# Expecting to live on your pension?



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

http://gardenserf.wordpress.com/201...-will-work-until-you-die-or-you-will-not-eat/

From my weekly blogcrawl I came across this news from the UK:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...0-under-pension-link-to-rising-lifespans.html

Essentially, in the UK due to "rising lifespans" they are going to push off the age at which public employees can collect their pensions by 12 months every 2 years, meaning that while those retiring today can collect pensions at around 66, those who are just starting in their government service won't be able to collect pensions until they are EIGHTY YEARS OLD.

While this is occurring in England today, it is a trend that is increasingly crossing the Atlantic and falling on our own shores as the money crunch continues.

Do you have your long term survival strategy worked out? Hope it doesn't depend on a check from the government.


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

I've been frugal all my life and have a very good nest egg built up. I have been retired now for 6 years and haven't even come close to touching it.

When SS first was introduced, the average lifespan was around 70 years so you would only collect for about 5 years, if that much. Today, the average lifespan for a woman is about 85 years, for men about 82 years and it's not unusual to live into the 90's. This is putting a real strain on the system, along with all the lawyers promising to get you your "deserved" benefits when you get a hangnail and can't (won't) work anymore.

SS and pensions are different things in this country. Most people today don't get a pension. Employers are requiring workers to contribute to their own 401-k pensions. It's going to be hard to depend on the government. Depend on yourself.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

suitcase_sally said:


> Today, the average lifespan for a woman is about 85 years, for men about 82 years and it's not unusual to live into the 90's.


Those numbers seem a little high. I thought they were about 5-7 years less. Usually life span numbers that high are *overall expectation of life at birth*. So kids born today will on average live that long, but those born a few decades ago will on average have a shorter life span.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

We have 401k's, rental property and we know that we will eventually inherit (though that isn't a part of our retirement plan!) If there is such a thing as Social Security when we are ready to retire, then we will probably do what my parents have always done... They just deposit the SS checks into their savings account. They have never used the money because they have never relied upon it.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Imho, the only pension you can bet your life on, is the one you can walk out and check on, in person.

One must be a complete optimist, to believe that 'paper' investments, SS, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, 401ks, distant real estate, etc., will provide an income, if things keep going south.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

texican said:


> Imho, the only pension you can bet your life on, is the one you can walk out and check on, in person.
> 
> One must be a complete optimist, to believe that 'paper' investments, SS, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, 401ks, distant real estate, etc., will provide an income, if things keep going south.


I agree.....especially the farther out from "retirement" you are. Our plan involves her pension ( teacher ), social security, paper investments of our own, metals, and paid for land we farm/garden....figuring at least a couple of them will hold their value.

I think one of the most secure things you can go into retirement with is to be debt free, and have a piece of land that will produce some of your needs.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You know the ones I pity?

The ones who sit there oblivious to it all ... just working, working working. They trust their politician. They trust their government. They think all the money they've paid in is just sitting there waiting on them in a nice tidy little lock box. 

I run into them every now and then. It's easy to see on their faces. That look of shock. They thought they'd be golfing, fishing, or just hanging out on the couch watching Vanna spin those letters with the wife. And now they find themselves stuck working ANOTHER 9-5 job, only this one has no benefits, long hours, low pay, and they have to answer to some young punk named "Skip". Usually when I run into them they're sacking my groceries, or welcoming me to Walmart.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

texican said:


> Imho, the only pension you can bet your life on, is the one you can walk out and check on, in person.
> 
> One must be a complete optimist, to believe that 'paper' investments, SS, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, 401ks, distant real estate, etc., will provide an income, if things keep going south.


Well said.:thumb:

The best pension in my opinion is to keep learning new skills and try to stay healthy.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> You know the ones I pity?
> 
> The ones who sit there oblivious to it all ... just working, working working. They trust their politician. They trust their government. They think all the money they've paid in is just sitting there waiting on them in a nice tidy little lock box.
> 
> I run into them every now and then. It's easy to see on their faces. That look of shock. They thought they'd be golfing, fishing, or just hanging out on the couch watching Vanna spin those letters with the wife. And now they find themselves stuck working ANOTHER 9-5 job, only this one has no benefits, long hours, low pay, and they have to answer to some young punk named "Skip". Usually when I run into them they're sacking my groceries, or welcoming me to Walmart.


 Wow, you've just described my older brother.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My parents are federa; and state retirees....and though they have at times squandered lots of money with the Jonesy lifestyle....my preaching is being heard. 

They have decided to plant both gardens and paid off their house last week....news of global unrest has cemented for them what I had been saying...a new pantry was built and being stocked...with the help of coupons....and the deer are being counted. Being an 1hr away from any Walmart, having a running stream, woods, and pasture in those 50 acres will serve us all well....


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

I am building "job security" for my retirement. Planting fruit trees and building garden soil. Keeping my poultry breeding stock going and saving my seeds. Paid off the house and vehicles..so only have one CC not yet paid off.

I have a small 401 that will keep my taxes paid(most likely for as long as I can work my land). I don't plan on it but it must be considered..my elderly mom has gathered a "legacy" for us (4 children) that will go a long way to keeping the lights turned on.

I never had a lot of money so I never became "spendy"..I know, I know! That doesn't stop some folks but I won't make a bill I can't pay.

In the end tho if everything falls apart there is still "my tree".....in my own time by my own choice.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Ernie said:


> You know the ones I pity?
> 
> The ones who sit there oblivious to it all ... just working, working working. They trust their politician. They trust their government. They think all the money they've paid in is just sitting there waiting on them in a nice tidy little lock box.
> 
> I run into them every now and then. It's easy to see on their faces. That look of shock. They thought they'd be golfing, fishing, or just hanging out on the couch watching Vanna spin those letters with the wife. And now they find themselves stuck working ANOTHER 9-5 job, only this one has no benefits, long hours, low pay, and they have to answer to some young punk named "Skip". Usually when I run into them they're sacking my groceries, or welcoming me to Walmart.


Some of those walmart greeters or sackers do it because they have nothing else to do but sit around all day..

My father was thinking about doing that, he retired with a good pension years ago, went back to work and worked until he was 75 just because he couldn't stand retirement and worked that job until couldn't physically handle it any more, and after that he seriously considered a job at Home Depot or something just so he would have something productive to do most of the time.

Like it or not we are as a country living to older ages, and the age at which we can get SSI will be rising along with it, as well as the cap on payroll taxes rising as incomes rise.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Txrider said:


> Some of those walmart greeters or sackers do it because they have nothing else to do but sit around all day..
> 
> My father was thinking about doing that, he retired with a good pension years ago, went back to work and worked until he was 75 just because he couldn't stand retirement and worked that job until couldn't physically handle it any more, and after that he seriously considered a job at Home Depot or something just so he would have something productive to do most of the time.
> 
> Like it or not we are as a country living to older ages, and the age at which we can get SSI will be rising along with it, as well as the cap on payroll taxes rising as incomes rise.


That's the saddest thing I've ever heard.

Imagine being so trained, conditioned, and indoctrinated that you can't do anything else other than follow orders at a salary job.


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

Explorer said:


> Those numbers seem a little high. I thought they were about 5-7 years less. Usually life span numbers that high are *overall expectation of life at birth*. So kids born today will on average live that long, but those born a few decades ago will on average have a shorter life span.


I'm an optimist. :teehee:

This is a lot of information, but a good read:

http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Not planning on retiring. Tried that already, got bored fast. Self-employed now, so no pension. Don't expect to ever see a penny from SS. But I'll be OK.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Ernie said:


> That's the saddest thing I've ever heard.
> 
> "Imagine being so trained, conditioned, and indoctrinated that you can't do anything else other than follow orders at a salary job".


It isn't about following orders it is about feeling needed and staying active out side your home and tv. It is about interacting with people. It is about continuing to feel "alive" and perhaps..needed. JMO and 3 cents worth.

Too many folks retire, sit down and die. It just happened at the plant where I work. A lady with mobility issues was laid off for 3 weeks and died. Current medical thoughts run from congestive heart failure(not moving allowing fluids to build) and throwing a clot. Regardless of medically WHY, the feeling is that had she stayed active she would not have died.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

My pension is a rooster, crowing at about 5 in the a.m.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> My pension is a rooster, crowing at about 5 in the a.m.


I believe in long term investments. Fruit and nut trees that yield in abundance. When I get too old to reach up and harvest then I'll bend over and pick up what falls on the ground. When I get too old to do that then well, I guess it's time to die.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Kids are a great retirement plan, too. I don't plan on having any, but those of you who do should be well-taken care of if you raise them right.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I just wanna strangle that rooster.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner said:


> I just wanna strangle that rooster.


stewed chicken and dumplings or 
chicken soup?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Funny you should ask. 

We've found that if we let a tough old rooster, or hen, "age" for a few days in cold outdoor temps or the fridge, the muscles tend to relax and you can bread and fry the critter with surprisingly positive results.

Of course, that is from my perspective, and not the rooster's.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

LOL I have 16 roosters....about 20ft from my bdrm window...I hear them but I don't lose any sleep....I wait for the high schoolers to be out the door and the Dad to be on his way to work before I get coffee and send the 10 yo out to quiet the roosters with breakfast

I'm milking by 8am and inside by nine for more coffee and housework and schooling...these unemployed people with too much time need to come and help me do in a few roosters!


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

What is really sad about the whole SS/medicare discussion is when you talk to most seniors about it. They feel they paid in to it and they are entitled to it. They could care less that I did too! I explain that I'm sorry, but they were lied to by politicians and that there is not enough money there for everyone to get the current level of benefits. I explain that for them to get the same pay out at the same age, me and my kids will have much higher ages and much less pay out. They could care less! Their attitude is "so what, that's you and your kids problem". It is so sad, they were on watch for the last 50 years and let it fall apart. Now, their only concern is getting theirs and letting everyone after them get less. Kinda reminds me of the UAW!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I have a rooster who crows at all hours. Midnight, 2am, 3am ... don't matter. He's out there crowing. He's a fine old bird though and after all the times he's saved those hens I'll probably give him a warrior's funeral instead of time in the slow cooker.


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## SmokeEater2 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I have a rooster who crows at all hours. Midnight, 2am, 3am ... don't matter. He's out there crowing. He's a fine old bird though and after all the times he's saved those hens I'll probably give him a warrior's funeral instead of time in the slow cooker.




I've got a Buff Orpington rooster like that. He annoyed me enough when he was first learning how to crow that I named him "E.C." which is short for Extra Crispy but, he takes good care of the flock and he's earned my respect. When he dies he'll go into the compost pile and become part of the farm forever. Good ol' bird.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Mine is "Stonewall Jackson". All of the roosters we decide to keep are named after Confederate generals. The ones we intend to eat are named after Yankees. So far we've butchered and eaten THREE "Lincolns".

This one has some unusual behavior. Or at least I've never observed it in any of my roosters before. When he finds food on the ground, he'll "call" the hens over and stand there keeping watch over them protectively while they eat. I've seen him pluck giant green tomato hornworms out of my garden and carry them over to place them on the ground in front of his favorite hens. He'll stand out in the open giving the warning call whenever he spies a hawk or a fox and won't break for cover until the last hen has retreated. He's gentle with them and never has shown aggression towards humans.

Fine ol' bird. He's 4 years old now, so I need to be looking for a replacement, but he'll walk my farm until he dies of natural causes. No way I'm eating Old Stonewall.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

edjewcollins said:


> What is really sad about the whole SS/medicare discussion is when you talk to most seniors about it. They feel they paid in to it and they are entitled to it. They could care less that I did too! I explain that I'm sorry, but they were lied to by politicians and that there is not enough money there for everyone to get the current level of benefits. I explain that for them to get the same pay out at the same age, me and my kids will have much higher ages and much less pay out. They could care less! Their attitude is "so what, that's you and your kids problem". It is so sad, they were on watch for the last 50 years and let it fall apart. Now, their only concern is getting theirs and letting everyone after them get less. Kinda reminds me of the UAW!



In truth, there was a revamping of Social Security benefit amounts and entitlements in the 1980's. So the seniors you criticize so easily have already had their benefits rates reduced while the amount they paid in FICA increased. 
Social Security has been "adjusted" a number of times- some times increasing eligibilty (election years,) sometimes reducing it. It is always a balancing act.
Actually those changes were pretty substantial. It's just in the last 20 or so years that someone has be asleep at the switch. Your watch maybe?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

edjewcollins said:


> What is really sad about the whole SS/medicare discussion is when you talk to most seniors about it. They feel they paid in to it and they are entitled to it. They could care less that I did too! I explain that I'm sorry, but they were lied to by politicians and that there is not enough money there for everyone to get the current level of benefits. I explain that for them to get the same pay out at the same age, me and my kids will have much higher ages and much less pay out. They could care less! Their attitude is "so what, that's you and your kids problem". It is so sad, they were on watch for the last 50 years and let it fall apart. Now, their only concern is getting theirs and letting everyone after them get less. Kinda reminds me of the UAW!


It's remarkable that the seniors you talk to have that attitude. The main reason for my outrage is specifically FOR the coming generations who are going to be cheated. 

Are these wealthy seniors that you're talking to? I can understand how those with a meager pension and SS income would not want to have to give up any more of their income. Besides inflation eating away at it, any cuts would force them into dependency for their basic needs, which most seniors abhor.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

It's the same here edge. Doesn't matter what their income level is, they all believe they earned it and they don't care who has to pay for it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

well, for the last two years, the deductions have gone up on my family's SS and the SS has not even had the 2% "cost of living" increase.

And they did pay in in good faith. When they did, the fund had not been appropriated for other government use, so they fulfilled their portion of the mandatory contract - but the government has played with the conditions of the contract and that is what will cause you, me, our children and friends to be messed up. So, it's not greedy seniors, it's slick government that has caused these conditions.

And it bumbs me out knowing that money is being taken out of my paycheck every time, and I really have little confidence of getting it back later.
So, I (and probably, you) need to work out how we are going to exist without it, or if we get it - a very reduced amount or an amount that doesn't meet inflation.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

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## Old_Grey_Mare (Feb 18, 2006)

Social security is not an "entitlement". It was created as an insurance and we all paid into it with expectations of a return. It is not our fault that our .gov took the money and spent it.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

ChristyACB said:


> That is very desirable behavior! Have you tried...or been successful...at breeding in that behavior reliably?
> 
> I know I'd be interested in such a useful manbird when the time comes. Many probably would.


I have given away eggs for hatching, but as of yet I don't know the results. Of the three male offspring we matured from him, none of them were quite as bad as some of the hatchery roosters we had, but none had his qualities either. However there is a difference between being a dominant rooster and a subordinate one, so I don't know how they would have been if his bravery in the face of danger had caused him to give the last full measure of devotion.

This year's goal is to hatch out at least one good replacement for him and to find some hens that will go broody and raise their own young. I feel like we have about half of the survival chicken thing going, but we're still missing the female half.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Goodness, Ernie, if you lived closer I'd give you some broody hens. I have at least half a dozen setting at any given time. Sometimes I just keep taking away the eggs, sometimes I let them hatch.

You can see good rooster behavior in the brooder. That is where I start culling for temperament. Most of my roos act like Stonewall. The rest act like chicken and dumplings.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Old_Grey_Mare said:


> Social security is not an "entitlement". It was created as an insurance and we all paid into it with expectations of a return. It is not our fault that our .gov took the money and spent it.


 I absolutely agree! Having said that, at this point it is an entitlement and let me explain why. There is no trust fund. Every dollar we pay out to people for SS or MC comes from general tax revenue in the general fund. FICA is nothing more than another tax. Many people call SS insurance but in realty it is not. Insurance companies have to maintain a reserve by which they can pay in the event of a claim. If they don't have the money to cover claims they are insolvent and go out of business or they are assisted by state gaurantee funds which help cover the claims of insurance companies in financial crisis. The Federal Government has no such reserve and has no one to bail it out(except us) in the event of a financial crisis (like we're having now). Another difference is the contract. When you get a policy you sign a contract with the agent. It is a legally binding contract and if they break it you can sue them. The Feds have changed the terms of SS, modified benefits and premiums and we can't sue them.
It is also an entitlement in this respect. If you had an "insurance policy" and you died, your beneficiary would get the benefit. How many people do you know that died without ever getting a dime of SS or Medicare? I know many. So, their money ends up going to fund other peoples benefits. IMHO, that is no different than when the government takes my tax dollars and gives people welfare. I AM NOT CALLING YOU A WELFARE RECIPIENT! Please understand that!
I guess my point in all this is that is is infinately better for the government NOT to be involved in social engineering. For 2 reasons: first, they screw up everything they touch. Second, they are about the most inefficient entity on the planet. 
I know seniors or soon to be seniors were promised this, but so was I. Iam 44, but I've been paying in for 30 years already! I find it disturbing that many of my elderly fellow americans feel that just because of their age they should not be part of the collective pain of fixing the system. We were all lied to, yes. But we are all also responsible for solving the problem. Last I heard, the right to happiness didn't increase just because of a persons age, nuff said.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

AngieM2 said:


> And it bumbs me out knowing that money is being taken out of my paycheck every time, and I really have little confidence of getting it back later.
> So, I (and probably, you) need to work out how we are going to exist without it, or if we get it - a very reduced amount or an amount that doesn't meet inflation.


I have been getting SS eight years (early at 62) and have got every penny I paid in working 40+ years plus quite a bit extra.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Hello- there is a trust fund but unfortunately Congress demanded that the trust fund be in government bonds. So the trust fund has bonds on the order of 23 billion dollars ahead. In otherwords the government borrowed the trust fund money and used it for other things- this is part of the debt that everyone keeps hearing about.
So basically Social Security is solvent as it will recoup the money owed it from the government and the people who paid into it have more than paid enough for the "baby boom" retirement. The nonsense about the "trust fund being stolen" was simply an accounting change that Ronald Reagan to allow the Social Security surplus to be put on the books as a credit to off set the mounting debt caused by his increasing spending while decreasing taxes. 
The truth is that the people (yes you) did not pay for the things your Congressmen spent on other things from local pork to wars. Instead of paying for these things by getting the money in taxes, Congress gave tax breaks so people would re-elect them.
If you want to keep wanting to blame someone, look in the mirror. You (the American public) were satisifed enough to keep re-electing these people like bobble head dolls. As long as you felt solvent personally, you were willing to let Congress have it's way even though the least look into the future should have scared the heck out of you.
So, if you really want to blame someone, it is not the people paying into Social Security. As the saying goes, we have seen the enemy and it is us. All of us.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

where I want to said:


> In truth, there was a revamping of Social Security benefit amounts and entitlements in the 1980's. So the seniors you criticize so easily have already had their benefits rates reduced while the amount they paid in FICA increased.
> Social Security has been "adjusted" a number of times- some times increasing eligibilty (election years,) sometimes reducing it. It is always a balancing act.
> Actually those changes were pretty substantial. It's just in the last 20 or so years that someone has be asleep at the switch. Your watch maybe?


 All those revamps and changes apply to me as well. The difference now is that whenever I talk about the issue with a senior they feel it is not their problem. I have even had seniors tell me that they don't care if their kids or grandkids have to receive less/pay more as long as they don't have to! Pretty sh**ty attitude from the "Wealthiest generation to ever walk the Earth" if you ask me. 
You are absolutely right, it is my watch. I have expressed, on my watch, to everyone that would listen, that there should be NO social engineering by federal or state governments. Everyone that would listen includes all my elected officials. I have written editorals to papers as well on this. Unfortunately, most of my generation has bought in to the trend your generation did: we need the government to solve our problems and give us direction. 
I also believe there should be no taxation other than a state sales tax. There should be no federal taxes. No property taxes. Things should be like they used to be: everyone takes care of their own family, neighbors and community. People get charity if they need a helping hand, not a hand out. There will be ho-bos and vagrants, so what? People that work to improve their situation or truly incapacitated people will get that helping hand and lazy people won't. Sounds like heaven to me!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

OK no taxes. But that will only increase the debt like Reagan. What you should be saying is not more spending unless the taxes cover it.
So, beside Social Security, where do you want to reduce the spending? Figure it out then picket the welfare office or sound like a selfish so-and-so when the local news paper publishes one of those "poor person needs more money" stories. Or tell a teacher to her face that she should work more hours to get they pay she does. Or whatever else you feel is needed. Become the squeaky wheel where it counts. Complaining to the one group who has paid their way is a waste of time.
Heaven forbid you return whatever the government sends your way as you didn;t feel you paid for it.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Hello- there is a trust fund but unfortunately Congress demanded that the trust fund be in government bonds. So the trust fund has bonds on the order of 23 billion dollars ahead. In otherwords the government borrowed the trust fund money and used it for other things- this is part of the debt that everyone keeps hearing about.
> So basically Social Security is solvent as it will recoup the money owed it from the government and the people who paid into it have more than paid enough for the "baby boom" retirement. The nonsense about the "trust fund being stolen" was simply an accounting change that Ronald Reagan to allow the Social Security surplus to be put on the books as a credit to off set the mounting debt caused by his increasing spending while decreasing taxes.
> The truth is that the people (yes you) did not pay for the things your Congressmen spent on other things from local pork to wars. Instead of paying for these things by getting the money in taxes, Congress gave tax breaks so people would re-elect them.
> If you want to keep wanting to blame someone, look in the mirror. You (the American public) were satisifed enough to keep re-electing these people like bobble head dolls. As long as you felt solvent personally, you were willing to let Congress have it's way even though the least look into the future should have scared the heck out of you.
> So, if you really want to blame someone, it is not the people paying into Social Security. As the saying goes, we have seen the enemy and it is us. All of us.


 Are you serious? So you think the Government bonds from the government that is 14 Trillion in the hole will be paying those back? Really? Lets not mention the additional 80 to 120 trillion in unfunded liabilities it has. You need to tell me if your serious because you would be the first person I've ever conversed with that actually thinks there is ANY possibility of that ever happening.
You are right that we get the government we allow. The problem is that too many people want what that corrupted devil's playground has to offer!


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

where I want to said:


> OK no taxes. But that will only increase the debt like Reagan. What you should be saying is not more spending unless the taxes cover it.
> So, beside Social Security, where do you want to reduce the spending? Figure it out then picket the welfare office or sound like a selfish so-and-so when the local news paper publishes one of those "poor person needs more money" stories. Or tell a teacher to her face that she should work more hours to get they pay she does. Or whatever else you feel is needed. Become the squeaky wheel where it counts. Complaining to the one group who has paid their way is a waste of time.
> Heaven forbid you return whatever the government sends your way as you didn;t feel you paid for it.


Trust me, I am the squeeky wheel and I have told teachers to their face they don't earn their pay/benefits. Teacher here average $70,000 for 8 months work, have a pension and cadillac medical and pay nothing for it. Michigan has even gotton so ridiculous that the state civil service commision wanted state employee health care to apply to any person living with a state employee and their children! We're not talking gay people here we're talking ANYONE that lives with them and their kids! I have also told the school board and several principals and the local paper. I have been to Washington to protest these things as well. I have gone to the coffee hours at the senior centers, I was the youngest one there. None of those folks were asking asking the senator or congressman to spend less money like I was, they were asking for more benefits! I have all my elected officials, including the Governor, programmed in to my phone and call to express my opinion regularly. I have actually been thinking about the picketing thing more often lately. What has any of that gotten me other than personal satisfaction? Do you take it to that level? Probably not and that would be the problem. One other thing, what exactly should I send back to the government? I get nothing from them.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

In actuality, I do think that current beneficiaries will get a large share of what was promised. There may be some minor tinkering. The only thing that will stop it is a massive collapse of the US altogether. Which you may or may not think is a good idea. I think a wish like that is the last thing any sane person would want. Instant North Korea.
I think what will hopefully happen is that the future benefits will be whittled down some while a bit more is paid in. This is what happened in the 1980's and early 1990's. 
Reagan climbed on the same "cut-em-off-at-the knees" philosophy but the minute some poor slob ended up on the news or wrote him he gave in. The only result of his (and Congress's) attempt to rein in eligibilty was years of lawsuits that ended up loosening eligibility.
Don't shoot me- that is what happened and what is likely to happen again. I do write to the news and the Congressmen, vote for the ficallly responsible whether Democrate or Republican. The trouble is that I can hardly find a reasonable politician anymore. All noise and no work.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh- and you do get. You drive on government streets, are protected by the government military, send children to government subsidized schools, get food inspected, drive over government bridges, didn't have to support your elderly parents, etc etc etc.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

You know what I really think is likely- that our loving politicians will quietly allow inflation to ramp up as a matter of policy. This gets rid of so many problems- like the upside down mortgage, the benefits paid out, the debt owed. I think that the formula for COLAs for Social Security will be more or less subtley adjusted to be less than a true COLA. And no- this is not the no COLA thing going on right now.
People who are still working might cope fairly well as salaries will go up. Those who are not eligible for a good COLA on benefits will suffer. 
I just wonder if those little financial whizzes really are a good as they think. This could get out of hand really easily.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I shouldn't have put it so personally- we all get.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

So, 
How do we adapt and survive?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I'm thinking, to adapt and survive, I need to plant even more fruit trees, stock the lake this summer with a couple thousand more head of catfish, plant some 'hybrid' oaks down in my bottomland forest where some old trees have been blown over.

I've already made some 'payments' this spring into my "401K" plan (with an extra dozen fig trees and a dedicated berry [blueberry, raspberry, and blackberry] patch)... some major investments will make me feel more secure.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Inflation has already done it's work.

Look up what the dollars contributed to the cause were buying in the fifties and sixties,
then look what the dollars people are "getting back" are buying now.

That ever loving nest egg has been reduced by 90% if not stolen outright.

And people keep defending the scam...the intended, deliberate, planned-long-and-hard-for scam.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

texican said:


> I'm thinking, to adapt and survive, I need to plant even more fruit trees, stock the lake this summer with a couple thousand more head of catfish, plant some 'hybrid' oaks down in my bottomland forest where some old trees have been blown over.
> 
> I've already made some 'payments' this spring into my "401K" plan (with an extra dozen fig trees and a dedicated berry [blueberry, raspberry, and blackberry] patch)... some major investments will make me feel more secure.


That type of thinking is a major part of our "retirement" plan as well. 

Planted more apple trees two years ago, putting in more solar panels this year ( enough so they will now start paying us a check, reversing a 30 year trend where I paid them....ahahaaa ), that type of thing.

I think investing in your own place is one of the best things you can do.....as long as it's a TRUE, money returning, investment, versus something like a swimming pool or granite counter tops.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Old_Grey_Mare said:


> Social security is not an "entitlement". It was created as an insurance and we all paid into it with expectations of a return. It is not our fault that our .gov took the money and spent it.


Of course it is your fault. You voted in the politicians that took the money that accumulated from the 1986 "reform" and spent it on you. It's not like the politicians you elected did it in secret. Now the baby boomer generation (and older) wants to push the costs of their folly onto a younger generation.

It's a terrible shame.

Mike


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> So,
> How do we adapt and survive?


You die early. Seriously, back in the day most folks died early. Without decent medical care even a minor problem could be life threatening. So the chances of one having a stroke and spending 10+ years drooling staring into space was pretty slim. The Amish and Mennonite community do not collect Social Security insurance nor any other forms of assistance. They also have multi-generational homes. And they don't believe in life extending operations, or medicines. As a consequence they don't live as long. 

Having apple trees and chickens are great assuming you never get frail, don't get some sort of dementia, or some other debilitating disease. I doubt most folks on here would be considered rich, the life of a full-time homesteader or farmer rarely leads to the path of riches. Because of inflation there is no way one could save up enough money during their lifetime living near the poverty line to carry them through retirement. 

Realistically if one doesn't have children that are willing to take care of them when they are older most folks without S.S are screwed. My biggest fear is losing my marbles when I am older, an able body means nothing without an able mind. 

My own plan is to make a simple and small one story house when I get older. All the buildings will be built with low maintenance in mind, meaning all steel roofs, metal or vinyl siding. I've noticed with a lot of elderly people usually their house and outbuildings start falling apart. Not enough money to pay someone else to fix it but not able bodied enough to fix it themselves. I plan on working till I die (hopefully) since I will not have any children to lean back on if I ever get to the point of not being able to take care of myself. If I can't work, in a world without safety nets, it is a scary thought. Apple trees won't help me out of bed in the morning, and chickens won't get my mail for me or run me into town if I can no longer drive. 

When you are old everything becomes a challenge and more dangerous. Heck even getting the mail can be dangerous! There is an old woman (almost 92 years old) that still lives in her home across from mine. About a week ago I came home to a frightful sight. The poor old woman had fallen trying to get her mail and could't get back up. Temps were in the teens. I got out of the car and had a heck of a time getting her back to the house. She couldn't get up the steps so I wound up grabbing her a chair and set her in the chair. I then got the car and put her in there although it took a long time to do so. Ran her in the hospital, come to find out she broke her tibula clean through  Strangely nothing appeared to be broke nor did the lady think anything was broke either.

The lady has S.S and is on Medicare. I shudder to think what will happen to folks like those when it ceases to exist.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Ernie said:


> That's the saddest thing I've ever heard.
> 
> Imagine being so trained, conditioned, and indoctrinated that you can't do anything else other than follow orders at a salary job.


Not sad at all, he worked for the government from the time he got out of the military until he retired.. For the FAA.. Started as a technician and ended up managing all the facilities for an FAA region in Texas.

He retired, almost had a heart attack, had triple bypass surgery, then Raytheon offered a job doing two weeks stints moving outdated radar and and communications gear from larger airports down to smaller regional airports that needed them and so forth down the line..

Him and mom bought a big cummins diesel pickup, a 45 ft fifth wheel trailer, and spent the next years traveling the nation, two weeks at a spot, all 50 states and puerto rico, making about double the salary he made for the FAA. He was narmally paired up with another FAA retiree, who also pulled a travel trailer from job to job. They travelled this way for years, getting well paid for it.

When he got too old to do it anymore, they bought about 10 acres out in the country between two beautiful state parks here in Texas and built a house and retired for good. He was just thinking about taking a silly job in the little town nearby to keep active after 80.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Txrider said:


> When he got too old to do it anymore, they bought about 10 acres out in the country between two beautiful state parks here in Texas and built a house and retired for good. He was just thinking about taking a silly job in the little town nearby to keep active after 80.


Goodness, I would think taking care of that 10 acres would be enough to keep him active. Between clearing brush, maintaining gardens, mowing and tending animals, it sure keeps us busy.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

AngieM2 said:


> So,
> How do we adapt and survive?


I love how you bring things back to survival after they go crazy into politics. I'm on a retirement plan like Texican and TnAndy, investing in fruit and nut trees, and planning on eventually adding alternative energy on a larger scale than I have now. I'm also investing in my health so I will hopefully stay able-bodied and clear-minded until I die. But I also have a backup plans. I don't ever plan to have kids to take care of me, but I'm confident I'll be OK. I have a great great aunt who never married or had kids and is still going strong at almost 102 years old. She never made a lot of money, but she saved carefully and has enough to last her another five years, not including SS. If she lives longer than that, she has lots of nieces and nephews who will without a doubt help her if she needs it. I think that's the way it should be. Before big government came along, you would plan to take care of yourself, and your family/church/community was the safety net. Many ethnic groups still operate that way to some degree and I find that extremely admirable.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Goodness, Ernie, if you lived closer I'd give you some broody hens. I have at least half a dozen setting at any given time. Sometimes I just keep taking away the eggs, sometimes I let them hatch.
> 
> You can see good rooster behavior in the brooder. That is where I start culling for temperament. Most of my roos act like Stonewall. The rest act like chicken and dumplings.


My roos do the same too....I see it more as a "I might get lucky" move than anything....I have some awesome roos...which is why I haven't been so anxious to do them in...we have a lot of Eagles, Hawks and another that looks like an eagle that love to prey on my flock...haven't lost one yet to the buzzards! and if I do it'll be a rooster more than likely...I've seen them take it from a stray dog more than once.

And Ernie please do name a roo Gideon Pillow....he's kin to my husband...though you might find that his vanity and indecisiveness and inability to fight effectively makes him suitable for the slow cooker...eep:


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

The dude who was thinking of getting the job in Walmart, kind of got trashed here. news flash not everyone enjoys working in a garden by themselves, some people enjoy being around others. I am not necessarily one I may go a week here on the farm and not see a soul, but heck I sure don't want to judge how someone else wants to live. I have enough to keep me occupied with my own business.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

ryanthomas said:


> I love how you bring things back to survival after they go crazy into politics. I'm on a retirement plan like Texican and TnAndy, investing in fruit and nut trees, and planning on eventually adding alternative energy on a larger scale than I have now. I'm also investing in my health so I will hopefully stay able-bodied and clear-minded until I die. But I also have a backup plans. I don't ever plan to have kids to take care of me, but I'm confident I'll be OK. I have a great great aunt who never married or had kids and is still going strong at almost 102 years old. She never made a lot of money, but she saved carefully and has enough to last her another five years, not including SS. If she lives longer than that, she has lots of nieces and nephews who will without a doubt help her if she needs it. I think that's the way it should be. Before big government came along, you would plan to take care of yourself, and your family/church/community was the safety net. Many ethnic groups still operate that way to some degree and I find that extremely admirable.


Plus 1 more :thumb:


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## hsmom2four (Oct 13, 2008)

where I want to said:


> Oh- and you do get. You drive on government streets, are protected by the government military, send children to government subsidized schools, get food inspected, drive over government bridges, didn't have to support your elderly parents, etc etc etc.


Well, I guess I don't fit into that category because my children are homeschooled and I do support my husbands elderly mother because she doesn't get enough in SS to pay for her own place. My oldest dd does go to a public university that we also pay dearly for (no govt backed loans here--cash all the way!)

I'm self employed so I pay twice as much SS taxes as everyone else plus income taxes. All those roads and bridges you are speaking of are supposed to be taken care of with sales tax on gas and regular sales tax. Not to mention that sales tax and property tax is supposed to take care of the schools in my area. I'll never see a penny of SS (I'm 40) so I do feel that I'm paying so other people can have it right now. I'd rather have the 5K that I paid in this year back in my own pocket to invest in preps for the future or pay down the mortgage. My father died at the age of 59. He paid in the max amount pretty much all the years he worked and isn't getting it. My mom is getting the widow's bennys right now but then she has to start drawing on her own next year. 

I'm sorry but you just don't make any sense.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

We all are getting benefits from the government in one form or another. 

As for me, if they would like to refund all the money we paid into the SS fund and are still paying in which really doesn't bother me, plus what the employers paid in as well I'd take it. We could invest how we see fit. The problem is the income cap and that not everyone has paid into the SS system. Too many different pension plans that drew off moneys that should have gone into the pot.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Oh- and you do get. You drive on government streets, are protected by the government military, send children to government subsidized schools, get food inspected, drive over government bridges, didn't have to support your elderly parents, etc etc etc.


I'll address in order. I do drive on government streets which could be funded by the STATE sales tax I mentioned earlier. I am currently protected by a military who's primary role of late is liberating and rebuilding Muslim countries and not doing alot of protecting me. The military, and the federal government as a whole, used to be funded by tariffs on imported goods and could be again. I do send my kids to government schools but would prefer to not pay school taxes and send my kids to a private school where they would get a better education for less money. As for food being inspected, let producers pay private companies to inspect their food and build the cost in to the food like it should be. Uninspected food could still be sold, but buyer beware. If someone sold you inspected food that made you sick, take them to civil court. As for bridges, see roads above. Supporting elderly, my Mom died at 54 and never got SS. My dad is alive and has a private pension. He also gets SS, but honestly, if he didn't plan for retirement and ended up poor shame on him. I would not let him starve, freeze or go naked, but I wouldn,t be feeding him steak 3 time a week either.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Disabled Vet. 100% reliant on taxpayers for income. Any suggestions?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

time said:


> Disabled Vet. 100% reliant on taxpayers for income. Any suggestions?


Take up woodworking.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

time said:


> Disabled Vet. 100% reliant on taxpayers for income. Any suggestions?


THANK YOU for your service !


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Take up woodworking.


wittling?(sp) 

I was thinking more in context of the current and future financial crisis. Everybody weighs in on SS and welfare but nobody talks about DAV's. The comming possible crisis will effect us.

I have a thick skin so I want to hear real opinions and not PC opinions.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

belladulcinea said:


> We all are getting benefits from the government in one form or another.


I keep hearing this. It's intellectually dishonest. Let me tell you why.

In criminal circles, when you coerce someone into participating in a crime, you also force them to take a percentage of the money. If you and your fellow bankrobbers hide out for three day in some little old lady's house whom you've taken hostage, when you leave on the third day then you give her a couple of thousand dollars. It destroys her ability to rat you out. It makes her an _accomplice._

Almost every "benefit" I partake in is _forcibly extracted_ from me. If I don't pay, the government sends a SWAT team over to kick in my door, shoot my dog, and haul me off to prison. By giving me back a small piece of what was originally my money in the first place, only now in an inefficiently delivered "product" like the Department of Transportation, Criminal Courts, etc., I am NOT fundamentally the same as someone who has been collecting welfare for their entire adult life. 

There are many government services I would be happy to pay for, only if I did pay for them directly I would expect them to be ran a) honestly, b) efficiently, and c) fairly. Because the government doesn't want to meet criteria A, B, and C, they instead just steal the money from me. 

And you know what? It's going to get worse, and worse, and worse, and worse. Taxes are going to soar up far beyond the current levels. All of our nation's cops have effectively been turned into tax collectors and highway bandits. "To protect and serve" has been turned into "to collect and confiscate". If you think taxes have reached an alltime punitive high, then wait a little bit longer.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree 100% with Ernie on that one. Most of the benefits I receive from the government, I would opt out if I could. And it's not as if they are free benefits. I pay my fair share, and most years I pay the fair shares of at least two others who don't pay anything.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

time said:


> wittling?(sp)
> 
> I was thinking more in context of the current and future financial crisis. Everybody weighs in on SS and welfare but nobody talks about DAV's. The comming possible crisis will effect us.
> 
> I have a thick skin so I want to hear real opinions and not PC opinions.


Time, I don't have any clear cut answers for ya. I lost a lot of good friends in the Vietnam war (telling my age) that I miss every day. Brother in law was a medic and lost both of his eyes to a grenade. Before he went to service he was an auto mechanic. When he got out of the hospital he said he wanted to go back to work, so he built his own shop and worked until he retired a few years ago. He was know as the blind mechanic and was one of the best I have ever seen. His other senses took over and he could just listen to a motor and diagnose the problem. He also had a up to date shop.

That being said, I personally think if our Federal government lets our Vets down, well theirs a hot place in ---- for them.

Hopefully some one here will have a good answer for you. Again thank you for your service.

Tarheel


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

time said:


> wittling?(sp)
> 
> I was thinking more in context of the current and future financial crisis. Everybody weighs in on SS and welfare but nobody talks about DAV's. The comming possible crisis will effect us.
> 
> I have a thick skin so I want to hear real opinions and not PC opinions.


No, I'm dead serious. Woodworking or some other craft that you enjoy but can do with limited health. When the government money train stops ... even the buckets of cash that we all support are going to dry up. In fact, yours may stop even before the unwed ghetto mother's permanent pension fund does. 

You need to have some small craft and a home-based economy that will sustain you, even if it's on a minimal level.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Oh I get what you are saying but you can't opt out without going to jail or losing everything. So the "benefits" that are received back are well, I guess what they are, are appeasements.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Txsteader said:


> Goodness, I would think taking care of that 10 acres would be enough to keep him active. Between clearing brush, maintaining gardens, mowing and tending animals, it sure keeps us busy.


Heh they aren't into the homesteading thing. My mother is 76 and she keeps active clearing brush and mowing 2-3 acres, much of it with a push mower..

The only animals she tends to are the 20 or so whitetail deer she has a stock tank for and feeds every day. That and the dog they adopted from me last month.

Point being not all old timers working at Home depot or Walmart are sad, some really enjoy it and don't have to be there.

As for me, I understand SSI won't actually run out of money until about the time I'm 90. That is if things do not change between now and then. I expect them to raise the payroll tax cap and raise retirement age for younger folks before then though, to keep the thing afloat. I reckon I'll likely get SSI at 67.. But I also have saved enough to maybe get by without it, especially if I work and earn till I am over 70, which is what I will want to do anyway if I have the health to do it. But hopefully it'll be work on my terms at my place.

My whole plan and what brought me here is that I plan to learn to get myself down to a very very cheap lifestyle. With no debt and very little cash income needed, or maybe even a profit off my place that I can work at until I'm too old to get out and do it any more.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.....................This is something I've kinda been curious about , When an individual decides too Bugout , are you going too leave a forwarding addy so your mail will reach you ? Seems to me that , bugging out means cutting OFF all contact with mail delivery , and any contact with any governmental entity ! I don't think BOut will be as easy as some , Think ! , fordy


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

fordy said:


> .....................This is something I've kinda been curious about , When an individual decides too Bugout , are you going too leave a forwarding addy so your mail will reach you ? Seems to me that , bugging out means cutting OFF all contact with mail delivery , and any contact with any governmental entity ! I don't think BOut will be as easy as some , Think ! , fordy


Well personally I'll not be bugging out unless those government services are gone and non functional anyway.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

ryanthomas said:


> I agree 100% with Ernie on that one. Most of the benefits I receive from the government, I would opt out if I could. And it's not as if they are free benefits. I pay my fair share, and most years I pay the fair shares of at least two others who don't pay anything.


If we were truly free, you could opt out.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

time said:


> Disabled Vet. 100% reliant on taxpayers for income. Any suggestions?


If one can type on a computer, they can do title research. Quite a few courthouses have all their records online, and a person can work at home, as long as there is an internet connection. Courthouses without full access will accommodate folks with disabilities (don't know what the disability is, but I have worked with folks confined to wheelchairs). I spent two afternoons in a local courthouse Friday and yesterday, and made a good weeks salary. It's really the easiest work I've ever done, and pays twice the money I ever made. If you can read, and understand what you've read, and do puzzles, it can become an excellent source of income. Always dreamed of being self employed, and working a few hours a month, to pay the bills. If I just had a few 'extra' hours, I'd be a happy camper!

Anyone, everyone, disabled or not, that depends on 'mailbox' money, will be in the same boat, when the govt. falls, or when the fiat money system falls, or we just go slap dog broke. Do believe if I woke up, buck nekkid without a pot to pee in, tomorrow, and realized I was 100% dependent on mailbox money, I'd start rebuilding... start an orchard, nut trees, plant berry and vines, start saving for a pond/lake (for water and aquaculture). Re-arm, Re-food, Re-prep.

I do get mailbox money, from oil and gas properties, sometimes it's fat, sometimes it's thin... I don't/can't depend on it.



Txrider said:


> Well personally I'll not be bugging out unless those government services are gone and non functional anyway.


One of the signs of the End, is govt. is dead and gone. Imho, if such a scenario arrives, and it's obvious to Joe Sixpack and Joe Crips/Bloods, any bugging out, on public roads, is a fantasy... But do agree, there'd be no thought of bugging out, unless it's a truly bad bad situation. As in Biblical Bad.... and if it's that bad here, it's probably badder elsewhere...


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Texican, 

I think you are spot on, took what I would normally save for retirement this year and bought a tractor, built a new shed to house it and some other things. We are going to expand the orchard, which is really doing good if I can keep the frost from killing off everything. We built a new pond last year and started off with blue gill and they are up to about 5 finger size now and will be ready to eat this summer. Last week went and added bass and catfish for the real meat ! Next I have got to build that dang greenhouse that TnAndy has my wife on fire about and fencing, and, and, and- it just never stops.

That's going to be my retirement pension.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Tarheel said:


> Texican,
> 
> Next I have got to build that dang greenhouse that TnAndy has my wife on fire about and fencing, *and, and, and- it just never stops.*
> 
> That's going to be my retirement pension.


ahahaaa.....and NOW, brother, you have it figured out.

Life is just one series of projects after another, and the best you can hope for is that you don't die leaving your wife with TOO many of them unfinished !

My pity goes to the fools that live in condo's whose sole project is too see how deep a butt cheek indention they can put in the couch in front of their TV.


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