# Home defence kills child.



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

5 year old finds granny's gun under the pillow and kills self.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/det...s-gun-begs-people-to-keep-guns-away-from-kids

They are never to young to start training gun safety and if you believe other wise *LOCK THEM UP*.

 Al


----------



## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

So tragic.
I don't understand the happy face.:shrug:


----------



## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Why make fun of something so tragic?


----------



## Ellendra (Jul 31, 2013)

Please change the emoticon. That's sickening.


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm really hoping the use of that emoticon is just a matter of miscommunication, something along the lines of what is described in this article: http://grouplens.org/blog/investigating-the-potential-for-miscommunication-using-emoji/

That 'smiley' face is one of the worst for getting misinterpreted on different devices. However, we should all be seeing the same smiley face since it's a forum provided icon, so I'm really not sure what's up.

According to the mouse over popup in the "Post Icons" box, that green smiley means "Talking", so if someone has images turned off and is just relying on the text description of the icon, it could have a very different meaning.

Edit to add this: I found some more info here that could explain it: http://emojipedia.org/grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes/



> A version of the grinning face, which looks closers to a grimacing face on many platforms.
> 
> Due to the popularity of the Apple emoji artwork, this is commonly used as a grimacing face, instead of a grinning (smiling) face with smiling eyes.
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that emoticons/emoji, which were intended to help clarify tone and mood in text-only communication, are in some cases just adding to the confusion and misunderstanding.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

that smiley face is in his signature , Al would never make fun of a needless death


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

I think the issue is more with the identical smiley face used in the post title, vs the one in Al's signature.

I'm just trying to make people aware that emoticons can have different meanings to different people, and that the grinning smiley is one of the worst for causing miscommunication.

Even the green grinning smiley (aka Mr. Green) provided by the forum software is guilty of being misinterpreted. Most people think "big cheesy grin", others think "friendly/funny sarcastic", and others think "friendly envy" due to the green color. Personally, I've always been in the last group, since having it green vs yellow doesn't make sense to me otherwise.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> that smiley face is in his signature , Al would never make fun of a needless death


There's also one in the thread title that had to be put there intentionally from the list below




> Post Icons
> You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
> No icon Post Thumbs down Wink Red face Talking Unhappy Angry
> Smile Cool Question Exclamation Lightbulb Arrow Thumbs up


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's also one in the thread title that had to be put there intentionally from the list below


Not that I'm defending the use of the emoticon in this situation, but every single post and every single thread, no matter what the topic, no matter what the forum, that alleyyooper has ever written starts with the same emoticon. It must be habit/tradition with him.


----------



## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Good to know Cabinfever, I hadn't noticed that.


----------



## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

On this forum the icon he used is called happy2 -- not much interpretation in that. I think it's sickening to use it for a news story like this one, even if he usually does so.


----------



## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Is the OP perhaps a gun control lobbyist or some such nonsense?? That is about the only reason anyone could be happy about this. 

Lets hope this is a misunderstanding.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> Not that I'm defending the use of the emoticon in this situation, but every single post and every single thread, no matter what the topic, no matter what the forum, that alleyyooper has ever written starts with the same emoticon. *It must be habit/tradition with him*.


I hadn't noticed that, but it makes sense now

Thanks!


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

follow this link and you see a hole page of those smiles http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/search.php?searchid=6081140


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

So sorry the smiley faces I use in each and every post has upset so many of you. Maybe If you got your head out of  in the sun shine And really read what I posted you would see the reason I took the time to post.

Kids are never to young to learn about firearms and handling them safely and if you believe other wise *LOCK THE GUN UP WHEN KIDS ARE PERESANT.*


:bouncy: Gun lobbyist :bouncy: I probably spend more days a year hunting than many of you do reading.

thanks Pete


 Al


----------



## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Alleyyooper, I would like to extend my sincerest apologies to you. My bad, but I couldn't help but wonder lol


----------



## mainehomesteader (Feb 7, 2015)

alleyyooper said:


> Kids are never to young to learn about firearms and handling them safely


When my son was five years old, he knew where all my loaded guns were kept, and could handle them any time he wanted - if he asked me first. Of course he never did, because we routinely handled them in the course of our life, and his curiosity was 100% satisfied by that. He had been firing my handguns, including the .44 magnum, since he was about 3. Yes, I helped him hold them, and we both wore ear protection. He was impressed by the power. I demonstrated this to a friend once, sitting at the table. My son was 5. I asked him to fetch the 9mm for me, he turned, got it from my bedroom closet, using a chair to reach it, and carried it in a safe manner to me at the table. I took it from him, continued my discussion with my friend about gun safety training for children, and then asked my son to return it to the closet, which he did. Yeah, gun training for children, in my opinion, is part of gun ownership. If a gun owner disagrees, he probably shouldn't own a gun.


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Thanks for the reminder, Al. 

I know where your heart is from reading your posts over the years. Best wishes.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

As a side note to the story granny is probably going to jail on top of loosening a grand child. Standing law in Michigan about harm to a child due to the gun not being properly locked up. then add in child endangerment.

 Al


----------



## joejeep92 (Oct 11, 2010)

I have children and I have guns. My offspring learn from an early age that unless I tell you or allow you to touch them, NEVER touch a gun. There were loaded guns in my parents and both grandparents houses when I was a kid (I'm not yet 30 so it wasn't that long ago) and I had enough respect (fear?) to not touch them. I would sure ask to though. If anyone gets a chance, read Elmer Keith in Sixguns on kids with guns. Elmer believed in keeping all guns loaded because you were supposed to treat them like they were loaded anyway, in fact, upon his death they unloaded quite a few fine firearms that were at the ready. He also believed kids shouldn't point even toy guns at people because they should treat all guns as real and loaded, I remember that rule very vividly from my childhood. I was brought up by men who had used and seen guns used in violent circumstances. They did not respond by hating guns but by training their kids and grandkids in what to do and what not to do. These deaths are tragic and can be prevented with proper training.


----------



## Murby (May 24, 2016)

I have about a dozen guns.. most are rifles and shotguns, an AR10, and a few handguns. 

There's only one weapon in the home that is loaded and ready and its kept 24 inches from my side of the bed in something called a "FAS1" safe with a push button, mechanical combination lock. 

Both my wife and I can open the safe in complete darkness within 4 seconds... and quietly. Actually, it takes here a couple extra seconds because she'd have to crawl over me to get to it.
When the safe opens, via a gas pressure piston, the gun is in a holster that is attached to the safe and the handle is sticking out so it can be grabbed and fired.


----------



## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

joejeep92
Hello Joe
#1 I agree 100% with your post.
Tragic YES.
But it is our "Society" and the Socialist/Liberal Democrats that promote Gun control.
So they can disarm the general public and the Corrupt Media goes along with it for the $$$$ they get to stir the pot to make it controversy.
===============
I grew up like you with gun and safety training both in hand and planted in my brain, worked in gun shop Certified as Range Officer in 3 different Associations.

Have used and trained troops in LRP and been their backup with a good Sniper rifle.
Afghanistan as a "Contract" Employee for 4 years. Training some of our best men how to use horses to extend their duration in the field and make no noise going in or out. I was the back up man on teams at times when they were short handed.
Call it Camp minder/horse holder there were a few times when the close in troops needed to E&E the site and needed long range cover fire. Yes, I also lased sites for guided munitions. I will settle up with God when the time comes, so far I should have been dead 3 times and I am still here and passing on information I have learned.
HE must still have a project or two I need to do. 
Every fast to hand gun is loaded here, I don't have children and do not or directly supervise any child that comes in the house by themselves. 
The whole "Common Core BS, and the fact that "Most" Modern parents have no skills in disciplining their children (Just go to Wal-Mart for proof) 
They can not even train a dog let alone a child.
Ok end of my Rant for now.
If you are teaching your children gun safety and how to shoot well.
My Hat is doffed to you and your kids.
Respectfully 
hihibaron


----------



## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Murby
Hello M
Your self-opening pistol safe is a OK Idea.
But: In my experience and tests it has been proven that to go from Relaxed/sleep to aware enough to hit a target in low light far exceeds the amount of time in a combat or even hunting situation. The average time you get to ID,Recognize the Target is around 15 seconds. Then you sill have to direct your shot.
Yes: Your Lock Box is good if you wake up and hear them coming but once they are at the bedroom door and your asleep you are SOL. In that case it could be your kid coming in from having a bad dream and wanting comfort. I will not go further.
Having to unlock your gun first in risky situation means you have to cut time out of the ID part of things. When you don't ID the Target positively it is not a good situation.

I used to do Police Certification as Range officer. 
I had a test they hated me for
Lay them down on a prone shooting mat. With their pistol un- holstered feet on the firing line. Put a Silhouette man size target up on the range at 15 feet.
Turn the lights off for 15 minutes (or so) the signal to sit up and fire 5 rounds was when the lights came on with only 1/4 of the range lights on .
No, LEO every put more than one round into main body mass of target.
They made a stink over that part of the testing, always but the Chief LEO liked the idea because it was like a officer sitting in a patrol car after dark seeing something opening the door and losing all his night vision then having to ID a target and shoot or not. I timed them many times and from lights on to empty guns less than 30 seconds. 
It takes most human eyes about 60 seconds to adapt from night vision to light vision
You are basically blind in that time frame.

Respectfully
Good Shooting ,Be Safe
hihobaron


----------



## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't have much to say here that hasn't already been pointed out, but as an aside, it's really nice to see gun threads on the actual gun section rather than on General chat as it has been.


----------



## Murby (May 24, 2016)

hihobaron said:


> Yes: Your Lock Box is good if you wake up and hear them coming but once they are at the bedroom door and your asleep you are SOL. In that case it could be your kid coming in from having a bad dream and wanting comfort. I will not go further.
> Having to unlock your gun first in risky situation means you have to cut time out of the ID part of things. When you don't ID the Target positively it is not a good situation.


I have an 4 leg early warning system with high def audio detection scanners! 

In all seriousness.. I would never expect someone to enter my home at night when we're sleeping.. but even if someone was dumb enough to do that, my dog would know they're approaching the home before they even got close.

The gun is "on the ready" in case my wife is home alone during the day and someone suspicious comes around... better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Even if a bad guy rang the door and then busted in, she would be able to run to the other side of the house and get it quickly enough before the intruder knew what was happening.... 

Then there's the occasional racoon going after the chickens in the middle of the night.. its always good for that. 

I'm not some delusional Rambo wanna-be who thinks he's going to go all Dirty Harry on some stealthy ninja trying to assassinate me in the middle of the night... The gun is locked up for my child's safety... before we had our kid, it was sitting on the nightstand under a towel.. it does get used every now and then but mostly for wild animals trying to make a happy meal out of my live stock.


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Murby,

The ready draw gun box as you show is similar to the ones GF and I use at her house where the grandkids are, only the ones she found also have a thumb print scanner programmed to each of us for our weapon box on our sides of her bed. If we need access to each others draw safes, we have to spend a couple seconds more using the combination rather than our thumbprint .

The thumbprint scanner isn't any longer than unsnapping a holster and use of the combination no longer than drawing from a nightstand.

The biometric safes while a bit pricier, provide she and I with confidence that the toddlers cannot gain access to our weapons without hampering our own access drastically, however I personally prefer the between the mattress and box spring mounted bed holsters in my child free home where my weapon spends the night after I take it off my person until it goes back in my pocket holster when I put my pants on in the morning.


----------



## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Shrek said:


> Murby,
> 
> The ready draw gun box as you show is similar to the ones GF and I use at her house where the grandkids are, only the ones she found also have a thumb print scanner programmed to each of us for our weapon box on our sides of her bed. If we need access to each others draw safes, we have to spend a couple seconds more using the combination rather than our thumbprint .
> 
> ...


I know a lot of people like the biometric safes, but I don't... 
Batteries, malfunctions, bathtub fingers, bypass keys.. etc etc.. 

The fas1 safe is made of 3/16 plate steel and weighs about 30 to 35 lbs empty.. built like a tank... And no electronics to break.

I'm real weary about the electronics failing..


----------



## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Home defense did not kill the child. Grandma's failure to provide a safe environment, likely failed to train herself and failure to train the child killed the child. Tragic. My son grew up with our guns in the house. Teaching him was one of the most important things I ever did.


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Murby said:


> I know a lot of people like the biometric safes, but I don't...
> Batteries, malfunctions, bathtub fingers, bypass keys.. etc etc..
> 
> The fas1 safe is made of 3/16 plate steel and weighs about 30 to 35 lbs empty.. built like a tank... And no electronics to break.
> ...


I don't really like them either but it's her house and she bought them. As long as they have the mechanical combination lock that can be used in case the battery dies or the scan pad fails , I can live with it when I am at her house.

The rare occasion when I have non adults spend the night in my house , my weapons are either locked in my gun safe or in the case of my bedside weapon , I use a key lock fire box under my side of the bed to store it and sleep with the key on a wrist strap just in case a youngster were to wander into my room at night.


----------

