# Let's Talk Old & Foreign Canning Methods



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Just for fun, let's talk about older canning methods and how it was done in older days. It would also be interesting if we could provide links or information on how canning is done in other countries. 

This thread is for interesting discussion only (no one is advocating any methods) so there will be no nay-sayers allowed. :happy0035:


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm hoping susieM comes along to tell us about how they can in France. I remember he saying once that if we saw how they did it there, we'd never be afraid to can again..lol.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Very cool I can not wait to see the replies!


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

In the tropics of Africa, they use the heat to dry foods, use a combination of smoking and and drying, or salting, they use herbs and spices in fermenting foods. The heat speeds up the drying time as well as shorter times for fermenting foods.
They utilize the methods that are best for their type of climate along with the kinds of foods they have.


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

This is scary, er, I mean interesting. It is from 1673, I believe. It's not "canning", it's a method of "potting". Works on the same principle that if you exlude air, the product is preserved.

http://www.vintagerecipes.net/books/queenlikecloset/to_bake_venison_or_mutton_to_k.php


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

suitcase_sally said:


> This is scary, er, I mean interesting. It is from 1673, I believe. It's not "canning", it's a method of "potting". Works on the same principle that if you exlude air, the product is preserved.
> 
> http://www.vintagerecipes.net/books/queenlikecloset/to_bake_venison_or_mutton_to_k.php


WOW- LOL- I bookmarked the site to look thru later!


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## Guest (May 5, 2011)

I can remember my grandma making jellies and jams and pouring hot paraffin wax on top of it instead of a regular lid like we use now.


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

Pickled, Potted, and Canned: How the Art and Science of Food Preserving Changed the World by Sue Shephard.

I read this book a few years ago & it was very informative. The author covers food preservation from the time of the Egyptains (honey & drying) to just after WW2 if I remember right. There is also an extensive bibliography. 
This book isn't so much about exact recipes but how methods came to be & how these methods changed the world. Canning was due to a contest sponsored by Napolean so he could feed his troops.
One method that she talked about that has stayed with me was the reason why Europeans perfer there game meat to have a more aged taste. The aquired taste was due to peasants having to hide game that had been killed ilegally on the kings land. Much like how french cooking evolved. Spices & herbs hide the past it's prime taste.

Another method was to stretch a cleaned cow's stomach across the opening of crocks/containers then secure with twine. 

It's a good book I should check it out of the library again. 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Someone gave me a recipe from Europe to "grease pack" sausage patties, hamburger patties, etc, into sterile jars, pour hot grease over them then put on the lid and let it seal. I was always to afraid to try it, but she said she grew up doing it that way. People do butter that way, and it works out fine.
I actually pressure can my butter for about 20min, but most people just do it in hot jars, then let it seal.


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

zong said:


> I can remember my grandma making jellies and jams and pouring hot paraffin wax on top of it instead of a regular lid like we use now.


That's how I always did it when I first started!
And if any mold appeared, we'd just spoon it off and eat the rest.

I remember my mother always using a pressure canner.
She's 84 now.
When I see her this weekend, I must ask her about her mother's canning methods.

I know they kept barrels of assorted foods in their cellar....and some of it got pretty "ripe" by the time they ate it:smack


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

Pelenaka said:


> Spices & herbs hide the past it's prime taste.
> 
> ~~ pelenaka ~~


Yikes-----I never liked highly spiced foods~~~~~~~~and now I'll be liking them even less!


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Wow. That venison/mutton recipe is ... ummm... interesting. 

In the victorian farming series they used the crocks with the stomach (or some other membrane...) stretched over the top.


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

Karen would the old reheating a dish like stew once every day to kill off bacteria count as an old time food preservation method?

Pease porridge cold, pease porridge hot, pease porridge in a pot nine days old.


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933392592

Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning: Traditional Techniques Using Salt, Oil, Sugar, Alcohol, Vinegar, Drying, Cold Storage, and Lactic Fermentation [Paperback]

Lots of old stuff in this book too. Just bought it last week.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

I have the same book TnHermit mentions, interesting reading!

This isn't exactly canning, but is an old method of food preservation, hope it's okay to add this. I thought it sounded pretty interesting (although kind of gross, lol) and is a good insight to how they managed before canning was available. Sorry, it's pretty long. It comes from a cookbook available for download as a PDF file if anyone wants it, however, it's 28 MB in size (188 pages): http://digital.lib.msu.edu/projects/cookbooks/books/virginiahousewife/virg.pdf

Excerpt from &#8220;The Virginia Housewife or Methodical Cook&#8221; by Mrs. Mary Randolph
Published in Baltimore by Plaskitt & Cugle in 1838

Directions for Curing Beef

Prepare your brine in the middle of October, after the following manner: Get a thirty-gallon cask, take out one head, drive in the bung, and put some pitch on it to prevent leaking. See that the cask is quite tight and clean. Put into it one pound of saltpetre powdered, fifteen quarts of salt and fifteen gallons of cold water. Stir it frequently until dissolved. Throw over the cask a thick cloth to keep out the dust; look at it often and take off the scum. These proportions have been accurately ascertained &#8211; fifteen gallons of cold water will exactly hold, in solution, fifteen quarts of good clean Liverpool salt and one pound of saltpetre. This brine will be strong enough to bear up an egg. If more salt is added, it will fall to the bottom without strengthening the brine, the water already being saturated. This brine will cure all the beef with a private family can use in the course of the winter and requires nothing more to be done to it except occasionally skimming the dross that rises. It must be kept in a cool, dry place.

For salting your beef, get a molasses hogshead and saw it in two, that the beef may have space to lie on. Bore some holes in the bottom of these tubs and raise them on one side about an inch, that the bloody brine may run off. Be sure that your beef is newly killed. Rub each piece very well with good Liverpool salt &#8211; a vast deal depends upon rubbing the salt into every part &#8211; it is unnecessary to put saltpetre on it; sprinkle a good deal of salt on the bottom of the tub. When the beef is well salted, lay it in the tub and be sure you put the fleshy side downward. Put a great deal of salt on your beef after it is packed in the tub. This protects it from animals who might eat it, if they could smell it, and does not waste the salt, for the beef can only dissolve a certain portion. You must let the beef lie in salt ten days, then take it out, brush off the salt and wipe it with a damp cloth. Put it in the brine with a bit of board and weight it to keep it under.

In about ten days it will look red and be fit for the table, but it will be red much sooner when the brine becomes older. The best time to begin to salt beef is the latter end of October, if the weather be cool, and from that time have it in succession. When your beef is taken out of the tub, stir the salt about to dry, that it may be ready for the next pieces. Tongues are cured in the same manner.

To Dry Beef For Summer Use

The best pieces for this purpose are the thin briskets or that part of the plate which is farthest from the shoulder of the animal, the round and rib pieces which are commonly used for roasting. These should not be cut with long ribs, and the back-bones must be sawed off as close as possible, that the piece may lay flat in the dish. About the middle of February, select your beef from an animal well fatted with corn and which when killed will weight one hundred and fifty per quarter &#8211; large oxen are always coarse. Salt the pieces as directed, let them lie for a fortnight, then put them in brine, where they must remain three weeks. Take them out at the end of the time, wipe them quite dry, rub them over with bran, and hang them in a cool, dry and if possible dark place, that the flies may not get to them. They must be suspended and not allowed to touch anything. It will be necessary, in the course of the summer, to look the over occasionally and, after a long wet season, to lay them in the sun a few hours. Your tongues may be dried in the same manner. Make a little hole in the root, run a twine through it and suspend it.

These dried meats must be put in a good quantity of water to soak the night before they are used. In boiling, it is absolutely necessary to have a large quantity of water to put the beef in while the water is cold, to boil steadily, skimming the pot, until the bones are ready to fall out and, if a tongue, til the skin peels off with perfect ease. The skin must also be taken from the beef. The housekeeper who will buy good ox beef and follow these directions exactly may be assured of always having delicious beef on her table. 

Ancient prejudice has established a notion that meat killed in the decrease of the moon will draw up when cooked. The true cause of this shrinking maybe found in the old age of the animal or in its diseased state at the time of killing. The best age is from three to five years. Few persons are aware of the injury they sustain by eating the flesh of diseased animals. None but the Jewish butchers, who are paid exclusively for it, attend to this important circumstance. The best rule for judging that I have been able to discover is the colour of the fat. When the fat of beef is a high shade of yellow, I reject it. If the fat of veal, mutton, lamb, or pork have the slightest tinge of yellow, I avoid it as diseased. The same rule holds good when applied to poultry.

To Corn Beef in Hot Weather

Take a piece of thin brisket or plate, cut out the ribs nicely, rub it on both sides well with two large spoonsful of pounded saltpetre. Pour on it a gill of molasses and a quart of salt and rub them both in. Put it in a vessel just large enough to hold it, but not tight, for the bloody brine must run off as it makes or the meat will spoil. Let it be well covered, top, bottom and sides, with the molasses and salt. In four days, you may boil it, tied up in a cloth with the salt about it. When done, take the skin off nicely and serve it up. If you have an ice-house or refrigerator, it will be best to keep it there. A fillet or breast of veal and a leg or rack of mutton are excellent done in the same way.

The book Pelenaka mentioned is also available to read online if you Google it (the link was way too long to post, sorry)

I, too, hope Susie shows up to talk about France's methods, but she's had her hand slapped so many times it's doubtful. :shrug:


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

tallpines said:


> That's how I always did it when I first started!
> And if any mold appeared, we'd just spoon it off and eat the rest.


Me too. There was also this huge controversey back then as to whether you should put a thin layer of paraffin on top or a thicker layer.

Then came filling the jars with rings and lids and turning them upside down. Now water bathing them. I've been through 3 ways already..LOL!



Pelenaka said:


> Karen would the old reheating a dish like stew once every day to kill off bacteria count as an old time food preservation method?
> 
> Pease porridge cold, pease porridge hot, pease porridge in a pot nine days old.
> 
> ...


I remember my Mom doing that; then when I had a wood cookstove several years back, I just kept a pot of soup on the back burner and would keep adding any leftovers to it. I don't think that pot ever stopped all winter long.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Karen said:


> Me too. There was also this huge controversey back then as to whether you should put a thin layer of paraffin on top or a thicker layer.
> 
> Then came filling the jars with rings and lids and turning them upside down. Now water bathing them. I've been through 3 ways already..LOL!
> 
> ...


Really? like never putting the pot in the fridge?
I keep my butter out and my SIL freaks LOL- I could totally see me keeping a stew pot on the back burner all winter long!


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

This is off topic, but I just wanted to say to Becka I am sorry for misunderstanding you.

We used to tighten the rings down tight. There was a wrench, too.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Lucy said:


> This is off topic, but I just wanted to say to Becka I am sorry for misunderstanding you.
> 
> We used to tighten the rings down tight. There was a wrench, too.


:ashamed: I am sorry I made you feel that way! Thank you though for apologizing- back at you though- I was referring to a woman I worked with - Honestly


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Group hug! :grouphug:


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Becka03 said:


> Really? like never putting the pot in the fridge?
> I keep my butter out and my SIL freaks LOL- I could totally see me keeping a stew pot on the back burner all winter long!


Yep, really! 

BTW, I keep my butter out all the time too, except for in the summer, then I use a butter bell to keep it from going too soft. Nowdays, there's so much salt in butter that I don't see how it could go bad, unless someone doesn't use much butter.

A friend of mine claims you also do not have to refrigerate ketsup, mustard, worchestshire, and hot sauce. Makes sense I guess with all the salt and vinegar, but I keep mine in the frig. Funny how some things bother me and other things don't. I guess it's what you're use to growing up.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Karen said:


> I use a butter bell to keep it from going too soft


I have to ask.... What is a butter bell? I just keep mine in a butter stick holder on the table or in the jar (if canned) on the table with the salt/pepper/honey


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

Some of those things don't need to be refrigerated per se, but they do ferment if left out too long. I have a friend who left her ketchup out and it exploded. 
It is best to refrigerate those high acid foods for quality. It will extend the shelf life. 

A butter bell is a dish with another one underneath that is filled with cold water. It is too keep the butter cold. I have heard some put ice in the bottom. 
Butter can be kept out at room temp. for a week or so, but it can get rancid. You need to change the water at least every 3 days in a butter bell. You start with cold butter for it to work. Cut up a cube, then soften just enough to mash into the butter bell. 
The Butter bell helps keep it still soft enough to eat, yet keeps it colder than room temp.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Here is some interesting stuff Radio Fish posted in the 55 gal drum thread

http://www.omick.net/food_preservation/food_preservation.htm


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Lucy said:


> A butter bell is a dish with another one underneath that is filled with cold water. It is too keep the butter cold. I have heard some put ice in the bottom.
> Butter can be kept out at room temp. for a week or so, but it can get rancid. You need to change the water at least every 3 days in a butter bell. You start with cold butter for it to work. Cut up a cube, then soften just enough to mash into the butter bell.
> The Butter bell helps keep it still soft enough to eat, yet keeps it colder than room temp.


Thanks so much. I've never heard of one or seen one. We must be "hillbilly" folks around here because everyone I know just keeps it in a butter tray.


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

Just got home from visiting my 84 year old mother.
I ask her about HER mother's canning methods.

Back in the 1920's her mother canned EVERYTHING in a hot water bath----includung chicken, beef, heart, tongue and lots of garden veggies......

And NO! No one ever got sick ot died!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Both my grandmas canned everything in a HotWater Bath. It was just for a longer period of time. And they used the old blue jars, even 2q jars with those old lids. They all lived through it.

And I LOVE the link TNhermit posted. Those drying trays bring back wonderful memories to me. We always dried so many things on the picnic tables every year with either cheese cloth or old screen over them to keep birds and insects out. We had HUGE tables that grandpa had built out of recycled boards from old building he tore down. And they were covered from one end to the other with foods drying. They had 2 tables about 12' long each and then a couple of regular sized ones too. They dried so many things, even jerky on them. It's a good memory.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

tallpines said:


> Just got home from visiting my 84 year old mother.
> I ask her about HER mother's canning methods.
> 
> Back in the 1920's her mother canned EVERYTHING in a hot water bath----includung chicken, beef, heart, tongue and lots of garden veggies......
> ...


This is something I don't understand. I keep wondering if just because it's _possible_ to get sick, does it mean you will? Years ago no one did ever get sick, let alone die from canned foods, and even the canning jars and general aesthetics weren't anything as good as we have today.

In fact, I can still remember people using the bail and wire jars. I know in Europe, they still do. So what changed or did it really? 

But then again, I can remember my grandma stuffing the turkey the night before Thanksgiving, or leaving leftovers out all day after holiday meals where everyone just 'picked' at them all day or made a sandwich later on, etc. How about leaving meat out on the counter to thaw, and so forth.

With all the 'danger Will Robinson' alerts, why are we not all dead by now? Just lucky??? I don't think so. I know a whole lot of_ VERY _unlucky people who aren't dead yet. 

Then there's all this cancer stuff or mystery illnesses today. Makes you wonder which times in history has actually been better for us? Ever wonder if we're getting too sterile and perhaps losing our natural immunities?


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

Been talking with someone in England about canning. I was not aware that they did not sell pressure canners over there. I guess I just asumed that a practice that had been around for so long was done in other countries.


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

_Years ago no one did ever get sick, let alone die from canned foods, and even the canning jars and general aesthetics weren't anything as good as we have today._

Years ago I had an elderly man tell me this after his wife had given me her daily list of ailments which if it had been written would have been longer than I was tall. He told me that back when he was a kid people felt much worse they just didn't complain about it.

So I am of the opinon that yes people got a sick stomach occasionally from something they ate that was home canned but they just didn't dwell on it. 
And yes after a while natural immunities took over which is why when I was a kid my mother could feed us things that I could never nor could feed my children.


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

Calliemoonbeam, thank you for that interesting post. The method described is exactly how those prized southern Country hams are produced. The saltpeter is used to kill botulism that might be present. That method is still used today.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks Sally! I was beginning to think I was the only one who found it at all interesting! I'm such a food geek, lol, I just love reading about old recipes, food preservation techniques, how things started and how they changed over the years. I have tons of old cookbooks in print and on the computer, dating back to the 1700s, I find them fascinating reading!


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## Prickle (May 9, 2009)

Karen said:


> Years ago no one did ever get sick, let alone die from canned foods, and even the canning jars and general aesthetics weren't anything as good as we have today.


But they did. There are old newspaper articles about whole families being wiped out by food poisoning and people getting sick at picnics, etc. 

They didn't have the kind of information distribution system that we have today. Most people would not have known about the incidents unless they read the paper that day and it was even more unlikely that they would have heard about it the next town over.

Even just two or three years ago there was a case of a woman and her daughter who ended up in the hospital in critical condition from eating improperly home canned green beans. There are botulism incidences every year in the Amish/Mennonite community too, not just from canning but from things like sour dough starter. It's something that you don't often hear about, but it happens.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

suitcase_sally said:


> Calliemoonbeam, thank you for that interesting post. The method described is exactly how those prized southern Country hams are produced. The saltpeter is used to kill botulism that might be present. That method is still used today.


The Amish still use this for preserving meats. They sell it at their grocery here, and when I asked about it, the lady was happy to share how they cure their meat and preserve it using saltpeter as an ingredient.
We just picked up 10lbs of the pork a couple of weeks ago, and it's good.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Prickle said:


> There are *botulism* incidences every year in the Amish/Mennonite community too, not just from canning but from things like *sour dough starter*. It's something that you don't often hear about, but it happens.


Okay, I'll grant you the canning issues (I don't buy anything jarred from Amish but, then again, I don't eat OP's kitchen gifts either) and I'll admit I've tasted my "raw" SD starter but I'm still alive. How the heck can botulism live in bread that is baked in a hot oven?


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## Prickle (May 9, 2009)

It's the raw starter not the bread.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Prickle said:


> It's the raw starter not the bread.


So I'm not the only one who tastes this nasty stuff? Cool! I'm not weird....


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## Prickle (May 9, 2009)

And if the bread is made by hand the starter would be handled while kneading the dough....then touch your nose, touch your mouth, touch other stuff that someone else might touch.....


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Prickle said:


> But they did. There are old newspaper articles about whole families being wiped out by food poisoning and people getting sick at picnics, etc.
> 
> They didn't have the kind of information distribution system that we have today. Most people would not have known about the incidents unless they read the paper that day and it was even more unlikely that they would have heard about it the next town over.
> 
> Even just two or three years ago there was a case of a woman and her daughter who ended up in the hospital in critical condition from eating improperly home canned green beans. There are botulism incidences every year in the Amish/Mennonite community too, not just from canning but from things like sour dough starter. It's something that you don't often hear about, but it happens.


With regards to food poisoning in back in the old days, it would be more likely to have food poisoning from where the food came from, how long it sat out before canning it, the cleanliness of preparing it, how much time went by between opening the jar and actually eating the contents, was the jar completely sealed when opened, etc., etc. -- than from home canning. 

With regards to the Amish family, it was discussed in another thread that since 2001, there has only been 6 cases of _any type _of illness, with only 1 of those being a death associated with home canned foods (interestingly, most cases were from home canned mushrooms). 

On the other hand, there were thousands of cases related to commercially canned or prepared foods. 

It's also interesting that modern home canning methods are not scientifically based, rather _research based _(theories). Meaning, it's theory that any different approach to canning could cause illness or death. No where will any modern home canning methods tell you (including the Ball Bluebook or the USDA) that doing it any other way will result in illness. They simply say '_could_' result in illness - because it's theory, not fact and they have no idea if those methods are, in fact, any better. Only that it 'seems' reasonable.


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

This is an interesting read from across the pond that has to do with "bottllng" canning. The whole site is pretty interesting.

http://www.allotment.org.uk/allotment_foods/index.php


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## kenworth (Feb 12, 2011)

I wonder what studies have been done comparing the beneficial bacteria we have in out gut today compared to days gone by? 

I know my Asian friends can eat food prepared in such a way that would have me pleading to be excused from the table.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Just Cliff said:


> This is an interesting read from across the pond that has to do with "bottllng" canning. The whole site is pretty interesting.
> 
> http://www.allotment.org.uk/allotment_foods/index.php


The oven canning method must have been more common in Europe then? That's probably where the idea for the oven canned butter comes from. I didn't realize people canned that way for many foods. The whole site has interesting things in it.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

Looks like a great site Cliff, thanks! I'm working right now, but saved it to read later.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Karen said:


> With regards to the Amish family, it was discussed in another thread that since 2001, there has only been 6 cases of _any type _of illness, with only 1 of those being a death associated with home canned foods (interestingly, most cases were from home canned mushrooms).


With mushrooms you always wonder if it could simply be the fact that they were mushrooms too. Some are deadly, so there is always the risk that somebody simply picked the wrong type of mushroom/toadstool. I was at the hospital ER one year (broken ankle), and a teenage girl was also there who was deathly ill, vomiting blood and just really, really sick. I felt sorry for her. They took her by helicopter from the small "country" hospital we were at to a larger one. Her Mom and Dad were also ill and vomiting, but not as bad as she was. They had eaten the wrong type of mushrooms, and apparently she had just eaten a lot more than they did.
My husband becomes ill from the deep fried morels, even though those are safe to eat. It might just be something about the fungus itself that bothers some people.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> With mushrooms you always wonder if it could simply be the fact that they were mushrooms too. Some are deadly, so there is always the risk that somebody simply picked the wrong type of mushroom/toadstool. I was at the hospital ER one year (broken ankle), and a teenage girl was also there who was deathly ill, vomiting blood and just really, really sick. I felt sorry for her. They took her by helicopter from the small "country" hospital we were at to a larger one. Her Mom and Dad were also ill and vomiting, but not as bad as she was. They had eaten the wrong type of mushrooms, and apparently she had just eaten a lot more than they did.
> My husband becomes ill from the deep fried morels, even though those are safe to eat. It might just be something about the fungus itself that bothers some people.


I thought about that too, plus since muchrooms come from and produce spores, I often wonder if some of those spores are never killed in home processing.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

kenworth said:


> I wonder what studies have been done comparing the beneficial bacteria we have in out gut today compared to days gone by?
> 
> I know my Asian friends can eat food prepared in such a way that would have me pleading to be excused from the table.


That's what I wonder too. In days-gone-by, people weren't as clean and disinfected like they are today. They only took baths once a week, didn't have antibiotic soaps, cleaners, etc. Now days, we go into a panic if someone doesn't bath everyday, has dirt under their fingernails, or god help us have natural oils left in their hair. Years ago, dirt under fingernails showed you weren't lazy and worked for a living. It was the mark of a responsible person. 

Considering how antibodies change, it would make sense if we disinfect ourselves to the point of being germ free all our life, then there would be no need for many of the natural antibodies humans once had.

So that bring up another point. Science is telling us it is better to be germ free, but is it really? Virus and germs are mutating to the point of resistance. Will we perhaps end up doing ourselves in because we put too much faith into the _science_ of health; including canning?


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's an interesting article about food preservation and cooking in Argentina:

http://www.escapefromamerica.com/2011/04/preserving-and-cooking-food-in-argentina/


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I love this sentence from SueMc's link-
"""Before we moved here I had only the haziest notion of what canning and bottling actually were &#8211; an impression mostly gleaned from novels set in rural America! """

America seen as the quaint canning pioneer capital of the world. I love it. 

The quince and cream cheese mixture sounds good too.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

My mother always cooked the heck out anything even from cans. I always thought vegetables were mushy, green-gray things. This was they way she was taught to keep her family safe.
So a lot of the food people ate was cooked to death as a safety thing.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Love this blog from Australia, her canning methods run along the same lines as the UK. 
http://down---to---earth.blogspot.com/

And if you ever have the opportunity to get Home Farmer magazine from the UK, it's full of great info and canning methods that they use.

I seriously think that we are overwhelmed with needing to live in a perfect world, which has resulted in lawsuits and laws that are just over the top. So that affects our canning methods. I would also think that if there were hundreds of deaths from these canning methods in other countries that nowadays we WOULD hear about it. What we hear about are the large corporations who have to do recalls because of tainted food. No home canners.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Granny Miller has the grease packing method (crocking) on her website today with pictures. It is so interesting. Another lady told me all about it once, and it is common in Europe. I have never done it, but it looks easy.
http://homesteadgardenandpantry.com/non-electric/potting-or-crocking-meat/


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## Gladrags (Jul 13, 2010)

I have a cookbook from 1923 or thereabouts, in the "preserving food" chapter, most of the recipes go like this:

Mix ingredients together
Pour into hot jar
Seal

I'll have to dig the book out and post a couple of the recipes. 


tallpines said:


> Back in the 1920's her mother canned EVERYTHING in a hot water bath----includung chicken, beef, heart, tongue and lots of garden veggies


My grandmother canned everything in a water bath as well, including chickens and rabbits.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

I still put my last dabs of jam (too lazy to make jelly) into the old jelly glasses and pour in a thin layer of wax. Too much wax and it shrinks. But I put in in the fridge to keep and use it first. My dad remembers eating "barrel beef", he said it got pretty rank but that people were just used to it. He was shocked when he came back from WWII and found his folks eating butter that tasted rancid to him, but they thought it was just fine.



Karen said:


> Me too. There was also this huge controversey back then as to whether you should put a thin layer of paraffin on top or a thicker layer.
> 
> Then came filling the jars with rings and lids and turning them upside down. Now water bathing them. I've been through 3 ways already..LOL!
> 
> ...


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Callie, I'm with you all the way. Thanks for that link, what a fascinating book! I got curious about what the '49er's of California's gold rush really ate and found another interesting read: Bacon, Beans and Gallantines: Food and Foodways on the Westen Mining Frontier by Joseph Conlin. It's really amazing how early it was that people depended on bottled and canned foods, or as the old miners said, "airtights".


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

belladulcinea said:


> Love this blog from Australia, her canning methods run along the same lines as the UK.
> http://down---to---earth.blogspot.com/


She "oven cans" too. That's so interesting. I had never heard about that method other than the websites on canning butter. Apparently it is very common throughout the world. Neither of my grandmothers did it, but they both had woodstoves, which may have been the reason. Or perhaps it was just never that popular in the US.


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## thelendleys (Jun 2, 2004)

I am very much enjoying this thread. I am enjoying canning things that I've never canned before such as peas, butter, and milk... I am wanting to learn some of the "older" ways of canning because I like some in the thread have mentioned wonder about the "resistant germs and virus" that we have growing. and think it has something to do with "us" becoming an over germaphobic nation. Also wonder what the USDA's real agenda is since they allow pink slim in ground beef without having to put it on labels. But they can tell us how "NOT TO" can things at home on things that they haven't officially "tested"

OKAY sorry for the rant. 

Brandy


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

They do have pressure canners in Britain, I have a friend that lives there that has one.

Has anyone heard of the method of salting down pole beans? 

TNhermit....that sounds like an interesting book. Does it mention salting down vegetables?


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Our Little Farm said:


> They do have pressure canners in Britain, I have a friend that lives there that has one.
> 
> Has anyone heard of the method of salting down pole beans?
> 
> TNhermit....that sounds like an interesting book. Does it mention salting down vegetables?


Have to look. but I think so. There is always sauerkraut an things like that which were done. Have to look. Been a few months since I've read it.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

I salted down some beans 3 yrs ago and am planning on getting them tested!


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Was just thinking had a friend from southern Ohio that use to pickle corn. nastiest stuff I ever ate. Must be like scotch


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

thelendleys said:


> Also wonder what the USDA's real agenda is since they allow pink slim in ground beef without having to put it on labels. But they can tell us how "NOT TO" can things at home on things that they haven't officially "tested"
> 
> Brandy


You have the mind of a conspiracy theorist! LOL I wonder about those things too. Sometimes I just wonder if it is more about $$$ for big ag than anything else. And it's sad because there are so many good people with good hearts and the best of intentions who work for health dept, and other government agencies that teach these things, and really, really believe them too. It's strange because you hear all these rules about "you can't do this, you can't do that, it will make you sick, people die from it....." I do all the can't dos all the time with no bad results. I waterbath canned veggies for decades with no ill effects, so I really don't believe the fear that the USDA spreads about it. I canned butter too, and live to tell about it.

And the thing is that once the convince people "you can't do it that way", all they have to do is take pressure canners off the market for some supposed safety concern or another, then people wouldn't be able to can at home at all. Control the food, control the people? Maybe I have conspiracy theorist thoughts too. LOL


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

You can count me as a conspiracy theorist also, but based on facts. Ever notice that it is always the USDA or canning companies that are changing the rules and dishing out the warnings and "can't do's". It's never doctors, scientist, or people who's gotten sick. Not even the CDC. Now doesn't that make you wonder???


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

yes, it makes me wonder.


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

Sorry you mistrust me ! I do my best..... 
It is the USDA and Ball that do all the testing, so that is why the recommendations come from them. The CDC and other places can just report outbreaks of things, etc.
Got an update on the lady I know of here who has botulism. She is still on a ventilator. Improved some, but still not good. This is from her improperly canned green beans. Been in the hospital for a couple months now. She can speak a little.


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## judylou (Jun 19, 2009)

Actually the majority of the staff at NCHFP who do all the testing and write the USDA Guidelines are scientists.

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/project_team.html


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Was it that the green beans were improperly canned or she didn't prepare them properly after they were opened? Brought to a boil? Or eaten out of the jar? Was this lady a longtime canner?

Dmil was an avid canner, quickest way to get your hand smacked was to try and eat something that hadn't been boiled first! And she talked some about people who got sick, but she said when you talked to the family, they would say that so and so must have eaten out of the jar as they had all eaten the same thing and didn't get sick.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Lucy said:


> Sorry you mistrust me !


Not you, Lucy. Big government, big business, big ag, etc. You are one of the people with good hearts and the best intentions that work for them. You teach what you are taught. It's not you that I feel distrust about. I know you are telling the truth the way you see it. It's just that I always wonder about the information they give you to hand out and WHY suddenly after centuries this information is being pushed so hard now. It's very obvious just from historic evidence that canned goods don't kill people as often as they suggest it does. If it did our ancestors would have all been gone before we were conceived. Years ago, everyone water bath canned all veggies, all meats, etc. yet lived through it.

Tell us about your botulism lady. What did she do wrong to the canned good they assume she caught this from? I don't doubt that people can get ill from poorly canned items. But if it is done right, I do doubt it can happen as easily as some say it will.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

judylou said:


> Actually the majority of the staff at NCHFP who do all the testing and write the USDA Guidelines are scientists.
> 
> http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/project_team.html


Who work for the USDA. The NCHFP itself was established and is funded by the USDA. It's right on their homepage:
"The Center was established with funding from the Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture (CSREES-USDA) to address food safety concerns for those who practice and teach home food preservation and processing methods."​
So in other words, it is _*not*_ an independent organization and is *not* conducting non-biased studies. It's all one government USDA/Extension Service conglomerate. It's the government testing and educating the government. 

Plus, the original project ended in 2005. Since then, they're pretty much dead in the water other than re-circulating the same old stuff. They haven't even updated their website since _at least _2010 (it could even be much earlier than that since they only mention what they "planned" to do up to 2010). Plus since the project ended in 2005, the only thing they are doing is listed below, but there are no updates on whether they did them or what they are doing now:

developing, implementing and evaluating 4 additional website-based self-study course modules; 

conducting applied laboratory research on refrigerator dill pickles and canned tomato-based salsas; and, 

developing, implementing and evaluating an undergraduate college course about home food preservation.
Gee, I know I feel much better knowing they have my back! LOL! :run:


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

One last thing, as pointed out in another thread, the USDA does not conduct scientific studies in canning. They compare other research (usually not even their own) and apply it as 'theory'. 

Plus the project that ended in 2005 by the NCHFP was not a scientific project. It did not use the specific scientific method nor was it conducted by scientists. 

A PHD does not make one a scientist. It just means they hold a doctorate degree. The website doesn't even say what their degrees are in and many are professors of that Georgia University. For all we know, their degree _could_ be in education - not in a scientific field, because they all teach USDA type courses. There are none shown as chemists, medical doctors, research specialists, etc.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

TNHermit said:


> Was just thinking had a friend from southern Ohio that use to pickle corn. nastiest stuff I ever ate. Must be like scotch


Around here between friends they call that moonshine. To the legal authorities it's insisted that it's _only_ 'pickled corn'. :rotfl:


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Karen said:


> So in other words, it is _*not*_ an independent organization and is *not* conducting non-biased studies. It's all one government USDA/Extension Service conglomerate. It's the government testing and educating the government.
> 
> Plus, the original project ended in 2005. Since then, they're pretty much dead in the water other than re-circulating the same old stuff. They haven't even updated their website since _at least _2010 (it could even be much earlier than that since they only mention what they "planned" to do up to 2010).


So do you feel there is a "motive" behind the information they send out? Is it just to keep people safe? Is it to actually discourage easy canning techniques that have been used for the last 2 centuries? Is it simply to promote and sell newer, more expensive canners? Is it to scare people in order to discourage canning thereby increasing sales of processed foods to benefit big ag, big business? Is there really any motive at all? And do those people, or at least the "higher ups" really believe the messages they send out?
I know the "little people" in the organization do believe everything that is said. Their motive is really to help keep people safe. I just wonder if there could be another agenda at the top.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Karen said:


> Around here between friends they call that moonshine. To the legal authorities it's insisted that it's _only_ 'pickled corn'. :rotfl:


after all--You can't tax pickled corn.


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I grew up eating home canned foods (I'm now 50 and one of the younger kids). So did all 11 of us kids, green beans, tomatoes, corn, pickles. If my mom's parents could get it to grow in the garden, it was canned/frozen to be eaten later.

I never saw Granny doing the canning, but I'm pretty sure I heard a tale or two about the canner "blowing up" and food all over the ceiling, so I assume she pressure canned some of it. I know when I first started canning, my Mom told me to stick with tomatoes, fruit and pickles, but stay way for the other veggies until I learned more about canning. My mother never canned anything - but she did make jam and jelly sealed with wax. 

Mom actaully hated gardening and putting up produce and we got all our canned goods from Granny - who had a huge garden until she got too old to handle it. My mom talked about being required to help in the garden and put things up, and how she hated that and vowed she's never make her own kids to that. 

I didn't find out I love gardening until I was over 30 - and by then Granny was gone. (sometimes I imagine her "watching" and hope she's proud of the grandaughter with a 6,000 sq foot garden and a full pantry of home raised food).

But back to the point - We were NEVER to eat certain veggies cold out of the jar. Mom tells of the time she had a jar of green beans sitting out, my older brother ate some and she hauled him to the Dr's and they pumped his stomach . So I expect she was taught a certain amount of food safety from her parents.

One a side note, my Mother's grandfather was one of the first Dr.s in the small community. He had a practice out of his home. He also was an active gardener and passed that along to his son, who married a woman with like tendencies. 

My Dad told us that Mom's folks were considered kind of eccentric - if there was a patch of vacant ground in town, they would see about renting it to grow more food (this would have been in the 30's) 

I don't recall them ever canning meat of any kind.

When Mom and Dad were first married, they lived on the farm with Dad's parents. My mom has talked about how appauled she was about her MIL's lack of food care - she said it seemed that someone (they had live -in farm help along with the extended family) always had the "stomach flu" and she was sure it was due to food posioning more often than not. Mom said she was glad when they moved to town and SHE got control of the kitchen. 

I figure my Mom learned a lot about food safety because her GrandDad was the local Dr and he probably saw quite a bit. 

While I'm not into having the Government tell me what is safe or not, I think way too many people do not want to take personal responsiblity for thier actions - most people do things without having a clue about the risks, or what they are attempting to do when they can. 

Though from my experince - there are way more things the Gov says are "safe" that I won't touch than things the Gov says are "unsafe" that I'm willing to deal with.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> I know the "little people" in the organization do believe everything that is said. Their motive is really to help keep people safe. I just wonder if there could be another agenda at the top.


I feel certain the little guys do think they are doing a good thing; but only because they have fallen into the throngs of believing what they've been taught by the big guys. They are so focused on 'saving a life' that they don't realize they are part of a manipulation (by someone they trust) and there's no lives that need saving to begin with. 

I think if people would just take a step back, open up their minds, and look at the facts, they would see it as it is. It isn't government paranoia, there is some pretty indisputable facts and red flags that all is not how it appears and there wasn't a whole lot wrong with how it was all done in the first place. 

Modernizing canning I can understand and would welcome with open arms. Even if they would say, "_some_ evidence suggests this may be a better and safer way to do it", would be more than acceptable; but using untrue scare tactics by telling us we *must* to do it their way or we'll all going to die, is something else entirely. 

What's the agenda? I'm not exactly sure, perhaps the answer is all-the-above. I would not be very surprised to find out it's all bigger than even the conspiracy theorists could dream up. It most certainly is about money and control.


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## Ellen West (Sep 17, 2010)

There's already a sticky for no more canning debates - let's not kill this interesting subject with conspiracy theories. :yawn:

So, what about that thing of growing fruit inside a bottle? Then you put your likker in and seal it up. I've seen pictures of it, but never in real life. Anyone ever done that or even had a bottle come under their hands?


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## tnyardfarmer (Mar 22, 2011)

Years ago when I was stationed in Germany I drove passed a grove of trees with bottles stuck on the limbs. I stopped and bought 2 bottles of some strange alcoholic beverage. There was a full grown, unpeeled pear in each bottle. No matter how hard I looked I could not find a seam on the bottle to suggest that the pears were added to the bottles after being picked. I brought them back to the states and gave them to family members who drank the contents but had no idea about what to do with the pear.


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

Ellen West said:


> There's already a sticky for no more canning debates - let's not kill this interesting subject with conspiracy theories. :yawn:
> 
> So, what about that thing of growing fruit inside a bottle? Then you put your likker in and seal it up. I've seen pictures of it, but never in real life. Anyone ever done that or even had a bottle come under their hands?


Thank you, Ellen West for getting back to the subject. 
I have seen them put the bottles over the tiny pears and then let them grow in the bottles. Really a fun idea, I think. 
I do want to answer the question, though. 
The lady with botulism, as far as I know, did them in the BWB canner, not a pressure canner. She is almost 80 years old. In her late 70's. Been canning this way for many years. I don't know how well she heated them before eating them. All I know is she is still on the respirator, can hardly talk and she can write a little bit. Other than that she is bedridden. It is just the most recent case of botulism I know of. The one before that was a few years ago, not too far from where I live. It was the nurse and her 2 small children that had botulism from green beans, as well.


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## Ellen West (Sep 17, 2010)

I think the liquor you put in with the pear pretty much extracts whatever's good from the pear. (That's what what happened to my brandied cherry plums anyway - good hooch, mooshy plums, but they were still pretty tasty over ice cream.)


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Oh thank you for mentioning the brandied fruit. I haven't done that in years and years and, in fact, have forgotten all about it for some reason! Putting that on my to-do list. Love it on ice cream too. It's also good on angel food or pound cake. Well, actually it's good on anything!

I've never seen the fruit growing in bottles, but I've seen pictures of it. I always wonder how the sun shining through those bottles don't 'cook' the fruit. Must be in cooler climates?


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

This isn't really preserving, but I do like making my own vanilla extract with vodka and vanilla beans. I got bulk vanilla beans online, so they were not very expensive at all.


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

Pear brandy ( Poire William) is what is contained in those bottles with the pear . I have tried to put the bottles on the branches when the fruit first starts There is not a high success rate. Looks neat when it works though


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Vickie44 said:


> Pear brandy ( Poire William) is what is contained in those bottles with the pear . I have tried to put the bottles on the branches when the fruit first starts There is not a high success rate. Looks neat when it works though


I have an apple that I grew in a bottle 20+ years ago. Did a number of them and all success. Failure may have been that the bottle has to be in a paper bag to prevent heat from cooking it.

Martin


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Here is a CD with 24 books from late 1800 early 1900 on food preservation
(Not mine )
http://cgi.ebay.com/24books-Home-Ca...&itu=UCC&otn=5&ps=63&clkid=204218636316558919


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## emeraldcowgirl (May 23, 2011)

suitcase_sally said:


> This is scary, er, I mean interesting. It is from 1673, I believe. It's not "canning", it's a method of "potting". Works on the same principle that if you exlude air, the product is preserved.
> 
> http://www.vintagerecipes.net/books/queenlikecloset/to_bake_venison_or_mutton_to_k.php


Awesome website! Thanks for posting this.


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## emeraldcowgirl (May 23, 2011)

TNHermit said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933392592
> 
> Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning: Traditional Techniques Using Salt, Oil, Sugar, Alcohol, Vinegar, Drying, Cold Storage, and Lactic Fermentation [Paperback]
> 
> Lots of old stuff in this book too. Just bought it last week.


Just got added to my reading list! :grin:


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

TNHermit said:


> Here is a CD with 24 books from late 1800 early 1900 on food preservation
> (Not mine )
> http://cgi.ebay.com/24books-Home-Ca...&itu=UCC&otn=5&ps=63&clkid=204218636316558919


Yes, but instead of paying them almost $10 for the CD, you can look them up and download them yourself for free off the internet. Here's the first one on the list: http://www.archive.org/details/homefarmfoodpres00cruerich

Just paste the title and year into a Google search and add "pdf" after it. I've found this method to be almost 100% foolproof for finding all the "Books on CDs" for sale on eBay. Of course if your time is more important than money, it is easy to just order the CD and have them already there. I prefer to find them myself.  But thanks TNH!

P.S. There is a lot of good information in these old books (at least I think so, lol), and I just love exploring them...not enough hours in the day!


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## Ellen West (Sep 17, 2010)

Vintagerecipes.net is a great site, thanks Suitcase Sally!
I was plugging it into my historic food sources file and thought you guys might be interested in this one: foodtimeline.org - it runs down when food products were put on the market, fascinating stuff for us food geeks.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

Ellen, the time line site is a good one. I discovered it probably 10 years ago when I was researching medieval foods for a Renaissance wedding feast.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

The Chinese started making flavored Ice back 3000 BC which was the beginning of Ice Cream. And they had recipes for making homemade icecream in the 1700s. I didn't know that. I love the food timeline site.


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## Ellen West (Sep 17, 2010)

I knew I read about salted beans somewhere, this is from The Cookin' Woman by Florence Irwin (1949), a book of Ulster recipes. She worked in Co. Down as the Instructress of Domestic Economy from 1905 to 1915, when she collected the contents of this book. (Died in belfast at the age of 82 in 1965.)

Method: Have a dish of well dried kitchen salt and a small crock and lid. Pick the beans on a dry day. Don't wash them. String them and cut into diamonds. Cover the bottom of the crock with salt and a layer of beans, then another layer of salt, and press well and continue until the crock is full, adding the beans as they ripen. They sink somewhat so you will find the crock holds more than you expected. The top layer must be salt to completely cover the beans.
To Use: Take from the crock what beans you require. Place in a collander and run the cold tap on them until well washed. Then soak 1-2 hours with 1 tablespoon vinegar in the water and wash again. Put into boiling water and boil until tender. Drain. Add a piece of margarine to them in the vegetable dish. Serve at once.



Our Little Farm said:


> They do have pressure canners in Britain, I have a friend that lives there that has one.
> 
> Has anyone heard of the method of salting down pole beans?
> 
> TNhermit....that sounds like an interesting book. Does it mention salting down vegetables?


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

That is the way I did it. Mine are several years old now, so time to take them to be tested.

Appreciate you finding that Ellen! :dance:


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## WildernesFamily (Mar 11, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> She "oven cans" too. That's so interesting. I had never heard about that method other than the websites on canning butter. Apparently it is very common throughout the world. Neither of my grandmothers did it, but they both had woodstoves, which may have been the reason. Or perhaps it was just never that popular in the US.


I have a friend here who oven cans. She even does green beans that way. I've eaten them and lived to tell the tale. Very interesting. That's how her mother taught her, and that's how she's taught her kids.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Are the salted beans like dehydrated?


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

No. Fresh going in and after rinsing and cooking, taste fresh.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

WildernesFamily said:


> I have a friend here who oven cans. She even does green beans that way. I've eaten them and lived to tell the tale. Very interesting. That's how her mother taught her, and that's how she's taught her kids.


That's really interesting. I use to WBC my green beans for 4hours in quarts since I was a teen. That was a lot of yeas of boiling beans. It would have been easier to use the oven. Now since I have pressure canners, I just stick them raw into jars, add a couple of raw slices of bacon, cover with water and pinch of salt, then process for 90min. We don't actually eat the bacon when they are opened because it's mushy, but the fat gives such a nice flavor, and you don't have to cook the beans first, just stem them. It's just easier, and I am all for easy.

So, she cooks them first? Then simply puts them in sterile jars and uses the oven to seal the jars? I wonder how long she leaves them in there. 
Or does she can them raw without cooking them first? 

This is such an interesting subject.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Our Little Farm said:


> No. Fresh going in and after rinsing and cooking, taste fresh.


Wow! How long can you keep them?


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## IowaLez (Mar 6, 2006)

The actual water bath canning method before pressure cooking was available, was not to cook it for a longer time in the water bath at one time. My 1915 home canning book, a leading book of it's time - and I fought over it on Ebay to get it - has exact directions of the accepted method of that time.

They would bath the jars for one hour, then cool it to room temperature for 24 hrs. This makes the botchulism spores hatch. After the 24 hours are up, you once again boil the jar for an hour. This kills the newly hatched spores. Now cool the jar again for 24 hours, and more spores hatch. Boil the jar for an hour a third time and you are done. Supposedly all the spores are now dead and your food is safe. The heating and cooling periods are the key - it triggers the spores to come to life.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

IowaLez said:


> The heating and cooling periods are the key - it triggers the spores to come to life.


Was this for meat?


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

There are only four outcomes to improperly canned food. (1) You open the jar and it smells/looks bad and you throw it away. (2) The food looks and smells OK but has been infected by a nasty bacteria/mold other than Botulism so you eat it and get an upset stomach or the green apple quick step. (3) The food has been infected by Botulism bacteria and is full of botulism toxin which has no taste or odor. If you heat the food to boiling and let it simmer for 10 minutes the botulism toxin breaks down and the food will not kill you. Do not lick the lid or the spoon because botulism toxin is more potent than any snake venom and a trace will kill you. (4)If it's got botulism and you eat the food without heating it and boiling for 10 minutes the botulism toxin will kill you. 

I have great faith in Chicken of the Sea Corp. and eat a lot of tuna saled sandwiches.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

I remember that my MomMom (great-grandmother) used to dip balls of (cold/frozen?) homemade butter in beeswax to keep them fresh in the root cellar, just like she dipped her hard cheese. Makes sense, commercial butter is still wrapped in waxed paper. 

She also canned *everything* in bail and gasket jars (BW for high-acids, and later PC for low-acids) until the day she died at the ripe age of 88 -- of natural causes completely unrelated to canned food poisoning. She also canned soups and stews with grains and noodles already in them, many with milk/cream/butter. She precooked any hard/dry beans because they "never came out right", but most grains or pasta she'd just dump dry and uncooked in the bottom of the jar before pouring the soup in and processing them in the pressure canner. I never noticed them feeling or tasting weird, never got sick eating them, and neither did anyone else in our extended family that I'm aware of... and I can pretty much guarantee that MomMom never reboiled a perfectly good can soup in her life 

The Alaska natives often salt-pack raw salmon in jars rather than heat-canning it (they say "ruining" it LOL). They also ferment the salmon heads in a hole in the ground... stink heads... not very appetizing to me, but it's a delicacy for them. And they sugar, brine, air-dry, cold-smoke and then jar that salmon as well. 

When canning "guidelines" first got introduced up here, lots of natives got botulism and other food poisoning because they started sealing their jars with impermeable lids like they were told. With their methods of preparing and preserving salmon, as long as the filets and jars are just wrapped/covered with paper, cloth or leather, they're perfectly fine to eat for several months; they won't produce botulism toxin unless they ARE sealed. Oops.

I lived in Germany when I was little, and we used to get all sorts of fermented pickles. Pretty much anything that grew in the cold, could be stuck in a crock for months with some salt or vinegar was served fermentation pickled over there! Cooked and quick pickles just don't have the same the flavor. I love real German kraut, but the funky stuff you can get in jars over here in the States is NOT real kraut!


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## Aseries (Feb 24, 2011)

You know, I watched a show with that dude Zimmerman on I think it was the Travel channel. I think its called Bizarre Foods, anyway he was in Morroco doing a show there. 

Looking at all the foods they eat, they let it sit out, hanging meat all day, no refrigeration, fermented intestines, fermented butter, and all kinds of bad things that the food Police in this country would ban, in order to get us to buy from food chains.

I wonder, yeah some things are for safety, but if you applied the food laws and standards in Morroco. I think they wouldnt be able to eat anything. I also think that according to the guidelines here, and safetly politically correct, over bearing dont do this, this temp, this bacteria, etc. Everyone in Morroco on that show should have died of Botulism.

I watch so many of his shows and think, something is wrong here. How come all over the world they can use ancient practices, and still continue to use them and no ones dying in the thousands. I think more people are dying from war and starvation than Botulism.

I hear people on here Pressure canning stuff and the food police, get all upset, the food police say this, they say you cant do that. It seems to me food safety also goes hand in had with big buisness. Yes, I agree safety issues are at hand, but you know what. I think alot of it doesnt take into account were becoming drones to the Food Police.

Its like raw milk, theres like a war going on against MILK. What the heck is wrong with America. There spending money arresting farmers because people might get sick from raw milk. How many 100s of years have people been drinking it. Not to mention, how about spending those dollars on SCHOOLS, how about spending those $$$ on something useful like healthcare.

We all have "unsafe food" practices but fact of the matter is, living is unsafe. I laugh everytime someone on here says you cant pressure can that, I bet if all of america pressure canned anything that was deemed unsafe, it would be deemed safe. I also bet that yeah like everything else a few people would probably die from it. Just like people die from 100000s of other things that are for more unsafe than food.

But back to that show, how does one ferment intestines in a camels spleen, with every bad part, and not worry about botulism. I think they know, no ones going to die, they have been doing it forever. I have lebanese friends whe make dishes that might kill us, they eat it all the time. None of there family in the last 60 plus years has ever gotten sick from the raw beef they use.

The other part that makes me laugh is, I know someone who died from it speech. I know someone who died from everything from driving to walking in the park, yet everyone on here still does those things. I hear it over and over in forums, everyone knows the family down the street who died of botulism. So everyone will follow the Ball blue book, yet the same logic doesnt apply to anything else, are most of everything else. I know over 2 dozen people who died in car wreck, I still drive.

I just wanted to rant, because I'm tired of all these people getting all in a tizzy because omg someone canned something that wasnt supposed to be canned. IF you want to be a "outlaw" canned enjoy it, if you dont so be it.. It makes me laugh, theres always some quote to some extention article telling you, oops nope cant can that....

I think of those articles and wonder, Morroco no fridge, meat out all day long, and all kinds of food violations. How come they arent dying like flies... How come the host of the show isnt dead, morbidly ill, or worse.... 

Enough of my rant.... I just love to rant, and no disrespect to the food police, your just doing your job, and no I'm not mad or angry, in fact I was laughing writing this, if you can believe that lol

have great day....


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Loved the rant Aseries! I right there with you 

Fermentation is such a great example... bad nasties can't grow in something when the good bugs are already beating them to the food source! But Americans are just so programmed to think the existence of any micro-organism in their food or environment automatically means instantaneous poisoning and a long agonizing death. It's crazy... makes me wonder what they're conveniently leaving out of high school Biology and Chemistry class these days!

And the aversion to mold... slays me! Some of the most wonderful and splendiferous foods in the world are all thanks to mold. Only a few food molds are toxic to humans anyway... once you know it's not one of those, just cut off the fuzz and munch away. Seriously - no way am I wasting a perfectly cured, brined, smoked and hung ham or sausage (or perfectly aged cheese) just cuz it's got a tiny bit of harmless fur on it.

The authorities and their hired believers tell you that something is bad... but they don't always tell you that it's only bad if it's present in the first, under certain conditions, at certain dosage levels, and for certain foods. Change one condition and what was evil is of no consequence. The try to shoehorn a one-size-fits-all solution by having processes that should address every possible bug all the time... whether that's an actual risk for the particular circumstance or not. Guess we're just not smart enough to figure out how and when to apply the precautions ourselves.

Now, I'm going to go eat a canned bacon sandwich with mayo I leave on the counter, a lovely glass of room temp raw milk, maybe some of that yogurt I made last week


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Aseries said:


> all kinds of bad things that the food Police in this country would ban, in order to get us to buy from food chains.


But if we aren't policed and forced to buy from the grocery chains, what would happen to big ag? The government has to work hard to keep big ag and big pharma profitable, along with big oil too.

I was talking to a guy just the other day while holding a slow/stop sign on the road for traffic control. He was telling me that the "gluten" so many of the ag company farmers are using is what is leftover when they make ethanol. He had a big truck going to pick up gluten for the farm, so I had to hold him back until some of the workers moved to give him a bigger space. Anyway, they feed that to cows, then send the cows to market. Isn't that gross? We are eating, and sometimes canning, bovine fed the leftovers from fuel production. And yet people whine because you grow, feed and hang your own pork or other meats? 

Home canners are told outright lies about how they will die unless they do ABC in that order because even though this use to be safe to do, now it is wrong. Yet the same government turns a blind eye to big ag and their practices? I think what has changed mostly when it comes to canning isn't the acidity level in tomatoes but rather the depth of manure being shoveled out and, unfortunately, believed. 

There will come a day when pressure canners, jars, etc are banned. I have no doubt in that. They will put out a bunch of crap about how dangerous homecanning is, so they are working to protect us by banning those products. It won't be in the next five years, but it will happen within the next 50. And that is exactly for the reason you mentioned.... to force consumers to buy everything from grocery chains.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

And they don't even consider that maybe those tomatoes aren't as acidic as they used to be because of their ag practices and breeding (or engineering!) the "perfect" industrial tomato for business goals. Or that the increase in contamination might be because of their ag practices and processing methods. No, it's us at home doing things wrong -- it has to be -- or it's those 3rd world countries that import our food, they just don't have good sanitation -- it can't possibly be THEM :smack


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

I do not like the direction which this thread has taken but our current gag rule prevents me from stating why. For certain, in view of this and a few other recent threads on this forum, I will cease recommending this forum to other gardeners. Instead, I will recommend that they NOT join or visit HT if looking for food preservation advice.

Martin


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

According to WHO, as quoted in this eMedicine article, over 50% of childhood deaths in under-developed countries is due to malnutrition, or complications arising from malnutrition.

Malnutrition/starvation is a horrible way to die in itself and it makes it more likely that you will contract other diseases and infections. So, perhaps, for people who do not have ready access to abundant fresh food or ample refrigeration, the possible risk of eating something tainted (fresh or preserved) is less important than the very real and very guaranteed risk of not eating anything.

Many of us forget that over half the world's population does not have access to an ample and continuous supply of wholesome fresh foods, refrigeration and climate-controlled storage. Some of those people are even right here in the US, in the Land of Plenty.

Throwing away perfectly good food because it *might* be tainted is wasteful. Not preserving food when you have access to it because it *might* be dangerous in certain circumstances is short-sighted. If catastrophe occurs, many who were once privileged with abundance and refrigeration will find themselves suddenly be without. That's why it pays to understand the risks and learn every available food storage technique -- not just the latest and greatest that rely on disposable items (or electricity) that may not always be available. 

Stocking up on preservation materials may be effective for some things that aren't readily available in your area (like salt and sugar), but not for things with a limited effective date (the sealing compound of unused conventional disposable canning lids -- 5 years).


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

I just made my first batch of Viili - a thick Scandinavian yogurt. OMG - sooo delicious and very thick and creamy. Viili is different than other yogurts because it a mesophilic culture and can be incubated at room temp rather than a thermophilic culture that requires heating. And it really thrives on cream, not just milk, so is a good way to use cream that hasn't soured the way you want for butter, etc (or to use up cream when you have _enough_ butter already LOL).


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

My SIL in the UK makes a lovely fermented fruit topping. It kind of works like sourdough or vinegar in that you have a "starter" and can keep a continuous batch going without refrigeration.

Her starter is from wild yeast, but she recommended this recipe: http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,1719,147172-249196,00.html


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Salted and dried fish (particularly salmon) is very popular here in Alaska among the natives. Salted and dried fish are a common ingredient in many international cuisines.

Here's the way my native neighbor does hers:

1. Fresh fish is bled, beheaded and filleted
2. Fillets are soaked in a heavy brine overnight
3. Fillets are hung to dry in the sun for several hours until "tacky" to the touch
4. Fillets are then packed in layers with coarse salt for several days, removing the fish from the salt and repack with fresh salt as more of the juices are extracted
5. When the fillets are nearly brittle, all salt is brushed off and the fish is hung in the sun again for a few hours before being stacked in loose bundles wrapped in fabric

The fish can be eaten as is (although really salty IMO) or soaked in several changes of cold fresh water. It keeps for several months if kept dry, and is often eaten uncooked even after soaking.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

That's not too far off from how country hams are made. Their never refrigerated either from the time the pig dies to the last of the meat is gone.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

Aseries said:


> I watch so many of his shows and think, something is wrong here. How come all over the world they can use ancient practices, and still continue to use them and no ones dying in the thousands.


Really very simple. Those people are exposed on a daily basis to the bugs that would kill the average American.

Think hygene and sanitation. We are brainwashed to think that cleanliness is the most important thing. One might catch something.

Know the old adage about "don't drink the water in Mexico"? Why? Because our systems have not been exposed to the bacteria that they consume everyday. Same applies to other countries, maybe not the water, but their food stuffs.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

For general information, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foodborne_illness

For worldwide info, http://smj.sma.org.sg/3702/3702ia2.pdf

For Andy Zimmern, http://barfblog.foodsafety.ksu.edu/barfblog/tag/andrew-zimmern

Nobody is immune in the most or least developed countries of the world. Life is merely less precious in some. 

Martin


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

I also think some just don't have the ability to afford foods like we do. How many eat from garbage dumps in Mexico ? Lots of children do there, to survive. Same in other countries. They are forced to just to get food at all. Who knows how many of them get sick on a regular basis ? 

Boy, I hope they don't outlaw home canners because I will be out of a job ! Right now my work load is greatly increasing. I can't keep up with the requests from places wanting classes. Local nurseries are the newest group to keep asking us to come and teach. Glad I am working towards retirement while I can. 

Martin, you gave some good links. I will read more when I get the chance.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Lucy said:


> I also think some just don't have the ability to afford foods like we do. How many eat from garbage dumps in Mexico ? Lots of children do there, to survive. Same in other countries. They are forced to just to get food at all. Who knows how many of them get sick on a regular basis ?


Not just other countries, but everyday right here in America.


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

Sad thing is here there is so much waste ! Just one deli or fast food restaurant could feed a lot of people with what they throw out. My friend worked in a deli. They would throw away whole, perfectly good chickens. I just do not understand it one bit. 
They could take them to the Salvation Army here where they feed the homeless daily. Not just single people homeless now, but whole families. It is the children going hungry that really bothers me. 
Then, the fruit that people let rot on their trees all over town is horrid. Can you imagine the amount of preserved fruit that would be ? 
Just totally wrong !


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Lucy said:


> Sad thing is here there is so much waste ! Just one deli or fast food restaurant could feed a lot of people with what they throw out. My friend worked in a deli. They would throw away whole, perfectly good chickens. I just do not understand it one bit.
> They could take them to the Salvation Army here where they feed the homeless daily. Not just single people homeless now, but whole families. It is the children going hungry that really bothers me.
> Then, the fruit that people let rot on their trees all over town is horrid. Can you imagine the amount of preserved fruit that would be ?
> Just totally wrong !


There is a liability issue too. A lot of businesses won't give away things when they reach the "best used by" date, simply because of the liability. But that doesn't mean the foods aren't still usable.

And, honestly, I think a lot of things are just done for reasons of greed too. Why give it away when you might be able to sell it. Some people would toss things out rather than share them. It's a character issue.


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

How well I know about both issues. Very sad state our country has come to be concerning those things . At least we can all do our little part and share with others. 
It all helps. 
I am looking into liability insurance. May free me up to be able to give more of this food away.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Lucy, I had similar noble aspirations about sharing my harvest with my neighbors since we're hours from the nearest grocery store. Then I looked up the food laws in the state... oy!! Unless it's produce that I don't process in any way (not even shucking corn), the regulations and mandates are totally insane. And that _giving_ the food away, not even trying to sell it... if I process it, my butt's in the sling. It's a darned shame. Luckily, I can still give a lot of my surplus to the native council, because they're a sovereign nation they don't have to abide by the regs and are just happy to have good food to distribute at potlatch to their members who subsist below poverty level.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Karen said:


> That's not too far off from how country hams are made. Their never refrigerated either from the time the pig dies to the last of the meat is gone.


We'll be doing our own hams that way too, as well as cold smoking them and the bacon (along with some dry fish, poultry and various sausages). I'm wondering if there's a way to use a similar method with a deboned moose roast... a whole roast takes up nearly a third of our tiny chest freezer.


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## Lucy (May 15, 2006)

What about canning the roast ?


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

We do can up most of the moose, including most of the meat on the other leg, but we serve one roast for our neighborhood Christmas dinner so it's needs to stay a slicing roast... I'd have to can it in a 3 gallon bucket


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## Jan in CO (May 10, 2002)

I skipped a couple pages of the posts, so forgive me if this was mentioned already. I saw a couple steam canners for sale at a church thrift shop a couple years ago, one was brand new and both were $5 each. I was tempted to get them for resale, but knew I'd be selling something that isn't recommended. Just last month, in an ad for IFA in Utah, they had brand new STEAM CANNER kits for sale. I wondered if the advice from USDA had changed, but still see it as not recommended on their site. Hmmm. My aunt still cans everything by water bath, but doesn't do meat. She does do low acid veggies, tho, which worries me.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Jan - smart call not buying the steam canner for your retail products. You most likely wouldn't have been able to get license to sell your processed goods using a method that hasn't been approved by the USDA (rightly or wrongly), and doing so may risk any permits you have already obtained. Each state has slightly different regulations for intrastate sales of processed foods, so check with yours to see where they stand on the issue.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

During the The Crimean war, when canned food was a new idea, a ship arrived loaded with large cans of meat for starving soldiers.

When they opened the cans, the meat was rotten. Up till then they had used the same method on smaller cans and jars with good results. Canning was pretty much abandoned for a long time using large cans until someone figured out, they were cooking the large cans the same length of time they were cooking the small ones, and that was the cause of the rotten meat on the ships.

The first canned food was in champagne bottles, when napoleon offered a large cash prize of 12,000 francs for a new better way to preserve food for his troops. Nicolas Appert won the prize after stuffing food in the bottles and boiling them, inventing the "cold pack" method of canning.

From 1812 when cans were invented to 1855, tin cans were not very popular because they were so hard to open. It took us 43 years to invent the can opener.

The first bottle, served to Napoleon himself to approve the winner was Chicken Marengo.

In hindsight we instantly think "well duh, they didn't boil the cans long enough". History is funny that way.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Back in the day folks didn't know exactly what caused spoilage like we do now. 

Interestingly enough, research shows many spoilage organisms aren't toxic to humans even when you eat the spoiled food (and many are desirable -- cheese, yogurt, etc). In many cases, it's the byproduct of the food breakdown that gives you the trots, not the actual bacteria. But that's just taking too a big chance unless you know what beasties are currently growing in there -- unless you absolutely MUST eat or die.

This is why so many foreign cuisines are so heavily spiced or covered in sauces... to cover up that something might be just a little "off".


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

Well not exactly, most foreign foods are cooked with fresher stuff than we have. Spices were used in Europe to cover the taint of mid winter off meat, but after the industrial revolution, the spices in food has become just for the flavor.

A lot of food around the world is intentionally prepped to go off for the flavor. Vietnamese fish sauce is a stank you never get out of your brain. They love it. It's liquified rotten fish.

But they don't spice it to cover what might be off. The rest of the world has refrigeration too ya know. 

Foreign foods aren't spoiled, they are just gross to begin with.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Well, of course nowadays the spices and sauces aren't to cover up the taint, but the cuisine and taste for it came from those beginnings in many cases 

And yes, purposely rotten/spoiled foods (fermentation & cultivation), is known in every cuisine worldwide... including ours in the US.

Kimchi, sauerkraut, cheese, yogurt, kefir, stinkheads and fish sauce... all very yummy to some, but definitely an acquired taste!!


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

It makes ya wonder, how do you properly store something like fish sauce... it's already rotten.
lol
Does it have a "sell by" date, and why?
HA!


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

I store mine in the pantry, along with all my other condiments, vinegars and oils. I think keeping it cool and out of direct sunlight is all that's required to maintain "freshness".

Some "pre-rotten" foods will never go "bad" from bacterial spoilage, but they might go rancid or lose flavor or become totally over-powering (we had some soy sauce like that!!)... so that's probably why they have a sell or use-by date on them, for "best results".

Of course some of the modern foods that go by the same name are not actually fermented the same as the real thing, which would make them subject to spoilage because there's not the right bacterial competition going on anymore to keep it shelf-stable... or it's full of preservatives and other chemicals (Velvetta anyone?).


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## Caren (Aug 4, 2005)

I happened across this thread and found it facinating! I am hoping that by bumping it more information can be added!


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

zong said:


> I can remember my grandma making jellies and jams and pouring hot paraffin wax on top of it instead of a regular lid like we use now.



My mom made grape and strawberry jelly this way 

My great uncle made 'potted' sausage.

I ate plenty of both, and I'm still here


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## Caren (Aug 4, 2005)

We always sealed our jam and jelly with wax. I didn't die either! I still use the inversion method for jam and jelly. I open kettle tomatoes after adding lemon juice to the jars.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

what a great thread! I am pretty new to canning. I have done acidic foods in the past, but just started pressure canning last year. I did some venison first....it was delicious and we are still enjoying the last of it. I will pressure can a lot more venison this year.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Jan in CO said:


> My aunt still cans everything by water bath, but doesn't do meat. She does do low acid veggies, tho, which worries me.


I used a WBC for 30 yrs on corn, gr beans, peas, etc and lived to tell about it. It was how I learned. I watched my family and grandparents do the same thing. The pressure canner is much faster, but I honestly wouldn't be afraid to use my old WBC again if it came to it.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I did some venison first....it was delicious and we are still enjoying the last of it. I will pressure can a lot more venison this year.


Pressure canned meats are so convenient. I really like to run meat through the canner. And it is so much faster than the old WBC method too.


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## rancher1913 (Dec 5, 2008)

I need to really read this whole thread, and maybe print it. Sorry, y'all, I'm a little ticked today due to the issue on my CSA/canning thread.

Moldy


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

I like the canned meat, but when I open the jars they all have the same smell. Like canned tuna. Maybe its just me. My allergies have pretty much killed my sense of smell. Any one else notice that? Maybe I need to add some seasonings or maybe its the well the water?


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## Jeepgirl86 (May 18, 2012)

Be careful with the spices, they tend to get stronger with canning.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

zong said:


> I can remember my grandma making jellies and jams and pouring hot paraffin wax on top of it instead of a regular lid like we use now.


MIL says her mother would just tie a clean piece of cloth over the top of jelly & preserves, etc. She raised a huge family so I guess it worked!


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

mekasmom said:


> Someone gave me a recipe from Europe to "grease pack" sausage patties, hamburger patties, etc, into sterile jars, pour hot grease over them then put on the lid and let it seal. I was always to afraid to try it, but she said she grew up doing it that way. People do butter that way, and it works out fine.
> I actually pressure can my butter for about 20min, but most people just do it in hot jars, then let it seal.


That's how Granny canned pork at hog killing but she put it in the pressure cooker, too. Every one talks about how good sausage was canned that way. I don't know how long she pressured it but we're all still living.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

Karen said:


> Around here between friends they call that moonshine. To the legal authorities it's insisted that it's _only_ 'pickled corn'. :rotfl:


Well, Daddy used to "pickle corn" down in the holler by the spring!!


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

PlicketyCat said:


> My SIL in the UK makes a lovely fermented fruit topping. It kind of works like sourdough or vinegar in that you have a "starter" and can keep a continuous batch going without refrigeration.
> 
> Her starter is from wild yeast, but she recommended this recipe: Cooks.com - Recipe - Vintage Fruit Starter


My MIL used to make a cake that she kept a bowl of fruit stirred for so many days--it was fermented, I think drained & added to cake batter. This was in recent yrs. Has anybody else had it?


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