# Just LED Lights?



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Got to checking it will cost $50K to convert over to solar. Told my wife we would be better off right now just going with LED lights considering our age.

We just put in Yellowblue Insulation which is suppose to cut our Heat and Cooling cost in half.

Thoughts? Yes I know we could convert little at a time to solar.

big rockpile


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## fullmetal (Nov 2, 2013)

weather you go solar or not, going led first would most likely be a incredible idea! because you never want to buy expensive solar pannels until AFTER you reduce your electric load as much as humanly possibly. if i were in your shoes i would go led, then work to cut every other energy use as small as possible, and only then look into how many panels you need.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Thing is we have Electric Hot water Heater, two Refrigerators, two Freezers, two TV's, two Computers, and Electric for the Shop. This don't include Lights in the House, Coffee Pots, Toaster and Microwave and Whatever.

Our Electric Bill now runs $120 a month, even running A/C in Summer.

big rockpile


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I saw a documentary a couple years ago where they used one light bulb to light the whole house. It was in a stainless steel "box" with fiber optics running from it to boxes in each room that had a "door" to adjust the amount of light you put into that room.I thought it was pretty cool but haven't seen anything on it again.


Wade


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## fullmetal (Nov 2, 2013)

big rockpile said:


> Thing is we have Electric Hot water Heater, two Refrigerators, two Freezers, two TV's, two Computers, and Electric for the Shop. This don't include Lights in the House, Coffee Pots, Toaster and Microwave and Whatever.
> 
> Our Electric Bill now runs $120 a month, even running A/C in Summer.
> 
> big rockpile


well a lot of that could be made to use much less energy (and much less money) for a much lower cost than solar panels. 

for starters solar hot water with either gas or electric back up is fairly cheep and easy to instal but actually has a much higher return on investment than pv panels.

as for the fridges and freezers if you were interested and had basic handyman experience you could cut your energy costs on those by about 97% by building your own walk in fridge and freezer. it sounds hard but it is actually quite easy and the cost per cubic foot is about 1/5 of the price to buy a new fridge or freezer from the store. (most store bought fridges have less than r-15 thats less than a single-wide trailer) simply build a small closet, put extra care into a very good vapor barrier and insulate it to at least r-80 (this is going to be 2 to 3 FEET of insulation on all sides so plan accordingly) then you can either hire someone to run the cooling coils or run them your self (the information for sizes and such is avialible online for free for studying on the hvac testing sites) though unless you have a hvac license you will need to hire someone to do the actual refrigerant charge. 

i cant do much about the computers but i can say that if you have bigger tv's a wall projector is usually about 1/3 the energy and 1/10 the cost per inch.

as for the other things just take a look around and see if maby there is a cheaper way. there may not be but every little bit makes a huge difference when you are thinking of trying to supply your own power down the road


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

how did they install the yellowblue? did they just lay it flat over the insulation in the attic? if so you got ripped off. over time a light layer of dust will stop the reflective properties and will become useless, plus 50% saving... maybe 15-30% depending your place/ weather conditions


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

fullmetal said:


> as for the fridges and freezers if you were interested and had basic handyman experience you could cut your energy costs on those by about 97% by building your own walk in fridge and freezer.



Not anywhere close to 97%......in fact, I'd be surprised if you broke even. Lot of space wasted in walk-in ( so you CAN walk-in ) compared to a standard fridge or freezer that STILL has to be cooled.

Newer appliances have gone to foam insulation, and far more efficient compressors. My old side-by-side fridge, mid 90's Whirlpool, 22cuft, used about 1200kw/hrs/yr according it's 'yellow' energy tag. My newer (2011) GE French door model, 25cuft, uses 550kw/hr/yr. Bigger fridge, half the energy use. That's 1.5kw/hrs/day compared to over 3 on the previous one. 

I built a walk-in cooler.....it's 6'x6'x7' tall.....LOT more cuft, but how much you could use is debatable....I only use it to hang meat to butcher, so it rarely runs. It's insulated with 4" of foam in the walls and overhead, plus the overhead has 12-18" of blown fiberglass on top to boot ( whole butcher room does ). I use a window AC for the cooling. Keeping it at 34 degrees takes about 4kw/hrs/day....not a huge deal when you only run it 15 days/year.

We run four freezers. Two upright, a 15cf, 18cf and two small chest, both about 9cf. As we empty one out, it gets cut off, and we gradually work our way down to 1 or 2 before another beef/hog/garden season fills them again.

We heat with wood exclusively, but do have couple of Mitsubishi mini split heat pumps for summer AC.....they get used maybe month or so out of the summer, mainly in the late afternoon. Whole house fan runs at night as long as the temp drops back into the low 70's or less ( most nights here in the mtns of East TN )

I run a woodshop with numerous 3-5hp electric motors on a part time basis, plus lighting it.

We run cattle trough water heaters, some chicken coop heat and such in the winter.

House lights are LED, or florescent almost everywhere.

House kitchen has electric oven, microwave, dishwasher, dryer ( wife does use clothes line in decent weather ). Cook top is propane.

Water heating is propane for main use, 30gal electric in the meat room ( only turned on when needed) (little 2 gallon under counter in shop bathroom )

Total electric use runs max of 1100 kwhrs (winter/summer peaks) to a low of 600 (spring/fall lows), for an average of about 900/month.

Power runs 9 cents/kwhr here + $12.50 base charge, so a 'typical' bill would run about 100 bucks/mo......except our solar produces more than we consume, so currently they owe us about $1,000 for the excess we've backfed to them.


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## Rollochrome (Apr 9, 2012)

big rockpile said:


> Thing is we have Electric Hot water Heater, two Refrigerators, two Freezers, two TV's, two Computers, and Electric for the Shop. This don't include Lights in the House, Coffee Pots, Toaster and Microwave and Whatever.
> 
> Our Electric Bill now runs $120 a month, even running A/C in Summer.
> 
> big rockpile


Are you trying to be off-grid for the purpose of end of times preps or something of that nature?

Because if you are just trying to eliminate your electric bill, and you're only paying $120 to run all THAT.....you would have to live 42 more years in the red just to break even with the principle cost of the system....and that's not counting how much investment income you would have lost on $60,000 over the course of 42 years, which is considerable. Factor THAT in and you could never live long enough to catch up..

Im all for what you're doing.......but I only read you talking about the electric bill costs so that seems to be your goal.....in which case.....your nice wife is absolutely correct. Buy you some good light bulbs and go on down the road.


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## RDuke (May 11, 2013)

An easy way to save on the electric bill, if using an electric water heater, is to install a water heater timer. It's just a clock timer similar to those used on lamps but it can cut way down on the repetitive heat/reheat cycles that are wasting electricity.
If you are on a regular schedule you just set the timer for 20 or 30 minutes before you intend to use the hot water. It comes on, heats the water and shuts off. You can do this as often as you set it up to run and there is also a manual switch to start the heating whenever you want. Then turn it back off.
The electric water heater and electric oven are the big contributors to the bill. The oven is only used when you need it and we also have the water heater set up the same way, to only run when we plan to use it.
We are just getting on the LED bulb replacement cycle. We started a few years ago with CFL's but they have always been something of a disappointment. So now we will go the LED route. They will probably outlive me.
By the way, our normal electric usage operates ; oven, microwave, HW heater ref., freezer, well pump, boiler oil pump, lights, LED TV, plasma TV (hog), surround sound, 2 computers, printer, washer, dryer, treadmill (when I'm energetic).range hood, bath vent, and whatever. Our bill for this past month, an actual reading, was $49.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

The biggest energy saver is turning things off when not being used. Clear off. Use power strips on tv, computer, chargers, cable box, etc. Clear off when not needed. Don't use stero or tv for white noise to keep you company.

Get a meter, like a Kill-a-Watt, and see where your power is going.


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## Shin (Mar 25, 2014)

Hi folks!

I've switched over to some LED lights, but not all. The ones I've got I notice a bit more of a flicker with than normal bulbs, I've tried various brands, some have it more, some have it less, I'm still deciding how tolerable it is since I've noticed it. If it weren't for that I'd be all for LEDs everywhere.

They definitely use less electricity at least. I've used a Kill-a-Watt, very helpful to find out how much power thing are using.

I've heard of some folks converting old freezers into fridges instead, said they saved a lot of energy with the fridge this way, since it's top opened. Don't know how well this works with the newer appliances though.


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## RDuke (May 11, 2013)

Shin said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> I've switched over to some LED lights, but not all. The ones I've got I notice a bit more of a flicker with than normal bulbs, I've tried various brands, some have it more, some have it less, I'm still deciding how tolerable it is since I've noticed it. If it weren't for that I'd be all for LEDs everywhere.
> 
> ...


The flicker you mention, I don't remember reading about this in any review concerning LED's. How noticeable is it and what is the frequency of the flickering? Have you used a dimmer with the LED's and does dimming change that flicker at all?
Is this the dirty little secret of LED bulbs? We've all been inundated with figures on lumens and color temperatures, heat sinks and light patterns but I've not read about this potential problem (concern) to date.


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## NancyWVa (Mar 7, 2014)

I am 57 ---when I was little and we visited great grandparents in Pa. , they had just gotten electric in the house and they had 1 light bulb that they carried from room to room when they needed light.


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## RDuke (May 11, 2013)

Shin said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> I've switched over to some LED lights, but not all. The ones I've got I notice a bit more of a flicker with than normal bulbs, I've tried various brands, some have it more, some have it less, I'm still deciding how tolerable it is since I've noticed it. If it weren't for that I'd be all for LEDs everywhere.
> 
> ...


OK. I googled LED flicker and learned a lot. I found out if you have dimmers already in place that were used for incandescent bulbs it's a crap shoot as to whether or not they will work for LEDs. There are new dimmers made for LEDs so you have to factor in that expense in addition to the cost of the bulbs when making the switchover.
My current dimmers work well with incandescents and halogens so I may just continue using them. I realize that incandescents are slowly being phased out but the halogens should be available so they will be my go to for the dimmer lights.


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## Solar Geek (Mar 14, 2014)

Your electric costs are exceedingly low. Solar may not pay off for you. Here are our experiences for others considering installing solar. We have done this 2x. 

We have a "due south" facing 10KW system. Installed 2012 and 2013. We paid about $70,000 (seems high but wait!) but got $21,000 tax credit, and about $8,000 state rebates. So final cost of ground mounted system would be $41,000. We spent more than that on a 4KW system in 2003 on last house to show you how costs have come down and how important the tax credits are. We did a top of the line, all American system, turn-key, as I don't want to mess around with it at all (nor does DH). Installer (also a professor on PV/renewables at near by college) is one of our now good friends (he even brings his PARENTS to visit us) and so we get free tuneups and service calls. We give him beer and feed him, and he checks the system and gives me home grown honey.

Net net, when we live here full time, we will not pay any electric at all; but we are only here part time now so can't use solar as effectively as need electric heat, a/c when not here.

All electric house, new, ICF so heavily insulated, aggressive passive solar orientation, and wood stove we try to use most times but electric heat during shoulder seasons. Battery backup for 3-5 days depending on what we run and net metering to utility. 2 standup freezers, other appliances bought in 2011 so fairly new/efficient. 

Our house was estimated to run without solar at about* $350 - $400/month* (based on appliance/heating/ loads, size and extreme amounts of guest usage on hot water and cooking). UNFORTUNATELY, we also have to pay very high daily usage fee to our electric company ($30/month) and our electric rates are approx. 11 cents plus taxes (high!). 

We get lots of snow/ice for months. So our system is not as efficient as somewhere with a better climate. Many times the snow is everyday so between heavy clouds and snow on the panels continuously, we still have to pay. 

That being said, we did use 100% LED lights inside and out even the cans, and our bills are very low for a house our size. No bills of course in summer/spring. 

We will "break even" somewhere before 10 years here and since we are here 2 years already, that means in 2020-2021 or so. We base this on the CONSTANT rise in our electric costs since we live in the middle of nowhere and the supplier has to pay high costs for electricity which are passed onto us.

We would do this again in a heartbeat. We have DDs with boyfriends/fiance who use 4 computers, 4 cell phones and our 2 computers (1 for work), and various cell phones. I cook constantly (on electric stove), can with electric canner (can't use canner on glass top stoves - face slap to me!) and make all our bread. This is just to show we are not living a tough life- completely the opposite. 

From our last experience with solar (4KW expanded to 6 KW), we learned there really are not any costs once installed unless of course the panels were to be damaged by falling trees/lightning direct hit. So your initial cost is it. We fill our batteries. That's it. 

Ok just wanted to share our experiences. Hope this helps.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

You can do smaller projects, like a solar water heater, solar space heater. Passive solar using windows and heat retention. Depending on orientation of house. Greenhouse leanto onto house for heat gain. We have had 12 volt LEDs for years. Saving electricity is easier and more cost effective than making it yourself. We started out with none and added only what is really needed, that is different for everyone. I took advantage of grid power all winter, we put it in to rent the beach cottage. Since I was having surgery I took advantage of having a small oil filled electric heater and even found a small 12 volt freezer for all the salmon I caught. We still used wood heat during the day and grid power to supplement for the freezer. Worked out well. I have a freezer for here, off grid and we are able to rent the cottage, now....James


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## Shin (Mar 25, 2014)

Some people notice LED flicker more than others I think. How much effect it has even unnoticed, is hard to say. Even something you don't notice can affect mood and more! It's a constant flicker after all that's going to register with the brain.

The brand one I picked up from a local store has less flicker than the ones I tried from China and through mail order, but I can still see it. I'm still up in the air about switching over all of mine. Yes it could be the unspoken about catch or flaw to using these things. 

Reminds me of the mental affects of computer monitors and TVs with the flicker of their refresh rate.

I really wanted to switch over entirely to LED before I noticed it.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

your getting good advice reducing usage is first in looking at any off grid conversion 

weigh out the cost with compact florecents at 99 cents each or less and LED still much more money compare watt to watt how long will it take to pay you back the difference if it is over 3 years you might want to wait for LED to come down in price some more I expect it will continue to fall just a 2-3 years ago a 60 watt incandescent replacement LED equivalent was 70 dollars , now they are down to 30 but were still using 10 watts in the configuration I found the hi efficiency compact florescent used 11 watts and the 4 for a dollar compact florescent was 13 watts that is going to take a long time to pay back 

if you get down to the amount of electric you would use if you lived on solar your bill would already be tiny


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Simple solution; . . .Take the stupid dimmers out of the circuit. 
None of my LED's flicker.
One LED above my puter desk has been on for at least 4 years----no flicker..
Two night light type single LED lamps have been on for 2-3 years . . . .they do not flicker.
You have other issues if you have a flickering LED lamp.
Start by getting rid of any dimmers........
LED's do NOT flicker........Unless the power they are fed is pulsing......

Do not blame / say that all LED's flicker . . . they do not.


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## RDuke (May 11, 2013)

Jim-mi said:


> Simple solution; . . .Take the stupid dimmers out of the circuit.
> None of my LED's flicker.
> One LED above my puter desk has been on for at least 4 years----no flicker..
> Two night light type single LED lamps have been on for 2-3 years . . . .they do not flicker.
> ...


Whoa! Take it down a notch please. The OP mentioned the LED flickering but nowhere did he say anything about the use of a dimmer switch. You must read what has been posted in order to add a pertinent comment.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I said . . ."You have other issues"
Meaning that the voltage feeding the LED is not pure DC
Does that help you understand what I said . .???
Most of the time the fault is what I said --a dimmer in the circuit...............
It is also documented that semi functioning GFCI outlets up or down stream from a LED will cause flickering.

Is that simple enough . . . . . Bad voltage = flickering. . . . . . ."other issues"


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Assuming that you utilize zone/task lighting and turn them off when you are done, the energy difference between a LED and CFL isn't much at all. 

Reducing lighting usage and spending your LED budget on an energy saving refrigerator or freezer may well be a better use of your money.


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