# advice on managing my own website



## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

I'll try to be brief about this. I have formed a nonprofit and after three tries -- all involving money -- found a graphic artist/web designer who has created a great-looking website. I provided text and photos but she did the layout and whatever else.

But: she is very expensive. She wanted to get involved and did that by cutting her rate 25%, for which I am grateful. Two weeks ago I paid her $350 as a first installment for service (out of my pocket), and told her that I would pay her again as soon as there was money generated by the nonprofit. We just started, literally, this month. But she is knocking on the door for the rest. It is keeping me up nights and the stress is getting to me. 

There will be other things that will need to be on the website as we go along although the creative aspect is pretty much done.

So, here's my question:
I'm wondering if it is worth my while to learn how to do it myself, and then use her as a consult? I certainly don't want to lose her, at least until I can figure out if I am able to "take over" the maintenance.

I'm clueless as far as knowing how long something takes to get posted on the site or even how to begin. Also, I don't know what I'm paying for. But the website will have to be updated and changed throughout, so someone has to do it.

I'd have to start from scratch (although after working with GoDaddy as our host/domain company, I'm learning some of the jargon). 

I'd like to hear comments, please.


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## happyhomestead (Jan 19, 2011)

Whats up Doc?
I am actually beginning to do website designs professionally, but I have been a hobbyist for a few years. 

A link to your website would be very helpful. 

I can make a few suggestions to make updating the site yourself much easier.
You can Add a blog to your website via a blogging community or wordpress. You can write a blog every day to keep your audience up to date with the website, and update it yourself from home.

You can use widgets/chatrooms/forums implemented in your site to directly interact with your audience.

I am just tossing some ideas your way but since I cannot see the site I do not know what kind of ideas to toss! 

The problem with website designers and I VOW never to do this to my clients is they nickle and dime you to death! Every update and hour of time costs $$. What you want to do is assess your site and see what updates need to be done, and really..how often? A website designer could suggest an update much more then necessary.


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## happyhomestead (Jan 19, 2011)

PS as for if it is worth your while: I will admit I have no formal education in website design, it was an intrest and hobby of mine, but it can be very frustrating and time consuming. As with any hobby/art you must have heart! If you don't have the passion for it it may not be worth your while, especially if it takes your focus away from the non profit!


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

Did I imply that I didn't have the heart for it? I want to learn! But, I'm wondering how much learnin' I'll need to do -- computer classes, learning from someone who knows already what to do?? Where to start? Mainly, what I want to be able to do is provide updates and changes on an as-needed basis. If there is something major, perhaps, then, I can afford the web designer. And frankly, right now, I think I have been "nickeled and dimed" because I don't know what costs what -- it's a blank screen.

You are exactly right -- what I want to be able to do is assess my site. Add a photo if I get something new. Add a news clip or profile someone. That sort of thing.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Learning to use a graphic html editor is a lot like getting used to a clumsy word processor. I say give it a try. There are free graphic html editors available, like this one.

http://kompozer.net/

It always helps to understand the code that the editor creates, just to keep yourself out of trouble. In a real pinch you can just exit without saving your work. If you get stuck you can always ask here.


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## happyhomestead (Jan 19, 2011)

I hope you found my answers helpful! I would maybe start right at your fingertips, the internet has alot of useful info, visit some website design forums and take classes. I also forgot to suggest, it may be a great idea to start your own facebook/twitter pages. Youtube, facebook, and social networks are a great place to spread the word about your non profit. You can have a photo album on facebook that is very user friendly, and you can link this to your website


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

A couple of friends encouraged me to go with Facebook, so I will wade into those waters. This is all new to me.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

net objects fusion is a good tool. They have a free version as well as a pay version.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Doc said:


> A couple of friends encouraged me to go with Facebook, so I will wade into those waters. This is all new to me.


Facebook is a good utility for social networking, but certainly not a substitute for an informative website. If Facebook meets your needs then I have no objection. I admit that I'm a little surprised about your suggestion of using Facebook instead of a website, but I don't fully understand your requirements.


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

I already have the website. The advice is to go beyond the website.

What is "net objects fusion"? Why do I need it? Sorry, but you're dealing with a novice.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Doc said:


> What is "net objects fusion"? Why do I need it? Sorry, but you're dealing with a novice.


It's another html editor, similar to the one I recommended.


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

Ok, so does it matter which one you use -- if the website is already established?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Doc said:


> Ok, so does it matter which one you use -- if the website is already established?


It doesn't matter for minor editing tasks. That's like asking if it makes a difference which word processor you use to write a letter with. The result is the same.


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Do we even know if this website is run with a Content Management System or not? Any chance you could post the URL or PM the URL to one of us so we can see what you're going to be dealing with? If your website is running on a CMS, an html editor isn't going to do you much good.


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "content management system" although I understand what the words mean -- as well as PM? 

I guess my question is that there doesn't seem to be any way for me to find out what was used for CMS?

I also have a question about cost. The charges for designing a website seem to be all over the board, without contract, and without much information on how many hours it takes to do the tasks necessary. Is there any way for me to determine an estimate on what's fair? I don't mind paying, but I don't want to overcharged and I have no idea.

For example, for a professional web designer, to set up a five page website -- using a contact form using Mail Chimp -- but NOT writing the text, how long would that take? 10 hours? 20 hours? How to assess?


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## fratermus (May 11, 2009)

Doc said:


> There will be other things that will need to be on the website as we go along although the creative aspect is pretty much done.
> 
> So, here's my question:
> I'm wondering if it is worth my while to learn how to do it myself, and then use her as a consult? I certainly don't want to lose her, at least until I can figure out if I am able to "take over" the maintenance.


I don't know if it helps at the moment, but one way to do this successfully is to include training, amenability to sitewide change and user maintenance at the beginning when one is spec'ing out the project. It takes a great deal more time ($$$) to add those features in after the project is 'done'.

I do think it is worthwhile for you to learn the mechanics of the website if:
1. you think you would enjoy it
2. you are comfortable with technology and good about making backups 
3. you have time to work on it. It will be a time sucking vortex in the beginning and maybe later on, too.

If it were me I'd make a local copy of the site and play with it; that way you can wreck things (we all do) and not disturb the live site. You may have to set up a dinky webserver and various extensions, depending on how your site is set up.

{edited to correct a typo}


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## fratermus (May 11, 2009)

Doc said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "content management system" although I understand what the words mean -- as well as PM?


Sometimes the designer just creates and uploads files. Sometimes the creation/revisions and access to the content are organized in a formal system with a CMS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_management_system
There are very real benefits (particularly for large sites with frequent revisions and many developers) at the cost of complexity and learning curve.

PM = private message on this site.

The godaddy backend is fairly braindead (ftp by default, have to jump through hoops to get SSH enabled to allow SCP sFTP, etc,) so I will assume the designer is just FTPing up files and not using CMS of any kind.




Doc said:


> I also have a question about cost. The charges for designing a website seem to be all over the board, without contract, and without much information on how many hours it takes to do the tasks necessary. Is there any way for me to determine an estimate on what's fair? I don't mind paying, but I don't want to overcharged and I have no idea.


It would be fair and prudent to ask for itemized invoices (.27 hrs for this item requested at this time and delivered at that time). You will quickly be able to see where the money is going, and what is good bang-for-buck for you. If you are uncomfortable with the request for itemization, couch it in terms of the needs of the organization: "The non-profit needs itemized invoices for our tax records, and to share with the rest of the board." Or whatever.



Doc said:


> For example, for a professional web designer, to set up a five page website -- using a contact form using Mail Chimp -- but NOT writing the text, how long would that take? 10 hours? 20 hours? How to assess?


The way to assess this is with a timer.  The above paragraph looks like a requirement to the client but not to the developer. Pretend the developer has NO IDEA what is in your head.  Be specific, use examples/benchmarks, bring up any deal-killers.

An experienced developer will be able to look at fleshed-out requirements and give you a reasonable estimate. What gets expensive is mid-stream (or post-stream!) changes, changes, changes.


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

fratermus: this is all very helpful. One thing we haven't done is changes, changes, changes. I add text and the designer puts it up there, but I was curious about the initial phase of design, but even that came from a template (I chose among five examples that she pulled off the web).

One Q: you say to make a copy and play with. Sounds like fun to me, but where to start? Are there websites that will show me how to do that?


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Doc said:


> fratermus: this is all very helpful. One thing we haven't done is changes, changes, changes. I add text and the designer puts it up there, but I was curious about the initial phase of design, but even that came from a template (I chose among five examples that she pulled off the web).
> 
> One Q: you say to make a copy and play with. Sounds like fun to me, but where to start? Are there websites that will show me how to do that?


_If_ it's a simple html website, you can play around and learn here - http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp. It certainly wouldn't hurt to learn basics of each language no matter what you're working with. Don't let it scare you away. It's like a big dog with a lot of bark and not much bite. As was mentioned, just back up your original pages when you're working on them.

_If_ she pulled a html template and made a few changes, it sounds like you may be getting taken for a ride. We can't possibly know that without one of us actually seeing the website itself. And we don't know the total cost for the design change to know if it was a fair price. Is she including the domain registration and hosting fees in this price?

If she made changes to a template for a CMS, then the price might be more in line with average. IDK. Like fratermus said, we're assuming a lot at this point.

If you need help in posting the URL here or PM'ing the URL (http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/), we can help with that. If you don't want to post the URL here in this thread, that's understandable. Are you promoting the website locally through offline avenues (business cards, other print advertising, etc.)?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Doc said:


> How Do I said:
> 
> 
> > _If_ she pulled a html template and made a few changes, it sounds like you may be getting taken for a ride.
> ...


It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she started with a template. But if her time was being billed honestly it would still be fair. Depending on what you do with a template, it can require a lot of input and customization.

For your question about where to start, I always suggest that people start with a template. A template is a pre-made website that was created with easy customization in mind. You can find templates for most any theme. I've been doing this for about 15 years and I still nearly always start by looking for a template. Many templates are free, and the ones that do charge are generally well worth the nominal fee, in my opinion of course.

When you use a template most of the artwork & programming is already done for you. You can find tons of free templates by googling.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=free+templates[/ame]

For example, I did a website for a western folk music artist. I found this template (wasn't free, but was only $2.95), which seemed to match his desired theme.

http://www.countrymanordesigns.com/lonesomecowboy.htm

Then I customized the template to his specific needs using a graphic html editor and an image editor. Here is the finished product (whatever that means).

http://desertbreezenv.com/

Starting with a template will save a mountain of work, and provides a leg-up to someone just starting out.


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Nevada said:


> For example, I did a website for a western folk music artist. I found this template (wasn't free, but was only $2.95), which seemed to match his desired theme.
> 
> http://www.countrymanordesigns.com/lonesomecowboy.htm
> 
> ...


Nevada, can you give a guesstimate of your time spent on that site so the OP can get a general idea of time involved for that particular site?


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to start over. I just want learn how to go from here. I love the site as it stands now, but would prefer to save some money and learn to have a little bit of control over my own site.


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Nevada said:


> But if her time was being billed honestly it would still be fair..


If the price was agreed to, that's true. Not much anyone would be able to do about it now. $350 _as a first installment_ just seemed a little steep, _depending_ on what all was involved and the total price. I just hate to see someone getting taken just because they don't know about a particular subject. Slapping a different header on a free template, charging $750 and calling that design service is dishonest and unethical IMHO. That's a situation I've recently seen locally. But if someone agrees to that without checking around first, what can you do? :shrug:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

How Do I said:


> Nevada, can you give a guesstimate of your time spent on that site so the OP can get a general idea of time involved for that particular site?


I do that site gratis, since I've know him for years, so I don't have a precise accounting. I even host for gratis. He does things for me in return. The only thing he really pays for is domain registration.

Anyway, I suppose I first threw it together and got the basic site up & running in an afternoon, but that was about 4 years ago. Later I put in a few hours installing the guestbook script, installing the streaming music application, and converting & uploading MP3s. Then there are little changes along the way, like updating new promotional photos. The site may not look it, but I've probably got 15 or 20 hours in it over the past 4 years.

What I've learned is that follow-up support is where I lose my shirt on web development. I used to get calls to update something simple, like contact info. I would agree to do it for free, then he might ask to have the background color changed too, then an image changed, then add another page. Before you know it I've lost an afternoon I can't bill for. I can make a lot more doing other things.


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

This designer took over from another who was not doing a very good job (she really didn't know what she was doing -- and was charging me for her training time!). But, we never agreed on a price, and there isn't a contract. After a week or so, the current WD told me she was charging $45/hr instead of her usual $65/hr since we are a nonprofit, but the hours seemed to mount even though she really did know what to do immediately. I paid her $350 out of pocket and told her on three separate occasions that I would pay all along, but in no way could I pay one lump sum (we're a very new nonprofit with no money in the bank account). She never said NO to that verbal agreement. She never said, "No, I need my money now." Or "I've put in x amount of hours and need to get paid." Nothing like that.

Then last week she wrote a very nasty, vitriolic (intimidating?) letter telling me to pay up now, and if I had to go borrow the money, then do it (her words, not mine). She attached her bill which was for a $1000 -- but no details about it. I was floored, not only at her unprofessional lashing out but also the bill. That amounts to approximately 22 hours of work.

When I tried to reassure her that she would get her money, but again, there was no way I could pay it all at once (I just sent her $350 three weeks ago), she got VERY upset and told her I needed to pay her by next week. As soon as I wrote her back to tell her I'd do what I could do, she became extremely nice again. Kind of weird.

BTW: I haven't sent her changes over and over. I pretty much let her design it since that was her job. And again, I'm very pleased with it.

So, I want to be out from under her. I want to learn some things myself. I do plan to ask her for an itemized list of her tasks/time, but I'm not sure that's the way to ask it? I do think it is a good idea to mention that we are a nonprofit and my accountant will want to know details, but I dread sending her the message. 

A friend of a friend suggested that I don't send anymore money until I receive an itemized bill and also the program she used along with IP addresses (?). 

And again, I am willing to pay what's fair, but I don't know what that is. I do know that I chose the design from five different sites that she had pulled from the internet. If that's template, I don't know, but what else could it be?

Sorry this is so complicated but now you have the sordid details. This is keeping me up nights and making me very tense. Her scathing email was over the top (esp. for a professional) but I don't want to get into that. I want to keep it straight business.

You all are welcome to visit the site: www.ncwolan.org. 


There hasn't been


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

That's a nice, clean website, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary. The most complicated thing I see is the mail form application on the Contact page, but that's a php script that's pretty simple to install (compared to cgi scripts). But that's already done anyway.

I don't see any reason why you can't maintain the site yourself. In fact I say the sooner the better with the webmaster you've got now. Here is how you should proceed.



The first thing you need to do is to ask her for your FTP login information. That will give you the information you need to login to your web space at your hosting account to make changes. If you can't get it from her (she'll know she's being fired when you ask) then ask your web hosting company for the info. If you have to ask your web host for the info I would suggest that you also have them change the FTP password so your previous web developer can't get access.
When you know your FTP access information, download and install an FTP application that you can use to transfer your files with. Something simple and free will do. Try the free version of FTP Commander. http://www.tucows.com/preview/195124
After you install FTP Commander, enter your FTP login info into it and login to your website. It will look kind of like Windows Explorer, the Windows application you use to access and manage your hard drive. Your computer's drives are on the left side, and your web space is on the right side. You should copy your entire web site to your computer (don't forget where you put it). Post back if you need help with that.
To edit your website, you will open one of the .html files with your graphic web editor (like the Kompozer application I suggested). For example, if you want to edit your "About" page, you would open the about.html file with Kompozer. Editing your site will be very easy since it's a simple layout. It is very much like using a modern word processor.
When a page has been edited to your satisfaction, save the file. You may wish to open the newly edited file with your web browser to verify its appearance.
Finally, login with your FTP application again and upload the edited file. Once the edited page is uploaded the rest of the world can see it.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Asking someone how much does it cost to design a web site is like asking someone how much does a car cost. The answer is always going to be it depends!!!! 

What do you need out of your web site, How many people with be accessing your site, what features do you need, what graphics work do you need. If your looking for a pretty flat web site with a few tabs and data that is pretty static, then creating and managing it yourself may be easy with minimal web design experience. When you start to bring in inventory database, online sales, forums then it becomes more difficult to mange. 

Here is a website http://morrowcountyares.org I built using Netobjects Fusion. It uses one of netobjects included stock templates. Simple left bar menu system. It incorporates a Google calendar, links to other data, local file download as well a javascript daily rotating message.


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## Doc (Jun 5, 2003)

I checked on the web editors that work with the Macbook. Kompozer and Homesite don't appear to be compatible. Wikipedia lists quite a few. 

thought I would ask if anyone here is a Mac user and what web editor program they use or recommend (preferably not an Apple product, too $$).


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

I guess people don't hand code any more? 

Mon


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

frogmammy said:


> I guess people don't hand code any more?
> 
> Mon


Hand coding is an inefficient way to develop a web page compared to using a graphic HTML editor. HTML layout is most easily controlled through tables, which is difficult to visualize the results of when hand coding. Designing a layout with a graphic HTML editor is much more efficient. Of course there's nothing wrong with reviewing the code the graphic editor generated.

It's not a question of right or wrong, it's just a matter of saving time. Since most web developers charge by the amount of time consumed, it's only fair to clients to use a graphic HTML editor for the bulk of the development work.

The topic of this thread involves someone who is new to HTML editing. He'll become functional much more quickly with a graphic editor.


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## fratermus (May 11, 2009)

{nevermind}


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