# How do you lunge a horse that ignores the whip?



## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

I have a two year old Paint filly that does pretty well on the lunge line--until she decides the game is over and she wants to do something else (about 3-5 minutes after starting). At that point she slows to a walk or stops and turns toward me, totally ignoring the whip. If she feels like she is done, she even ignores it when I touch her with the whip. She doesn't kick or resist the whip, she just ignores it totally.

What would you do with a horse like this?


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## Kris in MI (May 30, 2002)

Without actually seeing you lunge the horse, it's hard to give specific advice. Your body position plays in here too, as well as how you use the whip. Do you just pop it for noise? Do you tap or tickle her with it? Or do you use it to 'sting' her?

Generally a whip that is used to 'sting' a few times is much more respected and then does not have to be employed so strongly after that. Hard to describe in a few words, but used correctly, it's not abusive.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

If you apply the whip with adequate force, she will not ignore it.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

I know about body position--my 4 yo gelding lunges beautifully, but he has a lot more respect for the whip. I never even have to touch him with the whip. I generally position myself behind the horse's shoulder, with the whip positioned behind the horse. If they need "encouragement" I will swing the whip, and if they need more encouragement I will pop it. If that doesn't do it, I will "sting" them. She will respond to the sting sometimes, but other times she just ignores the sting.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

If you have to use the whip to get her attention (like she's too pushy and needs to learn to back off for instance), then touch her, but if she ignores it, USE it and use it firmly enough right off that she gets the message and learns to respect it. Nagging her - giving her corrections that she doesn't respect and that don't change her behavior - is going to teach her to really disregard correction and make her worse. Remember that another horse playing with her would give her a solid nip or kick to get her attention. You aren't going to ruin her by giving her a real spanking, if you warn her first and don't do it all the time. She needs to learn respect and manners if she's going to be a good horse and enjoyable to own (not to mention safe!).

Edit: Remember that some horses are more sensitive than others. Some need a touch, others a good smack, do what you have to to really get your point across, so you don't have to do it over and over.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Maybe I am not using enough force. Should I keep her on a short line so I can put more force into it?


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

She does not crowd on the leadline, and is not pushy. I just have trouble maintaining forward motion. She is much less sensitive than my gelding.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I never use a whip. I take the end of the lunge line and twirl it in a circle while standing behind the shoulder. Maybe another method to consider? Also works great on a balking horse under saddle...twirl the end of the reins within their sight but don't pop the horse with them. Works every time (for me, anyhow). Keeps the attention focused entirely on you, since your lunge line becomes an extension of YOU.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

I'd snap that balky heifer in the ankles so it HURT. If she ignores the pain, just keep tagging her hind ankles with it; it WILL annoy her enough that she'll change her behavior. Not saying she'll go forward, but ANY change is good change if you use it to your advantage; it just changes their mind-set from "I will do things my way" to " gee, I need to deal with my ankle issue right now". As soon as her mind has been changed, USE that moment of indescision to say "Walk _ON_!" and sting her on the rump. I do NOT use this method on all horses; as was said, some are sensitive enough to simply respond to my body language, no whip needed. BUT, the times I have had to employ _this_ annoyance/pain/annoyance technique has ALWAYS been with fillies.....


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Let's make sure we are talking about a real lunge whip: A lunge whip is at least 5' long, with a 6-8' lash on it. A buggy whip is 5' long with a 12" lash....BIG difference.

You may want to practice your "popping" skills elsewhere; line up some targets (soda cans on a fence!) and stand 16' feet or so off the targets. Practice tagging the cans with the very end of the lash; THAT is what stings!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Start light (lifting the whip) and increase until desired response. If she starts to slow down, start back at the lightest cue and work up until desired response again. Apply as necessary and soon she will move off of that slightest cue. You just have to be able to change gears as needed.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Beccachow: I can't really swing the end of the lunge line because it has a donut on the end. 

Jill, I may have to try the ankle idea. She doesn't seem to care how hard I hit her rump. I am definitely using a lunge whip and not any other type of whip. I believe it is 6' long with a 6' lash. 

southerngurl: I am doing that. The problem is that she responds beautifully without me having to touch her for the first few minutes, then she gets tired of being lunged and just stops. I am trying to figure out how to keep her going after she decides that she doesn't want to do this anymore. She is not showing any of the typical signs of disrespect, and she is attentive, she is just not moving.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Not moving IS disrespect ... she is saying "you can't tell me what to do".

If all else fails and you can't manage the lunge whip effectively, you may want to get someone to help you who can walk closer to the mare while you are lunging her and use a buggy whip on her rear end. 

You cluck or give whatever word you use for her to go forward. If she doesn't respond, you flick the lunge whip. If she doesn't respond, help smacks her ithe buggy whip. My suggestion is to figure out the level of force necessary to instill respect and do whatever is necessary to enforce that.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Sometimes, if you can't really handle a whip well (I can't) it's hard to get one to crack properly. Lunge whips are even harder to use correctly because it's half popper. Still, I don't even use a whip, just the end of the lunge line and body language. Have you tried "pushing" her forward with your body language when she stops? Like, moving with great purpose towards her rear, while being loud, throwing your arms up and yelling "HAW!" or "GIT!" or whatever at her, and swinging that donut at her (no reason you can't use that, btw)? You need to make sure she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is to MOVE! I suspect your problem is a lack of presence on your part, and SFM is right - she has no respect for you. So demand it! Do what is necessary to make her understand that YOU determine when she will move and when she will quit. Don't worry about precision or speed, just response. You won't need a whip for that, watch a lead mare make a lesser herd member move - it only takes a look or the tilt of an ear.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

saanengirl said:


> Beccachow: I can't really swing the end of the lunge line because it has a donut on the end.
> 
> Jill, I may have to try the ankle idea. She doesn't seem to care how hard I hit her rump. I am definitely using a lunge whip and not any other type of whip. I believe it is 6' long with a 6' lash.
> 
> southerngurl: I am doing that. The problem is that she responds beautifully without me having to touch her for the first few minutes, then she gets tired of being lunged and just stops. I am trying to figure out how to keep her going after she decides that she doesn't want to do this anymore. She is not showing any of the typical signs of disrespect, and she is attentive, she is just not moving.


You're just going to have to continue to up the incentive until she gets doing again, and IMMEDIATELY take it away when she goes. You've got to mean it and know that you're going to do what it takes, but go right back to easy when she does right. It's less about giving her a whack and more about your being willing to give the whacks as needed. The more willing you are to get "mean" the less you end up having to be. You'll get it if you keep working at it. It'd be best if you could watch someone and see it, it's harder to explain.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

2horses said:


> watch a lead mare make a lesser herd member move - it only takes a look or the tilt of an ear.


Yes ... but you may not have seen the way they establish this kind of respect. I've had the opportunity to observe herd behavior over years of handling mare herds. Believe me, to GET this kind of respect, the boss mare decorates a good many ribcages and rumps with hoofprints and bite marks before it gets to this point.

The "look" ... or the "nose flip" ... which moves a less dominant horse instantly is a product of two things. Either the less dominant animal is a naturally submissive sort who is easily dominated or it is the the established respect thanks to one or more serious trouncings. I've actually seen a herd mare hit another mare with her shoulder and "roll" her if it was a matter of ongoing disrespect.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I guess I should have elaborated, that the lead mare look is the goal, not to be expected until respect is established. I agree, she needs to get after this horse in whatever manner necessary to get that done. And it may very well take a whack or twenty to make that happen!


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## waygr00vy (Aug 7, 2005)

Yes, I agree with everyone else. You need to increase the pressure and get firmer with the whip until you get a response, then back off. Now, I have come across a draft cross or two that seemed to be completely oblivious to any kind of pain or annoyance caused by a whip. That can be quite frustrating! However most horses get the picture pretty quick!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Another idea is putting a plastic bag on the end of the stick and swinging that. She may spook around at first, just ignore it. All you're concerned about is forward movement, so reward it even if it's silly and demand it when it stops. She'll line out.


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## neal68 (May 29, 2005)

check out Pat Parelli's Natural Horse-Man-Ship. he is really good with horses and his tecnique is very effictive and not cruel at all (no whip).


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Pat Parelli has some interesting ideas and is a good horse trainer, however I do think I should mention that he doesn't hesitate to firmly correct a horse that needs it. I used to watch his shows quite a lot, his timing, pressure and release is very good and not all that different than any other good clinician. His line of talk and his ego became just too much for me. I also noticed that he works with sensitive horses and fearful ones, I don't see him working with balky, lazy or laid back ones. What he does and talks about works great with the horses I see him train. It may be that he has methods I'm forgetting or don't know about to get a horse to move that just refuses to do so. I'm pretty sure he also talks about how the lead mare will kick or bite to get her position and I've seen him twirl the rope and sting a horse's bottom when needed. There's no way we are going to harm a horse in normal training more than it's momma did to teach it manners. 

I have to admit that I am assuming the OP is not going to abuse her horse. It is NOT cruel to use a whip to train a horse. It would be cruel to use a whip to abuse a horse (to just whip it without giving it an "out" or out of anger and not to train), but there is really quite a huge difference. Whatever method you use, at times you need to be able to get the horse's attention and respect. It can be done with a rope halter and lead rope or a whip or whatever you need to do.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> Yes ... but you may not have seen the way they establish this kind of respect. I've had the opportunity to observe herd behavior over years of handling mare herds. Believe me, to GET this kind of respect, the boss mare decorates a good many ribcages and rumps with hoofprints and bite marks before it gets to this point.
> 
> The "look" ... or the "nose flip" ... which moves a less dominant horse instantly is a product of two things. Either the less dominant animal is a naturally submissive sort who is easily dominated or it is the the established respect thanks to one or more serious trouncings. I've actually seen a herd mare hit another mare with her shoulder and "roll" her if it was a matter of ongoing disrespect.



I completely agree. 

This horse isn't listening to you when you're giving the look or even laying back your ears, so it's time to nip her. 
Still won't listen? Then you need to squeal, turn your butt on her and nail her in the ribs. (Figuratively speaking, of course)
YOU are boss mare and she needs to figure that out.

It's highly unlikely you're ever going to be harsher than what a boss mare in a herd would do to get this filly's attitude in line.


Clinicians: DH & I saw Clinton Anderson in Denver a few years back. A born and bred working cowboy, DH didn't put a whole lot of stock in the horse whisper stuff. 
Cinton's "helper" was working a horse while he was lecturing and the horse wouldn't get out of her space. She did all the milder whispering and finally he said, "Knee that horse in the gut!" 
She did. People got up and walked out because of the cruelty. Clinton pointed out that that 120 pound girl couldn't possibly do more damage than a 1000 pound boss-mare. 

DH said, "Ah. This guy actually knows HORSES." lol


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

GrannyCarol said:


> It is NOT cruel to use a whip to train a horse. It would be cruel to use a whip to abuse a horse (to just whip it without giving it an "out" or out of anger and not to train), but there is really quite a huge difference.


I agree.
Whipping your horse because she's confused, or you're frustrated is not training. 

But giving her a quick whop (or three) on the butt because she's ignoring you, is simply "increasing pressure."


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

I think I may need to work on my arm strength and/or work on being able to aim that little string on the end of the whip precisely. She just acts like she doesn't feel the whip. My other horse just has to see the whip and he is ready to move. She doesn't have nearly the same sensitivity. I guess my question was really about how to sensitize a horse to the whip when she doesn't see any point in being afraid of it.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

saanengirl said:


> I guess my question was really about how to sensitize a horse to the whip when she doesn't see any point in being afraid of it.


Again, use the whip with sufficient force to make it unpleasant enough that she does not want it to happen again. Respect ... for you and for the "unpleasantness" of the whip.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

There are two keys to sensitization. 

1-start lightly
2- move up in intensity until you are fully effective

This way the lightest cue triggers the response of the effective level of intensity.


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