# Is this harness any good?



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I am wondering what you might think of this harness? the place that sells it is not too far from here. It should be ok to pull a single sleigh, a light wagon, and maybe a few other things? 
http://www.ronshorseharness.com/products/Liberty-Nylon-Horse-Harness-.html
Are there different grade of nylon, like there is with leather?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.samsonharness.com/publications/catalog-lo.pdf


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I have ordered From Ron's and was surprised how well there harnesses are WAY better then I ever dreamed of. Great Price, and had no trouble placing the order or getting it in a timely manner. I sure would recommend them to anybody interested in buying harness ptr anything form them.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Very nice catalogue thank -you for that. Arabian Knight, when you ordered from Ron's did you order the Leather harness or the nylon one?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

minister man said:


> Very nice catalogue thank -you for that. Arabian Knight, when you ordered from Ron's did you order the Leather harness or the nylon one?


I ordered a leather one. Very good quality. Was pleasantly surprised at how nice it was.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I am thinking that you mean the collar and hames one? what do you pull with it? any logs or things like that or just a buggy?


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

so the breast harness will pull a single seat sleigh ok right?


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

A breast harness is OK if you don't do much heavy pulling. If you are in hilly ground I would suggest a collar harness. A collar harness can pull a light load and a heavy load both, but may not look as nice if you are into fancy. What kind of horse are you using?


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I am not into fancy, I just want something practical that I can afford. I am driving a 4 year old retired standardbred race mare.


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## Wanoga (Feb 27, 2007)

I love that it has real buckles and not the conway buckles. I am just a newbie to driving but I like it.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Is this type of collar, hames and traces used only for showing, or can it be used for some driving or light work type stuff?????? It looks so very light


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

It would be fine for light driving as long as it wasn't too hilly or overloaded. It is more of a show collar however.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

Minister Man - check out this link. Collar #42 would be good for all purpose driving like you would be doing with your standardbred. Contact them and they will tell you how to measure. You might talk to them about an adjustable collar that you could vary the fit on. A little more expensive but less than shipping collars back and forth that don't fit. I have collars from there as does one of my friends. I have met the Amish guy and he is very accommodating.

http://www.broadheadcollar.com/


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## Farmerjonathan (Mar 11, 2013)

minister man said:


> Is this type of collar, hames and traces used only for showing, or can it be used for some driving or light work type stuff?????? It looks so very light


That is a standard buggy harness but it is missing the belly band, britching and assorted parts yet. Be excellent for your standardbred horse. 
Conway buckles are the safest buckles to have on a harness. They don't have tongues to catch and release or hold other straps.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks, the problem with the companies form the US is the duty that it costs to bring it into Canada. The problem with that is that no one seems to be able to tell you what that would be until it arrives. 

I ordered a set of clippers for our Poodle from the US because they were 50$ cheaper than I could find around here, even with the shipping. The problem was that when they arrived at our door, they charged me 80$ duty. So I am a little nervous of doing that again.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I know that the collar isn't the entire harness........... I can buy a full harness with a breast collar, and then buy the collar and hames to go with it, then I have harness that will work for which ever angle of draft I need for a low or high whiffle tree. 

I just wondered if this collar was a real collar or a play collar. There is a place that I can buy a harness with a collar like the one in the picture about an hour from here so I could go and get one, when I can afford it.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

I would think they would have other kinds of collars too??


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Unfortunately that is the only kind of collar that they stock. They use to stock farm collars, but stopped because it was too much overhead.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

That is a carriage/buggy collar. It is intended to pull lightweight wheeled vehicles. I'd say the worst thing that can happen is the horse gets a sore from too narrow a bearing surface on the shoulder for the amount of work done. Second-worst thing that can happen is that the thin buggy hames could bend or break under strain.

Neither is the end of the world. A horse can heal from a collar sore. If you do see a sore, don't keep working him in the same way. Lighten the load, re-evaluate the fit, or get a broader-surfaced work collar. 

If you break the hames, then you know you need something more robust next time.


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## Farmerjonathan (Mar 11, 2013)

If you are pulling a cart, buggy or light wagon, that is more than adequate. Do you already have this standardbred? If so, I found taking the horse to a collar shop and letting them fit it for me to be the best when I first started with work harness as a kid. Maybe look into the Draft Horse Journal or Rural Heritage magazines and look at their advertising directories and see if there are any Canadian harness makers advertising.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I do already have the standardbred, she is a 4 year old retired race horse. She retired at 3 I bought her right off the track. 

I would think that a horse could do more light stuff with a collar and hames like the one I pictured than she could do with a breast harness. I mean if I were to yard a stick, it would only be small, and as long as she could pull a little wagon. I was going to spend a lot on a draft style harness so I could cultivate, but there is little chance that a horse that size is going to cultivate much, so why bother spending all that money?


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

Better with that collar than with a breast strap as long as it fits correctly.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

But then again, as I rethink it, a nice wide padded breast strap is easier to fit than a collar. Maybe you would be better off in the long run with it. You can always buy a collar setup later if you really get into it.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I know that I the more I use the mare, the better the harness needs to be, but I can't know how much I can use the mare until I get started with her. 

If I drag wood with breast harness, the whiffle tree on the ground, puts the weight on the back of her neck and rides up to her wind pipe. 

I saw a breast harness somewhere on line that had rings at the points of the shoulders and the traces attached to the rings, so that the angle of draft could be low. That might be ok, if I only yard a stick once in a while............. But then again........ one of those European Brollars might be better than that. I have never even seen one of those before. But as I understand them, it is suppose to take the best of a breast collar and collar and combine them............. But my little pea brain would think that even a very light collar would be better and more comfortable than even a brollar. Don't us suppose? 

I do like your Idea of buying a breast harness to start with to make sure I get her going well and use her, and then all I need to do is buy a collar and hames. The rest of the harness would be the same and I could just interchange the collar/ breast collar depending on what I was pulling at the time. 

Are hames "load rated" so that I would know what their breaking point would be weight wise?


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

Never known them to be load rated. 

Whenever I buy harness I look at it first to see how it is. Some of these mail order harness's are made overseas with questionable quality of leather. My harness for the Haflinger's is nylon. They won't break that. What little wood you are going to be pulling with a singletree, they angle of draft won't make much difference. Just lenghten the strap over the neck.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I have read of people that use a breast harness and when they use a low draft they simply put the traces through the shaft loops to put the weight on the back instead of the neck. Would that sound reasonable? I probably wouldn't yard out more than 6-8 trees a year, and could cut them up so they were only 8 feet long. They wouldn't actually be that heavy really.

As far as seeing the harness, that I why I was looking at the harness at this particular place. It is somewhere I can drive and see the harness. I contacted them and they told me that their Leather harness ( including the pictured collar) comes from India, so it is probably no good at all. They also have nylon harness, the breast plate model is only 165$ I think I will start there and make sure the mare and I can make that all work, before I make any bigger investment. Who knows, it might work out so well, I would buy another standardbred and need a team harness!


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## Farmerjonathan (Mar 11, 2013)

Actually, the Reiman Hitch (Country magazine hitch in the 90's) went from collars to breast collar harness due to sores. Have you or anyone else driven this mare? Even though she was driven on the track, doesn't mean she has driving manners or is safe to drive or drive on the street.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I have been driving her around just on the long reins with a racing harness. I have been dragging a little pallet with a few bales of hay on it. Mostly just working on whoa, walk and standing still, and the traces down by her legs. I am planning to just start her out around the yard on t on the road, but this is why I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on harness, to find out that she isn't going to be able to do a little work for me anyway.


What is the Reiman Hitch (Country magazine hitch in the 90's)? Do you have any pictures? I have never heard of that before.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

What you really want to check with less expensive harness, is quality of the hardware, buckle tongues. Maker can save a bundle with cheap buckles. 

We have carriage horses, who also do Combined Driving, so harness MUST be strong and secure for stresses we put on it. 

Buckles SHOULD be steel, no brass hardware, ALWAYS with steel tongues. Buckle tongue SHOULD have some size to it, not look like a piece of bent wire. Really important because the TONGUE is what takes all the strain of a pull. Weak, wire-type tongues, just bend to go inside out on the buckle, trace or girth comes loose throwing horse off balance, scares him. Easy to get into a wreck then! 

Synthetic harness is not a BAD harness material, it is ALL about how well the harness is made and quality of the hardware. Sorry to say most of the cheaper type, box harness of nylon is stiff, kind of harsh on horse skin, has junky buckles. Seldom fits a REAL horse because the proportions are just "odd".

Have you done any "looking around" like on Craigslist or local tack stores, horse organizations? Maybe a Driving Club in your area? These would have used harness, cheaper stuff, to not have a big investment.

Another material to consider is the Beta-biothane, which can be quite leather looking, totally synthetic for easy care. Getting real popular with the Driving folks, since it doesn't need care that leather does, just hose it off, hang to dry. Not going to last like good leather, well cared for will. But lots less work, so a trade-off.

I would be careful of changing the line of draft on traces too much, moves the strain to other places not designed to handle them. A strap called a "Trace Carrier" has loops on each end, goes thru the backstrap over the hips, so you can put traces thru the loops, keep them high out of her legs with no vehicle attached.

You may want to add length to traces pulling pallets, binder twine with good snap ends, so traces are not close to her heels as she moves out. Prevents her tangling a leg. You don't want the load hitting her from behind with short trace length if she stops quick or load slides forward on smooth surface. We usually add about 2ft of length to traces, hook them to a singletree, which is then attached to "load". In our case the load is a auto tire, for horse to drag. Single tree keeps the trace apart, gives good points to hook traces on, centers the pull for even pulling of load.

I will say that full collars also called neck collars, can be VERY difficult to KEEP fitted correctly to the equine in work. Horse neck sizes change with condition, from winter unfit, to more muscular but smaller sized, as horses get used more. Getting horse skin tougher under the collar, along shoulder fronts, can hard to prevent soring him with use. Old time remedies of Bicks Gall Salve is a good remedy for harness sores, rubbing in salt water on undamaged skin is said to toughen skin.

You just may need to have a couple size collars, to keep horse fitted well, over a season of work. Some folks add pads of stuffed ticking, but they do get sweat soaked, may shift around, so not as good of padding as it started out. As I said, very hard to keep the working horse well fitted to the full collar, because body keeps changing.

She does sound responsive, doing well in your lessons. One of our mottos, is a great WHOA is one of the BEST gaits a Driving horse has! If horse will stop by voice, STAND STILL, wait for you, Horse is a winner!! These are the Brakes, to be used in a crisis, may save you big time later. You just don't say Whoa unless you MEAN to stop, will MAKE horse stop EVERY TIME. Horse learns there is no other option, does as asked. Get another work, Hup is common, for "slow down" command. Having that second word won't make you wear out the Whoa word! 

We have NEEDED the Whoa word and horse responded correctly, saved our bacon!

I expect you can use a WIDE, V-cut breastcollar to do some wood hauling. Wide is easier to pull into, spreads the load. V-cut lets her put her head down for balance to move forward. V-cut doesn't push on her windpipe. Check that breastcollar does not cover point-of-shoulder to rub or interfere with movement. You may need to make smaller loads, but horse is NOT experienced in weight moving yet, so that is fine. Be careful to NOT overload her, she needs to gain confidence in knowing her load WILL move when you ask for Walk. This means MANY trips of successful forward, before adding more to a load. Light loads are good to the beginner animal, she wins moving them. Build her up slowly, reduce loads when ground is rough, wood is green and wet, heavier than dry wood the same size, so she KNOWS she can go forward as asked. 

Overloads can cause rearing, fright that SOMEONE has hold of her so she MUST escape, get her fighting you. Might cause her to just quit, no confidence she can move BIG, HEAVY thing behind. Then she just jigs around, afraid to try pulling. Real easy to wreck horse confidence, so BE CAREFUL and give her small loads for a LONG time.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I grew up with Draft horses working them in the woods and garden, and a bit of haying. My Grandfather always said that WHOA was a very short word, not a long drawn out word like Whooooooooooooooa. His reason always was that Whoa, means RIGHT NOW........ not after they have walked several more steps. Especially with a yarding horse, if the log rolls behind a stump, or you find yourself about to be hit with the log....... Whoa, means stop NOW, and Don't Move, until I tell you too. It has been a process, but my mare will now stop when I speak, still working on the not moving until told to. I guess they don't do a lot of that with race horses. My Grandfather always said, "any fool can make a horse run........ it takes a teamster to make them walk."

Dragging the pallet around I put "s" hooks in the traces so that I could use the draft heel chains to the whiffle tree. That put the whiffle tree about 2 feet behind her. The first two days, I drug the pallet alone for 20 mins. the next day I added two 45 lbs bales of hay, the next day I added two more bales. The next day my daughter sat on the bales of hay, with her legs off the side, so all she had to do was stand up if there was a problem. Then the snow turned to ice and it got too slippery so I had to stop working at it. 


I didn't know what "combined driving" was so I watched a couple of videos, that is amazing...... You would definitely need really good harness and obedient horses to do that!


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Is this the type of breast collar that you are suggesting? The site calls it an "empathy Breast Collar"


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

That would be a good one for you.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I am going to find a harness with that type of breast collar in Canada. There are a couple of harness shops that make harness in Canada, one is quite expensive, but maybe that it what it will cost to get what I want. 

I found a place that sells trace to heel chain adaptors that would be good for yarding.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I bought some of those adapters. Love em. Make sure you get them in stainless. It's worth the extra expense.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

That Empathy breastcollar is what we call the Deep V, and is a really nice design if your animal needs lots of room for windpipe. Does opens the shoulder point area as well. They are not cheap, even with the Amish knock-offs, because the design uses a LOT of material and leaves waste areas you can't use for other things. Has a nicely padded shoulder strap, though some extra padding there for heavy loads would be helpful. Breastcollars put a lot of strain on that shoulder strap area of the neck, so that is why breastcollars are considered "light work" equipment. Traces are usually more horizontal and don't strain the shoulder strap as much. Strain of pull where shoulder strap anchors, could be a point of failure with heavy loads behind horse. Breastcollar advantage of ALWAYS fitting horse, fat or thin, muscled or not, is a big factor in choosing them over full collars to use, for many Driving folks. You get tired of "collecting" full collars to fit horse in every body condition, as well as being pricy.

Here is a photo of an Empathy type on a horse. Horse is a QH, really low set windpipe, so this lets her get head down on the hills, opens her shoulder to reach with going forward.

http://www.metamoraphoto.com/gallery/displayimage-196-9748.html#top_display_media

This is show harness, but shows a V-cut, not as extreme as the Empathy. I see variations of V-cut breastcollars on Amish horses, so they should be available if you ask for them. Again, going to cost more because it uses more material to make. Depending on your horse windpipe, a less extreme V-cut COULD work in moving wood on a sled, pallet, and might be real nice fitting for just going down the road in the wagon.

http://www.metamoraphoto.com/gallery/displayimage-196-9625.html#top_display_media

However pulling weight, she will be dropping her head for balance at some point, as she gains experience, so she needs room for windpipe to not be constricted while moving her loads. You will have to try looking at her from the side, see how she uses her body, head and neck drop while pulling. Dropping neck in a full collar that fits well, has a smooth surface, rounded to be comfortable to windpipe and neck, with the bit extra in length when fitting.

Think of that old Farmer story, about the guy who picked up the calf EVERY day, could still pick it up when calf got QUITE large. Guy did this over long time of calf growing, built his muscles slowly as the calf grew slowly. Same for your horse. She has never been a weight mover before! Speed was her game!! Now with a new job, she has to get developed over time, gain confidence, power and skill to handle her loads.

Forgot to suggest you could make a trace carrier out of an old lead rope or strap, hang it across her hips, attached to the backstrap to stay in place. Trace carrier will lift traces away from her legs during training sessions. We usually have loop ends sitting about at stifles, so traces are not going up, then down to the singletree. Keeps traces from dropping around her feet if she stops, then moves with no pull on traces. Perfect standing come with time!

Our horses have to hitch and do something 100 times here, before they are considered "green" as Driving horses. Then they spend a LOT of time building skills, muscle, vocabulary to understand Driver requests, being exposed to new things they will need to deal with, before they are ever ready to go to a public venue like a picnic drive. May take a year or so of regular works, before they are reliable enough to compete. But we expect our slow time to pay off in being able to use that horse for the next 20 years. Worth taking the time to do it right for us. We do have horses over 25 who can go driving and have a good time using them. Not using them to compete CDE now, but still fun to get them out. We use them often to train the younger animals, show them what a BIG trot is. Real helpful to us that way. Older horses need a job to keep in good shape mentally and physically.

Speaking of loads, I think you are adding weight to fast. She is inexperienced at loads, especially dead weight of the pallet. Cart and race bike at the Track move EASILY on wheels and prepared surfaces. Even with a big, heavy driver, she didn't have to actually WORK to get the vehicles moved or gain speed.

She is TRYING for you, even with weights added daily, so I would suggest you slow DOWN and work her for several days, a week, with current weight. She has to learn to manage that size, before you can increase the loads. Her BODY, back, legs, muscles, needs to start getting stronger to handle that load. At the Gym, you gain by amount of repetitions with small weights, not by starting with 100# or more. Have to BUILD the body slowly, human or horse.

As I said, she sounds like one who will try for you, and that means YOU have to be careful and not ask too much of her. 

Our tire (Pickup truck size) dragging is not heavy, but is ALWAYS dragging, resistant to forward, so horse needs to keep working the entire session and is SLOWLY building his wind and muscles. Never enough to sore him or make him try quitting, keeping him confident his load IS MOVABLE. He can move it walking, trotting, cantering eventually. Our secondary purpose is having him feel the erratic pull of traces as tire swings outward, maybe bumps over a rock or snow lumps, bangs off the fence post to "feel" different for a moment. Tire pull is not always steady, BUT heck, no big deal. Just keep up the steady gait, as handler requested. Benefits come when hitched. Horse is not upset with changes in speed, feel of harness going up and down on him, pulling on him oddly, doing sharp turns where he may be the ONLY one pulling or being asked to not pull at that moment.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks for the great information. I can't remember if I mentioned it or not, but we were working on a snow covered driveway. The snow was plowed off, but I could drag the pallet and hay myself. Not with the daughter sitting on it mind you, but I am in no hurry so I will slow down. 

There is a hand made harness shop about 2 hours from here, and they quoted me a price of about a thousand dollars for a v cut breast plate harness in leather...... it is too pricy for me right now. They would build the breast plate and traces with the heel chains attached for me, which I thought was cool, since I could use them for draft or driving. At this point........... I don't have a wagon either, So I was thinking of only ordering the breast plate and traces, and using the saddle that I have with the racing harness for training, and cleaning up some down wood. Then order the rest of the harness later. However, I will have to ask if it would cost more, if I don't buy it all at one time.

How long do you work a horse on a drag or whatever each day when you are starting them out?


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