# Opinion on Financial Planners



## ConservatvHippy

I have worked in the IT field for 30+ years and although it has been a great gig, technology is just moving to fast or my desire to keep up has slowed down the past few years. I have decide to leave my corporate career and start a much less stressful life.

I am currently 57 and plan on working part time to supplement my pension until SS kicks in at 66. My wife and I both have homesteading tendencies and live simply on the 2 acres we have. I have a 1/2 acre garden, fruit trees, chickens and a small greenhouse (16x28) that help me stay busy. God has lead me all my life and now He is allowing me to make a change. My health coverage is part of my retirement package. It remains to be seen the cost of my heath care but I do have my company providing the coverage at a discounted rate. Thank you Jesus.

My question is around financial planning. Does anyone use a planner and do you feel they provide you the value ?? I have no clue where to start myself but I don't want to be taken for a ride. But I also am very emotional about investing. My emotions don't make great decisions when it comes to MY money.

I would appreciate any opinions on your experiences. Thank you.


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## Bret

A fool and his money are soon parted. I know that. I knew that. We don't always know if we are the fool or the people that we empower are fools. I always assumed it was me, and never put "everything" to work in one place. I expect some risk and know that if I am wrong, I could lose all or some principal. I have done some foolish things but liked that I could only blame myself for the outcome and I learned. I have entrusted some fools and that hurts twice. Lost principal and angry feelings. 

There have to be good financial planners. Go all in now! But only in your education. That is to say, go to the bookstore and buy some good books. Several. Take some time this winter to read and read and cross read to build up your knowledge and guts. You need both. You will make some mistakes. Call it tuition. 

You will plant some things that will not give you a return. Your garden has much to say about investing. Spread the risk. All the best.


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## ConservatvHippy

Simple and great advise.


Thanks much.....


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## mnn2501

In many states. anyone can call themselves a Financial Planner. 
There is a board that certifies them (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certified_Financial_Planner)
though, which they can then use that designation - which doesn't mean there aren't crooks, just that they've been trained.

My advice: Vanguard Mutual Funds - managed by you, spend some time this winter learning about Mutual funds. I've had better luck with Vanguard than Fidelity or BMO or Hartford.


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## moeh1

There are fee-only planners available. They only stick their hand in you wallet once to assess and develop a plan for you. 
Also, depending on the amount of money you might put there, Vanguard and Fidelity will get you free basic help.


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## frogmammy

My sister and her DH went to see a financial planner that held several seminars in their area. Since he was holding seminars he MUST be good, huh?

For a mere $10,000 EACH he would draw up a plan that would assure they'd have income the rest of their retired lives.

I think he is planning HIS financial future, really.

I told her they'd managed to raise a total of six children, pay their bills on time, always had food in the house, clothes on their backs, covered emergencies, surgeries, car breakdowns, paid off several cars, trucks, and two houses for the 45 years they had managed their finances themselves. Why change now?

Mon


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## mmoetc

My suggestion is to ask friends and acquaintances who they use. You might get a consensus or a lot of diversity. Interview as many as you wish. They should be able to tell you about the services they offer without needing too many specifics. Find one you're comfortable with who has an investing philosophy you can live with. Stay away from those who wish to sell you specific investment vehicles they make money off of. Someone you pay a flat fee to meet with a couple times of year to go over strategy and offer advise will have more at stake than someone who makes his money selling you something. Above all, if they have to talk you into something walk away for a while and think about it.


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## DEKE01

Go to your local bank and see what they have to offer. If you have more than $1M in net worth, they usually offer very good and personalized service in what they will call their private bank. Bank of America does this but it takes $5M (I think) to get in their private bank called US Trust. My in-laws did this with 5th/3rd (stupidest bank name ever) which is in the region around Ohio. Now they have one guy they can call and anything they want done in banking is handled by someone they know who knows their personal circumstances. And their banker calls them every few months just to stay in touch and makes sure their are no changes in their lives. 

If you are doing any estate planning, buying real estate, most anything involving money, taxes, planning, they will get involved and bring in experts at no additional fee (usually). One of my customers is with US Trust and when she did her will (4 times in 12 years) they have a team of 4 to 6 people looking over everything, advising her on how to set up things to avoid taxes and troubles, etc. The banks bend over backwards to keep that kind of customer happy. 

Their services are going to cost you about 0.75 - 1.5% of the assets they manage on an annual basis, depending on who large your balances are. 

If you have less than $1M in assets, their are independent local financial planners. Some of these guys are good, some not. I play poker with a bunch of indy financial planners and to a man they say they enjoy poker because their career forces them to be extremely conservative with customer money and poker gives them an opportunity to be a little crazy. Find out what certifications they have, like Certified Financial Planner is supposed to be a good one but there are others that don't mean much except the guy is trying to fool you. These local guys will have 1 to 5 people in the office and charge a slightly higher percentage than the big banks. Make sure the ONLY fees they get is that percentage and that they don't make extra money by trading stocks in your account. They should not get ANY profit shares from mutual funds which encourages them to invest where they may benefit more than you.

For the same reason, don't go to an insurance firm or mutual firm because they will want to invest your funds in their funds. You want your planner to choose the very best investments for your circumstances as he deems prudent without any financial conflicts of interest.


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## ConservatvHippy

I think I have some homework to do and make some appointments.

This decision came sooner than I expected because my company is being sold and I want to make sure I get in this early retirement insurance benefit while I can. I have no idea if this will be offered after the sale. They may take it away from retirees as well, but I think that would be less likely.

So, lets say I plan on a 5% withdrawal rate from my savings/investments and a FP is 1.5 %. That 1.5 is another 30% increase in withdrawal rate. And the FP would certainly have a chunk of money in long term (annuity-like) investments. Is it possible for the FP to earn his way on active investing of a smaller chunk of money. Assuming 25% liquid and 50% long term assets, and the whole market conditions, it seems like earning money is getting harder and harder to do (too my simple mind).

Life decisions are challenging. Like I said, time to hit the books and dig in some interviews. Thank for the feedback....


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## cfuhrer

Check out what Dave Ramsey has to say about financial planners. Heart of teacher and doesn't make money off the products they sell.

Like others have said education is key. Learn as much as you can before you seek advice.


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## DEKE01

ConservatvHippy said:


> So, lets say I plan on a 5% withdrawal rate from my savings/investments and a FP is 1.5 %. That 1.5 is another 30% increase in withdrawal rate. And the FP would certainly have a chunk of money in long term (annuity-like) investments. Is it possible for the FP to earn his way on active investing of a smaller chunk of money. Assuming 25% liquid and 50% long term assets, and the whole market conditions, it seems like earning money is getting harder and harder to do (too my simple mind).


I am on the board of a foundation that has its funds professionally managed. We are required to distribute 5% / year at a minimum. The bank, US Trust, gets their 0.75% plus some other fees because they do the taxes and IRS filings for us. The funds are not in guaranteed investments but they are fairly conservatively allocated in a diverse collection of stocks, bonds, hedge funds, real estate, and commodities. The bank projects that the balance will always continue to grow in an avg year. Of course that means there are terrible years, bad years, good years, and great years. 

5% is fairly easy to achieve, but say you only get 4% on average and the bank charges you another 1.5% and you withdraw 5%. That means your balance is declining on avg of 0.5%/ year and will last 200 years before they run out. Of course, you won't live that long and inflation will eat at the buying power forcing you to increase how much you withdraw. That's why I always plan on keeping withdraws slightly less than my portfolio income so the balance is usually increasing. 

Stay away from annuities. They are almost always a scam with high hidden fees.


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## phrogpharmer

Don't get involved with a salesperson (shark). Use a fee based planner if you need advice. Bob Brinker has a good radio program on Sundays that encourages people to be their own financial planner using no load funds. Check out his recommended reading list at bobbrinker.com.


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## Declan

I am skeptical of them generally, and if I did hire one, I would double check with a CPA on everything before I did anything. There are some dodgy people out there calling themselves financial planners who basically need to sell things to get get commissions/kickbacks to support themselves who do not have the client's best interest at heart. The number of people I have known to stupidly stupidly stupidly create unnecessary and expensive trusts, fund them, and then have to spend a lot of time and money undoing them to be able to do what they want with their property are legion.


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## DEKE01

Declan, you are correct in that you need to double check everything and everyone. The reason I like a bank is that they have multiple internal checks far removed from the people working your plan. That helps keep everyone honest and the banks are subject to lots more regulatory oversight. 

Trusts, unless you are funding them with more than a half mil are not worth the effort and costs and even then it is questionable until it gets to be more than $1M. A larger bank will have a trust department that wants to get the income of managing your trusts. So don't let them talk you into them, however, when the lawyer is setting up the trusts, the banks legal dept will look over everything to make sure you are getting what you need and want. 

This is one of the few times when I think a larger biz is better than a mom and pop type operation. The little independent guys just can not afford to have the resources to have experts evaluate everything you are doing.


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## Maura

Do a lot of reading on financial planning and planners. My nephew has a job as a financial planner and as part of his training (yea, right, a ploy to bring in new business) he did financial planning for the family. When he visited us he and my husband sat down and DH pretty much changed nothing. When he went over Grandma&#8217;s estate, which had already been looked over (Grandpa had done a very good job of creating nest egg on very little income because he played the stock market) the nephew made suggestions that were unnecessary and would have cost money, leaving Grandma with less nest egg.

Since his mother has passed on, I think this nephew was very interested in getting his hands on the inheritance that would come to him, which would have been six figures. Fortunately, DH and his brothers had a good grasp on things and did not make the suggested changes.

The advisor makes a 30% commission from annuities. Stay away from them. A cousin on my ex-husband&#8217;s side ripped off the aunt and possibly the dad. They are currently going through all of the papers to see what this guy did. He went against the aunt&#8217;s wishes and put the money that should have gone to her children into annuities. Fraud. But, nothing they can do about it.


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## StL.Ed

As I understand it, if you pay someone a fee, it should establish a fiduciary relationship, where they are working in your best interest.
If the financial planner/advisor is working on commission it is not necessarily a fiduciary relationship, and the standard is merely that the advice be "appropriate" rather than "best interest".

It is important to ask, and document, what relationship they provide.

Also, the rules might be changing soon, since the Department of Labor has a pending "Conflict of Interest Proposed Rule" that could redefine the relationships.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/regs/conflictsofinterest.html

I've been reading through the FAQs, and they are pretty interesting.


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## Michael W. Smith

mnn2501 said:


> My advice: Vanguard Mutual Funds - managed by you, spend some time this winter learning about Mutual funds. I've had better luck with Vanguard than Fidelity or BMO or Hartford.


I second this!

You need to educate yourself rather than rely on an "expert". Vanguard funds are owned by the shareholders, not a company out to make a profit.

Sure, banks will help you as well. But what is the main service of the bank - customer service and make all their customers happy or are they in business to MAKE money for their shareholders?

Google Vanguard. Depending on how much money you have to invest - Vanguard will have people to guide you.

Sure, financial planners can make you more money - but they get a fee for most transactions. There are honest ones out there, but some are only looking out for themselves - they don't have YOUR best interest at heart. And while planners can make you money, when they are getting paid regardless of how much you make (or LOSE), year after year - you have to be careful.

Google Vanguard, look online about investing, buy some money/investment type magazines - Money, Kipligers, etc.

And whatever you do, do NOT rush into anything. Take your time. Chances are your pension / lump sum can stay with your company's plan. If you don't feel comfortable with that - check out Vanguard and have them help you move the money into an IRA.


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## simi-steading

This is just my way of thinking...

If financial planners are so good at what they do, then why do they need to work for you, instead of their money working for them?


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## Maura

simi-steading said:


> This is just my way of thinking...
> 
> If financial planners are so good at what they do, then why do they need to work for you, instead of their money working for them?


Because they are so nice and thoughtful.


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## dademoss

If you are looking for people that help manage your portfolio/financial planning/tax planning/financial advice, there are two types, a Broker/Dealer (Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, UBS) and a RIA (Registered Investment Advisor) They adhere to different standards of care. You can read a little more here:

https://investorjunkie.com/24051/difference-ria-broker-dealer/

Everyone has different needs and goals, but do your research, know your needs and goals and interview at least 3-4 of each type before you choose.


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## DEKE01

Michael W. Smith said:


> I second this!
> 
> You need to educate yourself rather than rely on an "expert". Vanguard funds are owned by the shareholders, not a company out to make a profit.
> 
> Sure, banks will help you as well. But what is the main service of the bank - customer service and make all their customers happy or are they in business to MAKE money for their shareholders?


You really don't understand what a financial planner is if you think you can become an expert and do their job. You can't be an expert and stay current and live your life and do your full time job and be an expert stock investor, an expert tax planner, an expert CPA, an expert estate planner, an expert real estate investor, an expert commodities investor, and so on. 

Yes, there are bad guys and companies out there. Don't think that all or even most of them are. The bank/financial planner I use has one criteria for compensating and retaining their employees. Their pay and whether or not they get to keep their job is solely determined by the percentage of clients that keep each year. That makes their interests my best interests.


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## DEKE01

simi-steading said:


> This is just my way of thinking...
> 
> If financial planners are so good at what they do, then why do they need to work for you, instead of their money working for them?


.
{sigh} A good financial planner will have under mgmt 100s of millions of dollars. Figure it out from there.


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## DEKE01

Another couple of thoughts about financial planners. Some of you have had bad experiences with FPs. I think the problem is that ANYONE can call themselves an FP but that doesn't make them the real deal. A certified financial planner (CFP) has proven he has significant education and experience to earn the certification. A kid just out of college who is peddling annuities for a life insurance company is not the real deal no matter what he calls himself. 

A chicken soup salesman can call himself a doctor, but the product he pushes is only good for a cold, you need to see a real doctor for cancer. Many of the FPs described in this thread are just annuity salesman or mutual fund salesmen who call themselves FPs. They have products I often don't like but they might be right for someone, just not every person they get to listen to them. 

Don't let your opinion of the people who claim to be an FP color your opinion of the pros. 

And as to becoming your own expert. If the world's best plumber, truck driver, or computer engineer came to your door and said, "Hi, I'm a part time financial planner, can I invest all your retirement funds, write your wills, and plan some tax saving strategies for next year's tax return," would you hire that guy? Are you that guy? Yes, I believe in educating yourself so you have a good understanding of anything you are dealing with, be it cancer or estate planning. But I leave the heavy lifting to the pros.


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## Jolly

Kinda depends on how much money we are talking about. Big money? Yes, I can see the need for professional help. Little money? Maybe not so much.

What most CFP's try to do, is look at things with an objective eye, while still trying to keep the client's goals in mind. Most people of modest income can do the same thing, if they will divorce their predjudices and emotions from their actual financial situation. Shucks, most of what Merrill Lynch or Edward D. Jones guys do for lower level investment clients is nothing more than general strategies provided by Ibbotson software analysis.

Some things I would consider, if 'twere me...

1. If you want an annuity, upfront purchase, fixed time, fixed payment. Anything else gets too far down in the weeds.
2. Because of inflation, folks still need to be invested in equities, although not at the levels of earlier in life and with an intense awareness of fees (shame one can't ladder TIPS). They also need to be very aware of risk - mutual funds are less risky than individual stocks. Vanguard is noted for their performance and their low fees.
3. Learn to budget and live frugally. The best financial skill one can have, is the ability to separate needs from wants, and then meet their needs in the best way possible. For instance- if you need a vehicle, how many vehicles do you need in retirement? How many miles will you be driving? Won't a used vehicle do as well? What does it cost to insure the type of vehicle you want? What kind of fuel mileage does it get? Is it better to buy or lease (some people just keeled over at that one), even though insurance on a leased vehicle costs more money. 
4. Don't let your homestead drag you down. Some things such as small livestock (chickens) or a vegetable garden (open pollinated seeds) can be done very cheaply and help stretch dollars. Some things (such as a yearling for beef) may not make sense when you write things down on paper.
5. Make sure you have rainy day money. Most of the time, it's not the big bill that gets you, it's a succession of small things that have to be done. A/C goes out in the middle of summer, a washer dies, the water pump breaks on the truck...little things can burn a hole in your pocket.

That's just a few, I've got more...


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## Raymond673

Warren Buffet made a great statement about financial planners.. 

âWall Street is the only place that people ride to in a Rolls Royce to get advice from those that take the subwayâ

These guys hock what they are told to hock. As someone stated, a fool and his money is soon parted. The best thing to do is educate yourself so that you can control and grow your own money. 

A am a fan of Robert Kiyosaki and he has some very good down to earth books that have helped us and can help you too. 

Retire Young - Retire Rich - http://tinyurl.com/z3k5kel

Don't let the title put you off, it is a book full of great information and has been my financial bible for many years.

Rich Dad - Poor Dad -- http://tinyurl.com/Ray-Rich-Dad-Poor-Dad

Rich Dad's CASHFLOW Quadrant: Rich Dad's Guide to Financial Freedom - http://tinyurl.com/Ray-Cash-Flow-Quadrent

They key to educate yourself and the fact that many of us have homesteads, people do not realize what wealth they have. 

The sad thing is that taxes, mandated healthcare, draconian regulations is stealing a lot of that wealth. By educating yourself, one can navigate that minefield and start coming out ahead. 

Just my two cents.

Cheers


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## brandysc

google bogleheads...spend time there, read their wiki...


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## Canyonero

CFPs are salesmen dressed as consultants. They'll just throw your money into a pool and manage it according to standard formulas. They make their money regardless of whether you win or lose. Retail investing has become just another lucrative product for the financial services industry.

If you want to invest, it's simple enough to set up an online brokerage account. ETFs are an easy, low-cost option to readily move money in and out of the markets as you wish, in sectors as wide or narrow as you like.

If you feel that your tax situation is complicated enough to warrant it, spend a few bucks consulting with a CPA.


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## DEKE01

I had a phone call with my bankers yesterday. I'm setting up a new LLC and they had 4 of their people providing advice on banking, investing, legal protections, tax matters, and estate considerations. Between them all, they have 3 law degrees and 2 CPAs. Had I hired a lawyer and a CPA to conduct that meeting, I would be out the better part of $1000. My bill for the meeting? Zero, it is part of their annual <1% management fee. That's what kind of service you get from the big banking and investment firms. If you think you can self educate and cover all those bases as well as a pro, you're a fool.

I agree with some here who have said if you don't have much to invest, do it yourself. If you have under $50K, it probably isn't going to matter. At that level, taxes, estate law, and legal liability are generally below the levels of significance for you. The dollar level where it starts to matter will depend on a lot of circumstance particular to each individual. 

Those of you who keep knocking the pros in general by saying you can just do some basic diversified portfolio are demonstrating that you don't really understand what services REAL finance people provide.


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## brownegg

Good information given here. Check out Morningstar.com and get on their forums for another way to become informed.A Fee only planner will set you up and get you going without charging you every month....depends on your situation.....there is no one shoe fits all in investing. I retired at 48 and couldn't be happier 14 years later.


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## LuLuToo

We contacted Dave Ramsey and were given the names of a couple different financial planners they recommend. We made an appointment with one of them and heard what he had to say. That appointment was free of charge and he gave us what we consider good advice. Now, I'm sure you know he won't advise what you are planning to do. Neither would he advise what we are planning, but he listened, then told us what he thought would be a better plan if we do go the way we are thinking (homesteading). 

Then, we made an appointment with a very good CPA. He also didn't really think our plan was the best (we fully expected that), but could see why we want to do this. He agreed that at our ages, we would be hard pressed to ever recover from a bad economic downturn. Investment recommendations really do depend on various things - including your age. He took about a week to look everything over and write up a basic plan for us. We went back in, discussed his recommendations, and feel comfortable with what we plan to do. I believe he charged us about $300 for his services and we considered it money well spent. 

You do need to be aware that investment planners, CPAs, financial planners and the like are in the business of watching money 'grow' from investments. It would be financial suicide for them to recommend you to quit your job and try farming or sustenance homesteading. Just be sure of what you are willing to accept as a suitable lifestyle, what you will be giving up, what you hope to achieve, and where YOU think the economy is going in the near and not-so-near future. For us, we feel the future of the US and world economies are not very dependable. We moved a large portion of our investments into safer things. We also believe land to be a good investment. And we enjoy a simple life.

LuLu


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## LuLuToo

When it comes to how much money you have to invest, I'd have to say that someone who is only investing $50,000 (as opposed to much larger investments) may need the advice more than some big time investors. If you are investing all you have, then when you lose it, what do you have left? Nothing. The big time investors know to diversify and probably have a good source of replacement income. Regardless, if you don't get it right, it can be devastating to your bottom line.

LuLu


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> I had a phone call with my bankers yesterday. I'm setting up a new LLC and they had 4 of their people providing advice on banking, investing, legal protections, tax matters, and estate considerations. Between them all, they have 3 law degrees and 2 CPAs. Had I hired a lawyer and a CPA to conduct that meeting, I would be out the better part of $1000. My bill for the meeting? Zero, it is part of their annual <1% management fee. That's what kind of service you get from the big banking and investment firms. If you think you can self educate and cover all those bases as well as a pro, you're a fool.
> 
> I agree with some here who have said if you don't have much to invest, do it yourself. If you have under $50K, it probably isn't going to matter. At that level, taxes, estate law, and legal liability are generally below the levels of significance for you. The dollar level where it starts to matter will depend on a lot of circumstance particular to each individual.
> 
> Those of you who keep knocking the pros in general by saying you can just do some basic diversified portfolio are demonstrating that you don't really understand what services REAL finance people provide.


Yes, a common argument. Often used by our President, legislators, corporate executives and other influential citizens.

"If you don't agree with the value of this wonderful thing I'm doing for you, you're just too stupid to understand it!"


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> Yes, a common argument. Often used by our President, legislators, corporate executives and other influential citizens.
> 
> "If you don't agree with the value of this wonderful thing I'm doing for you, you're just too stupid to understand it!"


A common tactic when someone doesn't know squat about a subject is to tar their opponent by conflating a bunch irrelevant nonsense. 

I'll repeat. A REAL financial adviser will provide advice and guidance on legal, taxes, business, estate planning, and investing, not just some canned diversified portfolio as some have said here. Maybe you're smarter than me, but I can't be an expert in all those areas. 

That canned diversified portfolio is probably right and good enough for many, so I'm not knocking it. But it is not right for all, knowing the difference is the important part.


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## KeeperOfTheHome

We have a planner we love through Edward Jones. We also use Dave Ramsay's methods. Our EJ advisor is always available to us, great at education, proactive, and calm. We used to have a different EJ guy, but he would basically call us every 6 months and ask if there was anything we wanted to change; as our new guy puts it, he should have been a planner, not an advisor.


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## KeeperOfTheHome

Sorry, he should have been an advisor, not an asker.


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## Canyonero

Yes, yes, hand over control of your investments to a person who makes money whether you win or lose. And who's a member of an industry that has a vested interests in "services and products"...

You'll do better yourself with just a little bit of homework and effort. The vast majority of people have uncomplicated financial situations that don't require any specialized expertise.

Unlike DEKE01, who's got legions of paid specialists hanging on the phone to help him with his new complicated LLC.


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> Yes, yes, hand over control of your investments to a person who makes money whether you win or lose. And who's a member of an industry that has a vested interests in "services and products"...
> 
> You'll do better yourself with just a little bit of homework and effort. The vast majority of people have uncomplicated financial situations that don't require any specialized expertise.
> 
> Unlike DEKE01, who's got legions of paid specialists hanging on the phone to help him with his new complicated LLC.


Or you can follow the advice of someone who has no idea what they are talking about and who apparently can not understand the messages that proceed his.

My LLC is not complicated; it is a business with no hope of significant income. All I wanted to know was what assets of the farm I should place within the LLC in order to protect those assets in the smartest manner. There is conflicting law on the subject. It took an hour or so with the experts to figure out the best plan of action. Of course, I could have spent hours and hours trying to figure it out myself, but when it comes to property law, case law, tax regs, and the like, any error from being only half educated could cause what would be to me, significant harm and financial penalty. I'm sure there are others with so much money or so little money, losing the value of my small farm would not matter. To me it matters. 

And Canyonero says you'll do better with just a little bit of homework. What is the basis of his assertion? A groundless opinion? Here's one academic opinion that says you'll do significantly worse if you're the average guy. 

_Dalbar Inc. is a company which studies investor behavior and analyzes investor market returns. The results of their research consistently show that the average investor earns below average returns.

For the twenty years ending 12/31/2015 the S&P 500 Index averaged 9.85% a year. A pretty attractive historical return. The average equity fund investor earned a market return of only 5.19%._ http://moneyover55.about.com/od/howtoinvest/a/averageinvestor.htm


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> I had a phone call with my bankers yesterday. I'm setting up a new LLC and they had 4 of their people providing advice on banking, investing, legal protections, tax matters, and estate considerations. Between them all, they have 3 law degrees and 2 CPAs. Had I hired a lawyer and a CPA to conduct that meeting, I would be out the better part of $1000. My bill for the meeting? Zero, it is part of their annual <1% management fee. That's what kind of service you get from the big banking and investment firms. *If you think you can self educate and cover all those bases as well as a pro, you're a fool.*
> 
> I agree with some here who have said if you don't have much to invest, do it yourself. If you have under $50K, it probably isn't going to matter. At that level, taxes, estate law, and legal liability are generally below the levels of significance for you. The dollar level where it starts to matter will depend on a lot of circumstance particular to each individual.
> 
> Those of you who keep knocking the pros in general by saying you can just do some basic diversified portfolio are demonstrating that you don't really understand what services REAL finance people provide.



I.E. if you don't get what I'm trying to tell you, you're a fool.

OK DEKE, I guess I'm a fool. 

Pros have exclusive knowledge of tax law, estate law, liability, all of that *mysterious *stuff that ordinary people can't know about. Sure...

There's a whole industry associated with making it seem complicated. It's part of the extremely profitable retail investment industry. 

The thing is, most people who've accumulated significant assets have learned a thing or two about how to manage them along the way. Why hand it off to third parties who have their own interests at stake?

Ever hear of a book called "The Millionaire Next Door"? Check it out. It ain't rocket science.


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> OK DEKE, I guess I'm a fool.


Who am I to argue with you?



> Pros have exclusive knowledge of tax law, estate law, liability, all of that *mysterious *stuff that ordinary people can't know about. Sure...


What do you do for a living? Does it require skill? Education? Experience? Anyone can use a welder with just a little practice but have you seen the difference between a highly skilled pro and a rank amateur? Most anyone can rewire a lamp, but if I'm building a house that has to meet code, I am not going to gamble a significant part of my investment assets on an electrician that is not a pro. 

And with financial planning, it is like building a house where you need plumbing, surveying, electrical, carpentry and many other skills. Are there folks who can build that house on their own and do an even better job than a GC, most definitely. Would you recommend to the average Joe that he build his own $1M house? I would not.



> There's a whole industry associated with making it seem complicated. It's part of the extremely profitable retail investment industry.


Once again you demonstrate a lack of understanding of the subject by confusing planning with the retail investment industry. 



> The thing is, most people who've accumulated significant assets have learned a thing or two about how to manage them along the way. Why hand it off to third parties who have their own interests at stake?
> 
> Ever hear of a book called "The Millionaire Next Door"? Check it out. It ain't rocket science.


And most people who have accumulated significant assets use pros for financial planning. I know lots of financial planners and they use pros if for no other reason that their jobs require time and they can't watch their investments on a daily/hourly basis. 

You really are not making any good arguments. You also keep spouting your opinion even after I have shown you academic data that has shown you to be very wrong. Why didn't you address the study that shows average Joes doing about half as well as pros? And that only talks about the actual investing side, not the other parts of planning involving taxes, estates, etc. 

I really don't care what you do or what you believe, but when you are potentially misleading people with uninformed, baseless opinions, I'm going to call you out. You seem so desperate to win an argument that you have failed to recognize that I have repeatedly agreed with you at least to the extent that SOME people in SOME financial circumstances can/should do their own investing and call it good enough. Most people with significant-to-them financial assets need more than that though.


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> Who am I to argue with you?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you do for a living? Does it require skill? Education? Experience? Anyone can use a welder with just a little practice but have you seen the difference between a highly skilled pro and a rank amateur? Most anyone can rewire a lamp, but if I'm building a house that has to meet code, I am not going to gamble a significant part of my investment assets on an electrician that is not a pro.
> 
> And with financial planning, it is like building a house where you need plumbing, surveying, electrical, carpentry and many other skills. Are there folks who can build that house on their own and do an even better job than a GC, most definitely. Would you recommend to the average Joe that he build his own $1M house? I would not.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you demonstrate a lack of understanding of the subject by confusing planning with the retail investment industry.
> 
> 
> 
> And most people who have accumulated significant assets use pros for financial planning. I know lots of financial planners and they use pros if for no other reason that their jobs require time and they can't watch their investments on a daily/hourly basis.
> 
> You really are not making any good arguments. You also keep spouting your opinion even after I have shown you academic data that has shown you to be very wrong. Why didn't you address the study that shows average Joes doing about half as well as pros? And that only talks about the actual investing side, not the other parts of planning involving taxes, estates, etc.
> 
> I really don't care what you do or what you believe, but when you are potentially misleading people with uninformed, baseless opinions, I'm going to call you out. You seem so desperate to win an argument that you have failed to recognize that I have repeatedly agreed with you at least to the extent that SOME people in SOME financial circumstances can/should do their own investing and call it good enough. Most people with significant-to-them financial assets need more than that though.


Blaga blaga blaga.

Been retired for a long time pal, from a young age. Debt free, living on my homestead. Money falling from the skies. And none of it from Financial Planners.


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> Who am I to argue with you?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you do for a living? Does it require skill? Education? Experience? Anyone can use a welder with just a little practice but have you seen the difference between a highly skilled pro and a rank amateur? Most anyone can rewire a lamp, but if I'm building a house that has to meet code, I am not going to gamble a significant part of my investment assets on an electrician that is not a pro.
> 
> And with financial planning, it is like building a house where you need plumbing, surveying, electrical, carpentry and many other skills. Are there folks who can build that house on their own and do an even better job than a GC, most definitely. Would you recommend to the average Joe that he build his own $1M house? I would not.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you demonstrate a lack of understanding of the subject by confusing planning with the retail investment industry.
> 
> 
> 
> And most people who have accumulated significant assets use pros for financial planning. I know lots of financial planners and they use pros if for no other reason that their jobs require time and they can't watch their investments on a daily/hourly basis.
> 
> You really are not making any good arguments. You also keep spouting your opinion even after I have shown you academic data that has shown you to be very wrong. Why didn't you address the study that shows average Joes doing about half as well as pros? And that only talks about the actual investing side, not the other parts of planning involving taxes, estates, etc.
> 
> I really don't care what you do or what you believe, but when you are potentially misleading people with uninformed, baseless opinions, I'm going to call you out. You seem so desperate to win an argument that you have failed to recognize that I have repeatedly agreed with you at least to the extent that SOME people in SOME financial circumstances can/should do their own investing and call it good enough. Most people with significant-to-them financial assets need more than that though.


Blaga blaga blaga.

Been retired for a long time pal, from a young age. Debt free, living on my homestead. Money falling from the skies. And none of it from "Financial Planners".

If it works for you, have at it.

Be aware, "Financial Planners" first interest is in lining their pockets. Your interests are secondary. 

And there's huge resistance in the industry to the concept of fiduciary responsibility. What's up with that?


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> Blaga blaga blaga.
> 
> Been retired for a long time pal, from a young age. Debt free, living on my homestead. Money falling from the skies. And none of it from "Financial Planners".
> 
> If it works for you, have at it.
> 
> Be aware, "Financial Planners" first interest is in lining their pockets. Your interests are secondary.
> 
> And there's huge resistance in the industry to the concept of fiduciary responsibility. What's up with that?


Hey, I retired early as well, or at least semi-retired because I continue to enjoy working in my field but just a few hours per month, 100% debt free, living my dream on my homestead as well. I'm not sure why any of that matters. 

You seem to have a problem appreciating the value of capitalism. Every company providing a service or product does so for selfish reasons, but the ones that last understand that without a long term benefit to the customer, the customers go away. 

I use a couple of firms to manage my money and I've sat with biz clients as they used planners. I don't know where your belief of this supposed resistance to fiduciary responsibility comes from. I've seen banks make tough decisions that their clients did not like because the bank is legally required to exercise fiduciary responsibility.


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> Hey, I retired early as well, or at least semi-retired because I continue to enjoy working in my field but just a few hours per month, 100% debt free, living my dream on my homestead as well. I'm not sure why any of that matters.
> 
> You seem to have a problem appreciating the value of capitalism. Every company providing a service or product does so for selfish reasons, but the ones that last understand that without a long term benefit to the customer, the customers go away.
> 
> I use a couple of firms to manage my money and I've sat with biz clients as they used planners. *I don't know where your belief of this supposed resistance to fiduciary responsibility comes from.* I've seen banks make tough decisions that their clients did not like because the bank is legally required to exercise fiduciary responsibility.


LOL, the industry fights against it. Real fiduciary responsibility means that they put your interests ahead of theirs. The current standard for CFPs is that their investments are "at an appropriate level of risk" for the client, _in their view_. It doesn't matter that they have their finger in the pie.

See the difference?

I've been an officer in a couple of Fortune 500 companies, and had to deal with fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Hard sledding, screw up and you've got the SEC on your ass.

CFPs? Ahahaha, lololololol. If they really, really, really step way, way, far, far out of bounds, they might get slapped on the hand. Mostly they skate along the edges of legality.


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> LOL, the industry fights against it. Real fiduciary responsibility means that they put your interests ahead of theirs. The current standard for CFPs is that their investments are "at an appropriate level of risk" for the client, _in their view_. It doesn't matter that they have their finger in the pie.
> 
> See the difference?
> 
> I've been an officer in a couple of Fortune 500 companies, and had to deal with fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Hard sledding, screw up and you've got the SEC on your ass.
> 
> CFPs? Ahahaha, lololololol. If they really, really, really step way, way, far, far out of bounds, they might get slapped on the hand. Mostly they skate along the edges of legality.


In your ever changing tale, and your demonstrated lack of knowledge, I just don't know what to believe from you. I was never an officer in a fortune 500 company and I doubt you were as well. I am an entrepreneur and had to earn everything from my own work without someone giving me a job. Maybe that colors my perspective. That's why I don't risk my investments and assets with amateurs, where I include myself. 

I know 2 CFPs from the poker table who were bankrupted by fines one was in excess of $1M. The guy was so shady I don't know how he got clients. So you are in error there as well. 

Where I have seen banks have fiduciary issues is where a client wanted to do something the bank could not allow due to its fiduciary role as a trustee. The bank acted appropriately in the face of risking an angry client.


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> In your ever changing tale, and your demonstrated lack of knowledge, I just don't know what to believe from you. *I was never an officer in a fortune 500 company and I doubt you were as well.* I am an entrepreneur and had to earn everything from my own work without someone giving me a job. Maybe that colors my perspective. That's why I don't risk my investments and assets with amateurs, where I include myself.
> 
> I know 2 CFPs from the poker table who were bankrupted by fines one was in excess of $1M. The guy was so shady I don't know how he got clients. So you are in error there as well.
> 
> Where I have seen banks have fiduciary issues is where a client wanted to do something the bank could not allow due to its fiduciary role as a trustee. The bank acted appropriately in the face of risking an angry client.


Well OK Deke, guess that's an answer when you don't agree, call the other person a liar.


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> Well OK Deke, guess that's an answer when you don't agree, call the other person a liar.


Since you like dalmatians, I'm going to give you a pass on that one.


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> Since you like dalmatians, I'm going to give you a pass on that one.


I don't need a pass from you or anybody else. I take care of my own business. I have my opinions and you have yours. If you want to call me a liar for stating what I believe because it doesn't agree with your view, have at it. Don't patronize me, and don't drag my other posts into this thread. We can have it out here.


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> I don't need a pass from you or anybody else. I take care of my own business. I have my opinions and you have yours. If you want to call me a liar for stating what I believe because it doesn't agree with your view, have at it. Don't patronize me, and don't drag my other posts into this thread. We can have it out here.


It sounds like you need another pass. Have a nice day.


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## Canyonero

DEKE01 said:


> It sounds like you need another pass. Have a nice day.


Always with the personal insults. I don't need any kind of pass from the likes of you.

We don't agree about Financial Planners, Investment Professionals and their ilk.


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## DEKE01

Canyonero said:


> Always with the personal insults. I don't need any kind of pass from the likes of you.
> 
> We don't agree about Financial Planners, Investment Professionals and their ilk.


A. I haven't insulted you.
B. Really? Thanks for letting me know we are in disagreement. That clears up a lot of things. 
C. Here's your pass.


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## ldc

I've dealt with 3 CFP's in 25 years here, and the first 2 didn't know the meaning of "fiduciary". The 3rd knew the meaning, but told me he couldn't use it in practice as his cousin put up the money for their business. (and needed to get/earn it back).

Perhaps financial practices/laws/regs are stronger in FLA?


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