# Bought Another 45 Watt Solar Kit



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Harbor Freight has the kits on sale.

So far, I'm only using 1 panel out of the 7 I have.


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

We also have one of these kits, and I want to get a few more. People say that it is more expensive, you can buy bigger panels for less online... I just don't see it. Specially once you add in shipping.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

I bought this one a few year back and can recommend it. The only negative is the chintzy plastic pipe frame. I tested it on a full sun day at 58 watts.

http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-5004...ADLG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319560859&sr=8-1

I am using it to charge 4 gel cells that are used to charge other batteries and intermittent use of a small tv.


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

Bad link seven. These HBs have pretty cheezy aluminum frames too, so I guess it is a given, considering you get what you pay for. On the other side of the coin, you spend a small fortune on the extras, like mounting frames and other hardware, when you by an $800 panel from the "real" suppliers.

What I want to do, is get enough of these smaller panels, and build my own frame. Raw materials like angle iron is fairly cheap and easily available... easier at the big cities an hour away


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Capt Quirk said:


> We also have one of these kits, and I want to get a few more. People say that it is more expensive, you can buy bigger panels for less online... I just don't see it. Specially once you add in shipping.


Well, just the panels alone (15w) run 60 bucks at HF.....that's 4 bucks/watt.
LOT of places selling panels, REAL panels, for less than 4 bucks/watt.

I ordered a couple of 175w panels to finish up an array I'd put up couple years back, they were $509 each, plus 70 bucks for shipping (UPS), which was cheaper than the sales tax I'd have paid in TN.
I could have gotten panels much cheaper, but I needed to match the ones on the existing array pretty closely in output was the only reason I went with these.
The orginal 175's I bought 3 years ago were 800 bucks/ea....plus shipping.

509 + 509 + 70 = $1088 / 350w = $3.10/watt

http://www.sadoun.com/solar/Solar/Modules/PWM-175W-Solar-Panel-Module.htm

To see MUCH cheaper prices (some per panel, some you have to buy a pallet load), see this website:

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm

You can buy 230-240 watt panels now for $1.60/watt.....and shipping ain't THAT much.

I just wouldn't sink much money in those Harbor Freight toys when you can buy REAL panels for less than half the price per watt.


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

You aren't the first one to break down the cost per watt. When figured out like that, it does seem cheaper. However, to spend the $500-$800 for a panel that is "cheaper per watt", would mean we would have to skip meals for a week, not pay bills, or go without gas. I can save a little aside for a $125 kit much easier.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

The kit was only $150 plus it comes with 2 5w lights and a charge controller. So per watt was about $3.


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> The kit was only $150 plus it comes with 2 5w lights and a charge controller. So per watt was about $3.


With the 20% off coupon, and the fact that it is also on sale for $125 at times, further drops the price per watt. But... neither of my lights worked, and the charge controller is crap. Really. Many reviews say it died after a few hundred hours, and it is severely limited in what it can handle, mainly the 3 panels it comes with. I wouldn't use those as selling points my friend


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## LadyHawk77 (Oct 11, 2011)

I now run half my house of these HF "toys". Work very well for me. I was able to watch for sales and buy when I had the money saved up. I can not drop $500 a panel. 
I do have one "real" panel. Was able to buy it with my electric bill savings from using the HF kits. My HF panels out perform it on clowdy days. I get a lot of cloudy days.
I believe the HF kits ar a great tool to get people into solar. Nothing bad about that, imo!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Be curious to know more about your setup. Things like Kw/hr consumption, production from those panels and so on.

The average household in the US uses about 900 kw/hrs month.....I'm gonna guess you are a whole lot less than average on use, since it would take 200 to 300 (or more) of those harbor freight panels to come close to producing 450kw/hrs month.

So, lay it out for me.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

I'd recommend sticking with the real panels, if you are seriously looking into powering your home. The ones with 20 year warranties,quality construction, and better materials. Not the cheap chinese knockoffs, like the harbor freight ones. Unless this is just to play around with. Quality solar panels are more inexpensive than they've ever been. (due in large part to the flood of cheap panels from China!). The US still makes quality panels.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

*"I believe the HF kits ar a great tool to get people into solar. Nothing bad about that, imo!"*

I've always said this. It's a great tool to learn with and it isn't difficult to get. It's nice to go into a store and actually get your hands on an item instead of hoping you get something that you want from a description.


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## LadyHawk77 (Oct 11, 2011)

Yep, we averaged around 350kw a month before playing with solar. We have propane hot water and heat.
4 HF kits and 1 mono panel, a Missouri Wind and solar cc, six 6v batts, 2000w pure sine wave inverter. They are all hooked up to a transfer switch. Runs my upstairs just fine. If we have a strech of bad weather we can throw the switch and it goes back to grid. It is fun. My kids love it and by doing it a little at a time my hubby did not freak about the money.
It is just fun. Never had a off grid plan and still do not. Just started to see what we could do with them so I started playing.
I'm not trying to compete with anyone, just don't like to see people get the wind taken out of their sails when they are excited about something. I don't think anyone thinks the HF kit is a dream but it is fun. We should all just encouage eachother.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

"I'm not trying to compete with anyone, just don't like to see people get the wind taken out of their sails when they are excited about something. I don't think anyone thinks the HF kit is a dream but it is fun. *We should all just encouage eachother*."

Amen.. I'm still small beans but I'm perfectly happy. I remember folks starting small and bypass me big time. Everyone has their own personal view and I respect that.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Not trying to remove any wind from any sails....but a whole lot of folks buy into thinking they can produce enough energy with a few 15w panels to free themselves from the grid, and the facts are that just isn't so. I simply want folks to understand they either have to use a WHOLE LOT less power than the typical US household, or be willing to pony up a WHOLE LOT of money for AltE equipment.

For example, you stated you "run half your house", and have 4 of the HF kits and one mono panel.....how many watts total is that ? Something along the order of 500 watts ?

And you stated you used 350 kw/hrs/month. 

How does 500w produce 175kw/hrs/month ? Assuming 8hrs of GOOD sun every single day ( a most highly unlikely situation ), 8 x 500w = 4kw/hrs/day ( with zero loss in the system ) = 120kw/hrs month......real world figures, more like 50-75kw/hrs/mo.

Based on my experiences in real world conditions, it would take a 1500 to 2,000 watt system to replace 175kw/hrs/month in all but the most ideal of sunny months.

Again, not trying to knock your efforts, but the math doesn't add up. Perhaps you didn't really mean "1/2 " your power use, as you said "it runs my upstairs"......which can be a very non-specific quantity of power.

I've built my system and added to it over the course of the last 3 years (and 3 expansions) as I've found what it REALLY takes to produce enough power to come close to running a house. Right now, I'm at 5,950w of panels, running on 3 tracking arrays ( meaning they produce about 25% more power than fixed mount panels ), and this month, it produced right at 600 kw/hrs out of the 750 we used. Note I'm using less than the national average.

I think HF panels are great for experimentation.....one can run a few LED lights, and such off them.....but to really get serious about power production that the typical house uses, you've got to get a serious system.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

12vman said:


> *"I believe the HF kits ar a great tool to get people into solar. Nothing bad about that, imo!"*
> 
> I've always said this. It's a great tool to learn with and it isn't difficult to get. It's nice to go into a store and actually get your hands on an item instead of hoping you get something that you want from a description.


I agree too. We started with 1 and ended up with 3 before we went looking for something else. With my spring I was able to go with a water supplied generator. On grid was never an option. My son was interested and it was a great, cheap learning project for the 2 of us. He went on to an engineered fully integrated system when he built his cabin. I understand TnAndys position and it is great that he lets people know right up front that the average homeowner would be wasting their time and money trying to buy enough to run a typical house(hold). I use 1 as a 12 volt source to run 3 LED lights, charge this old cell phone, charge batteries and run a small fan. And 2 to run 1 LED light and a small pump in my aquaponic greenhouse. Found out quick 1 panel would not do it even though everything tested it should have. Ruined 2 perfectly good batteries because of it. We learned a lot, quickly. Many of us using HF systems are not typical energy users. 2-3-4 heads are better than 1 and information up front is always cheaper than the school of hard knocks....James


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

We are living entirely off of those 3 15watt HF panels, 8 Walmart DeepCycle batteries, and a 4500 watt HF generator. It sucks, but we get by.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Sunelec.com has Evergreen panels on clearance for $0.78 a watt and some Sun panels for $0.88 a watt. A 200 watt panel would run about the same as thr 45 watt kits.

WWW


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Sunelec.com has Evergreen panels on clearance for $0.78 a watt and some Sun panels for $0.88 a watt. A 200 watt panel would run about the same as thr 45 watt kits.
> 
> WWW


 Amazing how the prices have dropped... I paid 2.75 a watt for those 200watt Evergreen panels just 3 years ago.... Wow! ANd they are US made, of the highest quality. I wouldnt mess with that Chinese junk on a bet.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Evergreen has ceased manufacturing in the US. They still make panels overseas. I think these may be the last stock of the US panels they have left so they are trying to clear them out of the warehouse. For the price I would buy some if I had the money right now even though the warrantee may end up being worthless.

WWW


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

I have several Harbor Freight 45 watt kits as well as alot of the "Real" panels. I really like the HF 45 kit(except for the charge controller). They are easy to instal, (don't have to round up material to build brackets and wire that you would need to hook the "Real" panels up)only takes minutes. If I need a little power at a remote shed/building I stick one of the 45 watt kits on it. I have one on the tractor shed to run my fence charger and for a little light when I have to go there at night to get something. I have one at my chicken coop, it runs my automatic chicken doors and I use one of the kit lights that turns on a couple hours before daylight. I have one where my aquaponic garden is to run the pump. I have one on a remote camper that I lived in for several years just to run the DC lights at night for a few minutes while I showered and got ready for bed. They are a quick fix for applications like this where you need only a little power.


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## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

Baby steps. Little HF toys are a great way to get started without dropping all that money on a real system all at once. After a couple successful small projects and then a lot of examining your needs, going all in isn't so much of a blind jump. A couple small projects might be all someone needs for emergencies, anyway.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Capt Quirk said:


> With the 20% off coupon, and the fact that it is also on sale for $125 at times, further drops the price per watt. But... neither of my lights worked, and the charge controller is crap. Really. Many reviews say it died after a few hundred hours, and it is severely limited in what it can handle, mainly the 3 panels it comes with. I wouldn't use those as selling points my friend


Where do you get the 20% off coupon? I'm converting a long wheel base cargo van into a camping van and want to use one of these to power a few things when I'm camping rough.


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## Jonathan (Oct 26, 2011)

I am considering buying one of these kits to play around with. It will be my intro to solar power. I will be using it on a tool shed, primarily to power lights and to charge batteries. I would, however, like the ability to run power tools for short periods of time. The description on the HF website says you need a 300 watt inverter. Is there any reason a larger inverter wouldn't work? I was thinking of picking up a 1500 watt inverter so I could power a circular saw for short periods (cutting 2x4s, etc).


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## Capt Quirk (Sep 24, 2011)

A circular saw will run batteries down fast, but a small jig saw will work fine.


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

Evergreen is quitting here in the u.s. at least and is really doing right on the buy out offers. A friend of mine checked into it, and called me about them. He will have to buy a pallet to get the price , but well worth it.


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## Jonathan (Oct 26, 2011)

Capt Quirk said:


> A circular saw will run batteries down fast, but a small jig saw will work fine.


Yes, I realize that a circular saw will run the batteries down very quickly. The saw is usually only used for a couple of minutes at a time, and not very often, so I wasn't to worried about that. For any big project that required a lot of cutting I could bring out the generator if needed, but I'd like to do as much as possible using solar.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Even that 1500 watt inverter might not start a circular saw. . . . . . . .

And if it is a cheapy inverter you might only see a puff of smoke.............


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

On EBAY you can buy a 50 watt Ramsond solar panel (mono-crystalline with 25 year warranty) for $139.99 and free shipping. Everyone says the charge controller isn't any good in those kits so you can buy Morningstar 10 amp controller for another $60. Throw in a battery and you have a much better setup then the one from harbor freight. Yes, still costs more, but it'll probably last longer. I have a similar setup that I use for camping to power some lights and charge my cell phone.


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## Jonathan (Oct 26, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> Even that 1500 watt inverter might not start a circular saw. . . . . . . .


My saw is 12 amps, and the inverter I was considering was 1500 watt continuous, 3000 watt peak. I might go with a 2000/3000 instead. Still, the question remains, is there any reason why a larger inverter would not work with the HF system? I see no reason for there to be a problem, other than that it specifies a 300 watt inverter.


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## Jonathan (Oct 26, 2011)

Kevingr said:


> On EBAY you can buy a 50 watt Ramsond solar panel (mono-crystalline with 25 year warranty) for $139.99 and free shipping. Everyone says the charge controller isn't any good in those kits so you can buy Morningstar 10 amp controller for another $60. Throw in a battery and you have a much better setup then the one from harbor freight. Yes, still costs more, but it'll probably last longer. I have a similar setup that I use for camping to power some lights and charge my cell phone.


Thanks Kevingr, I'll check that out. I'm basically just looking for something simple for this first attempt. I figure everyone needs to start somewhere, and I'd rather start by spending a few hundred dollars on a system for a shed, rather than several thousand for a house and make a bunch of mistakes.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Jonathan said:


> My saw is 12 amps, and the inverter I was considering was 1500 watt continuous, 3000 watt peak. I might go with a 2000/3000 instead. Still, the question remains, is there any reason why a larger inverter would not work with the HF system?


No, it most likely will work....just for a WHOLE LOT shorter time.

Say you run the saw 5 minutes. 12amp x 120v = 1440w x 5/60 = 120w/hrs, on the AC side.....and that doesn't take into consideration the start surge each time you fire it up for a new 2x4. 

By the time you back it up on the DC side and consider the inverter losses, the battery input inefficiency, and what the panels will produce, it will likely take all day ( or maybe more ) replace what you can take from the battery in 5 minutes of saw use.....or maybe less. If you're not real careful, you'll trash a battery(s) real quick discharging too deep too often.

That's most likely WHY they only include a 300w inverter.....to give you a semi-reasonable run time on a small load.


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## Jonathan (Oct 26, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> No, it most likely will work....just for a WHOLE LOT shorter time.
> 
> Say you run the saw 5 minutes. 12amp x 120v = 1440w x 5/60 = 120w/hrs, on the AC side.....and that doesn't take into consideration the start surge each time you fire it up for a new 2x4.
> 
> ...


Let's say I'm using a 12 volt 55AH battery. Assuming I want to keep the battery above 50% charge, I should be able to run a circular saw for maybe 10 minutes total, right? That should cover the vast majority of my needs. AT least 90% (probably more) of my electricity use will be for lights, charging batteries, or maybe a small fan. It will be rare that I need to use the circular saw, or other power saw out there. Some of the times I can just use my cordless circular saw, but the few times I need to use the bigger saw for a few minutes I wanted to have the option. If I do need to run it for more than 10 minutes or so I can use the generator.


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

I being a retired framer, can tell you that a good inverter like the trace 1512 will start all my saws. The trick is to have a small light etc on so the inverter is fully on and not in search mode. 2500 w. model better, but no problems.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Get the 20% off and the $149 coupon on Ebay for about a buck.


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