# I need some help.



## Mish

While this request for help isn't strictly weight related (although it is), I think that you all probably have a lot more dietary experience than I do and that hopefully you can save me from a nervous breakdown.

A little background because this seems so complicated to me that it might help tailor any responses. I am the person responsible for cooking for four adults. The other three aren't lazy - one works full time shift work, the other two are disabled enough that cooking more than a microwave dinner is a physical hardship for them and dangerous in not catching my kitchen on fire. I am starting to lose my mind trying to figure out meals that everyone can or will eat that won't cause issues for one or more of the other people also eating those meals. And I _really_ do not want to get into having to make separate meals for everyone.

I'm going to consider myself adult #1 - no dietary restrictions or weight loss goals (although that can never hurt, can it?).

Adult #2 - Self-imposed dietary restrictions for weight loss/maintenance, and for chronic GIRD. Tries to stick to no/low carbs, lots of fruits and veg, meat one meal a day, and low acid foods (which means no tomato sauce or salsa for him personally). Absolutely the most stick-to-it-no-matter what person out of the four of us. Meals must be something that can be reheated for later use due to shift work (takes dinner to work and nukes it unless it's salad).

Adult #3 - Dietary restrictions due to chronic medical condition which can cause severe digestive problems with certain foods, no need for weight loss (gain would be great): no pasta (bread and rice seem to be fine), no milk (cheese is fine, yogurt is fine digestively but is "gross"), dry beans and onions also tend to be a problem. Raw greens like lettuce, chard and kale can be problematic. Some herbs like rosemary and sage are bad. No citrus. Isn't a big meat eater, although more because of preference than any digestive problems. Would live on home made bread if humanly possible.

Adult #4 - Diabetic for a couple of decades, neuropathy in feet, eyesight going, kidney function is not good, etc. Normal diabetic food restrictions, as well as GIRD restrictions. Weight loss through diet would be great, since exercise is extremely limited and said adult is probably considered obese. Said adult will eat whatever is put in front of her, so I would love to put something in front of her that isn't adding to the problem. Wants to eat meat and bread (which we argue over) at every meal except breakfast. I can't stop her from snacking on things she shouldn't or not eating parts of meals she shouldn't if I make them for one of the other two, so I'm trying to make at least meals as healthy as possible for her while considering everyone else's restrictions/dislikes/wants as well. *edited to add absolutely no garlic at all, allergic*

Sorry if this is too long. I have been throwing things together for about a year now (since adult #4 moved in) but I'm realizing what I'm doing is always short changing somebody and that I need to get serious about finding at least some recipes or diet principles that could be good for everyone.

WFPB is probably something that's not going to fly with at least one of them, Keto/Whole 30 won't fly with two, etc. I'm trying to figure out something that maybe I could switch recipes back and forth between the diets so at least it's moderately better for everyone than my normal hillbilly food which I'm sure is tasty but good for no one?

Anybody feel like you have a suggestion or twelve? I'm all ears since I've pulled out all of the hair covering them... Please. Help. Hopeful thanks in advance.


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## Alice In TX/MO

I totally understand. I cook on a semi-regular basis for two grumpy men who have bachelor tastes. One has throat cancer and swallowing issues and acid reflux. The other is a Type Two diabetic who is resistant to eating well AFTER I cook good meals. Half a box of Oreos after supper happens if he does the shopping. 

I am going to suggest WFPB with a small serving of meat for the carnivore. 

Cabin Fever and Wind In Her Hair are my mentors on this way of eating. 

Grains, beans, salads, oatmeal, etc. Make flavorful sauces, and they won’t miss anything. 

It is easier than I expected. 

Don’t bring home sweets except on very special occasions.


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## Mish

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I totally understand. I cook on a semi-regular basis for two grumpy men who have bachelor tastes. One has throat cancer and swallowing issues and acid reflux. The other is a Type Two diabetic who is resistant to eating well AFTER I cook good meals. Half a box of Oreos after supper happens if he does the shopping.
> 
> I am going to suggest WFPB with a small serving of meat for the carnivore.
> 
> Cabin Fever and Wind In Her Hair are my mentors on this way of eating.
> 
> Grains, beans, salads, oatmeal, etc. Make flavorful sauces, and they won’t miss anything.
> 
> It is easier than I expected.
> 
> Don’t bring home sweets except on very special occasions.


Thank you, it's good to not feel like the only one in this situation. Your diabetic sounds like mine - healthy dinner and then she goes straight for the Sandies cookies or ice cream instead of the fruit I cut up. Unfortunately I don't have sole control over the grocery shopping, she moved in with us due to the disability and we're trying not to treat her like a child, which means she goes shopping with me or the husband and buys her own special things with her own money. I don't want to push it so far she has a complete meltdown, the moving in was hard enough giving up her independence. It's frustrating, but I get it.

Do you have a good source of recipes/meal ideas for WFPB? Or a decent book? I am not a creative cook, and have problems figuring it out if there aren't potatoes and gravy somewhere in there (by flavorful sauces I'm assuming you don't mean gravy? lol)  I have tried looking but it's really a bit overwhelming.

Thank you so much, feeling my stress level going down a little already.


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## Alice In TX/MO

It IS overwhelming at first. Let’s look at one meal at a time.

Breakfast isn’t hard for me. Oatmeal with fruit is good.

Sometimes a couple of pieces of toast with (no sugar added) peanut butter.

Burrito - flour tortilla with beans and browned potato chunks and salsa

Granola (again low sugar) with a banana chopped up on top.

Brown rice pudding.
https://www.forksoverknives.com/rec...m_term=Brown-Rice-Breakfast-Pudding#gs.14ukpr


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## Alice In TX/MO

I am fond of Forks Over Knives. Their website has the Subscription Option like they all do, but they also have some recipes and menu options to get you started.

https://www.forksoverknives.com/recipes/?type=grid&recipe_type=menus-and-collections#gs.14xj85

More tomorrow!!


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## Mish

Thank you!!


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## Alice In TX/MO

Another breakfast recipe:

Cube up a cooked sweet potato. 

Chop one bunch of green onions. 

Chop a good handful of fresh spinach. 

Saute sweet potato in skillet till you have some brown places on them. (Use Pam instead of oil) 

Add the green onions. Saute for a few minutes. 

Add the spinach. Turn off range. Put a lid on the skillet for a couple of minutes. 

Stir it around a bit. Serve. 

If you add some nice beans and/or brown rice, this turns into supper.


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## HermitJohn

Starchy grain and low fiber sugary fruit is NOT good for a diabetic. USE the dang blood glucose meter that every diabetic is prescribed or that you can get without a prescription at Walmart or Amazon, to test how various foods boost blood sugar. Believe your eyes, not what somebody tells you. Oatmeal and brown rice and irish potatoes ZOOM my blood sugar to the moon. Telling a diabetic to eat those "healthy" super high carb things is not great advice. So do beans and other starchy/sugary foods boost my blood sugar though I can tolerate some lentils and mung beans and chick peas. USE THE GLUCOSE METER, not what somebody online tells you. Its not only high carb foods, but total carbs consumed per day. Goal should be 100 grams of carbohydrate per day or less. Half that if you are freshly diagnosed diabetic.

There are many gurus out there, read the Dr. Mark Hyman books, he has a PBS fund raising show that probably has most of info, you dont need to buy his stuff or donate, just watch the show when your station broadcasts it and you will get the gist. No doubt his stuff is online somewhere too. IMHO his PEGAN diet probably about as close as it gets to healthy. You want whole lot non-starchy produce, nuts, avocados, a little healthily raised meat, and no grain or sugar and little to no dairy. ALL processed foods are laced with grain derived product to lower production cost and increase profit. Sweet fat (fat mixed with sugar) is worst of the worst. Its not easy giving up grain and grain derived foods, it really isnt, but until you do, you wont control blood sugar without drugs. I substitute flax seed meal and sunflower seed meal, they are oily seeds not starchy ones and satisfy desire for grains. If you are not diabetic yet, then suggest buckwheat and millet as maybe best of starchy grains.


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## Mish

Alice, thank you so much for the ideas. I'm reading through this thinking it's not that different from cooking regular burritos or greens (although much less greasy) and it makes it much less daunting.

I'll have to translate some of these into dinner recipes. I can't get #3 to eat breakfast and # 1 and 4 will only eat a bowl of cold Cheerios because someone somewhere told them it was good for them (sigh). 

Your ideas are making this much less daunting, thank you so much.


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## Mish

HermitJohn said:


> Starchy grain and low fiber sugary fruit is NOT good for a diabetic. USE the dang blood glucose meter that every diabetic is prescribed or that you can get without a prescription at Walmart or Amazon, to test how various foods boost blood sugar. Believe your eyes, not what somebody tells you. Oatmeal and brown rice and irish potatoes ZOOM my blood sugar to the moon. Telling a diabetic to eat those "healthy" super high carb things is not great advice. So do beans and other starchy/sugary foods boost my blood sugar though I can tolerate some lentils and mung beans and chick peas. USE THE GLUCOSE METER, not what somebody online tells you. Its not only high carb foods, but total carbs consumed per day. Goal should be 100 grams of carbohydrate per day or less. Half that if you are freshly diagnosed diabetic.


My problem with her is that she doesn't own a meter and won't use one (we've tried). She's one of those that thinks she's always doing pretty well even when it's obvious to everyone she isn't. Won't use the compression socks we got her for Christmas even though her ankles are swollen and purple all the time, and she has had no feeling in her feet for probably around 8 years. Had a gangrene scare on a toe a couple of months ago, and because it ended up not being, she thinks it's fine. Just found out she's in stage 3 kidney failure but she isn't concerned because it's not stage 4. 

I wish she would use a meter. I think I may have talked her into getting a referral for a private dietician session, but we'll see. So at this point I'm guessing and using Dr. Google, trying to get at least some decent food into her that isn't Cheerios and milk for breakfast, chopped ham sandwiches with 2 pieces of white bread (fried) for lunch, and then all sorts of cookies, crackers, full sugar peanut butter, ice cream, etc for snacks in between.

Just to clarify, she's in her 80's and was diagnosed with diabetes over 20 years ago. So I don't know if she's going off old dietary information or just said lump it. 

Thank you for the numbers, I'll have to start researching and see what I can do to at least make dinner as decent as possible.



HermitJohn said:


> There are many gurus out there, read the Dr. Mark Hyman books, he has a PBS fund raising show that probably has most of info, you dont need to buy his stuff or donate, just watch the show when your station broadcasts it and you will get the gist. No doubt his stuff is online somewhere too. IMHO his PEGAN diet probably about as close as it gets to healthy. You want whole lot non-starchy produce, nuts, avocados, a little healthily raised meat, and no grain or sugar and little to no dairy. ALL processed foods are laced with grain derived product to lower production cost and increase profit. Sweet fat (fat mixed with sugar) is worst of the worst. Its not easy giving up grain and grain derived foods, it really isnt, but until you do, you wont control blood sugar without drugs. I substitute flax seed meal and sunflower seed meal, they are oily seeds not starchy ones and satisfy desire for grains. If you are not diabetic yet, then suggest buckwheat and millet as maybe best of starchy grains.


Thank you, thank you, thank you, I'm going to look Dr. Hyman up right now. Unfortunately we don't have cable so I'll try and see if I can scare something up on Youtube or somewhere else.

Thank you so much!


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## HermitJohn

Mish said:


> My problem with her is that she doesn't own a meter and won't use one (we've tried). She's one of those that thinks she's always doing pretty well even when it's obvious to everyone she isn't. Won't use the compression socks we got her for Christmas even though her ankles are swollen and purple all the time, and she has had no feeling in her feet for probably around 8 years. Had a gangrene scare on a toe a couple of months ago, and because it ended up not being, she thinks it's fine. Just found out she's in stage 3 kidney failure but she isn't concerned because it's not stage 4.
> 
> I wish she would use a meter. I think I may have talked her into getting a referral for a private dietician session, but we'll see. So at this point I'm guessing and using Dr. Google, trying to get at least some decent food into her that isn't Cheerios and milk for breakfast, chopped ham sandwiches with 2 pieces of white bread (fried) for lunch, and then all sorts of cookies, crackers, full sugar peanut butter, ice cream, etc for snacks in between.
> 
> Just to clarify, she's in her 80's and was diagnosed with diabetes over 20 years ago. So I don't know if she's going off old dietary information or just said lump it.
> 
> Thank you for the numbers, I'll have to start researching and see what I can do to at least make dinner as decent as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, thank you, thank you, I'm going to look Dr. Hyman up right now. Unfortunately we don't have cable so I'll try and see if I can scare something up on Youtube or somewhere else.
> 
> Thank you so much!


PBS has broadcast station most areas, dont need cable. But sure there is bunch stuff online. 

And I am sorry if a diabetic relative sticks their head in sand and wont face reality, but such is life. You can lead a horse to water..... Its also a real shame with all the conflicting diabetic information out there. Thats why you need to test anything you read with your own glucose meter. Yes it sucks to have to poke yourself in finger every day. Or more often if you are testing how a particular food affects you. Its actually more painful to prick your finger than to inject yourself with insulin. The insulin needles anymore are super tiny and when I was on insulin it was pretty painless. Not painless in the wallet however. For a medicine that has been around a century, stuff is super expensive.


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## Terri

I think that since everybody can eat the low fat meats and cooked vegetables, that I would base the meals around that and serve the other foods as side dishes. And I would not expect somebody to eat the side dishes if it does not agree with their bodies.

So, that might mean chicken or lean pork or the less-fatty beef seasoned with either taco seasoning, soy sauce, shake n bake, McCormick seasoning, or whatever.

Cooked vegetables can be green beans or carrots or whatever.

Then for side dishes that some of you can eat would be salads or whatever.

.........................................................................................................

About the diabetic that wants to eat bread and meat at every meal excepting breakfast. Well I am a diabetic and I CAN eat bread and meat at every meal: the key is portion size. It isn't how often you eat the carbs like bread, it is how MUCH or it you eat at one sitting. So, for me my lunch is either leftovers or a sandwich.

Sandwich fillings might be egg salad, or chicken, or beef, or lean ham. The thing is, while I can make the sandwich a thick and meaty one I only eat the 2 slices of bread. If I eat more than 2 slices of bread my blood sugar will go up. Portion control is the key. With my sandwich I can have a salad or green beans or whatever, but only 2 slices of bread.

And, potatos and fruit are high in carbohydrates and so I eat limited amounts of that as well


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## HermitJohn

I have posted this before. Here is link to an old diebetic recipe book before there was insulin. This is how they controlled type2 in old days. Though sure they had problems getting people to strictly follow it. It also seems bit meat heavy and they like artificial sweetners which I would avoid. Still well worth reading.

https://ia601409.us.archive.org/0/items/diabeticcookeryr00oppeiala/diabeticcookeryr00oppeiala.pdf

Oh and if this link doesnt work well for you there are several others, just google "diabetic cookery" and look for copy of this 1917 book.


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## Mish

Terri said:


> I think that since everybody can eat the low fat meats and cooked vegetables, that I would base the meals around that and serve the other foods as side dishes. And I would not expect somebody to eat the side dishes if it does not agree with their bodies.
> 
> So, that might mean chicken or lean pork or the less-fatty beef seasoned with either taco seasoning, soy sauce, shake n bake, McCormick seasoning, or whatever.
> 
> Cooked vegetables can be green beans or carrots or whatever.
> 
> Then for side dishes that some of you can eat would be salads or whatever.
> 
> .........................................................................................................


Excellent way to just simplify that down into nuts and bolts. Smacking myself in the forehead for not looking at it that way to begin with. 

I guess where I run into problems is that I get stuck on the old standbys I've always cooked with (green beans/carrots, potatoes - which one at least probably shouldn't eat -, greens - another can't eat raw, cooked only -) and then run out of ways not to make it boring because I never learned how to cook anything other than your typical meat/potatoes dinners. Well, that and TexMex/CaliMex but we've had to stop eating a lot of that due to all of the GIRD issues going on up in here. Did I mention I'm not a creative cook? heh. 



Terri said:


> About the diabetic that wants to eat bread and meat at every meal. Well I am a diabetic and I CAN eat bread and meat at every meal: the key is portion size. It isn't how often you eat the carbs like bread, it is how MUCH or it you eat at one sitting. So, for me my lunch is either leftovers or a sandwich.
> 
> Sandwich fillings might be egg salad, or chicken, or beef, or lean ham. The thing is, while I can make the sandwich a thick and meaty one I only eat the 2 slices of bread. If I eat more than 2 slices of bread my blood sugar will go up. Portion control is the key. With my sandwich I can have a salad or green beans or whatever, but only 2 slices of bread.
> 
> And, potatos and fruit are high in carbohydrates and so I eat limited amounts of that as well


You absolutely could be right in that she would be able to eat bread/potatoes the way you do, but we don't know because she doesn't monitor her blood sugar, ever. Well, at doctor's visits. I guess I give her the stink eye about it because, not only is she eating at least 2 pieces of bread at lunch and dinner, she's also eating cereal, cookies, crackers, ice cream, etc (not just crackers or cookies, but both at different times) for snacks every day. I would say bread/crackers/cereal/cookies make up a good 60 percent or more of her food intake daily. And her health is seeming to be on a diabetes-related decline rather than age-related, so I'm just assuming any of that I can get her to cut out for at least one meal a day would be progress of some sort. Maybe not, though, maybe I'm just being judgemental and controlling. I just seriously don't want her to lose her feet or go on dialysis if it can be at all avoided.

Thank you so much. I'm learning a lot about how different everyone is in what they can handle, having my eyes opened.


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## Terri

Mish said:


> So at this point I'm guessing and using Dr. Google, trying to get at least some decent food into her that isn't Cheerios and milk for breakfast, chopped ham sandwiches with 2 pieces of white bread (fried) for lunch, and then all sorts of cookies, crackers, full sugar peanut butter, ice cream, etc for snacks in between.


I think she feels famished all of the time. With that diet I know that I would: when your blood sugar quickly goes up and down then your body objects by sending hunger pains, even if your blood sugar is very high already! When I was on cheerios and milk for breakfast I got so hungry between meals that I would shake.

My doctors are now very happy with my blood work. For breakfast I either eat eggs and a piece of toast or just a piece of toast. JUST one piece of toast, though

If I get hungry mid-morning I eat a couple of saltine crackers.

Lunch is a sandwich: a ham sandwich is fine though I do not fry mine!

I always snack in the afternoon, usually something light light like either a few crackers OR a piece of fruit OR a handful of chips, and no I do not go back for seconds.

Dinner for me is based around lean mean and non-starchy vegetables.

When I was diagnosed 20 years ago I was 43, and I decided that I wanted to live, and to live with all of my toes intact. This is something that every diabetic must decide. Every person must decide that, I am afraid. Since she is 80 she might decide that she will not live long anyways so she might as well enjoy what time she has left. If I were in my 80s nstead of in my 60s I might be tempted to do the same. As it is I intend to be in good health for the next couple of decades! And, I am rarely hungry now unless it is meal time. Having a stable blood sugar has reduced my appetite considerably.

And, WELL DONE getting her to consider seeing a dietician! And, yes as the main cook you need to go in with her!


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## Mish

HermitJohn said:


> I have posted this before. Here is link to an old diebetic recipe book before there was insulin. This is how they controlled type2 in old days. Though sure they had problems getting people to strictly follow it. It also seems bit meat heavy and they like artificial sweetners which I would avoid. Still well worth reading.
> 
> https://ia601409.us.archive.org/0/items/diabeticcookeryr00oppeiala/diabeticcookeryr00oppeiala.pdf
> 
> Oh and if this link doesnt work well for you there are several others, just google "diabetic cookery" and look for copy of this 1917 book.


Thank you! Downloading right now


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## HermitJohn

Terri said:


> Portion control is the key.


 If you are eating right kind of foods, calorie counting and portion control arent necessary, your body will just send signal to your brain "hey stupid, your are full, stop eating". It should be like breathing, you shouldnt have to consciously think about it.


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## Mish

Terri said:


> I think she feels famished all of the time. With that diet I know that I would: when your blood sugar quickly goes up and down then your body objects by sending hunger pains, even if your blood sugar is very high already! When I was on cheerios and milk for breakfast I got so hungry between meals that I would shake.
> 
> My doctors are now very happy with my blood work. For breakfast I either eat eggs and a piece of toast or just a piece of toast. JUST one piece of toast, though
> 
> If I get hungry mid-morning I eat a couple of saltine crackers.
> 
> Lunch is a sandwich: a ham sandwich is fine though I do not fry mine!
> 
> I always snack in the afternoon, usually something light light like either a few crackers OR a piece of fruit OR a handful of chips, and no I do not go back for seconds.
> 
> Dinner for me is based around lean mean and non-starchy vegetables.


It's funny, you are describing what she had going on until about a month/six weeks ago. She used to get really shaky and be super hungry all the time, until her new doc put her on a brand new diabetes medicine (pharmacy had to order it because it's that new I guess?). She says since then she isn't as hungry and doesn't get shaky/weak like she used to in between meals. So that's good, what's bad is that she still goes for the junk when she is hungry. I know she's an adult and can make her own choices, I just get frustrated.

I'm a big egg eater for breakfast (well, for any time if I'm honest) and I always offer to make her some when I'm getting mine. She's still stuck on the "eggs are bad for cholesterol" thing, so I haven't had much luck. Although, we did just get our first chickens and she keeps being excited about when they're going to lay, so maybe that'll tip breakfast out of Cheerios and into eggs. Cross our fingers.



Terri said:


> When I was diagnosed 20 years ago I was 43, and I decided that I wanted to live, and to live with all of my toes intact. This is something that every diabetic must decide. Every person must decide that, I am afraid. Since she is 80 she might decide that she will not live long anyways so she might as well enjoy what time she has left. If I were in my 80s nstead of in my 60s I might be tempted to do the same. As it is I intend to be in good health for the next couple of decades!
> 
> And, WELL DONE getting her to consider seeing a dietician! And, yes as the main cook you need to go in with her!


I know. I keep repeating to myself (and my husband - it's his mom), she's a grown-bleep woman with all of her mental facilities intact. It's totally her decision whether it's worth it to lose the feet or kidney function over eating X. I just can't understand it, personally, because other than the diabetes-related stuff she's healthy as a horse. And she doesn't seem like she's given up in any other area of her life, so it's confusing.

Thanks! Hopefully she'll ask for the referral to the dietician and I will totally go with her. If she lets me


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## Terri

Mish said:


> You absolutely could be right in that she would be able to eat bread/potatoes the way you do, but we don't know because she doesn't monitor her blood sugar, ever. Well, at doctor's visits. I guess I give her the stink eye about it because, not only is she eating at least 2 pieces of bread at lunch and dinner, she's also eating cereal, cookies, crackers, ice cream, etc (not just crackers or cookies, but both at different times) for snacks every day. I would say bread/crackers/cereal/cookies make up a good 60 percent or more of her food intake daily. And her health is seeming to be on a diabetes-related decline rather than age-related, so I'm just assuming any of that I can get her to cut out for at least one meal a day would be progress of some sort.


Yeah, she is showing a LOT of signs that her diabetes is not in control. You are right to be concerned.

The thing is, blood sugar control becomes very much easier if she eats small amounts often, which is why she really does need a little bread with her lunch.

Cheerios, however, even plain Cheerios are full of sugar and an entire bowl full is way more than she should have at one sitting. The key to blood sugar control is small amounts often. 2 slices of bread with lunch is good: a bowl of sugary cereal is WAAAY too much carbohydrates!


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## Terri

Mish said:


> It's funny, you are describing what she had going on until about a month/six weeks ago. She used to get really shaky and be super hungry all the time, until her new doc put her on a brand new diabetes medicine (pharmacy had to order it because it's that new I guess?). She says since then she isn't as hungry and doesn't get shaky/weak like she used to in between meals. So that's good, what's bad is that she still goes for the junk when she is hungry.


Can you talk her into eating between meal snacks even when she is not hungry? It helps to avoid the cravings. Eggs for breakfast and Doritos for an afternoon snack are very much kinder to her body than high blood sugar!


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## HermitJohn

Trying to remember if it was last fall or fall before... I without thinking ate several wild persimmons. My feet got that pain they had month or two before diabetes diagnosis. I personally think any diabetic eating stupidly would get same kind punishment. That is seriously unpleasant and only way to relieve it temporarily is to take LONG walks. Keeps one on the straight and narrow. Oh and persimmons like grapes and bananas maybe not best choice in fruit for a diabetic. Low fiber high sugar.


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## Mish

Terri said:


> Yeah, she is showing a LOT of signs that her diabetes is not in control. You are right to be concerned.
> 
> The thing is, blood sugar control becomes very much easier if she eats small amounts often, which is why she really does need a little bread with her lunch.
> 
> Cheerios, however, even plain Cheerios are full of sugar and an entire bowl full is way more than she should have at one sitting. The key to blood sugar control is small amounts often. 2 slices of bread with lunch is good: a bowl of sugary cereal is WAAAY too much carbohydrates!


Ok good to know, I figured the snacking was alright, but just the things she's snacking on were concerning me. She keeps telling me the Cheerios were recommended by her old doctor, so I've been not arguing it, but at least you're making me feel a little less crazy! Not that there's much I can do about it without turning into a harping nag. 



Terri said:


> Can you talk her into eating between meal snacks even when she is not hungry? It helps to avoid the cravings. Eggs for breakfast and Doritos for an afternoon snack are very much kinder to her body than high blood sugar!


She does mid-morning and mid-afternoon snack, and meals on-the-dot, after dinner snack. She was doing pretty well for awhile and snacking on nuts mostly (which the new doc recommended) but then she had a bout of colitis which she was convinced was caused by the nuts (even though the ER doc said infection and antibiotics cured it). So then she went back to snacking on cookies and crackers with full sugar peanut butter. Along with the Cheerios/milk for breakfast, white bread sandwich for lunch and ice cream or cookies after dinner.

I feel like I'm dogging on her here and I don't mean to. I am so thankful that I can talk to you all about it since you know so much more than I do about what it's like. Again, thank you so so much. This is really educating me.


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## Mish

HermitJohn said:


> Trying to remember if it was last fall or fall before... I without thinking ate several wild persimmons. My feet got that pain they had month or two before diabetes diagnosis. I personally think any diabetic eating stupidly would get same kind punishment. That is seriously unpleasant and only way to relieve it temporarily is to take LONG walks. Keeps one on the straight and narrow. Oh and persimmons like grapes and bananas maybe not best choice in fruit for a diabetic. Low fiber high sugar.


I guess with her she has no feeling at all in her feet below the ankles, so no real pain there to remind her. That's the main reason she moved in with us, since she's not able to feel her feet at all she's really unstable walking or doing anything that requires moving around while standing (cleaning, cooking, shopping, etc).

I agree, I like to think if it were me I'd be willing to forgo some foods I wanted to eat in order to have feeling in my feet and be able to walk. Or maybe I wouldn't, who can say until it happens to them? But yeah, I know what you're saying.

Good to know about the grapes - bananas are bad too? She eats one a day with her Cheerios, although she's really careful that they're not overly ripe. Hmmm. This is such confusing stuff.


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## Terri

Mish said:


> Ok good to know, I figured the snacking was alright, but just the things she's snacking on were concerning me. She keeps telling me the Cheerios were recommended by her old doctor, so I've been not arguing it, but at least you're making me feel a little less crazy! Not that there's much I can do about it without turning into a harping nag.


Yeah, cheerios are recommended for your HEART, but her big problem is blood sugar.

Perhaps you could convince her to eat a few crackers and peanut butter for snacks? There is not enough sugar in peanut butter to hurt her, but cheerios are very high in carbohydrates! (as is ice cream, of course!).

Fruit does have some sugar in it, but as long as she only eats one serving of fruit it is OK. The thing about bananas is, one large banana is TWO servings of fruit and not one! An orange is one serving and an apple is one serving but a banana is two servings. That is just the way it is.

I take my diabetes pills in the morning, and so I eat my breakfast when the meds are just beginning to hit my system. Do you know how many carb exchanges my body can tolerate for breakfast? Just one. That is equal to a piece of toast. Mind I can have eggs with that toast but my blood sugar monitor tells me that I only hit my goals if I have one carb exchange and no more carbs than that.

Do you know how many carb exchanges were in the bowl of cheerios and the banana that I used to eat for breakfast? There were SIX carb exchanges in that cereal bowl of cheerios and that banana!!!!

By the way, a packet of sugar free oatmeal has just over 1 carb exchange in it and they come in a couple of flavors, such as apple-cinnamon. She might be willing to eat that for breakfast. I sometimes do for the sake of variety. They are tasty


----------



## Mish

Terri said:


> Yeah, cheerios are recommended for your HEART, but her big problem is blood sugar.
> 
> Perhaps you could convince her to eat a few crackers and peanut butter for snacks? There is not enough sugar in peanut butter to hurt her, but cheerios are very high in carbohydrates! (as is ice cream, of course!).
> 
> Fruit does have some sugar in it, but as long as she only eats one serving of fruit it is OK. The thing about bananas is, one large banana is TWO servings of fruit and not one! An orange is one serving and an apple is one serving but a banana is two servings. That is just the way it is.
> 
> I take my diabetes pills in the morning, and so I eat my breakfast when the meds are just beginning to hit my system. Do you know how many carb exchanges my body can tolerate for breakfast? Just one. That is equal to a piece of toast. Mind I can have eggs with that toast but my blood sugar monitor tells me that I only hit my goals if I have one carb exchange and no more carbs than that.
> 
> Do you know how many carb exchanges were in the bowl of cheerios and the banana that I used to eat for breakfast? There were SIX carb exchanges in that cereal bowl of cheerios and that banana!!!!
> 
> By the way, a packet of sugar free oatmeal has just over 1 carb exchange in it and they come in a couple of flavors, such as apple-cinnamon. She might be willing to eat that for breakfast. I sometimes do for the sake of variety. They are tasty


She is doing the crackers and peanut butter, occasionally so that sounds like it's ok (I always thought peanut butter was pretty sugary, on top of the cracker carbs, shows what I know).

You're kidding me on the fruit? She avoids oranges like the plague because of how much sugar is supposedly in them, but then the banana thing - I had no idea it's 2 servings. 

She takes her diabetes medicine in the morning also. That's really disturbing about the Cheerios and banana. I thought it might not be good but I had no idea how not good it is possibly/probably for her. Man, we both need to see that dietician!


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## frogmammy

Actually, the fat in the peanut butter helps slow the carb digestion. Carbs usually burn fast.

Mon


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## Cabin Fever

I'm going to sound like a broken record because I have shared the successes that my wife and I have had living a WFPB lifestyle several times before. What has helped us kind of flies in the face of what some of the others have been telling you. i understand that everyone is different, and different approaches work well for other people. I respect that. Rather than get into an argument of why I believe some of these other approaches might not work, or might not be the healthiest approach, I am going to talk about our approach instead.

Our approach, the WFPB lifestyle approach, has CURED our diabetes. We both were taking prescribed medicine for our Type 2 diabetes. Myself, I was taking two diabetes meds, at their highest doses, for over 10 years. Now, I take zip, nada, nothing with my doctor's blessing. My last three A1C results have been in the 5 range (below 6.5 is considered non-diabetic). A1C results are looked at as an average blood sugar level for the previous 3 month period. My wife is no longer being prescribed diabetes med, too.

Other benefits that my wife and I have gained from a WFPB lifestyle are weight loss (I've lost 75 pounds in one year), improved blood pressure (my BP runs around 119/69 and my doc has also taken me off of my BP meds), and improved cholesterol results (my doc has taken me off of my chlosterol meds, too). So, in a nut shell, I am as healthy as a horse, my weight is same as it was when I was in college, and I am taking no medications. I am 65 years old, BTW.

So, what is a whole-food, plant-based (WFPB) lifestyle? It is simple. There is no counting carbs, no counting calories, no counting fat grams, etc. The only "requirement" of a WFPB lifestyle is that you eat plants, grains, nuts, etc. that are whole. IN a WFPB lifestyle one tries to not eat refined, processed foods (eg, refined sugar, white flour, white rice, white pastas, white breads, all kinds of oil, etc.)

The hard part for most people doing a WFBP lifestyle is giving up dairy, cheese, eggs, meat, and fish. That was the hard part for me, but I'm over it now. We've substituted mushrooms and black beans for "meat" in many of our old recipes. There are several WFPB egg substitutes for baking. We scramble tofu instead of eggs for breakfast. There are dozens of recipes for making cheese sauces out of cashews and/or tofu.

I have attached a PDF (below) which I feel best describes a WFPB lifestyle. It is written by a large medical/health care company to give to their patients. Not some diet guru who wants you to buy his books, supplements, and food products. Evidently this company wants their patients to be healthy without the use of medications (which can only result in them making LESS money). "Let thy food be thy medicine." 

I also recommend that you watch the documentary "Forks Over Knives" and visit their webpage. Other recommended websites are: www.nutritionfacts.org and www.pcrm.org

If you are a Facebook member, I'd strongly suggest joining this FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WholeFoodPlantBasedDiet This group has over 160,000 members and is chock full of success stories, recipes, and helpful suggestions and support.


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## HermitJohn

Look if you are into measuring out foods in thimblefuls, and eating tiny tiny amounts all day, then sure you can eat ice cream and pop tarts and pure sugar. But seriously, who wants to do that? You are then a complete slave to consciously regulating your blood sugar. Plus you are going to have a high total of carbs per day, far higher than you want. High carb intake is not healthy even if you micro manage it thimbleful by thimbleful so your blood sugar doesnt zoom to the moon. Junk food is still junk food. Its not healthy. But if you want to eat one Cheerio every 10 minutes all day long, hey go for it, at least maybe you will get rid of some of diabetic effects from high blood sugar.

I personally rather severly limit carbs and not have to think about timing and portion sizes. But hey thats just me. And some I guess rather just ignore it altogether, live without toes and die few years early. Its a free world to make your own choices.


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## HermitJohn

frogmammy said:


> Actually, the fat in the peanut butter helps slow the carb digestion. Carbs usually burn fast.
> 
> Mon


Peanut butter is not peanut butter is not peanut butter. Natural peanut butter that is just ground up peanuts probably ok, I will say peanuts will raise my blood sugar some but not zoom it. However Skippy and Jiff have peanut oil removed and replaced with some cheap hydrogenized oil and then bunch SUGAR added. It really makes a difference. The devil is in the details and people keep generalizing and forgetting this.


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## HermitJohn

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm going to sound like a broken record because I have shared the successes that my wife and I have had living a WFPB lifestyle. What has helped kind of flies in the face of what some of the others have been telling you. i understand that everyone is different, and different approaches work well for other people. I respect that. Rather than get into an arguement of why I believe some of these other approaches might not work, I am going to talk about our approach.
> 
> Our approach, the WFPB lifestyle approach, has CURED our diabetes. We both were taking prescribed medicine for our Type 2 diabetes. Myself, I was taking two diabetes meds, at their highest doses, for over 10 years. Now, I take zip, nada, nothing with my doctor's blessing. My last three A1C results have been in the 5 range (below 6.5 is considered non-diabetic). A1C results are looked at as an average blood sugar level for the previous 3 month period.
> 
> Other benefits that my wife and I have gained from a WFPB, weight loss (I've lost 75 pounds in one year), improved blood pressure (my BP runs around 119/69 and my doc has taken me off of my BP meds), and improved chlosterol results (my doc has taken me off of my chlosterol meds, too). So, in a nut shell, I am as healthy as a horse, my weight is same as it was when I was in college, I am taking no medications. I am 65 years old, BTW.
> 
> So, what is a whole-food, plant-based (WFPB) lifestyle? It is simple. There is no counting carbs, no counting calories, no counting fat grams, etc. The only "requirement" of a WFPB lifestyle is that you eat plants, grains, nuts, that are whole. IN a WFPB lifestyle one tries to not eat refined, processed foods (eg, refined sugar, white flour, white rice, white pastas, white breads, all kinds of oil, etc.)
> 
> The hard part for most people doing a WFBP lifestyle is giving up dairy, cheese, eggs, meat, and fish. That was the hard part for me, but I'm over it now. We've substituted mushrooms and black beans for what we may have used to use for meat. There are several WFPB egg substitutes for baking. We scramble tofu instead of eggs for breakfast. There are dozens of recipes for making cheese sauces out of cashews and/or tofu.
> 
> I have attached a PDF (below) which I feels best describes a WFPB lifestyle. It is written by a large medical/health care company to give to their patients. Not some diet guru who wants you to buy his books, supplements, and food products. Evidently this company wants their patients to be healthy without the use of medications (which can only result in them making LESS money).
> 
> I also recommend that you watch the documentary "Forks Over Knives" and visit their webpage. I could other recommended websites are: www.nutritionfacts.org and www.pcrm.org
> 
> If you are a Facebook member, I'd strongly suggest subscribing to this FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WholeFoodPlantBasedDiet This group has over 160,000 members and is chock full of success stories, recipes, and helpful suggestions and support.


And I have replied multiple times to your claim with the FACT that I was a whole food vegetarian since my early 20s, no meat, no dairy, no sugary processed foods. Lots of whole grains and legumes and Irish potatoes, along with other vegetables and fruits of course. No family history of diabetes. I GOT DIABETES. All that whole grain goodness is what gave it to me. So telling me a whole foods plant based diet cures diabetes is a hoot. I was the poster child for whole foods vegetarianism FOR DECADES and GOT DIABETES.

I think a heavy meat diet is bad too. You want a mainly plant based diet with some grass fed or wild meat but you dont want lot carbs. Most vegetarians like I was for decades substitute lot grain and legumes for meat and lot carbs is just like eating lot sugar. Your body treats carbs in grain just like if you ate spoonfuls of sugar. The human body did not evolve to consume high quantities of carbs/sugar. Grain became popular when human populations escalated and they started forming large concentrated population centers. Frankly grain was only way to feed that many people that lived one place their whole life.

My diabetes is also under control with no diabetic medicines. ITS NOT CURED, and no full blown diabetic ever is. If you are "cured" that means you can go back to eating like you did before with no consequences. I know I cant, I will eat low carb rest of my life. It has other health benefits so not a bad thing, though in a society where grains and grain derived food ingredients are in and on EVERYTHING, its not easy. 

But maybe you are magical or something. So lets see how cured you are and as a test you eat like you did before with no consequences??? Hmmm??? Either that or admit your diabetes is controlled, NOT CURED? Not being on diabetic drugs is not cured, it just means you have it controlled by diet.

EDIT: controlled by diet and exercise.


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## HermitJohn

If there is a cure to type2 diabetes, it will be something like I mentioned in thread on General Chat sometime back: https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/t...daily-insulin-injections.590062/#post-8215562

I wish this was more extensively tested and was mainstream. I would so go for a reset. Oh I would stay low carb diet, but not having to think about everything I eat be really nice. This also probably explains why people that get gastric bypass suddenly lose type2 symptoms. It basically destroys these same cells like the hot water in balloon treatment, forcing them to regenerate fresh and new. But dont change diet and it will come back.


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## HermitJohn

Mish said:


> I guess with her she has no feeling at all in her feet below the ankles, so no real pain there to remind her. That's the main reason she moved in with us, since she's not able to feel her feet at all she's really unstable walking or doing anything that requires moving around while standing (cleaning, cooking, shopping, etc).
> 
> I agree, I like to think if it were me I'd be willing to forgo some foods I wanted to eat in order to have feeling in my feet and be able to walk. Or maybe I wouldn't, who can say until it happens to them? But yeah, I know what you're saying.
> 
> Good to know about the grapes - bananas are bad too? She eats one a day with her Cheerios, although she's really careful that they're not overly ripe. Hmmm. This is such confusing stuff.


Fiber is everything in fruit for a diabetic. The best fruits seem to be berries (I pretty much can eat unlimited raw blueberries and raspberries and blackberries with no consequences) and of all things peaches. I can eat a big raw ripe super sweet peach again with no consequences. Now apples, I can eat Granny Smith with basically no consequences, but other commercial apples anymore are super sweet and will raise my blood sugar. Pears, Kieffer, no problem. Bartlett will raise my blood sugar. and so on. The devil is always in the details. It matters both how much sugar is in them and also how much fiber. Generalizing foods without taking into consideration differences will get you into trouble. Of course if you eat everything by the thimbleful over time, you can eat even pure sugar with no consequence.


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## newfieannie

HJ do you eat any bread at all. like WW etc.?


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## HermitJohn

Oh, couple years ago found out I can eat pomegranates with no problem. Didnt grow up eating them so something different and eating them is kinda fiddly, but its nice to have options.


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## HermitJohn

newfieannie said:


> HJ do you eat any bread at all. like WW etc.?


Just my hotcakes made from sunflower seed meal and flax seed meal combined with egg and bit olive oil. No wheat or other starchy grains. I can tolerate small amounts of millet and canned hominy but it just isnt really worth the bother. Yea no idea why canned hominy is ok as other corn isnt. Nobody ever mentions canned hominy on diabetic sites. Probably just not that popular of a food but assume the processing of it changes something. I found out cause I had can of it in back of cupboard back after diabetes diagnosis and I was testing all kinds of food. I still cant have over like half cup of it, but its a nice addition to say a stir fry. Different texture.


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## HermitJohn

Oh also mention I have gotten to using bit unsweetened cocoa powder as a seasoning. It adds a richness to some things without affecting blood sugar. As seasoning isnt bitter either. Of course dont use any sweetened chocolate.


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## Mish

So much information...I am going to take some time to look at the links/suggestions posted and try to slowly read everyone's comments carefully so I don't miss anything, and post back with some questions later today.

I really can't thank you all enough for this information, you've taken so much time to type all this out I don't want to miss anything, and I don't want you thinking I'm not reading it (busy day today!) because I most definitely am. I want to give this the attention it deserves.

Thank you guys! Lots of questions incoming


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## HermitJohn

Its a pain to find the raw carob, but mentioning cocoa powder thought of it. Its healthier and even adds bit sweetness. But have to special order it. Regular roasted carob is different though still ok I guess. The raw ground carob is better IMHO. But I use regular baking cocoa cause its easy to pickup in any grocery store.


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## Terri

Not everybody is the same. 

Cabin Fever got relief from diabetes from eating whole plant based foods, which makes my blood sugar go up. I eat meat and veggies which made Cabin Fevers blood sugar go up. Cabin Fever is off of all diabetic meds which is great: I do take pills but my last A1C was 5.3 which is also great. 

What works for a person works for a person.


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## Cabin Fever

Terri said:


> Not everybody is the same.
> 
> Cabin Fever got relief from diabetes from eating whole plant based foods, which makes my blood sugar go up. I never said veggies made my blood sugar go up. I eat meat and veggies which made Cabin Fevers blood sugar go up. Cabin Fever is off of all diabetic meds which is great: I do take pills but my last A1C was 5.3 which is also great.
> 
> What works for a person works for a person.


I think it was the standard American diet that made me a Type 2 diabetic. I never, ever said or hopefully never implied that veggies were causative in my former Type 2 diabetes. I believe it was my diet which was the consumption of high fat and deep fried foods (eg, fried chicken bacon, ham, etc) as well as refined flour, refined sugar, dairy consumption (e.g., pastries, white bread, ice cream, whipped cream, white pasta, etc) that caused my Type 2 diabetes.

I truly believe that eating foods high in fat and oils can have an effect on diabetes. The following quote is from the PCRM, an organization supported by 1000s of physicians

_"The old approach had us cutting down on carbohydrates. It’s true that overly processed carbohydrates—those made with sugar or white flour, for example—are poor choices. However, delicious unprocessed or minimally-processed foods, such as potatoes, rice, oats, beans, pasta, fruit, and vegetables, were the main partof the diet in countries where people were traditionally fit and trim and where diabetes was rare. Unfortunately, highly processed carbohydrates and affordable meat and cheese dishes have moved in, and now we have a worldwide type 2 diabetes epidemic.

A low-fat vegetarian approach recognizes that whole-food carbohydrates are fine; it’s the fat in our diets that is the problem. New information suggests that fat in animal products and oils interferes with insulin’s ability to move glucose into the cells. Eating less fat reduces body fat. Less body fat allows insulin to do its job. However, choosing skinless chicken, skim milk and baked fish is not enough of a change for most people to beat diabetes.

The new approach eliminates fatty foods and animal protein,such as meats, dairy products, and oils, and offers unlimited
grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables...."_

You can read the entirety of this information in the PDF below.


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## Cabin Fever

And, don't be mislead in thinking that only carbohydrates are converted to glucose when consumed. Protein (meat) and fats can also be converted to glucose (sugar) when digested.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/273899-do-fat-protein-turn-into-glucose/


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## Terri

Cabin Fever, I am curious. Can you come up with a 500 calorie Whole Foods meal that has only 2 or less carb exchanges?


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## Cabin Fever

Terri said:


> Cabin Fever, I am curious. Can you come up with a 500 calorie Whole Foods meal that has only 2 or less carb exchanges?


I have no idea what a carb exchange is.


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## Terri

Cabin Fever said:


> I have no idea what a carb exchange is.


15 grams of carbohydrates, which is about the grain equivalent of a piece of bread, and the fruit equivalent of a medium apple..

Back when I was newly diagnosed with diabetes, I stuck my finger after every meal. That let me know what I could eat without my blood sugar going up. ne thing became clear: there was a limit to how many carbs I could eat at one time. This is one reason why many diabetic people balk at the Whole Foods diet: we cannot figure out how to get enough calories without eating more carbs than our diabetic bodies will tolerate.

Edited to add: THERE WAS A TYPO! It should have said 15 grams of carbs in a carb exchange, not 1!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Cabin Fever

Terri said:


> 1 grams of carbohydrates, which is about the grain equivalent of a piece of bread, and the fruit equivalent of a medium apple..
> 
> Back when I was newly diagnosed with diabetes, I stuck my finger after every meal. That let me know what I could eat without my blood sugar going up. ne thing became clear: there was a limit to how many carbs I could eat at one time. This is one reason why many diabetic people balk at the Whole Foods diet: we cannot figure out how to get enough calories without eating more carbs than our diabetic bodies will tolerate.


I'm confused. a slice of bread has about 14 to 17g of carbs and an apple about 25g of carbs.


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## Cabin Fever

For us, a WFPB lifestyle is not being foolish in thinking we can now eat all the bread, pasta, cereal, potatoes, rice, etc. that our hearts desire. For example, normally I eat 1 or 2 slices of WW bread once a week (with organic peanut butter), brown rice once a week (usually with stir fry or sushi), WW pasta about once or twice a month (Thai stir fry or mushroom spaghetti), potatoes twice a month (in Budda bowl or oven-baked fries), homemade WW pizza crust once a week (no cheese and no meat on our pizzas).

We do eat a lot of whole grain cereal (rolled or steel-cut oats), on average 5 times per week for breakfast. The oats are loaded with walnuts, blueberries, peaches, cococnut, and cinnamon. 

We try to follow the advice below:


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## HermitJohn

Cabin Fever said:


> _unprocessed or minimally-processed foods, such as potatoes, rice, oats, beans, pasta, fruit, and vegetables, were the main partof the diet in countries where people were traditionally fit and trim and where diabetes was rare._


Economics and lifestyle very different. Those peasants couldnt afford more than minimal diet. Just getting enough calories of any kind was their worry.  That plus long hard manual labor. Very few hard manual labor jobs today, everything is mechanized, though you might want to compare those out in fields picking produce all day every day, doesnt get much harder than that. Guessing they both eat high carb diet but probably dont have high rate of diabetes. Exercise makes big difference. Not getting diabetes doesnt make your diet healthy. Humans didnt evolve to live on a grain diet. Humans been around something like 3 million years. Only consumed grain the last 8000 years. Only consumed processed grain the last couple hundred years. Notice even eons ago the aristocrats and royalty and eventually the fat merchant class did get gout and diabetes and all the other wonders of unlimited food and little manual labor. Also most peasants died before they were 50.

Until recent era type2 mostly occurred in those over 50. Dead peasants that dont live past 50 dont get diabetes. I kinda wonder if it didnt strike those that both ate a high carb diet and no longer had to do long hard daily manual labor.... either on pension in modern world or the younger generation took over the hard manual labor before pensions, when large family was your pension. Course now kids are getting type2. I mean teenagers though wouldnt doubt some pre-teens even have it. Ask yourself what changed. 

Carbs are carbs, there are no "healthy" unprocessed carbs. Just high carb foods that have more or less fiber. Fiber slows conversion of carbs to sugar in blood stream. Brown rice will zoom my blood sugar just as fast as white rice. Still very carb dense food, adding small amount of fiber and some vitamins doesnt change a thing far as blood sugar. Its like claiming brown sugar is somehow better for you than white sugar. Non starchy veggies have carbs just like all plant foods, but very few carbs in comparison to amount of fiber. So even a diabetic with poorest blood sugar control can eat a wheelbarrow of broccoli with no effect. One Irish potato will zoom their blood sugar to the moon.


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## HermitJohn

Cabin Fever said:


> And, don't be mislead in thinking that only carbohydrates are converted to glucose when consumed. Protein (meat) and fats can also be converted to glucose (sugar) when digested.
> 
> https://www.livestrong.com/article/273899-do-fat-protein-turn-into-glucose/


DIETARY FAT CAN NOT BE CONVERTED to glucose. You skipped high school biology class on that day apparently. So did the person with that website. Protein can be converted but inefficiently. You will not get fat nor raise your blood sugar eating dietary fat or protein, no matter how much you eat. Your body only very inefficiently converts protein to glucose and only as a last resort if no carbohydrates are available, as some organs require glucose rather than ketones. Usually this isnt dietary protein, its a last ditch way for body to survive during famine/starvation, it consumes itself to provide glucose for organs that have to have it. If you eat any plant foods at all, any, you have more than enough carbohydrates to fuel your organs.


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## Mish

So, I had this really long list of specific questions but I realized answers to most of them are most likely something like, "it depends."

Tell me if I'm wrong - it seems like at this point we really need to try hard to get her to monitor her blood sugar after eating to see what _she_ can tolerate and what she can't? Terri, as you say, there seems to be such a huge spectrum of what people can and can't tolerate that it seems like this is the only real way to know? 

I do have one specific food question because it's big deal around here...I _know_ I am not going to get her to give up bread/carbs/pasta/cookies/crackers completely. She tells me she was told sourdough is the best bread to eat - which is what my husband was told for his GIRD (and they both have GIRD, but....) - I can't imagine that it's any better for you than white bread for diabetes? If she absolutely has to eat bread, sourdough or whole wheat? And definitely whole wheat pasta/crackers/anything else? I know the advice from some of you is none whatsoever, but if you _had_ to eat bread...?

Terri, Cabin Fever and HermitJohn, I just want you to know how helpful this has all been. You guys are also rock stars, I'm so impressed by the way all of you have taken the bull by the horns and figured out what works for you. And that you taught me that everyone is different, I think I like a lot of people had this idea that there is one perfect diet for diabetes and everyone reacts the same way to everything.

I am going to take all of the links and files and get them onto her computer so that she can do some reading of her own (I also have read and will continue reading them). We had a discussion yesterday about all of this and there is interest in at least trying to change her diet a little. We usually do movie nights on my husband's nights off, so I think we're all going to watch Forks over Knives Tuesday  Even if it ends up not being the way she needs to go, maybe it'll get her brain shifting a little on food in general.

I'm not posting this as a final thread thought, _please_, keep the conversation and ideas going if you feel up to it. I'm learning a ton, and if I can get some movement on this end I will most definitely keep updating.

You guys are awesome.


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## Cabin Fever

Terri said:


> Cabin Fever, I am curious. Can you come up with a 500 calorie Whole Foods meal that has only 2 or less carb exchanges?


FWIW, I made this table showing the ingredients in our typical smoothie. We enjoy this smoothie almost once a day for a meal.


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## HermitJohn

Terri said:


> 1 grams of carbohydrates, which is about the grain equivalent of a piece of bread, and the fruit equivalent of a medium apple..
> 
> Back when I was newly diagnosed with diabetes, I stuck my finger after every meal. That let me know what I could eat without my blood sugar going up. ne thing became clear: there was a limit to how many carbs I could eat at one time. This is one reason why many diabetic people balk at the Whole Foods diet: we cannot figure out how to get enough calories without eating more carbs than our diabetic bodies will tolerate.


I know there was incredible conflicting info on diet for a diabetic. Lot claims, lot gimmicks. Lot of self aggrandized gurus. After diagnosis and doc put me on insulin, I was really scratching my head as I was lifelong vegetarian and "official" diabetic diets were recommending all these high carb whole grain foods, the whole grain diet. Hey I was on a WHOLE GRAIN DIET, thats what gave me diabetes. these whole grain diets assumed everybody with diabetes was eating SAD diet I guess, I wasnt eating any junk food other than occasionally little bag of real black licorice from Australia. Confused doc that I had such low cholesterol and blood pressure was only elevated because of stress my body was under from the high blood sugar. Within month my blood pressure quite healthy and still low cholesterol. While on insulin I had read of the chemical in buckwheat (and mung beans) that helps regulate blood sugar. I switched all grain consumption to buckwheat. I really got to liking cooked whole hulled buckwheat groats as my morning cereal. Whole lot tastier than oatmeal. My blood sugar was doing very well. I was down to like 30 units of insulin. Well, doc said he didnt really understand what I was doing but it was working tests proved it. So he put next appointment six month away. I was curious how I would do without any insulin and tried it on my own. Not too dangerous cause I was already on pretty low dose insulin. Whew, that was an adventure. Blood sugar control without insulin very weak and wobbly. That wonderful buckwheat acted then just like any other high carb food. Not my friend anymore. I went to only tree nuts (almonds and walnuts worked best) , raw low starch produce salads, and avocados, blueberries, and half granny smith apple. That worked. I had it under control. Oddly wasnt hungry though eating lot less and lost 50 pound in six month. By winter I was adding back soup and stir fries as my sugar control had greatly increased. Had really missed cooked food. Then discovered my flax seed and sunflower seed hotcakes. Finally a bread substitute that didnt budge my blood sugar.

I swear in all that time the biggest disappointment was finding that fresh garden raised tomato zoomed my blood sugar. One of lifes little pleasures and it was gone.


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## HermitJohn

Mish said:


> So, I had this really long list of specific questions but I realized answers to most of them are most likely something like, "it depends."
> 
> Tell me if I'm wrong - it seems like at this point we really need to try hard to get her to monitor her blood sugar after eating to see what _she_ can tolerate and what she can't? Terri, as you say, there seems to be such a huge spectrum of what people can and can't tolerate that it seems like this is the only real way to know?
> 
> I do have one specific food question because it's big deal around here...I _know_ I am not going to get her to give up bread/carbs/pasta/cookies/crackers completely. She tells me she was told sourdough is the best bread to eat - which is what my husband was told for his GIRD (and they both have GIRD, but....) - I can't imagine that it's any better for you than white bread for diabetes? If she absolutely has to eat bread, sourdough or whole wheat? And definitely whole wheat pasta/crackers/anything else? I know the advice from some of you is none whatsoever, but if you _had_ to eat bread...?
> 
> Terri, Cabin Fever and HermitJohn, I just want you to know how helpful this has all been. You guys are also rock stars, I'm so impressed by the way all of you have taken the bull by the horns and figured out what works for you. And that you taught me that everyone is different, I think I like a lot of people had this idea that there is one perfect diet for diabetes and everyone reacts the same way to everything.
> 
> I am going to take all of the links and files and get them onto her computer so that she can do some reading of her own (I also have read and will continue reading them). We had a discussion yesterday about all of this and there is interest in at least trying to change her diet a little. We usually do movie nights on my husband's nights off, so I think we're all going to watch Forks over Knives Tuesday  Even if it ends up not being the way she needs to go, maybe it'll get her brain shifting a little on food in general.
> 
> I'm not posting this as a final thread thought, _please_, keep the conversation and ideas going if you feel up to it. I'm learning a ton, and if I can get some movement on this end I will most definitely keep updating.
> 
> You guys are awesome.


Remember that 1917 book was for type2 diabetics before insulin or any drugs were available. Nobody had a blood glucose monitor. Its low carb and works if you can stick to it I think. Just considering your person is in denial and wont test blood sugar. And maybe caters more to mainstream tastes. I really dont like idea of artificial sweetners but even that maybe healthier for somebody that otherwise will sneek sugary treats. Maybe stevia its supposed to be natural, I personally dont like after taste of it... Guessing you arent going to get your family to live on nuts and raw salads.... Try variations of my flax seed meal and sunflower seed meal hotcakes, be lot healthier for diabetic than bread or crackers made from wheat,, etc. I dont really measure it out. Its just my little coffee grinder half filled with flax seed and half with raw hulled sunflower seed (half cup each?) and then whirled. That plus three eggs and some olive oil to make a batter. You can add salt, spices, etc. Its not like wheat bread or corn bread, but is soft and has a pancake like texture. The eggs are what binds ingredients and makes it rise, it has no gluten obviously. And it doesnt boost your blood sugar. Flax seed and sunflower seed are oily seeds so calories from fat not carbs. Fat doesnt raise your blood sugar. Grain is starchy seeds and very concentrated carbs. There are other oily seeds but flax and sunflower most affordable and they actually go well together taste-wise.


----------



## Terri

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm confused. a slice of bread has about 14 to 17g of carbs and an apple about 25g of carbs.


Yes that was a typo, and I have corrected it! It should have read 15 grams of carbs.

And apparently your favored apples are a bit larger than mine: I like Johnathens and they are on the small side of medium


----------



## Terri

Blood sugar in a nutshell.

In a normal body, you eat food and digest it. Your blood sugar starts to rise and so insulin is in the right quantity to keep your blood sugar fairly steady. The insulin works by putting the blood sugar molecules into the cells of the body where the glucose is burned for energy. 

And, if you eat more than your body needs right then the excess is stored, and if your blood sugar gets below a certain point the glucose is released. This means that in a healthy person their blood sugar never gets too high or too low.
......................................

Here is the good stuff. If you eat a spoonful of sugar your blood sugar goes up within a minute or two. In a normal body a bit if insulin is released and that spoonful of sugar is absorbed into the cells in a couple of minutes and the blood sugar stays steady. HOWEVER in a diabetic that is not producing enough insulin, the amount of insulin released will be released slowly, and possibly not enough. So the blood sugar goes up. That is why diabetics are encouraged to eat very little sugar. 

So, sugar hits your system in a couple of minutes or less. 
A starchy vegetable takes a bit longer: am I remembering correctly that it takes half an hour or so? 
Lean protein takes longer..
Fat take HOURS and HOURS to digest, and while some of it can be converted to glucose it does not have to be. That bit is complicated and I will not address it that this time. Fat is not always broken down into glucose.

................................................

What that means for a meal. If a diabetic is hungry and they eat a meal then their body will release some insulin but not as quickly as a non-diabetic does. This can be countered by eating a meal that takes time to digest. Again, sugar is digested in a couple of minutes but protein and fat will take hours, which means that the diabetic diet can trickle insulin into their body. That keeps their blood sugar low.

Fiber also slows the digestion down. 

FOR MYSELF, I like to eat a little carbs with my meal because at meal time I am HUNGRY, and when I digest the carbs my body does release some insulin and then I feel much better. MOST of my meals will be slow digested foods that are full of fiber or lean protein or whatever. This means that the blood sugar trickles into my body, and my body can then release enough insulin to keep my blood sugar down where it is supposed to be. 
..................................................

Not every diabetic takes the same approach. A few diabetics eat one or two meals a day of high fat foods and other diabetics eat many tiny meals. Either approach will work, as in either case their digestion provides their body with a slow, steady trickle of blood sugar. 
..................................................

Now this is a very simplified version of a complicated subject. There are a great many possibilities when dealing with diabetes. For example some diabetics NEVER have their blood sugar go too low, but mine will at the drop of a hat and so I keep light snacks around the house. Because even with the same disease we are not all the same


----------



## Mish

HermitJohn said:


> Remember that 1917 book was for type2 diabetics before insulin or any drugs were available. Nobody had a blood glucose monitor. Its low carb and works if you can stick to it I think. Just considering your person is in denial and wont test blood sugar. And maybe caters more to mainstream tastes. I really dont like idea of artificial sweetners but even that maybe healthier for somebody that otherwise will sneek sugary treats. Maybe stevia its supposed to be natural, I personally dont like after taste of it... Guessing you arent going to get your family to live on nuts and raw salads.... Try variations of my flax seed meal and sunflower seed meal hotcakes, be lot healthier for diabetic than bread or crackers made from wheat,, etc. I dont really measure it out. Its just my little coffee grinder half filled with flax seed and half with raw hulled sunflower seed (half cup each?) and then whirled. That plus three eggs and some olive oil to make a batter. You can add salt, spices, etc. Its not like wheat bread or corn bread, but is soft and has a pancake like texture. The eggs are what binds ingredients and makes it rise, it has no gluten obviously. And it doesnt boost your blood sugar. Flax seed and sunflower seed are oily seeds so calories from fat not carbs. Fat doesnt raise your blood sugar. Grain is starchy seeds and very concentrated carbs. There are other oily seeds but flax and sunflower most affordable and they actually go well together taste-wise.


You might be right about the denial. I agree with you on stevia, I actually grew some a last year thinking it would be good but we just didn't enjoy it.

Nuts maybe, raw salads are ok for some of us but my non-diabetic disabled kid can't tolerate raw greens. Which is ok, she can always bypass the salad, although usually I'll cook the non-lettuce greens up for her and she's ok that way. It's work-around-able if I can find a way to finagle it for everyone.

Your hotcakes actually sound really good, I will definitely have to try it out. I plan on going through that book and the other linked documents with a fine toothed comb hopefully tomorrow when our "weekend" starts, and pulling her in with me if I can. Hopefully something clicks for her. Definitely going to have to try out those hotcakes either way though! Thank you!

*edit* - and it would KILL me if I couldn't eat garden fresh tomatoes. You have my deepest, most sincere sympathy.


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## Mish

Terri said:


> Blood sugar in a nutshell.
> 
> In a normal body, you eat food and digest it. Your blood sugar starts to rise and so insulin is in the right quantity to keep your blood sugar fairly steady. The insulin works by putting the blood sugar molecules into the cells of the body where the glucose is burned for energy.
> 
> And, if you eat more than your body needs right then the excess is stored, and if your blood sugar gets below a certain point the glucose is released. This means that in a healthy person their blood sugar never gets too high or too low.
> ......................................
> 
> Here is the good stuff. If you eat a spoonful of sugar your blood sugar goes up within a minute or two. In a normal body a bit if insulin is released and that spoonful of sugar is absorbed into the cells in a couple of minutes and the blood sugar stays steady. HOWEVER in a diabetic that is not producing enough insulin, the amount of insulin released will be released slowly, and possibly not enough. So the blood sugar goes up. That is why diabetics are encouraged to eat very little sugar.
> 
> So, sugar hits your system in a couple of minutes or less.
> A starchy vegetable takes a bit longer: am I remembering correctly that it takes half an hour or so?
> Lean protein takes longer..
> Fat take HOURS and HOURS to digest, and while some of it can be converted to glucose it does not have to be. That bit is complicated and I will not address it that this time. Fat is not always broken down into glucose.
> 
> ................................................
> 
> What that means for a meal. If a diabetic is hungry and they eat a meal then their body will release some insulin but not as quickly as a non-diabetic does. This can be countered by eating a meal that takes time to digest. Again, sugar is digested in a couple of minutes but protein and fat will take hours, which means that the diabetic diet can trickle insulin into their body. That keeps their blood sugar low.
> 
> Fiber also slows the digestion down.
> 
> FOR MYSELF, I like to eat a little carbs with my meal because at meal time I am HUNGRY, and when I digest the carbs my body does release some insulin and then I feel much better. MOST of my meals will be slow digested foods that are full of fiber or lean protein or whatever. This means that the blood sugar trickles into my body, and my body can then release enough insulin to keep my blood sugar down where it is supposed to be.
> ..................................................
> 
> Not every diabetic takes the same approach. A few diabetics eat one or two meals a day of high fat foods and other diabetics eat many tiny meals. Either approach will work, as in either case their digestion provides their body with a slow, steady trickle of blood sugar.
> ..................................................
> 
> Now this is a very simplified version of a complicated subject. There are a great many possibilities when dealing with diabetes. For example some diabetics NEVER have their blood sugar go too low, but mine will at the drop of a hat and so I keep light snacks around the house. Because even with the same disease we are not all the same


This makes total sense. I wonder if she's craving the carbs for the same reason you eat them, she needs that energy kick right at that moment - or is it that she just likes the high carb food? I think that's where we have the problem, she keeps telling me her new meds don't make her feel like she has to eat right now or she'll pass out, and she's told me she's not starving all the time on them like she used to feel on the old medication. So I guess I'm assuming either she's carrying on a habit from when she did need the carb kick, or she just likes the bread etc. and isn't relating it to how it's affecting her (which seems to be badly, she mentioned last night her feet/legs have been feeling worse, and this is after she stopped eating nut snacks and went back to her normal crackers and cookies).

I guess that's where I'm wondering if the blood sugar meter would help figure it out, if we could talk her into getting one and using it. Because I don't think what she's doing is working and I can't figure out another concrete way to figure it out, and me assuming the blood meter is somewhat concrete?

Thank you, I really appreciate all the help and information.


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## Cabin Fever

@Terri, that was a very good synopsis. Thank you. The one item you didn't discuss is the role that fats and oils can have in worsening diabetes. The fats in our diets can exacerbate the severity of diabetes. Fat in animal products, and refined oils, interferes with insulin’s ability to move glucose into the cells. Your body may be producing sufficient insulin, but if your natural insulin gets rendered ineffective by fats and oils, BS readings can show a spike. Reducing the consumption of simple carbohydrates, consuming complex carbohydrates (which result in less of a BS spike), and reducing consumption of fats and oils can all have a role in controlling diabetes.


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## Terri

Mish, cookies and ice cream are flat out delicious. That is a fact.

Also, nd this was a hard one for me, high blood sugar feels good. When I got my blood sugar stabilized I really missed that "AAHHhhh" feeling I used to get after dinner. It felt just like you feel after a Thanksgiving meal.

Also when you are hungry it is hard to resist sweets. I think that my subconscious sees that I feel bad and knows EXACTLY what will bring my blood sugar up as fast as possible. So when I am hungry it is terribly hard to resist sweets
..............................................................
Cabin Fever, yes I did leave out the bit about fat interfering with the function of insulin, and I did it on purpose because it is hard to explain.

According to my glucose monitor, the only time that fat interferes with my insulin function is when I am on steroids. And, steroids make my diabetes very much worse. This leads to the topic of how much fat is too much fat and how severe the diabetes needs to be before fat becomes an issue. Because I was trying to get to the bare bones of diabetes I did skip it.

For me, if I eat a little fat then my triglycerides and cholesterol both drop. I also find it easier to keep my blood sugar steady, which might be why my bloodwork improves when I eat a little fat. However it should be noted that I dislike most fats, and so I do not eat much fat anyways. It might be one of those cases where a little bit of something (like salt) is fine, but too much of the thing will be harmful.

For me, a nicely seasoned baked chicken breast does not raise my blood sugar. But, a Kentucky Fried Chicken chicken breast will raise my blood sugar for 3 hours, possibly because of the fat. I do not know for certain what causes KFC to raise my blood sugar, but my glucose monitor says that it does. So I rarely eat KFC


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## HermitJohn

It depends on the kind of fats. You dont want hydrogenized fat, you dont really want chemically processed fat of any kind. I mostly use olive oil and some grape seed oil and avocado oil. and no-salt butter. No effect on my blood sugar. Unprocessed animal fat doesnt seem to affect me either. 

By way most type2 produce as much insulin as their non-diabetic neighbors. Their body just cant use it properly, they become insulin resistant. Thus one treatment is to give excess insulin beyond what body produces in order to force the cells to accept the glucose. Now type1 diabetics truly dont produce enough insulin. They have no choice, they either inject insulin or die.

I have mentioned in past, some study back in 1975 at one of the big research medical universities. They autopsied 5000 bodies of people that died with type2 diabetes. Nearly all had nice normal fully functioning pancreas. Nearly all also had non-alcoholic fatty liver disease to some extent. Its not all Insulin, the liver plays a major role in blood sugar control. Pancreas is more a way to fine tune things, the liver does the majority of the heavy lifting. If the liver isnt doing its job, the pancreas cant make up the difference.


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## HermitJohn

Terri said:


> For me, a nicely seasoned baked chicken breast does not raise my blood sugar. But, a Kentucky Fried Chicken chicken breast will raise my blood sugar for 3 hours, possibly because of the fat. I do not know for certain what causes KFC to raise my blood sugar, but my glucose monitor says that it does. So I rarely eat KFC


Duh, what kind of fat do you think KFC uses? Could it possibly be the cheapest lowest quality that they can find?


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## Mish

Terri said:


> Mish, cookies and ice cream are flat out delicious. That is a fact.
> 
> Also, nd this was a hard one for me, high blood sugar feels good. When I got my blood sugar stabilized I really missed that "AAHHhhh" feeling I used to get after dinner. It felt just like you feel after a Thanksgiving meal.
> 
> Also when you are hungry it is hard to resist sweets. I think that my subconscious sees that I feel bad and knows EXACTLY what will bring my blood sugar up as fast as possible. So when I am hungry it is terribly hard to resist sweets
> ..............................................................


Really. That's interesting about the feeling you get after eating, had no idea. I totally get going for a certain thing when you're really hungry, mine's chips instead of sweets, but same result 

So the husband had a small chat with her at lunch (since it's his mom I figured it's safer than me doing it!), trying to plan out our weekend activities. I've been keeping him updated on what you all have been telling me, and we figured a movie might be a good door opener to conversation at least.

He mentioned the Forks over Knives movie as just something to watch for movie night, and after he read her the synopsis, she wasn't interested. Said she was already on a diet. He nicely said he just thought we could watch it because almost everyone in the house has some health issues that diet definitely affects, and also that he was worried the diet she was on might not be helping (also saying his GIRD isn't completely controlled so he might be able to use the info, too, which is true but also not to put this all on her). Pretty much got shut down right away. No interest in blood sugar monitoring because, "My numbers are good when I go to the doctor." Not sure if she's missing the point about how it might go up and down depending on what you eat on purpose or truly doesn't think it's an issue, or maybe thinks we're trying to control her so is just not going to think about doing anything differently. Humans are so complicated.

Discouraging. But, since I'm the one that cooks dinner and she can only decide whether she wants to eat it or not, I'm still going to go for it as much as possible. Now, to figure out ways to not make it overtly obvious what I'm doing so I don't end up with a hunger strike (or two)...

Separately, I'm reading the fats discussion but it seems way above my pay grade at this point. Fascinating though.


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## reneedarley

very interesting reading. Unfortunately, I cannot add much - but sourdough was mentioned. 20 years ago I started having stomach pains after eating white bread. Luckily I did not suspect gluten but changed my bread recipe -more wholemeal and a sourdough starter. Have you noticed how the sourdough consitency changes?. The dough gets more crumbly as it sits. if you leave it for more than a couple of days you cannot roll it out to make flat bread. It just falls to pieces. The sourdough changes the make up of the gluten and makes it easier to digest.


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## Mish

reneedarley said:


> very interesting reading. Unfortunately, I cannot add much - but sourdough was mentioned. 20 years ago I started having stomach pains after eating white bread. Luckily I did not suspect gluten but changed my bread recipe -more wholemeal and a sourdough starter. Have you noticed how the sourdough consitency changes?. The dough gets more crumbly as it sits. if you leave it for more than a couple of days you cannot roll it out to make flat bread. It just falls to pieces. The sourdough changes the make up of the gluten and makes it easier to digest.


That's where I get confused. I know the doctor told my husband that, if he must eat bread, sourdough is best for his GIRD/acid reflux because it's easier to digest and thus gentler on his stomach. Makes sense to me, and what you describe makes a lot of sense in that situation - switching from whole wheat to sourdough has helped his stomach problems. Although stopping eating bread altogether (or eating it very rarely) has helped more.

Where I get confused though, is with diabetes, if you want the slow release of the sugars, wouldn't white sourdough be just as bad as white bread for that? Easily digestible isn't necessarily a good thing in this case - or am I wrong? She does contend with GIRD/acid reflux as well, which is maybe where I think she got the idea that sourdough was better than wheat bread, although the diabetes is definitely her more pressing problem so I'd think you'd want to lean toward what is better for that rather than the GIRD...ack what do I know?

It's a little more frustrating too because I make homemade sourdough bread for the younger one, because it's easier on her digestive tract than store bought (I'm assuming having something to do with chemicals or preservatives, don't know why but she doesn't react poorly to homemade), and the husband, and myself 'cause, bread. The older one refuses to eat that and wants the store bought sourdough that is pretty much just like Wonder Bread in consistency (pretty sure it is just white bread with little starter added for flavor).

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Which is why I ask, because I may not be understanding all of the nuances here.


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## Terri

Mish said:


> Easily digestible isn't necessarily a good thing in this case - or am I wrong?


You are correct.

However sugar is added to most commercial bread. And most sourdough has a much longer rising time, which means that if sugar was added to the bread then the yeast will have had time to eat all of the sweetening. In that respect sourdough would be just slightly better. That was one theory, anyways

Remember that food takes a bit to be digested: if your MIL eats no carbs at all she might be as hungry when she finishes her meal as when she started to eat, which is very frustrating! Been there done that. For that reason I eat some grain products every day. I just avoid eating too many of them at one sitting. This morning I ate low-fat cottage cheese and a couple of crackers: for lunch I ate a sandwich. Some bread is fine: too much is not good at all.


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## Mish

Terri said:


> You are correct.
> 
> However sugar is added to most commercial bread. And most sourdough has a much longer rising time, which means that if sugar was added to the bread then the yeast will have had time to eat all of the sweetening. In that respect sourdough would be just slightly better. That was one theory, anyways
> 
> Remember that food takes a bit to be digested: if your MIL eats no carbs at all she might be as hungry when she finishes her meal as when she started to eat, which is very frustrating! Been there done that. For that reason I eat some grain products every day. I just avoid eating too many of them at one sitting. This morning I ate low-fat cottage cheese and a couple of crackers: for lunch I ate a sandwich. Some bread is fine: too much is not good at all.


So, if I can ask, what type of bread to you eat when you do? (you probably have already said and I lost it somewhere, sorry!) 

I mean I understand wanting to eat bread - it is one of the few things I would live off of if I could - but if she's going to eat as much of it as she does, which type would be least bad? I'm thinking whole wheat/grains would trump sourdough, or is that not the case because of fermentation?

*edit - and I'm a bread making fiend, so if I could get her to eat my bread I could totally make whatever...to avoid the chemicals and sugar if nothing else.


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## Terri

For me it matters very little what kind of bread that I eat: whatever kind it is I can only eat a couple of slices at a time. Supposedly whole wheat is better than white bread, and I prefer the taste of whole wheat, but when it comes to blood sugar it does not matter all that much for me.

It might matter to your MILs blood sugars, but without a glucometer how could you tell?

Eating some bread means that I can have a sandwich for lunch and a piece of toast when I eat eggs, etc. It leaves me more comfortable in my own skin. And, because I wish to be healthy I have given up eating great slabs of home made bread hot from the oven: instead I eat thin slices of warm bread and I eat only as much as my body can tolerate.

Us diabetics must take responsibility for our own foods: when I serve the family spagetti and meatballs I eat a lot of meatballs and the noodles are a side dish. Meanwhile the family eats heaps of noodles. Nobody makes me eat this way: I dish up my own plate. I eat this way because my glucometer tells me that I must if I am to stay healthy.


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## Mish

Terri said:


> For me it matters very little what kind of bread that I eat: whatever kind it is I can only eat a couple of slices at a time. Supposedly whole wheat is better than white bread, and I prefer the taste of whole wheat, but when it comes to blood sugar it does not matter all that much for me.
> 
> It might matter to your MILs blood sugars, but without a glucometer how could you tell?
> 
> Eating some bread means that I can have a sandwich for lunch and a piece of toast when I eat eggs, etc. It leaves me more comfortable in my own skin. And, because I wish to be healthy I have given up eating great slabs of home made bread hot from the oven: instead I eat thin slices of warm bread and I eat only as much as my body can tolerate.
> 
> Us diabetics must take responsibility for our own foods: when I serve the family spagetti and meatballs I eat a lot of meatballs and the noodles are a side dish. Meanwhile the family eats heaps of noodles. Nobody makes me eat this way: I dish up my own plate. I eat this way because my glucometer tells me that I must if I am to stay healthy.


I hear you. I guess it's frustrating because she's not really taking responsibility (or I feel she's not, which could be untrue). Having to feed several people who do enjoy and can handle carbs, and hoping she'll avoid them or just take small portions isn't working so then I end up feeling responsible for having them on offer. Maybe I just need to change my mindset instead of trying to change hers. 

Thank you, Terri. My thick skull


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## Cabin Fever

FWIW, these are the two breads we eat.

http://www.daveskillerbread.com/21-whole-grains-and-seeds








https://silverhillsbakery.ca/our-products/sprouted-organic-ancient-grains-big-reds-bread/


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## HermitJohn

If you are going to keep grain in diet, you are in for that battle over extreme portion control. One cherrio every ten minutes. That sort of thing. Thats the only way to eat lot carbs and keep blood sugar under control. I dont envy anybody fighting losing battle of getting a diabetic to cooperate that just doesnt want to cooperate. Seems lot more rational to try and prepare tasty low carb meals with unlimited portions. Believe me you wont overeat on fat or protein. Your body is lot more sensitive to those than overeating on carbs. It will tell you in no uncertain terms, STOP EATING. With carbs you always seem to be able to pack away a bit more until you are bursting at the seams. Always room some how for that second piece of pie with ice cream....

I remember being in one of exam rooms in doc office and leaning against wall. I could hear doc talking to another diabetic in another exam room. He is an old army doc and was really reading riot act to this person. Person simply wasnt following directions. Now me he found odd since from getgo I was looking for my own answers and wanting to deal with this head on soon as possible. Even when he was just trying to get me stabilized. Grain/bread tastes good, but if thats what I gotta give up to get back control then thats what I have to do. Trying to cheat behind doctors back makes no sense whatsoever. If anything go more extreme, anything to get back control soon as possible. My body not the doctors body. He is just selling advice. Dont want to change habits, then he has whole bunch of expensive diabetic drugs and eventually surgeries to chop off parts of body no longer getting adequate blood. Thats just a dead end. A painful dead end.


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## Mish

Cabin Fever, those do look like good breads! Although, do you really want to eat bread that says "killer" right on the label?! hehe Seriously though, those look delicious.



HermitJohn said:


> If you are going to keep grain in diet, you are in for that battle over extreme portion control. One cherrio every ten minutes. That sort of thing. Thats the only way to eat lot carbs and keep blood sugar under control. I dont envy anybody fighting losing battle of getting a diabetic to cooperate that just doesnt want to cooperate. Seems lot more rational to try and prepare tasty low carb meals with unlimited portions. Believe me you wont overeat on fat or protein. Your body is lot more sensitive to those than overeating on carbs. It will tell you in no uncertain terms, STOP EATING. With carbs you always seem to be able to pack away a bit more until you are bursting at the seams. Always room some how for that second piece of pie with ice cream....
> 
> I remember being in one of exam rooms in doc office and leaning against wall. I could hear doc talking to another diabetic in another exam room. He is an old army doc and was really reading riot act to this person. Person simply wasnt following directions. Now me he found odd since from getgo I was looking for my own answers and wanting to deal with this head on soon as possible. Even when he was just trying to get me stabilized. Grain/bread tastes good, but if thats what I gotta give up to get back control then thats what I have to do. Trying to cheat behind doctors back makes no sense whatsoever. If anything go more extreme, anything to get back control soon as possible. My body not the doctors body. He is just selling advice. Dont want to change habits, then he has whole bunch of expensive diabetic drugs and eventually surgeries to chop off parts of body no longer getting adequate blood. Thats just a dead end. A painful dead end.


I think you're right, I'll just do what I can and the rest is up to her. I don't think she's being obstinate just to be obstinate, I do think she's been given advice on what to eat over the years, but I also know that she can tend to pick and choose what she hears and what she doesn't. And, like I've mentioned, she has GIRD also, which I think confuses her because I don't think they've clarified that this advice isn't for someone with GIRD _and_ diabetes, it's just for someone with GIRD.

Just different personalities I guess. I think I'm more like you, I'd rather give up something I really love to eat than have a body part lopped off or go blind. I think she thinks that it's just inevitable to lose your feet or your eyesight, and she's "old" already (her words, not mine) so why bother depriving herself. I get it, but don't get it at the same time.

I'll do what I can...


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## HermitJohn

Cabin Fever said:


> FWIW, these are the two breads we eat.
> 
> http://www.daveskillerbread.com/21-whole-grains-and-seeds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://silverhillsbakery.ca/our-products/sprouted-organic-ancient-grains-big-reds-bread/
> 
> View attachment 75894


If you can find and afford (its pricey) 100% sprouted grain bread, that might be an answer. Sprouting converts lot of those carbs. Grain is seed and the carbs are the food for the baby plant as it starts growing.


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## reneedarley

I sprout beans and grain to put in my sourdough bread. One's sourdough is unique to oneself. No matter how much you scrub your hands -when making bread , you "imprint " it with your strain of sourdough. (Not sure in a bread machine) I brought my sourdough with me from Denmark and have had the strain for 30 years. My bread tastes slightly sweet but has never seen a particle of sugar. I have a diabetic friend who is very careful to check his sugar and it is one of the few breads he can eat.


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## HermitJohn

Terri said:


> For me it matters very little what kind of bread that I eat: whatever kind it is I can only eat a couple of slices at a time. Supposedly whole wheat is better than white bread, and I prefer the taste of whole wheat, but when it comes to blood sugar it does not matter all that much for me.
> 
> It might matter to your MILs blood sugars, but without a glucometer how could you tell?
> 
> Eating some bread means that I can have a sandwich for lunch and a piece of toast when I eat eggs, etc. It leaves me more comfortable in my own skin. And, because I wish to be healthy I have given up eating great slabs of home made bread hot from the oven: instead I eat thin slices of warm bread and I eat only as much as my body can tolerate.
> 
> Us diabetics must take responsibility for our own foods: when I serve the family spagetti and meatballs I eat a lot of meatballs and the noodles are a side dish. Meanwhile the family eats heaps of noodles. Nobody makes me eat this way: I dish up my own plate. I eat this way because my glucometer tells me that I must if I am to stay healthy.


I have not lived with another person in literally decades. Other people without diabetes just arent going to change diet significantly to make life easy for you. I just dont buy or bring carb foods into the house. Most living with other people dont have that luxury. Also personally given a choice with limited amount carbs allowed, I rather have extra piece of raw fruit than grain.


----------



## newfieannie

that sprouted stuff must be like the Ezekiel bread made by a jewish company in Halifax. I can get that no problem. I must try it. it's close to 5dollars a loaf I think.


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## newfieannie

ok I found it for 4dollars. at the superstore. Sprouted Organic Ancient grains.


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## HermitJohn

newfieannie said:


> ok I found it for 4dollars. at the superstore. Sprouted Organic Ancient grains.


At $4 I would look really close at ingredient label what they cheaped out on. This stuff usually like $6 to $8 a loaf for real deal, unless you can get it discounted cause its set around long time. Not that easy to find real whole wheat bread for $4 a loaf. That soft brown colored wonder bread doesnt count.


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## reneedarley

HermitJohn said:


> At $4 That soft brown colored wonder bread doesnt count.


That should be forbidden by law


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## Evons hubby

My docs recommend low fat, low carb diet for me. Breakfast is usually three eggs, fryed in one pat of butter, served on a single slice of store bought honey wheat bread. For supper I normally go with about half a chicken breast, or small serving of pork, maybe some green beans or other green veggies, maybe a bowl of chili made with low fat ground beef and a tortilla. I also like steamed veggies such as broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus and the like. Low fat cottage cheese, lite sour cream are also regulars at our house. At least once a week I splurge and have biscuits n sausage gravy. I try to limit myself on those to no more than two biscuits and a healthy scoop of gravy at a setting. I've done the math, would rather have one more biscuit for desert, leave the pie and cake n ice cream for others! My Yvonne still don't "get it" after all this time that a cold biscuit n sausage gravy Sammy is better than ice cream or pie to me!


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## frogmammy

Maybe your MIL figures that at 80-something years, she should enjoy the life she has left and not worry about sugar control? As Terri said, above, if the woman does not WANT to control her diabetes, there's really not a lot YOU can do about it. Let the chips fall where they may.

Mon


----------



## HermitJohn

frogmammy said:


> Maybe your MIL figures that at 80-something years, she should enjoy the life she has left and not worry about sugar control? As Terri said, above, if the woman does not WANT to control her diabetes, there's really not a lot YOU can do about it. Let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> Mon


I suppose the value of wonder bread and ice cream to life worth is in the eye of the beholder. But watching close family commit slow suicide not a fun activity. Especially when you have to provide the poison.

It does take some getting used to a grain-free low carb diet. But when you stop worrying about what taste sensations you are missing out on, its NOT UNPLEASANT. Low carb foods are not nasty, they just arent cookies and candy. Depends what those high carb foods are worth to you, worth your life? And hey you want your high carb foods as a diabetic, you sure can have them but it means you have to eat tiny amounts spaced out all day long and get some serious exercise. YOur body isnt going to regulate your blood sugar automatically anymore, you now have to consciously do it one way or another. Which takes lot time and effort and a will of steel, if you want to continue with a high carb diet.


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## HermitJohn

http://www.wildyeastblog.com/bbb-sprouted-grain-bread/

Was looking at link cabin gave. His KILLER bread is not 100% sprouted, its multi grain bread, mostly flour/meal with some spouts added to justify higher price. I think link above gives better idea of REAL sprouted bread. You use ALL sprouted grain, just barely sprouted. And if diabetic probably leave out any sugar or honey unless just touch when proving the yeast.

America, land of greed, if there is a way to make it sound like you are getting more than you should be getting for the price, thats what is done. Like I mentioned the brown colored wonder bread. Americans like soft bread but were told to eat whole wheat for health so you get manufacturers coloring wonder bread brown.


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## HermitJohn

Ok, first link Cabin gave IS NOT SPROUTED AT ALL: 
INGREDIENTS:
Organic whole wheat (organic whole wheat flour, organic cracked whole wheat), water, 21 Whole Grains and Seeds mix (organic whole flax seeds, organic sunflower seeds, organic ground whole flax seeds, organic un-hulled brown sesame seeds, organic triticale, organic pumpkin seeds, organic rolled barley, organic rolled oats, organic rolled rye, organic un-hulled black sesame seeds, organic millet, organic rolled spelt, organic blue cornmeal, organic brown rice flour, organic yellow cornmeal, organic amaranth flour, organic rolled KAMUT® Khorasan wheat, organic quinoa, organic buckwheat flour, organic sorghum flour, organic poppy seeds), organic dried cane syrup (sugar), organic wheat gluten, organic oat fiber, organic molasses, sea salt, organic cultured whole wheat, yeast, organic vinegar. 

Contains: wheat.

Manufactured in a facility that uses tree nuts, dairy and soy.

Contains no animal products.

The second link is partially sprouted grain: 
INGREDIENTS
Organic sprouted whole red fife wheat, organic seed and grain mix (brown flax seeds, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, millet, sprouted khorasan wheat, sprouted barley, sprouted buckwheat, sprouted purple corn, sprouted rye, sprouted spelt, golden flax seeds, hemp seeds, amaranth, quinoa, chia seeds, poppy seeds, sorghum, sprouted red lentils, sprouted green lentils), water, organic vital wheat gluten, organic cane sugar, yeast, cultured wheat flour (wheat flour, bacterial culture), sea salt, ascorbic acid.

Contains wheat and sesame seeds. Made in a peanut and tree nut free facility.

And even the sprouted grain still has 14g of carbohydrates per slice.


----------



## HermitJohn

The devil is always in the details. Always.










Nutrition label for wonder bread:

Nutrition Facts: Serving size: 1 Slice (26g); Servings per container: 26; Calories: 60; Fat calories: 5; Total fat: 0.5g; Saturated fat: 0g; Trans fat: 0g; Cholesterol: 0mg; Sodium: 130mg; Carbohydrate: 13g; Fiber: 0g; Sugars: 2g; Protein: 2g; Vitamin A: 0%; Vitamin C: 0%; Calcium: 10%; Iron: 4%; Thiamin: 8%; Riboflavin: 4%; Niacin: 4%; Folic acid: 6%.

A slice of Wonder Bread has less carbs per slice than Cabin's Sprouted Multigrain.


----------



## newfieannie

ok I think I found it this time. 100% sprouted organic whole grains . Ecekiel bread. I think this is the 8dollar stuff you mentioned HJ. that's what I paid for it anyway.no flour whatsoever.

I tried it when I came home . it is good tasting. wish I had bought more. sure it is expensive but it has 22 thin slices. I can make it last a month if I have to.I don't think that's too bad at all for a month considering that ole soft stuff that they are passing off as ww is almost 3 dollars. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie

I hadn't read HJ's last post when I posted. I may have to rethink this and see what all is or not in that bread I just bought.


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## HermitJohn

Yea, its been while, but the 100% sprouted is good and filling. You can tell difference. But whew on the price. I think you did get the real thing at $8 a loaf. Only people paying that much know exactly what they want and make sure they are getting exactly that. Not a spur of moment thing. If you can stretch it out a month then yea probably ok deal. 

As cheap as wheat is, not sure why any quality bread is over $2 a loaf. But thats just me. Whatever I think is a fair price, double that to get the actual price. The cheapo wonder bread type stuff probably should just never existed in first place.


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## Cabin Fever

newfieannie said:


> ok I think I found it this time. 100% sprouted organic whole grains . Ecekiel bread. I think this is the 8dollar stuff you mentioned HJ. that's what I paid for it anyway.no flour whatsoever.
> 
> I tried it when I came home . it is good tasting. wish I had bought more. sure it is expensive but it has 22 thin slices. I can make it last a month if I have to.I don't think that's too bad at all for a month considering that ole soft stuff that they are passing off as ww is almost 3 dollars. ~Georgia


The other brand of bread I posted about in an earlier comment is less pricey than Ezekiel. And, IMHO, better tasting.


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## kinnb

I LOVE me some Dave's Killer Bread!! I can get it for 2/$4 at a local bakery outlet. Publix wants $5/loaf for it. 
(no dog in the diabetic scene here, just Dave's has now spoiled me for life on bread)

@Mish , I applaud the hell out of you for working so so so hard on this. Also giant props to @Cabin Fever and @HermitJohn and @Terri for all the success you bring to the respective collaborative table!!


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## frogmammy

You mentioned having the woman go to a dietician/nutrionist....you're going WITH her, right?

They will come up with a plan for the woman to have what she likes, only not as often, in different amount, or a different style/type. DH LOVED his donuts and he and the dietician worked it out so he could have ONE a week...not glazed, but ONE plain cake donut. DH nearly declared a national holiday once a week. They also came up with ways he could have the foods he loved, just "different". I know others that want their pint of ice cream, so they look for one with lower carbs. Then there's those who say, "I'm eating right", as they finish their 3rd plate of roast beef, mashed potatoes & gravy, 4 rolls, potato salad, cottage cheese, and "might as well" have piece of pie with ice cream "because I've been good". (that last one died quicker, with more things wrong with him)

Some people find that they're diabetic and decide they've been given a death sentence, so continue life as usual, after all "it's going to kill them anyway, might as well enjoy themselves". Other's figure they're old enough, it just doesn't matter, they're dying anyway. Find out **WHY** she isn't paying attention to her health, and that will go a LONG way toward helping her live a GOOD life, longer.

And since we got off on bread...I love a GOOD Black Russian Rye, when I can find it, or in a pinch, a dark rye....hate the light stuff. Either one can be difficult to find in a store in a half-loaf.

Mon


----------



## Mish

frogmammy said:


> You mentioned having the woman go to a dietician/nutrionist....you're going WITH her, right?
> 
> They will come up with a plan for the woman to have what she likes, only not as often, in different amount, or a different style/type. DH LOVED his donuts and he and the dietician worked it out so he could have ONE a week...not glazed, but ONE plain cake donut. DH nearly declared a national holiday once a week. They also came up with ways he could have the foods he loved, just "different". I know others that want their pint of ice cream, so they look for one with lower carbs. Then there's those who say, "I'm eating right", as they finish their 3rd plate of roast beef, mashed potatoes & gravy, 4 rolls, potato salad, cottage cheese, and "might as well" have piece of pie with ice cream "because I've been good". (that last one died quicker, with more things wrong with him)
> 
> Some people find that they're diabetic and decide they've been given a death sentence, so continue life as usual, after all "it's going to kill them anyway, might as well enjoy themselves". Other's figure they're old enough, it just doesn't matter, they're dying anyway. Find out **WHY** she isn't paying attention to her health, and that will go a LONG way toward helping her live a GOOD life, longer.
> 
> And since we got off on bread...I love a GOOD Black Russian Rye, when I can find it, or in a pinch, a dark rye....hate the light stuff. Either one can be difficult to find in a store in a half-loaf.
> 
> Mon


I'll go with her if she allows it. She's still trying to hang onto as much independence as she can (which I can understand), and I'm trying not to butt in too much with the medical stuff until/unless she needs/wants me to. She's my husband's mother, also, which makes a difference in how much I can push (if it were my own mom I'd probably be a lot more pushy, 'cause I can get away with it  ).

I think, honestly, she's trying to pay attention to her health, she's just got a lot of bad information or picks and chooses the information she wants to hear. Both she and her husband were diabetic for a long time (he's since passed away), so I think a lot of what she knows is based off 20+ year old information, more recent information she's gotten in a group class (that doesn't take into account her GIRD problems so she ignores it), or she'll read something on the internet/hear it on the radio and not be critical of the source because she likes to eat whatever they mentioned. Plus she's kind of the type that gets defensive of her independence, so if we suggest something and don't say it exactly the right way, forget it, forever.

"Because I've been good" is a catchphrase around here... ::sigh::

I think a personal dietician session would be a good thing and get her moving in the right direction, but it's her decision whether to ask for the referral or not. We're just stupid kids that don't know what we're talking about, so at this point I'm just trying to sneak stuff in there, and out of there, when/where I can.

On the bread topic, it is SO hard to find rye bread out here. Extra hard to find good rye bread. I went back home to Ohio a couple years ago to visit my Grandma and there was rye bread everywhere, I hadn't realized it was almost missing from stores here until then. Sourdough everything, everywhere out here, so funny how things can tend to be very regional.


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## newfieannie

I don't have diabetes either but I try to get all the info I can on it. I saw what it did to my husband and his daughter . they blamed it on their years of cruising and the rich foods they had eaten. but as far as I could see they still weren't watching what they were eating even after having to take insulin twice a day and whatnot.


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## frogmammy

newfieannie said:


> ...they blamed it on their years of cruising and the rich foods they had eaten. but as far as I could see they still weren't watching what they were eating...


Yeah, I think it's all about *inappropriate* food, portion size, and balance.

Ya know, Mish, I think if you tell your MIL of the difficulty you're having planning meals that will fit everyone in the family, and *ask for her help*, she would be happy to help by seeing a dietician/nutritionist WITH you. Usually they allow a family member to be there, and to ask questions. Then have her help you planning meals....hopefully, she will then feel like she has some control over her life, and will make wiser, more educated, choices.

What's her A1C been running?

Mon


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## Mish

frogmammy said:


> Yeah, I think it's all about *inappropriate* food, portion size, and balance.
> 
> Ya know, Mish, I think if you tell your MIL of the difficulty you're having planning meals that will fit everyone in the family, and *ask for her help*, she would be happy to help by seeing a dietician/nutritionist WITH you. Usually they allow a family member to be there, and to ask questions. Then have her help you planning meals....hopefully, she will then feel like she has some control over her life, and will make wiser, more educated, choices.
> 
> What's her A1C been running?
> 
> Mon


Yeah, she's a little...sensitive. She tends to get her feelings "hurt" very easily or take things the wrong way and then there's a lot of pouting/avoiding people. So, I just try to offer help and then stay out of it if it's declined rather than have to deal with the fallout. Hard to explain but it's touchy.

No idea what her A1C is. She only ever gets tested at the doctor, which she really don't go to unless there's a problem, so not very often. She says last time she went her numbers were good but didn't feel like telling us what good was.

It's a process. Hopefully. lol


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## frogmammy

Even docs are all over the map on what "good numbers" are. Heck, the government allows diabetic truck drivers as long as their blood sugar readings (or A1c) are an *average* of 240 or less.

Just remember, it's a "progressive" disease...she can be doing everything right, but it WILL get worse, either slower or faster. Since she's 80 or so, she's doing better than a lot of diabetics.

Good luck to you, you have a tough row to hoe.

Mon


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## kinnb

@Mish I played with this recipe I found this week, have no idea if it maybe helps with the snack thing, but here you go. I added cinnamon. Nom nom.  http://pureella.com/two-ingredient-cookies-naturally-gluten-free-and-vegan/

there are SO many of the banana based recipes, like for ice cream and all that. might be worth checking?


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## Mish

kinnb said:


> @Mish I played with this recipe I found this week, have no idea if it maybe helps with the snack thing, but here you go. I added cinnamon. Nom nom.  http://pureella.com/two-ingredient-cookies-naturally-gluten-free-and-vegan/
> 
> there are SO many of the banana based recipes, like for ice cream and all that. might be worth checking?


Those do look really good, I might have to try them, sounds super easy too.


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## Terri

Mish said:


> No idea what her A1C is. She only ever gets tested at the doctor, which she really don't go to unless there's a problem, so not very often. She says last time she went her numbers were good but didn't feel like telling us what good was.
> 
> It's a process. Hopefully. lol


A good A1C is below 7. I am fairly sure she is not being honest about her A1C because she does not want to discuss her health with you: many people think that is what doctors are for and do not care to discuss it with family.

Still, she might allow you to meet a nutritionist with her so that you "know what to cook".


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## HermitJohn

frogmammy said:


> Even docs are all over the map on what "good numbers" are. Heck, the government allows diabetic truck drivers as long as their blood sugar readings (or A1c) are an *average* of 240 or less.
> 
> Just remember, it's a "progressive" disease...she can be doing everything right, but it WILL get worse, either slower or faster. Since she's 80 or so, she's doing better than a lot of diabetics.
> 
> Good luck to you, you have a tough row to hoe.
> 
> Mon


Its progressive for many diabetics cause they ignore the condition and eat just like they always have. Or they treat doctor like he is their parent and they are kids, so try to sneak stuff. Not realizing their body isnt going to ignore the cheats. Neither is the A1C test their doc mandates, it will show if you have blood sugar spikes in last three month.

You can definitely control it through low carb, high fiber diet (not consuming enough carbs to spike blood sugar) or else an extreme portion control diet (TINY TINY amounts of high carb foods consumed often throughout the day). The key is not letting your blood sugar rise past 140mg/dl. Its those blood sugar spikes that do the damage.

Without the diabetic using a glucose meter, the only way to control is through a consistant low carb, high fiber diet, and hopefully significant exercise. Without a meter you arent going to know how specific foods in specific amounts at specific timing will affect blood sugar. You are going to have to go for a generalized low carb high fiber diet. Follow that 1917 diabetic cookbook, cooking/eating like that was ONLY option back then, there were no glucose meters and no diabetic drugs. There simply is no cheating if you are serious about controlling blood sugar spikes. No easy work arounds. You just make a choice of controlling it or you live with the consequences resulting from the damage done by blood sugar spikes. Diabetes is a hard task master, there is no sugar coating anything.


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## HermitJohn

Terri said:


> A good A1C is below 7. I am fairly sure she is not being honest about her A1C because she does not want to discuss her health with you: many people think that is what doctors are for and do not care to discuss it with family.
> 
> Still, she might allow you to meet a nutritionist with her so that you "know what to cook".


Unfortunately the official diabetic diets tend to be high carb with portion control. I think they do this so as not to "deprive" anybody of their usual taste treats meaning hopefully less cheating. Meaning they dont work cause few people can do the portion control so just get the idea that high carb foods in any amount are sort of ok and its all gods will so no reason to pay attention. You get docs all worried about sugar, but ignoring that high carb low fiber starchy foods are treated exact same way by the body. Starch is same as sugar far as the body is concerned, so that means you have to keep track of total carbs not just avoid sugary treats.


----------



## HermitJohn

kinnb said:


> @Mish there are SO many of the banana based recipes, like for ice cream and all that. might be worth checking?


Unless you are feeding it to her by the thimbleful every ten minutes, you just as well buy her a ten pound bag of pure cane sugar, (from Hawaii, grown in the sun), and give her a teaspoon and wish her well. Bananas and ice cream are not diabetic friendly foods.


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## HermitJohn

Oh something I found that is sort of ice cream substitute. Aldi has full fat (5% milk fat) plain greek yogurt, just milk, cream and culture. No fillers, flavors, etc. This mixed with some cocoa powder and couple drops peppermint extract is quite good. The extract helps give it hint sweetness though I dont mind it just the cocoa. Now milk of any kind isnt great for diabetic, it has natural sugars in it. But if you want a treat and in small quantities, it wont zoom your blood sugar. The high fat content sort of buffers the natural milk sugar. You can freeze and stir if you want it more ice cream like.


----------



## Terri

HermitJohn said:


> Oh something I found that is sort of ice cream substitute. Aldi has full fat (5% milk fat) plain greek yogurt, just milk, cream and culture. No fillers, flavors, etc. This mixed with some cocoa powder and couple drops peppermint extract is quite good. The extract helps give it hint sweetness though I dont mind it just the cocoa. Now milk of any kind isnt great for diabetic, it has natural sugars in it. But if you want a treat and in small quantities, it wont zoom your blood sugar. The high fat content sort of buffers the natural milk sugar. You can freeze and stir if you want it more ice cream like.


My husband has been dieting lately. He LIKES the sugar-free fat-free vanilla yogurt that has been topped with frozen berries. He claims it is as good as ice cream (I disagree that it is as good as ice cream but whatever) If I cannot find the right kind of yogurt in the stores then I get the fat-free plain yogurt and add vanilla and artificial sweetener


----------



## newfieannie

that one sounds good HJ. I think i'll try it. I don't have any peppermint but I always have Crème de Menthe on hand. i'll use that instead. ~Georgia


----------



## newfieannie

that one sounds good HJ. I think i'll try it. I don't have any peppermint but I always have Crème de Menthe on hand. i'll use that instead. ~Georgia


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## kinnb

@HermitJohn that ice cream recipe you mentioned is the same one I was suggesting; the only difference is that the one I use adds banana to the same ingredients you use, and totally natural peanut butter if you want a different taste. 

having lost several relatives and close friends to diabetes, I understand that cane sugar and the like are not friendly foods.


----------



## light rain

frogmammy said:


> Even docs are all over the map on what "good numbers" are. Heck, the government allows diabetic truck drivers as long as their blood sugar readings (or A1c) are an *average* of 240 or less.
> 
> Just remember, it's a "progressive" disease...she can be doing everything right, but it WILL get worse, either slower or faster. Since she's 80 or so, she's doing better than a lot of diabetics.
> 
> Good luck to you, you have a tough row to hoe.
> 
> Mon


If she is stage 3 kidney she is not as healthy as you think. Kidney failure, diabetes and heart failure tend to travel together... With controlling her bs and not stressing her kidneys she might be able to avoid dialysis. If not, there will be realities she will not be able to ignore....


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> The devil is always in the details. Always.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nutrition label for wonder bread:
> 
> Nutrition Facts: Serving size: 1 Slice (26g); Servings per container: 26; Calories: 60; Fat calories: 5; Total fat: 0.5g; Saturated fat: 0g; Trans fat: 0g; Cholesterol: 0mg; Sodium: 130mg; Carbohydrate: 13g; Fiber: 0g; Sugars: 2g; Protein: 2g; Vitamin A: 0%; Vitamin C: 0%; Calcium: 10%; Iron: 4%; Thiamin: 8%; Riboflavin: 4%; Niacin: 4%; Folic acid: 6%.
> 
> A slice of Wonder Bread has less carbs per slice than Cabin's Sprouted Multigrain.



Yes, less carbs but no fiber and less protein. To me Wonder Bread is not filling and sort of reminds of an air filled sponge...


----------



## Mish

light rain said:


> If she is stage 3 kidney she is not as healthy as you think. Kidney failure, diabetes and heart failure tend to travel together... With controlling her bs and not stressing her kidneys she might be able to avoid dialysis. If not, there will be realities she will not be able to ignore....


I hear you. I don't think she's healthy, and I definitely think she could eat better. But since she's an adult, and not related to me (the guilt stuff that runs in my family doesn't work on her lol), and thinks I'm a young whipper snapper that doesn't know much, there's not a whole lot I can do other than offer her some better choices, I think.

We've (the husband and I) been having talks about what happens when she really loses her mobility if she ends up having amputations...it's not that far-fetched, her feet look awful. I took care of my grandmother for a bit when she was losing mobility, but she was only about 95 lbs and I still struggled physically to get her dressed, in and out of her chair, moving with her walker, into the bathroom, onto/off the toilet, showers, etc. I honestly don't think there's any way I could physically deal with trying to do that for his mother, she's probably upwards of 250. She's going to have to go into a home. I hate doing it but I don't see any way around it because I physically can't manage her.

You'd think that would be motivation enough to change some things. But I don't even think she's thought about it and we're hesitating to bring it up because we don't want it to sound like a threat or scare her. The whole situation stinks


----------



## light rain

Mish said:


> I hear you. I don't think she's healthy, and I definitely think she could eat better. But since she's an adult, and not related to me (the guilt stuff that runs in my family doesn't work on her lol), and thinks I'm a young whipper snapper that doesn't know much, there's not a whole lot I can do other than offer her some better choices, I think.
> 
> We've (the husband and I) been having talks about what happens when she really loses her mobility if she ends up having amputations...it's not that far-fetched, her feet look awful. I took care of my grandmother for a bit when she was losing mobility, but she was only about 95 lbs and I still struggled physically to get her dressed, in and out of her chair, moving with her walker, into the bathroom, onto/off the toilet, showers, etc. I honestly don't think there's any way I could physically deal with trying to do that for his mother, she's probably upwards of 250. She's going to have to go into a home. I hate doing it but I don't see any way around it because I physically can't manage her.
> 
> You'd think that would be motivation enough to change some things. But I don't even think she's thought about it and we're hesitating to bring it up because we don't want it to sound like a threat or scare her. The whole situation stinks


I am sorry that you are going through this. I pretty much know what you're dealing with and at times there will be not easy, clear cut answers.

Make sure that through this you get some time away from the home with no responsibilities. Maybe see a movie, go for a long walk or see a concert. Caregivers can suffer terribly with burnout before they realize it. Except for personal care hopefully your DH is helping with his Mom. Also maybe she would accept guidance/advice more willingly from him than you.

A healthy creatinine level is below 1.2 and a good gfr is above 60. It is vitally important for all of us, but especially those over 60 yrs. old to KNOW what their levels are. And to ask questions of the doctors. There are 5 stages of kidney failure and stage five requires dialysis, a kidney transplant or an acceptance of mortality...


----------



## HermitJohn

light rain said:


> Yes, less carbs but no fiber and less protein. To me Wonder Bread is not filling and sort of reminds of an air filled sponge...


My point wasnt that Wonder Bread is good, its that some magic whole grain bread made in hollow tree by elves isnt any better than Wonder bread for diabetes if it has as many or more carbohydrates. For a diabetic its all about the carbohydrates in controlling blood sugar through diet. You need to severely limit total amount carbohydrate consumed. Substituting whole wheat bread for white bread isnt going to do that. All starchy grain is highly concentrated carbohydrate bomb and little bit extra fiber isnt going to change that. If the bread is made from 100% sprouted grain then that makes a difference since the sprouting process converts lot of the carbs.

My humble opinion better not to dance with the devil in the first place, avoid all grain.


----------



## HermitJohn

Mish said:


> I hear you. I don't think she's healthy, and I definitely think she could eat better. But since she's an adult, and not related to me (the guilt stuff that runs in my family doesn't work on her lol), and thinks I'm a young whipper snapper that doesn't know much, there's not a whole lot I can do other than offer her some better choices, I think.
> 
> We've (the husband and I) been having talks about what happens when she really loses her mobility if she ends up having amputations...it's not that far-fetched, her feet look awful. I took care of my grandmother for a bit when she was losing mobility, but she was only about 95 lbs and I still struggled physically to get her dressed, in and out of her chair, moving with her walker, into the bathroom, onto/off the toilet, showers, etc. I honestly don't think there's any way I could physically deal with trying to do that for his mother, she's probably upwards of 250. She's going to have to go into a home. I hate doing it but I don't see any way around it because I physically can't manage her.
> 
> You'd think that would be motivation enough to change some things. But I don't even think she's thought about it and we're hesitating to bring it up because we don't want it to sound like a threat or scare her. The whole situation stinks


I am sorry, but as long as she makes her own dietary decisions and chooses to not eat wisely for her condition, then its basically slow suicide. Nothing you can really do. There are lot really expensive newer diabetes drugs out there now for those that cant or wont control through diet, if her insurance covers them then can ask her doctor about that.


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## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> My point wasnt that Wonder Bread is good, its that some magic whole grain bread made in hollow tree by elves isnt any better than Wonder bread for diabetes if it has as many or more carbohydrates. For a diabetic its all about the carbohydrates in controlling blood sugar through diet. You need to severely limit total amount carbohydrate consumed. Substituting whole wheat bread for white bread isnt going to do that. All starchy grain is highly concentrated carbohydrate bomb and little bit extra fiber isnt going to change that. If the bread is made from 100% sprouted grain then that makes a difference since the sprouting process converts lot of the carbs.
> 
> My humble opinion better not to dance with the devil in the first place, avoid all grain.


I agree that lowering carbs is the first attack against diabetes. Actually it is the 2nd. 
Educating oneself is the 1st attack.

I have seen with a family member, the difference of eating 160 grams of carbs a day compared to 80 grams of carbs a day. One slice of bread with 12 grams of carbs added to low carb veggies and 10 grams of protein can make a satisfying meal. I am not endorsing eating a lot of carbs, no matter what the source. I do believe the more processed a food is the less healthy it is. And Wonder Bread and most breakfast cereals are poor choices for a meal in my opinion.


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## frogmammy

When I was first diagnosed, I went to a CDE (certified diabetes educator) determined that I would follow the diet she gave me. Unfortunately, the diet she gave me was the constant carbohydrate diet and it was HORRIBLE! She had me at 75 g of carbs EACH for three meals and two snacks per day....a total of 300g carbs per day. My glucose went WAY up, I was starving all the time, eating TONS of lettuce and anything "free", spent a LOT of time in the bathroom, and was miserable. 

It really looked to me like she was trying to force my blood sugar UP so I could take meds to bring it down. And that didn't make a whole lot of sense, to me anyway.

After three months I gave it up and decided the "Methodist Diet" might be the way to go...."all things in moderation". I learned about fast acting and slow acting carbs, learned about balancing protein and fats against carbs, and even now, I keep learning, and try to make ALL my choices wise. (doesn't *ALWAYS* work!)

Mon


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## barnbilder

As far as the "all carbs are bad" thing goes, there is a lot of differences in carbohydrates. It has a lot to do with the glycemic response they initiate. Complex carbohydrates usually are more tolerable for some diabetics compared to table sugar. It is the difference in a slow versus fast glucose dump. This is where whole grain bread will be a little better than white bread. Now some people want a bread that they can make two sandwiches out of, using four slices. There is basically no bread that can do that, and not deliver a lot of carbs at one time. We make bread with soy protein added in place of flour. That way you can cut a sliver of it and get more protein along with your carbs. It is very well tolerated among the diabetics in the family, as long as they don't try to make the four slice double sandwich deal that seems to be an American standard for bread consumption. Bread can taste good enough that you can enjoy a small slice of it, with a meal, without putting anything on it.


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## Terri

It is a common American failing, that some people believe that if some is good that more MUST be better. And, so, when too much is found to be bad for us then some Americans decide that the entire food group must be bad. 

CArbs are not bad, carbs nourish. It is just that some of us must eat them in moderation.


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