# Over Fathers Day me and men relation were talking about guns and stuff



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Sisters SIL came up with a question as to, Does conceiled carry, mean that one cannot see it being carried at all, say like a 25 cal, OR does it mean that you can also carry like say me with my Navies with a duster over them, but they being plainly outlined as being inside the coat. We had different openions on that. Thought it would be something to post here.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Under a vest, jacket, etc.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

FarmboyBill said:


> Sisters SIL came up with a question as to, Does conceiled carry, mean that one cannot see it being carried at all, say like a 25 cal, OR does it mean that you can also carry like say me with my Navies with a duster over them, but they being plainly outlined as being inside the coat. We had different openions on that. Thought it would be something to post here.


It may depend on what your state says, I couldn't find any definition for what is "concealed" under Missouri law, but in general the definition is this.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/concealed-weapons/



> The following is a state law defining a concealed weapon:
> 
> 62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed. A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible. A firearm or dangerous weapon is considered concealed if it is not secured, and is worn under clothing or carried in a bundle that is held or carried by the individual, or transported in a vehicle under the individual's control or direction and available to the individual, including beneath the seat or in a glove compartment. A firearm or dangerous weapon is not considered concealed if it is:
> 
> ...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I couldn't find any definition for what is "concealed" *under Missouri law*


It wouldn't really matter since Bill doesn't live in MO.

Get a permit and you're covered either way

https://www.oklahoma-criminal-defense.com/concealed-carry-gun-laws
*"Licensing & Permitting Process*
In order to carry a concealed weapon in the state of OK you'll need to meet *all* of the following requirements:

You must 21 year old or older
You must be a citizen of the U.S.A.
You are required to be a resident of the state of Oklahoma
You must have a valid/current Oklahoma driver license or other eligible state photo ID card.
*Read and demonstrate an understanding of the Oklahoma Self Defense Act (OSDA)*
*You must complete an approved training class for firearms or obtain an exemption*
You must not have any convictions for the following offenses;
assault and battery, which caused serious physical injury to the victim, or any second or subsequent assault and battery conviction;
aggravated assault and battery;
stalking;
a violation relating to the Protection from Domestic Abuse Act, or any violation of a victim protection order of another state;
any conviction relating to illegal drug use or possession; or
an act of domestic abuse or domestic assault and battery.

You must not have two or more convictions for public intoxication in last 3 years.
Must not have 2 or more convictions for DUI and/or Intoxication in last 3 years.
You have no significant character defects as shown by a misdemeanor criminal record indicating habitual criminal activity."
https://www.oklahoma-criminal-defense.com/media/open-carry-gun-laws-in-oklahoma
Open Carry Gun Laws in Oklahoma On November 1, 2012, Oklahoma officially became an "open carry" state. ... The Oklahoma Self Defense Act allows open carry of handguns only, and these must be smaller than 16 inches and utilize .45 caliber or smaller ammunition. 

*Anyone who carries a gun must have a valid handgun license issued by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation (OSBI).*
*
*


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It wouldn't really matter since Bill doesn't live in MO.


That's two mistakes so far today.
I got Bill confused with Big Rock Pile, or someone else from there.
The important thing is you caught it though........



> Get a permit and you're covered either way
> 
> https://www.oklahoma-criminal-defense.com/concealed-carry-gun-laws
> *"Licensing & Permitting Process*
> ...



And while that also correct, it wasn't the question he was pondering.
It turns out that OK DOES have a legal definition, it's basically the same as I quoted.



> 21 O.S 1290.2 – Definitions
> A. As Used In the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act:
> 
> 1. "Concealed handgun" means a loaded or unloaded pistol or handgun not openly visible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person;



While it may make no difference it most states, I found something I've never heard of that is addressed by a few.......the very question he asked about.

https://www.usacarry.com/printing-concealed-carry/


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

When your concealed firearm is visible via outline beneath your shirt I believe the term is "printing".
Depends on your state and how scared the local is that realizes you are carrying.
In Chicago the police may have you face down over the hood of a car, in Tupelo he may ask you what your favorite caliber is.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If it can be seen through your clothes, it isn't concealed. In some places you can be charged with brandishing a firearm if it prints through your clothes.

I have carried concealed in places where printing through your clothes would get you shot dead on the spot. So it all depends upon your circumstances, and location.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Related question. Is carrying in a Sneaky Pete holster considered open carry or concealed carry?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> And while that also correct, it wasn't the question he was pondering.
> It turns out that *OK DOES have a legal definition*, it's basically the same as I quoted.


That's all irrelevant since getting a permit covers you either way, and there's no legal way to carry without a permit.



farmrbrown said:


> While it may *make no difference* it most states, I found something I've never heard of that is addressed by a few.......the very question he asked about.
> 
> https://www.usacarry.com/printing-concealed-carry/


A the required permit in OK makes that irrelevant also.

Concealed carry license holders don't need to be concerned about the minutia of laws in other states. They only need to know what rules apply to their state, and which states grant them reciprocal rights.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> Related question. Is carrying in a Sneaky Pete holster considered open carry or concealed carry?


That would be "concealed" here since nothing about the pouch tells you the shape of the object inside. A holster with a flap that completely covers the gun but still lets you see the shape would be considered "open" carry. Both would be legal here, but open carry requires no special permit.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The resolution of this whole conversation is dependent on the state and city.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Bear, Ive had a permit for around 8yrs.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Cabin Fever said:


> Related question. Is carrying in a Sneaky Pete holster considered open carry or concealed carry?


Same as a “fanny pack” carry or backpack carry. Sneaky Pete looks like a cellphone case.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> Same as a “fanny pack” carry or backpack carry. Sneaky Pete looks like a cellphone case.


I've often thought about getting one and removing the "SP" logo and replacing it with an Apple computers logo.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just a thought, our youth pastor has a new iphone and he purchased a protective case that looks like the phone is damaged.
Keeps honest people honest I suppose.
Maybe a "Nokia 5110" logo on that SP might also keep sticky fingers at a distance.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> Just a thought, our youth pastor has a new iphone and he purchased a protective case that looks like the phone is damaged.
> Keeps honest people honest I suppose.
> Maybe a "Nokia 5110" logo on that SP might also keep sticky fingers at a distance.


Or, maybe a Red Cross emblem. People might think you're carrying insulin, epi-pens, or other first aid supplies.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"King James Version"


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> Bear, Ive had a permit for around 8yrs.


You have a concealed carry permit?
What type of pistol did you use to qualify?


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Michigan has open carry so printing isn't a problem.

 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> Related question. Is carrying in a Sneaky Pete holster considered open carry or concealed carry?


A guy I shoot league with sometimes has a sneaky pete like holster , his son makes the decals / lables for many things and made him up very professional looking medical label for his. is it a heart monitor or a gun , the world may never know.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

concealed vs open 

any time the gun is hidden from plain sight by clothing or other means it is considered concealed.

there are most definitely states that do not restrict concealed carry to permit holders , permit-less or constitutional carry states.

others like WIS you can open carry legally with no license or permit but your shirt becomes un-tucked and covers the gun and you are in violation.

one could and some have successfully argued that if the cop can see any part of the gun to know it is a gun it is not concealed but that is a risk to take,
some states have no printing laws although most have done away with them.

the official answer is it changes by state but if you can plainly see gun and holster it is most definitely open carry.

you do often hear very uniformed people (see I am keeping that nice) who see some one very plainly open carrying shirt tucked in , gun on belt in a belt holster fully exposed not even a wrinkle of the shirt covering the grip at all say oh thats that concealed carry , no you very under educated person that is open carry. I have been concealed carrying in front of you for the last 20 minutes and you haven't nor will you see a thing or even think I might could have a gun.


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## markt1 (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm now in PA with a "license-to-carry-firearms" where I have carried a (45 caliber) stainless 1911 on a belt loop holster under a loose shirt for many years without any problems. Once in line at a Starbucks on the turnpike some guy backed into me with his elbow hitting my shirt over the pistol. His eyes went big when he realized what had happened and couldn't apologize fast enough In West Virginia where my new place is, if you're 21 the constitution is your carry "permit".


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> ...Concealed carry license holders don't need to be concerned about the minutia of laws in other states. They only need to know what rules apply to their state, and which states grant them reciprocal rights.


If a CCW holder is concerned about reciprocity, then they do need to be concerned with the minutia of CCW laws in those other states. Reciprocity generally recognizes your out-of-state permit, but only according to the laws of the honoring state. 

I got turned on to an app (iPhone and android) called CCW (http://rightapp.net/wp/ccw/)
It costs a couple dollars, but is extremely handy if you travel much. 

You input which state(s) you have permits from, and it builds a map of which states you’re covered in. 

If you click on a state, it gives you a high-level overview of that state’s laws: can you carry in a state park... drinking establishment... do you have a duty to report... etc. 

You can drill deeper on each state’s page, and it will tell you about duty to retreat laws, if there are any restrictions on magazine capacities, ammo types, rifle configurations etc. It will even pull up the full text of a state’s gun/carry laws so you can read it for yourself, and not have to just take the app’s word for it- it’ll even let you print it to carry along with you, if you feel the need. 

If you haven’t opened it that day, and have an internet connection, it will ask to update itself with any changes to the law that have occurred since you were last in it. 

For the $2-3 they charge for it, it’s a no-brainer. You’ll spend at least $2-3 of your time on Google just looking for the info (you hope is current) on one other state before you enter it with your CW. With the app, you can read up, just as much as you think you want to know, about every state your road-trip is going to take you through.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> If a CCW holder is concerned about reciprocity, then they do need to be concerned with the minutia of CCW laws in those other states.


I don't foresee Bill doing a lot of traveling and carrying concealed.
The last time he talked about carrying, he was considering a cap and ball revolver.
(if he could find the nipples)

Context matters.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't foresee Bill doing a lot of traveling and carrying concealed.
> The last time he talked about carrying, he was considering a cap and ball revolver.
> (if he could find the nipples)
> 
> Context matters.


I suppose context does matter... and the context was “concealed carry license holder*s*”, not just “Bill”...



Bearfootfarm said:


> ...Concealed carry license holders don't need to be concerned about the minutia of laws in other states. They only need to know what rules apply to their state, and which states grant them reciprocal rights.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I suppose context does matter... and the context was “concealed carry license holder*s*”, not just “Bill”...


It was also a response to another poster who was talking about lots of other states that really didn't matter, since that conversation was also about Bill.

There are plenty of free sites where one can easily find the laws for any state to which they might travel while carrying.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The last time he talked about carrying, he was considering a cap and ball revolver.
> (if he could find the nipples)Context matters.


Well that's like taking an er, uh, cap and ball to a gunfight, or something...


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It was also a response to another poster who was talking about lots of other states that really didn't matter, since that conversation was also about Bill.
> 
> There are plenty of free sites where one can easily find the laws for any state to which they might travel while carrying.


Wow.


Given that others were participating in the discussion, and you DID say:


Bearfootfarm said:


> Concealed carry license holder_*s*_ don't need to be concerned about the minutia of laws in other states. They only need to know what rules apply to their state, and which states grant them reciprocal rights.


(_Emphasis mine)_

Unless you were referring to both Bill, and the mouse in his pocket each having their own license, AND completely discounting that there are others participating in the discussion, then my point is still valid: if you care about _which states grant you reciprocal rights_, then it pays to stay up on the laws of those other states you intend to exercise your claim to reciprocity in.

If your state does not have a duty to report, and you’re unaware of _the minutiae_ of the state you’re traveling through (one that may or may not have a duty to report), and you get stopped by a cop, then it becomes pretty important to know what those laws are.



As far as my review of the app; take it or leave it. I think that $2-3 is a cheap investment for someone who travels a lot with guns, to have the current laws, of whatever state they might be planning on visiting, at the ready, rather than having to search and read (and hope what they’re reading is current) each time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Given that others were participating in the discussion, and you DID say:


I know what I said.
I understand you don't like the precise wording.
You'll get over it.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> As far as my review of the app; take it or leave it. I think that $2-3 is a cheap investment for someone who travels a lot with guns, to have the current laws, of whatever state they might be planning on visiting, at the ready, rather than having to search and read (and hope what they’re reading is current) each time.


You said that already too.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep, context is important.
If someone is being "precise" to be helpful that's one thing.
If they're doing it to be intentionally irritating, that's quite another.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> If they're doing it to be intentionally irritating, that's quite another.


That's true.
It's even worse when they make up things.
But that has nothing do to with concealed carry.


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