# A couple of questions!!



## keyhole (Dec 2, 2008)

I have been researching solar systems and equipment for my home for approximately the last year in hopes of going off grid. I went to a seminar today and the individual doing the seminar came over to my house afterwards to do an estimate for me. 

My house is only about 1400 sq ft. and it's just the wife and I that reside here. We don't have anything extravagant as far as energy draws. A fridge, a freezer (both energy star rated), a TV and satellite receiver, then a few times a month we wash and dry clothes. Our heat pump is propane for heat and I guess electric for AC and our cooking stove is propane. We mainly use the woodstove in the winter for heating the house.

Our average KWH usage for 8 months a year is between 500 and 525 KWH. for the other 4 months it's between 600 and 750 KWH. 

The guy quoted me a $50K price tag for his company to hook me up for going completely off grid. I have already bought 10 - 200 watt PV panels and had planned to piece meal a system together myself a little at a time.

My question is, does the price he quoted seem above board or over-the-top?

Should I just continue to put the system together myself as I go and do it myself?

For those of you that are off grid what type of appliances and equipment do you have and how many watts in total PV panels do you run?

Any in put would be grateful!!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

2 questions:

1. What are the details of the system was he quoting, ( KW size, etc ) and was it a "true" off grid system, that is, with batteries. Without that info, I can't say if 50k is good, bad, or about right.

2. Do you want to TRULY be off grid....as in "take down the power line to my house"....... and why ?


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Put together your own that you have,then run various items from that.Get some batteries,and have a super backup when grid is down,and no grid connection headaches cost and permit wise.Keep plugging in items until your practical limit is achieved.

Stay grid connected for rest. That would be cheapest. With what youve already done.

What are your rebates?


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## roachhill (Jul 8, 2009)

"professional" solar and wind power installers have a way of making everybody give up on alternative energy by giving quotes no normal Joe could afford and saying that's the way it has to be done. It's no wonder solar has been so slow to become mainstream. I like the approach of figuring out what power you actually need before pricing a system rather than just pricing for whatever amount of power you normally burn. I could only afford alittle power to start out so I looked at what power I really "needed". With no power in the cabin I found all I really missed were lights, running water, laptop and fridge. By resorting to a propane fridge for the time being everything could be powered by fewer panels then you have now making it affordable. When I can expand I'll go to a fridge designed for solar use to save on propane. We have very few days hot enough to overcome the thermal mass of my cabin and make it hot inside but the 2 days that were excessively warm last summer I ran a generator to power my little window air conditioner.
Minimal cost without suffering to terribly, seems doable to me.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

With out a list of components it is not easy to talk about that 50k tag.

For instance there is a Huge difference between a bottom of the line Trojan T105 battery set and a set of Rolls/Surrette 2-KS series.


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

keyhole said:


> I have been researching solar systems and equipment for my home for approximately the last year in hopes of going off grid. I went to a seminar today and the individual doing the seminar came over to my house afterwards to do an estimate for me.
> 
> My house is only about 1400 sq ft. and it's just the wife and I that reside here. We don't have anything extravagant as far as energy draws. A fridge, a freezer (both energy star rated), a TV and satellite receiver, then a few times a month we wash and dry clothes. Our heat pump is propane for heat and I guess electric for AC and our cooking stove is propane. We mainly use the woodstove in the winter for heating the house.
> 
> ...



As someone who paid to learn about solar and other alternative power systems. I can tell you what I learned.
The short answer to your question, "Does the price sound right or not?"......is Yes.
Sounds about what I figured to do our house. Ours is smaller but we use a little more than you.

Doing the math quickly and on average, it goes like this.
I'm going to use averages and round numbers to make it easy (For me as well as you) so bear with me.

Right now, with no changes, you need about 600 KWH a month, right?
that's 20 KWH a day or 20,000 watts.

The average panel produces power about 4 1/2 hours a day. That is for all 4 seasons and believe it or not, most latitudes.
If I can find the link for this I'll post it later.

Now, since nothing produces at 100% efficiency all the time, I like to use 4 hours to keep it realistic.

So, you need 20,000 watts a day from 4 hours of light. That = a 5,000 watt system.
Make sense so far?

The going rate for a professionally installed system as of 2 years ago was $10 a watt. 5,000 watts x $10 a watt = $50,000.

I had to sit down when I heard it too

Now I heard there was a company in CA doing it for $8 a watt. They were considered the "Walmart" of PV and they might even finance, which by the time you paid off, well you're back to $10 a watt.

There were some other interesting things relating to the capacity of the power company's transformers should you decide to remain grid-tied to avoid the cost of a battery bank, but I won't bore you with the details.


Now, for the good news.
As others have mentioned (and was drilled into me) the first and by far most important step is to cut back and conserve, more than you have been and more than you imagined.
Only AFTER that, should you consider a solar powered, off grid system.

I'm at that stage now.
This year a wood burning stove in the basement is priority one. No more electric stove, electric or propane heaters.
For the warm months, I'll get a propane range.
Next, LED lights everywhere possible.
After that, a passive solar unit on the roof for hot water, maybe an auxiliary water tank of some kind next to the wood stove.
Then comes the windmill and hopefully a micro-hydro generator.

Then maybe I can write Duke Power the Dear John letter I've been composing.................:rock:


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

The cost of propane to operate a fridge with a freezer and a cook stove will be lower per month than a payment on 50k. Figure a 1k watt system and go totally D.C. We live very comfortable on 512 watts..

Plan from the get-go with good panels (equipment) and buy as you can. Don't go in debt unless you have to. Keep your system small and simple. Less headaches in the long run.

Preserve the basic creature comforts first and the toys can come later. "Frugal" is the name of the game and being content with what you can supply yourself with what you have is key. Humble yourself from the big power hog items and find alternatives..

Just some thoughts from a tight wad..


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

In an ideal world you have 2000 watts of panels,figure 4 hours worth of good sun a day.Thats 8000 watt/hrs a day or 8 kw/hrs.Of course you wont get that after battery and inverter losses.

Times 30 days a month=320 kw/hrs a month.

Thats about half your daily use.

Hook em up to your batteries,plug in your freezer and refer and TV and computers to your inverter,whatever it will handle.

Get grid electricity for rest. Add more panels as you like until needs are met.

It will be considerably less than 50K by a long shot.

And you have the best of both,cheap grid power and nice clean user produced power that TPTB cant screw around with re:downtimes,crazy rate hikes,shortages,no income to pay electric bill,etc. 

Right now the 2 dollar a watt panels gets you 4000 watts more for 8 grand,giving you 6000 total,with batteries and even a 2,500 dollar inverter and all the rest you are coming in way under 50G if you are doing it yourself and not grid tying.

Or you can hang the panels yourself and bring in a pro to do final wiring for a grid connect,still will be waaaaay under 50 G.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> In an ideal world you have 2000 watts of panels,figure 4 hours worth of good sun a day.Thats 8000 watt/hrs a day or 8 kw/hrs.Of course you wont get that after battery and inverter losses.
> 
> Times 30 days a month=320 kw/hrs a month.


Here are the ACTUAL production figures from my system, which is* 3,150w *rated..18 x 175w Solarworld panels, grid tie with battery backup, two FM60 charge controllers, 2 GTFX2524 inverters. Cost: About $20k, self installed. 

Also keep in mind these are mounted on single axis trackers, and from what I've measured in the past, produce 20-25% MORE than a fixed mount system.

Here are the production numbers for 2010:

Solar Kw/hr......Total Kw/hr used....$$

Jan---212...........1200...............55.07

Feb--149.............1854..............121.04

Mar--168.............2092..............141.92

Apr--203..............1813..............118.72

May--295..............865................<0.26>

Jun--346...............679.................<4.20>

Jul--296................847..................22.20

Aug--366...............1132.................34.05

Sep--291................985..................37.59

Oct--407.................855...................4.03

Nov--339................757......................7.54

Dec--267.................664..................13.14

Total for year 2010: 3339 solar produced
Average per month: 278.25kw/hrs produced

Total used for 2010: 13,743
Average month: 1145kw/hrs

Total electric bills: $550.87
Average monthly bill: $45.91


NOTES:

1. This is my house, and my woodworking shop, and several farm buildings/etc. Some months I will run my dry kiln in the shop, and run the Kw/hrs up 200-300 for a month. It also depends on the amount of time I spend in the shop, several motors are 5hp on various machines, and the dust blower which runs with most machines is 3hp.

2. Also, we run stock tank heaters and chicken house heat in the winter, which tends to run the use up out of proportion to the year.

3. Being September, we switched to propane gas stove in the new kitchen, which will affect use some.

4. We will run electric AC some in the summer, mostly July/August.

5. We get paid 12 cents OVER retail for all solar production ( TVA 10 yr contract ) Retail varies around 9 cents/kw/hr, depending on quarterly fuel adjustment. Amounts in <> reflect credit amount in our favor.


In Arkansas, I would imagine you would get about the same results if my system were at your house. We are about the same latitude, and same weather conditions.

THUS to produce 600kw/hrs/month, you would need about a $40k system IF you installed it, and that really would not be enough, since you can clearly see from my figures how production drops off in the winter.....so if you want a DEPENDABLE 600kw/hrs month, TOTALLY OFF GRID, you're gonna have to over shoot by 50% or more on the system size...meaning you'll need something like a 10kw system....60-65k if YOU install it.

Kinda silly to be "off grid" if you're on grid now, since no way, no how, can you compete with the grid for price. ( Hence my question of "why" do you want to be off grid ). You CAN put a serious dent in your power bill for a lot less than 50k ( I had two months mine was less than zero in 2010 ).

MY intent went I put in my system was to shoot for about 300kw/hrs/month, figuring if worst case rolls around ( grid down and gone ), that would cover my refrigeration, some lights and the washing machine......all those things that made the 20th century better than all the previous ones, and that is what I designed my system to do. I'm real close. 

Now, I plan to add 2450 more watts, (5.6kw total) and that will max out what my two inverters (2500w x 2 )can feed back to the grid, and I figure that will put me up in the 500-550kw/hr/mo average. THAT will mean not only NO bill, but they will be paying me 50-75/mo.

I'll have about 28-29k in the whole SheBang when it's all said and done. Then I'm done with this project and time to move on to other things I've got in mind.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Good numbers TnAndy.Very helpful.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

First step is to reduce usage before spending any more on solar. Does it get hot while using? It is not a candidate for solar electric. It may be something you can use direct solar heat gain for. IE don't heat water with solar electric. Heat water with direct solar heat gain. Batch heaters are great. If you can't use direct solar heat gain, ie deep freeze or fridge, can you switch to a propane appliance? Energy star doesn't cut it for solar. There are some really super efficient electric fridges and freezers, but not cheap. Also consider wood heat for space heating and water heating.

Air conditioning is a problem since it is a real power hog. Very good insulation and fans can cut your usage dramatically. Try to figure out how to keep your house cooler with less power before switching to solar.

Solar is best for moving air, moving water, electronics, some small appliances like grain grinders, blenders etc, (not toasters or hair driers) and high efficiency lighting. You can also get a washing machine that is much more efficient than standard, but also more expensive. It is not likely to ever be as cheap as grid power.

I would probably not ever convert a grid connected home to solar. It is nice to have for backup if the grid is down, but so much more comfortable to have the grid. 

If you are going solar, there are other cost factors. I have lived where getting grid electric was going to cost me 20-30k. I can do a lot of solar for that. Here, grid cost me 1k for the electrician, pole, meter loop, and everything. I can't get much solar for that. I am planning to move and will weigh whether or not I will go completely solar or just have it for backup, depending on where I end up.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

You know as I sit here tonight in my warm home looking over TnAndy's numbers for last year it makes me think How far I have come, but how far I have got to go. I went from a 1940's house that the utilities were costing me over $500 dollars a month, to my new homestead with utilities less than $100 a month. Now I know that everyone cannot go out and build new, but as most of you have said conserve, insulate, new windows etc. This is the cheapest money you will ever spend. Even now I look at every alternative to save on my energy consumption. (This mess gets habit forming) I guess for myself as I have seen TnAndy do, it's all WORTH peace of mind if and when the grid goes down. Then whatever amount of money you have spent will be priceless. Good post Andy and congrats on a good year of production.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

For $50,000 I would think you could retrofit your home to make it extremely energy efficient, heat your water with solar, and cool/heat your home with the earth and have lots left over.


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## keyhole (Dec 2, 2008)

TnAndy said:


> 2 questions:
> 
> 1. What are the details of the system was he quoting, ( KW size, etc ) and was it a "true" off grid system, that is, with batteries. Without that info, I can't say if 50k is good, bad, or about right.
> 
> 2. Do you want to TRULY be off grid....as in "take down the power line to my house"....... and why ?


Andy the system he quoted was about 5000 watts of panels with 30 batteries. I already have 2000 watts of panels that I purchased and I have been thinking of buying 2000 watts more.

I did want to be off grid until I got the quote and read some of these replies!!:hysterical:

Now I think I may have to re-think my strategy

After reading your second post I see that you are under a different law where you live than what we have here. Once I grid tie here in Arkansas they do not have to pay me for any overage that I may produce. Sure, it's federal law that they have to let me tie into the grid but the state law here states that any overage that I produce at the end of the year goes into the power company pocket. I get absolutely nothing.

One of the things the salesman also put out in his presentation was that tracking systems have never been proven to produce any more power than a non-tracking stytem. Personally I call that BS. I have read too many things on the subject. 

So now I'll re-think my position here and may go into using a grid tie system. I'll look at doing as much as I can do myself. 

Did you do all the grid tie work yourself or have someone else do it for you?

Thanks for all the replies folks!!!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I did all the work on mine, including build the trackers.


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## Big Dreamer (Aug 6, 2010)

Is the tracker of your own design or did you find something on the net?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Would you care to post what make/brand/size those "30" batteries would be . . . ??


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Big Dreamer said:


> Is the tracker of your own design or did you find something on the net?


My own design, based on a kids teetor-totter, tipped up at a 37 degree ( my latitude ) angle. Pretty simple to make if you do any welding at all.

The next one I make is going to be a dual axis, which will be a bit trickier.


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

TnAndy, which battery are you using? Was there a trial and error process with batteries before you settled on the ones for your system?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I started with 8 L16 Deka wet cells, 400amp/hrs @6v each, 112lbs each, wired in two strings of 4, giving me an 800amp/hr @24v bank.

After about a year of having them ( keep in mind these are backup use only, I am grid tied normally ), I ran up on a the DEAL of a lifetime when an internet buddy of mine from Kansas let me know the cell phone company he worked for was selling out, and he ( the warehouse manager ) was told "get rid of everything in here, sell it for scrap prices"....and what he had for me were a bunch of Absolyte GNP II AGM's....the most PRIMO battery going, 20 year life expectancy.....price new for a set like I got is about $15,000 bucks !......so I drove to Kansas ( actually dang near Colorado ), and hauled 3 sets of them back.....9,000lbs of batteries in a 3/4 ton truck and single axle trailer. One set had been in service about 5 years ( cell companies replace them at a certain time, regardless of condition.....and they may well have never been used, as they are for backup too ), and the other two sets had been sitting in the warehouse, but never put into service.

Buddy that went with me bought the used one, I took one of the new sets, and Jim-Mi from this board took the other new set. ( he drove all the way from Michigan to get them, as he also knew a DEAL when he saw it.....ahahaaaa )

So, my current bank is a 1200amp/hr @24v set of these:










Individual 2v cells ( has 2 positive and 2 negative terminals per cell....did I mention these are the PRIMO battery of the world ? )..each cell weighs about 250lbs.....they are in metal cases of 3 cells each that stack and bolt together, which is how I handled them.....take the cases/connections apart, and lift with front loader.....then re-bolt and re-connect. Even comes with it's own lifting straps and hardware...see the green thing on top ?

The configuration in the photo is 24v....all cells wired in series, the 24v measures at the two tabs at the top left side.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Stopped over at the industrial salvage yard today ( GREAT place.....I could spend days in there ), and picked up a 16' piece of 8" schedule 40 steel pipe for my next tracker. Hauled it over to a local welding/machine shop, where I want them to line bore a 2" hole up near one end, and mount a couple 2" flange bearings on the outside of the pipe. They will also cut me a 12" piece of 2" shaft steel that will go thru the bearings and pipe. On the ends of that shaft, I will fabricate a frame of 3" square tubing in the shape of a rectangle about 1' x 4', with the 2" shaft welded to this "box" in the center of the 4' length. This will be the North/South or Up/Down pivot point, or horizon axis to change from about 22 to 53 degrees as the sun angle changes from summer to winter solstice and back again. I plan to connect a point on this "box" frame to a point on the steel pole with a DC linear actuator, probably with about an 18" stroke, that will tilt the array.

This will all make a WHOLE lot more sense when I get the pole back, take some photos as I start to build the frame for the panel mounts.


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Thanks for the response and the photo TnAndy and congrats on getting such a great deal on those Absolyte GNP II AGM's. I am curious about the experiences of those using batteries in their systems. There are a lot of opinions and information on the subject for this perishable and expensive item. Recently I read a remark on another thread by Harry Chickpea, he said . . . "Having fooled around with lead acid cells, I am convinced that everyone needs to start out with training batteries that are cheap. I've ruined a number of them, even after knowing what I should do". That remark made a lot of sense to me especially when you consider many people start out small with little or no experience and attempt over time to build up their system.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes it does make sense.
Golf car batterys are a good >starter< set for most folks . . .because of the 'lower' cost of them.

Then . .hopefully . . after learning battery do's & don'ts . .move up to the good stuff...................


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