# The "Knee Defender" is the Offender



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

An argument over legroom on a weekend flight led United Airlines to divert a plane to Chicago and call authorities, the airline said Tuesday.

United Airlines Flight 1462 was en route from Newark, N.J., to Denver Sunday afternoon when there was a disturbance between two passengers, a spokesman for the airline said.

According to Chicago police, a 47-year-old man and a 48-year-old woman sitting in front of him got into an altercation after the female passenger realized she could not recline her seat.

The Associated Press reported that the man was using the Knee Defender, a plastic device that clips onto the tray table and prevents the seat ahead from reclining back.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-knee-defender-flight-diverted-20140826-story.html


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...............The real Culprit here is the Airlines themselves ! They try to pack as many Sardines as possible into their flying tin cans . What is the correct spacing for each passenger? I'd say that the person wishing to recline their seat , MUST allow enough room so that the passenger behind them can extract themselves from their seat without undue stress . This is especially important when the plane has to make an emergency landing . Of course all passengers would have moved their seats into the full sitting position , but things happen that no one thinks of . , fordy


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

I am 6'-2" and take about 100 flights a year. Yes, leg room is tight, so in consideration of other passengers I do not recline my seat unless nobody is behind me. I really don't blame passengers who do recline, though if this is done abruptly it can crunch my knees. Thanks to those few of you who look behind and ask politely to recline your seat into my lap space! I never object to such a request, and if I know it is coming I can adjust to avoid the knee impact. As public places become ever more crowded, traffic builds, and personal space dwindles, the courtesy we show to others counts for more and more.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

fordy said:


> ...............The real Culprit here is the Airlines themselves ! They try to pack as many Sardines as possible into their flying tin cans . What is the correct spacing for each passenger? I'd say that the person wishing to recline their seat , MUST allow enough room so that the passenger behind them can extract themselves from their seat without undue stress . This is especially important when the plane has to make an emergency landing . Of course all passengers would have moved their seats into the full sitting position , but things happen that no one thinks of . , fordy


Is it the airlines or is it consumers who insist on being able to fly from coast to coast for $99?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> Is it the airlines or is it consumers who insist on being able to fly from coast to coast for $99?


That is why when our company sends us on a job and the flight is over a couple of hours we go business class.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I understand the frustration of not having leg room, or having a tray come hit your knees, but the person in front of you paid for a seat just like you did. If one wants more leg room, he/she can upgrade to first class.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

fordy said:


> ...............The real Culprit here is the Airlines themselves ! They try to pack as many Sardines as possible into their flying tin cans . What is the correct spacing for each passenger? I'd say that the person wishing to recline their seat , MUST allow enough room so that the passenger behind them can extract themselves from their seat without undue stress . This is especially important when the plane has to make an emergency landing . Of course all passengers would have moved their seats into the full sitting position , but things happen that no one thinks of . , fordy


Except in this case, the passengers were in "economy plus" class with 4" of extra legroom. PLUS United (and most other US carriers) does not allow use of the knee defender device and the passenger using it refused to remove it when requested by the flight attendant because he wanted to use his computer -- not because his knees were getting crushed. But I think the female passenger throwing water at him was a bit extreme (but funny).


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

And people wonder why I refuse to fly...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If I paid for a seat that could recline I fully expect to be able to use it . If someone wants more legroom they can buy that too, apparently this man bought some legroom but didn't think it was enough.
I think the wanting to use the puter thing is a ruse since I find I can use it in cattle class, oops er no class, oops ECONOMEY class just fine.


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## NickyBlade (May 27, 2008)

We were flying to Hawaii and I had my laptop open on my tray when the seat in front of me suddenly reclined pretty forcefully... the top of the seat wedged my computer between my tray and the seat back. I'm totally surprised the screen didn't shatter. Is it that hard to take a peak behind you before flinging yourself back? :/


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Is it the airlines or is it consumers who insist on being able to fly from coast to coast for $99?


Quite frankly I'd pay more for more room.
I've started flying first class just to have room, expensive but then I only fly once a year or so.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

I've had it both ways. Someone just abruptly slamming their seat back, which has brought about some rather harsh comments on my part, and someone asking if it would bother me if they reclined in which case I've said go ahead.

I side somewhat with the gal, in that her choice was taken away whether she asked or not.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

The "knee defender" is just another example of how selfish we have become.

My comfort is paramount. Someone else's is meaningless.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

As someone who used to fly regularly for work, I think that doohickey is awesome. If I had a nickle for every bald head that ended up in my lap as soon as the bell went off. Way back then the only recourse I had was opening up the morning paper as wide as it would go and with great exaggeration, flopping it around and turning the pages. And that didn't work very often (though it made me feel better). 

Riding a pack mule across country is a better way to go than getting on an airplane.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

PrettyPaisley said:


> As someone who used to fly regularly for work, I think that doohickey is awesome. If I had a nickle for every bald head that ended up in my lap as soon as the bell went off. Way back then the only recourse I had was opening up the morning paper as wide as it would go and with great exaggeration, flopping it around and turning the pages. And that didn't work very often (though it made me feel better).
> 
> Riding a pack mule across country is a better way to go than getting on an airplane.


What if, for some reason, you wanted to recline _your _seat back and the passenger behind you, would not allow it?

No problem, right?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wow seems like some of you must fly some pretty good airlines, the flights I have been on it seems like their idea of "reclining" is to move the seatback about 3 inches!

The great draw of air travel is that good ,bad or crash it all ends quickly!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> What if, for some reason, you wanted to recline _your _seat back and the passenger behind you, would not allow it?
> 
> No problem, right?


That's right, I can't remember the last time I 'needed' to recline while flying.
If you want to sleep do it at home or in a hotel.
Bring a book or a couple magazines, crochet, bring your tablet or laptop, but stop making a bad situation worse.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

PrettyPaisley said:


> As someone who used to fly regularly for work, I think that doohickey is awesome. If I had a nickle for every bald head that ended up in my lap as soon as the bell went off. Way back then the only recourse I had was opening up the morning paper as wide as it would go and with great exaggeration, flopping it around and turning the pages. And that didn't work very often (though it made me feel better).
> 
> Riding a pack mule across country is a better way to go than getting on an airplane.


Being of bald head and sound mind, it never occurred to be to ask the person behind me if I could recline. The way I see it that is my space.

If you had put that doohickey on and I could not recline that small amount, one of us would be moving. That is why I hate the back seat and those few others that don't recline from the upright position.

Some travelers can be very rude, and it seems that some of the rudest are the ones that travel the most. I could tell some stories, but maybe someone will start a thread called "Do you have a plane story?"


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> That's right, I can't remember the last time I 'needed' to recline while flying.
> If you want to sleep do it at home or in a hotel.
> Bring a book or a couple magazines, crochet, bring your tablet or laptop, but stop making a bad situation worse.


Good for the passenger behind you.

Sorry, but it's tough to convince me that _anyone_, will gladly let that choice be taken away from them.

If you have window seat and want to use the lavatory, it will be an inconvenience for other passengers, to wake up, put up what they are doing, get out of your way.

Ok to sit and hold it?


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

Well, I think you're just a bunch of complainers.

(disclaimer - I'm 5'2" on a good day) lol.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

plowjockey said:


> What if, for some reason, you wanted to recline _your _seat back and the passenger behind you, would not allow it?
> 
> No problem, right?



No. I didn't recline my seat. IMO - the space in front of me is my space. The space behind me is not - it is their space. You cannot function on a plane with someone's head in your lap but you can sit upright and do whatever you need to while soaring through the air. Now clearly not all of us agree in that, but I was also one to sit with my arms at my side instead of hogging the rests between the seats. But I don't like crowds and I don't like to be close to or touched by strangers. OCD most likely but I also booked the aisle seat for quick get aways and the emergency row every chance I could. Or I'd take a different flight when possible.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I wouldn't buy or use one. It interferes with others' enjoyment of airline features. Yes, it can encroach towards to person behind, but that's how the plane's interior is designed. We've all got to live with that.

In any case, the passenger should have followed the flight attendant's instructions and removed the device. In fact it's a crime to refuse to follow instructions. He's fortunate that he wasn't charged. Failure to follow flight attendant instructions is a bigger deal than the device.

The passenger was also out of line for throwing water at the man. We can't conduct ourselves that way on an airliner.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Diversity is obviously the problem.
If we all did the same thing at the same time there would be fewer problems with this.
To me it seems obvious that the space between the tray table and the seat back is under the control of the person in that seat. The airlines must see it that way since they planned how the seats work and they usually issue a warning if a seat DOESNT recline.

The why as to their use of that space really isn't the issue. Do you REALLY care if they want a nap or if they need to recline to relive spinal pain? Do you care if they are fear full of flying and sleep to escape it? Perhaps they have been working for 50 hours and really need that nap to be safe to drive home?
Perhaps the guy in the seat besides you wants a nap without the annoying tap tap tap of your computer or the reflections of your turning pages? Should he get to prohibit you from those unnecessary actions?

The truth is we are all mashed into a small space and must make the best of it.

As for the knee space it is down low and due to the angular change of the reclining seat a change of 6 inches of headspace surly cant make a inch of difference at knee level.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

When I fly, I usually carry a heavy burlap bag that I like to call my "Crying Child Muffler."

But, so far, I've been stopped by a flight attendant every time I've tried to install it.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

I am only 5' tall, and I think it takes a special kind of jerk to recline the seat on a flight without first asking permission from the person behind them, especially if that flight is under 2 hrs. I see these super big guys with their knees right against the seat in front of them...I can't imagine how it is for them if it is uncomfortable for someone of my size.

You can believe all you want that you bought that space, but, in reality, you are just making yourself comfortable at the expense of someone else's comfort. 

But, then again, I also have an issue with folks who drag on giant carry ons, holding up the whole boarding and deboarding process, because they simply refuse to ever check a bag. CHECK YOUR BAG.


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## Guest123 (Oct 10, 2006)

I am 6'6" and 270+ lbs, had knee surgery 6 times, and fly frequently for business and pleasure, so I understand discomfort on an airplane!! It all comes down to common courtesy. If you are tall and cannot sit without your knees against the seat ahead of you, hopefully that person will understand and be decent about it. Because you want to use your laptop in that position is not a reason to put another paying customer in an uncomfortable position. Most of the time I pay extra so I have leg room but sometimes that is not an option. I always sit in a way that is extremely uncomfortable to me rather than bang my knees on the back of someones seat. Again, whatever happened to common courtesy? Great thread to see tonight as I am online to book a flight to San Juan....5 hour flight!


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

But wait- http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mo-airlines-squeeze-in-more-seats-20140418-story.html

Why stop there- let's make them like subways with poles.


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> That's right, I can't remember the last time I 'needed' to recline while flying.
> If you want to sleep do it at home or in a hotel.
> Bring a book or a couple magazines, crochet, bring your tablet or laptop, but stop making a bad situation worse.


You must've never flown between Frankfurt Germany and Dulles before (or between Frankfurt and Detroit). Probably 90% plus of the passengers nap/sleep on those flights. But then it is a good 9 hour flight. Maybe it is me (or because I was in Economy plus) but there was enough room to recline without inconveniencing the person behind.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Edmund Alexandre, 60, caused an American Airlines flight to Paris to divert to Boston after he allegedly became unruly when the passenger in front of him reclined her seat, which hurt his legs.










Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...e-land-boston-article-1.1921415#ixzz3BnYQJbbb


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## jefferson (Nov 11, 2004)

I wont fly..... commercial. I much prefer to yank on the stick myself.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If sitting behind my reclined seat was such misery, if recliners like me are âmonsters,â as Mark Hemingway of The Weekly Standard puts it, why is nobody willing to pay me to stop? People talk a big game on social media about the terribleness of reclining, but then people like to complain about all sorts of things; if they really cared that much, someone would have opened his wallet and paid me by now.

From:
Josh Barro is a domestic correspondent for The New York Times, where he writes for The Upshot, a Times politics and policy site.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/u...&src=mv&WT.nav=MostViewed&abt=0002&abg=1&_r=1


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Reminds me of why I'm a Republican...I believe in free enterprise, but with a few common sense rules.

In the case of commercial flight, it is commercial but it also has an element of public transportation, especially in economy class. Wouldn't bother me at all to enact a government standard for seating room. Safety trumps profit.

Before some of you pooh-pooh that idea, let me just ask if you've ever been on an airliner that landed hard enough to break multiple luggage bins, drop all the oxygen masks and the right wing tip bounced off the tarmac?

When you're trying to climb over carry-ons to get to the emergency exit, those extra few inches become mighty important, besides just adding to everyday comfort.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Some airlines now make EXTRA wide people buy two seats I suppose if you are too long legged to allow the seat in front of you to recline you can buy the seat in front of you.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

FeralFemale said:


> I am only 5' tall, and I think it takes a special kind of jerk to recline the seat on a flight without first asking permission from the person behind them, especially if that flight is under 2 hrs. I see these super big guys with their knees right against the seat in front of them...I can't imagine how it is for them if it is uncomfortable for someone of my size.
> 
> You can believe all you want that you bought that space, but, in reality, you are just making yourself comfortable at the expense of someone else's comfort.
> 
> But, then again, I also have an issue with folks who drag on giant carry ons, holding up the whole boarding and deboarding process, because they simply refuse to ever check a bag. CHECK YOUR BAG.



LOL

I pay $400 for a plane ticket and I need _your_ permission?

And you would still consider yourself courteous if you said NO?  I'm 5' 10" and i'm cramped in some seats that aren't reclined.

It's called life.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/02/us-usa-florida-delta-idUSKBN0GX1UJ20140902

Today - (Reuters) - An argument over leg room and reclining seats forced a Florida-bound flight from New York to divert to a different airport late on Monday, the third such incident of a midair disruption caused by passengers in about a week.


The airline said one of those involved was using a Knee Defender, a small wedge-like gadget that clips to a tray table and forces the seat in front to stay upright. Many carriers, including United, ban the use of the device.


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