# What would you really do in their shoes.



## brreitsma (Jan 14, 2003)

I know an American who is back right now but was in Mexico for several monthes and is going back again. He said where he was at a lot of the people had been to Portland,Oregan to work. He was saying in much of Mexico if a person sneaks in here and works for 2 years they can go home fully pay for a peice of land and buy all the materials up front to build a new house and still have enough left for a new car. Working there they would struggle through their whole life. 

This next question is not a defense of illegals but asking if you are certain what you would do.

If the U.S. to Canada was what Mexico is to the U.S. and working here in your own country life would be a hand to mouth struggle regardless of how hard you tried but you knew if you could slip up into Canada and get whatever work you could find and after 2 years you would have enough to come back here and have no mortgage on a homestead and be able to buy needed machinery and the animals needed to start out are you able to honestly say that the pull would not get the best of you?


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Without reservation, I would have braved the dangers, perils and often death during crossing, and done the same. I would have supported my family; my parents likewise would have crossed. Certainly I would have been called an illegal. Family first, name tags second.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

For me, no, 2 years is a long time to have the law hanging over my head. 2 years is too long of an amount of time to waste being somewhere I don't really want to be. Money never meant that much to me. But I do understand, the money issue, but Not the law issue. Way to claustrophobic to ever picture myself in jail.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

The "pull"? You mean _the urge_ to BREAK THE LAW? No. I strive not to break laws. If I thought life would be better in another country, I would APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP.

It's all about a person's character whether or not they bend or break rules, and what they can live with in their own conscience. I often have _the urge_ to murder some jerk who desperately needs to stop wasting oxygen. Do I do it? No.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Hmmm, let's see.

Starve and scrape by on nothing, for your entire life. Or, work for a few years to build a good life for your family.

I'd cross the border in a heart-beat.

I've been to Mexico. You are either rich (very few) or dirt poor, with very little between. Our hotel had 40 year old male waiters, that held what is considered a great job, for many years.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

7thswan said:


> For me, no, 2 years is a long time to have the law hanging over my head. 2 years is too long of an amount of time to waste being somewhere I don't really want to be. Money never meant that much to me. But I do understand, the money issue, but Not the law issue. Way to claustrophobic to ever picture myself in jail.


They don't throw illegals in jail. They deport them back into Mexico, so they can sneak back into the U.S. the next day.

They all know that they can come into the country with little repercussions.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Whats wrong with getting a green card and make it legal,plus no law to worry about?


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## muzzelloader (Feb 20, 2006)

I can understand the draw of the good incomebut the breakingt the law to get it is a problem.I However I am allso wondering about as soon as they get here they feel entitled to join demomnstrations etc. If they are that worked up about gov. problems here why are they not in the streets inn Mexico?You know demanding that the Mexican Gov. get it right. Could it be the Mexican Gov. answeris to sed in the armey and police and kill a fue troublel makers???


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> Whats wrong with getting a green card and make it legal,plus no law to worry about?


A green card grants an immigrant permanent residence in the U.S. 

Why would that be better?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Speaking of human rights, why isn't Mexico being protested against for these blatant human rights violations? I would think starving your population through poverty, thanks to corruption, would bring out the protesters in force. 

Yet, for some strange reason, the US is being blamed for not opening our borders.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

muzzelloader said:


> I can understand the draw of the good incomebut the breakingt the law to get it is a problem.I However I am allso wondering about as soon as they get here they feel entitled to join demomnstrations etc. If they are that worked up about gov. problems here why are they not in the streets inn Mexico?You know demanding that the Mexican Gov. get it right. *Could it be the Mexican Gov. answeris to sed in the armey and police and kill a fue troublel makers???*


That is exactly the right answer.

IMO, if I was a Mexican immigrant, I'd probably want to stick around too, eventually moving in my family.

They don't call the U.S., the land of opportunity for nothing.


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

We're Americans, we just go and kill everyone and force them off of their land. This way no laws are broken, much easier on the conscience.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> A green card grants an immigrant permanent residence in the U.S.


No, a Green Card gives a non-citizen of the U.S. the right to work here.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> It's all about a person's character whether or not they bend or break rules, and what they can live with in their own conscience.


AMEN.

I make 2.13 an hour as a waitress. Some nights I make 20.00.
So.........can I justify 'stealing' some groceries? Sticking up a 7-11 for some extra cash?
Absolutely not.

I can (A) get a second job. (B) Go back to school and get a degree to make more money (C) I can be content with what I have.

Character matters.


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## Elffriend (Mar 2, 2003)

It cost us years and thousands of dollars to legally move from the U.S. to Canada. If it's at all similar for people coming into the U.S., I would imagine most of the people crossing the border illegally can't afford to immigrate legally.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> No, a Green Card gives a non-citizen of the U.S. the right to work here.


Try to google for 3 seconds, before responding.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=ae853ad15c673210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

A work visa gives non-citizens the right to work here only.


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

I could do it right here and now if I wanted to sink that low. Steal a gun, rob enough folks, I could build the dang swangest homestead ever. I'd even call on fellow HT'rs to post their addresses so's the 'shopping' would be a little easier. 

I guess my moral compass won't let the needle point to the dirt. I'll have to do it the way I was raised and actually stay legal, work and sweat. Seems like the satisfaction would be greater for the effort. Hmmmmmmm. Personal opinion poll just taken says yea, it feels pretty good knowing I did it the right way. Plenty of sweat but not a drop of bleeding heart to found on the place. No hand wringing, only neck wringing, and that only on slaughter days. 

I wonder why they call them ILLEGAL aliens?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> A green card grants an immigrant permanent residence in the U.S.
> 
> Why would that be better?





mnn2501 said:


> No, a Green Card gives a non-citizen of the U.S. the right to work here.


 Yes thats what I think,I know a few years ago the farmers who hired folks from Mexico were SUPPOSED to check for the green card.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

muzzelloader said:


> I can understand the draw of the good incomebut the breakingt the law to get it is a problem.I However I am allso wondering about as soon as they get here they feel entitled to join demomnstrations etc. If they are that worked up about gov. problems here why are they not in the streets inn Mexico?You know demanding that the Mexican Gov. get it right. Could it be the Mexican Gov. answeris to sed in the armey and police and kill a fue troublel makers???


I would think they learn the protesting part from comunity organizers. And do it so well because they have been promised things by our politicians.
Their politicians are at least honest in that they have nothing to offer.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> Try to google for 3 seconds, before responding.
> 
> http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=ae853ad15c673210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD
> 
> A work visa gives non-citizens the right to work here only.





EDDIE BUCK said:


> Yes thats what I think,I know a few years ago the farmers who hired folks from Mexico were SUPPOSED to check for the green card.


 You are right,but the farm workers from Mexico,would return to Mexico every winter or thats what they told us.:shrug:


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> A green card grants an immigrant permanent residence in the U.S.
> 
> Why would that be better?


So you're not only anti illegal immigration, you're anti immigration.

Got it.

Are you Native American?


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

mnn2501 said:


> No, a Green Card gives a non-citizen of the U.S. the right to work here.


Sorry no, green card is the nickname for the Permanent Resident Card.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I am not sure I can appreciate how bad someone from the third world has it. I wish we could offer the same opportunity to newcomers as my dirty clan got when they rambled off the boats from Ireland. Hated worse then the plague they could still work their way to a decent living if they went to the swamp lands and lumber camps. Oddly that means our farm land and industry is a tad more valuable now than when we first touched down, so I am a bit defensive about giving it away. Especially since I still work swamp land farms and fancy folks homes for smiles and pennies which I am obliged to share.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

So... If you could make enough to pay your mortgage off in a few years growing, selling and transporting marijuana, would you do it too?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> So you're not only anti illegal immigration, you're anti immigration.
> 
> *Got it.*
> 
> Are you Native American?


I don't think you do.

For those who worry about "illegals", immigrants having a green card is actually worse, since the card holders now legally qualify for all government handouts.

Yes, I was born in the U.S., so I am a Native American.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Farmerwilly2 said:


> I could do it right here and now if I wanted to sink that low. Steal a gun, rob enough folks, I could build the dang swangest homestead ever. I'd even call on fellow HT'rs to post their addresses so's the 'shopping' would be a little easier.
> 
> I guess my moral compass won't let the needle point to the dirt. I'll have to do it the way I was raised and actually stay legal, work and sweat. Seems like the satisfaction would be greater for the effort. Hmmmmmmm. Personal opinion poll just taken says yea, it feels pretty good knowing I did it the right way. Plenty of sweat but not a drop of bleeding heart to found on the place. No hand wringing, only neck wringing, and that only on slaughter days.
> 
> I wonder why they call them ILLEGAL aliens?


Go to Mexico and see how easy it is, for Mexicans to "work and sweat", their way out of poverty.

It's easy for us to be self-rightous, when we live in a decent country, have jobs, homes, cars, clothes and a full food pantry.

Comparing robbery with illegal immigration, seems to be a bit of a stretch.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

seedspreader said:


> So... If you could make enough to pay your mortgage off in a few years growing, selling and transporting marijuana, would you do it too?


I guess you could also compare jaywalking with drunk driving. They are both breaking the law.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

So what I would like to know is how they live here and still save money working low pay jobs, often under the minimum wage? They are not all doing farm work and living in a pole shed!

Americans struggle with the cost of living while working. They are called the working poor.

How is it that illegals are eating, have housing here and manage to still save enough to even get back to Mexico, let alone have an easy life afterward?

I think many poor Americans would love to know how this all works, since they struggle day to day to just put food on the table.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

RiverPines said:


> So what I would like to know is how they live here and still save money working low pay jobs, often under the minimum wage? They are not all doing farm work and living in a pole shed!
> 
> Americans struggle with the cost of living while working. They are called the working poor.
> 
> ...


When I lived in CA many moons ago, Mexican immigrant males, both legal and illegal, often lived 12 or more in a two bedroom apartment, sleeping in bunkbeds, living on burritos.

Frankly, I don't beleive that they are really making enough money to go and eventually buy land in Mexico. Most are making much more than if they worked in Mexico. They are usually just wiring most of the money home to support their families. That money goes much further there.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

brreitsma said:


> I know an American who is back right now but was in Mexico for several monthes and is going back again. He said where he was at a lot of the people had been to Portland,Oregan to work. He was saying in much of Mexico if a person sneaks in here and works for 2 years they can go home fully pay for a peice of land and buy all the materials up front to build a new house and still have enough left for a new car. Working there they would struggle through their whole life.
> 
> This next question is not a defense of illegals but asking if you are certain what you would do.
> 
> If the U.S. to Canada was what Mexico is to the U.S. and working here in your own country life would be a hand to mouth struggle regardless of how hard you tried but you knew if you could slip up into Canada and get whatever work you could find and after 2 years you would have enough to come back here and have no mortgage on a homestead and be able to buy needed machinery and the animals needed to start out are you able to honestly say that the pull would not get the best of you?


Does your friend get an adreniline rush working as a coyote, drug runner or whatever requires the travels to Mexico?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> I don't think you do.
> 
> ....... having a green card is actually worse, since the card holders now legally qualify for all government handouts.


It also qualifies them (me/us) to work, and work we do... ----ed hard too and proud of it.


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## brreitsma (Jan 14, 2003)

> [Does your friend get an adreniline rush working as a coyote, drug runner or whatever requires the travels to Mexico? /QUOTE]
> 
> What made you assume he was involved in those activities. He is actually very opposed to all those things. He is not there for money. He is a missionary working with an orphanage there. He knows many people in the town he is in who have worked here. He said many people in town who worked here 2 years bought lots and built homes. Of course homes are smaller and simpler there. Family tends to live together more to so who knows if one worker made enough or it was two or more brothers or other relatives pooling resources but it is not uncommon.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok lets put it this way I'm a U.S. Citizen out of work but there is a Bank or Store that I could Rob and pretty sure I can get away with it hopefully nobody will get hurt.But I will have enough money to live good for couple years.

If I didn't do this me and my family could find ourselves out on the street struggling to get by. :shrug:

Same thing.Yes I've been down there seen how they live they need to make changes down there.

big rockpile


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

RiverPines said:


> So what I would like to know is how they live here and still save money working low pay jobs, often under the minimum wage? They are not all doing farm work and living in a pole shed!
> 
> Americans struggle with the cost of living while working. They are called the working poor.
> 
> ...


Thats funny I had one the other day telling me how they did it.Several live in the same House,use Van or Truck to haul everyone around,they go to eat it is mostly one Pan Meal.

The one I was talking to has his own Farm in Mexico that he goes down when he has money does a little more work on it,then comes back up here.I do know he has several hectares.

big rockpile


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Go to Mexico and see how easy it is, for Mexicans to "work and sweat", their way out of poverty.
> 
> It's easy for us to be self-rightous, when we live in a decent country, have jobs, homes, cars, clothes and a full food pantry.
> 
> Comparing robbery with illegal immigration, seems to be a bit of a stretch.


Not a stretch at all. Coming to this country, stealing aid paid for by our taxes is stealing, and I don't see how you can try to sugar coat it any other way. 
Since you are so full of compassion, post your address. Open your arms (and your self-rightous job, home, car, closet and pantry) to the illegal immigrant of your choice.


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

I grew up poor..REALLY poor..as in sometimes we had no food on the table..

That's why I went to work after school when I was 12 years old, as did my brother. 
My neighborhood in Boston was an immigrant slum... legal immigrants, BTW...where EVERYONE I knew worked their fannies off. I never heard of anyone taking off to anywhere else expecting to live the good life from my neighborhood..it was simply a "given" that you had to choose..be poor, stay poor..or be poor and work HARD to not stay that way.

IF it were impossible to work or go to school, then you apply for LEGAL immigration to another country..I would never even think of sneaking illegally into another country..My lot is my lot..and it's up to ME to improve it.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I have been contemplating this since this morning. And have come to the concluson, I would come in legally. No sneaking and hiding, able to legally get work at MORE money than if I was illegal. Not really a brain buster after all.


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## brreitsma (Jan 14, 2003)

> Not a stretch at all. Coming to this country, stealing aid paid for by our taxes is stealing,


Correct, collecting benefits on their part is theft. However, there are many who don't. There are many citizens who refuse to work and have no intention of working that collect every hand out they can. As I see it the illegal who is working cash but collecting no hand outs has a neutral effect neither taking or giving so to speak. The male citizen who has sired 2-3 children before he is even out of high scool with an equal number of mothers and probably won't stop until or unless he is killed is the person I would like to see deported.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Trouble is we keep aiming the law in the wrong direction. It's employers of illegals who should be paying fines and costs up the whazoo, not the illegals. The employers should have to pay enough that the incentive to employ people at dirt cheap rates disappears even if only half are caught.
Also, it's about time to change the consititution about birth in the US establshes citizenship. That was fine when it took guts and drive to travel to the US, not a plane trip or drive of hours. People who came wanted to make a home, not ajust a buck. 
And, despite the expression of sympathy for illegals, it is not all sweetness and light. A whole lot of criminals use the porous border too. What the result of our greedy use of cheap labor and political lack of will to enforce our own regulations is that we have NO control over who comes in for what purpose.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

bostonlesley said:


> I grew up poor..REALLY poor..as in sometimes we had no food on the table..
> 
> That's why I went to work after school when I was 12 years old, as did my brother.
> My neighborhood in Boston was an immigrant slum... legal immigrants, BTW...where EVERYONE I knew worked their fannies off. I never heard of anyone taking off to anywhere else expecting to live the good life from my neighborhood..it was simply a "given" that you had to choose..be poor, stay poor..or be poor and work HARD to not stay that way.
> ...


There is a little bit of difference - you grew up in America, not a corrupt, dirt poor, 3rd world country, where the average wage is about $12/day. 

When I visited Mexico, I barely ever saw even one person standing still. Everyone was trying to make a living, mostly by serving or hustling tourists. There were people who sold their junky hand-carved trinkets to tourists, from sun-up, to sun-down. We see them on the beach for hours, not making a sale.

They are trying to improve their "lot in life", by going into another country and doing the nasty, dirty jobs, no one else wants to do.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

And it is not luck that made the US successful- it was our parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents, etc hard work, creativity, hussle, political will, sacrifice, courage and yes, agression that gave us what we have- luck was not much of the equation.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Farmerwilly2 said:


> Not a stretch at all. Coming to this country, stealing aid paid for by our taxes is stealing, and I don't see how you can try to sugar coat it any other way.
> Since you are so full of compassion, post your address. Open your arms (and your self-rightous job, home, car, closet and pantry) to the illegal immigrant of your choice.


Is it really much worse than the Americans already here, who do not pay taxes, swill up the government handouts and contribute NOTHING, to the economy? At least someone is gutting our hogs and scrubbing our toilets. Some illegals would wrap a cracked bone up in duct tape, before they would go to a doctor, free or otherwise.

My point was with the OP, that if we were in the same situation, would we sneak into another country to work, so that we could help lift ourselves out of poverty?

I can't imagine that anyone who cared for their families, would not do the same.


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

Most of the illegal immigrants here are working with a 'fake' Social Security card... it's a legitimate number and name on the card, but it doesn't belong to THAT particular person- it belongs to someone deceased (or maybe just a random person who doesn't even know that their number is being double paid, I guess.)

So anyway, the illegal immigrants' paychecks have a certain amount withheld and paid-in to Social Security. I wonder what happens to this money? It won't be collected upon by the original deceased owner of the card, obviously. Maybe it's just kinda "there", helping to keep the SS system floating for another day?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

ArkGirl said:


> Most of the illegal immigrants here are working with a 'fake' Social Security card... it's a legitimate number and name on the card, but it doesn't belong to THAT particular person- it belongs to someone deceased (or maybe just a random person who doesn't even know that their number is being double paid, I guess.)
> 
> So anyway, the illegal immigrants' paychecks have a certain amount withheld and paid-in to Social Security. I wonder what happens to this money? It won't be collected upon by the original deceased owner of the card, obviously. Maybe it's just kinda "there", helping to keep the SS system floating for another day?


Boy, talk about making lemonaide, out of lemons.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ArkGirl said:


> So anyway, the illegal immigrants' paychecks have a certain amount withheld and paid-in to Social Security. I wonder what happens to this money? It won't be collected upon by the original deceased owner of the card, obviously. Maybe it's just kinda "there", helping to keep the SS system floating for another day?


Three basic scenarios- 1) the employer paid the taxes and the system was not able to confirm that the Soc Sec number belonged those wages and dumps the earnings into a giant "to be resolved later" file, 2) employer paid the taxes and it ended up on another person's record or 3) the employer did not pay taxes.
When I worked for Social Security, I spent a lot of time staightening out messes like this by figuring out whose earning belonged where. Every amnesty brought formerly illegal people in to file for their benefits and it was the government's problem to fix it- not the person's. If the employer hadn't paid the taxes, it was the government's job to determine what the earnings were, credit the right record and bill the employer for both the parts of the FICA- which almost never got paid. So the illegal got benefits and no one ever paid a dime into Soc Sec in that case.

Sorry- still lemons.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> I guess you could also compare jaywalking with drunk driving. They are both breaking the law.


See that's the problem with illegal immigration. It's directly responsible for violating individuals liberty. 

The people who pay their taxes, are citizens, own the land that the illegals are trespassing, etc.

Where's the compassion for the citizens living in Arizona.

Did you know that Phoenix is the NUMBER 2 kidnap capital in the whole world?

Perhaps you'd be comfortable with them running drugs, kidnapping and killing folks on your land, in your neighborhood... but I don't think that's very compassionate to expect our fellow citizens to have to put up with that because someone in middle America is comfortable with it. I don't think that's very liberty friendly.

You're going to say that it's a minority of illegal aliens doing this... we've all seen the numbers, they tend to say it's a pretty large minority. Probably there is some correlation between people willing to trespass international borders, bypass laws, lie to their employers, buy another person's ID to someone who commits more serious crimes.

Maybe not, but I am having a hard time really believing that.


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

ArkGirl said:


> So anyway, the illegal immigrants' paychecks have a certain amount withheld and paid-in to Social Security. I wonder what happens to this money?





plowjockey said:


> Boy, talk about making lemonaide, out of lemons.





where I want to said:


> Three basic scenarios- 1) the employer paid the taxes and the system was not able to confirm that the Soc Sec number belonged those wages and dumps the earnings into a giant "to be resolved later" file, 2) employer paid the taxes and it ended up on another person's record or 3) the employer did not pay taxes.
> When I worked for Social Security, I spent a lot of time staightening out messes like this by figuring out whose earning belonged where. Every amnesty brought formerly illegal people in to file for their benefits and it was the government's problem to fix it- not the person's. If the employer hadn't paid the taxes, it was the government's job to determine what the earnings were, credit the right record and bill the employer for both the parts of the FICA- which almost never got paid. So the illegal got benefits and no one ever paid a dime into Soc Sec in that case.
> 
> Sorry- still lemons.


I wasn't trying to make lemonade, although I can see how my post must have sounded rather Pollyanna-ish. lol. I actually really *do* wonder what happens to the money. "where i want to" gave some partial insight/answers. So basically, any money that gets to sit there collecting interest for the SS system, gets eaten by the necessity to hire people to straighten out the confusion?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

ArkGirl said:


> Most of the illegal immigrants here are working with a 'fake' Social Security card... it's a legitimate number and name on the card, but it doesn't belong to THAT particular person- it belongs to someone deceased (or maybe just a random person who doesn't even know that their number is being double paid, I guess.)
> 
> So anyway, the illegal immigrants' paychecks have a certain amount withheld and paid-in to Social Security. I wonder what happens to this money? It won't be collected upon by the original deceased owner of the card, obviously. Maybe it's just kinda "there", helping to keep the SS system floating for another day?


Sometimes those ss numbers belong to living working Americans that wind up with huge tax liabilities because the illegals dont have any taxes withheld....


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

seedspreader said:


> See that's the problem with illegal immigration. It's directly responsible for violating individuals liberty.
> 
> The people who pay their taxes, are citizens, own the land that the illegals are trespassing, etc.
> 
> ...


Well said..


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

jill.costello said:


> The "pull"? You mean _the urge_ to BREAK THE LAW? No. I strive not to break laws. If I thought life would be better in another country, I would APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP.
> 
> It's all about a person's character whether or not they bend or break rules, and what they can live with in their own conscience. I often have _the urge_ to murder some jerk who desperately needs to stop wasting oxygen. Do I do it? No.



Or at least enter LEGALLY, not throught the desert in the middle of the night.....


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

it can take years to get a green card....and it is difficult and expensive. if they had the money..they wouldnt bother risking their lives to do it illegally. look at how many people have died trying to do it illegally. do you really think if it were that simple they would risk their lives?


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

I would come here, but I would do it legally.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

lilmizlayla said:


> it can take years to get a green card....and it is difficult and expensive. if they had the money..they wouldnt bother risking their lives to do it illegally. look at how many people have died trying to do it illegally. do you really think if it were that simple they would risk their lives?




Expensive,truth I don't know what a Green Card would cost but I know a Girl said it was going to cost $5,000 to get her Cousin up here illegally.So if they come up they have to make a bunch of money to pay for everything.

As far as Green Cards the Illegals I've seen will put several will use one Green Card.

My wife said 30 years ago if one was here on a Visa the Green Card didn't cost anything.

big rockpile


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

lilmizlayla said:


> it can take years to get a green card....and it is difficult and expensive. if they had the money..they wouldnt bother risking their lives to do it illegally. *look at how many people have died trying to do it illegally. do you really think if it were that simple they would risk their lives*?



Laws can and do change all the time. Not liking the law as it is now does not justify breaking it...even more so another country's laws...a country you have illegally entered.

People risk their lives to deal drugs, rob banks etc. Your logic above would say they are somehow justified in their actions, just because their warped decision making process said "do it".


Edit: Ok, I re-read your post several more times....perhaps you are not justifying their actions (illegal entry) due to the difficulty of the legal process....but it sure sounded like it to me on the first two readings. My point stands that folks make bad decisions all the time and we should not justify their illegal actions just because to be legal is more difficult.

Tim


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Tiempo said:


> It also qualifies them (me/us) to work, and work we do... ----ed hard too and proud of it.


And, I for one, am glad to have you!


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

plowjockey said:


> There is a little bit of difference - you grew up in America, not a corrupt, dirt poor, 3rd world country, where the average wage is about $12/day.
> 
> When I visited Mexico, I barely ever saw even one person standing still. Everyone was trying to make a living, mostly by serving or hustling tourists. There were people who sold their junky hand-carved trinkets to tourists, from sun-up, to sun-down. We see them on the beach for hours, not making a sale.
> 
> They are trying to improve their "lot in life", by going into another country and doing the nasty, dirty jobs, no one else wants to do.


Really? Here in rural Missouri, our sheriff arrested 15 illegal immigrants who were working a construction site for the SAME rate of pay as the non-union local American citizens..BTW, our unemployment rate here is 20%..These men had no families here..they were given apartments for free while they worked as a perk..and sent their money back to Mexico. 

My neighbors son, meanwhile, was a laid off construction worker. Any "dirty jobs" here are done by Americans happy to have a paycheck!!!!!!!!!!!! The difference is that the contractor paid under the table..so there were no taxes paid, no benefits paid..not a dime going to the country which refuses to deport these guys..Cry me a river over illegal immigrants being treated poorly by the bad Americans..


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

seedspreader said:


> So... If you could make enough to pay your mortgage off in a few years growing, selling and transporting marijuana, would you do it too?


 Interesting..If one could do something legal but use illegal labor knowingly to increase profits would they do it?
You drove a truck. If one could disregard the Hours of Service laws in order to run more and make more money would they do it?

Funny how it's always about money when you boil it all down.

To answer your question,yes, I would have done it years ago.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Beeman said:


> Interesting..If one could do something legal but use illegal labor knowingly to increase profits would they do it?
> You drove a truck. If one could disregard the Hours of Service laws in order to run more and make more money would they do it?
> 
> Funny how it's always about money when you boil it all down.
> ...


Why years ago? Why not now?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

If I was a small poor child living in Mexico I sure hope my father would think enough about me to sacrifice to keep me alive. If I was a mother of small children living in Mexico I would hope my husband would do what he had to do to feed and clothe the family.
It is easy to put blame on someone when you do not know the problems they have in their life. I think a man should do what he needs to take care of his family, no matter where he lives.
Do we have that many people on this forum that would not do the same to feed their family?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................We have (3) very negative factors present today driving negative opinions of illegals , today that , largely , weren't present say 30 years previous.......The sheer volume of illegals.....
The number of jobs held by illegals , which in a strong economy , previously wasn't necessarily a factor.....
 The murder and mayhem being loosed upon Both sides of the border , as well as the Importation of drugs by "walking" illegals whom previously, crossed the desert simply wanting a job ! , fordy


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

Since there are MILLIONS of illegal aliens in the United States from Mexico, one has to wonder why, if they are all here looking for a better life:

WHY don't they become activists in their own country to change the Mexican standard of living? We're talking about millions of people..are none of them interested in changing their own country ? Are none of them capable of banding together and mounting a local defense of the drug trade & gangs? Are none of them willing to do whatever it takes to effect change in Mexico? 

From the number of people seen demonstrating HERE to change OUR laws, one would think that the SAME people would be marching in the streets of their own country demanding change.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

op your premise is wrong


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

brreitsma said:


> Correct, collecting benefits on their part is theft. However, there are many who don't. There are many citizens who refuse to work and have no intention of working that collect every hand out they can. As I see it the illegal who is working cash but collecting no hand outs has a neutral effect neither taking or giving so to speak. The male citizen who has sired 2-3 children before he is even out of high scool with an equal number of mothers and probably won't stop until or unless he is killed is the person I would like to see deported.


Oh trust me, I have a problem with lazy cheats of all walks, our own included. We can start another thread about deadbeat citizens sucking off the labor and taxes of the workers here if you wish. 

The subject of this thread was whether is is ok to sneak into another soveriegn nation illegally and sneak back out with whatever profit can be had. I listened to a couple young kids on the BBC being interviewed last night. They have 'taken it to the streets' over the unfairness of not having documentation---18, 19 yo. Mom and Dad snuck into the country YEARS ago. While here they raised their kids, using our medical services, schools, police and fire protection. 18, 19 years of sucking off the U S taxpayer and now they are offended that they are having trouble getting into college and getting good jobs because they aren't legal. Well protestors kiss my 'son of' and 'great-grandson of' LEGAL TAXPAYING immigrants backside. 

I'm fed up to full of bleeding hearts hand wringing. I heard clips from the 'rhymin revrunds' Al 'I never heard an outrageous racial claim I didn't march for' Sharpton and Jesse 'ride the M.L. King coat tails' Jackson this week. Ole Jess called it the new form of racism, Al just thinks it's the same old Nazi tricks. The rest of the news commentators all paint the picture of peaceful families being pulled out of their cars just so the jack booted thugs can harrass the poor unfortunates. Calls to boycott Arizona went out.

Let's refresh memories since schools won't take the time to actually teach kids anymore as that might be construed as being unfair. The real Nazis would not have waited till a crime had been comitted to ascertain whether the perp was legal or not. They would have jsut been rounded up, enmasse, sent by the trainload to a camp and gassed out of existance. Uncle Joe Stalin (probably one of barrack osamas heros) and the charming Kim of N. Korea would have have the police round them up and sent them off to the Gulags to spend the rest of their days in hard labor exile. The Khemer would have just tied a sack around their heads and tossed them in a ditch. Even closer to home old Bull Connor and Klan Inc. would have whipped em and lynched em and still been home in time for the late news.

As it stands at least some folks in this country are willing to grow some hangy downs and finally stick up for themselves. Cracking down on the sneaks and on the businesses willing to hire them is a long way from having the resolve to protect the border to begin with, but it's a start. I wonder if you could go to some garage sale in Eastern Europe and find a slightly used Iron Curtain complete with guard towers---mine fields sold seperately? I wonder if it would keep folks out as well as it kept folks in? Barring that, maybe we could contract with some Israeli firm to build us a proper barrier.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ArkGirl said:


> I wasn't trying to make lemonade, although I can see how my post must have sounded rather Pollyanna-ish. lol. I actually really *do* wonder what happens to the money. "where i want to" gave some partial insight/answers. So basically, any money that gets to sit there collecting interest for the SS system, gets eaten by the necessity to hire people to straighten out the confusion?


Some just sits but most is claimed by someone when they get their real green card or get naturalized. The part that use to make me angry was that if the employer was out of business or unable to pay or re-incorporated, the taxpayers got the eat the whole cost. The employee is held blameless even if the knew they were working illegally. 
An employer is liable for the employee part of FICA and the employer part too if he neglects to withhold. I always felt that if the employee agreed to work under the table, then they should at least have to pay their part.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

bostonlesley said:


> Since there are MILLIONS of illegal aliens in the United States from Mexico, one has to wonder why, if they are all here looking for a better life:
> 
> WHY don't they become activists in their own country to change the Mexican standard of living? We're talking about millions of people..are none of them interested in changing their own country ? Are none of them capable of banding together and mounting a local defense of the drug trade & gangs? Are none of them willing to do whatever it takes to effect change in Mexico?
> 
> *From the number of people seen demonstrating HERE to change OUR laws, one would think that the SAME people would be marching in the streets of their own country demanding change*.


LOL


What change have we been able to enact here, by marching in the streets, at least in the last forty years?

Most Americans opposed heathcare reform and the stimulus package - but we get them anyway. So much for "change here".

People who to to try to invoke change in Mexico, usually come up against some pretty strong resistance. Someone would shoot your wife and kids, in a heartbeat, if they did not like what you were doing. The cops would be looking the other way.

http://www.infowars.com/human-rights-observers-killed-in-attack-in-mexico/



> Two human rights activists were shot and killed in an ambush in southern Mexico as they tried to deliver food and supplies to a town being harassed by armed groups, authorities said on Wednesday


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Last time i was in Mexico the cops would probably do it . I think some folks have never been past the end of the block where they live .


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

seedspreader said:


> Why years ago? Why not now?


 I now have something to lose. That's what the whole deal is about, we as Americans have something to lose, they have nothing to lose.


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

bostonlesley said:


> Since there are MILLIONS of illegal aliens in the United States from Mexico, one has to wonder why, if they are all here looking for a better life:
> 
> WHY don't they become activists in their own country to change the Mexican standard of living? We're talking about millions of people..are none of them interested in changing their own country ? Are none of them capable of banding together and mounting a local defense of the drug trade & gangs? Are none of them willing to do whatever it takes to effect change in Mexico?
> 
> From the number of people seen demonstrating HERE to change OUR laws, one would think that the SAME people would be marching in the streets of their own country demanding change.


 Hey that's pretty funny. We don't seem to be doing too good of a job at it here. What percentage of Americans vote? Isn't it one of the lowest percentages of any country?


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

big rockpile said:


> Expensive,truth I don't know what a Green Card would cost but I know a Girl said it was going to cost $5,000 to get her Cousin up here illegally.So if they come up they have to make a bunch of money to pay for everything.
> 
> As far as Green Cards the Illegals I've seen will put several will use one Green Card.
> 
> ...


Instead of a green card they could also get a H1b or H2b work visa. The H1b visa is good for 3 years and must be a "specialized" job. The H2b visa must be a seasonal job and is only good for 1 year. All you need is a sponsoring employer. Which maybe found in many places. For $99 you can sign up at http://www.h1base.com/ and almost be guaranteed a sponsoring job.


Just about all the ones that come across illegally cannot get a visa or green card because they are already criminals. Either they have been caught being in the U.S. illegally already or they have committed another crime. This is why there are immigration regulations. We don't need criminals we could use some workers though(just not as many as we have).


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

blooba said:


> Instead of a green card they could also get a H1b or H2b work visa. The H1b visa is good for 3 years and must be a "specialized" job. The H2b visa must be a seasonal job and is only good for 1 year. All you need is a sponsoring employer. Which maybe found in many places. For $99 you can sign up at http://www.h1base.com/ and almost be guaranteed a sponsoring job.
> 
> 
> *Just about all the ones that come across illegally cannot get a visa or green card because they are already criminals. *Either they have been caught being in the U.S. illegally already or they have committed another crime. *This is why there are immigration regulations*. We don't need criminals we could use some workers though(just not as many as we have).


I hate to be so blunt, but dude you are clueless. That is so far from the truth. If I apologize here and now will the moderator go easy on me? OK I apologize for being Frank.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Beeman said:


> I now have something to lose. That's what the whole deal is about, we as Americans have something to lose, they have nothing to lose.


So justice isn't really blind then? Or rather it shouldn't be?

Would it be to fair to say you're willing to give up some of your earnings and land to give to the illegals? I mean since really what you are saying is that the law is subject to how much you have to lose.

Or, is Arizona on the right track and just making it more likely that they DO have something to lose if they are caught?


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## Bigkat80 (Jan 16, 2007)

Elffriend said:


> It cost us years and thousands of dollars to legally move from the U.S. to Canada. If it's at all similar for people coming into the U.S., I would imagine most of the people crossing the border illegally can't afford to immigrate legally.


Its not even Close Canada has stricter immigration laws than the US...we just let em walk on in....it is not an excuse to break the law ever.....


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## Helena (May 10, 2002)

God has blessed most of us on this forum to live in a country that will and does allow us to work and support ourselves and families. No..I don't know what it is like to have nothing.. and struggle daily to live for the basic needs for a family. But...is it really hard to get a green card ?? Does the Mexican goverment make it hard for their people to come to the US..I would think they would want them to come into the US legally so that the money they make gets sent into Mexico to spend there. I must be missing something ?? But...I believe if the companies or the people or the casinos that hire the illegal people..from any country..we shut down and not allowed to do business for a period of time and fined millions of dollars but still pay the legal workers their weekly pay checks you would find jobs not easy for illegals to find. Take away the jobs..and less would be coming into the country illegally.Maybe it is just too simple...??


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

LaManchaPaul said:


> I hate to be so blunt, but dude you are clueless. That is so far from the truth. If I apologize here and now will the moderator go easy on me? OK I apologize for being Frank.


ok, if I am so clueless then why pay a smuggler a couple thousand dollars if you can just walk across on a legal crossing? 

If I am so clueless why no facts to prove me wrong? Oh, yea cuz you know I'm right and you can't face the facts.

You can be frank,joe,sam or even Obama but its all just a big lie!


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Helena said:


> God has blessed most of us on this forum to live in a country that will and does allow us to work and support ourselves and families. No..I don't know what it is like to have nothing.. and struggle daily to live for the basic needs for a family. But...is it really hard to get a green card ?? Does the Mexican goverment make it hard for their people to come to the US..I would think they would want them to come into the US legally so that the money they make gets sent into Mexico to spend there. I must be missing something ?? But...I believe if the companies or the people or the casinos that hire the illegal people..from any country..we shut down and not allowed to do business for a period of time and fined millions of dollars but still pay the legal workers their weekly pay checks you would find jobs not easy for illegals to find. Take away the jobs..and less would be coming into the country illegally.Maybe it is just too simple...??


It is very difficult..it can take years. we are talking about mexican government. You know how long and inefficient americas government is? well....its worse there. 

people dont want to wait that long to find work. They have families at home they need to support. 

NOW..if american men could only dig that deep in themselves to feel the same about THEIR children and families...America would be so much better!


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

If I lived in a backwater, or dry destitute area of Mexico or Latin America w/o the option of $$$ to attend school, find work, or grow and live on my own land, I would cross the boarder into the US to find work and to send some of that $$ back to my family in Latina. We talk about survival on this board. That is taking your life into your own hands and finding a way to survive. And after see what the US has to offer I would w/o a doubt try to find a way to stay here and to bring my family here. 
Was that your Q? 
We need immigration reform from the national level not from state to state to state. It all needs to be the same and the reform need all of the same requirements from the gov. level. The laws that we already have obviously have not worked or they would have been enforced. Maybe we will have some changes now that Arizona has implimented these laws. We had May day marches everywhere. Thousand apon thousand of people protested these laws. They have been noticed. Now I just hope our congress will change these laws/regs.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Helena said:


> God has blessed most of us on this forum to live in a country that will and does allow us to work and support ourselves and families. No..I don't know what it is like to have nothing.. and struggle daily to live for the basic needs for a family. *But...is it really hard to get a green card ?? *Does the Mexican goverment make it hard for their people to come to the US..I would think they would want them to come into the US legally so that the money they make gets sent into Mexico to spend there. I must be missing something ?? But...I believe if the companies or the people or the casinos that hire the illegal people..from any country..we shut down and not allowed to do business for a period of time and fined millions of dollars but still pay the legal workers their weekly pay checks you would find jobs not easy for illegals to find. Take away the jobs..and less would be coming into the country illegally.Maybe it is just too simple...??


Helena, on the surface, it seems so simple. However, it isn't 'hard' to get a green card. It simply is 'not possible' for one to enter the country without a visa or passport, and obtain any sort of legal status. Other posters have tried to compare the cost of paying a coyote compared to the price of a green-card. They aren't for sale.

I understand your idea of fines and closure of companies. However, it would (and has) cripple the economy of several industries and destroy the agriculture industry in some areas; as ag is seasonal. When there are raids (chicken industry) (onion farms) (nurseries) then 'legal' workers are impacted; parents of citizens are impacted and local businesses complain heavily to elected officials.

As you probably know FEMA couldn't do carp in non-emergencies then crashedNburned in an emergency. I see nothing different with ICE. Whoever is in the whitehouse can't manage such bureaucracies. The problem isn't just the fault with whichever party is in the whitehouse.

There are two controls over legal immigration to the US; that of the US embassy in the country of origin and that of that countryâs issuing agency. 
Those who are doctors, nurses and other specified skilled and licensed applicants are are coveted and given permission to enter by the US. 

The "manager of Western Union" the "owner of a construction company" the "parent;â the commoner who wants to work as a laborer could never obtain legal permission to just come over.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> However, it would (and has) cripple the economy of several industries and destroy the agriculture industry in some areas; as ag is seasonal.


You keep repeating that even though you've been shown the FACTS to refute it



> the commoner who wants to work as a laborer *could never obtain legal permission *to just come over.


Yet another falsehood, since there are literally thousands who get* work visas *every year


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Thousands of people did protest across the US re: Arizona's law. And too much of the time, I saw Mexican flags and signs demanding that non-citizens be free to come to stay and work as they chose. As if American citizens have no right to make their own laws and enforce them if it inconveniences illegals. 
This is what the US gets because so many here see their own country as totally deficient while others see us as pushovers. 
And the massive herd of US educated lawyers are just rolling in the aisles with joy............


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You keep repeating that even though you've been shown the FACTS to refute it
> 
> 
> 
> Yet another falsehood, since there are literally thousands who get* work visas *every year


I stand corrected. Literally. 

BFF, someone projecting that if this; then that, is not a fact.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> BFF, someone projecting that if this; then that, is *not a fact*.


And yet YOU keep "projecting" economic collapse without illegals to work the farms.
At least your above statement is correct, although I don't think you meant for it to be applied to yourself


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

brreitsma said:


> I know an American who is back right now but was in Mexico for several monthes and is going back again. He said where he was at a lot of the people had been to Portland,Oregan to work. He was saying in much of Mexico if a person sneaks in here and works for 2 years they can go home fully pay for a peice of land and buy all the materials up front to build a new house and still have enough left for a new car. Working there they would struggle through their whole life.
> 
> This next question is not a defense of illegals but asking if you are certain what you would do.
> 
> If the U.S. to Canada was what Mexico is to the U.S. and working here in your own country life would be a hand to mouth struggle regardless of how hard you tried but you knew if you could slip up into Canada and get whatever work you could find and after 2 years you would have enough to come back here and have no mortgage on a homestead and be able to buy needed machinery and the animals needed to start out are you able to honestly say that the pull would not get the best of you?


Since I lived and worked in other countries for about half of my career, always complying with the law, I have zero sympathy for those that try to shortcut the system as a matter of expediency.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> The laws that we already have obviously have not worked or they would have been enforced.


No you have it wrong, the laws aren't working BECAUSE they're not enforced.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

LaManchaPaul said:


> I stand corrected. Literally.
> 
> BFF, someone projecting that if this; then that, is not a fact.


Are you arguing about how many visas are issued? He was being conservative, its MILLIONS!

http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY09AnnualReport_TableIV.pdf


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

bostonlesley said:


> Really? Here in rural Missouri, our sheriff arrested 15 illegal immigrants who were working a construction site for the SAME rate of pay as the non-union local American citizens..BTW, our unemployment rate here is 20%..These men had no families here..they were given apartments for free while they worked as a perk..and sent their money back to Mexico.
> 
> My neighbors son, meanwhile, was a laid off construction worker. Any "dirty jobs" here are done by Americans happy to have a paycheck!!!!!!!!!!!! The difference is that the contractor paid under the table..so there were no taxes paid, no benefits paid..not a dime going to the country which refuses to deport these guys..Cry me a river over illegal immigrants being treated poorly by the bad Americans..


Did the contractor get arrested and charged? Or was he left alone and not bothered?


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