# Don't Thank A Vet for His Service?



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

> To some recent vets â by no stretch all of them â the thanks comes across as shallow, disconnected, a reflexive offering from people who, while meaning well, have no clue what soldiers did over there or what motivated them to go, and who would never have gone themselves nor sent their own sons and daughters.





> Interestingly and satisfyingly, it appears the phony âthank you for your serviceâ comment is seen as the empty, thoughtless platitude it is by a large amount of U.S. veterans. Rather than saying âthank your for your service,â it appears increasingly clear the appropriate sentiment should be something like, âIâm really sorry American leadership carelessly sacrificed your life for no good reason.â


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...nately-pleads-please-dont-thank-me-my-service

So how do you feel, especially about our recent wars? Are you a veteran, or someone in your family? Is this just a few or is it many?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

I am not a vet, but I am the daughter of a vet. (WW2, Korea and Nam)
I do sincerely thank the vets I see, and living across the road from an AFB I have many opportunities to do so. 

Usually I am able to offer a service with my thanks. Such as letting them go ahead of me in a long line. They are small services, but given with gratitude in the attitude makes it worthwhile.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

I used to say "thank you for your service" but both my father-in-law (a disabled Korean-era Army vet) and my brother (Vietnam-era USMC) told me they find it annoying, so I quit.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

It always embarrassed me.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

BlackFeather said:


> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...nately-pleads-please-dont-thank-me-my-service
> 
> So how do you feel, especially about our recent wars? Are you a veteran, or someone in your family? Is this just a few or is it many?


I agree with the first quote completely and the first part of the second quote. The last part of the second quote, âIâm really sorry American leadership carelessly sacrificed your life for no good reason,â I certainly do not agree with as a response after learning that someone served in the military, unless you are someone that does not believe that we should even have a military, if you are someone like Cindy Sheehan or just completely lacking in the social graces. That response would still not be appropriate, but would at least then be explainable.

Funny thing about Cindy....

She has never protested against the present administration's deployment of the military and has taken the position that since she lost her son in a war she feels that she no longer should have to pay taxes. If everyone who lost someone while in the service were to do like she is doing things would become really interesting in this country.

TRellis


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> I am not a vet, but I am the daughter of a vet. (WW2, Korea and Nam)
> I do sincerely thank the vets I see, and living across the road from an AFB I have many opportunities to do so.
> 
> Usually I am able to offer a service with my thanks. Such as letting them go ahead of me in a long line. They are small services, but given with gratitude in the attitude makes it worthwhile.


I'm sure it is appreciated, too.
I'm married to a Nam vet & he's very appreciative anytime someone thanks him. Better than the insults & spitting from airports long ago.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

All the above is true- it is shallow, largely ignorant, sometimes inappropriate, and irritating. But still better than the actual hatred spewed by some of the public after the Viet Nam war.


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## HoofPick (Jan 16, 2012)

My husband is currently serving and hates it when people say that.


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## Mike CHS (Apr 3, 2011)

I was career military and think I can easily find things more worthy of worrying about.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Funny thing is though, even though I volunteered to serve, it was not something that I did so that people would have to thank me nor have I developed a "you owe me" type of thinking. It was not really a question of "Oh, I'll do this and be a much better person than anyone else." it was more of "it is the right thing to serve my country". While I continually thank and support our Military Personnel, I don't really like being thanked for my service because I think that is was just a necessary thing to do...


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

I routinely thank vets for their service and have obviously cheered quite a few people. Occasionally it has gotten me into a much longer conversation than I wanted because it started a nice convo where we compared stories and experiences. I've met vets that served on battleships in WW2 and troops sitting in the airport coming home from the mid east. Every one of them had a story I enjoyed hearing. 

There may be a few vets annoyed by a sincere thank you but some people will be annoyed if you ignore them and some will be ignored by a pleasant, "have a nice day." So I'm not going to let the fussbudgets dictate my behavior and speech. 

Just so that I don't come across trying to be like Brian Williams, I am honorably discharged but never saw active duty so I don't claim to be a vet. I did however make a career out of providing services to the military around the world. At one point, I worked in a company where I was one of only two non- vets. We hired scores of vets, usually doing their former military job for more pay.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I am a vet and would rather people treat me the same as any other person they meet.
I do expect the govt. and the people of the U.S. to keep the promises they made to me when I joined. I would have joined up without the promises but I made one promise and kept that one. I served my country in any way I was asked.
I expect the govt. and the people to do the same.
The govt. and the people have decided not to keep their promises. I can accept that also especially since I have no choice.
The thanks sound sort of hollow when you are one of the vets the govt. and the people lied to. I see it more as an insult. Instead of keeping their promise they decided that saying thanks and walking off was a better choice for them. As far as I am concerned they do not have to say anything. Their actions speak much louder than their words.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

pancho said:


> I am a vet and would rather people treat me the same as any other person they meet.
> I do expect the govt. and the people of the U.S. to keep the promises they made to me when I joined. I would have joined up without the promises but I made one promise and kept that one. I served my country in any way I was asked.
> I expect the govt. and the people to do the same.
> The govt. and the people have decided not to keep their promises. I can accept that also especially since I have no choice.
> The thanks sound sort of hollow when you are one of the vets the govt. and the people lied to. I see it more as an insult. Instead of keeping their promise they decided that saying thanks and walking off was a better choice for them. As far as I am concerned they do not have to say anything. Their actions speak much louder than their words.


Wow, what convoluted thinking. You equate the guy who says thank you with the entire gov't. In your thinking, the gov't lied so the guy saying thank you lied. Have you considered that one of the reasons the guy is thanking you is because he agrees many vets didn't get the thanks and support they earned? 

It's no wonder I find most of your posts so wrong headed.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

BlackFeather said:


> So how do you feel, especially about our recent wars? Are you a veteran, or someone in your family? Is this just a few or is it many?


Not a vet, but son, nephew, brother to vets.
Wars since WW2 have been a waste of lives.
I am glad that many are willing to serve, I just wish our 'leaders' would get their act together.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

My husband is a retired AF officer, he is thanked by people sometimes and he is gracious and tells them "it was my honor to serve, no need to thank me". 

My dad was a veteran of Vietnam..no one ever thanked him for his 3 tours nor for his Korean service. 

Shameful the way those vets were treated by many on their return from war.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I have always found it a poor use of language. If you dissect what it says and how it is commonly used it often is actively offensive.

I think that one of the worst examples I've seen is when it has been used in the "American Pickers" show, where they bring it out like some wrapped up Christmas present for the recipient, while at the same time trying to negotiate the lowest possible prices for what could be valuable items. In such use, I get the feeling of being around a greasy-haired car salesman who slathers butter and perfumed hair creme on customers in hopes of taking advantage in a sale.

Because the phrase is automatic and non-specific, it does not reflect any thought or authenticity, other than a general indication of approval - even if the mores and morality of the servicemember are entirely different that those of the person pronouncing the rote blessing. It is not communication. As it is used it is a social kow-tow, just as much as a required bow to a king. That type of ritual is antithetical to the whole concept of America as a land of equals.

Attempts to make it more meaningful get to be transparent and awkward. The staring into eyes, firm grip of the hand, and ritual words are more like some cross between a Masonic handshake and supplication to a Bishop than any real understanding of the recipient. I shudder as I have visions of schoolchildren lined up and one by one reciting it as a soldier passes by, and a teacher smiling that all the little kids are SO well-behaved and appreciative, when they are just learning how to be more compliant social non-thinkers.

Another irritant is that once a person is in the service, that person does not have control over their life the way that a civilian does. Thanking some one for their service is thanking them for willingly going into a contract where they are not allowed to think for themselves and have little control over the success or failure of what their work entailed. Do we thank assembly line workers for making Ford trucks, using a ritual "Thank you for making Fords?" Do we thank GM workers with a similar phrase, even when they installed faulty ignition switches?

Another issue is that by thanking for service, one implicitly gives blanket approval to all use of military force, whether appropriate or not. When you thank a servicemember without qualification, you also thank Obama, and Bush before him. They are/were commander-in-chief. If you don't think that you are thanking the commander-in-chief and disagree with policies set, then your thanks to an individual service member smacks of pity. "You poor sod, I know you served with the best intentions." 

Genuine appreciation of people comes from recognizing them as individuals with quirks and foibles, not as soldiers, members of some group, or having gone through rough times. Really recognizing and appreciating individuals and getting beyond figural demons or heroes (yours, theirs, and society's) is hard and takes work. 

If there is a phrase that could supplant the one in use, it might be more along the lines of "I appreciate your willingness to have subjected a chunk of your life to the absolute will of our leaders in hopes of doing something of benefit for all of us." That phrase assumes and reinforces positive motives while being factual to the reality. However, it is long, takes some thinking time, and is not the Kool-aid sugar rush that is required of a quick social kiss. I've just resigned myself to hearing people recite "thank-you for your service" and recognizing that they are doing the best they can with a small palate.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

This just really bothers me. I read it a few days back and was shocked. I realize that the soldiers that are coming home now from the current wars have never lived through or lost a parent in Vietnam or Korea but those boys back then lived through being called names, spit at, unappreciated and very rarely thanked for their service. I am the daughter of a Vietnam Vet KIA in 1968 and I pray we don't throw ourselves back to that time when people don't realize the sacrifice you have made to protect and serve your country and each of us. I think it is amazing and exciting that complete strangers will walk up to a service member in the airport and reach out their hand in gratitude. It is the way it should be.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

True to my lifelong ability to outsmart myself, I joined the Army in '63 with every intention of going to Germany -drinking beer and chasing frauleins. If you'd have looked in most high school geography books back then you'd have found French Indochina, not Viet Nam. Who knew?

I'm a truly accidental Viet Nam vet, and the only person who appreciated my service back then was the guy who married my girlfriend while I was deployed.

I'm sort of embarrassed when someone thanks me.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

where I want to said:


> All the above is true- it is shallow, largely ignorant, sometimes inappropriate, and irritating. But still better than the actual hatred spewed by some of the public after the Viet Nam war.


I guess I am shallow and ignorant because I don't get this comment at all. How does teaching our children and grandchildren to appreciate the sacrifice that those that choose to serve and protect deserve our appreciation? They may not understand why or what but they do understand that this person they are thanking in uniform made the choice to serve their country, our country to protect me and my rights as well as other Americans. 

I understand that sometimes those that serve do not want or expect this from us civilians but they deserve thanks and more. Unless we serve we can not understand fully what they are thinking but we need to know that they do not have to make the choice to serve and protect our country and yet they do so. A thank you is the very least we should do.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

grandma12703 said:


> A thank you is the very least we should do.


Please know this is not in any way about you. I am only using the last sentence. Thank you for saying what you said.

The last sentence is very true. Most people in the U.S. and the govt.do exactly what the sentence says. Just changing one word. Should can be changed to Have To. They are looking for the very least they have to do. Thank you is pretty cheap. They do not intend on doing anymore than that.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

pancho said:


> Thank you is pretty cheap. They do not intend on doing anymore than that.


All this whining because someone said, Thank you. Very bizarre. 

And how is it you know so much of what is in a person's heart and head from 5 words, "Thank you for your service"? In truth, you have no idea. I thank people for their service and give them good paying jobs. So you are wrong at least as it applies to me.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> All this whining because someone said, Thank you. Very bizarre.
> 
> And how is it you know so much of what is in a person's heart and head from 5 words, "Thank you for your service"? In truth, you have no idea. I thank people for their service and give them good paying jobs. So you are wrong at least as it applies to me.


The term whining is wrong. Bitterness maybe.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

where I want to said:


> The term whining is wrong. Bitterness maybe.


Bitterness is right.
I stand behind any promises I give to another person. I was young when I volunteered and thought a country would do the same. Later I found out there are just too many people like the person you answered.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I was taught by a Marine to thank everyone for everything, to polish my shoes and to say "Yes Ma'am."

When I thank a vet, the usual reply is a thank you in return.

When I say it, I mean it. Always error on the side of gratitude.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

grandma12703 said:


> I guess I am shallow and ignorant because I don't get this comment at all. How does teaching our children and grandchildren to appreciate the sacrifice that those that choose to serve and protect deserve our appreciation? They may not understand why or what but they do understand that this person they are thanking in uniform made the choice to serve their country, our country to protect me and my rights as well as other Americans.
> 
> I understand that sometimes those that serve do not want or expect this from us civilians but they deserve thanks and more. Unless we serve we can not understand fully what they are thinking but we need to know that they do not have to make the choice to serve and protect our country and yet they do so. A thank you is the very least we should do.


I wasn't going to respond because the idea is well meaning and relatively harmless. A fad. But here I go anyway.
For one thing, the military can be a career. Something someone suited to it actually enjoys. They do not see it as a sacrifice at all. Just a job with rewards and difficulties. Patriotic maybe but professional first.
For another, you don't know that the person you are thanking isn't a scumbag, criminal or ripping off the government and you at an alarming rate. So the people you thank know that you are doing it for your own satisfaction and, while they think it's better than getting yelled at, know it is not from understanding of what they actually do. I don't know if this is true as the 'thanking' thing is fairly new, but I bet there are directives on the correct response from service men upon such contact with civilians and it doesn't include saying what they think. Good PR. But a bit of a burden.

I am sorry that my off hand remark was offensive. Nothing you were doing was offensive. And I could have used a guiding directive myself before shooting off that post.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

It doesn't happen to me much because it doesn't come up much in normal conversation that I served. I mention it here much more than in real life, because we talk about war and stuff like that more. I think I've been thanked for my service here. I appreciated it, but it wasn't necessary. Also a much bigger percentage of people in my generation served in the military than do now, so it's just kind of something that we did. I didn't do it out of some super-patriotic duty. It was an adventurous job that turned into a career. I loved it. I served through some major conflicts but I was never in combat. I spent the vast majority of my career in the Caribbean...can't really say that was a sacrifice...I was in paradise!

I can see how it can be a little annoying to be thanked over and over. Several of my young family and friends who have served during the last 15 years have told me they don't travel in uniform because it's exhausting to walk through an airport and be stopped by 50 different people saying thanks and they feel like there's kind of an expectation to respond in some way that makes it a special experience for the person saying it. They appreciate the sentiment (and the first class upgrades) and I'm sure they always reacted graciously every time, but they say they just want to blend in with the crowd.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

jtbrandt said:


> It doesn't happen to me much because it doesn't come up much in normal conversation that I served. I mention it here much more than in real life, because we talk about war and stuff like that more. I think I've been thanked for my service here. I appreciated it, but it wasn't necessary. Also a much bigger percentage of people in my generation served in the military than do now, so it's just kind of something that we did. I didn't do it out of some super-patriotic duty. It was an adventurous job that turned into a career. I loved it. I served through some major conflicts but I was never in combat. I spent the vast majority of my career in the Caribbean...can't really say that was a sacrifice...I was in paradise!
> 
> I can see how it can be a little annoying to be thanked over and over. Several of my young family and friends who have served during the last 15 years have told me they don't travel in uniform because it's exhausting to walk through an airport and be stopped by 50 different people saying thanks and they feel like there's kind of an expectation to respond in some way that makes it a special experience for the person saying it. They appreciate the sentiment (and the first class upgrades) and I'm sure they always reacted graciously every time, but they say they just want to blend in with the crowd.


understood but when someone is walking around with a hat on his head that says something like Vietnam Veteran, they probably are proud of their service and want some sort of recognition. 

My like long best bud/adopted brother was Green Beret. No one knows he was military and he is about as far from appearing to be a tough guy as Don Knots. He's proud of his service but finds no need for anyone outside of close friends to know his past.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

where I want to said:


> For another, you don't know that the person you are thanking isn't a scumbag, criminal or ripping off the government and you at an alarming rate.


You may be right. We have certainly seen a few folks lately trying to rob glory and fame from the backs of real soldiers. But it is a chance I'm willing to take. I'm willing to risk a perfectly good thank you on someone who is undeserving in the hopes it actually goes to someone who might have their day made by a few minutes of nice convo.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm not against it. I just don't do it myself. I'll sometimes strike up a conversation if they're sitting nearby alone looking bored or something, and I usually thank them at the end of the conversation, but I don't approach people unless they're wearing something with the name of a unit or ship I know or something like that. Those kind of conversations can be a lot of fun reminiscing about those days.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> You may be right. We have certainly seen a few folks lately trying to rob glory and fame from the backs of real soldiers. But it is a chance I'm willing to take. I'm willing to risk a perfectly good thank you on someone who is undeserving in the hopes it actually goes to someone who might have their day made by a few minutes of nice convo.


But the rest of the sentence?


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

where I want to said:


> But the rest of the sentence?


I responded to a complete sentence so I don't understand. 

As the to rest of that parag, you stated an opinion of what other people may be thinking. You might be right sometimes, you might be wrong sometimes. I can't read people's minds.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I'm involved with the local veterans group and those are the only folks aware that I'm a vet. I learned early on no one cares. Not out of spite, most people are just too busy with life. In fact it was 10+ years when anyone at work even knew I was a vet. The vets coming home I usually just say I'm glad you made it back. Sadly we can't say that to all of them.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

This whole thread blows my mind and makes me sad. We don't encounter uniformed military very often (or people who are vets and let you know, like the 90-something WWII vet hubby helped at Lowe's the other day when the guys in lawn and garden were standing there with thumbs up rectums) but when we do, if the opportunity strikes, we always try to do something. Say thank you, pay for their meal, let them go in front of us in line, whatever we can. Even if it's small. 

Now I don't know what to think. Seems the majority of the opinion here is that thanks, given sincerely, isn't wanted. I just&#8230; wow. Sad thread.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

bowdonkey said:


> I'm involved with the local veterans group and those are the only folks aware that I'm a vet. I learned early on no one cares. Not out of spite, most people are just too busy with life. In fact it was 10+ years when anyone at work even knew I was a vet. The vets coming home I usually just say I'm glad you made it back. Sadly we can't say that to all of them.


I care. Lots of us care. And some of us try to demonstrate we care and do what ever small things we can do to make a difference in the lives of a few good folks.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

happycat47111 said:


> This whole thread blows my mind and makes me sad. We don't encounter uniformed military very often (or people who are vets and let you know, like the 90-something WWII vet hubby helped at Lowe's the other day when the guys in lawn and garden were standing there with thumbs up rectums) but when we do, if the opportunity strikes, we always try to do something. Say thank you, pay for their meal, let them go in front of us in line, whatever we can. Even if it's small.
> 
> Now I don't know what to think. Seems the majority of the opinion here is that thanks, given sincerely, isn't wanted. I justâ¦ wow. Sad thread.


It isn't that it isn't wanted. It is hard to explain but I will give it a try.
Say you are working for a company. The president of the company , your boss, and the human serviced dept come to you and offer you a job. They explain the benefits package to you and you agree to it. 
What would you think of a company that didn't give you any of the benefits they promised you they would? How about the company made it impossible to quit the job? What if they forced you to work at that job for years anyway. How about when you finally were allowed to leave the job the benefits you were promised you were with held.
Would you appreciate if the other employees who voted to not allow you the promises decided a thank you every once in a while was enough?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

It always make me mad at the person that comes up and thanks me for my service even though I was retired. If you want to thank someone go to any vertains cemitary and thank them.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

pancho said:


> It isn't that it isn't wanted. It is hard to explain but I will give it a try.
> Say you are working for a company. The president of the company , your boss, and the human serviced dept come to you and offer you a job. They explain the benefits package to you and you agree to it.
> What would you think of a company that didn't give you any of the benefits they promised you they would? How about the company made it impossible to quit the job? What if they forced you to work at that job for years anyway. How about when you finally were allowed to leave the job the benefits you were promised you were with held.
> Would you appreciate if the other employees who voted to not allow you the promises decided a thank you every once in a while was enough?


And why do you assume that the person offering thanks is one who voted to revoke the promises? That is a logical fallacy. It is the same type of reasoning that racists use, going from a specific occurrence and generalizing about the whole relevant population.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

On the news right now they are talking about all of the claims from veterans that have been ignored. One man did get a letter 10 years after he sent in the claim, seven years after he died.
All of these claims were not even counted in the back load. VA would not answer questions.
Files were concealed and others just not counted.
Thousands upon thousands of letters.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

happycat47111 said:


> This whole thread blows my mind and makes me sad. We don't encounter uniformed military very often (or people who are vets and let you know, like the 90-something WWII vet hubby helped at Lowe's the other day when the guys in lawn and garden were standing there with thumbs up rectums) but when we do, if the opportunity strikes, we always try to do something. Say thank you, pay for their meal, let them go in front of us in line, whatever we can. Even if it's small.
> 
> Now I don't know what to think. Seems the majority of the opinion here is that thanks, given sincerely, isn't wanted. I justâ¦ wow. Sad thread.


It seems that the first consideration is what the veteran wants. Maybe they want to be left alone or they are ambivalent about their military time or maybe people are reminding them of something they rather not think about right then or maybe they don't think they have earned thanks. Maybe they do want to shake hands with a total stranger. Maybe they rather not. I just question who is seeking satisfaction for whom in the automated words. 
You have to realize that no one in uniform is free to say what they want to people who are not friends. Rules govern their conduct. Their superiors would not like to hear of them saying anything unbecoming. So they don't have the defense of telling people to leave them alone no matter how they feel about it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> It isn't that it isn't wanted. It is hard to explain but I will give it a try.
> Say you are working for a company. The president of the company , your boss, and the human serviced dept come to you and offer you a job. They explain the benefits package to you and you agree to it.
> What would you think of a company that didn't give you any of the benefits they promised you they would? How about the company made it impossible to quit the job? What if they forced you to work at that job for years anyway. How about when you finally were allowed to leave the job the benefits you were promised you were with held.
> Would you appreciate if the other employees who voted to not allow you the promises decided a thank you every once in a while was enough?


You have been complaining loudly and bitterly on any thread you can do so. 

So what were you promised, and what was not given to you? I want to see where the population and not just some government people kept it from you, or if you are just seeing things thru bitter eyes.

And I also want to see if you did your paperwork part, etc to get what you think they promised and did not give.

Thanks, and I hope you can do it in a civil manner.

Angie


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> You have been complaining loudly and bitterly on any thread you can do so.
> 
> So what were you promised, and what was not given to you? I want to see where the population and not just some government people kept it from you, or if you are just seeing things thru bitter eyes.
> 
> ...


You sure want a lot of things.
Just on the news a few minutes ago, I posted on another thread, the VA would not talk to anyone after it was found out that thousands of benefit claims were ignored and not even counted in the back log. One veteran got a letter recently from the VA. It was in answer to his request for benefits he requested 10 years ago. He dies 7 years ago. Another was owed over $40,000.
VA would not even talk to anyone asking questions.

I only want what I was promised. I am sure you could search and find out what the new all volunteer army was promised when they ended the draft. 
I am afraid if I tried to explain I would only sound like I was complaining loudly and bitterly.
Why not do a search? You would not believe me anyway.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho, you have no idea if I'd believe you or not. But that is a way to keep from backing up what has happened to YOU. 

Now, I've just spent the last week going every day to the VA local med center with my Dad being ill, and them taking good care of him. 

So, what are YOU not getting that YOU were promised?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> pancho, you have no idea if I'd believe you or not. But that is a way to keep from backing up what has happened to YOU.
> 
> Now, I've just spent the last week going every day to the VA local med center with my Dad being ill, and them taking good care of him.
> 
> So, what are YOU not getting that YOU were promised?


Medical treatment.
There are some good VA hospitals, the one in Biloxi is great. 
Too bad the bad ones out number the good ones.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And in your reply above, you did not indicate how the rest of the people were responsible for that in the VA. 

So don't blame us for a VA problem in paperwork, it's getting tiresome.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> And in your reply above, you did not indicate how the rest of the people were responsible for that in the VA.
> 
> So don't blame us for a VA problem in paperwork, it's getting tiresome.


Where did you get an idea that my problem was paperwork?
The rest of the people are responsible as they voted in the politicians who have decided not to keep their promise.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> Medical treatment.


Did you do all your paperwork correctly? And did you try much or a bit?

The reason I ask, is Dad had cataracts replaced, both eyes, both knees replaced, and this last week just a bad cold that got meds, that threw the blood thinner meds dangerously off, and then they got the cold taken care of and the blood thinner meds are okay as of today.

And did you try a big enough medical place.


And how did this medical treatment you did not get, be the fault of anyone here or elsewhere? We did not deny that to you. So, don't blame us.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> Where did you get an idea that my problem was paperwork?


You were the one that mentioned the fellow that put in and did not get reply for 10 years due to paperwork.

So, that was someone else, and I asked as it may have been your circumstances also.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> Medical treatment.
> There are some good VA hospitals, the one in Biloxi is great.
> Too bad the bad ones out number the good ones.


Yes, there are good and bad every things here and there.

And some are really good Amarillo TX has a good one, too. They treated Dad well.


But that still is not reason to bite at the general population.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Did you do all your paperwork correctly? And did you try much or a bit?
> 
> The reason I ask, is Dad had cataracts replaced, both eyes, both knees replaced, and this last week just a bad cold that got meds, that threw the blood thinner meds dangerously off, and then they got the cold taken care of and the blood thinner meds are okay as of today.
> 
> ...


I will give you an example of what is happening here at the VA hospital.
One WWII veteran was sent home from the hospital and told they would not be treating him anymore at the VA. He, just like I did, had filled out every piece of paperwork they wanted him to. His family got involved but were told the same thing. They notified a local news station. They ran his story on the local news. The VA notified the news station that he would now be treated at the VA as they had come up with some new info. They just found out the man was blind. They had been treating him for some time but failed to notice he was blind.

Yes, I have filled out everything they wanted. The VA told me to blame the politicians as they are the ones who decided not to give treatment to vets.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> You were the one that mentioned the fellow that put in and did not get reply for 10 years due to paperwork.
> 
> So, that was someone else, and I asked as it may have been your circumstances also.


That was just on the news a few minutes ago. I mentioned it because some people were saying what a good job the VA did. If you will re read my post I said the man filled out the paperwork. The VA ignored the paperwork along with thousands of other veterans paperwork.
what do you think a veteran can do after the VA just don't read or care about the paperwork?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> it's getting tiresome.


That is the same feeling the rest of the U.S. feels about the veterans.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay, then we know what upset you. Did you write your congress person for help overriding it? 

And still that is NO reason to spew your bitterness at the rest of the population. At the DC crowd yes, I can see the reason to be upset by that. But not the rest of the population, so I am expecting not to see that bitterness spewed at regular people any more here.

And if someone wants to thank you, ignore it or say 'no problem'.

But remember this, you signed up for the job and got hurt on the job apparently. And businesses change from the time you start to when you quit or are fired. No one made you sign on for the benefits, it was not a draft.

It is a shame that the contract you signed got changed. It happens. 
And I'm really sorry it effected you medically, and I'd hope that maybe if you contact a congress person or even a tv station, you may get the medical attention you need.

But that still is not any regular population person's fault.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> That was just on the news a few minutes ago. I mentioned it because some people were saying what a good job the VA did. If you will re read my post I said the man filled out the paperwork. The VA ignored the paperwork along with thousands of other veterans paperwork.
> what do you think a veteran can do after the VA just don't read or care about the paperwork?


Try again, make phone calls. I've dealt with paperwork for years, and some does get stuck in wrong folders and such.
You needed an advocate to help you apparently.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> That is the same feeling the rest of the U.S. feels about the veterans.


You are so wrong on that it reflects badly on you.

I know of no one that is feeling veterans are tiresome. You seem to want to have a reason to rant and rave and blame others, the more the merrier.

Well, I can say on this one, you are wrong!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

I was honored to be able to serve. I chose it.

No need at all to thank me. 

I have been thanked a few times...I always just say that it was my pleasure and honor and I would do it again.

I think some folks feel good about thanking vets and I would hate to take that away from them. 


Tim


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Try again, make phone calls. I've dealt with paperwork for years, and some does get stuck in wrong folders and such.
> You needed an advocate to help you apparently.


Please at least read about this latest findings. You don't loose thousands of letters and paperwork of thousands of veterans.
Don't forget the VA even refused to answer the questions the news media asked them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> You are so wrong on that it reflects badly on you.
> 
> I know of no one that is feeling veterans are tiresome. You seem to want to have a reason to rant and rave and blame others, the more the merrier.
> 
> Well, I can say on this one, you are wrong!


Do you think it might be due to being spit on for doing my job?
Do you think my actions may be because of refusal for treatment.
Ever hears of PTSD? I am sure you have never heard of the VA failure to treat it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Notice you have already started erasing me. Thanks, just like I was expecting. Still does not change the facts. Please do a little research instead of just blaming the vet.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Yes, I've heard of it. And I've heard of not enough being done for it.

But, just because I vote for a person, and they get in office and whatever bill had the underfunding for your particular problem in it, in no way makes me responsible for your problems, or any other person here on the forum.

Using that Logic, I want my taxes lowered, and Obama care to stop being an illegal tax, can I blame you? You voted didn't you? You must be responsible for those things.

Same difference.

And have you tried recently for help? Now that there has been more news on this problem, maybe you could be helped now and paper work done better now.

And governors are good, did you call DC?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And I've heard about Vietnam vets getting a bad reception when they came home. I never saw one coming home, but it was not good.

I think part of it was that it was a "Police Action" and not a 'war'. So the country was not mentally engaged in defeating something. And it's looks as if it was a living hell over there, and I'm sorry for all that endured that.

But, just cause we vote for someone, does not mean they do exactly as we would wish. And whomever told you that, was using a cop out so you would not get your frustrations and anger out on them. I'm pretty sure from your description they received a lot of that. And they can not do a darn thing about it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Yes, I've heard of it. And I've heard of not enough being done for it.
> 
> But, just because I vote for a person, and they get in office and whatever bill had the underfunding for your particular problem in it, in no way makes me responsible for your problems, or any other person here on the forum.
> 
> ...


No Angie. I refuse to vote. When the best the U.S. has to offer is what we got now and have had for many years I will not vote.
Some people think they have to vote. Voting for the least evil seems to be more than just a saying.

It seems like you read through my posts but missed everything except for the things you wanted to see. Is last week recent enough?
I put this in another post but it isn't what you were looking for.
I called to cancel a doctors appointment as I could not afford what the VA charges. My appointment was for a week later. When I finally got to talk to a real person they said they already had the results of my doctors visit along with the notes from my doctor when I visited her. My appointment wasn't for another week. How could they have the results and the notes from the doctor when I hadn't even gone to the hospital?
They read me the notes from the doctor. Said I seemed disillusioned about the help they gave me. Remember that was before the visit. Wonder how that happened?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> And I've heard about Vietnam vets getting a bad reception when they came home. I never saw one coming home, but it was not good.
> 
> I think part of it was that it was a "Police Action" and not a 'war'. So the country was not mentally engaged in defeating something. And it's looks as if it was a living hell over there, and I'm sorry for all that endured that.
> 
> But, just cause we vote for someone, does not mean they do exactly as we would wish. And whomever told you that, was using a cop out so you would not get your frustrations and anger out on them. I'm pretty sure from your description they received a lot of that. And they can not do a darn thing about it.


So does it being a "Police Action" make it alright to spit on those who were told to go?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

No, it does not.

And I had a thought. Have you tried one of those 'Go Fund Me' sites and put the problem to the public to see if it could go viral and get you enough to do the medical stuff you need. 

It seems to work for various things, and you seem to have a lot of passion for the injustice and can use words.

Why not allow the public that you said voted for the government or VA officials that did you wrong, help you out?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> No, it does not.
> 
> And I had a thought. Have you tried one of those 'Go Fund Me' sites and put the problem to the public to see if it could go viral and get you enough to do the medical stuff you need.
> 
> ...


Angie, that seems like a way of putting it on the shoulders of others.
All I want and all most veterans want is what we were promised. 
Besides the time I spent in the military I donated a year of my life working in a VA hospital with the homeless veterans. 
There was a plaque with my name on it in the Homeless Veterans Dormitory in Biloxi naming me as veteran of the year for the work I did helping homeless veterans.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

One more thing Angie. I was good enough at my job t the VA hospital that they put me on salary. I got $.25 an hour. That is right a quarter an hour. By the time I left I had worked all the way up to $1.00 an hour.
How many people you know would work for that? The pay was so I could continue taking veterans back and forth to New Orleans to take tests for off shore work in my own car.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Well, it seems to me that the passion you have would be better directed in getting what you want than insulting all the members of the forum with your anger at everyone.

Don't you think? 

And 'what the VA charges". What kind of charges, like a co pay? You really don't need to be specific. Dad must have his paperwork showing his medical insurance since he's about to be 84. But the VA has been treating him for at least about 20 years or so.

It's really great that you helped the homeless vets. That's another big shame, unless the Vet feels more comfortable out in the open and not closed in. But it's nice it was recognized for your efforts too.

Is it just that you are at your wits end on getting this problem handled so you can have a decent quality of life?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> One more thing Angie. I was good enough at my job t the VA hospital that they put me on salary. I got $.25 an hour. That is right a quarter an hour. By the time I left I had worked all the way up to $1.00 an hour.
> How many people you know would work for that? The pay was so I could continue taking veterans back and forth to New Orleans to take tests for off shore work in my own car.



What year was that .25 a hour? And would more have impacted you getting what benefits you may have been getting?

And who twisted your arm to work for .25 an hour?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Well, it seems to me that the passion you have would be better directed in getting what you want than insulting all the members of the forum with your anger at everyone.
> 
> Don't you think?
> 
> ...


Angie, I think my problem is I cannot stand aside and let anyone be treated like I see the veterans treated.
I have to pay for everything I get from the VA. My doctors visit and my medicine. It is a little cheaper than a real doctor. The doctors at the VA cannot do much for a person. Most of the time they want to send you to a specialist. They charge quite a bit more for a specialist.
I have ringing in my ears so loud that sometimes I can't hear anything else. It is like a locust inside of both ears. All they have done for over 3 years is look in my ears with that little light. After about 3 seconds they say they can't see anything. I have been trying to tell them it is inside. It gets much louder when I lay down.
I can live with my problems but I refuse to set there and let people treat the veterans like I have seen them treated.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> What year was that .25 a hour? And would more have impacted you getting what benefits you may have been getting?
> 
> And who twisted your arm to work for .25 an hour?


They didn't twist my are. I volunteered to work for nothing. When they found out I was using my own cat to take veterans from Biloxi to New Orleans they decided to give me the quarter an hour pay.
That was in 1989. I wasn't being treated for anything at that time. There wasn't any benefits to be impacted.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Other than ranting here, what are you doing to accomplish your stated goal?

And that ringing must be horrible to have to live with. Still, think on the "Go fund me", sounds as if you might get enough to get help with that, then you'd be more able to help with your stated mission.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Sounds as if they were guessing the milage that would go in an expense report for your car.

I think these days expense reports are about .52 a mile on the allowed DOD expenses.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Other than ranting here, what are you doing to accomplish your stated goal?
> 
> And that ringing must be horrible to have to live with. Still, think on the "Go fund me", sounds as if you might get enough to get help with that, then you'd be more able to help with your stated mission.


I am on the phone all day many days. I call everyone who will talk to me.
When I do get to talk to a person they will say that isn't their job and transfer me to another person. I will be transferred to the exact same person who transferred me to them in the first place. They will have forgotten everything I said so I will have to start all over. Will be transferred back and forth until one just hangs up the phone.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Sounds as if they were guessing the milage that would go in an expense report for your car.
> 
> I think these days expense reports are about .52 a mile on the allowed DOD expenses.


Biloxi to New Orleans where they went to take the tests was about 80 miles one way. I was only paid for 4 hours a day. That would be $1.00 for a 160 mile round trip.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> I am on the phone all day many days. I call everyone who will talk to me.
> When I do get to talk to a person they will say that isn't their job and transfer me to another person. I will be transferred to the exact same person who transferred me to them in the first place. They will have forgotten everything I said so I will have to start all over. Will be transferred back and forth until one just hangs up the phone.


That is totally infuriating and would try the patience of a saint. 

Have you found the name of the people higher than that, and tried to contact them? And are you just calling the VA? What bout calling and emailing and mailing everyone on the subcommittee's that effect the VA? 

Do you know of any Vets in the news departments where you work, have you called them? 
Just trying to think of ways for you to get to talk to the Yes person and not all the NO persons below him/her.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> That is totally infuriating and would try the patience of a saint.
> 
> Have you found the name of the people higher than that, and tried to contact them? And are you just calling the VA? What bout calling and emailing and mailing everyone on the subcommittee's that effect the VA?
> 
> ...


I went above the VA quite a while back. I have had conversations with the Attorney General and the Governor. Now I have worked my way through everyone at the state level. All I am told is if the people keep electing people who want to get rid of the benefits for the veterans there isn't anything that they can do.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Angie, just go ahead and bar me. I know it is coming. I expected that from your first post on this subject. Like I said before it won't change the facts any.
I can see that it bothers people when they are shown what they have done, are doing, and will continue doing to the veterans. I can understand why they want us to shut up.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

My MD is a Vietnam vet. We have had many discussions about the war he was in, how it affects him today as a doctor, an many other tangibly related topics. I get my money's worth on my office visits. On my most recent visit, I was *way* early and stopped into a coffee shop for a cup of coffee before my regular monthly visit. At the door of the coffee shop, I encountered a VEEEERRRYYY old man wearing a US Navy Veteran hat. I knew he had to be WWII, so I had to stop and ask him about his service--trying to flatter him by asking if he served in Korea. He started out what turned out to be a very pleasant discussion of south east Asia, with the terse comment, "ahhhh. I forgot I was wearing this ---- hat." That comment stuck with me. He was a bright-eyed 96 year old. Quite a treasure of a morning to have met him.

When I got to my DR appointment, I retold the episode, curious of his reaction. He said that WWII vets carry a guilt complex about surviving the war and absolutely do not like to be reminded that they survived. He said as a Vietnam vet, he sometimes craves recognition for his service after being treated like dirt as a young man. We speculated a bit about the guys and gals coming home from the desert.

I think the current crop of desert war vets are, sadly, dazed and confused about what they went through. Like the Vietnam vets, they are dissolutioned about why they served, but unlike the Vietnam vets, they don't want the recognition. I actually had one tell me "thanks for not serving" once. Interesting emotions, indeed.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I honestly do not hear of people wanting to get rid of benefits for veterans.

I do hear of people wanting to get rid of benefits for welfare people that can and will not work. 

Unfortunately some of the news pundits put the two groups together.


If we go that way, I have to believe that no one wants retiring persons to get the SS $ they put in cause they are calling that an entitlement also.

But just as you put in the time and work, the olders put in the SS money and should get it back just as you should have medical and they should not lump the VA benefits, especially health with the 'welfare'. And there is someone, somewhere in the government that made that up, and is pushing it and you're getting that, and soon I'll get the SS problems.

So, I guess for both issues, talking intelligently and stating the problems in a manner others will listen to and not get their backs up before they hear what you are saying. It's all in delivery.

And since you've gone thru the state, when do you start on the nationals?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pancho said:


> Angie, just go ahead and bar me. I know it is coming. I expected that from your first post on this subject. Like I said before it won't change the facts any.
> I can see that it bothers people when they are shown what they have done, are doing, and will continue doing to the veterans. I can understand why they want us to shut up.


I don't intend to bar you, not for this. We were just getting a good conversation going. Are you going to stop before we can think of some other ways that may get to your stated goals?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Pancho. If you had the ability and contacts and financing, how would you fix things?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

pancho said:


> It isn't that it isn't wanted. It is hard to explain but I will give it a try.
> Say you are working for a company. The president of the company , your boss, and the human serviced dept come to you and offer you a job. They explain the benefits package to you and you agree to it.
> What would you think of a company that didn't give you any of the benefits they promised you they would? How about the company made it impossible to quit the job? What if they forced you to work at that job for years anyway. How about when you finally were allowed to leave the job the benefits you were promised you were with held.
> Would you appreciate if the other employees who voted to not allow you the promises decided a thank you every once in a while was enough?


Angie, if I may but in on your one-on-one with pancho, you seem to take his comment personally. If you want to, that is certainly your perogative but I suspect that the underlying frustration he expresses is not directed at you or forum members but more relating the idea that token reparations for wrongs are often to assuage the consciences of those who have not taken up a battle against injustice. The psych term is "displacement," and it can lead to bizarre behaviors. 

Obviously, the range of reasons people might say "Thank you for your service" is unlimited, and only a portion be displacing unease this way, while a majority have good will in their hearts. As I mentioned earlier, the phrase is not terribly good communication. As Deke pointed out - "And how is it you know so much of what is in a person's heart and head from 5 words, "Thank you for your service"? In truth, you have no idea. " When a phrase is so opaque and rote that you have to question the motive, it might not be the best phrase to latch on to. But then, I make no claim to being right, just to offering an opinion.

FWIW, the noise in pancho's ears _might_ be Meniere's disease, which is unfortunately not treatable by the VA docs or anyone else.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Pancho. If you had the ability and contacts and financing, how would you fix things?


That is very simple.
I would give the veterans every benefit they were promised.
That is all any veteran wants, just what we were promised.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

How would you implement the changes to make it happen?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> How would you implement the changes to make it happen?


That part is simple also.
Veterans could go to any VA hospital and get treatment for free, just like we were promised.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

You're going to have to do something with the paperwork, even if only a little bit of paperwork.


Pancho. I hope sooner than later, your wish would come true. It is a good wish and aim to have.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

pancho said:


> Do you think it might be due to being spit on for doing my job?
> Do you think my actions may be because of refusal for treatment.
> Ever hears of PTSD? I am sure you have never heard of the VA failure to treat it.



I can remember when my own family members were subjected to the same despicable treatment and I can't imagine anyone being treated that way. 

Your generation went through great difficulties upon your return and sadly, it was you and so many like you that paved the way for PTSD to be considered something very real and advancements in how it is treated. 

I realize that is small comfort for you but I do believe that so many fell through the cracks simply because nobody knew what to look for or how to treat PTSD.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Not as simple as calling your congressman or filling out more paperwork, and that's the point, veterans shouldn't have to.

Pancho, unfortunately the military-industrial complex doesn't exist to take care of veterans. It exists to make money for corporations. Have to have troops to get that done, just like the education industry needs students in order to make the big bucks, and leaves them with big debt.


I'm a former military officer, and my son was deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. It is annoying to hear the thanks. Like the vast majority of military members, I never saw combat, and generally worked regular hours for good pay and benefits. Why isn't that enough?

Seems we ought to thank other professions that take risks. Millions have been killed in construction, or logging, or mining, or fishing, or whatever. A good friend of mine was killed logging.

In addition, it's cheap to say thanks instead of putting your own rear on the line. And if we were truly threatened, we'd all be fighting, but instead it's easy to throw a few bucks at some kids, tell them they're heroes, throw a parade, thank them for their service, and then head to the mall.

I say mandatory combat for all, especially the congressmen and their families, then we don't have to thank each other.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

I don't know what other people were promised but all that was promised to me was "if I got hurt the VA would take care of me." That was in 1965 and went till I retired 21 years later. The VA has kept their promise to me. How many people have been treated in the VA that did not have service connected injuries? A lot. That is why they are charged. I on the other hand have never payed for anything at the VA since I am 100 percent service connected disabled.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

pancho said:


> I am a vet and would rather people treat me the same as any other person they meet.
> I do expect the govt. and the people of the U.S. to keep the promises they made to me when I joined. I would have joined up without the promises but I made one promise and kept that one. I served my country in any way I was asked.
> I expect the govt. and the people to do the same.
> The govt. and the people have decided not to keep their promises. I can accept that also especially since I have no choice.
> The thanks sound sort of hollow when you are one of the vets the govt. and the people lied to. I see it more as an insult. Instead of keeping their promise they decided that saying thanks and walking off was a better choice for them. As far as I am concerned they do not have to say anything. Their actions speak much louder than their words.


I also take it as an insult.They could just as well say to me"thanks sucker for protecting my freedom for me while I dodge serving myself."It just irritates the hell out of me.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

DJ, we think alot alike on this topic.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

wwubben said:


> I also take it as an insult.They could just as well say to me"thanks sucker for protecting my freedom for me while I dodge serving myself."It just irritates the hell out of me.


I did not serve in the military. That said, though I respect veterans and military service I really struggle to understand this attitude. If military service were a universal shared obligation, and some folks ducked out of it, that would annoy me. But we don't need everyone to serve - in fact we flat out couldn't afford to put everyone in uniform. What we need are maybe a million military, out of a population of 300 million. And you consider the rest of us as having dodged service, and you think we played you for a sucker, and you are angry at us as a result?

The way I think of it, people can contribute to the general welfare in lots of ways. We need some to become farmers and grow food - and I really hope farmers do not think I play them for suckers because I don't work hard bringing in a corn crop but still eat corn. Certainly not everyone should or could be a farmer. And the same applies for teachers, and utility linemen, and theater stagehands, and industrial safety managers, and of course soldiers too. And hopefully all these groups appreciate the contributions of others and can take pride in what they have done without feeling bitter that others are not contributing in the same way they are.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

wwubben said:


> I also take it as an insult.They could just as well say to me"thanks sucker for protecting my freedom for me while I dodge serving myself."It just irritates the hell out of me.


It really depends who it's coming from. But yes, some said in so many words "thanks sucker" or "you lost the war loser". I heard that from a few cowards the first couple years after I got out. I think it was a fad with some. It would never fly nowadays.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

My dad was promised free benefits as part of his "contract" with the government. Well that is great if you live within a certain radius of a military base that has a hospital or clinic. Before my dad died, there were benefit reductions. He felt that the government broke their word to him by reducing what they promised to take care of. 

I totally understand as my DH sees the same thing. He served in the military and is partially disabled as a result. Benefits he was promised have been cut. I reckon if I were a veteran myself, I would be pretty angry that the government promised free benefits for health, eye and dental care, prescriptions, etc. and those benefits are being reduced.

I do think that there is a HUGE disconnect between the civilian population and the military. I have tried to explain to people who have never been in the military what it is like, what families go through, what is required of children, and I get some of the blankest stares and then the most famous of all "well they knew what they were getting into when they signed up". 

Honestly I don't think the military does such a great job of telling people exactly what the reality is of joining the military. I doubt seriously if they tell the recruits that they will make lousy pay for working pretty much round the clock, could die, get shot at, lose their family, and their benefits will be eroded away by the time they retire. Oh there is a whole host of things that should be told, but if the military recruiters were to be totally honest, I doubt anyone would join up. 

There is such a disconnect between civilians and military it is like two different worlds. Seems that most civilians think military service is just a "job" like working in a factory. Most don't get that once you sign on the line, the government owns you..lock - stock and barrel until you get out. Some people like that and do well with it and come out of it whole and better people. Others come out very broken. But no "job" on the outside owns their workers in the same manner so really there is no comparison.

Sadly as less and less Americans join the military, the gulf between civilian and military is going to grow. Most kids think of military service as "where you go if you can't get a job nowhere else - even with a degree" and they seem to think that being in the military is like working at a 8-4 job anywhere else.

I think the US should have mandatory enlistment at 18 until age 21 and I think all kids that are able should be required to serve. Perhaps then, all Americans would have some idea what is required and the divide between the "outside" and the military would not be so great.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

bowdonkey said:


> It really depends who it's coming from. But yes, some said in so many words "thanks sucker" or "you lost the war loser". I heard that from a few cowards the first couple years after I got out. I think it was a fad with some. It would never fly nowadays.


I understand perfectly. So many people give their lives and careers, earnings potential and so much more (PSD etc) and those that stay home think saying thank-you could be even close to enough. A Vet should never ever have to fill out paperwork, fight for the treatment they deserve or chase down politicians to get things changed. The people who did not fight should be doing it for them. That is all the thank-you they really want.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Sidepasser, the mandatory enlistment idea is one of the things I like about Switzerland. It makes for a much saner foreign policy when politicians recognize they are committing their own families to the results of their insanities.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Old Vet said:


> I don't know what other people were promised but all that was promised to me was "if I got hurt the VA would take care of me." That was in 1965 and went till I retired 21 years later. The VA has kept their promise to me. How many people have been treated in the VA that did not have service connected injuries? A lot. That is why they are charged. I on the other hand have never payed for anything at the VA since I am 100 percent service connected disabled.


I was a member of the very first volunteer army. The U.S. still had people scattered around fighting police actions, the draft had ended, and they still needed people. There were three draftees in my company. All the rest had volunteered.
Being the very first of the Volar we were promised many things. I was just a dumb country kid and really expected they would keep their part of the bargain.
Guess that was the worst thing they did to me. I lost faith in my country.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

As a reformed Republican - now Libertarian, I used to favor compulsory service, but the history of the draft amongst most all gov'ts is that given the ability to use people against their will, those in power will do so. Hitler drafted all men, aged 16 to 60, even when he knew all was lost and he sent them into battle with no training. 

Given that much power, the leaders will shield their own friends and families even if there is a supposed public policy that all serve. Look at in England, even when royalty joins the military (which I am not knocking) they serve in less dangerous roles or for shorter periods because they are needed back in the home country for their royal duties. 

So no to universal service. We can't afford it, the gov't doesn't need that much man power, and we can't trust politicians with that many lives. 

However, if you ever get a chance to read Heinlien's _Starship Troopers_ which is a far better book than the movie, it paints a tale of military service being a requirement of citizenship. I still like that idea. Only those who made the sacrifice to serve get the vote, so the voting population is not the great unwashed masses, the low information voters, or people whose votes were bought with gov't largess. The voters are educated, motivated, and have demonstrated a willingness for sacrifice for the good of the country.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I would like to thank everyone for their kind treatment of me during one of my melt downs.
I apologize for what I have said and especially to anyone I have insulted or spoken badly of.
When one of these spells happens there isn't anything I can do except lock myself away from other people. The computer makes it easy for me to run my mouth without hurting anyone.
It is bad when a person has absolutely no control over what they do and what they say.
Again, I apologize and thank everyone for putting up with me.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I agree Harry, many countries require some period of mandatory service, some as little as 6 months and others as long as 3 years. 

Here's an article about the need for national service:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen...-national-service-volunteering_b_1720887.html

She has a good idea and one that might help with preparation of young students for their role in society (i.e. jobs/education, etc.). 

_As a university president, I can imagine many benefits to the individual and to society in creating a mandatory requirement for all of the over 8.5 million 18- and 19-year-olds to serve their country. The service is mandatory with several types of service available. The traditional military service would be available as well as community (non-military) service.

The key is that for two years every citizen gives their country their time and talent in service to their country. In return, a grateful nation would provide public funds (yes that would be tax dollars we all pay) to the national service that would train these high school graduates for their service assignment, feed, cloth and provide a minimal stipend during their assignment. The last stage of their assignment would provide transition guidance and financial support for life after national service. The post service support would be at the choosing of the individual who could use the funding that they have earned to help launch them into their adult life by going to college, seeking technical training, starting a small business etc.
_

She feels that the 2 years of service would allow these young students a chance to grow up, decide what they want to do, and get some guidance on how to achieve that.

Might not be the best idea in the world, but for many students today - it might be a great way to discover what they want to do while gaining skills to make it happen.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I haven't read all the replies, but as to the question, when someone says it to my husband he feels both grateful and uncomfortable at the same time.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

pancho said:


> I would like to thank everyone for their kind treatment of me during one of my melt downs.
> I apologize for what I have said and especially to anyone I have insulted or spoken badly of.
> When one of these spells happens there isn't anything I can do except lock myself away from other people. The computer makes it easy for me to run my mouth without hurting anyone.
> It is bad when a person has absolutely no control over what they do and what they say.
> Again, I apologize and thank everyone for putting up with me.


No need to apologize as far as I am concerned. You feel passionately on a subject and express that passion in what you say. I would a hundred times prefer that to someone who has no passion and never speaks or expresses and opinion, allowing others to usurp life. We all can sit back and look at what we have said and recognize that me might have said it better. That is just part of being human.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

pancho said:


> I was a member of the very first volunteer army. The U.S. still had people scattered around fighting police actions, the draft had ended, and they still needed people. There were three draftees in my company. All the rest had volunteered.
> Being the very first of the Volar we were promised many things. I was just a dumb country kid and really expected they would keep their part of the bargain.
> Guess that was the worst thing they did to me. I lost faith in my country.


So you want to get free heath care from the VA just because you served for 4 years? No bodily injury or the like? You can get the VA to take care if you if you meat income guidelines but you will have to pay them.Just like it was promised to you. I have been going to the VA for many years and have heard lots of stories about what the Government promised them but most of them are just stories. I was around before the volunteer Army was thought about and after it became the law and have reenlisted in the volunteer Army and the fact of the promise had never change but could be misunderstood. Even if you have PTSD you can have that thaken care of just by appealing for it. I have been contacted by the VA to get treatment for it.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

sidepasser said:


> I think the US should have mandatory enlistment at 18 until age 21 and I think all kids that are able should be required to serve. Perhaps then, all Americans would have some idea what is required and the divide between the "outside" and the military would not be so great.


I see the idea of mandatory government service proposed here often. I understand the intent, but wonder if this is a rhetorical position rather than a practical policy suggestion?

At four million births per year in the U.S., requiring a three-year enlistment would add 12 million soldiers - or let's say 10 million or so who actually are able to serve. The current U. S. military strength is a little over 2 million, regular and reserve, and to train, equip and pay these folks costs some $600 billion a year, plus extra money for the wars. Quintupling the size of the armed forces, it seems to me, would suck up all discretionary dollars in the Federal budget and then some, requiring big tax increases or stepped-up government borrowing. The cost seems wildly out of whack with any benefit we would gain.

The other issue is one of liberty. As much as most of us resent unnecessary government intrusions in our lives, why would we go for this? Doesn't compulsory government service represent the ultimate in the curtailment of individual liberty, short of incarceration? I think most reasonable folks (including me) can support a draft in wartime, when the need is obvious, but if there is no military purpose in it I surely would resist.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

And if we had a military of 10 million, just imagine the things our civilian leadership would get us into...might as well get our money's worth...kind of like Maslow's hammer...if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

I like the idea about everybody having some skin in the game, but I would never support it to the extent suggested in this thread. I don't know what level would make sense to me, but I would like to see some kind of setup where we're all in this together.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

When it does come time to really go to war..I can see the draft being non-effective as there will be too many who will resist, will not understand nor care about the need to go, and following the logic of "the government can't make me", it will be hard to get the people required. Jail is not really a deterrent either..most people are not afraid to go to jail anymore.

Today many families have no one left that has ever been in the military, and most children do not know a single person who is presently serving in any capacity. Many in the US are not born here, they have no invested concern for the well being of the US and a great deal of people here are simply fulfilling job visas and education visas. Not to mention the illegal alien population that is soon to be assimilated into the US via whatever means Obama can come up to do so. 

The birth rate in the US has been falling for decades, and there are no indications that the birth rate will rise anytime soon. http://www.prb.org/publications/dat...tion-data-sheet/fact-sheet-us-population.aspx
The U.S. total fertility rate (TFR) stood at 2.0 births per woman in 2009, but preliminary data from the National Center for Health Statistics show that the TFR dropped to 1.9 in 2010&#8212;well below the replacement level of 2.1.1 A similar decline&#8212;or leveling off&#8212;of fertility rates has been reported in Ireland, Italy, Spain, Sweden, and several other European countries.

There is no skin in the game for any young adult these days unless they happen to want to join the military. And that means four years and what if the kid melts down after a year? No getting out unless it becomes a black mark forever on discharge papers affecting pretty much all job opportunities in the civilian world. At least requiring two years or less of compulsory service in some manner (could be civil service, public service, etc) young adults could do a "try it on for size" before committing for a time frame they can't leave. Part of the idea is to give these kids an alternative to regular college, teach them some life skills in order to get a job and become responsible and prepare them for responsibility.

I know, most of y'all think every kid comes equipped with those things..sadly they do not and more and more are no where near ready for the "real" world. I see it in interns where I work, I hear it from college professors who spend their time remanding kids back to pre-college classes and counseling, I see it in the increasing numbers of kids who have no idea what they want to do so go to college just cause and end up in debt that they will never get paid off.

If a program could help half the kids so that they don't end up in jail, develop a sense of pride in their country and in themselves; teach life skills and job skills - I would gladly pay my taxes to promote that. I am sure that there would be some problems and not all young adults would benefit (hence a short time frame) but the alternative options do not seem to be working that great.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Old Vet said:


> So you want to get free heath care from the VA just because you served for 4 years? No bodily injury or the like? You can get the VA to take care if you if you meat income guidelines but you will have to pay them.Just like it was promised to you. I have been going to the VA for many years and have heard lots of stories about what the Government promised them but most of them are just stories. I was around before the volunteer Army was thought about and after it became the law and have reenlisted in the volunteer Army and the fact of the promise had never change but could be misunderstood. Even if you have PTSD you can have that thaken care of just by appealing for it. I have been contacted by the VA to get treatment for it.


Old Vet, I guess I might not feel the way I do except for a few things.
I think we just had some of our military just come back from another country. Their job while they were there was to build clinics and hospitals for the people of that country. Funny how those military personnel will not have the same care in their own country. That does bother me a little.
One more thing, ask any politician about their benefits while in office and after they leave that office just after one term. Ask a politician who was found guilty of some crime while in office how their benefits are.
Ever hear about all of the billions of $ the U.S. gives other countries? How about all of the food, clothing, housing, and medical they give to citizens of other countries?

Do you think our military should not have the same thing we give so freely to citizens of other countries.
One thing is different. We were promised benefits. Citizens of other countries, even those fighting against our military were not promised anything. Somehow the people think they deserve it and our military does not.

Just little things like that bother me.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Little things like that bother me as well Pancho. 

Little things like the VA renting out part of their facilities/land to businesses while allowing veterans to be homeless and uncared for in the streets. Little things like lying, falsifying wait times at clinics and not giving needed care so vets die and don't cost the agency money. Those things bother me.

The utter lack of caring that the government agency who is in charge of the VA benefits has for the very members that are supposed to be in their charge. All of those things bother me.

Seems to be the way of things these days.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I wish it was law back then that anyone who got deferments and went to Russia, France,wherever lost there right to vote and hold public office. For the past 35 years these cowardly scabs have pretty much been in control. No wonder the govt is so messed up. Run by cowards whose only interest is self interest. Rant over, hockey games about to start. I bet none of those scabs played hockey.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

sidepasser said:


> Little things like that bother me as well Pancho.
> 
> Little things like the VA renting out part of their facilities/land to businesses while allowing veterans to be homeless and uncared for in the streets. Little things like lying, falsifying wait times at clinics and not giving needed care so vets die and don't cost the agency money. Those things bother me.
> 
> ...


Did you see on the news about the latest thing the VA was caught doing? It was on yesterday. They found thousands of letters for benefits from veterans that were just pushed aside. It had been going on for many years. These were not even counted in the backlog they admitted to. The VA would not answer any questions.

I will tell you of another one that you might not like.
I know a person who was sent to jail for killing a man. When they got out of jail they applied for and received disability. This is a check every month and free health care for the rest of their life. The reason for the disability, they had killed a man.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

pancho said:


> Old Vet, I guess I might not feel the way I do except for a few things.
> I think we just had some of our military just come back from another country. Their job while they were there was to build clinics and hospitals for the people of that country. Funny how those military personnel will not have the same care in their own country. That does bother me a little.
> One more thing, ask any politician about their benefits while in office and after they leave that office just after one term. Ask a politician who was found guilty of some crime while in office how their benefits are.
> Ever hear about all of the billions of $ the U.S. gives other countries? How about all of the food,they give to citizens of other countries?
> ...


You have to right to believe what you want. Is the US government paying for the care? Or are they only building the hospital and clinics and turning it over to the countries they were built in? Some of the food, clothing, housing, and medical are foreign aid and for a short time. In your case everybody would have to have all the medical care for at least a live time. 
I tried to explain the real promises that were offered to all Military. You can go beyond that and put all the suppositions you can on it but the promisies were "If you get hurt on active duty or had a event that aggravates one on acitive duty the VA will take care of you for free. If you still want to go to the VA for non service connected injury or illness the VA will care for that illness or injury for a price." Any thing else is pure fabrication.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

pancho said:


> deleted post was quoted here



I spent 21 years in the Army and were in before you thought about it. I was in long before and served in the Army when they changed to a volunteer and got out in 1987. I was first drafted in 1965 then a volunteer for the rest of the 21 years. Now things may have changed after 1987 and you may have been lied to but I doubt that. I doubt you were in the military and not in the boy scouts because they tell the truth. I was both in the Boy Scouts and the Military. But on the other hand I know what the Military said and you do not. I know because I was one that explained it to some of the ones that got in before and after I retired. I did this for about 1000 people but not all of them.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Back to the original post--

I'm glad someone has finally addressed this. I know several guys who came home to this "gratitude" who found it grating. 
My cousin always found it downright infuriating. 
"Don't thank me. If you _really_ care about us, vote to end this stupid, $&@#ing war!"

As time has gone by since discharge, he doesn't get mad so easily anymore, but he's not quite to the point of just smiling and saying you're welcome, either...


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

As far as the idea of all being signed up for military service, What I would like to see instead, is in 11th and 12th grade all gym classes are devoted to basic training. The idea being that all are responsible for the defense of the country. (not going all over the world but only here at home) I think the Swiss have something like this. All learn to use a rifle, toss a grenade and all are ready to defend the homeland against invasion. Then if a student likes it, they can go ahead and join the army, navy, air-force, or whatever. The rest of the population is trained and prepared for any defense of the home country. Of course this won't be done because the politicians would fear a trained uprising from a prepared people if they get trying to force the creation of a police state.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

BlackFeather said:


> As far as the idea of all being signed up for military service, What I would like to see instead, is in 11th and 12th grade all gym classes are devoted to basic training. The idea being that all are responsible for the defense of the country. (not going all over the world but only here at home) I think the Swiss have something like this. All learn to use a rifle, toss a grenade and all are ready to defend the homeland against invasion. Then if a student likes it, they can go ahead and join the army, navy, air-force, or whatever. The rest of the population is trained and prepared for any defense of the home country. Of course this won't be done because the politicians would fear a trained uprising from a prepared people if they get trying to force the creation of a police state.


Many of them are not ready to take Basic training. either they are to fat have a disability or have record that will keep them from it. Many of them are going to get a record just because they can and get exempted. You already have the JR ROTC in many schools and how many feel inclined to go that rout? Basic training is much more than learning how to shoot and through grenades it is about tearing the bad person down and building a good person along with shooting a gun and throwing a grenade which can be learned in one weekend. Not everybody is compatible with the military in any situation.


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## michael ark (Dec 11, 2013)

Heres how we treat our vet 's in arkansas.:hairhttp://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2011/12/13/care-standards-violated-at-state-veterans-home


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

I agree we don't do enough for our vets, but back to the OP, I still don't get how that means I shouldn't thank a vet for his service. It seems like some of you guys are saying the gov't treats vets like dirt so the public should as well. It makes no sense to me. In fact, the opposite makes sense. Recognizing the gov't doesn't hold up its end of the bargain, I would think a kind word from the public indicating we don't approve of the gov't would be appreciated.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> I agree we don't do enough for our vets, but back to the OP, I still don't get how that means I shouldn't thank a vet for his service. It seems like some of you guys are saying the gov't treats vets like dirt so the public should as well. It makes no sense to me. In fact, the opposite makes sense. Recognizing the gov't doesn't hold up its end of the bargain, I would think a kind word from the public indicating we don't approve of the gov't would be appreciated.


Because they don't want it in that way. That changes it from a kindness to a burden.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

where I want to said:


> Because they don't want it in that way. That changes it from a kindness to a burden.


please explain because I'm still not getting your point


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

michael ark said:


> Heres how we treat our vet 's in arkansas.:hairhttp://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlo...are-standards-violated-at-state-veterans-home


That article is from 2011. many things have change from that time. One is the home in Little Rock has closed and the one in Fateville has a lot of new staff. Yes they treated them bad but all nursery homes have too.


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## michael ark (Dec 11, 2013)

The simple fact is they had more violations than any nursing home has ever had in the state ever. They broke records in nursing home care with the neglect and abuse. It was so bad they had to shut it down. I have worked in and for many nursing home throughout the state and the list of list of offences are worse than i have ever heard of and i worked at some that were on elder abuse websites. Now that we are down to only one veterans retirement home is a disgrace we are going backwards as a state.


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## michael ark (Dec 11, 2013)

With it our lifetime there will be no draft.[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt3RU-dhEUk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt3RU-dhEUk[/ame]


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

michael ark said:


> With it our lifetime there will be no draft.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt3RU-dhEUk


That is a good invention when will they become available or is it just a pipe dream. We will never have another draft unless we get in to a war and need people. I was drafted what else can we do about it except move to Canada.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I love being acknowledged by a fellow vet. I sometimes cringe at being thanked by a civilian. There are many who deserve far more thanks than me. It's like when someone says, "I love you". Do they, really? It sounds nice when you say it though, I suppose.

I work with vets sometimes, and now and then I'll see those guys with a Medal of Honor or, even more, crippled bodies and, I want to salute them. But, I NEVER do. I treat them with kindness and respect, as I would most anyone else. Glad they made it home.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I agreed with the article. I am vet and so are most of my family members and none of us like to be thanked.


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

If someone feels compelled to say thank you, I don't think we should hold that against them. They mean well. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it makes me angry. What exactly are you thanking me for? That I put on a uniform and took an oath that many will never take? Or are you thanking me for living in hell and hating myself for things done and things not done. Not sure but I really can't take it out on a civilian that wants to. I appreciate it mostly coming from a fellow vet because we have a sort of connection that I can't have with most folks. 
I know this is hard for civilians to understand but understand we raised our right hand and did what was asked of us. Good or bad. But we now have a different perspective than you, I don't hold it against you, just give me a little room to breathe. WWII were praised, Vietnam Vets treated like trash, then 9/11 made people start to show more appreciation for the military.

I had a real hard time adjusting when I got out, Years. Now those feelings are creeping back. I don't say much about my service. My wife thinks I was in the states the whole time. It is easier to hide behind my keyboard and spill my guts. The likelihood of ever seeing anyone here is very low and sometimes I feel better after I vent a little.
I lost a very good friend down there. He died with honor. I hate myself for letting him get it. I hate him for taking the easy way out. I have to stay here and deal with the crap in my head. There is no way to win that battle in my head. Just like the rest of what i did. I did my duty as i was told. At what point should i have not done that. 

I have not used many of my benefits. Angie, I so appreciate how you tried to talk with Pancho. He's a little whacked. But most of the guys I served with are whacked to some extent. I went to the VA to sign up when i got out and was treated like such a piece of crap by the civilians that I threw my folder on the ladies desk, told her exactly what to do with it and never applied again. Wrong for me to do that. I just happened to be at a place that was poorly run and famous for being poorly run. 
I've probably said too much already. But it does feel better to let a little out. Sometimes I don't even know if this all took place or just in my head. I have lived a good life otherwise. I have managed to maintain a professional life and not get out of hand. The older I get though, it seems harder to push those things back into the dark and quiet places of my mind. I have a wife that puts up with me, 6 kids that i dearly love. If not for them, i would have crossed over already.

So say thank you if you want. I won't hold it against you. But for God's sake, don't ask me if I was in a war. Don't ask me if I ever had to kill someone. That just makes me want to punch...crap! Just don't ask! If I feel like talking, I will. You really don't need to know and wouldn't understand anyway. 

If you really want to thank a Vet, go to a Memorial Day Parade. Visit a Military Grave that day. Put your flag up on your house. Vote for people who will quit taking money from the VA. Call your congressman and tell him to get off his dead @&& and get the VA cleaned up. Get informed. Most people think the VA is part of the Military. IT IS NOT. Ran by civilians who quite often are from the bottom of the barrel. Not all. I know there are some good ones there who are trying. 
I and many others go through this hell in our heads every day. Many people grieve over a loved one who will never return. The least you can do is put your flag up and call your worthless representative or senator. Not asking much. Do that and you won't need to say thank you and then dredge up all this crap in my head again.

Sorry for the rant but someone asked and I really don't know how to explain.


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