# How do you raise Grass fed beef cattle?



## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Does anyone raise their beef cattle on grass only? 

If so, can you tell us how they grow?

What is their weight gain like? 

What breed do you raise?

How long does it take to get them to butcher?

What is an ideal weight for butcher?

Do you feed Fresh pasture rotational grazing? 
Dry hay?
Sileage?

How big are they? Total weight?
Hanging weight?
How old at butcher!


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Any other suggestions on how you raise your beef cattle and get them to market satisfactorily-all welcome!

Trying to learn!

Thank you!


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Grass fed means no grain...but you can use grain plants in their vegatative state. So silage will usually be ok. I know I've seen silage used at dairies that ship to milk plants that sell their stuff as grass fed.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Yes, I feed my cattle on grass only with hay as a supplementary winter feed. The milkers get fed a small amount of grain/nuts at milking which is more of a treat than a feed, hand reared calves get grain as well as milk, cow reared calves get no grain. They grow well but probably not as fast as something getting corn poured into it. Most of my breeding cows are dairy/beef crosses with Angus as a terminal sire. Their growth rate and finished size will depend very much on what breed they have in them i.e those which are Jersey/Angus are likely to be smaller and slower than something with Friesian/Hereford/Angus but that doesn't always follow.

We slaughter cattle for the freezer at around 18months-2 years, cattle going to the works are usually 2 years.

Yes, I rotational graze but not in a strict sequence as not all paddocks grow at exactly the same rate. I also run sheep which get put in behind the cattle.

As a matter of interest, the following denotes what is considered a pasture fed animal in NZ, including meat for export.
*PASTURE FED *means that the animals have been raised under normal New Zealand farming conditions with year round access to grass (e.g. hay, silage, lucerne, feed crops or other grazed or conserved forages) and other supplementary feeds (including manufacturing feeds, provided that you have a statement from the manufacturer that the feed does not contain animal fat or animal protein, other than dairy. You must keep the manufacturers declaration. Where animals have been fed on a feed pad or feed lot other than for short term periods (e.g. only as supplementary feed immediately prior to slaughter) then they would not be "pasture fed" because of not having year-round access to grass.

Probably not helpful to you

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Thank you for the replies! All are helpful and it is interesting to learn what others do.

It seems in raising animals or even in selling eggs, there is terminology that is used that appeals as an advertising campaign as much as anything, rather than sound and honest farming practices.

The one that our family has had some laughs over, are regarding chickens and eggs! There was a fast food chain that advertised that the chickens are fed no antibiotics....Well, who would give a chicken an antibiotic when they are only alive for 5-8 weeks? Then there are all of the misled customers on eggs....free range chickens(definition of free range isn't what you visualize!), vegetarian fed only chickens/though they free range!? Natural eggs=Brown eggs, etc...!

Also, processing and labeling laws apply when raising/selling meat-federal &/or individual states required labeling/. Not sure how that varies in New Zealand or elsewhere? I am aware that some of our lamb sold in the states comes from New Zealand & Australia! 

We have a mix of breeds, as we bought cattle from someone getting out of raising them. Not sure we have good stock at this point, but it is what we were able to get originally. Our cattle breeds include mixes of some Angus, Hereford, Galloway, and a few have some Holstein mixed in. So, they are a bunch of mixed up cattle!

As it takes 1 1/2-2 years to raise them to butcher on grass/pasture, how big should they get? We harvested two, and their live weights were very disappointing. One was taken too soon, but the other was just over the two year mark and didn't quite reach 1,000 pounds. Some of ours seem to grow better, but am doubting we are missing something in feeding them out as grass fed.

What type of minerals do you offer yours?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Grass pasture in the summer then feed hay in the winter that came off the ground we winter pasture on.

My little brothers place:
https://4tbarallnaturalbeef.com/

WWW


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Oh, my! So awesome! 
Of course, in WYOMING! Love it! 
Oh, my goodness! My mouth is watering!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

odieclark said:


> It seems in raising animals or even in selling eggs, there is terminology that is used that appeals as an advertising campaign as much as anything, rather than sound and honest farming practices.


I get quite a laugh at the egg section in the grocery store. People want to purchase with their conscience, especially when the difference is pocket change, but they have no information to base their purchases on.
Brown eggs from hens kept the same as the hens that produce white eggs, seem more natural. Free range creates an image of Grandma's backyard flock, when it is actually far different. I could go on and on.

In an upscale grocery store near Detroit, their meat case is beautiful. Pricy, too. I saw a sign on some nice looking sirloins, " Pasture Raised". Most of the grain free beef I've seen was awful, so this sparked my interest. I started a conversation with the butcher. He explained that these cattle were pasture raised before they went to the feed lot for 6 to 8 weeks of fattening on grain.

40 years ago, the budding organic movement had all sorts of healthy sounding terms with no specific definition. Finally, the USDA brought the several organic groups together to hammer out a standard with requirements and a definition of terms.

Until a standard is set on eggs or beef, I expect to see misleading truths. We have 50,000 words in our vocabulary, yet what constitutes "pasture" is quite different from person to person.

I had a neighbor jump into the cattle business. He found several hundred acres of uncultivated land he could get for free. He mended fences and hauled in water tanks. The cattle had it all eaten down to nothing in a few weeks. He supplemented pasture with some old grass hay. By summer's end those cattle had grown, but the quality of beef was low.
In Columbia, there are vast acreages of lush, chest high grass with frequent rains and a long season. I think that Columbia"pastured beef" would be far better than Boondock's goldenrod "pastured beef".
It concerns me when a poorly funded homestead thinks they can avoid the cost of grain and utilize marginal fields while expecting a high quality, healthy product.

Chicken Tenders advertised as hormone free, when there has never been any chicken hormones. Eggs from hens fed a vegetarian diet, when few if any layer mashes contain any animal protein. Humanely Raised or Naturally Raised are terms that have no legal meaning.

If I told you that cage free hens live longer than caged hens, you'd accept that as true. But in reality, cage free hens death rate is higher than caged birds. I doubt you'd accept that as easily.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Haypoint, oh you know it! I agree with much if not all of what you say! Though, I can’t say I am familiar with your neighbor or Columbia specifically of course! 

All of the chicken and egg claims are somewhat hysterical at times! Yes, standards would be best!

On the other hand, I do appreciate people wanting more healthy food choices,...but at what price,...?

The organic issue is another controversy even within our own family! Us and our kids who are or have went to school for some of this, well, the short is one is more on the organic side and the other who claims it is some of the organic folks who make false claims and make the system more challenging,.. and so on!

I just hear it all out, and try to assist in the best way possible to keep the health records for these animals,.... read, ask, watch, ...

I guess, I can honestly say ours have not just had hay, and pasture, as I found they love pumpkins! Ours have had many pumpkins in the last two months! Now when I come by them, or even drive my own car by them, well they run to me expecting pumpkins! . Honestly, when I go by the fence edge, it seems the earth bounces a bit with them running over to me!

But, still need better pasture likely, hay-improvements, better minerals perhaps, or maybe it’s just bad genetics?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Genetics plays a big role in growth. But you won't find superior, thick loins, fast growth in a bull you buy on Craig's list. Hard to justify a $6000 bull for 10 cows.
I n my experiences, good, fertile ground was in crop production and the rocky, sand ridges, brushy ground was pasture. An Amish friend has the opposite view. He makes sure his pastures are well fertilized, limited weeds and never over-grazed. This way, he contends, he gets pasture weeks earlier in the Spring and a month or more in the Fall.That is feed he does not have to harvest, store and feed out.
In Michigan, the Cattleman's Association has a Bull Test. About a hundred bull calves, from nearly 100 farms, are brought together for the Fall and Winter, weighed and judged and in March, auctioned. These top quality bulls bring a nice premium. But are often out of reach of the small farm. However, the farms that can afford these superior genetics, often have an older bull that will go to a livestock auction for hamburger. A ton bull might only bring $1600. A small beef operation may buy such a bull, use him for a few months, then recoup their money by selling him at auction. The down sides are that you have to spend time locating such a situation, you have to insure he is sound and fertile and a ton bull might strain any heifers he covers.

If you feed pumpkins to your beef, can you still call them grass fed? How about Beet Pulp? If you market your beef as "no grain, ever", does that count rice?


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Quality of pasture, quality of hay, genetics, husbandry practices will all play a role in your results.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.mibulls.com/uploads/2/3/2/0/2320662/2017-18_26_day_report.pdf
http://www.mibulls.com/

This should give you an idea of typical, quality weight gains on pasture and silage.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Thank you all for the input! 

Haypoint and Allen, and anyone else still reading this, I think it is a combination of issues to get beef to market at preferred weights. Quality of pasture, hay, genetics, animal husbandry,... plus, seeing and reading the info on a quality bull, well, I feel that is where we should begin! Certainly the bull we used for most of our breeding would not have been a good choice. He just went to the processor at 2 1|2 years of age. Very light weight under 1,000

He was much too small and obviously didn’t have quality genetics behind him! Not sure how a 2+ year bull comes out on meat quality or on flavor, toughness , ? Any of you have experience with that? 

I guess the best I can say, is there won’t be that much meat! I guess I am not sure if that is reassuring or depressing!

haypoint, so true, the 20+ cattle have downed about 50 pumpkins in total this fall between all of them, so no they wouldn’t be 100% grass fed! I guess I messed up that marketing claim! . Dang! But, the Pumpkins they just loved and,.... well, it has been a way for us to get them to come to us and follow us. We do move them into Fresh pasture as we are able. I have been called on at times to get them to follow, and mind you I am just over 100 pounds myself! I guess a treat for a cow is never forgotten! At least they follow me now, even if it is all because of the food!... ! 

With all of that said, isn’t it always about the food anyhow? It’s what gets all of us sometimes! Whether it’s the aroma of fresh bakery, a sizzling piece of meat, a favorite recipe of someone that you love,...gets you to go there every time!


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Just wanted to add, Hiro posted in cattle, I am still hungry, in this forum. While it is more about a rejected calf and bottle feeding it, is an interesting read and one I am curious to follow as well. 

In raising cattle, knowing when to pull a calf is another situation we haven’t yet dealt with! In Hiro situation the mother couldn’t or wouldn’t feed it, which of course makes it more obvious.

My concern is with winter, and if one last cow calves -will it be too cold to survive outside? Temps are now at freezing temps and nights colder.

We also had one bull calf born November 19th, much too late! So far he is good and strong and has an experienced larger than life mother, but we are keeping our eyes on him!


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I thought about trying to raise grass fed cattle but couldn't ever quit swallow the hook. Here I would have a narrow window in the spring to hit with adequate nutrition to say I truly finished them on grass. Not a big deal but would make marketing more difficult. My big problem was year round nutrition if I hit all the marks with wheat pasture and some late summer cow peas and sudex I could keep a good plane of high protein feed for them. But mother nature is a fickle mistress and wrecks havoc with ones plans, between droughts and arctic blasts ideal conditions don't last. I could raise or buy hay but that doesn't always meet the animals needs and isn't always convenient so at this time I just have cows and calves. Right know I sell calves as yearlings, I have a couple of more steps before I'm ready to try feeding any and that will be grain fed when I do, partly becuse I can extend when I finish them over a longer period of time and still keep a tight breeding season.

Not knocking any one for grass feeding and not knocking you, your here asking questions to a problem you are seeing and wanting to improve things. I would advise a look at your animals nutrition levels through out the year.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I'll be honest, I don't buy the grass fed/finished beef idea. Kroger had requests for grass finished beef. So, they carried it for a trial period of three months. The customer tag they scan to get you the discounts at checkout is used to track buying trends. During this trial period, they sold a lot of pastured beef. But 98% of it was a single purchase, almost no one bought it twice. That tells me people like the sound of it far more than they like the taste of it. For the small operation, selling to family, friends, neighbors and co-workers, at a premium, I fear they will be disappointed.

If feeding ground soybean is taboo to pasture raised beef, how do you justify pasturing them on field peas? Since hay is a big part of pastured beef, is oat hay, with some grain heads really grain-free? Can you pasture a soybean field after harvest? Some bale soybean fields after harvest. Is soybean hay really just hay? Can you graze corn stubble fields? Is that still pasture?
Bull makes good lean hamburger. I hated to send a 2300 pound bull to auction. But I couldn't find a dozen people that would buy 100 pounds of hamburger or 120 people that would buy 10 pounds. Marketing is hard.

If you can locate someone that does AI, that would get you a quality bull. A couple embryo transplants would get you a top quality herd sire and a foundation cow to build your quality herd.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

It really depends on what a customer means by "quality grass finished beef". Some people want flavorful, but lean and tender beef. Others, myself included, want flavorful, tender and well marbled grass finished beef. People that claim to raise well marbled beef consistently in less than 2 years on grass alone are not being honest. Really good genetics on really good pasture can yield moderately marbled beef (say high select or maybe even low choice) by age 2. Cattle really put on intramuscular and extramuscular fat once the animal's frame, viscera, muscle and reproductive needs are met. This usually happens at between 16 and 20 months. The fact is pasture doesn't produce enough calories to pack on significant intramuscular fat in 4-8 months. Usually it's more like 8-12 months.

The problem is, most people are not willing to overwinter their 1 1/2 year old cattle to allow them to fatten up during the spring flush the following year. This costs money...a lot of money. Grain finishing is A LOT cheaper. I sell both grass and grain finished. It's a lot easier to market $5/lb grain finished beef than it is $8 or $10 or $12/lb grass finished beef. I've yet to see quality grass finished beef at any grocery store...even the high end ones and they are charging $25-$30/lb for the premium steaks and $15/lb for burger....most of it looks like bull meat.

Word of mouth and repeat customers keep my grass finished business growing. People that want quality beef at lower prices keep them buying grain finished. Several of my grain customers have converted to grass. Only one of my grass customers has converted to grain. I have a couple grass customers that want lean beef. I simply pick out steers that are well muscled but lean and charge them grain price.

I make more money from grain finishing, but it's easier to keep grass finished customers if you raise quality grass finished beef because virtually no one raises grass finished beef the right way...at least around here. There's a hippie run grass finished Devon farm about 20 miles away from me that has really good beef and he has a 2 year waiting list. They don't butcher a day before 3 years of age.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Allen W said:


> I thought about trying to raise grass fed cattle but couldn't ever quit swallow the hook. Here I would have a narrow window in the spring to hit with adequate nutrition to say I truly finished them on grass. Not a big deal but would make marketing more difficult. My big problem was year round nutrition if I hit all the marks with wheat pasture and some late summer cow peas and sudex I could keep a good plane of high protein feed for them. But mother nature is a fickle mistress and wrecks havoc with ones plans, between droughts and arctic blasts ideal conditions don't last. I could raise or buy hay but that doesn't always meet the animals needs and isn't always convenient so at this time I just have cows and calves. Right know I sell calves as yearlings, I have a couple of more steps before I'm ready to try feeding any and that will be grain fed when I do, partly becuse I can extend when I finish them over a longer period of time and still keep a tight breeding season.
> 
> Not knocking any one for grass feeding and not knocking you, your here asking questions to a problem you are seeing and wanting to improve things. I would advise a look at your animals nutrition levels through out the year.


So is Sudex a Sorghum-Sundangrass hybrid? A cover crop? 

Nutrition needs in the winter are likely part of the challenge. It’s always more challenging maintaining growth when the body is working to keep warm. 

Grass fed beef is trendy, but isn’t straight forward or simple as it sounds!


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Haypoint, I hear what you are saying and at this point I am not sold either! However, we certainly are learning and don’t have the best stock either,...

Gravytrain interesting on the pricing, the demands, and what is for sale in the stores,...all to be watched. I find it interesting that your neighbor takes 3 years! That seems long, but maybe that’s how long it takes!? But, if it takes 2-3 years, that makes an expensive animal to raise! 

Lots to think about


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I believe the govt had guidelines for grassfed but pretty much gave them up because of questions like hayponts...I believe only a few places were able to folllow the guidelines fully. So now any regs are from private entities.

I am pretty liberal in the application of " grassfed" as long as the plant still has some green or the seeds would not be able to be used as grain I would call it forage. Anything not normally used as grain like pumpkins would be fine by me as well.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Sammyd. I know what you mean, a few pumpkins amongst all the pounds of grass and hay they eat in their lifetime,... minuscule! However, we aren’t trying to break any rules or laws whatsoever, just trying to learn how best to raise them and get them to market! Deciding to apply for organic status, as most of the land they are on is now certifiable,...is it worth the paperwork? /will we continue to keep it this way?,...? 
We bought most of the cattle, so any claims on them if we sell them, would really be just a guess? 

Our goal currently is to understand how to raise them best, meet their needs, and come out on top! Growing the herd is the plan. Selling, well, we don’t have anything to sell in the beef department yet! Misleading any future buyers would not be in our best interest, that much we understand. 

Other than some of that, my personal goal and role is to keep their health records, DOB, if they were banded or castrated, who was bred to who, and so on,... I confess to enjoying watching them and treating them at times, to a pumpkin, as they obviously enjoy them immensely! Their lives are short, why can’t they enjoy a little treat after all? The side bonus has been that they identify with me and follow me because of it! Face it, we need to move them at times, to new pastures, new fenced areas, to a trailer to go to another farm or the processer is needed at times, so this has made those things possible! We purchased all of our original stock, so they need to get to know us and us them.

I will have to locate a little video of some of them chowing on a pumpkin!


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

odieclark said:


> So is Sudex a Sorghum-Sundangrass hybrid? A cover crop?
> 
> Nutrition needs in the winter are likely part of the challenge. It’s always more challenging maintaining growth when the body is working to keep warm.
> 
> Grass fed beef is trendy, but isn’t straight forward or simple as it sounds!


Yes sudex is a common name here for a sorghum=suden hybrid. It's often planted here for grazing and hay.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

sammyd said:


> I believe the govt had guidelines for grassfed but pretty much gave them up because of questions like hayponts...I believe only a few places were able to folllow the guidelines fully. So now any regs are from private entities.
> 
> I am pretty liberal in the application of " grassfed" as long as the plant still has some green or the seeds would not be able to be used as grain I would call it forage. Anything not normally used as grain like pumpkins would be fine by me as well.


I understand that there are no public regulations or definitions for grass fed or grass finished. But, if you are cool with feeding anything/everything that does not have viable grain, your definition is more anti-grain than pro-grass.

I think we have a bit of a movement that avoids grain. I see costly pet foods advertise "Grain Free". Like somehow grain has become bad.

Hard for me to believe when the most common product in the human diet for thousands of years is wheat, suddenly 30% of the population has a self-diagnosed gluten allergy. How can that not be a fad?

I'm enjoying this thread. Too often people jump into the complex world of grass fed beef with little understanding of the nutritional challenges.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

odieclark said:


> I find it interesting that your neighbor takes 3 years! That seems long, but maybe that’s how long it takes!? But, if it takes 2-3 years, that makes an expensive animal to raise!
> 
> Lots to think about


Most of my grass beeves are butchered somewhere around 30 months. However, I never send an animal to the butcher before it is ready, so it's always a matter of evaluating the beef while it is on the hoof, and NOT relying on a calendar to tell me when an animal should head down the road. If you send an animal too soon before it is properly marbled, you risk losing a $2000/year customer. It takes a bit of practice and experience, but you can learn what a side of beef and individual cuts will look like while the animal is still walking on pasture. I try to always evaluate the hanging carcass in the butcher's meat locker and compare it to my predictions on the hoof. I just spent a week at Penn State's meat science lab honing these skills. 

I'm at an advantage over my neighbor, because all of my animals are grain-free to an age of ~13-17 months (depending on when they were born the previous year...I start grain finishing late June for a late October processing). Yearlings that aren't roly poly and well developed on pasture alone will either be put into the queue for grain finishing or will be rejected altogether and sent to the sale barn. Grain free animals can always be grain finished, but never the other way around.

Most of the time I know when a calf is born which direction it will be heading the next year based on the history of that calf's lineage.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

sammyd said:


> I believe the govt had guidelines for grassfed but pretty much gave them up because of questions like hayponts...I believe only a few places were able to folllow the guidelines fully. So now any regs are from private entities.


Yes, they (the USDA) revoked the grassfed standard shortly after instituting it about two years ago.



> I am pretty liberal in the application of " grassfed" as long as the plant still has some green or the seeds would not be able to be used as grain I would call it forage. Anything not normally used as grain like pumpkins would be fine by me as well.


I often plant rye in late fall for an early grazing opportunity for the early spring. I'll also no-till non-grain annuals into existing pastures to help in the summer slump.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

haypoint said:


> ...I think we have a bit of a movement that avoids grain. I see costly pet foods advertise "Grain Free". Like somehow grain has become bad.
> 
> Hard for me to believe when the most common product in the human diet for thousands of years is wheat, suddenly 30% of the population has a self-diagnosed gluten allergy. How can that not be a fad?...


Same time period the majority of wheat is has become GMO and Roundup ready. I think it may be more of a glyphosate problem than a gluten allergy.

WWW


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Same time period the majority of wheat is has become GMO and Roundup ready. I think it may be more of a glyphosate problem than a gluten allergy.
> 
> WWW


There may be some experimental GMO wheat but there is none that is available for farmers to plant.
There is no Roundup Ready wheat to be had either.
I suggest you find some other myths to worry about.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Oh boy, I guess this topic could get testy! So, even in our family, two sons having college and tech college training, along with hands on in working in farming/other farms, organic, conventional, somewhere in between, ...well, long story short they have been taught differently and have different views on all of this. 

I try to listen, learn, read, ask questions, and watch and see! Try to keep peace!? 

Can we feed the world organically? That I don’t think that can work. Also, what works for one farm, may not work for another -obviously weather, soil, animals, amount of land available-what was done on the land previously,...so many factors!

We are trying to learn to raise animals in a healthy way and to get them to reproduce and grow to healthy weights. We need to learn a great deal, and hopefully never stop learning!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Maybe, before the family gets together again, you can digest this and be better prepared to discuss this topic:
https://gmoanswers.com/

Good luck!


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

A lot of different ways of doing the same thing and a factual exchange makes a good post on the board, hopefully we can keep it on track.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

haypoint said:


> Maybe, before the family gets together again, you can digest this and be better prepared to discuss this topic:
> https://gmoanswers.com/
> 
> Good luck!


Haypoint and Allen,

Exactly my point! 

Thanks 4 saying what I was trying to say!

And, Haypoint-I will accept. “Luck!”

My dad always says, you can have skill and you can also have luck, ...but he was referring more to when he was teaching me as a kid to play cards, not in how to raise a good crop!

I will check that link out. I need to understand GMOs better! 

Thanks!


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I have to show people that ask why we don't grass finish anymore how little that means. I show them soy hull pellets that you can feed to your heart's content and still legally label it grass fed/finished, then cattle feed that you can't feed and label grass finished(well unless it endangers the health of the animal by the current guidelines not to supplement with grain, then you can feed it). There is a huge profit margin increase in labeling. And the label often doesn't mean what the consumer thinks it does. I am too cantankerous to play those games. I really don't do retail sales, anymore. If you want to buy lamb or beef, you can buy it on the hoof and come pick it up. Otherwise, I'll just carry it to a graded auction and wait for the check to come in the mail.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Agreed though we aren’t that far yet! Growing the herd and trying to learn!

But, with that said know as Haypoint Hiro and others point out about labeling and market preferences or rather brainwashing . Well, ?

You can’t please everyone-that’s a no brainer 

So ours have eaten pumpkins, and some bakery buns, so I guess if we ever label or advertise or sell some of thes, we will have to say,...may have consumed one pumpkin or so every fall that was grown on our land,...& several bakery bins that we over bought and some grandma gave for the cows,... as a treat 4 times a year,..!


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Buns. Not bins! ♥


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I see someone in the goat section that had some third cutting alfalfa that tested at 20% protein. If you could maintain lush pastures and then feed 20% protein hay, I think you could produce some eatable grass fed beef. Here in Michigan, this summer was either too dry or too wet to make much quality hay. The price for quality alfalfa is steep.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Alfalfa hay is expensive and hard to find. 20% protein sounds good. Is that your goal?


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Ours are raised on pasture but in winter we also give orchard grass and sometimes hayledge. We have all breeds of cattle


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

odieclark, some years ago, I needed alfalfa hay for a rescue donkey; I was able to find some at a local dairy.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Grain is about energy. Grain free is the journey to find things to replace that energy.
You don't need the super hot dairy hay. Well made and stored first crop alfalfa or clover will more than likely cover the protein requirements.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Hay has been a challenge, both in growing and purchasing. Two different pieces of land -one, was just wild pasture that horses ran/grazed/walked on, so basically junk soil. Two-had corn on a few years ago and then idle. 

We started a small alfalfa field with moderate results. 
What percent of protein is a goal for beef cattle? Seems what we have tested/grown/found able to purchase was mid teens for protein15-16 %, any with around 20% was very overpriced.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

haypoint said:


> If I told you that cage free hens live longer than caged hens, you'd accept that as true. But in reality, cage free hens death rate is higher than caged birds. I doubt you'd accept that as easily.


Big ag will make these claims to justify more efficient methods of production. Also studies show that caged hens have less stress. Based on this, I raised my kids in a closet. They were happier there.

The biggest problem I have with the high grain diets cattle get in feedlots is that cattle aren't made to eat high carbohydrate diets. Pigs, yes, but not ruminants. The carbohydrate changes the microflora, which produces acid, which causes rumen ulcers, which allow bacteria to enter the bloodstream and infect the liver and other organs. In some feedlots, up to 40% of cattle have liver abscesses. Antibiotics are added to feed to reduce the incidence.

All of this for economics - cheaper to get a pound of gain from grain than forage.

So there is the question of ethics - is it acceptable to make animals sick for economic purposes? And use antibiotics for economic gain?

Not to mention the stress of shipping cattle to the feed yards and resulting illnesses like pneumonia. As my brother who worked in a feedlot once said, you have to have a dead pile to be a real cattleman.

I ran across this article years ago - veterinarians discussing liver abscesses in feedlots. Note that ethics are not discussed. Purely economics. No discussion of reducing the levels of grain in the ration - apparently not an option, because that would affect "performance parameters". We'll accept up to 15% of cattle with abscesses.

https://feedlotmagazine.com/archive/archive/issues/200011/new_v8n6pg89article.html



> *Dr. Perino:* Liver abscesses are usually not the number-one issue on the feedyard manager's mind until he receives a packer complaint. As long as the percent and severity remain within a range that everyone is used to dealing with, it's not an issue. However, the biggest challenge facing cattlemen is how to reduce liver abscess prevalence and still optimize the performance parameters that we currently benchmark. Given our current state of knowledge, I'm not sure we can reduce liver abscesses without losing ground on traditional performance indicators.
> 
> *Dr. Hall:* I know for a fact that packers would like to screen and then discount cattle, or just not buy them, if you have a high incidence of liver abscesses. I believe the incidence of abscesses are reflected in the price of cattle now. According to Dr. Perino, our industry accepts up to 15 percent liver abscessation. The price of cattle is discounted for a 15 percent liver abscess incidence. If you were able to guarantee that your cattle were only going to have one to two percent liver abscessation, you could request from the packer (and probably receive) a premium for your cattle.
> 
> ...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

DJ in WA said:


> Based on this, I raised my kids in a closet. They were happier there.


*an·thro·po·mor·phism *It is common to expect what is desired by humans must be desired by animals or that animals seek the same thing as humans. Jes taint so. Is it that hard to accept that hen mortality is higher for cage free hens than caged hens?



DJ in WA said:


> Not to mention the stress of shipping cattle to the feed yards and resulting illnesses like pneumonia.


Cattle get pneumonia from a respiratory infection. Cattle can no more contract pneumonia from a truck ride than you could contract the common cold by getting a chill.



DJ in WA said:


> So there is the question of ethics - is it acceptable to make animals sick for economic purposes? And use antibiotics for economic gain?


Is it better for an animal to be raised for the single purpose of providing its flesh for me to eat or for that animal to never exist? Bible says I have dominion over all animals. I think you need to pick a side to this argument. If antibiotics reduce inflammation, keep cattle from getting sick, isn't that your goal? You prefer sick animals? I hope not.
Soda pop makes humans less healthy. Is it acceptable to make humans sick for economic purposes?
I don't believe that 6 or 8 weeks of corn silage is causing liver abscesses in cattle. High producing dairy cattle receive lots of grain in lactation without health concerns.
It is hard to instill changes in any business without economic consequences.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Interesting-thoughts to ponder-and many topics in the public conversation these days. Much overdone and exaggerated and perpetuated by the internet and/or media.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I checked with a couple Veterinarians that do feedlot cattle work. The corn will put fat on the liver, not a healthy thing, if you are raising cattle for longevity. They both thought that acid thing and lesions was funny. Maybe, sometimes there is a problem with liver flukes.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

haypoint said:


> I checked with a couple Veterinarians that do feedlot cattle work. The corn will put fat on the liver, not a healthy thing, if you are raising cattle for longevity. They both thought that acid thing and lesions was funny. Maybe, sometimes there is a problem with liver flukes.


Weird that working vets would find liver lesions caused by metabolic acidosis (commonly called grain poisoning) humorous. Any serious cattleman or first year veterinary student would recognize this as a real and all-to-common problem...not only in feedlot cattle, but in brood stock and newly weaned cattle as well. Any ruminants that are fed grain or silage are susceptible. I had a young steer go down with it this year. My doc told me to switch to a light ration of oats and good hay to get him on his feet and then to ship him. Wheat and corn are the worst culprits...oats and barley are the least problematic.

Ruminants are not designed to metabolize a high carbohydrate diet. I don't think any expert in ruminant physiology would dispute that statement. In fact, I attended several lectures by Ohio State's lead nutrition researcher (at Penn State ironically) and this statement was underscored at length and this guy is a big proponent of feeding corn and corn silage. His point was that great care needed to be taken in the feedlot to prevent acidosis and resulting maladies from impacting the bottom line.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gravytrain said:


> Weird that working vets would find liver lesions caused by metabolic acidosis (commonly called grain poisoning) humorous. Any serious cattleman or first year veterinary student would recognize this as a real and all-to-common problem...not only in feedlot cattle, but in brood stock and newly weaned cattle as well. Any ruminants that are fed grain or silage are susceptible. I had a young steer go down with it this year. My doc told me to switch to a light ration of oats and good hay to get him on his feet and then to ship him. Wheat and corn are the worst culprits...oats and barley are the least problematic.


Not that liver lesions are funny, but that people would see it as a common or serious problem struck them as ridiculous. Not common at all. As I said, the high corn diet puts fat on fairly fast and that can lead to fatty livers. Liver flukes is more common in their practice. I've never heard of anyone feeding wheat. Did your Vet say why your steer went down? What feed did you have him on, surely a young steer wouldn't have been on a total corn diet. Right? Was his recommendation for good hay a reflection on what you were feeding him?


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

odieclark said:


> Hay has been a challenge, both in growing and purchasing. Two different pieces of land -one, was just wild pasture that horses ran/grazed/walked on, so basically junk soil. Two-had corn on a few years ago and then idle.
> 
> We started a small alfalfa field with moderate results.
> What percent of protein is a goal for beef cattle? Seems what we have tested/grown/found able to purchase was mid teens for protein15-16 %, any with around 20% was very overpriced.


What are you feeding it to and what are you feeding with it? Dry cows can get by on lower quality feed, a partial feeding of alfalfa along with some low protein forage like wheat straw or dry grass and they'll be all right. Cows nursing calves would take a higher percentage of alfalfa.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Allen W said:


> What are you feeding it to and what are you feeding with it? Dry cows can get by on lower quality feed, a partial feeding of alfalfa along with some low protein forage like wheat straw or dry grass and they'll be all right. Cows nursing calves would take a higher percentage of alfalfa.


All discussions drift, but since this is a topic about feeding beef cattle, on grass, there shouldn't be any open dry cattle. A productive beef cow is either nursing a calf, in the latter terms of a pregnancy or being fattened for slaughter. The term "getting by on lower quality feed", might work for an open dry cow. But when you take the traditional grain feeding out of the diet, replacing it with hay, the quality of hay (and pasture) becomes critical. You don't want cattle to be doing "all right". You want them to be growing as fast as your forage will allow. The longer it takes to grow to market, the lower the quality. Unless you have a big order for round beef.
Grass finished beef should bring a premium and to often costs more to produce. Tested, properly cut, cured, baled and stored, high protein hay is often a component in the production of eatable grass finished beef.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

haypoint said:


> Not that liver lesions are funny, but that people would see it as a common or serious problem struck them as ridiculous. Not common at all.


Very common...docs around here say calls are almost daily, and most of the dairy cases are diagnosed and treated in-house. I will admit that this was my first one in 5 years of grain finishing (20 years of grass finishing), but I feed grain in conjunction with grazing, so my cattle get a high fiber to carbohydrate ratio.



> Liver flukes is more common in their practice.


 Liver flukes are pretty rare to non-existent east of Nebraska, with the exception of the gulf states. 



> I've never heard of anyone feeding wheat.


 Really? Wheat middlings are pretty commonly used in balanced grower rations... Sometimes as high as 40-50% though not in my rations which are normally around 20%. Wheat middlings are high in protein.



> Did your Vet say why your steer went down?


Yes... Liver lesions caused by acidosis. My docs have no prejudice about feeding grain and neither do I...obviously or I wouldn't do it.



> What feed did you have him on, surely a young steer wouldn't have been on a total corn diet. Right?


Right...it's not my first rodeo. He was on pasture as all of my cattle are...in addition to feeding a balanced ration formulated by my nutritionist.



> Was his recommendation for good hay a reflection on what you were feeding him?


 "Good hay" was my term to describe the doc's wish to replace pasture with an appropriate quality replacement. This happened in July when I don't feed hay. "Hay and oats" were my doc's instruction to keep an eye on him, reduce the possibility of exacerbating the acidosis, increasing fiber content of his diet and getting him ready for the sale barn. He had no possibility of being a quality finished steer.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

haypoint said:


> All discussions drift, but since this is a topic about feeding beef cattle, on grass, there shouldn't be any open dry cattle. A productive beef cow is either nursing a calf, in the latter terms of a pregnancy or being fattened for slaughter. The term "getting by on lower quality feed", might work for an open dry cow. But when you take the traditional grain feeding out of the diet, replacing it with hay, the quality of hay (and pasture) becomes critical. You don't want cattle to be doing "all right". You want them to be growing as fast as your forage will allow. The longer it takes to grow to market, the lower the quality. Unless you have a big order for round beef.
> Grass finished beef should bring a premium and to often costs more to produce. Tested, properly cut, cured, baled and stored, high protein hay is often a component in the production of eatable grass finished beef.


Substitute bred cow for dry cow, that's how I should have said it in the example I gave.

vocabulary phrase of the day - compensatory gain


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Gravytrain said:


> Weird that working vets would find liver lesions caused by metabolic acidosis (commonly called grain poisoning) humorous. Any serious cattleman or first year veterinary student would recognize this as a real and all-to-common problem...not only in feedlot cattle, but in brood stock and newly weaned cattle as well. Any ruminants that are fed grain or silage are susceptible. I had a young steer go down with it this year. My doc told me to switch to a light ration of oats and good hay to get him on his feet and then to ship him. Wheat and corn are the worst culprits...oats and barley are the least problematic.
> 
> Ruminants are not designed to metabolize a high carbohydrate diet. I don't think any expert in ruminant physiology would dispute that statement. In fact, I attended several lectures by Ohio State's lead nutrition researcher (at Penn State ironically) and this statement was underscored at length and this guy is a big proponent of feeding corn and corn silage. His point was that great care needed to be taken in the feedlot to prevent acidosis and resulting maladies from impacting the bottom line.



“Weird that working vets would find liver lesions caused by metabolic acidosis (commonly called grain poisoning) humorous. Any serious cattleman or first year veterinary student would recognize this as a real and all-to-common problem...not only in feedlot cattle, but in brood stock and newly weaned cattle as well. Any ruminants that are fed grain or silage are susceptible. I had a young steer go down with it this year. My doc told me to switch to a light ration of oats and good hay to get him on his feet and then to ship him. Wheat and corn are the worst culprits...oats and barley are the least problematic”

Hmm,..Oats and Barley. We have grown oats and have used some for our sheep and goats. Also my laying hens.

Below zero temperatures and the windchill advisories are out here. Very cold.,


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## slingshot (Jun 25, 2014)

This is a very good thread....

I’ll give you my take on it, If you want call the grass fed beef you have to move them. That’s the first step and the biggest in my opinion. 

Fresh grass daily is the ticket, next is the quality of your pastures, some places take 30 acres per cow because the grass density is so low. However here we can do multiple cows per acre. 

Currently we are finishing between 18-20 months on grass. Weaned calf’s are overwintered on high quality hay and hay silage or wrapped bales. We turn them out right about may 1 usually in big paddocks because the grass is washy then. As the grass becomes drier the paddocks shrink therefore stock density goes up. 

All paddocks are temporary because grass conditions dictate size, with a daily move until slaughter which is right about October 1 they average 2.67lbs ADG. Hangin weights are 550-565 pretty consistently. Fat cover and marbling is excellent. 

You cannot tell they are grass finished and that’s my goal. Well you can because the fat is so white lol. Also we use no chemical inputs, no overseeding, plowing, discing, surgum Sudan or any untasseled grain. Only thing we use is....chickens!

High quality grass finished beef that we cannot keep up with the demand for. This is the key to selling grass finished beef it has to be high quality. 
All the normal things still apply, body conditioning score is a big one. Tail head fat is a good indicator of finishing readiness. One of the biggest mistakes producers make is slaughtering cattle when they’re not ready or to lean. Hence the comments about beef that looks like venison. 

It’s not easy but it’s not that hard either. Biggest factor again is your grass and how it’s managed. Not every property can produce 3lbs of gain per day either.

As with anything else your mileage will vary...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

slingshot said:


> This is a very good thread....
> 
> I’ll give you my take on it, If you want call the grass fed beef you have to move them. That’s the first step and the biggest in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Thank you. You have supplied a mountain of valuable information. Hopefully, those considering this method will honestly evaluate their ability to supply everything it takes to grow eatable beef, as you have detailed here. Lush grass in the heat of mid-summer, baleage and silage in winter.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Slingshot-totally awesome! Though as I read your post with windchills in double digit negative numbers, makes me wonder if our growing season is long enough to have the lush pastures?!? Even if we plant all the right grasses, will they have time to mature sufficiently?

What do you mean when you say you only use chickens? Chickens for what? 

We did benefit in our own family garden as we used our chicken manure this year for fertilizer-yeah! (From our laying hens!)


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## slingshot (Jun 25, 2014)

odieclark said:


> Slingshot-totally awesome! Though as I read your post with windchills in double digit negative numbers, makes me wonder if our growing season is long enough to have the lush pastures?!? Even if we plant all the right grasses, will they have time to mature sufficiently?
> 
> What do you mean when you say you only use chickens? Chickens for what?
> 
> We did benefit in our own family garden as we used our chicken manure this year for fertilizer-yeah! (From our laying hens!)


Our grass season is pretty consistently 180 days can we maybe go longer if the weather is warm in the fall sure, but I don't because it's easier to process all the beef by October, this also helps our customers that buy 1/4 and 1/2's budget friendly not too close to the holidays. 


Chickens! Chickens! Chickens! 

What do I mean by chickens.... My laying hen flock follows the cattle. They are the clean up crew, they hit the paddocks 3 days after the cows move. This is precisely when the fly larva are visible in the cow manure. The chickens scratch through the cow pies hunting which incorporates it in to the soil as well as debugging it. 

The entire paddock also gets a top dress of manure from the birds and then they move to the next one, poultry net keeps them where I want them. The birds are trained to roost in converted Haywagon‘s which we move at night into the new paddocks. It’s amazing within a hour you cannot find any cow manure at all. None. That’s good it puts the nutrients where I want them.... in the soil not evaporating into the air from the sun

I also do a few thousand meat birds( that number goes up every year) they are run in chicken tractors across the pastures.Sometimes I let the cattle graze the grass first other times I’ll mow it ahead of them if it gets too long where I need the help on a certain pasture. A lot of times I’ll run them right on the edge of the hedgerows which have the thinnest grass due to the shade. The results are incredible strips of super bright green grass. It’s almost completely weed free then in 50 or 60 days the cattle graze it again and we repeat. 

A flock of turkeys also rotate the pastures for 16 weeks before thanksgiving. The grass loves them too!


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Slingshot—-Wow, this sounds perfect! I love the hens cleaning up concept! 

Oh my gosh, I would love to see this in action! 
( Side note, I was thinking about this a few days ago,...wouldn’t it be cool if we could all go on a field trip and go from farm to farm to see and learn from others operations,...adopt what might work for our own, help make something work better at each visit, etc! ). Of course, reality hit! From Wyoming-to New Zealand -

As you have a net over the hens, then you aren’t concerned about hawks, eagles, etc? They go in at night to roost, so no concern over coyotes, foxes, ****, etc?

Starting your hens as pullets, isn’t that the most expensive way to buy layers? 

Are you able to sell your hens at age 1 1/2?

Do you get snow? Sub zero temperatures?

Great plan! Thank you for sharing!


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## slingshot (Jun 25, 2014)

No net above the chickens they use the wagons as cover, if a hawk comes over they go underneath. Coyotes can’t get through high tensile and netting. 

Pullets is actually the cheapest option... costs about $11 dollars to raise a day old chick to laying age. I get pullets delivers to my farm for $6.75 each! Not worth raising them when they are that price. 

Yes I’m able to sell all the birds at 1 1/2 easily. In the spring time there is much demand for backyard laying hens so I mostly sell them on Craigslist. $15 each or $120 for ten. This year I sold the entire flock in 8 days, it’s important to note they are not clipped which raises their value significantly. 

I’m in upstate NY so lots of snow and cold right now it’s -3F. The solution for this is I winter the chickens over in a greenhouse. The waterers say thawed all day from the solar energy and they have heaters for night time so they don’t freeze. Also keeps the eggs from freezing. We use deep letter in the greenhouse that the chickens spend the winter composting then we use it on the fruit trees and gardens, the rest is spread on the fields. In the spring we plant it.


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## slingshot (Jun 25, 2014)

odieclark said:


> Slingshot—-Wow, this sounds perfect! I love the hens cleaning up concept!
> 
> Oh my gosh, I would love to see this in action!
> ( Side note, I was thinking about this a few days ago,...wouldn’t it be cool if we could all go on a field trip and go from farm to farm to see and learn from others operations,...adopt what might work for our own, help make something work better at each visit, etc! ). Of course, reality hit! From Wyoming-to New Zealand -
> ...


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Grass fed beef is big in Kansas and, yes, they were delicious. Keep in mind, grass here can grow taller than a cow in some areas, especially the Flint Hills regions. 100 years ago, everyone ate grass fed beef because there weren't any other alternatives. Simply stated, grass fed beef tends to be lean meat and requires a longer cooking time sometimes. We've gone through cycles of drought/plenty of rain/somewhere in between so how many acres per cow varies. I don't raise cattle but hope to do so some day at some point. We have to contend with bitter cold weather and tornado weather, etc.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Ted, I have heard that about Kansas with the wide open prairies, and long grasses-open fields! It sounds endless and maybe the growing season is better or longer than here? Not sure, but interesting comments on the leaness and longer cooking times required. We just got back our first from the butcher and believe what we have is some very lean beef, based on its appearance! I am hoping that is what customers desire, but if lean isn’t what the customer wants-then perhaps we need to make some changes-assuming this is representative of what we might get from them...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

odieclark said:


> Ted, I have heard that about Kansas with the wide open prairies, and long grasses-open fields! It sounds endless and maybe the growing season is better or longer than here? Not sure, but interesting comments on the leaness and longer cooking times required. We just got back our first from the butcher and believe what we have is some very lean beef, based on its appearance! I am hoping that is what customers desire, but if lean isn’t what the customer wants-then perhaps we need to make some changes-assuming this is representative of what we might get from them...


I would love to hear the taste results from you and your customers. Kroger found it to be a novelty but no repeat purchases. Most pasture I've seen are far too sparse to insure rapid growth and many cattle raising regions require lots of hay. Buying or producing very high quality hay is costly.
Buffalo burger has been available for decades, but I've only seen it sold as ground up. Must be a reason Bison roasts are ground up and sold a buffalo burger.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

There is a reason why I committed in an earlier post that I would have a small window in which to finish and butcher a grass fed beef. I would be relaying on Warm Season Native Grass, not as lush as what grows in the Flint Hills but it still has the same growth pattern. That growth pattern is that it grows fast and nutritious with good protein content in the warming spring days. Starting in about mid June the protein content begins to drop by early July protein has dropped as the grass matures to where stocker calves will respond positively to added protein in their diet. 

In the past we've butchered two year old heifers that had lost a calf of grass in early June and you couldn't tell them from grain fed.

I cringe every fall when I see all the grass fed beef adds on craigslist after the grass is way past its prime.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen W said:


> In the past we've butchered two year old heifers that had lost a calf of grass in early June and you couldn't tell them from grain fed.
> 
> I cringe every fall when I see all the grass fed beef adds on craigslist after the grass is way past its prime.



This is key for finishing on forage...always butcher animals on improving pastures, which for most of us is in May/June. 

Forget about guys selling grass finished in the fall...there are guys around here selling "grass finished" beef right now with 5 feet of snow on the ground. It's frustrating to those of us selling quality grass finished beef...


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Gravytrain said:


> This is key for finishing on forage...always butcher animals on improving pastures, which for most of us is in May/June.
> 
> Forget about guys selling grass finished in the fall...there are guys around here selling "grass finished" beef right now with 5 feet of snow on the ground. It's frustrating to those of us selling quality grass finished beef...


Once the consumer is burned on some grass fed shoe leather they're not going to take a chance on grass fed beef again.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

Posted 2 days ago

*Grass fed beef - $4 (Dewittville) *


We have grass fed beef for sale that will be going to the butcher in February. We need to get the last 1/2 of him sold either as a half or two quarters. We are asking $4 per pound hanging weight and we are paying for the processing. He will be processed and USDA stamped. If you have any questions, call or email Dixon at Sunset Ridge Farm. We will require a deposit to hold your portion. Thanks!

do NOT contact me with unsolicited services or offers


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I had to check craigslist here they will use 'grass fed' on about any thing here. I like it best when the show a picture of the animal standing in dead grass or a bare corral.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Good one Allen!

The terminology is very lose, and consumers are sold on terminology-until they taste it or have to pay for it!

I feel grass fed is a fad, and while it might be considered healthier, well I guess I really don’t have the facts on that-BUT, because it’s healthier, does that stop people from buying or eating things that are less healthy? 

What about BACON? 

Americans love Bacon and last time I checked, they also Love BEEF! We have lamb and goats as well, but everyone asks us, when will you have beef? Did you ever try convincing someone to eat goat? Do you know how small a goat chop is? Goat is healthier than most common meats, but goats are tiny!

I started this post as honestly I don’t know how to best finish beef, and we are new and learning. Open to ideas and all, and also have done similarly with Goat and lamb. Goat and lamb have had some grain, unlike the cattle however.

The verdict is still out for us and we are anxious to learn how the meat turns out.


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## slingshot (Jun 25, 2014)

odieclark said:


> Good one Allen!
> 
> The terminology is very lose, and consumers are sold on terminology-until they taste it or have to pay for it!
> 
> ...


Hears a little insight how decided to finish animals... 

When I first started with beef , I decided to give them a 1% per day grain raition. That's 1% per pound of body weight per head per day, so 500lb steer 5lbs/day. This is in addition to rotational grazing. This creates incredible beef. 

As my second season got under way my methods became better as my pastures we looking great, and so were the cattle. With cracked corn at $9+ per 50lb bag I was spending more and more on corn. I sent a few steers for processing and they had plenty, actually too much fat which hurt the yeild on the final cuts. Too much trim. 

I had just started a heifer for personal use and decided to see what happened if I just didn't give her any grain. And the result was far better than I thought, she hung 605# @ 15 1/2 months old! I didn’t need to keep her any longer she was finished and looked spectacular so I sent her. The end result was excellent beef, as good or better than the animals we finished on grain with out the additional cost. 

The other positive was I now captured more customers, before I still had customers but when asked I was honest and told them about the daily grain ration. I would say somewhere between 30-40% of people I talked to said sounds great but we only eat grass fed animals. I understand that will vary greatly based on location and all sorts of other things, anyway it’s far easier to sell a properly finished steak to someone that’s thinks grass fed may not be better than it is to try and convert a grass fed only customer. The reason is simple.....quality 

The grass fed folks love the product because it’s the best beef they’ve had and the rest love it because it’s just as good as the beef they are used to, win-win. 

There more benefit to catering to the grass fed market as well. They create more customers because they are passionate about it, and will tell everyone they know. The second is price, we are able to justify the additional labor because it commands a higher price.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Very well done! No, I actually prefer my meat more rare to medium rare actually-which I don’t know if the way the animal is fed out, of rare versus well done matters in customer satisfaction or not,...but, certainly customers being pleased and sold on the method-being grass fed-enthusiastic-telling others -it really is all word of mouth! The best sales tool ever!!!

So, I can say that we have had a similar experience on our lamb, after giving out free samples at a local summer water event, sold lamb burgers and various cuts because of the FREE COOKED SAMPLE GIVEN Out, well, a few comments came back as, the BESTLamb ever!!!, Anither who said he would only buy imported lamb from Australia or New Zealand, is now converted to only out American lamb, and YES has been a big proponent for spreading the word on our lamb!

So, what you know & have experience with in your beef is what we hope to be able to achieve. ♥. Goals,.. However, I am confident we aren’t there yet on the beef. But, we are trying to learn and I am taking notes on what is shared here...Thank You!♥


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## M88A1 (May 21, 2012)

summer time pasture, winter time hay baled from our property. grained as a treat in winter (about 1lb coffee can per cow)


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

odieclark said:


> Did you ever try convincing someone to eat goat?


A friend was milking goats and had no market for the males. He solved his dilemma when he discovered a demand for venison jerky........


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I think the words "pasture" or "grass" are just too broad to be of any actual use. If there are some blades of brown vegetation, that's pasture. If the field hasn't been touched in twenty years, but it turns green in the spring, that's grass. Any experienced beef farmer can tell when his stock are growing well. It takes enough feed to satisfy rapid growth. If you've had plenty of rain on your fertile land thick with quality forage, you don't need grain. But after peak growth, or the dock and wild carrot takes over, you'd better have the grain bucket handy. Seasoned farmers can see the difference in quality hay. Some folks couldn't tell the difference between a fescue and an arugula.
I think most get into trouble when they make promises to themselves that their pasture can't fulfill. You can't catch back up after a steer has been feeding on weeds for a few weeks. Cattle change slowly. If you don't have an eye for daily growth, you'd better order some corn.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Haypoint, I love your matter of fact responses! Jerky, oh you are correct, that is a hit! Yet to try it on goat, but on cheaper meats in the deli and meat markets jerky of cheap meat goes at a very high price around here! 

We offered cut up lam burger hamburgers at a boat show and ended up selling lamb burgers! I am thinking this year we must try the goats for free goat burger samples!


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