# Wife Beating



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I got my book "Life at the Bottom" The Worldview That Makes the Underclass"

One of the author's premises is that among the underclasses in England there is much man-on-woman violence and that women go thru a succession of such violent affairs. Children grow up thinking of this as normal and wife-beating becomes a way of life. 

Women became so accustomed to violence that they thought non-violent men were weaklings and actually chose violent men over the gentle males.

Many years ago an older man told me that fathers should not spank their daughters because the girls would grow up thinking that they were to be beaten by men. ---His premise matched that of the author of my book. 

I've seen a few posts here that led me to believe some of our members have experience with this. Any comments????


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

It sounds similar to what Paul Hegstrom says in his book, "Angry Men and the Women Who Love Them."


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Having had to deal with a "man" who used violence when he drank alcohol when we were married, I told present DH one ting on the subject:

You will hit me ONCE and it will be the last time!


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

IDK these are such complicated issues it's hard to know. I know a girl who was never spanked by her father or anyone and she grew up to be an absolute monster. Disrespectful, nasty, and belligerent. She self destructed in her early twenties. I always thought the lack of discipline was at least partially to blame.

There's been a wave of acceptance in 'nonviolence' in the last twenty five/thirty years. Cartoons like Tom and Jerry, Bugs Bunny, and Popeye are now considered wrong an bad for children. Parents have adopted no spanking policies, and spanking a kid in public can lead to trouble for the parent or even arrest. Traditionally violent sports like hockey and football have been softened and toned down.

So where has all this nonviolence lead us? Before this, we didnt have kids shooting up schools, murdering their classmates and teachers. Could this be connected? I think so. Kids' who do not learn about the natural realities of violence don't know how to deal with it. Kid's who do not learn consequences at home don't know how to accept consequences outside the home.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

I do not equate spanking as discipline to be the same as beating. Two completely different things. I spanked my boys, my grandson gets spanked, it is out of love and parental direction. Funny thing is they only got it a very few times, and the idea that i could and would was enough to keep them in check until good behaviour became habit.

Usually "the look" was all that was needed to keep em in line.

It was not a beating and i don't tolerate that sort of thing for any reason by anyone.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Putting your hands on a women or child is just wrong.

I never spanked my kids.... It's not natural 

I'm here to love and protect, not hurt or harm. I never even took away privileges either. The percentage of convicts returning to prison is high, so I figured that was also a waste. What I did do with my kids was communicate, that they knew right from wrong and made a bad decision. I'd tell them they let them self and others down and that they should make better choices next time. It worked well


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Now if your wife asks to be spanked, that's different


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The thrust of the chapter in this book was the relationship between adults, wife-beating as a way of life, not parent-child spanking. My comment concerning spanking daughters was merely a recollection of what the old Indian man said about it. 

Again, violence against women is presented as prevalent in the English underclass. Given the deterioration of our own society in the last fifty years, how much of that happens here in our own country?


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

There is a huge difference between spanking a child and abuse. I have no respect for anyone who thinks it is OK to either physically or mentally abuse another person. Man or woman, adult or child.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> The thrust of the chapter in this book was the relationship between adults, wife-beating as a way of life, not parent-child spanking. My comment concerning spanking daughters was merely a recollection of what the old Indian man said about it.
> 
> Again, violence against women is presented as prevalent in the English underclass. Given the deterioration of our own society in the last fifty years, how much of that happens here in our own country?



You only have to beat them a couple times, after that you only have to give them a look.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I don't ever recall spanking my son. never ever had to. he was always such a good boy. still is and very close to me. never gave me a moments trouble in his life. I know several women who had beaters for husbands. and went on to have others who were also beaters. might be something to it. I'd be like Ardie. only once. I had a wonderful father though. very gentle . wouldn't think of slapping us although my sis and I most likely needed it at times. ~Georgia


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

When I was a girl MOST kids got spanked, male or female, by whatever parent thought it needed to be done. 

Women who get beaten are still in the minority, even though most women of my generation got spanked.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

This is a very interesting book. The fellow goes on to talk about criminals who see themselves as victims, blaming society for their faults. 

He also says that the elites of his society foster that belief, and that there is a bureaucracy now that has a vested interest in preserving the underclass, much as we have a welfare bureaucracy that encourages the continuation of dependency.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Terri said:


> Women who get beaten are still in the minority, even though most women of my generation got spanked.



I don't think there are any accurate statistics on domestic abuse simply because some are controlled to the point where it's difficult for them to report it, some are too embarrassed to speak out and there are others who stretch the truth and claim abuse to gain public sympathy or sway courts.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

oneraddad said:


> I never spanked my kids.... It's not natural
> 
> l


Oh...no, thats entirely false. As a farmer I see almost every animal in nature using physical correction to guide their young. Violence is very natural, like it or not it pretty much makes the world go 'round. Pretending it doesn't exist or raising your children to believe it doesn't is very harmful to their development. Consciously not spanking is very unnatural and the results will be unnatural development.

Controlled and properly used, spanking is one of the greatest tools a parent can use to help raise a well adjusted child.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I cannot speak with any special knowledge about children, but I too see that animals use controlled violence to teach their young. 

I suppose everyone here has read of the violent young elephants in Africa who were taught to behave when conservationists brought in some older, larger male elephants. 

Still, the discussion was supposed to be about violence between men and women, supposedly domestic incidents. My writer claims that women become habituated to it and will not pair with more gentle men.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Yes Oxankle, didnt mean to veer off topic. My original comment was in regard to the part about the man who didnt believe in fathers spanking girls. I dont agree with it. Obviously this has little to do with wife beating. Different subject, though the link was made in your OP.

The other part of your post that strikes me is that the women in this area choose men who beat them, and consider men who do not hit them to be effeminate. So, if they feel that way and are consciously choosing to be hit then are they truly victims and if so what can be done about it?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> My writer claims that women become habituated to it and will not pair with more gentle men.


Some women, not all women. Judging from what I have seen.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Twobottom said:


> Oh...no, thats entirely false. As a farmer I see almost every animal in nature using physical correction to guide their young. Violence is very natural, like it or not it pretty much makes the world go 'round. Pretending it doesn't exist or raising your children to believe it doesn't is very harmful to their development. Consciously not spanking is very unnatural and the results will be unnatural development.
> 
> Controlled and properly used, spanking is one of the greatest tools a parent can use to help raise a well adjusted child.



I strongly disagree, and I spend hours (like 10-12) everyday watching wildlife. They protect their young and are aggressive to anything that threatens them.

Your job is to nurture and protect.

Besides, kids are just little people. If you're gonna smack them, you might as be allowed to smack adults when they do stuff you don't agree with also.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Oxankle said:


> I got my book "Life at the Bottom" The Worldview That Makes the Underclass"
> 
> One of the author's premises is that among the underclasses in England there is much man-on-woman violence and that women go thru a succession of such violent affairs. Children grow up thinking of this as normal and wife-beating becomes a way of life.
> 
> Women became so accustomed to violence that they thought non-violent men were weaklings and actually chose violent men over the gentle males.


In that book, is he talking about present-day women, or is he talking about women prior to early 20th century when women didn't have any say in the matter? Back then it was considered by all society to be a woman's lot in life to be beaten by her husband. A man who did not beat his wife was considered a weakling and looked down upon not only by women but by all of his male contemporaries as well.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Fennick: The book was published in 2001, so it appears to refer to recent times. By the way, wife-beating was never an accepted practice in decent society. Never within my memory was it considered a thing honorable men did. 

The author is talking about life at the bottom of the gene pool, what we would call the bottom of our welfare pool today. What he writes is very much what we read of our close-to-criminal class.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

It used to be that if you got a divorce you had failed. Women stayed and stay still because of the holier than thou attitude. And it can be so darn damaging. There is something about someone thinking so little of you as to treat you bad that shakes your confidence to the core. And if you leave you "didn't try hard enough" for most of society.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Good thing the author is able to perch so high above that nasty gene pool. The air up there must be so much more delightful and rarefied!


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Oxankle said:


> Fennick: The book was published in 2001, so it appears to refer to recent times. By the way, wife-beating was never an accepted practice in decent society. Never within my memory was it considered a thing honorable men did.
> 
> The author is talking about life at the bottom of the gene pool, what we would call the bottom of our welfare pool today. What he writes is very much what we read of our close-to-criminal class.


This is a sensitive topic for all women because it happens to women in all classes and all walks of life. I think the author is limiting himself if he's focusing on 'bottom dwellers'. Wife beating and other domestic violence happens in all strata of society including so-called 'decent' society. You just may not hear about it so much in the upper echelons because those people have the money and means to cover it up. If a wife in the upper classes has enough money and legal resources of her own she might be able to afford to escape from the situation. However, women in middle and lower classes generally have a more difficult time extracting themselves from what is a vicious cycle of abuse because they don't have the financial resources and they are dependent on their abusive husbands for support of themselves and their children.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I am an expert on this subject, so I will keep my wisdom to myself.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

oneraddad said:


> I strongly disagree, and I spend hours (like 10-12) everyday watching wildlife. They protect their young and are aggressive to anything that threatens them.
> 
> Your job is to nurture and protect.
> 
> Besides, kids are just little people. If you're gonna smack them, you might as be allowed to smack adults when they do stuff you don't agree with also.


"Smacking" and spanking are two very different things. Not too many animals that I see that don't peck, nip, swat, or push their young in order to guide them or let them know that their behavior is unacceptable. This does not preclude protecting and nurturing. IMO you are failing to protect, nurture, and prepare your children without using proper physical correction. This is especially true in the very young.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> I cannot speak with any special knowledge about children, but I too see that animals use controlled violence to teach their young.
> 
> I suppose everyone here has read of the violent young elephants in Africa who were taught to behave when conservationists brought in some older, larger male elephants.
> 
> Still, the discussion was supposed to be about violence between men and women, supposedly domestic incidents. My writer claims that women become habituated to it and will not pair with more gentle men.


The writer is like one of the three blind men describing an elephant after touching only one part. A more extensive book is _The Fragile Bond_ by Augustus Napier. It's paricularly enlightening in the case studies from his practice including his own family.

Many of the issues in a family can be traced back for generations. It's one of those you can't get there from here situations. Unless you look back far enough and deeply enough, making realistic progress is beyond an uphill struggle. I'm not sure if Napier was a pioneer in his approach. For its time I suspect it was unconventional. 

He had a categorization that seemed to cover everything. The case studies were what made the book useful. 

I highly recommend the book. There's often more to dysfunctional families than violence.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Light Rain: The author is discussing a way of life at the bottom of the social order, the poorest of the poor. He contends that it is their way of thinking that keeps them poor---Here in the US, at least until the welfare state, no one expected to remain poor. 

Wife beating in only one of the many destructive social behaviors that he discusses, all of which lead to impoverishment. 

Think about it; an educated man, physician and psychiatrist who began his practice in the poorest part of Africa, then thrust into the slums of a great city in England. There he finds far more self-destructive behavior than in Africa. 

You too would find yourself thinking that these people were bottom feeders. 

As for wife-beating, from everything I've read there are brutes in all walks of life, but we do not expect to find it prevalent in better circles. Certainly a woman does not consider a lover a wimp if he does not beat her.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> Oh...no, thats entirely false. As a farmer I see almost every animal in nature using physical correction to guide their young. Violence is very natural, like it or not it pretty much makes the world go 'round. Pretending it doesn't exist or raising your children to believe it doesn't is very harmful to their development. Consciously not spanking is very unnatural and the results will be unnatural development.
> 
> Controlled and properly used, spanking is one of the greatest tools a parent can use to help raise a well adjusted child.


I don't know where to start. There are so many aspects of this post that are slightly askew, that it seems that it could be used as a primer for Poly Sci students learning tactics on how to slip in a political policy change.

Firstly, rarely, is anything _entirely_ false. 

Second, I have to question the veracity of this statement, "As a farmer I see almost every animal in nature using physical correction to guide their young." Just how many animals in nature do you actually observe in depth for extended periods of time? Because that is what is required to make any kind of blanket statement similar to yours. Given that, as a farmer on a farm that most certainly doesn't encompass _all_ of nature, there are many species you don't get the priviledge to observe. Moreover, your time is valuable and you wear many hats. So essentially, your time with any single animal or group is limited, have you considered that the _best_ of those animals has maybe -emphasis on maybe- the max intelligence level of a 3 to 5 yr old human? That being said, would you think it acceptable for a 3 to 5 year old human with a decidedly undeveloped level of maturity, and comparatively equipped in their reasoning abilities to those observed animals, to make decisions on discipline? Because that's the conclusion your flawed analogy leads to. Animals in nature do the best they can with what they've got mentally. Don't equate their behavior as mature specimens of their species with that of mature humans.

Third. Of course violence is natural. But notwyse's post comes into play here. _"There is a huge difference between spanking a child and abuse. I have no respect for anyone who thinks it is OK to either physically or mentally abuse another person. Man or woman, adult or child."_

Now I'm pretty sure you're not saying that, as reasoning, self aware animals themselves, humans should disregard the inherent abilities that put them in a position to out think those _other_ animals whose behavior you cite as your acceptance of violence in _human_ society. Displaying a preference in favor of not using violence as a behavioral learning tool does not automatically assume one believes that violence, in terms of humanity, does not exist. Notwithstanding the extremes of belief and behavior, I would think the view of many is much like this quote from Katharine Hepburn's character in Rooster Cogburn, &#8220;I do not fear a skunk. I simply do not care for its odor.&#8221; 

It would seem to me that teaching about the existence of violence while nurturing a healthy dislike for violence as a preferred answer to one's problems is quite a good way to teach a child to behave.

Lastly, _"Consciously not spanking is very unnatural and the results will be unnatural development."_ *O...M...G...!* It just blows me away that in a forum like HT, where individuality is a much desired and fiercely protected aspect of the human condition, that one who probably agrees with that self same individuality can actually utter a statement like this. There are over 7-- that's 7 billion-- people on this planet. This may get deleted, but to make a statement like that, in light of the myriad different cultures and societal mores found across our world is simply narrow minded, not to mention, unqualified.

_"Controlled and properly used, spanking is one of the greatest tools a parent can use to help raise a well adjusted child."_

This is the only part of your post I can even partially agree with. But, by the very fact that you make it, you admit that there are times when it is detrimental to the child rearing process. And that would seem to indicate that, as a tool for parenting, it is no better or worse than any of the other tools we use. Kind of like a gun in the hand of an honest man, or a criminal. So, given its reduced status as an important parenting tool, the chance of a child growing up well adjusted, or not, most certainly doesn't hinge on whether they were whooped regular.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Darren; 

Unless you've read the book, don't categorize it so. Wife-beating is simply one of the subjects he writes about. It is not a book about marriage, but about the way of life that impoverishes the underclass. For example there is a chapter "We Don't Want No Education", and another "Uncouth Chic".

Does that sound like something out of one of our ghettos? Remember when all the news was about the black children who were called "Toms" if they wanted a real education?. Remember Ebonics? Did you know that there are teachers in our schools who cannot spell simple English words? 

How about the degeneration of our television? There are topics discussed in prime time that are unsuitable for childrren. Fornication, infidelity, perversion are no longer adult topics.


In this case the writer, a successful physician from a solid family, has been exposed for some years, thru his work, to those who have failed in life. From his observations he offers some conclusions, no more.


When we live in cities we tend to find our own kind; the wealthy live near the wealthy, middle class near middle class, the poor near the poor. Here in the US, in the country, an educated and successful family may have welfare neighbors---and do in this community. They see the successes and the failures, the way the failures live and why they fail. My own observations cause me to agree with much of what this man writes. Had I seen as much I might agree with all of it.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I grew up being spanked. I had a little brother that generally tempted me beyond my ability to resist, so I got spanked a lot! There wasn't ever any domestic violence that I was exposed to.

When I was a teenager a boyfriend decided he wanted to hit me. He did get in one really good sucker punch. It simply didn't occur to me that I might get hit. Took me a few minutes to get over being stunned. 

By the time the police got there I'd managed to get my hands on a frying pan and worked that no good so and so over pretty good. He was laying on the couch moaning. I was standing over him with the frying pan with sparks practically sizzling off of me. They took one look at the situation. Asked me what happened and I told them that he hit me. They hauled him off to have him patched up and then took him to jail. 

I've also heard of an old gal that her husband worked her over one time too many. She waited until he was drunk. Rolled him up in the bed sheets and proceeded to break some ribs. My understanding is he decided he didn't want to hit her any more. 

Some folks need more object lessons than others.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Proverbs 13:24 

This has been translated a thousand ways, but all translations seem to mention a peach switch. 

If we consider the big book no more than the accumulated opinion of several thousand years it is still impressive. I tend to think that the old ones were at least as wise as we.

I suppose discipline can take many forms, but most of us would agree that children must learn the rules of society, and the consequences of misbehavior, if they are to prosper as adults.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I just got a phone from my Son, he's gonna become a Dad. 

I can't wait to tell him I got it wrong and he needs to use violence to discipline his first born.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Again, violence against women is presented as prevalent in the English underclass. Given the deterioration of our own society in the last fifty years, how much of that happens here in our own country?


Actually, I've read that domestic violence has declined in the U.S. in recent decades, probably because the legal system has started treating it as a crime, and not just a "family matter" -- for instance, the passage of laws that mandate arrest if the victim has visible injuries. 

I grew up watching my father beat my mother (or try to -- was not a large man, and she was not about to take such abuse lying down, LOL. In truth, they were pretty equally matched). Growing up, I was sometimes spanked calmly and rationally, and sometimes I'd infuriate them to the point where they'd simply start whaling on me. I think that's a dangerous dynamic for a child, because they learn they're really in control, not the parent. There was a delicious sense of power in knowing that I could make them blow their tops. It was worth enduring a beating to watch them go off the rails that way. 

My first husband beat me, usually when we got into fights when we were both drunk, as did the man I lived with after I left him, whom I chose in part because I thought he was tough enough to protect me when my husband came looking for me. The second fellow nearly choked me to death on two occasions, which kinda made me lose my taste for violent relationships. I've steered clear of those types ever since ... whew! :teehee:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'll add to the above that my father's parents were Polish immigrants, and in that culture, wife-beatings isn't just accepted, it's considered necessary. In the Old Country, they have a saying that if you fail to beat your wife, it rots her liver. 

I was told that my father beat up my mother on their wedding night, to teach her her proper place. She was 17 and most likely a virgin ... I can only imagine how well THAT went over! My father's father routinely beat my grandmother, and I'm told that my uncles all abused their wives. This was just the way things were done, back in the day. 

We've come a long way, baby!!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Darren;
> 
> Unless you've read the book, don't categorize it so. Wife-beating is simply one of the subjects he writes about. It is not a book about marriage, but about the way of life that impoverishes the underclass. For example there is a chapter "We Don't Want No Education", and another "Uncouth Chic".
> 
> ...


Thanks for fleshing the book out. I'll read it.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> I strongly disagree, and I spend hours (like 10-12) everyday watching wildlife. They protect their young and are aggressive to anything that threatens them.
> 
> Your job is to nurture and protect.
> 
> Besides, kids are just little people. If you're gonna smack them, you might as be allowed to smack adults when they do stuff you don't agree with also.


Horses frequently and violently correct ill behavior by a kick, a bite or a shove. It is part of herd dynamics and teaching young horses their place. I have had mares that will nip a youngster for rearing up and striking out at her, have seen old mares correct an insubordinate young stallion by a well placed kick. It happens most frequently in those societies that value the dynamics of social interaction and maintaining ORDER in the herd.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I got an idea.... you raise your family like horses and I'll raise mine without inflecting pain.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I did not compare raising human children to raising horses. That was your interpretation of my response to your statement that wildlife protects their young. I offered a view that not only do animals protect but they also discipline and maintain a social structure within their societies. I have raised three children to adulthood. None are in jail, all are contributing members of society. Perhaps I did learn something from horses -protect, instruct and discipline go a long way to turning out well rounded, productive members of society. Ymmv.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

My folks were pretty rough on me and bro. Didn't kill either one of us. I was pretty rough on mine.Part of that's due to the army training I got. Parts due to the raising up I got. I wish now that I had done things different, But I couldn't ber happier with the end result.

All 3 turned out to be good upstanding citizens.


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## VonDenWald (Oct 21, 2012)

I was both spanked and abused in my childhood by a step mother who was jealous of my father's work schedule. My abuse included starvation and long term confinement with major spits of damaging physical abuse. Starvation to the point of eating garbage for survival. Dehydration to the point of kidney problems and receiving stitches for drinking from a toilet. I still have health problems beyond imagination and feel I would not had not I been abused. I have been married for 22 years, 17 on paper. We got into one physical fight. My husband found out how serious I was when I said no one will ever lay a hand on me again. I was disciplined by my father and have respect for him just as I have respect for my husband.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

My first wife would go all bat poop crazy, it's not just women that get smacked.


Now stop it right now.... I did not deserve it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

oneraddad said:


> My first wife would go all bat poop crazy, it's not just women that get smacked.
> 
> 
> Now stop it right now.... I did not deserve it.



Victims of domestic violence is not restricted to women and children. Men tend to avoid speaking out for fear of being mocked.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

My kids are smart enough to understand natural consequences. I have never found the need to raise a hand to any child. As long as I step back and allow them to suffer the consequence they make better choices the next time.
I want my kids to think for themselves. I want them to rationalize as individuals, not react to fear as part of the herd.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

My dad threatened to get out his belt many times and that was usually the end of it. He said he only ever had to spank my sister and I once. We don't even remember it. We just knew we did not want him to get his belt out. That did far less damage, if any, than the verbal abuse I suffered from my stepfather and the ostracizing and bullying by my peers. I did start out with a verbally abusive bf but I was never worried or a victim of any kind. It was just annoying that you couldn't hold a conversation with him or that I had to sit around letting him yell until he realized I was not going to do what he said. He did eventually turn physically abusive and I put him head first in to the wall. 8 more years of martial arts later and really there is nothing that phases me and nothing I put up with. My husband is quite easy going, nonaggressive almost to a fault (won't stand up for himself at work), and would never imagine hitting a woman unless there was an absolute need for self defense. He does tend to flare off in to tantrums when a situation turns bad rather than thinking of solutions which is my first instinct. It can be a little frustrating sometimes but it's not directed at me.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Akane: Did you ever know why you were ostracized and bullied by your peers? 
A strong woman is good; a dominatrix only so-so. Certainly being bullied is a great incentive to learn the martial arts. From experience we learn that bullies bleed as quickly as we do, and generally do not wish to bleed twice. 

The author of my book says nothing about women beating their husbands; he only saw the victims of wife-beating episodes. I suppose that women who were strong enough to resist never needed his services.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2014)

If your wife is really good at chess, she'll beat you as often as you beat her. Maybe more. I can't believe there are this many posts about beating your wife at chess. Wait, maybe you guys are talking about poker? Let me go back and actually read the thread. I'd hate to be the only person at HT who ever posted without knowing the topic under discussion.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Poker is also different, I always poked my wife


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2014)

I so dislike being painted with a broad brush by someone who "observed"...we who grew up in REAL poverty are not clones of one another ...we are not "things" to be observed objectively and found to be "lacking"...If I were allowed to by the forum, I would have punctuated the former with a series of very vulgar expletives...

Yes. I watched my father beat my mother senseless...and when he'd finished, he'd grab my brother and I and do the same. He should have gone to prison for what he did..beatings were the least of it. 

Sorry to disappoint the author of the book as well as Ox..I never developed a taste for being abused...if a man had ever, EVER hit me as an adult, it would have been his last action on earth...all but one of my friends in OUR slum went on to either graduate from college or be proficient in a skilled trade..the one who didn't make it ran numbers for the mob and tried to skim some for himself..they found him in an empty cage in Franklin Park zoo..

NONE of my similarly impoverished friends' parents were violent..but hey...that wouldn't sell any books would it?


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

Poor doesn't make stupid...or violent. Neither does being a particular race make you superior or inferior. You make you.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lesley; In the time of which you speak families expected their children to succeed, to "do better" than their parents. Yes, there were undoubtedly brutes, though I knew of none. The newspapers reported intra-family killings, and there were drunken husbands. 

The author is speaking of what he saw, and what he saw is about what we see today.
One of his remarks is "The habits of the lower classes percolate upward". True--once we saw jail house tattoos only on thugs; now every thoughtless young woman thinks she must have a tattoo or a dozen. "L O V E" on the digits of one hand, and "H A T E" on the digits of the other do not impress one with the intellect of the bearer.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> Lesley; In the time of which you speak families expected their children to succeed, to "do better" than their parents. Yes, there were undoubtedly brutes, though I knew of none. The newspapers reported intra-family killings, and there were drunken husbands.
> 
> The author is speaking of what he saw, and what he saw is about what we see today.
> One of his remarks is "The habits of the lower classes percolate upward". True--once we saw jail house tattoos only on thugs; now every thoughtless young woman thinks she must have a tattoo or a dozen. "L O V E" on the digits of one hand, and "H A T E" on the digits of the other do not impress one with the intellect of the bearer.


and in the 1930's young women horrified their parents by bobbing their hair, rouging their knees and saying "23 skidoo kid"...pick a decade..see how young people of ALL social classes act out against the norm..perhaps I shall write a book...


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)




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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

Ox, the man had a premise who wished to support of course he's going to make facts support his view. My father's mother grew up dirt poor in rural West Virginia, there were nine kids and the parents were share croppers, she didn't own her own pair of shoes until the war when she moved to Maryland to work to send money home to support the younger ones. There is no history of domestic violence on that side of the family, never has been. My mom's dad was pretty well middle class and he hit my grandmother one time, a skillet solved that problem. 

Now, my children's other grandmother grew up very well to do and her mother got beat nightly until she finally gathered the resources to leave. My ex mother in law was sent through a window once, luckily her mother had went through it first. My ex father in law never lifted a finger to his wife, or his kids, neither did his father but my ex sure did. Actually, he and his current wife still go round and round at times. It isn't just social strata. 

After my grandmother was divorced then widowed the next man she was involved with was a widower who was a Serbian immigrant who had worked with my father. My father introduced the two of them because the older gentleman insisted he was a good husband, he only beat his wife a little bit. My one step grandfather is an Italian immigrant and he took brought over the belief that beating his wife was a good thing, all of his sons picked up on it. Thankfully my step father grew out of it when my brother got big enough to have a talk with him.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Hmm... I never spanked or beat my children, or my wife, yet they respect me, each other and other people and animals. Violence is not necessary to teach respect. Just teach respect, responsibility and appreciation - they're the first three 'R's.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lesley; When you write your book don't leave out the part about the kids on dope, the unwed mothers who leech off the public, the men who are no better than libertines and utterly devoid of responsibility. Don't leave out the part about three generations on welfare, high school "graduates" who cannot read or write a sentence in their native tongue. Don't leave out the part about sixty seven people getting shot in a day in Chicago, a city where guns are banned, while the entire state of Minnesota, half a million hunters who carry arms regularly, did not have so many shootings in a year.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

oneraddad said:


> Poker is also different, I always poked my wife


I bet you pounded her too....LOL :bash:


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

T'nZ'sMom; nothing to support, just reporting what he saw. His premise is that those habits and that way of life keep those people from getting ahead. Wife-beating and the disdain for education are only parts of the report. Disrespect for law and property figure in. I'll cite other factors as we go along.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> Lesley; When you write your book don't leave out the part about the kids on dope, the unwed mothers who leech off the public, the men who are no better than libertines and utterly devoid of responsibility. Don't leave out the part about three generations on welfare, high school "graduates" who cannot read or write a sentence in their native tongue. Don't leave out the part about sixty seven people getting shot in a day in Chicago, a city where guns are banned, while the entire state of Minnesota, half a million hunters who carry arms regularly, did not have so many shootings in a year.


because they are poor????????????????????????????????????????????? No..because of CHOICES individuals make ....the people who make the good choices do not make the news!!!!!


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I agree with this statement^^^^
He didnt observe eveyone's childhood nor their outcome in life.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Ox, I know you want to so very much to believe that current society is going to heck in a gasoline soaked handbasket. The fact of the matter is, there is nothing new under the sun. Physical, domestic abuse knows no societal boundary. Just because you didn't see it or hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. All the bad stuff in society doesn't "percolate" up from the dregs. That is an overly simplistic and extremely narrow minded view.

As for the tattoos, same thing applies. Just because you didn't see them in your circles doesn't mean they weren't there. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/tattoo-history_n_4957215.html

I'm not really sure what you are looking for with this thread. IMHO, I think you want others to agree with you about how horrible "poor" folks are. I think the reasons for today's societal problems are as varied as the people who experience them.

I'll leave you to your poor bashing. This whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Not bashing anyone; I simply report what the man says. By the way, no one here is "poor". All of you have TV, indoor plumbing, computers and enough to eat. I doubt that more than a dozen of us recall the days when "relief" was shameful and people really did not have enough to eat even though they worked their tails off. 

True enough that I am disgusted with much that I see. Women who consider it perfectly acceptable to bear children and then expect the taxpayer to support them. Men who use women as concubines and leave when it is time to pay the bills for the children they sire. Drug addicts and drunks who cry that they have a "disease" and expect the public to pity them. People who twist an ankle and cry "disabled" and expect a government check for the rest of their lives--pure lazy greed in too many cases---I've investigated enough of them to know how many are faked.

No, I'm not going to sit and cry for the poor--this country offers free education, the chance to make something of one's self no matter how poor the beginning. Those who waste their opportunity get little sympathy from me. Charity sometimes, but damned little sympathy.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

But ox...there is so much good too.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

The best thing that happened to me was being brought up poor, It help me make a concious decision to do the complete opposite of what I was taught and how I was raised.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I doubt, if people in there 30s/40s are going to believe it, but I can remember
NEVER seeing a tat on a woman
Seeing tats on WW2 vets occasionally. Never saw one on a WW 1 vet
Women hung around bars, trying to find men interested in them, and had FEW kids, if any, cause there was no DHS for them to hang around with a gang of kids.
Good women picked the bars they hung around in, and caused no trouble, or very little of it, and the bar owner kinda watched out for them while they were in there. The sleezs hung around any bar that would let them in, and nice, family bars wouldn't let them in once they caused trouble.

The above, my dad told me about several times, usually once a year when I would go up there to spend a week with him,


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> no one here is "poor". All of you have TV, indoor plumbing, computers and enough to eat. I doubt that more than a dozen of us recall the days when "relief" was shameful and people really did not have enough to eat even though they worked their tails off.


Don't assume so much. 



Oxankle said:


> I'm not going to sit and cry for the poor--this country offers free education, the chance to make something of one's self no matter how poor the beginning. Those who waste their opportunity get little sympathy from me. Charity sometimes, but damned little sympathy.


Good for you. I pretty much agree. But don't assume too much. You jumped right off the edge there.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Oxankle said:


> By the way, no one here is "poor". All of you have TV, indoor plumbing, computers and enough to eat.


Actually, I do not have 2 of the 4 things you listed


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

http://www.npr.org/2014/05/07/309734380/the-changing-picture-of-poverty-hard-work-is-just-not-enough

Seriously. I am one of the millions of people working full time (40 hrs/week) who can barely make ends meet. I make a decent hourly wage but that's all it is. No benefits, I work strictly for a paycheck. On top of that, I spend $50/wk on gas just to get to work and back every week. We don't have cable or satellite tv. I have a Straight talk phone that I pay $45/mo for to be able to keep in contact with my kids and work. Our one extravagance is the internet. I do get child support for my children...whenever his work decides to send the checks, that is. I get paid every two weeks and things can get pretty hairy during that second week if I don't get a check. Yeah, we have a flat screen tv that is 3 years old. The kids have a small one in their room to play XBox on...an xbox I bought off of a local yard sale site at income tax refund time. The games they have were gifts for birthdays from their grown siblings. Last Wednesday, the fuel pump went out on my truck on my way to work. That was a day missed without pay on top of the $300+ bill to fix my truck. I thank God that I have a friend who is a mechanic who can float the bill at least until I get paid at the end of this week. That's going to leave precious little money to buy groceries and gas money for the next two weeks. My other paycheck is strictly for rent and electricity....it is also the check that I am going to be missing a day. A day that I really couldn't afford to miss. I am now looking at having to talk to my landlord about not having all the rent. Something I have never done and am not looking forward too. There is scarce opportunity for overtime in my field here. The company frowns upon it and very rarely give any out. I am torn between needing to spend time with my kids and looking for a second job just to keep us above water. I also just printed out a food stamp application because even though I don't want the hassle, I want my kids to go hungry even less. Yes, I am single. No, I don't date. There are no men in and out of our lives. We live quietly and as simply as possible. 

There is no free education. BTDT got the student loans to prove it. Nothing is free.

Please don't preach at me about what it is to be poor. I'm living it and you are not. And, for the record, you can keep your sympathy and your charity, I don't want it. A little less judgement would be nice though.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Been there, done that. I started out delivering sale circulars for a grocery, went on to shovel shrimp in a packing house, deckhand on an oyster boat, orderly in a psychiatric hospital, oil field roustabout, drilling rig floor hand, always a step up.

We are all the product of the choices we made. I don't have cable or satellite either, and once upon a time I did not have indoor plumbing. I did not have a flat screen TV until last year, and there is one TV in the house. (No children left at home) Choices.

I have repaired my automobile beside the road 160 miles from home and I went to my first permanent job, in a strange town 300 miles from anyone I knew, with $36 in my pocket. I have gone without the last meal of the weekend waiting for a pay check, and in our first apartment my wife and I had neither TV or a/c. 

My children are ten years younger than those of my peers because I waited to marry until I could afford to support a wife. You do not need to tell me what being poor is--I've been there and did not like it. We made choices that improved our lot. 

No, college education is not free, but a good HS education is, and the man who repairs my A/C system lives well. So does the plumber. My friend down the road started life as a carpenter, went on to become a steelworker, bought five acres and built a house, rented land and bought some cows, worked his behind off and now owns several hundred acres of land, combines, tractors, etc, etc, and enough cows to buy and sell me. 

This is the land of opportunity for a poor kid from a big family. The six remaining of my 9 brothers and sisters, the children of an auto mechanic and a housewife, all have prospered---I, the oldest, am probably the least successful of them all. Not one of us was given or loaned anything, unless you count my GI bill as a gift.

Forgive me if I find it hard to believe that poverty is inescapable. If I did it so can most others with ordinary intelligence.
I should add here that sometimes we get so far along that the best choice is to soldier on and point our children upward. My folks were caught in the depression, starved off the farm with children already in the family. They gave me my direction. They prospered, but their children and grandchildren enjoy far more of life's advantages.
Ox


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

Yes, yes, yes, and sometimes you just have an unlucky day, or the fate of the draw that changes your life in an instant for many years. An injury, a cheating spouse, a parent or child dying slowly from a disease, it's not just about escaping, it's about keeping up. Simple, shallow answers are just that.... simple and shallow.

Great thing to be living the dream, just remember to stay humble and greatfull. For it can be taken much, much faster from you than it took you to gain it.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

Ticks me off when I hear a man tell a woman with kids how easy it is to improve their lives. Just saying.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

rkintn said:


> http://www.npr.org/2014/05/07/309734380/the-changing-picture-of-poverty-hard-work-is-just-not-enough
> 
> Seriously. I am one of the millions of people working full time (40 hrs/week) who can barely make ends meet. I make a decent hourly wage but that's all it is. No benefits, I work strictly for a paycheck. On top of that, I spend $50/wk on gas just to get to work and back every week. We don't have cable or satellite tv. I have a Straight talk phone that I pay $45/mo for to be able to keep in contact with my kids and work. Our one extravagance is the internet. I do get child support for my children...whenever his work decides to send the checks, that is. I get paid every two weeks and things can get pretty hairy during that second week if I don't get a check. Yeah, we have a flat screen tv that is 3 years old. The kids have a small one in their room to play XBox on...an xbox I bought off of a local yard sale site at income tax refund time. The games they have were gifts for birthdays from their grown siblings. Last Wednesday, the fuel pump went out on my truck on my way to work. That was a day missed without pay on top of the $300+ bill to fix my truck. I thank God that I have a friend who is a mechanic who can float the bill at least until I get paid at the end of this week. That's going to leave precious little money to buy groceries and gas money for the next two weeks. My other paycheck is strictly for rent and electricity....it is also the check that I am going to be missing a day. A day that I really couldn't afford to miss. I am now looking at having to talk to my landlord about not having all the rent. Something I have never done and am not looking forward too. There is scarce opportunity for overtime in my field here. The company frowns upon it and very rarely give any out. I am torn between needing to spend time with my kids and looking for a second job just to keep us above water. I also just printed out a food stamp application because even though I don't want the hassle, I want my kids to go hungry even less. Yes, I am single. No, I don't date. There are no men in and out of our lives. We live quietly and as simply as possible.
> 
> ...


I don't know how you do it all..........you are one of my heroes!!


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> Been there, done that. I started out delivering sale circulars for a grocery, went on to shovel shrimp in a packing house, deckhand on an oyster boat, orderly in a psychiatric hospital, oil field roustabout, drilling rig floor hand, always a step up.
> 
> We are all the product of the choices we made. I don't have cable or satellite either, and once upon a time I did not have indoor plumbing. I did not have a flat screen TV until last year, and there is one TV in the house. (No children left at home) Choices.
> 
> ...


Congratulations, Ox!!!

The only thing missing today is the availability of 'better paying' jobs that made it easier to improve one's financial lot in life. :shrug:


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

billooo2 said:


> The only thing missing today is the availability of 'better paying' jobs that made it easier to improve one's financial lot in life.


Complaining about it won't solve it. If you don't like the available jobs then create your own.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

highlands said:


> Complaining about it won't solve it. If you don't like the available jobs then create your own.


Who said that I was complaining????........just an observation, :shrug:


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

billooo2 said:


> I don't know how you do it all..........you are one of my heroes!!



Thank you but I'm no hero. I do what has to be done and more times than not, that's all there is time for. I keep plugging along because I have hope that things WILL get better


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I am not unaware of the chances of fate--sickness, accident, infidelity. These are the purposes of our social safety nets. They are the reasons we pay taxes and contribute to churches and charities. The kid who eats a free meal at school, the woman who gets WIC benefits and a "ration card". the man who draws disability because a radio tower collapsed under him are all part of the social contract. 

Nevertheless, our choices largely determine our outcomes. Disasters happen, setbacks are inevitable, but we go forward and try to make better choices as we go.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

I do not know a single person who chooses to be poor. I know many who don't have ENOUGH assistance to make a leap up. Colorado did an interesting experiment years ago where they took some women on public assistance and increased the assistance to include childcare and college. I don't remember all the details except it was a huge success. I remember because at least some became nurses.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

The rich have all the gold and make all the rules, it's been that way forever. They have it all set up to their advantage and just how they want it now.... I'm more concerned with wall street than the poor family that had no roll model getting a little free cheese and milk.


It's the guys in the middle that dream of bettering them self from the generation before that are getting hosed.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

notwyse said:


> I do not know a single person who chooses to be poor. I know many who don't have ENOUGH assistance to make a leap up. Colorado did an interesting experiment years ago where they took some women on public assistance and increased the assistance to include childcare and college. I don't remember all the details except it was a huge success. I remember because at least some became nurses.


Many years ago........I worked at a hospital in Maine. Several of my co-workers were women who had previously been on welfare. I don't know the details, but a couple of hospitals worked with a local community college......and national accrediting bodies....and developed a program specifically to assist women to move off of welfare to professions. It worked remarkably well in that setting. I have often wondered why more programs like that were not developed. :shrug:


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

rkintn said:


> Thank you but I'm no hero. I do what has to be done and more times than not, that's all there is time for. I keep plugging along because I have hope that things WILL get better


Been there. I can GUARANTEE, it DOES get better!

Mon


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Oxankle, I do agree that the choices we make have a direct bearing on our future. Along with the choices others make and random happenings. I think it might be good to remember that the folks that left England to come to America, did so for more reasons that religious liberty. For the poor that were a part of the feudal system and indentured servitude it gave hope of new start and potential for self advancement. 

Now that the USA has been an entity for over 200 years I wonder if we aren't starting to resemble more the 1st country we left behind.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Just wanna say, that children and horses, give their hearts to those that are leaders worth following, and learning from, that teach them how to lead someday. 

People that get all starry eyed about the olden days...just like any time there were good things and bad things. But I think a general trend in the world's consciousness is how people are treated...the status of women has risen steadily, and by status I mean that women are capable human beings that are wise and have valued skills including leadership. Also children are slowly becoming more than slaves and ways to increase the wealth of the family, they are human beings full of potential, deserving of a basic education and clean water etc.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

and a "leader" aint always the one in charge neither


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> *Also children are slowly becoming more than slaves and ways to increase the wealth of the family,* they are human beings full of potential, deserving of a basic education and clean water etc.


 
Can you elaborate on this?


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

First off, I tip my hat to Rhonda. There is no more important job in the world than being a good momma. One of the toughest and lowest paid jobs in the world, but also the highest responsibility occupation there is! She is taking care of her kids first and foremost. The world would be a better place with more momma's like her!!!

I also agree with Ox! We make our own destiny in this world. For sure it can be taken away from us in a heartbeat. But we must plan as well as we can. I ain't rich and I ain't poor, and I'm not sure if I'm even between?

I've made it through some deals that most didn't expect me to survive financially. I had a good banker/friend that also helped??? but they were paid help.  It was done by giving some body fluids at times! Yes, I missed out on some things with family. But they realized that it was for all of us, not just me!

I don't give a darn for those with the victim mentality either. When I started my family it was on ranch wages. Seems like $600 a month and beef, utilities, in the 80's. I got my wage, broke horses, trapped, bought a dozer for outside work, and taught myself to make saddles. And put a small cowherd together... the best thing about it was, I could do it all my boys there! They learned how to work and what it is. Could've done better in other fields of work for sure, but not with my kids with me.

I've made it thru a long running drought, establishing a business, and a divorce.

Moved on, and bought a place that, where If I nailed a board up, I could say it was mine. It was a long dark tunnel, but it's short and bright now.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I have never been able to understand why women go ahead and have children when they're not equipped to provide for them. I'm not pointing any fingers here; I've simply seen it happen over and over IRL, and it mystifies me. Do they really believe everything will somehow work out just fine?

When I was younger, I did the math and figured that by the time I paid a babysitter out of my meager salary, I'd be pretty danged poor, and I wouldn't even have the enjoyment of watching my kids grow up because I'd be off working some lousy job to clear $2 an hour after childcare and taxes. 

Umm, no thank you! 

I've never regretted that decision, either.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

If I had waited until I could see how I could afford kids willow, I probably would be childless? It was a long row to hoe, but they were worth it!


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> I have never been able to understand why women go ahead and have children when they're not equipped to provide for them.


Many women who truly believed in the "til death do we part" aspect of their marriage vow, also saw their mate as a good father and financial partner to the family unit...And naturally they did what countless other couples have done since the dawn of mankind...

I know...sad.


.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

I did not make my post to garner sympathy or kudos. Trust me, I am not a victim. I have made bad choices...some of which didn't look like the wrong choice at the time and some were the lesser of two evils and some were so totally right, my heart is still filled with joy over them 

My point with the post was that sometimes it doesn't matter what you do it will never be enough or right, according to someone looking to pass judgement. Also, poverty does not necessarily have the face you think it does and not all poor folks are spouse and kid beating druggies, looking to get over on the system. IMHO and in my personal experience, there are more good folks than bad.

I learned something with this thread. I learned that I never want to be so right or jaded that I lose my compassion for those around me. The kids and I won't be in this spot forever. We are already way better off than we were 10 months ago and we will continue to move forward


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]From an article by John Stossel in Jewish World Review today. I would not have believed it and certainly knew nothing such as this in the community where I grew up. 
Ox

"Early last century, wife beating was routine. A North Carolina newspaper from 1913 carried a front-page story titled, "For and Against Wife Beating." Most "expert" commentary was in favor of it. One doctor argued, "Beat her, she needs it," and a female advice columnist declared, "It's well known that women love most the men who are cruel.""[/FONT]


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

I predict this thread will go "poof" shortly. Can't say I'd blame them.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

doingitmyself said:


> I predict this thread will go "poof" shortly. Can't say I'd blame them.



Maybe. I just can't figure out what Ox is looking for with this thread. Does he want us all to agree that being poor=domestic violence? That domestic violence is worse now than when he was growing up? That women prefer violent men over nice guys? Or, did he just want to discuss this particular book? I do get the feeling that he has not gotten what he was looking for.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The fact is that wife beating was just one subject in the general discussion of the life of the English underclass. 

My own conclusion is that much of what the man discusses in 250+ pages is what I have seen here in the US--with the exception of wife-beating. I did not realize that violence toward women was so prevalent here. 

We, here in the USA, tend not to consider "class". We know that people segregate themselves by income, by education, by interests, and we know that certain neighborhoods in our cities are no-go for ordinary people. We can read the newspapers and learn all this. We just don't like to think of it that way. 

Nevertheless, there is an underclass, and an underclass mentality, in the United States. When we have Domestic Violence Intervention agencies, when we have two billion dollars in shoplifting, when we have 1 per 200 killings in the 18-24 age range in men, when half our people are dependent on government for subsistence we know there is an underclass. Define it as you will, there are people out there you would not want as neighbors.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

rkintn said:


> Maybe. I just can't figure out what Ox is looking for with this thread. Does he want us all to agree that being poor=domestic violence? That domestic violence is worse now than when he was growing up? That women prefer violent men over nice guys? Or, did he just want to discuss this particular book? I do get the feeling that he has not gotten what he was looking for.


Great analogy!


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> The fact is that wife beating was just one subject in the general discussion of the life of the English underclass.
> 
> My own conclusion is that much of what the man discusses in 250+ pages is what I have seen here in the US--*with the exception of wife-beating. I did not realize that violence toward women was so prevalent here*.
> 
> ...


Ox, violence toward women is everywhere in all levels of society in every nation in the world. There are no exceptions. It's every woman's worst nightmare. Maybe you just never noticed it before because you weren't looking for it so you didn't recognize it. You say there was no violence towards women around you in your life and your communities but I can 100% guarantee you that you are wrong about that. Maybe you don't realize it but you did and maybe still do know people who beat their wives. Some of them might even have been relatives or your best friends over the years. They've kept it hidden from society and you have just never recognized the tell-tale signs because you haven't been looking for it.

Check this out: http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm

Regarding class systems - Every nation has a class system, even USA. There has always been a class system.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> The fact is that wife beating was just one subject in the general discussion of the life of the English underclass.
> 
> My own conclusion is that much of what the man discusses in 250+ pages is what I have seen here in the US--with the exception of wife-beating. I did not realize that violence toward women was so prevalent here.
> 
> ...



I hate to be the one to break it to you, but those people ARE your neighbors. As much as you think you do, you do not truly KNOW your friends and neighbors. It's the stuff you don't know about them that would scare you to death.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Apparently I have led a charmed life. I'm going to try to keep it that way.
Ox


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Oxankle said:


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]From an article by John Stossel in Jewish World Review today. I would not have believed it and certainly knew nothing such as this in the community where I grew up. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ox[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Early last century, wife beating was routine. A North Carolina newspaper from 1913 carried a front-page story titled, "For and Against Wife Beating." Most "expert" commentary was in favor of it. One doctor argued, "Beat her, she needs it," and a female advice columnist declared, *"It's well known that women love most the men who are cruel*.""[/FONT]


I would NOT say women Love men who are cruel, I would say they are scared, beat down to believing no one else will have them, brainwashed, isolated from family and friends, feeling of helplessness, hopelessness, then they end up just being submissive, and learn to walk on egg shells to not set them off, and you never know what that is. It just becomes their life. Being in this position for long enough, seems better than the unknown. 
She/he has to make up in their own mind when enough is enough and make a strong stand for their life. And that is what is all boils down too, you have to be strong and make a stand, wheather its abuse from a husband or wife, alcohol, drugs, smokes, etc. Once you figure out in your head to make it stop, so it will.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Ox, I think that you've been trying to understand several issues lately and do respect you for that but I also think that you're looking to simplify some pretty complex issues and domestic violence is a very complex issue that is not just a lower class problem nor is it simply a case of a woman wanting a strong man. 

My personal experiences aren't going to change your mind but I have worked as a volunteer in a woman's shelter for years and I can assure you that there is no economic profile for abuse. Quite often people don't see the signs of abuse for wealthy women because after hubby beats the stuffing out of her, he sends her off for a week at a spa while the bruises heal and if there are significant injuries, they're treated in private clinics. 

Low income and middle class women end up in shelters, ER and doctor's offices because that's the only option available to them.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

rkintn said:


> I hate to be the one to break it to you, but those people ARE your neighbors. As much as you think you do, you do not truly KNOW your friends and neighbors. It's the stuff you don't know about them that would scare you to death.



Well now ain't that something to think about!!! Well put!!


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

doingitmyself said:


> Well now ain't that something to think about!!! Well put!!



I probably watch too many crime shows


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

I hope your wrong about neighbors, but I think your more right than wrong.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

doingitmyself said:


> I hope your wrong about neighbors, but I think your more right than wrong.



It also means that we are someone else's weird neighbor


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

finis


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]From an article by John Stossel in Jewish World Review today. I would not have believed it and certainly knew nothing such as this in the community where I grew up.
> Ox
> 
> "Early last century, wife beating was routine. A North Carolina newspaper from 1913 carried a front-page story titled, "For and Against Wife Beating." Most "expert" commentary was in favor of it. One doctor argued, "Beat her, she needs it," and a female advice columnist declared, "It's well known that women love most the men who are cruel.""[/FONT]


I didn't believe what my mother had told me about Polish men (I assumed it was her way of excusing my father's bad behavior) until years after her death, when I ran across a news article about some Polish women in Poland who were trying to make headway against their culture's acceptance of domestic violence. 

OMG ... _she wasn't making it up after all_. :facepalm:


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