# New to solar and could use some ideas



## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

My DH and I are building an outdoor kitchen for canning and maple sugaring. We wanted to run a few lights and maybe have enough power to run a kitchen aid mixer and were thinking about solar. The building will be 12x16 with the long side facing north/south. Do you think solar would be better then wind. What do you think would be the most economical way to do this?


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

To be entirely honest, the solar + batteries would work for the lights, but the mixer would likely drain your batteries pretty quick. That would be a prime example of using a genny for back up.


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

Solar is great when you have no other options. But to go even with a small stand alone system, you are going to be some money. Wind will only work when it is windy, and breezes don't count. A gennie for some part time use would be your best bet in the long run. If you have power at your house, then you wouldn't need any of the above. 

The only real thing would be if you want to do it as an experiment and just have fun with it.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Yeah we were thinking practice for later on converting to alt. energy


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

The positive side of wind over solar, it can work around the clock IF you have a good windy location. Having both would be best. On days when it is cloudy, you aren't getting enough sun to do much anyways, but it is usually windy then. But things with motors or that create heat, they draw heavily, more than a small bank can keep up with. So you need a lot of huge batteries to store enough juice to run them. Those huge batteries will require a lot of juice to charge, and charge slowly. All this equals big $... all for just a few thing to use now and then? Even if your genny drinks a gallon of gas in a few hours, it is cheaper, and more reliable in the long run.


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

Then maybe buy a smaller cheaper solar panel on ebay or something like that. Then get a cheap truck stop inverter and a couple of batteries, at least the rv type. You won't be out much money and you would learn a lot from doing something like this.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes it would be easy to design a system that would take care of what you ask.

I know little about Kitchen-Aids but I've got the feeling that it has a pretty hefty motor on it . . . . which means more bucks for equipment that could handle that 'heft' . . . .

Does it make sense to put lots of bucks into a system that is only used 'part time' ??

The newer breed of Inverter/generators (Honda started this) make a whole lot of sense . . . . . . . . They idle way down with no/low load (a light bulb) and throttle up when a big load (mixer) comes on . . . . . . .very fuel efficient............

Yes they cost 3-4 times what a 'big box store' cheapy would cost . . 
But the quality and long life is FAR SUPERIOR than that big box cheapy...........

Wind; A decent turbine and tall enough tower = big bucks.
I know I install them........


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

Agreed Jim-mi. I have one of those little Hondas, I call it my electric gas can. It is about the same size as a Jerry Can, puts out about 1k watts, runs about 6-8 hours on 1/8 of a gallon... and is surprisingly quiet. I can carry it to where I need it, and whn we were in the city, could run some essentials off it... just not a coffee maker


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Okay so I just looked up the kitchen aid mixer I have and it's 325 watts! But on a better note, the two milk house lights I am rewiring (rewiring them because they are mogul base) will only end up being 20 watts each. I plan to use the GE LED 90 watt equivalent floods. So maybe, because this is just a practice run, we shoot for just running the lights.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

That would be running watts (325) 

Starting watts/current would more like 4 times that . . . .
Think of a big load like a bread dough hook..........

Thanks Capt Quirk. . . . .nothing like a testimonial from some one who has one........


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> Thanks Capt Quirk. . . . .nothing like a testimonial from some one who has one........


When you're right, you're right. They are great, if not a bit pricey. We got our's in '05, after the rough hurricane season. Paid a bit over $1k for it, but it did most of what we needed; ran the PC, modem, wireless router, tv, cable box, DVD, fans, and a mini fridge. Been through a lot since then, and won't run now, but I want to get it fixed. We bought a 4,500 watt genny from Harbor Freight, and it will run everything on the homestead. It also drinks 5 gallons of gas in about 8 hours, and louder than sin. But, for $300-$400. it does what it needs to.


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

Mav,
Its all in what you can afford or your area is best suited for....I have both....well, will soon to have both.
I have a wind generator on a 75 foot tower and it makes good power in my moderate wind zone area. It was slightly cheaper to build than my soon to be completed solar system. 
Which one produces more power? The solar will by far, but the wind generator took more time to build and requires a bit more maintenance... Yet, solar is practically" sit and forget" and would be less hassle so to speak.....Wind is like sailing on a tall ship always something to do, while solar is a bit more boring....you're a barge hand.

If you are looking for probably the best solar prices and you and your hubby are DIY'ers I would look at Sun Electronics..they probably have the best solar pricing out there....the more you can do for yourself on solar the more you can save!
--Ideas on cost--
I have about a 4600 watt system which will be grid tied. After I account for every nut and bolt and every other do-dad it takes to fininsh it I will have about 8500 bucks in it. You can do the same size system a bit cheaper...say about 1000 bucks cheaper if you use a central inverter instead of micro-inverters.

On average it should generate about 630 kw a month...lol the energy hogs I have with me here at home double that useage!


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks I'll check out their web page


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I feel this is one case that really needs your usage looked at alot closer. 



> ...an outdoor kitchen for canning and maple sugaring. We wanted to run a few lights and maybe have enough power to run a kitchen aid mixer...


While others have thought the lights would be the easier smaller load I disagree. What little I know of maple sugaring this could mean that the lights would easily have to run for 16+ hours a day when solar insolation is at it's lowest for weeks on end. Much of Michigan avberages less than 2 hours in the winter.

While the mixer may draw a larger load it would be used more in the canning season (late fall), I presume, and then only for maybe an hour or less a day. This time of year would have higher insolation so it would really only be using the excess prodution.

It would be best try and work up a monthly or seasonal chart of how much you expect to use each item and calculate the daily averages. Design the system for worse case depending on usage and insolation available. 

http://www.gaisma.com/en/dir/us-mi-country.html should beable to get you close on the insolation monthly insolation averages. so it's just a matter of calculating and posting your monthly expected used watthours to calculate what is needed.

I would plan on either using 12VDC for the lights or a 2 invertor system. No since in wasting alot of energy by having a large invertor running just to power the lights.

WWW


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Maverick, you're on the right track. A small, affordable system is all you need... That stuff is cheaper today than it ever has been. 
I like solar photovoltaics... its an entirely low maintenance system. 
The only drawback is its intermittent nature, which gets you into energy STORAGE questions. Batteries take some effort to maintain, they are heavy, and require all sorts of metal to produce. They should be placed in a protected area where they wont freeze, and ventilation has to be provided to prevent build-up of hydrogen gas...

But, with those caveats a battery system can be an easy and reliable way to store energy. 

I stay away from wind power, partly because theres too many trees around here, but mostly, because of the maintenance issues. Too many moving parts.

Look into the Samlex inverters... Like this one, true sine and a modest price. Plus, enough power for that 325 watt blender +startup load, although just barely. 

http://www.amazon.com/Samlex-SSW-1000-12A-Pure-Sine-Inverter/dp/B004OU8UK4

Here is another one slightly more powerful, better features, but almost twice the price...
http://www.amazon.com/SAMLEX-ST1500-124-INVERTER-TRANSFER-SWITCH/dp/B0071AWC2G


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

wy_white_wolf said:


> I would plan on either using 12VDC for the lights or a 2 invertor system. No since in wasting alot of energy by having a large invertor running just to power the lights.
> 
> WWW


 Good point...


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Greg thanks for the links


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## AgrarianDr (Mar 25, 2011)

Capt Quirk said:


> The positive side of wind over solar, it can work around the clock IF you have a good windy location. Having both would be best. On days when it is cloudy, you aren't getting enough sun to do much anyways, but it is usually windy then. But things with motors or that create heat, they draw heavily, more than a small bank can keep up with. So you need a lot of huge batteries to store enough juice to run them. Those huge batteries will require a lot of juice to charge, and charge slowly. All this equals big $... all for just a few thing to use now and then? Even if your genny drinks a gallon of gas in a few hours, it is cheaper, and more reliable in the long run.


Well said - all of it. We are all SOOO spoiled (myself included) that so few of us realize A) just how good we have it with cheap energy like gas and diesel, or B) how *outrageously* expensive "green" energy is, at least until we start to do some small project like this summer kitchen - only to find out it's going to require a 2nd mortgage (if we even have any equity in our house, but I digress :ashamed. 

I too have found out the hard way that going green or just wanting to have a backup plan for energy is *VERY 'PENSIVE*.

My suggestion to most people is to find or adapt a generator to run on a green fuel, like wood gas or methane - but even that is no bargain, and to realize that a good part of the cost going green (solar/wind) are the batteries, inverters, charge controllers and, and, and.

I tried to help a friend who is "concerned" about the economy etc - and wanted to at least have his freezer running off solar...JUST his freezer mind you. Total system cost, with enough batteries and such to run for 3 days with no real sun; $3720 - for just his freezer! As you said, you can buy a 5kW Genny and a WHOLE lotta fuel for $3720. Even better if using a Methane or Wood Gas as fuel


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

Reality:
I have a wind gen I built myself....if you can weld, carve wood and scrounge metal you can save a lot...anyway after 16 golfcart batteries an Outback inverter the wind gen system is around 4500 bucks.
I just installed solar with 25 year panels and 25 yr enphase inverters.....the system was around 8500.
So I'm up to 13,000 bucks on this adventure... it will curb my electric bill in the area of 60%... I average about 20-25KWH of production daily...I'm really not that green, economics is what drives me... this is part of my retirement strategy....
Now if I take the money I have saved on my electric bill and blow it on unless things, well there would be no need for me to involve myself in making my own power.....but if I save or invest the money which would have otherwise went in to paying an electric bill, well it becomes more worth while.


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