# How to find property without zoning restrictions?



## nerys

How would I go about finding out which areas (for example in pennsylvania) lack zoning restrictions?

ie low taxes and not having to ask permission to build every little thing.


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## stanb999

nerys said:


> How would I go about finding out which areas (for example in pennsylvania) lack zoning restrictions?
> 
> ie low taxes and not having to ask permission to build every little thing.


In Pa. 

Zoning... You have to check. Very rural doesn't matter. One way to tell is a lot of towns put up the signs that state "This is a zoned community".

Low taxes. Depends on what you would call low. Mine are cheap to some but oppressive to me. 

You will need a building permit and inspections for most building in most areas. Agriculture buildings and buildings having less than 1000 SQ can be exempt. Once again you must check. 

Don't ask for permission. A lot of rural towns will give you a permit if you ask. They have no one to enforce the code, so if you don't ask. how would anyone know?


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## Evons hubby

Its getting tougher all the time and just being rural means very little. Here in Kentucky there are still some counties that have no zoning but you need to ask and verify before you purchase. I would check with the county court clerks office in the county you are interested in.


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## Gray Wolf

Insuring a place built without permits and inspections may be hard. Getting them to pay a claim may be harder. If you plan on insuring your buildings, I'd check first.


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## Molly Mckee

Here they take photos from planes every two years state wide to compare and see if anything is new. The restrictions change by county, but most counties will make you expose anything that should be inspected, or take it down, as well as fine you. Don't forget that if you sell you have to sign a statement in most areas the every thing was built to code, and permitted.


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## TedH71

Entire state of Kansas has zoning now but in some counties, less strict than others but they require all housing to be built with safety in mind so I wouldn't freak out about it.


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## ozarkchaz

California= ZONING HELL!


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## wharton

stanb999 said:


> In Pa.
> 
> 
> Don't ask for permission. A lot of rural towns will give you a permit if you ask. They have no one to enforce the code, so if you don't ask. how would anyone know?


 , 
As a builder in PA. I can see how this is asking for trouble. Townships have the option of enforcing the IRC building codes themselves, contracting with a single source to do it for them, providing a list of several different independent inspectors to chose from, or allowing the state to handle it for them. They DO NOT have the option of ignoring the law. Believe it or not, a lot of local officials will use current satelite views of their kingdoms, on a regular basis, to find improvements that don't show up on the tax rolls. Our local township is currently run by a few professional criminals who conviently can't find a lot of building permits, and occupancy permits, particularly those belonging to anybody that could be a political opponent, or who questions what they do at meetings. Believe me, a building that lacks a zoning, building or occupancy permit can be a real trip through hell, if you run into an issue.


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## sisterpine

In MT they flew over every once in a while and tried to get you to respond to surveys regarding your property that is isolated or very rural. I worry more, in AZ about CCRs than I do zoning...I dont like being told that I cannot raise junk cars if that is what I want to do.


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## wharton

ozarkchaz said:


> California= ZONING HELL!


I have some friends in the construction industry in CA. Hell is mild. It's a whole other planet. In the past I have done some pretty large Habitat projects in the bay and in LA. The fact that anything gets done, or that anybody can afford to live there, is a testiment to shear will to persevere and overcome. It's nothing to get together with a few construction professionals and spend a whole evening listening to stories that just blow your mind. Tens of thousands in fees and years of appeals for the "right" to build a modest single family home. Being denied permits on the first several attempts, while trying to build affordable housing in the gang violence hell of Watts, because the "neighborhood committee" had issues with the astetics of the proposed homes..........

The sad part is that this mentality of uber-regulation, out of control bureaucracy, and loss of freedom is becoming a reality in some of the most rural parts of our country. In the last few years, permits for a simple, affordable home in my neighborhood have quadrupled in cost, and the useless, clueless bureacrats have turned every step of the process into a battle.


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## simi-steading

I got lucky and stumbled on no zoning in WV for our place... I didn't think that existed any more any where since the government is always looking for one more way to make a buck.. Anyway, I can build what I want how I want without a permit or inspections, unless I want a well or septic.. those I have to apply for permits and have inspected..


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## beowoulf90

wharton said:


> ,
> As a builder in PA. I can see how this is asking for trouble. Townships have the option of enforcing the IRC building codes themselves, contracting with a single source to do it for them, providing a list of several different independent inspectors to chose from, or allowing the state to handle it for them. They DO NOT have the option of ignoring the law. Believe it or not, a lot of local officials will use current satelite views of their kingdoms, on a regular basis, to find improvements that don't show up on the tax rolls. Our local township is currently run by a few professional criminals who conviently can't find a lot of building permits, and occupancy permits, particularly those belonging to anybody that could be a political opponent, or who questions what they do at meetings. Believe me, a building that lacks a zoning, building or occupancy permit can be a real trip through hell, if you run into an issue.


Agreed, PA has Zoning for the entire State..

Depending on which part depends on which IBC (International Building Codes) . PA as a State adopted these in the past (I think in or about 2000). They presently are at the IBC 2009 codes, they have not adopted the 2012 codes yet, but will likely do so soon.. Now some areas also allow the ASHRAE (I think that is the correct acronym) codes for energy for now. I only deal with the IPC (International Plumbing Codes) under the IBC, but know the rest exist and are used..


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## Hoopjohn

The flip side of no zoning means that Jed Clampett can move his old grubby 1960 trailer next to your property, have a dozen non-stop barking dogs, start a junkyard, hog rendering works, strip bar, gun shooting range, or adult book store. 
If you have no issue with such intrusions that can affect the quiet enjoyment of your property as well as protecting your housing investment, by all means, go into an area that is not zoned and take your chances.

Even in a zoned area, there will be trashy morons that constantly butt heads with zoning officials and start junkyards on one acre lots in residential neighborhoods. It may take years, but eventually these morons will be fined out of the neighborhood.

If you want to build a nice house, and be certain that your investment will be stable, go into a zoned area. Which is exactly why zoning will eventually be the law of the land.


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## Terri

Our city hall has a large map on one wall showing what is zoned what. If an area is not colored it is not zoned. But, everything by now is colored!

I suppose you can call the city hall or the county courthouse and ask!


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## IowaLez

Here in rural NE Iowa, there are no building permits to take out to build anything, unless you are in a town or city. In our closest town, they do not have inspectors, and the town council approves permits at open meetings, with the notices published in the newspaper. The only permit needed for rural property is a septic permit on new construction. Every year they send each property owner a letter, asking them to declare any taxable additions to the property, it is honor system. Our property taxes are not low, but they aren't horrible either. The lack of permits and inspections has no effect on getting insurance. Our house was built in 1900 by hand, and we have insurance without a problem. Nobody builds to less than code, they are not stupid, poor or lazy to cut corners. Nobody wants a piece of crap house. As far as lack of zoning being bad, the people here keep their places neat and tidy, and we respect each other's space and don't do things that impact neighbor's lives in a bad way. The worst is when the neighbor pumps out the slurry pool for his 2500 hog operation and manures the fields, but we say it's the smell of freedom, because they give us the freedom to do what we want, too.


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## wharton

beowoulf90 said:


> Agreed, PA has Zoning for the entire State..
> 
> Depending on which part depends on which IBC (International Building Codes) . PA as a State adopted these in the past (I think in or about 2000). They presently are at the IBC 2009 codes, they have not adopted the 2012 codes yet, but will likely do so soon.. Now some areas also allow the ASHRAE (I think that is the correct acronym) codes for energy for now. I only deal with the IPC (International Plumbing Codes) under the IBC, but know the rest exist and are used..


 Better hope that that 2012 version isn't adopted anytime soon. It has onerous, and unaffordable, upgrades to insulation and air infiltration, and will make most rural construction unaffordable to the masses. Don't be fooled by these folks. they are zealots. No different that the extreme right that wants to eliminate the middle class and return us to pre-new deal, third world status, or the wacko lefties that think that we can create a socialist utopia, the ICC folks are just as crazy. They want to quickly force a new model of "net-zero" as the law regarding rural single family home construction. This would create a mind blowingly expensive product that would generate more power than it uses, using superinsulation, passive and active solar, wind, and othe "green' energy to create a utility free home. If you do any research into the "LEEDS" BS that is used by a lot of governments and trendy architects, they are now having to admit that it is pretty much a failure. The "Net-Zero" game will be no different, but it will drive most builders and customers out of the rural market, and contribute to a continuing erosion of our freedom.


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## simi-steading

I work in a LEEDS building.. don't get me stated.. huge joke.. .


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## blooba

nerys said:


> How would I go about finding out which areas (for example in pennsylvania) lack zoning restrictions?
> 
> ie low taxes and not having to ask permission to build every little thing.


In PA, you need inspections and permits everywhere that I know of.

Almost all places you need a permit for a septic except i think some counties of MO (there are stipulations) 

Last I checked KY,TN,CO,WV,AZ,AK,NM(and maybe MT..i think) had a few counties left with no building permits and/or inspections but they are few and far between and usually out in the middle of nowhere (like 2+hr drive to a city)

You need to pick an area and then look at rules and regs in that area of what you can and cannot do without a permit/inspection/zoning and pick the ones you can live with and cannot live with.


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## Trailsend

No zoning or restrictions here in Laclede Co, MO. Extremely low taxes and cost of living. Very nice rural area.


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## IowaLez

One negative aspect of low taxes, is the lower quality of living, and the lack of services. Some of you may disagree with that, but I would argue it is true.

Especially as we get older, medical care is important. Local hospitals are often funded with local tax dollars. Having a good hospital and medical care is important for everybody, so its public funding is a good investment. When you have a baby, a safe place to have it is desireable. There are frequent farm accidents in rural areas, that require good doctors at the emergency room and air transport by helicopter to larger urban medical centers. When your arm or hand gets ripped off in the tractor's PTO, you really want capable care and adequate response and good facilities.

And you need sheriffs to respond when you call for help. They get paid with tax dollars. No tax money equals no response in an emergency. There are truly numerous grain bin accidents and deaths in the Midwestern rural areas. Just last month 3 men were sucked into the corn in a gigantic bin at a mill, 2 died and a huge team of sheriffs, firemen and emergency responders took 5 hours of frantic work to cut through the bin wall and pull him out. Without tax dollars there won't be those people around.

And your local schools depend on local tax dollars. Low taxes make for crappy schools, lacking resources for student education and the school's acquisition and retainment of well-educated, talented teachers.

The list can go on. I guess it depends on what's important to you.


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## beowoulf90

wharton said:


> Better hope that that 2012 version isn't adopted anytime soon. It has onerous, and unaffordable, upgrades to insulation and air infiltration, and will make most rural construction unaffordable to the masses. Don't be fooled by these folks. they are zealots. No different that the extreme right that wants to eliminate the middle class and return us to pre-new deal, third world status, or the wacko lefties that think that we can create a socialist utopia, the ICC folks are just as crazy. They want to quickly force a new model of "net-zero" as the law regarding rural single family home construction. This would create a mind blowingly expensive product that would generate more power than it uses, using superinsulation, passive and active solar, wind, and othe "green' energy to create a utility free home. If you do any research into the "LEEDS" BS that is used by a lot of governments and trendy architects, they are now having to admit that it is pretty much a failure. The "Net-Zero" game will be no different, but it will drive most builders and customers out of the rural market, and contribute to a continuing erosion of our freedom.


Oh don't worry I only have to follow the IBC codes and have filed many complaints against them in the past.. They are, as you said "zealots" who just want more extreme Left wing liberal government control.. (Yea I can do the same as you and bring politics into a non political thread).

My point is PA does not have an area the isn't controlled by zoning. Now some areas may not enforce the IBC yet, but they will at some point..

I also have to deal with the LEEDS BS.. What a joke! it's almost as bad as buying carbon credits from Gore.. But if that is what the customer wants or the government enforces, I as Plumbing estimator / designer have to abide if I want to win bids and keep working..


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## wharton

beowoulf90 said:


> Oh don't worry I only have to follow the IBC codes and have filed many complaints against them in the past.. They are, as you said "zealots" who just want more extreme Left wing liberal government control.. (Yea I can do the same as you and bring politics into a non political thread).
> 
> My point is PA does not have an area the isn't controlled by zoning. Now some areas may not enforce the IBC yet, but they will at some point..
> 
> I also have to deal with the LEEDS BS.. What a joke! it's almost as bad as buying carbon credits from Gore.. But if that is what the customer wants or the government enforces, I as Plumbing estimator / designer have to abide if I want to win bids and keep working..


I don't think in the case of the local agencies, or firms that do the enforcement, that it has much to do with ideology. It's more a case of a true love for bureacracy, and the rich reward it brings them. On of my competitors just submitted a standard plan for a home that he had built rough three dozen times, in this juristiction. The woman doing plan review rejected the plan with nineteen different areas of concern. She had personally approved and inspected this house dozens of times in the recent past! The builder turned around and had the drawings redone by a licensed engineer and stamped. Now this actually did a lot of harm to the builder, and benefit the code enforcement firm greatly. They still get $800 ( repeatedly)to "review" the drawings for a simple little structure that they are intimately familiar with already. They are absolved of all liability for anything they missed. They don't really have to waste ten seconds of billable time on really reviewing what the engineer approved, he has all the liability and the code officer has little standing, or interest, in challenging his work. Finally, the code agency can demand that the work be performed EXACTLY to the drawings, or they can generate a whole new set of fees reviewing planned or even completed, yet unauthorized, changes. So, the game is elevated, the individual loses more freedom, and the bureacracy ends up with much more control, less responsibility, and liability, and makes conciderably more profit in the transaction. As you can imagine, our local officials are nearly BEGGING the local commisions to mandate engineered, or architecturally stamped drawings. 

After the fire sprinkler fraud, the clowns in Harrisburg finally wised up to the fact that the ICC is capable of destroying single family home construction as a driver of the economy. I think the ICC smartened up also, and discovered that having total control, the ability to make new construction mind blowingly expensive, the ability to mandate material and techniques pushed by the largest and most powerful manufacturers, and the ability to create a giant, all controlling beaucracy are all things that need to be done slowly. It started three decades ago with totally unneccessary, and horrendously expensive on-site septic systems. Since then they have slowly turned the screws. When it's all said and done, "economy" grade construction will be $300 sq. ft. in rural America, and the choice will be existing housing stock or double wides for the average Joe. New homes will be simply out of reach.


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## beowoulf90

wharton said:


> I don't think in the case of the local agencies, or firms that do the enforcement, that it has much to do with ideology. It's more a case of a true love for bureacracy, and the rich reward it brings them. On of my competitors just submitted a standard plan for a home that he had built rough three dozen times, in this juristiction. The woman doing plan review rejected the plan with nineteen different areas of concern. She had personally approved and inspected this house dozens of times in the recent past! The builder turned around and had the drawings redone by a licensed engineer and stamped. Now this actually did a lot of harm to the builder, and benefit the code enforcement firm greatly. They still get $800 ( repeatedly)to "review" the drawings for a simple little structure that they are intimately familiar with already. They are absolved of all liability for anything they missed. They don't really have to waste ten seconds of billable time on really reviewing what the engineer approved, he has all the liability and the code officer has little standing, or interest, in challenging his work. Finally, the code agency can demand that the work be performed EXACTLY to the drawings, or they can generate a whole new set of fees reviewing planned or even completed, yet unauthorized, changes. So, the game is elevated, the individual loses more freedom, and the bureacracy ends up with much more control, less responsibility, and liability, and makes conciderably more profit in the transaction. As you can imagine, our local officials are nearly BEGGING the local commisions to mandate engineered, or architecturally stamped drawings.
> 
> After the fire sprinkler fraud, the clowns in Harrisburg finally wised up to the fact that the ICC is capable of destroying single family home construction as a driver of the economy. I think the ICC smartened up also, and discovered that having total control, the ability to make new construction mind blowingly expensive, the ability to mandate material and techniques pushed by the largest and most powerful manufacturers, and the ability to create a giant, all controlling beaucracy are all things that need to be done slowly. It started three decades ago with totally unneccessary, and horrendously expensive on-site septic systems. Since then they have slowly turned the screws. When it's all said and done, "economy" grade construction will be $300 sq. ft. in rural America, and the choice will be existing housing stock or double wides for the average Joe. New homes will be simply out of reach.



I understand all of that.. I will agree that the CLOWNS in Harrisburg finally wised up, for a moment at least.. 

I do the Plumbing estimating for the company I work for, mainly Commercial plumbing from commercial kitchens to large manufacturers.. 
But I was hired here over 10 years ago as the Draftsman/CADD Operator and due to budget cuts still do all the drawings we generate, but have an added job/title as plumbing estimator. I used to do the drawings for 5 estimators, now there is only 1 HVAC Estimator and me doing the Plumbing Estimating..

I was also just told this morning that PA will be adopting the 2012 IBC/ICC/IEC etc in 2014 and ASHRAE 90.1 will no longer be allowed..

The IEC (International Energy Code) will hurt most people and businesses in the HVAC department.. It requires economizer on any system 4 or 5 Ton and larger.. Well those 4 and 5 Ton units will hurt many homebuilders and small businesses..

I see it already.. I've also seen the increased cost to do this..


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## wharton

beowoulf90 said:


> I understand all of that.. I will agree that the CLOWNS in Harrisburg finally wised up, for a moment at least..
> 
> I do the Plumbing estimating for the company I work for, mainly Commercial plumbing from commercial kitchens to large manufacturers..
> But I was hired here over 10 years ago as the Draftsman/CADD Operator and due to budget cuts still do all the drawings we generate, but have an added job/title as plumbing estimator. I used to do the drawings for 5 estimators, now there is only 1 HVAC Estimator and me doing the Plumbing Estimating..
> 
> I was also just told this morning that PA will be adopting the 2012 IBC/ICC/IEC etc in 2014 and ASHRAE 90.1 will no longer be allowed..
> 
> The IEC (International Energy Code) will hurt most people and businesses in the HVAC department.. It requires economizer on any system 4 or 5 Ton and larger.. Well those 4 and 5 Ton units will hurt many homebuilders and small businesses..
> 
> I see it already.. I've also seen the increased cost to do this..


You might have a better feel for some of the costs involved, but I find it hard to believe that the next code cycle isn't going to wipe out a lot of small builders in the state. By the time you do the 15/10 exterior envelope, the HVAC upgrades and testing, and the other cost increases, It's going to be pretty tough to convince the buyer to spend 20-30% more for a house that doesn't appraise for a dime more than one build a week before the code was changed. It wouldn't surprise me to see things grind to a dead stop, like it did during the few months the sprinker mandate was enforced. As a guy about to close down a business, and retire, I hate to end it on this note. It used to be a pleasant and honorable profession. Now it's a never ending battle.


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## beowoulf90

wharton said:


> You might have a better feel for some of the costs involved, but I find it hard to believe that the next code cycle isn't going to wipe out a lot of small builders in the state. By the time you do the 15/10 exterior envelope, the HVAC upgrades and testing, and the other cost increases, It's going to be pretty tough to convince the buyer to spend 20-30% more for a house that doesn't appraise for a dime more than one build a week before the code was changed. It wouldn't surprise me to see things grind to a dead stop, like it did during the few months the sprinker mandate was enforced. As a guy about to close down a business, and retire, I hate to end it on this note. It used to be a pleasant and honorable profession. Now it's a never ending battle.


I hear ya.. Unfortunately the politicians have created their own little thiefdoms. Especially local politicians.. 

But you can't build anything without the Code Enforcers signing off..


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## Ken in Maine

Our property here in Saint Albans Maine has no zoning and it is for sale. 14 acres... former goat farm.. was certified organic

http://www.goatschool.com/id30.html


A building permit is still only $5.00. Well worth a look.


We also have a 6.29 acre parcel nearby that we'd sell with owner financing. If interested in either e-mail [email protected]


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## wharton

IowaLez said:


> One negative aspect of low taxes, is the lower quality of living, and the lack of services. Some of you may disagree with that, but I would argue it is true.
> 
> Especially as we get older, medical care is important. Local hospitals are often funded with local tax dollars. Having a good hospital and medical care is important for everybody, so its public funding is a good investment. When you have a baby, a safe place to have it is desireable. There are frequent farm accidents in rural areas, that require good doctors at the emergency room and air transport by helicopter to larger urban medical centers. When your arm or hand gets ripped off in the tractor's PTO, you really want capable care and adequate response and good facilities.
> 
> And you need sheriffs to respond when you call for help. They get paid with tax dollars. No tax money equals no response in an emergency. There are truly numerous grain bin accidents and deaths in the Midwestern rural areas. Just last month 3 men were sucked into the corn in a gigantic bin at a mill, 2 died and a huge team of sheriffs, firemen and emergency responders took 5 hours of frantic work to cut through the bin wall and pull him out. Without tax dollars there won't be those people around.
> 
> And your local schools depend on local tax dollars. Low taxes make for crappy schools, lacking resources for student education and the school's acquisition and retainment of well-educated, talented teachers.
> 
> The list can go on. I guess it depends on what's important to you.


 
OTOH, it's not hard to find a lot of places where taxes are absolutely an unbearable burden, yet there are few services that seem to justify the cost. Rural NY, NJ , PA are full of examples. Here in my county in N.E PA. we are ranked in the 98th percentile, nationwide, when it comes to tax burden. We have no local or regional police, or sheriff's protection. Our schools are hardly noteworthy. Our county is so broke that they have cut back as far as they can and cut salaries and hours drastically. As for medical care, there are many rural areas where you can be amazingly close to world class facilities, yet not go broke paying excessive taxes. One choice for us would be to relocate to southwestern VA. We could have a matching rural property, worth a similar amount, and be a few minutes from a world class university heath care system, while reducing our tax burden by a huge amount. Real estate taxes would be 80-85% less.


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## Joshie

I would hate to purchase a house built with no code or any inspections. I'd be scared to death about was behind the walls.


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## wharton

Joshie said:


> I would hate to purchase a house built with no code or any inspections. I'd be scared to death about was behind the walls.


 Well then you would be suffering from an irrational fear, and placing an unreasonable amount of faith in big brother's ability to protect you. At this point I am working in a jurisdiction that has two full time inspectors that haven't got a clue. They have all the right certifications, and a big list of initials behind their signatures, but neither of them can find their own butt with two hands and a flashlight. It's so bad that one of them just approved an electrical service on one of my homes, then showed up two weeks later, looked at the WELL line in the trench and commented, "I see you are ready to get the power hooked up". Now nothing in the trench looked like it had anything to do with an incoming electrical service, and he had already inspected, and approved, the overhead wires feeding the power to the house. 
Bottom line is that I can build you a really well done, technically correct product that I take pride in. My competitor can build the exact home next door, and build an absolute piece of garbage. But we can both show you the thousands of $ we spent for permits and inspections, and the log of approved inspections from start to finish. Doesn't mean a thing. Inspections and codes are about advancing the power and lining the pockets of the bureaucracy, nothing more. I can build in one jurisdiction where the code enforcement is obsessive and the job gets done to a well regulated minimum standard, I can go 1/4 mile down the road to another jurisdiction where it's all about the fees, and the enforcement is weak at best. It's all a fraud.


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## CesumPec

you might consider moving to FLorida. No permits required for ag construction, no income taxes, and my RE taxes for ag zoned property is about $4/acre. of course once I build a house the taxes on the home site will go up significantly.


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## unregistered168043

You have to check with the town and county offices to find out the zoning for a particular area. When I was looking for property I collected a lot of perspective properties that had the traits I was looking for...acreage, wood lot size, pasture, rural local, low property taxes. Then I checked 2 things...the ZONING and the soil survey maps. Then a soil sample to the cooperative extension.

I am zoned unrestricted rural and have excellent sandy loam.


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## stanb999

beowoulf90 said:


> My point is PA does not have an area the isn't controlled by zoning. Now some areas may not enforce the IBC yet, but they will at some point..


The green has zoning. The rest don't.


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## beowoulf90

I would argue that Stan.. They have zoning, but don't enforce it or have enforcement officers.. 

PA adopted the IBC years ago.. So as a State PA does have it...


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## stanb999

beowoulf90 said:


> I would argue that Stan.. They have zoning, but don't enforce it or have enforcement officers..
> 
> PA adopted the IBC years ago.. So as a State PA does have it...


Your confusing building codes and zoning. They are two different things.

That map is from the county website found here.

http://planning.co.wayne.pa.us/subdivision-zoning/zoning/


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## beowoulf90

stanb999 said:


> Your confusing building codes and zoning. They are two different things.
> 
> That map is from the county website found here.
> 
> http://planning.co.wayne.pa.us/subdivision-zoning/zoning/


You would be correct I did confuse Zoning with building codes..


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