# Importance of smaller livestock in troubling times



## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

I Just believe, that with an upcoming economic collapse, it is vitally important to have livestock of some form around the house...That being said, the health and well being of such is important...Suggestions on Wormers, wound care and feeding should be the discussion.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

Diatomaceous Earth is a very effective wormer. Easy to store and cheap. Be sure to get food grade.

Also think in terms of growing your own animal feed.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Rabbits are basically parasite free, they're quiet, easy to hide, eat what I can cut in the pasture (if I couldn't get their pellets) and multiply fast.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Common Tator said:


> *Diatomaceous Earth is a very effective wormer.* Easy to store and cheap. Be sure to get food grade.
> 
> Also think in terms of growing your own animal feed.


 
It's powdered *ROCK*
It's* never been proven* to have *any* real effect on INTERNAL parasites

Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract



> *Egg counts for CTRL and DE groups decreased* in March and *none of the groups differed* (P > 0Â·05) significantly for the remainder of the study. Coccidia levels decreased over time similarly for all groups.
> 
> *Offering 20 g DE* per kg food intake for 46 days to beef steers on a high cereal -based diet *had* *no effect* (P > 0Â·05) on body weight, average daily gain, dry-matter intake, food conversion or days on food *compared with the untreated control steers.*


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

Goats are great for meat and milk. Thrive on what most would croke eating. Re produce fast but not as fast a rabbit. Can be theathered to eat brush lawn hearty.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

Garlic cayenne pepper and aloe are wonderful for parasite and immune building. My friend is an organic dairy farmer. She is a wealth of information.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Older folks used to give mules gourd seed for worms. Imagine my suprise when a little girl told me they fed their goats gourd seed for worms. I give the dogs sulfur for worms, cat get a piece of lye soap the size of a pea,and hogs have been wormed with lye soaked in their feed for decades.


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## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

I've been reading about keeping quail in the city. They take up the same space as rabbits, reproduce fast, are table weight at 6 weeks and starr laying eggs 1 a day at 6 weeks also. They are quite and require little care.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's powdered *ROCK*
> It's* never been proven* to have *any* real effect on INTERNAL parasites
> 
> Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract


So diatomaceous earth is powdered rock, not diatom fossils?

I keep reading that DE is dangerous to bugs with exoskeletons. Your link is the first that I have seen that says otherwise.

DE is described here. Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) - Bulk Herb Store


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

wes917 said:


> I've been reading about keeping quail in the city. They take up the same space as rabbits, reproduce fast, are table weight at 6 weeks and starr laying eggs 1 a day at 6 weeks also. They are quite and require little care.


Now for SHTF scenario any small animal that feeds you is a plus. For those interested in having them set up now, I can offer some hands on experience with quail.

We have raised "Japanese" quail and they are not that quiet. The hens make a happy fuss over every egg like chickens do and the roosters do crow. A funny crow, but if you have a bunch of them it can get noisy outside. 

I would think about how close you are to neighbors. 

Now the plus side is they are sooooooo delicious. The eggs are a bear to work with because they are very hard to peel hard boiled, but they sure are wonderful in salads! They do make wonderful pickled eggs.

So easy to slaughter, I used a good strong pair of shears, off with the head, cut up the back and use a spoon to scrape out the innards.

They are VERY flighty. Scared of their own shadows. Any tiny opening and they're gone. Breeding them naturally in captivity is so challenging, few have been successful. You would need to incubate the eggs, which we did with great success.

Feed is costly as you must feed them gamebird feed. Chicken feed (according the experts) won't work, and g'bird feed is expensive. 

Hardest part? Slaughtering day is tough. They are very very cute. Not anything like a big 'ol meat chicken. Best try to not look at their eyes when the deed needs done.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> So diatomaceous earth is powdered rock, not diatom *fossils*?
> 
> I keep reading that DE is dangerous to bugs with *exoskeletons*. Your link is the first that I have seen that says otherwise.
> 
> DE is* described here*. Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) - Bulk Herb Store


"Fossil" MEANS all organic material has been REPLACED by *rock:*

Diatomaceous earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*



Diatomaceous earth (







/&#716;da&#618;.&#601;t&#601;&#716;me&#618;&#643;&#601;s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key&#712;&#604;r&#952;/) also known as D.E., diatomite, or kieselgur/kieselguhr, is a naturally occurring, soft, siliceous sedimentary rock that is easily crumbled into a fine white to off-white powder

Click to expand...

* 
Internal parasites *don't HAVE* "exoskeletons"

Your source is trying to *SELL* you some DE
They will claim anything to get you to BUY it

Controlling Goat Parasites




> In the case of diatomaceous earth there have been several studies done by parasitologists in different parts of the country that have found *no beneficial effect to feeding it or offering it as mineral*


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Thats why we have Nigierian Dwarf Dairy Goats. Their small sizes means you can house/feed 2 in the place of one larger goat, plus they are easy to handle and transport since they will fit in a large or XL dog crate. They avg 2-3 kids per pregnancy and quads are not unusual. Since they cycle year round it isn't hard to stagger breedings so you always have at least one doe in milk. Milk production in my herd averages a 1/2 gallon a day when first fresh and the butter fat content averages 7%. I keep at least 3 bucks on hand all the time so if the SHTF I have some genetic diversity. 

Good genetics and a careful breeding program means I NEVER feed grain to my goats. The only feed they need other than their pasture is the alfalfa pellets. I am working towards having those calcium and protein needs handled in pasture, so no off farm input is needed. I do grow sunflower seeds and pumpkins for them and they get trimmings and such. I'd love to have a wood lot to turn them out into occasionally but no such luck. I need to finish fencing the garden area so I can turn them out there to do the off season clean up for me.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

We touched on the DE controversy in a recent thread about DE. Although people are polarized on both sides of the issue, I can only relate my specific experience. I have used DE with good success in dealing with feline and canine tapeworm problems (measured by the absence of visible worms in the anal area of the animals and a return to robust good health) and have used DE in combination with herbal wormer (and a combination of other favorable factors) to keep my sheep flock relatively parasite free. I have also used it successfully for repelling soft bodied slugs and insects with exoskeletons from around my home and woodpile.

I am not trying to sell anyone anything. I don't sell DE. I get nothing out of others using or not using it. I am merely sharing anecdotal evidence I experienced personally with the intention of offering others the idea of other options than chemical wormers. Each person's experience will vary, I'm sure. However I also know that in my area, most sheep farmers have had to seek desperate measures to control parasites in their flocks because the parasites have become very resistant to chemical wormers. DE may not work for some people, but it has become increasingly obvious that the chemicals are losing effectiveness also.

Although it is important to do your homework and review what is known and proven by peer reviewed research, I believe it is also important to realize that our ancestors kept their animals alive somehow before chemical wormers were ever introduced. Due to the fact that most of these "folk remedies" are easy to obtain and hard to patent, research is rarely performed to test their effectiveness because there is no profit in that research and no one is interested in funding research that doesn't generate a profit for their corporation.

One good (but not perfect) resource I have found for nonchemical medications for livestock is The Complete Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable, by Juliette De Bairacli Levy


Here is the link for the DE thread


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

Wags, I am interested in learning more about your goats. Do you have a thread in the goat forum regarding them? I am curious about what all you do with their milk. I don't know that much about butter and cheese making, although I have an interest there. Is 7% enough fat for making butter? Also, I have heard that you have to keep the bucks away from the nannies to prevent the milk from being tainted. Do you do that?

I know that one day I will want a milk producing animal - either goat or bovine. I want to make home made butters and cheeses. 

Thank for your information

Belle


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

If society ends and the road warriors have taken over, once you have used up your stored antibiotics and wormers, you will just have to make do the best you can.

Willow bark acts like a mild aspirin. You can get some herbal books and grow some herbs that might be useful, or at least slightly useful. Better than nothing.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I believe it is also important to realize that our ancestors *kept their animals alive* somehow before chemical wormers were ever introduced.


They just had higher losses

DE is powdered rock, and nothing more.


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## wvdexters (Apr 30, 2012)

The "old folks" around here feed the rotten tomatoes to their chickens. They say toms will deworm and are good nutrition.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I raise quail in my city backyard. The roosters don't seem to bother any of my neighbors. In fact, I don't think that they know what they are hearing. As a matter of fact, I have had as many as 13 chicken hens on my property and the neighbors didn't know. Their sounds blended in with those made by the crows and seagulls. You don't have to keep a lot of males quail around. Most people that I know tend to eat the extra males and keep the number of hens around that they want.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Here is my issues with the anecdotal evidence seen above. Do fecals before AND after giving the DE. SHOW me that it truly works. First DE doesn't work when wet and the inside of an animal is wet. Second it only works on parasites with an exoskeleton and internal parasites do NOT have exoskeletons. Third researchers have shown multiple times that it makes zero difference in the parasite load. Fourth you MUST do fecals regularly to see if it works and no one is doing that. They just guess that it works. 

Also you can't tell by the back end of a dog whether or not it is taking care of the tape worms. You only rarely see the tape worm segments anyways so not seeing them doesn't mean bunk. You have to do fecals to see if the dog still has them. 

Please use your heads. I use DE around my garden for bugs but not for my animals until it can be proven it works.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Wags said:


> Thats why we have Nigierian Dwarf Dairy Goats. Their small sizes means you can house/feed 2 in the place of one larger goat, plus they are easy to handle and transport since they will fit in a large or XL dog crate. They avg 2-3 kids per pregnancy and quads are not unusual. Since they cycle year round it isn't hard to stagger breedings so you always have at least one doe in milk. Milk production in my herd averages a 1/2 gallon a day when first fresh and the butter fat content averages 7%. I keep at least 3 bucks on hand all the time so if the SHTF I have some genetic diversity.
> 
> Good genetics and a careful breeding program means I NEVER feed grain to my goats. The only feed they need other than their pasture is the alfalfa pellets. I am working towards having those calcium and protein needs handled in pasture, so no off farm input is needed. I do grow sunflower seeds and pumpkins for them and they get trimmings and such. I'd love to have a wood lot to turn them out into occasionally but no such luck. I need to finish fencing the garden area so I can turn them out there to do the off season clean up for me.



I've been looking for some Nigerian dwarfs for a good 6 months now. I really don't want large goats. Don't want a freezer dedicated to milk... I'd rather have a couple of small goats I can stagger breedings/milking.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

KrisD said:


> Here is my issues with the anecdotal evidence seen above. Do fecals before AND after giving the DE. SHOW me that it truly works. First DE doesn't work when wet and the inside of an animal is wet. Second it only works on parasites with an exoskeleton and internal parasites do NOT have exoskeletons. Third researchers have shown multiple times that it makes zero difference in the parasite load. Fourth you MUST do fecals regularly to see if it works and no one is doing that. They just guess that it works.
> 
> Also you can't tell by the back end of a dog whether or not it is taking care of the tape worms. You only rarely see the tape worm segments anyways so not seeing them doesn't mean bunk. You have to do fecals to see if the dog still has them.
> 
> Please use your heads. I use DE around my garden for bugs but not for my animals until it can be proven it works.


I don't actually feel obligated to prove to you or Barefoot Farm or anyone else that DE works or doesn't. Use it or don't. No skin off my nose either way.

I used to work as a biologist and have spent many years in animal husbandry. I have worked in veterinarian's offices in the past. I think I am capable of determining whether or not my animals are suffering from a worm infestation, in most cases without doing a preliminary fecal float. I participated in a number of those peer reviewed papers and I know their strengths and weaknesses.

I shared my personal experience to let others know that there are ways to go other than chemical. It is certainly up to them to make their own decisions.

What I do know is that I was able to keep my flock alive while a local vet pumped his full of chemicals (primarily ivermectin but also some of the new copper stuff) and every single one of them died. I don't need some journal to give me a control group, baselines, raw data, statistical interpretation, etc. I see live sheep here and dead sheep there. That's enough for me. But you all feel free to do whatever you like.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Common Tator said:


> So diatomaceous earth is powdered rock, not diatom fossils?


I was under the impression it was the fossils too. It is from a crustacean of some type, isn't it?


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> Wags, I am interested in learning more about your goats. Do you have a thread in the goat forum regarding them? I am curious about what all you do with their milk. I don't know that much about butter and cheese making, although I have an interest there. Is 7% enough fat for making butter? Also, I have heard that you have to keep the bucks away from the nannies to prevent the milk from being tainted. Do you do that?
> 
> I know that one day I will want a milk producing animal - either goat or bovine. I want to make home made butters and cheeses.
> 
> ...


I keep my bucks in a separate pasture so I can control breedings. 

Yes, the butterfat is high enough to make butter. I just fill a quart jar half full of whole milk, let it get to room temperature and then shake it for about 20 minutes. I have a couple of does that often are over 8% - so for butter making (if I remember) I keep their milk separate.

Anything you can do with cows milk you can pretty much do with goats milk. The high butterfat in the Nigerian milk also means you get more cheese per lb of milk. 

If you click on the link under my signature there are educational links on my website.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

terri9630 said:


> I've been looking for some Nigerian dwarfs for a good 6 months now. I really don't want large goats. Don't want a freezer dedicated to milk... I'd rather have a couple of small goats I can stagger breedings/milking.


PM me I know a few breeders in your state and AZ that have some prertty nice production goats. Also a really good breeder of National Top 10 milkers in Texas. She doesn't advertise on the web or use email - very old school. I can send you her contact info. Some of my herd go back to animals from her.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Diatoms are _made_ of rock, (specifically silica) they have no need to become fossilized, they come that way. They have a silica exo-skeleton.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I think it's pretty clear that our ancestors kept their herds alive without chemical wormers because their herds were on proper pasture and were hardier animals. Goats on pasture eating off the ground instead of feet on the trunk and heads in the leaves will have issues with worms.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

so does anyone have experience raising pigeons? i was thinking that a person might be able to live trap them and keep them in a urban or suburban setup. feed might be a problem in a hard times situation. so how would you feed your flock in that type of situation.

dean


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> I believe it is also important to realize that our ancestors kept their animals alive somehow before chemical wormers were ever introduced.


There are also ways to limit parasites other than using a dewormer. For example, given the opportunity, goats will browse and rarely eat below 6 inches from the ground by choice. This alone, can drastically reduce infestation. Also, by rotating grazing stock, maybe following goats with chickens, can also reduce worm loads. Anything in a cage, a person should be able to limit parasites by keeping them clean and being careful with the feed.


> Feed is costly as you must feed them gamebird feed.


That could become a huge issue as feed prices keep rising.


> I think it's pretty clear that our ancestors kept their herds alive without chemical wormers because their herds were on proper pasture and were hardier animals.


Genetics is another issue. It might be wise to breed with an eye to hardiness and survivability, rather than focusing purely on production. Goats as an example again, I have one old girl that has a gorgeous udder, perfect teats, and all the feed I can pour in her, she converts to milk. However, she is thin, and always flirting with mineral deficiency, kinda high maintenance. I have another girl who doesn't produce nearly as much, though it's a respectable amount. Her production doesn't vary as much with variations in feed either, so if they are both on brush and limited goodies, they produce about the same, but the second doe keeps better condition and puts on weight quicker when I dry them up. In a dairy, the first doe would be a keeper, in my situation, the second is probably the better choice, and if it ever happens that I can't buy feed, the first is probably getting retired.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Wags if you get a buckling out of Rita I'm interested in buying one. Is Rita polled? I see her daughter is and I'm wondering who carries the polled gene. Polled of course is a bonus I have no problem driving down for a goat or two.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I was under the impression it was the fossils too.
> It is from *a crustacean* of some type, isn't it?


Diatoms are *SINGLE CELLED* ALGAE that come in many shapes
*DE* is the* rock* that is formed from these shells, the same way Limestone is formed from mollusk shells, or Sandstone from sand


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

KrisD said:


> Wags if you get a buckling out of Rita I'm interested in buying one. Is Rita polled? I see her daughter is and I'm wondering who carries the polled gene. Polled of course is a bonus I have no problem driving down for a goat or two.


Rita isn't polled - the sire was. I have a half sister to Rita, Choc-o-latte that is bred to a polled buck this year. That is my only shot at polled kids for this year. 

Rita's sire really passed along some fabulous milking genetics - every one of them have been an improvement on their dam sometimes quite dramatically both in production and teat length. He gave me a good base and now I will build from there for a feminine looking doe with high production. All of it without any grain.

I really do think Nigerians are the perfect little homestead animal. No worries about young kids or older folks being around them. I loved my cows but having a foot stepped on by one of them hurts a heck of a lot worse than being stepped on by one of my little goats. 

Did I mention I could bring the whole herd into the garage if need be to keep them safer from two legged predators in a SHTF situation. Small and portable definitely has it's advantages.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

longshot38 said:


> so does anyone have experience raising pigeons? i was thinking that a person might be able to live trap them and keep them in a urban or suburban setup. feed might be a problem in a hard times situation. so how would you feed your flock in that type of situation.
> 
> dean


I actually know a Dutch girl on Justin.tv whose father raised such during WW2, to help feed their family...It can be done.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Some good results are being discussed here.
Thanks!
I, myself, have Katahdins and Dorper X Katahdin Hair Sheep, Pigs, chickens and geese...Thus the discussion of their care post SHTF is necessary.
I am curious, as a wormer, since most wormers are nothing more than mild poison, if whole apples to pigs would work, since the seed of the apple is mild poison.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Our mutt goats (alpine/nubian mix) are medium to low producers but give us enough milk to drik and make cheese and sell a couple gallons a week, they get grain on the stand and fresh hay, but they live in the woods are quit full and happy sounding by time to go into the stalls at night. We have decided on a final of 2 unrelated in-tact bucks and breeding 9 does in series of three's (spring fall off) rotating. that should give us constant milk supply, not over burden by pasture/woods/gardens and give us a manageable birthing to butchering timeline. ( not started butchering ours yet, first two are off to freezer camp in Jan, we would have done it earlier but we actually sold/bartered our meaties away for a deal we could not pass up (side by side fridge less than 1 yr old for a buck a wether and a doe)


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## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> I raise quail in my city backyard. The roosters don't seem to bother any of my neighbors. In fact, I don't think that they know what they are hearing. As a matter of fact, I have had as many as 13 chicken hens on my property and the neighbors didn't know. Their sounds blended in with those made by the crows and seagulls. You don't have to keep a lot of males quail around. Most people that I know tend to eat the extra males and keep the number of hens around that they want.


How wide is your back yard? Mine is 45' wide and I'd guess twice as deep. I don't think my neighbors would complain, though I don't want to give them reason to either.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Pumpkin is a natural wormer as is wormwood. I don't know the doses off the top of my head. Management makes a huge difference in worm load and overall health in general. Rotating pastures and not overstocking housing or pasture helps. Grass based dairying and "natural selection" (i.e. no heroics to save a sick kid) also insure harder animals.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

longshot38 said:


> so does anyone have experience raising pigeons? i was thinking that a person might be able to live trap them and keep them in a urban or suburban setup. feed might be a problem in a hard times situation. so how would you feed your flock in that type of situation.
> 
> dean


I don't raise pigeons but I have a lot of experience in observing them in the city. They eat some of everything! I've fed them potato chips, bread crusts, tuna, etc...when having lunch in a downtown park. The only thing that I've seen them pick up and NOT eat is a cigarette butt. They be easy enough to trap if you used a drop net and baited an area for them. I don't think that there is a way to attract them if they aren't already in your neighborhood, though.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Hairsheep said:


> Some good results are being discussed here.
> Thanks!
> I, myself, have Katahdins and Dorper X Katahdin Hair Sheep, Pigs, chickens and geese...Thus the discussion of their care post SHTF is necessary.
> I am curious, as a wormer, since most wormers are nothing more than mild poison, if whole apples to pigs would work, since the seed of the apple is mild poison.


Pumpkin seeds are said to be good for worming goats, too. I've never tried it though.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

wes917 said:


> How wide is your back yard? Mine is 45' wide and I'd guess twice as deep. I don't think my neighbors would complain, though I don't want to give them reason to either.


I'm not too sure about the width of my back yard, but my quail cage is pretty close to my tenant's house next door. We also have two other neighbors with properties that back up to ours and they are just as close to this portion of my yard. I'll try to look up the property width and get back to you on that.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Diatoms are *SINGLE CELLED* ALGAE that come in many shapes
> *DE* is the* rock* that is formed from these shells, the same way Limestone is formed from mollusk shells, or Sandstone from sand


"The skeleton of a diatom, or frustule, is made of very pure silica coated with a layer of organic material."

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/chromista/diatoms/diatommm.html

They come this way. The skeleton is made from silica. Silica is rock. Fossilization would be redundant.


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> so does anyone have experience raising pigeons? i was thinking that a person might be able to live trap them and keep them in a urban or suburban setup. feed might be a problem in a hard times situation. so how would you feed your flock in that type of situation.


They're like little flying chickens  We have a pair of homers. They do eat everything. They feel really meaty as well, considering their size. I would suggest buying homing pigeons rather than trapping feral ones, because in theory, you could turn your homers out to forage during the day and have them return at night. Feral ones probably would not. Ours cost us $5 apiece since we weren't looking for winning racers or special colors, so it's not like they are cost-prohibitive either. Probably, keeping a few bantams would be more practical, but pigeons are fun.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> so does anyone have experience raising pigeons? i was thinking that a person might be able to live trap them and keep them in a urban or suburban setup. feed might be a problem in a hard times situation. so how would you feed your flock in that type of situation.


They are easy to trap.

Once they *start nesting and raising young*, you can let them out to find much of their own food, and they will return to roost.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> "The skeleton of a diatom, or frustule, is made of very pure silica coated with a layer of organic material."
> 
> http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/chromista/diatoms/diatommm.html
> 
> They come this way. The skeleton is made from silica. Silica is rock. *Fossilization would be redundant*.


I never said Diatoms *were* fossils
I said FOSSILS were rock

Read Post #4 where I said 


> It's powdered *ROCK*


Read Posts # 9 and #11 for the *context* that followed


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> I'm not too sure about the width of my back yard, but my quail cage is pretty close to my tenant's house next door. We also have two other neighbors with properties that back up to ours and they are just as close to this portion of my yard. I'll try to look up the property width and get back to you on that.


 Tell me about the quail please. What do you feed them? How many does it take to fill a belly? Are the eggs as good as I hear? How hardy are they?


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I called DE fossilized diatoms. I'm not the only one who says that. http://www.answers.com/topic/what-are-fossilized-diatoms-called


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm not the only one who says that. [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/what-are-fossilized-diatoms-called"]http://www.answers.com/topic/what-are-fossilized-diatoms-called[/URL]


Yeah. lots of terms get misused, then repeated.
In the end, it's just Silicon Dioxide, which is the same thing as Quartz and sand


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> i was thinking that a person might be able to live trap them


I've caught several with this trap I built:


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## janetn (Apr 26, 2012)

Wags - I too am interested in pygmy goats. One question I havent been able to get a straight answer on is how much hay and grain do they eat in the winter if they have no pasture. Could you enlighten me. Use for an example a freshened doe. Seems the pygmys are going to be the most effecient dairy animals for a small homstead, with the price of feed effeciency is becoming a bigger issue.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I havent been able to get a straight answer on is how much hay and grain do they eat in the winter if they have no pasture.


A *full sized* sheep will do OK on 5 lbs of hay and half to one pound of grain per day.
I think you could half that for a Pygmy.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

PrettyPaisley said:


> I think it's pretty clear that our ancestors kept their herds alive without chemical wormers because their herds were on proper pasture and were hardier animals. Goats on pasture eating off the ground instead of feet on the trunk and heads in the leaves will have issues with worms.


Your ancestors did use the equivalent of chemical wormers, they used herbal vermifuges and vermicides on their animals just like they used them for themselves. Everybody and everything without exception got infested with worms that had to be gotten rid of through the use of herbal toxins that either stunned or killed the worms.

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Hairsheep said:


> I am curious, as a wormer, since most wormers are nothing more than mild poison, if whole apples to pigs would work, since the seed of the apple is mild poison.


No. That won't work. The seeds just go right through them and the apple flesh doesn't have any effect as a wormer.

Apple seeds and the seeds of any other plant in the rose family (yes, apple is a member of the rose family as are many other fruits, nuts and berries) all contain *cyanide* in the kernal of the seed. The outer shell of the seed does not get broken down or digested in the digestive system, it just passes through so generally the cyanide in the inner kernal doesn't get released into the digestive system. 

Cyanide is not a mild poison and in high enough doses it will instantly kill whatever ate it within seconds. So don't go getting any ideas about crushing the seeds of fruits with cyanide content in the seeds to deworm your animals, more likely than not it will just kill your animals or at the very least make them extremely ill.

.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've caught several with this trap I built:


that looks brilliant. thanks for sharing it.

dean


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A *full sized* sheep will do OK on 5 lbs of hay and half to one pound of grain per day.
> I think you could half that for a Pygmy.


Mine are doing just fine at the moment on weeds and a cup each of oats...I suppose, i could rely upon weeds and grass alone, minus the oats, in a SHTF situation.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

naturelover said:


> No. That won't work. The seeds just go right through them and the apple flesh doesn't have any effect as a wormer.
> 
> Apple seeds and the seeds of any other plant in the rose family (yes, apple is a member of the rose family as are many other fruits, nuts and berries) all contain *cyanide* in the kernal of the seed. The outer shell of the seed does not get broken down or digested in the digestive system, it just passes through so generally the cyanide in the inner kernal doesn't get released into the digestive system.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information!
Thats why this discussion is going on....Discovery!


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> Tell me about the quail please. What do you feed them? How many does it take to fill a belly? Are the eggs as good as I hear? How hardy are they?


I feed mine gamebird crumble because they require more protein in their diets than chickens. In a SHTF situation, I'd probably feed them boiled eggs, amaranth and other "weed" seeds in order to raise them to slaughter.

As far as how many it takes to fill a belly, well that depends on the size of the belly and what side dishes you have to go along with the quail! Some varieties of quail are larger than others. The jumbo varieties tend to have more meat than the regular ones. I would want to have 2 or 3 to go along with the rest of my meal. Others might be inclined to prepare 4 or 5.

The eggs are great and taste exactly like a chicken egg to me. The texture is a bit more refined than with a chicken egg and they scramble together much better. I have an egg customer that prefers to use them to make cornbread. I don't really see a difference, myself.

The birds are quite hardy. I still have 4 birds from my original hatch in 2009. I live in the snowbelt and my birds live in their cage year round. The only concessions to cold weather is that I do give them some bedding to burrow into and I apply plastic sheeting to the cage to keep the wind and snow out. They are essentially wild birds and acclimate to the weather.

Here is an article that I wrote about them for Backyard Poultry. The bird pictured at the top of the article is one of the first ones that hatched in 2009:

http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issues/5/5-2/smooth_quailing.html


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

WAGS raises Nigerians not Pygmys. Pygmys are a meat type goats with very little milk. Nigerians are dairy goats. I have raised both but I prefer Nigerians because I can use the milk and make cheese and such and the wethers taste the same if you eat them. My Nigerians if they are not in milk can live off air. A small flake of hay and a handful of grain when not in milk is all mine require. I pasture mine everyday. I don't have to grain mine, I just do it because they like it.


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## janetn (Apr 26, 2012)

KrisD said:


> WAGS raises Nigerians not Pygmys. Pygmys are a meat type goats with very little milk. Nigerians are dairy goats. I have raised both but I prefer Nigerians because I can use the milk and make cheese and such and the wethers taste the same if you eat them. My Nigerians if they are not in milk can live off air. A small flake of hay and a handful of grain when not in milk is all mine require. I pasture mine everyday. I don't have to grain mine, I just do it because they like it.


Thank you very much for that info!!!!!!!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> that looks brilliant. thanks for sharing it.


LOL No "brilliance" required.
I bought the door, but one could be made that would work just as well.
The "box" portion is just hardware cloth and "J -clips"

If you make a larger box, you can fabricate a "*drop trap*" that will let birds in but they can't get back out, and all it takes is a few pieces of wood, or even wire.

Those are also useful on your coop to allow your birds to come back in without letting predators in too

The red end goes to the outside/ This will let the birds land, and enter the "tunnel" portion.
Then they drop down into the trap/coop, but the side extensions on the inside won'l allow them to fly back out because they *can't land on the entrance if they can't have their wings fully spread*

The tunnel itself is about an inch larger in height and width than the largest bird you want to catch, and place it as high as you can in the trap/coop


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

janetn said:


> Wags - I too am interested in pygmy goats. One question I havent been able to get a straight answer on is how much hay and grain do they eat in the winter if they have no pasture. Could you enlighten me. Use for an example a freshened doe. Seems the pygmys are going to be the most effecient dairy animals for a small homstead, with the price of feed effeciency is becoming a bigger issue.


Nigerians and Pygmy goats both of their origins in West Africa - however the Nigerian was developed into a dairy breed here in the USA. Nigerians are the fastest growing breed of goats on milk test and production numbers are increasing all the time. 

I do grass based dairying with my Nigerians. They get about a cup of alfalfa pellets twice a day plus whatever pellets they eat while being milked. Otherwise they have pasture to browse. The only time I give them hay is if it is really pouring rain, icy or snowy out. For a herd of about 15 I typically go through about 6 bales of hay a year. 

I don't know what the feed requirements would be for goats on a dry lot. If they didn't have pasture you would probably need to let them have a good quality free choice grass hay (always available) - they need it to have a well developed rumen and if where you live is cold they need the long fibers to help them keep their body heat. 

It would take some experimenting to see what each goat requires to be in optimal health. Some of my does are such easy keepers that they don't need the alfalfa pellets other than needing the extra calcium. Others need a little extra pellets to keep them in top form.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Wags said:


> Nigerians and Pygmy goats both of their origins in West Africa - however the Nigerian was developed into a dairy breed here in the USA. Nigerians are the fastest growing breed of goats on milk test and production numbers are increasing all the time.
> 
> I do grass based dairying with my Nigerians. They get about a cup of alfalfa pellets twice a day plus whatever pellets they eat while being milked. Otherwise they have pasture to browse. The only time I give them hay is if it is really pouring rain, icy or snowy out. For a herd of about 15 I typically go through about 6 bales of hay a year.
> 
> ...


Round bales or small squares or large squares  

Our full size does (3 +2 unbred=4 adults IMHO) go through about 20 small squares every 3 months- throw in one more for our in tact buck. the does get alfalfa only as they waste too much of anything else we have tried so the costs even out. The buck gets sudan or brome or field depending on what is available and cheap. The does in milk get 2 cups a day of oats/all stock/wheat in spring/summer and i throw corn in the mix in winter. I could push production with better grain but do not have the need to i guess.
ETA: we also use replamin for vitamins/copper/mineral as it come sout waaaay cheaper and has proven more effective


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

TheMartianChick said:


> Here is an article that I wrote about them for Backyard Poultry. The bird pictured at the top of the article is one of the first ones that hatched in 2009:
> 
> http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issues/5/5-2/smooth_quailing.html


Excellent article! Thank you for the link!

I'm sure you already know this, but you are a great writer!


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

bluetogreens said:


> Round bales or small squares or large squares
> 
> Our full size does (3 +2 unbred=4 adults IMHO) go through about 20 small squares every 3 months- throw in one more for our in tact buck. the does get alfalfa only as they waste too much of anything else we have tried so the costs even out. The buck gets sudan or brome or field depending on what is available and cheap. The does in milk get 2 cups a day of oats/all stock/wheat in spring/summer and i throw corn in the mix in winter. I could push production with better grain but do not have the need to i guess.
> ETA: we also use replamin for vitamins/copper/mineral as it come sout waaaay cheaper and has proven more effective


50-55lb bales - I have about 2 1/2 acres of pasture for them. For a month or so after christmas they also get untreated left over xmas trees to munch on.

The alfalfa pellets mean much less waste as opposed to feeding alfalfa hay. The alfalfa is grown & pelleted by a local farm and pelleted on an as needed basis so it is always green and smells fresh.

For minerals mine get SweetLix Meatmaker 16:8 - they do quite well on it.


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## Bettacreek (May 19, 2012)

If you're looking at an economic collapse, get some ducks and turkeys. Pekin ducks, to be exact, and a cross of turkeys (something with broad breasted genes). They are THE best foragers here, hardly eat any feed. All of mine have survived without any supplemental feed in the summer, though egg production isn't going to be as good. They are ALL loud though, any kind of bird that is typically raised for meat/eggs (chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, guinea) are all going to be loud. Quail are the quietest of all of them, and of course the smallest, eat the least and have a better meat and egg to feed ratio, however, you have to feed them, they cannot free-range, etc. 
Rabbits can be great, however, some people have major issues with getting them to actually breed. Yes, sounds like it's impossible to have rabbits that won't breed, right? Well, it's a sad fact for some people that they haven't had luck with rabbits. 
Sheep I think would be an awesome asset to have. We bought a butcher lamb this year, tastes great, fairly economical (more so if you don't have to buy the lamb maybe?), and not as many people are willing to eat it (too strong of a taste for many city slickers), plus they don't really eat much, and are easier to pen than goats.

ETA: Pumpkin is supposed to help with worming. I'm not sure how true it is, but mine have been getting pumpkins as they start to get soft from when I bought a bunch to decorate the porch.


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## janetn (Apr 26, 2012)

Wags thank you again for the info and your patience with a ignorant noob. We have pasture most months, but here in MI the winters require we feed hay. I raised full sized goats back in the day and for the two of us they just produce too much milk. Then their is the price of feed! Im probably looking 12 to 16 weeks a year having to feed hay. Which doesnt sound like it would be to big of an expence with the Nigerians.

One more question :benice: How big are the kids when you butcher them?


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Wags said:


> PM me I know a few breeders in your state and AZ that have some prertty nice production goats. Also a really good breeder of National Top 10 milkers in Texas. She doesn't advertise on the web or use email - very old school. I can send you her contact info. Some of my herd go back to animals from her.


Thank you! I'd about given up on finding them. A lady near me has Lamanchas. But they are bigger than I want.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

janetn said:


> Wags thank you again for the info and your patience with a ignorant noob. We have pasture most months, but here in MI the winters require we feed hay. I raised full sized goats back in the day and for the two of us they just produce too much milk. Then their is the price of feed! Im probably looking 12 to 16 weeks a year having to feed hay. Which doesnt sound like it would be to big of an expence with the Nigerians.
> 
> One more question :benice: How big are the kids when you butcher them?


No the expense to feed them hay and alfalfa pellets wouldn't be all that much for just a couple of does. 

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian so I've never butchered any of my kids. Size can really vary at 6 months of age - some lines are slower to mature than others. That slow to mature factor is why I usually breed my does to kid for the first time near their 2nd birthday.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Wags said:


> No the expense to feed them hay and alfalfa pellets wouldn't be all that much for just a couple of does.
> 
> I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian so I've never butchered any of my kids. Size can really vary at 6 months of age - some lines are slower to mature than others. That slow to mature factor is why I usually breed my does to kid for the first time near their 2nd birthday.



But would be outrageously expensive during an economic collapse!
Our object here, is to see how to get by with OUT buying things(barter, is allowed however).


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

We would just graze the goats along side the road in the ditches and or cut the grass and bring it home and dry it for winter or use it right away.

Same for the donkeys.


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## marinemomtatt (Oct 8, 2006)

Wags....What are you doing to combat the Potassium rich soil here in the valley (rich as in TOO high...reason why many farmers and ranchers buy feed/forage/alfalfa from the otherside of the Cascades)?


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Bettacreek said:


> If you're looking at an economic collapse, get some ducks and turkeys. Pekin ducks, to be exact, and a cross of turkeys (something with broad breasted genes).


I believe pekins are horrible brooders, so if you raise them for teotwawki, make sure you have a broody bird too. And don't let your turkey breasts get too big or they won't reproduce either.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Nice article, Martian Chick!


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

marinemomtatt said:


> Wags....What are you doing to combat the Potassium rich soil here in the valley (rich as in TOO high...reason why many farmers and ranchers buy feed/forage/alfalfa from the otherside of the Cascades)?


I have panels run on my goats any time one of them dies. Never had potassium levels be out of the normal range. The lack of selenium and copper is much more of an issue. Good minerals and supplements are a must. Those can be stocked in advance. I have to special order the Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8 that I use, so I usually have 6 months or more on hand at any given time.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Rabbits can be great, however, some people have major issues with getting them to actually breed. Yes, sounds like it's impossible to have rabbits that won't breed, right? Well, it's a sad fact for some people that they haven't had luck with rabbits


That would be me. I have a buck & 3 does. I know the one doe is a good mother as she has raised kits before. Last time she had 1 baby. The other 2 does did not get bred back. One had 3 kits once & they all died. I am going to try them one more time before moving on to new stock. I usually give them 3 tries before they are out of here.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

bourbonred said:


> I believe pekins are horrible brooders, so if you raise them for teotwawki, make sure you have a broody bird too. And don't let your turkey breasts get too big or they won't reproduce either.


What kind of turkey do you recommend?


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

With the mentioned coturnix quail, keep in mind that they do NOT hatch out their own kids. Not really a SHTF animal imo. Some people get by having bantam chickens hatch them out, but they often get crushed as well apparently. Only other way I could find to hatch them out is a women putting an egg between her breasts for a few weeks. any other off grid solutions? I dont know them... Beyond that they are a really neat animal. More efficient at converting their feed to egg weight then any other egg birds. 

As for ducks, there is a line out there called golden hybrid 300, that is supposed to forage as well as other ducks and lay as efficiently as chickens. They apparently go broody as well, so they are a great pick if you want ducks. Im currently switching over to ducks after a few neighbor complaints about my roosters crowing in the morning. 

I really like rabbits. Super easy to feed, house and breed. Yo could probably keep a small population going just from collected weeds just about anywhere in the country. Ive got mine eating juniper branches! Definitely not their standard meal, but I kept putting branches in with them and a few of them started eating it now they all do. Goats barely even eat them, but now my rabbits do. 

Personally I like goats best. I live in the high desert. We have grasses here but they arent to productive. Beef cattle are run on the grasses here but they cover massive areas. Some tribes not to far use sheep but they ran the land into the ground, (poor management imo) and again cover massive areas. With goats though I have much wider food options here. More reliable food as well. So Im working on establishing a better range of trees and bushes to feed me AND the goats. Being browsers, this is healthier for the goats as well, and will lower worm issues. Also I plan to grow LOTS of squash for their seeds for the goats as others mentioned, and a few other things. 

Im also a fan of the smaller goats others mentioned. Except its to expensive, and takes to many years for me to get a good nigerian herd going. Its very expensive in my area for the few animals proven to give a half gallon a day, and of the other milk lines it is still 350 plus... and from there Id have to still wait until I grew them to breeding age and bred them and HOPE they produce at that level. 

So my answer to that is to get a few of the near best nigerians (the 350$ level) I can source locally. As well as adding the best of several full size breeds. I use males from my nigerian line... and over time Im going to scale down the size of the other goat breeds. Also select for year round breeding like the nigerians have. Lots of people work with "minis" which are a single cross of a full size to a nigerian. Im going to keep crossing them with nigerians to get them the size of nigerians instead of stopping at the in between size of "minis" As well as mixing several breeds into this and selecting for hardiness under quality but low tech management. 

Going this route I also have the milk from my adult full sized does NOW instead of waiting for my nigerian herd to mature. Ultimately I should have no problem matching or beating production levels of the best of the nigerians while also bringing other traits to goats that small. I would assume that with crossing the breeds Id be better able to select for hardiness but that remains to be seen. 

Actually if cash is an issue and you want productive small goats the route I laid out is probably best. Your "average" nigerian seems to hit about 1 quart a day. The average barnyard goat you can often source cheaply is around a gallon. I know two people who made "minis" from low quality stock, nigerian bucks bred to a full sized breed. They end up having some in the in between size that just ok, but a few almost as productive as the full sized animals. A few generations of that and you should be able to do pretty well even with the cheapest goats you can find if your goal was a mixed herd that was in the small size. 

I am trying to get the best stock I can and select for hardiness and the rest, but Ive thought of going to as many herds as I can. Especially people who dont pamper their animal. Pick out those animals that excel despite the slightly rougher conditions then other herds deal with. 

Some people mentioned production, and that some productive animals need more minerals and better nutrition. Of course, they produce more! What is wrong with that? If you just want them to free range it can be an issue, but if your purposely growing and collecting foods for them I can actually raise a better diet then I can ever buy at my local feedstores. Although many things will take years to grow in. If I cant feed them well enough, I can just scale back their production.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Any heirloom breed will reproduce. Though I only have experience with bourbonred turkeys, I don't think there is a great deal of difference in breast size among them, (research may prove me different). Bettacreek mentioned using some broad-breasted genetics. The only way I can think to do that is to try to keep a broad-breasted male (the cornish-cross of the turkey world) on the skinny side so he could breed. If one kept breeding for larger breasts, eventually, their birds would be too large to breed naturally.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Wags said:


> Good minerals and supplements are a must. Those can be stocked in advance. I have to special order the Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8 that I use, so I usually have 6 months or more on hand at any given time.


Wags, I really enjoyed your site and am interested in the nigerians though I've never had goats. Selenium deficiency is a issue sometimes in KY in calves. What do you plan to do for selenium if the shtf and you can't purchase?


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

BTW, anyone thinking of rabbits for a survival small animal option needs to check out the sticky at the top of the rabbit forum upstairs which has 16 pages of discussion on feeding rabbits naturally without buying pellets. Lots of work, but good info if you needed it.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

bourbonred said:


> BTW, anyone thinking of rabbits for a survival small animal option needs to check out the sticky at the top of the rabbit forum upstairs which has 16 pages of discussion on feeding rabbits naturally without buying pellets. Lots of work, but good info if you needed it.


The neighbor man let his rabbit go free, since he no longer wished to feed it...I felt sorry for it and put it in a cage...i fed it cracked corn, old bread, potato peelings, carrot shavings, cucumber shavings, oats(dried), weeds, grass clippings and garden refuse...It gained weight just fine.
Just something to think about in a SHTF situation.


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

Hairsheep, we have had caged rabbits and loose rabbits. The loose ones grow much faster and bigger than the fully-fed caged ones. Even if they leave pellets in their feeders between every feeding, the ones that run free grow better and are just as healthy. EXCEPT for breeding. Yes, they successfully breed, and successfully have litters in nicely prepared nests. But there isn't anywhere the rabbits can make a nest that the chickens can't get to, and the chickens will eat the baby rabbits every time. I swear, chickens are mini-tyranosaurus rexes! At least we don't have a big rat problem - the chickens take care of those, too.
Kit


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

KIT.S said:


> Hairsheep, we have had caged rabbits and loose rabbits. The loose ones grow much faster and bigger than the fully-fed caged ones. Even if they leave pellets in their feeders between every feeding, the ones that run free grow better and are just as healthy. EXCEPT for breeding. Yes, they successfully breed, and successfully have litters in nicely prepared nests. But there isn't anywhere the rabbits can make a nest that the chickens can't get to, and the chickens will eat the baby rabbits every time. I swear, chickens are mini-tyranosaurus rexes! *At least we don't have a big rat problem - the chickens take care of those, too.*
> Kit


My dumb chickens won't go after the mice. They jump out of the way when they hop out of the feeder.


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> My dumb chickens won't go after the mice. They jump out of the way when they hop out of the feeder.


It's something they have to learn. If you can get one chicken to eat them though, the rest generally catch on quick. Also, the ones raised by hens rather than incubators are light-years better at figuring out foraging. I'm not a huge fan of broody hens since they quit laying for months at a time, but I do think it's wise to keep at least a couple around.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

gracie88 said:


> It's something they have to learn. If you can get one chicken to eat them though, the rest generally catch on quick. Also, the ones raised by hens rather than incubators are light-years better at figuring out foraging. I'm not a huge fan of broody hens since they quit laying for months at a time, but I do think it's wise to keep at least a couple around.


They will eat them if I catch and kill them, but I guess they don't understand why the live ones don't lay down so they can be eaten. Won't even try to catch them. Half of them are hen raised.


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

Huh. I got no idea then. Mine had the most problem trying even dead ones to start with, but I don't think they realized they were dead at first either. Weird birds.


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

_My dumb chickens won't go after the mice

_Maybe that was what the cat was doing: teaching the chickens to hunt mice! DD watched the cat play with his mouse one day, then get tired of it and took it to the rooster. The cat dropped the mouse in front of the rooster, sat and watched, and the rooster called the hens to dinner, and the running and chasing began. 
Our animals are the strangest!
Kit


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

KIT.S said:


> _My dumb chickens won't go after the mice
> 
> _Maybe that was what the cat was doing: teaching the chickens to hunt mice! DD watched the cat play with his mouse one day, then get tired of it and took it to the rooster. The cat dropped the mouse in front of the rooster, sat and watched, and the rooster called the hens to dinner, and the running and chasing began.
> Our animals are the strangest!
> Kit


Speaking of chickens, as a SHTF critter, i was wondering if any of you thought of Rhode Island Red Bantams, in a chicken tractor, and if they could forage enough from grass, bugs, small snakes, frogs, toads, etc to keep laying eggs?


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

silverseeds said:


> With the mentioned coturnix quail, keep in mind that they do NOT hatch out their own kids. Not really a SHTF animal imo. Some people get by having bantam chickens hatch them out, but they often get crushed as well apparently. Only other way I could find to hatch them out is a women putting an egg between her breasts for a few weeks. any other off grid solutions? I dont know them... Beyond that they are a really neat animal. More efficient at converting their feed to egg weight then any other egg birds.


 My plan for a backup hatching method involves the use of hot water bottles in a small styrofoam cooler. I had planned to test it out this past summer and forgot. I will be trying it in the Spring (I set a reminder in my calendar.) Quail eggs aren't as picky as chicken eggs in the incubator, so I believe that it could work in a grid down situation. Someone suggested that a croody sebright hen might be a good choice for hatching out quail chicks, but I don't have any bantam chickens. It still seems as though the hens would break the eggs. 

Others have had luck in getting the quail to hatch their own young, but it requires an awful lot of space to make them go broody. Most people that have done it don't keep them in hutch-style cages, but in an aviary with only a few birds. Again, I've never tried it, but one of the breeders that I purchased eggs from on the backyardchickens site says that it works.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I have 3 pygora does, usually 2 milking at any one time. Enough milk for the 2 of us. I only feed a little oats to the milkers. I make my hay from the meadow by hand. I shear them 2 times a year. I have rabbits, chickens and pigeons, all get oats, garden waste, plants I gleann from the woods and my hay....James


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

James - how much milk do the two of you go through in a week?

My husband and I go through about a gallon per week (plus about a quart of half and half). Would two Nigerians be enough for us? Wags?

And are there Nigerian lines that can be bred at about a year, or should they all wait 'til they're about two?


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

I just got my girls. Both due in February. I'm hoping they will kill those little weedy trees. If they cant then I give up, they win.

View attachment 1262


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Anyone thinking of guinea pigs?


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMartianChick said:


> My plan for a backup hatching method involves the use of hot water bottles in a small styrofoam cooler. I had planned to test it out this past summer and forgot. I will be trying it in the Spring (I set a reminder in my calendar.) Quail eggs aren't as picky as chicken eggs in the incubator, so I believe that it could work in a grid down situation. Someone suggested that a croody sebright hen might be a good choice for hatching out quail chicks, but I don't have any bantam chickens. It still seems as though the hens would break the eggs.
> 
> Others have had luck in getting the quail to hatch their own young, but it requires an awful lot of space to make them go broody. Most people that have done it don't keep them in hutch-style cages, but in an aviary with only a few birds. Again, I've never tried it, but one of the breeders that I purchased eggs from on the backyardchickens site says that it works.


I would imagine keeping the eggs as close to a woodburning stove or any other heat source would work for the temperature needed for incubation. I've heard of people hatching eggs that they kept on top of their fridge or PC.
My mom used to bring in the goose eggs once they started to pip and she'd hatch them out on the oven door of the wood stove. 

I have seramas which are really tiny bantams and they seem to go broody quite often, like after laying about a dozen eggs only.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

TheMartianChick said:


> Others have had luck in getting the quail to hatch their own young, but it requires an awful lot of space to make them go broody. Most people that have done it don't keep them in hutch-style cages, but in an aviary with only a few birds. Again, I've never tried it, but one of the breeders that I purchased eggs from on the backyardchickens site says that it works.


Im wondering if the person who said this had a different type of quail then coturnix? 

I say this because I researched them heavily and talked to several who have devoted their lives to them while doing so. None of them heard of someone pulling this off, because I was concerned about exactly that. 



sdnapier said:


> Anyone thinking of guinea pigs?


I tried them. they werent doing well in my semi heated shed so I gave up. 



Sanza said:


> I would imagine keeping the eggs as close to a woodburning stove or any other heat source would work for the temperature needed for incubation.


That would only work if you kept them within a few degrees for about 18 days if I remember right with no more then half 1-2 hour intervals that the temps dropped a day. Also need to keep the humidity up and mostly consistent. 


> I have seramas which are really tiny bantams and they seem to go broody quite often, like after laying about a dozen eggs only.


This would work with truly small broody bantams. Even then some folks loose eggs, but some work out.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Sanza*
> _I would imagine keeping the eggs as close to a woodburning stove or *any other heat source* would work for the temperature needed for incubation. _


Google "Kerosene Incubator" and you'll find lots of designs
I imagine even large candles would work


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

sdnapier said:


> Anyone thinking of guinea pigs?


I think they are harder to raise than rabbits, but they are an option


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I imagine even large candles would work


Sure but keeping candles burning at a consistent temp as the burn down (the candles distance from whatever is heated will change the whole time) for 18 or so days would be a terrible hassle and waste of candles since you can simply use an animal like chickens or ducks that will lay well AND hatch their own young. imo anyway...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> you can simply* use an animal* like chickens or ducks that will lay well AND hatch their own young.


But that wasn't the *topic*


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

BoldViolet said:


> James - how much milk do the two of you go through in a week?


2 gallons maybe a little more. We don't drink any though. We make all our dairy products ourselves....James


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> But that wasn't the *topic*


 Yeah, pointing out there are animals that dont need special considerations to even hatch them off grid is totally off topic.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

silverseeds said:


> Sure but keeping candles burning at a consistent temp as the burn down (the candles distance from whatever is heated will change the whole time) for 18 or so days would be a terrible hassle and waste of candles since you can simply use an animal like chickens or ducks that will lay well AND hatch their own young. imo anyway...


 
Chickens and ducks are not as efficient at converting feed into food for people, though. Many breeds of ducks only hatch in the spring/summer and they take awhile to grow out. That would be a lot more feed to stockpile prior to the event that caused the emergency. Quail are also easier to hide in a shtf situation. I'd rather have a covert food source, if possible. If I were unable to hatch new birds, I could count on an existing flock to (quietly) provide plenty of eggs for three years if I moved them into my basement!


The person that I mentioned did have coturnix quail, in fact she posted a photo of one of her hens sitting on a nest in her aviary. Unfortunately having that few birds wouldn't be much help in a shtf situation.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

TheMartianChick said:


> Chickens and ducks are not as efficient at converting feed into food for people, though.


true, but they can also forage themselves if I want them to. collecting enough fod for a small population myself wouldnt be out of the question either. 



> Many breeds of ducks only hatch in the spring/summer and they take awhile to grow out. That would be a lot more feed to stockpile prior to the event that caused the emergency.


the difference isnt THAT drastic. Plus they can forage it themselves if I need them to. I live in the middle of nowhere. that isnt an option with the coturnix. 


> Quail are also easier to hide in a shtf situation. I'd rather have a covert food source, if possible. If I were unable to hatch new birds, I could count on an existing flock to (quietly) provide plenty of eggs for three years if I moved them into my basement!


I raised chickens in my closet in a city for over a year before I bought my current place. 3 years of eggs versus a lifetime? I can collect additional food. I cant however collect the means to hatch out coturnix easily. 

the coturnix definitely take up less space, but I still can easily hide the others as well. 



> The person that I mentioned did have coturnix quail, in fact she posted a photo of one of her hens sitting on a nest in her aviary. Unfortunately having that few birds wouldn't be much help in a shtf situation.


Well she did something that people who worked with them for decades and are leading researchers of them were unable to do or ever heard of despite trying to do exactly that. So however she did it most wouldnt be replicating it. 

your points still stand and are accurate. But I like redundancy in my preps. coturnix cant offer that imo. I might point out they also have inbreeding issues that can be hard to deal with if you dont have a source of new genetics over the years. With few others being likely to have them. chickens and ducks shouldnt have that issue, plus youll have an easier time sourcing new animals in a fallen society with ducks or especially chickens then you would coturnix if you needed to do so. 

Also since I CAN readily hatch out ducks and chickens they are a GREAT barter item. 

I did know a women who had lots of success hatching them with her bantams. In such an event Id have some of both. Only reason I dont have coturnix now is because you need a permit here. Easy enough to get Im told, but it costs money and a yearly inspection as well. Not a place i wanted to go. this state and a few others consider them a game animal being "quail" even though they cant breed with other quail and have been domesticated so long they cat even hatch themselves out.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

silverseeds said:


> Im wondering if the person who said this had a different type of quail then coturnix?
> 
> I say this because I researched them heavily and talked to several who have devoted their lives to them while doing so. None of them heard of someone pulling this off, because I was concerned about exactly that.
> 
> ...


I have seen it work so don't assume the hatching can't be done. The old timers knew how to do such things and I still have my mother (who's close to 90) around to still teach me a few of the old ways.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Yeah, pointing out there are animals that dont need special considerations to even hatch them off grid is totally *off topic*


Everyone knows *chickens* can hatch eggs.
The topic *I* commented on was *about incubators and quail :shrug:*


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Yes chickens can hatch eggs, but often factory produced chickens do not go broody or never stay broody long enough to hatch a clutch let alone raise them. So don't count on your hens being able to reproduce themselves if they were not raised by a mother. 

Come to think of it people are a lot like that too - without good parents children rarely grow up to become good parents.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Sanza said:


> I have seen it work so don't assume the hatching can't be done. The old timers knew how to do such things and I still have my mother (who's close to 90) around to still teach me a few of the old ways.


Never said it cant be done. I said coturnix quail cant do it. Also said there are easier ways. 

If martian chicks friend actually pulled off having them hatch their own, and indeed had coturnix rather then another species she pulled off something many tried and invested in doing but failed at. Including respected researchers in the field Ive talked to back when I researched them heavily. 



Bearfootfarm said:


> Everyone knows *chickens* can hatch eggs.
> The topic *I* commented on was *about incubators and quail :shrug:*


Whats your point? Im sure you believe you have one. there are easier means. More efficient means by my math. that is what I said, definitely NOT off topic. Feel free to pretend it was though. :spinsmiley: the few percentage point more efficiency of coturnix doesnt come close to making up for it imo. The greater topic of course is the importance of small animals. Or did you forget? covering the pros and cons of different animals was going on the entire thread. You were the first to posit it was off topic to do so. 

Coturnix were mentioned. I pointed out VERY on topic issues they have, that anyone considering them NEEDS to know. Martian chick expressed she wants to try alernative means to hatch them. did SHE go off topic? of course not. Then you mentioned candles, I pointed out that would be hard to regulate (as would martian chicks proposed method) We are on a survival forum discussing the benefits of small animals, all of this is literally the topic of course. 

Funny, this isnt the first time you said I was off topic when I disagreed with you. someone needs a bit of humility perhaps?

If you or someone else wants to use dozens of candles and constant adjustments for weeks or use one of the kerosene designs and lots of fuel have at it. Id rather use an animal that can feed itself if need be and can hatch its own eggs without me needing additional infrastructure or fuel. 

Wags, going broody has indeed been atleast partially bred out of many chickens as well. I can tell you for a fact though, chickens go broody just fine if you have breeds that still do it. Even if the came to me as an egg and were hatched at my house in my incubator. although even those less broody chickens can still do it, just rarely. Or atleast SOME of each breed can.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Whats your point? Im sure you believe you have one. there are easier means


My point is talking about* getting chickens* has nothing to do with *hatching quail eggs or heating an incubator.*

It's sort of like if someone asked "What kind of oil do I need in my car", and you answered "Get a horse and wagon".


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Actually it is more like someone saying they prefer coturnix. having listed great reasons to like them. an issue was raised for keeping them off grid that makes them hard to reproduce should you need more. Someone offers  additional albeit challenging high input ways to make it work. then I agreed it could work but there are much easier means with less inputs, and the raised issues for dealing with ducks and chickens is much easier off grid. 

All in a thread about the importance of small animals for *survival in a survival forum.* All very on topic. Martian chick could have just as accurately said I was off topic to point out they dont go broody. Or someone could have said you were off topic when you failed to answer whether or not your trying guinea pigs, (by the way they are not harder then rabbits, if you have rosehips or pine needle tea for their vitamin C needs didnt like my winters though so I gave up on them-for the record they taste like rabbit with a slight sweetness to it) and instead said you believe they are harder then rabbits. That wouldnt have been accurate either though, considering the nature of the thread and forum....


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Goodness, but we're all tense aren't we? Seems that every thread turns into a fight. Different folks, different strokes. Different locations, different solutions. That's what we're all looking for, isn't it. Solutions to "What if...?"


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

bourbonred said:


> That's what we're all looking for, isn't it. Solutions to "What if...?"


I would have thought so as well.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

bourbonred said:


> Different locations, different solutions. That's what we're all looking for, isn't it. Solutions to "What if...?"


Indeed, different solutions to raise critters in a time of need.

What if ...you have a batch of eggs in the incubator and the power is out? No broody to rush them out to her?

What I have done and works pretty darn good is this:

What you need is: 
1. Quart jars w/lids.
2. Old pieces of firebrick or whole ones.
3. Wood stove. 
4. Oven mitts
and last but not least
5. a home made bater thats roomy enough to put this all in.

As soon as you know the power is out, set things in motion. Do not wait 'just in case' it comes back on again. The longer you wait, the more the bator cools down and harder to get the temps back up again.

Move bator (gently) close to wood stove on to some thing thats firm. Preferable off the cooler floor.

Hopefully you have a pot/kettle of water already heating on it.
Fill up a jar of that hot water place in bator.
Watch temps closely!

Set fire bricks on top of stove to heat up.
When hot, put on oven mitts and place one piece of brick under the jar. 
This is where I like using broken ones. You can add a little or a lot. 

Do not touch the eggs with either one!

Keep watching for temps to see where they are going.

Meanwhile, place another brick on top of stove to replace the first one or if needed to put in for additional heat.

You will soon learn how much it will take in jars and brick to keep temps reasonably stable and for how long they will keep the heat.
The idea is to get as much mass as possible to hold said heat.
If the temps rise to high, crack open the lid a wee bit by placing a folded cloth in between lid and bator.

Now that you got the heat up to where its supposed to be, cover the back and top of the bator with one of those solar blankets, to stop cooler air hitting it.
No solar blanket? Use anything that will stop the cool air from hitting it. 
Duck tape is your friend here. 
Do NOT cover air holes of bator.

Yes it takes some babysitting it but I think its safer than candles IMO.

I should have also said to add an alarm clock to that list.
If you need a snooze or just want a reminder and already figured out how long you have before replacing bricks or water...then you are good to go.

May not be the best but if those chicks are important for you that they hatch and have no other source to heat it.....

As I said, this is what I do and have done many times thru out the years. I live in the land of power outages so this is 2nd nature to me. 

Those without a wood stove can maybe heat water, bricks on a propane heater/stove...?

Then next step if you get them to hatching, is to put in some sort of divider. This will keep the chicks away from those hot bricks and water jars until they are dry enough to move to a small brooder.

You will also need to keep bricks hot, but now wrapped in old towel or sheets so the chicks don't get burnt on them.

Chicks are tougher then one might think, if its cooler then what's said they take. 
Keeping them as warm as possible and NO drafts what so ever and they will do fine a ways from the wood stove.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Sanza said:


> I have seen it work so don't assume the hatching can't be done. The old timers knew how to do such things and I still have my mother (who's close to 90) around to still teach me a few of the old ways.


I have a rather old Ag book that shows an incubator made of "sheet metal" and powered by oil lamp...Just a thought for you.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

terri9630 said:


> I just got my girls. Both due in February. I'm hoping they will kill those little weedy trees. If they cant then I give up, they win.
> 
> View attachment 1262


The Katahdin Hair Sheep I have WOULD eat those small tress, plus chew the bark off of bigger trees...I think they might be an awesome dollar crash animal:run:


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

silverseeds said:


> Never said it cant be done. I said coturnix quail cant do it. Also said there are easier ways.
> 
> If martian chicks friend actually pulled off having them hatch their own, and indeed had coturnix rather then another species she pulled off something many tried and invested in doing but failed at. Including respected researchers in the field Ive talked to back when I researched them heavily.
> 
> ...


I agree whole heartedly...Is why I also ordered Buff Orpington bantams, to go with the Rhode Island Red bantams...Buffs are known for it!
I also think making chicken tractors on wheels will be of benefit, to add additional feed to the chickens(i suppose one could use such for any smaller fowl).
Geese are something I also own(White Chinese) and which fend very well for themselves...None of my critters are overly friendly, thus making it harder to steal such.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Has anyone thought about raising American Guinea Hogs, Kune kunes or Potbelly pigs for survival pork and lard?


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Has goat owners thought about saving old copper pennies, pipes, fixtures, for consumption by their goats to help them ward off parasites?


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

If you watch wwII farm from bbc on youtube, you will see that during the war, Britain encouraged the hunting and eating of wild pigeons to keep them from destroying crops.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hairsheep said:


> Has anyone thought about raising American Guinea Hogs, Kune kunes or Potbelly pigs for survival pork and lard?


Hogs are one of the *LEAST efficient* meat producers
It takes a lot of high calorie feed to create that fat


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Hogs are one of the *LEAST efficient* meat producers
> It takes a lot of high calorie feed to create that fat


Not so as hogs can eat stuff other critters can't or won't, like roadkill. Plus they can be ranged on acorns & other wild foods (if you are careful and can hide it).


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

Haven't read all the responses...the DE discussion made my eyes glaze over.

We keep chickens, will be getting rabbits very soon and are looking at getting a dairy cow (that our neighbor has already agreed to breed to one of his beef fellas when the time comes for no charge). As to the care...the chickens free range and consume very little feed, that feed is 26% protein so less is required to keep them full, healthy and happy. Chicken first aid kit looks an awful lot like our human one. We don't give them DE, wormers, antibiotics, etc. They get ACV with the mother in their water from day 1 (as do the dogs and cats)...no worms or parasites in the flock or the indoor animals.


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

One thing I havent seen mentioned is quail STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN!!! OMG.If you were thinking of putting some in your garage and raise them, think again. Its so flipping smelly I am thinking of getting rid of them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Its so flipping smelly I am thinking of getting rid of them


Use a DEEP (6+ inches) layer of pine shavings under the cages, and most of that odor will disappear
There is no odor if you keep it DRY


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Hogs are one of the *LEAST efficient* meat producers
> It takes a lot of high calorie feed to create that fat


Traditionally, in olden times, Pigs were allowed to fend for themselves in woods and fields, later to be herded up, for fall butchering...Such an animal may well serve someone well.
I have geese, and therefore will not require pigs for cooking oil, but it is an ideal for others with large woods.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

jessimeredith said:


> Haven't read all the responses...the DE discussion made my eyes glaze over.
> 
> We keep chickens, will be getting rabbits very soon and are looking at getting a dairy cow (that our neighbor has already agreed to breed to one of his beef fellas when the time comes for no charge). As to the care...the chickens free range and consume very little feed, that feed is 26% protein so less is required to keep them full, healthy and happy. Chicken first aid kit looks an awful lot like our human one. We don't give them DE, wormers, antibiotics, etc. They get ACV with the mother in their water from day 1 (as do the dogs and cats)...no worms or parasites in the flock or the indoor animals.


Good mention of Apple Cider Vinegar!
I had completely forgot about that.
I had always used it too...Tablespoon per 5 gallons of water.
Don't know if it actually gets rid of worms, but my chickens always seemed to lay better when on it.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Mid Tn Mama said:


> If you watch wwII farm from bbc on youtube, you will see that during the war, Britain encouraged the hunting and eating of wild pigeons to keep them from destroying crops.


I talked to a Dutch girl on the net, and she told me her father raised such during WW II for food for the family.


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Use a DEEP (6+ inches) layer of pine shavings under the cages, and most of that odor will disappear
> There is no odor if you keep it DRY


My cage system wouldn't allow for 6 inches of pine shavings.


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

Hairsheep said:


> Good mention of Apple Cider Vinegar!
> I had completely forgot about that.
> I had always used it too...Tablespoon per 5 gallons of water.
> Don't know if it actually gets rid of worms, but my chickens always seemed to lay better when on it.


I don't know about that either...I just know the flock is happy, the boxer's butt doesn't stink as bad (boxer farts are deadly...bio weapon all their own :runforhills and *I'M* feeling all around better since starting to take it myself. Not as rundown.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Has anyone thought of keeping geese?
They are good for meat, eggs, cooking grease, and down feathers for pillows and insulation.
They are quite hardy, and easy to raise.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Hairsheep said:


> Has anyone thought of keeping geese?
> They are good for meat, eggs, cooking grease, and down feathers for pillows and insulation.
> They are quite hardy, and easy to raise.


Goose is not a forgiving meat. If you go past medium it gets tough and takes forever to stew tender if you don't have a pressure cooker.


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