# Can a hand pump co-exist with a shallow jet pump?



## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

We are in the process of finishing our off-grid cabin. We have a shed that houses our battery bank and charge controller and in the near future I was hoping to install a shallow water jet pump connected to a 1 1/4" well. The water table is at 17' and I was going to sink the well to 20' or so. I was also hoping to put in a "T" joint and hook a hand pump up outside of the shed. I tried searching and couldn't find much on the topic... but can a pump that is "T"ed into a 1 1/4" well coexist with a shallow jet pump? The T would be beneath the freeze zone.

Thanks!

*Update: this is a drive point, so no well casing. Post #6 has more info.*


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

most likely in theory yes, but I think in practice, it would not work well, 

is the unit in a casing? or is it just a driven 1 1/4" pipe driven in to the ground?
if there is any room I would just put another pipe down the side of the casing if there is room, 
if not I would think driving/drilling another pipe would be the easiest, and setting up a hand pump on it, 


found this the other day and loOKed interesting on shallow wells, it looked easy and cheap and quick,
http://www.drillyourownwell.com/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

was thinking about this a little more, and my first concern was that if any wear in the pitcher pump or vice versa I would think one could pull air in from the other pump (more on the pitcher pump, than the jet), but any way,
if one would put a good valve in the line going to EACH of the two pumps so the pump not being used could be shut off 100% from the other it may work ok,


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Heck if its that shallow then sink a second pipe rather than cobble something up.

Don't know where your at, but here in Mich those shallow wells have been out lawed of years and years.

I would be VERY concerned about the water quality at that shallow depth.
Please have the water tested if you do in fact Only go that deep.!!!!


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I didn't look at the details on the drill your own well site but if it doesn't include sealing the well with expanding bentonite it presents a very real danger of opening the aquifer to contamination.

Jetting the well pipe opens a hole larger than the pipe and if that isn't sealed with clay water percolating from the surface where it picks up bacteria and nitrates and all kinds of other nasty stuff can end up in the aquifer.

When they drilled my well they pumped a slurry of clay into the hole as they drilled. That creates a seal that prevents water from following the pipe down into the aquifer.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have been told that dropping a secondary pipe down the casing, for a hand pump works great.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Sorry, I should have been clearer in my first post. This is a 1 1/4" shallow well drive point that will be hooked up to additional sections of 1 1/4" galvanized pipe -- no casing. It looks just like this... http://www.lehmans.com/store/Water___Water_Pumps___Pump_Rods__Pipes__and_Tools___Drill_a_Shallow_Water_Well___H426355?Args=

A couple hundred of feet away on our land is a small hunting cabin built by the previous owner that uses an identical well. I tested the water with multiple kits and the water checks out just fine. The water table there is 17ft. A nearby neighbor hit water at 20 feet and uses the same kind of well. He was up to code roughly 10 years ago. 

I was just going to use a sledgehammer and drive this down into the ground and put a concrete cap around the top of the pipe where it comes out of the ground. I think I don't have a grasp on how the electric pump will prime and how a hand pump would co-exist if all that is keeping prime in the handpump is a leather seal. E.g. could the electric pump blow out the leather seal in the handpump by creating too much suction? I have seen flow check valves but didn't know if those were the correct pieces to use.

Thanks!


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

You can hook up both pumps as long as you put a manual valve between each pump and the check valve. Only open the one you want to use each time.

It's easier to use a fence post driver to pound the well. Be sure to use "drive couplers" instead of the weaker ones. Use teflon paste and fill the threads full. Then tighten the heck out of them. Stop every foot and turn the pipe clockwise to keep the joints tight.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Ahh, good point on the drive couplings! I ordered a few from Lehman's but not enough. I am struggling to find them at Menards. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Any recommendations on big box stores that should carry the drive couplings?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

You'll have better luck finding them at farm/ranch supply stores like TSC, Murdock's, Shipton's, etc.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Menards, Home Depot, Fleet Farm all carry drive couplings here in MN.

I wonder if it might help in driving the well if a person were to grind the edges of the couplers so they are tapered.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Good to know. I will take my drive couplings from Lehman's into Menard's or Hope Depot and see if I can match them. Thank you for the tips.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

fishhead

Sharpening the leading edge will not help with the driving. Having the starting diameter slightly Larger than the rest of the couplings will help tremendously. The friction created by the pipe lengths and couplings as they are added hinders driving. The larger diameter on the starting end enlarge the hole slightly and reduce the friction.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Wouldn't the coupler still be the same diameter even after tapering the leading edge?


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

I have had my water pump and hand pump hooked up for several years with no problem. Just use a T and a good check valve on each "pump". I used no cut off valves, just the check valves. I don't know how your 20 ft well will work in 17ft water table, you got to put some screen on the bottom of the well so I would go a little deeper. I don't know your Dirt 20ft down, but In 2 hours I washed down my Well 48ft deep, 2" pvc with 8ft of screen,. With a 5hp gas farm pump hooked to it---it will produce 28 gpm. I have a 1/2hp shallow well pump hooked to it, which runs on Solar and My hand Pump runs on Pepsi----pump a while, drink a Pepsi. Good Luck!



QUOTE=PorkChopsMmm;4686370]We are in the process of finishing our off-grid cabin. We have a shed that houses our battery bank and charge controller and in the near future I was hoping to install a shallow water jet pump connected to a 1 1/4" well. The water table is at 17' and I was going to sink the well to 20' or so. I was also hoping to put in a "T" joint and hook a hand pump up outside of the shed. I tried searching and couldn't find much on the topic... but can a pump that is "T"ed into a 1 1/4" well coexist with a shallow jet pump? The T would be beneath the freeze zone.

Thanks!

*Update: this is a drive point, so no well casing. Post #6 has more info.*[/QUOTE]


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

PD-Riverman said:


> I have had my water pump and hand pump hooked up for several years with no problem. Just use a T and a good check valve on each "pump". I used no cut off valves, just the check valves. I don't know how your 20 ft well will work in 17ft water table, you got to put some screen on the bottom of the well so I would go a little deeper. I don't know your Dirt 20ft down, but In 2 hours I washed down my Well 48ft deep, 2" pvc with 8ft of screen,. With a 5hp gas farm pump hooked to it---it will produce 28 gpm. I have a 1/2hp shallow well pump hooked to it, which runs on Solar and My hand Pump runs on Pepsi----pump a while, drink a Pepsi. Good Luck!


How did you jet the 2" casing and end up with a screen on your pipe? 

Did you jet it with the casing already attached?


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

PD-Riverman said:


> I have had my water pump and hand pump hooked up for several years with no problem. Just use a T and a good check valve on each "pump". I used no cut off valves, just the check valves. I don't know how your 20 ft well will work in 17ft water table, you got to put some screen on the bottom of the well so I would go a little deeper. I don't know your Dirt 20ft down, but In 2 hours I washed down my Well 48ft deep, 2" pvc with 8ft of screen,. With a 5hp gas farm pump hooked to it---it will produce 28 gpm. I have a 1/2hp shallow well pump hooked to it, which runs on Solar and My hand Pump runs on Pepsi----pump a while, drink a Pepsi. Good Luck!
> 
> Thanks for the reply! I suspected I needed 2 check valves... thank you for confirming. I plan on driving the 1 1/4" drive point a few feet past once we hit water. I went to Menards last night and they didn't have any 1 1/4" drive couplers, only 2", although some stores do stock my size. Looks like I will be making another trip!


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

I have put down several of these wells for myself and a couple of friends. My best well is 52ft deep, 2" with 10ft of screen, it produces 42 gpm steady with a 3hp electric Berkley pump. I have run it for 10 days straight(filling up a pond during dry weather). Incase others have other questions I will tell you how I do it. First, you Got to have a GOOD Water source to run a farm type transfer pump(about 100 gpm). What I do is test the spot----I glue up 50ft of sch 40 3/4" pvc and hook a water hose to the end, turn on the water. With a helper on a tall step ladder right beside where we are going to was down the well---the helper is holding the pvc in the bend as I push the end into the dirt, keeping it STRAIGHT as it goes into the dirt. If it washes down and don't hit "anything" Hard I pull the pipe out then I set-up for washing down the well. Keep in mind where I live I have several streams of water underground. The first stream is in the 20 some Feet deep and it is a shallow stream but will produce a decent gpm flow. the second stream is about 10ft lower and it to is shallow. I hit a 10 to 12ft stream in the 40's which is why I use 50ft of pipe. If I was going to the first stream I would just use 25ft to test with. When I am ready to wash I have pre-made 5 10ft long sch-40 3" pvc pipes with male and female threaded ends, The first piece that goes into the dirt I have just a 3" couplin glued on the end withn teeth that I cut into it with a hack saw to help cut through the clay layers. I have a 3" T with a 2" flexable hose hooked into the side of the T with a threaded disconnect so I can hook and unhook the 2" pipe as I add another 10ft section of 3". I wash down 10ft of the 3", cut off pump, unhook 2" flex pipe, unscrew T, add another 10ft of 3", reinstall T and 2", turn on pump and go down 10 more feet, keep repeating untill I get into the stream I want, Then in the top end of the T I have a threaded end cap that I unscrew, glue every how much screen I want onto a piece of 2" pvc, ease it down into the 3" then keep glueing on another piece of 2" until it bottoms out, pick it up a few inches and saw off the extra, slide on a 2" end cap over the end(very important to do this), then ease it into the well, screw the 3" end cap back in, crank the pump back up and wash the 3" back out the hole 10ft at the time. When you get the 3" out shovel in dirt around the 2" using a piece of long 3/4" pvc with a end cap to pack deep around the 2". Hook up a pump and you got it. Sounds like a Long process but My 52' well with a helper took 1 hour from the time we started washing it down till I was pumping 42gpm. Any questions, just ask. 




fishhead said:


> How did you jet the 2" casing and end up with a screen on your pipe?
> 
> Did you jet it with the casing already attached?


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

That sounds pretty easy but how do you reseal the aquifer?

I spoke with the Dept of Health here in MN (they regulate wells) and was told I could jet in a well. They said that I would be required to use a bentonite slurry to seal the well as I jetted it down.

Our well drillers also use bentonite slurry as they drill.

50' of schedule 40 pvc weighs quite a bit. Do you pull it out by hand?


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

I don't know anything about Bentonite, I just throw the washed up dirt back into the hole and pack it, throw some more in and pack it . Re-read the last few sentences in my above post to see how I get the 3" back out the dirt. I have had my well water tested by the health department. 




fishhead said:


> That sounds pretty easy but how do you reseal the aquifer?
> 
> I spoke with the Dept of Health here in MN (they regulate wells) and was told I could jet in a well. They said that I would be required to use a bentonite slurry to seal the well as I jetted it down.
> 
> ...


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

PD-Riverman said:


> I don't know anything about Bentonite, I just throw the washed up dirt back into the hole and pack it, throw some more in and pack it . Re-read the last few sentences in my above post to see how I get the 3" back out the dirt. I have had my well water tested by the health department.


Does the water pressure help lift the 3" pipe?

That's an interesting method. I may try it sometime. If I do I'll find out what the bentonite mixture is and use it for the water. When I watched the drillers do my big well at the fish farm it was the consistency of muddy water. That should work just fine for jetting.

I remember reading about some kind of tank system that would allow the sand to separate from the water so the water could be reused.


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

Yes the water pressure pushes the pipe back up----When its 10ft washed up, I take off a 10ft piece and wash up 10 more feet. Yes making a pond/pool to filter the sand out and reuse the water makes alot of difference. It takes a good 75 to 100 gpm to wash down the 3" pipe. My 48ft well I did by myself and it took around 3 to 4 hours but between 30 and 40ft I hit rocks and had to move. I moved about 100ft and washed it down in about 2 hours of the 3 to 4 hours. Keep in mind I had prep time getting things ready before I started washing it down. I have 3 wells on my property, one is 52ft and produces 42gpm as I stated above, one is 48ft and it produces 25 to 30gpm with a 5hp gas farm pump hooked to it, but after testing I hooked my 1/2hp shallow well pump and Hand pump to this one, Then I have a 28ft one that is beside where I allow my Brother-in-law to plant a garden, he gets about 8gpm out of it. We were going deeper but hit coquina and my BIL said we would try it at that depth instead of moving. 


PS Do you know how to tell you are in a water producing stream??




fishhead said:


> Does the water pressure help lift the 3" pipe?
> 
> That's an interesting method. I may try it sometime. If I do I'll find out what the bentonite mixture is and use it for the water. When I watched the drillers do my big well at the fish farm it was the consistency of muddy water. That should work just fine for jetting.
> 
> I remember reading about some kind of tank system that would allow the sand to separate from the water so the water could be reused.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

I picked up all of my materials to sink the well point -- sections of galvanized pipe, check valves, and teflon tape. I think keeping the pipe straight and level will be my biggest challenge.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

PD-Riverman said:


> I have had my water pump and hand pump hooked up for several years with no problem. Just use a T and a good check valve on each "pump". I used no cut off valves, just the check valves. I don't know how your 20 ft well will work in 17ft water table, you got to put some screen on the bottom of the well so I would go a little deeper. I don't know your Dirt 20ft down, but In 2 hours I washed down my Well 48ft deep, 2" pvc with 8ft of screen,. With a 5hp gas farm pump hooked to it---it will produce 28 gpm. I have a 1/2hp shallow well pump hooked to it, which runs on Solar and My hand Pump runs on Pepsi----pump a while, drink a Pepsi. Good Luck!


PD -- one last question. Are your check valves under ground or close in-line with the hand pump and electric pump? I am wondering if I should put the check valves near the T joint that will be underground or aboveground and near the hand pump and electric pump. Thanks!


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

Pork Chop, Had a Idea, What if you washed down a 3/4" pvc pipe then pull the pvc out and drive your well point etc in the wash out hole, this would give you a hole, plus you will be able to see how hard the dirt is Feet down and also see if there is a decent stream, plus how deep you will have to go to hit it. If you had to haul water it should not take Alot to wash it down. I would be afraid that I would drive my point etc into the dirt and not hit a Stream and Loose it---Sure can not pull it back up by hand------Just a thought.





PorkChopsMmm said:


> I picked up all of my materials to sink the well point -- sections of galvanized pipe, check valves, and teflon tape. I think keeping the pipe straight and level will be my biggest challenge.


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

Pork Chop, my check valve for the Hand punp is under ground about a foot. What I did was dig around the well pipe where I could put my T about 1 1/2 feet down----side outlet of T goes to the water pump and Where I 90 degree to come out the ground for the pump I put that check valve just aboue the 90(guess I am from the old school and Want my check valves standing up instead of laying on their side) Back to the hand pump above the check valve----At ground Level I installed another T and added a water spiket to use as a drain in the winter because my hand pump is out in the open--don't want water setting in that pipe and it freeze or have to worry about wrapping it----Just open the spiket and let it drain.





PorkChopsMmm said:


> PD -- one last question. Are your check valves under ground or close in-line with the hand pump and electric pump? I am wondering if I should put the check valves near the T joint that will be underground or aboveground and near the hand pump and electric pump. Thanks!


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

PD-Riverman,

Thanks for answering my questions.

When I drive a well I fill the pipe with water. When the sand point is in the vein the water goes down the pipe. Then I pour more water in the pipe and if it keeps disappearing I'm good to go.

PorkchopsMmm,

The check valve goes on the pipe AFTER you are done driving because it's usually brass and will break if you pound on it. The further from the pump you place it the easier your pump will prime because of the larger volume of water available to the pump.

I think jetting in a 3/4" pvc to create a hole is a good idea. That should save a ton of work. I wish I had thought of that when I drove my most recent well last December.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

I was planning on putting on the check valve after driving the well but putting it below the freeze line (42"). I wouldn't be pounding with it. My plan was to dig a 42" deep hole and drive down, putting the check valve and the other piping to raise it above ground on when I was done. If the check valve keeps water available to the hand pump, which will be outside, how can I keep it from freezing? Put in the drain as PD mentioned?


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

fishhead said:


> When I drive a well I fill the pipe with water. When the sand point is in the vein the water goes down the pipe. Then I pour more water in the pipe and if it keeps disappearing I'm good to go.


This is good advice. I was figuring I would need to lower a string with cloth on the end to know when I hit water but filling the pipe up with water sounds easier. This is all off-grid so I don't have access to enough water or equipment to use water to help dig the well. I have a 12lb sledge hammer so I don't think it will be too hard to sink. The ground is very sandy.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I would advise getting/renting a post driver instead of using a hammer. It will go straighter and be much easier and safer for you.

We have nothing but sand here for probably the first 10' and it still took a lot of effort to drive the 1 1/4" sand point.

I didn't get to try it because I found out after I was all done but supposedly the pipe will drive just as fast if you use short taps with the driver compared with trying to kill it every stroke.

One thing to consider is how hard it is to work wrenches while you are standing on your head in a hole.  I didn't think about that when I did my well and even after shoveling the pit larger for another 1/2 hour and using cheater pipes on the 24" wrenches it was still hard to get the joints tight.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

fishhead said:


> I would advise getting/renting a post driver instead of using a hammer. It will go straighter and be much easier and safer for you.


I did take this advice and rented an 80lb jack hammer with a well drive bit. Was a beast to get on top of the pipe sections but it made driving a breeze. 

To address if the well is working or not... maybe you all can comment? 
About 1/4 mile away on the property from where I am drilling, and further away from a small creek, is a 1 1/4" well point that is sunk to ~21 feet that produces great water. At a neighbors property about a half mile away there is a well point sunk to ~20 feet that also produces good water. I started sinking this well and hit a strong flow of clay-ish water around 16 feet. The water had a strong odor and was very gray in color, like clay. If the water dried it left a clay residue. I drove down a few more feet and the flow of clay-water slowed significantly. I drove down a few feet further, well point now at ~23 feet and I was able to pump up clay water again. Not having much time I only pumped the water for 5 or 10 minutes but it stayed they same color without a change in consistency. When I returned the jack hammer the guy at the counter said using the jack hammer can stir up the silt and the driven well point could be covered in clay, so that's what I would be pumping up. 

What do you guys think? Did I drive down too far and should I be worried about the clay water?


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

My new well pumped clay water for a while. That's typical. I think it took about 1/2 hour to clear up.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Great news, thank you. I bought a 3/4 HP shallow well Jet Pump. I will hook that up to see if I can get some of the silt out. I appreciate the help.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

A 1/2 hp will do just as well and is cheaper to buy and run.

If you want volume a trash pump works better. I don't know about pressure.

I had a 3/4 hp jet pump on a well. The best it would do is 10 gal/min. I switched to a 1/2 hp trash pump and it put out 20 gal/min. Cheaper to run and twice the volume.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

fishhead said:


> A 1/2 hp will do just as well and is cheaper to buy and run.
> 
> If you want volume a trash pump works better. I don't know about pressure.
> 
> I had a 3/4 hp jet pump on a well. The best it would do is 10 gal/min. I switched to a 1/2 hp trash pump and it put out 20 gal/min. Cheaper to run and twice the volume.


Was the 1/2 hp trash pump cheaper to run because of electricity? Or purchase price? I bought a near new 3/4 HP shallow well jet pump with 5 gallon pressure tank for $75 off of CraigsList. I am hoping that this in the long term can give us a pressurized water system to our cabin... well... most likely with a bigger pressure tank. 5 gallon is fine for now.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

The trash pump was another $10-$20 to buy but cheaper to run. I don't know if it would work for your application. I just used it to fill and empty ponds so I wanted max volume.

I think you got a good deal on your pump.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Update: I was able to hook up my 3/4 HP shallow well pump and pump out the clay water. I got a steady stream of good clear water but now there is a sulphur smell. I did some reading and it turns out I should have poured some bleach down the well when I started. It could be as simple as that or I could have hit suplhur water, which will mean I will need an aerator and other components in line before using the water. This is strange because 2 other wells in the immediate area do not produce this odor. 

What do you think, is pouring bleach in the well and agitating the water my best bet? Thanks for the help!


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

We tell customers to bleach their wells when they start getting a sulfur smell. It comes from iron bacteria.

Is the pump hooked up to the house plumbing? If so you will have to bleach the plumbing at the same time.

Be sure to follow the directions closely to get the maximum benefit. I don't have a link handy but it should be available online.


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