# Mad Cow Disease in Washington State



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

The USDA has now confirmed a suspected case of MCD found in a downer cow in Washington State. Formal confirmation is expected after further tests.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Well...anyone with half a brain knew that was coming, but it is still shocking to hear it finally has.

Sure glad I have done my own program on my farm to guard against it. No animal proteins at all for my cows for quite some time.

I'm not sure if I should be happy because I know my cattle are ok, or totally devastated because I'm now on my way to financial ruin along with everyone else. I know what's it's done to Canada.

Nice anxiety producing xmas present.

Jena


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Tomorrow should be a very interesting day on the stock market. Expectations seem to be every industry associated with beef will take a major hit. Don't be surprised to see the Dow Jones take it biggest one day loss.

On timing, fortuantely I am about in the middle of a short calving season. Thus, I have a 6-8 month window to see what happens. I also have the option to increase haying to carry through what I have.

This is going to be a rough ride so hang on tight.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

On the good side....I can keep and feed everything I have all winter long, if necessary. That's a blessing. I won't be forced to sell simply because otherwise they will starve.

On the bad side....I have notes coming due. The bank has always been willing to work with us and I'm sure that won't change in the immediate future, though it's hard to tell.

I'd better step up the marketing on my cattle directly to consumers. That could prove to be my saving grace.

Jena


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

It bothers me that they call this (and the Canadian one) "in isolated case", if the other cows from the farm were all fed the same way then wouldn't they all potentially be affected?? Me thinks the powers that be don't want the people to panic.
It's going to be interesting to say the least, isolated case my *****!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carol K


----------



## arnoldw (May 22, 2003)

Since this was found in a Holstein its not just going to effect in beef cattle but will probably be hard heat in the Dairy Industry as well. The news will play this up for rating and Kill the farmer just as it has in Canada. Japan has already temporaly Banned all US Beef imports into Japan Where over 30 percent of our exports go. I certainly would not want to be holding any cattle futures right know. Lets hope this passes quickly and there are no other casaes of BSE. 
Happy Holidays Arnold


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Carol...

This is just my theory on mad cow and how there can indeed be isolated cases. I've done lots of reading on it, but I'm not sure if others share my theory.

Many species have their own "mad cow" disease that occurs spontaneously in the population, including humans. For us, it is CJD. The usual rate of infection for CJD is 1 in a million. If that is the "standard" rate for other diseases of this type, then 1 in a million cows will naturally get BSE, 1 in a million deer will get CWD, etc. The cause for this spontaneous disease is not known.

The feeding practices that were in practice simply put a huge amplifier on the problem. By feeding those diseased animals back to other animals, the original 1 out of million could have infected hundreds or thousands of other animals. It just multiplied itself as the feeding practices were continued.

Stop the feeding practices and you go back to the 1 in a million. An isolated case.

Again, I'm not a scientist or researcher and I don't know for sure that my assumptions are correct, but this makes sense to me.

They tracked that canadian cow back through it's life, tracking down herd mates, etc. yet found not one other infected cow. If that cow got mad cow from how it was fed, they would have found other cases, at least I would think so. 

I don't know what the size of the national herd is (off the top of my head), but I doubt that one cow is the only affected animal in this country. I don't think it's a reason to panic and I don't think we will ever see the level that was apparent in Britain. Fortunately for us, they got it first. We were able to put safeguards in place before it got to that point. I wish they had been more rigorous in the safeguards we are using, but I suppose now they will.

It will probably be too late for me. I'm trying not to jump to conclusions, but based on what happened in Canada, I doubt I will survive this financially. Cattle prices are already off $6/cwt and the market didn't really have time to react. The really hard part for me is knowing I won't know for a long time. It will take a while to work it's way out and I just have to hang on, if I can.

Sorry to go on like that.....but I do think an isolated case is entirely possible.

Jena


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Jena, I do agree with your spontanious occurence theory, another that's been batted around up here by vets is that the disease jumped species from deer/elk. Carol, I don't think you have a solid grasp of the cattle industry, cattle are bought and sold every day and the trace back and trace out is just wild. The Canadian cow had come in contact with approx. 2000 other cows and that doesn't include cows that have come in contact with those cows. Think outside the homesteading concept, cattle live on community lease pastures and some travel through feedlots. Feed is the logical cause but what feed andwhere did it come from? Is it feed or is it a supplement? Better yet, is the cow an illegal immigrant? Some folks are sneaking emryos and semen into the country. Because this cow was a dairy cow, I don't see things being any different that it was up here with a beef cow because the whole damned industry was shut down. If your pattern follows ours, every auction house will be closed for a while. They want to stop the movement of all cattle till the can accurately trace every animal that might be affected. I don't even know if you folks will have it as bad as we did. We were the first of the "clean countries" to be affected by it and we've never been able to trace it or find another case to prove or disprove any theory so we've been stuck in limbo for ages. Now, all beef producing countries are on an even playing field. We've never blamed the US for shutting us down, we would have done the same thing if the situation were reversed. This might just straighten out the industry and we can all work together to find a solution. I pray that none of you have to go through the devastation that we've seen up here. It's affected so many directly and others indirectly, packing plants have closed, auctioneers out of work, dairy cattle worth nothing, buffalo worth nothing, sheep and goats valueless, etc.


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

There has been literally millions of dollars of research and investigation done on Mad Cow Disease and scientists frankly don't know what really causes it or why the outbreak. Thinking was the feeding of scrapie infected sheep as meat and bone meal, but that has been done for a long, long time. One line of thinking is the use of orangeophorphorus (sp?) fly control may be a trigger to an inate gene all cattle have. But then it has shown up in closed herds which received no meat and bone meal or any OP used on the animals or on crops on that farm.

Once the hide is off of a carcass it is very, very difficult to tell what breed it was. A Holstein may look very much like a Brahman-cross. Beef from cull dairy cows is not separated during the processing and sale cycles.

One line of thinking is that 1/1M natural occurance and that it simply wasn't noticed until the cluster in Britian. Symptons can be mistaken for rabies.

I believe the U.S. exports only about 25% of the world beef supply.

I, for one, will not change my level of consumption of beef even if I weren't a cattle farmer.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

There are also other slaughterhouse practices that caused more problems by increasing the risk of high risk tissues getting into the meat. 

The use of mechanical meat seperators, machines the pick every scrap of meat from the bones, have been blamed. When using these machines on spinal columns, the brushes of the machine can catch particles of spinal cord and then that goes into the hamburger.

The use of pnuematic stun guns has been questioned as well. Pnuematic guns basically blast the brain apart with air. Those brain particles can be spread throughout the body by the circulation as the animal dies.

I don't know when these methods were started in slaughterhouses, but I think they are a major player in the disease spreading also. That was one of my chief gripes about our system of "protection"...they still allow those practices.

Packers have lots of clout.

Jena--who doesn't know if I should dump the cattle now or wait it out...


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Jena, judging by what happened to the markets here, I would say it would be wise to wait a bit before selling. Our auctions were completely shut down for about 120 days. The government stepped in to a certain degree and pretty well forced bankers to hold off ony any loan payments that were immediate. I don't think you will be held up as long as we were in Canada. Our situation was pretty unique in the sense that nobody could find a cause or any other infected cattle and thousands were killed and tested. The US was very active in our investigation and they'll have a bit of a format to work from rather that hunting blind and if nothing else turns up, at least you have another similar case. Our case came from one of the most closed herds I've ever heard of (granted she'd had several owners since) and the only thing I found to be of interest was the area she born is dense in deer and one of the regions that chronic wasting was first found. All calves were traced and found to healthy and any animals she shared feeding programs were found to be fine. You'll find it quite surprising over the next little while, how many farms will come under quarrantine and lose their cattle for testing. I pray that all of you will not suffer as badly as we have in the last several months and you have quick answers. I would also ask you all to not be unkind or uncharitable toward the folks that sold this one cow. The poor man that last owned the cow up here was not treated nicely and at a time when he could have used a bit of support from friends and neighbors, he had to go into hiding. There was a great deal of anger directed at him for selling a cow in such poor condition and she was so down that she had to be helped onto the truck when she was shipped out. You would have thought, from the way people acted, he'd set out to destroy a whole industry on purpose. It's a tough thing for anybody in cattle and it's sure going to put a strain on everybody's Christmas.


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Jena:

Can you hedge your get a little? Round up all of your cattle the night before the next sale and line up transport. Go to the sale and see how many head are there and what they are going for. If you can live with the price, have them all hauled in. If the price drops drastically, there may be an excellent restocking opportunity for you in the future.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## dlwelch (Aug 26, 2002)

I, for one, will not change my level of consumption of beef even if I weren't a cattle farmer.

Ken S. in WC TN
==========================================

I agree with you! 

After visiting some of the other agri forums, I'm glad this one seems to have
some facts, reason and not adding to the frenzy.

Linda
(going to feed the replacement
heifers and hope for the best)


----------



## Guest (Dec 24, 2003)

The irony of all this of course, is the fear factor.People are probably far more likely to die in their car on the way to the butcher shop than eating the beef they bought there.However- facts don't have much weight, fear is irrational.Look at the impact SARS had-shutdown borders- but far more people die of flu- and how many people even get a flu shot?
Of course, I still hold the view that once we move out of what nature intended, cattle eating grass, hay and plant material, and start feeding them animal protein for no other reason than to put weight on them, we open the door to a whole lot of problems- most of which are avoidable.
Personally, I would prefer to eat meat from a grass fed beef raised on a local farm, but we can't all enjoy that luxoury.I do like deer, though, at least it hasn't been pumped full of hormones and fed goodness knows what.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

American and Canadian beef is the safest in the world. For the next little while, you'll find the industry will go through absolute hell. The media will make speculations and churn things up till its at an absolute frenzied level. I don't now if you all know it or not but it's our own doing that the every country is closing their doors to your beef and did to ours a while ago. This is not actually a choice but part of an emergency program that Canada and the US orchestrated along with the WHO. It's happend to you exactly the same way it did to us and after the investigation, you'll see certain countries start relaxing. Jena, watch your markets carefully and if you do sell, be there so you can either buy them back or put a reserve bid on them. Our prices are still lower than they were but not as bad as they could be. There was a while where people had to sell to meet obligations and there were plenty of people ready to take them up on their offer at 5 cents a pound. Our auction houses were completely shut down for 8 - 12 weeks, in Alberta, to stop the movement of cattle while the early stages of the investigation were underway. I would urge you all to stay calm and take any "reports" with a grain of salt unless there is a federal vet standing in front of the mike. The investigation phase is turbulent and because they're looking at every possible connection, the whole thing is quite disturbing. At one point in time, we had something like 22 separate farms in Alberta under quarrantine in Alberta and folks were in a terrible panic, thinking we had that many cases of bse. In reality, they were tracing a brand of feed supplement that turned up nothing but in the meantime, the media had released those people's names and they were subjected to unwanted scrutiny during a very difficult time. This might not be as bad as you beleive. The US is the very last, large cattle producing country to have had the BSE Free status and I would think this just puts us all back on an even playing field. I've watched the growing list of countries that aren't accepting you beef for the moment and I can tell you that you will be back in business with almost every one of them sooner than you think, with the exception of Japan and they may have no choice. I'm not sure why they're so rigid because they've had more cases that anybody else. Trade will resume gradually and it will be frozen meat, no bone cuts of younger animals first and then things come back gradually. I'm sorry I'm posting to agressively but I'm of the mind that others will also read this, including visitors and I want everybody to understand that they need to stay calm, have some facts and support their beef and dairy industries domestically. Farmers and ranchers have supported many people and causes over the years, they feed the nation and they need domestic support now.


----------



## Guest (Dec 24, 2003)

look at it this way, picture a summer evening, barbeques on, cold brew in one hand ,a few friends in,and what would you rather have- a T-Bone steak, or a Tofu burger?Yeah,I thought so.This too will pass.I figure a lot of closed borders are nothing more than oportunism...and sorry, the US is as guilty as any.Trouble is, it's always the little guy that gets hurt, the producer,the big guys get bailed out by the government


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

There are many questions to be answered, one of mine is this: How many other cows have gone to the packers from this farm that were not downer cows? Maybe some went because of low production? Age ? Etc. So they are now in the meat chain. This cow was only tested because it was a downer, what about the others?

My second question: The Red Cross will not accept blood from people that have lived in Europe between certain times because of BSE, I presume by that that they believe that it can be transfered to other humans. Then why would some cuts of beef be safe? Blood is blood-right. Maybe I'm not looking at this correctly?

Carol K


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

I'm going out on a speculation limb on this one. Cattle blood to humans would be cross-species. A blood transfusion between humans is within-species. Within species transmittal is far easier than cross-species.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Carol. possibly others have been sold from the same farm but that isn't a guarantee of anything. In Canada, we found that over 2000 cattle that might have shared feed sources, pasture or been in contact with the single cow or any of her offspring, were in no way affected by the disease. Each animal and their calves were individually tested and none came up positive. I do know that the disease you fear is so very rare and they are not sure that it actually does come from meat. I think you need more information before anybody panics. We need to know a lot more about this single cow. I'd like to know if she's in an area with a lot of domestic deer/elk, what her age is. The fact that she is a dairy cow, would lead me to wonder if she was imported from somewhere and how long this particular farmer has actually owned her or if she was born there. If you are concerned about the meat you consume, buy muscle cuts and avoid real sausage casings.


----------



## Guest (Dec 24, 2003)

Please forgive my ignorance here before I ask my questions.

Why are downed cows allowed to be processed in the first place? How could anyone in good conscience knowingly send any sick cow (whatever they were sick from) out for processing? Isn't that like selling a defective product without notifying the end consumer? Our Fox affiliate showed a sister station's investigation of that particular packing plant and they had some surveillance video of cows that were either dead or close to to it being dragged or winched up to the processing area--that did not do much to inspire confidence in the safety of the meat supply.

I hope this is an isolated case, but they need to definitely change the laws on downed cows.


----------



## Guest (Dec 24, 2003)

my point exactly- why are diseased cattle being sold?


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Wr, if I have given you the impression somehow that I am overly concerned or in a panic then I have conveyed the wrong message. I'm from England, and lived through the "scare" times so I know how the media can put people in a frenzy. I also know how little we know about this disease, and how little people know about how meat reaches them as shown in the previous message about "why we are processing downer cows". I'm just interested in how this is all going to go down, and if the general public are going to get all the info they should.

Ken, you really think species don't cross contaminate and form some mutated form of the disease?? So you are ok with feeding animal parts to other animals?

Carol K


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"Ken, you really think species don't cross contaminate and form some mutated form of the disease?? So you are ok with feeding animal parts to other animals?"

That's not what I said. My point was cross-species transmission is more difficult than within-species transmission.

Well, unless you are a vegan, you are an animal which eats parts from other animals. Cannibalism within the human species goes back to the dawn of man. The only ones who have ever gotten ill over it are the tribes which eat the brains - Kurdo or something.

If you feed the pigs being fattened up with table scraps would you remove anything animal related, such as fat cut off pork chops?

Meat and Bone Meal (M&BM) was an excellent, cheap, protein source for livestock, and still is today. It just that M&BM from ruminants cannot be fed to other ruminants. Some feeds have ground up chicken feathers. Some feedlots include composted poultry litter as a feed supplement.

Even being a Vegan doesn't keep you necessarily healthy as the recent case of Hepititis A in scallots attests. Is tuna OK or bad for you this week?

Growing and raising your own doesn't offer absolute protection. As noted MCD was found in some closed herds on farms which grew all of their feed. No outside animal contact. No feed purchased off the farm. Where did it come from. Spontaneous is as good of a theory as bird droppings or comet dust - both of which were checked out.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

P.S. My understanding is this cow was partially paralized following calving - not an uncommon occurance. It walked (or whatever) into the cattle truck; however, by the time it arrived at the slaughter plant, it could not get up on its own. It was not diseased, but USDA requires any such cows have a test sample drawn. It then continues through processing rather than being held the several weeks testing takes on the assumption it does not have MCD. This happens to thousands of cattle a year and this is the first which tested positive.


----------



## Hears The Water (Aug 2, 2002)

First of all, I want to thank y'all for presenting the facts in a clear, level-headed manner. I am not a rancher. I am a consumer of beef though, so I decided that I needed to be informed. My best friend today mentioned in an IM conversation "Well, we are offically off beef" :no: That realy made me mad. I told her that I needed to do some research before I made that big of a decision for my family. Beef prices have been going up lately (like all protein foods, thanks to the low carb diets) and we are barely able to afford ground chuck for our family. And in truth now that I have been doing some reading online I am a bit releaved since I know that the beef prices will be going down. I am also sadded because they will probably go so far down that people like y'all will probably loose thier shirts. 

Jena, you wonderd if you should start selling directly to the consumer. My first thought about this was that I would certainly feel safer buying a side or half side from a neighbor who I know used non-animal feed (or what ever the correct term is, sorry) like grass, hay or corn. I do not know if you could print up some kind of a phamphlet to re-educate people about how safe your beef realy is. Most of them will probably be like my friend and freak out and start eating a lot of chicken. 

Someone else mentioned that this is what happens when we start messing around with the animals in a way that God did not intend for them to be cared for. I agree. In the next few days or weeks I will be closely watching this to see where it goes and I will continue to stop in here to get the real facts from the people who know. Thanks!
God Bless you and yours
Debbie


----------



## Chris in MO (Feb 6, 2003)

Ken Scharabok said:


> It was not diseased


But it was diseased. I don't understand this statement. 

I'm an outsider to the world of cattle, all I have are chickens and guineas. I'm not panicking, I'm just trying to fathom why sick cattle are processed for *human* consumption--as opposed to canine or other animal. The human thing was news to me. It seems intuitively like it would be a bad idea.


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Carol:

"Downer" is a generalized term used to describe any cattle which have difficulty moving on their own. It may be a cow partially paralized while calving (which was apparently the case here), one with a broken leg, several foot infection, cancer eye - fairly common in Herefords, blind, severe pink eye, severe arthritis or just plain out old age as folks try to get just one more calf out of them. These are not diseased and the meat is still fit for consumption - although most will go to the pet food market.

Most diseased animals are destroyed and disposed of on the farm. The livestock where I take my cattle have a no dead or diseased animals policy, however, some still do make it through the process. When identified, my understanding those are usually sent to a rendering plant.

Again, my understanding is this cow showed none of the symptoms associated with MCD, such as staggering and charging.

The human version of MCD, JCD?, mimics the symptoms of Alzheimers, but the end comes much quicker. It was only when Alzheimer-type symptoms started showing up in young people in England it was linked to MCD.

Actually, given a choice between JCD and Alzheimers, I'll take JCD.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Ken, I think you meant your post to RAC, not me, although I found it interesting too. You mention that most diseased cows don't get processed for human consumption but BSE sometimes doesn't show for many years, so if a cow with just a broken leg lets say goes to the food chain we actuallt don't know if it has BSE or not-do we? It's these sort of things that bother me.

Carol K


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

http://www.organicconsumers.org/

This site has lots of info on BSE and its many forms in different species. I don't know if it is biased as it's from the organic site, but it's useful.

Carol K


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"...but BSE sometimes doesn't show for many years, so if a cow with just a broken leg lets say goes to the food chain we actuallt don't know if it has BSE or not-do we? It's these sort of things that bother me."

You are 100% correct. However, once you separate out the brain and spinal tissue (assuming you get it all), it reduces the chance of getting CJD by a factor so large I don't know how to quantify it. It's not a show of bravo, but I'd be willing to eat a nice steak from the particular cow in question.

No system is going to be perfect. USDA policy was to address those which problems just in case, which is how this one was caught. Trials are now underway which can test for MCD through a blood sample with near 100% accuracy. This will stop the need for mass slaughter for brain disecting.

I don't know how to answer the question on animal by-products in feed. My Co-op says they use absolutely none in any of their feeds. My feed mill doesn't stock any B&BM from ruminants to make sure it isn't mixed in feed accidentially. But keep in mind the USDA ban is on feeding M&MB from ruminants to other ruminants. It is allowed for say hogs and poultry.

If you have any reservations on beef just restrict your purchases to muscle cuts and avoid any with bone, such as ribs or t-bones, and hamburger. For the latter, if you have a home grinder buy roasts and grind your own.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Just to be clear....meat and bone meal from ruminants is NOT allowed in ANY livestock feed. I do believe it is still allowed in pet feed (dogs and cats), but not for cattle, hogs or poultry.

Jena


----------



## mizattitude (Nov 10, 2003)

So if a relatively healthy looking cow can have it..what about when we go to local butchers? How do they tell if the cow has it? Or do they even look?


----------



## greenacres (Feb 21, 2003)

Here is something I would also like to add. I was a member of the meats judging team in college. We would go to practice at a large beef processing plant. The cleanliness of the place was unbelieveable, even with the processing going on. Also, the carcass was tagged. The head was tagged. The guts where tagged. They would run tests on them and would know where that carcass was at, where it came from, etc. All of the equipment used for slaughter and processing is so ergonomically designed to prevent injury to the workers performing the same procedures and to provide the most efficiency while processing the beef. I was not only in the refrigerated area looking at thousands of carcasses, but on the kill floor as well. I am not going to get scientific about probablility of how this spreads, etc. And I know that not every place performs and follows correct procedures, etc. I just wanted to give some insight from someone who has been there and witnessed how the processing was done.


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"So if a relatively healthy looking cow can have it..what about when we go to local butchers? How do they tell if the cow has it? Or do they even look?"

You are absolutely right. Had this cow simply been culled for perhaps low milk production or being a hard milker she would not have been tested.

Currently the only test is to take tissue samples of the brain. I don't know how many cattle are slaughtered every day in the U.S., but the number is surely rather large. 100% testing would have been a huge undertaking. Testing only downer cows was a reasonable compromise.

Blind testing is no going on for a blood test which can detect MCD prions. So far it has a 100% match to tissue testing. When it is released, I would expect at least every dairy cow to be tested, probably annually. May or may not be extended to beef cattle. While it may have happened, I don't recall hearing of a single case of MCD being confirmed in a beef (non-dairy) animal.

No system is going to be 100% absolute.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Ken Scharabok said:


> " May or may not be extended to beef cattle. While it may have happened, I don't recall hearing of a single case of MCD being confirmed in a beef (non-dairy) animal.


The Canadian cow was an angus, which is a beef breed. 

I think dairy cows might be more suspectible simply due to the conditions under which they live. They are fed more commercial feeds and more "high quality" feeds with more protein. Nutrition is not as critical in beef cows and "high quality" feed is expensive. Not as many beef cows are fed commercial feeds. Those that are will be slaughtered well before the 30 month's old deadline that minimizes the risk of them being ill.

Jena


----------



## Tom McLaughlin (Nov 16, 2002)

Any thoughts on d-activated animal serol as vitamin D supplement used in cattle feed? Just wondering>>> Tom


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Tom McLaughlin said:


> Any thoughts on d-activated animal serol as vitamin D supplement used in cattle feed? Just wondering>>> Tom


Call the manufacturer and find out exactly what it is made of. That's where I would start. They use these names for things, but what in the heck is it???? What animal did it come from? What part of the animal was used for it?

Jena


----------



## mizattitude (Nov 10, 2003)

Testing only downer cows was a reasonable compromise.

....................................................


Really? So a cow can have it..only it isn't detected if they are slaughtered early? If they are not showing any signs of illness..we can still catch it..right? I am confused about how this disease works

Its really unsettling to have to depend on the government...how do we know there weren't more cases..that had been covered up? 


I read a news story that said that the USDA (I think) wasn't taking the scientists seriously enough a few months back. They suggested testing ALL cattle, even if it meant costing us a few more cents to the pound. As a beef eater..I would definitely want all precautions taken. Perhaps if they had taken precautions earlier..it could have saved the shirts of alot of farmers..who will more than likely take a hit for this.


----------



## Tom McLaughlin (Nov 16, 2002)

Jena said:


> Call the manufacturer and find out exactly what it is made of. That's where I would start. They use these names for things, but what in the heck is it???? What animal did it come from? What part of the animal was used for it?
> 
> Jena


 Here's what the Wa. State Dept. of Ag. reports... Cholecatciferol (D-Activated Animal Sterol) is obtained by activation of a sterol fraction of animal origin with ultra-violet light or orther means. For label identification it may be followed with the parenthetical phrase (source of vitamin D-3). The definition of sterols is (part) solid cyclical alcohols which are the major constituents of the unsaponfiable portion of animal and vegtable fats and oils. Since alcohols are not proteins these are not prohibited as ruminent feed regardless of species of origin... I was just wondering what others thought about this.. I have been using certified organic feed for my cows until the price became unaffordable for me. I started looking at other feed and came across this and wonder what it was. I now buy my feed from a local mill without the mineral / vitamin pack (contains animal sterol) they and most others use. It (animal sterol) is reported as safe and like it said can be labeled as vit. D-3 source. Just me.. I guess but my flags go up when I see animal on the ingredient tag...


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Tom McLaughlin said:


> Here's what the Wa. State Dept. of Ag. reports... Cholecatciferol (D-Activated Animal Sterol) is obtained by activation of a sterol fraction of animal origin with ultra-violet light or orther means. For label identification it may be followed with the parenthetical phrase (source of vitamin D-3). The definition of sterols is (part) solid cyclical alcohols which are the major constituents of the unsaponfiable portion of animal and vegtable fats and oils. Since alcohols are not proteins these are not prohibited as ruminent feed regardless of species of origin


Well that clears that up huh? 

I think you need a someone with a bit more education than me to actually understand what that means.

I wonder if that is where the vitmain D in milk comes from.

Jena


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Jena, you just made my eyes go the size of golf balls (lol) thinking about your vitamin D in milk statement. 

Carol K


----------



## Tom McLaughlin (Nov 16, 2002)

Jena said:


> Well that clears that up huh?
> 
> I think you need a someone with a bit more education than me to actually understand what that means.
> 
> ...


 I think the sterols are extracted from the skin somehow and are commonly used as a source of D vitamins. I don't know if it is used in store milk. But from what know of D and A vit. its in well grown feed and sunlight... or cod liver oil. Well, just wonderin'.... Tom


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

About vitamin D

http://www.beyonddiscovery.org/content/view.page.asp?I=434


----------



## jessandcody (Nov 21, 2003)

I thought they found out that prions(sp) where what caused mad cow. This is what I was told in a college biology class at lest. We talked about the simalarity to other disseses like cronic wasting disseas. I grew up in Wisconson and remember seing farmers milk cattle that had symptoms very simaler to MC. But at the time (8-10 years ago) there was no mention of Mad Cow. I also remember where these cows went after they died! They went straight to "downer" plants that prossesed them for feed to pets and livestock. These places produced liquid fat and protine suplements that would be feed back to feed lot cattle. These cows may or may not have had Mad Cow but they where sick. If it was a Prion(sp) transfered illness that they had, The prossesing wouldn't have done a thing to prevent the spred to other livestock eatting the suppliments! Prions cant be killed like a virus or bacteria! Mad Cow or not there is a great potential for an illness related disaster! 

Cody


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"...illness related disaster."

Let's keep it in context. Likely most of the population of England was exposed to MCD-tainted beef. Yet, according to an article in yesterday's CSM, "...A total of 153 people worldwide have been reported to have contracted the human form of the illness, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

In a worldwide population of several billion, mostly in countries without any or lax standards on livestock feeding and processing, that is an extremely, extremely, extremely low number.

Your chances of getting the naturally occuring human form of MCD, CJD, are about one-in-a-million. If you use ten years as the history of vCJD (CJD caused by exposure to MCD), it would be 15.3 a year WORLDWIDE. Heck, the flu alone is generally thought to kill about 30,000 in the U.S. annually.

My working theory is you have to have a number of very low probability factors come together at one time. Namely only a small number of cattle proportionally have acquired MCD, yet they were raised under similar/identical conditions as others. This, to me, suggests a genetic-predisposition. MCD could only get onto beef products from lax processing to where brain or spinal matter (and I have no seen references to the end of the small intestines) are allowed to contaminate other beef products. In England alone millions were exposed to MCD-tainted beef yet only a very small number acquired vCJD, usually only one family in a household. Again, to me, this suggests a genetic-predisposition. Deep down in my heart I think there is also an unknown trigger factor caused by exposure to something - orangeophorphorus? A bit of one-in-a-million, multiplied by another one-in-a-million multiplied by a lower factor for possible processing contamination.

I'm certainly not saying this isn't something which required immediate (and probably radical) measure. Just that it needs to be taken in context.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## mizattitude (Nov 10, 2003)

When Canada had the outbreak..one would've thunk that the US would test all cattle that came from that country.That cow has been here for over 2 years...

I understand what you are saying about the odds of getting it..and the genetic predisposition..but there are no tests to tell WHO would not get it if they are exposed to it. 
The fact of feeding Cattle their own parts and that of other animals just to fatten them up is rank. Just so the farmers can fatten them up quicker? 
I understand the small farmer may have little to do with these practices, I personally grass feed my cattle..and hay. Takes longer to fatten them up..but I know that the cattle are healthy and eating only what they are supposed to eat (forgive me if I am assuming incorrectly that grain isn't the best choice..I am still new at this).
My question is..It is because of the large cattle farmers and their unethical practices that have caused all this..so why should we trust them when they say "the meat is safe"?


Respectfully, 
Leigh


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

There were 11 million cattle imported from Canada in 2000. Most of those ended up being slaughtered. I don't know how many were breeding animals and how many weren't.

That's a lot of cattle to track and test (considering we have no cattle ID system).

Farmers, large or small, are in the business of raising things for food. They are interested keeping the animals healthy, productive and cost-effective. To do this, farmers usually rely on either the knowledge they have gained over their lifetimes, or what "smarter" people tell them to do.

Research done by universities, feed companies, etc is the biggest source of information for "new" things, or how to improve old things. The farmer listens to what it said, then decides if it is something to do on their farm or not. The only information they have to go by, is the information that is presented by whoever did the research.

I have a feed book from 1949. It talks about feeding meat and bone meal to cattle. It talks about the benefits, etc in this "modern" method. I don't know how long farmers have been feeding meat and bone meal, but it was before 1949. The subject was not controversial, it was not perceived to be a risk and no one knew what would happen 40-50 years later. 

No one was being unethical. The researchers who came up with the idea and pushed farmers to do it weren't being unethical, they thought they had a great new idea. The farmers who listened to that advice and did what they were supposed too weren't being unethical, they were doing what the top word of science (of the day) told them too. The feed companies who sold the stuff weren't being unethical, they were selling a product that everyone thought was good for cows.

Hind sight is 20/20. Be a little kinder in your assement of anyone who tried to do the right thing, but simply did not know better. We can only operate from the information available. There has been lots of new information in the last few years and everyone I know has altered operations to accomodate that without any whining or sniveling. 

I have heard nothing but support for more protection from mad cow from cattle producers. I've not heard of one cattle producer who is against more testing for BSE. I've not heard of one cattle producer who advocats feeding cattle meat and bone meal (now that we know what happens). In fact, If someone were to do that, I strongly suspect his cattle running neighbors would promptly run him right out of town. We all stand and sink together, whether we like it or not. Cattle producers know more than anyone the devastation that BSE can cause this industry and no one is wanting that to happen.

There is still much to be done and many producers need to be educated about BSE. The government is the one who can mandate these things...and must. I don't know a single cattle farmer who is going to argue with any law that is designed to safeguard the beef supply. Our lives depend on it.

Jena


----------



## mizattitude (Nov 10, 2003)

Hind sight is 20/20. Be a little kinder in your assement of anyone who tried to do the right thing, but simply did not know better. We can only operate from the information available. 

..............................................

I am sure the regular cattle farmer only worked with what they had..The corporations were looking for cheaper feed..and were able to sell it to the farmers at a decent price. They could expand their herd and turn a small profit. That is reasonable. They were told it was safe.
I do, however think the corporations should have done more studies or at least stopped cutting corners when it came to cattle feed. If the practice of feeding inferior feed was common as late as 1949..I would surmise that MCD would have cropped up back then. If it really hadn't...then my guess is that there are other factors involved or they were able to hide it very well.. I mean it really doesn't make sense to me that as late as the 80's. this disease was just then showing itself? 
I would personally want the MCD testing..even if it did raise the cost of beef. I still plan to expand my herd..but it will definitely be from a local cattle farmer..I wouldn't go back to the auction.


----------



## Guest (Dec 29, 2003)

I have been reading up(for the last year or so) on a theory of the cause of the BSE/CWD and it really makes sense. Unfortunately this fellow has been harrassed by his government. Do a google on Mark or Nigel Purdey from the UK. In short, he has found a high manganese/low copper condition in all hot spots of CWD and add in a electromagnetic contamination. Apparently he had a dairy herd back in the 80's. Lots more info there. What do you all think about this? Marilyn, the farmer's wife.......


----------



## dlwelch (Aug 26, 2002)

_I think there is also an unknown trigger factor caused by 
exposure to something - orangeophorphorus? _ 

_Do a google on Mark or Nigel Purdey _ 
============================================

The following was posted on an organic farming/ranching message
forum yesterday. Worth the reading...IMO.

http://www.mercola.com/2000/dec/17/bovine_spongiform_disease.htm


Linda


----------



## mizattitude (Nov 10, 2003)

Marilyn,

I have seen studies of this type years ago. There is supposed to be a correlation between cancer and electromagnetic fields. I will say that high mercury contents does show to have an effect on the brain. Heck, who knew that lead was that dangerous? 
It is very possible that what nigel says is true..but wouldn't that have an effect on more cattle? 
Its so hard to get straight answers because to do that..people stand to lose money. It seems only when the Stuff hits the fan will they cough up some idea about how it all got started and start making changes. 
I


----------



## mizattitude (Nov 10, 2003)

and predicts the incidence in humans and animals: a cluster of CJD in Slovakia, Eastern Europe -around a manganese plant; Rocky Mountain deer with Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD), who were found to be eating pine needles rich in manganese; the futile slaughter of sheep in Cyprus -only for BSE to reemerge within years. 
................................................


That was taken from the link Linda posted. I am kindof confused. They are saying that high maganses is one of the causes? Or does one have to be exposed to OP first?

That is REALLY interesting...and certainly makes sense.


----------



## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

I read the Purdy stuff a while back. I thought he was onto something with the organophosphates (maybe), but then when he added the sonic boom thing, it seemed to go over the top.

I don't know if there's a difference between different types of magnesium, but people have been feeding cattle magnesium for a long, long time in the form of mineral supplements. If the magnesium is the same thing, then I would think that there would be many, many more sick cows.

I've also never heard that head lice stuff can cause CJD or Alzheimer's, but then I've never checked into it.

Jena


----------



## Shelly (Nov 7, 2002)

We have three sale barns within an hours drive, they shut down (as planned) between Christmas and New Years. The first to have a sale will be this Friday it will be interesting to see what happens, especially with cows as that is what seems to have been the hardest hit in Canada.

I hadn't heard of Purdey until today. This is the link I read: http://www.purdeyenvironment.com/IntroHyp.htm He didn't reference a sonic boom, I agree Jena, that would make me skeptical too. He does feel there's a genetic predisposition and then environmental triggers which may include organophospates, and an imbalance of Mn (Manganese, not Magnesium) and Cu among other things. If his information about groups of people in an area getting either CJD or vCJD is accurate, it seems pretty interesting.

Somehow the accepted wisdom that TSE's are spread soley by injesting infected material does not seem like it can be the whole story to me. It also seems likely that when entire herds are "disposed of" because a positive was cow was found there, that we may be destroying those animals that are genetically immune and that may be a mistake. I think the assumption that these diseases are any less complicated than cancer or alzhiemers (sp?) is overly hopeful at best.

Well, it only took the industry 25 or 30 years to convice most people that beef isn't as bad for them as they were told in the '70's, at least we've learned a lot about PR and marketing and educating the public in that time frame. Maybe we can recover from this more quickly.


----------



## Shelly (Nov 7, 2002)

Just had a thought - haven't they identified a scrapie gene in sheep? Interesting that scrapie had been blamed for BSE for a while, but now I don't see it lumped in with BSE, CWD and vCJD in reports anymore, yet I think it's still considered a TSE. (Ross are you out there?) (Maybe it's just because they didn't make a catchy abbreviation for it


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mizattitude, I would like to point out that since our case of BSE, there has been no testing of our live cattle crossing the border, because there are none. The US does not accept any live cattle from Canada since the date of the discovery of the animal and there is no date (at this time) for normal trade to resume. It would be pretty tricky to test everything crossing the border if trade should resume because those folks that just bought a fancy, high powered bull or cow would find it a big unsettling to pay $30,000+ for a carcass. I also question why you're so quick to assume that because the cow came from Canada, that is where she contracted the disease? Our feeding practices are almost identical to the US feeding practices, the only difference I can think of is that out west, we feed more barley and less corn. If my information is correct, this cow crossed the border long before the BSE thing ever hit. The crossing regulations are so rigid that it's caused some funny little things. No Canadian bulls were allowed to cross to perform at the National Finals Rodeo, even when the organizers presented to your government, an offer to keep the bulls in a sealed container till the reached their destination and in full isolation for their duration. There is also a rodeo performer that uses Watusi steers for his act, the One Arm Bandit, and he came to Canada to perform this year, with his steers. He had been told that he could return them back home as long as he destroyed and disposed of them when the time came but never sell them at auction or into your food chain. In the 10 days he was up here, the rules changed and 6 highly trained show animals are no sitting, freezing at a ranch in Alberta. To add to the regulations, your country will not accept any ruminants from Canada, not just cattle. There are some paperwork problems with the cow that was found in Washington, our paperwork says that a hiefer was imported to the US and the US paperwork indicates that a mature cow crossed the border. There was a time when we did have live animals crossing back and forth between the two countries but it was never as easy as just loading a trailer and heading out. We brought two heifers in from Colorado several years ago and the paperwork and regulations is not for the faint hearted. Did you know that they must be under quarrantine in your country and again in mine? They must pass a long series of health tests, including blood analysis an have all vaccinations, vets inspect them on both sides of the border and full test are run again when the enter their new country. After all that, somebody has to sit back and figure out where the cow, that is now several years, became infected with BSE. I have never fed animal byproducts to animals but would ask those wiser than me to answer one question, if there was no BSE in either country, then how could an animal come up with BSE, even if they were accidently or on purpose, fed feed intended for another species? Based on the popular theory, you would have to have the disease to pass the disease. If you work on some of the other premises, things make a lot more sense.


----------



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

This is just Ole' Ken talking so take it for what it is worth:

I think Scrapie, MCD and Chronic Wasting Disease in deer/elk at different ailments, although apparently all related to central nervous system disorder. Then this is Johnes Disease in cattle which is a type of wasting disease and pigs and goats get something similar.

Scrapie is call that because it causes an intense itching and sheep with it will rub themselves raw trying to scratch what itches. They go off feed and do poorly because they are so distracted by it. It was just a convenient explanation for MCD at the time because sheep carcasses with Scrapie were made into M&MB for cattle feed. However, that has been happening for a very long time. Why would it suddenly cause an outbreak of MCD?

MCD occurs naturally on the order of about one in a million from what I understand. If you have 3-million dairy cattle in a country, you would logically expect about three cases a year. I strongly suspect cattle do have a gene for it, just almost all have a genetic immunity to it unless something happens to affect that immunity - a trigger agent. Mark Purdry says orangophosphate and perhaps other things.

Those three cases a year may have ended up in the human food supply, and may have caused vCJD in the past. However, it was so rare it was mistaken for Alzheimers. What brought it to the attention in England was young people were coming down with Alzheimers-type symptoms and dying far quicker than would be expected if it were Alzheimers.

Remember CJD occurs spontangeously in humans and some may just have either a natural susceptibility or it or have been affected by a trigger agent. Orangophosphate in lice shampoo? Perhaps MCD had nothing to do with the vCJD there - just coincidence. Who knows.

Chronic wasting disease probably also occurs naturally in deer and elk and clusters of it may be explained by a trigger agent also. I doubt it are getting it from cattle or cattle feed. More likely to me is their eating the bones of animals which have died of it. Sort of a compound effect under the right conditions. One gets it naturally, dies and others of the same species eat the spinal column which still has traces of the spinal cord. Ten get it and die, further spreading it when they die.

I strongly suspect answers are going to be far more complicated than researchers would like.

Ken S. in WC TN


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Ken, I totally agree with you. We need far more research.


----------



## RoyalOaksRanch (Nov 14, 2003)

wr said:


> Jena, I do agree with your spontanious occurence theory, another that's been batted around up here by vets is that the disease jumped species from deer/elk. QUOTE]
> Colorado has taken a big look at CWD "jumping species" as you call it. They have taken and run cows in with deer/elk known to have CWD and it has yet to jump species...They have been doing this now for about 2 yrs that I know of, and maybe lots longer.. IM a huge watcher of the CWD since I hunt in Colorado..I subscribe to the DOW and get updates of any new CWD findings etc.
> I personally find the fact that a case of Mad Cow finally being found here in the US is not a big shocker. It was bound to happen sooner or later.. Though the thought of someone tryng to ID every single cow thru some tagging system is a bit rediculous. Ive yet to hear of ANY species, horse, cow, dog etc, that has been successfully ID'ed thru every generation, every accidental mating, every single sell and resale..Heck we cant even keep track of humans!


----------



## jessandcody (Nov 21, 2003)

[QUOTE=Ken Schar

{Let's keep it in context. Likely most of the population of England was exposed to MCD-tainted beef. Yet, according to an article in yesterday's CSM, "...A total of 153 people worldwide have been reported to have contracted the human form of the illness, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."}

Who said anything about humans in this mix.....not me Ken! I do belive that an out break of mad cow could be considered an illness related dissaster, one that effects our economy, food supply, and national confidence with our producers. But I never mentioned humans getting the illness. Though humans do from time to time contract animal illnesses. Look at Anthrax! I dont eat much meat from the store as it is but when I hear about how large scale producers raise beef and the illnesses that follow, It just remindes me or why I want to be self-sefficiant!!!!

Cody


----------

