# alternative energy feasibility



## millipede (May 28, 2006)

I've wanted to use alternative energy sources for a long time now. Wind, solar, whatever. But, it's so expensive so far. Will the price EVER come down so middle and lower class people can afford it?

I've known for a while that it's just not an option for us right now. We're poor.
But my wife recently started REALLY wanting to get into it. She's been searching and searching online. 
Trying to say it in nicer terms, I've told her she was wasting her time. Not that research was bad but, that it for sure wasn't something we could afford. I mean, solar powered lights for the yard are too expensive for us really.

I was wondering though if someone could throw out some ballpark figures for alternative energy sources for us. My wife has been trying to do some math and stuff and it seems to me that you have to know what you're doing just to figure out that part of it. 
Our house is probably 900 something square feet. I don't know off hand how much electricity we use in a month but I could probably find an electric bill somewhere around here.
Doesn't have to be accurate, just some basic thoughts on costs.
I think it would help my wife to have someone explain it simply rather than going from site to site to site trying to figure out all the individual costs.


My wife heard on a Christan news program recently that the government was considering putting something on every electric meter in the country to see what people are using and if people use more than they should, somehow stop them from using too much. I think that's insane... I also think the money it would take to start such a program, and then monitor it... they'd be better off installing wind or solar stuff at every house in the country. It would cost less in the long run if you ask me. But our government loves to regulate things....


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

About the best thing you can do for energy is maximize use of 4 cyl cars and setting your thermostat a lot lower. It doesn't take all that much to make a big difference . I set mine down to 50F in the main rooms at night and pretty much let the pellet stove idle all night. We heat the bedrooms to about 55 or so with a small portable electric heater and electric blanket. It never gets over 65 except in the living room where the pellet stove is. Works pretty well overall and saves a pile of money as electric spot heating is a lot cheaper than heating the whole house even with NYSG rates. 
I think what your wife heard on the radio is "smart meters" which are part of the smart grid improvements. Its all part of trying to tidy up the patchwork electric grid that is starting to show it's age the last decade or so. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

millipede said:


> I've wanted to use alternative energy sources for a long time now. Wind, solar, whatever. But, it's so expensive so far. Will the price EVER come down so middle and lower class people can afford it?


What you CAN afford right now, and everyone SHOULD do before they consider even looking at solar/wind, is cut your current use. By conserving the energy you use now, it is MUCH MORE cost effective than slapping up solar.....often 5-10 times cheaper.....just not as sexy. 







millipede said:


> Our house is probably 900 something square feet. I don't know off hand how much electricity we use in a month but I could probably find an electric bill somewhere around here.


The above statements tell me you have no idea how much you are wasting NOW, and putting up expensive solar is NOT the way to solve that.

Buy a "Kil-a-watt" meter.....get the 2nd generation model, that holds the recorded values until you clear them ( the 1st gen model looses it as soon as you unplug, so you have to get down on your knees to read, or use an extension cord ). THEN start checking everything you plug in a 120v outlet. You'd be amazed how much you can cut without pain, just knowledge.

Spend your time reading on electric conservation rather than solar. When you have cut your use 30-50%, THEN you can start considering solar....not until.



millipede said:


> My wife heard on a Christan news program recently that the government was considering putting something on every electric meter in the country to see what people are using and if people use more than they should, somehow stop them from using too much. I think that's insane... I also think the money it would take to start such a program, and then monitor it... they'd be better off installing wind or solar stuff at every house in the country. It would cost less in the long run if you ask me. But our government loves to regulate things....


Well, you only got part of the story.

What is coming to ALL electrical systems is "Smart Meters". It's actually going to be a GOOD thing.

1. The meters will transmit your reading back to the main office via wireless. No more meter readers. Lower labor costs mean your power rate won't go up as fast.

2. The "cut off" part is going to be a balancing act. Right now, all industrial users pay a "demand" charge in addition to the actual amount of power they use. I don't know of any residential users that do ( there may be some, I just don't know of any ). A demand charge is when you DEMAND the power company furnish you with all the power you want WHEN you want it. 

Let's say you normally use 30 kw/hrs per day.....but at 4am, you're using almost none....then at 7am, you get up, fire up the kitchen stove, 3 people in the house take a shower, daughter is using her hair dryer, and so on....your DEMAND peaks from 7 to 8am when everybody leaves for work/school. Then it drops off again until about 3-5pm, when it peaks AGAIN for a couple hours.

This is EXACTLY what happens in the residential market ( also the industrial market )......but here's the problem from the power company side:

They can't make their primary source of generation ( which are coal fired boilers, or nuke plants ) suddenly react to a sudden demand by their customers. SO, they either have to buy power from far away ( where the time zone hasn't created that demand there yet ) OR they fire up diesel or natural gas generators, which are far more expensive to run than their primary source, and THAT COST has to go to SOMEBODY. 

Right now, industrial users pay the brunt of that cost......residential users have gotten a HUGE break for years.

Enter the "smart meter". NOW the power company will have the ability to control certain appliances in it's customer's homes.....like the water heater. When you turn on the hot water, you get hot water because it's stored in the tank. But soon after you run the hot water, one of the elements kicks in and start reheating water before you even use all of it. You turn off your shower, but the water heater keeps right on heating until it heats the whole tank back up.....even though you left and went to work.

What the smart meter will do ( along with some more inter connection devices ) is NOT let the water heater heat that water for a couple more hours.....maybe even 2pm, since you're not home and using it ANYWAY. That will help balance the load on the system, keep costs down, AND save you money !

THAT is what smart metering is about.....not regulation for the sake of regulation.....but keeping costs lower SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY MORE.


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## millipede (May 28, 2006)

> The above statements tell me you have no idea how much you are wasting NOW


(I don't know why I feel offended by that comment)
in numbers, no... but...... we do try. We turn off lights that we're not using. We don't let water run while we brush our teeth, etc... We keep the thermostat a little lower than we'd like, though not as low as 55. In the summer I have the thermostat set around 80ish. We're not perfect, but we definitely try harder than the average household.
We do try and I even do my best to try to get others to be more careful with their electric use. 

I only brought up the question because my wife has been spending a lot of time researching it and it's not easy to research if you're completely new to idea like we are. I already stated, it's not something we can do right now.
and oh... the statement I made was about the size of the house and the electric use because I wanted some input on what some sort of system would cost for our house size and energy use.
I wont ask anyone to NOT share energy saving techniques, we can all learn something, but it's not what I'm here asking about.
Though I do not want to put it this way, I brought this up partly to help my wife realize we can't afford such a thing right now. There's a lot of stuff that she doesn't take me at my word on. She has to hear it from someone else... or read it herself.

I appreciate all the energy saving advice, I do. But I didn't start the topic to have people tell me what I need to do or what I'm doing wrong. I just wanted some ideas or possibly numbers to satisfy my wife's curiosity. 
For example... if someone said "it would easily cost more than $10,000, just to pick a random number) to set something up properly", she'd probably not be looking into it as seriously.

Thanks for clarifying that about the smart readers. I'm still a little unsure of what I think about that. 
What you mention about say the water heater. I don't like that idea at all. I'd prefer to have hot water available whenever I need it.
We have a smallish tank, and a family of 6. If we all take showers on a given morning, the hot water goes fast.
Sure I can try even harder to use less hot water but, things come up.
While I understand the reasoning and all you explained, I still have a hard time feeling okay about someone, especially the government, having that kind of control over something like that.
It may be a good thing in some ways but I can definitely see it being a problem for a lot of people...
No more meter readers, good for the company... bad for the meter readers... they're out a job.
Oh, and how can a meter, something outside the house, control the water heater? Wouldn't it affect ALL power in the house? You would have to rewire the whole house to control different appliances separately. What if I have other demands at random times during the day? 

anyway...
I try not to but I may have sounded, offended in my reply. I get offended real easily, especially if I feel judged(whether or not I actually am). It's a flaw. 
Thanks for the replies......


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

TnAndy, there is a new wrinkle in those natural gas peak power generators. There is a glut of natural gas now, due to better methods of extraction. In fact, the natural gas market is at a buy point, stock-wise. Costs of running those peak power generators has got to have dropped as the price of NG has gone down the tubes.

millipede, power at 12 cents a KWH is dirt cheap. The only people who might stand a chance of consistently generating power less expensively are those who have bought a 24/7/365 water power site and not had the costs of developing or permitting the place.

There are some areas where money can be saved, such as using wood for heat if you own a forest. Solar and wind generally require batteries, and by looking at the other threads you can see those aren't very cost effective.

Smart meters and demand - you don't need those for control. Such setups are common in south Florida and are voluntary. FPL will come in and set it up at no charge. The water heater, pool pump, and AC are broken out onto a separate circuit, and during extreme peaks, the power company can briefly cut them off. They don't need to do it for extended periods, since they can just hit a peak ten minute period, or cycle groups of homes to achieve a lower peak. They provide a discount on the power bill in exchange for being able to do this. A close neighbor signed up and was never able to tell the difference.

It really is all about conservation. Off the grid folks use tremendously less power than many of us. That means no 60 watt tivo and 30 watt cable box or sat receiver going 24/7, minimal use of electric for heat energy, no central air and so on.

Costs of off-grid setups can vary wildly, so asking a price is kinda like asking how much does a car cost. Come to think of it, costs are probably comparable.


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## roachhill (Jul 8, 2009)

I find when I built my cabin without power all I really missed was lights, music, running water and a fridge. So far I've added a few lights, music and I'm working on the water system the fridge is currently gas. At this point I've bought a handful of battieries and a small generator and I'm getting ready to add the first few solar panels to charge the batteries without wasting money on gas. Doing this made going off grid reasonably painless and affordable. You just need to ask yourself what your needs are if you need a traditional electrical powered house and don't have a bank full of money off grid is not for you but if you just want the basic neccessities then it can be affordable.


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## millipede (May 28, 2006)

Thanks for the info. 
So with the smart meter things, they would indeed have to separate some things... but, now that I'm reading that and thinking about it, it would just be to the breaker in your house.
Makes sense. Still bothers me though. I think I might have a hard time with anything the government decides it needs to control.

I do really, really wish I had a place to put a wood stove. If I didn't have 4 kids I could probably find a place to put one. But there's just no room for one. We have 3 to 4 acres of trees... and there's always places to get free wood around here. It would be VERY efficient, as far as money goes. I grew up with a wood stove in the house and I miss it. But putting anything at all in this house, just takes up too much room.
Anyway...
We try to save energy where we can... and we'll continue to try and do better.
This year we plan on replacing our windows. They're REALLY cheap and we just hate them. They're metal... there's usually moisture on them in the winter, etc...
We also plan on adding a window or three(maybe $) to the sides of the house. This thing only has them on the front and back so we don't always have the best air flow. Also want one for the bathroom so I don't need a light during the daytime.
If we can, we may by replacing the back door as well. Also an aluminum frame and it is also lousy.
There's a lot more LEDs at the stores now and I'm thinking of buying some LED bulbs for the lights in the house this year.
So much we want to do... we'll just see how far the money goes with those things this year. 

We don't use a ton of electricity and I had told my wife that any system that would provide enough electricity would probably take years to pay off.
I was talking with her a few minutes ago and I guess she was looking at the batteries and already thinking it wasn't the best idea.

We get this monthly magazine free called rural arkansas, put out by the electric cooperatives or something... and they always have energy saving tips in there. It's usually a good read.

Anyway... I'll again state that, I did not start this topic because it's something I plan on doing. Just wanted some ideas.
But I suppose you're right that, prices will vary and vary greatly.
And just like cars... I think it's all WAY over priced.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Millipede:

I wasn't out to offend, my point was MOST people have no idea how much power they use, or where it's going.....you're not alone in this.

And that step one is to get a good handle on how you use electricity, and where you can make savings, before ever looking at producing any. You have to have a baseline to measure where you are NOW so you'll know if you're winning the fight on conservation.

Take your windows, for example. The typical house your size will have 12-15 windows. ( I did replacement windows for the last 15 years I worked ). Spending 250 bucks/window, ( installed price ), you will replace those really SORRY metal frame windows with good, double pane glass ( be sure to get the LowE glass ) vinyl frame windows for about 3 to 4,000 bucks. That will save a HUGE amount of energy....if you heat with electric, it will probably cut your power bill by 1/3 in the winter.

To do that with solar ( especially in the winter when the weather is the worse ) would take 20,000 ! ( That's about what I spent on my system to produce 1/3 of our power ).

Clearly, it's more cost effective to put the windows in.

Same thing with wood heat. Even if you have to build a chimney and install a brand new stove ( say you spent 4-5,000 ), again, WAY cheaper than solar, and more cost effective.

Once you work your way down thru all the stuff you can do that is WAY cheaper than solar, and can't do anymore ( which is what we did.....good windows, good insulation, wood heat, replaced old appliances, etc ), and you simply can't cut anymore without really sacrificing lifestyle, THEN you're ready to look at solar/wind/whatever.

My wife was looking over my shoulder as I typed the part about the Smart Meters. Just the other day, a newsletter came in our power bill where they are offering a discount to folks that sign up for a pilot program like I said.....where they can install controls on some of your appliances ( like the water heater,or electric heaters ) to mesh with the Smart Meters they are already installing now. She said "Why don't we sign up for that ? "

I said "Honey....think about it a minute. We've don't have an electric water heater now....changed to gas years ago ( love it ). Our heat is 90% wood, rest is propane backup ( for when the weather is too mild to fire up wood ). 

We just changed the kitchen to gas cook top ( still do have electric wall oven )....basically, there isn't ANYTHING in the house that they could cut off we wouldn't miss....you don't want to be cutting lighting circuits, or have the TV die for 5 minutes while you're watching it......so there isn't anything left IN our house to sign up FOR"

But we have our monthly use down to about 650kw/hrs, and the average house on the TVA system is around 2200. Those "average" houses are what that program is for.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Some peoples have electrical habits that they would find VERY hard to break.
Take the microwave; I've been to 'friends' where my coffee cup is taken away from me and put in the microwave to 'warm it up' (its only half full) . . .whoosshh . .there goes a bunch of electrical energy.
So for some living with out a microwave monster would be a big 'life change'
I was at a 'party' of some folks that I had installed a generator/battery/inverter backup system for . . .a teenage son put a pair of pants in the electric dryer ... just to warm them up before putting them on................!!!!!...........

Folks like this need a monster mind set change before even talking about "Solar etc."

---Unless they want to put a $75,000 down payment, and then I'll install a system for them that will accommodate their wanton needs.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

millipede said:


> I've wanted to use alternative energy sources for a long time now. Wind, solar, whatever. But, it's so expensive so far. Will the price EVER come down so middle and lower class people can afford it?


Price come down? Yes, it will as soon as there is enough production capacity to supply more than what is being used. When will this happen, I am predicting soon, as Europe has consumed a lot of the international supply and now most apparently has been implemented. How cheap will it get? Who knows, but hopefully cheap enough so that homes all over can and will use it.




> I was wondering though if someone could throw out some ballpark figures for alternative energy sources for us. My wife has been trying to do some math and stuff and it seems to me that you have to know what you're doing just to figure out that part of it.


I got a price on a wind-powered electrical generation system to supply a moderate sized house. It was $51,000, installed, less rebates. That was for a 120 foot tower and a 6.5 KW generator, a "normal" system for a single family house to produce its own power in that area (Indiana.) 

For the quotes on solar systems, it looks as if we are talking about the same cash outlay, maybe a few thousand less to provide the same power.

If you want to research what you can do yourself for energy conservation and supply, read these forums on a regular basis (outdoor heaters which take up no interior space have been discussed recently, for example, and since you have wood available to heat with may be something to look into) to get ideas. For do-it-yourself ideas and just to look into what can and is being done, check out the website http://builditsolar.com. There are loads of things on there that can be done for a reasonable cost and can cut your on-going costs pretty heavily (the $1,000 solar hot water heater comes to mind.) 

Since your wife is into alternative energy, encourage her to go to the library or a bookstore (even the book resale shops around here have them) and get some books on the topic and read them. An informed consumer is always a better consumer and the field of alternative energy is full of snake-oil salesmen. 

I agree with Andy, replace those windows. Even knowing that we were going to be moving soon, we replaced 35 windows in out home, cut the bills and made them more comfortable at the same time. 

Another cheaper than solar or wind idea is to look into the insulation of your home. A lot of remedial insulation can be done fairly reasonably, IF you do-it-yourself. 

Why do people do solar and wind if its more expensive at this time? Can only speak for myself, but we want to do it so we don't feel like we are wasting the precious resources that our grandkids and their grandkids grandkids will need to survive, but then, consider this is coming from an old fogey grandfather.


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## millipede (May 28, 2006)

Thanks for the info everyone. It is helpful.

Not counting the back door, we only have 5 windows.
The one over the kitchen sink is the worst. Some of the trim around it needs to be replaced as well now from moisture damage. There's been ice on the inside of the outer window the past few mornings.
Yeah... I can't wait to replace them.

I haven't looked into in in a long time but, I've considered some sort of sky light, one of those tube deals that isn't that expensive, for the main bathroom. The shower is taking up the entire outer wall and there's only about a foot at most above that so putting in a window would be difficult. But, I would like to have windows for the bathrooms for lighting. My mom's house had a window and we never had to put a light on during the day. Sure would be nice to be able to do that same here.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Spend a lot of time at www.builditsolar.com there is so much information there you'll never get tired of going there. There's a lot of things a person can do with alternative energy that don't cost a ton.

Another way to save is do it yourself. If you're handy you can install a wind or solar (electric or hot water) system yourself. Educate yourself, take a class on installation, even if it's $1000 for the class that's less than a contractor.

But yes, as it's been mentioned, whole house systems (wind or solar) contractor installed can cost well over $20,000, and even that might not take care of your needs 100% depending on your usage (your usage is the key to all this though).

So far I've spent $14,000 replacing all my windows and having the entire house (walls and roof) re-insulated. I had all of that contractor installed. But, based on todays cost of propane that'll pay for itself in about 9 years, with the cost still going up it'll be paid for long before then. I've started a solar hot water whole house heating system that should take care of about 40%-50% of my heat. Since I'm doing that myself I'll have about $11,000 total into that project (part of that will be hired labor). It's been a slow process though since I have other commitments. But, at 40-50% of my current heat bill that'll pay for itself in about 12 years at current propane prices. A general contractor wanted $26,000 to install a system that should have covered 30% of my heat, I went the DIY route instead.

So, a little at a time and look at the long term pay back. Buy/Install what you can, when you can.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

Kevingr said:


> Spend a lot of time at www.builditsolar.com there is so much information there you'll never get tired of going there. There's a lot of things a person can do with alternative energy that don't cost a ton.


We are in process of designing a new home and have learned a lot on there that even our builder and architect didn't know about. That site has all kinds of info and if you see something you are interested in knowing more about, Gary usually has links to more about it. (As a retired EE, I am in hog-heaven with the info on there!)



> So far I've spent $14,000 replacing all my windows and having the entire house (walls and roof) re-insulated. I had all of that contractor installed. But, based on todays cost of propane that'll pay for itself in about 9 years, with the cost still going up it'll be paid for long before then. I've started a solar hot water whole house heating system that should take care of about 40%-50% of my heat. Since I'm doing that myself I'll have about $11,000 total into that project (part of that will be hired labor). It's been a slow process though since I have other commitments. But, at 40-50% of my current heat bill that'll pay for itself in about 12 years at current propane prices. A general contractor wanted $26,000 to install a system that should have covered 30% of my heat, I went the DIY route instead.
> 
> So, a little at a time and look at the long term pay back. Buy/Install what you can, when you can.


That is the major thing we all need to think about, what can we do that is most effective in our situation. Each case will vary, but some basics are true all over, i.e. insulate as much as you can, conserve to the point it makes sense (turn down heat, lights off when not in use, etc.), etc. Heating may not be a big deal if you live in the high deserts of Sandy Eggo, but cooling will be.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

millipede said:


> Thanks for the info everyone. It is helpful.
> 
> Not counting the back door, we only have 5 windows.
> The one over the kitchen sink is the worst. Some of the trim around it needs to be replaced as well now from moisture damage. There's been ice on the inside of the outer window the past few mornings.
> Yeah... I can't wait to replace them.


Until you can replace the windows, I would suggest you run down to Wally World and pick up one of these "Home Sealing Starter Kits" http://www.walmart.com/ip/Duck-Brand-Home-Sealing-Starter-Kit/15077944. For under $10, you can at least put that on the inside of the windows and at least it will act like another layer of insulation and stop some of the air leaks and convection going on. Sounds like you have a pretty tremendous points of loss of heat right now that should be dealt with ASAP. The socket sealers can be used on exterior walls where you can feel cool air around them and the weatherstripping can be used on the door where you can feel the most air coming in around it. It would give you and immediate start on lowering consumption and am willing to bet that you will save the price of the kit in the next few months, if not weeks, due to lower utility bills.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

millipede,

Lots of great advice here already, to which I can add but little. However, I'll offer what we are doing FWIW. 

On cost of a solar system:

Over the past 2 years I have bought all the components for a 1,400 watt solar PV system, panels, batteries, MPPT charge controllers, lightning protection, wiring switches, outlets, copper buss line down the center of the basement, 16 Trojan T105 batteries, cables, Trimetric battery monitor, inverters, it goes on and on. I have most of this assembled, having paid for zero labor. My cost for parts alone is about $12,000. 

This system is designed to operate a refrigerator and a freezer, both on AC, at about 840 watt hours per 24 hour day, plus our internet based phone system and wireless internet, a 19" LCD TV at 60 watts, a 7" LCD TV at 9 watts, 2 laptops at 28 watts each (batteries removed to reduce draw), a SW radio, a CB radio, AM-FM radio, a couple fans at 70 watts each, and numerous 12 volt CFL lamps, but only a couple of those at a time. Most of the above items are for intermittent use only. Heavy use of them all would kill the system. 

1400 watts of panels X 4.2 hours of usable sun gets me 5880 watt hours per day. That is 5.88 KWHRS per day. On a GOOD day. For 12 grand. I can buy grid power for 10 cents per KWHR. That makes the system pay for itself in 58 years, and I am already 65 years old! You won't make any money at this. The only practical reason to do the solar system is for the personal security of having long term standby power. 

Our heat is a wood stove, and water is to be heated on that wood stove if grid power is not available. We plan to supplement the wood stove space heating with passive solar, but that is not on line yet. 

Separately, my DD and son in law live off-grid. They have 2 solar panels, 180 watts each, to power lights, LCD TV, phone charging, and a wringer washing machine (I don't have one yet, but hope to soon), while LP gas operates their fridge/freezer, kitchen range (being replaced with a wood range), home heating, and tankless water heater. 

They spend about $700/year for LP gas. They have an outdoor wood furnace under construction to reduce that by half, possibly more when the wood cook range is going. Their wringer washer requires a 12 volt generator to run in winter, during poor solar insolation, but the panels mostly keep up in the summer. 

To help achieve the low heating cost, their home is small-24 x 36-and is super insulated. It is built of commercially prefabbed panels of 6" styrofoam in the walls with OSB on both sides, designed to "key" together for fast construction. The roof is the same, except it it 8" thick. I don't know the R factors. The exterior is sided with T-111 plywood and the roof is covered with painted steel. The 2 doors are insulated steel, and the 4 windows are LowE double pane, plus storm windows. The home is south-facing, and passive solar space heating will be added as they get to it. 

I hope these 2 case studies help with your estimating.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

machinist said:


> millipede,
> 
> *You won't make any money at this. The only practical reason to do the solar system is for the personal security of having long term standby power. *


Exactly sir. You sound like a man with uncommonly good common sense. 

And the very same reason that motivated me. The fact mine reduces my electric bill is a secondary bonus. When I'm asked "what is the payback".....I smile and say "probably never".


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

wellll . there is a foam outlet up here cheap cheap althogh not perfect. is there anything simular down there. if your siding is looking a bit bad/ready to go 3 inches of extruded poly foam or better polyiso outside under your siding.(3" xps= ~R15 3"polyiso ~R21)
ground tubes if you have a strong back and a weak mind as the saying goes  a series of tubes underground that you force air thru in the hot summer to cool if its hot enough to bother resulting air is around the yearly average air temp 64 degrees in little rock .. if that helps
solar air heater from empty beer cans
since you are replacing windows... do you have a side on your house pointing due south? high solar gain windows on that side(add awning or grape vine on trellis  for summer )


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## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

TnAndy said:


> Exactly sir. You sound like a man with uncommonly good common sense.
> 
> And the very same reason that motivated me. The fact mine reduces my electric bill is a secondary bonus. When I'm asked "what is the payback".....I smile and say "probably never".


I've spent about 30k on my system over the years and installed it all myself. Got a great education doing it. The first thing people always ask is about payback time. At the .10 kwh we pay for grid the answer is never but...

Does anyone really believe electricity prices aren't going up?
What about all the toys people blow money on that does nothing like the boats that sit in people's yards they never use around here? What is the payback time on them? Never.

I answer it's not about payback time but about being more self sufficient. When the power goes out in my neighborhood mine never does. Many times we don't even know it's out.
Plus the solar is always doing something. Producing something. Not just sitting in the yard rotting away like unused toys.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Thanks Machinst for the good post about the real cost of all the components needed for a "system".

And trkral . . .you got that right . .'self sufficient' 'payback' etc etc.

And another reminder folks; the well subsidized utility companys rates will likely double (and then some) shortly down the road.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Jim-mi said:


> Thanks Machinst for the good post about the real cost of all the components needed for a "system".
> 
> And trkral . . .you got that right . .'self sufficient' 'payback' etc etc.
> 
> And another reminder folks; the well subsidized utility companys rates will likely double (and then some) shortly down the road.


FWIW, the consumer cost of electric power has almost always been far less than the cost of inflation. Power was about 5 cents/ kwh in the 1960s. At 12 cents/kwh now, the real cost would be the same as about 1.5 cents in the 1960s.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

well just for laughs on electric rates google smart meters California they are getting gouged by the device thats suppose to be saving them money


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

You can build a solar water heater for just a few dollars. Plywood box, a couple coiils of black plastic tubing, clear poly top for the box.

I got a price for a wind generator, because I have really reliable wind. $30,000. 

That one is hard to understand. There is nothing in that windmill that ought to cost anywhere near $30,000. That's some hefty mark-up on those dudes. But until the price comes down, it's not going to happen here.


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> But we have our monthly use down to about 650kw/hrs, and the average house on the TVA system is around 2200. Those "average" houses are what that program is for.


TnAndy, I have to admit, this comment caught me off guard. I must be living in another word. When we were hooked to the electrical umbilical cord our annual usage averaged 750 kWh's per month. This was with a NG hot water heater and house heating but electric oven and the usual lighting, computer, satellite dish, TV, 20 year old freezer chugging away, etc...

I would have been hard pressed to have figured out how to use 2200 kWh's a month, wow. I currently have an OWB for domestic hot water and infloor heating. A fridge and freezer, 3 laptops and standard lighting. We use roughly 5 kWh on this system on a cold, dark, windy day.

Millipede, you have brought up a good subject, indeed.

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

oregon woodsmok said:


> I got a price for a wind generator, because I have really reliable wind. $30,000.
> 
> That one is hard to understand. There is nothing in that windmill that ought to cost anywhere near $30,000. That's some hefty mark-up on those dudes. But until the price comes down, it's not going to happen here.


I agree, with that observation, that's why we wrote a book on wind power. Too much hype and flimsy turbines. Way too much information is available from the manufacturer/dealer point of view while us consumers are forking over the dough for machines that are questionable at best. I can't say it any stronger than, it is best to know what you are getting into with a wind energy system before you plunk down the cash. And depending on how big of a turbine you are thinking about, if you are handy and safe, a DIY install may be entirely possible.

We have been at it for a few years and conclude that unless you absolutely need a wind turbine, as we do for the dark winters, it is best to avoid them. There may be some that disagree and have perfectly fine machines in operation but we are in a location that is not kind to turbines so we view them from a critical point.

Curious oregon woodsmok, was the turbine you got a quote on a Bergey Excel? 

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Valleyguy said:


> I would have been hard pressed to have figured out how to use 2200 kWh's a month, wow.



Rick,

Yep....I agree. Even back when we DID have an all electric home, 900-100kw/hrs was our average for 30 years.....but that 2200kw/hr figure is the average home in the TVA system last time I looked. It's nothing to hear of folks with 300 buck power bills.

The water heater and electric heat are the BIGGIES, followed by central AC. Houses in the TVA system were built notoriously inefficiently ( little insulation, crappy aluminum windows, and so on ) in years past because power was dirt cheap.

We have ours down in that 650 range, but still have an electric oven ( when gas on the cook top ). BUT we also have 3 freezers, and I do have an electric water heater out in the auxiliary kitchen that gets turned on when we do canning, or cut up meat out there ( like today, we cut up a hog )...also have a window AC in the walk in cooler I run to keep the meat chilled. And I run a 130 watts of heating in the small chicken house when the temps dip into the mid 20's or below.....electric de-icer in the cattle watering tank.....and so on.....not really big stuff, but it adds up. We try to make up for it, LED lighting, for example everywhere we can, and so on.....new fridge that uses 1/2 the Kw/hrs of the old one......but without cuts to farm life, I don't see us getting much below our 650.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

trkarl said:


> Does anyone really believe electricity prices aren't going up?


Not me. Seen it go up by a factor of 5 in the last 30 years. Got the bills to prove it.




trkarl said:


> What about all the toys people blow money on that does nothing like the boats that sit in people's yards they never use around here? What is the payback time on them? Never.


Same argument I use. What's the payback on a bass boat ? Yet people will drop 15-20k on one and never think about it.




trkarl said:


> I answer it's not about payback time but about being more self sufficient. When the power goes out in my neighborhood mine never does.


Preach it brother.....Amen. Last couple day power outage we had, invited the neighbors up for supper. Pretty much everything in our house ( of any importance) was running. His wife walked over to the sink to wash her hands, and said "you've not only GOT water....you've got HOT WATER !" ( water is gravity fed spring, most folks here is well with electric pump ), and water heater is gas....so, yeah...hot, running water.....probably the only house in 3-4 miles that did....ahahahaaaa


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

well when i build where i dont use wood(rocket mass in the attached green house) and what isnt solar hot water i will doing electric. am I crazy??

well natural gas is 3-4 times the cost as it is in the south ie oklahoma etc and is not plumbed in. and i cannot produce enough natural gas no matter how many bean pots i eat to power it. but i CAN how ever make electricity. so boosting DHW if needed will be on demand electrics will be temp booster for radiant. etc etc


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## roachhill (Jul 8, 2009)

My thought is while I'm working it's time to build a reasonably self sufficient home. That way when it comes time for retirement or an emergancy situation the bills won't be as big an issue. If I have a power system that can cover the basics, a woodstove, a few chickens and cows and a garden I should get by no matter what the situation. What is peace of mind worth.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

roachhill said:


> My thought is while I'm working it's time to build a reasonably self sufficient home. That way when it comes time for retirement or an emergancy situation the bills won't be as big an issue. If I have a power system that can cover the basics, a woodstove, a few chickens and cows and a garden I should get by no matter what the situation. What is peace of mind worth.


Absolutely! That's what we are doing. Just trying to make our lives a little more comfortable and self sufficient for any disaster or SHTF situation. What really really really burns me up is watching all the folks that are on the "system" waste what they do. Most will not even try to help themselves get ready for any problems. Now don't get me wrong if someone is trying than rock on ! If they are just a dead beat well (as my grandmother would have said)" You made your bed now lay in it." Nuff said ! :grin:

Millipede-- Everyone here has given you good advise. It's a lot cheaper to conserve (insulation, windows, doors etc.) than to produce. I learned that the hard way. You may not be able to do it all at one time, just do it as you can. Baby steps- and it will pay off in the long run.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

Valleyguy said:


> Curious oregon woodsmok, was the turbine you got a quote on a Bergey Excel?
> 
> Rick
> *Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
> *Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


That was the system I got my 50k+ quote on. Now I see where Lowe's wants over 65k for the same thing. 


Interesting thing is that a law has just been passed where we are moving that will allow only monopole towers to be used, plus the usual restrictions on property lines, buildings, etc. That drives up the price even more.  Oh, well, at least they do get sun in Indiana.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

trkarl said:
"Does anyone really believe electricity prices aren't going up?"

Indeed! It goes up steadily, just not real fast at the moment. A very important reason for our solar PV system is really the payback that I expect, based on rate increases, but not just the normal ones. 

-We have CONgress talking about carbon taxes, and Indiana has almost all coal based electric generation. That could make a whopping difference in the cost of power, although how much is unknown at present. 

-The US Dollar is tanking, and oil prices are going up. All energy forms follow, at least to some degree, and much of the East US relies on oil fueled electric generation. If electric goes up in one area, others will follow eventually. 

-If, as I expect, the dollar fails to inflation/hyperinflation, prices will go nuts and the only power I will be able to afford will be what I generate for near nothing. 

Our home was originally all electric, with ceiling cable resistance heat. If power fails for us, that means no energy at all in our house. Thus, we are taking it off grid, one step at a time. Wood heat, passive solar heat, passive solar hot water (batch), solar PV for fridge, freezer, lights, communications, gasoline (stored) powered grain mill (big one), kerosene lamps (backup), gasoline powered generator and welder, and so on. 

What price is electricity when there ISN'T ANY to be had? At that point, it pays off instantly. :dance:


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

Quote:
"I got a price for a wind generator, because I have really reliable wind. $30,000. 

That one is hard to understand. There is nothing in that windmill that ought to cost anywhere near $30,000. That's some hefty mark-up on those dudes. But until the price comes down, it's not going to happen here."

If you have any interest in building your own windmill system, check out:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.shtml

Our son in law built a couple of their designs, a 6 ft. prop and another with a 10 ft. prop, and is very happy with them. The 6 ft. prop was up and running when Hurricane Ike came through Indiana. That one came through sustained 80 MPH winds with no damage. SIL does have excellent fabrication skills, and I wouldn't reccomend it for just anyone to do from scratch, but their kits seem to be a good way to go for a crafty person. YMMV.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

That 30k price means nothing until I know what equipment your talking about.

Of course your going to pay a big buck for good stuff.......
A Bergey Excel 10k goes for 28k right now . . . .and the tower price is on top of that.

I don't appreciate some one huffing and puffing about wind not being affordable for what they consider a wallyfarts price.
Qualify what your talking about................


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

Jim-mi,
I haven't looked at wind power personally, since we are not in a good location for it, but like any alternative energy form, I'm certain that there are many price points, depending on whether it is DYI from scratch, on up to a high $ turn-key system. 

After looking at several alternatives, I have become convinced that they are most practical when, A) You build it ALL yourself, or, B) You are filthy rich and don't care what it costs. Not being filthy rich, I have to do it myself. No matter, it has great value to me for many reasons, and was affodrable for us.


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

Mickie3 said:


> That was the system I got my 50k+ quote on. Now I see where Lowe's wants over 65k for the same thing.
> 
> Interesting thing is that a law has just been passed where we are moving that will allow only monopole towers to be used, plus the usual restrictions on property lines, buildings, etc. That drives up the price even more.  Oh, well, at least they do get sun in Indiana.


My guess is that Bergey had to team up with Lowes to gain exposure and compete with SWWP. SWWP is a marketing machine and they have been gaining market share at the cost of marginal turbines.

As for the regulations and restrictions. I understand that random development isn't always desirable but the, dare I be so politically incorrect and say extreme environmentalist, seem to shoot themselves in the foot at times. They want green power but sometimes are not willing to pay the price, especially in wind power, and suffer a changed viewshed. Perish the thought of someone installing a wind turbine and disturbing the view or create noise. I realize I am either beating a dead horse, preaching to the choir or losing friends with that comment:bdh:. Monopole towers only? Really?




machinist said:


> Quote:If you have any interest in building your own windmill system, check out:
> 
> http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.shtml


Glad to hear someone has tried the Otherpower. The 10 foot kit is on my list of things to do when I get time :grin:.



machinist said:


> What price is electricity when there ISN'T ANY to be had? At that point, it pays off instantly. :dance:


Absolutely :heh:


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[.....was the turbine you got a quote on a Bergey Excel?...]]]]

No, I think the company was Mariah (I'd have to look to verify, that was several years ago). It's vertical vanes, looks a bit like a barrel instead of a traditional windmill. Supposed to be bird-safe, and shut itself down if wind speeds get too high.

I was interested in selling power back to the electric company, but never got as far as contacting the electric company to see what deal they were offering. Hit the price of the wind system and stopped right there.

Farmers around here used to build water mills out of car generators and set them in the irrigation ditches to power their irrigation pumps.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

machinist said:


> Quote:
> "I got a price for a wind generator, because I have really reliable wind. $30,000.
> 
> That one is hard to understand. There is nothing in that windmill that ought to cost anywhere near $30,000. That's some hefty mark-up on those dudes. But until the price comes down, it's not going to happen here."
> ...



The two Dan's that run the Otherpower site have a very good book out on building a wind turbine per there well proven design:
"Homebrew Wind Power", Dan Fink and Dan Bartman

Wind turbines live in a tough environment, so a design that has not been well proven in actual use is not worth much -- the book gives you one that is well proven with many many in service.

Gary


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

Valleyguy said:


> My guess is that Bergey had to team up with Lowes to gain exposure and compete with SWWP. SWWP is a marketing machine and they have been gaining market share at the cost of marginal turbines.


Have read a lot by Paul Gipe (sp?) and he basically says that most of the low-end equipment is expensive toys and pretty worthless as far as production is concerned. Only people I have seen doing positive reviews on SWWP (and their ilk) hardware is their dealers, they must make a few bucks on them.  



> As for the regulations and restrictions. I understand that random development isn't always desirable but the, dare I be so politically incorrect and say extreme environmentalist, seem to shoot themselves in the foot at times. They want green power but sometimes are not willing to pay the price, especially in wind power, and suffer a changed viewshed. Perish the thought of someone installing a wind turbine and disturbing the view or create noise. I realize I am either beating a dead horse, preaching to the choir or losing friends with that comment:bdh:. Monopole towers only? Really?


Agreed, and I am pretty much of what would be called a "tree-hugger" by many. These folks are adopting some kind of standard "rules" that were adopted by some other county and they had to know what was right, or they wouldn't have been adopted, right? Sheesh! They ought to realize that they cannot have it both ways, pollute the air or put up with a little noise. The logic (if you want to call it that) for the monopoles is so bird will not nest on the towers. Huh? Like there are no trees around? Do we have to cut down all the trees so birds will not nest in them as well? Duh, birds that will fly into the path of whirling blades will do so no matter what, so the monopoles makes no sense, to me, anyhow. 



> Glad to hear someone has tried the Otherpower. The 10 foot kit is on my list of things to do when I get time :grin:.


I would like to build one of their kits as well. Told the wife, she can have the wind-power if I do it all (will buy the blade though as I do not have the equipment to make one that I would want to use, however) as that is the only affordable, for me, way to do it. I will take that one on as a project after the other projects are all completed. hehehe


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

I really like the Otherpower version of setting up a monopole. They use 4 guy points, and put a hinge at the bottom of the pole, aligned with the axis of 2 guy points. That means you can use one of the other guy points with a winch to raise and lower the pole for servicing the windmill. 

They also have been using the idea of NO slip rings to get power to the ground, by simply letting the cable twist as the turbine follows the wind direction. A cable tether is attached to prevent going far enough one direction to damage the power cable. Their experience has been that the cable never tries to "wind up" enough to even need the tether. The lack of slip rings saves mucho $$ and greatly simplifies DIY construction. Also, there are fewer parts to service, since slip rings notoriously want new brushes periodically.

I will have to check the reg's on towers and windmills before proceeding on my place.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

machinist said:


> I really like the Otherpower version of setting up a monopole. They use 4 guy points, and put a hinge at the bottom of the pole, aligned with the axis of 2 guy points. That means you can use one of the other guy points with a winch to raise and lower the pole for servicing the windmill.
> 
> They also have been using the idea of NO slip rings to get power to the ground, by simply letting the cable twist as the turbine follows the wind direction. A cable tether is attached to prevent going far enough one direction to damage the power cable. Their experience has been that the cable never tries to "wind up" enough to even need the tether. The lack of slip rings saves mucho $$ and greatly simplifies DIY construction. Also, there are fewer parts to service, since slip rings notoriously want new brushes periodically.
> 
> I will have to check the reg's on towers and windmills before proceeding on my place.



Do you happen to have a link to that project? I have looked all over that website and cannot find it or have been able to overlook it on numerous attempts.  

That project sounds like a winner to me, as well.


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

Hey Mickie3, 
I'm not machinist but a couple of links
Tower design
http://www.otherpower.com/towers.shtml

and the 17 foot project
http://www.otherpower.com/17page1.html

Hope that is what you are looking for.

As far as SWWP reviews that are positive, yeah. Our Whisper 200 is why we started doing some critical writing about small wind a few years ago. Everything we could find was so...positive about them. We have had numerous failures due to the flimsy, inadequate design. I will say that they would work if you live in a temperate climate and do not have winds over ~30 mph. I'm not telling you anything new though, just preaching to the choir.

As far as the Otherpower and no slip rings, Absolutely. I suspect a burned slip ring is a 50% probable reason that our turbine is laying on the operating table as we speak. Love the simplicity in their approach.

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

ValleyGuy - THANKS for the links. That monopole (using guy wires) looks like something that would be easy to construct and wouldn't have to break the bank. Also, using the pivot to raise the pole, all as one piece, I am assuming, would make it much easier and less costly to accomplish that part of the task as well.

Excellent site, overall, but sometimes a bit hard to find something on it as there is so much on there. 


Another good site I have seen as of late is: http://www.thebackshed.com/. It is an Australian based alternative energy site. Check it out to see what their take on things are.


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

If your looking at a wind generator, you can build your own if you are handy with metal and a welder. Can you scrounge good surplus metal...cheap?
I did the Otherpower design generator ( 17 footer)
Here is my 65 foot tower...it cost me about 1500 bucks to construct. I hand dug the anchor points, and poured the concrete....lots of work.
I used about 50 lbs of welding rods on it:










various stages of construction:









































































Now some free advice: Stay away from wind generators which are roof top mounts, most are a waste of time and money. The higher your tower is, the better the output for a given size generator.

Its a lot of work to build one.
To be quite honest, anything under an 8-10 foot blade size is a toy.


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

Test raising the tower with a grip hoist:
Here i took this picture and told my friend to get away....major safety factor, if that chain fall broke...see where his leg is in relationship to it? Catapult bait!









more test raising with the generator frame on the tower befoer I add the rotors and blades:


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

It was lots of work, but far below 30,000 bucks!


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

wind power said:


> If your looking at a wind generator, you can build your own if you are handy with metal and a welder.  Can you scrounge good surplus metal...cheap?
> I did the Otherpower design generator ( 17 footer)
> Here is my 65 foot tower...it cost me about 1500 bucks to construct. I hand dug the anchor points, and poured the concrete....lots of work.
> I used about 50 lbs of welding rods on it:


Nice installation and thanks for the pics! 

I see that you are using a guyed monopole for the most part, but it looks like its using lattice at the top? How come? What sized pipe did you use for the monopole portion? I am not the world's best welder, but can do it well enough that I will feel safe doing it myself (maybe I should get one of my brothers to come do it for me, though, they are certified in all metals, just older guys like me.) The laws say monopole ONLY, but they do not exclude using guy wires (although you have to have a drawing of what you are using to get the permit for a wind generator.) Looks more doable to roll-my-own than to pay 50+k for a turn-key operation (am a retired EE, so electrical part should be something I can handle.)



> Now some free advice: Stay away from wind generators which are roof top mounts, most are a waste of time and money. The higher your tower is, the better the output for a given size generator.
> 
> Its a lot of work to build one.
> To be quite honest, anything under an 8-10 foot blade size is a toy.


The "roof mount" generator structures are illegal to use under Indiana law, from what I have read. They must have had an engineer look at them and dismiss them as a very lame idea. Also, the county codes say that any pole must be at least 110% of the height of the pole from any building (71.5 feet for a 65 foot pole.) That would rule out the roof mounts as well, but that is county code.

Having done a bit of reading on the topic of wind power generators, the smallish systems look like they would be just fine for charging up small batteries, but not a lot more. 17' - 20' seems more like what I am thinking would be nice to have / use.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

wind power said:


> It was lots of work, but far below 30,000 bucks!



Thanks for the pics and comments. 

Yes, a ton of work, but, being retired, I work cheap.  If I buy a turn-key system (solar or wind), I pay the full amounts, so anything I can do myself, I don't have to worry about rebates on, I get an immediate 100% return on my investment.


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

Hi Mickie,
Its lattice all the way from top to bottom.
The gin pole doing the lifting is also 4icnh sch 40 pipe...probably could have used 3 inch.
Its a little unorthodox looking because it was orginally an "monopole" but guyed.
I use to fly my 11 footer on the interior pole ( 4 inc sch 40 pipe) but when I upgraded it to the 17 footer it was going to need much more strength. ...so I built the lattice work around it, from either 1-1/4- 1-1/2 inch galvanized pipe....fun welding that stuff with a respirator on )
I thionk the other power folks are using 10 inch diameter 10 gage tubing....its about a 
.125 wall thickness
Probably what you're seeing is the tower's lattice work about hlaf way completed in one of the photos....also if you look a bit close you can see a samm figer of a person as I'm doing a test raise.
Also you can see the baldes and the tail from my 11 footer on the ground too.


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

Hi Folks here is how I constructed the tilt/hinge:








The outside piece of pipe is 4 inch sch 80. Inside of this is a piece of 3 inch solid bar stock welded to each piece of upright I-Beam. The two short pieces of pipe are three inch sch40 pipe about 10 inches long...the 4 inch sch 40 gin pole and tower pole slips over these and is welded into position.
You want plenty of "slop" in your hinge, so a half inch or better is good...the last thing you want is it binding up on the hinge when you are lifting the tower.
Many people simply use sch40 pipe everywhere on this tower base hinge...even on the "hinge pin"









Here is a picture of the stator I wound... its about 22 inches in diameter...its for 48 volt, you can go 24 volts, there are just more ends to solder up...the Otherpower folks dont reccomend 12 volts...it might be possible with a bigger gauge wire, but it will be harder to get a good shaped coils from a larger gage. The wire cost about 200 bucks and those spooky strong magnets cost about 400 bucks









Here's a good day wind day, often times gusts would push the needle on the amp meter past 50 amps...with the battery bank hovering at 60 volts and dumping, the generator was putting out about 3000 watts...probably more....my cheap-o ebay meter could only read 50 amps


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## OneCrazyRat (Sep 12, 2007)

Item 1
I trimmed $10 off of my electric bill by moving one wire on my electric hot water tank so that it operates on 110 V, Then I picked up at a cheap price and installed a good quality Intermatic 24 hour timer. I figured I am not home 24 hours a day so why heat the water all day and night.

Item 2
Not yet implemented - I came up with a second Intematic timer and using the Kill-0-Watt device am considering connecting to the refrigerator for similar reasons in thinking how well insulated they are (remembering blackouts and how long a frig will stay cool if not opened).

Item 3
Have you ever noticed how many devices require ANOTHER plug in power adapter to lower the voltage from 110 VAC? This will be a relatively simple project (if implemented) considering the easy access to w110 VAC plug in each room, all joined to a voltage inverter (12VDC - 110VAC), to small battery bank, to a couple of solar panels or a home made wind generator (car alternator and a fan blade). You may be surprised at just how much difference (these seemingly insignificant) adapters weened off your wallet makes.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Part time on frig works....if you like sour milk.BIL did it,its a dud way to save power


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Bump, so I can read it and find it.


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