# Crossbreeding and showing question



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I have crossed my Silver Fox with New Zealands (and I traded for a 75% SF, 25% giant chin buck...).

Though I love the silver fox as meat animals that I can actually handle without being attacked (like new zealands) they weren't nearly as wide in the loin as new zealands. I've begun crossing the two breeds. I have buck/doe littermates that are 50% NZW and 50% silver fox. I have a 75% litter out of a SF doe and the 50% buck. I also have a litter from the two 50% littermates. I'm really liking what I've been seeing from the cross litters as meat animals. I've been keeping pedigrees on them for recordkeeping purposes right now, they clearly state that they are crosses.

My project goals include a wider silver fox rabbit, a white silver fox furred rabbit (which already exist, but obviously will never be showable), blue New Zealands (using blue from Silver foxes), and calmer temperament New zealand whites. It's going to take a lot of culling, but it's fun to have breeding projects, IMO.  I'll also be keeping purebred silver fox lines and maybe New Zealand too. 

From what I understand, a rabbit needs only to meet the standard of the breed to be shown - and doesn't need a pedigree. However, I'm wondering if it would be wrong to show a known crossbred that conforms to the standard? I figure, a person showing a rabbit without a pedigree doesn't know it isn't a crossbred... 

Also, someone (a breeder? Or maybe on this forum?) that after several generations from an outcross, one can claim that a rabbit is a purebred again, if their pedigree is complete with 3 generations of rabbits that conform to the standard. Is this true?


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

This sounds like a very fun project, and the coolest thing is, you can always eat the mistakes, which you are probably doing anyways, lol. I hope to do something similar with a mix bunch of feral rabbits in the town I am hoping to move to...

Don't know anything about the purebreed pedigrees...


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

"From what I understand, a rabbit needs only to meet the standard of the breed to be shown - and doesn't need a pedigree"

I, myself am a purest but I hear about it ALL the time at the shows.

I first heard about it 15 or so years ago when a top breeder of Harlequins (who is now a judge) showed a Rhinelander sport as one. why I don't know. 
At the last show I had a judge go over a Cinnamon jr that I was thinking about buying and he suggested to mix some NZ to improve the body type.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I just started a controlled cross breeding program with my NZW and Cals.
There is just no new blood around here for the Cals. all of them come from the same 2 breeders.
I figure it will take me 3-4 generations of cross bred does bred to pure bred bucks, then I'll save one 7/8 buck and bring it back into my herd. Already the first generation is stronger/heathier than the continuosly line bred rabbits.
I can also do the same thing using the first cross bred doe, breeding her second litter to a pure bred NZW and continuing from there.
They are crossing the blues and blacks into the NZW whites here for diversity. I would do that too, but honestly i don't think I could ever get that back out of my line. The black rabbits might have tuffs of white and white toe nails which would be a disqualification.


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

I remember an ARBA national convention in which a cross-bred Silver Fox actually won Best of Breed! Completely legal, but once it became known, there sure were a lot of unhappy Silver Fox competitors, heheheh.

As for the pedigree, it would have to show all PUREBRED same breed rabbits on the pedigree before it could qualify as a "purebred" rabbit. The crossbred rabbit could not show on the pedigree. So, that basically means FOUR generations to produce a purebred pedigree from that one crossbred rabbit and using all purebred Silver Fox.

Pat Lamar


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

As far as the temperament goes, part of that is which animal raises them to. I have fostered NZW to the Cals to get freindlier NZW.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Ahhh, good thinking on the fostering for temperaments. I had heard that before, too, but good thing you brought it up again as I had forgotten. 

4 generations - I knew that. :ashamed: But, I am right in thinking that they simply have to be rabbits that conform to the breed standard on a 3 generation pedigree, right? 

I'm thinking I'll add in New Zealand blood so both sides of the pedigree 4 generations back have New Zealand blood - I figure that's the best way to get the traits I want. I don't think I'd be grumpy if a cross won over my rabbits - an improved, superior rabbit is an improved, superior rabbit IMO. 

All in all, I have LOTS of projects in front of me... Just means I get to have LOTS of rabbits, cull hard - and eat well.


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## jkmlad (Jun 18, 2009)

The problem with crossbreeding is that some poor sucker, somewhere down the line, who has spent good money for a rabbit, ends up producing something with that rabbit that doesn't show up anywhere on the pedigree! It is really sad when that happens to anybody, but especially sad when it happens to a kid. There was a breeder who was mixing another breed in, and winning with rabbits who had killer type, but didn't have proper Silver Fox fur, until the NSFRC changed the Standard to DQ for a flyback coat. It would have been fine if the only effect of his "experiment" was that his rabbits were now being DQd, but 5 years later, I had to explain what was going on to a young lady who had saved her money to have "new blood" shipped in from that guys home state, only to produce a bunch of babies who DQd for Flyback... even though their mother displayed a proper coat. Not a laughing matter... if you are the person who invested that money. Also not a laughing matter if you are a responsible breeder trying to improve your breed and you have to contend with others who may not divulge all the pertinent information before you invest.


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

Oh, yeah... been there, done that. I once purchased a New Zealand Red who was "purebred and pedigreed".... had all New Zealands on the pedigree, but they were whites, blacks and reds! Ouch! Not at all what I thought I was buying! I was not a happy camper!

Pat Lamar


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Is there a reason not to cross the New Zealand colors? I had planned on using my New Zealand White buck on my New Zealand Black does. If the white carries agouti I'm sure I'll get some non-standard color - but since agouti is dominant, any blacks that result do NOT carry agouti. 

I have heard in the past that you're not really supposed to cross the reds to the other colors - it messes with the color quality or something.

When I was buying my New Zealand Whites, the breeder was talking about how her NZW's borderline on having fur that is TOO dense, so I bet that will help.


With the silver fox - poor fur density and flyback coat is common - even in purebreds. I had two does with this problem - one was borderline flyback and the other IS a flyback. One has a pedigree, the other is from pedigreed lines and from a 'big name' silver fox breeder in the area, though I got her second hand from a reputable person who had been trying to get the rabbit's pedigree from said breeder - I have been in contact with the original breeder and I will hopefully receive a pedigree sometime this fall at one of the shows. 

Anywho, I would say if a doe has good density and her babies don't - I'd blame the buck before anything else - or vice versa. If breeding to a buck with very superior fur doesn't work on a doe with good fur as it is, then I would look for other reasons. Both of my poor density does have thrown kits with good/great density. I have a grandson and a daughter out of the non-pedigreed doe - both have great stand up quality. (I didn't breed these so I'm not sure what the buck's fur quality is) I am keeping a doe and maybe a buck out of the pedigreed doe with poor density - so far, her previous kits had good fur. The buck that I've used has wonderful fur. I think it's just like breeding for quality with any other trait, though I do understand the likelihood of getting the off-traits is much more likely in crossbreds. 

I plan on being very open to buyers about the lineage of any rabbits I sell, of course.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

There is so much going on when we talk about crosses. It's like mixing two decks of playing cards and trying to deal out poker hands. It's hard to predict what happens with all the variables.

When crossing to other breeds, I was told to use these priorities
1. Body Type
2. Fur
3. Color

This has served us well on our crossing experiments. Body type is first consideration since it the hardest of the three to correct later. We used short hair Satin cross to Satin Angoras to improve body type and bring the red color into our lines. This was a one time cross with a red Satin doe and we saved two does from that cross.

I would worry about the fur on NZ/Silver Fox. In our experience it takes 3 or 4 generations (about 2 years) for the fur quality to stabilize. 

When we used the Satin doe it had good fur quality, very dense, which provided a good foundation for our angora wool growth in later generations.

When you get a litter with poor fur quality from a pair of good rabbits, you might want to save the best body type and best fur for breeding. Use that kit with 50% good fur genes to breed back to a parent and you have a higher chance of getting good fur kit.

Crosses between NZ colors are risky because the Whites are usually the biggest wild card. You have no idea what genes are under those white coats. There could be recessives like silvering that could pop up generations later.

So colors are normally not crossed, but occasionally to improve body.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Maybe a commercial breed with rollback fur would be a better cross with the SF to improve type? Hmm, which breeds have roll back fur but are still known for good solid type?

I keep eyeballing NZRs to improve the type in my Thriantas. Mine are small enough and red enough that I should be able to select down to nice animals, but getting that head and well-furred ears that are so classic to the breed concerns me a little.


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