# Black Russian Terrier/ Great Pyr mix for farm protection.



## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

I have a small (3 acre) homestead, and a small assortment of farm animals. My great pyrenees does a great job of keeping coyotes and neighbor dogs away, but is not as guarded against strange people as I want her to be. She has let 3 people in two gates, right up to my front door, within the past two months; I would prefer a dog that does not let people on my property unless I am there opening the gate. I saw an ad locally for an accidental breeding of a Black Russian Terrier and GP...did a little research and the BRT are supposed to be good guardians....but does anyone know how they do with animals? Do they have a high prey drive?


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

krebolj said:


> I have a small (3 acre) homestead, and a small assortment of farm animals. My great pyrenees does a great job of keeping coyotes and neighbor dogs away, but is not as guarded against strange people as I want her to be. She has let 3 people in two gates, right up to my front door, within the past two months; I would prefer a dog that does not let people on my property unless I am there opening the gate. I saw an ad locally for an accidental breeding of a Black Russian Terrier and GP...did a little research and the BRT are supposed to be good guardians....but does anyone know how they do with animals? Do they have a high prey drive?


And yes they have high prey drive-- I drive to SF a few days out of the week and we see them there.
They were developed as a Military attack dog to attack People. You need a high drive dog for that. You may not see the drive for 2 or 3 years (any giant dog takes a couple of years to mature)...
And great pyrs have less prey drive (I dunno very limited experience with those although we have a 12 wk old grt pyr cross pup ourselves)? But its hard to tell with the crosses you just never know which trait is going to predominate.

One thing I do have to tell you is -- many of those military style breeds that have a Schutzhund background-- were developed to work closely with a handler-- they and need and strive to work with a human handler-- 
my experience with my giant schnauzer has shown me this-- I ended up sending her to a schutzund trainer for boot camp-- she needed rules and limits and more training that my other dogs (Boxers, and now a berner, and the pup) did not. We have 2 acres- the other dogs are outside doing their thing-- she is.... right at the glass doors to my bedroom waiting for me to go outside (the back door is open and if the other dogs sound an alarm she will be right at the fence ready to work)...But she does seek me out and wants me ...alot....
Its one of the reasons we chose the pyr/anatolian cross pup- he is very content to appreciate me when I am outside, but does not have that burning desire to be with me at all times.

Oh and are you a social person? Do you have kids? My schnauzer will not accept strangers at all. My roommate of 14 years (at our apartment in the city where I work and take her to when I am working there)- she still charges him every time he opens the door barking. Kids parents, neighbor who walk by it is kinda embarrassing, but she charges and bites at them (we worked on her really really hard to not break skin, but they do not know that), she will not tolerate anyone who is not me, or my DH or DD, but Grandpa did spend a couple of summers with us, she will let him in the house, after a few days reacquaintance...
That drive against humans is a bit of a responsibility and a chore (its safer and easier managed in a smaller package)...
SO, your cross pup could go either way....


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

It could be a fine general farm dog but Black Russian terriers are very serious dogs and generally not recommended to be kept as pets. If you can't control this dog it could be a huge liability and pyrs are not known for obedience. This is not the type of dog I would just let have free run of the place but with supervision and training I don't see why it couldn't be a farm dog if you are around to intervene before it gets into trouble. Its hard to say what type of dog you will get with the cross.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Maybe you could just post a beware of dog sign, and/or no tresspassing. The lgds are generally bred to be people friendly, but protective of livestock so a cross might not be such a good idea. You could also try another breed altogether for personal protection.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I'd be much more careful in picking a dog. If the dog ends up being more like a GP, this isn't what you want. If it ends up being like a Russian terrier, this isn't what you want. There are other dogs that are bred to be guards, but more laid back. Keep looking.


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

wendle said:


> Maybe you could just post a beware of dog sign, and/or no tresspassing. The lgds are generally bred to be people friendly, but protective of livestock so a cross might not be such a good idea. You could also try another breed altogether for personal protection.


That's the thing. I had a German Shepherd whose Grand-sire was #2 for criminal apprehension in the country. She never had a desire to jump the yard fence and mess with the livestock, but was great at not letting people in...then one day she decided to jump the fence while outside to use the bathroom and mauled my sheep. I gave her back to her breeder, the breeder then gave me another dog who was purchased with the intention of being a herding dog but was scared of the livestock and has zero prey drive since I have an affinity for the breed and just want a GSD for a pet that works...but still leaves me with the dilemma of not having a dog to keep people off the property. 


My husband works for the Sheriff's dept and has a crazy schedule that includes night shift. I don't like being out here by myself with a dog that will let people come in the property gate and through another gate to my house without so much as barking. I want something that will bark/growl/ bite if someone comes through the gate or over the fence without me there to let them in but won't kill my sheep either.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

krebolj said:


> That's the thing. I had a German Shepherd whose Grand-sire was #2 for criminal apprehension in the country. She never had a desire to jump the yard fence and mess with the livestock, but was great at not letting people in...then one day she decided to jump the fence while outside to use the bathroom and mauled my sheep. I gave her back to her breeder, the breeder then gave me another dog who was purchased with the intention of being a herding dog but was scared of the livestock and has zero prey drive since I have an affinity for the breed and just want a GSD for a pet that works...but still leaves me with the dilemma of not having a dog to keep people off the property.
> 
> 
> My husband works for the Sheriff's dept and has a crazy schedule that includes night shift. I don't like being out here by myself with a dog that will let people come in the property gate and through another gate to my house without so much as barking. I want something that will bark/growl/ bite if someone comes through the gate or over the fence without me there to let them in but won't kill my sheep either.


What you guys want is a Mastiff a true one with little prey drive (this would rule out something like a Cane Corso, which I lusted after for years as "the world's only coursing mastiff")-- a huge 220lb Neopolitan snoozing in your yard would definitely be a deterrent- and they do not like strangers --and they activate in the presence of them..
Personally I like the Bernese Mt dog- mine is just 120 lbs and he gets extremely unsettled if ANYONE approaches and stands there barking very deeply- its very loud -- zero prey drive and not very active (spurts of energy then he lays down unless he preceives danger-- he will not settle as long as he feels there is something out there)... 
He is a pretty dog though and someone on another Forum suggested they are just too cute to be threatening (they are a long haired tricolored dog similar to the Rottweiler but with a white blaze down their chest)...
I am not sure about that (but then again I have a giant schnauzer to back him up)....


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I had a standard poodle, 25 inches at the shoulder which isn't a giant dog, but big (looked bigger the longer the coat was because their fur stands up). I can tell you that it didn't matter what kind of foo foo hair style that dog had, nobody mistook him for a foo foo dog. A dog that barks is a huge deterrent. It's not just the fear of being bitten that makes bad people go away, it's the barking that alerts the humans.

Any dog larger than 60 pounds that will bark and has a low energy level should work for you. Any breed that is a known man killer is a huge liability for you. Most family dogs will bite if provoked. A dog bite is very painful.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

krebolj said:


> My husband works for the Sheriff's dept and has a crazy schedule that includes night shift. I don't like being out here by myself with a dog that will let people come in the property gate and through another gate to my house without so much as barking. I want something that will bark/growl/ bite if someone comes through the gate or over the fence without me there to let them in but won't kill my sheep either.


 I like a dog that will bark too, not so much the biting part though due to liability issues. Both my lgds will bark, but have shown no inclination to attack even when I have had strangers enter the property without me there. 

LGDs tend to be independent thinkers which wouldn't be good if they are people aggressive as you might not be able to call them off. 
It sounds like you are better off with one dog to protect your sheep and another dog for the home. I would look for low prey drive in case he escapes into the sheep pen.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

A Rottweiler might be a good fit. Mine were good all around farm dogs.


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

I actually was going to purchase a rottie before I bought my first GSD this spring. I was just turned off by what was locally available though. I visited a few places and was nearly attacked by the 4 month old puppy I was visiting to consider purchasing. I have two small, timid children so just gave up after that. 

The GSD that the breeder switched my original with is beginning to come out of his shell a bit more, with encouragement from my Golden Retriever believe it or not. My Golden (male, if that matters) is actually a good "warning" dog. He likes to bark at people as they come up to the property, I will just have to keep him inside more frequently so he can bark where I can hear (I have lost some hearing and don't always hear him if he is at the property line). He actually has more of the personality I would expect from an LGD. We almost lost him this year (toxic event, nothing genetic), and the vet managed to save him but said he wasn't going to live a full life most likely so we have decided to find a female to raise and breed him with so we can keep one of his puppies when it gets closer to that time. 

I did consider a standard poodle (because we also like to hunt waterfowl), but cannot find one for less than $2100 around me.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I know EXACTLY the kind of dog you want!!

A trained, mature one.

Seriously, not trying to be rude but there is no magic breed. There is no reason at all you can't teach your GSD to "speak" at the sight of people coming to your door.

Though honestly, I trained mine to be totally silent when anyone came in through the gate to the front door, but to go ballistic with noise should anyone set toe on my property in any other way. 

And it sounds as if your GSD is young. NO sane dog is going to react the way you want as a puppy. It is a puppy's job to be ok with everyone. If a dog less than a year old is _not_ ok with everyone either you have done something wrong or the dog is going to be too much for you to handle or more likely both. 
Thanks, but I don't want any high-strung, sharp animals deciding who can come around and what needs to be done about it. That is MY job, and I can train a dog to help me in that job, but one doing it's on it's own is nothing but a liability - what if one of your kid's friends stop by? Maybe the dog decides that kids are ok, but the kid's Dad is threat and needs attacked. No thanks!! I'll train my dog to do what I want, not get an aggressive breed and let it decide what to do.

Are there any dog handlers on the force? They can help you train your dog to bark at the right cues.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Our standard poodle was great. Look into rescue. Did you look for a puppy, or a grown dog? A year old dog is often much less expensive than a puppy, and a two year old dog even more so. Breeders often keep one or two from a litter as a potential show/breeding animal. If the puppy doesn't mature they way they want, you can get a beautiful dog.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I've got a retired show ***** - 4 year old 38-pound Miniature Bull Terrier - who will bark ferociously at anyone who comes onto your property that she doesn't recognize. Hasn't offered to bite anyone yet, but she puts on a good show. She's spayed, UTD on all her shots, and she can be yours for $300 plus transport costs. Since the pups I have sell for $2,800 -$3,000, that's a good price


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

Otter said:


> I know EXACTLY the kind of dog you want!!
> 
> A trained, mature one.
> 
> ...



Age wise, he is not a puppy anymore. He is just under two years old-the breeder got him back from the original home. He is a big behemoth of a dog who balks and runs to the opposite side of the house/ property when something "scary" happens. I've had him for a month and he hasn't once made a single noise...not a growl, whine, or bark at human, dog, or rodent. From the way he reacts to things, I suspect that the former home either left him in a 10x10 kennel after they found out he wouldn't herd or they abused him. The breeder was also a trainer, she trains for personal protection on a private level and several local law enforcement agencies...She told me right off the bat he didn't have the "stuff", but that he also will leave my livestock alone...he won't even chase a ball. Regardless of all of that, he has a home here. 

I DO want a dog that will keep people off my property, and definitely not let them waltz up to my house. I want a dog that will not let a person in the gate without me standing there letting them in....UPS man, local meth head, thief, rapist, murderer, or kid's friends. No one that doesn't live here has any business opening my front gate, and definitely not my yard gate. I am not always here, or outside, so keeping people out is not only my job- my dogs need to be able to make that decision as well.


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

Maura said:


> Our standard poodle was great. Look into rescue. Did you look for a puppy, or a grown dog? A year old dog is often much less expensive than a puppy, and a two year old dog even more so. Breeders often keep one or two from a litter as a potential show/breeding animal. If the puppy doesn't mature they way they want, you can get a beautiful dog.


That was puppy price.

Will ask around for one that didn't "make the cut".


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Call RenScot Kennels 843-504-6301 talk to Renae. They are In Galivant Ferry (over by Myrtle) explain the situation. They may have something retired or wanting to put out on a co-owner contract etc. _(They are 1 of 2 breeder's that I have no problem recommending their dogs to my own customers. Or hopping in a van and taking a female to breed with them)_ Outstanding in many areas, a lot of 1st's to their kennel's credit. 
http://www.renscottkennels.com/


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

krebolj said:


> Age wise, he is not a puppy anymore. He is just under two years old-the breeder got him back from the original home. He is a big behemoth of a dog who balks and runs to the opposite side of the house/ property when something "scary" happens. I've had him for a month and he hasn't once made a single noise...not a growl, whine, or bark at human, dog, or rodent. From the way he reacts to things, I suspect that the former home either left him in a 10x10 kennel after they found out he wouldn't herd or they abused him. The breeder was also a trainer, she trains for personal protection on a private level and several local law enforcement agencies...She told me right off the bat he didn't have the "stuff", but that he also will leave my livestock alone...he won't even chase a ball. Regardless of all of that, he has a home here.
> 
> I DO want a dog that will keep people off my property, and definitely not let them waltz up to my house. I want a dog that will not let a person in the gate without me standing there letting them in....UPS man, local meth head, thief, rapist, murderer, or kid's friends. No one that doesn't live here has any business opening my front gate, and definitely not my yard gate. I am not always here, or outside, so keeping people out is not only my job- my dogs need to be able to make that decision as well.


Then you want a giant schnauzer- fine with their family and children (if raised with them)- and their breed trait around guarding and being especially intolerant strangers is a strong one.
You could probably go with a standard schnauzer (much smaller at about 40-50lbs) - same extremely loud bark and tenaciousity-- but alittle easier package. Excellent excellent guard dogs.
But it is a responsibility.
Am not sure about breeders in your area, but the kennel I got mine from typically has older pups (anywhere from 12 weeks to 6months old) that she sells for half off (about $850, docked and cropped)-- its always good to see if breeders in your area have older pups they need to place, and the breeder I got mine from in my area does ship.... but we are all the way out on the other side of the country...(She has standards as well as giants, and usu needs to place giants as they have very large litters, I think she is retiring soon though)...


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I am in the exact same position you are. I have two Anatolian Shepherd dogs for livestock guardians, but need something more aggressive for personal protection. I am getting a Central Asian Shepherd later this year from a breeder that's located here in SC. I'll PM you the breeder's information. in the meantime, google the breed. They are awesome!


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok, if you want a man-eater I will not convince you otherwise, even though it will cost your dog it's life and you your bank account if he decides to put holes in the meter reader instead of just barking as taught.
Since you need a dog that bites on it's own volition, I'd suggest you delete this entire thread as it could be held against you in court as criminal intent the day your man eater tears into someone.

After being in your house only a month, and getting no training about what his job is, your GSD is still working out just who belongs there and who doesn't. And I can't help but wonder, if you're not willing to teach him, just what you're going to do with a puppy or young dog of some of the breeds mentioned here. 
Have you ever worked a giant schnauzer? 
I have, and they are not for the laid back owner. Someone who can't teach a GSD to bark on a trigger can not raise a Giant Schnauzer, is going to have a lot of trouble raising an American Bulldog, and certainly by _no_ means can handle a Central Asian Shepherd. 

A bigger, badder, meaner dog is not the answer. A well trained dog is. My GSD mix weighed all of 55 pounds, and when I said Down and he stopped barking and dropped like a stone and calmly looked at the person approaching me, grown men crossed the street to give him a wide berth. He knew - because I taught him - that his* job* was to bark and intimidate people who did X, Y or Z, and to leave alone other people. I never needed nor wanted a dog who was going to take it into his head to randomly bite someone.

You're also going to run into another problem. With your naturally aggressive dog any dog savvy person will be able to waltz right in. I've proven that to people over and over again. Just down the road there's 100+ pounds of big, black brute with several bites to his credit who slinks back behind his house silently when I walk down the drive. I'm a bitty 5'2 woman and I've never put a finger on him. But I talk Dog, I told him I was not to be trifled with and he will not. The junkyard mastiff wiggles up to me like a happy pup for the same reason.

Now a trained dog - I can't do that. A trained dog knows his job and will do it till his owner says stop.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Otter said:


> Ok, if you want a man-eater I will not convince you otherwise, even though it will cost your dog it's life and you your bank account if he decides to put holes in the meter reader instead of just barking as taught.
> Since you need a dog that bites on it's own volition, I'd suggest you delete this entire thread as it could be held against you in court as criminal intent the day your man eater tears into someone.
> 
> After being in your house only a month, and getting no training about what his job is, your GSD is still working out just who belongs there and who doesn't. And I can't help but wonder, if you're not willing to teach him, just what you're going to do with a puppy or young dog of some of the breeds mentioned here.
> ...



Otter you are absolutely right. 
(I feel complimented re: your comments re: the Giant Schnauzer, and it was alotta hard work and training to raise her, I did suggest a standard schnauzer, but same thing they all need training-- again , you are right on target)...
I guess I was thinking if OP was considering an Central Asian Shepherd, then a giant schnauzer would be less of a risk-- I would not actually consider a CAS they are toooo dangerous in the wrong hands.
I guess most of the guarding breeds with "manstopping" power (quote from Protection dog website) are a serious liability.
Maybe a Boxer? 
I was just responding to Woodpecker's thread on her "Boxer Puppy" in working and companion animals...
That might be all she needs, and as a female would be good fit for her young GS and could draw him out of his shell, they are great watchdogs and LOVE their people, great with kids and have a fine tolerance for them--
but, as in most pups, rambunctious (such clowns, they have a sense of humor, which is what makes them kid -friendly) and will need training.....


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

Otter- I don't care to know what your issue with me is, but I do not at all appreciate your implication that I have not worked with my GSD on anything since he has been here, or that I don't have control over my dogs. My dogs all have basic obedience down to a t, and know the rules of the house. It was never my intention to buy an aggressive breed and throw it out in the field and let it rule; anyone with half a brain knows that doing that is asking for trouble. My GSD is from working lines, was sold to a farm where he "lived" for a year until they decided they didn't want to feed him anymore but didn't want to shoot him either. He then went back to the breeder who trains the GSD she raises for both tracking and protection for many police departments statewide where she attempted to work with him and couldn't get him to do anything FOR SIX MONTHS. Even then he didn't bark or growl regardless of what method they used. 

So I ask you, if this dog has not made so much as a peep in the last 7 months how are you going to teach him to bark on command? Typically, you reward the dog for barking and go from there...how do you reward something that he doesn't do on his own or with coercion?

Oh, and since you couldn't take the hint that your kind of advice was not what I was looking for last time- I'll make it clear this time. I was looking for people with experience with more aggressive breeds. Not someone with little dog, ankle biter syndrome who thinks they are God's gift to dogs.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

The beauty of my being on the forum for a_ very_ long time is you can see my experience by doing a search. And I can see yours 

I have no issue with you, I'm just pointing out the reality that a large, fierce dog is a liability.

How would I train your GSD to bark? A small step at a time, and no protection training necessary. Tell me, how many people are going to try to figure out if the GSD barking at them is really mean, attack trained, or just knows to "Speak" when someone comes to the gate. 

Something that should be "clear" to anyone is if you ask for advice on a public forum - you'll get it. 

CAjerseychick, you are exactly right, and you SHOULD be proud of raising a Giant Schnauzer well. They are hard, strong-willed dogs, and need precise handling, along with a good sense of humor. Definitely not a good fit for everyyone.

You're also right that man-stopping dogs are a serious liability, and more and more counties and states are considering them a deadly weapon if they hurt someone. In some places, if there is a complaint lodged against one, and then later that dog hurts someone, it is considered a pre-meditated crime, and there's jail time. Something to think about carefully before wanting a bigger, badder breed.

Especially as, if you've worked with police dogs, you know that it only takes about 45# of well-trained dog to take a man down. More and more forces are going to Malinois because of that. A smaller dog is a smaller target if a criminal wants to take one out, and the Malinois is sharp as a blade, has less health problems and has all the power needed to take a man down. They definitely make bad pets though. Too much dog for most folks to handle.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I am always amused when people get terribly defensive because they know someone else has nailed them just right.

krebolj, you either HAVE NOT, or DO NOT KNOW HOW to train your GSD. This is stating a simple fact. If you both KNEW how to train dogs, AND were training your GSD, then after 6 months, your dog would not be running away from everything. You would have trained most of the fear and timidness out by now. Also, you would know that a fearful, timid dog is *the most dangerous kind* to have around, especially when you have children, because they are most likely to bite out of being afraid. Go look up "Fear Aggression".

And this comes into the problem of what you are asking for. You are asking for a dog that is ~naturally aggressive~. One that will be territorial and keep people away with sharp teeth because that is what the dog does, without any training, or money expended for training, from you. And you want this because you are afraid of rapists, murderers and thieves.

How would you like to be closely confined with nothing BUT rapists, murderers, and thieves? Because that is what you are asking for. The very first time some clueless kid comes wandering through your gate for some innocent reason, and your dog mauls him or her, your dog will be euthanized and *you will be in jail*. Who is going to protect your kids while your husband is at work from all of those criminals while you are in jail for, at best, reckless endangerment, and at worst, manslaughter? And how are you going to feel about your dog mauling or killing off some kid whose only crime was hoping to sell you some chocolate bars to help fund their school band? What if it is one of YOUR kids this dog goes after?

And that dog is NOT going to protect you from anyone who knows anything about dogs (which you very obviously do NOT). *I* can walk into a yard with a vicious, naturally aggressive dog and have that animal eating from my hand in 10 minutes.....and I haven't even trained dogs for a living before like Otter has.

If you want a dog that will keep humans off of your property, spend the money and buy a TRAINED animal that knows that that is his or her JOB. That animal will be safer to have around yourself and your children anyway. AND such animals can be trained to not injure or maim, but to simply take down and hold.

If what you want is an animal that will send up an alarm any time someone tries to come to the gate, giving you a chance to get to the shotgun, then get a small yapper. Many breeds were bred to be nothing BUT alarms. Or get geese. Or guineas. Heck, the geese can physical deterrents as well; those suckers are MEAN and will bite. They will sure as heck let you know if someone is coming on the property.

But if you value your children, or your freedom to NOT be locked up with a bunch of rapists, murderers, and thieves, then do NOT get a "naturally aggressive" dog. You are just asking for trouble, and YOU do not have either the time, or the knowledge, to train the dog.

Also, stop coming online and getting all defensive and then throwing insults at people who have been doing this most of their lives just because they are not telling you what you want to hear. Otter knows what she is talking about, and she gave you really good advice; it simply wasn't the answer you wanted.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I think people underestimate dogs. They are stronger than most give them credit for. Look at huskies and pitts; not going to get much more than sixty pounds there, but those guys can manage some serious business. Goodness, have you never had a thirty pound beagle half rip your arm off because you were holding a leash and suddenly, a rabbit? 

I had a twenty pound dog who liked to kill, and carry off, Muscovy drakes. That's like if I, an average sized human woman, killed a deer with my teeth and then nonchalantly trotted off with it. A tiny California deer, mind you (lol) but you get the picture.

The answer isn't to go bigger, generally, it's to go smarter. Of course a big dog has his place, but I think they're overused. Most folks have a problem, or think they do, and automatically think they need a monster dog... nah. I've seen moderately sized Labradors who worked quite admirably for human deterrents. 

BRTS are gorgeous dogs and a well trained one is a delight to see. That said, some breeds do not blend well, and terriers really need to be entirely terrier, IMHO. Conflicting instincts tend to make for some handful dogs. 

The sharp terriers.... they are not easy dogs (Understatement). They are not for beginners. 

I am wondering why one needs an aggressive dog + a Pyr on three acres. Put a lock on your gate and get a dog who will bark, or just a gate alarm. :shrug:


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

All I can say is I was in the shower, and I heard my dogs start up and then my doorbell RANG (I thought who in the world made it past my dogs?) and ran downstairs sooo fast.... still wet....
and WAS SO RELIEVED that the little Jehovahs Witness ladies had made it unharmed to the front door (I dont think they were going to be allowed to leave that spot though)-- so relieved that my dogs had the judgement to not maul little old ladies....


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

LOL, reminds me. I have had dogs who would "handle" intruders if needed. It was only ever needed twice, so that was that.

But the best watchdog, who will let me know and not let anyone get to any children in my home without my knowledge, mine or otherwise? The one who will take on a six foot tall man if he doesn't know him and he walks in towards the babies?

Yeah. That'd be the ancient Chihuahua. Same dog is reliable off leash, well trained, not a yapper, glued to my side, and indulgently tolerant with small people. He's hilarious. Such a good dog for "protecting" the kids. But.... you know if that man had been a bad one, you'd just be a greasy spot on the carpet now, right? Ah well. Heart bigger than his whole body, I swear. And you try being anywhere and not hearing a Chihuahua do that funny little rage-yodel. Thank goodness a "Shh" or "Okay" and he silences his noise. Totally cracks me up.

I have lots of little kids in and out (and their mamas and daddies), contractors doing work, and just random visitors. I don't need a dog right now who will ever take things *really* into his own judgement. Just let me know if someone is creeping round, and I can manage from there. 

I like the suggestion for geese. Hey, you get one of those who takes to biting, you have a nice dinner. The end. A dog? Now you have problems.


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

CaliannG- YOU did not read the posts. I have not had the dog 6 months, the breeder/ trainer had him for 6 months. I have had him for going on ONE. Please get facts straight before assuming I am not working with him.


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## krebolj (Feb 23, 2013)

I am wondering why one needs an aggressive dog + a Pyr on three acres. Put a lock on your gate and get a dog who will bark, or just a gate alarm. :shrug:[/QUOTE]

As was stated, because I have a Pyr who DOES NOT BARK AT PEOPLE! My house is way out in the boonies with meth heads and other criminals who are both breaking in when people are gone and when people are home- those home invasions end up with victims hospitalized. I am partially deaf and can barely hear when my Golden barks outside, even with my windows open. My home is in the middle of my property with a locked gate, I have had people ignore the locked gate and no trespassing sign and hop the fence, then come into my fenced yard as well and right up to my door without my Pyr giving them a second look. Like I said, she is great with keeping dogs away, but not people.

I asked about the RBT because I saw the puppies and had never heard of the breed. Being stupid would have been to just go get one.
After people said they would be too much I asked about other breeds because of my dilemma. 

I am annoyed with otter's replies because they are genuinely unhelpful. I stated that my husband works in law enforcement and I stay at home with two small children- do you really think it is an option to go out and buy a $4,000-$6,000 trained protection dog? NO. Also, those dogs have a high prey drive and will hop my yard fence to get after my livestock- NOT WHAT I WANT! Then to imply I am not working with the dog I have- I am! I have tried treats, noises, EVERYTHING to get him to make any kind of noise and he won't. He shuts down and goes to lay down. I don't know what happened to him in his original home (God only knows because he is afraid of everything) but it damaged him and is going to take a very, very long time for him to come out of this shell if he does.

I was simply looking for suggestion on breeds that have protective tendencies and will leave my livestock alone. All of the snarkiness was totally uncalled for. I will admit to not knowing everything about dogs, which is why I asked; but for someone to be snippy right off the bat is unnecessary. I have also dealt with otter's attitude in the cow section when she implied that I would be stupid and doing a disservice to the breed by buying a $400 unregistered calf rather than an $1800 registered calf even though I made it clear we intend to eat all calves produced by said cow. 

Because of my set up and my budget I am often forced to be creative in finding what works for us here; that means that what works for you may not work for me. My situation is not yours and you do not know everything that I need, or everything going on in my house. Therefore you shouldn't "jump down my throat" when I say that what you suggested isn't what I want or need. Never did I say I want the biggest baddest dog. I said I want a protective dog who will growl/ bark/ bite when someone attempts to come into my yard/ house. A standard poodle was suggested and I took that suggestion and am actively looking. A bulldog was suggested and I am looking into that as well, provided that I can find one who does not have a high prey drive and will not be likely to attack my animals. I have not thrown all suggestions out, as you have said. Otter's suggestion of paying for a trained animal does not work for our family and I let her know


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Dude. Relax. I've been here, uhh... well, whatever that date in the top right that I cannot see right now, says. Otter is not snarky. I'm not the first to tell you such. Really.

No one knows anyone else's financial situation.
Nobody is calling you, or has called you, stupid. 

I do think that buying a trained dog and learning to work with him is cheaper than buying what could amount to a loaded pistol and letting it run unsupervised on your property, especially if you might not hear it's warning bark/ be able to tell the different barks apart. BRTs are a great deal of dog and people wanted to make sure you knew you could be doing the equivalent of buying a green horse as a new rider. It's kind of horrifying to contemplate when you've seen how this one goes over and over again.

Honestly, if budget is a concern and you really just need a family dog who will bark loudly and ferociously, I'd just go pick a mutt from the pound over the purebred a limited budget can buy these days. I wouldn't go with a bulldog because you don't have much dog experience and again, terriers. Just some midsized pup who likes the kids and other dogs. Raise him, train him, he'll let you know if something is amiss.

You will note that I did not say you have "thrown all options out". People are genuinely trying to HELP YOU by answering your question. Really. There is no hell like the hell lived in when you wind up with the "wrong" dog for your situation. Ugh. No. Not good.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I have a small dog, a wire haired fox terrier. Let me tell you, Annie is ferocious when it comes to ANYONE coming on "her" turf other than myself and DH. But..when I say "inside voice" she immediately quits barking and sits and watches.

I would say that a dog that barks is quite effective. MOST "bad" people heed the bark. _The folks that really want to break in - they kill the dog if they can't get past it. Poison, shooting, knife, ground glass in ground beef, whatever it takes and however long it takes, the dog will die if someone REALLY wants in._

All the others take a different route as they don't want to be noticed..they will move on to a place that has no barking dog.

A mutt from the pound can be every bit as protective as the largest Mastiff in the world. I once had a Rottie that would "woof" a bit if someone came up, but my little rat terrier, Lucy was the one that people feared. She didn't back down from anyone until I told her to be quiet and sit.

I definitely do not think a Giant Schnauzer would work for most people. I've had terriers for years and they are not for the faint of heart - lol -
My wire hair fox terrier is a breeze compared to the miniature schnauzer I had as far as training and let me tell you, Annie has to be convinced that it is her idea to do X. I have to make it a game and reward her for not doing the wrong thing. Terriers are "different" that is for sure, but once they have something, they have it. But it does take a whole lot of patience and time.

_I want something that will bark/growl/ bite if someone comes through the gate or over the fence without me there to let them in but won't kill my sheep either._

_I have two small, timid children so just gave up after that. _

You say you want a dog that bites, I am telling you this as a former Paralegal..
buy lots and lots of insurance. If that dog bites someone, you will be sued eventually. And if the dog has a history of biting, the dog may be destroyed. It almost sounds like you want a dog that has a _human prey drive _that is instinctive, but will ignore the sheep. 

Is that really a good idea with small children on the premises? Would not a dog that barks and sounds like he/she would eat someone up be better? Just thinking of the possibilities here.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Jen, I remember when you got that little guy! I'm glad he's still around. People really do underestimate how strong dogs are. My beagle once jumped through a window, RinTinTin style, except it wasn't sugar glass. Little snot hit the ground running, it didn't even phase him. Bigger dogs - I once managed to grab my friend's coonhound's collar as he shot past me on the way to my cat. I was nearly an hour wrestling with that dog, as the cat was up a low tree and if I let go, he'd have had her, and I wasn't strong enough to get him away when God Himself told that coonhound just what to do about a furry thing up a tree.
I felt it for _days_ - Buddy never noticed. If a dog half his size wanted to take me down, it could do so, and then do it again 5 or 6 more times without getting tired.

CAjerseychick, Jen, exactly - there are just to many reasons for someone to come up to my door in innocence. And while I might feel unsafe home with small children - children grow, and dogs, hopefully, live for a decade at least. It might seem like a _great_ idea to have a dog that won't let anyone near my 7 yo, but that dog will still be quite perky now that she's 13 and all her friends are running tame in and out of my house and moms and dads dropping by.
And it might be tempting to want the dog to still be doing that job when she's 16 and dating - and the dog that wouldn't let anyone near her at 7 will still be able, although slower - but realistically speaking I'd be better off letting her dad build that tower.

So, I'd always rather spend the first year a dog lives with me training it to do what I want, which is to bark fiercely at certain triggers, like people acting wrongly (which takes LOTS of socialization) or approaching my house from the rear or sides, than to spend a decade or more wrestling some huge beastie into the back room while I yell "Hold on!! I have to put the dog up!!" at my front door.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm wondering when I said to _buy_ a trained dog?
What I said is that no matter what you get, it will need to be mature, and trained. No puppy of any breed will work, and no untrained dog will do what you want without being a liability. 

And someone else said that instead of buying a puppy - and you were quoting prices on those - you'd be better off buying a trained dog, or paying a trainer.

You also seem to suggest that I am saying you should protection train your GSD - what on earth for? Any one who is going to see a GSD barking at it (Speak - the trick that every child trains their dog, just with a different cue) and decides to challenge it is just going to kill your dog anyway.
And if you can't teach even a shy dog Speak, it's no more than fact that something like a Giant Schnauzer is way to much dog to handle. I wouldn't want to put a Giant Schnauzer amount of work into a dog, and I've done this for a living.

And seriously - you're holding the cow thing against me? 
First, like you just did, you confused me with someone else. All I ever said about breed is that you may as well not bother with a purebred because without papers you're getting stockyard prices for heifers, and no one eats heifers.
The suggestion to register was only from my own experience - and I promise, I am more poor then you - that you lose money on unregistered stock.

I found something out the hard way, and hoped you could learn from my mistake without having to make it for yourself.
Sorry if that makes me a bad guy or out to get you.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

There are plenty of "good" dogs that bite on Craigslist. Also ask your local animal shelter, people call all the time wanting to get rid of their dog that bit a stranger. The shelter can't adopt them out so are unable to take them but could give them your number.


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