# Problems with feeding too much grain to cattle



## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I stop by occasionally, and read a post by Haypoint that needs to be addressed, in the thread, "buying a half cow".

"Grass fed is mostly meaningless. Almost all cattle are grass fed. Grass in the summer, hay in the winter. "Finish", where cattle make their final gains, is generally grain. Grain is good for cattle. They grow well on grain."

To say that all cattle are grass fed misses the whole point of the term. Of course the calves eat milk and forage early in life. But to finish, most are put on a predominantly grain or carbohydrate (concentrate) ration. The feedlots I know are near row crop areas, with potato waste, etc, that also causes issues.

To say "grain" is good for cattle is wrong. Sure, they can handle some grain, but not the levels in feedlots. We should know that if cattle break into the grain bin and eat too much, they can die. Does that happen with hay?

Cattle are ruminants with forestomachs used to ferment forage. They are not monogastrics like pigs or humans that can eat grain/carbohydrate without incident.

Microbes in the rumen of cattle digest roughage. When too much grain or carbohydrate is eaten, those microbes change to produce acid (acidosis). The acid causes rumen ulceration, which allows microbes to enter the bloodstream and go to the liver, etc, and cause abscesses.

To reduce such infections, antibiotics/buffers are added to feed. I once read a panel of veterinarians concerned that if antibiotics were banned, the abscess rate would go up. At that time, they hoped to keep the rate of abscesses down to 15%. In some feedlots it is up to 40% of cattle affected.

It is all economics. Too high of abscesses and too many livers condemned and you lose money.
The more grain you can cram in them, the more money you make/save, and the more consumers save.

Which raises the ethics question - is it ok to make animals sick in the interest of economics?

And to get the calves to where the grain is fed, requires handling, shipping long distances, and stress. Which leads to pneumonia, etc. A veterinarian once wrote in the Merck Manual about the stress, "We shouldn't ask why any get sick, but why any live."

Brother helped build and worked in a feedlot. He has commented that you aren't a real cattleman until you have a dead pile.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Foie gras anyone? 

https://www.dartagnan.com/foie-gras-history.html


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

As a Cattleman I find this to be a slap in the face; and something I would expect to be posted on Peta's web site thanks. I grain finish our Cattle and you *need* to slowly build up to a full ration, note I hold them at full ration of 20 pounds for 120 days or 25 pounds for 90 days with hay and all the water they want. Every critter on our ranch are cared for in a humane manner and w/ kindness period.

If, you want to grass finish your cattle God bless you but don't you dare say I abuse my Cattle because I choose to grain finish them chasing the all mighty buck! Lastly NO the sign of a cattleman is not a huge "dead pile" but NOT having a dead pile.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here in Texas grass fed means grass finished. It is available at family run cattle operations and at the Farmers’ Markets. 

It is a leaner beef.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Here in Texas grass fed means grass finished. It is available at family run cattle operations and at the Farmers’ Markets.
> 
> It is a leaner beef.


Yep. Less flavor and etc. I have seen some of this before all grass fed. Poor cows. Milk cows need a bit of cotton seed mill twice a day. My steers and meat cows get grain in the afternoon. They do eat a lot of grass etc. in the pastures in the day time. I raise what the market can use and the best price i can get. My cattle run around in circles and jumping up and down when they see me coming with ground corn etc.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

DJ in WA said:


> To say "grain" is good for cattle is wrong. Sure, they can handle some grain, but not the levels in feedlots. We should know that if cattle break into the grain bin and eat too much, they can die. Does that happen with hay?


I don't recall from the original post you quoted from that he advocated feeding cattle "too much grain".


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

I saw a horrible accident one time. A guy left his son in law in charge of feeding some yearlings.They ate all their grains, SOL thought they were still hungry so fed them more twice. 14 head foundered and died.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

oldasrocks said:


> I saw a horrible accident one time. A guy left his son in law in charge of feeding some yearlings.They ate all their grains, SOL thought they were still hungry so fed them more twice. 14 head foundered and died.


Cattle, sheep, and goats can die if they eat to much grain at one time. I think most people know to only feed so much grain a day to some stock.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

“To say "grain" is good for cattle is wrong. Sure, they can handle some grain, but not the levels in feedlots. We should know that if cattle break into the grain bin and eat too much, they can die. Does that happen with hay?”


Yes you can feed cows 100% green tire life they will be just fine on the other hand if those very same cow finding large stores of a penny all of that that they want it will kill them. 
The OP does not seem to understand how all the stomachs of a cow work


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You need more coffee.  Then proof read.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Grr I did proof it but my phone poofs it !
Now I can’t change it !


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The point was you can feed a cow entirely on grain.
But once you have it on that feed it can break into the hay or especially a green pasture and flounder
Cows do not like a quick change of diet

So to answer the question yes that does happen with Hay.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Every now and again the wife and I eat out. Flounder is usually my choice, while she always orders the fried shrimp....Couldn't help myself. Topside


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

But have you ever floundered on founder ?


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Good to see you have a sense of humor, pay me back as soon as possible. Back on subject, grass fed cows develop unbalance utters.....kidding of course, I'm done.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I was discussing the common way cattle are fed in feedlots. Yes, you can feed less grain, or take measures to minimize disease, but to say in general that grain is good for cattle needs to be addressed. In general, grain feeding is a problem the way it is generally done. I understand why many don't want to hear this, or are offended.

You can read about this in the Merck Veterinary Manual, or google the subject.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/dige...se-in-large-animals/liver-abscesses-in-cattle



> Liver abscesses are seen in all ages and breeds of cattle wherever cattle are raised. They are most common in feedlot and dairy cattle fed rations that predispose to rumenitis. Cattle with liver abscesses have reduced production efficiency. Affected livers are condemned at slaughter, and adhesions to surrounding organs or the diaphragm may necessitate carcass trimming. Liver abscesses can also lead to disease syndromes associated with posterior vena caval thrombosis.
> ------
> Liver condemnation rates as high as 40% were recorded in a large survey of cattle slaughtered in the USA.
> ------
> ...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Grass fed cows do not have “utters.”


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Grass fed cows do not have “utters.”


But they might utter some strange things.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Foie gras anyone?


I love that stuff but I seldom pay the price they want for it.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

feedlot operators are family farmers too. It doesn't behoove family farmers to damage their merchandise, be they large corporate entities or hobby breeders. I have seen, firsthand, too many times, homesteading types do unspeakable damage to their livestock by following the latest from the blogosphere. They take these little nuggets of armchair animal husbandry and selective science, and although their intentions are pure, they deliver cruelty on a much grander scale than any factory farm. Case in point, the poor Jersey cow milking herself to death on grass, the sheep dying of worms that have been wormed with Shackley's Basic H soap. Chemkills are bad, M'kay. Grain is bad, M'kay. Shackley's basic H is soap for goodness sakes, soap is a chemical. Give the Jersey cow some grain, or milk a Pineywoods Cracker and get a teacup full of milk a day past what her calf drinks, which is what an animal can maintain on grass.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Here in Texas grass fed means grass finished. It is available at family run cattle operations and at the Farmers’ Markets.
> 
> It is a leaner beef.


Maybe. But since there are no standards or explanations, expect the term to me misused or misrepresented.

We are in the mist of great concern over our food. Few have the time to fully investigate what each term means. We get saltine crackers labeled "non-GMO". We get breaded chicken strips labeled, " Hormone free" We get milk labeled, " Antibiotic free" . We get costly steaks labeled, "Pasture Raised" We get "free range" commercial eggs.

This lack of standard or information has led to well intentioned first time cattle farmers to turn loose a few calves to an average, weedy, over grazed pasture and think they are on their way to both low cost beef production and an expectation of higher prices for the highly sought out grass finished beef.

To produce eatable grass fed beef requires superior quality lush pastures, ample high quality alfalfa hay. Lacking the grain, cattle need the "push" from quality forages to reach maximum growth and produce an eatable product. Even when everything is done correctly, your customer may not embrace the somewhat different cooking methods required and the somewhat different taste.

This anti-grain fad is really getting out of hand. Numerous Veterinarian publications are reporting health issues resulting to the swing away from grains to rice, rice hulls and other crop and animal byproducts in these new fad rations.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Since when is alfalfa or other leagumes considered grass fed?


Lol and there you have the label problem


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

If over feeding grain increases the number of abscesses in cattle livers, price beef livers and price well marbled rib eyes and get back with me.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Since when is alfalfa or other leagumes considered grass fed?


Since it started showing up in hay and pasture. Show me the "National Grass Fed Beef Standard".

Since Brazil was just allowed to import beef to the US, their thick, lush grasslands will be providing most of the Grass Fed beef being sold in the US in a little while.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

My western range friends would have me believe it requires a 30 mph cow to qualify as grass fed.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Consumers don’t have time to learn what is in their food? I am not believing that. 

They take time to watch television, play video games, and act badly on Facebook.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Liver price is due to low demand.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> .....and act badly on Facebook.


LOL, you gave me a good laugh to start the day, Alice. Thanks!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Consumers don’t have time to learn what is in their food? I am not believing that


Watch the confused consumers try to select eggs in the grocery store. The moral, ethical and economic balances are mind boggling. Dairy farmers stopped using bGH in dairy cows a decade ago, yet people will pay more for a jug of milk, or other dairy product that informs that this is from cows not given bGH. How many people buy "non-GMO" marked products, when none of the comparable products contain GMO? I wouldn't be surprised to see a package of carrots marked "Gluten Free". 


Alice In TX/MO said:


> Liver price is due to low demand.


I think that was exactly my point. Why would a rancher cut back on grain to preserve more livers and end up with a side of beef that grades lower due to reduced marbling and tenderness? While I'm not convinced grain increases liver disease, any increase is a cheap trade off for quality, corn fed beef. Yum.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yup.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

You can make beef off of just pasture, that will be higher quality than feedlot beef. It will take a lifetime of experience with genetics and pasture management, and will come at an incredibly high cost. The cost of developing info-graphics to post on Facebook and keeping up a decent blog alone would be mind boggling. (If you counted the time). These marketing steps are necessary to convince customers to overpay for minuscule quality advancements of your product, compared to commercial product. Minuscule increases in quality.

Hard to replicate. Often dependent on weather. New bull could ruin it all. You might convince four or five people to buy a freezer beef for some astronomical price, but the trick is keeping them coming back while you convince four or five more, until you can actually make enough money to justify what you are doing.

Often, without that level of commitment and expertise, you are going to produce shoe leather quality beef that doesn't leave the freezer fast enough to keep people coming back for more. Sometimes it takes people getting stuck with one in their own freezer to realize this.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Agree.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Years ago, a friend, former butcher for Kroger, told me that Kroger responded to customer requests for grass finished beef. After a few months, they dropped it. Partly due to slow sales, but mostly because less than 1% bought it twice.
Kroger tracks customer buying habits through the Preferred Customer tab. So they knew that while some wanted to try it, once was enough.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Pay extra, expect extra. It better deliver, and usually it doesn't. Some might believe the blogs and infographics and pay extra in the belief that they are saving the world. Here is the catch, for someone looking to supply this market, the most informed people, that are concerned with having control over their supply chain, knowing exactly where their food comes from, and that it is being raised in an ethical and sustainable manner, ARE ALREADY RAISING THEIR OWN!

To be entirely truthful, when you get into the "heritage" genetics, the cow that can look just as good on marginal pasture as tied to a grain bunker, and wean off her 300 pounder every three years or so, she is a horrible waste of resources, in terms of property tax money she has tied up, food, labor, etc. per pound of beef produced. Efficiency is the key to sustainability, and the heritage breeds are usually more close to a feral animal, or a wild progenitor, than the commercial breeds that have been carefully selected to feed the masses with the least waste of valuable resources. Things like early sexual maturity, high fecundity, willingness and ability to convert high density feed rations into meat, quickly and affordably, all of those things have been carefully selected, which usually means culling against the traits we often see in some breed that was feral on an island somewhere. 

Galloways are pretty neat. Would be a shame to loose them. They have genetics that could be used to improve traits if need be. (Frame moderation, feed conversion) Might even be more suited for smaller acreages or steeper terrain. Pineywoods Crackers, not so much, that is what all cattle are headed for if left to their own devices and those traits are the ones generally to be selected against. Slow growth doesn't always mean they don't eat as much, might mean their bodies don't demand that they eat as much, but a cow that takes forever to grow out even on lush pasture is a poor use of that pasture. 

Those are just some for instances off the top of my head to illustrate here. But black baldies are what works good on a feedlot, and feedlots are what feeds the world, in the most efficient manner that we have at our disposal at this time. Turn them loose out back and come back in two years looking for a calf to butcher, this is where your feral types might work better, but don't call it efficient food production, because it's not.

Maybe if your land is so marginal that you need some tiny, rack of bones, slow growing, unimproved beast to graze it, you should consider goats instead of cattle. That might be more efficient use of that pasture. 

Buffalo were all grass fed, but they also migrated. Migratory herds are not really a reality at this point in time. The most efficient way, at this point in time, is to migrate the nutrients to the grow out cattle, and corn is a teensy bit more efficient to migrate than say, prairie grass. It's simple physics really, has to do with density. Takes the same nutrients to make beef either way, but the less nutrient dense a food is, the more diesel it takes to transport it, so therefore it would cost more to do it that way, which is precisely why things are done the way they are.

If you can figure out a way to make migration channels through the cities and highway systems, we can go right back to bison production and do away with all of these refined cattle breeds and corn, but until you can do that, AND figure out a way to take the number of mouths we need to feed back to pre-columbian levels, then we are kind of stuck.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Outstanding analysis.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Grass fed beef has the correct ratio of omega 3's to omega 6's which is about 4 to 1......3's to 6's


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

ycanchu2 said:


> Grass fed beef has the correct ratio of omega 3's to omega 6's which is about 4 to 1......3's to 6's


That's what the info-graphics and blogs say, anyway. Calves on a feedlot eat a lot of grass. Some of it is ensiled, a lot of it is ground up in the ration, but it is there. Before they got to the feedlot, most of them spent the first six or eight months eating nothing but grass. 

Grass fed beef, the ones that are worth putting a knife to, eat a lot of grain. Because seed heads in grass are grain. The nice fat ones are going down the rolled out round bale pulling out mouthfulls of seedheads and spitting out stems for the ones they bully out of the way to come clean up. Pasture that will finish grass fed beef will have some seedheads present. As well as some legumes, which aren't exactly grass. Feedlot cattle get a fair amount of legumes in their rations too.

If it really is that worrisome, one can buy conjugated linoleic acid and omega 3 supplements at the same store that sells the yummy, tender grain fed beef, way cheaper than buying grass fed beef that might be tough as shoe leather from the hippies at the farmers market.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

I have eaten ribeye steaks from the grocery store that was tuff as shoe leather.....and i have no doubt it was grain fed. My girlfriend tells me how awful the hamburger meat is from the store is when I run out of hamburger meat to give her.
Also if you stress an animal too much before its killed ....the meat will be tough. No matter what its ate.
To each his own.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

ycanchu2 said:


> I have eaten ribeye steaks from the grocery store that was tuff as shoe leather.....and i have no doubt it was grain fed. My girlfriend tells me how awful the hamburger meat is from the store is when I run out of hamburger meat to give her.
> Also if you stress an animal too much before its killed ....the meat will be tough. No matter what its ate.
> To each his own.


I don't put much credence in the stress thing. I have eaten deer that were popped in the head under an apple tree, and deer that had been running for an hour in front of dogs. Rabbits taken from a box trap and conked over the head and rabbits in front of a pack of beagles. Bear with a bow that ran 25 yards bleeding out from the shot and bear that had run the mountains all day fighting with hounds. Cows killed at home with a well placed .22, and cows killed at home that were shot with a high powered rifle after a lengthy chase and a poorly placed .22. Cows that had hobbled around with a broken leg after being hit on the highway even. Stress might do something to them in a lab, but I've never been able to tell much difference. Of course, I know how to properly handle and age meat for optimum tenderness and flavor. A little time on the pole will undo any harm brought by stress.

Nutritional stress does more harm to meat quality than anything, and most back yard grass fed beef operations have significant opportunity to inflict nutritional stress on the animals. When the grass runs out and the meat cutter is unavailable, and people are too caught up on Omega fat ratios to dump a little grain when needed, they can ruin an animal that would have been great.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

We sell our beef as grass fed ( no government certification). During the winter months they have access to all the high quality hay they want, protein lick tubs, mineral blocks and the occasional breeders cubes just to keep them coming when we call. We finish them on alfalfa for 1 to 2 months depending on time of year and the pasture they have had and how well their body has filled out. The alfalfa we use is pasture in a bag by Chaffhaye. Only selling for animals a year now until mother nature provides our pastures with the needed water to support more animals. We keep a half for ourselves and sell the remaining 3 1/2 to repeat customers are always happy.


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## royB (Dec 15, 2004)

101pigs said:


> Yep. Less flavor and etc. I have seen some of this before all grass fed.


If you really grass feed and finish there is substantially more flavor, BUT you can't do it in the same time frame as a grain finished beef. Also, the hay had to be really high quality for finishing. I usually bought in alfalfa orchard grass mix from the midwest by truck for the finishing. Normal local hay for the cows over winter.

I held mine till at least 24 mths. and I had people swear I added something for flavor. 
The only thing they got besides grass or hay was minerals. With grass you have to wait for the fat to form around the tail head, then you can harvest them. I would sell the beef before it hit the cutting floor at premium prices.

As to the OP, too much grain is bad in lots of ways. Some grain, managed and a proper amount, is the norm for finishing a beef to put on the fat.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ycanchu2 said:


> I have eaten ribeye steaks from the grocery store that was tuff as shoe leather.....and i have no doubt it was grain fed. My girlfriend tells me how awful the hamburger meat is from the store is when I run out of hamburger meat to give her.
> Also if you stress an animal too much before its killed ....the meat will be tough. No matter what its ate.
> To each his own.


Nearly every worn out dairy cow gets eaten. Sort of unfair to set them as your standard measure of grain fed beef.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

It should be a known fact that all meat sold in the big chain stores is called "HOLSTEIN" although the label fails to tell you that. In other words dairy cows not meeting super dairy production standards, meet their maker and wrapped in cellophane.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

topside1 said:


> It should be a known fact that all meat sold in the big chain stores is called "HOLSTEIN" although the label fails to tell you that. In other words dairy cows not meeting super dairy production standards, meet their maker and wrapped in cellophane.


And also beef cull cows and slaughter bulls


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

topside1 said:


> It should be a known fact that all meat sold in the big chain stores is called "HOLSTEIN" although the label fails to tell you that. In other words dairy cows not meeting super dairy production standards, meet their maker and wrapped in cellophane.


Often times when we try to promote our products or our beliefs, we tend to overstate the argument. We see that when people are marketing organic fruits and vegetables. They make outlandish claims like "if it isn't organic, it has pesticides in it." Same for those marketing milk, that want to set their product apart by proclaiming theirs doesn't have bGH, when nearly all milk is produced from cows not treated with bGH.

So, with that in mind, I'll call BS on the assertion that all commercial beef is Holstein. That is clearly not true.
That they are mostly old dairy cows is also false.

Green Bay Dressed Beef is mostly lower quality older Holstein. Much of their product goes to processed products, like canned stew, meatballs, Lean Cuisine, TV dinners, etc. But there are also a few beef breeds.

JBS is a major slaughter facility in Michigan. They buy mostly Holstein steers fresh off feed lots. About 10% are Angus and other beef breeds.

Taylor buys lots of beef breed cattle that get processed in Pennsylvania. That beef goes to commercial grocery stores, too.

McDonalds imports boxes of bull meat to add to their domestically produced beef. They do this to reduce fat and add a different flavor.

Really not much different flavor between a 2 year old Angus steer and a 2 year old Holstein fed the same way.

Common sense dictates that all Angus beef will contain 10% old Angus cows and old Angus bulls.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Must be cold, windy, and snow covered in Michigan, where do you find the time?


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Apparently few people get it. Causing disease to save money or make money doesn't even occur to people to be an ethical issue. 

Haypoint:
"Why would a rancher cut back on grain to preserve more livers and end up with a side of beef that grades lower due to reduced marbling and tenderness? While I'm not convinced grain increases liver disease, any increase is a cheap trade off for quality, corn fed beef. Yum."

The degree of denial here is unbelievable. You don't believe the Merck Veterinary Manual on liver disease? Here's an article with feedlot veterinarians discussing liver abscesses and antibiotics. Why do you suppose feedlot cattle get liver abscesses and pasture cattle don't? Of course, the industry sees this as simply an economics issue, not a health or ethics issue.

https://feedlotmagazine.com/archive/archive/issues/200011/new_v8n6pg89article.html



> *Dr. Hall:* The A+ abscesses, the larger abscesses, do affect the bottom line. You're going to lose the liver. If that abscess ruptures during the process of evisceration, you're going to lose the heart, paunch, spleen, small intestine, lungs and other marketable parts. Right now I'd estimate about 10 to 12 percent of the abscesses that come through are open abscesses, which equals about $14 per head, possibly as much as $20 per head.
> 
> When you start to figure in your impact on cost of management, it isn't costing feeders anything -- right now. But it's definitely costing the packer. If he can figure a way to pass that cost on to the feedlot or owner, he will.
> 
> ...


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

topside1 said:


> It should be a known fact that all meat sold in the big chain stores is called "HOLSTEIN" although the label fails to tell you that. In other words dairy cows not meeting super dairy production standards, meet their maker and wrapped in cellophane.


Cull cows and bulls don't end up in the meat show case except as hamburger, bologna and hot dogs. There will be some on the shelf in canned chili, some will end up in processed steak products. They don't even go through the same slaughter facilities as fat cattle.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

DJ in WA said:


> Apparently few people get it. Causing disease to save money or make money doesn't even occur to people to be an ethical issue.
> 
> Haypoint:
> "Why would a rancher cut back on grain to preserve more livers and end up with a side of beef that grades lower due to reduced marbling and tenderness? While I'm not convinced grain increases liver disease, any increase is a cheap trade off for quality, corn fed beef. Yum."
> ...


It's just shy of midnight here so I've got the article open to read tomorrow. I don't have a big issue with grain-fed per se, I did see an article once how it helped calves develop their rumens more quickly. It's also an awesome tool to use when there are loose animals. Shake the feed bucket and the chickens, goats, yaks, etc come to you like the pied piper. And with no stress of running them down and both parties getting absolutely frustrated.

It is disconcerting to see all of the antibiotics fed to some feedlot cattle and other animals in extreme densities. 

As Haypoint said, we have selected animals over thousands of years to yield more milk or meat for human consumption. While I do not agree with the practice of broilers and meat turkeys who can't even breed or survive long, it is especially effective as the most product for the least cost.

I couldn't be a livestock business person. I like animals more than money, and I don't intend that as a slight, just my preference.


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## Windswept Hill (Nov 23, 2010)

You have to give them some grain otherwise how will they know what you want when you are standing there beckoning them to come by tapping on an empty bucket.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I was thinking of this thread and remembered other issues with feeding too much grain. Again, some grain is fine, but too much, as is commonly practiced in commercial herds, causes problems. That is why my thread title said "too much grain". I feed alittle grain to my cows, and of course, there are carbohydrates even in grass seed.

I mentioned the liver abscesses in feedlot cattle. There are also issues in dairy cattle, which now on average are culled after a few lactations. The biggest reasons are mastitis, reproductive problems, and lameness.

Major cause of lameness is laminitis, which is inflammation in the foot caused by acidosis caused by too much carbohydrate (concentrate), usually grain. All about economics - breed high producing cows that depend on high energy rations.



> https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/technical-information/animal-health-welfare/lameness/nutrition/challenges/#.XPiGt-_sbIU
> 
> The balance between the concentrate and fibre constituents of the diet and how they influence the pH of the rumen are the most pressing nutritional issues with regard to mobility, as rumenacidosis has been linked to increased mobility problems in nutritional studies.
> ------
> ...


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Windswept Hill said:


> You have to give them some grain otherwise how will they know what you want when you are standing there beckoning them to come by tapping on an empty bucket.


Simple, send out the herding dogs to fetch the cows?


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