# Landscape fabric in raised beds?



## MidwestMatthew (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm doing square foot gardening in four 4x8 raised beds. They're 8 inches deep so a bit more than Mel recommended in the book. I put landscape fabric down when I built them last year, but now I'm wondering if I should pull it out to allow deeper root development.

Any thoughts?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm having trouble following this. You are allowing for deeper root penetration by pulling he landscape fabric out? Does this mean that the landscape fabric is under the soil? If so, why? It would seem to have no purpose aside from preventing earth worms from moving into the bed (not a good thing).
Please explain.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Certain grasses will grow right thru a raised bed. Bermuda is a good example. It grew right up thru my 12" raised bed and made quite a mess. Putting down fabric is a valid choice and you should try to be more openminded to other peoples situations and a little less OH MY GOD THAT MAKES NO SENSE. 

8 inches of good soil will give you good performance from a lot of vegetables. More is better of course. If you can remove the fabric without creating other problems, I would recommend it. Regardless, fabric is not the magic bullet it is touted as, and many folks, including me, would not use it in any situation. But you do what is best for your situation. Just remember the soil down there still has all the same qualities which prompted you to abandon it and create raised beds. 

Good luck with your beds.


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## MidwestMatthew (Mar 12, 2016)

Landscape fabric is under the soil in the raised beds. It was originally for weed control, and I'm pretty sure it was recommended in the book (I'm a new gardener, so I followed the book closely). I've just been having second thoughts about it this year.

Incidentally, it's too late to do anything about it this year as I've already replanted the beds. But I could take it out this fall.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Yes, it comes recommended by many sources as a valid choice. You did nothing wrong. You always do what you need to do and dont let others tell you how it is wrong or evil. 

How did it turn out last year? Are you growing vegetables known for long tap roots where additional depth might benefit? Are you enjoying your new hobby?

I hope you grew at least one tomato. I think of all the foods, it has the most remarkable improvement over store bought.


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## MidwestMatthew (Mar 12, 2016)

Things didn't grow great last year, but I think that was due to taking Mel at his word when he said you can't over water Mel's Mix. It turns out that you definitely can, and I did for most of the year. Once I quit watering so much, things took off pretty well.

I'm growing mainly carrots, tomatoes, peppers, basil, lettuce, cucumbers, peas, and beans. There are quite a few other things out there (peanuts, ground cherries, melons, etc.), but only in experimental numbers.

Cucumbers are our favorites. Last year only one vine made it, and supplied us with just enough cukes to be tantalizing. We're doing eight squares of them this year (sixteen plants). I'm hopeful off having more cucumbers than we know what to do with. 

An interesting thing happened with the carrots last year. They grew right down to the landscape fabric, then flattened out at the bottom and got really fat. Overall mass didn't seem to suffer, but they sure looked unusual!


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Haha. Thats pretty funny about the carrots. See, you are already learning how to adapt general guidelines to your specific location. Good job. 

Tomato, pepper, and root crops (as you saw) can benefit from deep soil, though they will make do with what they have (you also saw). How is the soil under there? Roots can sometimes struggle when they reach a completely foriegn soil, loam to heavy clay. They can treat that just like hitting cement or landscape fabric. Makes sense if you think about it. 

My family loves cucumbers. I wont eat the things. But most of what I grow I do not eat. I grow them because I love to grow stuff. I have 100' of cucumber this year in 5 varieties. I hope they are hungry. 

Btw, when planting tomato, pull off lower leaves and plant them deeply. All those little "hairs" will become roots, supercharging your plant. You can even dig a horizontal trench and lay them in sideways. This might be a problem in a Mel bed. 

I tried the Mel. Didnt have great success in that density. I guess I just didnt have the knack for it. Fortunately, I now have the room to do traditional row gardening again. I just got 8" of rain. I might be looking at a replanting here.


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## Jokarva (Jan 17, 2010)

I have chicken wire in the bottoms of my beds to keep critters out, I guess that's working fine. But I noticed last year several volunteer tomato plants came up from under landscape fabric at the edge of the porch. They grew to be huge and had huge roots.

So this year I added a layer of shredded leaves and covered my beds with landscape fabric hoping to duplicate those plants. We'll see....but I'm not sure how those roots would get past fabric 8 inches down.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

His roots wont get past the fabric. They have 8" and no more. There is another option of course if the native soil is bad; go up. Add another rung up border and fill with more soil. This doubles root zone without using native soil. 

I wonder how much natural selection helped create your turbotomatoes? Having to grow in a completely hostile area will mean only the most vigorous seed would germinate and grow. Sometimes I wonder if our help helps at all.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I had 15, 3x12 raised beds.

I tilled the spot before I built the raised bed, and did not put down any type of weed barrier. 
My soil was clay......lots of it.

I planted my plants, laid down news paper (2-3 pages thick) and wetted it.
Then I piled on about 8-12 inches of fresh cut (untreated) grass.

I pulled very few weeds....VERY few.
At the end of the season, I pulled all the dead plants and turned the grass and newspaper under and let it rot over the winter.
Turned it again the following spring.
Worms loved it.
Plants loved it.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...-propagation/427733-raised-bed-questions.html

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...-plant-propagation/439037-gardening-tips.html

This old thread shows what I am talking about


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

As long as you do not have a rhizome spreading grass, a barrier is not needed and will give you little benefit and some harm. 

He followed a book written for people in all growing areas, even those with rhizome grasses. It says put down a barrier. He will have to decide if removing it is in his best interest.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

If you plant a deep rooted plant just take a spade and cross cut fabric in that area. better yet instead of removing it just go to town with a spade or shovel and cut slits everywhere the roots will find the hole to get past the fabric. I use it in the bottom of beds from time to time as a weed preventer but typically use more topsoil than 8"


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## Ellendra (Jul 31, 2013)

Depending on the brand and type of fabric, you may not need to pull it up. From my experience, most of them break down within a year, sometimes two. I've only found one that lasted longer than that, and it was pretty expensive.


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## buffalocreek3 (Apr 16, 2014)

Ellendra said:


> Depending on the brand and type of fabric, you may not need to pull it up. From my experience, most of them break down within a year, sometimes two. I've only found one that lasted longer than that, and it was pretty expensive.


Yes that's my experience also. Fabric won't last much longer than a year. I put mine down to prevent moles from coming up into the beds. So far they haven't but probably will when it rots out. I sowed my beds with worms last year and have spotted several this year.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

MidwestMatthew said:


> I'm doing square foot gardening in four 4x8 raised beds. They're 8 inches deep so a bit more than Mel recommended in the book. I put landscape fabric down when I built them last year, but now I'm wondering if I should pull it out to allow deeper root development.
> 
> Any thoughts?


The Bartholomew method creates the "perfect" beginner's garden by placing the bed directly on top of the ground at the six inch depth. Some weeds _could _germinate at that depth and prevent it from being perfect.....in this case, meaning that how is a beginner to know whether what just germinated is really what he/she planted---or, a weed? Or worse, vice versa....and instead of lettuce, it's pepper grass, which sure doesn't taste like the lettuce from the grocery store...... 

Luckily, most garden vegetable plants don't really have to depend on deep root penetration--and especially not if they are laying in a mix of near "perfect" soil mix, complete with all the food and water they need. Ever see a root bound cabbage plant from the garden center(or Wal-Mart) doing just fine--just as long as the attendant gives it a shot of fertilizer water each and every day so it never gets hungry or thirsty? Give it 0.5 cubic foot and it will produce a pretty big cabbage, if the vermiculite and peat moss can hold it up. The fine hair roots on the carrot did that, too, and kept feeding it until it hit its nose on the bottom barrier. No big deal--you can plant a blunt Nantes type instead of a long, skinny Imperator.

The barrier is okay as it is(and may likely rot in time anyway). But, actually, the newest trend is to grow vegetables in completely raised planter boxes--on legs--and they will do just as well as the square foot garden on the ground--plus, you would never have to bend over......and of course, it has a very solid floor under it, instead of a fabric barrier. Basically it is all some variation of growing something in a container or pot.

Ever wonder what's in Mel's mix?: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/71/713a8028-5799-4349-bf02-ed7a19f198e2.pdf

Mostly it's inert stuff, _mixed with compost. _And remember, at least half of the nutrients in that compost got used up--or leached out if you added lots of water--last year. And that inert stuff--mostly carbon materials--will start robbing the remaining nitrogen as it tries to compost itself.... So, if you want to have any good luck this year, you'll need to add some more--lots more. I would suggest at least one bag of composted cow manure per bed, plus a pound of bone meal per bed, plus, keep adding handfuls of alfalfa meal and fish meal around the veggies on a two week cycle--and stick your finger in lots of places before you water them.

Hope this will help.

geo


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

OK, not beating up on someone, just confused. If the soil is on top of the weed barrier won't the weeds just grow in the soil? How will weed barrier eight inches under the soil prevent weeds?
I realize that in different parts of the country there are different situations. Bermudagrass was mentioned, something we don't deal with in the Northeast.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> OK, not beating up on someone, just confused. If the soil is on top of the weed barrier won't the weeds just grow in the soil? How will weed barrier eight inches under the soil prevent weeds?
> I realize that in different parts of the country there are different situations. Bermudagrass was mentioned, something we don't deal with in the Northeast.


As Groucho Marx used to say, "Say the secret woid and get a hundred dollars." on his old time quiz show, the secret word in the OP's first question was _Mel........ _That refers to Mel Bartholomew, who wrote the book, and promotes the theory of "Square Foot Gardening", that of growing plants in a gridded off box placed on the ground or on a patio. It's a pretty good way for beginning gardeners to get started without having to turn over a forkful of "real" soil, or to deal with weeds(which they can't identify). Much is made about "Mel's Mix"--a type of growing medium that he formulated in his book--and which his organization now sells.......By and large, it is made up of peat moss, vermiculite, and compost. He doesn't reveal just how that compost is made, nor the fertilizer equivalent it contains, but that's where the fertility comes from, and it must be fairly weed-seed free at the time of purchase. The rest of the Mel's mix is pretty much inert--so basically, you'll get no weeds growing IN it. And with a weed barrier on the soil below, there shouldn't be too many coming from down there, either.

Here's a sample of "Square Foot Gardening" from the Bartholomew website:

http://www.melbartholomew.com/all-the-basics-of-square-foot-gardening/

There isn't much of a dictionary of gardening terms. When the OP said 4 X 8 raised beds, we jumped to the conclusion he meant he dug down and stirred up the original soil, then made a raised bed, then added the Mel's Mix,--then put boards around it. Thus the confusion. Had he said 4 X 8 _Bartholomew Boxes_ most of us would have known what he meant--or at least could have looked it up before making any judgmental statements......(and I'm not talking about you).

Hope this can clear up any confusion.

geo


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Naw, but thanks for the try. The vast majority of the weeds we deal with either blow in with the wind are are already present in the soil and start to germinate when they are brought up to the surface.
Weed barrier used to be very popular in landscaping, and in some places still is but when placed under organic mulch they eventually cause more problems then cure. As the mulch decomposes it becomes an excellent starting media for weeds. Many if the weeds with fibrous root systems will actually have roots penetrate the pores of the weed fabric making them almost impossible to remove. As I stated before the weed fabric prevents earthworms from taking the decomposed mulch deeper into the soil. We've found that a 3"-4" layer of mulch provides the best control for weeds. The existing weed seeds in the soil will not germinate and the ones that blow in will still appear but are easily removed. At least that's how it is in the Northeast.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

So you are saying you are completely unable to conceptualise or comprehend the problems or situations of any people who do not have the exact same growing conditions as you, and reject any and all differences of style or form that do not match your way of gardening?

Wow. They are brand new gardeners. They bought a book. They followed directions in good faith. Way to welcome.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Friend, I was just explaining the experience that is common in my area. It's shared information. That's all. You may have noticed that there are more then one book written on the subject of gardening. In the 46 years I have done so professionally many idea's have come and gone. to be honest, gardening is very much an example of the old school is the best school. The bottom line is that a well managed garden is a labor intensive affair. This is where that saying about having a "green thumb" comes from.
Anyways, why are your panties in a bunch? Have I entered into your personal domain? I'm not here to fight.
Have a nice life.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

MidwestMatthew said:


> I'm doing *square foot gardening* in four 4x8 *raised beds*. They're 8 inches deep so a bit more than *Mel* recommended in the *book*. I put landscape fabric down when I built them last year, but now I'm wondering if I should pull it out to allow deeper root development.
> 
> Any thoughts?


The OP gave many many clues precisely what they had done and why. Now maybe you have professionally gardened for 46 years and managed to never hear of square foot gardening or the person responsible for making it a mainstream practice, and by extension, making gardening a better possibility for millions of new urban gardeners. 

You did not come into the thread sharing your vast experience with landscape fabric as described in the Mel book. You seem to know, in spite of 2 links and long explanations, absolutely nothing about the practice. Might as well be "sharing" 46 years of plumbing experience in that case. 

Reread your first response. It was condescending.


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## MidwestMatthew (Mar 12, 2016)

Hey guys, it's OK, really.  I've appreciated all the responses and am learning from all of you.

We chose square foot gardening for a couple of reasons. First, with two businesses and three kids age 4 and under, it's imperative that our garden provide as much yield for as little time as possible. Second, we don't have our place in the country yet, nor a place to"hide" a garden in our relatively well-kept neighborhood, so it's also vital that our garden look acceptable from the street. Put those two factors together, and square foot gardening seemed to only method that would work for us...at least for now.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Matthew, do not feel a need to justify your choices. I am just glad that you have taken up gardening, so long it remains a pleasurable experience for you and your family. It can provide hours of excellent family time as well as food. 

I get so put off when good hearted people get pounced because they do something different. Mention you bought a tiller, here comes a certain group to compare you to Satan. Put out a fertilizer, you are probably on a first name basis in Hell to some. God help you if you buy an insecticide.

I do not agree with all that. If notill is truly better, sooner or later a gardener will get there. Same applies for fertility and pest control. But if that never happens, it should still be OK and accepted as a valid choice done for reasons that should not matter to anyone but the person making the choice. 

Hope this years garden buries you in good times and even some food.


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## Jokarva (Jan 17, 2010)

Took my idea of shredded leaves topped with landscape fabric and used it on some of my container tomatoes and peppers. Half my pots I topped with an inch of shredded leaves and covered with the fabric (which I washed first, just to make myself feel better) pinned down in place. It should keep weeds out, but mostly I'm hoping it'll cut down on the watering needed in deep summer.

I only did half in case this turned out to be a really bad idea....we'll see.


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