# Gawd...don't you love flying?



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/vide...ng-dragged-from-overbooked-united-flight.html

this seems a bit over the top.


----------



## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

Wasn't that shocking!!! I thought usually the airlines come in and ask people and offer all kinds of rewards if you accept. I never would have thought they'd force people out. They just keep upping the rewards until someone says okay. I've been tempted by the rewards myself. But to drag an unconscious man off....I'll remember United Airlines. Won't you?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Ana Bluebird said:


> Wasn't that shocking!!! I thought usually the airlines come in and ask people and offer all kinds of rewards if you accept. I never would have thought they'd force people out. They just keep upping the rewards until someone says okay. I've been tempted by the rewards myself. But to drag an unconscious man off....I'll remember United Airlines. Won't you?


Ive already avoided United for years but if I hadn't this would certainly would have made me start avoiding them. Unbelievable.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If the airline personnel ask you to move or leave is a felony not to.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> If the airline personnel ask you to move or leave is a felony not to.


Having the law on your side doesn't always make your actions the correct ones. United will pay in ways much more costly than legal ones for this action.


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

This is what passes for "*Customer Service*" nowadays. Hopefully the "Customer's" will show their appreciation by boycotting those moron's. Seems to be symptomatic of more things going wrong in the world at large... really makes me appreciate the quiet & serenity of living in a quiet part of the countryside with the largest "urban containment zone" being 200 kms away. People in the country still say Hi, Smile, will chat and KNOW how to be pleasant with manner's & respect for others. Sure am glad that I don't "have to" travel anymore... just too crazy now.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> If the airline personnel ask you to move or leave is a felony not to.


How does that work? If you are in America and take a Chinese citizen of the plane whose laws do you use? America or China? Or if in China and take an American of the plane? What if your in international waters?


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> How does that work? If you are in America and take a Chinese citizen of the plane whose laws do you use? America or China? Or if in China and take an American of the plane? What if your in international waters?


Read all the details of that contract you agree to when you purchase the ticket. It's only about 20 pages. The airline acted within the rights of the contract. And against the rights of human decency.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mmoetc said:


> Read all the details of that contract you agree to when you purchase the ticket. It's only about 20 pages. The airline acted within the rights of the contract. And against the rights of human decency.


I understand contacts but felonies are another thing. A breach of contract does not always mean it's a felony.


----------



## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I want to know if it was true that he was a doctor - forgedabout his race or is this going to be about that?


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Wolf mom said:


> I want to know if it was true that he was a doctor - forgedabout his race or is this going to be about that?


I don't know what he looks like TBH. I just heard about it. Or that he was a Dr. I was just wondering how it would be a felony not to leave they plane. Like what country would it be a felony in? Each country has different laws after all. 
I would think it is a breach of contract and not a felony but would like for AS to clarify to the masses.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> I don't know what he looks like TBH. I just heard about it. Or that he was a Dr. I was just wondering how it would be a felony not to leave they plane. Like what country would it be a felony in? Each country has different laws after all.
> I would think it is a breach of contract and not a felony but would like for AS to clarify to the masses.



Seems like the intelligent thing to have done if this was a felony would have been to let him stay aboard for the flight and then arrested him after he got off the plane in Louisville.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Seems like the intelligent thing to have done if this was a felony would have been to let him stay aboard for the flight and then arrested him after he got off the plane in Louisville.


Haven't seen the video yet. I'll watch when I get home. I heard it's pretty bad.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

well, looks like something good came out of it.

The Pentagon has awarded the contract for forcibly removing Assad from Syria to United Airlines.

http://www.duffelblog.com/2017/04/pentagon-awards-contract-united-airlines-forcibly-remove-assad/


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> well, looks like something good came out of it.
> 
> The Pentagon has awarded the contract for forcibly removing Assad from Syria to United Airlines.
> 
> http://www.duffelblog.com/2017/04/pentagon-awards-contract-united-airlines-forcibly-remove-assad/


To be fair, they do seem to be good at it.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Haven't seen the video yet. I'll watch when I get home. I heard it's pretty bad.


I don't have the video from yesterday, but here is a United Airlines that is used for training their security personnel.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I also have this photo of a United Airlines security officer taken by a passenger during yesterdays deplaning.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Great for competitors.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Let's get some tiny facts straight, first, OK?

It was not a United Airlines jet. It was a company contracted through United.
It was not a United Airlines crew. It was a crew that works for the above mentioned company.
The crew did not put anyone off the jet.
In order to get another jet, filled with passengers in the air, they needed a crew, 4 people, to get to that jet. That means 4 ticket carrying passengers would have to get off. Airline staff offered the maximum amount they were authorized to offer. But no takers. So, 4 passengers were selected, totally at random, to be put off the jet. All 4 passengers complied. The now famous doctor, returned with the flight crew and refused to leave. There are reports that this resulted in a big disruption. Following airline's protocol, Airport Security were called about the disruptive passenger. It is Airport Security's obligation to swiftly remove disruptive passengers. Just as police must do, they increased their removal procedure to match and exceed the resisting disruptive passenger.

The doctor has been convicted of a felony and has a documented mental health history of acting out violently. He was able to retain his license through an agreement to take regular drug tests, submit to lie detector tests and continue with anger management therapy.

I think that the contracted airline staff should have been afforded the latitude to increase the "reward" for giving up a seat beyond the standard $600.

Each year, after refusing free airfare and whatever, 40,000 passengers are put off or not allowed on their scheduled flight. Over booking in an attempt to insure full jets helps keeps flights affordable.

It is the airline's right to put off anyone, anytime they need to. Resisting Cops or Airport Security is a fool's game. Did you see the video of the other 3 passengers that got "bumped" off that flight? Did you see the video of the 40,000 passengers that got put on different flights because of overbooking or whatever reason? Nope. Because we live in a civilized society with respect for rules and those employed to insure the rules are followed.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Meanwhile...

http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Jolly said:


> Meanwhile...
> 
> http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/


And this justifies the actions of the airline how?


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Let's get some tiny facts straight, first, OK?
> 
> It was not a United Airlines jet. It was a company contracted through United.
> It was not a United Airlines crew. It was a crew that works for the above mentioned company.
> ...



I understand the rules. I also understand how the rules can be abused. There were countless opportunities for the airline to have resolved this issue prior to the doctor acting out. He was wrong to do so but the airline, while legally right, was wrong in many ways.


----------



## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Actually, Haypoint is wrong on several levels. First is the doctor did volunteer to be bumped until he found out the next flight available wasn't until the next afternoon and since he had patients to see the next morning he withdrew his offer. This was before the airline started forcing people off.

The second wrong point Haypoint made was in the amount of compensation. If the airline can't get someone to their destination within two hours of the regular scheduled time (4 hours international), the compensation is 400% the price of the ticket up to $1350.00. The airline stopped offering compensation at $800.00. I imagine if they continued up to the max plus overnight accommodations a few people would have volunteered. 

Since this reply ended up getting bumped to the second page, I can't remember the third wrong point he made.

And whether the doctor was wrong or not, how does that justify his being knocked unconscious and forcibly removed as he was? It doesn't.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

And id like to clarify one more thing. The fight wasn't overbooked as news reports keep saying. The flight was full. Everyone with a ticket was boarded and sitting. The airline decided their four employees were more important than the four passengers who would have to leave the flight. There are hundreds of flights daily between O'hare and Louisville. It's less than a five hour drive. Think about it.


----------



## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Haypoint, could you please cite your source? I'm not doubting you, but would like to see for myself. That mental health part in particular, if in America that'd a HIPPA violation to divulge such information.



haypoint said:


> Let's get some tiny facts straight, first, OK?
> 
> It was not a United Airlines jet. It was a company contracted through United.
> It was not a United Airlines crew. It was a crew that works for the above mentioned company.
> ...


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> And id like to clarify one more thing. The fight wasn't overbooked as news reports keep saying. The flight was full. Everyone with a ticket was boarded and sitting. The airline decided their four employees were more important than the four passengers who would have to leave the flight. There are hundreds of flights daily between O'hare and Louisville. It's less than a five hour drive. Think about it.



Too bad their employees weren't women wearing the devil leggings...the whole situation could have been avoided.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> And id like to clarify one more thing. The fight wasn't overbooked as news reports keep saying. The flight was full. Everyone with a ticket was boarded and sitting. The airline decided their four employees were more important than the four passengers who would have to leave the flight. There are hundreds of flights daily between O'hare and Louisville. It's less than a five hour drive. Think about it.


"The airline decided" that putting another plane in the air at Louisville was more important than 4 passengers at O'Hare. You and I don't have enough facts to know what the right choice might have been. There are strict hours of work and non-flight hours for the crew. Would a five hour drive get the crew to their flight on time?
Normally, when a flight is overbooked, they know it prior to boarding. They offer flights and rewards for taking a later flight and allow enough passengers to board based on the number of seats. Easy. But in this situation, the passengers had already boarded and they had to make seats available for the flight crew that was headed to their flight in Louisville.

Right, wrong or indifferent, out of the millions of passengers that fly each year, airlines overbook and people get bumped to the next flight.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It


ShannonR said:


> Haypoint, could you please cite your source? I'm not doubting you, but would like to see for myself. That mental health part in particular, if in America that'd a HIPPA violation to divulge such information.


It'll be on the news by the end of today, with lots more seedy details. A few national radio talk shows have the info.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> And this justifies the actions of the airline how?


I don't recall saying it justified the actions of the airline. I think it _does _give us some insight into the psychological make-up of the individual. 

I've been voluntarily and involuntarily pulled off of a flight. While I don't like it, nobody had to pull me kicking and screaming from the plane. Sometimes in life you just have to make the best of a bad situation.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Belfrybat said:


> Actually, Haypoint is wrong on several levels. First is the doctor did volunteer to be bumped until he found out the next flight available wasn't until the next afternoon and since he had patients to see the next morning he withdrew his offer. This was before the airline started forcing people off.
> 
> The second wrong point Haypoint made was in the amount of compensation. If the airline can't get someone to their destination within two hours of the regular scheduled time (4 hours international), the compensation is 400% the price of the ticket up to $1350.00. The airline stopped offering compensation at $800.00. I imagine if they continued up to the max plus overnight accommodations a few people would have volunteered.
> 
> ...


The report I heard this afternoon, the doctor went off and came back with the flight crew. I’ve also listened to passengers that said the doctor was all over the plane dripping blood and making a nuisance of himself after security got him out of his seat.

In order to say I’m wrong, you’ll have to know the cost of a flight from O’Hare to Louisville. I have no idea what the tickets cost, but if they were $150, the $600 offer meets the requirement. Do you know why they didn’t offer more? Nope, me either. Was there another flight within 2 hours? But if you re-read what I said, I think they should have offered more. I think staff could have avoided this by offering more incentives. But, who knows what policies they are going on? Are the subcontracted airlines operating on different policies from United?

I am hearing criticism on the two officers that struggled with this disruptive doctor. On the TV, Detectives can run a city block and take down a criminal in a single jump and get the cuffs on and walk them to the squad car in a moment. But that is like the Lone Ranger shooting the gun out of the hand of a thousand bad guys without drawing blood.

I’ve been in many dozens of prisoner cell extractions. I don’t go in mono to mono. For my staff’s safety and the safety of the prisoner, I need seven guys. One on each leg, one on each arm, one to keep him from biting or spitting, someone to apply the leg irons and belly chains and someone to run the camera. Even with that amount of manpower, people get hurt. It isn’t synchronized swimming. Things don’t go the way you might expect. But almost always, afterwards, reviewing statements, video, knowing the outcome, anyone can critique the event and find fault. Sometimes serious fault. I'm fairly sure you and your best buddy aren't going to be able to get a resisting passenger off a plane without someone getting hurt. The guy banged his head on an arm rest. Head wounds bleed like crazy, even minor ones.

A jet, loaded to capacity, is tight quarters to work in. If they had brought in seven Airport Security Officers, to escort one old Asian doctor, that would be criticized. As it turns out, two wasn’t enough. But that only becomes known in the instant that he resists and starts flailing around.


----------



## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

haypoint said:


> It
> 
> It'll be on the news by the end of today, with lots more seedy details. A few national radio talk shows have the info.


Thank you, Haypoint.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

“I understand you might bump people because a flight is full,” Fearns said. “But they didn’t say anything at the gate. I was already in the seat. And now they were telling me I had no choice. They said they’d put me in cuffs if they had to.”

http://www.latimes.com/business/laz...ed-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html

Maybe it's just how they do business.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> The report I heard this afternoon, the doctor went off and came back with the flight crew. I’ve also listened to passengers that said the doctor was all over the plane dripping blood and making a nuisance of himself after security got him out of his seat.
> 
> In order to say I’m wrong, you’ll have to know the cost of a flight from O’Hare to Louisville. I have no idea what the tickets cost, but if they were $150, the $600 offer meets the requirement. Do you know why they didn’t offer more? Nope, me either. Was there another flight within 2 hours? But if you re-read what I said, I think they should have offered more. I think staff could have avoided this by offering more incentives. But, who knows what policies they are going on? Are the subcontracted airlines operating on different policies from United?
> 
> ...


Yep, it's his fault he banged his head on the armrest while being dragged down the aisle. 

He probably should have complied before the three officers dragged him off the plane. But it never should have gotten that far in the first place.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> “I understand you might bump people because a flight is full,” Fearns said. “But they didn’t say anything at the gate. I was already in the seat. And now they were telling me I had no choice. They said they’d put me in cuffs if they had to.”
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/laz...ed-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html
> 
> Maybe it's just how they do business.


As I said, it happens. I was seated on an American flight at DFW and they offered incentives to get off of the plane. Nobody took the escalating offers. Finally, they pulled random numbers and one of the seats was mine. I didn't like it one bit and it put me 12 hours later getting a flight to Los Angeles. 

But what are you going to do?


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> "The airline decided" that putting another plane in the air at Louisville was more important than 4 passengers at O'Hare. You and I don't have enough facts to know what the right choice might have been. There are strict hours of work and non-flight hours for the crew. Would a five hour drive get the crew to their flight on time?
> Normally, when a flight is overbooked, they know it prior to boarding. They offer flights and rewards for taking a later flight and allow enough passengers to board based on the number of seats. Easy. But in this situation, the passengers had already boarded and they had to make seats available for the flight crew that was headed to their flight in Louisville.
> 
> Right, wrong or indifferent, out of the millions of passengers that fly each year, airlines overbook and people get bumped to the next flight.


The plane they left on was delayed for three hours so considering flight time, yeah, they would have made it. Considering in those three hours dozens of other flights left O'hare bound for Louisville it's likely four seats could have been found somewhere. Or maybe you plan further ahead to make sure flight crews and planes match up without disrupting the lives of those who pay the bills. Lots of choices. Lots of decisions. Most of them made poorly by all involved.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Jolly said:


> As I said, it happens. I was seated on an American flight at DFW and they offered incentives to get off of the plane. Nobody took the escalating offers. Finally, they pulled random numbers and one of the seats was mine. I didn't like it one bit and it put me 12 hours later getting a flight to Los Angeles.
> 
> But what are you going to do?


We know what you did. Hope you got the full compensation, including meals and payment for any lost work, due you. In cash.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> The plane they left on was delayed for three hours so considering flight time, yeah, they would have made it. Considering in those three hours dozens of other flights left O'hare bound for Louisville it's likely four seats could have been found somewhere. Or maybe you plan further ahead to make sure flight crews and planes match up without disrupting the lives of those who pay the bills. Lots of choices. Lots of decisions. Most of them made poorly by all involved.


I'll bet you forgot the mobs of young adults returning from Spring Break and the rash of major storms that no one could have planned for. I'm sure the airlines were scrambling to keep all their planes running and staffed.
For a civilization to exist, we need everyone to act civilized. In hindsight, things could have been handled differently. But when the pressure is on, procedures followed, all it takes is a knuckle head or two to create havoc.
It is this " I'm special, the rules don't apply to me, no one can tell me what to do, I have no respect for authority" attitude that Social Media thrives on. People that step out into traffic, head down on their smart phone, because pedestrians have the right of way. People that jump out of their cars at a traffic stop, so they can tell the Cops how unfair life is and pull a squirt gun out of their waistband. People that were selected at random to be put off the plane, but think they are special and don't have to. Wake up guy, this isn't jury selection, the airline owns the seat your in. They say get out, you get out. Every minute you hold up the hundred other passengers and the flights following that one is proof you do not belong in a civilized society. So, society has a direct way to get that plane flying again. People are hired to drag your resisting self out of the plane so society can continue.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I'll bet you forgot the mobs of young adults returning from Spring Break and the rash of major storms that no one could have planned for. I'm sure the airlines were scrambling to keep all their planes running and staffed.
> For a civilization to exist, we need everyone to act civilized. In hindsight, things could have been handled differently. But when the pressure is on, procedures followed, all it takes is a knuckle head or two to create havoc.
> It is this " I'm special, the rules don't apply to me, no one can tell me what to do, I have no respect for authority" attitude that Social Media thrives on. People that step out into traffic, head down on their smart phone, because pedestrians have the right of way. People that jump out of their cars at a traffic stop, so they can tell the Cops how unfair life is and pull a squirt gun out of their waistband. People that were selected at random to be put off the plane, but think they are special and don't have to. Wake up guy, this isn't jury selection, the airline owns the seat your in. They say get out, you get out. Every minute you hold up the hundred other passengers and the flights following that one is proof you do not belong in a civilized society. So, society has a direct way to get that plane flying again. People are hired to drag your resisting self out of the plane so society can continue.


There's some doubt that the airline followed FAA procedures. Bumping a passenger for crew travel is a grey area. It's also not clear that the airline gave the passenger a written statement of why he was chosen to be bumped as required by regulations. A civilized society does require people to act civilized. That goes for airline employees and airport security officers as well as passengers. 

The point is that it never should have gotten to the point where someone is dragged down an airplane aisle banging his head off an armrest.


----------



## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

My next cross country trip (next week)... Enterprise Car Rental. 

Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing the airline game. I'll vote with my wallet.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> There's some doubt that the airline followed FAA procedures. Bumping a passenger for crew travel is a grey area. It's also not clear that the airline gave the passenger a written statement of why he was chosen to be bumped as required by regulations. A civilized society does require people to act civilized. That goes for airline employees and airport security officers as well as passengers.
> 
> The point is that it never should have gotten to the point where someone is dragged down an airplane aisle banging his head off an armrest.


Hindsight. Can we agree that those two Airport Security Officers were instructed to escort the guy off the plane? Can we also agree that they had no expectation that the guy would flop himself around and resist as he did? I doubt they get this kind of reaction often. Perhaps never. Suddenly, they are going from escorting an angry passenger to dragging him. Their orders are clear. Their authority is clear. Holding up a multi-billion dollar airline while someone pleads with the guy is not an option. "Go to that plane and get that guy off." seems like a simple direction and they complied with that order. Too bad the doctor wouldn't comply with the simple orders he was given.

Written statement? From the report I heard, they pulled names out of a hat. He felt because he was a doctor, he should be exempt from the drawing. If you give him an exemption, how about the school teacher, dentist, parent of a sick child, on and on, everyone has an excuse.

These guys are the Cops of the airport. In something as simple as a traffic stop, try getting out of your car. Try refusing what ever order the Cop gives you. If they grab you, resist. Then have a family member get on Homesteadingtoday and tell us how it turned out.

If I were on that flight and the guy refused to get off, I want the airport to move swiftly and get that guy off the plane so me and the hundred others can be on our way. If that takes offering him $1000, fine. But if that means dragging him off, I'm fine with that too. But whatever they do, I want it done quickly, clap, clap.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Hindsight. Can we agree that those two Airport Security Officers were instructed to escort the guy off the plane? Can we also agree that they had no expectation that the guy would flop himself around and resist as he did? I doubt they get this kind of reaction often. Perhaps never. Suddenly, they are going from escorting an angry passenger to dragging him. Their orders are clear. Their authority is clear. Holding up a multi-billion dollar airline while someone pleads with the guy is not an option. "Go to that plane and get that guy off." seems like a simple direction and they complied with that order. Too bad the doctor wouldn't comply with the simple orders he was given.
> 
> Written statement? From the report I heard, they pulled names out of a hat. He felt because he was a doctor, he should be exempt from the drawing. If you give him an exemption, how about the school teacher, dentist, parent of a sick child, on and on, everyone has an excuse.
> 
> ...


Three officers, not two. If their training was inadequate to handle the situation without putting this passenger and the rest of those on the airplane in further danger they shouldn't have been there. Foresight. You train for all situations. 

Written statement- 
The Transportation Department says airlines must “give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn’t.” 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html

I'd rather see the airline adjust its policies so no one, neither the doctor or the officers , is put in such a situation again. 

I've told this story before. In October of 2001 while flying from Chicago to Madison our flight was delayed by a passenger who refused the orders of the flight attendant. We sat at the gate for an hour while the pilot and others told him we weren't flying with him on the plane. Eventually he came to his senses when two Chicago police officers boarded and explained he would be leaving. All 6'6" and 240 lbs of him walked peacefully off the plane to the delight of all, except him. The beverage cart was rolled out and drinks were on the pilot for the short flight. If the airline was still around I'd still fly them.

United won. They got him off the plane and their crew where it was needed. But what did they lose in the process?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Three officers, not two. If their training was inadequate to handle the situation without putting this passenger and the rest of those on the airplane in further danger they shouldn't have been there. Foresight. You train for all situations.
> 
> Written statement-
> The Transportation Department says airlines must “give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn’t.”
> ...


I know you won't get the correlation, but this is why Cops with body cameras don't solve anything.
You expect Airport Security officers to be trained in hundreds of different situations. Just not practical. Such training would take months each year and cost airports millions. They get training, but you expect that after a series of split second decisions and after knowing what happened, you want to be able to mull over what happened for a day or two and advise them what they did wrong.
A couple cell phone videos and you think you have the solution. Without any idea of their policies, their orders, their authority or their perception of the incident or their individual skills, you know what they should have done.
The same thing happens with a body camera. A Cop can have a half hour of information leading up to an arrest. The Cop can have a variety of takedown methods, some that look mean to you, plus it is difficult to see and understand how much the alleged criminal is resisting. So, like we do in most things in our lives, we fill in the blurred or missing pieces with our expectations of what is going on. Once you know that the criminal didn't have a real gun in his waistband, you can relax and say, " Why is that Cop so rough, the guy is unarmed?" Being there, in the moment, is different than watching it on TV.

It isn't Groundhog Day, you can't go back to the point just before he threw his nose on the armrest and stop that from happening. You can't go back, in the middle of a forceful removal, and offer him $1000 to take another flight. Events evolve out of your control. That is how life is. This one went from bad to worse.

I like hotdogs, but I don't want to see how they are made. I like Airport Security and I accept that stuff like this is going to happen.

I think where we differ is that you expect perfection from Airport Security and I expect more civilized behavior from passengers. I understand that hired security has the authority to escalate the amount of force necessary to complete the task and it won't always go smoothly.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I know you won't get the correlation, but this is why Cops with body cameras don't solve anything.
> You expect Airport Security officers to be trained in hundreds of different situations. Just not practical. Such training would take months each year and cost airports millions. They get training, but you expect that after a series of split second decisions and after knowing what happened, you want to be able to mull over what happened for a day or two and advise them what they did wrong.
> A couple cell phone videos and you think you have the solution. Without any idea of their policies, their orders, their authority or their perception of the incident or their individual skills, you know what they should have done.
> The same thing happens with a body camera. A Cop can have a half hour of information leading up to an arrest. The Cop can have a variety of takedown methods, some that look mean to you, plus it is difficult to see and understand how much the alleged criminal is resisting. So, like we do in most things in our lives, we fill in the blurred or missing pieces with our expectations of what is going on. Once you know that the criminal didn't have a real gun in his waistband, you can relax and say, " Why is that Cop so rough, the guy is unarmed?" Being there, in the moment, is different than watching it on TV.
> ...


Perfection no, competency yes. I'm not blaming the security officers for what happened. It never should have gotten to that point. They accomplished their task. They never should have had to. 

I've repeatedly said the best outcome is that this situation never comes up again. The doctor should have acted better. But he never should have been put in that position by the airline to begin with. I've shown you the errors they seem to have made. You can go ahead and make all the excuses for their behavior you wish. I'm done.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Not sure if this has been posted but it certainly changes things.

*United Airlines says controversial flight was not overbooked; CEO apologizes again*

The CEO of United Airlines apologized again Tuesday amid a global uproar sparked when a passenger was dragged screaming from his seat on a flight that, it turns out, wasn't even overbooked.

"I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight, and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard," CEO Oscar Munoz said in a statement. "No one should ever be mistreated this way."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lowed-procedures-flier-belligerent/100317166/


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Are you daring to suggest that the CEO of a major airline has his finger on the pulse of major airline happenings more so that a member of a homesteading forum??


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Perfection no, competency yes. I'm not blaming the security officers for what happened. It never should have gotten to that point. They accomplished their task. They never should have had to.
> 
> I've repeatedly said the best outcome is that this situation never comes up again. The doctor should have acted better. But he never should have been put in that position by the airline to begin with. I've shown you the errors they seem to have made. You can go ahead and make all the excuses for their behavior you wish. I'm done.


I think when you expect competency every moment in every day, year in and year out in hundreds of airports, with millions of people on alert to video everything, you expect the impossible: perfection. 

Just to be clear, while many seem to blame the Security Officers, you are fine with their following their orders to get they guy off the plane?
So let's back up a tad. I'll have to assume a bit, but hopefully within logic. Boarding staff, check in all the passengers for this flight. The place has been backed up for days, everyone has a question or a problem. But the passengers are boarded. Then they get the call that since they are short a crew to fly out of Louisville, the airline needs to send a crew of 4 on the next flight out of O'Hare. I've never heard of a passenger change after boarding. But the flight out of Louisville won't happen, a hundred people unable to make their flight, if the crew doesn't get there right away. We don't know if this was a United flight crew or the flight crew that works for this jet's owners. But it is safe to say that matching flight crews, including pilots, to jets coming and going, keeping everyone within their mandated rest periods and flight times has to be challenging.
So, the Boarding staff go into the plane and do the routine "We'll give you free airfare, blah, blah..." like they have done a thousand times before. I'm going to assume there was a $600 limit because that is all they offered. But, passengers that have already stowed their carry on and sat down are less likely to deplane. Let's acknowledge that there was additional confusion as some people left and the famous doctor returned or somehow remained there and regained a seat. If it was possible, I think the Boarding Crew should have asked a higher authority for authorization to up the dollar amount. Perhaps they did and were turned down. Perhaps they knew from training that was the limit. Remember this is an airline contracted to United, not an actual United plane, crew or perhaps Boarding Staff.
So, the Boarding Staff, if we are to believe were following normal procedure, cannot be blamed, so far?
Then they drew names out of a hat and announced that the doctor would not be on this flight. Seems like a fair way to pick someone at random. So, I'm in agreement with the Boarding Crew.
The next event seems sort of cut and dried, too. A guy is asked to leave the plane and refuses. We are operating under the constraints of time. Precious moments have evaporated during this selection process. In situations as this, Airport Security is contacted and the highlights are relayed to them, "We have a guy on board that is refusing to leave. We need him off the plane right away. Middle aged Asian, about 150 pounds." Sounds text book perfect so far.

We can agree that every effort must be made to not load a plane and then attempt to kick a passenger off the plane. Some would say that the airlines should offer larger rewards to entice passengers to take the offer, eliminating being bumped. But that cost, ultimately, is added to my ticket price and I don't want to spend more. 

We can agree that no one intentionally let it get to the point where loaded passengers were asked to leave. But in an uncertain world, unanticipated events present themselves and must be resolved. The self absorbed doctor, struggling to manage anger issues in his daily life, assumes racial bias and goes wild. He'll sue the airline for a million dollars, airfare costs go up for awhile to pay for it and everyone thinks justice has been served.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I think when you expect competency every moment in every day, year in and year out in hundreds of airports, with millions of people on alert to video everything, you expect the impossible: perfection.
> 
> Just to be clear, while many seem to blame the Security Officers, you are fine with their following their orders to get they guy off the plane?
> So let's back up a tad. I'll have to assume a bit, but hopefully within logic. Boarding staff, check in all the passengers for this flight. The place has been backed up for days, everyone has a question or a problem. But the passengers are boarded. Then they get the call that since they are short a crew to fly out of Louisville, the airline needs to send a crew of 4 on the next flight out of O'Hare. I've never heard of a passenger change after boarding. But the flight out of Louisville won't happen, a hundred people unable to make their flight, if the crew doesn't get there right away. We don't know if this was a United flight crew or the flight crew that works for this jet's owners. But it is safe to say that matching flight crews, including pilots, to jets coming and going, keeping everyone within their mandated rest periods and flight times has to be challenging.
> ...


You make a lot of assumptions. I've already pointed out the falsehood of some of them.

Here's another one. The flight the crew needed to make wasn't leaving until the next day


haypoint said:


> I think when you expect competency every moment in every day, year in and year out in hundreds of airports, with millions of people on alert to video everything, you expect the impossible: perfection.
> 
> Just to be clear, while many seem to blame the Security Officers, you are fine with their following their orders to get they guy off the plane?
> So let's back up a tad. I'll have to assume a bit, but hopefully within logic. Boarding staff, check in all the passengers for this flight. The place has been backed up for days, everyone has a question or a problem. But the passengers are boarded. Then they get the call that since they are short a crew to fly out of Louisville, the airline needs to send a crew of 4 on the next flight out of O'Hare. I've never heard of a passenger change after boarding. But the flight out of Louisville won't happen, a hundred people unable to make their flight, if the crew doesn't get there right away. We don't know if this was a United flight crew or the flight crew that works for this jet's owners. But it is safe to say that matching flight crews, including pilots, to jets coming and going, keeping everyone within their mandated rest periods and flight times has to be challenging.
> ...


United Airlines reported net revenues of over $2.3B last year. I'm sure they can take a slight hit from a lawsuit without costing you too much. Though I don't doubt they'll find any excuse to raise fairs.

United flys, on average, 12 flights a day to Louisville from Chicago. Other airlines add at least that many more daily. The flight the crew was needed for wasn't leaving until the following day. 

You'll continue to make all your assumptions about how the airline, security and passengers should have acted and what I agree is right whether they have validity or not and shape your arguments around those views. It's hard to argue rationally against such assumptions and beliefs attributed to me so I won't even try. Maybe you can tell the CEO of United what he should believe and why he's wrong next.


----------



## ijon1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Here is a thought. Why don't the airlines get this all settled before the people are seated.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ijon1 said:


> Here is a thought. Why don't the airlines get this all settled before the people are seated.


I agree 100%. I'll bet the airlines get that settled 99.9% of the time. But out here in reality, stuff happens, things come up. Sometimes it is minor, sometimes major. I'll bet the Booking staff wish they had needed to make room for a 4 person crew, prior to seating them. Last year, airlines offered discounts to many thousands of overbooked passengers. Most of the time people took the offers and took the next plane. In the few times they didn't, a total of 40,000 passengers got bumped off their scheduled flight and had to take the next flight, against their will.

Out of that 40,000, I doubt any required Airport Security to drag them away from the loading area. This guy was an idiot.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I agree 100%. I'll bet the airlines get that settled 99.9% of the time. But out here in reality, stuff happens, things come up. Sometimes it is minor, sometimes major. I'll bet the Booking staff wish they had needed to make room for a 4 person crew, prior to seating them. Last year, airlines offered discounts to many thousands of overbooked passengers. Most of the time people took the offers and took the next plane. In the few times they didn't, a total of 40,000 passengers got bumped off their scheduled flight and had to take the next flight, against their will.
> 
> Out of that 40,000, I doubt any required Airport Security to drag them away from the loading area. This guy was an idiot.


And so was the airline. The airline had no legal, legitimate reason for involuntarily removing this passenger. None of the requirements for legally requiring a passenger to give up his seat were met because the airline messed up. Got an issue with it- take it up with Mr. Munoz. He finally seems to get it.


"No, he can't be," said Munoz when asked if Dao was at fault in any way. "He was a paying passenger sitting on our seat, in our aircraft, and no one should be treated that way."


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

As heard on United Airlines: 

Ding! Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached BRUISING altitude, the seat belt sign is now off.


----------



## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

The incident make me ill at peace. Having just traveled by air, I hate feeling like cattle. I don't like being herded on an airplane, restaurant, movie. Just one of my quirks. I have so many. I have appreciated humor to help with the healing. I also don't like severe turbulence, as a pilot and passenger. I don't know how any of the passengers got over or are getting over that turbulence while still on the ground. I am more sensitive with my cattle. One more of my quirks. I can be bull headed, but I don't like to be.

I have also been at a commercial air disaster site and will always be ill at peace in this area. I have expressed much and said nothing.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I'd thought that maybe first class passengers were more immune to United's ill treatment of customers but apparently not:

http://www.latimes.com/business/laz...ed-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

A different view...

https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress....thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/


----------



## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

My problem has always been that this was crew being put on. Airlines generally schedule their crews for a month so I am not sure why the need for them to be on the flight was not already known. I have volunteered to be bumped to a later flight. They gave me an upgrade instead of a free ticket once when I volunteered straight off the bat asking for nothing when I found out that it was because they needed seats for a family on a last minute bereavement flight.


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

An answer to this problem would be to sell some cheaper tickets with the provision that they will be the first to be delayed in the event of an overbooking. Then, those folks would not have a complaint.

Don't people fly in the first place rather than drive to get somewhere fast? Booting them off to be delayed a day kind of goes against that.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Another eviction.

*Man kicked off flight for 70-pound travel companion*

American Airlines has hit a sour note with one of its regulars.

Musician John Kaboff was in his seat on a plane, headed to Chicago for work out of DC's Reagan National Airport, when he says both the flight attendant and pilot told him he couldn't travel with his companion: a $100,000 cello, which was in a paid-for seat right next to him, reports ABC7.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/07/man-kicked-off-flight-for-70-pound-travel-companion.html


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

MichaelZ said:


> An answer to this problem would be to sell some cheaper tickets with the provision that they will be the first to be delayed in the event of an overbooking. Then, those folks would not have a complaint.
> 
> Don't people fly in the first place rather than drive to get somewhere fast? Booting them off to be delayed a day kind of goes against that.


They do sell standby tickets, you get on when there are seats. A friend always flew that way to save money, until there was a big storm that canceled hundreds of flights and he had to sit at the airport for two days.
Also, friends and family of airline staff get a big break on ticket price, but the catch is that they get bumped first and the must abide by a higher dress code.

If you want to avoid getting bumped, buy first class tickets. No one in first class is getting dragged off the plane.

I had friends that were running in the Boston Marathon. They knew they'd be tired on their return, so got tickets leaving from the two-flights a day local airport. But the flight crew was so close to their maximum passenger flight hours, their flight was switched to an airport 60 miles closer to their stop at Detroit. So, they had to leave their "hometown" airport, drive an hour and get on the same jet with the same crew. I happened to be there to pick up a FedEx package of horse sperm (but I digress) and at that point they weren't sure if their return ticket would be to their "hometown" airport or to this alternate airport, where their car is now parked.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

no really said:


> Another eviction.
> 
> *Man kicked off flight for 70-pound travel companion*
> 
> ...


Here's a United video from 8 years ago:





Here's a United video from 7 years ago:


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

He was OFF and then came back on by sneaking on a 2nd time. Wow what a tool. But he will get a huge OUT OF COURT and undisclosed settlement, and life goes on.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

haypoint said:


> If you want to avoid getting bumped, buy first class tickets. No one in first class is getting dragged off the plane.
> .



I posted an article earlier here about a first class passenger bumped after he was seated and served his pre-flight drink. They threatened to cuff him if he didn't get off.

http://www.latimes.com/business/laz...ed-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Declan said:


> My problem has always been that this was crew being put on. Airlines generally schedule their crews for a month so I am not sure why the need for them to be on the flight was not already known. I have volunteered to be bumped to a later flight. They gave me an upgrade instead of a free ticket once when I volunteered straight off the bat asking for nothing when I found out that it was because they needed seats for a family on a last minute bereavement flight.


I think that month long schedule you speak of went out the window when thousands of flights were canceled due to storms, during returning Spring Break crowd and all airline employees were scrambling to catch back up. A multi-million dollar jet sitting on the tarmac filled with passengers won't go anywhere without a legally rested crew. Getting a crew to the plane seems to me to be critical.


----------



## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Well, it appears that all passengers on the flight are getting compensated the price of their tickets. That's thousands of dollars. So, tell me again why the employees couldn't increase the amount of compensation to get four people to leave voluntarily? That would have been a lot less expensive in all ways than what they did. I hope the doctor gets a huge settlement out of United. They need to change their slogan from "friendly skies" to "abusive skies". Gads, even Congress is now getting involved. So more regulation is sure to follow.


----------



## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

haypoint said:


> I think that month long schedule you speak of went out the window when thousands of flights were canceled due to storms, during returning Spring Break crowd and all airline employees were scrambling to catch back up. A multi-million dollar jet sitting on the tarmac filled with passengers won't go anywhere without a legally rested crew. Getting a crew to the plane seems to me to be critical.





haypoint said:


> I think that month long schedule you speak of went out the window when thousands of flights were canceled due to storms, during returning Spring Break crowd and all airline employees were scrambling to catch back up. A multi-million dollar jet sitting on the tarmac filled with passengers won't go anywhere without a legally rested crew. Getting a crew to the plane seems to me to be critical.


That was almost a month ago. I doubt it had anything to do with this. Most people students are heading into final exams.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Declan said:


> That was almost a month ago. I doubt it had anything to do with this. Most people students are heading into final exams.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_break

I'm no expert on every high school and college, but when the big storm went through a week or two ago, prior to this incident, the news had shown lots of weather related stranded returning students.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think that employees should be trained to a level of competency commiserate with their level of authority 
I don't have a problem with what happened to this man I think it's a classic resisting arrest case. 
What I do have a problem with his airlines very lax attitude about doing their job. 
In my line of work we have done the equivalent of charter a 747 to move one stranded passenger. Airline seem to have no problem with dropping you off in the middle of the Sahara desert and say Oh deal with it. 
As a pilot myself I know it would not have been a major expense for the airline to have chartered a small plane and flown their flight crew down to Louisville on it. 
A small plane that would've handled their flight crew rents for about $200 an hour figure 2 hours down two hours back plus the cost of their own pilot. 
That hardly seems worthwhile to have bothered to put people off that flight in the first place.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Um, to be resisting arrest you have to have violated the law.

It does not matter whether this guy was a tool; whether he lost his medical license, whether he was a white male, an old lady, a blind musician, a child, a muslim, gay or a conservative republican. A judge will look at the facts of the case, it is for the media and the online community to opine and/or sensationalize it.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

One thing I think we can all agree on, knowing how this whole thing evolved, taking time to evaluate what went wrong, it could have been handled better.

Every employee was handling this as standard procedure. That was a miscalculation. While maybe not obvious at the time, getting people to give up their seat is easier while they are in the airport and harder when they are in their seat. As it turns out it is also far easier to block a passenger from entering a plane than it is getting them out of the plane.

For management, offering a few free flights and if that doesn't work, bumping a passenger is far cheaper than chartering a private jet for the 4 person crew. Plus, jumping into a commercial jet that is ready for take off is faster than hunting down a private jet, fueling, locating the pilot.

United owns the jet. If they want you out of their jet, they have the authority. I'm sure there is another term for it, but in simple terms, an unwanted passenger is trespassing.

I think the people in Lowes should be Residential Contractors, but the level of competency is awful. But we accept it because it keep the prices low because they don't pay their employees much. Same for the airlines. Most are capable of doing their jobs and doing the normal stuff well, for low wages. But when you need the communication skills of a high priced lawyer, they are going to show their shortcomings.

I doubt the Boarding Staff were trained in negotiating passengers out of their seats, while passengers were in them. I doubt the Boarding Staff decided among themselves to limit the offers to $600. The random draw, to figure who has to miss their flight, sounds like a procedure that they had done hundreds of times, but with people not yet boarded. They were following procedures. Short sighted, cheapskate, come back and bite you in the butt, management dictated procedures. Generally their policies work out and the airline can pay the stockholders a dividend.

How could this all have been different? If the doctor would have accepted being bumped from that flight. Period. End of story. The airline has the right to do that. It's in the contract you signed.


----------



## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

I think to resist arrest you must be told you are under arrest whether or not you believe a crime has been committed by you...you must still allow yourself to be arrested and then sort it out later.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> For management, offering a few free flights and if that doesn't work, bumping a passenger is far cheaper than chartering a private jet for the 4 person crew. Plus, jumping into a commercial jet that is ready for take off is faster than hunting down a private jet, fueling, locating the pilot.


 No need for that a $200 a hour plane could have had them there in two hours. 
Heck I might be wrong but I'd bet someone on the flight crew could fly a plane.....


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> No need for that a $200 a hour plane could have had them there in two hours.
> Heck I might be wrong but I'd bet someone on the flight crew could fly a plane.....


I think FAA a bunch of rules about flying time, passenger time, number of rest hours, etc.

Sort of funny to imagine that a 747 pilot and his three crew could just walk over to a private jet or a Hertz rent a jet and swipe his credit card and taxi down an available O'Hare runway.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yes pilot time is very valuable to airlines. 
To be honest I do wish national or enterprize had a plane rental. 
But I doubt this would have been a jet misson if the airline hadn't had one going there already. 
With a flight distance of about 300 miles a simple propeller plane would have been the appropriate choice. 
That would have been outside the box thinking for the airline though. 
Most small plane rental requires the plane to be returned to the renting location that's why I figgered two down two back $800 total
Cheaper than the seat sales lost orders of magnitude less than the bad will generated. And many many orders of magnitude less then the bad impression given the country.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Interesting opinion piece by law prof at Cornell. He says United had no legal right to force a passenger off the plane.

http://www.newsweek.com/why-united-were-legally-wrong-deplane-dr-dao-583535


----------



## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Seems like guitars aren't the only thing United breaks!


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

That guy needs to write a new song. Tazin' Asians. Tried to go clean, now he's just a meme. If United needs your seat, you are going to get beat.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

With most such episodes, there was a lot of errors by all parties involved. United made the biggest mistake by assigning seats on an overbooked flight. We have all (that have flown regularly) experienced this. But, who is programming their systems that assign more seats than the plane has? I can see selling more tickets because not everyone shows up. How can you assign the same seat to more than one person?

United made another error in not offering sufficient incentive for a seated passenger to give up his seat. Four seats? How can you not up the reward until sufficient takers? 

The passenger made the most minor of all errors in stating he wasn't giving up his seat no matter what, yet suffered terrible consequences. I understand. But, he should have just sat there and stated he paid for his seat and had to get home and not dared anyone to 'drag him' off.

The most egregious error was CPD. Their behavior was by far the most inexcusable. What are they, corporate thugs from a bygone era (Pinkerton style)? What crime did this man commit that merited force of that nature? Not giving up a seat that he had paid for, waited through nazi style examination at the airport and assigned a seat from the airline itself? What the heck man?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Someone that won't follow the instructions of the crew is obviously a threat and should be removed from the plane and placed in custody for a few months for observation


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Um, to be resisting arrest you have to have violated the law.


It's illegal to not leave a plane when so instructed.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I haven't been bumped from a flight (yet), but flying a little puddle jumper out of Cody, Wyoming one time, they needed volunteers to wait for the next flight because the little jet was over weight! It still took some wheedling and bribes to get people off, because the next flight wasn't for hours. Also we had to sit in the plane and wait for luggage to be re-arranged and even some passengers re-arranged to get the weight distributed properly, front to rear. I think it was more about the length of the runway, or lack thereof, than the capability of the little jet. My co-worker who was with me is a white-knuckle flyer anyway, I thought he might really lose it that time!


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's illegal to not leave a plane when so instructed.


Looks like they are rewriting policy or regs or rules or fine print depending on your pov.

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...Crew Can&amp;#39;t Displace Seated Passengers


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's illegal to not leave a plane when so instructed.


It is unlawful to disobey a reasonable order from a flight crew. If they told you to strip to your underwear and dance for everyone, it isn't illegal to not oblige. There is nothing this man did to justify the use of such force.


----------



## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Hiro said:


> It is unlawful to disobey a reasonable order from a flight crew. If they told you to strip to your underwear and dance for everyone, it isn't illegal to not oblige. There is nothing this man did to justify the use of such force.


Even if BFF doesn't acknowledge this, United had acknowledged it and making changes as well as the other airlines.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hiro said:


> It is unlawful to disobey a reasonable order from a flight crew. If they told you to strip to your underwear and dance for everyone, it isn't illegal to not oblige. *There is nothing this man did to justify the use of such force*.





coolrunnin said:


> *Even if BFF doesn't acknowledge this*, United had acknowledged it and making changes as well as the other airlines.


I offered no opinions on anything.
I simply replied to the statement I quoted, and nothing more:



GTX63 said:


> Um, to be resisting arrest you have to have violated the law.


The Chicago PD made the decision to do what they did without consulting me.
United made their statements after the fact.



> It is unlawful to disobey a reasonable order from a flight crew


That's what I said too.


----------



## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

Yes, I love flying. Especially in a Cessna 150, not rated for aerobatics doing a split s or hammer head stall with my best friend Clay. Ok, next?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Westwood said:


> Yes, I love flying. Especially in a Cessna 150, not rated for aerobatics doing a split s or hammer head stall with my best friend Clay. Ok, next?


WESTWOOD!!! So good to see you back!


----------



## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> WESTWOOD!!! So good to see you back!


Hugs at you! Any less toxic than it used to be?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Westwood said:


> Hugs at you! Any less toxic than it used to be?


Right back at you!
The dark room is...I opted out of there. It'd be great to get some of the old timers back.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Hiro said:


> It is unlawful to disobey a reasonable order from a flight crew. If they told you to strip to your underwear and dance for everyone, it isn't illegal to not oblige. There is nothing this man did to justify the use of such force.


 Not exactly true. Things depend on situations. 
In your example a terrorist insisting on a underwear dance or he blows up the plane would probably make it reasonable. 
In this case asking the man to deplane would be reasonable. Failure to do so made. What happened to him ........well a mess.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

AmericanStand said:


> Not exactly true. Things depend on situations.
> In your example a terrorist insisting on a underwear dance or he blows up the plane would probably make it reasonable.
> In this case asking the man to deplane would be reasonable. Failure to do so made. What happened to him ........well a mess.


I would have to disagree that it was reasonable order to ask a seated passenger to disembark, so that someone more important to the airline takes the seat. It would be reasonable if there was a safety issue. You don't use federal safety rules (which is what obeying a flight crew is for) to justify a decision of temporary convenience for your business.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I agree the airlines reasoning seems falty. 
But did the passenger even know why he was being disembarked ?
If it was a weight and balance issue the lives of all on the plane would have been at stake. 
As it was the inconvenience of four people was up against that of hundreds.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I agree the airlines reasoning seems falty.
> But did the passenger even know why he was being disembarked ?
> If it was a weight and balance issue the lives of all on the plane would have been at stake.
> As it was the inconvenience of four people was up against that of hundreds.





It could very well have been a safety issue, such as 4 fresh crew members were needed elsewhere to relieve pilots working out of an airport that had big delays due to the bad weather that just rolled thru the South and Midwest.
That would have been a legitimate reason, especially if you overlook that keeping the flights going also has a profit motive. 
Much like a cop, a pilot could probably make a safety issue sound reasonable under most circumstances, if he wanted to.

But you gotta at least make it sound legit.
If it there was a critical weight issue, wouldn't it make more sense to offload some baggage and compensate the passengers for luggage delays, rather than booting off people?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I didn't mean to say it was a weight issue only ment to point out that the passenger may not have known why he needed removed.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

This one sounds like it's also the passengers fault which is not to excuse the blow up from the FA. I've flown a lot with kids and who would imagine youncoukd bring a stroller in board? You check it at the gate. Wonder if this airline doesn't preboard passengers with young kids...


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Well looks like another disruptive passenger on a plane makes the news.
This one of course is ready to put everyone on the plane in danger so that her illogical actions comfort her. 
Another passenger with the same gene leaps up and it assaults a flight attendant apparently because he can't stand a woman crying and automatically assumes she must be defended. 

Do they qualify as morons? Does the airline qualify as moron for kowtowing to them?


----------

