# ? not a good guard dog for goats ?



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I was just contacted by an English Mastiff breeder who told me an English Mastiff was like a Lab in that it would not guard my small herd of dairy goats on my little 6-acre homestead. Can anyone speak to this? (Maybe I'm confused, but what I've been reading about Mastiffs is that they are good with guarding goats.) Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm contemplating a Mastiff/Langel mix.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

motdaugrnds said:


> I was just contacted by an English Mastiff breeder who told me an English Mastiff was like a Lab in that it would not guard my small herd of dairy goats on my little 6-acre homestead. Can anyone speak to this? (Maybe I'm confused, but what I've been reading about Mastiffs is that they are good with guarding goats.) Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm contemplating a Mastiff/Langel mix.


 I cant speak for the breed, but they told you "Their dogs" wont work, that is pretty forthright. They could have just tried to sell ya a yard ornament. When you said kangel on 6 acres, made me wonder cause they are long rangy dogs. I thought you said it was too hot in VA for mastiffs?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

English Mastiffs are not LGDs.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Darn! The more I research, the less I know!

I want a "guard" dog (not a pet) that will not suffer in our hot/humid summers, will stay with the herd of goats wherever they may roam, will not chase my fowl and will not hesitate to attack "all" predators, including 2-legged ones. Why is this so hard?


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Visit this website to get more information on Livestock Guardian Breeds: www.lgd.org 
You'll have to train your dog to leave the fowl alone at least when it is young. A pup is a pup and chickens are fun to chase. I'm in the south and use Anatolians, but I would say that they can be roamers unless your fence is good enough to keep them in. I had problems with a female who could jump any fence and decided to guard our property and both of my neighbors places (a total of about 800 acres) A hot wire run along the top of the fence kept her home. 
Good luck, it is a difficult decision to pick the breed that will work for you.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

We have an English Mastiff and they are not LGDs. They much prefer to be with their people. Mine takes every step I take and when he is with the children he takes every step they take. He is a great all around property guard and personal guard so he does help out our LGD, but I wouldn't count on him to be an LGD. You might be thinking of Spanish Mastiffs. Blessings, Kat


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

motdaugrnds said:


> Darn! The more I research, the less I know!
> 
> I want a "guard" dog (not a pet) that will not suffer in our hot/humid summers, will stay with the herd of goats wherever they may roam, will not chase my fowl and will not hesitate to attack "all" predators, including 2-legged ones. Why is this so hard?


 There is a big difference between a guard dog and an LGD.
*While you are getting frustrated at this point, I think is a good thing.* Unlike so many idiots that rush in doing no homework, then the dog ends up the victim. Either in a situation that just does not work for them, getting pawned off on someone else or dumped in a shelter, *all through no fault of the animal*!
Almost all puppies are going to want to play with chickens, they are soft, walk funny ect. Chicken tries to get away, puppy has to tell them he just wants to play so runs after them, now he is chasing chickens. This is something you need to teach the dog not to do.
6 acres is a postage stamp to some of these dogs, that can cover vast areas without so much as getting winded.
Anyway you slice it your gonna have your work cut out for you.You can also teach them the fence line just by walking it daily as they grow, your place fenced to keep the goats from wandering to far? 
I think if you get a farm/guard dog at a young age from a breed with natural guarding instinct and raise them with the herd, they will bond with the goats, but you still have to teach them not to chase birds. Playing ball, fetch, Frisbee or anything like that would be a definite no no, because all these things are based on something going away from the dog and them chasing it down _(Like a chicken goes away from them)_ 
As for the heat, if you have some shade natural or man made & water, most dogs will do fine.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thanks so much for the encouragement. I do understand "puppies". 

ROFL I remember how my German shepherd (when a pup) would bounce around playing with a goose that would snap at her. Not once did she try to hurt the goose; but if the goose had not defended itself, I have little doubt feathers would have been flying and I would have had to step in to correct that pup. As it turned out, she would even try to catch whatever was flying over the fowl that she deemed a threat to them. (She turned out to be an alpha that would never allow herself to be bred by some commoner...lol Thus, when I lost her to that mocossin, I had nothing left of her.) Patience is always needed with puppies, as with babies of all types.

I'm leaning toward the Kangal and/or Kangal mix (female), though I've been offered a full blood German Shepherd pup for free. I've had two females on the place before that got along well; but they weren't as territorial as a Kangal is; so seeking information about this. (I wouldn't mind at all having 2 quality females on my place!)

Yes, I've seen my other dogs get under the loft steps where the sun never hit; and yes they did ok with a lot of brushing. I'm just getting too old to keep up the maintenance such a dog needs to be as comfortable as I would like it to be.

Yes, my homestead is fenced...actually there is multiple fencing because, though all my animals free-range, I keep my goats out of my garden, out of the blueberry patch, out of the buck pen and back pasture until I'm ready for them to be there. [The parameter fencing around the 6 acres is 6" off ground and 4' high (woven) with solid posts. The garden has a 9' fence around it (to keep out the deer).]


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

This looks like a good thread to ask a question on. I am the proud owner of 6 - 15 day old half chow and Great Pyrenee puppies. Would they make good animal gaurd dogs? And yes I have posted all over this forum about this. Just did not look long enough.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

While there are a few mastiff breeds that work as LGD, the English Mastiff is not one of them. The EM is extremely human oriented. They are an effective protection for your family, but they neeeed to be with the family. Their personalities are not such that they could handle being kept away from the family, or be expected to bond to the livestock. You might be thinking of the Tibetan Mastiff or the Spanish Mastiff.

Rock is completely correct about the training aspect. Even an LGD is going to need to be trained not to chase and play with the livestock. At the puppy age it is almost guaranteed to happen, and will be important for you to keep them from succeeding. Consistency is everything in training, and letting your dog know that they can get away with chasing and playing with livestock when you're not around is going to make things much more difficult. 

This is where some of those high price tags come in with LGD breeders. Many have the option to buy your puppy after it has been trained to stock for 3-12 months. The older the dog, the more training, the higher the price tag. So it's up to the buyer to know what they are and are not capable of handling in bringing a dog into their operation.

When your dog lives outside with the flock they are going to be spending most of their time out of your site. This means that you have to be able to provide a secure situation to keep your new pup from chasing and biting when you're not there to stop it. 

There is also the need to be able to protect a small puppy from being rolled and stomped by livestock that feels threatened. Everyone has a different way of dealing with this. Some tie their dogs on a long line inside the pasture with the livestock so that they cannot chase. Some train with collars. Some keep their dogs in their own space until they are trustworthy, etc. 

Kangals are incredible dogs. I greatly admire them, but they can be a handful for a first time LGD owner. However, if you do your homework (as you obviously are), work with your breeder, and have the patience and training know how, you can do well with them. Don't discount Anatolians either. They are a nice, readily available, Turkish LGD that works very well for a lot of people. 

I applaud you for taking the time to educate yourself before jumping into buying a dog. Sadly, most do not. 

Regarding the fur maintnence. I have had Pyrenees out here on our ranch for 4 years, and they do just fine. They get twigs, grasses and burs in them, but I just pull the biggest stuff out when I feed them every day. It takes a few seconds. I can also run my fingers through their hair and pull apart any places that are starting to mat. In the spring, after they've been in full shed mode for a couple of weeks, I either brush them out or use a clipper to take them down to an inch or two.
They keep themselves clean, most of them will pull out their own burs and sticks, and the maintenance is not as high as some might suggest.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

CFF, what "clipper" do you use on your long-haired dogs? I tried the clipper I had and it would not cut thru the thick coat of Apache (mixed chow, anatolian, lab, wolf and who knows what else). I actually needed to brush her daily when she was shedding and that was hard on her as well as on me. I would have loved to have just cut it all real short so brushing wouldn't have been so difficult.


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## 40acres (Mar 15, 2013)

My suggestion is Anatolian shepherds. They adapt well to hot or cold weather and are bred to guard livestock. They live with the livestock all the time and love doing it. Buy two of them as puppies and raise them with the livestock. They will for the most part "know what to do" already, except for maybe playing with the livestock when still a puppy that you may have to dissuade them from doing.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

40acres, I am, indeed, thinking of getting 2 of a kind; however, I don't want to breed dogs but maybe only once just to mature the female. Thus, I was thinking the 2 of I might be better off getting is a pair of sisters. 

I'm looking at the Langel, the Anatolian and the Akbash. What is your take on getting 2 female puppies from one of these?


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Janet McNally runs a LOT of sheep up in MN.She has a webpage that you might want to read. What she found was that most dogs that attacked her flocks were young, athletic males.
They would avoid a flock guarded by an entire male. They would go for the flocks guarded by a neutered animal or a female, spayed or not. So, it seems to me, an entire male is the most valuable LGD. 

If it were me, (and it is) I will keep the male entire and spay the female. 

Two females are going to have dominance issues.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Judy in IN said:


> Two females are going to have dominance issues.


I can't disagree with the intact male suggestion, but I think you will find that plenty of people successfully run female LGD without issue, and that two females who are raised together will work out their hierarchy without issue as they age. Introducing a new female to an older, property established female could result in battling, but this is a highly unlikely scenario if you are raising two female pups together.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> English Mastiffs are not LGDs.


MOST aren't guard dogs period. However crossing them in tones down the intensity of a lot of breeds.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

sounds like the type of livestock dog youwant is an andilosion sheapard (forgive my spelling) a perineses may work but are les aggressive tward humans and may be a better choise in a more populated area . look for dogs that come from livestock guarding parents . I doupt very muh that a mastiff could become a livestock dog of any type .


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Great information. Thanks to all of you for helping.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> MOST aren't guard dogs period.


I would have to strongly disagree. EMs would give their lives for their family. They are not a protection dog in that biting is their absolute last resort, but they are not going to sit by and allow harm to their families. It is extremely necessary to well socialize an EM in order to create a safe dog that is not distrusting because they strongly maintain their working instinct as guardian. I have grown up with the mastiff breeds, the EM being my personal choice for my own family.

They actively guard their home and family in the same, quiet, in-obvious way that an effective LGD guards their flocks. They waste no energy and use intimidation as their first line of defense. EMs are my great love, and this is one of the many things which I love about them.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

We have a pair of Anatolians. One is 1/4 Pyr.
Dont know if it is personality or how they were raised before we got them as pups but the neutred male though a fine dog is not as aggressive as the intact one. 
I did not know they are referred as "entire"?
They both kill any predator, but our intact helps birth. He will also bite a stranger if they try to pet his goats. Naturally we allow no one in the goat areas.
As for brushing; I rarely do this they have street roller brushes & fence to rub on.
Please remember it's Kangal not Langel.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CageFreeFamily said:


> I would have to strongly disagree. EMs would give their lives for their family. They are not a protection dog in that biting is their absolute last resort, but they are not going to sit by and allow harm to their families. It is extremely necessary to well socialize an EM in order to create a safe dog that is not distrusting because they strongly maintain their working instinct as guardian. I have grown up with the mastiff breeds, the EM being my personal choice for my own family.
> 
> They actively guard their home and family in the same, quiet, in-obvious way that an effective LGD guards their flocks. They waste no energy and use intimidation as their first line of defense. EMs are my great love, and this is one of the many things which I love about them.


We'll have to agree to disagree. In the working bandog community, bourdeauxs, neos, & bullmastiffs are used to boost man aggression while "game" bulldogs are used to boost athleticism & refusal to quit the the fight. The EM is the exception, it is used specifically to tone down the intensity & increase control when crossed w/pit bulldogs that do man work. The people crossing them specifically want a less aggressive more people friendly dog than most other bandog breeders. Of the half dozen or so I've personally met, none were protective that I ever saw. One hid behind its owner barking at a lunging dog half it's size. Two others laid there watching their owner get into an angry drunken brawl, didn't even get off the couch. The others were just fawning on everyone like great big labs. So yeah no confidence in the breed as a whole.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. In the working bandog community, bourdeauxs, neos, & bullmastiffs are used to boost man aggression while "game" bulldogs are used to boost athleticism & refusal to quit the the fight. The EM is the exception, it is used specifically to tone down the intensity & increase control when crossed w/pit bulldogs that do man work. The people crossing them specifically want a less aggressive more people friendly dog than most other bandog breeders. Of the half dozen or so I've personally met, none were protective that I ever saw. One hid behind its owner barking at a lunging dog half it's size. Two others laid there watching their owner get into an angry drunken brawl, didn't even get off the couch. The others were just fawning on everyone like great big labs. So yeah no confidence in the breed as a whole.


The point of the EM is that they are not aggressive. They protect without aggressive tendencies. This is why so many of us like them in our homes. I can't really get behind dismissing a few thousand years of breeding, and an entire breed purpose because the couple of dogs you met were poor examples of their breed. I can't say that I've ever witnessed a drunken brawl, nor would I be around that kind of person, but I certainly wouldn't use them as an example. 
As I've said, the breed is intended to work as a home and family guardian. Like LGDs they are territorial of their _home space._ They are not bred to be aggressive, get into fights, break up their owners asinine behaviors, or attack. They are bred to recognize a threat to their _home space_, and retain it until the owners handle the threat. They will not bite unless the threat fails to respond to their warnings. When they bite they do it to hold, not tear and cause damage. Not everyone looking for a guard dog is looking for a bite work dog.

Most of the Neos, that most people will ever encounter, are over bred, slow, and far from their working roots, but this does not mean that the breed is supposed to be this way, nor that most of it actually is. Most Golden Retrievers you will see are little yellow poof-balls bred to follow their families around and play. They suck in the field, and you'd never see one of those at a trial. This does not mean that the breed fails. Within any breed there is a faction that is working theirs for instinct, and another that is breeding for conformation type. We tend not to even count those who breed dogs that fail to conform to either, so why would you do just that for the EM failures that you witnessed?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CageFreeFamily said:


> The point of the EM is that they are not aggressive. They protect without aggressive tendencies. This is why so many of us like them in our homes. I can't really get behind dismissing a few thousand years of breeding, and an entire breed purpose because the couple of dogs you met were poor examples of their breed. I can't say that I've ever witnessed a drunken brawl, nor would I be around that kind of person, but I certainly wouldn't use them as an example.


Laying in front of the door to keep it from being broken into isn't really guarding a house. You can do the same with a couch. A dog that won't bite to protect you is about as useful as the couch, maybe less. Barking to alert is also not guarding. It's alerting you not stopping the bad guys in & of itself.
It's funny you bring up thousands of years of history. It's funny for two reasons, one being that history is all about the aggression of the mastives of Briton/Britain. Pulling down destriers & chargers while wearing armor, dragging down Roman Legionares & fighting lions in the coliseum are all acts of aggression.
Secondly it's funny because purebreds only go back to the late 19th century, and the English mastiff (as we know it) goes back to one VERY AGGRESSIVE dog name Thorneywood Terror. Terror's breeder made good money showcasing his ability to run down, catch & pin men on command. In five years time more than 90% of all new KC registered EMs were Terror pups, grand pups & great grand pups (also 100% of bullmastiffs). His genetics swamped the breed in both Britain & the USA.
It was intentional breeding to reduce aggression by the show fancy that made th breed what it is now. Breed characteristics are what is common to MOST of the breed. Most EMs are longer guard dogs of any kind because most breeders have been actively selecting for "gentle giants." As with any breed there are few if any absolutes, some Terror throwbacks occur, but they are exceptions. But among the people I've talked to that make their living producing legitimate guard dogs, the EM is not a choice. My own limited experiences have borne this out. But I also know people that have 
As for the drunken brawl, I had a misspent youth. Fun, but misspent. Again, what good is a dog that will let you fight by yourself? Most dogs I've owned would. Most dogs will join "their pack" in a fight even if they would never start it (heck its the reason I don't like to hunt my dogs with other people's dogs).


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CageFreeFamily said:


> Most of the Neos, that most people will ever encounter, are over bred, slow, and far from their working roots, but this does not mean that the breed is supposed to be this way, nor that most of it actually is. Most Golden Retrievers you will see are little yellow poof-balls bred to follow their families around and play. They suck in the field, and you'd never see one of those at a trial. This does not mean that the breed fails. Within any breed there is a faction that is working theirs for instinct, and another that is breeding for conformation type. We tend not to even count those who breed dogs that fail to conform to either, so why would you do just that for the EM failures that you witnessed?


No MOST neos are crap bred, so even if hey have the heart drives, they still can't do the job effectively. Good neos are so rare that my acquaintance Roger brought one in from Clinton C in South Africa for his bandog program.
Again like you said, MOST goldens are bred to be big puffy pets not field dogs. That means MOST of the breed is a fail in the field so the breed as a whole is a fail. The exceptions however are a great field dog especially for the guy that isn't driven to limit out but wants the quality time.
What I'm saying is that the EM as a WHOLE, or MOST of the breed is just a big goofy pet and can in no way be counted on and BTW my limited personal experience backs this up.
You may very well have access to a whole line that is an exception, GREAT.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

motdaugrnds said:


> I don't want to breed dogs but maybe only once just to mature the female.


Breeding does NOT mature the female. Time does that. 
Breeding takes her away from her guarding job and gives her puppies to concentrate on. You want the _goats_ to be her babies that she spends all her time with and defends to the death - why would you give her puppies instead?

If you want a pair, I'd go with an opposite sex pair - NOT for breeding or because of dominance, but because they'll have different guarding styles.
And while I'd wait until he was over a year old to neuter him, I'd still neuter the male. 

Folks can say what they want about LGDs being different, but they're still dogs and still have sex drives and I've never personally met an intact male LGD who would stay home when there was a ***** in heat near, and I've never personally met one who would drive a ***** in heat off his property. And I've met, farmed with, worked with and lived next to plenty of them. All those Pyr + chow, aussie, collie, hound, etc, cross puppies aren't being brought by the stork.

And if he's off chasing tail or letting other dogs in the yard - then he's not doing his job.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Those are good points Otter. Thank you


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> No MOST
> What I'm saying is that the EM as a WHOLE, or MOST of the breed is just a big goofy pet and can in no way be counted on and BTW my limited personal experience backs this up.


So you have limited experience with the breed and are able to judge the entire breed a failure? Wow. Okay.
You can judge the effectiveness of an entire breed because you've seen a few fail to be something that they weren't bred to be? As I've stated this is not a breed that was bred to be aggressive. This is not a breed that was bred to act in any of the situations that you used as examples. You are judging and entire breed to be a failure because your own limited experience and understanding of the breed's working type left you unimpressed?
Again, wow. Okay. 

:bdh: Done. 

:hijacked:


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

CageFreeFamily said:


> So you have limited experience with the breed and are able to judge the entire breed a failure? Wow. Okay.
> You can judge the effectiveness of an entire breed because you've seen a few fail to be something that they weren't bred to be? As I've stated this is not a breed that was bred to be aggressive. This is not a breed that was bred to act in any of the situations that you used as examples. You are judging and entire breed to be a failure because your own limited experience and understanding of the breed's working type left you unimpressed?
> Again, wow. Okay.
> 
> ...


And you're judging the effectiveness of an entire breed by the "success" you've seen of a few...Or am I wrong and you've vast experience with many members of this breed? Pops is a dog-man...He's been around them probably longer than at least one of us has been alive...I see him quoting bloodlines and naming people...It would seem that he has more than a passing knowledge of the mastiffs and dogs in general...I've only seen you counter his statements by stating he hasn't encountered them all and belittling his "limited experience."

So, what are you bringing to the table in this debate? How long have you been working with EMs? Are you breeding your own or purchasing from a breeder? What bloodlines have you found effective guardians? Which breeder(s) is working with those bloodlines? How long have they been developing those lines and what are their strengths and weaknesses? Did they import or did they begin to develop their own? Where's their site or contact info?


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

TriWinkle said:


> And you're judging the effectiveness of an entire breed by the "success" you've seen of a few...Or am I wrong and you've vast experience with many members of this breed? Pops is a dog-man...He's been around them probably longer than at least one of us has been alive...I see him quoting bloodlines and naming people...It would seem that he has more than a passing knowledge of the mastiffs and dogs in general...I've only seen you counter his statements by stating he hasn't encountered them all and belittling his "limited experience."
> 
> So, what are you bringing to the table in this debate? How long have you been working with EMs? Are you breeding your own or purchasing from a breeder? What bloodlines have you found effective guardians? Which breeder(s) is working with those bloodlines? How long have they been developing those lines and what are their strengths and weaknesses? Did they import or did they begin to develop their own? Where's their site or contact info?


Not only have I been a "dog person" my entire life, having come from a family that breeds, trains, works, handles, and shows working dogs, but I have raised and worked them my entire adult life. I have worked as a professional trainer for nearly twenty years. I grew up with protection dogs, LGDs and multiple breeds of mastiff. I began learning to handle Schutzhund dogs when I was 14 years old and began learning to train them when I was 17. I am far from new, inexperienced, or limited in my breed range.

And yes, I do have extensive experience with English Mastiffs. 
I do not breed English Mastiffs, nor does Pops. Did you ask him those questions when he decided that in his limited experience with the breed that he could make a judgement on the entire breed. Breeding English Mastiffs is one of the most expensive, time consuming breeds you could choose to breed, and it does not fit in with my other breed activities. I have a ranch to run. I have other animals and dogs that I must give my full attention to, but my choice to not breed my own EMs does not indicate that I am new or ignorant of the breed. 

What do I bring to this conversation? More personal experience with the breed than anyone else here. Two decades of training, handling, owning, breeding, and showing working dogs. Do you seriously want me to quote bloodlines and name breeders? Seriously? PM me and I'd be happy to put you in touch with a list of breeders and resources. This is what I do. 

Perhaps before you jump into a conversation to try to put a person in their place you should know a little bit more about them, because ALL of the assumptions you have made here are dead wrong. 

I suggest that you cannot discount an entire breed because you have limited experience and the couple that you met weren't what you though, and know very little about the working traits of the breed, and you counter asking for MY CREDENTIALS? Seriously? That's more than a little hypocritical. 

This has turned from a discussion on a breed to a personal, and wrongly footed, attack on my intelligence, knowledge and self. 

Pathetic. You are attempting to call me on all of the points that I already made about Pops experience with the breed, so what exactly is your point other than that you have nothing to add to the actual discussion of the breed?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CageFreeFamily said:


> So you have limited experience with the breed and are able to judge the entire breed a failure? Wow. Okay.
> You can judge the effectiveness of an entire breed because you've seen a few fail to be something that they weren't bred to be? As I've stated this is not a breed that was bred to be aggressive. This is not a breed that was bred to act in any of the situations that you used as examples. You are judging and entire breed to be a failure because your own limited experience and understanding of the breed's working type left you unimpressed?
> Again, wow. Okay.
> 
> ...


No what I'm saying is that my experiences bear out what I've been told by people with FAR more experience producing guard dogs than I do. People who actually make a living producing guard dogs for people who REALLY need them (some of whom use EM in their cross breeding programs) tell me the EM as a whole has been made useless by breeders trying to create a "gentle giant." 
The show fancy & pet breeders bred the drive out to make them gentle and the agility out to make them giant. Along the way many were turned into giant pugs with a smashed in face that eliminates jaw strength and inhibits breathing so they have no endurance for a fight. But even after this happened throwbacks occurred (mostly from junk breeders no caring about their breeding program). Unfortunately the EM was mostly a status symbol & pet after WWI and no one really tried to maintain working stock for the next 90 years.
In contrast the bourdeaux & bullmastiff were bred primarily for man work until after WWII and some die hards continued after. The neo (& to a lesser extent the Cane Corso) was created in the 60s & 70s for man work. So while the form was screwed up the breeds still have strong drives, which is why they are the dominant breeds used to make bandogs.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

While I definately appreciate the experiences shared by all posters, I would appreciate more personal sensitivity for one another.

I do understand having someone tell you the history of different breeds is advantageous, so is the hands-on experiences.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> No what I'm saying is that my experiences bear out what I've been told by people with FAR more experience producing guard dogs than I do. People who actually make a living producing guard dogs for people who REALLY need them (some of whom use EM in their cross breeding programs) tell me the EM as a whole has been made useless by breeders trying to create a "gentle giant."
> The show fancy & pet breeders bred the drive out to make them gentle and the agility out to make them giant. Along the way many were turned into giant pugs with a smashed in face that eliminates jaw strength and inhibits breathing so they have no endurance for a fight. But even after this happened throwbacks occurred (mostly from junk breeders no caring about their breeding program). Unfortunately the EM was mostly a status symbol & pet after WWI and no one really tried to maintain working stock for the next 90 years.
> In contrast the bourdeaux & bullmastiff were bred primarily for man work until after WWII and some die hards continued after. The neo (& to a lesser extent the Cane Corso) was created in the 60s & 70s for man work. So while the form was screwed up the breeds still have strong drives, which is why they are the dominant breeds used to make bandogs.


Yes. Agreed. All of the dogs that you mentioned are a superior choice for bandogs. They maintain, and show their aggressive instincts. However you are not getting your EM information from any of the many people _working to preserve the English mastiff_. You are getting it from people who misunderstand the breed, and then use it for breeding purposes anyway. 
I have maintained all along that the EM shows no aggressive tendencies. I have maintained all along that they are not the same kind of dog as the CC, the Boerboel, the Fila, etc. They simply are not meant for the same kind of work. They are not bred for the same temperment as the dogs they are being compared to. This does not, however, equate them to giant pugs. It does not mean that the _breed_ is ineffective, without value, or ruined. 

There are many breeds that I do not appreciate. There are many breeds who share trials with my breeds who I would not choose because they are an inferior choice to what _I_ want from my breed. This does not mean that I have the right or the knowledge to discount those other breeds. I would never propose to tell a person that their whole breed has been ruined and made inferior because I do not believe that it as as good as my own breed. Chances are, I would be shown my own ignorance if I tried.

I have worked with many different breeds doing bite work. I have my own personal favorites. My own personal feelings about which dog is the very best for the job. This does not make my beliefs a truth. It does not mean that I am right and others are wrong. It does not mean that the breeds that I would not choose for myself are inferior. It means that they are different. I have not taken the time to do the same dedicated research and work with them as I have with my own breeds. 

For instance, you raise a breed that I would never choose for myself. I have breeds that overlap in duties, and instinct. Does this mean that I can judge your breed inferior or lacking? Of course not. I've met a few in my life. I've trained a couple. I know some superficial facts about the breed. That does not make me a likely candidate for making sweeping statements about your breed.

No breed should be judged by what conformation breeders are doing to the breed. Where we to do that 90% of the breeds would have to be called worthless. 
A percentage, even a large one, of a breed failing to maintain workable instinct does not equate to the ruin of a breed. Many breeds have been 'ruined' by decades of improper breeding, only to be forgotten and given back to those who were always working, tirelessly, to maintain their breed's true form. To discount their breed would be cruel, because they are, in fact, working against the hardest of obstacles to maintain their breed.

I want to say that I appreciate your perspective. I_ do not disagree_ that much of the breed, like so many others, has fallen prey to stupid breeders, and ignorant buyers. I appreciate you sharing your opinion in a non aggressive way, and not making it personal, and I hope that you feel that my exchanges with you have been the same. I am only trying to maintain that my great love (the EM) is not a lost breed, and that many of us consider it to be the most important thing to maintain their value as more than a foot warmer. If the whole breed is bad, then my dog is as well, but my personal experience proves this untrue. 

I am getting ready to leave on my first vacation in 5 years, and it's to be for two months. I have to bow out for now because I've spent time on the computer that I didn't have to spend today. Please understand that EMs are my great love. I love my other breeds and in working ability they are the tops, but I have a deep connection to the EM breed and I hate to see the whole thing being misunderstood. It's hard to be a part of a hijacked breed. It's a painful thing to watch and a painful thing to have your dogs lumped in with the mess.

All the best.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, OP.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

CageFreeFamily said:


> Not only have I been a "dog person" my entire life, having come from a family that breeds, trains, works, handles, and shows working dogs, but I have raised and worked them my entire adult life. I have worked as a professional trainer for nearly twenty years. I grew up with protection dogs, LGDs and multiple breeds of mastiff. I began learning to handle Schutzhund dogs when I was 14 years old and began learning to train them when I was 17. I am far from new, inexperienced, or limited in my breed range.
> 
> And yes, I do have extensive experience with English Mastiffs.
> I do not breed English Mastiffs, nor does Pops. Did you ask him those questions when he decided that in his limited experience with the breed that he could make a judgement on the entire breed. Breeding English Mastiffs is one of the most expensive, time consuming breeds you could choose to breed, and it does not fit in with my other breed activities. I have a ranch to run. I have other animals and dogs that I must give my full attention to, but my choice to not breed my own EMs does not indicate that I am new or ignorant of the breed.
> ...



Talk is cheap. I questioned. You accused. Pathetic? Perhaps, but I have company. Enjoy the vacation. Looks like you could use one.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CageFreeFamily said:


> Yes. Agreed. All of the dogs that you mentioned are a superior choice for bandogs. They maintain, and show their aggressive instincts. However you are not getting your EM information from any of the many people _working to preserve the English mastiff_. You are getting it from people who misunderstand the breed, and then use it for breeding purposes anyway.
> I have maintained all along that the EM shows no aggressive tendencies. I have maintained all along that they are not the same kind of dog as the CC, the Boerboel, the Fila, etc. They simply are not meant for the same kind of work. They are not bred for the same temperment as the dogs they are being compared to. This does not, however, equate them to giant pugs. It does not mean that the _breed_ is ineffective, without value, or ruined.
> 
> There are many breeds that I do not appreciate. There are many breeds who share trials with my breeds who I would not choose because they are an inferior choice to what _I_ want from my breed. This does not mean that I have the right or the knowledge to discount those other breeds. I would never propose to tell a person that their whole breed has been ruined and made inferior because I do not believe that it as as good as my own breed. Chances are, I would be shown my own ignorance if I tried.
> ...


I stand by the assessment that if a majority of a breed (by definition more than half) is unable or unwilling to do its job, then the breed as a whole is ruined. That doesn't preclude the presence of one or two working lines or working individuals from the junk lines.
Additionally we may be working from different definitions. I do not consider a threat display aggression. But when a dog will bite something that isn't biting him first, that IS aggression.
Unfortunately, I've seen more pug faced mastiffs than ones with proper heads and not just in person, but cruising the Internet. Most of them look like 200# pugs. I love it when I see one that has some length of muzzle and not too much jowl and isn't morbidly obese. 
Yeah all guardian mastives do the same job, what differs is how intensely they do it & how they act when not doing it. The breeds you mentioned have much higher levels of aggression & stranger distrust due to being bred for man work more recently or currently. At & just before the turn of the 20th century both Danes & EMs were the same way, in fact it was common for them to threaten the judges in the show ring (one of the main reasons that personality was bred out). It's like jack russells or fells that can't be trusted around cats and hamsters. When the drive has been bred for up close it can't be eliminated only controlled.
I understand and respect your passion, some of my favorite breeds are all screwed up by stupid breeders and getting worse by the day. Have a good vacation.


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