# Young Americans Unable to Serve in the Military



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

*The Looming National Security Crisis: Young Americans Unable to Serve in the Military*

*According to 2017 Pentagon data, 71 percent of young Americans between 17 and 24 are ineligible to serve in the United States military.Nolan Feeney, “Pentagon: 7 in 10 Youths Would Fail to Qualify for Military Service,” Time, June 2014, http://time.com/2938158/youth-fail-to-qualify-military-service/ (accessed January 4, 2018), and e-mail correspondence between the author and Jamie Lockhart, acting director of Mission: Readiness, on December 11, 2017.

 Put another way: Over 24 million of the 34 million people of that age group cannot join the armed forces—even if they wanted to. This is an alarming situation which threatens the country’s fundamental national security. If only 29 percent of the nation’s young adults are even qualified to serve, and these negative trends continue, it is inevitable that the U.S. military will suffer from a lack of manpower.

The military depends on a constant flow of volunteers every year to meet its requirements, and as the number of eligible Americans declines, it will be increasingly difficult to meet the needs. This is not a distant problem to address decades from now. The U.S. military is already having a hard time attracting enough qualified volunteers. Of the four services, the Army has the greatest annual need. The Army anticipates problems with meeting its 2018 goal to enlist 80,000 qualified volunteers, even with increased bonuses and incentives.Jared Serbu, “After Years of Drawdowns, Army Needs 80,000 New Soldiers to Meet 2018 Growth Targets,” Federal News Radio, October 18, 2017, https://federalnewsradio.com/on-dod...000-new-soldiers-to-meet-2018-growth-targets/ (accessed January 4, 2018).

Mission: Readiness Is Part of the Nonprofit Council for a Strong America, https://www.strongnation.org/ (accessed January 26, 2018).

In 2009, a group of retired U.S. generals and admirals formed a nonprofit group “Mission: Readiness to draw attention to this growing problem. In their report “Ready, Willing, and Unable to Serve,”Mission: Readiness, “Ready, Willing, and Unable to Serve,” undated, http://cdn.missionreadiness.org/NATEE1109.pdf (accessed January 26, 2018).

*
* they report that the main causes of this situation are inadequate education, criminality, and obesity. Unchecked, the combined effect of these three conditions will continue to decrease the number of young adults eligible to serve in the United States military.*
*
https://www.heritage.org/defense/re...sis-young-americans-unable-serve-the-military


*


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s a problem the service creates for its self. 
Relax the standards and the problem goes away.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

This is a discussion of INABILITY. NOT of UNWILLINGNESS. (Which is a whole other diatribe)


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s a problem the service creates for its self.
> Relax the standards and the problem goes away.


Ri-i-i-i-ght! Relax all the standards, and have an unqualified, mentally unstable, uneducated, criminally-leaning force to DEFEND our nation!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It doesn’t sound like either 
It sounds like the service simply isn’t responding to current conditions. 

Imagine that.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

If I want to enroll in medical school, and I can't comprehend what I read, and can't string two sentences together, why won't the school relax its standards and let me in anyway? And if I were opioid-dependent?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

nehimama said:


> Ri-i-i-i-ght! Relax all the standards, and have an unqualified, mentally unstable, uneducated, criminally-leaning force to DEFEND our nation!


Why would that be. ?

First you can relax some but not all standards. 
Secondly in times of greater need the service has traditionally relaxed it standards


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

nehimama said:


> If I want to enroll in medical school, and I can't comprehend what I read, and can't string two sentences together, why won't the school relax its standards and let me in anyway? And if I were opioid-dependent?


 I thought we were talking about the Army not med school.

There are some slight differences between the needed qualifications of a surgeon and cannon fodder.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> It doesn’t sound like either
> It sounds like the service simply isn’t responding to current conditions.
> 
> Imagine that.


Here are the "current conditions":

*They report that the main causes of this situation are inadequate education, criminality, and obesity. Unchecked, the combined effect of these three conditions will continue to decrease the number of young adults eligible to serve in the United States military.*


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I thought we were talking about the Army not med school.


Both institutions have standards. Why don't we just relax the standards for all institutions?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Because med school doesn’t need to.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

*sigh* Yes, they do, because I'm ineligible. They need to let me in, anyway.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I think it's sad that we have a generation that can qualify. I mean really: Graduate form high School, move your tushy so you don't get fat, and don't break that law. Those don't seems like really hard things to accomplish.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s a problem the service creates for its self.
> Relax the standards and the problem goes away.


Why would you relax the standards further than they already have been?

It's kinda handy to have a capable military instead of just a bunch of warm bodies


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I remember the late 70's when they didn't appear to have any standards scary times indeed


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hahaha...as i always say...with this entitled and chubby phone addicted generation you are not winning any wars anymore...
Most would burn water in a pot, since they ar not able to cook an egg...but hold a bachelor degree...
And on top...have you shopped for clothes recently?
Holy cow...jeans are available in sizes, they should not even be produced...
When you are 20 and you dont fit in a 35 waist Jeans, you have a problem...


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## jerry arnold (Dec 1, 2018)

nehimama said:


> Ri-i-i-i-ght! Relax all the standards, and have an unqualified, mentally unstable, uneducated, criminally-leaning force to DEFEND our nation!


what a interesting thought...let me find a hiding spot 1st


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## jerry arnold (Dec 1, 2018)

nehimama said:


> If I want to enroll in medical school, and I can't comprehend what I read, and can't string two sentences together, why won't the school relax its standards and let me in anyway? And if I were opioid-dependent?


And if I were opioid-dependent? you could star in a TV series


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s a problem the service creates for its self.
> Relax the standards and the problem goes away.


The problem started with relaxing the standards in the first place...


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

nehimama said:


> Ri-i-i-i-ght! Relax all the standards, and have an unqualified, mentally unstable, uneducated, criminally-leaning force to DEFEND our nation!


The standards used to be very much lower than they are today' People without a high school diploma were assigned tasks that did not need higher arithmetic skills, For every front line position there needs to be many people handling uniforms and driving trucks and cooking, and that was where the less qualified soldiers were put. My Father had a high school diploma but he only had vision in one eye, so they assigned him to a hospital to work. etc.

If the military lowers its standards to where they used to be, the problem would be solved.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

nehimama said:


> The U.S. military is already having a hard time attracting enough qualified volunteers.


Agree with Terri, and also this is nothing new in a booming economy. The military always suffers when kids can get jobs, and has an easier time recruiting when they can't.

Also, the military is killing itself by diminishing benefits that used to entice people into volunteering. There is no real long-term benefit now as medical benefits and pensions are being overhauled and, honestly, gutted. The VA proves over and over again that it's not willing or able to take care of veterans. There's no real incentive to make the military a career anymore, unless you just love what you do and that only takes you so far and so long with a decades' long war going on (deployment after deployment) The only real benefit now that you can't get in a civilian job is the GI Bill, but again, if civilian jobs are plentiful, why bother?

They, and Congress, did it to themselves.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

nehimama said:


> Ri-i-i-i-ght! Relax all the standards, and have an unqualified, mentally unstable, uneducated, criminally-leaning force to DEFEND our nation!


Well, back when I went in (volunteered) and we had the draft, that is EXACTLY what we had....several of the guys in my basic company from Memphis were given the choice of jail or the army. I slept with one eye open.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

TnAndy said:


> Well, back when I went in (volunteered) and we had the draft, that is EXACTLY what we had....several of the guys in my basic company from Memphis were given the choice of jail or the army. I slept with one eye open.


I was in during the 90's, no draft, and still slept with one eye open


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)




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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hahah great pic...you would never have taken the Normandy with him...


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Meinecke said:


> Hahah great pic...you would never have taken the Normandy with him...



Why not ? Put him in front, and 3 regular sized guys use him as a shield !


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## hardrock (Jun 8, 2010)




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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Well, my uncle enlisted in the Marine Corps to avoid jail time so criminality didn’t seem to be an issue. He says those drill instructors had a way of knocking the stupid clean out of a person, although he does express that much more colorfully.

My husband, when he entered Marine Corps boot camp, was labeled a Diet Private. Put a red stripe across the chest of all his shirts. Didn’t take too long for the drill instructors to motivate him to get rid of that stripe because apparently they are also really good at knocking the fat out of a person too.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Well, my uncle enlisted in the Marine Corps to avoid jail time so criminality didn’t seem to be an issue. He says those drill instructors had a way of knocking the stupid clean out of a person, although he does express that much more colorfully.
> 
> My husband, when he entered Marine Corps boot camp, was labeled a Diet Private. Put a red stripe across the chest of all his shirts. Didn’t take too long for the drill instructors to motivate him to get rid of that stripe because apparently they are also really good at knocking the fat out of a person too.


The only overweight people I knew in the Corps were those trying to eat their way out, and they _really_ had to work at it. Recruiters also usually run recruit pool physical training for people getting ready to go to boot camp to get them in shape ahead of time if they need/want it.

The problem isn't kids being too fat, because that can be changed if they want to, it's the military not being an attractive option anymore. Especially certain branches of the military. It's usually that branch having recruiting issues when the others are doing just fine, and the Air Force generally has a waiting list. Just sayin'.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Meinecke said:


> Hahah great pic...you would never have taken the Normandy with him...


The US Army Stormed the beaches of Normandy.. not the Marines.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> I remember the late 70's when they didn't appear to have any standards scary times indeed


 I remember the physical;
eyes,2. 
Heart beat yes....
I remember draftees that were like a three stooges act. 
They just keep lowering the IQ standards. 
But. They managed to keep filling the body bags.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

nehimama said:


> Ri-i-i-i-ght! Relax all the standards, and have an unqualified, mentally unstable, uneducated, criminally-leaning force to DEFEND our nation!


 See nothing will change.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

LOL!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

nehimama said:


> Here are the "current conditions":
> 
> *They report that the main causes of this situation are inadequate education, criminality, and obesity. Unchecked, the combined effect of these three conditions will continue to decrease the number of young adults eligible to serve in the United States military.*



I remember when you could get criminal charges dropped if you joined the military.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Mish said:


> Agree with Terri, and also this is nothing new in a booming economy. The military always suffers when kids can get jobs, and has an easier time recruiting when they can't.
> 
> Also, the military is killing itself by diminishing benefits that used to entice people into volunteering. There is no real long-term benefit now as medical benefits and pensions are being overhauled and, honestly, gutted. The VA proves over and over again that it's not willing or able to take care of veterans. There's no real incentive to make the military a career anymore, unless you just love what you do and that only takes you so far and so long with a decades' long war going on (deployment after deployment) The only real benefit now that you can't get in a civilian job is the GI Bill, but again, if civilian jobs are plentiful, why bother?
> 
> They, and Congress, did it to themselves.



The VA takes very good care of me and every other Vet I speak with in person


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> The VA takes very good care of me and every other Vet I speak with in person


Yep!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Weirdly enough the army used to train new recruits. 
In the olden days basic not only taught you how to stand up straight but was know to take off a few pounds .
Then you went off and learned to do something 
Any reason they can’t do that any more ?


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

Certainly the obesity thing could be remedied in an extended boot camp.
Also, the education could be "forced" by making them get a GED once in...although it may need to be remedial in some cases...and as mentioned, there are loads of jobs that aren't front line that need doing to keep things moving...cooks, paper shufflers, mail people, maintenance (cleaning), etc.
And, yeah...some criminals are not violent, and that could/should be remedied to a certain degree...things that are aren't felonies would be a good place to start.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

oneraddad said:


> The VA takes very good care of me and every other Vet I speak with in person


I think it must depend on the location, I've heard great stories and horror stories. I know quite a few people that have had serious problems with the VA, especially with trying to get help with mental health care. Here in San Diego there are more than a few charities that have picked up the baton because the VA was dropping it so often. Maybe it's generational, as well.

I haven't had to deal with them, yet, as thankfully I was pretty much unscathed and have other healthcare.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Joining the military would fix some of the problems these kids have with being unfit for the military**cough fat**cough**lazy**cough cough


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

oneraddad said:


> The VA takes very good care of me and every other Vet I speak with in person


Depends which VA hospital one goes to. Here in area a lot of Doctors are from other countries because the government got them cheap. Some of the Doctors here have been kicked out of VA hospitals. Some VA hospitals really art top hospitals. Some of the VA hospitals have Doctors from other regular top hospitals close by to do operations. The VA hospital close to me does not do any operation or eye care. People are sent to other hospitals. The local hospital sent me to a top hospital close by to do my eye operations. There are a lot of small public hospitals like the one here that should only treat animals.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s a problem the service creates for its self.
> Relax the standards and the problem goes away.


When there is a war and people are really needed the standards are lowered. Then they get more then they want.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Our military has been all volunteer service since the mid 1970s and been able to maintain it's essential manpower numbers , so the number of those not eligible to enlist has been a moot point for about 45 years now even though a lot of 18 year old guys are ruining their chances of their best future by not registering with Selective Service so there is a database of eligible males in case a draft lottery is required to back up our currently adequate volunteer military numbers.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I thought we were talking about the Army not med school.
> 
> There are some slight differences between the needed qualifications of a surgeon and cannon fodder.


The military has changed a bit since the days of marching troops out to draw enemy fire, thus being able to locate enemies position. Today's military needs people that can perform complex tasks. It's a high tech game these days that requires highly skilled people. Cannon fodder is a thing of the past.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

YH 
Honestly I’d love to believe that .
I really would. 
But politicians always seem to have reasons that we need to put “boots on the ground” and “show the flag” .
That’s cannon fodder. 
Think about our boys coming home in bags. Where any of the last ten....., or even 100 engaged in “high tech” when killed ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Today's military needs people that can perform complex tasks. It's a high tech game these days that requires highly skilled people.


 Is that the problem ? The services have cornered them selves by creating a system that requires operators they can’t hope to attract ?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

If old guys want to have a war, they should get their shriveled up asses off the toilet and into the trenches. If they want to send kids to die for the old guys political gain, they should send their own.

Look how much it would save the Social Security and Medicare programs.


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

I guess this is the reason the AF recruiter about wet himself with delight when my oldest son joined. The recruiter said in 10 months of recruiting that my son was his first "one stop", I asked what is one stop? He said it is when they only have to send a person to MEPS once to take care of the asvab, physical, and any other required items. He said most recruits would have to go anywhere from 2 to 5 times to MEPS before being ready to go.

Also he congratulated my wife and I on raising our children right. See my son has never had any broken bones, isn't overweight, never done drugs, doesn't have a criminal history, never had a speeding ticket, etc. He even did the extra test that can be taken to qualify for two or three specialized career fields (trying to remember the test acronym) (and yes he passed that too). The recruiter mentioned that he wishes he could get more people like my son. 

I'm sure you can tell - I'm a proud dad.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Um wait a second there sniper. Have you gave any thought to what it means that other kids like your kid DONT enlist?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The military has changed a bit since the days of marching troops out to draw enemy fire, thus being able to locate enemies position. Today's military needs people that can perform complex tasks. It's a high tech game these days that requires highly skilled people. Cannon fodder is a thing of the past.


There goes my plans to empty out the prisons... You sure can mess up my thoughts!


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

No great nation has ever been defeated by outside forces. Rather it's internal rot and decay which first infects the nation like a cancer, this makes defeat inevitable. The writing was on the wall for quite some time.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> I thought we were talking about the Army not med school.
> 
> There are some slight differences between the needed qualifications of a surgeon and *cannon fodder.*


Your thinking IS the problem. The reason we’re still here today is that the United States don’t field “cannon fodder”. They field victors.

Our technological prowess is only part of the recipe. Another part of it is Right. The rest of it is the superiority of our warriors.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

TripleD said:


> There goes my plans to empty out the prisons... You sure can mess up my thoughts!


 You want empty prisons? just Repeal the unconstitutional Drug laws. You will pretty much turn them into Ghost towns.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Your thinking IS the problem. The reason we’re still here today is that the United States don’t field “cannon fodder”. They field victors.
> 
> Our technological prowess is only part of the recipe. Another part of it is Right. The rest of it is the superiority of our warriors.


 Did you read post 45?
Today at 1:20 PM #45 

* AmericanStand Well-Known Member *
Messages:
11,361
Joined:
Jul 29, 2014
YH 
Honestly I’d love to believe that .
I really would. 
But politicians always seem to have reasons that we need to put “boots on the ground” and “show the flag” .
That’s cannon fodder. 
*Think about our boys coming home in bags. Where any of the last ten....., or even 100 engaged in “high tech” when killed* ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Your thinking IS the problem. The reason we’re still here today is that the United States don’t field “cannon fodder”. They field victors.
> 
> Our technological prowess is only part of the recipe. Another part of it is Right. The rest of it is the superiority of our warriors.


 Just out of curiosity what conflict do you think we have had in the last hundred years that had anything to contribute to THE USA still being Here? I think All we have done is tick off the people that used to love us. We have squandered our moral standing.
Whats this "Victors" stuff? Do you mean Nam or Afghanistan? 
Do you think of it as a victory when one of the largest and the wealthiest nations on earth wins a Battle with some tiny third world nation? What is it when we cant even kick butt in some back ward cave man society like Afghanistan or on a bunch of rice field, tire tread wearing peasants like Vietnam??


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Um wait a second there sniper. Have you gave any thought to what it means that other kids like your kid DONT enlist?


Yep, I've given it thought, and it shows some of what is wrong with this country. Besides patriotism, the military has a lot to offer. I don't feel it is adequately explained to children, and many don't seem to realize that the military can be a good career choice. 

As for my oldest joining - I was supportive of him joining the Air Force, but didn't force him to. But he did have a good example of what military service entails as his mom (my wife) served and retired from the Air Force. My BIL served and retired from the Navy, my ex-BIL served and retired from the Marines, and one of my nephew's is currently in the Army National Guard.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Sometimes I can keep my mouth shut....today isn't one of those days..


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

sniper69 said:


> Yep, I've given it thought, and it shows some of what is wrong with this country. Besides patriotism, the military has a lot to offer. I don't feel it is adequately explained to children, and many don't seem to realize that the military can be a good career choice.
> 
> As for my oldest joining - I was supportive of him joining the Air Force, but didn't force him to. But he did have a good example of what military service entails as his mom (my wife) served and retired from the Air Force. My BIL served and retired from the Navy, my ex-BIL served and retired from the Marines, and one of my nephew's is currently in the Army National Guard.


You have a lot to be proud of with your son.

We're like you, a military family - I did an enlistment and my husband retired from the Marines a few years ago, my sister is just hit 21 years in the AF, nephew in the Army (AF mom NOT happy about that, Army son says he should have listened to her lol), lots of aunts and uncles and cousins that were military. Every branch, including Coast Guard. All of us...I wouldn't say discouraged but...didn't _encourage_ our kids to follow in our footsteps.

The military is changing, both culturally and financially, and the constant deployments or threat of deployment and a "war on terror" that shows no signs of ever ending isn't necessarily a good career choice from experience. Retirement has been completely reworked away from a pension system into a kind of blended system with a sort of IRA (TSP plan), which experts are still up on the air about whether it will be a good thing or a bad thing - but I think it does encourage short enlistments over career service. They're really chipping away at retiree medical benefits, upping premiums and co-pays, shoving people onto the most expensive plans if you don't retire/live near a military treatment facility (and even then you'll be put on the more expensive plan if the MTF doesn't have room for you - which most don't), and I'm pretty sure deductibles to be met before they'll pay are the next step in the process. The GI Bill is still a great deal, but I can do my first enlistment, qualify and get out, no retention factor for the military.

It's just not worth it to make a career financially anymore. The idea of patriotism is good and noble, but you can't ask people to give up what they give up without some kind of benefit or you're going to have problems getting people to do the job. Especially when they have other options that don't require you spending time in some really exciting areas of the world, or moving your family every couple of years so your kids are constantly uprooted and your spouse has a hard time making their own career while also acting as a single parent in a strange area with no relatives and worrying about you being killed every day you're gone.

Lots of things play into the lack of qualified applicants. I know a lot of other military families steer their kids in the opposite direction, some pretty forcefully. I'm not ashamed to say we did.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> The services have cornered them selves by creating a system that requires *operators* they can’t hope to attract ?


They can attract them.
It's just that many can't pass the physical testing.
Real 'operators" don't have that problem.
Once they get through basic, even the geeks can make it in the military.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I don't get the "criminality" part. Entering the armed forces used to be an alternative to jail for young men. The disciplined environment straightened out a lot of them who started down a bad path.

The obesity or lack of physical fitness, they could resolve that for a lot of recruits, too. Have a pre boot camp for conditioning.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

Our youngest son wants to enlist after he is done with school, still kicking around the Idea of the Marines or SF. It is a shame that kids are more likely to reach for a video game than a Football or Baseball, imho that rest at the feet of Mom and Dad.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

montysky said:


> Our youngest son wants to enlist after he is done with school, still kicking around the Idea of the Marines or SF. It is a shame that kids are more likely to reach for a video game than a Football or Baseball, imho that rest at the feet of Mom and Dad.


The air force has better educational programs then the marines. Much harder boot camp and training in the marines.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> YH
> Honestly I’d love to believe that .
> I really would.
> But politicians always seem to have reasons that we need to put “boots on the ground” and “show the flag” .
> ...


I haven't checked so can't say for sure but I'm confident that most of them were doing something a bit higher up than marching out to draw enemy fire.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TripleD said:


> There goes my plans to empty out the prisons... You sure can mess up my thoughts!


That's easy too. Execute the violent offenders, release the poor Devils convicted of victimless crimes. That leaves that handful of "white collar" criminals who could spend a year breaking up big rocks into little ones. Our entire prison population could be hosed in one medium sized facility within a years time.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Did you read post 45?
> Today at 1:20 PM #45
> 
> * AmericanStand Well-Known Member *
> ...


Yes, I DID read your post, and, while I was dutifully impressed with the profundity of your view on the matter, I also realized it was so skewed and misinformed that I chose not to respond to it. 

But, if you insist...

All of the last 10, and even the last 100, for that matter, of our service people were “engaged in ‘high tech’ when they were killed”. 

The United States infantryman (our “cannon fodder” as you so condescendingly labeled them) is the most technologically advanced warfighter in the history of warfighting. Every ounce of gear strapped to them is “high-tech”. Their comms and support are high tech, as is their training. 

Wars aren’t won with drones, and territory isn’t held by air-support. I don’t really care what you’d “love to believe”. It’s clear you don’t understand this subject. 



AmericanStand said:


> Just out of curiosity what conflict do you think we have had in the last hundred years that had anything to contribute to THE USA still being Here? I think All we have done is tick off the people that used to love us. We have squandered our moral standing.
> Whats this "Victors" stuff? Do you mean Nam or Afghanistan?
> Do you think of it as a victory when one of the largest and the wealthiest nations on earth wins a Battle with some tiny third world nation? What is it when we cant even kick butt in some back ward cave man society like Afghanistan or on a bunch of rice field, tire tread wearing peasants like Vietnam??


I’m sometimes astounded by the bizarre reality that foments your even more bizarre views. 

WWII happened in the last 100 years. Allowing France, England, Australia, China, Philippines, and a host of other nations to fall to the Germans and Japanese would have left us at a huge disadvantage when those aggressors set their sights on the America’s. 

Had we rolled over and played-French in Korea or Vietnam, the emboldened communists would have shown us a very different end to the Cold War. 

The war in Afghanistan, while not executed perfectly, and tragically lacking in exit-strategy, undoubtedly kept Al Queda on their heels and focused fighting us on a more traditional battlefield, instead of in our malls and airports for last 15 years. 

To your examples in Vietnam and Afghanistan, there is a non-finite nature to asymmetrical warfare, but categorizing either of those as you did is just plain wrong. 

In Vietnam, we weren’t just fighting some “tire tread wearing peasants”, we were at war with China (as in Korea), bolstered by a regional insurgency. The theatre was Vietnam, but the war was between the US and China. 

In Afghanistan, we made pretty quick work of the Taliban-proper, the national force. What we’ve been fighting there ever since is the radical-Islamic insurgency, and insurgencies almost never die. That is just a reality of modern conflict that we’ve yet to, and may never, find a solution to.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

montysky said:


> Our youngest son wants to enlist after he is done with school, still kicking around the Idea of the Marines or SF. It is a shame that kids are more likely to reach for a video game than a Football or Baseball, imho that rest at the feet of Mom and Dad.


The Marines have a formal SF force now. Have your son look into the Raiders. They’re an evolution of MARSOC, but do have more formal SF-like mission sets now.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Yes, I DID read your post, and, while I was dutifully impressed with the profundity of your view on the matter, I also realized it was so skewed and misinformed that I chose not to respond to it.
> 
> But, if you insist...
> 
> ...


There appears to be only one real solution, but to implement it makes us as bad or worse than the enemy.... Kill them all. I'd rather not go down that road.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> All of the last 10, and even the last 100, for that matter, of our service people were “engaged in ‘high tech’ when they were killed”.
> 
> The United States infantryman (our “cannon fodder” as you so condescendingly labeled them) is the most technologically advanced warfighter in the history of warfighting. Every ounce of gear strapped to them is “high-tech”. Their comms and support are high tech, as is their training.
> 
> Wars aren’t won with drones, and territory isn’t held by air-support. I don’t really care what you’d “love to believe”. It’s clear you don’t understand this subject


 I’m sorry I did not mean to trivialize the American solder. 
Much the opposite in fact. 
I use the term cannon fodder as a insult to politicians. 
I consider life , any life but specially human life worry of respect. 
While I understand our soldiers are equipped with high tech gear and training what they have had in common at the time of their deaths was their main purpose was showing the flag , making a old fashioned political statement.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There appears to be only one real solution, but to implement it makes us as bad or worse than the enemy.... Kill them all. I'd rather not go down that road.


I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think that even that is the solution.

The strategic irony of fighting an insurgency is that every innocent killed, even if you didn’t kill them, creates two new insurgents.

It’s a puzzle that the greatest minds of our fighting force is going to struggle with for some time to come, if they ever solve it at all.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> I’m sorry I did not mean to trivialize the American solder.
> Much the opposite in fact.
> I use the term cannon fodder as a insult to politicians.
> I consider life , any life but specially human life worry of respect.
> While I understand our soldiers are equipped with high tech gear and training what they have had in common at the time of their deaths was their main purpose was showing the flag , making a old fashioned political statement.


Thanks for that, but, even that said, the wars we fight are not exclusively for political gain. I won’t argue with you that there isn’t plenty of profiteering going on, but, at their basis, the wars we’ve fought have been just ones. 

Even Vietnam, the war that is seemingly written off to profit for the military-industrial complex legitimately was a war against imperialistic communism. 

I still haven’t figured out Iraq ‘03, so I may have to give that one to you, but that one would be the anomaly, not the rule.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> WWII happened in the last 100 years. Allowing France, England, Australia, China, Philippines, and a host of other nations to fall to the Germans and Japanese would have left us at a huge disadvantage when those aggressors set their sights on the America’s.
> 
> Had we rolled over and played-French in Korea or Vietnam, the emboldened communists would have shown us a very different end to the Cold War.
> 
> ...


 You forgot WWI. 
Perhaps because it’s obvious that if it had worked there would have been No WWII. 
And of course if it was a success we wouldn’t have been in conflict with China in Korea and Vietnam and if that had been won would China have Been pushing the world in the China sea ?
What makes you think that Japan and Germany would have been aggressive towards the USA ? Perhaps they would have been satisfied if we had simply quit pushing them. ? 
As for everything in the Middle East, perhaps we should Learn the lessons of the past and just keep our noses out. ?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The US military faced the same lack of readiness problems back in the 1930s and 40s as did many countries. One reason possible recruits were unsuitable was because of the Great Depression and the lack of food when these possible soldiers were growing up and in need of the proper nutrition. Physical training and good food did greatly improve them and at an very quick pace. 

Today the opposite plan of reducing weight and building muscles with proper food and physical training would be necessary. Education is another matter - by 18 if kids are not well educated in the basics of reading, language, math and science it will be difficult to play catch-up.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

1975 If you got in trouble at 17 18 judges might offer you The Army


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Never let academic achievement "or the lack of" be the the most important factor when judging the potential or performance of soldiers.Some of the finest soldiers I have ever known & served with had little or no formal education.And some of the worst were well educated,high IQ ,lazy,self entitled brats. Higher standards? Lower Standards?...It's all relative..While the academic entry standards may be higher today... the standards for achieving that academic goal "HS Diploma" etc in many if not most cases have fallen sharply with many new HS graduates barely able to read or write, and unable to balance a checkbook.As for physical standards it was often times almost brutal.."Back in the day".. I was a professional soldier,I joined in the 1970's at the age of 17 years old.. and yes I was a HS Dropout.I came from a family of poor migrant laborers.I also graduated from every military school ever attended as the Distinguished Honor Graduate ,often ahead of my peers with advanced degrees.I currently have enough credits for a doctorate degree and still have a perfect GPA.The best soldiers that I've ever seen are those that apply themselves with a dedication that will not allow them to fail at their mission.Those that strive for perfection,that never give up on themselves,their comrades or their mission.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> I don't get the "criminality" part. Entering the armed forces used to be an alternative to jail for young men. The disciplined environment straightened out a lot of them who started down a bad path.
> 
> The obesity or lack of physical fitness, they could resolve that for a lot of recruits, too. Have a pre boot camp for conditioning.


The army isnt desperate enough to deal with that anymore.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

101pigs said:


> The air force has better educational programs then the marines. Much harder boot camp and training in the marines.


thank you for your reply, I also understand that the Navy has great or better educational options.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Guess people have short memory. The Iraq war not that long ago required lowering of standards plus large sign up bonuses to get enough warm bodies. They didnt want the draft since that would get the general publics attention on an unnecessary war that they didnt want lot attention on. The lesson learned from Vietnam was not to avoid involvement in local wars, they just learned not to get the public involved. Long as you can lure/bribe enough poor folk to serve, the middle class and rich arent going to be very concerned.

If people like our current president had been forced to serve and not buy their way out one way or another, then any wars would be short. The upper classes dont like paying price of war with their own childrens blood. Probably most involvement of upper class children was in WWII. Most of other wars were fought mostly by the poor children. Vietnam was definitely mostly a poor war.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The Marines have a formal SF force now. Have your son look into the Raiders. They’re an evolution of MARSOC, but do have more formal SF-like mission sets now.


My Son has talked about Rangers and Green Berets,, I did look up Marine Raiders and Force Recon(I have seen the movie the shooter) not clear what place the latter has but my hat is off to all of them. I will ask him about them also, thank you.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> You forgot WWI.
> Perhaps because it’s obvious that if it had worked there would have been No WWII.
> And of course if it was a success we wouldn’t have been in conflict with China in Korea and Vietnam and if that had been won would China have Been pushing the world in the China sea ?
> What makes you think that Japan and Germany would have been aggressive towards the USA ? Perhaps they would have been satisfied if we had simply quit pushing them. ?
> As for everything in the Middle East, perhaps we should Learn the lessons of the past and just keep our noses out. ?


I didn’t “forget” about WWI. You specifically asked:


AmericanStand said:


> Just out of curiosity what conflict do you think we have had in the last hundred years that had anything to contribute to THE USA still being Here? I think All we have done is tick off the people that used to love us...


WWI ended just over 100 years ago, but WWII (which _you_ apparently forgot about) did occur in your requested timeframe, and our fighting it did contribute to us still being here. 

Our gel-political failures in WWI were not what brought about WWII, and it certainly wasn’t because of our greed. WWI was the first time in history (that I can think of) where the vanquished were allowed to keep their lands and maintain their sovereignty. 

If anything, WWII happened because we chose to exercise restraint and not take Germany as our due spoils.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

montysky said:


> My Son has talked about Rangers and Green Berets,, I did look up Marine Raiders and Force Recon(I have seen the movie the shooter) not clear what place the latter has but my hat is off to all of them. I will ask him about them also, thank you.


I would not advise my child to be ranger, raider,Green Beret , or navy seal.
Raiders and others mention are about killing and being killed. That's mainly what they are trained to do. In the Air Force and also Navy there is a lot of jobs that can be used when he gets out of the military.

The marines has twice the mortality rate of the army. 10 times the rate of the air force, and navy.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> I thought we were talking about the Army not med school.
> 
> There are some slight differences between the needed qualifications of a surgeon and cannon fodder.


You would a crap officer if you viewed you soldiers as 'cannon fodder' 

Just sayin'


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

coolrunnin said:


> I remember the late 70's when they didn't appear to have any standards scary times indeed


In the early 80's (1980 June to be exact) I COULD NOT get into the Armed Forces (Just graduated from high school, 3.8 gpa, 11 varsity sports letters 97% in ASVAB) no criminal record.

Just James Earl Carter


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Riverdale said:


> In the early 80's (1980 June to be exact) I COULD NOT get into the Armed Forces (Just graduated from high school, 3.8 gpa, 11 varsity sports letters 97% in ASVAB) no criminal record.
> 
> Just James Earl Carter


Ummm Jimmy wasn't commander in chief anymore.
Oops my bad yes he was. Sure don't know why you couldn't get in if you had all that. Some of the trash I served with in Germany certainly didn't have much more than join the army or go to prison going for them. And a fair portion of them were nothing but brig bunnies anyway.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Riverdale said:


> You would a crap officer if you viewed you soldiers as 'cannon fodder'
> 
> Just sayin'


 I think you are right unfortunately I don’t think hawks And politicians think even that much of them.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

101pigs said:


> I would not advise my child to be ranger, raider,Green Beret , or navy seal.
> Raiders and others mention are about killing and being killed. That's mainly what they are trained to do. In the Air Force and also Navy there is a lot of jobs that can be used when he gets out of the military.
> 
> The marines has twice the mortality rate of the army. 10 times the rate of the air force, and navy.


To be 100 percent honest my first choice would be a Navy officer, but it is his dream and something that he has talked about for a long time when growing up and I/we will be very proud of him whichever path he takes, of course like any parent we would not want any harm to come to him or any of our children.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

montysky said:


> To be 100 percent honest my first choice would be a Navy officer, but it is his dream and something that he has talked about for a long time when growing up and I/we will be very proud of him whichever path he takes, of course like any parent we would not want any harm to come to him or any of our children.


Part of being a parent is teaching kids things they dont particularly want to hear and wearing the stupid out of them.
Point out to him that if he joins the Coast Guard after training he will do a real job every day. Lots of "Hero" jobs there.


"Point out" means Take him to a CG recruiter and let your son tell him what he wants to do and let the recruiter tell him about comparable jobs that the coast CG does every day.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

nehimama said:


> Here are the "current conditions":
> 
> *They report that the main causes of this situation are inadequate education, criminality, and obesity. Unchecked, the combined effect of these three conditions will continue to decrease the number of young adults eligible to serve in the United States military.*


Well you can fix obesity, but lack of education and criminal records. You're hooped.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> I remember the late 70's when they didn't appear to have any standards scary times indeed


Canadian Military certainly did-high school graduate, no criminal record, had to pass physical and fitness tests. I know a guy who had to do it 3 times before he finally did it. And even then you might not make it. You had to pass interviews, behavioral tests etc.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Meinecke said:


> Hahaha...as i always say...with this entitled and chubby phone addicted generation you are not winning any wars anymore...
> Most would burn water in a pot, since they ar not able to cook an egg...but hold a bachelor degree...
> And on top...have you shopped for clothes recently?
> Holy cow...jeans are available in sizes, they should not even be produced...
> When you are 20 and you dont fit in a 35 waist Jeans, you have a problem...



Actually not entirely true. When I was twenty playing football. I ws 6 foot 1 about 235. I think size 36-37. Not a problem. But yes in general yes. Go to your average school, go to a gym class, you'll see them in gym clothes and wonder how did kids get so large (generalizing)


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

hardrock said:


> View attachment 74716


A##es like him need a drill instructor.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Weirdly enough the army used to train new recruits.
> In the olden days basic not only taught you how to stand up straight but was know to take off a few pounds .
> Then you went off and learned to do something
> Any reason they can’t do that any more ?


I have a friend who used to be in Canadian military. They don't like doing that. An obese person cqan get a back "injury" and then you have a leech on the system. He told me it was not uncommon.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

nehimama said:


> Both institutions have standards. Why don't we just relax the standards for all institutions?


......................How do you think all these 7 foot black athletes have been admitted to all the Ivy League colleges on scholarships ? THe NCAA must be managed by a group of morons right ? IT's all about the money.........the coaches make contracts worth millions each year and the poor old Prof's have to get by on 150k a year or so . Football is the same thing just like basketball ! , fordy


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

First and foremost the military is NOT, and must never be, an EEO employer.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

1948CaseVAI said:


> First and foremost the military is NOT, and must never be, an EEO employer.


ABSOLUTELY!!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

1948CaseVAI said:


> First and foremost the military is NOT, and must never be, an EEO employer.


I have always thought it should be, give those politicians and their wealthy benefactor’s kids the same chances has the rest of us.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

1948CaseVAI said:


> First and foremost the military is NOT, and must never be, an EEO employer.


Heck it's been used for social experimentation at least since WW2, in a way it make a perfect laboratory for it since members are from all socioeconomic backgrounds


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> Heck it's been used for social experimentation at least since WW2, in a way it make a perfect laboratory for it since members are from all socioeconomic backgrounds


We can't afford social experiments at the expense of national security and military readiness.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol now that’s funny.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> We can't afford social experiments at the expense of national security and military readiness.


Maybe! If all we used the military for was national defense.

The last several forays have been all about the almighty buck. Of which viewed in the abstract is national defense I suppose.

Besides neither you or I get a voice in what is done with or to the military.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

fordy said:


> ......................How do you think all these 7 foot black athletes have been admitted to all the Ivy League colleges on scholarships ? THe NCAA must be managed by a group of morons right ? IT's all about the money.........the coaches make contracts worth millions each year and the poor old Prof's have to get by on 150k a year or so . Football is the same thing just like basketball ! , fordy


What the colour of the athlete have to do with anything? Are they dumber?

BTW Ivy League not a good example-they are actually students. You may notice they don't too well in sports.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> Maybe! If all we used the military for was national defense.
> 
> The last several forays have been all about the almighty buck. Of which viewed in the abstract is national defense I suppose.
> 
> Besides neither you or I get a voice in what is done with or to the military.


Again, I say that we cannot afford to have our military used as a playground for social experiments.It's completely inappropriate and reduces combat effectiveness. As for having a voice, I have one and will use it.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Part of being a parent is teaching kids things they dont particularly want to hear and wearing the stupid out of them.
> Point out to him that if he joins the Coast Guard after training he will do a real job every day. Lots of "Hero" jobs there.
> 
> 
> "Point out" means Take him to a CG recruiter and let your son tell him what he wants to do and let the recruiter tell him about comparable jobs that the coast CG does every day.


I agree that part of being a parent is giving our kids the "tools" that are needed to live a good and righteous life, I also think How I live my life shows our boys how to be a good man, likewise how My dear Wife lives her life teachers the same to our Daughters.

If My son wants to be a Marine or in the special force I will be dang proud of Him, but if he Wanted to join the Coast Guard which he doesn't I would also be proud of him. but part of being a parent is letting your kids chart they own path in life. like they say in horse racing bred the best to the best, and hope for the best.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

I understand veterans are poorly treated by the veterans administration in the US and in Canada I know they are. The question is why would anyone want to serve in the military? The only reason I can see to join would be to avoid a jail sentence.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

ydderf said:


> I understand veterans are poorly treated by the veterans administration in the US and in Canada I know they are. The question is why would anyone want to serve in the military? The only reason I can see to join would be to avoid a jail sentence.


Let's see, I got a great education, lots of training, saw quite a few places in the world and that 10 years spent in the Army set me up for a great job that I will retire from with an excellent retirement, by the time I'm 55. The VA is great in some areas and not so great in others, haven't really had that much to complain about.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

ydderf said:


> I understand veterans are poorly treated by the veterans administration in the US and in Canada I know they are. The question is why would anyone want to serve in the military? The only reason I can see to join would be to avoid a jail sentence.


Our daughter went to VMI and the Air Force paid her tuition, her husband is active Navy (a Captain) and went through the Naval Academy. 

Our daughter would rather not use the VA or Tricare, so she carries her own insurance through her employer. Our son in law has never had a problem with Tricare.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

montysky said:


> I agree that part of being a parent is giving our kids the "tools" that are needed to live a good and righteous life, ........... but part of being a parent is letting your kids chart they own path in life. like they say in horse racing bred the best to the best, and hope for the best.


 I think you have it right. But if your son hasn’t been well exposed to the coast gaurd he is making a Uninformed ( nice word for ignorant) choice. 
Like many I didn’t even know my dream job existed when I joined the service. 

Now even once informed he may still want to join the marines but at least he will do it form a position of knowledge not ignorance. 

Of course no one can know about every job but I think exploring what you can is wise.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

The Coast Guard is great. My ex-brother-in-law (that's a mouthful) was a rescue diver in the CG and absolutely loved it. They took care of him and his family very well.

The Marine Corps is great too. Couple of Jarheads in my family. There is a feeling of family (not just in a greeting card kind of way) in the Corps that I don't think a lot of the other services have, and we take care of each other very well, also. You won't be coddled, your hand won't be held, but you'll be given a lot of real responsibility right away, and you'll grow from it. You learn to earn respect and not just expect it to be handed to you, and you'll always have people who have your back, even after you're no longer active duty. It's different.

The Navy is great. It's like the Air Force in that they are more...?civilian-i-fied? than the USMC or the Army. They also deploy. A lot. Secondarily, I heart Corpsmen, they're the most awesome ever.

The Air Force is great. After watching my sister spend the last 20+ years of her life in it, and comparing notes, it is much different in culture than my experience in the Corps. Better in some ways (definitely higher quality food/lodgings/travel accommodations and, did I mention more civilian-i-fied?) and worse in others (less tight-knit camaraderie, and I know this is going to tick people off but the leadership chain seems much less interested in taking care of the troops than the USMC, and more about CYA - sister was a First Sergeant, and had my and my husband's experience to compare, straight from the horse's mouth). She calls it the corporate branch.

The Army is a whole different beast. My nephew is trying to get an inter-service transfer out of the Army and into the Air Force before he comes up for his third re-enlistment. Coast Guard, Marine, and Air Force family members tried to tell him but he didn't want to listen 

Anyway, no one can really know without going through it. The best you can do is get the most information you can from people who have been there and done that and take your chances. Most services offer the same sorts of jobs (even us stupid Jarheads have tech fields available), so go for the service that feels like the place for you. Just don't do what my nephew did and pick the one that makes you seem the most oppositional just because you're being a brat and didn't want to make your mother happy. lol


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

So, how many of you who love veterans affairs have been injured either physically or mentally while in the service. If you use veterans admin for a toothache or headache you are generally fine.
Although the worst dentist I've been to bragged about all the jaws he rebuilt while in the veterans hospital in Detroit (I think) it was a large veterans hospital in the eastern US). He was by far the roughest dentist I've been to in my life, he only lasted a few months here so I was not the only person unsatisfied with his work.

The poor people who have lost a limb or hearing or other major physical damage seem to have less praise for the veterans admin. I have a friend who was wounded twice in Vietnam, for years he self medicated with alcohol primarily, he has been clean and sober for 20 some years now. He now wants nothing to do with the US let alone the veterans bureaucracy. I've tried to talk him into at least applying for his US pension with no luck.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

ydderf said:


> So, how many of you who love veterans affairs have been injured either physically or mentally while in the service. If you use veterans admin for a toothache or headache you are generally fine.
> Although the worst dentist I've been to bragged about all the jaws he rebuilt while in the veterans hospital in Detroit (I think) it was a large veterans hospital in the eastern US). He was by far the roughest dentist I've been to in my life, he only lasted a few months here so I was not the only person unsatisfied with his work.
> 
> The poor people who have lost a limb or hearing or other major physical damage seem to have less praise for the veterans admin. I have a friend who was wounded twice in Vietnam, for years he self medicated with alcohol primarily, he has been clean and sober for 20 some years now. He now wants nothing to do with the US let alone the veterans bureaucracy. I've tried to talk him into at least applying for his US pension with no luck.


Luckily I haven't had to deal with the VA, and I agree, I've heard horror stories. I think it very much depends on which VA hospital you go to, and what area you live in - which in itself is pretty disgraceful.

Having said that, some of the doctors I and my family have been subjected to while on active duty or as dependents were terrifying. My husband has been through 3 bone grafts on his jaw in the last 6 years because some idiot military dentist didn't do a root canal properly and it destroyed his jaw bone. My daughter was almost killed by a morphine overdose at the military hospital while recovering from a minor surgery. And about dozen other equally nightmarish situations. 

I just expect it at this point, and if I find a good doctor I become a stalker


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I heard on the radio today that optimist have less need for treatment and better outcomes of treatment and then pessimist


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> So, how many of you who love veterans affairs have been injured either physically or mentally while in the service. If you use veterans admin for a toothache or headache you are generally fine.
> Although the worst dentist I've been to bragged about all the jaws he rebuilt while in the veterans hospital in Detroit (I think) it was a large veterans hospital in the eastern US). He was by far the roughest dentist I've been to in my life, he only lasted a few months here so I was not the only person unsatisfied with his work.
> 
> The poor people who have lost a limb or hearing or other major physical damage seem to have less praise for the veterans admin. I have a friend who was wounded twice in Vietnam, for years he self medicated with alcohol primarily, he has been clean and sober for 20 some years now. He now wants nothing to do with the US let alone the veterans bureaucracy. I've tried to talk him into at least applying for his US pension with no luck.


 By any chance was he a draftee ? I’ve noticed that most draftees harbor a certain resentment until this day.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

Nope not a draftee a Canadian citizen who volunteered.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

sniper69 said:


> Yep, I've given it thought, and it shows some of what is wrong with this country. Besides patriotism, the military has a lot to offer. I don't feel it is adequately explained to children, and many don't seem to realize that the military can be a good career choice.
> 
> As for my oldest joining - I was supportive of him joining the Air Force, but didn't force him to. But he did have a good example of what military service entails as his mom (my wife) served and retired from the Air Force. My BIL served and retired from the Navy, my ex-BIL served and retired from the Marines, and one of my nephew's is currently in the Army National Guard.


Unless the tests have changed, the MOS identification testing is called Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery or ASVAB.

MO_cow,

For decades that I am aware of, recruits from about 40 pounds underweight to 40 overweight for their frame all end up at mean weight range between the mess hall dietician's prepared menus combined with the drill instructor's physical training program during their basic training.

One of the guys I worked with decided to try to enlist after the first Gulf War started in the Operation Desert Shield / Operation Desert Storm period and the recruiter knowing he was about 25 pounds above the weight limit, referred him to a local weight loss program to get his weight down to the acceptable level to enlist so the mess hall and drill instructor programs during basic training could get him to the desired mean weight range.

He served two hitches to get the sign up bonus he wanted and about 20 years later is still holding his weight in the 175 range , but he has the advantage of having married a woman who was a mess hall cook during her service and jokingly said once that his wife grade jumped from mess hall specialist to commanding officer in just 8 months and the two words "I do." as far as he is concerned. LOL


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

ydderf said:


> Nope not a draftee a Canadian citizen who volunteered.


One of my best friends in the military was a Canadian volunteer to the USMC. We went through boot camp together, were roommates in MOS school and did our first "real" tour together as roommates. I just could not talk her out of saying "Eh" all the time, teach her to not say "sooory" or to stop her from wearing her red cowboy boots, even with dresses...and man she loved country music. Salt of the earth. It's so hard to look up old female friends because we tend to change our last names.

Off topic but you bring up memories. Not my fault


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Shrek said:


> Unless the tests have changed, the MOS identification testing is called Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery or ASVAB.
> 
> MO_cow,
> 
> ...


The underweight thing is a little different (at least in the time range you're talking about, I enlisted at the beginning of Desert Storm). There's no "minimum" weight requirement to go in, but once you're there they try to get you to minimum weight standards.

I was on double rations through boot camp. There was no dietician involved, unless by "dietician" you mean 3 drill instructors screaming at you while your entire platoon watches you try not to throw up as you shove more food than you can hold into your pie hole. Upside, I got full sugar coke and got to get dessert while most of the rest of them went through caffeine and sugar withdrawals. Downside, my mom said I looked fat at graduation


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Mish,
The way the vets I worked with at the defense contractor company told us during lunch at a mess hall style buffet restaurant, mess hall cooks since the mid 1970s have been trained similar to hospital cafeteria cooks. The vets also told us their instructors still give mess tray load orders as they watch their platoon go down the chow line.

The veteran who told us about that said he was one of the underweight ones and said some days, his D.I. made him feel like he should have gotten a second tray just to carry all the mashed potatoes and gravy he was told to get. LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Again, I say that we cannot afford to have our military used as a playground for social experiments.It's completely inappropriate and reduces combat effectiveness. As for having a voice, I have one and will use it.


Lol that’s pretty much all it’s ever been used for.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> Nope not a draftee a Canadian citizen who volunteered.


Wow that throws a different spin on your post .


ydderf said:


> I have a friend who was wounded twice in Vietnam, for years he self medicated with alcohol primarily, he has been clean and sober for 20 some years now. He now wants nothing to do with the US let alone the veterans bureaucracy. I've tried to talk him into at least applying for his US pension with no luck.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> Nope not a draftee a Canadian citizen who volunteered.


It would seem the word mercenary has fallen out of favor, is it not politically correct?


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

Mercenary implies already trained. My buddy was in his teens when he succumbed to the marine corps advertising.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Shrek said:


> Mish,
> The way the vets I worked with at the defense contractor company told us during lunch at a mess hall style buffet restaurant, mess hall cooks since the mid 1970s have been trained similar to hospital cafeteria cooks. The vets also told us their instructors still give mess tray load orders as they watch their platoon go down the chow line.
> 
> The veteran who told us about that said he was one of the underweight ones and said some days, his D.I. made him feel like he should have gotten a second tray just to carry all the mashed potatoes and gravy he was told to get. LOL


Yep, I would walk down the line with a either a DI walking behind me yelling at the servers to put more on my tray, or standing at the end of the line and yelling at me to go back for more of whatever was grossest or more fattening. Which is great, because who doesn't want the attention of everyone in the chow hall, including the dozen or so other DI's that are sitting there in really wonderful moods? Then I got to almost always be the last one still eating since I was the only one that _had_ to finish everything on my tray, which always gets you screamed at by random DI's, so that was a lot of fun, too.

Good times.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol that’s pretty much all it’s ever been used for.


Wrong again...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Wrong again...


Even including the battle of the Aleutions I think “pretty much”
Covers it
Care to point out where I might be mistaken.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> Mercenary implies already trained. My buddy was in his teens when he succumbed to the marine corps advertising.


Lol interesting way of putting it. 
I’ve seen a few Canadians in the US military . I’ve wondered what made them choose the US Army over the Canadian army ?
Did your friend give you any clues?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol interesting way of putting it.
> I’ve seen a few Canadians in the US military . I’ve wondered what made them choose the US Army over the Canadian army ?
> Did your friend give you any clues?


Because we're better..lol


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Even including the battle of the Aleutions I think “pretty much”
> Covers it
> Care to point out where I might be mistaken.


I could but I'd just be wasting my time...


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol interesting way of putting it.
> I’ve seen a few Canadians in the US military . I’ve wondered what made them choose the US Army over the Canadian army ?
> Did your friend give you any clues?


For my buddy it was a combination of being in trouble in high school and that many of us living in BC feel closer to the American way then we do to central Canada. He has family in Washington state, I think he was sent to an uncles ranch to get him away from certain influences up here.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

I think of all the movie coverage of US military from Hollywood as primarily advertising it wouldn't surprise me to find that the US military helps finance many Hollywood epics. Not all movies but the ones that show how,tough,wonderful, skilled and helpful the US military is even if they only make their equipment available for movie makers at little or no cost at some level it is a form of advertising.
Sorry but as I age I have become more cynical.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> So basically you have no logical argument you simply want to name call me for not agreeing with you?


Did my refusal to engage you in debate hurt your feelings? It would appear so. What name did I call you?
I have far more constructive ways to spend my time than to engage in a debate that will go nowhere.You have your views and I have mine.My views are highly unlikely to change as they've been formed over half a century of study,personal experience and family tradition . I'd wager that you too are unlikely to change your position.Therefore I'd consider it time wasted that could otherwise be applied to other pursuits more beneficial to me , my family,my community and and my nation.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

[QUOTE
*They report that the main causes of this situation are inadequate education, criminality, and obesity. Unchecked, the combined effect of these three conditions will continue to decrease the number of young adults eligible to serve in the United States military.*[/QUOTE]

Mmmmmm . . . . . . . I'm betting there are more problems than just the above three.

I'm betting many of today's youngsters have been coddled and helicoptered so much that mentally the armed forces would be too much for them. Think about all the college aged students who need a "therapy pet" to cope with life as well as the "safe spaces".

In my son's graduating high school class, there were at least 5 classmates that joined the armed forces. Two of them absolutely love it, and plan on making a career of it. Out of the other three classmates, I'm guessing there is one of them not entirely happy with their choice.

I can't even imagine if today's students were drafted like young men of the 1960's and 70's were and thrown into battle, I don't think many would be able to function.

I will admit I am NOT in the military - never was, and never even considered it.

Two acquaintances from my high school had it all figured out. They were enrolling in the army, going to work their 20 years, and then retire. They had it all "figured out". Neither made it to their 20 years. I think one didn't even finish their 4 year stint. The military was NOTHING like they imagined it would be.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Would re-examining some of your believes really be a waste of time?
> I’ve heard many times that the best way to learn something is to teach and I can’t think of a downside to that .


I'm no stranger to teaching it's been part of my life for many years. You stated "Lol that’s pretty much all it’s ever been used for." concerning the US Military and social experimentation. I said that you were wrong...while our military has far too often been the subject of social experiments, it has never been it's primary role in society nor should it ever be. Military service is a family tradition among my clan. We've had family members serve from the present conflicts all the way back to the earliest colonial militias here in North America.It has never been about social experimentation.Some of my family members are noted historical figures among them at least two that have received the Medal of Honor.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I'm no stranger to teaching it's been part of my life for many years. You stated "Lol that’s pretty much all it’s ever been used for." concerning the US Military and social experimentation. I said that you were wrong...while our military has far too often been the subject of social experiments, it has never been it's primary role in society nor should it ever be. Military service is a family tradition among my clan. We've had family members serve from the present conflicts all the way back to the earliest colonial militias here in North America.It has never been about social experimentation.Some of my family members are noted historical figures among them at least two that have received the Medal of Honor.


It sounds like you and I had family & ancestors in the same places.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Terri said:


> The standards used to be very much lower than they are today' People without a high school diploma were assigned tasks that did not need higher arithmetic skills, For every front line position there needs to be many people handling uniforms and driving trucks and cooking, and that was where the less qualified soldiers were put. My Father had a high school diploma but he only had vision in one eye, so they assigned him to a hospital to work. etc.
> 
> If the military lowers its standards to where they used to be, the problem would be solved.


Years ago (Vietnam war) People were needed beause of short supply of people to go in Millitary. Had a friend that wanted to go in but couldn't pass the tests to get in. He could not read. The military lower its standards to meet the need for more men. I filled out the papers for my friend and they took him in. He retired from the Military 2 years ago. When i went in they need men vietnam war. I went in at age 16 saying i was 17. They took me in with 2 years H.S. I was in for 4 years and came out with one year college. Military paid for my 4 years college after i got out of Military. The company i went to work for paid me to go to college for 6 more years while i worked full time. The goverment always raises the standard when not as many men ae needed.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Husband got in trouble at 18 teen. Judge gave him a choice..join the army or join the army. He stayed over 20 years


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The fact that the young are not "fit" for military service is not a new situation. This was the case because of the Great Depression which also focused on the young not being educated and not physically fit and healthy. Not obesity as it is today but the opposite - poor health and physical conditioning and malnutrition diseases because of the lack of food for so many for so many years. 
The Civilian Conservation Corps was created by Roosevelt and the camps administered by the military.

An implicit goal of the CCC was to restore morale in an era of 25% unemployment for all men and much higher rates for poorly educated teenagers. Jeffrey Suzik argues in "'Building Better Men': The CCC Boy and the Changing Social Ideal of Manliness" that the CCC provided an ideology of manly outdoor work to counter the Depression, as well as cash to help the family budget. Through a regime of heavy manual labor, civic and political education, and an all-male living and working environment, the CCC tried to build "better men" who would be economically independent and self-reliant. By 1939 there was a shift in the ideal from the hardy manual worker to the highly trained citizen soldier ready for war.

Of course today there are a lot of young people who have no intention of serving in the military because they have seen how the different governments have used the military, discarded the promises made to veterans and they would only consider being part of the defense of the nation at home. Their choice.


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## Amtown (Dec 29, 2020)

I wouldn't agree with this statement. Of course, the young generation is different from the previous one, but it is something normal. Still, there are a lot of strong guys, who want to be part of our famous military. My father is a solder and I see how powerful and severe he is. I also wanted to become a soldier, but now I am studying at the medical university and I hope to become a famous doctor. Something I learned from my father that is related to the military. For example, I use military time as he does. Also, I train every day, but not that much like him.


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