# Why did hot water radiator heating go out of favor?



## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

This is just out of curiosity.

The best, most even heat I've ever enjoyed was six years ago when I lived in an apartment building heated with those old iron hot water radiators.

The thermostat was in the basement and only the maintainance man had access to it. But, oh, it was so wonderfully, consistently warm in my place.

Did that type of heating go out of use for some mechanical reason? Or was it because the newer heating systems did a better job? (Although I couldn't vouch for that, after having luxuriated in the aformentioned heat.)

stef


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## cider (Nov 13, 2004)

Good question and I await the answers.
My Dad has hot water radiators that run along the bottom of the walls in his house. Lovely warm heat and quiet.
Why are they not used as much anymore?
We have a heat pump and I hate the noisy, cold thing!


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Because of so inefficient they were.
So what took their place was Baseboard heat. Both hot water and electric. Way more efficient and way more even heat throughout the entire room.


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## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

Arabian Knight...

this is not to be argumentative, but I've experienced all kinds of heat forms...electric baseboard, forced air gas furnace, wall-mounted propane heat, electric space heaters, wood burners, fire-place inserts, pellet burning stoves, but nothing comes close to the consistent and even heat these iron steam/hot water heaters gave forth. 

I wonder if they went out of favor because people just did not like the looks of them in the modern houses?


stef


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Stef said:


> Arabian Knight...
> 
> this is not to be argumentative, but I've experienced all kinds of heat forms...electric baseboard, forced air gas furnace, wall-mounted propane heat, electric space heaters, wood burners, fire-place inserts, pellet burning stoves, but nothing comes close to the consistent and even heat these iron steam/hot water heaters gave forth.
> 
> ...


 Well for one thing they were HOT and dangerous.
I have a cousin that fell up against one and was burned very badly, and still bares the scares of it yet today.
And my family being in the plumbing and heating area, the baseboard hot water heat is the best years ago and still is in modern homes yet today even being used on This Old House because of how efficient and even heat they were and because of how easy it is to "Zone" heat many different rooms.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I very much disagree with AK this time around. 

There are 2 reasons they went out of favor.

They take up space in a room - like another piece of furniture. Baseboards use less room, and cost less with less iron in them. Cheaper, & more useable square fottage....

But the biggest reason:

Air conditioning. Easy to do with forced air unit, can't do with water-based units.

I have radiators, and I have been in houses with forced air. The cast iron radiators with a hot water furnace are the best in a cold climate, very even, quiet, and less dust system. Come in from a gold day, and sit on the radiator, or have your gloves & shoes warming on a radiator - The best!

But you can't have central air very easily. So dead duck.

--->Paul


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

arabian knight said:


> So what took their place was Baseboard heat. Both hot water and electric. Way more efficient and way more even heat throughout the entire room.


My dad would disagree. He put electric baseboard heaters in the living room & all bedrooms of our new house back in the early 60s. He eventually ripped them out because they were expensive to use & inefficient. He replaced them with 1 wood stove in the living room that heated the whole house. 

I don't know about hot water baseboard heaters, but the electric ones are a fire hazard. A piece of paper or clothing carelessly tossed down can start a house fire.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Well for one thing they were HOT and dangerous.
> I have a cousin that fell up against one and was burned very badly, and still bares the scares of it yet today.
> And my family being in the plumbing and heating area, the baseboard hot water heat is the best years ago and still is in modern homes yet today even being used on This Old House because of how efficient and even heat they were and because of how easy it is to "Zone" heat many different rooms.


You are thinking of steam heat, AK. They use the big radiators too, but boiler systems use just hot water, not actually boiling.

Radiators work well with hot water systems - and don't get that hot as to harm someone. Uncomfortable, but not harmful. You can zone heat a radiator setup just as easily as a baseboard setup - actually don't need the zone control network, just adjust the valve on each radiator if you want. Or the fancier zone if you want.

--->Paul


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I have basically been talking about Hot Water baseboard heat, compared to How Water radiators for heating a room.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

rambler said:


> ....Air conditioning. Easy to do with forced air unit, can't do with water-based units....l


BINGO! We have a winner. Cost efficient in construction when you use the same ducting for both heating and cooling.


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## C_Brice (Oct 14, 2008)

Bonnie L said:


> My dad would disagree. He put electric baseboard heaters in the living room & all bedrooms of our new house back in the early 60s. He eventually ripped them out because they were expensive to use & inefficient. He replaced them with 1 wood stove in the living room that heated the whole house.
> 
> I don't know about hot water baseboard heaters, but the electric ones are a fire hazard. A piece of paper or clothing carelessly tossed down can start a house fire.


Beg to differ on this one. Electric baseboard heat is 100% efficient and ALWAYS has been. It's also very safe today (not to be confused with the dark ages of the 60's). Woodstoves are far less safe.

It ain't cheap to use though.

CB


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

wy_white_wolf said:


> BINGO! We have a winner. Cost efficient in construction when you use the same ducting for both heating and cooling.



Yep....that's the reason. As we moved to an air conditioned society, it's cheaper to run one system that does both heat and AC. Hot water heat is a fine system, but more costly to install initially than a duct system, and definitely more costly if you install a duct in addition to it for AC.


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## dancingfatcat (Jan 1, 2008)

I too, know of two families that had small children burned badly due to this type of heating. Scary to think how hot it could get!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I only saw them in business buildings in the 50s/60s. I never thought they got too hot. BUT they were always clanking. I saw an This Old House where they explained the reason for that, but ive forgotten what it is. Seemed like it was a simple fix


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

They had the old steam radiators in our school... till I got into the sixth grade, and we got a new school.

Them sucker's would get hot. Spit on em and it'd boil off. Great for drying out wet clothes. We quickly learned to not lean against em....:stars:


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

texican said:


> They had the old steam radiators in our school... till I got into the sixth grade, and we got a new school.
> 
> Them sucker's would get hot. Spit on em and it'd boil off. Great for drying out wet clothes. We quickly learned to not lean against em....:stars:


 I think that is where a lot of people are getting confused those years ago were heated with Steam going through, and not just heated water.
Now you can still buy Stand up Radiator type heaters, There are many different types and they are sold all over the place at home improvement centers. Some are electric. but most now are oil filled. 
http://www.nextag.com/filled-heater-oil-radiator/shop-html


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Stef, I agree it is a real shame they went of use. But that doesn't mean they have to stay out of use! The coldest room in our home was our bedroom. DH was given a big old RADIATOR:banana02: He restored it, tested it, sandblasted it, and then painted it. No before shots:bash: But, hey, took a picture of it before we put the desk back over it. WHAT DID YOU SAY?:flame: That is right, we have this radiator in our bedroom and there is a desk over it.

Doesn't it get hot? Not possible to get hotter than our thermostat control allows it to. The water heater has a maximum temperature it reaches. Our wood stove heats our water and there are multiple pressure relief valves. When it is on, I can not only touch it, but I can certainly hold my hand against it for as long as I want. Excellent for warming hands:rock: The old fashioned kinds weren't as heat controlled. Well I remember those, yikes! They WERE:flame:

We are now enjoying the warmth that radiates throughout our bedroom. I love it:happy:

There is a concern about the interiors of old radiators. The water should never circulate to being used for consumption unless they are rated safe for drinking water.

Here is our radiator that is NOT hot. It :rock:s!!!


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

we have always had hot water in our system. hot water radiators are the absolute best. you have constant, even heat and you have a place to warm or dry clothes...or a cold butt, lol. i wish my chimney was fixed so i could use them now. this is the second year without having that constant even heat throughout the house and i really miss it. while forced air would be better than nothing, i really don't care for hot/cold cycle or the breeze. my long term goal is to use the existing radiator system with an outdoor boiler, even if it means i need to lower the temp from the 160 F-180 F range down to whatever. i miss my warm radiators.

they seem to be disappearing all over the country. if you have the notion to install them, you better try to salvage them any way you can. the price of steel and cast is on the rise again and fools will be junking more radiators by the score. they will be very hard to find someday.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Ooooh I love hot water radiators. I had them in several of my apartments.
And the steam ones were in the party dorm at college.. had to evacuate the dorm when someone poured soured milk all over one of them and then later on whern someone poured really skanky bong water over one...
The milk was dire! Ewwwwwww.
But the heat was awesome and I would love to have a hot water radiator system in my house.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

This thread reminded me...thanks Stef!!! I mentioned wanting more radiators and DH is now on the prowl for them:bouncy: I'd like them in each of our bedrooms (2 left) & possibly one in my home office. I have a small wood stove in there, but don't need it lit that often. Yes, locally, they are scrapped! On salvage & steel prices? We were given an old dozer that is beyond repair. DH is cutting it up for scrap. In one week, hard work & 3 trips... that scrap is worth net after expenses $2,000! He will be using his old work truck and equipment trailer. 6 tons per load- can go up to 8tons max. Since DH has a break between machinist/welding jobs, using his time to scrap that dozer beginning tomorrow.

Radiators used with Hot Water heaters properly set up, are not hot, provide great heat, and very safe! I should post a picture of ours with my desk over it- 3 months now... The clearance is only a few inches.


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## ozark mike (Apr 20, 2008)

my grandpa was a steamfitter and boiler operator, the way he explained it to me is they were coal fed and you know what direction coal went, natural gas and propane replaced it because of convenience reasons, but some unit were converted to gas, ours was oil fed...and second reason for the demise was that they had an expansion tank with a pressure valve that had to be watched just as you do a pressure cooker and a certain water level had to be maintained...they could be dangerous, the tanks not the radiators themselves...and they did get hot enough to do some damage to the human body...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The hot water, wood fired furnace in the farmhouse is safe and efficient.
The outside of the furnace is neverr too hot to lay a hand on, unlike non-boiler systems. There are two large, 2" pipes that come out the top and go to two "runs" horizonal lines. All the radiators are piped to them. The cold water return comes into the base of the furnace. Each radiator is sized to heat the room, those in the large living foom are big, those in the upper bedrooms are quite small. This whole thing runs without and pumps or electricity. 

It even had a non-electric damper. On the top of the furnace there is a "teeter-totter" looking thing. A fine chain hooked to one end goes to the air intake, at the bottom of the furnace. At the other end, a rod goes to damper (a round plate in the furnace opening where the stove pipe attaches). It is balanced. Inside the center is a thing like a thermostat in a brooder. When the water in the furnace gets hot, it closes the air intake and closes the damper, too. Since hot water rises, the furnace doesn't get hot until the water in all the pipes is hot, then the non-electric temperature control dampers down the fire.

If I've been gone for awhile, let the fire go out, it takes time to get all that water and cast iron hot. The heat is so even, I had to learn that if I wait until I notice the house cooling off, it might be too late and the fire would be burned out.

There was a pipe that went up to the bathroom, on the second floor to a 10 gal. tank. The top of the tank was vented by a small pipe into the attic. When the system was full, the water in the tank would be just about 2/3 full. Hot or cold, it didn't vary much. But it kept air out of the system and prevented any internal pressure. There is a guage on the furnace that gives temp and pressure. When the water is filled all the way to the tank, it shows on the guage. Water weight, I think, never any pressure.

I'd guess this system would be too costly today. 

Anyone buying used radiators, beware. There are plenty for sale that were left undrained, froze and have cracks where you might not see them.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

> Haypoint-
> Anyone buying used radiators, beware. There are plenty for sale that were left undrained, froze and have cracks where you might not see them.


Do you have any recommendations for evaluating a radiator? If so, this would be a good thread to post them on 

DH & I were discussing also installing an exterior wood boiler system. We figure in the warmer months, we won't want to run our wood stove. Many years ago, DH built a thermal siphon system. Those are great if you have a multi-story house. My grandfather had a 2-story farmhouse with a basement and a wood fired furnace. Loved visiting and staying with them over the whole summer break most years. They were on 90 acres, and had a wonderful ranch. 

In our case, on one level. So, can't get away from using a pump & couldn't go with a thermal siphon. The draw is about 1/3 of a light bulb, with a backup propane generator with switch-relay, we are in good shape.


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## ozark mike (Apr 20, 2008)

haypoint, I also rented a place that had the pressure system with an in line pump at the furnace...when the temp got to where the furnace would kick on, via wall thermostat, it would ignite the burner and the pump would start... the one you explained is not under pressure but is an air lock and I would think a better unit, safer anyway


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

you can have radiators pressure tested. systems that use them really don't run at a high pressure, but it is good way to check for leaks if the unit has been sitting for a while or is in unknown condition. it is fairly simple (i said simple and not easy, lol) to disassemble and rebuild one. you can also increase or decrease the size as they are made of segments that are bolted together. i have lived in a house with radiators for 40 years and i have never seen one leak.


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## Shagbarkmtcatle (Nov 1, 2004)

Stef,

We remove them (plumbing company) because, our society has changed and the most reasons they gave us is they don't like the way they look. Also, they take up room. The legits of it are, they are a very efficient way to heat because of the cast iron construction, once they have been heated, they conduct heat for a long time without using additional energy. 

Radiators can be heated by any type of fuel system, the boiler doesn't have anything to do with the radiator, it's simply the source of energy for the heat. 

If you happend to be blessed with radiators but would still like AC, don't remove the radiators to get AC, just add the AC system. YOu just have two
But it is true in new applications that it's more cost efficient (for installation)to go with a dual heating/AC system now days.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

All I know is I had a BIG one at our old house... It was 48" tall, 60" wide, and a foot deep. It heated the whole basement without getting more than warm to the touch. Just wonderful. See the thing with radiators is larger is cooler. So go big.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Am I that much older or that much more Northern than all of you? I had radiators everywhere until living in the South. Always natural gas run boilers but bet some of the old houses in Pittsburgh and Mass. they'd been converted from coal. We did not have AC any of those homes. 

I always regretted that: the best place to put it is under a window (to preserve wall space for furniture) which has to pour more heat out window than it would further away. I haven't felt the ones we had in England- pretty futuristic no boiler in the basement, it was a 2x3' unit on the wall in the laundry nook- got so hot they were dangerous, but in Pgh they sure did. 

The knocking is air in the lines. We would take the vent off the end of the radiator to let the air escape but then put it back on real quick before the steam burns ya. In my freezing third floor bedroom (ice INSIDE the windows some mornings) I'd take the vent off to get the steam up quicker. If I fell back asleep (guess Dad got up and turned up the thermostat that time of morning) I'd have a steam bath and a problem getting the vent screwed back down.

I had always thought radiant floor heating solved this problem and loved the old rural resort hotel where I stayed once which had that. Dunno how well it can cool- need to ask brother whose home has geothermal radiant floor stuff, dunno if they also have air ducts. In MD and his housemates are builders who built it in the last 15 years IIRC so I'm sure they cool the home.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I got st---eam heat, I got steam heat, and I don't need love to keep away the cold........

When the power goes out and the temperature goes down, you gotta dump the water or you got a frozen pipe situation on your hands. High maintenance, high installation costs, leaky, not automatic like forced air. 

But take your bread and the government butter, lay it on the old radiator, and you could make a pretty good toasted sandwich between noon hour and last recess. If you didn't mind the smell of hot sox and boots........


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

lorichristie said:


> We were given an old dozer that is beyond repair. DH is cutting it up for scrap. In one week, hard work & 3 trips... that scrap is worth net after expenses $2,000! .


CRAIGS LIST and EBAY the parts! Most dozers are worth WAY more than that in parts. Heck maybe even just ONE part could be worth more than that.


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## clsmith15 (Sep 24, 2006)

Most places I lived in back in NY had radiator heat and it was the best heat! Here in GA it's all forced air and the house I'm in now is electric heat pump which is very inefficient below 30 degrees. I'm thankful I have a wood stove. Although it does not heat the whole house it does heat up the living room/kitchen so there is a room to warm up in.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

Jenn said:


> I always regretted that: the best place to put it is under a window (to preserve wall space for furniture) which has to pour more heat out window than it would further away.



i think the idea is to warm any cool draft that comes from the window. even if the window is airtight, the cold window itself cools the air it touches and the cold air drops straight to the floor. all of the radiators in my home are placed under windows and there is one beside the stairs that lead to the second floor that helps to warm the cool air that falls from the second floor.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Loud.
Leaks.
Maintenance.

I had a house with this.
I would rather not.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
Save 30% off Pastured Pork with free processing: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop


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## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

lorichristie said:


> Stef, I agree it is a real shame they went of use. But that doesn't mean they have to stay out of use! The coldest room in our home was our bedroom. DH was given a big old RADIATOR:banana02: He restored it, tested it, sandblasted it, and then painted it. No before shots:bash: But, hey, took a picture of it before we put the desk back over it. WHAT DID YOU SAY?:flame: That is right, we have this radiator in our bedroom and there is a desk over it.
> 
> Doesn't it get hot? Not possible to get hotter than our thermostat control allows it to. The water heater has a maximum temperature it reaches. Our wood stove heats our water and there are multiple pressure relief valves. When it is on, I can not only touch it, but I can certainly hold my hand against it for as long as I want. Excellent for warming hands:rock: The old fashioned kinds weren't as heat controlled. Well I remember those, yikes! They WERE:flame:
> 
> ...


I can't tell you how good that picture looks to me!

Thanks for posting.

*(o:*

stef


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

It hasn't gone out of favor....

here are my babies that I am working on:


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## rivenoak (Sep 29, 2009)

Joseph's radiator picture has at least two of the kinds we had in the house I grew up in. It was built in the 1920s, in the suburbs of Detroit.

They got warm, but not hot enough to burn. I used to lay clothes on them in the winter so they'd be warm to put on in the a.m.

The house had no A/C, but we rarely would've needed it, anyhow.

I adored radiator heat!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Steam heat can bang and clank, but hot water is silent. Steam heat is under pressure and would leak about as often as your pressurized household hot water. Hot water heat has no pressure beyond the weight of the water and rarely leak.
Some systems have a pump, some don't. That's the only upkeep I can think of. Oh, you also have to be sure the system is full of water.


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## mdharris68 (Sep 28, 2006)

Stef said:


> This is just out of curiosity.
> 
> The best, most even heat I've ever enjoyed was six years ago when I lived in an apartment building heated with those old iron hot water radiators.
> 
> ...


Stef, they are so comfortable because they have a large surface area and they radiate heat very well while retaining the heat long after the fuel stops heating the water/steam. Steam heat is similar but with out the proper maintenance they are noisy and expensive to have. I would argue that hot water heat is possibly the most cost efficient way to heat a house. Although I don't have it, I am waiting to recycle some good used radiators after we remove them from some house that wants to ditch the hot water heat and replace it with forced air. Years ago when I started I removed a lot of them with a sledgehammer and back brace. If I only would have been planning......


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