that is enough to keep the lights on, buy some toilet paper, and keep me in seeds each year while the farm keeps us fed.
> 
> But look at the obstacles involved in even scratching out THAT small existence.


$40 a day is not enough. Are you not charging enough?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Justin Thyme said:


> Can I use a burn-can for the incoming mail?


Or forward it to me and i'll put it in mine .:teehee: When i see the Governor stacking planks i'll be glad to give him some coin .:grumble:

What some are missing if things keep going one day your neighbor is going to give you a sack of tomatoes , then the Fruit Cops are going to want proof of where they grew and tax on them too . Can't be shorting the commerce system by beating the Gov out of fees you know . As in you got a permit to run a charity :grumble:


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> All Ernie wanted to do was to cash a check he received for a product he made with his own hands.


A check that was not made out to him and he had no proof that the business whose name the check was made out to is owned by him. THAT is the reason why the bank wants him to register the business name. So he can not cash a check that is made out to MY company.




> So what I was saying that you didn't seem to get was that there are folks who find all that paperwork, etc, a burden better left uncarried. That government is overstepping its authority.


I suppose it depends on what state you live in. I doubt I would have been happy running these businesses in MA. Here in OK the burdens are minimal. 

I stand by the fact that SOME control is needed to protect society as a whole from fraud; i.e., you not being able to cash a check made out to me.

This is part of living in a civilized society. If that is undesirable there are alternatives. But that includes NOT using any of that society's means such as checks or banks. Pretty simple.

BTW ... if running your own business was easy everybody would be doing it! :thumb:


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ernie said:


> Let me go a bit further here ...
> 
> In the morass of laws, restrictions, and bureaucracy ... some people get lost and some people don't even bother to try.
> 
> .


Then those people are not committed or cut out to be in business. Not everybody is.



> I know of one lady in our area who sells food and has made it her business to go about using the laws and restrictions to SHUT DOWN all of her competitors. If she hears you sold a chicken then she'll call the county health inspector. Set up a farm stand? She'll call the county zoning board. Meanwhile her own farm business is 100% legit according to the government.


While I am not fond of tattletales, I do appreciate a MINIMUM of oversight to ensure that the chicken sold does not carry botulism.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Dutchie said:


> A check that was not made out to him and he had no proof that the business whose name the check was made out to is owned by him. THAT is the reason why the bank wants him to register the business name. So he can not cash a check that is made out to MY company.
> 
> *It was made out to him, just his knife business name. The bank knew it was his, That's not the point.*
> 
> ...


If work were easy everybody'd be doing it!


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> If work were easy everybody'd be doing it!


Oh please. The subject here is running your own business. Let's not open THAT can of worms. It is off topic.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Let me get this right, you would prefer a banking/business system where anyone could take a check and cash it based solely on the idea that if it is in their possession, it must be their check?

If it were that easy, everyone would be robbing mailboxes for checks.

If your proper given name is not on a check, you have to prove that it's your check. if it has a business name on the check you have to prove it's you business.

I really don't see the problem here. If you didn't have to do this and back it up with proof/documentation then personal/business banking would be so unreliable and crooked, nobody could use it.

Even a simple board game has rules. I agree, there are lots of pointless fees and paperwork, no argument on that one.
But there does have to be some documentation chain to properly and securely run a bank and a business.

Team freedom sounds like team Anarchy.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

Ernie said:


> This is the amount of hassle required to _cash a check._ What if I wanted to hire an employee?


I think you're making a mountain out of nothing here. I agree that we are swimming in bureaucracy, but this isn't a very good example of that. The only reason you had trouble cashing the check is that the business name wasn't on your account at the bank. It cost me $10 to get a fictitious business license from the state of Texas. Good for 10 years from date of issue, and guarantees that no one else can use our farm name for their business. At $1 a year, it's a bargain.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Finally some voices of reason!


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

A "fictitious" name? That doesn't sound legal at all. And that's "reason?"


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

It cost me $30 to get a business license from the county then I opened my business account...no problem. Ernie, that sounds a little complicated just for a business account.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

A fictitious name is usually a DBA.

Having run two different businesses, I said for years that it is easier to be dishonest than honest. My accountant agrees with me and shakes her head when I declare egg money. If you really run a business there is a lot of paperwork. The SBA helps people with that stuff so it must not just be a snap the fingers type of deal. Honesty in general has gone out the window so it is legislated which really doesn't seem to work well. The number of people that I have dealt with that only wanted cash for payment far outweigh the ones who were legit.

Technically the IRS can tax barter so really, there is no legit way around paperwork.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

kirkmcquest said:


> It cost me $30 to get a business license from the county then I opened my business account...no problem. Ernie, that sounds a little complicated just for a business account.


I think Ernie's point was: Why should he have to jump through any hoops at all to set up his business account? 
Because the state has a vested interest (collecting fees) in his registering his business.(?)


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2011)

Don't forget, Ernie lives in Illinois, the home of Obama, Blagovitch, Rahm Emmanuel, the Daley's, Capone. Of course anything to do with government is going to be overly expensive and unnecessarily complicated.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

In addition, it's not like I took this check to a bank that doesn't know me. The teller knows me. The bank manager who came out to explain the rules knows me. They all know me. Yet they are constrained by the government in their behavior.

The process described to me by the bank manager in no way resembles the simplistic set up some of you tell about.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> In addition, it's not like I took this check to a bank that doesn't know me. The teller knows me. The bank manager who came out to explain the rules knows me. They all know me. Yet they are constrained by the government in their behavior.
> 
> The process described to me by the bank manager in no way resembles the simplistic set up some of you tell about.


In much the same way banks were forced to lend money on what they knew were/would be bad loans. It is this gov't interference in business activities that sets the nation up for failure.


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Ernie, just give it up, too much of a hassle... Get back in the mainstream and pull the levers like everyone else and it will all go away... Just don't "think" about it...

Your eyes are getting very heavy and you are drifting back into the artificial reality that's welcoming you back... LOL


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Ernie said:


> In addition, it's not like I took this check to a bank that doesn't know me. The teller knows me. The bank manager who came out to explain the rules knows me. They all know me. Yet they are constrained by the government in their behavior.
> 
> The process described to me by the bank manager in no way resembles the simplistic set up some of you tell about.


Sort of makes one wonder if the Government and the Banking industry are one and the same.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> IF I knuckle down and work hard, and manage to sell every knife I make, then I can make approximately $40 per day.
> 
> If the mortgage was paid off then that is enough to keep the lights on, buy some toilet paper, and keep me in seeds each year while the farm keeps us fed.
> 
> But look at the obstacles involved in even scratching out THAT small existence.


Some hobbies can't be parlayed into successful businesses. The profit margin simply isn't high enough to make it worthwhile once your time, raw materials and the cost of doing business all are factored in. This is not your fault or the government's; it's simply the way things are. 

I think this is a mistake a lot of fledgling entrepreneurs make. They start a business because it gives them the opportunity to do something they love all day long, without first conducting a feasibility study to determine whether there's a market for their product and whether they can make enough to earn a living. Say you're running a shop and your mark-up is 15 percent ... you need to sell $1,000 of product per day to earn $150, and out of that, you have to pay rent, utilities, insurance, upkeep on the facility, etc. It's no wonder so many small businesses fold rather quickly! 

Looking on the bright side, Ernie, it appears you are able to make a little cash on the side from your hobby. That's a good thing! Del Gue offered some excellent suggestions for small-scale sales venues. Perhaps you can develop multiple income streams which, added together, generate enough to support your family. Your knife-making could be a part of that. Good luck!


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Justin Thyme said:


> A "fictitious" name? That doesn't sound legal at all. And that's "reason?"


"Possum creek knifeworks" is a fictitious name. That's what we call a name of a business.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Justin Thyme said:


> I think Ernie's point was: Why should he have to jump through any hoops at all to set up his business account?
> Because the state has a vested interest (collecting fees) in his registering his business.(?)


No, because he has to have the name registered as his DBA and the bank has to verify it's his DBA. It has nothing to do with the states interest in fleecing you out of 10 bucks.
That's just a perk for the state. It could be free and he's still have the same hoops to jump through..


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Ernie said:


> In addition, it's not like I took this check to a bank that doesn't know me. The teller knows me. The bank manager who came out to explain the rules knows me. They all know me. Yet they are constrained by the government in their behavior.
> 
> The process described to me by the bank manager in no way resembles the simplistic set up some of you tell about.


No they are constrained by banking regulations that we have had around for 100 years.
Ok maybe not that long but you get the idea. A long time.

Nobody said it was easy. We said it isn't a big deal or very complicated. Everyone and their mom has an LLC at some point if they are trying to start a business. You just learn about it and do it. Nothing is ever "simple".


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Justin Thyme said:


> It is this gov't interference in business activities that sets the nation up for failure.


mmmm no, it's this government's getting rid of the regulators and passing the GrammâLeachâBliley Act of 99 thus allowing banks to gamble with their depositor's money (AGAIN) that set us up for failure. The lack of regulations ruined us, not having too many.

Not all people are as honest as you and I, they have to be regulated or oops... hello 1929.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I believe the acceptance of "the way things are" define your character.

So y'all will excuse me if I find another way that doesn't leave me a slave to the system.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

No one suggested you become the systems slave.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

I have a solution for you Ernie. Accept as payment 1 silver dollar per blade. Vary price accordingly. You won't need a bank, and you won't need to do taxes unless you make more than 600 dollars.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Tyranny and liberty both rather seem to be where you find them.

I did "business" for years, with a business name checking account, the whole works, cashing and depositing checks made out to the business name, etc. 
I never signed anything, applied for anything, filed anything..... nor was I remotely invited to....
I kept immaculate records, filed and reported like a good, oblivious chap, paid what I thought I owed, etc. Ran hundreds of thousands through a couple bank accounts.
No questions as to whose checks I was cashing. No hassles about business name, permits, licenses, etc.
No banks bellied up in my behalf.
No depressions took off like a boulder running downhill.
My family ate well.
The bank folk were friendly and helpful.

What gives ?


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Ernie, I agree that you shouldn't have to pay anything to anyone to open a business account. I also think that there is something wrong with your bank. Call another bank, ask them what you need to open a business account.

I literally needed only a business license from the county. Something is wrong with your bank...dig around, there are hoops to jump through ( and I agree those should not exist ) but it should not be as hard as they are telling you.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Del Gue said:


> If you don't have the patience or smarts to do these simple steps to run a business, then you will do far better being someone's employee.


I sold two of my businesses in the high six figures after less than three years building them. I had plenty of patience and smarts to jump through the hoops. What I didn't have was the idiotic mentality to waste a significant percentage of my time with completely unproductive hoop-jumping. Even those who are willing to waste that time to run businesses could be much more productive if they didn't have to do it. And then they would pay more taxes. I'm not completely against all regulation or even DBAs, but the bureaucratic mess is out of control.



> This is not a big deal. Getting into bed with the government while doing business is they way it's done.... sorry.


You're right, it is the way it's done. That doesn't make it right. It's outrageous that it's so ingrained in our system now.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

......and it's mind-boggling, the majority of mindless drones who follow submissively, without a thought.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

edcopp said:


> Sort of makes one wonder if the Government and the Banking industry are one and the same.


If they were the government would be in the black. Or all the banks would be looted by now.


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

The banks have been looted already... There is no real wealth only debt... Only trillions of phony money. We are not on a gold standard... Only the full faith and credit of the united states... Only faith to depend on is faith in God not government, credit is only slavery in a better suit...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I suppose it could be said that the banking cartel does run the show, and that quite competently, behind the scenes. The political song and dance is for those who need drama in their lives and want to believe that the PTB are incompetent.
The real power behind the scenes has no such handicap, and are driven by evil unimaginable to the soft, trusting American mind.

The beauty of ignorance, however, like denial...... it can only endure for so long.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Justin Thyme said:


> If they were the government would be in the black. Or all the banks would be looted by now.





NewGround said:


> The banks have been looted already... There is no real wealth only debt... Only trillions of phony money. We are not on a gold standard... Only the full faith and credit of the united states... Only faith to depend on is faith in God not government, credit is only slavery in a better suit...


Once you have a certain amount of money, it's no longer about that. It's about power. Really, how many limo's can you ride in at one time? 

I've known people that owned 1 business, split up (legally) into 3 businesses and somehow two never seem to make money... but that doesn't mean they're worthless to the owner. Draw your own conclusions.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

...... and, since the world no longer deals in money, then it is about the illusion of power....the illusion of control, the illusion of wealth.
_Though thy master loves thee and caresses thee, art thou any less a slave ?_

I forget who said it.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Split infinitively.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I've known people that owned 1 business, split up (legally) into 3 businesses and somehow two never seem to make money... but that doesn't mean they're worthless to the owner. Draw your own conclusions.


 Okay. My conclusion. Our government belongs to us. It is split up into three branches. All three are worthless to us. Is that what you meant?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> ......and it's mind-boggling, the majority of mindless drones who follow submissively, without a thought.


Which is why it gets deeper and deeper over the years.

"Hey, sign this new form showing you're disposing of sawdust correctly."

"Oh, and this other form here that demonstrates that you must hire minorities. Oh, you don't have any employees? Better hire a black one fast or you're out of compliance!"

"Don't forget this form which allows us to inspect your property at any time without notice in case of OSHA violations. We'll be bursting in the door with an armed team as well since you manufacture weapons on the premises."

It'll go on and on as time goes by until I'm so deeply mired in paperwork and chains that I don't ever have time to put my hand to actual knifemaking. 

You know ... I broke THREE laws with my very first knife sale. Who knew that following 1st Thessalonians 4:11 would get one into so much trouble?


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Goodness, Ernie! It sounds as though you're defeated before you even get started. I swear that the paperwork for selling one knife per week is not going to be too time consuming. Really, I promise!


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Just three :fussin: Sorry Ernie but I demand a recount bet there are ten more you don't know about or more . :Bawling:

Yep i'v done had EPA when i had a junkyard and you can't imagine the laws i broke but they will tell you fast :thumb:


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> Goodness, Ernie! It sounds as though you're defeated before you even get started. I swear that the paperwork for selling one knife per week is not going to be too time consuming. Really, I promise!


Hey Ernie! looks like you have a volunteer assistant compliance enforcement aide here.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Good, because I'd have to pay her in sawdust.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Good, because I'd have to pay her in sawdust.


We got plenty right now :hobbyhors Yes it is stored in a Gov approved location . Bet you didn't know the Gov had regulations on a pile of sawdust :croc:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Really? No, I was just being funny. I didn't realize they really did. I should have known. 

What are the regulations on sawdust? Just so I can have a further understanding of what laws I'm breaking.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

......................All of the added layers of control and filing requirements are for one reason only , so that state\federal governments can collect both fee's , sales tax on out of state sales , and income taxes on the net income of the business owners !
.......................Amazon.com is actively defending it's right too not collect state sales taxes when it has no physical presence in any given state . State's are so much in need of additional revenue that they are basically using the threat of prosecution too force everyone too collect , report and remit too them sales tax on ALL sales , regardless of whether the sales are too other states and therefore , exempt !
.......................No one needs a TIN from the IRS , you're personal SS number , is your......TIN ! Hasn't the SC said out of state sales are , EXEMPT from sales tax collection ? The big drive for sales tax collection , currently , by states , is the Volume of internet sales by companies like Amazon . Amazon , also has the resources too defend itself in court , so we'll see how these cases playout in court ! , fordy


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Really? No, I was just being funny. I didn't realize they really did. I should have known.
> 
> What are the regulations on sawdust? Just so I can have a further understanding of what laws I'm breaking.


Sawdust can be inhaled to the detriment of the breather. Therefore it comes under OSHA authority. Feral, or free-range, sawdust is most dangerous in this regard.

It can also be mistaken for common condiments and needs to be properly labeled: Not For Human Consumption, as per the FDA requirements/

And it can be mixed with flour to make bread when under siege (such as at Leningrad in the early 1940s) and is therefore also a strategic resource, falling under DHS authority.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Hrm. I wonder what them OSHA fellows would have to say about me dumping it into the compost pile and then urinating on it.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Hrm. I wonder what them OSHA fellows would have to say about me dumping it into the compost pile and then urinating on it.


You are now entering the territory of the EPA and possibly the corps (pronounced 'core' not 'corpse') of engineers depending on how much urine is involved. May have to build a dam. (How's your prostate doing- there may already be a natural way of handling the problem.)


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

We can leave my prostate out of this. I believe the government checked it the last time they stuck their nose up there.

Seriously though, I can't see why I would bother messing around with the government in this matter and making my business "legal". You wouldn't believe the hassles I have to go through with my "real" business (the distinction being the one that makes the mortgage) already in this regard. As I have refused to comply with certain draconian rules of theirs it has resulted in less and less places that can legally use my services. 

My lack of compliance with government mandates is leading me more and more to the point where I will eventually be living in a hollow log and consuming locusts and wild honey. Perhaps I'll be in the hollow log next door to Forerunner's hollow log and we can speculate together on what exactly went wrong with the world that brought us to that condition. 

Right up until we consume an "endangered" locust and the government's wrath descends upon our hollow log kingdom.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Forerunner said:


> ......and it's mind-boggling, the majority of mindless drones who follow submissively, without a thought.


ound:

Has nothing to do with mindlessly following and everything to do with building something and giving back to society rather than live in poverty and squalor.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> We can leave my prostate out of this. I believe the government checked it the last time they stuck their nose up there.
> 
> *Hey. Nothing personal. Not MY purview at all.*
> 
> ...


Locusts ARE endangered!! And what kind of monarchist are you trying to set up a "kingdom" here in a bear preserve? Maniac!!


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Justin Thyme said:


> Sawdust can be inhaled to the detriment of the breather. Therefore it comes under OSHA authority. Feral, or free-range, sawdust is most dangerous in this regard.
> 
> It can also be mistaken for common condiments and needs to be properly labeled: Not For Human Consumption, as per the FDA requirements/
> 
> And it can be mixed with flour to make bread when under siege (such as at Leningrad in the early 1940s) and is therefore also a strategic resource, falling under DHS authority.


Not far off and a lot wright too . You tee them off you are 100% wright then some :sob::sob:

Where my mill is rain can't run off the dust an enter a stream an must be so many feet from a woods lot . If near a bunch of houses then the dust in the air of all types will bite you in the wallet . Also any persons near or helping must be kin folk or OSHA will eat your breakfast if they drive by .

So come on by cousin Ernie . :hobbyhors

Almost forgot your forklift must have a reverse beeper and horn for going threw intersections :sob:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

While we're having fun with this, I'd like to give a big personal finger (guess which one) to the government's regulations on business. 

My father went bankrupt trying to cooperate with the department of agriculture in the 1980's. My grandfather had made a good living either not complying or not caring about what the government said.

You can guess which man I learned the most from.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ernie said:


> Which is why it gets deeper and deeper over the years.
> 
> "Hey, sign this new form showing you're disposing of sawdust correctly."
> 
> ...


Why do you insist on twisting things?

Nobody forces you to have employees. And if you don't have employees you don't have to worry about OSHA. OSHA, incidentally, was established to protect workers from abuse by employers. I think that is a good thing.

I think you are too negative. You seem to invent reasons why you CAN'T succeed before you even give it a shot. You ought to explore why that is.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ernie said:


> Hrm. I wonder what them OSHA fellows would have to say about me dumping it into the compost pile and then urinating on it.


As long as it doesn't endanger any employees, not much.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Where my mill is rain can't run off the dust an enter a stream an must be so many feet from a woods lot . If near a bunch of houses then the dust in the air of all types will bite you in the wallet .


SO what you are saying you should be able to do whatever you want with no regard to the effect it may have to the people around you.

Nice.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Dutchie said:


> Why do you insist on twisting things?
> 
> *YEAH ERNIE!! EXPLAIN YOURSELF! You've had a free ride here long enough. Great point Dutchie!*
> 
> ...





Dutchie said:


> As long as it doesn't endanger any employees, not much.


I really don't think this guy (Ernie) is qualified to _have_ employees. I mean, look, he's shown a high level of disrespect for our benign and loving government already. I say we just leave him alone and in fifty or a hundred years he'll be long gone.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Dutchie said:


> SO what you are saying you should be able to do whatever you want with no regard to the effect it may have to the people around you.
> 
> Nice.


I believe that SJ is suggesting that once the air is filled with sawdust he should be allowed to throw in a match and watch the explosion if he wants to. I also saw a hint that he wants to slip some of that evil sawdust into the baby food of that nice young couple down the street. And maybe into the dog food those old folks next door have to eat because they can't afford people food thanks to Conservatives and their republuCANT minions. (Although, have you seen dogfood prices lately? I don't see how dogs can afford it.)


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to work for me. My workplace environment demands Christian radio playing in the background (failure to be multicultural), it's not a safe environment (filled with "stabbies" and "slicies"), and the pay is approximately $0.39 per hour (below minimum wage).

I also don't offer an insurance plan, 401k, or paid vacation.

Also, I sometimes don't wear pants which would create a hostile work environment.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Where my mill is rain can't run off the dust an enter a stream an must be so many feet from a woods lot . If near a bunch of houses then the dust in the air of all types will bite you in the wallet.





Dutchie said:


> SO what you are saying you should be able to do whatever you want with no regard to the effect it may have to the people around you.
> 
> Nice.


God forbid you ever visit west Texas when the wind is blowing. 



Dutchie said:


> Has nothing to do with mindlessly following and everything to do with building something and giving back to society rather than live in poverty and squalor.


A few thoughts on the subject by Thomas Paine.

_"Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness POSITIVELY by uniting our affections, the latter NEGATIVELY by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first a patron, the last a punisher."_

_"...a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT..."_

_"Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one..."_


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to work for me.
> 
> Also, I sometimes don't wear pants which would create a hostile work environment.


Or an incredibly inviting one. Either way you would be a terrible employer. Are there NO benefits at all that you can point to? There are a lot of people out of work you know.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, sometimes my gem of a wife will bring me coffee. She's also just as likely to compose dirty limericks on the whiteboard though.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Well, sometimes my gem of a wife will bring me coffee. She's also just as likely to compose dirty limericks on the whiteboard though.


Isn't a limerick, by its very definition, off color?


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Well, sometimes my gem of a wife will bring me coffee. She's also just as likely to compose dirty limericks on the whiteboard though.


Nepotism just adds to your employment-crime statistics you know. 

Move along. No one to be proud of here.....


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Isn't a limerick, by its very definition, off color?


Yes. AND racism. I'd missed that.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Forerunner said:


> ......and it's mind-boggling, the majority of mindless drones who follow submissively, without a thought.


Some of us put a lot of thought into it and follow more like.... beta-predators.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> I've known people that owned 1 business, split up (legally) into 3 businesses and somehow two never seem to make money... but that doesn't mean they're worthless to the owner. Draw your own conclusions.


People don't hold onto businesses that don't make money. Lot's of them make no money on paper. They make plenty of coin in reality. 2 sets of books and no scruples.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to work for me. My workplace environment demands Christian radio playing in the background (failure to be multicultural), it's not a safe environment (filled with "stabbies" and "slicies"), and the pay is approximately $0.39 per hour (below minimum wage).
> 
> I also don't offer an insurance plan, 401k, or paid vacation.
> 
> Also, I sometimes don't wear pants which would create a hostile work environment.


Sounds like an old Italian dude I used to work for.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Dutchie said:


> SO what you are saying you should be able to do whatever you want with no regard to the effect it may have to the people around you.
> 
> Nice.


Well not many near me and don't want em :thumb: Plus unlike some places non of the neighbors here know where the other lives  What my neighbor does is non of my business. I keep the dust down because i can't breath . :yuck:

Good idea on lighting it up might be fun some don't know sawdust can blow up .:grin::runforhills: 


Justin Thyme Keep those ideas coming i think you would be a good neighbor :thumb:

Ernie i know what you mean about hiring people i fired myself twice one day :runforhills:

You can't survive paying out $39.00 a day for help and all the regs out of 40 bucks. :Bawling:

Price workman's comp for logging or a sawmill then get back to me :viking:


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Justin Thyme Keep those ideas coming i think you would be a good neighbor :thumb:


I'd hope to be. Thanks.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Here you go -- this is the regs for registering for an assumed name in IL (also called dba or fictious name):



> When a business name is different from the owner(s) full legal name(s), the Illinois Assumed Name Act requires *sole proprietorships and general partnerships to register with their local county clerk's office*. Corporations, LLCs, LLPs, and limited partnerships register an assumed name as part of their required business filings with the Illinois Secretary of State.


http://www.sba.gov/content/register-your-fictitious-or-doing-business-dba-name/

I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you don't want to use a dba or fictious name, then just use your own name. The tax paperwork is the same. But the reg is in place to protect you. When you register the name, you own it and no one else can use it.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Belfrybat said:


> Here you go -- this is the regs for registering for an assumed name in IL (also called dba or fictious name):
> http://www.sba.gov/content/register-your-fictitious-or-doing-business-dba-name/
> I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you don't want to use a dba or fictious name, then just use your own name. The tax paperwork is the same. But the reg is in place to protect you. When you register the name, you own it and no one else can use it.


The country is awash in unemployment, productivity is way down. Yet here is Ernie making an entire mountain out of a tiny molehill. 

Now THAT'S productivity!


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> ......and it's mind-boggling, the majority of mindless drones who follow submissively, without a thought.


Even more scary when they vote.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

"All I'm asking is that you climb into the van with me, a complete stranger. That's a simple thing, right? No harm there. Hundreds of people do it every day. Ah, now that you're in there I'm sure you won't mind me placing these handcuffs on your wrist, right? It's a simple thing. What harm can come of it? Hundreds of people do it every day. Oh, don't whine so. It's just the back of a stranger's van and some handcuffs. I do believe you're making a mountain out of a molehill."


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> "All I'm asking is that you climb into the van with me, a complete stranger. That's a simple thing, right? No harm there. Hundreds of people do it every day. Ah, now that you're in there I'm sure you won't mind me placing these handcuffs on your wrist, right? It's a simple thing. What harm can come of it? Hundreds of people do it every day. Oh, don't whine so. It's just the back of a stranger's van and some handcuffs. I do believe you're making a mountain out of a molehill."


You are so YESTERDAY! Everybody uses those plastic cuffs in the 21st century.
GET WITH IT OLD REPROBATE!!

Nice interior.....


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

This has been a very amusing thread....Thx Ernie...why don't you just be a good prole and knuckle under to the state.........nawwww....it's just unelected beauracrats doing what they do best-making it as difficult as possible to survive without them..."They who can,do...those that can't work for state,fed gov't"


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Belfrybat said:


> I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you don't want to use a dba or fictious name, then just use your own name. The tax paperwork is the same. But the reg is in place to protect you. When you register the name, you own it and no one else can use it.


True, a DBA really isn't a huge deal from a practical standpoint. But it's only the beginning of the nightmare.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

How dare I try to control the means of production! That's only for the state!










I'm sure if I keep up my scofflaw ways, the only knives I will eventually be making will be prison shanks.


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

You evil rich business guys are all the same, refusing to pay your fair share.
Next you'll be trying to get an exemption from Obama-scare. 
I'm gonna put a bug in Nancy and Harrys' ear.
Flaunting OSHA
Probably got no sulphur or co2 scrubbers either
Enviromental impact statement--doub it. You greedy buisness folks don't care about one eyed red throated polywogs or rare black crested black flies.
Next thing you'll be sending all of your manufacturing overseas to Cananadia or Toledo.

Oooooo can you make a leather knife?


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

You guys have such a aversion for business and taxation, you forget that the security under the flag you love was built on all that evil business and taxation. 

You actually owe quite a lot to 200 yrs of evil business, taxation and paperwork.

If we adopted the sort of system you crave we would be a 3rd world country.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Actually when the country started we didn't have all these laws, just the basic ones.

Seems that in the last few years there is a movement by some to make sure no one has to take responsibility for themselves or their actions. Papa government will make most decisions for you.
That is what many here are totally against.
And a few just drop by to poke at the regulars and try to start a fight and point out how wrong the usual folks of this forum and forum focus are.

Of course, most of the regulars can ignore various posts if they try.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

AngieM2 said:


> Actually when the country started we didn't have all these laws, just the basic ones.
> 
> Seems that in the last few years there is a movement by some to make sure no one has to take responsibility for themselves or their actions. Papa government will make most decisions for you.
> That is what many here are totally against.
> ...


Oh I'm not poking anyone. I'm just posting my opinions.

We might have started out in a more simple time with no real need for so much regulation but, I think some people forget that it isnt 1776 anymore. The modern business machine that runs not only our country but the entire world is mind bogglingly complex. If we stop progressing, we'll die. We learned a few really hard lessons over the last 200 yrs. 1929 was a hard lesson we learned from, set regulations in place to prevent, and then one day, we just chuck those regs aside and look what happened.

The lack of "papa government" when it comes to business is what always gets us in a mess. 1929 and 1999 are excellent examples of that. 

Business is more complicated today, that's just a fact you can't escape. The more complex a thing is and the more people involved, the more rules you need to keep it in line.

We all wish it was the good old days again but that's a pipe dream. We move to fast, to far and to often anymore.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

We understand some have never tried their own business they just punch a clock and join a union :happy:

As usual it has never been lack of Gov regs but because of the Fed printing money the Gov forcing loans to people that can't pay and still doing it .

When this economy resets the survivors may remember a year or two .:run::run:


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

"If we stop progressing, we'll die"...

I'm from the government and I'm here to help...

Anything organization or movement with the words "social justice"...

Fail...


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Technology =/= human nature. Guess which one causes crime...

As to the cause of depressions, it's natural, to some extent. The big problem is that it's exacerbated by the Fed. The 1922 recession was no big deal, in 1929 the government insisted on "saving the economy" and prolonged it. 

_"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation."_ - John Adams

_"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat_

Here's some more thoughts from the early time period in this country that are illustrative of (one of) the problems we're now experiencing.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Gabriel said:


> God forbid you ever visit west Texas when the wind is blowing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm all for a society that encourages intercourse!:gaptooth:


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Ernie said:


> I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to work for me. My workplace environment demands Christian radio playing in the background (failure to be multicultural), it's not a safe environment (filled with "stabbies" and "slicies"), and the pay is approximately $0.39 per hour (below minimum wage).
> 
> I also don't offer an insurance plan, 401k, or paid vacation.
> 
> Also, I sometimes don't wear pants which would create a hostile work environment.


If you had a facebook- you could make this possibly THE most hilarious status I ever read in my life


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## Bluesgal (Jun 17, 2011)

Ernie's on Facebook???!!


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Bluesgal said:


> Ernie's on Facebook???!!


That would be a frightening thought! So, um, how much sawdust does this job pay, Ernie? I keep meaning to set up a portable sawdust toilet... Does the job come with unlimited cigarette breaks? I don't smoke but if I can get some extra time away from the daily grind, it would be a good thing.

I'm thinking that I'd have to telecommute because the music and the no- pants-in-the-Garden-of-Ernie thing would be a deal-breaker!


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

I pay good money for baled compressed sawdust.

In the right job, I'd take it as part of my wages. I have to go buy it anyway.

So what's the job pay.. a bale of sawdust & 5 bucks an hour plus free lunch and all the coffee I can drink?

I'm there.
lol


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