# Very standoffish horse



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I've had Zippy for about a month now. Prior to getting her I'd done about 8 months of daily ground work with other horses at my neighbor's stable and prior to that had very little horse experience. I've only ridden a little, here and there, over the years.

Zippy is 8 and a very quiet horse. She's very standoffish. When she's in the herd, she's always off by herself. She's not affectionate with horses or people. She has never had a buddy. Catching her always takes some time. She's the last horse to come up to me and, even when she does, she'll come up for a sniff or a treat and then retreat. I have to walk around petting and playing with all of the other horses and wait for her to come up to me. Then, often, as soon as I try to put the lead rope around her neck, she takes off.

I don't always work her when I catch her. Often, I'll bring her in and give her some oats and hay, brush her, let her relax in a stall for a while, and let her go. She has to be in for quite some time before I can see her relaxing, and only then does she enjoy being scratched. 

She's just soooooo slow to warm up to me - every single time. It's like starting over every time I bring her in. She gets insulted extremely easily. I have to use a soft voice with her and move quietly or she sticks her head in a corner. 

I've been doing lots of ground work with her and building up to riding her. I started riding about a week ago, just walking around in the arena. Yesterday I decided to go ahead and trot her and didn't want to do that in the big arena so brought her into the back barn which is about the size of a round pen. I put the saddle on her and got on and she wouldn't move. When I tried to flex her neck from the saddle she made like she was going to bite my legs. She didn't actually try to bite but acted lilke she was going to. Only with considerable nagging was I able to get her to walk. She was just being a snot, so I longed her. Whenever I'd stop, she'd stick her head in a corner. I can't believe how long I had to longe her before I got her to turn in to me and pay attention to me. Then I got on and trotted her around a few times and got off to end on a good note.

Is there anything I can do to bond with this horse? If I can't bond with her, can I make her listen better?

ETA: The good thing about her standoffishness is she doesn't get buddy sour, herd sour, or barn sour. I've taken her out and led her down the road a mile or so and she really didn't act like she wanted to run back to the barn at all.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I have a big gelding that had problems that sounds exactly like what you are going thru . He has his own way and it took me a long time to connect with him but I got it done ,Almost 6 months to get him to come out of his shell and when he did it was like someone turned on his switch and he has become my favorite ride today , What I did worked for me it may or may not work for someone else but I invested serious time with him asking nothing other than to have him with me all day every day for months ,I would bring him out early in the morning and he would stay with me all day within 20-30 feet .if I was on the tractor or in the garden I had him close by and laid hands on him for what seemed a hundred times a day .I'd rub him down and pick up his feet 20 times a day until he finally accepted me .All I can think is he was never allowed to become close to anyone or any other horses and now he is one of the first at the gate . Give it time ! you'll work it out eventually . Or never .


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Is your friend helping you with this and is this a well trained horse or a horse that needs some work or additional training?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The aloofness is just some horses personality and it may never change. It's only been a month so her attitude could soften- just keep catching her when you're not going to work her and then brush her or give her a treat. I wouldn't handle the mare all day long for months- I can't see where it would serve any purpose at all.

The snottiness while flexing could be a pain/stiffness issue. Was it only to one side, or both? 

What did this mare do before you bought her? What is her training?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wr my friend is helping me with it and I'm looking for additional insight. My friend thinks she's a great horse and says she was just in a crabby moody yesterday and she feels like she'll come around in time. I just want to find a way to get her to come around faster.

Irish Pixie - she has been snotty with flexing both sides since the day I first started working her, from the ground or the saddle. She knows what she's supposed to do and she does it, she just has an attitude about it. She briefly resists and then she flings her head back like "fine - I'll do it". 

Her history is that something happened to her when she was a baby. She has a huge scar running across her front, kind of where her neck meets her shoulders. It runs from shoulder to shoulder. She was adopted when she was 8 months old, already had the scar by then. It looks like it's from barbed wire. She got a lot of training, was trained by a 4-H girl for a while. Then the girl kind of lost interest and Zippy was bred, had one baby who is now 2 years old. After being bred she was free-leased for a while to someone who was doing clicker training and riding her. She only every had 2 homes before I got her.

My friend recommended her to me because she's a very quiet, gentle horse and responds best to a soft hand. I'm a quietish, rather gentle person around horses and she knew Zippy wouldn't push me around. Zippy does not push boundaries at all. She's also very level-headed. She's not spooky. When I've been leading her around, she'll raise her head and prick her ears forward at something she's scared of and all I have to do with her is stand and breathe until she calms down, then let her check the object out. Even near a huge, blowing, tarp she's OK. With people it seems to be another matter, though. I was talking rather animatedly with a friend while I was standing near her and moving my hands a lot. Then she wouldn't let me catch her for a while, because I had been swinging my hands around.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

It sounds like she needs a bit of a refresher on ground manners actually. That sticking her head in the corner means she is showing you her rear, not so friendly. As far as that goes, yes, work her and make her turn towards you and give you her attention before she gets to rest a bit. She'll learn pretty quickly not to give you her rear. If you are too soft about that, she will get more sour, not less. (I'm thinking along the lines of Clinton Anderson there.) She could use some proper desensitizing too - shouldn't be put off by waving your hands, but should just accept that people do that. The more you try to keep her from being upset or afraid, the more you encourage it, I'm afraid! Be sure you are matter of fact and be in charge of her, don't let her be in charge of you. She won't hate you if you correct her for being sour (turning away from you rather than towards you) and you will be a lot more safe. Ask your friend about this, she's there to see what's happening.

As far as the giving her head and flexing, she might have a pain issue, I'm not too sure how to find out, maybe a Chiropractor? Once you rule out pain, just keep working her until she gives properly on both sides each time you work her - do a lot of it until you are bored to death and she gives promptly and easily. Don't bother to correct her there, just keep doing it until she gets it right. 

She might also be a mare that gets "marish" a bit and gets crabby during her heats, that's pretty common. She still has to behave herself though.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm always worried she's going to hate me if I correct her. Sometimes in the arena I'll get off and let her stand there while I go talk to someone and, when I go to catch her, she won't let me. My friend say "if she's going to move, make her move" and has me chase her around the arena until she pays attention to me. Then she just comes up to me of her own accord. I know that's normal horse behavior but it makes no sense to me. 

Do you think she might benefit from being kept in a stall when it's really busy in the stable? It seems like that would desensitize her to people's movements pretty fast.

My friend said her teeth feel like they're out of alignment and they need floating. We'll be doing that soon. Until then, we're using a side pull rather than a bit. Maybe the side pull pushes her cheeks against her teeth a little bit.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

You're heading for a wreck if you won't discipline your horse because it might not be your buddy.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm not up to date on the clicker and natural horsemanship stuff but don't many of them "send the horse away" all the time? She may have been taught to keep away from people. 

I absolutely agree with your friend- if the mare won't let you catch her make her work until she stops and faces you. Eventually, she will walk up to you to avoid working. Make sure you praise her for any "give" she makes in the process.

The possible pain/stiffness issue, you can have a chiropractor check her but I'd start by stretching for treats. Stand at her side and make her bend her neck back for a treat, do the other side the same way, plus make her bend as much as she can between her front legs for one too. It could be permanent pain/stiffness due to the injury tho and may never get better. 

She's not going to hate you if you correct her. You two are not equals, you are the alpha mare, remember that.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

As wr said, you can't afford to think that way. Your horse, who weighs nearly half a ton, needs to respect you. You could get badly hurt, she is not a lap dog. 

She won't hate you any more than a kid hates a parent that sets limits and enforces them, she will be more comfortable if you make her behave and give her limits. Your friend was right, the boss horse makes the lower horses move their feet and pay attention to them, you need to be the boss. She is already sulky with you because you DON'T do what you need to do, it will get worse, the behaviors you think of "she hates me" will escalate without proper leadership on your part, not get less. If you won't be firm (and DO get help with a knowledgeable friend or trainer and believe them!), you should just sell her and be without a horse before you ruin her.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Stop thinking of her as your friend and start thinking of her as a horse.

You're not being mean to correct her when she's "rude". If you were a herd mare and she did it, you'd chase her, bite her or even kick her to tell her it was unacceptable. Human "corrections" are exceedingly polite compared to that. By not correcting or "feeling bad" for her, you're actually telling her "It's okay, you can act bad, that's what you should do".

Proof that she is a fairly well adjusted horse is that she DOES come up after you've chased her. She understands correction, she just needs more work.

Desensitizing her should also happen during all normal times. If waving your hands spooks her, then you can do it a little bit until she's bored and no longer notices, then start doing it a bit more(like raising your hands to begin with, then raise and move them to the sides, then maybe faster, then maybe waving, etc etc). 

Some horses just aren't best buds, but you've only had her a short time so it will take some extra time.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I know, wr. I know a girl who absolutely refuses to discipline her horse or allow anybody else to discipline her, either. The horse has actually reared up and deliberately landed on a person once. My friend is a ferrier and the horse rears when she tries to do her feet, and the owner throws a hissy fit if my friend tries to correct the horse. So - my brain knows horses absolutely must be disciplined. It's just hard for me to do it because my heart wants to bond with the horse. 

I'll do whatever I need to do. Every once in a while I just need some reassurance and advice.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Irish Pixie, I like the stretching for treats idea. 

Horse people are different from most of the people I know. In general, when I'm working with horse people, they tend to hint around and think I got the hint. They're not very direct. Unfortunately, I'm awful at taking hints.

My friend has probably tried to tell me many things but I don't "hear" her. That's why I like to come on a forum - because you can't hint around, you have to actually say the words and I'm more likely to get it.

So - I've been trying to ask my horse woman friend how often I should bring Zippy in and work with her. Is every day too often? Twice a day? If I keep going out and catching her is she going to become even more resistant to catching?


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Sounds like growing pains for you, as a horseman. Many a horse-lover-turned-horse-owner has experienced the disappointment of learning that horses do not "do unto others". That you cannot gain a horse as a friend by simply being a friend to them in "people ways". The VAST majority of horses out there will respect and seek fair leadership and avoid people who allow themselves to be treated disrespectfully. They actually feel uncomfortable around people who are wish-washy.

A horse has to be extremely self-confident to be able to tolerate associating with people who do not exhibit the kind of leadership that the horse needs.

Don't take it too personally. It isn't about becoming a different person on the inside. It is about learning to conduct yourself in a way that the horse can understand. Learning to speak the horse's language. 

Something that may help you understand the difference between people and horses is to think about human language and just how often we speak in metaphors and use similies. We constantly compare one thing to another. We link things to other things. Horses do not. They are 100% here and now.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

This is a difficult issue to answer over the internet, and especially for you as a new horse owner. Because it sounds like it is probably a variety of issues that are separate from each other, but very difficult to know for sure from afar.

I have a horse that is standoffish with other horses - she is typically alone when turned out, and doesn't seem to like the others and vice versa. But she is not standoffish with humans - they are not necessarily the same thing. I have another mare that is standoffish with humans - she doesn't like petting or cuddling, hates to be groomed, and the biggest reward you can ever give her is to leave her alone. But she is very social with the herd and hates to be alone. So the fact that your mare is standoffish with other horses doesn't necessarily mean that what she is doing with you is standoffish temperament -- it could be fear of being worked, pain, or bad attitude. This is definitely where another set of eyes would help a lot.

I also find that many horses will try to get away from you if they suspect you want to work them. Some are worse than others; but that particular behavior is not abnormal. Rather than chase horses like this down, I would try to work them if possible after they are either stalled or penned close by. (For example, can you bring her in and give her a flake of hay in her stall, then work her?) That way you are not chasing a horse around a pasture.

As far as correction - if you are patient, but firm, a correction should be upsetting or scary to a horse. It's just helping them figure out what you want. When a horse does what you want, and gets reinforcement for that (removing a pressure, a "good girl", a pat) - it's no longer a "correction" but a positive response from you. So make sure you're asking for things your horse *can* do correctly, so that it can get that positive reinforcement. That way *work* isn't always seen as *hard*. 

All horses are different so you have to feel them out a little; I have one that needs very little in the form of correction and more in the form of reinforcement. She senses anxiety and frustration very easily and it makes her anxious. She also needs to know that you are in charge or she will take advantage of you. She's a little tougher to work with because of this, but it's because she's super smart and therefore can give the best ride. 

My warmblood mare is the absolute opposite - you could carry a 2x4 and beat her with it, and she wouldn't be upset. Nor would she work any harder for you. 

So be patient and figure out what kind of horse you have...they are all a bit of a puzzle. Definitely seek out help from a trainer if you have the chance to see if they get a different response from her than you do - that can help you figure out how much of this is her temperament and how much of it is your leadership.

Good luck!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

It IS disappointing. Other animals love you when you love them - horses, not so much. It's hard not to take it personally.

What you say makes a lot of sense, though, jennigrey, because my friend doesn't have any trouble catching Zippy. She's had horses for over 30 years, so I know that she knows what she's doing. I can't imitate it very well but she's very firm and demands respect from the horses. She's a lot more gentle with Zippy than with any of the others, though. She's known Zippy for years and she says she once slapped a fly off Zip's bottom and it was weeks before the horse forgave her! She's a horse that holds a grudge.

I'lm going over there in a bit and putting Zip in a stall before they get busy with their evening chores. We're planning to make a whole lot of noise around her. No more *****footing around. Lots of loud laughing and animated gestures are in store tonight.

Offthegrid - Zip's very favorite thing is to just be left alone. She does seem to be warming up a little, at times. Sometimes she's in pure heaven when she's getting scratched - but it doesn't make her more willing to be caught. I have been bringing her into a stall and giving her hay every time before I work her. Yesterday, I didn't. She was indignant LOL.

I don't ask much of her - nothing she hasn't done before. All I want her to do is be caught and walk and trot under saddle. Well - I guess that's not true, because I'm already getting that from her. What I _want_ is for her to do it willingly and without attitude.

My husband got a horse recently, too. His name is Al. A great big beautiful foundation gelding with lots of good training. My neighbor actually owned him before, and he'd had professional training before she got him and then her daughter did a lot with him. They sold him because they had too many horses and immediately wished they had him backl. When my husband said he wanted a horse, they said "what a coincidence, Al is back up for sale." The girl who bought him from them a few years back turned 16 and decided boys were a lot more interesting than horses and her mom sold him because he wasn't getting used. In the meantime, her mom was stuck taking care of him and she's just a tiny timid little thing, not even 100 lbs. She was clearly intimidated by him. She let him walk all over her and he's needed an attitude adjustment since he got back. 

Al is different from Zippy, though. He's easy. We've been sending him away and bringing him back in and we have had to shake the lead pretty forcefully to send him away. We have to get pretty firm about making him stay out of our personal space. The more firm we get, the nicer and easier to work with he gets. Licking, chewing, acting relaxed and docile. Still in our pockets . . . . . but improving and not mugging. With Zippy - the more firm we get, the further she wants to get away from us. She pouts and acts insulted. 

So she sounds like the one you're talking about, Offthegrid. If you have one who needs less correction and more reinforcement - how do you do that without seeming too weak or wishy washy? I suppose we have all the time in the world to figure it out.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

fffarmergirl said:


> I don't ask much of her - nothing she hasn't done before. All I want her to do is be caught and walk and trot under saddle. Well - I guess that's not true, because I'm already getting that from her. What I _want_ is for her to do it willingly and without attitude.
> 
> Al is different from Zippy, though. He's easy. We've been sending him away and bringing him back in and we have had to shake the lead pretty forcefully to send him away. We have to get pretty firm about making him stay out of our personal space. The more firm we get, the nicer and easier to work with he gets. Licking, chewing, acting relaxed and docile. Still in our pockets . . . . . but improving and not mugging. With Zippy - the more firm we get, the further she wants to get away from us. She pouts and acts insulted.
> 
> So she sounds like the one you're talking about, Offthegrid. If you have one who needs less correction and more reinforcement - how do you do that without seeming too weak or wishy washy? I suppose we have all the time in the world to figure it out.


Well, first I don't know what the purpose of sending away and bringing a horse back in is -- are you doing that with both of them? I would probably just reconsider what you want from these exercises and what you are getting.

If you are using exercises like this to get willingness and "partnership" from your horse, you may never get it; or you may not *see* it from their body language. Some horses are not going to be your cheerful buddy; but that doesn't mean they are not being good.

If the exercises have another purpose, I'd just make sure you are being clear on what it is, and what your horse should do to get "rewarded". And by rewarded, in many cases it is to be done with that exercise. 

When I first started riding my TB mare (who had been a broodmare for 8 years) I would lunge her before riding to get her brain working and her to listen to me. My goal in lunging was to get her to respond to my commands like walk and whoa, because she was always very quick to trot when we would start riding. Ultimately I could get her to go from a trot to a walk to a whoa in one lap of the lunge line. And if she did - she was done. After that, I stopped lunging her before I rode because it didn't serve a purpose (she knew how to lunge, she knew vocal commands, it was just "busywork" for her.)

As far as her being "willing" under saddle - again, review what you want. You may not get a horse that trucks along with ears up and happy swishing tail -ever. Or maybe not for a while. If she is going forward, that's a good thing. Work on transitions to get a nice, prompt departure to your trot, and back to your walk. Practice these, and when you get nice ones, call it a good day and be done. Then set a new goal -- maybe working on nice bending as well as nice transitions, and extend your schooling session to include both.

She may not be pouting or offended, just confused, or bored. That's ok, as long as her behavior isn't *bad* (bucking, refusing, etc.). She may change eventually, or maybe never. Not all horses are friendly and fun - but if they do what you ask, they are still useful. 

I remember watching a TV series a long time ago about the Maclay Medals or something, and they gave fun facts about the riders and horses. One of the horses was described as having "absolutely no personality." But he was extremely talented despite having no personality.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

You have the horse on a lead and make him back up all the way to the end of the lead rope, then invite him back to you but make him stop outside of your personal space. It's a way of teaching boundaries. Also it's a good way to get them to back up in case of an emergency. The reward is that, when they get to the end of the rope, you stop shaking it. Supposedly, eventually all you have to do is shake a finger and they'll back away and they'll learn not to enter your personal space unless asked. I don't have to worry about that with Zippy - she isn't the least bit pushy and she backs away easily. Too easily. If I shook her lead rope at her she'd give me the evil eye, LOL. She gives this look that says "I am a princess, not an indentured servant, and I expect to be treated as such." You know . . . . now that I think of it, it's kind of the look my mother gave me when I got lippy, just before she gave me the silent treatment . . . . the horse is training me!

I've been watching the AQHA video "fundamentals of horsemanship" every once in a while since I started with the horses. Every month or two I watch it again and understand a little more of it. It's all stuff that every experienced horse person knows, it's just laid out in a very clear way. It's helping me to understand some things. The sending away thing is on that a lot and I've seen my neighbor do it when a horse was getting too pushy. She's old school, not really into the natural horsemanship stuff. You start out shaking the rope hard, like a snake.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Well, first I don't know what the purpose of sending away and bringing a horse back in is -- are you doing that with both of them? I would probably just reconsider what you want from these exercises and what you are getting.


I don't understand what it is either, but apparently one of the natural horsemanship people do it. 

Does anyone know why?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't understand what it is either, but apparently one of the natural horsemanship people do it.
> 
> Does anyone know why?


I don't _think_ it's a natural horsemanship thing. Maybe?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I think to get them paying attention and staying out of your personal space. If your horse isn't pushy, its probably not needed very often. 

I think, fffarmergirl, that it is very likely you got it - she is training you! I'd say ignore the attitude, get what you want (with no more pressure than necessary), then give her space for her reward, if space is what she wants. Chances are she will warm up and bond more as time goes by and you learn what works with her. 

Find the spots she LOVES to be scratched on, that helps! With Star it was under her chest in front for one. If your mare is still stiff/uncomfortable on her neck, maybe she'd like a deep massage sometimes. You can do things she likes, just be really thoughtful about whether your timing is causing those things to be a reward for her current behavior and is that what you want to reward? Whatever you reward will be repeated and get stronger. I do think you will figure it out, hopefully your friend can help you.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Sending a horse away and bringing him back is a very basic way of "making him move his feet". Mister "P" teaches it. It is often recommended because it is very simple and easy for beginning horsemen to grasp. The way "P" teaches it, there are no nuances of body language to have to read on the horse. It does not require the student horseman to let go of the lead rope. It keeps energy levels low. It is pretty safe and basic. 

Like any groundwork exercise, it can be overdone to the point of souring the horse. And some resent repetition. I have been told it's an Icelandic trait (though I am very resistant to the notion that any particular personality quirk is a "breed" thing) but the Icelandic we have here HATES repetition. If he does an exercise correctly twice in a row, it's time to discontinue it and do something different. Doing it more times in a row makes him surly. Sure, they have to suck it up and do what you ask, but he will do it with an increasingly grumpy demeanor. The others don't like to be asked to do the same thing over and over either, but they aren't so sensitive about it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mister "P" is the worst of them, in my opinion.

I can see if a horse won't be caught to push it away and make it move until being caught is the easier thing to do, but why send them to the end of a lead rope? That would get old in a hurry and is rather stupid, again my opinion. 

Which is the reason that I'm an out of work horse farmer and he sells millions of gimmicky gadgets every year.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't know who Mister "P" is . . . is he the one with the "P" games? Why can't we say his name? Is it kind of like Voldemort? LOL

What do you do to keep a horse out of your personal space?

ETA I watched a Clinton Anderson video once - he was teaching a person to ride a horse for the first time. He had her do something similar to keep the horse out of her space. He had her walk toward the horse swinging a stick back and forth to make it back away from her, then she did something to make it come to her. I can't remember what. Anyway - either method eventually teaches the horse to back away when you shake a finger at it, right?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It's Pat Parelli. 

I stop them, back them up and use my arm to keep them off me, if that doesn't work an elbow usually does.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> I think to get them paying attention and staying out of your personal space. If your horse isn't pushy, its probably not needed very often.


I seldom use a halter or lead rope around home. Mostly my horses come when I call, follow where I lead, obey verbal commands and some hand gestures. But occasionally a horse will decline to obey, for whatever reason. So a couple times a year I will have to put any particular horse through a refresher course of "remedial leading" with a rope halter and lead rope. We work on position, stopping, starting, backing, keeping pace. Lots of changes of direction and speed. They have to pay very close attention, as any small infraction is grounds for chastisement. The lesson may last five minutes or thirty. 

I think that one of my horses finds it particularly humbling. Maybe even demeaning/embarrassing. All I know is that after we have our little schooling session, she seems chagrined and exhibits lowered spirits for a few days. My horses are all "advanced students" and when they get busted all the way back to kindergarten, they know they've done wrong. I don't make them work on leading exercises for no reason because it's a skill they already know inside and out. I only make them work on it when they demonstrate that they need a refresher.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

fffarmergirl said:


> I don't know who Mister "P" is . . . is he the one with the "P" games? Why can't we say his name? Is it kind of like Voldemort? LOL


You nailed it. 

Sometimes even the most civilized horse-people will get riled up when the conversation turns to that fellow.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

fffarmergirl said:


> You have the horse on a lead and make him back up all the way to the end of the lead rope, then invite him back to you but make him stop outside of your personal space. It's a way of teaching boundaries. Also it's a good way to get them to back up in case of an emergency. The reward is that, when they get to the end of the rope, you stop shaking it. Supposedly, eventually all you have to do is shake a finger and they'll back away and they'll learn not to enter your personal space unless asked. I don't have to worry about that with Zippy - she isn't the least bit pushy and she backs away easily. Too easily. If I shook her lead rope at her she'd give me the evil eye, LOL. She gives this look that says "I am a princess, not an indentured servant, and I expect to be treated as such." You know . . . . now that I think of it, it's kind of the look my mother gave me when I got lippy, just before she gave me the silent treatment . . . . the horse is training me!
> 
> I've been watching the AQHA video "fundamentals of horsemanship" every once in a while since I started with the horses. Every month or two I watch it again and understand a little more of it. It's all stuff that every experienced horse person knows, it's just laid out in a very clear way. It's helping me to understand some things. The sending away thing is on that a lot and I've seen my neighbor do it when a horse was getting too pushy. She's old school, not really into the natural horsemanship stuff. You start out shaking the rope hard, like a snake.


Ehhh.....I'd probably skip it. Especially if it's not working for a particular horse. I think my horses would not enjoy this game, but then again, my horses aren't *in* my personal space much...depending on the meaning of that.

When the horse is "in your space" - when is that, and what does he/she do? E.g. are you leading the horse somewhere and they push you into the gate because they don't remember to give you space, or do they mug you for treats, or is it something else?

To be honest, if one of my horses got "in my space" I'd probably pop them on the nose with the leadrope rather than shake it at them.  But if you are working on more advanced groundwork like showmanship, then maybe there are different uses for these exercises. 

Lunging is always a useful skill because then you can assess them for lameness, so I'd probably move from basic groundwork to lunging, especially if you're not getting good results. Lunging translates better to riding because you can use the same verbal cues for upward and downward transitions.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

I would tend to agree, basic ground work and then lunging.

If you're using a trick like this sending away with a shaken leadrope without really understanding why you're doing it, there's no way to know the timing of it is right. If you don't know what you want out of the exercise, the horse is bound to become confused.

I would bet that working with her consistently and asking her to do various things, rewarding when she preforms and making her do them if she tries to act up, you would see an improvement.

There's plenty of experienced people here to give you good pointers. Working with your friend who obviously has the horses in hand will also be a good thing. Have her watch you work the horse without her participating in the exercises. That way she can correct you when you do something wrong, and hopefully tell you why.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> Horse people are different from most of the people I know. In general, when I'm working with horse people, they tend to hint around and think I got the hint. They're not very direct. Unfortunately, I'm awful at taking hints.
> 
> My friend has probably tried to tell me many things but I don't "hear" her. That's why I like to come on a forum - because you can't hint around, you have to actually say the words and I'm more likely to get it.
> 
> So - I've been trying to ask my horse woman friend how often I should bring Zippy in and work with her. Is every day too often? Twice a day? If I keep going out and catching her is she going to become even more resistant to catching?


You mentioned in a previous thread that you don't take hints well but part of horsemanship is learning the subtle nuances and you're going to have to start training yourself to hear hints because horses because if a horse is past the subtle stage, you have a big problem. 

Those hints are suggestions but horses don't all respond to the same thing so you have to learn to read your horse and that comes from listening to the subtle hints and use suggestions that make sense to you and your horse.

You keep mentioning you need to work with this horse. Is there a specific problem you're, other than aloof you're working on or are you just of the opinion that a horse your friend considers well trained needs to be retrained or fine tuned in some way? My concern with you retraining or fine tuning is that the horse is still reasonably you and your not at a level where you should be training and may very well be teaching some bad habits.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Sometimes I think the personal space thing is way overdone. For example: you want your horse to come to you, have a bond with you and enjoy working for you, BUT you put a halter and lead rope on them, shake the lead rope in order to tell them to back off out of your space. Kinda like having your cake and eating it too. 

Mind you my horses are not allowed to lead me, step on me, try to shove me aside or any other rude behavior. I correct these things when they do them not before. I do not make a big deal out of it, like Irish Pixie said, a well placed elbow is very effective. You don't have to jab them just put your elbow out and let them run into it. They move off and it's an immediate release from the pressure. They usually understand fairly quickly that getting too close is uncomfortable but at the same time you're not making them move so far away that they think they're supposed to stand 6-10 feet away from you. Of course you're going to have a hard time catching them when you've trained them to keep their distance.

Mine are allowed as close to me as they want to be as long as they act like ladies/gentlemen. One likes to put his nose on my shoulder and follow me. He's never bit my shoulder nor has he ever ran over me because he knows either of those acts are not acceptable. They don't learn all this in a month of an hour or so every day under halter. I spend a lot of time teaching them these things when they are just free in the pasture/barn. I don't have stalls so they are free to come and go in the barn at all times. There might be 6 of them trying to help me scoop poop or clean their water tank. Does it take me more time to do my chores with their help? Heck yeah, but it's also wonderful training opportunities. The success of this depends on you staying aware of what they are up to at all times even though you're doing another task. Yes, I'm probably taking a risk doing it the way I do but I've always found that correcting them when they do something wrong teaches them their boundaries more effectively than trying to prevent them from ever making a mistake. I just had a hard time trying to put that last thought into words so I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. 

Be firm and fair in what you're asking of the horse and the rest will probably fall into place eventually. The probably is because out of my 12 I have 1 that could care less about having any human interaction. I think it's more of a learned behavior in her case from being in a kids petting zoo than a born with it trait. I've had others over the years that came here not caring about spending time with a human but they got over it.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Teej said:


> Sometimes I think the personal space thing is way overdone. For example: you want your horse to come to you, have a bond with you and enjoy working for you, BUT you put a halter and lead rope on them, shake the lead rope in order to tell them to back off out of your space. Kinda like having your cake and eating it too.
> 
> Mind you my horses are not allowed to lead me, step on me, try to shove me aside or any other rude behavior. I correct these things when they do them not before. I do not make a big deal out of it, like Irish Pixie said, a well placed elbow is very effective. You don't have to jab them just put your elbow out and let them run into it. They move off and it's an immediate release from the pressure. They usually understand fairly quickly that getting too close is uncomfortable but at the same time you're not making them move so far away that they think they're supposed to stand 6-10 feet away from you. Of course you're going to have a hard time catching them when you've trained them to keep their distance.
> 
> Mine are allowed as close to me as they want to be as long as they act like ladies/gentlemen. One likes to put his nose on my shoulder and follow me. He's never bit my shoulder nor has he ever ran over me because he knows either of those acts are not acceptable. They don't learn all this in a month of an hour or so every day under halter. I spend a lot of time teaching them these things when they are just free in the pasture/barn. I don't have stalls so they are free to come and go in the barn at all times. There might be 6 of them trying to help me scoop poop or clean their water tank. Does it take me more time to do my chores with their help? Heck yeah, but it's also wonderful training opportunities. The success of this depends on you staying aware of what they are up to at all times even though you're doing another task. Yes, I'm probably taking a risk doing it the way I do but I've always found that correcting them when they do something wrong teaches them their boundaries more effectively than trying to prevent them from ever making a mistake. I just had a hard time trying to put that last thought into words so I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.


^^ Yes. I agree with this 100%.

My horses are allowed to stand right next to me too, as long as they behave (which they nearly always do). And if I halter them, they are definitely allowed to stand next to me -- that is how they are groomed, checked over, tacked up, patted, etc. Perhaps it is confusing to send a well-behaved horse away.

Another option to this exercise is to teach them to "back" -- under saddle, and also in hand (or while loose). My horses will all back with the command "back" and, if necessary, a hand on their shoulder if I am on the ground. It's a useful command - when the step on the hose, when they enter a stall you don't want them in, etc.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I just want to make sure that I've been clear that we're talking about 2 different horses here. Zippy does not have a pushy bone in her body and I wouldn't do any exercises with her to make her move further from me. Quite the opposite with her.

We just brought Al home on the 11th, so he's quite new to us. After we had already settled on him but before we went to get him, there was a bad thunderstorm where he lived and something happened to his face. He's being treated for some lacerations on his nose, just above where the halter rests. It was quite swollen, as well, but the swelling has gone down. The other horse that was in the field with him had a broken eye socket and is not doing well at all - don't know what hit them. His nose is sore so I've been reluctant to pop on his halter when he acts up, like we do with other horses with good results. 

He is very disrespectful toward me - not toward my husband (who's brand new to horses) and not at all toward my friend. Of course - she knew him before he got spoiled, and my husband is big and brawny. I think I remind him of his previous owner and he thinks he can push me around. What he does is step almost on top of me and put his head over mine or rub his face on me, or throw his head back and forth over my head so I have to duck. Or when I'm putting his halter on he throws his head back. 

I don't feel like I should have to be choosing between ducking and weaving or getting whacked in the face by a 100 lb horse head. He actually did hit my husband in the chin with his head a few days ago, and it hurt. He's SO big. I don't want him walking up close to me and rubbing on me - and by the time there's a body part I can reach to hit with my elbow, or push with my hand, his head is already above mine. I want him to stay the heck back! That horse really makes me mad. Docile as can be with my husband and my friend. I don't give to him - I don't step away. I square my shoulders to him and get firm with him. Yesterday I made him lower his head, over and over again, and hold it down.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> We work on position, stopping, starting, backing, keeping pace. Lots of changes of direction and speed. They have to pay very close attention, as any small infraction is grounds for chastisement.


What do you do as chastisement? For example, on a horse that doesn't keep pace and hangs back or drags on the lead.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

wr said:


> You mentioned in a previous thread that you don't take hints well but part of horsemanship is learning the subtle nuances


I took her comment to mean more something along the lines of "Horse people don't say exactly what I should be doing, step by step. They use terms that mean things that only they know, and don't explain them. There is a whole language of horsemanship that people who've been on the outside aren't privy to, and don't automatically understand."

It could also be that the person giving the "hints" is just not a good teacher of humans. Maybe a good horse teacher, but that doesn't always translate into being able to explain what needs to be done and why, to the person who is learning.

Every industry has its buzzwords and buzzphrases. To people in the industry, these are everyday words and phrases that everyone understands. To people just getting started, sometimes you might as well be speaking a foreign language, because nothing being said is automatically understood.

And unfortunately there is too often an attitude of "You don't understand what I'm saying? You obviously aren't worthy of owning a horse."

This forum is usually very helpful, so I'm not pointing fingers here. But I think fffarmergirl should be very forthright with the woman who is helping her at home, in saying, "I don't understand what you are telling me to do. Can you maybe explain it in more fully or a different way?" And if that person is not willing to do so, she should find someone else to help her.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

fffarmergirl said:


> I just want to make sure that I've been clear that we're talking about 2 different horses here. Zippy does not have a pushy bone in her body and I wouldn't do any exercises with her to make her move further from me. Quite the opposite with her.
> 
> We just brought Al home on the 11th, so he's quite new to us. After we had already settled on him but before we went to get him, there was a bad thunderstorm where he lived and something happened to his face. He's being treated for some lacerations on his nose, just above where the halter rests. It was quite swollen, as well, but the swelling has gone down. The other horse that was in the field with him had a broken eye socket and is not doing well at all - don't know what hit them. His nose is sore so I've been reluctant to pop on his halter when he acts up, like we do with other horses with good results.
> 
> ...


 
When he uses his head poke him with a finger on the soft side of his muzzle reinforced with NO or any other word or noise that you want to mean "stop it now". Mine actually understand "knock it off". LOL


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

birchtreefarm said:


> What do you do as chastisement? For example, on a horse that doesn't keep pace and hangs back or drags on the lead.


I do a 180. I turn away from the horse and when I encounter his rump I give it a pop with the end of the lead rope. 

So, let's say I am leading with the horse on my right and the horse is lagging behind. I turn around sharply by pivoting to the left, as though I left the oven on back at the barn. Since the horse was lagging and not up at my shoulder, his butt will probably now be conveniently on my left. I give it a smack with the end of the lead rope. Or maybe a few rapid consecutive smacks, depending on the amount of motivation necessary. That should goose him forward. He will run out of lead rope and usually come around up to my right shoulder again. If he doesn't, I give a tug on the rope to bring him up. Sometimes several iterations of this circle are necessary for him to understand that when I turn around I better not find his butt there. He will begin to understand the value of staying at my shoulder so he can better keep pace with me when I suddenly turn around because I left the oven on back at the barn.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Teej said:


> When he uses his head poke him with a finger on the soft side of his muzzle reinforced with NO or any other word or noise that you want to mean "stop it now". Mine actually understand "knock it off". LOL


Mine do too, and it's usually growled. If it's loud they get a "Oh, crap" look.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I should have said that if the horse has been worked with enough that he has a verbal cue to "go" (a cluck, smooch, kiss, "walk", "walk on"), I will give the verbal cue to a lagging horse as a first choice. If he has not yet learned a verbal cue or if he ignores it, I will progress to the 180.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Mine do too, and it's usually growled. If it's loud they get a "Oh, crap" look.


I use "quit" because it doesn't sound similar to any of their other verbal commands. First thing I do to any new student is break them of "no" because it sounds too much like "whoa". And "whoa" is sacred.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

All horses don't respond to things the same way.

My DD trained 2 mustangs that had been raised in the wild in Nevada. If your friend had shaken a rope at them she may have been killed. To them anything round and moving said snake and they would attack it. My DD had more than a few hoses ruined, when someone forgot and turned on the water with the hose in their pen. When that hose moved, they killed it. She also used flat leads for awhile. They both went on to become good ranch horses, and you could use a rope on them, however it took time.

You might want to change the way you do things if the horse is not responding. Bonding is going to take time, the horse needs to trust you. To trust they need to understand what you are asking them to do.


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## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

I think that mare knows she is the boss in your relationship. I would quit trying to be her friend and start letting her know YOU are the boss. Putting her head in the corner is NOT pouting, is' giving you her back end which translates to a threat to kick in horse lingo. It sounds as if both of your horses know they can push you around.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

With your husbands horse you should never get angry. Keep calm and realize it's not that you're smaller, or that your husband is "big and beefy". To a full sized horse, your husband is NOT big and beefy, he's scrawny compared to the horse. 

I would say stop trying to figure out why that horse disrespects you and start making him respect you. It's sad that his nose is sore, but instead of doing nothing, just "pop" the halter lightly. If he puts his head near you to lean on you or over your head, pop him then. If he has no consequences, he has no reason to stop. Since he's being so pushy, try to think of yourself bullying him into respecting you, because your versions of being in charge seem to be too soft. 

Even if he's not being "mean" but being "playful and overly loving", it's dangerous and he's really just shoving you around because you let him do it. He's not loving on you, he's bullying you in horse language. Get tough back and he'll show you more respect.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl, I asked previously and you may have missed my question. I was of the impression that these are trained horses so I'm kinda curious as to what you are trying to correct with the training exercises or is this something your friend advocates to help you interpret equine behavior?


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

fffarmergirl said:


> I just want to make sure that I've been clear that we're talking about 2 different horses here. Zippy does not have a pushy bone in her body and I wouldn't do any exercises with her to make her move further from me. Quite the opposite with her.
> 
> We just brought Al home on the 11th, so he's quite new to us. After we had already settled on him but before we went to get him, there was a bad thunderstorm where he lived and something happened to his face. He's being treated for some lacerations on his nose, just above where the halter rests. It was quite swollen, as well, but the swelling has gone down. The other horse that was in the field with him had a broken eye socket and is not doing well at all - don't know what hit them. His nose is sore so I've been reluctant to pop on his halter when he acts up, like we do with other horses with good results.
> 
> ...


Well, I agree that you should not have to make a choice between ducking or getting hit with a head. Although, most of us have been hit by our horse's heads before - usually it's unintentional.

So, what are you doing when he's misbehaving -- are you bringing him in to tack him up, or turning him out, or is this a groundwork exercise?

I think it's an important distinction because the reason for the behavior might be different depending on the situation. If he is dragging you back and forth from paddock to barn, then I'd give him a pop on the halter even with a sore face, make him stop or do a 180. And practice this - especially if he's dragging you toward what he wants (his feed, his turnout, etc.) - dragging you or being bad in hand does not get him anything except work. Good leading gets rewarded by getting fed, or turned out more quickly.

If this is a response you get from him during a groundwork exercise - again, I'd think about what you want, and why. If other people are able to get the correct response - then you are either not asking for something correctly, or your horse doesn't respect you - or both. But it's hard to know which it is from your description.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> I use "quit" because it doesn't sound similar to any of their other verbal commands. First thing I do to any new student is break them of "no" because it sounds too much like "whoa". And "whoa" is sacred.


I use the 'buzzer noise'. One 'naaaaaaaht' from me means lock it down and stop moving whatever body part you're moving! 


Also.....
One of the things that drives me craziest is when new or inexperienced horse owners start with the Parelli or Anderson type crap (yeah, I went there) on an already trained horse. Good grief, someone obviously was able to train the animal to ride without getting killed or killing someone else so the horse evidently has some idea of what to do and what not to do. A refresher on ground manners is one thing, reinventing the wheel, sending your horse 'away' (where the heck is he going? Are we usin' FedEx or UPS?) or any of that carrot stick stuff.....um....NO. 
Good way to ruin a horse. 
Like humans, horses have their own personalities. Some are uber friendly and some just want you to shut up so they can get to work already. As long as the horse is respectful and safe, then stop trying to change them. You wouldn't try to change a human's personality, would you?
:soap:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> I use the 'buzzer noise'. One 'naaaaaaaht' from me means lock it down and stop moving whatever body part you're moving!
> 
> 
> Also.....
> ...


The exercises is that it is something that a couple of trainers promote to sell their own products and it is popular with new riders because they feel they're learning something important. My concern is that new riders often overdo these exercises simply because they figure more is better and nobody tells them that a well trained horse doesn't need 45 minutes of training before riding and because of their lack of experience, they can very easily incorporate bad habits.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

wr said:


> The exercises is that it is something that a couple of trainers promote to sell their own products and it is popular with new riders because they feel they're learning something important. My concern is that new riders often overdo these exercises simply because they figure more is better and nobody tells them that a well trained horse doesn't need 45 minutes of training before riding and because of their lack of experience, they can very easily incorporate bad habits.


I agree - as a comparison, my dog is quite well-trained. He knows the command "sit" 100%. And if I ask him for a sit, I will get it. But if I ask him 30 times in a row, I guarantee he will stop giving me a sit, even for a treat (and he's highly food motivated). We have long since passed the need to "work on sit." 

But we have moved on to more complex obedience and "sit" is just something I ask for sometimes to give him a break from using his brain.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> I use the 'buzzer noise'. One 'naaaaaaaht' from me means lock it down and stop moving whatever body part you're moving!


I use the buzzer noise too. I never thought of it as a buzzer noise but it totally is. I always thought of it as a German sound of disapproval - "Aacht!" - but it is equally game-show "failure" or "time's up" buzzer sound. My horses earn that sound when they are just about to do something they shouldn't. It is a warning. It precedes dire consequences. 

Usually has to be deployed when one horse makes a surly face at another horse in my presence. Or when I come through the gate with an armload of hay and leave the gate open behind me... usually the horses fall in line behind me and follow to the feeding area but SOMETIMES a certain ICELANDIC goes to the open gate and considers exiting through it. If I make "the sound", he tosses his head and comes briskly after us, as if to say, "I wasn't gonna!"


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

wr said:


> The exercises is that it is something that a couple of trainers promote to sell their own products and it is popular with new riders because they feel they're learning something important. My concern is that new riders often overdo these exercises simply because they figure more is better and nobody tells them that a well trained horse doesn't need 45 minutes of training before riding and because of their lack of experience, they can very easily incorporate bad habits.


Yeah... it's all a racket. I've had a few horses that were 'Parelli'd'. Now if seen in an ad it means it's time to RUN in the opposite direction!


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> I use the buzzer noise too. I never thought of it as a buzzer noise but it totally is. I always thought of it as a German sound of disapproval - "Aacht!" - but it is equally game-show "failure" or "time's up" buzzer sound. My horses earn that sound when they are just about to do something they shouldn't. It is a warning. It precedes dire consequences.


That sounds like the same noise I use on my farm collie. Sometimes written as "ANCK!" A buzzer noise is a good description of it.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks so much everybody - I'm going to reread everything as I learn more and hopefully understand more. 




wr said:


> fffarmergirl, I asked previously and you may have missed my question. I was of the impression that these are trained horses so I'm kinda curious as to what you are trying to correct with the training exercises or is this something your friend advocates to help you interpret equine behavior?


wr what training exercises are you talking about? The shaking the lead thing to make him back off? I was trying to correct him getting on top of me. He's a trained horse but, like I mentioned before, he spent some time being allowed to bully a woman around and unlearned some of his manners.



offthegrid said:


> So, what are you doing when he's misbehaving -- are you bringing him in to tack him up, or turning him out, or is this a groundwork exercise?
> 
> I think it's an important distinction because the reason for the behavior might be different depending on the situation. If he is dragging you back and forth from paddock to barn, then I'd give him a pop on the halter even with a sore face, make him stop or do a 180. And practice this - especially if he's dragging you toward what he wants (his feed, his turnout, etc.) - dragging you or being bad in hand does not get him anything except work. Good leading gets rewarded by getting fed, or turned out more quickly.
> 
> If this is a response you get from him during a groundwork exercise - again, I'd think about what you want, and why. If other people are able to get the correct response - then you are either not asking for something correctly, or your horse doesn't respect you - or both. But it's hard to know which it is from your description.


Off the grid, he was doing it pretty much any time we had him on a lead. He did try to drag me - once. He got a real hard pop on the lead rope at that point and hasn't repeated that behavior. It's the on top of me stuff I was trying to correct - getting right up next to me, hitting me with his head, mugging for treats etc. He was the worst when I was putting his halter on him. I know for a fact he was trained to put his head down to have his halter on but he seemed to have "forgotten." He was just being a brat because he'd been allowed to get away with it for a while at the other place. What bothered me is that it was mostly me he was doing it to. It must be something in my body language.

Anyway - my husband seems to have him completely under control. That's a little frustrating for me - he's been working with horses for 1 week and I've been working with them for almost a year, and he's already better at it than me. I think it's a self confidence issue.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

fffarmergirl said:


> Off the grid, he was doing it pretty much any time we had him on a lead. He did try to drag me - once. He got a real hard pop on the lead rope at that point and hasn't repeated that behavior. It's the on top of me stuff I was trying to correct - getting right up next to me, hitting me with his head, mugging for treats etc. He was the worst when I was putting his halter on him. I know for a fact he was trained to put his head down to have his halter on but he seemed to have "forgotten." He was just being a brat because he'd been allowed to get away with it for a while at the other place. What bothered me is that it was mostly me he was doing it to. It must be something in my body language.
> 
> Anyway - my husband seems to have him completely under control. That's a little frustrating for me - he's been working with horses for 1 week and I've been working with them for almost a year, and he's already better at it than me. I think it's a self confidence issue.


I agree that it probably is a self-confidence issue. And that the horse can read it in your body language.

Don't worry, you will get better! I got my first horse at age 35ish? I wasn't planning on getting an ex-racing, ex-broodmare that no one had ridden in 8 years....but she badly needed an upgrade...and there you go. What gave me confidence was two things: 1) lots of really dumb people own horses and the horses seem to be ok; and 2) no matter how badly I do, it is better than what she had....

Not exactly major confidence boosters, but I figured I probably wouldn't kill her, and I could learn the rest. And I did.  You will too.

It's been almost 10 years of horse ownership for me and I feel like I am finally doing it well. Not that I did it *badly* but from time to time things didn't go right and I wondered why. I definitely think there were some times that my APHA mare *couldn't* do things because she knew I'd give up before she did, etc. My body language told her exactly what she wanted to know, and she's a smart mare. 

So, don't be discouraged...just keep plugging along. Keep yourself safe - that is the #1 rule. And everything else WILL come with time. (And if you keep your standards low, like I did, most things are a success! Yay! They didn't die last night! Success!)

I will also say that I feel like my riding has advanced in leaps and bounds since we found our current trainer. So, if you are not sure you are getting what you need from the professionals around you...don't stop looking. It's awkward, for sure, at times. We didn't exactly burn bridges but some relationships didn't survive...but those were not my *friends*...they were people I was paying for a service. And not getting it. So, not saying find a new trainer, but don't rule it out if you feel like you are not getting the support/instruction you want or need.

Good luck!


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

There's also learning/teaching styles to consider. It doesn't have to be personal - just a matter of whether or not the way the material is being presented is working for you.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks for the reassurance  Offthegrid - it's amazing that you were able to succeed with that horse! That is very encouraging.

I'm fortunate that my friends have other professional horse people friends. A woman who worked as a trail guide on a dude ranch in North Dakota came over tonight and rode Al. She kept saying "Wow. This is an awesome horse. I love this horse. I'm envious." She made it look easy and really showed him off to us - made us glad we got him.

She gave us quite a few pointers and mentioned that a tense attitude will travel right down into a horse and make it tense. She was very relaxed and patient and really took her time. I sure wish I could be that relaxed. 

She actually doesn't own any broke horses right now and she's been wanting to trail ride so she might come out and ride somebody else's horses. We volunteered Al. Maybe she'll give us a lesson or two in exchange.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Do you ever watch "The Dog Whisperer" on Nat Geo Wild? I know dogs and horses are 2 very different critters but his catch phrase of "calm, assertive energy" is what I think is a good way to be around any animal. That show is no longer in production but they have reruns on every once in a while, you ought to try to catch a few and see how he works.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> Thanks so much everybody - I'm going to reread everything as I learn more and hopefully understand more.
> 
> wr what training exercises are you talking about? The shaking the lead thing to make him back off? I was trying to correct him getting on top of me. He's a trained horse but, like I mentioned before, he spent some time being allowed to bully a woman around and unlearned some of his manners.


You mention several times that you're 'working with her,' once you mention ground work, chasing her to get her to come back and using the AQHA video for reference and all these comments relate to your mare. You even ask in post #13 if you should work with her daily so I'm wondering what you're working on.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh - I'm just working with getting to know her, feeling comfortable with her, riding her etc. She's new to me and I've had a few lessons but I'm a green rider. Every time, before I ride her, I lead her around the arena, make her do circles, flex her head, lunge her etc., to make sure she's listening before I get on her. I want to get her out of the arena and onto the trails and I can't do that until I'm comfortable doing everything in the arena. Plus she sat in the field for a while so she's kind of out of shape. 

She's going for another 30 days of training, because she needs an attitude adjustment. I know she's had all the training before. I'm going to get some more riding lessons during that time. I'm just not comfortable on her. I'm too nervous and she picks up on it. I've walked her in the arena and trotted her around in the small pen and we seemed to be doing fine so today I brought her out to the arena to trot her. She threatened to buck me. She snorted and put her head down and hunched her back like she was going to buck. I pulled her head back and she didn't do it but it scared me. She's just got too much attitude. She got accustomed to not being used. I know she was used a lot in the past, but it's been a while.

Everybody says horses don't forget, and if they've had good training it's there. So after this refresher I sure hope things are going to work out.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I've stayed out of this because there are others who are weighing in who have a lot more experience than me. I'm just going to point out a couple of things that concern me but, I'd expect someone who knows more to maybe explain to me why they seem like red flags.

'Attitude adjustment' I just feel like that is more human in it's source than the horse. I mean none of us really know the horses involved or you really-- what's that old line? There's what he said, what she said and the truth? You mention taking lessons but are you taking lessons on your horse with the person who is training your horse? I know it's not always possible but that would seem ideal. I can't say how many times I've seen the horse carted off to training for a refresher when all it does is stick for a few weeks, a month and then it's off to the trainer with the horse again.

I think I saw stats that went something like 90% of people who get into horses get out of them within the first year. They are a huge amount of work and money and they are an alien mind. It takes time and trial and bruises (hopefully that's all) to come to know them. 

My hope is that your mentor not only has good skills and horsemanship but also the ability to pass them along to you. You mentioned somewhere else to just watch what other's do and copy them but you have to understand the whys of what they are doing and that there may be more than one how. 

I happen to consider that I know 'a lot' about horses and I'd rate my knowledge at about 8% of available knowledge about horses and what good horsemanship is. I wish you good luck and hope that others here can give you good advice!


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Well, the horse may not really need an attitude adjustment, just need someone who is more experienced in handling her. That is not a criticism of you or the horse, just the truth. Somewhere there is a perfect combination of horse/handler - and this may not be it for you.

I have a really nice, well-trained APHA mare. But she is a little sensitive and you have to be aware and careful of how you ask things of her; she needs you to be clear, confident, and assertive. That's just what works for her, and when you ride her like that - she's great.

My kids, however, had a hard time with her; and they didn't enjoy her. She was never *bad* -- she's a stocky, powerful animal and could certainly have tossed them anytime she wanted to, and never did. BUT...they didn't click. They were nervous, she got nervous, they were more nervous, etc. 

We bought a WB mare this fall and it's very different - she is friendly, simple, easy and lazy. Yes, you need a crop...but you never have to worry that you will get a canter instead of a trot, or that she'll jump 3'6" over a ground pole. So, as a result, my dd rides her so well - she is confident and happy, and worst thing the mare will do is walk.

So, perhaps what you need is that type of beginner horse - the friendly, lazy, confidence booster. That is what we sought out to get, and we found her.

I looked for: size (don't care); color (don't care); gender (don't care); age (under 20) conformation/movement (can be ugly); temperament (0-2 on a scale of 1-10); soundness (serviceably sound). Surprisingly I found a 9 year old WB mare that fit the bill - and pretty cheaply. 

So if you look for safe & sound, you will find something. Sometimes the words "confidence booster" are used in the ad. That's what you want. Good luck!

PS - the paint mare is all mine now, and rides better than ever since she's only getting instructions from me. So it wasn't the horse that was the problem, it was the riding.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

CraterCove I'm going to be taking lessons on Zippy but the trainer was watching me on her today and she feels she needs to spend some time on her before I get on her again. She wants to give me lessons on a different horse until I'm more confident and Zippy is behaving herself, then get me back on Zippy. I think that will make me feel better, too. I'm very nervous since my dad was nearly killed in a horse accident a couple of months ago. He spent a lot of time in the ICU and he's had 6 surgeries and he just started walking again. I'm probably even more nervous than most newbies.

The trainer said something about "green horse and green rider," and I've heard that before but I didn't think Zippy was a green horse because she's been ridden so much in the past. 

I can see how 90% of people who get into horses would get out of them within the first year. Definitely. I am spending all of my free time and all of my spare money on them, and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know. I feel like I'm going to be green for the rest of my life. It's frustrating but it's something that I really want to do, and it's important to me.

There are a lot of things that people who know horses have learned so well that feel to them like they're just "common sense." There are things most experienced horse people don't even think to tell newbies, and some of those are the very basics that are the most important to learn. The way an experienced person moves around a horse, for example, is not second nature, and it can't be expressed in words. It needs to be copied. 

Or - the way an experienced horse person sits in the saddle. I kept hearing "sit deeper in the saddle." I was like "what do you mean, deeper? I'm on the deepest part!" I thought they meant "don't sit on the cantle" and I couldn't understand why they were saying that, because I wasn't on the cantle.

So what I meant when I said to watch and copy was - when the lesson is over, continue to watch and learn.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl, how long was the mare pastured for and how much training did she have before she was put up? If you send her off for further training, it would be a very good idea to work with your trainer and the horse for a period of time. 

Does your friend consider this horse to be green or just a bit fresh? I'd really like to see you riding something that would boost your confidence rather than leave you apprehensive. 

When I have a nervous rider, I ask them to whistle or hum a tune when they're riding because it encourages breathing which in turn causes them to relax.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wr she was pastured for about 2 years and I didn't get specifics on how much she was used before, but my friend who knows her verified that it was "a lot" and that she did very well when she was free leased. Not only did the woman who was leasing her ride her, she had her young daughter learning on her as well.

I'll try whistling and humming. My friend has been surprised by Zippy's behavior, says "she's testing you hard core". 

I'd rather have a horse that would boost my confidence, too. . . . . . I've committed myself to Zippy and put a lot of time and effort into trying to make it work. 

I know I'm asking for a lot. Maybe I'm asking for too much. I want to be able to do some overnight trail riding by next year and I don't feel like I'll ever be able to go on a trail without an expert with me.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"She's got your number" which means she knows what she can get away with and does as often as possible. She is going to continue to push you to see what else she can do.

You need to show this mare that you are boss and that _doesn't_ mean beating on her. You tell her what to do, when to do it and for how long. If she doesn't listen work her hard on the longe line, circles, anything that makes her feet move and is harder than doing what you asked of her is.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I do feel you have you have some serious confidence/trust issues and as long as it is significant, it's not surprising the horse is testing you but I'm not overly keen on the idea that the mare has been put up for a couple years. 

In my opinion, that means her level of training is at the level of a seven year old and there aren't too many horses that age that I would consider a solid, done it all type horse. I'm actually surprised that your friend would encourage you to buy a horse that's been put up for so long but since I haven't seen the horse and only know what I've been told, I'm guessing that she knows something I don't.

Realistically, your goals are reasonable but if you need serious work on your confidence and quite honestly, I'm not sure this is the horse that will do that for you but perhaps additional training will help. 

Is this the friend that also owned the horse that turfed you a while back?


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> "She's got your number" which means she knows what she can get away with and does as often as possible. She is going to continue to push you to see what else she can do.
> 
> You need to show this mare that you are boss and that _doesn't_ mean beating on her. You tell her what to do, when to do it and for how long. If she doesn't listen work her hard on the longe line, circles, anything that makes her feet move and is harder than doing what you asked of her is.


I agree that this is true, but it isn't necessarily easy to change that if you are a novice. Again, I am thinking of my own kids. They just don't have the riding/handling experience to put all the pieces together and deliver the message that they are the boss and actually be able to see it through. And my dd is 15 - she's not 8...but still, some things just come with practice and time. When her only option was to ride the 'sensitive' horse, she rode less and less, and didn't progress because she was always trying to manage the horse. 

For some people, riding a tricky horse is a fun challenge, and it makes them a better rider/horseperson. But for others, it ruins their confidence and their fun, and sometimes they quit.

So to the OP - I'm not saying get rid of the horse, but give thought to how much you are putting in, and how much you are getting out of this horse relationship. Don't be locked onto something so strongly that you miss out on other opportunities should they come along.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> I agree that this is true, but it isn't necessarily easy to change that if you are a novice. Again, I am thinking of my own kids. They just don't have the riding/handling experience to put all the pieces together and deliver the message that they are the boss and actually be able to see it through. And my dd is 15 - she's not 8...but still, some things just come with practice and time. When her only option was to ride the 'sensitive' horse, she rode less and less, and didn't progress because she was always trying to manage the horse.
> 
> For some people, riding a tricky horse is a fun challenge, and it makes them a better rider/horseperson. But for others, it ruins their confidence and their fun, and sometimes they quit.
> 
> So to the OP - I'm not saying get rid of the horse, but give thought to how much you are putting in, and how much you are getting out of this horse relationship. Don't be locked onto something so strongly that you miss out on other opportunities should they come along.


What's hard about making a horse move it's feet?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think you have more than one problem. I think you have a tendency to over think things. You are old enough to realize that you are not invincible, you know it's going to hurt when you hit the ground, so you a hesitant because you worry about both getting hurt and doing the wrong thing for the horse.

Your Dad had a bad horse related accident recently. I think you need to realize that your Dad should have known, after three years of helping very often on the ranch that not shortening his stirrups was asking for an accident. Some one should have pointed that out to him before it happened, but ultimately, your Dad was responsible. If you observe basic safety rules this will not happen to you.

I think it would be a good idea for you to spend as much time as you possibly can with your horse. Brush her, take her for walks, make her behave, but don't try to "train" her. Don't repeat things over and over when you are in a training mode. If she does it right go on to something else. By spending time with her you will learn how she will react to things and give you more confidence.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> What's hard about making a horse move it's feet?


Oh come on - if that's all it was, no one would have trouble.

Even IF the only thing you are trying to do is get the horse to move it's feet - knowing how to act, when to act, when to stop, what to do if the horse comes to you, or tries to bolt away from you.....when to praise - and when to stop this exercise...that's not just "moving the horse's feet."

I've watched good riders try to lunge for the first time - and it's a comedy of errors. Even though they understand in principle, and even when the horse already knows how to lunge. Knowing what to do, and being able to do it aren't the same.

Which is why I pay my trainer to school my horse on things she is rusty on, or new things - it's not like I can't ride. But she is better than me, so the horse understands her more easily.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Oh come on - if that's all it was, no one would have trouble.
> 
> Even IF the only thing you are trying to do is get the horse to move it's feet - knowing how to act, when to act, when to stop, what to do if the horse comes to you, or tries to bolt away from you.....when to praise - and when to stop this exercise...that's not just "moving the horse's feet."
> 
> ...


It's not hard to make a horse move it's feet, it is a PITA and time consuming, but not hard. Can't longe? Make it back up or circle. The bottom line is to make what is being asked easier than disobeying. 

There is a huge difference between a good rider and a horse person.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's not hard to make a horse move it's feet, it is a PITA and time consuming, but not hard. Can't longe? Make it back up or circle. The bottom line is to make what is being asked easier than disobeying.


I understand. But understanding it and doing it isn't always easy for a novice. 

Is the horse disobeying? Or doesn't understand? That's a pretty important distinction, and not one a novice can always appreciate. And if the horse is truly disobeying, a novice handler may not be equipped to "discipline" or "train" the horse - by making it move its feet or doing something else. 



Irish Pixie said:


> There is a huge difference between a good rider and a horse person.


I agree. But even people who are comfortable with horses, and have lots of experience with them still need practice - lunging is a great example. It looks easy, but managing your feet and the lunge line and the lunge whip and the horse....that takes practice no matter how good of a horse person you are. So do many other things that we don't have to practice anymore. 

I can remember struggling to learn how to halter a horse; by the time I would figure out which end went over the horse's nose, it would run away or put its head up and I'd have to start all over. It's easy to forget how challenging some of the little things can be when you haven't done them 1000 times.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The big problem is that a green rider should not be trying to learn to ride on a horse that needs a tune up or is sullen and challenges the rider. In my opinion, this is an experiment designed to fail.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

wr said:


> The big problem is that a green rider should not be trying to learn to ride on a horse that needs a tune up or is sullen and challenges the rider. In my opinion, this is an experiment designed to fail.


Yes, I agree. 

Although the word *fail* may not be totally accurate. What you might end up with is a new rider that just doesn't enjoy riding - it's a fight, or a feeling of being defeated, or just more of a hassle than it's worth. So the rider learns to ride defensively, or doesn't progress, or is on eggshells hoping not to aggravate the horse instead of having fun, learning, and improving.

My first horse was not a good first horse for me. But I still took riding lessons elsewhere, and that in combination with working with my TB mare at home helped me a lot -- both to learn about horsemanship, but also to learn about what kind of ride I like. 

It's not bad to have a *difficult* horse as a new rider/horse owner - but if that is ALL you have, it won't be easy.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

It's hard to find a horse that doesn't need a tune up. It seems like most people decide to sell their horses when they realize they don't have time for them, or that their kids have lost interest, etc. So the horses I've found that were available have all sat for some time. Not two years but . . . . 

Anyway, there are things that I like about Zip. She's not spooky, for one - and she doesn't get buddy sour or barn sour. I've led her down the road a mile and she did awesome. 

I've decided not to get on her again until she's tuned up but I'm encouraged by one thing. Yesterday when I was riding her and she was acting up, she did listen to me. First, when I was walking her around the arena she really wanted to trot but I wasn't ready for her to start yet. She did listen when I said "whoa". She made it clear she didn't want to stop, swished her tail etc., but she stopped. She didn't take off with me. Then when she went to buck I said "whoa" and pulled her head up and she decided not to buck. She was serious about wanting to, and my friend who was watching saw it and ran into the arena and took the reins, so I know it wasn't my imagination or me misinterpreting her. So yeah - I'm leary of riding her, but I think she may listen for me. It's my anxiety that is the problem. A confidence booster would be better for me but that's the way life is.

She really might not be the horse for me and, if she's not, that will be OK. I will be disappointed because I've spent a month with her. I've committed a lot of time with her but I don't have to keep her. I'm just free leasing her until we can see if she'll work out or not. Yes, it's going to cost me some $ to get her trained but that money won't be wasted if she doesn't work out for me. If I'd actually bought her and paid board on her for this amount of time, it would have cost me a lot more and I'd be stuck trying to sell her.

I hate to take the bait about Ona, WR, but I'm going to because I'm a sucker for punishment. I couldn't bring myself to list her. I am bonded to that horse and she's not going anywhere. She's doing awesome. She is extremely well-behaved and I brought her to two shows this summer and she did great. My friend has not screwed me over. I haven't posted anything about her on here lately because I get beat up every time I do but I love her. She's doing fine with the rest of the horses. She's not a brat. She has awesome ground manners and still runs up to me and sticks her nose in the halter when I hold it up for her. She's the sweetest horse I have ever met and I'm very, very glad that she came into my life.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I figured you wouldn't sell Ona but you also neglected to answer my question so we'll try again. Is your friend who is currently mentoring you the same one that ecouraged you to ride the horse that bucked you off or am I thinking of another member?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

You must be thinking of another member.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> "She's got your number" which means she knows what she can get away with and does as often as possible. She is going to continue to push you to see what else she can do.
> 
> You need to show this mare that you are boss and that _doesn't_ mean beating on her. You tell her what to do, when to do it and for how long. If she doesn't listen work her hard on the longe line, circles, anything that makes her feet move and is harder than doing what you asked of her is.


I'm sorry - I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between what you're saying here, Pixie, and "training" or "working" her, which I guess is a bad thing? On the one hand I'm hearing a lot of people saying that it's a bad thing to train a horse that has already been trained, especially if I'm not a trainer. On the other hand I'm hearing that I need to show her who's boss, lunge her, make her only go where I want her to go etc. 



Molly Mckee said:


> I think you have more than one problem. I think you have a tendency to over think things. You are old enough to realize that you are not invincible, you know it's going to hurt when you hit the ground, so you a hesitant because you worry about both getting hurt and doing the wrong thing for the horse.
> 
> Your Dad had a bad horse related accident recently. I think you need to realize that your Dad should have known, after three years of helping very often on the ranch that not shortening his stirrups was asking for an accident. Some one should have pointed that out to him before it happened, but ultimately, your Dad was responsible. If you observe basic safety rules this will not happen to you.
> 
> I think it would be a good idea for you to spend as much time as you possibly can with your horse. Brush her, take her for walks, make her behave, but don't try to "train" her. Don't repeat things over and over when you are in a training mode. If she does it right go on to something else. By spending time with her you will learn how she will react to things and give you more confidence.


Oh, believe me, Molly, I have WAY more than one problem!!! :hysterical:Anyway - when you say not to repeat things over and over when I'm in training mode, do you mean that I shouldn't just keep doing the same thing over and over in one training session or that I shouldn't do the same thing from one day to the next? Like - I've been taking her out, making her do the circles and flex and lunge before I get on her every time just to make sure she's listening and get the "fresh" out of her. That's OK, right? All I've done so far is that stuff, and saddling her up and walking her and trotting her. 



offthegrid said:


> For some people, riding a tricky horse is a fun challenge, and it makes them a better rider/horseperson. But for others, it ruins their confidence and their fun, and sometimes they quit.
> 
> So to the OP - I'm not saying get rid of the horse, but give thought to how much you are putting in, and how much you are getting out of this horse relationship. Don't be locked onto something so strongly that you miss out on other opportunities should they come along.


Honestly, when I finally get to the point where I know what I'm doing, I think working with the tricky horses will be a lot of fun. Now is not the time for tricky, now is the time for me to learn the basics. I need to know how to ride a horse well at a controlled canter before I get on one that might take off with me. At this point I'm not the least bit certain Zippy wouldn't take off with me and, if that happened, I would absolutely panic! 

I'm limiting what I'm putting in to her. For example, I'm willing to try the training because I'll be learning a lot from that, too. I am not, however, willing to pay to have her teeth floated until/unless I commit long-term to her.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

You know, my first horse was very aloof when I got her. She'd been through a lot of owners, some of them not so nice. She was also very spoiled, and not very well trained. I wasn't going to let her be a brat, so I rode her with a crop and spurs. I also worked WITH a trainer to train her to be a better horse -- the trainer taught ME how to teach HER new cues, and how to tune up what she already knew but she needed to be better at. 

She was never an easy horse to ride. She initially didn't like being ridden much, and didn't like me at all (and made this very clear). She always wanted to be in forward motion, and if she couldn't go forward, she would weave. She'd weave under saddle if I made her stand still, she'd weave at the door of her stall, and yet if we turned her out, she'd pace and weave at the gate wanting back to her stall! She was unhappy, stressed out, and nervous. 

I rode her anyway, regardless of her opinion of me. At the time, she was my only horse, so it was ride her or not ride at all. (Later I picked up work exercising other people's horses, but when I first got her, she was it for me.) 

I figured she was she needed to earn her keep, no matter what her opinion of being ridden and people in general was. She was nineteen when I got her, so she wasn't exactly a young dumb filly who needed to be coddled. Also, I was NOT asking her to do anything outrageous -- just be civil under saddle. I kept reminding myself that I was simply asking her to do what every other domesticated, saddle broke, adult horse is expected to do -- and that I was not being cruel to her by expecting good manners and some relatively easy riding.

I did make sure her tack fit before I started demanding obedience. This is important.

Once I was sure her brattiness wasn't due to pain, I applied a crop to her barn sour fat butt as needed, spurred the snot out of her and made her move forward when she tried to buck and rear, and if she spun in circles when I asked for a halt I made her spin MORE circles until she was dizzy. This did not make her more nervous as I wasn't abusive, just very firm. Consistency from me helped her gain confidence. As time progressed, she grew less nervous as she learned what was expected of her. 

I suspect some of her anxiety was due to the fact that different people had demanded different things of her, but she'd never fully understood what anyone wanted because she wasn't actually TRAINED -- she'd just learned to go forward when kicked and to steer or stop when the reins were pulled on. Plus she was able to get away with things with some people, but severely (abusively) punished by others for the same behavior.

I also groomed her every day, bathed her almost every day (she loved baths), scratched her withers and curried her all over (she loved being groomed), and I brought her peppermint candies and oranges and generally loved on her no matter how much of a brat she was when I rode her. Eventually, I became someone she looked forward to seeing. I think it was the first time anyone at fussed over her. I always ended every day on a good note -- usually with a bath and some treats. 

Before I got her, her only interaction with people was when they caught her, threw a saddle on her, and rode her. I suspect she spent the entire time anxious about what was going to happen ... she didn't fully understand what people wanted, sometimes she misunderstood, and then she got punished randomly, for reasons she didn't understand. Then, if she was lucky, they might hose her down before turning her lose. I don't think anyone just took the time to hang out with her -- they simply rode her or they ignored her. 

So she had no reason to expect nice things from people, and from that stemmed her "aloof" behavior. She was never outright aggressive, but she'd just never come to associate people with affection. 

Yes, I drilled her until we were both sick of it in the arena. Yep, I got pretty firm with her when she did something unacceptable, like buck or rear or refuse to stop or try to run away with me. That horse knew every dirty trick in the book. She hated being "trained" and we had some epic battles. Any time I introduced a new concept to her, it was always a fight.

However, no matter how frustrating she could be when I was trying to teach her something basic (like "woah" on a verbal command or moving off leg) I also made sure we had time for fun. NEITHER of us enjoyed arena work, though it was very necessary. We did team sorting, though neither of us were very good at it. She enjoyed it. I spent most of the time making sure she didn't take a bite out of a calf's rear end ... but at least she was enthusiastic and having fun. I took her trail riding a lot, just the two of us. I'd find places with grass (not always easy in Arizona) and let her graze. If it rained, I rode out with her bareback and let her splash and roll in the biggest puddle of water that I could find, because she loved water.

She LIKED trotting and cantering over cavaletti, so I bought a bunch of 4" PVC pipes and set them up in varying, interesting, patterns. That horse never got tired of trotting over cavaletti, and it was good exercise for both of us. I think it was the challenge ... she hated boring stuff, but if I kept changing the layout of the caveletti, it kept her mind busy. We did a lot of serpentine patterns with 20 or 30 poles with a few little jumps mixed in. This had the added benefit of teaching her to flex and balance without it being obvious I was teaching her something.

Sometimes I just parked a chair in her stall, sat down with a book, and read it. The stable where I boarded had a lot of events, ranging from weddings to gymkhanas, so if there was an event at the stable I was there whenever possible ... strange people and horses made her nervous, but she learned to be calm if I was there. 

She ended up my best horsey friend ... she'd reach around and "groom" me rather than pinning her ears and biting me when I brushed her, she gave me horsey hugs by tucking her chin over my shoulder when I hugged her, and I'll never forget the first time she nickered when she saw me coming. She eventually trusted me, bonded to me, and viewed me as her herd leader. 

If I hadn't MADE her behave (sometimes with the use of a crop and spurs) when I first got her, she'd have been unmanageable. She never would have been my "friend" -- she would have remained a dangerous horse who didn't trust anyone, didn't see any reason to like people, and who could barely be ridden. 

She lived to be 24 and I don't think I saw her weave once for the last couple of years of her life. She was never a calm horse under saddle -- she was naturally a hot horse, and she was an adrenaline junky who loved to go. However, she was happy, and I was happy with her. 

I will say I fell off her more times than I care to remember. I never got seriously hurt -- I was lucky -- but she dumped me quite a few times. I wore a helmet, and I knew the risk I was taking. It was worth it to me.


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

I've got the opposite problem with my mare. She wants to cuddle. All the time. When she sees me, she comes right up, leans her neck against me, and sighs so contentedly. I'm dying right now- she's being boarded, and I miss her so much. 
Our donkey, however, was stand-offish for a long time. Not exactly what you are describing, but some of the behaviors were close. He's still young, and in training towards using him as a work animal when he's older, but he's responded well to firm but loving handling. And he used to trot away from us at first, now he will come up to me and bury his nose in my hands, or lay his forehead against my chest. I'm not entirely certain what made him change his mind about us, but we handle him a lot. Both horses get treats for good behavior, or a knuckle in a tender spot if they are acting up. We don't follow any set guidelines for training, I just make it clear what I want them to do, and expect them to do it. I've been told it's natural horsemanship, but I don't know. I just kind of treat them the way I raised my kids. They are like toddlers in some ways. I do the same thing with my dogs, and we have great dogs. *shrugs* 
We are missing the donkey right now, too. Just moved and clearing pasture so we can get them back home with us. 

As far as your situation, you mentioned she sometimes enjoys being scratched. It's possible that you can increase her enjoyment by adding a treat to it. Learn some basic horse massage techniques and spray some peppermint essential oil mixed with water onto her coat, and work it in. It will feel good on her skin, and she may enjoy the scent, too. Massage works great for building trust between animals and people.


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

erm, dying because I miss her. She's not being boarded because I'm dying. As far as I know, I'm not actually dying. Hyperbole fail.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Cygnet, thank you SO MUCH! It is very encouraging to read your story and it makes me want to not give up. I think Zippy wants to be that horse. She has actually come up to the fence and nickered 3 times now, and my friend says she's never seen her do that before or heard of her doing it. Funny - she'll come up and nicker and still refuse to be caught, which is frustrating. 

She even seems to want to be saddled, once I catch her. After she's been caught, she is very willing to come into the barn and be handled. She gets so relaxed while we're putting the saddle on and I've started giving her lots of scratches during saddling.

And, like you, I'm really not asking that much of her. I suspect that she would really enjoy a challenge. The way she moves when she's being free-lunged by my friend, it looks like she really enjoys the sudden stops and turns. My friend keeps saying she moves like a cutting or reining horse and she has told me several times that there's a place nearby where we can do cutting when I can handle her. 

She absolutely LOVED the long walk we took down the road. I need to do that with her again soon. She seems to enjoy seeing new things. 

I doubt she's had any rough treatment since she was a baby but my friend suspects her treatment then might have been very rough/abusive. 

I'm going to keep loving up on her while she's being trained, although lately I've been frustrated with her. On the one hand, it seems like all she wants is to be left alone. On the other hand she almost sighs when she's being brushed, and her head comes down and she gets so relaxed. I didn't know horses liked oranges - I'll bring her some. 

I don't mind my friend's arena too much. It's big. I'd much rather be out in the open but that's not going to happen until next year. The back barn, though - which is what they use in place of a round pen - is a different story. 

Thanks again!





Elsbet said:


> I've got the opposite problem with my mare. She wants to cuddle. All the time. When she sees me, she comes right up, leans her neck against me, and sighs so contentedly. I'm dying right now- she's being boarded, and I miss her so much.
> Our donkey, however, was stand-offish for a long time. Not exactly what you are describing, but some of the behaviors were close. He's still young, and in training towards using him as a work animal when he's older, but he's responded well to firm but loving handling. And he used to trot away from us at first, now he will come up to me and bury his nose in my hands, or lay his forehead against my chest. I'm not entirely certain what made him change his mind about us, but we handle him a lot. Both horses get treats for good behavior, or a knuckle in a tender spot if they are acting up. We don't follow any set guidelines for training, I just make it clear what I want them to do, and expect them to do it. I've been told it's natural horsemanship, but I don't know. I just kind of treat them the way I raised my kids. They are like toddlers in some ways. I do the same thing with my dogs, and we have great dogs. *shrugs*
> We are missing the donkey right now, too. Just moved and clearing pasture so we can get them back home with us.
> 
> As far as your situation, you mentioned she sometimes enjoys being scratched. It's possible that you can increase her enjoyment by adding a treat to it. Learn some basic horse massage techniques and spray some peppermint essential oil mixed with water onto her coat, and work it in. It will feel good on her skin, and she may enjoy the scent, too. Massage works great for building trust between animals and people.


Elsbet, my Ona is affectionate like that. She comes up and sticks her head in my armpit, and she gives the best horsey hugs. She puts her neck over my shoulder and uses her head to pull me in close and hug me. It makes me so happy I cry! I can't wait until she's old enough to ride. 

Peppermint essential oil - I have some of that. It won't result in the rest of the horses licking her all over? I'd love to use it on both Zippy and Ona. 



Elsbet said:


> erm, dying because I miss her. She's not being boarded because I'm dying. As far as I know, I'm not actually dying. Hyperbole fail.


 :hysterical:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

fffarmergirl said:


> I'm sorry - I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between what you're saying here, Pixie, and "training" or "working" her, which I guess is a bad thing? On the one hand I'm hearing a lot of people saying that it's a bad thing to train a horse that has already been trained, especially if I'm not a trainer. On the other hand I'm hearing that I need to show her who's boss, lunge her, make her only go where I want her to go etc.


Insisting on manners isn't "training" it's just something that has to be done, more of a reminder. When you want to ride your mare and she won't be caught, you make her move her feet until she decides that being caught is easier than working. When you're walking your mare from the pasture to the barn and she's bumping into you, move her out of your space, if it continues you use your elbow or circle to press the issue that it's your space and she has to stay out of it.

Most horses, once trained, only need refresher courses (I call them "Come to Jesus meetings" if the horse has seriously digressed) to maintain their solid citizenship. In short, I don't want this to be a know-it-all book type post (that is already covered) you don't need to "train" everyday- you have an enjoyable ride on your horse, while doing so you realize she's not responding as quickly to your cues as she should, you take a little time and work on that but you don't have a set hour long (or whatever) of Parelli games, and mind numbing "training" every day or even every other day and your horse is going to sore. Endless circles in an arena is boring too, go for a trail ride. If you feel safe on this horse, and it sounds like you do, just enjoy riding her. Continue your lessons, either on her or another horse, have your trainer tune her up, but above all else don't let her get away with disrespecting you- that is the root of the problem.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl, I don't think you're reading our comments fully or you're you're simply arguing for the sake of an argument. 

The general concern with you training is that in training a horse, you are expecting to achieve certain results but those results come from understanding the psychology of your horse, the concept behind the lesson and using that lesson to turn the training concept into a behavior. Do you know why you're doing the exercises you are and how the horse will benefit? 

If training is something you'd like to do in the future, that's great but learn horsemanship first.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Your horse may not want to be caught because you are going over and over things she knows, does well and is bored. Think about the teacher that made you write all your spelling words 25 times, even tho you got 100 on the test. 

You do not need to be "training" a horse when you don't understand what you are doing, or why. You should be spending your time learning how your horse "works".
The worst thing the new Trainers have done is convince people that if you read the book, buy the video, or go to their clinic you are a trainer. They all have a good idea or three, but there is no basic 1, 2, 3 of any kind that makes you a trainer. If you don't understand horses, you can't be affective as a trainer, IMO.

There are no shortcuts to understanding horses. It takes time. You need to be working with a talented horseman, not just a trainer. You have to be sure the trainer you are working with understands what they are doing, and has the ability to communicate to you what and why they are doing.

Forget about cutting, you are years away from being able to ride a cutting horse working cows, let alone train one.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Three days into training and it's like Zippy's a different horse! Part of that is because she's getting the refresher course but a lot of it is that things are finally clicklng in my mind. I understand much more of what you all are saying now - just have to see things done to get it. I finally understand what people mean when they say "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult," etc. When Zippy moves her feet while the trainer is trying to get into the saddle, she steps down and makes her go around and around in circles, then tries again - if she moves again, she makes her go in circles again. If she stands still, she doesn't have to move in circles. Now it seems "so easy a caveman could do it." I may be a little dense, but something is finally sinking in.

I have never had such a good day as I had yesterday. First I got to ride the "easy" horse in figure 8s through poles and over logs. Oh my goodness - I never could understand why people enjoyed riding horses in the arena, but that was fun! I want more obstacles! Then, I got to watch the trainer with Zippy. After that, I was riding _Zippy_ in figure 8s and making her go anywhere I wanted her to go. She was walking without trying to break into a trot, and trotting without breaking into a canter, and going around and around in little circles etc. Most of all, I wasn't scared. Holy cow, that was fun!

Wow. I'm looking forward to how much better we'll both be doing at the end of the 30 days. It's more like training for me than for her. She's really a good horse!

I know I'm gushing - sorry - I can't stop.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Great! Now you know why we are all telling you to take lessons on her and that you need help that is there to see what you are doing and explain to you timing, etc. Things we just can't do over the internet. Have fun!


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

That's generally how it happens. Once you "get it" with the why and how, things that seemed like magic before suddenly make sense.

Building your confidence and getting you into a good relaxed mood with the "easy" horse before you get on the difficult horse is a classic and very smart tactic by the trainer too.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

I haven't read this whole thread but here are my two cents. This horse might be a bad fit just like the foal was. You might well do better with an old guy who is currently being ridden. I would think that a guy in his teens might be a better fit. I was taught that I should never let a horse win the battle, ever. They are smart litte buggers and will take a mile when given an inch. If i remembr correctly, you had frequent breakthroughs with the foal. 

I wouldn't be too worried about your mare being a loner. We have had our neighbor's gelding two or so years. He was a big time loner there. The neighbor kept between four and eight horses when this guy was there. He ate alone, stayed alone, and never got close to any other horses. 

It took him about two days to start following our Joshie around. They are like an old married couple. This old guy crossed deep creeks there. Joshie hates getting his feet wet. The old guy has never even got near the creek except to drink. The old guy is friendly and easy enough to catch but he will never be the people oriented horse that Josh is. 

My long winded point is to say that your mare just doesn't like crowds.

It kind of concerns me that it seems like your friend is leading you towards things that require much more experiece. It is entirely possible that I am mixing people up but are you the person whose friend suggested you get a foal without any experience? If so, and this is the same friend, I am concerned about her judgement. Knowing you have little experience why would the topic of cutting even have been mentioned? Is your friend an adult? I don't want to be a dower but I don't want you to be hurt.


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## Huntinfamily (Aug 14, 2010)

I will admit after reading the first page of comments I skimmed the next two but feel like adding my .02 cents and this is coming from my personal experience. When I got my first Molly Mule she had been in a pasture for 2 years with almost no human contact and no other animals. She was going to be put down and I felt bad for her so I brought her home as a project. I rode a lot as a kid but hadn't been in the saddle for nearly 20 years. She was very very standoffish and bucked like a wild bronco when saddled. First I had to accept that I was in WAY over my head and get help. I researched and interviewed "horse trainers" until I found one that would train me as well as her. I found a lot that claimed to be trainers but just wanted that 30 0r 40 bucks to come to the farm, give a few pointers and leave. When I found one that really cared about training me as well as my Mule we got to work. One thing she said (and I think someone else on this thread said) is that it will take 6 months for her to learn to fully trust me. Sure enough almost 6 months to the day it was like someone flipped a switch and we have a bond that can't be broken. She will go anywhere I ask her to go and I have learned to trust her judgement on a trail. I would strongly recommend researching and hiring a trainer that will work with you and your horse together building a bond of trust. You and your horse will learn together, to work together. 
My Mule, that broke my wifes arm bucking her off, kicked me in the face, kicked me in the ribs hard enough to break one will now stand still when I crawl under her and in between her feet, let me stand on her back and drag a 12 by twenty tarp over top of her. She is now learning to push cattle. It all comes down to training for both of you


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

So glad to hear you're starting to enjoy your horse. I spent 30 years training horses-the most important time was the last week when the owner would come out to learn how to work with their horse. Don't be afraid of dreaming about doing things-just be sure to work your way to them as a team. I used to give some lessons too and the hardest part was getting the rider to realize that your body and mind give signals-good or bad-all the time you're with your horse. It's nothing to stew about-it's how horses communicate among themselves so it's natural for them to try to interpret our body language the way they would another horse. One of my favorite exercises was to have the rider walk their horse on a loose rein-rein hand resting on the horn. I'd tell them to look the way they wanted to go, not touch the rein. Always got a kick out of the look of surprise when the horse went that way. It happened because the horse was reading the body signals from the rider that usually went along with rein and leg cues. Always remember your horse is a horse. It does not think like a human-it thinks like a horse. You can train them into not reacting like a horse but you can never make them think like anything but a horse. You said they turnout at your barn. Spend some time just watching them interact. Watch how the boss horse moves the rest out of its space. You might see just the slightest flick of an ear and the rest will move away. If that's all you see then the rest have already learned that that is the first request for space. If it's ignored then she might sling her head their way or pin her ears. Next will be bared teeth or maybe a quick nip. Only the real dullards will get the final spin around and both hind feet. Watch two horses scratching. The subordinate one will try a number of places on the boss-when it gets the right spot then boss will scratch back. If it doesn't get 'the' spot it might get a quick go away nip and another will get the chance. The more you see them use their body language the easier it will be to see how to use yours to get the reaction you want. Good Luck Above all ENJOY the time with her. Happiness is contagious-even to horses. Sorry this was so long-I thought I hated giving riding lessons!


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

In my opinion there is NOTHING more important than actual time spent with the horse ,I've seen it more than once an owner would show up to a barn 1-2 times a week and the horse wouldn't even come out of their stall but would follow the barn help around like a puppy .


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

The one who feeds and waters and cares for the horse is going to build a relationship with that horse much faster than some schmoe who shows up once or twice a week and makes the horse do stuff. The Icelandic we have here for boarding will do anything I ask him to, but his owner still gets the cold shoulder.


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