# why isn't my goat bred?



## GeorgiaberryM (Mar 30, 2004)

What am I going to do? She just keeps coming into heat over and over - she is in with a buck all the time - the other goat is in there too and she is definately bred - the buck follows her around and wants to "do it" - what is the problem?

She (Jill) is a young saanan, not yet a year old, and the buck (Jack) is the same. For both this is their first breeding season. The other goat (Cinnamon) is an older nubian who has been bred before. I am sure she is bred because she hasn't come back into heat and she is looking pretty big around the tummy - she is due march 7 by my reckoning.

I am locking Jack and Jill up together in the goat barn today and hoping he will corner her - is there any way to hold her down? This doesn't sound very pleasant for her, but better than not being bred - I don't want to feed her for a whole year more - more likely she will be feeding me if you know what I mean.

How much longer will she be going into heat, and what causes this seasonal breeding? Is it day legnth?


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## Goat Freak (Jul 6, 2005)

How old is she exactly, she may be too young. Bye the way, does she have horns so that she can get her head stuck, works like a charm, we have had this happen on accident before and when the buck was done the doe WAS bred. Good Luck, bye.


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## GeorgiaberryM (Mar 30, 2004)

No horns, but I might tie her up . . .

I don't know exactly how old - couldn't get this info when I bought her, but she is big enough, and healthy.

I thought if she was old enough to go into heat she was old enough to conceive. Maybe this isn't correct?

Wisdom, please . . .


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## Goat Freak (Jul 6, 2005)

NO trust me, if they are old enough to go into heat they can get pregnant, we had a little girl get pregnant at ONE MONTH old because we had been told by basclly everyong that they don't go into heat until they are about 4 months old, and she was NOT in heat either, he just got her and she was pregnant. By the way, don't tie her up, she could strandle herself that way. Sounds like the best idea is to get her conered for the buck. Well good luck, bye.


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Have you seen him mount her at all? I would hand breed her. If she's in heat now, get her on a lead and take her to the buck. He should do his thing pretty quickly. Let him go at least twice. If she doesn't stand for him, she may already be bred? If she comes back in in 21 days, then perhaps look at other causes. Could she be a hermaphrodite or a freemartin?


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## Bluebutterfly (Jul 17, 2005)

Hope this doesn't sound stupid but .. WHat is a Freemartin?


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## Key (Apr 2, 2005)

Cattle have freemartins, too----If I remember correctly, it is the heifer twin to a bull calf (or buckling brother in this case). Such female calves (or does)can be sterile.


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## Key (Apr 2, 2005)

PS This only happens once in a while...I have had many fertile does and heifers with twin brothers.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

Key, the only time I've even read of this happening with does is potentially in offspring of polled bred to polled. Not an issue with twins, triples, quads, any assortment of does/bucks.

If it weren't so late in the season, I'd suggest you separate the doeling so that you know for sure when she comes into heat. In most cases, the doe is in heat and ready when she will actually stand for the buck, even though he might be interested at other times in the cycle.


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## Key (Apr 2, 2005)

Thanks, Mary. I wasn't sure if this happened in goats or not....I thought I'd try to deifne it for Bluebutterfly. It is very common in cows. I am glad that it doesn't happen with doelings or else a bunch of my does would be sterile. Often local dairy farms sell off such female calves when they are born even though sometimes they can be fertile. 
Georgiaberry...don't get frustrated...sometimes my doelings seem a bit skitterish "the first time" they are bred.


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Freemartins:
It can happen with goats. (BTW, It's not from the polled gene issue, that's hermaphroditism.) It happens when a doeling and buckling form in the same horn of the uterus. The male hormones interfere with her development and she doesn't develop a real uterus. You can tell by a vaginal exam. In a freemartin, you can only go in about halfway, then you'll hit a wall instead of a cervix. A vaginal exam would also tell you if this doe was a hermaphrodite, you'll find a penis in there. 

Hermaphroditism can happen when both parents are polled. Do you know about the parents of this doeling? 



Key said:


> Thanks, Mary. I wasn't sure if this happened in goats or not....I thought I'd try to deifne it for Bluebutterfly. It is very common in cows. I am glad that it doesn't happen with doelings or else a bunch of my does would be sterile. Often local dairy farms sell off such female calves when they are born even though sometimes they can be fertile.
> Georgiaberry...don't get frustrated...sometimes my doelings seem a bit skitterish "the first time" they are bred.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

The first time Cayenne "met" the buck we brought home for her, she was quite overwhelmed by all of his blubbering and goblin noises- she wanted him, but was nervous of him.

I eventually just went in there with her, tucked her muzzle under my arm, scritched her behind the ears, and the buck did his deed.

First time I ever had a "threesome", -giggle-


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I feel for those of you who are learning only via the internet. You don't have a mentor who can come and look at the doe for you? If there is nothing wrong with her she is likely bred, the buck continues to show her affection because he can, she is likely smaller than him. The older doe wouldn't let him around, and if she had someone else to choose to breed her, she wouldn't have let this young buck near her even when in heat! She has likely put her in his place many times, so he doesn't bother her, so he bothers the young doe who is running because she is not in heat. A doe in heat, stands for the buck, you don't have to hold her or tie her.....why they call it standing heat. 

Yes, we have used the head in the fence method on older does, let them romance the older buck through the cattle panel while we sneak the young buck up behind them 

A blood test, you can find the info on a thread right after yours, is cheap insurance, than you can get that buck out of the pen. You might want to join a local club, or call them, they are listed at ADGA.org and see if you can get someone to come and look at your doe. Is her vulva tiny and tipped? When he breeds he does the semen get all over her butt quickly, and not just nasty on her tail? This is a sign of an incomplete vagina. The only true hemaphrodites I have seen were obvious to anyone, penis/balls/vagina. Freemartins are sometimes only found a butcher, when a doe is found not to have a uterus, she comes into heat every 21 days, is bred, but there is no place for the baby to grow, does with incomplete vaginas, the sperm can not get to the egg...and does who are not does, but bucks with penis inside the vagina. Vicki


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## GeorgiaberryM (Mar 30, 2004)

This is all very strange and interesting. I have heard/read about the hermaphrodite goats and the polling - our nubian is naturally polled, and our buck Jack is not - he has awful little scurs. The doe Jill has nubs where she was dehorned. 

The incomplete vagina business has me nervous. I have NO problem telling when she is in heat, believe me. Her pale vulva turns bright red and swells to about triple its normal size! Plus she goes through the fence every five minutes - she only escapes when she is in heat. I have her cycle recurring on my calender, and she is like clockwork. This time though she is not quite as red and enflamed as in times past.

Is it possible for someone to tell just by looking if a doe has an incompete vagina? I don't think I can justify the expense of a vet exam on this animal.

In past heats, especially last time, she has been, well, gloppy around the rear end area. I took this as semen, and hoped she was bred. It was pale yellowish glop.

Today I did lock them together in the barn for a while, and I spent a long time (45 mins or so) with her on a lead trying to let Jacko have his way. With all the flailing hooves, I couldn't tell if we had acheived penetration.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Does Jill fight or resist Jack's advances? Even if she is fertile, she won't get bred if he can't catch her! It sounds very mean, but I wait for her to come in heat, lure her into a feeder with with some nice treat, tie her so she is locked in there, and then release the buck. You might also have to stand on one side of her to keep her from moving sideways. Then----> watch the buck closely. Does he mount and penetrate her? Can he get in? 

Sometimes a young doe is nervous her first time, and usually once she has been bred once, she realizes that the buck is nothing to be afraid of. 

If he breeds her and she comes back into heat, frankly, I would try a different buck. It isn't always the does fault. Some bucks lack libido, period. Others have lots of snort and show with very little action- they either get tuckered out before the grand finale or are inexperienced and funble around too much. Or he might be able to breed but is infertile or has a low sperm count. 

How do her teats and vulva look? Are they normal sized and average in appearance?


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## Goat Freak (Jul 6, 2005)

Some times the gloop is not semen, I had a scare before and thought that one of our girls, actually our midget, somehow got bred, then found out later that she was in heat and that that was the reason for the gloop. Good Luck with your girl. Bye.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

GeorgiaberryM said:


> Is it possible for someone to tell just by looking if a doe has an incompete vagina? I don't think I can justify the expense of a vet exam on this animal.
> .


Have someone hold her or tie her up and press her against the fence, lube up a forefinger, and see if you can slide it in -- If you can't get your finger in very far, there's your answer. 

Is there no goat person around you could ask to come take a look at her via speculum? It would honestly be a 5 minute deal.

Or for $15 you can draw some blood (get a 20 cent red topped blood tube and a regular syringe/needle) and send it in to BioTracking for a 98-99% accurate pregnancy test.

Tracy


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Is it possible for a doe with cystic ovaries to cycle regularly? I've only heard of that problem with irregular, frequent cyclers. Otherwise, goats can have conception problems for many reasons. I know of breeders who've had does not settle for three or four years and then suddenly they're pregnant.


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey Tracy,
Where do you get your supplies for blood draws? I'm thinking of trying it on our difficult doe, but I don't feel like shelling out more $$$ for the vet to come draw the blood. Do you do draw from the tail, like with cattle on biotracking site? 

Thanks!



Tracy in Idaho said:


> Or for $15 you can draw some blood (get a 20 cent red topped blood tube and a regular syringe/needle) and send it in to BioTracking for a 98-99% accurate pregnancy test.
> 
> Tracy


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

homebirtha said:


> Hey Tracy,
> Where do you get your supplies for blood draws? I'm thinking of trying it on our difficult doe, but I don't feel like shelling out more $$$ for the vet to come draw the blood. Do you do draw from the tail, like with cattle on biotracking site?
> 
> Thanks!


No -- we draw from the jugular -- here is a site with photos http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=64 
-- it is VERY easy to do. We use a regular syringe/needle combo -- you only need 2 cc.

Personally, I just bought blood tubes off eBay <g> I have gotten them from my vet before, as well as from the local health clinic  YOu can also buy them online from PBS http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-...x.html?L+scstore+txpf1972ff2e9c2e+1133328189  

Tracy


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Thanks! That looks easy enough. 

The only places I can find only sell the vaccutainers by the box. I don't think I'll ever need 140 tubes. lol.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

You can get the vacutain needles from your vet, individually, at least I can. Most vets really would rather not come out to the farm to draw blood from a bunch of goats if it can be avoided...so they are more cooperative about selling the supplies than you would think!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

I never bother with getting the vacutainer needles, I just use a regular needle and syringe -- 

the only thing you need to find is that red topped blood tube. If you have a local health clinic, ask them if you can buy/have one (they cost about 20 cents) Or simply ask the vet if you can buy one -- even a dog vet would have them. Tell them your kid is doing a science experiment if you have to <G>

Like Chamoisee said, most vets hate to deal with goat herds and are more than happy to sell you the stuff so they don't have to come out. Since I am 45 miles from the vet up a steep and trecherous winter highway, mine sells me all kinds of stuff so that he doesn't have to be called, lol.

Tracy


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