# Student assignment- copy the Muslem statement of faith



## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Students were asked to copy the Muslem statement of faith to practice calligraphy in Virginia.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015...g-there-is-no-god-but-allah.html?intcmp=hpbt4


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Not newsworthy. At all.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Well, it does look like calligraphy.











Maybe this is this just another one of those stories, where our kids are just too stupid, to figure things out, on their own. 

They need us to do their thinking for them.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Of course, the liberals have infiltrated the schools and are using their position to warp young minds.
Welcome to Obamanation, where you can't even mention the Bible, but muslim propaganda is shoved on our children.
Disgusting, but I'm sure the "progressive" hate mongers will be along to tell us it's no big deal.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

plowjockey said:


> Well, it does look like calligraphy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like liberal propaganda to me.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

plowjockey said:


> Well, it does look like calligraphy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With handwriting like mine, its a real good thing I aint Muslim.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We must be more tolerant.

Mustn't we?

We should tolerate the religion used as a basis for attacks against us.

Mustn't we?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

This is one of those all around face palmers. Yes Arabic is a lovely language to practice calligraphy with. No they should not have used the Shahada to practice it. Just like they shouldn't use the Shema to have kids practice writing Hebrew. It's offensive all around. If you are not a member of the religion you don't want to find out you just made a declaration of faith to their God. If you are a member you don't want people saying it in ignorance. 

As for trying on the Hijab I think it is a lovely idea. I have seen videos of girls trying it and wearing them in solidarity with Muslim women here in America who are being attacked for wearing it. So long as it is totally up to the students to try it or not I have no problem with it. It's no different than eating food from another country or learning about another culture in other ways. We did it when I was in school.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

And by the way Todd Starnes is part of the outrage machine.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

sorry if my kids came home with this I would pull them from school JMO. This is bad timing abd I would have the teach and the whoever that said do it fired


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Not sure if this really happened but if it did it violates the separation of church and state.

All religious education, regardless of the religion, should be banned from public schools and this includes the reference to god in the pledge of allegiance.
No menorahs. No Christmas parties. No Islamic calligraphy. Nothing related to any religion at all. 

Before anyone bothers to attack me, let it be known that I believe in god and I am religious to some degree. The separation if church and the state is crucial to both a clean minded government and to the freedoms of peoples of all walks of faith.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Our current crop of Muslim apologists and closet Islamics see no problem with this. Carry on.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> Our current crop of Muslim apologists and closet Islamics see no problem with this. Carry on.


Why would it be a problem?





> By Todd Starnes Published December 15, 2015 FoxNews.com
> 
> A Virginia school district is defending a classroom assignment that required students to practice calligraphy by writing the Muslim statement of faith, âThere is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.â
> 
> ...


They are copying some squiggly lines without knowing what it says.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why would it be a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They did know it was the Islamic statement of faith. Whether it was translated or not, they knew it was a Muslim religious statement.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> They did know it was the Islamic statement of faith. Whether it was translated or not, *they knew* it was a Muslim religious statement.


You know that too.
Has it changed your beliefs in any way?

It's an exercise to teach *calligraphy*, not religion.
If it were Japanese or Chinese script would you think they are trying to change them at all?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know that too.
> Has it changed your beliefs in any way?
> 
> *It's an exercise to teach calligraphy, not religion.*
> If it were Japanese or Chinese script would you think they are trying to change them at all?


You don't think kids are curious enough to ask what it says in English??

Sometimes we just have to dig below the surface....


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

That teacher should be fired.
She would be if she brought a Bible to school
The schools are being twisted by the left, brainwashing kids and it needs to be stopped


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)




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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

City Bound said:


> Not sure if this really happened but if it did it violates the separation of church and state.
> 
> All religious education, regardless of the religion, should be banned from public schools and this includes the reference to god in the pledge of allegiance.
> No menorahs. No Christmas parties. No Islamic calligraphy. Nothing related to any religion at all.
> ...


Well, there is no "separation of church & state" but I'd like to see what would happen if they practiced caligraphy on bible verses ya know, doing something like the monks did when they copied the bible...


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

"There is no god but God, Muhammad is his messenger"
Or more correctly.... "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his messenger" Is not only a statement of Muslim faith, but it is a flat rejection of faith in Christ, if one is a Christian.

Yeah, buddy, if this was assigned to my kid I would be irate indeed.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

Maybe government schools should have children practice calligraphy by copying, let's say, the preamble to the Declaration of Independence. Good place to start.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know that too.
> Has it changed your beliefs in any way?
> 
> _*It's an exercise to teach calligraphy, not religion.*_
> If it were Japanese or Chinese script would you think they are trying to change them at all?


While I can "see" how using Arabic to practice calligraphy would be useful, maybe the teacher should have had them practice writing the alphabet or some innocuous statement/s like "where is the nearest market" rather than a statement of faith. I thought anything religious is a big no-no in public schools...did something change?

Besides, why use a foreign language at all? Surely there are MANY examples of calligraphy in English, are there not?


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know that too.
> Has it changed your beliefs in any way?
> 
> It's an exercise to teach *calligraphy*, not religion.
> If it were Japanese or Chinese script would you think they are trying to change them at all?


Consistency. A coach praying on a football field doesn't change my beliefs either but it sure had many on the left in a jerk.

Remember a coach who was suspended because he walked away from his students to pray following each game. Some students voluntarily followed. Many argued he was using undue influence over the students to push his religion on these impressionable young ones.

How then can a teacher who has their students trapped in a classroom given a pass for requiring these impressionable young ones to write a declaration of belief that Allah is the one God and Mohammed is his messenger?

Either we allow religion in the schools or we don't!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Wolf mom said:


> You don't think kids are curious enough to ask what it says in English??
> 
> *Sometimes we just have to dig* below the surface....


Maybe, maybe not.

It didn't mention the ages of the students, and the parents are the ones who said they weren't told the meaning.

What difference does it make if they know what it says?
Are you that afraid of letting them learn something?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Either we allow *religion* in the schools or we don't!


You see "religion" 
I see some strange symbols 

They aren't trying to convert them.
They are trying to teach them some artistic skills.

It doesn't compare to praying at football games at all. 

If the parents didn't overreact so much the kids would do the assignments and just move on.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Interesting that calligraphy is being taught.
I have worked in the school system for over 25 years and most students no longer can write in cursive.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Written symbols or words have meanings. These have a very specific meaning. And the assignment stated that what they were writing was in fact the Islamic statement of Faith. So yes it is religious whether you see it or not is irrelevant to the facts.


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## Mrs. Thankful (Dec 4, 2013)

It says right on the assignment that it s the Islamic statement of faith.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Written symbols or words have meanings. These have a very specific meaning. And the assignment stated that what they were writing was in fact the Islamic statement of Faith. So yes it is religious whether you see it or not is irrelevant to the facts.


The "facts" are they are using it as an example of calligraphy, and what it "means" has no relevance. whether you see that or not.

If the parents didn't overreact, the kids would not have given it a second thought beyond trying to copy the designs


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

City Bound said:


> Not sure if this really happened but if it did it violates the separation of church and state.
> 
> All religious education, regardless of the religion, should be banned from public schools and this includes the reference to god in the pledge of allegiance.
> No menorahs. No Christmas parties. No Islamic calligraphy. Nothing related to any religion at all.


I see nothing wrong with educating children on the basic principals of different faiths in a broad overview. I remember in World Geography class in 9th grade talking about which religions had the most followers, identifying where in the world different faiths were followed, etc. It was very brief, but we learned that Islam was Allah and Mohammad, Christianity was God and Christ, etc. My school had an elective class on World Religions that went more in depth into the main religions practiced around our globe from an academic perspective. For that matter, I'm okay with the Bible being taught as an elective class in public schools as long as it is being taught as a book of literature and not a preaching Sunday School class.

The line that must be held is the line between saying "Christians believe XYZ, Muslims believe ABC" and the line saying "Only Christians are right, all other religions are myths" and "If you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you're going to Hell." 

My kids went to school at first in a very Christian community. It was a public school and I thought nothing of it, until the day my 5-year old came home crying and asking me why I was a liar. Turned out she had mentioned while coloring pictures of the Nativity in class that our family doesn't celebrate Christmas, and the teacher assistant took it upon herself to (in front of the class) inform my DD that whoever told her that Jesus Christ was not her Lord & Savior was a liar and that our entire family would burn in Hell unless we accepted Jesus into our hearts and souls. By the time I was done with the principal, the school was doing their lessons on "Holidays celebrated in December" without the preaching.

I was perfectly okay with my non-Christian child being taught about Christmas, just as I'm okay with my non-Jewish child being taught about Hanukkah and my non-Muslim child being taught about Islam. Unless it crosses that line :nono:

There are plenty of statements in Arabic that these kids could have been asked to copy to appreciate the complexity of the language and the difficulty of calligraphy....but asking them to copy the Muslim statement of faith (which basically pledges yourself to Allah) is crossing that line IMO.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> It says right on the assignment that it s the Islamic statement of faith.


It also mentions multiple times it's a good example of calligraphy.

Copying the Declaration of Independence wouldn't have much relevance in a *geography* class studying the Middle East


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The "facts" are they are using it as an example of calligraphy, and what it "means" has no relevance. whether you see that or not.
> 
> If the parents didn't overreact, the kids would not have given it a second thought beyond trying to copy the designs


So if an art teacher instructs the class to draw swastikas to teach the proper way to draw lines and angles, you don't think the meaning of the symbol is important?


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## Mrs. Thankful (Dec 4, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It also mentions multiple times it's a good example of calligraphy.
> 
> Copying the Declaration of Independence wouldn't have much relevance in a *geography* class studying the Middle East


I was responding to the post that said that they didn't know what they were writing. 

Although they didn't know the actual words they were writing because it was written in Arabic without translation; they did know it was an Islamic statement of faith.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You see "religion"
> I see some strange symbols
> 
> They aren't trying to convert them.
> ...



maybe they are trying to convert them. who knows. 

it does compare to praying at a football game because it is praying. the kids were writing a prayer whether they knew it or not. 

if the parents or student did not object then religion or political ideology would be forced on them.

if you open the door a crack a snake can still slither in


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

nchobbyfarm said:


> So if an art teacher instructs the class to draw swastikas to teach the proper way to draw lines and angles, you don't think the meaning of the symbol is important?


 right on. 

or how it is an ancient symbol with positive meaning to many cultures around the world.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

So if they wrote it three times did they just convert?


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

if the kids cant say the pledge of alligence to the flag with out removing one nation under god in schools why should they be allowed to learn anything from another religion


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

nchobbyfarm said:


> So if an art teacher instructs the class to draw swastikas to teach the proper way to draw lines and angles, you don't think the meaning of the symbol is important?


You do understand the swastika as a pure symbol has a long history and vastly different meanings?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I am guessing none of you ever took a calligraphy class...... 

It's pretty simple really. Using Arabic or any other language is not an issue. Having someone write a statement of faith from another religion that may be in conflict with theirs is an absolute no no and should have never been done. It really doesn't matter if you think the words are meaningless because some people believe writing those words have great meaning and their beliefs and feelings should be respected.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> You do understand the swastika as a pure symbol has a long history and vastly different meanings?


Yes I do. Do you disagree that there would be an outcry if a teacher required a class to draw swastikas.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

same thing if they told them to pick a Bible verse or pray before a football game all hell breaks out from the atheists 

I think all the atheists should send me all the cash they have because I am sure they dont want anything around that says In God We Trust


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> This is one of those all around face palmers. Yes Arabic is a lovely language to practice calligraphy with. No they should not have used the Shahada to practice it. Just like they shouldn't use the Shema to have kids practice writing Hebrew. It's offensive all around. If you are not a member of the religion you don't want to find out you just made a declaration of faith to their God. If you are a member you don't want people saying it in ignorance.
> 
> As for trying on the Hijab I think it is a lovely idea. I have seen videos of girls trying it and wearing them in solidarity with Muslim women here in America who are being attacked for wearing it. So long as it is totally up to the students to try it or not I have no problem with it. It's no different than eating food from another country or learning about another culture in other ways. We did it when I was in school.


First paragraph, I'm with you all the way. 2nd one, not so much. I don't know how well the Muslim girls would appreciate the infidels "playing dress up" with something that is so important to them. They very well might find it offensive, just like some Indians are offended by non-Indian people wearing things from their culture. Especially if the girl is wearing the hijab along with other clothing that would be considered too revealing. And they don't need "solidarity" anyway. Don't you have any Amish or Mennonites down there? Or nuns even? I see women with various hair coverings on a regular basis. No big deal.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> So if an art teacher instructs the class to draw swastikas to teach the proper way to draw lines and angles, you don't think the meaning of the symbol is important?


It was a Native American symbol before the Nazi's stole it.

But this isn't an "art" class, and the "art" in the *geography* class relates to the culture of the region they are studying.

If it were a History class studying Germany in the 30's and 40's I would see no problem with them learning about swastikas.

They aren't trying to indoctrinate them, contrary to popular hysterical belief


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

City Bound said:


> maybe they are trying to convert them. who knows.
> 
> it does compare to praying at a football game because it is praying. the kids were writing a prayer *whether they knew it or not*.
> 
> ...


Yeah, they are "trying to convert them" by having them *copy some symbols* without telling them the actual meaning of the words.

That makes sense


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

[No message]


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It was a Native American symbol before the Nazi's stole it.
> 
> But this isn't an "art" class, and the "art" in the *geography* class relates to the culture of the region they are studying.
> 
> ...


That sure is a lot of words to say yes!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> I am guessing none of you ever took a calligraphy class......
> 
> It's pretty simple really. Using Arabic or any other language is not an issue. Having someone write a statement of faith from another religion that may be in conflict with theirs is an absolute no no and should have never been done. It really doesn't matter if you think the words are meaningless because some people believe writing those words have great meaning and their beliefs and feelings should be respected.


This. You nailed it.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yeah, they are "trying to convert them" by having them *copy some symbols* without telling them the actual meaning of the words.
> 
> That makes sense


Did you miss post 28?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Woolieface said:


> "There is no god but God, Muhammad is his messenger"
> Or more correctly.... "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his messenger" Is not only a statement of Muslim faith, but *it is a flat rejection of faith in Christ*, if one is a Christian.
> 
> Yeah, buddy, if this was assigned to my kid I would be irate indeed.


So, you just typed it twice of your own free will.

Are you now Muslim, or is what you said really just hype and melodrama?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> Did you miss post 28?


No I didn't miss it.

Nowhere did it say they translated the symbols, and the story in the OP stated that also.

Did you miss the parts that mentioned it was about "calligraphy?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> That sure is a lot of words to say yes!


Knowing what the swastika represented at that time in history doesn't equate to training them to be Nazi's.

Copying some foreign symbols *in the given context* isn't "about" religion at all.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No I didn't miss it.
> 
> Nowhere did it say they translated the symbols, and the story in the OP stated that also.
> 
> Did you miss the parts that mentioned it was about "calligraphy?


The image in post 28 states it is the Islam statement of faith. I'm assuming kids old enough to learn calligraphy can read English, too. Calligraphy is a cool skill to learn. They should teach it with generic phrases and not a testament of faith.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> *The image in post 28 states it is the Islam statement of faith.* I'm assuming kids old enough to learn calligraphy can read English, too. Calligraphy is a cool skill to learn. They should teach it with generic phrases and not a testament of faith.


Now you're just repeating what has already been stated.
That isn't a "translation"

Look at the drawings, and you'll see it's not really "teaching calligraphy" since it's not done with a #2 pencil

It's still in the end a *geography* assignment that took far less time to do than it's taking some to agonize over it.

It's one more example of people looking for a reason to act indignant


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## Mrs. Thankful (Dec 4, 2013)

The image I posted was from the OP's article link.

These quotes below are from the article as well. But the first statement says it's to understand the artistic complexity while the second statement specifically says that it's a part of "content instruction on world monotheistic religions".



> âThey were simply asked to attempt to artistically render written Arabic in order to *understand its artistic complexity*,â they stated.





> The district said the assignment was consistent with the Virginia Department of Education Standards of Learning and the requirements for *content instruction on world monotheistic religions.*


Reading the picture of the assignment, it's really not about learning calligraphy. It's about learning about Islam.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Now you're just repeating what has already been stated.
> That isn't a "translation"
> 
> Look at the drawings, and you'll see it's not really "teaching calligraphy" since it's not done with a #2 pencil
> ...


I'm not indignant, I'm not hysterical or any of the other things you claim. I think this assignment was an epic fail. There was no outrage or hysteria in stating that opinion. 

You can hold a different opinion without trying to browbeat everyone else into agreeing with you. You don't seem to be aware of that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I feel that the writings of any faith are significant to those who believe and to use them for an art assignment is disrespectful and I'd feel just as strongly if a class was asked to use passages from the bible to practice cursive writing.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I'm not indignant, I'm not hysterical or any of the other things you claim. I think this assignment was an epic fail. There was no outrage or hysteria in stating that opinion.
> 
> You can hold a different opinion without trying to browbeat everyone else into agreeing with you. You don't seem to be aware of that.


I never named names, but I'm sure you can see examples of what I said.
I don't care if anyone "agrees" but their arguments don't change what I see either

There was enough "outrage and hysteria" to get a simple school assignment plastered all over the internet


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No I didn't miss it.
> 
> Nowhere did it say they translated the symbols, and the story in the OP stated that also.
> 
> Did you miss the parts that mentioned it was about "calligraphy?



context and content is important. 

So you are saying that if children where taking a life drawing class and were handed a photograph of a man and woman engaged in intercourse and then they were instructed to draw what they saw that the content of the image, as well as the context (school age children), would be ok because the assignment was to draw people and not to draw sexual content?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

City Bound said:


> *context and content is important*.
> 
> So you are saying that *if* children where taking a life drawing class and were handed a photograph of a man and woman engaged in intercourse and then they were instructed to draw what they saw that the content of the image, as well as the context (school age children), would be ok because the assignment was to draw people and not to draw sexual content?


Let's not play the silly fantasy scenario "what if" games.

This was a *geography* class talking about a region of the world where Islam is the prominent religion, and that is the main point of the lesson.

It's not "teaching religion" nor trying to "convert" anyone.

It's about learning the world isn't the same everywhere

If they study Central America next, and draw some Aztec symbols, will there be such an uproar? 

(Of course there won't, because it would be silly)


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Yes I do. Do you disagree that there would be an outcry if a teacher required a class to draw swastikas.


I think it would depend on what the class was about. But yes a few parents would probably have a knee jerk fit of outrage sadly.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> First paragraph, I'm with you all the way. 2nd one, not so much. I don't know how well the Muslim girls would appreciate the infidels "playing dress up" with something that is so important to them. They very well might find it offensive, just like some Indians are offended by non-Indian people wearing things from their culture. Especially if the girl is wearing the hijab along with other clothing that would be considered too revealing. And they don't need "solidarity" anyway. Don't you have any Amish or Mennonites down there? Or nuns even? I see women with various hair coverings on a regular basis. No big deal.


http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20151216/news/151219092/



> The one-minute video shows members of the school's Muslim Student Association, or MSA, helping non-Muslim girls put on hijabs for a "Walk a Mile in Her Hijab" event.
> The voluntary activity, hosted by the 10-member student group, six of whom are Muslim, was aimed at education and outreach about the Muslim faith.
> "(It will) denounce negative stereotypes and show that we are just caring, respectful, peaceful students, and your peers," student organizer Yasmeen Abdallah said on the video.


As for solidarity are you implying women who wear the hijab are not being attacked? 

http://www.insideedition.com/headli...olmates-who-called-her-isis-tore-at-her-hijab

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/11/45931...-hijabs-are-fearful-of-backlash-after-attacks

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local/2015/12/11/two-muslim-women-attacked-in-tampa/77137026/

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/12/12/us-muslim-women-debate-safety-of-hijab-amid-backlash/

http://abcnews4.com/news/nation-wor...o-wear-hijab-to-support-muslim-american-women


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20151216/news/151219092/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not around here they are not. There are often black and Arab-looking ladies wearing them at some places where I shop, just another customer. I don't notice anyone giving them the stankeye, avoiding them, behaving any differently around them. It is not unusual to see the "bonnets" of the Amish and Mennonites being worn either.

If these students actually want the other girls to play dressup with a hijab, fine. But someplace else, Muslim girls might be insulted or think they were being mocked.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> Not around here they are not. There are often black and Arab-looking ladies wearing them at some places where I shop, just another customer. I don't notice anyone giving them the stankeye, avoiding them, behaving any differently around them. It is not unusual to see the "bonnets" of the Amish and Mennonites being worn either.
> 
> If these students actually want the other girls to play dressup with a hijab, fine. But someplace else, Muslim girls might be insulted or think they were being mocked.


Definetly. Same here except no Amish nea


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> It didn't mention the ages of the students, and the parents are the ones who said they weren't told the meaning.
> 
> ...


Boy, is that a stretch from what I posted and what I meant.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*Furor over Arabic assignment leads Virginia school district to close Friday*


> *A Virginia school system has decided to close schools Friday after a high school geography assignment on world religions led to allegations of Islamic indoctrination and a slew of angry emails and phone calls.*
> 
> Augusta County School District officials said that there had been no specific threat of harm to students. But in a statement posted on the school districtâs website, officials said they were concerned about the âtone and content of these communications.â
> 
> ...


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fu...istrict-to-close-friday/ar-BBnGx4T?li=BBnbfcL


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Wolf mom said:


> Boy, is that a stretch from what I posted and what I meant.


Then what were you digging for?
Often the most simple answer is the correct answer



> Sometimes we just have to dig below the surface....


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know that too.
> Has it changed your beliefs in any way?
> 
> It's an exercise to teach *calligraphy*, not religion.
> If it were Japanese or Chinese script would you think they are trying to change them at all?


If it were in Chinese or Japanese, I would be find the educational value and supposed innocence of this assignment to be more believable. If it were in Roman, Greek or even Celtic from the Middle Ages, I would still be inclined to believe that.
But since Arabic calligraphy is almost exclusive to Islamic writings and only flourished with the Ottoman Empire, that makes it the least valuable historically, and the subject matter rather exclusive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligraphy
Therefore either the teacher was blindly ignorant or exactly the opposite.
:shrug:



Bearfootfarm said:


> Then what were you digging for?
> Often the most simple answer is the correct answer


You got that right.



arabian knight said:


> *Furor over Arabic assignment leads Virginia school district to close Friday*
> 
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fu...istrict-to-close-friday/ar-BBnGx4T?li=BBnbfcL


Apparently more than a few parents saw this the same way and voiced their strong objections.
If this was an attempt to encourage some enlightenment, it backfired. Unless there is a good reason to hide it, being covert will not be looked at favorably.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If it were in Chinese or Japanese, I would be find the educational value and supposed innocence of this assignment to be more believable. If it were in Roman, Greek or even Celtic from the Middle Ages, I would still be inclined to believe that.
> But since Arabic calligraphy is almost exclusive to Islamic writings and only flourished with the Ottoman Empire, that makes it the least valuable historically, and the subject matter rather exclusive.


So it's only because it's Muslim as suspected.

The "subject matter" was *geography*, so yes it will be "rather exclusive".

The huge uproar doesn't prove right or wrong any more than a BLM riot does. It just shows people are easily incited


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So it's only because it's Muslim as suspected.


Correct.
I refer you to your paraphrased post of Occam's razor.


Bearfootfarm said:


> Often the most simple answer is the correct answer





Bearfootfarm said:


> The "subject matter" was *geography*, so yes it will be "rather exclusive".
> 
> The huge uproar doesn't prove right or wrong any more than a BLM riot does. It just shows people are easily incited


Of course it's something you can't "prove".
That's what a subjective opinion is, an unproven belief, but it's based on circumstances.
Out of all the various ways to teach Arab geography, the teacher just happened to pick this lesson.
Maybe it was to include the more influential country of Persia to the east, which has a much longer history of calligraphy and is in Asia where it originated, I don't know. But if this were just an unfortunate accident of flawed teaching, the timing couldn't have been worse if they tried.


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

CBN : Virginia schools are closed today because of the assignment. I wonder why it too so long? It makes me wonder the thinking of our teachers. Common sense is not a requirement to be a teacher, but it should be.


----------



## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

I've read this entire thread, but after so many back-and-forths, it all kind of runs together into a slushy, muddy mess of one-upmanship, so this might have already been asked...

Why are they practicing CALLIGRAPHY in a GEOGRAPHY class? Since when did fancy-smanchy penmanship aid, in any way, the teaching of geography??? I've heard that most schools don't even teach CURSIVE any more.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MO_cows said:


> First paragraph, I'm with you all the way. 2nd one, not so much. I don't know how well the Muslim girls would appreciate the infidels "playing dress up" with something that is so important to them. They very well might find it offensive, just like some Indians are offended by non-Indian people wearing things from their culture. Especially if the girl is wearing the hijab along with other clothing that would be considered too revealing. And they don't need "solidarity" anyway. Don't you have any Amish or Mennonites down there? Or nuns even? I see women with various hair coverings on a regular basis. No big deal.


I look upon certain things associated with a certain faith as being significant to those who adhere to that faith. 

There was a time when people were terribly upset because Madonna had taken to wearing a rosary in a disrespectful manner and I'm not sure if the same kids had worn a turban, kirpan, kara and kangha associated with Sikhism would be considered any more respectful than wearing a First Nations traditional headdress. 

Certain cultures and faiths hold certain tangible items as part of their faith and it's best to leave those items as significant.


----------



## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

wWant students to practice calligraphy?.... try this instead


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> wWant students to practice calligraphy?.... try this instead


I was going to post the same thing. After all this is in VA, why not start with the Preamble or the Declaration of Independence?

Of course the answer is the obvious one..........


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

farmrbrown said:


> If it were in Chinese or Japanese, I would be find the educational value and supposed innocence of this assignment to be more believable. If it were in Roman, Greek or even Celtic from the Middle Ages, I would still be inclined to believe that.
> But since Arabic calligraphy is almost exclusive to Islamic writings and only flourished with the Ottoman Empire, that makes it the least valuable historically, and the subject matter rather exclusive.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligraphy
> Therefore either the teacher was blindly ignorant or exactly the opposite.
> ...


Since it is a calligraphy _class_, it is probably safe to assume, that this exercise with Muslim material, won't be the _only_ exercise, for the entire course.

How do your know they don't use script examples from other cultures, even though they would not be as "newsworthy", to skittish parents and an xenophobic Right?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> Since it is a calligraphy _class_, it is probably safe to assume, that this exercise with Muslim material, won't be the _only_ exercise for the entire course.
> 
> How do your know they don't use script from other cultures, even though they would not be as "newsworthy", to skittish parents and an xenophobic Right?


I have no way of knowing, haven't been in a classroom in several years.

But having pointed out the facts in my other post, either this was a coincidentally and unintentional poor choice of material.........or it was neither a coincidence or unintentional.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hippygirl said:


> I've read this entire thread, but after so many back-and-forths, it all kind of runs together into a slushy, muddy mess of one-upmanship, so this might have already been asked...
> 
> Why are they practicing CALLIGRAPHY in a GEOGRAPHY class? Since when did fancy-smanchy penmanship aid, in any way, the teaching of geography??? I've heard that most schools don't even teach CURSIVE any more.


It was simply an *example*, not a real "calligraphy lesson"

Look at the images and you will see they only had to attempt to copy the design with a pencil. It just makes them look closely at the patterns.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by plowjockey View Post
> *Since it is a calligraphy class*, it is probably *safe to assume*, that this exercise with Muslim material, won't be the only exercise for the entire course.
> 
> How do your know they don't use script from other cultures, even though they would not be as "newsworthy", to skittish parents and an xenophobic Right?


It's a *geography *class, as was noted from the beginning.

It's laughable that some believe their children are being "indoctrinated" by is simple assignment when the adults themselves haven't learned the accurate details of the event


----------



## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> _*It was simply an example, not a real "calligraphy lesson"*_
> 
> Look at the images and you will see they only had to attempt to copy the design with a pencil. It just makes them look closely at the patterns.


But why? WHY would they even WANT to do calligraphy in a geography class in the first place???

Whether the physical act/mechanics of writing text in calligraphy was a lesson or an example is moot...again, what does calligraphy have to do with geography?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I was going to post the same thing. After all this is in VA, why not start with the Preamble or the Declaration of Independence?
> 
> Of course *the answer is the obvious one*..........


Yes it's obvious they weren't studying the US


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hippygirl said:


> But why? WHY would they even WANT to do calligraphy in a geography class in the first place???
> 
> Whether the physical act/mechanics of writing text in calligraphy was a lesson or an example is moot...again, *what does calligraphy have to do with geography?*


That much was stated in the image posted.
Read what it said about the designs


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

> *Administrators shut down 24 schools* in Augusta County, Virginia, on Friday after a homework assignment on Islam drew fury from parents, CNN reported.


 This is not as small deal as some would like to think this is a Big Deal. You just don't do this in schools especially at THIS point in time and history.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's a *geography *class, as was noted from the beginning.
> 
> It's laughable that some believe their children are being "indoctrinated" by is simple assignment when the adults themselves haven't learned the accurate details of the event


We LEARNED the details!
We don't believe the reasons given, we believed we're being told lies and we don't don't care to hear any more lies.
Simple, isn't it?



Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes it's obvious they weren't studying the US


Yes, it certainly is.



hippygirl said:


> But why? WHY would they even WANT to do calligraphy in a geography class in the first place???
> 
> Whether the physical act/mechanics of writing text in calligraphy was a lesson or an example is moot...again, what does calligraphy have to do with geography?


Yes, some of us already know that and get that, but the liars of the world still have to try to deceive. That is their way.


----------



## froebeli (Feb 14, 2012)

This teacher happens to be a very well, respected member of the local community and my church. 

This was a World Geography class and this current segment was on World Religion. This was an optional, extra credit exercise from what I understand. The students are learning about many of the World's religions and Islam/Muslims happens to be a pretty major one. 

I agree, at this time and place, that she could have chosen a different line to have them copy, but it is about religion, not calligraphy that this assignment was to solidify. 

The offended parent went directly to the internet and the press in an attempt to create a big stink. Most folks I have talked to are mortified and angry for her inciting the public wrath against our children and schools. The schools were closed to protect the students and teachers from people that sent graphic emails to the administration. 

The school announced they would not use this phrase again. End of story.

Just one more example of how the media only gives part of the story in order to sensationalize and sell their product


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

farmrbrown said:


> I have no way of knowing, haven't been in a classroom in several years.
> 
> But having pointed out the facts in my other post, either this was a coincidentally and unintentional poor choice of material.........or it was neither a coincidence or unintentional.


A handful of parents complained about it, so it's a poor choice of materials?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> A handful of parents complained about it, so it's a poor choice of materials?


See my reply below....




froebeli said:


> This teacher happens to be a very well, respected member of the local community and my church.
> 
> This was a World Geography class and this current segment was on World Religion. This was an optional, extra credit exercise from what I understand. The students are learning about many of the World's religions and Islam/Muslims happens to be a pretty major one.
> 
> ...




First, I will gladly and humbly retract my statements made about the teacher. You have personal knowledge of her and I take you at your word. I hope she accepts my apologies.

Second, according to the OP's article, this mistaken characterization of the assignment was the fault of the school district, not the media, unless the quotes from the district are fabricated. If it was a straightforward lesson on world religions, then the Islamic statement of faith would be an important and relevant subject matter. To mislead the public that it was only a calligraphy exercise with no intent to teach about Islam is an obvious attempt to deceive.
I stand by those remarks and I hope the district officials have learned a lesson about telling the truth when asked.
I'll put the conflicting statements in red.

From the first link of the thread.......

*But the school district doesn&#8217;t seem to think that&#8217;s a problem.

&#8220;The statement presented as an example of the calligraphy was not translated for students, nor were students asked to translate it, recite it or otherwise adopt or pronounce it as a personal belief,&#8221; the district stated. 

They said it was all about the art &#8212; not about the theology. 

&#8220;They were simply asked to attempt to artistically render written Arabic in order to understand its artistic complexity,&#8221; they stated.

And out of sheer coincidence -- out of all the Arabic words and phrases the teacher could have selected, she picked the Islamic statement of faith? 

The district said the assignment was consistent with the Virginia Department of Education Standards of Learning and the requirements for content instruction on world monotheistic religions.

And what about having the female students dressing up in Islamic garb &#8212; is that consistent with the state mandates, too?

The district said the students were taught about the &#8220;modest dress adopted by many in the Islamic faith and were invited to try on a scarf as a part of an interactive lesson about the Islamic concept of modest dress.&#8221;

&#8220;The scarf used in the activity was not an actual Islamic religious hijab,&#8221; the district stated.

The district said they also cover other religions -- including Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism and Hinduism. 

However, one parent told The Schilling Show that while the Koran was presented to students, the Bible was not. The teacher reportedly declined to provide a Bible because all the students have either read or seen a Bible.

The district said there&#8217;s really not a controversy here. They just wanted students to participate in &#8220;hands-on activities intended to give them a better objective understanding of the region and its culture (including its religions and to allow for interactive learning.&#8221;*


----------



## froebeli (Feb 14, 2012)

I'll attempt to address your concerns, and thanks for the apology. 

Second, according to the OP's article, this mistaken characterization of the assignment was the fault of the school district, not the media, unless the quotes from the district are fabricated. If it was a straightforward lesson on world religions, then the Islamic statement of faith would be an important and relevant subject matter. To mislead the public that it was only a calligraphy exercise with no intent to teach about Islam is an obvious attempt to deceive.
I stand by those remarks and I hope the district officials have learned a lesson about telling the truth when asked.
I'll put the conflicting statements in red.

From the first link of the thread.......

But the school district doesnât seem to think thatâs a problem.

âThe statement presented as an example of the calligraphy was not translated for students, nor were students asked to translate it, recite it or otherwise adopt or pronounce it as a personal belief,â the district stated. 

The above statement just shows, to me, they are saying this was not intended to persuade anyone. It said nothing about the activity was just art
They said it was all about the art â not about the theology. 

âThey were simply asked to attempt to artistically render written Arabic in order to understand its artistic complexity,â they stated.

Yes, that was part of the lessen. Again, referring to the fact that the phrase was not an attempt to convert students to Islam

And out of sheer coincidence -- out of all the Arabic words and phrases the teacher could have selected, she picked the Islamic statement of faith? 

The district said the assignment was consistent with the Virginia Department of Education Standards of Learning and the requirements for content instruction on world monotheistic religions.

And what about having the female students dressing up in Islamic garb â is that consistent with the state mandates, too?

One student in the class has stated that the assistant teacher tried on a scarf like Muslim woman would wear and the scarf was passed around for students to try on if they wanted, once. Getting a feel for how it would be like as a Muslim woman would certainly be an interactive way to teach about that religion. 

The district said the students were taught about the âmodest dress adopted by many in the Islamic faith and were invited to try on a scarf as a part of an interactive lesson about the Islamic concept of modest dress.â

âThe scarf used in the activity was not an actual Islamic religious hijab,â the district stated.

The district said they also cover other religions -- including Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism and Hinduism. 

However, one parent told The Schilling Show that while the Koran was presented to students, the Bible was not. The teacher reportedly declined to provide a Bible because all the students have either read or seen a Bible.

the person on The Schilling Show, I believe was the parent offended 

The district said thereâs really not a controversy here. They just wanted students to participate in âhands-on activities intended to give them a better objective understanding of the region and its culture (including its religions and to allow for interactive learning.â


Yup... studying World Religions does that. I don't dispute your feelings, just trying to help folks seeing just a small slice of information get a little more knowledge. This is a very small school system and if I were a county administrator, I would certainly downplay anything I said to the media. Having done media interviews, myself, I can tell you that what ends up in print can be a far cry from what you actually said, too.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I agree with all that, and don't have a problem with introducing students to other cultures and religions in school. That's part of learning and growing up.
The ONLY problem I had was the backpedaling and denial that this was what it was about.
If they had said, "Yes, we had the Islamic phrase copied in class as part of our lesson. Yes we told them exactly what it was. No, it wasn't just a calligraphy lesson, that's ridiculous to think that", I would have been on their side defending them instead of making suspicious accusations.
Making it clear that it was for extra credit would have been a big help too.

As far as speaking to the public and press about it, that's another lesson taught in school.
People automatically know if you try to hide something when asked a direct question. To think you're going to get away with it is just plain dumb.


*&#8220;The statement presented as an example of the calligraphy was not translated for students, nor were students asked to translate it, recite it or otherwise adopt or pronounce it as a personal belief,&#8221; the district stated. 

They said it was all about the art &#8212; not about the theology. 

&#8220;They were simply asked to attempt to artistically render written Arabic in order to understand its artistic complexity,&#8221; they stated.*


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The ONLY problem I had was the *backpedaling and denial* that this was what it was about.


You said earlier the problem was only because it was Islamic.



> Post # 67:
> But *since Arabic calligraphy is almost exclusive to Islamic writings *and only flourished with the Ottoman Empire, that makes it the least valuable historically, and the subject matter rather exclusive.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligraphy
> Therefore either the teacher was blindly ignorant or exactly the opposite.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I have to agree with BFF on this one. When I was in school, I loved Geography and even learning about all the religions involved with our world. It didn't make me want to convert. 

Also if you are of the other leaning remember Sun Tzu said.

_Observe your enemies, for they first find out your faults_

I don't consider them my enemies per say but opinions vary.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You said earlier the problem was only because it was Islamic.


I was waiting for you to try and twist my post again with a partial quote.
Context is so important, another skill taught in school, usually in English class.

*I SAID* it was a problem if it was Islamic *IF THIS WERE MERELY A CALLIGRPHY EXERCISE.*

The conflicting statement by the school district flip-flopped between "all about the art, not theology" and "teaching about the major world religions".

I posted the history of calligraphy to support my position. 

I also retracted my objection when it was clarified, the other poster also indicated this was for extra credit, so it wan't necessarily a mandatory part of the lesson.
I don't believe a word of the story that the students were unaware of the translation and it wouldn't make sense in the context of the true intention of the geography class.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know that too.
> Has it changed your beliefs in any way?
> 
> It's an exercise to teach *calligraphy*, not religion.
> If it were Japanese or Chinese script would you think they are trying to change them at all?





Bearfootfarm said:


> You see "religion"
> I see some strange symbols
> 
> They aren't trying to convert them.
> ...





Bearfootfarm said:


> The "facts" are they are using it as an example of calligraphy, and what it "means" has no relevance. whether you see that or not.
> 
> If the parents didn't overreact, the kids would not have given it a second thought beyond trying to copy the designs





Bearfootfarm said:


> It also mentions multiple times it's a good example of calligraphy.
> 
> Copying the Declaration of Independence wouldn't have much relevance in a *geography* class studying the Middle East





Bearfootfarm said:


> So it's only because it's Muslim as suspected.
> 
> The "subject matter" was *geography*, so yes it will be "rather exclusive".
> 
> The huge uproar doesn't prove right or wrong any more than a BLM riot does. It just shows people are easily incited




The last one is where you go for the "set up".
Context.
Here is my reply..........





farmrbrown said:


> *If it were in Chinese or Japanese, I would be find the educational value and supposed innocence of this assignment to be more believable. If it were in Roman, Greek or even Celtic from the Middle Ages, I would still be inclined to believe that.
> But since Arabic calligraphy is almost exclusive to Islamic writings and only flourished with the Ottoman Empire, that makes it the least valuable historically, and the subject matter rather exclusive.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligraphy
> Therefore either the teacher was blindly ignorant or exactly the opposite.*
> ...






farmrbrown said:


> Correct.
> I refer you to your paraphrased post of Occam's razor.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The last one is where you go for the "set up".


There was no "set up", and the school never contradicted itself.

You specifically stated it was only about it being Muslim

Post #69


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
> So it's only because it's Muslim as suspected.


And you said:


> Correct.
> I refer you to your paraphrased post of Occam's razor.


They weren't trying to convert anyone to Islam, and not everything revolves around you.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There was no "set up", and the school never contradicted itself.
> 
> You specifically stated it was only about it being Muslim
> 
> ...


You like leaving out anything that's relevant, I noticed.

Yes, if it's because it's Muslim, I object.
Why?
Because if it was *calligraphy* as was suggested many, many times (go back and read your own posts) that was about the poorest and historically insignificant example to use, per my post explaining why. If it was done to deceive, that was even worse.
The school district did issue conflicting statements and I posted that in bold red letters so I know you didn't miss it.

There are also a few other reasons I didn't mention that would make this "objectionable" relating to Islam if this were only a calligraphy lesson as claimed.
For one, there is disagreement among Muslims that Mohammed was illiterate. The conventional teaching is that he was. This is emphasized to make his recitation of the Koran more believable that it was spoken to him by Gabriel.
However, being raised as a merchant and several references in the hadith where he asked for paper and pen to write things make this doubtful.

In any case, the fact that Muslims today forbid artistic depictions of Mohammed and radical Muslims discourage higher education, especially for girls would make a lesson using calligraphy as a way of introducing Arab culture to the class controversial, if not downright misleading. Also not all Arabs are muslim, although it is the majority.
As I indicated, if it were Persians or Indians, the calligraphy would be much more relevant.

All of that was based on the erroneous claim that this was about calligraphy, not teaching about Arab, Islamic culture in a geography class.
THAT is not what I find objectionable.
It was exactly what it was presented to be, a lesson about Islam, not an irrelevant calligraphy lesson.


----------



## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

wiscto said:


> Not newsworthy. At all.


If it had involved my child there would be a newsworthy event as a result!


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Wolf mom said:


> You don't think kids are curious enough to ask what it says in English??
> 
> Sometimes we just have to dig below the surface....





Bearfootfarm said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> It didn't mention the ages of the students, and the parents are the ones who said they weren't told the meaning.
> 
> ...





Bearfootfarm said:


> No I didn't miss it.
> 
> Nowhere did it say they translated the symbols, and the story in the OP stated that also.
> 
> Did you miss the parts that mentioned it was about "calligraphy?





Wolf mom said:


> Boy, is that a stretch from what I posted and what I meant.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Then what were you digging for?
> Often the most simple answer is the correct answer




Now that the posts are back in context, my reference to Occam's razor becomes clear. Another poster said it before I did............




Mrs. Thankful said:


> The image I posted was from the OP's article link.
> 
> These quotes below are from the article as well. But the first statement says it's to understand the artistic complexity while the second statement specifically says that it's a part of "content instruction on world monotheistic religions".
> 
> ...





Passing this off as calligraphy, I DID object to it solely because it was the Muslim statement of faith. That strikes me as one of the oddest things that could have been used.
Truthfully stating that this was a lesson on world religions and culture during a geography class on the subject of the Middle east and the calligraphy was for extra credit, I'll buy that explanation all day long and hope the students do well.

The simplest answer IS often the most correct!


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> All of that was based on the erroneous claim that this was about calligraphy, not teaching about Arab, Islamic culture in a geography class.


There's nothing "erroneous"
It says on the assignment it's an example of calligraphy



> Passing this off as calligraphy, I DID object to it *solely because it was the Muslim statement of faith*


That's what I said, and you called me a liar 



> But the first statement says it's to understand the artistic complexity while the second statement specifically says that it's a part of "content instruction on world monotheistic religions".


The fallacy is thinking it has to be either/or, when those aren't mutually exclusive. It was both those things.

What is was NOT is an attempt to change anyone's religion
Much uproar over nothing at all


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's nothing "erroneous"
> It says on the assignment it's an example of calligraphy


And that was all the explanation that was given, rather than just openly saying it was a part of studying the religion of that geographical area.






Bearfootfarm said:


> That's what I said, and you called me a liar
> 
> 
> The fallacy is thinking it has to be either/or, when those aren't mutually exclusive. It was both those things.
> ...


I assume you are referring to this post.........



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
It's a geography class, as was noted from the beginning.

It's laughable that some believe their children are being "indoctrinated" by is simple assignment when the adults themselves haven't learned the accurate details of the event
----------------------


> We LEARNED the details!
> We don't believe the reasons given, we believed we're being told lies and we don't don't care to hear any more lies.
> Simple, isn't it?




Quote:
Originally Posted by hippygirl View Post
But why? WHY would they even WANT to do calligraphy in a geography class in the first place???

Whether the physical act/mechanics of writing text in calligraphy was a lesson or an example is moot...again, what does calligraphy have to do with geography?
-------------------------


> Yes, some of us already know that and get that, but the liars of the world still have to try to deceive. That is their way.






I already quoted a sampling of your posts where you consistently say it had nothing to do with teaching about Islam, just a some calligraphy.(see post #92)
THAT is deception.
The retreat position is to point out that the school board policy already allows the study of world religions, so there is no "conflict" in what was taught.

I saw that too and wholeheartedly agree with it.
Why then not come right out and say THAT from the beginning?
It was the dance around the obvious fact that made it 10 times worse than it really was.
I said what I said because I could hear your fiddle the loudest while the dance was going on.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I already quoted a sampling of your posts where you consistently say it had nothing to do with teaching about Islam, just a some calligraphy.
> THAT is deception.


No, it's not deception at all.
Teaching "about" Islam isn't "teaching Islam"



> &#8220;Neither these lessons, nor any other lesson in the world geography course, are an attempt at indoctrination to Islam or any other religion, or a request for students to renounce their own faith or profess any belief,&#8221; the district said in a statement provided to Fox News.





> *I assume* you are referring to this post.........
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
> ...


You *assume* incorrectly because you overlooked the post to which my remark was directed and *assumed* it was directed towards you

Post # 75:


> Since *it is a calligraphy class*, it is probably safe to assume, that this exercise with Muslim material, won't be the only exercise, for the entire course.
> 
> How do your know they don't use script examples from other cultures, even though they would not be as "newsworthy", to skittish parents and an xenophobic Right?


Even after 74 posts some still didn't seem to know it was a Geography class, and only one small segment of the assignment was an example of calligraphy


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, it's not deception at all.
> Teaching "about" Islam isn't "teaching Islam"
> 
> You *assume* incorrectly because you overlooked the post to which my remark was directed and *assumed* it was directed towards you
> ...


Well then, that was my best guess as to what the heck you were referring to when you claim I called you a liar in this thread. 
I do speak bluntly at times, and that post was one of those times.
So if that ain't it, you'll have to draw me a map so I can find it, lol. 




Bearfootfarm said:


> That's what I said, and you called me a liar


Even in quoting my posts, you only used half of what I said to imply I was against teaching about Islam, when I answered in one word, in one post, "Correct".

I explained more than once, before and after that one word reply, that using a Muslim phrase, no, THE MOST SIGNIFICANT phrase in all of Islam and trying to sell it as an insignificant, unknown, untranslated, irrelevant, non religious, indifferent piece of art to be copied without discussion in class........was what I found objectionable.

Sure, it was within school guidelines and I'm glad it still is.......:huh:
That's right, we studied world religions and culture all thru school when *I* was a kid!
We read, discussed and learned about politics, religion, race, social problems and more. We had to behave civilly but we didn't sugar coat it or pretend it was sterile and devoid of offense and controversy. That's when we learned to write essays, term papers and debate.
I didn't object because it was Muslim, I objected because it obviously was, and others tried to pretend it WASN'T.

Two sentences below, I quoted the SAME post, only I reversed the way you used the bold print, which makes it consistent with everything else I said.




farmrbrown said:


> Now that the posts are back in context, my reference to Occam's razor becomes clear. Another poster said it before I did............
> 
> 
> *Passing this off as calligraphy,* I DID object to it solely because it was the Muslim statement of faith. That strikes me as one of the oddest things that could have been used.
> ...





farmrbrown said:


> I was waiting for you to try and twist my post again with a partial quote.
> Context is so important, another skill taught in school, usually in English class.
> 
> *I SAID* it was a problem if it was Islamic *IF THIS WERE MERELY A CALLIGRPHY EXERCISE.*
> ...





farmrbrown said:


> You like leaving out anything that's relevant, I noticed.
> 
> Yes, if it's because it's Muslim, I object.
> Why?
> ...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *I didn't object because it was Muslim,* I objected because it obviously was, and others tried to pretend it WASN'T.


Deny it all you like.
You said more than once that was the reason.
I believe the totality of what I see, and not everything you say anymore.

Too much of it turns out to be untrue


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Deny it all you like.
> You said more than once that was the reason.
> I believe the totality of what I see, and not everything you say anymore.
> 
> Too much of it turns out to be untrue



It's absolutely true you can find those exact words in black and white in my posts.
They were preceded or followed by a comma, and a completed thought.

Ironically, that's how this thread started.
Had the school board not separated the two facts "this was a calligraphy exercise" and "we are studying Islam in a lesson on world religions and geography", including them in the same sentence or paragraph, it would have been easier to understand and harder to distort, intentionally or otherwise.


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