# Grazing question



## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Quick question, I'm hoping to eventually rotationally graze a very small mixed herd, about 4,000 lbs total. My question is that for the first couple years I think I'll need about 700 square feet a day and for me it would be easiest to do very long thin strips, most ideal would be about 70' long by 10' wide. I'm assuming though that a 1200 lb cow would not be comfortable in a 10' wide pasture. I will never have enough animals to successfully set up a spoke system with my barn at the center and I would rather not build shelters all over the property. 
Recommendations?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

They probably do not need shelters. They need shade in the hot part of the summer. In the winter you will be feeding them hay, which they can eat outside with a windbreak. 

You don&#8217;t have to move them every day, you can move them every two or three days.

I&#8217;ve done this with sheep, I&#8217;m sure it would work with cattle. You give them enough width, say 30 feet. After three days you move the back forward 10 feet and front forward 10 feet. They still have 30 feet width for comfort, but will have enough fresh pasture to graze on. Or, you give them enough for three days at a time.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you go into your profile, there is a spot for your location. This will appear in the upper right corner of every post. If we knew your location we would be able to better give you advice.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Maura said:


> If you go into your profile, there is a spot for your location. This will appear in the upper right corner of every post. If we knew your location we would be able to better give you advice.



I keep trying this but I must be doing something wrong because I can see my profile but not edit it. I'm in Southern Michigan, almost to Ohio. Planting zone 5b/6 depending on who you ask. These pastures haven't been grazed for 10+ years and some areas have grasses and brush that are about 4-6 feet tall. Many of the neighbors have grazing animals so I'm assuming the grass is salvageable even if it's not the most desirable combination right now.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I figured it out. I just had to try on my really old, wheezy computer instead of my phone. Thanks!


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I thought I'd put up a picture of the layout for clarity. The overlay grid squares are 100'x100' and the NE Corner is going to be a 200x200' garden space. The barn is 32x50 and my half is the West portion with the main door facing West. This is not the whole property but this is the portion I'm starting with.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Vickivail98
How do you plan to get cattle to water and to minimize back grazing?


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

agmantoo said:


> Vickivail98
> 
> How do you plan to get cattle to water and to minimize back grazing?



I don't know! I do have winterized water run to the barn which makes things much easier. I'm considering having a permanent sacrifice paddock that runs up to the barn. I would put a shed roof over part of the area and have water and minerals available there. If it ran in a thin rectangle off the NW barn corner towards the NW corner of the pastures I could just have water near the barn to reach most areas. I may just have to haul it somehow though. I will have a very small number of animals so it could be done with buckets if I had to. I am a gardner and do currently have 500' of hose as well but in the winter that would be a nightmare.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Here is a modified pic of the one you posted. Getting water to cattle and handling the rotational grazing moves may be more than you realize. A mature cow can drink up to 30 gallons per day in hot weather. A mature cow will eat as much as 30 lbs. of grass per day. Frequent moves are necessary to maximize forage. Forage is the maximum expense for many cattle producers. I have assisted a number of people with their layout so here are some suggestions. 

Rethink your square layout.
Install a permanent perimeter fence. Security for your animals is essential.
Maximize the use of what permanent fence your build.
within the perimeter fence minimize what temporary fence you build.
Make everything you build do dual tasks.
The above said, Put a perimeter fence around the big rectangle.
Install a lane similar to what I have laid out.
Have water in the lane.
Use the lane to get to most of the forage areas.
Use poly wire and pigtail posts for your internal partitions.
Do not make the small square partitions. They will hinder equipment movement.
I am certain I have omitted something or that I am unclear with my suggestions. If so and this interests you just ask for clarification.


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## stockdogcompany (Jan 25, 2015)

Hey Vicki,

Agmans basic layout looks good. You can buy HDPE waterline and hook to a hydrant in the barn and lay it on the edge of the proposed lanes, with intermittent t's and turn off valves to hook to a length of garden hose to hook to a nice jobe float and a stock tank. Move paddock to paddock each move. Slide it under break wires so it can be used from both side and you only need to move every other rotation. 

The sacrifice pad idea is fine, but to avoid accumulating too much mud some water in other paddocks can work. For small groups, I've taken big capacity water tanks(300+ gallon) made a steel frame to set inside of it to support a plywood or plank cover, leave a cow size hole in the sheet with some angle iron framing to keep them from tearing it to hell, and then fill the tank with garden hose to full when needed or weather is nice enough. Return hose to nice warm garage, etc. Then get a couple of dump trailers of woodchips and a little wet poor hay, mix up, and bury the tank. Make a self heating compost pile on and around he tank. Use a break wire and posts to keep cattle from laying on top of it and collapsing it. Cover the hole with plywood or blue board when not in use. It will be steaming.

Make this pile sometime in November before you get too cold. Wet the chips thoroughly to kickstart bacterial degredation. If you can't get junk hay to provide protein for the compost, you can sprinkle in ammonium sulfate or urea. If you do it big enough it will be hot until May.

Pond liner and a free used large tractor tire could work as well. Could probably figure out a way to use cinder blocks or 4x4's or 6x6's to make a good enough support hold up a few tons of composting chips on an old plank barn door or other refuse. 

Find whats available, cheap and do-able with the brains and skills you have handy around the place.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Wow! What great ideas. I should have clarified, the grid is only for measurement purposes. I won't have enough animals to run them in 100' square paddocks, it would be too big. I did walk the perimeter today (we finally close tomorrow) and was delighted to see that there is a nearly clear fence line all the way around, even through the back 5 acres of woods. A perimeter fence (probably 4 string to start with two hots added when we get piglets) has jumped way up my to do list. If I installed a lane system like this should it be permanent? If I don't allow them access while the weather is bad enough to prevent grazing or in super mud season will it not turn into a wallow? 
I do have plans to use tractor tires with a bag of cement yo cap the bottom for waterers but I never thought about building a compost pile behind it. That's brilliant!!! And now I definitely need a tractor of some sort. 

The info I found suggested that as a general rule 1000 lbs of ruminant needs about 30 lbs of grass per day. Does this sound somewhat reasonable? I'll be allowing more for the first few years while I get some of the less nutritious and less edible plants crowded out. I may do some test patches to decide if I want to deliberately over graze the existing grasses so I can reseed or allow them to continue as they are. This is such a big topic it's hard to know where to start.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Post #9 covers the water and forage needs.

I suggest that you go to the top of the cattle forum to the sticky on rotational grazing. You will find information there that you may be unaware on the subject.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Hello, I'm working my way through the rotational grazing sticky but it's going to take a while. I do have a sort of pressing question for you becAuse it looks like spring is going to be very early here and I can't get critters working out there this year but I need to know what I can do to prep for next year. I'm putting in the perimeter fence and I finally got to see the ground snow free. It's more reedy than I anticipated. We have two patches of Phragmites Australis (common reed) and some small bushes that I need to demolish. We currently have NO equipment that is big enough to knock this down while its more than a few inches high. I'm pushing my hubby to skip buying a riding mower and go straight to a small tractor but if I can't convince him what would you suggest? I could mow it very early and keep it mowed short, hire a neighbor to knock it down once or twice this year or set the whole ---- thing on fire and see what comes back. Or? It's been left untouched for more the 15 years. Thanks so much.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Just a few thoughts.

Complete the perimeter fence.
Buy just a couple of cattle.
Get some polywire and pigtail posts. 
Pigtail posts with the metal posts
Get a fence charger with a high output.
Output not less than 6 joules.
Charger powered by AC if convenient.
Install water source where convenient at this time 
Plan to later expand the water
Leave the weed/trash growth "as is" for now
Hold off on the mower for now
Tame the animals, train them to the electric fence

At this juncture you should now be ready to start your cattle rotationally grazing. Move the cattle within the perimeter fence using the electrified poly wire. Have the cattle to loaf in the reedy/overgrown with trash and limit graze where you have grass. Come behind the open areas with various forage seed that are in season and sow same. Sow some clover that is suitable to your location ASAP. The cattle will eat or destroy much of what you want gone and is there now. You can limit the cattle to grazing the lawn grass using the polywire/pigtail post to a great extent. This will reduce much of the need for the expensive mower and at the same time justify the need of a used tractor. It will also help you determine that you want to be in the cattle business and at the same time acquaint yourself to handling the cattle and chores. IMO the above should get you started. Any questions just ask.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

A riding mower works - it's hard on the mower, but effective if you mow while the grass is short enough. Ideally, a brush hog would keep the height better (4-6 inches).

Burning can be helpful on an old field - burn from edges inward and not if the season has gotten too dry. A harrow can help break up the clods once you've burned. You could always overseed some clover, etc. for nitrogen fixing.

It's ok to not have animals on it this year if you can mow frequently. You can also let weeds start to form a head, then cut them down. That way they've used max nutrition to form the flower, but without the seeds developing. 

I wouldn't put your fencing in til you're close to getting animals - that way you don't have to worry about hitting fences while mowing.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Agmantoo 
I'm sorry I didn't explain better in my OP, I never intended to have any beef only cattle. I'm planning to buy a bred Lakenvelder from my milk farmer, he raises them strictly on pasture with grain only as a treat. I'll keep a replacement milker and a steer every other year for household use. If I AI her with a quality bull any calf sold should really help offset my costs. I could alternate with a lovely Angus bull that I have free of charge access to. I'm just looking to break even and feed my family. Right now I'm spending 1250$ a year on raw milk! I will add a pair of goats, possibly a trio of sheep if things are going well, mostly for selling offspring and meat and cheese for us. 
For this year the only grazing animals I could afford would be dairy steer cast offs and even those are running at almost $100 each and they generally are a hassle to bottle feed because they just aren't that vigorous. 
I will get the perimeter fence started ASAP and start planning out waterers. 
I do have about three acres of really lush lawn I would be much happier having grazed than mowing. 
Until I get all my equipment purchased and perimeter fence installed is there something I should do to improve these areas? Thanks so much for your time!


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

rosalind said:


> A riding mower works - it's hard on the mower, but effective if you mow while the grass is short enough. Ideally, a brush hog would keep the height better (4-6 inches).
> 
> Burning can be helpful on an old field - burn from edges inward and not if the season has gotten too dry. A harrow can help break up the clods once you've burned. You could always overseed some clover, etc. for nitrogen fixing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply. I do need tons of carbon for the compost piles so letting it really grow and then taking it down might be a good option. 
I need to get the fence up ASAP because we have a coyote problem and I'm trying to reduce the chances of my good breeding stock chicks getting eaten. I'm assuming (correctly I hope) that a high tension fence with a couple hot wires will dissuade them. I will have predator proof coops for nighttime. I also have small humans that I'd like to keep in and I need to start training them to avoid the hot wires &#128578;


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I concur with your plans going forward but suggest sticking with the bovines and the goats for the next year. These animals will blend with the chickens mutually benefiting each other and at the same time assisting you with the conversion of the rugged paddocks to fine forage producing paddocks. As you progress with your project your experiences, successes and your future plans will aid in determining the direction(s) you take. PS...start early controlling your input costs. The input costs are about the only thing a person in agriculture can influence. You will find that it is easier to save money than it is to earn money! I believe from reading your posts that you have already learned that. Good luck.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Agmantoo,
Thanks so much! I'm sure I'll be back for more specific help as I go along and work through the grazing sticky.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

Vickivail98 said:


> Thanks for your reply. I do need tons of carbon for the compost piles so letting it really grow and then taking it down might be a good option.
> I need to get the fence up ASAP because we have a coyote problem and I'm trying to reduce the chances of my good breeding stock chicks getting eaten. I'm assuming (correctly I hope) that a high tension fence with a couple hot wires will dissuade them. I will have predator proof coops for nighttime. I also have small humans that I'd like to keep in and I need to start training them to avoid the hot wires &#128578;


If you harvest the cut grass, you'll need to consider it a crop (meaning, removing nutrients from the field when harvested). If you're putting it into your compost pile, then re-spreading back on the fields once it's fully composted - that's ok! Labor intensive, but ok. 

Otherwise, I'd clip the fields and leave the clippings. It'll help increase your organic matter, but more importantly, each time you mow, the grass will get thicker. When you cut one blade, it'll grow back up as two. Do this a few times and the grass will thicken and choke out the weeds. It's important to do this regularly. Our rule of thumb is to let it grow to 1 foot, then cut down to 4-6 inches and repeat as necessary. Granted, we have animals pasturing in the meantime, but you can do it without pasturing, you may want to mow it before it gets to a foot in that case.

A perimeter fence should be ok, it's the interior fences that become a bother at mowing time. 

If you're worried about coyotes and your chickens, I'd highly recommend Premier One chicken netting. It's portable so you can move your chickens around easily and is fully electric so a good predator deterrent. https://www.premier1supplies.com/fencing.php?species_id=6


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

rosalind said:


> If you harvest the cut grass, you'll need to consider it a crop (meaning, removing nutrients from the field when harvested). If you're putting it into your compost pile, then re-spreading back on the fields once it's fully composted - that's ok! Labor intensive, but ok.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am excited about the premier fencing, I only need one length this year so it's very affordable! 
I was planning on using compost in the garden for the first couple years but maybe I'll share and only haul it off every other time. I also won't need it all, I've only got 50-100 chickens worth of poop to compost along with garden and processing scraps. I'm definitely going to have to push harder for the tractor instead of the mower. 
Not to hijack my own thread but if I mow it at about a foot high and leave it to dry will it get dry enough to be added as bedding for chicks? Looking to reduce my bedding purchases if I can.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Can't address all of your issues, but I think the age of the chicks is important. Some corners can be cut, but not when it comes to young poultry.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

G. Seddon 
Thanks, I won't have anything dry enough until chicks are probably 5-6 weeks old but I'll have to see how it dries up. I just need to find a good source for wood shavings for chicks.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I&#8217;m in the thumb and we never had problems with coyotes and chickens. We had problems with raccoons, so kept them behind electric at night. Then, the foxes moved in and no more chickens. I really think the netting causes an optical problem for the predators. Certainly a coyote would have no problem clearing a 3&#8217; or 5&#8217; fence. Having donkeys helped, too.

Goats will take care of the brush. They prefer bush leaves to grass. Consider waiting on the sheep and getting a couple of meat goats to clear out the wooded area.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

Vickivail98 said:


> I am excited about the premier fencing, I only need one length this year so it's very affordable!
> I was planning on using compost in the garden for the first couple years but maybe I'll share and only haul it off every other time. I also won't need it all, I've only got 50-100 chickens worth of poop to compost along with garden and processing scraps. I'm definitely going to have to push harder for the tractor instead of the mower.
> Not to hijack my own thread but if I mow it at about a foot high and leave it to dry will it get dry enough to be added as bedding for chicks? Looking to reduce my bedding purchases if I can.


That's how we've done it - buy a length or two from premier each year. My dad rotates his chickens on the fields and they do an excellent job of fertilizing. It makes you feel like you're getting your money's worth out of the insane amount of grain they're eating (beyond eggs or meat). Sheep are the other one I like for fertilizer - the little pellets are full of nutrients for the soil and break down easily.

If you do rotate your chickens on a field, they don't need bedding and/or you could leave the cut grass for them to lay on (in warm weather, it should dry within a few days). They just need protection from the air predators and from inclement weather. Depending on time of year, they could be outside full time by a month old or so. Rotating them is really easier than confinement because you don't have to clean up after them, you just move them! If you set up a sprinkler in the prior locations, that helps soak in the chicken manure.

Mower or Tractor first - it's a catch 22. A used push or riding mower can work until you can afford a tractor and brush hog. We have no tractor, but do have a neighbor with a tractor we can borrow. Before then, we used a push mower to mow the edges and had more cows, so they ate down the fields pretty well.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I will be rotating them during the day but they must be locked up at night. We definitely have coyotes and neighborhood dogs. I'll be less worried if we get the perimeter fence up and hot but that may take awhile because this has been the most tiring pregnancy so far and as much as I "love" to dig holes, it's going to take me a while to get my corner posts set.


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## boo-boo (Jan 28, 2016)

It works great but you really have to let the weather dictate how often to rotate. Obviously drought affects things but also real wet conditions can cause lower areas to become quagmire..


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

boo-boo said:


> It works great but you really have to let the weather dictate how often to rotate. Obviously drought affects things but also real wet conditions can cause lower areas to become quagmire..



That's an excellent point. I'm lucky enough to have some slight areas of varying elevation, it's probably only 3' difference but it happens to be laid out so that the highest point is a ridge along the center of my pastures which drains along both the north and south borders to the edge of the woods where I have a seasonal collection pond. Yeah!


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Is there an "Idiots guide to electric fencing"? I've come to the conclusion that I want to use a combination of high tensile and electric fencing for my perimeter fence and to make a permanent lane. I would like to use poly wire for cattle interior partitions and portable electric fencing to rotate chickens, goats and sheep through (separately). The enclosed area is small and weed disruption should be minimal. Can I use one charger to power the whole shebang? When I tie off the polywire it becomes charged or is it a separate system? Also, does it matter what shape my fences are? I know that sounds dumb but my perimeter fence will be a G shape because one corner is made up of a taller, more ridiculously expensive deer / rodent fence for the garden.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

"I've come to the conclusion that I want to use a combination of high tensile and electric fencing for my perimeter fence and to make a permanent lane."

I have put up thousands of linear feet of electrified fencing by myself. I would support this with the exception of the interior permanent lane. For the exterior perimeter fence I would only consider High Tensile Woven for the main fence. A high tensile electrified single strand for the top and even the bottom to keep out predators if that is what you are stating. For now handle the interior lane with the poly wire and the pigtail posts. Any animal that manages to get out will still be in the perimeter fence so it will be contained.

"I would like to use poly wire for cattle interior partitions and portable electric fencing to rotate chickens, goats and sheep through (separately)."

This should be no problem and readily achievable.

"Can I use one charger to power the whole shebang?" 

You certainly can and that is why I recommended a charger/energizer of not less than 6 joules.

"When I tie off the polywire it becomes charged or is it a separate system?"

You can manage the entire electrical needs from the single charger. Yes the hot wire on the perimeter fence can be made to encircle your complete layout and you can pick up power any where needed from that wire.

"......my perimeter fence will be a G shape ......"

This is not a good idea. High tensile fence, be it stranded wire or woven wire puts a lot of tension on the fence posts. It is best to make straight runs and to brace the ends. Instead of a circle make the fence in segments like a stop sign/hexagon/octagon/ etc.

Video on fencing http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=kencove+fencing+videos&qpvt=kencove+fencing+videos&FORM=VDRE


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

Vickivail98 said:


> I will be rotating them during the day but they must be locked up at night. We definitely have coyotes and neighborhood dogs. I'll be less worried if we get the perimeter fence up and hot but that may take awhile because this has been the most tiring pregnancy so far and as much as I "love" to dig holes, it's going to take me a while to get my corner posts set.


Are you talking about the chickens? How do you plan to lock them up at night? Most outdoor/grazing situations, there's a coop (aka "chicken tractor") in the pen that the chickens are locked up into.

Cows can be trained easily to be locked up at night - a little bit of grain or hay in the barn and they learn in an instant where to go when you open the field gate.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I have put up thousands of linear feet of electrified fencing by myself. I would support this with the exception of the interior permanent lane. For the exterior perimeter fence I would only consider High Tensile Woven for the main fence. A high tensile electrified single strand for the top and even the bottom to keep out predators if that is what you are stating. For now handle the interior lane with the poly wire and the pigtail posts. Any animal that manages to get out will still be in the perimeter fence so it will be contained.

Do you mean the woven fence that has the squares or rectangles? That was my original plan but I can't afford it. The fence itself is cheap but it requires a post every 10-13 feet and even the step ins are about $6 each. The interiors will definitely be polywire and pigtails, your pics on the other thread make them look so easy! 
I'm thinking a 6 line wire with a hot at pig level, cow level, and something to discourage goats. We do have a coyote problem but I don't know how to keep them out without installing an apron fence around 1200' of pasture. I've heard that they avoid dogs so maybe that will help. 


"......my perimeter fence will be a G shape ......"

This is not a good idea. High tensile fence, be it stranded wire or woven wire puts a lot of tension on the fence posts. It is best to make straight runs and to brace the ends. Instead of a circle make the fence in segments like a stop sign/hexagon/octagon/ etc.

Sorry, I didn't explain it properly. It's a rectangle except the NE corner will have different fencing. The garden is in that corner and needs to be much higher and rodent proof. I'll install an end post on each side and add bracing. I've got medium heavy clay soil but a low rock population so it shouldn't be too challenging. 

Everything else you posted sounds great and thank you for all the help. I'm headed over to the goat and sheep forum to find out if everyone likes the Premier electronet fencing for sheep/ goats. Kencove's videos have been very helpful, thanks.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Hello all, I have another question. In post #6 I put up a layout pic of our property. I had originally intended to put up perimeter fence all along the edges (not the grid edges but the actual property edges) EXCEPT I was going to exclude the NE corner (200'x200') because that is where the garden is going and it needs a much taller fence. I'm installing electrified 6 wire fencing on the rest of the perimeter. Would it be more beneficial to run the 6 wire electric all the way around and then move the garden away from the electric fence or should I go with the original plan and have it butt up to the garden fence? It's cheaper to use my super tall garden fence in the corner but I wasn't sure if there would be a reason not too. I'll try to add a pic if I'm not being clear. Thank you


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

IMO if it is cheaper and not more inconvenient I would use the garden fence as is. Give consideration to the future when you will be maintaining the paddock area inside the perimeter fence while using the tractor to distribute manure and for mowing grass and trash weeds/small volunteer brush. I do not like obstacles and I am all for efficiency when working.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks agmantoo,
In the interest of not creating an annoying path to mow between the garden and the perimeter fence I think I'll terminate the perimeter fence at the garden. Thank you for your help!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

* I'm hoping to eventually rotationally graze a very small mixed herd, about 4,000 lbs total. My question is that for the first couple years I think I'll need about 700 square feet a day*

I did not do the math earlier but I do believe you need to re-check your allocation. With 100 + or - brood Cattle averaging ~1000 pounds per animal I need not less than 36000 sq. ft. of really good grass /day. On lower quality grass I will need to allocate 54,000 sq. ft. /day to the same herd. I typically will be grazing roughly 40 to 60 calves with the herd until the calves reach 500 lbs. I never wean these calves from the herd, I just send the feeder calves to market when they reach market weight. I run the herd together all year.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

My 4000 lbs will most likely be a pair of milk cows and occasional calf, (Dutch belted top out at around 1,100 lbs), a trio of goats and a trio of sheep. I only have 3 acres of pasture plus woods. Having such a small amount of animals is actually why I'm having such a hard time figuring this out, everything's geared towards a much bigger setup. If you're running 54,000 sq ft with 100 cows that leaves me at about 54 sq ft per cow plus other critters. I'm sure we're on the poor pasture end for now so I'll try and plan towards the large side. Because I'm using portable interior partitions for now it should be pretty easy to adjust size. For comfort I'm assuming I shouldn't try and portion off a10x10 area each day but should just move them every other day with bigger areas?
Edited- my math was off by a digit. 500 sq feet a day seems way more reasonable!!!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The reason I suggested using poly wire and pigtail posts was to enable you to have variable size paddocks. It was for the same reason that I did not want to have any internal permanent partitions inside the perimeter fence. One roll of poly wire and a couple dozen or so pigtail posts would maximize the use of the acreage you have. Being able to open the inside of the perimeter fenced area without any barriers would also let you work the area more efficiently plus utilizing all the area. I probably stated before it takes me 1.4 acres of good pasture to maintain 1 cow plus her calf until the calf is marketed at ~500 lbs. PS...arrange your garden where produce residue can be harvested by the animals. You may want to graze part of the garden during off season.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I am ordering polywire and the pigtails, they look so easy! Unless I decide to install a lane for water my only permanent interior fencing will be around the house for the kids. I am arranging the garden so I can graze the 1/3 I'm not using each year pretty easily.


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## sassafras manor (Dec 5, 2009)

Vicki...not to be critic of your math but it Agman's post his math comes out to 540 sq. ft. per animal not 54 sq. ft. per animal. I just didn't want you to try to confine your animals to too small of an area. His advice is well-respected and worth listening to.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks, I thought that seemed really low. I've got a serious cold that is apparently affecting me more than I thought!


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

I think someone already mentioned it, but how many animals you can pasture on X amount of land does greatly depend on the quality and type of land. In my area, that is greatly dependent on rainfall.

I have one six acre field that can feed about what I've got now which is 2 Jersey cows, a heifer, and 9 sheep.

If you only have 3 acres of pasture, I'd sure be gradual in adding animals until you see what your field can really feed. It's easier to have a small herd/flock than to buy too many animals and have to cull, unless you're a real farmer that is cold enough to cull frequently based on the needs of the farm. (Honestly, most newbies keep their animals way past their prime and are "in love" with their animals and have way too many for their acreage. It's easier if you start small, then you can take really good care of the animals you do have.)


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I will be starting small, a dairy cow here is $2,400. That's gonna slow me down quite a bit! Although, if she calves successfully and we get either a meat calf for ourselves or a calf to sell plus 10 months of milk we will break even after only the first year and a half including the fencing costs! Milk is $8.50 a gallon right now which makes a 2 gallon cheese wheel $17 and they only turn out sporadically.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

You can get a nice heifer for under $1000, it's a great way to start slow.

Don't expect to ever break even or profit in farming - if you ever do, count your blessings. Trust me, even at $8.50 a gallon. Do it because you love animals and want to provide healthy food for your family. Otherwise, I recommend buying Tillamook cheese by the 5 pound block from Costco for $15, which is just as healthy.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

$8.50 a gallon....aye yi yi! Glad I don't drink much milk.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

G. Seddon said:


> $8.50 a gallon....aye yi yi! Glad I don't drink much milk.


One gallon of Starbuck's drinks = approx. $32

I'm glad I drink a LOT of milk!


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

We don't drink a ton of plain milk but use a half gallon of yogurt a week, a gallon of Kefir and we love cheese! If we couldn't get it I think we would be mostly dairy free. Imagine no more cream- I would probably waste away!


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