# question about lgds



## boundarybunnyco (Sep 7, 2011)

I live in n. idaho. my horses are in a fenced area woven wire of field fence that is like 7 feet tall. I also put two by six boards all around the exterior. the only area a predator could really get in is by digging around the gates. wolves are getting bolder.
last fall my neighbor saw two wolves circling my fenced horse pens, and my large 20 year old gelding was rearing and snorting and stamping and running the mares away from the fence. a few weeks later my parents stopped by while I was at work. they saw two wolves also, and took pictures. these wolves were hanging out in the forest nearby, but weren't shy about crossing the farmland to get to livestock. we also have tons of coyotes. cats here are disposable. I've lost soooo many chickens and guineas. we live about 25 miles from the canadian border. what breed dog would you recommend for my situation? i'd like the dog(s) to live inside the horse enclosure. there are several shelters and a small barn they could live in.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Any of the larger breeds could do the job, but horses and canines often won't get along

http://www.lgd.org/


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

My Great Pyr stays outside the horse's pastures and enclosures. For two reasons: we have a pony who would stomp the life out of him and secondly, horses kick out and play rough. They could seriously injure or kill the dog without meaning to.
I seriously doubt your horses are in any danger. I can't even imagine wolves digging specifically around gates to get to horses that could and most likely would, kick the life out of the wolves. Horses are fast and pretty efficient at protecting themselves. We have wolves here too and while we have the LGD, wolves killing horses are not really anything that any horse people I know in Bonner or Boundary Counties worry about.

It's weird that you have coyotes and wolves at the same time. Around here the coyotes stay far away when wolves are in the area.


----------



## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

take a look at http://www.lgd.org/ I recommend a great pyr. 

I suggest you get 1 and grow him/her yo for 16-18 months and then bring in another pup that is the opposite sex. They need to be fenced so they won't get attacked or chase while attacking.

LGD's are fearless and the idea of a LGD on a farm is to foil the element of surprise the predator needs. They bark and are your second line of defense as the first line is fencing.

Even two dogs can be overtaken by a pack or serious mountain lion.. it is their fearlessness standing at a fence defending their charges that makes them worth having. 

I think every farm ought to have at least 1 LGD!


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

boundarybunnyco said:


> I live in n. idaho. my horses are in a fenced area woven wire of field fence that is like 7 feet tall. I also put two by six boards all around the exterior. the only area a predator could really get in is by digging around the gates. wolves are getting bolder.
> last fall my neighbor saw two wolves circling my fenced horse pens, and my large 20 year old gelding was rearing and snorting and stamping and running the mares away from the fence. a few weeks later my parents stopped by while I was at work. they saw two wolves also, and took pictures. these wolves were hanging out in the forest nearby, but weren't shy about crossing the farmland to get to livestock. we also have tons of coyotes. cats here are disposable. I've lost soooo many chickens and guineas. we live about 25 miles from the canadian border. what breed dog would you recommend for my situation? i'd like the dog(s) to live inside the horse enclosure. there are several shelters and a small barn they could live in.


You do realize, no matter what breed you get, that your puppies (yes puppIES because one won't cut it) will not be able to do anything for you for the first year. You realize I hope, it will take you patrolling and making a presence. You also realize wolves can go over or under (if motivated enough) a fence like that (suggest making it hot - ie., hot wire or electronet). That they are coming that close already is a very serious concern. You own firearms, I hope...and won't be shy about firing off warning shots at the wolves? In other words, will an LGD save you? No. Two might give them pause to think but again, not for long if they are hungry enough and bring the rest of the pack along. Your fence sounds good but if they are already that close, that is not a good sign. What ever you buy, please don't put it out there alone and expect miracles and don't put pups out there alone EVER. They are an open invitation for the wolves to breech the fence snatch them off and take off with their meal(s). You should bring everything in as close as you can at night. And stop just looking at those wolves, get aggressive, chase them off, fire at them....if they think there is no resistance there, trust me, they'll keep coming back and closer every time....

As we have pontificated elsewhere on this board and on other boards no LGD/LGD's are instant fix alls - when you are dealing with wolves in particular, you are on a whole different level now. YOU must make them know you are not to be tested, and again, that means rocking them, shooting at them (and if you 'miss' and hit one that is what shovels and tight lips are for). I cannot stress enough how no puppy, no breed alone, can save you. Until you run adult dogs you must plan on a lot of vigilance and deterrents. Go to the USDA website....use fladry (if you don't know what it is look it up). Bring your stock in closer. You should be doing all this before you even go puppy shopping, IMHO. Good luck.


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

I didn't read the other replies so forgive me if this is a repeat .

Horses ARE in danger of wolves , I saw on the news of a horse taken down by wolves just this past year over in western MT , so it is very possible .

I see nothing wrong with putting an LGD in with horses ? Our's are in with our 4 horses , donkey and pony . The dog will learn to stay out of the way ,and if it has a "safe place" to get away ,all the better . I just wouldn't put a tiny puppy in with them is all .


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

horsepoor21 said:


> I didn't read the other replies so forgive me if this is a repeat .
> 
> Horses ARE in danger of wolves , I saw on the news of a horse taken down by wolves just this past year over in western MT , so it is very possible .
> 
> I see nothing wrong with putting an LGD in with horses ? Our's are in with our 4 horses , donkey and pony . The dog will learn to stay out of the way ,and if it has a "safe place" to get away ,all the better . I just wouldn't put a tiny puppy in with them is all .


My LGD learned to stay away from the horses by being kicked in the ribs. Luckily, it wasn't his head. Hopefully, BBC's dog won't have to learn the same way, because lots of dogs don't survive horse kicks. My dogs all give the horses a wide berth. She'd be better off having the LGD patrol so the wolves don't even come near the horses.
Also, if the fence won't keep the wolves out, how will it keep the LGD's in? Mine have gone under, over and through fences, electric and otherwise.


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

I didn't mean she HAD to keep her dogs in with the horses . 
Fine ,get a breed like a Maremma or Kangal that stick around and then no worries if the fence won't hold them in :happy:


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

horsepoor21 said:


> I didn't mean she HAD to keep her dogs in with the horses .
> Fine ,get a breed like a Maremma or Kangal that stick around and then no worries if the fence won't hold them in :happy:


That was what she posted. She has woven wire fence and the only way teh wolves can get in is by digging by the gates. Then how will the dogs get out if a horse goes after them. And many of them do. Out 13H POA has a real hate on for canines.


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

I just thought maybe she wanted them fenced in with the horses because that's the only fence she has ,and is worried about them running off , or getting hit by a car or whatnot .

it's not hard to put a chain link kennel in , one with a narrow doorway or even just a square cut out of it so a horse or pony could not fit in it , or make a dog house or whatever . There's lots of ways to build something a horse and pony couldn't get into .

Now if she's not near a road or doesn't have close neighbors than by all means ,keep the dogs on the outside of the fence ,which is why I mentioned a few breeds (that I have experience with) that are known to stay close compared to Great Pyrs .

I'm not trying to argue , just throwing some ideas out there


----------



## boundarybunnyco (Sep 7, 2011)

let me make a few more points. yes I realize a puppy can't get out there and run off a wolf. yes I realize they have to be raised with the livestock they are meant to protect. 
my fencing like i said, is seven feet tall and the bottom is all underground. the areas at the gates are my main worry, but even there it's pretty secure. inside the big enclosure, the horses are in another paddock. that fencing is also field fence. there are several shelters in the different paddocks. this used to be an alpaca farm. my horses do not chase, kick, stomp, bite, or otherwise pay any attention to my current dogs. one blue heeler, one basset hound, one boston terrier, and two chihuahuas. they also don't bother the cats or poultry that get in with them. so I don't think they would hurt an LGD.Yes we have firearms, and yes we do have both wolves AND coyotes. The first year we lived here, we lost thirty chickens, one chihuahua, and seventeen guineas. Most of the birds were not even eaten, just torn to shreds and spread all over the place. We've lost a few birds since, and a couple cats. Every thing is securely fenced in now. Also, I can't bring my stock in any closer than it is, because the horse pasture is already basically fifteen feet from my house! everything else is behind the house, and locked in the barn at night.


----------



## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Two years ago we sold a pair of Great Pyrenees to a lady in the Bonners Ferry area - and she raised horses, and yes, they had wolves. The dogs are doing a great job for her. No, they can't handle a pack of wolves. But they are a deterrent and a first responder for alerting the owner and the horses. A good deterrent will keep predators moving down the road (or into the forest) to an easier mark, and then that's all you need.

We aren't that far from you Boundarybunny, so if you would like to visit and chat, just send me a PM.  

BTW: We are next to 15,000 acres of timberland just teeming with wildlife - deer, elk, moose, grouse, coyotes, mountain lion, and yes, I fear, some wolves (at least there have been several sightings about 7 miles from here). We still have not lost any livestock to predators in the 9 years that we have had Pyrenees - and we don't have nearly the drooly fortress that boundary bunny has.... and we have predator's perfect foods - goats and chickens, LOL. Proof is in the pudding!

PS Our Great Pyrenees don't have to be "raised" with the animals that they are meant to guard. If they know it is mine - they will guard it. I'll have to check for the link to a little story I wrote a few years ago about our GP Kodiak (on HT).


----------



## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Found it! True story...

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=276861



> Little story for you all...
> 
> Friday morning my 9 year old son forgot to latch the gate to the calves pen. The pen is actually located on our next door neighbor's property and we can not see it from the house - or anywhere on our property really. We live on the gentle side of a mountain - steep in places, flat in places, mostly gently sloping to the south. There is a lot of underbrush and tons of pine trees so that visibility is rather limited, except on roads, which rarely run straight for long.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I know the horses+donkey here rally together and then one will tear after the coyotes with the rest in tow. No real danger to the equines IMO. We also have pet dogs they tolerate but obviously dislike to a point. I'm sure the horses could be trained to accept the dog's pressence. They'll never surrender their insinct to protect themselves though and the dog could get hurt if the horses get riled up and can't manouver out of the way. If its with the horses how will the LGD do anything to save your poultry?


----------



## boundarybunnyco (Sep 7, 2011)

My poultry are safely fenced in. I have a blue heeler that is their nanny. Obviously she can't fight off predators, but she does herd the flock into the barn when she senses danger. I was given a flock of ducks, the heeler came with. The poultry have access to the barn via a "chicken door".
anyhow, I'm more concerned with losing a horse, or the calves we are going to purchase. If I lose a three dollar chicken, or even all of them ... that would suck.
If I lose my many thousand dollar mare, or her filly, or my long time companion 20 yr old gelding, I would be devastated.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

boundarybunnyco said:


> Every thing is securely fenced in now. Also, I can't bring my stock in any closer than it is, because the horse pasture is already basically fifteen feet from my house! everything else is behind the house, and locked in the barn at night.


Why not invest in a good strong fence charger and forget about the dogs. Lots cheaper than a dog, no vet costs, no feed costs, no worry about it running away, no worry about something killing it.


----------



## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

copperpennykids said:


> PS Our Great Pyrenees don't have to be "raised" with the animals that they are meant to guard. If they know it is mine - they will guard it. .



yes! yes! yes! if the pup or dog knows it is yours they will guard it! they don't have to be raised with livestock. Some of you have seen a photo of one of my females curled up on my dining room floor with a goat kid... she was not raised with livestock, but knows it is her job to protect anything inside the fences.


----------

