# A question on feeding raw..



## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I've been feeding my two GP's semi raw for the 17 months we've had them. By this I mean, a grain ,soy, gmo free kibble, and 1 pound of raw meat, per day. They are doing fine on this and I'll most likely continue with it.
I'm having a very hard time finding a source to get their meat, and bones though.
None of the processors up here will sell them to me, as in scraps, not prime cuts.
So I have resorted to going to Walmart early in the morning to get their markdowns, to try to keep it a bit more affordable. Even this ain't cheap, but cheaper than paying full price.
Dh and I have been talking about just raising rabbits and chickens for them to eat. Also we now have several steers that when they are butchered we will be able to get back the leftovers for the dogs.
My question is this: How many here raise their dogs food? If you do, do you simply butcher once a month? Two months? Whatever?
Also, do you feed say half a rabbit to each dog a night? Or a whole one?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

It's easier on your dog's system to feed either kibble or raw, not both. If you are having a tough time finding the raw meaty bones for your big dogs, I'd feed them a top quality kibble and give them a recreation bone once a week.

To go about it as you wrote, you'd have to be killing something everyday, or make a project of killing and freezing. We have butchered our own animals, but the dog(s) get bits and offal. I otherwise buy 10 pound bags of chicken leg quarters for most of the dog food. I cannot find raw meaty bones, only meatless bones priced like people food.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Maura, thanks. Yes, this has been our situation as well, not being able to find what I need.
I honestly have never given them the chicken leg quarters....might be a really good option, I have no idea why it never occurred to me.
I'm curious as to why giving them kibble, with raw is hard on them? I feed Diamond Lamb and Rice, with a pound of whatever beef (usually) I can get on sale. Once or twice a week they get raw liver with the kibble instead. 
My Murphy has a serious yeast issue, and this has done wonders for him. His sister is a gassy thing though...could that be from combining the kibble and raw?


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

from my own experience, feeding kibble and raw on same day, is hard on their digestive tract.....each food digests at a different speed.
I also cant find affordable raw.
I buy leg quarters, anywhere from .69 per lb to 89 a lb. One dog is allergic to chicken and I worry that if I feed it too much to the rest, some of them might also develop an allergy. (yes, it probably is an allergy to whatever the chickens were fed)
I have fed my dogs rabbits we raised and chickens too, and for me it is a pain in the butt. I loved that they had edible bone, and their teeth were really great shape.
The best I can do is a butcher that sells ground up stuff for dogs at .59 @ lb.... but there's no bones to chew. The bones I buy from them aren't really meaty, and beef bone scratches their tooth enamel (so I've read) Plus those doggone bones are over a buck a lb.....
That butcher is an hour and quarter away from me, so I buy whatever he has, as much as I know my freezers can hold; try for 3 to 500 lbs every few months (they eat around 160lbs during summer, and it goes up in winter) He doesn't always have it; depends on how many 'downer' calves from local farmers, or cows that died of old age, etc.
I've looked around to buy lamb or goats for slaughter, but it awfully pricey. I buy lamb once year for us, and sometimes the guy remembers to hold all the bone and bits for my dogs. Sometimes not. Lambs aren't very big, either.
When I run out of stuff, I usually feed high quality over priced kibble until I can find more raw.
I wish I could buy 1,000 lbs frozen, but dont have the freezer space.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

People always slam me for it, but my dogs get a fair bit of grains once they're not pups anymore. They live long, healthy lives on it. Some days they get oatmeal cooked in whey or split peas and rice well cooked. For meat, I use rabbits, whole and as is, chickens in the same manner. For a GP, I give one whole rabbit or chicken. Mine also get any chickens, turkeys or rabbits that die suddenly. They also get my excess goats that don't sell, which is most of them. They get all the offal and skin and bones when we butcher anything, including deer.

You could ask any hunters you know for the head, skins, leg bones, whatever they don't use. If it's legal in your state, you could also pick up fresh roadkill. If you know anybody around you who raises cattle, sheep, whatever, you could ask for their stillborns or older/down animals. I used to have a great source of down cows. We lived a couple hours away from the nearest auction yard and it wasn't worth it for them the take one or two cows in when they were getting old. So I got them and any downed animals. I just had to kill and butcher myself, but I could do that.

I have never had any problems with the dogs deciding that any of my animals are now food for the taking.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I agree with Maura and Sherry about mixing the raw with the dry food. (I've only done this with the juices that have cooked out of meats prepared for the family.) 

Finding good raw meat/bones for large dogs can be costly. I'm fortunate here in that every fall when deer season arrives, there are always whole deer (except for tinderloins) thrown out near the county dumpsters. Some people are just so wasteful; but I can make good use of what they've thrown away if I catch it fast enough. I also raise (and process) our own meats (goat and fowl) and, from the goats, I always save the internal organs, the hocks, ribs and all bones I've cut meat from. (This year I'm butchering 5 kids as soon as they weight over 80 lbs. This will give me at least 47 large meat/bone meals. Add the deer people throw away which is "all" given to the dogs, I wind up with a supply that will usually last a year.)

We also have a wild life butchering shop here and I'm going to call them this year to see what they do with the parts their patrons do not want.

I am, also, planning on a rabbit colony. A little situation that occured last week: Cujo brought up a baby bunny rabbit. It was still alive when he laid it down for Valentina. Valentina had no idea what to do with it; so she would pick it up, shake it a little and then toss it. Not once did she attempt to eat it. After watching this for awhile, Cujo went over, picked it up, chomped once and then swallowed it. I could swear the little thing was still alive when it went down his throat.


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## jesirose (Jun 20, 2013)

hercsmama said:


> I've been feeding my two GP's semi raw for the 17 months we've had them. By this I mean, a grain ,soy, gmo free kibble, and 1 pound of raw meat, per day. They are doing fine on this and I'll most likely continue with it.
> I'm having a very hard time finding a source to get their meat, and bones though.
> None of the processors up here will sell them to me, as in scraps, not prime cuts.
> So I have resorted to going to Walmart early in the morning to get their markdowns, to try to keep it a bit more affordable. Even this ain't cheap, but cheaper than paying full price.
> ...



Feeding our dogs raw is one of the reasons I expanded my farming. We are going to eventually start raising rabbits and cavies as well, because they're more efficient than chickens. As of right now we have only butchered one chicken for our dogs because we only have layers right now, once we get more funds we will expand into the meat animals. 

How much you feed depends a lot on the size of your dog. Given you have Pyrs you'll feed a lot more than I do since two of my three dogs are small. Once they're off the dry food and only on raw, you would feed 2% of their body weight each day. After a while you learn to eyeball it. What we tend to do is feed a convenient sized animal and then throw in 1-2 fasting days if needed. It's a lot easier and more natural, and we don't have to mess around with weighing, cutting up the animal, etc. Since I have one big dog and 2 littles, it's a balancing act. 

The great part is, it's a lot less work than butchering for humans to eat! AND I finally got my big dog to start eating his organs. He's always been really picky about organs, I tried all sorts and he did not like to eat them. When we processed our cockerel I pretty much just got most of the feathers, then took off the legs. Each little got a leg, (one of them got the head) and the big dog got the rest of the bird. I figured I'd let him pick at it then toss the guts he didn't want, but he ate EVERY thing. I was shocked. I think having it fresh made a big difference for him.

When I used to feed rabbits to my one smaller dog (when I just had the one) I got them processed and the skin removed, but they would have most of the organs still too (heart, lungs, liver, etc. They did remove the intestines and stuff). I know some people give the rabbit skin and fur, but I don't see any point in that. I think that it is important to process the animal at least a little so the dogs don't think any dead bird or rabbit is their meal. I want them to only eat what I put in their bowl, and by removing the feathers/skin/fur I am helping keep the distinction between food and random dead animals outside. 

When you get your steers butchered, be careful that you only give the dogs whole pieces or organs. Do not give them cut leg bones for example - any cut bone is dangerous, it now has a sharp artificial edge. The tongue is great, the heart is great.


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## Seeria (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm totally new to this so this might sound ignorant. 

Why not just let the dogs kill their own food? Live chickens or a rabbits in a feeding cage, let the dog at it.


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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

i was feeding just raw beef to my dogs for several months (mostly to find some freezer space for other things) and i found that when they started shedding out, their coats were looking quite icky. so ive put a cup (for each dog) back into their diets along with their raw beef. my Maremma gets 2# beef and a day, the Lab gets 1.3# and the BC gets 2/3#. they all get 2 cups kibble each day. I must say that by adding the kibble back in, their coats are looking much better. I still need to add a vit/min suppliment, but this has been a great change.
i pay about 30-35 cents per pound for my beef and its delivered to a friend's house with a bunch of others' orders. Most of the meat and bones and such that shows up on the truck is destined for sled dog kennels... where they all feed a kibble and raw diet. never heard of any of them complaining about digestive issues. 

as for letting the dogs kill their own? whats to prevent them from killing what they are supposed to be guarding?


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Lot's of great advice and ideas here. Thanks all so much.
I'll make some calls this week, as we are surrounded by cattle ranches, and honestly, once again, I never thought to ask about any downers they might want to get rid of.


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## jesirose (Jun 20, 2013)

Seeria said:


> I'm totally new to this so this might sound ignorant.
> 
> Why not just let the dogs kill their own food? Live chickens or a rabbits in a feeding cage, let the dog at it.


It does sound incredibly ignorant, in fact it sounds down right inflammatory.

You really don't see the difference between a person humanely processing livestock and a dog killing the livestock? I don't buy that you can't see the difference.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Besides, I don't think you want your LGD's killing the animals he's supposed to protect.

If you are feeding Diamond, your store probably has Taste of the Wild, which is made by Diamond. It is one of the best foods on the market. It is what I feed the dogs if I can't feed raw for some reason.

For anyone considering feeding raw, remember that you need to feed raw meaty bones (hence the chicken legs, chicken beef pork or lamb necks, tails) not boneless meat. Do your research.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Some good points are made here. I certainly second the one about not feeding bones that have been cut.

I do have a question about what you said Maura, i.e. "not boneless meat". I've not researched it...as yet  ... however, the internal organs are boneless; so I'm failing at this time to see the difference.


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## jesirose (Jun 20, 2013)

I think she meant not ONLY boneless meat - the bones are important to include. Organs are not really considered meat in raw feeding - you have a certain percentage bone, meat and organ.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Seeria said:


> I'm totally new to this so this might sound ignorant.
> 
> Why not just let the dogs kill their own food? Live chickens or a rabbits in a feeding cage, let the dog at it.


I'm going to assume this to be a purely innocent question and answer accordingly. 
As Jesirose stated, there is a HUGE difference between properly and respectfully killing and butchering an animal for food, and just downright cruelty.
Those of us who choose to feed a more natural and unprocessed diet to our dogs, do so because we feel it is the way they were meant to eat, not for some sort of deranged entertainment value for either ourselves or our dogs.
I choose to eat a natural diet myself, I do eat meat, that doesn't mean I go out and tear whatever animal it is apart and cause it to suffer. Likewise, I don't want them to suffer at the jaws of my dogs either.:cowboy:


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

Try getting in contact with the meat wholesale places that supply meat to the restaurants in your area. Some will sell to you by the case things like chicken necks and backs. If they won't, make friends with a local (non-chain) restaurant and see if they will let you order a case or two when they order.


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## Seeria (Jul 21, 2006)

hercsmama said:


> I'm going to assume this to be a purely innocent question and answer accordingly.
> As Jesirose stated, there is a HUGE difference between properly and respectfully killing and butchering an animal for food, and just downright cruelty.
> Those of us who choose to feed a more natural and unprocessed diet to our dogs, do so because we feel it is the way they were meant to eat, not for some sort of deranged entertainment value for either ourselves or our dogs.
> I choose to eat a natural diet myself, I do eat meat, that doesn't mean I go out and tear whatever animal it is apart and cause it to suffer. Likewise, I don't want them to suffer at the jaws of my dogs either.:cowboy:


Thank you, that clears it up.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Maybe I'm being foolish about this; however, I don't like the idea of feeding my dogs chicken pieces with those small bones. The only part of chicken my dogs are going to ever get are the legs and thighs.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

when i was caring for 9 Great Danes that where raw fed our saving grace was leg quarters, pork neck bones turkey necks (risky in certain dogs) the best prices on this stuff was walmart or not as nice grocery stores, even could find tripe and chicken legs at one. Ethnic markets are another good idea.
I also used for my organ meats which normally grossed me out Blue Ridge Beef they are ground all in this nice package and the smell is similar to a cow patty but its an outside food on the organ mix. I no longer feed raw but their packaged raw foods where reasonable priced, no junk just meat, skin and bone ground up to look like chuck, and they do also have RMBs. 
http://www.blueridgebeef.com/welcome.html


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## lordoftheweeds (Dec 27, 2012)

When you say the skin do you mean the fur ( rabbits)? Could I grind up the whole rabbit after I gutted it?


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I kill the rabbit and that is all. Dogs get the WHOLE thing, hair and all. I don't know how a grinder would deal with the hair, though.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

My akita has been eating kibble following a meal of raw for her entire life. It was the only way to get her to eat as a puppy. You have to prime her stomach and remind her she's hungry and then she eats everything in sight. Otherwise she'll go a week without eating.

We used to raise chickens and would butcher the roosters whenever they got old enough to be annoying and throw them in the freezer. Then feed a whole chicken twice a week plus beef bones my mom would get when she ordered a half a cow for her large freezer.

We now raise rabbits because we had to move out of the house I was renting and my mom hates chickens. We feed Fromm grain free kibble free choice. Get beef bones by the large bags from a guy who raises organic grassfed beef and give a bone a day. They also sometimes get things like beef tongue from my mom. Then feed a whole rabbit every other day. When I have a bigger rabbit I cut the legs off and feed the legs to my shiba and the body to my akita. Finally they get chicken thighs about twice a week. 1 for my 20lb shiba and 2 for my 80lb akita. We also get venison here and there from people some during hunting season and some later that's freezer burnt. In fact I was just going to thaw some freezer burnt venison brats for their raw meal tonight. You cannot feed more than about 60% rabbit in the diet or they start to have coat, skin, and ear issues from the low fat, high protein meat so we cannot feed them completely on what we raise.

In the future I'd like enough land to raise old english game bantams and nigerian dwarf goats. The roosters and bucklings of which would go for food animals. Then we could feed them 100% on what we raise.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Some people feed hamburger, but the dogs need bones. As jessirose wrote, organ meat is something else. If you are feeding a raw diet, this is the sort of thing you would find out while doing research. Meaty bones is the base diet. You also give them liver a couple of times a week, and another organ meat once a week, like brain, lung, kidney, tripe. And you feed everything raw, nothing cooked. And, you don't grind the bones, don't add carrots, and so on.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't raise my own (yet, first sheep are on pasture now, and are probably destined for the table, not the dog dish) but I did co-found our local raw food buying group. The other co-founder had a small premium kibble business, and handles all the logistics for a small cut of the transaction. Now most of her business is raw and she's opened up a store front funded by our club's transactions.

Call the local wholesale places and find out what the minimum order requirements are. Some will have lower requirements at the will call window than for delivery. The place we work with the most has a 250 lb order requirement for delivery, and you have to have a business tax id.

If you can't make the minimum order for wholesale, try local grocery stores and butchers, and ask about case prices and advance ordering. They may be willing to add on to their own order for a moderate markup.

Personally I've never seen an issue mixing raw and kibble unless the dog was unused to one or the other. For lunch I ate meat and a salad, and I'm not having any distress over it. (Granted, I'm not a dog, but meat solo would digest at a different rate than salad solo, and mixing them doesn't normally cause issues.) There's even meat in the kibble already, a bit more hydrated meat just changes the ratio? Dogs have been eating human leftovers for thousands of years, with a few exceptions (onions, raisins, etc...) they can get by on most anything a human can. I think raw is a good addition to kibble and better than straight kibble.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

We raise most of ours or hunt for it. We raise rabbits which are killed and skinned then fed whole. Extra roosters are killed and defeathered then fed whole. They get the leftovers from processing pigs and goats and then we always put a few deer in the freezer each season. We put in some chicken leg quarters from the store as well but not a whole lot. Ours also eat fish that we catch. We cut the fins off the fish and gut them and then the dogs get them. It took them some time to get used to eating fish like this and it still isn't their favorite but they eat it. The cats on the other hand mob you if they know you have fish for them.


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## jesirose (Jun 20, 2013)

dlskidmore said:


> Personally I've never seen an issue mixing raw and kibble unless the dog was unused to one or the other. For lunch I ate meat and a salad, and I'm not having any distress over it. (Granted, I'm not a dog, but meat solo would digest at a different rate than salad solo, and mixing them doesn't normally cause issues.) There's even meat in the kibble already, a bit more hydrated meat just changes the ratio? Dogs have been eating human leftovers for thousands of years, with a few exceptions (onions, raisins, etc...) they can get by on most anything a human can. I think raw is a good addition to kibble and better than straight kibble.


The meat in the kibble has been cooked, which is the big difference - not the amount of water in it. Their bodies (and ours as well) digest raw things differently from cooked things. When you cook something it fundamentally changes it's composition. 

Yes, most dogs can handle raw and kibble at the same time. It's healthier and easier on them to not mix them. When I was transitioning a pair of cats to raw I would mix raw and canned cat food for weeks. It may have even been months we spent transitioning them. It was better for them than no raw at all. However it's just easier on their bodies if you keep a fair amount of time in between the two meals. 

Humans are also very prone to dietary stress with changes. Some may be a lot less sensitive than others. But look at what happens to vegetarians and vegans - after a while, they can't eat meat if they want to because they get sick. Some people might never experience that. 

I totally agree that dogs can get by on about anything. I know of a woman who feeds her dog a 100% vegan diet (which I think is insane, and just teetering on the edge of cruel) but the dog is fine. Unlike cats, dogs can synthesize taurine and can live without raw meat. They did evolve to live off our leftovers and scraps. However the whole point of feeding raw is to give them the healthiest best diet we can - so if you're trying to do that it would make sense that you also take into account the way their bodies digest the food and space out raw from kibble. I would personally put a whole day in between, even doing fasting if possible. Dogs are meant to "gorge and fast", so they can handle big meals and then several days off. We just get emotional and think they're hungry and feel bad.


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

Seeria, I think most of us want a 'humane raw fed diet' not 'inhumane'....
I have encountered some people who think that because I raw feed, that I throw live animals into the pen with them. This is totally untrue.
That is cruelty to the max. Plus, I dont want the dogs thinking they can go choose whatever they want from my chickens, or rabs or whatever I'm raising.
If I could get over the killing part (done it in past for dogs and us) I'd raise rabs again and get even more chickens. I would have to re invest in cages for that, and I dont want that expense, plus just dont want to slaughter anymore. And, I dont have big enough buildings really to do as much as full time raw feeding.
I think quality kibble is ok, but had a dog die a few years ago from aflatoxin poisoning, and I will never let an animal go through that again.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

One solution I have seen that has been around for awhile (and that I do for my own dogs)-- is feed whatever raw you are going to (recreational meaty bones dont really "count" as there is not enough raw meat being consumed to interfere) in the AM, for breakfast (raw digests awhole lot faster then kibble) and then do your kibble in the evening....
Never had a problem with it...
Also be selective with your "grainfree" kibble that can mean alot of things, such as bulking up the protein content with peas and legumes instead of using easily digestible things like... rice and oatmeal (which in moderation, are not bad things IMHE)- what you want to see is a good single source meats and not just meat meals and a lot of filler like sweet potatoes, peas, tomato pomace etc.....


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