# What is wrong with the economy?



## Trainwrek (Aug 23, 2014)

What do you believe is the deep underlying problem with our economy? Why can't we get it off the ground? Why are good paying jobs so scarce, and why are things getting more expensive while paychecks hardly ever change? Are there just too many people chasing limited supply of goods? Or mismanagement at the higher levels? 


What do you see as the root cause of it all and please feel free to expound on where you see this going in the next 10-20-40 years?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the economy has a leak 


and it used to be small enough that no one noticed 

then it got bigger and bigger and bigger 

and every day it gets bigger 

a few times we have plugged up that leak a bunch , it still leaks but not as much

then things get back to normal and the leak grown a little bit more and a little bit more

then the spring started to run slow and keeping up with the leak got harder 

the leak is entitlment and the spring is production , if you don't take seeds and grow them , mine minerals or oil from the earth and sell them or turn them into more valuable products to sell , the production spring dries up 

some where along the way our economy turned to banking , they saw lots of money they shuffled it around every conceivable way till they were counting debt as assets and everyone who counted it taking a cut. to keep costs down production was moved overseas , with each person that lost a job and took a lower paying job the spring slowed and at the same time often the leak quickened to fill the gap between what they person was making and are making now cuts were found and it slowed the leak a bit but eventually you run out of the places that just used to waste and waste used to be huge now even waste products are commodities , so the level of the tank dropped just a bit , and a bit more , till one day some one stepped back and said wow i remember when that tank was much more full 

if you had a tank and water flowed in you could see it flowing from a pipe in the spring and water flowed out every time you opened the tap for something , when would you notice the tank was empty 

our fiscal tank was empty a long time ago , and we opened the spigot of credit and then the tap flowed again , and we make payments to ease the credit burden then open the spigot and it appears the money flows again , but it isn't really money it's credit , and credit costs more but later , when do you think we will realized the credit tank ran dry, you guessed it when we open the spigot and the credit don't flow.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

The causes go back many decades, rooted in the populist bent toward socialism. Our economy is a direct result of the incremental shift from a Republic to a Democracy, where people find the can vote themselves a ticket in to the public wallet.

What's going to happen? If it follows historical patterns, first deflation - where people stop spending and prices drop. They stop spending because prices will be lower tomorrow. Then inflation/hyper inflation similar to the Wiemar Republic, where the wheel barrow is worth more than the money it can carry. End result? Chaos.

To wonder about 10 years, let alone 40, is wishful thinking IMHO. We've been close enough to the edge for the past 7 years any pebble coming dislodged will send us down.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Why is oil and agriculture in a boom, while the economy as a whole flounders? Because those activities actually create new wealth, while banking, providing services, selling crap made in China and other segments are just shuffling around the existing wealth. That's partly why our economy is anemic. Also we have gone overboard on environmental restrictions. We haven't built a new oil refinery since the 70s. The pipeline project is going nowhere. Also we are competing against the 2nd and 3rd world labor pool and their lax regulations on everything. And there is a lot of uncertainty, business hates uncertainty. We have Obamacare, no we are changing Obamacare, no we are just postponing parts of Obamacare. We are going to give amnesty for illegals, no we're not. We are cutting all govt spending 10% due to the sequester, no we're not. We are weaning the economy off of QE, no we're not. Take your pick, any issue, the future is not clear. The bigger the business, generally, the more long term their planning. How are they supposed to plan when all the puzzle pieces keep moving?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

The problem is, the poor got poorer, and the rich got greedier, and they've yet to understand that most the poor are their customers... When left with nothing, they can't buy much..


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Several things... high US debt..unfunded liabilities... too much liquidity in the banking system..almost impossible to pull out...add to that one of the highest Corp taxes..leading to the loss of jobs...


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

There is nothing wrong with the economy. It has failed, and rightfully so. When you take out more than you put in sooner or later things stop working. That is what has happened. 

Sortly thos who live large will need to work for it. Nothing else will work. Stay tuned. You will know a lot more very shortly.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Consumerism, cheap goods, overstepping govt, socialist programs.


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## han_solo (Aug 31, 2014)

I think one of the things that started the down spiral of jobs leaving etc was NAFTA. Maybe wrong but have wondered about it


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

When Clinton signed it, I said then that it was the beginning of the end of America's prosperity.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I agree about NAFTA. Why do you think our government pushed this on the American people?


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## TenBusyBees (Jun 15, 2011)

We consume, we don't produce.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Because Bill wanted to do something good for the Canadians since they hid him when he was drafted.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

A lot of things are wrong with the economy.

J.K. Rowling, famous Harry Potter author, fell off the Forbes list of billionaires awhile back. Part of the cause was England's ridiculously high tax rates, but despite the giant parasite of a state on her back, the other reason she fell off the list should astound you ... she fell off the list of billionaires because _she gave away too much money_.

Liberals, conservatives, economists, capitalists, employees ... everyone has the absolute wrong understanding of what money is. There's a fundamental broken view of money, wealth, and its uses that the world shares. It's a sickness ... a common derangement. It's very difficult to reorder your mind in this world of fictional dollars, but if you don't do it then you will continue to suffer. You will suffer fear, and you will suffer loss. You will feel the pain of every penny that you think should be in your pocket but isn't. They will be as unto lost children to you.

How can I explain this to you? How can I explain this to people who are still caught up in what they think they should have but don't?


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## Convoy (Dec 2, 2012)

I can't find a youtube video that explained it really well. The jist of it though was energy that the economies of the world run on. This includes not only oil and gas but the energy people put out creating then selling which when decreased increases prices. Makes alot of sense when considering what pulled the worlds economy out of the great depression was a huge increase in manufacturing of weapons for WW2. Economies are only truly sustainable when in sinc with the land - the reason even though only 1% of the people in the dark age economies were stable or else the population would never had increased factoring deaths in war, infancy deaths, disease etc that was fairly common back then.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

everything !!!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You're on the right track, Convoy.

In working with this Africa project, I've had to rethink some ideas. 

There's a particular village there that seems to be in extreme need. People literally starve to death there every day. In a country with boundless natural resources. Why do they starve?

They cannot farm because the government has confiscated all of the land and now sells it back to its citizens at very high prices. If you think this is just an Africa problem, it's exactly what happened in America after the Civil War.

So then I'm told (by old Americans who don't understand the issue and think of everything in terms of 1950's America) that "Africans should just pull themselves up by their boot straps. There's something they could do to earn money, if they really wanted to."

Let me tell you ... NOBODY will just lay down and starve if there's a means at all of earning money to buy food.

But imagine you're in a village where you have no money. Fine, you'll earn money by chopping firewood or washing goats or whatever for your neighbor. Only none of your neighbors have any money to pay you for that. They're all looking for a way to earn money too so that they don't starve either. 

There is no surplus energy there to be turned into wealth which would then be turned back into food. None. None at all. The nearest surplus is 4 hours away by car, probably 5 days away on foot. And there is no public transportation.

Over half of the world today exists on less than $3 per day. And they're no less willing to work hard than you are. And thanks to our educational system they're just as smart. Just as capable of pulling the levers that make widgets. Consider that the iPhone is assembled in factories by people who have never even seen the internet or made a cellphone call.

When you ask what's wrong with the economy, it's a hugely loaded question. It's like asking what's wrong with the cow in this picture.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

(GREENCOUNTYPETE- editing to make comply with rule about not posting full articles , I removed a bunch of the details , but it was hard to cut such good stuff all do yourselves a favor and follow the link) 

I rarely ever post whole articles, but in this case, author Jeff Thomas has done such an excellent job of answering the question of this thread, I will do so, with full credit to him, and the website it was originally posted upon ( http://www.internationalman.com/articles/how-empires-end )

* &#8220;Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.&#8221; *&#8211; Thomas Jefferson


Histories are generally written by academics. They, quite naturally, tend to focus on the main events: the wars and the struggles between leaders and their opponents (both external and internal). Whilst these are interesting stories to read, academics, by their very nature, often overlook the underlying causes for an empire&#8217;s decline.
Today, as in any era, most people are primarily interested in the &#8220;news&#8221;&#8212;the daily information regarding the world&#8217;s political leaders and their struggles with one another to obtain, retain, and expand their power. When the history is written about the era we are passing through, it will reflect, in large measure, a rehash of the news. As the media of the day tend to overlook the fact that present events are merely _symptoms_ of an overall decline, so historians tend to focus on major events, rather than the &#8220;slow operations&#8221; that have been the underlying causes.
* The Persian Empire*

When, as a boy, I was &#8220;educated&#8221; about the decline and fall of the Persian Empire, I learned of the final takeover by Alexander the Great but was never told that, in its decline, Persian taxes became heavier and more oppressive, leading to economic depression and revolts, which, in turn led to even heavier taxes and increased repression. Increasingly, kings hoarded gold and silver, keeping it out of circulation from the community. This hamstrung the market, as monetary circulation was insufficient to conduct business. By the time Alexander came along, Persia, weakened by warfare and internal economic strife, was a shell of an empire and was relatively easy to defeat.
* The Tang Dynasty*

Back then, I also learned that the Tang Dynasty ended as a result of the increased power amongst the eunuchs, battles with fanzhen separatists, and finally, peasants&#8217; revolts. 
* The Spanish Empire*

In 1556, Philip II of Spain inherited what was regarded as Europe&#8217;s most wealthy nation, with no apparent economic problems. Yet, by 1598, Spain was bankrupt. How was this possible?
* Present-Day Empires*

Again, the events above are not taught to schoolchildren as being of key importance in the decline of empires, even though they are remarkably consistent with the decline of other empires and what we are seeing today. The very same events occur, falling like dominoes, more or less in order, in any empire, in any age:


 The reach of government leaders habitually exceeds their grasp.
 

 Dramatic expansion (generally through warfare) is undertaken _without a clear plan as to how that expansion is to be financed._
 

 The population is overtaxed as the bills for expansion become due, _without consideration as to whether the population can afford increased taxation._
 

 Heavy taxation causes investment by the private sector to diminish, and the economy begins to decline.
 

 Costs of goods rise, without wages keeping pace.
 

 Tax revenue declines as the economy declines (_due to excessive taxation)_. Taxes are increased _again_, in order to top up government revenues.
 

 In spite of all the above, government leaders personally hoard as much as they can, further limiting the circulation of wealth in the business community.
 

 Governments issue bonds and otherwise borrow to continue expansion, _with no plan as to repayment._
 

 Dramatic authoritarian control is instituted to assure that the public continues to comply with demands, _even if_ those demands _cannot_ be met by the public.
 

 Economic and social collapse occurs, often marked by unrest and riots, the collapse of the economy, and the exit of those who are productive.
 

* In this final period, the empire turns on itself, treating its people as the enemy. *(bold added)
 The above review suggests that if our schoolbooks stressed the underlying _causes_ of empire collapse, rather than the names of famous generals and the dates of famous battles, we might be better educated and be less likely to repeat the same mistakes.
Unfortunately, this is unlikely. Chances are, future leaders will be just as uninterested in learning from history as past leaders. They will create empires, then destroy them.
Even the most informative histories of empire decline, such as _The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_, by Edward Gibbon, _will not be of interest_ to the leaders of empires. They _will_ believe that they are above history and that they, uniquely, _will_ succeed.
If there is any value in learning from the above, it is the understanding that leaders will not be dissuaded from their aspirations. They will continue to charge ahead, both literally and figuratively, regardless of objections and revolts from the citizenry.


Once an empire has reached stage eight above, it never reverses. It is a &#8220;dead empire walking&#8221; and only awaits the painful playing-out of the final three stages. At that point, it is foolhardy in the extreme to remain and &#8220;wait it out&#8221; in the hope that the decline will somehow reverse. At that point, the wiser choice might be to follow the cue of the Chinese, the Romans, and others, who instead chose to quietly exit for greener pastures elsewhere.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

I think the economy started dumping faster when we started printing "money" at will and each note had nothing backing it other then "our" pinky swear that it was valuable. So...that would have been the 1930's....when FDR started the BIG push to make us a socialist country, been in a death spiral ever since....


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## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

The GDP is dependent on 70%-ish on consumer spending. Wages have been flat or fallen in recent years (some say since the 70s, others say since the last Recession, which is still going on), while the Cost of Living has gone up steadily, more so when food and fuel is factored in. 

As others point out Globalization (NAFTA) has off shored a lot of jobs that used to be here in the states. Beware of the TPP!!

The hijinks of the banks and Wall St. makes them richer, and the rest of us poorer. 
The FED and their hijinks makes the banks and Wall St. richer and the rest of us poorer.
Thing is, since we have gone off the gold standard, money really has no worth other then belief. And the FED has been creating money at break neck speeds. 

I think due to all the aboves hijinks, the wheels are going to come off the cart and we are in for a hard crash. And I think soon (next few years).


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

I must admit I am really surprised how well the stock market has been doing. I have no idea what is going on.:hrm:


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Remember back in the late 80's and 90's when companies were spending millions on computerization? Well, in the early 2000's it finally paid off as millions of employees were no longer needed and laid off.

Couple that with robotics and other areas of automation, and you need fewer and fewer employees to produce the same amount of goods. Add to that the outsourcing of jobs overseas and moving manufacturing overseas and we are in a hole for which I see no bottom.

I see us turning into an economy of:


Government employees
Business Executives
White collar workers
Highly skilled technical workers
Highly skilled software workers
Entrepreneurs (Shrinking in # because of over-regulation and high startup costs)
Relatively low skilled service workers
As much as I hate to say it, for most people their best bet is a government job. I think the semi-skilled technical jobs which have been the mainstay of our economy are going to continue to decline.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

TnAndy said:


> I rarely ever post whole articles, but in this case, author Jeff Thomas has done such an excellent job of answering the question of this thread, I will do so, with full credit to him, and the website it was originally posted upon ( http://www.internationalman.com/articles/how-empires-end )
> 
> 
> Once an empire has reached stage eight above, it never reverses. It is a âdead empire walkingâ and only awaits the painful playing-out of the final three stages. At that point, it is foolhardy in the extreme to remain and âwait it outâ in the hope that the decline will somehow reverse. At that point, the wiser choice might be to follow the cue of the Chinese, the Romans, and others, who instead chose to quietly exit for greener pastures elsewhere.


I couldn't agree more! Thank you for posting this article. Problem though-

In the new 'global economy' and what with the petro dollar where exactly are "greener pastures" to be found? The moon maybe? (oh wait, that's right! We canned that program.)


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

Exploitation of fossil energy sources beginning maybe even two centuries ago with coal and steam power, then advancing to pre-peak abundance of oil as a cheap, energy-dense and easily transportable resource, allowed humanity to develop an intuitive but utterly doomed sense of possibility for, even rectitude of, even entitlement to, constant unlimited growth. Ability to synthesize nitrogen fertilizers plus fuel agricultural machinery, combined with medical and sanitation advances, have allowed human numbers to mushroom like so many yeast in a vat of grain and sugar water, or lemmings in tundra covered with edible forage. From the perspective of economists, bankers, politicians, with zero training in observations in the natural sciences, I suppose it seemed only sensible to quash the older banking model of having a known asset reserve combining gold & silver backing currency with solid functional capital entities like land, housing, and factory businesses justifying credit for loans from banks. That model wasn't optimistic and expansive enough to keep the wheels spinning for the obvious endless growth visible to our horizons and beyond! There's endless oil to support everything, so just print endless money and let our manifest destiny cover the world and on to the stars! Spend the money and the oil will come to fuel our can-do optimism and hopes. Breed that many more humans endlessly and a million flowers of new potentials and concepts and solutions to niggling problems will automatically follow! Tip a bottle of that fine craft beer, salute our financial genius... hm, what's this dead grak down at the bottom?... well no matter, no lessons to be learned from that, nor from those disgusting rodents being eaten en mass by arctic foxes and owls and thundering to their deaths over cliffs!

Our civilization is based on oil, as is the process of money printing, with no recognition of the reality of peak oil and the ultimate impossibility of gas fracking, nuke power, or anything else, to do better than postpone the inevitable for more than a few more years before our worldwide population reduces by quite a bit. All of the blaming of "socialism" or "bankers" or malevolent outsiders and illegal immigrants or conspiratorial illuminati or unenlightened materialists or Wal-Mart or any other limited targets simply amounts to getting lost in the fractal swirl of complex symptoms of the overall tragic problem.


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## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

DryHeat said:


> Exploitation of fossil energy sources beginning maybe even two centuries ago with coal and steam power, then advancing to pre-peak abundance of oil as a cheap, energy-dense and easily transportable resource, allowed humanity to develop an intuitive but utterly doomed sense of possibility for, even rectitude of, even entitlement to, constant unlimited growth. Ability to synthesize nitrogen fertilizers plus fuel agricultural machinery, combined with medical and sanitation advances, have allowed human numbers to mushroom like so many yeast in a vat of grain and sugar water, or lemmings in tundra covered with edible forage. From the perspective of economists, bankers, politicians, with zero training in observations in the natural sciences, I suppose it seemed only sensible to quash the older banking model of having a known asset reserve combining gold & silver backing currency with solid functional capital entities like land, housing, and factory businesses justifying credit for loans from banks. That model wasn't optimistic and expansive enough to keep the wheels spinning for the obvious endless growth visible to our horizons and beyond! There's endless oil to support everything, so just print endless money and let our manifest destiny cover the world and on to the stars! Spend the money and the oil will come to fuel our can-do optimism and hopes. Breed that many more humans endlessly and a million flowers of new potentials and concepts and solutions to niggling problems will automatically follow! Tip a bottle of that fine craft beer, salute our financial genius... hm, what's this dead grak down at the bottom?... well no matter, no lessons to be learned from that, nor from those disgusting rodents being eaten en mass by arctic foxes and owls and thundering to their deaths over cliffs!
> 
> Our civilization is based on oil, as is the process of money printing, with no recognition of the reality of peak oil and the ultimate impossibility of gas fracking, nuke power, or anything else, to do better than postpone the inevitable for more than a few more years before our worldwide population reduces by quite a bit. All of the blaming of "socialism" or "bankers" or malevolent outsiders and illegal immigrants or conspiratorial illuminati or unenlightened materialists or Wal-Mart or any other limited targets simply amounts to getting lost in the fractal swirl of complex symptoms of the overall tragic problem.


Did you see the article where the Saudis are investing $3bn in fracking? 
All the low hanging fruit is nearly gone.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Cheap energy is a good thing to make a healthy economy, so is growing up in a 2 parent home where you are taught to do things for yourself and not EXPECT the gov't to bail you small or big BUTT out. We have little of both these days. The gold standard was also a good thing.

Over-regulation politically enhanced....Obama wants to kill coal and Keystone, his wife only wants you to eat healthy after its gone from field to processor, inspector, packager, shipper....and paid for with welfare Why I cant sell milk and veg to my neighbor legally infuriates the heck out of me...its fresher and lower priced!

Unions....my husband finally got a job after 2 yrs unemployment with a union shop...and oh the whine butts....."I have seniority" even though they hold no licenses in said field...

I hate to complain but the well is dry.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

mpillow said:


> I hate to complain but the well is dry.




the chickens are coming to roost...the fat lady is about out of breath and the cows are standing in barn waiting on the milkmaid !!!!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Ohio dreamer said:


> I think the economy started dumping faster when we started printing "money" at will and each note had nothing backing it other then "our" pinky swear that it was valuable. So...that would have been the 1930's....when FDR started the BIG push to make us a socialist country, been in a death spiral ever since....


That was the start. Got a real push when Nixon closed the "gold window" in 1971, the US would no longer redeem foreign held paper dollars for gold (real money). The devaluation of the paper buck was really off to the races then. 

But if I could point to one chart that sums it up, it would the one attached. Both federal and private debt have been on a tear for the last few decades, and it simply can't continue. That is reflected in a stagnant economy.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

elkhound said:


> the chickens are coming to rooster...the fat lady is about of breath and the cows are standing in barn waiting on the milkmaid !!!!


Well, if you can actually find a cow, and a "maiden" to milk her...you ain't in my neck of the woods..............I don't think there are 10 milk cows left in this county! As to maidens....they went out when the "pill" came in!

We are near the end of our "bounty"...free to pick up bounty that is of our nation......just take timber...my fathers generation cut nearly all the old timber that was left..........4' longleaf pines take a few years

We've farmed our land to death........and the push to live at home and build soil went out in the 50's and 60's

Along with that went independence of a good many folks....give up the land for a paycheck....worked pretty good for a while...but the days of garraunteed retirement is gone..BYE...BYE.....

Farming's boom is over if beans stay below $10 and corn hits $3.....$3 corn at 200 bushels per acre will just pay the cost of planting and harvest in my neck of the woods....subsidies are nearly gone as of this year

It seems somebody has wanted folks that had land and other physical property to fall in number.....why......well a nation of independent..free agents....ain't as easy to control I imagine...

Wonder why you hear so much about reverse mortgages today......get the accumulated wealth out a private hands?

The last few days the talking Mouths have been waxing poetically about the best job growth since the 90's..........I don't no what part of America they are talking about.....but I can think of the 7 or 8 counties closest to home that undoubtably aren't included in that job growth....

In fact......if it keeps on the current track...I'm wondering when Shermans gonna come back with troops and torches


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

What exactly are your expectations for an economy?

That it should continue to grow by 25% every quarter? 

Let's look at a very specific economic item in a very specific scenario.

I have about 300 people on my Facebook page to whom I advertise knives to. There is only a very small trickle of non-FB sales that come in from other sources.

To date I have sold about 250 knives or so in the past couple of years. At this point, most everyone who wants one and can afford one has bought one. Unless I find a new market then that's pretty much it. Growth is going to taper off.

And now expand that out to the iPhone, the Ronco Salad Shooter, and all the other nitnoid consumer items that people buy. Pretty much everyone who wants one and can afford one HAS one.

So what's left for the corporations to do in order to maintain growth? They've got to either come out with new models that have enough features to make it worth buying, or they build in obsolescence so that in 2 years it breaks and you have to buy a new one. (Pretty much why most everything you buy now lasts 2 years before it has to be replaced.)

Unless they suddenly monetize the third-world, this really isn't a growth market anymore. You've got declining birth rates, so there aren't as many new people in the developed world to buy more crap. 

So before you can complain how the economy is under-performing, then we really should lay out some realistic expectations for what it would look like if it were "performing".


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

modern day retirement will be a couple acres,garden,flock of chickens and a milk goat and some form of a roof over ya head.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

elkhound said:


> modern day retirement will be a couple acres,garden,flock of chickens and a milk goat and some form of a roof over ya head.


I hope it's that good......I ain't a wanting to have to feed out possums fer Sunday dinner!


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## Trainwrek (Aug 23, 2014)

Some really excellent responses here. Thanks to TNAndy's very informative post I followed his link and found this site which has alot of great info on it. In particular this interview with two economists who are of the opinion that the US economy is about to crash. Very interesting and informative stuff;

http://www.internationalman.com/art...d-doug-casey-on-the-real-state-of-the-economy


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

elkhound said:


> modern day retirement will be a couple acres,garden,flock of chickens and a milk goat and some form of a roof over ya head.


The bad thing Elk is you dont own that 2 acres if you cant pay the tax man for it every year.......


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

TripleD said:


> The bad thing Elk is you dont own that 2 acres if you cant pay the tax man for it every year.......


Even worse ...

In my area, property taxes continue to fall and businesses have moved out. There's no oil money left and the local government isn't getting the tax revenue it wants from sales because of the economically depressed state of affairs.

So rather than cut back on services, what do they do? They raise property taxes.

So you're thinking, "Well, in my retirement years as the economy crashes I'll just live a simpler life."

Meanwhile, those fat cats down at city hall are voting themselves raises and coming up with even more projects for the county to do.

When I last spoke to the tax commissioner, I told him that he was a bandit who extorted money with the threat of violence. He grew indignant and said that he had never threatened anyone.

I asked him what happened if I don't pay my property taxes. He says they put a lien on my property and ultimately will confiscate it. And if I ignore their lien and paperwork shennanigans and continue to stay here, I asked? Then they send the sheriff out to tell me to move. And if I ignore the sheriff? Then he comes back with armed deputies and they try to move me. And if I violently resist the sheriff and his deputies? Then I either die right there from their guns, or it would continue to escalate until you have the United States Army right there in my driveway "restoring order" and killing the tax resistor.

So the extortion of property taxes are ultimately backed up by deadly force and soldiers in uniform. Just the same as it was in 1791 in the Whiskey Rebellion.

Despite whatever economic collapse comes, the government is going to want to be kept in the luxurious lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. If old money is worthless, then they'll take whatever new currency has come about. Oh, you don't have any of that? Too bad. Out you go. Oh, the new currency is worthless too? Well, they'll just take whatever livestock and tools you have laying around. Times are hard, you know, and they are willing to work out a payment plan. We're all in it together, yuk yuk, working for a better tomorrow.


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## Daydreamer7102 (Mar 23, 2012)

Greed.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

My property taxes have tripled in the last year...I am so mad! but there is nothing I can do about it, I have however refused to pay for the multitude of good for nothings that have sucked off of the system for years and then complain about it..(a person I know recently complained that her children benefits --7 of them--have dropped to $400.00 a month each and she didnt know what she was going to do--there is absolutely nothing wrong with her) She is a second generation do nothing but suck off the system. I have "disengaged" as much as possible from the system for a few years now that takes my money and gives it to the people who gladly do absolutely nothing and* live better than I do. * I am not talking about those that can't do much or children..I am talking about able bodied people that can do something, even if it is picking up trash in a park. And what ever happened to chain gangs with the prisons??? Why are they sitting around all day when our infrastructure is falling apart? More and more people in my area have the same feelings---what is wrong with the economy? This is one part of it.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

countrytime said:


> My property taxes have tripled in the last year...I am so mad! but there is nothing I can do about it, I have however refused to pay for the multitude of good for nothings that have sucked off of the system for years and then complain about it..(a person I know recently complained that her children benefits --7 of them--have dropped to $400.00 a month each and she didnt know what she was going to do--there is absolutely nothing wrong with her) She is a second generation do nothing but suck off the system. I have "disengaged" as much as possible from the system for a few years now that takes my money and gives it to the people who gladly do absolutely nothing and* live better than I do. *I am not talking about those that can't do much or children..I am talking about able bodied people that can do something, even if it is picking up trash in a park. And what ever happened to chain gangs with the prisons??? Why are they sitting around all day when our infrastructure is falling apart? More and more people in my area have the same feelings---what is wrong with the economy? This is one part of it.


 Once in awhile I get to feeling as you do...but then I think the money they get is a pittance compared to the "perks" given to TPTB. Private school tuition, major tax breaks, free parking, clothing and car allowances, etc. If we removed those welfare benefits, we would see a major change in the situation and thinking. Think about it, how many people on the dole does it take to equal the school tuition for just one child?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

TripleD said:


> The bad thing Elk is you dont own that 2 acres if you cant pay the tax man for it every year.......



thats why its so important to at least save and/or live under your means and get a place out of the way or less desirable....i.e. not a mansion on main street ....so you can keep a roof over ya head.for now its still far cheaper to pay tax than pay monthly rent to a landlord.if it gets to where i cant pay tax...i will sell out..if i can...climb on a horse and packstring and disapear.

for now i pay a tiny tax on my property...and yes ernie i know i am still being a slave...but it beats a fema cot for now...roflmao....i do have a bit of freedom to come and go as i please...under landowner rights i dont need big game tags to harvest my meat.can cut my forest and manipulate it as i see fit,garden and scratch the earth tending a garden and orchard and watch my chicken flock roam about dropping eggs out for my mostly free daily breakfast.

do any of you know about filing homestead papers to become exempt from taxes...each state is different...but i know a friend of mine told me years ago he had a lawyer file for him and he no longer paid taxes on his couple acres....i read about it too in countryside magazine once years ago....going on memory i think texas has this? ernie do you know anything about this?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

*Homestead exemption*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_exemption




The *homestead exemption* is a legal regime designed to protect the value of the homes of residents from property taxes, creditors, and circumstances arising from the death of the homeowner spouse. Laws are found in state statutes or constitutional provisions which exist in many states in the United States. The homestead exemption in certain southern states has its legal origins in colonial Spanish exemption laws. Exemption laws in other states were enacted in response to the effects of economic depressions in the 19th century.




Homestead exemption laws typically have four primary features:


They prevent the forced sale of a home to meet the demands of creditors (however, in most cases homestead exemptions do not apply to forced sales to satisfy mortgages, mechanics liens, or sales to pay property taxes);
They provide the surviving spouse with shelter;
They provide an exemption from property taxes which can be applied to a home.
Allows a tax-exempt homeowner to vote on property tax increases to homeowners over the threshold via bond or millage requests.
 For purposes of these statutes, a homestead is the one primary residence of a person, and no other exemption can be claimed on any other property anywhere, even outside the boundaries of the jurisdiction where the exemption is claimed.
In some states, homestead protection is automatic. In many states, however, homeowner will not receive the protections of the law until they file a claim for homestead exemption with the state. Furthermore, the protection can be lost if the homeowner abandons the protected property by taking up primary residence elsewhere.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

all any of us can do is best we can....after that.....who knows !!


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

In my county, if you are over 65 or disabled your property taxes are reduced a percentage.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

They have all sorts of exemptions and clauses and ways you can politely ask the government to get its boot off your neck and pass a little of the burden on to your neighbors. And if you're old enough, they figure they can't shear you anymore and they lessen your burden even further.

I went to a meeting awhile back where people were up in arms about their local property taxes going to pay for schools in another area that were collecting less revenue. Some sort of Robin Hood plan. The people were outraged about it.

I said, "So you don't think it's fair that you should have to pay educate other people's children?"

They all agreed that it was unfair.

So I asked, "Then why am I, a homeschooling parent whose children have never set foot in your schools, having to pay for them?"

Boy, that was one way to become REAL unpopular fast.

But being Ernie, I was unable to shut up about it. I said, "Also in my tax burden, I have to pay for all you crying nancies who are unable to protect yourselves from thieves and robbers. I carry a gun for my self-protection, and I guard my own property. Why do you think it's fair that I should support police and sheriffs to protect you and your property?"

Americans really don't like it when you point out that the entire system is predicated upon theft of labor to support other people.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

elkhound said:


> thats why its so important to at least save and/or live under your means and get a place out of the way or less desirable....i.e. not a mansion on main street ....so you can keep a roof over ya head.for now its still far cheaper to pay tax than pay monthly rent to a landlord.if it gets to where i cant pay tax...i will sell out..if i can...climb on a horse and packstring and disapear.
> 
> for now i pay a tiny tax on my property...and yes ernie i know i am still being a slave...but it beats a fema cot for now...roflmao....i do have a bit of freedom to come and go as i please...under landowner rights i dont need big game tags to harvest my meat.can cut my forest and manipulate it as i see fit,garden and scratch the earth tending a garden and orchard and watch my chicken flock roam about dropping eggs out for my mostly free daily breakfast.
> 
> do any of you know about filing homestead papers to become exempt from taxes...each state is different...but i know a friend of mine told me years ago he had a lawyer file for him and he no longer paid taxes on his couple acres....i read about it too in countryside magazine once years ago....going on memory i think texas has this? ernie do you know anything about this?


 Hey Elk I'm a landlord.....:grin:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

TripleD said:


> Hey Elk I'm a landlord.....:grin:




roflmao.....:nana:


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Trainwrek said:


> What do you believe is the deep underlying problem with our economy?


Government spending and general greed.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> Government spending and general greed.


 THIS !!!!! And you cant borrow your way out of debt.....


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

Massive runaway federal governmental expansion without connectivity or accountability to domestic production= Liberals.


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## bouvi (Jun 1, 2013)

Greed


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> Government spending and general greed.





TripleD said:


> THIS !!!!! And you cant borrow your way out of debt.....





hawgsquatch said:


> Massive runaway federal governmental expansion without connectivity or accountability to domestic production= Liberals.




plus you have to pay for what you already borrowed in past....we need to cut programs and pay down debt even if it means suffering more...so be it...we as individuals suffer in our daily lives they can too by cutting spending.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

Teddy Roosevelt and the Square Deal (set the stage for the New Deal)
FDR and the New Deal
LBJ and the Great Society
Bill Clinton and the Community Reinvestment Act
Bill Clinton refusing to increase the number of refineries resulting in higher gas prices down the road. He said it would take 10 years to see results. Well.......
Bill Clinton and NAFTA
Poorly managed wars in the ME due to following political correct ideology and strategy (ok, MHO)
Obama and the ACA

And wait until Hillary puts her plans in effect. Turning the ACA into single payer and universal preschool for starters.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

The problem with the economy is that since the 1970s some employees took steps to retire early while other employees spent it as fast as they earned it and often more, many employees got lazy and coveted what those who set their goal of early retirement and forced producing corporations to seek other outlets to meet production.

Stack on top of this the fact that many corporate options reduced taxable revenue and government turned to smaller cap businesses for tax revenue and the former lazy employees and their offspring lost touch with work place reality and became more work force liability instead of asset.

Layer in the few corrupt managers and the former lower production cost markets demanding higher wage and the government not offering domestic production firms tax incentive to remain domestic, instantaneous computer stock trading with no real market close and you have the storm we now see as the current economy.

Production my employer had to move overseas in the 1990s due to domestic labor costs when the company stock was worth $75 +- $6 to 12 a share ,found its way back domestic around 2006 but due to computer trading market stagnation even though the current U.S. employees are willing to work for $12 hr as opposed to the oversea employees now wanting $9 hr up from the $3 hr in the 1990s plus shipping , the stock of the current company stock value seldom gets above $11 a share or below $10 a share.

If the markets would limit computer trading in favor of the horse race floor bidding before the closing bell of the 1990s and earlier to restore the gamble factor to stock trading much as it limited margin trading after the big crash, it would be a good start.

Follow that with corporate tax incentives for domestic production of all corporate caps and realistic training of students once again and our economy may improve.

In the past most retired to a reasonable lifestyle within a year or so of paying off the mortgage after a career of long hours and basic expenditures. Now folks want more, more, more and less, less,less work to achieve it but the economic structure cannot support that dream.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

yall wait till baby boomers really start getting social security and then start cashing in all those bonds and selling stocks they been buying since 1970's...theres going to be a sucking sound on wallstreet like never has been heard....and if vast majority are selling there just might not be buyers.

theres been alot of big promises and we are already seeing delivery failures of them all over..private and state and federal govt.

theres alot of crying ahead i am afraid for many.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

That's what Quantitative Easing is for. Give Wall Street a cash infusion to match what's bleeding out the other side.

I don't know how long they can keep that ball in the air, but I also don't know that Wall Street has a significant impact on many people's lives. Maybe it does. It hasn't had an impact on mine for quite some time.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> That's what Quantitative Easing is for. Give Wall Street a cash infusion to match what's bleeding out the other side.
> 
> I don't know how long they can keep that ball in the air, but I also don't know that Wall Street has a significant impact on many people's lives. Maybe it does. It hasn't had an impact on mine for quite some time.



think of all the 401k's and other investments in peoples retirment portfolios......then think of all of them selling at retirement....there might be a flood of stocks/bonds etc and no buyers.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Try to live...........that's all any of us can do......that's all Adam n Eve could do and every generation of mankind since then.
Do what you can...save what you can...live best as you can...sensibly...and don't hold any property to dear....we all are going to leave it sometime......that said there ain't nothing wrong with being saving, thrifty, and making 99 cent stretch into a dollar!
There are a few truths:
The economy is not good all over the USA. It's reached a point where there are more communities sliding away than prospering.

The basic building block of our nation is the family...just as the cell is the basic building block of our body...When a persons cells go crazy they are in danger of death...Well, the American family has been on decline for many a decade

If the family can't make it economically....the nation won't ....for as goes the family so goes America.

Remember, families make up communties...which make up townships..on to parishes and counties..they make up states, and they make up our nation.....ever saw a building stand with the bricks and blocks pulled out and just the mortar holding up the roof..

Private individual wealth made our nation strong....private wealth paid for war bonds....private wealth started schools, hospitals, charities ect....now the private individual of moderate to...well, I'm not talking the jet set...but the solid citizen sort....they are being bled out and if it keeps up in a decade or 2 the only folks that will not be living in poverty will work for the government or be uber wealthy...

Heres hope though...man was thrown outa Eden....nations rose and fell as the ages passed like the tide...Jerusalem fell, Babylon, Ur, Phonecia, Minoa, Persia, Alexanders' Greece, Rome.....Remember the wealth of Spain...and the great British Empire....they all bloomed and wilted...Do we really think America won't.....looks like her petals are fading now...

Funny thing about all those past great world powers.....I don't really no of one that was totally wiped off the face of the earth....Do you?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

elkhound said:


> think of all the 401k's and other investments in peoples retirment portfolios......then think of all of them selling at retirement....there might be a flood of stocks/bonds etc and no buyers.


Who out there has a 401k that has actually made money?


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Ernie said:


> Who out there has a 401k that has actually made money?


Me!:clap:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

terri9630 said:


> Me!:clap:


Try and pull it out. 

I thought mine had made money too, but the money I thought I'd made didn't cover the government's taxes on it.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> Once in awhile I get to feeling as you do...but then I think the money they get is a pittance compared to the "perks" given to TPTB. Private school tuition, major tax breaks, free parking, clothing and car allowances, etc. If we removed those welfare benefits, we would see a major change in the situation and thinking. Think about it, how many people on the dole does it take to equal the school tuition for just one child?


I completely agree with you..I'm fed up with TPTB also. Why do we need all of these projects going on when there are more important things to worry about? 
It is a combination of many, many things. I guess what I am saying is that people are getting fed up with their tax dollars going to pay for ridiculous projects (at this time), and their taxes being raised to pay for others who can do for themselves but know how to work the system for generations. I have absolutely no problem helping others--it's the generational poverty that bothers me. Regarding this fact, I understand that it is a cycle that is hard to break free from...herein lies the frustration...we need to figure this out, yet there is no easy answer--there are no jobs for these people. 
Raising my taxes to pay for the perks of others is the main reason I'm disgusted.... govt spending --especially like Ernie says if I lose my property for not paying these taxes.


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## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

Ernie said:


> Who out there has a 401k that has actually made money?


I did.
But I knew how to read the markets.
But after the TARPA thing, I knew the markets had shifted and it would never be the same again.
So I cashed in. Even after taxes I made out well. I didnt do anything dumb with the money but got free and clear of all debt, kept the rest in savings . . . until low/no interests made it cost prohibitive keeping money in a bank. 
Put it in real, hard assets.


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## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

elkhound said:


> yall wait till baby boomers really start getting social security and then start cashing in all those bonds and selling stocks they been buying since 1970's...theres going to be a sucking sound on wallstreet like never has been heard....and if vast majority are selling there just might not be buyers.
> 
> theres been alot of big promises and we are already seeing delivery failures of them all over..private and state and federal govt.
> 
> theres alot of crying ahead i am afraid for many.


Last I head SS was supposed to be bankrupt by 2018 . . . has that changed?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Who out there has a 401k that has actually made money?


Mines doing quite well.


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## Super55 (Apr 9, 2014)

Where to start with whats wrong the economy. There are so many factors causing this mess we are in even professors with Phd's in economics can't agree.

1. The national debt- Everytime we add another trillion to the national debt the purchasing power of our dollars goes down a notch. In '08 was gas was at 4 dollars a gallon the price of a barrel of oil was about 160. Today, 4 dollar gas occurs all the time yet the barrel price is around 120. In the 90's. Clinton opened up the strategic reserve to try and keep gas under 2.50 a gallon. The inflation that has occurred due to our debt is killing the purchasing power for people. The government only rates inflation on durable goods not on things such as food, fuel, electricity, and insurance rates so when they quote inflation is not occurring they are only referring to things such as washing machines, cars, etc. 

2. Wall street- This one is probably the biggest cause of the decline of the middle class. Everybody is involved in wall street these days if you have a 401K or some other type of investment fund that makes it growth off of Wall Street. The more profit a company can show the more it shares will be worth. Stocks are traded so rapidly now that most people are trying to get them when they are low and selling them high without long term investment in a company. Show a bad quarter and everybody is jumping ship. 

3. Our government policies and regulations don't really stimulate growth. Look at all the big projects that get bogged down in politics. Keystone XL pipeline is perfect example. This thing you would think is a no brainer. It has come to the point where China said they would build a pipeline to the western coast for Canada if it doesn't go through. I foresee that what will eventually happen. Locally in my neck of the woods, An energy company wanted to put up windmills in the number of the hundreds. People all over fought against it saying it would destroy the intrinsic beauty of the area. Farmers were going to get a handsome yearly lease payment for having the windmill on there land but eventually the company decided on an alternate location. 

4. We like cheap products and our trade agreements allow it. All of us love a bargain. Simply put overseas companies can produce it cheaper. Lax import tariffs allow all these products to come in cheaply. We have the largest consumer economy and everybody wants a slice of what we buy but all that does is create vast competition with domestic jobs. Don't get me wrong competition is good when it creates a better product but when you have a company that pays a worker a few dollars a day there's no way a US company even paying minimum wage could compete.

I predict that we will eventually have an economic collapse that will make 2008 or in 1929 look like a walk in the park. Prior to WWII Germany was in hyperinflation from the war retributions of WWI. Inflation was so rampant people were getting paid twice a day because everything was going up in price so fast and the money was worthless. It will be interesting if it ever comes to the point where someone says US pay up and we say we can't and there a major sell off. The only reason China buys our debt is because they are in bed with us and know if our economy collapses so does theirs. Most of our debt is owed to ourselves so eventually a generation that has paid in its entire life to SSN, Medicare, etc. won't receive one benefit because we'll be broke. In all honesty I'm 37 and I'm not banking on either will be around by the time I reach retirement age. Call me a pessimist but the writing is all over the wall.

Nobody in Washington wants to make the inevitable tough decisions because they are all worried about re-election. I guess if your going to drive off a cliff you might as well make the ride as enjoyable as possible until you get there.

Isn't economics fun


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

elkhound said:


> yall wait till baby boomers really start getting social security and then start cashing in all those bonds and selling stocks they been buying since 1970's...theres going to be a sucking sound on wallstreet like never has been heard....and if vast majority are selling there just might not be buyers.
> 
> theres been alot of big promises and we are already seeing delivery failures of them all over..private and state and federal govt.
> 
> theres alot of crying ahead i am afraid for many.



Well its government QE thats pumping up the market now, so why wouldn't they just pump it up with more printed up money then?

I think what is wrong with the economy, fundamentally, is that we no longer have a real economy. At least not in the way we've known it at any other time in history. If you think of an economy as individuals ( not corporations, conglomerates, or governments ) voluntarily trading for goods and services, with prices being determined by organic supply and demand forces, then that is gone. The last traces of it died in '08, but it was already dead a long time before that.

What we are experiencing now is a centrally planned, corporo- government controlled experiment. The experiment ( whether intentional or not ) will be whether tptb can create and maintain the illusion of an economy. 

If we look at the statistics, just 15 years ago 20% of Americans were self employed, today that number stands at 6%. 50% of employed Americans work for the government. Think about that, its pretty staggering, *50% of employed Americans work for the government!* Think about what would happen if the government could no longer employ that many people, the remainder of the economy would crumble. So, in effect, even the private enterprise that is left is completely dependent on the government ( and that makes no mention of the TRILLIONS in bailouts and "loans" the government gave out to keep "private enterprise" alive .) What that means is that there is no economy left, the government IS the economy.

The economy failed completely ( for many reasons ) and the government picked it up and is creating the artificial likeness of an economy because the real one is dead. How are the 50% of Americans working for the government being paid? With dollars that are borrowed and printed. 

Manufacturing is at an all time low. We aren't producing squat. So here we have this government that makes up jobs that don't produce anything, and pays the people in borrowed and printed up paper. All of this is backed up by the force of our military, which is why we are always fighting multiple wars at any given time now. We are trying to force the world to accept the dollar as the world reserve currency in all of their transactions because without it the whole facade crumbles.



It will be interesting to see if the government can continue to force the rest of the world to accept pieces of paper for their real goods.

This is a far cry from producing real products to fill real demands, and competing honestly for business on the world stage. This is make-believe. We make believe that we have a real economy and the rest of the world makes believe that our pieces of paper have value. 50% of the people make believe that they are going to work and being productive and we all continue to live the fairy tale.



PS The good news is that as long as human beings are alive an economy can regrow and replace the old, dead one. But it can't regrow so long as the government and TPTB maintain the artificial one. So on the one hand it may seem like the government saved us alot of pain, but in doing so it is preventing the real economy from recovering.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

What is wrong with the economy? Too much gov't. 

People create wealth, either individually or joined together in a corporation. Wealth is what funds the creation of more jobs, new drugs, your free time drinking Mint Juleps, a dinner and movie with that someone special, and the charity we give to those less fortunate than us. When I say wealth, I'm not talking about mansions and yachts necessarily, just the funds each person has in excess of his basic needs (however he determines needs) for shelter, food, clothing, etc.

If you don't think wealth is critical, take a look at many third world countries where families live in conditions far worse than most of us would house our livestock. 

The gov't destroys wealth when taxes suck money out of the economy and get spent on wasteful projects and debt financed by other countries. 

Yes, the gov't can help in the creation of wealth when it builds roads and ports that spur individuals to invest, create jobs, and build wealth. The gov't can also help build wealth by creating a stable social environment where private property, individual rights, and freedoms are respected. 

But when the gov't takes wealth from a maker and gives it to a taker, or tries to prop up failing businesses, or spends it on the military in excess of what is needed to defend our interests, it destroys wealth. When the gov't over-regulates to the point that wealth creation is slowed or stopped, it destroys wealth. When the gov't spends money on bureaucrats who sit around and do not create wealth, it destroys wealth. 

Less wealth means less for everyone. Less gets invested in buildings, homes, new companies and jobs, products that make our lives better, and yes, even stupid things like pet rocks. Less wealth means that Widgets, Inc sells fewer framastats and lays off workers, so the restaurant next door serves fewer lunches and lays off a waiter, so the waiter doesn't spend money on a haircut, so the barber can't pay his mortgage, so the bank looses money and can't lend it to Widgets, Inc to expand their newest product line. 

We need less gov't.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Real wages have fallen over the years. People, and govts, have made up with it by taking on more debt. That has a limit, and we're reached it.











This illustrates it in terms of silver versus paper money, but you could use thousands of real things versus paper money and get the same results. We are simply making a lot less in terms of what it will buy.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The homestead exemptions were the privilege offered to give the illusion of right when the attorneys of the mid-1800s first began to steer land and home buyers away from the Land Patent, instead offering only a deed, which is indicative of title, but NOT complete title in law.
Hence the limitation to one parcel enjoying protection, rather than all of the land(s) which an individual could claim by right.
There is much case law which makes clear the difference between the power of the Patent, and the subordination thereto of a deed....even specifying that a sheriff's deed cannot be enforced against an authentic Patent, nor against a Patent Holder.



elkhound said:


> *Homestead exemption*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

This is the best post I have come across in regard to the true state of the "economy".......especially that thousand words representation at the bottom.



Ernie said:


> You're on the right track, Convoy.
> 
> In working with this Africa project, I've had to rethink some ideas.
> 
> ...


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

I absolutely agree Ernie and FR--we are seeing this more and more in our area---VERY FEW HAVE CASH to buy--there is trading going on...everyone is taxed to death, on food assistance, so they can't buy privately as only the bigger groceries accept the EBT cards, they make enough money to barely pay the bills, even if they live simply, or they are completely at the mercy of the govt on every assistance group...
This kind of economy cannot continue forever--the ones barely paying the bills now, keep getting poorer and poorer in terms of extra cash on hand. The poor are having a hard time with food, rent, and real goods. Those on SS are suffering.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

countrytime said:


> I absolutely agree Ernie and FR--we are seeing this more and more in our area---VERY FEW HAVE CASH to buy--there is trading going on...everyone is taxed to death, on food assistance, so they can't buy privately as only the bigger groceries accept the EBT cards, they make enough money to barely pay the bills, even if they live simply, or they are completely at the mercy of the govt on every assistance group...
> This kind of economy cannot continue forever--the ones barely paying the bills now, keep getting poorer and poorer in terms of extra cash on hand. The poor are having a hard time with food, rent, and real goods. Those on SS are suffering.


Around here, those on SS with paid-for properties are the ones doing pretty good. They always have money to pay you to mow their lawn, or to buy firewood, or to dig a ditch ... but you'll have to wait for the 15th when their check comes in. 

I asked the property tax man why I have to pay in FRN's which I don't have. I told them I could run a road grader, a bulldozer, or backhoe for the county for a week or so in return for my property tax bill. Or if he'd rather, I could pick up trash along some county road since that's one of the things they're using my money for.

No dice. They want cash. They don't even take credit card.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

I absolutely agree Ernie and FR--we are seeing this more and more in our area---VERY FEW HAVE CASH to buy--there is trading going on...everyone is taxed to death, on food assistance, so they can't buy privately as only the bigger groceries accept the EBT cards, they make enough money to barely pay the bills, even if they live simply, or they are completely at the mercy of the govt on every assistance group...
This kind of economy cannot continue forever--the ones barely paying the bills now, keep getting poorer and poorer in terms of extra cash on hand. The poor are having a hard time with food, rent, and real goods. Those on SS are suffering. 

That ain't what the News says anymore:nono:

Course.....I don't think alot of us exactly believe or trust the news anymore!

Folks used to have to stretch 99 cents to a dollar......now they are starting at 49 cents stretching as far as they can.....


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Ernie said:


> Around here, those on SS with paid-for properties are the ones doing pretty good. They always have money to pay you to mow their lawn, or to buy firewood, or to dig a ditch ... but you'll have to wait for the 15th when their check comes in.
> 
> I asked the property tax man why I have to pay in FRN's which I don't have. I told them I could run a road grader, a bulldozer, or backhoe for the county for a week or so in return for my property tax bill. Or if he'd rather, I could pick up trash along some county road since that's one of the things they're using my money for.
> 
> No dice. They want cash. They don't even take credit card.


That's 'cause they love to sell those properties that can't pay at the tax sale in my neck of the woods so their buddies can buy property cheap and make money...the same ones over and over.....
My moms on SS--her place is paid for but her tax bill every month equals $300.00 a month---
they just sent me a notice that my property values increased $4,000--so I bet my bill goes up AGAIN.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Mine went up about $5 this year. They blame "fiscal shortfalls" and "falling property values".

My property taxes cost me about $4 a day to live. That's my daily contribution to the government.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Ernie said:


> You're on the right track, Convoy.
> 
> In working with this Africa project, I've had to rethink some ideas.
> 
> ...


Which would explain why the black market is exploding around the world right now. Human trafficking, drugs, etc...... whatever it takes to survive.


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## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

Then there is this: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/09/15/stem-graduates-cant-find-jobs

How many years have we seen Bill Gates go before Congress begging for more H1B visas to bring in more of the talent Microsoft needs to be competitive? 
It appears it is no longer just ol Billy boy.


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## Groene Pionier (Apr 23, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> Government spending and general greed.


ok.. a bit old perhaps, but still good! And you can sing out loud
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHIDE8CY1dU[/ame]


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