# One DEAD Goat & one goat with LISTERIOSIS!!



## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

When it rains it pours. I haven't posted for a while. Any advice anyone has on the Listeriosis case is much appreciated. We have been so busy doctoring goats. We lost our Fullblood Boer buckling...the red one. He's the one I posted the picture of a couple of months ago. He wouldn't grow. We took him to the vet and she treated him for white muscle disease just in case but was leaning towards a congenital defect. Hmmmm, I should call that breeder huh? I gave almost $400 for him as a bottle baby....stupid me. I'll never do that again. A few people tried to tell me. :shrug: Anyway, we found him dead a coupld of days ago. At least the vet is interested enought that she is doing an autopsy on him for free. Meanwhile, we are treating one of our $600 show does for Listeriosis....the encephalitis type. It is AWFUL!! Does anyone have advice on how much of the LA-200 they have given and how often for treatment of Listeriosis? I'm just curious. I know it takes a ridiculous amount of antibiotics to cure this. I'm giving electrolytes by syringe and have her some pureed green beans today too. I Nutridrenched her the last couple of days. She swallows pretty well considering. I just take my time with it. Also, she is pregnant. She hasn't aborted them so far. She started acting weird Saturday morning. She had walked up to a cattle panel fence and put her mouth around part of the fence, like a bit in a horse's mouth and she was pushing against it. It was weird. Well, by evening she has swaying, pushing her head against walls and was favoring one side. Then she couldn't blink and her lip started hanging and drool was coming out. By late evening, she was down. It all happened so fast. We didn't get treatment to her as early as we should have because we thought this was injury induced at first. This is our first experience with this awful disease. Anyway, we have chosen to use LA-200 and I have B complex but it isn't the fortified one that is the high amount. We've actually been chopping up our own B-100's and mixing it into water and drenching her with that. I know it isn't as good but it is what we have and then I'm injecting her with the B complex also. Even if she makes it, won't all this agressive treatment make her lose her babies? Am I just wasting my time? Her temp. was just over 105 degrees on Sunday, I think. Tonight, it was 101 degrees. She is down still but reacts when I give her the LA-200 shots. I thought she was going to get clear up on all four feet. That stuff must hurt awful. Oh, I've been keeping vaseline on her open eye. It has already clouded over though. I didn't realize she wasn't blinking. I have a fan on her and fly spray b/c they were all over her. She did potty a little bit ago, I noticed. I was glad b/c I was worried about that. Well, that is it. We are super discouraged right now. My husband is wondering why he got into the goat business if it is going to be like this. Are we having some awful luck or what? The bottle baby was poor judgement on spending so much on him but this goat was a good buy. She is gorgeous, from great bloodlines and we hate to lose her. We also have her twin sister, who is fine. Any comments are appreciated on this matter. Thanks so much.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

listeriosis treatment is thiamine or fortefied b-complex in high dose. if you can go to your feed store they most likely will have it on hand. 
i would start treatment right away.
polio is treated with penecilllin and b-complex
was this doe tested for cae? for me it sounds like a little bit as if she had a stroke. with listeriosis she will loose the kids.
b-complex oral will not do any good.


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

NO, NO, NO! Be VERY careful of giving incorrect information!!!!

Listeriosis is treated with antibiotics!! Listeriosis CAN lead to Polio, but the treatment for JUST listeriosis is antibiotics. Penicillan does NOT cross the blood brain barrier very well so it is NOT a good antibiotic to use for bacterial brain diseases. Oxytetracycline is preferred as it is better at crossing this blood/brain barrier. Sometimes Dexamethasone can be used to get a good start with reducing the swelling in the brain (swelling is always the first thing to occur when an infection like this starts), BUT make sure you discuss this with your vet FIRST! The number one issue in treating Listeriosis is reducing that swelling. The head pressing, weaving and staggering are beginning signs of this swelling and these can progress to seizures. Talk to your vet about the maximum safe DAILY dosage of LA200 for this particular animal (you want to try to keep a regular high blood level of the drug in order to combat this disease).

You can also easily be dealing with a high fever with listeriosis so check your doe's temp and if the temp is very high you can give some banamine for temperature relief (a high temp also affects the brain and you want to eliminate as much of the stuff the brain is dealing with as possible).

Strokes in animals are rare.......tho' Listeriosis sometimes gives the impression of a stroke. The possibility of the doe loosing her kids is high but not a given. It all depends on how quickly the doe is treated and how severely she is affected.

Polio is usually a secondary complication to an infection and the only reason you might consider using antibiotics in the case of Polio is to treat the underlying condition. In this case you know what the underlying condition is (listeriosis) so if you're giving antibiotics for the listeriosis then you've got that area under control. To treat the polio you need to use Thiamine. You CAN get thiamine in to the animal by using B-Complex. This will get you by (VERY short term) until you're able to get some Thiamine. In order to get enough Thiamine in to the system of an animal with polio using B-Complex you would be overdosing the other vitamins. I can't remember the B-Complex dosage off the top of my head BUT I do remember that the maximum dosage is 6cc regardless of how big the animal is. You need Thiamine to treat Polio and you can only purchase that from a vet.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

If it were me I would want something more than LA 200, unless it's the only thing you've got. This is a serious disease that needs heavy duty meds from a vet, including something to combat swelling as was stated. I had a good friend's doe come down with this and she required intense treatment. I would definitely get thiamine into this goat as well as the antibiotics. It took a few weeks but the doe did recover and in fact had kids this year. Best of luck to you!


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## tltater (Jul 13, 2004)

Sorry you are going through all of this. It is hard sometimes but I haven't had to deal with anything like this in 2 years. It isn't something normal that happens or common...just one of those things. Anyway, here is an article that helped me. I didn't have a vet that worked with goats so I did all the research myself and went to my vet that I worked for and had him give me the meds I felt I needed to battle this. I used PenG and a very high dose of Vit.B. I didn't have thiamine on hand at the time either but I do now! After giving a very high dose of the vit. B, the change in her was amazing. I would definately reccomend getting the thiamine ASAP, as this will probably be the only thing that turns her around. Goat polio and listeriosis present themselves very similar and are hard to distinguish between the two but with the fever I would agree on the listeriosis(and I am nooooo expert!).

Here is the link to the article on goatworld: http://www.goatworld.com/articles/listeriosis_gwmf.shtml 

I hope you can get this under control soon. I know how horrible it is to feel so helpless. I am also sorry about your little buckling. Being responsible for all these lives can at times be very trying...but in my opinion, well worth it.

Take care,
Tracy
Southwestern, NY


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i had three kids last year that where treated as i suggested in my post and they fully recovered.and even if strokes are rare they can happen. i know of at least two confirmend cases.


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

> NO, NO, NO! Be VERY careful of giving incorrect information!!!!
> 
> Listeriosis is treated with antibiotics!! Listeriosis CAN lead to Polio, but the treatment for JUST listeriosis is antibiotics. Penicillan does NOT cross the blood brain barrier very well so it is NOT a good antibiotic to use for Listeriosis. Oxytetracycline is preferred as it is better at crossing this blood/brain barrier. Sometimes Dexamethasone can be used to get a good start with reducing the swelling in the brain (swelling is always the first thing to occur when an infection like this starts), BUT make sure you discuss this with your vet FIRST! The number one issue in treating Listeriosis is reducing that swelling. The head pressing, weaving and staggering are beginning signs of this swelling and these can progress to seizures. Talk to your vet about the maximum safe DAILY dosage of LA200 for this particular animal (you want to try to keep a regular high blood level of the drug in order to combat this disease).


very true. go to www.tenneseemeatgoats.com and read articles.


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

susanne said:


> i had three kids last year that where treated as i suggested in my post and they fully recovered.and even if strokes are rare they can happen. i know of at least two confirmend cases.


Yep.....strokes CAN happen, BUT.......don't always look for zebras in your back yard......you MIGHT find one but it's very unlikely.

Yours may have been treated as you suggested, BUT you have your treatments backward......Listeriosis is NOT treated with Thiamine.....it is treated with antibiotics. Polio is treated with Thiamine. AND......you can overdose on B complex and STILL not get enough Thiamine it is NOT something you can give large doses of (you CAN kill an animal by giving too much!).

I think you only have a partial understanding of what was done to treat your kids. What YOU were dealing with may not have been Listeriosis but rather Polio resulting from another reason. A change in weather or a cold can even cause an outbreak of Polio in kids.......it doesn't have to be listeriosis. So treating with Thiamine helped to cure your Polio issues and the PenG helped to clear up whatever the underlying issue might have been. 

PenG does NOT cross the blood/brain barrier well at all and is almost useless when treating issues affecting the brain (Listeriosis included). LA200 is usually the first thing that a vet goes to when treating these types of issues (rarely do you need to go to the "big guns" tho' I can say I personally don't know what else they might use for "big guns" as we've never had to progress beyond LA200......it always took care of the issue - in horses OR goats).

I too dealt with a bad case of Listeriosis last year. Nothing seemed untoward in the evening but the next morning I had three VERY sick does. Two of them were unable to stand and the third had progressed to convulsions. They WERE dealing with some Polio issues due to the Listeriosis, but the #1 culprit was the listeriosis. LA200, and injectible dex brought them around and a few thiamine shots were given to combat the Polio (older animals don't tend to develop polio as easily or as seriously as young kids) and a little banamine to bring down their temps. All three of the does aborted and the cause of the listeriosis has been eliminated (a haylage type product). I've also dealt with Polio in kids (not my own, but in another herd) as the result of a shipping fever outbreak and it took FAR more thiamine to treat these kids than it did to treat the adult does (the adults were caught early however).


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

My vet has said that you canot overdose a goat on B vitamins because they are water soluable. For neurological problems, I use both ocytetracycline and thiamin. I have these on hand and administer at the first sign of a problem. With kids, this is sometimes as basic as staying back and crying rather than following the herd to food. When this happens, I'll first administer the thiamin and if the goat doesn't respond within a couple hours, I'll follow that with Biomycin and Banamine. My vet recommends Banamine to reduce the brain swelling. As far as the dead buckling goes, if the autopsy determines the kid died from a congenital defect, any reputable breeder should willingly replace the animal. Buying bottle raised kids isn't generally a bad thing if it means CAE prevention is being practiced.


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

Maybe less of a chance of overdosing in a healthy animal but with listeriosis you're talking about an animal that is impared and overdosing is an increased risk. 

Overdoses of B2 (Riboflavin) can cause anemia & low blood pressure. 
Overdoses of B6 can cause neurological symptoms as well as lowered blood pressure.
Overdoses of B12 can cause folic acid absorption issues and heart palpitations.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

How is listeriosis contracted?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

ForMyACDs said:


> Maybe less of a chance of overdosing in a healthy animal but with listeriosis you're talking about an animal that is impared and overdosing is an increased risk.
> 
> Overdoses of B2 (Riboflavin) can cause anemia & low blood pressure.
> Overdoses of B6 can cause neurological symptoms as well as lowered blood pressure.
> Overdoses of B12 can cause folic acid absorption issues and heart palpitations.



reactions if overdosed for a long time period.
talked to my vet about it when treated my kids last year


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

OK, well, the doe passed this evening. It has been very sad to watch. She was a gorgeous Fullblood Boer doe, just a yearling. We paid $600 for her. She is from show lines. What a crummy deal. That is about $1000 worth of goats we lost over the weekend not to mention the kids she was going to have in the fall. She was about 2 months bred. So, next time (God forbid there is a next time) we'll know more about what to look for and be prepared. BTW, from what I've read, Polio is the one that more often affects the younger goats and Listeriosis affects adults plus is harder to treat successfully. I sure hope I don't have any more issues this year. That was awful. I really tried to save her. Her temp was getting lower and lower. I guess I should have known she was dying. Yeah, if the buckling had a congenital defect, the breeder should replace the animal. I'm going to give the vet a week and then call in there and see if it has been done yet. She said that she would give me a report when she is done. I hope he didn't die of a severe selenium deficiency. He didn't get BoSe until the week before he died. It could have been too late? I don't know. Anyway, thanks for all the advice and comments. I hope I never have to go through that again!!


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

susanne said:


> reactions if overdosed for a long time period.
> talked to my vet about it when treated my kids last year


An animal with an impared system due to disease is always more susceptible to thsee sorts of things. Sorry......it's just not worth the risk. Experiment on your own animals if you want, BUT don't pass out information that you only partially understand as THE treatment for an issue. You don't need to experiment with someone else's animals. 

Did you know there's even an increased risk with some animals having an anaphylactic shock issue when dosing B vitamens (more so than a lot of other vitamens)? Just one more reason to be careful.

Of course you told me (and others) several times how your vet didn't know anything (hence the reason other people had to send you meds from their vets.......).


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

Milk n' Honey said:


> OK, well, the doe passed this evening. It has been very sad to watch. She was a gorgeous Fullblood Boer doe, just a yearling. We paid $600 for her. She is from show lines. What a crummy deal. That is about $1000 worth of goats we lost over the weekend not to mention the kids she was going to have in the fall. She was about 2 months bred. So, next time (God forbid there is a next time) we'll know more about what to look for and be prepared. BTW, from what I've read, Polio is the one that more often affects the younger goats and Listeriosis affects adults plus is harder to treat successfully. I sure hope I don't have any more issues this year. That was awful. I really tried to save her. Her temp was getting lower and lower. I guess I should have known she was dying. Yeah, if the buckling had a congenital defect, the breeder should replace the animal. I'm going to give the vet a week and then call in there and see if it has been done yet. She said that she would give me a report when she is done. I hope he didn't die of a severe selenium deficiency. He didn't get BoSe until the week before he died. It could have been too late? I don't know. Anyway, thanks for all the advice and comments. I hope I never have to go through that again!!


This is sometimes how things happen......I know......I've been there. Sorry you lost your doe......it's never fun losing these guys.

Because listeriosis is generally from ingesting spoiled or somehow damaged feed (it's esentially a form of food poisoning) the first thing you need to do is evaluate your feed. It could even be that hay has been dropping on to the ground from the hay rack and getting moldy and suddenly the goats decided it was the thing to eat. It can be from a spoiled bag of feed or even from a round bale that's taken too long to be eaten down. Look everything over carefully.

Getting the right treatment right away is extremely important with Listeriosis as recovery depends a great deal on how advanced the disease is and how quickly the animal is brought around.

Polio can affect adults too.....particularly when an animal is very sick, BUT yes, it is generally seen more in kids.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Also too much corn can cause polio. I'm very careful how much my goats get.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

What was the bottle baby eating? I have heard that a bottle goat will die on soy-based formula. It just doesn't have what they need.
mary


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## tltater (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm so sorry you lost her on top of the little buckling. You did what you could and that's an admirable thing. I agree with the other poster to be sure to check all feed sources for any mold or spoilage. That is usually the cause of these things and would hate to have you have to go through this with any of your other goats. 

Take care.

Tracy
Southwestern, NY


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

ForMyACDs said:


> An animal with an impared system due to disease is always more susceptible to thsee sorts of things. Sorry......it's just not worth the risk. Experiment on your own animals if you want, BUT don't pass out information that you only partially understand as THE treatment for an issue. You don't need to experiment with someone else's animals.
> 
> Did you know there's even an increased risk with some animals having an anaphylactic shock issue when dosing B vitamens (more so than a lot of other vitamens)? Just one more reason to be careful.
> 
> Of course you told me (and others) several times how your vet didn't know anything (hence the reason other people had to send you meds from their vets.......).


be careful lisa and don't step over your line. whatever advice I give to others is based on discussions with my vet and other breeders whom I trust. I do not experiment. even though my vet treats not only goats she is very interested in the health of the animals and researches and thinks before she speaks.
you comments seem inappropriate here. also, don't throw with stones if you are in a glasshouse. looking at you record with goat health you don't seem to be such an expert either, even though you have goats much longer than I do. maybe working at a vet predisposes you to overdiagnose and overuse of medication? i have not almost lost any kids due to overdosing like you simply because you don't weight you animals correctly and seem to be overly optimistic with their growth. if you give shots like your goats are horses then it should not be such a surprise that you killed Ransom.
don't play the ultimate goat expert if you can't substantiate it with a clean record.


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

I am really sorry to hear about your loss. My heart aches for you. I can not imagine paying that much for a goat much less two and lose them. I hope you do not give up. :Bawling: 
I have never had to experiance this, and I pray I never have too. If I do I will call the vet because there is just too much different info here. 
Have you heard from the vet on the little buckling? Did the vet get any info from the nercopsy? (sp). I pray you get a answer on this. Please let us know.


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

susanne said:


> be careful lisa and don't step over your line.
> 
> if you give shots like your goats are horses then it should not be such a surprise that you killed Ransom.
> don't play the ultimate goat expert if you can't substantiate it with a clean record.


Ouch Susanne. That's pretty harsh and way over the line if you ask me.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

I feel sad to see folks cutting each other down here. We offer help based on our own experience and the feedback from our veteranarians. We are not vets. I use these forums to get suggestions on goat care and also bounce things off my goat mentor and my vet. When I give feedback, I can only share what has worked for me. Since I am not there to actually see the animals, it's entirely possible to miss something. If I have an animal that I am seriously worried about, I call my vet and take the goat in if that's what's called for. I'm not rich by any means and sometimes this means using a credit card.
Milk 'N Honey, I'm so sorry you lost two nice goats. I'm sure you did your best with them. It sounds like you have a caring vet friend to help you with your animals.


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

susanne said:


> be careful lisa and don't step over your line. whatever advice I give to others is based on discussions with my vet and other breeders whom I trust. I do not experiment. even though my vet treats not only goats she is very interested in the health of the animals and researches and thinks before she speaks.


By giving incorrect information you are essentially experimenting with another person's animals.



susanne said:


> you comments seem inappropriate here.


Because I reminded you that you made it very clear in the past that this is the vet that you said was incompetant? I was one of those people you were begging for medications. You also wanted me to drive 2 1/2 hours out to look at a lump on your goat because you didn't "have a vet you could trust". That was only earlier this year! 



susanne said:


> also, don't throw with stones if you are in a glasshouse. looking at you record with goat health you don't seem to be such an expert either, even though you have goats much longer than I do. maybe working at a vet predisposes you to overdiagnose and overuse of medication?


Overdiagnose? By looking for a disease of rare occurance to explain something that was likely simple? Oh....wait, that was you wasn't it? Overmedicate? Wasn't I the one suggesting that you use caution in dosing the B vitamins? Or was it because I was suggesting that they talk to their vet?



susanne said:


> i have not almost lost any kids due to overdosing like you simply because you don't weight you animals correctly and seem to be overly optimistic with their growth.


Nope......never claimed I was perfect, but at least get your story straight. The overdosing of the kids was due to a miscalculation on dosages......I essentially moved a decimal point and you know what? *I* told everyone about it as a reminder to check and double-check their dosages......I did not overestimate weights as I NEVER estimate weights.......the kids were weighed. You know why YOU know about this? Because *I'm* honest and open about what goes on here.



susanne said:


> if you give shots like your goats are horses then it should not be such a surprise that you killed Ransom.


Again......get your story straight. Ransom died because of anaphylactic shock as the result of a shot of PenG. She was given the correct dosage and it was given in the correct manner. It is something that EVERYONE needs to be aware of and THAT is why I announced it. I wanted to be sure that everyone was aware that EVERY shot is a risk and to always have epinephrine on hand. If I'd been just a little bit quicker with the epinephrine she might have been saved as she was close to pulling thru (she didn't die instantly.....she died of secondary complications due to the anaphylactic shock). It doesn't take an incorrect shot to cause this.......it's one of those things that can just happen.....to anyone! Again....you (and others) know about this because I'm honest and open about what goes on here.



susanne said:


> don't play the ultimate goat expert if you can't substantiate it with a clean record


Nope, never claimed to be an expert.......unlike you I'm learning from my mistakes and am passing on the information that I've garnered from it so that someone else doesn't make those same mistakes. If you were learning from your mistakes you'd know that Polio is NOT treated by PenG! Besides......an expert doesn't have a clean record. They have to learn from somewhere! The difference is that I discuss the things I actually KNOW something about........you just so happened to give some incorrect information on something that I DO know have some pretty good experience in.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Most listerosis down here is caused by goats eating moldy bedding. Shavings are appropriate bedding down here, since once sifted through when you put it down fresh, goats don't usually dig through it to eat. But hay or straw, or spent hay from feeders, with the humidity, it causes mold that goats don't seem to mind eating. Listerosis is usually an early spring disease. Do check your grain feeders, mineral feeders and the hay you are feeding. Make sure if you do have hay stored it is stored correctly, not on it's strings and not with a tarp pressing against it which further causes dampness on the bale. Sorry this happened to you. In treating a herd that went through this twice, the only thing that saved her does were high doses of pennicillin orally and then dex and banamine which treated the neurological symptoms, all does aborted and she lost almost half her herd, it's a hard lesson to learn...the lessons that come from our managment. The only reason I have not had to learn this lesson is because with my asthma I can smell mold a mile away! Listerosis is usually a herd wide problem, so be very careful with the rest of the goats, go through your place with a fine tooth comb, better yet invite a goat friend over to help you....amazing what your friends will catch with fresh eyes. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

goatkid said:


> I feel sad to see folks cutting each other down here. We offer help based on our own experience and the feedback from our veteranarians. We are not vets. I use these forums to get suggestions on goat care and also bounce things off my goat mentor and my vet. When I give feedback, I can only share what has worked for me. Since I am not there to actually see the animals, it's entirely possible to miss something. If I have an animal that I am seriously worried about, I call my vet and take the goat in if that's what's called for. I'm not rich by any means and sometimes this means using a credit card.
> Milk 'N Honey, I'm so sorry you lost two nice goats. I'm sure you did your best with them. It sounds like you have a caring vet friend to help you with your animals.



i totally agree. a board is not a place to run a vendatta or fight personal wars.
however this is the escalation of a long story i don't except endless accusations hidden behind sometimes reasonable arguments. to a certain degree i regret having exploded that heavily on an open board especially since i believe this is not the appropriate place to do so. you may be surprized to hear that i considered lisa a dear friend of mine until recent events. however i can't swallow everything.


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