# "Breakthrough" covid cases confirmed



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

As the number of vaccinated people increases, so do the numbers of people who test positive for covid after being fully vaccinated. The experts are quick to comment that no vaccine is 100% effective and there are only a very small number of people who have "breakthrough" covid. You have to do some research and know the correct search terms to use but the info is being released.









Washington confirms 'breakthrough' COVID-19 cases after vaccination


Of the potential 102 cases of patients who tested positive for COVID-19 after vaccination, two died, the state said. But the majority had mild or no symptoms.




www.king5.com





Just one article of many if you search for "breakthrough covid cases".

You can still contract and spread covid even after being fully vaccinated which is why experts are still advocating wearing masks and following social distancing guidelines. Which has been reduced to 3 feet for children in schools.









Coronavirus Disease 2019


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SARS-CoV-2 RNA reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome​​_Here we investigated the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 RNAs can be reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome and that transcription of the integrated sequences might account for PCR-positive tests. In support of this hypothesis, we found chimeric transcripts consisting of viral fused to cellular sequences in published data sets of SARS-CoV-2 infected cultured cells and primary cells of patients, consistent with the transcription of viral sequences integrated into the genome. To experimentally corroborate the possibility of viral retro-integration, we describe evidence that SARS-CoV-2 RNAs can be reverse transcribed in human cells by reverse transcriptase (RT) from LINE-1 elements or by HIV-1 RT, and that these DNA sequences can be integrated into the cell genome and subsequently be transcribed. Human endogenous LINE-1 expression was induced upon SARS-CoV-2 infection or by cytokine exposure in cultured cells, suggesting a molecular mechanism for SARS-CoV-2 retro-integration in patients. This novel feature of SARS-CoV-2 infection may explain why patients can continue to produce viral RNA after recovery and suggests a new aspect of RNA virus replication._​​*What this study is saying is they found evidence that the RNA of the SARS-COV2 virus might be being reverse transcribed and integrated into a person's DNA.*

_This novel feature of SARS-CoV-2 infection *may explain why patients can continue to produce viral RNA after recovery and suggests a new aspect of RNA virus replication*._


----------



## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

So then, what's the purpose of Vaccination passports? I'd think if TPTB wanted to push passports, they'd be burying this information.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Vaccines are not that effective. Bad batch, improper storage, improper bottle shaking, immune system fighting something else on shot day, and a long list of other things that can hold back something that is only marginally effective to begin with. Their best use is in an instance you have a closed population, in other words shut the gate, don't dump any more steers from the market. Vaccinate every single herd member. Booster every herd member. Vaccinate every new addition, quarantining adults (new bull) wait until maternal antibodies are not being consumed in fresh milk (born on farm to vaccinated mother) vaccinate calfs near weaning. 

With unvaccinated animals passing through daily through absent fences, bringing mutated diseases from far away herds, some herd members able to refuse (the mean cow that tried to tear down the chute last time) and the fact that it is a brand new vaccine that is largely unproven, as a herd manager, I wouldn't waste a dime on it. I would combat this with good management practices, which would limit comorbdities, and call it a day.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mzgarden said:


> So then, what's the purpose of Vaccination passports? I'd think if TPTB wanted to push passports, they'd be burying this information.


Actually, 102 cases out of 1 million people vaccinated is a very small number. The public should be encouraged by this news.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

According to COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista 18 deaths due to COVID, per million is the average for the past 7 days here in the US.
Which do you prefer?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> According to COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista 18 deaths due to COVID, per million is the average for the past 7 days here in the US.
> Which do you prefer?


Which of what do we prefer?


----------



## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

mzgarden said:


> So then, what's the purpose of Vaccination passports? I'd think if TPTB wanted to push passports, they'd be burying this information.


the purpose of the passports is control...


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

“They” can keep their vaccines and everything that goes along with them.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

stars at night said:


> the purpose of the passports is control...


Yes so businesses can control access for health reasons.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

keenataz said:


> Yes so businesses can control access for health reasons.


The idea is to give businesses the opportunity to operate without restrictions, like the "cruises to nowhere" they are organizing in Europe. But the covid passport will probably be required for some things, such as commercial flights and entry to some countries.

I've been expecting to see it in Las Vegas resorts, but I'm not aware of any so far.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

keenataz said:


> Yes so businesses can control access for health reasons.


I'm not fond of the idea of any business accessing my health information, especially since many large businesses seem to find credit card information a struggle to keep confidential. 

What do you feel should happen to those who have been advised by their doctors to not take the vaccine? I believe Canada has laws against discriminating against people with physical disabilities and it's illegal to ask about medical information. 

Currently, many seem to feel it's absolutely okay to openly ask people with medical disabilities about their medical information and to deny them access to essential services (grocery stores and pharmacies) if they are unable to wear masks. 

In my opinon, it's not okay to violate some laws because someone feels it's for the greater good.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I'm not fond of the idea of any business accessing my health information


They won't have access to your medical records. The covid passport is a binary thing; you either got the vaccine or you didn't. The only details would be the date you were vaccinated and which vaccine you got.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

wr said:


> Currently, many seem to feel it's absolutely okay to openly ask people with medical disabilities about their medical information and to deny them access to essential services (grocery stores and pharmacies) if they are unable to wear masks.


 In my community, alternate arrangements are made and that covers the disability act. You can have curbside pick up, you can have home delivery. These are accommodations for disability acts.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Nevada said:


> They won't have access to your medical records. The covid passport is a binary thing; you either got the vaccine or you didn't. The only details would be the date you were vaccinated and which vaccine you got.


You know there are many who won't believe that.


----------



## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> “They” can keep their vaccines and everything that goes along with them.


yes, they can until they make it mandatory or the law....


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

keenataz said:


> In my community, alternate arrangements are made and that covers the disability act. You can have curbside pick up, you can have home delivery. These are accommodations for disability acts.


I think you missed my point entirely. If mass vaccination is our goal, should those who can't vaccinate for medical reasons be denied access to those essential services? 

It seems to me that most of the population will be vaccinated and the risk to others would be minimal so why should they remain locked away?


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> They won't have access to your medical records. The covid passport is a binary thing; you either got the vaccine or you didn't. The only details would be the date you were vaccinated and which vaccine you got.


Forgive me, I assumed that was medical information. Can you explain how it isn't? 

One of the store managers I spoke to the other day, indicated that they intend to keep that information on file to streamline things.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Vaccines that don’t work.
Injection documents.
Travel restrictions.
Show us your papers.
If you don’t understand the control tactics in play here, you need to study history.

This isn’t about keeping business controlling access for health reasons. That is the party line. There is a much bigger event unfolding.

Who makes the decisions about “greater good.” The ones who short cut the testing? The ones who sent sick people to nursing homes? The ones who are now saying OOPS?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

wr said:


> I think you missed my point entirely. If mass vaccination is our goal, should those who can't vaccinate for medical reasons be denied access to those essential services?
> 
> It seems to me that most of the population will be vaccinated and the risk to others would be minimal so why should they remain locked away?


A blue card for the vaccinated and a yellow card for the exempted and a credit/debit card and internet for the rest of us.


----------



## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

keenataz said:


> Yes so businesses can control access for health reasons.


that but more for the gov't to keep control of the masses. Think about the first thing Hitler did to separate the Jews from gentiles....gold star on clothing. Now that got everyone's attention. If you didn't have your 'papers' in Europe, you could be hauled off to God knows where. Hitler believed Jews were unclean among other things (nevermind he was a Jew too) and must be elimated so the Aryan race could populate world world with a pure race. Then came the ghettos...and hopefully you all know the rest so history doesn't repeat itself.


----------



## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Vaccines that don’t work.
> Injection documents.
> Travel restrictions.
> Show us your papers.
> ...


Alice, my friend! This is right on!


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It started with propaganda and promises. Yellow stars, ghettos, Kristallnacht, and gas chambers came later.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

keenataz said:


> You know there are many who won't believe that.



And there should be no one with half a brain that does believe it.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> It seems to me that most of the population will be vaccinated and the risk to others would be minimal so why should they remain locked away?


If covid passports are used they won't be used for very long. That's the best argument for not doing it. I expect to resume life as usual starting around the end of summer.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Doesn't appear they will be used at all here.
Florida Gov Ron DeSantis to issue executive order banning vaccine passports


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

keenataz said:


> In my community, alternate arrangements are made and that covers the disability act. You can have curbside pick up, you can have home delivery. These are accommodations for disability acts.


Those curbside pick ups and home delivery cost more and require you to pay with credit card. Pay more and be treated like a leper unworthy to be in the same space as others is no kind of a solution.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> If covid passports are used they won't be used for very long. That's the best argument for not doing it. I expect to resume life as usual starting around the end of summer.


You ignored my other concern completely, which was expected. Are vaccinations not considered medical information or are they only medical information when we can justify as being 'for the greater good?' 

I can think of countless laws enacted that were intended for a short period of time post 9/11 that have remained in place and I'm sure this will be no different.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

How many of our expectations panned out since the two week shut down?


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SLFarmMI said:


> Those curbside pick ups and home delivery cost more and require you to pay with credit card. Pay more and be treated like a leper unworthy to be in the same space as others is no kind of a solution.


It's also not available for each and every service a person may require. 

I tried curbside pickup for groceries once and found it frightfully expensive and no time is allowed to inspect. 

Our stores retained the right to substitutions so my $6 coffee was replaced with a $14 brand that I don't like, the toilet paper I ordered was replaced with paper towels (which I never use), and when I purchase produce, I buy a combination of ripe and not ripe so I don't have to go to town for a week but I received wilted or over ripe produce and my coffee cream was replaced with a 4L jug of 2% milk. 

My normal $125 grocery run was way closer to $180, which is a big hit for someone on a fixed disability income. 

It seems to be of little concern to others but those are the people already struggling emotionally and we're putting them under greater emotional stress by keeping them locked up, because others seeming know what's best for them.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> Forgive me, I assumed that was medical information. Can you explain how it isn't?


Sure. You can choose not to present your covid passport even if you have one. Nobody is forcing you to show it. But we already have laws in place that require showing certain immunization records to some persons. For example, you'll need to show immunization records when enrolling your kids in school. Of course showing immunization records is a very narrow slice of your medical records that reveals very little, but you still have to do it if you want your kids to be in public school.. I suppose your could homeschool without showing records, but that's your choice.

The same would be true for requiring a covid passport to get on an commercial flight. You don't have to show it, but you'll have to drive instead.

The United States has always prided itself in our ability to band together and rise the the occasion when faced with adversity. We won't be able to say that about the covid-19 pandemic. I believe that getting vaccinated, observing social distancing, and wearing facemasks are patriotic acts which save American lives. For those who can remember back to 2001, saving American lives used to be patriotic.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

In 2001 the adversity came from outside the country.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Sure. You can choose not to present your covid passport even if you have one. Nobody is forcing you to show it. But we already have laws in place that require showing certain immunization records to some persons. For example, you'll need to show immunization records when enrolling your kids in school. Of course showing immunization records is a very narrow slice of your medical records that reveals very little, but you still have to do it if you want your kids to be in public school.. I suppose your could homeschool without showing records, but that's your choice.
> 
> The same would be true for requiring a covid passport to get on an commercial flight. You don't have to show it, but you'll have to drive instead.
> 
> The United States has always prided itself in our ability to band together and rise the the occasion when faced with adversity. We won't be able to say that about the covid-19 pandemic. I believe that getting vaccinated, observing social distancing, and wearing facemasks are patriotic acts which save American lives. For those who can remember back to 2001, saving American lives used to be patriotic.


Actually, most states have vaccination exemptions for enrolling your kids in schools. 

This is nothing more than attempting to coerce someone who cannot or does not wish to get the COVID vaccine into getting it. Getting a vaccine does not make you a better person or more patriotic than someone who does not get one.

Here's a wild idea. How about you make the decision regarding a vaccine that you feel is best for you and I make the decision that is best for me? You don't try to force, coerce, browbeat or bully me into making the decision you want and I don't try to force, coerce, browbeat or bully you into making the decision I want.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> In 2001 the adversity came from outside the country.


I'm not sure how that changes our resolve to rise to the occasion. But it's fair to point-out that covid-19 also came from outside the country.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

wr said:


> It's also not available for each and every service a person may require.
> 
> I tried curbside pickup for groceries once and found it frightfully expensive and no time is allowed to inspect.
> 
> ...


I agree. I prefer to pick my own groceries and make my own decisions on any substitutions. No way would I ever do curbside pick up for groceries.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Here's a wild idea. How about you make the decision regarding a vaccine that you feel is best for you and I make the decision that is best for me?


That's fine, but you can't complain about ongoing restrictions. The fewer people who accept the vaccine, the longer this pandemic will drag on.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The government response, which is the bigger threat, comes from within.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nevada, the news is that the injection doesn’t stop it. Surely you have seen that. The duration of the virus episode isn’t related to failed injection mandates.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That's fine, but you can't complain about ongoing restrictions. The fewer people who accept the vaccine, the longer this pandemic will drag on.


You can't deny that there are legitimate reasons for someone to not want to take a brand new vaccine that has no data on long term side effects.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Here's a wild idea. How about you make the decision regarding a vaccine that you feel is best for you and I make the decision that is best for me? You don't try to force, coerce, browbeat or bully me into making the decision you want and I don't try to force, coerce, browbeat or bully you into making the decision I want.


And private businesses make the decision about what is best for their business? So if they require a vaccine card or won’t do business with you, presumably that’s okay too?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nevada, the news is that the injection doesn’t stop it. Surely you have seen that. The duration of the virus episode isn’t related to failed injection mandates.


102 cases with 1 million vaccinated. That's a pretty good record. That's 0.01%., or one case in 10,000 vaccinated people.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> And private businesses make the decision about what is best for their business? So if they require a vaccine card or won’t do business with you, presumably that’s okay too?


Why do you have a problem with that? Just go to a different restaurant.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Why do you have a problem with that? Just go to a different restaurant.


Why do you think I have a problem with that? 
I don’t.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> And private businesses make the decision about what is best for their business? So if they require a vaccine card or won’t do business with you, presumably that’s okay too?


It's bad policy, plain and simple. You should not have to provide your medical information, which is what a vaccine card is, to go to the grocery store, for example. Where does it end? Should I have to show that I've been vaccinated for chicken pox, which is highly contagious, to enter the hardware store?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> Why do you think I have a problem with that?
> I don’t.


I also have no problems with employers and schools requiring proof of vaccine unless there is a clear medical reason to not be vaccinated. Just like parents have to present at their public schools to enroll their kids.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's bad policy, plain and simple. You should not have to provide your medical information, which is what a vaccine card is, to go to the grocery store, for example. Where does it end? Should I have to show that I've been vaccinated for chicken pox, which is highly contagious, to enter the hardware store?


That’s your opinion. A vaccine card is no different than having to present proof of vaccination to enroll your kids at school. It disclosed no other information other than vaccine status. Just like kids shot records. If you have a medical reason that forces you to opt out than that’s not hard to prove.
No one is forcing you to patronize said business. Go elsewhere where they don’t ask for proof of vaccine. Your rights end where others begin.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> Why do you think I have a problem with that?
> I don’t.


Sorry. I'm doing three things at once here.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

How about businesses that require food workers to have a negative TB test? Should that not be allowed either? Or drug tests by employers? Is that not disclosing medical information?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> That’s your opinion. A vaccine card is no different than having to present proof of vaccination to enroll your kids at school. It disclosed no other information other than vaccine status. Just like kids shot records. If you have a medical reason that forces you to opt out than that’s not hard to prove.
> No one is forcing you to patronize said business. Go elsewhere where they don’t ask for proof of vaccine. Your rights end where others begin.


And that's your opinion. If you're fine with living in a "show your papers" community, that's up to you. I'm not. 

This whole "vaccine card" business is just another way for folks to try to coerce people into getting a COVID vaccine. Although they only seem to care about COVID and not the wide variety of contagious viruses that people they come into contact with every day may be carrying.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> And that's your opinion. If you're fine with living in a "show your papers" community, that's up to you. I'm not.
> 
> This whole "vaccine card" business is just another way for folks to try to coerce people into getting a COVID vaccine. Although they only seem to care about COVID and not the wide variety of contagious viruses that people they come into contact with every day may be carrying.


We already do live in a “show your papers” community and you work for a “show your papers” entity. So clearly you’re fine with the idea, you just don’t want this particular vaccine, so you’re amping up the hyperbole.

Are you against schools requiring childhood immunizations or healthcare and food workers being “Forced” to get tuberculosis tests?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> We already do live in a “show your papers” community and you work for a “show your papers” entity. So clearly you’re fine with the idea, you just don’t want this particular vaccine, so you’re amping up the hyperbole.
> 
> Are you against schools requiring childhood immunizations or healthcare and food workers being “Forced” to get tuberculosis tests?


Are you unaware that parents can opt out of immunizations and still enroll their children in school in the vast majority of states? 

BTW, in my entire career, never did any district I ever worked for require me to show proof of any vaccination for any disease. 

Why are you so seemingly eager to give up even more of your privacy?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Are you unaware that parents can opt out of immunizations and still enroll their children in school in the vast majority of states?
> 
> BTW, in my entire career, never did any district I ever worked for require me to show proof of any vaccination for any disease.
> 
> Why are you so seemingly eager to give up even more of your privacy?


The vast majority of states no longer allow exemptions for “personal belief”. Only for religious and medical exemptions and more are going toward only medical exemptions.
I‘ll bet your school district requires the children you teach to provide proof of immunization barring exemption. 
Asking for proof of vaccine is not giving up any privacy rights that school kids aren’t already required to give up or healthcare or food workers. If you don’t want to be vaccinated, simply take your business elsewhere to an employer or business that doesn’t ask for vaccine proof?
Why should your rights trump those of business owners?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Are you unaware that parents can opt out of immunizations and still enroll their children in school in the vast majority of states?
> 
> BTW, in my entire career, never did any district I ever worked for require me to show proof of any vaccination for any disease.
> 
> Why are you so seemingly eager to give up even more of your privacy?


What about drug testing that’s required for certain occupations or people? Do you want to ban that too? If you think requiring proof ofvaccine is giving up privacy then why is drug or TB testing allowed?
Some occupations and employers require psychological testing too. Do you want to ban that?
Most police departments require psychological screening. That seems more of a privacy violation than requiring A vaccine. I’m assuming you’re against that too?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> There is a much bigger event unfolding.


What do you think it is?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> How about businesses that require food workers to have a negative TB test? Should that not be allowed either? Or drug tests by employers? Is that not disclosing medical information?


Are you Ok if the vaccine passport restrict travel from state to state, or getting on a bus, or an airplane, going to a movie, a grocery store?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> The vast majority of states no longer allow exemptions for “personal belief”. Only for religious and medical exemptions and more are going toward only medical exemptions.
> I‘ll bet your school district requires the children you teach to provide proof of immunization barring exemption.
> Asking for proof of vaccine is not giving up any privacy rights that school kids aren’t already required to give up or healthcare or food workers. If you don’t want to be vaccinated, simply take your business elsewhere to an employer or business that doesn’t ask for vaccine proof?
> Why should your rights trump those of business owners?


Why should the business owner's rights be allowed to trump mine? What about the businesses that are the only game in town? Unvaccinated people should just twist in the wind? 

This is just another way for those who are in favor of this vaccine to try to coerce those who can't or don't want to get the vaccine to get it.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Are you Ok if the vaccine passport restrict travel from state to state, or getting on a bus, or an airplane, going to a movie, a grocery store?


I don’t believe that restrictions on interstate travel are necessarily legal. If private businesses like airlines, movies or grocery stores want to require them then that’s fine.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> That's fine, but you can't complain about ongoing restrictions.


Of course we can.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Are you Ok if the vaccine passport restrict travel from state to state, or getting on a bus, or an airplane, going to a movie, a grocery store?


It's almost as if people don't realize that, every day of their lives, they are exposed to people who may have a variety of contagious diseases for which they are unvaccinated.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> I don’t believe that restrictions on interstate travel are necessarily legal. If private businesses like airlines, movies or grocery stores want to require them then that’s fine.


(CNN) — ... some states continue to enforce travel restrictions and quarantines - Covid-19 travel restrictions state by state

How would a person buy groceries, or fly for work?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Why do you have a problem with that? Just go to a different restaurant.


I agree, and that is what I would do. 
I may or may not have asked them to bake me a cake for my life partners and I's anniversary beforehand though. We can sort out what they turned me away for later.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

[


HDRider said:


> (CNN) — ... some states continue to enforce travel restrictions and quarantines - Covid-19 travel restrictions state by state
> 
> How would a person buy groceries, or fly for work?


they’d go to a different airline or take a different mode of transportatio. I’m not aware that any of us have guaranteed rights to fly a particular airline, or use a particular grocery store.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> I agree, and that is what I would do.
> I may or may not have asked them to bake me a cake for my life partners and I's anniversary beforehand though. We can sort out what they turned me away for later.


I don’t believe the bakers should be required to bake a wedding cake for something that is against their religion either. Business owners should have rights as well. If they won’t serve gay people at all, that’s a different issue.
As far as I know, anti-vaxxers are not a protected class.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> [
> 
> 
> they’d go to a different airline or take a different mode of transportation. I’m not aware that any of us have guaranteed rights to fly a particular airline, or use a particular grocery store.


What if all airlines require it? All grocery stores?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> What if all airlines require it? All grocery stores?


Then you don’t fly and you use Instacart or curbside pickup.
im not aware of any god given rights to fly or pick your own produce.
Or get vaccinated.
What if all bakers decline to bake wedding cakes for gay couples?


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> I don’t believe the bakers should be required to bake a wedding cake for something that is against their religion either. Business owners should have rights as well. If they won’t serve gay people at all, that’s a different issue.
> As far as I know, anti-vaxxers are not a protected class.


Not everyone refusing this shot is an anti-vaxxer. Even were I to get this vaccine, I darn sure wouldn't show some nosy corporate entity any proof of it. Or I may use @GunMonkeyIntl version.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Then you don’t fly and you use Instacart or curbside pickup.
> im not aware of any god given rights to fly or pick your own produce.
> Or get vaccinated.
> What if all bakers decline to bake wedding cakes for gay couples?


In essence you support no choice other than get vaccinated.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> Not everyone refusing this shot is an anti-vaxxer. Even were I to get this vaccine, I darn sure wouldn't show some nosy corporate entity any proof of it. Or I may use @GunMonkeyIntl version.


That’s your choice. Why should business owners not have a choice?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> In essence you support no choice other than get vaccinated.


Nope. I think we should all have a choice. 
do you support no choice for business owners?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Nope. I think we should all have a choice.
> do you support no choice for business owners?


If no grocery store will let me in, or no airline will let me board, or no whatever will permit my admission, you are saying you support mandatory vaccination, whether you are willing to say it plainly or not. 

Just so you know, many place do not have Instacart.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I suspect some states *will* support vaccination passports and some *will not*. Another wedge.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm definitely not anti-vax, since I need to keep up to date to travel in some areas of the world. I'm not in the age group to get the covid vax now but my doctor recommended I take the J&J one. I also as of 6 weeks ago still have antibodies from catching the bug at sometime. Doc is not sure what the recommendation would be, he hasn't been able to find any information on it. 

Now in my area they are releasing immigrants without testing or vaccinations, it certainly raises the question of what is going on. 

I do want a choice in which vaccination I am forced to take.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> That’s your choice. Why should business owners not have a choice?


HIPAA


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> I don’t believe the bakers should be required to bake a wedding cake for something that is against their religion either. Business owners should have rights as well. If they won’t serve gay people at all, that’s a different issue.
> As far as I know, anti-vaxxers are not a protected class.


I enjoy absolute freedom. 
There have been days I considered putting a sign out that stated I reserve the right to serve no one.
It appears however to unnerve folks from several different perspectives.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Um... why are you arguing about showing vaccination cards. Is anybody requiring vaccination cards? No. Some of the cruise lines are requiring a negative Covid test and in order to get any elective surgery or some of the medical treatments around here you need a negative covid test.

Possibly when borders open up, a vaccination card might be required to cross borders, but I think it is much more likely to be a negativr Covid test that is required. But not happening yet.

Nobody is requiring a vaccination card.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I suspect some states *will* support vaccination passports and some *will not*. Another wedge.


Individual states rights or restrictions don't have to be a wedge. As long as every state isn't an Illinois/New York/California we can also do business as we choose. That is the beauty of not having to live under the final word of the Feds.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> HIPAA


HIPAA doesn’t apply unless a business is disclosing accommodations made because of a disability.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

oregon woodsmok said:


> why are you arguing about showing vaccination cards


There is a federal proposal floating around to create a vaccination passport. It is reasonable to expect it might be instituted.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> That is the beauty of not having to live under the final word of the Feds.


I am not sure that "beauty" exists.


----------



## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I seem to remember some posters here and elsewhere saying if you're "scared" stay home when discussing mask wearing.
Well....there's the option, stay home, or present a passport that can be used if it ever (and I don't think it will) comes to gaining entry to the grocery store.

Maybe they could have something as simple as different shopping hours or shopping days for the unvaccinated. Different flights. Etc.
It's pretty clear that not everyone will be taking advantage of the vaccine. A good business would try and figure out how to serve all customers.

I would actually feel less intruded upon by the possibility of showing a vaccine passport, than I did with getting a drivers license that uses real ID.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Um... why are you arguing about showing vaccination cards. Is anybody requiring vaccination cards? No. Some of the cruise lines are requiring a negative Covid test and in order to get any elective surgery or some of the medical treatments around here you need a negative covid test.
> 
> Possibly when borders open up, a vaccination card might be required to cross borders, but I think it is much more likely to be a negativr Covid test that is required. But not happening yet.
> 
> Nobody is requiring a vaccination card.


Maybe not a card but certainly proof of vaccination is beginning and once the proof of vaccination is required then compelling all to carry a card (or more likely mobile app) will be but a moment behind. Already Rutgers University is requiring all students to have proof of vaccination beginning fall.

Incidentally, the mobile app will also, "for the person's convenience", store a myriad of other information, medical and otherwise. See NY Excelsior Pass or Microsoft's CoronaPass, or the LA Unified School District's DailyPass being lauded as the "Golden Ticket" from Willy Wanka.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

wr said:


> I think you missed my point entirely. If mass vaccination is our goal, should those who can't vaccinate for medical reasons be denied access to those essential services?
> 
> It seems to me that most of the population will be vaccinated and the risk to others would be minimal so why should they remain locked away?


I did miss your point. Once mass vaccination is complete, it will be up to the unvaccinated what to do. I would certainly hope the rest of us, go on with our days.


----------



## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> In essence you support no choice other than get vaccinated.


She's doing a better job of supporting individual rights then you are right now.

I'm not for vaccine passports, but individuals and businesses do have the right to choose who they interact with. Without that we are on a slippery slope


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

stars at night said:


> that but more for the gov't to keep control of the masses. Think about the first thing Hitler did to separate the Jews from gentiles....gold star on clothing. Now that got everyone's attention. If you didn't have your 'papers' in Europe, you could be hauled off to God knows where. Hitler believed Jews were unclean among other things (nevermind he was a Jew too) and must be elimated so the Aryan race could populate world world with a pure race. Then came the ghettos...and hopefully you all know the rest so history doesn't repeat itself.


You realize it is not the government who will be asking for your passport. It is the bar, the baseball stadium, the restaurant, concert venue. A cop is not going to come up to you and ask to see your papers.

You lost me when you claimed Hitler was Jew. History and facts matter


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> Those curbside pick ups and home delivery cost more and require you to pay with credit card. Pay more and be treated like a leper unworthy to be in the same space as others is no kind of a solution.


It is an accommodation. That is what disability acts require. If a disabled person cannot access something, an accommodation has to be offered.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> I agree. I prefer to pick my own groceries and make my own decisions on any substitutions. No way would I ever do curbside pick up for groceries.


Than that is your choice if you don't accept the accommodation offered for your disability. And not wanting to get a vaccine is not a disability, it is a choice.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

coolrunnin said:


> She's doing a better job of supporting individual rights then you are right now.
> 
> I'm not for vaccine passports, but individuals and businesses do have the right to choose who they interact with. Without that we are on a slippery slope


No, HIPAA was passed in part to keep your gym owner from asking if you are HIV positive and your grocer from asking if you have the flu. Lisa is just looking at part of the law and not the court rulings since, imho. Your employer, your insurer, your healthcare provider have legal access to that information, but it is limited what they can do with it. The guy stocking the apples at the store does not have the legal right to ask for your healthcare info/data.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's bad policy, plain and simple. You should not have to provide your medical information, which is what a vaccine card is, to go to the grocery store, for example. Where does it end? Should I have to show that I've been vaccinated for chicken pox, which is highly contagious, to enter the hardware store?


If there is a chicken pox epidemic, maybe so.

And here kids have to supply vaccination records to go to school. Not a big deal.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Chinese officials and volunteers sealed off buildings, erected barricades and stepped up surveillance to ensure compliance with the ban on movement, measures that are taking a toll on many in the community.

Those of you that agree that a vaccine passport should be required to fly, to shop, and to travel are in fact advocating for the same effect. Many of you have even said, those without a passport have the choice to stay home. Are YOU going to bring a hammer and nails to my door.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should the business owner's rights be allowed to trump mine? What about the businesses that are the only game in town? Unvaccinated people should just twist in the wind?
> 
> This is just another way for those who are in favor of this vaccine to try to coerce those who can't or don't want to get the vaccine to get it.


Yup it is their choice based on public health. No one is forcing you to get a vaccine, just don't expect to go to that concert or baseball game.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's almost as if people don't realize that, every day of their lives, they are exposed to people who may have a variety of contagious diseases for which they are unvaccinated.


Such as... and are they deadly.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

There is a big difference in forcing someone to take a vaccine that went through standard trials and tests, than there is forcing a vaccine rushed to the arms of every living American


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Chinese officials and volunteers sealed off buildings, erected barricades and stepped up surveillance to ensure compliance with the ban on movement, measures that are taking a toll on many in the community.
> 
> Those of you that agree that a vaccine passport should be required to fly, to shop, and to travel are in fact advocating for the same effect. Many of you have even said, those without a passport have the choice to stay home. Are YOU going to bring a hammer and nails to my door.


Nope. Just if you want to go to a major event like a concert or ball game. You can go visit Ted next door, you can drive down the street, go to Smith Park, etc.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> Yup it is their choice based on public health. No one is forcing you to get a vaccine, just don't expect to go to that concert or baseball game.


or the grocery store


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> Nope. Just if you want to go to a major event like a concert or ball game. You can go visit Ted next door, you can drive down the street, go to Smith Park, etc.


What about traveling on public transport, or going to the grocery store?


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> There is a big difference in forcing someone to take a vaccine that went through standard trials and tests, than there is forcing a vaccine rushed to the arms of every living American


Two things-if you get the vaccine or not, is your choice. I have not had to make that choice yet. But I will decide for myself. And if I don't, I accept I may not be able to go to a movie or football game. Again my choice.

The second-people are getting quite riled about something that has not even been proposed.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> What about traveling on public transport, or going to the grocery store?


Public transport? I guess that is their decision. But I would assume it may require masks.

Grocery store?-tough question and I admit it. I think if it is needed for common everyday things like that, I would be against it.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Um... why are you arguing about showing vaccination cards.


Because arguing is fun!


----------



## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

keenataz said:


> You realize it is not the government who will be asking for your passport. It is the bar, the baseball stadium, the restaurant, concert venue. A cop is not going to come up to you and ask to see your papers.
> 
> You lost me when you claimed Hitler was Jew. History and facts matter


The study, titled “Aus den Gemeinden von Burgenland: Revisiting the question of Adolf Hitler’s paternal grandfather,” which was published in the current issue of the _Journal of European Studies_, examines claims by Hitler’s lawyer Hans Frank, who allegedly discovered the truth.

Hitler asked Frank to look into the claim in 1930, after his nephew William Patrick Hitler threatened to expose that the leader’s grandfather was Jewish.

In his 1946 memoir, which was published seven years after he was executed during the Nuremberg trials, “Frank claimed to have uncovered evidence in 1930 that Hitler’s paternal grandfather was a Jewish man living in Graz, Austria, in the household where Hitler’s grandmother was employed,” and it was in 1836 that Hitler’s grandmother Maria Anna Schicklgruber became pregnant, Sax explained.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

keenataz said:


> Such as... and are they deadly.


Pick a virus of your choice and, yes, they can be deadly.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

keenataz said:


> Than that is your choice if you don't accept the accommodation offered for your disability. And not wanting to get a vaccine is not a disability, it is a choice.


Curbside pickup and home delivery aren't accommodations for a disability. And being unvaccinated is a perfectly reasonable and appropriate individual choice that should not be punished by exclusion from public places.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

keenataz said:


> You realize it is not the government who will be asking for your passport. It is the bar, the baseball stadium, the restaurant, concert venue. A cop is not going to come up to you and ask to see your papers.
> 
> You lost me when you claimed Hitler was Jew. History and facts matter


And none of those places have any legitimate right to my medical information.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Hiro said:


> No, HIPAA was passed in part to keep your gym owner from asking if you are HIV positive and your grocer from asking if you have the flu. Lisa is just looking at part of the law and not the court rulings since, imho. Your employer, your insurer, your healthcare provider have legal access to that information, but it is limited what they can do with it. The guy stocking the apples at the store does not have the legal right to ask for your healthcare info/data.


Actually It's the American with Disabilities Act that limits businesses or any other entity from asking about your medical information. 

HIPAA is about disclosure of medical information and the ability to share your medical data amongst and between healthcare providers and insurers.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I suspect some states *will* support vaccination passports and some *will not*. Another wedge.


I don't know if there's time to develop a covid passport program. I believe we're maybe 6 months from beating this pandemic. Given that it will take a few months to roll out a passport system, there's not a lot of time where it will be effective.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

We co


Nevada said:


> 102 cases with 1 million vaccinated. That's a pretty good record. That's 0.01%., or one case in 10,000 vaccinated people.


And what was the infection rate for covid at 3 months into the pandemic?


----------



## Bront (Jan 26, 2021)

Always amusing to read people afraid of being controlled. But they never say how they are being pwnd..

Unfortunately their a little late in their concerns. Big brother knows who you are, where you live, what 

your bank account looks like, how you spend your money and on and on. People that work demographics

and are good at it are valued by businesses, banks and the govt. as much as people that handle your

money. guaranteed...


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

keenataz said:


> Two things-if you get the vaccine or not, is your choice. I have not had to make that choice yet. But I will decide for myself. And if I don't, I accept I may not be able to go to a movie or football game. Again my choice.
> 
> The second-*people are getting quite riled about something that has not even been proposed.*


Vaccine passports most certainly have been proposed and are being pursued by multiple entities and with greater frequency and enthusiasm. Granted they are not yet state sponsored but they are certainly "state" encouraged. All one has to do is refer to Biden's talking points. New York already has the Excelsior program up and running and that was promoted by the governor. LA schools, which is a public entity, has partnered with Microsoft to get a digital passport up and running. So yes, there are proposals aplenty. 



keenataz said:


> *Public transport? *I guess that is their decision. But I would assume it may require masks.
> 
> Grocery store?-tough question and I admit it. I think if it is needed for common everyday things like that, I would be against it.


Public transport it by it's very nature (it's in the name after all) publicly supported and at least partially funded. So if public transportation requires it that would indicate by extension that the government is mandating it and that is where you start running into some very concerning territory. 

Mask mandates and other requirements have thus far been implemented under "emergency authorizations" and as such are supposed to be temporary. So far, because they are still under emergency temporary conditions, they have been upheld and not seen as an undue restriction of freedom but as is starting to happen in pockets around the country, courts are loosing patience with this operating condition and are starting to wonder what the definition of "temporary emergency authorization" is, and when and how it will end.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bront said:


> Always amusing to read people afraid of being controlled. But they never say how they are being pwnd..


I can't help but remember me arguing that the government was going too far with surveillance after 9/11. I can tell you that I was a lone voice around here back then, but it seemed that conservatives didn't mind government surveillance.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> No, HIPAA was passed in part to keep your gym owner from asking if you are HIV positive and your grocer from asking if you have the flu. Lisa is just looking at part of the law and not the court rulings since, imho. Your employer, your insurer, your healthcare provider have legal access to that information, but it is limited what they can do with it. The guy stocking the apples at the store does not have the legal right to ask for your healthcare info/data.


if You consider asking for proof of vaccine is asking about your healthcare history than how do you suppose businesses, medical,offices, hospitals, courthouses, etc are taking temperatures, asking about your health and travel history, requiring negative Covid tests, etc? And how do school secretaries and college health centers ask for student shot records? Please show me the cases where this has been shown to violate HIPAA.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I can't help but remember me arguing that the government was going too far with surveillance after 9/11. I can tell you that I was a lone voice around here back then, but it seemed that conservatives didn't mind government surveillance.


Really?? I minded it! Thought and still think it is obtrusive. I believe we need to be extremely judicious before we give up our freedoms in the interest of security


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> if You consider asking for proof of vaccine is asking about your healthcare history than how do you suppose businesses, medical,offices, hospitals, courthouses, etc are taking temperatures, asking about your health and travel history, requiring negative Covid tests, etc? And how do school secretaries and college health centers ask for student shot records? Please show me the cases where this has been shown to violate HIPAA.


Vaccination history is, by definition, part of your medical record/history. Taking a current temperature is your current status. As far as some states requiring you to fill out paperwork and self-quarantine when you arrive, I guess it depends on whether you are a citizen, serf or are exempted by just walking across the border. The school angle is actually covered under HIPAA as a government entity that can just be avoided by citing a religious objection, whether it really is true or not. You know, kind of like faking a vaccine certificate. 

I do not understand why, if this vaccine is as effective as advertised, vaccinated people are terribly concerned about us in the great unwashed masses.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> Vaccination history is, by definition, part of your medical record/history. Taking a current temperature is your current status. As far as some states requiring you to fill out paperwork and self-quarantine when you arrive, I guess it depends on whether you are a citizen, serf or are exempted by just walking across the border. The school angle is actually covered under HIPAA as a government entity that can just be avoided by citing a religious objection, whether it really is true or not. You know, kind of like faking a vaccine certificate.
> 
> I do not understand why, if this vaccine is as effective as advertised, vaccinated people are terribly concerned about us in the great unwashed masses.


Many states have banned religious and person belief objections to vaccination. I know of at least five that will only take a medical exemption or they can’t attend public school. 
I was just helping my daughter and her boyfriend move and asked if asking for proof of vaccine is a violation of HIPAA. They both (lawyers) said no and I don’t know the legal grounds and you obviously don’t know if I’m making it up so you can take it with a grain of salt. I should’ve mentioned it to his dad who was there helping. He’s a federal judge.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> Many states have banned religious and person belief objections to vaccination. I know of at least five that will only take a medical exemption or they can’t attend public school.
> I was just helping my daughter and her boyfriend move and asked if asking for proof of vaccine is a violation of HIPAA. They both (lawyers) said no and I don’t know the legal grounds and you obviously don’t know if I’m making it up so you can take it with a grain of salt. I should’ve mentioned it to his dad who was there helping. He’s a federal judge.


It is for the greater good. And being a federal judge certainly does make it sound familiar......

Any interest in responding to my last sentence in my prior post?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> It is for the greater good. And being a federal judge certainly does make it sound familiar......
> 
> Any interest in responding to my last sentence in my prior post?


Im not exactly sure what you’re implying there, but As I said, I didn’t ask the judge. As far as your last question, Absolutely. It’s the same question asked over and over by people who are against vaccination. Because no vaccine is 100 percent effective in every person and some people genuinely can’t be vaccinated because of health issues.
Do you also disagree with MMRs, DPTS, etc? Do you have an issue with businesses requiring mask? Short and shoes?
I’m not advocating mandatory vaccines. But if a business, etc wants to protect their customers and employees I see no reason legally or ethically that they shouldnt. The state of being unvaccinated is not a protected class.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

sharkerbaby said:


> Really?? I minded it! Thought and still think it is obtrusive. I believe we need to be extremely judicious before we give up our freedoms in the interest of security


I was a lone voice.

Conservatives told me that I simply didn't understand what Muslims were capable of. They promised that GWB would give our rights back if we only would give him what he wanted and let him do his job. 20 years later I'm still waiting for our rights to be restored.

Balance that against immunization records.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> Im not exactly sure what you’re implying there, but As I said, I didn’t ask the judge. As far as your last question, Absolutely. It’s the same question asked over and over by people who are against vaccination. Because no vaccine is 100 percent effective in every person and some people genuinely can’t be vaccinated because of health issues.
> Do you also disagree with MMRs, DPTS, etc? Do you have an issue with businesses requiring mask? Short and shoes?
> I’m not advocating mandatory vaccines. But if a business, etc wants to protect their customers and employees I see no reason legally or ethically that they shouldnt. The state of being unvaccinated is not a protected class.


No vaccine is 100% effective. But, they are advertising the Pfizer Wuflu vaccine as 100% effective for 12-15 year olds. The most effective vaccine is the Rubella part of the MMR vaccine which is around 90%. But, they really did long term...as in years of data, objective data with testing of all participants to find those results. 

TPTB have been deceitful about all of this from day one. I do not understand how people can be so fervently convinced that a vaccine that has only existed for a few months can be trusted. Particularly, for a disease, while easily transmitted, is not a threat to a large part of the population. And, if it is so effective, why it is so important to convince people unlikely to be harmed from it or even know they have it, must be subjected to such an invasion of their privacy and potential excommunication from public accommodation. 

But, I am part of the great unwashed masses that just wants to be left alone.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> No vaccine is 100% effective. But, they are advertising the Pfizer Wuflu vaccine as 100% effective for 12-15 year olds. The most effective vaccine is the Rubella part of the MMR vaccine which is around 90%. But, they really did long term...as in years of data, objective data with testing of all participants to find those results.
> 
> TPTB have been deceitful about all of this from day one. I do not understand how people can be so fervently convinced that a vaccine that has only existed for a few months can be trusted. Particularly, for a disease, while easily transmitted, is not a threat to a large part of the population. And, if it is so effective, why it is so important to convince people unlikely to be harmed from it or even know they have it, must be subjected to such an invasion of their privacy and potential excommunication from public accommodation.
> 
> But, I am part of the great unwashed masses that just wants to be left alone.


I’m not going to get back into it about the vaccine. That isn’t really the point of this thread. 
But I believe businesses and other entities are well within their rights to require proof of vaccine, negative Covid test, etc and it’s not a violation of freedom. If enough people don’t want the shot, the free market will step in and there will be businesses that don’t require them.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Hiro said:


> Vaccination history is, by definition, part of your medical record/history. Taking a current temperature is your current status. As far as some states requiring you to fill out paperwork and self-quarantine when you arrive, I guess it depends on whether you are a citizen, serf or are exempted by just walking across the border. *The school angle is actually covered under HIPAA* as a government entity that can just be avoided by citing a religious objection, whether it really is true or not. You know, kind of like faking a vaccine certificate.
> 
> I do not understand why, if this vaccine is as effective as advertised, vaccinated people are terribly concerned about us in the great unwashed masses.


As was mentioned in another thread, school records are covered under FERPA not HIPAA. The effect is essentially the same but the regulation and the relevant entities that are restricted and/or protected are different.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I was a lone voice.
> 
> Conservatives told me that I simply didn't understand what Muslims were capable of. They promised that GWB would give our rights back if we only would give him what he wanted and let him do his job. 20 years later I'm still waiting for our rights to be restored.
> 
> Balance that against immunization records.


It's nice that all conservatives aren't the same then because I can assure you had I been around here then, even though I am very much a conservative, I would have been standing right next to you if your points were about American citizens be subjected to rigorous security checkpoints, intrusive search procedures, increased surveillance, and other such big brother oversight of US citizens.


----------



## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Hiro said:


> No, HIPAA was passed in part to keep your gym owner from asking if you are HIV positive and your grocer from asking if you have the flu. Lisa is just looking at part of the law and not the court rulings since, imho. Your employer, your insurer, your healthcare provider have legal access to that information, but it is limited what they can do with it. The guy stocking the apples at the store does not have the legal right to ask for your healthcare info/data.


What? Maybe you should read the actual statute. That isn't what hippa does.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should the business owner's rights be allowed to trump mine? What about the businesses that are the only game in town? Unvaccinated people should just twist in the wind?
> 
> This is just another way for those who are in favor of this vaccine to try to coerce those who can't or don't want to get the vaccine to get it.


The business owners rights to his own private property? Why do you suppose your rights would mean more than his in his business? If it’s the only business in town I suppose you’ll have to drive farther Or figure out another way to get your groceries. With freedom comes responsibility.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> The business owners rights to his own private property? Why do you suppose your rights would mean more than his in his business? If it’s the only business in town I suppose you’ll have to drive farther Or figure out another way to get your groceries. With freedom comes responsibility.


And what if every grocery store in the area has decided to implement this ridiculous "show me your papers" policy?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> And what if every grocery store in the area has decided to implement this ridiculous "show me your papers" policy?


I suppose you’ll have to do curbside service or get a shopper. Or drive farther.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

SLFarmMI said:


> And what if every grocery store in the area has decided to implement this ridiculous "show me your papers" policy?


I think you are being a bit hysterical. But to your question, as others already pointed out you will get to choose curbside pickup, or delivery. You get choices, and that is apparently your choice. The store may not want random sick guy coughing on staff and products.
I'm sure there will be renegade stores you can go where health codes are not enforced- same sort of idea as when smoking was banned indoors a few restaurants let smoking slide for awhile... maybe you can smoke and shop 
I have a business where the last thing I want is some selfish sicko infecting me or one of my staff- if my staff get sick I don't make any money. Health codes benefit my business....


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I suppose you’ll have to do curbside service or get a shopper. Or drive farther.


How much coercion is enough for you? Why should those who can not get or do not want this vaccine be effectively barred from public places?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

fireweed farm said:


> I think you are being a bit hysterical. But to your question, as others already pointed out you will get to choose curbside pickup, or delivery. You get choices, and that is apparently your choice. The store may not want random sick guy coughing on staff and products.
> I'm sure there will be renegade stores you can go where health codes are not enforced- same sort of idea as when smoking was banned indoors a few restaurants let smoking slide for awhile... maybe you can smoke and shop
> I have a business where the last thing I want is some selfish sicko infecting me or one of my staff- if my staff get sick I don't make any money. Health codes benefit my business....


I think you are being hysterical. You are making the incorrect assumption that someone who can not or does not want the COVID vaccine is "some selfish sicko". You are also making the assumption that curbside pickup or delivery is available everywhere which it is not. Why should those who don't want to be vaccinated, who can't be vaccinated or who don't want to be required to "show your papers" be punished for wanting to go about their lives?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> How much coercion is enough for you? Why should those who can not get or do not want this vaccine be effectively barred from public places?


I don’t really care one way or the other. If you don’t want the shot, don’t get it. But don’t expect everyone else to catee to you. Your freedom ends where others freedom begins. You don’t get to dictate how others run their businesses. Grow up


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I don’t really care one way or the other. If you don’t want the shot, don’t get it. But don’t expect everyone else to catee to you. Your freedom ends where others freedom begins. You don’t get to dictate how others run their businesses. Grow up


Unvaccinated people entering public places in no way infringes on your, or anyone else's, freedom. Grow up.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Unvaccinated people entering public places in no way infringes on your, or anyone else's, freedom. Grow up.


LOL.
yes...unvaccinated people can spread disease to people who are vaccinated or who can’t be vaccinated. This is why schools require vaccination. Business owners can choose their rules. I’ve been in restaurants taht require jackets and ties for men. ”But what if all the restaurants in the area require jacket and tie and I only have on a tee shirt and jeans?”
That would be your tough luck. You don’t get to set the rules because you don’t want to wear a jacket and tie. Their business...their rules.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I get my hair cut in a town in Idaho. There Is no mask mandate there and businesses pretty much do as they please. My salon doesn’t require masking of their customers. I wasn’t comfortable with the risk so I didn’t go till I was vaccinated. I didn’t call and whine and demand that they mask up to make me feel more comfortable. I didn’t go to businesses that didn’t enforce masking. It was a pain but it was my choice and I took responsibility for it. I didn’t demand people cater to me.
if you don’t want to vaccinate, fine. Take responsibility for your choice and abide by what others choose for themselves and their businesses.


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Oh boy, I can't wait to see how our "leadership" handles something more serious than a bad case of the flu in the near future.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I get my hair cut in a town in Idaho. There Is no mask mandate there and businesses pretty much do as they please. My salon doesn’t require masking of their customers. I wasn’t comfortable with the risk so I didn’t go till I was vaccinated. I didn’t call and whine and demand that they mask up to make me feel more comfortable. I didn’t go to businesses that didn’t enforce masking. It was a pain but it was my choice and I took responsibility for it. I didn’t demand people cater to me.
> if you don’t want to vaccinate, fine. Take responsibility for your choice and abide by what others choose for themselves and their businesses.


Did the salon ban you from entry because of your vaccination status? Did all the salons ban you from entry because of your vaccination status? No? Then your little anecdote holds no water. 

Those arguing in favor of a "show me your vaccination card" policy are arguing in favor of coercion to make someone inject a substance into their bodies against their will and/or against the medical advice of their doctors.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

While the debate over vaccination cards and consent, rights, etc carries on, that social credit score thingy has passed the horizon and is now setting up in universities, big tech, banking and corporations like Coca Cola. 
Paying your bills on time and keeping your grades up may soon not be enough of a measuring stick for loans and admission for higher education. Ok, maybe not now either, but
Wuflu and garbage consumables aren't the only thing China is sending over to us.


----------



## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I'm sure as the card carrying mandate progresses, the cost of a card will go down from it's now around $300.00 to get one from the Dark Web.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Those arguing in favor of a "show me your vaccination card" policy are arguing in favor of coercion to make someone inject a substance into their bodies against their will and/or against the medical advice of their doctors.


Agreed.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I can't help but remember me arguing that the government was going too far with surveillance after 9/11. I can tell you that I was a lone voice around here back then, but it seemed that conservatives didn't mind government surveillance.


Pull up the thread. I can assure you that I agreed with you back then. IIRC I commented about Orwell being off by a few years.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Those wanting vaccine passports are overlooking one important point which was the whole topic of this thread. Vaccinated people can still get sick of and die from covid. Just because a person has been fully vaccinated does not mean they cannot get covid. And now with less than 6 months into the vaccination program, and less than 30% of the population having received the vaccination, TPTB are already calling for booster shots. 

The vaccination program is expanding yet the case numbers are increasing. Is it because people are being less careful? Is it because the immunity acquired by those exposed is wearing off? Is it because the CDC has loosened social distancing guidelines? Or is it because vaccinated people are now asymptomatic spreaders?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Not surprised to see this happening.






Zerohedge


ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




www.zerohedge.com





With Covid test results now becoming the key to people doing the once basic things they _used _to be able to do without turning over personal health records (i.e. go to the store and buy a sandwich, or do their laundry) it should come as no surprise that dark web searches for Covid test results are skyrocketing.

In fact, Uswitch recently analyzed Google searches and found that the number of people who were searching for "buy covid test results" in January 2021 had doubled since August 2020.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Those wanting vaccine passports are overlooking one important point which was the whole topic of this thread. Vaccinated people can still get sick of and die from covid. Just because a person has been fully vaccinated does not mean they cannot get covid. And now with less than 6 months into the vaccination program, and less than 30% of the population having received the vaccination, TPTB are already calling for booster shots.
> 
> The vaccination program is expanding yet the case numbers are increasing. Is it because people are being less careful? Is it because the immunity acquired by those exposed is wearing off? Is it because the CDC has loosened social distancing guidelines? Or is it because vaccinated people are now asymptomatic spreaders?


I'm not sure anyone here is actually _wanting_ vaccine passports. I’m simply saying that business owners have the right to ask for proof of vaccination, negative tests, mask or not mask, etc. I’m not sure cruise lines will get to open up again in the near future without at least some of the above.
If a business owner wants to allow people into his business without masks, should he be allowed to do so?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

no really said:


> Not surprised to see this happening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Negative test cards for everyday life seem like a dumb way to go given that you’d have to be tested almost daily to make them worth anything. 
I had to be tested to go into the hospital for surgery twice and had to use a hospital affiliated lab that sent the results directly to the hospital/doctor.


----------



## John B. (Mar 31, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> Actually, most states have vaccination exemptions for enrolling your kids in schools.
> 
> This is nothing more than attempting to coerce someone who cannot or does not wish to get the COVID vaccine into getting it. Getting a vaccine does not make you a better person or more patriotic than someone who does not get one.
> 
> Here's a wild idea. How about you make the decision regarding a vaccine that you feel is best for you and I make the decision that is best for me? You don't try to force, coerce, browbeat or bully me into making the decision you want and I don't try to force, coerce, browbeat or bully you into making the decision I want.


Thank you very much for what you've said! So many have become nothing more than sheep during this COVID pandemic.

Your comment is right on the target - each person should be able to make the decision for himself, without any outside intervention or attempts at intimidation.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Negative test cards for everyday life seem like a dumb way to go given that you’d have to be tested almost daily to make them worth anything.
> I had to be tested to go into the hospital for surgery twice and had to use a hospital affiliated lab that sent the results directly to the hospital/doctor.


My daughter got her results on mychart. Print it out, change the date and you're good to go.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> I'm not sure anyone here is actually _wanting_ vaccine passports. I’m simply saying that business owners have the right to ask for proof of vaccination, negative tests, mask or not mask, etc. I’m not sure cruise lines will get to open up again in the near future without at least some of the above.
> If a business owner wants to allow people into his business without masks, should he be allowed to do so?


There are a lot of diseases worse than covid, yet even during a measles outbreak stores did not ask for proof of vaccination before allowing people inside. 

The stores here do not want to be the mask police, yet Ohio law requires them to enforce mask wearing. Little stores in rural areas that don't fear the health inspector do not require masks. 

I have said before that stores do have the right to require customers to wear masks. Proof of vaccination for covid would be going too far, IMO.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> My daughter got her results on mychart. Print it out, change the date and you're good to go.


Mine were also on mychart, so I suppose I could have done that but the hospital and doctor also got them so it wouldn’t have worked. The on,y way it really would is if the airline or cruise line got the results directly. I can’t see using negative test results for anything else other than being allowed into other countries, etc.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> Negative test cards for everyday life seem like a dumb way to go given that you’d have to be tested almost daily to make them worth anything.
> I had to be tested to go into the hospital for surgery twice and had to use a hospital affiliated lab that sent the results directly to the hospital/doctor.


Agree but some people aren't interested in long term just time enough to get to the next day. In a way I understand, I'm putting off getting the vax until I have to and I know I will at some point in time. I'm four years away from retiring from this job and don't want to lose my pension and that is the only reason I'll be getting the shot.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> There are a lot of diseases worse than covid, yet even during a measles outbreak stores did not ask for proof of vaccination before allowing people inside.
> 
> The stores here do not want to be the mask police, yet Ohio law requires them to enforce mask wearing. Little stores in rural areas that don't fear the health inspector do not require masks.
> 
> I have said before that stores do have the right to require customers to wear masks. Proof of vaccination for covid would be going too far, IMO.


Well yeah. Most people at this point have been vaccinated against measles and consequently there was no pandemic, (but there were a few schools shut down I believe). This is good argument FOR vaccination.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Some airlines are requiring a covid test before allowing people to fly.

The big problem with the covid test is the time lag involved. Even for a medical proceedure it can take 3 days to get your results. By the time you get them you may have an active infection after exposure a week or even a couple days before your test.

I was just reading about people who were stranded after testing positive before a return flight. That would be all kinds of fun. Out of money, out of vacation time, yet stuck in another country. One couple on their honeymoon could not even stay together since one had covid, the other didn't.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Some airlines are requiring a covid test before allowing people to fly.
> 
> The big problem with the covid test is the time lag involved. Even for a medical proceedure it can take 3 days to get your results. By the time you get them you may have an active infection after exposure a week or even a couple days before your test.
> 
> I was just reading about people who were stranded after testing positive before a return flight. That would be all kinds of fun. Out of money, out of vacation time, yet stuck in another country. One couple on their honeymoon could not even stay together since one had covid, the other didn't.


My nephew flew to England over the holidays, right when the first new variant had the UK on lockdown. I wondered whta he’d do if he tested positive and couldn’t get home but he lucked out.
It seemed pretty risky to me, from a getting home standpoint.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I wonder if stores, airlines and others might require the Vac Pass as a way of avoiding liability litigation


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I wonder if stores, airlines and others might require the Vac Pass as a way of avoiding liability litigation


I’ll bet you’re right on that. It might also have played into mask enforcement even without state mandate.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Well yeah. Most people at this point have been vaccinated against measles and consequently there was no pandemic, (but there were a few schools shut down I believe). This is good argument FOR vaccination.



Whooping cough immunity wears off. People still get and spread whooping cough. Yet no one ever asks to see an adult's whooping cough proof of vaccination, not even during an outbreak.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Whooping cough immunity wears off. People still get and spread whooping cough. Yet no one ever asks to see an adult's whooping cough proof of vaccination, not even during an outbreak.


I’ve not seen a pertussis epidemic or pandemic, again due to vaccine. Most people who keep up with their tetanus vaccines are also getting a booster for pertussis In the same shot. I had my last one right before my grandson was born six years ago.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

making people sign a waiver to say they don't hold a business liable would be more humane.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> making people sign a waiver to say they don't hold a business liable would be more humane.


Those waivers aren’t worth the paper they are written on And would never hold up in court. They are considered contracts of adhesion and it would easily be argued that it’s not informed consent and unfair to enforce them.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> I’ve not seen a pertussis epidemic or pandemic, again due to vaccine. Most people who keep up with their tetanus vaccines are also getting a booster for pertussis In the same shot. I had my last one right before my grandson was born six years ago.


As I said, "outbreak". Most people don't know the immunity wears off and many doctors never consider it as an active disease. Most people do not get tetanus boosters.









Why whooping cough, after half century of decline, is making a comeback in US


Whooping cough, a potentially life-threatening childhood illness that all but disappeared in the 1940s, has been making a comeback. Changes in the vaccine




www.dispatch.com


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> As I said, "outbreak". Most people don't know the immunity wears off and many doctors never consider it as an active disease. Most people do not get tetanus boosters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s also not particularly deadly to adults. It kills mostly very young kids. It seems to make sense that isolated “outbreaks” would be treated very differently from worldwide pandemics. Again, this is an argument that supports vaccination.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Regardless, current vaccination status is not requested. I can see it being required in certain occupations but not to shop in the grocery store. Especially since that vaccine _prevents_ the disease. The covid vaccines are not approved except as an emergency order and they are showing to not prevent a person from contracting covid. Vaccinated people can still get covid. The whooping cough vaccine prevents infection.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Regardless, current vaccination status is not requested. I can see it being required in certain occupations but not to shop in the grocery store. Especially since that vaccine _prevents_ the disease. The covid vaccines are not approved except as an emergency order and they are showing to not prevent a person from contracting covid. Vaccinated people can still get covid. The whooping cough vaccine prevents infection.


I also doubt it will be required for most businesses. It’s far more likely (and easier to enforce) that masks will continue to be required until the pandemic ends.
Though I can see it being required for cruise lines And entry to other countries. I wouldn’t mind seeing it required along with negative Covid tests for entry to the US, and that does include all immigrants.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> The covid vaccines are not approved except as an emergency order and they are showing to not prevent a person from contracting covid. Vaccinated people can still get covid.


Again, 102 cases in 1 million people vaccinated is an incredibly small number, 0.01% or 1 in 10,000. That demonstrates that covid vaccines are extremely effective at preventing the disease.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yet when the survival rate during the height of this pandemic was still 99%, even without masks, O2 tents, disinfectant spray booths and quarantine detentions centers, you seemed deeply concerned about the ones at risk.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tell you what, my wife has had two shots due to her employment. She got a fever Monday night and has been in bed miserable since then. I took her this morning to be tested. 
I'll let you know how that turns out and if "extremely effective" includes her.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Yet when the survival rate during the height of this pandemic was still 99%, even without masks, O2 tents, disinfectant spray booths and quarantine detentions centers, you seemed deeply concerned about the ones at risk.


Use their popular cliché, "One life lost is one too many"


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Tell you what, my wife has had two shots due to her employment. She got a fever Monday night and has been in bed miserable since then. I took her this morning to be tested.
> I'll let you know how that turns out and if "extremely effective" includes her.


I hope she’s ok. 
I got sick seven days out from my second shot. Headache, all over horrible body aches, nausea and 102.9 fever. The next day I found out why. I’d developed cellulitis in my surgery site. i was sweating it there for a bit though.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Yet when the survival rate during the height of this pandemic was still 99%, even without masks, O2 tents, disinfectant spray booths and quarantine detentions centers, you seemed deeply concerned about the ones at risk.


I suppose so, but only about 3000 people died on 9/11 compared to 500.000 from covid-19. If we look at this from purely a survival rate point of view, covid is much more of a threat than terrorism.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A real piece of work


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I suppose so, but only about 3000 people died on 9/11 compared to 500.000 from covid-19. If we look at this from purely a survival rate point of view, covid is much more of a threat than terrorism.


Well since you are trying to stitch a non related or applicable event to the topic, driving a car every day is considered much more dangerous than flying a plane, yet no one makes a movie about a car crash. No one has rules about what liquids, weapons, size of packages, etc that you can put into a car. No one snaps a glove before swinging open their passenger door. When car pooling, I haven't heard of at least one of the four passengers being a CP Marshal.
What's up with all that?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I suppose so, but only about 3000 people died on 9/11 compared to 500.000 from covid-19. If we look at this from purely a survival rate point of view, covid is much more of a threat than terrorism.


I would have a much better rate of survival with exposure to covid than being in one of the towers during the attack.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did the salon ban you from entry because of your vaccination status? Did all the salons ban you from entry because of your vaccination status? No? Then your little anecdote holds no water.
> 
> Those arguing in favor of a "show me your vaccination card" policy are arguing in favor of coercion to make someone inject a substance into their bodies against their will and/or against the medical advice of their doctors.


I’m arguing that businesses or other entities have the right to require vaccination. And yeah, you can certainly call it coercion. Kind of like the pro vaccine coercion that parents face when they enroll their kids in school. Or like when the government threatened to end all federal Highway for states that didn’t up their drinking age to 21 way back in the 80’s.
It’s cute that you think coercion is some kind of heinous thing never used by businesses or government,
So what would you do if your state or district requires all staff to be vaccinated?


----------



## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

Yes, businesses will discriminate against customers based upon whether or not they took an experimental shot, the safety trial of which won't end for another two years. Since it is emergency use authorization, we can all expect the "emergency" to continue for at least another two years, otherwise it would be illegal for people to be giving out these things. 
The good news is the door swings both ways.
This gym is offering free memberships to anybody who declines the experimental jab. They have this strange notion that getting enough vitamin D, good nutrition, and exercise are the best ways to stay healthy.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> I also doubt it will be required for most businesses. It’s far more likely (and easier to enforce) that masks will continue to be required until the pandemic ends.
> Though I can see it being required for cruise lines And entry to other countries. I wouldn’t mind seeing it required along with negative Covid tests for entry to the US, and that does include all immigrants.


I agree with you on that. But would add a negative test result should also be required because you can still get covid after being vaccinated.




Nevada said:


> Again, 102 cases in 1 million people vaccinated is an incredibly small number, 0.01% or 1 in 10,000. That demonstrates that covid vaccines are extremely effective at preventing the disease.


Again I ask the percent positivity rate of the general public 3 months into the pandemic. Comparing the percentage of breakthrough cases to the total number of covid cases is comparing apples to oranges. By July 1, 2020, covid had affected approximately .008% of the total United States population. The percentage of breakthrough cases was around 0.05% according to this article dated March 23, 2021.









SARS-CoV-2 Infection after Vaccination in Health Care Workers in California | NEJM


Correspondence from The New England Journal of Medicine — SARS-CoV-2 Infection after Vaccination in Health Care Workers in California



www.nejm.org





The daily cumulative numbers per 100,000 of population can be found here









Cumulative Cases - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center


How is the outbreak growing? Cumulative confirmed cases and deaths for the twenty most affected countries over time.




coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

keenataz said:


> It is an accommodation. That is what disability acts require. If a disabled person cannot access something, an accommodation has to be offered.


The disability act does not directly cost the disabled person money to access something.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

fireweed farm said:


> I think you are being a bit hysterical. But to your question, as others already pointed out you will get to choose curbside pickup, or delivery. You get choices, and that is apparently your choice. The store may not want random sick guy coughing on staff and products.
> I'm sure there will be renegade stores you can go where health codes are not enforced- same sort of idea as when smoking was banned indoors a few restaurants let smoking slide for awhile... maybe you can smoke and shop
> I have a business where the last thing I want is some selfish sicko infecting me or one of my staff- if my staff get sick I don't make any money. Health codes benefit my business....


If you staff has taken the covid vaccine then what are you scared of? They will not get sick. Or why not require a bandana be worn by the non vaccinated ? It’s currently good enough, so why not in the feature. No need to keep people out. Seems some pretty bad logic going on here.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Redlands Okie said:


> If you staff has taken the covid vaccine then what are you scared of? They will not get sick. Or why not require a bandana be worn by the non vaccinated ? It’s currently good enough, so why not in the feature. No need to keep people out. Seems some pretty bad logic going on here.


-Vaccine is not 100% effective 
-For medical reasons some can’t have the vaccine
-Will all the unvaccinated wear a bandana? Of course not so that won’t be the solution either.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> The disability act does not directly cost the disabled person money to access something.


Around here curbside pickup is free. And many stores have reserved times for disabled people to pickup groceries. This predates the pandemic.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

fireweed farm said:


> -Vaccine is not 100% effective
> -For medical reasons some can’t have the vaccine
> -Will all the unvaccinated wear a bandana? Of course not so that won’t be the solution either.


-Not 100%, but it's effective enough to end the pandemic if enough people take it.
-If you have medical advice from your doctor that says you shouldn't take the vaccine, then I suggest you take that advice.
-Unvaccinated people will not be outcasts. I expect herd immunity by the end of summer because enough people are taking the vaccine. Business as usual will resume soon thereafter.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Because I have cancer I had to sit through the information lecture about the vaccine given by oncologists and pharmacists and infectious disease doctors and it was very interesting.

The vaccine (any of them) does not give you immediate protection or coverage.

It takes 14 days to be even partially active and a full 21 days to get the sort of coverage that the manufacturers are stating is provided with their vaccine (just 70 to 95% in optimum conditions and for optimum patients). And it is not complete until the second vaccination. 

So you must follow all the Public Health guidelines (masks, physical distancing, podding etc) for the full time after you get your first vaccine until you get the second vaccine and then for at least 28 days after your second vaccination.

People are making a big deal about not having instant coverage with this but the reality is that this applies to all vaccinations and always has. Your body has to build up to protect itself.

If you happen to be infected with Covid-19 before you get your first vaccination it is highly probable that you will get sick with Covid-19. They are not testing before giving the vaccine, only asking the illumination questions.

Everyone should expect and be happy to have worse side effects with the second vaccination and nearly everyone does. This proves that the vaccine is working.

If you are a person with health risks – obesity, diabetes, cancer and any other disease or condition the vaccine may not work well for you. As a cancer patient undergoing chemo I can expect to get only about 40% effectiveness from my vaccine. Certain drugs such as dexamethasone will also reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine (any vaccine actually).

I have had my first vaccination (Moderna) and no side effects other than a slightly sore arm. Second vaccination in 28 days. Where I live there is no shortage of vaccines and appointment times - just some people still afraid to take the shot. In the remote areas and First Nations villages where they were serviced by mobile vaccination units the high percentage of those now with both vaccinations has led to no new cases and a semblance of normality.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

It has been reported that the Astra Zeneca vaccine has a link to blood clots. The preliminary investigation has determined that there is no connection and no greater incidence of blood clots than in normal situations or with the other vaccines. However it is now being associated with blood clots in women who are on hormone birth control. Not a surprising connection. Lots more to learn about this virus.
The British variant of Covid-19 has already proven to be more contagious and especially easy to infect the young between the ages of 5 to 19. Over 62% of new cases are young people and younger adults (20s, 30s and 40s). This virus adjusts very quickly.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

fireweed farm said:


> -Vaccine is not 100% effective
> -For medical reasons some can’t have the vaccine
> -Will all the unvaccinated wear a bandana? Of course not so that won’t be the solution either.


Well let the vaccinated and worried wear a bandana. It’s been good enough for the last year. Why quit now.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Worries about the vaccine, or that more shots will be needed for breakthrough cases ? No need........ perhaps. 


“Pfizer asked for liability protection not only against civil claims from citizens who suffer serious adverse events after being vaccinated, but also for cases brought due to Pfizer’s own negligence, fraud or malice.”









Pfizer accused of ‘bullying’ Latin American countries during vaccine negotiations


Latin America has accused Pfizer of ‘bullying’ Covid-19 vaccine negotiations, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.




www.pharmaceutical-technology.com







More on the subject. Keep in mind the USA seems to have guaranteed them to law suits or liability. 









‘Held to ransom’: Pfizer demands governments gamble with state assets to secure vaccine deal


The Bureau has learned that the pharmaceutical giant also insists on indemnity against its own negligence in hardball negotiations with Latin American countries




www.thebureauinvestigates.com













Pfizer Accused of Holding Some Countries to “Ransom” Over COVID-19 Negotiations | BioSpace


Pfizer has been accused of bullying governments in Latin America over coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccine negotiations, a recent investigative article revealed.




www.biospace.com


----------



## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> As the number of vaccinated people increases, so do the numbers of people who test positive for covid after being fully vaccinated. The experts are quick to comment that no vaccine is 100% effective and there are only a very small number of people who have "breakthrough" covid. You have to do some research and know the correct search terms to use but the info is being released.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Nevada said:


> Actually, 102 cases out of 1 million people vaccinated is a very small number. The public should be encouraged by this news.
> [/QUOTE[QUOTE="Nevada, post: 8751226, member: 12009 Actually, 102 cases out of 1 million people vaccinated is a very small number. The public should be encouraged by this news.


Maybe a better way to assess the result would be to look at the numbers recently released by the Michigan Health and Human services. They found that from Jan. to March 2021, there were 246 cases of Covid among Michigan residents that were fully vaccinated. What I found disturbing was that it went on to say they had hospitalization records on 117 of those patients. That is nearly a 50% rate of hospitalization which belies the claim that if you get vaccinated and still get Covid, it will be a mild case. Also there were also 3 that died although fully vaccinated

Sadly, some epidemiologists believe that these vaccines will be useless within a month because the millions of mass vaccinations have caused an accelerated rate of mutations among the virus. I'm afraid the net result will be more deaths as many high risk individuals will go out and about after being fully vaccinated because they believe they are protected.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have decided not to be afraid. All the projections are based on “models.” Have you ever seen the maps of projected hurricane tracks? Spaghetti.

I will either not get it, or get it and recover, or get it and die. So what?

Being afraid has no effect on those possibilities.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

emdeengee said:


> It has been reported that the Astra Zeneca vaccine has a link to blood clots. The preliminary investigation has determined that there is no connection and no greater incidence of blood clots than in normal situations or with the other vaccines. However it is now being associated with blood clots in women who are on hormone birth control. Not a surprising connection. Lots more to learn about this virus.
> The British variant of Covid-19 has already proven to be more contagious and especially easy to infect the young between the ages of 5 to 19. Over 62% of new cases are young people and younger adults (20s, 30s and 40s). This virus adjusts very quickly.



Viruses do not 'adjust' to anything. It's not like the virus knows there is a vaccine and sets out to find a way around it. They simply undergo random mutations. This virus has gone through many, possibly hundreds of mutations, and most of them don't change the virus in any way that matters. More new cases are in younger people because most of the older people have been vaccinated. If I have 15 chickens and 5 turkeys, I have 20 fowl and 75% of them are chickens and only 25% are turkeys. If I sell 10 chickens my percentage of turkeys goes from 25% to 50%.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Back when it all started the experts had identified several different strains. So are these new strains or strains that were identified a year ago?









Coronavirus mutates into 40 strains. How this changes the pandemic outlook: Experts


Recent scientific tests are starting to reveal more about the coronavirus, known technically as COVID-19, including one recent discovery: that the virus




english.alarabiya.net


----------

