# How do you avoid Listeria when making chevre?



## Narnia75 (May 16, 2015)

I just made chevre for the first time and it turned out quite well! A friend wants me to make some for him, but I am so nervous that something might go wrong....I began to read all the horror stories so I am rather nervous!


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

That question is a bit complicated for a beginner or home cheesemaker.

Basically, you need everything to be cleaned/sanitized properly, work with clean milk, and follow recipes exactly (or have the equipment to ensure accuracy of pH, humidity, etc.)

I would recommend starting by researching proper cleaning protocols for cheesemaking supplies.

My favorite book is American Farmstead Cheese - it's scientific yet very readable. http://www.chelseagreen.com/americanfarmsteadcheese


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Since cows can carry it into the milk, milk house sanitation and cheese plant sanitation always a good idea, to be more sure, get the cow tested, or just take your chances as many do.


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## Narnia75 (May 16, 2015)

We did have our goat tested for everything and she is healthy.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Curious - how do you test your cows for listeria? Except for at necropsy of clinically ill animal, it is not commonly done to my knowledge - I've had Listeria in my goat herd before, and it's impossible to know who is infected or not - and I've looked for tests but have been unable to find one that was relevant in healthy animals. 

It is a common fecal organism even in healthy animals - if you can find it, you could cull I suppose. But it is also found quite regularly in the environment, feed contaminant etc. If it's shed in the milk as well, obviously you could start with contaminated milk even though your equipment is clean and your animal is clinically healthy. Also, it grows well in low temperatures unlike most bacteria which is inhibited by chilling. 

Of course, you could always pasteurize...


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Narnia75 said:


> We did have our goat tested for everything and she is healthy.


This is a common misunderstanding among animal owners, those who think that their animals can't get sick because they have "all their shots", or chicken owners who claim that their birds are "disease free" since they have been "tested" and are "NPIP". Learn how different disease causing organisms spread and behave and you will understand that putting things into simplistic terms is not an accurate way to look at the world. Having a problem with listeria or any other milk borne illness is like winning the lottery. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it will change your life, or someone else's. Follow Dona's advice.


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## Narnia75 (May 16, 2015)

So, would having the milk tested for it work?


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

Narnia75 said:


> So, would having the milk tested for it work?


If you're asking about listeria, then no. 

There ARE many good milk tests, but bacteria tests identifying specific bacteria or yeast is primarily used to ID mastitis. In the case of something chronic like Staph A, people would probably be advised not to drink the milk.

Listeria tends to be found in drains and equipment - it's just grabbing on to the milking equipment or growing in the drain due to poor sanitation - it's not that the COW has listeria.

Are you wanting to know what you SHOULD test the milk for before making cheese?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.thecattlesite.com/diseaseinfo/192/listeriosis/
Listeriosis Cause Listeriosis is an infectious disease caused by a bacterium, Listeria monocytogenes. It is a zoonotic disease. There is a high incidence of intestinal carriers. Encephalitis or meningoencephalitis in adult ruminants is the most frequently recognizsd form. The reservoirs of infection are the soil and the intestinal tracts of asymptomatic animals. Infected animals can shed L. monocytogenes in the feces, milk and uterine discharges. It is also found in aborted fetuses and occasionally in the nasal discharges and urine of symptomatic animals. Soil or fecal contamination results in its presence on plants and in silage. Most infections are acquired by ingestion, but Listeria can also spread by inhalation or direct contact. Venereal transmission might also be possible.

While vaccination results are suspect, I'd think about vaccination as another step towards safer raw milk. It is communicable to humans, including your children.


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## Narnia75 (May 16, 2015)

rosalind said:


> If you're asking about listeria, then no.
> 
> There ARE many good milk tests, but bacteria tests identifying specific bacteria or yeast is primarily used to ID mastitis. In the case of something chronic like Staph A, people would probably be advised not to drink the milk.
> 
> ...


No. I have been making cheese and eating with no problems. I was just curious about the subject, because someone had mentioned it on a cheesemaking website.


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## Narnia75 (May 16, 2015)

haypoint said:


> http://www.thecattlesite.com/diseaseinfo/192/listeriosis/
> Listeriosis Cause Listeriosis is an infectious disease caused by a bacterium, Listeria monocytogenes. It is a zoonotic disease. There is a high incidence of intestinal carriers. Encephalitis or meningoencephalitis in adult ruminants is the most frequently recognizsd form. The reservoirs of infection are the soil and the intestinal tracts of asymptomatic animals. Infected animals can shed L. monocytogenes in the feces, milk and uterine discharges. It is also found in aborted fetuses and occasionally in the nasal discharges and urine of symptomatic animals. Soil or fecal contamination results in its presence on plants and in silage. Most infections are acquired by ingestion, but Listeria can also spread by inhalation or direct contact. Venereal transmission might also be possible.
> 
> While vaccination results are suspect, I'd think about vaccination as another step towards safer raw milk. It is communicable to humans, including your children.


Are you saying that there is a vaccination for Listeria?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Narnia75 said:


> Are you saying that there is a vaccination for Listeria?


read the link.please.

*Effective DNA Vaccination Against Listeriosis by Prime ...*

www.jimmunol.org/content/163/8/4510.full Journal of Immunology

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by J Fensterle - &#8206;1999 - &#8206;Cited by 72 - &#8206;Related articles
Oct 15, 1999 - _*Vaccination*_ with either plasmid induced protective immunity against _*listerial*_ challenge, and coinjection of CpG ODN improved _*vaccine*_ efficacy ...

*Adenovirus-based vaccine against Listeria monocytogenes ...*

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/... https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl# 

Similar


National Center for Biotechnology Information

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by S Jensen - &#8206;2013 - &#8206;Cited by 4 - &#8206;Related articles
Sep 16, 2013 - Adenovirus-based _*vaccine*_ against _*Listeria*_ monocytogenes: extending the concept of invariant chain linkage. Jensen S(1), Steffensen MA, ...


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I don't think either of those vaccines types are available for use yet at all. It sounds like they may work for protecting against infection, and thus reduce clinical signs... and also therefore shedding, which is where it's value will be for human health as well as control within a herd. It will be useful if it does in fact work that way in livestock species, is affordable, is easy to do, and effective/safe.

Bacterin vaccines are supposedly available, but not used because they're not very effective at all. 

Live-attenuated are used in other countries with some efficacy at reducing clinical signs, but I'm not sure how they reduce infection and therefore shedding.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pasteurization kills listeria without harming the nutritional qualities. If you oppose pasteurization, you could just let one of your children eat some of your homemade cheese and if they don't get sick, then let the rest of the family eat it. Life's full of compromises.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you are taking care of your goats and they are at risk of listeria, then you already have listeria coursing in and around through you. Certain aspects of farming will expose you to almost all of the pathogens that your animals can get, or else you are not doing it right. You are wise to not expose your weak immune system friends to all of your diseases. Pasteurization is not that difficult of a step to add to chevre, and won't affect the flavor but so much. You simply can't make good Casu Marzu with pasteurized milk however, but I never share any of that anyway, most wouldn't appreciate the full experience.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I hear a lot of claims that when you have a life long exposure to some sort of disease or bacteria, your body builds up an immunity. 
Does that work for listeria? How about campylobacter? e coli? salmonella? leptospirosis? brucellosis? tuberculosis? 
I've looked for any sort of study and found nothing. Any known reliable source that lists a study on this self-vaccination effect? I'm not interested in what grandpa and uncle Bud thought, something real would be helpful, either prove it to work or put a myth to bed.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

I knew someone working at WSU (WA state university) and she was studying exposure to ecoli and immunity and she said you're definitely healthier to be exposed to ecoli, because your body develops a healthy immunity vs. a "pure" body hit with a decent dose of ecoli may get really sick.

Like the concept of a city kid getting sick when country kids are in the same environment all the time and are healthy.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

rosalind said:


> I knew someone working at WSU (WA state university) and she was studying exposure to ecoli and immunity and she said you're definitely healthier to be exposed to ecoli, because your body develops a healthy immunity vs. a "pure" body hit with a decent dose of ecoli may get really sick.
> 
> Like the concept of a city kid getting sick when country kids are in the same environment all the time and are healthy.


Yes, thank you! I understand the concept, the belief and the lore. Just wondering if it is "wives tales" or rooted in fact? Any idea if that someone at WSU published her study and is it peer reviewed and available to read?

I know a guy that is a clean freak and his two boys have allergies. Not sure that means anything or not. Prefer to learn something real and even go beyond e coli and learn about listeria exposure self immunization, if it is real.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

I can try to contact her and see.  From a quick search online I couldn't find much specific to ecoli, but there are studies relating to allergies.

One recent one I remember is: http://www.webmd.com/asthma/news/20120307/farm-life-linked-to-fewer-allergies


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Usually it's hard to find studies on something so generally accepted. It would be like looking up a study to determine if water was wet. It plays out around us every day. Montezuma's revenge is hard on tourists, yet people from Mexico drink the water. Animals walk around all the time with tetanus in their guts, but don't get tetanus unless they get a puncture. Cows that haven't been vaccinated can carry blackleg in their guts that they pick up from the soil, but only a few calves will get sick from it, and usually in a certain set of weather conditions. We've had several cases of listeria throughout the last several decades, they seem to come in spurts, might go years without a case. These things seem to need a perfect storm of events to cause problems. Bacteria are not a threat. Proliferations of bacteria are a threat. Things like body temperature, pH, presence of minerals, proliferations of other bacteria, overall health, stress levels, as well as positive versus negative energy, position of the stars, global warming, and EM fields all have some effect on how rapidly bacteria or viruses will proliferate in a host.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Our ancestors did not have things like disinfectants other than soap, or antibiotics if they should get sick, or whatever. Do you know what they used instead? 

Cleanliness.

An ancestor of mine taught Home Economics, and the first 3 lessons were on "how to scrub a table". AFTER that they were taught how to cook!

I do not know much about listerosis and dairy animals, but since it also grows in drains and such, I would say to scrub everything and, if possible, pasteurize. 

Yes, I have drunk raw milk but I have never tried to culture raw milk. I think that culturing raw milk would make me nervous.


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