# Urban decay: Hopeless or potential?



## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I looked up some pictures of Flint Michigan because of the other thread. Abandoned houses, burned out cars, falling down buildings. 

Other then the crime I do not see the problem. There is so much potential there for anyone who would knuckle down and do things themselves. That place is a great opportunity for micro homesteading. Even the falling down buildings can be stripped down for raw material to build sheds and small barns. 

I also do not understand the crime. If people are getting welfare, food stamps, free phones, free education, free medical, and they have a roof over their head then what good reason is there to turn to crime. Please do not tell me that what they get is not enough. If you have a roof over your head, food to eat, and you have your family that is all you need. There is enough for need but not enough for greed. Greed is a bottomless pit.

All that empty space can be turned into gardens to feed oneself and their family if they were so inclined to pick up a shovel and a rake.
We have community gardens here that were once abandoned lots full of stolen cars, garbage, and fallen down buildings. We had homeless squatters who took over abandoned buildings and made them structurally sound. They even snaked in stolen electricity to light the place. They lived peacefully. poor but peaceful for the most part.


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## scooter (Mar 31, 2008)

The problem with Flint and so many cities is because of years of Democrat policies.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

My city has become more proactive on this issue but it is expensive and time consuming. Takes about a year and $15K per average residential property to get to the point that the house is down and the city owns the property. Longer if the property owner contests anything (which is why they specifically target out of state property owners, to cut down on that likelihood as some have dragged this out by several years by keeping building permits on the property without actually doing anything to them). 

Larger buildings like apartment complexes or old office buildings get much more expensive so they have city workers do those. It usually only happens on those when it burned without any insurance. Hiring demo companies to clear them out can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Some bad logic in you post.. As far as scrapping abandon buildings and houses, problem is, someone owns them.. so that makes it theft.. Even if it was taken back because of taxes, the government owns it.. 

Empty lots to garden on? trespassing... someone owns it.. 

Yeah, you could probably get away with it, but you are adding to the crime.. since you are breaking the law trespassing and stealing.

I can tell you've never been in a bad part of town... You'd understand all the crime if you had....


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

City Bound said:


> I also do not understand the crime. If people are getting welfare, food stamps, free phones, free education, free medical, and they have a roof over their head then what good reason is there to turn to crime. Please do not tell me that what they get is not enough. If you have a roof over your head, food to eat, and you have your family that is all you need. There is enough for need but not enough for greed. Greed is a bottomless pit.


What you wrote is NOT what motivates people. Power and control are two things that do. Crime is not always about getting more money - money is just a way of keeping score. 

Giving people all the things you mentioned is keeping them locked into their way of life. [with the exception of a very few like Ben Carson]


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Most of the crime comes from younger perps. Combine not having a job, no experience with a work ethic and drugs gives you a constant source of negative events. Having a lot of time on their hands is not good.

Check out Buffalo for recent lessons learned on resurrecting a city.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

City Bound said:


> There is so much potential there for anyone who would knuckle down and do things themselves.


That's the problem right there.
The people have been taught that they don't have to do things for themselves, and in fact, probably have no idea how to do things for themselves.
Just wait for the next government check, blame the Right and vote Democrat.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

cornhusker said:


> that's the problem right there.
> The people have been taught that they don't have to do things for themselves, and in fact, probably have no idea how to do things for themselves.
> Just wait for the next government check, blame the right and vote democrat.


amen!


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I think the jobs left the area (factories moved to china and Mexico) and so the working class people moved to new locations and those who didn't work to begin with stayed put. Then you are left with an uneducated, unmotivated, population so what company is going to want to invest there. Tax base is gone so cops, fire protection, city upkeep all go underfunded which just leads to more crime and despair. If your city looks like an abandoned war zone, your not going to worry much about fixing up your little hut!


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Some times I think I would be happy in a little hut.


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## deb_rn (Apr 16, 2010)

Welfare used to be short term help to get you back on your feet. NOW, it's a way of life and there are several generations in a family that have never worked for a living. Very sad to think that what started as a "hand up" has become a trap to keep people dependent and unable to care for themselves. The Bible says, if you don't work, you don't eat. With few exceptions of the severely disabled, that's how it was set up... now it's spiraled out of control!

Debbie


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Flint was a vibrant city at one time. Everyone had a job. When American cars were replaced with foreign cars the jobs disappeared. When I turned 18 and graduated from high school there were virtually no jobs available in Detroit. 1/3 of the work force was laid off. Same with Flint and Pontiac. Think about that. Your neighborhood, 1/3 of the workers suddenly out of work. Not enough other jobs to pick up the slack. Thousands of jobs lost and nothing for the young people. The loss of income did not happen over time, it happened suddenly. I know so many people who sat around waiting to be called back to work. First there was unemployment, then there was welfare. This is very disparaging to anyone who was raised to be proud of working for a living. Enter drugs. Yes, there were drugs before, but drug use skyrocketed. Enter police officers owning drug houses.

Ugly and uglier. No simple solutions. These are complicated problems. And, just so you know, most people in Flint are good people. It only takes a few to ruin it for the many. for every house you see that is not cared for, there are many that are with hard working families in them and kids that work hard in school. 

But Hey, they are down, so go ahead and kick them- it&#8217;s easy.

Myself, I would never even consider living in Flint or Saginaw. But, I would not consider living in any metro area.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

The problem I see is for too many decades the "leaders" in these cities have been giving money away to people to buy their votes and not spending it on the things government should be doing. It has now reached the point the amount of money needed to fix the problem is more than the 'fixed' city is worth.

Think about it like a house. Say for decades you spend almost all of your housing money buying new furniture, the latest high tech entertainment equipment and not on repairing the plumbing, fixing the leaking roof, replacing broken windows. At some point the cost of repairing the damage done by the neglect would be more than building a new house would.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

deb_rn said:


> Welfare used to be short term help to get you back on your feet. NOW, it's a way of life and there are several generations in a family that have never worked for a living. Very sad to think that what started as a "hand up" has become a trap to keep people dependent and unable to care for themselves. The Bible says, if you don't work, you don't eat. With few exceptions of the severely disabled, that's how it was set up... now it's spiraled out of control!
> 
> Debbie


Yeah, but they vote democrat, so nothing will change


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

simi-steading said:


> Some bad logic in you post.. As far as scrapping abandon buildings and houses, problem is, someone owns them.. so that makes it theft.. Even if it was taken back because of taxes, the government owns it..
> 
> Empty lots to garden on? trespassing... someone owns it..
> 
> ...


I did not mean break the law. Houses are being sold for a $50 in some of these bad areas. Some areas you can buy empty lots for $100. You don't need to break the law. Even on a low income there is potential for building a life, even more so then if the area was not depressed. At least low income people can finally afford some land and a house. 

I grew up in new York city during the 70's and 80's when the city was a crime fest. We had crack wars, massive poverty, abandoned houses and buildings all about. The play ground where I grew up was littered with stolen cars that were stripped and torched. Kids my age were making great money stealing cars, stripping them, or selling them off to chop shops. I got offers a few times to join in on stealing cars or selling drugs but I did not do it. I didn't have money growing up but I was not going to let that be an excuse to steal or mug people. So, yeah I know about bad parts of town. 

I also know that many of the people I knew who turned to crime did not have to turn to crime if they could just accept the small blessings in their life. God works small miracles in our lives daily. 

Instead of stealing as a youth I got odd jobs, a paper route, and a job in a beverage distributer. 

Many of the people in flint and Detroit are just digging themselves deeper into the hole and dragging others along with them by turning to crime and drugs.

"keep calm and carry on" "this too shall pass"


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Walking through a bad Spanish area last year I saw a woman who turned her ground floor kitchen window into a business. She had a menu on the window and a few seats on the side walk. You placed your order at her window and she handed it to you through the window. Another woman on the same block had a small table outside her building where she did santaria consultations and did palm reading. In china town people set up shops in door ways and alleys selling whatever they can. They set up shoe repair shops on blankets on the sidewalk and mend shoes. They make seedlings and sell them from bags on the side walk in spring. They sharpen knives on the street. Sell food from shopping carts. We have side walk mechanics who work on cars on the street for people. We have people who collect bottles everyday and bring back the refunds. I know a little old Chinese lady who collects bottles every day to put her grandson through private school so that he can get a decent job and help the family out of poverty. In one of the poorer black areas the local residents who have community gardens in abandoned lots got permission to sell their produce by the local gov. They set up a little farmers market and they are doing great with sales. The people are fighting urban blight and decay and helping themselves get out of poverty at the same time.

Some of these things may not be 100% legal but they are a heck of a lot more wholesome then killing, drug dealing, and stealing. The people I mentioned may be poor but they are not making poor choices. They are trying to climb out of poverty in a decent and respectable way. No one told them to do these things, they just picked themselves up and took their life into their own hands.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Declan said:


> My city has become more proactive on this issue but it is expensive and time consuming. Takes about a year and $15K per average residential property to get to the point that the house is down and the city owns the property. Longer if the property owner contests anything (which is why they specifically target out of state property owners, to cut down on that likelihood as some have dragged this out by several years by keeping building permits on the property without actually doing anything to them).
> 
> Larger buildings like apartment complexes or old office buildings get much more expensive so they have city workers do those. It usually only happens on those when it burned without any insurance. Hiring demo companies to clear them out can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.


Interesting. Can see why the situation is stuck in a rut.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

City Bound, there are always a few who make it out of poverty and I'm glad you are one of them. As another poster pointed out - this is a multi-faceted issue. I think you are thinking wishfully - not looking at reality today. Different cultures have different work ethics. Our work ethics are going down the tubes, since welfare seems to be eroding our ethics and having people become victims.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

City Bound said:


> Interesting. Can see why the situation is stuck in a rut.


Sure I get it. The city does go a little too far at times. Habitat is the only organization they will work with. The Historical Society has tried to save some of these houses if the city would just give them a little time to find an interested person from their pool of rehab people and get a contract on them, but the city won't work with them at all because they have rubbed politicians noses in a few things. 

Another problem that aggravated the situation was targeted code enforcement of rental units in poorer areas which has caused a lot of landlords just to stop renting their properties out. It is too expensive to do the upgrades for the rent they could ever expect to fetch if they have to gut the houses, do lead paint abatement and the like. There is probably enough asbestos shingle siding in my city to reach to Mars and back.


One thing is that the country and my city both have an overstock of housing. In my city it is because the population is consistently declining and people just want brand new houses with no work that needs to be done. Ultimately they are doing the right thing in the long run, but it is not without short-term consequences.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

City Bound, Those $100 vacant lots still have to have property taxes paid on them every year. I had 2 houses that burned down in the last few years. Property taxes ran about $175 per lot per year. I sold one for a dollar and one for five dollars and paid the lawyer fees.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

City Bound said:


> I looked up some pictures of Flint Michigan because of the other thread. Abandoned houses, burned out cars, falling down buildings.


My son played Jr. Hockey in Flint for 2 years.......so I do know a wee little bit.



> Other then the crime I do not see the problem. There is so much potential there for anyone who would knuckle down and do things themselves. That place is a great opportunity for micro homesteading. Even the falling down buildings can be stripped down for raw material to build sheds and small barns.


1. The mindset; it's the mindset that keeps Flint in the gutter.
Do a little work that trained circus monkeys could do, for outrageous pay and the inflexibility to see how dumb that was in the first place and the lack of humility to change and doing something else.
2. Crime.
3. The place is toxic; poisoned soil, poisoned water, poisoned air......



> I also do not understand the crime. If people are getting welfare, food stamps, free phones, free education, free medical, and they have a roof over their head then what good reason is there to turn to crime. Please do not tell me that what they get is not enough. If you have a roof over your head, food to eat, and you have your family that is all you need. There is enough for need but not enough for greed. Greed is a bottomless pit.


It's their way of life, their culture if you will; their MIND SET.
Entitlement is the problem.



> All that empty space can be turned into gardens to feed oneself and their family if they were so inclined to pick up a shovel and a rake.
> We have community gardens here that were once abandoned lots full of stolen cars, garbage, and fallen down buildings. We had homeless squatters who took over abandoned buildings and made them structurally sound. They even snaked in stolen electricity to light the place. They lived peacefully. poor but peaceful for the most part.


The soil is poisoned, the water is poisoned, and the hearts of the people are poisoned.
There are folks in Appalachia that have less, yet not only make do w/ what they have? They thrive......they work the land, care for each other, etc

Different mindset.
Different hearts.


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Its hopeless - why - because if you were to look at the real reason things are the way they are the PC police will jump all over you - over 73% of black children are born to single mothers - then are raised without a traditional family - the family is the basic foundation of society and without the support of a family the kids are lost - 

Yes the democrats keep giving the people everything free so they can get them to vote for them - in the meantime the people have lost all pride and drive - now the democrats are trying to increase the immigrants coming into the country for the same reason - 

Boy I'll tell you something - if a democrat becomes the next president - it is all over - you may as well take downs the stars and strips and put up a pair of soiled underwear


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

joepa said:


> its hopeless - why - because if you were to look at the real reason things are the way they are the pc police will jump all over you - over 73% of black children are born to single mothers - then are raised without a traditional family - the family is the basic foundation of society and without the support of a family the kids are lost -
> 
> *i have a friend who grew up in communist russia. She said that the communist party was anti family. She said that they try to drive it into your head from the day you are born that the party is your real family. She also said that they are taught to consider their husband or wife their fellow comrade, sort of like a friend. The concept of a traditional family as many conservatives know it was seen as a threat to the party. Family loyalty was almost considered treason.*
> 
> ...


llllllllllllllllllllllllll


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree Laura. Mindset is what I was thinking about in the OP. Depending on a person's mindset the situation is ether hopeless or an awesome chance for potential for low income people.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

TripleD said:


> City Bound, Those $100 vacant lots still have to have property taxes paid on them every year. I had 2 houses that burned down in the last few years. Property taxes ran about $175 per lot per year. I sold one for a dollar and one for five dollars and paid the lawyer fees.


That is a great opportunity for low income people to buy land. The money saved by growing food on the land could be used to pay the taxes. 

I pay $100 for a permit for a community garden plot. I grow $600 worth of food on that plot. An empty house lot is ten times bigger then what I grow on. $6000 worth of food could be grown on that lot. That more then covers the taxes.


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Are you kidding - you grow some food on a city lot and then someone will steal everything including the weeds - its hopeless I tell you - hopeless


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

TripleD said:


> City Bound, Those $100 vacant lots still have to have property taxes paid on them every year. I had 2 houses that burned down in the last few years. Property taxes ran about $175 per lot per year. I sold one for a dollar and one for five dollars and paid the lawyer fees.


More proof that big gov't is a big part of the problem. The simple solution is to exempt the first $25 - 50K or so of property value and not have minimum tax payments. But gov't greed loves the money and power that comes from taxing authority, so I doubt it will happen.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> That's the problem right there.
> The people have been taught that they don't have to do things for themselves, and in fact, probably have no idea how to do things for themselves.
> Just wait for the next government check, blame the Right and vote Democrat.


Recent water problems in Flint will eventually be resolved, but the underlying problem persists. The automotive industry pulled out of the area and there's no fall-back industry to replace it. It's nobody's fault. This is one of the growing pains from globalization. It was going to happen sooner or later.

The best hope I see for Flint is for retired baby boomers to settle there. Many baby boomers have lost their retirement through company failures. They're concerned about how comfortably they'll retire, or whether they'll be able to retire at all. Buying a home outright for $5000 can solve that problem for a lot of baby boomers. Without rent or house payments they can retire earlier and a lot more comfortably.

A cottage industry of taking care of the elderly will spring up. That additional work will make life better for younger families.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JoePa said:


> Are you kidding - you grow some food on a city lot and then someone will steal everything including the weeds - its hopeless I tell you - hopeless


Not to mention the food will be poisoned because the ground is contaminated.
Lead, chemicals, asbestos.....you name it.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Recent water problems in Flint will eventually be resolved, but the underlying problem persists. The automotive industry pulled out of the area and there's no fall-back industry to replace it. It's nobody's fault. This is one of the growing pains from globalization. It was going to happen sooner or later.
> 
> The best hope I see for Flint is for retired baby boomers to settle there. Many baby boomers have lost their retirement through company failures. They're concerned about how comfortably they'll retire, or whether they'll be able to retire at all. Buying a home outright for $5000 can solve that problem for a lot of baby boomers. Without rent or house payments they can retire earlier and a lot more comfortably.
> 
> A cottage industry of taking care of the elderly will spring up. That additional work will make life better for younger families.


Sounds good, but how are you going to get people to retire to and invest in an area riddled with drugs and crime?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> Sounds good, but how are you going to get people to retire to and invest in an area riddled with drugs and crime?


You don't buy a house in problem areas.

Considering the map below, the problem areas are concentrated north of I-69 and west of I-475. That's basically the NW portion of town, which encompasses about half the area of Flint. Areas east of I-475 and areas south of I-69 aren't known for those problems.

The thing to keep in mind is that Flint is not Detroit.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Hey, pick up a decent house for a bottom of the bucket price. I looked on Realtor.com...there's 111 houses for less than 10K. *IF* you have your own, stable income, would be doable.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Flint_MI/price-na-10000

Some of those houses for 6K would bring 30-40K here, in the same condition.

I spent some years just west of Flint in the '50's-60's, was a clean, decent working man's town.

Mon


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Flint and Detroit are mirror images.
Burton is a hole.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

frogmammy said:


> Some of those houses for 6K would bring 30-40K here, in the same condition.


You would need a lot more than that around here.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

It might take some time, but you can bet there are some bargains to be had and that there are some shrewd investors who will make out very well on these depressed properties.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Fishindude said:


> It might take some time, but you can bet there are some bargains to be had and that there are some shrewd investors who will make out very well on these depressed properties.


Not sure about Flynt but not if it like Detroit. They load homeowners up with millage fees that make it too expensive to own and maintain a lot of that property that has fallen into disrepair.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Millage fees?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

JoePa said:


> Are you kidding - you grow some food on a city lot and then someone will steal everything including the weeds - its hopeless I tell you - hopeless


 
Most people wont eat a veggie even if you put a gun to their head. Some barbwire fence and a dog will keep most people out. 

Things are better then they use to be here but people use barbwire and razor wire on feces here. Some people put razor wire between shared roofs so thieves cant walk onto their side of the roof and break in. 
Houses in the bad areas have bars on the windows and doors.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Fishindude said:


> It might take some time, but you can bet there are some bargains to be had and that there are some shrewd investors who will make out very well on these depressed properties.


 If one had money maybe the best thing to do is buy the land and wait. Pay the taxes and eventually the area will be gentrified and you can make some money selling the land.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Not to mention the food will be poisoned because the ground is contaminated.
> Lead, chemicals, asbestos.....you name it.


 is it really contaminated? I would imagine the factory area is but the housing areas?


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

When I lived in Montana it was after the big copper mines all shut down. According to the locals all of the pipe fitters, big truck operators and boiler makers left town and work all around the state where they are sent by the union. I suspect it was the union that helped close the copper mines. The folks who stayed in town were the retired folks who had lived there all their lives and the folks who were on the government dole. Then of course Butte became a service worker type city with lots of bars, casinos and title loan places. Folks without jobs who actually did not want to work (not talking about those who legitimately were not able to work) made trouble for the remaining citizens by way of driving drunk, selling and using drugs, stealing from the homes of the retired and vandalizing the vacant buildings. It was really sad and I expect the same thing is/has happened to Flint. I know for a fact it happened to a place called St Josephs Michigan I think it was.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Unions are good and unions are bad. I vaguely recall the auto union demanded outrageous salaries from the companies. They got the wages. I guess the workers enjoyed their higher wage while all the while the company was trying to figure out how to cut the workers out of the picture. Move to another country.......that solves the problem.

Gov was making it hard to make money also. It was a boom as well, and booms bust.

Fracking is making some money now and people will jobs there but the ride has to end sometime. People need to be prepared for the end.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Unions are good and unions are bad. I vaguely recall the auto union demanded outrageous salaries from the companies. They got the wages. I guess the workers enjoyed their higher wage while all the while the company was trying to figure out how to cut the workers out of the picture. Move to another country.......that solves the problem.
> 
> Gov was making it hard to make money also. It was a boom as well, and booms bust.
> 
> Fracking is making some money now and people will jobs there but the ride has to end sometime. People need to be prepared for the end.


There's nobody to blame. As I said, it was going to happen sooner or later regardless of what unions, auto manufacturers, or even the government did. It's just the nature of globalization.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I vaguely recall that there were riots in Detroit and that the city was torched by rioters.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Riots were in 1967, long time ago. Detroit is being rebuilt but most people are unaware of the land mass it covers. They are starting farms in town and have been planting forests for a few years now. That's how open it is. Almost 138 square miles of land. Money is coming in and the city is beginning to respond. It will be one of the newest cities in North America. Everything will be rebuilt. Ten years from now it won't be recognized. Buy now while it's still cheap but values are starting to skyrocket, an average of 10% or better the last few years.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Recent water problems in Flint will eventually be resolved, but the underlying problem persists. The automotive industry pulled out of the area and there's no fall-back industry to replace it. It's nobody's fault. This is one of the growing pains from globalization. It was going to happen sooner or later.
> 
> The best hope I see for Flint is for retired baby boomers to settle there. Many baby boomers have lost their retirement through company failures. They're concerned about how comfortably they'll retire, or whether they'll be able to retire at all. Buying a home outright for $5000 can solve that problem for a lot of baby boomers. Without rent or house payments they can retire earlier and a lot more comfortably.
> 
> A cottage industry of taking care of the elderly will spring up. That additional work will make life better for younger families.


Retirees? Really? Have you ever heard anyone say when they retire they are going to move to a city where the average temp in January is 22 and the average snow fall is 13 inches?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

watcher said:


> Retirees? Really? Have you ever heard anyone say when they retire they are going to move to a city where the average temp in January is 22 and the average snow fall is 13 inches?


Canadians looking for nicer weather?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Robotron said:


> Riots were in 1967, long time ago. Detroit is being rebuilt but most people are unaware of the land mass it covers. They are starting farms in town and have been planting forests for a few years now. That's how open it is. Almost 138 square miles of land. Money is coming in and the city is beginning to respond. It will be one of the newest cities in North America. Everything will be rebuilt. Ten years from now it won't be recognized. Buy now while it's still cheap but values are starting to skyrocket, an average of 10% or better the last few years.


You are correct. I know a few real estate investors that have an eye for Detroit. its working for them so far. In certain areas of course but _soon??? _most areas will be targeted.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

City Bound said:


> I vaguely recall that there were riots in Detroit and that the city was torched by rioters.


Happens every Halloween......


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

They have targeted Devils night since they mid eighties very aggressively. Last year we had fewer fires than a normal day would bring. So beat on Detriot all you want but like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, it's beginning to spread its wings!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Robotron said:


> They have targeted Devils night since they mid eighties very aggressively. Last year we had fewer fires than a normal day would bring. So beat on Detriot all you want but like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, it's beginning to spread its wings!


Not beatin' on her......she is what she is.
She is also living proof that you cannot be a 'one horse town'....IE: Automotive.

With all the businesses running for Mexico for the cheap labor and no restrictions and burdensome taxes it's hard to rebuild a city.
You have little spots where mom and pop restaurants/shops are going in......but that's not going to lift a city out of the toilet.

The cops don't even want to go out after dark; it's that bad.

In the last 10 years I have watched Indianapolis turn into a shooting gallery.

3 Hours N? Chicago
4 Hours NE? Detroit
4 Hours SW? St. Louis
3 Hours S? Loisville

Guess who's in the middle? Indianapolis.......it's turning into a 'drug and gang' town. 
I-65m US31 are major drug highways......it's sad, but it's true.

Don't think I'm just punkin' on your city.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Not beatin' on her......she is what she is.
> She is also living proof that you cannot be a 'one horse town'....IE: Automotive.
> .



That is an interesting point. Makes me think how even more destructive this pattern will be when it happens in the third world countries that these industries went to. China is going to be a mess when all that imported industry dries up or moves.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Robotron said:


> They have targeted Devils night since they mid eighties very aggressively. Last year we had fewer fires than a normal day would bring. So beat on Detriot all you want but like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, it's beginning to spread its wings!


Detroit has the same major problems most of these cities have. They have been ran into the ground by their elected officials spending money on things to buy votes rather than keeping their city in shape. 

Its a lot better for a pol when the voters see a new 'free' government daycare program or a new community center and such than having voters inconvenienced by a city project to replace outdated water/sewer line or not seeing anything at all by buying new or more garbage trucks.

I'm afraid that the cost-benefit ratio for repairing these cities may be just too high on the cost side to make people willing to spend the money.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Detroit has the same major problems most of these cities have. They have been ran into the ground by their elected officials spending money on things to buy votes rather than keeping their city in shape.
> 
> Its a lot better for a pol when the voters see a new 'free' government daycare program or a new community center and such than having voters inconvenienced by a city project to replace outdated water/sewer line or not seeing anything at all by buying new or more garbage trucks.
> 
> I'm afraid that the cost-benefit ratio for repairing these cities may be just too high on the cost side to make people willing to spend the money.


Detroit was a victim of globalization. It didn't matter what the government did, there still wouldn't have been enough tax revenue to run the city. 

Detroit was especially hard hit because it mostly depended on a single industry. When the auto industry took on serious competition from Honda & Toyota they had nothing to fall back on.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Detroit was especially hard hit because it mostly depended on a single industry. When the auto industry took on serious competition from Honda & Toyota they had nothing to fall back on.



Standards slipped in the American auto industry and the Japanese filled that gap in standards with better cars that were better made and got better mpg. American consumers went with the better deal and I don't blame them. Up until recently the Japanese made better cars, electronics, and motorcycles.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Standards slipped in the American auto industry and the Japanese filled that gap in standards with better cars that were better made and got better mpg. American consumers went with the better deal and I don't blame them. Up until recently the Japanese made better cars, electronics, and motorcycles.


I remember Detroit during it's heyday when I was a kid. We had a cottage on an island in the Strait of Mackinac, so one time while traveling there from Ohio we stopped in Detroit. I remember that trip very well. We stayed at the Dearborn Inn and visited Greenfield Village, the Ford Rotunda, and toured a car assembly plant. I remember being particularly taken aback at watching a foreman yelling at an assembly line employee. I couldn't help wondering how many cars didn't get whatever the employee did as they passed by.

But in the early 1960s Detroit was a going city. I'm amazed to see current photos.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> I remember Detroit during it's heyday when I was a kid. We had a cottage on an island in the Strait of Mackinac, so one time while traveling there from Ohio we stopped in Detroit. I remember that trip very well. We stayed at the Dearborn Inn and visited Greenfield Village, the Ford Rotunda, and toured a car assembly plant. I remember being particularly taken aback at watching a foreman yelling at an assembly line employee. I couldn't help wondering how many cars didn't get whatever the employee did as they passed by.
> 
> But in the early 1960s Detroit was a going city. I'm amazed to see current photos.


I am confused. Are you saying that the foreman was yelling at the employee for leaving parts off?


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

Darren said:


> Most of the crime comes from younger perps. Combine not having a job, no experience with a work ethic and drugs gives you a constant source of negative events. Having a lot of time on their hands is not good.
> 
> Check out Buffalo for recent lessons learned on resurrecting a city.


split families, parents who are engaged probably work multiple jobs, long hours just to stay afloat. Government assistance isn't easy street as so many believe. I would just as soon people have assistance than nothing. People say move to where there are jobs, how? 

People inheritantly want to prosper but when there are generations living that way. How are they to know another way? I'm not saying there isn't abuses, but at some point someone needs to look at helping in a different manner. 

Leaders in communities need to lead. Giving money obviously isn't working.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I am confused. Are you saying that the foreman was yelling at the employee for leaving parts off?


I don't know what he was being yelled at for, but it was pretty obvious that he wasn't able to do his job while being yelled at.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Echoesechos said:


> split families, parents who are engaged probably work multiple jobs, long hours just to stay afloat. Government assistance isn't easy street as so many believe. I would just as soon people have assistance than nothing. People say move to where there are jobs, how?
> 
> People inheritantly want to prosper but when there are generations living that way. How are they to know another way? I'm not saying there isn't abuses, but at some point someone needs to look at helping in a different manner.
> 
> Leaders in communities need to lead. Giving money obviously isn't working.


Welfare was never intended to lift people out of poverty. It was only intended to provide a minimum level for support.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Echoesechos said:


> split families, parents who are engaged probably work multiple jobs, long hours just to stay afloat. Government assistance isn't easy street as so many believe. I would just as soon people have assistance than nothing. People say move to where there are jobs, how?
> 
> People inheritantly want to prosper but when there are generations living that way. How are they to know another way? I'm not saying there isn't abuses, but at some point someone needs to look at helping in a different manner.
> 
> Leaders in communities need to lead. Giving money obviously isn't working.


 I think depending on leaders is always a plan to fail. People are better off when they are the leader of their own life, the captain of their own ship. The problem with following leaders is that if the leader goes astray or he or she dies then the mindless followers are left without understanding or direction.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm talking community leaders not our professional elected politicians. If a family member needed assistance I would hope they could get it and not be blamed for the worlds ills. We need to stop or break that cycle. Until there is a plan and commitment to try a different method we will never change. "We" all know there is more life has to offer and that hard work and respect gets us by but if you don't know that..... 

This is a knew thought process for me. I'm trying to be more understanding and thinking outside the box in our community. I've been involved in leadership and community vitality training/planning for almost two years. What we have is not working, now how can we change that. Obviously it won't be our elected officials, they have special interests and their own agenda. 

I don't know but I don't want to feel hopeless.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

I have a different perspective than most. I see a lot of complaints about our failing cities. Here, there, everywhere. I travel for my job and have for almost twenty five years. At first it was global but as the buyouts occurred it's mostly North America now with the occasional trip to Europe. Been asked about going to Asia but not sure if I want to. I spend a fair amount of time in Mexico but not at the vacation villa's. Wherever I end up and it may be for months at a time, it's an industrial city. A lot of complaints here although valid are truly first world problems. Some of the things I see compared to what we are dealing with is down right horrible. Most places would welcome our complaints, problems, and troubles if the could get to that point. At the moment I sitting about 40 miles west of Toronto. Listening to the news it's the same thing we are complaining about. People killing each other, lack of understanding and tolerance. This is the global problem. Things that I have learned over the years are most people are the same. They want three basic things in life. 
1, a roof over their heads. 
2, a regular meal. 
3, the opportunity for their children to do better. 
Give most people those three things and most are happy and peaceful. 
Greed is the cause of most of the strife in our world. This is what we, we the people need to change. A hungry mind will turn to an angry mind. Just a matter of time. And once it does it comes looking for what you have and is willing to take by force if needed. Want to stop illegal immigration? Easy, get them a job in their home area that allows them to survive. Nobody wants to be away from their family and friends for long periods of time just to make a paycheck. I know, not too long ago I finished a job in Kentucky. It was supposed to be 3 weeks on and three weeks home. That was doable, reality was I took my daughter to visit the university that she wanted to attend for a visit and didn't make back until graduation. That's a long time from home. We have enough in this world for all to have their needs met through productive enterprises. And we can and should quit the throat cutting that is business today. I will step down from the soap box now. I won't see home till late next week due to failure to engineer the job I'm on right now. 2 days have turned into 7 quick. Please be nice to each as its all we have.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

pishposh. Greed is good. Are you using an Apple or Microsoft produce? Both of those companies were started and run by men who had a great desire for far more than they could ever possibly need to live an extremely good life. And the world has benefited from their greed in many ways. Greed is only bad when it causes theft thru taxation by the gov't or illegal/immoral actions in business.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Robo that was the question I was tryng to bring up in the op. What is the problem? Is it really so hopeless or are the people choices making it hopeless. people in these decaying areas have a roof over their head, food to eat, and if they work productively their kids could have a better life. "a better life" today is not the same as a better life in the past. We need to come back down to reality and accept a more modest and humble "better life" if we really want t be at peace with reality. 

If people get food stamps then why should they be hungry? Maybe they are making poor shopping choices. You cant eat steak if you can barely afford chicken. Maybe they do not cook from scratch which cost more then cooking convenience. Well, a smart person would pull their head out of their pants and start learning to cook. Make the food stamps last the month. Conserve on electric use if you cant afford the bill. They have roofs over their heads. Hammer a piece of tin on the roof if it leaks. It is still a roof and home is where the heart is


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

DEKE01 said:


> pishposh. Greed is good. Are you using an Apple or Microsoft produce? Both of those companies were started and run by men who had a great desire for far more than they could ever possibly need to live an extremely good life. And the world has benefited from their greed in many ways. Greed is only bad when it causes theft thru taxation by the gov't or illegal/immoral actions in business.


Then there's the greed that trashed the economy and put millions of Americans out of work when the recession started.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Bill gates wore the same low cost clothes all his career. The guy was very simple in lifestyle. Bill gates made loads of money but I doubt he did it for greed. he seemed to do what he did because he was driven to.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

City Bound said:


> I looked up some pictures of Flint Michigan because of the other thread. Abandoned houses, burned out cars, falling down buildings.
> 
> Other then the crime I do not see the problem. There is so much potential there for anyone who would knuckle down and do things themselves. That place is a great opportunity for micro homesteading. Even the falling down buildings can be stripped down for raw material to build sheds and small barns.
> 
> ...


If you think Flint looks bad, look at the decay of Detroit when the last of the country boys went back home and forgot to turn out the lights in Motor City as domestic auto production and related support industries moved south into Dixie.

I have heard they are trying to raze the worse outlying burned out areas and reduce the city footprint but it hasn't been too effective against the still overly corrupt municipal government.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm sure that's the view from Alabama but when I'm down there in Alabama working I wonder how the locals survive that crap. It's all perspective and most need to broaden theirs. Maybe visit Detroit, you might be surprised that things are moving up. There is still immense talent through out the area. Detriot is still one leg of the golden triangle for advanced manufacturing. And that's keeping and creating the jobs of our future.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

City bound, you have stated that your involved in trying to change things locally for your area. That is how I believe change has to happen. Lots of the downtrodden masses have no clue let alone the leadership or tools to just change the circumstances present. Someone must teach and that falls on all of us to do what we can. I view every call I'm on as an opportunity to teach and I use them. Though I get involved in very complex problems on the my job when equipment or processes are down, I don't see problems. I see oppurtunities and that changes your thinking as you see solutions instead. If all I see are problems then the short rope out the hotel high floor window appears to be appealing. I refuse to accept that! We can all learn and teach. This we must do. I will continue to do this one person at a time if need be. Keep up the good work, we need more like you.


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

The problems of the cities took years of democrat/liberal control to create and that cannot be turned around in a short time. However, until people wise up and learn that liberals must never be in charge of anything the problems will only get worse. Liberals couldn't run a pop stand without giving away their profits, and that is simply stupid. I keep what I earn and others should do the same. I never let an opportunity to screw the government get by me.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

1948CaseVAI said:


> The problems of the cities took years of democrat/liberal control to create and that cannot be turned around in a short time. However, until people wise up and learn that liberals must never be in charge of anything the problems will only get worse. Liberals couldn't run a pop stand without giving away their profits, and that is simply stupid. I keep what I earn and others should do the same. I never let an opportunity to screw the government get by me.


The problem around here is that property tax income is based on property values, which have cratered. Real property values have partially recovered, but property tax income hasn't kept pace. That's because of state law.

By state law, property taxes in Nevada fall as property values fall, but as as property values recover the tax can increase by no more that 3% per year. The result is that city & county income dropped sharply 10 years ago during the mortgage crisis, but property tax income hasn't kept pace with rising property values.

What I've noticed is that cities & counties haven't been good at cutting costs to match income. Most cities are running at a deficit.

It's not a republican or democrat thing. They simply don't have enough money to do what they're doing.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

1948 has a good point. Whatever city or state that is run by liberals usually falls apart. I was on the fence about both parties because I did not know enough about politics to make my mind up. I still do not know enough about politics but I know that the dems are wrong. I know they are wrong because when the recession hit so many states, cities, and municipal services that had been controlled and run by dems were on the verge of bankruptcy and failure. That observation was living proof that their daydreams and utopian fantasies do not work in reality.

My state NY and my city Ny were on the verge of bankruptcy. The governor and the mayor were on tv saying that we needed to cut back just to survive. The MTA that runs the subways and busses here in the city was almost bankrupt. 

Mayor bloomburg was a jerk when it came to his proposed ban on soda and his restrictions on public smoking but he is a good business man and without his help during the first wave of the recession the city would have been in serious danger. If we had an incompetent hardline ideologue like the jerk we have for a mayor now then this city would have been in a real crisis. 

In contrast, conservative run states like texas were stable during the recession with a surplus of money. 

It is very complicated how the liberals destroy the things they manage but they do. The proof is in the pudding. Towns, cities, counties, states, schools, unions, churches, hospitals......whatever they get their hands on they destroy. 

Detroit is an example of how bleak the liberal utopia really is. What happened in Detroit is what they want to do with the whole nation. It takes time. It does not happen over night, but when they consume and exhaust almost of the light an energy from a community then the community becomes a hopeless gray rock floating in a lifeless vacuum of cold lonely space. Like a cancer they slowly consume their host until it is dead. 

Detroit will come back but it will take time. The people living there now will be pushed out. That is the way gentrification goes, you have to push out the bad element if you want the area to rebound. For the area to come back all the poor people need to be pushed out. I see that in my city. The poor people are pushed out and the area is restored.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

City Bound said:


> I think depending on leaders is always a plan to fail.
> 
> *People are better off when they are the leader of their own life, the captain of their own ship. *
> 
> The problem with following leaders is that if the leader goes astray or he or she dies then the mindless followers are left without understanding or direction.


Could you repeat that in another thread?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> In contrast, conservative run states like texas were stable during the recession with a surplus of money.


My state had (has) a republican governor. I don't see a surplus.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> My state had (has) a republican governor. I don't see a surplus.


 Are you guys solvent?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Are you guys solvent?


Well, they told us that we had a "revenue shortfall" when they eliminated the senior tax break. I guess I have to take their word for it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22059150/starr.gif


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Well, if that little hiccup in the budget is all you guys have to worry about then I would say you are doing good. That tax break did some good but using the limited funds for elder protection does more good I think. 

A surplus is great, but just staying solvent is a sign of success. Think of it like a person's finance. If the person has surplus, that is great. If the person has no surplus, but is out of debt, then that is great also. If the person is drowning in debt and their income barely even scratches the interest on that debt, well, they are doing awful.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Detroit was a victim of globalization. It didn't matter what the government did, there still wouldn't have been enough tax revenue to run the city.
> 
> Detroit was especially hard hit because it mostly depended on a single industry. When the auto industry took on serious competition from Honda & Toyota they had nothing to fall back on.


Detroit was a victim of politics and unions (almost the same thing). You remember the 70s, remember the crap cars that were coming out of the America's union ran plants? Remember how the unions fought tooth and nail against automatization? How about the way they fought to keep the better made Japanese cars out of the US? Even with the tariffs to keep them expensive Americans started picking them over American made cars because they were better made.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Welfare was never intended to lift people out of poverty. It was only intended to provide a minimum level for support.


Take off the rose colored glasses and look again. It was intended for just what it is being used for, to create a group of people who are dependent on the government. It it wasn't it would have never been set up so that it was an all or nothing things where as soon as you earned one dollar you lost all of your government "help".


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Well, they told us that we had a "revenue shortfall" when they eliminated the senior tax break. I guess I have to take their word for it.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22059150/starr.gif


Why should the government treat one citizen differently than another? Everyone should be under the same rules. No matter gender, race or age.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Why should the government treat one citizen differently than another? Everyone should be under the same rules. No matter gender, race or age.


Because seniors don't use the school system much. Primary education in Nevada is free everyone with children, but you would be surprised at how few senior citizens take advantage of that.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

watcher said:


> Detroit was a victim of politics and unions (almost the same thing). You remember the 70s, remember the crap cars that were coming out of the America's union ran plants? Remember how the unions fought tooth and nail against automatization? How about the way they fought to keep the better made Japanese cars out of the US? Even with the tariffs to keep them expensive Americans started picking them over American made cars because they were better made.


 Exactly. As a consumer in a free market why spend good money on junk. The japanese made excellent products. I am sad that their recession has caused standards to slip a little in Japanese manufacturing. I am not un-American but in the end I only have so much money and union thugs are not paying my rent so why should I buy their junk products to pay their rent. Why should I go hungry so they can eat steak.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Because seniors don't use the school system much. Primary education in Nevada is free everyone with children, but you would be surprised at how few senior citizens take advantage of that.


Really? They don't benefit from an educated work force? Isn't that the reasoning behind tax supported schools that its in the general welfare of the nation?

What if I have no kids and have been sterilized can I also get a tax break because I won't be using the school system?

What about if I had kids early in life and my kids are out of the public school system by the time I'm 45 is there someway for me to get the same tax break?

Do you think a company would get into a little trouble if it cut the pay to seniors based on the fact they don't need as much money because they are not raising a family?

The government should treat each citizen equally. Age, gender, sexal preference, race nor anything else should get you a break, a bonus nor punishment.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

City Bound said:


> Exactly. As a consumer in a free market why spend good money on junk. The japanese made excellent products. I am sad that their recession has caused standards to slip a little in Japanese manufacturing. I am not un-American but in the end I only have so much money and union thugs are not paying my rent so why should I buy their junk products to pay their rent. Why should I go hungry so they can eat steak.


It seems as though Korea is becoming the new Japan. The Korean made cars are inexpensive and very well made. Even the GMs being built there seem to be good quality.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

The cost of living is hard for many seniors living on a fixed income. Don't you think that they deserve a little break if the community can afford it?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

watcher said:


> It seems as though Korea is becoming the new Japan. The Korean made cars are inexpensive and very well made. Even the GMs being built there seem to be good quality.



They do make some nice things. They make excellent steel cookware. 
My parents have a set of stainless steel bowls that are 50 years old and still in good shape. 

Kia looks like a decent car at a decent price, but I do not know too much about cars

I hope they become the next japan because we need them. I hope japan becomes the japan of the 1980's again. And I really hope that America becomes the America it was back in the 40's and 50's when we made quality things that we could be proud of.

China was not the next japan. China today is like china (or maybe it was Taiwan) in the 70's when the pumped out tons of cheap junk.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> The cost of living is hard for many seniors living on a fixed income. Don't you think that they deserve a little break if the community can afford it?


The point is that many seniors can't work, even if they want to, or even of they have to because they need the money. When health gets in the way they're locked-in. We have a long tradition in this country of taking care of our elderly. That's not altogether a bad thing.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The point is that many seniors can't work, even if they want to, or even of they have to because they need the money. When health gets in the way they're locked-in. We have a long tradition in this country of taking care of our elderly. That's not altogether a bad thing.


 I am all for helping the elderly.
I was talking to an elderly woman and she was telling me that she worked her whole life and her SS check id $700 a month and she has to pay taxes on that. How can someone live on $700 a month it does not even cover the cost of rent.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

City Bound said:


> I am all for helping the elderly.
> I was talking to an elderly woman and she was telling me that she worked her whole life and her SS check id $700 a month and she has to pay taxes on that. How can someone live on $700 a month it does not even cover the cost of rent.


No one has ever been told that social security was to be your only retirement plan.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> No one has ever been told that social security was to be your only retirement plan.


 I know but regardless that is all some people have.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I am all for helping the elderly.
> I was talking to an elderly woman and she was telling me that she worked her whole life and her SS check id $700 a month and she has to pay taxes on that. How can someone live on $700 a month it does not even cover the cost of rent.


Well, that's just not true. Nobody who has a $700/month SS check owes income tax on that money. Unless there is other income much higher it's tax free. Secondly, if someone is deserving if SS and his total income is less than $733/month then he's deserving of the difference as an SSI benefit.

But there are some heartbreaking stories about people who are retired on hopelessly small income. I used to see that when I was an ambulance driver.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I am all for helping the elderly.
> I was talking to an elderly woman and she was telling me that she worked her whole life and her SS check id $700 a month and she has to pay taxes on that. How can someone live on $700 a month it does not even cover the cost of rent.


Well, that's just not true. Nobody who has a $700/month SS check owes income tax on that money. Unless there is other income much higher it's tax free. Secondly, if someone is deserving if SS and his total income is less than $733/month then he's deserving of the difference as an SSI benefit. In other words, the minimum SS income id $733/month, and that would be tax free.

But there are some heartbreaking stories about people who are retired on a hopelessly small income. I used to see that when I was an ambulance driver.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

> Sounds good, but how are you going to get people to retire to and invest in an area riddled with drugs and crime?


This comment edges into an important aspect that I don't think is being looked at in depth in this thread yet. Drugs. Many illicit drugs are *highly* addictive and fuel a drive to acquire cash, necessarily through theft and robberies unless the addict starts out with assets and a good job, which of course can eventually be burned away by the expense and side effects of the substances. First, consider alcohol and tobacco (nicotine). Both are addictive, alcohol evidently only for some based on genetics, with alcohol intoxication leading to highly damaging behaviors such as DUI, domestic abuse, fighting. Long term usage of both substances costs society huge amounts due to health effects plus lost productivity. Generally, they're both decriminalized and taxed with laws only aimed at discouraging teenage usage plus penalizing damaging overt behavior like drunk driving after alcohol consumption. At any rate, the overall "package" that society has worked out is taxation that to some extent flows into education and rehab efforts along with blocking the lying advertising that tobacco companies used in the 40s and 50s and 60s. Knowledge of the health effects plus heavy taxes have reduced US smoking dramatically, so that approach obviously has a decent effect. (Too bad for elsewhere like China, but that's another story.) For alcohol, there are a number of well-organized rehab and support programs like AA, Alanon, and various "12-step" approaches. Pretty much in both cases, those addicted to the substances can be approached by family and friends, talked with, encouraged to look at themselves and steered towards helping themselves. In any case, maintaining an addiction, while not cheap, seems very seldom to require a pattern of thieving, and I submit that's in a large part because most of those folks have NOT been criminalized with jail time desocializing them and stigmatizing them with felonies on record blocking most good job opportunities.

You see what I've concluded and will advocate. The US, due to drug criminalization, has by far the most citizens in jail of any of the world's societies. War on drugs? IT HASN'T WORKED! A reasonable experiment, one that religious and "conservative" elements of society could make a persuasive case for maybe 50 years ago but look at it, the jury is in, the facts are clear. Just like with alcohol, certain genetic makeup, certain personality or psychological profiles, will be prone to abusing substances (come to think, yeah, even food and candy, sugar addiction too!) Most of these patterns will cause personal health damage if continued for long time periods, but except for alcoholic behaviors and aggression fueled by crack cocaine and crank meth, a vast amount of the damage to society (like the near-impossibility of rehabilitating deteriorating neighborhoods with a high percent of criminalized junkies as we're discussing) is due to their need for ongoing amounts of cash to acquire more of what they're hooked on. If you don't deal, you have to rob, and those robberies will gut inner cities especially endlessly. 

IMO, nearly all presently illegal drugs should be decriminalized and made available at modest price, or even free, to addicts, following the examples of alcohol and tobacco. All of this stuff is cheap to produce, meth labs aren't run by rocket scientists, nor are poppy fields. Oh, did I mention, bye-bye inner city gangs like Outlaws, Crips, Mexican cartels? Bye-bye expanding private prison systems with corrupt judges sentencing kids to long terms for drug possession? Violent and damaging *actions and behaviors*, if fueled by crack, crank, or alcohol, of course still have to be criminal and require serious jail time and other punishments. But take the cash expense to any of various flavors of addicts out of the picture and you also mostly remove the stuff like endless home break-ins, convenience store robberies, car thefts, gutting vacant houses of wiring and plumbing (not to mention ripping up heat pumps and ACs for scrap from fully occupied houses and businesses, too!). TAX the drugs some, provide services like AA and let social pressure and peer pressure push the idiots who abuse all this stuff to get help and clean up. There'll always be 20% of the population by definition IQ 85 and below and there'll always be psychopaths and codependent bums and family members trying to leech off and manipulate others... but this ongoing criminalization damage from substance abuse can be stopped. Doing so would take a lot of pressure off these inner city situations and leave infrastructure plus just personal security in much better condition.

Oh, I strongly recommend watching one particular episode of CNN's "Parts Unknown" with Anthony Bourdain, the one labeled as centered on Massachusetts, the last half of it. He does a marvelous exploration of effects of heroin addiction expansion in a NW Mass town.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

True. True. But taking drugs is a personal choice....a bad personal choice. 

Although unstated, I did consider drugs in my op. I consider drugs hopelessness. People turn to drugs when they are hopeless and then the ill effect of drugs damage and create hopelessness in individuals, families, and communities.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

> People turn to drugs when they are hopeless


Well, that's not the full picture now if you watch that "Parts Unknown" episode, for example. Bourdain leads you through how folks now get prescribed painkillers like oxycontin for simple injuries... high school footballers who break a bone, housewives and employed husbands who have a car accident, and so on, and who get hooked by the euphoria effect as well as how awful it feels when they try to taper off, then find heroin is very similar and cheaper once any insurance coverage and prescriptions expire. Look at Rush Limbaugh for example. He wasn't "hopeless" he was in pain from back surgery and got sucked into being part of a distribution ring for oxycontin. Kids aged 15-25 typically develop adventurous, experimental peer group bonding rituals. I sure understand it, my college crowd was busy spelunking, rock climbing, rafting flooded rivers... and passing the hash pipe around and doing an occasional acid hit. Then we graduated and became lawyers, MDs, businessmen, researchers. Not hopelessness at all, maybe sometimes ill-considered but mostly we well understood what was truly addictive and stayed well clear of messing with such... but if someone had gotten arrested and in jail for several years? Different story, and completely unnecessary, and something that would happen more to kids without family resources like we all had.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

City Bound said:


> The cost of living is hard for many seniors living on a fixed income. Don't you think that they deserve a little break if the community can afford it?


If YOU want to give some of your money to a senior or a dozen or thousands of them fine but the government should not be picking one group give a benefit at the cost of others.

This opens the door to all kinds of problems. You can get pols buying votes by offering groups benefits, groups demanding even more benefits, groups who become dependent on the government, out and out discrimination and more.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The point is that many seniors can't work, even if they want to, or even of they have to because they need the money. When health gets in the way they're locked-in. We have a long tradition in this country of taking care of our elderly. That's not altogether a bad thing.


Its not the government's job to "take care" of anyone! Its the government's job to take care of the city, county, state or nation. Providing a benefit for a single group is nothing but discrimination. It doesn't matter how you pick the group or what reasoning you use to pick them.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

City Bound said:


> I am all for helping the elderly.
> I was talking to an elderly woman and she was telling me that she worked her whole life and her SS check id $700 a month and she has to pay taxes on that. How can someone live on $700 a month it does not even cover the cost of rent.


How much of your money did you offer to give her? Is that a one time offer or are you committed to giving her some each month?

Its YOUR job, as an individual, to help other individuals in need if you choose. Its not the government's job to force YOU to help them. Neither by taking money from you to give to them directly nor giving it to them indirectly by charging you more than them for the same service.

Would you be upset if you found out that a green person had to pay 5% more property tax than an orange one? Then why are you not upset that a 30 y.o. has to pay 5% more than a 60 y.o.? Isn't both governmental discrimination?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> People turn to drugs when they are hopeless


Most people who turn to drugs do it out of boredom. Something is missing in their lives, or they're looking for adventure. Hopelessness can follow, depending on the drug and how it agrees with the user, but it doesn't start that way.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Nevada said:


> Most people who turn to drugs do it out of boredom. Something is missing in their lives, or they're looking for adventure. Hopelessness can follow, depending on the drug and how it agrees with the user, but it doesn't start that way.


I am not sure where you found the research that supports "boredom".......

Drug use starts with peer pressure.
Drugs numb pain. Be that from emotional, mental, physical or sexual abuse.
Be that from neglect or hopeless poverty.
Be that from generational curse.....

Drugs are an escape from reality. 
Drugs numb pain.
Drugs make you feel......feel good......feel alive. At first.
Then, once you're hooked, they drag you down, ruin you.

I can imagine someone bored eating a bag of chips, watching mindless tv, etc. Not doing drugs to just pass time......


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

As far as money to seniors?
Give me back, in one lump sum, all the money I paid into SS.
If I am foolish w/ it and blow it, too bad for me.

Give me back what I have paid into the system, and the rest is on me.

I'm sick and tired of working my big fat butt off so lazy able bodied Americans and Illegals can live better, eat better and get better medical attention then ME.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> As far as money to seniors?
> Give me back, in one lump sum, all the money I paid into SS.
> If I am foolish w/ it and blow it, too bad for me.


An annuity isn't a bad thing. If you live to be a ripe old lady you'll get a lot more back than you paid in, perhaps even 2 or 3 times what you paid in. You see, you only pay in enough to support you till your average life expectancy. After that you start using money paid in by people who died younger.

So why did FDR decide to make it an annuity? Because the government takes care of those who can't take care of themselves. He knew that if SS was setup as anything but an annuity that the government would be on the hook for supporting those people if they lost their nestegg. Maybe you would do well with a lump sum distribution, but a lot won't.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I thought SS was set up as a scam? A scam where at the time it was created only about two percent of the population lived long enough to collect. Then the scam back fired when medical advances helped people live longer.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I hear you with the examples of people getting hooked on drugs after an accident. I know people who have or who still are addicted to pain killers because of an injury. 
Other then the people who have on going chronic pain from medical conditions, I feel others who do not have on going medical conditions could kick the drugs if they had hope. Maybe I am wrong. I have had bad times in my life and hope was the only thing that lead me from the darkness. The thing is that the hope has to come from inside yourself and god knows it is hard to find. It is hard to keep hope sometimes.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I thought SS was set up as a scam? A scam where at the time it was created only about two percent of the population lived long enough to collect. Then the scam back fired when medical advances helped people live longer.


The average life expectancy in 1935 was 62, so about half lived that long.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

My financial planner told me at my age to not count on ss, if it was still operational it would be minimal by the time I retired.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The average life expectancy in 1935 was 62, so about half lived that long.


 
My vague recollection of actual numbers was off but the principle was not. It was a scam. They knew they would only have to pay out half the money at best and then they could use the other half elsewhere in the budget.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

no really said:


> My financial planner told me at my age to not count on ss, if it was still operational it would be minimal by the time I retired.


I think we are around the same age. I can see them pushing the age for eligibility up to 70 or 73 by the time we are seniors.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> My financial planner told me at my age to not count on ss, if it was still operational it would be minimal by the time I retired.


Your retirement age might get pushed back a few years, but it will be there and be viable. The baby boomers will die off before too long and the system will no longer be so top heavy.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Your retirement age might get pushed back a few years, but it will be there and be viable. The baby boomers will die off before too long and the system will no longer be so top heavy.


Maybe, maybe not, but I don't figure it in to my retirement at all.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Your retirement age might get pushed back a few years, but it will be there and be viable. The baby boomers will die off before too long and the system will no longer be so top heavy.


What about the lack of feeding at the base of the system. Most young people have no career and will never have a career. Part time minimum wage jobs can not sustain the system.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> What about the lack of feeding at the base of the system. Most young people have no career and will never have a career. Part time minimum age jobs can not sustain the system.


The recession will eventually resolve.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> The recession will eventually resolve.


IMHO this is the new normal. Unless there is a real war. The only thing that would bring about change is a large decrease in population.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> IMHO this is the new normal. Unless there is a real war. The only thing that would bring about change is a large decrease in population.


That's not going to happen. Immigration is all about importing more taxpayers & consumers.

But the recession will resolve in a few years.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That's not going to happen. Immigration is all about importing more taxpayers & consumers.
> 
> But the recession will resolve in a few years.


Wish in one hand something else in the other. The larger percentage of immigrants will in the long run be a negative in taxes, and they will draw much more in support than pay in. They also consume on the low end. Coming from a family of immigrants I will say mine don't pay taxes, they receive.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Education, that's the answer for our young people. I have three young ones.
1, son 26 years old, engineer in materials, hired into a lab doing testing and research. Will be there 2 years in November. Decided that he didn't like the 40 hour thing. Went to his employer and told them he only wanted to work 32 hours. They agreed with him quickly and he has Wednesday's off, they gave him a pay raise when doing this. His wages have gone up over $10 an hour in short time he's been there.
2, daughter 24 years old, starting medical school this year.
3, daughter 23 years old, not sure quite where she wants to be but does recognizes that a professional degree is in her future. This one has bounced around a few fields so far but will find the right one for her. 
We don't need a war to decrease the population. Get your kids educated and life will take care of them. And yes SS will be there, after all Reagan raised my retirement age by 15 months and I still survived. Not happy about it but it is what it is.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

War: We had a baby boom after WW2. War does not seem to slow down population growth. 

Education: We have lots of people on welfare who went to college and cant get a job. We have lots of people who are drowning in student debt. The increase of educated skilled workers did not lead to prosperity, it led to a glut in the balance of supply and demand for middleclass employment. The glut has lead to lower wages for educated and skilled workers. Many educated young people can not even get a minimum wage job because they are considered too qualified for the job. I know someone that was turned down by pet co and other low wage retail jobs because she had a masters degree from an Ivy league University. 

A glut in skilled educate workers can create an easily disposable work force. Years ago when few people went to college companies had to kiss their employee's bums to keep them at the job because the labor pool was so thin for educated workers. So out goes health care and other benefits that were used a incentives to stay. Now you can hire three educated people for the price of one, work them part time, and give them no benefits.

Immigration: where are we going to put them? Doe we really need more urban sprawl that is so hard to maintain and manage. How are we going to feed them? Farmland is shrinking and will those shrinking farms feed a nation that has doubled in size.What jobs are their here for them? How can they earn money to be consumers if there are no jobs.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

no really said:


> IMHO this is the new normal. .


 I agree............


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Immigration: where are we going to put them? Doe we really need more urban sprawl that is so hard to maintain and manage. How are we going to feed them? Farmland is shrinking and will those shrinking farms feed a nation that has doubled in size.What jobs are their here for them? How can they earn money to be consumers if there are no jobs.


The jobs will come back when the recession resolves. This isn't a permanent condition. Workers will be back in high demand before too long. Read this to see what I mean.

_Prof Goodhart says the coming era of labour scarcity will shift the balance of power from employers to workers, pushing up wages._
http://business.financialpost.com/i...-we-know-it-is-about-to-be-turned-on-its-head

New immigrants will allow the US to increase it's productive capacity, leading to true prosperity. The baby boom labor glut was a short term anomaly.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Pick a degree in the stem fields. A degree in art may feel good and will be personally sastisfying. But it's hard to put food on the table. How many positions truly warrant art, history, or English majors. They need to look at the market and focus on where the world is heading. People in the stem fields are employed and have the advantage of openings in the fields. Not so much for the others. Do a quick survey of the unemployed degree owners and you will find they avoided the stem fields because they were hard. And they are.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The jobs will come back when the recession resolves. This isn't a permanent condition. Workers will be back in high demand before too long. Read this to see what I mean.
> 
> _Prof Goodhart says the coming era of labour scarcity will shift the balance of power from employers to workers, pushing up wages._
> http://business.financialpost.com/i...-we-know-it-is-about-to-be-turned-on-its-head
> ...


They seem like short term solutions to me.

Many talking heads and suits are saying that we are heading into a double dip global recession. Historically we came out of one recession only to go right back into a recession a decade or so later. Sadly, every little boom that springs up after a recession only seems to shovel us deeper into debt and recession when the little bubble bursts. Prosperity on borrowed money is not prosperity. 

The baby boomers had a good life. I was talking about the labor glut of 20 and 30-somethings.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Many talking heads and suits are saying that we are heading into a double dip global recession.


Yes. Economic indicators say that we're headed back into recession.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Robotron said:


> Pick a degree in the stem fields. A degree in art may feel good and will be personally sastisfying. But it's hard to put food on the table. How many positions truly warrant art, history, or English majors. They need to look at the market and focus on where the world is heading. People in the stem fields are employed and have the advantage of openings in the fields. Not so much for the others. Do a quick survey of the unemployed degree owners and you will find they avoided the stem fields because they were hard. And they are.


I like what you are saying. Sounds like you have good old fashioned middle class sensibility. 

I would not count on anything being permanent in todays job market. 
A friend of mine worked as a radiologist for years and made great money. Ten years later there was a glut in that field and his wages were gradually slashed to almost minimum wage. He makes more money walking dogs then he could in the field he trained for.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> A friend of mine worked as a radiologist for years and made great money. Ten years later there was a glut in that field and his wages were gradually slashed to almost minimum wage. He makes more money walking dogs then he could in the field he trained for.


A medical doctor making almost minimum wage? I'll have to call you on that one. Doesn't sound likely.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> A medical doctor making almost minimum wage? I'll have to call you on that one. Doesn't sound likely.


I got the term confused.

He is an x-ray technician not a doctor. He just takes the x-rays.
When he first started he was making $50 an hour.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I got the term confused.
> 
> He is an x-ray technician not a doctor. He just takes the x-rays.
> When he first started he was making $50 an hour.


Sounds like a local problem. If it persists tell him to move to Las Vegas. He'll find good work here.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> A medical doctor making almost minimum wage? I'll have to call you on that one. Doesn't sound likely.


The internet has expanded competition. Years ago I read about radiologists in Australia reviewing X-rays for hospitals in this country.

I tell kids today don't get into a career making something that can be made cheaper overseas and shipped here in a container or done over the internet. Either one is a dead end sooner or later.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Darren said:


> The internet has expanded competition. Years ago I read about radiologists in Australia reviewing X-rays for hospitals in this country.
> 
> I tell kids today don't get into a career making something that can be made cheaper overseas and shipped here in a container or done over the internet. Either one is a dead end sooner or later.


I tell the same thing to my niece. I tell her to diversify her skills so she has a safety net. If she does not have a cozy life financially at least she can survive. 

She loves animals but she may not be smart enough to be a vet or vet assistant. I suggested she learn dog grooming and that way if she works in a grocery store during the week then she can do dog grooming in peoples homes on the weekend and work for herself also. 

She was impressed with the scraping I was doing. I started to teach her to scrap. I told her that someday knowing how to scrap may be what helps you get by in rough time. She listened and tried to learn but all the different metals and where they might be confused her. We will revisit the topic as she gets older.

I was teaching my nieces to paint houses and garden. I am not teaching them because "the can't count on a man to provide for them" I am teaching them because they need to survive. 

pet grooming, hair dressing, barber skills, washing peoples clothes from your home, doing hems, mechanic skills these are good things to fall back on in rough times


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The average life expectancy in 1935 was 62, so about half lived that long.


You left out a few things. First off it is true that the average life expectancy was 62. But back then most women did not work therefore would not pay nor receive SS pay. The average life expectancy of a man was 60. 

Seeing as how the retirement age was set at 65 it was known that more 50% of those paying in would never get a dime and the few who did would never get back as much as they paid in. IOW, it was set up as a money making, vote buying scheme. But as usual the pols were shortsighted because they failed to sneak in a provision which would always keep the retirement age at least 5 years more than the average life span of the average worker. If they had included that the government would still be making money on it.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The jobs will come back when the recession resolves. This isn't a permanent condition. Workers will be back in high demand before too long. Read this to see what I mean.
> 
> _Prof Goodhart says the coming era of labour scarcity will shift the balance of power from employers to workers, pushing up wages._
> http://business.financialpost.com/i...-we-know-it-is-about-to-be-turned-on-its-head
> ...


I don't see it. Workers are too expensive. Where ever possible, and a lot we don't see as possible now, workers will be replaced by automation. Low skill and a lot of high skill jobs as well. A lot of the high paying blue collar jobs are already going to machines. One semi-skilled worker can ride herd on a dozen or so robotic welders. The same thing applies to most machine jobs.

We have already seen how cashiers can be replaced by self-checking. I'm willing to bet a lot of the order taking at restaurants (fast food and some sit down places) will be done with either self serve stations or via smart phone app. I can see pharmacy techs being replaced as well. Machines are faster and make fewer mistakes.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> But back then most women did not work therefore would not pay nor receive SS pay.


They didn't pay in, but they received Social Security benefits.

Social Security views the contribution a woman makes as a stay-at-home mom to be a valuable asset to society. Since it's assumed that most stay-at-home moms gave up a career to do it, women are deserving of the Social Security & Medicare benefits earned by their husbands.

There is a limitation on that, which is that they must be married for at least 10 years to be eligible for benefits. Widows who were married more than once for at least 10 years in each marriage will receive the benefit of the past husband who accrued the largest Social Security benefit.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> You left out a few things. First off it is true that the average life expectancy was 62. But back then most women did not work therefore would not pay nor receive SS pay. The average life expectancy of a man was 60.
> 
> Seeing as how the retirement age was set at 65 it was known that more 50% of those paying in would never get a dime and the few who did would never get back as much as they paid in. IOW, it was set up as a money making, vote buying scheme. But as usual the pols were shortsighted because they failed to sneak in a provision which would always keep the retirement age at least 5 years more than the average life span of the average worker. If they had included that the government would still be making money on it.


What Social Security did was to get us to contribute more to our retirement. Before Social Security many seniors received government support, which came from the general tax fund. Now retirement support comes from a self-supporting fund that is separate from the general tax fund.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Many talking heads and suits are saying that we are heading into a double dip global recession.


This country is at a financial crossroads right now. I don't think that oil prices and China's economy play as big of a part in the stock market downtrend as most financial pundits seem to think. I believe that the current bear market was caused by the Fed raising interest rates too soon. That left the stock market vulnerable.

The crossroads we are at right now is what the Fed will do about the tanking stock market. What the Fed should probably do is lower interest rates back down, but I don't think they'll do that. Lowering interest rates now would make it look like they made a mistake in raising interest rates. The Fed's ego can't stand that.

But the Fed has to do something or we may have another financial crisis before the November election. If that happens then the election will almost certainly be handed to republicans, similar to the way the 2008 election was handed to democrats after the mortgage crisis. The powers that be want another democratic administration, so you can expect the Fed to do everything it can to delay a financial crisis until after November.

The Fed may do QE4. That will settle investors' nerves, but printing money for QE could beat-up the dollar. There are also ways that the Fed can do QE creatively under the table. I suspect that they're thinking how how they might do that right now. Either that or the Fed has to fabricate an excuse for why they need to lower interest rates or do QE4, like blaming it on oil, China, or maybe even the blizzard last weekend.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

For every piece of automation out there somebody has to maintain it. Somebody had to engineer it and somebody has to build it. Granted operators were plentiful in the past but were expensive. Automation has allowed our productivity rate to skyrocket. Each piece produced is of higher quality and less scrap. I build and service very specialized machines. It has allowed me to have a six figure income and travel the world. When I started doing this 24 years ago and go look at some of the old machines that are still out there I see nothing but simplicity. The new ones are much more complex and yes the do more with less people. Of course you pay for that. Simple machine in my world today starts at $500,000, higher end $5,000,000. And most places require rio of 24 months. It's a tough world to make the numbers work but automation rarely calls in sick or takes unemployment bennies when things slow down. Just power off. Once again, people need to get a usable education and continue with life long learning.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

> The average life expectancy in 1935 was 62, so about half lived that long.


Another quirk of demographics might have still been in play for that calculation, also. The "W" shaped fatality distribution of the 1918 flu pandemic reflected a disproportionate impact on otherwise robust young adults as well as young kids and the elderly. (One of the aspects of the infection was triggering a "cytokine storm" in young adults such that their immune systems vastly over-reacted resulting in the often-reported rapid deaths with bleeding from many organs.) So many of that age group were lost that the US life expectancy was dropped by TEN years. I haven't worked it out, but I'd think it possible even 15 years later there was a bit of a lag still working through the numbers such that several more years were clearly likely to get added back into those calculations in the near future, independent of ongoing medical advances adding still more.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

City Bound said:


> I looked up some pictures of Flint Michigan because of the other thread. Abandoned houses, burned out cars, falling down buildings.
> 
> Other then the crime I do not see the problem. There is so much potential there for anyone who would knuckle down and do things themselves. That place is a great opportunity for micro homesteading. Even the falling down buildings can be stripped down for raw material to build sheds and small barns.
> 
> ...


A lot of the materials from those old homes cannot be used, due to the lead based paint on most wood.

The past hundred years of Flint, Pontiac and Detroit is an interesting, sometimes complex, history.

The industrial jobs brought many people from the south, black and white. These towns grew. But society changed in the early 1960s. Crime skyrocketed. Business owners moved away, to the safety of the suburbs. Many took their businesses too. 

Detroit is tearing down and hauling away, 400 homes a week. Will take 35 years just to clean up what is condemned now. 

There are a few urban gardening locations. Not quite commercial sizes, yet.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://detroitfuturecity.com/initiatives/vacant-land-treatment-program/

http://detroit.jalopnik.com/soon-you-can-buy-vacant-lots-in-detroit-for-100-each-1578952126

http://www.bootstrap-analysis.com/2006/06/urban_prairie.html


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks for the links haypoint

After reading those links I think one way to deal with crime in these areas is to make the offenders do community service to their own community. They can clean up trash, cut back weeds, and help in the demo of the abandoned homes.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Work is for chumps.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.aroundme.com/locations/2...e-24433-15102013&utm_medium=referral&pid=null


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Work is for chumps.


 When it is ether go to jail or do community service most will do community service.


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