# WWYD ... a not-so-hypothetical question



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

With all of the recent threads on overbreeding, unwanted horses and rescue horses, thought I would throw this situation out and see what kind of feedback comes up.

Situation: Complete dispersal of small herd of Welsh ponies originally all registered but owner elderly, unable to keep up with paperwork, farm work, etc. so you have a number of yearling to 6 year old purebred Welsh ponies being sold (auction) not registered and not handled.

I have one. Lovely little mare, pretty, incredible movement, flashy color and about the time she came, I had to downsize. She wasn't handled consistently here until last year and I've never bred her. 

Now a 7 year old and one I'd kept because she would fit well into my breeding program. I would be breeding her to a bigger stallion so last summer brought her in to work with her as I would A.I. her rather than live cover. Not a mean bone in her body but very, very tense and in several weeks, saw no improvement. 

I will not keep something 'forever' that is not useful. I'm from a working ranch background and while we keep pets that are not strictly useful, a wild pony is not a pet. Her choices and mine are limited. 

I don't actually know yet what my solution is going to be here but am curious as to what others would do with this situation as this situation definitely fits in those "there isn't a market for this so what do you do with it?"


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If you can't use her and there's no sentimental attachment send her down the road, at least that's what I'd do. Tell her to write when she's found work.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> If you can't use her and there's no sentimental attachment send her down the road, at least that's what I'd do. Tell her to write when she's found work.


Well, this is actually the dilemma. There is no market. She isn't going to "find work". I've seen unbroke small ponies go through the auction ring and not get a single bid. If I do that, I'm likely to be out the expense of the trip to the auction, the cost of the auction process and end up having to bring her back home.

IF I could give her away she would be likely to end up tossed out in a pasture with a stallion to produce more small ponies to be ignored if they weren't sold as cute, fancy colored weanlings. :umno:


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

You have two choices- keep her or sell/give her away. The "write when she has work" was a joke, apparently not a good one. :ashamed:


----------



## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Is there anyway of getting her broke to ride? You cant even give away an unbroke horse, but a broke one you might just break even. I have one here that is green broke and I wont sell him for less than meat price and I certainly wont give him away. My only other option really is to spend $500 and have someone put 30 days training into him and hopefully have him turn out actually broke. And then i can sell him and hopefully get the original $500 I was asking plus the $500 it cost to train him. Broke horses are still worth at least $1000 where I live while unbroke isn't really worth anything.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> You have two choices- keep her or sell/give her away. The "write when she has work" was a joke, apparently not a good one. :ashamed:


I knew it was a joke ... and I've made some that weren't even *that* polite about this little mare. I've been known to tell her if she was in Montana and fur prices were decent she'd be coyote bait! :lookout:


----------



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm not sure of the actual dilemma - you don't want to breed her because she's rather wild, or you can't touch her at all so can't breed her? If she still fits in your breeding program, but just needs to be gentled, I'd find someone to work with her if you're not feeling up to the challenge.

If she's totally unsuitable, you have no intentions of reproducing her, and you know you'll simply lose money on her and you have no desire to keep her, then put her down.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Jackie said:


> Is there anyway of getting her broke to ride?


Unfortunately, no. She's too small for an adult to ride and at my age, I simply don't have the time and energy to put in to even getting her 'green broke' to drive. I'm also not sure, as tense and hyper-sensitive as she is that she would work out as a driving pony OR as a pony for a small child rider.

I don't have a lot of money in her and would certainly give her to someone IF I thought it would be a step forward for her rather than just a long trip to abuse and/or producing more 'unusable' small ponies for a market that doesn't exist.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

For me a big question would be do you want to risk a foal - 


SFM in KY said:


> as tense and hyper-sensitive as she is


Because while I know that the sire contributes to temperament, the foal is _watching_ the dam and reacting with her.

Would she be a big enough attribute in an irreplaceable only-THIS-mare-can-offer-this sort of way, to your breeding program to make up for this?
If not, then the hard answer that none of us want to hear is send her down the road. Or p.t.s. if you really feel there are no chances for her down the road.
BUT, hey, since I'm guessing it's not, and this is not-so-hypothetical, lets see a picture then. One of us may know someone who knows someone who could use her for something. 

And total thread drift, SFM, if a 2 yo looks about 12 HH, rough guesstimate on grown height? No info on sire but I should be able to see her and her mother in daylight this coming week. Someone can't pay me in cash for horse training, but they've got this filly ...:stars:


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

And why are you breeding more ponies when you can't even give one away?

I'd get her broke. She's tense because you've never handled her. Even on pasture, if you don't work with the horses, they are no different than wild mustangs and they really do not like being removed from their herd and they get claustrophobia in a barn. All of that can be worked with.

If she moves well and is sensitive, she'll make a really fancy driving horse. My first driving mare was all fire and brimstone, and I drove her all over the place, even out in traffic once she learned she could trust me to not get her hurt. She was flash as could be and sure drew a lot of attention.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

2horses said:


> I'm not sure of the actual dilemma - you don't want to breed her because she's rather wild, or you can't touch her at all so can't breed her? If she still fits in your breeding program, but just needs to be gentled, I'd find someone to work with her if you're not feeling up to the challenge.
> 
> If she's totally unsuitable, you have no intentions of reproducing her, and you know you'll simply lose money on her and you have no desire to keep her, then put her down.


All of the above, more or less. She's wild, but if you get her in a small pen, you can catch her and once you have a halter and lead on her, she's manageable, but every time you touch her she "freezes". I've worked with her consistently for 2 or 3 weeks and that doesn't seem to change. She's too small to live cover with the stallion I'd prefer to breed her to and when I have her in the squeeze and try to lift her tail, as I would if I were going to AI her, she clamps her tail down and crouches down. 

I wouldn't have bought her if I didn't think she would "work" in my breeding program but I also thought she would be more manageable once she was worked with. I really don't know, at this point, whether the temperament is inherent in her or mostly a result of not being handled. Some of the small Welsh ponies can be 'hot' ... the small pony version of the hot TBs ... not particularly suitable for a small child rider certainly ... so that's another of my concerns. If it's her and she would pass this on to her foals, then she should not be bred.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

2horses said:


> If she's totally unsuitable, you have no intentions of reproducing her, and you know you'll simply lose money on her and you have no desire to keep her, then put her down.


You would kill a young, healthy animal simply because you would loose money in finding her a home? I hope you didn't mean that. Using animals for meat, or euthanizing an ill animal, is very different than simply wasting a life because someone is too cheap to loose a little bit of money.

Give her away. Money isn't everything in life. Either spend the time to break her yourself or find her a good home even if it is at a loss to yourself. Do the kind, right thing. Your pocketbook is not God.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> And why are you breeding more ponies when you can't even give one away?
> 
> I'd get her broke. She's tense because you've never handled her. Even on pasture, if you don't work with the horses, they are no different than wild mustangs and they really do not like being removed from their herd and they get claustrophobia in a barn. All of that can be worked with.
> 
> If she moves well and is sensitive, she'll make a really fancy driving horse. My first driving mare was all fire and brimstone, and I drove her all over the place, even out in traffic once she learned she could trust me to not get her hurt. She was flash as could be and sure drew a lot of attention.


I can't give away a 7 year old unregistered, unhandled pony in the current market. Over the last three years I have not been breeding, I've been selling everything other than what I plan to keep for my 'retirement years' ... right now 8 mares, downsizing from about 30. Some were given away because I wanted them to go to particular people, others were sold. I bred three mares last year, with plans to keep one foal myself and another one already spoken for.

She was three years old when I got her and was not even halter broke. I have had her up and worked with her for three weeks on a daily basis, one or more times a day and have seen no real change in her attitude.

My thought with her was the same, actually, as yours ... with the movement and flashy color and quick reactions ... she should produce exceptional driving prospects.


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

OK, as someone who knows zip, zilch, zero about horse training, I'm going to ask a potentially stoopid question.

Is 2-3 weeks really enough time to expect a change if she was basically unhandled her entire life?


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> You would kill a young, healthy animal simply because you would loose money in finding her a home? I hope you didn't mean that. Using animals for meat, or euthanizing an ill animal, is very different than simply wasting a life because someone is too cheap to loose a little bit of money.
> 
> Give her away. Money isn't everything in life. Either spend the time to break her yourself or find her a good home even if it is at a loss to yourself. Do the kind, right thing. Your pocketbook is not God.


If I could give her away to a home I truly believed would do something with her rather than put her at risk of years of neglect, if not abuse, and the possibility that someone will use her to produce more 'unwanted' ponies ... I would. However, that person has not stepped forward. It's not a money situation ... it's the risk that she would be subjected to a miserable life.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

birchtreefarm said:


> OK, as someone who knows zip, zilch, zero about horse training, I'm going to ask a potentially stoopid question.
> 
> Is 2-3 weeks really enough time to expect a change if she was basically unhandled her entire life?


Yes. Not for a mustang or some of the ranch horses that I worked with years ago that basically never saw a person on foot more than once or twice in their life before they were brought in and started under saddle. However, for a pony that was in a smaller pasture situation, saw people on a regular basis and was fed hay in the winter by people, then you should see a change in attitude with regular, quiet handling in 2 to 3 weeks.

A friend of mine and I bought a total of four ponies out of that group of mares and the other three were manageable, even mostly relaxed in the same length of time.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> If I could give her away to a home I truly believed would do something with her rather than put her at risk of years of neglect, if not abuse, and the possibility that someone will use her to produce more 'unwanted' ponies ... I would. However, that person has not stepped forward. It's not a money situation ... it's the risk that she would be subjected to a miserable life.


Are we back to the meat thread yet?.........


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> BUT, hey, since I'm guessing it's not, and this is not-so-hypothetical, lets see a picture then. One of us may know someone who knows someone who could use her for something.
> 
> And total thread drift, SFM, if a 2 yo looks about 12 HH, rough guesstimate on grown height? No info on sire but I should be able to see her and her mother in daylight this coming week. Someone can't pay me in cash for horse training, but they've got this filly ...:stars:


Yeah, obviously the mare exists and she's mine and I've been more or less beating my head against a wall trying to make a decision ...










As for the size question ... difficult to say without knowing what both sire and dam are, not only size but breed. If they are both ponies, then you're not likely to have a big jump to mature size ... maybe another hand ... as most ponies have the most of their growth by the time they are 2 years old and will be finished by the time they are 3 or so. If there is 'horse' in the background you may get a little more size and with my warmblood crosses I will see mine continue to grow until they are 4 or 5 sometimes. Not a lot, but some.


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> Yes. Not for a mustang or some of the ranch horses that I worked with years ago that basically never saw a person on foot more than once or twice in their life before they were brought in and started under saddle. However, for a pony that was in a smaller pasture situation, saw people on a regular basis and was fed hay in the winter by people, then you should see a change in attitude with regular, quiet handling in 2 to 3 weeks.
> 
> A friend of mine and I bought a total of four ponies out of that group of mares and the other three were manageable, even mostly relaxed in the same length of time.


Good to know. Thanks!


----------



## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> Unfortunately, no. She's too small for an adult to ride and at my age, I simply don't have the time and energy to put in to even getting her 'green broke' to drive.


Solution is simple-- 
Track down a adolescent/teenager who is breaking horses. 
They're out there. 

They won't charge you as much because they know they _can't_, and they're light enough to be able to ride a pony. 
A friend of ours' 14 year old has been breaking sale-barn horses he picks up for next to nothing and selling for a profit. 
He started that little project when he was 12...

PS: If you were closer, I'd take her off your hands, KFM. Because heaven knows I need another project horse.


----------



## starjj (May 2, 2005)

OH darn IF she was big enough for me (and I know she isn't) I would be begging for her. Truth is I need a BROKE horse but I would so love to see her floating in my pasture


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Ive worked several horses like this, Im not hard core natural training but if shes that tense she needs physiological work done before any training can be useful.

Did you try to pairing up and how did she react to it if you did? Are you putting her back with the other horses when you get done fooling with her?
I have free board its just a time thing, do have some vacation time coming. 
I do NOT ride, but love building horses up from the ground


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

ErinP said:


> Solution is simple--
> Track down a adolescent/teenager who is breaking horses.
> They're out there. )


I WISH! 

I've been here 10 years and I have found just ONE good trainer here (who grew up and left). All the trainers locally are gaited horse trainers and that absolutely doesn't work for anything but a gaited horse.

Plus she's small, even for a light teenager ... I don't think she's much over 44" or 46" ... light framed.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Ive worked several horses like this, Im not hard core natural training but if shes that tense she needs physiological work done before any training can be useful.
> 
> Did you try to pairing up and how did she react to it if you did? Are you putting her back with the other horses when you get done fooling with her?
> I have free board its just a time thing, do have some vacation time coming.
> I do NOT ride, but love building horses up from the ground


The 3 weeks/ month I had her up, I kept her in the shelter pen (16 x 30), worked her there and she did not go out on pasture at all. I don't have a good roundpen setup for 'wild' horses/ponies so what little I did with her was pretty rudimentary and again, I didn't see any attitude change.

That's the one thing that bothers me the most about this little mare ... the other three mares from the same herd, same situation all came around quickly with less handling than I've put in on this little mare. Without papers and pedigrees, no way to tell if she is from a different bloodline and no history so no clue if she was ever in a situation the others weren't and it freaked her out.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

starjj said:


> OH darn IF she was big enough for me (and I know she isn't) I would be begging for her. Truth is I need a BROKE horse but I would so love to see her floating in my pasture


I know ... if you could ride/train I've got one I'd send you with the understanding if I ever found the 'perfect' stallion for her I'd get to breed her once for a foal.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

mekasmom said:


> You would kill a young, healthy animal simply because you would loose money in finding her a home? I hope you didn't mean that. Using animals for meat, or euthanizing an ill animal, is very different than simply wasting a life because someone is too cheap to loose a little bit of money.
> 
> Give her away. Money isn't everything in life. Either spend the time to break her yourself or find her a good home even if it is at a loss to yourself. Do the kind, right thing. Your pocketbook is not God.


I mean this in the gentlest, kindest way. If you really feel that way, I know where you can find this _lovely_ 7 yo Welsh mare who needs someone to care for her and pay all her bills for the next 20 years or so... And I also know of at least a dozen others from weanlings to 20. Can't save them all and I'd rather see a quick end then them having to deal with years of ignorance if not flat out neglect. Heck, I'd rather see some on a truck to Mexico rather then see some of the things I've seen. At least that's over in a couple of days, not weeks or years. 
You may also want to start putting some hours and dollars into your local animal shelter. Plenty of young, healthy animals there too. 

SFM, I can see how you'd be really torn. She is beautiful and that is some lovely movement she's got. If the other three tamed down just fine and she's still tense though, I don't think I'd breed her (said sitting safely without her in _my_ pasture) it's too bad there aren't more situations around like oregon woodsmoke's. She'd probably be a very good driving horse if she was one person's only focus. 
If I hear of any good situations for her I'll let you know.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> She'd probably be a very good driving horse if she was one person's only focus. If I hear of any good situations for her I'll let you know.


She's pretty, she has incredible movement, she's not stupid and she's never, ever, no matter how 'pressured' offered to bite or kick. Not a mean bone in her little body.

If an experienced adult could take her on as an 'only pony' project, she might well do extremely well but that is the only situation I would let her go into.

At 70 years of age, with other horses and ponies that also need attention, I simply do not have the time or energy to devote to just one that would require extensive work.

I can't say what my final decision will be but I do know that I will undoubtedly be agonizing over the options for the next several months. I've gone through this now for 3 years ... a decision WILL be made this spring.


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

if all else fails lmk and I may take her and use her as an example horse when we do our building classes. I really like she hasnt offered to kick or bite. Does she have a current coggins? Geez why am I even thinking about this.. lol.. 
We have several round pens for different levels of training at both the facilities Im a leasing agent for (hence "free" board). Im very intrigued to be honest


----------



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> You would kill a young, healthy animal simply because you would loose money in finding her a home? I hope you didn't mean that. Using animals for meat, or euthanizing an ill animal, is very different than simply wasting a life because someone is too cheap to loose a little bit of money.
> 
> Give her away. Money isn't everything in life. Either spend the time to break her yourself or find her a good home even if it is at a loss to yourself. Do the kind, right thing. Your pocketbook is not God.


You missed my point entirely. She may be young and healthy, but if she is older, flighty, unbroke, and unsuitable for breeding and/or riding and driving anyone remotely her size (kids) and thus unable to be *safely* rehomed due to temperament issues, then she is basically of no value other than the fact she is breathing As Otter pointed out, there are way too many unwanted, neglected, and surplus horses out there now and there are many times when euthanasia IS the kind, right thing to do. There are much worse fates for useless horses than a humane end.

Now, do I seriously think SFM is going to do that? No, of course not. She will work hard to find the little mare the right situation, as most everyone here on this board, including me, would. But, should that perfect home not materialize after all? You bet it's a viable option. One that has nothing to do with a pocketbook, and everything to do with responsible horse ownership.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cannon_Farms said:


> if all else fails lmk and I may take her and use her as an example horse when we do our building classes. I really like she hasnt offered to kick or bite. Does she have a current coggins? Geez why am I even thinking about this.. lol..


Probably for the same reason she's still here four years after I bought her ...

No, doesn't have a current Coggins, but I do have to have the vet out to get some 'maintenance' work done once the weather moderates a bit. I can have her up and he can pull blood. I only have to pay one farm call fee no matter how many different horses I have that need something done.

The one thing that actually convinced me to buy this mare and the other one as well was that none of these ponies had been even halter broke and some were maybe 6 and 8 years old. Watched the auction barn crew catch these ponies, get halters on them, tie them up and someone would start stripping burrs out of manes and tails. The ponies would fight the rope a few times and then stand and not a single pony in the entire herd, including 3 or 4 stallions, offered to bite, kick or strike.

I think that is one reason I keep thinking I will somehow figure out what is going on in her head and find my way around the problem.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

There's some pretty snarky and judgemental responses on this thread and that are not warranted or reasonable. 

SFM, is a very respected breeder with one of our own members having a very successful horse from her breeding program. 

She is not asking if she should breed nor is she indicating that she has no interest in turning a profit of this mare, she is simply asking for suggestions on how to handle this situation.


----------



## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

glad I'm a long way away 

that's a tough position to be in ... but I think your heart will guide you ...


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

brody said:


> glad I'm a long way away
> 
> that's a tough position to be in ... but I think your heart will guide you ...


It would be easier if 'heart' wasn't a consideration ...

There are so many things I like about this little mare, her type, her movement, her color. I'm an addicted breeder, of course, so the first thing I think is that bred to XX stud, she would produce bay or black sabino, a good chance of extensive, splashy white, eyecatching small driving pony ... or bred to a larger stallion maybe even medium or large pony and if the stud is a warmblood cross, the hot/over reactive temperament will be mellowed.

I just about convince myself and then I think, yes ... and if I'm wrong and I'm the one that puts that 'difficult' foal on the ground that makes it MY responsibility. So then I have the same questions to answer about both the mare and the foal.

There should be easier answers ...


----------



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Maybe she (the pony - well maybe Sharon too!) just needs a hug...... seriously though, it would be interesting to see if she could eventually be desensitized to the point where she could be handled, at least. Lotsa lotsa lotsa hands on. Like some young pony clubbers that just want a pony to brush on and love! If she doesn't try to hurt you, just hates to be touched, that may be easily overcome. But not a job for everyone.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

2horses said:


> Maybe she (the pony - well maybe Sharon too!) just needs a hug...... seriously though, it would be interesting to see if she could eventually be desensitized to the point where she could be handled, at least. Lotsa lotsa lotsa hands on.


She's very different from anything I've ever worked with before. She can be handled. She's hard to catch, have to put her in a small pen but once you get the halter and lead rope on she's obediant ... she learned to lead in about 20 minutes, not well, but she will lead. She doesn't try to jump away from your touch as long as you have her on a lead rope, she just freezes.

I am one of those people that tends to 'never' attribute horse problems to abuse because that generally (IMHO) is not usually the case ... not really. Lack of handling, lack of training but not too often actual abuse. But in the case of this little mare, I do find myself wondering.


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

If the pony were mine, and I were you, I probably would try to find someone who is looking for a project. Screen the applicants as well as you can, to make sure that the prospective owner knows what they are getting into. I guess only you can decide how long you want to search for a new home for her.


----------



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

And I can see your hesitation to breed her if you're worried her temperament is simply how she's wired, and that it may be passed on.

My sister fosters for a large rescue, and it's amazing some of the abused animals they see. I have never had a problem getting a horse to respond to, or at least acknowldge me, but she had one that so tuned people out it was like you weren't there at all. Could not get her to even turn an ear to me, and neither could anyone else. So sad. Her mind was just G O N E, and she was definitely NOT one that had a good outlook, but she's still in a foster home. But she still is gone mentally, just existing in her own little world.


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

ok, Ive been thinking. I dont know how far you are from me to know if this is practical. No, I dont want a pony, yes I do want a challenge because every time I work with one of these type of horses I learn more because you have to go outside the box. If you can get her down here Ill work with her for two months for free, if you want her "broke" to ride I have a great kid whom Ive gained a lot of respect for as a young horse woman. She adopted a wild mustang and within a couple of months was competing on her. Some parts of KY are moons away others are reasonable enough so thats my offer


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

oh, the saddle work cost would be between you and my girl but shes not going to charge a whole lot as Ill have her ready to ride before shes ever sat on


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Is it the pony in the first photo? She's lovely.

I can't ride a pony, either, which is why I'd have her in harness. She's be a gorgeous driving horse.

Does Tellington Touch work on horses? I'd try it on her.

Have you had her vision and hearing checked?

If she's getting any grain, stop the grain.

I've have only met maybe 2 horses in my life that couldn't learn. Some sort of brain damage, I guess. Neither one was flighty. They just had to start with step one all over again every day, no matter how many days you worked with them. They sure weren't anything like your mare. I think yours is just sensitive. Hot horses can turn their brains off when they get upset. You can work through that.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

oregon woodsmok said:


> And why are you breeding more ponies when you can't even give one away?


This is the kind of newbie post that just makes me roll my eyes. You have no background here and no idea what SFM does but you ask a snotty question like this?
SFM is every horseman's DREAM breeder. She's educated in genetics, she knows her market, she's a lifelong horsewoman, she's patient and she's very picky...and she's breeding for a specific purpose. 
My daughter happens to have one of her horses. We came all the way from Idaho to Kentucky to get her and the mare is an absolute star. Perfect temperament, extremely talented, great work ethic...even her feet are incredible.
If you'd read the thread more carefully, you'd have realized that SFM didn't breed this pony...it's not from her program. She took it on and it hasn't worked out. Sheesh..


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> This is the kind of newbie post that just makes me roll my eyes. You have no background here and no idea what SFM does but you ask a snotty question like this?
> SFM is every horseman's DREAM breeder. She's educated in genetics, she knows her market, she's a lifelong horsewoman, she's patient and she's very picky...and she's breeding for a specific purpose.
> My daughter happens to have one of her horses. We came all the way from Idaho to Kentucky to get her and the mare is an absolute star. Perfect temperament, extremely talented, great work ethic...even her feet are incredible.
> If you'd read the thread more carefully, you'd have realized that SFM didn't breed this pony...it's not from her program. She took it on and it hasn't worked out. Sheesh..


What Lisa said--if there is anyone that should be breeding it's SFM. She has forgotten more than most of us know and she is breeding the kind of ponies that anyone would be proud to own. If she wasn't so far away, I'd send my DGD over to spend one on one time with said pony. A ranch girl like SFM she's a small 13yr old that has been riding since she could sit up and is now learning dressage.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

<BLUSH> Gee, guys ... that's pretty heavy billing to have to live up to.

... and Molly, how far is too far? Does your DD need a 14.3 hand mare that needs a job?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> What Lisa said--if there is anyone that should be breeding it's SFM. She has forgotten more than most of us know and she is breeding the kind of ponies that anyone would be proud to own. If she wasn't so far away, I'd send my DGD over to spend one on one time with said pony. A ranch girl like SFM she's a small 13yr old that has been riding since she could sit up and is now learning dressage.


aha....is she looking for a pony? Like an eventing pony? (hehehe...don't you live fairly close to me?)


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> aha....is she looking for a pony? Like an eventing pony? (hehehe...don't you live fairly close to me?)


It's a darn good thing for us that they don't suspend people on this board for being enablers! We'd have been banned for life long ago!


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Yes Lisa, I live between you and Spokane. In fact you may know my oldest DD. She is a dressage rider and is planning to show some this year. She had to have knee surgery last year, tore up her knee working her dogs. the yr before her horse was hurt.
My dgd lives in NE OR near La Grande. She is riding her pony- a little over 12 hands I think-- but she is going to out grow her soon. The pony does everything from cutting to ranch sorting to jumping, and is starting dressage. Her cousins are just waiting for her to get passed down.
SMF I'll check with my DD- I don't think anyone has really planned for a horse for Jessie. Maybe a road trip is in the future? Wish you still lived out here, we could have a great time pony shopping!


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)




----------



## 2fat2fly (Jan 19, 2011)

Because I am new here I am going to bite my tongue. The intent of the original post has gone off track and needs to stay focused on the original topic.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

One thing I haven't tried yet and it's worked before for me with a couple of other 'difficult' equines, is putting them on a picket rope. Takes some preparatory work so they are not afraid of it and learn how to deal with tangles, but I have done it with several now and never had an injury. Once they are on a picket, they get led to water three times a day, they get moved under trees in the day (in the summer) and out on grass at night. I usually give them a handful of grain morning and night, but they are caught and led to the grain for that as well. I've never had one that did not learn that cooperating with people wasn't a good thing.

The last one that I did this with would walk up to you in the dry lot and put her head in the halter to be taken to grain or water by the end of a month or six weeks. When they are dependent on a human for everything, it seems to finally get through to them that people are not a bad thing.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I deleted one post because it wasn't relevant and any others deleted were because they quoted the irrelevant post. Maybe now we can get back to the business of offering friendly and non judgemental advice.


----------



## Witterbound (Sep 4, 2007)

Seems to me that you need to do what your head says, not your heart. If you don't keep around horses that don't pay their way, you need to breed her or take her to the auction. I'm not a breeder, but it seems to me that you could breed her, then if you like the outcome you keep her. It buys the mare a little time to "pay her way." If that doesn't work, you take her to the auction.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I would try the picket-rope thing. All you've got to loose is a little time.
And she's 14.3? Heck, I'm small enough to ride 14.3, in fact, I have very fond memories of a Welsh-looking 13hh pony who was NOT a child's pony and would spend the first 5 minutes of every ride proving it. Admittedly that was:teehee: pre childbirth and 15 pounds ago, but no reason a 14.3 can't be ridden by a small adult. 

I wish I was set up to work her for you. LOL, I have been finding myself saying that a lot lately.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> I would try the picket-rope thing. All you've got to loose is a little time.
> And she's 14.3? Heck, I'm small enough to ride 14.3, in fact, I have very fond memories of a Welsh-looking 13hh pony who was NOT a child's pony and would spend the first 5 minutes of every ride proving it.


No, that's the sportpony mare I mentioned that is looking for a working home ... she doesn't have issues except she's not been started saddle. 

The 'problem pony' is 11.2 at best, I think. I doubt she is 12 hands on tiptoe and pretty refined as well.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Aaah, sorry about the confusion. LOL, yeah, 11.2 is teeny. On the bright side, at that size and as pretty as she is you may be able to luck into a companion for bigger horse/yard art type of situation for her.


----------



## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

Ok, this is just a suggestion that has worked for me on the few horses I have started. I too ended up with two (at different times) that had not seen a human for the first 1.5-2 yrs of life. (Ranch bred QH crosses) They too would learn fast but wouldn't really like what ever it was I was doing. It was like everything was under protest. As I was a teenager at the time and had lots of homework to do, I started doing it in the pen with them. I wanted them to get used to me being there but not expecting anything out of them. (other than to not injury me) Basically, I sat in a lawn chair (in my overalls as it was cold) and read my text books and took notes. So there were pages flapping in the breeze and me constantly dropping my pencil, things like that. Sometimes, I would read out loud over a difficult part. This helped me sort out the info and got them used to my voice.

I always "worked" them at a different time. I would leave for at least 15 minutes (normally did chicken chores) than come back and start the training. Sometimes I left the lawn chair in there unfolded or folded. I was always in the area so I could make sure no accidents happened.

This seemed to help the "Wild Bunch". Maybe she needs more time just to get used to you not being a predator? Can you sit and read the newspaper and drink coffee in the morning with her? What about later in the day? Take a book? 

I don't know if this will help and I would be the first to admit, I have a lot to learn when it comes to training horses. Just thought I would throw out an idea!

Carrie in snowy and icey SD


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I've been thinking about this on and off since you posted it--and it really does make me think abuse is a good possibility. Does she have that sort of "my body is here, but I'm somewhere else" look when she gets scared--like you can't really reach her? Putting her on a picket line so she has to rely on you might work. 

A friend of ours took a Half Arab mare with an untouched 3 year old filly for a bad dept years ago. We worked with her for a month or so, she would do what we wanted and even we got her very green broke, but part of her never quite seemed like it was there. A tiny 12 year old girl came out with her Dad and wanted to buy her. She wanted a horse that looked like the real Flicka and this one did. We finally agreed to work the filly several more months, then sell her if they would board her with a friend out ours near their house.

To make a long story shorter--after they took her, and she still seemed detached- someone let her out in a pasture with a bunch of other horses trying to be helpful. She went through a fence and got cut all over. The girl spent the summer in her stall, taking care of her cuts, feeding her treats, and reading. When she healed she was a different horse, devoted to her owner and won everything in the local shows as well as several state 4-H championships. Needless to say she had a forever home, and whenever anyone they knew was looking for a horse they would call us.

I have seen that type of detachment in abused dogs and even a child or two. It takes a lot of time and patience to get them over it--but if it is from abuse not breeding, I'd give breeding a try. But I'm a sucker..............


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

My reluctance to breed her stems from the fact that I really do not believe her attitude comes from abuse. I saw the entire herd of Welsh ponies all go through the sale. None of them were halter broke/handled and all of them had been running together in one herd. The owner was elderly, fed/watered but that was the limit of his ability the last few years, so they all ran together in one pasture with no handling. I bought another mare from the herd and a friend bought two others and all three were here with this little mare. All four were equally stand-offish to start, the other three quickly adjusted to being handled and in two months I could walk up to them in the big corral and put a halter on. This mare I still have to put in a small pen to catch. She halter broke as quickly as the other three ... something like 20 minutes taught all of them to give to pressure and walk forward ... but she has never gotten people friendly. I just can't imagine that just this one particular mare would have been singled out and corralled and abused to the extent that she would react like this.

And as far as that goes, I'm probably a sucker too ... she is SO cute and except for the attitude/temperament so exactly what I wanted in a small Welsh broodmare.


----------



## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

I think she needs time one on one.She doesnt bite or kick shes not mean.I bought a pony from a man who raised ponies.situation like that 3 year olds never touched.pulled her out of the field threw a saddle on her she bucked like crazy.it took me the entire summer too get this pony too trust me.most horse trainers are used too dealing with horses handled from birth.i am no horse trainer but my grandmother was.we couldnt catch her she was afraid of the saddle.at the end of the summer my pony was not hard too catch.I think she needs more time.My sister and i rode this pony all summer.she learned too trust us.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

bluebird2o2 said:


> I think she needs time one on one.


What confuses me with this pony and the thing that makes me wonder if it is a problem with her temperament rather than simply not being handled is that I have actually spent more time with this pony, one on one, that I spent with the other three mares from the same herd all total.

All of the ponies were from the same farm, same herd, presumably the same kind of handling or not being handled. All four have been handled the same here as well and this is the only one of the four that has not changed and is still not comfortable with being handled.


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Sounds like she really is just one of those "difficult" horses who may take 3x the work (or more) than an average unhandled pony. She may turn out to be a good pony, or may not ever become anything of much use. Like you said, even if you would breed her, the foal may inherit her difficult personality, but maybe not - you can't predict what the foal might be like.


----------



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

After thinking about it a while, I think I would go ahead and breed her to one of your own stallions (to keep the costs of this experiment down), see what the baby is like and then go from there. You might as well, if you're going to feed her and she has other qualities you like. If the foal does inherit her temperament, then you know for sure. But if you get an excellent baby out of her, compliant and easy to train, then you just have to deal with the dam's limitations.

I know, easy for me to say, since it's not my horse and foal I may have to rehome if the baby doesn't turn out to be all that. But, even if it does wind up being like mom, would being handled as a foal help overcome that? Not sure what part that would have played in making this mare more comfortable with being handled. But it may be worth a shot.

I'd do it. Breed her. Give her a chance to make a good baby for you.


----------

