# Ventilators may have killed thousands of COVID patients



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

The vast majority of those put on ventilators died and now they are studying whether other forms of breathing assistance would have been safer.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/northwell-health-probing-use-of-ventilators-for-covid-patients/


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i've been hearing about that for a couple months. likely explodes your lungs or something. i told my son to make sure i didn't go on one


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Ventilators have also permanently harmed and handicapped many individuals who are now considered "recovered" from Covid-19. Yes, the virus is no longer in their bodies, so they have recovered, but are now facing a lifetime on oxygen bottles and/or dialysis machines.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> Ventilators have also permanently harmed and handicapped many individuals who are now considered "recovered" from Covid-19. Yes, the virus is no longer in their bodies, so they have recovered, but are now facing a lifetime on oxygen bottles and/or dialysis machines.


That sucks


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

And thats been feared and advocated by medical professionals for months. Why werent they being listened to. This is heartbreaking.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

From a month ago


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Medical malpractice kills 250,000 people a year. Ventilators are but a single factor in the much larger issue.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ventilators are typically used as a last resort.
Sometimes there are no good options.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

I got my post mixed up ugh


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Ventilators are typically used as a last resort.
> Sometimes there are no good options.


A video i waa going to post here but i posted on the wromg thread. This dr is saying ventilators are needed to supply oxygen but not the pressure. The pressure is what could be causing more damage.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

dmm1976 said:


> The pressure is what could be causing more damage.


Yeah, it's easy to get the pressure too high for damaged lungs.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I *Think* you all might be forgetting two things...

1. When you wind up on a ventilator you are dead without one.
It's not like they run around looking to put people on ventilators for dog bites and runny noses...

2. With COVID the lungs are SEVERELY damaged already if you need a ventilator.
If JUST oxygen will do for you, you don't get a ventilator.

One other thing,
Which type of ventilator?
Is it the non invasive (no tube down throat), 
The positive pressure CPAP type?
The CPAP type with oxygen enrichment?
Is it the full on tube down into lungs, 100% oxygen enrichment (life support) type?

Most don't know there are several types... With benefits & dangers to each.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

From the OP article:


> But McGinn emphasized that ventilators are used as* a last resort* for people who can’t breath.
> “Vents don’t cause deaths. They save lives. If we didn’t put them on a vent they would all die,” he said.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> I *Think* you all might be forgetting two things...
> 
> 1. When you wind up on a ventilator you are dead without one.
> It's not like they run around looking to put people on ventilators for dog bites and runny noses...
> ...


I do. My son was on an oscillator( intubated) a conventional vent with intubation, a conventional vent with nasal canula and cpap. The ventilator pressures and oxygen levels are constantly adjusted with the results of blood gas tests. Sometimes he needed high pressure sometimes lower. On the canula none. Still a vent. Without the oxygen he wouldnt have survived even on lower pressures. Without o2 he would desat quick. Hes had to be revived more than once as an infant.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Most *don't* know


https://www.bet.com/news/national/2...ims-no-findings-of--traumatic-asphyxia-o.html

"A "Statement of Probable Cause" of the death of George Floyd has been released by the City of Minneapolis, and it concludes that Floyd's death was due to underlying health conditions, not strangulation.

"The autopsy revealed* no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation*," the statement reads, according to _CNN._

"Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death." "


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

Hmmm. This doesnt bode well.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

More likely, those people would have died anyway, and placing them on a ventilator only prolonged the process.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> https://www.bet.com/news/national/2...ims-no-findings-of--traumatic-asphyxia-o.html
> 
> "A "Statement of Probable Cause" of the death of George Floyd has been released by the City of Minneapolis, and it concludes that Floyd's death was due to underlying health conditions, not strangulation.
> 
> ...


Why is this on a ventilator thread? Wasn't this topic already moved to the dark forum?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is this on a ventilator thread? Wasn't this topic already moved to the dark forum?


He couldn't breathe.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Anytime a patient goes on a ventilator, there is a very high likelihood that patient is going to die.
This is the simple truth of the matter. It's a mechanical breathing machine.

Many people put something in their last wishes to the effect "do not put me on a ventilator", because it typically just prolongs the inevitable (death) and burns up a bunch of any remaining money in the process.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Why* is this on a ventilator thread? Wasn't this topic already moved to the dark forum?


Call it "thread drift" if it makes you happy.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

dmm1976 said:


> And thats been feared and advocated by medical professionals for months. Why werent they being listened to. This is heartbreaking.


Because the right networks weren’t behind them. 

Our country is like a computer, but the binary code, instead of 1s and 0s, is little Rs and Ds. 

We’re well past due for a reboot, and our harddrive registry is full of junk data.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> https://www.bet.com/news/national/2...ims-no-findings-of--traumatic-asphyxia-o.html
> 
> "A "Statement of Probable Cause" of the death of George Floyd has been released by the City of Minneapolis, and it concludes that Floyd's death was due to underlying health conditions, not strangulation.
> 
> ...


And, yet, none of that matters. Floyd was a human being, and that classification carries with it certain rights.

There was no reason to hold an unarmed and handcuffed man in that position for more than a few seconds, and less so one that was reporting distress.

It doesn’t matter if he was observed selling drugs to autistic children while snacking on a medium-rare baby-meat kebob. It still wasn’t OK for the government’s thug to murder him. 

Don’t fool yourself that, just because you lick the boot, doesn’t mean it won’t end up on your neck some day.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Hijacking a thread because *you* got the others shut down.





GunMonkeyIntl said:


> It still wasn’t OK for the government’s thug to murder him.






GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Our country is like a computer, but the binary code, instead of 1s and 0s, is little Rs and Ds.





painterswife said:


> Patterns of some never change.


I agree totally.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is this on a ventilator thread? Wasn't this topic already moved to the dark forum?


If you have concerns about thread drift, it's better to report it and mods will decide if it breaks any rules. 

It could be said that telling people what they can and can't post breaks rules as well.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> If you have concerns about thread drift, it's better to report it and mods will decide if it breaks any rules.
> 
> It could be said that telling people what they can and can't post breaks rules as well.


I stand fully corrected. 



Bearfootfarm said:


> https://www.bet.com/news/national/2...ims-no-findings-of--traumatic-asphyxia-o.html
> 
> "A "Statement of Probable Cause" of the death of George Floyd has been released by the City of Minneapolis, and it concludes that Floyd's death was due to underlying health conditions, not strangulation.
> 
> ...


The family will certainly have an autopsy and toxicology tests of their own. And Mr. Floyd was living until held down with a knee to the neck by an LEO for nearly 9 minutes.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Mr Floyd was held down for 9 minutes. Almost three of those minutes he was non responsive. The officer holding down his neck had his hand in his pocket. He deserved to be charged. He deserved to be fired. We will see if he is guilty of murder.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Mr Floyd was held down for 9 minutes. Almost three of those minutes he was non responsive. The officer holding down his neck had his hand in his pocket. He deserved to be charged. He deserved to be fired. We will see if he is guilty of murder.


his hand is not in his pocket, he has a black glove on. His hand is braced on his leg.
Which doesnt change the outcome.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> The family will certainly have an autopsy and toxicology tests of their own. And Mr. Floyd was living *until held down* with a knee to the neck by an LEO for nearly 9 minutes.


Caused by his *own* actions.
Comorbidity is a terrible thing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Caused by his *own* actions.
> Comorbidity is a terrible thing.


Thank you for so perfect a summation of what you believe.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you for so perfect a summation of what you believe.


I believe reality.

He caused the chain of events that lead to his death, no matter how much you want to blame someone else.

One could say "he let the dog off the leash"....


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:

A huge percentage, if not the outright majority, of the people who are reading this have been on a ventilator at some time in their lives. I was placed on one twice in 2017, because I had two breast cancer excisions performed under general anesthesia, and GA as it exists now requires mechanical ventilation. This is not the same as a person being on one for days, months, or even a lifetime the way Christopher Reeve was.

People who are sick enough to require long-term ventilation support need speech therapy to regain their swallowing reflex, and physical and occupational therapy to retain muscle strength. That's on top of turning them to prevent bedsores, etc.

Babies born before about 30 weeks' gestation are also assumed to need a ventilator; some don't.


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## RobertDane (Feb 14, 2020)

“One theory is if you put some patients on a ventilator, you might irritate the lungs more."

Gee guys...you design, develop, and make a breathing assist mechanism..And you didn't discuss

in your product review sessions whether the ventilator might actually retard breathing? Cause

irritation...swelling?...Bad engineers..bad...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

RobertDane said:


> Bad engineers..bad...


Side effects and collateral damages aren't necessarily design flaws.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"The Hennepin County Medical Examiner released a new autopsy report Monday, ruling George Floyd's death was a homicide. The office said Floyd's heart and lungs stopped functioning "while being restrained" by law enforcement officers.

Floyd died due to "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restrain, and neck compression," according to the report.

It also specified "other significant conditions," including fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use as well as existing heart disease.

In charging documents released last week, prosecutors said that preliminary results from an autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."

However the new report from the medical examiner did not include such language.

The Floyd family had released a report just hours earlier on the autopsy they had commissioned.

Those findings also said his death was a homicide. But the experts' conclusions differed drastically from those of the county.

The independent report concluded the 46-year-old black man was asphyxiated by white officer Derek Chauvin, who pinned him to the ground, pressing a knee into his neck for more than eight minutes while he was already restrained in handcuffs."

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867219130/george-floyd-independent-autopsy-homicide-by-asphyxia


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> But *the experts'* conclusions differed drastically from those of the county.


The "experts" hired and paid by the family.



Irish Pixie said:


> In charging documents released last week, prosecutors said that preliminary results from an autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."
> 
> However the new report from the medical examiner did not include such language.


Why should they repeat themselves?
The facts wouldn't have changed.

He died from a heart attack.
Had he not been on drugs he'd probably be alive now.
His race had nothing to do with anything.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

If there is a criminal case then let the legal system work. If it does not work as the family thinks it should they have a variety of ways to resolve it. Plenty of lawyers will handle problems at no cost to the family if its apparent that there is grounds. Not one good reason to be protesting at this point. Never ever a reason for the rioting and actions being taken as part of the riots.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> If there is a criminal case then let the legal system work. If it does not work as the family thinks it should they have a variety of ways to resolve it. Plenty of lawyers will handle problems at no cost to the family if its apparent that there is grounds. Not one good reason to be protesting at this point. Never ever a reason for the rioting and actions being taken as part of the riots.


There is a case- "The *Hennepin County Medical Examiner* released a *new* autopsy report Monday, ruling George Floyd's death was a *homicide*. The office said Floyd's heart and lungs stopped functioning "while being restrained" by law enforcement officers.

Floyd died due to "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restrain, and neck compression," according to the report."


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST (noun)
> Meaning:*
> 
> Absence of systole; *failure of the ventricles of the heart to contract* (usually caused by ventricular fibrillation) with consequent absence of the heart beat *leading to oxygen lack and eventually to death*


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## 382664 (May 26, 2017)

My baby was on the ventilator for months as a baby. I remember one week, her breathing sounded clogged and raspy in her chest and I kept asking nurses to suction her to get the mucous out, but nothing was coming out. They would just walked out of the room, not thinking very much about it. Finally, a very intelligent nurse was working for her and she was thinking she needed to come off the ventilator and onto a CPAP and pushed for it, they took out the tube and it was almost completely clogged with dried up yellowish mucous! My daughter was barely getting any oxygen/pressure and was on the ventilator longer because of incompetent doctors and nurses not being able to recognize when tubes are clogged. I still am not happy and 6 1/2 months in the hospital sitting by my daughters bed, watching over her and constantly asking nurses to do their job or do better has taught me that MOST of the people working in the medical field do not truly care about their patients and aren’t doing their job as well as they should! Even when lives are on the line.


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## 382664 (May 26, 2017)

1. It gives health care workers more to do when patients are on a ventilator. 

2. When my daughter was in the hospital there were many nurses that would sit on their computer, text on their phones and talk to each other rather than checking on their patients who could not talk. 

I’m not sure how the situation was for the Covid 19 patients but what I’ve learned from being in the hospital with my daughter for 6 1/2 months was that I can see why many people die, especially when they have an infectious disease and no one would want to come into contact with them, let alone lazy nurses that do the bare minimum for patients in a less dangerous setting.


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## 382664 (May 26, 2017)

Maybe they would die with better nurse/doctor care? Maybe not? No one will ever be able to tell I guess. 

Sometimes I wonder what they would have done to revive my daughter had the tube clogged up entirely, would they have known to check for a clogged tube or just assume her lungs weren’t working anymore and was dying because of that? 

Then later find the clogged tube and throw it away and cover it up like they usually do to avoid lawsuits. Like they did with my brother who had contracted the AIDS virus in the hospital from the blood they had been given them. Then tried covering it up when it gave his weakened body meningitis from traveling to his brain and then 6 months later after we had buried him had my father get tested for the AIDS virus because they said he had tested positive. 16 year old boy, virgin, blood heavily tested because of having a blood disorder.


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