# Petzal's Pick



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

His pick for best hunting rifle, considering all facets such as engineering, cost, accuracy, etc.:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...t-production/model-70-extreme-weather-ss.html

He specified in caliber .270 Winchester.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Same thing as a Remington 700 long range in stainless at half the cost. Touch lighter but still half the cost. Or put a howa barreled action into a B&C stock and you have 600 invested. 270 sucks if you want to go extended ranges and handload because the bullet selection isn't very good like the 6.5s, 7s, and 308s. Good round and rifle, practical for many but not a one size fits all.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Same thing as a Remington 700 long range in stainless at half the cost. Touch lighter but still half the cost. Or put a howa barreled action into a B&C stock and you have 600 invested. 270 sucks if you want to go extended ranges and handload because the bullet selection isn't very good like the 6.5s, 7s, and 308s. Good round and rifle, practical for many but not a one size fits all.


I shoot a .270 loaded about as hot as you can go and not go overbook. It will throw a Barnes 140g almost 3100fps and shoot sub-moa. I have shot deer at 500 yards in the bean fields, caribou at 300 on the tundra and one buck at five steps. I'm a better shot at five steps.

One gun doesn't do it all, but I have a lot of faith in my old Model 70, if I do my part.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Petal's opinion is worth the same as everyone else's.
It doesn't match the majority though.


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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

Jolly said:


> His pick for best hunting rifle, considering all facets such as engineering, cost, accuracy, etc.:
> 
> http://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...t-production/model-70-extreme-weather-ss.html
> 
> He specified in caliber .270 Winchester.


Do you have a source for the reference, rather than the Winchester ad? Because, according to this article, that's mostly his choice for Mule deer...
http://www.fieldandstream.com/ultimate-guide-hunting-rifles-ammo-scopes

For whitetails, he says "there’s no such thing as a perfect all-around whitetail rifle" but then goes on to list the Savage Model 99 in .308; for coyotes, it's the Ruger Gunsite Scout in .223; for lots of other game, it's always something else. Nothing wrong with that if a person can afford it.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Jolly said:


> I shoot a .270 loaded about as hot as you can go and not go overbook. It will throw a Barnes 140g almost 3100fps and shoot sub-moa. I have shot deer at 500 yards in the bean fields, caribou at 300 on the tundra and one buck at five steps. I'm a better shot at five steps.
> 
> One gun doesn't do it all, but I have a lot of faith in my old Model 70, if I do my part.


Never said it cant be done, I simply stated that .277 bullet selection sucks if you want to go long range and have a bullet worth a darn. 270 is a good round no doubt, just not the bees knees


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I have shot deer at 500 yards in the bean fields, caribou at 300 on the tundra and one buck at five steps. I'm a better shot at five steps


Everybody's a great shot on the internet.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Everybody's a great shot on the internet.


But only some qualify as the north end of a south bound horse.

I'm not a great shot, but I'm pretty decent. If you can hit a bowling pin more than 75% of the time at 300 yards...Congratulations, you're better than me!

I'm shooting some Barnes 140g BT bullets I've had for years. I don't see them here, so I used another 140g bullet that has a nice BC.








At 500 yards, that still carries 1455 ft/lbs of energy. IIRC, 1200 pounds is sufficient for whitetails. The table features a 100yd zero, I use a 200 yard zero. Back to the Winchester Model 70 mentioned...Here's what Petzal had to say:

_Mule deer are strictly western and are bigger than whitetails but no harder to kill. The difference is that whitetails are usually a close or medium-range proposition. With mule deer, you get the occasional long shot. What if your whitetails live out in the open, too? Worry not. Any first-rate mule deer rifle is also a first-rate prairie or western whitetail rifle._

Now, Petzal mentioned the Marlin 336 in 35 Remington and the Savage 99 in .300 Savage as being really good deer rifles. But of the three rifles, considering all conditions where deer are hunted (and that's what I consider a "best" hunting rifle, although I do have a couple of guys I know who have killed elephants, but most of don't hunt rhino, cape buffalo or elephant), be it beanfield, thickets, snowy woods or western plains, he picked the .270 Model 70 as his mule deer rifle. Therefore, pardon my mild extrapolation, but I think the Model 70 in .270 could be called his pick as best hunting rifle.

So, is Petzal qualified to even make a list? I dunno, the guys been around the gun world as a writer and shooter for over 40 years. I guess he knows something, but rifles are always pretty subjective. Here's what Chuck Hawks cites as the best selling cartridges based on web traffic:



1. *.308 Winchester* - The .308 is one of the best selling cartridges in North America and the world, so it is no surprise that it interests many readers. It is the premier all-around cartridge for short action rifles.

2. *.270 Winchester* - The thousands of page views garnered by my article "The Great .270 Winchester" shows that interest in this classic all-around cartridge remains high. The .270 has been the standard of comparison for long range hunting cartridges for three quarters of a century and it may be the best combined all-around and long range hunting cartridge ever devised.

3. *.30-06 Springfield* - This is one of the most popular big game hunting cartridge in North America and it is one of the elite worldwide cartridges. Many experts regard it as the best all-around hunting cartridge. The .30-06 is in use on every continent where big game is hunted, so it is no surprise that its article gets a lot of page views.

4. *.45-70 Government* - The interest shown in this cartridge by the readers of _Guns and Shooting Online_ came as a surprise. My article "The Good Old .45-70" must have been well named, as it has gotten a great many page hits. The .45-70 is, indeed, a very good cartridge and the most popular big bore in North America.

5. *.30-30 Winchester* - The .30-30 is one of the top selling rifle cartridges in North America. Interest in the cartridge remains high, partly because of the popular, effective and handy lever action rifles in which it is chambered. It is one of the best 200 yard deer and medium game cartridges ever designed.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Ok, Part 2...

The .270 can certainly be challenged in the long range department by the 7 mag and the 6.5 stuff, particularly in my mind by the .264 Winchester, or maybe even one of the 300 Magnums shooting the right bullets. But when you're over a hundred miles from home and you forgot to pack those custom loads, what are the chances of the local mom&pop country store having a box of 6.5 Creedmoor?

And lastly, if I have offended anybody to the point that snide comments have to be made about what I post, just let me know. I surely don't want to offend anybody.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Aw, heck, don't worry about that. Rumor has it he missed every shot even in his dreams.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> So, is Petzal qualified to even make a list?


See Post #4:



Bearfootfarm said:


> Petal's opinion is worth the same as everyone else's.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Jolly said:


> Ok, Part 2...
> 
> The .270 can certainly be challenged in the long range department by the 7 mag and the 6.5 stuff, particularly in my mind by the .264 Winchester, or maybe even one of the 300 Magnums shooting the right bullets. But when you're over a hundred miles from home and you forgot to pack those custom loads, what are the chances of the local mom&pop country store having a box of 6.5 Creedmoor?
> 
> And lastly, if I have offended anybody to the point that snide comments have to be made about what I post, just let me know. I surely don't want to offend anybody.


Any and all the cartridges you listed will spank a 270 all day everyday. When's the last time you forgot all your ammo on a hunting trip? I ain't never done it. 7mag, 300 win, 308, are all better and all just as if not more available than 270. Should you forget your ammo that is going 3100 fps and your store bought stuff is at 2800 that'll change your POI, so how likely is it that you'll forget your ammo? Factory 3006 loads are better than the best 270 hand loads. It all comes down to bullet selection.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Any and all the cartridges you listed will spank a 270 all day everyday. When's the last time you forgot all your ammo on a hunting trip? I ain't never done it. 7mag, 300 win, 308, are all better and all just as if not more available than 270. Should you forget your ammo that is going 3100 fps and your store bought stuff is at 2800 that'll change your POI, so how likely is it that you'll forget your ammo? Factory 3006 loads are better than the best 270 hand loads. It all comes down to bullet selection.


Believe me, if something dumb can be done on a hunting trip, I've probably done it. IME, with my rifle, if I have to come off my loads, I look for a 130g load with a good ballistic coefficient. I'll check the rifle, but it will be very close to zero at 100. I'll figure from there.


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## rjburk (Jul 19, 2017)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Any and all the cartridges you listed will spank a 270 all day everyday. When's the last time you forgot all your ammo on a hunting trip? I ain't never done it. 7mag, 300 win, 308, are all better and all just as if not more available than 270. Should you forget your ammo that is going 3100 fps and your store bought stuff is at 2800 that'll change your POI, so how likely is it that you'll forget your ammo? Factory 3006 loads are better than the best 270 hand loads. It all comes down to bullet selection.


You are making a HUGE strecth when you say Factory 3006 loads are better than the best 270 handloads......lol....No Remington factory corelokt load is better than a good handloaded 270.....I have handloaded for years and since you did not specify what brand of factory ammo or bullet weight ? your blanket statement is far from correct....


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## Murt (Jan 2, 2017)

I like them all--although some more than others--all have their strengths and weaknesses for one thing or another

shoot what you like --just shoot it enough to be competent


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

All that aside, I kind of like my old #3 carbine in .45-70 with warmed up loads. 1.5x Weaver Wide View. 125 yard zero prints a consistent very slight 2 o'clock with me. Couple inches or so. Corn field bear rifle, best I ever used. Full house loads are not for beginners.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Full house loads are not for beginners.

_And some of us that ain't beginners._


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

I kin split a hair at 1,000 yards, shootin' backwards, blindfolded, with my hands tied behind my back, with a rock.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

rjburk said:


> You are making a HUGE strecth when you say Factory 3006 loads are better than the best 270 handloads......lol....No Remington factory corelokt load is better than a good handloaded 270.....I have handloaded for years and since you did not specify what brand of factory ammo or bullet weight ? your blanket statement is far from correct....


First off I don't care what anyone says about corelokts, they are good expanders but they are junk. Best 3006 BC at 180gr is 404. Best BC I have found for 270 is .536 and that's from hornady. You might be able to cook up a good 270 round but when you have BCs it the .675-.800 range on 7mm and 308s and handload why bother with a 270? Yes you would be correct my statement may be incorrect with all factory 3006. I haven't bought a box of ammo in 15 years, I'm not all that old either, but I always load my own even for a new rifle.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

gilberte said:


> I kin split a hair at 1,000 yards, shootin' backwards, blindfolded, with my hands tied behind my back, with a rock.


You're better than me, too.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Best deer hunter I ever knew, planted most of them with Cor-lokts, usually 180g round nose in a 30-06 Remington 742. BC wasn't too spiffy, but the deer didn't know it. I know he killed over 200 with that load.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Jolly said:


> Best deer hunter I ever knew, planted most of them with Cor-lokts, usually 180g round nose in a 30-06 Remington 742. BC wasn't too spiffy, but the deer didn't know it. I know he killed over 200 with that load.


Still isn't too spiffy. Never said they didn't do their job, as a long range round they are junk.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

I've read Dave Petzal for years and respect his hunting and shooting experience. I also love his ability to turn a phrase. The article is a response to all the people who've asked for his choice of rifle for various hunting situations. I respect his opinion, but I won't sell all my guns to buy another just because DEP likes it.

If you enjoy a specific rifle in a given caliber, enjoy your rifle and work to be the most humane hunter with it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

diamondtim said:


> The article is a response to all the people who've asked for *his choice* of rifle for various hunting situations.


I notice he managed to name all the major manufacturers except Browning and a few minor ones too.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Still isn't too spiffy. Never said they didn't do their job, as a long range round they are junk.


I like to get into all the long range stuff, too. It's all the rage today. But what's long range? 300 yards, 400 yards? 1000 yards? I probably can't shoot in y'all's league, but after shooting with hundreds of people over the years, I'm a bit above average. To shoot downtown, requires good range estimation, doping the wind and having the right load and rifle.

Going back to the old 180g deer-whoppers...When that guy's gun went off, you got ready to help drag. Anything within about 200 yards or so, was dead. Standing still, walking, running or strung out like a piece of brown spaghetti. D-E-A-D. What those rounds would do, is knock a quarter to half dollar hole on the exit wound side of the deer. Two hundred yards on a running deer is a long shot in my book.

Wandering back to the .270...On a 300 pound caribou at just under 300 yards, that copper slug in my gun broke two ribs on entry and destroyed the off side shoulder joint on exit...On a pipeline deer at just about 500 yards, that round broke ribs going in and going out. But that's about my limit. The round is effective further than I am.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

yes you get better BC in 6.5 and 7mm than .277

but the same reason I can't find a real good reason to stop using the 30-06 is it is basically splitting hairs inside any ethical hunting distance and wind unless you are a master of reading the wind it is going to be the deciding factor in what you can take for a shot


I ran some number through the calculator yes I only used G1 BC and gave each round a realistic less than book max velocity


6.5 creedmoore calculations use the Hornady .264 ELDX 143gr with a bc of .625

30-06 calculations used the Hornady .308 interlock 165gr with a BC of .447

270 Win calculations use the Hornady .277 ELDX bullet 145 gr with a BC of .536

7mm mag calculations use the Hornady .284 ELDX bullet with a BC of .630

I took all out to 1000 yards with a 200 yard zero and a scope 2 inches above bore axis


trajectory is important but I feel isn't the deciding factor in taking an good shot they are all withing 1 minute of each other at 300 yards so even on a MOA rifle the deviation could be more than the difference in trajectory between the rounds they all have the energy to make a decent hit a kill.

to me the deciding factor has to be wind , when your wind drift on target from a 10 mph wind is greater than half your target size then it is time to move closer or not shoot. so where would that be on the 7mm mag with a 10 mph wind at 90 degrees I would place it just a about 300 yards in the calculations that would be 4.5 inches of wind drift if your trying to hit a 9 inch target at 300 yards I figure that is where you can reasonably guess wind to , past that your going to need flags , wind speed meter or no wind.



if your a master of reading the wind maybe you could go further

lots of people get lucky , my cousins gun was shooting 6 inches right at 25 yards last year he still got 2 of the 4 deer he shot at

but if you take a 8 inch steel plate and your hunting load and go out in different weather not just perfectly calm days and run the target out to the distances you plan to hunt if you can't hit that plate 10 for 10 rounds when you can't go 10 for 10 with that position and that load in that weather the last place you could should be your max distance.

not a lot of people practice near as much as they should


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Jolly said:


> I like to get into all the long range stuff, too. It's all the rage today. But what's long range? 300 yards, 400 yards? 1000 yards? I probably can't shoot in y'all's league, but after shooting with hundreds of people over the years, I'm a bit above average. To shoot downtown, requires good range estimation, doping the wind and having the right load and rifle.
> 
> Going back to the old 180g deer-whoppers...When that guy's gun went off, you got ready to help drag. Anything within about 200 yards or so, was dead. Standing still, walking, running or strung out like a piece of brown spaghetti. D-E-A-D. What those rounds would do, is knock a quarter to half dollar hole on the exit wound side of the deer. Two hundred yards on a running deer is a long shot in my book.
> 
> Wandering back to the .270...On a 300 pound caribou at just under 300 yards, that copper slug in my gun broke two ribs on entry and destroyed the off side shoulder joint on exit...On a pipeline deer at just about 500 yards, that round broke ribs going in and going out. But that's about my limit. The round is effective further than I am.


Been shooting long range for a long time, even before it was all the rage and the world knew who Chris Kyle was. Long range is in the eye of the beholder I guess. To me a 300 yard shot is a chip shot, difficult for some or even many but I find it easy. 1000 yards, easy with the right conditions, more challenging with uphill or downhill shots and wind. Can I hit a 12" steel plate at 1000 10 out of 10 times, yes I can, with numerous rifles off a bipod. Out west that's how I hunt, in west Texas I still have my rifle propped on a sturdy rest. Why not take advantage of it. Would I hit a target standing at 1000? Maybe once out of 10....maybe. My point is that yes a 270 is a good round, but as a handloader and from what I have seen the hornady listed above is the best BC I have seen yet for a .277 bullet. Nosler has their .308 accubong long range at .730, that's a ton of difference in playing the wind in the hills and mountains. I like to hunt at long range it's more of a challenge and I know I have the ability and skills to do it. Would I kill a critter at a mile? No, can I hit a target at a mile, yes did it with my wife's 6.5-284 Norma. I also did it in 3 shots, not perfect but I tried and succeeded. Could a 270 do it? Probably, maybe I'll have to try it one day.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Jolly said:


> At 500 yards, that still carries 1455 ft/lbs of energy. IIRC, 1200 pounds is sufficient for whitetails.


Yes energy is important but for all too long has been confused with effectiveness to kill. There is no minimum energy to kill a critter because a bow generally won't break 70-80. Speed and bullet design is where effective range comes into play. This is why a 308win sucks past 1000 not to mention a little past that they go transonic which generally causes the bullet to tumble, this is with a 175 SMK. The 28 nosler at 1600 yards is only packing 652 ft/lb bit moving at 1295, this is the 175 ABLR. Same round but 160 grain AB, not the ABLR is recommended effective to 900, even though it is going faster and packing more energy, why you might ask? Bullet design. The AB needs higher speeds to expand properly where the ABLR, is designed for extended range and requires a lower speed to expand properly. Energy is great but speed is better.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I'm not sure speed always trump's energy, especially under some circumstances. I'm not sure energy tells the whole tale, either. For example, a 45-70 and a 5.56 will have similar energy levels with certain loadings at hunting ranges. But which is the better killer?

I know Taylor tried to do a better chart many years ago, but I still don't think anything definitive exists. Could be wrong, though...


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I think the author made a pretty good choice for once. I was expecting some silly, short barrel, carbine "scout rifle", or an AR of some type. I'd prefer wood and blued vs plastic and stainless, but that's just personal preference.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Jolly said:


> I'm not sure speed always trump's energy, especially under some circumstances. I'm not sure energy tells the whole tale, either. For example, a 45-70 and a 5.56 will have similar energy levels with certain loadings at hunting ranges. But which is the better killer?
> 
> I know Taylor tried to do a better chart many years ago, but I still don't think anything definitive exists. Could be wrong, though...


Maybe an ultra light 45-70 versus the heaviest 5.56.....maybe. That's comparing apples to oranges though. The trajectory at 500 has fallen 3.5x farther than a 556. But still retains 1000fps and on a solid 300 grain lead slug it will expand properly more than likely versus the best 556 bullet with will be at 1600 maybe with a 69 grain bullet. Probably won't have enough speed to expand properly based on bullet design. Take a look at nosler they show their recommended minimum velocities for proper expansion.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

That .458 doesn't need to expand a whole lot.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

krackin said:


> That .458 doesn't need to expand a whole lot.


Kinda like a .45 ACP FMJ. The expansion is "built in".


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Y'all completely missed the point on that.


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