# What all do you think is going to happen? How fast?



## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

Not to sound like an idiot but I'm 28yrs. old and I KNOW I am NOT an expert on things like the economy. So I'd like to see what you all think might be happening or going to happen and why/when/how ect. I kow our $ may end up worth nothing and that we can't rely on others to provide our food/water/shelter ect. I know that the goob. will probably be trying to control people (more than now even) through people's needs ect. I know that there are camps similar to those the jewish were held in... Anyway I don't mean to ramble but I really want to know more of what you all think.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

Seriously? We're a year, maybe more into a recession that will run several more years. Probably will start to get better by the middle of 2010. It's going to be hard for the folks for awhile that have lived their whole lives with pretty much being able to have whatever you want whenever you want it. That does not mean the sky is not falling, it simply means people have to learn how to pull in their horns and weather through it.

As for the camps, etc. Get Real. Why would the government want to do that. We are the government and this isn't 1930's Germany. 

Jennifer


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

I think the economy is going to continue downhill. I believe the "camps" will be used, mainly, as way stations to move people from rural areas to more populated areas. Apparently the gov is now talking about using social security cards instead of cash (think EBT cards). Instead of SS receipients having direct deposit into their banks, the money would "placed" on their SS cards, which would then be used like a credit/ATM card.

IMO, our country is getting worse every day and if you read some overseas news sites you will discover that they are really concerned about our economy also. Enjoy the ride.


.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

Jennifer L. said:


> Seriously? We're a year, maybe more into a recession that will run several more years. Probably will start to get better by the middle of 2010. It's going to be hard for the folks for awhile that have lived their whole lives with pretty much being able to have whatever you want whenever you want it. That does not mean the sky is not falling, it simply means people have to learn how to pull in their horns and weather through it.
> 
> As for the camps, etc. Get Real. Why would the government want to do that. We are the government and this isn't 1930's Germany.
> 
> Jennifer


And I am sure that at the time, people said "why would the government want to do that"...right?

Kayleigh


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

Sorry but I don't trust that the camps are innocent and that the goob. has only good intentions. What do you think the camps are for Jennifer? Do you believe what they have said they are for? I'm serious. 

And I agree as Kayleigh said people didn't expect it last time...


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

er...WHAT camps? Got any evidence of one that isn't from a "god help us we're losing control" site? like....can you point to where one is and what it's being used for? A news article from a reputable news organization would help.

The germans DID know what was going on. More and more evidence supports that. They simply didn't know how to stop it without being part of the er, solution. There's also evidence than many people followed the party line and believed that genocide was a good thing. and, of course, many just buried their heads in the sand.

Try to remember that in the 1940s they did NOT have internet. did NOT have Television. News was reported on the radio. In the newspapers. WWII is the first war that had reporters reporting back from the front lines with photos in a timely manner. Mostly the images were on newsreels shown at the local movie theater.

Vietnam is the first time the general public saw, via taped and sometimes live feed on the television, what war was really like. Since the use of television and live feeds, we live in a different world than Nazi Germany. 

If you don't like what's going on with the government, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Run for office. Write a column for a paper. Go out and get evidence. Join a lobbying group.


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

WA I have a fussy toddler on my lap but google FEMA camps to see about the camps.

I didn't mean the germans didn't know what they were doing so much as I meant that the jewish didn't know where they were going/what was happening at first. 

I voted, didn't help much but I tried. I have 6 kids and 1 due in 3 weeks and a husband and an aged, handicapped mother. I don't have the time to go work in the government. I do what I can.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

What is going to happen? Well, this might be rather disjointed, but put it together as you will:

- there isn't enough oil to meet the growing demand, especially with huge populations like India and China requiring more and more all the time. And we're not just talking fuel for cars -- the oil industry has other by-products, like plastics, and fertilizers. Oil prices might be low right now, but within the next decade (IMHO) we're going to see the mythical $500 a barrel, and then you're going to start to see just how many things this affects. Prices are going to go through the roof.

- Many places that supply the world's crops, especially in NA, have water issues coming. No water = less crops = food shortage. Along with that, world population is expected to hit 9 billion somewhere in the next decade. Countries that use to be net producers of grain worldwide, like China, are now having to import grain to meet their own populations needs. You do the math.

- As governments continue to finance their debts through foreign investment, they're going to run into increasing problems with the countries that traditionally have invested in the foreign debt having to finance their OWN national debts. You're going to see devaluation of the dollar on a crazy scale -- and then you have hyperinflation. Suddenly, people who had money in the bank to see themselves through retirement are going to have to pay $300 for a loaf of bread -- and those savings are NOT going to last. Hungry people do desperate things.

The current system of consumption is NOT sustainable. The economy is merely beginning to reflect that, but (again, IMHO) you haven't seen anything yet.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

This really is ridiculous.

Where is proof of any "camps"? I've never seen any proof or evidence of any camps. Half the "evidence" on the net are pictures of old WWII training sites that are still used for National Guard/Reserve training. They are kept active to allow for a surge capability should we need to expand our military rapidly IE WWIII. 

The logistics involved in creating and maintaining a "camp" are huge, there would be no way to keep it a secret. With google earth alone it would be impossible to hide such a thing. The locals would surely notice the trucks going in night and day to build it, not to mention all the construction workers involved in building the place. 

In this day and age when the president can't even manage to keep secret an affair with an intern that maybe involves a small handful of folks, how can anyone believe they can hide a "camp"? 

Most of the "evidence" of camps is a case of the government trying to be prepared in case of a major catastrophe along the lines of Katrina. This is one area where the USG is just plain screwed:

Do nothing, and they're incompetent and didn't have a plan to relocate and provide for displaced citizens. 

Do something like line up some contracts and some prior planning, and every tin foil hat wearing knucklehead is convinced they're building camps and their name is on the "list" do to their "patriotic" posts on some forum. 

Too many people spend their lives running from things that aren't really after them as it is without adding the fear of "camps".

Chuck


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

I think I'd better start a FEMA camps thread lol. I didn't know so many would be interested in that part of my post.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

well, you're using as a "the government is out to control us and get us". so of course those of us who demand truth and not just more gossip will jump on it.


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

WA How do you determine if its truth or not? After watching some videos ect on it I think it could be truth. I said I know there are camps, I don't know for sure if that is what they will use them for but I don't see it as being silly to look into either. I don't know what you consider a reputable news organization either?


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## tomstractormag (Feb 23, 2007)

Might want to google > rex 84 <
Tom


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

Thank you Tom! I had looked under that before but had forgotten what it was called!

I started a new thread for the camps discussion too its here on S&EP also


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Jennifer L. said:


> We are the government and this isn't 1930's Germany.
> 
> Jennifer


If we're the government, we sure didn't have much say on the bailouts .


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Here are some links on info to make up your own mind. Alex Jones can be a little over the top..but he cracks me up.

http://www.infowars.com/officer-jack-boot-rants-about-fema-camps/

This a link that has an Associated Press article

http://www.infowars.com/fema-trains-to-take-you-to-the-camps/


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

go watch Red Dawn. I'm going to be a wolverine.


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Here are some links on info to make up your own mind. Alex Jones can be a little over the top..but he cracks me up.
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/officer-jack-boot-rants-about-fema-camps/
> 
> ...


I thought that the Japanese in US were put in concentration camps during WWII. Am I mistaken?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

lettermom,
I probably am coming at this from a different angle than the others. I'm a Christian that has done quite a bit of studying on end times. I believe things are going to get worse and worse till the economy completely collapses.  It's the easiest way to control people. We will go to a one world currency, eventually leading up to the mark of the beast, where people will not be able to buy or sell without it. I believe that even if those camps are not being set up right now (but I happen to believe they are) that they will soon and it will be a place to put people who won't bow to the system. I think it's very important for all of us to learn how to be as self-reliant as possible, but more so for Christians. We've already seen the tide changing against us, and according to the Bible it's only going to get worse. So, that's my 2 cents worth. I'm sure many will disagree, but since you are asking for our opinions, that's mine. They are welcome to disagree, but I'll go by what the Bible says over what mankind says any day.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

lettermom said:


> Sorry but I don't trust that the camps are innocent and that the goob. has only good intentions. What do you think the camps are for Jennifer? Do you believe what they have said they are for? I'm serious.
> 
> And I agree as Kayleigh said people didn't expect it last time...


You asked what people thought and I gave you my opinion. I'm not big on tinfoil hats and I don't think the government is out to get me. If people want to whip themselves into a hysterical frenzy over something the Bush Administration did, well, that Administration is gone now.

Jennifer


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

one thing I do know for sure is not everyone is going to "recover" from this recession. My own grandparents did not after the great depression. I think its best to plan for the worst, if it happens, you are ready, and if not, well, then you have alot of usable stuff and skills.
jmo


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## Lancer (Nov 23, 2008)

Went to see my folks today they both told me to hang on to cash! Dad is 77 and grandpa lost the farm in 33 to the bank not enough money! The sale raised $744 and broke his spirit till his death in 59' when this all happened my grandpa was in his mid 40's As for today my adivice is the same save as much as you can and pay your debts! Good Luck!!!!! God Bless You and your's.


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> lettermom,
> I probably am coming at this from a different angle than the others. I'm a Christian that has done quite a bit of studying on end times. I believe things are going to get worse and worse till the economy completely collapses. It's the easiest way to control people. We will go to a one world currency, eventually leading up to the mark of the beast, where people will not be able to buy or sell without it. I believe that even if those camps are not being set up right now (but I happen to believe they are) that they will soon and it will be a place to put people who won't bow to the system. I think it's very important for all of us to learn how to be as self-reliant as possible, but more so for Christians. We've already seen the tide changing against us, and according to the Bible it's only going to get worse. So, that's my 2 cents worth. I'm sure many will disagree, but since you are asking for our opinions, that's mine. They are welcome to disagree, but I'll go by what the Bible says over what mankind says any day.


So, how fast? The tide does seem to be turning but how long to prepare?


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

The Tin Mom said:


> I thought that the Japanese in US were put in concentration camps during WWII. Am I mistaken?



Well they were in Camps against their will, but I wouldn't call them Concentration camps.

Sonshine...I tend to agree on your slant.

Not much time until 2012..


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

The Tin Mom said:


> I thought that the Japanese in US were put in concentration camps during WWII. Am I mistaken?


I was right! 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

I thought I had heard this before.... Doubt it was in my history class.....


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Well they were in Camps against their will, but I wouldn't call them Concentration camps.
> 
> Sonshine...I tend to agree on your slant.
> 
> Not much time until 2012..


Didn't see your post until I posted the link.....

Why 2012?


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## giddy (Nov 14, 2006)

www.govtrack.us./congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-645 HR 645 basically a bill to fund and staff FEMA emergency camps. If this link doesn't work, google HR 645. It was dated January 22, 2009


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

This is it: it is happening NOW!

There are new people in charge: a lot of the faces in capitol hill are new ones! So things might get better, as perhaps these folks will have some common sense. But, even if they do everything PERFECTLY, you do not turn a mac truck around on a dime, and the economy will NOT turn around immediately.

There will be more bankruptcies and lay offs. The recession will continue either for several more months or for a few years: it depends on what the folks on Capitol hill can pull off.

Basically, my advice to you is to CONTINUE! You are thoughtfull and you are prudent, and that is what you need.

If it DOES go into a full depression, you will STILL need to be thoughtfull and prudent.

About the prison camps? This government does not want to imprison and support the citizens. They would rather that you worked and paid taxes to them. The Nazi's needed an enemy so they could stay in power and so they made prison camps. Our government stays in power by wheeling and dealing, so no prison camps. They do not need your freedom they need your CASH!

To get us over the recession I believe they will have had to print money. And, printing money leads to inflation, which I predict to occur after the recession. 

I grew up under double-digit inflation: young workers and the middle aged coped very well. Costs went up but cost-of-living raises ALMOST kept pace. It was the older folks on fixed incomes who were hurt by it: Their income did NOT go up but the cost of necessities doubled!

Lettermom, you are fine. The fact that you come here tells me that you have given this matter some thought, and that you are likely behaving prudently. 

Yes, unemployement might bite you. When we were in Iowa we had to move due to joblessness and recession. It happens, and we did NOT! like it one bit! We put our applications out, drove down to interviews, and moved when we were hired. It took us a year to get straightened out. It took longer to get the credit cards paid off. But we were young and healthy, we worked hard and we coped. 

You will cope also. The next year will be worrysome to us all, but we are CAPABLE people and we kick tail!


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## giddy (Nov 14, 2006)

On the site I mentioned above about HR 645, #4 says "and to meet other appropriate needs as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security". If I remember correctly, if we had a national emergency and martial law was declared, FEMA is in charge. I think that was an executive order but I could be wrong. So, we've all heard about these camps from other sites, but this is from a government site.


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## mscoffee (Jan 9, 2009)

giddy said:


> www.govtrack.us./congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-645 HR 645 basically a bill to fund and staff FEMA emergency camps. If this link doesn't work, google HR 645. It was dated January 22, 2009



111th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 645

*To direct the Secretary of Homeland Security to establish national emergency centers on military installations.*

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

January 22, 2009



> SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
> 
> This Act may be cited as the âNational Emergency Centers Establishment Actâ.
> 
> ...


*********************************************************

Being that it is to be run by homeland security makes me question its purpose.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> About the prison camps? This government does not want to imprison and support the citizens. They would rather that you worked and paid taxes to them.


I don't think so (taxes that is). What they want is a slave class. Put people into camps and make them work for food, clothing, shelter, etc... "Useless eaters" (net consumers) can be "relocated" to another facility to die. "Net producers" will be rewarded with games, TV, etc...



> About the prison camps? This government does not want to imprison and support the citizens. They would rather that you worked and paid taxes to them.


I saw Ron Paul talking about this (HR 645?) and how it gives the gov the power to declare martial law and round people up.


.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Fema camps ARE possible, but they would not be for extermination. They would be a place to put displaced persons. 

So, you would end up with FEMA making the important decisions in your life.

So lets all try to stay out of them, 'K?


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

I am in basic agreement with Sonshine's post, although I wouldn't put any date on anything. It sounds like some of you still think that this is 'just another recession,' and have no clue as to what is really going on. At this point it seems to me that it could still go either into depression (deflation) or into hyperinflation (and even if we go into depression first, we'll almost certainly have hyperinflation after wards). The other possibility is a total financial collapse, which would be a disaster for all concerned (everyone on the face of the earth, pretty much). 

There IS a bill in Congress to make large camps for emergency purposes on the grounds of military bases. What they plan to use those for I don't know, and at this point don't want to start guessing, either. The stated purpose is for incidents such as Katrina; but what is built for one purpose can always be converted to another. 

As for comparing Obama to the early phases of Hitler's rule over Germany, there are a LOT of disconcerting parallels. There are also parallels between Obama and communists such as Stalin and Lenin, and other Communist leaders -- he just hasn't gotten that nasty yet. The potential is there, though, because the doctrine is there. He is a Marxist, with radical Marxist mentors. We have yet to see any country taken over by these people with GOOD results, so I'm looking forward with trepidation. (If it's an comfort, though, I don't think there was any way for those of us who still believe in the Republic America was formed to be to prevent this. It was set up, and I really don't think that our votes counted for much of anything. They may not even have been counted at all -- Obama is the King of vote fraud. And even if McCain or some other 'Republican' had been elected, nearly all the upper level people in this country are sold-out to this one-world stuff, including both Bush presidents.)

The next few years are going to be 'perilous times' for sure. Spiritual preparations are far more important right now than any physical preps, which can be taken away from you by one means or another. That doesn't mean that you should neglect your physical preparations, but put a premium on your time in God's Word, and on obeying Him. Your relationship with Him is the one thing that NOBODY can take away from you, and if you lose your life here, you will have eternal life with Him to look forward to.

Kathleen


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

uyk7 said:


> I don't think so (taxes that is). What they want is a slave class. Put people into camps and make them work for food, clothing, shelter, etc... "Useless eaters" (net consumers) can be "relocated" to another facility to die. "Net producers" will be rewarded with games, TV, etc...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They already have the slave class - wage slaves in perpetual debt.

My take is a little backward from everyone else here but, I was more worried about this stuff with the Bush admin. They seemed much more tyrannical to me than the Obama admin.

I think the focus on job creation and infrastructure repair would give some clues as to where the country is supposed to be heading under his admin. Somebody has to pay for all of it, right? That would be us working folks. You can't prop up free markets if you're in concentration camps.

Eat, drink, be merry, but don't forget to keep some back for later on, just in case the economy completely collapses.

There will be a lot of people displaced, especially if their predictions (unemployment office officials) of 11,000,000 layoffs does happen this year as expected.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

pickapeppa said:


> My take is a little backward from everyone else here but, I was more worried about this stuff with the Bush admin. They seemed much more tyrannical to me than the Obama admin.
> 
> I think the focus on job creation and infrastructure repair would give some clues as to where the country is supposed to be heading under his admin. Somebody has to pay for all of it, right? That would be us working folks. You can't prop up free markets if you're in concentration camps.
> 
> ...


I agree!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

pickapeppa said:


> They already have the slave class - wage slaves in perpetual debt.
> 
> My take is a little backward from everyone else here but, I was more worried about this stuff with the Bush admin. They seemed much more tyrannical to me than the Obama admin.
> 
> ...


but in the end Bush DIDN'T round people up, did he? the current one remains to be seen, and his fans have been bred to prefer being rounded up. we'll see.

my grandpa hoboed west to work on Grand COulee dam during GD1. He would probably have some comments about the camps around that project(but he's gone)


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## johncronejr (Nov 4, 2007)

The sites which go on about the FEMA camps are akin to street corner preachers harking that the world is ending. As someone mentioned above, the government wouldn't want to lock us away, how in the world would they get taxes then? It would appear that the camps would have been extremely beneficial during the Katrina crisis. 

I believe the economy is cyclical and will turn around. Much of the problem can be attributed to many being afraid to spend money. A major component of the Great Depression was the fact that people horded their money and didn't circulate it, which only served to exacerbate the problem.

At the very worst, if the new administration seeks to go socialist, we will end up as a "european" type society. While not what we are used to, it certainly isn't a doom and gloom scenario.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> but in the end Bush DIDN'T round people up, did he? the current one remains to be seen, and his fans have been bred to prefer being rounded up. we'll see.
> 
> my grandpa hoboed west to work on Grand COulee dam during GD1. He would probably have some comments about the camps around that project(but he's gone)


I don't think anyone prefers to be rounded up. And on the breeding thing, well, I was under the impression most people had families as a personal choice, not a political one. That's a lot of work to commit to, for such a shallow purpose.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Obama compared to Hitler? Stalin? Sheesh, if there was any President that could come anywhere close to that it would be Bush. I didn't here too many conservatives yelp when he trashed habeas corpus and snuck in some legislation giving him the power to suspend congress when a national emergency was declared. There were many liberals that were convinced that Bush was going to become an all powerful dictator and the US would be ruled under an iron fisted Christian based Theocracy. It didn't come to pass, and neither will an Obama run Communist style government. Some people get hyped up over a whole lot of nothing.

Things to be worried about:
1. Decreasing Oil production
2. Water shortages 
3. Illegal Immigration (ever wonder why there is so much ethnic tension in Eastern Europe?)
4. An inflationary echo recession
5. This recession turning into a Great Depression

I wouldn't worry about Obama, one world government, FEMA camps. Can anyone honestly see Russia, Syria, and China giving up their sovereignty and joining the US in some sort of one world conspiracy. People across the world would have to start getting along with each other a lot better for a one world government to work.

I do believe this current recession is different than past ones, and this goes way beyond just people afraid to spend money. There have been too many things out of wack for too long. I think part of the economic recovery process will be for people not to have such high expectations and be willing to live with a lower standard of living.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> lettermom,
> I probably am coming at this from a different angle than the others. I'm a Christian that has done quite a bit of studying on end times. I believe things are going to get worse and worse till the economy completely collapses. It's the easiest way to control people. We will go to a one world currency, eventually leading up to the mark of the beast, where people will not be able to buy or sell without it. I believe that even if those camps are not being set up right now (but I happen to believe they are) that they will soon and it will be a place to put people who won't bow to the system. I think it's very important for all of us to learn how to be as self-reliant as possible, but more so for Christians. We've already seen the tide changing against us, and according to the Bible it's only going to get worse. So, that's my 2 cents worth. I'm sure many will disagree, but since you are asking for our opinions, that's mine. They are welcome to disagree, but I'll go by what the Bible says over what mankind says any day.



Sonshine, I was raised with this belief and I believe it still.. but I've been thinking recently what the role of faith is when thinking about the future. Thinking of the Israelites and God sending them manna - only enough for the day.. trusting in God's provision and care.. What do you think?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ladies and Gents - 
If this turns into Bush/Obama bashing it will be shut, or deleted, or moved to politics = depending on how bad I think it is and how much I want to inflict on another mod.

Angie


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> They already have the slave class - wage slaves in perpetual debt.


Once in a camp, you won't have the option of working or not. Right now you do. Don't like your job now? Quit and get another. In a camp you either do what you are told or you go hungry (at a minimum).


.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Marie04 said:


> Sonshine, I was raised with this belief and I believe it still.. but I've been thinking recently what the role of faith is when thinking about the future. Thinking of the Israelites and God sending them manna - only enough for the day.. trusting in God's provision and care.. What do you think?


My belief is that we put our faith in God. There is no way to prepare for everything that can possibly happen, but we do know that God has throughout time stretched provisions that people have made. God gave us a brain and has shown us throughout the Bible where he had others prepare for bad times. Look at Joseph, who was shown about the 7 years of plenty followed by the 7 years of famine. Noah was warned and told to make provisions before the flood. There's many examples like this in the Bible, but every one of them shows that those God preserved were the ones who prepared. The Bible basically tells us that if a man won't work, he doesn't eat. He gives us the example of the ant who stays busy preparing. So, I do believe we should learn as much as we can about being prepared and leave the rest in God's hands.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

The Tin Mom said:


> So, how fast? The tide does seem to be turning but how long to prepare?


I'm not an economic expert, but it's pretty obvious to me that things are happening pretty quick.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> I am in basic agreement with Sonshine's post, although I wouldn't put any date on anything. It sounds like some of you still think that this is 'just another recession,' and have no clue as to what is really going on. At this point it seems to me that it could still go either into depression (deflation) or into hyperinflation (and even if we go into depression first, we'll almost certainly have hyperinflation after wards). The other possibility is a total financial collapse, which would be a disaster for all concerned (everyone on the face of the earth, pretty much).
> 
> There IS a bill in Congress to make large camps for emergency purposes on the grounds of military bases. What they plan to use those for I don't know, and at this point don't want to start guessing, either. The stated purpose is for incidents such as Katrina; but what is built for one purpose can always be converted to another.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. You worded it much better than I did.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Sonshine, I was raised with this belief and I believe it still.. but I've been thinking recently what the role of faith is when thinking about the future. Thinking of the Israelites and God sending them manna - only enough for the day.. trusting in God's provision and care.. What do you think?


I also believe Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow. We have enough just taking care of today.


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## countrymouse (Nov 9, 2004)

What is happening... OK, I'll bite.

Well, for years the world economy has been running mostly on debt. In the US when the rate of growth slowed "too much" after 9/11 we slashed interest rates and loosened (basically eliminated) lending standards in order to avoid a recession. It ended up working, but created an enormous housing bubble and redlined most consumers' finances in the process. Millions of homebuyers were obligated to pay on loans they had no chance in H-E-doublehockeysticks of ever paying back. This set up a domino effect of high-dollar defaults, which put the overextended banks into a situation where they are broke and losing so much money to defaults that even with the gov't giving them multiple billions they can't cover their losses--without cash reserves they won't extend credit to businesses or consumers and as a result we get layoffs and more defaults. 

Now that the tide is going out we're seeing who actually has cash and it ain't pretty--more or less down to the gov't selling bonds to the Fed at this point. All the talk of saving banks is garbage, the banks can't be saved; TARP is just to keep the show going, the banks are already gone! Their options are: nationalization or TIMBER! 

Anyone that is optimistic about the near future is nuts. This is not cyclical, this is big. Pay your bills and don't take on any new debt, no matter how good of a deal it looks like. Nothing is cheap--not houses, not cars, not flat screen TVs; now is NOT the time to buy. Make no mistake, depression is on the way.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

countrymouse said:


> Now that the tide is going out we're seeing who actually has cash and it ain't pretty--more or less down to the gov't selling bonds to the Fed at this point. All the talk of saving banks is garbage, the banks can't be saved; TARP is just to keep the show going, the banks are already gone! Their options are: nationalization or TIMBER!
> 
> Anyone that is optimistic about the near future is nuts. This is not cyclical, this is big. Pay your bills and don't take on any new debt, no matter how good of a deal it looks like. Nothing is cheap--not houses, not cars, not flat screen TVs; now is NOT the time to buy. Make no mistake, depression is on the way.


Pretty much my thoughts as well. Obama vs Bush and FEMA camps aside, I think one thing most of us can agree on here is that this recession ain't no run of the mill one. Things are going to change, just not sure how yet.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> er...WHAT camps? Got any evidence of one that isn't from a "god help us we're losing control" site? like....can you point to where one is and what it's being used for? A news article from a reputable news organization would help.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you don't like what's going on with the government, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Run for office. Write a column for a paper. Go out and get evidence. Join a lobbying group.


If you're only willing to accept news articles from "reputable news organizations" like corporate media outlets then you're no better off than those German citizens watching government-sponsored newsreels. 

As for doing something about it, I do not believe at this point you can change the direction and purpose of the government machine by jamming yourself into the gears. There's quite a few folks doing that already and they're either being forced along in a direction they didn't intend or having their life mangled by the machine.

There's another option I think may be viable. Turtle up, withdraw as much as possible from the world, and start learning the skills which will take you through the next 17 years of depression. Hurry though. You don't have much time to learn how to become self-reliant.

Before World War II they called World War I "the Great War". Someday our grandchildren will be calling this World Depression II.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I agree that this time is much different.. we cannot look back and compare this crisis for two main reasons... the financial issues are much greater in amounts and complexity and we are a debtor nation rather than a creditor nation as we were in the GD 1...

for instance.. talking about this bad bank thing ( similar to the RTC of the 80's S&L crisis).. if the govt does this they cannot even begin to pay the banks the value of these assets that the banks have on the books.. too much for the govt to handle and if we priont that much the dollar collaspes.. but if they buy the assets for less.. the banks will be declared insolvent.. so the fix is not there. There is too much.. some estimate is over 4 trillion dollars ( 4x our already unmanageable debt interms of finding foreign countries willing to service the debt)... so comparing this problem to the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 80's is absurd as it cannot be fixed the same way. and this is only one section of the problem. The housing, the consumer lack of spending when our economy is 70% based on spending.. down huge for Dec and revised Nov.numbers worse than first reported. Unemployment will be double digit by late spring...Everywhere you look it is messy.. the bond market dislocation on the horizion, the equities falling, the main street real crisis...

But worse than all to me is this protectionism that has been written in this stimulus package...anyone who knows anything about the great depression knows that was the tipping point from recession to depression... but then we were a creditor nation .. we are now a debtor nation and we rely on others to finance the debt..others whose economies are taking huge hits from our lack of spending in this country...they will not be able to continue.. and yet we are making more debt everyday throwing around 1 trillion for the stimulus package.. another 2-5 trillion for the bad bank scenario...I forsee that we will as a nation default..

and so much more.. that's the problem.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Many of you are believing that these FEMA camps are little more than in-case-of-emergency camps set up to prevent another Katrina-esque disaster. 

Let me use history to explain to you just _how wrong you are._

In 1937 the government opened up the first labor camp which was called "Arvin Migratory Labor Camp." These were run by the federal government under a branch called the "Farm Security Administration". They were put forward as a charitable solution, but the real goal was to have access to ready pools of skilled farm labor without exposing local communities to shanty towns and petty thievery. Initially they rounded up Mexican and Mexican-American laborers, but eventually the camps included more Anglo-American farmers such as those displaced by the Dust Bowl in Oklahoma. Anyone who was displaced from their home and land ended up in one of these labor camps, and they existed right up until the defense industry geared up and workers started earning enough to go out and find a place for themselves again. 

I have old family letters from relatives in these camps. Any fan of bluegrass music is familiar with their discussion of the labor camps in the Great Depression. They are documented in Depression-era literature such as "The Grapes of Wrath". 

Initially it was not mandatory that you allow yourself to be locked into one of these camps. However farm owners looking for day laborers would only go to the camps, so if you were on the outside you did not have much potential of finding work. By being on the outside you also faced risk of robbery, attack from bandits, arrest for vagrancy, the forced dissolution of your family, or harassment by locals who didn't want you there. Not to mention the very real threat of starvation.

The Farm Security Administration and FEMA's predecessor organization (Federal Emergency Relief Administration) were set up by Roosevelt in the 1930's. They were as close as we've come to America (so far) towards collectivist agriculture like what was practiced in the old Soviet Union. They were part of the "New Deal" legislation where Roosevelt enacted many bailouts and new government agencies with the stroke of a pen. Many critics and economists now believe that Roosevelt simply used the Depression as a means to enact his socialist agenda and actually hampered economic recovery by a period of 17 years. 

History repeats itself. Obama is now using the same rhetoric and dire warnings that Roosevelt did in order to forward his own agenda. If you listen to their speeches and interviews, he and his cabinet members repeatedly refer to Roosevelt. They clearly idolize the former president and his "New Deal". 

Look at the massive numbers of foreclosures and layoffs in the news lately. Look at the locations of these FEMA camps (California, Texas, Arizona, Arkansas, etc.). You've got the makings of a large displaced population (once they can't make rent and they've exhausted the goodwill of friends and relatives). You've got large camps situated in the heart of agricultural territories where corporate agriculture can use them. 

If you don't believe me now, it's because you're not paying attention.


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## Pioneerliving (Jan 10, 2009)

Ernie you said it all....Dont wait..


Pioneer Living Net


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Anyone ever watch "The Grapes of Wrath" or read the book. The government had to set up camps for the safety of homeless people who were out looking for work. 

If worse comes to worse. The government may have to do it again.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

IMO, the economy (dollar) collapses and food becomes scarce. People start moving to "population centers" (cities) where the gov will provide for them. To ensure that no one gets more than their alloted amount of food and actually works, the people will be chipped; the people goes to get food and they get scanned, preventing them from going to a different distribution center for extra food. 

People who refuse to go to the "population centers" will be forceably moved to detention centers.


.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ernie, thank you for printing that. People who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, and this has barely been mentioned-if that- in the history books.

When I said that FEMA camps would be started to care for the homeless, I was actually envisioning the superdome. It was started with such KIND thoughts, but they could not handle it and it became a nightmare. Which is why it would be horrible to be in one!

Uyk7, the farmers want to keep their jobs just like everybody else does. They will not stop farming! The only way for the gov. to do this is to stop the shipping!

Which is theoretically possible, actually. 

I do not believe this is the governments goal. I know what the Bible says about the end times, but I do not believe we are in them. Yet. Ask me again in 6 months!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I suspect that, just like in the 1930's, the government believes that small, independent laborers (farm or cottage industry) are essentially inefficient. They wish to have pooled labor resources working on government-owned property and under the control of government experts. 

It is very difficult to separate out one's political view from this, however. I'll try to keep from attacking Obama and his cabinet, at Angie's request. This view of collective labor under government control is an old socialist ideal held very dear by Obama, the Clintons, and much of this liberal government we suddenly find ourselves under. I think they are doing it with the best of intentions. They simply believe that the liberal educated elite are smarter and more capable of running things than the average man. In their view, human existence could be a paradise if we could only get rid of individuality, religion, and free will.

Unfortunately the former president set the stage for them with his autocratic tendencies. Now they can not only utilize a lot of the precedent and law that Bush put in place, but they've also seen a culture of acceptance when it comes to compromising your freedom versus fear. If you think people were scared of terrorists, just wait until they start seeing their bank accounts dry up, no employment prospects, and their larders going bare. Starvation is a much easier fear to visualize than Islamic jihad. 

We're in for a very tough time. Layoffs are increasing and I don't expect they're going to decrease. With our tax dollars through these bailouts we're managing to keep these banks afloat so they can keep up their foreclosures. Government welfare can only stretch so far, and in all reality, the people who have grown up on welfare are going to be a lot better off on welfare than these new recipients of it. If you've grown up dirt poor and dependent on government cheese, your life is already pretty bare bones, as opposed to middle class America who were used to having a job and relatively all the comforts that their salaries could buy. 

And then there's the civil disturbance side of it. I can't imagine the anger seething out there in America, brewing under the surface. Try and picture, if you will, the mindset of the average American who has just watched his tax dollars taken from him and given to the company which just laid him off and to the bank which is just about to foreclose on him.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I think we'll see a huge volume of commercial real estate foreclosures accompanied by a loud pop from the bursting of the derivates bubble in 2009. This will be coupled by another rise in oil prices and further eroding of our freedoms. 

Ernie you've hit the nail on the head regarding the "we know what's best for you" philosophy of the liberal left (no more political comments - promise). What's so ridiculous, at least from an agricultural standpoint, is that a simple examination of history will show that the collective/corporate model does not work. A successful future lies only in small, diversified farms practicing sustainable agriculture. People need to learn to eat seasonally, locally (no more salad trucked in from 2000 miles away), and preserve what's not eaten in season.

I must say I take issue with one thing you said Ernie - unfortunately, the dollars taken from the average taxpayer aren't going back to keep the banks afloat or provide loans to big business behaving irresponsibly - no those dollars went to fund the massive bunch of entitlement programs we have going. The dollars that went to the banks and auto companies came right off the press!!! They'll eventually need to be paid back ...


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> Uyk7, the farmers want to keep their jobs just like everybody else does. They will not stop farming!


Except for those large sections of farmland that are under a drought. Many farmers are also growing corn for ethanol, not for food. Then you have the big agribusiness that will only get better because they will convince the PTB that they can produce a lot more food than the small time farmers. Also have to remember that a lot of our food that we eat comes from other coutries and if the dollar isn't worth anything, those imports will stop.


.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

uyk7 said:


> Then you have the big agribusiness that will only get better because they will convince the PTB that they can produce a lot more food than the small time farmers.
> 
> 
> .


They can.

Just as long as they have access to cheap oil and fertilizer.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

As far as the FEMA camps, there is an older thread here and I haven't looked it up, but it linked a news article, maybe several sources, to Haliburton and these camps. I printed it off and filed it. I guess if someone wants to stick their head in the sand, fine. I know there are many things being "packaged" and sold and I feel one really needs to dig a bit to maybe get beyond the "cellophane and pretty wrapping" on the "box". There are many here who really dig through things and I feel that is another good resource as the links are often posted. 
Maybe it is me, but this thread illustrates to me that it seems like this forum has been leaning towards GC. Someone always seems to be saying something along the lines of things are great, no worries. Not civil debate like this forum is noted for, just rose colored glasses kind of thing. I am not trying to be snarky and like I said, maybe it is me.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

We are living in interesting times. The world as we know it is fast disappearing. I'm not sure what is coming, but will be different than what we are used to.

The printing presses are running 24 hours a day. They are printing so much fiat money that eventually each dollar will be worth very little. Unless they stop the crazy printing, there is no way to avoid hyperinflation due to the basic law of supply and demand. When there are trillions of extra dollars floating around, they won't be in demand. It's really that simple.

As for the camps. I know they are real and they have been building them for at least the last 20 years. A friend's brother was a contractor on some of the building, so I know it happened. As for what they will be used for... your guess is as good as mine.


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## Zipporah (Jul 30, 2006)

Ok Get my tin foil on.:TFH:I believe there are camps and I believe we are headed toward a cashless society.I think "we the people" has gone out with bath water.Our government does what they want and they tell us it's for our own good (i.e. bailout of Wall Street).


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

In theory, the advantages of the cashless society are that every transaction would be controlled and monitored. The government and the mystery bankers who run the Federal Reserve would then be in absolute control over the entire citizenry. No one would be allowed to create any product or craft that did not ultimately go into the system.

If you wished to convert the United States to a cashless society controlled by shadowy banker-governors, how would you go about it? 

Personally, I feel that Americans would fight against that if you did it right now. The best way to take away that cash is to render it worthless first. What better way to render it worthless than to print so much of it?


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## Zipporah (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> In theory, the advantages of the cashless society are that every transaction would be controlled and monitored. The government and the mystery bankers who run the Federal Reserve would then be in absolute control over the entire citizenry. No one would be allowed to create any product or craft that did not ultimately go into the system.
> 
> If you wished to convert the United States to a cashless society controlled by shadowy banker-governors, how would you go about it?
> 
> Personally, I feel that Americans would fight against that if you did it right now. The best way to take away that cash is to render it worthless first. What better way to render it worthless than to print so much of it?


Exactly and look at our system today with all the mess on Wall Street.


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## woodsy_gardener (May 27, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Try and picture, if you will, the mindset of the average American who has just watched his tax dollars taken from him and given to the company which just laid him off and to the bank which is just about to foreclose on him.


Thanks Ernie.

That is one powerful sentence.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I hope this doesn't come off as too gloomy, Or just flat out doom.

When I 1st discovered the internet,years ago, I headed straight to the conspiracy sights.
I bought most of the stories, hook, line & sinker.

Theres an evil government, camps, mark of the beast, were doomed, etc.

As to the camps, I dont believe in so much anymore, & this is why. I dont think it would be possible to throw all of us in some, & clothe, feed, & house, & provide medical services to. Plus who would be left to grow the food, or the animals to feed all the prisoners? Also I firmly believe that on an individualistic level, the government could care less if we lived or died. No need to set up a camp when you could leave people to starve to death, or shoot it out with each other, or refuse medical services to.

As to the economy, I firmly believe its been run by greedy bankers, who work on a fractional reserve ponzi scheme.All economies, the good & bad times are manipulated,by bankers, purposely. Those same bankers do hate America & the ideal it stands for, namely that you can choose your own destiny. What better way to destroy the republic than to wind up owning all the land in the country, they didn't own the real-estate before, yet now due to defaulted loans/payment they do. What we are seeing is a massive land grab/ownership.
It seems to me when different country's economies get to out of whack, the solution seems to be a world war, so I suspect thats on its way.

As to the mark of the beast, this part gets tricky. Let me just say I do believe in God/Jesus, yet I dont believe they have anything to do with this.
I dont always believe in the bible, yet I also think revelations might be a metaphor.
The metaphor is, if we, collectively, worship greed, power & separation(as in my way is better than yours,my religion is better than yours, I got mine, who cares about you) then this whole system will collapse.
I think it is time, to come together, to an extent, & work together as a world community.
That would include throwing off the chains of repressive governments world wide.Living within our means world wide, get rid of shady bankers that desire world control, & be honest & fair with each other.
Quite taking advantage of each other, like we do to 3rd world country's, & their labor.
Get rid of the taxes that fund over-bloated governments, in all countries.
Stop taking money from one group to give to another, let people decide who they will or won't help.
Maybe its a metaphor that we all come together, learn to live together, respect each other,be fair, dont try to change each other,& within reason,(murder,etc) let people live how they choose to, hold those in power as accountable as they to hold us.

If you really want some alternative ideas/info, try David Icke


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Just some of my thoughts on religion, & Im not trying to bash anyone else's religion.
What if there is God? What is God?
What if there is Satan? what is satan?
I believe there is God, & that we were given life,& minds to think with.
I believe sorta in satan, I think satan represents giving up the power to think for ourselves, believing in something outside of ourselves, worshipping something a person thinks will save them. Worshipping personalitys over principles.
The mind kind be a tricky thing though. I think thats where a satanic mindset gets most folks.
Life & death are a given, we are all going to die at some point. What matters?
I don't think God cares on an individualistic level if we live or die
Some times I think, that what matters is if you did the best you could do with what you had to work with. I do think there is some kind of judgement after death.
I sometimes wonder if we are judged not on right or wrong,(that would be presuming to know the mind of God, & last I heard thats a bad sin) but if we mostly did what we felt was the right thing to do, as opposed to knowingly doing what we/knew felt to be evil, & doing it anyways.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Trinity3, have you ever heard of Chuck Harder... I used to listen to his radio program years ago on my way home from work. He was big into conspiracy theories.. and it seems as though he was sort of tricked off the air by a 'friend' who was often on his show. Kinda strange...

and I believe it was Howard Ruff who basically said the central banking system was a giant Ponzi scheme that was doomed to fail.. He talked about that back in the 70's..

oookayyy... reptilians???? hmmm


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree with Tracy Rimmer's post about the future of our economy,bleak at best,and with sonshine about the spiritual implications.
A special thanks to Ernie for your post about the AML camps.I did not know this.I have found your posts to be more educational and thought provoking than from any other poster I've read on the web.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> I dont think it would be possible to throw all of us in some, & clothe, feed, & house, & provide medical services to.


They wouldn't have to throw "all of us" into these camps, just those who refuse to relocate to the cities. Those that get placed into these camps won't be given free food, etc... unless they work/produce. IMO, if the people in the camps change their minds about going to the cities then they will be relocated to a city.

As for people growing the food, big agribusiness will be doing that for us. They can use the "free" labor provided at these FEMA camps. Don't forget that there is an EO that allows the gov to round up citizens and put them to work.


.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

IMHO, if anyone in this country is wanting to fill agriculture, or any other large corporation with a controlled workforce, it would be those at the federal reserve, or big time capitalists, as they are the people who profit most from this system. I don't believe a majority of the elected officials agree or support this model, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

And, the angriest people we're going to see are unemployed workers and retirees, or those soon to retire, who've been robbed to prop up the status quo, and have watched their life savings vanish.

All the rest, meh, either they have enough to see them through it, or they will barely notice a difference in the economy due to lifelong poverty.


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## Razorback21 (May 13, 2003)

You know, I don't believe our leadership is evil and conniving. I just don't think anyone knows what they are doing. We have gotten ourselves a bankrupt banking system that the Federal Government is desparatly is trying to prop up and because of that, the house of cards is falling around us. 

The timing of when the dollar crisis will hit is anyone's guess, but it is certain to happen. That is one thing all economists agree on: when you monetize debt, the value of your currency will fall by an proportional amount.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Agree with Razorback - I don't think it's possible to try and manipulate an economic system so large and complex. Therein lies the problem - the size and complexity.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Razorback21 said:


> The timing of when the dollar crisis will hit is anyone's guess, but it is certain to happen. That is one thing all economists agree on: when you monetize debt, the value of your currency will fall by an proportional amount.


Which makes me question why we keep repeating the same mistakes others have made in the past?

Depending on which side you're on, this may or may not be a rhetorical question. For me, it's a rhetorical question. As I believe this country has turned into the exact monstrosity the forefathers fought and debated at length to prevent. I would point to the creation of the Federal Reserve as the beginning of the end of what they'd envisioned.

At this point, I don't believe there is an economic model the world has tried which prevents the seemingly cyclical nature of nations rising and later collapsing.

If TPTB manage to prevent a collapse, then it looks like a combination of regulated capitalism and socialism is the solution to prevent social unrest and promote prosperity.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> You know, I don't believe our leadership is evil and conniving.


To the extent that they no longer (and haven't for a long time) care about upholding their oath of office (uphold the constitution) they are. They need to start following the constitution (no work arounds - i.e. Saxby fix) as the first step to fixing what is wrong in our economy. Notice that I kept religion out of it.


.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

The sky is falling, they sky is falling!!!

:banana02::banana02::banana02:

Did someone yell fire in our crowded theater and I miss it? :stars:


This is a prep forum, so prep, prep like there is no tomorrow or prep like you don't care. Prep prep prep.

As far as the GC theme I have to agree. Of course that is only because we don't have a paranoia/conspiracy forum. All this speculation amounts to what besides more stress?

Prep within your comfort level and prep within a SANE budget, there isn't much else one can do. End of story.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

There's always a 'worst case scenario' --- but, what's the 'best case scenario" ? There must be one, eh?


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## Razorback21 (May 13, 2003)

uyk7 said:


> To the extent that they no longer (and haven't for a long time) care about upholding their oath of office (uphold the constitution) they are. They need to start following the constitution (no work arounds - i.e. Saxby fix) as the first step to fixing what is wrong in our economy. Notice that I kept religion out of it..


uyk7:
The two parties have taught these politicians what their version of the constitution is. You are so correct, following the US Constitution would solve some problems we have right now. Unfortunately, you are preaching to the choir my friend. Those folks in Washington need to read your post. Not that they will follow it or anything!!!!!!!!! lol.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Woodsy_Gardener and GroundhogII, thank you for your kind comments. I'm striving to be less confrontational and more factual and informative, so a little encouragement goes a long way. Most days I finish up my brief blogcrawl and forum reading and want to shake people. "Don't you see what is happening? Do you not see where this road ends?" I feel a lot of the time like I'm not getting anywhere.

I think where a lot of you folks go off the trail is when you listen to what we say about government conspiracy or plans and you say, "Oh, they can't be THAT evil so obviously it isn't happening." 

I do not believe there has ever been any pogrom or scheme put in place where the people responsible rubbed their hands together and gloated happily about their evilness. They've always thought they were doing something good for society, for their race, or maybe even just for themselves and their friends and families. Even Hitler's worst henchmen thought they were improving the German race and condition. 

We need to keep in mind that the people who are putting these plans into action are doing so with the _best_ of intentions, not the worst. They simply have the all-too-human desire to control our actions for our own good. They wish to protect us from consequences that they feel we are too dimwitted to foresee. They wish to make a better society and think our values of individual liberty and family are nothing more than archaic notions from a bygone era ... closer to pagan tribes dancing around a totem pole than the modern civilization they wish to create. 

Labor is inherent in the human condition. We cannot avoid it if we wish to live and the Bible even tells us that we are to embrace labor as part of a godly life. 

Keep in mind, however, that there is a world of difference in labor you do for yourself and your family, versus labor that is forced upon you by the state.


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## no hurry (Mar 16, 2008)

For the record, those of us who have evaced for a few hurricanes know that even a great contraflow plan wont get everyone in and out fast enough. I evaced for Katrina and met families who had to leave everything behind to fit as many relatives into the car as possible. Trains are an awesome idea. I spent many a sleepless night feeling guilty that I had the resources to evac and my neighbors (good honest hard working folks) didn't. Unless you have been through it, you wouldn't appreciate what a good idea it actually is.

Secondly, I am ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY. I have been on several of the bases/posts that the "camps" are supposedly being set up on. If you had followed the story, you would actually know that the idea to allow old base buildings to be used as temp housing worked quite well then. You would also know, that the people who stayed in those buildings were NOT ALLOWED to stay. Kind of craps out the gonna make you stay idea doesnt it???

Finally, now that Im really getting going, it is illegal to classify that sort of information thanks to the CIA shenanigans in the 60s. You just cant do it. You can only classify info if National Security is at stake. Trust me, we get to go over this stuff a lot in my line of work. So go ahead and ask FEMA anything you want about their plans. Under the FOIA, they have to tell you. There are oversight committees for the oversight committees to protect you as an American from such events.

There are way more likely things to worry about than such falsehoods. 
//end rant


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## Mrs.Swirtz (Jan 13, 2009)

The Tin Mom said:


> Didn't see your post until I posted the link.....
> 
> Why 2012?


Why 2012? That's the date 12-21-2012 when most of the old civilazations predicted would be the end of the world. All the planets in the solar system are going to line up . Only happens every so many tens of thousands of years. May or may not change the angle or rotation of the earth. There are supposed to be major solar flares that can knock out power grids. S far that's all I've heard.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> So go ahead and ask FEMA anything you want about their plans. Under the FOIA, they have to tell you. There are oversight committees for the oversight committees to protect you as an American from such events.


Sure they will tell you anything, of course you may have to wait years to get an answer. May not be classified but they don't necessarily have to tell you either. Just because some judge tells them to open up doesn't mean they will. An EO can keep the information secret.



> Kind of craps out the gonna make you stay idea doesnt it???


Not really. At one time people could keep their money, now they can't. Just because something was done "that way" once doesn't mean it will be that way later.

.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Marie04 said:


> There's always a 'worst case scenario' --- but, what's the 'best case scenario" ? There must be one, eh?


Recession now, inflation later. (Not hyperinflation: just double-digit inflation)

Edited to add: the worst case scenario, in my opinion, ends with a strong central state and very little freedom for us. And, the bill of rights would be trashed. But I think we will not go there!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> Woodsy_Gardener and GroundhogII, thank you for your kind comments. I'm striving to be less confrontational and more factual and informative, so a little encouragement goes a long way. Most days I finish up my brief blogcrawl and forum reading and want to shake people. "Don't you see what is happening? Do you not see where this road ends?" I feel a lot of the time like I'm not getting anywhere.


MIGHT end, Ernie. You will feel much better if you remember that it MIGHT end there!

There are a good many people who see the risk, and who are working against it. And, there are a lot of ways OFF the road that we are on, and I personally think we will not end there!

I will admit that we CAN end there. But, we could have ended up there before now, and we haven't because there are people who are pushing for a different road. 

This is why history classes are so important!


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Mrs.Swirtz said:


> Why 2012? That's the date 12-21-2012 when most of the old civilazations predicted would be the end of the world. All the planets in the solar system are going to line up . Only happens every so many tens of thousands of years. May or may not change the angle or rotation of the earth. There are supposed to be major solar flares that can knock out power grids. S far that's all I've heard.


Actually the planets have never aligned. Even if they did, the only objects in the solar system that affect planet Earth are the moon (because of proximity) and the sun (because of mass). The Mayans only charted out to 2012 because that's all they had time to do before their civilization fell.

The whole 2012 thing is just a hoax. You can read more about at http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planets.html


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Thinking about the whole, overall picture... if I had to make a prediction... 

Best case scenario - The economy will cause us to cycle back to how life was about 40-60 years ago.. during and after WWII. Things will become much more precious because of their unavailability and because people will not have the money to buy the things they need and/or want. This will last for several years, perhaps 10 or more. There is an upside to this, even though many people will struggle and may even suffer. To me, the upside is that the wastefulness that we've seen especially in the last 20 years or so will stop. The 'throwaway society' that we've become accustomed to will not exist, and that would be a very good thing.. would bring families closer together, would be better for the environment, be healthier.. appreciate what we do have.

During WWII there was rationing of many staple items. After that it was the norm to make do, use up, and wear out.. 

Worst case scenario - civil unrest with unknown outcomes, many of which may be what Ernie is talking about...

What I don't think will happen is that this is going to blow over and life will continue on as usual.. there will be change, for sure..


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Aintlifegrand said:


> I agree that this time is much different.. we cannot look back and compare this crisis for two main reasons... the financial issues are much greater in amounts and complexity and we are a debtor nation rather than a creditor nation as we were in the GD 1...
> 
> for instance.. talking about this bad bank thing ( similar to the RTC of the 80's S&L crisis).. if the govt does this they cannot even begin to pay the banks the value of these assets that the banks have on the books.. too much for the govt to handle and if we priont that much the dollar collaspes.. but if they buy the assets for less.. the banks will be declared insolvent.. so the fix is not there. There is too much.. some estimate is over 4 trillion dollars ( 4x our already unmanageable debt interms of finding foreign countries willing to service the debt)... so comparing this problem to the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 80's is absurd as it cannot be fixed the same way. and this is only one section of the problem. The housing, the consumer lack of spending when our economy is 70% based on spending.. down huge for Dec and revised Nov.numbers worse than first reported. Unemployment will be double digit by late spring...Everywhere you look it is messy.. the bond market dislocation on the horizion, the equities falling, the main street real crisis...
> 
> ...


One thing to consider is, right or wrong, this country has a better infrastructure and a safety net, which were either not as existent or non existent during GD1. This may be a good thing, but it could go either way. One of the good aspects of this is, no new system needs to be created to distribute food supplies. It's already in place if anyone needs it.

I'm not sure we can't solve this without withdrawing into our shells and becoming more protectionist for some time to stabilize the country. Too many good paying jobs have been outsourced to support a consumer economy. 

I too would like to see a return to quality products. But believe the answer lies in recreating a manufacturing base here to produce them. Otherwise, where is the money going to come from to buy them?

Being of the preparedness mindset, it makes sense to me that any country should have the capability to be self-sustaining regardless of worldwide circumstances. This country has gone in the opposite direction, and now we're left without the expertise and skill to get back up to speed.

It's a pretty scary time. I don't see us coming through this without widespread, major adjustments for most working people. It's very sad things had to happen this way for people to wake up and participate in the governments decisions.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

uyk7 said:


> Except for those large sections of farmland that are under a drought. Many farmers are also growing corn for ethanol, not for food. Then you have the big agribusiness that will only get better because they will convince the PTB that they can produce a lot more food than the small time farmers. Also have to remember that a lot of our food that we eat comes from other coutries and if the dollar isn't worth anything, those imports will stop.
> 
> 
> .


The history channel had an interesting segment on last night about the dust bowl.

What I see happening is big ag will be the industry with the money to hire cloud seeders to produce more rain in times of drought, which in turn will make them more profitable and monopolizing.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

The Tin Mom said:


> I was right!
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
> ...



The actor George Takei (Sulu on Star Trek, and wassisface on Heroes) spent a good portion of his childhood in a Japanese internment camp -- actually, if memory serves, it was the one that was up the road from me here in Arizona. He talks about it in his autobiography. Doesn't sound like it was an exactly pleasant experience, especially (reading between the lines) for the adults.

(Interesting man -- and a total class act as actors go.)

-- Leva


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

Personally I think if each person looks at their decision and choices over the past 20-30 years they see where their personal responsibility in this mess lay. IMHO that is the only reason there are not riots in the streets and CEO's and stockbrokers being hung in the city squares. If someone is not angry over this giant hoax we are being sold as a "rescue plan" for our economy, they are simply not paying attention. Ordinary folks are lossing their homes while the ruling class are jetting around having a great time. What a joke!!


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> I do not believe there has ever been any pogrom or scheme put in place where the people responsible rubbed their hands together and gloated happily about their evilness.


I do. But we won't go there. ;-)


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

diane said:


> Personally I think if each person looks at their decision and choices over the past 20-30 years they see where their personal responsibility in this mess lay. IMHO that is the only reason there are not riots in the streets and CEO's and stockbrokers being hung in the city squares. If someone is not angry over this giant hoax we are being sold as a "rescue plan" for our economy, they are simply not paying attention. Ordinary folks are lossing their homes while the ruling class are jetting around having a great time. What a joke!!



I agree. And the fact that Congress can't see it shows how *out of touch* they are!! I certainly hope this new stimulus bill fails.....!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Regarding the "internment camps".....
I can see the likes of Ernie (and more than a few of us who can still think) being reeducated and force fed more than enough corporate kool-aid so that he/we are no longer a threat.
Ernie ( and many many others) MUST be chilled down so that they can then be returned, safely, to the massive herd of sheeple (Zombies ?)



PS love your posts Ernie . . . . .don't stop untill they carry you off in a straight jacket.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> Regarding the "internment camps".....
> I can see the likes of Ernie (and more than a few of us who can still think) being reeducated and force fed more than enough corporate kool-aid so that he/we are no longer a threat.
> Ernie ( and many many others) MUST be chilled down so that they can then be returned, safely, to the massive herd of sheeple (Zombies ?)
> 
> ...


And on that note, I hope nobody minds me posting this interesting little tidbit someone pointed me to today:

IBM offering to relocate workers to India, China, Brazil



> IBM has cut an estimated 4,000 jobs since it reported fourth-quarter earnings. This Associated Press story described the plight of one laid-off IBM worker:
> 
> "Jim Gallo, 48, who said he worked in IBM software support for 27 years, was among those let go from that facility[IBM's Essex Junction facility in Vermont]. Gallo, drinking a Grey Goose and ginger ale at nearby Lincoln Inn on Tuesday, said he hadn't told his four children yet.
> 
> ...


I don't know about you all, but I'm just about fed up with corporate war on the common man of this country. I don't consider these people americans any longer. They are global capitalists from the planet of profitability propaganda, and I'm hoping for a serious backlash from people who've had their jobs outsourced to prop up Wall Street gambling.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

What all do you think is going to happen? How fast?

I think those people who are prepared for bad times, in a cashless (ain't nobody got no money, and no goods to spend the money on) economy, will have a better chance of surviving than those who don't plan ahead.

I can deal with a little inflation. Hyper-inflation scares me. Deflation or recession don't bother me at all. The economy would still be moving, if somewhat slowly. Deflation might actually make my purchases cheaper, if the manufacturers actually survive in such times to make things.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

pickapeppa said:


> I don't know about you all, but I'm just about fed up with corporate war on the common man of this country. I don't consider these people americans any longer. They are global capitalists from the planet of profitability propaganda, and I'm hoping for a serious backlash from people who've had their jobs outsourced to prop up Wall Street gambling.


The only stock I own I feed every day... so I don't have that much of a direct stake in the 'corporate world'.

However, corporations must make a profit, and pay said profits to stockholders, or else, they go out of business. Or, they get nationalized by the Obama Administration.

No One works for nothing. If they do, they won't last long. Without a profit motive (no matter whether it's minimum wages for a worker, or profits for a small business owner), people won't get out of bed. I won't get out of bed and work for someone (unless I've eaten at their table) for less than X amount of money.

Without profits, corporate or otherwise, the entire system shuts down, and the zombies are set free...


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

texican said:


> The only stock I own I feed every day... so I don't have that much of a direct stake in the 'corporate world'.
> 
> However, corporations must make a profit, and pay said profits to stockholders, or else, they go out of business. Or, they get nationalized by the Obama Administration.
> 
> ...


I know this isn't the place for this discussion, so will keep it at this:

All of the above applies, if all parties act within confines of reasonableness. Which doesn't apply today on many fronts.

These companies need workers to survive and prosper, but when they've cut wages so low and driven costs so high that it's impossible, they've pushed too far in one direction. There is plenty of money in these companies to prevent workers from losing their home, their jobs, their retirement savings, and still make a profit and decent salary at the top. The problem is, they don't know when to stop, and have no clue what the value of a dollar means to the people who make their companies a success. They're out of touch and need to face reality.


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## woodsy_gardener (May 27, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Woodsy_Gardener and GroundhogII, thank you for your kind comments. I'm striving to be less confrontational and more factual and informative, so a little encouragement goes a long way. Most days I finish up my brief blogcrawl and forum reading and want to shake people. "Don't you see what is happening? Do you not see where this road ends?" I feel a lot of the time like I'm not getting anywhere.


I liked it so much I put it up on DailyKos, hope you don't mind. I said this:

President Obama is a Decent Human Being.

Unlike the sociopaths Bush and Cheney.
Unfortunately he doesn't seem to understand the current economic problems. Instead of giving the banksters prison time he's giving them $$$.

I'm poor as are most of my friends. We are furious about what is happening. Ernie at homesteadingtoday.com com put it this way:


> Try and picture, if you will, the mindset of the average American who has just watched his tax dollars taken from him and given to the company which just laid him off and to the bank which is just about to foreclose on him.


This will not end well.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I don't mind at all. I hope my words are like sparks flying from a furnace, to land in dry tinder and ignite many smaller fires.

And as for you, Jim-mi ... I'll save you a seat in the gulag.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> I don't mind at all. I hope my words are like sparks flying from a furnace, to land in dry tinder and ignite many smaller fires.
> 
> And as for you, Jim-mi ... I'll save you a seat in the gulag.


I think we're all hoping the same.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I don't mind at all. I hope my words are like sparks flying from a furnace, to land in dry tinder and ignite many smaller fires.
> 
> And as for you, Jim-mi ... I'll save you a seat in the gulag.



I'll bake you guys a loaf of fresh ground whole wheat bread with a file in it.:lonergr:

If anyone asks I don't know you.


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## Ryanstones (May 10, 2005)

great minds...

"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority
keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." - Samuel Adams


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