# horse kicking at husband



## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

I bought Alex as a 4 year old in fall of 2011 so she just turned 7 this May. She is my horse but both my husband and I have ridden her about equally. She has started to turn and kick at him when ever he goes to catch her, or move her to another pasture. He is to the point that he is very much afraid of her and threatened to sell her today. I'm currently 4.5 months pregnant so he has been doing more chores and no one has been riding since last fall. We have two other mares a 14 year old and an 18 year old. The 14 year old house is my husbands but he doesn't like her so I rode her every time last year that we went out.
She had gotten away from him today when he was moving her from one pasture to another and got in the hay field and he could not get her back. I walked out with the halter and put it on her no problem and lead her to the pasture.
He swears it's my fault since I boarded them at a place he didn't like over a year ago and suspects they were harassed though the kicking is new.
I have no idea how to fix this. I never was really around horses until I bough Alex but my husband grew up with them.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

I would take a good long whip and give him a DARN good whap with it across his butt everytime he turned it toward me. He would soon learn to face me.


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## rambotex (May 5, 2014)

rod44 said:


> I would take a good long whip and give him a DARN good whap with it across his butt everytime he turned it toward me. He would soon learn to face me.


That ^ but I'd put her in the Lot to do it. I'd then spend a little time with her grooming and just leading her around. Let him give her a bath with the water hose, a little one on one.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Sounds like the horse has got your husband's number. He needs to pen her up and bring her to Jesus.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

It is not an issue of being friends with the horse. It is an issue of 
"who is boss!".


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

People often worry that they will hurt a horse or they will have a horse lose respect for them if they discipline quickly and firmly. 

Those that do need to watch a herd of horses and pay close attention to pecking order, discipline, the severity of discipline and level of respect within the herd.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

I have one that every so often will kick in my direction. Never close enough to make contact, but just to test me. At that point in time, she gets moved all over the field and continues to move until she remembers that I'm the alpha. Out of my 3, she is the one that tests me the most. But she's also the middle horse in the herd, so I expect it.


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## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

I will have him work with her. She is by far the dominate horse out of the three, I think because she is half draft making her bigger and younger being in better shape. She is still great when I call she comes and she doesn't test me. I'm thinking this may be an escilation of her always trying to get though gates he opened in the past she is testing him and I think at this point winning.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

My mother as a teen had a horse that tried to kill her boy friend my dad. My grandfather tied the horse and had my dad do the sweet feed with a bucket then by hand, bring water and brush the horse it took 4 days and they became best friends, treats helped apples carrots sugar cubes ect... Grandfather went and got the horse and tied him then dad did the work and grandfather took the horse back each time over the days.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Re-home her. Your husband can't handle her and a kicking horse is really dangerous.

I'd beat her butt, but I can't recommend that a person who can't handle a dominant horse should take a whip and start whapping at the horse. It's possible to make the situation much worse.

This horse should be with an owner who knows how to discipline her and when. A horse that kicks in the pasture is no joking matter.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Coming back to add, it is a lot more involved than smacking her butt with a whip. My horses were all taught to face me upon command (in the round pen). They were taught to come to me when told (also in the round pen). The horse learns respect during the other ground work.

During training, they learned that when I said "quit" they had better by golly quit whatever it was that was displeasing me.

All that adds up to the horse never considering kicking in the pasture.

Discipline must be establish while you have control of the horse. That's hard to do while the horse is free in a large space.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Re-home her. Your husband can't handle her and a kicking horse is really dangerous.
> 
> I'd beat her butt, but I can't recommend that a person who can't handle a dominant horse should take a whip and start whapping at the horse. It's possible to make the situation much worse.
> 
> This horse should be with an owner who knows how to discipline her and when. A horse that kicks in the pasture is no joking matter.



This is great advice. Frankly the hard truth is if your hub who has grown up with horses hasn't learned by now how to handle this, he really doesn't have the personality whatever to do so. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

Horses kick at each other and the dominant ones kick "on top" as it were. Humans can kick by actually kicking (butt or lower back barrel--horses actually have areas they aim at), or by using an extention of a whip, rope, or that kung fu energy BAM--horses do this by a swing of the head and a forward "shove" and a vocalization. I've used this energy bam on just this sort of horse--he cocked, I "bammed" and he put that leg down and hasn't tried it since. You gotta really read the horses though and apply response in the same timing they do for the best effectiveness.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Ok this is just my thoughts on it. The very first time this horse did it..I can see being taken by surprise but Surely there were some signs previously that were missed. What I would have done (if I didn't have a whip in hand) is act like i was gonna kill that horse and I would have chased it til it was exhausted. Then from that time on I would have carried along lunge whip every time I had to be near that horse. If it pinned its ears at me I would have growled at the thing.If it turned its butt I would have tapped,,and if it kicked out I would have laid fire to it. 
I was caught one time unaware by a big yearling stud colt. ..who was truly out to nail me. It isn't a fun spot to be in even with a young un. I ended up retreating as he was out for blood. Immediately came back in to the corral, reset up the exact same situation and when he fired on me again I lit up his rear. You most likely have 1 shot at a crack...so make it a hard enough one they will not forget. Don't ---- around,,don't tap. Be fast and furious. Give it something to remember. Then I caught him, Calmly reset up the situation again..and never had another problem. You now have an ingrained pattern of behavior. It is not safe to be in kicking range..that is why God made the whip:>) good luck


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

One of my DD 4-H buddies was kicked in the head----she was killed. This is a serious problem.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I don't suggest using lunge whips for this kind of correction work. Usually the long lash is hard to manage and takes too long to get "where you need it working" when you swing. For me, the cheap lunge whips are heavy, top heavy with all that lash weight, so it makes them hard to use in any situation.

I use driving whips, which come in different stick lengths, with a variety of lash lengths to choose from. Pretty easy to carry, manage, with their light weight. Our stick length is usually about 5 1/2ft, with a 3ft cord lash, so is fast and easy to "put it where you want it" easily. Still keeps you way out of reach during horse kick or charge, to punish the bad behavior.

Husband might need some coaching during his attempts to catch, halter her, should she show this kind of aggression towards him. She MUST accept that he is her superior, back down from him, even when SHE wants to get thru the gate.

Another idea, is for him to do some ground work with her in a halter. Work her like you are training to show in Halter or Showmanship. She MUST walk steadily beside him, NOT ahead or behind, swinging out. She MUST match his speed, slow walk, fast walk, trot along side if he jogs. Stop with him, slow from trot to walk ON A LOOSE LEAD! 

I start this kind of work in a FITTED halter, with a chain end lead OVER horse nose. You want horse to move away from the pressure of chain, if he NEEDS to jerk on the lead. This could make her drop head, back up, which is a form of submission in horses. You start this work at a walk, bump her with the lead if she forges ahead, won't stop, so chain is FELT on the nose. Say the words, train horse to those words, like Walk, Trot, Whoa, as you do those actions.

Should horse ignore him, he should face her and back her up AWAY from him, so he is essentially "dominating her" by making her move back with the lead bumping nose and away from him. He is taking the place of dominant horse in the herd. Depending on how poorly or badly she is following direction, the backing can be 4-5 steps, or a LOT of backing, for punishment. Then husband turns forward again, gives word direction and they go again TOGETHER, trying to move as a team in leading.

This work of restablishing his DOMINANT herd position, working with her after haltering at the gate, only needs to be 5-15 minutes a day. She is out away from the other animals, just being moved around with him in control. Probably will be a fair amount of backing up at the beginning, while she learns to submit to him. He needs to say Whoa to stop the backing, be IN CONTROL of her actions. SHE gets no choices in walking, turning, trot or backing, has to do as requested as LONG AS he asks it! He probably won't need to "kill her to get obedience" but he MUST get her obeying him or she won't submit her herd position as being less than the human.

Having her in-hand with the rope, she can't run off and escape the lesson. I don't like how rope halters flop around the head on a horse, and you can't use a chain lead with rope halters. Chain lead over the nose is your "discipline tool" when you ask for obedience and don't get it. Can be an easy tool, just the bump keeps horse honest, or more severe use if horse is just bulling thru the speed requests or halts. THEN you make horse back up with that lead and chain, to get the brain thinking in another direction! Distraction with direction changes, often removes the disobedient thinking, doesn't happen again when handler moves horse forward again. You are WORKING TOWARDS horse leading on a loose rope, so don't keep pulling it tight. Give horse the chance to make mistake, bump the chain for reminder, back to loose lead. If horse THEN tries to pull, correction with chain, some backing steps are called for, then forward ON LOOSE LEAD to try again.

I would suggest he wears his safety equipment to work with her EVERY time, good boots with grippy soles, gloves, helmet if you can get him in one. Lead rope on chain SHOULD be longer, soft cotton with knot at end. A 10-12ft length of rope attached to the chain, should she be a pig and rear. Length lets him move away, pull on her without losing her. 

You have said it is a problem only between him and her, so HE has to do the work to fix that kind of horse thinking with her. Won't get better if he won't do the work with her. This is only going to get worse if he doesn't fix the problem now. You are pregnant, stay OUT of the situation! You can stand on the sidelines, spot her signs of aggression for him to correct if needed with the whip, catching her at the gate. Females seem to "read" horses better than guys, so he may be totally missing her signals to respond in a timely fashion. THAT will get him hurt.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Discipline must be establish while you have control of the horse. That's hard to do while the horse is free in a large space.


This x100. There is no "fix" to the situation in the pasture, and bringing a whip with you is more likely to cause an injury to the handler, and/or create a new problem (for example, horses running away first, kicking second). Losing patience or temper with a horse is usually just an exercise in frustration (or worse) because you'll never catch them.

I try never to "catch" my horses in the pasture. "Catching" - when necessary - is done in the small paddock by the barn; so, in general, I do my best to plan ahead to have them in their smaller space so that I can work with them...and they know that eventually, they will be caught so they don't usually put up a fuss. It's not a big deal to me that my horses might not willingly walk to my outstretched halter for a ride instead of preferring to stand and eat hay with their buddies...but after a minute of trying to hide, they will stand nicely to be haltered.

But kicking is an entirely different situation. This is definitely a total lack of respect, and probably needs some serious refreshing in closer quarters. Not being willing to be led through gates nicely is not an option...so some groundwork with discipline needs to happen. Would probably be a good idea to consider bringing in a trainer for advice.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

In a pinch I have used a long length of very springy, green privet. Strip it clean. You have good control of it, you can stay 5 - 6 ft away, and one swat would be memorable. I once had a rude, ill-tempered mare here (not mine) who had no qualms about kicking out at people. She could do a pretty good side-kick too. She turned her butt and kicked out at me once at feeding time and was introduced to the privet since it was really handy. The next time she started to turn her butt...whap. She quit turning her butt to me in rapid fashion. I also told the owner shortly thereafter to come and get her. She was so ill-tempered she really needed to be euthed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

jennigrey said:


> Sounds like the horse has got your husband's number. He needs to pen her up and bring her to Jesus.


Yup, she needs a "come to Jesus" meeting. It really doesn't matter what he does except he must make her move and listen to him.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Stonybrook said:


> In a pinch I have used a long length of very springy, green privet. Strip it clean. You have good control of it, you can stay 5 - 6 ft away, and one swat would be memorable. I once had a rude, ill-tempered mare here (not mine) who had no qualms about kicking out at people. She could do a pretty good side-kick too. She turned her butt and kicked out at me once at feeding time and was introduced to the privet since it was really handy. The next time she started to turn her butt...whap. She quit turning her butt to me in rapid fashion. I also told the owner shortly thereafter to come and get her. She was so ill-tempered she really needed to be euthed.


I have never had a horse that was so bad I would consider euthanizing it, and I have had the worst of the worst on my ranch. There is always a way in, it has to be established from the start that nothing is permissible, not one little hump up in the rear end, no butts to me, nothing. My horses run as a herd on 175 acres and I have 20 head. If one of them doesn't obey me, none of them will, so every horse I own absolutely has no choice but to allow me to walk up to them in any situation and halter/lead them away. From my lead mare and lead gelding on down the chain, every single horse knows better than to disobey me, but that has come with almost never using anything but voice, body posture, and hands on, hands on, hands on. A smack on the chest or rump with my hand (which they equate to a hoof) qgets their attention nicely, but shouldn't have to be done often if the owner is a confident handler. Even in a bad storm, mine will come to me and allow me to take them safely into the barn should it be necessary. I am NOT trying to brag, I simply am stating that horses have to be trained to obey their owners no matter what the situation may be.

I liked the reply that told specifically how to manage an obstinate horse by backing, moving their hind quarters, etc. Good advice, but if the owner isn't knowledgeable about the correct way to do those exercises and isn't effectively getting their point across, it can make the horse that much worse.

If this person has a mare that is unmanageable, they need to re-home that mare to a more confident home before someone gets hurt.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

aoconnor1 said:


> I have never had a horse that was so bad I would consider euthanizing it, and I have had the worst of the worst on my ranch.
> 
> If this person has a mare that is unmanageable, they need to re-home that mare to a more confident home before someone gets hurt.


Guess I will have to disagree with you on this one. Sometimes the world is better off with that dangerous horse gone, euthanized, before it can hurt another person.

Would be wonderful if someone like yourself would hold up your hand to take these horses, but they have no place else to go. They have gotten to this point some how, are beyond fixing, will NEVER be trustworthy. And it isn't the experienced folk who get hurt, it is some kid "who will love them enough" to break the problem. Or a new horse owner who read too many books, saw movies, BELIEVES that all equines can be "saved" from their bad ways. These folks get BADLY hurt, KILLED, trying to be nice to a horse who SHOULD have been put down and was not. Just got handed on along to some NEW ignorant person they hurt. I will put them in the ground before passing this horse along, NEVER going to be guilty of hurting some person with a bad acting horse.

Those wonderful Disney movies, story books are labeled FICTION for a reason, they were just someone's imaginative tale!! The chance of such a horse changing as told in the story is SO SMALL as to be impossible in real life. But folks never give up the HOPE that THEY could be that person to "save the poor horse" from his evil ways with love. (Excuse me while I barf here...) I know more than a couple people who tried this. One of them ended up brain damaged, never truly recovered to her old self. Another thought she had "fixed the horse" until it decided not to cooperate any more and threw her down a mountain, with broken bones, including her neck. She recovered, but it sure took a while. And there are other nasty stories about people I know, who thought they could "fix" such horses, got badly hurt instead.

Doesn't matter whose "fault" made horse this way, horse gets confirmed into a reliably BAD behavior and horse suffers the results. You can seldom develop any trust in horse changes, horse reverts to bad when pushed again or taken out of that setting. Few folks can keep a decorative horse that is dangerously unsafe to handle and surely no one else wants it either. And if YOU think you can save them all? They have a saying for that, "No good deed goes unpunished". Seen it happen over and over to the kindly folks getting hurt trying to handle such rogue horses, cost of Vet, repair or paying for damages horse cost, will put them in the poor house. 

There have ALWAYS been horses who won't change, must dominate their setting, maybe mind is wired wrong, and they are not safe to have around. They need to get put down, despite their pretty faces, big brown eyes, because they WILL continue their bad ways and keep hurting folks.

Kind of like meeting a rabid animal, it needs killing RIGHT NOW before you get hurt. This is real life, not a storybook.


The OP's horse is not nearly this bad, but she could be if not corrected pretty quick. Horse is made to move up in the herd with physical action, intimidation, which the mare has worked on husband. She is his superior in their herd, because HE gets out of HER way, instead of the other way around.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I've been reading this and thinking about it. I'm thinking the husband does need to work with the horse and he needs someone to teach him how to do it safely and effectively. All the advice online is great, but without a practical lesson with someone that is there to correct his timing and how him how to administer any corrections properly, its likely not to be safe or effective. Maybe a good trainer to work with him and the horse? 

Also, often, even when the spouse is knowledgeable, the other spouse doesn't receive correction well from them, or doesn't fully respect the knowledge from the one that does know. It's just kind of how we are


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

GrannyCarol said:


> I've been reading this and thinking about it. I'm thinking the husband does need to work with the horse and he needs someone to teach him how to do it safely and effectively. All the advice online is great, but without a practical lesson with someone that is there to correct his timing and how him how to administer any corrections properly, its likely not to be safe or effective. Maybe a good trainer to work with him and the horse?




Suppose having a trainer might be nice but a person can figure stuff out on their own and safely to boot.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

goodhors said:


> Guess I will have to disagree with you on this one. Sometimes the world is better off with that dangerous horse gone, euthanized, before it can hurt another person.
> 
> Would be wonderful if someone like yourself would hold up your hand to take these horses, but they have no place else to go. They have gotten to this point some how, are beyond fixing, will NEVER be trustworthy. And it isn't the experienced folk who get hurt, it is some kid "who will love them enough" to break the problem. Or a new horse owner who read too many books, saw movies, BELIEVES that all equines can be "saved" from their bad ways. These folks get BADLY hurt, KILLED, trying to be nice to a horse who SHOULD have been put down and was not. Just got handed on along to some NEW ignorant person they hurt. I will put them in the ground before passing this horse along, NEVER going to be guilty of hurting some person with a bad acting horse.
> 
> ...


I have 3 right now like that. One with no spacial memory. He was a bucking horse that was in some sort of horrific accident that broke his right hind just below the hock. They left it undoctored but would hot shot him to move him. I received as a last chance rescue and it has been 3 years of watchfulness and caution. He has no short term memory, but he has learned who I am and lets me tend to him when needed. I have yet to be able to trim his feet. Then there's Dinah, a 12 year old mare that was used for tripping. Broke her left front fetlock but never doctored it. Mean as a snake and very sick when I picked her up, now she lets me pasture catch her and doctor her as needed. There's Sugar, she is 30 and came to me untouched and with a 1 month old colt at her side. As emaciated as I have ever dealt with, and absolutely untouchable. She lets me handle her now, but if anyone else tries to touch her she will bite or cow kick them if I am not holding her and can correct her. 

I have 17 more stories to tell if you'd like? I have taken in rescues that sheriffs from 2 counties have asked me to take. My vets call me if they get a horse in that needs hard core rescue. My neighbors know who to call if they need horse help. So here's my hand raised, bring it on. Almost every horse I have was a very tough case when they arrived, with varying levels of abuse/neglect/malnutrition.

My point was that most often, a horse can recover from abuse or mishandling if given the opportunity and is handled by someone who can turn them around mentally, emotionally, and physically. Sure, at some point I will come across a rogue horse too rough to turn, but that isn't the case with the mare in this situation and my recommendation was to re-home to someone who can correct her before she hurts someone. Do all of my horses come around to where I can ride them? Obviously not. But the ones that don't are here for life, and I can care for them properly without being injured. The ones that turn around, I trust them completely. They are not what they were, in any situation. If they haven't turned enough to trust them, I don't get on them. But the horse that this conversation is about isn't one like that, she has developed a bad habit towards a person who isn't confident and knowledgeable enough to stop the behavior, and even with a trainer helping, would still lack confidence enough to handle the mare well. There is no fault here, just a situation that could be turned around in a different environment.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

goodhors said:


> Guess I will have to disagree with you on this one. Sometimes the world is better off with that dangerous horse gone, euthanized, before it can hurt another person.
> 
> There have ALWAYS been horses who won't change, must dominate their setting, maybe mind is wired wrong, and they are not safe to have around. They need to get put down, despite their pretty faces, big brown eyes, because they WILL continue their bad ways and keep hurting folks.
> 
> ...


And I will agree, at some point I will probably run across one I can't change and will have to put down. But I live in the real life of rescue, not a fairytale storybook; every single horse I have has been a rescue of one kind or another; either abuse, neglect, starvation, or injury. You name it and I have either had it or have it. In a storybook they would all be fat and happy and live happily ever after under saddle with a cute little ponytailed girl galloping along joyfully through a beautiful green pasture. In the real world I have vet bills, no vacations, feed and supply bills, callouses, bruises, tears, and a lot of frustration at times. But then one will turn around, and it is all entirely worth every ounce of everything I put into what I do. So please don't assume I am some bleeding heart out to save the world, I am not. But I am a damned good horsewoman who has put my life into taking and repairing all the crap that other people have done to magnificent creatures that need strength and care, and boundaries and correction. And I am the alpha mare hands down. I run my herd, they don't run me.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

aoconner1 - From what you say the ones you turn around are good for you, not for everyone. Unfortunately there are few people able to do what you've done for them and those horses really shouldn't be in the hands of anyone less skilled than you are - they'd be better off euthanized if a home like yours can't be found. Most people would just get hurt, possibly badly, trying to do what you can do. 

It is possible, even likely, that this horse would do better in a different home. It is also possible that the husband could learn how to handle her and to have the confidence he needs to straighten out the problems and work through them. I'm sure the OP's family can make whatever decision will be right for them, certainly there is quite a bit for them to think about.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> aoconner1 - From what you say the ones you turn around are good for you, not for everyone. Unfortunately there are few people able to do what you've done for them and those horses really shouldn't be in the hands of anyone less skilled than you are - they'd be better off euthanized if a home like yours can't be found. Most people would just get hurt, possibly badly, trying to do what you can do.
> 
> It is possible, even likely, that this horse would do better in a different home. It is also possible that the husband could learn how to handle her and to have the confidence he needs to straighten out the problems and work through them. I'm sure the OP's family can make whatever decision will be right for them, certainly there is quite a bit for them to think about.


Yes, I agree. And I am sorry if I came off wrong, it just irritates me that the poor folks in this situation have a horse that could be a good girl under the right circumstances, but they don't have anyone nearby that can help the husband learn confidence and handling enough to get the mare going in the right direction. I feel for the people, it is a hard decision to make to place an animal in another home where it can be dealt with better. It makes a person even less confident in their own ability, when in reality they may just not have had a strong willed alpha mare before and could learn, but have no help. 

My heart goes out to them, and if I could I would help them in some way besides talking...so when I posted that the mare needs to be handed off to someone capable of getting her turned around, that was the only help I could give them in writing. Without a trainer on hand, all the written lessons in town won't help them really understand the horses behavior and how to correct it.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I agree, a good trainer makes a huge difference. More than the dogs I usually deal with, a horse really can be dangerous just if you make a mistake and it walks on you. I realized reading the posts that most of the advice isn't very safe, including some of mine, unless you have skilled help to teach you how to do it well and right. 

Yes, I know you can figure things out on your own or with a book or videos, its still more risky than doing it with qualified help. I find for myself that, although I've worked with animals all my life, when I try a new method of training, I learn a lot faster and better if I see it being done and if I have someone watch me and tell me how to improve my technique, esp. at first.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

aoconnor1 said:


> I have 3 right now like that. One with no spacial memory. He was a bucking horse that was in some sort of horrific accident that broke his right hind just below the hock. They left it undoctored but would hot shot him to move him. I received as a last chance rescue and it has been 3 years of watchfulness and caution. He has no short term memory, but he has learned who I am and lets me tend to him when needed. I have yet to be able to trim his feet. Then there's Dinah, a 12 year old mare that was used for tripping. Broke her left front fetlock but never doctored it. Mean as a snake and very sick when I picked her up, now she lets me pasture catch her and doctor her as needed. There's Sugar, she is 30 and came to me untouched and with a 1 month old colt at her side. As emaciated as I have ever dealt with, and absolutely untouchable. She lets me handle her now, but if anyone else tries to touch her she will bite or cow kick them if I am not holding her and can correct her.
> 
> I have 17 more stories to tell if you'd like? I have taken in rescues that sheriffs from 2 counties have asked me to take. My vets call me if they get a horse in that needs hard core rescue. My neighbors know who to call if they need horse help. So here's my hand raised, bring it on. Almost every horse I have was a very tough case when they arrived, with varying levels of abuse/neglect/malnutrition.
> 
> My point was that most often, a horse can recover from abuse or mishandling if given the opportunity and is handled by someone who can turn them around mentally, emotionally, and physically. Sure, at some point I will come across a rogue horse too rough to turn, but that isn't the case with the mare in this situation and my recommendation was to re-home to someone who can correct her before she hurts someone. Do all of my horses come around to where I can ride them? Obviously not. But the ones that don't are here for life, and I can care for them properly without being injured. The ones that turn around, I trust them completely. They are not what they were, in any situation. If they haven't turned enough to trust them, I don't get on them. But the horse that this conversation is about isn't one like that, she has developed a bad habit towards a person who isn't confident and knowledgeable enough to stop the behavior, and even with a trainer helping, would still lack confidence enough to handle the mare well. There is no fault here, just a situation that could be turned around in a different environment.


I am thinking of a story I read back in the 90's in Western Horseman. It was about a girl who father ran I believe an action yard or maybe it was a stockyard. Maybe in Texas? Anyway, her father ended up with this rouge horse. It maimed a number of men and her father forbid her to even go near that horse.

She felt drawn to the horse and started riding it behind her fathers back. She and that horse went on to become world champions. 

Everybody said that horse needed to be put down. The right person though brought that horse to its full potential.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

mrs whodunit said:


> I am thinking of a story I read back in the 90's in Western Horseman. It was about a girl who father ran I believe an action yard or maybe it was a stockyard. Maybe in Texas? Anyway, her father ended up with this rouge horse. It maimed a number of men and her father forbid her to even go near that horse.
> 
> She felt drawn to the horse and started riding it behind her fathers back. She and that horse went on to become world champions.
> 
> Everybody said that horse needed to be put down. The right person though brought that horse to its full potential.


What a great story It truly amazes me what can bring a horse to it's proverbial knees.

I have a huge OTTB gelding that is very tough on experienced riders. If you don't know what you are doing entirely, he won't do it at all and lets you know how truly dumb you really are. But I put my 6 year old deaf grand daughter on him, and he literally tiptoes around the pasture with her. He does every single thing she asks him to do unless it is unsafe, then he won't do it He will walk, turn, back, whoa, and trot, but if she asks more of him he just quietly ignores her. If I get on him, he is on his toes, eager and ready to rock and roll...a totally different horse. Sometimes, the love of a little girl works wonders on those big ol' hearts


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

mrs whodunit said:


> I am thinking of a story I read back in the 90's in Western Horseman. It was about a girl who father ran I believe an action yard or maybe it was a stockyard. Maybe in Texas? Anyway, her father ended up with this rouge horse. It maimed a number of men and her father forbid her to even go near that horse.
> 
> She felt drawn to the horse and started riding it behind her fathers back. She and that horse went on to become world champions.
> 
> Everybody said that horse needed to be put down. The right person though brought that horse to its full potential.



I think I read that same story in WH, though horse was not "that bad", just pretty "western" for modern times. Can't have him hurting the help! It would be Charmayne James and Scamper, who were World Champion Barrel Racing winners for like 10 years in a row. She was NOT that young, though not 20, and VERY experienced with MANY horses at her young age. Not a typical horse-loving kid taking on an "outlaw" horse, but someone who KNEW how to work with horses that had attitude. AND the horse went on to work for a living with HER, was NOT just a pasture decoration. Would he have been able to do the same job with another person? We will never know, she never let others use him as far as I know, even at home. Owned him until he died last year, at the age of about 30.

My issue with these bad-attitude horses, is that "rescuer" usually can not get the horse back into some kind of productive use, because they are not dependable horses. You do not know when they will blow or what damage will happen then. Unsafe to all around at that point. If a person wants to have a herd of such horses, that is fine. But few horses end up with that luxury, just too expensive to own and keep them. As mentioned, few people have the experience, patience, to get any kind of rehabbing done with those horses, accept that not kicking your head off in the field is "as good as they will EVER be" and let it go. Great for those people who can keep them, but few horses end in those circumstances to live out their lives.

Just a fact of life that most horses will be bought and sold several times during their lives. Horse is expected to put up with their owner, whether owner has horse skills or not, with no objections. Do as owner wants by riding along quietly or racing as fast as horse can go, despite bad tack, lack of rider skills. If horse DOES argue, their treatment goes downhill, to be "corrected" by any means possible. Not nice, not kind, but human trumps horse, in EVERY case, to keep human as safe as possible. If horse is going to threaten, follow up with physical harm to a person, that horse MUST be dealt with, and usually is going to get the worst of it. No place for such animals in most settings for horse owners.

Personally, if a horse is not willing to be a "good horse" for us, he is not worth owning. I will deal with some small stuff, a few bad habits and correct them. But there are WAY TOO MANY good horses around to put up with a bad actor. Have had those too, they didn't stay long, not worth the grief they caused. Expectations here are VERY HIGH in behavior, manners on a lead rope, riding skills and Driving skills that we ask of our horses. They need to "just deal with it!" and keep going quietly. If horse doesn't meet those expectations, they move on. We try to find them good places with buyers, not dumping them on the unknowing people. Horses we sold have all apparently been excellent for those buyers, they call to tell us about them and how well they are doing. Horses just did not meet OUR wants. We find if you don't ask for better behavior, better effort in work, horse doesn't try to improve. They are as lazy as anyone! Those who make the grade, are here for life. And sometimes it feels like we people are the "servants" doing everything for the equines!! 

Glad that aoconner1 can provide a place for some of those bad attitude horses, not get hurt dealing with them as pasture pets. Even gets to use some of them for riding. Just not what most horse folks can manage, accept horse as being "only ornamental" as an owner. Horse needs to "give back" in pleasure using it, being pleasant to be around, or they are a burden to their owner. Such animals tend to get poorly cared for when they get dealt with. As a probable danger to any handler, they need to be put down for people safety, since FEW people have enough skill to deal with such horses in any fashion. Euthanasia is kinder to the horse than being kept so poorly, abused when handled by fearful people.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

aoconnor1 said:


> Yes, I agree. And I am sorry if I came off wrong, it just irritates me that the poor folks in this situation have a horse that could be a good girl under the right circumstances, but they don't have anyone nearby that can help the husband learn confidence and handling enough to get the mare going in the right direction. I feel for the people, it is a hard decision to make to place an animal in another home where it can be dealt with better. It makes a person even less confident in their own ability, when in reality they may just not have had a strong willed alpha mare before and could learn, but have no help.


 Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything that suggested they had no local options for help. I think most of us would agree that what is needed in this scenario is a trainer's assistance...a second set of experienced eyes to identify exactly what is going on, and the experience to help the husband deal appropriately with the horse.

I think in many cases (not necessarily the OP, but perhaps some of the horses you have worked with) is that the owners think they can handle the situation, or look for a quick fix - and simply create new problems. Hopefully the OP will see that this is a situation that might be nipped in the bud if addressed NOW....so spend some money on a few sessions with a trainer and it will be money well spent. Wait until the horse is unmanageable, and it gets harder and more expensive to bring it back, if even possible.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

offthegrid said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything that suggested they had no local options for help. I think most of us would agree that what is needed in this scenario is a trainer's assistance...a second set of experienced eyes to identify exactly what is going on, and the experience to help the husband deal appropriately with the horse.
> 
> I think in many cases (not necessarily the OP, but perhaps some of the horses you have worked with) is that the owners think they can handle the situation, or look for a quick fix - and simply create new problems. Hopefully the OP will see that this is a situation that might be nipped in the bud if addressed NOW....so spend some money on a few sessions with a trainer and it will be money well spent. Wait until the horse is unmanageable, and it gets harder and more expensive to bring it back, if even possible.


This is exactly right, and I would think there is a good trainer at least somewhat in their area...certainly didn't mean imply there wasn't! They can correct this issue with a good trainer on hand, and hopefully continue with what they have learned after the trainer is done. It would be so much better if the scenario you present could happen...trainer comes, helps, corrects. That would be awesome


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## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

Thank you for all the advice. We have had her for almost three years and she has only been kicking in the last three weeks. (It happened three times each time it was when my husband was tired and trying to deal with moving three horses.) We are not afraid to get help and I have been moving the girls around this week so he is not giving her a chance to misbehave until we can figure out what to do. 
The gate thing has been that she like to go though an open gate he has always been bad about closing the gates when he drives though a pasture or pen he has let my cows out tons of times and she loves to run though an open gate. 
I think his mother had picked very well trained older horses so he hasn't really had to deal with one that wasn't deadbroke and older. It also was many years between his horses at home and us buying them.


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