# Upcoming Food Shortage



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

It sure looks to me like this is being created as the next global crisis which will require government intervention.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> It sure looks to me like this is being created as the next global crisis which will require government intervention.


It will be fine here and most of the developed world, imho. It will be expensive for those of us who have to buy food with our own money and pay for other peoples' food. The shortages will cause starvation and unrest in parts of Africa and Asia.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yep. I don't expect the store shelves will look much better (or worse) than they do now. 
Look for the areas to be hit hardest to be 3rd world and those than do not have a lot of exports.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Well, either way Ive got lambs being born as we speak, a freshened cow, a garden and a freezer full of angus. If stores run short Im covered, if they stay stocked, all the better.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

*Coincidents?*

The largest owner of farmland in the US - Bill Gates.

The largest exporter of fertilizer - Russia.

*A List Of 16 Major Fires That Have Occurred At Key Food Industry Facilities In US Since Start Of 2022*

*War handcuffs Ukraine grain industry*

Several international organizations have voiced concerns over the crippling effect of the Ukraine war on global food security.​​The war has resulted in disruptions in food, energy and finance, affecting 1.7 billion people worldwide, Antonio Guterres, the head of the UN said, adding that as many as 36 countries count on Russia and Ukraine for more than half of their wheat imports, including some of the poorest and most vulnerable nations.​​*US Bird Flu Outbreak Is Killing Millions of Chickens and Turkeys *


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Will the US experience high food prices? Yes, absolutely.
But there won't be the long lines at the YMCA for soup and a brick of government cheese.
Anyone truly hungry will have private and public resources available, and expect snap benefit levels to increase in kind.
I would not want to be a citizen of say, the Middle East or some South African nations however.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Some folks see a sun rise and assume a conspiracy and something evil this way comes. Others see a beautiful day.

Will there be shortages? Yep, Somalians are starving already. Worsened by the war in Ukraine. Will we in the USA be affected? Of course we will. The war in Europe is roughly like having the entire US midwest off line as far as crop production. That is going to put a kink in the food chain.

Bird flu isn't something anyone is causing, it is just a natural phenomena with incredibly bad timing this go around. It has happened before and will again. It may have played a part in Kansas in 1918.

Inflation is also going to push prices up. So smarties are gardening, growing meat if they can, putting stuff by, or buying preps for winter and storing them well. That way if there is a crisis they are prepared, if not, well, lower food bills when the heat bills are bad this winter.

Same idea as having a back up generator and fuel and if applicable some firewood stored before winter. Power lines go out almost every year somewhere, and if you prep for the possibility and it doesn't happen, so much the better.

And even if you don't NEED that victory garden, the stuff sure tastes better!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

So what everyone seems to be saying is "I will be OK".

Think what energy and food costs are going to do to the majority of Americans. Think what it will do to seniors on a fixed income. Think what that could mean in terms of instability and crime. It certainly will make millions more dependent on the government for food stamps or food handouts.

And how do we know that this occurrence of bird flu is natural? I guess if one assumes Covid-19 is natural, then one would assume bird flu is naturally occurring as well.

I suggested about a month ago we should plant Brandon gardens and encourage others to do so. If enough people raised vegetables and had a few chickens, at least towns and small cities might not get hit too hard. Maybe for people already raising livestock, add an extra 1 or 2 this year. With some leadership out of DC, I think the American people would have stepped up. In fact, I think Americans would like the challenge after all the Covid trauma.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> So what everyone seems to be saying is "I will be OK".
> 
> Think what energy and food costs are going to do to the majority of Americans. Think what it will do to seniors on a fixed income. Think what that could mean in terms of instability and crime. It certainly will make millions more dependent on the government for food stamps or food handouts.


I agree with much of what you say.
However, no American will be hospitalized in an American hospital due to famine 2020.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

....
And then we have the drought out in California, which btw produces between 60 and 75% of the nation's fruit and vegetables as well as exporting a massive amount of same


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

I’m not so sure , things are out of hand , Biden can kill food Production 
Just as easy as oil production . 
All of this nonsense is man made
I’ve noticed a lot of food items missing from the stores , ant the shelves are not filled , there are box’s pulled forward to look like they are full 
I could only get chocolate or strawberry ice cream yesterday the others 6 flavors where empty and there where 5 cartons left . 
It like living in a third world country


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

great news the Racoon and possum population is through the roof , what better time to perfect that raccoon stew recipe.

time to fill the freezers


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

Remember when you decide to buy up a bunch of chickens to save you from the lack of food that the birds have to eat also. Feed prices have been steadily going up.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the competition on the bargain meat bin is getting real. 
I hit a deer in Nov and I was grateful a guy stopped and helped me drag it back across the road and load it , he was stopping cause he wanted it also 

get on that road kill early


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

When I was a kid, I got a pheasant that way. It had been shot, but not killed. It tried to fly across the road but flew right into a car. We had it for Thanksgiving.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

Hell ya , there won’t be any road kill . 
Every one will be scooping it up. 
I have large deer herds here 15 or so at a time now . 
Once the fuel vanish no one will be hunting . 
I have 500 acre farms around me and they grow there meat and milk
So they don’t need the deer they don’t hunt and are getting old . 
Lots of porcupine and rabbit around


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Wellbuilt said:


> ...... I could only get chocolate or strawberry ice cream yesterday the others 6 flavors where empty and there where 5 cartons left .
> It like living in a third world country


No ice cream. Oh, the horror!  

LOL

I can't tell for sure if you're serious or if you're being facetious and joking so I'll accept it as an intended joke since this is a homesteading forum after all - but I've been seeing similar comments online lately and the people saying them are dead serious about it. They think such a trivial first world problem as no ice cream or bags of potato chips at the stores is actually a third world problem and I'm shaking my head wondering how so many people with complaints like that can be so totally out of touch with reality.

It's people like that I worry about being truly dangerous and running amok if the SHTF. I wonder how did their head spaces get that way? What kind of damage will they do in society if they actually have something real to panic about?

.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

The observation is real , and is just the start . 
I like to keep some humor in a post
But it is a indicator of things to come 
I think this could get real bad . 
Hey if they could spit out a virus 🦠
Lock every one in there homes 
Close Business they can turn off the food supply easy .


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## ladytoysdream (Dec 13, 2008)

Don't let your guard down,
Things are not looking good. 

I think the number is 17 or 18 major fires at food industries. 
That is no coincidence. Something is terrible wrong.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

The Club of Rome predicted complete failure of the system by the mid-21st Century. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome



They have a vested interest to see that it happens...and they have the help of the UN and it's Agenda21


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> So what everyone seems to be saying is "I will be OK".
> 
> Think what energy and food costs are going to do to the majority of Americans. Think what it will do to seniors on a fixed income. Think what that could mean in terms of instability and crime. It certainly will make millions more dependent on the government for food stamps or food handouts.
> 
> ...


I don’t think anyone is downplaying the issue. It’s just that we’re generally country folk and have better food-security in our households just because it’s a natural side effect of the lifestyles we live. Food security is part of our way of life rather than something we start worrying about when there are food security problems.

I don’t doubt that this is probably the worst convergence of circumstances we’ve seen in a while, but it’s important to keep perspective that things like we’re talking about do happen all the time. Food security is a hot topic right now, so everything that affects it is getting tallied up in the discussion, accentuating the issues. Sometime, within the last few years, there probably was a drought in Eastern Europe and Western Asia that just as nearly took Ukraine and Russia out of the global food supply chain, but it probably had little more than a passing mention on the news.

For example, I keep seeing the percentage of global wheat that comes from Ukraine, with the implication being that that’s all gone this year. However, a few weeks ago, I saw a video of a Ukrainian farmer dragging a piece of Russia attack helicopter out of his field. As soon as he got it out of the way, it became apparent that he did that so that the other tractor could finish whatever it was doing to that row (I don’t know tractor farming, so I don’t know if he was planting or what). The Ukrainian and Russia agricultural output is no doubt taking a significant hit this year, but farmers are still farming. 

I’m not saying that it’s not going to get bad, but I’m not so sure it’s going to be cataclysmic. People that don’t normally garden probably aren’t going to start in time, and they should probably be gardening every year, regardless. What are you going to do?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Fig Newtons. Sold out in every store except the one where the price was $6.39

I declined to purchase.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> great news the Racoon and possum population is through the roof , what better time to perfect that raccoon stew recipe.
> 
> time to fill the freezers


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t think anyone is downplaying the issue. It’s just that we’re generally country folk and have better food-security in our households just because it’s a natural side effect of the lifestyles we live. Food security is part of our way of life rather than something we start worrying about when there are food security problems.
> 
> I don’t doubt that this is probably the worst convergence of circumstances we’ve seen in a while, but it’s important to keep perspective that things like we’re talking about do happen all the time. Food security is a hot topic right now, so everything that affects it is getting tallied up in the discussion, accentuating the issues. Sometime, within the last few years, there probably was a drought in Eastern Europe and Western Asia that just as nearly took Ukraine and Russia out of the global food supply chain, but it probably had little more than a passing mention on the news.
> 
> ...


Ukraine also has a fuel shortage plus has to ship products by land over the Polish border. In addition, the war is not over.

My concern is I don't see anyone in DC taking any steps to try to mitigate what looks like a food shortage that will affect the US. Extending the use of E15 takes some land out of food production, so the only action I have seen is negative. Couple that with using oil from the oil reserve, and we may be getting set up for a major financial and food crisis.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> Ukraine also has a fuel shortage plus has to ship products by land over the Polish border. In addition, the war is not over.
> 
> My concern is I don't see anyone in DC taking any steps to try to mitigate what looks like a food shortage that will affect the US. Extending the use of E15 takes some land out of food production, so the only action I have seen is negative. Couple that with using oil from the oil reserve, and we may be getting set up for a major financial and food crisis.


The last thing you need is DC doing anything about potential food shortages. The guys around here are just planting more acreage. I don't see nearly as many tobacco fields as is normal. High crop prices will inspire more acreage, though I don't know if the yields will be down due to stratospheric fertilizer prices.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> The last thing you need is DC doing anything about potential food shortages. The guys around here are just planting more acreage. I don't see nearly as many tobacco fields as is normal. High crop prices will inspire more acreage, though I don't know if the yields will be down due to stratospheric fertilizer prices.


I don't know what's involved in making fertilizer, but maybe some regulations could be waived to increase production. The last administration was able to address energy by waiving regulations and streamlining government approval processes. That's the kind of government support I was referring to. Getting out of the way rather than getting in the way.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It's supposed to dry out next week. I hope so. The garden needs to be tilled.

I have noticed quite a few shortages at our local stores. I don't know if there will be real shortages or if they will be limited to particular brands or varieties. I'm set up pretty well, there are several grocery stores within a 10 mile radius of my house. Most people aren't so lucky. They have few choices for grocery shopping. Those are the people who will be affected the most. 

There are several items I won't buy from the grocery store because those things taste terrible. I either grown my own or do without. I do admit I need to make more of an effort to produce food for ourselves. I've been too complacent about the food supply and I think it's time to wake up and get busy.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I think the real shortages will come in packaged processed food items. Some soups are hard to find here. The frozen dinner and desert sections are mostly bare. Pop and bake breads in the tubes are in short supply. Even the packaged pudding and desert mixes sections have large empty spots.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good thing that I don’t eat any of those items.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> great news the Racoon and possum population is through the roof , what better time to perfect that raccoon stew recipe.
> 
> time to fill the freezers



I was trying to plant peas in the garden, when I felt something warm and squishy. Caught four baby rabbits. We are raising them up for dinner. They have lasted for two weeks now so they might make it.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> It sure looks to me like this is being created as the next global crisis which will require government intervention.


The White House has been busy. They are trying to make as many disasters as they can.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> The White House has been busy. They are trying to make as many disasters as they can.


Excellent summary of The Liberal Modus Operandi.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> I agree with much of what you say.
> However, no American will be hospitalized in an American hospital due to famine 2020.


The people on food stamps are the only ones who can afford steaks.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

I can say I deliver for Meals on Wheels. Generally people have other food and the MOW are their dinners. Several folks are living on their one meal a day and are so disabled they can not get out to get more and don't have enough money to order for delivery. I also shopped for shut in Seniors - their money is not going nearly as far as it did. Most people will be able to adjust - some are already at risk.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i guess i shouldn't be reading this because every time i do i take off and stock up. what i have to do though is check what i have before i go. i wont get any more brown sugar because for some reason i have 14 bags. plenty white sug and flour. might get some more dry navy beans. i do eat a lot of beans. might need another large jug molasses. my son was in superstore yesterday morning . he said there's plenty of everything so far. tons of flour on the shelves and in the aisles. prices are very high but that's everywhere now. ~Georgia


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I thought I was the resident doom and gloomer 

Lots of competition for the crown.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't know what's involved in making fertilizer, but maybe some regulations could be waived to increase production. The last administration was able to address energy by waiving regulations and streamlining government approval processes. That's the kind of government support I was referring to. Getting out of the way rather than getting in the way.


One stroke of the pen, and you could divert the largest portion of fertilizer consumption into actual food production instead of being flushed into the streams. (I am addressing yards)


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> One stroke of the pen, and you could divert the largest portion of fertilizer consumption into actual food production instead of being flushed into the streams. (I am addressing yards)


What would that pen be writing? Banning people from fertilizing their lawns?

I don’t fertilize my lawn, so that wouldn’t affect me, but that’s not what I see as the proper function of my government.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> Ukraine also has a fuel shortage plus has to ship products by land over the Polish border. In addition, the war is not over.
> 
> My concern is I don't see anyone in DC taking any steps to try to mitigate what looks like a food shortage that will affect the US. Extending the use of E15 takes some land out of food production, so the only action I have seen is negative. Couple that with using oil from the oil reserve, and we may be getting set up for a major financial and food crisis.


I get the sentiment, but we should count every instance where our government doesn’t seem likes it’s “doing enough” as a blessing. Anything the US government does to step in in circumstances like this are guaranteed to make things worse for a majority of us, and, if it benefits anyone at all, it will be some tiny interest group in another country somewhere. They’ll write a bill that adds a billion dollars worth of inflation to our domestic economy, spend one million on a new soup kitchen in east St. Louis, and spend the other 999 million on a study of the transgender penguin population of the Mumbai Zoo.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Paumon said:


> No ice cream. Oh, the horror!
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...


From who did the following originate?

tough men make good times,
good times make weak men,
weak men make tough times,
tough times make tough men.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I get the sentiment, but we should count every instance where our government doesn’t seem likes it’s “doing enough” as a blessing. Anything the US government does to step in in circumstances like this are guaranteed to make things worse for a majority of us, and, if it benefits anyone at all, it will be some tiny interest group in another country somewhere. They’ll write a bill that adds a billion dollars worth of inflation to our domestic economy, spend one million on a new soup kitchen in east St. Louis, and spend the other 999 million on a study of the transgender penguin population of the Mumbai Zoo.


so true


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I just did the weekly shop. Nothing is missing from the shelves. Not even toilet paper. 95 percent of the store is processed foods. Most we could live without.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

CC Pereira said:


> who


Whom. From whom...


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

HDRider said:


> Whom. From whom...


Yes HDRider, from whom.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What would that pen be writing? Banning people from fertilizing their lawns?
> 
> I don’t fertilize my lawn, so that wouldn’t affect me, but that’s not what I see as the proper function of my government.


I am spreading urine on our lawns. Lots of article about it. Normally I don't fertilize grass but have a couple weak areas where I am trying it.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

oldasrocks said:


> I am spreading urine on our lawns. Lots of article about it. Normally I don't fertilize grass but have a couple weak areas where I am trying it.


Too much will kill it and smell bad too!


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

CC Pereira said:


> From who did the following originate?
> 
> tough men make good times,
> good times make weak men,
> ...


The quote is from a post-apocalyptic novel titled _"Those Who Remain"_, written by author G. Michael Hopf. 

It's his final chapter of a 7 part post-apocalyptic series called "_The New World"_. 









Those Who Remain (The New World #7)


THE FINAL CHAPTER IN THE VAN ZANDT SAGA IS HERE The war between the Republic of Cascadia and the rogue nation Western Canada is raging. ...



www.goodreads.com





.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What would that pen be writing? Banning people from fertilizing their lawns?
> 
> I don’t fertilize my lawn, so that wouldn’t affect me, but that’s not what I see as the proper function of my government.


I don't think people would be banned from fertilizing their lawns but they might be rationed or have to come up with more natural and old fashioned ways to produce their own lawn fertilizer instead of being able to buy it from a manufacturer.

In national emergency times fertilizer resources that would ordinarily be manufactured for use for lawns could be appropriated by governments and redirected strictly for the manufacturing and distribution of fertilizers to be used by farmers producing food on a large-scale for the nation. It wouldn't be the first time that resources have had to be appropriated during emergency times.

Think about what happened in WW2. In some countries the people were told to turn their lawns into victory gardens to supplement their food rations. It wasn't the fertilizer that was banned, it was lawns that were banned.

.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What would that pen be writing? Banning people from fertilizing their lawns?
> 
> I don’t fertilize my lawn, so that wouldn’t affect me, but that’s not what I see as the proper function of my government.


Not banning. Taxing. Put a tax on fertilizer. Farmers are tax exempt. Boom.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I just did the weekly shop. Nothing is missing from the shelves. Not even toilet paper. 95 percent of the store is processed foods. Most we could live without.


What store is this? I know a lot of people that would like to go. This has not been the case for millions of Americans that don't live in such a bountiful utopia, for some time now.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Paumon said:


> I don't think people would be banned from fertilizing their lawns but they might be rationed or have to come up with more natural and old fashioned ways to produce their own lawn fertilizer instead of being able to buy it from a manufacturer.
> 
> In national emergency times fertilizer resources that would ordinarily be manufactured for use for lawns could be appropriated by governments and redirected strictly for the manufacturing and distribution of fertilizers to be used by farmers producing food on a large-scale for the nation. It wouldn't be the first time that resources have had to be appropriated during emergency times.
> 
> ...


Anyone that has studied economics and isn't a loon knows that rationing and price controls just make for shortages and rarity of resources. You know not of what you speak.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> What store is this? I know a lot of people that would like to go. This has not been the case for millions of Americans that don't live in such a bountiful utopia, for some time now.


I live in the boonies of Wyoming. Broulims is the store. I am sure they would love the business though you can get most things online as well.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> Not banning. Taxing. Put a tax on fertilizer. Farmers are tax exempt. Boom.


So more government intervention to solve problems that government intervention created? No thanks.

With about 90% of what you say, I’d be proud voting for you. This boneheaded move would get an angry call to your office.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The crazy fertilizer prices in the US are directly correlated with natural gas and diesel prices. Natural gas is the main ingredient in nitrogen fertilizer and diesel prices affect their transportation and the mining of P and K. 

This is all intentional on our end. Whoever is pulling Putin's strings may be playing on a different set of music, but the end of the song looks like the same.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Paumon said:


> I don't think people would be banned from fertilizing their lawns but they might be rationed or have to come up with more natural and old fashioned ways to produce their own lawn fertilizer instead of being able to buy it from a manufacturer.
> 
> In national emergency times fertilizer resources that would ordinarily be manufactured for use for lawns could be appropriated by governments and redirected strictly for the manufacturing and distribution of fertilizers to be used by farmers producing food on a large-scale for the nation. It wouldn't be the first time that resources have had to be appropriated during emergency times.
> 
> ...


Special powers granted in times of “national emergency” quickly become powers seized. I reject your definition of “national emergency” and refuse to abdicate my rights for it. A quarter-million invaders per month streaming across your border is a national emergency. A fertilizer shortage is not.

You say that we should have to come up with other means to source it than “being able to buy it from the manufacturer”. If the manufacturer wants to sell it to me, and I want to buy it from them, and the government decides who can buy the produce of a company they don’t own, that is socialism. I’m not a socialist. I have too much self-respect.




Paumon said:


> Think about what happened in WW2. In some countries the people were told to turn their lawns into victory gardens to supplement their food rations. It wasn't the fertilizer that was banned, it was lawns that were banned.
> 
> .


I’m not a subject to one of those countries. You are. If only you’d had someone, generations ago, willing to fight for your future Liberty, you wouldn’t cite such debasing notions fondly.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

barnbilder said:


> Not banning. Taxing. Put a tax on fertilizer. Farmers are tax exempt. Boom.


Most taxes are based on sales percentages. The guy that wants the greenest lawn ever sets the price for fertilizer. He buys the majority of it, because he is fertilizing more land than farmers are. There is a huge potential for markup. Dollar a pound fertilizer wouldn't hurt a guy that wanted the greenest lawn ever. Right now its around 40 cents a pound maybe? You could do a 100% tax all the time. Think of the debt we could pay down. Right now, if you wanted to limit consumption, you could raise the tax to maybe 125%, Mr. My lawn's better than your lawn would back up a bit, heck, if you went deep enough, he might even figure out a different way to fertilize his lawn, or invest in synthetic turf, or some xeriscaping (heavy on rock). This might put a glut on the fertilizer market, reducing our need for imported fertilizer, maybe even dropping prices a little for ag producers. 

We could be making mad tax revenue right now, but we are not. Johnny Greenlawns could be footing the bill for all kinds of stupid stuff the government wastes money on. If we taxed it enough, we could make it an undesirable practice, Most governments are leery of that, they like to run up to what the market will bear and stop before they kill the cash cow, this is one way that governments can be very ineffective, they often govern based on self interests instead of the common good. But it could be done, we could make a thing so expensive it was undesirable, through taxation. If cigarette smokers have to pay extra taxes, why shouldn't people be financially penalized for doing things that are ecologically and economically immoral for the sole purpose of projecting their vanity?


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Paumon said:


> I don't think people would be banned from fertilizing their lawns but they might be rationed or have to come up with more natural and old fashioned ways to produce their own lawn fertilizer instead of being able to buy it from a manufacturer.
> 
> In national emergency times fertilizer resources that would ordinarily be manufactured for use for lawns could be *appropriated by governments and redirected strictly for the manufacturing and distribution of fertilizers to be used by farmers producing food on a large-scale for the nation*. It wouldn't be the first time that resources have had to be appropriated during emergency times.
> 
> ...


So small family farmers would be screwed again.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Most taxes are based on sales percentages. The guy that wants the greenest lawn ever sets the price for fertilizer. He buys the majority of it, because he is fertilizing more land than farmers are. There is a huge potential for markup. Dollar a pound fertilizer wouldn't hurt a guy that wanted the greenest lawn ever. Right now its around 40 cents a pound maybe? You could do a 100% tax all the time. Think of the debt we could pay down. Right now, if you wanted to limit consumption, you could raise the tax to maybe 125%, Mr. My lawn's better than your lawn would back up a bit, heck, if you went deep enough, he might even figure out a different way to fertilize his lawn, or invest in synthetic turf, or some xeriscaping (heavy on rock). This might put a glut on the fertilizer market, reducing our need for imported fertilizer, maybe even dropping prices a little for ag producers.
> 
> We could be making mad tax revenue right now, but we are not. Johnny Greenlawns could be footing the bill for all kinds of stupid stuff the government wastes money on. If we taxed it enough, we could make it an undesirable practice, Most governments are leery of that, they like to run up to what the market will bear and stop before they kill the cash cow, this is one way that governments can be very ineffective, they often govern based on self interests instead of the common good. But it could be done, we could make a thing so expensive it was undesirable, through taxation. If cigarette smokers have to pay extra taxes, why shouldn't people be financially penalized for doing things that are ecologically and economically immoral for the sole purpose of projecting their vanity?


I don't believe that your assessment of fertilizer utilization is accurate.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Hiro said:


> I don't believe that your assessment of fertilizer utilization is accurate.











Grass takes up 2% of the land in the continental US


A study published in the journal Environmental Management found that over 40 million acres of land in the continental US has some form of lawn on it.




www.businessinsider.com




I know people that have worked in the fertilizer sales industry that would suggest otherwise.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Grass takes up 2% of the land in the continental US
> 
> 
> A study published in the journal Environmental Management found that over 40 million acres of land in the continental US has some form of lawn on it.
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree. I had no idea there was a fertilizer sales industry. There are people that raise crops and livestock that calculate how much fertilizer they need to get the yield they want vs. the cost of the fertilizer. Regardless, carry on.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> So more government intervention to solve problems that government intervention created? No thanks.
> 
> With about 90% of what you say, I’d be proud voting for you. This boneheaded move would get an angry call to your office.


Don't ever think that if I were in an elected position I would ever sign my name to it. Were I king, we wouldn't be in this manufactured crisis in the first place. I only offered a "makes as much sense as" suggestion, mainly to illustrate that as long as people can afford to worry about their yard grass, we aren't in that serious of a food or fertilizer crisis yet. It is disconcerting to not be able to find key elements of a shopping list, on every single shopping trip, and disheartening to know that farmers are going in the hole worse than ever because of a wholly manufactured crisis with easily identifiable perpetrators, and although what we are seeing and have seen is "how it starts" according to history, we are not resorting to cannibalism yet, if people can dump fertilizer on worthless yard grass.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Hiro said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. I had no idea there was a fertilizer sales industry. There are people that raise crops and livestock that calculate how much fertilizer they need to get the yield they want vs. the cost of the fertilizer. Regardless, carry on.


Of course there is a fertilizer sales industry. You may not know it, but there are stores that sell fertilizer. Some of them have the bulk bins out back, and a spreader truck, in addition to the stacks of bags in the store. More tons will leave that place a bag at a time in the back of a sedan than in the spreader truck, not even considering the amount of fertilizer retailers that only sell bags. This is because those people, unlike farmers, don't care about usage and application rates, runoff, sticker price and things like that, and they are fertilizing more acres.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

barnbilder said:


> One stroke of the pen, and you could divert the largest portion of fertilizer consumption into actual food production instead of being flushed into the streams. (I am addressing yards)


Many times resources have been diverted or rationed by the US govt. They could put an extra global warming fee on fertilizer sold for residential purposes.


----------



## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You say that we *should* have to .....


Please re-read my post and stop mis-quoting me. Do you have dyslexia or a problem with reading comprehension or what? I never said that anybody _should_ have to do a damned thing. I simply stated what has already happened in the recent past history and _could_ easily happen again.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I’m not a subject to one of those countries. You are. If only you’d had someone, generations ago, willing to fight for your future Liberty, you wouldn’t cite such debasing notions fondly.


Get off your high horse. Your country and my country's militaries were both involved and worked cooperatively with each other in both of those wars. Your own country, just like mine and others, was one of the many countries during WW1 and WW2 whose governments appropriated essential resources and supplies for the war efforts.

I don't understand what you're talking about when you mention me citing debasing notions fondly. I'm stating factually about a time in our mutual countries' histories that you weren't even there for, you weren't even a gleam in your daddy's eyes yet. Just because you disapprove of what you call debasing notions about what your own country did at that time just like everybody else did and _could_ do it again doesn't give you a basis for saying that I am speaking _fondly_ about anything. It's all in your own mind.

It happened. It could happen again whether you are _fond_ of it or not. Don't shoot the messenger just because the messenger tells you factually about what _could_ happen AGAIN. Do your due diligence and bone up on your own country's history before you go debasing other countries' histories.

Geez Louise you guys, you need to get those twists out of your respective knickers.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There will likely be enough fertilizer in this country applied to garden crops that will fail and turn into weedy jungles , this year, to fertilize enough food crops to feed a small continent.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Paumon said:


> ...Think about what happened in WW2. In some countries the people were told to turn their lawns into victory gardens to supplement their food rations. It wasn't the fertilizer that was banned, it was lawns that were banned.


The govt didn't ban anything...They _encouraged_ Victory Gardens, That's how those people in DC who are smarter than us should do things, not by making Imperial Decrees.

I've read that half the world's fertilizer comes from Russia + China...but I think they're not counting what comes out of DC,


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Of course there is a fertilizer sales industry. You may not know it, but there are stores that sell fertilizer. Some of them have the bulk bins out back, and a spreader truck, in addition to the stacks of bags in the store. More tons will leave that place a bag at a time in the back of a sedan than in the spreader truck, not even considering the amount of fertilizer retailers that only sell bags. This is because those people, unlike farmers, don't care about usage and application rates, runoff, sticker price and things like that, and they are fertilizing more acres.


Your economic short sightedness is apparent. Restricting who can purchase and use a commodity will only tighten long term supply. Also, your fertilization utilization perception is way off base. The percentage of residential use of fertilizer is minor compared with agricultural use.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Hiro said:


> The percentage of residential use of fertilizer is minor compared with agricultural use.


Would you attribute this mistaken statement to your cognitive state, or your geographic isolation? How could equal acreage with ten times the application rate end up being minor? Every farm store sells as much to homeowners as they do to farmers. Plus every home improvement store sells only to homeowners. Plus the people with money get the guy from the lawn service to spread theirs. Just because nobody fertilizes lawns in your holler except for when there is a big cousin wedding doesn't mean that the trends you see hold true for the rest of the country.









Grass takes up 2% of the land in the continental US


A study published in the journal Environmental Management found that over 40 million acres of land in the continental US has some form of lawn on it.




www.businessinsider.com









Grass Lawns are an Ecological Catastrophe – ONE Only Natural Energy







www.onlynaturalenergy.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“The US EPA states that on average, Americans buy 70 million pounds of fertilizer per year. The National Gardening Association estimates that homeowners use over 125 million pounds of pesticides to kill grubs, ants, and other insects, and herbicides to kill those pesky dandelions, per year.”









Are lawns a waste of space and resources?


The American ideal of the house with a white picket fence usually includes a nice green lawn. Now, that ideal has become a part of law in many communities; many zoning rules and homeowner codes man…




www.bard.edu


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

No one that I am aware of fertilizes their lawns around us, but I don't live even close to a suburb and our town's "subdivisions" are sort of a loose term.
Now, the subdivision our daughter used to live in however, outside of a large northern city, had an abundance of homeowners who contracted for fertilizers, pesticides, treatments to kill grubs, weeds, moles, voles, paint and tint their grass, etc.
Visiting her during the week and going outside meant you were inundated with noxious fumes from all of the landscapers. 
Farm smells had nothing on those folks.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “The US EPA states that on average, Americans buy 70 million pounds of fertilizer per year. The National Gardening Association estimates that homeowners use over 125 million pounds of pesticides to kill grubs, ants, and other insects, and herbicides to kill those pesky dandelions, per year.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My father in law was disappointed when he visited one of his sons years ago, who lived in a nice house adjacent to a golf course. 
He was warned not to pick and eat the dandelions.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> There will likely be enough fertilizer in this country applied to garden crops that will fail and turn into weedy jungles , this year, to fertilize enough food crops to feed a small continent.


I'm guessing it will not be the type of fertilizer that commercial farmers would be using.

You will have a laser target on your forehead if you suggest people could fertilize their yard gardens with chemical fertilizers around here, as well as on a lot of nation-wide and world-wide internet forums/sites I visit.

Most people around here don't have lawns. Just a nice patch of dirt, or hardscape, or maybe a piece of plastic that resembles grass. We have been constantly yelled at by TPTB about how we're wasting water, and with the expense of water, it's just not worth it. Now, turn your eyes to the fancy folk in certain parts of L.A. or the fancy political folks in Sacramento, and they all have lush, green lawns. Because they aren't wasting water, only we are.

Same thing you ask for with fertilizer. One set of rules for them, one set of rules for everyone else. Granted, lawns may not be a hill to die on, but they can be slippery slopes, especially if you put fertilizer and water on them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

In 2018, fertilizer consumption for United States of America was *128.8 kilograms per hectare*. Though United States of America fertilizer consumption fluctuated substantially in recent years, it tended to increase through 1969 - 2018 period ending at 128.8 kilograms per hectare in 2018.






__





United States of America Fertilizer consumption, 1960-2021 - knoema.com


In 2020, fertilizer consumption for United States of America was 126.2 kilograms per hectare. Though United States of America fertilizer consumption fluctuated substantially in recent years, it tended to increase through 1971 - 2020 period ending at 126.2 kilograms per hectare in 2020...




knoema.com


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Would you attribute this mistaken statement to your cognitive state, or your geographic isolation? How could equal acreage with ten times the application rate end up being minor? Every farm store sells as much to homeowners as they do to farmers. Plus every home improvement store sells only to homeowners. Plus the people with money get the guy from the lawn service to spread theirs. Just because nobody fertilizes lawns in your holler except for when there is a big cousin wedding doesn't mean that the trends you see hold true for the rest of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One either believes in freedom and liberty or one does not. If some guy wants the greenest lawn in his neighborhood, it isn't any of your business. Wishing for the government to decide such things reeks of a desire for a planned economy. We all know where that leads or I thought we all did.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Grass lawns and golf courses are part of our current culture. Ranting about is has no effect.

Looking out one’s door into the forest or across your homestead is pleasant, but it doesn’t inform you about usage in big cities.

All fertilizer is based on the same three nutrients. Doesn’t matter if it’s on the farm or in my neighbor’s garden or on the Texas A & M football field. (A relative is the grounds keeper.)

You guys could opt to have a polite conversation where each of you contributed your bit of knowledge. Instead, snark ensued.

Go pet your critters and water the garden.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Hiro said:


> One either believes in freedom and liberty or one does not. If some guy wants the greenest lawn in his neighborhood, it isn't any of your business. Wishing for the government to decide such things reeks of a desire for a planned economy. We all know where that leads or I thought we all did.


I believe in freedom and liberty. That means if the idiot next door wants the greenest lawn in my neighbourhood and he ends up poisoning or otherwise fuming out and endangering everyone else and their property in the neighbourhood including killing off the spawning streams in the drainage system with his run-off because of his blasted lawn then I have the freedom and liberty to make his business my business and make him regret that he even thought about having a lawn.

.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Mish said:


> I'm guessing it will not be the type of fertilizer that commercial farmers would be using.
> 
> You will have a laser target on your forehead if you suggest people could fertilize their yard gardens with chemical fertilizers around here, as well as on a lot of nation-wide and world-wide internet forums/sites I visit.
> 
> ...


No, we're wasting it here in the north where a lot of the water comes from, too🤣
Water restrictions this year, can only water 3 days a week and it has to be at night.🙄
My lawn is definitely not getting watered, or fertilized.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Almost 50 years ago, when I was taking agriculture in college, I was told that there were more land in lawns than there was in farmland. I doubt that that has changed. and, yes, a LOT of people will fertilize their lawns.

Does it really matter? 

In California where I used to live, it is a shameful thing to have a green lawn during a drought, and so people quit watering their lawns until the rains came again. Social pressure will probably have the same effect if a lack of fertilizer causes hardships for US citizens.

The thing is, us small time gardeners buy our fertilizer at the same place the people who fertilize their lawns do. Their freedom to fertilize their lawns is closely tied to our freedom to fertilize our vegetable gardens. There are some things that chicken poo will not do and so, yes, I buy fertilizer from time to time. Most gardeners do


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Adding to the problem, most lawns are packed clay fill dirt with an inch of top soil with little water retention and a predisposition to nutrient runnoff. Simple fix, dump some fertilizer on it, once a month for a nice green lawn. I live in a world with way too many restrictions, building codes, vehicle inspections, etc. I can't buy DDT or strychnine to keep pests at bay. If we can do those things, and not address something as simple as fertilizer misuse, is their really a fertilizer, and thus food crisis?


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

barnbilder said:


> Adding to the problem, most lawns are packed clay fill dirt with an inch of top soil with little water retention and a predisposition to nutrient runnoff. Simple fix, dump some fertilizer on it, once a month for a nice green lawn. I live in a world with way too many restrictions, building codes, vehicle inspections, etc. I can't buy DDT or strychnine to keep pests at bay. If we can do those things, and not address something as simple as fertilizer misuse, is their really a fertilizer, and thus food crisis?


I have to admit, I've seen the stacks of fertilizer in the hardware store and the feed store and wondered the same thing.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“… most lawns are packed clay…”

Untrue.

Many different types of soil exist in the United States. Clay is present on ONE of the properties that I am familiar with across the country. Within a few miles, sand predominates.

Here in Central Texas, my “yard” has primarily rock. Less than a mile away, a friend has several acres of AMAZING soil.

In southern Missouri, the yard was forest and small rocks.

Sweeping statements simply don’t work.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “… most lawns are packed clay…”
> 
> Untrue.
> 
> ...


I have lived in five subdivisions with a new home. In each one the standard practice was to scape off and sell the top soil.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ok. They don’t do that anywhere that I have lived or built homes.

You validate my point that there is no uniform yard soil.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

If I follow this to its logical conclusion, we will soon be hearing the solution is to stop eating meat.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Ok. They don’t do that anywhere that I have lived or built homes.
> 
> You validate my point that there is no uniform yard soil.


This was Houston (clay), Northern Indiana (sand), West Central Illinois (clay), Raleigh (sand) and Charlotte (clay). These were all subdivision developments. Individual houses I lived in built outside of a developed subdivision did not remove the top soil other than leveling down to put the house on.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

I am glad I grew up in the NM desert, and most of our homesteading has been either where you had blow sand for soil, adobe for soil, or here in the Ozarks rocks and clay in place of soil. Faced water shortages many of those places, and in many could not afford fertilizer.

Had the prettiest, most producingest danged gardens. We learned to save every drop of water used indoors for outdoor use. Even where you could not legally put it on the lawn or garden, nobody complained if you took a small watering can out to the "planters" on the concrete driveway if you did it on the appropriate day or called city hall to ask if you could use recycled dish "rinse water." Nobody ever checked us to make sure it wasn't shower water, laundry water, bath water, etc. Even in Colorado where the courts said our rain runoff had to go to Kansas we were allowed to reroute it away from vulnerable structures. So it ran from the house and shop through the garden on its way to Kansas, Toto lol.

We composted like crazy and within a year or two had really nice soil. Here we got lucky....somebody had a garden 20 years ago. We have been composting that leftover soil and now the garden soil rivals Iowa corn country, lol.

I hope with everyone with a brain there is no food shortage. But it is wise to assume there will be one and prepare accordingly. If there is one, it isn't going to matter a whole lot who started it, who caused it, it is real or not, if it is the orange man's fault for being Putin's puppy or the guy that beat him's fault for how he is leading. Not when Mother Hubbard goes to the cupboard and the cupboard is bare.

My dad said to farm like it is all up to the farmer and pray like it is all up to God. Might be a good time to do some of that.

I'm still hunting wide mouth flats at a reasonable cost, but I finished getting the last of my regular mouths online from Wallyworld. Don't know if they still have them, but were 2.99 a box, limit 6 if anyone is hunting for them.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My soil is heavy clay, but after many years in grass my soil is GOOOD!

Grass roots and clover roots can do wonderful things to clay soil, though it does take a few years of taking care of it. I do fertilize it every few years, but mostly I leave it alone. This year I am expanding my garden a few rows, and that soil that I am digging up is great stuff.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Terri said:


> My soil is heavy clay, but after many years in grass my soil is GOOOD!
> 
> Grass roots and clover roots can do wonderful things to clay soil, though it does take a few years of taking care of it. I do fertilize it every few years, but mostly I leave it alone. This year I am expanding my garden a few rows, and that soil that I am digging up is great stuff.


My soil in Charlotte was like a red brick. It took me a couple of years to get my garden soil productive, mainly by composting along with adding and working in organic matter.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

oldasrocks said:


> I am spreading urine on our lawns. Lots of article about it. Normally I don't fertilize grass but have a couple weak areas where I am trying it.


So uh, how do you do that? Do the neighbors complain about indecent exposure?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Paumon said:


> The quote is from a post-apocalyptic novel titled _"Those Who Remain"_, written by author G. Michael Hopf.
> 
> It's his final chapter of a 7 part post-apocalyptic series called "_The New World"_.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I knew someone around here would probably know the source.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You can put this in your garage for collection purposes.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “The US EPA states that on average, Americans buy 70 million pounds of fertilizer per year. The National Gardening Association estimates that homeowners use over 125 million pounds of pesticides to kill grubs, ants, and other insects, and herbicides to kill those pesky dandelions, per year.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right and according to the usda, farmers use 800,000 TONS-- that's 10,000 x more by farmers than gardeners.

Facts sure can limit discussions, can't they?


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

Just wait until it is dark and you can scatter your urine all over the lawn. Cut out the middle step.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i dont know that OAR meant his own urine. that burns i thought and nothing smells worst then human urine. i use to make manure tea. i'd have a large water barrel and fill half full manure and fill with water and let steep then spread around. maybe that's what he meant. ~Georgia


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

newfieannie said:


> i dont know that OAR meant his own urine. that burns i thought and nothing smells worst then human urine. i use to make manure tea. i'd have a large water barrel and fill half full manure and fill with water and let steep then spread around. maybe that's what he meant. ~Georgia


Some people collect their urine and add it to their compost pile. You just don't want to add too much.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

*FBI Warns of Targeted Cyber Attacks On Food Plants After Mysterious Rash Of Fires*

The FBI's Cyber Division published a notice this past week warning about *increased cyber-attack threats on agricultural cooperatives,* which comes at a time when a curious string of fires and explosions damage major food processing plants across the country.

_"Ransomware actors may be more likely to attack agricultural cooperatives during critical planting and harvest seasons, disrupting operations, causing financial loss, and negatively impacting the food supply chain," the notice read, *adding 2021 and early 2022 *_*ransomware attacks on farming co-ops could affect the current planting season *_*"by disrupting the supply of seeds and fertilizer."*






FBI Warns of Targeted Cyber Attacks On Food Plants After Mysterious Rash Of Fires | ZeroHedge


ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




www.zerohedge.com




_


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

__





Humanure Handbook Home Page


The Humanure Handbook and the Compost Toilet Handbook are sources of information for composting sanitation systems. Human excrement, or human waste, is highly compostable and can be safely returned to the soil for agricultural purposes.



humanurehandbook.com


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I had hoped I would find some articles with links to actual research on how much fertilizer and pesticide is used on lawn grasses compared to farm crops but I didn't see any. There are many claims that grass is treated more heavily than crops.





__





When it comes to our lawns, many of us are keeping up with the Joneses


The need to have a perfect lawn has to do with peer pressure, according to a recent study. But doing so isn't really good for the environment.




www.reconnectwithnature.org





But when rivers and lakes are polluted by fertilizer and pesticide run-off, it is always blamed on farmers. *ALWAYS*









Lake Erie Algae Blooms: Polluting Our Drinking Water - Alliance for the Great Lakes


Lake Erie algae blooms are an annual threat to the health and drinking water of nearly 12 million people. Here's what you can do to help.




greatlakes.org




.

When lawn treatment applications start polluting waterways and create shortages of chemicals needed by farmers, it is everybody's business.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> I had hoped I would find some articles with links to actual research on how much fertilizer and pesticide is used on lawn grasses compared to farm crops but I didn't see any. There are many claims that grass is treated more heavily than crops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I tried to find something too.

The best I found, and it was after perusing quite a few articles, was that ag uses 60% of the fertilizer in the US. I don't know where the other 40% goes.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

What many people don't realize is that commercial lawns services, schools and golf courses also fall under the guidelines of agricultural application.

clarification, the use by those entities is considered ag use. The use by the home owner or small, non registered applicators, is considered to be residential use.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Too much will kill it and smell bad too!


Yes, you have to thin it down 10 to 1 or too hot. I have a 25 gallon sprayer I converted and built a drip boom instead of spray tips. Spreading it on some test strips in a weak grass area to see results. Pulled it around the apple trees too.
A little PDZ kills the ammonia smell. I then save the granular PDZ and dry it for dry fertilizer use. (ammonia)


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> What many people don't realize is that commercial lawns services, schools and golf courses also fall under the guidelines of agricultural application.
> 
> clarification, the use by those entities is considered ag use. The use by the home owner or small, non registered applicators, is considered to be residential use.


Yep. There's a farm down the road. They used to stupidly grow food crops and livestock, but then decided to become economically successful, and became a sod farm. They roll up lawn and sell it. They put down more fertilizer than any of the other farmers around, mainly because they have a desirable commodity to exchange for cash, and so they can afford it.

A lot of the fertilizer I see going down right now on conventional farm land is not going to food production. The slow learners that still have cattle are grumbling and putting down very sparse fertilizer. The smart ones that shipped out the cows years ago are growing hay to sell to the pet worthless nag industry. They are not grumbling about fertilizer this spring, simply informing their customers of coming price increases.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

doc- said:


> Right and according to the usda, farmers use 800,000 TONS-- that's 10,000 x more by farmers than gardeners.
> 
> Facts sure can limit discussions, can't they?


And turf grass production, cultivation and maintenance is considered "farming".


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

barnbilder said:


> Just because nobody fertilizes lawns in your holler except for when there is a big cousin wedding doesn't mean that the trends you see hold true for the rest of the country.


I don't know what "big cousin weddings"(???), shindigs, hootenanies or hoedowns you have frequented... or in what hollers... but around here you are lucky to have the natural fertilizer from horses and cows shoveled from around the porch for any such activities


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

CC Pereira said:


> So uh, how do you do that? Do the neighbors complain about indecent exposure?


LOL, We have a camp toilet in the bathroom. From there it goes into a 25 gallon electric sprayer I built a cart for. Fabbed a boom with holes instead of sprayer nozzles. You need to dilute it 10 to 1 or it will burn stuff as too hot (17% nitrogen average) Just started spreading in strips to see the results. I should have some results in a couple weeks.

We both pee outside all the time. Live remote and no one can see into the property to answer your question.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Some people collect their urine and add it to their compost pile. You just don't want to add too much.


Note to above. Human urine has a lot of ammonia therefore the smell. Adding 1/4 cup of PDZ to the toilet kills the smell. PDZ soaks up the ammonia. Later dried it can be used high grade dried fertilizer as it will release it back in the soil.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

oldasrocks said:


> Note to above. Human urine has a lot of ammonia therefore the smell. Adding 1/4 cup of PDZ to the toilet kills the smell. PDZ soaks up the ammonia. Later dried it can be used high grade dried fertilizer as it will release it back in the soil.


Note that PDZ contains Ag & Cu. Both are anti-fungal & anti-bacterial, so may affect soil microbes. I don't know if the amount conatined in the product is significant or not...It also contains several other trace elements, so it may (or may not) serve as a good source of those. Chemical content for PDZ5.1BGW.


----------



## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> It sure looks to me like this is being created as the next global crisis which will require government intervention.


The puppet masters would love that


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> So what everyone seems to be saying is "I will be OK".
> 
> Think what energy and food costs are going to do to the majority of Americans. Think what it will do to seniors on a fixed income. Think what that could mean in terms of instability and crime. It certainly will make millions more dependent on the government for food stamps or food handouts.
> 
> ...


The majority of Americans won't plant a garden or keep chickens, unless someone invents an app for their smart phone that does all of the work for them. Instead, they will vote for who ever promises them the most free stuff.

If the food, energy, and fuel problem last long enough, there will be a huge die off of people. Then there will be a lot of good stuff to pick through for the rest of us. I try to look at the bright side.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

muleskinner2 said:


> The majority of Americans won't plant a garden or keep chickens, unless someone invents an app for their smart phone that does all of the work for them. Instead, they will vote for who ever promises them the most free stuff.
> 
> If the food, energy, and fuel problem last long enough, there will be a huge die off of people. Then there will be a lot of good stuff to pick through for the rest of us. I try to look at the bright side.


Maybe it is time to prune the tree of life. There is no shortage of humans. Some definitely do not need to breed.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Chief50 said:


> Maybe it is time to prune the tree of life. There is no shortage of humans. Some definitely do not need to breed.


I think that Mother Nature is working on that problem.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Chief50 said:


> Maybe it is time to prune the tree of life. There is no shortage of humans. Some definitely do not need to breed.


You bring up a good point-- To demonstrate how useless, dumb and incompetent these illegal aliens are-- most of them hike 1000s of miles on foot, risk drowning in the river, or pay 4 figure fees to coyote human trafickers to pack them in crates and carry them across the border in trucks in the desert heat when all they have to do is buy a $300 plane ticket and come here in comfort "legally" as a tourist, then fail to return home.... Is there no limit to stupidity? Do we need the skills and talents of these fools?


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Wellbuilt said:


> Lots of porcupine and rabbit around


Skinning that porcupine has got to be a "touchy" thing. Watched a couple up in Alaska skin one. They were plenty nervous...


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

ET1 SS said:


> The White House has been busy. They are trying to make as many disasters as they can.


...and it seems it is the only thing they do well...


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

oldasrocks said:


> LOL, We have a camp toilet in the bathroom. From there it goes into a 25 gallon electric sprayer I built a cart for. Fabbed a boom with holes instead of sprayer nozzles. You need to dilute it 10 to 1 or it will burn stuff as too hot (17% nitrogen average) Just started spreading in strips to see the results. I should have some results in a couple weeks.
> 
> We both pee outside all the time. Live remote and no one can see into the property to answer your question.



WRT pee, I pee around he chicken coop regularly. it seems to keep the coyotes and other predators away. The local bear has even stopped doing her yearly break-in. (yes it is alive and mostly very polite. No one has shot it yet, altough it's offspring do not tend to remain for more than a year)


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

Yup, sticky situation , I’ve shot a couple but have not tried to skin one yet .


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> It sure looks to me like this is being created as the next global crisis which will require government intervention.


The problem with government intervention is that government is almost always at odds with itself. Food security challenges are not new and precede any cultural belief in government responsibility to prevent it. This is a topic i have spent years studying and addressing. Here are a few slides from a previous brief I had given. The first is specifically intended to force the listener to logically define the problem. Only then can a solution be presented. Consider first the false notion that food security is a financial issue. Food security is a logistics reliance issue, and the “financial” aspect only applies with respect to overcoming logistical costs. Growing ones own food overcomes these logistical challenges, and negates nearly all of the financial necessity of overcoming the costs of purchasing from external logistical systems. An example of government being at odds with itself: truck (semi tractor/trailers) used to spent roughly $200 to fill a tank. Now, I have recently heard it costs roughly $600 to fill a tank. Road (asphalt) and tires (petroleum and rubber products) all cost significantly more, raising the cost to consumer reliant on the logistics networks I have presented. Victory gardens overcome these obstacles. There is so much more that can be said on this topic, but hopefully this will get people ruminating on realistic solutions. 

Consider also that victory gardens actually reduced demands on government logistics systems (the government), rather than adding to them…


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Hmmmm, now I see why I am not seeing shortages like some of you have experienced. The Ohio/Indiana border appears to be the biggest hub.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

bubba42 said:


> The problem with government intervention is that government is almost always at odds with itself. Food security challenges are not new and precede any cultural belief in government responsibility to prevent it. This is a topic i have spent years studying and addressing. Here are a few slides from a previous brief I had given. The first is specifically intended to force the listener to logically define the problem. Only then can a solution be presented. Consider first the false notion that food security is a financial issue. Food security is a logistics reliance issue, and the “financial” aspect only applies with respect to overcoming logistical costs. Growing ones own food overcomes these logistical challenges, and negates nearly all of the financial necessity of overcoming the costs of purchasing from external logistical systems. An example of government being at odds with itself: truck (semi tractor/trailers) used to spent roughly $200 to fill a tank. Now, I have recently heard it costs roughly $600 to fill a tank. Road (asphalt) and tires (petroleum and rubber products) all cost significantly more, raising the cost to consumer reliant on the logistics networks I have presented. Victory gardens overcome these obstacles. There is so much more that can be said on this topic, but hopefully this will get people ruminating on realistic solutions.
> 
> Consider also that victory gardens actually reduced demands on government logistics systems (the government), rather than adding to them…


I guess I wasn't clear in my point. Left to the free market, food shortages can be minimized. Farmers will grow the foods there is a demand for. They will raise the appropriate number of chickens, pigs, and cattle. They will produce enough wheat, soybeans, and rice.

But it looks to me that the government agenda is to make the existing food shortage worse so that they will have another opportunity to exercise unconstitutional controls over the people. Most people can no longer be controlled by fear of Covid, so our government and others, are taking actions that worsen the situation, not make it better. I could list the negative actions the government has taken, but I'm sure you already know them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Hmmmm, now I see why I am not seeing shortages like some of you have experienced. The Ohio/Indiana border appears to be the biggest hub.


We see a shortage of crackers, yellow mustard and pasta. Not the end of the world.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yellow mustard shortage???? Say it isn't so!!! Oh wait, I haven't used mustard in years. I still have a jar of stone ground brown mustard that has been in the fridge a while. Don't ask how long. It predates expiration dates on mustard.


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> Hmmmm, now I see why I am not seeing shortages like some of you have experienced. The Ohio/Indiana border appears to be the biggest hub.


That could be a significant factor.


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> I guess I wasn't clear in my point. Left to the free market, food shortages can be minimized. Farmers will grow the foods there is a demand for. They will raise the appropriate number of chickens, pigs, and cattle. They will produce enough wheat, soybeans, and rice.
> 
> But it looks to me that the government agenda is to make the existing food shortage worse so that they will have another opportunity to exercise unconstitutional controls over the people. Most people can no longer be controlled by fear of Covid, so our government and others, are taking actions that worsen the situation, not make it better. I could list the negative actions the government has taken, but I'm sure you already know them.


Agreed, and well said. None-the-less, it still behooves us to understand our reliance(s) on logistics. Ill dig out the references tomorrow, but historically, farmers didnt/couldnt specialize production until cities became big enough to creat a demand, and logistics nodes connected those cities with production centers. Prior to that, all farmers were subsistence farmers who might have had extra to barter with, assuming the next farmer didnt also have the same surplus.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

There was certainly a shortage of dog food in Tractor Supply yesterday. I almost took a picture of the bare shelves but decided against it. 
I did find a bag of dog food, just not the kind I came in there for.


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

HDRider said:


> We see a shortage of crackers, yellow mustard and pasta. Not the end of the world.


Surprising, since those store well. But… it will only get worse. Ive been tracking this for years (I did quite a bit of disaster response in the military) and continued that when I pursued my Sustainable Ag degree after the military. Im now tracking the impact this is having on the inputs necessary for specialized agriculture, and that will have a compounding effect.

Im so small scale it isnt even funny, and diesel costs alone are forcing me to reconsider what I may sell at farmers markets.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

bubba42 said:


> Surprising, since those store well. But… it will only get worse. Ive been tracking this for years (I did quite a bit of disaster response in the military) and continued that when I pursued my Sustainable Ag degree after the military. Im now tracking the impact this is having on the inputs necessary for specialized agriculture, and that will have a compounding effect.
> 
> Im so small scale it isnt even funny, and diesel costs alone are forcing me to reconsider what I may sell at farmers markets.


Here in Maine it was the first BBQ weekend this year. It was nice, 65F, there was a run on all things BBQ, hot dogs, buns, mustard, hamburger,...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Cat food in short supply here.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

Yes cat food is low here as well .


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Cat food in short supply here.


We're good, saw a mouse in the barn.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

bubba42 said:


> Surprising, since those store well. But… it will only get worse. Ive been tracking this for years (I did quite a bit of disaster response in the military) and continued that when I pursued my Sustainable Ag degree after the military. Im now tracking the impact this is having on the inputs necessary for specialized agriculture, and that will have a compounding effect.
> 
> Im so small scale it isnt even funny, and diesel costs alone are forcing me to reconsider what I may sell at farmers markets.


That they store well is precisely why they are in short supply. I go in strangers houses every day to do my job. There are some impressive hoards. I think one of the reasons the real estate market is where it's at is so people can have a second house to store their bottled water and dry goods. I walked into a basement the other day and it took longer to move the bottled water out of the way than it took to fix their issues.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

No shortage of pickled pigs' feet here.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

_This food supply demolition, according to Newman, is happening worldwide. At the same time, the controlled demolition of the U.S. dollar is also underway._​​_“So I think we’re headed into some very tough times, starvation and famine is going to be used as a weapon to get people to agree to things that they never would have agreed to before: the surrender of freedoms, the loss of national sovereignty, the granting of all these new powers to government at all levels, including at the international level,” he said. (Related: __Food crisis incoming: War in Ukraine threatening global food supplies, half a billion people at risk of _​_hunger.)_​​_more_​​


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> _This food supply demolition, according to Newman, is happening worldwide. At the same time, the controlled demolition of the U.S. dollar is also underway._​​_“So I think we’re headed into some very tough times, starvation and famine is going to be used as a weapon to get people to agree to things that they never would have agreed to before: the surrender of freedoms, the loss of national sovereignty, the granting of all these new powers to government at all levels, including at the international level,” he said. (Related: __Food crisis incoming: War in Ukraine threatening global food supplies, half a billion people at risk of _​_hunger.)_​​_more_​​


A Frontline doctor spreading lies.

From the article. "Earlier in April, an explosion occurred at Shearer’s Foods in Hermiston, Oregon. Shearer’s Foods makes different types of snacks and is one of the largest employers in the Hermiston area. While nobody died in the fire, seven workers of the building suffered injuries and were taken to a nearby hospital. There wasn’t any explanation as to why the explosion happened, but it wasn’t the first. At least 18 food processing plants have burned down in the U.S. in the last few months."

The explosion was a boiler explosion. There is an explanation. That doctor has been spreading misinformation about all kinds of stuff for months.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

I wish there was an eye roll choice with the like button.


No shortage of wild food here- the dandelions and violets are blooming in the hundreds.

The design of the universe is abundance. 

The design of "man in charge" is "be afraid!"


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Food shortages happen all the time, all over the world. They happen for reasons ranging from weather, war, and transportation. There is not a food shortage here. There is limited supplies of some items but there is still more than enough food to feed everyone. Just stop eating junk.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Cat food in short supply here.


That and dog food is why we started using Chewy


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> That and dog food is why we started using Chewy


ooooo interesting - I too tried chewy for litter - but we use cedar and their little tiny bags for $9 isn't going to work for me.
my BIL also mentioned buying cat food online now too....

How many others made that switch ?

Could this be, a reason. How come chewy can get it?

Bare shelves to encourage online shopping?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Amazon was sold out of some varieties. Might switch to Chewy.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> How come chewy can get it?





Alice In TX/MO said:


> Amazon was sold out of some varieties. Might switch to Chewy.


Chewy is cheaper than me going to Walmart for it. Crazy

I try not to let myself run short as a buffer. I did auto-ship, but adjust to fit my schedule. I have noticed that there might be a day to two delay in the original projected ship date.

Since Chewy's entire business model is based on pet food I expect having it to sell is a big focus for them.


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## ladytoysdream (Dec 13, 2008)

For cat litter, some people are using the dry horse bedding pellets. 
Last time I priced a bag, it was $ 5 something. I think it is a 50 pound bag. 
I know TSC carries it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

ladytoysdream said:


> For cat litter, some people are using the dry horse bedding pellets.
> Last time I priced a bag, it was $ 5 something. I think it is a 50 pound bag.
> I know TSC carries it.


TSC fell in line with the shrinkage. It's only 40 pounds and costs around $7 a bag here. I use it in the rabbit cages and then add it to the garden. But you wouldn't want to add used cat litter to your food garden.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> ooooo interesting - I too tried chewy for litter - but we use cedar and their little tiny bags for $9 isn't going to work for me.
> my BIL also mentioned buying cat food online now too....
> 
> How many others made that switch ?
> ...


We had shortages of dog and cat food here. I switched to my local feed store. They make very good dog and cat food right here in MO, and it's always in stock - for now. 

Right around ishtar, we noticed that there were almost no eggs in the cooler at Wally World. A few weeks later, there were plenty of eggs. 

It seems as though there are "rolling shortages" at the local stores. For a few weeks, paper products will be limited. Then, certain dairy products like cream or half/half, or butter. There were a few weeks when friends told me that chicken was scarce (we don't buy chicken at the store).

No rhyme nor reason, but when you look at what is happening with shipping, fuel prices, declining dollar, et al, it isn't hard to figure that something brown is fixin' to hit the oscillator.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> TSC fell in line with the shrinkage. It's only 40 pounds and costs around $7 a bag here. I use it in the rabbit cages and then add it to the garden. But you wouldn't want to *add used cat litter to your food garden.*




We use corn cob cat litter, and add it to our compost pile. 

For the record, cats add their droppings to food gardens all the time. They bury it, to be sure, but they are definitely leaving their calling cards. Cats do not differentiate between the soft soil in the woods from the soft soil in the garden beds.


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