# Thoughts on a small solar setup for Barn



## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Greetings - I just recently found this great site and look forward to loads of great reading and insight.

We have a 5 acre ranch in the Sierra Foothills in Nor Cal. I have renovated an old storage shed into a chiken coop and am finishing the restoration of an old horse stall/tack shed into a pig pen and store room. These two small buildings are away from the house and do not have power.

My thought is to install a descent sized 12v battery, some 12v dc lights, and charge the battery via a used 80w solar panel.

Does anyone have any ideas on my plan, or ideas to build a better system (without great expense!). 

Besides a few lights, I am hoping to have lights on a timer in the chicken coop to allow for year-round laying and enough power to have a heat lamp in the pig pen stall to add some heat on our colder winter nights.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Nice idea. I'm working on something similiar with a smaller, 45W panel. The heat lamp may be a problem depending upon the wattage. High current, continuous operation devices typically don't play well with PV systems unless the battery bank is oversized (big $$$).


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I have a few strings of 2 watt led christmas lights set up in my barn, they work great. There isn't any heat involved, but since I store quite a bit of hay through the winter I feel better this way. I just used an 18 watt panel hooked up to a deep cycle battery and a 200 watt inverter. In the summer the same battery charges my solar powered electronet fence.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

You will need a charge controller. For the chicken coop I'd look at using a solar lighting controller like (for example only) with a bypass switch for when you need the light:

http://store.altenergystore.com/Cha...Sunlight-10-12-10A-12V-Light-Controller/p795/

Can't really run any calculations without knowing what lights you want to run, how long you want them on and a little more accuate on the location. Solar availability varies in NorCal

Forget the heat lamp or you will have to drasticly increase the size.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Thanks for the insght. I kinda thought that the heat lamp was a stretch.

My plan would be to have 6 to 8 12v dc lights between the three spaces (coup, store room, pig pen shelter). Ideally one of the lights in the coup would have a timer so we could extend their laying through the winter.

My thought would be to have a deep cycle 12 volt AGM battery (sealed, and no ventilation needed). While there is some tree cover I could mount a solar panel to the pig pen shelter that would get great afternoon sun year round.

I do have local sources to acquire the needed supplies, but I will price compare online.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Don;t plan on trough or bucket heaters either. During the worst of our cold, we have to run a generator to keep water open, but I doubt it gets that cold where you are. 
As far as a heat lamp though...my husband rigged a propane hover heater so we could brood chicks. It worked beautifully.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Thought I would offer a quick update.

I purchased the following products:
A solar package at www.pacificrenewablegroup.com that sells a package of a used 80w panel, charge controler, wiring, and mounting brackets for about $350.

A 12v timer at www.super-feed.com for the chicken coop for about $75 incl shipping. 

Three dual-light 12v dc light fixtures from a local Rv dealership (about $50) I will likely replace the bulbs with LED lights, but that's a little down the road.

2 12v fans for the pig pen (about $30)

Misc wiring, junction boxes, switches from a local Electrical supply ($20)

1 deep cycle marine battery 105ah from a local automotive store ($75)

So, I'm up to $600, and should have everything installed by next week - some of the materials are due in this week. Once installed, everything should run for years, so I am pretty happy with the cost of this system. A couple of the 'pros' were wanting me to spend over $1000 just on the solar panel and charge controler - so I'm way ahead of the game.

I'll let you know how everything turns out!


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

*"A solar package at www.pacificrenewablegroup.com that sells a package of a used 80w panel, charge controler, wiring, and mounting brackets for about $350"*

I'd be a bit leary of this myself. Was the panel used for experimentation with a solar concentrator? (I couldn't get the link to work)

*"A 12v timer at www.super-feed.com for the chicken coop for about $75 incl shipping."*

This is not a 12 V.D.C. timer. It's a standard 120 V.A.C. timer that can be bought for under $10 at a lot of places. It controls a "wall wort" that puts out 12 V.D.C. to operate the feeder. You would need to use an inverter to make the timer work and it wouldn't be accurate.

Maybe those "Pros" could see through all of these issues. Good luck!


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
There are some packaged systems intended for RVs that would work, and would might offer a good price (or not?) -- here are a couple that Costco offers:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Produc...=8&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11298029&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11298162&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1

If the links don't work, just go to www.costco.com and search for "solar" -- I'm sure other places carry similar setups.

I bought one of the three panel setups a couple years ago and it is still working fine.

Gary


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Sorry for the bad link - it should be www.pacificrenewablesgroup.com (I missed the plural)

12vman, I hope you are wrong. I emailed them detailing my situation of using 12v dc in a remote location and was told this timer would work. It arrives Tuesday - and I hope I am not returning it Wednesday. I did email them again with your comments about their timer, and asked about their return policy.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Most folks can't fathom the situation. They are clueless..

If you need additional help, contact me.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

If those "RV lights" are typical incandesents they will chew up your battery fast. Get the LED's now and that will greatly help your batt life.
Good 12vdc timers are available

If you want a "heat lamp" expect to pay that $1000 a couple times over.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Hay..
I looked at that panel kit. Looks like an alright deal! _They_ guarantee the panel for 30 days but the panel could actually last another 30 years! Nice charge controller too!

It seems like a safe investment, IMO.. Great learning tool. 2 would be really nice!

Keep us updated.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Good News! 

The timer set up and operates as described on line. It will operate at 6v to 24v either AC or DC. The timer has 10 minute intervals which allows great flexiblity.

The diagram for installation did not work for my needs, but following my email to them they emailed me back quickly with the correct setup for my situation - and within a few minutes of tinkering it was working like a charm!.

If all goes as planned, the lights will go on at 4:50AM, and we'll be eating omletes all winter!!

I'll update more once I have the solar panel installed - hopefully by the end of the weekend.


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## Calvin Wiles (May 14, 2008)

I have a remote Camping Trailer that is completely furnished off grid with a Refrig. I ordered a timer for the AC Refrig. The timer is computerized for up to 20 off and on cycles. My cheap modified sine wave inverter would cause it to lose the memory. I had to order a thermostat to get it to work like I wanted. A manual timer would work ok though.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

So I ran the line, buried in conduit to a pole 75 ft from the coop/pig pen, built the support brackets to connect the panel to the post, went to attach the panel to the brackets - and it dropped! and and the front Shattered!!! Arrgh!!!!!

Fortunately, Pacific Renewables is local. I called them, and will pick up another panel tomorrow. I believe they'll discount the second panel, which is nice since it was completely my fault.

Everything else has come along well. Everything is set up and running except for the pannel.

I have a 12v light fixture and two 12v fans in the pig pen, a 12v light fixture in the storage room, and the 12v light fixture to the chicken coop which is operating in the timer previously mentioned. 

Another finishing touch I'll do tomorrow - recommended by the folks at Pacific Renewables - is add an in-line 15a fuse in the positive line from the battery to the junction box leading to the fixtures. This I picked up at the local auto parts store for a few bucks, and should protect my fixtures should the battery ever do anything crazy. 

Hopefully I'll post some photos next week.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

WOW.. Sorry about the broken panel. I woulda cried myself. 

_So I ran the line, buried in conduit to a pole 75 ft from the coop/pig pen.._

What gauge of wire did you run? That's a long distance to deliver 12 V.D.C. either to/from a battery or from the panel to your charge controller.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

OK...How do I upload photos from my computer? The 'Insert Image' option wants me to link a URL. Once I've conquered this little hurdle, I'll upload some photos of my project.

Thanks for the help.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

DenMacII said:


> OK...How do I upload photos from my computer? The 'Insert Image' option wants me to link a URL. Once I've conquered this little hurdle, I'll upload some photos of my project.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Use an image hosting place like Photobutcket.com.

There's a sticky in the computer forum on it


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Thanks WY White Wolf!

So here are a few shots of my little project:

First here's the panel looking off towards the coop/pigpen:










This is a shot of the storage room where you can see the charge controller (upper left w/ green light), battery (lower left), timer to chicken coop (upper center), junction box for lines from battery to fixtures (center), switches for the pig pen fans and light (upper right)










Here you can see the light and one fan in the pig pen - a second fan is just out of the photo (you can also see the pass through window in the lower left which will allow feeding straight from the storage room if needed):










And last but not least, the light in the chicken coop: 










Any other thoughts on improving/modifying this set up would be appreciated. I'm thinking about adding a little 12v heater to go with the chicken lights - there are some very low wattage ones I've seen recently that shouldn't draw down the battery too much and at least take the edge off in the coop.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Thats an awful lot of shade on your PV panel...........


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Well...I took the picture about 8:30AM this morning. By 11:00AM there's nothing but pure sun on the panel until sunset - that's why I set it where I did.

12vman - I ran a 10 gauge exterior wire from the panel to the charge controler in conduit from the panel to inside the pen. In fact, I bought a 100' roll thinking I would have 20' left over. By the time I made all the turns and corners, I might have 7' left - but it's a clean run with no splices or junctions.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

You will have a large loss in that small of a wire run.
You could run your system without a charge controller using that small of wire.
You will never get your batt fully charged and its life will be short.

Did you check a wire loss chart . ?? 


Not all of the "pro's" are bad guys, most know what their talking about . . . . .. so therefore there was a reason for that 'bigger' price.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Yep.. That shoulda been #3 gauge wire, according to the chart. (To keep the losses under 5%)

The chart represents a "One Way" run so you should either double your amps or your distance. In your case, it's around 7 amps @ 12 volts @ 150 feet = 3 gauge wire. (Always round up to the nearest current rating or length)


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Ouch! 

I had not checked a wire loss chart, but was relying on the advice of someone I trusted. Where was my 'trust but verify' mindset!!! 

Somewhere in my conversations a 6 guage wire was mentioned, but I was assured that a 10 guage would work for my situation. Looks like I should have gone with the 6 though. Maybe it was because I told him I was closer to 75 feet not the 92 feet it ended up being. That's a 23% increase in length - and he probably thought my loads weren't going to drain the battery. Except for the 4 hours of coop light each morning, there might be an additional 15 minutes of the lights being on this time of year.

I could repair the 1st panel (which I plan to do), and set it next to the first panel. I'm not sure if that would help my situation, or make it worse. The second panel is the same Solec 80w panel, it just won't be as efficient following the repair.

As comedian Ron White says: "When life hands you lemons...find the guy with a bottle of vodka and start mixing drinks."

Any suggestions?


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

well, i was going to applaude you for your obvious thoughtful approach and hard work. i still do...just follow through and do it right when you can afford it. i am sure you can find a use for the 10 guage wire someplace else eventually. just add another big job to the list...re-working the line. 

now, where is that vodka guy...


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

It'll still work with the wiring that you have installed but you are very limited. The key is not to use more energy than you can collect at the battery to assure the battery gets back to full charge.

With a quick overview and rounding things makes you at about 20% efficient. Normally you could collect around 26 aHr. Now you're at around 5 to the charge controller. Include the 20% normal losses within the battery and your total "safe" usage in a 24 hr. period is around 4 aHr. (During sunny conditions.. Cloudy days will be far less)

Exactly what kind of lights do you have? Do they have standard type bulbs in them? I have a few of the same type of fans that are in your pics. Those alone draw around 2-3 amps on the high setting! I wouldn't use them unless I really needed to.

Give us a good break down on every load that you have connected and the exact amount of usage time that you expect. You mention the lighting but what about everything else?

I too applaud you in your effort. Not too many folks would even mess around with this. It's a live and learn thing and there are many around that will help you go in the right direction. Believe me, I screwed up in the past myself. Made some smoke a few times..


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm about to head out of town camping for the weekend, but I wanted to sneak this post in...

The light fixtures are standard 12v dc RV/TT fixtures that came with 2-8w incandescent bulbs. When I get back I will be replacing them with LED's which should keep those loads very nominal.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

My barn doesn't have electricity, either, so I bought a 45 watt solar battery charger from Harbor Freight Tools for $199.95. It comes with a controller and a couple of 5w CFL lights. I added a large capacity 12v battery for $78 and some wiring and switches, plus a 1200w inverter for $99.

I operate a strong, battery-powered electric fence charger 24/7 from this system and use lights each night while we lock up the chickens. I have 2 65w 12v tractor work flood lights that light up the barnyard. Three 5w CFL's in the barn and henhouse make enough light to move around in, and a 3w 36 LED flood light in the henhouse makes good light.

The only problems I've had over 2 years is corrosion on the connections, I have to clean them frequently, plus the CFL's don't want to light when it's much below freezing.

As I get money, I'll replace the CFL's with LED's. More light for less wattage and light in cold weather, but the bulbs are costly.

For a while I used 2 batteries in parallel, but I didn't drain the batteries enough. The shallow discharge killed one of the batteries. Now I use just one battery and it really stays in better shape. I keep another battery charged and ready in case of lightning or other failure.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

A little correction here.
A "shallow discharge" is the best thing you can do to a 'battery'.
A "shallow discharge" wasn't what killed your batt.

And I can't even imagine what kind of batt you would get for $78 . . . . . . . . .if its a 'car' batt that is very wrong for what your doing. . . . its life will be short.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> A little correction here.
> A "shallow discharge" is the best thing you can do to a 'battery'.
> A "shallow discharge" wasn't what killed your batt.
> 
> And I can't even imagine what kind of batt you would get for $78 . . . . . . . . .if its a 'car' batt that is very wrong for what your doing. . . . its life will be short.


$78

Lay money it was a marine deep cycle form chinamart. Why people keep trying to use them with solar I will never understand.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Pretty snotty group here.

I thought I'd come here to learn something, but I doubt I could learn much from one who "can't even imagine" and one who "will never understand".

Hang in there, kids. With age will come understanding.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## spiffydave (Mar 19, 2008)

Here is the description of the the Pacific Renewables Group site:


> 80 Watt Solar RV Marine and Cabin Kit
> For Charging 12 Volt Batteries
> Solar PV Panel Kit-80 Watt/-4.68 Amps includes brand new high quality "Morningstar" charge controller and a rugged multi-strand copper wire.
> 
> ...


So I've been wanting to get a simple solar solution for emergency back-up power. My requirements for the system are:

- charging NIMH aa, aaa batteries (for use in flashlights, water purifier, etc.)

- charging a 12 volt battery to use for occasional high-wattage appliance use (Nutrimill grinder, tool battery charging, etc.

I'm not trying to go "off the grid" or to run appliances like a fridge or freezer with this system. It's strictly having something that will power some critical short use appliances and small batteries.

Would this Pacific Renewables Group system (either the 80 or 160 watt) be a good option for this kind of use?

If not, could you point me to something that would work better.

Thanks much!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

. . "Reconditioned" solar panels . . . . .Wow . . . thats a new one.

What feel good phrase will they use next . . . . 

snotty..........
Take it how ever you wish 
There are a few of us here that have been around this stuff for awhile . . . . . . . . . .and you are getting the benefit of a lot of 'been there done that' experience.
But by all means if you choose to insist on chinafart products and budget . . . then have at it . . . but later on don't say that you haven't heard\read about the stuff that works and the stuff that doesn't . . .

. . 'kids' . . .haha don't I wish.

The Solec SQ 80 is\was a good panel.


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## spiffydave (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey Jim, I don't want to interrupt an argument, but can you comment briefly on the suitability of this package?

Thanks much.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

spiffydave..
I would suggest getting 2 of the panels in the package. (160 watts) Many times folks go with a small system and they get very disappointed because it won't do anywhere near as anticipated. You _need_ to seriously study your loads and the time you want to operate them. I'm a bit worried about the nutmill grinder and the water purifier. I believe the rest of the things would be ok..


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

lol. . . . theres no argument going on as far as I'm concerned.

I have never installed a system small enough to use that small of a controller. But Morningstar has a good name and reputation so the SS-10-12 unit should be good. Retail is -$ 57.
There's little expansion room there . . .with its small amp rating.

Those old Solec PV panels were\are good units. So if they are not too beat up and were not subjected to reflectors (more than one sun) then your getting a decent panel for $ 3.66 a watt. . . . .not bad.
That "extended" warranty is gravy in the seller's pocket . .not worth it.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

So, I've had this system running for a couple of weeks now and all has been going pretty well. The chickens even starting laying again!!! The 4:30AM rise and shine is doing the trick!!!

A couple of things I realized regarding the battery I purchased - as recently mentioned - is the battery is a deep cycle marine battery from an auto parts store; and I literally walked out of the store and put it into use without fully charging it.

Given my faux paux of running 10 gauge wire from the panel to the charge controller, I am guessing that I do need to pay the bucks for a better battery set up. Should I go with two 6v golf cart batteries (in series)? and buy a battery charger so that when the batteries are installed to the system it is at a full charge? We have a travel trailer that I am also wanting to swap out the battery set up with 6v's and I can get better discounts if I buy 4 or 6.

Will I be OK to install the 2nd (repaired) 80w panel? or would that create too much heat in the 10 gauge wire?

What about a digital volt meter? The charge controller has a low voltage red light that should come on, but will that give enough notice?

I did order LED lights to replace the 8w incandescent bulbs. This should considerably reduce the load on this system (besides the lights, there is only the fans which are seasonal to the summer and the timer to the chicken coop which draws very little power) - but I'm thinking about longer term winter conditions where there will be low or no sunlight for several days. I assume that 2 - 6v 200ah batteries (totalling 400ah) will last much longer than the 12v 105ah battery I have now. At a full charge it should hold it's own much longer...right?

Thanks as always for your thoughts.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

When connecting 2 batteries in series, the voltage doubles but the Ahr. rating remains the same as one. (200 aHr.)

I'd be a bit concerned if the system could bring that much battery to full charge with the current wiring from the panel(s). Your charge potential is very limited because of the wiring. As long as you stay within the parameters of usage that I stated earlier, you might be OK.

Adding another panel will help but the losses remain the same. I don't believe any fires will start but adding another panel is basically fruitless. I believe I'd focus on replacing the wiring first.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Adding another panel to that small wire will give you a good snow melter between the panels and the 'shed' . . . lol

OK that means that those dinky wires are gonna get warm.

The golf car batteries are a very good starter . . .

But only if you can charge them up >enough<

Your priority ought to be to change out the small wire run.

oh ya . . If you rely on that 'red light' on the what ever your gonna discharge your batts too often and kill the batt.
By all means get a good meter.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Greetings All,

I thought I would bump up this thread with an annual update.

This past year the system has worked very well. I did add a volt meter to monitor the battery - and did have to charge the battery about every four months, especially after bad weather. I know this was due in part to the poor battery selection, and the guage of wire from the panel to the battery. The timer worked perfectly controlling the lights in the chicken coop - we did move the chickens this summer closer to the house, but that we due to a coyote problem. 

The light fixtures I chose did not have effective LED bulb options - so I should have looked for LED needs first - then chose the fixture to meet that need. The wiring to the two 12v fans in the pig pen needed to be in conduit - as the resident rodents chewed right through them.

In all I am very satisfied with how this system has worked - and I appreciate all the input shared in this thread. All your knowledge helped with how this system was built AND how the next project will be much better.


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