# LGD Prices - Pups, Adolescents, Adults....



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Been wanting to tackle this topic for some time may as well post it while I have a minute....

Buyers: What do you pay? What won't you pay? Why?

Breeders: What do you charge for each above listed age group....and what does it include.

Here's my "story" having been in both shoes breeder and buyer.... 

Have underpaid and overpaid in my time. Everything from getting my two gorgeous ace Anatolian/Maremma boys $30 for both (gasp) from a huge sheep ranch near here....to grossly overpaying for another dog...because I didn't know any better. The two boys are two of my best dogs....the latter....ended up having issues in goats...she is in training on my partners ranch with sheep now, doing better. Never even got papers on her, the breeder told us all they'd be registered, ended up year later just sending us applications.... No comment necessary......

Importing dogs from EU: runs around $1000-1500 each pup plus shipping, depending on from where, size of dog or pup, and what is involved, can add anywhere from $1000-2000+ onto the price of the pup. Doing that, I research before I commit.... Again, I'm a breeder, bringing in future broodstock, so the expense is warranted to get my program off the ground...

What I charge for 'basic lgd' pups: began low, trying to 'be nice' and do folks a favor...$200 a pup, second one was $150. Included all vax, dewormings, etc.

What I found out when charging low prices for puppies (8 wks weaned): got lots of flakey callers, people backed out, never sent deposits....told me they wanted two then at last minute oh no, just one.....sheesh.....grrrrr!

Was lucky that eventually all were placed in good working homes. But next time around: due to high increase in food, vet supplies, shots, dewormer, etc., my prices on my Pyrs, LGD crosses, going up to $300-400 puppies, started pups, $500-800...I never seem to be able to hang on to a pup long enough to sell as broke older dog. But I would expect to pay a grand on up for a good broke dog guarding stock. $1500 even...

My more 'exotic' LGD breeds, Spanish Mastiffs, Kangals, Boz, and Pyrenean Mastiffs will be $800-1500 each...with lowest price to working ranch and farm customers who need them to guard, not as status symbol pets. I refuse to overprice them. 

I know of people charging in this country $2500-$5000 for a Spanish Mastiff puppy right now....which is absolutely ridiculous and blatant overpricing, IMHO....especially when you can bring one over from EU for way less than that. No rancher I know can afford that kind of dough for a young pup, but rich lawyers or doctors will pay that for a status symbol or a 'yuppy puppy'. But this is what happens with rare breed dogs in general, its a fad, unscrupulous breeders take advantage of it...and there are fools out there who'll pay that.

OKAY off my soapbox...but just curious what the market is like out there.

I know for the longest time LGD's in general ran much more....prices seem to be coming down, I think its a reflection of the tough economy and times....its one thing to demand a high price, another to get it...but the flip side is, too low, and you get a lot of people wanting a pup from you that you'd never sell to....no explanations necessary for you other breeders out there I'm sure...grin.... I could make a sit com out of some of the queries I've gotten. Just weird, clueless, arrogant....the list goes on....lol.


----------



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Anytime you are pricing pups/dogs for sale as a breeder, you need to look at 2 factors:

1) How much does it cost me to raise these dogs?
2) How much are other breeders of comprable bloodlines charging?

If you factor in health testing of your adults, any costs associated with getting your ***** bred (progesterone testing, AI, c-section, etc), costs of vaccinating / deworming/ vetting / feeding the pups themselves, etc, what do you have to charge per pup to break even on the litter?

If your out of pocket expenses per pup comes out to $300, and all the good & responsible breeders around you are charging $500, you want to review your numbers and see if you've missed something...or if the other breeders are trying to get $ to help them cover the costs of their adult dogs (like dog food, annual vet visits, etc). At that point its up to you whether you stick with the $300 or if you up the price to $500 to help offset some of the expenses that you incur keeping your adult dogs.

Now if you're charging $300 and everyone else is charging $200, you have to decide if you can afford to take a loss on the litter to match their pricing or if you will stick with charging what you need to charge so that you can break even.

Keep in mind that any time you get into show kennels, the price of the pups goes up because the cost of showing the parents gets added to the overall expenses of the breeder....and the price of the pups rises to help the breeder break even. For non-showing breeders, pricing is usually way lower because they aren't shouldering the massive expenses that come with finishing a dog. So if you don't show your dogs, you can't compare your pricing to someone who does - its apples to oranges.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I know...you are right. But if you look at LGD ads all over the country you will notice: huge difference in price ranges....and these aren't show dogs...they work, period. Some may be registered but I am talking working dogs not showing - none of that. Pure work.

Some parts of country, there seems to be places where you can get Anatolians (for example) for a song....then over a couple of states, they are way more expensive.

I don't do this to get rich. If my dogs pay their way I am satisfied....my focus is raising sound, healthy good working dogs. I will be facing AI expenses in near future for one *****. I will be getting hips done on some of my dogs when they are the right age for it. Those expenses have not come up yet.

The fact still remains: at some point, you raise prices too high, you may be stuck with pups you can't sell. I'm still just curious what others who raise dogs to work, charge, how they look at this...etc. And I'd like to hear what people have paid for LGD's....and if they think they were worth it, worth less, more, ??????


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

We paid 200 for our first Anatolian. He was 9 weeks. Not certified, ***** under 2yrs old. Included first wormings & vacs. From working parents.
He's a fine dog but not as assertive or aggressive as #2.

#2 3/4 Anat/Pyr. At about 13 weeks owner brought him into goat pen. This pup born & raised with goats. Traded two doelings for him. No papers no nothing but by far the better of the two. This one attends births & is much more proactive on the job. 
This is the one we got from a local HT member who hasnt been on for a long time.


----------



## R&R Farm (Jun 12, 2008)

I am a fanatic about the working specimens of any LGD breed and currently own a 6 month old Anatolian. I would consider myself an excellent prospect for a home for any pup, just about any temperament (although I prefer the calm ones). I will probably be looking for another in the future and have done my homework (not saying I know it all, just know what I want and what to expect). All that being said, I will do without before I pay over 600.00. A breeder may have that much in the pups but they aren't worth that to me. I also know enough to stay clear of the 50.00 pups. Just my .02......Mike


----------



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

If I were in the market for a LGD, here's what I'd be willing to pay.

Proven adult? I'd probably be happy paying $2,000 or more for one... provided I got the dog for a 30-day adjustment and trial period to ensure that his/her protective drive would transfer to my current flock. There's very little training required here - just have to acclimate the dog to my stock and my routines. Worth every penny to have an immediately effective protector for my stock!

Adolescent? Would depend on how old and how much training he/she had.... again I'd probably want a 30-day trial to see how the dog did with my animals, and price I'd be willing to pay would depend on how much training I'd have left to do with the dog, but would pay between $800 - $1,200 or so. 

Pup? Untrained pups are a LOT of work, and they're a roll of the dice - even coming from good bloodlines, they may turn out to be a chicken killer, may not end up being a very good LGD in general. I'd be inclined to pay no more than $400 for a pup for these reasons. I'd pay more for a pup with proven LGD parents and solid LGD bloodlines - closer to the $400 mark....less for a pup who's parents aren't currently working livestock or who doesn't have older siblings I can look at to see how well the parents are passing along their guarding insticts to.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I've never paid over 75 for a pyr. For the akbash, we paid 200, but it was not a good match for our family. I wouldn't pay any more than that for a working dog. Actually I probably wouldn't pay over 250 for any dog at all at this point in our lives. I see them as pets at this point in our lives.


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

I paid $350 for my proven adult Akbash. Of course, once I got him we discovered he had heartworm, so he ended up costing a lot more than that. 

How much would I pay for another? Honestly, it would depend. Is the breeding stock x-rayed, and clear on any other health testing required for the breed? Are the parents proven guardians? 

Personally, for my situation, I'd want a very specific temperament--a good guardian, but one that is benevolent toward guests and the dogs that come in and out of my grooming shop. I don't want a human-aggressive LGD; a warning bark is great, a bite is not. I want a mellow dog that isn't prone to wandering or barking all night.

My Akbash dog is all of these things, but I understand that he is unusual for the breed. If I could clone him, I would! If I could have one just like him, I'd save up so I could pay whatever the breeder asks (within reason). But I wouldn't pay $3-5K for any dog, unless I won the lottery.


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I paid 600 for my big size maremma...and 350 for the runt....in my opinion they are and will continue to be worth every dollar.
Great pyrs go for 200 in Texas......some try to sell for more.....But I did a lot of research and decided to pay the extra to get exactly what I wanted...in other words...the pros and cons in both..and maremma's had more pros.
I traveled to Austin to get mine...almost 6 hr drive.....(Texas is a big state...Jezzz...lol)... my only other choice was Barefoot farm...which was a little further...however everyone that ask about my boys....I will refer them to the lady in Austin and barefoot farm....they are the only 2 in the near area without driving all the way to winddance farm....or california...also they seem to be very rare...so I feel very fortunate to own them. Oh did I mention that I also get a rebate..after I have the bigger one fixed....still worth it to me...and I am sleeping much better at night


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I can tell you what I paid, what I'm charging for my pups~ and why I'm probably not breeding her again (it is price related)

I paid $450 for cricket~ she is AKC registered. The man sent her home with me at 8 weeks old, he was not interested in keeping her longer though I wish he would have. She was a NIGHTMARE to teach not to play with livestock and chase/eat chickens. Took a while but finally got her convinced those were not for her, my unregistered and nuetuered Grt Pyr was not so much trouble because he was allowed to learn from his momma until he was 12 weeks old.

So~ fast forward, Cricket becomes a great working dog. People comment on her all the time~ she runs under flying birds to keep them from striking the free range chickens and she trained our Rottweiler puppy not to chase/eat chickens! I pay $250 to get her hips Xrayed and certified "Good" and start looking for a stud.

The stud part is important to the end of the story~ and related to why I probably won't breed Cricket again. I had a difficult time finding a local stud that was AKC and OFA and working with livestock. I did find one~ the lady who owned him told me she needed $1500 stud fee and I would have to agree to sell all the pups for no less than $1200 each with "Limited" registrations. She made a rather big deal about the quality of her dogs and that taking less than $1200 for a puppy was just throwing that puppy away. I really did not feel like that was at all reasonable and I was sure I would not be able to get the puppies homes so I declined. 

Crickets next heat I was able to find a working AKC anatolian stud I liked the look of~ but he is not certified OFA and his owner has no desire to pull his dog from his job and pay to get his hips xrayed and certified. So I gave up on OFA for the stud and paid $450 stud fee for cricket to breed that stud. Very nice looking dog, good working dog, runs and walks easy just no cert on his hips.

Puppies arrive! YA! 5 girls, 1 boy. I'm excited~ decide to ask $600 for each pup. I beleive this is reasonable as they will be AKC, the ***** is also OFA, I'm selling with FULL registration AND I'm allowing the new owners to leave the pups on Cricket her training them me feeding them up through 16 weeks. They can pick up as early as 8 weeks but I'm encouraging longer with cricket unless they already have a good working dog to teach the puppy.

Th pups are only 4 weeks old now so I've not put much effort into advertising them~ a little here and there. Two of the pups already sold so I am going to be able to find homes for the other four I'm sure. BUT

Already I've had it suggested to me that $600 is much too high for a puppy, AND I've found where the breeder who had the stud she wanted $1500 fee and no puppies for sale less than $1200 limited contract.....well she now has a "Partner" they are selling three male pups at $600 each (I dont know if it's full registration or not) and it looks to like between that lady and her partner there is at least a good 8 to 12 bitches they plan to breed soon. There are going to be a LOT of cheap anatolians soon. A lot of them I'm afraid.

Cricket won't be ready to breed again for at least another year~ so I have time to watch and see what happens....but I suspect this will be her only litter. I won't be breeding puppies I can't get GOOD working homes for. I'm disappointed. I did want to do another litter later.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

This is what really makes you wonder....about people!

Yeah, suddenly $1200 puppies turn into $600 pups. Hmmmmm......she sounds flakey to me.

I think $600 is reasonable, what you are asking and I think your pups would be worth that. In my neck of the woods AKC is almost a four letter word with some ranchers, they run in the opposite direction claiming AKC dogs have had all the work and brains bred out of them (I am just repeating folks, what's been said to me on more than one occasion).

Right now I have a pup that has been sold twice. He is 1/2 Kangal, 1/4 Anatolian, 1/4 Maremma. Out of my Kangal girl's Feb litter. Consistently the largest pup in the litter. Had him sold once to a guy in CA who never came up with any money. So I told him adios. Now, supposedly, "Elk" is sold to a huge sheep rancher in Utah. But still....no money. Told the guy needed to see his check by today; it did not come. I had him sold for $300 and he's 14 weeks old today. Already at 50 pounds and looks like he will outgrow his 34" dad - he is huge. 

I am giving the guy in Utah till tomorrow to get his check to me then I will tell him sorry, and keep this pup back for myself as a potential stud down the road; he is after all 3/4 Turkish breeds so will throw some great working pups I am certain, like his daddy does..... What gets me is he is easily a $600 pup - half Kangal. And here I am only asking $300 for him. Go price Kangals. They generally run $1,000 up at 8 weeks. His dad and mom are two of the most fierce protectors I own. I know he will be a great dog. But here is not one but two people flaking out over $300.00 priced pup. Makes you wonder. Some people want everything for nothing. And the cross is proven has been done before and all pups work and guard their hearts out. He will too. 

Its stuff like this that gets discouraging. And also, the experience you had with that breeder and her contract and the pricetags....very discouraging. Yeah that's when you say no thank you and walk away....

Note: I aggressively advertise my litters before born, and every single one has been sold out before born (I have to exclude the flakes who never sent deposits). I want to know all my pups are solidly placed by the time they hit 8 weeks. Of course then you get the flakes who never send money.....well, again, that is the frustrating aspect!


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Good luck Goatress~ Elk sounds like a fine pup. He'll work hard for you if not for the man in utah. It sounds like you know what your doing. I don't really know what I"m doing but I'm learning, I've never done puppies before. I don't regret doing it~ but I'm being very careful at every step.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Goatress said:


> he is after all 3/4 Turkish breeds so will throw some great working pups I am certain, like his daddy does..... What gets me is he is easily a $600 pup - half Kangal.


But it is different with you because you have some rare breeds there. Nobody has kangals selling regularly. Now, here, GPs are very common. You can find them 25x a year or more if you wanted to buy one that often. Anatolians are getting a bit more common too, but not like pyrs. But if you see one Kangal litter a year within a 4hr drive from us, it would be surprising. So, of course, that litter would be worth more. In pricing, a lot has to do with market saturation rather than the dogs themselves.


----------



## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Well, this is our last litter, although due to other issues than prices. 

Although, the last litter FLEW out of here at 8 weeks, and I had 2 people waiting on pups this year, I still have 5 pups left now at 11 weeks. I did somehow forget to put the price in my ad this year, so maybe the potential buyers are afrid these are $1200? I will have to change my ad and see what happens.

The GOOD thing about this is that Mom gets to teach the pups, they've encountered broody hens, (lol) and I get to see them going out with the sheep on their own! These are started pups now, and safely on their way to being EXCELLENT LGDs. We have free range poultry, so the pups already know birds are off=limits.

I sold my best female prospect to a couple getting livestock. The lady called me a couple of days ago to tell me how smart she was...already telling her when she needed to go out to pee.:shocked:

My rejoiner," What is she doing in the HOUSE?!" People! I only had one puppy that might make it as a companion dog, and she went on trial...I told them to put her with the goats for 3 months first so she could bond before taking her inside during the day. They were stopping for ice cream on the way home, though, so who knows? The new owner called me to brag on the pup's intelligence, but she didn't tell me where the pup was.

People must have livestock to get one of my pups. I did have another woman call me about a pup. She wanted hip xrays and registration papers. I told her the pups are purebred but no papers, and that the parents show no signs of HD. Well, she wants all that for a $275.00 working pup. I invited her to go to the internet and pay 3x that amount for a reg pup. She said, "Oh, it's more than that." 

You have to laugh.


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Judy in IN said:


> She wanted hip xrays and registration papers. I told her the pups are purebred but no papers, and that the parents show no signs of HD. Well, she wants all that for a $275.00 working pup.


I would want hip x-rays, no matter what the price and I would ask about it anytime I was looking at a puppy, registered or not. Dysplastic dogs often show no sign of being dysplastic.


----------



## simplepeace (Oct 29, 2005)

I would never, ever pay a penny for a working dog unless it's parents had PennHip or OFA scores, and I would not purchase a herding breed without eyes cleared as well.
One time cost of hip testing sire & dam should not keep any breeders from having it done, it is NOT that expensive. 
I could not afford the time and energy, much less the $$ for a dog that could become lame or go blind AFTER it was fully trained. No way! But maybe that is just me? 
I would pay a premium ($1000+) for a working dog from proven working stock that had all health certification, including a pup.
I would not pay more for AKC or any other registry - not important imo for a working dog.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Unfortunately HD results do not guarantee an HD free litter or A hips out of those HD A parents. Nor does it ensure healthy knees, tibias.... At some point, you take a chance, it is a risk. I have a mastine from CZ...good hips....severely bad tibias.... There are never any guarantees. Both her parents HD free A and B rated hips. No history of tibia issues. It is more like we do the testing to eliminate breeding bad hipped parents but honestly, you can still get HD from A rated parents. I have seen it. None of my dogs have ever had it or thrown it. I think also, primitive breeds like the Kangal, survived fit for centuries due to culling. How many breeders here cull their litters? I do. I culled two pups out of last one - overshot bites - were put down. Have culled Catahoula litters for potential deafness. There are no guarantees. You can test all you want you can say "OFA Certified parents" to me and it means nothing to me because I know the pups can still come out with it. Papers - AKC - I don't register.....my mastine and Pyreneans are FCI out of EU....Kangals...I won't touch the KDCA club here in US, corrupt with nepotism and trying to modify the breed into something it is not. Papers do not mean much to most ranchers with big operations in need of serious protection, they are more interested in dog's stamina, guts, guarding ability.... Anyhow, there are arguments on both sides for both sides, for sure. I am not trying to incite a war over it just saying, about the time you think you can sit back and say you'll never see a defect in your certified litters, well....guess what?


----------



## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Well, I'll check into it when I get the next rabies shots. My big dogs don't travel well....it's very stressful for them to be away from their sheep.


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Goatress said:


> Unfortunately HD results do not guarantee an HD free litter or A hips out of those HD A parents.


You're right, it doesn't. I had a pup with HD A parents who wound up severely dysplastic. It's still a crapshoot. However, you're stacking the odds in your favor by breeding only dogs with good hips, because bad hips are more likely to produce bad hips. You don't want to breed a dysplastic dog, and often the only way you can see dysplasia is through an x-ray. Some dogs will not show any sign of pain or lameness even if severly dysplastic; saying a dog has "no sign of hip problems" means nothing without an x-ray.


----------



## simplepeace (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolf Flower said:


> However, you're stacking the odds in your favor by breeding only dogs with good hips, because bad hips are more likely to produce bad hips. You don't want to breed a dysplastic dog, and often the only way you can see dysplasia is through an x-ray. Some dogs will not show any sign of pain or lameness even if severly dysplastic; saying a dog has "no sign of hip problems" means nothing without an x-ray.


Exactly, thanks - that is what I would have said.  And it lets the buyer know that basic testing (and research by the breeder) has been done. 

It is the buyers job to know what the testing means as well. Of course it is not fool-proof, but it is still a good place to start. And very important to ME. When I am considering breeders I wouldn't consider one that didn't do testing no matter how good their dogs looked.

Sorry this might not be what you meant when you asked about pricing? But my answer is that I don't know anyone personally who has a price limit. It isn't about $$, size or color. it is about soundness of body & mind.
And I do know that everyone I know wants at least the basic hip testing if they are spending anything. Freebies are another story. 

And Judy I know that taking them anywhere can be really stressful. Much less to be xrayed. Mine would have to be sedated for it!


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

simplepeace said:


> And Judy I know that taking them anywhere can be really stressful. Much less to be xrayed. Mine would have to be sedated for it!


Cricket did have to be sedated. That was where all the expense was. The actual OFA cert was nothing compared to what it costs to safely sedate a 100# dog and x ray her hips. My understanding from my vet was that it wasn't possible to get the views needed without sedating her.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I agree....have had some of my dogs x rayed...some not yet....too young. Yes it is a crapshoot. Also, breed specific, some breeds prone to more problems than others it seems. Some really primitive breeds like the Kangal and Boz, have no record of it at all again due to harsh upbringing, culling, survival of the fittest, etc..... In real working strains of LGDs with no AKC or show background I think chances are there will be less problems than those that have been pampered, overfed, not worked, etc. Just my HO.

I do buy dogs from non cert parents. And some of them have been the best LGD's I've ever owned. Sound as a rock and guarding fools.

Price wise, figure breeder would add more to price to pay for extra vet checks and diagnosis. Which is fair.


----------



## ONG2 (Sep 22, 2010)

I think some of you breeders are missing the point. A large portion of the equation of what should/will I pay for a dog/puppy is the reputation of the breeder. I have had Dobies most of my life. The one we have now is the best that we ever had (and we have had some great dogs). I did my research and checked out many breeders. Found the one I wanted to do business with and told him my needs. He picked out the pup for us. 

Spent the most I ever did on a pup, and it was the best deal that I ever made on a dog.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

ONG2 said:


> I think some of you breeders are missing the point. A large portion of the equation of what should/will I pay for a dog/puppy is the reputation of the breeder. I have had Dobies most of my life. The one we have now is the best that we ever had (and we have had some great dogs). I did my research and checked out many breeders. Found the one I wanted to do business with and told him my needs. He picked out the pup for us.
> 
> Spent the most I ever did on a pup, and it was the best deal that I ever made on a dog.


That is why I have a list of references in several states that I can give to prospective customers of people who own dogs I have bred and who will all wholeheartedly confirm the excellent health, working ability and overall satisfaction they have with the puppy I sold them. My customers stay in touch with me regularly and I make myself available to them at all times to walk them through things or answer questions. Any breeder not willing to do that shouldn't be breeding. I've also made lasting friendships with some customers and that part is always great.

In the same breath, although I may not do puppy contracts, if I find out someone misrepresented to me their capacity for owning one of my dogs, I will not sell to them again, and I will warn other breeders about them so they do not make same mistake I did. Ditto for potential customers who bounce checks or don't come through with deposits. I keep a 'do not sell' list of names of people who have BS'd me in E-mails or who don't come up with deposits or make continual excuses as to why the 'check isn't in the mail yet' etc. Ditto for people who try to wobble on price or complain about price (which is already affordable) - if they can't come up with deposit how do they expect to come up with the money to feed and care for this pup, etc.??????

It works both ways......


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

ONG2 said:


> I think some of you breeders are missing the point. A large portion of the equation of what should/will I pay for a dog/puppy is the reputation of the breeder.


It depends on how you think too. When all is said and done, this is a dog.... not a car, not a college education, not gold.... a dog. To me they bark at intruders, run off stray/wild animals, eat leftovers, and become my friends. I can get 5dozen of them a year for free if I wanted to in the Free Pets ads. So, I wouldn't pay a heavy price for them no matter what papers they came with. They are pets more so than anything else to our family at this point in our lives.
I have no problem paying for their medical care, food, treats, collars..... But I'm not going to put $1200 or $2000 into buying a dog. I just won't do it. I have a bunch of them right now, and friends who have lots of them too. Dogs, at least GP, are not a rare commodity around here. And the free GP do the same work as a $2000 GP would. They all bark at intruders, chase off stray wildlife, and become your friend. I'm willing to pay a small amount to get young puppies, but the older dogs are in the Free section of newspapers and Craig's List on a regular basis.


----------



## ONG2 (Sep 22, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that paying big bucks assures one one of a great animal. However a breeder with a well deserved reputation of producing quality animals is going to be able to charge and get more for his animals, than the casual breeder.


----------



## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Free is fine when it's going to mainly be a pet. If you want a working dog, you really take chances on those free dogs. If they were good LGs, they wouldn't be free in an ad. It's the person's choice which they want and get, but I understood the OP to ask about LGDs not pet dogs. Seen too many free GPs that were free when they kept killing chickens, not what I need. Meathead kills rabbits... And will find a way to get to them  And he eats eggs, and can squeeze into the hen door of the coop. Yep, a free GP, but we have found ways to work around it. Someone else would have probably shot him LOL


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> It depends on how you think too. When all is said and done, this is a dog.... not a car, not a college education, not gold.... a dog. To me they bark at intruders, run off stray/wild animals, eat leftovers, and become my friends. I can get 5dozen of them a year for free if I wanted to in the Free Pets ads. So, I wouldn't pay a heavy price for them no matter what papers they came with. They are pets more so than anything else to our family at this point in our lives.


For a housepet, I can understand that. But some of us are very particular with what we want in a dog--working drives, temperament, predictability--and those things are what *good* breeders live and die for. Good breeders spend a ton of time, energy, and money on their dogs; health testing, going to shows, working trials, getting titles on their dogs, researching pedigrees, etc. If I buy a puppy, I want to know what I'm getting. $1500 is a lot of money, but good breeding can save you at least that much in vet bills, etc.



> And the free GP do the same work as a $2000 GP would.


Not necessesarily. At all. MANY "free" LGDs can end up costing you in lost livestock.


----------



## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I would love to have a Kangal because of their particular traits, but hubby will not allow it. He thinks I just want "more pets". I see them as an investment in security. If we spend all this time and money on crops and livestock, it all needs to be protected day and night. I will not, however, pay 1000.00 for a dog. 

I think around here the Anatolians are around 3-400.00 which is reasonable. Gps are less than that. It seems Great Pyrenees are "all the rage" in homesteading right now, and breeders are looking to cash in. They are a dime a dozen, with homeless dogs showing up frequently. 

I will most likely be reduced to trying out a GP from a local ad who needs to be rehomed, and hope it works out. I wish that I could do better than that, but money isn't nearly as plentiful as it used to be. 

I certainly wouldn't pay anything for papers. AKC means nothing to me as far as a working dog goes. I have two pure breed dogs now, and never bothered to register either one of them. 

My Lab was AKC, but without xray or cert...250.00 eight years ago. Poor thing is a genetic nightmare, physically. Sweet dog, but she wants to love my chickens to death.

My Newf is AKC and heart, joint cert from good lineage, and she was 1200.00 three years ago. Looking back on it I think it was stupid to spend that much on a dog, and she wants to catch anything that runs. As big as she is, that means dead to chickens and cats.

I'll be looking in the 300.00 to free range. I think many people financially just can't swing extra money these days.


----------



## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

We raise Anatolian Shepherd and get $300 for our pups. They only go to working homes. My litters average around a dozen pups each time. I have 4 9-week old females left from the last liter if anyone is interested. Two I've taken deposits on but the buyers only have until this weekend to pick them up, then they go back on the market.


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Your puppies have to be picked up by 9 weeks old? How does that work out for you and your buyers? I'm planning to let the pups stay with Cricket 12 to 16 weeks so they get a chance to learn more from her and I thought that was pretty standard for LGDs. Is that why you only ask $300 for them~ your not putting as much food and time into them?

Edit~ it occurs to me that question might sound snarky~ please don't read it that way I'm asking a legitimate question. Crickets litter is the only litter we have ever had so we are learning.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Some people keep them longer but that has not always been my observation. A lot of breeders part with pups at 8-9-10-11 weeks old. I have one here who is coming 15 weeks old he will go this weekend to Oregon. 

It can be a fine line....the older they get, the longer it will take for them to make the transition from me to the buyer, from my goats to the buyer's stock...that has been my experience anyway. 

Some ranchers prefer to take them at 9 weeks because they want to get them early to get them going the way they prefer to. And I am not the only one who lets them go 'this young' in fact most of the LGD's I have brought over from EU were 9-12 weeks old, not older as you do. 

My $300 pups are probably worth more as stated in the beginning of this thread I started out trying to make it financially attractive for a buyer to buy more than one pup as most people usually need more than one LGD. But I am as said before, re-thinkng that line of thought.

*The father of my Boz Shepherd girl from Turkey recently sold for $72,935.00....which kinda makes all of our dogs suddenly look cheap...don't it......?*


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Your puppies have to be picked up by 9 weeks old? How does that work out for you and your buyers? I'm planning to let the pups stay with Cricket 12 to 16 weeks so they get a chance to learn more from her and I thought that was pretty standard for LGDs. Is that why you only ask $300 for them~ your not putting as much food and time into them?
> 
> Edit~ it occurs to me that question might sound snarky~ please don't read it that way I'm asking a legitimate question. Crickets litter is the only litter we have ever had so we are learning.



I picked mine up at 8 weeks old....if they stay with the parents any longer..they will be trained to guard whatever livestock they have, not mine.
So it may take longer to get them adjusted? Also if your raising goats...and the puppies are trained to guard goats..then shouldnt you be asking more for your puppies that are already LGD trained?..Just curious, because I know that a trained LGD goes for more money.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

You guys that was the whole purpose of my starting this thread not to just post my .02 cents but to get feedback and input on pricing of dogs......why don't you guys be more specific by stating what you paid or will pay or ?????

In my world, the more time, shots, food, dewormings, 'training & exposure' I put into a pup, the more he is going to cost..... Finished dogs - that topic was touched on previously in this thread.....yes they go for more.....a 15 week old pup is not finished.....again, one guys' 'cheap' is another guys' 'expensive'. This is not written in stone..... _Your_ "cheap" $300 (in reference to my pups) may be another man's "out of my price league bucko".... I know it might be because I had people tell me it was.

Thats why I was trying to get others to put their prices in here too. Fowler and Cheryl why don't you tell us what you consider trained and what you have paid in the past??????? Or are asking for your pups, and why......

I did this for informational purpose only, not wanting to get in a snit with anyone here...


----------



## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Your puppies have to be picked up by 9 weeks old? How does that work out for you and your buyers? I'm planning to let the pups stay with Cricket 12 to 16 weeks so they get a chance to learn more from her and I thought that was pretty standard for LGDs. Is that why you only ask $300 for them~ your not putting as much food and time into them?
> 
> Edit~ it occurs to me that question might sound snarky~ please don't read it that way I'm asking a legitimate question. Crickets litter is the only litter we have ever had so we are learning.


Oh you don't sound snarky :gaptooth: I have kept them longer then 9 weeks but my customers pay "room & board" for that service. I had two that stayed until they were 6 months old but I prefer not to do that. It is a much longer adjustment period when they move to their new home. These two males were great around my goats, chickens, and horses, but they went to live on a farm where they were going to be with cattle. They had never even seen one. 
If I get a new LGD, I like them young so that they bond with my livestock quicker. That's just been my experience. And, either way, until they are over a year or even two year old, they are still pups and can get in trouble. 
And of course, the cost does fit into it. When you are starting a dozen pups on puppy food, you go through a lot of food. And, then there are the shots. The longer I keep them, the more shots I have to give.


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Oh no I hope your not reading anything I said as a snit! I'm honestly looking for the same information you seem to be looking for. I posted some numbers in my first about my dogs but just so it is more consise

I paid $50 for a 12 week great pyr pup from my neighbor. I only got him for $50 because I am a neighbor~ the rest of his litter sold for $150 at 12 weeks old, no papers, no genetic tests, first and second shots done, raised in pasture with goats no poultry. I think that was very fair for him.

I paid $450 for Cricket a 8 week old Anatolian~ papered, no genetic tests, good pedigree, first shots done, from working parents raised in pasture with goats, no poultry.

I put more money into both those dogs~ shots, heartworm and flea/tick preventions, neuter for Tater hip xray and certification for Cricket.

I paid $400 for stud fee to breed Cricket to papered working Anatolian stud with a good pedigree and unrelated to Cricket.

I'm raising the puppies in pasture with Cricket and Tater teaching them. The goats and the poultry are in with them~ the cows and horses will be allowed in when the puppies are a little faster to avoid big hooves. The puppies are going to be 6 weeks this weekend and they will get thier first shots and I'll start advertising them more.

Now~ I'm interested in costs because I think what I paid for both my dogs was fair and I'm very pleased with them. My only concern is I had a HORRIBLE time teaching them to leave the chickens alone and as I understand from others thats because they were just too young and had not had enough time to learn from their mothers. Thats why I've been thinking leave them with Cricket 12 to 16 weeks instead of earlier. But I've never done this before and I really don't know what the "right" answer is. I know I need to get a bit more for puppies I'm spending another 2 months feeding~ but do they really benefit that much staying the extra time? Thats why I was asking how that works for you and your customers. I have all the experience of TWO dogs~ Tater and Cricket....I've got six adorable little bundles out there waiting for me to get serious about advertising them and finding them jobs!


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Goatress said:


> You guys that was the whole purpose of my starting this thread not to just post my .02 cents but to get feedback and input on pricing of dogs......why don't you guys be more specific by stating what you paid or will pay or ?????
> 
> In my world, the more time, shots, food, dewormings, 'training & exposure' I put into a pup, the more he is going to cost..... Finished dogs - that topic was touched on previously in this thread.....yes they go for more.....a 15 week old pup is not finished.....again, one guys' 'cheap' is another guys' 'expensive'. This is not written in stone..... _Your_ "cheap" $300 (in reference to my pups) may be another man's "out of my price league bucko".... I know it might be because I had people tell me it was.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry...I thought I did in page one of this thread.

For a breeding pup male..."meaning full size puppy" that will grow up to be huge and I can breed if I want...I paid 600.00 registered "can breed"....and I paid 350 registered for the runt "wont breed".

A female was 800.00

For the 600 dollar pup...I will get a 200 dollar rebate if I get him fixed.

I did a lot of research to find exactly what I wanted in LGD's. So I decided on maremmas. And they are hard to find.
GP's run for 200-400 dollars around here and are a dime a dozen. And most of my friends have gotten them free and it works out for them...However nothing works out for me unless I pay...it is what it is.

However in doing my research...I noticed if you purchase an LGD that is 2 years old and is trained to guard a multitude of animals...I've seen the cost go up to over 1600.oo dollars.
And to be quite frank...I have never seen too many if any Akbash dogs for sale in Texas. Mostly GP...So I would think that yours would be worth more.

People around here at least, think that a pit bull or a collie or whatever they have will protect the livestock...that's not to say "all"..but the ones who know better get LGD's and they are mostly GP's.

Oh and I dont sell pups...I got the boys for my livestock...and all comments or questions about them...I will refer them to the lady I bought them from in south Texas and Barefootfarm....they were the closet to me in Texas...and I felt I could trust...besides driving to Cali or Washington.

I didnt want a GP..because of their constant barking and escaping..and many breeders told me they would not except new members being added to the herd..weather it be family or livestock. Anatolion..I wasnt familar with the anatolins and I couldnt find someone reputable to disscuss them with.

Too much infor...sorry


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Fowler said:


> However in doing my research...I noticed if you purchase an LGD that is 2 years old and is trained to guard a multitude of animals...I've seen the cost go up to over 1600.oo dollars.


I don't understand that. I like puppies, young puppies. They bond to your home and your goats quickly and well. And with GP, the life expectancy is short anyway, so why would anyone wait to get an older dog, yet pay more? Guarding is instinctual more than training anyway. Maybe it is different with other breeds? 

I don't know anyone around here that purposely looks for an older dog.


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

mekasmom said:


> I don't understand that. I like puppies, young puppies. They bond to your home and your goats quickly and well. And with GP, the life expectancy is short anyway, so why would anyone wait to get an older dog, yet pay more? Guarding is instinctual more than training anyway. Maybe it is different with other breeds?
> 
> I don't know anyone around here that purposely looks for an older dog.


Correct..puppies have the natural instinct to guard..however if you are purchasing a puppy...you become their mentor..to show them what to do..such as ...."dont chase"..."dont bite" etc. Some people dont know how or are unwilling to put the time in and that's were you get them complaining..."he keeps killing my chickens"...or.." my LGD keeps getting out of the fence"...or.."how can I make them stop chewing on my goats ears"...so some are willing to pay more for something that is already trained to protect their livestock which cost more money. They could pay for a puppy and train it them themselves and some people have a guard dog already to show the puppies "what and what not" to do. I am NOT by far an expert on this subject...I am only repeating 3 yrs of my research on what I read thru the years, when I was considering an LGD, and how much I was willing to pay for what I wanted...and how much time I would have to comment to do it myself vs a shelter (SPCA) LGD vs an already trained LGD vs GP vs maremma's vs donkey, llama...etc.

But the reality is LGD's are not fully capable (mature) until around 18 months to 2 yrs. So in the meantime you still have a puppy that can reek havoc on chickens, etc., along with not being mature enough to protect themselves until they are older. This is why people are willing to pay more for a mature LGD.


----------



## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Oh no I hope your not reading anything I said as a snit! I'm honestly looking for the same information you seem to be looking for. I posted some numbers in my first about my dogs but just so it is more consise
> 
> I paid $50 for a 12 week great pyr pup from my neighbor. I only got him for $50 because I am a neighbor~ the rest of his litter sold for $150 at 12 weeks old, no papers, no genetic tests, first and second shots done, raised in pasture with goats no poultry. I think that was very fair for him.
> 
> ...


Oh not at all. Your questions are great. I think you will probably get all kinds of opinions and you'll figure out what will work best for you. I have found that poultry is the hardest for dogs to understand. And of course, chickens make it harder because they run screaming which only makes the pups more interested in catching them. Even at 16 weeks, the pups will not be ready to fully do their job. They still need supervision. I got my female when she was 10 weeks old and immediately put her in with my adult nannies. I did the same with my Male, who was probably 12 weeks old when I got him. Emma, my female, was a bit more stubborn when it came to chasing but it just took a little reinforcement on my part. I have 1 female that is almost a year old now that I kept from my last litter. She has been around the goats and chickens since birth BUT will still try to chase the chickens if given the opportunity. She is still a very large puppy. I will not fully trust her with the chickens for another year. 
Now that being said, I have trusted my male since I got him. He is different. Hard to explain but he prefers the livestock to people. And my nannies accepted him very well. I do have to introduce him to anything new that come to the farm because he knows exactly what belongs and what doesn't. 
The only advise I can give and this is a hard one because the pups are so darn cute, but handle them very, very little. They need to learn livestock not people. You want them to prefer to be with the livestock over you. Good luck!


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

hiddensprings said:


> The only advise I can give and this is a hard one because the pups are so darn cute, but handle them very, very little. They need to learn livestock not people. You want them to prefer to be with the livestock over you. Good luck!


Sadly for me~ not a problem. I had surgery to put pins in a broken hip 2 weeks before the puppies were born. I wasn't even allowed outside the first several weeks. Yesterday was the first day I went out to the pasture to see them~ and then I promptly fell down! Not in the pasture~ I fell off my front porch yesterday (Yes I feel like an idiot) so probably no more trips to the pasture until I'm a bit steadier. The puppies are getting socialized to humans when my son goes out to feed them and his girlfriend plays with them some~ but I'm the one who wants to play with the puppies and I cant! So they are not getting too attached to people~ if anything I'm afraid they are not getting enough human contact. When I was out there yesterday they were wary of me~ but finally 4 of them did come to me when I offered goat milk and puppy food bribe. 2 of them wouldn't come to me at all but my son assures me they come to him when he calls.


----------



## jersey girl (Nov 21, 2005)

To answer questions about what I am willing to pay, it depends on the dog and breeder. I would pay $1000 for a dog, but would have to really think about $2000. and probably wouldn't pay it. I do like to se the parents and watch them run, but I don't worry a lot about papers. I want a good working dog with good instincts, papered or not. My vet actually does not like to do hip tests unless necessary. He thinks the position the dog are put into after being sedated, can also cause hip problems. My only problem is getting dogs to me. I would be buying a few of Goattress dogs right now if I could get them to Ohio. I am buying one from her that I will drive when ready if I have to.


----------



## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Hello!
I like this thread. Really gives a perspective on the market. 
I would have to say that the LGD market is a whole different beast than say the family pet one. Guess being a working dog, their worth seems to be a functional one. Just as if hireing someone to come build fence for you. Going cost of labor drives the market.

One curosity is that I have seen little post on the value or effectiveness of a dog with regards to what losses they might be preventing. I raise Exotic birds and fowl. After many years of running Pyrenees with 90% success, I soon realized that the 10% was crippling me with losses. They pyrenees were 100% effective except for 1-2 times a year when the coyote wolf hybrids in my area would build up pack strength and come in for a raid. The FIX,,,,, $4,000 for a pair of Kangals! About caused a divorce, but stopped $5,000-$10,000 yearly losses. So for 7 years without a single loss, they were worth it. 
So to put it into perspective, I would not pay more than I had to for an average type dog. But if the dog could keep me from having losses, his value would be based on the amount to be saved. 

The other thing that seems odd to me is that people seem by far more willing to lay down big bucks for a family pet. Give them a toy poodle or lazy mastiff, and the price seems of less importance. I imported some Boz Shepherds over, as they do and will make LGD's that are UNEQUALLED in their abilities to protect against the largest predators. 
And although they are gathering much interest, little of it is from LGD people. I have a 7 month old female. My waiting list is at 22 pups. People from China, Denmark, Spain, Italy, Greece, Mexico, Canada and in the USA are on the list. But so far,,,, all for family or estate guardians. They are selling in Europe for $3,000-$15,000 for pups, and $15,000-$80,000 for Adults or Champions. So sadly, a supreme LGD being introduced to the world will see little livestock. I guess I could hold them for the LGD placements, but economics and reality will at least for now prevent me from doing this. People are lining up to pay $2,000-$4,000 per pup, wanting to send in deposits 8 months to a 1.5 years in advance. With this interest, I have to say that spending hours advertising them for LGD's, and dealing with the politics and attacks by other breeders seems less attractive.

Not blaming anyone for not being willing to pay more for a LGD. Economics are a part of all farming and ranching business. Reality is that a person has to get the most function for the cost. And for the most part, the cheaper more common LGD's are usually functional. Just my perspective. Hope I did not upset anyone, as it is not my intention.


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

I had better start saving my pennies now for a Boz , huh Brian ?? hehe

We lost over 50 chickens last year to coyotes plus a few turkeys . This past winter they started after our goats and sheep ,we had to keep them in the barn 24/7 until spring .

I am so excited for our Kangal and Maremma to grow and do their job. I can now leave my animals out , plus my children can play outside without me having to be on guard for coyotes (which our neighbor just had a 'yote staring at her family thru the sliding glass doors on her back deck , during the middle of the day !) .

Worth every cent to me . Plus I get a wonderful friend/partner in my LGD's too !


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

Oh ,and I payed $300 for our Maremma pup . She is a sweetheart and guarding already , but if I had to do over again ,I would have waited and got another Kangal .


----------



## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Amy, I truely hope your Kangal proves to be the dog you want. I like the Kangal, because they seem to be able to include everything into their area of protection. They are good people dogs, and will protect everything in your domain. All out of LOVE for you. I would be glad to work with you on a Boz, as You are a great person that loves their dogs. 

Back to my other post, if the value of the dog is corelated to the value of what they are protecting, it only makes sense that we would be willing to pay more for a dog that will protect our family. Because although I love my farm and fowl, my family is my life.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

MonsterMalak said:


> Hello!
> I like this thread. Really gives a perspective on the market.
> I would have to say that the LGD market is a whole different beast than say the family pet one. Guess being a working dog, their worth seems to be a functional one. Just as if hireing someone to come build fence for you. Going cost of labor drives the market.
> 
> ...


Hi Brian, and I am glad you spoke up and chimed in on this thread, as you can see I was just trying to get people's opinions and input and find out where I sat in all this.....

I guess with LGDs it does boil down to economics. I will pay good money for a dog if it stops something from killing $10,000 worth of stock. I do agree, the pet/estate protection/personal protection market is a different ball game and people are more willing to shell out more money. Sure many of those people are rich and dropping five grand on a dog is nothing to them. I do understand how a rancher would balk at that. Which is why I shake my head at the person back East marketing a Spanish Mastiff puppy as a goat guard for five grand...dream on.....! Mine will be $800 to working homes, and $1500 for pet/family guardian/protection....that is more in line with what people will pay I think. Same with my Pyrenean Mastiffs. The Boz will be more probably, simply due to their rareness. Brian as you know there are only five in the US - you have three I have one and the guy in MT has one.
About as rare as it comes....

I do have issues with some potential customers who call me crying about their stock losses, then hem and haw when I say a good coming 15 week old pup out of proven working parents is $300 and they back out! (I'm referring to Elk, 1/2 Kangal pup I have had sold three times but no one ever came through with the money or expected me to drive half way to meet them thus using over $100 in diesel. He will be a $1500 dog someday hands down, already showing me that, so I have decided to keep him - besides he will be enormous, and add to my gene pool someday.) Guess it is all relative.


----------



## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

I have heard so many times that "Why should I buy a dog when people give them away for free". And this mentality would make perfect sense if a person just wanted a family pet. 
But when needing a working breed, you need a dog that has been selected for thousands of years for a JOB. Would be no different than expecting to hire a highschool boy to build you a house, instead of bringing in a carpenter.

But I do have to agree that there are many of the more common LGD breeds avaliable. And if your farms predator dynamics can be controlled by one of these, it is basic economics. But if your area is under high pressure, large predators, or the value of your stock is to high to risk,,,,, then consider a dog that has enhanced abilities.
Be it a dog that will run the coyotes down to eliminate them, as opposed to a dog that will just stand there and bark at them. Or a dog that could kill a wolf or mountain lion if needed. 
Here is an article that gives a perspective on the Predator / LGD situation;
http://www.lordsofnature.org/documents/LivestockProtectionDogs.pdf
(And no i do not want to kill all the predators, but realize predators will avoid injury or death if a REAL threat exist to them) Actually in areas of the world that utilize LGD's, the predators have not been exterminated like in most other areas. LGD's are actually a predators better alternative. Sorry, I get tired of people that try to make it sound as if we are trying to eliminate wolves, lions, coyotes with our dogs. Not realizing that nature works with systems of respect. And the one that LGD's utilize is that smaller predators avoid larger predators. It is a natural system.

Sorry, got off subject!!!!


----------



## Nicole Irene (Jun 12, 2011)

We bought our first LGD about a month ago. We purchased a Pyr/Akbash mix from a working goat farm north of us. He was 8 weeks old, no shots, no certs; we found him on Craigslist in the farm section. They were asking $300, but we offered $200. When they had a buyer flake, we got our pup for $200. 

We are a small hobby farm on 5 acres and we purchased our pup because we were starting to lose smaller critters to a neighboring fox. Coyotes will come through, but not too often. We are in the valley, so we don't have any other predators. 

We would have only purchased a puppy, as we have 2 other dogs. We needed our LGD to accept the other dogs (one is a young cocker spaniel and the other is 13 years old and doesn't get around very well). We do need to train him ("No Kitty!") and we probably are not staying completely true to his "job" (he currently sleeps in the garage with the other dogs, though it opens to the back acreage), but I think things will work out fine. We don't have large areas to guard, so him being up front likely won't be an issue. Also, we wanted him to be a family dog, as well. So, he is very much loved on by us and our kids. 

We would not pay more, simply because our hobby farm has broken the budget.  Our cost will go into food and care, as opposed to the upfront fee. 

We live on the outskirts of Sacramento, CA. 

Here is the little stinker after finding where I just planted a flower...


----------

