# Woman With Dementia Cited For Trespassing



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

https://5newsonline.com/2019/06/19/...spassing-after-ringing-doorbell-walking-away/



> AURORA, Colo. — Nancy Daoust came to Aurora Municipal Court on Monday morning to face a trespassing summons. But the 60-year-old honestly had no idea where she was or why.
> 
> "The fact that this is quote unquote being treated as a criminal matter is very frustrating. You know, I have to lose a day of work," Nancy's husband James Daoust told KDVR, who calls her ticket for trespassing a lack of compassion and common sense.
> 
> ...


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## jen32245 (Jun 29, 2019)

HermitJohn said:


> https://5newsonline.com/2019/06/19/...spassing-after-ringing-doorbell-walking-away/


Very sad. I've taken care of Alzheimer's and dementia patient's for year's and they struggle managing what's going on in their own mind's and brain's on a daily basis


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You know, I have to lose a day of work," Nancy's husband James Daoust told KDVR, who calls her ticket for trespassing a lack of compassion and common sense.


To me, common sense would dictate that you don't *let* your wife wander around if you know she may get lost. The person whose doorbell she rang had every right to call and report someone trespassing.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Unfortunately this might be the first official step in realizing she needs more care. Or requiring it. What if it had been a house with a aggressive dog? Or a scared homeowner? Traffic would be one of my major concerns. 

Sad situation without a doubt.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You don’t know all the circumstances.


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## jen32245 (Jun 29, 2019)

Bearfootfarm said:


> To me, common sense would dictate that you don't *let* your wife wander around if you know she may get lost. The person whose doorbell she rang had every right to call and report someone trespassing.


True. But beginning stages are difficult. They can come and go slowly in time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

jen32245 said:


> True. But beginning stages are difficult. They can come and go slowly in time.


It said she was diagnosed 2 years ago. 

The people whose house she approached would have no way of knowing her condition, and there's not much real detail in the story that isn't slanted. It's a bad situation for everyone.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You don’t know all the circumstances.


Your correct. The lady cited does not even know according to the article. That should be a concern in the future.


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## jen32245 (Jun 29, 2019)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It said she was diagnosed 2 years ago.
> 
> The people whose house she approached would have no way of knowing her condition, and there's not much real detail in the story that isn't slanted. It's a bad situation for everyone.


Ohhh my I didn't read the whole text. I agree, unfortunate situation for all.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

So somebody rings your doorbell then walks away. Is that really a reason to call the police? It's not like she left a burning bag of doggie doodoo on his front step.

I think it's very sad for her husband. I hope the charges get dismissed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> So somebody rings your doorbell then walks away. Is that really a reason to call the police? It's not like she left a burning bag of doggie doodoo on his front step.


We really don't know what else may have happened.
Maybe this isn't the first time she's done this.
The story is slanted to make her look innocent but really doesn't tell enough to reach conclusions.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

My curse is reading between the lines. A few things that pop out at me but are in no way facts necessarily. 

58 is awful young to have dementia. I am sure this was totally unexpected for both of them. 

Since he was mad about having to miss a day of work, I think he may be worried about the cost of treatment. He (might be) is living on the edge. She is not old enough for Medicare and neither is he. He may or may not have insurance at his job and even if he did there are still deductibles. People living on the edge often cant even afford the deductibles. 

95% of people will have to rely on some government assistance at least once in their life (SS included) so unless he is of that 5% he is in trouble with his finances. He doesn't know where to turn with his problem.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yea in this country, medical bills even with insurance can easily bankrupt you. Half the states, you might not even have insurance under Obamacare thanks to politics, you are waiting until you are 65 and Medicare. And believe it or not, everybody doesnt have huge close family for a support system. And most with family, that family has to work, who would believe it... Now with this diagnosis, this guy should qualify for aid, but that and $1 might buy you a cup of coffee. But again age and what state he lives in and POLITICS may mean his only option is locking her in the house while he is out trying to bring in some income. Not everybody can live on the air in Cincinnati, they need a job. 

These dementia folk can be fiendishly clever escaping. I dated a gal once whose mother died while I knew her. Her mother was in A MEDICAL LOCKDOWN FACILITY for this type patient with actual people that were suppose watch her, doors that werent supposed to let her out. She got out and died of exposure on her escape trip. So some guy trying to work for a living with no support system. He is pretty screwed, especially with neighbors like he apparently has that are frightened of their own shadow and call cops on everything. Kinda surprised cops wouldnt have some common sense with such person, but perhaps they are told to ignore common sense and do everything by the book to protect their jobs. Who knows. Maybe he is lucky cops didnt shoot her. Anymore they seem afraid of their shadows too and are forced to deal with mentally ill and dont seem to understand mentally ill dont react like normal rational criminal suspect so it scares them.

Few years back local cops shot some deaf kid cause he didnt obey their shouted orders. Yea not the people you want dealing with somebody not able to understand being shouted at and bullied by a para military force. Thats the one that made the news, sure this unfortunately is lot more common than is known.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If she has Pick' disease (frontal temporal dementia), it does present at an early age. But according to Mayo Clinic and all the other articles I found, it does not affect the memory until late in the disease. 

You may be right, BFF. The disease makes people do strange things. And the article does say that other neighbors are aware of her disease. 

But still, she was already off the property and they didn't claim there was anything damaged in the report. The complaining neighbor refused to talk to the husband or be interviewed so we can't get his side of the story. 

Still, it's a sad situation, IMO.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Yea in this country, medical bills even with insurance can easily bankrupt you. Half the states, you might not even have insurance under Obamacare thanks to politics, you are waiting until you are 65 and Medicare. And believe it or not, everybody doesnt have huge close family for a support system. And most with family, that family has to work, who would believe it... Now with this diagnosis, this guy should qualify for aid, but that and $1 might buy you a cup of coffee. But again age and what state he lives in and POLITICS may mean his only option is locking her in the house while he is out trying to bring in some income. Not everybody can live on the air in Cincinnati, they need a job.
> 
> These dementia folk can be fiendishly clever escaping. I dated a gal once whose mother died while I knew her. Her mother was in A MEDICAL LOCKDOWN FACILITY for this type patient with actual people that were suppose watch her, doors that werent supposed to let her out. She got out and died of exposure on her escape trip. So some guy trying to work for a living with no support system. He is pretty screwed, especially with neighbors like he apparently has that are frightened of their own shadow and call cops on everything. Kinda surprised cops wouldnt have some common sense with such person, but perhaps they are told to ignore common sense and do everything by the book to protect their jobs. Who knows. Maybe he is lucky cops didnt shoot her. Anymore they seem afraid of their shadows too and are forced to deal with mentally ill and dont seem to understand mentally ill dont react like normal rational criminal suspect so it scares them.
> 
> Few years back local cops shot some deaf kid cause he didnt obey their shouted orders. Yea not the people you want dealing with somebody not able to understand being shouted at and bullied by a para military force. Thats the one that made the news, sure this unfortunately is lot more common than is known.


Yeah, no easy answers at all.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> You may be right, BFF. The disease makes people do strange things. And the article does say that other neighbors are aware of her disease.
> 
> But still, she was already off the property and they didn't claim there was anything damaged in the report. The complaining neighbor refused to talk to the husband or be interviewed so we can't get his side of the story.


If you watch the video, it says she was already warned in April or May for doing the same thing.

The people have signs on the door saying "no solicitors".
It's not clear if they know her mental condition.

I think the husband needs to start treating her like a 3 year old, as in locking the doors so she can't go out unsupervised, and finding someone to stay with her when he is at work.

She's clearly not capable of being out on the streets alone, and it puts her at great risk.
It's sad that it's happened, but he can't keep making excuses and letting her roam the streets.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Unfortunately, early onset dementia isn't uncommon. 

"Early-onset Alzheimer's disease is diagnosed before age 65. The news is usually shocking, and it means you need to plan now for big changes ahead, so you'll be safe and get the care you need as time goes on.

The early-onset form most often shows up when you're in your 40s and 50s. But it's not unheard of for people to get it as young as their 30s." More info here: https://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/guide/early-onset-alzheimers#1

The bottom line is she shouldn't be wondering around even in her own neighborhood, and this incident will necessitate changes. She'll either have an in home companion or have to go to assisted living. 

And Hermit John's correct, her body could continue for another 25-30 year and have to be cared for at a medical facility the entire time. I don't care how wealthy anyone is, this level of care causes bankruptcy.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I'll try not to make this too long, but as already stated, there's likely a lot more to the story. 
I've got a few things to add as well.
I almost started a new thread on Alzheimer's/dementia last night as my wife and I were venting about how frustrated and emotionally drained we are becoming - and it's only the 2nd week of dealing with this! 

I think the charge will be dismissed if the court has any sense. The defendant has to be mentally competent to be convicted of a crime in this country. Most cases aren't this trivial and only a class A jerk would insist on it in this case.

There is so much about mental diseases that we don't know and such a wide range of symptoms and their frequency that I wouldn't judge too harshly until you've walked a mile in those shoes.

On other threads the breakdown or change in our social fabric has been discussed, usually about parenting or the homeless. We see here that most of the neighbors know and are sympathetic. But there's always one booger head in every crowd. That guy should get a visit from all the teenage hoodlums this Halloween.
Calling the cops on her for ringing a door bell and refusing to come to the door!
I'm sure he is irritated, but come on. Save the cop calling for REAL problems bud!
The poor guy went to the bathroom and POOF, she was gone.
Yes, it's like dealing with a 3 year old, only worse. Trust me, I know.

Pretty soon I'll install a key-only dead bolt on the front door of mom's house and the back door goes into a 5 ft. fenced yard which I can lock all the gates.
She thinks the only reason I put that up was for our dogs, but the neighbors and I know better. As the disease progresses, things will get worse. All I'm trying to do is let her stay in her home and keep as much of her independence and dignity as long as possible, until I can't any more.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You don’t know all the circumstances.


That does not stop most of us from offering the "right" solution, or at least our less than informed opinion.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> I'll try not to make this too long, but as already stated, there's likely a lot more to the story.
> I've got a few things to add as well.
> I almost started a new thread on Alzheimer's/dementia last night as my wife and I were venting about how frustrated and emotionally drained we are becoming - and it's only the 2nd week of dealing with this!
> 
> ...


One simple problem, the love is gone.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

That answer doesn’t follow.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> These dementia folk can be fiendishly clever escaping.


This. You think watching a toddler with a mission is difficult, imagine watching a toddler with all of the life experience and manual dexterity/size of an older adult. Then add in the "it's none of your business" or "stop trying to control me" attitudes and independence and you've got problems if they decide they want to do something.

My mom is luckily only in the very early stages of Parkinsonian Dementia, but some of the things she's done are just breathtaking and confusing. Because it's only the early stages, most of the time she's fine and thinking clearly. That makes it even more difficult to tell when she has to be watched more carefully, it's not like there's a flashing light on her forehead that notifies my siblings that she's having an episode and getting ready to do something really weird. 

Although that would be nice, someone should definitely work on inventing that.

That neighbor sounds like a real peach. My opinion just from the fact presented.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> This. You think watching a toddler with a mission is difficult, imagine watching a toddler with all of the life experience and manual dexterity/size of an older adult. Then add in the "it's none of your business" or "stop trying to control me" attitudes and independence and you've got problems if they decide they want to do something.
> 
> My mom is luckily only in the very early stages of Parkinsonian Dementia, but some of the things she's done are just breathtaking and confusing. Because it's only the early stages, most of the time she's fine and thinking clearly. That makes it even more difficult to tell when she has to be watched more carefully, it's not like there's a flashing light on her forehead that notifies my siblings that she's having an episode and getting ready to do something really weird.
> 
> ...


That is scary. It is scary as we age, and it is scary as we see our parents age.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> That is scary. It is scary as we age, and it is scary as we see our parents age.


My daughter keeps saying she's scared for when she has to take care of me. I should stop telling her about things I imagine doing but my impulse control keeps me from doing


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

As we can keep the heart pumping longer, and the limbs moving, the brain is misfiring. Living longer through the miracle of better medicine, and healthy lifestyles is a two edged sword.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I remember a call from a CARING sheriff's deputy one day. He found Momma on the street heading towards downtown and saw she was distressed. Said she was going home but didn't know where it was. He was able to get my name from her and called me. I told him she had escaped from the home she was in and would he please take her back. He did. I was at work 25 miles away. She lived another 6 years. Didn't know where she was going but sure didn't plan on being late. I couldn't keep up with her. I went from being Son to Honey to Daddy to that nice man. She had no clue who I was the last 4 years.
The neighbor should be ashamed of himself. He was slightly inconvenienced one day, big deal.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

whiterock said:


> I remember a call from a CARING sheriff's deputy one day. He found Momma on the street heading towards downtown and saw she was distressed. Said she was going home but didn't know where it was. He was able to get my name from her and called me. I told him she had escaped from the home she was in and would he please take her back. He did. I was at work 25 miles away. She lived another 6 years. Didn't know where she was going but sure didn't plan on being late. I couldn't keep up with her. I went from being Son to Honey to Daddy to that nice man. She had no clue who I was the last 4 years.
> The neighbor should be ashamed of himself. He was slightly inconvenienced one day, big deal.


I'm so sorry, that is so incredibly difficult.

This part though, made me laugh: "Didn't know where she was going but sure didn't plan on being late." That's my mom when she has one of her episodes, and she ain't stopping for hell or high water.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Had one aunt and 2 cousins from another aunt that bad mouthed me to any and all about not visiting Momma. They would ask her when I came last and she would say I hadn't. I could be standing next to her if she was asked that question and she would answer it the same. She didn't know who I was.
I fell out with them real fast.
She could go from sitting in her room to 200 feet down the hall before I could react and try to catch up to her. She was FAST.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

whiterock said:


> Had one aunt and 2 cousins from another aunt that bad mouthed me to any and all about not visiting Momma. They would ask her when I came last and she would say I hadn't. I could be standing next to her if she was asked that question and she would answer it the same. She didn't know who I was.
> I fell out with them real fast.
> She could go from sitting in her room to 200 feet down the hall before I could react and try to catch up to her. She was FAST.


My mom does the same thing. I don't visit her often because she's in AL and I'm in CA, but I try to call her a couple times a week. She doesn't remember most of the calls unless I can get her early enough in the morning (time changes make it hit or miss). So then I get a text from my sister or brother, "You should call mom, she misses you." And I text back, "I literally talked to her an hour ago for half an hour." "Oh, she said she hasn't heard from you in weeks." 

My mom isn't that fast, the Parkinson's keeps her speed in check. But she can be scarily sneaky and devious when she wants to be. It's kind of like having kids, according to my siblings, the time to start getting concerned is when everything goes quiet.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

That lady needs better caregiver...constant supervision. Only real issue I see here.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Alder said:


> That lady needs better caregiver...constant supervision. Only real issue I see here.


Yeah she does.
My mom has two, my wife and I, with full time jobs that we do in our spare time.
That "only real issue" is pretty dang huge.
Try it on for size if you have any doubts about that.


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## snowlady (Aug 1, 2011)

We have a family member who at 59 was diagnosed with early onset dementia. It started probably 5 years before diagnosis. It is really sad. Her husband is incapacitated with health issues of his own so at 60, he’s in a nursing home and she lives with her 80 something year old mom. They have no children. I have no doubt she would ring the bell and wander off. They may have warned her a couple of months ago but how is she supposed to remember that? They could warn her every day and it wouldn’t make a difference.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah she does.
> My mom has two, my wife and I, with full time jobs that we do in our spare time.
> That "only real issue" is pretty dang huge.
> Try it on for size if you have any doubts about that.


I have. I was my Alzheimer's mom's *only* caregiver for about three years. I had retired (before I was even 60) to care for her, she wouldn't sleep, wouldn't let me sleep and tried to knife/murder me in the middle of the night. That's when she had to go to 24/7/365 locked memory care. They need constant supervision...some earlier than others. Trying to half-ass it will either get them or somebody else hurt.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alder said:


> I have. I was my Alzheimer's mom's *only* caregiver for about three years until I had retired (before I was even 60) to care for her, she wouldn't sleep, wouldn't let me sleep and tried to knife/murder me in the middle of the night. That's when she had to go to 24/7/365 locked memory care.


My dearest friend was knocked down and got a subdural hematoma by her husband who is suffering from Alzheimer’s. That’s when he had to go into memory care.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Rough


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Grandpa woke up one night to find Grandma standing over him with a butcher knife.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

it's a damn scourge is what it is. I looked after 2 and don't think I could do it again. I only hope I'm in my right mind when I'm diagnosed. well that don't sound right but you know what I mean.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Is that loud music coming from the neighbors house why is he out in the back yard screaming profanity ?
"Yes sir officer he said he was going to go shoot up a walmart"............


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Alder said:


> I have. I was my Alzheimer's mom's *only* caregiver for about three years. I had retired (before I was even 60) to care for her, she wouldn't sleep, wouldn't let me sleep and tried to knife/murder me in the middle of the night. That's when she had to go to 24/7/365 locked memory care. They need constant supervision...some earlier than others. Trying to half-ass it will either get them or somebody else hurt.


That's true.
But you don't mind if we love them and try our best as we go do ya?
Some of us weren't born perfect. 
The guy's half ass mistake was using the friggen bathroom!


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> That's true.
> But you don't mind if we love them and try our best as we go do ya?
> Some of us weren't born perfect.
> The guy's half ass mistake was using the friggen bathroom!


After my experience I'll postulate that we all wait too long for memory care. The lady in the OP should be behind locked doors under 24 hour/day watch. I see nothing in the OP about him going to the bathroom. No idea where that came from. And if she's a routine wanderer (the article makes it sound like it) the situation is dangerous for her. They are the ones that end up wandering off and dying of hypothermia/dehydration in the woods or after hiding frightened, lost and alone for days in somebody's garden shed.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alder said:


> After my experience I'll postulate that we all wait too long for memory care. The lady in the OP should be behind locked doors under 24 hour/day watch. I see nothing in the OP about him going to the bathroom. No idea where that came from. And if she's a routine wanderer (the article makes it sound like it) the situation is dangerous for her. They are the ones that end up wandering off and dying of hypothermia/dehydration in the woods or after hiding frightened, lost and alone for days in somebody's garden shed.


From the article in the OP

"This particular day, she was laying on the couch, so I went to the bathroom. When I came out, she was gone. I went to get her and apparently she had already rang his doorbell," James said.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Alder said:


> After my experience I'll postulate that we all wait too long for memory care. The lady in the OP should be behind locked doors under 24 hour/day watch. I see nothing in the OP about him going to the bathroom. No idea where that came from. And if she's a routine wanderer (the article makes it sound like it) the situation is dangerous for her. They are the ones that end up wandering off and dying of hypothermia/dehydration in the woods or after hiding frightened, lost and alone for days in somebody's garden shed.


If you can afford it, sure. At 60 and not qualifying for Medicare yet, I hope they're independently wealthy or have exceptional health insurance. Or are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but outcomes with that are often worse than having no insurance, and I'm not sure I'd feel good about my spouse being in a home with only Medicaid covering them. I've seen how that works, which is why my MIL lives with us and my mother lives with my brother.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> The guy's half ass mistake was using the friggen bathroom!


Let's try to be honest.
It's really more complicated than that.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I know of a family with a lot of kids and their house is close to the road. I was there one day talking to the husband in the drive when their 5 year old came out of the front door with a noose around the neck of his younger brother.
The mother followed them onto the porch- "Now, you have fun but you two stay away from that highway, cause if I see you there again it is back in the house....for good!"


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Mish said:


> If you can afford it, sure. At 60 and not qualifying for Medicare yet, I hope they're independently wealthy or have exceptional health insurance. Or are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but outcomes with that are often worse than having no insurance, and I'm not sure I'd feel good about my spouse being in a home with only Medicaid covering them. I've seen how that works, which is why my MIL lives with us and my mother lives with my brother.


Don't discount the memory care places that take Medicaid. My mom was in one...part of the time self-pay (drained down the equity in their family home at $8-9,000.00/month) and part time on Medicaid. The facility was wonderful.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> If you can afford it, sure. At 60 and not qualifying for Medicare yet, I hope they're independently wealthy or have exceptional health insurance. Or are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but outcomes with that are often worse than having no insurance, and I'm not sure I'd feel good about my spouse being in a home with only Medicaid covering them. I've seen how that works, which is why my MIL lives with us and my mother lives with my brother.


You are correct. The outcome of Medicaid is that part or all of assets are taken to offset the medical debt. Part of the family farm was taken and sold when my grandmother had to go into a care facility (memory care is a new and pretty term), even though my uncle was using it as a business and it shouldn't have been touched. The farm was in both my uncle and grandmother's name.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> You are correct. The outcome of Medicaid is that part or all of assets are taken to offset the medical debt. Part of the family farm was taken and sold when my grandmother had to go into a care facility (memory care is a new and pretty term), even though my uncle was using it as a business and it shouldn't have been touched. The farm was in both my uncle and grandmother's name.


Yep.
That's one of the things that should be posted on the Alzheimer's thread.
We anticipate that could happen in the future when it's time, so there's a trust set up that assets can be transferred into so they can't be taken.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> Yep.
> That's one of the things that should be posted on the Alzheimer's thread.
> We anticipate that could happen in the future when it's time, so there's a trust set up that assets can be transferred into so they can't be taken.


In NY anyway, it has to be done 10-15 years prior to the onset of symptoms. When that happened to my uncle, Mr. Pixie's parents signed over their home to their kids. It worked for them, although neither had to go into long term care.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> In NY anyway, it has to be done 10-15 years prior to the onset of symptoms. When that happened to my uncle, Mr. Pixie's parents signed over their home to their kids. It worked for them, although neither had to go into long term care.


Huh.
I think the revocable trust was set up in 2002. It's a little different than a direct transfer of assets. The assets are put in the trust and the trustee(s) have control of them.
I know of laws that are designed to thwart the hiding of assets, but I think trusts have always been legally allowed.
That's the way the rich folks do it anyway.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Well, mom is out for her morning walk. She started doing that again last week.
I can watch her from here most of the way and she should be back in 30 minutes.
If not, me and the dogs will form a search party and find her quickly, lol.
She's in stage 4 of 7 but not ready for lock down yet.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

For the person who doesn't understand the importance of a safe place for Alzheimers patients with controlled egress, I hope you never have to deal with this in your own life. I suggest you visit a senior care facility and volunteer one day a week. You will be amazed.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER advocated putting anyone in jail. Just stated she needed more supervision. Also, again, there is nothing in the original OP quote that says anything about going to the bathroom. We ain't mind readers.

It's do or die with Alzheimer's dementia. Unless a family can provide 24 hour/day care when it becomes necessary, (either a damned BIG and cooperative, unusually devoted family or hired care) somebody will suffer greatly. The slow deterioration is inevitable. You are, I hope, aware that often the caregivers die before the dementia patient they are responsible for, simply from stress and physical/mental exhaustion? If not...consider yourself warned. Good luck. It's an awful road to travel.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Alder said:


> Don't discount the memory care places that take Medicaid. My mom was in one...part of the time self-pay (drained down the equity in their family home at $8-9,000.00/month) and part time on Medicaid. The facility was wonderful.


It probably depends on where you live as to what's available. The one my grandma ended up in wasn't the greatest, but there wasn't a lot of choice where she was. She started out in a nice, private care home but when her money ran out they transferred her into a pretty icky place. We tried to get her to move in with one of us (3 grandchildren were offering) but she refused to leave the area - don't want to make it sound like we stuffed her into a terrible home by our choice. Stubbornness runs in the family.



Irish Pixie said:


> You are correct. The outcome of Medicaid is that part or all of assets are taken to offset the medical debt. Part of the family farm was taken and sold when my grandmother had to go into a care facility (memory care is a new and pretty term), even though my uncle was using it as a business and it shouldn't have been touched. The farm was in both my uncle and grandmother's name.


Same sort of thing happened with my grandma. My mom was supposed to inherit their house (her brother got the business), and even though my mom's name has been on the title of the house along with her parents forever, the state took half of the sale of it. 

If any of you are in this situation with your kids or know someone who is, make sure you sign the house completely over before that's an issue. A long-term lease agreement or something will keep you in your home until you can't be, and possibly save your kids from losing part/all of their inheritance and the hassle that trying to settle things like this with the state becomes. My sister was handling the transactions since my mother isn't able to, she was about ready to stab her eyes out with a dull pencil.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Mish said:


> It probably depends on where you live as to what's available. The one my grandma ended up in wasn't the greatest, but there wasn't a lot of choice where she was. She started out in a nice, private care home but when her money ran out they transferred her into a pretty icky place. We tried to get her to move in with one of us (3 grandchildren were offering) but she refused to leave the area - don't want to make it sound like we stuffed her into a terrible home by our choice. Stubbornness runs in the family.


I figured out early that the key was to find a good facility that would transfer Mom over to Medicaid once her assets were depleted. I didn't want her to have to move ever again. Too unsettling/upsetting once she had grown used to and attached to the staff.

The patient's assets are what they are. THEIR assets that are there to pay for their care. Any question of "family inheritance" is secondary and basically flies out the window. In most instances, unless there is a transfer of those assets/property to another party a decade ahead, they will be attached for payment of care. Most people/families don't have the foresight to do it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No one has mentioned long term care insurance. My mother had it because of what she went through (willingly) taking care of HER mother for six years. 

My husband and I have long term care insurance. Hopefully, we won’t have to use it, but it will take the pressure off the family and protect assets.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Alder said:


> Don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER advocated putting anyone in jail. Just stated she needed more supervision. Also, again, there is nothing in the original OP quote that says anything about going to the bathroom. We ain't mind readers.
> 
> It's do or die with Alzheimer's dementia. Unless a family can provide 24 hour/day care when it becomes necessary, (either a damned BIG and cooperative, unusually devoted family or hired care) somebody will suffer greatly. The slow deterioration is inevitable. You are, I hope, aware that often the caregivers die before the dementia patient they are responsible for, simply from stress and physical/mental exhaustion? If not...consider yourself warned. Good luck. It's an awful road to travel.


I didn't put words in anybody's mouth.

[self deleted comment directed at mod who deleted my post]

I considered it "insulting" to say



Alder said:


> That lady needs better caregiver...constant supervision. Only real issue I see here.



But I'm wearing my big boy pants and it was just a little insult, certainly not worth the time and pettiness to report anything.

The man was doing the best he could and if someone's comment is being jerkish, I'm gonna say so.
You can bet the farm on THAT!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Shouldn’t the assets of someone going into long term care be used to provide for their care to whatever extent they can? Why should children inherit so that taxpayers bear the burden of someone’s long term care?
I can see why people want to do it but how does it jibe with conservative ideals of not having the government provide for us?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> No one has mentioned long term care insurance. My mother had it because of what she went through (willingly) taking care of HER mother for six years.
> 
> My husband and I have long term care insurance. Hopefully, we won’t have to use it, but it will take the pressure off the family and protect assets.


My Dad had LTCI, it was worthless. He had paid into it for years, and when the time came it had so many legal loopholes it was worthless. He made a bad purchase. I am sure some LTCI is good. Buyer beware.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Shouldn’t the assets of someone going into long term care be used to provide for their care to whatever extent they can? Why should children inherit so that taxpayers bear the burden of someone’s long term care?
> I can see why people want to do it but how does it jibe with conservative ideals of not having the government provide for us?


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> Shouldn’t the assets of someone going into long term care be used to provide for their care to. Whatever extent they can? Why should children inherit so that taxpayers bear the burden of someone’s long term care?
> I can see why people want to do it but how does it jibe with conservative ideals of not having the government provide for us?


All I'm saying is if you intend to leave property as an inheritance, be aware of what can happen. I'm not making any statements about who pays for what.

In my mom's case it was bad mostly because her brother got his inheritance when they retired (the business) and my mom's half was always meant to be the house plus $50k cash because the business was worth more than the house and he got his inheritance much ealier. She ended up getting no cash (it was gone toward medical care) and half the value of the house. So she got about a third of what they meant to leave her, which would have broken both their hearts had they known what was going to happen. Caused some strife between the two siblings, and some major irritation/hassle for my siblings and my cousins trying to settle things left unsettled.

They could have planned better, which is my only point - bought long-term care insurance, settled the house/business issue before they needed to, etc.

Thus my advice to those still able to do anything about it - plan better while you can. Don't leave it to your family to sort out and leave a bunch of hurt feelings, anger, and frustration for those who end up having to sort it out.

*edit - I am about 99% certain they paid more into the system in their lifetimes than they ever took out, if we do want to argue that. Both of them worked - hard - for around 70 years and had a successful business that they built from nothing. I've seen their tax bills over the years. 

If the system is set up a certain way, you can't blame people for wanting to use it, especially when they've paid taxes since they were teenagers and never took anything back until 65+. Maybe we should look changing at the system if we're against it taking care of old people who have paid into it their whole lives, instead of just taking care of those who haven't. Whole other discussion.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mish said:


> All I'm saying is if you intend to leave property as an inheritance, be aware of what can happen. I'm not making any statements about who pays for what.
> 
> In my mom's case it was bad mostly because her brother got his inheritance when they retired (the business) and my mom's half was always meant to be the house plus $50k cash because the business was worth more than the house and he got his inheritance much ealier. She ended up getting no cash (it was gone toward medical care) and half the value of the house. So she got about a third of what they meant to leave her, which would have broken both their hearts had they known what was going to happen. Caused some strife between the two siblings, and some major irritation/hassle for my siblings and my cousins trying to settle things left unsettled.
> 
> ...


No need to be defensive. I’m all for the elderly being cared for, and the young, and truly disabled. As well as our veterans. The argument that people have paid more into the system than they ever took out is an old one and frequently used to justify these things. However, we pay into a system to provide all kinds of things we use on an everyday basis. National and local security, infrastructure, public education, clean air and waters etc, etc, etc. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of how much we take from the system vs. how much we put back in without political bias.
I’m all for changing the system. But I’m always amazed by people who tout themselves as being conservative or libertarian who want to deprive children of free lunch, etc (because it’s their parents responsibility) who will immediately try to figure out how to get the state to pay for them or their loved ones in their twilight years.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> No need to be defensive. I’m all for the elderly being cared for, and the young, and truly disabled. As well as our veterans. The argument that people have paid more into the system than they ever took out is an old one and frequently used to justify these things. However, we pay into a system to provide all kinds of things we use on an everyday basis. National and local security, infrastructure, public education, clean air and waters etc, etc, etc. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of how much we take from the system vs. how much we put back in without political bias.
> I’m all for changing the system. But I’m always amazed by people who tout themselves as being conservative or libertarian who want to deprive children of free lunch, etc (because it’s their parents responsibility) who will immediately try to figure out how to get the state to pay for them or their loved ones in their twilight years.


Sorry if I came off as defensive, I wasn't meaning to sound that way. Just thinking out loud on that last part. It would be interesting to see a breakdown, of input vs output. We'll never see it though in any serious way, it would show how much we don't get from the system compared to what we put in.

My main thought about social programs is that if they weren't forced to pay for children's free lunches/other social programs and instead were left with that money in their pockets, maybe the state wouldn't have had to loan her money for care the last 5 months of her life. Loaned, because they got everything back they paid after she died. She didn't get a free lunch there, either, she paid her way right up to the end. That generation didn't get much in the way of free lunches over the course of their lives.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It's all about the money for most folks. After that, it's about not having to take care of an elderly person because it disrupts their lives.

It's NOT an easy time for anyone involved. I highly recommend that EVERYONE on this forum look into their situations and PLAN for those later years.

I see some ugly and awful issues in the futures of friends. It's because they think "everybody in the family knows what I want." Well, guess what. If you're senile or dead, it doesn't matter a flying rat's fanny what you THINK everybody knows.

Do your homework. Plan. Get it legally on paper.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> All I'm saying is if you intend to leave property as an inheritance, be aware of what can happen. I'm not making any statements about who pays for what.
> 
> In my mom's case it was bad mostly because her brother got his inheritance when they retired (the business) and my mom's half was always meant to be the house plus $50k cash because the business was worth more than the house and he got his inheritance much ealier. She ended up getting no cash (it was gone toward medical care) and half the value of the house. So she got about a third of what they meant to leave her, which would have broken both their hearts had they known what was going to happen. Caused some strife between the two siblings, and some major irritation/hassle for my siblings and my cousins trying to settle things left unsettled.
> 
> ...


In my uncle's situation it was a working dairy farm, aka business, and not supposed to be divided at that point. Medicaid would put a type of lien on it. Instead, they took a good sized hay field that wasn't contingent to the farm and said it was't part of the farm. My uncle asked if it was comparable to a business in town that had separate warehouses, could they take one of those? They said no because it was part of the business. He then asked what do you think a farm is? Crickets. And they took it anyway. He wouldn't fight it because grandma was being cared for by medicaid, and he felt he his responsibility to pay for it. But the loss of that hay field caused a problem feeding the cows.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mish said:


> Sorry if I came off as defensive, I wasn't meaning to sound that way. Just thinking out loud on that last part. It would be interesting to see a breakdown, of input vs output. We'll never see it though in any serious way, it would show how much we don't get from the system compared to what we put in.
> 
> My main thought about social programs is that if they weren't forced to pay for children's free lunches/other social programs and instead were left with that money in their pockets, maybe the state wouldn't have had to loan her money for care the last 5 months of her life. Loaned, because they got everything back they paid after she died. She didn't get a free lunch there, either, she paid her way right up to the end. That generation didn't get much in the way of free lunches over the course of their lives.


Here’s one look at it.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...re-and-social-security-what-you-paid-what-yo/

Im also disgusted by parents who can’t be bothered to send lunches to school with their kids. I just don’t want to see children suffer for their parents sins or lack of responsibility or maybe just misfortune. Or elderly dementia patients.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Alder said:


> Don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER advocated putting anyone in jail. Just stated she needed more supervision. Also, again, there is nothing in the original OP quote that says anything about going to the bathroom. We ain't mind readers.
> .


""This particular day, she was laying on the couch, so I went to the bathroom. When I came out, she was gone. I went to get her and apparently she had already rang his doorbell," James said."

This was in the article that was posted in the OP. The forum has rules about not copying and pasting entire articles.

I am not going to argue about her needing more supervision, apparently she does, for her own safety.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> The man was doing the best he could and if someone's comment is being jerkish, I'm gonna say so.
> You can bet the farm on THAT!


His "best" wasn't very good.
He knew there was a problem and did nothing to stop it.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> His "best" wasn't very good.
> He knew there was a problem and did nothing to stop it.


(Mod Edit)

Hopefully "perfect" isn't a new insult in GC.


How bout the jerk neighbor who called the cops?
Was that his best?
Or was that "very good" too?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> (Mod Edit)
> Walk a mile in someone's shoes before spouting off.
> Hopefully "perfect" isn't a new insult in GC.
> 
> ...



People don't always realize that a family member has declined to the point where they need more comprehensive can than they can provide and it isn't just a matter of annoying a neighbour by ringing their doorbell. 

Those very same people with dementia can quickly come to the point where they are at risk of self harm or a danger within their own home. 

My own grandfather wandered away from home in the middle of the night wearning a shirt, jeans and slippers and lost his way home, at -35C. If it weren't for the local baker finding him behind her shop, he would have froze to death, long before anyone knew he was gone. 

He also set the kitchen on fire when my grandmother was in the washroom when he moved a pot she had on the stove to set the newspaper in the same place and removed the receptacles in his room and left nothing but exposed electrical wires. 

It's a hard thing for families to understand that their loved one needs more care than they can offer. Watching someone every second is not possible and when it gets to that point, someone needs more care than an individual family member can offer. 

Maybe the neighbour is a jerk, maybe it's happened more often than we know or maybe it's simply time to admit that if one can't go to the washroom without worrying, that it may be time the woman needs more care than family can provide.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wr said:


> People don't always realize that a family member has declined to the point where they need more comprehensive can than they can provide and it isn't just a matter of annoying a neighbour by ringing their doorbell.
> 
> Those very same people with dementia can quickly come to the point where they are at risk of self harm or a danger within their own home.
> 
> ...


Yep, that's very true.
One reason why I'm at mom's is to prevent those things from happening - as much as humanly possible.
There are two problems though that have impossible or imperfect solutions that I've discovered on this difficult journey.

1) The "perfect" balance.
There are many similarities to raising a child only this situation runs in reverse.
You let a child have more reins as they age, balancing the challenges they can handle with trying to keep them safe.
Go to school by themselves, ride a bike, go on dates, etc.
With an adult with dementia, the abilities decline.
How fast, how far?
Impossible to know, just as every child is different.
In this case, you're constantly holding the reins and bringing them in, trying to do it not too fast and not too slow.
Occasionally you misjudge. That's life and what I meant that no one is perfect.
It's even harder with an adult who still has some of their mental facilities and is aware of what's going on and what you're doing. They will even try and fool you and don't bet that they can't!
How many times have we heard the battle over handing over the car keys from the elderly?
Multiply that by a 100 and you get the idea.

2) Timing.
When you DO need help, where can you get it and how fast can it get here?
I'm fortunate to have a great partner to help manage everything.
We know the time is coming when the job will be impossible even with both of us being very capable.
But that's going to be a dreadful day.
What I learned just recently is that this disease went thru the first 2 or 3 stages without raising any suspicion from us.
She's probably in the midst of stage 4 with a year or 2 to go when she hits stage 5. That's when the ability to communicate is lost.
I think at stage 6, a nursing home full time is necessary due to feeding and bathroom problems.
That only leaves the last stage where people linger until death.
So I've got maybe a few years or less to spend any real time with this person who gave birth to me 55 years ago.

The saddest part is that what little time is left is filled with frustration, resentment, anger and distrust. There are very few moments to express caring and love and have that feeling conveyed and accepted.
Those moments are as rare as 100k diamonds and worth more.

The husband in the OP has probably spent his adult life with the woman he married and loves. Soon she won't even know who he is.
With time being the most precious commodity on earth, who would give that up too soon or have it taken away by someone else that has no investment in it at all, because it was "inconvenient"?

I know it's easy to see one side of this, but wanted the side that's harder to see to be revealed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Quoted deleted



farmrbrown said:


> How bout the jerk neighbor who called the cops?
> Was that his best?
> Or was that "very good" too?


You've heard a one sided version of the story.
The person who called has a right to their privacy, and you don't know what else may have been left out of the story.

Sometimes people don't tell the whole truth in an attempt to sway opinions and get what they want.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> Yep, that's very true.
> One reason why I'm at mom's is to prevent those things from happening - as much as humanly possible.
> There are two problems though that have impossible or imperfect solutions that I've discovered on this difficult journey.
> 
> ...


Each journey is unique. My grandfather was very difficult right up until the end and I expected much the same when my father started down the same path. There are similarities but not the same. 

I know we missed things before it became obvious but I was told it's not uncommon because spouses have a tendency to cover for each other, even if it's not intentional. 

It was a hard decision to place my father but he's very well cared for and safe and we have a system sorted out so he's checked on daily. His care is excellent but I still feel excellent care is no substitute for family and a strong family presence ensures care remains excellent. 

I'm not sure about facilities in the US but in Alberta, we have long waiting lists for those facilities that deal with dementia related issues and in order for someone to be properly placed, they need to be properly assessed and that's a story on it's own. If assessments aren't current, we find people need placement and it takes time to do a proper assessment. 

For someone in your position, we do have great options. You would be eligible for respite care, her caregivers need a break, home care, if you were to find you need a hand with household chores and from there, we can access semi assisted living, assisted living and further options as needed.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've done that already.
> The fact remains he knew the problems and he did nothing to prevent it from happening.


That's not entirely true, is it?


> "This particular day, she was laying on the couch, so I went to the bathroom. When I came out, she was gone.


He checked on her, then went to the bathroom. Granted he didn't cuff her to the armrest before doing so.
Wouldn't THAT have made a news story to talk about?


> You've heard a one sided version of the story.
> The person who called has a right to their privacy, and you don't know what else may have been left out of the story.
> 
> Sometimes people don't tell the whole truth in an attempt to sway opinions and get what they want.


True.
What do you suppose it would take to hear from the "other side"?
She was standing at the door zombie-eyed, wielding a bloody knife?
At some point, you've heard enough of a story that nothing more will change anyone's viewpoint.
Am I right?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Quoted deleted
> 
> 
> You've heard a one sided version of the story.
> ...


You young whippersnappers, you get off my lawn.....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> That's not entirely true, is it?


Yes, it's totally true.
He knew of the problem and did nothing to prevent it.



farmrbrown said:


> What do you suppose it would take to hear from the "other side"?


Honesty.



farmrbrown said:


> He checked on her, then went to the bathroom. Granted he didn't *cuff her to the armrest* before doing so.


He didn't lock the doors either.
Ridiculous scenarios don't change what really occurred.



farmrbrown said:


> A*t some point, you've heard enough of a story* that nothing more will change anyone's viewpoint.
> Am I right?


Yes, once you've heard all the spin and the lies it becomes pointless to believe any longer.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wr said:


> Each journey is unique. My grandfather was very difficult right up until the end and I expected much the same when my father started down the same path. There are similarities but not the same.
> 
> I know we missed things before it became obvious but I was told it's not uncommon because spouses have a tendency to cover for each other, even if it's not intentional.
> 
> ...


Thank you.
We've been looking at different places and services, trying to get ready for that time, so she gets the best care possible throughout this journey.


I was probably the last one to admit how far my granddad had gone downhill. I didn't see him as often as the relatives he lived with and he was at his most coherent every time I showed up. I attribute that to our bond. We used to talk about financial stuff, business, man-to-man stuff, you know, ever since I was a kid in his lap. He even had his own shuffleboard court in the backyard, lol. He was one cool, old man in my eyes.

But that's when I learned to take the blinders off when it comes to this disease and be more aware.
Hiding it doesn't help anyone, that's for sure.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I worked with a woman who's brother had to divorce his wife so she could get proper dementia care. He was still working and was not always available to give written consent for needed non emergency care. Also his insurance had paid the lifetime maximum and he could not afford the nursing home care. The wife doesn't know him when he visits, he still loves her but knew she needed more care than he could possibly provide.

Sometimes it's very difficult for those closest to the patient to realize they cannot give the care the patient needs. And quite often that care is more expensive than the family can afford.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep.
And those people deserve harsh criticism and prosecution by the law to the fullest extent!
Oops.
I forgot to turn my sarcasm key off.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> Yep.
> And those people deserve harsh criticism and prosecution by the law to the fullest extent!
> Oops.
> I forgot to turn my sarcasm key off.


Ours doesn't work that way so perhaps your sarcasm should be directed at those who can change the system. Seniors will pay a percentage of their pension to reside in any type of public facility they require so someone who receives a very minimal pension would still receive exactly the same care as my father and yet my mother can still carry on without needing to worry that she needs to sell assets. 

Their meals are prepared by a red seal chef, he's taken to events every Friday night (one beer included), people come in during the week and play piano and have sing alongs in the common room, they are taken out in groups for small trips, including drives in the country and we can take him out any time we'd like and they will also do his laundry. I prefer to take care of his laundry because dementia patients tend to lose things so I can ensure that he has ample clothing, his shirts are not stained, no buttons are missing, etc. 

We do pay for extras, like a phone in his room, which he is incapable to calling out but we can call him and we have the choice of using facility provided furniture (hospital bed, plain dresser and a couple office type chairs) or provide something more familiar.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

There seems to be, IMO, a decided lack of compassion both in the event itself and from some members participating in this thread. 

The neighbor who pressed trespassing charges certainly lacks in compassion. One of my parent’s neighbors suffered from dementia before she passed and would occasionally escape the house. All of the neighbors kept an eye out and made sure she got safely home or they called her son with her location. None of them ever called the police.

I think that some posters on this thread who are castigating the husband are forgetting that, 1, no one is perfect and mistakes do happen and, 2, dementia is no respecter of persons and that lady or her husband could easily be them or their loved ones. Think about what you would want your neighbors to do if it were you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I think that some posters on this thread who are *castigating* the husband are forgetting that, 1, no one is perfect and mistakes do happen and, 2, dementia is no respecter of persons and that lady or her husband could easily be them or their loved ones.


Admitting reality isn't "castigating".

He knew she was prone to wandering, and didn't take precautions to prevent it.
This wasn't the first time it had happened.

That's a simple statement of facts, based on what is said in the article.

Making excuses is denial.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wr said:


> Ours doesn't work that way so perhaps your sarcasm should be directed at those who can change the system. Seniors will pay a percentage of their pension to reside in any type of public facility they require so someone who receives a very minimal pension would still receive exactly the same care as my father and yet my mother can still carry on without needing to worry that she needs to sell assets.
> 
> Their meals are prepared by a red seal chef, he's taken to events every Friday night (one beer included), people come in during the week and play piano and have sing alongs in the common room, they are taken out in groups for small trips, including drives in the country and we can take him out any time we'd like and they will also do his laundry. I prefer to take care of his laundry because dementia patients tend to lose things so I can ensure that he has ample clothing, his shirts are not stained, no buttons are missing, etc.
> 
> We do pay for extras, like a phone in his room, which he is incapable to calling out but we can call him and we have the choice of using facility provided furniture (hospital bed, plain dresser and a couple office type chairs) or provide something more familiar.


Nah, the sarcasm was directed at something entirely different, the "blame game" as I call it.
Sure there are negligent people in the world, but sometimes stuff just happens. My suggestion was keyed deadbolts or possibly childproof type locks, instead of just throwing out criticisms.
Of course there are problems with changing the locks. One is fire safety and the other is, if it's "childproof" it may not be adult proof. So then we get a whole new round of Monday morning quarterbacks.
Yes, the whole "system" could always be better, but my opinion has always been, that other people won't do as good a job as close friends and family members. 

The problem of _getting_ care is more obvious than the more difficult one. 
_WHEN_ to initiate those changes. It's not as obvious as some think.
I still let my mom go on walks by herself, but I try to keep an eye on her. There are lots of good days and some bad.
Even during the course of a day there are good and bad moments.
It's not like flipping a switch and at 12 noon on Monday, you know it's time.

You know we've had similar discussion on when to euthanize a pet.
Some people wait until the bitter end, some put a bullet in their head the 1st time they lose their bladder control in the house.

In a way what you said IS relevant through because not many have the funds for full time care at the first sign of symptoms. At this woman's age (58) I'd hate to calculate how many millions that might be.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Im glad the courts around here decided if you have a pathway to the door and a doorbell or door knocker going to the door and ringing the bell or knocking is not trespassing.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

D-BOONE said:


> Im glad the courts around here decided if you have a pathway to the door and a doorbell or door knocker going to the door and ringing the bell or knocking is not trespassing.


In this case she had previously been warned not to go there and do it again.
Your example only covers the first time someone does it.
That's why context matters.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Warning someone who can't remember things will not result in a conviction.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Warning someone who can't remember things will not result in a conviction.


Her guardian had been warned too.
He remembered.
The neighbors remembered
The police remembered.

If it had been his dog running loose he'd be held responsible.
The courts will decide if there's a "conviction", but that's really irrelevant in the context of her not being prevented from leaving the house unsupervised.

It also changes nothing about the comment I made on the law cited.

It only reinforces what I said about "context".
Thank you.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The women was charged with trespassing. The husband has no charges against him. The case was likely thrown out because the woman can not be convicted.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Problem solved


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> In this case she had previously been warned not to go there and do it again.
> Your example only covers the first time someone does it.
> That's why context matters.


WRONG ! here courts decided pathway and door bell is an invite to the public To keep someone specific out takes a restraining order.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

D-BOONE said:


> WRONG ! here courts decided pathway and door bell is an invite to the public To keep someone specific out takes a restraining order.


A sign that says "no solicitors" negates any implied "invite".
In this case, the woman had already been told to stay off the property.
You're still taking your example out of context.

I'd be happy to read the ruling though.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> The women was charged with trespassing. The husband has no charges against him. The case was likely thrown out because the woman can not be convicted.


Who said it has been thrown out?
The OP says "delayed 2 weeks".

No one but you said anything about him being "charged".

Whether or not she can be convicted is really irrelevant to my comments.
I'm not sure why you keep repeating it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> Yep, that's very true.
> One reason why I'm at mom's is to prevent those things from happening - as much as humanly possible.
> There are two problems though that have impossible or imperfect solutions that I've discovered on this difficult journey.
> 
> ...


 Wow !

I can’t really add anything to what you said except to say putting “like” at the bottom of your exemplary post didn’t seem sufficient.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A sign that says "no solicitors" negates any implied "invite".
> In this case, the woman had already been told to stay off the property.
> You're still taking your example out of context.


solicitor
[səˈlisədər]
NOUN

NORTH AMERICAN
a person who tries to obtain business orders, advertising, etc.; a canvasser.
NORTH AMERICAN
the chief law officer of a city, town, or government department.
BRITISH
a member of the legal profession qualified to deal with conveyancing, the drawing up of wills, and other legal matters.

 She wasnt selling anything or canvasing therefore the sign has no bearing and no legal standing.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

D-BOONE said:


> She wasnt selling anything or canvasing therefore the sign has *no bearing and no legal standing*


Neither does your alleged court ruling, but if you want to play word games:



> 2 Answers 2. A solicit/response operation is an operation in which the service endpoint sends a message and expects to receive an answering message in response.


One who rings a doorbell is "soliciting a response".

You also keep trying to ignore the *context *of this case in which she was told to stay off the property.

Simply repeating the same things won't change the outcome.
You haven't even shown your "ruling" exists.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

she can't remember.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Ringing a doorbell is not solicitation. Makes no difference if she was told. She can't remember what she was told.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Ringing a doorbell is not solicitation. Makes no difference if she was told. *She can't remember what she was told.*


You're entitled to your opinion about "solicitation".
It doesn't mean you're correct.

That's totally irrelevant to most of my comments though.
Her "caretaker" remembered and took no precautions to prevent her leaving the house.

The fact she "can't remember" doesn't negate the neighbor's right to privacy.
Had she injured herself on their property they could be held liable.

Since she doesn't speak, no one really knows what she "remembers".
We only know she was left unsupervised and that is what caused the problems.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Her caretaker was not charged. She is not responsible for her actions but was charged. A waste of time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Her caretaker was not charged.


You keep repeating that when no one has ever made any claims that he was.
You were quick to blame the "caretaker" of a gun on another thread though, along with an entire school district. It seems like a double standard to me.



painterswife said:


> She is not responsible for her actions but was charged. A waste of time.


He wasn't being "responsible" either.

It's not a "waste of time" to follow the laws.
Maybe this will make him realize he can't let her run around unsupervised.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Point out where I said anything about him and blame. I will wait.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> *Point out where I said anything about him and blame.* I will wait.


That's the whole point.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's the whole point.


I addressed only the fact that the woman was charged and should not be. You are the one telling me what I am saying when I did not discuss that part of the situation. Don't put words in my mouth.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I didn't.
> You didn't either.
> Again, that was the whole point.


 Maybe you could explain "supervision" and "responsibility" over another adult?
Perhaps you know something of his legal status, has she been declared incompetent and he given legal guardianship over her?


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Adults understand without needing any explanations.
> It doesn't require any "legal declarations" to exist.


Guardianship of Incapacitated or Disabled Persons. A guardianship is a crucial legal tool that allows one person or entity to make decisions for another (the ward ). Courts are tasked with establishing guardianships, and they typically appoint guardians in instances of incapacity or disability

So if it doesnt require any legal declaration to exist why must you have a court order to grant guardianship


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

D-BOONE said:


> Guardianship of Incapacitated or Disabled Persons. A guardianship is a crucial legal tool that allows one person or entity to make decisions for another (the ward ). Courts are tasked with establishing guardianships, and they typically appoint guardians in instances of incapacity or disability
> 
> So if it doesnt require any legal declaration to exist why must you have a court order to grant guardianship


Responsibility requires no legal declarations.
You keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with this particular case nor what I really said.

It's that "context" thing yet again.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Legal responsibility requires legal declarations.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Legal responsibility requires legal declarations.


I've heard that somewhere before.
It still has no bearing on my comments.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Adults understand without needing any explanations.
> It doesn't require any "legal declarations" to exist.


So this wasnt your comment??


Bearfootfarm said:


> Responsibility requires no legal declarations.


 Or this one?

Maybe you should reread what guardianship means,(HINT) like being responsible for someone else.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

D-BOONE said:


> Or this one?


Yes, "*Responsibility* requires no legal declarations".



D-BOONE said:


> Maybe you should reread what guardianship means,(HINT) like being responsible for someone else.


You're the one talking about "legal terms".
I never was.
Therein lies your confusion.

If you want to stick to "strictly legal" concepts, she was *legally* warned not to return to the property, and *legally* charged with trespassing. 

The outcome won't change that.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I would think criminal charges are legal instruments to assign blame. If you are not legally responsible for someone, you can't be legally charged for their actions.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I would think criminal charges are legal instruments to assign blame. If you are not legally responsible for someone, you can't be legally charged for their actions.


No one but you has mentioned "legal charges" for anyone else aside from her.
How many times have you repeated that now?
Has the outcome changed?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

bobp said:


> 911 should be reserved for true emergencies....


Do you have evidence they called an emergency number?
Is there evidence they even knew who rang the bell?
I don't recall seeing those details in the article.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I looked it up to verify....before responding......The local Fox 31 news report says the neighbor called 911..
As did others...I might miss my guess but most 911 systems can track those calls right down.....

They knew which guy did it, in the OP version the guys wife said he declined to come out and comment. SPOONBILL SPINED...we're not supposed to treat folks that way. What if it was YOUR mother or wife? Would you want someone to offer help or treat her like a criminal?

Bottom line....its wrong. The neighbor likley knew her, or knew of her illness....Trespassing as a primary crime is wrong....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

bobp said:


> Bottom line....*its wrong*.


As is letting someone known to suffer from dementia roam the streets.

Everyone has said it's a bad situation all around.
Stating the obvious does nothing to help though.



bobp said:


> SPOONBILL SPINED


Maybe he simply doesn't want to be harassed by the media and random SJW's from the internet.
Maybe he's disabled himself and can't easily get to the door to do hostile interviews.

He's not the one who created the situation.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

It is obvious that someone here has never dealt with dementia.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

IndyDave said:


> It is obvious that someone here has never dealt with dementia.


Different opinions doesn't mean someone hasn't dealt with it. I have and have very real concerns about any dementia patient that can escape their safe environment and wander the streets. 

My grandfather very nearly froze to death because my family was more concerned about what the neighbours would think that his own personal safety. 

My own father threw on his coat and walked out of a care facility not suited to his needs and was found walking down one of the busiest streets in Calgary, because my mother felt there is some stigma associated with a locked ward. 

I don't feel ringing someone's doorbell warrants criminal charges nor do I feel that it would be easy to get a conviction but I also wonder if this is actually a one time event or if there is more to the story.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Last cleanup was my last cleanup.


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