# Gretta's blood test



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Vet just called. Positive. that is 3 positive tests now and no negatives. I feel like all there is is bad news. Vet is on board to keep her happy and comfortable for as long as possible. I can't even think even think about the others at this point. :Bawling::Bawling:And Thaiblue..God life just really sucks
:Bawling::Bawling::Bawling: Gretta has Johnes and all the others most likely have it too. I don't know what to do. How could this happen to me....it's so unfair.


----------



## JBarGFarmKeeper (Nov 1, 2011)

God! Please, help my friend. She is hurting and has such a compassionate heart. Please, help her.


----------



## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

I wish i had magickal words that could make it better...bu sadly, I don't....but please know my soul aches for you. I can't truly even begin to imagine what you are fedling...for Gretta ....the fear you have over the others goats too....No.this is very far from fair....much love sent your way...stay strong


Susie, mo ozarks


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Last night I dreamed that I picked up Flossie and she was skin and bones. It was a horrble nightmare. I don't know how to live with this


----------



## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Just take it day by day sweetie. It will be okay and she will tell you when its time, and when that day come we all will be here for you. ((((HUGE HUGS)))).


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Believe me I know how you feel. Right now, when you are trying to deal with all those unknowns, it seems impossible to feel good again. And you think that one more thing will just be one more thing too much.
All I can say is that I found joy again on the other side of the misery. And I know you will too- 
In the meantime, I'm sending hugs to comfort as hard as I can. Your goats are lucky to have you to deal so they can be their lovable selves for you. ((((hug))))- that's a 4 hugger- right at the peak of hugginess..........


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Min, I just don't know what to say or do that could help you & my heart is breaking with yours. This isn't fair & it sucks more than big time! Your goats are so lucky they have you & vice a versa. We never know when our time comes for us, family, friends or our pets & sometimes it seems like it's just never long enough, we just have to be glad for each & everyday. Sending Hugs your way & if I can do anything at all to help please don't hesitate to PM me or call.


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

I'm so sorry Minelson.


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

(((((hugs)))) I am so sorry :Bawling:. I would say right now just keep her quality of life up, same with all the others. If they get to a point where they need to go they will let you know. But right now if the others are happy and healthy let them be. With Gretta I would just keep her happy and comfortable and love on her. 

I had to face this back in January. Well it was my dog and it wasn't Johnes but I had the same thing facing me decision wise. He let me know in his own wise doggy way that it was his time. He was tired and ready to go home, I believe when Gretta is fully ready she will let you know. Until then if it was me I would just keep loving on her and keeping her as comfy as possible.

I am crying over here....oh my heart breaks for you :bawling: . 

Justine


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

:Bawling: Oh Min, I am so sorry!

Do not worry about the others right now. If they have it, they have it; if they don't, they don't, and nothing that you can do now will change it, or make it worse or better. 

DH and I were once called to the animal shelter... we have no idea why we needed to stop there that day, but we ended up coming home with a 12 year old Australian Shepherd. We called her "Karma", because, due to her age, she was not "adoptable, and we came in there the day before her time was going to be up and she would be euthanized. Smart, happy, and bouncy, although sometimes stiff and sore if she played too much, she lived for 2 years before it was necessary to let her go Home.

It hurts...yes it does, very much. But, when I think on times like that (Karma was not the only one that I didn't have enough time with), I think that sometimes, a creature coming into our lives is not for us, although we may love, learn, and grow from it, but for them. Yes, it hurt me, and Karma's life probably wasn't "fair" to her either, but perhaps I was meant to balance out the unfairness in *her* life, even though it was hurtful to me.

I like to think that that is what I do, help balance out how unfair life is to so many, and give them a soft spot to land when things are tough.

:grouphug: I am so sorry this is happening to you Min. So sorry for Gretta too. It is not your fault, as she likely caught it before you ever got her. But maybe she came into your life because she deserves to have someone care for her, love her, and comfort her even though she is sick? Most people would have culled her at first sign; who else but you will give her a loving, comforting home until she is ready to go?


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

CaliannG said:


> It hurts...yes it does, very much. But, when I think on times like that (Karma was not the only one that I didn't have enough time with), I think that sometimes, a creature coming into our lives is not for us, although we may love, learn, and grow from it, but for them. Yes, it hurt me, and Karma's life probably wasn't "fair" to her either, but perhaps I was meant to balance out the unfairness in *her* life, even though it was hurtful to me.
> 
> I like to think that that is what I do, help balance out how unfair life is to so many, and give them a soft spot to land when things are tough.


This is a beautiful way to think of it. It's how I think of Brandy, our old mare. We only had her for a few months, but they were good, happy months for her and she passed surrounded by our love and with our help.

The other thing I tell myself, especially now when I look at my precious old cat (the whole family jokes that she is my first child, and sometimes that she is my favorite child) She's not dead yet.
I might not have tomorrow, but I have _right now_.
She is here,_ right now._
I will not borrow trouble from tomorrow. I will enjoy right now. And when the moment comes, I will deal with it then, and she will go the same way she spent her life, surrounded by my love, and hopefully in my arms, and with my voice in her ear.

And I will do that for her because I love her. After that, then I will fall apart. Before that, I will be too busy with right now.


----------



## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

Oh I'm so sorry  Know we're thinking about you (and yours), gretta,flossie and frankie!


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Michelle ((( Hugs))) 
Sorry to read about the third test being positive. I know your very concerned about the babies you got this past spring as to whether they might have been exposed or not. Have you ever thought about just dry lotting them away from the others? I have seen in some of your pictures your little fenced in area beside the red barn. By dry lotting them you would need to have put down 3 or 4 inches of mulch and or sand. You can buy mulch or sand by the dump truck load and spread it out over the fenced in area and feed them only hay and a little grain. If you wanted to let them out and take them for walks away from the area&#8217;s that Gretta has been in I don&#8217;t see why that would not work in lesssing their exposure. Just trying to brain storm ideas for the babies. You ready do need to think in terms that they haven&#8217;t been exposed and aim in that direction in keeping them from being exposed. Hang in there, I know that&#8217;s easier said than done, but we are here for you. Gretta came into your life for a reason and a purpose and you have done great by her and you will be rewarded for your love of her and the others: (((((Hugs))))) from Sandy


----------



## Dreamgoat Annie (Nov 28, 2011)

Ah, geez, I am so very, very sorry. I don't know what else to say. My heart hurts for you.


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

JBarGFarmKeeper said:


> God! Please, help my friend. She is hurting and has such a compassionate heart. Please, help her.


Lord in heaven please hear our prayers and place your loving hands around Michelle and give her strength.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

The problem is that Gretta, Frankie and Flossie have been EVERYWHERE on the property. The babies (7 months old now) are used to having full run of the property. Penning them up would make them miserable. And they were with the adult goats when they were within the 3 month old time period when goats most commonly get the disease. So the odds are that they have been exposed and have it. So do I assume that and let them live out their lives as happy as possible or do I pen them up just in case of a miracle that they don't have it and it would save their lives. I don't want to be irresponsible, but I also don't want to take away the freedom and happiness that they have now either. It's a tough spot to be in. Quality of life or quantity of life? Maybe I should pen them up until Gretta dies? ugh. But then there are still goat berries everywhere. And to make it worse...becasue of the mild winter and then the drought, there are more berries than ever. There are even berries in my truck. In every out building, all through the grove...everywhere. It would be impossible to clean it up. I just don't know what would be best. And I surely don't want to put Gretta in a cage to live out her remaining life. It's almost certain that Frankie and Flossie have it becaue they can get it while inside before birth...birth causes stress which causes the disease to shed and they were dam raised. and never a part from one another. The only thing I can think of is to test the babies and if it's negative get them off the property. But who would take them? And the negative test is so unreliable. I'm not sticking my head in the sand but I really think if I asked them what they would want they would want the freedom of not being penned up. Pony and Gracie are such great buddies...they love to run together all over the place. 
I'm rambling..sorry. just trying to do the right thing. Deep down I feel it's too late.


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm sorry for the test outcome Minelson. I was hoping for a different result for you all. I really have no words to help you out. We put our tiny 20 year old "best friend" (house dog) down a year ago October. It still hurts, but there was also a relief of sorts. We knew she was not living the life she wanted to live and there was no possible way that she felt good. 

I guess if it were me, I'd probably test to see if the kids have it. No sense driving yourself crazy with what ifs. But, depending on what you want to do in the way of animals on your place, I'm not sure that positives mean immediately putting them down. I sure don't think I'd take them to anyone else's place, their joy is in being with you.

If the youngsters test positive, I think I would try a couple of the diets that were given to you for Gretta. I can't think if it was Cliff or CannonFarm or who, but the diets may work on young stock that don't have totally compromised immune systems. A diet may keep those babies from exhibiting symptoms for many many years. Just a thought.

In the end, no matter how we hate it, we have to make decisions for our lovies. It's a responsibility that is heavy, but we humans almost always make the right decisions about it. I agree totally that Gretta will tell ya, and in your heart you will know.

Go hug her Min..you know all of us are always gonna be here for ya.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I think it will be easier on me to just assume all are positive. And try to bend my brain around that and go from there. I still just cannot believe that I am dealing with one of the worst diseases for ruminents. I went through the CL disease too and luckily came out unscathed. What a relief. Then this!? I have never had any bad problems with bloat or polio, listerosis, UC, none of that...just the big gun. the worst of the worst hits my precious little pet herd. I can not bring any ruminents on the property now. And also have to make sure that none of the fields we spread manure on are ever used for cattle grazing...oh..sorry neighbor, we contaminated your cornfield with Johnes. Don't bother putting up a fence and having your cattle eat the corn stalks for a couple of years. Not that I think that will happen but it could. Now what do I do with all the manure??? It's such a domino effect. We are contaminated and it feels like I have a big *"J"* stamped on my forehead.


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

(((Minelson))) you are in my prayers. I know how hard this is for you. After facing what I did with the alpacas last year, I would 100% say give the quality of life. We never know when our/their time is up. Enjoy them, do your best to keep them healthy and live for today....prepare for tomorrow but live for today. Gretta is so lucky to have you and you are so blessed to have Gretta


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

And I know it's not my fault but I feel just horrible that I brought these precious babies here in the Spring. :Bawling:It's like it was my own selfishness because I wanted Tinker so bad. And Pony turned out to be just the greatest, most loving goat too. And I brought them here to the contamination. :Bawling::Bawling: And now they are contaminated because of me :Bawling:


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Michelle they could possibly not be contaminated with this!!!! Just because yes they have been housed with a positive herd mate that doesn't make them 100% contaminated nor ever exposed enough at this time to exbit signs ever, there's that chance they are fine at this point and time..


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I think Momagoat61 is right..they may be "exposed" but not necessarily "contaminated". 

I found this and it was an awesome, short read. THIS is what I would do with the herd I think.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Minelson said:


> And I know it's not my fault but I feel just horrible that I brought these precious babies here in the Spring. :Bawling:It's like it was my own selfishness because I wanted Tinker so bad. And Pony turned out to be just the greatest, most loving goat too. And I brought them here to the contamination. :Bawling::Bawling: And now they are contaminated because of me :Bawling:


*Stop that this minute!!*

I mean it. You stop that right now.

You did not do this on purpose. Those goats would have been sold somewhere and they are lucky that it was to you. Lucky. Do you hear me?

There is risk everywhere. They are lucky to be with someone so kind and caring as you. They are happy goats and if there is any barn anywhere where they could be right next to a positive goat and have a chance on not being infected, I would bet on yours. And if they are infected? 
If there is anyone on earth who will do everything to make sure they stay happy and comfortable, it is you.

So I don't want to hear any more of that! You get such thoughts out of your head this instant. They are not only unproductive but create only negative energy so no more!

:grouphug:
Deep breaths sweetheart. You *will* get through this. Gretta has been a spoiled, loved, happy goat for years, and she wouldn't have had that without you.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> I think Momagoat61 is right..they may be "exposed" but not necessarily "contaminated".
> 
> I found this and it was an awesome, short read. THIS is what I would do with the herd I think.


I have read that article many times and I have a problem becasue it seems so foreign and about cows with diareah. Enemas and Fenggreek seed? What the heck is that. and fasting for weeks?? Really? Gretta is on Pred and starving. I can't fast her. She is too anemic. I really really appreciate the info and like I said I have read it several times but I just can't fit it in. If I were in production and they were not pets pets maybe I could. IDK. Don't get me wrong....your input has been extraordinaraly helpful and I SOOOO appreciate that. Any way to bend the treatment for a pet goat??


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Otter said:


> *Stop that this minute!!*
> 
> I mean it. You stop that right now.
> 
> ...


ok...:Bawling:


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Ditto what Otter said! You have given so much to those guys! You are an AMAZING goat mom and like Otter said you did NOT do this on purpose. Imagine what kind of life Gretta could have had on someone else's place who didn't care as much? That goes for Flossie, Frankie, Pony and Tinker as well. They are LUCKY to have such an amazing goat mom who loves them enough to fight so hard for them. Don't ever think anything less of yourself okay? (((hugs))) :grouphug: We will all be here for you no matter what happens. And not matter what happens with your herd YOU did amazing and YOU are a great goat momma.

Justine


----------



## BoerMomma (Oct 16, 2012)

I am so sorry  {{{hugs to you}}}


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

If nothing else you know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I wonder how many people get _one test, find its positive & cull; either sale barn or bullet.
Gretta knows she's loved, knows you arent going to give up on her.:kiss:_


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

The following is what I found for treating the ground.

Manure contamination of feed can occur when the same equipment is used to move both feed and manure - this practice should be avoided. Also, manure contamination of water, particularly ponds, wallows or streams that animals can drink from, must be avoided to limit spread of the infection.Fence off those muddy manure areas before the newborns hit the ground.

If possible, contaminated pastures should be tilled and re-seeded. When possible, heavily contaminated land should be kept free of young animals for at least 4 months while the majority of MAP die off. Recent studies have shown that a small population of MAP may still remain up to a year later &#8211; therefore do not put young animals on fields recently treated with manure from or grazed by infected animals, and do not feed the next crop to young animals. See Biology of MAP for more detail on the organism in the environment.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Goat Servant said:


> If nothing else you know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I wonder how many people get _one test, find its positive & cull; either sale barn or bullet.
> Gretta knows she's loved, knows you arent going to give up on her.:kiss:_


_

How could I possibly give up on Gretta...she birthed those babies right into my hands! It was THE MOST best experience of my life. I had never been with any animal during birth. I have never birthed. the only birth I know is Flossie and Frankie. And it changed my life.. I'm sure most of you know that shortly after that heavenly experience my brother had an anyerism and I had to leave. come back. leave. come back. until we took Tim off of life support and let him die. Gretta, Frankie and Flossie were my saving grace and I would have never NEVER gotten through that without them. At the funeral all I did was show pictures of my new baby goats. They kept me going.. Tim would have loved that. They have a special place in my heart because of that._


----------



## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

So sorry for you. I would be an anxious wreck and popping meds like crazy or drinking myself silly. Your four leggeds are your family as are mine (even tho I profit from my goats) but we are both childless and the furries become like family. 

But do not blame yourself regarding Tinker and Pony. No matter now many years they live, IF they are positive, their life with YOU is better than most goats can ever dream of. They are provided for, have nice shelter, get toa free range and get loved on daily. They don't know about years and time, they just know how lucky they are to have found YOU.

Hugs and take care of yourself. Whats done is done.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> The following is what I found for treating the ground.
> 
> Manure contamination of feed can occur when the same equipment is used to move both feed and manure - this practice should be avoided. Also, manure contamination of water, particularly ponds, wallows or streams that animals can drink from, must be avoided to limit spread of the infection.Fence off those muddy manure areas before the newborns hit the ground.
> 
> If possible, contaminated pastures should be tilled and re-seeded. When possible, heavily contaminated land should be kept free of young animals for at least 4 months while the majority of MAP die off. Recent studies have shown that a small population of MAP may still remain up to a year later â therefore do not put young animals on fields recently treated with manure from or grazed by infected animals, and do not feed the next crop to young animals. See Biology of MAP for more detail on the organism in the environment.


So maybe I should lock them up for 4 months.... Everything will be buried in snow soon. I can not till the entire property and re-seed. They spend their days on my porch and around the house. in the pastures. around the grove...everywhere. It would be impossible for me to till up the entire property and re-seed.  I'm really not trying to shoot down any ideas and I want you to keep them coming...or try to fix my way of thinking. I am trying to be as open as possible. It just seems so futile today.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

dbarjacres said:


> So sorry for you. I would be an anxious wreck and popping meds like crazy or drinking myself silly. Your four leggeds are your family as are mine (even tho I profit from my goats) but we are both childless and the furries become like family.
> 
> But do not blame yourself regarding Tinker and Pony. No matter now many years they live, IF they are positive, their life with YOU is better than most goats can ever dream of. They are provided for, have nice shelter, get toa free range and get loved on daily. They don't know about years and time, they just know how lucky they are to have found YOU.
> 
> Hugs and take care of yourself. Whats done is done.


Thank you:Bawling:
Thank you everyone!:Bawling:


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

At the Fertility Farming link, the treatment for Johnes is down the page. Go past Sterility, Tuberculosis, Rheumatism, Calf Scour, and then you get to Johnes. The recommended treatment is mostly dietary, with short fasts followed by a gruel if there is a bout of diarrhea. A short fast won't hurt most animals with diarrhea - it lets the intestines relax. The only time I'd worry about a short fast is if they'd already lost a lot of weight.

Locking them up for the winter shouldn't be a big deal. And tilling for goat berries can be a thorough raking.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Otter said:


> At the Fertility Farming link, the treatment for Johnes is down the page. Go past Sterility, Tuberculosis, Rheumatism, Calf Scour, and then you get to Johnes. The recommended treatment is mostly dietary, with short fasts followed by a gruel if there is a bout of diarrhea. A short fast won't hurt most animals with diarrhea - it lets the intestines relax. The only time I'd worry about a short fast is if they'd already lost a lot of weight.
> 
> Locking them up for the winter shouldn't be a big deal. And tilling for goat berries can be a thorough raking.


I really don't mean to be rebellious. There is no diarrhea. She has lost 30 + lbs and is really skin and bones. We are juststarting to get some pink in her eye membrane. I will not fast her now...she is loosing protein too quickly. It didn't even register on the blood test it was so low. Does tilling mean removing all goat berries??


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Johnes positive goats do not always have diarrhea..most of the time they do not. Sheep don't always exhibit it either.

Min..this is what *I* would do..certainly not saying that you should do it. The article tells you why you should fast them..it's all in the gut. If the gut can't absorb nutrients..it's a losing battle. But again, it's what I would try..not saying in the least bit that you should.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Ok...I'll go back and re-read it. I'm starting to feel exhausted and it's getting dark. Gota go get everyone in first. It just pains me to even look at them right now.


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

We do ground burning here in Tallahassee - I wonder if that would help in the spring?

I think that you knew that you were going to get positives back. You have to get past the sad side of this and get back to enjoying your pets. If you wonder everytime you look at them - get them tested - if nothing else it will give you a baseline and it will be done - the unknown, wishing to rewind the clock is driving you crazy.

You have been doing the very best with the knowledge that you have - look how much you have learned. I think about you every day


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Hubby just got home and is helping to pick up the pieces of a horrible day.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Michele, the blessing of goats may be what keeps the littles from contracting the disease: Goats are not poopy messers.

Cows spread Johnes more readily b/c they are sloppy, poop-splashed little piggies. (They are lovely, don't get me wrong, but they are POOPY!)

Goats, OTOH, are PRISSY, not POOPY! Goats see a berry, and they're all like, "oooh, nooooh! Icky, icky, icky! Get that away from my food! Ooogy! YUCKY!"

So it's entirely possible that the other goats are not even THINKING about getting sick.

p.s. I pm'd you on FB


----------



## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Oh Michele 

:grouphug:


----------



## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh Min! I was so hoping when I read the title.... Big hugs to you and your goat babies you are one of the best goat mom's I know. Somehow something WILL work out, you and your babies will be okay.


----------



## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

Aww hon, I'm so sorry


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Johnes positive goats do not always have diarrhea..most of the time they do not. Sheep don't always exhibit it either.
> 
> Min..this is what *I* would do..certainly not saying that you should do it. The article tells you why you should fast them..it's all in the gut. If the gut can't absorb nutrients..it's a losing battle. But again, it's what I would try..not saying in the least bit that you should.


Sherry, there is no way I can fast her in the condition she is in. i could easily fast Frankie! But no way ...no way with Gretta. But I am not over feeding her either. I emailed the vet to see what else can be done.


----------



## MaddieLynn (Nov 23, 2011)

I wonder if johnes is anything close to what celiac is in people... The effects sound similar to me. If so some sort of diet change may help.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Whoa, whoa, whoa, baby girl! What is all of this? I read you blaming yourself because Gretta caught a disease that you didn't know about, and now you are talking about locking up the babies forever, how you will never be able to have ruminenants again, and you are somehow killing off the neighbor's cows?

WHOA there sweety! Easy up!

First off, how do you know that your neighbor's cows don't already have it? Johne's is rampant in cattle herds, and goes untested and un-spoken about. A dirty little industry secret. So much a secret that many dairy farmers no little to nothing about it! When Gretta caught it as a baby, it was likely the fault of ignorant cattle people!

You might want to ask the neighbor if he tests for Johne's though.

As for the babies? They are currently beyond the period that most babies are first exposed to it. Please remember that being EXPOSED to Johne's is NOT a death sentence! Some animals DO fight off the bacteria after being exposed, and never develop the disease. Exposure does NOT equal disease.

For Frankie and Flossie, have you looked into treating with a combination of antibiotics such as rifabutin, and a macrolide such as clarithromycin? Those two drugs have *killed* the bacteria that causes the disease in Crohn's patients, but it is a LONG treatment regimen. Months of treatment, but the regimen HAS worked in humans.

Also, never have more rumenants? Honey, Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis is a *bacteria*. It's existence outside of an animal host is ~finite~. One year, maximum. One year, if you do nothing but air things out, before you know for a fact that all traces of the bacteria are gone from your property. If you go medieval on your barn and such, you can cut that time. But even in complete dormacy, under perfect conditions, Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis cannot liv more than a year without a host...so your place is NOT "forever contaminated"!

Now, take deep breaths and go take a nap...you need more sleep than you have been getting.

It is treatable with effort. With the young ones, it is treatable. It is finite. It is not the end of the world. And if it was all that contagious, why haven't ALL the cattle, goats and sheep already died off from it? 

:grouphug: Easy hon, we'll get through this, okay?


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Caliann can I just say you are one amazing woman? 

Justine


----------



## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

I am so sorry, you do know that they haven't actually grown a culture yet right? Cause it takes at least 7 weeks minium. It not like they can make it grow faster then it's nature.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Manchamom said:


> I am so sorry, you do know that they haven't actually grown a culture yet right? Cause it takes at least 7 weeks minimum. Plus the PCR test, hasn't happened yet. It not like they can make it grow faster then it's nature. Unless I've been abducted by aliens there's no way it's been 7 weeks.
> I lack social graces, I'm sorry about that too. I do speak the truth about how long that culture has to grow. Go check out some of the other info I already gave you to make sure they do it right.


The first test was Direct PCR that came back positive. Then I sent feces and blood to a different lab. The lab was told to grow culture and confirm with PCR. They did a direct PCR and it was positive. Now they are doing the culture like I asked in the first place. Then the blood ELISA test results came yesterday as positive. so that it 3 positives. Yes the culture can take many weeks and there still is that test. But I'm convinced.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa, baby girl! What is all of this? I read you blaming yourself because Gretta caught a disease that you didn't know about, and now you are talking about locking up the babies forever, how you will never be able to have ruminenants again, and you are somehow killing off the neighbor's cows?


This made me laugh....thanks Caliann 

Yes, I was loosing it. or I lost it whatever. Sometimes hysterical crying makes me insane. I went to bed for awhile and I woke up not crying. Now I'm going back to bed. 
Thank you so much everyone.


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm so sorry about the outcome of the tests.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> Please remember that being EXPOSED to Johne's is NOT a death sentence! Some animals DO fight off the bacteria after being exposed, and never develop the disease. Exposure does NOT equal disease.


I'm printing this and taping it on my monitor and bathroom mirror.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I looked up powdered fenugreek seeds and was about to order it but then read that it suppresses the appetite. I don't think I want her appetite suppressed at all. And it doesn't say in the article how much how often. I'll keep researching


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

momagoat61 said:


> Michelle they could possibly not be contaminated with this!!!! Just because yes they have been housed with a positive herd mate that doesn't make them 100% contaminated nor ever exposed enough at this time to exbit signs ever, there's that chance they are fine at this point and time..


I think I need to print and tape up this one too...


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Otter said:


> *Stop that this minute!!*
> 
> I mean it. You stop that right now.
> 
> ...


Agree. Please stop torturing yourself!!! All that will accomplish is to make you crazy. Your dh and your animals need you. Take a deep breath, accept the situation and move forward as best you can. 

If it were me I'd do the forage only diet. Anecdotally it has worked with cows and you and Gretta have nothing to lose. If nothing else maybe it would extend her time with you by keeping her gut in as natural and strong a condition as possible. I'd also be seriously researching herbs I could give her to help her try and heal her gut. 

I'm so sorry this has happened to your Gretta. Hang in there, you'll be ok. 

You have no choice, right?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm much better today. Thank you so much for helping me and putting up with my meltdown :ashamed:

Now back to trying to get Gretta better. I really can't fast her. She is just too thin and weak and I feel like it would be cruel. I could do it for a day....maybe but not for a whole week. 
I sent that article from Johnes website about using anti-biotics to my vet and will wait to see what he thinks about that. 

I wonder if Slippery Elm Bark would be good for her gut. She is still getting ProbiosMax twice a day. 
She is eating very rich alfalfa and about half a handful of whole oats. Maybe I should cut the oats out? I just wish she would start putting on some weight. 

Everyone was happy and cozy this morning


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Michelle is the 1/2 hand full of oats all she eats as for grain or is that all you give her? I have a 17 plus year old mini doe, she looks just like Gretta minus the horns that since May of this year has to stay locked up in the barn away from the others becasue she is blind and is very unsteedy on her feet and the others are way to rough with her and she will get knocked down, not on purpose, but by accident if I let her out with the others. Two of the others just happen to be two of her last four babies that she raised that she had back in March of 2003 and they know good and well she's their mother On the weekends I lock the others in the barn for several hours when the weather is good and I'm at home and I let Tabetha out to do as she pleases in the pasture. Tabetha eats probably 32oz of grain daily, oats, afalfa pellets, beet bulp, a hand full of sweet feed and then is looking for her treats of goat cookies, and carrots, celary, and what ever else I walk out with she'll eat and she has hay in front of her 24/7. Tabetha for her age is a fat gal for sure. Something mine all love when the weather is cold is beet bulp soaked in boiling water, I let it soak for 10 to 15 mintues and they love it steaming hot, I just put in a enough boiling water so its not soupy, but fluffs up. I think I would try at this point with Gretta feeding her as much as she'll eat and not withhold anything. I would still concider seperating Tinker and Pony from all the others, but thats up to you.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Minelson said:


> I really don't mean to be rebellious. There is no diarrhea. She has lost 30 + lbs and is really skin and bones. We are juststarting to get some pink in her eye membrane. I will not fast her now...she is loosing protein too quickly. It didn't even register on the blood test it was so low. Does tilling mean removing all goat berries??


Easy there, killer. I wasn't telling you what to do, just trying to help you find the info on the page, that's all.

Deep breaths. I'm glad you're feeling better today. Just remember the first rule; Don't Panic.


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I found something today about humans with Crohn's apparently being cured of the MAP bacterium by an antibiotic regimen by a doc out of Australia. Here's a link to a blog where a person in the comments says this: I would like to note that I happen personally to be a person who seems to have been &#8220;cured&#8221; of Crohn&#8217;s Disease, by all measurable parameters, on a protocol derived by Dr. Thomas Borody of Australia, using antibiotics specifically targeting MAP as the putative cause of Crohn&#8217;s.

The comment above is by a Judith Lipton and she states she is a physician.

The Most Important Disease You Probably Never Heard Of - Brainstorm - The Chronicle of Higher Education

It might be worth checking out the regimen he uses and consult with a vet to see if it could be compatible with or adapted to goat treatment.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Okay, folks, for the naturopaths, naturalists, etc., offering all natural diets and home remedies for Gretta, this is what the bacteria does and WHY Gretta is skinny:

"The animal's immune system reacts to the M. paratuberculosis invasion by recruiting more macrophages and lymphocytes to the site of the infection. The lymphocytes release a variety of chemicals signals, called cytokines, in an attempt to increase the bacterial killing power of the macrophages. Macrophages fuse together, forming large cells, called multinucleated giant cells, in an apparent attempt to kill the mycobacteria. Infiltration of infected tissues with millions of lymphocytes and macrophages leads to visible thickening of the intestines. This prevents nutrient absorption, and wasting results."

This is what we are dealing with here. Gretta is loosing weight because her body is trying to fight off the bacteria, and by doing so, the walls of her rumen and intestines are getting too thick for her to absorb nutrients through them. What is more, unless her immune system is suppressed, it will only get worse. We cannot, at this time, give her a "healthy gastro-intestinal tract" because it is the immune response _of her own body_ that is causing the problem.

In other words, she is slowly starving to death because her own body is blocking off any way for her to absorb nutrients..

Given that information, do you still suggest that Min try to fast Gretta for a week, or that she switch Gretta to a harder-to-digest roughage diet, or fill her full of herbs? If Gretta is given ANYTHING that will boost her immune system, that system is only going to make more mega-cells that thicken the walls of her intestinal tract, causing her to starve faster.

Please have an understanding of the exact problem before dispensing remedies that worked for so-and-so, which remedies many of you don't even understand yourselves, only that it worked for so-and-so.

*******************************************

Min, my own advise is to put Gretta back on the soups. You can add Red Cell or other supplements as well. Also, put her back on Replamin. It has vitamins and minerals in the most easily absorb-able forms, which is important for her system. By making the mashes, which is, in essence, cooking the food for her, the heat breaks down the carbs and proteins into things that are easily absorbed, and smaller, so they can make it through those thick walls in her digestive track. Also, go back to grains. The Senior Equine, or Mare-and-Foal is fine. You want SIMPLE carbs and SIMPLE proteins, and SIMPLE fats in her diet now. In fact, everything that you were ever told was bad for them because it would make them fat? Give those things to Gretta. If it were me, I would be giving her a diet of corn meal mush mixed with vegetable oil and top-dressed with corn syrup. Twice a week (maybe more often, depending) I would mix in 3cc of Replamin Plus Gel for easily digestible vitamins and minerals, because she can no longer get these things from her food.

All the junk food she was never supposed to have? Give it to her now. She needs it. See if you can buy animal crackers in 50lb lots.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Thank you, Cliff! That was the antibiotic program I was trying to find! Even if Gretta is too far to be helped, it could be used for any of the others.


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I understand how Johne's works Caliann. 

MAP thrives in an acidic environment. It also digests carbohydrates and produces more acid which is thought to do the initial damage to the tissue. The thinking is that by removing high carbohydrates thereby lowering the acid in the gut (and also depriving the organism of easy food) the gut has the best chance of starting to heal itself. 

You can temporarily feed the animal richer feeds till the gut gets so bad that nothing at all can be digested, or you can give the gut a chance to start healing itself. Getting the gut healed is the only way the animal will survive more than short term.

As I said, that is what I would do. I did not suggest that Michelle do so, just putting out information for her to consider.


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

This top photo is a photo of infected intestinal track, infected with Johnes' 
The bottom photo is a photo of a normal intestinal track,. 

Which one do you think is going to absorb nutrients better.. Answer >Bottom Photo

The above post is a great post CaliannaG!!!


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I will also remind everyone that we had a Johne's positive cow in the explosive diarrhea stage hold good condition for 8 months on only grass/grass hay. We had to get rid of her for other reasons so I cant say for sure that she would've eventually converted to a negative status. But for her to hold good condition for that long at that stage of Johne's is unheard of. 

That was when I realized we needed to stop feeding our ruminants grain.


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

momagoat61 said:


> This top photo is a photo of infected intestinal track, infected with Johnes'
> The bottom photo is a photo of a normal intestinal track,.
> 
> Which one do you think is going to absorb nutrients better.. Answer >Bottom Photo
> ...


First of all, it's an intestinal tract. Second, if you don't find a way to heal the intestine the animal dies no matter how much of anything you feed it.


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree with Cliff. But, it's all a choice and everyone has to make the best choice for their animals. I don't get that it has to be anything other than that.

I come from a natural medicine point of view. Not only for the animals, but definitely for us humans in this family. The Fenu whatever that I don't know how to spell.. is meant to use when you put the animal on a fast..it cuts the appetite so that they are not pacing and begging to eat. Or at least that's my take. 

When we take away browse and pastures we are trying to change that gut. We are saying to that animal's gut..eat this..change the way you were built to digest. I don't personally think that that works out in the end very well.

And as long as I'm at it, pelleted feed is a puzzle to me. What's really in it? Are ya feeding any meat scraps to your ruminant? How about those alfalfa pellets? Are they Monsanto's GMO? I read those scientist's papers about their fears and warnings on some of this GMO stuff..it didn't sound good for animal or man.

Are we depending too much on meds, vaccines and chemical this and thats? I think so..just my opinion. The more we intervene, the less the goats or other animals' immune systems work and get hardy. 

I'm probably totally wrong. And I certainly am *not* advising anyone on anything. But for me and mine, I think we will go more towards the past than the future.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Cliff said:


> I understand how Johne's works Caliann.
> 
> MAP thrives in an acidic environment. It also digests carbohydrates and produces more acid which is thought to do the initial damage to the tissue. The thinking is that by removing high carbohydrates thereby lowering the acid in the gut (and also depriving the organism of easy food) the gut has the best chance of starting to heal itself.


This is wrong, Cliff....which is why your natural treatment program would be wrong.

MAP actually invades the macrophlanges and reproduces INSIDE the macrophlange cells, until there are so many that the cells burst open, releasing the bacteria. That is WHY the body beefs up the macrophlanges, in order that the things will do their work, and not be eaten instead.

The MAP bacteria does not feed off of carbs in the digestive track, or cause high acidosis. It feeds on the very cells that are used by the body to destroy bacteria. That is what makes it so invasive...it invades the body's defenses and *eats* them.

This is why changes in diet do not affect the bacteria much. It lives and reproduces _inside the macrophlange cells_, NOT inside the digestive tract as a larger environment.


----------



## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

:Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling:
((HUGS))


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Ok I need to find the study I read (a while back) that discussed how acid and carbohydrates play a part. I don't have time now unfortunately.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~sighs~ I wish I could get ya'll to understand biology more.

Please tell me how diet is supposed to heal the damage done to the intestinal tract by _the hosts own body?_ That's not bacteria or scarring that you are seeing in that picture, that is huge complexes of macrophlange colonies. Do you suggest feeding a diet of teasel and cactus spines in the attempt to try to shave that down into something that will absorb a calorie or two?

And Cliff, I am curious about your cured cow....did you run the ELISA, PRC, or slow culture on her, or a mixture, to determine that her explosive diarrhea was caused by Johne's Disease? Are you stating that ALL cow at that stage of Johne's disease can be cured of it by simply changing their diet? Or is it possible that, if Johne's was what was causing her problem, that you got lucky and just had a really exceptional cow, or divine intervention, and the diet change had nothing to do with it?

Because, you see, I live in cattle country, where there are thousands of acres of cattle roaming and consuming nothing but that "all natural" grass and forage diet you are talking about. And you know what? Some of those cattle waste away and drop dead from Johne's disease on that diet...and they have had that diet for a LONG time. So how can you say that a grass/grass hay diet will cure Gretta when there are thousands of beef cattle on that very diet who are dying from Johne's every year?

You see, I know, and Min knows, that Gretta is dying. I REALLY appreciate you finding the antibiotic treatment. It MIGHT be able to save Gretta, but we all know that is unlikely. However, it could be the *real* savoir of the rest of the herd. But what we are trying to do with Gretta is to keep her as comfortable as possible as long as possible. At this stage, no amount of sand paper is going to thin those walls to make them fully functional again...that is why cattle are out on the ranges, eating their purely natural grass diet, and dying of thickening intestinal walls due to Johne's Disease....the diet cannot combat the power of a healthy body in immune overload to kill itself.

~sighs~ I know this sounds harsh, but I don't want Min torturing herself and Gretta with every remedy to come out of someone's grandpa, or or crazy Uncle Ed, that this critter had that (without any back up tests to prove it), and Aunt Ellen's sister Bee gave THIS, and *praise be to God*, the critter was CURED!

Diet isn't enough. If the all natural diet was all it took, than none of the cattle out here, who spend every day, all day, on nothing but free range, would ever die of Johne's, would they? Fasting won't do it. Why fast a starving, emaciated animal? To add the feelings of an empty belly to all of her other problems? Any studies, any proof whatsoever that your ideas work? Other than that they are "natural"?

~sighs again~ I know ya'll mean well. As they say, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I just think it is along the lines of telling someone that has just been diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer that they could get rid of it if they would just drink some ginseng and ginko tea.


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I like you Caliann..you know that. But I think you go too far sometimes. 

I for one won't suggest any of my uneducated "uncle bill" remedies anymore.

I thought..and I was wrong..that there was room for discussion and other people's ways and thoughts. Like Pat Colby's way of doing copper and stuff seems to be okay on this forum. But her way of dealing with Johnes is not..right? 

Just because someone suggests something doesn't mean that Min or anyone else has to use it. BUT, there may very well be someone sitting out here that does want to hear about a different way. I very much enjoy reading and researching what Cliff and others write about. 

*VERY UNCOOL:*
_~sighs~ I know this sounds harsh, but I don't want Min torturing herself and Gretta with every remedy to come out of someone's grandpa, or or crazy Uncle Ed, that this critter had that (without any back up tests to prove it), and Aunt Ellen's sister Bee gave THIS, and *praise be to God*, the critter was CURED!

Diet isn't enough. If the all natural diet was all it took, than none of the cattle out here, who spend every day, all day, on nothing but free range, would ever die of Johne's, would they? Fasting won't do it. Why fast a starving, emaciated animal? To add the feelings of an empty belly to all of her other problems? Any studies, any proof whatsoever that your ideas work? Other than that they are "natural"?

~sighs again~ I know ya'll mean well. As they say, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I just think it is along the lines of telling someone that has just been diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer that they could get rid of it if they would just drink some ginseng and ginko tea._


My best to Min and Gretta.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

The soup I made for her was made from Mare & Foal pellets. She stopped eating it but I can try it again. Maybe put some Slippery Elm Bark in it. One of the problems is she is VERY picky about what she eats. She will not eat animal crackers anymore, or BOSS. She will only eat 1/2 a handful of whole oats and then stops. She eats a lot of the alfalfa but will not eat alfalfa pellets anymore. She will eat saltine crackers.


----------



## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> ~sighs~ I wish I could get ya'll to understand biology more.
> 
> Please tell me how diet is supposed to heal the damage done to the intestinal tract by _the hosts own body?_ That's not bacteria or scarring that you are seeing in that picture, that is huge complexes of macrophlange colonies. Do you suggest feeding a diet of teasel and cactus spines in the attempt to try to shave that down into something that will absorb a calorie or two?
> 
> ...


Wow, evidently someone died and made you God and I missed it? Is this still a public forum or do we now need to check in with you to get our posts approved before posting?

I am going to choose to continue to believe that you don't understand how incredibly insulting you can be because I like you and don't want to believe that you are doing this on purpose. Maybe it's the TBI you had, idk. I actually sat down and considered this and I decided that don't want to believe that you would purposely be that unkind.

Some things necessitate thinking outside the box. If there were multiple studies documenting the complete mechanisms of action and the cure for Johne's there would be no problem, would there? There aren't. Even the antibiotic therapy is anecdotal at this point. I read something that suggested what I posted had been effective for someone with cows. My diagnosed Johne's cow had very encouraging results on the same regimen. Should I just not mention that? Isn't helping one another with our individual experiences what this forum is for?

If I had listened to conventional wisdom I'd be crippled in a wheelchair with RA right now. I didn't like the answers I was getting so I investigated on my own. I no longer have RA, to the astonishment of my doctors.

Since you have repeatedly indicated how ignorant I am I feel it necessary to say that I have a Bachelors degree in science with a 4.0 GPA. I do a job that 90% of people in my field are unable to do. I hold certifications that even fewer are able to attain. I don't like saying that because I don't want to appear to brag. But I am not an idiot.

Min I'm sorry this ugliness has been dragged into the middle of your thread. I really feel for what you are going through. I've been meaning to ask you about Gretta's weight. In the only picture I saw she didn't look too bad but it might not have shown her clearly? Compared to your other goats I could tell she was thinner but your other goats are pretty um.... robust... for goats .


----------



## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

:grouphug: I am so sorry Minelson


----------



## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I hate to ask Minelson but could she be in pain and thus refusing food? I mean if you look at the inflamation of the intestines in that pic I imagine that would cause severe discomfort and pain. People and animals in pain don't eat.

Also with the times she seems content and lying down watching the others could that be when her body is in a state of euphoria?

I just watched this disturbing show on NatGeo about an Indian (India) religion where they commit themselves to a timed suicide. The nun they followed was 12 yrs into it. Starting with eating once a day and then a month before she stopped all food only taking milk and juice and water. Then only water. Once she stopped water she took 8 days to die. Inbetween the pain and thrashing she would experience euphoria, become coherent for a bit then repeat. As she was starving to death just a thought... this woman's ups and downs made me think of Gretta.

Just remember you gave her an excellent life and more love than she could dream of.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I would prefer to hear all ideas. That is all I'm going to say about that. 
DbarJacres...I was thinking along the same lines....She may be suffering now  I am planning on contacting the Johnes site and asking them about that. 
Cliff...she looks so small. My mom came today to visit and hasn't seen her in about 2 years and she was shocked at her size. When you put your hands on her you can feel every bone. And even the bones on her face are pronounced. Ok...I'm going to loose it again. This is just too painful for me. 
She would not eat the soup I made for her tonight but she ate 4 saltines, tons of alfalfa and that is it. 
What I need to know now is if she is suffering. If she feels a constant hunger that can't be quenched.


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Michele to be honest I think you will be the only one who can tell if she is truly suffering. She can't tell you in words but you know her and what she is like. If she truly is suffering I think you will know and make the right choice either way. Making that last decision for them if the worst. 

When my old boy got to that point I knew in my heart he was ready. I wasn't ready but his eyes told me he was ready to go home (I am crying now thinking about it). Making that call and knowing I what I was deciding to do was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I guess what I am saying is that when that time comes (maybe sooner or maybe later) I think you will know in your heart. When she is no longer happy in life no matter what and she just has that tired look I think that is when we must finally say "Until we meet again my dear friend".

I am so so sorry Michele that both of you are going through this. Watching someone you love waste away be it animal or human is one of the worst things. I did it with my old boy and then again a few months later when cancer took my Grandpa. Oh how my heart aches for you . ((((((((hugs))))))))


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm sorry, so sorry, you have to try to sort things out with poor Gretta doing poorly. 
I just wish that things were different. I think you are wonderful to work so hard at this.


----------



## wiscgoat (Oct 28, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear about Greta. As for the other goats, really, take it one day at a time! 
Does anyone have any specific questions or topics that they would like me to ask the vet from my blog? I plan on talking to him this week and will update with any topics or questions anyone would have...?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

wiscgoat said:


> I am so sorry to hear about Greta. As for the other goats, really, take it one day at a time!
> Does anyone have any specific questions or topics that they would like me to ask the vet from my blog? I plan on talking to him this week and will update with any topics or questions anyone would have...?


Thanks Wiscgoat...Yes. I have a question. Gretta is on Prednisone and that is what is keeping her going now. I am wondering, does she constantly feel like she is starving? In a suffering way I mean. In other words, is the pred masking any suffering that might be going on?


----------



## wiscgoat (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi, I can see what he says about treating the condition. ..again sorry to hear about your goat..


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta had a really good day yesterday. She ate 2 little boxes of raisins from my mom and then kept following my mom around. And we ALL went for a walk last night. It's the first time Gretta came along in months! Today it's only 20 degrees and she is not shivering or anything at all.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Go Gretta go. Glad you had a happy birthday.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Here is a picture from last night. It really doesn't show how boney she is but it does show how little she is compared to Frankie. She used to be almost as big as him


----------



## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Min, 

I've been on Pred since I was 13. It makes me hungry all the time. I have no experience with Johnes but from the Pred standpoint yes I'm always starving. I also have Addisons disease and that too makes me hungry all the time. I waste away without the Pred. The only thing I wouldn't try is the fasting. I'm already starving and the idea just seems like torture. Sorry Sherry but that's the truth. I am a foot shorted then my hubs and 40lbs lighter (he's skinny) but I can eat twice what he eats any day of the week. I just thought you old want to know. I'm so sorry about miss Gretta and that you have to go through this.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks Kris


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Sounds like Gretta is really enjoying the visit with your mom too & holding her own. Go Gretta & Go Michele, she wouldn't be doing this well if it wasn't for you!
Loved the tiara too by the way!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Another really good day. I did make a couple changes and maybe that is why. I started the Dyne again and she got the Replamin on Fri. When I went out tonight she came running FAST to me. And then she proceeded to attack Rocky my dog. I know that she will never get better 100% but it sure is nice to have some of the old spunky Gretta back


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Minelson said:


> Another really good day. I did make a couple changes and maybe that is why. I started the Dyne again and she got the Replamin on Fri. When I went out tonight she came running FAST to me. And then she proceeded to attack Rocky my dog. I know that she will never get better 100% but it sure is nice to have some of the old spunky Gretta back


How encouraging!!! Sounds like she is doing good  Keep up the awesome job you are doing keeping Gretta comfy and happy!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I told my Mom, who is visiting, that she can't go home tomorrow because Gretta has been so much better since she got here!


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

Keep those raisins going!!!! lol I take mine every day, but those are soaked in gin


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm sorry to read this. Be brave and strong! Wish you the best!

SPIKE


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Set back. Today is not very good. It's cold and she was shivering this morning..so was fat Frankie though. It was 30 degrees in the barn. 18 outside. She didn't browse at all just laid in the sun all day. I will not let her die cold. That is my biggest fear. I am devising a sweater and making alterations on the coat that Momagoat61 sent me so it fits. Kicking myself cuz I should have done this earlier! down to 13 degrees tonight they say...so that means probably 8-10. 
So I was thinking, when it REALLY gets cold do I bring her in the house? But then she would freak being away from Frankie & Flossie. And if Frankie & Flossie have Johnes, stress is what sets it off. I better get to work


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I would bring them all in the house


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

Heat some towels up in your dryer on high. If you do this everyone will be warm everytime you go out  Take the warm towel and place it under her sweater/blanket so that it warms up the spine and kidneys.

She is just missing your Mom too - get her back!!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I used a very VERY nice Polertec mock neck to put on her. I was going through my stuff looking for my favorite picks when I'm cold. Hubby got me this as a gift a few years ago. I felt a bit guilty while cutting off the arms to make it fit Gretta. Then I held it up and WA-LA!...big ol stain right on the chest..good bye guilt!! I think she likes it..I'll get a picture


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, picture please! I always use Hot water bottles under old towels for kids born in early spring if it turns cold. Lots of times I find the big goats snuggling on them too. Why don't you try those. I get the water as hot as absolutely possible because it's in the thick rubber water bottle & under a towel. Those with the goat laying on them will stay warm close to all night long. Plus they are easy to wash if they get poo or pee on them & no electric cords.
I wish that coat I sent would have fit little Gretta. You sure you don't want me to send you the other 1 I have?


----------



## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Min I bought a heated pad for my spring kids. It gently warms them with no hot spots. The cord is wrapped in wire to prevent chewing (it's made for dogs). It has a fleece top but it's kinda cheap fleece. My goats love it and its big enough that my Nigie fits all the way on it.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

There is an old horse blanket trick for super cold weather that was common before all the modern insulation was developed. You put one blanket on and a second one over that. Then you stuffed straw between the two like one would stuff a scarecrow. It's very good insulation. 
I'm think it might work for you because you have the fleece and the goat blanket.


----------



## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Cheering for you and your goaties, Minelson...

:: hugs ::


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

where I want to said:


> There is an old horse blanket trick for super cold weather that was common before all the modern insulation was developed. You put one blanket on and a second one over that. Then you stuffed straw between the two like one would stuff a scarecrow. It's very good insulation.
> I'm think it might work for you because you have the fleece and the goat blanket.



Especially if 1 of the coats is too big. That would leave plenty of room for straw/stuffing when it gets really bitter this winter.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm sad that people have dropped out of helping me with Gretta. I am trying everything and nothing works. She will ONLY EAT ALFALFA AND PRUNES AND SALTINE crackers. That is it. It's like she knows what will work and what will not. She and I are at the point that she is staying alive for her babies...Frankie & Flossie. I can't imagine how they will live without her. She is their rock and they have no clue how to live without her. The whole farm needs her. and the thought of having her gone is devastating .. I don't want her to suffer but she has so much to live for.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Minelson, I am sorry you are feeling so badly... but you know, sometimes, no matter how hard you try, the best you can do isn't going to be enough. 

Frankie and Flossie will be fine. Many, many animals are separated from their dam at birth, and go on to be very happy, good livestock. 

I wonder who is whose rock, dear. You are holding on to Gretta with all your strength. Is it that you believe she has so much to live for, or that you are terrified of living in a world without her?


----------



## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad.


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Minelson, I'm so sorry you feel down. We have not dropped out. We just don't know what else to tell you. I have been following your threads since the very beginning. In Gretta's case you know what the problem is. Just keep doing what you are doing. You can't get any more nutritious food than alfalfa hay. Just be grateful she is eating it. 

I agree with Pony---Frankie and Flossie would be just fine. I hope this doesn't upset you even more, but when Squirt was laying in the barn dead, the other goats paid no attention. And things are back to normal today as far as they are concerned. It seems like some of our goats are more attached to me and my mom than to each other. You will always be there for them.


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

As Nancy has said, we have NOT dropped out, all we can do is be with you & Gretta the best we can. 
You are already doing everything you know to do. We cant possibly add to it.
If she does pass, Frankie & Flossy still have each other. 
I have found sibling bonds stronger than maternal ones. 
We love you Min, we are all praying & agonizing for & with you.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Min, I would love to be able to give you a magic recipe of something that will fix her, or make her better, or more comfortable, but sweety, I have given you every bit of knowledge that i know on the problem. I have researched studies that I have put through Google Translate first, just to try and find something that maybe the English speaking world doesn't know. It all comes down to the same thing:

The drugs used to treat the disease are a combination of metronidazole (Flagyl) and ciprofloxacin (Cipro) to control the bacteria, with prednisone to reduce the inflammation in the intestines and promote healing, and azathioprine (Imuran) to suppress the immune system long enough for the intestines to heal. That is all I have found that consistently works. That is it. I have looked and looked. That combination of drugs has been known to beat back the disease and even cause recovery in both human Crohn's patients, and in animal trials with livestock that exhibited Johne's Disease. It's a drug cocktail, it has to be used long-term (we are speaking of months here), but it has been proven to work in putting the disease in remission.

I'm not abandoning you. I just haven't found anything else to help. Other than doing a drug cocktail to try to put her in remission, the only thing that CAN be done for her is giver her a junk-food diet that is easily absorbed, and make her comfortable.

Tell me what I can do to help, and I will do it.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

OK another suggestion to help with the cold if aren't doing it already. She may enjoy buckets of warm water periodically during the day. 

I check this thread several times a day. I just wish I could do more.


----------



## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

I have nothing much to add except hugs. :grouphug: 

I do think that deciding the right time is never easy, it is never clear, and we can only hope we are making the right decision at the right time. 

You are in my thoughts.


----------



## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

where I want to said:


> OK another suggestion to help with the cold if aren't doing it already. She may enjoy buckets of warm water periodically during the day.
> 
> I check this thread several times a day. I just wish I could do more.


Warm drinking water is a great idea.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> Min, I would love to be able to give you a magic recipe of something that will fix her, or make her better, or more comfortable, but sweety, I have given you every bit of knowledge that i know on the problem. I have researched studies that I have put through Google Translate first, just to try and find something that maybe the English speaking world doesn't know. It all comes down to the same thing:
> 
> The drugs used to treat the disease are a combination of metronidazole (Flagyl) and ciprofloxacin (Cipro) to control the bacteria, with prednisone to reduce the inflammation in the intestines and promote healing, and azathioprine (Imuran) to suppress the immune system long enough for the intestines to heal. That is all I have found that consistently works. That is it. I have looked and looked. That combination of drugs has been known to beat back the disease and even cause recovery in both human Crohn's patients, and in animal trials with livestock that exhibited Johne's Disease. It's a drug cocktail, it has to be used long-term (we are speaking of months here), but it has been proven to work in putting the disease in remission.
> 
> ...


I need doses. I can get the meds ... but I need doses. I am having trouble finding someone to give me that. My boss trusts my judgment enough to help with a cocktail but is at a loss as to how to do it.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks to you all......Sorry  I just need some big doses of reassurance I guess. This is exhausting.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

It is late tonight, but tomorrow morning, I will attempt to dig out some doses on those. It's troublesome, because the doctors don't want to share that information on how they do it with Crohn's patients, and the animal trials pre-doing-it-with-humans are a bit confusing. I will try working it out tomorrow morning, when I can see. (eyes getting blurry)

I should be able to get you *something*, a starting point, in the morning.


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

((((((hugs))))))) I have nothing to say Michele but I can always offer hugs. I am so so sorry you are going through this. My prayers are with you and my heart aches so much for you. I will say it again no matter what happens we all will be here for you. I think I speak for everyone when I say we haven't gone anywhere I think we are just at a loss of what to say. 

I have tried to write many things but deleted all of them because honestly what can you say. I just want you to know (as I told you in PM's) I have been there and watching your loved one go through what Gretta is going through and the wondering if you are doing the right thing or not...it can eat away at you. YOU will know when her time is up and honestly I say if she is willing to fight then you keep fighting right beside her. When she is ready to let go I firmly believe you will know and I believe God will be right beside both of you as you take that final journey. 

I hope I didn't say anything that offended or hurt....like I said I wrote so many different things and each one I deleted. 

Justine


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Justine, you are the most non-hurtful, unoffensive people I know! Thank you for all the kind words. When my 18 year old dog Shep had to be put to sleep I went through something similar. But I was more prepared and more "in touch" with what was going on. Maybe I am handling this so poorly because of menopause and I'm drinking to numb out. 
Calianne thank you for digging in so deep and spending so much time on this I really do appreciate it so much. 
You all are wonderful and I don't know what I would do without you. Thanks for holding me up


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Pony said:


> Is it that you believe she has so much to live for, or that you are terrified of living in a world without her?


I am terrified of living in a world without her...:Bawling:


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Minelson..I wish there was something that we could do to help Gretta. I guess if there's a Chrohns patient out there..maybe they could share what they are taking..then take Greta's weight and the person's weight and make a dose that is close. 

I really don't know how you believe. I believe that there is a heaven and it has animals as well as people in it. We have been here 14 years on this homestead. We knew that since we brought in the animals all at once, we would lose them that way too. My horse (27), dogs (20, 12, ?, ?) our 2 bottle baby pet boers (10 and 11), First milking does (12, 12, 10). Now Louise (Weezie) remains at 14 yrs and she is my best friend. It's hard. If I didn't believe that I would see them all again, I guess I'd be a real wreck and not own another animal.

You have the circle of life playing out in front of you. Greta and her "kids". Take comfort in knowing that you are not the only one that loses a precious being. And, that you have done all you can do for her. 

It's hard for humans to know when to say when. 

Thinking of you~


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Metronidazole (Flagyl) dosage: 500mg 3 times a day, for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Miprofloxacin (Cipro) dosage: 500mg given every 12 hours, for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Prednisone dosage: 2mg/kg of body weight, (NO MORE than 80 mg per day) divided into 3 doses per day (give at the same time as the Flagyl), for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Treatment with azathioprine (Imuran) cannot be started until Gretta's anemia is much better. However, the predmisone has immunosuppressant activities. To treat the anemia, use either the Replamin or the Red Cell. Replamin dose at 5cc orally for three days, and then again four days after, then dosed at twice weekly. If using Red Cell, dose at 3cc twice daily. The Replamin will be a bit easier on her system than the Red Cell, due to yeast buffers. However, she needs selenium, copper, and iron to build blood cells and until she shows massive improvement in the anemia, she is to be considered severely deficient in these minerals.

Due to the massive amounts of antibiotics that will be put into her system, she should be treated with either probiotic paste or live culture yogurt twice daily. Yes, the antibiotics will kill them off daily, which is why they will need to be replenished. 

Watch for drug allergies for the first three days of treatment, and evaluate progress weekly. Drug allergies will be very noticeable, and if you see them, let me know and we can adjust the drugs.

This is a very aggressive treatment plan, Min, and it needs to be strictly adhered to for the four weeks, and then she needs to be vet evaluated for signs of remission to determine if it needs to be extended another four weeks. If it needs to be extended, during the second four weeks, the prednisone dosage will need to be dropped to 1.5mg/kg of body weight administered every other day.

~hugs~ I love you. I hope this helps. I hope this puts her in remission.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

minelson said:


> i am terrified of living in a world without her...:bawling:


(((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> Metronidazole (Flagyl) dosage: 500mg 3 times a day, for 4 weeks. Given orally.
> 
> Miprofloxacin (Cipro) dosage: 500mg given every 12 hours, for 4 weeks. Given orally.
> 
> ...


This helps a TON. My boss is currently looking into purchasing what I need and getting prices. The dosage will help him with that too. Thank you so much Caliann!!!:goodjob:


----------



## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Curious, what is the weight of the goat that these dosages for? 
Newbie here and just reading to learn, I assume dosages are based on wieght?

Best of luck!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta weighed 57 lbs 2 weeks ago..I would bet she is down to 50 now.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

The Cipro is on order and should be in by Friday. It's not as expensive as I thought it would be. We have the Metro and Pred on hand. So I should be able to start the 4 week therapy on Friday. We can get the Azothiprine and that is $16 for 100 pills. Not too bad, but will wait to order when/if her anemia gets better.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Please excuse me for just barging in here...

First, I've been following along like others, just unsure of what to say. We are all pulling for you!

Second, this may have been discussed, and I've forgotten, but does Gretta eat yogurt easily? My two girls love a scoop of thick Greek style yogurt topped with granulated kelp powder. However, my old dog is not such a fan, so I bake mini muffins and fill them with raw yogurt after they have cooled. Just some ideas to toss out there...


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> Please excuse me for just barging in here...
> 
> First, I've been following along like others, just unsure of what to say. We are all pulling for you!
> 
> Second, this may have been discussed, and I've forgotten, but does Gretta eat yogurt easily? My two girls love a scoop of thick Greek style yogurt topped with granulated kelp powder. However, my old dog is not such a fan, so I bake mini muffins and fill them with raw yogurt after they have cooled. Just some ideas to toss out there...


She doesn't eat it but I have been drenching her with it. Sometimes I use the probiotics sometimes I use the yogurt. I will get some of that Greek yogurt for her. Thanks!


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Have you considered/researched virgin coconut oil? I use it daily for myself, and treat my dogs with it from time to time.It reversed a rather nasty and lengthy bout of gastroenteritis in me. I had a family member with crohn's recommend it to me. 

Since you are drenching her anyway, it would be easy enough to add. 

Just something else to consider.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> Have you considered/researched virgin coconut oil? I use it daily for myself, and treat my dogs with it from time to time.It reversed a rather nasty and lengthy bout of gastroenteritis in me. I had a family member with crohn's recommend it to me.
> 
> Since you are drenching her anyway, it would be easy enough to add.
> 
> Just something else to consider.


I wonder how much of a dose that would be...thank you!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Calliann, Please bare with me. I am questioning the Replamin dosage. 5 cc's for such a small goat? I know that is the dosage for standard goats but just wondering if Gretta should get that much. Thoughts? THANK YOU. She is doing good tonight. She seems to really like her polartec jammies even though it's not as cold now. She ate 2 handfuls of oats tonight. I'm headed out now to give her some raisins. 
I also got an email from the Johnes website. He said that there is no cure and she is suffering and (as hard as it is) I should put her down. I sure wish she could tell me how hungry she is. I wish I knew if she is suffering. Sometimes I think I should put her down just to end my suffering watching her fade away. Really, it is just so heartbreaking to see the feisty, Johova witness attacker, protector of all the acreage so small and weak. She is still VERY anemic. I am going the Replamin route instead of red cell to help with that. 
With giving antibiotics 3 times a day I'm a bit confused of when to give the probiotics.
I look at her and ask her..would you rather be in heaven??? Are you ready to go? And she just looks at me with those big eyes that are bigger than ever from the weight loss and all I get is that she wants to eat. >sigh< I just don't know. And what angers me the most is that I am used to this! I help people every day with letting go of their loved ones. I get angry at the people that put their pets through hell when it's so obvious that it's time to let them go. I really don't want to do that but I don't trust my judgement at all. I typed this in a PM to you Calianne but I decided to put it on the thread so it might help anyone in this same position now or in the future. I really think this goat forum is important for learning...If I can give anything back to all that are helping me it is to be honest and open about what is going here.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I think the virgin coconut oil would be a great thing to add to her drenches during treatment.  Coconut oil starts breaking down in the mouth, with saliva, and is absorbed quickly, in the stomach (or stomachs, as the case may be) rather than having to wait to get into the intestines (which Gretta's are compromised right now) to be absorbed. Whether or not it has any medical effect is moot, it is a fat that will get into her system from her stomachs, which are working fine, and Gretta desperately needs nutrition. If it has a medical benefit, that is great. If all it does is get calories into her bloodstream, that is good enough!


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I would normally suggest 2 or 3 cc of Replamin for small goats....but Gretta is so anemic and needs the minerals so badly, that I gave a heavier dosage until the anemia improves.

~sighs heavily~ I don't know Min. The latest studies show that Johne's Disease and Crohn's disease are the same thing, caused by the same critter, with relatively the same symptoms. (Unlike sheep and goats, humans tend to get the bowel problems...does than mean we're more like cows?) The treatment plan I have given you is based on Crohn's Disease...however, the treatment was tested on animals with Johne's before it was ever tested on humans with Crohn's. It was effective in animals with Johne's before they ever tried it for effectiveness in humans.

But other than the studies and testing trials for medications intended for human end-users, no one has tried to force remission or cure Johne's in livestock. There isn't a market for it. Unless it is easy and cheap, the commercial Dairy Industry isn't even going to TRY to cure it. They will instead brush it under the rug in hopes of not facing a major culling event or crash due to population panic. (And the masses WILL panic once it is considered common knowledge that the paratuberculosis bacteria are resistant and tolerant of current pasteurization practices.)

I am willing to try with you if that is what you deem the proper course.

I am willing to hold you, in spirit, while you mourn if you decide that Heaven is the place for her to be.

But, unfortunately, I cannot take the burden of this decision from your shoulders. I wish I could make it easier.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I agree, even if it's nothing but calories, it'll help. I personally use 1-2 tbsp per day, more if I feel the need. 

(((hugs))) Choices are hard, and only you can make them. We are here to listen.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

That makes sense. I just wanted to make sure that you were giving the replamin dose based on a mini goat. I'm still reeling from when there was talk about selenium and copper over dosing. We all know now that that is not is what is Gretta's problem. 
I have not gotten any signals for "her" that it is time to quit. she is one tough cookie...that is what I love about her  
What astounds me is all the stories here when goat owners find their goats dead out of the blue...It's amazing to me that she is still alive. She has gone through so much and just keeps on going. Her gut has got to be trashed. All the anitbiotics when I thought it was an internal abcess or teeth problems. This has been going on since May. I remember asking people at the goat expo I went to about weight loss in goats. All the vets that looked in her mouth for teeth problems. Taking her from here to there trying to figure it out. You and Cliff made me test for Johnes. I never dreamed that would be the culprit. Now I am in thick of it. and it sucks. But we will be ok... I just don't want her to suffer and today I don't think she is. One day at a time


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

One day at a time is all we can do.

I like to believe there is a reason for everything. Not in the ego-centric way that everything that happens to me is for some unforeseen benefit to me....but that it does all happen for a reason. Sometimes so I can learn a lesson that I need to learn, sometimes so someone else can learn a lesson that they need to learn. Sometimes because someone or something just needs to be helped. It is all for a reason.

Gretta is still here for a reason.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Minelson said:


> I am terrified of living in a world without her...:Bawling:


Yeah... <patting Michele on the back> 

... yeah... 

<3


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thank you


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have always found (have put down two horses and three dogs) that I agonized about it but when the animal had made the choice, it became perfectly clear. So now I operate under that principle- when the animal has stopped enjoying what was always dear to them, then it is time. And I now wait for that time without so much stress.

You are in touch with her and will know.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Just dropping in to let you know you and Gretta are in my thoughts.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Just got back from picking up 10 more bales of the Super Alfalfa for Gretta. Learned a little more about the guy selling it. He is really into organics and healthy stuff. He said the hay I am getting has the highest possible nutrients and protein that they ever had. They used micro nutrients on this cutting. I don't know what that means but it sounds good to me! I also stopped and picked up some coconut oil. Gretta seems to be doing very good today.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Go Gretta.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Micro nutrients used during the growing of the alfalfa should mean that the trace minerals and such will be a little higher in the hay. A good thing. 

Did you find virgin coconut oil?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> Micro nutrients used during the growing of the alfalfa should mean that the trace minerals and such will be a little higher in the hay. A good thing.
> 
> Did you find virgin coconut oil?


No! I got All Naturral LouAna Pure coconut oil. Is that the wrong stuff? :smack


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

And I forgot the Greek Yogurt..double smack!!:smack:smack


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

It'll add calories, but it's not anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal like raw virgin coconut oil is. I'm not sure how hard it'll be for you to find...most whole food or natural food stores carry it. Have a trader joes nearby? Otherwise, maybe you'd have better luck ordering from amazon or another online retailer.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Aww Jeez Michelle. Words escape me. I'm done crying for now so hopefully I can type something coherent. And I'm sorry but I don't think I'll have much of a sense of humor about this.

You are getting so much good advice here. I second or third the coconut oil. It does have to be raw virgin coconut oil. I think Costco now sells a decent one. Its Nutiva brand, I think. If you have a health food store near you they'll hook you up too. I use Wilderness Family brand. I use it for everything and my goats try to eat it out of the jar. 

My other suggestion would be kefir instead of yogurt. Kefir has so many more beneficial bacteria than yogurt. There is milk and water kefir. Water kefir would probably be accepted by her better. You can add her prunes to it so its prune flavored. Here is a place that sells it and has info on it Composition of Water Kefir Grains: Bacteria and Yeasts and another REALLY in-depth one Dom's About Kefir in-site . 

My son has been having a lot of bowel problems. He went in for a colonoscopy recently. He's 20. He has early stage problems that the dr said could probably be controlled by diet. He's doing the coconut oil and kefir. He's doing some other things that wouldn't be suitable for a goat such as bone broths. I do have to wonder if gelatin would help her? It helps troubled bowels. I know its hooves and hides etc but there doesn't seem to be a lot to lose here. Just a thought. 

Another thing that my son said helps immensely is licorice root. Health Benefits of Licorice Root I have some root pieces and he swallows a few like pills everyday. None of this helps overnight though. It would be for more long term. You could get some tea blends for stomach ailments at the grocery store that have licorice in there. Just check the label. She may eat the tea bag contents without having to make tea.

I'm just throwing stuff out there. Everyone has been giving you great advice. I'm sure everyone has said all of this already because the people here are smart and are fueled by a deep love for you and Gretta.

Tell me what I can do to help. I have a ton of licorice root. I would be happy to send you some to try. I dropped my kefir grain container last week and shattered the jar so I had to buy new ones or I'd send you some. I also have a book called Patient Heal Thyself. I ordered one to help with my son and found another at the thrift store. The man who wrote it had Crohns and he talks about his struggle with it and some of his research. He's a doctor now. He has a company that sells health products. He plugs his but also tells you other good brands etc. The main thing he stresses is rebuilding your gut flora. Anyways, if you want I can send you my extra copy. If you're interested in looking at herbs and natural supplements for Gretta I would be happy to research what I can. 

As for quality of life, my only suggestion is to pick 3 things that Gretta still enjoys doing now. When she won't or can't do those things anymore then maybe its her time. Whatever decision you make its the right one because it is yours. Any decision you make will be made out of love. 

I said a while back that when I die I want to come back as one of your critters. I still do Sweetie. You are such a good mom to all of your babies. I would rather have a shorter life with someone like you whose heart overflows with love than a longer life elsewhere. 

DH also wants me to tell you that he's sorry he didn't fix my computer earlier. I feel terrible because you were there for me when Ali was born and I was panicking. I won't let him live this down for quite a while. He is being my slave today as penance. 

I am so sorry you're going through this. Let me know how I can help. I'm sending you all so much big love, prayers, good vibes and Reiki.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks andabigmac. I am just so happy that it was computer problems and not something else! 
The licorice root sounds like some good stuff...for me! It does say not to use with steroids and Gretta is on Prednisone. I will have to order the right coconut oil and I will do that. Also, I have Kefir in the freeezer but it's the milk kind. Should I order the water kind from the website you posted? 
Gretta is doing really good today. She is happy and running around with the others with her little polertech jammies on.  
I am planning on starting the intense antibiotic treatment that Calianne found for me...but I am getting cold feet about that. I'm scared of messing up her rumen too much. So I'm chewing on that today. 
Can you reccomend a good place to order some of that licorice root tea? 
Just having you back is help enough


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Kefir is a great idea, and culturing your own is simple and would save you a fair bit over having to buy yogurt all the time, especially if you do decide to go with the long course of antibiotics and such. Both kefir and coconut oil are also very soothing to the GI tract.


----------



## Lovin' FarmLife (Sep 14, 2009)

where I want to said:


> I have always found (have put down two horses and three dogs) that I agonized about it but when the animal had made the choice, it became perfectly clear. So now I operate under that principle- when the animal has stopped enjoying what was always dear to them, then it is time. And I now wait for that time without so much stress.
> 
> You are in touch with her and will know.


I so agree with this statement and have experienced it.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm on the Wilderness Family website and confused about which coconut oil to get..Centerfuged or pressed??


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Michelle, I order from here Search - coconut oil - iHerb.com and let me tell ya...it was speedy shipping  . They have several different coconut oils listed and licorice root tea  AND kefir water


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Jyllie63 said:


> Michelle, I order from here Search - coconut oil - iHerb.com and let me tell ya...it was speedy shipping  . They have several different coconut oils listed and licorice root tea  AND kefir water


Perfect Thanks!!!!


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

I've heard mixed things about the use of licorice root. Mostly I've heard that small doses like my son takes are okay for long term use and with conventional meds. He takes two pieces the size of peas. He weighs about 200lbs. It doesn't take a lot for it to help. Unfortunately most people get the impression that because its natural they should take bunches of it. Small amounts are usually all that is needed for help with a chronic disorder. I'm doing some more research and I'll see if I can throw something together if for nothing else to stimulate her appetite and calm her guts. My mind has already been reeling with herbal possibilities. You could try feeding her comfrey and yarrow for instance. Comfrey Root Salves & Oils Benefits Herb Yarrow Benefits & Information I would need to look into their side effects to see if they would react to anything she's taking though. 

I've been looking at Johnes and Crohns and herbal helps. I've found a few interesting websites. Colorado State University did an interesting study on Boswellia for chronic bowel issues. It's a bunch of confusing scientific jargon but there is a bit of English thrown in for people like me. Here's the website of the study http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/articlespdf/benefits of boswellia.pdf 

I've been looking up more about Boswellia and I haven't been able to find any drug contradictions. Here is another study with an herbal regimen for Crohns. Using Herbs and Diet to Beat Crohn's Disease - Health News - redOrbit None of the herbs in this study are too expensive. Maybe with the strict antibiotic regimen she'll have it can become manageable at which point the herbs can be used for maintenance. I haven't really been looking too much at a cure just for symptom relief. I've been looking at the antibiotic regimen Calliann discussed. That sounds really promising. I'm a huge believer that conventional and herbal medicines can work together. Everything I've read today says that there is no quick fix for Johnes or Crohns. All of the studies I've read today about conventional and herbal treatments show results over periods of months and years. As for messing up her rumen, in the grand scheme of things her guts sound like they're a train wreck already. I would concentrate on getting her condition manageable then you can work on getting her healthy.

As for the kefir, I was thinking the water kefir would be more palatable. My goaties love it. They love the milk kefir though too. I would just keep trying to get raw, living foods down her. I would stay away from dairy although it would provide some much needed calories.

As for the tea, I've been trying to find one where all of the ingredients were safe. I found one. Traditional Medicinals sells one called Organic Throat Coat. Its ingredients are:

Organic Licorice Root (PhEur) 760 mg *

Organic Slippery Elm Bark (USP) 80 mg *

Organic Licorice Root Dry Aqueous Extract 60 mg *

Organic Marshmallow Root (PhEur) 60 mg *

Proprietary Blend: 1,040 mg

Organic Wild Cherry Bark (BHP) *

Organic Bitter Fennel Fruit (PhEur) *

Organic Cinnamon Bark (JP) *

Organic Sweet Orange Peel * 

My only issue with this is it may become cost prohibitive. She would need to probably need to be on it for a bit before it really helped. I would try to find a way to replicate it buying bulk herbs and mixing them yourself. How are her kidneys and liver? This may cause some issues if she's on it for a while because of the wild cherry bark. I would copy this, take out the cherry bark and add some peppermint and boswellia and go from there if it were me. If you google all of these things along with crohns they are all helpful. 

I'll keep looking and researching if this is something you're willing to try.

I just reread this and my thoughts are all over the place. Sorry about that. I guess I'm thinking out loud. If something sounds interesting but I muddled it up I will try to clear it up. Just let me know.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

andabigmac, according to the tests, her kidneys and liver are functioning well.

Can you put together an herbal treatment plan to go with the antibiotics and steroid? The aggressive plan it to wipe out the paratuberculosis bacteria, which is a sneaky, skulking thing, along with calming the inflammation and suppressing her immune system...not completely, but enough so it doesn't make any more colonies in her intestines.

What is needed is a treatment plan that will replenish the gut flora on a multi daily basis, and sooth that rough intestine so it can heal. What I *don't* know about herbal remedies will fill volumes, but you know plenty. If you can figure out a daily plan, with recipes, doses, etc., it would be such a blessing!

~hugs~


----------



## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm so sorry


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Let me read all of the posts again and formulate a plan. I'm thinking initially introducing one herb at a time would probably be the best. In her weakened state I would hate to bombard her system with too much at once. It would be easier to see if she reacted adversely to one thing rather than something in a blend. Hypothetically, if Slippery Elm makes her go off feed, for instance, we just stop that and try some marshmallow root. If she does well with the Marshmallow we add some Boswellia, etc. Most of the ones in my last post were pretty safe and gentle for a compromised intestinal tract. There are a lot of possibilities I didn't even mention too. Basically, there's hope here in making her comfortable. If she doesn't have a reaction to Jehovah Witnesses and Tinker flesh she will probably be okay with any of the aforementioned remedies.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

If anyone else has any ideas I would love to hear them. Brainstorming is fun.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

What about sauerkraut? Or any naturally fermented veggie short of Kim Chi which would probably tear her guts out. Is there any reason anyone could think of that a goat could not eat sauerkraut or the juice? I'm not talking a giant bowl here. Maybe just a tablespoon a day. It would probably help jump start some beneficial bacteria in her guts. The salt is the only drawback I can think of. Is Gretta staying hydrated? If she is then the salt levels would probably be fine. Can you get raw, live sauerkraut there? I can send you some if you want to try it. I'm thinking out loud here again. 

Ideas?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is drinking water...one of the side effects of the pred.  
You guys are awesome...I have to go to work for a few hours, I will re-read when I get home. I went to bed early last night and look at all the stuff I miss!
Part of the getting Gretta better/comfortable program is having me try to take better care of myself.


----------



## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about temporarily messing up her rumen with the antibiotics, that can be fixed. You need to do whatever you can do to get rid of the bacteria. Unless you can do that everything else is just a temporary help, not a fix. If it was me I'd get her on the antibiotics as fast as possible. That seems to me like her only long term chance. You have to keep your eye on the big picture.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

What about kombucha in very small amounts? Would the added easily absorbed b vitamins help?


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

They certainly wouldn't hurt. You can actually buy it pre-made so she wouldn't have to worry about dealing with the scoby. I don't know if she even lives near a health food store although it can be ordered online too. I'm worried that all of this will be overwhelming to Michelle. She probably already feels like a pharmacist.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I have all the anti-biotics and pred on hand now and will begin the treatment tomorrow. I will be home all weekend to watch for any allergic reactions. 
Off to take a nap. I am feeling overwhelmed. And bad day at work with a dog euthanization. I need to re-group before I can take on everything here. Katie sent me some goat coats and I have another one that I want to try on after alterations and take some pictures.


----------



## Strange Bear (May 13, 2002)

Would she take some Kefir?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Strange Bear said:


> Would she take some Kefir?


I'm working on that...going to order some water type since all I have is milk type. She won't take it but I'll make her.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Also..I don't live close to a health food store at all. 45miles is the closest city so I order everything online. I don't even know if there would be a good store in Sioux Falls that would have everything or if it would be fresh/good stuff. Now if I were back in Minneapolis I would know just where to go and have a gazzillion choices! It makes more sense for me to buy on line with the price of gas and the time it takes. One of the drawbacks of living in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

This is the only Coconut oil I could find at IHerb that says "raw" and "Virgin". They are out of stock until supposedly today. I'm having them email me when it's available. 
Artisana, 100% Organic Raw Coconut Oil, Extra Virgin, 16 fl oz (473 ml) - iHerb.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Amazon has coconut oil.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I find the best luck with amazon. 

I can only imagine how overwhelmed you must be. The yogurt or milk kefir plus coconut oil is a good place to start. Both yogurt and kefir offer beneficial bacteria, and the coconut oil adds easily digested calories and soothes. As you get a handle on that, and make it part of the routine, add in more. 

Does anyone know what "good" bacteria normally colonize a healthy goat? I did a little searching last night, but didn't have much luck.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Amazon takes forever to ship here...really, they are the worst. I don't know why..my sister uses them a lot in the cities and has good luck but it's really bad here...like 2 weeks or more sometimes! 
I have a question...Should I let Gretta eat as much as she wants when it comes to raisins or anything else I might offer her? I have it ingrained in my DNA to introduce slowly and too much of anything is a bad thing. If I let her, I bet she would eat a whole 1.5 lb of raisins. 
I'm going to take some pics of her tonight. It hasn't been that cold so I haven't used the coats that friends have sent me yet. The polertech is working nice but I need to wash it. She was cold though this morning. I had a realization...she does not jump up on anything anymore..so that's why she hasn't gone in the hut. So I put a ramp up in there today. They love it. But I feel bad that I didn't realize until now that she does not have the energy to jump up on stuff anymore 
Hubby needs attention...gotta run!


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

I would watch and make sure she doesn't get the runs from eating too many. How many raisins is she getting right now? They have anti-inflamatory compounds which would maybe ease her intestinal lining but she would probably have to eat a ton of them to see the benefits. Too many can have a laxative effect so if the meds stop her up, up her raisin quota. If she gets too loose I'd lay off of them.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

So far perfectly normal berries. I have been giving her about 6 full handfuls a day. I'm guessing. When I give her saltines she eats bout 3 then stops. Whole oats maybe 2 small handful and she stops. She likes prunes too...would those be better than raisins?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

pics!
Gretta with the fancy coat that Backfourty mom made 


















Gray-C had to try it on!


















The war zone..


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Such cuteness! 

Again, I'm sorry if this has been covered, but what about a heat lamp? My dogs love them.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

You can see it in their stall here...
The only way I will use it ifs if it gets to 20 below and then I shall sleep out there. It is an expensive, safety mega, Premier1 heat lamp. But ALL my hay and shavings are in there and ALL my babies are in there and my good friend just lost SO MUCH to a fire. Very paranoid to say the least. But if we get hit with a blizzard I'm prepared. But will not leave it unattended.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I can understand.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Seems like a foal blanket should fit a ND. I know I have one around here somewhere that I use for my great dane while camping. If I can find it, I'll try it on one of my girls...might be overkill, but golly they sure stay on nice.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Those pictures are too cute! I can't believe how big Gray-C is getting. 

I don't see why she couldn't have both raisins and prunes. They both have a lot of health benefits. I really like the anti-inflamatory properties due to the resveratrol in the raisins though.


----------



## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

Might try apples too. If she'll only eat fruit apples have alot of fiber and pectin.


----------



## mahnah (May 29, 2012)

Love the pics


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Well the first dose of the anti-biotic program didn't go as well as I would have liked. I crushed up the pills and made a drench with the Dyne and some yogurt. It got all gunked up in the syringe. I don't know if it's becasue of not enough liquid or if I need to let it dissolve more. I used a 20 cc syringe. I know that Metro tastes horrible for dogs. I want to make all this drenching as comfortable as possible for her. I thought about putting the pills in a prune but I'm afraid that would fail and then she wouldn't eat prunes anymore.


----------



## wiscgoat (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi - I wanted to let everyone know that I have added a few more posts to the Johne's blog. Mostly Q&A I received from readers

myjohnesproject.blogspot.com


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Maybe it would go better if you dissolved the crushed pills in water, then added something for flavor? Perhaps molasses? Probably wouldn't be strong enough to overpower the nasty taste of the pills, but it would cut it some. 

Giving antibiotics at the same time as the yogurt will negate any benefit of the live cultures in the yogurt. I'm not sure how fast a goat processes things, but I know with a human or a dog you give live cultures at least two hours after the antibiotics. Is that possible in this case?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> Maybe it would go better if you dissolved the crushed pills in water, then added something for flavor? Perhaps molasses? Probably wouldn't be strong enough to overpower the nasty taste of the pills, but it would cut it some.
> 
> Giving antibiotics at the same time as the yogurt will negate any benefit of the live cultures in the yogurt. I'm not sure how fast a goat processes things, but I know with a human or a dog you give live cultures at least two hours after the antibiotics. Is that possible in this case?


Yes I know she wasn't going to get anything good out of the yogurt. I did just learn that though from when she was on the tetracycline. 
It is VERY helpful to know about the 2 hours...I was wondering how long so thank you. It's hard juggling all of this. 
I will try dissolving in water and see if that works. Thank you!


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Try a longer dissolving time. You could try to do a couple of days in advance of the pills are that hard to dissolve. What about snow cone syrup? My girls would take battery acid if it was mixed with cherry or grape snow cone syrup.

Have you put any thought into trying some herbs? I'm thinking about Slippery Elm to start. If you want I could send you a week or so worth to try. That way if she reacts to something you wouldn't be stuck with a pound of it. I have everything I mentioned before except the Boswellia. Let me know. I'd love to help Gretta out.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I keep Slippery elm bark on hand.  Yes I do want to try herbs for soothing her stomach. I also want the water Keifer since I only have the milk kind. And the coconut oil. If I could narrow it down and mix the herbs in the drench somehow that would be helpful. Can you make a suggestion on dosing and which herbs would be the best? my head is spinning. Should I get that water keifer from that website you posted earlier? Or would getting it from I herb be good enough when they get the coconut oil in. What would you do if you were me??


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

And where the heck do you get sno cone syrup?


----------



## emanuelcs34 (Dec 5, 2007)

Minelson said:


> And where the heck do you get sno cone syrup?


I have seen some at our walmart....Not sure if it would be a seasonal thing though.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I wonder if the torani coffee syrups would work? Or, you can buy Lorann flavor oils and make your own.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta sporting another new goat coat. I ordered this one and was a bit disappointed with it. It's supposed to be winter/waterproof. It just doesn't seem like it will be warm enough for winter. And she would NEVER go out in the rain. But today is VERY windy and I think it's good for blocking wind. So in the winter I can put it on over her polertec. Katie, the one you sent me is out in the barn and when we head in for the night I'll see if it fits. Mamagoat61, the one you sent me will be really warm but I'm still working on alterations.  










It's kinda sliding to the side...do I have it on right?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I look at that picture with Frankie and see his scur that I have not dealt with. I Finally got Pony and Tinkers feet trimmed today. Gretta, Frankie and Flossie need their feet done too. My house is a mess....worse than usual. There is so much I want to research with the herbs. My cats all need deworming. My horses have been totally neglected. >sigh< I am starting to feel overwhelmed  I should be training Gray-C. I have about 10 bagillion fence clips I need to install on the new fence before winter. And then I also read 6 weeks until Christmas!! ugh...yes, overwhelmed.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

emanuelcs34 said:


> I have seen some at our walmart....Not sure if it would be a seasonal thing though.


What isle would it be in?


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Every time I've seen it in Walmart, it was near the small kitchen appliances...where they sell a snow cone machine.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Is your Slippery Elm in capsule form? If so, let's try 1 pill am and pm for 2 weeks. It will be tricky gauging if she has a reaction from it or whether it is caused by the heavy antibiotics. Children can take slippery elm. It won't interfere with her meds at all. Watch for skin rash, coughing, stool changes etc. Once again, it will be hard to gauge whether its the slippery elm or antibiotics. In 2 weeks we'll introduce Boswellia. I'm buying some for my son. I'll let you know how it goes.

I personally would give her water kefir. I've read a lot where milk upsets a lot of Crohns patients. I know that kefir eats the lactose so it's easily digested but until we get her into remission I think the water kefir would be a better bet. The coconut oil should replace the needed calories that the kefir had. I would stop the yogurt too when you get the water kefir. I would also try some sauerkraut or other fermented food. 

If you want to give her grains I would soak them 24 hours to get rid of the phytates in them which make them hard to digest. I would go easy on the grain too. I know you're not giving her a lot so hopefully by sprouting it will ease the strain on her intestines.

Another thing I'm wondering is if Chaffhaye would work well for her. Maybe you could order a sample for her. It sounds like it has a lot of beneficial bacteria in it. Maybe Crystal can chime in here. I've never used it. 


More work, huh? You know that this is all in addition to the antibiotics, right?


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Minelson, since I'm stuck on the couch this week nursing a knee, let me take a stab at making a dosing schedule...and then andabigmac and caliann can add to it or adjust it as needed. 

You have a lot going on. Take a deep breath and tackle one thing at a time. (((hugs)))





Metronidazole (Flagyl) dosage: 500mg 3 times a day, for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Miprofloxacin (Cipro) dosage: 500mg given every 12 hours, for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Prednisone dosage: 2mg/kg of body weight, (NO MORE than 80 mg per day) divided into 3 doses per day (give at the same time as the Flagyl), for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Slippery elm, twice a day with the probiotics

Coconut oil,(melting point is 76*)

Water kefir/yogurt/kefir/probios twice a day-

Dyne 

Soak grains to sprout. 




First round flagyl, cipro (assuming it can be given at the same time), and prednisone. Make into a liquid, add dyne and something to cut nasty taste of -meds. Follow with a handful of raisins.

Two hours later, a slurry of probiotic of choice, 1Tbsp of coconut oil, and slippery elm.-

Second round flagyl and prednisone ,-Make into a liquid, add dyne and something to cut nasty taste of -meds. Follow with a handful of raisins

Two hours later, a slurry of probiotic of choice, 1Tbsp of coconut oil.-

Third round of-flagyl, cipro (assuming it can be given at the same time), and prednisone. Make into a liquid, add dyne and something to cut nasty taste of -meds. Follow with a handful of raisins.

Last thing before bed, a slurry of probiotic of choice, 1Tbsp of coconut oil, and slippery elm.-

***instead of prolonged soaking of the pills, can a blender be used to make a slurry thin enough to drench? Would that effect the pills in a negative way?

****if time is an issue, drop the middle dose of probiotics


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> Minelson, since I'm stuck on the couch this week nursing a knee, let me take a stab at making a dosing schedule...and then andabigmac and caliann can add to it or adjust it as needed.
> 
> You have a lot going on. Take a deep breath and tackle one thing at a time. (((hugs)))
> 
> ...


Thank you .... :Bawling: I'm not bawling but there is no smiley for just tears in my eyes. 

I don't have a blender. My Slippery elm is powdered form. I use it to make dosage balls with ammonium chloride for Frankie and Pony. 

I have the Pred/Metro/Cipro soaking in water now for hopefully a better drench. The Dyne is like a syrup loaded with calories for weak animals...kinda like Nutracal but not as thick. I think the secret is to have the meds in enough liquid that I can shake it up right before drenching. 
My little trooper is still running up to me every time I walk out the door. Even with all the nasty drenching and goat coat experiments.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

andabigmac said:


> If you want to give her grains I would soak them 24 hours to get rid of the phytates in them which make them hard to digest. I would go easy on the grain too. I know you're not giving her a lot so hopefully by sprouting it will ease the strain on her intestines.


She will eat a couple small handfulls of whole oats...I'll start soaking some now.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

andabigmac said:


> Another thing I'm wondering is if Chaffhaye would work well for her. Maybe you could order a sample for her. It sounds like it has a lot of beneficial bacteria in it. Maybe Crystal can chime in here. I've never used it.


I contacted that company and asked for a quote to have it delivered here. There are no distributors in my area or even close. 
They have not gotten back to me. And that was awhile ago...


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Ah, ok. I forgot the dyne. I'll make some adjustments, and we need a weight or measurement on the slippery elm from andabigmac. 

She sure is a sweet goat. Pretty sure my girls wouldn't be quite as tolerant.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Aaack! I used the last of my Slippery Elm in my jar on dosage balls for the boys. I thought I had a whole lb of backstock but it's Kelp!! I am cursing loudly...I'm headed out to spend some time with my critters. after I soak the oats.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Thinking out loud here, but because the coconut oil is solid until 76*, I'm thinking it would be easier to load it into a BIG syringe and then warm it with your body and squirt in her mouth. Let me try some things here and I'll get back to you.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She ate about half the soaked oats and I was able to get about 1/2 tsp of slippery elm on them..but she didn't finish so she just got a trace. The meds went much better tonight. I let the crushed pills soak in water for a couple hours then shook it and put it in the syringe and topped it off with about a teaspoon of molasses. I am giving details for learning and adivice. I know molasses can be hard on the rumen..But I don't have any sno cone juice!


----------



## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

You need a pill crusher or a mortar and pestle for the pills. Crush them into fine powder then mix well in water and draw up in syringe. I've given many a people pill down small bore ng tubes and that's how it's done. Nothing gets clogged up that way. 

I wouldn't be giving her sugar. In people sugar suppresses the immune system. If you want to sweeten the drench use stevia.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Her new coat looks really nice & girly pink. They do slide a bit if they are not snug enough but sometimes they still slide anyways.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sparkie said:


> You need a pill crusher or a mortar and pestle for the pills. Crush them into fine powder then mix well in water and draw up in syringe. I've given many a people pill down small bore ng tubes and that's how it's done. Nothing gets clogged up that way.
> 
> I wouldn't be giving her sugar. In people sugar suppresses the immune system. If you want to sweeten the drench use stevia.


I do use a mortar and pestle. The time to dissolve in water will be trial and error. The only problem is the days that I work. I leave at 7:30 and get home between 1 and 2 pm. Mon/Wed/Fri


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Walmart sells Coconut oil if you got 1 close to you & they are the cheapest price but I also order it from Hoeggers & there shipping is pretty fast.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

This coat fits perfect Katie!  with room to put an extra layer underneath. Gretta likes it


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

It's heartbreaking how small she is....


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Backfourty said:


> Walmart sells Coconut oil if you got 1 close to you & they are the cheapest price but I also order it from Hoeggers & there shipping is pretty fast.


That is where I got the stuff that is wrong cuz it has to be "raw" and "virgin" LOL ! while I was typing that!
ound:ound:


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

I just opened a pill of something else and it was right around a half teaspoon. So a half teaspoon twice a day. Do you need me to send some to you? What about the sauerkraut? Have you given that any thought? You could strain the juice out and just give her that if she didn't want to eat the actual shreds. 

Sugar is bad for rumens but so is not getting her meds. They won't help if they're splattered on the ceiling or up your nose. Stevia's a good idea if she likes it. You could try grape juice concentrate too. If you can't get stevia or she doesn't like it or the juice concentrate I would get her into the groove of taking the meds and slowly cut back the amount of syrup until its not there. Will she not take a pill? What about one of those pill guns Crystal used for boluses. She'd probably hide from you if you started forcing things down her throat, huh.

She looks snazzy in her new coat.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Sparkie, we WANT her immune system repressed. Part of the problem with the disease is that her immune system is in over-drive. 

So yes, I am on board with the sno-cone syrup.

Barleyclown, I LIKE that schedule you have there. Looks perfect. And yes, the antibiotics and pred can be cocktailed.

Min, crushing them up in a mortar is no problem, None of them are time released, so it shouldn't be an issue. 

I am not great on herbal, but my grandmother always gave me peppermint tea to soothe my stomach during/after eating, and to help digestion. I do not know interactions with it, but perhaps a couple of drops of peppermint oil in that cocktail would make it less nasty and more palatable?


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Peppermint is iffy. Some people get severe reflux and acid from it. It was one I planned on introducing later. It's usually great for minor problems but long term problems like crohns, it can upset tummies.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Good news! Coconut oil in a wide tip syringe works much like paste wormer, if warmed in your armpit or other warm area (I used arm pit because my hands are never warm enough). I would love to make you up a handful to get you through this first part, until you get your order from iherb.-

Additionally, I do my own kombucha. I could tuck in a bottle and a starter, which you can just keep in the fridge until you feel like trying to do your own...or you ca throw it out if she doesn't like it. In your shoes, I'd add a healthy splash to a bucket of warm water and offer it along with their regular fresh water. It's not much different tasting than a weak form of apple cider vinegar, have you ever tried that in their water?-

From what I recall from my own reading and research on phytic acid, ruminant animals have no trouble with them, unlike us humans. I wouldn't bother soaking oats just for that purpose. However, there is merit to the whole fodder feeding theory...but I doubt you want to tackle a project of that magnitude right now.

-


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

This is where I wish I had more time to devote to learning goat physiology. I've heard that phytic acid can be broken down in ruminants also because they have the gut bacteria and necessary microorganisms to break them down. I figured, (possibly incorrectly) that between the Johnes and all of the meds she was on that her gut bacteria would be compromised and potentially unable to break them down properly. If it were me, I would err on the side of caution and soak her grain until her Johnes was under control. That's just me though. I don't soak my goat's grain here.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> That is where I got the stuff that is wrong cuz it has to be "raw" and "virgin" LOL ! while I was typing that!
> ound:ound:


Have you checked any health food stores that are in town by you?


----------



## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

andabigmac said:


> I just opened a pill of something else and it was right around a half teaspoon. So a half teaspoon twice a day. Do you need me to send some to you? What about the sauerkraut? Have you given that any thought? You could strain the juice out and just give her that if she didn't want to eat the actual shreds.
> 
> Sugar is bad for rumens but so is not getting her meds. They won't help if they're splattered on the ceiling or up your nose. Stevia's a good idea if she likes it. You could try grape juice concentrate too. If you can't get stevia or she doesn't like it or the juice concentrate I would get her into the groove of taking the meds and slowly cut back the amount of syrup until its not there. Will she not take a pill? What about one of those pill guns Crystal used for boluses. She'd probably hide from you if you started forcing things down her throat, huh.
> 
> She looks snazzy in her new coat.


She doesn't need to like the meds, they just need to get in her. They can be tubed in if needed, I've had to do that a few times. Usually though with littler goats like Gretta you can control them enough to make them swallow and not spit.

Sugar makes white blood cells sluggish. I've used stevia with cocci meds before and it did help with the gag factor.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Sparkie said:


> She doesn't need to like the meds, they just need to get in her. They can be tubed in if needed, I've had to do that a few times. Usually though with littler goats like Gretta you can control them enough to make them swallow and not spit.
> 
> Sugar makes white blood cells sluggish. I've used stevia with cocci meds before and it did help with the gag factor.


This is my attitude at home too. But my goats have never been on meds for any extended length of time. If it's someone I'm trying to tame I try to make it yummy so they don't associate me with something bitter and nasty (I'll save that for my ex). My older goats know that for every yuck they get there will be a banana slice to ease the pain. 

Gretta will be doing this for months. After a week or so of being held and force fed she may not let herself be caught. 

Some other other options Michelle could try are applesauce. If I drench my horses with something I fill the first part of the drench gun with the yuck and fill the rest up with the sauce so it only hurts for a second. The other is apple or white grape juice concentrate (which won't stain your face with purple splatters). Just scoop some of the frozen concentrate out and spoon it into the drench gun behind the meds. You could also puree those raisins or prunes that she loves up and put them behind the meds. You could also try just making a peanut butter foldover sandwich and put the pills in whole. I only have a few goats that won't eat these. Most of them don't even chew them. I don't know if peanut butter is something Gretta will eat though. 

I would just do whatever works for now though and as she feels better maybe her palate will expand so you'll have more options.

Are you using something like this Michelle Dosing Syringe - 20cc Cotran (Needles Syringes - Drenching) or just a syringe? Dosing guns are the way to go.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

andabigmac said:


> Are you using something like this Michelle Dosing Syringe - 20cc Cotran (Needles Syringes - Drenching) or just a syringe? Dosing guns are the way to go.


No! I'm using a regular syringe. I had one of these on my birthday list and didn't get one  But I did get new hoof trimmers 
I just got an order from them too, but I will order one next time.


----------



## iloveafarmer (Feb 23, 2008)

What about hiding a pill in a prune?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

iloveafarmer said:


> What about hiding a pill in a prune?


I thought of that but I'm afraid it will turn her off on eating them then and there is so little that she will eat. She is a chewer, not an inhaler anymore.


----------



## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

Another good pill mixer is applesauce. I dissolve pills in just enough water to get past the paste stage, then mix with applesauce. It's a good consistency to draw up in a syringe then. Been there-done that with having pills form an unmovable glop in the syringe. 

Anita from Idaho
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
www.gndt.net/dan-ani


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

I had a horse who wouldn't take her wormer for anything. I used an empty tube and filled it with applesauce or molasses and took her a treat a few times a day. One day I did the wormer with the applesauce chaser. She had a weird look in her eye for about a second but finished sucking it down. She takes her wormer like a champ now. Maybe you could try that with Gretta. She will probably suck the good coconut oil out of the syringe like Barleychown said too because the raw stuff is yummy. You may be able to use that as a treat.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Hubby is going to the store for some applesauce and white grape juice concentrate. 

Gretta is not eating raisins or prunes today  She spits them out.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown is going to a health food store today and picking up stuff for me and sending out tomorrow


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is not grazing today either  She is not doing very good today. Now I have to go out and drench her again with the metro. I am doing the Pred 2 times a day instead of 3.... AM/PM because that is how I was doing it already. 
I do have applesauce and grape juice now. Hopefully she will fall in love with that. 
I think the mega doses of antibiotics is giving her a tummy ache.  
I'm keeping a close eye on her AND my horse Joey who was showing signs of colic this morning.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Just to give you an idea of the amount of powdered meds she is getting twice a day. Plus one big Metro500 pill crushed up for lunch. 
the pile is on a 5.5 X 3.5 card stock


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Is there anything I can give her tonight? Malox, petpto(she would hate that) Zantac? Hubby has all sorts of stomach meds. I really do think she has a stomach ache


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Would a tums work? I just got done reading about 3 pages worth. There are some wonderful people on this board!

Gretta has more coats than I do 

I have some slippery elm bark that I don't use. It is 2-3 years old though...been in a ziploc baggie (from Molly's). It doesn't smell bad so I assume it should still be ok. If you want it until you can get some ordered I'll be glad to send it to you.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sigh of relief. Everyone, including Gretta, is out grazing the pastures. Gretta is way out! I took her coat off...I wonder if maybe I should have taken it off earlier. She has bald spots going down her spine that I think might get really. cold...but maybe she needed to breathe


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is still in a snit. The crushed up pills are going down much better with apple sauce. Plus I'm finding the less amount in the syringe the better. So I have to find the perfect balance of water and crushed pills that will be enough to syringe and not too much to freak her out. I put her polar fleece back on and she seemed to welcome it even going over her head and horns and letting me pick up her feet and put them through the arm holes. She was very cooperative. 
Just being honest here...I have fears that this might end up being too miserable for her. Just saying what is going through my mind. But one day at a time. thank God it's not really cold yet. She is a good sport but I'm pushing her and hopefully it will get easier and not worse. The apple sauce did help though. My sweet Gretta. Please tell me if I'm taking this too far. She was grazing today, but she is acting different. Spitting out the raisins and prunes. Suspicious of me every time I approach. I gave her a long massage and she seemed to like that. 
rambling. tired. dirty. discouraged.


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I know you are confused, but so is Gretta  . What you have been doing so far is working. The medicine she is taking I'm sure makes her appetite change which is why something tastes good one day and not the next. And let me tell ya....my human kids act suspicious if they see me coming at them with medicine! It's totally normal and if this puts her into remission then it will all be worth it. Just take these next few weeks with a "one day at a time" attitude and hopefully it won't seem so overwhelming. You are doing this FOR Gretta...not TO her. You ARE doing the right thing for her at this time...I have no doubt about that!


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Min, my son was 8 years old when he was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes. Believe me when I say that catching him for those insulin shots was calorie-burning, to say the least. But it had to be done, to save his life. At the time, though, he didn't understand why I was torturing him by poking him with needles several times every day.

Gretta doesn't understand either, and there is no way to explain it to her so that she *does* understand. But YOU know. If she COULD be made to understand, what choice do you think the Bane of Jehovah's Witnesses would make? Would she chose to let the disease take its toll and go silently into the night? Or would she chose to gobble down medicines and fight it out until the very end?

If she could understand why, you know she would love you for it.


----------



## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Remember Michelle that metronidazole leaves a nasty metallic taste in your mouth so to her nothing tastes like it smells. Imagine the frustration if you are just dying for a piece of chocolate and then you eat it and it tastes like rust. You'd be leary about eating another piece. I can imagine why she doesn't want her favorite foods.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is not eating anything today...not even alfalfa. I tried using the pill gun with the Metro and that was not any better. She is groaning now


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She ate 3/4 of an apple that I cut up. Now she is laying in the sun and everyone else is out grazing.


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Oh no


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Jyllie63 said:


> Would a tums work? I just got done reading about 3 pages worth. There are some wonderful people on this board!
> 
> Gretta has more coats than I do
> 
> I have some slippery elm bark that I don't use. It is 2-3 years old though...been in a ziploc baggie (from Molly's). It doesn't smell bad so I assume it should still be ok. If you want it until you can get some ordered I'll be glad to send it to you.


Jilly thank you so much. I have some on the way, it should be here by Wed. Barleychown went shopping for me yesterday  
I love you all so much!


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I just remembered, when one of my girls had pneumonia and wasn't much into eating I clipped some evergreen boughs for her and she nibbled them and continued on to eating hay...maybe the strong taste of them would entice Gretta?


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

Is she warm or cold? Eyelids pink? Hydrated? 

I'm not an antibiotic expert but it sounds like you've hit her with both barrels. She could be having some big die-off issues that are making her feel puny. Or like Kris said, everything just tastes yucky. Maybe she needs to get used to the metallic taste in her mouth before she'll eat. Is she drinking at all? Will she eat if its drenched in? What about feeding her something different than she's eaten before or she hasn't had in a long time? Have you tried bananas? Rice? My girls love canned or dried peaches. I'm grasping here.

Maybe she just needs some time to let her guts work themselves out. It's hard to see her not eat when she's already lost so much weight, I bet. Goats don't understand the whole, "You'll feel better if you eat something", concept. I would force the coconut oil and anything probiotic down her throat and her pills, of course. Maybe if you could get a little something that would coat her belly down her she would feel up to eating some hay. Once again. grasping...


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is drinking and not dehydrated. Her eyelids are pale and have been from being so anemic. She feels normal temp wise but she started shivering this morning after I drenched her. She hates it so much and gags and opens and closes her mouth and acts like I just gave her battery acid. I did the dose with applesauce this morning. I'll try the grape juice tonight.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Someone on facebook suggested Thiamine. Should I start her back up on that?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is eating...even nibbled on some grass hay. I gave her some bread and she chewed it and spit it out. Tried raisins again and she did eat some. She is eating the alfalfa. I hate to go out there and drench her and ruin it. Plus she is due for Replamin today and she hates that. What about thiamine? Should I put that in the mix? I tasted the meds with the grape juice and Man O Man is it horrible. Worse than cocci meds


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I have no idea on the thiamine, but maybe if you chased the meds with another drench of just goodies? Molasses and coconut oil, warmed enough to liquefy the oil?


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm not sure if this would help, but I'll throw it out there. When I need to take my grapefruit seed extract (it is some NASTY stuff), the only thing that disguises the taste is orange juice. I seriously can't taste it when I use the OJ. I use OJ alot when I give my goats oral meds and they love it!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Now I'm ----ed. If "they" can clone sheep, why can't "they" make antibiotics that don't taste like poison.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

:Bawling: Ok...that's it we are done. No more. I will keep her on the pred but that is it. I can't do this anymore. I gave her the meds with the grapejuice. I tasted it first and it is so horrible that no one should have to eat this. I can't do this to her anymore. :Bawling: We are done. I want her to be happy and I can accept that she is dying but I just cannot do this to her anymore. And I haven't even given her the probiotics and replamin yet tonight. Her quality of life has gone way down because of this. I can't put her through this :Bawling:
Yes...I am having another meltdown :Bawling: I never thought these drugs would be so hard on her. She takes it and then rubs her face on the wall and cries. My boss said today that it will take at least 2 weeks before I see any improvement. I just can't keep this up that long. It's too many doses. and just to horrible for her :Bawling::Bawling: I'm sorry but I just can't keep doing this to her.


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

(((hugs))) I wish I could give you a hug in person


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

And what makes it worse is that now I feel like I'm giving up her....But I'm not. It's like when my brother was on life support and we had to pull the plug becuz we knew he would not want this. And the chances of this working are so slim. I'm thinking it would be best just to make it as easy on her as possible until it's time to say good bye :Bawling::Bawling::Bawling:


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Can you give her any of the medicine in a treat? I don't know if some of it is pills that you are crushing up...maybe put it in a peanut butter sandwich. For now maybe it is best for YOU and Gretta to discontinue the drenches. Let her enjoy some normalcy and if you can give her any of the meds another way I would suggest to continue the ones you can. You will still feel like you are NOT giving up on her and she won't dread the drenches.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Jyllie63 said:


> Can you give her any of the medicine in a treat? I don't know if some of it is pills that you are crushing up...maybe put it in a peanut butter sandwich. For now maybe it is best for YOU and Gretta to discontinue the drenches. Let her enjoy some normalcy and if you can give her any of the meds another way I would suggest to continue the ones you can. You will still feel like you are NOT giving up on her and she won't dread the drenches.


Jilly, she is suspicious of everything now. No treats work at all even if there is no medicine in them. I'm just trying to follow directions and it's killing us :Bawling::Bawling:


----------



## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

minelson
Been watching your trial here. Sometimes a person has to just know when to just quit. If all you are doing to for her is making the life she has miserable then perhaps the right thing is to stop!
I dont know if you remember the baby buck I had. My first baby in about 10 years. I was out there when he was born. I rubbed and rubbed him for a couple hours,. He just wouldn't get jump started. I helped him nurse, kept him warm. Soon it became apparent he had a very weak leg. I taped his leg very carefully..wrapping it in gauze first then a brace. I checked it several times a day, Held him up to momma every few hours to nurse.I went beyond and above. He started getting around and I took off th brace. Stil had a lil flop to his foot so did a little vet wrap in a strip. 
I had meant to go back out and retape him more carefully but forgot. I forgot about his foot for several days. When I did check it..I had killed his little foot. I had stopped the circulation...it was horrid. I brought him to the vet..had his leg amputated and brought him back home. I felt badly for him all alone so after he was getting around better I put him with mom, and then a wek later the other does. . I watched carefully and everyting appeared fine. Came back an hour later and he couldnt walk at all. took him to the vet again and the other goats had shattered his hip. That was enough..I had him put down and cremated.
Looking back,,,I think I over did the complete thing. I should have put him down as soon as his leg was a problem. What did I put the poor little thing through in his short life because of my inability to not do EVERYTHING I could possibly do.I have learnt a valuablel esson.You can fight as hard as you can..but at some point it may be better to accept. At least better for the critter. Thinking of you. Lori


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I would give her a day or two to trust you again, then bring out treats for everyone. Just make sure hers has some meds in it  . I'm sure her taste buds are wacked out right now and she just needs to have a break from the drench (YOU need a break from it too). Once she feels better I have a feeling she will start taking treats again.


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Michelle, I was just thinking about how hard this is for you and how we lost 2 of our pet dogs within 4 months of each other. With the one we lost in October, I was hoping to not have to make the decision for her to pass on. I thought to myself would I be making this decision because it's easier and best for her or because it was best for me. It is EXHAUSTING taking care of a sick pet. I wasn't fighting to keep her alive as I knew she was terminal. I was fighting to keep her as happy as she could be. The day she passed away I was 100% sure it was her time to go...I had no doubts. As long as you have doubt about what is right then keeping Gretta alive is the choice you have to make.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

One day at a time.....this is a bad one. I feel that if I stop this treatment I will not regret it . That is how bad it is on her. She is living a life in fear of me approaching her with a drench or needle that will hurt her. She has a horrible disease. It is incurable. She is starving but cannot eat because it either has nasty medicine in ti or it hurts.


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Michelle honestly I would say she is coming to the end of her journey. If her life is going to be full of meds every few hours and hating everything along side everything else she is going through if it was my girl I would say I am done as well. 

With my boy I could have tried to keep him around longer but it would have been at his expense not mine and he would be the one suffering. I couldn't do it, in my heart I knew I couldn't let him suffer. His quality of life was almost gone, he wasn't hardly ever happy and if he did eat he would more often than not throw it up. His heart was giving out and he was old and tired and I knew I had to say good bye. I think Gretta is reaching that from what I read in your posts, but I am not there and you know her well. That is totally just my opinion and yes there will be hard days. 

But my thought is her days won't get better but worse as this disease carries on. I keep saying it but I will say it again. YOU know your girl, you will know when she is ready to go. (((((hugs))))) I am so sorry I haven't gotten your package in the mail. It has been hectic and honestly it has slipped my mind a few times, I have a few things I still need to pick up for it and I keep forgetting them.

Justine


----------



## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Oh I'm so sorry.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I understand.

When my precious Kismet had lung cancer, I was frantic for her. I gave her her medicine religiously - until the day that she saw me coming and crawled into her carrier to hide from me, and her son stationed himself in front of the door and pawed at my hand so I wouldn't reach for her.

And I sat down on the floor and bawled. Then I threw the medicine away and they both came to me. That night Kismet took up her old position sleeping on my chest.

If it's the right thing to do, they'll find ways to tell you. I still fight hard for my animals, but the last lesson Kismet taught me was to respect it when they are done.


----------



## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Michelle you and Gretta are in my prayers. I think your making the right decision, sometimes the cure is worse then the disease. I had a dog on Metronidazole and even though he was normally a chow hound he would not eat taking this drug. He lost 25#! It tastes nasty and leaves a metallic taste in your mouth for days after stopping. I agree with you that you just need to let her enjoy her life as much as possible now. You are not giving up, you are giving her a quality of life back. For my goats eating is everything to them, not being able to enjoy that is gut wrenching. Hugs. BTW I would not put anything in her treats let them just be treats, the one thing that makes her happy.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

You are the one who knows Gretta best and you are the one who will want her to have the best of life. So you are the one who's choice will be best for her. You can just assume that as soon as it is clear to you, that your decision is best. 
(((hugs)))


----------



## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

If anyone understands what you are going through, it is me. I watched as Bonsai got better, then back slid and I begged him and begged him not to go. Stay with me just one more day. You will feel better tomorrow and he looked at me with those eyes, pleading with me. Please, make it better. I felt guilty because there was no way I could make it better, but I could have. I just was selfish and wasn't thinking right. I was in pain and I thought I was helping him, but looking back, I wasn't and I'm going to try to never do that again. When I figure out they are going down, then I'm going to see if it can be solved. If it can, great, I'll fight like a tiger. If it can't, I'm never putting them through the misery that Bonsai went through again.

If you feel like you need to let her go, then let her go. You have no fault in the matter, and you are most definitely blameless here. Let her go and let her love you while she still has time left. Hold her and love her and let her love you.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

We're here for you and Gretta. Whatever you need. You're loved.


----------



## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

Sorry she's reacting poorly to the new treatment. I agree with stopping it if she hates it that much. It'd be better to have a few peaceful days than weeks/months of fighting and stress. I've got a 2 yo ND Lovely that has a really mild temperment and she's reacts very skittishly to things she doesn't like. She was a total love the first 4 mos I had her and then she had a nagging cough that just wouldn't go away so gave het 5 days of oxytet. A full year later her personality is still stuck in skittish at the slightest hint of a day not being normal to her. 

Last yr I lost all three house dogs...March, May and July. The first and last had mitral valve disease the middle one had a very fast aggressive cancer. I will always wonder if I put the cavaliers down too soon. Tanner was the first and after fighting for two years he just couldn't breathe one night. It was a hr ride to the vet and by the time he got into the vet room he was wagging his tail. The vet said his lungs were full tho and it would just be days even with more drugs, seeing how scared my little boy was those few hours I couldn't imagine him home alone and that happening again. Max was in the middle and went from being "off" one week to comatose when I got home from work. The vet said there was no hope which was clearly visable. The third to go was Wyatt and his MVD was fast acting. Hard time breathing, med increases every 2 weeks, urinating constantly due to that, confusion, tiredness. We scheduled him to go to the vet about a week out and of course he was wagging his tail while waiting for the vet to come in as he was having a good morning. But again I chose the day too early vs a day too late, fearing him suffering at home while we were gone to work 9+ hrs. There was no cure for either of the cavs. Both were over the amout of meds they should have. I still miss them and still cry for them. But those last few days they may have had may have been filled with fear and confusion. They went in peace and had good lives. I hope to meet them again some day. :Bawling::Bawling:

All of us who truly love animals will experience this loss over and over throughout our lives. Some being harder than others. Should we not have animals after these hard loses? Yes we should. It would just leave a big hole in our hearts to not have some furry love.

P.s. otter sorry for your loss


----------



## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

Quality of life has become my number one priority when fighting for a beloved animal's life. I learned that lesson from having regrets after the fact. Some animals are so special, though, it can make it awfully tough see clearly. {Hugs} 

Anita from Idaho
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
www.gndt.net/dan-ani


----------



## Dreamgoat Annie (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm so sorry, Michelle, and I sympathize completely. More than any other instance I remember throwing the kitchen sink at Baamadeus when he was dying. He died anyway and he died thinking I was doing terrible things to him. I won't do that again. It's too heartbreaking looking back, remembering him trying to run away from me and scrunch himself against the back of his Port-a-Hut so I couldn't reach him. And he was my friend.

Sue


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Aw Minelson. This has been heartwrenching watching you and Greta. I'm sorry that the treatment is so hard on her. I think that Greta and you have both come to the "enough is enough" line.

There's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't mean you or Greta have given up, it means you want to spend quality time with each other. 

Tootie, my little house dog, reached 20 yr. old. She was deaf, mostly blind and couldn't go outside any more to potty. But, she loved to eat. That was her bright spots in the day. Minelson, I've never said this outloud to anyone. I waited too long, I prolonged Tootie's misery. Instead of putting her down, I hung in there with her, I was going to give her the chance. Well, in after thought..I waited about 1-2 yrs. too long. 

I had to ask her for her forgiveness, take her to the vet, have her put down and of all things..I felt an immense relief..Tootie was not suffering anymore. Had to do the same thing with the old horse Pokey..she was almost 30, I'd had her 28 years. Yes, a piece of ourselves leaves every time we lose one. Yet, if it didn't bother us..maybe we shouldn't have them in the first place.

You've done a great job by Greta, I think she just wants her best friend/momma back.

You are in my prayers Minelson and so is Greta.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Min, when I brought my darling Otie (Boston Terrier) into the vet due to seizures, I knew after looking at the X-rays that it was time. He had always had troubles. Only one of a litter that survived when Momma was hit by a car, born deaf, and one eye mostly blind. Allergic to the North American continent, so I had to buy special grain-free/chicken-free food for him (which was NOT readily available back then). He had spent his life glued to my side...the left side, that is. So his blind eye was to me.

Then I saw the X-rays...a heart so enlarged that his lungs were squished to his ribcage....and I knew. I could have taken him in by-weekly to get fluid drained out via big needles, but that was not a lasting solution. That would buy a few months, maybe. 

So, we went into the room with the couch, and he jumped up beside me and laid against my left thigh while I rubbed his ears...just like he had done for all those years with me. And the vet gave him the shot in his I.V. line.

I am crying just remembering it. My sweet, little Otie!

The point to that sad tale is that was the ONLY time in my life that I did the right thing at the right time when it came to letting a beloved pet go. Every other time, I have waited FAR too long. I waited too long with my little Keeshound, Sassy, when she was diagnosed with Lyme Disease. I waited too long with Little Bit, my Bengal cross. I could continue on and on with beloved pets that I let down because I waited too long. I should have let them go when there was still a bit of joy within them, instead of waiting until their lives were without any.

I can't say I don't come by it honestly, because my mother is the same way. I am taking care of her 18 year old cat Molly, who should have been put down months ago, while attempting to convince her that it is time for Molly to move on. 

But I understand. It is so very, very hard to let go.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thank you all so much. So VERY VERY much. What a relief this morning when I just gave her the pred and probios. I'm going to have to wash her face, it is all sticky from the grape juice. I just got home from the hospital with hubby. He has intestinal problems too and had to get a colonoscopy. When I let the goats out Gretta ran and hid from me. She wouldn't come out of the barn until I was in the house.  But I know she will catch on soon that the icky stuff is gone. I am going to continue with the pred, probios, Dyne and just take it one day at a time. I'm also going to make the Kefir when I get it and offer her the coconut oil and Slippery elm bark. Quality of life is at the top of the list. 
Calianne thank you so much for all the research and figuring out the dosages. And also Barleychow with the schedule help. If it didn't taste so awful and if Gretta would have been a bit more accepting I would have really liked to continue to see if what the outcome would have been. I am learning soooo much through this. 
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help me. Your time and support means so much to me and I love you all so much!


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I am so, so sorry Min.  :grouphug:


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

It took me a long time to fully understand there are worse things in life than death. It sucks and it hurts when it happens but I believe you thinking in Grettas hooves is the right thing to do. 

Im so sorry out of the many things that could happen with goats I still have a hard time believing that this is happening to your goats. I do want you to believe that this has put a new fire under me that I cant tell by looks that one is negative or even had an idea. Who would have thunk chunky monkey there was even sick 2 months ago. 

Personally I believe that shes had the best life a goat could hope for, I cant imagine a better more devoted owner, and thankfully you know now where to draw the line.

I fully believe that your choice is the right one.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I am so sorry Michele you are going this & so sorry for gretta too! My heart is breaking with yours & I can truly understand your pain. I sure wish I was closer, not that I could do anything for Gretta but at least I'd be there to cry with you.

You know you've done everything possible for Gretta & like you said it's a terrible disease & her quality of life is miserable right now. I know we all want to keep our pets as long as we can. That's just human nature. The hardest thing is knowing when we have to stop & let God take over.
Sending you my biggest ineternet HUGS!! Sure wish there was more I could do!


----------



## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

There are definatley ways around the bad taste, but not sure if she has the time at this point, but they can usually have these to you in a few days:

Metronidazole Oral Paste | Wedgewood Pet Rx
note the apple and molassess flavor

Metronidazole Oral Oil Suspension | Wedgewood Pet Rx
Tutti fruiti is a yummy one but lots of flavors with the oil.

This form is 500 mg per 1 ml so a TINY amount!
http://www.wedgewoodpetrx.com/items/metronidazole-topical-oral-paste.html


----------



## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

oops double post


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

lasergrl said:


> There are definatley ways around the bad taste, but not sure if she has the time at this point, but they can usually have these to you in a few days:
> 
> Metronidazole Oral Paste | Wedgewood Pet Rx
> note the apple and molassess flavor
> ...


That is great info...not for Gretta though but maybe for the others if/when they start showing signs. I wonder if they make Cipro better flavored?


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Nothing but hugs here for you. I am here if you need to vent, scream, or cry.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Just received a box full of goodies from Barleychown!! Thank you so much...especially for the extra stuff. I don't know what that slimy sliced bologna looking stuff in gravy is though...?????? How do I use the Sesame oil ? And thanks SO much for the drench gun! Is the coconut drink for me or Gretta? lol!! You are so kind, thank you    
Happy Dance!


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

The slimy slice of bologna is the kombucha mother, just toss it in your fridge until you decide if you want to make your own. The bottle of sesame oil is actually kombucha...I was limited on options for plastic bottles around here, lol. The coconut drink is water kefir, to get you by until your own is ready. 

Only after I shipped the box did I realize I didn't label a darn thing. Sorry!

If you put the whole, closed jar of coconut oil into a pitcher of hot tap water in your sink and leave it for 15-30 minutes, it will liquefy and you can suck it up into the big syringes...I filled one, but couldn't fit it into the box, so I emptied it again and just shipped them that way.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> The slimy slice of bologna is the kombucha mother, just toss it in your fridge until you decide if you want to make your own. The bottle of sesame oil is actually kombucha...I was limited on options for plastic bottles around here, lol. The coconut drink is water kefir, to get you by until your own is ready.
> 
> Only after I shipped the box did I realize I didn't label a darn thing. Sorry!
> 
> If you put the whole, closed jar of coconut oil into a pitcher of hot tap water in your sink and leave it for 15-30 minutes, it will liquefy and you can suck it up into the big syringes...I filled one, but couldn't fit it into the box, so I emptied it again and just shipped them that way.


Ok..I see that Kmbucha is a tea that is very healthy?
So now I have the following: Kombucha, Kefir, Probios, Replamin, Coconut oil, Slippery Elm bark, Dyne, Prednisone. The coconut oil can maybe replace the Dyne....the kefir replace the probios.(Although I just got a 300cc tube) I'm a little afraid the coconut oil in large quantities will give her the runs. Can you or someone help me figure out the best way to use all this good stuff. I prefer only 2 drenchings a day. 
I need dose amount for the coconut oil, slippery elm bark, Kombucha and Kefir. What would you do? I am excited to try this new stuff. It sure would be great if Gretta likes it!


----------



## Shayanna (Aug 1, 2012)

Just read through all the pages. I'm rooting for you Minelson. And Gretta. Hang in there. And seeing the posted pictures, Gretta is a beautiful goat! And after reading all of the posts, I can tell you are a wonderful goat mom and shouldn't ever doubt yourself. Trust your gut.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, let's see...

Two doses a day, hmmm. Morning dose: One tablespoon of coconut oil, probios until they are used up and slippery elm bark.

Evening dose: Dyne, kefir and slippery elm bark. And replamin. 

I'd put about an ounce of kombucha in a second filled water bucket where they all have access to it, it is comparable to apple cider vinegar and would be good for them all, but I'd be sure to leave normal fresh water too. 

I'd also offer, to all of them, about 1/2 cup of thick yogurt, topped with kelp powder if you have it.


----------



## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

Minelson, I LOVE your description of the kombucha mother!


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Barleychown said:


> Okay, let's see...
> 
> Two doses a day, hmmm. Morning dose: One tablespoon of coconut oil, probios until they are used up and slippery elm bark.
> 
> ...


I have kelp powder! How much Kefir??
How much slippery elm bark do I use per drenching?:goodjob:


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

As little as a tablespoon is plenty there are sooooo many beneficial bacteria in each drop that any will be very helpful. 

Andabigmac said a pill is about 1/2 tsp, so maybe start there?


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Ok ..I just made a drench in my new drench gun with about 4 cc/ Replamin, a large teaspoon of Coconut oil, Pred, Probios. 
 I'll let you know how it goes. She is being very punky tonight. I asked hubby to do an evaluation with her jammies off. He has not has his hands on her or seen her since the antibiotic treatment. We both agreed that if there is no improvement by the end of the weekend it's time to say goodbye. Pray for her to rally. :Bawling:


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

..she is loosing hair along her spine and getting lesions on her sides that won't heal


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

Oh I am sorry. . . .You have tried so hard. . . .farm life can just suck sometimes.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thinking of stealing some cud again. And adding Thiamine.
Not to cure...but to help her feel ok. I am not trying to cure her..


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

God help me


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

(((big hugs)))


----------



## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I just wanted to say we love you and Gretta. We are here for you.


----------



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Minelson said:


> ..she is loosing hair along her spine and getting lesions on her sides that won't heal


Could it be that one of her new outfits is not fitting properly and rubbing the hair off somehow? 

I'm still following you and Gretta. Just don't have anything intelligent to say. Hoping for a better day tomorrow. :grouphug:


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I came back to ask the same question as Nancy.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Last night after I drenched her blood starting coming out her nose. She was extremely uncomfortable so I gave her banamine. Now it's white stuff coming out of her nose. I don't know if I injured her somehow with the drench gun or if the drench gun just was able to reach far enough to hit an already problem in her throat area. like an abcess or tumor or something. Which is what I thought from the beginning. Something wrong in her mouth or throat. So. now here it is, a holiday, and I need a vet out here NOW. My boss left town last night so he is not available. I'm just going out to check her status 
again and then call her other vet emergency number. 
This really turned into a mess and I will never forgive myself.


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

Minelson, You have been the BEST goat owner I have heard of. It seems like a mess to you but you have to remember,,,,,,,,,there is a higher power! You are working against a disease that is very difficult to treat. 

You may have opened an abcess that will bring her comfort as it drains. I think you need to take a breath and watch her. She may be more comfortable!

I have watched your struggle with her and have been amazed that the information that has been flowing through these threads. Believe me I am taking notes. I also am very concerned for your well being. You are so caught up in taking care of Gretta it maybe be difficult for you to be objective and see when you need to step back and reconsider. 

Personally, I think the abcess rupture is going to bring her lots of relief. She will be able to eat easier. It's okay. Just watch and see.

Love you and all that you have done!

Carla


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thank you Carla. She is eating alfalfa right now. She has white stuff coming out both sides of her nose. I can't tell if it's pus or snot. She is not happy. I firmly believe now that there is something down in there that opened up. With my luck it's CL. She did test negative for CL but that is not all that reliable.


----------



## Dreamgoat Annie (Nov 28, 2011)

Michele, hang in there. You are the best goat mom ever. I'm praying and sending Reiki to both of you.


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

I don't think CL pus is white. I think you're okay there. All of the antibiotics may have helped some pocket of infection break free like CJ said. As for the sores, antibiotics make my skin crawl in a bad way. That may be her case especially with the high dose. She may have rubbed herself raw trying to alleviate some itching. I wouldn't call the vet just yet. 
I would take Gretta and the rest of your babies some pumpkin pie. I'd bet Gretta would eat some of that. I would make sure that Frankie got the smallest amount because he's a little <coughs> fat.


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Thinking of you and Greta on Thanksgiving.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Vet will be here at 10:30


----------



## iloveafarmer (Feb 23, 2008)

Praying


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

He is running late. 11:30 now


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

Thinking of you both.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is my best friend. I have so many fond memories. I'm just so sorry I hurt her last night. And I feel guilty having the vet come out on a holiday. Thank God hubby is home. He is holding me up. I just came in from laying in the sun with her. She likes to be petted and scratched and the sun is nice and warm. Me and Gretta are both queen of the farm. Now it will just be me. Frankie knows somethings up and keeps laying his head in my lap while I pet Gretta. I put the babies in the other pen to keep them out of the way. This is between me, Gretta, Frankie and Flossie.


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

:Bawling: I'm sobbing . I know you are feeling 100x worse. All I know to say is I'm so sorry it has come to this.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Biggest hugs to you, Minelson.


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

I agree with the breaking of an abcess she is more comfortable. I think that her skin is "thinning" so her abcess could break more easily.(You did NOT hurt her or cause this!)

The white coming out of her nose would not be CL. It is probably from her lungs which are not processing the fluids out of them. This happened to our pony after she had a heart attack.

I am so sorry for you. To lose your friend on Thanksgiving. . .but you will always be thankful that you had her in your life.


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I lost my mare, my best friend for 21 years, last year. She had been with me since my tenth birthday...I understand your pain. I wish I were closer, I wish I could do or say more. Know that there are many here who are standing with you, even if in spirit only.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is gone


----------



## Barleychown (Jan 30, 2008)

I am so very sorry.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Rest easy, Gretta. :Bawling:


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

:Bawling::Bawling::Bawling: ((((((((((hugs))))))))))) I am so so sorry Michelle. I am thankful she is no longer suffering and that you where with her in her last hours though. I am sending HUGE hugs and prayers today over to you and the family.

Justine


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

SO very very sorry. Run in the warmest sunlit pastures, Gretta.


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

OH my heart just hurts for you. . . . .


----------



## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm so terribly sorry, my heart is breaking with yours and once again, I am bawling on another Thanksgiving day. She was so very loved though and she knew that. God Bless you Michele. ((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))) and prayers.


----------



## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm so terribly sorry... you two fought the good fight.. big, big hugs

susie, mo ozarks


----------



## Dreamgoat Annie (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm so wretchedly sorry Michele. I don't know what else to say.

{{{hugs}}}

Sue


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

We just got back from Forever Friends where she will be cremated and her ashes spread with Shep's and Bobo's. I held her all the way there. Now we are going to clean out the barn as best we can and tryto comfort Flossie and Frankie who are completely freaked out right now. We let them see her body and they followed it, even though wrapped in a blanket, to the truck and cried at the truck door. They no she is gone and very distraught. That makes it harder. I am numb. I feel like I'm stuck in a dream or something. Hubby is taking very good care of me. Everything about the passing is peaceful except for Frankie and Flossie and the dogs. Rocky and Boris have never been so worried. The horses are standing at the gate. They know mama is upset. Everyone is out of sorts...that is the impact that Gretta had here. It's a huge loss. I am very concerned about Frankie and Flossie and will spend the rest of the afternoon with them. They have no clue how to live without their mama


----------



## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Oh honey I am so very very sorry. I wish things were different for you and your family. ((hugs)). We are all here for you and please if we can anything let us know.


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

You are Frankie and Flossie's mama now. That is what you will do for Gretta.

Everyone has to grieve together


----------



## andabigmac (Jan 10, 2011)

So sorry, Sweetie. I'm glad you have your husband there and the comfort of the rest of your animal family with you. We're here for you too. Big Love for you all.

RIP Gretta. Run without pain.


----------



## BoerMomma (Oct 16, 2012)

I just sat here and read through all 11 pages and hoped, that by the 11th page I would find some good news :Bawling: I want to send my condolences to you. I am so very very sorry for your loss!


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Minelson, I am so very sorry for your loss. But you did all you could do and more for dear Greta. I think Greta only stayed around this long for you..she just couldn't do it any more.

Those two kids will call you momma before you know it. And yes, your whole homestead knew when the queen passed. It's amazing how some animals have that effect on the others.

I wish you peace of mind Minelson, maybe that was what Greta was trying to give you. 

Blessings~


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I can not believe how lost we are! Frankie and Flossie are running around crying...they never do that! I just want to crawl in a hole but my babies need help. I don't know if I have it in me. I'm so tired.


----------



## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

Take some treats and just go sit where Gretta liked to sit. They are just crying with you


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh Michele, I can't begin to express the sadness I feel. You worked so hard for your sweet Gretta. She is in a better place and pain free now. I wish I could just give you a great big hug. 

Carla


----------



## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

I'm so sorry.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I held her. He gave her a sedative which made her relax into my arms. I ddin't hold the vein which made thigs messy but who cares. She died in my arms. i just wish I didn't put her through so muc and feel very guilty. I have learned a lot but am crying over loosing my best friend. I will be posting pictures when I am mor stabl.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Minelson, I am so very sorry for your loss. But you did all you could do and more for dear Greta. I think Greta only stayed around this long for you..she just couldn't do it any more.
> 
> Those two kids will call you momma before you know it. And yes, your whole homestead knew when the queen passed. It's amazing how some animals have that effect on the others.
> 
> ...


This is so real! And so True! That's all I can say butWOW!


----------



## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm so so so sorry Michelle. I know she meant the world to you. You are in my thoughts and I'm hoping for your own well being. Poor Gretta. Just think of her in a lush green meadow eating till her heart is content, waiting to see her best two legged friend again.


----------



## iloveafarmer (Feb 23, 2008)

Oh no! We are so sorry. My kids are wondering why I'm crying, when I told them they get it. They took care of a little pygmy goat named Gretta for a couple of years and she died recently (coyotes). I'm glad your hubby is there to take care of you.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I don't have words, Michele, but I do have {hugs}


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I have so much to live for but so much to mourn. The thought of Gretta being gone takes my breath away to the point that I can't talk


----------



## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

On this Thanksgiving day, I want to say thank you Michelle for sharing Gretta with us. I can remember when she was pregnant and driving you crazy with her due date  . Your wonderful and funny stories have kept me entertained and brought a smile to my face at times that I didn't think I could smile through my own heartache. Thank you for making me not feel so silly about loving my "pet goats". Thank you for sharing this journey. We have all learned so much (and cried alot today). You are Gretta's hero and your love for her shined through today. When you are ready I'd love to see some of your favorite pictures and hear more stories to go along with them. You are loved here on this little goat board


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh Min, oh Min. :Bawling:
It was her time, she was ready. 
Any guilt you have MUST be put to rest. You did all you could for her & then some. She knew it. We all know it.
Dump that guilt down the toilet right now, it has no place in your life.


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Michelle I'm so very sorry,(((( Hugs to a very dear sweet goat mom, the bestest in the WORLD))))) We all loved Gretta and she will live on through Frankie and Flossie.


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh Min, I don't know what to say. I cried as read the about the last of battle to make your friend comfortable and then again when I read she had died. :Bawling: 

You are a wonderful goat mom, don't you dare think any different. You gave everything you could to Gretta. :grouphug:


----------



## emanuelcs34 (Dec 5, 2007)

I am so sorry that you lost her. I have been here since she was waiting to have Frankie and Flossie. I feel like I knew her as well as my own. I am very sorry for your loss.


----------



## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Jyllie63 said:


> We have all learned so much (and cried alot today). You are Gretta's hero and your love for her shined through today. QUOTE]
> 
> Amen


----------



## Lovin' FarmLife (Sep 14, 2009)

Michelle,
I'm so sorry for the loss of your precious little Gretta.
You gave her love.
You gave her a great home.
You kept her as comfortable and healthy as possible.
You listened when she said she was ready to move on, as painful as it was for you, and the rest of the family.
You gave her peace, even tho it would cause you to mourn.
You did everything you could have done, I'm proud of you.
Mourn now and comfort Frankie and Flossie, but our days here need to continue to move forward, she is in your heart now.
Hugs to you, you kind-hearted woman.
Gina


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Just got in tonight....and just got on this thread.

Oh Michelle! I am so sorry! :Bawling: :sob: :Bawling: :sob:

Gretta is surely in a bight, sunlit meadow, with plenty of rosebushes, marigolds, and other yummies to nibble upon. She is visiting with friends and relatives that have gone before her, perhaps her dam, and telling them how she worried about leaving you, even though it was her time, and how you tried so very hard to keep her there, and how much you loved her. 

Her granddam is probably there too, and they are all saying how they are going to wait with her, not only to keep her company, but so that when it is your time to go, they can meet the human who loved their sweet Gretta so much, and who Gretta loved so much in return.

And many years from now, when it is your time, you are going to walk into that sweet meadow and Gretta is going to come running from the other side, dancing and playing like she used to do, calling to the other goats, "My Michelle is here! Come meet my wonderful Michelle who loves me so much!"

There is no need to feel guilty. Gretta knows now what it was all for. How could she do anything but love you even more for working so hard for her?

And she will be there, waiting, with her friends and family that have gone before her, for the time when you can join her, and sit with her again in the sun.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh, I'm so sorry. It's so hard to make decsions for your animals. If someone could just say- this is the end result no matter what you do. But you don't know, especially when it's a new experience. 
It's impossible to know for sure- I can remember thinking "If I do this, maybe it is the one step that will save her." So inch by inch you try things- going just a little further each time because it is such a small thing and it may be the effort that saves. 
And I have given a animal a longer, pleasant life when even vet said that there was no help. The vet was wrong about the diagnosis. 
So all any of us can do is learn as much as we can, make the hard choices for the animal who can't make their own decisions and do it with love and respect. You did all that for your Gretta. 
May you find your way back to the good memories of your years together.


----------



## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Oh crud. I am so sorry to hear about Gretta. I am just a lurker here, no goats. But I've learned through this forum that goats are not just indifferent barnyard creatures, but real characters who are fun and affectionate. And that one can bond with a goat the way others bond with dogs and cats. No one has taught me that more than you and Gretta. That being said, Gretta was still a special goat, very much loved by the special person sent to care for her.

I have been following but not said anything. One, I have no miracle cures and two, what you needed was your online goat family to rally around you, which they have. But now seeing this unfortunate turn of events I wish to extend my heartfelt sympathy. I know Gretta is leaving a huge hole in your heart that will take a long time to heal. 

And what Caliann said has me completely choked up. What she said, says it all. Remember that Gretta knows you loved her and now knows what you were trying to do. And remember that Gretta is ok now. Really... she is. 

Very, very sorry for your loss.


----------



## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Like SunsetSonata, I have no goats, but I have been tracking this. I have cried each time I checked in and I have prayed that each idea would be successful. I must say you are all inspirational. Your love and support for Gretta and each other is truly amazing and I feel blessed to have been able to peak in the window of this wonderful family. I am so terribly sorry for your heart-pain.


----------



## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

Oh, I'm so very sorry.


----------



## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

another ungoated lurker sending you condolences, wishing you peace and strength in processing your grief.

We know from the day we let them into our hearts, that one day they will break them.
The joy we gain by loving them will in time once again outweigh the sadness they can bring to our lives.


----------



## April (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm so sorry. Gretta was a great lady, and so are you!


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I grieve your loss.

Sorrow is good. It is painful but cleansing and necessary and honors our loved ones.
Guilt is bad. You did NOT hurt her on purpose, ever. You did all that you could for her, and gave her the ultimate gift when there was nothing else you could give her. How dare you feel guilty for that. I hope if I was suffering without hope someone would give that gift to me - you did that for her. It was compassionate and brave and if she had words she would thank you.

Grieve sweetheart, we're here for you and wish we could be there in person. But don't poison what you did for her or your memories with guilt. Don't. I know it's hard, I _know_ it is. Listen, we all have to die. You gave her as soft and merciful a death as you could, because you loved her. Grieve for it, but don't poison her memory with guilt. Honor the love that you had together. You held her as she passed - what greater gift could you have given her?


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Otter said:


> I grieve your loss.
> 
> Sorrow is good. It is painful but cleansing and necessary and honors our loved ones.
> Guilt is bad. You did NOT hurt her on purpose, ever. You did all that you could for her, and gave her the ultimate gift when there was nothing else you could give her. How dare you feel guilty for that. I hope if I was suffering without hope someone would give that gift to me - you did that for her. It was compassionate and brave and if she had words she would thank you.
> ...


What Otter said.

Yes.


----------



## Shayanna (Aug 1, 2012)

i'm so sorry. i have no words other than that. just dont lose hope for the future. frankie and flossie need you, and after hearing about all of the love you pour into your goats, i think any goat would be proud to call you maaaamaa(said in goat voice.) cheesy, i know, but i hoped to make you smile and i'm good at cheesy.


----------



## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

Oh I'm so sorry  She fought so hard and you for her.
Thank you for sharing her with us, I've been thinking about you all a lot lately.
*hugs*


----------



## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

Oh, no.......

I hadn't come back to this thread for a day or two and hadn't realized that things had progressed to the point they had.

I am so very, very sorry for your loss. There is not a soul on this earth who could ever say that you didn't fight for Gretta and try to do the very best that you could for her.

The proof in that is the choice that you made in the end when you realized you had done all that you could. Deciding when the time is right is always so hard (been there, done that) and you made a very hard - but right - decision.

Gretta knew she was loved.

My heart goes out to you.


----------



## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Minelson, I am really sorry that Gretta has moved on. Your loss is big - as is your heart. You tried so dang hard! wishing you peace.


----------



## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

I'm sorry Minelson. It will take time, but eventually it will get better. YOu did your very very best, more than I could, more than many would. I'm glad you have the others to help you through it and so that you're not alone. They're the luckiest goats on earth, and if it means anything - if I were a goat, I would want to live on your place.


----------



## punchiepal (Oct 11, 2008)

Michele,
I am so sorry to hear about Gretta! You took great care of her and are a wonderful goatie momma.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Every ones words mean so much to me .. So much


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I finally had time to get caught up reading. I'm so sorry you lost Gretta, but ....well, all those things that everyone has said. You did a GOOD job.

Huggs,
Alice


----------



## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Oh I am so sorry for the loss of your precious baby. My heart breaks for you and those who loved her.


----------



## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

I am so sorry for your loss of Gretta. She was such a personality!


----------



## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Oh Michele Gretta was an awesome goat. You two fought the good fight...she knew it, and deep down I hope you know it too. {{{hugs}}}


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I just had time to get on here over the last couple days & I am so very sorry for your loss.
I agree with everyone else & You should know you did everything possible for Gretta. No guilt from you what so ever, No way!

Gretta's up there with Shep & some of our best goat buddies, running & munching away now! No more pain, uncomfortable feelings, no more med's. She's a Happy, Healthy girl now.
Rest in peace, Dear Gretta.


----------



## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Ugh. I am so sorry. :: hugs :: I hope to be even half the loving goat mom you are when I get my goats.


----------



## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I have been gone for two days and just got back to log on. I am so so so sorry Michelle! Miss Gretta is definitely in a better place now, no more suffering. I know she's up there watching over my Popcorn and Spice and I know my favorite dog Zory is up there watching over them and protecting them all. Hugs to you Michelle, what a sad day. Please know that we all loved Gretta and this huge goat family misses her dearly. I hope you can grieve and get some peace in your heart you are the worlds best goat momma. ((Hugs))


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks everyone. All your posts are very comforting and holding me up. I am doing a little better. Frankie and Flossie are still lost but stopped calling for her. Gretta sure had a huge presence here and not having her here is going to be hard for everyone to get used to. Hugs to you all and I don't know what I would do without my goat forum family. I feel closer to you all than anyone else and really appreciate your friendship and outpouring of love.


----------



## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

I'm so sorry Minelson! You've been in my thoughts, and I'm sorry it ended the way it did. 

You have been such an inspiration here - your care and love are unsurpassed! Gretta will be missed by all of us, and I'm sure she knows how much you loved her. I think it was the only thing keeping her going. 

Hugs to you, and all the rest of your critters :grouphug:


----------



## ntjpm (Sep 1, 2008)

Oh Minelson I am so so sorry, she was so loved and adored while she graced this earth with her presence and that will live on not only in Frankie and Flossie, but also in you. She was one in a million for sure. My thoughts and prayers are with you all. 
Tracy in WA


----------



## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

My heart aches for you Mineleson......{{hugs}} from Oregon.


----------

