# Self-Sufficiency as a Survival Mindset



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

First, let me say that my ideals are not entirely in line with my actions. There are months that we do very well at being self-sufficient. There are months that we do not. I have now reached the comfort level of knowing that we could get by without much hardship in the event of an emergency, but I don't see any reason to live the complete life of an ascetic all of the time. I expect most people are like this. 

Having read books by John Seymour and Charles Long on how to survive off the land and live without a salary, I set about finding a way to do just that. I have no formal education and no high school diploma, so I wasn't going to be able to become a small country doctor or anything of the kind. Most manual labor requires a supervisor of some sort, and I'm not inclined to that sort of thing. So in order to live free, I needed to find something that pays a lot of money for not much work. Computer engineering seemed to be that sort of profession. However, there's a whole lot of working in cubicles for long hours involved with that profession when you're just starting out. Too much for my taste, so I tended to have an on-again-off-again approach to my career. 

In most of our adult lives, we have trouble with time and money. When we have money, we are employed and have no time. When we have time, we are unemployed and have no money. This is a problem I was determined to overcome. I started learning about redundant consolidated systems, finding that it was a technology in wide usage but that few people knew much about. This guaranteed me a large salary and the ability to set my own hours. I finally positioned myself as an engineer who would hop on a plane at a moment's notice and fly somewhere to fix one of these systems. As a frame of reference, these systems are used by large corporations to make millions of dollars per hour, so when they are broken ... it really hurts them and they're willing to pay big bucks to someone who can get it back up and running quickly. 

Thus having an income secured, I was able to go out and acquire a farm. We found a five-acre homestead in northern Illinois that isn't too far from three major airports. So when I feel like working (and need money) I can hang out the shingle and wait for disaster to strike somewhere. The state of our nation's corporate infrastructure is that I usually am turning down work and if I have a three day window in which to do work, I'm picking and choosing who I will go out and assist. All in all, I probably work off the farm about 5 days out of every month from spring to fall, and maybe two weeks out of every month in the winter since I can't do anything else. Most of that work involves hopping on a plane and then working for 72 hours straight to get a problem resolved. Then I come home and sleep for 24 hours. 

So on to the farm stuff ... I have about 1 acre of the 5 under actual cultivation. My family consists of 6 people, with a calorie requirement of about 12,000 per day. Chicken eggs and goat milk provide a big chunk of that, with vegetables and fruits making up the remainder. We don't eat a lot of meat, but do so on occasion. I only "stockpile" when I find stuff I want on sale. Everything else comes from either my farm, the farms of a few of my neighbors, or a local store that I like a whole lot. 

We pick up most of our clothing at the Salvation Army and garage sales. The Salvation Army is a good source of rugged work clothes, if you aren't too picky about a hole in the sleeve or something similar. My wife calls a lot of these "dead man's shirts", since I like to get high-quality stuff in good condition that was probably donated when a child inherited their elderly parent's wardrobe. It last was in style around 1947 maybe, but that doesn't bother me much. The garage sales usually yield newer and better stuff, especially for the children, and often the person hosting the garage sale will take something in lieu of cash, such as a jar of honey or couple of pounds of fresh, ripe tomatoes.

When I do need to buy something new, I spend more money and buy the absolutely most durable and rugged item I can find. I expect that someday it will be found at the Salvation Army and some other man's wife will be referring to it as a "dead man's shirt". You're not going to find that at Walmart. Buying something cheap usually only insures that you're going to have to buy it again and again.

In the spring I do a lot of planting, cultivating, etc. That's a really busy month or two. Harvest time is about the same. I have 4 young boys, so I've got lots of help and the work is pretty fun.

The rest of the time is a little bit of work watering, picking, pulling weeds, and spreading around some compost. For 1 acre, that takes me about an hour, leaving the rest to collect eggs, feed and milk goats, and go check on the beehives. The beehives are new and while I don't spend much time with them, I can see how one might. They are very enjoyable to deal with, excepting the occasional sting. 

During the winter, there's not much going on around here. We eat what we preserved and stored, and then when that runs out (as it almost always does), I start cracking open the stockpiles and we pick up odds and ends from the local grocery store (not a chain!). By the time things are getting real dire and it looks like I'm going to need to be buying ALL of my food, spring is just about around the corner and we can make a meal again out of wild fruits and greens that are in bloom, as well as getting some early producers (cold season crops) on the table (such as turnips and carrots). 

So that's my life in a nutshell. I am not completely independent from the world, nor can I figure out how to be with 4 small children in the house. However we're getting there. The plan is progressing. Here's a few tips:

1. Never buy from corporations. All they sell is junk made in China that won't last. Look around and find the small stores near you. Prices may appear higher at first, but often they are willing to negotiate (whereas Walmart won't be) and especially if you buy in bulk. I can buy peanut butter (something we love but can't make ourselves) for about $0.50 a jar cheaper due to a deal I worked out with the store owner. He orders a couple of extra crates which I'll pick up right at his loading dock. He gives me a bargain because he doesn't have to spend time stocking them on the shelves. 

2. You may can live without a salary, but you can't live without money. At the very least you've got to pay taxes on your farm. However, think very carefully about what money you spend. I don't have a television, microwave, or any of those types of things because I don't need them. I have a radio for news and music, as well as a laptop I bought to use for my off-farm work, and an internet connection which pays for itself through my off-farm work. Every penny which goes through my fingers has been carefully considered. 

3. Never so much as buy a book of stamps without trying to negotiate a better deal. If you buy from a specific store all the time, at the six month point take a big stack of receipts in with you and ask to talk to the owner. Show him the receipts, with the total amount you've spent there over the past six months, and ask what he's willing to do to keep you shopping there. Trust me ... everything is negotiable if you enter into the bargaining with a smile on your face and a willful mind.

4. Rely on nothing mechanical. Calorie power or shank's mare will get almost everything done that you need done on a small farm. The Amish get by just fine that way, and only use draft horses for the larger farms. We could all certainly take a page from the Amish. Nothing is more free than the calories you're burning, especially if you grew those calories in the first place. You'll save money, and be healthier for it.

5. Waste nothing. I'm known in my county as a great peruser of other people's trash bins and junk piles. 

Let us turn this into a dialogue instead of just a one-way diatribe. I'm more comfortable with that. This is more of a peek inside the life of Ernie than I'm normally willing to give. So let's share money-saving tips as well as your own personal economic reductions and lifestyle choices. Feel free to ask any questions you may have, and if it's not too personal I'll respond.


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## shellycoley (Mar 6, 2003)

Ernie, you're my new hero :hobbyhors 

Shelly


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

My husband is a pastor and we've always been frugal out of necessity. I raised most of our food on a postage stamp lot in Houston years ago. The beauty of Houston was that I could garden year round. We lived there for 11 years and it froze twice that I can remember. 

My DH's grandmother taught me to can. She canned everything!! Leftovers, meat, pieces of fish, sausage, jams, and of course, vegetables. She saved all of her seed and planted again the next year. She was the ultimate in self-sufficiency. He did a little blacksmithing and made small wood things to sell at trade day. She made dolls and quilts.

I find myself doing much of the same. I have a small sewing business and up until last month, taught piano. The school system gave us the broilers the 4th graders had hatched and we raised over 400 of them. We sold over 200 of those and gave many of the rest to family. I've canned them in all sorts of ways. We sell eggs and I raise vegetables in a 100 x 100 foot garden. The bees DH raises keeps the squash and beans pollinated and we can lots and lots of food. 

We drive to a local mill for wheat and make our own breads. I make our soap and we hang our clothes to dry. We live on a little less than 3 acres in the city of Raleigh and I hardly ever go to the grocery store. I love coffee....that is one of my vices....so I have to make a run to the store for that. If we buy fruit, I buy it wholesale and in bulk from the wholesale section of the farmer's market. What apples or whatever that we don't eat either get dried or canned. 

We also shop at the thrift stores and garage sales. It is amazing what you can find. I got a Zojirushi Bread Machine for $5 and it works great! I often pick up folks fabric that has been put in huge bags and turn that into purses that sell for $80 or more. 

Self-sufficiency is a mind-set. There are always ways to save money and become more self-sufficient!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm learning from you that are posting... bet others are also.

Angie


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## treesonggal (May 4, 2006)

Ernie,

I've enjoyed reading your posts. You're refreshingly honest and thought provoking.

I was going to start a thread on something along the same line so I'll just chime in here.

First, George and I are by no means producing the food that you do. There's just the two of us. Second, we moved onto this land November 2, 2007, though we knew a few months earlier that we'd be here. We planted a garden but most of the SEED failed. Then a few other challenges came up and we decided against replanting. Fortunately, we'd decided months prior to stock up on toiletries, food and cleaning supplies. We were only moving next door so we just stacked boxes and buckets here in our then empty mobile home. 

Neither of us want to remain here but, it's what we have for now and all it cost was the price of a well and the supplies for the septic. George had owned the 10 acres for 30 years; the mobile home was given to him; and we didn't want a mortgage. Last week this place was appraised for $48,800 - a pleasant surprise as the trailer is a 12x60 with 8x20 addition (factory made) that was built in 1971!!!!!

Anyway, we're at the other end of the spectrum from you. We're 64 and 54, our children are grown, and though we're REALLY poor, we're very content and don't FEEL poor. Years ago I read Charles Long's book, "How to Survive Without a Salary" and I'd recommend it to anyone. 

There are three things we always try to practice:

1. *Never throw anything away until you've exhausted all practical uses of it.* George collected stuff (junk?) for years and has been slowly selling/scrapping/trading most of it. However, some of it seems destined for the garbage. Problem is, we don't pay for garbage pick up. Once we have no need for glass, cans, newspaper, plastic jugs/bottles, or aluminum foil products, they are dropped at recycling. We compost all table scraps, including meat. Once in awhile we have something to burn in an old drum, but that's rare. So...the stuff that seems destined for a garbage hauler began keeping me up at night. What to do with it? One night, I made some off-hand remark about taking a torch to all of it and creating one big sculpture. He said, "Why not? You're an artist." So when the snow leaves and I can stand to be outside, that will be one of my "artistic pursuits."

2. *Whenever you buy or accept something, ask yourself how many uses it has.* I'm reminded of a friend who offered me a blue jean skirt someone had given to her. She had accepted it because she didn't want to be rude. I was crazy about that skirt but, asked myself how much would I wear it. I told her I'd think about it and two days later accepted it. The skirt had enough material in it to make four tote bags that I used at the grocery store. So, where she saw a skirt I eventually saw grocery totes.

3. *Save odd pieces of medical equipment, especially if you're unisured, getting older, have a debilitating condition that will worsen with time, or just want to plant flowers in metal bed pans.* An example: last year I had pneumonia and received a prescription for a nebulizer treatment. The pharmacy filled the nebulizer vials and a medical supply business came out to the house with the machine - a little portable thing that cost $200 and is DISPOSABLE. Truth is, it's not disposable, it's just how they're marketed. So I kept the machine and had ALL the refills on my script filled - knowing that I probably wouldn't use all of them. After three weeks of treatment, I still had two full packs of the vials. So today we're at the doctor's and George is diagnosed with COPD and bacterial pneumonia. I brought a box of the vials with us and asked the doctor about using them. She was amazed that I had saved them; they were not outdated, and she nearly fell over when I said I still had the machine. So a visit that would have cost us well over $400 (office visit, antibiotic med, nebulizer vials, and machine) cost us $18.95 for the antibiotic!!!

Another thing I am often reminded of is something my maternal grandma used to say: "There's more than one way to pluck a chicken." Today, I think I truely understand what she meant.

I could go on but I think you get the idea(s). And yes, it would be great to have a dialogue here!


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## Up North Louie (Nov 29, 2007)

This is a great start, Ernie, et al. I'll weigh in later, but for now, I still need my day job and I gotta hit the hay. 

Keep the stove full, it's cold.

Don


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks Ernie, great post. You're pretty much living what I am hoping to attain. I want to start small enough to provide for my family. A small amount of livestock as well, goats for milk, chickens for eggs and meat, and a large garden. I also want to get into something like plumbing where I can pick and choose my jobs. 

I am curious as to the number of goats to provide milk for a family of 6, and if they forage, or if you feed them all.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I think there are a lot of jobs out there like mine, where you can work from home and/or set your own hours and pick your own gigs. They rarely pay the going rate, however, and you want to avoid those "stay at home - get rich" schemes you see advertised on telephone poles and what-have-you.

I think it might help somewhat if you have an education. I quit school in the 10th grade, having no more stomach then for institutions than I do now. I eventually got a GED, but I haven't sat in a college classroom for a single hour. I find it somewhat amusing that large companies will now pay extravagantly for my services in a crisis when they would have tossed my resume in the trashcan a few weeks before that. I get lots of job offers, particularly after I've just saved some company a couple of million dollars when I show them how to get their system back up and online, but the same qualities that make me good at resolving their crisis would also make me a very bad employee, should I ever lose my mind and actually want to sit in an office somewhere.

Though the money is good, I wish I'd picked up something a little more useful for the rest of my life. When I make that last mortgage payment and can put away my technical hat for good, it's a skillset that is essentially worthless around the farm, where carpentry or plumbing would have been incredibly useful. Would have taken a lot longer to pay for the land, however, and I guess that's the tradeoff.

And thanks to the other posters for jumping in with your comments and tips. Become self-sufficient seems like more of a journey than a destination. We're not there yet, but we're getting closer. And at least now, at this point in our lives, we're moving in a definite direction instead of wandering in the desert aimlessly. It also helps knowing that other people are on the same journey, either ahead of me or behind.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

1. Never buy from corporations. All they sell is junk made in China that won't last. Look around and find the small stores near you. Prices may appear higher at first, but often they are willing to negotiate (whereas Walmart won't be) and especially if you buy in bulk. I can buy peanut butter (something we love but can't make ourselves) for about $0.50 a jar cheaper due to a deal I worked out with the store owner. He orders a couple of extra crates which I'll pick up right at his loading dock. He gives me a bargain because he doesn't have to spend time stocking them on the shelves. 


Something I would like to add to #1. 

Restuarant owners can buy cases of what they call "Number 2" tomatoes and potatoes. These are not your perfect produces you see on the counters. They are mishaped, or too small. They are usually shipped to canning factories or restuarants where the public never see's what they actually look like. They are a whole lot cheaper then the number 1 products. So if you can talk to your nearest restuarant eating establishment they might could order you a 50 # box of tomatoes or a 100 # sack of potatoes at half the price you get from the grocery store. I found this out when I ran a little sandwich shop. We ordered #2 tomaotes and made our own homemade french fries with the #2 potatoes. And they really taste great. Since our little sandwich shop was small we would order by the case to save money and since we couldn't use a whole case of tomatoes in a week we would sell the extra's to the public. A lot of people thought they were homegrown because of how they looked and tasted.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

My husband and I will be buying land and building a home to live in for the rest of our lives. So the plans we are making are with ease of use as we age. The gardens will be raised beds and greenhouse, the house will be made without steps needed at the entry, all doors will be 36" wide, and so on. If we plan on the possibility of becoming handicapped, then if it never happens we will have an open plan home that is easy to care for. If it does happen, we will have total wheelchair access, including a shower that can be wheeled into, no lip.

I think this gives us the most ability to live on our own without needing to remodel after the fact, unless we become pretty disabled. Part of having a survival mindset is preparing for the future in other ways than the immediately obvious, so for us this is a really big part of preparedness.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

at this time for other constraints - live totally self sufficient- it is at least important to KNOW how to do it. Gather info. Try those oil lamps. Pluck a chicken. Grow fruits and berries. Dehydrate. Fix something yourselves. 

Dh has no intention of ever leaving his cubical. He doesn't enjoy it as much as he enjoys the salary, free training, insurance and other benefits. But we do as much as we possibly can for ourselves. And it is substantial- especially if DW is willing to pick up all the slack around the garden, animals and DH is willing to fix supper when DW is too tired. 

I am just writing this to encourage those out there that can't/won't live without the salary. Just do as much as you can.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

learn how to make socks

really...


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## njmama (Jan 4, 2006)

Great thread!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

jerzeygurl said:


> learn how to make socks
> 
> really...


You know, my wife makes very cool wool socks, and no matter how bad my day goes (and sometimes it goes pretty bad) I always feel better wearing those socks. 

Never underestimate the importance of good wool socks. This past year I had food sickness four times, suffered a mild concussion, was stung by killer bees, had 2nd degree burns across my hand, smashed open my thumb building a fence, and punctured a testicle. 

Yet I was able to keep a good attitude about it all by having a nice pair of socks.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

hence the reason we have sheep, really 

so i can make socks,

but you can take a salvation army sweater and make alot of nice socks


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow. Apparently I need different socks, I got a bad mood just reading about what you endured... ugh.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I've enjoyed this thread. I don't know if we will continue to stay long term where we are or not (it's up to God and He hasn't said yet!), but I want to live with less and less reliance on the "system" and more and more on the simple things we can do ourselves.

We live in a small town in Eastern WA State, the climate is a bit severe - very dry, hot in the summer and cold in the winter. We have about 3/4 of an acre. We buy wheat, got a great flour mill at a yard sale for $75 and grind a lot of the flour we use in our home made bread. We have ducks for meat and eggs. I've started canning and recently pressure canning. We grow a vegetable garden for the two of us and also to share with our family (Son, with wife and three little ones and daughter). This year I had a great time making jams and jellies with fruit my neighbors gave us. 

We can't really have livestock at home and I'm not sure about being more tied down to it either. It's not hard to find someone that would feed my horse (at a friend's house) and our dogs, cats and ducks, but finding someone to milk a goat might be more problematic. 

My husband is a teacher and approaching retirement, its nice that he's home summers and is handy with welding, plumbing, wiring, building things, etc. I love to landscape and more and more I'm pointing towards edible landscaping, using fruits and berries that can be a part of the landscape. I'm also looking more and more into medicinal herbs - I was surprised to find that often they are as (or more) efficacious then drugs! My health is improving over time as I eat more natural foods and become less sedentary to take care of them. 

So, having read Ernie's report, I am encouraged to do more. Perhaps I should look into bees this summer. I don't think they take much time or daily care (we do want to travel a bit too!) and both honey and pollination are good. We've already got apples, raspberries, strawberries, etc. I planted currents and gooseberries last summer too. 

Some things I do just for enjoyment, like the hummingbird garden I plan to put in this summer.


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## YoungOne (Aug 22, 2006)

On Our Way!! We moved to our place in June 07' and by the time I finnished the work to get it ready for winter while working 200 miles away we didn't get a garden in. used late fall to turn the soil with a pick axe and a shovel. I was telling my sister how we haven't had a grocery bill over 300 since the move and she was genuinely shocked. I was complaining that it was too high and she thought I was starving my kids! LOL! Barter with smaller stores and buy in bulk. 

*A Side note on getting cheap groceries.* Several times over the years I have helped picking Fruit on a Saturday at a small farm in whatever area I'm in and gone home with a trunck AND backseat full of Fruits and vegtables.


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## Nathan (Jun 8, 2006)

Thanks for the post Ernie as Im working to achieve my own self reliant system.Im currently an apartment dweller with access to rural acreage for my plans.I find that these local farmers are more than happy to supply me with the space I need in exchange for some dependable Help.this city boy gets a nice tan while raking hay from the seat of a Farmall tractor in my spare time


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## adamtheha (Mar 14, 2007)

Well...I live in the middle of the big city, and ALL of our food comes from the Safeways 30 seconds away : ( (For now). I am an aspiring homesteader, and I've been getting a little closer everyday. For me, the biggest thing is self and family education. We do things ourselves when at all possible, and sometimes when not possible! I thought I'd put a list together for people like myself who want to get out, and yet can't right away. This will help you prepare your family

1. Start educating yourself. Change your own oil, belts, and go from there. My first mechanic job was ball joints, and I did most of the job myself!

2. Learn how to plant a garden, and build a collection of seeds. My garden looked like crap, and nothing grew, but I learned a lot! Lessons I won't have to learn again when I have more space to grow.

3. Cut expenses, and have a real plan. I have a plan that requires saving about $700-1000 a month, and will get us out of debt on our own land within 5 years. Make the plan, and make monthly steps. Be realistic ($100 a month spending money isn't realistic, at least for us) Think about the plan, talk about the plan, and LIVE the plan! My friends eyeballs start spinning in their heads whenever I start talking about "livin' in the country" again. I don't care


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## treesonggal (May 4, 2006)

Adamtheha,

Good for you! I did the exact same thing 30 years ago as a single parent with three children. Spent a year saving, visited a nearby flea market picking up things I thought we'd need, then held a yard sale (in an apartment!), loaded up the U-haul with three children and two pygmy goats and headed north. We rented a farm at first and six months later bought 80 acres with an original Finnish homestead, gas lighting, hand-dug well, sauna, two-seater outhouse, pond, granary and lots of work to do. 

We made huge sacrifices to make the move out of the city - something so few people are willing to do today. We ate boxed macaroni and cheese and hot dogs nearly every day. A treat was cinnamon & sugar on toast. On Sundays we had rice and chicken wings. Our apartment complex had NO lawn but I grew tomatoes in buckets and herbs in window boxes.

Unfortunately, I eventually left the place but at the time it was the best decision I'd ever made and taught each of my home-schooled children to be independent thinkers and doers.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

So as for the why ...

At one point, I asked God what I should do with my life, and he directed my attention to my four small boys. "Make of them men, better than you," was the answer. I thought about what I wanted for them, which was primarily a good education and independence and freedom. I thought about how I would go about doing that, discussed it with my wife for many a long evening, and kept coming back to the number one thing that would prevent me from doing this. Money. Everything hinged on money and my fear of doing without it. 

I prayed about it some more, and soon I felt that this was a life calling for me, as real as that of a priest. If I felt God's call to go witness in a foreign land, would I do it? If I felt God's call to become a preacher, would I do it? When it was made clear to me, then I likely would, so I couldn't understand why I had struggled so hard against the call for me to go scratch out a living in the soil and educate my sons. My wife was initially against it, but I told her how strongly I felt and that this was God's plan for our family. She consented, and away we went.

When we began this, I was not secure that I could find enough work. However as soon as we started looking for a farm, the work began pouring in. I was able to prove to the mortgage company (at least on paper) that I wasn't about to run away with 5 acres tucked under my arm and we settled in. God has certainly made my way very easy. I want for nothing. My leap of faith was rewarded immediately. And every time I hold a fresh egg in my hand, or look out across a blooming garden, or watch wild turkeys cross the hill at sunset I feel God's presence.


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## ai731 (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi Ernie,

We're planning to buy our land and start homesteading this spring. But I just read your post to my DH and he wants to know how you punctured your testicle - I think he's having second thoughts!

Jan


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## picklespickles (Nov 3, 2007)

hi. enjoyed this thread. one suggestion i would make to people is to look into if you really need to be paying taxes on your property if you have livestock. in many places, there are breaks. read the fine print on the back of your tax bill if there is any or call up and ask if your livestock qualifies. you might be surprised how little you may need to meet the requirements.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

ai731 said:


> Hi Ernie,
> 
> We're planning to buy our land and start homesteading this spring. But I just read your post to my DH and he wants to know how you punctured your testicle - I think he's having second thoughts!


Ha! Quite stupidly, I'm embarassed to say. In the interest of full disclosure, I was working on a carpentry project and I squatted down with some nails in my pocket. One of them was lined up just right. 

It healed up fine, but that's not a pleasant experience.


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## Woodroe (Oct 28, 2005)

ai731 said:


> Hi Ernie,
> 
> We're planning to buy our land and start homesteading this spring. But I just read your post to my DH and he wants to know how you punctured your testicle - I think he's having second thoughts!
> 
> Jan


I was gonna ask the same ? but chickened out. My first thoughts were nail gun gone bad or barbed wire incident....


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## Collinsfarm (Oct 30, 2007)

Lot of good discussion here. I would offer that Survival/Self-sufficiency encompasses several different things. Ernie begins the thread with the proper mindset, which is paramount. One must make a deliberate decision to survive and be self-sufficient. Next, I would say material preps including foods, tools, and all the things we talk about on this board. Physical preparation is important as in taking care of your body. It's the most important "machine" you have. And then there is spiritual preparation. I personally could not manage without my belief in God and Christ. Each of these "prep categories" will obviously contain many, many different roads for each of us to venture down. I think it's pretty hard for anyone to be spot on perfect with everything and have every base covered. So, that's where like-minded friends come in...and boards like this, where we can learn and share with each other. Thanks to everyone for contributing and participating.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

To me, a self sustaining lifestyle involves the kind of frugality than improves your health and enjoyment of life. For instance, it costs me about .40/loaf to make a fresh loaf of (chemical free) whole wheat bread with freshly ground grains. A similar, (not as good) loaf in the store was 3.25 last I checked, several months ago. I can eat fresh melons and tomatoes and squash and other garden goodies for very small change and my time and effort. I have to stay home with my daughter anyhow, so my time is pretty much my own. I can put up meals in qt jars to be ready any time I need them and if I grew most of the ingredients the cost is very low. A flock of chickens will pay for their feed thru egg sales and you have all your own eggs to eat and the extra roosters for meat. Same goes for ducks. Hatch your own and you don't pay the hatchery for replacements. Actually my birds have been given me an extra dozen chicks about every two or three weeks this winter. I don't even have to run the bator! Most of the yr, many of my birds are able to scrounge their own feed too.

Cook from scratch and your health and pleasure in eating will improve and your bank acct will be healthier also. Buy in bulk and save trips to town, less gas wasted and your vehicle will last longer as will your tires and you will really save on your food bills. Learn to make do. Learn to use your resources wisely. Learn to trust God to see you through.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ernie said:


> You know, my wife makes very cool wool socks, and no matter how bad my day goes (and sometimes it goes pretty bad) I always feel better wearing those socks.
> 
> Never underestimate the importance of good wool socks. This past year I had food sickness four times, suffered a mild concussion, was stung by killer bees, had 2nd degree burns across my hand, smashed open my thumb building a fence, and punctured a testicle.
> 
> Yet I was able to keep a good attitude about it all by having a nice pair of socks.


Sounds like the kind of month (December) I had....(no food poisoning...)

I made the error of a lifetime, and washed a pair of handmade woolen socks... and of course, they never fit again... recently, my GF found them, and of course, they fit her perfectly... she wears them everywhere...


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

Situational adaptation abilities and thinking outside the box are also good things to have when facing less than idea situations.

Since moving from the family farm and starting a family of my own it has been hard dealing with homestead withdrawals. 

After I left my mother, through a situation that is too long to explain, at least gained a temporary male boarder who gives her a hand around the homestead in a greater capacity than I could given my work schedule as a newspaper reporter even though I worked from home the majority of the time.

Living in a town in Johnson County, Kansas is not what I would call enjoyable, rather simply tolerable given the current situation. My wife has a job as a chaplain resident at a Kansas City hospital for a one year term as part of her final education track for ordination. I work for a temporary job agency and with my current assignment, which I started shortly after we moved here, I work in the registrar's office as a web designer/report generator/technology consultant on an on going project to revise and update the registrar office's website.

With the on-call hours my wife has on a regular basis and my need to work extra hours to make up for unpaid state holidays we do have a hard time getting things done around the house that we rent. Sometimes one of us may have to do something by ourselves when the other is still at work.

We also concern ourselves with bills that must be paid because there are no alternatives in the given situation. We must have gas, electric, telephone, water/sewer and trash service given where we are. However, where possible we reduce expenses by trying to use less.

My mother gives us excess food from her pantry when we visit her. The food is part of what she receives from the food pantry she volunteers at and it actually helps keep both her and our expenses down.

As for other aspects of living in town and in an area that would be easily paralyzed by utility outages and/or a major economic or physical event, you figure out where you can find solutions given your personal resources and access to others that may be public shared ones. For example, my wife and I love to camp so we have a good basic selection to camping gear that doubles as emergency supplies in case of a utility outage that lasts longer than a few hours or if we needed to bug out. While I cannot buy every book I would like to have at the moment, we do live in a fairly well endowed county with a good public library system and I have many books checked out from it to enhance my knowledge and skills.

I would disagree somewhat, however, that human power alone is the only thing one needs. Yes, if there is absolutely nothing at all other than human based energy that can be obtained then you go with that. With careful application of mechanized tools you can sometimes make things significantly easier and save a good amount of time. Mulching leaves with a lawnmower in half an hour versus spending approximately five hours raking and bagging the leaves, such as we did this fall made more sense to us. Tilling soil six inches deep for a large garden plot in a two hours with a rototiller makes better use of time than spending days trying to do the same with hand tools. Suffice it to say, sometimes you have to figure out the best solution given the conditions.

Money issues are difficult, yes, but if you figure out ways to make the money count when you do make purchases, as others have stated, it works in your favor. We evaluate what we buy, where we buy it and what value it has in our lives. Sometimes you have to spend more than you would like to obtain a longer-lasting, more substantial long-term effect in your life.

I hate renting a place to live in, as in literal rent and not the annual property taxes sense. I look at what we are paying and think about the land we could buy with it instead. However, give where we are right now it wouldn't buy much, my wife and I may move elsewhere in a several months depending on where she finds a more permanent position and I don't like the control freak atmosphere of Johnson County, Kansas. Rather than be miffed about the situation I am using the time to use available resources around me to do research and educate myself, finding the silver lining in this cloud of metro area suburban/exurban sprawl.

Each person, couple or family needs to figure out their own solution to situations given their own specific conditions. What works for Ernie may not work for others. What works for me would be stated the same way. 

My philosophy is live a simpler life but never discard beneficial means, technology and resources just because they don't fit some preconceived notion. I don't discard all electronic technology just because I think that too much atrophies the mind and body, rather I pick and choose what I find useful to me from the view of long-term benefits. Likewise I don't discount the usefulness of some things that may seem like grown up toys to others, such as ATVs, motorcycles motorboats and such. While I don't have an ATV, motorcycle or motorboat I would like to have at least one of each of those in the future though in examples that I find further the goals that my wife and I have for our future, not simply because they are nice to have.


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## Lowdown (May 24, 2007)

1. Never buy from corporations."

Why?

Is this a socialist viewpoint, i.e, "all corporations are bad, power to the people" type thing or do you have a rational reason for this? Seriously. :shrug: 

I seriously doubt you work for a small mom and pops business that is NOT a corporation if they can afford to fly you all over the place. What if folks took your advice and "never bought" from the corporation YOU work for?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Because spending your money at corporate franchises doesn't help you fit into a community and they are never willing to cut you any special deals. 

No, I don't work for small mom and pops businesses. Of course not. They can't afford it. However if folks took my advice then that wouldn't be the most lucrative market and I'd find something else to do. 

And yes, I DO believe all corporations are bad. By their very charter they must focus on profits to the exclusion of any other principles. If you look at the history of the corporation, it's clear to see that they attract the worst sort of people at the top who are willing to do the worst sort of things. 

I'm not against business or commerce. However I am against an entity set up to maximize profit and eliminate personal risk. 

In the United States today though, they are an economic necessity. You can't hardly buy anything that wasn't produced from one and it's hard to make any income at all that isn't derived from or benefiting one. If more people took my advice and "never bought" from corporations, I think we'd be in a lot better shape as a whole, though I'd probably have had to turn to some other form of labor (which suits me fine).


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## organicfarmer (May 11, 2002)

Not all corporations are bad.

My DH and I had to incorporate our farm to protect our land in case of lawsuit. We were running 2 organic farming locations 90 km apart (we moved several years ago, but continued to farm where we were from and our new place -- we could not afford to stop farming where we were from until the new farm was certified organic or we would have lost our customer base we had spent 10 years building up). DH was driving some of the larger equipment (combine, large tractor, etc.) along heavily travelled roads with great risk at times. As well, he was transporting seed, a small tractor and other small pieces of equipment. Putting assets into the corporation but not the land meant that we were not risking losing our home should something happen. People sue all the time and it can be devastating to a family like ours. Sometimes there are reasons for being incorporated that don't mean you are only concerned about the bottom line. As well, in order for him to carry on his consulting business, he had to be incorporated to get some of the work he does which helps to pay our mortgage and other bills until we are mortgage and debt free. It isn't an ideal situation, but we had to do this for the sake and protection of our family. We still function as a family farm by most people's standards.


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## kypossumdog (Jun 2, 2004)

Ernie said:


> And yes, I DO believe all corporations are bad. By their very charter they must focus on profits to the exclusion of any other principles...


 
I don't believe that corporations are without a choice on how they make their profits, and on what there business decisions hinge upon. The profit at any cost mentality is one that is not exclusive to big business. It can be found in locally owned stores, repair shops, contractors, etc. In truth corporations are supposed to receive guidance from shareholders as to what decisions are made, so I feel the corporate mentality is in truth the public mentality of me before you.



Ernie said:


> However I am against an entity set up to maximize profit and eliminate personal risk.


That's easy to say when your income isn't a direct result of personal assets that could be lost if you're sued, like a farm. If people are protecting their livelihoods and their homes I have no problems incorporating for business purposes. I think itâs prudent and necessary in the sue happy world we live in. I certainly think you'd prefer that people take these precautions rather than expect the government to care for them after they lose everything to some frivolous lawsuit.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Who told you that being incorporated protects your personal assets if you're sued? In most cases it doesn't.

http://www.businessknowhow.com/legal/assets.htm

If I incorporate my farm and then get sued because someone gets stung by a bee within 3 miles of my beehives, then I'm still going to need to hire a lawyer. Because, as the link explains, I'm the principal owner and principal employee I can't deny knowledge that there were bees on my farm, and I can't claim I didn't know bees might sting people. Because my own personal assets (I live on the farm) are shared by the corporation, then if the lawsuit doesn't go my way I'm going to lose those assets and possibly my own personal assets. Incorporation provides no basic protection at all, contrary to what you have been led to believe.

If you're a big corporation, you can probably use incorporation as a shield as has been done successfully before. If you're a very small corporation with few or no employees, then you're screwed. All your personal assets are tied up in the corporation and unless you've been keeping your finances VERY tight, you've been transferring money back and forth between your personal accounts and the corporation. So a jury is going to see that when the prosecution subpoenas your bank records and see that you've eroded the line between your personal and corporate assets. 

Also, incorporation has been severely weakened by district courts in many states in recent years. Remember how they went after Ken Lay? They went after his personal assets without any buffer at all between him and Enron. If it didn't save Kenny-boy, then it won't save you.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Hey guys, the bottom line is this: You can be sued for anything at anytime. That's just a simple rule of life. It's your choice to sit around and worry about it or argue about it. Whether incorporated, protected by an LLC, or insured by Smith and Wesson; we're all at risk if someone sets their sights on our assets. 

Remember the old addage, "it's hard to get blood from a turnip!" ? Folks go for the money in a lawsuit. If you're prone to have a lot of money, you're prone to get suid. In this case, not having much money suits me just fine!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

franismilker - your last statement makes me think of all this identy and credit theft.... I keep saying if they get mine, they'll give it back.... (still digging out of various finacial things).

Angie


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You've got a really good point, Francismilker. (Are you named Francis or do you milk something named Francis?)

Keeping a low profile financially is an important part of survival prepping, I believe. I drive a 1974 Dodge truck around town that looks like I just drove it out of the pasture where it was sitting up on concrete blocks. Mothers grab their children when I drive by in this beast, screaming, "Don't touch it, Johnny! You haven't had your tetanus shot!" When I show up at someone's front door in that truck, offering to haul away a downed tree or mow their lawn for a small fee, they don't think, "I'm going to let him get started and then I'll come up with some reason to sue him." They think, "Holy cow, how'd he get that thing up the driveway?"


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

This is a topic from 4 years ago, but may be useful to new members and refresh thinking of old.

And Ernie does not post here, he's moved and is off setting up his own Texas stead.


But the thoughts here are something good to read and possibly add new thoughts, too.


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## Rainy (Jan 21, 2010)

Gotta go back and reread this all again.. Wow! so much great info in Ernie's post..


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Whoa...just caught the timeline Angie. I was wondering why he was back. ...he never was.


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## ai731 (Sep 11, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> This is a topic from 4 years ago, but may be useful to new members and refresh thinking of old.
> 
> And Ernie does not post here, he's moved and is off setting up his own Texas stead.
> 
> But the thoughts here are something good to read and possibly add new thoughts, too.


Thanks for reviving this thread Angie, it was really neat to read a post I'd made from before we moved out to our homestead!

My comment on Ernie's original post would be that sometimes muscle power isn't enough. Especially when you're a 5'3" woman, and your DH still works in the city to pay the mortgage, so you do most pf the "farm" work... We started out trying to do everything by hand, and after a couple of years realized that we needed some power equipment on the place that I could run. 

Now we very firmly believe in "The Right Tool For The Job." I can keep our orchard mowed with the 40" sickle-bar mower on our BCS walking tractor - I just couldn't do that with the scythe, there weren't enough hours in the day. We realized we couldn't rely on just one vehicle when DH was driving into the city every day, so we bought a old used pickup for me to have on the farm. It took me three years to find exactly the right hoe to deal with the very rocky ground we have for planting, and it wasn't cheap, but it sure does the job better than a spade or a draw hoe ever did.

So my advice is "Find the right tool for the job" and then invest in the very best quality one you can possibly afford!


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