# Whose fault this kid is failing?



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

This 17 year old boy only passed 3 classes in 4 years of high school but still ranked 62 out of a class of 120. He nearly made it to the upper half of his class. Doesn't say much for the school. But he was also late or absent 272 days of that 4 years. His mother says she thought he was doing well but just found out he has to start over at the 9th grade and puts all the blame on the school. Indeed it sounds like a terrible school but did his mother know why he was late or absent 272 days or where he was? Didn't she look at his report card or attend any parent/teacher conferences? Seems to be plenty of blame on both sides.

Baltimore HS student fails all but 3 classes over 4 years, ranks near top half of class | Fox News


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Parents. For child abandonment, even though they may have provided home and food.

School for not communicating with the parents for an extended period of time.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

My mom always believed in raising her kids with a hands-on approach and that included educating them in many things, school work as well. Seems to me that thesedays people who call themselves parents, who call themselves teachers, both have lost the meaning of their respective titles.

It was my mom who taught me language, math, history, cooking, general housekeeping and it was my dad who taught me how to kill my own food, how to make and repair things. Parents who spend time to teach their kids, what a crazy idea.

Back in my youth the teacher was always right and heaven help if you mouthed back or disobeyed, then the parents would back the teacher up on this (not that all teachers were equal then, some were lazy bums and my parents fought like lions to get such teachers fired).

I guess if any society sows the seeds of disobedience, sloth and apathy, this is what you reap in the kids. My two cents.


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## Gayle in KY (May 13, 2002)

The high school I went to only took attendance in homeroom, which was 15 minutes at the start of each day. Once I was marked as being present, I'd get in my car and leave. I did that for 2 years, only showing up for tests that would be required to pass each class. I graduated with 1/4 credit extra. Mom never knew I wasn't there because I was there for attendance.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I agree that parents could play a much larger role, but they aren’t the ones getting paid to teach! Teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies, they really should earn them.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

If the kid only passed 3 classes in 4 yrs and ranked at the middle of his class, that doesn't say much for the rest of the class, much less the school and its teachers-- but they're still getting paid for not working during CoV shut-down and will still get their yearly seniority raises.

_Why_ didn't I go into teaching?.. _*Why*_ didn't I go into teaching?..I must've been stupid.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Back when I was in HS you could pick some classes and some were required to graduate. I knew if I was failing and I also knew what it would take to graduate on time. I'm going to put the responsibility to get things done on the student.

It is a mystery to me why he could go on to a higher level without passing the first level in some classes.
As a parent of a student that didn't give a damn at that time in their lives, you do what you can do, but it's really up to the student to pull it all together and get things done.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Im from Baltimore and its always been this way since i was in elementary school. All white community put in busing. The richer neighbors started to fail kids them. First the black kids didnt act like the white kids. Didnt live in the area and caused problems in the neighborhood. Stealing bad behavior ect. It changed the pta the neighbor parents paid into helping school. Black parents had nothing invested on the school or neighborhood. Didnt live any where close to the school. So did not join didnt care . my parents took me out of public school most did. So the white schools became all black. I did the same with my kids when i could. Once the city schools started failing for my kids i moved them. Finally to wv. For high school. Baltimore like to have kids with special needs learning disabilities because they are paid more for those children. Do special ed . so its a reason to not help so much. This boy your talking about now. Can only stay in the system till 21 if he is deemed mentally retarded. At 18 he is pushed to leave. So i dought very much that he will get any more education. But his parents will sue snd have some money they split with lawyers. Nothing new.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Gayle in KY said:


> The high school I went to only took attendance in homeroom, which was 15 minutes at the start of each day. Once I was marked as being present, I'd get in my car and leave. I did that for 2 years, only showing up for tests that would be required to pass each class. I graduated with 1/4 credit extra. Mom never knew I wasn't there because I was there for attendance.


I did that - only once - left after attendance with a couple others, went to NYC for the St. Patrick's Day Parade then to see a horror movie. Came back to get things out of my locker when my home room teacher spied and me asked where I was - Smart mouth answer was "here, you saw me in home room".

As far as that kid and his Mom are concerned - I believe after 4 years, she knew. Who signed his report cards? I do believe teachers pass kids on though as it looks bad for them that they can't teach.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Gayle in KY said:


> The high school I went to only took attendance in homeroom, which was 15 minutes at the start of each day. Once I was marked as being present, I'd get in my car and leave. I did that for 2 years, only showing up for tests that would be required to pass each class. I graduated with 1/4 credit extra. Mom never knew I wasn't there because I was there for attendance.


One year my homeroom teacher was my 3rd period teacher. Hunting and fishing was off that year 🤣


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Seems there might be some issues with this school.





__





Explore Augusta Fells Savage Institute Of Visual Arts in Baltimore, MD


We're an independent nonprofit that provides parents with in-depth school quality information.




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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

I guess it is easy to put the blame on the school, but considering he finished at about the 50th percentile in his class, I think it is safe to say that it was near impossible for anybody to learn anything due to mass classroom upheaval. Try to teach anything when students, if they are there at all, are disrupting every minute of instruction. And the administration most likely allowed it since they probably were forced to do so. So the union-protected teacher just ignores it all and carries on as if all is well - do that or quit. This is a society problem, but I doubt it will be fixed given the current societal climate. Watch the movie "Lean on Me" to get a glimpse of what was probably going here.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I agree that parents could play a much larger role, but they aren’t the ones getting paid to teach! Teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies, they really should earn them.


How exactly would you suggest his teachers teach him when he doesn't show up?

"Teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies..." False.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

For quite some while it seems to me that the idea of a traditional family unit and it’s values have been under attack.

So one cannot be surprised when broken offspring come from broken homes, being raised by broken parents and going to broken schools run by broken teachers in a broken society with broken values.

My two cents.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Wolf mom said:


> I did that - only once - left after attendance with a couple others, went to NYC for the St. Patrick's Day Parade then to see a horror movie. Came back to get things out of my locker when my home room teacher spied and me asked where I was - Smart mouth answer was "here, you saw me in home room".
> 
> As far as that kid and his Mom are concerned - I believe after 4 years, she knew. Who signed his report cards? I do believe teachers pass kids on though as it looks bad for them that they can't teach.


It's not up to the teachers whether or not a kid repeats a grade. Parents have the final say in that. We can only recommend.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Parents. For child abandonment, even though they may have provided home and food.
> 
> School for not communicating with the parents for an extended period of time.


Don't assume that the school did not communicate with the parent. I have a student who is currently missing 80% of his scheduled sessions with me. I have called, emailed, sent texts and sent letters with no response. I call, text and email every time he does not show up when he is supposed to. 

There is no way that this kid hit high school and suddenly became an attendance problem. It is most likely that this was a problem for his entire school career.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

doc- said:


> If the kid only passed 3 classes in 4 yrs and ranked at the middle of his class, that doesn't say much for the rest of the class, much less the school and its teachers-- but they're still getting paid for not working during CoV shut-down and will still get their yearly seniority raises.
> 
> _Why_ didn't I go into teaching?.. _*Why*_ didn't I go into teaching?..I must've been stupid.


"...but they're still getting paid for not working during CoV shut-down..." Teachers are working, teaching virtually. How about you stop spreading the lie that teachers are getting paid and not working?

It's just more teacher bashing from someone who has no idea about the job.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's just more teacher bashing from someone who has no idea about the job.



By the time I was in the 4th grade I knew I was smarter than my teachers....They knew it when I was in the 3rd grade.

Each ONE of my medical textbooks contained more information than ALL the courses you took in four years of college. (And we only used texts as study summaries for all the stuff we really had to know.)

You have no idea how much you (and all teachers) DON'T know. You only have each other to compare yourselves to....You oughta review Plato's Parable of the Cave. (I'm sure you've read it, right?)

BTW- how come when they caught you cutting classes, they suspended you for three days? _ "Oh, No! Br'er Fox-- whatever you do, don't set me loose in that briar patch!_"-- Br'er Rabbit[/QUOTE]


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

doc- said:


> By the time I was in the 4th grade I knew I was smarter than my teachers....They knew it when I was in the 3rd grade.
> 
> Each ONE of my medical textbooks contained more information than ALL the courses you took in four years of college. (And we only used texts as study summaries for all the stuff we really had to know.)
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Gee, I can't imagine why people think doctors are arrogant.


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## Snowfan (Nov 6, 2011)

Evons hubby said:


> I agree that parents could play a much larger role, but they aren’t the ones getting paid to teach! Teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies, they really should earn them.


I don't know about where you live but, where I live, teachers are not overpaid. I've worked in schools in maintenance and as a janitor.
I don't know of any teacher who got in to it for the big bucks. None of them envisioned themselves buying a new Mecedes or BMW every other year or so.
Most of the teachers I know spend some of their earnings on school supplies for their students. Some partially pay for field trips.
Seems to me that if teachers were overpaid, they wouldn't have to find summer or weekend jobs. Some teachers who also coach or help with after school activities, put in some long days.
I am not a teacher. I wouldn't want to be a teacher. I'm also not saying all teachers are great or are saints. I think each teacher (or any professional in any trade or craft) needs to be evaluated or judged individually.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How exactly would you suggest his teachers teach him when he doesn't show up?
> 
> "Teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies..." False.


Use the time they are in school wisely. 
teachers make than double starting out in my state than I ever made on my best year. 
I got no ins, no retirement, no sick days, no bennys at all.
”teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies....” 100% TRUE


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Gee, I can't imagine why people think doctors are arrogant.
[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing they learn it from a teacher...,


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Gayle in KY said:


> The high school I went to only took attendance in homeroom, which was 15 minutes at the start of each day. Once I was marked as being present, I'd get in my car and leave.


I worked that the opposite way.

I'd skip homeroom, be marked absent. Then go in to the office after homeroom and tell them I was there. That kept me from racking up absences. Then I'd go do whatever I wanted for the day. I don't know how they never caught on.

I was the worst possible student starting in the 7th grade. 6th and below I loved school, did well tested off the chart. I discovered a lot of distractions in the 7th grade.

I will not go into details, but suffice to say my junior and high school years were wasted. I was always a voracious reader. I could read the book for whatever class and pass the class, while I slept through most of them.

Late in my senior year I asked myself what came next. I picked up a college catalog, saw a course called COBOL. How hard could that be?

I got a degree in Computer Science in 1980, and the market for that skill was just starting to pop. I rode that wave, and I was a pretty good surfer.

My parents did not care about my education. My teachers did not care about my education. For many years I did not care about my education. Then one day I did. It was hard. I remember writing my Mother a post card from college telling her I did not think I would make it. I did not know how to study. Luckily I hooked up with a study group of fellow CS students and I picked up good study habits pretty fast.

I put everything onto the individual. It comes from what is, or is not, inside the individual.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Snowfan said:


> I don't know about where you live but, where I live, teachers are not overpaid. I've worked in schools in maintenance and as a janitor.
> I don't know of any teacher who got in to it for the big bucks. None of them envisioned themselves buying a new Mecedes or BMW every other year or so.
> Most of the teachers I know spend some of their earnings on school supplies for their students. Some partially pay for field trips.
> Seems to me that if teachers were overpaid, they wouldn't have to find summer or weekend jobs. Some teachers who also coach or help with after school activities, put in some long days.
> I am not a teacher. I wouldn't want to be a teacher. I'm also not saying all teachers are great or are saints. I think each teacher (or any professional in any trade or craft) needs to be evaluated or judged individually.


I live in Kentucky and am one of those taxpayers who pay our teachers. Years ago when I was top salesman in my office I made a hair over 16k year. Teachers in my state at that time were starting at over 38k. I put in 365 days a year, 12 and 14 hours most days. Teachers worked 170 days a year. I worked with no ins benefits, paid for my own auto expenses, and zero retirement. Driving was an essential part of my job putting 25 30 thousand miles a year on my cars. It really grinds my gears when I hear them whining about how they are starving and overworked.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Gee, I can't imagine why people think doctors are arrogant.


Don't you know how smart you are? Knowing you are smart does not make you arrogant, it makes you self aware.

Acting like a know-it-all makes you arrogant


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I live in Kentucky and am one of those taxpayers who pay our teachers. Years ago when I was top salesman in my office I made a hair over 16k year. Teachers in my state at that time were starting at over 38k. I put in 365 days a year, 12 and 14 hours most days. Teachers worked 170 days a year. I worked with no ins benefits, paid for my own auto expenses, and zero retirement. Driving was an essential part of my job putting 25 30 thousand miles a year on my cars. It really grinds my gears when I hear them whining about how they are starving and overworked.


"Teachers worked 170 days a year". Teachers only get paid for the days they work.

"I made a hair over 16K". Maybe you should have gotten a better, more useful degree.

"I worked with no ins benefits...zero retirement." Teachers pay into both their insurance and retirement.

Teachers, nationwide make about 7% less than the average national salary. 

The only one I hear whining about salaries is you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Acting like a know-it-all makes you arrogant


You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.


Are you going to sink this post?

Many of us have seen how you will insist on saying the same SJ crap repeatedly, ad nauseum, never stopping until the post gets bounced or deleted.

STOP IT


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I saw this article about this kid. First think I thought when I read it was how could the mother not know that kid was late of absent so often. AND, I also wondered how she could look at his report card and not see he was failing. She blames the school, but I believe it starts at home. If the parents don't take an active role in their child's education, then your child will live up to the expectation that education isn't important.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Are you going to sink this post?
> 
> Many of us have seen how you will insist on saying the same SJ crap repeatedly, ad nauseum, never stopping until the post gets bounced or deleted.
> 
> STOP IT


The one attempting to sink the thread is you. I realize you want this site to be an echo chamber that only reflects your thoughts and opinions but GET OVER IT. 

I will post what I want, when I want on whatever thread I want. If you don't like it, buy the site and you can make the rules.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> "
> 
> Teachers, nationwide make about 7% less than the average national salary.


But it's a PART TIME JOB. Full is 40h/w, 50 w/yr = 2000hrs/yr
Teachers- 180 d/y and 6 h/d = 1080 hrs/yr...and they can retire after only 30 yrs on the job.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Teachers worked 170 days a year". Teachers only get paid for the days they work.
> 
> "I made a hair over 16K". Maybe you should have gotten a better, more useful degree.
> 
> ...


Any teacher that was not smart enough to understand their income and benefits at the time they took the job deserve at best what they get. They can always move on to another job.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Teachers worked 170 days a year". Teachers only get paid for the days they work.
> 
> "I made a hair over 16K". Maybe you should have gotten a better, more useful degree.
> 
> ...


So they make way more per hour spent on the job..... note I did not use the word work..
im quite content with the money I made, as well as my lot in life.
paid into? I paid 100% of mine.
maybe teachers should have gotten a more useful degree.
only because I’m expected to pay outrageous salaries to teachers who don’t produce.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

When I started teaching, base pay for a first year teacher with a Bachelor's was $6000 a year. Divided into 12 paychecks, that comes to $500 a month. I worked on a 12 month contract and had a Masters degree. I got 1200 a year for the extra 2 months and an additional $600 for the Masters. I had 2 weeks vacation time in the summer, for which I wasn't paid and I paid all my insurance. Plus I used my personal vehicle in the job. I did have a travel allowance which helped with the vehicle expenses.
I retired after 31 years, with health issues. I was working on a 180 day contract then. I lost a big chunk of retirement in a divorce. I can draw just enough SS to cover my Medicare and put $27 in the bank each month. I paid in enough to draw more SS but I am limited to the amt. because of my retirement income. There were some years I broke $50,000 total income, but that included doing other things than teaching. I spent many nights working, at home and at school. I spent many weekends at school working.
The hours you quoted are accurate for a burger flipper, maybe,, with a part time job. One that goes home and forgets about work when not at work, that is not what a teacher does.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was a dedicated teacher. I spent MANY hours on school related work outside of the school day.

Summer days were spent on classes, training, and prep for the next year.

I figured that I made about $5 an hour.

Yes, there are lazy teachers. I was not one of those.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Snowfan said:


> I don't know about where you live but, where I live, teachers are not overpaid. I've worked in schools in maintenance and as a janitor.
> I don't know of any teacher who got in to it for the big bucks. None of them envisioned themselves buying a new Mecedes or BMW every other year or so.
> Most of the teachers I know spend some of their earnings on school supplies for their students. Some partially pay for field trips.
> Seems to me that if teachers were overpaid, they wouldn't have to find summer or weekend jobs. Some teachers who also coach or help with after school activities, put in some long days.
> I am not a teacher. I wouldn't want to be a teacher. I'm also not saying all teachers are great or are saints. I think each teacher (or any professional in any trade or craft) needs to be evaluated or judged individually.


Most teaches work 24/7.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

doc- said:


> But it's a PART TIME JOB. Full is 40h/w, 50 w/yr = 2000hrs/yr
> Teachers- 180 d/y and 6 h/d = 1080 hrs/yr...and they can retire after only 30 yrs on the job.


BS. 
If you think it's such a cushy job, step up and do it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> BS.
> If you think it's such a cushy job, step up and do it.


Have you ever worked for your living, or just been a teacher?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am sorry no one taught you manners.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Have you ever worked for your living, or just been a teacher?


Have you ever been a decent human being or just the creature that you are now?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This came up on Instagram. Maybe Evon’s Hubby never had a teacher like this.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This came up on Instagram. Maybe Evon’s Hubby never had a teacher like this.
> View attachment 94407


Apparently not. 

Guess you and I both missed the part in the manual where we weren't supposed to do anything but put our feet up on the desk and eat bonbons. 

Darn, since teaching isn't work, I hope I don't get in trouble for getting up this morning and spending a couple hours making Pear Deck lessons.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This came up on Instagram. Maybe Evon’s Hubby never had a teacher like this.
> View attachment 94407


Nope, my teachers expected all of us to do our homework or take the f. No freebie grades due to sob stories. They were teaching us to be adults as well as our cyphers.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I tried to take a nap after reading your post slamming teachers, Evon’s Hubby. That didn’t work.

I was very hurt by what you said. So, here I am again, replying to you to process my reaction by asking a few questions.

Do you believe that there are ANY teachers worthy of respect?

Do you think that you were harmed by your teachers?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I appreciate all the teachers in my life!!! I gave them a hard time because I was thinking a different direction. I had other teachers on the same path as mine. Some aren't good at the higher learning in book sense.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

One of the my son’s teachers drove my husband 90 miles into Houston for all of his post kidney transplant doctor’s visits for a couple of month.


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## Bront (Jan 26, 2021)

For scholastic reviews I believe I'd choose a news outlet with at least the same intelligence

as the articles subject...Rather than one that shifts opinion and numbers around to suit its readers....


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I believe yesterday's teachers are not today's teachers.



SLFarmMI said:


> Have you ever been a decent human being or just the creature that you are now?


The teachers I knew would never have said nor even thought of such a crude statement.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Falling on the floor laughing. Teachers are humans, and just as diverse as ANY group.

We had a female teacher who told the WORST nasty jokes in the teachers’ lounge that I have EVER heard.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Wolf mom said:


> I believe yesterday's teachers are not today's teachers.
> 
> 
> 
> The teachers I knew would never have said nor even thought of such a crude statement.


So the teachers that you knew would be fine with being insulted and being told that what they did for a profession was not work as well as the other insults that the teacher bashers on this thread have offered up? My response to the insult was rather tame.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Falling on the floor laughing. Teachers are humans, and just as diverse as ANY group.
> 
> We had a female teacher who told the WORST nasty jokes in the teachers’ lounge that I have EVER heard.


Now, Alice, you know you're not allowed to tell the reality of teachers and teaching here. Didn't you get the memo?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So the teachers that you knew would be fine with being insulted and being told that what they did for a profession was not work as well as the other insults that the teacher bashers on this thread have offered up? My response to the insult was rather tame.


NO, I think they would have first, not taken it personally which you seem to do with most everything and second, they'd rise above the fray rather than jump in and say things in a way that would continue it. If something needed to be said, they'd find ways to say it without being argumentative and crass.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Now, Alice, you know you're not allowed to tell the reality of teachers and teaching here. Didn't you get the memo?


Even if they aren't in a teachers' union or are _gasp_ a teacher not teaching/paid at public schools...

Many in the more polite sections of this forum are unfamiliar with your stance on teachers that don't hold so closely to your "values" on education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Wolf mom said:


> NO, I think they would have first, not taken it personally which you seem to do with most everything and second, they'd rise above the fray rather than jump in and say things in a way that would continue it. If something needed to be said, they'd find ways to say it without being argumentative and crass.


First, there was nothing crass about what I said.

Second, anyone who cares about what they do would definitely take the constant bashing of their profession personally.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> First, there was nothing crass about what I said.
> 
> Second, anyone who cares about what they do would definitely take the constant bashing of their profession personally.


You are so angry, so defensive, so unwilling to consider anything said other than agreeing with your beliefs. When you mature, hopefully you'll see your behavior and learn to say things in a more mature, less argumentative way.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Wolf mom said:


> You are so angry, so defensive, so unwilling to consider anything said other than agreeing with your beliefs. When you mature, hopefully you'll see your behavior and learn to say things in a more mature, less argumentative way.


When you mature, hopefully you'll learn to be less condescending. You also may want to direct that first sentiment to the posters who want this site to be a conservative echo chamber with no dissenting opinion allowed.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I wish I could add more but I started a thread about I might be an idiot 😃 . Just my school of hard knocks...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Have you ever been a decent human being or just the creature that you are now?


I’m a fine decent person, just wondering if had any knowledge of the workplace versus classroom? A lot of folks like to have something To compare with. You have stated that myself and others have no knowledge of what we speak, wondering if you do.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Obviously not one of Evon’s Hubby’s teachers


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Dear Evon’s Hubby,
Yes, I had and have other job experience. I worked in the shoe department of a Gibson’s Store back in the days before Wal Mart and Target. I worked in the shipping department of a chemical company.

I was the secretary for a small oilfield consulting corporation for decades, while I was going back to college and teaching.

You appear very angry at teachers. You stereotype them in the same way that some people stereotype racial minority groups.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I tried to take a nap after reading your post slamming teachers, Evon’s Hubby. That didn’t work.
> 
> I was very hurt by what you said. So, here I am again, replying to you to process my reaction by asking a few questions.
> 
> ...


I’m quite certain there are many good teachers out there. I knew many when I was going to school. My complaint is with those far more worried about feathering their own nest at the expense of students and tax payers. I was never harmed by any of my teachers, but I have seen it in today’s public schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m a fine decent person, just wondering if had any knowledge of the workplace versus classroom? A lot of folks like to have something To compare with. You have stated that myself and others have no knowledge of what we speak, wondering if you do.


I have plenty of experience in jobs outside of teaching including jobs in construction, as a site geologist, retail, in a lab and in janitorial work to name a few. How many jobs in the classroom have you had?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> One of the my son’s teachers drove my husband 90 miles into Houston for all of his post kidney transplant doctor’s visits for a couple of month.


Along those lines I drove a veteran and his wife to ft Knox numerous times while he was undoing cancer treatments. Seemed the least I could.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No classroom teacher EVER feathered a nest on a teacher’s salary.

They may have traded in their cars every three years and always had a car payment, but I don’t count that as feathering.

I purchased a van after teaching one year, and paid it off in one year. Instead of buying vehicles, I bought distressed houses, fixed them up, and turned them into rental property. I did as much of the work myself as possible. I did all my own bookkeeping.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I have plenty of experience in jobs outside of teaching including jobs in construction, as a site geologist, retail, in a lab and in janitorial work to name a few. How many jobs in the classroom have you had?


Numerous, but none that I got paid for.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> No classroom teacher EVER feathered a nest on a teacher’s salary.
> 
> They may have traded in their cars every three years and always had a car payment, but I don’t count that as feathering.
> 
> I purchased a van after teaching one year, and paid it off in one year. Instead of buying vehicles, I bought distressed houses, fixed them up, and turned them into rental property. I did as much of the work myself as possible. I did all my own bookkeeping.


Commendable!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Numerous, but none that I got paid for.


Nice evasion. You've never been a classroom teacher yet you appear to think that you should be able to tell those who do the job how they should do it and dismiss the opinions of those who actually do the job.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

One year, a retired Navy fellow helped me renovate a house that is now my office. A bunch of the senior boys started coming to help, and I asked the principal if they could work on the job instead of their Phys Ed class and Ag class in the afternoon. He agreed.

Most of them had no construction experience at the start. By the end, they could install windows, Hardy siding, caulk, paint, etc., AND to clean up the worksite at the end of the day. 

Several of my former students have located me on Facebook, and we are now friends.

I am very sorry that your teachers were less supportive than they could have been.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

SLFarmMI,
Actually, he didn’t tell teachers how to do their jobs, he ridiculed and mocked and denigrated a whole group of professionals based on limited personal experience.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> No classroom teacher EVER feathered a nest on a teacher’s salary.
> 
> They may have traded in their cars every three years and always had a car payment, but I don’t count that as feathering.
> 
> I purchased a van after teaching one year, and paid it off in one year. Instead of buying vehicles, I bought distressed houses, fixed them up, and turned them into rental property. I did as much of the work myself as possible. I did all my own bookkeeping.


Come on, don't you know we're all getting rich on a teacher's salary? It seems that he thinks anything above what would qualify a teacher for food stamps is just too much salary. I bought a new van in 2002 and bought my next car about a month ago. Haven't been on a vacation in about 8 years. Hmm, where's all this "feathering" I'm supposed to be doing on my massive salary?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> SLFarmMI,
> Actually, he didn’t tell teachers how to do their jobs, he ridiculed and mocked and denigrated a whole group of professionals based on limited personal experience.


Not in this thread but he has in others.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Oh. Luckily I missed that.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Nice evasion. You've never been a classroom teacher yet you appear to think that you should be able to tell those who do the job how they should do it and dismiss the opinions of those who actually do the job.


You need to clean your Chrystal ball Or whatever you are using to find out what my experience includes.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Oh. Luckily I missed that.


I wouldn’t put much stock in that, I have zero memory of ever telling anyone how to do their job, teachers nor anyone else.that’s not my style. Never has been.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Come on, don't you know we're all getting rich on a teacher's salary? It seems that he thinks anything above what would qualify a teacher for food stamps is just too much salary. I bought a new van in 2002 and bought my next car about a month ago. Haven't been on a vacation in about 8 years. Hmm, where's all this "feathering" I'm supposed to be doing on my massive salary?


I’ve no way of knowing what you’ve done with the taxpayers money you’ve squeezed out of the system, you could have invested it, stuffed in your mattress, frittered it all away on lotto tickets and booze. What I do know (by your posts here) is that you’ve made a tremendous amount more than many who pay your wages do.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ok. So you simply mocked, ridiculed, belittled, and denigrated.

I have another couple of questions. 

Do you get pleasure from striking out at a whole group of people that you only know a tiny percentage of?
What purpose does this behavior serve in your life?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’ve no way of knowing what you’ve done with the taxpayers money you’ve squeezed out of the system, you could have invested it, stuffed in your mattress, frittered it all away on lotto tickets and booze. What I do know (by your posts here) is that you’ve made a tremendous amount more than many who pay your wages do.


So what? Would it make you feel better if teachers made so little that they qualify for food stamps?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I didn’t mock, ridicule, belittle or denigrate the whole group. My comments were directed only at those teachers who fail our children so miserably. I take no pleasure in hurting anyone undeservedly. I’m truly sorry if you thought I was directing my comments to the good teachers out there.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So what? Would it make you feel better if teachers made so little that they qualify for food stamps?


Nope, I’d feel better if our students got the education they deserve and we the taxpayers pay for.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Perhaps there is another income in her family, or she is very frugal, or she inherited money. Your attacks are shameful.

You used a shotgun with an open choke to attack a few flies.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Perhaps there is another income in her family, or she is very frugal, or she inherited money. Your attacks are shameful.
> 
> You used a shotgun with an open choke to attack a few flies.


I’m referring only to the salary she has disclosed in the past. 
a 12 gauge shotgun is a delightful way to dispatch flies! Now you see them, boom, you don’t!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Perhaps there is another income in her family, or she is very frugal, or she inherited money. Your attacks are shameful.
> 
> You used a shotgun with an open choke to attack a few flies.


Apparently, in his mind, since I work in a district that is about 95% below the poverty line, I should work for poverty wages.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m referring only to the salary she has disclosed in the past.
> a 12 gauge shotgun is a delightful way to dispatch flies! Now you see them, boom, you don’t!


I have never disclosed my salary. Nor would I because it is none of your business.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Apparently, in his mind, since I work in a district that is about 95% below the poverty line, I should work for poverty wages.


You’d exploit the poor in order to live above their means?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I have never disclosed my salary. Nor would I because it is none of your business.


Not directly, but google is a click away


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You’d exploit the poor in order to live above their means?


Following your logic, if I work in a wealthy district filled with parents who are doctors and lawyers, I should make a salary equivalent to theirs.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Alrighty then. Evidence is (by your post, E’s hubby), that you are simply mean spirited.

Good day to you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Alrighty then. Evidence is (by your post, E’s hubby), that you are simply mean spirited.
> 
> Good day to you.


I could think of a few more adjectives but "mean spirited" does the job.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Following your logic, if I work in a wealthy district filled with parents who are doctors and lawyers, I should make a salary equivalent to theirs.


Not my logic, I merely posed a question.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I could think of a few more adjectives but "mean spirited" does the job.


I’m sure you could, but “proponent of infanticide” is not among them. Can you say the same?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m sure you could, but “proponent of infanticide” is not among them. Can you say the same?


Yes, I can but, by all means, keep perpetuating your ignorance.

Your latest comment rates right up there with your "at least Hitler had hooked noses to look for" remark.

Shows exactly what kind of person you are and it is nothing good.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, I can but, by all means, keep perpetuating your ignorance.
> 
> Your latest comment rates right up there with your "at least Hitler had hooked noses to look for" remark.
> 
> Shows exactly what kind of person you are and it is nothing good.


So! You’ve come around to the better side finally! I’d just about given up all hope!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So! You’ve come around to the better side finally! I’d just about given up all hope!


I've always been on the better side which is that women should be the ones make their own choices. Glad that you finally recognize it as the better side.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I've always been on the better side which is that women should be the ones make their own choices. Glad that you finally recognize it as the better side.


Awwww so you are still a proponent of infanticide.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

poppy said:


> Seems to be plenty of blame on both sides.


The blame lies with the political party that is married to the teachers unions. The same political party that has had unilateral control over Baltimore politics for generations, and of almost every school/college for generations. This same political party now spends more time indoctrinating kids in SJW crap than teaching them how to read, write, or basic mathmatics.



georger said:


> Back in my youth the teacher was always right


That was back when the teacher understood the differences between boys and girls was more than "I feel like I'm a girl!"



MichaelZ said:


> Watch the movie "Lean on Me" to get a glimpse of what was probably going here.


"Waiting for Superman" is more poignant to the public school disaster we have.



georger said:


> So one cannot be surprised when broken offspring come from broken homes, being raised by broken parents and going to broken schools run by broken teachers in a broken society with broken values.


This is what happens when one political party, married to the teachers unions, remove the father from the home and replace him with a government provider.



SLFarmMI said:


> It's not up to the teachers whether or not a kid repeats a grade. Parents have the final say in that. We can only recommend.


This is because the teacher union controlled school boards let it happen. If the school boards allowed schools to actually FAIL little Johnny for not being able to read, and not let him get out of 9th grade without being able to complete 9th grade work, we would have a revolution of parents requiring schools to actually TEACH little Jonny to read.

Instead school boards, hand-in-hand with the teachers unions, have placed rules like "We can only suggest to Johnny's parents that he retake Algebra I, but we can't stop his parents from putting him in Algebra 2 despite him not understanding basic arithmetic." This is simply a cop-out by the teachers union controlled school boards to blame the parents instead of focusing on the problem of the schools they have run into the ground.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Awwww so you are still a proponent of infanticide.


Awww, so you are still a proponent of misogyny. And bigotry too apparently based on your "hooked noses" comment.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Not all states have teachers unions.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's just more teacher bashing from someone who has no idea about the job.


One doesn't have to "know the job" to reap the benefits, or the adverse results of, someone else doing the job.

There is a huge problem with education in our country. HUGE problem. The OP just pointed out one example of this. 

You can ignore it, but you would be wrong to do so. Just as wrong as those who attack all teachers for the failures of the system.

The foundation of the problem lays with those who control the system, which is a political party and the beliefs/policies they push.



Snowfan said:


> I don't know about where you live but, where I live, teachers are not overpaid.


This widely varies. Often in large cities (almost all run for generations by a single political party) they make pretty darn good money. Of course we shouldn't just look at average teacher salary there, but the bloated salary of the bloated numbers of school administrators as well. And the union representatives, etc.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> No classroom teacher EVER feathered a nest on a teacher’s salary.


Perhaps not, but lots of administrators/union reps certainly have.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Not all states have teachers unions.


Which state does not have teachers unions? If there is such a state, then those teachers would simply belong to one of the national teachers unions (which I believe have branches in every state). I would wager that 99% of school boards in the nations have majority of members who were "endorsed" by the teachers unions.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> Which state does not have teachers unions? If there is such a state, then those teachers would simply belong to one of the national teachers unions (which I believe have branches in every state). I would wager that 99% of school boards in the nations have majority of members who were "endorsed" by the teachers unions.


You would be wrong. There are several states that have banned collective bargaining rights for teachers so it wouldn't matter if the teachers belonged to a union or not. They are not allowed to bargain for wages, benefits or working conditions. 

The teachers' union doesn't have the power you seem to think they have.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> You would be wrong. There are several states that have banned collective bargaining rights for teachers so it wouldn't matter if the teachers belonged to a union or not. They are not allowed to bargain for wages, benefits or working conditions.
> 
> The teachers' union doesn't have the power you seem to think they have.


Teachers unions figuratively owning school boards have nothing to do with collective bargaining rights. It is more about the MASSIVE AMOUNT OF MONEY spent by the teachers unions to elect pro-teacher union politicians to school boards and other elected offices.

The teachers unions are not all powerful. But they are absolutely married to one political party, and that gives them ENORMOUS power, but not omnipotence. Occasionally voters have enough of them ruining their schools and vote for politicians who allow for expansion of school choice.

But then that very powerful political party steps in and crushes the parent's right to choose what school is best for their children. After all, this American political party thinks the government knows better than you on everything, and is there to help you save yourself from you.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> You would be wrong


If anyone thinks I'm wrong then I challenge you to look up your local school board members and how many of them were endorsed by the teachers unions. The vast, vast, vast majority of members of every school board across the country are members who were endorsed by the teachers unions.

And we wonder why we can't fix the schools....


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Awww, so you are still a proponent of misogyny. And bigotry too apparently based on your "hooked noses" comment.


Bwaaahahaha I’ve never advocated misogyny nor bigotry ever! Nice try but no cigar.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Most teachers (pre-covid) earn less than $1.00 per hour for each child in their care during classroom hours. The figure is easy to check for your own district. The benefits such as insurance and sick days don't bring that salary up to the current standard rate for a babysitter. Then a majority of teachers spend time outside school hours watching students get onto or off the busses, in conferences with parents, grading papers, preparing study material, etc. 

A good number of teachers do work weekend or summer jobs (summer jobs are not easy to work in districts with year-round school) to supplement their salaries and to earn credit toward social security. I don't know how much a retired teacher gets in retirement benefits but those may be subject to renegotiation by the union.

As for the original story; Mom works 3 jobs. I don't know how much time she spent looking over paperwork or trying to contact teachers but surely she had to have seen a report card or two. Then the fact that this boy ranked in the middle of his class says there is something very wrong with the school.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> Most teachers (pre-covid) earn less than $1.00 per hour for each child in their care during classroom hours. The figure is easy to check for your own district. The benefits such as insurance and sick days don't bring that salary up to the current standard rate for a babysitter. Then a majority of teachers spend time outside school hours watching students get onto or off the busses, in conferences with parents, grading papers, preparing study material, etc.
> 
> A good number of teachers do work weekend or summer jobs (summer jobs are not easy to work in districts with year-round school) to supplement their salaries and to earn credit toward social security. I don't know how much a retired teacher gets in retirement benefits but those may be subject to renegotiation by the union.
> 
> As for the original story; Mom works 3 jobs. I don't know how much time she spent looking over paperwork or trying to contact teachers but surely she had to have seen a report card or two. Then the fact that this boy ranked in the middle of his class says there is something very wrong with the school.


I want to pay good teachers good money. I want to pay GREAT teachers GREAT money.

$1/hour/child is pretty good money if you have 30 kids in your classes. That's about what my RN wife makes taking care of critically ill patients in the ICU.

How much do the administrators, the vice principals for equality, and the vice principals for social justice get paid? 

Mom obviously failed, but in today's world it is victim shaming to point that out. In reality, political decisions have driven social engineering to remove the role of the father in the household. Households don't need fathers to provide for the family (the gov'ment will do that, but only so much), so we have less fathers in the households. And then we set up an overly adversarial family courts system that "awards" custody to mothers 89% of the time (which includes the approximately 6% of time that mothers just walk away/disappear/willing give up custody). 

But do the school systems have no blame in advancing a student to the next level who cannot perform basic tasks? 

Obviously they do as well....but blaming the school system just isn't politically palatable.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nope. Texas doesn’t have teachers UNIONS. Texas teachers do not belong to national unions. This is an At Will employment state.

There are two teacher associations, but they do not have bargaining power. They provide liability insurance and other benefits.

In the districts that I have experience with, the teachers associations have NOTHING TO DO WITH the board, elections, or anything else at the local level.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nope. Texas doesn’t have teachers UNIONS. Texas teachers do not belong to national unions. This is an At Will employment state.
> 
> There are two teacher associations, but they do not have bargaining power. They provide liability insurance and other benefits.


Teachers unions have more than bargaining power. They have MASSIVE amounts of money that they use to control the processes through endorsing (buying) candidates/members of school boards and other political positions. 

Just because Texas teacher "associations" don't have bargaining power doesn't mean they don't own the school boards.

A quick google search shows teachers "associations" in Texas like "Education Austin", "Brazosport Federation of Teachers", "Texas Classroom Teachers Association", and MANY others.

Going to the Texas Classroom Teachers Association website, they link to the TexasTeachersVote.org site, where they have their "find your candidate" tab. All you have to do is put in our zip code and they will tell you which politician/school board member they want you to vote for.

Yeah, it's not a collective bargaining teachers union, but it still has the political clout of a traditional union.

Teachers unions OWN school boards. THAT'S a major part of the problem.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nope. Not here in my county. Not in the neighboring county where I worked. Maybe in large metropolitan areas.

If the parents and taxpayers don’t care enough to be involved in education in order to address your concerns, then pontificating online surely will not accomplish anything.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nope. Not here in my county. Not in the neighboring county where I worked. Maybe in large metropolitan areas. If the parents and taxpayers don’t care enough to be involved in education in order to address your concerns, then pontificating online surely will not accomplish anything.


Nope what? Your school board members were not endorsed by the teachers associations? I am not (and would never) call you a liar, but if this is what you are saying I would suggest you have not researched it enough. Although, you are in Texas, and some areas of Texas might be different enough to buck the trend.

I just randomly googled "remote school district in Texas" and came up with Louise ISD. Have no idea where that is at.

Going to the Louis ISD website and clicking on the school board comes up with their names (and pictures).

Google their names and add "running for Louise school board"....and you get a small newspaper that wants money for a year subscription...........no further information is readily available.

I've done this exercise in the past, before many small town newspapers started to require subscriptions, and found that almost every school board member EVERYWHERE was endorsed by the teachers unions/associations.

I agree with parents/taxpayers being more involved. Of course, most parents are unable to change the "system" installed by the union (association) controlled school boards, and most people aren't taxpayers.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

School teachers are under-paid? D-181's Highest Paid Teachers And Administrators | Hinsdale, IL Patch


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

doc- said:


> School teachers are under-paid? D-181's Highest Paid Teachers And Administrators | Hinsdale, IL Patch


40% of administrators making >$100K/year. Superintendent making $240K/year. The previous "superintendent of business services" retired after making $385K/year. I wonder how much her retirement is every year. I'm guessing north of $200k/year, EVERY YEAR FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE....all at the expense of the taxpayers of Illinois.

I saw almost 40 patients in the ED over the past 2 days. We saved several lives, had one terrible outcome, and a few hours ago I had to tell a previously healthy guy he probably only had a few weeks to live.....and I don't make that much a year. But the "superintent of business services" is going to bring home >$200K/year for the rest of her life.

Oh, but WAIT, THERE'S MORE.

The current administration sitting in the Oval Office wants to spread this pain. Since Illinois has proven unable to manage their own massive tax monies, the current administration wants to use the CoVID "EMERGENCY as a reason to bail out poorly run states like Illinois.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Back to the OP - let's raise taxes and give these failing schools more money so they can fix the problem!

Oh, wait...they are already spending >$17k/student!









How much do Baltimore taxpayers spend per student?


Baltimore City Public Schools spend about $17,000 in taxpayer funds per student.




www.foxnews.com


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I taught in Louise, and I know everyone on the board. One member is a former student.

I wrote about my experience. You googled. You didn’t learn anything that validated your claims

You might want to reconsider even HINTING that you think someone is a liar.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

If I hire a professional to fix a leaky roof and the next time it rains my roof still leaks.... is it my fault? The roofs fault or the carpenters fault?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

This horse has been drug down the road before.

*Unions good, private schools bad/corrupt, parents absent, teachers underpaid and underappreciated, system needs more money. Parents shouldn't be allowed to remove their kids from the system because that would weaken the system.

or

*Unions corrupt, school boards weak and influenced, no teacher accountability, kids are treated like chocolates on a conveyor belt during the I Love Lucy episode and money firehosed over problems while complaining there isn't enough money.
Parents can't get their kids out of the system because that would weaken the system.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Dear Evon’s Hubby,
> Yes, I had and have other job experience. I worked in the shoe department of a Gibson’s Store back in the days before Wal Mart and Target. I worked in the shipping department of a chemical company.
> 
> I was the secretary for a small oilfield consulting corporation for decades, while I was going back to college and teaching.
> ...


Hell.

You should hear the way he stereotypes racial minority groups.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> You also may want to direct that first sentiment to the posters who want this site to be a conservative echo chamber with no dissenting opinion allowed.


You say things like that all the time, but I must have missed all the calls to have anyone who isn’t conservative banned or kicked out of threads. Can you quote some posts, or is this just another one of your now-famous strawmen?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If a jury chooses to issue a guilty verdict is that also a guilty echo chamber?
Sometimes a position is lightly supported because the position is well, flawed.


----------



## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

Gee, I can't imagine why people think doctors are arrogant.
[/QUOTE]

Do you know the difference between doctors and god? God doesn't think he's a doctor.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

colourfastt said:


> Gee, I can't imagine why people think doctors are arrogant.


Do you know the difference between doctors and god? God doesn't think he's a doctor.
[/QUOTE]

Ever sat in a meeting with a teacher and watched their eyes and felt like you were taking up their time?
Ever tried to speak with your doctor about a health issue and felt they were ready to respond before you finished?

There are people who should not be in the professions they are in. Maybe in the beginning but time changes everything, or it is supposed to. Education seems to be the exception.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I taught in Louise, and I know everyone on the board. One member is a former student.


That's funny. I just randomly googled "rural school district in Texas" and Louise came up, had no idea it would be so close to home.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> I wrote about my experience. You googled. You didn’t learn anything that validated your claims


Correct. I was trying to quickly find another data point (random rural school district in the arguably most conservative state) to share, but was foiled by a paywall.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> You might want to reconsider even HINTING that you think someone is a liar.


I wrote that poorly, please accept my apologies. I was trying to SPECIFICALLY say that I would NOT call you a liar. First, it's rude and sets a poor standard for discussions. More importantly, I have probably read a thousand of your posts and have always found you to be insightful and respectful to everyone, especially those who you disagree with. From this, I WOULD NEVER call you a liar.

I hope I articulated this better this time.

I think my original point stands though, the vast majority of school board members across the country got elected because of teacher union/association support. Apparently not in the extremely rural part of our most conservative state, but in virtually every other school district this is true.




Evons hubby said:


> f I hire a professional to fix a leaky roof and the next time it rains my roof still leaks.... is it my fault? The roofs fault or the carpenters fault?


If the roofing union is married to the political party of big government this would be declared a "crisis" that needs massive government intervention to prevent another catastrophe like this! Obviously the roofers lack adequate resources to provide good roofs to not only your house, but to EVERY HOUSE. And there are MILLIONS OF CHILDREN living in houses with leaky roofs, putting these children at EXTREME risk of death due to mold spores, and there have been reports of ROOFS COLLAPSING! This is a CRISIS that needs addressed by providing adequate funding to roofers. We can do this by taxing EVERY HOMEOWNER to appropriately fund roofers to ensure every roof is safe! And of course, we have to make sure that the roofers themselves are well taken care of, so we will divert a lot of that tax money to the roofers unions (who is, of course, married to the political party of big government who just doubled homeowner taxes) to represent the roofers. Next thing you know, we will have roofing union heads making $300K as they attend political fundraisers.....


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Hell.
> 
> You should hear the way he stereotypes racial minority groups.


You still have your panties in wad over your misinterpretation of a comment I made about hitlers stereotyping? Get over it already!


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You still have your panties in wad over your misinterpretation of a comment I made about hitlers stereotyping? Get over it already!


He didn't misinterpret the comment you made. Not in the slightest. It was inappropriate. It was bigoted. Own it.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> He didn't misinterpret the comment you made. Not in the slightest. It was inappropriate. It was bigoted. Own it.


Hitler was indeed inappropriate as well as bigoted. I cannot would not argue that. Pointing out his bigotry, in your mind, makes me a bigot? For what it’s worth your buddies have slaughtered far more innocents right here in our country than hitler did during his reign of terror. Thirty some odd million and counting! Do you think that’s appropriate?


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> He didn't misinterpret the comment you made. Not in the slightest. It was inappropriate. It was bigoted. Own it.


I dont know, nor care, what comment was made, but....

If he says his message was misinterpreted, maybe you could take that at face value.

I would hate for Alice to continue thinking I hinted they had lied. That was the message Alice received, but certainly not my intent.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> I dont know, nor care, what comment was made, but....
> 
> If he says his message was misinterpreted, maybe you could take that at face value.
> 
> I would hate for Alice to continue thinking I hinted they had lied. That was the message Alice received, but certainly not my intent.


I understand completely, I have the utmost respect for Alice myself. I’ll not hold my breath waiting for slfarm to take anything at face value however.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Hitler was indeed inappropriate as well as bigoted. I cannot would not argue that. Pointing out his bigotry, in your mind, makes me a bigot? For what it’s worth your buddies have slaughtered far more innocents right here in our country than hitler did during his reign of terror. Thirty some odd million and counting! Do you think that’s appropriate?


Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the comment you posted was inappropriate and bigoted? You could even have gone with "Sorry, I phrased that poorly. What I meant was...". But you didn't. You continue to defend the comment you made.

For what it's worth, the rest of your comment is worth nothing. And a woman having the right to make her own choices, even if you don't like them, is completely appropriate.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The government can authorize vaccines with no guarantee or liability.
The government can allow social media to censor and control media narratives, self police themselves and with no liability.
US government run education can demand more money while delivering poorer results with no guarantee or liability.
One word in each of those three sentences is a dot that connects.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the comment you posted was inappropriate and bigoted? You could even have gone with "Sorry, I phrased that poorly. What I meant was...". But you didn't. You continue to defend the comment you made.
> 
> For what it's worth, the rest of your comment is worth nothing. And a woman having the right to make her own choices, even if you don't like them, is completely appropriate.


You seem to struggle with your own ability to admit you work in a failed system cheating parents and children of their future. Owning that is the first step to recovery.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> I dont know, nor care, what comment was made, but....
> 
> If he says his message was misinterpreted, maybe you could take that at face value.
> 
> I would hate for Alice to continue thinking I hinted they had lied. That was the message Alice received, but certainly not my intent.


How about because I was in that thread that is being referenced. I read the comment he made and his subsequent defense of said comment.

Had it been misinterpreted, he would have done what you did -- clarify what he meant. He could have gone with any variation of "I worded that poorly. I meant...".


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> And a woman  parent having the right to make her own choices, even if you don't like them, is completely appropriate.


Fixed it for ya.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You seem to struggle with your own ability to admit you work in a failed system cheating parents and children of their future. Owning that is the first step to recovery.


Maybe because your interpretation that it is a "failed system cheating parents..." is not accurate.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the comment you posted was inappropriate and bigoted? You could even have gone with "Sorry, I phrased that poorly. What I meant was...". But you didn't. You continue to defend the comment you made.
> 
> For what it's worth, the rest of your comment is worth nothing. And a woman having the right to make her own choices, even if you don't like them, is completely appropriate.


I did exactly that! But he was so tied in knots he wasn’t having any! 
so your fine and dandy with millions of innocent children being slaughtered here in our country...., that speaks volumes!


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Fixed it for ya.


When did I ever say parents should not have school choice? They do, in fact, have school choice and have had for a very long time. The voucher pushers, however, want public funds to pay for their choice while at the same time allowing the schools they choose to continue to engage in discriminatory practices, operate under special rules and deny services to children. There's a whole thread on the topic in the dark rooms.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Maybe because your interpretation that it is a "failed system cheating parents..." is not accurate.


You just managed to identify the problem in a single sentence.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Maybe because your interpretation that it is a "failed system cheating parents..." is not accurate.


The facts say otherwise.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I did exactly that! But he was so tied in knots he wasn’t having any!
> so your fine and dandy with millions of innocent children being slaughtered here in our country...., that speaks volumes!


No, you didn't. You defended your post in that thread.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You just managed to identify the problem in a single sentence.


Yes, that I deal in facts and you don't.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> The facts say otherwise.


Wrong, as I pointed out to you in the thread in the dark room. But, as usual, facts mean nothing to you in the face of your dearly held beliefs.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, that I deal in facts and you don't.


It might appear that you deal in towing the company line, and it would seem a large segment of American parents would feel the same, based on the results being vomited out of our public schools.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, you didn't. You defended your post in that thread.


Short memory I see, I opened apologized to him in the room, plus in pm. He wasn’t having any. Kinda like you sometimes. I explained my post in that thread there is a difference.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, that I deal in facts talking points and you don't.


That spell correct seems to be busy this morning.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Wrong, as I pointed out to you in the thread in the dark room. But, as usual, facts mean nothing to you in the face of your dearly held beliefs.


So having millions of students across the country entering the workforce illiterate is a success in your mind? To me, and many others it’s a dismal failure.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

For those who haven't seen this rerun in previous posts, the company line is public schools are fine, and anything that takes monies from their budget is bad, anyone who demands accountability is wrong, and it is all the parent's fault that Johnny and Mollie get passed thru the system.
The attitude seems to be like a brotherhood where it is us teachers against the world, rather than teachers for the kids. 
And as usual, you spend zero time offering any solutions to this broken mechanism, just refuting any ideas for improvement.
It is like you read from a prompter.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, that I deal in facts and you don't.











American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math


What the latest results of an international test tell us about the state of education in the United States




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Evons hubby said:


> American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math
> 
> 
> What the latest results of an international test tell us about the state of education in the United States
> ...


In my best joe Friday voice “the facts, just the facts ma’am”


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> For those who haven't seen this rerun in previous posts, the company line is public schools are fine, and anything that takes monies from their budget is bad, anyone who demands accountability is wrong, and it is all the parent's fault that Johnny and Mollie get passed thru the system.
> The attitude seems to be like a brotherhood where it is us teachers against the world, rather than teachers for the kids.
> And as usual, you spend zero time offering any solutions to this broken mechanism, just refuting any ideas for improvement.
> It is like you read from a prompter.


Nice try but not true. I've offered many solutions. I've also proposed that private schools be required to give up their special rules and be required to stop denying services to students in order to receive public funds but the voucher pushers want their special rules AND public funds.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Nice try but not true. I've offered many solutions. I've also proposed that private schools be required to give up their special rules and be required to stop denying services to students in order to receive public funds but the voucher pushers want their special rules AND public funds.


And how, pray tell, does denying private school funding help solve illiteracy across the board?


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Costs $17,000 per child in Baltimore public schools paid for by taxes.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> And how, pray tell, does denying private school funding help solve illiteracy across the board?


It was a deflection. Rather than address the garbage laying in her front yard, she wants to blame the neighbor for leaving his porch light on all night.
It is everything but the public school system.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Forcast said:


> Costs $17,000 per child in Baltimore public schools paid for by taxes.


And their stellar performance rate?? Any one? Bueller?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You still have your panties in wad over your misinterpretation of a comment I made about hitlers stereotyping? Get over it already!


Some blood never forgets.

We have to be that way. We’re stronger than you, and will still be here long after your type is nothing but a bad distant memory of history. We’re the ones who will make sure history remembers mistakes like you and your kind.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Evons hubby said:


> And their stellar performance rate?? Any one? Bueller?


From back of class.,., Welcome to the Maryland Report Card


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Maybe because your interpretation that it is a "failed system cheating parents..." is not accurate.


So you contend the popular opinion of most here, and with the general public, and something as tangible as rankings of the US education system compared to other nations is all just inaccurate reporting.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Some blood never forgets.
> 
> We have to be that way. We’re stronger than you, and will still be here long after your type is nothing but a bad distant memory of history. We’re the ones who will make sure history remembers mistakes like you and your kind.


Is that racial supremacy I hear? Tsk tsk.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

What's next on this episode of General Hospital???


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> What's next on this episode of General Hospital???


The show gets moved to late night


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> And how, pray tell, does denying private school funding help solve illiteracy across the board?


What does cherry picking students and denying services do to help solve illiteracy?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Is that racial supremacy I hear? Tsk tsk.


No. 
Ideological supremacy.

We are superior to bigots like you.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> They do, in fact, have school choice and have had for a very long time.


Only the wealthy have school choice, just like they have the choice of security, health care, water supply, air filtration, better cars, vacations, etc.

But the rest have no choice. And the political party of big government wants to keep it that way.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> What does cherry picking students and denying services do to help solve illiteracy?


It cuts down on disruptive students allowing interested students to learn.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> So you contend the popular opinion of most here, and with the general public, and something as tangible as rankings of the US education system compared to other nations is all just inaccurate reporting.


You mean tangible things such as our reading and science scores being above the mean? How about the fact that our scores have remained stable not in decline like popular opinion seems to be? How about the fact that one data point every three years over one age is hardly a substantive comparison? How about the fact that the PISA (that's the test you're referencing) report itself points out the impact that socioeconomic status among a country's students has an impact on performance?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> It cuts down on disruptive students allowing interested students to learn.


No, it perpetuates the illusion that private schools are better at educating students when the research does not support that belief.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> No.
> Ideological supremacy.
> 
> We are superior to bigots like you.


Sounded like superiority based on race to me. That whole blood thing. Much like hitlers ideological supremacy.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> Only the wealthy have school choice, just like they have the choice of security, health care, water supply, air filtration, better cars, vacations, etc.
> 
> But the rest have no choice. And the political party of big government wants to keep it that way.


Not true. You have all the educational choice you want. It's amazing how, all over this country, people who are not wealthy seem to manage to exercise their educational choice without demanding that their schools receive public money AND be allowed to continue operating under their special rules & denying services.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, it perpetuates the illusion that private schools are better at educating students when the research does not support that belief.


Tee hee facts says different, much higher test scores on college entrance exams. But you know that already.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not true. You have all the educational choice you want. It's amazing how, all over this country, people who are not wealthy seem to manage to exercise their educational choice without demanding that their schools receive public money AND be allowed to continue operating under their special rules & denying services.


Yes, while the public schools glom onto those tax dollars for students they provide no service to!


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Tee hee facts says different, much higher test scores on college entrance exams. But you know that already.


Research says differently, which you already know if you bothered to read it. Compare results among students of the same sociodemographic group, where the only difference is type of system, and you will find that your belief that private schools are better is wrong.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is as if she thinks we came from the same educational system she touts in order to believe this stuff, lol.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> Nice try but not true. I've offered many solutions. I've also proposed that private schools be required to give up their special rules and be required to stop denying services to students in order to receive public funds but the voucher pushers want their special rules AND public funds.


So you want private schools (which are necessary because government rules for government schools push failure) to follow the same rules that cause government schools to fail.

Yeah, makes sense only if your focus is on maintaining the status quo.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Research says differently, which you already know if you bothered to read it. Compare results among students of the same sociodemographic group, where the only difference is type of system, and you will find that your belief that private schools are better is wrong.


I read your biased “research” with the skewed numbers to create the illusion that public schools are every bit as good as private schools. Even Biden knows better....”poor kids are just as smart as white kids.”


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Evons hubby said:


> Yes, while the public schools glom onto those tax dollars for students they provide no service to!


You can't opt out of paying those taxes. I have three nephews and a niece who were home schooled ...


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> You have all the educational choice you want.


Sure. If you can afford it.

If you cant, and you live in a terrible school district....well, no other choice for you.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

boatswain2PA said:


> So you want private schools (which are necessary because government rules for government schools push failure) to follow the same rules that cause government schools to fail.
> 
> Yeah, makes sense only if your focus is on maintaining the status quo.


Exactly. So when you read the horrid literacy, attendance and graduation rates in cities like Chicago, the advocates for mediocracy throw a right arm out and declare "Nothing to see here, move along!"


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> So you want private schools (which are necessary because government rules for government schools push failure) to follow the same rules that cause government schools to fail.
> 
> Yeah, makes sense only if your focus is on maintaining the status quo.


Follow the money, teach however you want, just don’t touch our money!


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I read your biased “research” with the skewed numbers to create the illusion that public schools are every bit as good as private schools. Even Biden knows better....”poor kids are just as smart as white kids.”


You obviously don't understand how to conduct a valid comparison which is what that research did. Let me simplify it for you, since it was apparently too complicated for you to comprehend.

If I want to compare one type of school to another type of school, then I have to hold all other variables constant in order to make it valid. If I try to compare wealthy, male, private school students to poor, female, public school students then my comparison is invalid. I have to compare wealthy, male, private school students to wealthy, male, public school students in order for my comparison to be valid. That is what the research I posted did. And the results showed that type of system, when all other variables are held constant like they should be in a valid comparison, makes no difference. I realize you don't like those facts but they are indeed facts.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You obviously don't understand how to conduct a valid comparison which is what that research did. Let me simplify it for you, since it was apparently too complicated for you to comprehend.
> 
> If I want to compare one type of school to another type of school, then I have to hold all other variables constant in order to make it valid. If I try to compare wealthy, male, private school students to poor, female, public school students then my comparison is invalid. I have to compare wealthy, male, private school students to wealthy, male, public school students in order for my comparison to be valid. That is what the research I posted did. And the results showed that type of system, when all other variables are held constant like they should be in a valid comparison, makes no difference. I realize you don't like those facts but they are indeed facts.


Read your research again. They compared the lowest common denominators. Ie kids riding the short bus.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> So you want private schools (which are necessary because government rules for government schools push failure) to follow the same rules that cause government schools to fail.
> 
> Yeah, makes sense only if your focus is on maintaining the status quo.


I want them to have to compete on a level playing field. If the private schools are so much better at education than public schools, then they should be able to educate everyone who walks through the door. They should be able to take kids of all backgrounds, kids with IEPs, ELL kids, etc. and educate them all. No cherry picking and denial of services if they want public funds.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I want them to have to compete on a level playing field. If the private schools are so much better at education than public schools, then they should be able to educate everyone who walks through the door. They should be able to take kids of all backgrounds, kids with IEPs, ELL kids, etc. and educate them all. No cherry picking and denial of services if they want public funds.


Yes you’ve mentioned this before, knowing full well that would destroy a good learning environment and end up in the very same toilet the public school students have to swim in.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Read your research again. They compared the lowest common denominators. Ie kids riding the short bus.


Just when I think you can't be even more of a despicable person, you manage to surprise me.

Kids with special needs are not the "lowest common denominators" and dismissing them as "kids riding the short bus" is disgusting. But then, again, you constantly reveal who and what you are.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Yes you’ve mentioned this before, knowing full well that would destroy a good learning environment and end up in the very same toilet the public school students have to swim in.


Come on, if the private schools are as great as you claim at educating students, they should be able to take all comers and, due to the superior teaching methods that you imagine they have, produce superior results.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Level playing field is double speak for everyone has to perform under the same disadvantage.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Just when I think you can't be even more of a despicable person, you manage to surprise me.
> 
> Kids with special needs are not the "lowest common denominators" and dismissing them as "kids riding the short bus" is disgusting. But then, again, you constantly reveal who and what you are.


Despicable could also be applied to those who willingly condone children under their watch to graduate and enter public life as illiterates. But I suppose being emotional about our kids and the futures vs politics and money would be unnecessary.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Level playing field is double speak for everyone has to perform under the same disadvantage.


How sad that you see allowing all children to attend school regardless of background as a disadvantage. How sad that you see providing services to children with special needs as a disadvantage. How sad that you see providing language support to ELL students so they can learn and use English as a disadvantage.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How sad that you see allowing all children to attend school regardless of background as a disadvantage. How sad that you see providing services to children with special needs as a disadvantage. How sad that you see providing language support to ELL students so they can learn and use English as a disadvantage.


You seem to beleive all those factors are what puts public schools at a disadvantage.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Just when I think you can't be even more of a despicable person, you manage to surprise me.
> 
> Kids with special needs are not the "lowest common denominators" and dismissing them as "kids riding the short bus" is disgusting. But then, again, you constantly reveal who and what you are.


And yet, I’m not the one who advocates for the slaughter of millions of innocent children.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> You mean tangible things such as our reading and science scores being above the mean? How about the fact that our scores have remained stable not in decline like popular opinion seems to be? How about the fact that one data point every three years over one age is hardly a substantive comparison? How about the fact that the PISA (that's the test you're referencing) report itself points out the impact that socioeconomic status among a country's students has an impact on performance?


1. South Korea: 32 percent STEM degrees 
2. Germany: 31 percent 
3. Sweden: 28 percent STEM degrees 
4. Finland: 28 percent 
6. Greece: 26 percent STEM degrees 
7. Estonia – 26 percent STEM degrees 

Notice the US is not on that list








The Smartest Countries in the World in STEM Education


STEM graduates have the skills necessary to usher us into the future. And if you want to know which countries are leading the pack, this list will help.




tech.co














~13% of US degrees are in Science, Technology, Engineering or Mathematics









Infographic: The Countries With The Most STEM Graduates


This chart shows recent graduates in Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (2016).




www.statista.com


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> I want them to have to compete on a level playing field. If the private schools are so much better at education than public schools, then they should be able to educate everyone who walks through the door. They should be able to take kids of all backgrounds, kids with IEPs, ELL kids, etc. and educate them all. No cherry picking and denial of services if they want public funds.


But public schools don't do this now. They are obviously NOT able to educate everyone who walks through the doors as too many kids (like the kid in the OP) "graduate" without basic educational skills. Furthermore, public schools frequently expel students who do not meet their criteria. This is a form of cherry picking, if you will.

But you do have a point. Public schools is where we can "dump" the kids who are the hardest to educate. I think there is a way around this with vouchers by giving a higher voucher award to parents with children on IEPs, etc. This will create incentive for schools that actually specialize in types of learning disorders. No more having one deaf child, one blind child, three ADHD, two oppositional, one seizure, and two MR kids in the same class room trying to teach 20 non-IEP kids the same stuff. Have a stratified voucher program with higher payments for kids with greater disabilities and you will find schools for the deaf, schools for the blind, schools for the ADHD, schools for the oppositional, etc ad nauseum.

The current way we level the playing field means we have lowered the average wayyy to far.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> How sad that you see allowing all children to attend school regardless of background as a disadvantage


Strawman. Your emotional response to this discussion makes you FEEL like those who disagree with you "don't want to allow all children to attend school regardless of background". 

Nobody has even remotely said this. Nobody. You FEEL like we think that way, but you would be wrong.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> Strawman. Your emotional response to this discussion makes you FEEL like those who disagree with you "don't want to allow all children to attend school regardless of background".
> 
> Nobody has even remotely said this. Nobody. You FEEL like we think that way, but you would be wrong.


Then you support requiring private schools to enroll anyone regardless of background in order to receive public funds? 

Then you support requiring private schools to provide special education services in order to receive public funds?


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> Then you support requiring private schools to enroll anyone regardless of background in order to receive public funds?
> 
> Then you support requiring private schools to provide special education services in order to receive public funds?


No. I support very, very, very little government "requirements" for schools. Let the parents figure it out.

Give the parents the POWER along with the responsibility. If the mother in the OP had the CHOICE to send her kid to a different school, and kept him in the school where he was failing, then I would completely and totally blame the mother for her kids failures. But she didn't have a choice. She lives where some overpaid Baltimore bureaucrat says she has to send her kid to this school, and she has no choice but to doom her kid to going to a terrible school.

I would support giving a larger voucher for kids with IEPs/special needs to entice schools to take them, and give schools who take them greater resources.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> But public schools don't do this now. They are obviously NOT able to educate everyone who walks through the doors as too many kids (like the kid in the OP) "graduate" without basic educational skills. Furthermore, public schools frequently expel students who do not meet their criteria. This is a form of cherry picking, if you will.
> 
> But you do have a point. Public schools is where we can "dump" the kids who are the hardest to educate. I think there is a way around this with vouchers by giving a higher voucher award to parents with children on IEPs, etc. This will create incentive for schools that actually specialize in types of learning disorders. No more having one deaf child, one blind child, three ADHD, two oppositional, one seizure, and two MR kids in the same class room trying to teach 20 non-IEP kids the same stuff. Have a stratified voucher program with higher payments for kids with greater disabilities and you will find schools for the deaf, schools for the blind, schools for the ADHD, schools for the oppositional, etc ad nauseum.
> 
> The current way we level the playing field means we have lowered the average wayyy to far.


So your solution is to put students with special needs in some school away from their typically developing peers? Hey, why don't we go whole hog and just institutionalize them like we used to? 

Hate to break it to you but students with IEPs are, first of all, general education students, just like their peers without IEPs and, as such, are entitled to access the general education curriculum just like their peers without IEPs. They are also entitled to additional supports to address their special needs. 

Public schools cannot just "expel students who do not meet their criteria". There are due process rules that the public schools are required to follow. Rules, btw, that you want to allow the private schools to continue to ignore while accessing public funding.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Some seem to think our criticism or dissatisfactions is with public school teachers. It is not. 

The institution of public education is at fault. When any entity is forced on you, quality will suffer. When most people have no choice, then you are forced to take what you can get. 

I bet you if the government made ice cream most of us would not like ice cream.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

At this point I'm glad I dropped out in the 13th grade!!!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> So your solution is to ...


Verses your solution which has been nothing. Zero.
No plan, no new idea, no change from the current slow dripping death of the public government pork fed system.

If the politicians treated our public education like they did this Chinese virus, at least to quote a liberal cliche "something would have been done." After all, it is clear that what has been happening to our nation's kids under the current malaise is just as serious as any mask-inducing virus.
Kid's futures are being destroyed right out of the gate, and you still have nothing to offer.
That is why it sounds like an echo chamber to you; you are the only one still chewing on the turd they told you was chocolate.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I bet you if the government made ice cream most of us would not like ice cream.


First business owner I went to work for taught me something I didn't learn in school. 
He said "Don't ever criticize my competition. It makes me look like I don't have anything better to offer."
That seems to be applicable today.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Verses your solution which has been nothing. Zero.
> No plan, no new idea, no change from the current slow dripping death of the public government pork fed system.
> 
> If the politicians treated our public education like they did this Chinese virus, at least to quote a liberal cliche "something would have been done." After all, it is clear that what has been happening to our nation's kids under the current malaise is just as serious as any mask-inducing virus.
> ...


And you continue to be wrong. Go look at the suggestions I posted on the thread on this topic in the dark room.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Really does not matter if public or private school is best. What should matter is the parents choice. Once that choice is made, their tax dollars should follow them and be used as they see fit. Its just that simple.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Really does not matter if public or private school is best. What should matter is the parents choice. Once that choice is made, their tax dollars should follow them and be used as they see fit. Its just that simple.


If the schools they choose are not allowed to operate under special rules & deny services AND receive public funding. It's just that simple.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> So your solution is to put students with special needs in some school away from their typically developing peers?


I assume you are a teacher, so I assume you know how to read, so I gotta ask...*** did you get this idea from what I wrote? 


SLFarmMI said:


> Hate to break it to you but students with IEPs are, first of all, general education students, just like their peers without IEPs and, as such, are entitled to access the general education curriculum just like their peers without IEPs. They are also entitled to additional supports to address their special needs.


No worries, you are not breaking any new info on me.

Same thing could happen with vouchers (except for that "entitled" thing which usually leads to the poor quality outcomes we see in so many public schools today).


SLFarmMI said:


> Public schools cannot just "expel students who do not meet their criteria". There are due process rules that the public schools are required to follow


Due process rules that the school board/districts creates....which means they can create the rules to expel anyone they want.


SLFarmMI said:


> Rules, btw, that you want to allow the private schools to continue to ignore while accessing public funding.


Kind of. I dont mind public schools expelling kids who dont meet their criteria, and I want private schools to be able to select students who they feel would be best able to excel in their schools, and give parents ability to select schools they feel their child would best be able to excel in. 

Different rules, but ability to "cherry pick" like public schools do.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> If the schools they choose are not allowed to operate under special rules & deny services AND receive public funding. It's just that simple.


So you are ok with vouchers as long as private schools who accept them have absolutely no admission standards?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> And you continue to be wrong. Go look at the suggestions I posted on the thread on this topic in the dark room.


Why the dark room? What could you fear by showing the general membership here what it is you would do to correct the current issues with public schooling?
Show us your ideas and maybe convince a few of the dull and thick necked among us.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

GTX63 said:


> Show us your ideas and maybe convince a few of the dull and thick necked among us.


Dont forget those of us with prominent forehead ridges....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

205 posts on this thread alone and we are supposed to go somewhere else for the information, lol.
Does this remind you of anything you experience elsewhere?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> I assume you are a teacher, so I assume you know how to read, so I gotta ask...*** did you get this idea from what I wrote?


 "No more having one deaf child, one blind child, three ADHD, two oppositional, one seizure, and two MR kids in the same class room trying to teach 20 non-IEP kids the same stuff." Sound familiar? Sure sounds like you are advocating that students with hearing impairments, visual impairments, ADHD, ODD, seizure disorder and cognitive impairments don't belong in classes with those who don't.



boatswain2PA said:


> No worries, you are not breaking any new info on me.
> 
> Same thing could happen with vouchers (except for that "entitled" thing which usually leads to the poor quality outcomes we see in so many public schools today).


No, vouchers with no requirement that private schools abandon their special rules and denial of services will improve nothing.



boatswain2PA said:


> Due process rules that the school board/districts creates....which means they can create the rules to expel anyone they want.


No, due process rules are spelled out via Federal and state law. 



boatswain2PA said:


> Kind of. I dont mind public schools expelling kids who dont meet their criteria, and I want private schools to be able to select students who they feel would be best able to excel in their schools, and give parents ability to select schools they feel their child would best be able to excel in.
> 
> Different rules, but ability to "cherry pick" like public schools do.


And I want schools that receive public funding to follow the same rules and provide the same services. Public schools do not "cherry pick" students but private schools sure do and, if they receive public funding, they shouldn't be allowed to.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Notice how my point was skipped, ignored, glossed over, inconvenient, so forth and so on.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> So you are ok with vouchers as long as private schools who accept them have absolutely no admission standards?


What in my post was unclear to you? Follow the same rules & provide the same services if you want public funds.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Why the dark room? What could you fear by showing the general membership here what it is you would do to correct the current issues with public schooling?
> Show us your ideas and maybe convince a few of the dull and thick necked among us.


Because that is where the conversation was held. I will check the site rules to see if it is within the rules to copy my own post from the dark room and put it here. If it is not a violation of the rules, I will. The post is long and I really don't want to retype it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Redlands Okie said:


> Really does not matter if public or private school is best. What should matter is the parents choice. Once that choice is made, their tax dollars should follow them and be used as they see fit. Its just that simple.


But if we do that the public schools would not be able to receive funds for kids they don’t teach.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Why the dark room? What could you fear by showing the general membership here what it is you would do to correct the current issues with public schooling?
> Show us your ideas and maybe convince a few of the dull and thick necked among us.


Doesn't look like my copying it and posting it here is against the rules so here you go.

1. Get the politicians out of education. The way we have our system structured, every time there is a change in the President, Congress, Governor or State Legislature, they stick their fingers in education and we change course. We never stick to any course of action. We need to take a look at Norway for a lesson in what can happen when you pick a direction and stay the course. Norway developed a plan for improving their education and stuck to it regardless of what politicians were in office. Their system went from lousy to one of the best over the course of about 20 years using the research that, ironically, came mostly from the US. They've had some challenges in recent years because they've started straying from their path.

2. Trust the research. We have massive amounts of research on just about everything to do with education and child development. Unfortunately, the people in charge of making decisions about education, which, contrary to popular belief isn't the teachers, either don't read it or choose to ignore it.

3. Stop making teachers the enemy. That one is pretty self explanatory. Many other countries, Norway included, treat their teachers like the professionals we are. We don't do that here. We bash teachers for wanting a decent wage, health care, input into working conditions, you name it.

4. Address the problems with how we address aging school facilities. There is no excuse for any child having to attend a school where the ceiling leaks, the plumbing or heat doesn't work, etc. There is currently almost no Federal funding for capital improvements or replacements of school buildings. Twelve states, mine included, provide no state funds for that purpose. Only 5 states provide more than 50% of the funds needed for this purpose. That puts the bulk of the funding on the local districts so, in poor areas, building upgrades or replacements aren't going to happen because those districts can't afford it. A millage in a neighborhood where the houses are worth $50,000 isn't going to generate the same funding as one in a neighborhood where the houses are worth $500,000.

5. Keep class sizes low. Research suggests that the ideal class size in elementary school is no more than 18.

6. Hold parents accountable. Everybody talks about how teachers should be accountable and how schools should be accountable but no one ever mentions that parents should be accountable. Unless your kid has some sort of medical condition, he or she should not be missing more than, at most, 10 days of school in any given year. Attend parent-teacher conferences. Show up at IEP meetings. Read your kids' report cards and ask questions. Answer the teacher's phone calls and emails. Recognize that the word "parent" is also a verb.

7. Stop trying to push more and more onto the schools. Every time we turn around, someone is trying to add more to the curriculum that is most appropriately the province of the parent. It is not the school's job to teach your kid how to budget, sew on a button, garden or any other thing that the parents don't want to teach. That goes back to that "parent is a verb" concept.

8. Tweak the Common Core standards. We do need a set of national standards that all states adhere to. This is NOT a national curriculum but a national set of standards which is what Common Core is. CC does need some tweaking though. There are some standards in there that are developmentally inappropriate for where they are placed. The roll out was also done in a ham-handed manner so many people have the belief that CC is a teaching method or national curriculum which is not what it is.

9. Stop with the constant testing. We do the MSTEP test here. I teach all grades (3-5) that have to take this test. These tests are ridiculously long and each grade has a separate testing window. They take up way too much instructional time and they tell me absolutely nothing about a student that I don't already know.

10. We need more intervention specialists. There are kids in general education who struggle with reading and/or math. Their teachers do the best they can working with small groups to help struggling students but they only have so much time and they are spread very thin.

11. High quality preschool for young children at risk. Many children enter kindergarten already far behind where they should be. We need to address this so they aren't playing catch up from day one of their school career.

12. Bring back the bookmobile. I'm probably showing my age here but I remember a bookmobile from the public library coming into our neighborhood weekly all throughout my childhood. I don't recall any actual checkout procedures so I think they may have run something like the Little Free Libraries you see nowadays. Take out a book and then trade it for another. There are many kids in this country who don't have access to books for a whole host of reasons. We need to get quality literature into the hands of kids.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Certainly we need to do something about poverty and lousy parenting as well as those affect learning but those problems are well outside the scope of issues the schools can solve.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> "No more having one deaf child, one blind child, three ADHD, two oppositional, one seizure, and two MR kids in the same class room trying to teach 20 non-IEP kids the same stuff." Sound familiar? Sure sounds like you are advocating that students with hearing impairments, visual impairments, ADHD, ODD, seizure disorder and cognitive impairments don't belong in classes with those who don't.


and the problem would be? Sounds like the other kids would benefit greatly.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> and the problem would be? Sounds like the other kids would benefit greatly.


Why am I not surprised that you would be a fan of discrimination?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Discrimination runs more than one direction.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Evons hubby said:


> and the problem would be? Sounds like the other kids would benefit greatly.


Special needs should have a different route and teachers with that ability . Bad as I hate to say its just like putting solitary confinement in the general population. They have have their needs addressed differently...


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

TripleD said:


> Special needs should have a different route and teachers with that ability . Bad as I hate to say its just like putting solitary confinement in the general population. They have have their needs addressed differently...


You are so very wrong.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Sorry, but he is not. My daughter held that very position in two public schools.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

That was very articulate an substantive. I doubt anyone would find disagreement in all of your points, and most would find agreement with a lot of it.

From where I sit, there are a couple points I do t need sold on, and a couple which I doubt we’ll ever agree.



SLFarmMI said:


> 1. Get the politicians out of education. The way we have our system structured, every time there is a change in the President, Congress, Governor or State Legislature, they stick their fingers in education and we change course. We never stick to any course of action. We need to take a look at Norway for a lesson in what can happen when you pick a direction and stay the course. Norway developed a plan for improving their education and stuck to it regardless of what politicians were in office. Their system went from lousy to one of the best over the course of about 20 years using the research that, ironically, came mostly from the US. They've had some challenges in recent years because they've started straying from their path.


I think most agree with this one, but it would have to mean ALL politics, not actually a deep state-like continuance toward progressivism, which is what many see our education system doing. Politics belong only in a very limited set of classes (those pertaining specifically to politics), and shouldn’t be found anywhere else. If we even know the politics of any given teacher or administrator, they’re doing it wrong.

The politics has to come out, but that is not limited to the Department of Education. It has to come out of the teachers, the administration, and the unions.



SLFarmMI said:


> 3. Stop making teachers the enemy. That one is pretty self explanatory. Many other countries, Norway included, treat their teachers like the professionals we are. We don't do that here. We bash teachers for wanting a decent wage, health care, input into working conditions, you name it.


The teachers need to work to solve that one as well. When we find out our kid learned about politics in math class, that teacher needs to be gone. No second chances. No severance. Just gone.

Teachers are something like brain surgeons in that, behind the closed door, their work has a lot of power over how their “patients’” brain works when the come out. A math teacher injecting politics, or a science teacher injecting the social justice soup of the day into their lessons is no different than a brain surgeon carving their initials in the skull cap before putting it back in. It can’t be tolerated.




SLFarmMI said:


> 5. Keep class sizes low. Research suggests that the ideal class size in elementary school is no more than 18.


That would be great, but it’s going to cost a lot of money, and, to make every school equal would require a wholesale federalization of the school system. Some states and locales are able to garner more tax dollars from their communities. Collecting from all and distributing to those in need, alone, is not going to solve the problem. Taxes would have to be raised on all, significantly, and those who pay the most are going to see their local systems degraded. That’s not going to brief well at the ballot box.

It’s a great idea, but not one that is likely to work.


SLFarmMI said:


> 6. Hold parents accountable. Everybody talks about how teachers should be accountable and how schools should be accountable but no one ever mentions that parents should be accountable. Unless your kid has some sort of medical condition, he or she should not be missing more than, at most, 10 days of school in any given year. Attend parent-teacher conferences. Show up at IEP meetings. Read your kids' report cards and ask questions. Answer the teacher's phone calls and emails. Recognize that the word "parent" is also a verb.


100% agree.
Nothing to add. Just thought that it was well-enough said to merit a quote.



SLFarmMI said:


> 7. Stop trying to push more and more onto the schools. Every time we turn around, someone is trying to add more to the curriculum that is most appropriately the province of the parent. It is not the school's job to teach your kid how to budget, sew on a button, garden or any other thing that the parents don't want to teach. That goes back to that "parent is a verb" concept.


50% agree. Home Economics, Art, and the various permutations of Shop were an important part of school. They’re part of the well-rounded education, and something that may not be found at home. I have a good friend who ended up with a successful fashion design business that only started after he realized how much he enjoyed sewing. He didn’t have a sewing machine in the home, and actually bought one with summer job money when that semester was over. He knew he wasn’t going to see that class again, and, if he wanted to sew, he was going to have to make it happen himself.

Think about how many kids don’t have a table saw or welding torch in their homes. As it is, without an introductory shop class, they may never get the chance to know how much they love that type of work. A vocational school may be exactly what they need, but a lot of kids end up having to make that choice without any context. The jump from conventional classroom to vocational is an important one, and can be risky. Every kid deserves a chance to see what it’s about before making that commitment.

Where I do agree 50% is that there is a lot of extra crap trying to be stuffed into the curriculum, but it seems to all be coming from the side that also seems to be injecting most of the politics into the classroom.

Heck, we had a teacher on here the other day advocating the need to teach non-European “versions” of math and science. You should have a talk with her.



Lastly, to add a #13 to the list; I think we absolutely need to go to year-round schooling. No more calendar holiday time than what the other jobs in the area observe. School needs to be a kid’s profession, and, if they have to take some homework with them when the family goes on vacation, so be it. They’re learning good professional habits.

I was honestly surprised to not see that one on your list of how to fix the public schools. Do you support year-round schooling?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Still ignored.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are so very wrong.


I tried to stay out of this. Enlighten me how I'm wrong?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The proof of our success with public schools is in the results.

As recently as 20 years ago, the United States was ranked No.1 in high school and college education. Much of the boom in American education during the second half of the 20th century was fueled by the Montgomery G.I. Bill, which provided scholarships and student loans to veteran service personnel returning from World War II. Having matured on the battlefield, thousands of returning troops eagerly seized the opportunity to improve their postwar prospects in the civilian world, leading to a transformation of the American middle class in the 1950s and 1960s.

In 2009, the United States was ranked 18th out of 36 industrialized nations.









Was the USA ever No. 1 in education?


Was the United States of America ever number one in world rankings in education? If so, when did the ranking begin to change? Thank you. Larry




www.historynet.com


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Why America Is No Longer No. 1, in 9 Charts


In a scene from the pilot episode of HBO show The Newsroom, a young Northwestern student asks a panel of speakers to explain "why America is the greatest country in the world." While the of the panelists offer generically patriotic answers, the…




www.mic.com


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-results_ENGLISH.png


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That was very articulate an substantive. I doubt anyone would find disagreement in all of your points, and most would find agreement with a lot of it.
> 
> From where I sit, there are a couple points I do t need sold on, and a couple which I doubt we’ll ever agree.
> 
> ...


I'll take your proposed #13 first. No, I do not support year round school. I've taught in a year-round school when I taught middle school science in California. The research indicates that the results from year-round school is inconclusive at best. My personal experience bears that out. The results don't justify the increase in costs associated with it. Ever been in a metal portable building all day long with 35 middle schoolers in Southern California with no air conditioning in July? It's really difficult to learn when it is 95 (and yes I measured) inside your classroom. Not trying to be gross here but the combination of middle school boys' BO, farts and feet in a 95 degree room would knock over an elephant.

Regarding my #7 -- I wasn't speaking of vocational education. That is a valuable part of the educational offerings and should remain. We actually do a "survey" type of class in middle school here where kids can explore different type of vocational courses to see what they like. If memory serves, they rotate part of the school year through wood shop, metal shop, food service, some sort of medical services class, etc. I was speaking of the sort of stuff that crops up like "the schools should teach kids how to balance a checkbook, change a tire, plant a garden". That sort of stuff belongs in the parents' wheelhouse not pushed off onto the schools.

Also regarding #7, we absolutely do need to teach everything that we cover in a culturally sensitive and inclusive way. That means teaching the entire truth about the things that we, as a nation, have done, not the America Uber Alles version we got growing up. It does indeed mean when teaching something like tessellations, for example, bringing in the "versions" of that concept from a variety of cultures.

I agree that #5 isn't likely to happen due to finances but it is a goal that we should be working for. How we are going to get there I don't know. We need those lower class sizes especially in the younger grades (K-2) because that is where those foundational skills that you need for everything else are developed.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

TripleD said:


> I tried to stay out of this. Enlighten me how I'm wrong?


"Special needs should have a different route". That certainly sounds like you are advocating that students with special needs do not belong in the general education classroom. That they should be shuffled off to some netherworld and not allowed to mix with their typically developing peers. That they should be pushed out of the general education classroom because they have a disability. That is discrimination and is 100% wrong.

So, according to this logic:
My totally blind student should be banned from the general education classroom because she has a disability.
My learning disabled student should be banned from the general education classroom because he has a disability.
My autistic student should be banned from the general education classroom because he has a disability.
My hearing impaired student should be banned from the general education classroom because she has a disability.
My ADHD student should be banned from the general education classroom because he has a disability.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Sorry, but he is not. My daughter held that very position in two public schools.


I feel so left out with no rebuttal. Thanks for the like. I have a family member diagnosed with ADHD at ten years old. He makes about 60k now. TripleD's school of hard knocks!!!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Special needs should have a different route". That certainly sounds like you are advocating that students with special needs do not belong in the general education classroom. That they should be shuffled off to some netherworld and not allowed to mix with their typically developing peers. That they should be pushed out of the general education classroom because they have a disability. That is discrimination and is 100% wrong.
> 
> So, according to this logic:
> My totally blind student should be banned from the general education classroom because she has a disability.
> ...


Just missed your post.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> Just missed your post.


Not at all! Just like putting a geometry student in calculas class. The numbers don't add up...


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

TripleD said:


> Not at all! Just like putting a geometry student in calculas class. The numbers don't add up...


So, yes or no, should the disabled students I listed above be banned from the general education classroom?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, yes or no, should the disabled students I listed above be banned from the general education classroom?


You might need an assistant to carry the extra time needed to get them up to speed. Banned is a bull feces term. Does it slow down the the education of the others???


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

TripleD said:


> You might need an assistant to carry the extra time needed to get them up to speed. Banned is a bull feces term. Does it slow down the the education of the others???


What term would you prefer if you don't like "banned"? Just trying to explore your belief that "special needs should have a different route". Care to elaborate?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> What term would you prefer if you don't like "banned"? Just trying to explore your belief that "special needs should have a different route". Care to elaborate?


You brought up the term banned! Do you have a clue on how to get the children up to speed without slowing down the the education of others???


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

TripleD said:


> You brought up the term banned! Do you have a clue on how to get the children up to speed without slowing down the the education of others???


Of course I know how.

What term would you prefer if "banned" is not to your liking? Care to elaborate on what you meant by "special needs should have a different route"? It seems like you are arguing that children with special needs should not be allowed within the general education classroom.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Our educational performance continues to drop compared to other countries, costing us GDP and jobs, and we argue if government public schooling is working. We don't need tweaking around the edges, we need a wholesale rethink of how we fund schools, how we offer school choices, and how to let our right to choose schools drive performance. 

This continued drive to the bottom is killing our global competitiveness when it could not be important that we play to win. 


















What is competitiveness?


To mark the launch of the latest Global Competitiveness Report, we take a look at what makes an economy competitive, how we measure it and what we can learn from this year's report.




www.weforum.org


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

This will my last post on this thread. Teacher told me in high school I wouldn't amount to anything. I was working a full time job and scored on the SAT's to go to Clemson. Couldn't afford it and make more now than the majority because of that quote!!!!!!!


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> If the schools they choose are not allowed to operate under special rules & deny services AND receive public funding. It's just that simple.


Nope


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Nope


Yep. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Receiving public money while being allowed to operate under special rules and deny services is just wrong.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

There is a need for schools that will take any and all students. We have them. And their funded by tax dollars. Each school gets money for every head in school. 

If the kids are in the school, their funded. 

The teachers and schools gets paid regardless of any special needs or issues of the student or teacher. 

The school and teacher gets paid regardless of the conditions the child has to deal with when in the school. 

The teachers and school get funded regardless of good education provided to the student or not. The OP of this thread is a good example. 

No logic to it at all that I can think of, unless its just plain greed to collect every penny they can. 



Now if a parent has some desire to send their child to a special school, guess what? The taxes have been collected, and should be available to that child’s education, but its usually not available. Seems some think that the money should go to some other school than where the child is. Not exactly fair to the child or their taxpaying parents. 


Since ALL students goings to a public school gets the money allocated for them no matter what, I could not care less about the rules in one school over the other. The money is collected and should be available to the child wherever they are.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> There is a need for schools that will take any and all students. We have them. And their funded by tax dollars. Each school gets money for every head in school.
> 
> If the kids are in the school, their funded.
> 
> ...


Not if the "special school" is allowed to operate under special rules and deny services.

The OP of this thread is a prime example of people crying "the schools should be accountable" while requiring none of the parent or student. How, exactly, was the school supposed to provide an education to this student when he didn't show up to receive it? Late or absent 272 days in HS and you can pretty much bet that HS was not the beginning of his less than stellar attendance record.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Seems like a situation like this is probably beyond help. Especially due to the rules the the public schools seem to be required to operate under. As pointed out it’s probably been a long standing problem for this student. There are private schools that do not allow this to happen. The child will be in class every single day unless there is a medical issue. 

I do wonder if the public school still accepted the money for the OP’s example student? 

No wonder some parents wish to take their child and money to a different program. Places where this is not allowed to happen. Personally I find it hard to blame them. If only they had access to their child’s allocated education funds........


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Seems like a situation like this is probably beyond help. Especially due to the rules the the public schools seem to be required to operate under. As pointed out it’s probably been a long standing problem for this student. There are private schools that do not allow this to happen. The child will be in class every single day unless there is a medical issue.
> 
> I do wonder if the public school still accepted the money for the OP’s example student?
> 
> No wonder some parents wish to take their child and money to a different program. Places where this is not allowed to happen. Personally I find it hard to blame them. If only they had access to their child’s allocated education funds........


What exactly do you think a private school would have done if the mother couldn't be bothered to ensure that her kid showed up to school?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

filed truancy charges in court


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, yes or no, should the disabled students I listed above be banned from the general education classroom?


Any student that creates problems and or distracts the other students on a regular basis should be removed from that class. Find someplace else for them. My teachers utilized spaces such as the empty hallway, or the principles office when I disturbed the class too much.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TripleD said:


> I tried to stay out of this. Enlighten me how I'm wrong?


You disagreed with the all knowing god of education.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not if the "special school" is allowed to operate under special rules and deny services.
> 
> The OP of this thread is a prime example of people crying "the schools should be accountable" while requiring none of the parent or student. How, exactly, was the school supposed to provide an education to this student when he didn't show up to receive it? Late or absent 272 days in HS and you can pretty much bet that HS was not the beginning of his less than stellar attendance record.


I dont know the reasons behind his absences. I’m guessing either sex or drugs or both maybe involved, things not as commonly found in the lower grades.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> What exactly do you think a private school would have done if the mother couldn't be bothered to ensure that her kid showed up to school?


There are a variety of private schools that specialize in dealing with kids having a issues. Called a variety of names, ranches, military school, religious ones. Their not a new concept and they do not always provide the answer, but often times its better than being left to run wild. If mom cannot or will not handle the problem, then they probably can.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Redlands Okie said:


> There are a variety of private schools that specialize in dealing with kids having a issues. Called a variety of names, ranches, military school, religious ones. Their not a new concept and they do not always provide the answer, but often times its better than being left to run wild. If mom cannot or will not handle the problem, then they probably can.


I went to school (public) withA couple of “problem” kids. Their folks had sent them to live with a guy that dealt with such youngsters. He managed to turn them around by providing them with a very disciplined and structured living environment. Dairy farming provided them with plenty to do with there time when not in school, a length of rubber hose provided incentive.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Any student that creates problems and or distracts the other students on a regular basis should be removed from that class. Find someplace else for them. My teachers utilized spaces such as the empty hallway, or the principles office when I disturbed the class too much.


Our daughter did exactly that for two different schools and it worked. Her district thank goodness was not completely beholden to unions and enlightened thinking, and they were able to budget for it.
Keeping troubled kids from the classroom in order to allow the remainder of the students to get their expected educated is a right. To say otherwise is to discriminate against those kids.
Kids who are developmentally disabled, as well as those who has issues with group learning, authority or whatever, should have options for focused one on one learning outside of the environment they either struggle in or cause others to struggle. 
It really isn't that hard.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> 1. Get the politicians out of education....


How did the school board and the administration respond to your solutions for improving the school system?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

TripleD said:


> I tried to stay out of this. Enlighten me how I'm wrong?


You aren't.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

whiterock said:


> filed truancy charges in court


I attended both private and multiple public schools. Night and day difference.
There are public school teachers that care and realize their hands are tied, yet they step out and attempt to make a difference inside of their own world. My experiences as a student, parent and grandparent are that they were the exception not the rule.
My experiences with private schools are that the teachers operate more as a collective; not in the "us against them" that we see so much, but rather they all had a similar vision and knew they had the freedom to implement it.
We see too many teachers in the news teaching students about trans genders, white racism, BLM, their own personal beliefs and a host of issues that fill the gap in teaching that should have been used for basic learning and life skills.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> I attended both private and multiple public schools. Night and day difference.
> There are public school teachers that care and realize their hands are tied, yet they step out and attempt to make a difference inside of their own world. My experiences as a student, parent and grandparent are that they were the exception not the rule.
> My experiences with private schools are that the teachers operate more as a collective; not in the "us against them" that we see so much, but rather they all had a similar vision and knew they had the freedom to implement it.
> We see too many teachers in the news teaching students about trans genders, white racism, BLM, their own personal beliefs and a host of issues that fill the gap in teaching that should have been used for basic learning and life skills.


So true. I’m so glad I went to school in the 50s and 60s when teachers taught math, reading, writing. We already knew what gender we were, and which bathroom to use. In high school the parking lot had number of pickups left unlocked, rifles and shot guns clearly visible in the gun racks. We never shot anyone!


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> "No more having one deaf child, one blind child, three ADHD, two oppositional, one seizure, and two MR kids in the same class room trying to teach 20 non-IEP kids the same stuff." Sound familiar? Sure sounds like you are advocating that students with hearing impairments, visual impairments, ADHD, ODD, seizure disorder and cognitive impairments don't belong in classes with those who don't.


You took that quote and let your emotions turn it into I "want to institutionalize" these kids.

Some special needs kids will do better in general populations schools. Some don't. General population schools do better with some special needs kids in them, but the right mix should be up to the individual schools and, most importantly, THE PARENTS! 

Not some overpaid guv'ment bureaucrat.



SLFarmMI said:


> ouchers with no requirement that private schools abandon their special rules and denial of services will improve nothing.


Giving vouchers to parents would allow them greater opportunity to put their kids in the best schools for them. That's a huge improvement.



SLFarmMI said:


> I want schools that receive public funding to follow the same rules and provide the same services.


Sounds like you want private schools to suck as bad as public schools.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> What in my post was unclear to you? Follow the same rules & provide the same services if you want public funds.


Your posts are pretty clear. You are fine with private schools, as long as we burden them with the same bureaucratical rules that have caused public schools to do so poorly.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The same rules and the same services in too many public schools suck.
I think that is clear.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> 1. Get the politicians out of education.


Including the overly leftist/politicized teachers unions that are married to the political party of big government, racial discordance, gender misguidance, abortion, etc. 

Remember the kids being led by their teacher singing "O-ba-ma, O-ba-ma"



SLFarmMI said:


> 2. Trust the research.


Rookie move made by people who think they understand science but don't have a clue how research works.

History is replete with "research" results that were later found to be completely wrong.

Applying this to education, some idjit "researcher" PROVED (through "research") that "NEW" math would be better for our students, and our society. Forget simply putting numbers in columns of 1/10/100/1000/etc and then adding them up, and carring them over. That simple math that almost every parent could help their grade school kid practice at the dinner table.

NOPE, some idjit PROVED (through "research") that it would better to change it. Turns out the research was WRONG. Well, the "research" probably hasn't shown that, but every parent in the country KNOWS it was a terrible idea.

Research, ESPECIALLY in the soft/social sciences, is almost always terribly biased, often difficult or impossible to replicate (a requirement for TRUE scientific research), and paid for by people with an agenda.



SLFarmMI said:


> 3. Stop making teachers the enemy.


Strawman...nobody is making teachers the enemy.



SLFarmMI said:


> 4. Address the problems with how we address aging school facilities. There is no excuse for any child having to attend a school where the ceiling leaks, the plumbing or heat doesn't work, etc. There is currently almost no Federal funding for capital improvements or replacements of school buildings. T


Baltimore gets $17.5K per student. Why do they need federal funding for capital improvements?

Give me 20 students at $15K/year ($300K/year) I'll rent a small conference room for a year at $24K/year, invest $20K in electronics and textbooks, hire a GREAT teacher at $150K/year, and still have $100K/year to cover other expenses or make a nice profit. 



SLFarmMI said:


> 5. Keep class sizes low


Concur



SLFarmMI said:


> 6. Hold parents accountable.


It is unfair to hold someone accountable who has no authority. Other discussions we have had showed that parents often have absolutely no power to improve their schools, especially true in larger public schools. 

Give the parents vouchers so they have the POWER to make changes, and THEN hold them accountable (or in reality, let Darwinism hold them accountable).


SLFarmMI said:


> 7. Stop trying to push more and more onto the schools.


Yeah, like gender studies, racial disharmony training, "new math", planned parenthood, 1619 project, etc.



SLFarmMI said:


> 8. Tweak the Common Core standards.


If it's about the curricula/standards, let's just dust off the school cirricula from the 1950s and teach that again. It seemed to work VERY WELL to produce highly literate graduates.

I would argue my grandmother, who graduated primary school (8th grade...never went to "high school") had better reading comprehension, writing skills, understanding of history, and mathmatical ability than most high school graduates today.

And she knew that girls were girls, boys were boys, some folks might be in between. She knew that there was racial disparities that we needed to fix. She also knew how to work, sew, cook, shoot, paint, and raise a family.



SLFarmMI said:


> 9. Stop with the constant testing.


Most of that "testing" is done as a part of "research"


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Parents..... too many are simply room mates. A parent should be aware of the progress of the child, in school and otherwise. With a parent with high expectations for the child, the child most often does well. If the parent doesn't stress the value of education, the child most often does poorly, or at best mediocre.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Of course I know how.
> 
> What term would you prefer if "banned" is not to your liking? Care to elaborate on what you meant by "special needs should have a different route"? It seems like you are arguing that children with special needs should not be allowed within the general education classroom.


A different route doesn't mean banned. It means a different route. This could be in a specialized class for most of the day. Some autistic people are genius. Without a different route for then you would hold them back.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

"I had to come back" !!! Movie quote. Just didn't hear where I was wrong?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

whiterock said:


> filed truancy charges in court


And what makes you think the public school didn't do exactly that during the course of this kid's time in the district?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And what makes you think the public school didn't do exactly that during the course of this kid's time in the district?


No mention of such in the article.... what leads you to believe they did?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> A different route doesn't mean banned. It means a different route. This could be in a specialized class for most of the day. Some autistic people are genius. Without a different route for then you would hold them back.


So, your solution is to push them into a self-contained special education class in violation of Least Restrictive Environment?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> No mention of such in the article.... what leads you to believe they did?


Over two decades of experience.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Over two decades of experience.


You’ve spent two decades in the Baltimore school district? For some reason I thought you were in Michigan.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

After 20 years you should know better then.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, your solution is to push them into a self-contained special education class in violation of Least Restrictive Environment?


There is an entire metropolis of strawmen that you have created in just the last week.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> After 20 years you should know better then.


After 20 years, I know enough to view what the mother said in the OP's article with a healthy dose of skepticism.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Hiro said:


> There is an entire metropolis of strawmen that you have created in just the last week.


You might want to learn what a "strawman" is.

When someone suggests placing a student with special needs in a "specialized classroom for most of the day" that's indeed a self-contained classroom placement.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> your solution is to push them into a self-contained special education class in violation of Least Restrictive Environment


Correction - In violation of one of the rules that are forced on our failing public schools.

Hence the need for private schools.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

GTX63 said:


> 20 years you should


20 years kinda makes you part of the establishment...


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to learn what a "strawman" is.
> 
> When someone suggests placing a student with special needs in a "specialized classroom for most of the day" that's indeed a self-contained classroom placement.


Probably so in a public school.

Could look dramatically different in a private school.

But if they did do that, and parents didnt like it....what options do parents have?
With vouchers parents could put kid I'm better school.

With forced public school....sorry, no choice for you!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to learn what a "strawman" is.
> 
> When someone suggests placing a student with special needs in a "specialized classroom for most of the day" that's indeed a self-contained classroom placement.


Specialized is for the higher educated. Are you doing that here?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> Probably so in a public school.
> 
> Could look dramatically different in a private school.
> 
> ...


You are 100% wrong. Public schools are the places where children with disabilities and their parents have rights. Not in the private schools. Private schools don't have to follow the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I half to wonder how slfarm feels about public funds going to colleges. They too operate under those special rules.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, your solution is to push them into a self-contained special education class in violation of Least Restrictive Environment?




Yes. Isn't The LRE determined on a case by case basis? Do they not do that anymore? The science is already there.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are 100% wrong. Public schools are the places where children with disabilities and their parents have rights. Not in the private schools. Private schools don't have to follow the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).


If they accepted tax payer money they would have to. If they chose not to then no.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

boatswain2PA said:


> 20 years kinda makes you part of the establishment...


That right there...


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Yes. Isn't The LRE determined on a case by case basis? Do they not do that anymore? The science is already there.


Yes, LRE is determined individually. Removal from the general education classroom should only happen when the child's disability is so severe that supplementary aids & supports/ancillary services will not be enough to provide the child with an appropriate education. LRE is about that particular kid not anyone else in the classroom.

What did you mean by "the science is already there"? Can you clarify?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> If they accepted tax payer money they would have to. If they chose not to then no.


This has been one of the bones of contention I've had with the voucher pushers on this site. They want the private schools to be allowed to continue to deny special education services AND receive public funds.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I mean the science of individual LRE placement. It must be because you quoted from the playbook. If a child is able to learn in a non LRE type classroom they dont need to be moved. 

But you knew that already.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> 20 years kinda makes you part of the establishment...


It makes me well qualified to comment on issues in education. It makes me have the background and experience to know what I am talking about.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> This has been one of the bones of contention I've had with the voucher pushers on this site. They want the private schools to be allowed to continue to deny special education services AND receive public funds.


But in reality, it would never happen. Too many taxpayers would not agree. Even if they did at first they would come to realize they really didn't want it that way after all. If they take public money they have to comply. Private can stay private and small public for profit schools can compete for the profit they hope to achieve.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> I mean the science of individual LRE placement. It must be because you quoted from the playbook. If a child is able to learn in a non LRE type classroom they dont need to be moved.
> 
> But you knew that already.


There is no such thing as a non LRE type classroom. There isn't a room marked LRE with another down the hall being the non-LRE classroom. 

LRE means the child is in whatever environment is the least restrictive for that kid with the starting point being the general education classroom.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> But in reality, it would never happen. Too many taxpayers would not agree. Even if they did at first they would come to realize they really didn't want it that way after all. If they take public money they have to comply. Private can stay private and small public for profit schools can compete for the profit they hope to achieve.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the "for profit" schools. Those are a bad idea. We've seen that here with Betsy Devos and her cronies with their for profit charters.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> There is no such thing as a non LRE type classroom. There isn't a room marked LRE with another down the hall being the non-LRE classroom.
> 
> LRE means the child is in whatever environment is the least restrictive for that kid with the starting point being the general education classroom.


You can teach an old dog new tricks. Thanks for the clarification.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on the "for profit" schools. Those are a bad idea. We've seen that here with Betsy Devos and her cronies with their for profit charters.


I hate to tell you but public schools are for profit too. They will do whatever it takes to spend every last penny of that budget and then some. Then they say they are short so no raises this year. But we do have a new baseball field. 

I have helped many schools spend that money and heard what they say in admin. State colleges too. Public schools have gotten so good it most believe they really are short of money. 

As far as Betsy, I dont trust anyone that was ever given a position just because of affiliations. I think they should be appointed by skill. That never happens anymore though.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> As far as Betsy, I dont trust anyone that was ever given a position just because of affiliations. I think they should be appointed by skill. That never happens anymore though.


I would like this paragraph 10 times if I could. I really do think we need legislation that says that Cabinet positions have to be filled by someone who actually has education, training and experience in the field. That will never happen but I can dream.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> This has been one of the bones of contention I've had with the voucher pushers on this site. They want the private schools to be allowed to continue to deny special education services AND receive public funds.


How do you feel about colleges receiving public funds?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> How do you feel about colleges receiving public funds?


Are they part of the K-12 system? No? Then your question is irrelevant as you well know.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not in the private schools. Private schools don't have to follow the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).


Hmmmm....more rules that force public schools into mediocrity (at best)?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> Private can stay private and small public for profit schools can compete for the profit they hope to achieve.


So we maintain, and worsen, the two tier education system in America, where the wealthy send their kids to effective private schools and the rest send their kids to public schools.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Are they part of the K-12 system? No? Then your question is irrelevant as you well know.


Nice dodge. They are very much relevant. They teach kids, they operate under those special rules, they get gov funding. Surely you have an opinion!


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

boatswain2PA said:


> So we maintain, and worsen, the two tier education system in America, where the wealthy send their kids to effective private schools and the rest send their kids to public schools.


Welcome to America my friend.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

What we have witnessed here is a prime example of the swamp in American education.
Entrenched in mediocrity on a good day with no remorse or accountability.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are 100% wrong. Public schools are the places where children with disabilities and their parents have rights. Not in the private schools. Private schools don't have to follow the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).


How interesting. "Parent's rights?"

Seems like the last time you were gaslighting public education to us you gave a quite defiant attitude towards parents sitting in classrooms and observing while their children were being taught. 
You were the final arbiter of what mom and dad would and would not be allowed to observe and I clearly recall you describing it as a disruption to your classroom.
Disruptive fellow students-ok.
Interested and/or concerned parents-not ok.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> How interesting. "Parent's rights?"
> 
> Seems like the last time you were gaslighting public education to us you gave a quite defiant attitude towards parents sitting in classrooms and observing while their children were being taught.
> You were the final arbiter of what mom and dad would and would not be allowed to observe and I clearly recall you describing it as a disruption to your classroom.
> ...


She has rather interesting timeline on a child’s rights. From zero to nine months, no rights whatsoever, slaughterhouse fodder, k thru 12 kids rights supersede all others, (provided they attend public schools) after grade twelve, irrelative again.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> So we maintain, and worsen, the two tier education system in America, where the wealthy send their kids to effective private schools and the rest send their kids to public schools.


No we don't. Private for profit schools will have to compete for the business. If they don't perform they won't stay in business.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It’s been proven that fifty percent of all college graduates graduated in the bottom half of their class. Makes me wonder if they all go into teaching?


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Evons hubby said:


> How do you feel about colleges receiving public funds?


 How much college education is required by law in your state?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> Private for profit schools will have to compete for the business. If they don't perform they won't stay in business.


I agree with this. 

But wouldnt it be great if those millions of kids in dismally failing schools had the opportunity to go to the private schools who have to do well to survive (instead of screaming for more money every year because they suck)?

Give parents vouchers and they can. Of course, the bureaucrat leeches who run so much of our educational systems dont like this cause it takes away their monies....


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

SLFarmMI said:


> And what makes you think the public school didn't do exactly that during the course of this kid's time in the district?


Just answering your question in the previous post


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Not looking good when it comes to public schools.









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There’s no need to beat around the bush: college remediation rates in the US are, to say the least, disappointing. Before going through the facts and statistics listed below, readers should be aware that *75% of students* required to take remedial college classes fail to graduate.

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The statistics listed below show the numbers related to remediation while answering some of the key questions associated with this topic:


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

It's probably also a symptom of us thinking that everyone should go to college, whether they have the aptitude for it or not. We really need more vocational/trade schools and to take away the stigma of attending those instead of going to college.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> But wouldnt it be great if those millions of kids in dismally failing schools had the opportunity to go to the private schools who have to do well to survive (instead of screaming for more money every year because they suck)?
> 
> Give parents vouchers and they can. Of course, the bureaucrat leeches who run so much of our educational systems dont like this cause it takes away their monies....


That was kind of my point. But taking public tax money means they have to take everyone that uses that voucher to get in there.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> It's probably also a symptom of us thinking that everyone should go to college, whether they have the aptitude for it or not. We really need more vocational/trade schools and to take away the stigma of attending those instead of going to college.


This can't be said enough. I am so sick of the "go to college or your worthless" bunch. 

The richest people I know didn't go or didn't finish college. We have to quit assuming college makes us rich.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> That was kind of my point. But taking public tax money means they have to take everyone that uses that voucher to get in there.


I agree. If they have a voucher then you have to take them. You don't get to decide they are not smart enough or athletic enough.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is almost like these public education gate keepers fear losing federal funding more than anything else, meaning units/bodies/students to private schools. They aren't concerned with these kids getting a better education, or they would have been cleaning house and doing something about it a long time ago.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> I agree. If they have a voucher then you have to take them. You don't get to decide they are not smart enough or athletic enough.


Sure. Let's look at this on a logic basis. One side says they are better than the other. The only way to find out of to put them on equal footing. The cream will rise. 

So we have "unreachable" kids? I disagree. Someone can reach them. I have teachers that didn't understand me too but I also had teachers that did.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> It is almost like these public education gate keepers fear losing federal funding more than anything else, meaning units/bodies/students to private schools. They aren't concerned with these kids getting a better education, or they would have been cleaning house and doing something about it a long time ago.


They do. It's a money making affair.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Wanda said:


> How much college education is required by law in your state?


none, my state requires 1 through 10


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Mish said:


> It's probably also a symptom of us thinking that everyone should go to college, whether they have the aptitude for it or not. We really need more vocational/trade schools and to take away the stigma of attending those instead of going to college.


If you only knew how much I like this!!!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

*A Minnesota middle school teacher taught a lesson on "different types of oppression" and then had her students separate into "Privileged Groups" and "Targeted Groups" based on their group identities — race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, and place of birth.*
Here are the class documents obtained by the Blaze from the lesson taught by Odelis Anderson, choir teacher (yes a choir teacher did this) at Sunrise Park Middle School in White Bear Lake, MN:

























White Bear Lake Area Schools actually defended the intersectional madness as a "social-emotional lesson." I would call it more of a "neo-Marxist lesson."



> "It is our responsibility to ensure that each of our students' needs are being met," added Superintendent Wayne Kazmierczak in a statement. "We know from listening to our students that our continued and sustained commitment to educational equity is a critical part of how we achieve our stated district mission and close gaps that currently exist in our student outcome measures."


Oh, by the way, this district is 90% white. So was this really supposed to be a "lesson," or more of a "Woko Haram brow-beating"?

Pay attention to what's being taught in your kids' schools, ladies and gents.


Pay attention, pay attention, pay attention.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> *A Minnesota middle school teacher taught a lesson on "different types of oppression" and then had her students separate into "Privileged Groups" and "Targeted Groups" based on their group identities — race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, and place of birth.*
> Here are the class documents obtained by the Blaze from the lesson taught by Odelis Anderson, choir teacher (yes a choir teacher did this) at Sunrise Park Middle School in White Bear Lake, MN:
> View attachment 94509
> 
> ...


Send your children to be educated by the government, don't be surprised if they get a government education. After all, if a government is not for the people and by the people, why would you expect them not to want to have the governed divided against each other, rather than focus on the MAIN source of the problem.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Woko Haram


That's funny


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## dr doright (Sep 15, 2011)

poppy said:


> This 17 year old boy only passed 3 classes in 4 years of high school but still ranked 62 out of a class of 120. He nearly made it to the upper half of his class. Doesn't say much for the school. But he was also late or absent 272 days of that 4 years. His mother says she thought he was doing well but just found out he has to start over at the 9th grade and puts all the blame on the school. Indeed it sounds like a terrible school but did his mother know why he was late or absent 272 days or where he was? Didn't she look at his report card or attend any parent/teacher conferences? Seems to be plenty of blame on both sides.
> 
> Baltimore HS student fails all but 3 classes over 4 years, ranks near top half of class | Fox News


What political party has run Baltimore for decades?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

dr doright said:


> What political party has run Baltimore for decades?


I think you meant "ruined" didn't you?


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## The Elfette (Mar 5, 2021)

Evons hubby said:


> I agree that parents could play a much larger role, but they aren’t the ones getting paid to teach! Teachers make big bucks with lots of perks and bennies, they really should earn them.


Teachers sadly DO NOT make big bucks in most places here in the US.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Public school teachers make far more over their lifetime (including their pension) than the average full time non government worker, especially considering their work hours and annual vacation, holidays, and seasonal breaks.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> *A Minnesota middle school teacher taught a lesson on "different types of oppression" and then had her students separate into "Privileged Groups" and "Targeted Groups" based on their group identities — race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, and place of birth.*
> Here are the class documents obtained by the Blaze from the lesson taught by Odelis Anderson, choir teacher (yes a choir teacher did this) at Sunrise Park Middle School in White Bear Lake, MN:
> View attachment 94509
> 
> ...


We’re paying attention.

We have a “teacher”, here, who has been brow-beating us for even being skeptical of her prescription to teach a “non-male-Eurocentric version of mathematics”, all while enthusiastically stabbing a strawman stuffed with abject racism for seeing it any other way.

These people are “teaching” your children and grandchildren... and sending you the bill.

...with an attached greeting card that says “You’re welcome, you bitter-clinging-deplorable. Now, shut your privileged cake-holes I’m the only one here who’s a teacher, so your opinions are null and void in the presence of mine.”


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> We’re paying attention.
> 
> We have a “teacher”, here, who has been brow-beating us for even being skeptical of her prescription to teach a “non-male-Eurocentric version of mathematics”, all while enthusiastically stabbing a strawman stuffed with abject racism for seeing it any other way.
> 
> ...


First of all, the only ones doing any "brow beating" are the ones who are having hissy fits that any viewpoint other than the America Uber Alles version is presented. They are the ones who are having a meltdown that anyone would dream of representing the cultures of the students sitting in the classroom -- all the cultures, not just one -- in a respectful, inclusive way. 

Maybe those same folks might want to try knocking it off with the attitude that says, "I went to school so I know all about teaching, students & education. What does any teacher know about education in the face of what I think I know? I don't want facts from someone who actually does the job."


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You know a system, a religion and a dogma. You are entrenched in failure.
Parents know their kids. Parents will always know better.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> You know a system, a religion and a dogma. You are entrenched in failure.
> Parents know their kids. Parents will always know better.


I disagree with entrenched. She is invested in failure. That is why the threat of removal of any funds is so abhorrent.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

She isn’t invested if she is playing with house money.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> She isn’t invested if she is playing with house money.


I stand corrected.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I was told once I could make 60k teaching in a prison working 5 hours a day for 5 days a week. All I had to do was get a teaching certificate and use my other education. Dont know what they pay in the schools though. I may try it out when I retire for something to do. My cousin taught diesel mechanics for 5 years after he retired and still had time to fish.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

The Elfette said:


> Teachers sadly DO NOT make big bucks in most places here in the US.


Of course they do.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Public school teachers typically earn substantially more than private school teachers.
Knowing that, one would have to wonder why go into the private school sector unless it was about something else?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> in a respectful, inclusive way


You stood alone in your opinion.
You repeated endlessly the same dogma
You got upset that no one bought your product


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

dr doright said:


> What political party has run Baltimore for decades?


The same party that is owned by the Teachers Unions



GTX63 said:


> I think you meant "ruined" didn't you?


And they ruined our schools.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> any viewpoint other than the America Uber Alles version is presented.


Mathmatics isn't cultural. Just teach EVERY kid how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, then move on to algebra and trig. Offer calculus and other more advanced MATHMATICS to those who want it.

Leave your race-baiting, America-hating cultural crap out of it.

Oh, but I forgot...the teachers unions funded "studies" show that Math is racist. 

Half of America has had enough of this crap.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> You stood alone in your opinion.
> You repeated endlessly the same dogma
> You got upset that no one bought your product


She does not stand alone in her opinions. There is just no point discussing this topic here when so many posters make it personal instead of a productive conversation.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is productive when the discussion is honest and open.
Harming children for the benefit of Unions, pensions, politics etc is no longer acceptable.
The Department of Education and their cronies are the definition of the swamp.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> She does not stand alone in her opinions. There is just no point discussing this topic here when so many posters make it personal instead of a productive conversation.


Do you think parents should have a choice of where their kids go to school?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

When a public service like education has a large majority of the parents wanting change to the system, they do not mean gender studies, 1619, or more funding.
Refusing to accept that and being tone deaf to the obvious would be the part of the conversation considered non productive, dishonest and closed minded.

Parents who care, are concerned with their own children's learning opportunities first and foremost. They are not concerned about level playing fields and fairness; they want what is best for_ their _kids. And that is the way it should be.
Everything else is gravy.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Do you think parents should have a choice of where their kids go to school?


I wonder why you ask that question when no one here has said that they don't think people should have a choice of where they go to school.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I wonder why you ask that question when no one here has said that they don't think people should have a choice of where they go to school.


There is a 35 page discussion of this subject in another area of HT. That is what my comment to @SLFarmMI was about, and she knew that, you did not, but you felt compelled to challenge my assertion. 

I am happy you support school choice. All of us in that other area of HT did too


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have read plenty of her posts. I believe she does support school choice. She just does not support public funding for schools that pick and chose who to take to keep their scores artificially high.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I have read plenty of her posts. I believe she does support school choice. She just does not support public funding for schools that pick and chose who to take to keep their scores artificially high.


I’m sure she believes that, but she’s wrong on other things too


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I have read plenty of her posts. I believe she does support school choice. She just does not support public funding for schools that pick and chose who to take to keep their scores artificially high.


So you favor those with means to have school choice, but those that can't afford to pay double for public school in reality have no choice. 

Don't you think that will widen the earning potential between the haves, and have-nots? That seem rather elitist, and I never pegged you as such.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m sure she believes that, but she’s wrong on other things too


You and I are wrong on things as well depending on who's opinion it is. Personal attacks just don't help move any discussion forward and any time education is discussed and a teacher with real experience put forward their opinion it becomes a feeding frenzy of personal attacks here and ugly generalizations.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

School choice is a farce in some areas. When there is one school in the district, choices are limited. When there is one teacher teaching the class, choice is limited. I had a parent wanting their child removed from my class, I was the only teacher teaching the subject, the only choice was the student remain in my class or pull and home school. BTW, I would have been glad for that child to be removed, totally disruptive.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

whiterock said:


> School choice is a farce in some areas. When there is one school in the district, choices are limited. When there is one teacher teaching the class, choice is limited. I had a parent wanting their child removed from my class, I was the only teacher teaching the subject, the only choice was the student remain in my class or pull and home school. BTW, I would have been glad for that child to be removed, totally disruptive.


Why do you not have the ability to to remove a disruptive student?

BTW - If the need for school choices created a market a choice might develop. There is no way you area is more remote than mine, and small schools have been created here by Mennonites .


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Administration. BTW, I retired in 06.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

whiterock said:


> Administration.


You would remove the student if it was your decision?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I would have. There was no other place for him. As I said, I was the only teacher with that subject.
I could deal with "Charles" or I could teach the class. I tried to get his schedule changed to a morning class with less students, Principal said she would do that. Never happened.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I put everything onto the individual. It comes from what is, or is not, inside the individual.


Yep.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

whiterock said:


> I would have. There was no other place for him. As I said, I was the only teacher with that subject.


It seems unfair to you as the teacher, and to the entire class that one student be allowed to interfere with the learning process. 

It also seems to reinforce to the disruptive student that their bad behavior had no consequences. 

Do you find it demoralizing that you have so little control over your class? 

Sounds like a lose/lose all the way around.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

There were few students I couldn't handle. When I taught electives, I could easily remove them. When I was the one teacher with a required course, I was pretty much stuck with them. It was unfair to the rest of the class. It was demoralizing. Part of the problem was new administration wanting to clean house of the teachers that had been there for over 10 years.
Nothing specific tor that district. Pretty common practice.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

whiterock said:


> There were few students I couldn't handle. When I taught electives, I could easily remove them. When I was the one teacher with a required course, I was pretty much stuck with them. It was unfair to the rest of the class. It was demoralizing. Part of the problem was new administration wanting to clean house of the teachers that had been there for over 10 years.
> Nothing specific tor that district. Pretty common practice.





whiterock said:


> new administration wanting to clean house of the teachers that had been there for over 10 years.
> Nothing specific tor that district. Pretty common practice.


What purpose does that practice serve?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

whiterock said:


> There were few students I couldn't handle. When I taught electives, I could easily remove them. When I was the one teacher with a required course, I was pretty much stuck with them. It was unfair to the rest of the class. It was demoralizing. Part of the problem was new administration wanting to clean house of the teachers that had been there for over 10 years.
> Nothing specific tor that district. Pretty common practice.


Interesting.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Maybe want younger teachers with less experience that draw a smaller paycheck. Maybe to bring in friends from a previous school. Maybe because they want to change the whole school. Lots of reasons or excuses.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

painterswife said:


> She just does not support public funding for schools that pick and chose who to take to keep their scores artificially high


She (meaning SLFarms) apparently agrees with school choice only if we burden the schools with the same bureaucratically failings that has led to the public schools becoming so bad.

Unless you are wealthy, then (as always) you can send your kids to a privately funded school or move to a better district.

And BTW - That's not "making it personal", that's just repeating the position she has given here.

I think most Americans with kids in public schools disagrees with that idea.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

HDRider said:


> Don't you think that will widen the earning potential between the haves, and have-nots? That seem rather elitist, and I never pegged you as such.


If a conservative were pushing for maintaining a system that continued or exacerbated such a divide (which is tied to racial disparities) they would be called racist.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

boatswain2PA said:


> She (meaning SLFarms) apparently agrees with school choice only if we burden the schools with the same bureaucratically failings that has led to the public schools becoming so bad.
> 
> Unless you are wealthy, then (as always) you can send your kids to a privately funded school or move to a better district.
> 
> ...


All she and others want is that the schools can not only skim off the cream of the students and reject those that need more help, if they want public money. It does not matter if you have kids in the system or not. Paying taxes for public educations means you get to have an opinion.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> All she and others want is that the schools can not only skim off the cream of the students and reject those that need more help


Find one instance where anyone here proposed such a thing. 

You are correct, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one should allowed to make up lies.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Find one instance where anyone here proposed such a thing.
> 
> You are correct, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one should allowed to make up lies.


I spoke only to what I believe SLfarm and some others want when public vouchers are used. What lies are you referring to that are being made up?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I spoke only to what I believe SLfarm and some others want when public vouchers are used. What lies are you referring to that are being made up?





painterswife said:


> she and others want is that the schools can not only skim off the cream of the students and reject those that need more help, if they want public money.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Where is the lie?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> You and I are wrong on things as well depending on who's opinion it is. Personal attacks just don't help move any discussion forward and any time education is discussed and a teacher with real experience put forward their opinion it becomes a feeding frenzy of personal attacks here and ugly generalizations.


“You and I are wrong on things as well depending on who's opinion it is. Personal attacks just don't help move any discussion forward.....”


I think your correct on this. The rest of the quote was a bit to much general


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Where is the lie?


You said people wanted to skim the cream off

No one said that


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> You said people wanted to skim the cream off
> 
> No one said that


I did not say anyone here said that. I said people don't want vouchers used that way. Completely true.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Why do you not have the ability to to remove a disruptive student?
> 
> BTW - If the need for school choices created a market a choice might develop. There is no way you area is more remote than mine, and small schools have been created here by Mennonites .


I don't think I would use the mennonite model as what school choice should be.

They have a religious exemption, only atemd to age 13. Not what I would choose for my child


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> I don't think I would use the Mennonite model as what school choice should be.
> 
> They have a religious exemption, only attend to age 13. Not what I would choose for my child


That is your choice, as it is their choice. 

I am simply advocating for choice, where the only choice you have now is to pay double to send your kids to private schools. Many private schools operate as part of a church. That is a very viable choice. Secular private schools are also a viable choice.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> All she and others want is that the schools can not only skim off the cream of the students and reject those that need more help, if they want public money. It does not matter if you have kids in the system or not. Paying taxes for public educations means you get to have an opinion.


What does it matter about the “cream of the students” ? Public schools are supposed to accept any and all and provide them a education. It’s a nice idea. No one left behind. THEY GET PAID FOR IT.

No reason for them to worry about loosing the better students. They are going to have to deal with ALL of the students. 

The smaller classes many want can easily be obtained by enabling those that wish to leave, to do so. Let the parents and the child and the allocated tax money for that child to go where they wish. 

Some in the public schools seem to worry about scores. I get the idea that having some easily taught and well behaved kids in the classes helps round up the overall score. It also hides the fact that some of the kids are not getting the education that the taxpayers have paid for.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Find one instance where anyone here proposed such a thing.
> 
> You are correct, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one should allowed to make up lies.


You wouldn't consider leaving disruptive special needs kids in public school and pulling the bulk of normal students out, as taking the cream?

Don't get me wrong I'm all dor vouchers, but it will syphon off the best students.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> What does it matter about the “cream of the students” ? Public schools are supposed to accept any and all and provide them a education. It’s a nice idea. No one left behind. THEY GET PAID FOR IT.
> 
> No reason for them to worry about loosing the better students. They are going to have to deal with ALL of the students.
> 
> ...


The point is that private schools want to take public money but not all the children, only the ones that will help their school results.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> You wouldn't consider leaving disruptive special needs kids in public school and pulling the bulk of normal students out, as taking the cream?
> 
> Don't get me wrong I'm all dor vouchers, but it will syphon off the best students.


Public schools can expel disruptive students and parents have to find a private school that takes disruptive kids.

Or public schools can rededicate themselves to isolating disruptive kids within their system in a more focused manner.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> The point is that private schools want to take public money but not all the children, only the ones that will help their school results.


It is not about helping the schools. It is about parents have a choice. It is about the kids getting the best education they can.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> It is not about helping the schools. It is about parents have a choice. It is about the kids getting the best education they can.


Having vouchers for only the ones that the for-profit schools want, is not really a choice for the majority of children.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Having vouchers for only the ones that the for-profit schools want, is not really a choice for the majority of children.


Why not?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> If a conservative were pushing for maintaining a system that continued or exacerbated such a divide (which is tied to racial disparities) they would be called racist.


All conservatives are racist..., didn’t you get the memo?!?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I spoke only to what I believe SLfarm and some others want when public vouchers are used. What lies are you referring to that are being made up?


For one... public schools are equal to private schools.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> For one... public schools are equal to private schools.


Where are those words in my post?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Where are those words in my post?


Not your post, slfarms


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> Not your post, slfarms


And again not in my post so has nothing to do with me or my post.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

painterswife said:


> I did not say anyone here said that. I said people don't want vouchers used that way. Completely true.


People want vouchers to escape terribly run public schools.

Seems like you are fine with vouchers....as long as schools who accept them are forced to follow the same rules that have driven public schools to failure.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Evons hubby said:


> All conservatives are racist..., didn’t you get the memo?!?


Yes, I get that daily memo via the news!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

boatswain2PA said:


> People want vouchers to escape terribly run public schools.
> 
> Seems like you are fine with vouchers....as long as schools who accept them are forced to follow the same rules that have driven public schools to failure.


I am neither for or against school vouchers as long as the school can not discriminate against the students they take. I don't think school vouchers solve any real problems in the educational system though. They just slide the problems around. Most parents still have to find a bunch of money on their own if they want their kids in a private school and the "extra" costs mount up as a way for those schools to push out those they don't really want in the first place. Quite often private schools are a way for parents to not have to be hands-on in their child's education and still boast about something. Most private schools don't always pull the best teachers either because their wages are even less than that of public school teachers.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

HDRider said:


> It seems unfair to you as the teacher, and to the entire class that one student be allowed to interfere with the learning process.
> 
> It also seems to reinforce to the disruptive student that their bad behavior had no consequences.
> 
> ...


Bad kids control the classes not teachers or the admins. I can't tell how you many times my kids entire class had to be taken out into the hall because of a child out of control.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> And again not in my post so has nothing to do with me or my post.


You asked about the lie. I just answered your question.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ziptie said:


> Bad kids control the classes not teachers or the admins. I can't tell how you many times my kids entire class had to be taken out into the hall because of a child out of control.


Never happen if teachers were allowed to control the lil buggers! My teachers maintained control of us. Of course that was easier then, they could just feed us to the first dinosaur that came walking by.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Delete


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Most parents still have to find a bunch of money on their own if they want their kids in a private school and the "extra" costs mount up as a way for those schools to push out those they don't really want in the first place. Quite often private schools are a way for parents to not have to be hands-on in their child's education and still boast about something. Most private schools don't always pull the best teachers either because their wages are even less than that of public school teachers.


Uh ok, public schools aren't free, even though tax dollars pay for it. Enroll your kids in public school, you may be paying registration, book, lab, art, club and athletic fees. Three kids in public school and we paid about $1300 before they had a class schedule.

Private schools are a way for parents to be hands off? Do your kids attend private school, because it doesn't sound like you are familiar with how they function.

Private school teachers are known as a whole to be engaged and active in their students success. Feel free to ask me how I know.
Why else would they go into a system that pays them less money and with less job security than their public school counterparts, who typically have much stronger job protections?


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Nobody is arguing for anyone not having the opportunity for you to send your kids to a private school, go for it. Just don't expect taxpayers to assist you in footing the bill. We pay taxes for public schools which all, regardless of income, can send their children to. 

Sure, they (public schools), aren't currently shining examples of what we expect from graduating students, but whose fault is that? We are the public and if things aren't going right it's up to us to correct it. I don't believe it is any individual teachers fault and I don't think anyone goes into the education field to get rich.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

gilberte said:


> Nobody is arguing for anyone not having the opportunity for you to send your kids to a private school, go for it. Yes, some are.
> Just don't expect taxpayers to assist you in footing the bill.
> I pay for a lot of things I have no say in with my tax dollars. Why start prohibiting things now?
> We pay taxes for public schools which all, regardless of income, can send their children to.
> ...


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> The point is that private schools want to take public money but not all the children, only the ones that will help their school results.


The point is “so what”. 

The public schools have a job to do. Let them do it. No need to worry about what the any of the schools are doing. Thats the parents job.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> The point is that private schools want to take public money but not all the children, only the ones that will help their school results.


Do you know what my kids did in highschool? 
They studied in most every class how to pass the finals. Not learning history, or math but how to pass the history or the math test.
The kids that went to the local facility to get a GED didn't learn what they missed in highschool; they studied every day on how to pass their final exams.
Is that for the kids benefit to learn how to pass a test or is it in the public schools benefit?
Good test results equals more taxpayer funding.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Having vouchers for only the ones that the for-profit schools want, is not really a choice for the majority of children.


The other side of that coin is that the vouchers allow opportunities for the students who want to be in school. In many, if not most cases, the students who the private schools “want” are the same students who want to be there.

We all pay into the public schools, and those who actually care about their children’s education, and have children who want to get a good education, are perfectly justified in wanting to pull their kids out of a failing system, and get them into a situation where they might do better.

For the children of well-off parents, this isn’t a problem. They have the money to pay their property taxes and still pay the tuition to a private school.

Vouchers afford this opportunity to kids whose parents can’t independently afford private school. The voucher may not completely cover the tuition, but they can bring the tuition within reach of a lot more budgets. The families who’ll be able to take advantage of them are still going to have to invest from their budgets, so the parents will be invested, and will be more likely to keep their kids invested.

At the end of the day, this debate doesn’t matter to rich kids or the poorest kids, or the kids/families who don’t really care. What we’re actually debating is whether or not we’ll allow the upper-lower and lower-middle class parents with children who actually want to be in school to keep some of what they would pay in taxes to bring private school within reach of their budgets.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> At the end of the day, this debate doesn’t matter to rich kids or the poorest kids, or the kids/families who don’t really care.* What we’re actually debating is whether or not we’ll allow the upper-lower and lower-middle class parents with children who actually want to be in school to keep some of what they would pay in taxes to bring private school within reach of their budgets.*


The statement is neither partisan, or political. It is however biased based on kindness and the desire to give a child their best chance in the future.
Delaying and debating until only a better government based solution comes along, while another generation of kids pay the price for the grownups and their agendas is heartless. Those who willingly watch school systems like Baltimore and Chicago as well as rural districts continue to gargle out diplomas for average and below average results and condone it and defend it really need some self awareness. Those who represent it should be pushing for that change or stand aside.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Delaying and debating until only a *better government based solution* comes along, while another generation of kids pay the price for the grownups and their agendas is heartless.


It is not improving. It is getting worse. We sink lower in global rank with each new class.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Find one instance where anyone here proposed such a thing.
> 
> You are correct, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one should allowed to make up lies.


How about every single time that you or one of your cronies insist that the private schools should receive public money while being allowed to deny enrollment? How about every single time that you or one of your cronies insist that the private schools should receive public money while being allowed to deny students who have special needs their special education services?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> For one... public schools are equal to private schools.


Again you prove that you either did not read the research, did not understand the research or both. When you hold sociodemographic factors constant and compare students in the same sociodemographic group with the only difference being public vs private, there is no difference. I realize those facts are inconvenient for you but they are indeed true.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> How about every single time that you or one of your cronies insist that the private schools should receive public money while being allowed to deny enrollment? How about every single time that you or one of your cronies insist that the private schools should receive public money while being allowed to deny students who have special needs their special education services?


Dogma


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Dogma


Oh, I agree that you are all about dogma. You spew your dogma like a volcano, facts and reality be darned.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again you prove that you either did not read the research, did not understand the research or both. When you hold sociodemographic factors constant and compare students in the same sociodemographic group with the only difference being public vs private, there is no difference. I realize those facts are inconvenient for you but they are indeed true.


Statist propaganda


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Statist propaganda


Right, anything that doesn't support your beliefs is propaganda. 

Just another example of you spewing dogma, facts and reality be darned.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again you prove that you either did not read the research, did not understand the research or both. When you hold sociodemographic factors constant and compare students in the same sociodemographic group with the only difference being public vs private, there is no difference. I realize those facts are inconvenient for you but they are indeed true.


Bureaucratic fear mongering


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I marvel at how someone can be so entrenched in failure, so apathetic to a child's future and the current mess of the education system. How they can continue to tow the government/union rope without an iota of concern for the damage being done now.
That kind of sociopathic response should not belong to anyone responsible for our kids.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Right, anything that doesn't support your beliefs is propaganda.
> 
> Just another example of you spewing dogma, facts and reality be darned.


It isn't complicated. I'll erase the blackboard and write it again.
Public schools are failing. 
Children are being harmed.
What are you doing about it?
I asked you about 1500 posts ago, how did your school board respond when you submitted your list of improvements?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> It isn't complicated. I'll erase the blackboard and write it again.
> Public schools are failing.
> Children are being harmed.
> What are you doing about it?
> I asked you about 1500 posts ago, how did your school board respond when you submitted your list of improvements?


I'll type it slowly and maybe you'll get it. Research shows that the belief that private schools are better is a myth. 

Why is it that those who are pushing vouchers are afraid to make the private schools that they claim are so much better step up and compete on a level playing field? No cherry picking students, no denial of services, no special rules. Let them step up, take all students, provide all services and follow the same rules. Then let's compare results.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You are supplying answers where no question was asked.
It would be better if you typed a response relevant to the questions rather than just slowly.
I consistently speak of the harm done to children by the system you refuse to help people escape from.
Please find the post I made referring to vouchers. I'll wait.
My wife and daughter's time in public school service as well as my own experience in the malaise are all the research I needed to confirm it is outdated, bloated and ineffective.
I


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm going to guess that that list of your suggested improvements to the current public school system have never made it any farther than your monitor, so I'll quit asking if you ever presented it to anyone that mattered.
A muckety muck of research, studies and think tanks, as well as your 20 years of standing in the middle of it, means about zero with Mary cannot properly read or count or function in a job.
That is what is important. Nothing else.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I'm going to guess that that list of your suggested improvements to the current public school system have never made it any farther than your monitor, so I'll quit asking if you ever presented it to anyone that mattered.
> A muckety muck of research, studies and think tanks, as well as your 20 years of standing in the middle of it, means about zero with Mary cannot properly read or count or function in a job.
> That is what is important. Nothing else.


So, basically, you've got nothing other than your own bloviating. After all, who needs research when you have your dearly held beliefs?

BTW, your guess is wrong but you won't believe that and I don't really care if you do.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'll type it slowly and maybe you'll get it. Research shows that the belief that private schools are better is a myth.
> 
> Why is it that those who are pushing vouchers are afraid to make the private schools that they claim are so much better step up and compete on a level playing field? No cherry picking students, no denial of services, no special rules. Let them step up, take all students, provide all services and follow the same rules. Then let's compare results.


Why should they all operate under the same rules ? It’s not yours or my business what or where a parent wishes their child to attend. And it does not matter what the “private” schools standards are. The government has a program set up that supposedly insures that all who wish to get a education can do so. And get funding for every student in the building. Any other programs do not matter. 

It seems perfectly acceptable for some to watch a student such as mentioned in the original post to continue for years not getting a education. As posted by some, lots of people are responsible for the poor performance, including the student, parents and teachers. It was probably a lost cause a long time ago. 

However, the only ones that seem to be TAKING MONEY for poor results and NOT RESPONSIBILITY are the public school administrators and teachers.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Just think, with a voucher system and free choice by the parent on the their choice of schools the child attends, the only people responsible for years of failed eduction would be the parents.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why should they all operate under the same rules ? It’s not yours or my business what or where a parent wishes their child to attend. And it does not matter what the “private” schools standards are. The government has a program set up that supposedly insures that all who wish to get a education can do so. And get funding for every student in the building. Any other programs do not matter.
> 
> It seems perfectly acceptable for some to watch a student such as mentioned in the original post to continue for years not getting a education. As posted by some, lots of people are responsible for the poor performance, including the student, parents and teachers. It was probably a lost cause a long time ago.
> 
> However, the only ones that seem to be TAKING MONEY for poor results and NOT RESPONSIBILITY are the public school administrators and teachers.


Why should the private schools be allowed to get public money and continue to cherry pick students, deny services and operate under special rules? 

What exactly do you think that school could have done to educate a student who did not show up? How exactly is it the school's fault that the kid did not show up? Can you show me anywhere in the article in the OP where the parent or the student took any responsibility?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should the private schools be allowed to get public money and continue to cherry pick students, deny services and operate under special rules?


Because there are kids out there losing out on opportunity and a better future. 
That is the only reason needed. The only one.
Just to play along here, so what if an option isn't perfect in the beginning? Public school has had 100 years to fix itself and more and here we are listening to more of same.
Sort it out if need be but holding kids hostage for agendas is not cool.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

If the young man failed all but 3 classes in four years, how did he advance to the next grade level. IMHO he should have been held back until he could pass the 9th grade.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> If the young man failed all but 3 classes in four years, how did he advance to the next grade level. IMHO he should have been held back until he could pass the 9th grade.


Because, in every district I have ever taught in, a parent has the final say in whether or not a student repeats a grade. They must give consent.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Because there are kids out there losing out on opportunity and a better future.
> That is the only reason needed. The only one.
> Just to play along here, so what if an option isn't perfect in the beginning? Public school has had 100 years to fix itself and more and here we are listening to more of same.
> Sort it out if need be but holding kids hostage for agendas is not cool.


I call BS.
How does cherry picking students and rejecting any student who may need extra support providing those students with "opportunity and a better future"?
How does denying special education services to students with IEPs providing those students with "opportunity and a better future"?

Providing public money to private schools while allowing them to cherry pick, deny services and operate under special rules is wrong.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> If the young man failed all but 3 classes in four years, how did he advance to the next grade level. IMHO he should have been held back until he could pass the 9th grade.


So, you'd be ok with an 18 year old (or older because you want him "held back until he could pass the 9th grade") in class with your 14 year old?

Did you miss the fact that he was truant 272 days during high school alone? What is holding him back going to do when he didn't show up during the first go round?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should the private schools be allowed to get public money and continue to cherry pick students, deny services and operate under special rules?
> 
> What exactly do you think that school could have done to educate a student who did not show up? How exactly is it the school's fault that the kid did not show up? Can you show me anywhere in the article in the OP where the parent or the student took any responsibility?


As I posted, lots of people were probably responsible for the kids education failure. I will now also say, from my limited knowledge of this situation, the people that got PAID FOR YEARS WITH TAX MONEY was the school teachers. 


Why not allow the private schools to operate under different rules and get tax money allocated for the students they teach. Those they do not accept are not left out of a education. The public school will handle it, and get paid for it, no matter what.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, you'd be ok with an 18 year old (or older because you want him "held back until he could pass the 9th grade") in class with your 14 year old?
> 
> Did you miss the fact that he was truant 272 days during high school alone? What is holding him back going to do when he didn't show up during the first go round?


I believe most larger schools have special classes for kids with learning issues. Since this young man grades were near the middle of his class with 0.13 GPA there are some serious issues that need to be addressed within the whole school.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because, in every district I have ever taught in, a parent has the final say in whether or not a student repeats a grade. They must give consent.


See, thats a good reason for private schools.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> I call BS.
> How does cherry picking students and rejecting any student who may need extra support providing those students with "opportunity and a better future"?
> How does denying special education services to students with IEPs providing those students with "opportunity and a better future"?
> 
> Providing public money to private schools while allowing them to cherry pick, deny services and operate under special rules is wrong.


WHO gets hurt? ALL of the students still have school opportunities. Let the parents decide. Not doing as the parents wish is wrong.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, you'd be ok with an 18 year old (or older because you want him "held back until he could pass the 9th grade") in class with your 14 year old?
> 
> Did you miss the fact that he was truant 272 days during high school alone? What is holding him back going to do when he didn't show up during the first go round?


Why does that 18 year old need to be in class with a 14 year old. I suspect the answer is part of the problem.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> I believe most larger schools have special classes for kids with learning issues. Since this young man grades were near the middle of his class with 0.13 GPA there are some serious issues that need to be addressed within the whole school.


Why are you assuming he has "learning issues"? It appears from the article that he has attendance issues for sure.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because, in every district I have ever taught in, a parent has the final say in whether or not a student repeats a grade. They must give consent.


If there were a private school that had as dismal a results as been exhibited by many public school systems, they would be out of business. Yet, failing public school districts persist and it's participants/benefactors are enriched. Which is why many of those that profit from their failure are so against letting its victims escape.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why are you assuming he has "learning issues"? It appears from the article that he has attendance issues for sure.


Apparently he didn't learn, 0.13 GPA


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> WHO gets hurt? ALL of the students still have school opportunities. Let the parents decide. Not doing as the parents wish is wrong.


You're pushing the myth that parents don't have school choice. Parents can choose whatever type of school they want. You want to give public funds to private schools while allowing them to discriminate. That is wrong.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> Apparently he didn't learn, 0.13 GPA


Apparently he didn't attend. 272 days late or absent. That's just in high school. Those kinds of attendance problems don't, in my experience, suddenly appear. The chances are fairly high that he had lousy attendance throughout his school career. What do you think the chances are, with that sort of attendance, that he was diligent in completing and returning assignments?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Apparently he didn't attend. 272 days late or absent. That's just in high school. Those kinds of attendance problems don't, in my experience, suddenly appear. The chances are fairly high that he had lousy attendance throughout his school career. What do you think the chances are, with that sort of attendance, that he was diligent in completing and returning assignments?


Looks like IMHO another young person with a pretty bleak future.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why does that 18 year old need to be in class with a 14 year old. I suspect the answer is part of the problem.


Because you need to have a teacher to teach those classes and a classroom to have them in. How many sections of 9th grade math, for example, do you want to require the school to staff? Some for the 9th graders on their first time around plus how many for the ones who are repeating over and over? A school is not like Mary Poppins' bag with endless space to pull teachers and classrooms out of.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should the private schools be allowed to get public money and continue to cherry pick students, deny services and operate under special rules?
> 
> What exactly do you think that school could have done to educate a student who did not show up? How exactly is it the school's fault that the kid did not show up? Can you show me anywhere in the article in the OP where the parent or the student took any responsibility?


Forget about that tired line about the “level playing field” for just a second. There is a singular fact that is driving this entire discussion:* the US primary education system once was great, now is terrible, and is getting worse by the day. *. That is fact.

Something needs to be done, and it doesn’t appear that those of us on the outside can find agreement with those of you in the establishment. Can you really blame the parents who want to get their kids out and try something else (I think you belittleingly refer to them as “voucher pushers”)?

Maybe private schooling isn’t any better, maybe the studies are manipulative and it really is better, but, either way, their kids are the ones operating in the very narrow window of time that makes up their primary education while we debate the politics and merits of the education system. They don’t have time to mess around while the establishment plays politics and grants themself power to decide what’s best for them.

Bottom line:
The current system, to which you’re party, is a dumpster fire of failure. Our tax dollars pay for the system that pays you. A few of us want to take our dollars and put them into a chance at something different for our children.

How does it reflect on you that you denigrate us for wanting to do something else with our money?

Why do you want that alternative approach to be something exclusively available to the wealthy?

Who do you think you are?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> Looks like IMHO another young person with a pretty bleak future.


True. Maybe his mother should have done her job.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> True. Maybe his mother should have done her job.


Since he was near the middle of his class I guess there are a lot of parents not doing their jobs or the school needs to figure a way to help these kids. That seems to be a trend that needs to be dealt with.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Bottom line:
> The current system, to which you’re party, is a dumpster fire of failure. Our tax dollars pay for the system that pays you. A few of us want to take our dollars and put them into a chance at something different for our children.


Let's put aside the fable that the current system is "a dumpster fire of failure". You keep wanting to push the myth that you don't have the right to put your kid into whatever type of schooling that you want. You have that right and have had it for a very long time. But that's not good enough for you. You also want public funds to pay for non-public schools AND allow those schools to cherry pick students, to deny services to students and to operate under special rules. That is just plain wrong. 



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> How does it reflect on you that you denigrate us for wanting to do something else with their money?


How does it reflect on you that you want public funds to support schools that cherry pick students, deny special education services and deny students their due process rights? 



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Why do you want that alternative approach to be something exclusively available to the rich?


Cherry picking students and denying services & rights isn't an "alternative approach". It has nothing to do with teaching & learning and everything to do with declaring that "this kid is better than that kid". 



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Who do you think you are?


Someone who has just as much right to express an opinion as you do. And it is my opinion that using public funds to support non-public schools which are allowed to cherry pick students, deny special education services to students with special needs and deny due process rights is wrong.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Let's put aside the fable that the current system is "a dumpster fire of failure". You keep wanting to push the myth that you don't have the right to put your kid into whatever type of schooling that you want. You have that right and have had it for a very long time. But that's not good enough for you. You also want public funds to pay for non-public schools AND allow those schools to cherry pick students, to deny services to students and to operate under special rules. That is just plain wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You said all that yourself. 
No one else made you look like that.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You said all that yourself.
> No one else made you look like that.


It would just be mildly amusing, if it was coming from someone with a different occupation.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You said all that yourself.
> No one else made you look like that.


Yes or no. Should private schools be required to accept students with special needs and provide special education services if they receive public funds? If no, why not? Public schools are required to accept students with special needs and provide services so why, if they receive public funds, should private schools not be required to do the same?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> You're pushing the myth that parents don't have school choice. Parents can choose whatever type of school they want. You want to give public funds to private schools while allowing them to discriminate. That is wrong.


Does not matter what they choose, if their child’s allocated tax money is not available to be used at the school they see fit. 

The only discrimination I am seeing is not being rich enough to have a practical choice.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because you need to have a teacher to teach those classes and a classroom to have them in. How many sections of 9th grade math, for example, do you want to require the school to staff? Some for the 9th graders on their first time around plus how many for the ones who are repeating over and over? A school is not like Mary Poppins' bag with endless space to pull teachers and classrooms out of.


If its what is required to do the job, then they best figure it out. Quit taking the money and not providing a decent return on the investment.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> True. Maybe his mother should have done her job.


Might have helped. Your right.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Why does a student taking their tax allocated school funding to a school of their choice hurt the students in other schools ? Those students still have their tax allocated money for their education. No harm done.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Does not matter what they choose, if their child’s allocated tax money is not available to be used at the school they see fit.
> 
> The only discrimination I am seeing is not being rich enough to have a practical choice.


Public schools are required to take everyone who shows up. Private schools are allowed to cherry pick which students they will allow to attend. They can discriminate against any student for whatever reason they want. IMO, if they want public funds, they should not be allowed to continue to do so.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why does a student taking their tax allocated school funding to a school of their choice hurt the students in other schools ? Those students still have their tax allocated money for their education. No harm done.


It doesn't harm the student. It harms those that are paid/profit from the status quo, which is why it is verboten to them.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why does a student taking their tax allocated school funding to a school of their choice hurt the students in other schools ? Those students still have their tax allocated money for their education. No harm done.


What part of it's wrong to provide public funding for private schools while they are allowed to discriminate against students in their enrollment practices, deny special education services and deny due process rights are you not getting?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again you prove that you either did not read the research, did not understand the research or both. When you hold sociodemographic factors constant and compare students in the same sociodemographic group with the only difference being public vs private, there is no difference. I realize those facts are inconvenient for you but they are indeed true.


I read it and understood it. The single group that proved out to be equal were the ones from the low end of the scale. The poorest kids.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> You're pushing the myth that parents don't have school choice. Parents can choose whatever type of school they want. You want to give public funds to private schools while allowing them to discriminate. That is wrong.


How many times do you have to repeat it to make it true? A million? You must be getting close, and still no one buys your lie


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> How many times do you have to repeat it to make it true? A million? You must be getting close, and still no one buys your lie


It isn't always to convince anyone else. A lie is often repeated to convince themselves.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes or no. Should private schools be required to accept students with special needs and provide special education services if they receive public funds? If no, why not? Public schools are required to accept students with special needs and provide services so why, if they receive public funds, should private schools not be required to do the same?


People with special needs could apply their voucher to schools that served them best. You know that. You just have one line, and you think repeating it a million times makes it true. It just makes you look like a fanatic.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> How many times do you have to repeat it to make it true? A million? You must be getting close, and still no one buys your lie


How long is the jail sentence for putting your kid in a non-public school? Were your children removed from your custody when you placed them in a non-public school? Were you tarred, feathered and run out of town for placing them in a non-public school? Did you lose your job? Did any of that happen? Or were you able to place your kids in any kind of school you wanted as well as homeschooling without incident? So stop pushing the lie that parents do not have the choice to place their kids in whatever type of school they want. 

Are private schools allowed to discriminate against students enrolling in their school or are they required to accept all students? If you're honest, which appears to be difficult for you, you will admit that they are absolutely allowed to deny enrollment to whatever students they wish. And people like you want to allow them to continue to do so and receive public funds while they do.

So, the one pushing a lie is you.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> People with special needs could apply their voucher to schools that served them best. You know that. You just have one line, and you think repeating it a million times makes it true. It just makes you look like a fanatic.


Private schools are allowed to deny special education services to students with IEPs. That is absolutely a fact. Your denial of that fact is simply your agenda speaking. It makes you look like a fool, a liar or both.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Private schools are allowed to deny special education services to students with IEPs. That is absolutely a fact. Your denial of that fact is simply your agenda speaking. It makes you look like a fool, a liar or both.











The Wide Range of School Options for Children With Special Needs


If you're not completely happy with your disabled child's public school experience, you'll need to know what your options are.




www.verywellfamily.com


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> What part of it's wrong to provide public funding for private schools while they are allowed to discriminate against students in their enrollment practices, deny special education services and deny due process rights are you not getting?



No student is being denied a education, not one single one. As long as every student has the opportunity to get a education, any other concern is not the school or teachers business. The only discrimination I am seeing is financial, caused by the public system and its teachers forcing students into places and situations the students family does not desire.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> What part of it's wrong to provide public funding for private schools while they are allowed to discriminate against students in their enrollment practices, deny special education services and deny due process rights are you not getting?


Any legal student from this country is part of the public. The public collected school money belongs to that student and family. If the student attends a “private school” then I guess the private school is doing the job for the public schools, and should have that students money. 

What part of providing a place available to all students to get a education that the public schools provide, do you not understand? No student is being left out or ignored. As long as this function is available then, its no concern what other schools and students do elsewhere.

This should be about EDUCATION, at the parents place of choice. Any and all concerns after that takes second place. 

Quit the financial discrimination.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> Quit the financial discrimination.


She knows the system she supports cannot bear competition,


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> The Wide Range of School Options for Children With Special Needs
> 
> 
> If you're not completely happy with your disabled child's public school experience, you'll need to know what your options are.
> ...


Did you see anywhere in your article where any private school is REQUIRED to provide special education services? No, you didn't because they aren't. The public schools are required to provide those services to both public and private school students. If private schools want public funds, then they should be required to step up and provide the services themselves.

https://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/speced/privateschools/idea.pdf


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Seems the public schools are handling a wide variety of methods to prevent discrimination stoping a student from getting a education. I think thats a good thing. Now if they would just stop the financial greed problem we would probably have a pretty darn good system available for education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> She knows the system she supports cannot bear competition,


And you continue to spout lies. Why are you so afraid of private schools being required to compete fairly? Afraid that if they aren't allow to cherry pick students, deny services and deny due process that your little fantasy will crumble? Let's have a fair competition. Same students, same services, same rules.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did you see anywhere in your article where any private school is REQUIRED to provide special education services? No, you didn't because they aren't. The public schools are required to provide those services to both public and private school students. If private schools want public funds, then they should be required to step up and provide the services themselves.
> 
> https://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/speced/privateschools/idea.pdf


Pay to play

Your system takes money by force, and gives you one choice of a failed system, or mediocre at best. 

Let the money go where the student is best served. Let the money do the best good.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> And you continue to spout lies. Why are you so afraid of private schools being required to compete fairly? Afraid that if they aren't allow to cherry pick students, deny services and deny due process that your little fantasy will crumble? Let's have a fair competition. Same students, same services, same rules.


Get some new material.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Any legal student from this country is part of the public. The public collected school money belongs to that student and family. If the student attends a “private school” then I guess the private school is doing the job for the public schools, and should have that students money.
> 
> What part of providing a place available to all students to get a education that the public schools provide, do you not understand? No student is being left out or ignored. As long as this function is available then, its no concern what other schools and students do elsewhere.
> 
> ...


Quit the cherry picking, denial of services and special rules.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Get some new material.


Try facing reality and developing some honesty.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Pay to play
> 
> Your system takes money by force, and gives you one choice of a failed system, or mediocre at best.
> 
> Let the money go where the student is best served. Let the money do the best good.


Stop letting private schools skate along with their special privileges if they want public funds.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did you see anywhere in your article where any private school is REQUIRED to provide special education services? No, you didn't because they aren't. The public schools are required to provide those services to both public and private school students. If private schools want public funds, then they should be required to step up and provide the services themselves.
> 
> https://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/speced/privateschools/idea.pdf


Why should private schools be required to provide duplicate services already available and paid for with public funds. That’s just stupid!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Why should private schools be required to provide duplicate services already available and paid for with public funds. That’s just stupid!


If they want public funds, then they should have to provide their own special education services.

Why should they get public funds as the voucher pushers want AND be allowed to not provide special education services?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Right, anything that doesn't support your beliefs is propaganda.
> 
> Just another example of you spewing dogma, facts and reality be darned.


One biased study does not a consensus make.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> If they want public funds, then they should have to provide their own special education services.
> 
> Why should they get public funds as the voucher pushers want AND be allowed to not provide special education services?


Tax payer have paid for those special services all ready, why duplicate?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Let's put aside the fable that the current system is "a dumpster fire of failure". You keep wanting to push the myth that you don't have the right to put your kid into whatever type of schooling that you want. You have that right and have had it for a very long time.


That’s just more strawmen. I have never, even once, said that parents don’t have the right to choose their children’s’ schooling. You rely heavily on strawmen, but points scored against arguments never made are worthless. No one, not one single person here, has made that claim, so stop poking at it. It makes you look silly.

What I did say, and I stand behind it, is that most parents can’t afford to send their kids to private school as it is, and vouchers would bring that within reach of some of the less affluent. Right now, only the well-off can afford it. Vouchers will spread that opportunity around a little. I thought we were all for equal opportunities.

And, yes, it is a fact that the public school system is failing. The system you support (and, coincidentally, supports you) is not keeping pace with the rest of the world. What was once the best system in the world, now trails behind most of the rest of the world. Just as you like to keep citing a study that says that private school is no better than public, the studies show that our public system is falling behind. What was that line about “cherry picking”?



SLFarmMI said:


> But that's not good enough for you. You also want public funds to pay for non-public schools AND allow those schools to cherry pick students, to deny services to students and to operate under special rules. That is just plain wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those “public funds” are my money. Like a lot of people, I don’t have children in school, yet I still pay for the system that pays you. You don’t have to worry. No matter what, my contribution to the “public fund” will always be there to finance your program to indoctrinate children with the gender-fluid multi-cultural version of mathematics.

What I’m arguing in support of is for less-affluent parents who have children in the failing public school system, TODAY, to take the money they would have paid to your broken system and try something else while they still have a chance. Once their kids graduate, you’ll get their money back, and you can use it to buy those non-Eurocentric “Black Physics” text books you so desperately want.



SLFarmMI said:


> Yes or no. Should private schools be required to accept students with special needs and provide special education services if they receive public funds? If no, why not? Public schools are required to accept students with special needs and provide services so why, if they receive public funds, should private schools not be required to do the same?


No.

And, the reason why is simple: private school is often a last-ditch effort, taken at the expense of parents whose children are being failed by their public school, and they want something different or better for their kids. Forcing those schools to take children who either shouldn’t or don’t want to be there, defeats the purpose, and will ultimately hold back those who should and do, and whose parents are willing to personally invest in getting their children out of the dumpster fire that is the public system.

The parents taking out vouchers are only taking funds that they and we paid in on behalf of their student. Once their student is done with school, the money they’re paying in reverts back to the public fund. The only thing it takes from the indoctrination fund that pays your salary is the money accrued for the indoctrination of that one child, who is no longer consuming the valuable indoctrination resources of that school.

If the parent who opts for the voucher program, and is willing to invest the rest of what it would cost to secure a desk in a private school, would like a school that teaches the trans-gender version of algebra, they can select that school. Otherwise, they can choose one that just teaches the regular kind of algebra.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A wealthy family has more options than a working class/poor family when their kids are failing in a public school, for whatever reason.
That doesn't sound like a level playing field at all, and rather discriminatory.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Only one person here has a failing argument. The others are fair, and quite good.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I think the typical reader made up their minds on this subject about 400 posts back.
"Myth" "Cherry Pick" "Discriminatory" and the usual suspects of talking points and mantra given to lifers from the unions and DOE whisperers reflects the system as a whole. 
No flexibility, no willingness to do for kids first rather than self interests.
It is too bad really, because eventually parents will be backing out from this system to the point of deep impact, and I doubt the administration sycophants will be saying anything new or different then either.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Only one person here has a failing argument. The others are fair, and quite good.


Right, it's "fair" to provide public money to both systems and require only one to accept all students.
It's "fair" to provide public money to both systems and require only one to provide all the services that students need.
It's "fair" to provide public money to both systems and require only one to follow the rules regarding due process.

It's rather obvious that you have no idea of what "fair" means. The "failing argument" is yours.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s just more strawmen. I have never, even once, said that parents don’t have the right to choose their children’s’ schooling. You rely heavily on strawmen, but points scored against arguments never made are worthless. No one, not one single person here, has made that claim, so stop poking at it. It makes you look silly.
> 
> What I did say, and I stand behind it, is that most parents can’t afford to send their kids to private school as it is, and vouchers would bring that within reach of some of the less affluent. Right now, only the well-off can afford it. Vouchers will spread that opportunity around a little. I thought we were all for equal opportunities.
> 
> ...


Yes, people have said outright as well as implied that parents do not have the choice of where to send their kids. 

I've cited multiple studies, not one as you want to imply, and the fact is that type of system does not make a difference but socioeconomic factors do. BTW, you are citing one test taken every three years at one age level. 

"Indoctrination", 'non-Eurocentric 'Black Physics'", "trans-gender version of algebra" -- Not even close to the truth. Students should absolutely be taught that it wasn't only white Europeans who made contributions to a variety of fields. They should be taught in a way that respects and values their cultures and not be provided everything through a Eurocentric lens. Or would you prefer that they be taught, for example, that indigenous people in America were, as one poster on another thread expressed it, people with no civilization and no government living in mud huts? Teaching in a culturally sensitive, inclusive way is a far cry from the ridiculous phrases you used.

"I thought we were all for equal opportunities." Hmm, seems you don't really believe that. Otherwise you wouldn't be supporting the provision of public funds to schools while allowing them to deny services to students. Why, if the private schools are receiving public funds, should the public schools have to continue to provide special education services to students sitting in those private schools? Why should the private schools not have to step up and do it themselves?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Quit the cherry picking, denial of services and special rules.


Why ?




The public schools are there to teach anyone and everyone that wishes to be there. What the other schools do are not preventing the public schools from doing their job.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Is this how to handle issues with students? Just continue to explain things one way over and over and either they get it or they don't? It is their problem not the teachers?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> If they want public funds, then they should have to provide their own special education services.
> 
> Why should they get public funds as the voucher pushers want AND be allowed to not provide special education services?


There are special education private schools. Thats what they do, and seem to do it well. They do it VOLUNTARILY, not because they are forced to like the public schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, you want the public schools to be supported by public funds and have to "teach anyone and everyone that wishes to be there" but you want the private schools to be supported by public funds and only have to teach those that they deem "worthy" to be in their schools, be able to deny services to students and not have to follow the same rules even though they are being supported by public funds? 

Really? That seems right to you?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> There are special education private schools. Thats what they do, and seem to do it well. They do it VOLUNTARILY, not because they are forced to like the public schools.


Never said there weren't. 

The problem is that you appear to want private schools to be able to receive public funding and refuse to provide special education services to students.

There are students with special needs sitting in private schools right now. If I recall correctly more than 60% of private schools in this country have students with IEPs enrolled in their schools. Who do you think is tasked with providing the special education services they are entitled to receive? I'll give you a hint -- it isn't the private school. Why should that be allowed to continue if private schools get public funds? Why should they get voucher money and still be allowed to task the public school district with providing services?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> There are special education private schools. Thats what they do, and seem to do it well. They do it VOLUNTARILY, not because they are forced to like the public schools.


Lol, I recall being in class when the local music store owner came in to hawk instruments to the class. This was a yearly thing. Of course the parents weren't there and we are went nuts over the horns, the strings, the drums, etc. 
We took the forms home and mom and pop financed the trumpet for 30 months at $25 a month or some such. 
Of course then we needed lessons. It didn't matter, come Christmas or Easter or whatever program the poor tired band teacher put on, we sounded terrible. The parents clapped dutifully and took plenty of pictures. Half of us dropped out and left our folks to pay that horn off.
Later in private school, the band leader and his students put on some of the most fantastic musical presentations I had heard from kids our age.
He had talented students that wanted to be there. The ones who still needed lessons and experience were taught in class until they were ready. Was that fair? Yep. Fair to everyone's ears, and fair to the kid who didn't have to be embarrassed for the sake of "playing in front of everyone."
That same thing happened with our three kids as they went thru public and private schools.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should they get voucher money and still be allowed to task the public school district with providing services?


I dunno, because it helps kids. Maybe one, maybe a lot more.
It helps kids.
Is is tasking public schools to do what they are supposed to? Teach?
It sounds like public schools aren't doing their jobs. It sounds like they are over worked, understaffed.
Kids are definitely paying the price for it. So taking the burden off them a bit shouldn't be a bother. Then with fewer kids maybe you won't feel like teaching is such a "task",


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't know if you still use red ink, but I will have to go old school and make a correction.
It isn't public money when you are speaking to a parent; it is their money.
Their money taken by the government for the benefit of their child's education.
"Public" sounds so vague and impersonal and kind of sneaky, sort of like taxing someone before they see it on their paycheck.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I dunno, because it helps kids. Maybe one, maybe a lot more.
> It helps kids.
> Is is tasking public schools to do what they are supposed to? Teach?
> It sounds like public schools aren't doing their jobs. It sounds like they are over worked, understaffed.
> Kids are definitely paying the price for it. So taking the burden off them a bit shouldn't be a bother. Then with fewer kids maybe you won't feel like teaching is such a "task",





GTX63 said:


> I don't know if you still use red ink, but I will have to go old school and make a correction.
> It isn't public money when you are speaking to a parent; it is their money.
> Their money taken by the government for the benefit of their child's education.
> "Public" sounds so vague and impersonal and kind of sneaky, sort of like taxing someone before they see it on their paycheck.


"Public money" is an appropriate term to use when referencing tax money. "Taking public schools" is also an appropriate term that means "assigning to the public schools".

Why should private schools be allowed to receive public money while being allowed to continue to deny providing special education services to the students with IEPs who are enrolled in those private schools? Why should they be allowed to continue to avoid doing that job if they receive public money?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm beginning to believe you are a bot.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Right, it's "fair" to provide public money to both systems


exactly! And you really should have stopped right there!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Public money" is an appropriate term to use when referencing tax money. "Taking public schools" is also an appropriate term that means "assigning to the public schools".
> 
> Why should private schools be allowed to receive public money while being allowed to continue to deny providing special education services to the students with IEPs who are enrolled in those private schools? Why should they be allowed to continue to avoid doing that job if they receive public money?


Sorry, you don't get to define my money for me. It is mine even if Uncle Sugar takes it it is still mine.

Because we don't let good enough be the enemy of perfect, especially when so many public schools well, suck.

Why are you allowing these kids to be victims of a rotting education system?
Why are you watching them come into schools every day and not doing something about it?
Why are you waiting for someone else to help these kids or some other plan that only fits your preset mold of how education should work?
Why continue to use talking points?
If you went before a group of parents with your spiel, you understand how few would buy your time share scheme? They might take a flyer while pretending to get a call on their cell phone so they could get out of there.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> exactly! And you really should have stopped right there!


Fair is where pigs go to get a ribbon.

Whenever someone tries to push "fair" over results, it is usually for the wrong reasons and anything but fair.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> exactly! And you really should have stopped right there!


How unsurprising that you support private schools being allowed to discriminate and not provide services.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Sorry, you don't get to define my money for me. It is mine even if Uncle Sugar takes it it is still mine.
> 
> Because we don't let good enough be the enemy of perfect, especially when so many public schools well, suck.
> 
> ...


Why are you afraid to answer the question? Why should private schools get public funds while pushing off the job of providing special education services for their students to the public schools?

Why are you continuing to push the myth that private schools are so much better when the research does not support that belief?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Cuz I went to both, my kids went to both, my family has worked in both.
See experience is not a myth.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I'm beginning to believe you are a bot.


I'm beginning to believe you are afraid that opening your mind and stepping outside your preconceived notions of "private school good, public school bad" will make your head explode. It won't you know.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I would support most any program to allows poor kids and those who struggle in the current system to go where they want with the money that public school is robbing them of. 
That would include flaws and bugs inherent with any new product.
I don't care about your politics, your union, your retirement or your ideology.
I care about kids.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is ok to be apathetic about schools. It is ok to be apathetic about kids.
It isn't ok when they are in your charge and you willingly allow them to continue in an atmosphere that isn't working for them.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If you look close you will see a reoccurring them.
I like kids.
I dislike seeing their opportunities wasted.
I dislike even more those who use kids for ulterior purposes.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I would support most any program to allows poor kids and those who struggle in the current system to go where they want with the money that public school is robbing them of.
> That would include flaws and bugs inherent with any new product.
> I don't care about your politics, your union, your retirement or your ideology.
> I care about kids.


Then, yes or no, do you support requiring private schools that receive public funds to provide special education services to the students with IEPs who are enrolled in those schools? 

Yes or no, do you support requiring private schools taking anyone who wants to enroll if those schools receive public funds?

Yes or no, do you support requiring private schools that receive public funds to provide the same services (ELL, homeless, etc.) that the public schools have to?

Yes or no, do you support requiring private schools that receive public funds to follow due process rules?

Let's see if you really "care about kids".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm not trying to convince you. You are part of the problem, not the solution.
You are trying to politicize a child's right to quality education as their family chooses.
BTW, kids shouldn't have to be held hostage by an "either or".
You just do the right thing. Get them out of the ghetto school, the incompetent classroom or the school that won't stop the bullying. One kid is more important than all of your rules and clauses and prohibitions, which are just roadblocks.
Maybe you should get out from behind your desk and get in to one of theirs.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is like listening to a doctor base a patient's treatment only with hospitals or specialists they are aligned with.
I don't know when or if you forgot the principal reasons for teaching kids, but it should never have had anything to do with the politics of it, or who pays your salary.
A doctor wants what is best for each patient, and a teacher should want what is best for each child, not the whole, but each one specifically.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

For all of the HT members who are following this thread, consider this attitude when you are uncertain about where to place your child, or when struggling with their educational development.
If you approach your teacher about options and they give you political speel, you should know they don't have your child's best interests at heart,


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> This is like listening to a doctor base a patient's treatment only with hospitals or specialists they are aligned with.
> I don't know when or if you forgot the principal reasons for teaching kids, but it should never have had anything to do with the politics of it, or who pays your salary.
> A doctor wants what is best for each patient, and a teacher should want what is best for each child, not the whole, but each one specifically.


As expected, your stance has nothing to do with caring about kids and is all about supporting your ideology.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How unsurprising that you support private schools being allowed to discriminate and not provide services.


But they do provide service. How not surprising you’d have other work for nothing to get their rightful share.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> For all of the HT members who are following this thread, consider this attitude when you are uncertain about where to place your child, or when struggling with their educational development.
> If you approach your teacher about options and they give you political speel, you should know they don't have your child's best interests at heart,


They may want to consider why public money should support the discrimination and special rules that private schools are allowed to operate under. They might want to consider why the voucher pushers are so desperate to allow private schools to declare some children "unworthy" while receiving public money to do so.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> But they do provide service. How not surprising you’d have other work for nothing to get their rightful share.


You are again wrong. Private schools are not required to provide special education services to children with special needs that are enrolled in their schools. The public school district where the private school is located is required to provide those services as well as either transport the child to the service provider or have the service provider go to the child. The cost for providing those services comes out of the public school district's budget. And you and your fellow voucher pushers want the private schools to receive public funds while continuing to operate under this system.

If they want public funds, they should have to provide those services themselves.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are again wrong. Private schools are not required to provide special education services to children with special needs that are enrolled in their schools. The public school district where the private school is located is required to provide those services as well as either transport the child to the service provider or have the service provider go to the child. The cost for providing those services comes out of the public school district's budget. And you and your fellow voucher pushers want the private schools to receive public funds while continuing to operate under this system.
> 
> If they want public funds, they should have to provide those services themselves.


So providing a quality education to their students is not providing a service?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So providing a quality education to their students is not providing a service?


Are they providing the same services as the public schools? Are they providing that supposed "quality education" to all comers? No? Then they shouldn't get public funding until they are required to step up and do so.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Why should they not be compensated for the services they do provide? Should firefighters not get public funds because they don’t provide special education? No, we pay them for services they provide.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Why should they not be compensated for the services they do provide? Should firefighters not get public funds because they don’t provide special education? No, we pay them for services they provide.


Special education is an educational service provided at all levels of PreK-12 education and both of us know it. Private schools should not get public funds while being allowed to deny special education services to the students with IEPs that are enrolled in their schools. 

Your "should firefighters not get public funds because they don't provide special education" is a lame attempt to try to justify your desire to provide public funds to private schools while continuing to allow them to deny services to their students. If a kid with an IEP is enrolled in a private school then that private school should not be allowed to deny services to that student while receiving public funds.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Special education is an educational service provided at all levels of PreK-12 education and both of us know it. Private schools should not get public funds while being allowed to deny special education services to the students with IEPs that are enrolled in their schools.
> 
> Your "should firefighters not get public funds because they don't provide special education" is a lame attempt to try to justify your desire to provide public funds to private schools while continuing to allow them to deny services to their students. If a kid with an IEP is enrolled in a private school then that private school should not be allowed to deny services to that student while receiving public funds.


According to your previous posts private schools do provide those services by utilizing existing facilities and staff located at public schools. If those services are good enough for public schools they should be good enough for private schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> According to your previous posts private schools do provide those services by utilizing existing facilities and staff located at public schools. If those services are good enough for public schools they should be good enough for private schools.


Try again. The private schools ARE NOT providing those services. The public schools are providing those services to students enrolled in private schools. The public schools are providing the staff, facilities, transportation and the funds out of their budgets. People like you want the private schools to receive public funds AND still have the public schools provide all of those services. If the private schools want public funds then they should be required to provide those services from their own budgets.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Try again. The private schools ARE NOT providing those services. The public schools are providing those services to students enrolled in private schools. The public schools are providing the staff, facilities, transportation and the funds out of their budgets. People like you want the private schools to receive public funds AND still have the public schools provide all of those services. If the private schools want public funds then they should be required to provide those services from their own budgets.


Wrong! The taxpayers provide the funding for those services, not the teachers, not the schools. We fund those services for the purpose of educating ALL students, not just those enrolled in a public school. its the taxpayers that put the funds into the hands of the public schools so they have it available for their budget.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Wrong! The taxpayers provide the funding for those services, not the teachers, not the schools. We fund those services for the purpose of educating ALL students, not just those enrolled in a public school. its the taxpayers that put the funds into the hands of the public schools so they have it available for their budget.


And you want the private schools to get those funds AND at the same time take from the funds of another school. You want the private schools to say, "Give us public funds but don't require us to spend any of those public funds to provide special education services to our students. Let us make that other school spend their public funds to provide services to our students."


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I'm beginning to believe you are a bot.


My theory is she is paid on a per post, or per word basis, Soros or someone like that. Maybe the Teachers' Union.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> My theory is she is paid on a per post, or per word basis, Soros or someone like that. Maybe the Teachers' Union.


Might want to look at your own number of posts before you cast aspersions on anyone else. You must be getting paid by the post. 

Oops, I forgot. Only you and those who think & post in lockstep with you are allowed to post here.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Might want to look at your own number of posts before you cast aspersions on anyone else. You must be getting paid by the post.
> 
> Oops, I forgot. Only you and those who think & post in lockstep with you are allowed to post here.


Difference in my posts and your posts, is that a few people do agree with mine, or they make a person ponder. Yours make us queasy.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And you want the private schools to get those funds AND at the same time take from the funds of another school. You want the private schools to say, "Give us public funds but don't require us to spend any of those public funds to provide special education services to our students. Let us make that other school spend their public funds to provide services to our students."


Not asking public schools for a dime.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Difference in my posts and your posts, is that a few people do agree with mine, or they make a person ponder. Yours make us queasy.


Keep dreaming. Yours only make one ponder why you are so afraid of anyone having a different opinion than yours. You are not the great intellect you want to persuade yourself that you are.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Not asking public schools for a dime.


Lie. When you support the private schools being able to receive public funds while at the same time requiring the public schools to provide services to private school students, you are indeed asking the public schools for a whole lot of dimes. If you want private schools to receive public funds, then they should have to provide services to those students out of their own pool of public funds.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Keep dreaming. Yours only make one ponder why you are so afraid of anyone having a different opinion than yours. You are not the great intellect you want to persuade yourself that you are.


At least I care about kids, and their future


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> At least I care about kids, and their future


That one made me laugh out loud.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Lie. When you support the private schools being able to receive public funds while at the same time requiring the public schools to provide services to private school students, you are indeed asking the public schools for a whole lot of dimes. If you want private schools to receive public funds, then they should have to provide services to those students out of their own pool of public funds.


Nope taxpayers pay for every kids education, not a dime taken from any school.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, you want the public schools to be supported by public funds and have to "teach anyone and everyone that wishes to be there" but you want the private schools to be supported by public funds and only have to teach those that they deem "worthy" to be in their schools, be able to deny services to students and not have to follow the same rules even though they are being supported by public funds?
> 
> Really? That seems right to you?


Yes


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Yes


How sad that that seems right to you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Taxpayers pay X dollars per student in public school, we pay extra for students with special needs. As it is now parents have no benefit from their dollars when they send their kids to private school unless their child has special needs. Hardly seems fair.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I have said nothing about any school getting all of the money or providing any service for free. 

I have said, If a student goes to a school, that school should get the funds allocated for that students education. If part of the funds need to go to one place and part to another then fine. But for the public schools to take ALL of the money and provide no service, as we commonly see, its wrong. 

For public schools to check off the attendance box and accept money for a student and not provide the education they deserve is wrong. If the school cannot do the job, then move the student to where it can be handled. Situations like the OP that went on for months or years is fraudulent use of the tax money.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Taxpayers pay X dollars per student in public school, we pay extra for students with special needs. As it is now parents have no benefit from their dollars when they send their kids to private school unless their child has special needs. Hardly seems fair.


Hardly seems fair to give public dollars to private schools and allow them to say, "Sorry EH, your kid is unworthy to attend here" while the public schools are required to take everyone. Hardly seems fair to give public dollars to private schools and allow them to say, "Let the public schools provide the special education providers for our students. We can't be bothered". Hardly seems fair to give public dollars to private schools and allow them to say, "Due process? We don't feel like it".


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> I have said nothing about any school getting all of the money or providing any service for free.
> 
> I have said, If a student goes to a school, that school should get the funds allocated for that students education. If part of the funds need to go to one place and part to another then fine. But for the public schools to take ALL of the money and provide no service, as we commonly see, its wrong.
> 
> For public schools to check off the attendance box and accept money for a student and not provide the education they deserve is wrong. If the school cannot do the job, then move the student to where it can be handled. Situations like the OP that went on for months or years is fraudulent use of the tax money.


"For public schools to check off the attendance box and accept money for a student and not provide the education they deserve is wrong." But you are apparently ok with private schools not being required to provide special education services to their students and putting that job onto the public schools. Should the public schools be able to say, "No thanks, we'll provide services to our students and you take care of yours?"

"If the school cannot do the job, then move the student to where it can be handled." Yet, you are supporting giving public funds to private schools while allowing them to reject students like the kid in the OP. Why should they be able to receive public funds while being able to pick and choose only the students they want when the public schools must take everyone?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> "For public schools to check off the attendance box and accept money for a student and not provide the education they deserve is wrong." But you are apparently ok with private schools not being required to provide special education services to their students and putting that job onto the public schools. Should the public schools be able to say, "No thanks, we'll provide services to our students and you take care of yours?"
> 
> "If the school cannot do the job, then move the student to where it can be handled." Yet, you are supporting giving public funds to private schools while allowing them to reject students like the kid in the OP. Why should they be able to receive public funds while being able to pick and choose only the students they want when the public schools must take everyone?


The public schools cannot refuse to refuse the student, as you have repeatedly pointed out. That is a good thing. That way all students can get a education. Why are you so worried about the other schools, just do the job your getting paid for. Fair has nothing to do with it. 

As far as the OP is concerned, generally speaking the private schools are not going to do what the public schools have done for that student. The student would end up in a school equipped to handle the problem. Unlike the public schools the private schools are held accountable and would be out of business if they pulled such stunts.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> "For public schools to check off the attendance box and accept money for a student and not provide the education they deserve is wrong." But you are apparently ok with private schools not being required to provide special education services to their students and putting that job onto the public schools. Should the public schools be able to say, "No thanks, we'll provide services to our students and you take care of yours?"
> 
> "If the school cannot do the job, then move the student to where it can be handled." Yet, you are supporting giving public funds to private schools while allowing them to reject students like the kid in the OP. Why should they be able to receive public funds while being able to pick and choose only the students they want when the public schools must take everyone?


Because all students should benefit from the taxpayers funds no matter where they are taught.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> The public schools cannot refuse to refuse the student, as you have repeatedly pointed out. That is a good thing. That way all students can get a education. Why are you so worried about the other schools, just do the job your getting paid for. Fair has nothing to do with it.
> 
> As far as the OP is concerned, generally speaking the private schools are not going to do what the public schools have done for that student. The student would end up in a school equipped to handle the problem. Unlike the public schools the private schools are held accountable and would be out of business if they pulled such stunts.


Why are you so determined that private schools should get public funds and get to operate under special rules? Rules for thee and not for me is apparently the order of the day in your mind. 

What exactly do you think the private school is going to do for the kid in the OP who couldn't be bothered to show up for class?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Because all students should benefit from the taxpayers funds no matter where they are taught.


Then, if the private schools are going to accept public funds, then they should have to provide all the services that a student is entitled to. Nor should they be able to reject students.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Then, if the private schools are going to accept public funds, then they should have to provide all the services that a student is entitled to. Nor should they be able to reject students.


You keep harping about these services. Those services are already available and paid for out of taxpayers funds. Why should taxpayers pay for duplication of same service? Public schools often reject students they don’t want as well. Why are you so opposed to having tax money go to wherever the student gets their education?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You keep harping about these services. Those services are already available and paid for out of taxpayers funds. Why should taxpayers pay for duplication of same service? Public schools often reject students they don’t want as well. Why are you so opposed to having tax money go to wherever the student gets their education?


You continue to be wrong. You're quite good at that.

Why are you so opposed to having the private school provide ALL the educational services a student requires instead of just the parts they feel like? Using your logic, why should the private school provide math education? After all, that service is available at the public school so why not push that job off onto the public school as well? How about the school library? That's available at the public school so why not push providing that service onto the public school as well?

Why should public schools have to provide services for students who don't attend there? Let the private schools step up and provide for their students out of the funds they are given. Why are you so opposed to making private schools compete fairly instead of being given special rules?

They should have to follow all the rules that the public schools have to follow. After all, if they are so much better than the public schools like you claim, they should be able to operate under the same rules and produce the superior results you claim they provide.

They should have to take whomever shows up. After all, if you support school choice like you claim, then parents should get to send their kids wherever they want regardless of what the school wants. If those private schools are so much better than the public schools like you claim, they should be able to take everyone and produce the superior results you claim they provide.

They should have to provide all the services that the public schools provide out of their budget. Why should the private schools get to push their job to educate all of their students off on the public schools? After all, if they are so much better than the public schools like you claim, they should have no problem providing the services that students need and should be able to produce the superior results you claim they provide.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The problem is the public schools aren't educating all of their students. In many cases, they aren't even providing access to education. You can throw all the typical canards and excuses that you like of why some public schools and public school systems do not achieve their intended purpose. That is meaningless rhetoric. 

In the end, most of us really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible. It isn't out of some malevolent intent or diabolical reason. It is because many of us actually care about them and the future of this nation. Those with the means can already find the right or better school or system, but there are many without the means and they seem to be the ones stuck in failing schools. It appears, from your posts, that you are simply interested in perpetuating that system because you either benefit from it financially or are truly interested in keeping a permanent underclass.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You continue to be wrong. You're quite good at that.
> 
> Why are you so opposed to having the private school provide ALL the educational services a student requires instead of just the parts they feel like? Using your logic, why should the private school provide math education? After all, that service is available at the public school so why not push that job off onto the public school as well? How about the school library? That's available at the public school so why not push providing that service onto the public school as well?
> 
> ...


Private schools do provide their students with a superior education. Private school students consistently score higher than their public schooled counterparts on college entrance exams. They most likely could educate students better than public schools due primarily to those “rules” you insist should be done away with.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Private schools do provide their students with a superior education. Private school students consistently score higher than their public schooled counterparts on college entrance exams. They most likely could educate students better than public schools due primarily to those “rules” you insist should be done away with.


You are wrong yet again. 

If you're so confident that private schools are better, then why are you so afraid to make them compete fairly? Let them step up and take all students, provide the same services and stop operating under their special rules.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are wrong yet again.
> 
> If you're so confident that private schools are better, then why are you so afraid to make them compete fairly? Let them step up and take all students, provide the same services and stop operating under their special rules.


Coz then they would be operating under the same crappy rules that keep public schools hamstringed!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Hiro said:


> The problem is the public schools aren't educating all of their students. In many cases, they aren't even providing access to education. You can throw all the typical canards and excuses that you like of why some public schools and public school systems do not achieve their intended purpose. That is meaningless rhetoric.
> 
> In the end, most of us really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible. It isn't out of some malevolent intent or diabolical reason. It is because many of us actually care about them and the future of this nation. Those with the means can already find the right or better school or system, but there are many without the means and they seem to be the ones stuck in failing schools. It appears, from your posts, that you are simply interested in perpetuating that system because you either benefit from it financially or are truly interested in keeping a permanent underclass.


I call BS. 

If you and those like you "really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible" then you wouldn't be arguing so hard for private schools to receive public funding while being allowed to reject students. 

If you and those like you "really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible" then you wouldn't be arguing so hard for private schools to receive public funding while being allowed to not provide students with all the services they require.

If you and those like you "really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible" then you wouldn't be arguing so hard for private schools to receive public funding while being allowed to disregard due process.

If you and those like you "really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible" then you would not be fighting so hard to grant the private schools special privileges on the public dime and make them compete fairly.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"Public funds" is another way of side stepping that it is really the parent's money.
"Taking money from the public schools" is another way of sidestepping giving the parents a refund for a bad service.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Coz then they would be operating under the same crappy rules that keep public schools hamstringed!


Because you know that, if they weren't allow to cherry pick and deny services, you'd realize that you've been believing a lie.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> If you and those like you "really just want and greatly desire for all students to have access to the best education possible" then you would not be fighting so hard to grant the private schools special privileges on the public dime and make them compete fairly.


Pfft. 
My kid, my money, my choice. You can scratch and claw for it all you want but it is happening. Not as fast as I like, but change she is a comin!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You seem to know what everyone else knows, in spite of what they are telling you, lol.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'd love to be able to cherry pick. I'd love for my kids to have all the options available, even if I'm poor and stuck in the ghetto. Just like Brad and Karen do.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I'd love to be able to cherry pick. I'd love for my kids to have all the options available, even if I'm poor and stuck in the ghetto. Just like Brad and Karen do.


Nope, sorry, your fellow voucher pushers don't believe you should be able to. Only the private schools should get to cherry pick and, sorry, your kids don't make the cut. That private school has deemed that your kids are unworthy of attending their school.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You missed it. I don't care about others. Just my kids.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> "Public funds" is another way of side stepping that it is really the parent's money.
> "Taking money from the public schools" is another way of sidestepping giving the parents a refund for a bad service.


Those that profit from the current system fear the outcome if it is changed. It really doesn't matter who is hurt to keep the status quo.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

__





NAEP Studies - 2006461: Comparing Private Schools and Public Schools Using Hierarchical Linear Modeling


NAEP Studies - 2006461



nces.ed.gov








__





Statistics - Secondary school: Private vs. Public






secondaryschoolprivatevspublic.weebly.com












CAPE & Niche Report Private School Students Score Higher, Are More Prepared for College | Independent School Management | Advancing School Leadership—Enriching The Student Experience


Families enroll their children in private schools for many reasons, including safety, unique educational opportunities, and their students’ ultimate academic future. That future often includes higher education and college—and the practically required expectation of standardized testing. In the...




isminc.com


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hmm, every private school I went to, sent my kids to, or knew of took the child as long as the check cashed. If they broke the rules in a serious way they got kicked out. Not sent to suspension, safe school or whatever, only to come back and harass students, like was done to my son. Oh, and the private school kept their money thru the rest of the semester like they should.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You missed it. I don't care about others. Just my kids.


Sorry, the private school you wanted your kids to go to has decided that your kids are unworthy of attending. Too bad. But you should be ok with that as long as other parents get vouchers for their kids to attend.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That first link with the NAEP study is impressive.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Hmm, every private school I went to, sent my kids to, or knew of took the child as long as the check cashed. If they broke the rules in a serious way they got kicked out. Not sent to suspension, safe school or whatever, only to come back and harass students, like was done to my son. Oh, and the private school kept their money thru the rest of the semester like they should.


Well, goody for you, but that doesn't happen for everyone. Private schools can, and do, reject any student they don't want. They shouldn't get public funding to do so.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Sorry, the private school you wanted your kids to go to has decided that your kids are unworthy of attending. Too bad. But you should be ok with that as long as other parents get vouchers for their kids to attend.


Your pecking too fast to read 539 I suppose.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Well, goody for you, but that doesn't happen for everyone. Private schools can, and do, reject any student they don't want. They shouldn't get public funding to do so.


Not trying to be nostalgic, I went to public school in a rather troubled region. Back then, if students became unruly or disruptive, they got sent to the principal's office. After the second or third time, they got sent to a different school environment or a completely different school so as not to interrupt others education. My brother in law taught in one of those schools as recently as 5 years ago, so maybe they have been disbanded since then. 

Have things changed, in certain school systems, where that is not allowed? If so, why? If the school is not allowed to remove disruptive students from public school classrooms to allow others access to education, is that not just another reason to permit parents/students being disrupted access to their own paid-in taxes to take them where they can learn in peace?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You might want to try reading that NAEP report. It doesn't say what you think it does.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro said:


> Have things changed, in certain school systems, where that is not allowed? If so, why? If the school is not allowed to remove disruptive students from public school classrooms to allow others access to education, is that not just another reason to permit parents/students being disrupted access to their own paid-in taxes to take them where they can learn in peace?


My youngest son witnessed another male student assault a girl. He reported it. The kid ended up hitting the girl and threatened my son. He was "suspended". He returned a month later and pushed her down the stairwell and caught my son in the bathroom before staff arrived. Guess what, he came back 3 months later, put in the same classroom as my son.

Private school? I saw students suspended once and then kicked out. There was no fooling around and it was done with common sense, unlike the zero tolerance crap that only applies to pop tarts shaped like guns.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to try reading that NAEP report. It doesn't say what you think it does.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Hiro said:


> Not trying to be nostalgic, I went to public school in a rather troubled region. Back then, if students became unruly or disruptive, they got sent to the principal's office. After the second or third time, they got sent to a different school environment or a completely different school so as not to interrupt others education. My brother in law taught in one of those schools as recently as 5 years ago, so maybe they have been disbanded since then.
> 
> Have things changed, in certain school systems, where that is not allowed? If so, why? If the school is not allowed to remove disruptive students from public school classrooms to allow others access to education, is that not just another reason to permit parents/students being disrupted access to their own paid-in taxes to take them where they can learn in peace?


There was a huge disparity in which students were being disciplined and which ones were not. Very often the students being tossed out were disproportionally POC or students with IEPs.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> View attachment 94618


When like students were compared to like students the type of system made no difference. I realize that doesn't fit your agenda.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to try reading that NAEP report. It doesn't say what you think it does.


I read it, it simply doesn’t say what you’d like it too


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I read it, it simply doesn’t say what you’d like it too


I doubt you read all 66 pages of the report. It simply doesn't say what you'd like it to.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

CAPE & Niche Report Private School Students Score Higher, Are More Prepared for College | Independent School Management | Advancing School Leadership—Enriching The Student Experience


Families enroll their children in private schools for many reasons, including safety, unique educational opportunities, and their students’ ultimate academic future. That future often includes higher education and college—and the practically required expectation of standardized testing. In the...




isminc.com


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> There was a huge disparity in which students were being disciplined and which ones were not. Very often the students being tossed out were disproportionally POC or students with IEPs.


If the student is a problem and cannot behave then who cares why, what color, what issue, they should be out of the general population. To use the excuse that to many of one color are being disciplined and its not fair is ridiculous. Cause to many problems, gone. It’s that simple. Put them somewhere with someone trained to deal with it. Why have the majority of the students deal with a trouble maker.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> If the student is a problem and cannot behave then who cares why, what color, what issue, they should be out of the general population. To use the excuse that to many of one color are being disciplined and its not fair is ridiculous. Cause to many problems, gone. It’s that simple.


No, it wasn't that simple. POC and students with disabilities were being disciplined at a much higher rate than other students. They were being disciplined more harshly and for longer than their peers for engaging in the same behavior.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> There was a huge disparity in which students were being disciplined and which ones were not. Very often the students being tossed out were disproportionally POC or students with IEPs.


You didn't answer my question, as usual.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, it wasn't that simple. POC and students with disabilities were being disciplined at a much higher rate than other students. They were being disciplined more harshly and for longer than their peers for engaging in the same behavior.


If they are not getting the same punishment for the same misbehavior, balanced with the number of times they are a problem, then I would agree its not fair. 

If what your saying is the case, then once again its the teachers, administration and the rules of the public school that is the problem. Wonder why some wish to have their kids and their money in a environment where they do not have to be exposed to and deal with these issues.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, it wasn't that simple. POC and students with disabilities were being disciplined at a much higher rate than other students. They were being disciplined more harshly and for longer than their peers for engaging in the same behavior.


It really should be that simple. Bad behavior should get a free ticket out. Let the others study in peace... Like private schools do.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I cannot understand how any teacher would condone or accept repeated misbehavior in a class. The teacher unions have no problem with striking to get a pay raise, but seem to have a issue with striking to get a safe and effective work environment for themself’s and the students.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> If they are not getting the same punishment for the same misbehavior, balanced with the number of times they are a problem, then I would agree its not fair.
> 
> If what your saying is the case, then once again its the teachers, administration and the rules of the public school that is the problem. Wonder why some wish to have their kids and their money in a environment where they do not have to be exposed to and deal with these issues.


Then, maybe, if they wish for their private schools to receive public funding, then they should stop demanding those funds while continuing to allow those schools to receive special privileges. If the private schools had to accept all students, provide their own services and follow the same rules, then there would be no problem with vouchers. There will never be agreement about vouchers as long as the private schools are allowed to operate under special rules, make the public schools provide their services to students with special needs and cherry pick students.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

It’s the special rules that make the private schools a attractive choice for so many parents. Why would a parent want to put their child in some of the schools we see on the news ? I know for a fact as a young student I dealt with a lot of stuff on a regular basis (since we often moved) that no child should have to. Fortunately a couple of times my parents were willing to fight the system and make the financial sacrifices that are tough on a middle income family, and get me out of those schools as soon as possible. The thought that the private schools had a better education program never entered into the thought process for them. These situations would not be there if the administration and teachers really in truly cared. Why are the parents that are not financially well to do forced to have their kids locked up in these places just because some bureaucrats and teachers are scared of loosing some budget?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> It’s the special rules that make the private schools a attractive choice for so many parents. Why would a parent want to put their child in some of the schools we see on the news ? I know for a fact as a young student I dealt with a lot of stuff on a regular basis (since we often moved) that no child should have to. Fortunately a couple of times my parents were willing to fight the system and make the financial sacrifices that are tough on a middle income family, and get me out of those schools as soon as possible. The thought that the private schools had a better education program never entered into the thought process for them. These situations would not be there if the administration and teachers really in truly cared. Why are the parents that are not financially well to do forced to have their kids locked up in these places just because some bureaucrats and teachers are scared of loosing some budget?


The current advocate, on these forums, is likely concerned about her paycheck and pension. It is unlikely about the education of students, which the teachers that I know and have known are most focused on.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I can honestly say the education aspect is the second priority for me. Safety in school comes first. Lots of issues with safety in schools around this nation. When I hear or see someone in the teaching profession defend the problem in any form for any reason it easily irritates me. Fair, level playing field, person of color, and all the rest of that ridiculous thought process is just a sign of some serious issues with ethics and morals.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> I can honestly say the education aspect is the second priority for me. Safety in school comes first. Lots of issues with safety in schools around this nation. When I hear or see someone in the teaching profession defend the problem in any form for any reason it easily irritates me. Fair, level playing field, person of color, and all the rest of that ridiculous thought process is just a sign of some serious issues with ethics and morals.


It is difficult to educate anyone, no matter how motivated to learn, if they are concerned about their safety. And, yes, you should be irritated, as we all should.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> The current advocate, on these forums, is likely concerned about her paycheck and pension. It is unlikely about the education of students, which the teachers that I know and have known are most focused on.


$100 (or 10 rounds of 9mm JHP- Better’s Choice) says that within 20 minutes of @SLFarmMI getting a job offer from a private a school, a couple hundred repetitive posts would be edited to “...”, and, within the day, every anti “voucher pusher’s” post here will be countered with:

@SLFarmMI : Why do you hate the idea of lower class folk getting to offer their kids a better opportunity? Shouldn’t all kids get a shot at a level playing field, regardless what their parents make? Why do you keep saying that poor people shouldn’t have a choice in where they want to send their kids? You keep saying you want to put a gun to their head and send them to jail if they send their kids to private school....


Strawman, wearing a different color flannel, enthusiastically poked.


Repeatedly.


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