# Off Grid and Propane



## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

I am curious as to why people choose to live off grid (electric power) but choose to buy propane gas.


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## Countrybumpkin (May 12, 2002)

Would you want to pay for electric heat?


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

Off peek electric is cheaper than propane, electric refrigerator is cheaper to buy and operate than propane. 

So back to the original question.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Well, a lot of folks ( most I'd guess ) live off grid because:

1. The grid just flat isn't available....at all....

2. The grid is sorta available, if you're willing to pay the cost of getting it to your place....which can often run many thousands of bucks. 

Example of this is: In 1985 I built my place way past the end of the line. It took 8 poles to get up here. The power company put it in then for nothing, except I had to agree to buy power ( no minimum specified ) for 3 years. HEY.....sign me up !

TODAY, they would charge $2,000 per pole, and $4/foot for the wire....it would cost me $16k + about $10k for the wire.....something in the $26,000 neighborhood. TODAY, I'd be looking at off grid seriously if I had it to do again.

Thus, off grid folks use solar/wind/whatever to generate what electric power they need, and use propane for cooking, space/water heating, etc.


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks Andy.

How about those that choose not to have grid power when it is readily available?


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Propane is a luxury for me, not a necessity. I operate two fridges and my cook stove with it but I could "Survive" without any of it..

A 20# bottle gives me ~3 months of hot water and a 100# bottle lasts 6-7 weeks for cooking and the fridges.. Cost.. $70. Kinda hard to beat that..

A propane fridge can last a lifetime if you keep it up and running full time.. (No Moving Parts) They're a good investment, IMO..

Propane makes things less complicated verses a lot of complicated gizmos to heat water and ways to feed another type of fridge..


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## rsbhunter (Mar 25, 2012)

In a lot of cases, it is one of the few affordable back up systems that are available off grid. My place is roughly 4-5 miles from any power....so cost wise it is out of the question...and the places that are lower in elevation , and have power available are paying $75.00 a foot, yes a FOOT!, to have underground lines put in(mandatory there). I will use propane probably for a backup generator, heat if extra is needed, and cooking ....at 10,000 ft altitude, and 10 miles in on a well maintained dirt road, i need all the back up i can get, but i would love to have grid available.....rsbhunter


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We have electric grid available to us. Many properties I was looking at did not.

However we bought property that does, now we are hear we have found that it is not reliable.

Our Electric Utility company loses power at least once every month. It is the only thing they do that can be relied upon.

We are going off-grid because we want to have electricity every day on every week.

We will still use propane for our clothes dryer, water-heater and cookstove.

You mentioned 'off-peak' electricity. I have read about that. It makes for good theory. But how do you access off-peak?

If I knew when 'off-peak' was, then I could only use appliances during off-peak, but then how would I document that for the utility company? The meter spins and they would still want to charge me for how much the meter spins.

I do not see anyway to use off-peak to my benefit, assuming that off-peak happens when the grid is up.

If you want power everyday, day after day, you have to make it yourself.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Studhauler said:


> Thanks Andy.
> 
> How about those that choose not to have grid power when it is readily available?



I guess you would have to ask one of them. I have no explanation as to why someone would spend more to have power IF cheap, reliable power were available to them. There are people that will trip over a dime to pick up a penny.

I put in a grid tied solar power system with battery backup due to occasional outages ( very infrequent ), but more due to the belief that the grid could quite possibly go away some day down the road, and I sorta liked the 20th century style of living.


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

For some it is about their beliefs and not a money issue. Sometimes following your beliefs is more expensive. I am wondering what those beliefs may be; if someone is willing to share on a public forum. Why do they buy propane but not electricity? 

I too like the 20th century way of living, but there are time I want to pull the plug.

My father gave me a generator for Christmas in 1999 for the Y2K scare. I haven't lost power for more than two hours since I got the genset.


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

Off peak electric is used primarily for heating, at least on a residential level. There are two meters, one for your normal electricity and one for off peak. You have two meters, two sets of power wires coming into the house, two fuss box. The utility company or the government or someone regulates what can be connected to the off peak meter. When the utility company has peak loads they electronically shut off the off peak coming into the house. Therefore it is a requirement that there is a back-up heat source in the house. For me normal electricity is 14 cents a KW, off peak is 7 cents.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

For my purposes, a grid hookup requires a social security number, and, the grid is subject to it's own whims, such as price increases, land easements and power outages.

The purchase and use of propane and other hydrocarbons does not require a social security number (yet), nor an easement onto your land, and they do give the homesteader some greater degree of control in the matter of dependability.
Also, hydrocarbons can be purchased in bulk in the off season at a great savings.

For my purposes, propane is cheaper to use in many applications than electricity, due to the high kilowatt hour cost to rural areas.

As TnAndy mentioned, the outright cost of hookup has become a major contributing factor, as well.

Eventually, of course, all stopgaps and conveniences offered will cease, and that is where setting up and learning to live only on immediately available resources is key.

While propane is available and affordable, it is an efficient resource.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

I just bought a property that is a mile from the nearest electricity. I am going to build a homestead on it but unless I win the lottery it will be too expensive to run electricity to it. 

Then there is our fearless leader who is shutting down the entire coal industry and coal fired generating plants. He is also talking about cap and trade which is a tax on carbon emmissions. He has admitted that electricity rates will skyrocket in the near future. I elect not to participate.

I am currently hooked up to the electricity nipple and I do enjoy the convience. However, The new place will be built to minimise the electricity needs and they will come from solar pannels. I won't give up my microwave and at least some TV watching.

I have propane because I like a gas stove much better than an electric stove and I like the backup propane furnace. I heat with wood and have not fired up the furnace in the last few years except to test it. 

I bought a used 250 gallon propane tank last summer. It holds 200 gallons because they can't fill it up over 80%. I guess it would run the furnace for several months if I really needed it. Using it just for the stove, it should last 5 years, a good hedge against the price going up and a good prep.

12volt, 
Owning your own bulk tank means that you can shop around for the best price on propnae and buy it in the summer offseason when it's cheapest. I filled the tank last summer for $1.25 a gallon. If I take a 20 or 100 pound tank to town and have it filled it costs me $3.50 a gallon, almost 3 times what it cost to have them come out and fill the big tank. The used tank cost me $250 and another $250 to have it filled. 

A 100 pound tank holds 80 pounds and , at 4 pounds per gallon, that's 20 gallons. You have to fill it 10 times at a cost of $70 per tank full to equall the 200 gallons I put in my tank so it would cost you $700. This does not include the labor to haul it to town and the gasoline to make the trip. 

It really is a bargin at twice the price.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> I guess you would have to ask one of them. I have no explanation as to why someone would spend more to have power IF cheap, reliable power were available to them. There are people that will trip over a dime to pick up a penny.


'IF' a person did live where municipal power was cheap and reliable, then the decision would be due to some other factor.





> ... I put in a grid tied solar power system with battery backup due to occasional outages ( very infrequent ), but more due to the belief that the grid could quite possibly go away some day down the road, and I sorta liked the 20th century style of living.


I have friends who live in a near city, that have a grid-tie setup. They like that they are helping the grid.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Studhauler said:


> Off peak electric is used primarily for heating, at least on a residential level. There are two meters, one for your normal electricity and one for off peak. You have two meters, two sets of power wires coming into the house, two fuss box. The utility company or the government or someone regulates what can be connected to the off peak meter. When the utility company has peak loads they electronically shut off the off peak coming into the house. Therefore it is a requirement that there is a back-up heat source in the house. For me normal electricity is 14 cents a KW, off peak is 7 cents.


So if I buy two meters, then on days when the grid is up, I would be able to use some power at a lower price?

But even after all that, you still need power for the rest of the time.

Buy two meters, duplicate circuits, do a bunch of stuff and still have to be off-grid? Seems like a lot of cash out-lay and junk.



Lets say that we have a miracle and the grid stays up 3 weeks out of every 4. How much can really be saved during those 3 weeks, to off-set the expense?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Off peak metering can be a good deal, but you have to recognize that not all utilities around the country offer it. Ours doesn't.

Also, the new "smart" meters don't require a second meter, since it sends a use report about every 15min, it's simply a matter of billing the rate for the various times of day.

We also use propane.....I have 3 -- 500gal tanks, one for normal use, the other two I always hold in reserve. Our cooktop, water heater, and small wall heater are propane, plus I have the gas grill on the deck plumbed into the line.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I could see running your house from an invertor powered by a battery-bank. Then you could charge the battery-bank using off-peak power. If your utility company offered off-peak power [two meters or one smart meter].

Then you would only need a propane generator for days they do not feel like having the grid up.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

@ Nimrod..

I wanted to install a larger tank here but I can't find a local supplier that will drive a fill truck up my drive.. 

Guess I could lay ~3k' of gas line to a tank down below but then I'd have nit-wits messin' with it. Sometimes ya just can't win..


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

I have two meters, they both are smart meters. They both are taped into the same transformer. The utility company only has one grid, the peak and off peak systems start at my meter sockets. The main meter is for all the regular stuff. The off peak is just for those special load that the power company allows; like electric heat, some domestic water heaters if they are big enough (mine isn't) swimming pool heating, but not hot tubs, electric heat storage (in your concrete floor).

The off peak is also regulated to how much they can turn it off and for how long, thanks to government regulations. I think the limit for turn off is 5 hours once per day. My off peak doesn't get shut off very often, maybe once or twice a week in the winter, usually around supper time, how every it hasn't be off for at least a week now. Don't know about the summer.

My electric utility company is a co-op. They have their own coal fired power plant in central North Dakota right next to an open pit coal mine, and of course they are tied to the national grid. This may be why my rate are cheaper and the off peak in seldom shut off.

Yes; to get set up for off peak is expensive. To pull the plug and go off the grid would be leaving allot of capital in the ground. (my wires are buried.)


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

12vman said:


> @ Nimrod..
> 
> I wanted to install a larger tank here but I can't find a local supplier that will drive a fill truck up my drive..


I wonder if you could mount it on a farm trailer like an anhydrous ammonia tank? Well I know you could mount it , but would they fill it?


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Some folks simply prefer to cook on a gas stove rather than an electric. For me it will be a strictly back up type of thing. I have got some of the best solar exposure in the northern hemisphere and I by golly plan to use it every way I possibly can. 

As to why I'm going solar....let me count the ways. As mentioned before, must give a social security number and here they require a credit check. I don't use credit at all ever, so I'm sure my numbers are pretty low. The cost per kilowatt is pretty pricey here. The local power company is an absolute  to deal with. I've already had one screaming match with an employee...that happens to be the one that determines how much it will cost you for the privilege of paying a monthly bill. Needless to say, he would probably change me double to connect now. :clap: The power goes out during the summer monsoon season for weeks at a time. Anything I can do to be more self sufficient....you betcha I'm going to do it. It just seems like a shame to waste all of this year around sunshine.

The main reason? I have a deep seated belief that our country can't keep going down the same path it has been and not go pffft. I'm doing all I possibly can to get independent quickly.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

For many years the appliances that took electric, and if one want convince of appliances, to put in solar or other was prohibit in cost to make enough to have them work reliably.

propane was a reliable way to provide the energy for them,

trucks can go where power lines do not,

even if Independence is your goal, I can buy enough propane for a few years at a time and wait until summer price drops are avaible to buy, 

unlike a Utility, I can choose many times from between a number of suppliers, that either will offer me the best price or service,

if the only purpose was to go "OFF GRID" then why even any electric might as well take a tent or a cave and like a cave man, 


I think most like some level of convince, and they do not nessarly want to totally disappear, but do not l nessarly want to be held hostage by some utility that could go down in a blink, I know it is some what the same with propane, but like I said one can buy up in advance and have months if not years of supply on the propane and if it comes that there is a collapse at least one would have a few days months or years, to additional prepare, to be with out it, 
even if on the electricity one will need to replace batteries at some time, 
you can not totally escape society,


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

12v Man,

I found a picture of the road you live on. You just need to find an adventurous propane truck driver. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT24RfutkjY[/ame] If he went over the side the propane explosion wouldn't make much difference.

Seriously, can't you fix the road so they could get to your place? Maybe you don't want the relatives to visit?


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

HeHe.. It's kinda nice "not" gettin' visitors most of the time, especially during the summer. The lack of air conditioning enhances the lack of clothing.. 

I did fix the drive last fall but I haven't asked any of the suppliers to come and check it out. They might work with me now since the 2' deep ruts are filled in..


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Studhauler said:


> I wonder if you could mount it on a farm trailer like an anhydrous ammonia tank? Well I know you could mount it , but would they fill it?


I thought of that but never did it. They whine when I pull up in my Subaru with a 100# bottle in the back. They always remind me that it's not legal.. :yawn:


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## Studhauler (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the comments about why you are off grid but still use propane.


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## katlupe (Nov 15, 2004)

_



I am curious as to why people choose to live off grid (electric power) but choose to buy propane gas.

Click to expand...

_First off, I don't really see what one has to do with the other. Unless you mean because you have to buy the propane or buy the electric. It is a choice that someone chooses one over the other.

When we first moved here, I couldn't imagine not having a refrigerator and the house came with a propane refrigerator. So it was a no brainer to run to the convenience store and fill up the little gas grill tanks to run it. Made life nice. Then we added a new propane stove to replace the old one that came in the house. Now, I have to admit I love canning on a propane stove more than the electric or wood. So in the long run it was cheaper for us and our financial position. As the years went by, we got rid of the refrigerator and lived without one for over 6 years. 

During that time, we put our money into building our alternative energy system. Now if we had paid the electric company to come down our road we would have been paying on that big cost plus our monthly bill. Our house is old and needed a lot of work and insulating before it would be energy efficient enough to use electric here. It would have been way more than what we could afford to pay. And our property is a tiny piece of land in the forest with an old house. So even after we would have paid to bring the power grid here, it still wouldn't have been worth much.

Now we have lived here since 1999 with absolutely no electric bill, no heating bill and a small propane bill for the propane stove. Now our system is much bigger and we have a solar refrigerator. Soon our house will be a little more normal. But that is because we have been able to live without the big electric and heating bills to put that money into our system and house remodel. Otherwise, I think we would not have been able to survive here. 

Another thing is that since it is off-the-grid and has its own alternative energy system and is set up with a barn and lots of raised beds made of rock, it has increased in value. It used to be just a hunting camp in the middle of the state forest. Now it is a home and it is worth something. So for someone wanting to be as independent as possible, I feel being off-the-grid totally is the way to go. There are no rules, everyone does what is best for them.


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## SpaceCadet12364 (Apr 27, 2003)

12vman said:


> @ Nimrod..
> 
> I wanted to install a larger tank here but I can't find a local supplier that will drive a fill truck up my drive..
> 
> Guess I could lay ~3k' of gas line to a tank down below but then I'd have nit-wits messin' with it. Sometimes ya just can't win..


You don't have to put the tank down there just the fill connection. Remote gauge reading would help. I have a remote fill on my truck and it uses the same connection as a home tank.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

We just wanted to live simply but with a few modern conveniences. We started with lamps and a wood stove. We added a very small 12v solar system, then a small 24 volt Micro hydro system. We have minimal 12v outlets and light fixtures. We are all LED. We are lucky in that we have gravity fed water, good pressure and full flow from a 1 1/2" pipe year around. We have hot running water anytime we run the wood stove with solar heated water after it warms up. We also have a very small 24v refrigerator. We truly are off grid....James


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