# Caseous Lymphadenitis



## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

I'd never even heard of CL, but all of a sudden one of my ewes is super skinny and has an abscess slightly smaller than a baseball on her jaw, just under the ear. Fortunately, it hasn't ruptured yet, but I'm more than a little concerned. The vet is coming on Tuesday, I hope, but what I'm reading about this is not encouraging. Until the vet cultures it, we can't say for sure that's the cause, but it seems pretty textbook.

Anyone ever had CL in their flock? Any off label or little known magical cures I should know about? Other than isolating her, is there anything I should do?

:awh:


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

It may be a staph infection from the ear. . You/your vet should know when he lances it. It will stink beyond belief and it maybe painful to the ewe if it is staph.
CL does not usually make an animal unthrifty. This also may have to do with a tooth gone bad or pushed up into the sinuses.
There are several things it could be . Sounds like you are doing everything right. If it gets shiny and looks like it will open before the vet gets there glue a piece of airtight fabric over the area- putting the glue just on the edges of the cloth- sealing the area so that it will not drip anywhere but where you want it.


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## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

We have had three rams develop caseous internally. I did make them unthrifty.

Only having external abcesses doesn't cause the same problems, but if they have it externally some will also have it internally and some will have it internally without external signs.

Until the vet comes, isolate this ewe.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

CL does make the ewe unthrifty. You cull problems like that and there is no cure. Her lambs are likely carriers too. Sorry


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Well, poop. 

Sheepish, how did you know they had it if they did not develop external signs? I do have another ewe who can't seem to gain any weight, she may well have CL as well, but how can I tell?

Ross, I've already culled one of her lambs, but that was because she had no parasite resistance at all. That one gained weight on a dry lot, but she was a yearling. Is this a genetic issue, or do you mean her lambs from this year, because of exposure to her milk? She had twins this year-- the male is fine but the ewe lamb has been weak since birth (pneumonia, undersized, and bottle jaw more times than I can count) and I was going to cull her anyway.

Thanks for the help.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> abscess slightly smaller than a baseball on her jaw


Are you sure it's not Bottlejaw?

A CL abcess will be hard, and usually all the hair will be gone

Bottlejaw is large , but soft like a water balloon, with no hair loss


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes, unfortunately, I am a little too familiar with bottlejaw. I check for that daily, because we've had 25 inches of rain just in the last month (sorry, Texans) and the parasites are having a field day this year. :doh: Thanks, though, the vet asked me the same thing!

This is a hard lump, back on the point of her jaw below the ear. It isn't in the hairless, hot, ready to burst stage yet, but it is definitely an abscess. I would not have noticed it except that I had the Cotswolds shorn yesterday and Calico's face is lopsided-- hard to see that when her cheeks are fuzzy. Glad I found it early; if this thing had popped before I saw it I would lose my flock (assuming this does turn out to be CL).

The vet is coming out on Tuesday before I have to go to work, she's going to do a culture and some bloodwork and we'll see what the science says. I've got Calico isolated, and I pulled out two others that are thinner than I'd like so I'm going to have her look at them, too. One of those was a cull anyway (mastitis), but one is my little rescue Babydoll cross that I've been rehabilitating for the last three years (severe abuse in her first life).


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## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

VA Shepherd said:


> Well, poop.
> 
> Sheepish, how did you know they had it if they did not develop external signs? I do have another ewe who can't seem to gain any weight, she may well have CL as well, but how can I tell?


We had them put down and autopsied because in two cases they were wasting away and the third ram, our best ever, developed a persistent wheezing. His caseous surrounded the windpipe.

The local vet college still shows slides of the lungs, heart and trachea of our rams to vet students who are studying this disease.

There is a blood test but it is not reliable, but it might be informative.

A good vet may be able to tell if an abscess is not caseous, depending on the position and composition

CL doesn't pass to offspring like maedi-visna. It passes through material from ruptured abscesses passing into abraded skin. The bacteria are very persistent, that is they stay infectious for months. (We had the top small-ruminant vet in Canada at our farm last week doing a talk with a few students. This is what she said.)

You won't be able to eliminate it unless you sell your entire flock, clean out your barn and leave it animal-free for a year. Then purchase clean preferably very young animals from a knowlegeable shepherd with a very good reputation who will tell you if there is CL in the flock and what they are doing about it. 

I don't know about the US, but in Canada the infection rate is estimated to be about 85% of flocks. Some don't know they have it, some don't care and some won't admit it. Others try to eliminate it or at least keep the infections to a minimum.

If you do get caseous in your flock, you can keep the infection rate down in the flock by using the CL vaccine, culling any sheep with abscesses that might be CL and disinfecting surfaces that your sheep rub on. However you will miss surfaces, you will miss infected animals and the vaccine does not eliminate CL, it only helps manage it.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I have never heard of this, GREAT something else I need to be concerned about....LOL


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

VA Shepherd said:


> Yes, unfortunately, I am a little too familiar with bottlejaw. I check for that daily, because we've had 25 inches of rain just in the last month (sorry, Texans) and the parasites are having a field day this year. :doh: Thanks, though, the vet asked me the same thing!
> 
> This is a hard lump, back on the point of her jaw below the ear. It isn't in the hairless, hot, ready to burst stage yet, but it is definitely an abscess. I would not have noticed it except that I had the Cotswolds shorn yesterday and Calico's face is lopsided-- hard to see that when her cheeks are fuzzy. Glad I found it early; if this thing had popped before I saw it I would lose my flock (assuming this does turn out to be CL).
> 
> The vet is coming out on Tuesday before I have to go to work, she's going to do a culture and some bloodwork and we'll see what the science says. I've got Calico isolated, and I pulled out two others that are thinner than I'd like so I'm going to have her look at them, too. One of those was a cull anyway (mastitis), but one is my little rescue Babydoll cross that I've been rehabilitating for the last three years (severe abuse in her first life).



Trust me VA, we have had more internal parisites then ever before because of the drought. I just havent had to deal with wettness and parisites which could lead to even more issues I am sure I do not want to encounter. So now I need to research CL? Why didnt I become a vet when I was younger?....Jezzzzz...LOL


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

sheepish said:


> ...
> 
> There is a blood test but it is not reliable, but it might be informative.
> 
> ...


The last time I looked into CL, one thing I found out is that if you do vaccinate for CL, they will test positive for the blood test (I had a llama with an abscess, but it was tested and was not CL). So if you have a closed flock and don't have CL now, you probably don't want to vaccinate.

This is a good post to read for more info:

http://www.mylamb.org/thread.php?return=&threadNum=29730&search=CL+Vaccine


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

CL is very specific to location. That said, when I was a new sheep owner, I bought some sheep and later, to my dismay, found that some of the sheep were infected. I culled the entire herd and started over - but I still don't graze my sheep or goats in that paddock - keep the old gelding in there now. Be sure that animal is securely isolated before the abscess ruptures, and be prepared to sterilize that area if it does rupture. Have the rest of your animals tested.


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Fowler, I have been kicking myself for not becoming a vet for years! :hysterical: Man, hindsight is so clear....

Thanks for all the info, everyone, your advice will help me ask intelligent questions tomorrow, so we can get to the bottom of this. I am so hoping this doesn't turn out to be CL.


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## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

LibertyWool said:


> The last time I looked into CL, one thing I found out is that if you do vaccinate for CL, they will test positive for the blood test


Apparently the blood test will show positive, but within a certain range, so they should be able to say whether it is positive to the vaccine, or positive to the disease. This doesn't always work.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm very curious as to what the vet said VA Shepherd. Do tell?


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Well, mostly what she said was "We'll have to wait for the lab results," so I'm practicing patience this week. :bored:

The abscess on Calico's face wasn't fully formed yet, so she had some trouble draining the pus, but we definitely got some out of there-- poor sheepie! She's in isolation, and we drew blood from three others that I think are thinner than they should be, to see if we get one or more positives.

The good news is, she said they've been having very good results in cases of CL injecting Draxxin directly into the abscess, as well as a systemic dose. If this does turn out to be CL (and we think it probably is), all may not be lost.

Though the ram lamb I was about sell will be staying here, dangit. :shrug:

Thanks for asking! Sorry I didn't update sooner, I just started a new job and they keep asking me to work late, so I was away from home for 16 hours today. Making a good impression is one thing, but I've told them my critters come first, hopefully things will level out soon.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

CL puss is VERY THICK... Like cottage cheese... sorry you are going through this. As a goat owner I have known of CL for years. There is no cure. It transmits easily. I hope you end up being negative. Keep us posted. It only takes a couple days for the test result. 
Oh... Also, the lowest titer you can get is a 1:8 .... that means you are negative. The results show up in increments of 8 (i.e 1:16 1:32 .... etc) The higher the number, the worse the exposure and/or disease. You can have many abcesses internally and not have any externally.


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks mpete, I didn't know about the titer scale. I'll ask her about that when the results come back in.

I had read that the pus was thick, almost like toothpaste, and when we drained the abscess, it was pretty thin and liquid. I asked the vet about that, but she said I shouldn't get my hopes up because the abscess was not fully formed, and the pus thickens over time. *Sigh*


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I've heard of Draxxin 'treatment'. It won't cure the disease - nothing will, because it's extremely hard to get meds into the lymph system and also to get it into abscesses where the bacteria are localized and effectively walled off from the rest of the body and thus preventing the transport of any antibiotic into the abscess. 

It's also EXTREMELY expensive. 

http://www.allivet.com/Draxxin-p/25723.htm

Blood tests are fairly accurate when there are active abscesses. NO disease test is 100% accurate, and this is why regular (yearly) testing is SO important. All diseases have an incubation time between infection and decline, during which time the animals may be infected but not shedding bacteria at high enough levels to test positive. Also, with many of the diseases there are closely related bacteria in the environment that can contaminate your sample and cause a 'false positive'. Repeated testing - usually 3 sucessive results - is very important. 

Biosecurity measures such as buying from reputable places as well as practicing disease testing and isolation of all incoming stock is recommended. I test goats before I buy, then bring them home if they are negative. I then isolate them here for 3 months and retest. No, the tests are not 100% but with repeated use they are a helpful TOOL. 

Horses, cows, goats, sheep, rabbits, people - all can get CL. In fact, the only reported cases of people getting CL are shepherds. Horses get 'pidgeon fever' but it is a DIFFERENT strain of CL than what goats/sheep get. Cows can carry/have BOTH strains. I'm not sure what strain rabbits get. 

Abscesses that are internal can be spreading the disease through coughing, milk, or the poo, depending on where the abscess is. I believe carcasses with more than 3 abscesses are condemned and cannot be used for human consumption. I have heard of the bacteria being alive in the soil for up to 10 years - but this would have to be somewhere relatively good for bacteria to live - meaning in a compost pile where it's moist and warm perhaps, so cleaning the barn and equipment and letting it sit dry for a long time SHOULD work. Disinfect with something like Roccal or better yet, replace what you can.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

update?


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Still waiting.....:hair 

The lab is state run so they had Monday off for Columbus Day.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

LMAO!!!!.....can I have a new house that's paid for?...LOL
Thanks for keeping us updated VA. I am also learning a lot from everyone here. Thanks everyone.


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

The vet finally called-- and we're clean!!!:dance::dance::dance::clap::happy::happy:
I'm not sure there are enough happy smilies to cover how I feel right now. 

She said it was some other kind of bacteria, I was too busy breathing again to catch the name, but it's pretty harmless. She was surprised, we were both pretty worried, but hey, I'm all for good news!

I'm looking forward to getting a good night's sleep for the first time in two weeks.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

VA Shepherd said:


> The vet finally called-- and we're clean!!!:dance::dance::dance::clap::happy::happy:
> I'm not sure there are enough happy smilies to cover how I feel right now.
> 
> She said it was some other kind of bacteria, I was too busy breathing again to catch the name, but it's pretty harmless. She was surprised, we were both pretty worried, but hey, I'm all for good news!
> ...


I can only imagine your relief! congrats on the good news! A scare like that every now and then sure does keep us vigilant, and thankful.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

This is GREAT news VA!!!!!! {{{{BIG HUG}}}}} I am so, so happy for you!!!


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Wonderful News!!


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks! TQB, you are so right, vigilant and thankful indeed. 

This forum is great, you guys actually get how stressful this kind of thing is. Everyone at work was just sort of confused: "Oh, your goats are sick? Sorry. Oh, yeah, sheep. Whatever."  

Here, I get a hug from Fowler! 

Now I just have to wait for Calico's abscess to rupture, and treat it as it drains. It's so big now and close to her eye that the vet said lancing it would be a little risky. I think this may have started as an ear infection, because she seems to have had some hearing loss over the last month, but I'm just guessing. I have one mostly deaf ewe already, she does just fine!

Thanks again, for all the info and support! :grouphug:


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

YAY!!!!!!!:bouncy:
That is soooo awesome!
The 'other bacteria' that they mentioned will just be the one causing the infection. Did they tell you to use an antibiotic?


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

btw: just to address the skinny of your ewe, have you had any fecals done to see if they have a worm load?


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

Good news! I was worried for you and your flock.

Peg


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

Sorry for the slow reply: 

She said that antibiotics weren't really effective in this case, and Calico had already had a huge dose of Draxxin anyway: a systemic dose, and a shot directly into the abscess. No effect. 

And, yes, worm load has been a huge problem this year, but this ewe has been wormed fairly recently. I suspect she's been having trouble chewing. You can see why, below.  

I've got her snacking on softened hay stretcher pellets, a little grain, and alfalfa, and she's gaining nicely now. Thank goodness! Of course, this monster is still growing, but she's in good spirits, eating well, and doing just fine. She's just starting to shed the hair over the abscess, so hopefully it'll begin to drain soon and we can treat and move on. Poor girl.

Her face is so lopsided! Her lamb is with her, even though she's completely weaned; I just wanted her to have a little company while she convalesces.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

How is she doing?


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Bless her little sheep heart, you're a good sheep momma VA.

That's what my husband tells my sheep, "go see momma she'll fix you up"...LOL


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

She's about the same, the thing is even bigger but I think it'll pop soon (it has to! ). She is having trouble chewing on that side, so it's good she doesn't have any competition for food. Her weight is holding, she can still eat, just slowly. If it doesn't start draining soon, and she does start to lose weight, I'll have to have it lanced. 

The vet sent me the lab report: the offending bacteria are Arcanobacterium pyogenes. I'm actually glad this thing is on her cheek, if this had manifested in her udder I'd have a very full freezer this year. She had a cracked hoof a couple of months ago, I don't know if that's what started this whole thing, or if it's just a random event, but I'll sure be glad when it's behind us.

And thanks, Fowler, it's true, I do baby them when they're sick!  

Sheep are so stalwart, they don't tell you they're sick unless they're really, really hurting. At least this I can see and help with, but she doesn't act like she's in pain. The worst thing I've ever seen was a sheep with multiple bites from a brown recluse, and an owner unwilling to have her put down. I will never let my animals suffer like that, I am keeping a very close eye on this situation. 

I am still just so glad it wasn't CL, I may frame that lab report! :bouncy:


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I am SOOO happy for you!


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