# Why are Modern "Christians" so judgmental?



## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.

Christ redeems ALL sins. Every single one of them. Even ones that are abominations. 

Who are we to carry out justice in his name? When our so called "justice" involves death, who are we to, deprive that person the chance of redemption in Christ's eyes?

There are people who Would you believe that that our country was founded on so called "Christian" beliefs. 

Any person, who take's the time to do google searches on the tthem
they read, rather than accepting the half whole fish, , and reads what they find, will eventually get to there own truth.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Sounds like you read the parts you like and disregard the rest.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Yes, but you can't live in those sins. Paul talked about how some were "former" this and thats.

The only unforgivable sin is unbelief in Christ.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Rakkasan said:


> It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.
> 
> Christ redeems ALL sins. Every single one of them. Even ones that are abominations.
> 
> ...


Good luck!


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

The reason is, because they just aren't quite there yet. Most of them never will be, and you or I aren't going to get them there. Their beliefs are simplistic, and shallow. It is more comfortable that way.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

It could be said that modern American government and society reflects Christ's teachings more than it did at the nation's founding.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Rakkasan said:


> It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.
> 
> Christ redeems ALL sins. Every single one of them. Even ones that are abominations.
> 
> ...


Executing a murderer does not deny him salvation. That is between him and Christ. 1John says a murderer cannot have eternal life abiding in him. God told them to execute murderers in the OT and even told them why. Makes good sense and we would be far better off if we obeyed it today. BTW, it applied only to premeditated murder. It made no exception for insanity and required at least 2 witnesses to the crime. Under those laws, Loughner would be toast by now instead of haggling over his sanity.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

vicker said:


> The reason is, because they just aren't quite there yet. Most of them never will be, and you or I aren't going to get them there. Their beliefs are simplistic, and shallow. It is more comfortable that way.


Maybe you consider God's Word simplistic and shallow but I don't. There is no middle way for some things. There is only God's way ( if we want a decent society) and the wrong way (like we have now).


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Perhaps you quote God's word as you quote my words.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

What I'm referring to is the way you quoted me, and then proceeded to interpret my words in a way that is far, far from what I said. A common thing that I see so often here. I know what God's word says, because I have read the whole thing many times, with fasting and prayer. It seldom says what I want it to say.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

vicker said:


> Perhaps you quote God's word as you quote my words.


Nope. God's Word has real value. Yours...uh..not so much.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

vicker said:


> What I'm referring to is the way you quoted me, and then proceeded to interpret my words in a way that is far, far from what I said. A common thing that I see so often here. I know what God's word says, because I have read the whole thing many times, with fasting and prayer. It seldom says what I want it to say.


But you said their beliefs were simplistic and shallow. I would say most Christians get their beliefs from God's Word. You are assuming you views are right and others are wrong. That's what the OP is doing also.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Too late, too tired and not enough popcorn for this one tonight. The OP doesn't just stir pots, he jumps into them with both feet. I will ponder this one and try to respond tomorrow. It is important.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

See, this is why I am not going to have this conversation. You did it again.


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

Rakkasan said:


> It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.
> 
> Christ redeems ALL sins. Every single one of them. Even ones that are abominations.
> 
> ...


Nobody is carrying out justice in Christ's name. That person is NOT deprived the chance for redemption. His redemption will be known in heaven not earth! When you make the statement "why are all Christians judgemental", aren't you judging other Christians? Aren't you judging the Christian beliefs of our founders? I think our forefathers did a pretty good job to start with and what has happened since that has gotten out of control.


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

I love it when people read the Bible front to back and think they understand it. If that were true there would be only one Christian church. Everybody takes what they were taught and learned on their own to apply to their own needs. I believe that if people were to be truly Christian, you should follow the teaching of Christ only and use the other books of the New Testament as an advisory source. All other teachings in the NT are interpretation of what Christ said. I also think the Old Testament is a fantastic telling of Jewish history and laws, nothing more. Too many churches quote OT as fire and brimstone to scare people. The OT is not rellevent once Christ gave his life for us. Christian church would be far better off teaching what Christ taught and stop interpreting for Him. I have a strong belief in God and Christ but do NOT attend a "Christian" church because I find people in most churches act like the Pharisees of Christ's time.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

bignugly said:


> I love it when people read the Bible front to back and think they understand it. If that were true there would be only one Christian church. Everybody takes what they were taught and learned on their own to apply to their own needs. I believe that if people were to be truly Christian, you should follow the teaching of Christ only and use the other books of the New Testament as an advisory source. All other teachings in the NT are interpretation of what Christ said. I also think the Old Testament is a fantastic telling of Jewish history and laws, nothing more. Too many churches quote OT as fire and brimstone to scare people. The OT is not rellevent once Christ gave his life for us. Christian church would be far better off teaching what Christ taught and stop interpreting for Him. I have a strong belief in God and Christ but do NOT attend a "Christian" church because I find people in most churches act like the Pharisees of Christ's time.


 +100. I've been trying to explain this very thing to some folks recently and they simply don't understand it. Not they don't agree mind you, but can't wrap their heads around the idea that as a Christian, isn't the word of Jesus the only one that really counts? OT is for Jews, NT is for Christians. And even then the only things we can be 100% sure of are direct quotes from Christ himself.


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## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

whodunit said:


> Yes, but you can't live in those sins. Paul talked about how some were "former" this and thats.
> 
> The only unforgivable sin is unbelief in Christ.



See what Jesus said at (Matthew 12:32) For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

Only God knows if a person has committed the unforgivable sin. However, Paul shed light on this matter when he wrote: &#8220;If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.&#8221; (Hebrews 10:26,-27) A willful person acts deliberately, or is &#8220;obstinately and often perversely self-willed.&#8221; (Webster&#8217;s New Collegiate Dictionary) Anyone willfully and obstinately continuing to practice sin after he knows the truth is not forgiven. Hence, it is not so much the sin itself as it is the heart condition, the degree of willfulness involved, that affects whether the sin is forgivable or not. On the other hand, what is likely the case when an erring Christian is deeply disturbed about his wrongdoing? His great concern probably indicates that he has not, in fact, committed an unforgivable sin


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## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

InvalidID said:


> +100. I've been trying to explain this very thing to some folks recently and they simply don't understand it. Not they don't agree mind you, but can't wrap their heads around the idea that as a Christian, isn't the word of Jesus the only one that really counts? OT is for Jews, NT is for Christians. And even then the only things we can be 100% sure of are direct quotes from Christ himself.



That not what the Bible says;

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

All Scripture includes the Hebrew Scriptures and all other writing in the Canon.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Zephaniah said:


> That not what the Bible says;
> 
> (2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
> 
> All Scripture includes the Hebrew Scriptures and all other writing in the Canon.


 Who do we turn to when there is a conflict of scripture? And what do we count as scripture, as there is a lot left out of the bible? I'm sticking with Jesus personally. I'm thinking he's got the low down on what God wants.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

When Christ died, all sin, past, present, and future were forgiven. Can you still sin, of course, but sin will kill you (The wages of sin is death). Now, as a Christian, I believe that if God has forgiven, I have no right to hold sin against anyone, because He has also forgiven me. However, that does not mean that the person forgiven does not face the consequences of their actions. Forgiveness does not necessarily a lack of consequences, but it's not up to me to force those consequences. Instead, the consequences will be brought by law or nature (which may be sickness, mental disfunction, etc.)


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

vicker said:


> The reason is, because they just aren't quite there yet. Most of them never will be, and you or I aren't going to get them there. Their beliefs are simplistic, and shallow. It is more comfortable that way.


That's pretty judgmental of you


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Deep word study is a good thing!!
Knowing the Hebrew (for the OT) and the Greek (for the NT) is SO very helpful in understanding the passages. 

An example is the word "love".
There are 5 different words in greek for our word love.
One means 'friend'
One means 'love in the bedroom sense'
One means 'Agape' which is God's love.....

When we just insert the english word love, it looses it's original intent.
I highly recommend a word study in the original languages. That will clear up a lot of questions!! 
HTH


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

farmmom said:


> When Christ died, all sin, past, present, and future were forgiven. Can you still sin, of course, but sin will kill you (The wages of sin is death). Now, as a Christian, I believe that if God has forgiven, I have no right to hold sin against anyone, because He has also forgiven me. However, that does not mean that the person forgiven does not face the consequences of their actions. Forgiveness does not necessarily a lack of consequences, but it's not up to me to force those consequences. Instead, the consequences will be brought by law or nature (which may be sickness, mental disfunction, etc.)


This is basically what I believe. Christ suffered for all sins so we don't have to IF..and it's a BIG IF...we repent. For those that do not repent, that atonement isn't in effect and they will suffer for their own sins. Repentance means doing your best to make up for the sin and that includes subjecting yourself to the law of the land if the sin is a crime against the law. The death penalty doesn't condemn anyone but rather, *can be *a way for them to at least partially make up for the sin they committed. 

By the way- we have to have laws to be able to live together. If there were no laws how would we survive? If that system of laws includes a death penalty is a different debate. But obviously, from reading God's word, He believed in it for certain crimes and sins.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

I think that before Christians argue scripture with anyone they should read and contemplate on Matthew 7:6. There is only one way to interpret it.

"O"


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Are modern Christians really any more judgemental than Christians of the past? I find that difficult to believe.

If it seems so, it's my opinion that it is because so few today believe in absolutes of any kind, but to be a Christian, one must believe in the absoluteness of God and reject the spectrum of "OK"-ness that everyone else seems to be happy with. 

To pursue the "OK" is to reject the absolute goodness that God offers us through his son. It is popular to say these days, that "I'm perfect the way God made me", as if once created, you no longer need a concept of Good or Evil, Right or Wrong.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Yes the OT is good for teaching. Teaching how God wants things done. 
Christ had to come because man can not do things the way God demands in the OT. I have been having discussions about this for 10 years on a board I own. With women saying we have to wear dresses because of Duet. Now I am dresses only but not because of Duet. I am because it keeps me in mind of who I am. A DAUGHTER of the king. I am at all times to be a lady. Not brash and bold as a man. The new testament makes no demands on women's dress other than that it be modest. 

The NT tells of grace to cover those things the OT demands of us. 

We are to tell folks what the Bible says. We are not the judge, God will judge when a person dies if they did or did not accept the grace that belief in Christ brings. 

That is why I say Christianity is a Faith. The religious trappings come from men trying to work out their own Faith. 

As Christians it is our job to tell the world of sin and Christ's death so that we can be forgiven that sin. Some accept some prefer to live in sin. It is also our job to work to avoid sin. Some act like a Christian but are not, God knows the difference.

If you are a drunk, it is your job to quit drinking, if a liar to stop lying, if a glutton to quit over eating and so forth. It is my job to support and help you on that journey.

It is also told us to obey our laws and leaders unless they cross what God tells us to do. So if it is our law that murderers be put to death so be it. Whether or not he comes to grips and makes true peace with God before hand is between him and God.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

InvalidID said:


> Who do we turn to when there is a conflict of scripture? And what do we count as scripture, as there is a lot left out of the bible? I'm sticking with Jesus personally. I'm thinking he's got the low down on what God wants.


That's why it's important to study the Bible prayerfully. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit would lead us in all truths. It's only through the Holy Spirit that we can truly understand the scriptures.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Callieslamb said:


> This is basically what I believe. Christ suffered for all sins so we don't have to IF..and it's a BIG IF...we repent. For those that do not repent, that atonement isn't in effect and they will suffer for their own sins. Repentance means doing your best to make up for the sin and that includes subjecting yourself to the law of the land if the sin is a crime against the law. The death penalty doesn't condemn anyone but rather, *can be *a way for them to at least partially make up for the sin they committed.
> 
> By the way- we have to have laws to be able to live together. If there were no laws how would we survive? If that system of laws includes a death penalty is a different debate. But obviously, from reading God's word, He believed in it for certain crimes and sins.


EXACTLY! Salvation is a gift, it's up to each of us as individuals to either accept that gift or refuse it. No one can force another to accept it, all we can do is let them know it's there for them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

English Oliver said:


> I think that before Christians argue scripture with anyone they should read and contemplate on Matthew 7:6. There is only one way to interpret it.
> 
> "O"


Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.
Matthew 7:6

Just posting the scripture for others.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It could be said that modern American government and society reflects Christ's teachings more than it did at the nation's founding.


That's an interesting perspective. We've certainly institutionalized our provision for widows and orphans (i.e., Social Security).

A lot of Christians oppose that program, though. Funny, that!


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

Zephaniah said:


> That not what the Bible says;
> 
> (2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
> 
> All Scripture includes the Hebrew Scriptures and all other writing in the Canon.


Why don't people read everything before making a statement. Nothing was said about not using the OT or NT writings. All that was said is to use Christ's teaching as a guide and other scripture as resource. Christ cited the OT but still delivered His own message! I find most people cite scripture to reinforce their own beliefs and intimidate others. Christ was/is one of the greatest teachers of all time! Christ didn't cite OT to scare people to listen to His wisdom. Why would anybody need someone else to interpret what He taught? He was/is the ULTIMATE teacher. No man has or will have the ability to teach as He did!


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sonshine said:


> That's why it's important to study the Bible prayerfully. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit would lead us in all truths. It's only through the Holy Spirit that we can truly understand the scriptures.


 I agree with you but, I think (personal opinion warning) it's more important to simply pray. I fully believe that God will let you know if you're doing well or not if you care enough to ask. Considering the number of illiterate people in the world today and then, I don't think salvation is reserved only for those that can read.


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

Oggie said:


> It could be said that modern American government and society reflects Christ's teachings more than it did at the nation's founding.


I think modern government reflects more the attitude of the Pharisees than those of Christ! Our government is filled with self serving and greedy politicians that sit up there and say "Look how great I am" somewhat like the Pharisees in the Temple. Christ gave freely without regard for where that person was from or who he was. Can that be said of our politicians?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Rakkasan:
Please continue to ask questions and research the Christian faith. This is the way the journey starts for many new believers. I feel that God is stirring your soul. :goodjob:


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

InvalidID said:


> I agree with you but, I think (personal opinion warning) it's more important to simply pray. I fully believe that God will let you know if you're doing well or not if you care enough to ask. Considering the number of illiterate people in the world today and then, I don't think salvation is reserved only for those that can read.


People fail to understand during Christ's time very few were educated and that is why Christ taught using parables. The people could relate to what He was teaching with their every day lives without having to read or write.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

InvalidID said:


> I agree with you but, I think (personal opinion warning) it's more important to simply pray. I fully believe that God will let you know if you're doing well or not if you care enough to ask. Considering the number of illiterate people in the world today and then, I don't think salvation is reserved only for those that can read.


No, it's not reserved only for those that can read. The Holy spirit was sent to lead us in all truths. My DS can read, but not well enough to understand the Bible. Yet he is a Christian and has been since he was 7 yrs old. Even though they don't read, they still have to be able to hear the word of God and then act on that word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Without the Word of God a person would never know about the gift of salvation, or how to live in a manner that is pleasing to God. One area that Christians fail in is discipleship. Jesus didn't just share the word, he chose 12 men and spent most of his time teaching them and living a Holy life before them. We think that when a person goes to the altar and accepts Jesus that's all we need to do. But the reality is, they need a mature Christian more than ever after they first get saved and are usually abandoned before they reach spiritual maturity.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Everyone to some extinct is judgmental IMO, it doesn't really matter what your beliefs are.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Rakkasan-- Could you give a specific example about what you are saying? 

I do see a lot of judgmental attitudes within Christian church bodies at times. If someone new comes in the body will often have members who fault-find with their clothing, their life, their children, etc. Even on these boards you see people who wrap themselves in Christian garb yet complain about the way another church member raises their child or dresses their child or breeds their dog or a hundred other things. And, some things we see people do are wrong.... That is just true. But harsh judgement does come out of Christians at times with little compassion being shown at the same time.
And sometimes we get so busy petting our flesh about how holy and good we are while how sinful others are. It does happen. And it is wrong. That is just the truth. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. No human ever walks perfectly and holy in this world in the flesh because we just don't have that ability due to our flesh. Faith for salvation must lie in the blood of Jesus, His sacrifice in our place, alone. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Interestingly enough, a minister named Andrew Strom just wrote a piece on this topic which actually called out a lot of the "tea party" attitudes in American Christianity today, and how they are contrary to the teachings of Christ. We can't just hate people because they are poor, or born outside the US, or sick or have once committed sin, yet believe we are in the will of God. We can't laugh with limbaugh at poor people and believe that is Ok with the Lord. We can't hate people..... Christ died for people. The heartbeat of God is souls....souls.... souls. That doesn't mean we wink at sin, but you love the sinner because Christ died for the sinner.
So, in a way, you are making an observation. Believers need to have compassion for everyone in every walk of life in every place. And not just compassion, but respect, even honor, because Christ died for them. That doesn't mean we wink at sin because sin is not ok. But the sinner is not the enemy. We need to know who the enemy is, and it is not a human lost in sin. We battle not against flesh and blood.... I think that is what the real problem is. We don't have a good revelation of who the enemy of God is. It is not man, not any man.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

According to Romans 10 Faith comes through hearing, not reading.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Zephaniah said:


> That not what the Bible says;
> 
> (2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
> 
> All Scripture includes the Hebrew Scriptures and all other writing in the Canon.


That's always been what is considered a "hard passage." The Canon has changed over time. The essential version we have now (and of course we actually have TWO versions even now) wasn't settled until about the middle of the third century, and even then there was still debate and minor variations for a while. Luther's canon was a relatively recent upset, although several of his changes were ultimately not accepted even by protestants.

At the time Paul wrote that letter to Timothy, there was a decent (although not definitive) understanding of what was Scripture and what was not. The understanding today of that same thing is quite different. For instance, Paul's letters were not considered Scripture at the time, but they are now...even the very passage you quoted as a proof-text. See how it can get a little tricky?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

vicker said:


> The reason is, because they just aren't quite there yet. Most of them never will be, and you or I aren't going to get them there. Their beliefs are simplistic, and shallow. It is more comfortable that way.


I think you're right on. It isn't the Word that's shallow, but the understanding of it. Of course not everyone has such shallow beliefs, but a LOT of people seem to.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

InvalidID said:


> Who do we turn to when there is a conflict of scripture? And what do we count as scripture, as there is a lot left out of the bible? I'm sticking with Jesus personally. I'm thinking he's got the low down on what God wants.


* * * * * *
statements, but that wouldn't get to the heart of the matter, 
so I'll instead ask you ONE important question that you touched on. 

Who 'exactly' is Jesus, that HE would have the low down?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Both John and Jesus stirred up folks with their speech.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

farmmom said:


> When Christ died, all sin, past, present, and future were forgiven. Can you still sin, of course, but sin will kill you (The wages of sin is death). Now, as a Christian, I believe that if God has forgiven, I have no right to hold sin against anyone, because He has also forgiven me. However, that does not mean that the person forgiven does not face the consequences of their actions. Forgiveness does not necessarily a lack of consequences, but it's not up to me to force those consequences. Instead, the consequences will be brought by law or nature (which may be sickness, mental disfunction, etc.)


The wages of sin is death.
Couldn't that be said of lollipops also?
You are going to die, no question about that.
So far I haven't seen anything that says the cause of death was sin.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Deep word study is a good thing!!
> Knowing the Hebrew (for the OT) and the Greek (for the NT) is SO very helpful in understanding the passages.
> 
> An example is the word "love".
> ...


Lets give that some thought.
If there are 5 different words for love how do you know you are choosing the right one? Sonds like that is just adding more to the puzzle.
What makes a person so sure they are choosing the right meaning of the word, or any words?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Pancho, that is in Gen. 3, way back at the beginning.
God created us not to die. Sin entered because of mankind's disobedience to the 1 rule God gave us. 

Don't eat from that tree. Simple yet we could not obey even that. 
So to teach the Jews what perfection was he gave them the law and the commandments. Which is impossible for anyone to keep all of them.

So then he sent his son Jesus the Christ to die so that all could have a chance at salvation. 

While our fleshly body dies, the spirit or essence of who we are goes to reside with God if we accept his grace or to be tormented if we refuse.

I have had many discussions with my brother who is a genius, literally. He dismisses the Bible as a bunch of nice stories. 

I tell him, if he is right then I die happy having done my best to be the best person I can be. I may be thought a fool but once I am dead I won't care. If I am right, he is in trouble.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> Pancho, that is in Gen. 3, way back at the beginning.
> God created us not to die. Sin entered because of mankind's disobedience to the 1 rule God gave us.
> 
> Don't eat from that tree. Simple yet we could not obey even that.
> ...


So to teach the Jews what perfection was he gave them the law and the commandments. Which is impossible for anyone to keep all of them.

Why give people a set of rules that makes it impossible for anyone to keep?
That just don't make sense?

He gives people a list of rules that is impossible to keep then sends his son to die to give people another chance. Think about that for a short while.

I tend to agree with your brother.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

bignugly said:


> I love it when people read the Bible front to back and think they understand it. If that were true there would be only one Christian church. Everybody takes what they were taught and learned on their own to apply to their own needs. I believe that if people were to be truly Christian, you should follow the teaching of Christ only and use the other books of the New Testament as an advisory source. All other teachings in the NT are interpretation of what Christ said. I also think the Old Testament is a fantastic telling of Jewish history and laws, nothing more.


I agree completely with the above part of your post.
The rest of it - not so much



bignugly said:


> Too many churches quote OT as fire and brimstone to scare people. The OT is not rellevent once Christ gave his life for us. Christian church would be far better off teaching what Christ taught and stop interpreting for Him. I have a strong belief in God and Christ but do NOT attend a "Christian" church because I find people in most churches act like the Pharisees of Christ's time.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Zephaniah said:


> All Scripture includes the Hebrew Scriptures and all other writing in the Canon.


Who determines Canon? Well for the modern Christian Bible it was the early Catholic Church and much of what is mentioned in the Bible about what the various Prophets and Apostles who wrote it counted as scripture is not found in the modern Bible.

See this link Books quoted in the Bible but not found there


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

MJsLady said:


> According to Romans 10 Faith comes through hearing, not reading.


Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So it all comes down to the Word of God. They don't have to read, but they do need the word of God.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> The wages of sin is death.
> Couldn't that be said of lollipops also?
> You are going to die, no question about that.
> So far I haven't seen anything that says the cause of death was sin.


Until man committed the first sin in the garden of Eden there was no death. Once sin entered the world we all begin dying the minute we are concieved. That's what aging is. Of course, you could also look at it this way, death is nothing more than separation from God. Sin separates us from God. So yes, the wages of sin is death.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Lets give that some thought.
> If there are 5 different words for love how do you know you are choosing the right one? Sonds like that is just adding more to the puzzle.
> What makes a person so sure they are choosing the right meaning of the word, or any words?


By looking at the original word when possible in the original language.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

Did God not send Adma and Eve out of the Garden because they had tasted from the Tree of Knowledge and he did not want them to eat of the Tree of Life? So God did intend Man to have an Earthly existance which once over would bring them into another existance.

I do not feel that God has forgiven All sin or he would have brought the Messiah to Earth. He is still watching and waiting for US to be ready. Angels appear on Earth even now to test us and to bring to God that knowledge they have learned while here.

Jesus DIED by our hands therefore our sins were presented to God and we were found lacking."Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do!" I have never felt that Jesus absorbed our sins, however he did appeal to God to not punish man as he could so do.
I do not let others tell me what Faith is, it has coem to me during my lifetime and beleive me I didnt go searching for it!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> So to teach the Jews what perfection was he gave them the law and the commandments. Which is impossible for anyone to keep all of them.
> 
> Why give people a set of rules that makes it impossible for anyone to keep?
> That just don't make sense?
> ...


Man decided they didn't need God. That was why they demanded a king to rule over them. The rules are impossible. God was trying to show them that it's impossible to be perfect, or sinless, which meant we needed something besides our own self righteousness to reunite with God. The rules were to show how impossible our own will power is to do what is right and perfect, to show our need for a redeemer.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Until man committed the first sin in the garden of Eden there was no death. Once sin entered the world we all begin dying the minute we are concieved. That's what aging is. Of course, you could also look at it this way, death is nothing more than separation from God. Sin separates us from God. So yes, the wages of sin is death.


If I remember right there were only 2 people in the Garden of Eden.
We don't really know if there was life or death. We don't really know if there was a Garden of Eden.

Can you understand how hard it is for a person lke me to try to understand religion when it all starts out like some fairy tale in the first place?

How do we know about the Garden of Eden in the first place?


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

copperkid3 said:


> * * * * * *
> statements, but that wouldn't get to the heart of the matter,
> so I'll instead ask you ONE important question that you touched on.
> 
> Who 'exactly' is Jesus, that HE would have the low down?


That would depend on your own personal view wouldn't it? A Trinitarian would view God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as one. Others would view Jesus as the Son and distinct. This is a little deep and in the weeds I suppose.

The short answer is *For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,*Colossians 2:9


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> By looking at the original word when possible in the original language.


But wouldn't that still be a person's own determination what it meant in the first place?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> If I remember right there were only 2 people in the Garden of Eden.
> We don't really know if there was life or death. We don't really know if there was a Garden of Eden.
> 
> Can you understand how hard it is for a person lke me to try to understand religion when it all starts out like some fairy tale in the first place?
> ...


Faith, but in reality the Garden of Eden was just the place that the first sin was committed. From then to today everyone has sinned. None of us can be perfect. Since sin separates us from God, the only way to close that gap is through the only perfect person ever born, Jesus. I understand that those who aren't Christians yet have problems understanding this concept because I didn't understand it either and was like you, thought of it all as a big fairy tale. That is until something happened in my life that could not be explained by science or anything else, other than a Supreme Being. That's what made me start really reading the Bible, not to disprove it, which is what I had done in the past, but to find some answers. The answers I found cleared up a lot of things in my personal life and I finally prayed a very simple prayer asking God if he was real, show me in a way that I would know. He did, in a way that some may say it was just a coincidence or wishful thinking, but those who knew me before and know me know know that something big had happened in my life. Something that changed me so completely I became a different person.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Ambereyes said:


> Everyone to some extinct is judgmental IMO, it doesn't really matter what your beliefs are.


I totally agree. We have to be judges in many aspects of our lives. I have to judge if one of my kids' aquaintances is an acceptable companion. I have to judge right and wrong on an hourly basis. I feel this is different than being judgemental. Being judgemental involves lifting oneself above another. I believe this is what the Savior was referring to when He told us to 'judge not'. 

On one hand, I must judge but I also must not condemn or lower another due to their circumstances or choices. We all sin. Some just more obviously than others. We all need the Savior and his atonement. Only He can judge all men since He knows their circumstances, heritage, advantages, strengths and weaknesses. I do not know how much each of these things plays into the choices people make.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Faith, but in reality the Garden of Eden was just the place that the first sin was committed. From then to today everyone has sinned. None of us can be perfect. Since sin separates us from God, the only way to close that gap is through the only perfect person ever born, Jesus. I understand that those who aren't Christians yet have problems understanding this concept because I didn't understand it either and was like you, thought of it all as a big fairy tale. That is until something happened in my life that could not be explained by science or anything else, other than a Supreme Being. That's what made me start really reading the Bible, not to disprove it, which is what I had done in the past, but to find some answers. The answers I found cleared up a lot of things in my personal life and I finally prayed a very simple prayer asking God if he was real, show me in a way that I would know. He did, in a way that some may say it was just a coincidence or wishful thinking, but those who knew me before and know me know know that something big had happened in my life. Something that changed me so completely I became a different person.



My experience was just about the opposite of yours. I was born into a religious family. We went to church every chance possible. Sundays, wednesdays, revivals, vacation bible school, church camp. You name it we went. We hosted missionarys in our home.

I had questions and tried to find answers. I found out that the people who thought they had the answers knew very little more then I did and most didn't make sense. When I asked questions I was never given an answer, just preached at. 
I have never seen a miracle or even heard of one that couldn't be explained.

I also was changed. Just in a different way then you were. It would be so much easier to have something to blame for all of the bad in my life and thank for all of the good. The problem is when I ask myself why I have good and bad things happen to me most of the time I am the reason.

I may lie to other people but just can't see any reason to try to lie to myself.

Hope this explains why I always ask questions and seem to never understand.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Sonshine said:


> Faith, but in reality the Garden of Eden was just the place that the first sin was committed. From then to today everyone has sinned. None of us can be perfect. Since sin separates us from God, the only way to close that gap is through the only perfect person ever born, Jesus. I understand that those who aren't Christians yet have problems understanding this concept because I didn't understand it either and was like you, thought of it all as a big fairy tale. That is until something happened in my life that could not be explained by science or anything else, other than a Supreme Being. That's what made me start really reading the Bible, not to disprove it, which is what I had done in the past, but to find some answers. The answers I found cleared up a lot of things in my personal life and I finally prayed a very simple prayer asking God if he was real, show me in a way that I would know. He did, in a way that some may say it was just a coincidence or wishful thinking, but those who knew me before and know me know know that something big had happened in my life. Something that changed me so completely I became a different person.


Great post SS. I do have to differ with one thing though. The sin in the garden was not the first sin. It *was* the first sin committed here on earth though. Lucifer committed the first sin in heaven.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> Great post SS. I do have to differ with one thing though. The sin in the garden was not the first sin. It *was* the first sin committed here on earth though. Lucifer committed the first sin in heaven.


Got a question here.

If Lucifer committed the first sin in Heaven, who created Lucifer?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

God created ALL things.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> Great post SS. I do have to differ with one thing though. The sin in the garden was not the first sin. It *was* the first sin committed here on earth though. Lucifer committed the first sin in heaven.


 Heck, there could be more than even that one. I don't think we don't know the entire story, I imagine there's a lot of back story to eternity. Just sayin.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> Heck, there could be more than even that one. I don't think we don't know the entire story, I imagine there's a lot of back story to eternity. Just sayin.


That is not what God's word says.

Sonshine was correct in her post but most people forget about when Lucifer rebelled against God.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> That is not what God's word says.
> 
> Sonshine was correct in her post but most people forget about when Lucifer rebelled against God.


 I'm not saying Lucifer isn't the first, I'm just saying there may well be more between his first and Eve's first. I'm not really a biblical scholar so I'll defer to others here, I'm really just working a feeling here anyway.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> God created ALL things.


I have another question.
If God created Lucifer and that turned out so bad you would think he would have decided not to create so many more mistakes.

Sounds like a small kid trying to breed a flying rabbit.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> I have another question.
> If God created Lucifer and that turned out so bad you would think he would have decided not to create so many more mistakes.
> 
> Sounds like a small kid trying to raise a flying rabbit.


Looks like a statement to me and not a question. We all are given "free will".


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> I have another question.
> If God created Lucifer and that turned out so bad you would think he would have decided not to create so many more mistakes.
> 
> Sounds like a small kid trying to breed a flying rabbit.


 Why? Do you quit every time something doesn't work out exactly as you planned?

IT does however raise the issue of infallibility...


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> I may lie to other people but just can't see any reason to try to lie to myself.
> 
> Hope this explains why I always ask questions and seem to never understand.


Good for you for not trying to lie to yourself. So many people do fool themselves. Keep asking questions and trying to understand. It's all any of us can do.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> I'm not really a biblical scholar


I am not one either. I need to know more. Every time I read God's Word, I learn something new.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> I am not one either. I need to know more. Every time I read God's Word, I learn something new.


 How about Lucifer taking the form of a snake and tempting Eve to bite the apple. Can't we consider that a sin of some sort? I'm really just thinking out loud here, but it seems to fit I think.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> How about Lucifer taking the form of a snake and tempting Eve to bite the apple. Can't we consider that a sin of some sort? I'm really just thinking out loud here, but it seems to fit I think.


I agree it was sin. He had already sinned against God with "pride". I guess he just kept on rebelling against God. Eve, then Adam committed the first sin here on earth. In the garden. They were the first humans to sin.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> Looks like a statement to me and not a question. We all are given "free will".


If a person had the power to create life it would seem like he would want the best for the thing he created.
Why give "free will" in the first place?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> Why? Do you quit every time something doesn't work out exactly as you planned?
> 
> IT does however raise the issue of infallibility...


No, but I do try to learn from my mistakes. I just don't keep making more and more of the same mistakes.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> If a person had the power to create life it would seem like he would want the best for the thing he created.
> Why give "free will" in the first place?


God wants us to choose. He does not want robots to worship Him.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> Good for you for not trying to lie to yourself. So many people do fool themselves. Keep asking questions and trying to understand. It's all any of us can do.


I think I have just too many questions.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> How about Lucifer taking the form of a snake and tempting Eve to bite the apple. Can't we consider that a sin of some sort? I'm really just thinking out loud here, but it seems to fit I think.


How do we know it was Lucifer taking the form of the snake?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> God wants us to choose. He does not want robots to worship Him.


Why would he want us to choose when he could have as easily created man without the desire to sin or choose?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> Why would he want us to choose when he could have as easily created man without the desire to sin or choose?


All I can say is that he wants sincere worship. Robots or machines can not be sincere. 

If you need more clarification than that, you will need to ask Him, when you see Him.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> I think I have just too many questions.


Questions are good, if you are sincere.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> Questions are good, if you are sincere.


So far I haven't found anyone that can answer some of the simple questions.
If the simple ones are so hard to answer I don't have much hope for the tougher ones.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> So far I haven't found anyone that can answer some of the simple questions.
> If the simple ones are so hard to answer I don't have much hope for the tougher ones.


I thought I answered a simple one about creating people to worship. 

If you want a wife, would you want one that you make to love and sleep with you or would you want one that chooses to love and sleep with you because she loves you?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> So far I haven't found anyone that can answer some of the simple questions.
> If the simple ones are so hard to answer I don't have much hope for the tougher ones.


But if you are looking for a long drawn out argument, I am not your man.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> I thought I answered a simple one about creating people to worship.
> 
> If you want a wife, would you want one that you make to love and sleep with you or would you want one that chooses to love and sleep with you because she loves you?


That is one problem I keep coming up against. People who believe in the first place expect others to accept their answers and believe them when they don't answer the question. For you and those who believe as you do you may have answered it quite well.
For people like me we still have the same question and a few more.

If a person believes in the first place they are not allowed to question. For that reason they do not seem to be able to answer questions.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> But if you are looking for a long drawn out argument, I am not your man.


I get that a lot. I am looking for answers, not arguments. People who believe seem to think if a person has a question it is an argument.
That isn't the case. There are just some questions I would like to know the answer to. When people finally decide they cannot answer them they seem to take it as an argument. It isn't.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> That is one problem I keep coming up against. People who believe in the first place expect others to accept their answers and believe them when they don't answer the question. For you and those who believe as you do you may have answered it quite well.
> For people like me we still have the same question and a few more.
> 
> If a person believes in the first place they are not allowed to question. For that reason they do not seem to be able to answer questions.


Pancho, I truly understand your position. I am just answering your questions the best way I know how. To be quite honest, I ain't the sharpest blade in the drawer. I am just saying what I believe. No more no less.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> Pancho, I truly understand your position. I am just answering your questions the best way I know how. To be quite honest, I ain't the sharpest blade in the drawer. I am just saying what I believe. No more no less.


Thanks, that is all anyone can do.
I am sort of like you, not the sharpest blade in the drawer. I can learn something if I can get answers.
When I was a small kid my father always said I asked too many questions.
My grand father asked him how was I supposed to learn if I didn't ask questions.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

I do not have all the answers Poncho. I do know the One who does. I have 
F.... Forever
A.... Am
I ... I
T... Trusting
H... Him
Pray and ask God to lead you and pick up a bible and start reading. Sometimes people start in John to find out who Jesus Is. 
If you really want answers, they are all in God's Word.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> I have another question.
> If God created Lucifer and that turned out so bad you would think he would have decided not to create so many more mistakes.
> 
> Sounds like a small kid trying to breed a flying rabbit.


Or it could be that God gave us a mind of our own and values free will.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> So far I haven't found anyone that can answer some of the simple questions.
> If the simple ones are so hard to answer I don't have much hope for the tougher ones.


Not likely you'll ever find a person who will answer your questions to your satisfaction, especially not someone you don't really know. You're probably more likely to find answers in your own life. Just keep looking if it's important to you.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> If a person had the power to create life it would seem like he would want the best for the thing he created.
> Why give "free will" in the first place?


Because without it we'd just be little wind up robots.
I submit that the purpose of life is a testing ground to see who will choose good because its the right thing to do, not because we are afraid of punishment - that would also explain why you really can't prove to anyone that God exists.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> Or it could be that God gave us a mind of our own and values free will.


It could be many things. One of which there isn't a god to begin with.
Since our values and free will seem to change quite a bit according to what is popular it would seem he didn't give us either.

A mind of our own would not seem likely to be given either.
The religious people seem to dislike that one most of all. A mind of our own means agreeing with them. That does not seem like a mind of our own.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> Because without it we'd just be little wind up robots.
> I submit that the purpose of life is a testing ground to see who will choose good because its the right thing to do, not because we are afraid of punishment - that would also explain why you really can't prove to anyone that God exists.


And what would be the problem with that. If someone is creating a person it would seem like they would not give them powers to destroy themselves and others. Why create something just to see it destroy its self?

When man was created he knew nothing of robots. He would never have know anything else except happiness.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> It could be many things. One of which there isn't a god to begin with.
> Since our values and free will seem to change quite a bit according to what is popular it would seem he didn't give us either.
> 
> A mind of our own would not seem likely to be given either.
> The religious people seem to dislike that one most of all. A mind of our own means agreeing with them. That does not seem like a mind of our own.


 I think you've argued against yourself a lot here. Values and will change according to whims and society. This would denote a significant amount of freewill.

The argument against religious people is rather silly, as none of the religious folks here have tried to force their opinions on you. You've asked questions and they've given you opinions, but none have judged you or tried to force you to believe. 

There are THOSE people though, and while they aren't generally the majority they sure do scream the loudest. (Whether religious, Gay pride types, or what have you)


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

We have free will be God wants us to choose him. 
He did not want blind obedience. He wants us to choose his path with our eyes open and brains engaged.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> I think you've argued against yourself a lot here. Values and will change according to whims and society. This would denote a significant amount of freewill.
> 
> The argument against religious people is rather silly, as none of the religious folks here have tried to force their opinions on you. You've asked questions and they've given you opinions, but none have judged you or tried to force you to believe.
> 
> There are THOSE people though, and while they aren't generally the majority they sure do scream the loudest. (Whether religious, Gay pride types, or what have you)


Again, religious people want others to ask questions but when they do they get bent all out of shape when they can't answer the questions.

I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I am asking questiions. So far some have tried to answer and I do appreciate it. Others who have no idea how to answer the questions are insulted that I asked.
Can you see how a person would become discouraged with religion? When even those who believe cannot answer a simple question yet want other to believe as they do.

If a person post their opinion on an open forum they might have some idea that others will question that opinion. You don't seem to have a problem questioning anyone's opinion. What makes you special? Is your opinion unquestionable?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> We have free will be God wants us to choose him.
> He did not want blind obedience. He wants us to choose his path with our eyes open and brains engaged.


That is one of my biggest questions.
How do people know what God had in mind? If we don't know for sure there is even a god how is it possible to know what an imiginary thing may have had in mind at one time?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Cabin Fever said:


> Rakkasan:
> Please continue to ask questions and research the Christian faith. This is the way the journey starts for many new believers. I feel that God is stirring your soul. :goodjob:


 Bloody Nora, I hope not! :run:


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

bignugly said:


> I think modern government reflects more the attitude of the Pharisees than those of Christ! Our government is filled with self serving and greedy politicians that sit up there and say "Look how great I am" somewhat like the Pharisees in the Temple. Christ gave freely without regard for where that person was from or who he was. Can that be said of our politicians?



Political power tends to corrupt. It even had effects on great folks in Biblical history, such as King David (Just an example, even though he was not a Christian).

But, if you look at the facts for all members of American society at the time, the government of our Founding Fathers was far from Christlike.

Those familiar with Scripture and American history need look no further that Matthew 25:31-46 for enlightenment as to what sorts of things Christ requires from his people.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> My experience was just about the opposite of yours. I was born into a religious family. We went to church every chance possible. Sundays, wednesdays, revivals, vacation bible school, church camp. You name it we went. We hosted missionarys in our home.
> 
> I had questions and tried to find answers. I found out that the people who thought they had the answers knew very little more then I did and most didn't make sense. When I asked questions I was never given an answer, just preached at.
> I have never seen a miracle or even heard of one that couldn't be explained.
> ...


I agree that many times bad things happen to us because of bad decisions we have made, but not always. You know parts of my history, so you know that there were some things that happened in my life I had no control over. I also grew up in a so called Christian home. I think that's why I became an atheist for awhile. I saw a lot of hypocrisy. I think the difference between you and me is that I reached the end of my rope. I had lost everything that ever meant anything to me in life and didn't care whether I lived or died, in fact actually attempted suicide a couple of times trying to end all the pain. It seems like most of my life was nothing but pain. One of the things that made a difference and made me really question God's existence was a lady I met the day of the housefire. I was not very nice to her, in fact, I was down right rude. Yet no matter what I said or did, this lady reminded me that she loved me because God loves me. I didn't just throw my arms around here and immediately accept Christ. I ran. I enlisted in the USAF trying to disappear from everyone who knew me. BUT, I couldn't run from the words she had spoken to me and the actions she showed me. I knew there was something missing in my life, and this lady seemed to have it. I also knew that if I didn't find it, my own life would be over. Not everyone has to get to the point of desperation that I found myself in, but I'm hard headed. When I got to the point, I basically challenged God, telling him that if he was really there I needed something more than just empty words and promises. I can't explain how God answered my cries, but it was enough that I have never turned back.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Possum Belly said:


> Great post SS. I do have to differ with one thing though. The sin in the garden was not the first sin. It *was* the first sin committed here on earth though. Lucifer committed the first sin in heaven.


True, but it was man's first sin that opened the door to death and disease and all kinds of terrible things.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> I have another question.
> If God created Lucifer and that turned out so bad you would think he would have decided not to create so many more mistakes.
> 
> Sounds like a small kid trying to breed a flying rabbit.


So you believe mankind was a mistake? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> If a person had the power to create life it would seem like he would want the best for the thing he created.
> Why give "free will" in the first place?


Let me ask you a question, I believe you have said you are married, forgive me if I'm wrong on that, but would you rather be married to your wife or a robot?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> That is one problem I keep coming up against. People who believe in the first place expect others to accept their answers and believe them when they don't answer the question. For you and those who believe as you do you may have answered it quite well.
> For people like me we still have the same question and a few more.
> 
> If a person believes in the first place they are not allowed to question. For that reason they do not seem to be able to answer questions.


Pancho, if you are seriously searching for answers, please PM me. I probably won't be able to answer all of them, but I will try to answer every question you put to me as honestly as I can.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Pancho, I hope none of my replies have made it appear I am aggravated. I am not. I am trying to help you understand my place, does that make sense?

Sometimes it is hard when one has had Faith for a long time to remember when they did not. 

Perhaps if you pm me some specific questions I can answer better. All this bobbing and weaving between posts is difficult when I have other things I need to do...eep:

Oh and yes dear one I question ALL the time!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I agree that many times bad things happen to us because of bad decisions we have made, but not always. You know parts of my history, so you know that there were some things that happened in my life I had no control over. I also grew up in a so called Christian home. I think that's why I became an atheist for awhile. I saw a lot of hypocrisy. I think the difference between you and me is that I reached the end of my rope. I had lost everything that ever meant anything to me in life and didn't care whether I lived or died, in fact actually attempted suicide a couple of times trying to end all the pain. It seems like most of my life was nothing but pain. One of the things that made a difference and made me really question God's existence was a lady I met the day of the housefire. I was not very nice to her, in fact, I was down right rude. Yet no matter what I said or did, this lady reminded me that she loved me because God loves me. I didn't just throw my arms around here and immediately accept Christ. I ran. I enlisted in the USAF trying to disappear from everyone who knew me. BUT, I couldn't run from the words she had spoken to me and the actions she showed me. I knew there was something missing in my life, and this lady seemed to have it. I also knew that if I didn't find it, my own life would be over. Not everyone has to get to the point of desperation that I found myself in, but I'm hard headed. When I got to the point, I basically challenged God, telling him that if he was really there I needed something more than just empty words and promises. I can't explain how God answered my cries, but it was enough that I have never turned back.


Sonshine, I have been in the same shape as you were. I spent one year in a hospital not knowing from day to day if I would live to see the sun rise again.
If I would have met someone like the woman you met maybe things would have been different. I met the other kind. I met those who said they were christian people. Their actions proved different.
I have been looking for something other than empty words and promises for a little more than 20 years. So far that is all I have found.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> Pancho, I hope none of my replies have made it appear I am aggravated. I am not. I am trying to help you understand my place, does that make sense?
> 
> Sometimes it is hard when one has had Faith for a long time to remember when they did not.
> 
> ...


No, just the opposite. Your replies have been very nice, much better than my questions.

Yes, it does make sense. I think a person should be able to choose what is the best road for them. We don't all follow that same road and we don't all end up in the same place.

Guess I didn't lead a very sheltered life once I left home. I saw many things I wish I would never even heard of much less seen.
At one time I did have faith.

Thank you for being so nice.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> So you believe mankind was a mistake? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying.


No, I don't think mankind was a mistake, just that there was no creator who decided to make mankind. Just too many things wrong with the results for it to be anything planned by anyone.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Pancho, I need look no farther than my own family to see the difference in Christians.
There are some who believe i am no longer saved because I attend the "wrong" kind of church. 

Please know I do care and I am here to help if I can.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Let me ask you a question, I believe you have said you are married, forgive me if I'm wrong on that, but would you rather be married to your wife or a robot?


I have been married 4 times. I am not married now.
All 4 were christian women. Or that is what they wanted the world to believe.

I spent over 5 years living with a woman who is a member of this forum. She was one of the most honest people I know.
She cared for people more than anyone I know. She was a very religious person.
We broke up because I would not give her 30 something year old daughter money to buy drugs.


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

There are people here questioning someone's beliefs in the guise of trying to understand religion. I believe these people are just trying to shake a believer's values to match their own. These people are either selfish and into themselves or jealous that they can't have the same faith. The only place anybody can get the answers they seek is in their own heart not from someone else.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

big, I think what you say is true. However some do want to understand.
I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I become convinced, as I have one some threads that all that is taking place is baiting, I walk away.
Not because I can not answer, not because they "won" but because I would rather devote my time to helping those who do want to understand than feeding those who desire to mock or make fun or try to prove a point. Especially when they use half truths to try and teach me what the Bible says. 

I figure if a person really wants to know they can always PM me when I walk away. 

I am not here to force feed religion to anyone. I will not shut up when my Faith is called into question but I will take Jesus's advice when I sense it is not in earnest and wipe the dust of that place or person off my feet and walk away. 

If I only wanted to talk with those who agree with me, I would spend a lot of time talking to myself, cuz the truth is I do not 100% agree on everything with anyone.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, I have been in the same shape as you were. I spent one year in a hospital not knowing from day to day if I would live to see the sun rise again.
> If I would have met someone like the woman you met maybe things would have been different. I met the other kind. I met those who said they were christian people. Their actions proved different.
> I have been looking for something other than empty words and promises for a little more than 20 years. So far that is all I have found.


I will answer every question you have as honestly as I can, but think a better place for this type of discussion would be PM's or emails. I will make a promise to you, as long as you are serious searching for the truth and answers, I will try to truthfully answer every question you pose, for as long as you want to ask.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> No, I don't think mankind was a mistake, just that there was no creator who decided to make mankind. Just too many things wrong with the results for it to be anything planned by anyone.


On the other side of the coin, I believe there are too many coicindences for mankind to be anything other than created by something that had a master plan. Stop and think about it. The Earth has all mankind needs to sustain us. The air, water the nutrients in the soil, just the right amount of energy from the sun, even the tides in the oceans. If even one thing was different then Earth would not be able to nurture human beings. Then look at mankind. Our bodies are so fascinating, how everything works together to keep us going. Again, when one thing is out of whack or ceases to function, in most cases it will result in death. How can all of that have happened by accident or by anything else other than design?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> I have been married 4 times. I am not married now.
> All 4 were christian women. Or that is what they wanted the world to believe.
> 
> I spent over 5 years living with a woman who is a member of this forum. She was one of the most honest people I know.
> ...


I've seen this sort of thing more often than I care to think about. The problem comes in when we start looking at people. People are fallible. We're human (not meaning to jest) and as such we are imperfect in our thoughts and our actions. We all have faults, even the strongest Christian. If a person is looking to other people trying to find God, they will never find him, because God is perfect, man is not.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

MJsLady said:


> big, I think what you say is true. However some do want to understand.
> I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I become convinced, as I have one some threads that all that is taking place is baiting, I walk away.
> Not because I can not answer, not because they "won" but because I would rather devote my time to helping those who do want to understand than feeding those who desire to mock or make fun or try to prove a point. Especially when they use half truths to try and teach me what the Bible says.
> 
> ...


AMEN!!! Lady, you said a moutful there.  And I agree with you. I'm probably one of the strangest Christians, outside of John the Baptist, that most people have ever seen. I just tell people that God says he's coming for a "peculiar people" and I am definitely that.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

bignugly said:


> People fail to understand during Christ's time very few were educated and that is why Christ taught using parables. The people could relate to what He was teaching with their every day lives without having to read or write.



Not quite. Google "why did Jesus teach in parables" and read.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

pancho said:


> If a person had the power to create life it would seem like he would want the best for the thing he created.
> Why give "free will" in the first place?


Read Romans 9


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> On the other side of the coin, I believe there are too many coicindences for mankind to be anything other than created by something that had a master plan. Stop and think about it. The Earth has all mankind needs to sustain us. The air, water the nutrients in the soil, just the right amount of energy from the sun, even the tides in the oceans. If even one thing was different then Earth would not be able to nurture human beings. Then look at mankind. Our bodies are so fascinating, how everything works together to keep us going. Again, when one thing is out of whack or ceases to function, in most cases it will result in death. How can all of that have happened by accident or by anything else other than design?


Sonshine, look back in the history of the earth. It hasn't always been what it is today. Humans have only been on this planet for a very short time.
Unless you are a new earth person. I will have to admit the first time I had a person tell me he was a new earth person I thought he was joking. I laughed at him but he ws serious. I didn't know what he meant. I had to research it.
I still can't believe there are people who think the earth is only 10,000 years old.

Take a look at human bodies. Look at how they have changed over time. We did not always look like we do today. Look at the tonsils and appendicts. We have them but are able to live a long life without them. I am sure there was a function for them at one time. I don't know what it was though.

The reason earth has all that we need to survive is that we adapted to what was there in the first place. Not that the earth was built for our convenience.


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

tarbe said:


> Not quite. Google "why did Jesus teach in parables" and read.


That's what I said!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, look back in the history of the earth. It hasn't always been what it is today. Humans have only been on this planet for a very short time.
> Unless you are a new earth person. I will have to admit the first time I had a person tell me he was a new earth person I thought he was joking. I laughed at him but he ws serious. I didn't know what he meant. I had to research it.
> I still can't believe there are people who think the earth is only 10,000 years old.
> 
> ...


Not sure what a New Earth person is, but do know that if you look at the composition of mankind and the composition of the earth then you can see that it wouldn't take much to upset the balance so that man could not live on the earth. The earth has just the right mixture to produce the air we need to survive. The plant life is just right to sustain us and even heal our sicknesses. Yes, we can survive without our tonsils or appendicts, but we would also be more prone to infections, since both of them are there as filters for our bodies. I even am living without my gall bladder, but my body doesn't function as well without it. Even with all the scientific breakthroughs we have had, mankind still doesn't understand exactly how the human body works. I don't understand how anyone can say that the human body was not made by design, and if it was made by design, there had to be a designer.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

tarbe said:


> Not quite. Google "why did Jesus teach in parables" and read.


Or you could read Jesus' response when asked that question. I guess that's probably what comes up when you Google it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Found this link I thought was interesting. It was written by a person who use to be an atheist.

Does God Exist - Six Reasons to Believe that God is Really There - Existence of God - Proof of God

Here's another link that might answer some questions:

Can You Prove That God Exists?

From the above link:

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Questions Others May Ask You

Can You Prove God Exists And That He's The Only God?

Can You Prove That God Exists And That He&#8217;s The Only God

There are two distinct questions here, and the second follows logically from the first. But before we start, we need to resolve a background issue.

What is Proof?

In asking this question, we're basically asking "What kind of proof will be good enough? How much proof is needed?". When we talk about proof, we're talking about establishing some degree of certainty about something.

Scientific knowledge is based on repeated observations, but scientific knowledge is only one kind of knowledge. Other kinds include historical knowledge, philosophical knowledge, moral knowledge and personal knowledge. These types of knowledge lie outside the bounds of scientific knowledge.

For example, take historical knowledge. Can you prove that King Henry the Eighth existed? Using the scientific approach of observation and repeatable experiments, impossible! But using historical methods, it is certain that he existed beyond a reasonable doubt. This phrase is the key. While not one person living today has ever seen King Henry the Eighth, we know he existed beyond a reasonable doubt. This is why in law courts, a jury must be convinced of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So, when we look to prove whether God exists today, a scientific approach will not work. The amount of proof needed is enough so that we can say: "God exists beyond a reasonable doubt".

The Question Restated

We can now restate the two questions above: 

Is it reasonable to accept that there is a 'Higher Being' behind this universe? 
If so, how do we know 'what' or 'who' the Higher Being is? 
Is There A Higher Being?

There are many different arguments for the existence of a Higher Being, none of which rely on the Bible, and none of which can be scientifically proved. Here are a few:

The Argument From Design 

When we look at anything that has a design, we rightly conclude that it had a designer. Somebody designed chairs for a purpose. Somebody designed a glove to fit over a hand. The universe, and particularly human beings, show an unbelievable amount of design. This points to a Designer.

The Argument From Anthropology 

Humans have a complex personality. It seems (and is) absurd that such complexity could have emerged from nothing, with no cause. Rather, the human personality would need to be made by a Being with the same, if not greater, complex personality.

The Argument From Cause-Effect 

Everything we can think of, and which we encounter, has been caused by something. Every effect has a cause. In something as complex and awesome as the universe, there is no difference. The Big Bang Theory does not destroy this argument, for no-one can explain the cause of the Big Bang.

The Argument From Ontology 

If there is a concept of something, this implies that the something does exist. For example, there is the popular concept of 'true love'. Although this concept might often seem elusive, the fact that we have the concept of true love in our heads, points to the real probability of the existence of true love.

The Argument From Morality 

The sense of morals which most people have 'built-in', points to the existence of a moral Maker. More than this, the other option of evolution, has no way of explaining how morals came from pond-slime, and ultimately, from nothing. 

These arguments, on their own, and even collectively, cannot possibly 'prove' that God exists. However, they provide enough of a starting point to accept that there is probably a Higher Being of some kind. At this point, we are in a position to try and answer the second question.

This article continues, so if interested please follow the link for the rest.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I kinda see the way in which this thread (via the title) as being slanted. How about if I questioned----"Why are drivers today so fussy about having auto equipments functioning?----Duh clue people are attempting to the best of their ability and desire to follow the dictates (dictates is a word that is a firm -ridged and defining) of their understanding of their knowledge of their faith.

So, what some see as "judgmental" they simple are living their life as they are and could it be that those that see it as judgmental are they themselves being judgmental. Judgmental has a negative connotation much like "Bless your heart" does it is often used to disturb the water while keeping ones hand with the appearence of being clean. It is a useful technique for an experienced troll. Often guilty of selling arms yet never firing a shot.


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

I am personally of the opinion that a rather vocal portion of Christians have preexisting values and go to churches that more or less reinforce them. I find that most of the more well-read folks are less likely to be judgmental, and the popularity of some of the newer nondenominational churches focus in this direction.

This is in no way meant to malign anyone here - there is an unfortunately large portion of folks in all walks of life who are highly judgmental, and many are that way without the guidance of clergy. Personally, by my own understanding and reading of the bible, Mosaic law served an important purpose to some fairly primitive/barbaric folks and is largely of use as a historical record, and that the new testament, while claiming that the old laws mattered, focuses much more on being compassionate and nonjudgmental. Trying to reconcile everything in the bible as being verbatim the word of God leads to a lot of contradictions, contradictions that I think the New Covenant Jesus discusses should be the tie breaker for.


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## gryndlgoat (May 27, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> Found this link I thought was interesting. It was written by a person who use to be an atheist.
> 
> Does God Exist - Six Reasons to Believe that God is Really There - Existence of God - Proof of God
> 
> ...


This is where this argument comes crashing down in flames. There are many things that exist in nature that form spontaneously, without a designer. One of the simplest examples is a snowflake. There is no "Jack Frost" entity sitting with a paintbrush "designing" the incredibly complex different snowflake patterns. Water crystallization does it all on its own, due to a simple temperature difference. Nobody designs snowflakes--especially not a Jack Frost-like magical being.

There is absolutely no evidence for a need for a designer for anything on earth. The author "wrongly concluded", not "rightly", that everything that has a design automatically has a thinking being as its designer. The rest of his argument is meaningless as it is based on this OPINION of his.

Here's a question for you: If you really believe that complex things ALWAYS need a designer, then who designed God? Certainly the supreme being must have a form of some type, if people believe they can communicate with God and he interacts with them?

If you now argue that God has always 'just existed', then you should also be able to go one step further and argue, using exactly the same 'evidence' that you use for an always-existing God, that the universe has always 'just existed' without any input or any need for any supreme being.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

The New Earth thing is simple.
God created the earth in 6 days. On day 6 he created man. 
New Earth folks, believe the Bible contains the sum total of the earth history. They believe dinosaurs to some extent did walk with man.

The years count is right now 6,500 or there about.

While I am a creationist I do not feel the amount of time is relevant. When dealing with an immortal God, time is not of the essence and does not matter. God could have turned a minute into 10,000 years and we would not know it. We have only weak human measures of time. The only time that matters to me is the time I have what I am here to do. Apparently it is not up yet so I am not done doing what ever it is.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> Again, religious people want others to ask questions but when they do they get bent all out of shape when they can't answer the questions.


 I haven't noticed anyone getting bent out of shape here yet. Many have tried to answer as best they can, and when they can't they've said so.


pancho said:


> I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I am asking questiions. So far some have tried to answer and I do appreciate it. Others who have no idea how to answer the questions are insulted that I asked.
> Can you see how a person would become discouraged with religion? When even those who believe cannot answer a simple question yet want other to believe as they do.


 I didn't say you were forcing anything on anyone, settle down. I haven't noticed people getting insulted that you asked a question honestly. I do admit to skipping through a few posts though so maybe I missed something. 

As for getting discouraged with religion, heck yeah I can see why. I'm no fan of organized religion myself as I think it kinda defeats the purpose. In my opinion any time you add layers to a thing like this you get father from the truth. Go straight to the source whenever you can, that's my opinion.

As for people being unable to answer a question but wanting you to believe as they do... While I haven't seen that here and I wonder why you feel that way right now, I'd point out it isn't an issue unique to religion. Many people feel that very same way about pretty much everything. You're in the political forum all the time, you know what I'm saying.


pancho said:


> If a person post their opinion on an open forum they might have some idea that others will question that opinion. You don't seem to have a problem questioning anyone's opinion. What makes you special? Is your opinion unquestionable?


 Huh? What exactly prompted this? Where have I come off as unquestionable or otherwise above reproach? If this is in fact aimed directly at me I would suggest part of your problem with religion would be in the hostile view you take in dealing with the people discussing it, as I've never had an opinion on religion I've felt was unquestionable. I have an opinion and I'll say it's just that, an opinion. Anyone that thinks they KNOW something about God is in serious trouble.


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## DebbieLynn (Dec 1, 2010)

Pancho, I hope you find what you're looking for. I have asked many of the same questions you have and people have called me argumentative and so on. I was raised to believe in God and I was "saved and baptised" and truly thought at the time I was a believer. I am not currently able to choose what I am because I also cannot say without a doubt that God does or doesn't exist. I WANT to believe. I want the peace of mind that others tell me they get from their faith but I just can't seem to stop asking questions about the things that just do not make sense to me. My family members that have this seem to be happy or rather they don't seem to have the same difficulty dealing with many of the things I question. I am trying to live my life based on what I believe to be correct but how do you KNOW that you're doing things the right way? Please don't think I'm trying to shake anyones beliefs or say that your way isn't the right way. I just have so many questions that haven't been answered so that I can understand. (I'm very slow sometimes) I am a judgemental person and I know this....as in I choose not to associate with certain people based on what I consider to be "wrong behaviors" such as drugs, alcohol,foul language, stealing, cheating, etc so I have some sort of belief system just not sure it's the right one? I don't consider myself a "Christian" but I am judgemental


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, look back in the history of the earth. It hasn't always been what it is today. Humans have only been on this planet for a very short time.
> Unless you are a new earth person. I will have to admit the first time I had a person tell me he was a new earth person I thought he was joking. I laughed at him but he ws serious. I didn't know what he meant. I had to research it.
> I still can't believe there are people who think the earth is only 10,000 years old.
> 
> ...


If you look at the history of the Earth in terms of a calendar, humans have been around for the last day of December, in the last minute of that day, then in the last split-second of that minute. The amount of time organized religions have been around is immeasurably smaller. After you comprehend this, try to fathom how long the Universe as we know it has been around.

The human brain is so limited and stunted by dogma, that people have absolutely no true sense of the unfathomable vastness of time as we measure it.

As far as Christians being judgmental. The bible teaches people to be judgmental of those who do not share their beliefs - stone them, kill them, create wars with them, etc. Christians will post quotes to argue against this. The fact is, that the bible is so full of contradictions that anyone can pick out anything they want to support their own views on either side of anything.

I would love to see a factual discussion on who actually wrote the bible, what the culture of those men was like at the time, how it was translated through the years, what parts were censored and left out, and the time frame of it's supposed writing in relation to when Jesus was actually alive.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

gryndlgoat said:


> This is where this argument comes crashing down in flames. There are many things that exist in nature that form spontaneously, without a designer. One of the simplest examples is a snowflake. There is no "Jack Frost" entity sitting with a paintbrush "designing" the incredibly complex different snowflake patterns. Water crystallization does it all on its own, due to a simple temperature difference. Nobody designs snowflakes--especially not a Jack Frost-like magical being.
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence for a need for a designer for anything on earth. The author "wrongly concluded", not "rightly", that everything that has a design automatically has a thinking being as its designer. The rest of his argument is meaningless as it is based on this OPINION of his.
> 
> ...


I don't believe in Jack Frost, or whatever, but do believe it's too much of a coincidence that each snowflake is unique. As for who designed God, I don't have an answer for that. Wish I did, but I think there are some people that even if a good answer is found for that question would still deny his existence. This will be my only response to you because it's obvious you aren't seeking, but want an argument. I will always try to answer those who are really looking for the truth as I see it, but won't be pulled into an argument for the sake of arguing. Have a nice day.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

MJsLady said:


> The New Earth thing is simple.
> God created the earth in 6 days. On day 6 he created man.
> New Earth folks, believe the Bible contains the sum total of the earth history. They believe dinosaurs to some extent did walk with man.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks for the information. The Bible makes it pretty clear that God is not restrained from the same time limitations that mankind has. So there's no way of really knowing how old the earth is.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Often those who are searching and questioning are closer to the answers than those who already think they know the truth. Not directed at anyone in particular, but if you call yourself a Christian and you're not constantly searching for more understanding, your faith isn't all that deep, and is probably misplaced in many cases.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I think it is obvious that some people feel that they have the authority to preach to other adults about how they should live their lives. Seems a lot like a god complex to me. I would think that telling people to look within, or within the actual words of the bible would be a good idea, as opposed to seeking moral guidance from some username on an online forum. Lots of people around here view themselves as a religious authority with a one way personal line to God. True answers don't come from deluded self-righteous people.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> True answers don't come from deluded self-righteous people.


What kind of people give true answers?


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i think that was the first question i asked dad about bible matters.but where did god come from dad. he just said he has always been there and we must never question him. i stopped questioning for the longest time. Georgia.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What kind of people give true answers?


No person does.

The people trying to give answers to everyone usually have control issues that need resolved..


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

DebbieLynn said:


> Pancho, I hope you find what you're looking for. I have asked many of the same questions you have and people have called me argumentative and so on. I was raised to believe in God and I was "saved and baptised" and truly thought at the time I was a believer. I am not currently able to choose what I am because I also cannot say without a doubt that God does or doesn't exist. I WANT to believe. I want the peace of mind that others tell me they get from their faith but I just can't seem to stop asking questions about the things that just do not make sense to me. My family members that have this seem to be happy or rather they don't seem to have the same difficulty dealing with many of the things I question. I am trying to live my life based on what I believe to be correct but how do you KNOW that you're doing things the right way? Please don't think I'm trying to shake anyones beliefs or say that your way isn't the right way. I just have so many questions that haven't been answered so that I can understand. (I'm very slow sometimes) I am a judgemental person and I know this....as in I choose not to associate with certain people based on what I consider to be "wrong behaviors" such as drugs, alcohol,foul language, stealing, cheating, etc so I have some sort of belief system just not sure it's the right one? I don't consider myself a "Christian" but I am judgemental


That pretty well says what I have been trying to say. I know I am not very good at explaining things, I can barely carry on a conservation.
I seem to be more against certain what I call bad behaviors than many of the religious people.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I don't believe in Jack Frost, or whatever, but do believe it's too much of a coincidence that each snowflake is unique. As for who designed God, I don't have an answer for that. Wish I did, but I think there are some people that even if a good answer is found for that question would still deny his existence. This will be my only response to you because it's obvious you aren't seeking, but want an argument. I will always try to answer those who are really looking for the truth as I see it, but won't be pulled into an argument for the sake of arguing. Have a nice day.


Sonshine, that is one of the questions I would like to find an answer for. I don't even know if there is an answer.
If God created everything we know, who created God?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

ryanthomas said:


> Often those who are searching and questioning are closer to the answers than those who already think they know the truth. Not directed at anyone in particular, but if you call yourself a Christian and you're not constantly searching for more understanding, your faith isn't all that deep, and is probably misplaced in many cases.


You'll get no argument from me on this, but there is a difference in really searching and honestly questioning and just questioning to start an argument. It's those who only want to argue that I don't wish to discuss issues like this with. I am constantly seeking truth, so far the only truth that makes sense to me has been found in the Bible and through my relationship with the Lord.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Ok, thanks for the information. The Bible makes it pretty clear that God is not restrained from the same time limitations that mankind has. So there's no way of really knowing how old the earth is.


Like I said in another post I thought the man was joking with me when he said the earth was less than 10,000 years old.
I did some research on it and talked quite a while with the man.
The more I found out the less I believed any of it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

newfieannie said:


> i think that was the first question i asked dad about bible matters.but where did god come from dad. he just said he has always been there and we must never question him. i stopped questioning for the longest time. Georgia.


Using that line of questioning can really get you no where. If a person chooses not to believe in the existence of God, then where did the energy come from for the big bang theory? Where did the cells come from that life came from? Somewhere in all of this there has to be something or someone who has always been.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Haven said:


> No person does.
> 
> The people trying to give answers to everyone usually have control issues that need resolved..


Or they are trying to share what little they may know on a topic because the questions were asked. Not sure how being polite and trying to answer honest questions can be described as control issues. Do you never answer questions?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, that is one of the questions I would like to find an answer for. I don't even know if there is an answer.
> If God created everything we know, who created God?


Pancho, there are some questions that we will never know the answers to. Everything we know started somewhere and somehow. Where did the earth come from? We know that one day it was not here and then one day it was. Scientist teach the big bang, but where did everything come from to create the big bang? So it basically boils down to what makes the most sense to you. Did everything just appear out of nothingness? Thin air? If so, how did it all happen in such a way as to sustain life? Where did God come from? Where did the energy come from that caused the big bang? Regardless of which way a person chooses to belief, at some point it's going to have to take faith. Either faith in a vast number of coincidences that created the perfect atmosphere to support life, of faith that there is a master designer who created it all. I don't believe much in coincidences.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Rakkasan said:


> It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.
> 
> Christ redeems ALL sins. Every single one of them. Even ones that are abominations.
> 
> ...



Simple!

Why are all Muslims terrorists!

Why are all Liberals anti American?

Sorry but this is nothing more then trolling at it's best..



But I will answer the question, but understand I'm not a Christian and I won't be using any biblical verses..

Belief/Faith is truly only understood by very few and practiced by even fewer.
Many will hold the major tenets of a particular faith, but not really practice them.. I find it in my own Pagan folks, who use it as a crutch to make them feel different/ to stand out/ make themselves feel important, but truly don't believe the tenets of the religion.. 

Just as you have many Christians, Muslims etc.. who claim they are of that faith, but don't practice those beliefs..

For example Why can some of these churches build multimillion dollar churches in at least 6 different locations throughout 2 counties?

If they have that kind of money, they truly could help a lot of folks.. But choose to spend it on luxury churches instead..

But then there is the small church group that has nothing, simply because they choose to spend every penny to help others...

This is typical of ALL religions..

So I still think your question is trolling...


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Like I said in another post I thought the man was joking with me when he said the earth was less than 10,000 years old.
> I did some research on it and talked quite a while with the man.
> The more I found out the less I believed any of it.


I believe that science and the Bible agree on most issues. I don't know how old the earth is. I don't think even the scientists really know. I know they have done carbon dating and other research trying to determine the age, but as we know from history, scientific theories have a way of evolving as more knowledge is gained. IMO the age of the earth isn't that big of an issue. It's interesting, but doesn't affect the way I live my life.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine, I havs so many questions and not just about religion.
Guess I am getting old. Used to I knew everything.
I don't know what happened. I went from knowing everything to not being sure about anything.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Pancho it is called getting wiser believe it or not.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, I havs so many questions and not just about religion.
> Guess I am getting old. Used to I knew everything.
> I don't know what happened. I went from knowing everything to not being sure about anything.


Perhaps it's time for you to do a Vision Quest.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> I think it is obvious that *(1) some people feel that they have the authority to preach to other adults about how they should live their lives*.
> Seems a lot like a god complex to me.
> I would think that telling people to look within, or within the actual words of the bible would be a good idea, as opposed to seeking moral guidance from some username on an online forum.
> Lots of people around here view themselves as a religious authority with a one way personal line to God.
> *(2)True answers don't come from deluded self-righteous people*.





Laura Zone 5 said:


> What kind of people give true answers?





Haven said:


> No person does.
> *
> (3) The people trying to give answers to everyone usually have control issues that need resolved.*.



Your statement (1) 
That is a very accurate statement.
I have ALL KINDS of people telling me how I should live my life.
Every single day.

Group A tells me *I* need to be more tolerant of_____.
Group B tells me *I* need to be intolerant of _____.
Group C tells me *I* need to educate my kids this way.
Group D tells me *I* need to educate my kids that way.
Group E tells me *I* need to stay out of their bedroom.
Group F tells me *I* need to know what's going on in their bedroom.
Group G tell me *I* came from monkeys.
Group H tells me *I* was wonderfully and uniquely Created.

The list can go on and on and on.
You are very accurate when you say people feel like they have some authority on how I should live my life.

You said:
True answers do not come from deluded, self-righteous people.
I asked:
What kind of people give true answers.
You said:
No person does.

*NEW QUESTION:*
Then where do we get truth?

And to your last point:
*The people trying to give answers to everyone usually have control issues that need resolved.

*So based on the above statement of yours, go to my above example of how different groups try to tell me how to live my life........you are saying that each one of those groups (A-H) have control issues, that need to be resolved, because none of them are right?
Or because why?
Or do they not have control issues.

I give you my word I am not being a horses hind end, I am trying to understand your point.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, I havs so many questions and not just about religion.
> Guess I am getting old. Used to I knew everything.
> I don't know what happened. I went from knowing everything to not being sure about anything.


I think it's pretty normal to realize we know less than we thought we did as we age. The old adage that the older I get the wiser my parents get is, in most cases true. It's not that they are getting wiser, we are just realizing there is a lot we don't know. Believe me, I have all kinds of questions. I have questions that only God can answer, I have questions about life and death in general, I have questions about how things work. I'm worse than a 5 year old with all the questions I have. It's when we stop asking and searching for the answers that we start stagnating and stop growing. These days, with limited mobility, I have a lot of time to ponder things and the more I think on them or research them, the more I realize I don't know. Nothing wrong with asking questions, if you are asking them honestly seeking answers. I don't think there is a person on the face of the earth that has all the answers, but never stop asking the questions. As far as faith based questions, again, I don't have all the answers, in fact, I probably have very few answers for you, but I will try to be honest in the way I answer you. If I don't know the answer, I will tell you I don't know, but again, I invite you, or anyone else interested in an honest dialogue, to pm me. That way we can have an honest discussion without trolls trying to just argue. I promise you this, I will never tire of the questions. I once corresponded with a lady I met online for several years. She was an atheist and was starting to seek God. She's now 34 yrs old and a Christian, but it took many years before she found the answers that made sense to her. By accepting Christ she was disowned by her adoptive mother, who was an atheist, so for her, it was not an issue she took lightly.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> Again, religious people want others to ask questions but when they do they get bent all out of shape when they can't answer the questions.


No body here is getting bent out of shape. Sounds like you've had a bad experience with a few people who claim to be Christians, but please don't paint us all with that same brush.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

bignugly said:


> I love it when people read the Bible front to back and think they understand it. If that were true there would be only one Christian church. Everybody takes what they were taught and learned on their own to apply to their own needs. I believe that if people were to be truly Christian, you should follow the teaching of Christ only and use the other books of the New Testament as an advisory source. All other teachings in the NT are interpretation of what Christ said. I also think the Old Testament is a fantastic telling of Jewish history and laws, nothing more. Too many churches quote OT as fire and brimstone to scare people. The OT is not rellevent once Christ gave his life for us. Christian church would be far better off teaching what Christ taught and stop interpreting for Him. I have a strong belief in God and Christ but do NOT attend a "Christian" church because I find people in most churches act like the Pharisees of Christ's time.


This is the precise reason I don't believe in God.

If it has to be "taught", it isn't divine.

The all knowing, all seeing, all everything can't speak to me directly? Bull.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Or they are trying to share what little they may know on a topic because the questions were asked. Not sure how being polite and trying to answer honest questions can be described as control issues. Do you never answer questions?


Answering question about things one may have real life experience in such as k9 husbandry or creating a masterpiece painting is one thing.

Telling grown adults how to live their life, and what, and who to believe in is a totally different thing. No one person has the authority to do that, or the knowledge to present themselves as some sort of prophet who is leading other adults down some correct religious path.

The moral and ethical Christians I see are the ones who rarely post, keep their beliefs personal, and polite when it comes to religious belief; I'm sure most do not post at all because they are highly turned off by public religious prosthelytizing. Poor Vicker is immediately attacked by other Christians the moment he makes a benign post about religion simply because he doesn't push the religious agenda like a true hardliner.

I have always found that the most profound spiritual experience comes from complete silence within, not endless chattering at people while trying to convert them to your way of thinking.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> That is one of my biggest questions.
> How do people know what God had in mind? If we don't know for sure there is even a god how is it possible to know what an imiginary thing may have had in mind at one time?


How do we know what God has in mind - we read Scripture.

I regularly talk with an atheist co-worker and once asked him to describe what he calls the imaginary being that he believes others call God. After he described what he thought we all believed God was, it turns out that no Christian I know of believes in the type of being he described.
He hasn't changed his disbelief, but he admits the type God that I believe in might possibly exist.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> .
> If I would have met someone like the woman you met maybe things would have been different. I met the other kind. I met those who said they were christian people. Their actions proved different.


Couple things to remember:

1.) Christians are not perfect, we are (hopefully) all on a journey to be more Christ-like but we're all at different stages in that journey.

2.) Not everyone who says they are a Christian actually follows Christ

3.) Churches are not refuges for the perfect, they are hospitals for the ill that are trying to get better.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Haven said:


> Answering question about things one may have real life experience in such as k9 husbandry or creating a masterpiece painting is one thing.
> 
> Telling grown adults how to live their life, and what, and who to believe in is a totally different thing. No one person has the authority to do that, or the knowledge to present themselves as some sort of prophet who is leading other adults down some correct religious path.
> 
> ...


So when a person asks faith based questions, those who have faith should just remain silent??? Have a nice day.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Your statement (1)
> That is a very accurate statement.
> I have ALL KINDS of people telling me how I should live my life.
> Every single day.
> ...


No one knows for sure if a universal truth exists. If it does not exist, how can we look for it?

There is a certain form of spiritual enlightenment that a person might achieve. Once this happens you view the world as a totally different place and the answers are both found and not found in everything and nothing. You are at complete peace with yourself and the world. When this happens, you no longer ask questions or try to push beliefs upon other people. You no longer care if gay people love each other, you celebrate that love and embrace it instead of latching onto the negativity of judgment and denial. Everything just Is, and you and everything around you is complete and perfect and at peace.

I doesn't matter if an Atheist or a Christian is pushing their beliefs; it still makes them both Pushers.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I believe that science and the Bible agree on most issues. I don't know how old the earth is. I don't think even the scientists really know. I know they have done carbon dating and other research trying to determine the age, but as we know from history, scientific theories have a way of evolving as more knowledge is gained. IMO the age of the earth isn't that big of an issue. It's interesting, but doesn't affect the way I live my life.


I asked the man if he believed in carbon dating and he said he did not.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> So when a person asks faith based questions, those who have faith should just remain silent??? Have a nice day.


If you actually read my post, you would see I was talking about telling other people how to live their life, and religious prosthelytizing, not keeping silent about faith based questions. You will read it how you want, regardless. You have a nice day also.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> No body here is getting bent out of shape. Sounds like you've had a bad experience with a few people who claim to be Christians, but please don't paint us all with that same brush.


Yes, I have had several bad experiences with people who claim to be christians.

I have one rule that I try my best to go by. I treat all people just as they treat me. If a person treats me well I will do the same for them. If they treat me badly I will return it.
That may not be a good rule but it has worked for me.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> I asked the man if he believed in carbon dating and he said he did not.


I think the jury is still out on carbon dating. 

Have Scientists Discovered Flaws in Carbon Dating? - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Which is why I had stated in an earlier post that scientific theories are always evolving as more knowledge is gained.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> How do we know what God has in mind - we read Scripture.
> 
> I regularly talk with an atheist co-worker and once asked him to describe what he calls the imaginary being that he believes others call God. After he described what he thought we all believed God was, it turns out that no Christian I know of believes in the type of being he described.
> He hasn't changed his disbelief, but he admits the type God that I believe in might possibly exist.


I had a friend who was a preacher. He knew more about the bible than any person I have ever met. If you had a question he knew what part of the bible to send you to. He didn't have to think about it or look it up.
We had many discussions.
He told me after all of those years reading and studying the bible and the many years as a preacher he finally decided there was no God.

He was still a very good man and would discuss the bible with any person. He didn't try to sway a person in any way. If he was asked he would say he didn't believe in God. Not very many people actually asked him as they thought a person who led a life like his would surely believe in God.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Paumon said:


> Perhaps it's time for you to do a Vision Quest.


I have been on a vision quest, more than once.

There is something I did find out about myself during one. It is something that will be put to very good use someday.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Haven said:


> No person does.
> 
> The people trying to give answers to everyone usually have control issues that need resolved..


So why are we all on a message board then, if not to learn something from someone else or to teach someone else something?


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> So why are we all on a message board then, if not to learn something from someone else or to teach someone else something?


I havent seen any homesteaders telling people they will burn in Hell and their soul is ----ed (followed by happy dancing emoticons) because they choose to butcher a rabbit with a broomstick instead of an axe, or plant a raised bed instead of flat. See it all the time over religion though...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

To answer the question posed by the op thread title in a word.... Ego.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

time said:


> The all knowing, all seeing, all everything can't speak to me directly? Bull.


You assume these are the attributes of 'God' - I don't, that's not the God I believe in.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Haven said:


> I havent seen any homesteaders telling people they will burn in Hell and their soul is ----ed (followed by happy dancing emoticons) because they choose to butcher a rabbit with a broomstick instead of an axe, or plant a raised bed instead of flat. See it all the time over religion though...


Haven't seen it here and I don't hang around with people that do that. There is a small but very vocal group of Christians that do as you say, but for the most part the rest of us (the vast majority of Christians) are mainly quiet about their beliefs unless someone asks us something: as was done in this thread.
Its too bad because the small but vocal group has given religion a bad name.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> No one knows for sure if a universal truth exists. If it does not exist, how can we look for it?
> 
> There is a certain form of spiritual enlightenment that a person might achieve. Once this happens you view the world as a totally different place and the answers are both found and not found in everything and nothing. You are at complete peace with yourself and the world. When this happens, you no longer ask questions or try to push beliefs upon other people. You no longer care if gay people love each other, you celebrate that love and embrace it instead of latching onto the negativity of judgment and denial. Everything just Is, and you and everything around you is complete and perfect and at peace.
> 
> I doesn't matter if an Atheist or a Christian is pushing their beliefs; it still makes them both Pushers.


What if it is "not" a spiritual enlightenment?
What if is as simple as 'my truth' is that gay people love each other and I embrace that and celebrate that?
Is that ok?

What if in "my truth" I decide that everyone everywhere should ALSO accept my truth (gay people love each other) and everyone everywhere should ALSO celebrate and embrace it?
Am I a pusher then?

What if my spiritual enlightenment comes from mooga mooga, and in that enlightenment, "my truth" becomes the love and embrace of arranged marriages. 
That in "my truth" it is perfectly acceptable and celebrated and embraced that I give my 14 year old daughter to a 40 year old man in marriage?
What if this is "my truth" and I keep it to myself, only associate within circles of other like minded enlightened folks?
Is that ok?

What if this is "my truth" and I want the rest of the world to be "educated" of my truth? Taught to accept my truth, embrace my truth, celebrate my truth?
Am I then a pusher?

What is the criteria for a "pusher"?


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> You assume these are the attributes of 'God' - I don't, that's not the God I believe in.


I'm aware of that. You believe in the god you were taught to believe in. Or are 'learning' to believe in.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

time said:


> I'm aware of that. You believe in the god you were taught to believe in. Or are 'learning' to believe in.


What does that mean? That you don't believe I have the right to my own opinion? That only the atheistic point of view could be correct? Or that you've built up a straw man for the purpose of beating it down?

Straw man argument definition


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> What does that mean?


It means you are learning about God from a man. Or several men, as it were.

Heh. You added to your post.

It's not strawman. You might want to look up strawman.

It's really simple. If there was a God as described by the book, he would not need to hide and have *men* teach about him. A God would be known, personally, by each and every individual on the planet.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

time said:


> It means you are learning about God from a man. Or several men, as it were.


That's a lot to assume from a few sentences on a message board.
And my question back then would be even if that is true, so what?
You're still beating up a straw man since your original argument is, in the minds of many Christians, false.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> That's a lot to assume from a few sentences on a message board.
> And my question back then would be even if that is true, so what?
> You're still beating up a straw man since your original argument is, in the minds of many Christians, false.


 You're kinda blowing it here. His reason for not believing is just as valid as any reason you have to believe. In his mind an all powerful being wouldn't need his message spread by men, he'd be in touch with each and every one of us directly. Saying his reason for not believing is a strawman because Christians don't agree is, in a word, ignorant.

There are many types of faith in the world, many different beliefs. I'm a Christian but I assure you a very different kind than most of you on this board. My views are just as valid as yours, his just as valid as mine. You don't have to agree with either of us, it doesn't make us wrong or you right.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

bignugly said:


> I love it when people read the Bible front to back and think they understand it. If that were true there would be only one Christian church. Everybody takes what they were taught and learned on their own to apply to their own needs. I believe that if people were to be truly Christian, you should follow the teaching of Christ only and use the other books of the New Testament as an advisory source. All other teachings in the NT are interpretation of what Christ said. I also think the Old Testament is a fantastic telling of Jewish history and laws, nothing more. Too many churches quote OT as fire and brimstone to scare people. The OT is not rellevent once Christ gave his life for us. Christian church would be far better off teaching what Christ taught and stop interpreting for Him. I have a strong belief in God and Christ but do NOT attend a "Christian" church because I find people in most churches act like the Pharisees of Christ's time.


The bible says you will know my people by their ACTIONS. It doesnt say by their beliefs.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> That's a lot to assume from a few sentences on a message board.
> And my question back then would be even if that is true, so what?
> You're still beating up a straw man since your original argument is, in the minds of many Christians, false.


It's not a lot to assume.

I believe christians believe in the teachings of christ. A man.

I don't care what you believe. Your free to believe what you like.

I said I don't believe in god because it has to be taught by men. It's not strawman. It's what I believe.

There have been ferel children raised. None of them knew god. Why? Because there is no god and they were not 'taught' otherwise.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

time said:


> I said I don't believe in god because it has to be taught by men. It's not strawman. It's what I believe.


The strawman is your belief that all Christians believe in an "all knowing, all seeing, all everything" God.

You're free to believe whatever you want, but don't try to tell me what the attributes of the God I believe in are.

The "all knowing, all seeing, all everything" God is the straw man argument. You're misrepresenting something (the "all knowing, all seeing, all everything" God.) and then using it to argue against.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> How do we know what God has in mind - we read Scripture.


I agree. God's word is His will. If we want to see how God Almighty thinks we just have to look at Jesus. If we want to see what choices God would make, we look at the gospels to see what choices Jesus made. He chose to heal all who were oppressed by the devil. He chose to stop preaching and bless the children even though his disciples were trying to **** them away. He chose to forgive the woman caught in adultery rather than stone her. He chose to chase money changers out of the temple. (A lot of televangelists need to read that story again.) He chose to eat with the prostitutes and sinners. He chose to serve his flock and wash their feet. He chose to point out the sin of the woman at the well who was living with her umpteenth husband, but yet offered her living water if she would just ask.
That's the way God thinks, and what He wants.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> The strawman is your belief that all Christians believe in an "all knowing, all seeing, all everything" God.
> 
> You're free to believe whatever you want, but don't try to tell me what the attributes of the God I believe in are.
> 
> The "all knowing, all seeing, all everything" God is the straw man argument. You're misrepresenting something (the "all knowing, all seeing, all everything" God.) and then using it to argue against.


So, I can sin and god won't know? 

I think the bible says something about nasty thoughts being a sin. How is it I can be judged for such and god can't communicate with me? He must know what I'm thinking. Yet, he can't communicate with me?

No, my arguement is directly related to the religion. You simply chose to pick a couple of the words to label, rather than argue the point.

I will make it simple by re-stateing. If it has to be taught by men, there is no god.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

time said:


> If it has to be taught by men, there is no god.


That would be better said as: There is no god with the attributes you believe a god should have.

you seem to have a very specific view of the god you claim not to believe in - that's ok, I don't believe in that particular god either.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> I'm a Christian but I assure you a very different kind than most of you on this board.


Same here, although probably not the same kind as you. I used to be the "regular" kind of Christian, but now most of those folks would probably consider me a heretic. Oh well...I don't mind. I don't get too deeply into my beliefs with most of my Christian friends because they can't handle it.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

time said:


> If it has to be taught by men, there is no god.


I agree with this to an extent...I do believe there is a God, but not that it's absolutely necessary for others to teach us about him in order for us to know him. And I think a lot of the teaching about God, even among Christians, is simply false teaching.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> Y
> There are many types of faith in the world, many different beliefs. I'm a Christian but I assure you a very different kind than most of you on this board.





ryanthomas said:


> Same here, although probably not the same kind as you. I used to be the "regular" kind of Christian, but now most of those folks would probably consider me a heretic.


I just don't want to be guilty of being the "lukewarm" type. Neither cold, nor hot.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

ryanthomas said:


> I agree with this to an extent...I do believe there is a God, but not that it's absolutely necessary for others to teach us about him in order for us to know him. And I think a lot of the teaching about God, even among Christians, is simply false teaching.


I have a belief. While I say I am athiest, it's only because I have no desire to explain my belief. It's of my own thoughts, difficult to explain and I have no desire to start a religion or have others opinion on it. I do not desire a 'following' nor for others to conform.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> How is it I can be judged for such and god *can't communicate with me*?


Maybe he just doesn't WANT to


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Haven*  
_No one knows for sure if a universal truth exists. If it does not exist, how can we look for it?

There is a certain form of spiritual enlightenment that a person might achieve. Once this happens you view the world as a totally different place and the answers are both found and not found in everything and nothing. You are at complete peace with yourself and the world. When this happens, you no longer ask questions or try to push beliefs upon other people. You no longer care if gay people love each other, you celebrate that love and embrace it instead of latching onto the negativity of judgment and denial. Everything just Is, and you and everything around you is complete and perfect and at peace.

I doesn't matter if an Atheist or a Christian is pushing their beliefs; it still makes them both Pushers._






Laura Zone 5 said:


> What if it is "not" a spiritual enlightenment?
> What if is as simple as 'my truth' is that gay people love each other and I embrace that and celebrate that?
> Is that ok?
> 
> ...


Phew......Haven I thought you'd never see this!!


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> So when a person asks faith based questions, those who have faith should just remain silent??? Have a nice day.


 I think we both read that the same way... You responded much better than I would have. Thank you..
GH


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

pancho said:


> No, I don't think mankind was a mistake, just that there was no creator who decided to make mankind. Just too many things wrong with the results for it to be anything planned by anyone.


Jumping in here with a bit of a different take. I am a Christian, I have been a Christian since the age of 12. I know that I know that I know that God is real, I have had personal evidence that proved it to me. I also own a degree in anthropology and yes, I do believe Darwin. I am not going there now, too involved but, to help you with the point about there being no creator please consider the following.

Physical anthropology glass, undergrad level 300 course. The prof. spent a bunch of time diagraming and going over the plant and animal kingdoms (Linaeous' work). If you look at a diagram of these, it is clearly a hierarchal system. Hierarchies do not occur in nature on their own, they must be created. The $100,000 question then is, "Who created this?". 

I have always thought of God as a great scientist and we are all an experiment in his giant petrie dish. That also would explain free will, the experiement would be moot if the outcome were predetermined.

This is just my personal opinion, take it or leave it as you wish.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

There have been a few really great posts in this thread , and I like your's,Reb. But, we are not an experiment. God created human kind for a very specific purpose, and it will come to pass.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Ahh, but which god, Maggie? There are so many to choose from! :bouncy:


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

pancho said:


> No, I don't think mankind was a mistake, just that there was no creator who decided to make mankind. Just too many things wrong with the results for it to be anything planned by anyone.


 LOL,,, Do you know what Adam said when God first presented him with Eve?




YYYYEEEEEEEEEE HHHHHAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWW

You think Adam thought God messed up? NO? Me neither.


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> I think the jury is still out on carbon dating.
> 
> Have Scientists Discovered Flaws in Carbon Dating? - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com
> 
> Which is why I had stated in an earlier post that scientific theories are always evolving as more knowledge is gained.


C14 only works on samples that once lived, carbon based life forms, like trees, for example. For instance, at one dig I worked I took samples from a fire pit that were actually junks of charcoal formed by the wood burning incompletely (turned out to be 8,500 + or - 50 years old). Scientists have always been aware of flaws in carbon dating which is why we take so many samples. At the dig I just mentioned, I personally took about 3 samples a day all season just in my provenience. 

Having said all that geologists use other methods to date rock samples to determine their age such as paleo magnetism and several other methods I am not really familiar with since I am not a geologist but have simply worked around them some. The age of the earth would be determined using geological tests on core samples and not carbon dating. Suffice it to say the age of the planet earth is measured in billions of years.


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Ahh, but which god, Maggie? There are so many to choose from! :bouncy:


Good question and which is what prompted a long period of time for me delving into paganism. My conclusion and personal opinion only is that God is who He is and is known by many names.


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Ahh, but which god, Maggie? There are so many to choose from! :bouncy:


Many names, One God.

Edited to add, two posts in a row when I tried to edit to clarify, weird stuff all night for me posting.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> If there was a God as described by the book, he would not need to hide and have men teach about him.


He doesn't hide. Jesus specifically appointed his apostles to go out into the world & teach people about Him. That is still done today.



> I think the bible says something about nasty thoughts being a sin. How is it I can be judged for such and god can't communicate with me? He must know what I'm thinking. Yet, he can't communicate with me?


He absolutely communicates with people everyday. Some just refuse to hear Him.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Wendy said:


> He doesn't hide. Jesus specifically appointed his apostles to go out into the world & teach people about Him. That is still done today.
> 
> He absolutely communicates with people everyday. Some just refuse to hear Him.


This. Bluntly put, people who don't want to believe in Him will find a way not to. (Of course, the same is often said about the converse; but I've known a LOT more Christians who finally turned to Him AFTER trying to run from Him for years, than I have known people who 'just grew up' in church.)


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

RebelDigger said:


> Jumping in here with a bit of a different take. I am a Christian, I have been a Christian since the age of 12. I know that I know that I know that God is real, I have had personal evidence that proved it to me. I also own a degree in anthropology and yes, I do believe Darwin. I am not going there now, too involved but, to help you with the point about there being no creator please consider the following.
> 
> Physical anthropology glass, undergrad level 300 course. The prof. spent a bunch of time diagraming and going over the plant and animal kingdoms (Linaeous' work). If you look at a diagram of these, it is clearly a hierarchal system. Hierarchies do not occur in nature on their own, they must be created. The $100,000 question then is, "Who created this?".
> 
> ...


WOW! I don't have a degree in anthropology, but my beliefs, in this matter, are very similar to yours.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

RebelDigger said:


> C14 only works on samples that once lived, carbon based life forms, like trees, for example. For instance, at one dig I worked I took samples from a fire pit that were actually junks of charcoal formed by the wood burning incompletely (turned out to be 8,500 + or - 50 years old). Scientists have always been aware of flaws in carbon dating which is why we take so many samples. At the dig I just mentioned, I personally took about 3 samples a day all season just in my provenience.
> 
> Having said all that geologists use other methods to date rock samples to determine their age such as paleo magnetism and several other methods I am not really familiar with since I am not a geologist but have simply worked around them some. The age of the earth would be determined using geological tests on core samples and not carbon dating. Suffice it to say the age of the planet earth is measured in billions of years.


Which is why I had stated that I don't think anyone really knows the age of the earth, and IMO, it's really not an important issue regarding creation, since God doesn't measure time as man does.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

RebelDigger said:


> Hierarchies do not occur in nature on their own, they must be created. The $100,000 question then is, "Who created this?".
> 
> 
> 
> This is just my personal opinion, take it or leave it as you wish.


Your opinion. Others think differently.
I think I will leave it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Marshloft said:


> LOL,,, Do you know what Adam said when God first presented him with Eve?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First thing. What makes you think there ever was an Adam and Eve?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wendy said:


> He doesn't hide. Jesus specifically appointed his apostles to go out into the world & teach people about Him. That is still done today.
> 
> 
> 
> He absolutely communicates with people everyday. Some just refuse to hear Him.


And there is a special place for those who keep hearing voices and it isn't in a church.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> And there is a special place for those who keep hearing voices and it isn't in a church.


Pancho, I believe that when you first started asking questions in this thread, you were sincere. However, I also believe that with others coming in here for the sole purpose of stirring the pot then your statements have taken a turn. When you want to ask sincere questions, and not mock those who may believe something you don't agree with, you may find the answers you are seeking. Don't let those who are not seeking detour you from your own search. I won't post any more on this thread because it's no longer about seeking answers from those who are believers, but is becoming more about mocking those who believe. So if anyone would like a sincere discussion, please feel free to PM me.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

What if modern Christians are not more judgmental? What if others are just more adamant about stepping outside formerly accepted mores?

In that case, doing what we have always done (called out sin and tried to show the way to salvation) would look to those wanting to get away with negative behavior as if we are more judgmental when actually we are just doing what we have done for over 2,000 years. 

It isn't we who have changed course, it is those outside the Christian Faith who have stepped up their activity.

Every real coin has 2 sides.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Pancho, I believe that when you first started asking questions in this thread, you were sincere. However, I also believe that with others coming in here for the sole purpose of stirring the pot then your statements have taken a turn. When you want to ask sincere questions, and not mock those who may believe something you don't agree with, you may find the answers you are seeking. Don't let those who are not seeking detour you from your own search. I won't post any more on this thread because it's no longer about seeking answers from those who are believers, but is becoming more about mocking those who believe. So if anyone would like a sincere discussion, please feel free to PM me.


Sonshine, so far I haven't had a single answer to a single question.
Plenty of people are giving their opinion. Many are trying to use something to prove their opinion that has never been proven to exist.

Some people will say I need to read the bible more. If I don't think there is a god why would I believe anything I read in the bible?

That is one problem I keep coming up against. People want to use their opinion of something as proof they are right. When a person does not agree with their opinion in the first place they take their ball and go home.

It is simple. If I didn't believe in trees there should be someone who could show me a tree or at least describe a tree to me.
Too many just want to say you have to believe in trees because I do. That may be good enough for them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> What if modern Christians are not more judgmental? What if others are just more adamant about stepping outside formerly accepted mores?
> 
> In that case, doing what we have always done (called out sin and tried to show the way to salvation) would look to those wanting to get away with negative behavior as if we are more judgmental when actually we are just doing what we have done for over 2,000 years.
> 
> ...


Would you agree that 2000 years is a short time compared to the age of the earth?
What about the time people have been on this earth?

The bible says Adam and Eve were the first people. It also says they had conversations with both god and the devil.
What happened during the time between when Adam was created and the bible was written?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

pancho said:


> Would you agree that 2000 years is a short time compared to the age of the earth?
> What about the time people have been on this earth?
> 
> The bible says Adam and Eve were the first people. It also says they had conversations with both god and the devil.
> What happened during the time between when Adam was created and the bible was written?


1) I do not know the age of the earth so obviously can not answer that question.

2) After the fall sin/depravity entered the world. There have always been men of God who preached against it. 

3) The first books of the Bible give a history of that time. True it is word of mouth and since you refute the Bible to be the word of God you will not accept that. 

So basically even with answers you will refuse to accept them so what is the point in asking?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> 1) I do not know the age of the earth so obviously can not answer that question.
> 
> 2) After the fall sin/depravity entered the world. There have always been men of God who preached against it.
> 
> ...


Do you mean you can't even guess at the age of the world but do believe in something you have never seen and no other person in the world has ever seen?

Who were the men of God who preached to Adam and Eve?

No, again I haven't been given any answers, just opinions.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> Do you mean you can't even guess at the age of the world but do believe in something you have never seen and no other person in the world has ever seen?
> 
> Who were the men of God who preached to Adam and Eve?
> 
> No, again I haven't been given any answers, just opinions.


IMO by reading your posts, you are not really looking for answers.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

In a word yes. It is called Faith. I have Faith that there is something to live for outside myself and this dust bin we call the earth. I have Faith that some day I will have all the answers. 

Adam, being first had the benefit of God teaching him, he did not need men (now days we have the Bible, dictated by God, transcribed by inspired men). 

Since you want answers you will not accept I will not answer anymore.

My last statement is the same I give to my brother when we discuss this.

If you are right when I die men may think me a fool. I will be dead and so I will not care.

However if I am right, your fate will be far different than mine. 

Unfortunately once we are dead it is too late to believe and accept Faith. 

God wants all to accept him. Me? I really don't care.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> IMO by reading your posts, you are not really looking for answers.


I haven't gotten any yet. Sort of hard to tell what I am looking for when I never see one.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> God wants all to accept him. Me? I really don't care.


Now that is something I believe. In my experience most christians believe the same thing.
Accept our opinions or you are going to hell.
If you don't accept them and ask a question, the answer is usually "I really don't care".


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

No I don't care if you accept them. Do I wish you could see the light? Yes. Am I willing to waste time trying to change your ideas when there are others who need my help and actually think I can help? No. 
I have answered all your questions and you because of your opinions reject my answers. 

Fine and dandy, I agree to disagree with you. 

So I wash my feet of it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> No I don't care if you accept them. Do I wish you could see the light? Yes. Am I willing to waste time trying to change your ideas when there are others who need my help and actually think I can help? No.
> I have answered all your questions and you because of your opinions reject my answers.
> 
> Fine and dandy, I agree to disagree with you.
> ...


Can you point out one place where you answered any single question?


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Maybe he just doesn't WANT to


 You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. ~Tyler Durden


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> Now that is something I believe. In my experience most christians believe the same thing.
> Accept our opinions or you are going to hell.
> If you don't accept them and ask a question, the answer is usually "I really don't care".


Once again you are referring to a very vocal minority of Christians.

Let me ask you a question: What sort of proof will you accept?


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Kind of hard to say until you actually SEE some. I figure a good place to start is by asking you what kind of proof you would accept if I told you to send me all your money and I would send it back tenfold. Can you figure out what kind of proof you would need before you sent your money? :cowboy:


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

FourDeuce said:


> Kind of hard to say until you actually SEE some. I figure a good place to start is by asking you what kind of proof you would accept if I told you to send me all your money and I would send it back tenfold. Can you figure out what kind of proof you would need before you sent your money? :cowboy:


Low down. No one here has asked anyone for any money. We have only tried to answer questions.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Wendy said:


> He doesn't hide. Jesus specifically appointed his apostles to go out into the world & teach people about Him. That is still done today.
> 
> 
> 
> He absolutely communicates with people everyday. Some just refuse to hear Him.


Oh?

I wonder, why did god not have apostles on every continent?

There are people in the world today that have never heard of christ or the christian god.

How is it no one was ever sent to "teach" them?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

time said:


> Oh?
> 
> I wonder, why did god not have apostles on every continent?
> 
> ...


There are missions on every continent. Maybe not at the S Pole. There are some that even go to "closed countries" and risk their lives by doing so.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

The first thing that comes to my mind isn't that they are so judgemental, as much as we live in a "don't judge me" kind of world these days.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> There are missions on every continent. Maybe not at the S Pole. There are some that even go to "closed countries" and risk their lives by doing so.


Are you saying that every living person has heard the teachings of christ?

ETA: off topic but,,,,,,,,Ironically my middle name is Christian.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

time said:


> Are you saying that every living person has heard the teachings of christ?


No, I am not. But people are out there trying to share The Word.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

PrettyPaisley said:


> The first thing that comes to my mind isn't that they are so judgemental, as much as we live in a "don't judge me" kind of world these days.


 One doesn't exclude the other.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> No, I am not. But people are out there trying to share The Word.


So, what happens to those that never hear? I'm quite sure they have sinned, not knowing the "rules" and all.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

time said:


> So, what happens to those that never hear? I'm quite sure they have sinned, not knowing the "rules" and all.


Here you go. I am not going to sit here and argue with you. You read this. This is what I believe. 

What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> Here you go. I am not going to sit here and argue with you. You read this. This is what I believe.
> 
> What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?


So, they go to hell.

Kinda harsh, IMO.

Naw, if there was truely a god, he would have provided a means to know him. Word of mouth and written word based on word of mouth would be a very poor method of delivering a message so important. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

time said:


> So, they go to hell.
> 
> Kinda harsh, IMO.
> 
> Naw, if there was truely a god, he would have provided a means to know him. Word of mouth and written word based on word of mouth would be a very poor method of delivering a message so important. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least.


You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

time said:


> So, they go to hell.
> 
> Kinda harsh, IMO.
> 
> Naw, if there was truely a god, he would have provided a means to know him. Word of mouth and written word based on word of mouth would be a very poor method of delivering a message so important. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least.


Maybe you need to read it again. Or do you just want to argue?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> Once again you are referring to a very vocal minority of Christians.
> 
> Let me ask you a question: What sort of proof will you accept?


I am just asking someone to answer a few questions.
Please look back through the thread and just pick one that you would like to answer. Your choice.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven,

Post 189 and 172.......they kinda got buried, but I did have a question for you!!
Thanks!!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

pancho said:


> I haven't gotten any yet. Sort of hard to tell what I am looking for when I never see one.


I may not be able to answer all, or even any questions.....but I do know that if you truly are seeking answers to questions.......there is a class starting in September (and it runs the "school calendar") that is teaching the Book of Genesis.
This is an amazing class, that answers a lot of questions for those who are seeking real answers!!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> I am just asking someone to answer a few questions.
> Please look back through the thread and just pick one that you would like to answer. Your choice.


They've been answered, you just don't like/accept the answers. 
So I ask again, what kind of proof would you actually accept, or is the answer really that there is no form of proof you would accept?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> They've been answered, you just don't like/accept the answers.
> So I ask again, what kind of proof would you actually accept, or is the answer really that there is no form of proof you would accept?


And I will ask again. Which ones has been answered?
What proof do you have to offer for anything you have said?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Guess that answered my question.
<<shakes head and leaves, shutting door behind him>>


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> Maybe you need to read it again. Or do you just want to argue?


I read it.

My comment wasn't an arguement. It was an opinion. 

My opinion won't change untill I meet a person that knows christ, without having been taught by another person or written word.

Just the way it is.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

InvalidID said:


> You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.


Ah, yes. There is that possibility.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Possum Belly said:


> Low down.
> 
> *That's pretty judgmental of you. Kind of ironic in THIS thread.*
> 
> ...


So have I. There is an OLD method of answering questions which has been around for a long time. It's called the Socratic Method.:cowboy:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Possum Belly said:


> No, I am not. But people are out there trying to share The Word.


Ok,,, this line of discussion has brought forward a question for those a bit more familiar with the Word than myself. We all know that there have been a great many souls down through th ages that have never had the opportunity to have heard God's Word... my question is this.... What happens to those people when they take the big dirt nap? Does God forgive them and take them into heaven? or does He punish them for not being saved... even though He knows he never got around to getting His Word to their ears?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok,,, this line of discussion has brought forward a question for those a bit more familiar with the Word than myself. We all know that there have been a great many souls down through th ages that have never had the opportunity to have heard God's Word... my question is this.... What happens to those people when they take the big dirt nap? Does God forgive them and take them into heaven? or does He punish them for not being saved... even though He knows he never got around to getting His Word to their ears?


*1 Peter 4:6*

New International Version (Â©1984)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

New Living Translation (Â©2007)
That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead--so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.

English Standard Version (Â©2001)
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

New American Standard Bible (Â©1995)
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok,,, this line of discussion has brought forward a question for those a bit more familiar with the Word than myself. We all know that there have been a great many souls down through th ages that have never had the opportunity to have heard God's Word... my question is this.... What happens to those people when they take the big dirt nap? Does God forgive them and take them into heaven? or does He punish them for not being saved... even though He knows he never got around to getting His Word to their ears?


It's my belief and understanding that for those who have never heard the gospel it will be like the OT folks, before Jesus came. For them their faithfulness was counted unto them as righteousness. Since God knows the heart of man, I believe in those cases that is how they will be judged. I believe everyone has a moral compass, how they respond to it if they never heard of Jesus is how they will be judged. But again, that's just my opinion.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> In that case, doing what we have always done (called out sin and tried to show the way to salvation) would look to those wanting to get away with negative behavior as if we are more judgmental when actually we are just doing what we have done for over 2,000 years.
> 
> It isn't we who have changed course,


Sure you have! (Generic "you.") Morality changes all the time, even among Christians. A hundred and fifty years ago, many Christians saw no moral issue with owning slaves. Today, you'd probably look askance at anyone seeking to purchase other human beings. 

The Jews in Jesus' time were certain that being gay was an abomination. But they also were certain that particular races or ethnicities were inferior to them, even subhuman. (See Matthew 15: 21-28.)

I suspect the majority of Christians today would feel that the latter position is wrong, even repugnant. Yet they cling to the former ... :shrug:


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Actually WG. Prior to Jesus, the jews "*were*" the chosen race. They messed up.
Imagine that,, they were still human after all.
Don't forget,, the hebrew were also slaves for four hundred years,, deservedly so,, but yet God delivered them. And yet,, still they forgot who they belonged to. They started to set laws against spitting in the dirt on the sabbath.
Jesus shows up on the scene and gives them what for. Cut them no slack at all. Because they overstepped their boundaries. Too judgemental.. Sound familiar? I thought so.
Yet,,, Christ died on the cross for them,, and us,, forgave us,, took on all our sins,, past and present.
After Christ died,, he sent his Holy Spirit to live inside each of us who accepted him as the Messiah. Some jews accepted,, some didn't.
Prior to Jesus coming,,, they didn't have the Holy Spirit to guide them,,, I personally couldn't imagine even one day without the Holy Spirit. I would be so lost.
I'm judgemental sometimes when I forget who chose me to be his adopted son.
But thankfully, the Holy Spirit works in me and reminds me who I belong to. 
I know some folks don't like the idea of belonging to anyone... I get that.
But,, ya know,, there really is only two ways a person can go. Accepting Christ,,, or not.
When I get to know someone,, either personally,, or lets say,, even on HT,,and I can see what side they have chosen,,,, it hurts so bad,, my heart pounds,, I cry inside, and I feel like I'm having a third heart attack.

So,, you see??? We're not trying to be judgemental,, even tho some take it as such,, its that we really hurt inside,,, and we want to see you at a later date.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Marshloft said:


> When I get to know someone,, either personally,, or lets say,, even on HT,,and I can see what side they have chosen,,,, it hurts so bad,, my heart pounds,, I cry inside, and I feel like I'm having a third heart attack.
> 
> So,, you see??? We're not trying to be judgemental,, even tho some take it as such,, its that we really hurt inside,,, and we want to see you at a later date.


This. Don't get me wrong - so many Christians DO in fact take winning souls for Him as a sort of 'race' that makes them superior to others. Those who do are COMPLETELY missing the point, because even (ESPECIALLY) those who are saved are such ONLY through and because of Him. The Bible says even the faith that we have in Him is not of ourselves...so how can we be 'proud' of being saved? If a Christian's head is screwed on straight, we're abjectly grateful for salvation, because we realize what the consequence would be.

Which leads to why so many Christians hurt for those who have chosen not to believe. Cast stones and ridicule it all you want...but that IS how many people, such as myself, feel, even if others disagree.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Kung said:


> This. Don't get me wrong - so many Christians DO in fact take winning souls for Him as a sort of 'race' that makes them superior to others


I agree. And it is so unfortunate.



> Those who do are COMPLETELY missing the point, because even (ESPECIALLY) those who are saved are such ONLY through and because of Him.


one casts the seeds.
one waters.
one weeds
one adds nutrients to the soil
one stakes up the plant
Then the Son shines, and produces the fruit
one harvests!

The Holy Spirit is the One that prepares the person for salvation.
No human 'saves' anyone.



> The Bible says even the faith that we have in Him is not of ourselves...so how can we be 'proud' of being saved? If a Christian's head is screwed on straight, we're abjectly grateful for salvation, because we realize what the consequence would be.


Amen. Amen.



> Which leads to why so many Christians hurt for those who have *chosen not to believe.* Cast stones and ridicule it all you want...but that IS how many people, such as myself, feel, even if others disagree.


This is the heart of compassion. Thanks for posting this.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Amen kung!


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

(Side note - meant to say "...because we realize what the consequence would be OTHERWISE." lol)


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What if it is "not" a spiritual enlightenment?
> What if is as simple as 'my truth' is that gay people love each other and I embrace that and celebrate that?
> Is that ok?
> 
> ...


Personally I live through pleasure vs pain, karma, or law of attraction (whatever people want to call it)

Is the truth you choose for yourself, your beliefs, causing pleasure or pain for other people?

If you dislike gay people, say they are ungodly, should not have the same civil rights/marriage as you, are you causing those people pleasure or pain? If you believe that other people are ----ed to hell, you own this negative judgement, you created it, and you are the one who must hold this negative energy inside.

How will this negative, pain-causing energy come back to affect your own marriage? Your own kids? How many anti-gay parents end up having gay-children? Lots. How many of them have children who suffer or commit suicide? Lots.

If you gave your 14 y.o daughter to a pedophile for marriage you are causing her pain by forcing your beliefs onto her. If you are trying to convert other people to your beliefs and in the process, damaging that person's family relationships, this sort of behaviour will come back to haunt you. (in reference to a prior post about someone converting a non believer and in the process the girl's relationship with her only mother was ruined. How is this something to brag about?)

A pusher is considered someone who pushes their beliefs on others with little or no regard as to the pleasure or pain their ideology and judgement may cause to others. They are only hurting themselves in the long run.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Haven said:


> A pusher is considered someone who pushes their beliefs on others with little or no regard as to the pleasure or pain their ideology and judgement may cause to others. They are only hurting themselves in the long run.


I have found that, many times, the only person such people really care about is themselves.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

I consider many people in the US to not be supporters of freedom. Many are supporters of "freedom-but". They support freedom for everybody BUT they still want to control other people's lives. :cowboy:


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

FourDeuce said:


> I consider many people in the US to not be supporters of freedom. Many are supporters of "freedom-but". They support freedom for everybody BUT they still want to control other people's lives. :cowboy:


Yep. I find that their actions do not coincide with their words.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> A pusher is considered someone who pushes their beliefs on others with little or no regard as to the pleasure or pain their ideology and judgement may cause to others. They are only hurting themselves in the long run.


I agree with the above statement.

Christians *should not push their beliefs on others* with little or no regard for:
The pleasure 
The pain
Christian ideology and judgement
May cause others to feel.

Fair enough.

Now, replace the word with whatever religion, cause, agenda you like.

Replace the word "Christian" with GLBT agenda.
Replace the word "GLBT" with Green Peace.
Replace the word "Green Peace" with PETA.
Replace the word "PETA" with Islam.
Replace the word "Islam" with humanism.
Replace the word "Humanism" with.............

You get the idea.

So it is fair to say a pusher is someone who *pushes their beliefs on others with little or no regard as to the pleasure or pain their ideology and judgement may cause to others. *

So anyone in any group who tries to force others to believe THEIR beliefs, with no regard as to the pleasure or pain THEIR ideology and judgement may cause others, THEY are pushers?

Yes?


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I agree with the above statement.
> 
> Christians *should not push their beliefs on others* with little or no regard for:
> The pleasure
> ...


Yup...


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So,, you see??? We're not trying to be judgemental,, even tho some take it as such,, its that we really hurt inside,,, and we want to see you at a later date.


Awww. That's sweet, Marshy. I mean that sincerely. 

But here's the thing: Try looking at the big picture for a moment. Most ancient human societies (not just the Israelites) had a god, or gods. Most tribes, clans and nations considered their god(s) to be special and exclusive to their people (as did the Jews). People generally believed that by doing certain things to curry favor with their god(s) (like offering sacrifices or taking part in rituals) they could elicit Divine help, perhaps in battle or to make their crops grow. Conversely, doing something to anger the god(s) would result in punishment. A number of religions incorporated the idea of gods mating with human women and producing offspring, as well as resurrection from the dead. 

This is pretty much a template for ancient religions, Judaism and Christianity included. Ideas such as an atoning sacrifice are the common currency of religions around the globe. And from the vantage point of history, it looks to me as if humans are inclined to invent gods as a bulwark against the vagaries of a harsh and cruel world. We want to believe that a supernatural being will tip the odds ever so slightly in our favor! That's totally understandable ... but the evidence is sorely lacking that such a being exists. In fact, it generally points to Divine indifference, as far as I can tell. :shrug:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> Yup...


Excellent!
We can agree!:happy2:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> Awww. That's sweet, Marshy. I mean that sincerely.
> 
> But here's the thing: Try looking at the big picture for a moment. Most ancient human societies (not just the Israelites) had a god, or gods. Most tribes, clans and nations considered their god(s) to be special and exclusive to their people (as did the Jews). People generally believed that by doing certain things to curry favor with their god(s) (like offering sacrifices or taking part in rituals) they could elicit Divine help, perhaps in battle or to make their crops grow. Conversely, doing something to anger the god(s) would result in punishment. A number of religions incorporated the idea of gods mating with human women and producing offspring, as well as resurrection from the dead.
> 
> This is pretty much a template for ancient religions, Judaism and Christianity included. Ideas such as an atoning sacrifice are the common currency of religions around the globe. And from the vantage point of history, it looks to me as if humans are inclined to invent gods as a bulwark against the vagaries of a harsh and cruel world. We want to believe that a supernatural being will tip the odds ever so slightly in our favor! That's totally understandable ... but the evidence is sorely lacking that such a being exists. In fact, it generally points to Divine indifference, as far as I can tell. :shrug:


You forgot one point... Hebrews invented the ONE god Idea, casting the rest as false gods. Your average worshiper of the period believed in many gods, Just mine liked me better than yours likes you. Not that yours were "false" and evil.

That's why they were persecuted for thousands of years, they were thought backward. Not to mention the fact that they didn't get along well with their neighbors.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I prefer the old saying 

*"One Man's Religion is another Man's Hocus Pocus, one Man's Hocus Pocus is another Man's Science and one Man's Science is another Man's Religion"*

I think it says it all.


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## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> You forgot one point... Hebrews invented the ONE god Idea, casting the rest as false gods. Your average worshiper of the period believed in many gods, Just mine liked me better than yours likes you. Not that yours were "false" and evil.
> 
> That's why they were persecuted for thousands of years, they were thought backward. Not to mention the fact that they didn't get along well with their neighbors.


INVENTED? The Hebrews were NOT the first society to have monotheistic beliefs, and they certainly were not the last. 

Jews have been persecuted, that is a fact, tho I can see no biblical reason that they should be.


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## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Awww. That's sweet, Marshy. I mean that sincerely.
> 
> But here's the thing: Try looking at the big picture for a moment. Most ancient human societies (not just the Israelites) had a god, or gods. Most tribes, clans and nations considered their god(s) to be special and exclusive to their people (as did the Jews). People generally believed that by doing certain things to curry favor with their god(s) (like offering sacrifices or taking part in rituals) they could elicit Divine help, perhaps in battle or to make their crops grow. Conversely, doing something to anger the god(s) would result in punishment. A number of religions incorporated the idea of gods mating with human women and producing offspring, as well as resurrection from the dead.
> 
> This is pretty much a template for ancient religions, Judaism and Christianity included. Ideas such as an atoning sacrifice are the common currency of religions around the globe. And from the vantage point of history, it looks to me as if humans are inclined to invent gods as a bulwark against the vagaries of a harsh and cruel world. We want to believe that a supernatural being will tip the odds ever so slightly in our favor! That's totally understandable ... but the evidence is sorely lacking that such a being exists. In fact, it generally points to Divine indifference, as far as I can tell. :shrug:


Stop making sense, and post something controversial!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Rakkasan said:


> Stop making sense, and post something controversial!


One of the better General Chat posts that I've seen over the years since it started.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Rakkasan said:


> INVENTED? The Hebrews were NOT the first society to have monotheistic beliefs, and they certainly were not the last.
> 
> Jews have been persecuted, that is a fact, tho I can see no biblical reason that they should be.


Most any believer can see it .Something about others Gods maybe . :sing:
By the time some see it will be to late ,our job it to to tell others then we are in the clear . So i feel i have done my part on this thread :bow:


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## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

I am someone who is in flux. I am not sure of my faith, but I know my scripture. And that is what keeps me on the fence.

Maybe it is the news, which promotes sensationalism rather than humanity. Maybe it is the online community where people can spew hatred under the guise of anonymity. May be it is just a pure lack of faith. But the thing that turns me off more than anything is the HATRED, that is spouted out by so called "Christians". Not only just hatred, but violence as well.

Since when has Jesus condoned Violence?

I hate to say this, but I have seen too many people here, who post with hatred, ignorance, and do it in Christ's name.

And I have seen too many acts of hatred perpetrated in Christ's name to feel comfortable with it.

True Christians, need to start policing their own. Council those who harbor hate, relieve the pressures which get them angry in the first place. 

Show them that Christ is about Love, not violence.


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## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

FourDeuce said:


> I consider many people in the US to not be supporters of freedom. Many are supporters of "freedom-but". They support freedom for everybody BUT they still want to control other people's lives. :cowboy:


"Freedom" has it's costs.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Rakkasan said:


> I am someone who is in flux. I am not sure of my faith, but I know my scripture. And that is what keeps me on the fence.
> 
> Maybe it is the news, which promotes sensationalism rather than humanity. Maybe it is the online community where people can spew hatred under the guise of anonymity. May be it is just a pure lack of faith. But the thing that turns me off more than anything is the HATRED, that is spouted out by so called "Christians". Not only just hatred, but violence as well.
> 
> ...


Don't let other Christians cause you to lose your faith. You know what the book says, and you know you can't change those who read their Bibles wrong. The truth will set you free. Don't give up 
God's church has never been overly populated with true believers/ practicers. It is no different now.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Rakkasan said:


> May be it is just a pure lack of faith. But the thing that turns me off more than anything is the HATRED, that is spouted out by so called "Christians". Not only just hatred, but violence as well.


PEOPLE should not cause you to lose faith or doubt the same. I disagree with Islam, for instance; but not because of Muslims.

This being said, I would agree with you; there's too much persecution FROM Christians, I think; when there should be love shown.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Someone once said, don't compare yourself with others, or you will either become vain or bitter.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Rakkasan said:


> I am someone who is in flux. I am not sure of my faith, but I know my scripture. And that is what keeps me on the fence.
> 
> Maybe it is the news, which promotes sensationalism rather than humanity. Maybe it is the online community where people can spew hatred under the guise of anonymity. May be it is just a pure lack of faith. But the thing that turns me off more than anything is the HATRED, that is spouted out by so called "Christians". Not only just hatred, but violence as well.
> 
> ...


You make some good points, however, you forgot one thing, Christians are not perfect. We still have our full range of emotions. We still mess up. That's why it's so important not to look at man, but at what the scriptures say we are suppose to be. Paul, who wrote the largest part of the New Testament, in the book of Romans stated that the things he knew he was suppose to do, he did not do, and the things he knew he wasn't suppose to do were the things he did, so even Paul struggled with living in a Godly manner. As a Christian, I make many mistakes. I'm not a very patient person and get upset very quickly, but when I realize that I have done something against Jesus' teachings I try to make ammends and repent of what I have done. The Bible doesn't tell us not to get angry, it just tells us not to sin in our anger. Too often though, when emotions are running high, Christians, like any other person, allow those emotions to take control. It's not the way it should be, but unfortunately, as long as we live in a fallen world it's the way it will be. So if you are looking at Christians trying to find Christ, then you will not get a clear picture of who Christ is.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Rakkasan said:


> "Freedom" has it's costs.


Nobody denied that(that I could see), but these "freedom-but" supporters are trying to set themselves up as the "collectors" of the cost of freedom. If they want to be in charge of things, there are elections for that job, and we also have a Constitution to protect our rights from people who want to control our rights.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> It's not the way it should be, but unfortunately, as long as we live in a fallen world it's the way it will be.


I don't believe we live in a fallen world. Then again, I am not told how horrible our world is and how sinful the people in it are by some religion.

-religion tells you the world is fallen
-religion tells you that you are sinful
-everyone else is sinful
-people will burn in hell
-gays will burn in hell
-chik-a-fil-a sammiches are healthy meals

You could not pay me a million dollars to join a religion so full of negativity, one that literally changes a person's views of the world by creating sin and hate all over, and planting the seed of judgement in a person's mind...and that's even leaving out the Old Testament where the most horrific ancient and modern middle eastern practices are promoted most frequently.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Haven said:


> I don't believe we live in a fallen world. Then again, I am not told how horrible our world is and how sinful the people in it are by some religion.
> 
> -religion tells you the world is fallen
> -religion tells you that you are sinful
> ...


 You're intitled to your POV. albeit distorted and with-out facts. 
Christ hated religiosity as well. He hated that the jews had created so many laws for the common person,, yet,, didn't live up to thier own standards. {That has a sounding ring to it} Jesus came to set us free from those laws, and we now live by grace.
If you confuse religeon {as most do} with Christs love, and mercy, and grace,, then you are missing out.
As KUNG mentioned earlier,, God chose us,, we can't,, nor couldn't choose Him.
There are numerous religeons out their,,, even paganism is a religeon.
Personally,,, for me,,, I hate religeon. And I don't speak "christianese" all that well,, and don't care to.
I feel ba when I see a post stating all the bad things christians {so called} have thrown in someones path to make them choose another path. But,,, I can't apologize for everyone,, thats not my job.
I compare Gods love with that of a marraige relationship,, its not from emotion,, or passion,, but by choice.
God chooses to love me regardless of all the mistakes I have made in life. The love in a marraige should be the same,,,, inspite of our spouse faults,,, I chose to love her anyway.
How can a person not love someone who chooses to love you inspite of all your downfalls and faults?
God chose to love me inspite of me,,, and because of that love,, I choose to love Him back. Its really that simple.
GH


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Marshloft said:


> God chooses to love me regardless of all the mistakes I have made in life. ..
> How can a person not love someone who chooses to love you inspite of all your downfalls and faults?
> God chose to love me inspite of me,,, and because of that love,, I choose to love Him back. Its really that simple.
> GH


I love myself. What gives people or their gods the right to judge everyone and raise them to believe they are filled with downfalls and faults...Sounds like a pretty good way to develop low self esteem and a complex. More examples of religion creating a negative view of the world and theirself.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Haven said:


> I don't believe we live in a fallen world. Then again, I am not told how horrible our world is and how sinful the people in it are by some religion.
> 
> -religion tells you the world is fallen
> -religion tells you that you are sinful
> ...


No one has to tell me how horrible the world is we live in. If you think only folks that are 'religious" see it, you are sadly mistaken. As for judging, aren't you judging Christians by this very post?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Haven said:


> I don't believe we live in a fallen world. Then again, I am not told how horrible our world is and how sinful the people in it are by some religion.
> 
> -religion tells you the world is fallen
> -religion tells you that you are sinful
> ...


 I agree with you on religion.In your list,lets replace religion with Christianity.

-Christianity tells you the world is fallen. (*TRUE,fell when Adam ett the apple,and God evicted them from the garden.When that happened, we were evicted from Eden as well*
-Christianity tells you that you are sinful. *(TRUE) Just folling God's orders,warning the lost*
-everyone else is sinful.Christianity says we all are sinners,Christians included.
1 John 1:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
-people will burn in hell.(TRUE,If they do not accept Jesus Christ)
-gays will burn in hell ((TRUE )So will everybody else, If they don't accept Jesus Christ) 
-chik-a-fil-a sammiches are healthy meals (Not sure of healthy,but they are dang sure tasty)


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Haven said:


> More examples of religion creating a negative view of the world and theirself.


Well Praise The Lord, Im glad you noticed.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Haven said:


> I love myself. What gives people or their gods the right to judge everyone and raise them to believe they are filled with downfalls and faults...Sounds like a pretty good way to develop low self esteem and a complex. More examples of religion creating a negative view of the world and theirself.


 I'm pretty sure we are supposed to love ourselves,, no denying that.
But,, something about humbleness comes to mind. Realizing,we are not perfect.
Admittedly,, I have seen many a people go thru life and have not a thought as to needing God. And they have done quite well.
Maybe,, for me,,, its two fold,, If I hadn't found Gods forgiveness, I'm not sure I would have made it this far. I'm pretty sure, I would have done something I would have regretted later.
And then,, I have 2 very wonderfull boy's that I am responsible for. Part of that responsibility lies in teaching them about who God is. And where He fits in their individual life. If I fail in that endeaver,, I have totally failed as a parent,,, regardless as to how they grow up and become successful in life.
I could die and be buried in a poppers grave,, and I wouldn't care. But knowing where my boy's heart is toward God makes me a happy camper.
I am a proud father of 2 more of Gods children. I'm pretty sure I havn't done all of what God has asked me to do on this earth. But I know I'll see my boys again.
GH


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I personally find that the more I have to 'convince' someone of something, the more likely it is that the hearer that I am trying to convince, is not interested......and will say and do just about anything to get me to shut up.

Matthew 7:6 is not talking about jewelry or breakfast. 
Pearls were precious stones to the Gentiles. Swine was a big no no to the Jews.
It's not a 'literal' thing....the meaning is deeper.

Why take what is precious, something of great value, and toss it out there to be stomped on, pooped on, ground into the mud,?

Matthew 10:13-15. 

The only thing we are doing here on page 10 is :bdh:

Haven, you answered all my questions and I thank you so much for taking the time to do so. Pancho, thank you for your kind words on another thread.
I know both of you do not believe like I do, and I do not believe like you do.
It's choices we make. I try very hard not to be offensive (intentionally) and when I do come across like a jerk, I do try to own it and apologize. 
If I have been a jerk in this thread, please forgive me.


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## home~girl (Nov 26, 2005)

pancho said:


> Do you mean you can't even guess at the age of the world but do believe in something you have never seen and no other person in the world has ever seen?
> 
> Who were the men of God who preached to Adam and Eve?
> 
> No, again I haven't been given any answers, just opinions.


Pancho,

You asked good intelligent questions. I don't even propose to have an answer for you. I do believe in a Higher Power and I find the teachings of Jesus ( at least most) to be in line with my desire to behave as a human being.

The reason *I* believe in Higher Power is personal to me. I won't explain it to people who would argue the finer points of it with me. Like I said, it's personal. I hope you find some peace .. I really do.

If I wrote my actual beliefs on here, I'd get verbally stoned, so I stay away from it all. However I found the original poster's question valid, as I do yours. 

May you find what you are looking for. Sorry I can't give you answers, but I feel for you .. hugs


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Haven said:


> I don't believe we live in a fallen world. Then again, I am not told how horrible our world is and how sinful the people in it are by some religion.
> 
> -religion tells you the world is fallen
> -religion tells you that you are sinful
> ...


How in the world can one NOT believe we live in a fallen world? I don't believe the world is going to the proverbial hell in a handbasket because 'my religion tells me so.' :hohum: I believe such because statistics support it. List pretty much ANY crime, and look up statistics on said crime 100 or so years ago, and compare them to current statistics. ALL of them have increased in frequency and magnitude.

I can go on and list empirical, statistical 'proof' but it's not necessary. I will say, however, that while I'm definitely a Christian, no, we don't all just believe what our faith/religion says, just because it says it. Some of us actually can back up our beliefs with corroborating evidence (although obviously, at some point, yes, things must be taken on faith - after all, it wouldn't be 'faith' otherwise).


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> How in the world can one NOT believe we live in a fallen world?


Ehh. I believe humans are opportunistic. Like all other animal species, we crave food, shelter, sexual gratification and other forms of pleasure. A wise and orderly society makes these things available to individuals who follow a fairly altruistic social compact, and it punishes the antisocial ones in order to deter bad behavior. Other places ... not so much. 

Within the realm of human governance, we have places like Sweden on the one hand, and Haiti on the other. Both are run by humans, but with vastly difference outcomes.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ok, I've had computer problems and haven't been online for a while so I didn't go back and read all the post. But here goes.

I hate to tell ya'll but Christians are *supposed* to be judgmental. We are given THE standard and if we see someone not living to that standard its our responsibility to point it out to them. Think about it this way. You are doing something which unknown to you is illegal. Wouldn't you really rather have someone point it out to you so you can stop BEFORE the cops catch you?

Now with that said once we have pointed out the problem its up to the other person to decide if he wants to change or not. IOW, Christians are not to keep pounding someone over and over and over. Once they have been told we are supposed to be there to help if asked or walk away if they don't want help. Just as in my example. Once you are told your actions are illegal you have to decide if you want to stop or keep on doing it knowing the risk involved. We aren't the cops so we shouldn't try to force you to stop what you are doing.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Within the realm of human governance, we have places like Sweden on the one hand, and Haiti on the other. Both are run by humans, but with vastly difference outcomes.


Speaking of Kung's statistics, places labeled "ungodly and socialist" like Sweden have very interesting statistics on happiness, longevity, health care and crime rates, etc; those countries look like a utopia compared to US.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Haven said:


> Speaking of Kung's statistics, places labeled "ungodly and socialist" like Sweden have very interesting statistics on happiness, longevity, health care and crime rates, etc; those countries look like a utopia compared to US.


I didn't say that 'Christians nations' are obviously happier, live longer, are healthier, etc. I said that statistics pretty much EVERYWHERE show, over time, that crime rates increase, callousness towards our fellow man increases, concern for the same decreases, etc.

To me, the reason a lot of Christian nations are NOT as 'happy/healthy/etc.' is very simple. Two reasons, actually:

1. What people 'perceive' as God's will and what is probably ACTUALLY God's will are often vastly different, and sometimes diametrically opposed.

2. Because of #1, suddenly Christians discover that being a Christian may actually be Hard Workâ¢, that God doesn't automatically just fix stuff (if anything, we'll get tested MORE), and so on. Then they get frustrated, make excuses, try to escape reality, ignore what the Gospel actually teaches, and much of that leads to a lack of the above listed traits.

I don't think Sweden's 'ungodliness' or 'socialism' makes them happier. Rather, I think that for most Christians, eventually their false/fairy-tale construct of God/Christianity gets shattered when they find out what the Bible ACTUALLY says and what they are ACTUALLY supposed to do to spread His Word. LOL Extrapolate that to a large scale...and you have a 'Christian' nation that is in reality a lot worse off than other nations.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

"I said that statistics pretty much EVERYWHERE show, over time, that crime rates increase, callousness towards our fellow man increases, concern for the same decreases, etc."

You forgot to mention that the young whippersnappers are much more disrespectful to their elders. People often mention that as an indicator that things are getting bad.
I once saw a picture of something written on a wall in ancient Greece or Rome. It was a comment from one of the elders about how disrespectful the young whippersnappers were getting to their elders.:sob:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

watcher said:


> Ok, I've had computer problems and haven't been online for a while so I didn't go back and read all the post. But here goes.
> 
> I hate to tell ya'll but Christians are *supposed* to be judgmental. We are given THE standard and if we see someone not living to that standard its our responsibility to point it out to them. Think about it this way. You are doing something which unknown to you is illegal. Wouldn't you really rather have someone point it out to you so you can stop BEFORE the cops catch you?
> 
> ...


I guess you don't *accept* the "judge not lest ye be judged" part, then?


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> "I said that statistics pretty much EVERYWHERE show, over time, that crime rates increase, callousness towards our fellow man increases, concern for the same decreases, etc."
> 
> You forgot to mention that the young whippersnappers are much more disrespectful to their elders. People often mention that as an indicator that things are getting bad.
> I once saw a picture of something written on a wall in ancient Greece or Rome. It was a comment from one of the elders about how disrespectful the young whippersnappers were getting to their elders.:sob:


I didn't think I had to mention disrespect amongst the younger generations; that's pretty much obvious and understood. LOL


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I don't think Sweden's 'ungodliness' or 'socialism' makes them happier. Rather, I think that for most Christians, eventually their false/fairy-tale construct of God/Christianity gets shattered when they find out what the Bible ACTUALLY says and what they are ACTUALLY supposed to do to spread His Word.


What? You mean it's not enough just to eat at Chick Fil-A?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> What? You mean it's not enough just to eat at Chick Fil-A?


Not until you know just where chickens from.Don't let that egg fool you.:nana:


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Kung said:


> I didn't say that 'Christians nations' are obviously happier, live longer, are healthier, etc. I said that statistics pretty much EVERYWHERE show, over time, that crime rates increase, callousness towards our fellow man increases, concern for the same decreases, etc.
> 
> To me, the reason a lot of Christian nations are NOT as 'happy/healthy/etc.' is very simple. Two reasons, actually:
> 
> ...


 This needs to be saved for all time and eternity. And I'm serious.
GH


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> What? You mean it's not enough just to eat at Chick Fil-A?


LOL - no kidding. I'm one of those who wonders why the same fervor that people are 'supporting 'Chick-Fil-A by stuffing their face with sammiches can't be applied to actually DOING something for His kingdom.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Kung said:


> LOL - no kidding. I'm one of those who wonders why the same fervor that people are 'supporting 'Chick-Fil-A by stuffing their face with sammiches can't be applied to actually DOING something for His kingdom.


That is easy to understand.
Which one would most people prefer to do?
Set in a air conditioned place eating something other people prepared and letting others clean up after you, or going out and actually doing something.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> I guess you don't *accept* the "judge not lest ye be judged" part, then?


You might want to read the Bible for yourself. 

The rest of the verse tells you when you judge you will be judged by the same standard. IOW, you can't judge someone when you are involved in the same sin.

If you read on just a bit after the don't judge part you will see what I mean. From the TNIV
_
âWhy do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brotherâs eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, âLet me take the speck out of your eye,â when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brotherâs eye._

If you read that you will see it says after you have removed your plank you are supposed to help your brother remove the speck from his eye. It doesn't say after you get the plank out you just ignore your brother.

Ever gotten a speck in your eye? Remember how bad it hurt? Think how cruel would it be if after I got something out of my eye I allowed you to suffer with something in your eye. How cruel would it be if after I got my Christian life in order I just looked at you and said "You're on your own with your pain and problems because I can't judge you."


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

pancho said:


> That is easy to understand.
> Which one would most people prefer to do?
> Set in a air conditioned place eating something other people prepared and letting others clean up after you, or going out and actually doing something.


Well of course it's easy to understand....my question was somewhat rhetorical.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Rakkasan said:


> It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.
> 
> Christ redeems ALL sins. Every single one of them. Even ones that are abominations.
> 
> ...


Most Christians seem to think that God is on vacation, and has left them in charge while he is gone.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

edcopp said:


> Most Christians seem to think that God is on vacation, and has left them in charge while he is gone.


If you check most Christian's actions with standard (the Bible) you will find they are not really Christians. Even Christ himself told us this. 

_Matthew 7:22-24 (TNIV)

22 Many will say to me on that day, âLord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?â 23 Then I will tell them plainly, âI never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!â _


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> LOL - no kidding. I'm one of those who wonders why the same fervor that people are 'supporting 'Chick-Fil-A by stuffing their face with sammiches can't be applied to actually DOING something for His kingdom.


From an outsider's perspective, it seems the most pressing issues in Christianity are gay marriage and abortion.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> From an outsider's perspective, it seems the most pressing issues in Christianity are gay marriage and abortion.


Unfortunately that's when you 'see them' the most. And it's not a pretty picture.

Little girl I worked with was considering an abortion.
She knows how I view that topic, and why.
She asked me "are you one of those who stand in front of an abortion clinic and scream "murderer, baby killer'.
I said, no.....those are horrible people. 
I went on to tell her "if they REALLY Believed Scripture, they would extend their hand, offer the woman (and her children if she had kids) a home to live in, food to eat, medical attention, etc for the duration of the pregnancy. They would offer this woman whatever she needed to carry this pregnancy through till the baby was born AND THEN if the mom kept the baby....if that meant keeping her and the baby for a period of time after he/she was born so mom could get on her feet......DO IT!
So no, you'd never see me screaming baby killer at anyone.

Few weeks later, she was 'going to go see her cousin in a different state'.....(code for out of state abortion). 
I looked her in the eye and said:
I love you, and I love this baby. My home is your home. You can come live with us, and stay with us as long as you need (she was in college at the time).
I gave her a key to my house and told her "give me 1 day's notice so I can have you a room ready".

She balled. She knew I *knew* what she was about to do.
I prayed, a lot for that young lady.
The following tuesday, she showed up at work, with sonogram pictures, and my house key. She showed me the photos that were taken that day, of her baby girl. She hands me the key and said "you thought I was going to have an abortion" I said "yes I did"........she said "I'm not gonna". I said "my offer is a standing offer, my home is yours if you need it" (baby daddy was NOT too keen on being a daddy at the time.

Today, they are married and just had their 2nd girl. She is the happiest home maker I have ever met.


Willow, the TV,.....but really any media for that matter is gonna only show the 'dark side' of any religion. 
It's never gonna show the other side.....even if they could see it. 
It is the nature of the Beast.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Laura your post made me cry.
I am what my mom would call a tough old broad when it comes to emotions. I don't cry.

I did that same kind of thing once. Unfortunately the young woman refused. She said she did not want to be pregnant right then.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

MJsLady said:


> Laura your post made me cry.
> *I am what my mom would call a tough old broad when it comes to emotions. I don't cry.
> *
> I did that same kind of thing once. Unfortunately the young woman refused. She said she did not want to be pregnant right then.


I hate to cry.
I almost cracked up last night having dinner with a friend. I was talking about my kids getting older and moving on.....and it was instant vomit in my mouth and tears in my eyes. Took me 3 min to pull it together.......
Once I start, I can't stop......so I try not to start, period.

This same young lady which I posted about, was like the young woman who refused your offer in your post.....only a year earlier......and it was gut wrenching for me. I am so thankful she chose differently the second time. I hate what she did but I love her. I LOVE LOVE her, like my own child, love her. And I just kept on loving her.....and she knew I hated her choice, but loved her.
She still knows that today.....6 years later!! ( That I love her! )


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> From an outsider's perspective, it seems the most pressing issues in Christianity are gay marriage and abortion.


What Laura said. I can't and won't fault people for their beliefs; after all, we're all entitled to them. However, while I do strongly disagree with abortion, and always will, homosexuality seems to be the 'sin du jour' of the day. It appears that for many Christians, it's 'better' to be a glutton, or greedy, or adulterous, than it is to be homosexual.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Right Kung. Unfortunately may will be very surprised when they meet the Lord at death.

No one is better or more sinless than another. We all sin and fall short.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Kung said:


> What Laura said. I can't and won't fault people for their beliefs; after all, we're all entitled to them. However, while I do strongly disagree with abortion, and always will, homosexuality seems to be the 'sin du jour' of the day. It appears that for many Christians, it's 'better' to be a glutton, or greedy, or adulterous, than it is to be homosexual.


Agreed.... Sin is sin in God's Eyes. Speeding is a sin as are the others listed above. I do not intentionally sin. If I do, I ask for forgiveness and do my level best to REPENT and try not to do that particular thing again. Homosexuals do not consider their lifestyle as sin. They tell God and others that God was wrong or the Bible does not say that it is sin. I am pretty sure that is the rub.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The one thing that seems to bother me the most about christians is they want everyone to respect their religion and make allowances for them but do not think other people deserve the same freedom.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

pancho said:


> The one thing that seems to bother me the most about christians is *they want everyone to respect their religion and make allowances for them but do not think other people deserve the same freedom*.


Agreed.

That is why they took the Bible and prayer, and moment's of silence, and anything to do with God the Creator or Jesus the Savior out of schools.
Off of public property, etc.
I'm ok with that. Teaching faith/religion is NOT the schools responsibility. It is the parents, period. Period.

I have the same rub you do pancho.

The _________ Agenda wants everyone to respect their "religion, lifestyle, etc" and make allowances for them and THEIR choices, but do not think other people deserve the same freedom. 

I whole heartedly agree. 
That rubs me too!:happy2:

But at the end of the day? What will be, will be. I am only accountable, for me.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

pancho said:


> The one thing that seems to bother me the most about christians is they want everyone to respect their religion and make allowances for them but do not think other people deserve the same freedom.


And of course ALL Christians do this. I'm so glad you're not stereotyping.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Kung said:


> And of course ALL Christians do this. I'm so glad you're not stereotyping.


No, from the examples of christians I know, just telling the truth.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Pancho, I appreciate your view, but I'm sure you know more Christians than that.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

vicker said:


> Pancho, I appreciate your view, but I'm sure you know more Christians than that.


I know a lot that say they are christians. Can't think of a single one that I think is a christian. I do know some very good people, both christian and non religious. I just don't know any that lead the type of life I think a christian should.
Maybe I am too judgemental. I usually see things as right or wrong, not much middle ground.
It is my opinion that if a person is going to judge others by some book they should live their life by the same book. The people I know pick and choose what parts they want to follow. They then judge other people by their rules and not the rules in their book.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Oh, ok 
Look in the mirror and read that post 5 times.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I sure wish the devout Christian who lives across the road from me and has been harassing me for 5 years would stumble across that "Love thy neighbor" part!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

vicker said:


> Oh, ok
> Look in the mirror and read that post 5 times.


Why should I read it five times when I was the one who wrote it.
Looking in the mirror at tha same time seems sort of hard to do while reading.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

pancho said:


> I know a lot that say they are christians. Can't think of a single one that I think is a christian. I do know some very good people, both christian and non religious. I just don't know any that lead the type of life *I think* a christian should.


Emphasis mine.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Kung said:


> Emphasis mine.


What would you suggest, let other people do the thinking for you?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I don't see how modern Christians can be considered judgemental at least compared to their forebears unless there's a Church sponsored crusade going on that I don't know about.

I do like that forgiveness policy. Nothing like having a get out of hell free card at least the way early Christians understood it.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

pancho said:


> What would you suggest, let other people do the thinking for you?


Oh, one can think all they want. My point is that we all have differing viewpoints on Christianity; therefore the reason most Christians SHOULD utilize the Bible and their minds to make it up for themselves.

That, and I believe that what most 'think' constitutes a Christian lifestyle, and what DOES, are probably vastly different.


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

Agree with that Kung.
Brings to mind an old indian proverb "Walk a mile in my shoes....."


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> I just don't know any that lead the type of life *I think a Christian should.*


Then I am one Christian who is glad you are not my ultimate judge. Come to think of it I am glad I am not my ultimate judge either cuztry as i might I can not live up to my own expectations.

Christian = saved not perfect.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> Then I am one Christian who is glad you are not my ultimate judge. Come to think of it I am glad I am not my ultimate judge either cuztry as i might I can not live up to my own expectations.
> 
> Christian = saved not perfect.


Would you like for your fellow believes to just ignore it when you are going astray or would you rather they judge your actions and follow the Bible's teaching on how to deal with you?


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## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> That is why they took the Bible and prayer, and moment's of silence, and anything to do with God the Creator or Jesus the Savior out of schools.
> Off of public property, etc.
> ...


You dear, are one of the Christians who "get" it. Blessings be upon you.


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## Rakkasan (Sep 27, 2008)

watcher said:


> Would you like for your fellow believes to just ignore it when you are going astray or would you rather they judge your actions and follow the Bible's teaching on how to deal with you?


Just what are those teachings?

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
Leviticus 24:16

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. 
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 (Oh, BTW, that includes RAPE victims, who were virgins when they were raped).

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. 
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Yah, you got a lot of stoning ahead of you, based on your concept of "Biblical Teachings"... 

If you were a true student of the bible, you would never said what you did.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

watcher said:


> I hate to tell ya'll but Christians are *supposed* to be judgmental. We are given THE standard and if we see someone not living to that standard its our responsibility to point it out to them. Think about it this way. You are doing something which unknown to you is illegal. Wouldn't you really rather have someone point it out to you so you can stop BEFORE the cops catch you?


This is one of a few postings I agree with. HOWEVER, the New Testament clearly teaches that Christians are only allowed to judge other Christians, not those outside their church.

For my faith, it means we aren't even allowed to judge anyone of another "Christian faith" except our own. This is why I am forbidden to serve on a jury. I'm not allowed to judge outside my own faith.

Everyone is judgmental. Yes, Christians are taught in the New Testament to judge certain things provided, they are ONLY judging other members of their faith. 

The problem we have in society today is that Christians want to judge all of society and make all of society heed to their judgments through legislation. Christians have no business being involved in government or politics, but that's for another discussion. lol


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

watcher said:


> Would you like for your fellow believes to just ignore it when you are going astray or would you rather they judge your actions and follow the Bible's teaching on how to deal with you?


If they follow the Bible teachings they will admonish me not judge me. If i refuse the admonishment they are to walk away and leave me to my fate.


There is only 1 judge, God himself. Judgement comes at death and not before.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Rakkasan said:


> Just what are those teachings?
> 
> "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
> Leviticus 24:16
> ...


If you call yourself a Jew then you'd follow those teachings. But being Christian you are not bound by the old laws.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

PaulNKS said:


> This is one of a few postings I agree with. HOWEVER, the New Testament clearly teaches that Christians are only allowed to judge other Christians, not those outside their church.


So we are to ignore the actions of non-Christians? I don't think so. We are told to judge their actions and point out to them where they are failing. The difference is if they ignore us we are to walk away. There is a completely different set of rules for fellow believers.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> So we are to ignore the actions of non-Christians? I don't think so. We are told to judge their actions and point out to them where they are failing. The difference is if they ignore us we are to walk away. There is a completely different set of rules for fellow believers.


Chapter and verse please.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> If they follow the Bible teachings they will admonish me not judge me. If i refuse the admonishment they are to walk away and leave me to my fate.
> 
> 
> There is only 1 judge, God himself. Judgement comes at death and not before.


How can they admonish you if they can't judge your actions to see if they are up to the standards given by Christ?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Possum Belly said:


> Speeding is a sin as are the others listed above..


Speeding is not a sin, its a violation of Mans law, not Gods.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> Speeding is not a sin, its a violation of Mans law, not Gods.


You need to read the book of Romans.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Speeding is not a sin, its a violation of Mans law, not Gods.


 If you're gonna get technical,, then lets get to the root of sin.
God see's your heart, if you know in your heart what you are doing is wrong,(in this case speeding) then yes,, its a sin.
If I'm speeding down the highway doin over a 100 to get to the nearest hospital because my boy is bleeding to death, I am not sinning, as God knows my heart.
GH


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> Speeding is not a sin, its a violation of Mans law, not Gods.





Possum Belly said:


> You need to read the book of Romans.


Romans NIV
13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Possum Belly said:


> Romans NIV
> 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
> 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.


So the king makes a law that you can worship no one but him, do you violate what Paul said (Paul not being God) or do you follow it?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Judging is convicting.
Admonishing is teaching.
Only God can convict of spiritual sin.
Just as judges of man's law can judge one for breaking that, God judges us for breaking his law and he does so at the end of time.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> So the king makes a law that you can worship no one but him, do you violate what Paul said (Paul not being God) or do you follow it?


Of course not. That would go against God's Law. Obey man's law until it goes against God's law.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So we are to ignore the actions of non-Christians? I don't think so. We are told to judge their actions and point out to them where they are failing. The difference is if they ignore us we are to walk away.


If Christians could stick to doing that, and stop trying to shape the secular laws to make everyone behave like Christians are supposed to, I'd have no argument with them. 

Enforce your rules among yourselves and leave the rest of us alone ... please!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

God gave us 10 laws to follow - Christ boiled those 10 down to 2 (which is the essence of the 10), Paul however added a whole bunch, do you follow God and Christ? or Paul?
If its Paul's laws you follow then please call yourself a Paulite


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

It didn't take long, either, for a whole new list of rules to be trotted out, did it?

I am of the opinion that humans _like_ rules ... not to keep us from going astray, but to let us know exactly how much we can get away with!


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> God gave us 10 laws to follow - Christ boiled those 10 down to 2 (which is the essence of the 10), Paul however added a whole bunch, do you follow God and Christ? or Paul?
> If its Paul's laws you follow then please call yourself a Paulite


I try to follow God's Word. I fall short sometimes, but I try. You can call your version whatever you want.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Did Paul meet Christ or not? If Paul met Christ it stands to reason he got information from Christ that Christ wanted passed on yes?

Paul only put into words the things God gave him. Just as the other writers of the book did.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Good grief,,, If Paul wrote it, God said it, and Christ approved.
Or visa versa,,,


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Did Paul meet Christ? Not according to scripture, and all we have is his word about what happened on the road to Damascus -- of course that makes no different to someone who thinks the Bible is somehow supernaturally made and kept perfect. But all you have to do is to read it and learn its history to know that's a false assumption.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Did Paul meet Christ? Not according to scripture, and all we have is his word about what happened on the road to Damascus -- of course that makes no different to someone who thinks the Bible is somehow supernaturally made and kept perfect. But all you have to do is to read it and learn its history to know that's a false assumption.


 You're right, Paul was immediately blinded, and it took 3 days and a prayer warrior to get the scales to fall off.
Can I point out something here?
God has stated we as christians are responsible for those we don't share the gospel with, when the opportunity arises. Their blood is on our hands. Not meaning we pound it over ones head as some believe.
I always wondered what happened to those we shared Gods word with,, and then someone else came along and refuted our words. What does God think of those people? What happens to them on judgement day?
Just sayin.
GH


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Sometimes I wonder if some people who call themselves Christians actually read the Bible: start to finish. My guess is they just cherry pick what they want to read and believe what others tell them 'it really means'


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if some people who call themselves Christians actually read the Bible: start to finish. My guess is they just cherry pick what they want to read and believe what others tell them 'it really means'


 I wouldn't doubt that one little bit.
It happens. And besides,,, its not about reading from start to finish, altho thats not a bad thing, at least they're trying.
Its more like flying over your property in an airplane, ( reading thru)
Then getting on the ground and walking the property, Getting down to business and comparing scripture.)
Then getting on your hands and knees and digging in the dirt, (getting out the ole hebrew and greek dictionary)
Its like digging for gold,, Gods word is kinda like that,, your heart pounds,,, and you know the truth is there,, but ya gotta dig, and ask God to show you His truths.
Pretty simple actually.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> So we are to ignore the actions of non-Christians? I don't think so. We are told to judge their actions and point out to them where they are failing. The difference is if they ignore us we are to walk away. There is a completely different set of rules for fellow believers.





Laura Zone 5 said:


> Chapter and verse please.


Please.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> God gave us 10 laws to follow - Christ boiled those 10 down to 2 (which is the essence of the 10), Paul however added a whole bunch, do you follow God and Christ? or Paul?
> If its Paul's laws you follow then please call yourself a Paulite


YOU are totally right.
You cannot 'follow laws' for the sake of Salvation. Not the OT or NT.

If we are going by "The Law", unless I am mistaken, there are more than "10".
Those are the "10" Commandments, but, The Law was Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and some in Exodus. "The Law" was HUGE....enormous (purposely) as I understand it.

I have heard this: If we as humans try to "keep" the 10 Commandments to get into heaven, we should imagine them as 10 links of chain that we are holding onto that is keeping us from falling off a cliff to our death.
It only takes 1 link to break, and we die.
Ditto for the 10 Commandments. We only have to break 1. Then we are toast.
Christ's sacrifice on the cross took care of that.

Follow Paul? 
He has 'seen' that problem before, and addressed it. 
The Holy Spirit penned it through Paul, because HE KNEW this would be a problem for all time.......

*1 Corinthians 1:10-17*

10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
11 My brothers, some from Chloe&#8217;s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
12 What I mean is this: One of you says, &#8220;I follow Paul&#8221;; another, &#8220;I follow Apollos&#8221;; another, &#8220;I follow Cephas&#8221;; still another, &#8220;I follow Christ.&#8221;
13 *Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?*
14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 
15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don&#8217;t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 
17 *For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel&#8212;not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.*

Paul didn't write anything.
The Holy Spirit, through a human hand, wrote The Word.

*2 Timothy 3:16-17*

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It does not say All Scripture is God-breathed for bashing each other (and non-believers) in the head with.
It does not say All Scripture is God-breathed for you to personally interpert then demand everyone else bow to your interpertation.
It does not say All Scripture is God-breathed for you to show how awesome and holy you are, and what a turd everyone else is.
No.
It is so that the man (or woman) of God, may be THOROUGHLY equipped for EVERY GOOD work.
(Calling all Believers........)
What Good Work are we doing here in this thread?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The Holy Spirit penned it through Paul, because HE KNEW this would be a problem for all time.......


So the Holy Spirit penned every word in the Bible, is that what you are saying?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if some people who call themselves Christians actually read the Bible: start to finish. My guess is they just cherry pick what they want to read and believe what others tell them 'it really means'


Christ told us there are many who will call themselves Christians who are not.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Please.


Matthew 18; 15-17

_15 âIf a brother or sister sins,[a] go and point out the fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that âevery matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.â* 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. *_


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if some people who call themselves Christians actually read the Bible: start to finish. My guess is they just cherry pick what they want to read and believe what others tell them 'it really means'


Some people read it front to back many times during their lives but don't understand it because they did not study it. Then there are some people who are just trolls.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Simply reading it won't do a person any good. You have to study it and be willing to believe (have Faith) in something other than humanity before it will work for you.

Personally I would rather follow it than any of the other baloney out that I have read. 

If I am wrong once I am dead I may be thought a fool but I won't care cuz I'll be dead. If I am right and it does matter those who do not believe will have a rude awakening. Either way I am a better person now than I was before Christ found me. 

As to Paul, a murderer making a drastic life change and becoming himself the murdered is a pretty good indicator that something important happened to him. Knowing as Saul did the fate of those clinging to Christ, he would not have done so had Christ not got hold of him good and proper. So much so that he not only threw off the old life but the old, honored family name as well. He gave up his birthright which to a Jew is the most important thing that makes them who they are.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if some people who call themselves Christians actually read the Bible: start to finish. My guess is they just cherry pick what they want to read and believe what others tell them 'it really means'


By ignoring the teachings of Paul you are doing the very thing you accuse others of, cherry picking scripture. It is easy to ignore things you don't understand or believe. Peter gives credentials to Paul, so if you wish to ignore Paul, you must ignore Peter too. Paul's teachings are deep and Peter says so, but that does not make them wrong.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> Matthew 18; 15-17
> 
> _15 âIf a brother or sister sins,[a] go and point out the fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that âevery matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.â* 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. *_


*

Right, this is how BELIEVERS are to handle EACH OTHER.
I am asking for the Scriptures that tell Belivers to JUDGE THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH (non-believers)*


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> So the Holy Spirit penned every word in the Bible, is that what you are saying?


Yes.
Through the hands of different humans, The Holy Spirit wrote the Word.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Yes.
> Through the hands of different humans, The Holy Spirit wrote the Word.


Thanks for the reply. I now know where you are coming from and we'll never see eye to eye as I do not believe the same as you do about the Bible.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

watcher said:


> Matthew 18; 15-17
> 
> _15 âIf a brother or sister sins,[a] go and point out the fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that âevery matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.â* 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. *_


*

How are Christians supposed to treat Pagans and tax collectors?...lol*


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Haven said:


> How are Christians supposed to treat Pagans and tax collectors?...lol


Walk away and leave them alone.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Haven said:


> How are Christians supposed to treat Pagans and tax collectors?...lol


Well one of Christ's Apostles was a tax collector, so.........


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> Well one of Christ's Apostles was a tax collector, so.........


Converted...tax collector....
He put down his thieving ways to follow Christ.
That the beauty.
Heaven will be filled with bad people, who traded their bad for Christ and His Ways.
And Hell will be full of good people, those who just white washed the outside to look good, but followed the ways of the evil one!

That right there is why they call it The Good News!!


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh ok. So non Christians are lumped in with hated tax collectors. That reminded me what the title of this thread is about.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> Oh ok. So non Christians are lumped in with hated tax collectors. That reminded me what the title of this thread is about.


Nothing anyone could have said would have made you think any different.:kiss:

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the OP was asking a question, and seeking an answer from "christians"?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

No one hates them, we give them the good news. If they accept fine if not we move on. 
No fuss no muss no hate.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Nothing anyone could have said would have made you think any different.:kiss:
> 
> I thought, and I could be wrong, that the OP was asking a question, and seeking an answer from "christians"?


I don't think the question was limited to a certain group.
You don't have to be a christian to have an opinion of them.

Might go back and look at the first question again.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

If someone lacks faith that God exists, and requests proof...what can you give that would satisfy?? It's like a blind man lacking faith that the sky exists, despite all the sighted people who can see it. You can try to describe the color of a beautiful mid winter sky devoid of clouds in its brilliant blue, but the blind man has no point of reference for any of that. So, you can try to describe the breathtaking sight of myriad stars twinkling against a background of velvet black, but again, with no frame of reference, the words mean nothing to a blind man, and even the word velvet, being a tactile word, can give a very wrong impression to one who lacks the ability to see. So it is with one who lacks faith wanting to have proof of God's existence. Faith precedes the miracle. 
I don't mean this as an insult to anyone and I certainly hope nobody takes it as one. Its just the way I see it. (pardon the pun!)


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> No one hates them, we give them the good news. If they accept fine if not we move on.
> No fuss no muss no hate.


No laws that attempt to force them to act like Christians?

Kewl; we have no argument then.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Nothing anyone could have said would have made you think any different.:kiss:
> 
> I thought, and I could be wrong, that the OP was asking a question, and seeking an answer from "christians"?


Maybe he was seeking an answer from *anybody* who might know the answer. Sometimes the best person to figure out why people do things is somebody outside that group.:buds:


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

laura zone 5 said:


> you are totally right.
> You cannot 'follow laws' for the sake of salvation. Not the ot or nt.
> 
> If we are going by "the law", unless i am mistaken, there are more than "10".
> ...


excellent! Post of the month!!  :kiss:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Rakkasan said:


> Why are "modern" christians so judgemental.
> 
> It is an honest question, and it deserves an honest answer.
> 
> ...





pancho said:


> I don't think the question was limited to a certain group.
> You don't have to be a christian to have an opinion of them.
> 
> Might go back and look at the first question again.


See my highlighted and underlined marks.
That's why I thought the OP was asking 'christians' to answer the question....
I may have read it WAAAAAAAAAAAAY wrong and '*I* thought' he was saying "we and our" implying (after the statement in bold was made) that HE was a christian and was asking other chrisitans for answers......

I could never begin to go to a thread titled "Why are pro-choice women so _____" and give an answer.
I am not a pro-choice women, so how could I even begin to answer the question, when it's clearly direct to a pro choice woman.....
OR
A question like "Why are 5'11" 250lb women so ______"
Um, not 5'11 or 250......there is nothing I could add to that thread that would hold any validity. 
Not only am I 5'6 and 120lbs, I have never been 5'11 and 250, so it's not like "I was there once, but not there now".
I hope that better explains where I was coming from!!:buds:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> See my highlighted and underlined marks.
> That's why I thought the OP was asking 'christians' to answer the question....
> I may have read it WAAAAAAAAAAAAY wrong and '*I* thought' he was saying "we and our" implying (after the statement in bold was made) that HE was a christian and was asking other chrisitans for answers......
> 
> ...


You may be right. 
Sometimes I get the idea that most post are for all people to read and comment on. I am probably mistaken. It happens quite a bit lately.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

My guess is that the post was for anyone who felt they had insight. 

I'm sure Rak will come in sooner or later to clarify, but we are dealing with a terrible tragedy here and he may not be in for a while.

Please keep him in your thoughts, he has lost a friend in an awful way, we both have.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

I read about that I think Tiempo, I am sorry for your loss.


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