# guardian animals



## betty modin (May 15, 2002)

Has anyone here been sucessful using a mule as a guardian for sheep? I will need a guardian-even with 4 foot high wood and woven wire fences-and had planned to get a llama to do the job-though I've been offered a burro. I've got mountain lion, bear and coyote in national forest next door...all of which have left tracks (cat), been seen on the road (bear) or heard singing....and the plan is to have them inside my stout barn at night. I'd like to have a trail riding mount because of the sheer beauty of the area and I don't have enough room for all of the above. Dogs are out for me-I tend to turn them into 4-legged children...not much good for guards sleeping in the house...or lounging by the back door! betty


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Good Luck without a good LGD, I doubt a burro or llama will cut it with bears, coyotes and worst of all Mountain Lions. If I were in your shoes I'd have at least 2 Anatolian Shepards or not raise sheep. A burro or a llama is just another prey animal for a mountain Lion or a bear.


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## Cat (Jun 19, 2004)

I can say after having 3 donkeys with my sheep that I just would not ever have one for a guard. All 3 were extremely aggressive and would attack the sheep. How those with donkeys actually guarding their flock does it is beyond me but I have had serious sheep injuries due to the donkeys. I wouldn't own another while I own sheep! (I know you weren't specifically asking about donkeys but thought I'd pipe in with my donkey exp. as I would imagine the possibilities would be similar with a burro or mule.)


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

We had some luck with one donkey two screwed it up. I've heard as many horror stories as success with dogs. I've never liked have an attack animal out of my control, even if "they've always been nice to people before" I'm sure guard dogs work if you know how to train them, actually do the work, needed and aren't put off by getting rid of the duds that don't work out. If you want a mule anyhow then get one but any livestock protection will be a bonus, its just too hit or miss to be a certainty. Electric fences, some practice with a capable gun, and common sence management seem to have the most success for most people.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

If you look into a Guarden Donkey, only get one, a Jenny, and one raised with the animals you want it to protect. Other wise, they will stomp your animals silly.
Same with a Llama.
I went the llama route with my sheep, and well lets just say, it did not work out at all, and I was very careful.

I do have a Donkey in with my miniature horses. She is working out well as a early warning system. But She is a Jenny, was raised with miniature horses and is 5 months old. She warns me if anything is moving about that shouldn't be there, and with that Bray I can hear her for miles. Then my Handy Dandy 22. or 30-30 will come out.

But like was said before they are pray animals and can't defend your sheep from a large packs or mountain lions or the like.

As Ross said a LGD could work, but you need to train them, and training a puppy even already raised and started with livestock will take a lot of work.
One reason I haven't gotten one yet. That and the cost for a good one.

A good strong, tall Woven field or cattle panel fence, with many lines of hot wire on both sides and a charger rated for Predators would be a good start.
Learning to use correctly and having a Shot gun or such will also help.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

And a tent so you can spend more time with your sheep. Remember attacks happen usually very early in the morning when most of us prefer to be asleep.


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## kesoaps (Dec 18, 2004)

A few years back I had a pair of llamas...not as guardians, but because I thought they were kinda cool and wanted to do some packing. The guardian instinct takes a couple years to kick in, and not all of them get it. Of the two I had, one would have done well, the other would have made better llama-burger. 

We've had multiple cougar and bear sitings here, and coyote, too. I've got two little dogs that no-one would ever consider a threat to wildlife, but they're vocal, and that seems to do the job. They go outside about 10 to do their final patrol, and are up again at 7. One morning about 4 Rufus began talking and wanting out, so I got up and opened the door. He shot like a bullet out back, and something LARGE went crashing through the trees. I couldn't see it, but Ruf had known it was there. Two days later we saw the cougar crossing the road, and the neighbor told us she'd found it napping outside her bedroom window the day before  

Anyway...short story long...even indoor dogs can play a role in saving your flock!


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## Sue (Jul 22, 2002)

We have had excellent luck using LGDogs ~ two Pyrenees and one Anatolian. They work off natural instinct if they are raised with the sheep, they naturally bond and want to protect them ~ no training involved at all. Just leave them alone as puppies with the sheep and most will bond and protect. Don't make the mistake of petting on them or letting them come to the house. Yes, you do need to watch that they don't "play" with the sheep as they mature but an occasional reprimand was all that was ever needed here. Never a life lost to predators and we are thick with coyotes and bobcats. We do also have cougars in the area. They will even chase the hawks, eagles and owls that fly over ~ now that's a good dog!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I second what Sue said. We have 3 Pyrenees and they guard instinctively, NO training needed or wanted. Ours are affectionate with us and wonderful with our kids (infact, they guard the children too if they venture out into the woods) but not "pets" like our other dogs. They sleep in the barn and pasture and are perfectly happy with the arrangement. We have cougars, bears (black and grizzly on occasion, wolves, and coyotes, and while our neighbors find tracks right near their homes, the predators steer clear of our sheep and goats, as well as our property lines.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Sue & Lisa, 

Who did you buy your LGD's from?

My Biggest worry, is not all will guard/protect, and knowing friends that have had their LGD kill their cavles and ewes.
Wonder maybe in this day and age, its certain lines within a breed along with being raised with the animals they are to guard with their parents makes a big difference?


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Not all of anything will do its job - just look at humans and I'd wager big money that more LGD's are doing their job effectively than humans doing theirs. 

That said the LGD must be raised with sheep or goats from birth. We raise anatolians and have never had one returned to us, although the offer is made to everyone who buys one from us with their purchase price being refunded if the dog doesn't work. Our last dog to go is so sheep oriented that he helps the ewes lick off the newborn lambs and they don't mind a bit. He is a whopping 8 1/2 months old and already perfectly safe with sheep. He is 3/4 anatolian 1/4 great pyr. His full sister (also 1/2 sister to my other anatolian ***** who is full anatolian) will be bred this spring, whelping in summer I guess. She is with my valuable registered California Red ewes right now at 8 1/2 months old.

I would not sleep well at night without these dogs. We also have never lost a chicken to a predator either.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

My friends with donkeys are quite pleased. The donkeys have to be standard or mamoth, not miniature. The minis are just too small, though they will guard. Not all donkeys will work out as guardiens. If you want a guard donkey, it would be best to contact someone with several donkeys, and ask which one will guard the sheep. Donkeys can live to be thirty years or older, so don't be afraid to buy a mature donkey. You can use a jennet or a gelded jack. If your jennet has a foal, she will be more interested in her baby for a while than in protecting the herd. If you have a large flock, you will want more than one.

We have six sheep and two young jennets. The donkeys form one subset, the sheep another, but they keep near each other. Donkeys hate dogs. They need to become accostomed to the home dogs and will tolerate them.

Llamas need to be trained to be guards. You don't just buy a llama and stick it in with the sheep. They have to be raised with sheep and think they are one. That said, llama guards are always gelded as they can kill the ewes when they try to breed them.

If you want a dog, get a dog. If you don't want a dog, get a llama or donkey. Donkeys can live for thirty years, so you can buy an older animal and still have many years with him.


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## Sue (Jul 22, 2002)

My three good working dogs were purchased locally from different breeders as young 6-8 week old pups that were raised outdoors, but not with livestock. None of them are registered or come from any special bloodlines but they are all definitely pure blood as I saw the parents. We brought them home and immediately put them in pens with the sheep. They were raised from that day on with the sheep. They do not chase our chickens or horses either. The only trouble I have with them is that they insist to be with the sheep at ALL times. I can not move sheep into different pens or the working chutes without their dogs with them. If left behind, the dogs will go over the fences to get back with their flock. This is a very intense natural bond.

I have a good friend who runs a couple hundred head of sheep on a very rough 300 acres of hills and hollers here in the Ozarks. She had five donkeys as guardians and started losing sheep left and right. She quickly sold the donkeys and bought five young LGD from several different sources. She locked up the sheep in smaller pastures until the dogs were old enough to do their job. She then turned them loose again and she has not had a loss since (over two years now). These dogs were all bought from different breeders ~ one Anatolian, two Pyrs, and two Akbash. She got lucky too and they all work well ~ no training whatsoever ~ all natural instinct.


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## CountryGoalie (Aug 31, 2004)

I was just noticing all of the posts from folks who have said that they have Pyrs or Anatolians as livestock guarding dogs - are there any here on the board who are using or have ever used, a Kuvasz as an LGD?

We used to breed and show Kuvasz. Our guys are all retired now, and serve as an early warning system for any runaway critter or vehicle that they think moves too slowly in the vicinity of our house. They were not, however, raised with chickens or rabbits, and as such, most would gladly have them as a midnight snack. But, the dogs stay in their kennels, the rabbits stay in their section of the barn, and the coyotes avoid the barn due to the dogs. It works.

We had a couple that were actually sold to folks as LGDs, to be raised with the livestock, and we never got any complaints back (we, too, have a return policy). We also had one go into a program to assist a disabled person. Being a Kuvasz, she was a bit too independent to complete the program, as there were one or two things that just didn't suit her, but she went to live with someone in a wheelchair who helped run the program.

It's amazing how versatile LGD breeds can be. Mine double as pillows. :haha:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Heres where we got our boys: http://www.islandnet.com/ragdoll/pyrenees/index.html
One downside about pyrz: they do tend to wander unless securely fenced.


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## quailkeeper (Aug 18, 2004)

We just got a great pyrenees female she is approx 4-5 years old and never been around sheep or chickens. She doesn't mind the sheep, chickens, ducks, or geese. She keeps the coyotes, bears, huge bobcats, and other predators away. We intend to breed her to a 3/4 anatolian 1/4 great pyrenees male this summer. We also have not lost a chicken since she arrived. We did have a really bad problem with opossums (sp?).


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## quailkeeper (Aug 18, 2004)

Wow, I checked the link given above and they want $800 for pet quality pups!! Around here they sell for around $100-150. Thats what we intend to sell our pups for.


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## CountryGoalie (Aug 31, 2004)

quailkeeper said:


> We just got a great pyrenees female she is approx 4-5 years old and never been around sheep or chickens. She doesn't mind the sheep, chickens, ducks, or geese. She keeps the coyotes, bears, huge bobcats, and other predators away. We intend to breed her to a 3/4 anatolian 1/4 great pyrenees male this summer. We also have not lost a chicken since she arrived. We did have a really bad problem with opossums (sp?).


Just a question ... will this be her first litter? Having a first litter later in life can up the chances of having complications in pregnancy or in birth, so if you do plan on breeding her, do it as soon as possible.

And as always, I advocate health checks for the parents. Eye, and especially hip dysplasia, problems tend to be more common in the large breeds and should be screened for.

Good luck with your new girl.


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## quailkeeper (Aug 18, 2004)

She has had pups before. This will be our first dog to have puppies. I can't wait!!  Thank you!!


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## MeadowSong (Aug 2, 2013)

On llama and donkey guards: Never use a male llama at all, even castrated, according to a large llama breeder I talked to. She said the castrated males will eventually start trying to breed the sheep and kill them even if it's years down the road. I did have a castrated male for a couple of years with no trouble, but replaced him with a female. The llama people said that many llamas don't guard and your best bet is to buy from someplace that has several and pay attention to know who's keeping the predators back.

In my experience most donkeys DO guard (they don't all). They don't need to be put with livestock when they are babies and raised with them, although that certainly works. But they are highly intelligent, social animals and you need some idea of what's going on in that head of theirs to make it work. First of all, an intact male is likely to be way to aggressive to run with anything but cattle--and some will kill newborn calves (horse stallions sometimes do too, some just do). YOU ONLY GET ONE--otherwise it won't bond to the sheep. A jenny is by far the best bet, and she should be halter broke if you don't have the skill to teach her. They only like the sheep because they don't have a donkey friend. Sometimes two will guard (esp if it's a momma with her offspring), but I wouldn't bet on it, one is much better. They are bossy and expect the sheep to comply. If the donkey is getting too rough on the sheep, tie that sucker up for a while. After they think for a while (a couple hours), they are cool again. We've had to tie up a new donkey a couple of times. I can holler across the pasture and my donkey knows to "Quit", it happens a few times when they are new. When you have babies--don't lock them in the barn away from the donkey and then suddenly turn them out! That donkey will see that lamb 'chasing' the ewe and go after it. I lock ewes with new lambs in pens in the barn where the donkey can circulate freely. If I do have one out of site of the donkey, I introduce them when I bring the newbies out. Watch carefully when you have your first babies with a new donkey--esp a young one (starting with one no younger than four is nice, unless it was born there with your sheep). Be ready with a longe whip (for training horses, has a long lash), stick and string (also for training horses), or cattle sorting stick with a 4-5 foot light rope duck-taped to the end. When you can reach your donkey from the distance you are with the stick and string, you can separate the donkey from the sheep if you have trouble. Then catch the donkey (quietly) and tie them up. After a while (couple hours) carry the lamb over. Then lead the donkey to the ewe and lambs. Be ready to tap her/him back with the stick or the lead rope. You can teach them (most of them, but don't even try with an intact male) decent behavior. If they don't have donkey friends, they will bond to the sheep, but may need a few lessons on what's OK. 

I keep a donkey AND a llama with my Katahdins. The donkey and llama don't care much for each other, but each likes the sheep. When I wean, I put one with each group. When I've had just one or the other sometimes I've had a loss, but the two seem to be able to handle it. The only predators I have are lots of coyotes and some stray dogs (which are about worse). Guardian dogs are great, but I only have thirty acres and keeping the dog home is a problem. But the dogs I've had were not bonded to the sheep. They've still been good guards, but patrol the whole place (and the neighbor's places) and so I've had losses in my sheep. After a loss then the dog keeps a closer watch--but with the donkey and llama, no losses.

This is rather a long piece, but wanted to help someone out with what I've learned. If you don't have experience with horses, you might have problems with donkeys--donkeys are easier than horses (and smarter as much as it hurts me to say it), but still require some understanding. If you don't have horse experience, perhaps you could find someone to give you some lessons, or a book, to help you understand equine social behavior. I'm a horse person to start with and really enjoy the relationship I have with my donkeys.


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## Slev (Nov 29, 2003)

Betty,

I would suggest you do 2 things. 1) Go buy a little pet dog for you to treat as a pet. 2) Contact the American Sheep Institute, (ASI) and ask them that question. When I asked, they said it somewhat depended on what they were being guarded against, and overall, a dog was the best bet, various breeds for different threats... Good Luck...


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## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

So far I have luck with a LGP: livestock guardian pig. Probably won't work for everyone. she does like the sheep and waits for them to come into the pasture in the morning so she can graze with them. I'm looking into getting something more dependable, though shes done a good job so far.


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## angelspeeper (Sep 6, 2012)

I don't want to discourage you but with the predators you listed, a donkey and llama are both out! Those are serious predators and you need serious protection or your gonna find yourself heartbroken when you find your sheep dead. Because as I found out the hard way, it WILL be your favorite one. 

I just had our donkey get killed by a mountain lion just last week. (That cat did me a favor, the donkey wouldn't even run the coyote off). So now I'm in the market for a couple of GOOD LGDs!!!!! And I said a couple, not just one. With those kinds of predators, They will need the help of a "pack" (2 or more) to gang up on the predator.


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> Not all of anything will do its job.


This is true. You hear horror stories about any type of guardian. Think about it: "And the donkey killed 4 of my sheep" is a much more interesting story than "All my sheep were fine this morning." So you only hear the bad stories. 

I don't have sheep but I know many many people use donkeys for protection. You are on the right track by asking the question on forums. Surely you will find folks with experiences other than the bad ones that seem to float around more easily.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

quailkeeper said:


> Wow, I checked the link given above and they want $800 for pet quality pups!!



I lost at least 40 lambs last year. Actually I think it was closer to 50 if you add the ewes I lost in. That's at least $4K loss for me. Each lamb will bring at least $100.00 at sale and I've had them go as high as $245.00. Think about it and see if those prices are really so outrageous if the dogs protect the sheep. The dog should live for at least 10 years, that's $80.00 a year vs $4K loss in this case. Think about it. Buy a quality animal that comes from a line of instinctive LGDs or take your chances on a donk or llama or dog from not such great lines for 1/4 to half that.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

We have had two pyranees. Both were good guard dogs, however the one we have now is amazing. We got him for $50.00 from a lady that raises them and had them at a small animal auction and they could not sell dogs so she offered them outside for $50.00. They had been raised so far with goats on the lady's farm. I wish we would have gotten two. 

He lives in the pasture with the sheep/goats which is where we started both of our pyranees as pups. We have an Australian shepherd that lives outside the pasture unless she is working with them on a move or bringing them in. I think she does a great job of detouring the predators before they get into the pasture and then he takes over. She stays close also. When we go out in the AM she is usually sleeping close to the fence and close to the pyranees and stock.


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## lesslea317 (Mar 13, 2013)

I have an amazing Anatolian/G.P. Mix, was only a few hundred bucks and now all the wild animals have stopped coming around. He just lays around and marks the territory. He doesn't even eat very much considering his size....very impressed with LGD's...my other girl is Anatolian/border collie mix and she sleeps in the chicken coop at night. She was even cheaper and worth the peace of mind. I've seen more horror stories with complete coop casualties of rare and pricey poultry because there wasn't a big dog around. I'm completely new to homesteading, livestock and dogs but it really haan't been that complicated to train animals along their natural tendencies imho.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

lesslea317 said:


> I have an amazing Anatolian/G.P. Mix, was only a few hundred bucks and now all the wild animals have stopped coming around. He just lays around and marks the territory. He doesn't even eat very much considering his size....very impressed with LGD's...my other girl is Anatolian/border collie mix and she sleeps in the chicken coop at night. She was even cheaper and worth the peace of mind. I've seen more horror stories with complete coop casualties of rare and pricey poultry because there wasn't a big dog around. I'm completely new to homesteading, livestock and dogs but it really haan't been that complicated to train animals along their natural tendencies imho.


Yup same here-- we just brought our city dogs with us to the country- a giant schnauzer and Bernese Mt dog and they do the trick-- laze about during the day and up all night patrolling-- its only 2 acres but our free range flock of Jersey Giants have been fine not a single loss and the coop is open at night too... We are getting either goats or sheep fairly soon....and just brought home a 3/4 Great Pyr 1/4 Anatolian pup a couple weeks ago and he is doing great bonding with the chickens and his dog pack as well as plays with our child...


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

yes our neighbor did have a wild (I mean adopted from a BLM roundup WILD) donkey in the pasture next to ours for a year she was in with sheep no problem-- although I did notice that when he acquired some lambs he borrowed a friends Akbash ***** for the summer -- that neighbor moved this fall....
Also as in my response above, how much land do you have? I dont think you have completely to isolate your LGDs you can have a family farm dog situation (depending on how much land and livestock) and have a dog that protects the farm as well as is companionable when you are out and about (our dogs being pets does not impair their territorial and guarding abilities)....


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Bret4207 said:


> I lost at least 40 lambs last year. Actually I think it was closer to 50 if you add the ewes I lost in.


Ouch! That's a huge loss. Seems like you can go for a long time, even years, without coyote issues. Once they get started the losses are huge. 
I started out with a donkey, and he worked for a while. Next I had a llama, he also worked for a while. The coyotes figured them out and I still had losses. The lgd is well worth what he costs. I now have two Anatolian/Pyr crosses with zero losses. They aren't for everybody though as they do take some training and management. 
The mule might work for a very small flock, like 10 or so. My mule was not raised with sheep, but does good around them. He was a bit aggressive at first, but never hurt any.


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## Scraprageous (Sep 4, 2013)

We have two Great Pyr's. Raised with sheep since pups. The pups are just over a year old. Our golden retriever is alpha (and about 1/3 the size of the pups), but if anything comes on the property without a welcome from us, those two will attack. They bark first, but if their bark is not heeded, they will go on the attack. We have horses, cows, sheep pigs, donkeys, cats and chickens. We have worked with them a lot to get them to know what is theirs to guard. Turns out, they do a bit of herding (unexpected by us) with both sheep and cows, but that isn't their job. 

The male pup's instincts are extremely good with the sheep, the female walks 'patrol' all night long. A strange dog came towards her, she barked her warning and before the dog got to her, the male was there and about to attack. Luckily my son was with her and called him off as the other dog owner came running. The dogs obey, but it has taken time to train.

Dogs require a lot of time and training. I agree - if you don't want a dog, definitely don't get one. Our male dog is becoming better as he ages. Even though we know he doesn't like sheep that well, last year a newborn lamb escaped (it was another 20 below night) and he went and laid down next to it until we came later. Lamb was alive and warm. He was only 5 months old at the time, so we know it was instinct - never expected him to act like that at that young age.

We tried donkeys, but no real luck with the sheep. However, they do put up a heck of a racket in case we miss hearing a dog bark. Bears are not really a big issue around here, mainly just coyotes and wolves. The bears usually take another route around as a neighbor a mile away also has a Great Pyrenees.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Something to watch for with the dogs, at least with our Pyr/Antatolin crosses- our male kidnaps new born lambs. We have to watch him. We come to the field and find Sam curled up with 2 or 3 new borns laying on him. The ewe will be standing to to the side wondering how shes gonna get her babies back! It's not all bad as Sam saved at least 3 or 4 lambs that wandered off or got in trouble. We have one rock ledge with a cleft in it that a lamb falls in at least a couple times each year. This year every time a lamb fell in Sam or his sister Dee would be sitting there guarding the lamb and often barking to us. 

Good dogs, that's what we lucked into!


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## bcnewe2 (Aug 24, 2013)

Just thought I'd chime in here with our stories.
I've had sheep for some time and moved to 3 different states with them. 
I started with a guard llama. He was a baby intact male. We had him neutered and only once did he try to mount a little ewe. We corrected him. (yelled horribly and rolled him off her) and he never tried again.
Moved to AR with him and my flock of about 30 sheep. That first month we lost probably 5+ ewes to huge coyote packs. Poor llama was devastated but couldn't properly do the job. So we got 2 pyrs. non related at about 5 months old. They slept with the sheep but we did socialize them to us during the day.
They grew into some of the best guard animals I owned. The llama would gather his flock and the dogs would dispense the threat of anything that dared threaten their family. but the pyrs roamed quite a bit. Didn't matter as we lived out in no where ville.

Moved to CO, didn't take our sheep sold them along with the 2 dogs. Re bought my herd and got 2 akbash puppies as guards. They to did a wonderful job. we had cougars, bear and I even heard of wolfs coming down from Wyoming. But they roamed big time. Again it didn't matter much as we lived on top a mountain with very little population. Moved and again sold the dogs with the sheep.

Moved back to MO to only 15 acres. But foxes and other predators were killing my chickens right and left. So got a 4 month old Anatolian Shepherd. The research I did said they were the least likely to roam. We also have close neighbors, we needed to socialize the pup so not to threaten the neighbors. 
She lives with sheep 24/7 but she is allowed to come out in the evening to get human attention. She will come when I use my sweet voice but is usually found with her sheep.

She is by far the best lgd I've ever had. The first few weeks I kept her in a paddock with a few lambs and a hot wire around the bottom of a weak fence. She hit it only once and never tried the fence again. She has never wandered off the property and doesn't bark at neighbors unless they do something out of the ordinary. She is now about 10 months old and we've started lambing. She tried to "play" with the young lambs who were coming up to her dancing around her. It took 2 corrections to get her to understand and she has been perfect with the lambs ever since.

If you have big predators, more than a few lone coyotes or anything bigger I highly recommend a good LGD or 2. Look on Craig's list or at your local feed mill bulletin board for dogs that come from working environments.
I do not believe in just putting them in without any interaction. They need to be taught how to behave around people and other critters. No jumping, leash training, mainly how to be good citizens around humans. I've had to take this dog to the vet. She was barely leash trained, had I not done that it would of been nearly impossible to get her there. You need to treat them for parasites and what not so it's imperative that you be able to handle them. If left unsocialized you will just be making more work for yourself.
My girl loves my family and being out with the other dogs. But only for short periods of time. Then she's raring to get back to her sheep.

I've seen some nice guard donks but I've also seen some that will toss a lamb in a heart beat. I've also seen some nice guard horses. But again, I've seen the opposite too. Llamas are not big enough to fend off large predators but if predation is light the up side to them is you feed them like a sheep or goat so no expense on extra dog food. I've even had some lg. alpacas that would alert to neighbor dogs but had anything big came in, they'd of been useless.

I don't think I'd own chickens or sheep without a good LGD.

Good luck on what ever you decide on.
Kristen
2 Rivers Sheep Farm


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

I know this is sheep forums but wanted to chime in here about the LGDs- well we have a giant schnauzer, a nocturnal Bernese mt dog-- and they do a fine job with our flock of Jersey Giant free range chickens-- havent lost a one to predators and its been a yr and a half now...
(we did just get a Pyr/anatolian pup, there has been a bit of a bear issue for our neighbors recently)...


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## roadrunner347 (Sep 8, 2013)

Cat said:


> I can say after having 3 donkeys with my sheep that I just would not ever have one for a guard. All 3 were extremely aggressive and would attack the sheep. How those with donkeys actually guarding their flock does it is beyond me but I have had serious sheep injuries due to the donkeys. I wouldn't own another while I own sheep! (I know you weren't specifically asking about donkeys but thought I'd pipe in with my donkey exp. as I would imagine the possibilities would be similar with a burro or mule.)


Before I got my donkey, I read up on what I should get. You can't just take any old donkey and try to make a guardian out of it. It needs to be at least a standard sized donkey if not a "mamoth". No mini's. And it should be a Jenny not a Jack. Jacks tend to be to rough on the sheep. My girl, did a wonderful job protecting my ewes and my ram. She was not an adult when I got her and she was raised with the sheep she was supposed to protect. We don't have bears or mountain lions. Just coyotes, dogs and foxes. And I have seen her going after them with her mouth open reaching for them. And have found several dead foxes in the pasture at lambing time. Now she is 18 yrs old and arthritic, and I won't let her do it anymore. So I need to find a guardian to replace her.


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## roadrunner347 (Sep 8, 2013)

bergere said:


> Sue & Lisa,
> 
> Who did you buy your LGD's from?
> 
> ...


We've got a veterinary in our area that breeds 3/4 Pyr & 1/4 Anatolian puppies. Seems to be a good cross. Still protective but not as over the top as some Anatolians can be. But I think it all comes down to learning how to teach a LGD and investing the time. Time invested in the dog, is invested in your flock at the same time. Most of the ones I have run into have the strong instinct to protect. It just has to be guided, and the dog not turned into a pet. That doesn't mean that you can't pet the dog. It has to know who you are or it won't let you near it's sheep. But it has to be bonded to the herd it is supposed to protect. You will feed it, and guide it it until it has figured it all out. But the independence bred into it, is necessary for it to do the job it is bred for. You can't be standing out in the pasture all night telling it when and what to "get". There is a good book you can get on Amazon..."Livestock Protection Dogs"...that can help guide you in your LGD training.


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## lesslea317 (Mar 13, 2013)

I read livestock protection dogs and found it very helpful... I still think it helps to get a LGD that has been raised with the animals it protects though. I got mine from Karras farm in north Carolina. Every now and then I put a heavy chain on him for a day to remind him who the boss is, otherwise he tends to run the show, and he is naturally really good at that  we recently put him with a new calf we felt was the most vulnerable. It went great, and our LGD has taken to him very well and is very protective of him. Our LGD tends to do a lot of pawing at first with new animals and spaces, but it's not harmful, rather like herding for safety. Once he knows things are ok, it ceases.


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## lesslea317 (Mar 13, 2013)

CAjerseychick said:


> I know this is sheep forums but wanted to chime in here about the LGDs- well we have a giant schnauzer, a nocturnal Bernese mt dog-- and they do a fine job with our flock of Jersey Giant free range chickens-- havent lost a one to predators and its been a yr and a half now...
> (we did just get a Pyr/anatolian pup, there has been a bit of a bear issue for our neighbors recently)...


We have an Anatolian/border collie on chicken duty and I would agree that it is an excellent use for a dog, even if it's just a nightwatch position outside the coop... Our Ezra is a farm porch dog during the day and not as LGD instinct-wise in general, so chicken duty was a good fit...lol


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## Night_stalker (Sep 24, 2013)

Guarding against bears? That might be a real issue. Either you go electric fence, or pray the bears don't come near, because the only alternative I see is one of these babies:










The dog, not the guys in padding. They're called Caucasian Shepard Dogs, and they weigh 99lb, bare minimum. No pun intended.

Of course, where I work, we have no bears, only a occasional fox/coyote possibility, and the boss has three dogs, one of which is a Pyrs, another is a Pyrs/Swiss White Shepard mix, and the scariest one is a Cocker Spaniel.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I had a big Bear problem... Cougar, bobcats, packs of Coyotes...etc..in NW Oregon.

DH put up a fort knox "Night pasture", and no matter how hard the Bear tried to get in, he couldn't. Most he did was partly bend one of the heavy duty T-post and pooped a couple of the top insulators. Fence shocked the stuffing out of him.
Have shown photos of this fence, many times on this forum. 

LOL Those Cocker spaniels can be something!


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## hastyreply (Nov 10, 2012)

So did anyone hear about the llama who got killed and eaten by the bear in Wyoming? 

http://tetonvalleynews.net/news/bea...cle_21044a6a-2bc5-11e3-9142-0019bb2963f4.html


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

No, didn't hear that but it doesn't surprise me. 

Back when I lived in WA... a Cougar took out the mammoth donkey, the black faced sheep breeder down the road from me had. Was there to guard the sheep, but it ate the donkey and a couple of the sheep.
Prey animal, is a pray animal. They are eaten by Bears, cougars and so on.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

hastyreply said:


> So did anyone hear about the llama who got killed and eaten by the bear in Wyoming?
> 
> http://tetonvalleynews.net/news/bea...cle_21044a6a-2bc5-11e3-9142-0019bb2963f4.html



Not surprising. My border collies had no problem making the Llama move with the sheep. One or two grips and he turned, just like a cow would. The same Llama would back down a weak dog. I suspect it depends on the gumption of the predator.


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## Night_stalker (Sep 24, 2013)

hastyreply said:


> So did anyone hear about the llama who got killed and eaten by the bear in Wyoming?
> 
> http://tetonvalleynews.net/news/bea...cle_21044a6a-2bc5-11e3-9142-0019bb2963f4.html


Not that surprised, bears are typically the apex predator in the area, and as such, are Out of Context Problems for any Llama to deal with.

Hence why we use electric fences, or at least electric wires around our fence.


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## Sheep Lassie (Aug 15, 2013)

Cat said:


> I can say after having 3 donkeys with my sheep that I just would not ever have one for a guard. All 3 were extremely aggressive and would attack the sheep. How those with donkeys actually guarding their flock does it is beyond me but I have had serious sheep injuries due to the donkeys. I wouldn't own another while I own sheep! (I know you weren't specifically asking about donkeys but thought I'd pipe in with my donkey exp. as I would imagine the possibilities would be similar with a burro or mule.)


As far as donkeys go, it depends on their personality. We had a jack and a jenny. Normally, jennies are better tempered than jacks, but in our case it was reversed: the jack was easy going, gentle, and friendly, and the jenny was nervous and aggressive (to sheep). When we put the jack in with my lamb as her guard, he was gentle and sweet. The lamb would suck on his ears (she wasn't weaned yet). We already knew he was sweet to smaller animals, because he allowed cats to run around under his feet. He just had a really laid back personality.
When we tried putting the jenny in with the lamb, she was dangerous and aggressive. I think it was because she really, really like two things: human attention and grain. So if we ever came anywhere near the pasture, she would get jealous and possessive, and would chase the lamb. 
Later, when we got a goat, the jack would allow the goat to climb on his back!! It was the sweetest relationship. He loved his two little pals and took good care of them. 
But he was an exceptional donkey. I'm afraid there aren't very many donkeys like that out there.


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## wilded (May 10, 2002)

We have a gelded llama that does his job very well. Our main predators are coyotes and stray dogs with the occasional bobcat.


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## Night_stalker (Sep 24, 2013)

Now that this thread has been resurrected, I have some nice recent pictures of the dogs to show y'all!










First up, Lisel, our 9 year old Cocker Spaniel and Cindi Lou, our 1 year old Swiss White Shepard/Pyrenees.










And then we have Inka, our 5 year old Pyrenees and Cindi, again.










And here is Ms. Lou with a possum (Faking, not dead), she caught near our sheep.


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