# lgd killed lamb



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I went to town and when I returned momma ewe was looking for one of her twins. It crossed the fence and got in with my 2yr old ziggy. Ziggy stays with the rams. He is a hyper teenager and hardheaded. He played too hard with the lamb and it died. Boomer my other Ltd takes care of the ewes and lambs. He is very gentle and caring.and is not hyper. I blame myself. I knew ziggy was too playful and is not calm enough to be around lambs. I am making an appointment to get him fixed. I hope this will start to help calm him down. Any suggestions?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Neutering probably won't help, but it won't hurt either. The dog just needs to mature. Sorry for this loss.....I know it's heartbreaking. Even these dogs don't have a prey drive, they DO have a "play drive". Don't give up on him.....he needs time.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Supervised visits in the lambing area where you can correct him if he tries to mess with them.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

sorry bout the mishap
couple options

1. Get rid of the dog (give away, shoot what ever, a guard dog that kills your stock is worse than useless)
2. Train the dog.
I would go for #2 myself, this is not a bad dog. (A bad dog would have killed more than 1
On a 1-10 train scale 10 the hardest I'd say about a 3
(I'd specifically over feed him ham, then let him slake his thirst with lots of warm water. Then I would run him behind the quad till he puked his guts out. Now that he is like a rung out dish rag, I'd put a catch stick on him, stick him in with the lambs. I'd have someone else put lambs all over and around him while I was above on the fence, and anytime he moved his head in a fast or aggressive manner, I'd pin his head to the ground with the catch stick. He will learn fast that if he moves gently towards them, he dont get stuck to the ground)
Now while that may seem a little harsh, it is not when you compare it to losing a lamb everytime he slips up. (that aint a .50 cent chick, and even that is not ok)
Good luck


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Dang rock....that's not only harsh, it's abusive. The dog needs to bond with stock, not become terrified of it.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Dang rock....that's not only harsh, it's abusive. The dog needs to bond with stock, not become terrified of it.


Yep, I agree. Besides that the dog is being punished when he is nowhere near the stock, let alone bothering them.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

wendle said:


> Yep, I agree. Besides that the dog is being punished when he is nowhere near the stock, let alone bothering them.


See the problem is, Rock knows nothing about livestock guardian dogs. He has American bull dogs. And if this is the way he trains them, I would not want a dog from him. Ever.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'm not sure I've ever heard of such a training method Rock. I would try a different LGD and pull the problem dog off that job rehome it to a nonfarm home or put it down.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

You said yourself that you know this dog is too headstrong and high energy to be around lambs, and is only supposed to be with the rams. From your description he did not hunt and kill the lamb for food or aggressively attack it, he is a big dog, and it was a little lamb, and he played too hard and it died (that's what you said). 

I would say you have 2 options here. 

1. Rehome him to someone without small animals (Personally I think putting him down is a little harsh, but I respect others' opinions)

2. Rework your fences so that the lambs can't "cross over the fence line" and get in with him. The dog didn't escape and go after the lamb, the lamb got through the fence to a place where it wasn't supposed to be. That is your problem, IMO. Not the dog's fault.

I have a big dog that would go after a small animal if it got loose, too (I got her before I started farming, and she is part of the family now). That's why I take special care to make sure my fences and cages are secure and nobody can escape. It would be just as easy for something to get hit by a car or eaten by a coyote or fox if it got loose. At least the dog keeps coyotes and foxes away.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Rock said:


> sorry bout the mishap
> couple options
> 
> 1. Get rid of the dog (give away, shoot what ever, a guard dog that kills your stock is worse than useless)
> ...


Sorry but this is just rediculous. I feel bad for your dogs. If this does anything besides turn your dog into an unstable, nervous wreck, it will teach your dog to wait until you leave the property before going after lambs. You do not want your LGD to fear your livestock!!


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## Living Skies (Jan 23, 2012)

Ever had much success with your method Rock? Running a dog hard after it eats let alone after overfeeding the hell out of it and it will end up with a twisted stomach and most likely die. That is probably the worst advise I think I've ever heard.

Oh and I own a 10 year old American Bulldog too by the way, he met his first chickens at 9 and can be trusted 100% with them....I've never had to abuse the crap out of him to make him as well adjusted as he is.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm not going to delete Rock's post although it is controversial to say the least. It is nonetheless his tip, and the OP did ask for tips. If you don't agree, just move along with your own options to help the OP with his problem. I would hate for this to deteriorate into a slamming of one person's post without helping the OP as he requested. 

I do agree with Living Skies about the bloat warning, though. A big dog especially is vulnerable to this danger and it is life threatening; in fact few dogs will pull through it at all.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Post four is not the way to go for many reasons, that is not how you train an actual LGD and bloat is for sure is a large concern. That is all I am going to say about that post. 

Neuter him, fence the bottom of his area so lambs cannot get through. My Nigies babies walk right through cattle panels, the bucks are fine with them but if they weren't I would put poultry fence or something around the bottom to stop them. But make sure it is secure because they make smash it down. Well goats would  
After about a month when his testosterone is out of his system, take him around with you while you do your chores and correct him for any bad behavior. No playing, chasing or hyper interest in the animals. If you have to put him on a long line that is held or attached to you, he tries something yank him and tell him no. 

He is still young and full of testosterone he will get better with training, time and no testicles


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I think we are helping the OP by letting him/her know that Rock's advise is really harsh and more likely to ruin a LGD than 'train' it.

My advise would be to work with the dog in a controlled fashion so any unwanted behavior can be corrected and to fix the fence so no more lambs get in with him unsupervised.

Like you said, he's not bad. Just young.


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## RedRidge (Jan 28, 2013)

OK... has anyone considered... maybe the dog didn't kill the lamb?
I have learned to trust my maremma... MUCH more than I used to.
Frequently, if one dies, an lgd will dispose of it.
With young dogs, they may play, but will not "purposely" kill it.
There is a definite line here, and without actually seeing what happened, no one will know for sure.

There are also attractants on young lambs... umbilical area for instance... that will cause a young dog to lick and possible chew. Again, instinct.

My biggest piece of advice is to pay attention to what your dogs are telling you. They tell you a lot, but many folks simply don't listen or care to understand.
A 2 yr old lgd should be mature enough at this point to be trusted with lambs when supervised. That's where I'd start... entrusting him so you can witness his behavior.
He has no clue he has done anything wrong. Put him with the lambs and if he plays with them, correct him (at a level he respects, but no more and no less).
Then... evaluate... and repeat... several times a day if possible.
When this is done consistently when they are teenagers (8-18 months old) they quickly begin to realize where that line is. And a good lgd really doesn't want to cross that line - they simply need clear, consistant communication to know where that line is.

He's still young, but really should no better by now. I suspect (no offense) he doesn't know because he hasn't been properly told.
Neuter him, communicate with him. Set him up for failure and success which you control so that you can communicate with him. If he is too much and won't stop playing with a verbal, he should be introduced to the lambs with a long line. You have control that way. And the lambs are smart - trusting, but smart. They will learn to trust him - or not. Listen to the sheep too.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks everyone, I placed a smaller fence around the cattle panels. And took Ziggy over to the lamb side and watched him. He ran over to the lamb right away to play and he got a loud Eckkkkkk!!! He turned and looked at me and then the lamb and then walked away.

I will be doing this several times a day, Ziggy is still in puppy/teenager stage. He has never hurt a ewe or ram. He was just excited when the lamb came over and tried to play with it.

I DO NOT and WILL NOT abuse my animals! And I am in shock at one comment posted here.

I have the patients and foot work to make sure Ziggy will not harm another lamb. I am working with him and correcting his behavior, the bottom line is he is still a teenager. He just needs time to mature. So I agree with almost everyone. Ziggy is just slower to mature then Boomer was even though they are brothers.

I'd rather do the work then abuse and mistreat my beloved LGD. He protects my rams and wethers, when something is out there they all run behind Ziggy for protection.

It was an accident, and I am working to correct it, thanks everyone for the tips and advice.

Ziggy did not attack the lamb, when I saw where the lamb was he was trying to get it back up, because the lamb was dead. I believe it had a heart attack due to I know how ziggy runs around in circles and pounces as to play with the little lamb. There was one paw scratch on the hind leg from ziggy pawing at the lamb to get up and I saw him do that one when I saw the lamb laying there.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

BTW, Ziggy is high strung. It has nothing to do with him being trained properly or not. He was with lambs last yr at the age of one. Ziggy can be very playful, the rams have learned to just stand still when he gets on a running happy spree. Also the rams will try to eat Ziggys food, I've witness on many occasions where ziggy will bark and place his mouth in front of their face to tell them to leave his food alone. The rams know he will not hurt them, so they just close their eyes and continue eating ziggy's food with him there barking at their face...LOL 

Ziggy also gets excited when he sees me and trys to trip me with his paws wrapped around my ankles or runs around like crazy because he is excited. I also have his brother, he is with the ewes and lambs, he is a gentle giant. And only barks when needed and does not jump up on me. I have trained them the same and at the same time. Boomer is calm, and Ziggy is hyper, Ziggy is the runt of the litter and he is just slower at maturing. He will get there though, until then he will be in charge of the rams and Boomer the ewes and lambs.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Lot of people dont have unlimited time to fix the dog
or unlimited funds to buy a dog already trained for that stock
while I agree my advise my seem harsh, I think they want to curtail the death of their lambs. 
So put the dog down was also an option givin. 
As I said, not the one I would try without giving the dog a chance to be corrected.
All these people up in arms make me just shake my head and wonder. 
While Bloat is a potential problem. 
Train the dog, is the choice I would make. (Yeah I have done it and it works, just like tapping an article in a chewer's mouth)


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Seems to me that if you don't have time to train a dog, don't get a dog. Abuse is not a good substitute for lack of time. That's a lazy man's way to attempt to train a dog.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Well I guess they are taking the time now, so good for them. Not training a dog is abuse at its worst. You dont like my methods *SO WHAT!* Any dog that chases harasses or attacks livestock or humans in this state can be dispatched without recourse (That is shot on the spot, in case you didn't understand) When ever you do *anything* note worthy with your dogs I'll be the first to give a tip of the hat, until then your sideways snide remarks and weak attemps at digs mean less then nothing.


BarbadosSheep said:


> Seems to me that if you don't have time to train a dog, don't get a dog. Abuse is not a good substitute for lack of time. That's a lazy man's way to attempt to train a dog.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, my Anatolian Shepherd Dogs are now trustworthy full time livestock guardian dogs now. They are doing the job they were bred to do. Safe with my cattle, sheep, chickens and grandchildren. And I did not have to abuse them to get them to this point. That seems pretty noteworthy to me.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Rock there are a few problems with your training method:

You are raising guard dogs we are raising *guardian *dogs, big difference. Your dogs will never be LGD, they are bred for a different purpose. Ours are bred to be mellow with a low prey drive. 

Our dogs are large/giant breeds and far more prone to bloat then your shorter stocky guys. Having a dog bloat and costing us a grand or two to fix or death costs us more then money.

Making an LGD fear livestock is not the way to go, they need to respect them and their space. That is done by humans training and my goats beating them, which is allowed and encouraged by me. 

I also agree if you do not have the time and patience to train an LGD then you should not have one. Taking short cuts using harsh methods will ruin a good LGD. 

Shooting a dog you have spent time, money, training and such on does what? It's a waste, train the dog, adjust it's living situation so no livestock gets hurt and make it work. If it does not then there are other ways to go. 
If one of my house dogs were to kill livestock I would re-home it to a non-farm home. I had to do that years ago since she had a thing for chickens. Great dog, loved people, cats and other dogs. She is doing great in her non-farm home for the past 4 years and well loved, I would have killed a perfectly good dog why?? So killing is not my first choice. I took them in, their lives are in my care and I make it work one way or another. They are carnivores and I put them in that situation and I am the one who needs to take responsibilty for it and fix it.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Ross I should have also mentioned I was taught/learned this from a dog.
He had stole my ham off the counter (not off the table where he could reach and it would have been my fault) where he had to go up onto his back legs to get it. Then he drank all his water, I gave him another bowl and then 1/2 of another. He looked pathic but that wasn't gettin him out of training. So out to the field we went and he kicked every bit of it back up. 
Then we went about our training, I know he was extra attentive because he wanted to be done.


Ross said:


> I'm not sure I've ever heard of such a training method Rock. I would try a different LGD and pull the problem dog off that job rehome it to a nonfarm home or put it down.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I just recently read this saying from a horse trainer, but I think applies well to dogs. 
_"The reason that punishment is really not useful is because it's late. It's badly timed & the horse doesn't understand it. To them it is just being hurt for no reason. Ultimately this is about being self-controlled, it's not about controlling the horses, it's about having the strength of character to be a partner to the horse."_
- Betty Staley on Punishment


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

wendle said:


> I just recently read this saying from a horse trainer, but I think applies well to dogs.
> _"The reason that punishment is really not useful is because it's late. It's badly timed & the horse doesn't understand it. To them it is just being hurt for no reason. Ultimately this is about being self-controlled, it's not about controlling the horses, it's about having the strength of character to be a partner to the horse."_
> - Betty Staley on Punishment


Punishment is revenge not a correction.


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

Hi Fowler,

I have heard that one can reduce the tension in a high strung dog by lowering the protein in the food. Maybe this could help?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

So sorry for your loss, Fowler. Your LGD is fortunate to have you as an owner because you love him and are willing to work with him and train him.
It was a mistake, an accident. 
Ziggy didn't mean to do it. He just played rough and "loved" the little lamb too much. =(


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## scarlet812 (Feb 18, 2013)

thaiblue12 said:


> Post four is not the way to go for many reasons, that is not how you train an actual LGD and bloat is for sure is a large concern. That is all I am going to say about that post.
> 
> Neuter him, fence the bottom of his area so lambs cannot get through. My Nigies babies walk right through cattle panels, the bucks are fine with them but if they weren't I would put poultry fence or something around the bottom to stop them. But make sure it is secure because they make smash it down. Well goats would
> After about a month when his testosterone is out of his system, take him around with you while you do your chores and correct him for any bad behavior. No playing, chasing or hyper interest in the animals. If you have to put him on a long line that is held or attached to you, he tries something yank him and tell him no.
> ...


I may be new to homesteading, but I am very experienced with dogs, and this is good advice.


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