# Opps Holstein over Hereford



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Not my opps but a fella down the road a bit. His neighbors Holstein bull got out and in with the his Herefords. I know black herefords are worth a bit, but we're concerned that the huge calves might kill his cows. Anyone have some good news for him?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

If they have calved before they should be fine. I'd be concerned about a heifer but I wouldn't panic.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

tinknal said:


> If they have calved before they should be fine. I'd be concerned about a heifer but I wouldn't panic.


 I think it's a mix, I'll pass that on though thanks. The neighbor seems to think everything will be fine. What would the guy think considering his bull got out though right...lol


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bad news. I'd have the vet give them all a shot to abort. 
Easier than having the Vet do a C section and perhaps losing the calf and cow next summer. 

If they were open, there is nothing to lose if they were aborted now. The guy with the bull should pay Vet costs.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I worked on a registered Hereford ranch in MT years ago. We kept records on every cow. One got bred by a "mystery bull" that was obviously a Holstein. To the boss's eternal embarrassment that cow was his top producer for the year.


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## Radicalrob01 (Oct 21, 2011)

I would check the records, if birth weights are close to the same you should not have a problem. I read some where that a young holstein bull breed several highland cows (highlands are my favorite breed, I read alot about them) and hes said they all turned out great. I believe he keep 3 heifers to increase the steer size. Not really sure where I read or I would send you the link, sorry.:smack


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Bad news. I'd have the vet give them all a shot to abort.
> Easier than having the Vet do a C section and perhaps losing the calf and cow next summer.
> 
> If they were open, there is nothing to lose if they were aborted now. The guy with the bull should pay Vet costs.


This is what would happen here if the farmer running the cows was breeding specifically to a breed, and his boundary fences were good. The farmer with the wandering bull would be liable for all costs. 

Having said that, the Hereford/Friesian cross is a popular one here (we call them Black White Faces or BWF) and they are much sought after. They are massive milk producers if kept as breeding cows and produce great calves if put to an Angus bull. My neighbour runs BWF's and leases my Angus bull. Her calves are to die for.

However, this cross usually comes about from Hereford over Friesian, (clean-up bulls in dairy herds) not Friesian over Hereford and the Hereford is known for small birthweights with good growth rates. Whether that works the other way round, I'm not too sure of but I don't see why it shouldn't. I think I would take the punt and let things be if I wasn't particularly fussed on breeding. Just my take.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Ronnie, Herefords, known for small calves are a good pick to put on a small Holstein, known for their large calves, to insure an easy birth.
Putting a bull from a breed that has large calves on a cow that is a breed that has small calves is a disaster. I am sure of this.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Depends on the Herefords. Are they frame size 3 or 7?

Probably also depends on the Hereford owner's personality. If he's the fretting kind, aborting would be the way to go rather than worry for 8 months.

If he's into taking risks and dealing with possible consequences, might be fun to go for it.

Like Tinknal said, in good size adult cows, probably low risk. Can't be worse than the little heifer I had calve at 15 months last year.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I see it as a no win....
...if his cows were bred to HIS BULL and he lost 10 cow do to calving.. or had to pull 10calves ..it would be just a problem with his bull or the cows were too old or some other reason


with this breding if he loses one cow or even has to pull one it will be the neighbors bull was the problem


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

If it was old style Herefords it might be a concern, but Hereford breeders were able to slip enough Simmental blood into their herds back before DNA testing became common to significantly increase frame size.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

I talked to him this morning and he's going to let it ride. Says he'll be a bit nervous come calving time but... So I'll let you guys know what happens...lol

Tink, his girls are freaking huge so maybe he'll be ok.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Just depends alot on the bull calving size, could be good , could be bad. Good Luck, > Marc


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Generally, Angus and Herefords have small calves. As mentioned earlier, knowing what size calves your bull throws is very important.
Here is a photo of a too large calf that later had to be cut out of the cow. Apparently the bull was black, but likely also had some holstein blood.

Getting a bit nervous at calving time isn't a viable solution.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I wouldn't be too worried about it, except that the 1/2 Holstein calves are worth a lot less than a pure beef calf. I wouldn't be very happy about that.

It's the shoulder size that you have to worry about. I don't think Holstein shoulders are any wider than Hereford shoulders. A good Hereford cow should be wide and deep and capable of birthing a 1/2 Holstein calf.

Ronney, a BWF here is half Hereford and 1/2 Angus. A half beef and half dairy calf isn't much wanted by anyone. They don't do either beef or milk as well as a pure calf.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Oregon, I looked into what kind of hybrid this would make and found out it's a popular choice in the UK. They tend to do Hereford on Holstein though. It's not unlike US ranchers doing an Angus on a Holstein here (for dairy cows first breeding), except the Black Herefords as they are called do better on grass.










This is what the hybrid heifers look like. I agree they wouldn't be up to US standards for a beef cow, but I'd personally like to have a few females to breed to an Angus bull. The smaller females and extra milk would make for some FAT babies calves for market... I think.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In my experience (yours may be different) the shoulders can cause some trouble, but a large calf presents two distinct problems. Note the example on my earlier post. A large calf is much more likely to have one or both front feet back. It is rare that a cow can pass a calf with front legs back. But, caught early, a skilled cattleman can get his arm far into the cow and bring out the legs without puncturing her uterus.

That's just a dirty trick Mother nature plays on Cattlemen. With the feet brought forth, one begins to believe that we are about to see a sucessful birth. But reality sets in when we remember that fighting for the missing front leg, up to your shoulder in afterbirth, is the easy part. Hip Lock comes next. This is where the cow's pelvic opening cannot pass the calf's pelvis. The calf's pelvis, caught in the cow's pelvis, will press against a group/band of important nerves. That's when the cow goes down and cannot get up. If you are able to get in there, as the cow moans and groans on the ground, and cut the calf and cut apart it's oversized pelvis, you have a good chance the cow will live. Percentages that she''l ever re-breed are lower. Delay, and the nerve damage quickly becomes irreverseable and the cow never gets up again.

If my cows had a 6 week fetus the size of a walnut that is capable of placing my cows and I into such torture, I doubt my solution would be, " Well, we'll just have to see how this turns out." Does the Anti-Abortion sentiment extend to cattle?

Herford or Angus on Holstein, every day. Holstein on Herford or Angus, never, never, never. But that's just my opinion.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> Oregon, I looked into what kind of hybrid this would make and found out it's a popular choice in the UK. They tend to do Hereford on Holstein though. It's not unlike US ranchers doing an Angus on a Holstein here (for dairy cows first breeding), except the Black Herefords as they are called do better on grass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hays Converters are Holstein-Hereford hybrids:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/
http://www.thecattlesite.com/breeds/beef/89/hays-converter/overview


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

That's pretty interesting Karen. I'll have to look closer at those as they really fit what I want.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

THis subject sounded familiar, and here's a thread on the subject of cows from this cross.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73616

Guess it depends on what you're doing. As a beef cow, the extra milk can be a problem (scours, losing condition, etc). If you have use for the extra milk, and feed them well so they don't lose condition and can breed back, might be okay. You'd want to breed them to something that could throw high growth calves to utilize the extra milk. That usually is one of the continental breeds like Charolais, or Limousin, or something.

The guy that does my AI has a holstein dairy and an angus herd, and some angus/holstein crosses produce so much he has them in his milking string. But when combining two very different genetics, it's a crapshoot as to what you'll get in each cow. As haypoint said, they'd be not as good beef cows, and not as good dairy cows. There's a reason people don't breed their beef cows to make alot of milk.

THe best use would be to sell heifers as family cows people could milk, and breed to beef to get a good beef calf.

For me, the resulting cows would be too big. I'd rather have Jersey/beef crosses. The talk among most beef guys is that cows have gotten too big.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

DJ in WA said:


> THis subject sounded familiar, and here's a thread on the subject of cows from this cross.
> http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73616
> 
> Guess it depends on what you're doing. As a beef cow, the extra milk can be a problem (scours, losing condition, etc). If you have use for the extra milk, and feed them well so they don't lose condition and can breed back, might be okay. You'd want to breed them to something that could throw high growth calves to utilize the extra milk. That usually is one of the continental breeds like Charolais, or Limousin, or something.
> ...


 This is something I've been thinking on recently. I see these monster sized bulls that can only survive with a lot of supplemental feed all the time. For myself I want something that's good on grass and easy to handle. My former plan to just cut em loose and harvest as needed is looking less and less likely.

So something a bit smaller but still meaty enough to make a profit is what I'm looking for. Perhaps keeping the Holstein Hereford heifers and crossing them with a shorthorn beef? You'd loose a lot of the black I think, which might cost if you sell at a barn. That's the reason I don't have any Maine-Anjou, which I really like the looks of.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Ronney, a BWF here is half Hereford and 1/2 Angus. A half beef and half dairy calf isn't much wanted by anyone. They don't do either beef or milk as well as a pure calf.


Oregon, as I understand it, your Hereford/Angus crosses are Black Baldies. It took me a while to work out that these were not what we called BWF's which in NZ, Australia and the UK are the Hereford/Friesian cross. And don't underestimate the milk/meat production from the Hereford/Friesian cross. They are prolific milk producers and will easily produce over 20 litres a day and are capable of rearing 3 mothered on calves. Find me a pure bred Angus or Hereford that can do that. It is an eternal snotter for my Angus breeder friend that I can grow out cross bred calves as good as hers and fetch better money for them. It could be said that the BWF is the ideal dual-purpose cow. 

The photo Invalid posted is a good example of a grass fed Hereford/Friesian cross - and she's only a heifer. In another year that heifer is going to be a big, chunky cow that will produce well both in terms of milk and meat. If put to an Angus bull her calves will be brilliant. 

While there is always going to be a need for pure bred breeders, I often think that people need to get their heads out of that syndrome and get a bit of lateral thinking. The Jersey Islanders didn't import pure bred Herefords or Angus to eat. They ate their Jersey cattle, a much maligned dairy beef in the modern world. The fact is that they make darned fine eating and so do the crosses.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

You did not state if these were grown cows or 1st calf heifers. How many did he bred? How long did he stay? Left a lot of questions. If they have had a calf before should have any more problems than normal. If heifers just have the Vet check the pelvic opening to see if the heifer has enough room to have a calf , regardless of who the bull is.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

we had two big Holstein Angus cross cows, they were HUGE, had nice big bags, produced awesome calfs when bred back to an Angus bull, were kept out at pasture with the rest of the herd and did just fine, we got these two from an Angus breeder that used them as recip cows, they were several years old and sence the rancher that used our electricity for his hot wire on the pasture next to us we were allowed to keep them with his beef herd to be serviced by his angus bull, we got several nice big calves of them before we moved to Alabama.


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## CCCC (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks for sharing Karen L, very interesting.

DJ makes a good point.

My dad had a few of these as his thoughts from growing up on a dairy was that a good beef cow should have a little holstein in her, but the F1's he had milked too much. Usually some problems with mastitis and milk fever. Also they usually ended up with having only 2 or 3 good milking quarters with very large frames, but they always did raise the biggest calves. The 1/4 bloods did make some great cows.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

KSALguy said:


> we had two big Holstein Angus cross cows, they were HUGE, had nice big bags, produced awesome calfs when bred back to an Angus bull, were kept out at pasture with the rest of the herd and did just fine, we got these two from an Angus breeder that used them as recip cows, they were several years old and sence the rancher that used our electricity for his hot wire on the pasture next to us we were allowed to keep them with his beef herd to be serviced by his angus bull, we got several nice big calves of them before we moved to Alabama.


Since Holstein generally have large calves and Angus generally have small calves, An angus bull on a Holstein or Holstein cross is a safe calving plan. The important lesson here is that it isn't safe the other way around.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

CCCC said:


> Thanks for sharing Karen L, very interesting.
> 
> DJ makes a good point.
> 
> My dad had a few of these as his thoughts from growing up on a dairy was that a good beef cow should have a little holstein in her, but the F1's he had milked too much. Usually some problems with mastitis and milk fever. Also they usually ended up with having only 2 or 3 good milking quarters with very large frames, but they always did raise the biggest calves. The 1/4 bloods did make some great cows.


Did your dad get that bit of Holstein in his beef cows by bringing in a Holstein bull to use on Angus or Hereford cows? I suspect, if he was sucessful, he bred a Holstein cow with a Angus bull and then bred her offspring to a Angus bull. Or Hereford. The point is, and the focus of my concern with this posting is that crossing Hereford cows with Holstein bull is dangerous. The other way around isn't. 

Mastitus and dead quarters isn't a breeding problem.


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## CCCC (Nov 21, 2011)

Got off topic of concerns, Sorry-just following up on other post.

The F1's came from holstein cows bred to angus bulls which will work better. Not sure of frame score on the hereford cows in question or average BW and age. Same would go for the holstein bull and BW EPD. If it was my cows I would have concerns on the size of calves, but the birthweight of the calf comes from 1/2 the cow and 1/2 the bull. Not just the bull.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Gregg Alexander said:


> You did not state if these were grown cows or 1st calf heifers. How many did he bred? How long did he stay? Left a lot of questions. If they have had a calf before should have any more problems than normal. If heifers just have the Vet check the pelvic opening to see if the heifer has enough room to have a calf , regardless of who the bull is.


 It's a mix of heifers and cows. I believe the heifers are the offspring of of these particular cows if that makes a difference. None of them have ever had birthing problems before, but they've always been bred to other Herefords so...

No one knows for sure how long the bull was in with them yet. Both the owner of the bull and the owner of the cows went on a fishing trip and came back to find the bull in with the cows. Could be up to 2 days, could be a few hours. I'm told the bull looked 'lazy, tired, and had little interest in the girls' so these guys both figured he'd had plenty of time with them. I haven't done any breeding yet so I just assume these guys know what they are talking about.


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

In just 2 days the bull may not have bred but 1 or 2 of them. If they were mine , here's what I would do. Starting day one after the trip , heat check every morning and night, write down any cows that are in heat. Do this and you narrow down to the ones that might have been exposed to the bull. I would this for 45 days. Those if any that were bred , get a vet check on them and the result will be open or bred to the jumper bull. Was there a hereford bull in with the cows when the jumper bull got into the pasture? If yes , chances are they fought until one became the dominant. JMO


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Gregg Alexander said:


> In just 2 days the bull may not have bred but 1 or 2 of them. If they were mine , here's what I would do. Starting day one after the trip , heat check every morning and night, write down any cows that are in heat. Do this and you narrow down to the ones that might have been exposed to the bull. I would this for 45 days. Those if any that were bred , get a vet check on them and the result will be open or bred to the jumper bull. Was there a hereford bull in with the cows when the jumper bull got into the pasture? If yes , chances are they fought until one became the dominant. JMO


 No bull in with them. He breeds AI and had them separated for breeding in the near future.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

OK, I think you mean the cows were all open. If he was soon to be breeding the whole bunch, he might have had them cycling together. If that&#8217;s the case, either none were bred or all were bred, depending on where the heat cycle was when the Holstein broke in.

Most of this makes no sense to me. If I had a herd of Herefords about to be bred AI and a dairy bull foiled my plans, I&#8217;d give them a shot and be done with it. Instead, he has taken the &#8220;Wait and see&#8221; approach?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

When I worked in Montana a neighboring rancher had an interesting breeding scheme. His herd was all Brown Swiss/Angus cross. He would run Angus bulls for a couple of years, and Brown Swiss for a couple years. Of course all heifers were bred Angus. These were range cattle. Come weaning time the cows looked like warmed over death, but the calves were as big as the cows!


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

haypoint said:


> OK, I think you mean the cows were all open. If he was soon to be breeding the whole bunch, he might have had them cycling together. If thatâs the case, either none were bred or all were bred, depending on where the heat cycle was when the Holstein broke in.
> 
> Most of this makes no sense to me. If I had a herd of Herefords about to be bred AI and a dairy bull foiled my plans, Iâd give them a shot and be done with it. Instead, he has taken the âWait and seeâ approach?


 Remember that I'm answering 2nd hand here. I haven't talked to the guy in a few days but last we spoke he was planning on letting it ride yeah. Between what he's read and what you guys have said here he's willing to take the risk and see if he can get some interesting heifers out of the batch.



I know he HAD a Hereford bull at one time. I thought he still had it but maybe not. Or maybe he wanted to bring in new blood? Honestly I'm not sure. I don't know all the particulars on how he runs his operation, though I do pick his brain fairly often for tips and tricks. That he's willing to take a chance doesn't surprise me that much though. One of the reasons we get along is because we're both 'outside the box' thinkers.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"birthweight of the calf comes from 1/2 the cow and 1/2 the bull. Not just the bull."

Ever try on a pair of pants that are between the size you wore in Middle School and the size you now wear? Too small is too small.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

haypoint said:


> "birthweight of the calf comes from 1/2 the cow and 1/2 the bull. Not just the bull."
> 
> Ever try on a pair of pants that are between the size you wore in Middle School and the size you now wear? Too small is too small.


 Now that's funny right there!


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