# WWYD re: trespassers, probably neighbors



## Common Tator

We own a you-pick apple orchard in the mountains. It is surrounded by National Forest. Our closest full time neighbor is a Christian camp. They used to own our ranch, but sold it 19 years ago, at a tidy profit. Before selling, they transplanted 12 apple trees from the orchard over to their place. So it isn't like they don't have apples of heir own. However they sold our ranch to absentee owners. So the employees and guests of this camp continued to treat the place like they own it. Pillage the apple orchard. 

Then we bought the place. Posted no trespassing signs, and started confronting people who ignored the signs. They were first asked not to do that. Then they were told in no uncertain terms to stop it immediately. The staff was instructing the guests to hike over to our place, and we asked them repeatedly to stop that. However we kept finding strangers on the ranch who told us that they were told to hike here.

Then they got large dogs and gave them free run. We didn't know who owned them. We just knew that they were chasing our livestock. I had a lengthy thread here about that. I had to stop there one day on business, and recognized the dogs. I researched state law and notified the camp that if the dogs came back to chase livestock, I would shoot the dogs, and the dogs owners would be liable for any damage or injury caused to our livestock by their dogs. It didn't stop until a short time later when the dogs were lunging at my donkey's throat. I called to tell them I was getting my gun. I didn't have to shoot the dogs, as they ran off when I got close enough yo get a good shot.

Fast forward to today. I have game cam footage of a group hiking in, with empty backpacks and shopping bags, and leaving with them full. And one of the dogs was with them. 

We have owned this place 13 years, and they still ignore the law and do as they please.

Should I confront the camp with the photos, or just turn it over to the sheriff?


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## AngieM2

I think you've been nice enough.
Maybe they will understand if it cost them money.


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## dizzy

I would send them a bill along w/the photos and tell them that this is their last warning. Let them know that they have x number of days to pay and that you do not want to seem them on the property again. Tell them that if they refuse to comply, you will be turning over everything to both your lawyer and the sheriff. 

You have been more the patient w/them. They have apparently forgotten one of the 10 commandments-thou shalt not steal.


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## Steve in PA

I think you know the answer. Christian Camp stealing after being repeatedly told to stop:huh:

Edit: I'd send a registered letter with a copy of the photo to the camp owners AND contact the authorities


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## Brighton

Strong fences make good neighbors!!


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## FarmboyBill

yeah Double Barb around 8in apart.


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## Common Tator

They crawled through three strands of barbed wire to get here.


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## opportunity

I would turn it over to the sheriff but I do not like people taking my things. The police were very good about going after the people I pictured with my game cam and it stopped the problem. I did not ask the police to fine them or charge them unless they get in one of my pictures then it's all over and they know it


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## unregistered41671

Talk to the sheriff and let him talk to them.


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## texican

Print up a couple dozen pages of this: Warning: These Apples Have Been Sprayed With Poison. (What is the spray that was put on Apples years ago, and the food nazi's got bent out of shape over???) Laminate them, and tack them to your fenceposts in the area where your trespassers are approaching from.

Of course, don't poison them... but I think I would get some spray bottles and sacrifice a few bushels of apples, by spraying them with something very bitter tasting, or something like cat urine.

Email the footage to your neighbors, along with a bill for the apples. 10x their market value of course.

Or, carry your footage to the local sheriff and file charges... telling them exactly what you've said here.

Or, buy one of the basic solar fence chargers and have the top wire 'hot'...

If I still didn't get satisfaction after showing them the evidence, I'd show up on their front porch and find something that wasn't nailed down good and start putting it in the back of my truck.......while they're watching. If they balked, I'd ask why balk? I've asked you very nicely to stop stealing from me... figured since it doesn't bother you to steal from me, you'd not mind if I borrowed from you...


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## Common Tator

California law has stricter penalties for trespassing and stealing from a farm than trespassing and/or stealing from other types of properties. Our local sheriff, our friend is the local coordinator for the farm program. If we involve him, they will be fined, and it will be costly. Plus it looks like they took at least $100.00 worth of apples, and I'd like to be compensated. If it was even apples they took. We don't know what is in the bag.


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## CJBegins

I would follow up with a letter to them with pictures, turn it over to law enforcement and add a couple strand of electrified wire to your perimeter. Dumb folks won't know any better.


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## Wolfy-hound

Defintely call in the police. Would you hesitate if they stole a rocking chair off your porch? Came in your house and took the tv or something?

I would probably also ask the media/local paper what they thought of the Christian Camp telling people to come steal from your farm too, but I'm really annoyed by thieves.


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## Stephen in SOKY

You've been a very courteous neighbor and I applaud you for it. Involve law enforcement immediately & have no further communication with them yourself. Sleep well after you've done so, you've done more than most would at attempting to be a good neighbor.


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## Molly Mckee

I would turn copies of everything over to the sheriff. If the church group that owns the camp has a central governing body, I would talk to them. I would also put up electric fence if it was feasible, people are less likely to go through that. I would also put signs up in the orchard explaining that you own the trees and the ranch and they do not have permission to be there, the camp does not have permission to use your ranch or pick your apples. I would finish the sign with "Thou shalt not steal".

There is no excuse for that behavior from anyone, let alone a Christian camp, or one that claims that. I would also talk to the local paper.


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## Pearl B

You have been nice enough, long enough. Crawling under 3 strands of barb wire, its Sherriff time. That's thought out intent, & willingness to act on it. I would say enough.


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## Common Tator

Yeah, bringing empty backpacks and reusable grocery bags was thought out and premeditated too.


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## Common Tator

I am emailing the sheriff the pictures. I'll talk to him tomorrow.


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## Michael W. Smith

What's this talk of "giving them another chance, this is your last warning."????

You have put up with ENOUGH. Send the pictures to the Sheriff and tell him that you want them charged to the FULL extent of the law. Also explain to the Sheriff that you have already visited them and told them not to tell their people to come hiking on your property, but they continue to do so.

You have ALREADY warned them. They have ignored it. Time to get tough and end this once and for all!


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## DSBlack

Your religious neighbors are calling your bluff. They've been warned repeatedly, it is now time to alert the authorities. They are not being rude, inconsiderate, or ignorant. What they are doing is nothing short of trespassing, theft, and possibly destruction of private property. If it has been said before, forgive me, but do you have 'no trespassing' signs posted along your property line? If not, do so immediately. Do not poison your apples or do anything that can be considered malicious, they are in the wrong and you need to give the law the opportunity to take care of the problem before any further action is needed on your part.


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## StrangeRoamer

You've done enough, it is time for the Sheriff to pay them a visit.


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## Common Tator

I emailed the pictures and a note to the sheriff. I will probably hear from him tomorrow.


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## Bellyman

It will be interesting to hear how this plays out!! Please do keep us informed.


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## Common Tator

It will be interesting. In the past, the camp washed their hands of all responsibility. Told us they weren't responsible for he actions of their guests. Even when they were telling them to hike to our place.


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## Pearl B

I was thinking what kind of "guests" go past no-trespassing signs & crawl under barb wire & steal fruit & call it a hike?
I would stop at the no-trespassing signs myself.


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## Molly Mckee

If the camp is Lutheran, I can find out how to go over the heads of the people running it and who to contact.


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## karenp

All my suggestions involve firearms or big mean dogs and would probably get you into trouble.


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## littlebitfarm

I would report it as theft. Think that might mean more than trespassing.


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## 7thswan

Please, copy everything onto Real Paper, has a much better effect over an E-mail.
Hit em with everything You got. No More Mr. Nice Guy. Trespassing is way too tolerated, I've seen many thoughts on it here in the past, appaling at the least.


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## BOOMER IN GA

Hey they got livestock guardian dogs, how about orchard guardian dogs.


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## KatSchultz

Thou shalt not steal.

Sorry you're going through this. This does NOT seem very Christian-like to me whatsoever. I hope they are embarrassed by their actions and apologize, I hope they are also fined.


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## rharper

Good choice on the sheriff. It's gone on long enough, and you gave it an honest effort. It's cop time.

This, Common Tator, is why we pay our taxes, like it or not. We maintain our local law enforcement for a reason, and we have to pay for its upkeep no matter what, so you might as well get out of the way and let them do what we pay them for, when the situation demands it ... as this one clearly does.


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## fishhead

I think you've 'turned enough cheeks' and it's time to prosecute. I really don't think anything less will get through their thick skulls.


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## Grumpy old man

Post signs like these and leave some spent shells laying around where they come thru the fence .


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## fordy

Common Tator said:


> They crawled through three strands of barbed wire to get here.


 
...................I'm wondering WHY you haven't filed a suit against them in Small Claims Court for $$$ with the camera footage as proof of their Tresspass and theft of your apples ? , fordy


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## Common Tator

Not Lutheran. Seventh Day Adventist.


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## trulytricia

After contacting the law I'd paint a big sign and plant it where they cross in saying "Thou Shalt Not Steal'


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## MJsLady

So then treat them as cattle and put a solar power electric panel in and wire your fence. 

Personally by now I would have begun calling the sheriff and possibly walking my place with a shot gun and taking aim yelling get out of here before I shoot.


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## Laura Zone 5

Common Tator said:


> *We own a you-pick apple orchard in the mountains.* It is surrounded by National Forest. Our closest full time neighbor is a Christian camp. They used to own our ranch, but sold it 19 years ago, at a tidy profit. Before selling, they transplanted 12 apple trees from the orchard over to their place. So it isn't like they don't have apples of heir own. However they sold our ranch to absentee owners. So the employees and guests of this camp continued to treat the place like they own it. Pillage the apple orchard.
> 
> *Then we bought the place. Posted no trespassing signs, and started confronting people who ignored the signs. They were first asked not to do that. Then they were told in no uncertain terms to stop it immediately. The staff was instructing the guests to hike over to our place, and we asked them repeatedly to stop that. However we kept finding strangers on the ranch who told us that they were told to hike here.*
> 
> *Then they got large dogs and gave them free run. We didn't know who owned them. We just knew that they were chasing our livestock. I had a lengthy thread here about that. I had to stop there one day on business, and recognized the dogs. I researched state law and notified the camp that if the dogs came back to chase livestock, I would shoot the dogs, and the dogs owners would be liable for any damage or injury caused to our livestock by their dogs. It didn't stop until a short time later when the dogs were lunging at my donkey's throat. I called to tell them I was getting my gun. I didn't have to shoot the dogs, as they ran off when I got close enough yo get a good shot.
> 
> Fast forward to today. I have game cam footage of a group hiking in, with empty backpacks and shopping bags, and leaving with them full. And one of the dogs was with them. *
> 
> We have owned this place 13 years, and they still ignore the law and do as they please.
> *
> Should I confront the camp with the photos, or just turn it over to the sheriff?*


Yes.
Make a copy for the owners of the camp....and then take it to the sheriff. 

Prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.
You have been more than patient.

ETA: Enough. 13 years?
ENOUGH.
Draw your line in the sand.
It does not matter WHO your neighbors are......WHAT they are are thieves, and allow/encourage others to commit theft.
They are inconsiderate, and mock you every time their dogs run free, and strangers pick your apples.
I promise you this: Let one of them fall down on your property and see how FAST YOU GET SUED.

Draw the line, today.
No more Mr. Nice Guy / Gal........


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## Common Tator

According to the date and time stamp on the pictures, they were here during the time my orchard was open for you-pick. There are actually three orchards. There is an upper, middle and lower. I set up my stand between the upper and middle. From there I can see those the orchards and see and hear what people are doing. I was there at the time. We don't open the lower orchard to the public. We sell those apples to other orchards in the area that have a much larger agritourism base. Our pioneer structures are in the lower orchard, and I can't see what people are doing there. I don't want the public around them. I would have probably heard the trespassers talking from where I was, but I was surrounded by paying customers, and they were talking too. The trespassers snuck in to the far end of the lower orchard. I can't see the lower orchard from my stand. 

Edited to add: I won't be firing off a gun when we have customers in the orchard. Bad PR, doncha know. I also won't be putting up any signs about poison in my organic orchard. I won't be coating any apples with any bad tasting substances.


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## Wolf mom

Rule at my 'stead is 3 X and you're out!

I think you've been very nice, patient and sound like the type of person I'd enjoy as a neighbor. 
So, my advice to you is list everything you've written here - with approximate dates then turn it ALL over to the sheriff. They're gong to want as much information as possible. The more you can substantiate your claim the better. Ask them about sort sort of restraining order (on a church run group - ha!). Yes I know the pros & con's of a restraining order, but anything helps to back up what you want. 

Or you can continue being nice and get the same results.


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## geo in mi

Christian is as Christian does. Treat them like the common thieves they are.

geo


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## Maura

Stop talking to them. They know exactly what is going on and are treating you like a doormat. Go to the sheriff, bring photos. If you know where they are coming in, take photos of that, too.

Next time their dog visits your property, make no phone calls, SSS. Although, I'd get the dog into my car and take it to an animal shelter in a different county. If I couldn't get it into the car, SSS.


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## Patchouli

If the camp is affiliated with the 7th Day Adventist Church I would also fire off all of your information to Church headquarters. They should be able to stop this, no Church wants the sort of bad publicity that would come from a news story about them encouraging theft.


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## Limon

If it weren't for the fact it was open to the public and you were in California, I'd recommend setting up some targets in the area with the bulleyes nicely shot out and take some time to practice in that field. Oh, well.

I have to agree with small claims court. File a claim for the maximum amount possible. (Stolen property, damages to fence and grounds, lost time for court, court costs, etc.) On top of the sheriff visiting them, court might put the fear of God - finally - into them.

ETA: Is Captain Dreadlocks running the camp now?


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## Molly Mckee

I think the Seventh Day Adventists have a central governing body, I would start with the largest local church, and find out who controls the camp. A Christian organization should be very upset with members/employees that are behaving this way and should put an end to it quickly. I would do this even if the Sheriff gets it stopped. What they are doing is theft, supported by the church. Not good. And I'm sure someone would really want to know what is going on and the impression their church is making on the public.


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## TedH71

Simple solution. Install hot wires at 3 different places. They won't come back once they get zapped. Make sure it's set high enough to zap a horse. It'll pack a wallop but they won't attempt to do it again.


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## mnn2501

We're waiting to hear what the Sheriff said.


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## Pugnacious

I'm sorry but unless you see the owners or people running it on your property you probably don't have much of a case(unless there is a way to identify the trespassers). I know this from personal experience. I was given permission to hunt a piece of land one time. The land wasn't owned by the person who gave me permission, after all. It cost me a lot of grief and him nothing. He was the only one who lived around there so I wasn't stretching to assume he owned the land and I was young and not smart enough to know to double check. I could tell everyone of you to trespass on my neighbors property but you are ultimately responsible for your own actions. Also, is there a possibility that they are sending them to their own apple trees and they are ending up on your land by mistake?


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## copperkid3

Steve in PA said:


> I think you know the answer. Christian Camp stealing after being repeatedly told to stop:huh:
> tR
> Edit: I'd send a registered letter with a copy of the photo to the camp owners AND contact the authorities





Wolfy-hound said:


> Defintely call in the police. Would you hesitate if they stole a rocking chair off your porch? Came in your house and took the tv or something?
> 
> I would probably also ask the media/local paper what they thought of the Christian Camp telling people to come steal from your farm too, but I'm really annoyed by thieves.





Molly Mckee said:


> I would turn copies of everything over to the sheriff. If the church group that owns the camp has a central governing body, I would talk to them. I would also put up electric fence if it was feasible, people are less likely to go through that. I would also put signs up in the orchard explaining that you own the trees and the ranch and they do not have permission to be there, the camp does not have permission to use your ranch or pick your apples. I would finish the sign with "Thou shalt not steal".
> 
> There is no excuse for that behavior from anyone, let alone a Christian camp, or one that claims that. I would also talk to the local paper.





KatSchultz said:


> Thou shalt not steal.
> 
> Sorry you're going through this. This does NOT seem very Christian-like to me whatsoever. I hope they are embarrassed by their actions and apologize, I hope they are also fined.





geo in mi said:


> Christian is as Christian does. Treat them like the common thieves they are. geo


+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Just because a person, a group or a 'church' camp claims

to be "christian", it does't make it so. Herein is a case in point.

These folks aren't .

The Lord gave us instruction in how to help identify such people.

"You will know them by their fruits.-
Grapes are not gathered from thorn-
bushes-nor figs from thistles, are they "- Matthew 7:14

And yet again, for emphasis in Matthew 7:20 -

"So then, you will-know them by their fruits. "

These folks are thieves . . . plain and simple. 

What you know about them (their character) is 'their' fruits,

which, coincidently, just happen to belong to you! [Pun may possibly be intentional]

Prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law each & every time.


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## unregistered41671

copperkid3 said:


> + + + + + + + + + + + +
> Just because a person, a group or a 'church' camp claims
> 
> to be "christian", it does't make it so. Herein is a case in point.
> 
> These folks aren't .
> 
> The Lord gave us instruction in how to help identify such people.
> 
> "You will know them by their fruits.-
> Grapes are not gathered from thorn-
> bushes-nor figs from thistles, are they "- Matthew 7:14
> 
> And yet again, for emphasis in Matthew 7:20 -
> 
> S"So then, you will-know them by their fruits. "
> 
> These folks are thieves . . . plain and simple.
> 
> What you know about them (their character) is 'their' fruits,
> 
> which, coincidently, just happen to belong to you! [Pun may possibly be intentional]
> 
> Prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law each & every time.


Spot on CC, Spot on.


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## MO_cows

It bothers me that your communication with them seems to have been verbal over all these years?? Making it hard to prove you have repeatedly warned them and brought the problem to their attention. Wish you had sent them a certified letter or two to be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they were informed. 

It seems to make it tougher to deal with because it's a "you pick" orchard and you don't want to scare away your paying customers with electric fences and razor wire and forceful signs, etc. You probably don't want that kind of liability for your business, either. How do you keep it appealing for the paying guests and still make it unappealing for the thieves? A real dilemma. 

Hope the sheriff does a good job for you.


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## CountryWannabe

How about LARGE copies of the photos posted around town saying "Have you seen these thieves?" Or get in touch with the local newspaper and have them put photos in an article discussing the long standing crime wave...

Mary


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## DryHeat

It would seem to be far past the point of sensible to try talking to them again, but possibly you might do so with a camcorder in hand, stating you have it as you turn it on and that you want to document the conversation for possible legal purposes, swinging the cam around to include the surroundings and other people (and dogs) present. Ups the ante on them some and might give you something to show to higher-ups in their church as well as the sheriff, unless taking that action would be invasion of privacy or such in Calif. Written trail with receipt-sign required from here on is needed, too, if the law doesn't get them stopped pronto after all this.

If you confront someone running the camp while a bunch of their patrons are standing around watching, you might get the listeners to thinking as they hear their pious camp-runners lying through their teeth.

Now that people possibly including the camp inhabitants are likely to see those game cam photos, I'd for sure MOVE that camera a distance away and conceal it well, unless there's no way at all the trespassers can mentally trace the angle and now know how to just go there and swipe the camera. too.


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## Common Tator

I want to thank everyone for their responses. This morning Hubby went down to check things out on the trail they entered by. I had originally put 7 No Trespassing signs up. Three had been stolen. One was torn and laying on the ground. 2, which I had affixed to wood, and put them as high up as I could, by backing my ATV up to a tree, standing on it and reaching up as far as I could, were still there. I took photos of them.

I had to make a run to the nearest little berg. I had my iPad, and showed the pictures around to some of my friends there. Nobody recognized most of the trespassers. But two people recognized the very large older lady, as a local physician! What a shocker! I'm told she has a busy practice. One might think that she could have afforded to pay for apples rather than stealing them.

Anyway, I looked her up, and she is affiliated with the Seventh Day Adventist Medical Center. She attended the Seventh a Day Adventist university and did her residency and internship at that same hospital. I believe she and the others parked at the neighboring camp, and hiked over from there.

Whenever I've spoken to the sheriff about trespassers, he always asks if our boundary is marked No Trespassing.

So I sent him another email this morning with the pictures of the signs. I gave him the lady's name and phone number, and told him I wanted to press charges.

He may not be working this weekend, but I expect to hear from him soon. I'll let you all know what he says.


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## unregistered353870

Nice detective work finding a name of one of them! And good for you pressing charges. There's no excuse for their disrespect of your property rights.


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## watcher

*After* you talk to the sheriff take copies of the pics to a lawyer.


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## CocalicoSprings

I would invite all of them over for some apple pie. Then appoint them guardians of the orchard. Then make them stewards of the trees.. Then ask them to fertilize, spray and prune when necessary. Then make them participate in the harvest. ...maybe they can do all the harvesting. After they see how much work it is.. They'll leave the orchard alone.


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## Bellyman

As an SDA, I have no respect for what any of that bunch is doing. They are wrong to be stealing and I will not stand by them as they commit acts of theft. They are not living according to what the Bible teaches or what the church teaches.

I am sorry you are experiencing this from people who should know better. I hope you won't condemn the entire global church organization for the actions of a few who do not represent our beliefs at all in their actions. 

FWIW, there are numerous SDA offshoots as well as the official church, some of which do have some rather "out there" ideas. Whether some of them actually dismiss the commandment not to steal (officially), I do not know as I haven't kept up with the offshoot groups.

I whole-heartedly agree with your decision to pursue this and if sitting on a jury listening to the facts as presented, would award you full damages without question. Stealing is stealing, no matter what label they paint on themselves. I am sorry that they've not only stolen but taken the Lord's name in vain (by labeling themselves as followers of Christ while doing the deeds of the devil). 

Were I in a position to do so, I would compensate you myself, for the loss you have suffered and would also be involved in advocating on your behalf with any local church body that happens to be close by. Sin is sin, no matter how high and mighty the sinner may be. God is no respecter of persons and his law applies to all of us from the greatest to the least. 

(Phew... had to get that off my chest.)


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## plowhand

Well, if your orchard is fenced, If it was mine.....I'd find out how fast who ever it was could run from a nice young Bramha bull...Red Sindhi or cross.....they're the ones that look like ole Satan himself! Post warning sign on your electric fence too.....if Californy law requires it.


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## Common Tator

Thank you Bellyman, I was wondering if their teachings were different from my own biblical understanding and moral compass. Because so many of the SDA folks that I've found in my orchard over the years couldn't grasp the concept that they were stealing or even trespassing.

I never assumed that this branch was an offshoot. I assumed that it is the main group. We are just up the mountain from Loma Linda, and that is a massive SDA hub. And many of the residents of surrounding communities are also SDA. I thank you for your sentiments. I wouldn't accept your money if offered. You have done me no harm.

The thought that has really bothered me about the religious aspect of this is this. I am a Christian. But what if I weren't? What if I were grappling with questions about salvation, and these folks were the one group of Christians that I looked at, not just as examples of the SDA church, but all Christians. In this location, that is a very viable scenario, because they are the biggest contingent around these parts. I would be horrified by the hypocrisy, and avoid all churches and Christians in general. I would be embittered because of the theft and monetary losses, the violation of my rights, the disrespect of my Hubby and I, etc. They really are terrible witnesses of their faith. And I REALLY hate to think of any group with such negativity, especially Christians.


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## Common Tator

CocalicoSprings said:


> I would invite all of them over for some apple pie. Then appoint them guardians of the orchard. Then make them stewards of the trees.. Then ask them to fertilize, spray and prune when necessary. Then make them participate in the harvest. ...maybe they can do all the harvesting. After they see how much work it is.. They'll leave the orchard alone.


They didn't take good care of it when they owned it. I don't think they would do a better job for me than they did for themselves.


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## Pearl B

That's part of what makes me wonder what kind of guests they have. Maybe they are telling the guests they are friends of yours & not worry about the signs & such. Still I would really have to wonder about crawling under the barb wire.
Seems to me when your friends with someone you come through the front door so's to speak. Not past the signs & fence that say get out.


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## Molly Mckee

I might call the doctor's office and talk to her. Of course you will have to tell the receptionist why you want to talk to her. Maybe she can give you some idea of what is going on and why they have decided to use the farm as if it was still theirs. Is it possible the members do not know the land was sold? This is a bizarre way for a group that calls themselves Christian to behave, especially when at least one of them seems to be a respected member of the community.


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## copperkid3

Tatar:
I've been pondering on this awhile and considering 
exactly what makes them so brazen and bold in their thievery. 
When you mentioned that a prominent doctor had been identified as a local,
it occurred to me to ask if you know exactly where the sheriff goes on Saturday mornings?

Something to consider. Make a copy of the tape to give to him. 

Keep the original in a very safe place.


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## Bellyman

I've sent off an email to a friend who's higher up in the organization than myself to see if there's any advice he might have. I'll be interested to hear what he might say.

You are taking action from the legal end locally. I'm poking at the church structure end. Maybe something will happen from both ends. (?) 

I don't know if more specifics would be helpful internally or whether the organization may have some knowledge already. If you feel the desire to forward some of the particulars by PM, I may be able to pass along that info internally, not sure yet. If not, no big deal. I don't know any of them personally and have actually never been to CA at all. But it still ruffles my feathers big time when people act like that while wearing a Christian label, SDA or otherwise. 

FWIW...


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## Common Tator

copperkid3 said:


> Tatar:
> I've been pondering on this awhile and considering exactly why
> it is that makes them so brazen and bold in their thievery.
> When you mentioned that the prominent doctor had been identified,
> it occurred to me to ask you if you know where the sheriff goes on Saturday mornings?
> 
> Something to consider.


I don't know where he goes, but I doubt he goes to an SDA church. The local SDA. Folks are vegetarians, and the a Sheriff is an avid hunter.


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## copperkid3

Common Tator said:


> I don't know where he goes, but I doubt he goes to an SDA church. The local SDA. Folks are vegetarians, and the a Sheriff is an avid hunter.


+ + + +
I know of no restriction that prevents them from hunting.

He could give the meat away . . .

Would certainly check it out to eliminate

that possibility that the camp has built-in protection from prosecution.

Wouldn't hurt to also check on the county prosecutor and judge(s) as well.


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## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> If the camp is affiliated with the 7th Day Adventist Church I would also fire off all of your information to Church headquarters. They should be able to stop this, no Church wants the sort of bad publicity that would come from a news story about them encouraging theft.


 Wow, best answer...


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## Tricky Grama

plowhand said:


> Well, if your orchard is fenced, If it was mine.....I'd find out how fast who ever it was could run from a nice young Bramha bull...Red Sindhi or cross.....they're the ones that look like ole Satan himself! Post warning sign on your electric fence too.....if Californy law requires it.


 Love this, but The Tators shouldn't have to pay the expense of a bull & its lodging/feed/etc.


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## JoePa

Fiist I would see what the sheriff does - if I didn't get any satisfaction I would hire a couple guys to patrol the place - when they see some unauthorized person or people on your land have them confront them and make them leave - if they won't leave I'd have them remove the trespassers - using force if necessary - sounds like you have tried everything else so there isn't much else you can do - except maybe get a lawyer and sue the camp - it's the sheriff's job to arrest any trespassers - you can always call him when you see trespassers on your property - he should come and arrest them - if he doesn't then I'd hire some guys to do the job -


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## am1too

Bellyman said:


> As an SDA, I have no respect for what any of that bunch is doing. They are wrong to be stealing and I will not stand by them as they commit acts of theft. They are not living according to what the Bible teaches or what the church teaches.
> 
> I am sorry you are experiencing this from people who should know better. I hope you won't condemn the entire global church organization for the actions of a few who do not represent our beliefs at all in their actions.
> 
> FWIW, there are numerous SDA offshoots as well as the official church, some of which do have some rather "out there" ideas. Whether some of them actually dismiss the commandment not to steal (officially), I do not know as I haven't kept up with the offshoot groups.
> 
> I whole-heartedly agree with your decision to pursue this and if sitting on a jury listening to the facts as presented, would award you full damages without question. Stealing is stealing, no matter what label they paint on themselves. I am sorry that they've not only stolen but taken the Lord's name in vain (by labeling themselves as followers of Christ while doing the deeds of the devil).
> 
> Were I in a position to do so, I would compensate you myself, for the loss you have suffered and would also be involved in advocating on your behalf with any local church body that happens to be close by. Sin is sin, no matter how high and mighty the sinner may be. God is no respecter of persons and his law applies to all of us from the greatest to the least.
> 
> (Phew... had to get that off my chest.)


I've been debating the SDA folks for over 5 years. They have no respect for the rules of a forum. They repeated lie and falsely accuse to the point of legal slander. They never apologize or change their behavior. They have no respect from me. They even refuse to identify themselves as SDA. Problem is their presentation identifies and betrays them just like Peter's speech pattern at Jesus' mock trial.

My SDA neighbor has tried for 13 years to convert me. It came to the point I had to tell him not to come back to my property. I don't want them as neighbors.


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## Bellyman

am1too said:


> I've been debating the SDA folks for over 5 years. They have no respect for the rules of a forum. They repeated lie and falsely accuse to the point of legal slander. They never apologize or change their behavior. They have no respect from me. They even refuse to identify themselves as SDA. Problem is their presentation identifies and betrays them just like Peter's speech pattern at Jesus' mock trial.
> 
> My SDA neighbor has tried for 13 years to convert me. It came to the point I had to tell him not to come back to my property. I don't want them as neighbors.


Not all SDAs are created equal, nor are Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, etc., etc.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with an SDA. I've had some bad experiences with numerous of other faiths and don't hold it against the group. It's usually the individuals, mostly unintentionally, that offend.

Personally, I desire to live according to the Bible the best way I can. I desire to live as Christ would have me to. I don't believe in badgering people with my religion and am also offended when others do that to me. (And yes, that has even been other SDAs on a few occasions.) 

Not a whole lot more I can say. I can't defend bad behavior by others. Doesn't mean I'll throw out my faith, though.

Peace.


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## Patchouli

Tricky Grama said:


> Love this, but The Tators shouldn't have to pay the expense of a bull & its lodging/feed/etc.


Yeah I bet a bull would eat his way through a whole lot more apples than the thieves!


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## Lisa in WA

Tricky Grama said:


> Love this, but The Tators shouldn't have to pay the expense of a bull & its lodging/feed/etc.


Not to mention the fact that I thing CT has lost a horse in the past from someone trespassing and leaving a gate open. Did you ever find that horse, CT?


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## karenp

Could you make up "wanted" style posters with the picture and put them around town?


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## Lisa in WA

I think I mentioned once before the security cameras that we have that are activated by motion and send messages to our cell phones or email. But you have to have internet service there to use them. At least if you were there and they trespassed you could intercept them immediately. 
It's kind of impressive, they nerve they had...coming in even while you were there on the premises.


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## Common Tator

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Not to mention the fact that I thing CT has lost a horse in the past from someone trespassing and leaving a gate open. Did you ever find that horse, CT?


We never saw her again. I spent two days trying to track her, and never saw a single hoof print outside our property. She knows where the nearest water outside the property is. A nice, clear water creek. She would have headed straight there. 

My theory is that she must have been shot. She just wasn't a nice enough horse to risk stealing. She was ornery and very skinny. But her chestnut color was exactly the same as a bear that I had seen on the property. I wonder if the guy that cut the chain on our gate, was a bear hunter. She might have been shot, either on accident, or on purpose. Some people do like horse meat.


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## Common Tator

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I think I mentioned once before the security cameras that we have that are activated by motion and send messages to our cell phones or email. But you have to have internet service there to use them. At least if you were there and they trespassed you could intercept them immediately.
> It's kind of impressive, they nerve they had...coming in even while you were there on the premises.


I would love to have these. They don't offer DSL up here. We have a wireless hotspot that we use here for Internet. You have to be within 50 feet to get a signal. This end of the property where these folks entered is between 1/4 and 1/3 of a mile from the house.


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## Echoesechos

Maybe place a sign as close to their entrance as you can stating all Apple thieves will be prosecuted... Also place an ad in the local newspaper asking the public for help identifying these Apple thieves. Don't let on you know who the Dr. Is. The embarrassment factor would let her/them know you have pictures.


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## Common Tator

I posted this on the Ranch's Facebook page this morning.
"I want to talk about supporting your local farmers. If you want them to stay in business, you have to buy from them. 

Most jobs don't live or die at the mercy of the weather. A bad storm can be cause to stay inside all day for most people. For a farmer, it can ruin months of hard work. Two years in a row, we lost our entire crop because our trees went into bloom, and then we had a snow storm. That killed the delicate blossoms. Our orchard didn't earn anything for those two years, 2010 & 2011. 

This year, we had an extended heat wave, that caused half of our crop to fall out of the trees before we could open. We are now sold out of what few apples we had left. In a good year, we should still have apples into November. 

When we are able to open, we don't get rich. We earn enough to help defray SOME of the costs of owning the ranch. But not nearly all of the costs. The ranch is a labor of love for us.

One day, while I was at my stand, helping customers in one part of the orchard, a group hiked in to another part of the ranch that isn't visible from where I was. They came prepared, with bags and backpacks. They filled them with apples, and snuck back out without paying. If I did hear their voices, I thought it was my paying customers talking.

I have photographs of them. I showed the photos to locals, and got the name of one of the individuals. I turned the photos over to he Sheriff, and told him I want to press charges.

The state of California recognizes that thefts from farms jeopardize our vital food supply. Farmers can't be in all places on their farm at all times, so new programs have been developed to help protect farmers. And stricter penalties were enacted for farm thefts.

The people reading this have liked Stetson Creek Ranch's page. Most have been customers, and some come back year after year. Thank you so much! Your support helps to kept us going! 

But for those who want to enjoy the fruits of our labor, without paying, technology has changed. You will not only end up paying for the fruit you steal, but will have to pay penalties, and there will be a record of it. Plus, the people who have seen the pictures know why I was asking about them. People who know you, members of your community? Was it worth it?"



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## JoePa

Well OP - you got a lot of suggestions - my unbiased opinion is that JoePa's suggestion was the best - eep:


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## Maura

Well, they have been forewarned. My vote would be for big dogs, but going to court works too.


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## John_Canada

Always start with police help because if something unfortunate happens later down the road, you are on record as taking civil steps first.

Also, I would place a sign, apples have been sprayed with toxic DDT or something to that effect. Seriously tho, the problem is two fold (trespassing and stealing) but originates from the trespassing so solve that with the police. The cam was a good idea for court if it comes to that.


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## BroManDan

Man.. you are a lot more patient and tolerant that I am. 
The law is the law. Trespassing and stealing is against the law.
It is the job of the police to enforce the law.
You don't have to deal with these people at all. Let the police deal with them.

I have 10 acres and a similar situation where I cannot see or hear what is going on on the perimeter. The cameras are a great idea. An idea that I will be adopting as soon as I move out to my land is trip-wire alarms. Trip wires can be hidden in underbrush and are not strong enough to actually "trip" anyone, but can rigged to set off an alarm.. like an air horn.
Maybe something like this.. [ame]http://youtu.be/Vt_ZATda2XU[/ame]


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## SteveD(TX)

Those alarms would probably go off every time some critter such as a raccoon, skunk, possum, or other animal happened to stroll by. And you can't expect the police to solve your problems. Get the evidence on your own, turn it over to the police or file suit. And 3 stands isn't much to stop anyone. I would turn it into five strands and definitely charge it to make it unpleasant for anyone to cross, like someone said. Good luck and don't take this behavior!


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## BroManDan

Negative post. 

You would need to apply some thought of your own to make it work for you. Example: Place the trip wire higher up off of the ground so small animals do not trip it.

1) You cant expect the police to solve your problems 2) Turn evidence over to police. These two statements are contradictory.

Yes, collect the evidence and turn it over to the police. That is the solution.
The trip wire solution does 2 things. 1) Alerts you to an intruder. 2) Alerts intruder that they are detected.


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## oneokie

John_Canada said:


> Also, I would place a sign, apples have been sprayed with toxic DDT or something to that effect.


Very bad idea. 
Old tale: Farmer was having trouble with people stealing his watermelons. He placed a sign in the field stating that one of the watermelons had had posion injected into it. Next morning his sign had been edited to say that 2 watermelons had been posioned. He had to destroy the entire crop.


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## Bellyman

I won't say too much here but just wanted to let you all know that inquires are being made within the camp's organization. The camp director should be coming under some scrutiny and his boss is being involved. The fact that local law enforcement is now involved is good and might cause those higher in the organization to take particular notice and do something internally to rectify the problem.

I know, I'm over 2000 miles away and had never heard of Common Tater before but something in this thread pushed my buttons. It's not right what's happening and what has been happening for a long time and it's one time when I think maybe, just maybe, there's a tiny chance that I can actually do something to help. 

It's gonna take a few days to work through the channels but please know that it has begun on the other end. I can't guarantee how those higher ups will respond. I don't know them and they don't know me. But at least we who think this needs to be fixed will be heard as we're making "noise".

Sorry I can't offer anything more just yet. It's not forgotten. And I'm trying, along with a few others who have taken an interest.


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## Common Tator

Thank you all for your responses. And Bellyman, thank you for looking into this for me. When we bought this ranch, we set out to make friends with all of our neighbors. Or at least be friendly strangers. There is supposed to be give and take in relationships. With this one neighbor, it has been take and get taken.



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## SteveD(TX)

BroManDan said:


> Negative post.
> 
> You would need to apply some thought of your own to make it work for you. Example: Place the trip wire higher up off of the ground so small animals do not trip it.
> 
> 1) You cant expect the police to solve your problems 2) Turn evidence over to police. These two statements are contradictory.
> 
> Yes, collect the evidence and turn it over to the police. That is the solution.
> The trip wire solution does 2 things. 1) Alerts you to an intruder. 2) Alerts intruder that they are detected.


Not contradictory at all. It certainly won't hurt to turn the evidence over, but expecting them to be there and protect you or that they can solve all of the problems. Nope.

"it is the job of police to enforce the law"???? You honestly expect them to stake out the place and catch trespassers?

Get real.

CT you have been given lots of advice, but do NOT count on the police to catch trespassers. And trip wires set above the ground will not work, believe me. I think you have more common sense than that. Good luck and let us know what happens.


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## am1too

Bellyman said:


> Not all SDAs are created equal, nor are Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, etc., etc.
> 
> I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with an SDA. I've had some bad experiences with numerous of other faiths and don't hold it against the group. It's usually the individuals, mostly unintentionally, that offend.
> 
> Personally, I desire to live according to the Bible the best way I can. I desire to live as Christ would have me to. I don't believe in badgering people with my religion and am also offended when others do that to me. (And yes, that has even been other SDAs on a few occasions.)
> 
> Not a whole lot more I can say. I can't defend bad behavior by others. Doesn't mean I'll throw out my faith, though.
> 
> Peace.


One very interesting thing to me is I debate them from around the globe via the net and find no difference. Maybe on an outside chance there is a rare exception. And of course I'm always speaking to the exception. I'll give special attention to your post when I see them not that I'll respond.


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## Common Tator

I don't expect the Sheriff to stake the place out. But we do allow him to hunt the property, so he may be there anyway. 

I called and asked if he had seen the emails. He is on vacation. I would rather wait for our friend, the local Sheriff that is assigned to the area and knows everyone, than to turn it over to someone from out of area. He knows us, he probably knows the lady identified, and probably knows the other members of the party too. But he doesn't need to stake the place out. I'm hoping that word will get out locally that we are enforcing the law on trespassing and theft.

Since we know who one member of the party is already, I've given her name and phone number to the Sheriff.

Also, there is a farm theft task force that he is trained on, and at least locally, he is in charge of the program, I think.

99% of thefts by people hiking in that end if the property will dry up when our neighboring camp gets the word out to their campers that they aren't to sneak over and steal from us. Remember, that a big part of our problem is that employees if the camp were actually sending their campers over. Another big part was that their campers who have gone to our ranch for many years to pick apples, had been coming over to our ranch since the SDA organization owned it. And never changed their behavior when it was sold.

And a big part of the problem is that I talked to camp management a number of times over the years, asking them to tell their campers that the ranch had been sold, and please refrain from hiking over there. To my knowledge, they never spoke to their campers to tell them not to hike over. I never got a commitment from anyone at the camp that they would notify their campers. I had written and printed up a notice which I asked them to put on a bulletin board for their campers to see. I don't know if it was ever displayed. I made up flyers for the campers, telling them that we were open You-pick? It had a map to our place, by road, I listed our hours of operation, and offered them a 10% discount if they told me they were from the camp. The employee (guy in charge) I spoke with handed the flyers back and told me they wouldn't be interested In my apples if they had to pay for them.....and that is the one truth that is at the root of this whole problem.

I was trying to do something nice to get them to change their approach, but my offer of a discount was rejected because it meant they had to pay.

I don't want anyone arrested. I don't necessarily want anyone publicly disgraced. I want the members of this large organization to either pay for their fruit just like everyone else, or leave us alone.

Bellyman is going through the organization from within, to see if someone higher in the SDA organization can get the attention of the folks running the camp. I appreciate that, and hope that it will work. But if it doesn't, I've provided the Sheriff with the photos, and the name of one of the most recent group. I think that his job will involve paperwork and issuing a citation. I don't think it involves placing anyone under arrest and reading them their rights, but once word gets out that there are consequences for stealing from us, that the stealing has given the camp, and the organization a bad name, that people are having to pay penalties, etc. the attitudes over there will change. Even if they decide they hate my guts and will never buy my apples because if it, that is an improvement over them not only not buying, but stealing from us.

After the Sheriff had taken whatever action he will take, I will send a letter of demand yo the good doctor, giving her 30 days to pay up, or I'll sue in small claims court. California requires a thirty nay notice before they let you file the small claims action. And when word gets out, we will get yo sell our apples, rather than having them stolen.



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## unregistered41671

Tator, you could hire Captain Dreadlocks as a security guard.

Where is your sense of adventure?


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## unregistered353870

> After the Sheriff had taken whatever action he will take, I will send a letter of demand yo the good doctor, giving her 30 days to pay up, or I'll sue in small claims court.


Do you plan to demand compensation for the entire amount the group took, or only what she personally took?

Just curious...I think I would demand it all, and the law would probably support you on that. If she thinks that's unfair she can be responsible for collecting from everyone else involved.


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## Common Tator

I plan to make a point of the ongoing theft problem, but for this group, charge for what I can see that they personally took.


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## Common Tator

jtbrandt said:


> Do you plan to demand compensation for the entire amount the group took, or only what she personally took?
> 
> Just curious...I think I would demand it all, and the law would probably support you on that. If she thinks that's unfair she can be responsible for collecting from everyone else involved.


I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. The answer is yes, I will be asking her to pay for the apples that this group took. She herself wasn't carrying any. This lady is quite obese, and looks like she overtaxed herself quite a bit by hiking in. She looks to be in her fifties. The others in the group are young adults, that may be her adult children. They are carrying the apples. And a little girl, who is close to her, never more than a few feet away, might be a granddaughter. 

When I send the letter, I will ask for the names of the others, but I would be stunned if she complies. In fact, I would be stunned if she doesn't just pay the bill.

So here is another question:

How do I determine how much to ask? Here is how I charge for my apples.

Any of.the very few apple orchards in Southern California sell 1/4 peck bags, and possibly 1/2 peck bags. No larger. You can't walk into one of them and buy a large quantity. They also charge an entrance fee, per person to get into the orchard. They escort you into the orchard and tell you which tree you may pick from. And they stand there and supervise. It is all grossly expensive, and to my way of thinking, quite anal. And this would also make a family outing to pick apples far less enjoyable.

Those orchards are about a 45 minute drive from our ranch. We are a small orchard out in the boonies, without real competition, surrounded by National Forest. So while I drive to the other apple community before I open to see what they are charging, chat, catch up on news, etc. I do charge slightly less for the 1/4 peck and 1/2 peck bags than they do, but pretty close in my by volume pricing. The people who buy those tiny amounts are just doing the agritourism thing. In the fall, they pick a small bag. Enough for a few fresh apples, or a pie. But I also sell Pecks, and half bushels, and bushels. And the larger amounts are for folks like us, who like to can up applesauce, apple butter, make pies, dehydrate, and have fresh apples for eating. I have no basis for comparison on how to price those, so I graduated my pricing so that when they buy the larger amounts, they get a better deal.

My pricing this year was:

1/4 Peck $7, 1/2 Peck $12, 1 Peck, $17, 1/2 Bushel, $25, and one bushel, $40. 

Some of my HT friends from areas where you-pick orchards are plentiful, are probably apoplectic over these prices. But those orchards probably weren't purchased at Southern California real estate prices. They don't deal with California taxation and regulation. They probably don't have the cost of living prices that we deal with every day, and the cost of doing business issues and costs thst we have. This year, 25% of what we earned will go just to pay for our liability insurance, without which, we couldn't open at all. I have the very expensive 1/4 peck, 1/2 peck, 1 peck and half bushel bags. They account for about 1/20th of what we earnin income.

That, plus, we are a one of a kind place. The views are absolutely stunning! Folks come here, have a great time picking organic apples. Many bring picnic lunches and make a day of it. They can have a fabulous day with the family, pick a bushel of apples, have a picnic lunch at the table we have set up, and do all this for less than they would spend to take that same brood to the movies. At $40 per bushel, the apples are less than they would spend at the grocery store. Less than a dollar a pound.

Today I was in a Wal Mart, and the cheapest apples they had were Red delicious, at $1.49 per pound. There weren't organic, like my apples. We don't even know what year those Red Deicious were harvested. They can keep for up to 3 years in cold storage. By comparison, my apples are fresh off the 101 year old trees, fresh, tasty. Organic, and fabulous! Old varieties, that my customers remember from their childhood. Red delicious are some of the least flavorful apples there are. The better tasting varieties were more expensive at both the grocery store, and at the other apple orchards in So. Cal. And this was Wal Mart. Not a Mothers Market, or some other store thst charges a great deal of money for organic yuppy chow.

Let's say I saw these folks hefting out approximately a bushel. If a paying customer were to come to me and ask for a bushel, pay for it at that time, they would pay $40. However if I were to sell thst same volume of apples to 16 customers, who bought 1/4 peck bags, and paid for them at that time, I would receive $112 for the same bushel.

If I take the good doctor to small claims court, do I charge her the same price as the honest customer who bought a bushel? Or do I charge her the higher amount that would have received from a different group of customers who bought the smaller bags?

Then there is the other issues related to trying to find out who my trespassers/ thieves were. There was a trip into town, 14 miles round trip, at least an hour for that trip and time asking around to determine who was pictured. Time spent preparing the email to the Sheriff, getting the pictures, checking the trail to see if it was still properly marked, etc. I will also spend time carefully wording a letter to her. Of course I will ask for my actual costs to have her served. If I do have to file in small claims court. And those costs would also be included. I'll add up my time at the end.

I'm trying to figure out what I should ask for. This is very different than a transaction with a customer who presents themselves and tells me what they want to buy. Pays, gets the pre-measured bag borrows a long handled picker, picks their apples and leaves. Most folks are there for half an hour or less. This has occupied a LOT of time and energy.

What would you ask for in small claims court?


----------



## copperkid3

Thieves get no 'special' consideration . . . they are after all . . . thieves!

Charge them at the higher rate or whatever your normal "customer" would purchase.

Do you sell more 1/4 pecks than bushels? Than it would make good sense 

(and in this case dollars and cents) to charge at the higher rate since you have lost

those potential sales from the thieves who emptied your inventory before you could sell it.

Of course, you are in California and tales of how your justice system 'works' are legend

throughout the rest of the country. Personally, I'd do a comparison for EVERYTHING 

(apples, labor, time spent & running this all down) put it together professionally 

and present it to the court seeking full compensation. Let the other side object.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Who knows . . . maybe the court 

will decide to make an example out of them and you win big time. 

If not, then it was to be expected and life goes on.

ETA: Just because the court decides in your favor, 
doesn't necessarily mean that you've won anything.
There is still the big question of how to collect.
Might be a good time to call up pre-paid legal 
and pick their brains on this entire matter.


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## Common Tator

Copperkid3, I sell many more 1/4 peck bags than bushels. So I'll ask for that price.


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## Common Tator

Here is an interesting article about farm thefts in California, from the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/us/22crime.html?_r=0


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## MOgal

DH put up battery powered monitors along our driveway and plans to do the same later with two entrances to the farm that are out of sight of the house. The receiver units are in the house but could just as easily be at your stand. One of the monitors even has a hand held receiver that I carry when I'm in the garden or barn so I will know someone is approaching. These work over a radius of a few miles so might be helpful since each monitor can be programed with its own tone that tells you where the incursion is occurring.

You definitely have been far too patient. I think I would send a copy of your info to CA's medical licensing board because the woman doctor can be stripped of her credentials if she's prosecuted of theft, most assuredly if she's convicted. And she's no lady, don't give her that much credit.

Good luck getting a good resolution.


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## Common Tator

MOgal, could you please post a link for the cameras?


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## Patchouli

Common Tator said:


> I don't expect the Sheriff to stake the place out. But we do allow him to hunt the property, so he may be there anyway.
> 
> I called and asked if he had seen the emails. He is on vacation. I would rather wait for our friend, the local Sheriff that is assigned to the area and knows everyone, than to turn it over to someone from out of area. He knows us, he probably knows the lady identified, and probably knows the other members of the party too. But he doesn't need to stake the place out. I'm hoping that word will get out locally that we are enforcing the law on trespassing and theft.
> 
> Since we know who one member of the party is already, I've given her name and phone number to the Sheriff.
> 
> Also, there is a farm theft task force that he is trained on, and at least locally, he is in charge of the program, I think.
> 
> 99% of thefts by people hiking in that end if the property will dry up when our neighboring camp gets the word out to their campers that they aren't to sneak over and steal from us. Remember, that a big part of our problem is that employees if the camp were actually sending their campers over. Another big part was that their campers who have gone to our ranch for many years to pick apples, had been coming over to our ranch since the SDA organization owned it. And never changed their behavior when it was sold.
> 
> And a big part of the problem is that I talked to camp management a number of times over the years, asking them to tell their campers that the ranch had been sold, and please refrain from hiking over there. To my knowledge, they never spoke to their campers to tell them not to hike over. I never got a commitment from anyone at the camp that they would notify their campers. I had written and printed up a notice which I asked them to put on a bulletin board for their campers to see. I don't know if it was ever displayed. I made up flyers for the campers, telling them that we were open You-pick? It had a map to our place, by road, I listed our hours of operation, and offered them a 10% discount if they told me they were from the camp. The employee (guy in charge) I spoke with handed the flyers back and told me they wouldn't be interested In my apples if they had to pay for them.....and that is the one truth that is at the root of this whole problem.
> 
> I was trying to do something nice to get them to change their approach, but my offer of a discount was rejected because it meant they had to pay.
> 
> I don't want anyone arrested. I don't necessarily want anyone publicly disgraced. I want the members of this large organization to either pay for their fruit just like everyone else, or leave us alone.
> 
> Bellyman is going through the organization from within, to see if someone higher in the SDA organization can get the attention of the folks running the camp. I appreciate that, and hope that it will work. But if it doesn't, I've provided the Sheriff with the photos, and the name of one of the most recent group. I think that his job will involve paperwork and issuing a citation. I don't think it involves placing anyone under arrest and reading them their rights, but once word gets out that there are consequences for stealing from us, that the stealing has given the camp, and the organization a bad name, that people are having to pay penalties, etc. the attitudes over there will change. Even if they decide they hate my guts and will never buy my apples because if it, that is an improvement over them not only not buying, but stealing from us.
> 
> After the Sheriff had taken whatever action he will take, I will send a letter of demand yo the good doctor, giving her 30 days to pay up, or I'll sue in small claims court. California requires a thirty nay notice before they let you file the small claims action. And when word gets out, we will get yo sell our apples, rather than having them stolen.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today


Did you buy the ranch from them or from someone who bought it from them? I just got to wondering if the original buyer didn't make a deal with them to let them still come and get apples if they wanted since it was originally their orchard?


----------



## wottahuzzee

Common Tator said:


> Copperkid3, I sell many more 1/4 peck bags than bushels. So I'll ask for that price.


Seems like that would be fair. After all, they carried the apples out in bags, not bushels. You might say they set the price.


----------



## copperkid3

Patchouli said:


> Did you buy the ranch from them or from someone who bought it from them? I just got to wondering if the original buyer didn't make a deal with them to let them still come and get apples if they wanted since it was originally their orchard?


+ + + + + + + + +
Oral agreement/arrangements aren't worth the paper they weren't written upon!:bash:

Would you "just take my word" if I offered (verbally), all the oil, gas and mineral rights to a

piece of property that I have for sale in the middle of the Marcellus oil shale reserve?

I firmly believe that you would INSIST that your lawyer put such a clause in writing, in the contract.


So far as we can tell, there has been no evidence trotted out from the camp, of any such 'promise'.


----------



## Common Tator

Patchouli said:


> Did you buy the ranch from them or from someone who bought it from them? I just got to wondering if the original buyer didn't make a deal with them to let them still come and get apples if they wanted since it was originally their orchard?


They sold it to a corporation who intended to bulldoze the orchard and pioneer structures. They intended to build a conference center to house 500 people. Since the apple trees were going to be destroyed, there was no arrangement to allow anyone to pick apples from the trees which were going to be destroyed.

The camp knew that the trees were going to be destroyed, so before the transaction was completed, they dug up 12 of the nicest trees, and transported them to the camp and planted them there. 

One of the reasons that the conference center was never built, was that part of the zoning requirements was a secondary exit from the ranch. Due to terrain, there was only one option. The old pioneer road out the bottom of the property. The buyers of the ranch approached the camp, ie. The sellers, and asked if the secondary exit could be down the pioneer road as far as the camp, then through the camp to the highway. The camp said no. I believe lawyers were involved and as described to me, it was ugly. The owners of the ranch and he camp were hostile toward each other at that point. Anyway, plans for the conference center were scrapped, and the place sat vacant for several years, until Hubby and I found it, and bought it.

So no, there was no agreement to allow camp people come over to pick apples.


----------



## Patchouli

Common Tator said:


> They sold it to a corporation who intended to bulldoze the orchard and pioneer structures. They intended to build a conference center to house 500 people. Since the apple trees wet going to be destroyed, there was no arrangement to allow anyone to pick apples from the trees which were going to be destroyed.
> 
> The camp knew that the trees were going yo be destroyed, so before the transaction was completed, they dug up 12 of the nicest trees, and transported them to the camp and planted them there.
> 
> One of the reasons that the conference center was never built, was that part of the zoning requirements was a secondary exit from the ranch. Due to terrain, there was oly one option. The old pioneer road out the bottom of the property. The buyers of the ranch approached the camp, ie. The sellers, and asked if the secondary exit could be down the pioneer road as far as the camp, then through the camp to the highway. The camp said no. I believe lawyers were involved and as described to me, it was ugly. The owners of the ranch and he camp were hostile toward each other at that point. Anyway, plans for the conference center were scrapped, and the place sat vacant for several years, until Hubby and I found it, and bought it.
> 
> So no, there was no agreement to allow camp people come over to pick apples.


Sounds like they have been contentious since the get go then. Well since they have no reason whatsoever to think they should be able to pick apples there I am sorry they are being so horrible.


----------



## Patchouli

copperkid3 said:


> + + + + + + + + +
> Oral agreement/arrangements aren't worth the paper they weren't written upon!:bash:
> 
> Would you "just take my word" if I offered (verbally), all the oil, gas and mineral rights to a
> 
> piece of property that I have for sale in the middle of the Marcellus oil shale reserve?
> 
> I firmly believe that you would INSIST that your lawyer put such a clause in writing, in the contract.
> 
> 
> So far as we can tell, there has been no evidence trotted out from the camp, of any such 'promise'.


I wasn't looking for a right I was looking for a reason. And yes I would take your word and no I don't feel a need to involve a lawyer and it has worked for me my whole life.


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## unregistered353870

Any agreement with the previous owners wouldn't matter anyway...it's been many years and the camp has been informed many times that any such agreements (if they ever existed) are no longer in effect.

In the demand letter, I would definitely ask for the highest price. You might also add on a land use fee. Not sure if that could be enforced in small claims court, but it's worth a try and would cover some of the apples they've stolen without being caught.

Maybe for the future post signs along the fence announcing a $500 per person per entry "back entrance fee" that will be charged to anyone not entering through the official entrance during normal business hours.


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## MOgal

CT, since DH researched and purchased the unit, I asked him to respond to your question. Feel free to pm if you wish. Here's his answer.

The alarms are made by Dakotalert.com but you can buy them from other sources. I got mine from Homesecuritystore.com. They have different kinds but the one you would want is called MURS since it has a longer range than the others, up to 2 miles. You can get the transmitter with a handheld receiver or a desk top receiver. The handheld may be best if you are out of the house. The problem with the infrared sensors is that they signal when anything crosses the beam from rabbits to humans. They do have sensitivity controls but you would have to experiment with them to get the setting correct. Each receiver can track up to 4 or 5 transmitters so you can have extra sensors around your place. Each sensor can be set up for a different zone and the receiver will tell you which zone was tripped.


----------



## Common Tator

I want to add, we had a title search done. Other than a power company easement, no other access was granted to anyone. A previous owner can't encumber future owners on an oral agreement, although we've had others try to argue this to us. Between us and the highway, there are Forest Service lease land cabins. Some owned by the descendants of the people who built the cabin. Several of them told us that it was okay for them to sneak in and pick our apples, because their ancestors knew the folks who planted the orchard in 1912. The big difference is that the cabin owners would sneak in on the road, and had to come right past the house. We could see them and hear them. None of them have snuck in for many years now. Some come when we are open and buy apples though. But the folks from the camp sneak in to the far end of the ranch, and unless they make a great deal of noise, or come much closer, or we are down there when they enter, we don't usually know they are there.


----------



## fordy

Common Tator said:


> I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. The answer is yes, I will be asking her to pay for the apples that this group took. She herself wasn't carrying any. This lady is quite obese, and looks like she overtaxed herself quite a bit by hiking in. She looks to be in her fifties. The others in the group are young adults, that may be her adult children. They are carrying the apples. And a little girl, who is close to her, never more than a few feet away, might be a granddaughter.
> 
> When I send the letter, I will ask for the names of the others, but I would be stunned if she complies. In fact, I would be stunned if she doesn't just pay the bill.
> 
> So here is another question:
> 
> How do I determine how much to ask? Here is how I charge for my apples.
> 
> Any of.the very few apple orchards in Southern California sell 1/4 peck bags, and possibly 1/2 peck bags. No larger. You can't walk into one of them and buy a large quantity. They also charge an entrance fee, per person to get into the orchard. They escort you into the orchard and tell you which tree you may pick from. And they stand there and supervise. It is all grossly expensive, and to my way of thinking, quite anal. And this would also make a family outing to pick apples far less enjoyable.
> 
> Those orchards are about a 45 minute drive from our ranch. We are a small orchard out in the boonies, without real competition, surrounded by National Forest. So while I drive to the other apple community before I open to see what they are charging, chat, catch up on news, etc. I do charge slightly less for the 1/4 peck and 1/2 peck bags than they do, but pretty close in my by volume pricing. The people who buy those tiny amounts are just doing the agritourism thing. In the fall, they pick a small bag. Enough for a few fresh apples, or a pie. But I also sell Pecks, and half bushels, and bushels. And the larger amounts are for folks like us, who like to can up applesauce, apple butter, make pies, dehydrate, and have fresh apples for eating. I have no basis for comparison on how to price those, so I graduated my pricing so that when they buy the larger amounts, they get a better deal.
> 
> My pricing this year was:
> 
> 1/4 Peck $7, 1/2 Peck $12, 1 Peck, $17, 1/2 Bushel, $25, and one bushel, $40.
> 
> Some of my HT friends from areas where you-pick orchards are plentiful, are probably apoplectic over these prices. But those orchards probably weren't purchased at Southern California real estate prices. They don't deal with California taxation and regulation. They probably don't have the cost of living prices that we deal with every day, and the cost of doing business issues and costs thst we have. This year, 25% of what we earned will go just to pay for our liability insurance, without which, we couldn't open at all. I have the very expensive 1/4 peck, 1/2 peck, 1 peck and half bushel bags. They account for about 1/20th of what we earnin income.
> 
> That, plus, we are a one of a kind place. The views are absolutely stunning! Folks come here, have a great time picking organic apples. Many bring picnic lunches and make a day of it. They can have a fabulous day with the family, pick a bushel of apples, have a picnic lunch at the table we have set up, and do all this for less than they would spend to take that same brood to the movies. At $40 per bushel, the apples are less than they would spend at the grocery store. Less than a dollar a pound.
> 
> Today I was in a Wal Mart, and the cheapest apples they had were Red delicious, at $1.49 per pound. There weren't organic, like my apples. We don't even know what year those Red Deicious were harvested. They can keep for up to 3 years in cold storage. By comparison, my apples are fresh off the 101 year old trees, fresh, tasty. Organic, and fabulous! Old varieties, that my customers remember from their childhood. Red delicious are some of the least flavorful apples there are. The better tasting varieties were more expensive at both the grocery store, and at the other apple orchards in So. Cal. And this was Wal Mart. Not a Mothers Market, or some other store thst charges a great deal of money for organic yuppy chow.
> 
> Let's say I saw these folks hefting out approximately a bushel. If a paying customer were to come to me and ask for a bushel, pay for it at that time, they would pay $40. However if I were to sell thst same volume of apples to 16 customers, who bought 1/4 peck bags, and paid for them at that time, I would receive $112 for the same bushel.
> 
> If I take the good doctor to small claims court, do I charge her the same price as the honest customer who bought a bushel? Or do I charge her the higher amount that would have received from a different group of customers who bought the smaller bags?
> 
> Then there is the other issues related to trying to find out who my trespassers/ thieves were. There was a trip into town, 14 miles round trip, at least an hour for that trip and time asking around to determine who was pictured. Time spent preparing the email to the Sheriff, getting the pictures, checking the trail to see if it was still properly marked, etc. I will also spend time carefully wording a letter to her. Of course I will ask for my actual costs to have her served. If I do have to file in small claims court. And those costs would also be included. I'll add up my time at the end.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what I should ask for. This is very different than a transaction with a customer who presents themselves and tells me what they want to buy. Pays, gets the pre-measured bag borrows a long handled picker, picks their apples and leaves. Most folks are there for half an hour or less. This has occupied a LOT of time and energy.
> 
> What would you ask for in small claims court?


.................If , she guided the group in mass to your orchard knowing that she was trespassing then she is responsible for the TOTAL VALUE of the Apples that they , Collectively , stole from your orchard ! You should file charges against her personally as well as filing charges against the management of the SDA , IF possible ! 
................I haven't read where you have actually filed charges in this case , and I'm left wondering Why ! Besides , you should have already filed a claim in small claims court , why are you waiting ? , thanks , fordy


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## Echoesechos

As to what you charge , check with the courts to see how your local small claims work. They might have an established cost system in place. Like charges for filing, loss of potential or interference in your sales etc.. Might help you in the recouping of your loss, aggravation, etc..
Unfortunately you can talk to them all you want, but for a lot of people they only listen when it affects their pocket books. Good luck.


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## 65284

Does Cali have a law allowing a victim of theft to make a citizen's arrest? Might be something to consider.


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## Bellyman

I admire Common Tater's patience with all of this and am kinda glad she's not jumping the gun to do something quickly but rather thinking things through. The sheriff will be involved, and that's a good thing. There are a lot of "he said, she said" things that would be very difficult to being evidence of in a court of law but there are actual photos that are pretty hard to explain away. 

Whether or not the camp director is directly telling people to trespass is hard to establish without actual testimony from someone who has trespassed because he specifically told them to, under oath. Possible, but I have my doubts that will happen.

It's also possible that there are people using the camp as a parking place while doing their misdeeds that do not have permission and the knowledge of the camp director but are familiar and just do it anyhow. (As a for instance, there are a lot of church members who could go into their own church and do some cleaning or decorating of the social hall with no one even noticing they had come or gone.)

I don't know all the details but the situation IS being looked at from the other side as well. Don't construe what I've said as being in any way supportive of any of the wrongdoing. And I am all for prosecuting the offending parties. Stealing is wrong, no matter who is doing it. Bringing evidence in court can be a step beyond as there needs to be some type of physical evidence though I believe most judges would at least consider what they believed to be credible testimony. 

It's a messy situation. And as a member of the general body of believers that's in question, I want to see this resolved justly and fairly for all concerned with those who have done wrong required to make restitution and the offenses stopped for good. 

Just saying...


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## unregistered353870

> I haven't read where you have actually filed charges in this case , and I'm left wondering Why ! Besides , you should have already filed a claim in small claims court , why are you waiting ? , thanks , fordy


She just recently got the name of the offender and has contacted the sheriff to press charges but he is on vacation. Small claims court judges/magistrates often are annoyed by people who file a lawsuit without exhausting all other means first, such as the registered letter demanding payment. I think the OP even mentioned that it's required in California to give the offender 30 days to make it right before filing the suit.


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## DarleneJ

I think I might be inclined to charge her for the apples along with a hefty "unauthorized entry" fee/per person in the group. Just a thought.


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## Common Tator

Bellyman, you may be correct about SOME of the folks driving to the camp, parking there and hiking to our place. And those would be folks who'd previously hiked over from the camp while camping there, otherwise they would have no knowledge of our place. They wouldn't know it existed, they wouldn't know how to get to our place, and they certainly wouldn't be bringing bags to carry apples in. 

It makes me wonder, why the camp allows people to drive from the highway, through the camp. Past the lodge and business offices, Down to the bottom of the camp, without anyone asking where they are going or why they are there. 

Aren't they concerned about theft and vandalism? Aren't they concerned about the safety of their campers? They have all kinds of groups there. What if they had a children's group camping. Wouldn't they want to check out the stranger there to find out what their business is? Wouldn't they want to know of it was a pedophile? 

That camp is private property. They have a right to know who is there, and ask those without legitimate camp business to leave. I think they owe it to their campers to control who had access to them. They have a right to restrict access to areas where people have no business going.

This happened in Oklahoma many years ago, but it shows what can happen at camp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_Girl_Scout_Murders

On the flip side of that same coin, we don't allow people to drive through our ranch, park at the bottom so they can hike over to the camp to steal from them. What would the managers of the camp think of us if we allowed that? Would they be a tad unhappy with us?

In fact, we installed a driveway alarm. So now, if someone is driving down our road, we are already standing outside by the time they get to the house. We talk to them to determine what they are doing there, and if they don't have legitimate business with us, they leave.

Just a thought. But there was a murder at the camp a few years ago. It was one employee murdering another if memory serves. So the camp isn't Immune from violence and crime. 

Another thought. Last year, Christopher Dorner's murderous spree ended at Seven Oaks cabins. Only about a mile and a half from my ranch as the crow flies, and just a little farther than that from the camp. Did the folks at the camp pay any attention to who was driving through the camp when he was on the loose, and believed to be in those mountains?

Perhaps the camp would have better control of their property if they installed a gate with a numeric key pad just below the lodge. Better yet if there was a camera above the keypad, that got a photo of the face for the person punching in the number. There is a large parking lot there, so folks seeking access to the lower areas of the camp wouldn't be blocking the road. They could allow access to the rest of the camp to people with a legitimate business. But if someone were to ask for access, but either not want to say why they want access, or that they just wanted to hike to our place for apples, perhaps the camp employee they were asking would realize that those folks are up to no good, and ask them to leave.

Just for the record, my customers, who buy my apples only drive down our road. Anyone who hikes in for apples, is doing it to steal them.

There are a lot of people out there who believe it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. So many of the folks who play dumb when caught committing criminal trespass and theft, wouldn't do it if they had to explain to someone what their intentions really were before hand. The camp could practically eliminate apple thefts from our place if they were to put in the gate and camera that I suggested, and they would protect their own interests and eliminate a lot of their own problems too.


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## ||Downhome||

I did not read the whole thread, but heres my take and I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice but my understanding of the law.

The camp is creating a "private nuisance" as such can be brought to court.
Send a cease and desist letter.
Then follow up if it continues.
That is File a formal complaint with all grievances as well as remedy's you require.

I know laws vary state to state but most times you need to be able to show that you took reasonable and necessary actions to prevent such activity.

but I do rember seeing you said you had a 3 strand fence, so I would assume that would suffice on that matter.

When you talked to the management did you have a witness?
If so a notarized statement should suffice.

Document, Document, Document everything!
Even if it seems trivial!


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## Common Tator

Thank you downhome, I'll read up on that!


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## HerseyMI

Go to the sheriff with the trailcam footage along with your no trespass signs it should be a tidy fine for each person in the footage and the christian camp as well. AND you deserve recompensed in whatever amount your county has mandated in their books for the amounts of apples stolen. Ie: a dog kills a chicken here... its worth $150 "here" per our county laws.

Sent from my MB855 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## Bellyman

Common Tator said:


> Bellyman, you may be correct about SOME of the folks driving to the camp, parking there and hiking to our place. And those would be folks who'd previously hiked over from the camp while camping there, otherwise they would have no knowledge of our place. They wouldn't know it existed, they wouldn't know how to get to our place, and they certainly wouldn't be bringing bags to carry apples in.
> 
> It makes me wonder, why the camp allows people to drive from the highway, through the camp. Past the lodge and business offices, Down to the bottom of the camp, without anyone asking where they are going or why they are there.
> 
> Aren't they concerned about theft and vandalism? Aren't they concerned about the safety of their campers? They have all kinds of groups there. What if they had a children's group camping. Wouldn't they want to check out the stranger there to find out what their business is? Wouldn't they want to know of it was a pedophile?
> 
> That camp is private property. They have a right to know who is there, and ask those without legitimate camp business to leave. I think they owe it to their campers to control who had access to them. They have a right to restrict access to areas where people have no business going.
> 
> This happened in Oklahoma many years ago, but it shows what can happen at camp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_Girl_Scout_Murders
> 
> On the flip side of that same coin, we don't allow people to drive through our ranch, park at the bottom so they can hike over to the camp to steal from them. What would the managers of the camp think of us if we allowed that? Would they be a tad unhappy with us?
> 
> In fact, we installed a driveway alarm. So now, if someone is driving down our road, we are already standing outside by the time they get to the house. We talk to them to determine what they are doing there, and if they don't have legitimate business with us, they leave.
> 
> Just a thought. But there was a murder at the camp a few years ago. It was one employee murdering another if memory serves. So the camp isn't Immune from violence and crime.
> 
> Another thought. Last year, Christopher Dorner's murderous spree ended at Seven Oaks cabins. Only about a mile and a half from my ranch as the crow flies, and just a little farther than that from the camp. Did the folks at the camp pay any attention to who was driving through the camp when he was on the loose, and believed to be in those mountains?
> 
> Perhaps the camp would have better control of their property if they installed a gate with a numeric key pad just below the lodge. Better yet if there was a camera above the keypad, that got a photo of the face for the person punching in the number. There is a large parking lot there, so folks seeking access to the lower areas of the camp wouldn't be blocking the road. They could allow access to the rest of the camp to people with a legitimate business. But if someone were to ask for access, but either not want to say why they want access, or that they just wanted to hike to our place for apples, perhaps the camp employee they were asking would realize that those folks are up to no good, and ask them to leave.
> 
> Just for the record, my customers, who buy my apples only drive down our road. Anyone who hikes in for apples, is doing it to steal them.
> 
> There are a lot of people out there who believe it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. So many of the folks who play dumb when caught committing criminal trespass and theft, wouldn't do it if they had to explain to someone what their intentions really were before hand. The camp could practically eliminate apple thefts from our place if they were to put in the gate and camera that I suggested, and they would protect their own interests and eliminate a lot of their own problems too.


Very good points, Common Tater, no argument here. Not being familiar with how things are laid out, it's more difficult to understand how the traffic (legitimate and otherwise) is flowing from here. You have a much better handle on that as you can see it for yourself.

The liability issue is very real for them as well as you. And I hope they take it seriously. 

About the only other thing I could think of was maybe making that 3 strand fence into a 10 or 12 strand fence with enough vertical ties to make it much more difficult to go over, under or through. I don't know how long that fence line is or how hard it is to get around. I also know that if someone is determined enough, they have wire cutters at Ace Hardware for just a couple of bucks. Wire is pretty cheap, that's why I was thinking about it. And after apple season, you'd have a while to get it done before the next apple season. I know, not exactly a fix to the problem of making someone behave but it might make it more difficult for the thieves. 

You do mention having an alarm at the driveway. You could probably do something similar along the fence line to give some kind of warning. I don't know how wide of a space those driveway alarms would cover or how many you'd need to do the job but they can be hard wired so that no internet or intranet would be needed for an alarm to sound. 

You're already doing game cams which is excellent! Might not stop anyone but they're at least being filmed. (Evidence!)

One thing that could be a problem is when apple season is over, the camp group (management, that is) might think the problem is now solved when in effect, it'll be waiting for them next apple season. 

It is kind of odd, the former director, (the Asian fellow you spoke of) said that there are already apple trees on their own property that no one seems to be interested in. I suspect they're not getting cared for and may not have the nicest apples, but that's speculation on my part. It does make a person wonder what else is going on. There must be more to it. (Did the Dr.'s family plant the trees in your orchard many years ago and she just HAS to have apples off of THOSE trees?) Something's odd. Not taking up for them, not at all, just something's odd.


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## Common Tator

I haven't done the doctor's genealogy, never spoken to her for that matter. But she doesn't share a last name with our pioneers.

I spoke with a camp employee a few years ago. He told me they they have had people drive to the camp and start picking from their trees without asking.


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## ||Downhome||

Hey tater what about a PA system and wireless motion sensors? 

Have the PA play gun Fire and a bunch of Spanish being yelled in the back ground...

You know those Armed Pot growing Illegals...

you can also put out fake Cougar tracks and Bear on the trails then get the biggest beef bones you can find and scatter them here and there.


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## Common Tator

I did mention the driveway alarm. It is this one. http://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Mule-F...qid=1381948066&sr=8-4&keywords=driveway+alarm

Previously, we had a motion sensor alarm. That darn thing sounded every time a little breeze moved the leaves. So this new alarm is electromagnetic. It senses vehicles. We love it, it does exactly what we want it to do. It lets us know when there is a vehicle coming down our drive. But it has a limited range. 400 feet. And the base unit must be plugged in to electricity.

It wouldn't pick up the hikers sneaking in the bottom of the property.

That end of the property is between 1/4 and 1/3 of a mile from the house. Until technology improves and prices drop, any system that we could afford would have to be closer to the house.


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## Bellyman

That's kinda neat with the electromagnetic sensor. Hadn't considered that it might work like that. Definitely wouldn't work for humans carrying plastic bags, though.

It's a little more expensive but the prices have really come down a lot in the last few years for closed circuit television and recording equipment to record every moment of every day from 6 or 8 or 10 cameras. It wouldn't necessarily alert you at the signs of an intruder but you'd have recorded footage of the whole thing. Might even be better than still photos as it would show the perps in the act. Enough camera coverage could show them coming through the fence, picking the apples and carrying them off in enough detail that there wouldn't be any denying who it was and what they did. I'm not sure if any of the structures you speak of in the lower orchard could be useful in concealing recording equipment or not.

Just thinking out loud...


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## Common Tator

How much money am I supposed to spend to catch folks who know that what they are doing us wrong and illegal?


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## COWS

I have read this interesting thread and my first thought was "only in California." In the SE where I live I suspect the matter would have been handled more abruptly. The local legal system would NOT have had any sympathy for trespassers, assuming the legal system got involved. My impression is that it is not necessary to have posted signs up in SC to prosecute trespassers away. I do know that all land is considered posted concerning someone trespassing to hunt.

FYI on prices. Daughter took her children to a WNC orchard as part of a school trip. A fee was paid. People were given small bags and allowed to pick apples as part of the fee. We also bought 1/2 bushel of apples for $20.

COWS


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## Common Tator

Cows, I have offered schools a discount too. I offered to have schools discounts to come to our ranch too. As long as they provide me with a Certificate of Insurance, listing us as an additional named insured. I will give each kid a 1/4 peck bag, send them off with a long handled picker. Let thempick a small bag of apples. 

My reasons are many. The kids get a nice field trip for only $5 per child. Very cheap as field trips go, and that gives them the bag of apples. Some of those kids will never otherwise get a chance to pick an apple right off the tree and eat it but I think all kids should have that experience.

Some of these kids never get to go anywhere outside of home and school. 

Some of these kids will tell their family, and bring them back to pick apples.


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## COWS

If the public schools haven't shown any interest, try the home schoolers and the religious schools. They have more time to try to broaden the kid's horizons.

COWS


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## MichaelZ

There is no question about this: You posted signs and even warned them. Now turn it over to Law Enforcement. And if these are supposed "Christians" all the more reason. And I am a Christian myself, and such double-standards are quite sad to see and need to be exposed. I would hope that any supposed "Christian" camp that instructs its guests to break the law be shut down!


----------



## Lisa in WA

Has the sheriff gotten back to you yet?


----------



## fordy

................As I gaze over the top of yonder Apple Mt. the smoke signals from the Unsettled claims dept. are telling me , that , the settlement in the case of Tater vs SDA Piglet MD will be a pure Administratively orchestrated event by the SDA Nat'l Headquarters Mgt where by Piglet MD will apologize for her theft , pay an appropriate sum for the Apples stolen and promise to never repeat such behavior ! 
..................No charges will filed against Piglet MD or any other member who participated in said theft , nor will they be held accountable by law enforcement officials . And , so , all is well again in Taterland and harmony has been re established in the Orchard . , fordy


----------



## Common Tator

I haven't heard back from the sheriff yet.


----------



## MJsLady

Tator, it looks to me like you have done all you can do. 
Other than taking them to small claims for the damages/lost profits I don't see anything else you can do.

Maybe put up a metal panel fence where folks are easily climbing in... not sure how expensive that would be.


----------



## Bellyman

fordy said:


> ................As I gaze over the top of yonder Apple Mt. the smoke signals from the Unsettled claims dept. are telling me , that , the settlement in the case of Tater vs SDA Piglet MD will be a pure Administratively orchestrated event by the SDA Nat'l Headquarters Mgt where by Piglet MD will apologize for her theft , pay an appropriate sum for the Apples stolen and promise to never repeat such behavior !
> ..................No charges will filed against Piglet MD or any other member who participated in said theft , nor will they be held accountable by law enforcement officials . And , so , all is well again in Taterland and harmony has been re established in the Orchard . , fordy


Enjoyed the prognostication, fordy. :grin:

I have no idea what will come from the internal side of things. I do know of at least one attorney within the org that is not happy about the situation but I don't know the extent he will be able to help. A lot will depend upon the character of just a very few people that I don't know and have never met.

Time will tell...


----------



## Common Tator

Now that I've blown off steam, given it thought. Here is what I want to do.

What I have some control over: I will send the doc a letter of demand to pay up. If she doesn't within 30 days, I'll file in small claims Court.

I will probably paint an additional sign and place it at our boundary, "Thou shalt not steal". That is a very good suggestion.

Keep trail cams set up, so we can see what happens on that end of the property.

What I've put in motion: provided pictures to the Sheriff, and I'll be at peace with whatever he does.

What I have no control over: The camp. I've said my piece. If they continue to ignore cars entering and leaving, we will continue to have problems with theft. And so will they. I would hope that they would notify their guests not to hike over to our place. But they are not the police. So when we get pictures. I'll try to identify them, give copies of the pictures to the police, etc.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Common Tator said:


> I haven't heard back from the sheriff yet.



Seems like he's (or a representative) is taking his sweet time about getting back to you


----------



## 7thswan

Tator, can you give hunting rights to some folks that will patrol the area in the different seasons for game. They are pretty adment about protecting their 'spots".


----------



## Common Tator

7thswan said:


> Tator, can you give hunting rights to some folks that will patrol the area in the different seasons for game. They are pretty adment about protecting their 'spots".


Already done.


----------



## Rustaholic

MichaelZ said:


> There is no question about this: You posted signs and even warned them. Now turn it over to Law Enforcement. And if these are supposed "Christians" all the more reason. And I am a Christian myself, and such double-standards are quite sad to see and need to be exposed. I would hope that any supposed "Christian" camp that instructs its guests to break the law be shut down!


AMEN to that


----------



## Molly Mckee

You could put letters on the cars at the local SDA churches explaining the problem and asking for help, if appealing to the leaders doesn't stop the stealing. I would thing that like Bellyman, any member of the group that does not steal would want this ended. 

The camp is certainly not helping the church and it is making them look like a bunch of hypocrites. I find it hard to believe that any church would not find a more honest camp manager if the problem came to their attention. Plenty of people have read this posting and will wonder why the SDA church permits stealing. Local publicity would also hurt them..


----------



## Common Tator

Molly, I don't think the camp employees could stop the stealing, nor is it their job. They could notify their campers that they no longer own the ranch, and that the campers are not to hike over and trespass on the ranch, or something along those lines. Perhaps they could phrase it a little more diplomatically.

One of the excuses that so many campers have used over the years is that hey thought the camp still owned it.

The camp could pay attention to what people are doing there. If people are, as suggested earlier, driving there, parking and hiking over to our place, they could pay attention to who comes & goes. They could pay attention to people. And if some are there without legitimate business, they could ask them to leave. That only seems like common sense to me.


----------



## Michael W. Smith

Common Tator said:


> Now that I've blown off steam, given it thought. Here is what I want to do.
> 
> What I've put in motion: provided pictures to the Sheriff, and I'll be at peace with whatever he does.


Ummmm . . . . . . that is YOUR tax dollars at work - YOU pay his wages, so in effect, YOU are his employer.

I would call him tomorrow and ask "So what are you doing about my problem?"

I'm guessing your information is sitting on his desk somewhere for "when he can get to it". Remind him about it so he gets to it sooner rather than later.


----------



## Common Tator

I don't know if the sheriff is back from vacation yet. I haven't heard back yet.


----------



## Common Tator

Also, I don't want to beat up on our sheriff. If he is on vacation. I'm willing to wait until he gets back. He has a huge rural area that he is in control of , and he does a great job. He got our stolen ATV back for us a few years back. He does his job. His predecessors, not so much. He isn't neglecting us. He is on vacation.


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## Echoesechos

Along with the boundary warning sign place some that say security cameras at work. Violators will be prosecuted..


----------



## copperkid3

Echoesechos said:


> Along with the boundary warning sign place some that say security cameras at work. Violators will be prosecuted..


+ + + + + + + +
Thieves will sometimes steal more than apples!

It's enough that they already know, that they

are both trespassing and stealing apples.

They don't have to be given a clue as to how

they are caught, or how to now remove that 

evidence gathering to avoid further prosecution.

Word will get out soon enough. Might want to

think about having a very well concealed cam,

watching the primary one.


----------



## Tricky Grama

COWS said:


> I have read this interesting thread and my first thought was "only in California." In the SE where I live I suspect the matter would have been handled more abruptly. The local legal system would NOT have had any sympathy for trespassers, assuming the legal system got involved. My impression is that it is not necessary to have posted signs up in SC to prosecute trespassers away. I do know that all land is considered posted concerning someone trespassing to hunt.
> 
> FYI on prices. Daughter took her children to a WNC orchard as part of a school trip. A fee was paid. People were given small bags and allowed to pick apples as part of the fee. We also bought 1/2 bushel of apples for $20.
> 
> COWS


 I think that too, every time I open this thread! LOL! Plus, my strange humor, I've wanted to say since CT described the doc: "Is she too big for 'SSS'?"
I'll apologize in advance...


----------



## ceresone

We bought our place in December '67, when electric was turned on-next day it burned to the ground. Anyhow--the next summer, we had 2 beautiful Pear trees, loaded with Pears. Came home one day, and a neighbor almost a mile away, was picking pears. My Husband told him that they were ours--to which neighbor replied "I've picked these Pears for several years, and just because the place is sold, don't mean I'm going to quit picking!! 
Another neighbor told Hubby that he had hunted here for years, wasn't going to quit. Husband answered, Might be-but wife does a lot of target practice! And-He soon found out-there's a steep hill across our creek-and when I saw him sneaking up the valley (a safe distance away) I started picking out my targets! Should have seen him run!!


----------



## jkhs

Tator, if/when you add a new sign at the boundary line you might want to also post that the property is no longer owned by the camp. That way you really make it clear to these people that they are stealing, rather than entering private property that they think they have a right to.


----------



## Patchouli

jkhs said:


> Tator, if/when you add a new sign at the boundary line you might want to also post that the property is no longer owned by the camp. That way you really make it clear to these people that they are stealing, rather than entering private property that they think they have a right to.


Good idea. I would add it is the property of your orchard name and to please come around to the front gate to pay to pick apples.


----------



## Common Tator

Perhaps having a sign at our boundary telling folks that the camp no longer owns the place will shame the into making at least a modest effort to keep their guests from sneaking into our place.




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## Lookin4GoodLife

I don't remember if it's been mentioned yet, but how about contacting local media? If you explained your situation to them, they might do an expose and shame some folks into stopping their actions. Might also be some free advertising for you.


----------



## ntjpm

Common Tator said:


> Cows, I have offered schools a discount too. I offered to have schools discounts to come to our ranch too. As long as they provide me with a Certificate of Insurance, listing us as an additional named insured. I will give each kid a 1/4 peck bag, send them off with a long handled picker. Let thempick a small bag of apples.
> 
> My reasons are many. The kids get a nice field trip for only $5 per child. Very cheap as field trips go, and that gives them the bag of apples. Some of those kids will never otherwise get a chance to pick an apple right off the tree and eat it but I think all kids should have that experience.
> 
> Some of these kids never get to go anywhere outside of home and school.
> 
> Some of these kids will tell their family, and bring them back to pick apples.


Total thread drift (sorry), but I own a preschool and if I knew that there was a field trip like this offered somewhere near me I would definitely be bringing my school. The only thing I would add is (and you might already do it) is some little educational bit given by you (or your staff) about apples. That would be an awesome September field trip. Good on you for doing this in your community. :bow:

Tracy in WA


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## Big Dave

I have read the entire post up till the end here. CAMP? do they have cabins. Can you just go over and stay at their place or even rent cabins and you get the money. Do it once and see how the shoe is on the other foot. You dear sister are very tolerant.


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## ChristieAcres

A lot of posts with great ideas! I'll be interested to hear what happens when the Sheriff returns. 

What would we do? Since we have signs that read, "No Trespassing, Violators will be Prosecuted," we would do just that. If we caught someone here picking apples, we would call the Police and have the individual picked up, naturally pressing charges for theft. Like you did, would put up a camera to catch the offender (s) in the act, also would make it a "shocking" experience. So far, no one has made it past Sam, our sweet watchdog. He notifies us loud and clear. Some of the neighbors above us took their little dogs on a walk down the shared access easement driveway. Sam stood on our property line barking menacingly at them when the group got closer. They haven't been back since, probably worried Sam might hurt one of their little dogs. Meanwhile, he wouldn't hurt any of them, unless they tried to hurt him.


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## VERN in IL

Common Tator said:


> We own a you-pick apple orchard in the mountains. It is surrounded by National Forest. Our closest full time neighbor is a Christian camp. They used to own our ranch, but sold it 19 years ago, at a tidy profit. Before selling, they transplanted 12 apple trees from the orchard over to their place. So it isn't like they don't have apples of heir own. However they sold our ranch to absentee owners. So the employees and guests of this camp continued to treat the place like they own it. Pillage the apple orchard.
> 
> Then we bought the place. Posted no trespassing signs, and started confronting people who ignored the signs. They were first asked not to do that. Then they were told in no uncertain terms to stop it immediately. The staff was instructing the guests to hike over to our place, and we asked them repeatedly to stop that. However we kept finding strangers on the ranch who told us that they were told to hike here.
> 
> Then they got large dogs and gave them free run. We didn't know who owned them. We just knew that they were chasing our livestock. I had a lengthy thread here about that. I had to stop there one day on business, and recognized the dogs. I researched state law and notified the camp that if the dogs came back to chase livestock, I would shoot the dogs, and the dogs owners would be liable for any damage or injury caused to our livestock by their dogs. It didn't stop until a short time later when the dogs were lunging at my donkey's throat. I called to tell them I was getting my gun. I didn't have to shoot the dogs, as they ran off when I got close enough yo get a good shot.
> 
> Fast forward to today. I have game cam footage of a group hiking in, with empty backpacks and shopping bags, and leaving with them full. And one of the dogs was with them.
> 
> We have owned this place 13 years, and they still ignore the law and do as they please.
> 
> Should I confront the camp with the photos, or just turn it over to the sheriff?


YOU are the Landowner. It is YOUR responsibility to stop "public access" Signs do nothing, they have to leave when you tell them or you can have them arrested, but if you don't see them, they will keep coming like hordes of zombies. You need a fence and a gate, perhaps signs saying "keep out by order of the sheriff" and a Sheriff order would help. It works like public access with roads, if the gate is open and no signs present, anyone can walk in. But if your gate is locked and signs, the zombies are in trouble.

Nothing better to keep Zombie Trespassers away than HUMAN PRESENCE. It's like if I bought 120 acres down south, and only visited it twice a year, the locals would overrun it, it'd have tree stands and who knows what other "unauthorized" activity would be on it, probably a full fledged Mary Jane operation.


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## Common Tator

Just checking in. I haven't heard back from the Sheriff yet. I'll call him back on Monday.

So I've been researching small claims actions, preparing a letter to demand that the doc pay damages. I'm really bad at this. I wrote a lengthy letter where I blew off steam. Then I slept on it and went back to the letter and started removing everything that wasn't necessary, even remotely emotional, gave too much information, etc. 

The finished letter will include the pictures, state the facts, make a demand that she pay damages (outlined) and give her 30 days to do so or I'll file the small claims action.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

That was probably a good idea. You're not Clarence Darrow or Johnny Cochran and I doubt novices trying to play Perry Mason impresses a judge much. You did good taking the soap box out and sticking with the facts. I'm a hot-head myself and I'm sure I would have been guilty of the same thing. :ashamed:

I do know one thing..... I can't stand a thief and I'm a stubborn old goat. If I didn't get satisfaction in court, I'd be on that back lot morning, noon and night even if I had to hire or barter for someone to watch the business end of things for me and the next time someone breached that fence-line, they'd be staring at the business end of my 12 gauge. It wouldn't have anything to do with a monetary loss, it'd be the principle of someone screwing me.


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## Shygal

Why are you targeting the Dr? Are you hoping she will give the names of the other people?


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## Common Tator

The Dr. is the only person who has been identified. I have asked in the letter for her to identify the others. When the Sheriff talks to her she may give him the other names.


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## Shygal

Ah ok, gotcha


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## Finally Home

Does the Sherrif station close down while the Sherrif is on vacation??? No one else available to help out??? What about a solar powered fence zapper. Post an "Electric Fence" sign right below the No Trespassing sign. Less than $200 could add that to your existing fence.


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## Common Tator

Our ranch is surrounded by National Forest. Our local Sheriff is assigned to our nearest little berg. He knows the locals. He is the only one on the force who even knows how to find our ranch.

The doctor lives in that little berg too. Our local sheriff is familiar with the California Farm theft program. I don't know if any other deputy that might answer the call would know anything about the program. But the penalties are different for theft from a farm than they are for others. Thefts from farms are more heavily penalized than other types of thefts. 

This sheriff understands the history between the church camp and our ranch, and the church camp and us personally. And finally, I want a cool head to prevail. I don't want people arrested and saddled with a criminal record that will follow them forever. I would much prefer something to be done administratively. They can learn a lesson without being placed under arrest and having a mug shot taken. I want to stop the thefts, not ruin lives.

I've been talking to the camp all these years. And what I had to say was dually noted and ignored. Perhaps if the sheriff were to talk to them, he could get them to be aware of who is at the camp, and what they are doing. 

Perhaps if they were to post a notice at the spot where the trail to our ranch leaves their camp, that they no longer own the ranch, that the ranch is privately owned and that there are civil and criminal penalties for farm thefts. 

If they see someone, or a group without any camp related business drive up, park their car, hiked off, and return with bags of apples, there is exactly one local option of where they went and what they did. Or if they see their own campers disappear down the trail, return with bags of apples, they could say something, either to the sheriff, or to me. Because it means that they hiked our ranch, stole apples and hiked back. Plus, I'll be taking the perps (her/them) to small claims court, and asking for the maximum amount allowed by law. It turns out that may be quite a bit, as I'm entitled to ask for triple damages. At least in this case.

Perhaps if this local Sheriff were to talk to them, they will listen to him, where they were quite comfortable ignoring me before law enforcement was involved. Perhaps if he were to explain to them that they may share culpability with the perpetrators if they willfully ignore what they have been facilitating all these years, they will listen.


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## used2bcool13

Just a thought, could your email have possibly ended up in the Sherriff's spam folder? 
I am very sorry to hear about your troubles, If they are locals, they know who's property it is and since they are coming in through the "back door" i.e. the camp and are quiet about it I would think they are aware they are stealing. I am not trying to rile you up about that and I hope it comes to an agreeable solution for you as quickly as possible, best wishes.


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## Common Tator

I'll find out if the Sheriff got my emails when I talk yo him on Monday. 

I agree that these folks snuck in the bottom of the property to avoid detection. I've already gone through my getting riled up phase. Now I'm in my thinking it through phase.


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## PennyV

I'm following the developments of your trespasser problem with interest. Naturally, I'm rooting for you, Tater.

(I've gotten a lot of ideas for how to improve our own little homestead's security, so beyond understanding ways to deal with trespassers, I've bookmarked a number of resources for securing some corners of our little property, that are currently outside easy sight lines, so although this is off topic, thanks to everyone for another great learning experience I didn't know I'd enjoy!  )


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## Tricky Grama

Just have to say, you're toooo nice, CT. Their theft SHOULD follow them...


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## Rustaholic

I would probably bury a wire around that upper secluded area they are stealing from and put a couple dogs in there and electrify the border fence.

I would add the This Property is XYZ U-Pick Farm, Do Not Enter Here,
Beware of Dogs and Electric Fence signs. Yes, And keep the trail cams up for the ones that will not adhere.

When you wanted to let your paying customers up there you could remove the dogs for a while. Seems like German Shepherds make great watch dogs.

Can you tell I do NOT like thieves?


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## cab

You would have much better luck in small claims court if these people had been arrested for their theft. They know exactly what they are doing. I agree, you are too nice.


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## Riverdale

texican said:


> Or, buy one of the basic solar fence chargers and have the top wire 'hot'...


Or rotate out through the 3 strands (at random) so they don't know (without trial and error each time) the hot one. But I'm evil that way


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## Common Tator

I found the Doc's Facebook page. She had photos of herself, two of the three young adults that were with her the day they were here, and the little girl. She only mentions their first names, but they do appear to be her family.


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## Rustaholic

Common Tator said:


> I found the Doc's Facebook page. She had photos of herself, two of the three young adults that were with her the day they were here, and the little girl. She only mentions their first names, but they do appear to be her family.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today


Good detective work.


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## VERN in IL

This begs the question: What Denomination of Christians is this Camp? Seems very un "Christian like" to be taking other peoples stuff.


Spill the beans, I wanna know what is their name of the denomination!


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## Kristinemomof3

I believe she said they were 7th day Adventist?


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## karenp

Wow, you are way more forgiving than I am. I you don't even want them arrested and I'd be pushing for jail time.


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## copperkid3

VERN in IL said:


> This begs the question: What Denomination of Christians is this Camp? Seems very un "Christian like" to be taking other peoples stuff.
> 
> 
> Spill the beans, I wanna know what is their name of the denomination!


+ + + + + + + +


That question was already answered in thread #36.


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## unregistered353870

Common Tator said:


> I found the Doc's Facebook page. She had photos of herself, two of the three young adults that were with her the day they were here, and the little girl. She only mentions their first names, but they do appear to be her family.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today


Search her friends for people with those first names and you may find their profiles as well.


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## VERN in IL

copperkid3 said:


> + + + + + + + +
> 
> 
> That question was already answered in thread #36.


Hmmhmm, probably they are vegetarian. LOL that is funny, can't let an Apple go to waste.:shocked:


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## a'ightthen

10 days Already?

Not sure what would have transpired here by now .... but pretty sure that I wouldn't be asking for guidance.

It's your land .... deal with it.


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## General Brown

Common Tator said:


> He is the only one on the force who even knows how to find our ranch.


Wow...sure hope you never have a robbery or a killer show up at your home while he is on vacation!!!

Seriously?


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## unregistered353870

Most places the police/sheriff won't get there fast enough to save you from a killer even if they do know how to find it. That's why it's good to be able to take care of yourself.


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## KCFLY

Any updates? If the sheriff was back yesterday...... Would love to hear how he plans to proceed.


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## Bellyman

KCFLY said:


> Any updates? If the sheriff was back yesterday...... Would love to hear how he plans to proceed.


Dito!


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## KCFLY

Even if the Sheriff has asked you not to post anything more on the subject, could you at least stop by and say you can't post anymore, for now.. ???


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## unregistered41671

When CT knows more, she will let us know.


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## ihuntgsps

Very interesting thread CT. Thank you for sharing.

One question that stays in my mind is why rely on the camp (which has ignored your requests previously) to warn their campers to stay off your trail?

If there is still a trail leading from the camp to your ranch why not make it less easily accessable by selective plantings or allowing natural growth to overtake the trail from your property to their property/etc.? 

Post signs along the obvious trails with warnings like others have suggested until the natural barriers you create do their job. I bet not many people would fight through thorny berry patches/etc. would they?

I just don't understand keeping a trail from their place to yours? It almost seems like an invitation.


----------



## Bellyman

A single publicized conviction might do wonders. But yes natural barriers are worth doing where possible. Thorny bramble patches, tree brush piles, that kind of thing. Maybe even some selective excavations to make it more difficult.

And where that's not possible or practical, I still like the 10 - 12 (+) strand barbed wire idea. It's cheap and low tech.

I suspect apple season is pretty well over so this year's aggrivations probably are too. Lots of time to plan and prep for next year though.


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## KCFLY

Natural barriers work well. A few years back we had some local teens that were using some land behind me as their own. I ordered about 20 blackberry (?) plants from our extension office and now have a thick, thorny, wall that has completely stopped anyone from passing thru that area. Cheap and easy.


----------



## Tricky Grama

KCFLY said:


> Natural barriers work well. A few years back we had some local teens that were using some land behind me as their own. I ordered about 20 blackberry (?) plants from our extension office and now have a thick, thorny, wall that has completely stopped anyone from passing thru that area. Cheap and easy.


So then how to keep 'em from stealing berries...


----------



## simi-steading

OK.. it's way past Monday... I wanna hear the rest of the story...


----------



## Rustaholic

Her last post on this whole site was number 173 on this topic.
Maybe she dropped her iPod in the creek heading out to check the trail cams.


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## 354508

hmm. perhaps a gag order is in effect?


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## KCFLY

updates???

If there is a gag order in place, the O.P. could just post a blank post so we know she's still out there.


----------



## am1too

Tricky Grama said:


> So then how to keep 'em from stealing berries...


Let em have the berries. They're not making a living from them.


----------



## copperkid3

Sent Tator a P.M. on the 28th, requesting that she come back

and let us know how things are going with the sheriff, et al.

No word received back. Saw that she was on site early this morning,

so at least she (or someone using her account) is still alive and kicking.

I'm sure she has her reasons and when she's ready, she'll be back to give us the latest.


----------



## Common Tator

I'm back. I apologize for being gone so long. First, I was waiting to hear back from the Sheriff. And then I got a terrible chest cold and bronchitis. I was too sick to spend a lot of time preparing long responses, made even longer because I type it out with one finger on an iPad. 

The Sheriff is back. That is all I know from that end.

On my end, I was finally well enough to leave the house yesterday. I mailed the photos and the letter of demand to the doctor. It was sent return receipt requested. She has 30 days from receipt to pay up or I file a small claims action.

As for the question of why the trail, it is pretty inhospitable now. Remember, it was once the road into the ranch. It was pretty well maintained then. But in the '70's, the Forest Service gated the opposite end of it, and refused to give the owners of the ranch a copy of the key. The road fell into terrible disrepair. At one point, a Forest ranger, wanting to ensure it couldn't be used as a road again, made a huge mound of dirt on the road and planted an oak tree on it. Now it has logs and boulders across it, parts so badly eroded that you take your life in your hands crossing it. Barbed wire fence. No trespassing signs. 


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## MJsLady

CT, that to me does not sound like a trip worthy of picking a few apples! Those trespassers must be real apple lovers!

Sorry to hear you were sick, but happy to hear you are better!


----------



## Bellyman

Now it gets interesting!

Wonder what kind of reply the letter will get??

Thanks for the update and glad you're on the road to recovery... maybe in more ways than one. ;-)

I hear ya about typing. I'm doing the one finger thing on a smartphone so I can relate!


----------



## Common Tator

I hunt gsps, I wanted to address a question you asked. I wasn't relying on the camp to warn people off the trail. I wanted them to be aware of what their campers and other guests are doing. I think they of have an obligation to tell their campers that they sold our ranch. That it is private property now, and the new owners aren't affiliated with the camp, or the church.

And I would like camp management to be aware of who enters the camp, drives all the way from the highway on the uphill side if the camp, all the way down past the main lodge and parking lot, past the business office all the way to the bottom of the camp, parks their car, hikes off and later returns with bags of apples. They had to have seen this many, many times and done nothing. However, if the same people were to drive into the camp, and start loading up their car with tools and equipment belonging to the camp, they would put a stop to it immediately. 

As I said in an earlier post. We don't allow folks to come park at our place so that they can hike over to the camp to steal from them. 

Anyway. I'm through trying to talk to the camp about the thefts, other than to let them know that we are through talking. We are now acting. I suspect the doctor will be too humiliated to tell anyone what she was caught doing. I suspect she will pay up and shut up. But eventually, folks will start spreading the word that trespassing and thefts are not tolerated at our place.

I never told the camp the name of the doctor, nor did I show them pictures. And I won't. One of the posters here did communicate up through the church organization about this. And the folks at the camp were asked about it. But they haven't gotten in touch with me. I'm thinking about sending the camp a brief note letting them know we are prosecuting those who trespass and steal from us.


Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today


----------



## unregistered41671

Glad you are feeling better Tator.


----------



## Tricky Grama

So sorry you were sick, glad you are better. Have had bronchitis & thought I'd have to get better to die.

Sounds like yu're on your way to a solution, too!!


----------



## clovis

I'm just going to put this out there:

This thread isn't as fascinating as the Cap'n Dreadlocks saga, but it does have me on the edge of my seat.

My guess is that the stealing doctor will throw your letter in the trash. 

My other guess is that you have one or two people who still feel strong ownership of your property, even though you bought it years ago. For instance, the woods that I played in as a kid is still "my woods", even though I haven't been in those woods since my uncle sold it 25 years ago.

People are weird, and sometimes they think they own stuff that isn't even theirs. Just ask my neighbor, who thinks he should have control over my property, and everything I own, including how I should run my life. He's an expert on that!


----------



## MJsLady

> I never told the camp the name of the doctor, nor did I show them pictures. And I won't. One of the posters here did communicate up through the church organization about this. And the folks at the camp were asked about it. But they haven't gotten in touch with me. I'm thinking about sending the camp a brief note letting them know we are prosecuting those who trespass and steal from us.


Did the poster do this with or with out your knowledge or consent? I am hoping with.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I'm thinking the doctor will pay up and stop the practice of stealing. I hope the caretakers of the camp are told to do their job or leave. No church wants to see this kind of publicity, caused by the bad actions of a few people.


----------



## Gianni

LAte to the party but if/when you take legal action include the cost of you and your husbands time, fencing, cameras and anything else you have been out to help resolve this matter.


----------



## Pearl B

Good luck with things, & thank you for the update. To bad it took such measures to get them to start acting (hopefully) like decent people.

Glad your feeling better!


----------



## Common Tator

MJsLady said:


> Did the poster do this with or with out your knowledge or consent? I am hoping with.


With my consent. Talking to them directly for years hadn't done any good.


----------



## Bellyman

Common Tator said:


> With my consent. Talking to them directly for years hadn't done any good.


Don't know if talking to them internally has any more effect. (??) I haven't heard anything from the other side either. Doesn't mean nothing has happened. Doesn't mean something has happened either, only that I don't know about it if it has. 

Hoping your demand letter has a good outcome. I'm sure you have other things to do than spend the hours dealing with small claims court. (Not sure what protocol might be for the sheriff's end of things. Might that depend upon the response from the demand letter? Just curious.)

Wishing you only the best!


----------



## VERN in IL

General Brown said:


> Wow...sure hope you never have a robbery or a killer show up at your home while he is on vacation!!!
> 
> Seriously?


Why does it matter if the Sheriff is on vacation? This isn't Europe, the Police are not the only ones with firearms.


----------



## Common Tator

Thank you again Bellyman! Even if they haven't gotten in touch with me, the higher up folks in the organization are aware of the problem now. I'm reasonably sure that they have told the folks running the camp to keep an eye open for this kind of activity. And that is better than where we were before your involvement.


----------



## Common Tator

Vern, I had my ranch open to the public for you-pick. I would only use my firearms to protect innocent lives. I wouldn't be threatening or shooting anyone for stealing.


----------



## VERN in IL

Common Tator said:


> Vern, I had my ranch open to the public for you-pick. I would only use my firearms to protect innocent lives. I wouldn't be threatening or shooting anyone for stealing.


I didn't say to threaten them with firearms or shooting them! You never want to use the firearm. But it can't be denied when coming upon trespassers, having a firearm displayed on your side does provide some intimidation!


----------



## Common Tator

You're right Vern.


----------



## thehermit1000

It's very hard to get any satisfactory resolution when people steal from you. If you take them to small claims court, you have to pay to have them served, and if they aren't there you have to pay to have them served again. If you win the case, they won't pay, and you have to hire a collection agency. It's very frustratating.

Hermit


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## NamasteMama

Personally I think solar electric cattle fencing would solve your problem. Those are quite unpleasant to touch and would deter all but the most determined criminal.


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## o&itw

NamasteMama said:


> Personally I think solar electric cattle fencing would solve your problem. Those are quite unpleasant to touch and would deter all but the most determined criminal.


You mean the type you can cut through in about three seconds with a pair of insulated pliers? Or drop a log across, Or short out with a piece of wire?

If people are going to steal, there are not many common electric fences that would stop them.

Just sayin. 

Fences of any kind aren't cheap.


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## Common Tator

Just checking in. I sent the letter of demand return receipt requested. I haven't gotten the return receipt back yet.

Does anyone know how long the post office will hold the letter before sending it back if she doesn't sign for it?


----------



## Patchouli

Common Tator said:


> Just checking in. I sent the letter of demand return receipt requested. I haven't gotten the return receipt back yet.
> 
> Does anyone know how long the post office will hold the letter before sending it back if she doesn't sign for it?


Did you check it online to see where it is? It should have a tracking number. I don't think they hold things for longer than a week at most, that's what it usually says when I get a notice to pick something up.


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## Molly Mckee

I think 10 working days.


----------



## Pearl B

Common Tator said:


> Just checking in. I sent the letter of demand return receipt requested. I haven't gotten the return receipt back yet.
> 
> Does anyone know how long the post office will hold the letter before sending it back if she doesn't sign for it?


 Im pretty sure its 2 weeks.


----------



## copperkid3

They are "supposed" to attempt delivery (3) times

before returning it to the sender if undeliverable.

Of course if it's a small town post office, and she 

was given a heads up and decided to refuse it . . .

you should be getting a response shortly - one way or the other.


----------



## Common Tator

It is a very small town Post Office. There is no mail delivery to the houses. Everybody has to go to the post office and get their mail from their P O Box.

Edited to add: unless the doc heard from the Sheriff, I don't think she knows. The folks who identified her in the photos were very clear that they didn't want the doc to know that they were the ones. They know her socially.


----------



## NamasteMama

o&itw said:


> You mean the type you can cut through in about three seconds with a pair of insulated pliers? Or drop a log across, Or short out with a piece of wire?
> 
> If people are going to steal, there are not many common electric fences that would stop them.
> 
> Just sayin.
> 
> Fences of any kind aren't cheap.


Yes but if he knows where they are crossing a small portion could be electrified. Or heres a thought, Tator, try posting electric fence warning signs. Maybe the signs alone will deter the thieves?

Here spent $12 for 10 signs and string them up on the top of the fence and see if that helps.


----------



## COWS

Thought of you when I was working on my electric fence today.

I checked some prices on the internet, at Tractor Supply. Wire is sold in Gauge sizes, which I have trouble keeping straight, but a 1/2 mile roll of 17 gauge wire is $25. A 25 mile fence charger is $90, but I recommend Pharmark(sp) chargers. I don't remember the price, but I have a 50 mile charger which does well. It speaks with authority. A fence charger has to be grounded. Usual procedure is to use a copper plated steel rod, I think they come in 6 foot sizes. The procedure for driving one in the ground is to hold it in both hands, poke it into the ground as hard as you can, remove it, pour a small amount of water in the hole, pull rod up, slam it into the ground again, pull out, add water, repeat until the rod is deep in the ground, drive rest of way with big hammer. If you have rocky soil this probably won't work. In some cases it is necessary to dig a trench and bury most of the rod horizontally.

6 foot T posts are$3.80 up, depending on thickness of post. Insulators are 25 for $8.

You mentioned that they could use insulated pliers to cut the wire. I don't think they will do that. These people are not meth heads looking to steal scrap. They won't come prepared to cut wire and their self image is probably that they are not really stealing. If they have to cut wire they will be giving their self image a hit and I don't think they will do that, but then I'm 3000 miles away.

But you are not building a fence to keep people out. People don't need a fence, they can read no trespassing signs. You are just building a fence to keep the deer out of your apples. You do have deer, don't you? If you are lucky enough to not have deer, count your blessings that you don't have to deal with the rats with antlers. You also mentioned trouble with dogs bothering a donkey? (I didn't know dogs would bother a donkey, here people with goats and sheep keep a donkey in the pasture to deter coyotes.) Anyway, I recommend at least 3 strands of wire. Put the first strand about 10 inches above the ground, the second 20-24 which should keep dogs out. Put another strand about chest high for deer. Wrap a few strips of aluminum foil around the wire and smear peanut butter on them so the deer will get a serious shock. The deer can jump over that but they usually don't after they get a shock. People will find it difficult to get between those wires, but if they do add another wire between the number 2 and 3 wire. If people come in after that you have good evidence of trespass.

To check the condition of the wire, it is easier if you have the runs divided into segments which can be unhooked easily to isolate the run which is giving trouble. You need a digital fence checker to take a reading on the wire. If it shows low power, there is a problem somewhere. Good luck.

COWS


----------



## Common Tator

Thank you Cows. We have deer. But it seems we have more bear than deer this year. Our soil is rocks, with a little dirt mixed in.


----------



## Post Carbon

True story: My across-the-road neighbor's farmstand lock box was jimmied by a older teen. At that moment, an acquaintence drove by, saw this happening, stopped her car and said "You shouldn't steal from farm stands." The guy said "there wasn't anything in it anyway." (There was at least $25 in it.) So she took 3 photos of the guy with her phone, and since she knew my neighbor's email, sent the photos to them. 

They showed the photo all around the neighborhood, to the police, sent it all around email. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, another neighbor PUT IT ONTO HER FACEBOOK PAGE. We're talking a 30-year-old neighbor with lots of local friends. They messaged her that they knew the guy, knew his mom, and here's his mom's cellphone. The guy's name is given to the police.

THE NEXT DAY the guy returns. He's all dressed up. He's got $50, for what he stole, plus enuf to repair the box. He asks "Please lady, take my picture off of Facebook." He said all his friends and neighbors are giving him grief. My neighbor talked about making choices, how the information was out in the world now, and how he needs to talk to the police. He asked again to please take it off of Facebook, and she says that you need to call the police. She pulls out her cellphone, dials the police and hands him the phone. AND HE TALKS TO THEM, more concerned about getting his face off of Facebook.

This is public shaming at its finest. And the only thing you need to say is the facts. That this photo was taken at such-and-such a place, on such-and-such a date, that the apples were not paid for, and whatever pertinent facts are indisputable, like that they climbed thru a fence past a No Trespassing sign.

But get someone well-connected with Facebook in the community to do it. It wouldn't have worked for me as I don't do Facebook.

PCP


----------



## Common Tator

Thank you Post Carbon. I do have Facebook, and the ranch also has a Facebook page. in my letter to the doc, I told her ghost I apologize if it wasn't her. However if she denied it, the pictures would be posted around town, and on the Internet.


----------



## Bellyman

Anxious to hear whether the doc decides to reply or ignore or (?). 

Hope you're feeling better, Ms. Tator.  I know you were struggling with a cold / flu thing and that's no fun. 

Are the apples all over for the season there? We've seen some freezes in this part of the country (central KY / TN) already and the pretty part of the fall foliage is over here. Not as pretty as last year but still very pretty about last weekend. 

Anyway, hope you are well.


----------



## Common Tator

Hi Bellyman. Yes, apple season ended quite early this year. Last year we stayed open through Thanksgiving. This year we ran out of apples in early October. We had a much smaller crop.

Thank you for your good wishes regarding my health. I finally gave in today and went to the doctor. My chest cold had turned into bronchitis, so I'm taking a round of antibiotics. Hopefully I'll be right as rain in a few days.

And I hope you are in good health too!


----------



## Tricky Grama

Post Carbon said:


> True story: My across-the-road neighbor's farmstand lock box was jimmied by a older teen. At that moment, an acquaintence drove by, saw this happening, stopped her car and said "You shouldn't steal from farm stands." The guy said "there wasn't anything in it anyway." (There was at least $25 in it.) So she took 3 photos of the guy with her phone, and since she knew my neighbor's email, sent the photos to them.
> 
> They showed the photo all around the neighborhood, to the police, sent it all around email. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, another neighbor PUT IT ONTO HER FACEBOOK PAGE. We're talking a 30-year-old neighbor with lots of local friends. They messaged her that they knew the guy, knew his mom, and here's his mom's cellphone. The guy's name is given to the police.
> 
> THE NEXT DAY the guy returns. He's all dressed up. He's got $50, for what he stole, plus enuf to repair the box. He asks "Please lady, take my picture off of Facebook." He said all his friends and neighbors are giving him grief. My neighbor talked about making choices, how the information was out in the world now, and how he needs to talk to the police. He asked again to please take it off of Facebook, and she says that you need to call the police. She pulls out her cellphone, dials the police and hands him the phone. AND HE TALKS TO THEM, more concerned about getting his face off of Facebook.
> 
> This is public shaming at its finest. And the only thing you need to say is the facts. That this photo was taken at such-and-such a place, on such-and-such a date, that the apples were not paid for, and whatever pertinent facts are indisputable, like that they climbed thru a fence past a No Trespassing sign.
> 
> But get someone well-connected with Facebook in the community to do it. It wouldn't have worked for me as I don't do Facebook.
> 
> PCP


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Facebook

The 21rst Century's "Scarlet Letter"!!


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## Common Tator

She still hasn't picked up the letter.


----------



## wottahuzzee

You might want to check in your local jurisdiction, but in some jurisdictions, refusal to accept a certified letter is the same as receiving it, because they feel the person knows what is in the letter and that is reason for refusal. 

Another thing is you might send a copy by regular mail and she might be much more likely to see that, unless she sees your return address and has a pretty good idea what it is about. 

I have a feeling she has an idea of what is going on and thinks if she ignores/avoids it, she will skate free. If she is picking up all her other mail and not that registered letter, then she knows. 

Public humiliation, she deserves it. 

I would be hard pressed not to go into her office and start helping myself to office supplies, bandaids, etc. Of course, that would really be considered a crime. 

Good luck, I hope you stick it to her and collect. She knows better. She is just a bully.


----------



## am1too

Common Tator said:


> Just checking in. I sent the letter of demand return receipt requested. I haven't gotten the return receipt back yet.
> 
> Does anyone know how long the post office will hold the letter before sending it back if she doesn't sign for it?


Takes more than 30 days if they don't pick it up. In which case you get it back.


----------



## am1too

Post Carbon said:


> True story: My across-the-road neighbor's farmstand lock box was jimmied by a older teen. At that moment, an acquaintence drove by, saw this happening, stopped her car and said "You shouldn't steal from farm stands." The guy said "there wasn't anything in it anyway." (There was at least $25 in it.) So she took 3 photos of the guy with her phone, and since she knew my neighbor's email, sent the photos to them.
> 
> They showed the photo all around the neighborhood, to the police, sent it all around email. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, another neighbor PUT IT ONTO HER FACEBOOK PAGE. We're talking a 30-year-old neighbor with lots of local friends. They messaged her that they knew the guy, knew his mom, and here's his mom's cellphone. The guy's name is given to the police.
> 
> THE NEXT DAY the guy returns. He's all dressed up. He's got $50, for what he stole, plus enuf to repair the box. He asks "Please lady, take my picture off of Facebook." He said all his friends and neighbors are giving him grief. My neighbor talked about making choices, how the information was out in the world now, and how he needs to talk to the police. He asked again to please take it off of Facebook, and she says that you need to call the police. She pulls out her cellphone, dials the police and hands him the phone. AND HE TALKS TO THEM, more concerned about getting his face off of Facebook.
> 
> This is public shaming at its finest. And the only thing you need to say is the facts. That this photo was taken at such-and-such a place, on such-and-such a date, that the apples were not paid for, and whatever pertinent facts are indisputable, like that they climbed thru a fence past a No Trespassing sign.
> 
> But get someone well-connected with Facebook in the community to do it. It wouldn't have worked for me as I don't do Facebook.
> 
> PCP


Its my understanding that no trespassing has to be registered at the county court house to prosecute.


----------



## fordy

Common Tator said:


> She still hasn't picked up the letter.


...............Has your sheriff had a face to face , Come to Jesus meeting with the Piglet Doc ? By now she should have either paid your bill OR had charges filed against her for trespassing and theft ! Either you slam this person against the wall with charges or she is going to walk ! , fordy


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## unregistered353870

Common Tator said:


> She still hasn't picked up the letter.


Is there another option if she never accepts the letter? Like using a process server?


----------



## unregistered353870

fordy said:


> ...............Has your sheriff had a face to face , Come to Jesus meeting with the Piglet Doc ? By now she should have either paid your bill OR had charges filed against her for trespassing and theft ! Either you slam this person against the wall with charges or she is going to walk ! , fordy


I don't know about where CT lives, but around here nothing happens fast, especially not when it comes to the law. I caught a guy stealing cattle once (from a neighbor, not from me). I was scheduled to testify against him at the trial...over 2 years later...but he plead to a deal at the last minute.


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## copperkid3

am1too said:


> Its my understanding that no trespassing has to be registered at the county court house to prosecute.


+ + + + + + + + +
related to this case; criminally (trespassing with theft)

and civilly (potential civil lawsuit for value of fruit taken without compensation).

Depending on how each case is handled,

the outcome of the one may (and likely will have)

a strong outcome on the other.


----------



## oneokie

am1too said:


> Its my understanding that no trespassing has to be registered at the county court house to prosecute.


Depends on state law. 

Here in Oklahoma, if the property is occupied, no notice or signage is required. Unoccupied property has to have signage.


----------



## Common Tator

I've never heard of having to register no trespassing with the county. Here, signs must be posted at all roads and trails entering the property, and at least three per mile around the property line. My ranch is properly posted.


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## wottahuzzee

wottahuzzee said:


> I would be hard pressed not to go into her office and start helping myself to office supplies, bandaids, etc. Of course, that would really be considered a crime.


I just had a delicious thought. If you get a judgment, you may be able to do just that under the protection of law. Just waltz through her place of business picking up stuff (though I am sure you would rather have the cash and an end to the trespassing). haha Shoes on the other foot now.


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## sidepasser

I hope you are feeling better now, bronchitis is pretty awful to have. I wonder if the doc figures you will let this go? Some folks are like that. I would rather go hungry than steal. That said, I doubt the doc was hungry.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## JJ Grandits

You contacted the sheriff, now contact a lawyer. I don't believe in suing people for no good reason, but you have a good reason. They keep ignoring you because they have no fear of you. Give them something to be afraid of and your problems will stop.


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## Riverdale

What JJ said. In our litigious society, all it would take is one person spraining their ankle while tresspassing for you to lose everything in a lawsuit.

Cuz you are a rich farmer and have deep pockets.......


----------



## Loriann1971

I was thinking about the camp acting like it isn't their problem and that they can't stop people from crossing your fence on a hike. That is ridiculous. When I was a kid and went to church camp up in Big Bear, they were always warning us to stay within the boundaries of the camp. One reason for the warnings was so that we wouldn't trespass on neighboring land and the second reason was because of all the bears in the area. Not only should they stop telling people to steal your apples, they should be neighborly and warn people of the camp boundaries.

A few years ago, I taught a workshop at a teachers retreat at the Free Methodist campgrounds near you. They encouraged the teachers to use their free afternoon to patronize all the great shops in Oak Glen.


----------



## DryHeat

From what I know, the idea of entering a doc's office and confiscating items to cover a judgement may be a pleasant fantasy, but it *is* a fantasy. The legal system has convoluted and time-consuming ways of pulling funds from people who lose civil suits and owe judgements to plaintiffs, but it would be done through, most likely, the sheriff's office. The doc's office is very likely insulated from responsibility for her actions as an individual as an LLC or corporation, or such. If a personal bank account can be identified, funds from it might eventually be attached from it to cover amounts including court costs and the judgement. Often, further legal papers have to be filed to do something like that so for a few hundred dollars the damaged party has to be quite stubborn and angry since it can become a money-loser to pursue collections due to attorney fees that aren't covered by the original case. However, even a small claims court judgement being on record and unpaid goes onto credit reports and is a significant black mark on the defendant's record.

Laws vary state by state, so who knows about CA? That's how lawyers make their money, unfortunately. I've had it said to me by attorneys and LE both that for some time, even if some offense has elements of *criminal* activity, it won't be investigated, the perp won't be pursued for you to any real extent, unless the financial loss is something up around $10K or more. Things have to be prioritized, so cases are left for "civil action," that is, lawsuits, if no violence is involved.

However, if you do jump through the hoops and file a suit with papers served on the defendant, IF they make the mistake of not bothering to appear in court to respond (probably including not having an attorney represent them either), a judge is likely to rule for your complaint across the board, giving you everything you ask for since the defendant is considered to have plead guilty by not appearing. This may not be of much effect in a small claims action, but I have won a couple of lawsuits over unpaid business debts in higher courts and will say those particular deadbeats likely regretted not settling quietly earlier for some fraction of the original billing. The legal system can be very much like an angry pit bull with a grip on your leg in those situations, which resulted in actions like the local sheriff walking into a mall store, closing it down saying things would be auctioned the next week until the amount owed me was fully covered (store owner suddenly found the money in an account and cut a full check the next day...). In another case, a freakin' elementary school principal with a small business on the side ignored owing me a chunk of money and found a couple of bank accounts cleaned out, then later a storage locker with inventory he had denied having after declaring bankruptcy confiscated and auctioned off in small lots, again with some money making its way back to me.


----------



## Molly Mckee

If the doctor won't pick up her letter, I'd put the picture in the local paper and ask for help identifying the people.


----------



## CountryWannabe

An old friend had a summons sent in what looked like a birthday card, with a piece of card in the envelope to further disguise the contents.

Perhaps you could send a bubble protection envelope or a small box with signature required? 

Mary


----------



## Common Tator

Loriann, thank you. I still don't understand the attitude of the neighboring camp. I'm amazed that they aren't concerned about what kind of Christian witness is demonstrated by their actions. As for bears, that trail is used by bears every day.


----------



## COWS

Bears have been mentioned. Just for curiousity, since I have had no dealings with bears, will an electric fence keep them out? 

COWS


----------



## susanneb

Is it possible to buy a mold for fake bear tracks? Perhaps these people are too stupid, but I'd be tempted to leave some collected bear scat and place bear tracks in view from their side of the fence.

On second thought, perhaps they'll be eaten?


----------



## Common Tator

There are plenty of bear tracks on that trail. Plenty of bears too.

This group hiked past three tree stands on our property. A few weeks before the trespassers arrived, on opening day of bear archery season, two of those tree stands were occupied. One of the hunters got a massive black bear. When he took the skull to get it measured, it turned out to be the fourth largest black bear taken in the State of California!


----------



## unregistered353870

COWS said:


> Bears have been mentioned. Just for curiousity, since I have had no dealings with bears, will an electric fence keep them out?
> 
> COWS


Nope...unless it's a very unusual electric fence. The common 2-3 wire electric fence doesn't even slow them down.


----------



## COWS

Re hunting bears. Not too many areas of SC have a bear season. The county next to mine had a short open season and someone killed the largest bear on record is SC, 609 pounds. Occasionally bears pass through this area. Someone recently killed one illegally a few miles from me and they took pictures of it. Someone, not sure what the connection was, posted pictures on face book and the game wardens saw it and fined the guys, heavily.

Watch what you put on Facebook or Twitter.

COWS


----------



## Rustaholic

Anyone that thinks the pictures should go on facebook like this.

BUMMER I can't like my own post!!!!!


----------



## Common Tator

Both hunters had bear tags. I made sure of them before letting them hunt my land. They also signed release of liabilitys.


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## Common Tator

If the doc says it isn't her, the pictures will be all over the Internet, including Facebook.


----------



## a'ightthen

Really? It has been a full month now ( first post 10/11).

It might be time to become the UnCommon Tater  LOL

I admire your due diligence but shah dang ... fix it - get on with it 

Seems that ye are loaded with ammo ... but perhaps a bit spooked about pulling the trigger?

Add a blog ... folks captured on the farm without permission ... can anyone identify these folks/thieves? Pics

If you do not wish to run them off point blank ... shame them off.

I truly understand the aspect but it is time, surely, to either offer up your efforts free for all or batten down the hatches and call it history.

A new season is just around the corner.


----------



## a'ightthen

Honestly not trying to chide ye over this .... but ye have been fretting over it for a month now. Do that which ye must ... your sanity is worth more than exposing a thief.

It is what they made it ...


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Common Tator said:


> Both hunters had bear tags. I made sure of them before letting them hunt my land. They also signed release of liabilitys.


In most states a pre release of liability an't worth the paper it is wrote on . :bow:

I would of been on that sheriff ,DA and everyone with a position including the dog catcher about my thieves around day two :icecream:


----------



## a'ightthen

Sawmill Jim said:


> In most states a pre release of liability an't worth the paper it is wrote on . :bow:
> 
> I would of been on that sheriff ,DA and everyone with a position including the dog catcher about my thieves around day two :icecream:


 Known and accepted use ... 

"Both hunters had bear tags. I made sure of them before letting them hunt my land."

Thought the issue was thievery and trespassing?


----------



## Common Tator

a'ightthen said:


> Known and accepted use ...
> 
> "Both hunters had bear tags. I made sure of them before letting them hunt my land."
> 
> Thought the issue was thievery and trespassing?


In response to #257, 258.


----------



## fireweed farm

jtbrandt said:


> Nope...unless it's a very unusual electric fence. The common 2-3 wire electric fence doesn't even slow them down.


2-3 wire electric fences certainly WILL keep bears out if you set it up right. Electric fencing is a psychological barrier so you do need to have the bear lick or smell the hot wire prior to climbing through with their heavy coat. Easily done. 

I bet a 4-5 wire hot fence would keep the neighbors out of your trees. That would cost you a couple hundred bucks or less. The peace of mind would be priceless. Maybe it's time?


----------



## fireweed farm

duplicate


----------



## COWS

My comments about being careful about what someone puts on Facebook or Twitter were intended in a general sense and in no way were intended to apply to the op and the apple situation. Putting the apple thieves pics up sounds like a fine idea to me.

COWS


----------



## unregistered353870

fireweed farm said:


> 2-3 wire electric fences certainly WILL keep bears out if you set it up right. Electric fencing is a psychological barrier so you do need to have the bear lick or smell the hot wire prior to climbing through with their heavy coat. Easily done.
> 
> I bet a 4-5 wire hot fence would keep the neighbors out of your trees. That would cost you a couple hundred bucks or less. The peace of mind would be priceless. Maybe it's time?


I guess I've never gone to the trouble of getting bears to lick my fence...but I wasn't trying to keep them out. I've just noticed them going through my cattle fence like it's not even there.


----------



## COWS

Like I said, no experience with bears, but I suggest the way to get the bears to lick the fence would be peanut butter on aluminum foil strips with one end wrapped around the wire.

COWS


----------



## unregistered353870

COWS said:


> Like I said, no experience with bears, but I suggest the way to get the bears to lick the fence would be peanut butter on aluminum foil strips with one end wrapped around the wire.
> 
> COWS


I never even considered using electric fence to keep bears out...even old guys can learn new things. Don't have any problems with bears getting into stuff here, but I'll remember that if I ever do.


----------



## o&itw

Common Tator said:


> Both hunters had bear tags. I made sure of them before letting them hunt my land. They also signed release of liabilitys.


 
Hmm,

I guess you could get yourself a couple of "guardian" bears..... it would be a deterrent to me


----------



## Echoesechos

Have you filed a theft / burg report through the sheriff's office. That would be what I would do first. If the sheriff hadn't followed up with you by this time, he won't unless you initiate the claim with them. If he hasn't I would remember that come election time. They are under obligation to do their job, they in essence work for you as an elected official. We have the same issue in our county.


----------



## Riverdale

Humane leghold traps for the tresspassers. And supply them with cookies and honey.

Then wait for the bears to come. :gaptooth:


----------



## NamasteMama

What would I do? I certainly wouldnt ---- around for a month deciding thats what.


----------



## NamasteMama

Hmm, that work isnt a potty word, wonder why its bleeped out.


----------



## sdnapier

What about a big sign that says something like: 
walk in the country $10.00
bag of apples $20.00
Dead trespassers: priceless


----------



## clovis

Any updates?

The last cliff hanger is killing me.

I haven't been on the edge of my seat this much since the episode of "Who shot J.R?".


----------



## unregistered41671

clovis said:


> Any updates?
> 
> The last cliff hanger is killing me.
> 
> I haven't been on the edge of my seat this much since the episode of "Who shot J.R?".


Good one Clovis. Thanks


----------



## cab

So who shot JR?


__________________
If you *disagree* with a *CONSERVATIVE*, you will probably get waterboarded.

"Open Minded" = you must *not agree* with a LIBERAL.

Tolerance = making sure everyone shares your opinion.


----------



## Joshie

Chrisian camp? Umm, no! I think you have given them so many warnings that they don't think they mean it. I would send them a bill and call the sheriff. I wouldn't mess around anymore. I would also electrify the fence. 

Is the camp associated with any particular group? If they are Methodist or Presbyterian or the like I would report it to their denomination. Can you get a cooy of their camp group dates? If so, I would contact the churches involved that you will prosecute tresspassers and thieves. I would also bill them for damage and wear and tear to your fence. 

Argh, I didn't notice that this thread is ten pages long. Guess I have a lot of reading to do.


----------



## copperkid3

The main 'answer' 

can be found on page 2; post #36. Further reading will reveal the rest.


----------



## Just Little Me

Waiting for a update.


----------



## Buckhuntr

DW read this entire thread to me this afternoon while driving home from OKC. If the OP is SURE that the Doc is a perp, I'd suggest also sending a letter with photographic evidence to the CA medical licensing board. Any professional has to abide by a code of ethics monitored by that profession's licensing board, whether business or otherwise. That's another way to put some pressure on the Doc to make things right, or potentially face a licensing board inquiry.


----------



## Gaduchman

Common Tator said:


> We own a you-pick apple orchard in the mountains. It is surrounded by National Forest. Our closest full time neighbor is a Christian camp. They used to own our ranch, but sold it 19 years ago, at a tidy profit. Before selling, they transplanted 12 apple trees from the orchard over to their place. So it isn't like they don't have apples of heir own. However they sold our ranch to absentee owners. So the employees and guests of this camp continued to treat the place like they own it. Pillage the apple orchard.
> 
> Then we bought the place. Posted no trespassing signs, and started confronting people who ignored the signs. They were first asked not to do that. Then they were told in no uncertain terms to stop it immediately. The staff was instructing the guests to hike over to our place, and we asked them repeatedly to stop that. However we kept finding strangers on the ranch who told us that they were told to hike here.
> 
> Then they got large dogs and gave them free run. We didn't know who owned them. We just knew that they were chasing our livestock. I had a lengthy thread here about that. I had to stop there one day on business, and recognized the dogs. I researched state law and notified the camp that if the dogs came back to chase livestock, I would shoot the dogs, and the dogs owners would be liable for any damage or injury caused to our livestock by their dogs. It didn't stop until a short time later when the dogs were lunging at my donkey's throat. I called to tell them I was getting my gun. I didn't have to shoot the dogs, as they ran off when I got close enough yo get a good shot.
> 
> Fast forward to today. I have game cam footage of a group hiking in, with empty backpacks and shopping bags, and leaving with them full. And one of the dogs was with them.
> 
> We have owned this place 13 years, and they still ignore the law and do as they please.
> 
> Should I confront the camp with the photos, or just turn it over to the sheriff?


Turn it over to the County Sheriff and have him enforce the laws as they are written.

I had a similar experience with townies who insisted on tresspassing and hunting on our farm (890 ac) and advising others to do the same. It was adjacent to BLM, thru a gate and sign in area. 

I had a carload of NJ hunters drive 1/2 mi up to the house, passing a half dozen No signs along the way, opening gates and destroying a garden patch as they backed out. I took a photo of their plates and them. A couple days later I found a gut pile on top of my mailbox! I called the Sheriff and he called the USPS authorities who did the investigation. They found them thru dna - confiscating the deer and sending them a message. The sheriff took over on the game prosecution - $2000 fine each and five year license ban.
As non-residents they couldn't buy a license over the counter there or back in NJ either. After that no one tresspassed. It wasn't like we were carpetbaggers from back east. My grandparents homesteaded this farm in the 1800's.


----------



## Common Tator

The doc still hadn't picked up the letter.


----------



## Rustaholic

I hope you do not ever need that doctor.


----------



## unregistered5595

Thanks for the update.


----------



## am1too

Common Tator said:


> The doc still hadn't picked up the letter.


She ain't gonna neither. One its from you. Two it is from a lawyer. Trust me, I'm not a lawyer.


----------



## copperkid3

Rustaholic said:


> I hope you do not ever need that doctor.


+ + + + + + + 
The bill's already been paid in full . . . 

Bartered with apples!:bouncy:


----------



## Molly Mckee

If she doesn't pick up her letter I would leave a message with her receptionist that you want to talk to her about the trespassing and stealing at your ranch. Let her know that it won't just go away.


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## unregistered353870

Or send a process server to her office...avoiding you only makes things worse for her.


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## Joshie

Why hasn't the sheriff done anything? Have you gone to his office to speak with him? I'd document all contact, even with the law.


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## Kristinemomof3

This is taking way too long to resolve, the longer it takes, the less serious people are going to take you. I would get on it NOW!


----------



## Common Tator

Hey! The doc finally picked up her mail! Things should finally progress now!


----------



## AngieM2

Thanks for the update. I've been reading and watching for the outcome.


----------



## Bellyman

Now we'll just see how interesting this will get. Probably the least dramatic would be the doc writing a check. Wouldn't be surprised... but anxious to see!! No doubt she'll want to consult her own attorney just to make sure she really is in deep doodoo first, but ya never know.

I bought a building about 20 years ago that was a rental at the time. It was being rented as two storage units, one to me, one to another couple in town. I never received one rent check. Not a single one. I didn't push the issue at the time as I had other things way more pressing. Somewhere around 6 or 8 months later, I finally ran into them and asked them to move their stuff out. "Oh, we've been paying the rent all along." I asked, "to who?" and they somehow realized they hadn't paid me one thin dime. I honestly don't remember if they ever did pay me or not. I didn't care. All I really wanted was the space they were occupying, which I got shortly thereafter. Some people really just don't have a good grasp on some parts of reality, some of the more highly educated being some of the worst offenders of things they perceive as "little stuff". 

Thanks for the update, Tater!

(Also, hope that bout of respiratory distress is in the past.)


----------



## wottahuzzee

Common Tator said:


> Hey! The doc finally picked up her mail! Things should finally progress now!


Oh my. So the applesauce is hitting the fan right about now?


----------



## Peace n Quiet

Any update?


----------



## Rustaholic

I am pretty sure that when something happens Common Tater will post again.


----------



## unregistered41671

Rustaholic said:


> I am pretty sure that when something happens Common Tater will post again.


Yep, I am sure Tator is wanting to tell it, just as bad as we want to hear it.


----------



## Bellyman

Yup. 

This is a thread I'm always checking on. 

Funny thing is, the older I get, the more interested I am in fruit trees (and grape vines). And even though I haven't given much thought to a "U-pick" operation, it's certainly a situation that catches my attention as something that could happen anyway. 

I am thankful that Tator has been so open with us in telling us about the situation. Could be a learning experience for us all!


----------



## Common Tator

I will post again when things happen. We've had a bad week for trying yo get on the Internet. The wireless router at our house in the burbs died early in the week. So we switched yo the mobile hotspot we use at the ranch. It died too. Today I bought a new hotspot. We try yo avoid locking in to contracts. So this was pretty spendy. We ordered another wireless router and it should be here Monday or Tuesday.

I'll be checking the PO box for the ranch tomorrow, with special interest to see if the doc responded.


----------



## Common Tator

I checked the PO box, and there is a letter from the doc, with a check for a fraction of what I asked for. She claims she only took enough for a pie. She claims that there were no apples in the backpack and just a few in the tote. 

She also claims that in 1994, a friend took her to the ranch, and told her to ignore the no trespassing signs, because it was National Forest. That was the year the SDA folks sold the ranch. And they are the only ones to ever give me the excuse that it "reverted to National Forest". She also claims that the public trail that goes around our property without ever coming closer than 1/4 mile of our place, actually goes through it. In reading through her four page letter, virtually none of her claims are correct.

And then she chides me that I don't own the whole trail. 

I've got some thinking to do, and some writing.

But when I opened the envelope and pulled out the check, hubby's eyes lit up, and he yelled "take it, and send her a thank you card!" He is excitable around checks.

I need to reread the letter and formulate a reply. I will probably be sending the check back, along with corrections to everything she said that is wrong. I don't need her to be out repeating to others the misstatements that she said to me about the public trail coming through our property. I will negotiate on price, but it won't accept what she sent.


----------



## unregistered41671

If you take her ck, it _*may*_ be considered Full Payment.


----------



## unregistered5595

If she was giving the false information to all the people she was with, leading them to the apple trees......was she just a ringleader to stealing the apples? (sorry if I have it wrong)
She admits to stealing.
She admits to trespassing.


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## jkhs

I definitely wouldn't cash her check without consulting a lawyer first. She has admitted, in writing, that she both trespassed AND stole from you and I don't believe that claiming ignorance as to who owns the property would be a legal excuse.


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## Rustaholic

That DR is insulting you. Do not accept one dollar less.
Do you have pictures of them going in and coming back out?


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## dizzy

I'm thinking that whoever said to take her on Judge Judy has the right idea. She has no proof as to how much she took. She led others there. She has admitted to both stealing and trespassing, both punishable by law. 

What she was told does not matter. She has now admitted to going there as far back as 1994. I'm sure she's been taking apples all along, and I'm sure that in all that time, she's taken MORE than enough for 1 pie. And, she's led others there, so that makes her an accessory to a crime. As has been said, do NOT cash that check. I know that in many places that is considered accepting it as payment in full. She might know that and is hoping you don't.


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## Common Tator

I'm not cashing the check.


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## wottahuzzee

Hold her feet to the fire. I know you said in Cali there is a law that gives quadruple damages or some such for stealing from farms. Go for that, and ask for damages for as long as you have owned the orchard since she admits to going there. You probably won't get it all but you may be able to negotiate to what you want. And since you have it in writing, I would make sure the sheriff gets a copy and I would insist that she is cited for her misdeeds. Also if you can figure out the other people from her facebook page, make sure you call them as witnesses. Then when you get the favorable outcome in court, forward all documents to the licensing authority. She is just arrogant and she knows better. Make her twitch every time she sees an apple in the future.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

I agree, her arrogance would aggravate me to no end. By sending a check she ADMITS to what she was doing, no matter the circumstances or amount. Her check and letter could be very ----ing in court.....


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## Pennsyltucky

I would seriously consider taking her to small claims court. You would win, almost without a doubt, due to her admission of guilt in the letter.


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## nightfire

You also should make sure to make a copy of the check if you end up sending it back to her. In case she tries saying she never sent one. Then you'd have proof she did!


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## Bellyman

Running it past an Atty would be a good thing to do BEFORE sending the check back. You may need an original document to bolster your case.

Glad you did get a response. She's trying to minimize the offence. Had she offered the full amount plus a little and then asked for forgiveness, I might be tempted to bury the hatchet. But she's not demonstrated remorse. She's sorry she got caught. She's making excuses.

Glad to know you are in a good position legally. She needs a lesson. Maybe not a burning at the stake, but it needs to smart enough for her to feel it.

Thanks for the update!!


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## unregistered353870

Don't return the check! Even if you don't intend to cash it now, keep it and demand the balance owed. You should check your laws, but I think you can cash the check and add "partial payment" or something to that effect along with your endorsement. That should protect your claim against the balance, especially if she didn't write "payment in full" on the check. Keep a copy of both sides if you do cash it.

ETA: Found this information about cashing a check for less than the amount owed: http://www.town-usa.com/workplace/check.html. Worth reading the whole thing, but here's a relevant snippet:



> All 50 states have, in one version or another, a provision contained in the Uniform Commercial Code(UCC). *Some states* interpret Section 1-207 of the UCC to *permit you to reserve your rights in writing and accept the check without losing the right to sue for the remaining balance.* Other states allow you to reserve this right only under limited circumstances. Still other states have nixed this right altogether.


And this is important too:


> *You have to make a decision. Send the check back, and you may never see that money again.*


----------



## Steve in PA

Whatever happened to the sheriff that was supposed to be involved with this? I know he was on vacation but I don't remember anything about him after he returned. That's who is paid to and should be handling this affair.

You even have more evidence to give to him now.


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## clovis

If nothing else, the doctor should be reminded that you will take this to the state licensing board for review.

Yeah, and whatever happened to the sheriff? If the sheriff paid a polite visit to her office and reminded her to 'settle this the easy way', the whole ordeal could end quickly for both of you.

And, by the way, why hasn't the sheriff been out to explain to those folks that you do own the land, with copies of your deed and survey in hand, and any further trespass will earn them a trip to the county lock up?

One option is just to sue the camp, and settle the issue then, or use...dag gone it...I can't remember the term for it...when two parties negotiate with an appointed judge outside of court. 

I don't mean to sound harsh, CT, but it is time to stop soft shoeing around with the people at the camp. 

Let a judge figure it out.


----------



## dizzy

I think you mean either arbitration or mediation.


----------



## DarleneJ

Formulate your responses to her claims for the judge. I would have no further communication with her unless she sends you a valid check for the amount you originally asked. It is clear she is already playing games and will only cause this to drag on and on. Sending you a check for a bag of apples is absurd. The stolen apples were not for sale on her terms.

Also, don't cash the check or send it back to her. Keep it for evidence to submit in court.


----------



## jingle5616

Cash the check! Then file in small claims. There is nothing in that keeps you from going for the rest of your claim just because you cashed a check.


----------



## Common Tator

The memo line on the check says "Apples for one Pie". BTW, I think she is lying about that. 

I have a PrePaid Legal membership. I'll call them to discuss the matter, get advice on Monday.


----------



## Lisa in WA

If it were me, I wouldn't be worrying so much about the money for the apples but to stop the trespassing. She's admitted she's trespassed..how about a restraining order keeping her from doing it again? No one really likes to have one of those on their record and then they will know you mean business.


----------



## Patchouli

I would get on the Sheriff to do something and then I would take her to small claims court and be sure and get some form of media involved. A Doctor stealing from a small farmer is guaranteed to attract attention from the news.


----------



## MDKatie

Apples for one pie? That's about 5 or 6 apples. Who is going to go through the trouble of hiking allll the way to the apples to only take 6?


----------



## unregistered5595

I would probably get all my thoughts on paper before talking with a lawyer.
Something like this:

I'd make a copy of the letter she sent you. On the copy, put a line through her factual lies with a red pen, then the arguments based on those lies, put a line through them in black.

Based on the lies, you don't believe she only had 6 apples, you believe her tote was full of apples as well as any other things she was carrying.

Since she felt comfortable with those lies for so many years, you believe she shared that false information with the other 6 people (however many). Each of them also stole apples and trespassed. These friends of hers may have also passed on this false information to their friends as well and have trespassed and stolen apples.

Since she has used this false information since 200X, you believe her and 6 people have stolen from you each year since you've owned the farm.

Pick more exacting amounts.
She stole 1/2 bushel of apples for the past say, 10 years. (?number of years) She brought 6 people with her doing the same.
1/2 bushel X 10 years X 7 people = 35 bushels of apples. You want payment for them and interest payments for years 1 - 9.

(you know the judge or mediator will give in to each side)

If it is a farm, can you prove it is a farm? Do you have the statute about damages being 4 times the amount?

What do you have proof of?
Admission of trespassing, stealing, false information.

In as much as you just want to get along, and you don't want to punish severely, the only thing a lawyer or court care about is the $$ with regard to the missing apples. 

Ask the court through the attorney, to charge the defendant for all filing fees and your costs to bring it to court. You probably won't get it, but ask anyways.


----------



## Molly Mckee

She admits in the letter that she knows the camp sold the ranch in 1994 or whenever. She's a doctor, she can read a no trespassing sign and she also should know that the state of CA would be the owner on the sign if they owned the land. She could have asked you if she wanted to be sure that you owned the land or checked the tax records. It's a small town, she knows you have a u-pick orchard She decided to steal and to encourage others to as well. She's nothing but a common thief, who thinks she can do as she wants. I am sure she can afford to buy apples if she wants them. I bet she did not think the church\camp should sell the land and decided to ignore the sale for some reason.

I'm surprised the Seventh Day Adventist church hasn't done something about the camp supervisors allowing her and others to do this, although they still may. A lot of people have read this thread, and wonder what kind of church would condone this type of behavior. Not good publicity for the Seventh Day Adventist church either.


----------



## Common Tator

Molly, I'm also sure that most of the trespassers at the ranch that came from the church camp feel that the ranch shouldn't have been sold. And that is why they have continued to treat it as their own.

Edited to add; this was especially the case with the camp manager who used to send camp visitors to hike to our place, long after they had sold it, and despite my requests that he stop. He had spent his formative years there when our ranch was a Boy Scout camp. He lived there with the camp ranger. He always thought if it as home.


----------



## DEKE01

You guys who want to hire lawyers and get restraining orders and such, certainly do not have a problem spending the OP's money. 

Small Claims COurt is a lot of trouble for those who don't know the process, but it is a valid and affordable approach that does not require a lawyer. Depending on the rules within that state, the loser usually pays court costs. The trouble will be proving damages. Speculating that the doc has done this for years will most likely not mean anything in court. It is only what you can prove. Seeing bulging backpacks, the judge may decide they were full of apples, but he might only decide that the 6 the woman admitted to was the total damages she is responsible for. I think it applies in small claims, the judge can say that the doc is responsible for the total damages of all the trespassing pickers which would be the ideal outcome. You just don't know if you are going to get a judge who follows the absolute letter of the law or one who gets aggravated by rather stupid excuses of the doc. 

In Florida there is a mandatory attempt at arbitration, but both parties have to agree to a settlement or it goes back into court. 

There is probably legal action to take against the neighboring church camp, but that will surely require a lawyer. I don't know if a few dozen pounds of apples is worth the cost. I know I would want to fight this thing with all guns a blazing, but the OP has to weigh the financial costs.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I used to go to small claims court for the doctor I worked for sometimes. We always got what we asked for, he only went after people who could pay but would not, however getting the money you are awarded is not always easy.


----------



## Finally Home

If you return the check, make sure she has to sign for it so she can't claim you never returned it.


----------



## Common Tator

If I return the check, it would be with a return receipt requested letter. I'll talk to PrePaid Legal today or tomorrow to see what they say about how best to handle the check issue.


----------



## am1too

Common Tator said:


> I checked the PO box, and there is a letter from the doc, with a check for a fraction of what I asked for. She claims she only took enough for a pie. She claims that there were no apples in the backpack and just a few in the tote.
> 
> She also claims that in 1994, a friend took her to the ranch, and told her to ignore the no trespassing signs, because it was National Forest. That was the year the SDA folks sold the ranch. And they are the only ones to ever give me the excuse that it "reverted to National Forest". She also claims that the public trail that goes around our property without ever coming closer than 1/4 mile of our place, actually goes through it. In reading through her four page letter, virtually none of her claims are correct.
> 
> And then she chides me that I don't own the whole trail.
> 
> I've got some thinking to do, and some writing.
> 
> But when I opened the envelope and pulled out the check, hubby's eyes lit up, and he yelled "take it, and send her a thank you card!" He is excitable around checks.
> 
> I need to reread the letter and formulate a reply. I will probably be sending the check back, along with corrections to everything she said that is wrong. I don't need her to be out repeating to others the misstatements that she said to me about the public trail coming through our property. I will negotiate on price, but it won't accept what she sent.


Except nothing but your full request. If she isn't willing within a required time tell she can talk to your lawyer and possibly a judge. Make sure you carry through.

Don't dialog about the issues she made except to say private property isn't public national forest and you hold title/deed to the property.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

am1too said:


> Except nothing but your full request. If she isn't willing within a required time tell she can talk to your lawyer and possibly a judge. Make sure you carry through.
> 
> Don't dialog about the issues she made except to say private property isn't public national forest and you hold title/deed to the property.


Yep tell her it will be her job to prove otherwise ,and you are willing to give her a chance to tell it to the judge . Charge her with everything in the book for starters ,trespassing ,trespassing with intent to commit a theft and theft .Sign a warrant for her arrest before the statute of limitation runs out :thumb: :hammer:


----------



## Common Tator

When I first got the doc's name, I looked her up. I found her Facebook page, which is set to public. I took screen shots of pictures that were taken of the group on the same day that they came to my ranch. All wearing the same clothes as in my trail cam pictures, except the little girl changed into long pants for the hike.

The pictures mysteriously disappeared after she received my letter. Funny about that.

Her letter informed me that there were two more people that she brought to the ranch that day than I was previously aware of. The trail cam takes pictures every few seconds. The two others must have made it past the cameras. Between shots. However one of the pictures from her Facebook page has three kids. The little girl, and two teenage looking boys. She mentioned three kids in her letter. So I'm assuming that the two teenagers were the other kids.

As for the suggestions that I contact the medical board, I don't want to do that. I have no desire to be punitive and reduce her ability to earn a living. I really want to be compensated for my losses and the time and expense I've put into this. And if she has to go through the embarrassment trouble and expense, hopefully, this will be a learning moment for her.

As for the Sheriff, he seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. I haven't heard back. I don't want to be too much of a pain because I might need him in the future for something really big. It is clear that he doesn't understand what it means to a small farmer when someone steals your crop.

It is much different when you have a small window of opportunity each year to sell your crop and make some money from a year's worth of work. In my case, the crop is apples. If someone were to walk into a chain grocery store and take the same amount of apples and walk out without paying, of course the police would come, and make the arrest. And the store would go into the cold storage and wheel out more apples to replace the ones that were stolen. Those apples almost certainly have pesticides. They may be pretty on the outside, but you bite into a mouth full of mush, because they have been sitting in cold storage for the last two years. They may be from Chile, or China.

I don't offer any of that. My apples are completely organic, delicious. You don't have to wonder what you are getting, because you pick it fresh from the tree yourself. Agritourism at its finest. When someone steals from me, the apples won't be replaced until the following year. So when the opportunity avails itself, I will have this discussion with the Sheriff. Hopefully he will be more responsive to myself and other farmers and ranchers in the future.


----------



## Steve in PA

You seem to be quite non-confrontational about this. That is certainly your right. One of my sister's ex-boyfriends broke into my car and stole a bunch of items from me in the past. I knew right away it was him because of the items.

I hounded the police daily until they made an arrest and hounded the magistrate until they collected the restitution. Those people are collecting fat salaries, benefits, and pensions at my expense so they are gonna do their job! This was over about $100.

I don't think you have the desire to doggedly pursue this until the end. Instead, I'd recommend you take out an advertisement in the local paper. Use one of your trailcam pics as the background and put type over it that says, "(Your farm name) is private property and has been since (year you bought it). We're open for business but tress passing and theft will not be tolerated"

End of story.

PS. No offense meant.


----------



## Common Tator

This isn't just a letter writing campaign. If the doc doesn't pay up willingly, I will take her to small claims court.


----------



## unregistered5595

> Her letter informed me that there were two more people that she brought to the ranch that day than I was previously aware of. The trail cam takes pictures every few seconds. The two others must have made it past the cameras. Between shots. However one of the pictures from her Facebook page has three kids. The little girl, and two teenage looking boys. She mentioned three kids in her letter. So I'm assuming that the two teenagers were the other kids.


Contributing to the delinquency of a minor too?


----------



## Common Tator

I just heard back from the lawyer. He said that she has admitted to doing this for years. File small claims, have her served. Don't cash the check. Take it to court with me. 

So that's what I am going to do.


----------



## Common Tator

Feather In The Breeze said:


> Contributing to the delinquency of a minor too?


Three minors.


----------



## Bellyman

Common Tator said:


> I just heard back from the lawyer. He said that she has admitted to doing this for years. File small claims, have her served. Don't cash the check. Take it to court with me.
> 
> So that's what I am going to do.


:goodjob:


----------



## clovis

Common Tator said:


> As for the suggestions that I contact the medical board, I don't want to do that. I have no desire to be punitive and reduce her ability to earn a living. .


No offense, CT, but she is reducing your ability to earn a living each and every time she steals from you.


----------



## Horseyrider

Common Tator said:


> I just heard back from the lawyer. He said that she has admitted to doing this for years. File small claims, have her served. Don't cash the check. Take it to court with me.
> 
> So that's what I am going to do.


I'm late coming into this, but I have to say that this approach makes a great deal of sense to me. I also appreciate that you're being very circumspect in your approach. There is a huge difference between standing your ground and being vindictive. No doubt the judge will see this too, and that will work in your favor. You're not looking to be punitive; just to maintain your boundaries and protect what's yours within the scope of the law. 

I admire your restraint and careful judgment. :thumb:


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## unregistered5595

As a preventative measure for next year.
Each day, go to the orchard to pick an apple, so you will notice who is there and if any are missing.

An apple a day keeps the doctor away.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Common Tator said:


> I just heard back from the lawyer. He said that she has admitted to doing this for years. File small claims, have her served. Don't cash the check. Take it to court with me.
> 
> So that's what I am going to do.


I think the lawyer is nuts too. In most states it is the county attorney and Sheriffs job to presue crooks , arrest and prosecute them .If the Sheriff is no good for a small thing i wouldn't trust him with a bigger thing .gre:


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## Common Tator

clovis said:


> No offense, CT, but she is reducing your ability to earn a living each and every time she steals from you.


No offense taken. She won't be back. She's been stealing from me for years, I now know.

Think about it. It is a long, dry thirsty hike, through rugged terrain. By next apple season, we will have improved our fencing so that she couldn't possibly get through it. She is getting on in years, and is quite obese. Probably quite sedentary most of the time. In her letter, she said she hasn't been well, and it believe it. She doesn't look healthy in the trail cam shots.

This experience, being caught like this has been humiliating to her already. She knows that I showed her picture around to get an ID. I told her that in the last letter. I also told her that I provided the picture to the sheriff, and told him I wanted to prosecute. She knows that. That will be running through her head when she interacts with people from that small, tiny little berg she lives in. Who saw those pictures? Who knows what I did?

And this will be very costly for her. I may get what I am asking for. I may get less. I certainly won't get less than the check she already wrote. So she will have to explain herself to a judge. She will have to take time off from her busy medical practice to o to court and explain her actions. 

She isn't going to want to go through this again. And I am going to be getting reimbursed.


----------



## Common Tator

Sawmill Jim said:


> If the Sheriff is no good for a small thing i wouldn't trust him with a bigger thing .gre:


Not this Sheriff. He handled himself quite admirably when Christopher Dorner had his spectacular shootout in a cabin only about a mile and a half from our ranch, as the crow flies.

A few years ago, someone stole our ATV from the ranch. I called him to report it. He asked if we had licensed it with the state. We had never heard that that was an option. We bought the thing new, and the dealer never mentioned it. But this sheriff took the report, and a few months later, we got our ATV back!

I would rather have a sheriff that is willing to spring into action when things get real. I'm willing to overlook him not wanting to pursue something he considers small.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Good for you, Tator! Not only will that Dr. not steal from you again, but the public consequences should be a deterrent to others.


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## Nimrod

If you take her to small claims court she will not subject herself to the humiliation of appearing in front of a judge or the inconvenience of missing work. She will simply not show up. She is not obligated to show up. 

When she doesn't show up, you will automatically win so file for the value of the apples she and the people she brought with her stole over the years. There is a maximum amount allowed by small claims court. It would work out nicely if the amount you are seeking is the maximum.

The amount of money you win in small claims court will be a minor amount to a doctor. She probably will not pay it and there is not much you can do to collect. What you can do is send a copy of the judgement to each of the 3 credit reporting agencies. When the judgement is on her credit report, she will be unable to take out a loan for a car or a mortgage for a house until the judgement is satisfied. This may force her to pay up.

If you want her to suffer public humiliation you can get the sheriff and prosecutor off their buts and have them charge her and take her to court. She will have to show up for a criminal proceeding. This should be a slam dunk since she has admitted her guilt in her letter.

I also like the idea of putting the trail cam pictures on facebook and publicly humiliating her. This would also embarrass the other people in the photos.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Common Tator said:


> I just heard back from the lawyer. He said that she has admitted to doing this for years. File small claims, have her served. Don't cash the check. Take it to court with me.
> 
> So that's what I am going to do.


 Yay! Yay!
That's my Tator.


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## ChristieAcres

Tator, I really have to add... You are truly a kind fair person, a rarity in these days! I feel you should stay on the high road of the just consequences being meted out legally. Then, move onward, putting this behind you. I'd skip anything with FB...


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## unregistered5595

Good job Tater.

What is the price of organic apples picked at their peak? (per/lb)


----------



## unregistered353870

Common Tator said:


> As for the suggestions that I contact the medical board, I don't want to do that. I have no desire to be punitive and reduce her ability to earn a living.


I probably wouldn't go to the medical board either if I were in your position, but I might let her think I would do it with a halfway-subtle implication. I use whatever leverage I can get when people rip me off, especially when they are difficult after being caught.


----------



## Common Tator

lorichristie said:


> Tator, I really have to add... You are truly a kind fair person, a rarity in these days! I feel you should stay on the high road of the just consequences being meted out legally. Then, move onward, putting this behind you. I'd skip anything with FB...


That is my plan.


----------



## wottahuzzee

Common Tator said:


> As for the suggestions that I contact the medical board, I don't want to do that. I have no desire to be punitive and reduce her ability to earn a living. I really want to be compensated for my losses and the time and expense I've put into this. And if she has to go through the embarrassment trouble and expense, hopefully, this will be a learning moment for her.


Be aware that in most states if you have a professional license you must report if you have been convicted of a crime, even a misdemeanor. 

I knew a person who was a shoplifter -- he had some mental issues, family issues, he was smart as a whip but a thief. I liked palling around with him as a friend, not my type, nor was I his, but I started having anxiety attacks going shopping with him and had to stop. After he finished school and got his RN license, one time he had been out shopping and I asked about something, rather sarcastically, did you swipe that? Hell, no, I've got a professional license now. Depending on the circumstances, he could have lost that license or been put on some sort of probation if he had been arrested. (ETA: As he matured, got counseling, and got some of his issues straightened out, he stopped completely and was actually quite ashamed of what he had done.)

So if she is convicted or even pleas, she will most likely have to self report to the licensing board.


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## Common Tator

Since the sheriff didn't arrest her, I think all criminal conviction concerns are off the table. 

Small claims court is civil. It shouldn't effect her license.


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## whiterock

Just put the doc's glutes in a sling will ya?


----------



## copperkid3

Common Tator said:


> Since the sheriff didn't arrest her, I think all criminal conviction concerns are off the table.
> 
> Small claims court is civil. It shouldn't effect her license.


+ + + + + + + + + 
entirely true . . . yet! Nimrod has given you spot-on advice,

on the most likely outcome of coming events related to the

case. But a lot depends on the timing . . .and first things first.

Begin by filing civilly in small claims court. Once you win, 

regardless if she tries to settle or not (and I wouldn't be holding

my breath waiting for another payment from her), I'd take the 

judgment straight to the county prosecutor and request that he

file criminal charges. I would only do this after giving the sheriff

one last chance to do his job. Prosecutors (and sheriff's) both

like slam-dunk cases that they can easily win. Both hold offices

that face re-election by the populace. However, neither like to

handle political hot potatoes . . . and as I suggested in an earlier post,

they could be connected to the camp or the church in some way

that you are not aware of at present. Depending on what you feel

is needed and can live with, then hold their feet to the fire if necessary.

If successful in both civil and criminal courts, word will spread 

and theft of apples at the Common Tater Orchard, will forever cease!


----------



## Jennifer L.

I would suggest that you don't put this behind you too fast. That doctor belongs to a the organization that runs that camp. They may call it a Christian camp, but seeing as how you've been treated all of these years by the members and the people who run it, it's really nothing more than their personal "club", and while the doctor may take her medicine if you force it on her (and you are), some other members may decide to do you a mischief if they can. I would be on high alert during apple season for the next few years until you see how they decide to handle it. You took something away from them that they like and they are running in a pack and you know what that's like.

You are doing a great job of handling things, a lot better than I would have. I hope the doctor pays up and you have no more trouble from them.


----------



## fordy

Common Tator said:


> Since the sheriff didn't arrest her, I think all criminal conviction concerns are off the table.
> 
> Small claims court is civil. It shouldn't effect her license.


 .............Doctors have 'Ethics' boards that they must deal with just as they are responsible for the quality of their actual medical practice , there is nothing preventing you from informing 'Her' Ethics board relative to her LACK of Ethics in the theft of your apples ! Maybe it won't effect her medical practice , but , they will surely ask her for an explanation . 
..............You need to 'Bite' her in as many places as possible to motivitate her to settle and stop stealing your apples . , fordy


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## oneokie

Something to think about since you provided the Dr. with copies of the trail cam pics.

Change the location of the camera/s if possible.


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## whiterock

And point a camera at the fence, so they can be seen crossing it, both coming and goin. That fence will slow them down enough to get better pics, and show what they are totin away.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

I hate to sound cynical, but sheriffs are elected officials. I doubt seriously he's going to do anything to a doctor who has "friends in high places" over some apples. Deer netting and chicken wire is pretty cheap. Maybe you could reinforce your fence with some of that.... something they would have to actually cut to get through. If you got pictures of that on your trail cam, then that possibly moves up to a criminal trespass or a criminal damage to property charge. That definitely makes it harder for a sheriff to ignore. I'd go ape with the "no trespassing" signs with the name of your farm on them all down that fence line too so there would be no mistaking whose property they were standing on. Hey, how about some sort of badges your customers could clip on when they come pick apples? Like when you're a visitor in a big business or your kids' school? That would help differentiate on the camera who is supposed to be there and who is not. If they come through your front gate they get a visitor's badge.... Those little plastic pouches with the clip on them are pretty cheap. That way if you happen upon someone who came over the fence, there's no way they could say "Yeah, I walked right through your front gate, you just didn't see me." Don't remember back in the thread, but a full motion video camera on your front entrance might be a good idea too to separate the good from the bad. Set it up so it records everybody who comes through "legally".


----------



## Patchouli

Common Tator said:


> Not this Sheriff. He handled himself quite admirably when Christopher Dorner had his spectacular shootout in a cabin only about a mile and a half from our ranch, as the crow flies.
> 
> A few years ago, someone stole our ATV from the ranch. I called him to report it. He asked if we had licensed it with the state. We had never heard that that was an option. We bought the thing new, and the dealer never mentioned it. But this sheriff took the report, and a few months later, we got our ATV back!
> 
> I would rather have a sheriff that is willing to spring into action when things get real. I'm willing to overlook him not wanting to pursue something he considers small.


Since he was on vacation when you made the report is it possible he just never heard about it? Someone else in the office decided it wasn't important and filed it away without him ever seeing it?


----------



## Common Tator

I emailed the pictures to the Sheriff directly. I called him on his cell, and that was when I found out that he was on vacation.


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## unregistered5595

Common Tator said:


> I emailed the pictures to the Sheriff directly. I called him on his cell, and that was when I found out that he was on vacation.


But has he seen or received a copy of the incriminating admissions in the letter?


----------



## Common Tator

Feather In The Breeze said:


> But has he seen or received a copy of the incriminating admissions in the letter?



I haven't sent him a copy of the letter.


----------



## unregistered5595

Common Tator said:


> I haven't sent him a copy of the letter.


I believe if it were me, I'd send a copy of the letter. With that, a written statement that it was your land she was trespassing on, stealing from and that she had false information. Mention contributing to delinquency of a minor (or three). Let him know you are taking her to small claims court. Ask him to pursue charges on her and request that he gets back to you on that.


----------



## unregistered41671

Common Tator said:


> I emailed the pictures to the Sheriff directly. I called him on his cell, and that was when I found out that he was on vacation.


I read your other posts re: the sheriff. I thought he should have responded to you long ago, at least a few days after he got back. If not, he certainly would not get my vote and I would make a point to tell him why not.


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## Common Tator

I call him a sheriff, but he is a sheriff's deputy. One of hundreds on the force.


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## unregistered41671

Common Tator said:


> I call him a sheriff, but he is a sheriff's deputy. One of hundreds on the force.


Understand, lots of difference. Maybe you ought to go higher.


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## Lazy J

Common Tator said:


> I call him a sheriff, but he is a sheriff's deputy. One of hundreds on the force.


Well there is the problem! Go to the sheriff's office with you're evidence and file a complaint using the official channels. I would also suggest contacting the local conservation office.


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## Common Tator

What is a local conservation office?


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## Lazy J

Common Tator said:


> What is a local conservation office?


http://www.dfg.ca.gov/enforcement/districts/northern.aspx


----------



## DryHeat

I think getting some feedback from your prepaid legal service would be a very good idea at this stage. They'd likely give good info on what is likely, or realistic, given state laws and local social and political realities as well. A couple of other points to ask about or at least keep in mind: beware of saying anything to listeners that you can't outright prove as true, the doc might wind up with some witness who would testify you'd called her a "thief" or whatever and decide a suit against you for slander or libel or defamation would be in order, depending on how deep her pockets are. There's another legal technicality that I don't see mentioned often, and am not sure exists in Cali, even, anyway, but that you might ask about to be sure you don't run afoul of, "misuse of process." This, to my understanding, is itself a criminal offense that can occur IF a person claiming financial damage and seeking payment ALSO files criminal charges or gets them filed, or threatens to do so. If that develops, the two situations, civil/financial, and criminal, are supposed to stay independent. It's looked at as something like blackmail if the plaintiff seeking a civil judgement says (outright at least, and maybe even if hinted or implied) in effect, "Pay me $$ and I'll see the *criminal* part of this goes away (or doesn't happen)." It seems to me that lawyers negotiate quid pro quo arrangements in disputes that sound like that all the time but the clients don't seem to be supposed to try to intimidate each other by threatening to swear out criminal arrest warrants if financial damage demands aren't met.


----------



## Common Tator

Lazy J said:


> http://www.dfg.ca.gov/enforcement/districts/northern.aspx


I The Dept of fish & Game doesn't spend much time up there. Since my problem doesn't involve fish or game, I doubt they have any authority here.


----------



## Lazy J

Common Tator said:


> I The Dept of fish & Game doesn't spend much time up there. Since my problem doesn't involve fish or game, I doubt they have any authority here.


Fish and Game deal with trespassing all the time.

I'm getting the feeling that this "problem" won't be resolved.


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## Common Tator

I understand Fish & Game deal with trespassing for hunting. On our business card, I call Hubby & I "Apple Wranglers". Well, it's not that impressive. The apples don't put up much of a fight. And so Fish & Game isn't interested. Fish & Game is more interested in someone poaching game than they are in poached apples.

We have had a lot of damage done to our structures and trees by bears. We had bears breaking into one of our storage sheds every night. A bear broke into hubby's car and did so much damage that the insurance company declared it a total loss. So I contacted Fish & Game about getting a bear depridation permit. The guy set an appointment to come meet with us. Hubby took the day off of work to meet with him. We waited all day. He never showed up, never called back. I called his boss and complained. And they left it at that. I can make a nuisance of myself, in fact I'm good at it. I just can't force people to do their jobs.

Here is a copy & paste of what the doc would face if the Sheriff were to act.
*Under section 602.8 of the California Penal Code, a trespass on a farm or ranch is an infraction punishable by a $75 fine for a first offense, and by $250 for a second offense. A third or later offense is a misdemeanor that carries a penalty of imprisonment in the county jail for up to six months or a fine of up to $1,000, or both.
*
And that money would go to the state. It doesn't compensate me for my losses.

As for the doc suing me for slander, I doubt that would happen. I haven't mentioned her name. I haven't done anything to tell the public who she is. Just don't go looking for Dr. Stickyfingers on the interwebs.

And she acknowledged in her letter, kind of, that she stole the apples. If she were to sue for slander, truth is an absolute defense. Between that and the trail cam pictures, I don't think she would win. I don't think she would want that kind of publicity and humiliation.

At this point, I see these options.

1. Accept the check and be done with it. 

No. I don't like this option. The check is for less than my actual damages. She has been doing this for years. She has brought others to our ranch, taught them how to get there. In her letter, she twisted the truth to the breaking point to justify her actions, if she were to repeat the things she said to others, they may come looking to steal apples too, thinking that this ranch and orchard in neat rows just sprung up in the Forest.

2. Take her to small claims court and ask for the full amount.

I'll probably get it.

3. Take her to small claims court, and press the sheriff to do his job. If he were to do so under the law posted above, he would treat it as a first offense, there would be a record of it with the state. She would pay a $75 fine. 

I may press the sheriff to act after I win the small claims case. I have no idea if he will do anything, but I can ask again. If I call the Sheriff's Department, they will refer it back to the same guy for two reasons. He is in charge of the rural crimes task force, and he is the guy assigned to our local area. He isn't an unreasonable guy. I think he blew it off because it's just "small apples" to him.

I don't want to give the impression that there is any threat of criminal action to the doc if she doesn't pony up. If I were to press for the sheriff to act, it wouldn't benefit me in any way, other than to create a premanant record. And I do want a permanant record. She probably won't come back, but if she did, I want that to be a second offense. And the Sheriff already knows all about this. I sent him the pictures and called him before I wrote to the doc.


----------



## Rustaholic

Common Tator, You really NEED to edit that last Paragraph.


----------



## hercsmama

I would take all the evidence she so nicely provided for you, and take her to court.
Do make a point of making sure the Sheriff filed a report on this, though. No charges need to be filed at this time, but having them file the report, leaves a nice paper trail , if she does come back in the future.


----------



## Patchouli

Since you already filed a report with the police I would send them the letter and information you have collected and just ask them to add it to the file. You can even let them know you plan to file in small claims court and you just want them to have a record of the information too in case there is another incident.


----------



## Common Tator

Rustaholic said:


> Common Tator, You really NEED to edit that last Paragraph.


Is it better now? As usual, autocorrect changes words, and I don't see them until after I've posted.


----------



## Rustaholic

Much better. At least she is still alive,,,,, :thumb:


----------



## The_rpp

Please do not forget there are statutes of limitations. In cases like this, it may be as short as 6 months. perhaps less depending on the state and the alleged offense. This applies to both criminal (the trespass) and civil (a small-claims suit).

Defendants will often bluster and make threats, but thy usually amount to nothing in cases like yours.

Also, since you have identified who some of the other people are in the photo, via the doctors statemetns, you should sue the parents of those kids as well. Believe me, nothing gets a person's attention quite like a process server at 6:30 in the morning.

If you do this, word will spread. The real question is who's word will be spread? When you file suit, consider contacting your local paper to make sure that it is YOUR story that gets associated with these claims, not the doc bad mouthing you. (Once a suit is filed, it becomes a public record.)

Good luck.


----------



## Riverdale

Rustaholic said:


> I hope you do not ever need that doctor.


Sounds like she'd steal my kidneys and sell them on the 'black market'. :icecream:


----------



## Riverdale

Common Tator said:


> I checked the PO box, and there is a letter from the doc, with a check for a fraction of what I asked for. She claims she only took enough for a pie. She claims that there were no apples in the backpack and just a few in the tote.
> 
> She also claims that in 1994, a friend took her to the ranch, and told her to ignore the no trespassing signs, because it was National Forest. That was the year the SDA folks sold the ranch. And they are the only ones to ever give me the excuse that it "reverted to National Forest". She also claims that the public trail that goes around our property without ever coming closer than 1/4 mile of our place, actually goes through it. In reading through her four page letter, virtually none of her claims are correct.
> 
> And then she chides me that I don't own the whole trail.
> 
> I've got some thinking to do, and some writing.
> 
> But when I opened the envelope and pulled out the check, hubby's eyes lit up, and he yelled "take it, and send her a thank you card!" He is excitable around checks.
> 
> I need to reread the letter and formulate a reply. I will probably be sending the check back, along with corrections to everything she said that is wrong. I don't need her to be out repeating to others the misstatements that she said to me about the public trail coming through our property. I will negotiate on price, but it won't accept what she sent.


As much as I hate to say this (due to the 'suehappiness' of our litigious society), sue her for the *maxium* amout allowed by law.

*DO NOT* cash her check, keep it for evidence.


----------



## Riverdale

Common Tator said:


> No offense taken. She won't be back. She's been stealing from me for years, I now know.
> 
> Think about it. It is a long, dry thirsty hike, through rugged terrain. By next apple season, we will have improved our fencing so that she couldn't possibly get through it. She is getting on in years, and is quite obese. Probably quite sedentary most of the time. In her letter, she said she hasn't been well, and it believe it. She doesn't look healthy in the trail cam shots.
> 
> This experience, being caught like this has been humiliating to her already. She knows that I showed her picture around to get an ID. I told her that in the last letter. I also told her that I provided the picture to the sheriff, and told him I wanted to prosecute. She knows that. That will be running through her head when she interacts with people from that small, tiny little berg she lives in. Who saw those pictures? Who knows what I did?
> 
> And this will be very costly for her. I may get what I am asking for. I may get less. I certainly won't get less than the check she already wrote. So she will have to explain herself to a judge. She will have to take time off from her busy medical practice to o to court and explain her actions.
> 
> She isn't going to want to go through this again. And I am going to be getting reimbursed.


That's why Fagin had Oliver Twist...... just sayin'


----------



## Riverdale

Common Tator said:


> Here is a copy & paste of what the doc would face if the Sheriff were to act.
> *Under section 602.8 of the California Penal Code, a trespass on a farm or ranch is an infraction punishable by a $75 fine for a first offense, and by $250 for a second offense. A third or later offense is a misdemeanor that carries a penalty of imprisonment in the county jail for up to six months or a fine of up to $1,000, or both.
> *
> And that money would go to the state. It doesn't compensate me for my losses.
> 
> At this point, I see these options.
> 
> 1. Accept the check and be done with it.
> 
> No. I don't like this option. The check is for less than my actual damages. She has been doing this for years. She has brought others to our ranch, taught them how to get there. In her letter, she twisted the truth to the breaking point to justify her actions, if she were to repeat the things she said to others, they may come looking to steal apples too, thinking that this ranch and orchard in neat rows just sprung up in the Forest.
> 
> 2. Take her to small claims court and ask for the full amount.
> 
> I'll probably get it.
> 
> 3. Take her to small claims court, and press the sheriff to do his job. If he were to do so under the law posted above, he would treat it as a first offense, there would be a record of it with the state. She would pay a $75 fine.
> 
> I may press the sheriff to act after I win the small claims case. I have no idea if he will do anything, but I can ask again. If I call the Sheriff's Department, they will refer it back to the same guy for two reasons. He is in charge of the rural crimes task force, and he is the guy assigned to our local area. He isn't an unreasonable guy. I think he blew it off because it's just "small apples" to him.
> 
> I don't want to give the impression that there is any threat of criminal action to the doc if she doesn't pony up. If I were to press for the sheriff to act, it wouldn't benefit me in any way, other than to create a premanant record. And I do want a permanant record. She probably won't come back, but if she did, I want that to be a second offense. And the Sheriff already knows all about this. I sent him the pictures and called him before I wrote to the doc.


CT, she has admitted to serial tresspassing. Tell her to pay the full amount and to stay off your property *OR* you will procede with the full weight of the law. Find out who theose kids were and ask their parents if they desire their offspring to have criminal records at a young age.

But hey, I'm not a nice person if you tick me off......


----------



## Common Tator

I would really like to find a source for cheap, broken trail cameras. Set them up in fairly obvious places. And put the good cameras more concealed, but in places where they will get good shots. So if the trespassers want to steal or destroy the obvious camera, I'll get good pictures of them doing it.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Well here you can walk in the local PD and sign a warrant for them :sing: Make em do their job . Also a thing called the State Police :thumb:


----------



## wottahuzzee

Common Tator said:


> I would really like to find a source for cheap, broken trail cameras. Set them up in fairly obvious places. And put the good cameras more concealed, but in places where they will get good shots. So if the trespassers want to steal or destroy the obvious camera, I'll get good pictures of them doing it.


You might post down here about the broken trail cams. They might have some ideas. Heck, you never know -- somebody might have one or two they would send just for the cost of postage. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/great-outdoors/


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## Pearl B

Common Tator said:


> I would really like to find a source for cheap, broken trail cameras. Set them up in fairly obvious places. And put the good cameras more concealed, but in places where they will get good shots. So if the trespassers want to steal or destroy the obvious camera, I'll get good pictures of them doing it.


Amazon has some fake cams, a few cheapies on up. Good Luck
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...ecurity camera&sprefix=phony+security,aps,511


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## Echoesechos

I went back and looked wand you started this thread on 10/11/13. Have you called the sheriff's back? You definitely are giving them more latitude than most. I think at this point you will have to call the sheriff's office again or forget about it. They won't call at this point, probably think it's not important to you, cause you haven't called them again. The longer it goes the less validity it has in their eyes, maybe even the good doctors. I hope it works out for you but the longer it drags out I'm losing hope for a good resolution for you.


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## wottahuzzee

Common Tator is very methodical. She finds the proper procedures and follows them, and she also gives people a chance to make things right. She will handle this in her own way and own time and most likely come out on top, a la the Captain Dreadlocks thread. 

Yeah, I, too, would like to see headless torsos flying through the air, fire and brimstone raining down on the evildoers, great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but Common Tator has this under control. Let's just wait and see.


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## Common Tator

wottahuzzee said:


> You might post down here about the broken trail cams. They might have some ideas. Heck, you never know -- somebody might have one or two they would send just for the cost of postage.
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/great-outdoors/


Thank you! I posted there!


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## a'ightthen

wottahuzzee said:


> Common Tator is very methodical. She finds the proper procedures and follows them, and she also gives people a chance to make things right. She will handle this in her own way and own time and most likely come out on top, a la the Captain Dreadlocks thread.
> 
> Yeah, I, too, would like to see headless torsos flying through the air, fire and brimstone raining down on the evildoers, great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but Common Tator has this under control. Let's just wait and see.


 I'll agree ... just bores the the 'ell out of me.

Tater has surpassed my patience.

I'm more like " I did not ask for it .. ye did " And it ends now.

Weird that I now get errors galore in a separate window ... perhaps just a sign of the times?

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Almost burnt out by this.


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## unregistered5595

wottahuzzee said:


> Yeah, I, too, would like to see headless torsos flying through the air, fire and brimstone raining down on the evildoers, great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but Common Tator has this under control. Let's just wait and see.


Headless torsos flying through the air, fire and brimstone raining down on evildoers, great wailing and gnashing of teeth--sounds like we need a different thread for all of that!

I like that Tator is calm and methodical. What gets me is that the sheriff dropped the ball. And they will continue unless they are served up more evidence on a platter, perhaps with a bow on top. They aren't doing their jobs.


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## Common Tator

I don't mean to bore the heck out of anyone. Sorry bout that! I emailed the Sheriff about some more Trespassers that I got pictures of, and asked him about the doc.


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## unregistered41671

Tator, I am sure no one here is bored reading about 'The Adventures Of Tator'. We are usually waiting a looking for a new entry or post with baited breath.


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## empofuniv

Possum Belly said:


> Tator, I am sure no one here is bored reading about 'The Adventures Of Tator'. We are usually waiting a looking for a new entry or post with baited breath.


Here Here!

We are ready to boo hiss boo! the doc and Hooray! Tator. 

I'm still on the fence about the Sheriff.


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## Tricky Grama

wottahuzzee said:


> Common Tator is very methodical. She finds the proper procedures and follows them, and she also gives people a chance to make things right. She will handle this in her own way and own time and most likely come out on top, a la the Captain Dreadlocks thread.
> 
> Yeah, I, too, would like to see headless torsos flying through the air, fire and brimstone raining down on the evildoers, great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but Common Tator has this under control. Let's just wait and see.


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## Sawmill Jim

empofuniv said:


> Here Here!
> 
> We are ready to boo hiss boo! the doc and Hooray! Tator.
> 
> I'm still on the fence about the Sheriff.


Can't fault Deputy Daug ,he is a feared he'll shoot his self in the foot and wake up and see the doc's face smiling down at him ,if he did his job gre: :run:


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## 65284

C Tator,

if you can't get the Sheriff's Dept to do their duty, take your evidence and go talk to someone at the Prosecuting Attorney's Office. Not saying they, will but they CAN, get things moving if they choose to do so.


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## gssmms

Common Tator, you&#8217;ve been kind enough to share your struggles with this issue and the people involved in it&#8230; the doctor, sheriff, campground, etc. Thank you for your openness and the updates.

I&#8217;m kinda new around these parts, and have been holding my tongue, hoping, perhaps, that someone else might suggest the following course of action for your consideration.

Assuming that the trouble with the dogs has subsided, (more of a physical safety issue) and the remaining strife is with people and their behavior, have you considered simply forgiving them?

I have no idea if you are a Christian, but if so, it would seem that this would fit snugly under the &#8220;bless those who curse you and pray for those who spitefully use you&#8221; plan of action. 

_(Of course, if you&#8217;d like to take it to the NEXT level, you could always take a box of fresh apples to the doctor&#8217;s office as a gift to her & her staff&#8230; which would fit under the &#8220;if your enemy is hungry, feed them&#8230; and in doing so, you&#8217;ll heap hot coals on her head&#8221; strategy.)_

As for the legal matters, take a prayerful read through 1 Corinthians 6&#8230; especially the part about how Paul writes that it might be better just to be defrauded than to go before the unjust legal system.

_(I&#8217;ve given no place in these suggestions to the campground OR the doctor&#8217;s behavior, lack of repentance, etc&#8230; because, obviously, nobody can control them. You can, of course, only control the decision and course you choose.)_

These ideas are offered for your consideration. I hope I didn&#8217;t come across as too &#8220;preachy.&#8221; Blessings to you!


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## am1too

Common Tator said:


> I would really like to find a source for cheap, broken trail cameras. Set them up in fairly obvious places. And put the good cameras more concealed, but in places where they will get good shots. So if the trespassers want to steal or destroy the obvious camera, I'll get good pictures of them doing it.


Use empty protection boxes. It'll serve the same purpose.


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## Rustaholic

*Bump* *to the top*:walk:​


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## Rosco99

CT By her slow pace of actions Shows Christan Charity.
When the bill is paid then she can offer Forgiveness.

No need was involved but a continuation of past thefts, that makes it difficult for Me to promote forgiveness with-out restitution 

Peace


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## unregistered353870

And forgiveness doesn't pay the bills....


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## joebill

jtbrandt said:


> And forgiveness doesn't pay the bills....


or avoid having the whole county showing up for freebies. Forgiving one's enemies is Christian, but pretending they are friends is unrealistic. Prosecution on a legal level and forgiveness on a personal level are NOT incompatible....Joe


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## RichInPA

Any news Tator?


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## citilivin

We're all wondering.


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## Common Tator

Nothing new. I'll be filing the small claims case Thursday or Friday.


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## empofuniv

Common Tator said:


> Nothing new. I'll be filing the small claims case Thursday or Friday.


Good on ya!

Back to the edge of our seats folks!


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## michael ark

You can cut a 4x4 into wedges to put behind the trail cameras so you can mount them high in the trees. They can't be stolen if they can't be reached or seen. Most people don't look up for trail cameras. I'll be the first to recommend razor wire .


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## Tango

i was at a retreat center last year in a rural setting where the closest neighbor apparently has a gorgeous pond near one of the walking trails. apparently many retreatants confused this pond for being on the property and would go to sit there. the neighbor became angrier and angrier until her solution was to charge a fee for sitting at her pond. when this was told to the retreat owners they started to warn the retreatants about straying off the walking trail. it was a stern warning and when one is in a retreat the last thing you want is a confrontation with an angry person so i didn't even use that trail; there was another. i say this because apparently the neighbor put up with the trespassing for a long time before she took it upon herself to charge a fee in order to stop the trespassing. who knows how many other things she had tried by then or how long it had been happening.
you have also allowed the abuse to go on for a long time but i guarantee there is a solution when the abuse is confronted head on with substance like a court order in your case. not only your livelihood but your home and your peace of mind have all been affected. it is good to be kind and patient and understanding, which it seems as you have done for years with no resolution. i would think in some states you might be giving away your rights to those apple trees if you don't put it on record as attempting to stop the trespassing. best wishes.


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## Rustaholic

Tango said:


> i would think in some states you might be giving away your rights to those apple trees if you don't put it on record as attempting to stop the trespassing. best wishes.


It easily could be like that here. I bought this property and being so young I was talked out of having a survey done right away.
When I did finally get one I put up a fence. It went from 15 feet in the front to 11 feet at the back of my five acres that I was out in the plowed field. 
The farmer was such a jerk I didn't care. He had been planting sun flowers and he said nothing about it because he had been there when they were doing the surveying. The following year he planted the 70 acres to cherry trees. That last row was very close to my fence. A smarter thing would have been to start on my end so they had to hand pick most of the last row later.
Imaging how long it was before they could get a crop and shake those trees. Five years of shaking the trees and hand picking 16 trees and I came home from work one day and they had pulled my fence and run the shaker on my property. I called the cops and my lawyer.
I knew more about property law than they did.
Two days after I put the fence up he could have pulled it and sued me for the property and he would have easily won. Seven or eight years after I had blocked access from that property he had no possible way to win.
He did not pull the very first one or six of the last ones and at the top of the hill I found the hole and the survey stake and put that one back.
My brother came here and we used my transit to set every other post and strung a string to set the others. Ten years later they were surveying the road and that guy told me he had never seen a fence put in so straight.
I told him his transit is a lot fancier than mine is.


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## KCFLY

Any updates??


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## Guest

Just my own two cents...

In my communication to the small claims court, I'd be sure to state that even though this person admitted, in writing, that she's been trespassing and stealing apples from you for quite awhile, you are ONLY suing for the full value of what was taken on the occassion of trespassing proven by the webcam....Judges like that sort of "fairness", and willl often award more than what was asked if the offender acts like a victim..


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## rkintn

Any news?


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## Rustaholic

Bump back to the first page.


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## Bellyman

Yup... not sure what's happening there, CT, but the whole thing has developed into a story we can hardly wait to read the next chapter of! 

With your posts, you have become a part of the family here and we care how things go for you. I only wish I could have been more effective in working on them behind the scenes but fear that there are a few people in local authority that don't have a whole lot of backbone or integrity. I hate to say that about fellow (professed) Christians. Not all that take on the Name live anything like they have a clue who He is, labels notwithstanding. 

Hoping you'll have a good outcome with the court proceedings! I'll add my voice to the choir... will be good to hear the updates as you're able.

Blessings, my friend.


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## unregistered5595

JoePa said:


> deleted post was here


Those were pretty not nice things to say, assumptions at that.


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## DamnearaFarm

Feather In The Breeze said:


> Those were pretty not nice things to say, assumptions at that.


Exactly. Especially considering the fact that CT has been an active member here a WHOLE lot longer than JoePa!


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## modineg44

Feather In The Breeze said:


> Those were pretty not nice things to say, assumptions at that.


 
When I first joined this group there was a woman who was posting all sorts of things that happened to her, generally involving her ex. Everyday there seemed to a new horrible happening. All turned out to not be true. 

However, I think CTs events are true - no doubt in my mind about this. But invented situations do happen.


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## wottahuzzee

JoePa said:


> deleted post was here-


JoePa -- That was really uncalled for. Why don't you check out these websites: 

http://www.stetsoncreekranch.com/index.html

https://www.facebook.com/#!/StetsonCreekRanch Read the post of October 14 in its entirety. I cannot believe someone has gone to that much trouble to "punk" us, especially apparently making up all those customer personas who commented on her orchard's FB page. 

Joe, in the future, do a little research before you start accusing someone of lying. CT's info was easily found by starting with her profile here.


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## oldasrocks

I'd use Claymores with a sign that said--Don't Touch Here"


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## JoePa

Holy mackeral - a guy can't say anything anymore - without a bunch of people jumping all over him - there have been many cases on the internet where people made up stories - I didn't call anyone a liar - just cautioned that maybe this could be happening from how long this story was going on - thats all - can't a guy express his opinion - are we so controlled by political correctness that people get offended with anything that doesn't agree with what they think - that's what happened to Phil - can't I think differently from you - it a sad day when that happens - no wonder our country is going down the tubes - :lonergr:


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## Lazy J

wottahuzzee said:


> https://www.facebook.com/#!/StetsonCreekRanch Read the post of October 14 in its entirety. I cannot believe someone has gone to that much trouble to "punk" us, especially apparently making up all those customer personas who commented on her orchard's FB page.


I think what JoePa and I see as incongruous is the "I'm so MAD about thieves that I'm going to e-mail the sheriff". With all the anger espoused by the OP toward the thieves it just doesn't seem fit to simply e-mail a deputy sheriff and not file official charges. To me is like shooting a charging bear with a BB gun, sure you're doing something but is it really going to change anything.

I hope the OP can get this resolved. Trespassing is one thing, being a thief while trespassing is another whole level.

By the way, the photos on the website made me hungry for some fresh apples, they looked great.

Jim


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## JoePa

I reason I said what I said is - there seems to be no resolution to this problem - heck if someone was continually trespassing on my property and stealing apples I would have the problem resolved in a matter of days - and eveytime someone offers a solution there is another excuse why it won't work - now maybe I'm wrong - maybe I'm not - what grips me the most is that I can't express my opinion - I'm suppose to think like everyone else - shame on the moderator for not letting me express my opinion - this is America isn't it -


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## fordy

JoePa said:


> I reason I said what I said is - there seems to be no resolution to this problem - heck if someone was continually trespassing on my property and stealing apples I would have the problem resolved in a matter of days - and eveytime someone offers a solution there is another excuse why it won't work - now maybe I'm wrong - maybe I'm not - what grips me the most is that I can't express my opinion - I'm suppose to think like everyone else - shame on the moderator for not letting me express my opinion - this is America isn't it -


 ...............Yep , since she has pics of the Piglet Doc stealing her apples , she should have filed a claim in small claims court , within a couple of days of the theft ! The only logical reason for her lack of pursuit of her claim is , I believe she is afraid of making some of these folks mad , and that it might affect the sales of her apples ! , fordy:shrug:


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## Ardie/WI

fordy said:


> ...............Yep , since she has pics of the Piglet Doc stealing her apples , she should have filed a claim in small claims court , within a couple of days of the theft ! The only logical reason for her lack of pursuit of her claim is , I believe she is afraid of making some of these folks mad , and that it might affect the sales of her apples ! , fordy:shrug:


For goodness sake, the OP is handling the issue in the way she wishes to! It's her life and her decision.

Anyone here not finding out what she did or did not do isn't going to kill them. It isn't plasma!


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## Molly Mckee

CT has a history of doing things very fairly and kindly and in the past they have turned out well. I don't have the patience she seems to but it works well for her and certainly did for the renter that was being taken advantage of by Capt underpants or whatever we were calling him. Maybe we can learn a lesson from CT.


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## wottahuzzee

fordy said:


> ...............Yep , since she has pics of the Piglet Doc stealing her apples , she should have filed a claim in small claims court , within a couple of days of the theft ! The only logical reason for her lack of pursuit of her claim is , I believe she is afraid of making some of these folks mad , and that it might affect the sales of her apples ! , fordy:shrug:


 
Those of us who read the thread most likely remember that CT stated she must notify the opposing party by certified mail, which she did and which Piggy replied to, and then wait 30 days from the date of mailing to file. Does anyone have any idea how long or how soon it may take to get a court date in her jurisdiction? In some areas it can take two months to get the first hearing and that is not to hear the claim, just to take the plea and try to get folks to go to mediation, and if mediation does not succeed, it can be another month to get an actual hear-the-case court date. If she had just hustled her hinie into court a few days after the theft, her case most likely would have been dismissed and perhaps not be eligible to be refiled at the proper time.

ETA: I admire CT's restraint and desire to handle this the right way. As I mentioned before, I would have been in that B's office grabbing office supplies and Band-Aids, singing this at the top of my lungs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhzTIKLu_Fc


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## copperkid3

Molly Mckee said:


> CT has a history of doing things very fairly and kindly and in the past they have turned out well. I don't have the patience she seems to but it works well for her and certainly did for the renter that was being taken advantage of by Capt underpants or whatever we were calling him. Maybe we can learn a lesson from CT.


+ + + + + + + + + +
*Capt'n Dreadlocks!*


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## unregistered41671

While I am sitting on the edge of my chair waiting to hear the outcome, I know that Tator will let us know what happens, when it happens.


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## oneokie

Seems that some people have on idea of what is entailed in filing a small claims court action, OR the time it takes to get the thing officially started. If the defendant lawyers up the first court date, it could take months to reach a conclusion.


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## fordy

................You'll are describing small claims court like it was a state district court............Small Claims court is characterized by.....(1)Both parties(usually) represent themselves , (2)Lawyers are NOT necessary , (3)Most likely the judge is elected and Not an attorney himself , (4)The injured party pays a fee , the court then sets a date certain where both parties showUP and present their evidence , then the judge issues a rendered verdict and the cases reach closure without all the complexities that characterize higher level civil trial courts . In Tx , damages have to be less than $10,000 . I'm sure this varies from state to state . , fordy


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## cab

What I don't get is the "edge of the seat" interest in someone else's petty theft problem. It's the same thing that drives the popularity of all the mindless reality tv shows: people with little in their life living vicariously through others. Sad.


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## unregistered5595

cab said:


> What I don't get is the "edge of the seat" interest in someone else's petty theft problem. It's the same thing that drives the popularity of all the mindless reality tv shows: people with little in their life living vicariously through others. Sad.


I see it completely differently. How many of us have had petty theft problems we need to deal with and how should we deal with it? With all the opinions here we learn so much. 

What kind of evidence do you have and what evidence do you need? How can that be documented? What steps should be taken, letters, certified or not, wait for a response or not? Get a lawyer or not. Will that be costly. Jurisdiction, statute of limitations and law enforcement. What if the police do something or if they do nothing. Small claims court and how long will that take? 

Many people read here to learn how *not* to make mistakes to resolve issues and what to do in different situations and this is one of those situations.


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## unregistered41671

cab said:


> What I don't get is the "edge of the seat" interest in someone else's petty theft problem. It's the same thing that drives the popularity of all the mindless reality tv shows: people with little in their life living vicariously through others. Sad.


Good for you.


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## IowaLez

I lived in Cali for 26 years, and i had livestock for a good 10. I had two incidents of animals killed by dogs. One, the people next door paid up when I demanded it, and the other had homeowner's insurance that paid me. Nobody argued about the treble damages I got from them.

Small Claims court is simple, like fordy said. It's not the same as other, higher courts. Proving stuff is much simpler.

In Cali you can claim up to TREBLE damages. You do not need to do anything except make a demand for payment in writing. I didn't do certified mail for anything. You don't have to wait a month that I've ever head of.

The main point people are missing, is that the lady Dr has ALREADY ADMITTED STEALING from the OP. This fact makes the court action much easier than if it were just she said-she said, plus there is photographic proof of the stealing AND she had other thieves with her, so you could argue that she aided and abetted additional theft by others, since she knew what she was doing was illegal. 

I don't understand calling a sheriff privately and then have nothing ever occur, plus then there is no theft/tresspass report - Nothing is on the record. Obviously the sheriff is not going to do anything at all with the private report, and maybe there is some law he can't take action with a private report, that I don't know about. Plus there is a limit on how long you can go back in time on a claim, I believe. I never had things drag on for more than 2 weeks in these type of situations.


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## Cindy in NY

cab said:


> What I don't get is the "edge of the seat" interest in someone else's petty theft problem. It's the same thing that drives the popularity of all the mindless reality tv shows: people with little in their life living vicariously through others. Sad.


Maybe because most of us here are concerned about other HT members just as if they were actual neighbors or family.


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## Bellyman

There may be some things that CT doesn't want to put on an open forum at this point in time.

Don't think that just because you don't know all about it that it's not happening behind the scenes. 

If you were in a big court case, would you want to blab your entire story all over the internet? Wouldn't you be afraid you might say something that might ultimately hurt your case? Sometimes, it really is best to be "of few words". The internet is public and once something is said, it can't be taken back. 

Patience, grasshoppers.  This ain't CSI and the bad guy won't be going to jail or get offed in next 44 minutes. 

As Data, from Start Trek TNG used to say, "Processing."


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## wr

CT seems to be taking a fair and even handed approach and when she has something to update, I'm sure she will. Until then, please keep your comments civil.


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## unregistered353870

> I didn't call anyone a liar - just cautioned that maybe this could be happening from how long this story was going on


I'd be suspicious of the story if it was all wrapped up quickly. Real life rarely happens that way. 

Sure, small claims court is simpler and faster, but I think but sides have to agree to go through small claims...if the defendant doesn't agree, then it has to go through regular court. It's possible that's the case here.


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## DEKE01

I just finished a small claims case that last 1 yr and 5 months start to finish. Just because they can go faster does not mean they all do. In this case, I dragged it out as long as I could because I got ripped off but knew I would have to pay something once the case settled.


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## fordy

jtbrandt said:


> I'd be suspicious of the story if it was all wrapped up quickly. Real life rarely happens that way.
> 
> Sure, small claims court is simpler and faster, but I think but sides have to agree to go through small claims...if the defendant doesn't agree, then it has to go through regular court. It's possible that's the case here.


 ..............I doubt it ! IF both sides are given a specific date , and the 'Other' side doesn't show UP , the judge allows the injured party to present their evidence , then the judge will evaluate the strength of the presentation , and , more than likely issue a default judgement in favor of the injured party ! What does it say about the opposing side , when they don't even have enough sense to show UP and present their case ? , fordy


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## oneokie

The Small Claims Court proceedure for each state is usually available to review on the internet. Saves a lot of guessing as to what can and does happen.


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## DEKE01

fordy said:


> ..............I doubt it ! IF both sides are given a specific date , and the 'Other' side doesn't show UP , the judge allows the injured party to present their evidence , then the judge will evaluate the strength of the presentation , and , more than likely issue a default judgement in favor of the injured party ! What does it say about the opposing side , when they don't even have enough sense to show UP and present their case ? , fordy


If one side wants to drag it out, regardless of the date having been set by the court, he can ask for continuances and drag that case out for a Loooooooooooong time. I did just that. Much to my delight, the other side objected most strenuously, but I won at ever delay.


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## JoePa

Small claims court decisions can be appealed but remember the case we are talking about didn't even get to small claims court - if someone is trespassing on your property and you know who it is - you can have the trespasser charged with trespassing - the person will receive a summons to appreal before a magistrate - both sides can argue their cases - and agree to a resolution if they so desire - a case that I am fimiliar with ended up with the trespasser agreeing to stay off the land that he was trespassing on - or next time be liable to fine and jail time - the person who placed the charges agreed to this arrangement - if you see a trespasser on your property you can call the State Police and if they are close enough will come out and arrest the person - usually this isn't easy to do because usually the trespasser isn't there when the police come - 

Trespassing is a crime and there needs to be a simple and quick way to stop it - otherwise a person can hunt on someone else's land without permission - and the owner needs a way of stopping it quickly otherwise the trespasser could hunt all hunting season before tne issue is settled in some court months or years later - that doesn't make sense - if someone commits a crime against me - I have the recourse to file charges - the criminal will get a summons to appear before a magistrate -


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## sidepasser

CT will update when there is new progress, I have a feeling that living in a "small" town where everyone knows everyone, that she is taking the correct path. I have lived in a "small" town where not only did everyone know everyone, but half the town was related. It pays to be circumspect and cautious dealing with people in small towns as from what I understand, this lady is the DOCTOR in the town. Don't ya just reckon that half the town uses her for their illnesses? 

So there may be more to the story that what we see here and I am sure CT will update when more information is available. After living in small town America, I totally understand the "it's not what you know, but who you know" and feel that it is wise to take things slowly, abide by the law, and continuously pursue justice without making the whole town mad.


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## unregistered353870

fordy said:


> ..............I doubt it ! IF both sides are given a specific date , and the 'Other' side doesn't show UP , the judge allows the injured party to present their evidence , then the judge will evaluate the strength of the presentation , and , more than likely issue a default judgement in favor of the injured party ! What does it say about the opposing side , when they don't even have enough sense to show UP and present their case ? , fordy


When I have been involved, there was a chance for the defendant to file an answer before the court date. On their answer form, they had to check a box that said they agreed to go through small claims. I don't know for sure, but it seems they have the option of having the case moved up to the "big" court with lawyers and all that stuff. Of course it varies by state, but the procedures are usually similar.


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## dizzy

CT lives in California, right? Here's a link to info on filing a claim there. http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/file.shtml


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## JoePa

Why are we talking about small claims court - we should be talking about crimminal trespass and a person being charged for doing that - a crimminal charge doesn't end up in small claims court - it ends up before a magistrate - small claims court is for handleing a case where someone thinks that someone else owes them money - if you are charged or arrested for trespassing you end up before a magistrate - where you can be fined or even jailed depending on the judgement -


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## DEKE01

Actually, some of us are talking about trying to take over a process that is really none of our concern. Some of us would be well served to have the patience of the OP and understand there is the ever so slight chance that this one issue isn't the only thing that the OP has to deal with on a daily basis. Our eagerness for more info or revenge is not a reason for the OP to do anything different than what she deems best.


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## unregistered5595

The OP never wanted revenge, but, if she did, we as HT'ers would have rallied around her, stampeded the docs office and stolen all her tongue depressors. ound:


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## JoePa

Mean while back at the ranch - JoePa is watching the Sugar Bowl - I've watched so much football I can't remember who played who -


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## chester5731

Now that your hopes are up, BUMP.


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## tamatik

jtbrandt said:


> Any agreement with the previous owners wouldn't matter anyway...it's been many years and the camp has been informed many times that any such agreements (if they ever existed) are no longer in effect.
> 
> In the demand letter, I would definitely ask for the highest price. You might also add on a land use fee. Not sure if that could be enforced in small claims court, but it's worth a try and would cover some of the apples they've stolen without being caught.
> 
> Maybe for the future post signs along the fence announcing a $500 per person per entry "back entrance fee" that will be charged to anyone not entering through the official entrance during normal business hours.


 I know this is an old thread and I havent got to the end yet, but the thought of the back entrance fee struck me as funny.. I have a sign at my place 

"permit required.. price $500 per entry.. passing this sign denotes acceptance of these terms"


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## KCFLY

2 week bump


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## Bellyman

Haven't heard from you in a while, Common Tater. Hope you're doing ok.

Have wondered whether anything has happened with your situation, for the good or otherwise, or whether you might have been advised to not say much in public.

Whatever is going on, only hoping for the best for you and yours... and remembering you.

Looking forward to hearing from you if you're able.


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## grouse789

I just joined this site, and was intrigued by this thread. Sheeww very very long. But in reading I hear a few things from CT. One ppl are stealing from her property. Two , She wants it to end. However, she doesn't seem willing to spend the money to end this. You cannot put a price on security. the cost of trail cams, and or a high fence will pay themselves back over time. Knowing your exact property line, and posting every tree on that line at 8 feet, will curb theft. 
Sorry its not the camps job to tell people what to do and what not to do. Its your business to keep people off your property(its yours after all). 
I hope things work out in the end. One idea is hiring someone for security maybe just on weekends, or whenever trespassing has the highest frequency.
As far as the police, I doubt the cop was on vacation, but whatever. They have bigger issues to solve than the great apple caper. 
The only thing the cops should be involved in is the good Dr.(ever so cheap I might add). She has the pictures as proof. Personally this is something that should have been taken care of in person. Right to the police station with the photos, and the Dr's address. Demanding that she be fined for trespassing and Arrested for shoplifting. I mean that's what is taking place right? Shoplifting?
Ct, you do not seem like a confrontational person, but in this case you really need to grab the bull(Dr) by the horns, and also spend some $$ protecting your property, otherwise you have nothing to complain about.


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## DEKE01

grouse789 said:


> Sorry its not the camps job to tell people what to do and what not to do. Its your business to keep people off your property(its yours after all).


*If* the camp is inviting people to pick apples, providing a place to park, showing the way, it is aiding and abetting a crime. From a legal dictionary

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Aid and Abet

To assist another in the commission of a crime by words or conduct.

The person who aids and abets participates in the commission of a crime by performing some Overt Act or by giving advice or encouragement. He or she must share the criminal intent of the person who actually commits the crime, but it is not necessary for the aider and abettor to be physically present at the scene of the crime.

An aider and abettor is a party to a crime and may be criminally liable as a principal, an Accessory before the fact, or an accessory after the fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## Bellyman

Anybody hear from Common Tator lately? Hope she's ok. I haven't seen any recent postings here and haven't had any contact privately either.

Not trying to be nosey. Just wondering. I kinda stuck my neck out with some of the connections on the camp side but haven't heard a peep outta them for a while either. 

I would guess apple season is still a few months off but it's certainly not too early to think about how the situation might play out this year.

Only wishing for the best...


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## crazyfarm

Just a different view here for Tator, even if they are trespassing if they are injured on your property you are liable. I'd be a bit afraid of the vindictiveness of people this brazen. Good luck!


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## kasilofhome

That is why I stand guard.


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## HowlingFarms

Add a little 120v current to that fence and they'll really see "God"

:bow:

With a warning of course... so long as they don't fall on your property.


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## Rustaholic

Common Tator's last post on this whole site was back in December of 2013.
Please just leave this topic to rest until it is brought back to life by the OP.


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## Guest

Next thing you know someone will bring up the thread " I found a hole in the ground". That was another thread that went on forever with no conclusion.


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## whiterock

Anyone know what happened to Common Tator. Been over 6 months since we last heard from her.


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## HowlingFarms

Rustaholic said:


> Common Tator's last post on this whole site was back in December of 2013.
> 
> Please just leave this topic to rest until it is brought back to life by the OP.



The topic is still opened for comments, so I replied and subscribed to see if there are updates. Should you wish to no longer be a part of this thread, please unsubscribe. 

Forum threads work because people other than the OP reply. Otherwise, what's the point?


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## Bellyman

FWIW, I would love to hear how CT is doing these days, too. (sigh)

In a quirky kind of way, a lot of the people we get accustomed to chatting with become friends of sorts. And we miss them when they go away.


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## gimpyrancher

Being a former CA resident for over 60 years, I'd have handled it differently. I'd of held the trespassers with my apples at gunpoint. I'd have called the Police/Sheriff and let them know I was holding them at gunpoint so I wouldn't have had to wait long for them to arrive. I'd had them arrested and transported to wherever the law wanted them to go. I would have let the DA handled the rest. If I had to appear in court, I'd have charged the camp for my time. I'd also would have had plenty of time with my detainees while waiting for the law to arrive to suggest that the arrested people might consider expecting the camp to pay all their expenses and legal fees for suggesting they knowingly go to my place and steal my property. Bet that would have instantly solved the problem. It would all have been completely legal and proper. Good neighbors aren't born, they are created. When all was said and done, Id have given the story to the local paper.

None of this would have been "in front of" my paying customers.

As for any dogs being loose on my rural property from the camp? The laws are very clear. Since there were multiple warnings (not required), I'd have shot the dogs (with my very powerful air Rifle so as not to disturb my paying customers) to protect my livestock and then taken the remains over to the camp and left them on the ground in front of their office for all to see. I would also have left another warning that I will continue to protect my property, family and livestock.

Now that I live in Oregon, an open carry state (guns), we don't have these kinds of problems. Neighbors around here are more respectful for whatever the reason. :hammer:


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## unregistered353870

> I'd of held the trespassers with my apples at gunpoint.


That would require you to be there to catch them in the act. I think the OP had too much to do running her business to stake out the back fence line waiting for trespassers to show up.


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## gimpyrancher

I totally understand. However, I have to ask what would have happened to her business if one or more of the trespasser had been injured on her property and she was sued? This is CA. She, her insurance company if she had one and her investment would have been liable. If you don't do something to stop the trespassing then you are approving it in the eyes of the CA courts.

I would have had someone (friend or relative) to run the sales counter or had them watch for the trespassers so I could then have gone and dealt with them when they were discovered. Crime prevention in any business is a problem that should be dealt with when you become aware, or it gets worse.

There is nothing that stops "the honest people" from repeating the crime that a close encounter with a cop and judge. These people were not career criminals.


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## DEKE01

gimpyrancher said:


> I'd of held the trespassers with my apples at gunpoint.


And that would be a VERY bad plan. You draw a gun in order to shoot something. And you shoot something only to destroy it or deliver a potentially lethal injury. 

When you draw the gun on that crowd and they keep walking away from you, are you going to fire? Are you going to fire at them if they keep walking towards you with hands up? What if they split up and get on opposite sides of you? You'll have escalated the event from trespass and petty theft to a potentially lethal, violent confrontation. You'll be faced with decisions to shoot and possibly kill someone and you will have started the violence. You don't draw your gun to raise the level of violence, you draw it to end violence and that would be a violent situation only if you chose to make it one. 

Do you want to stand in front of a jury and say you killed someone because they were stealing $100 worth of apples? Or that you were sick and tired of their trespassing? 

It is better to take out your camera and shoot some photos, even if it never recovers your financial loses and never stops the trespass. It just isn't worth risking your freedom and life.


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## Forcast

dudeatlarge said:


> Next thing you know someone will bring up the thread " I found a hole in the ground". That was another thread that went on forever with no conclusion.


I liked that post


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## gimpyrancher

DEKE01 said:


> And that would be a VERY bad plan. You draw a gun in order to shoot something. And you shoot something only to destroy it or deliver a potentially lethal injury.


People here just don't walk away when they are facing a man with a gun while committing a crime. Things may be different in FL.

I totally understand your position coming from where you live. Funny how 2 of your law enforcement officers met my wheelchair riding friend with his Service Dog while living temporarily in a trailer after loosing his house, with two guns drawn and pointed at them after the destruction by Katrina. Not that he was doing anything wrong or illegal. It was just because his Dobie Service Dog was sitting at his side. The same Service Dog that was in front of Congress when my friend testified there. He didn't just walk away either.

I was flying back from your airport (nearest to Hollywood FL) to CA. Your local police hassled me over my Service Dog at the airport. A ticket was issued. Before I arrived home, a complaint had been filed with the feds and the ticket was withdrawn and the officers had to go through re-training. I totally understand your position.

You come on my rural property and commit a crime, I'll handle it our way as our laws authorize. If I visit your state, (never again) you handle my visit your way.

Let's stay away from each other and avoid a problem, okay?


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## gimpyrancher

DEKE01 said:


> Are you going to fire at them if they keep walking towards you with hands up?


Seems to me that's your state law that authorizes "stand your ground." Isn't that right?

I'm just saying . . .


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## GunMonkeyIntl

"Stand your ground" rights come with responsibility, and require mature, considered thought to be used without getting people hurt unnecessarily.

Pulling a gun on a trespasser who is not presenting a clear danger to you, is not using the right responsibly. If you're not in danger, and you pull a gun on someone, you are now in danger - and you created it. 

As an earlier poster mentioned, you only pull a gun when you intend to use it, and you only use a gun when you intend to destroy something. These concepts of holding someone at gunpoint, intimidating someone by racking a shotgun, or showing them that you "mean business" by drawing a laser dot on their center of mass is Hollywood crap that has somehow leaked out into reality - and it gets people hurt in situations that would not otherwise require it.


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## DEKE01

gimpyrancher said:


> People here just don't walk away when they are facing a man with a gun while committing a crime. Things may be different in FL.
> 
> I totally understand your position coming from where you live. Funny how 2 of your law enforcement officers met my wheelchair riding friend with his Service Dog while living temporarily in a trailer after loosing his house, with two guns drawn and pointed at them after the destruction by Katrina. Not that he was doing anything wrong or illegal. It was just because his Dobie Service Dog was sitting at his side. The same Service Dog that was in front of Congress when my friend testified there. He didn't just walk away either.
> 
> I was flying back from your airport (nearest to Hollywood FL) to CA. Your local police hassled me over my Service Dog at the airport. A ticket was issued. Before I arrived home, a complaint had been filed with the feds and the ticket was withdrawn and the officers had to go through re-training. I totally understand your position.
> 
> You come on my rural property and commit a crime, I'll handle it our way as our laws authorize. If I visit your state, (never again) you handle my visit your way.
> 
> Let's stay away from each other and avoid a problem, okay?


You'll find FL is a far friendlier gun state than OR. As to you getting hassled by cops, that happens all over, I deplore it, wish it had not happened to you, and is completely irrelevant to the gun play you propose. 

Your local cops might be very sympathetic to an event of theft and trespass and totally back you up in the circumstances you describe. But they might not. Again, it just is not worth risking your freedom and possibly life in this case. 

You don't know if someone in that crowd is carrying as well. They might think they are picking from wild trees on abandoned land or public land. In my area, where the Feds, State, and local water mgmt. boards have bought up land, it is nt unheard of to see citrus on public lands. So in their mind, here comes some nut with a gun, and what are they going to do? Draw their gun in self defense? 

Again, you'll have created a violent situation where none existed before you decided to be Dirty Harry.


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## DEKE01

gimpyrancher said:


> Seems to me that's your state law that authorizes "stand your ground." Isn't that right?
> 
> I'm just saying . . .


Stand your ground does not apply in this case because no one has made a threat against you. It might apply if one of the trespassers you confronted started to come at you in a threatening manner. But if you've drawn a gun first, the jury may decide you started the confrontation so stand your ground doesn't apply.

But again, you are risking the loss of your freedom and life for what? If you shoot a trespasser in that situation and are absolutely justified in every way because one of them came at you with a believable threat, unless you kill all of them, people will remain who are not friendly to your side of the story. The jury will hear 5 or 10 people say one thing and you say another. You want to take the risk the law is going to save you from years in jail?

Ask George Zimmerman how that goes. Not to debate that case here, but for the sake of argument, say he did everything right. He still lost his freedom for a couple of years, lost his wife, lost his job, and he was the "winner" in that case. A few more wins like that, and he will live the rest of his life in jail and dead broke. Even if you don't give a rat's rear for the lives and families of those you shoot, look what you are risking for some apples and trespass. 

BTW - in no way am I apologizing for the trespass and theft. I hope those people pay dearly. And if one of those people had threatened the family of the OP, then it is totally time to fire for effect. I'm pro gun, pro carry, pro shooting bad guys when legally justified. But anti creating big problems out of small problems.


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## Guest

I always thought Common Tator was the one who found 8 coffee cans full of gold under a tree. That was about the time she stopped posting, the gold was found around Saddle Ridge", she had posted a couple times about something "over the ridge"


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## Bellyman

Common Tator did email me back when this was all happening. I had thought that maybe I could offer some help with the situation from the other side of it having "distant" associations with those who run the camp. (And "distant" IS the operative word.) But I figured, hey, I know someone who knows someone who may know someone... I'll see...

I haven't heard from her since. If she's under some kind of court order not to talk about it, so be it. I was kinda surprised I didn't hear at least that if it's the case. Or maybe she sold the place and they moved on? I certainly hope that nothing has happened to her. She seemed like a nice enough lady, though pretty stressed out. (I would be, too.) Would still be good to hear she's ok if she is...


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## DryHeat

Back to the topic of OP (CT) and concern about her status. Back a year ago, I exchanged a few pms with her, mostly discussing general possibilities of buying forest service leased land as a BO/ prepping location. I'm 100% sure I've spotted her pick-ur-own apple operation on its Facebook page. It has current entries as of a couple of days ago. (An entry a year ago there discusses the theft that this thread originated with.) Why she isn't participating here at this point, I have no idea and see no reason to idly speculate about, but also don't see any reason to be concerned about her health and such, either.


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## miraclemant

Forget talking to them, I would figure out what days and times these low life's are coming over, then I would wait for them with a 12 ga shotgun. Not to actually hit anybody mind you, but I would definitely put the fear of God back into them.


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## Sawmill Jim

miraclemant said:


> Forget talking to them, I would figure out what days and times these low life's are coming over, then I would wait for them with a 12 ga shotgun. Not to actually hit anybody mind you, but I would definitely put the fear of God back into them.


Since the first post on this thread they have had enough time to have died of natural causes :facepalm:


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## kasilofhome

Sawmill Jim said:


> Since the first post on this thread they have had enough time to have died of natural causes :facepalm:


Too funny..

..I miss Mrs potatoehead....yea ...many posters have monikers from me.


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## deodra

Darn. I was hoping to read a happy ending here and not a cliff hanger. Bummer.


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## DEKE01

deodra said:


> Darn. I was hoping to read a happy ending here and not a cliff hanger. Bummer.


The hero rode off into the sunset on a white horse and the apple growers lived happily ever after. 

The End. 




Maybe...


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## deodra

DEKE01 said:


> The hero rode off into the sunset on a white horse and the apple growers lived happily ever after.
> 
> The End.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe...


ROFLMAO! That's funny! I hope so!


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## MichaelZ

But did someone get married? In the books my wife reads, someone always gets married in the last chapter.


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## DEKE01

MichaelZ said:


> But did someone get married? In the books my wife reads, someone always gets married in the last chapter.



I said they lived happily ever after. So of course no one got married!



eep:


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