# Why am I always breeding the wrong kind of horses?



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

:grumble:

This Dutch Harness Horse stallion sold last fall at PUBLIC auction in Ohio, for $140,000 ... information I have is that he is owned by an Amish farm, stood the previous year at $900 stud fee and bred 70 mares!


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## paintpony (Jan 5, 2013)

What the heck!? Are you saying an Amish farmer bought this stud for $140 frecking thousand?!!!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Yep. Fact. If you watch the video taken at the sale, it was an Amish-run actuion ... auctioneer and the office staff at the microphones are all Amish. Probably one of the 'community' farms ... but I have heard that they are definitely getting into the 'high dollar' harness horse market in some areas and the NE is definitely one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17e390LkEdE&feature=youtu.be#

Have also heard of them buying some of the higher priced registered/imported Haflingers as well.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

He's _highly_ trained, and is desirable as a stallion in his discipline. Apparently, he was worth the money to someone.


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## paintpony (Jan 5, 2013)

I just never even thought that an Amish farmer would spend _that_ kind of money on one horse! A show barn, yes, a farmer, no.

Why are they getting into the high dollar harness horses? Haflingers I can see them getting into.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

That is the nature of the beast. In the paint & qh world it was always trying to keep up with the IN color. Couldn't afford to buy well bred, breeding aged mares with excellent conformation in the color of the year so we'd buy weanlings and then by the time they were old enough to breed....well, of course, there was a new color of the year. 

Not that they couldn't be sold, just not what was bringing in top dollar. Life is much simpler not trying to keep up with all that stuff.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

paintpony said:


> I just never even thought that an Amish farmer would spend _that_ kind of money on one horse! A show barn, yes, a farmer, no.
> 
> Why are they getting into the high dollar harness horses? Haflingers I can see them getting into.


I suspect the Amish are just as inclined as anyone else to liking something 'flashy' for Sunday drives ... with people with cars, it's the latest SUV or sports car ... for the Amish, it's a fancy, high stepping buggy horse. Because of their lifestyle, they can't *compete* with fancy houses, fancy clothes, the latest tech gadgets and high priced cars ... but a fancy buggy horse with fancy harness or a fancy riding horse isn't considered ostentatious in their society. 

Expensive and top quality stud animals of any kind ... horses, cattle, hogs, etc. are often considered the kind of investment that makes perfect sense to them ... just as big farm equipment does to the big commercial farmers.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

The use of the Dutch Harness Horses are providing a good payback to the owners of the GOOD stallions. With stud fees low at $900, owner almost PAID for that stallion in one year! And with that many foals on the ground, horse is going to prove his value VERY quickly in making sound, usable horses so other folks want to breed to him. 

While many folks only see Standardbreds hitched to Amish buggies, they do drive other breeds, with Morgans and Saddlebreds found out front of their vehicles. Depends on what breeds are available locally. All these breeds stay pretty sound, usually trained to drive young, are known to be good workers during longer lives. They also COVER the ground, doing the many miles at a good clip, to keep the Amish folks connected in their lives. 

The DHH is also known to be sound, stays sound, a good traveler in daily use. He is also usually "plain" in his dark color, not much white. The exceptional ones like the above stallion, are put on show, handled by experts in presenting those animals at shows, making him desirable to gain stud fees later. There is an amazing variety of crossbred DHH youngstock coming along. It is ALL ABOUT money, these horses are producers of money in stud fees, sales animals, bred-to-contract foals that match for hitch folks. I have no problem with Amish breeding these animals, it is how they get cash. They don't have Social Security, Welfare folks, or even insurance for death or disasters, that help them out when times are bad. Only family or other Amish folks who help each other. 

If the stallion dies, those folks are out all their money. Calculated risk, hoping for the best. Breeding an expensive Bull would be another such venture, hoping to make money on improved cattle and calves he produces.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Maybe they are thinking that if they allow the young men to have a fancy horse they will be more likely to stay Amish.


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## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

That is an amazing looking horse! Some very high quality morgans have been bred by amish farms. Some have brought high $$ at sales. I think it is correct that they get into these higher end animals as a way to earn income. Amish also raise puppies and all sorts of weird animals.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Someone's going to be very peeved about this remark but that horse is way over checked and has weighted shoes. Probably another breed on it's way to a high sales price boom and bust when it's no longer the hot thing.


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## Belldandy (Feb 16, 2014)

goodhors said:


> The use of the Dutch Harness Horses are providing a good payback to the owners of the GOOD stallions. With stud fees low at $900, owner almost PAID for that stallion in one year! And with that many foals on the ground, horse is going to prove his value VERY quickly in making sound, usable horses so other folks want to breed to him.
> 
> While many folks only see Standardbreds hitched to Amish buggies, they do drive other breeds, with Morgans and Saddlebreds found out front of their vehicles. Depends on what breeds are available locally. All these breeds stay pretty sound, usually trained to drive young, are known to be good workers during longer lives. They also COVER the ground, doing the many miles at a good clip, to keep the Amish folks connected in their lives.
> 
> ...


THAT one's got a lot of chrome, though. 

He's purdyyyy. :grin:


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

where I want to said:


> Someone's going to be very peeved about this remark but that horse is way over checked and has weighted shoes. Probably another breed on it's way to a high sales price boom and bust when it's no longer the hot thing.


Unfortunately, this is how 'fine harness' horses are shown in fine harness classes in the U.S. ... which is about the only venue available to DHH to show in other than in Combined Driving. The breed dates back to the 1800s along with most of the other warmblood breeds developed in Europe, in the Dutch Harness case, the old Gelderlander and Gronigen breeds crossed on some of the lighter breeds. They are shown differently in Europe as well, without the weighted shoes and overchecks ... that is, as far as I know, strictly American style for harness horses. Whether or not the breed maintains it's popularity here in the U.S. may be in question but I suspect, as with the other established warmblood breeds in Europe, the market for the good, solid breeding ... verified by the required presentation and approval prior to registry ... will remain good.

Quite a few combined driving horses are from this breed, as well as their fine harness show horses, in Europe ... not so much in the U.S. This is a photo of one of Dutch Harness horses being shown in a fine harness class in Holland, quite different from the American fine harness classes.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The second picture shows a lovely, natural going horse of substance. The first shows a horse that I suspect has had artifical training in the manner of Saddlebreds. It's not only the breaking above level in front, which few horses are naturally going to do but is possible, but the folding in the rear.

And, even if that is a current style in all US shows, which I have haven't seen in years, the tension on that side check is cruelly tight and leads me to believe that it was necessary to get the desired action. Or at least someone thinks so.

It reminds me of the part of the old Black Beauty novel where the high spirited horse is ruined for the sake of having a showy gait by raising the check unmercifully. It's good to note when this happens.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Interestingly, the video from the auction shows him without a check strap if I see it correctly and he is lovely and less exaggerated.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

GrannyCarol said:


> Interestingly, the video from the auction shows him without a check strap if I see it correctly and he is lovely and less exaggerated.


Yes, I was going to mention that. I'm wondering if whoever owned him when the first photo was taken was an American 'fine harness show trainer' who had him fitted like an American Saddlebred would be for American shows ... and at the sale, he was shown more as a 'working buggy horse' that the Amish would appreciate and more as the Dutch Harness horses are shown in Europe.

I don't follow the Saddlebred shows, but being in KY I do see a few show horse magazines and that is the style in which the fine harness ponies and horses are shown. Not attractive as far as I'm concerned, but like many other things in the American horse show world, it's what they do.

This is a photo of a Dutch Harness horse being shown in an in hand class in Europe ... snaffle bridle, no other tack, and so far as I can see, unweighted shoes and a *normally trimmed* hoof, showing natural movement of the horse, which is what the Europeans want to see.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I used to show Saddlebreds in hand too. And they would maintain the exaggerated gait through the short in hand classes too. But it was achieved having the horse pretty keyed up along with physical training that left a hollowed back. And, for most horses, the handler moving with the speed of a gazelle. But that was not the way the horse went at liberty, if they were lucky enough to ever be at liberty.

I know that breeding does create a horse with more knee action but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. For instance the last in hand picture the horse seems closer to normally shod in front, suggesting natural action, but the rear appears weighted. 

So many ugly games in that esthetic. I just saw it from the ugly underbelly and I suppose that there is the same ugliness in reining or jumping or dressage. Maybe just not so much. Me- I love a horse with a kind eye, good brain and happy in his work before anything else. And I'll enjoy those beautiful gaits when natural exuberance creates them.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

where I want to said:


> For instance the last in hand picture the horse seems closer to normally shod in front, suggesting natural action, but the rear appears weighted.


I don't know, since I've never seen actual classes in Europe, but have been told that weighted shoes are not allowed in European classes. I do know that they are absolutely not allowed in the breed inspections/stallion approvals and I have seen photos from those approvals where the horses ... particularly the top scoring horses ... do demonstrate the same type of movement.

Also, at the inspections, once the horses are shown in hand at a walk and trot, they are released to move 'at liberty' and scored on the at liberty movement as well, with certain minimum scores required at all levels for approval.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

The Dutch Harness is the HOT breed in the Amish communities throughout the US. They are trading for HUGE amounts of money. We have a DHHxPecheron that my wife rides and drives. Many of the Amish in my area are breeding just about everything they can to a DHH stud.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> I don't know, since I've never seen actual classes in Europe, but have been told that weighted shoes are not allowed in European classes. I do know that they are absolutely not allowed in the breed inspections/stallion approvals and I have seen photos from those approvals where the horses ... particularly the top scoring horses ... do demonstrate the same type of movement.
> 
> Also, at the inspections, once the horses are shown in hand at a walk and trot, they are released to move 'at liberty' and scored on the at liberty movement as well, with certain minimum scores required at all levels for approval.


Well any at liberty judging is good. But I can also tell you that shoeing for gait , even in breeds with restrictions, is an art that is incredibly devious. At least as I have seen practiced. It would be wonderful if all breed approval was done without shoes at all.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

where I want to said:


> Well any at liberty judging is good. But I can also tell you that shoeing for gait , even in breeds with restrictions, is an art that is incredibly devious. At least as I have seen practiced. It would be wonderful if all breed approval was done without shoes at all.


At most of the warmblood breed approvals I've seen here in the U.S. (and they are organized and staffed by European registry officials, not American inspectors) the mares (who are not judged unless they are being presented for approval themselves) are shown barefoot and I don't know that I've ever seen one of the foals at side with shoes. 

The stallion testing, which all stallions must complete with minimum required scores in all phases of the testing, is done at a designated facility, under registry staff supervision and under registry approved trainers/riders over a period of 70 days, both at the various sites in Europe and also here in the U.S. Stallions are not able to sire *approvable/registerable* foals unless they have passed this testing which must include under saddle testing (or driving). Mares are not required to be tested under saddle, but must be approved in hand/at liberty and from either approved sire and dam or from bloodlines that are accepted as approvable by the registry.

The trainers are selected on the basis of competence in the disciplines being tested for, all veterinary care and farrier care is handled under the supervision of the registry inspectors. Basically, no options for devious practices by the individual owners.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

I haven't watched a horse show in 60 years. Do they still "sore" and "ginger" horses?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

65284 said:


> I haven't watched a horse show in 60 years. Do they still "sore" and "ginger" horses?


I have never been to any of the gaited horse shows in the 15 years I've lived in KY and we didn't have gaited horse shows in MT when I lived there, so I can't tell you from personal experience. However, from what I read from people that do go to the shows ... both of these practices are still found in the gaited horse circles. Soring, especially, with the Tennessee Walkers, it seems ... gingering with the American Saddlebreds more, I think.

The horse shows I've been to over the last 25 years have been three-day events, hunter shows and dressage competitions, where those particular practices do not occur.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

The Amish around here seem to be having a competition for the most head-bobbing lame buggy horses.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I suppose the Amish are like anyone else ... people ... some treat their animals well and some don't. 

We have two Amish communities quite close, including one we drive through to get our hay, so see quite a few Amish with teams out in the field and buggies on the road, including an Amish "school bus" taking children to school during the school year. We also do business at the harness shop and use an Amish farrier ... so have had quite a lot of contact over the years. I have to say I can't recall seeing more than one or two buggy horses that were lame in the years I've been here and one of those was at the vet clinic when I was there.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> The Amish around here seem to be having a competition for the most head-bobbing lame buggy horses.


In my experience, the Amish use their horses as pieces of equipment to use up, wear out, and throw away. 

Around here "Amish broke" horses are not a good thing.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Around here "Amish broke" horses are not a good thing.


As I said, different people like anywhere else. The Haflinger mare (Amish trained) I traded for years ago is one of the best trained, useful horses I've ever owned, both the Amish farriers I've used were extremely good with the horses and some years ago I had a young Amish boy come to the farm and ride a young horse (we picked him up and brought him here) half a dozen times to get him started. Again, very competent and very tuned into the horse's mindset and attitude. From personal experience, in this area, I'd much rather have one of the local Amish ride for me than any of several other trainers I've tried (mostly Tennessee Walker people).


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

We don't have many Amish is our local area, but our niece married a man that was raised Amish, but never joined the church so is not shunned. We have gotten to know some of his family and they are allowed to drive trucks. They have to be black, have no chrome, and no radio. The Amish and the buggies may be starting to die out.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

The Amish here are not allowed to have any 'technology' ... electricity, phones, power tools, etc., but we also have a lot of Mennonite people as well and they are allowed some of these things. I'm not conversant enough with their rules to know just what ... or under what circumstances.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

These are very modern Amish, but 8 of their 16 kids left the church, and I think that had an effect on them and the rest of their church. 

They also have cameras-I'm not sure that is allowed--but when I noticed on of the sisters of the groom holding a handful of cameras I asked her about it. She said that is the dumbest rules they ever came up with, her kids all get cameras at six because she wants them to have pictures of their childhood. They are not tied to the grid with wires, but use electricity from small hydro plants. They have computers and one of the sisters has an embroidery machine. They also have cell phones, even some of the more traditional of the group. They are okay because they don't use wires to tie them to the world. I think they are more relaxed because they are a small community, in MT and a long way from the community they grew up in.


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