# BSZ vs HSZ



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

or Battle Sight Zero vs Hunting Sight Zero

took a Known distance class this last weekend , it was based on the AQT target full size.

most were using a 223/5.56 rifle , we did have one 7.62x39 on day one and he used a 223/5.56 also day 2 when he shot his qualification score he had to borrow rifles as he is currently stationed on base and all his rifles were hundreds of miles away.

BSZ is based on a 25 yard zero with sights 2.5 inches above bore axis and a 223 or 308 round since they follow a very similar trajectory

if you for instance put XM193 5.56 the most common round being used during the class into a ballistics calculator with a 25 yard zero and a sight height over center of barrel of 2.5 inches you would get 
25 = 0
100 = +5.9
200 = +9.8
300 = +7.5
400 = -2.9

while 9.8 is a little bit of a swing for a coyote or deer , on bipeds that are approximately 18 wide by 24 high in the torso it leaves plenty of wiggle room to score a hit without changing your sight all the way from 0 to 400 yards 

VS hunting sight zero where beyond 250 or 300 wind can really come into effect and your target is a 50 pound Coyote or a 10 pound wood chuck and not a 180 pound biped 

where using a varmint bullet like a 55gr soft point at 3200fps a 50/225 yard zero

you would be 

50 = 0
100= +1.5
150 = +1.9
200 = +1
225 = 0
250 = -1.4
275 = -3.2
300 = -5.5

knowing your repeat can be very handy and simplify zero verification , if you know you are say 50 and 225 while you need to confirm it the first time at both distances , later when you want to re-verify and the ammo has not changed you could fire just a few rounds at 50 yards but you need to be close to cutting one hole on or it isn't really a zero , having this also allows it to work for re-zero on windy days or at ranges where you can't shoot distance. since even a 15 mph wind has almost no effect on a bullet in the first 25 to 50 yards 

with a 3-9 power scope you can generally see a bullet hole on a sheet of paper through the scope at 25-50 yards fire one round then take aim from a rested position on the hole you made if your zero is on the holes should be touching.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm thinking 6.8 Rem would be very close to your numbers.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Good info, what ballistic software are you using??

To me it really depends on your sights/optic. Do a 25y, 50y or even 100y zero using a scope with a BDC reticle and you've pretty much screwed yourself out of some functionality. Most are set for 100 or 200y zeros and 50y increments so you're better off zeroing at the prescribed distance. You can accomplish the same close in zero verification by just knowing where your POI VS POA is for the closer ranges. 

For my defensive carbine with a RDS I use a 50 yard zero (last couple carbine classes I've taken, instructors were pushing the 50y VS 25y for some reason), for my coyote AR I use a straight 200 yard zero with a 1-6X Leupold with CDS dial and ballistic reticle. The BDC reticle when zero'd at 200 gives me 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 550 and 600y holds with 5MPH wind corrections that are actually pretty accurate. The CDS turret was custom made by Leupold to match the ballistics of my favorite handload. 

I used to be big on zeroing using MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) based on"X" Kill Zone. Is this what you mean by a "Hunting Zero"?? Now pretty much go with a standard 200y for everything and just remember my drops for the greater distances. Makes it easier for me than remembering a dead hold out to 330yards on an 8" kill zone on my .270 and 350y on my .300Win with 10". My laser range finder computes drops based on calliber/BC and MV anyway for the long shots as long as I have a set normal distance (100 or 200) zero. 

One thing I've found is to be somewhat critical of when using "theoretical" zeros before actually testing them at distance, which is why I really prefer an actual 200y Vs. 1.x high etc. at 100 or in this case 25 or 50. In my experience the paper ballistics seldom equal the real deal. The further out you can be spot on, the more accurate your drops will be as you go further out. Also, when playing the LR game chronographing your load is essential and using a temp stable powder to reduce velocity swings. 

YMMV,

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

yes hunting sight zero is based on the kill zone of your target and max up and down with no correction would still put you on 

I can completely understand the 50/225 type zero for a carbine class , or 3 gun because of the 200 yard range limit then a 100 up and 200 yard down zero would make sense , they want you hitting precisely at any range generally between about 25 yards and 200 or 250 yards they are not trying to keep you on an AQT at 300 and 400 yards , you probably use a single point or something other than a loop sling and you sling is more to hold your rifle to the body than to steady the rifle for shooting.

I absolutely agree about choreographing the load a lab radar you can get an accurate muzzle velocity just a few inches ahead fo the muzzle or a magneto speed that you can strap to the end of the barrel and get a accurate muzzle velocity then run your data would get you on and keep you on target once the MV is known and the sight height measured the ballistic calculators are surprisingly close 

when I am online I use the calculator on the Hornady website frequently , I also have the Federal cartridge calculator on my phone to try it and the strelok free version I prefer the strelok to the federal because it remembers my load and gun , you can build gun 1 gun 2 and so on with the load and velocity data for that combination


the scope I used was a vortex crossfireII standard reticle no BDC 

the point of all this being is that it all converts the skills on the reduced targets , the 25 yard AQT 

I only shot one other time past 200 yards , it wasn't all that successful I mostly just walked the round into the target to figure hold over , being that I can only shoot 200 when I am alone at the range as it requires locking the gate and shooting from a few feet in front of the gate into the far berm to get 200.
mostly I shoot at 100yards or 22lr at small bore silhouettes 40-60-77-100 meters , and reduced Appleseed AQT at 25 meters 82 feet.

I went out on the range Saturday morning with a sheet I printed off from the Hornady ballistic calculator for a 25 yard zero and my round and proceeded having basically never shot past 200 yards to first score a hit on my first cold bore shot @300 then fired a qualifying score , then I did it again , and again . the times I came up short I know why I missed the time limit at 200 yards because I got tired and sore and had difficulty on the transition to seated and getting into position.

Fatigue got me , later in the day , I was working on 2 1/2 hours sleep having just worked 12 days strait and even then I was only 1 or 2 rounds on target from another qualifying score.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC,



> I can completely understand the 50/225 type zero for a carbine class , or 3 gun because of the 200 yard range limit then a 100 up and 200 yard down zero would make sense , they want you hitting precisely at any range generally between about 25 yards and 200 or 250 yards they are not trying to keep you on an AQT at 300 and 400 yards , you probably use a single point or something other than a loop sling and you sling is more to hold your rifle to the body than to steady the rifle for shooting.


Honestly difference in zeros is a personal thing, I get where the Appleseed guys are going, but a lot of guys have moved beyond the standard military 25 meter zero. The 50y and 25y both go out to about 400 the difference being the 50y utilizes a smaller "kill zone" to get there. This pic and the video go a long ways in explaining it:















The 25y was designed to give the maximum PBR on a human sized target with the M16, if a smaller target or kill zone is required, it's often not the best option. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I keep things sighted in to be within 2 inches up 2 inches down and get maximum range because the chances I am shooting past 200 are slim and if I am I should have time to look down at my hold overs for farther out

the hole purpose of Appleseed is to rekindle the flame of liberty in the citizenry and make better citizens , may seem odd, better citizens through marksmanship, shooting is the lure and the binder and the history and heritage work to get them thinking and make them better citizens and not subjects.

when you have a bunch of different guns show up on the line , some irons some optics the 25 yard zero works really well to let them set the AQT on the front post and hold 6 O'clock for 1,2,3 then move up for 4 where they have more time.

in a perfect world a quick velocity messurement would be taken then a chart plotted and the best zero arrived at for the rifle/ammo combo in a few minutes then shot and confirmed at 100 yards that the round matches the data derived

my vortex scope does not have exposed turrets so my plan is to re zero but leave my turrets set so that zero on the dial is my 25 yard then write the 50/225 zero number on a small piece of tape inside the cap

I could also zero at 200 or 1 inch high at 100 this could also be described as a 57/200 zero (with my load and gun) but that leaves me with a 7 inch hold over at 300 and I feel like giving up a 1/2 of an inch at a hundred yards and going with a 50/225 zero to get a 5.5 inch hold over at 300 yards rather than a 7 inch is a fair compramise and an easier place to get a repeat zero but it is a tiny difference really. and it means a little longer range without figuring in for drop.


it really is a personal choice some numbers based on xm193 at it's labled velocity 3165
and it matters if you will be mostly shooting inside 300 or if your trying to get 100-400 and it looks like the data table will be in the next post


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC,

7" going to 300 from 200 is about the norm for a 3000 FPS bullet with an average BC, which is why I like a 200y zero for hunting & precision rifles. 

If your scope is a duplex, try using the junction of the fat and thin cross hairs at 100 to see what that relates to in MOA. That will allow you to use that point, and the half way point as a couple drops at that correlating distance. It will also give you a point for wind holds also. I'm guessing your reticle is on the 2nd focal plane (stays the same size as you zoom in and out), IF so you'll have to try this at max zoom. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

View media item 57
well they changed the way to upload photos , but I figured it out.

I made this data table to illustrate why one zero over the other , what it illistrated for me was 100yards , probably the most common hunting zero is definitely the most worthless zero there is and that different cartridges in different guns benefit from a different zero, putting your data down on shows this

200 is definitely one of the most use full zeros for hunting but as I saw the data of 25 and 50 I started playing with the half way point 37.5 yes an odd number but interesting data , then I tried 31.25 the half again to see what it looked like.

look at the 37.5 yard zero on the 223 , that would have you on a coyote from 0 to 325 yards staying in the 4 up 4 down.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC,

My Sierra ballistic software lets you specify a "kill zone" in inches, then based on your cartridge/rifles ballistics calculate a MPBR and a zero distance based off that. It's a pretty cool feature.









While it specifies a 222y zero, it's just as easy to use the POIs at 100 or 200 to get there, since there aren't many 222y ranges around and lazering in a target at exactly 222 is a PITA. Actually come to think of it, my berm is about 230ys from my bench so I could make it. But here's my standard 200y zero:










and my drop at 250 is just a little over an 1.2" more and then my BDC reticle is in synch. I lose about 15y in MPBR on my 4" Coyote kill zone, so for me the standard 200y makes sense. 

I also wouldn't poo-poo the 100y zero because depending on your terrain it can make sense. Buddy of mine only hunts wooded for deer, longest shot for him is well under 100y, but he sometimes needs precision to get those "thread the needle" shots with branches etc. so a trajectory that's -3 or +3 over his sight line might not cut it. 

I think the correct answer for which zero distance is best is......."it depends". 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

it definitely does depend and most of where we hunt it is 30-70 yard shots so a 50 yard zero would be very appropriate

I have chosen this a 37 yard zero with my 300 black out 110gr v-max the repeat is at 167 yards 
the highest it goes is just less than 2 inches above the center of the scope that is 2.6 above the bore axis it is .6 inches low at 50 yards 1.89 high at 100 yards and 2.8 low at 200 or almost exactly 1.5 minutes the first hash the next hash is 4.5 minutes , then 7.5 minutes and the top of the lower post 11 minutes 
I wouldn't have needed the bdc reticle but the cost was exactly the same as the standard and I was interested in trying this and the possibility of ranging based on the MOA hashes left right they are 2moa hashes .

it is a 2-7 second focal plane 

I have a few orchards where I could get out to 200 yards


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Problem with BDC reticles is the crosshairs will always be your zero but the tic marks change with magnification.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Problem with BDC reticles is the crosshairs will always be your zero but the tic marks change with magnification.


Agreed, but probably 90% of the time you're longest shots will be taken with your highest zoom, and the majority of BDC scope are for hunting big game with a pretty generous kill zone. No doubt for serious LR shooting a FFP mil dot scope is superior due to it's flexibility and precision, but the BDCs seem to be popular for a reason. Also a lot of hunters don't sweat having a dope chart, nor are they going to count MILs or MOAs to get the right hold over.

This is my favorite LR reticle on FFP, especially when combined with matching .mil adjustments:










Great for LR holdovers and wind, but a little busy for popping a deer at normal distances. I've shot BDCs (Leupolds) out to 600 and found them to be pretty accurate.

Chuck


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> View attachment 62067
> 
> 
> it definitely does depend and most of where we hunt it is 30-70 yard shots so a 50 yard zero would be very appropriate
> ...


There was a cool article I read a while back where the author used a similar technique and by tweaking a little he came up with different holdover values for his BDC indexes by changing the magnification on his SFP scope. Like your 203y holdover line @ 7X "could" be 175y @ 5X.

I've never played with it, but it does make sense and might be worth the effort if you don't have a MIL dot on a FFP. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

if I buy the not free version of Strelok it will let me calculate that at different powers of magnification but not sure I need that 

the realistic range that I might shoot with the 300bo is probably not much more than 300 yards , and with this I have 37/167 zero 1.89 inches high in the middle and a 203 yard tick for anything I feel is 200ish split the difference between 203 and 268 and it is good for 225ish because there is less than a minutes difference between 200 and 225 , less than a minutes difference between 250 and 268 .32 minutes difference between 268 and 275 . 300 is 6.14 minutes of correction so nearly even distance between 4.5 and 7.5 the 2nd and 3rd hash 350 is about even distance between the 7.5 and 11moa at 9 minutes of correction and 11 minutes will just have to do for a near split between 375 at 10.55 minutes and 400 at 12.18

if it were a first focal plane besides costing 3-4 time more it would stay the same through all the magnifications but this was 129 dollars with or without the BDC while I would have loved to get a mil hash or moa hash for 129 no one seems to offer this 

and besides targets to verify all of this and put it in my log book it would be extremely unlikely I would be shooting beyond 150 other than a location or two and there it would be just about 200 even across an orchard that is 75 x 200 yards most of my 26 years of hunting this area we were shotgun only and we made do getting deer most years on shots under 75 yards I have an uncle that probably never shot farther than 50 yards on a deer , I put a 2-7x32 scope on my shotgun and could make the 75-80 yard threading the needle shots to bring home more deer than anyone else in the past 15 years . I have one cousin who hunts with a rifled slug barrel and can make shots to 125 or so but my slugs were 100 yards on a calm day and 75 in wind , beyond that I might have a perfect hold on a standing deer and still not hit it , is that ever frustrating , you can see it you have a rested hold and slugs are going every where but where you want them I had one doe stand there looking right at me as 3 slugs went by her , I tried the same shot at the range on a windy day all I was doing was trying to hit a 2 liter bottle at 110 yards , couldn't in 5 rounds they were all around it moved it up to 100 and same thing , moved it up to 75 and one shot and it was done
the same 2-7 nikon that is on my shotgun was on this 300 until 2 weeks ago when I took it off to put on a 22 for my son and ordered the 2-7 votex with the BDC after seeing my dads 2-7 vortex with the basic reticle last week he was trying it on his shotgun he tried a saddle mount on his 1100lt 20ga , it didn't work well so rather than drill and tap it he was impressed enough with the 300 that he ordered up the parts and is building one just like mine , my 300bo will hold a 1.25 to 1.5 minute group at 100 yards and that is probably more my ability to see to hold on a 1 inch target dot at 100 yards than the gun because it will cut one ragged hole at 50
the 300 should be good for him as he gets older and with several spinal fusions and a shoulder replacement recoil was an issue for him short light easy to carry , light recoil


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC,
Agree 100% with your reasoning, which is why I separate the hunting requirements from the precision rifle requirements. My backyard range goes out to 800y, from my back deck I have steel tgts at 407y and 547y. I consider 547y and extreme hunting shot that I wouldn't take unless it's all I had, had a great rest, conditions (wind) are good and it's a very, very, good buck. I routinely make those shots with a BDC reticle on both my .270W and 300W Mag. 

IMHO, the Mil dot stuff is great for it's purpose, but within "normal" hunting distances it just clutters stuff up and slows things down as I try to find the 1.4 MIL mark rather than just hold on the 3rd bar of BDC reticle. As we can see on the pic of the MILRAD reticle I posted, there's still some "guestimation' required anytime you have a solution with a decimal point. 

BTW, I've been very impressed with Vortex. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

this is my 4th Vortex product and the customer service department is about 30 miles away should I need it.

I am looking at their 8x36 monocular with milrads for ranging when we do unknown distance , I like the idea that I can carry it around with me and practice ranging and not have to point a gun at anything to get the range , this will open up practice time to most any where most any time , I like my standard reticle on the vortex 3-9x50 that is mounted on my 223wylde heavy barrel upper that I built to appleseed and practice . I have been out to 500 with it on a 10 inch plate 9 power seems to be enough and I like the 3x for the 100 yard standing stage while there are scopes with greater range of power variation but they tend to be much more expensive. I picked up the 3-9x50 on a good sale for 120 last year they seemed to be clearnicing out the standard reticle and I see midway not selling the standard reticle on the crossfire II 3-9x50
some day when my kids aren't eating a Razor HD in groceries every month I might be able to get one.

the 223 is nice in that with my reloads I can shoot all weekend for under a hundred dollars.

my club range is only out to 200 , once the corn is down I have a friend with a farm a few miles from the house were we can shoot to 400 with a good hill behind the target


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC,

For years the standard issue sniper scopes were 10X and they worked just fine, don't know why 1X less would be a huge handicap. Do the Vortex guys have like a "Cabela's Bargain Basement" at their shop????/

.223 is probably the rifle caliber I shoot the most. I've got the .223 Wylde 1:8 chambered upper I built for yotes and 3 gun, but my all time favorite to practice with is a REM Mod 700 XCR "Tactical" that wears a 6.5-24X Leupold MK4 with TMR reticle. Mine's the original model with the 40X trigger and HS Precision stock. With 69grn handloads it's good out to 600 and even with the match bullets isn't hard on the wallet. Big plus, it's got the recoil of a standard .22 due to weight. A couple of us put together heavy barreled .223s with .mil scopes for shooting mid-range steel because they're fun and cheap to shoot. Due to the light recoil you can spot your own splash. I wish it had a 1:8, but the 1:9 does "OK" with 69grns at distance and is very accurate with Nosler 55 BTs for yokes and muskrats. Maybe when this barrel is shot out I'll put something faster on it.

With laminated dope chart on the stock:









Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't know if vortex sells anything from their showroom. I have not stopped there.

I am not at all surprised to see the dope chart , but I am surprised to see no riser on the stock to get your eye up to the scope level.

the new scope came with a sticker that is a diagram of the reticle with points to label the 4 hold over hashes that fits in the scope cap , now I need a set of of those nifty vortex scope caps


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Old picture, riser's there now......I'm actually looking at a shorter set of rings to let me drop the scope down a little, rather than keep the riser. 

As for the Vortex scope caps, I've got a set on my Razor HD and they're pretty nice, not as nice as my Leupold aluminum covers but they weren't $70+ a set either. I printed smaller dope charts with holdovers and taped them inside the Objective flip caps. A little more economical especially if you change loads periodically, the Vortex guys want $10 a disk. 

Chuck


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Since we are on optics and vortex was brought up, if your a vet you get 40% off 2 items a year I believe. I have shot with Burris, leupold, vortex, swarvowski, s and b and night force. Might force is way over priced for the clarity personally. S and b speaks for itself. I would say at least 2/3 of my optics at this point are vortex because they are quality and quite honestly they stand behind their product as does Burris.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I did end up spending the 11.99 on Strelok Pro , it has several features the free version doesn't , being able to change targets is very nice 
calculating for each half power what the hold overs would be on the second focal plane scope 
being able to have more than 5 rifles or loads 
and other things that make it convenient.

setup and helped my dad sight in his new 300aac blk-out today , he liked mine so much he ordered all the parts and built one identical to it well almost
he has the vortex 2-7x32 v-plex reticle and a different scope mount we set his up for a 50 yard zero , he is 1 3/4 high at 100 and should be right back at zero at 150 he has never shot a deer past about 60 yards so that will have him good for anything he would shoot 

he is loving it , set him up with a bipod and sock of rice to help him get a steady hold for sighting in he is coming from a shotgun with slugs , but as he gets older and has had a few surgeries including back , neck and shoulder he really likes not getting beat up by the gun.

he was shooting some nice groups , he had one at a hundred that was 4 rounds but only 2 holes , one hole was bigger than 30 cal about 50 cal , the other was about a half inch left so he figures he pulled that one a bit


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC sounds like a great deal, and it also sounds like the .300 BO is about perfect for your dad. Congrats on finding something hat works for him.

Got out today and gave a couple Ruger RPRs a workout on steel from 200-760 yards. Mine in .243 and my friend Al's in 6.5 that we sighted in yesterday and now has a total of 60 rds through it.

Pretty decent conditions; variable wind 8-12 MPH and 11:00 to 9:00 warm at 87. I managed to go the day with one miss and that was a wind call at 760, "zigged" when I should have "zagged". I was very pleased with all 1st round hits (6 targets). I've been working on this pretty hard by keeping an accurate log book and trying to catch as many wind changes as I can. Al and his 6.5 did quite well especially for a guy that had zero dope and was shooting of a ballistic program.

I was having an issue with my dope chart, so I decided to re-zero this morning in dead calm and made sure I accurately captured temp, pressure and angle to zero tgt. Seems my zero was .3 MILs off and it was carrying fwd and resulted in high shots at distance. After this morning my dope was very close, no more than .1-.2 off which resulted in the 1st round hits.

Pics to prove it happened.....

Mobile shooting platform and RPR in 6.5 in action:










760y target berm (there's another target lower at 540y that's "bermless" and a ****** to see with the naked eye):









625y TGTs (upper right corner) and theres a single at 457 just to the left of the spruce.










300 & 407 tgts:









Anyhow we had a blast literally.

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I like the mobile shooting platform I have been ruffing it just laying on the ground with my shooting mat , but we have a lot fewer things that bite and sting around here 

it was hot here Saturday 93 that is a scorcher for Wisconsin in mid September , it didn't bother me much I got acclimated to the heat more this summer but my son and dad were hot, but at least the wind was calm in the morning ,not that 200 yards is all that far but I was able to verify my earlier data before my dad got to the range I have to wait for the corn to get out of the field before I can go any further out 

I did discover some of my cut down 223 brass to make 300 , had too thick of walls , the A USA head-stamp armscorp that was not supposed to be an issue , was , there wasn't that much of it , and a few WCC that seem to be thicker 
they all chamber but if you have to eject the round without firing it , it is hard now I am checking each head stamp if it is thicker than .011 or .012 after sizing and trimming , it is headed to the scrap bucket 


I am interested in your data collection , I am looking to do the same once the corn is down , not so far out but to 400 maybe 500 if I can get a spot to get out that far. 
do you use a printed data sheet or a book or just make notes ?

another question , do you have a preference for steel color that makes it easier to see in the scope 
some people seem to like white , I think black is the easiest to spot hit on and gives good contrast but I don't know how it is any further than 200 , when I was at appleseed the steel was all red , not to hard to see in the scope , but hard to spot your hit


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GPC, you the chiggers and ticks around here make you think twice about spending a lot of time prone, especially when we're shooting out of a hayfield. For 100 - 300 I had a concrete pad poured for my bench and had it made large to have a spot for position shooting. We actually waited yesterday for the wind to come up (of course it also got hot) so we could test holds etc.

I and the guys I shoot with are using analog printed data sheets in notebooks with other pertinent data. Mostly recording weather (wind dir, speed, temp, pressure and TGT inclinations) and the 1st shot data and comparing "should hit" with "did hit" along with "calls", then subsequent shots. For "calls" depending on time I might shade a TGT or hold off using my reticle, especially if the wind is twitchy. So it's good to record where I held VS where I hit. There are a couple very good printable forms on line, just search for "snipers" logbook. Here's the one I use (not all the pages):

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Recreation/AMA/SniperLogBook20081217.pdf

As for steel color, with an optic it's not that important unless you've got a boat load of mirage. Generally black is much easier to see the splash, but I also shoot with irons so I tend to paint to be in contrast with the background and not worry too much about the splash. With swingers you'll also get an audible.

1/2 of my rifle plates are actually pistol plates that I hang when shooting distance using a Hangfast TGT hanger. These are really well designed and work very well utilizing a simple "T" post:

https://hangfasttargets.com/about










So on rifle days when I want to set up something different I just pound some posts in and hang a couple tgts. I've also got some "T" posts pounded in as doubles, so I can change the tgt orientation just by moving the hanger to the other post so it's squared to where I'm shooting from.The TGT protects the hanger, and the T posts are cheap. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I like the hangers going to have to get some of those.
I found some of the heavy duty tie down straps on the highway looked like they were almost new but missing the ratchet side about 25 feet each , I cut lengths from them then use fender washers and carriage bolts to use them to hang plates , I leave them long enough that I can put them over a pipe or board or anything to make a rail to hang them from then slip the plate through the loop they ring and swing well. and don't cost me anything till they are used up ,because they are behind the steel they don't seem to get chewed up much but I have only been using them a short time.

I had downloaded that log book already and printed off some of the log pages I have't had time to get out and shoot much more I did find an error in the MIL to MOA page they list MOA =1.145" @ 100 yards but it is really 1.0472" at 100 yards I am still doing everything in MOA for now.

I did get out Tuesday evening for a bit to adjust zero on my 223 wyld form the 25 yard zero for appleseed to something a bit lower of an arc for hunting , I did note the difference so that I can quickly go back and forth a 44 and 265 zero is what I settled on . but I need to reconfirm the adjustment with a few more rounds I was loosing my light.

now I just need to get out and make data


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you know I have to laugh every time I hear a country song where they talk about rolling in the grass on a southern summers eve , I am thinking yeah right that may make for a good song but , getting eaten alive by chigers , ticks and skeetes not to mention running into a copper head , rattler , black widow or brown reckluse has got to be a real mood killer for cut off shorts and tank tops.


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