# QH conformation?



## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

http://greenbay.craigslist.org/grd/2265343552.html

Lovely colt. What do you think of his conformation?

(I'm an old novice horse person, admittedly I DON'T know what I'm talking about, however I thought he was a bit upright in the pasterns.)

Give me an anatomy lesson!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I don't know what his bloodlines are, but I see a couple of things that would really back me off.

In the first photo with him standing up in a halter lineup, not only do the pasterns look both long and upright, but the rear pastern joints look enlarged. You often see this in young horses that are 'prepped' for halter shows, they're kept on way too much grain, grow out too fast and develop epiphysitis in the pastern joints. Also looks like he has the very small foot and rather fine bone that can be typical of the QH and APHA halter bloodlines.

If you're wanting something to ride and compete with, I'd look for something with performance bloodlines, not halter bloodlines. When I was in Montana and familiar with a lot of the QH breeders and ranchers, there were some horses that would come through the ring, especially with the horse traders ... gorgeous, but they'd bring them in as 2 year olds not yet under saddle and the old ranchers would not even bid on them. They would tell you that some of the halter lines wouldn't stay sound enough to get broke, let alone do ranch work under saddle.

I'm not familiar with current QH/APHA bloodlines but I'd ask for a 3 or 4 generation pedigree on anything you look at and find someone that knows what they are looking at with the current lines.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Id like to see more of his lower legs in the front and rear. I worked for a lady with world champion halter horses and they are something else to look at but sometimes bred not to be able to handle all that extra weight and wind up lame or not really ridable.

I think in this market, that colt needs to prove a bit more to become a stallion and to fetch that kind of price, but thats just me


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I agree with SFM regarding his legs plus this colt goes back to Impressive three times and they say nothing about his HYPP status either in the ad or on allbreedpedigree.com.

I believe that AQHA is now requiring HYPP status on the papers of the current foal crop. After a quick Google search it looks like APHA does not require ANY type of testing prior to registration regarding HYPP. ApHC does have set rules for HYPP.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

I don't see in the add where it says he has Impressive in his background, however, DO NOT BUY a horse that has Impressive in his lines, ESPECIALLY if he traces back to Impressive more than once. I used to work for a large animal vet and I have seen horses with HYPP, it is very sad and painful and there's nothing that can be done for them except euthanizing. 

That aside, I agree with what others have said about his back legs, they seem very upright with long pasterns, and some inflammation in the hind legs (I'm surprised he's won so many shows with these flaws). This _can_ correct itself as he matures, but it's not a guarantee. I'm not sure how old he is in those pictures, but my guess is that he's younger than he looks and has been bred to be very heavily muscled, which can be a warning sign/precurser to HYPP if he does trace back to Impressive several times. 

Doesn't necessarily mean don't go look at him, but be VERY careful and ask lots of questions. My personal advice would be to stay away from any horse that has Impressive bloodlines. HYPP is a terrible disease and it's not worth the risk.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Trout River, here are his lines on allbreedpedigree.com http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/the+sizzlin+kid


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Chixarecute said:


> Lovely colt. What do you think of his conformation?


Blech. I wouldn't expect him to stay sound. I also wouldn't be surprised if he does have epiphysitis - which is actually inflammation of the growth plates. It is not in the joint itself, though it is near the pastern joint. If caught early, the damage can be minimized, but if allowed to progress, it can lead to angular limb deformities.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

The damline isn't bad, though as I said before, not familiar with current lines ... however she goes back to a couple of the older working/TB bloodlines I like.

With the sire going back to Impressive 3 times, wouldn't own anything by him, period. That is one of the names that used to come up in the horse auction stands "won't stay sound enough to get him broke".


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

At that age not much is really set in stone conformation-wise. Some colts are downright wonky at 1 and especially 2 years only to come out beautiful specimens once all their parts grow into themselves. That said, I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole based on his breeding alone.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

I always learn so much here!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Yes, foals, yearlings, and two year olds can look gangly, but you can see good or bad conformation through the gangly-ness. 

Compare this:









to a foal of about the same age:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The warmblood pictured is very nice, Malinda. Is she a Trakehner?

The difference in bone is just striking, isn't it? The Paint's legs look like toothpicks.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

No, she's a Hanoverian. I can't remember how to spell the name of the Trak filly of who I wanted to post a photo so my Google search didn't find her.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

malinda said:


> Yes, foals, yearlings, and two year olds can look gangly, but you can see good or bad conformation through the gangly-ness.
> 
> Compare this:
> 
> ...


Nice example, the second colt looks like he's got great freedom of movement in his back legs, whereas the QH colt looks stiff, his back legs are consistently placed underneath him in all of the photos in his add, he probably does not have very good extension in his hind legs. It is hard to tell from photos without actually seeing him move in person, but since it's consistent in all 3 photos I think it's safe to say that his back legs are not very strong or supple. I agree, he is likely to have soundness problems. 

That said, I had a QH filly (PMU rescue) who had similar problems with her back legs when she was this age. With corrective farrier work, a specialized diet, regular excersize and LOTS of turnout, she did improve and turned out to be a nice looking horse. Like Olivehill said, nothing is really set in stone at this age, but it does take more work to raise them right when they are born with predisposed issues. Horses with issues like this cannot stand in a stall for hours every day, it will make their problems worse. But honestly, for that price you could find a MUCH nicer colt that won't be as likely to have serious health/soundness problems in the future.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> No, she's a Hanoverian. I can't remember how to spell the name of the Trak filly of who I wanted to post a photo so my Google search didn't find her.


What line Hanoverian? I have a G-line mare, chestnut sabino as well. I thought her head/ears looked more Trak-y...


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I think he's cute, but I wouldn't buy him, even as a gelding. And he needs to be gelded.

Shoulder is too straight, not nearly enough length in the upper arm. I don't think his head will be all that wonderful when he is full grown. 

I like a horse with a longer hip, a longer upper thigh, and the hocks let more down. Sorry, but I wouldn't buy the other foal, either.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Oh, and by the way, that wasn't a QH, it was a Paint. Maybe they want something different in a paint, but he doesn't meet good QH conformation, in my book.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

QH/paint/app = same horse, different color. This colt is 15/16ths QH by pedigree and the ad says he took 1st in a WQHA futurity.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

He's still unappealing.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Given his conformation, he certainly isn't a prospect for anything under saddle because about as pleasant to ride as a grain truck.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

He looks odd even to me, and I don't claim to know much about horse conformation. He just looks wrong somehow. So how can they say in the ad, "very correct conformation"??? Is that what is now considered correct conformation? If so, that's very sad.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> What line Hanoverian? I have a G-line mare, chestnut sabino as well. I thought her head/ears looked more Trak-y...


Her sire is Rapture R. I don't know the horse or her owners, I was only looking for a conformation shot of a foal of similar age for comparison.

This is the photo of the Trak filly that I was looking for:










Though she is at least a few months younger in this photo than the other two. She is sired by Leonidas, who is also the sire of my Trak gelding. This was her "for sale" photo, and if I would have had the money she would be living with me now! I just love her! And she took third (I believe) in the 5yo Trak futurity a couple of years ago.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The Trak filly should be a "this is how they are _supposed_ to look" picture. Good conformation is good conformation be it on a Quarter Horse, Thoroughbred, Walker or Warmblood. She is simply lovely.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

The brown filly, I like. Better lay back of shoulder, better proportion of upper arm to shoulder. Better length of hip and proportion of thigh to hip.

I like the shape of her neck and head.

She is way up on the hock, though, and I really dislike that. She's young and cannon bones don't grow as much as the rest of the skeleton, so she might grow into her hocks. Ilso, I'd hope she would develop some withers as she gorows.

If that is a correct croup for a Trak (I don't know), she's a keeper.

No, Appaloosas aren't related to Quarter Horses and have different conformation requirements. You're dead certain that WQHA absolutely means something to do with Quarter Horses? Because paints don't compete in Quarter Horse classes.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Chix, you are asking about conformation trying to learn. Look at the photo of the red filly. Look at her back feet.You see where the back pastern goes down at one angle and the hoof changes angle and goes down at a different angle?

That is very bad. The filly is quite well groomed, so the odds are that those people are not using a cheap shoer that doesn't know what he is doing. So it is unlikely to be a trimming fault.

It's a photo, and photos aren't very useful for picking out a horse, sometimes the horse stops wrong, or the angle of the photo is wrong, or there is some distortion. But if you are looking at a live horse and their feet are like that every time when they stop, it is a serious fault.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Chix, you are asking about conformation trying to learn. Look at the photo of the red filly. Look at her back feet.You see where the back pastern goes down at one angle and the hoof changes angle and goes down at a different angle?

That is very bad. The filly is quite well groomed, so the odds are that those people are not using a cheap shoer that doesn't know what he is doing. So it is unlikely to be a trimming fault.

It's a photo, and photos aren't very useful for picking out a horse, sometimes the horse stops wrong, or the angle of the photo is wrong, or there is some distortion. But if you are looking at a live horse and their feet are like that every time when they stop, it is a serious fault.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> No, Appaloosas aren't related to Quarter Horses and have different conformation requirements. You're dead certain that WQHA absolutely means something to do with Quarter Horses? Because paints don't compete in Quarter Horse classes.


The original Appaloosa was vastly different than it is today, but Malinda is right _most_ Paints and Appaloosas are now Quarter Horse with color. Check the percentage of QH blood in some of the "top" Paint and App lines.

WQHA's (Wisconsin Quarter Horse Association) website: http://www.wqha.com/index.html The number from the ad is a Green Bay area code. I'm not up on Quarter Horse/Paint registration requirements but I have read that fairly recently the AQHA opened up it's color rules, some horses the would have been "crop outs" can now be fully registered. 

Added: There is also the distinct possibility that this colt is sabino rather than overo. I can't see enough in the photo to tell conclusively.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Chix, you are asking about conformation trying to learn. Look at the photo of the red filly. Look at her back feet.You see where the back pastern goes down at one angle and the hoof changes angle and goes down at a different angle?
> 
> That is very bad. The filly is quite well groomed, so the odds are that those people are not using a cheap shoer that doesn't know what he is doing. So it is unlikely to be a trimming fault.
> 
> It's a photo, and photos aren't very useful for picking out a horse, sometimes the horse stops wrong, or the angle of the photo is wrong, or there is some distortion. But if you are looking at a live horse and their feet are like that every time when they stop, it is a serious fault.


I agree you shouldn't absolutely judge conformation from a photo but which leg are you talking about? The one that's in shadow or the one that isn't flat on the ground? From the photo, there is nothing wrong with the angle of the Hanoverian filly's hooves/legs.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> The original Appaloosa was vastly different than it is today, but Malinda is right _most_ Paints and Appaloosas are now Quarter Horse with color. Check the percentage of QH blood in some of the "top" Paint and App lines. I'm not up on Quarter Horse/Paint registration requirements but I have read that fairly recently the AQHA opened up it's color rules, some horses the would have been "crop outs" can now be fully registered.


You're correct, the AQHA has changed the 'too much white' requirement to some extent, so that some of the crop out sabino horses that you always did get in the QHs ... high white stockings, bald faces, belly spots ... which had been unregisterable with AQHA are now eligible. With everyone wanting lots of white markings on their show horses, too many of these 'high white' QH foals were going the APHA when they couldn't be registered with AQHA.

Both the Appaloosa and Paint registries have always allowed registered AQHA and JC registered TBs into the registries. As competition got stronger and judges were looking for more "pretty", and often the judges were also QH judges so tended to place the QH-looking horses higher, you saw more and more of the 'colored QH and TB" in both of these registries.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I agree, SFM and just added the possibility of him being sabino rather than overo to my prior post.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I haven't kept up as well with recent changes in equine color genetics as I should but I think they now consider sabino, frame and splash patterns all as overo ... general grouping as 'overo' but you can have just one, or all, of the overo patterns. If a horse has one or more, he may or may not carry the others, as they can be separate.

This is why you have sabino in Thoroughbreds, Arabs, Welsh and Connemaras, for instance, but do not have frame or splash overo patterns in those breeds. Confusing ....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I haven't been keeping up on the color classifications either. Miss a year or two and everything changes. So now my sabino mare is overo? :huh:


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Hes a halterbred colt....and stands true to his breeding in his conformation..he is VERY haltery looking. the first thing I look for in a youngster is a nice set of hocks..alot of halter horses tend to be "post hocked" and this horse looks it. makes it hard for them to work properly.

I would want to know his HYPP status. the number of times he goes back to impressive is a moot point..the stuff that matters is the HYPP status of his sire and possibly him. I owned a filly who went back to impressive three times and she was a joy to ride. Her half brother looked like a TB and is now a champion show hunter in the dallas area (and yes, he was impressive bred)


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Chixarecute said:


> Lovely colt. What do you think of his conformation?
> 
> (I'm an old novice horse person, admittedly I DON'T know what I'm talking about, however I thought he was a bit upright in the pasterns.)
> 
> Give me an anatomy lesson!


I'm not giving an anatomy lesson. There are people far better qualified than I. I would make an important suggestion. Please find an experienced horsey friend. Don't chose your first horse.... or even several first horses. Let your experienced horsey friend chose your horse. You'll get a far better horse at a lower cost. Even if you pay more for the horse itself you're likely to pay less in training and health costs. Your friend will be able to gauge what your needs are in a horse based upon your experience and ability. 

Why are you looking at colts instead of an already trained horse? Unless I had a lot of experience I'd not wish to purchase a young, untrained horse. You can get that experience by working with an experienced horsey friend as (s)he trains another horse.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> I haven't been keeping up on the color classifications either. Miss a year or two and everything changes. So now my sabino mare is overo? :huh:


I don't think they actually call the sabinos overo. I think they do consider all three patterns overo, but I think most people call the sabino pattern sabino rather than overo.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

spinandslide said:


> Hes a halterbred colt....and stands true to his breeding in his conformation..he is VERY haltery looking. the first thing I look for in a youngster is a nice set of hocks..alot of halter horses tend to be "post hocked" and this horse looks it. makes it hard for them to work properly.


OK, but what does this MEAN? For those of us not up on all the terms people use to describe horse conformation, what does "halterbred" (well, I get that it's a horse bred for halter classes, but practically, what does this translate to?), and "post hocked" mean? Someone else mentioned one of the horses looked "way up in the hocks". What does that mean in everyday English? 

Is there a good website somewhere that describes what a functional working horse's conformation should look like? -- that shows ideal conformation of a well-built horse from all angles, and provides descriptions of the terms used?


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

The Paint colt is standing a bit sickle hocked. I don't know if it is him or the photo. That means his hind foot is not underneath his hock. He stands with his foot too far forward, and it is an actual problem with the structure of the hock.

Post hocked, I haven't heard, but I assume it is the same as "post legged". That means he is too straight through the hock, without any angulation. In that colt, it is because his second thigh is too short.

Up on the hocks, high on the hocks, means the hock is located too far off the ground. The hock should be low set for improved leverage and more power in the back leg. A low set hock is called "hocks well let down"


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

spinandslide said:


> Hes a halterbred colt....and stands true to his breeding in his conformation..he is VERY haltery looking. the first thing I look for in a youngster is a nice set of hocks..alot of halter horses tend to be "post hocked" and this horse looks it. makes it hard for them to work properly.


Agreed. If you look at the allbreedpedigree link that someone posted, you can see in the comments, the horses that go back to Impressive are N/N closest to him, so the colt is N/N.

Unfortunately in looking at pics, many many exhibitors purposely set the rear legs underneath the horse, and that is normal in the halter industry. It doesn't necessarily mean he's not correct, you would have to see more pics or see him in person. I'd also want to see him move to see how he uses his back end if I was considering him as a riding horse. He has a lot of working horses in his pedigree too.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

birchtreefarm,
Years ago, halter horses were supposed to be the epitome of the breed - what every breeder would strive for. Unfortunately, over the past several decades the "halter" type horses have morphed into something that is generally unsuitable for riding. Some breeds have taken halter (and Western Pleasure) horses to an extreme - "muscling is good, so more muscle must be better", "small feet are pretty, so tiny feet must be better', "slow jogs with short strides is good, so slower and shorter must be better", "low headsets are good, so lower must be better", until only the beefiest horses win in Halter, and the slowest, lowest-headed horses win in Pleasure. If you want sound and rideable horses, you usually have to look to the performance type horses. These horses should be sound and competing well into their mid teens. That shows long-term soundness. Starting out with a horse who has good or relatively good conformation will increase the odds of the horse staying sound into it's older years.

Deb Bennett has three really good (not boring or too long) books on conformation - The Principles of Conformation Analysis I, II, & III. The books have many photos and examples and she goes into great detail as to why different conformation types will be better suited or not to a horse's performance. She also writes how a person can help a less-than-perfect horse become better by correct riding and building/strengthening the correct muscles on the horse.

If you do a google search on conformation, you will find plenty of drawings of conformation faults and examples. Familiarize yourself with the parts of the horse, and you will soon learn the terms used in describing conformation.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks, everyone. I'm not looking to buy, just saw the ad & pic & wondered if I was interpreting what I saw correctly.

There's nothing better than the smell of horse, or the breath they share with you!

Back in 79-80, I was a student at UW Madison, and took AG 101 strictly for the unit on horses. I remember the woman who ran the horse barn (Bunny?) complaining THEN that QHs were being bred for "teacup" feet. Apparently, they still are.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

malinda said:


> birchtreefarm,
> Years ago, halter horses were supposed to be the epitome of the breed - what every breeder would strive for. Unfortunately, over the past several decades the "halter" type horses have morphed into something that is generally unsuitable for riding. Some breeds have taken halter (and Western Pleasure) horses to an extreme - "muscling is good, so more muscle must be better", "small feet are pretty, so tiny feet must be better', "slow jogs with short strides is good, so slower and shorter must be better", "low headsets are good, so lower must be better", until only the beefiest horses win in Halter, and the slowest, lowest-headed horses win in Pleasure. If you want sound and rideable horses, you usually have to look to the performance type horses. These horses should be sound and competing well into their mid teens. That shows long-term soundness. Starting out with a horse who has good or relatively good conformation will increase the odds of the horse staying sound into it's older years.
> 
> Deb Bennett has three really good (not boring or too long) books on conformation - The Principles of Conformation Analysis I, II, & III. The books have many photos and examples and she goes into great detail as to why different conformation types will be better suited or not to a horse's performance. She also writes how a person can help a less-than-perfect horse become better by correct riding and building/strengthening the correct muscles on the horse.
> ...


This is a great post. 

Unfortunately extreme animals are the ones that draw the judges eye and are what place. It happens with exhibition German Shepherd dogs as well, you have your working lines and your exhibition lines, which is unfortunate because it is a working breed. Same with QH. Now you have your halter horses and you have your performance horses.

(I think the NFQHA looks promising, I've read their mission statement and agree with a lot of it. I'm hoping as the interest increases, it will reverse some of the trends that come with modern halter horses.)


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

This is a sickle-hocked horse:










This is a post-legged (hocked) horse:










The colt in question looks much more like the second picture than the first. As wr so aptly wrote, "Given his conformation, he certainly isn't a prospect for anything under saddle because about as pleasant to ride as a grain truck."


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

oregon woodsmok said:


> The Paint colt is standing a bit sickle hocked. I don't know if it is him or the photo. That means his hind foot is not underneath his hock. He stands with his foot too far forward, and it is an actual problem with the structure of the hock.
> 
> Post hocked, I haven't heard, but I assume it is the same as "post legged". That means he is too straight through the hock, without any angulation. In that colt, it is because his second thigh is too short.
> 
> Up on the hocks, high on the hocks, means the hock is located too far off the ground. The hock should be low set for improved leverage and more power in the back leg. A low set hock is called "hocks well let down"


Thanks! That all makes sense.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

malinda said:


> birchtreefarm,
> Years ago, halter horses were supposed to be the epitome of the breed - what every breeder would strive for. Unfortunately, over the past several decades the "halter" type horses have morphed into something that is generally unsuitable for riding. Some breeds have taken halter (and Western Pleasure) horses to an extreme - "muscling is good, so more muscle must be better", "small feet are pretty, so tiny feet must be better', "slow jogs with short strides is good, so slower and shorter must be better", "low headsets are good, so lower must be better", until only the beefiest horses win in Halter, and the slowest, lowest-headed horses win in Pleasure. If you want sound and rideable horses, you usually have to look to the performance type horses. These horses should be sound and competing well into their mid teens. That shows long-term soundness. Starting out with a horse who has good or relatively good conformation will increase the odds of the horse staying sound into it's older years.
> 
> Deb Bennett has three really good (not boring or too long) books on conformation - The Principles of Conformation Analysis I, II, & III. The books have many photos and examples and she goes into great detail as to why different conformation types will be better suited or not to a horse's performance. She also writes how a person can help a less-than-perfect horse become better by correct riding and building/strengthening the correct muscles on the horse.
> ...


Parts of the horse I know.  But the terms used to describe those parts sometimes don't make any literal sense. "Post" in post-hocked I took to mean "behind" or "after", not "built like a post".  And of course behind-hocked or after-hocked is nonsensical, but that's me - very literal-minded. 

Thanks for the book reference - that will be very helpful. I find drawing rather than descriptions to be more useful, personally. 

I remember reading somewhere, years ago, someone's dismay at the western pleasure horses that were bred and trained to go ever slower with their noses practically dragging the ground, and the slowest, most draggy horse would win. I thought "who would want to ride a horse like that, and why?"


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

When my ex and I were breeding QHs in the 70s we were concentrating on the reining, cutting and working cow horse lines ... mostly Doc Bar breeding with a line from the King Ranch horses. But we did show and did see a lot of the halter horses and western pleasure horses at the shows ... probably not as many in Montana and Wyoming as you see in the east coast/west coast shows ... but more than you'd think certainly. However, all of the ranch QH breeders that were there for the working classes basically made fun of the stallion that won every halter class he was in ... they would invariably comment that this 10 year old stallion was something they would never take a mare to because he had never been sound enough to get broke to ride.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

There are many nice horses with impressive behind him that do not throw hypp out, with testing you can breed those traits without having that come out.
Also, Im 100% against breeding hypp positive horse, but it is done without passing it on but its a toss up. HYPP can also be managed fairly well with new science but its about like having a diabetic horse.
Its hard to find a built qh that isnt going to go back to Impressive, I dont know the current status of the numbers of his offsprings but if the big picture was seen it wouldnt look near as bad as its blown up to be.

Another note , halter folks for the most part chose to manage hypp and win than to breed away from it, some of the world champions have been positive or had one positive parent


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Cannon_Farms, there are also many good horses without Impressive bloodlines. I'm always left to wonder why, if HYPP is no big deal, sellers are still destroying papers and not dislosing HYPP status. 

In my opinion, it is far cheaper to keep a healthy horse and HYPP is just an added expense that not all buyers are willing to accept.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

This discussion made me look again and my APHA filly's pedigree. No sign of Impressive, but lots of Doc Bar, King, and Two-Eyed Jack. 

I promise she is not as downhill as she looks in this photo, but this is the only photo my boyfriend took at her first horseshow that showed pretty much all of her.

Bonita2 by saanengirl, on Flickr

Bonita3 by saanengirl, on Flickr


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

She looks like she's a yearling here and yearlings are often 'downhill' at some stages of growth ... they do not grow evenly. Photo angles make it difficult to see much about her conformation but it does look like she has good sized joints and plenty of bone, not the very fine boned 'refinement' you will see in a lot of halter horses.

The bloodlines you mention are all bloodlines we had back in the 70s in our performance horses. Some individuals in those lines did respectably in the halter ring but that was not the only place where they were shown and they usually went on to put up impressive performances in reining, working cow horse or cutting.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Cannon_Farms, there are also many good horses without Impressive bloodlines. I'm always left to wonder why, if HYPP is no big deal, sellers are still destroying papers and not dislosing HYPP status.
> 
> In my opinion, it is far cheaper to keep a healthy horse and HYPP is just an added expense that not all buyers are willing to accept.


I'm not active in local horse activities since my youngest went to college and quit showing but I've still seen three horses that were either N/H or H/H sold as grade quarter horses or quarter horse crosses.  The buyers (2 4Hers, 1 older lady) were heart broken when these horses displayed HYPP problems. Two were so bad they had to be put down, the third is OK with treatment. HYPP devastated these families. 

My treatment for breeders of anything not tested N/N would be injections into the spine that would cause sporadic temporary paralysis. I'd rather not play the game if it means immoral and unethical behavior to win.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

She is actually 3, but has lots of growing left to do. She is cutting bred, not halter bred. We are showing halter to get her used to the show ring. She is also starting in walk-trot classes this year. In another year or two we will start looking at her career (which will probably be cutting with a side career of jumping if she shows an aptitude for it).

Here is her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bright+eyed+doc+bar


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

You have a nicely bred performance filly, Saanengirl. She looks sweet as well.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Was she 3 in the photo? 

From looking at the pedigree I suspect she would be 'able' for almost any of the APHA performance classes, particularly reining or cow work. I'm not sure how it is now, but I suspect she is not going to be TB-ish enough in type or tall enough to be all that competitive in any of the 'under English saddle' classes. If she's level or slightly downhill it is going to be difficult for her to collect enough and be balanced in the way jumpers need to be to be particularly good over fences as well, although I've seen some that could surprise you. I do think she's got substantial bone and a good sized foot, which would help a career in jumping, as the concussion would not be as likely to lead to unsoundness.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

The photo was taken last weekend. I don't expect her to be competitive in APHA under saddle English classes. She likes to jump things in her paddock, so if she develops the ability to jump high enough obstacles I might consider working hunter, but I expect that she will shine in the performance classes.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

saanengirl said:


> The photo was taken last weekend. I don't expect her to be competitive in APHA under saddle English classes. She likes to jump things in her paddock, so if she develops the ability to jump high enough obstacles I might consider working hunter, but I expect that she will shine in the performance classes.


How tall is she and what is her length of stride like? That is what is going to be the deciding factor I think in open hunter classes as a lot of the working hunter classes especially score a lot on how smoothly you get from one jump to another and some of that is based on 'standard' strides ... a horse that is smaller and/or has a shorter stride is often penalized because of that.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

This is what she looked like as a yearling, just before I purchased her:


Bonitayearling1 by saanengirl, on Flickr


Bonitayearling2 by saanengirl, on Flickr


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Right now she is hovering around 14 hands, so pretty short. She still has a lot of growing to do, however. My QH/Arab gelding grew from 14 to 15 hands between the ages of 3 and 5. Her dam was 14.2 hands, and her sire was probably close to 16 hands.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

On the stride question... I was looking for a more recent picture of her trotting, but alas, my boyfriend was more interested in pictures of me than pictures of the horse and didn't get her full legs in the pictures of her trotting (if I were taking the pictures, I would be more interested in making sure the whole horse was in the picture). 

She can have a long stride if she wants to. She can do a really floaty trot with a shorter stride and a lot of suspension, or a longer more stretched type of trot.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm not active in local horse activities since my youngest went to college and quit showing but I've still seen three horses that were either N/H or H/H sold as grade quarter horses or quarter horse crosses.  The buyers (2 4Hers, 1 older lady) were heart broken when these horses displayed HYPP problems. Two were so bad they had to be put down, the third is OK with treatment. HYPP devastated these families.
> 
> My treatment for breeders of anything not tested N/N would be injections into the spine that would cause sporadic temporary paralysis. I'd rather not play the game if it means immoral and unethical behavior to win.


When I was younger I was asked to accompany some new horse people to look at a prospective buy. It was a 3 year old gelding out of a big show barn. Big and beautiful. All the horses were stall kept. We asked the typical questions and they showed up their other horses for sale "$4,000...5,000... 8,000" but they wanted $1,200(said they would take $1,000) for this one off the same bloodlines saying he couldn't be shown because he was having some hoof issues 'but he should grow out of it'. The moment they mentioned "hoof issues" and they explained the rest of their horses were so much more expensive, I told the prospective buyers that I would NOT buy that horse. They did and were thrilled with their purchase for the first couple of months. Then he would periodically go lame and then he became chronically lame and then he became a pasture ornament. It was unfortunate. It wasn't HYPP, and it technically wasn't a 'hoof' problem, rather a bone problem. It was a shame to see such a young beautiful horse, barely be able to walk across his own pasture nevertheless bear the weight of a rider.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

It's been a very long time since I've shown Quarter Horses, but my cow ponies won at halter really well until they were about 20 months old. After that, they looked like midgets in the ring. A good working horse is built right, or they can't work. There are enough judges who can see structure at the QH shows. We'd win until we just got sized out.

I won't feed for growth, either. My horses didn't grow as fast, but they were always dead sound and never took a bad step.

I've seen some mighty short blocky quarter horse types out jump the big guys. They weren't pretty, but they'd use that huge muscled butt to power over anything you put them at. Anybody here old enough to remember "Stella"? She'd pop over anything, no matter how high. I always wondered how her rider stayed with her. Not exactly Hunter material. Scary as all get out to watch her.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wolffeathers said:


> The moment they mentioned "hoof issues" and they explained the rest of their horses were so much more expensive, I told the prospective buyers that I would NOT buy that horse. They did and were thrilled with their purchase for the first couple of months. Then he would periodically go lame and then he became chronically lame and then he became a pasture ornament. It was unfortunate. It wasn't HYPP, and it technically wasn't a 'hoof' problem, rather a bone problem. It was a shame to see such a young beautiful horse, barely be able to walk across his own pasture nevertheless bear the weight of a rider.


Probably navicular. The very small hoof the halter horses have been bred for plus the excessive musculature and keeping them "show fat" as well has led to navicular being a fairly common problem in the QH type breeds, QH, Paint, App of that type. Usually seen in somewhat older horses, showing up after the concussion of the performance events but in some cases, it doesn't even require that.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

This is a "halter bred" gelding by Conclusive (who is by Impressive):









Hind feet.










Fronts.

You can see how upright his pasterns are. I didn't do this shoeing job, but that horse had nightmare feet. His trainer couldn't explain to me how that horse kept winning WP classes - at the World and Congress too! She said he was such a bad mover, but he was consistently bad, and consistent is easier for a judge to spot than good movement.

I was the official farrier at a four day, four judges QH show here in WI a few years ago, and I am convinced that QH judges have no idea of what they are looking at. They don't even know how to properly watch a horse perform - for example, one of the English Eq. classes asked for a leg yield. Both judges watched the leg yield while standing in the middle of the arena, broadside to the horses. They also asked for a "hand gallop" between two cones spaced about 20 yards apart. Ridiculous.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I've always said Quarter Horse "hunters" are just western pleasure horses in drag, Malinda but maybe that's all the judges know. :stars:


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

That's hysterical, Irish Pixie! And so descriptive. 

I've been complaining and whining about those QH that roll peanuts for as long as I've watched them.

I'm in QH country and have two Arabs so I've watched the peanut rollers and nose-plowers for years in 4-H. Even the Thoroughbreds are trained to make furrows...

I don't care WHAT kind of horse it is? I want to see it's head up and watching the upcoming country if it's an English hunter. Otherwise? You've got an arena horse only. What use is a QH or any horse with it's nose a foot off the ground when you are trail-riding or cross-country riding? Scary and dumb.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Very true, Gailann I've always wanted my hunter to actually be able to see where he or she is going- especially at a gallop.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

saanengirl said:


> She is actually 3, but has lots of growing left to do. She is cutting bred, not halter bred. We are showing halter to get her used to the show ring. She is also starting in walk-trot classes this year. In another year or two we will start looking at her career (which will probably be cutting with a side career of jumping if she shows an aptitude for it).
> 
> Here is her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bright+eyed+doc+bar


She is "foundation" bred..I cant view the pictures, so cant comment on her conformation..but she should be able to do pretty much what you want.

good cutters are born, not made..they either have the cow and grittiness to get it done or they dont..only way to know is to put her on cattle when shes old enough and go from there.
Bear in mind, cutting is a bloodline driven game..these horses are BRED to be as cowy as they are..You mare has cow on her bottomside..but its further back then I would personally want..doesnt mean she wont be a cutter though..but having proven cowhorses close (1-2 generation) usually increases the likelyhood of the horse following in their footsteps.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

birchtreefarm said:


> Thanks! That all makes sense.


Looks like oregon clarified for you.

There are a good many conformation books out there..one by Nancy Loving is espc interesting..she goes over all conformational "faults" that a horse could have and the direct effect it would have on its performance.

a post hocked horse is an awful ride..Id take sickle hocked over post hocked any day.


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