# Training a Ram to Not....Ram



## jode (Oct 24, 2007)

We have a fullgrown shetland ram who is a threat to anyone who enters his pen and who has done full charges and throws his head on me if I hold him. I have done any number of things to persuade him against this (throwing him and sitting on him, water buckets, squirt guns, etc.) all efforts are temporary at best. I can deal with it, but I'd prefer not to. I figure that with the small size of our herd, we'll use him for breeding one more time, then get rid of him in favor of new genes.

His first son (that we know of) was born today. I plan to whether him. Will that be enough to stop the battering chain? Should we treat the little guy in a special way to train him to be afraid of humans?


----------



## luvfarmin04 (Sep 28, 2006)

In my personal experience, if you wether him that will stop all the ramming instincts in the young one and make him a nice pet. As for your adult ram, get rid of him ASAP. He will hurt you.


----------



## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Why do I keep reading posts by people who seem to be completely surprised that their ram is behaving - well, like a ram.

Jode, he's the male of the species and from your post, everything you've done with him has been geared up to aggravate him further. Stay out of his pen - your invading his territory. Don't throw him and sit on him - your giving him a fight. Squirting with water is just going to make him very angry. At the moment your leaving yourself open to getting badly hurt. You can get rid of him by all means but your next ram will be exactly the same. Ignore him and don't handle him unless you have to. Stay out of his pen other than for feeding and cleaning and when you do need to handle/move him, use a stout stick to give him a swift smack across the nose. I have no problems with my rams and some stay here for 4-5 years. It's not because they are nice quiet, biddable animals because they're not, it's because I start off the way I mean to go on with them, as well as respecting them for what they are. 

Wethering any ram lamb will get rid of the ram tendancies and make them into a docile pet or something for the table. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


----------



## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

can I join this thread with ram questions?

My border leicester ram is ultra friendly - quiet - loves to be scratched and acknowledged. Am I setting all of us up for a bad ending by paying attention to him? 

Also, we have a very small flock and the ram is in with the ewes and lambs. So I am in his pen frequently. He'll be separated for a few key months this summer and then live with them for the balance of the year. I don't really have enough space for anything else. Any tips for managing this well?


----------



## luvfarmin04 (Sep 28, 2006)

I feel you can have a "understanding" between human and ram. When I had mine he was friendly but I still kept a distance and didn't coddle him. Every now and then he would get a chin scratch and a treat but not consistantly. But never ever did I completely trust him!! Sheep are herd animals, you might have a problem keeping your ram separate and alone. Put something with him. It will keep him happy. All rams have their behavior, some are just more aggressive with it.


----------



## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

have a pr of hobbles made for his front legs, give him just enough slack to move around, not enough to get a run. it won't hurt him, but will keep you from getting hurt.


----------



## animalfarmer (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi jode,I sent you a P.M. It may be of intrest. Best of luck.


----------



## jode (Oct 24, 2007)

animalfarmer and others who have managed to respond without adopting a condescending tone:

Thanks for your responses.


----------



## beoircaile (May 2, 2006)

Some Shetlands have a stronger tendancy to exert their dominance than other rams. We have rams of several breeds: Shetland, Romney, Jacob, BlueFaced Leceister, Oxford, Dairy, and a Wensleydale cross; and of all the sheep, the Shetland or Shetland cross rams are more likely to be aggressive than any of the others. The Romney & BFL rams are the most laid back. The others are still yearlings, but they are behaving more like the Romney & BFL rams.

Do you have a stock dog? I have my English Shepherd whose main job is to keep the rams in their place. He will (if needed) grab a ram by the muzzle and move them away. If they behave, then he knows he isn't needed.


----------



## redroving (Sep 28, 2005)

I agree that all rams should not be trusted but you can help also by having a "wether buddy" castrated male for him to have company. All sheep are flock oriented and get frustrated when alone.


----------



## Missbeckysgoats (Apr 15, 2008)

Maybe you could bottle feed the new ram? I guess you'd have to milk his mom. I have tried milking Shetland/highland sheep, (my mom has 6) it's hard but I did get some milk, I'm gonna try again this year, cause that was a while ago. Our ram we have right now, Ramesses Jr, I played with a lot when he was a lamb so he's not as bad as his dad was, he loves it when I rub his cheeks (like the rest of our sheep) but he will let me rub his cheeks, kiss his forehead and then he'll decide he's had enough and he'll try to butt me through the fence. 
I'm not sure if wethering a ram will help any, but I've never tried it, so I'm no expert.

Hope this helps,

-Rebecca


----------



## feelingsheepish (Jan 18, 2008)

Wethering does not always eliminate ramming tendancies. My first sheep were two Shetland ewes and a Shetland wether. The Shetland wether was aggressive by the age of 10 months, and impossible by 14 months. By 18 months he was very calmly sitting in a roasting pan in the oven, there was nothing else reasonable to do with him. Short of 2 inch boards nailed to the insides of posts, and a gate that would open in, he would bust it down. Even turned out with his two girls, he would spend an hour a day just hitting the side of the barn. He wouldn't hit wire, but he would use his horns to pry up the bottom of the field fence to crawl under, if the wire wasn't buried, and would run through electric (although not as strong a charger as I would have liked) I later heard that his father was also quite aggressive. My current ram is not nearly as determined, but I still restrain him if I need to be in the pen - but at least he leaves the walls alone! Of my two yearling rams, one is starting to be aggressive, so he'll go in the freezer rather than for sale. My other one was bottle fed, and raised with people for long enough that he really seems to have warped sheep instincts. Which is good so far...


----------



## bumpus (Jul 30, 2003)

.
It's called a 2 X 4 and don't quit hitting him until he stops ramming.

I would beat him until he runs away from me and is afraid of me.

He will kill you if you give him a chance.

There are dead people who did not believe that.

One good hit to your head, or splean, and you are dead.

bumpus


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

Ronney said:


> Why do I keep reading posts by people who seem to be completely surprised that their ram is behaving - well, like a ram.


I don't agree with this at all. A shetland is a primitive breed so while this behaviour would be likely during "heat" season, it shouldn't be like this at other times of the year. We select for rams we can handle and who are male enough to put the puck in the net (as dh likes to say) but not a safety risk. During "season" our current ram got a bit rammy but not so much that we couldn't handle him. You may want to wether him - if you decide to keep him - just because you may not want those genes in your gene pool.

One thing to try before you give up is this:

http://www.premier1supplies.com/detail.php?prod_id=7&cat_id=4&source=newsletter

We have a ewe who acts like a ram but I wasn't interested in killing for a number of reasons. We've had a ram shield on her and no problems anymore. I still wouldn't turn my back on him but get one and make a decision in a time frame you can live with.

PM me if you want.


----------



## beoircaile (May 2, 2006)

> My other one was bottle fed, and raised with people for long enough that he really seems to have warped sheep instincts. Which is good so far...


This can set up a very bad situation. "Generally", rams that are bottle fed become some of the worst offenders at human contact later in life. They don't have the understanding that we are the "alpha" beings and they need to respect that. Typical bottle baby behavior of being "pushy" to get the milk can be painful when they are older!



> It's called a 2 X 4 and don't quit hitting him until he stops ramming. I would beat him until he runs away from me and is afraid of me. He will kill you if you give him a chance.


Very true! A hard hit to the gut can rupture a spleen or do internal damage. But again- that's why I have the dog- I don't have to remember to have a 2x4 or other object with me. The dog comes with me when we have to go into the pen and the dog watches to make sure the rams stay away.



> A shetland is a primitive breed so while this behaviour would be likely during "heat" season, it shouldn't be like this at other times of the year.


As far as a Shetland/primitive breed not being like this out of season- many are like this all the time. They would still have the instinct to protect the flock. You can select against it in your flock, but as a rule, never, ever trust an intact male animal of any species. "Testosterone fog" is very common and they don't think- they just react.

Speaking of hard hits to people, has anyone seen the gum ad with the guy on the street getting hit by a ram? I'm not sure how they set that up or if it's a composite (I hope) but that sure is a tough driving ram!


----------



## kesoaps (Dec 18, 2004)

flannelberry said:


> I don't agree with this at all. A shetland is a primitive breed so while this behaviour would be likely during "heat" season, it shouldn't be like this at other times of the year.


Tell that to the Icelandic ram who tried to knock me into the middle of next week at any opportunity! I'd have to agree with Ronney; rams are rams are rams, and if you've not had that experience count yourself among the fortunate.

Cathleen, yes, you're setting yourself up. Stop while you still can 

*Never trust a ram. *

Jode, small properties make it difficult to manage rams in my experience. Limited experience of course, but I've got a couple and some have been easy but others have been terrors. They do need their space or they can feel trapped and defensive. If you don't need the ram lamb for breeding and you're not planning on sending him to freezer camp later in the year, I'd go ahead and castrate him. Both of you will be much happier!


----------



## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

When we first moved out to the country I got a call to take in a "rescue" ram. He was found literally walking the streets in a busy town, no farms in sight. We took him and I found out he was a purebred Shetland ram, since he was already halter broke I considered myself lucky and quickly bought three more ewes to begin our flock. Within a year he began ramming. He rammed fences, our heavy duty chain link gates, he almost killed our Old English Southdown ram so we put him out by himself. I agonized over what to do and everyone told me to either beat him silly or take him to auction or butcher him. I was new (still am) and my heart was very soft and we waited months before I got the courage to take him to auction. He sold for meat because I didn't know where he was from and while waiting for his "time" I found out later that he beat the crap out this huge guy who worked for the butcher! Murray the ram was only 95# and this guy was experienced with rams and all kinds of livestock but he went into the pen and was really bruised up by the time he got out. Then I found out that some rams have actually killed people, friendly rams = big trouble. Now if they get mean they will go into our freezer. I won't drive 2 hours and pay commission just to make my conscious feel better. He did make us so beautiful lambs though, now we have another ram and if he gets mean I won't hesitate to replace him. Rams are cheap! I wish you good luck but I know what it took for me to learn my lesson, I hope you learn quicker than I did and before he really hurts you or someone else. We've had strangers just stop by to see the "pretty animals" and if anyone had gotten into that pasture or God forbid a child, they would have been hurt pretty badly. It wasn't his fault, he was just a ram and someone had taken a lot of time with him to make so friendly but when he turned two, he changed into this mature ram with no respect for humans. Good luck and listen to the shepards with experience. 

Olivia67


----------



## Missbeckysgoats (Apr 15, 2008)

We keep our ram in a separate pen then when we need to breed the sheep to him we put him in with them. I'm glad God gave them horns for handles!  if he comes running at us we just grab his horns and he stops. There may not be a way to domesticate rams, from what lots of people are saying, it sounds like they just grow out of the 'human loving' age and become the protector for their herd.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

It's interesting - I've had almost exclusively Icelandic experience so I'm only speaking about that - but if your rams are so "rammy" out of season how on earth do you do any of the management of them? I've worked with lots of rams on large sized farms as well as my own flock and have only had problems during "season" (and with one ewe who will also be lunch).

If I had a ram who was problematic outside of that time he'd not be bred. Who wants an animals you can't work when you need to? That's my general rule - if I can't do most of the work I need to do by myself you don't get to stay. I'll use the ram shield at certain times but by and large you need to be workable (ram or ewe).

I do agree that you wouldn't ever want to turn your back on any stock - season or not, friendly or not- but a ram shield will largely keep you safe enough if you decide to keep him and are diligent.

Olivia is right - purebred, beautiful well tempered rams are cheap and available. None of us like eating our boys (well, they're tasty but still) if we can sell them to a go home - so do look around and see if there is one you might like. I know it's not an easy decision but it's likely going to be the safest one. The fact is, he's not likely going to improve, right?

Regarding your current little guy and training him. I think you want to be careful about "training" him to be afraid of humans. It's a dangerous path to step on whatever animal you're breeding/rearing. What I would strongly encourage you to do is to join a Shetland Sheep association and hook up with some members who can be mentors for you with some breed specific stuff. I cannot say enough positive about the folks I've met through ISBONA (Icelandic Sheep Breeders Association). Whenever anyone needs advice they put a post on the list which usually results in hugely helpful information.

Good luck with it.


----------



## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

the methods you mentioned ARE the ones recomended by the shetland sheep association, and so far have worked for us( he was really humbled by being sheared as well)

one more thing you could try is the sun visor to limit his vision, it is similar to what they used to do to jersey bulls to keep them from attacking.

also if you use a pen to keep him up during off seasons, if he can get his nose through enought to eat out of your hand, teach him that ramming pen is NO( and no grain treat), and walking up and kindly waiting for feed is yes and nibbles of grain, several times a day.

I did worry that would make him follow us but it doesnt, he looks to see if I have grain, if not he pretends to ignore me. 

BUt rams are individuals just like people, and different rams require different treatment


----------



## kesoaps (Dec 18, 2004)

> if your rams are so "rammy" out of season how on earth do you do any of the management of them?


Flannelberry, Walter went to freezer camp. He was excessively aggressive IMO. The EFs are not so bad, but Pokey is out there head butting a tree at the moment without any ewes on the property, so he's still worth keeping an eye on (he got me the other day, even though most of the time he's quite docile.) Even so, DD can handle him most of the time so care isn't problematic. But if you're going to walk through his pasture it pays to know just what you may be up against


----------



## Slev (Nov 29, 2003)

Of all the rams we've had of Border Leicesters, only one was a total jerk. (We knew it when we bought him) just needed that wool fix. As soon as he was home and out of the trailer, he ram butted my thigh to a point where it hurt. I I about fell over laughing watching him try to run, (something he had never had to do in his life!) WE kept him long enough to get the season out of him. All of the rest of our rams, (some former show sheep) have been really nice and mild. 

...BUT I'D BE THE 1ST TO TELL EVERYONE, YOU NEVER TRUST A RAM.


----------



## derekv (Jan 31, 2007)

the best way to keep problems like this from happening is when their in a barn or whatever and your feeding them every day DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE PETS! they think that is ok to play anytime if you do it in the barn they want to out in the field. treat livestock like livestock. their farm animals so leave them at that. if you want a pet get a dog or cat.
this is not supposed to be an attack or anything, but i hope someone will listen and learn something if there is something to be learned.


----------



## ShortSheep (Aug 8, 2004)

Jode, sometimes they are just beyond being able to break of bad habits, and all the discipline in the world doesn't change them. Your options are either learn how to manage him if you really want to continue using him, sell him to a breeder who is experienced with handling ram of his nature, or have him butchered. 
Some breeders who do not want to manage rams year 'round will buy a fall weanling, use him for breeding, and ship him to Christmas market when they are through with him. 
A lot of the ram's temperment as a mature sheep is determined by how much he was handled as a lamb. Coddle them, halter break them, give them kisses and treats, and that cute ram lamb will be trying to take out your knees once he is a two year old. It is hard to resist coddling the ram lambs as they are so bold and curious compared to the ewes. 
Shetlands are an intelligent, primative breed. They are smart enough to be individuals, so we will always hear about exceptions to this rule. But they *are* exceptions. Coddling ruins many rams. 
Treat the ram as one would a stallion. Be firm, only handle them when you need to. You have to have that respect from them. Ignore them when they are young, except to do routine maintenance on them. Their job is not to be your friend, their job is to give you nice babies, and a nice fleece every year. 
I raise polled (hornless) shetlands, and I still carry a crook into the pen with me year round, no matter if it is the rut or not. There is always a first time for a ram to charge you. Guests are not allowed in the ram pen unless they are experienced shepherds. I respect my rams and they respect me and I have little troubles. 
I've had both horned and polled shetland rams and the pollies do not damage fencing and housing the way some of the horned rams do. So polled may be an option if you don't mind several generations of scurring in the ram lambs. 
I've also had gentle horned rams who did not damage property. It would be wrong to paint the entire breed with a broad brush based on the bad experiences of a few. 
The nastiest, most aggressive ram I had was a cute 'lil babydoll. The widdle pwecious rammy wammy would try to kill me everytime I entered the pasture. I've never had a shetland as aggressive as that little sucker.


----------



## jode (Oct 24, 2007)

Well, I ended up beating the snot out of this ram till he backed down - it had me panting and it took a long time. Then the next few times I went out there, I went with a 5-gallon bucket or two of water. I splashed him, then threw a bucket at him until he ran from me and that seems to have done the trick. Now, he shows no interest in coming up to me like he used to. I'll still never turn my back on him, and I still know what he is capable of, but at least now he keeps his distance so I can walk in to give them feed/water.


----------



## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

An aggressive ram toward people should be a dead ram. Ask yourself is this ram worth me being hurt or killed ? How about a visitor or your child.

There are lots of rams who will not challenge a person in pasture. In a small pen is different and they also get a tiney bit of leway in rut.

The last 1 I had challenged me 2 times he did not get a third chance. The kids enjoyed the jerky and the dogs enjoyed the rest.


Patty


----------



## jode (Oct 24, 2007)

Patty0315 said:


> An aggressive ram toward people should be a dead ram. Ask yourself is this ram worth me being hurt or killed ? How about a visitor or your child.



Nobody goes in the pen, it is not accessible, and I can handle my own. It's a chance I am willing to take. I think this ram was coddled as a youngster and I don't blame this on him or his genetics.:duel:


----------



## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

I have bottle raised rams that never became aggressive.

There are many men who have been injured by rams and with thinking you can handle yourself you might also get injured. Do not under estimate the power they have. 

I am not trying to tell you how to run your farm only what "I" think.

The decission is yours . The policy on my farm is no mean or bad animals.

Hopefully you never regret your decisiion.

Patty


----------



## jode (Oct 24, 2007)

There is no "thinking I can handle myself" I know I can. I have already been on the receiving end of many a full blown, step back 20 feet and charge attacks from this guy (before I got serious about becoming the top ram) and he has injured me by bruising my shins a bit, but that's it. You talk like I don't understand his power and I am telling you that I have faced him bare handed, caught his charge and thrown him on his back. I know how muchc power he has. I just treat him like I treat an intact bull. Very carefully.


----------



## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Well continue with the very carefull and never let your guard down.

I know of a person locally that if not for a large tree would have been dead from a ram who had always been fine. There were many broken bones involved and months of recovery.

I know for myself that I sometimes get busy and then look back and say o poop that was stupid I could have been hurt . By not sealing with mean animals I don't have to look back.

There isn't an animal with a pedigree or that nice looking worth chanceing it to me . I hope you have everything under control and never get hurt.

On a side note a good dog will save your butt if needed. Thats reason # 2 why the above person was not killed the dog heard the struggle from the barn and came running.

Patty


----------



## Shannonmcmom (Jul 18, 2005)

We had one ram that was very bad a giving a go. It didn't matter who went into the pen. My husband had beaten him with a stick on the face because he couldn't get away from the ram. It stopped him being aggressive for a bit but when your guard was down he knew and would take a run. He is in our freezer now after dealing with it for 3 years. The final straw was when my then 2 year old scaled the ram fence(he is fast) and was in there. I knew that keeping him wasn't in the best interest of our family.

We have also had wether that ended up going to the butcher because he never rammed me but everyone else he did. He was only about 5 months old but he went after my 4 year old son who just stepped out of the house.


----------



## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Well I thought maybe it was just me being over causious but Hubby who stand 6'4 and goes 250 in excellent shape agrees. 22 years in service with all kinds of combat , maxing pt tests in service , doing bounty work ,trapping coyotes and being wild in his younger years . with all that taken into account he says the ram would be jerky .

Problem is if he hits you and gets you down your done. I hope we never hear about this ram really hurting you.

Patty


----------



## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

The only thing that has worked for us is raising the rams from the time they are juveniles in a pen of rams. 

As long as we had one ram that was raised without other rams around, he was agressive to us. I never went in a pen where there was a ram without carrying a stick. 

When we started having more than one ram and putting replacements in with the group, they regarded each other as the opposition, and never bother us. They seem to regard people in the same category as a herding dog.


----------

