# Why can't I ever grow peppers????



## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

I've tried for a few years now, and every time I plant peppers, I get none. Never any bell peppers! The plants get really big, I get a few flowers, I don't notice any spots, or yellowing, or bugs on the plants at all. They seem perfectly healthy.
I can grow hot peppers like mad. I always get lots. I've tried growing from seed, and purchasing seedlings. Still, never any peppers. 
So anybody have any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong???
Thanks!


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Stop trying to grow bells.

They don't produce much here either. Instead, cubannellas produce a LOT!!!

If you are set on bells, I've had some luck with "Purple Beauty" bells. Those are the only ones I've gotten to produce well here. I'm zone 5, NW indiana near the lake/michigan


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

I have the same problem, my bell peppers seem to suffer from some type of mosiac. Never tried the cubanelles, are they suitable for stuffing? Ones I see listed in the seed catalog seem to be long and slender, not blocky like a bell.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

my neighbor stuffs em...the don't stand up like bells when you stuff em. Good frying pepper.

But around here, its better then trying to grow bells. We jsut don;t ahve a long enough season for them.


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

I'll try that next year for sure..... I know in about a week the grocery stores here will be flooded with huge amounts of red sheperd peppers? I think they're called..... long slender red ones grown locally. Maybe your right Nickie, I won't have luck with bells.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

strawhouse said:


> I'll try that next year for sure..... I know in about a week the grocery stores here will be flooded with huge amounts of red sheperd peppers? I think they're called..... long slender red ones grown locally. Maybe your right Nickie, I won't have luck with bells.


I tried for a few years before I figured out it just wasn't ME lol. Other peppers do great for me.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

Are you growing a bell pepper specifically for the north? Lots of times the weather, too cool, too hot, messes with pollination. Keep evenly moist.

I'm waiting for my bells to ripen, red, orange, yellow. Lots of peppers still green. I'm in northern Ohio.

Something else I thought of is check pH and don't overfertilize. Too much nitro, and all you'll get is a leafy plan.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Super big healthy pepper plants mean that the soil is too rich, expecially nitrogen. Some of the poorest soils often produce the best peppers. Plant them in a area which hasn't had any manure or compost for a few years. Or, designate an area for no high-nitrogen fertilizing in the future and have that for peppers. I had a few leftover pepper plants and put them in the home gardens. There is a 5' tall Christmas Bells plant with all of 2 or 3 fruit on it!

Martin


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

NickieL said:


> my neighbor stuffs em...the don't stand up like bells when you stuff em. Good frying pepper.
> 
> But around here, its better then trying to grow bells. We jsut don;t ahve a long enough season for them.


I can grow them well here in Minnesota.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Haven't found a pepper that I could not grow here but then I also haven't tried them all. Peter peppers are the only ones that I've found to be the slowest to set fruit and then barely have some red ones by frost. This year, we're growing Beaver Dam, Bhut Jalokia, Big Bertha, Carnival Mix, Cayenne, Christmas Bells, Garden Salsa, Giant Marconi, Super Chili, Sweet Banana, and an unknown sweet Ukrainian variety. Most are doing quite well under field conditions which means only rainwater since transplanting. Only Beaver Dam reached the 3' height while most everything else is around 2' high.

Martin


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Well, all I can say is, all other peppers set fruit like crazy all summer long...

when I grow bells, I get one or two and then frost hits even before they are a decent size....
my neighbors down the street have the same issue, not matter how early they start them in their green house so I can only tell you what goes on around here. Disbelieve it if you wish...but the farms around here end up selling bells they buy else where but loads of other peppers from their own fields.

Sure as heck not gonna waste space in MY garden for something that just doesn't produce.  Some of us have limited space and can't have a row of 50 to get a few bells.


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Nickie, I have had the same problem and this year I grew Corno di toro peppers and they did better, but still not amazing. I have decided that for the few peppers I need each year to can my salsa, I will just pick up a half bushel or so at the farmer's market rather than frustrate myself further. Hot peppers grow like mad but sweet peppers not so much--although people are right that bell peppers ARE the hardest so you might have been luck with a cubanella. 

I know for a fact that my lack of peppers forming is not related to a high-nitrogen level in the soil...I think the climate is to blame.


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

Well, too much nitrogen might make sense here..... they're new beds last year and we dumped loads of manure into them from the goat shed.
I'll try a few other varieties, and a couple of bells just in case, next year and see how it goes. 
We do have a short season here, but I know quite a few people that have a pretty good peppers crop. Come to think of it though, their soil is crap, and they complain about not much else growing. 
Thanks for everyone's input!


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm going to try King of the North next year. The first year I had a horrible time with sweet peppers. Then I started using raised beds with organic fertilizer because I live in an area with poor soil drainage and that changed everything. They are high maintenance.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Phoebesmum said:


> Nickie, I have had the same problem and this year I grew Corno di toro peppers and they did better, but still not amazing. I have decided that for the few peppers I need each year to can my salsa, I will just pick up a half bushel or so at the farmer's market rather than frustrate myself further. Hot peppers grow like mad but sweet peppers not so much--although people are right that bell peppers ARE the hardest so you might have been luck with a cubanella.
> 
> I know for a fact that my lack of peppers forming is not related to a high-nitrogen level in the soil...I think the climate is to blame.


Cubannellas work with others in my neighborhood too, every year they perform well. Even the lady who's never gardened before did just fine with cubanellas. That's why I suggest them  I start mine by seed, others get their plants from the nurseries round here and they do great.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I cannot grow them from seeds, but if I buy little plants they grow just fine.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

OK- from the voice of inexperience............
I generally don't like bell peppers but I did try to grow them twice. The first time I had plants (at least those that survived the slugs) but no mature peppers. I then read that the plants have to be consistantly a higher temperature than my area supplied at night. So the next year I did a floating row cover and the plants did set fruit and they matured.
But it was too much bother with the cover on and off daily again as I didn't really use them anyway.
I do live in a very different climate than you too. The fog rolls in almost every night and temperatures are never consistantly over 60 degrees especially at night.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

where I want to said:


> OK- from the voice of inexperience............
> I generally don't like bell peppers but I did try to grow them twice. The first time I had plants (at least those that survived the slugs) but no mature peppers. I then read that the plants have to be consistantly a higher temperature than my area supplied at night. So the next year I did a floating row cover and the plants did set fruit and they matured.
> But it was too much bother with the cover on and off daily again as I didn't really use them anyway.
> I do live in a very different climate than you too. The fog rolls in almost every night and temperatures are never consistantly over 60 degrees especially at night.


I hear ya, why fight nature when something else will do well with the conditions you already have?! 

It makes life SO much easier and gardening so much less time consuming and expensive.


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## elkwc (Jun 3, 2007)

I agree with Martin. On another forum I recently stated what he did. A poster said they had 3-4 tall plants and taller and no fruit. I said with plants that big you have too much fertilizer. On about everything in the garden besides garlic and sweet corn if I feed at all I use a feed high in P and average in K and low in N. This develops a good root system, stout bushy plants and they usually set fruit well. I've had good fruit set even in this record setting heat on my sweet/bell peppers although some were set out late and heavy set on the NM chile types, jalapenos and other hot types. The same thing goes for tomato plants. A lot of my plants will only get 5-6 ft tall depending on variety but load up well. If I grow an 8-9 ft plant they usually have very low fruit set and production. You can overfeed real easy. Just my opinion. Jay


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

See thats the thing though, I NEVER have and never WILL use fertilizer. Only my homemade compost, and once in a while depending on what I'm planting where, wood ashes.

Buying and using fertilizers, pesticides, etc lessens my independence. I have little enough as it is, so I grab onto what I can while I can. which is kind of the point of "homesteading" in my mind.


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm like Nickie.
My current gardening method is plant them and hope they grow. I worked some goat manure / compost into some beds in spring, and did nothing else other than weed.
The peppers were one of the few plants the stinking groundhog didn't eat down, I had high hopes for them. I will have a bumber crop of birdhouse gourds. Too bad I can't eat those!


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> See thats the thing though, I NEVER have and never WILL use fertilizer. Only my homemade compost, and once in a while depending on what I'm planting where, wood ashes.
> 
> Buying and using fertilizers, pesticides, etc lessens my independence. I have little enough as it is, so I grab onto what I can while I can. which is kind of the point of "homesteading" in my mind.


I don't know if you realize what you just wrote. You claim to grow good vegetables but without ever using any fertilizer? You can't grow anything for very long without fertilizer. 

Martin


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## dragonjaze (Sep 8, 2010)

Just picked these today from my garden. Grew them from seed in the Chicago suburbs, so they WILL grow up here.










Not the biggest, but they sure are good looking  My bell and jalapeno peppers are doing wonderfully for this first time gardener!:happy:


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Paquebot said:


> I don't know if you realize what you just wrote. You claim to grow good vegetables but without ever using any fertilizer? You can't grow anything for very long without fertilizer.
> 
> Martin


Been growing jsut fine for 5 years now....I do add compost, grass clipings, mulch, hay, critter droppings.......and it's way better then when i started with it. It works just fine for me. Just ask my 12 foot sunflower and other mutant veggies.

Here is today's harvest......
and I get this much and more every day out of my tiny postage stamp garden.









You certainly do NOT have to go buy fertilizers to have a good garden. Rotation and mulching do a lot. Green manures too. People survived generations without "miracle grow" But you are welcome to come see my garden in person to see how "it's not possible"


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

dragonjaze said:


> Just picked these today from my garden. Grew them from seed in the Chicago suburbs, so they WILL grow up here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, they WILL grow, never said they wouldn't. They are just not even close to as productive as other sweet peppers. I grow mine from seed have been harvesting several a day off of 3 plants all summer long. So for me, to get one or two bells is just not worth the space, and space is an issue here 

Nice looking peppers BTW.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> Been growing jsut fine for 5 years now....I do add compost, grass clipings, mulch, hay, critter droppings.......and it's way better then when i started with it. It works just fine for me. Just ask my 12 foot sunflower and other mutant veggies.


Just what do you think all of that stuff is that you are adding? Surely you've been gardening long enough to know that anything containing any amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium is fertilizer when added to the soil? Saying that you got a 12' sunflower without any fertilizer is almost as bad as saying that bell peppers can't be grown in the North! That sunflower used a lot of NPK fertilizer to reach 12' and Michigan is one of the leading states for bell pepper production.

Martin


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

I have never grown a bell pepper plant that had only 1 or 2 peppers. I wonder what variety they were. Mine are so loaded that they need support or the branches break off from the weight of the peppers. If a lot of peppers are wanted, there are varieties known for setting a lot of peppers like Fat and Sassy, etc. I have grown Gourmet (orange, my favorite) for 3 years now. Lots of peppers. Just waiting for them to color up fully. Looking forward to stuffing these babies or grilling them.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> Just what do you think all of that stuff is that you are adding? Surely you've been gardening long enough to know that anything containing any amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium is fertilizer when added to the soil? Saying that you got a 12' sunflower without any fertilizer is almost as bad as saying that bell peppers can't be grown in the North! That sunflower used a lot of NPK fertilizer to reach 12' and Michigan is one of the leading states for bell pepper production.
> 
> Martin


I think it's just a misunderstanding of what is meant by "fertilizer". Perhaps some of our modern gardeners believe fertilizer is only bought in bags at the store and forget that it is also natural elements we add to the soil, such as manure, compost and such, or in modern speak "organic fertilizer".


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks Martin, I was sitting here thinking, "wow, I must really be a newbie, cuz I thought compost and wood ash were fertilizers??" 

dragon, those look great! I'm so jealous!

Nickie, I'm envious of your cukes, I've only had 3 so far outof 3' x 10' bed! stinking groundhog ate all the plants. And no red tomatos here yet! I have one just turning red..... I`ve been having dreams of tomato sandwiches for weeks now. are the red peppers your cubanelles?


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

strawhouse said:


> Thanks Martin, I was sitting here thinking, "wow, I must really be a newbie, cuz I thought compost and wood ash were fertilizers??"
> 
> dragon, those look great! I'm so jealous!
> 
> Nickie, I'm envious of your cukes, I've only had 3 so far outof 3' x 10' bed! stinking groundhog ate all the plants. And no red tomatos here yet! I have one just turning red..... I`ve been having dreams of tomato sandwiches for weeks now. are the red peppers your cubanelles?


those are ancho peppers, habaneros, and red chilis.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

strawhouse said:


> Thanks Martin, I was sitting here thinking, "wow, I must really be a newbie, cuz I thought compost and wood ash were fertilizers??"


But, compost and wood ashes ARE fertilizers! Same with any matter which contains any combination of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. If one is adding any of those to the soil, it's fertilizer. If one never uses any fertilizer, the law of diminishing returns takes over and the result is soil nearly totally lacking in nutrients. If one says that they can grow something without fertilizer, then that would be the same as claiming that they can grow it in sterile sand. Can't be done. If you add compost, wood ashes, grass trimmings, food scraps, leaves, or manure, one is adding fertilizer. There needs be no distinction between purchased or home made, bagged or bulk, processed or unprocessed, organic or non-organic, since all are simply fertilizer and may be any combination mentioned in this sentence. 

Martin


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Martin, I think most of us understand that. Reading Niki's posts I understood that she meant bought, bagged fertilizers. One can split hairs all day long, but I understood it differently.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

JuliaAnn said:


> Martin, I think *most* of us understand that. Reading Niki's posts I understood that she meant bought, bagged fertilizers. One can split hairs all day long, but I understood it differently.


*Most* does not mean *all*. How you read it does not mean that all others read it the same way. If you've read as many posts on this forum as I have, you will know that there is always the 10% who do not read things as you might. It's those 10% who are the most ignorant and willing to take what they see as verbatim. The 90% who already know don't ask questions. The other 10% are those whom I look out for. 

Martin


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Some folks just thrive on split hairs I think, Julia. I usually don't pay them any attention...(most are ignore so I don't have to see them  )

Now if someone I've addressed doesn't understand they can ask me for clerification and I will elaborate if I was not clear. That is, if the hair splitters give me time to do so.


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

I think it's so hard to get a point across through text anyways. 
(for example, I meant to say earlier that I didn't want to ask if compost was fertilizer, because I thought it was such a newbie question I'd look dumb! That's why I thanked Martin!)
Being a "younger" gardener, I often take the term fertilizer to mean chemicals. 
Unfortunately, I find when talking gardening anywhere but here, it does mean chemicals.

Thanks again everyone for all of your help!

p.s...... I noticed a lot of tiny flower buds forming on my peppers today....


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> Some folks just thrive on split hairs I think, Julia. I usually don't pay them any attention...(most are ignore so I don't have to see them  )
> 
> Now if someone I've addressed doesn't understand they can ask me for clerification and I will elaborate if I was not clear. That is, if the hair splitters give me time to do so.


The original issue was why Strawhouse could get lots of plants but no peppers. That was quickly solved by all agreeing that there was more than likely too much nitrogen fertilizers involved. Next issue was that supposedly nobody in a certain part of the US could grow bell peppers. That was not agreed on. From the looks of it, not using fertilizer then apparently became a smoke screen to cover up the non-growing claim. That one reply totally screwed up in claiming that no fertilizer was used but fertilizer products were mentioned. 

If you feel offended, Nickie, you're a big girl, get over it. Hair-splitting is indeed necessary at times inasmuch as it potentially means the difference between a successful harvest or no harvest. If one isn't gardening as if his or her life depends upon it, why bother gardening at all?

Martin


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Not offended at all, I just ignore your constant hair spliting for the most part(it does get old...). Like i said, I know my neighborhood, my yard, my neighbors much better then you, and I stand by my own assesment and with those around me as I live here. Whether my neighbors apply (chemical) fertlizer or not, yeilds HERE are very low on bells. Not just home gardens, but the neighboring small farmers too, and they DO apply (chemical) fertilizers. Its not that they don't bloom, they just don't bloom in a timely manner and so by the time the cold comes there is very little to harvest from them. Micro climetes vary. This is just how it is HERE and perhaps other places. Is THAT clear enough for you Paqubot? No need to get your britches in a bunch. YOUR way doesn't have to be the ONLY way around here.

"If one isn't gardening as if his or her life depends upon it, why bother gardening at all?"

Some garden for fun. I certainly enjoy it. But if I had to rely on peppers around here, it would NOT be bells.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

strawhouse said:


> I think it's so hard to get a point across through text anyways.
> (for example, I meant to say earlier that I didn't want to ask if compost was fertilizer, because I thought it was such a newbie question I'd look dumb! That's why I thanked Martin!)
> Being a "younger" gardener, I often take the term fertilizer to mean chemicals.
> Unfortunately, I find when talking gardening anywhere but here, it does mean chemicals.
> ...


And inasmuch as we're all in a learning mood today, we can have a few more lessons on fertilizer. Worm castings are a fertilizer and come in a bag. Bat guano is fertilizer and comes in a bag. Same goes for blood meal, bone meal, sulfur, rock phosphate, sulfate of potash, and many others which are made up of natural chemical elements. The chemical N is the same element in grass as it is in blood. Same goes for P and K. Chicken manure would contain about the same chemicals as a manufactured 2-1-1 bagged fertilizer. Even the lowly worm castings barely are able to make it up to 1-0-0 but that 1% nitrogen is a chemical. 

In gardening, the organic movement leaders led everyone to think that all manufactured fertilizers are bad. About the same time, other factors were telling us how bad chemicals were. Organics tied the two together and found a big audience unwilling or unable to understand it. Chemicals caused physical problems and are therefore bad. Fertilizer is made from chemicals and therefore also is bad. The "lambs" didn't bother to learn that the very elements which are supposed to be bad are the very elements which keep us and all plantlife alive. 

Splitting hairs or facts? Grass clippings are a chemical fertilizer. Compost is a chemical fertilizer. Wood ashes are a chemical fertilizer. Get a grasp on that and educate your friends and neighbors. Ignorance is no excuse now with the Internet. Nobody has to a "lamb" unless they really want to be one. The organic people make money off of misleading a certain minority of gullible people. As a result, the big name garden fertilizer manufacturers like Miracle Grow and Espoma have organic products and laugh all the way to the bank. Either way, same chemical elements in each product. 

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> Not offended at all, I just ignore your constant hair spliting for the most part(it does get old...). Like i said, I know my neighborhood, my yard, my neighbors much better then you, and I stand by my own assesment and with those around me as I live here. Whether my neighbors apply (chemical) fertlizer or not, yeilds HERE are very low on bells. Not just home gardens, but the neighboring small farmers too, and they DO apply (chemical) fertilizers. Its not that they don't bloom, they just don't bloom in a timely manner and so by the time the cold comes there is very little to harvest from them. Micro climetes vary. This is just how it is HERE and perhaps other places. Is THAT clear enough for you Paqubot? No need to get your britches in a bunch. YOUR way doesn't have to be the ONLY way around here.
> 
> "If one isn't gardening as if his or her life depends upon it, why bother gardening at all?"
> 
> Some garden for fun. I certainly enjoy it. But if I had to rely on peppers around here, it would NOT be bells.


Good that we've come to the understanding that anything that applies to growing bell peppers in your tiny little microclimate does not apply to the rest of North America. Therefore it would appear that normal advice, such as I would give, would be useful to the other probable 99.9999% or the available gardening area whereas whatever you would have to offer would be useless. Thus it would appear that my way may indeed be the ONLY way since your way doesn't appear to be working! 

Martin


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

And you know this person's micro-climate? you've been there personally? Read again. He said there are lots of buds now. Gee...seems like he may have a micro climate too that is diffrent then yours. How many is he going to get to a decent size for eatting before frost?! How many will mature? My advice to TRY A DIFFERENT pepper is NOT WRONG. It's common sence. It may or may not work for him but it's something TO TRY.
YOU NOR I can tell what is really going on THERE at his location. IF he had to depend on his garden for food, it would make MUCH MORE SENCE to find what pepper GROWS BEST THERE without fancy season extenders and all that. We can only give guesses as to the issue and it is up to the OP to decided what they are. So, giveing opposing ideas (not just YOUR ideas Paqubot) is being more helpful to the OP then just one. No, I'm not going to bow down to you because you _think_ you know it all. Blasting people with diffrening ideas, whether or not you feel they are not something YOU would agree with is NOT helpful to the topic and NOT helpful to the OP.


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

Wow what a thread! Anyway my bells did very little. I garden organically. Good friend of mine,his bells had same result. he lives four miles from me and used no fertilizers. I believe it may be a pollination thing, not sure.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I believe peppers (and tomatoes) are self fertile. They have both male and female flower parts.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Well, Neckie, the OP's problem is not a micro-climate but an excessive nutrient problem. We already agreed on that based upon the information supplied by the OP. The late budding of the plants is also quite normal under those conditions and I am seeing it here also on my over-fed pepper plants. That situation is applying to thousands and thousands of gardens throughout North America right now regardless of any supposed micro-climate. Same thing is happening to every gardener who gave an overdose of nitrogen to their pepper plants. 

Right now, I can walk through over 100 plots in a community garden and see an identical variety of pepper growing in perhaps adjacent plots and with growth pattern so different that they would be be recognized as the same variety. Some gardeners just rely on whatever nutrients may have been leftover from whomever had the plot the previous year. Others bring in a lot of horse or cow manure or other fertilizers. My own "micro-climate" Christmas Bells pepper came to be due to it being planted where my tomato hole mix pile was for 2 years. (Half compost and half horse manure.) Two jalapeÃ±o plants are partly affected but not quite as tall. They also have reached their maximum height and loading up with blossoms and small fruit. Their excessive growth would be an advantage in southern or semi-tropical areas as it would later produce an excess of fruit, just as would happen with the OP if the plants could live through Christmas. They have reacted exactly they should for the soil conditions that I planted them into. 

But no matter what variety of pepper is planted in soil too rich in nitrogen, the results are the same as what the OP is experiencing. Micro-climates would not produce the same results unless also combined with excessive nitrogen. Ohio State Extension calls for growing peppers in soil having moderate fertility and fertilizer at a 1-2-2 ratio. That means only half as much nitrogen as the two chemicals. Grass clippings and manures are the opposite of what is needed for peppers. That's why I have often suggested relegating a specific area for them where the soil is poorer. With that knowledge, you might find that even you can grow them.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1618.html 

Martin


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Paquebot said:


> Well, Neckie, the OP's problem is not a micro-climate but an excessive nutrient problem. We already agreed on that based upon the information supplied by the OP. The late budding of the plants is also quite normal under those conditions and I am seeing it here also on my over-fed pepper plants. That situation is applying to thousands and thousands of gardens throughout North America right now regardless of any supposed micro-climate. Same thing is happening to every gardener who gave an overdose of nitrogen to their pepper plants.
> 
> Right now, I can walk through over 100 plots in a community garden and see an identical variety of pepper growing in perhaps adjacent plots and with growth pattern so different that they would be be recognized as the same variety. Some gardeners just rely on whatever nutrients may have been leftover from whomever had the plot the previous year. Others bring in a lot of horse or cow manure or other fertilizers. My own "micro-climate" Christmas Bells pepper came to be due to it being planted where my tomato hole mix pile was for 2 years. (Half compost and half horse manure.) Two jalapeÃ±o plants are partly affected but not quite as tall. They also have reached their maximum height and loading up with blossoms and small fruit. Their excessive growth would be an advantage in southern or semi-tropical areas as it would later produce an excess of fruit, just as would happen with the OP if the plants could live through Christmas. They have reacted exactly they should for the soil conditions that I planted them into.
> 
> ...



Now _THIS_ post, I actually find informative and helpful. Musch better then blasting folks harshly.:bouncy: I MAY try bells AGAIN next year, but I will be sticking with my tried and true peppers that go at it all summer long with peppers. Don't know if my soil has too much nitrogen, it's a silty clay. My beets get to be the size of cantelopes though, and I thought nitrogen made leaves, not roots on the root crops get big.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Ky-Jeeper said:


> Wow what a thread! Anyway my bells did very little. I garden organically. Good friend of mine,his bells had same result. he lives four miles from me and used no fertilizers. I believe it may be a pollination thing, not sure.


If you had a few days with temperatures in the 90s, that will cause pepper plants to drop their blossoms. Shortage of water at critical times will also cause blossom drop. Much of the system in the first foot and subject to drought damage. Peppers may have originated in the tropics where it's warm but it also rains every other day!

Native bees and honey bees will work pepper blossoms since they do produce nectar, unlike tomatoes, and isolation of 500' is suggested for minimum purity. Hot and sweet may be grown together and freely cross. However, unlike a common myth, it will not result in "hot" sweet peppers. 

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> Now _THIS_ post, I actually find informative and helpful. Musch better then blasting folks harshly.:bouncy: I MAY try bells AGAIN next year, but I will be sticking with my tried and true peppers that go at it all summer long with peppers. Don't know if my soil has too much nitrogen, it's a silty clay. My beets get to be the size of cantelopes though, and I thought nitrogen made leaves, not roots on the root crops get big.


This was an interesting thread where helping one member brought out so much anger in another who apparently is an annual failure. I suppose that I should just have sympathized over your inability to grow bell peppers but that was initially only secondary to your initial claims. It won't matter to you since you now do not dare change your methods and later brag about the great results. You have to stay the same no matter what sources advice otherwise.

It was worth my time to educate more people about both fertilizers and growing peppers in general. Reaction to it by some was normal. Education is mandated to cover the equivalent of 12 years but there is nothing to prevent learning to stop after 6. After that, there are way too many who hate the teacher and all he or she stands for. You are out of high school now and don't have to learn any more. If you go to school now and don't like the professor, one can suggest is to change courses.

Martin 

PS: I do have beets as big as some of my cantaloupes but don't have any _cantelopes_ in my garden. Does that mean that father hid the ladder?


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Wow...you are a real piece of work. Going on ignore list. You are not worth my time.


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## dragonjaze (Sep 8, 2010)

who knew a thread about peppers could get so...(wait for it)...hot!

sorry, someone had to do it!


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> Wow...you are a real piece of work. Going on ignore list. You are not worth my time.


Hallelujah! Sorry that we failed in suggesting that you should be able to grow bell peppers. Everyone is doomed to fail at something or another. 

Now if anyone has any other advice to give to Strawhouse, or any other serious gardener, we can get back to the topic. We've covered just about every factor and proved that I am probably not the only one who aleady has several gallon ZipLock bags with diced sweet peppers in the freezer. If you know any secrets to growing bell peppers, and which haven't been documented in the past 500+ years, here's your chance. 

Martin


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

To the OP, I'm sorry the thred driffted so negetivly. It's hard not to get distracted by a certain someone who insists everything is right. Been gardening for 30 years, raised by gardeners who ran a garden club and was always in gardens. I've grown bell peppers in other places just fine but side by side HERE in this location, other peppers produce much more. The same MAY be true for where you are at so there is no harm in trying and seeing if that's true for you. Never let anyone tell you that your ways can't be done. I have a freezer and pantry full of garden produce from my small lot and still plenty to harvest and give away. So I am doing things just fine. Keep trying, you will find what works for you and don't let the naysayers tell you diffrently.


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## blynn (Oct 16, 2006)

Raven12 said:


> I'm going to try King of the North next year. The first year I had a horrible time with sweet peppers. Then I started using raised beds with organic fertilizer because I live in an area with poor soil drainage and that changed everything. They are high maintenance.


I started a bunch of King of the North seedlings last spring and and the seedlings were kinda scrawny, so I didn't plant many of them. Now, it's my fault that the seedlings were scrawny, not the seeds. We need to start them under some lights next year. I ended up planting one in a pot in the back yard, and it was kinda doing okay. Had one pepper on it until I accidentally knocked it over this morning and the pepper fell off. Quite tasty, it was. I gave two of the seedlings to my sister and she has them in pots and says they are producing for her quite nicely. She used organic miracle grow. 

Have some other variety called Blushing Beauty, and those have produced more for me, but a ton of the buds keep falling off and I am not sure what I am doing wrong.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> To the OP, I'm sorry the thred driffted so negetivly. It's hard not to get distracted by a certain someone who insists everything is right. Been gardening for 30 years, raised by gardeners who ran a garden club and was always in gardens. I've grown bell peppers in other places just fine but side by side HERE in this location, other peppers produce much more. The same MAY be true for where you are at so there is no harm in trying and seeing if that's true for you. Never let anyone tell you that your ways can't be done. I have a freezer and pantry full of garden produce from my small lot and still plenty to harvest and give away. So I am doing things just fine. Keep trying, you will find what works for you and don't let the naysayers tell you diffrently.


But, the only issue here is bell peppers and it's apparent that they are the one thing that you can't grow. As stated, everything about growing peppers has been pretty well documented since European settlement of this hemisphere. If something doesn't work somewhere, there's a reason. If one can't find a reason, then one isn't looking. Peppers are sensitive to soil nutrition levels. You are surrounded by states and areas which do grow bell peppers with no problems. Your inability and unwillingness to accept possible reasons for your failures only dooms you to continued failure. If you had any advice to give, based on how you now do it, I doubt if many would heed it. That's the cold hard facts. As it is, I would suggest that you use your computer knowledge to seek out the NPK values of what you are using for fertilizer for your bell peppers. Especially so since you know exactly what they need. Also monitor the amount of water and give them twice what you would for a hot pepper. Then study that OhioLine link for additional tips. If you ain't getting good results with the way you're doing it now, time for a change. If not, best we can do is all bow our heads and pray that you are able to withstand a lifetime of being a self-proclaimed bell pepper failure! 

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

blynn said:


> Have some other variety called Blushing Beauty, and those have produced more for me, but a ton of the buds keep falling off and I am not sure what I am doing wrong.


Knowing your location, what was the rainfall total for July there? I suspect that you were in the same dry month that we had. Almost everything that set in June filled in real good during the dry spell. Some of the bigger bells stopped producing buds and some began losing lower leaves. 1.75" of rain around the 29th kicked them all right back into production again. Sweet Ukrainian, in fact, didn't set any fruit until after that rain but it's an upright bell rather than a hanger. With a few exceptions, most of my peppers are in a prairie field where the only water is what falls from above or is found below. Soil had some cow manure spread 4 years ago, horse manure the following year, and only shredded leaves this spring. Two years of garlic preceded them. Only Beaver Dams are over 2' tall and then barely tops at 3'.

Again, regulate nutrients and water as that's all that peppers ask of you. Few diseases or bugs to worry about so they are almost a no-brainer if you give them what little they ask for. 

Martin


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

NickieL said:


> Wow...you are a real piece of work. Going on ignore list. You are not worth my time.


Well, he can be a bit persnickety, but I wouldn't put him on ignore. He is quite knowledgeable 'bout growin' things in the ground.


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

dragonjaze said:


> who knew a thread about peppers could get so...(wait for it)...hot!
> 
> sorry, someone had to do it!


haaaaahahahahahahah!


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

gilberte said:


> Well, he can be a bit persnickety, but I wouldn't put him on ignore. He is quite knowledgeable 'bout growin' things in the ground.


I don't give a hoot about how knowledgeable someone is if they can't speak to people with respect and decency. It really distracts and discredits what information they could have. He's earned his ignore status.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

strawhouse said:


> I've tried for a few years now, and every time I plant peppers, I get none. Never any bell peppers! The plants get really big, I get a few flowers, I don't notice any spots, or yellowing, or bugs on the plants at all. They seem perfectly healthy.
> I can grow hot peppers like mad. I always get lots. I've tried growing from seed, and purchasing seedlings. Still, never any peppers.
> So anybody have any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong???
> Thanks!


Being of the same genus Capsicum annuum, you should have the same success with bells as the hot ones, providing all other conditions are equal. The only information you give which gives me some idea is that you live in Ontario. I would take a look at the Cornell site: http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/homegardening/sceneb771.html
which suggests varieties popular in New York, which may approximate some of the conditions you may have where you live--and you didn't say just how far north, or if you are close to a Great Lake which might moderate your last frost date. I would take a look at whether you are planting them in colder early climate--which can tend to stifle the early growth--which bells need to produce the strength to flower and produce fruits. Here is an Ontario website which offers some varieties that you may find suited to your climate needs, too: http://www.hawthornfarm.ca/peppers.html

You might also try Vesey's Seeds.. I have ordered from them and have had good results. http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/

You didn't say how you fertilize or what you use, so I wouldn't speculate on whether you have used too much nitrogen or not, until I could see the results of the soil test for your planting area. Peppers do need nitrogen, but it should not be applied in a "hot" condition right at planting time. Based on your soil test, you can choose your planting area for the next season and incorporate the nutrients ahead of time so as to avoid too rapid early growth. After blossoming, you can apply nutrients by sidebanding or in liquid form. Steady, early growth is the goal to make a good bush and to hold back any early flowering.

Your pH level is important and will give you some clues about the phosphorus uptake. On some soils, especially clay or silt, a pH too low will lock up phosphorus so that it will not be usable by the plant. You should overcome this by application of some nutrients into the planting hole in liquid form. (One old-timey recommendation is to drop several match heads into the hole at plantiing time....) Attending to the phosphorus, and to some extent, potassium, is probably as important, or more so, than nitrogen.

Peppers, bells more so than hots, need a summmertime temperature condition in a 'goldilocks' range to promote blossom set. Too much or too little will cause them to drop--and this may be the greatest cause of pepper failure. This website, while it is from Oklahoma, says it better than I can: http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1041/F-6030web.pdf

It also has a lot more growing information which might be of help.

Other considerations(which you may know already, since you are having success with the hot ones): pepper roots can go very deep, but most of the uptake action takes place in the uppermost ones--and they spread out considerably--and those are almost at the surface. Too deep cultivation and weeding will shear them off, causing a setback. Since peppers take lots of watering to produce plump, juicy ones, I would suggest making a shallow trench at planting time so you can get the water to the root areas without runoff. Another thing I would suggest is to wait until after flowering to mulch them. The goal in a northern area would be to get as much soil warmth as possible, early on, for that steady growth they need. And, I would look at an open, wide spacing--in full sunshine, all day long, with no early morning or late evening shade to slow them down. 

I certainly wouldn't give up on peppers, but I sure would try a few different ideas. I hope you have found something useful here........

geo


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## frankva (May 21, 2009)

geo in mi said:


> The goal in a northern area would be to get as much soil warmth as possible, early on, for that steady growth they need. And, I would look at an open, wide spacing--in full sunshine, all day long, with no early morning or late evening shade to slow them down.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't give up on peppers, but I sure would try a few different ideas. I hope you have found something useful here........
> 
> geo


I can confirm this in a cool climate. Big black pots, starting early in a hothouse, and spacing in full sun works.

In the ground... not so much.

Variety matters. Regular water in quick drain mix.

For me.


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## Guest123 (Oct 10, 2006)

NickieL said:


> I don't give a hoot about how knowledgeable someone is if they can't speak to people with respect and decency. It really distracts and discredits what information they could have. He's earned his ignore status.


Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them disrespectful. I agree with what he has stated making it clear to some that may not know that fertilizer does come from other sources than those purchased at a store. Paquebot has given more valuable information in the garden & plant area than any other poster on this site. He explains things so people that are not as talented in the gardening area (like myself) can understand, which is what I feel he was doing in this thread.


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## blynn (Oct 16, 2006)

Paquebot said:


> Knowing your location, what was the rainfall total for July there? I suspect that you were in the same dry month that we had. Almost everything that set in June filled in real good during the dry spell. Some of the bigger bells stopped producing buds and some began losing lower leaves. 1.75" of rain around the 29th kicked them all right back into production again. Sweet Ukrainian, in fact, didn't set any fruit until after that rain but it's an upright bell rather than a hanger. With a few exceptions, most of my peppers are in a prairie field where the only water is what falls from above or is found below. Soil had some cow manure spread 4 years ago, horse manure the following year, and only shredded leaves this spring. Two years of garlic preceded them. Only Beaver Dams are over 2' tall and then barely tops at 3'.
> 
> Again, regulate nutrients and water as that's all that peppers ask of you. Few diseases or bugs to worry about so they are almost a no-brainer if you give them what little they ask for.
> 
> Martin


Not sure what the monthly rain total was for July, but I know we did not get much rain. I remember the rain barrel being quite empty most of the time. The peppers are in pots, sometimes I thought I might be over watering them, other times thought I was underwatering them. And then of course when it does rain they get completely soaked. I figure I'll just put them in the ground next year, I'm sure someone can do them sucessfully in pots but I don't want to fuss with it again.  Thanks for sharing your experiance. 

I recently heard of a variety called garden salsa that I am going to try and find, they are a hotter pepper kinda like a jalapeno, but much bigger. I might just skip the bells completely if I can get my hands on some garden salsa seeds!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

treasureacres said:


> Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them disrespectful. I agree with what he has stated making it clear to some that may not know that fertilizer does come from other sources than those purchased at a store. Paquebot has given more valuable information in the garden & plant area than any other poster on this site. He explains things so people that are not as talented in the gardening area (like myself) can understand, which is what I feel he was doing in this thread.


Not disagreeing but the manner of the disagreement does. I remember a phrase from a novel about a person who said about herself that "I did an act of charity in such an offensive way that I should never be allowed to do it again." 

Paquebot is about the most generally knowledgeable gardening person I can think of and most generous about giving information so I do look for his postings as a way of getting better at my garden. On all subjects he chooses to post.

Does not mean my stomach if free from a twist or two when things get personal. Some of us are just more delicate flowers than others. 

Going to hide behind a wall now.......................


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## northstitch (Jul 28, 2011)

I heard one time that for peppers to set on they needed to have 40 degrees difference in night and day temp. Anyone else ever hear that ?


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

northstitch said:


> I heard one time that for peppers to set on they needed to have 40 degrees difference in night and day temp. Anyone else ever hear that ?


Not necessarily.... The Ohio State website referenced earlier, will discuss this: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1618.html

Basically, flowering and fruit setting happens best in a _range of steady temps_ between 65 to 80 degrees F. With temporary days of below or above that, the blossoms start to drop as the plant gets stressed.

geo


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

geo in mi said:


> Being of the same genus Capsicum annuum, you should have the same success with bells as the hot ones, providing all other conditions are equal. The only information you give which gives me some idea is that you live in Ontario. I would take a look at the Cornell site: http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/homegardening/sceneb771.html
> 
> geo


Thanks Geo, I'll def check that out. I'm in "northern" Ontario, Muskoka. Zone 4b. I'm going to try different varieties next year for sure.
I'm also going to learn about soil testing, and how to amend my soil as needed.
I'm a newbie, I just plant the stuff and hope it grows. 
All of the information I get is much appreciated!


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

where I want to said:


> *Not disagreeing but the manner of the disagreement does. * I remember a phrase from a novel about a person who said about herself that "I did an act of charity in such an offensive way that I should never be allowed to do it again."
> 
> Paquebot is about the most generally knowledgeable gardening person I can think of and most generous about giving information so I do look for his postings as a way of getting better at my garden. On all subjects he chooses to post.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

treasureacres said:


> Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them disrespectful. I agree with what he has stated making it clear to some that may not know that fertilizer does come from other sources than those purchased at a store. Paquebot has given more valuable information in the garden & plant area than any other poster on this site. He explains things so people that are not as talented in the gardening area (like myself) can understand, which is what I feel he was doing in this thread.


At least you are intelligent enough to read exactly what was written. I had already made the only reply that I needed to on this thread until there was a serious gaffe concerning fertilizer. I guarantee that I have forgotten more about fertilizer than anyone here knows. For some reason, the gaffee decided to cover her error by launching an attack on my gardening wisdom. Somewhere along the way, it turned into a popularity contest. I'll say this to everyone of you. I'm not here to make friends, I have way more than enough and probably don't need 1% of them. I'm here to make good gardeners out of poor gardeners and great gardeners out of good gardeners. As stated previously, and mocked for it, I garden as if my life depended upon it. If anyone doesn't think that that's right, join your local flower club instead of looking for love here. I'm of Norwegian ancestry but there is some controversy since great-great-grandfather fought for Danmark in the first Schleswig War in 1848-1851. Worldwide, we all know that people eat to live. Danes live to eat! 

Martin


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

strawhouse said:


> Thanks Geo, I'll def check that out. I'm in "northern" Ontario, Muskoka. Zone 4b. I'm going to try different varieties next year for sure.
> I'm also going to learn about soil testing, and how to amend my soil as needed.
> I'm a newbie, I just plant the stuff and hope it grows.
> All of the information I get is much appreciated!


Aha! Zone 4b....... That could be pushing the envelope a bit. I think you should find a local garden group, or the equivalent of the US Extension Agent to consult with. I see black plastic, and stone retaining walls facing the sun, in your future. You need to make a microclimate that will give a tropical perennial--planted as an annual--the 80 or so days of steady, nonvariable warmth in the range of 65-85 F (sorry I don't know how to convert easily to C....) , with the first planted fertility high in phosphorus, and the later fertility with the proper Nitrogen they need to finish up before lowering air temps slow them down as frost time approaches..... And perhaps a drip or soaker irrigation system. 

(PS, my goal is to help those who start out with a "plant and pray" attitude to keep from becoming a "plant and cuss afterward" gardener)  I still pray, though--it's a lifelong learning process for me.

geo


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

geo in mi said:


> Aha! Zone 4b....... That could be pushing the envelope a bit.


For what it's worth, I happen to be right between 4b and 5a. Thus I am well aware of how to growing in that USDA designated zone.

Martin


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

Having lived in Muskoka for almost 15 years, I can testify to the difficulties of growing bell peppers. There is an ever present cool breeze coming in off the big lakes. You need a shelter belt or a microclime to combat that little tickle of wind. Now that I'm in the Ottawa Valley, I'm roughly the same zone but the breeze is absent. My peppers are doing much better. I have very rich soil and I have massive plants with some peppers but not lots. Still, a better harvest than I ever got in Huntsville.

I and another grower who supplies me with heirloom seed both treat our peppers as bienniels. We start them from seed, grow them in the garden and then pot them up to over winter in the house. The next summer, they really produce. It works, but you have to decide how many pots of peppers you are willing to endure in your house all winter.


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## blynn (Oct 16, 2006)

rileyjo said:


> I and another grower who supplies me with heirloom seed both treat our peppers as bienniels. We start them from seed, grow them in the garden and then pot them up to over winter in the house. The next summer, they really produce. It works, but you have to decide how many pots of peppers you are willing to endure in your house all winter.


This is interesting to me, as mine are all in pots this year. When you bring them in, where you do store them in your house? Do you cut them back or cover them? What temp is the room you put them in? Do you water, or are they basically dormant? I totally want to try this!


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

rileyjo said:


> Having lived in Muskoka for almost 15 years, I can testify to the difficulties of growing bell peppers. There is an ever present cool breeze coming in off the big lakes. You need a shelter belt or a microclime to combat that little tickle of wind. Now that I'm in the Ottawa Valley, I'm roughly the same zone but the breeze is absent. My peppers are doing much better. I have very rich soil and I have massive plants with some peppers but not lots. Still, a better harvest than I ever got in Huntsville.
> 
> I and another grower who supplies me with heirloom seed both treat our peppers as bienniels. We start them from seed, grow them in the garden and then pot them up to over winter in the house. The next summer, they really produce. It works, but you have to decide how many pots of peppers you are willing to endure in your house all winter.


Ah so you understand! I live right by the lake too, when I lived a little further away, big diffrence, lots of bells but same zone #. Folks who don't live by these big lakes just don't understand the strange influence they have on the garden. :thumb: But I get so many other types of sweet peppers, I don't miss bells any. I have so many pickled and froze this year. I grew 6 plants of sweet cubanellas.:thumb: and have plenty for us and to give away too.:thumb: Had some friends over to glean whatever they wanted today, they had never been to my garden before. They were amazed how much I grew in such a small place. They told me they were getting ideas and were going to change the way they've been doing thiers.:cowboy: (But according to a certain someone, I'm not a real gardener)


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Being adjacent to lakes should have no effects on if one can or can not grow peppers. If it were, just about anywhere in Minnesota could not grow them while much of Michigan is surrounded by lakes. The main effect off water would be temperatures. If it were such a difference that peppers would be affected, then tomatoes and eggplants would also be affected. And if you look at the USDA Hardiness Zone Maps, the longer growing seasons are those closest to large bodies of water. That's why I may be in 4b but someone 150 miles northeast of me is in 5. So, adjacent lakes are almost always an asset, not a debit. 

The 4b growing zone of the OP is also not a factor just because it's in Canada. A big percentage of Minnesota and Wisconsin are Zone 3 and have no problems growing peppers. I'm certain that at least one member from right in the middle of Zone 3 reported having no problem. Therefore geography doesn't seem to be a problem since it's a known fact that all types of peppers can be grown in all 48 contiguous states covered by the USDA maps.

In the end, the only thing to blame is "operator error". That means that in all likeliehood the gardener is to blame. The prime error is failure to supply the plants with proper growing conditions. If the gardener is unable or unwilling to do that, then failure is guaranteed.

There is no one-size-fits-all soil when it comes to general gardening so one can only try to start out with an average and work up from there. All-purpose garden fertilizers are generally a 1-1-1 ratio. That an average and what is assumed to be what most gardeners apply. As a result, a higher nitrogen ratio is never recommended even for those species which do require extra nitrogen as some point in their growth. For example, a 1-2-2 ratio is recommended as a starting fertilizer for alliums but then a 1-0-0 ratio every 3 weeks during growth. Peppers also require a 1-2-2 ratio but without any additional nitrogen during their growth. Give them the conditions that they need and the pepper plants will produce as they should. If not given the proper conditions, it's not the plant's fault but the fault of the gardener. 

Martin


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## bak2tn (Dec 19, 2007)

I have one thing I do that I haven't seen mentioned, (or I might have missed it).
I always have reasonable bells probably because of long season and warm weather, But, when I have waited to plant them until it is truly warm, (no 50's at night) I have GINORMOUS quantities of all peppers, esp. bells. This year the cal wonders are the biggest bells I have ever seen. Have frozen and given away close to 4 bushels already and have much more summer to go. Also they actually beat the tomatoes which were planted after last frost date. So, perhaps waiting until the weather settles could help some of you having problems. I can remember that my Dad usually had decent luck with bells in central Maine. He would shelter them with cloches made of paper grocery bags until the hot weather. Good luck, Y'all!


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

The Ontario Climate Sone Map http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/climzoneveg.htm

is shown here for reference...... I hope *strawhouse* is sifting through all the opinions here and gaining thereby. In fact the OMAFRA site can be a good general reference for his/her gardening ideas in the future, and I would highly recommend it.

If *strawhouse* is indeed in the climate zone E, then the recommended first planting date of June 5 would tend to indicate there is a soil warmup factor to deal with, and the compression of days until the first fall frost date, could, indeed, have a negative bearing on the ability of bell peppers to grow as well as they might in other areas. And I would defer to *rileyjo's* opinion, since she gardened there for fifteen years, to confirm that. From the map, the area in question is eastward of a couple hundred miles of open water--and that might be a factor, as well as cloud cover, light intensity, elevation, and other reasons.(See the first paragraph of the article) I think *strawhouse* would be wise to find some way of providing some artificial climate enhancers, along with checking the Nitrogen factor and other considerations.

So, as Forrest Gump said, "And that's all I've got to say about that...." 

geo


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

geo in mi said:


> The Ontario Climate Sone Map http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/climzoneveg.htm
> 
> is shown here for reference...... I hope *strawhouse* is sifting through all the opinions here and gaining thereby. In fact the OMAFRA site can be a good general reference for his/her gardening ideas in the future, and I would highly recommend it.
> 
> ...


Shhh Geo... Micro climates don't exist!


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

George, I'm happy with that as long as everyone stops trying to convince Strawhouse that it can't be done since that's exactly what some keep saying. I don't care that there is a tiny micro-climate in Indiana where it's folly to even attempt growing bell peppers when all around are successful. Micro-climates usually are either a bane or a benefit to all garden vegetables. There's been no documentation of such a one prohibiting the growth of one species while promoting growth of closely related species. 

Martin


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## Guest123 (Oct 10, 2006)

Paquebot, I just want to make sure I understand what you have written.
1.) You do believe and understand that there are micro-climates.
2.) Micro-climates should effect similar species equally.
3.) If other similar species are growing well, maybe there is another problem.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

treasureacres said:


> Paquebot, I just want to make sure I understand what you have written.
> 1.) You do believe and understand that there are micro-climates.
> 2.) Micro-climates should effect similar species equally.
> 3.) If other similar species are growing well, maybe there is another problem.


That's 100% correct and only took 3 short sentences to sum up what was established early on. Number 3 is especially important and is the rule for every garden. Straight away, the problem with Strawhouse's pepper plants wasn't a micro-climate problem but a soil nutrient problem. The same would apply if those plants were growing in Florida or Maine. There was an admission that high-nitrogen fertilizer was involved and the plants are growing exactly as they should under such conditions. If something else was wrong, there would only be anemic, stunted, or otherwise unhealthy plants. If the plants manage to use up most of the excess nitrogen, there is still time for them to produce fruit. The bulk of the bell peppers varieties are in the 65-75 day range so that is not factor. 

The gardener in the other alleged micro-climate involved here also has admitted to using an improper fertilizer regime which is not conducive to growing bell peppers. After 30 years of failure, simple common sense and frugality would dictate that she is not growing any this year to be able to compare notes. After all, nobody would be foolish enough to continue to throw time and money at seeds or plants which are guaranteed not to produce anything!

Tomatoes and peppers are the two most common vegetables which are affected by micro-climates. Many hundreds of tomato varieties have been developed specifically for a single USDA zone or even small areas within a zone. There are those just best for the Dakotas, Florida, Maine, Ontario, and all points in between. For example, the varieties which Strawhouse are growing all were developed for growing north of the 42nd or 43rd Parallel. 

Peppers are the least affected and the same variety will produce equally well in the Yucatan Peninsula or the Upper Peninsula. Same peppers may be grown commercially in California or Michigan. Only the planting time is different. The same heat which would adversely affect tomatoes would not affect peppers. Any climatic condition which would be an asset for tomatoes would be even more appreciated by peppers. 

Now learn something else interesting about sweet bell peppers. In January, you will not find a American or Canadian bell pepper and yet the supermarkets have them. They come from many hundreds of acres in southern Mexico and right beside the Pacific Ocean where there is almost a constant breeze from the sea. That also results in a lot of rain. Green bell peppers are up to 94% water so timely irrigation is also very important. 

Martin


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

you can check about soil sampling here
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/06-031.htm


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

Great links Geo and Ford, thanks! Funny, I never would have thought to check the Minsitry websites for information.. 

I am most definietly in the "E" zone geo. I would never plant anything here that's not frost resistant prior to the first weekend in June. I've made that mistake before. I may be a newbie, but I'm an expert compared to my friends. Quite a few of my friends are starting to get into veggie gardening, and when they ask me for advice, like when to plant seedlings, I tell them never before the first weekend in June. 
2 of my friends argued with me this year, saying the charts or a website said earlier, and they planted out. Guess what happened??? Frost! So we have a short season, that's for sure.

That being said, my neighbours up the road can grow bells. Many people I've talked to can grow bells. And I am indeed growing a short season variety. (can't off the top of my head remember what one though.....)

Muskoka is a biiiiig area, huge. I am atleast 35km away from any larger lake, Lake Muskoka, and probably about 125 to 150 kms away from Georgian Bay, one of the best areas in Ontario for wind generation.
I'm actually right in the middle of the forest, lot's of protection. So little wind that windmills don't turn enought to generater power.

I am very interested in rileyjo's overwintering. I read a few posts last winter where people were doing that.... I just may try. I have 25' of south facing windows, and 2' deep window sills (man straw houses are great!) so I've got the room to bring some in for sure and see how it goes. (just have to keep the kids away from them!)
But excatly how I do that? I have no idea. Maybe it's time for a new thread!


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

the over wintering works well!! am setting up some shelves for peppers this fall.


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## strawhouse (Aug 7, 2010)

can you explain how it works ford? (whenever I see your posts, I think Ford Prefect. Douglas Adams has invaded my mind.)


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

treasureacres does bring up the dilemma of the 800 lb gorrila in the room....which seems to get lost in the various opinions as the thread progresses. Capsicum annuans includes both kinds(if you will)--- of hot peppers and sweet,bell peppers. The OP states in the original question, that one kind (hot)flourishes, the other(sweet, bells) doesn't. So does another poster in Indiana, and if memory serves me, so do others.....

Whether you discuss heavy fertilizer(especially N)--or microclimate--if you take an absolute position on your answer, you lose, since one situation--or both of them together, SHOULD produce the same results. 

If it were that simple and absolute, then consider that the Kentucky Derby would no longer exist--same species(Thoroughbred horse), same track, same race........but one horse is fastest, eh? 

This is the stuff that Master's Degree theses are made of. The answer probably lies somewhere in between. But, since peppers can be produced in commodity volumes worldwide, usually in warmer places than mid-northern Ontario, and in greenhouses, too, I doubt we _home gardeners_ will find that just right absolute answer we all hope for. The clout of the home gardener is tiny compared to the commodity production side. And they are getting into genetic research and manipulation, rather than concerning themselves why one gardener in a possible fringe area is having such troubles. In other words, you're on your own, sorry to say. 

So, recognize that there just may BE some differences in varieties, some flukes in weather patterns, and adjust by observing and using some suggesed ways to ensure a harvest--for both hots and sweets......

This site consists of a Consensus paper on peppers held worldwide by various experts from all countries. I offer it for anyone who wishes to gain a more thorough working knowlege of growing peppers. Temperatures quoted are in Celcius......http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/37/21/46794879.pdf

Maybe it will help, maybe not.

geo


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

geo in mi said:


> So, recognize that there just may BE some differences in varieties, some flukes in weather patterns, and adjust by observing and using some suggesed ways to ensure a harvest--for both hots and sweets......
> 
> geo


Hot peppers are often shorter plants with short internode stems. They also usually produce a much higher percentage of foliage to fruit than sweet bell peppers. For example, my Super Chili are a mass of both leaves and fruit with the plants being barely 18" high. The small fruit are formed at the end of branches rather than off the main stem as would be the case of large bells. Excess nitrogen to that type would not be a major factor in fruit production. It would be a factor in something like Garden Salsa which is hot but produces the fruit off the main stems. Those plants continue growing upwards to produce longer stems which in turn will eventually produce more fruit.

Martin


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Paquebot said:


> Hot peppers are often shorter plants with short internode stems. They also usually produce a much higher percentage of foliage to fruit than sweet bell peppers. For example, my Super Chili are a mass of both leaves and fruit with the plants being barely 18" high. The small fruit are formed at the end of branches rather than off the main stem as would be the case of large bells. Excess nitrogen to that type would not be a major factor in fruit production. It would be a factor in something like Garden Salsa which is hot but produces the fruit off the main stems. Those plants continue growing upwards to produce longer stems which in turn will eventually produce more fruit.
> 
> Martin


Thanks, that's useful information and thanks for sharing. There seems to be huge variation in the pepper classification, and I think a gardener would have to slog through a lot of T & E without your detailed knowlege. 

geo


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Yes- this was very informative. I admit it wasn't until the last two posting between Paquebot and geo in mi that I got the point of the nitrogen issue. Thanks to both of you.


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## BlueOrchid (Aug 21, 2011)

I live in southwest Ohio and I have never had any difficulty with bell peppers. One of the few plants I can count on every year. I don't start them from seed though. I buy little plants at the farmer's market. As with eggplant, and brussel sprouts. Everything else I plant by seed. I have had a constant supply of bell peppers since the middle of July and that is from 2 plants. My soil is the worst, hard rocky clay, I use grass clippings, straw, epsom salt and any plant waste I have to improve the soil.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

Ford major and I have a large sunporch where we start seeds and house the peppers until it gets below freezing day and night. Then we haul them into the house and treat them as dormant houseplants. We only water enough to keep them barely alive until the days start lengthening again. They'd like to go outside but we hold them in until we are surely past last frost and the nights are warm. The smaller plants do best but we do bring in the big plants in 5 gallon buckets. They are no trouble but I do get anxious to turf them out sooner than I should.

The Muskoka region that borders the great inland seas is flat for about 150km until it rises sharply when it meets Algonquin Park. There is a lot of moisture that is dumped just offshore and where the rise begins. In winter, this moisture creates heavy snowfall. In summer, it cools quickly overnight and condenses. Night time temps can be very low altho the days get quite warm. I dont have anywhere near the same shift in temps here in the Ottawa Valley as I did in Muskoka. Muskoka has about 30% more cloud cover/ cloudy days than Ottawa. I had very poor soil in Muskoka ( which improved over the years as I worked at it) and lousy peppers. Rich loamy soil here and very nice quality altho not hugely abundent bell peppers. Irrigation of the plants in each location was about the same.

My best peppers have been King of the North ( a bell) and Black Hungarian . A hybrid bell named Gypsy has been very reliable for the Farmers Markets that I'm at this year. 

Btw, the HT settings rejected Fordson Major as a login name when Steve registered many years ago. The man loves his Fordson Major tractors. We've both read the books but prefer to talk about the tractors.


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