# 300 WSM. anyone hunt with one?



## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

Your advice or knowledge about a Savage Model 16 .300 WSM rifle?
Anyone use one of this caliber for deer? Is it a good 'all around' center fire large game rifle to have around? (thinking about black bear also).


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## RoyalOaksRanch (Nov 14, 2003)

A friend that goes hunting with us uses a 300 short mag for deer and gets his every year with no problems. I dont know much about them, but I can ask him the maker etc if youd like... My son now wants one too LOL As if his 7 mag isnt big enough :shrug: He is turning 13 this week..


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## mink (Feb 10, 2005)

why does everyone always think about a cannon........aim a little and save the bucks for the ammo.......anything over a 30-06 is way over kill.......hard to hit anything when you have to close both eyes before pulling the trigger...lol....mink


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## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

mink,
is 300 WMS a 'canon'? That's why I'm asking. It's a load that is used here for moose and deer as a combo sort of rifle. Is it a good long range rifle? I was interested in how people in the field used this and the loads they've tried for different game. :shrug: 
I know 7mmm mag, .308, 30/06 are popular here as well as .270


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## RoyalOaksRanch (Nov 14, 2003)

No its not a cannon.... Its an excellent gun for both elk, deer etc. My hubby shoots a 300 mag, his buddy uses the 300 short mag, Both guns are good for deer/elk combo hunting. Also bear, moose etc. 
Mink- "closing your eyes to shoot" is not how its done. Some people can handle bigger guns., Doesnt mean we cant AIM. means we happen to need a bigger caliber for what we are hunting. Everyone uses what works for them. 
And for your info... We bought the 300 mags, and the 300 short mags for 12.50 at the Sportsman Wearhouse. I dont call that expensive. My 25.06 bullets were 22.50...
Also on a side note.. Last year hubby shot ONE round and dropped the deer at 642 yards. Not possible if he closes his eyes... For the last 4 years running one bullet one deer.. 
The 300 mag is what my husband shoots long distance with. But what do you consider long distance? You looking at a 300 yard shot or a 1000 yard shot? We havent tested the 300 short but we are going to try it out soon too. Probably in a few weeks after we get back from WYoming. 
We are having the turet (sp) built for the 300 mag now, then the 300 short if his buddy decides to do it too.


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## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

ROR,
thanks for that useful info. 
I wouldn't ever take a shot probably over 300 yards, so if the 300 mag is good to go for that range, I'm glad to hear it. Wow, if you got a dear at 642 yards. That's amazing!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cartridge selection is largely personal preference. For Whitetail Deer anything from a 243 up will work at the ranges most people shoot. Mule deer and Elk CAN be killed with the smaller calibers but a 7mm or bigger would be preferred. Heavier bullets are also preferred for bear since they have thicker hides, more fat and a larger bone structure. The "Short Magnums" are just the latest reinvention of the wheel since there are many cartridges that are ballistic duplicates. Pick a rifle that FITS YOU well, at a recoil level you are confortable with, and it will do all you ever want a gun to do.

As for those "600 yd shots" they are usually either PURE LUCK or poor range estimation since even at 3200 FPS with a normal 200 yd zero a good 30 cal bullet will drop almost 5 feet at 600 yds. With a 10 MPH crosswind there would also be 2 feet of drift. Im my opinion shots shouldnt be taken at that range unless the animal is already wounded and its your only option. Google the ballistics charts on popular cartridges and youll see that theres not a lot of difference out to 3 or 4 hundred yds with many of them


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## RoyalOaksRanch (Nov 14, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> As for those "600 yd shots" they are usually either PURE LUCK or poor range estimation since even at 3200 FPS with a normal 200 yd zero a good 30 cal bullet will drop almost 5 feet at 600 yds. With a 10 MPH crosswind there would also be 2 feet of drift. Im my opinion shots shouldnt be taken at that range unless the animal is already wounded and its your only option. Google the ballistics charts on popular cartridges and youll see that theres not a lot of difference out to 3 or 4 hundred yds with many of them




  Luck has nothing to do with long range shooting. When shooting that distance you better know what your doing. We dont just point the gun in the air and hope the bullet lands where we want. With the proper equipment, meaning scope, range finder, etc, lots of pratice, and knowledge of the catridge loads, wind speed, speed your bullet is taveling, elevation, and a few other things, You CAN shoot 1000 yards. YOu ever hear of the Best of the West series? Check it out sometime.. THey are on the "Mens" channel sometimes if you happen to have satelite. Here is a link to them-- 
http://www.thebestofthewest.net/howtoshoot.htm

Long Distance shooting is not for everyone. It takes skill, dedication, and lots of practise, not to mention quite a bit of money. 
For one the equipment is a tad different than most people have. THe scope we have is designed for long range shooting. Sure it looks like anyone elses, except a taller turret on top.. In your scope you probably have cross hairs. In ours we have extra lines to indicate further distances as well as dots for wind compenstation. Our first line may be at 300 yards, then the next goes 400, 500 and so on.. You use the line you need for the range you are shooting. Also you need a good range finder. Ours goes out 1700 yards. WE use top quality equipment, and have special turrets (that little knob at the top for adjusting your scope) made specially for what grain we are shooting, as well as more factors. Also when shooting at different elevations we have to use different turrets. ( Im probably spelling that wrong) 
With our current load the 300 mag is shooting at well over 3200 fps. yes we have the little machine that tells us that  We have to know the speed in order to figure how much drop we will have, So if we are shooting at 300 yards, then decide to shoot further out we know we need to move our scope say 3 clicks. or 6 or whatever depending on the range because we know how many inches it will drop. We were dropping 47 inches at 700 yards.. Which is actually less than your quote of 5 ft for 600 yards. 
Most people who dont understand what we do always say oh its luck, or people cant shoot at that range. Or no bullet can possible reach that far.. Fact is its not luck at all. Consistanly hitting a target at long range distances is not lucky at all. Its called skill. Not everone can do it. And not everyone should even try. But for those who want to and are interested in it Id suggest buying the 10 hour dvd set and watch it.. You will be amazed at what can be done. You will see true hunting on tape.. One is of a coyote killed at over 1000 yards with ONE shot. That isnt luck... that is skill. 
Think about it.. What do you think a sniper does? He takes all the facts, computes them into numbers then figures out how many clicks to adjust to the target and poof... one shoot one kill.. No different here...We use the same techniques. 
If you dont believe me that is okay  But Id suggest watching that series on TV or ordering the dvd's... You might find out that I am telling the truth  Heck you might find yourself wanting to try it out too


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

." Not everone can do it. And not everyone should even try"

Isnt that what I said?

Lots of guns are capable of long range performance on TARGETS. That doesnt mean its a responsible thing to do to shoot at a living animal at that distance no matter how much money you spend on fancy equipment. Allowing for wind drift is STILL guesswork no matter how many "dots" you have in your scope.. And even with trajectory compensating scopes youre STILL relying on mechanical devices that may or may not work right every time.

' We were dropping 47 inches at 700 yards.. Which is actually less than your quote of 5 ft for 600 yards.'

External ballistics is a science based on a lot of variables. The example I gave was for a 168 gr HPBT MATCH bullet at 3200 FPS, with a ballistic coefficient of .462 and a 200 yd zero. You can make the drop at any GIVEN range anything you want it to be by adjusting your ZERO range. There are NO adjustments for wind drift other than a pure guess at wind velocities 

Using the same bullet to get a 47 in drop at 700 yds youd have to be 13 inches high at 250 yds, which is MORE than enough to miss most anything. Watching people on TV and buying fancy equipment DOES NOT make the average person a better shot. The fact that some people do it doesnt make it the right thing to do. The animals deserve better.


"With our current load the 300 mag is shooting at well over 3200 fps. yes we have the little machine that tells us that We have to know the speed in order to figure how much drop we will have,"

If your getting "well over" 3200 fps with anything other than a light for caliber bullet then your probably shooting loads that are OVER maximum pressure. Most 150 gr bullets in a 300 mag only get about 3300 at most. Factory loads are slower. And anything lighter wont carry enough energy downrange to reliably kill large animals. That "little machine" is called a chronograph, and while it will tell you bullet speed, it WONT tell you when youve exceeded the maximum loads. And speed alone wont tell you the drop without knowing the ballistic coefficient of your particular bullet.

"Think about it.. What do you think a sniper does? He takes all the facts, computes them into numbers then figures out how many clicks to adjust to the target and poof... one shoot one kill.. No different here...We use the same techniques"

A REAL sniper's "technique" is to get as close as possible to ensure making a good shot. Miltary snipers are figuring on a target area 18 unches wide and 24 inches tall. None of this has anything to do with hunting game. 

" Most people who dont understand what we do always say oh its luck, or people cant shoot at that range. Or no bullet can possible reach that far.."

Dont assume that because I disagree that I dont understand shooting and ballistics. Save the long shots for the target range and learn to get closer to the animals


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## RoyalOaksRanch (Nov 14, 2003)

You are quite negative/sarcastic in your post. Fact is you claim its _ for those 600 yard shots they are usually pure luck or poor range estimate._. OR as you claim _we need to learn to get closer to the animal.._. ..And you try to explain away everything I mentioned as being wrong. I put it in laymens terms as best I could since not everyone who might read this knows what a chronograph is or what it does, but you make a point of acting like I have no clue what its called. THere is no need to try to make me look like some idiot just because you dont agree with what we do...You say _** Dont assume that because I disagree that I dont understand shooting and ballistics** _ Yet you are assuming I dont know what IM talking about. :shrug: And you seem bent on trying to prove that what we are doing isnt possible. THat its just "pure luck" Id rather let the facts speak for themselves. 
People will think what they want. Ive given a link to shows and a DVD series that will show people what IM talking about.. If someone wishes to check into to it then that is great, If not oh well, it doesnt matter to me. It is there for anyone to look at if they wish. Some might decide they want to try it, others may think its way beyond their ability or they just dont have a desire to do it. Either way it doesnt matter to me. The sun will still rise tomorrow and we will still be doing what we do. 
But your opinion is not fact. Nor is my opinion. I can say I think red roses are better than pink and give you 500 million reasons for it being true, but it still is just MY opinion. It doesnt change the fact that a rose is a rose no matter what its color and thank goodness we have so many choices so that everyone can find something to make them happy  So we can all have roses and all think that our rose is the best...  
You say _***youre STILL relying on mechanical devices that may or may not work right every time.*** _ Any equipment can fail at any time. No matter if your shooting 10 yards or 1000 yards. How is our equipment more likely to fail than yours? If my range finder decides to not work then whats the worst that can happen? it wont put out a reading? Or it will blink?? Or the lights wont come on?? That just means we wont know the range therefore cant take a shot... Fairly simple. Because with long range shooting KNOWING your targets range is not a option its a requirement. 
You have every right to have your opinion. But opinions dont change facts. 
And the fact is, we are doing it, as well as other people too. There are competitions, there are meets, there are clubs etc. One club near us wont even let you shoot at their range until you have completed 3 tournaments at the 1000 yard range. Its a select group Not everyone is allowed to just go blasting away to see how far they can lob a bullet. It takes precisiuon, practise, dedication, accuracy, and good equipment. 
We arent the first ones to do this. THe guy that designed our turrets is the one who does the "best of the West" series. Talk to him, he will explain to you more. SHare your opinions with him..Hell tell you the same thing... It IS something you can do. 
He is also going to be designing us a new rifle and scope. And its not just "Fancy Equipment". We pay for precision and quality. Proper equipment is necessary no matter WHAT you are doing, wether its shooting long distance or hunting squirrels with a sotgun, or fishing in the oceon... Proper equipment is needed. It has nothing to do with "Fancy".
Fact is we are set up to compensate, both windage and elevation. If we range the target we know exactly how many clicks to adjust for so that we are dead on. we KNOW how far we drop or how far we shoot over, so we dont have to shoot then adjust when we are out in the field because we have spent lots of hours pinpointing it. We dont shoot long distances on windy days, but we can deal with typical wind drift. Same as any hunter. We wont be shooting 13 inches high at 200 yards because we can adjust it down to shoot at 200 yards. And we wont be shooting low at 500 because we compensate for the drop and adjust it up.... THerefore compensating for the difference by knowing our range and having the equipment capible of doing that makes us accurate. This is all done prior to ever going out hunting. Its not a crap shoot. You range your target, adjust the scope, take aim and shoot. We dont just start lobbing bullets in... 
_ *** You state--- 3200 fps with anything other than a light for caliber bullet then your probably shooting loads that are OVER maximum pressure. Most 150 gr bullets in a 300 mag only get about 3300 at most. Factory loads are slower****_
Since you have no clue what grain, type of bullet, or whether we load our own or buy from a local wearhouse, (Perhaps we buy from a warehouse for everyday bullets and load our own for long range? or maybe we have them loaded specifically for us....) You dont know so therefore shouldnt assume. So not knowing what we are shooting How can you just say we are _"probably over maximum pressure_"? Just because you dont know what we do doesnt mean we dont know what we are doing. 
And Snipers do NOT get as close to their target as possible. They would be dead if they did. Snipers are trained in long range shooting because its safer for them to sneak in, set up, shoot the target and sneak back out without the enemy knowing where they are... Which is the whole idea. Distance is his safety net. IM not talking some cop sniper shooting some guy in a gas station hold up. Im talking Military snipers, true long range shooters. Hiding in the woods or wherever and taking out a target a mile away. Its done with preciscion and skill. 
Since you quoted a target of 18 x 24 inches lets look at that.. How big is a deers heart area? 18x 24 is a rather large target. Whats the problem with that? We are sighting in with smaller groups than that. 
You seem to assume that long range shooting is for people who cant sneak up on game.. LOL It has nothing to do with that at all. We hunt and hunt successfully. We dont maim or injury animals. We shoot to kill and we want to do it in one shot. Chasing some wounded game across mountain ranges isnt our idea of hunting. Injuring an animal and making it suffer is NOT our idea of hunting. So we make sure that each shot is as dead on as can be to insure a clean kill.  
We never used to shoot long range because we were like you assuming that it just wasnt possible. Our usually range was 10 to 400 yards. And 400 yards is a long way for some people. So even there we are still shooting longer than most.. Now that we know how to do it we can go out a little further such as the buck my hubby shot at 642 yards. One shot, one kill. The buck didnt run off nor did it have to be shot again when we got to it. It was dead with one shot. When you KNOW what your equipment is capable of, you know what the outside variables are, and when you have the skill level, having spent many many hours practising, its not THAT hard to do. 
Here is a link to a PDf file showing the 600 yard range National championships.. Notice the scores and those the number with the X next to it means how many bullseyes were hit.... http://sacvalley.org/SacVal/NBRSA_600_-_1000_Yds/2006 Match results in pdf.pdf
The top gun score holder had 16 bullseyes. Top Heavy gun shooter also had 16 bulls eyes, Two different shooters. Somehow I dont think this is pure luck or poor range estimate.... 

How about if you make a shot at a deer at 100 yards, you hit it, but it still runs off, say it stops out at 400 yards, if you know how to shoot the longer distances, you can drop him right there..and you dont run the risk of losing a wounded animal..And save yourself the time of having to track it.. Learning to shoot long distances makes you even better at shooting normal range shots. For example When you learned to walk it was hard, but now that you know how to run walking is easy ... 
Weve shot deer/elk at close range and at further ranges. But we happen to be interested in long range shooting as well. We have the knowldge and the know how. We have the proper equipment. Its not a game nor is it for the unskilled. Yes its expensive because in order to shoot with accuracy we need the best equipment. And that equipment isnt cheap and you wont find it at the local hunting store. We dont always shoot the longer distances but its nice to know that we can... We even BOW hunt. (there goes your comment about of us needing to learn to get closer to the animals) 
At any rate, you choose to disagree, that is fine, but dont assume that WE have no knowledge just because you dont believe it is possible. It doesnt matter to me wether you approve or not, or if you believe me or not. But the facts are facts and those "600 yard shots" are not done with Luck or poor range estimate or because people cant sneak up on animals. Its called skill.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

"You are quite negative/sarcastic in your post."

Not at all. I said all along this was my opinion. And I never said what YOU said was "wrong" But you are still comparing target shooting to hunting. They are seperate things."

"Since you have no clue what grain, type of bullet, or whether we load our own or buy from a local wearhouse, (Perhaps we buy from a warehouse for everyday bullets and load our own for long range? or maybe we have them loaded specifically for us....) You dont know so therefore shouldnt assume."

I dont have to know your particular load to know what a cartridge is capable of or what industry standards for velocity and pressures are. 25 years of reloading has taught me all that. I never said you didnt understand what you were saying either. That doesnt change ANY of the FACTS I posted about ballistics. If youre getting "well over 3200 FPS" with anything more than a 150 grain bullet youre shooting a hot load. Feel free to post your load details. And define "well over"

On those DVD's I imagine they edited out all the misses and only showed the best shots taken under ideal conditions. Ive seen Bill Dance catch bass after bass in a 30 minute show but he doesnt tell you it took 3 days of fishing to get that footage.

'There are competitions, there are meets, there are clubs etc. One club near us wont even let you shoot at their range until you have completed 3 tournaments at the 1000 yard range.'

Again youre jumping from target to hunting. I stated long range shooting is fine for TARGETS. Hunting is not the same controlled conditions


"Since you quoted a target of 18 x 24 inches lets look at that.. How big is a deers heart area? 18x 24 is a rather large target. Whats the problem with that? We are sighting in with smaller groups than that."

Re read what I REALLY said: "Miltary snipers are figuring on a target area 18 inches wide and 24 inches tall. None of this has anything to do with hunting game." 
It STILL has nothing to do with hunting

A deers "kill zone is usually figured at 8 inches. So if your gun will shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yds AT THE TARGET RANGE its PURE LUCK to hit inside that 8 inch circle at 800 yds. Add in miscalculatons for wind, mirage, and odd ranges (as in 642 yds) and its more likely youll wound the animal than kill it cleanly

I realize SOME people can and do hit targets out to 1000 yds ( using a 24 inch bullseye in competitions) And like you said it takes specialized equipment and lots of practice. But this thread started as wanting to know if a 300 WSM was a "good deer round". Everything I said in answer to that is still true.


"Most people who dont understand what we do always say oh its luck, or people cant shoot at that range. Or no bullet can possible reach that far."

That was YOUR assumption, not mine

"And Snipers do NOT get as close to their target as possible"

That is NOT what I said at all. If youre going to quote me make it the actual quote. The rest of it was "to ensure a good shot". They spend more time training on camo and tactics than on actual shooting. To a military sniper often a wounding shot is more desirable than a clean kill. It ties up resources and draws out other targets. The subject HERE is hunting animals.

"How about if you make a shot at a deer at 100 yards, you hit it, but it still runs off, say it stops out at 400 yards, if you know how to shoot the longer distances, you can drop him right there..and you dont run the risk of losing a wounded animal"

If you "know how to shoot at longer distances" this isnt very likely at all. How about if you shoot an animal at 600 yds and he runs off anyway? The odds are much greater of this actually happening. Youve wounded and LOST an animal that deserves more respect. No matter HOW GOOD a shot you MAY be, its still not the responsible thing to do. If hes a quarter mile away when you shoot youll be lucky to find any blood trail at all and he'll be long gone before you can get there


"We never used to shoot long range because we were like you assuming that it just wasnt possible."

Where did I say it wasnt "possible" I said in my opinion it was unethical. Being possible wont make it the right thing to do.

List your pet loads for me and we can analyze the ballistics and energy calculations and then discuss terminal ballistics too. But lets stick to hunting and leave out sniping and target shooting, or discuss those as the seperate issues they are. What applies to one has little to do with the other in reality

"Here is a link to a PDf file showing the 600 yard range National championships.. Notice the scores and those the number with the X next to it means how many bullseyes were hit.... http://sacvalley.org/SacVal/NBRSA_6... in pdf.pdf
The top gun score holder had 16 bullseyes. Top Heavy gun shooter also had 16 bulls eyes, Two different shooters. Somehow I dont think this is pure luck or poor range estimate.."

Exactly. This is a result of specialized equipment, some of the BEST shooters in the game, and RANGE conditons with precise known distances and wind flags along the range. It is NOT hunting conditions with unknown distances, odd angles and lighting and NO CLUE as to the winds across the valley. And a 24 inch bullseye. Interesting but not relevent to hunting . Nothing youve said so far leans me towards changing my original statement about the USUAL "600 yd shot". 

This has NOTHING to do with YOUR personal capabilities.


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## ChickenFryChato (Jan 12, 2006)

I live in Texas and hunt whitetail with all kinds of guns: 30/30, 270, 243, 22-250, .30-06 and yes even a .300. A 300 is a big gun, no doubt. But geez, it kills the deer without destroying the meat. Isn't that what we want? If you make a bad shot, then it's going to mess up the meat, no matter what kind of gun you use. To me, a 300 is just a good gun to have in your cabinet. 
I love to hunt, and I love to use the .300. 
And I don't know crap about ballistics. I just know what I know.

CFC


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## LindaVistaFarm (Jul 22, 2006)

I am a trained Marine Corps sniper who spent 2 tours in Nam. I have a rifle that will hit a 6" circle at 1,000 yards. But, when hunting, I rarely shoot over 300 yards. Just too much going on to rely on anything longer. I use a 300 H&H magnum. I can load it to match a 300 mag or I can download it to a 308. It depends on what I am hunting. For bear I go up to the mag. For deer I download to 308. I can load the 300 H&H with anything from 110 grain to 220 grain bullets. The only problem with this round is the cases are hard to come by. I can find them but they are expensive. I just have to take care of them. I never leave any in the woods. The 300WSM is suppose to be the next great thing. The theory brehind this round and all the WSM/WSSMs makes sence to me. Way more efficeint at burning powder. Less recoil, easier on the barrel. I think I might go out and get the 325WSM for bear.

Johnny


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