# What keeps folks from going back to work?



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Cut off the handouts, they'll go back to work. Don't incentivize laziness at the expense of working people.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

kinderfeld said:


> Cut off the handouts, they'll go back to work. Don't incentivize laziness at the expense of working people.


I think you are absolutely right the rest are just excuses a friend manages a cheese plant , with no experience if you can show up , pass a drug test and be 18 you can make 16.10 an hour , he has 25 open positions over 3 shifts.

you also need to be able to drive because the dairy is 40 miles from a bus line only a mile from the nearest town. not that there are any rentals everyone left the city to take lower cost rentals in small towns.

where my wife works they are hiring out in the plant , pass a drug test which can't be all that hard since they had a temp OD in the bathroom 2 weeks after starting , have a pulse and be able to lift 50 pounds and show up on time for work.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

My mom told me yesterday I'd lived a charmed life. Didn't have to punch a clock in 30 the last years or raise children. I never knew!!!


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

_All_ unemployed are only waiting for handouts to end?

I rummaged through some old threads, and found a 2011 gem. Possibly "one more hurdle" to jump through ...









What, Now to Get a Job You Already Need to Have a Job?


Claudia Ricci: What, Now to Get a Job You Already Need to Have a Job? by on July 31, 2011 Huffington Postâ¦ Beverly Bowne, who lives in the Bronx, worked for 28 years as a billing coordinator for a printing company in New York City. And then in 2009, she and a number of other employees at...




www.homesteadingtoday.com





Hurdle #249 ... must be currently employed, to apply ...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Where hubby works management is hiring maintenance people with degrees but no experience. These new people don't know their tools or how to use them. The company was more concerned about engineering degrees than actual machine maintenance experience. They have turned down applicants with experience and no engineering degree.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> Where hubby works management is hiring maintenance people with degrees but no experience. These new people don't know their tools or how to use them. The company was more concerned about engineering degrees than actual machine maintenance experience. They have turned down applicants with experience and no engineering degree.


Yes, most employers want a degree these days. Previous experience is often more practical. And is the job well paying enough to warrant a degree? Many are not. Sometimes employers want to have their cake and eat it too. Employees are becoming disillusioned.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 5/14/21 12:59 AM CDST

I find it funny how the article in the link lists the need of more digital jobs needed. Those 5 million digital jobs better be in white hat hacker cyber security considering about 3/4 of the folks I know who transitioned to working from home have all had at least one day each week where their network connections malfunctioned.

Three of them said that even working remotely from home, they all looked forward to their work network freeze ups so they got a part day off with pay.

As far as the brick and mortar stores go, the owner of a franchise restaurant I know told me that although she as all places that were trying to hire staff after the bans were lifted here in April had trouble getting staff to return, in the past 10 days , except for one older returning employee of the ones she had to furlough last year, she has totally restaffed with high school / college staff.

She told me that not only is she fully staffed with extra staff, the majority asked if they could work part time as young staff did before the pandemic, but many of the college age applicants were interested in full time employment and asked if when they returned to class in the fall if flexible hours were a possibility.

She told me that the majority are working well and the few not doing quite well , her and the other three adults on the two shifts are giving the young ones extra attention during their probationary time like is normal in their industry sector.

I read in the paper last week that since the state restrictions expired that the state unemployment rate is down to a little over 3% and because of the drop, our governor has suspended the state level supplemental pandemic unemployment funds to encourage more folks to look for work at the places that are now hiring.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

RJ2019 said:


> Yes, most employers want a degree these days. Previous experience is often more practical. And is the job well paying enough to warrant a degree? Many are not. Sometimes employers want to have their cake and eat it too. Employees are becoming disillusioned.


I don't know what engineering degrees cost these days but the job pays close to $25 an hour plus decent benefits. 

When your mantenance technician doesn't know what a nut driver is, you have a problem. All they know how to do is make program changes on the computers. That just makes things worse when you have mechanical issues like broken bolts or misadjusted stoppers.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

It's the same in construction management. Many want a degree or else. I would rather have a thirty year under the belt high school dropout than a degreed grad fresh from MIT. 

There is a place for both of these type of people. The thirty year guy may not work out as well as the grad. But over all the experience one is the better choice.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

It seems like the need to fill an opening at a company is similar to selling a house:

if your house is in a highly desired location, you can get top dollar; if the job opening is _in demand_, people are in line to be hired and the employer can pick and choose.
if for whatever reason your house isn't selling, you lower the price to the point where it will sell; if the job opening can't be filled, you raise the offering for it (more pay, more benefits, something).
there are those who won't sell their house if the price "isn't right" for them ... they choose to hang onto it; if the job opening won't fill at the pay/benefits being offered, some won't do what it takes to fill that position ... the position(s) sit vacant.
In the house market, I don't think we'd think twice about someone complaining that their house "never sells" because we all know that to move a house, you just need to find the right price at which it moves (and be willing to sell it).

In the job market, it's pretty much the same ... if an employer is complaining about "not being able to fill job openings", my thoughts are that, for whatever reasons on the employer's part, the right pay/benefits point hasn't been reached.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Another way of looking at the article is, what can we do to "grease the skids" at both ends?

As Danaus29 rightly points out, a degree doesn't necessarily get an employer what they need; sometimes, a ton of experience might not do it either, if a degree is critical for the job. A series of certifications (basic office skills, minimum tool skills, etc.) should fill the gap, vs relying solely on a degree.

The article points out ways that certifications can become more of a benefit for both sides (employer and employee).


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## wil14 (Sep 13, 2020)

Honestly I think we should be paying part of payroll for employers that have strategically relevant companies in the US. It's hard to insist they simply raise wages that have been stagnant for so long to compete with unemployment because until the market evens out we'd basically be forcing them out of business. 

Things like manufacturing have compounding benefits because once you have local sources for some materials, it becomes easier to do manufacturing for other items in the US. This is a problem the government created by incentivizing offshoring so it's appropriate they work to fix it. It is really something we can only address collectively. All this talk of service work, white collar work and programming seems like nonsense to me. We need a cultural shift back to actual production. 

A high speed rail project to eliminate the joke that is amtrak might be a good idea too... dams and stuff like that. Think of how crazy it is that we invest nothing in a real rail system and instead focus on self-driving trucks and cars. 
It's all pie in the sky though. The US as a nation is dying and probably needs to.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

I don't know where you guys live, but here, getting a job starting at $18 an hour or more is ridiculously easy and as other people have said, the only real requirements are being able to get there (hopefully on time once in awhile) and knowing the difference between your ass and a hat. If you actually work hard, you'll be promoted to more money very quickly.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

wil14 said:


> Honestly I think we should be paying part of payroll for employers that have strategically relevant companies in the US. It's hard to insist they simply raise wages that have been stagnant for so long to compete with unemployment because until the market evens out we'd basically be forcing them out of business.
> 
> Things like manufacturing have compounding benefits because once you have local sources for some materials, it becomes easier to do manufacturing for other items in the US. This is a problem the government created by incentivizing offshoring so it's appropriate they work to fix it. It is really something we can only address collectively. All this talk of service work, white collar work and programming seems like nonsense to me. We need a cultural shift back to actual production.
> 
> ...


I'm struggling to see that the answer to anything is throwing more tax payer money at it.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> I don't know what engineering degrees cost these days but the job pays close to $25 an hour plus decent benefits.
> 
> When your mantenance technician doesn't know what a nut driver is, you have a problem. All they know how to do is make program changes on the computers. That just makes things worse when you have mechanical issues like broken bolts or misadjusted stoppers.


My two year old knows what a nut driver is!! In fact, he lost one the other day and I would like to find it. 
Those expensive educations sometimes don't add up. Engineering is a bachelor's degree at minimum. This is coming from someone very close to getting a low level degree.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

If a company is in an area where $18/hr is equal to $50/hr elsewhere, I think I'd agree that the job _should_ get filled; if there isn't a line of folks waiting to be hired, something is up. It was easy to read that the employer has a scheme of "this is starting pay, and _theoretically_, you'll get more if ..."

In my 40+ years of working, theoretical money was never as enticing as actual starting pay ...

It is too easy to say "it must be the employees' fault" that this job opening isn't getting filled, in the same way of saying "the house buyer didn't want to pay my outrageous, above-market price ... how dare they refuse it".

If it isn't getting filled at $18/hr, and there is no line of employees waiting to take that job, we're back to trying to analyze why the employer priced the job at that rate ... without lots of details, who here can analyze things properly?

Without those details, I have to fall back to "when the price is right, the product (job opening) will move" ...


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## kinnb (Oct 23, 2011)

this is one other little bit to consider too just at present. many of the child care centers out there are not yet back at full capacity, so "normally" working parents may not yet have that back. I do see that shifting as things continue to move forward. 

also _raises hand_ I am one of those people on disability who would DO ANYTHING to be able to work again. it was the hardest damn decision I ever had to make and it still, 11 years later after federal adjudication, sucks NOT to be able to work. I wasn't raised not to work at anything and everything I could. 

Peace,
Kyrie, Tao Blue SD AKC CGC CGCA CGCU TKN PAT, Deja Blue SD AKC CGC CGCU TKN PAT


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

kinnb said:


> this is one other little bit to consider too just at present. many of the child care centers out there are not yet back at full capacity, so "normally" working parents may not yet have that back. I do see that shifting as things continue to move forward.
> 
> also _raises hand_ I am one of those people on disability who would DO ANYTHING to be able to work again. it was the hardest damn decision I ever had to make and it still, 11 years later after federal adjudication, sucks NOT to be able to work. I wasn't raised not to work at anything and everything I could.
> 
> ...


Some people can't and some don't want to. A friend has a litter of Labadoroodle puppies born a few weeks ago. $2500 each I must be slipping!!! Heck I know I don't spell well. Cows don't even compare to those numbers...


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

If it was me and i was making more to stay home. Id stay home as long as unemployment lasted if I was getting that extra increase. Only time i ever used unemployment it sure was not enough to live on. Been a long time but was maybe 150 a week.


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## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

TripleD said:


> Some people can't and some don't want to. A friend has a litter of Labadoroodle puppies born a few weeks ago. $2500 each I must be slipping!!! Heck I know I don't spell well. Cows don't even compare to those numbers...


The Amish are complaining that horses won't make that much.
How many of these unfilled jobs are women who found that staying home with the kids is better than the job they worked?


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

people get by.

give them free wage and free housing and they will get by without working.

give them a limited time of free wage and at the end of it they will suddenly find a job to pay for some housing and get by.

it’s really very simple. No one needs any certificates?

Paul


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## wil14 (Sep 13, 2020)

todd_xxxx said:


> I'm struggling to see that the answer to anything is throwing more tax payer money at it.


They're going to spend money. They'll send it overseas or spend it on a growing population of people not originally from here. The only thing that failing to advocate resources for your people gets you, is nothing. Your money is spent. Do you want to participate in advocating for _how _or just let others at the table dole it out for themselves?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

wil14 said:


> They're going to spend money. They'll send it overseas or spend it on a growing population of people not originally from here. The only thing that failing to advocate resources for your people gets you, is nothing. Your money is spent. Do you want to participate in advocating for _how _or just let others at the table dole it out for themselves?


The part you're missing is that they aren't going to spend less on anything else. If you spend money on the things you mentioned, it won't be instead of something else, it will be in addition to it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

RJ2019 said:


> My two year old knows what a nut driver is!! In fact, he lost one the other day and I would like to find it.
> Those expensive educations sometimes don't add up. Engineering is a bachelor's degree at minimum. This is coming from someone very close to getting a low level degree.


I think this place has a minimum of associate degree for that position. They have no current ads for the position so I can't check it.

I told hubby he should start telling the newbies that his wife knows more about tools than they do. One didn't even know what a dolly is!


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> I don't know what engineering degrees cost these days but the job pays close to $25 an hour plus decent benefits.
> 
> When your mantenance technician doesn't know what a nut driver is, you have a problem. All they know how to do is make program changes on the computers. That just makes things worse when you have mechanical issues like broken bolts or misadjusted stoppers.


I was turned down for a maintenance supervisor pposition because I did not have a degree. I ONLY had 15 years of experience and went through a three year apprenticeship.....


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

$15/hr on unemployment (MI $325 + Federal $300) with 10200 being tax free is preventing people from seeking a job.

We cannot get people (plastic extrusion) to show up, let alone work.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Poor morales and laziness is probably a factor also.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Cannot speak for MI of course, as I live in CO.

What I recall in this area is at least a one-year timeline of pandemic turmoil (march '20 to march '21), and only a subset of months of state-funded unemployment, coupled with (when it was available) a concurrent set of fed money, doled out by the state (they decided when one would also get fed money). Typically around 4 to 6 months, depending on how your "balance" numbers worked out (what the state said was available, after all the paperwork and check-in with past employers).

I suspect that, with 50 states, there are 50 different ways of doing state unemployment, with none of them being easy or fun to apply for ... the state of Colorado had crashing websites, long delays while they tried to sort through pandemic issues with not enough staff, and byzantine "fact checking" that still had to be done. Other services declined while state employees were moved around to meet pandemic-induced unemployment applications. In our state, if you got through in 2020, you were kicked back out again in 2021, to permit the state to implement their "new" unemployment system ... many folks gave up, when they found they had to reapply again, as if they never applied before.

So, massive amounts of employees across the country were kicked to the curb, with rent and everything else due each month, and months to go to get onto their states' unemployment system and try to get some fraction of their monthly income to keep subsisting. A year's worth of heartache to get through; a few months of unemployment received, if you "won the lottery", and got onto the state's puny unemployment system. I'm not aware of any state that gave these folks a true lottery of 100% or more of their pay, for the entire timeline of a year, assuming they got through the maze that is unemployment, and actually got _any_ money. Even if they got close to 100%, and this didn't happen in my state (the system is designed to not give you 100% or more), they only got it for a handful of months. One's unemployment "balance" is now exhausted, and you won't be back anytime soon ... in the meantime, the rent and everything else is still due over that year or more of pandemic timeline.

Are we really suggesting that such madness that is the _unemployment system_ (truly a small safety net) is _keeping_ folks from wanting to return to work? People want to suffer, in order to make some fraction of their former pay, from employers who kicked them to the curb in the first place, and who, most likely, won't be bringing them back?

I'm thinking there were plenty of folks who, more likely, figured out how to work around an employment system that regularly kicks them to the curb ... there are also those who are waiting to see what changes in this equation that is employment. Will companies bend and meet in the middle, or just be outraged over employees that have the temerity to not want to return to such a system? Will employees be fighting over the chance to return to that company?

My guess is still that, if a company can't get employees, there is always a problem with the rate/benefits being offered. You can't offer peanuts to get the low-end of the worker scale, and not be surprised that these workers have problems; I know I can't offer up peanuts to my tool vendors, and be surprised when I don't get good tools.

It's too easy to say it's the "morals and laziness" _only_ of the employees, or that "employees won't show up for work, let alone work", while not talking about the companies involved ... until more details come to light, a reasonable person would conclude that the knife most likely cuts both ways.

A company could work on recruitment and retention such that employees want to stick with the company ... indeed, even fight over the opportunity (form long lines), and the company would be _in control of the whole process_; no need to blame others. Or, the company can point out that it's the employees', and now the states' or fed's fault, and continue to not get the employees they need.

Let the peanut crowd fight over the unemployment benefits, dubious as those benefits are ... focus on those employees who have moved beyond peanuts, who have or are willing to get certificates of achievement in what the company needs and where a company is willing to work on such certificates with the employees. Reasonable employees are waiting for the companies to improve their recruitment and retention processes, or ... gasp ... avoiding those companies altogether where peanuts are all that's on the menu.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Cannot speak for MI of course, as I live in CO.
> 
> What I recall in this area is at least a one-year timeline of pandemic turmoil (march '20 to march '21), and only a subset of months of state-funded unemployment, coupled with (when it was available) a concurrent set of fed money, doled out by the state (they decided when one would also get fed money). Typically around 4 to 6 months, depending on how your "balance" numbers worked out (what the state said was available, after all the paperwork and check-in with past employers).
> 
> ...


if you want to eat, sleep with a roof over your head, have some fun money, have some health care, have some retirement......

you should have some income.

you can inherit it, work for it, or steal it from others.

the original unemployment was a small stopgap program to tide a person over between jobs, and was a fringe benefit that made some sense.

the economic shock of the Covid virus and the govt mandates required some initial help to both business andwork force to get through to the other side.

as of 3-6 months ago, we figured things out and should be using those months transitioning back to the normal unemployment and end the free housing. These stopgap measures, while needed briefly, are very detrimental to our economy, country, and national fortitude and should have been ended some time ago.

Your view that people should sit around on their rear pondering whether they should work or not for endless months yet is alarming to me. If you wanna eat and you are able bodied, get a job. Get off your rear. Get off the excess assistance. Get back to the normal brief, transitional unemployment we used to have. Now.

one has to be blind to see the good jobs not being filled because the govt pays people to not work, and they get free housing to boot. This is ruining what good things were left of this country.

Terrible thing.

Paul


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Might be a round about way for biden and administration to get that wage increase that they have been trying for. Have to pay more than the unemployment check. Even if it is a quarter or third more than it was a year or so ago.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

A lot of states are going back to showing that you have applied for 3 jobs a week to stay on it now.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

That’s not hard to do. That works out to a hundred dollars or way more per application. I need a job like that.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> That’s not hard to do. That works out to a hundred dollars or way more per application. I need a job like that.


You are low profile too if you just want to get by??? People at the shelter are now paying $100 per week here. One way or the other... Two meals a day, check in at 6pm and church on Sunday... I feel you want to do more than just get by...


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

rambler said:


> Your view that people should sit around on their rear pondering whether they should work or not for endless months yet is alarming to me. If you wanna eat and you are able bodied, get a job. Get off your rear. Get off the excess assistance. Get back to the normal brief, transitional unemployment we used to have. Now.
> 
> one has to be blind to see the good jobs not being filled because the govt pays people to not work, and they get free housing to boot. This is ruining what good things were left of this country.


Agreed ... the country might indeed be heading towards a ruinous state of affairs, when everyone only has a hammer in their toolbox, and everyone else looks like a nail.

Why come together to solve problems, when we can just slap a label on somebody or something?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

kinderfeld said:


> Cut off the handouts, they'll go back to work. Don't incentivize laziness at the expense of working people.


Is it laziness or a smart personal business decision? Many people would have a lot more money left in their pocket on unemployment because their car, wardrobe, daycare, other expenses become nil. Throw in Covid risk and it's hard to blame them.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> Is it laziness or a smart personal business decision? Many people would have a lot more money left in their pocket on unemployment because their car, wardrobe, daycare, other expenses become nil. Throw in Covid risk and it's hard to blame them.


I never find it hard to blame able bodied, lazy ass people living off of handouts.
They're parasites.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

kinderfeld said:


> I never find it hard to blame able bodied, lazy ass people living off of handouts.
> They're parasites.


I could quote Jesse Ventura from a movie but I would be banned...


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

kinderfeld said:


> I never find it hard to blame able bodied, lazy ass people living off of handouts.
> They're parasites.


Unemployment benefits are not a handout. It is insurance with premiums paid by employers with the benefits paid thru the states, with federal dollars kicked in during extreme times. Totally different deal than SNAP, TANF, etc.

You have to have recent work history to get unemployment, not just be breathing.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> Is it laziness or a smart personal business decision? Many people would have a lot more money left in their pocket on unemployment because their car, wardrobe, daycare, other expenses become nil. Throw in Covid risk and it's hard to blame them.


I'm almost immuned to it . It's not the covid risk. Been around too long seeing a new car ,tv and appliances. That's the rental business. Driving a 1990 because I choose to . I Don't deal with excuses or play baby games with the tenants...


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MO_cows said:


> Is it laziness or a smart personal business decision? Many people would have a lot more money left in their pocket on unemployment because their car, wardrobe, daycare, other expenses become nil. Throw in Covid risk and it's hard to blame them.



I understand their reasoning. I also can blame them, it’s a sad state of affairs that so many think its ok to live in such a manner or provide the means to do so.


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## Offgrid K and A (Apr 29, 2021)

I've been in the electrical trade for 20 years and we have always been hurting for guys. Last year was the worst year i've seen. People wanted to go and stay on government handouts and didn't want to come to work. Now with the price of material and the time to get it, there is less work for said people even if they wanted to come back.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This country's economy is basd on supply and demand. Applies to labor, too. If there are few doctors and a great need, wages for doctors go up. If there are many no and low skilled people seeking few available jobs, the wages for them goes down. But when the government got involved, it got out of wack. Let's start with LBJ's Great Society. The non-working were given free housing, free food, free everything. More babies and more money. But if there was an able bodied man in the house, he was expected to support his family with a job. It failed as single parent homes jumped beyond 70%. Welfare gets more popular each year as we go into third generational welfare recipients. Moving factories overseas avoids the high labor costs in the US. Our government has created trade deals that has cost millions of workers their jobs and robbed millions more of the opportunity for a job. Fewer jobs in this country depresses wages. Decades of the government turning a blind eye to the invasion of mostly unskilled laborers from all over the world, but mostly from Mexico. Flooding the country with unskilled laborers robs this country's low skilled laborers of employment opportunity. Two years ago, we were starting to see great jumps in new jobs, record low unemployment for minorities. How? The government was rolling back unnecessary regulation, the government was threatening tariffs if China, Mexico and Canada didn't abide by equal treatment trade deals. The government cracked down on illegal immigration. The government rolled back income taxes. We saw the improvement


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nobody wants to work! Pilgrims pride starts out at 17.50 per hour. If you don't like the work there's always welfare. I never knew many people in my family who didn't care to provide for the family... Times change ...


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> Nobody wants to work! Pilgrims pride starts out at 17.50 per hour. If you don't like the work there's always welfare. I never knew many people in my family who didn't care to provide for the family... Times change ...


I carried a lawn mower to the John Deere place. In two miles there was five help wanted signs. There's a reconnect coming!?!? Enjoy the ride...


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

Taco Bell in our two horse town is starting at 14.25 an hour and full time.

I think the smart kids with no unemployment option are going to go to work.

When the gravy train runs out, they will be employed and the 20-30 year Olds won't be able to find good paying work.

Around here, 14.25 is a decent wage, especially for an 18 year old kid.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

With the school year coming to an end here many employers are conducting job fairs with immediate openings. High school students and those who want to work now should have no problem getting hired. In 3 months it will all change and no jobs will be available.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> With the school year coming to an end here many employers are conducting job fairs with immediate openings. High school students and those who want to work now should have no problem getting hired. In 3 months it will all change and no jobs will be available.


That's what I think too.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mom just found out that the only Chinese restaurant within 10 miles of her, is doing take out only. Not because of health mandates but because they cannot get people to staff the restaurant section.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Majority of examples I've seen in this thread about "work _is_ available" are jobs at the lower end of the scale ... perhaps best described as the service industry? If you are only interested in seeing those jobs around you filled, you might be missing the bigger picture.

As pointed out by other threads, what kind of "chip-making jobs" do we want in this country _for our kids_ ... entry-level service jobs making "potato chips", or mid-level manufacturing jobs making "computer chips", and such? If only entry-level service jobs, then we've already lost on the global stage.

If you consider all of the mid- and high-level jobs (blue- or white-collar), the effects initially discussed in this thread really come into play ... everyone kicked to the curb, careers in free-fall with no easy damage recovery, etc. There is so much keeping them from "returning to work", and it isn't the "labels" being tossed around. One reply initiated discussion about a "manufacturing" (mid-level) job, with several responses ... that was good back & forth.

The lower-end jobs should be the arena primarily for students first getting into the job market, not as 2nd or 3rd jobs to feed a family of four, because you can't get back into, or even find, the mid- or upper-jobs. I personally hope that the jobs at the lower end of the scale are not getting filled because folks are finally getting wise to company tricks in _that_ arena. Part-time so we don't have to pay health insurance, no career path, etc.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Majority of examples I've seen in this thread about "work _is_ available" are jobs at the lower end of the scale ... perhaps best described as the service industry? If you are only interested in seeing those jobs around you filled, you might be missing the bigger picture.
> 
> As pointed out by other threads, what kind of "chip-making jobs" do we want in this country _for our kids_ ... entry-level service jobs making "potato chips", or mid-level manufacturing jobs making "computer chips", and such? If only entry-level service jobs, then we've already lost on the global stage.
> 
> ...


I get what your are saying but you don't get what we are saying. 

A job is a stepping stone to a better job. You either work your way up or out to a better one. You can't just expect to walk in at the top. 

Would you say that a person is mentally healthier being productive or sitting on the couch petting the dog? People need to be needed or they will eventually crack. 

When this runs out, the ones who got off the couch first will thrive better than the ones that didn't.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Too broad of a paint stroke ... if we don't dig into the details, we can't sort things.

Let's see ... mental-health ... if one had a company that just kicked you to the curb, and this happens over and over again in our country, would you want to go back into that meat-grinder? Interesting question, given the definition for insanity. It could be that folks are waiting for a change in this rigged game, where all the rules _and_ the banker is against you, until they can see that they have a better chance?

Entry jobs ... Not all jobs are stair-steps ... at the low-end, you don't stair-step up to mid- or higher, because McD's doesn't train you to step into mid-level jobs, only sideways into other service jobs. Given education, experience, and many other "requirements", perhaps only retraining (and ... let's say ... _certifications_) would break the cycle. In this country, retraining _after you've been kicked to the curb_ is on you.

In either of the above cases, most employers could care less, other than to "sit in the corner-office, petting its mascot, and complaining about the lack of trained employees", many of which it kicked to the curb.

Note that I am not saying all of this _just_ to be argumentative ... I have two kids approaching working age ... they won't be taking the meat-grinder path. It's "learn the company nasty tricks" (to avoid them), certifications out the wazoo (because degrees are an expensive joke), and if at all possible, avoid the service industry (be self-reliant) ... the food alone will kill you, if the service doesn't get you first.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

mreynolds said:


> I get what your are saying but you don't get what we are saying.
> 
> A job is a stepping stone to a better job. You either work your way up or out to a better one. You can't just expect to walk in at the top.
> 
> ...


I agree that a job is a stepping stone, but job qualification requirements are out of line with this. If an employer wants you to have a degree for a burger flipping job, for instance, then a management position may well be warranted. Why go to the trouble of getting a degree for a bottom of the barrel job? I am seeing more and more that the quality of the job offered is not in alignment with the job requirements.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I never made $15 an hour as a machine operator for a financial statement production company. Like I said previously, at $15 an hour I wish I could go back to work!

It's not just entry level, go nowhere jobs available. I have seen signs for apartment maintenance services, lawn care services, truck drivers, industrial maintenance, hvac and many other positions available. Just check monster.com for your area and you will see many jobs available.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

There are 8 million open jobs right now.

You can see what kind of jobs here








Table 1. Job openings levels and rates by industry and region, seasonally adjusted - 2022 M10 Results







www.bls.gov


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Do we need to quote Twain on statistics?

It is interesting to rummage through "open jobs" via any job board ... you'll begin to see the shenanigans that goes on at both the company level and the industry level.

Insane job descriptions: "Must have a degree ..." coupled with "... must be able to lift 50 lbs". The last guy did everything we trained _him_ to do ... why don't you have all of these _same_ things specific to our job, plus the kitchen sink, even though only we need all of these requirements, and we trained the last guy? Location: "We have jobs in our part of the country" but "we won't pay relocation", still, you should uproot and "try for our job!". Age: How old are you, again? If I let all these good folks and resumes go by, there's bound to be a cheaper hire. Finally: I know I kicked everybody to the curb before, but shirley someone is starving by now, and wants the same treatment?

Countless other examples that are just sad ...

I had to fall back to: if the job was priced right (good pay, good benefits, good reviews), it would move. If it isn't moving, it isn't priced right. That should always be coupled with "grow your own" (retrain, recruit, retain), which our employment system doesn't seem to embrace.

I haven't found many other causes or mechanism that seems to explain why a job at the mid- or high-level categories remains open, when the details are dug into, and the shenanigans exposed to daylight.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Too broad of a paint stroke ... if we don't dig into the details, we can't sort things.
> 
> Let's see ... mental-health ... if one had a company that just kicked you to the curb, and this happens over and over again in our country, would you want to go back into that meat-grinder? Interesting question, given the definition for insanity. It could be that folks are waiting for a change in this rigged game, where all the rules _and_ the banker is against you, until they can see that they have a better chance?
> 
> ...



But that is too broad a stroke too. 

I know 3 people that started out in fast food with no degree and went on to either manage that same store and/or get A franchise. The other one went on to manage the food service at a college making 80k a year. Retired 10 years ago at 50.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

RJ2019 said:


> I agree that a job is a stepping stone, but job qualification requirements are out of line with this. If an employer wants you to have a degree for a burger flipping job, for instance, then a management position may well be warranted. Why go to the trouble of getting a degree for a bottom of the barrel job? I am seeing more and more that the quality of the job offered is not in alignment with the job requirements.


I'm with you on the degree thing. That degree doesn't make you a good employee. I said as much in another thread. Too many people are degreed and delivering pizza. 

That's not all the fault of business but also the fault of government. Making it so easy to go into hock for life had made a degree worth much less.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Do we need to quote Twain on statistics?
> 
> It is interesting to rummage through "open jobs" via any job board ... you'll begin to see the shenanigans that goes on at both the company level and the industry level.
> 
> ...


You sure are smart


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Exceptions to every rule ... I don't believe we'll get the country turned around by relying on McD's. 3 may have made it ... some "real number" may have made it ... the majority are worker bees to be used up and replaced, even while objecting to the quality of the replacements.

Or ... they are working 3 of these McD jobs, trying to feed their family of four.

Is it best to leave that industry to the high-school crowd, or to be embarrassed that a fellow countryman has to work 3 of these to raise their family? I don't have the answers, either ...


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

So... you are saying that sitting on your ass and letting the government keep paying more and more of your way is a good thing.

Got it.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Don't believe I said that, but there could be an "echo chamber" effect? The echos might be masking any _original_ suggestions ...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Why aren't people returning to work? Well, when do people go to the drinking fountain? Yup, when they get thirsty. Jobs aren't different. 

Many, many years ago, I was a Supervisor at a stamping plant, making car parts. When car sales were slow, we had to lay off workers After a few weeks, we'd call them back. The best employees had found better jobs and the worst employees were what we got. 
If the government had stayed out of the way, that's what would have happened. The government gave the working class a taste of what the multi-generational welfare recipient already knew. If you don't want to work,the government will pay your bills. 

As a neighbor called out to me as I was about to get into my car and go work a midnight shift at a local prison, "Hey, want a steak?". I declined, "I'm headed to work." To which he replied, " Work? Only fools work." Well, I put in another 25 years working there, took another job and worked another 15 years. Spent a fortune on fuel and vehicles going to work, bought my own housing and utilities, spent a small fortune on college educations for my children, even bought my own cell phone. But while I was busy working double shifts, growing my own food, cutting firewood on my own land, millions of others lived long happy lives getting that stuff free. The frosting on that cake is the fact that while providing for myself, I was also taxed to provide for those that don't work.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Where you you guys get some of this stuff? McDonalds is not asking for a degree to get a job. Fast foods jobs are NOT dead end, and the do train people to move into management positions. Show up, work hard, you'll be shift manager, and then manager, and then have your own store if you want to. My friend works at our local gas station chain, Kwik Trip, and has been there 7 years. She makes $70,000 a year. She doesn't have a degree. Her mother did the same thing, at the same gas station chain, and retired at 56 with full retirement and over $300k in stock shares. No degree. As I have said over and over, I can get anyone that wants to work a job right now starting at $20 an hour, no degree, no drug test, no questions asked. Just show up for work, and work.



50ShadesOfDirt said:


> It could be that folks are waiting for a change in this rigged game, where all the rules _and_ the banker is against you, until they can see that they have a better chance?


This touches on the true issue in my mind. The "oh poor me" victimhood mentality where everyone is against you, the game is rigged, there are no jobs, I'll just sit on my ass waiting until someone fixes all this terrible mess that is stacked against me. The problem with that is it just isn't true. My brothers and I, all four of us, came from having nothing and we are all successful and happy. So are millions of other people that got off their asses and worked, instead of sitting around crying about how unfair life is. Weird how so many people are so successful when the game is so rigged. And btw, of the 4 of us, only one has a degree.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

This thread has two kinds of people
1. Blame someone else
2. Do it yourself


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> This thread has two kinds of people
> 1. Blame someone else
> 2. Do it yourself


Exactly. If you dont like the company you work for, then start your own and be the company that everyone wants to work for. This is America for crying out loud. 

I have seen truly oppressed minorities become millionaires. I have seen silver spoon rich kids that had 3 million a year trust funds become drug addicts. It's not impossible but you have to want to first.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

To ALOT of people, 'work' is the worst 4 letter word.

We cannot get people who want to work, they just want a paycheck. We have them in ALL ages. Just "Gimme the money" people. "I'm entitled" people.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I just saw step mom pay $200 for four hours work. They brought their own weed eaters!?!? That's total man hours... $50 bucks an hour ain't bad.


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