# Another case of Animal control going too far?



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

It seems like there is a huge animal "rescue" nearly every week. This week the headlines say "Dozens of emaciated horses rescued from Washington farm". So I watched the video, expecting to see bunches of very thin horses. Granted, the barns were a mess...debris scattered around and a lot of mud in one part of the video (who knows.....maybe a water pipe broke), but the horses look like they are in good to excellent body condition. They claim some are skittish because of being locked in a stall for so long. Or maybe they were just skittish to begin with, from lack of handling. They claim the horses were standing in foot-deep mud....but none of the horses they showed had filthy mud-stained coats as you would expect if a horse lived in a mud-filled stall. The owners might have been involved with other things (they discovered these horses when they were there on drug related charges), and this might be a case of neglect....and certainly not how I'd treat an animal. But cruelty? I don't see it. 

'Like a puppy mill': Dozens of emaciated horses rescued from Washington farm - U.S. News


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## TenBusyBees (Jun 15, 2011)

I really don't understand stories like these.... especially when there is blatant abuse and nothing is done. Last summer the people that lived in the house closest to us skipped town. I'm not sure if they rented or if it was a foreclosure. Anyway they left their three dogs who were already mangy looking and extrodinarily thin in a locked fenced yard... no food, no water. We're in the county so there's no animal control. I called the sheriff's dept a few weeks later to report the abandoned animals. I was told that unless the dogs were on a tie-out they are only considered strays and there's really nothing they could do but do what we have to do to protect our property. Poor dogs... this was the heat of summer too and no trees either. Not sure what happened to the other two but we eventually shot one when it was trying to get in the henhouse. It really was a mercy killing... I don't think I ever saw a sicklier looking animal.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah, I don't get it either. If anything, these folks probably should have gotten a warning....a list of things to fix. But those horses were not being starved.....they looked very healthy to me. Seizing them all was over the top. The county probably saw the potential adoption fees that such nice looking horses could generate. So now they will charge them a daily boarding fee while they are "rehabilitating" them. If the owners can't pay it, they lose the animals even if no charges ever get filed.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

In that case, the animals most likely had weight on, because they ate their own manure.
And from some of the video... ate the walls too.
So yes, those animals needed to be taken away from there. 

All the rescue places are so over loaded with animals, they aren't going to make any money on these horses.

Stjarna came from a farm, where the horse's weren't fed,rarely any water, and when they did have water, you could smell the stench of it, from 200' away.... they were full of worms, more ringworm,lice and mange I have ever seen. She was a body score of 1 under her unhealthy thick coat.
Top that off, she had foundered and all her frogs had rotted away.....as she was standing in thick mud up to her hocks for years.

At first glance, some of the other horse's looked like their weight was ok.... but after sitting there for awhile, I learned why.
The other horse's were eating manure.
Some of the pastures had the horse's standing in mud/manure/urine, up to their bellies.
I kid you not, some of them had a good solid 6 to 8" worth of mud balls all over their bodies.

Took a group of us, over two years to get those horse's away from those people.
Before that, we tried to get them to listen, in a low key way, so the owners won't feel bad. We helped them, brought wormer and food over. 
They knew what they were doing and didn't care and didn't learn. 

It cost me $6,500 to get Stjarna healthy again and a lot of very long hours for 2 years and I know what I am doing.
And because of the damage the over loads of worms did to her body, she will always be high maintenance.
But she is happy and healthy now and has turned into a wonderful riding horse.
If I tried to sell her, would I get out of her, what I put into her.... not even close.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> In that case, the animals most likely had weight on, because they ate their own manure.


Wha? I've seen horses eating their own manure (and getting fed hay twice a day, just not enough). It didn't keep weight on them.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

southerngurl said:


> Wha? I've seen horses eating their own manure (and getting fed hay twice a day, just not enough). It didn't keep weight on them.


Did they snarf down the whole pile of manure?

Didn't say they had good weight, just a little better than the others because they were eating manure.

If a horse eats manure, in a herd that gets fed hay, either they are foals or an Adult in need of some mineral and Vitamins.
I have never seen any healthy horse, eat a whole pile of manure in one go.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

over zealous..is all i can say


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

many perfectly healthy horses eat their stalls out of boredom and not hunger. And I doubt eating manure could keep those horses in fit condition. If that was the case, there would be no starving horses....they could just recycle their own waste over and over. There just aren't enough nutrients in it for that. This just looks like yet another case of overzealous seizure.


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## Soupmaker (Apr 28, 2012)

The only thing worse then the event happening is people condoning it. Pathetic.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

What are night eyes? 

Those horses sure look well fed. Would they appear to be in such good condition if they had been standing in a foot of poop? I didn't see mud on the horses and they sure look like the owners have kept up on worming. I'm glad the horses aren't in that situation anymore but wouldn't this be a situation where animal control works with them to improve their living conditions? AC mentioned hooves but from what I saw their feet didn't look like their care had reached a point that could be considered abusive. 

Soup, I don't think anybody is condoning this behavior. I cannot imagine letting your horses get into this condition. I am very glad these horses are out of this situation. I just wonder why animal control didn't give the people a week to fix this situation and then watch them closely for months to a year. I guess it also bothers me that in so many places there is no animal control (I don't get that) and why they let horses die or get to death's doorway before they do anything.

From the little bit of info put out by the video (and you'd think animal control would point out the very worst horses/housing conditions to the news station) it seems like this should be a teaching experience.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

If this is a first time offense then I wonder why they don't give the owner a warning and make weekly checks on the care of the horses. It would take less time and money than taking the horses. They obviously have been fed, and they didn't look like they were in foot deep mud. The isle in the barn looks like somebody left the water on. It looks like lime in that area, not manure. I agree the horses need better care, and should be given outside time. I think the time and money spent on this rescue could better serve other horses that really are emaciated and need vet care.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I just don't see abuse. They don't have the best facilities but as someone else mentioned they could have had pipe bust or something. They do need to pay more attention to the facilities but maybe the grounds care person was ill for a week or two and those things weren't done but these horses have definately had food and water. Looks like to me the basics were taken care of including wormings, etc or these horses wouldn't look as good as they do.


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## Soupmaker (Apr 28, 2012)

Joshie said:


> Soup, I don't think anybody is condoning this behavior




Bergere is condoning the removal. Which I find pathetic.

I in no way, shape, or form condone abusing animals. That said they are ANIMALS, not humans. The are animals and live in a barn. The barn, and conditions, doesn't have to look like it belongs onthe cover of country magazine.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

The barn was so disgusting. Yeah, saying it doesn't look like it belongs on the cover of a magazine is an understatement. That barn looked like scoury manure had been sprayed all over everything. Gross.

They said the feds responded to that farm because of something totally unrelated, so it sounds to me like they figured since the conditions weren't that great they may has well take the horses. You can't tell everything that was going on by a few horses on a video. 

There was a huge raid here in MD last year where dozens of starved Arabs were taken away. I knew the farm and had driven past it before and had noticed the skinny horses. Animal control had been monitoring them for months, if not a year or more. Then I heard someone sticking up for the owner saying, "Well, the horses they took were old...they just were skinny." Um, no. I hate when people make excuses for people who clearly are not caring for the animals.

Look at :49 and again at :56 on the video. Disgusting. Just because they're animals doesn't mean they need to live in conditions like that. Animals still need fresh air, clean water, and decent surroundings.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree the barn photos look bad but I have a hard time believing that urine would cause that...it looks like a water leak or that someone left the hose on or something.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Last winter the area by my pasture gate was a disgusting muddy mess, and I think the mud may have been 6+" deep as I nearly lost my boots in it on several occasions, due to the mild weather and the ground not freezing. One of my mares ended up with a nasty scratches problem on all four legs because of it- should my mares have been seized? Both were in excellent weight, and all Vet and hoof care was up to date. There are stretches during nor'easters and other stormy weather that mine are stalled for 2-3 days. Are they abused?

Seizing those horses was a massive abuse of power, in my humble opinion.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

usually AR folks do take the worst for pictures then angle them to make it appear even worse, I want to see the emmaciated horses


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## Soupmaker (Apr 28, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> The barn was so disgusting. Yeah, saying it doesn't look like it belongs on the cover of a magazine is an understatement. That barn looked like scoury manure had been sprayed all over everything. Gross.
> 
> They said the feds responded to that farm because of something totally unrelated, so it sounds to me like they figured since the conditions weren't that great they may has well take the horses. You can't tell everything that was going on by a few horses on a video.
> 
> ...


So animal control let them starve for months even a year and then took them. Great! 

What does the county auditor have to with horse welfare anyway? Maybe some one should get her a tape measure and teach her how to read it too. Cuz there sure the heck wasn't a foot of anything anywhere.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

I find it interesting that even the anchorman mentioned the horses didnt look abused.

Its also no way that is urine on the floor, thats from flooding of some sort. If it was urine they would be wearing masks because the ammonia would be too bad to stand for them to be in there. The horses would have crusty eyes too.
Being in the dark isnt abuse, horses can see in the dark. The comment about the sunlight is just for dramatics. I know alot of high end stables only let the horses out for an hour if at all. I doubt they are skittish due to being stalled. Heck thats how you tame them down. Probably "skittish" due to being a stallion, or a young arabian! Maybe Im just jaded due to so many cat and dog people who get into livestock, think the same rules apply to behavior and care.
I think they were removed because the owner is a druggie and they just want to stick it to him. If he wasnt an offender, they may have allowed clean up first, who knows. At any rate they are going to play it up for donations.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

usually when it's an abuse case, the media shows the worst of the worst. So I doubt there were horses in worse shape that were not shown. I did not see a single horse that was in bad shape. Most looked really, really healthy.

There was a fairly recent case of a woman who had her rabbits seized. These were several generations of bloodlines she had carefully built over the years. When her animals were taken, they charged her I think $5 per day board for each one of the 120 or so animals they took. They would hold the animals until her court case. Since there was no way she could pay that, she had no choice but to sign them over to AC. They actually spayed and neutered them all, and adopted them out. 

If AC is already so overburdened with animals, I can't understand why they just didn't require them to fix things that they found unacceptable and let the horses stay where they were.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Soupmaker said:


> So animal control let them starve for months even a year and then took them. Great!


Contrary to popular belief, it's harder to confiscate animals than one might think. At least in our area, it is. They had to build up enough of a case to be able to take the horses...so I guess they had to wait until it was obvious the horses were being neglected.

Around here, as long as a dog has water and "shelter", AC can't do anything. That shelter might be a piece of plywood leaning against a tree, or a wooden dog house in the middle of a chain link kennel with NO shade, but it still constitutes shelter. It has to be pretty ----ed bad for AC to confiscate animals around here...so I don't jump in on the "hate AC" bandwagon.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

It has to be pretty bad here too. There was a case of starved Arabians a few years back and they were BAD. But they will only take them right away if they get a judges order and that only happens if they feel like death will result if they leave the animals.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Oh my, did I type a bad word in my last post? I dont' remember doing that!


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> You can't tell everything that was going on by a few horses on a video.
> 
> Just because they're animals doesn't mean they need to live in conditions like that. Animals still need fresh air, clean water, and decent surroundings.


This. ^^^^^

While I agree that none of the horses, at least the ones they showed, looked underfed, there is more to caring for animals than tossing them some feed twice a day.

I'm not the best housekeeper myself, but that barn was nasty and I'll bet there are some issues that weren't apparent on the video - especially with the feet.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree with you except that parasites (worms) are usually very prevelant in animals that are not well cared for. If you look at what hooves you can see in the video, they look trimmed up. I have unfortunately seen abused horses that have had no care and they don't look like that. 

I actually thought they were beautiful horses especially the big black stallion, which would actually account for his behavior and not the fact that he wasn't messed with. 

I also agree with someone that usually they show the worst and if that is the worst, well I dunno. I still believe there was a water leak of some kind.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Not to hihack, but that big black fellow has my name written all over him!! These were GORGEOUS animals. I am curious as to the owner's intentions with the horses; as in breeding? Liked pretty horses? Showed?


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I think they saw Arabians and thought $$. Some people do think Arabians are expensive. This seizure will generate news. Since they are healthy, if the owner can't get them back, they will be easy to adopt out with little money put into their care.

It is very hard to prove a seizure is unlawful. Even then, the owner will still be charged a ridiculous amount to get them back. Unless he can come up with that, he will still lose his horses even if no abuse was found.

As for them being skiddish, Arabians don't like change and often are untrusting of strangers. So you have a bunch of strangers come in and take them somewhere strange. Yeah, they're going to act scared and skiddish.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Dani, I agree with everything you said. This seizure will generate news, although I think most people with half a brain will be left wondering where the emaciated horses are. Crappy barn and not wonderful living conditions might not be ideal, but it's also not illegal. So just because we think we'd treat our animals better than that, that does not give anyone the right to seize them. But the sad fact is....even if AC charges them a measly $10 per day per horse for board while they are in their care, that will amount to over $3000 in just 10 days. That's gonna add up FAST. There will be no way the owner can get his horses back without coming up with a huge amount of money. That's a real shame.


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

The fact that there were warrants being served, and the DEA was involved, there may be things going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of.

Maybe the owner was taken to jail and the authorities were concerned that there would be no one to take care of the horses and decided to use the barn conditions as justification for taking them.


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## Soupmaker (Apr 28, 2012)

I think the county auditor is just trying to justify her fancy facility or an expansion of it.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Zilli said:


> The fact that there were warrants being served, and the DEA was involved, there may be things going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of.
> 
> Maybe the owner was taken to jail and the authorities were concerned that there would be no one to take care of the horses and decided to use the barn conditions as justification for taking them.


Maybe and that was my thought in the beginning but they could of just said that. 

&#712;&#275;-&#716;kw&#299;n, &#712;ek-&#716;w&#299;n\ Proper pronunciation of the word. Made me think the auditor knew nothing about the horses. 

Auditor....just makes me think money has something to do with this. DEA agents makes me think drugs = seized property but immediate before court. just a thought.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Where's the foot deep urine and feces in this picture (a still pulled from the AR video) and the feet aren't bad either. The horse's legs are clean. The stall is not clean but it's not as muddy as the aisleway.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Seriously, Wow.
I don't want to know, how many of you keep your horse's, if you think this is ok.

My place isn't perfect either, it is simple but it is clean and all my animals well cared for.
We bring animals to our place, they deserve clean food, water and to be treated fairly.

None of us have been there in person. So most of it is speculation of what it "really" was like there. But the DEA was there, you bet something was really wrong.

Having done rescues for going on 20 years...
In WA... it is nearly impossible to get anyone to pay attention to negligence. 
In WA State, that was here Stjarna and her herd came from.

Took a number of us years, not getting help from anyone to get those animal out of the conditions they were in. And we tried to get the owners to do the right thing.
The folks that took these horse's in, all are backed by what their Vets said from all over the NW, just how bad their conditions where.

Are the ones from the News this bad.... I have no idea... as I am not there in person.

Night eyes....
Say a person, is forced to stay in a low light or Dark room, for months. Your eyes adjust to this by having the pupils stay full open. But if someone brought you out into normal sunlight, you would shut your eyes in pain. 
Sometimes, your body can adjust in a few weeks.... some times there is damage and your eyes never properly work again.

Just so you know, I have boarded horse's in the past, and worked at many training barns. Properly cared for horse's, don't chew wood.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

No one said it's OK, but it's not a situation where horses were starving to death or even thin. The barn is a mess, the stalls _could_ be dangerous but those horses were not in imminent danger of death like the video indicates. The powers that be saw a situation that could be capitalized on and seized the horses simply because they could.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

With the cost of feed and hay, and the over abundance of unwanted horses as it is, I find it hard to believe AC wanted to capitalize on wild/high strung, adult Arabs.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MDKatie said:


> With the cost of feed and hay, and the over abundance of unwanted horses as it is, I find it hard to believe AC wanted to capitalize on wild/high strung, adult Arabs.


The only horse I saw that was the least bit "wild/high strung" was the horse on the lead- the one where they took the picture from the low flying helicopter. My been there, done that OTTTB mare would have an issue with a helicopter hanging over her head. 

The horses I saw in the video were quite nice and will be "adopted" ie. sold for decent prices, not to mention the less informed who will think these are emaciated, horribly neglected horses who will roll out the donations. Plus there's a the "do gooder" effect for the organization...


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## Soupmaker (Apr 28, 2012)

bergere said:


> Just so you know, I have boarded horse's in the past, and worked at many training barns. Properly cared for horse's, don't chew wood.


So I guess the ones my wife used to keep before she wised up were not properly cared for.


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## Soupmaker (Apr 28, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> With the cost of feed and hay, and the over abundance of unwanted horses as it is, I find it hard to believe AC wanted to capitalize on wild/high strung, adult Arabs.


The more money they lose on them the better. Justifies a bigger budget for next year.


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## nostawmama (Dec 29, 2011)

RCW 16.52.100: Confinement without food and water


from above link: "If an investigating officer finds it extremely difficult to supply confined animals with food and water, the officer may remove the animals to protective custody for that purpose."

The article in the OP states that the owner were arrested prior to the animals being seized, if they had no one to care for the horses while the were detained then I could see the AC taking them instead of leaving them. Seems fishy to me claim starvation as the reason for seizure, the poor conditions that they were in should have been a citation issue not a seizure issue.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

bergere said:


> Just so you know, I have boarded horse's in the past, and worked at many training barns. Properly cared for horse's, don't chew wood.


I saw no evidence of wood chewing on the video, if you're referencing the giant hole in the plywood of the stall that's more likely a hole from a kick unless the horse has teeth like beaver. There's a cribber on the video but that's an entirely different issue.



Soupmaker said:


> So I guess the ones my wife used to keep before she wised up were not properly cared for.


Yup, _bored_ horses chew wood but it's not an indication of neglect nor the level of care.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I definitely have some issues with animal control people and seizures of so called abused and neglected animals. In some cases it's justified and necessary and I know personally of at least three cases where it was not and the owner lost valuable animals anyway.

The barn in the video I will agree looks to be a disaster but it also looks like it may have been flooded at some point and the owners haven't been able to get caught up with things. Obviously not all of the horses were shown but I did not see anything that I would view as neglect in any of those animals ... no caked mud, no ribs, no hipbones and no horrible feet and if they were not being fed/wormed adequately over a significant period of time, they would not be slicked off and in good condition as those shown were, which isn't to say there aren't horses that aren't in good condition, but those that were shown I would not consider underweight or neglected. Less than optimum conditions but no indication how long that specific situation had been ongoing.

Based solely on the condition of the horses actually shown, it's hard to see where the justification for seizure was. However, I'm sure everything wasn't being said and there may well have been other horses that were, in fact, emaciated and neglected, no way to tell from that one news clip.

As for the wood chewing being an indication of inadequate nutrition or lack of feed, that's not been my experience. I've had horses almost all my life and I've had some that would chew wood and some that would not and all of them were in the same herd and receiving the same care. Boredom and in some cases, habit, more than anything else, I think.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Arabs are part beaver! We used to have horses chewing wood when the kids went back to school every fall. They had plenty of feed, in a good pasture, and were properly cared for. The horses were bored. They had just spent 3 months with the kids riding and playing with them all day and everyday and it took a few weeks for them to adjust. 
The first year it happened we had the vet do a lot blood work, thinking there must a reason for the chewing. There wasn't.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

No, this would not be acceptable to me for my horses for sure. As a hoof care provider I'm very picky about feet and I don't want them standing in any mud. I like things dry as possible. 

I just see a big area between "ok" and "justification for seizure". I saw no foot deep mud and I felt in their description of the situation they were grasping a bit watching those rather healthy looking horses in the video. I've seen neglect that needed to be dealt with swiftly and felt very sorry for animals when the law wasn't going to help them. But I don't like animals- or kids, being taken away from owners/parents without darn good cause. It's scary sometimes.

I've seen my horse Doc chew on things, including wooden fencing, while in acres of pasture with quality minerals and company. He just likes to bite things sometimes. He's a chunky boy too.

I just didn't see anything close to emaciation. Yet you have people in the comments section ready to send them to jail for many years. Once again, scary.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> Contrary to popular belief, it's harder to confiscate animals than one might think. At least in our area, it is. They had to build up enough of a case to be able to take the horses...so I guess they had to wait until it was obvious the horses were being neglected.


Since they found the horses when they came to the farm for different reasons, this isn't a case where they waited for the situation to get bad enough to remove the horses. 

There are places where it's nearly impossible to remove abused animals and places where animals are removed because their owners blinked wrong. It's similar to what happens with child welfare services. 



Zilli said:


> While I agree that none of the horses, at least the ones they showed, looked underfed, there is more to caring for animals than tossing them some feed twice a day.
> 
> I'm not the best housekeeper myself, but that barn was nasty and I'll bet there are some issues that weren't apparent on the video - especially with the feet.


It seems funny that the TV anchor mentioned that none of the horses looked skinny to him. TV people look for the animals in the worst conditions. The AC lady mentioned foot deep poop piles. While there was a lot of water, it wasn't a foot deep. The messy water was through the aisles, not in the stalls. That indicates, to me, that there is a problem with drainage or flooding. I didn't see bad feet. If the horses had been kept in muck I don't think their feet would look so good.

I agree that there's more to good horse keeping but it's not illegal nor should it be, to do nothing more than the basics. We have gone through periods where we didn't do much more than throw hay over the fence in winter and ignore them during the summer (grassy pasture with a creek running through it). Our horses are not abused. My health was really bad and that's all we could manage. Our Joshua is very people oriented and loved and he knows it. Almost all the horses I saw were well behaved so they have to be regularly handled. Since their feet look good you know the owners are spending a pretty penny on their feet. That also indicates they are regularly handled. I just have to believe that there are people on this board who let their horses roam around on large acreage and go decently long periods where they don't lay their eyes on their horses. 



Zilli said:


> Maybe the owner was taken to jail and the authorities were concerned that there would be no one to take care of the horses and decided to use the barn conditions as justification for taking them.


Fear for what might happen in the future is not, in my opinion, a justifiable reason for removing the animals. That sounds like arresting someone for shoplifting because they stare at something too long and might steal it.



Irish Pixie said:


> Last winter the area by my pasture gate was a disgusting muddy mess, and I think the mud may have been 6+" deep as I nearly lost my boots in it on several occasions, due to the mild weather and the ground not freezing. One of my mares ended up with a nasty scratches problem on all four legs because of it- should my mares have been seized? Both were in excellent weight, and all Vet and hoof care was up to date. There are stretches during nor'easters and other stormy weather that mine are stalled for 2-3 days. Are they abused?


Spring is horrible here. There's nothing we can do to keep them out of muck so their feet are always wet. I guess I could stall them gut that would be horrible mess. Joshua hates being stalled because he was kept stalled for the first three years of his life. I'm with you. I don't think our boys' wet feet are a good excuse to take them.



Soupmaker said:


> The only thing worse then the event happening is people condoning it. Pathetic.


I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about the behavior of AC.




bergere said:


> Seriously, Wow.
> I don't want to know, how many of you keep your horse's, if you think this is ok.
> 
> None of us have been there in person. So most of it is speculation of what it "really" was like there. But the DEA was there, you bet something was really wrong.
> Just so you know, I have boarded horse's in the past, and worked at many training barns. Properly cared for horse's, don't chew wood.


I don't think anybody is saying that these horses were well cared for but it seems to me that working with the owners and providing education would have been the first step. 

None of us have been there so we can only judge by what was pictured. Most AC personnel will point out the worst and cameramen will document the worst possible conditions because that makes a better news story.

I have a horse that chews on wood when bored. He's not a cribber and is a bit too well fed. 




nostawmama said:


> RCW 16.52.100: Confinement without food and water
> 
> from above link: "If an investigating officer finds it extremely difficult to supply confined animals with food and water, the officer may remove the animals to protective custody for that purpose."
> 
> The article in the OP states that the owner were arrested prior to the animals being seized, if they had no one to care for the horses while the were detained then I could see the AC taking them instead of leaving them. Seems fishy to me claim starvation as the reason for seizure, the poor conditions that they were in should have been a citation issue not a seizure issue.


I'd think the owner would have friends, relatives, or even employees who could feed and water while the owners are in jail. Most people are let out on bail. Those horses are obviously getting plenty of decent food and water.

Nobody here is condoning these conditions but I don't understand the rationale behind the seizure of these horses. Education and close monitoring would seem to be the first step in my way of thinking.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I once went to a thoroughbred farm looking to buy a horse. There were 'good" horses that had large airy stalls that were clean and the "not so good horses" who were in filthy, dark stalls in outer barns. It depended on their injury status and breeding.
The owner wanted to show me one horse. When he opened the stall door, he could not get the horse out because the manure was piled so high in front of the door, the horse could not squeeze under the top of the door.
Fifty years ago and I still remember that. It may not be starvation, but it was horrible. You knew that poor soul had not seen the outside of that stall in months.


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

I don't get it. The barn aisle obviously isn't wet from urine. The horses are in good shape, the feet are well trimmed, and they aren't covered in mud an manure like they would be if they were laying down in a foot of manure for the last week even. The whole night eyes thing? Sure looked like there were lights in the barn. I know lots of show horses that don't get turned out, but they don't feed them in the dark. And some horses like to chew. I have seen horses chew holes in the walls like that. I had a horse that would do it. Just stand there all day and work her way through. that might have been why they sold her. 
I know a lady right now who has horses standing in run in sheds that she has never cleaned. They now need to duck to get in and out. She has a farrier out once a year or so, no shots, no wormer, and she has had several horses starve to death if they had special needs. Our animal control people have been called dozens of times but they won't do anything because they have food and water on the property. 
I am absolutely disgusted that no one will do a thing for those poor grade horses yet they will seize a bunch of purebred arabians in such good shape. It makes me nervous too...if my barn floods will they take my horse? Maybe they will seize him because he has to be on a dry lot? Oh wait, he's not worth anything. Didn't they just make millions selling someone's herd that stole the money? Is it possible they think they can do that with all seized horses?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

The picture of the barn aisle is terrible but that was about it. The horses look to be in pretty good shape to me. The woman interviewed obviously knows nothing about horses, herself. She couldn't even pronounce "equine" properly.
"They have their night eyes on"? She's reaching.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

And my horses are well cared for..very much so and I STILL don't think this is a case for seizure..thank you very much :>(


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

I have an urge to go up to that part of Washington to find the lady who speaks during most of the video (short brown hair) and slap sense into her. She is so obviously a foaming at the mouth, radical AR person that I want to hurl. One of her comments was something like "and there were obvious signs of breeding!" YEAH? So what? Last time I checked that wasn't a crime, well not yet anyway. Give HSUS and PETA enough time and it will be.

She just kept spouting more and more complete bovine excrement with each new sentence, it just boggles the mind. She says something about it was clear that some of these animals hadn't been handled in a long time, well again (not that I think this is good but.....) this isn't a CRIME. If I want to own a critter and not train it to be ridden or do anything beyond admire it standing in the field, provided it remains healthy, I can do just that.

One of the news readers said that the animals will remain in the care of the shelter, at their expense, yeah for now. If a judge decides that the person should get their horses back they will present that person with a huge bill for the care of all of those horses. God only knows what that will come to. Every time I see a horse seizure on TV they always give some grossly inflated figure as to what it costs a normal person to keep a normal horse each month. Maybe if I kept my horse in a boarding situation with the max in care it might cost what they are suggesting, but if it is standing on my own property eating available pasture most of the year it is a tiny fraction of the dollar amount they give.

I hate seeing things like this. Every time it happens it benefits the radical AR groups and hurts us regular people who love our horses and keep them well.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Oregon Julie said:


> If a judge decides that the person should get their horses back they will present that person with a huge bill for the care of all of those horses. God only knows what that will come to.


I know a person that lost her horses this way. It was eventually determined that there was no neglect or abuse (after several months of hearings) but she had no resources to pay the huge board bill that had been incurred for their 'care' while they were confiscated.


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

NOT mentioned above about the MD seizure is that most of the horses were returned to the woman after the vet who invented the body scoring system submitted an affidavit on her behalf stating that the animals in the photographs were not malnourished in a manner that could be considered abuse. The vet's affidavit also expressed significant concerns over the way the horses were handled during the seizure.

Here is the Arabian Breeder's forum thread on this topic: New Seizure in Washington State-developing story - Arabian Rescue and Rehoming - Arabian Horse Breeders Network

Apparently the DEA stuff was


> 'A disgruntled former employee falsely accused him of writing illegal prescriptions.'


No one is saying the barns were clean or in good shape. But, I've seen some so called rescue farms that look like complete mud holes and they'd be on the front line trying to get a hold of these horses so they could flip them for 'adoption fees'.

What exactly is the law in WA? IF WA has a law about the depth of manure or something, then maybe this was a justified seizure, but most states don't have such laws for livestock. And I'm sure everyone knows how factory farmed animals are managed, so I'm sure all the people wanting these horses seized would NEVER buy meat in grocery stores, right? Finally, I didn't see the video of horses standing in knee deep mud? Which one was it again?

Even at $100/head, the government has just taken $3900 worth of personal property from this owner. (And, I'm thinking that those horses are worth more than $100 each). And I have yet to see a picture of a thin animal that would even come close to being called emaciated.

I am personally for animal welfare, but you know how I handle it? When I see a family in trouble I take them wormer and offer them at least one round bale for every three horses, then we talk about why the horses are so thin. I've managed to get plenty of owner upgrades to horses in my time and all without traumatizing the children involved or calling in a news agency. But, then again... I'm just looking out for the animal. Not trying to fleece a couple grand off the public.

It seems like the only time anyone has the time or energy to confiscate horses any more are when they're papered and can make a big (donation drive style) news story. I can't count how many times I've seen relatively decent horses seized and two weeks later they look like crap from the stress, changed diet and just plain bad planning in these seizures. I've seen horses taken from straight (poor) hay diets and thrown out into the middle of lush pastures. Who is going to pay for treating that horse for founder when one of these rescues cause it?


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

SFM in KY said:


> I know a person that lost her horses this way. It was eventually determined that there was no neglect or abuse (after several months of hearings) but she had no resources to pay the huge board bill that had been incurred for their 'care' while they were confiscated.


And, I bet they were online and on TV fund raising over the 'poor neglected' horse that they stole the whole time. 

In the MD case, at one point they were trying to raise nearly (over?) a million dollars to take care of the horses, claiming all these expenses that would be incurred to bring a BCS3 or BCS4 horse up to a BCS5. They wanted all board costs, vet costs, TRAINING COSTS... you name it, but they estimated a million dollars in the first six months alone.

(The MD Case -- The million dollars is mentioned in the comments section: Maryland Polish Arabian Breeder Charged With 133 Counts of Neglect Will Have 63 Horses Returned )


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

sorry duplicate


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

That area of WA is dry and has been for at least 2 months. Either someone left a hose on or a waterline broke.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

The Cavalry Group


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

downsized said:


> NOT mentioned above about the MD seizure is that most of the horses were returned to the woman after the vet who invented the body scoring system submitted an affidavit on her behalf stating that the animals in the photographs were not malnourished in a manner that could be considered abuse. The vet's affidavit also expressed significant concerns over the way the horses were handled during the seizure.


Have you seen pictures of the horses taken from the MD farm? Not every one of them was starved, but a lot of them were emaciated and there's absolutely no excuse for it. Yes, she received at least 60 horses back, but I'm not sure why. Even if the vet exaggerated, there were definitely horses being starved there.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

where would I see pictures of the starving horses so that I could make an informed decision?


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Maybe every person following this thread could call, or email to the appropriate person complaining about the inappropriate actions of the law, since those horses were clearly well cared for in spite of the deplorable conditions of the barn. 

I just don't know myself who the right people to contact would be.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Donations sought in rescue of 39 horses in Pierce County | Local News | The Seattle Times

I have a friend working with these horses and that video, doesn't show even half of what is going on.
One of the reasons is.. the DEA has put a lid on things.

I just can't believe how people here, are being, when they don't know/haven't seen,,, in person, what is going on.

I'm done....


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I'll tell you why, We are in a war to keep our rights to own animals.
That is why we don't believe everything that is pumped out to us. 

too many times we have seen the media hype things up and we all know that some  recuses will say anything from how the animals was cared for (even though they were not there) to what breed/breeds mix an animal is, to move them out to get donations and/or adoptions/sell.

you otta be happy that we don't just nod and say "yes oh yes" to everything. what if this happened to you?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

bergere said:


> Donations sought in rescue of 39 horses in Pierce County | Local News | The Seattle Times
> 
> I have a friend working with these horses and that video, doesn't show even half of what is going on.


I wondered if that might not be the case. 

There are abuses. There are cases where rescue does need to step in. Unless you are actually there and see the animals you really can not make any kind of judgement.

My biggest concern with the HSUS people are that they so often seem to have people that are clueless about how livestock should actually be cared for, especially in the more urbanized areas.

We had an occasional problem ... or reported problem ... in MT particularly after so many people started relocating/retiring in that area. But it was still a small western town and the county sheriff's department was in charge of investigating any allegations of abuse or neglect and the ones that were followed up on were primarily the ones reported by the vets or farriers. The ones by the "city people" ... a horse tied to the corral in the sun with no shade or snowing and the horses aren't in the barn ... were ignored. The sheriff and most of the deputies were all ranch raised themselves and very well aware of the difference between normal ranch conditions and neglect.

I think the reason many people on this board are so quick to question a seizure is that we are 'livestock people' and most of us have known more than one instance where the HSUS and welfare people have over-reacted and the livestock owners are the ones than suffer.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Since none of us has actually seen what the farm and horses look like we have to go by what the media has presented. I've seen nothing that indicates these horses were starved or neglected, the barn is in rough shape and the horses may have been unhandled but that's not illegal, is it? 

The owner needs to clean up the barn and fix the stalls, and should have been served notice to do so, and there should have been periodic checks to make sure the work was done. If the work wasn't done within a reasonable amount of time the owner should be fined and/or horses removed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

bergere said:


> Donations sought in rescue of 39 horses in Pierce County | Local News | The Seattle Times
> 
> I have a friend working with these horses and that video, doesn't show even half of what is going on.
> One of the reasons is.. the DEA has put a lid on things.
> ...


You've personally seen the horses in question?


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I have been searching for pictures or video tapes. If anyone has a link much appreciated. I am not interested in a news right up seeking donations. Or a second hand account of the condition. I want to see pictures. I want to see with my own eyes the deplorable conditions and starving horses.I am also curious to know why the Dr who made the body conditioning score has deemed these horses fit..unless I am mistaken


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

lamoncha lover said:


> I am also curious to know why the Dr who made the body conditioning score has deemed these horses fit..unless I am mistaken


That was in relation to a case in MD a few years back. I've copied where I posted to an article about that case below. The vet was Dr Henike (sp?) who developed the body scoring system and was prepared to testify on behalf of the owner of the horses.



downsized said:


> (The MD Case -- The million dollars is mentioned in the comments section: Maryland Polish Arabian Breeder Charged With 133 Counts of Neglect Will Have 63 Horses Returned )


As others have said, there has yet to be a picture released that show starved animals. And, as for seizing animals over the condition of the barn? IF there is a law about barn conditions, then so be it. But if there is no law about it, then I am against the government being able to take personal property because they don't like what they see. First it will be a muddy barn isle, next it will be that pigs are allowed to wallow in mud during the hottest part of summer, pretty soon, horses will be confiscated for having burrs in their mane. (And I've seen one of these rescue-nazis trying to confiscate horses for being allowed to exist with burrs in their mane!)

There are plenty of actually starving animals out there and until the DA has rounded all of those horses up and prosecuted those owners, they need to quit screaming "emaciated horse!" when they're leading a fully fit animal out of the barn of an owner that someone has a beef with. 

So, if someone claims there are other starved horses from that farm, then I'll believe it when I see the photo and the blood work that confirms it. Till then, I believe this is the government over stepping in a big way.


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

A detailed article about the owners who are in deep stuff over drugs: Seizure of 39 horses in Graham reveals massive DEA drug investigation | The Mountain News &#8211; WA

From the article:


> Anderson has taken personal charge of the rescue operation and seems determined to avoid the disappointments that occurred in the countyâs last large-scale horse rescue â the Darlene Wilson 40-horse episode of 2010. *In [that] occurrence, the [Pierce County Animal Control] tried to partner with a local equine rescue organization that ultimately found itself without sufficient resources to properly care for its initial installment of twenty horses. Ultimately, the rescue group had to euthanize about ten of the horses*, and eventually the PCAC had to intervene and take a handful of horses. Finally, the remaining ten horses were court âordered to be sold.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

SFM in KY said:


> I wondered if that might not be the case.
> 
> There are abuses. There are cases where rescue does need to step in. Unless you are actually there and see the animals you really can not make any kind of judgement.
> 
> ...


The area that we lived in Oregon before moving to Washington became urbanized in the 10 years we lived there. We had a Jersey cow calve on a Sunday and on Monday we had a call at work from a deputy stating that someone had called to complain that we had a "cow lying in the field with an engorged udder". My husband explained that this was our MILK cow who just had a calf and that she was no doubt just laying down, like cows do sometimes. The deputy thankfully was a sensible, ranch raised fellow and apologized for bothering us and hung up. 

Had this been a Tuesday-Friday complaint we would have had the way over zealous so called ACO climbing our locked gate to investigate the horrible animal abuse that was obviously going on. He may well have forced us to get the cow examined by a vet to prove that the amount of "engorgement" was normal. He would have decided she was too thin, because dairy animals are meant to be round and fat over the topline just like beef animals.

All it takes is one nimrod to cause a bunch of trouble. That stupid county auditor woman is just the sort of nimrod to do it too. One of the articles I have read about this indicates that "they" (Ms Nimrod and co.) estimate it will cost 40K to look after these horses. REALLY??? for 40K I could keep a bunch of horses for a really long time in darn good conditions. They are trolling for donations and doing their best to make hay while the sun shines. Paint these people as black as they can and be as sensational as possible. I look at almost all of these seizures with skeptical eyes because of the behavior I have seen and experienced personally.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

Graham-area man to fight for return of his horses, attorney says | Graham - The News Tribune

Check out the part of the article where the vet for this guy, his next door neighbor, says he was dumbfounded when he was told what the county had done.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

According to the story, it says some are likely to be euthanized


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Shygal said:


> According to the story, it says some are likely to be euthanized


There's at least one 35 year old horse in the bunch, perhaps AR feels likely it can be sacrificed for the good of donations. The media and/or AR always puts out the worst of the worst to show how inhumanely animals were treated I haven't seen even a thin horse yet.

I mean no disrespect to honest animal rescuers, I truly don't, they do a heart breaking job with nothing but the animal's welfare in their heart. But I don't see that in this situation, these horses should never have been seized.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

take note that the Dr hasn't been charged with anything. yet.
If it has to do with the DEA, his wife has nothing to do with that and can care for the horses.
it has also been said that wast management has been eyeballing the land for sometime.
I wouldn't want my barn looking like that BUT to take horses that are in good shape, is like taking kids way and adopting to only homes near schools so they can walk because they may get hurt in a car accident when you drive them (AND they can get much needed exercise as well!!)


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

bergere said:


> Donations sought in rescue of 39 horses in Pierce County | Local News | The Seattle Times
> 
> I have a friend working with these horses and that video, doesn't show even half of what is going on.
> One of the reasons is.. the DEA has put a lid on things.
> ...


All that anyone here can go on is what was in the news. The news didn't show anything that would warrant removal of all those horses. If things are as bad as the auditor says, why wasn't it shown on the news broadcast. Pictures of horses in horrible condition would bring in far more viewers than pictures of horses that appear to be in good body condition and have good looking feet. 

Why would the DEA let cameramen show pictures of healthy looking horses and not the bad looking ones? What they've shown doesn't make their case for horse abuse very well. Why does the auditor make the point that the owners are breeding? That's not illegal. In this economy I cannot imagine the owners are making much, if any, money from these horses.

Why would it take 40K to rehab these horses? Heck, if it takes that much they should put them all down. Why would it take 40K to rehab these horses, especially the ones shown?


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Someone's reporting is quite poor, whether the article or the TV news or both. The article states "U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration agents discovered the malnourished animals, many injured and some standing in more than a foot of waste, while serving drug-related warrants". Well are there injuries or aren't there? Where are the malnourished animals? Also, if the animals were standing in more than a foot of waste, I'd expect to see at the very least, an empty stall with a foot of waste in it. 

On the other hand, it may be that this wasn't newsworthy until the most vulnerable horses were already removed. It's not like reporters were there from the start. 

Poor reporting of the facts. So many questions should NOT have been raised. This should have been straight-forward.


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

a Facebook page with pictures of the seized horses: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.471130456251255.110213.455884541109180&type=1


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

Per this article linked earlier ( Donations sought in rescue of 39 horses in Pierce County | Local News | The Seattle Times ) they've had two tons of hay donated... That amounts to about 100 pounds / head of horse. Based on an average 900 pound horse, that is at most 4 days worth of hay (more likely 3 days if there is waste). 

Jiminy Crickette! Who would take on 39 horses with only a couple days worth of hay on hand? Per WA state law, the owner will have to post a bond for 30 days of care, so they will get that money unless charges are not filed against him within 15 days. 

I'm having trouble figuring out what law they're going to use when they AC made a public statement that most of the horses were in good weight and all had food and water. [ statement reported in this article: Seizure of 39 horses in Graham reveals massive DEA drug investigation | The Mountain News &#8211; WA ]

This is another odd statement (from the article linked first in this post )



> *Because the horses have been traumatized*, they are very difficult, and sometimes dangerous, to handle. The county is assembling a team of experts to work with the animals. Offers from individual volunteers to help handle the horses will not be accepted.


It sounds like they're figuring out that mixing stallions next to mares or each other might be a bit more difficult to handle than 'my friend flicka' makes out. I've had to deal with aggressive stallions and they are very dangerous, I hope no one (human or horse) gets hurt in all of this.


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

tailwagging said:


> take note that the Dr hasn't been charged with anything. yet.
> If it has to do with the DEA, his wife has nothing to do with that and can care for the horses.
> it has also been said that wast management has been eyeballing the land for sometime.
> I wouldn't want my barn looking like that BUT to take horses that are in good shape, is like taking kids way and adopting to only homes near schools so they can walk because they may get hurt in a car accident when you drive them (AND they can get much needed exercise as well!!)


I'm still trying to find the laws that could apply. The man isn't charged, so it isn't likely that he's in jail (at least not for more than maybe 48 hours), so they can't claim abandoned horses.

Deep bedding is a known ag practice ( here's a link on this board and no one is threatening to sick AC on the poster: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/457780-deep-bedding-method-question.html )

There is nothing specific that I can find about shelter, light or ventilation in the law, but still... unless his barn is built into a cave, it would be hard to argue ventilation in most of the barns that I've ever been in. And, the AC is actually arguing that the horses never got OUT of the barn for exercise (I'm not sure how you can have no turn out pastures on a 99 acre farm while still not having enough housing for all the animals... do they just stay there out of brain washing?)

None of the horses look to be emaciated (in a medical description sense). Some are thin, but none look to be a body score of 2 or below. I think maybe two of the horses could be scored a 3, maybe a 2.5 if you want to push it?

I'm hoping we can rule out all the WA laws about having sex with animals... and BOY do they spend a lot of legal jargon on making sex with animals illegal? What in the world goes on in that state?

They claim the horses are unhandled, so we can probably rule out over worked animals.

This is a really confusing seizure. I'd like to see an interview with the DA who is going to prosecute this case. Clearly they got a judge to sign off on the warrant, so someone thinks they have a case here.


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## downsized (Aug 28, 2012)

Not to inject humor into this, but here is a Cornell project to study the use of "Dried Manure Solids" to bed dairy cattle (so basically, they're bedded in their own crap) Using Manure Solids for Dairy Barn Bedding - Cornell Waste Management Institute (Think about that the next time you buy a gallon of milk from the store!)

Clearly not exactly what the accused has done, but his defense attorney can certainly argue the foot of manure in the stalls on a legal basis, no matter how disgusting it is.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

downsized, thanks for that link. Those horses look pretty darn good to me. One looked a little thin but that may have been a really old horse too. The coats even show dappling, which you won't find in a sick, starving horse.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Why would one remove horses from a facility with adequate food and water and place them in a situation where they don't?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Joshie said:


> Why would one remove horses from a facility with adequate food and water and place them in a situation where they don't?


Why? Because then they can go on TV and plead for donations which will flood in and far exceed the actual needs of these horses.


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