# How much should you really plant to be self-sufficient



## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

I have been pondering this question as I begin my garden season this year. One of my daughters and her family, having their house destroyed and moving back in, has me thinking as I watch my pantry goods shrink exponentially. I found this....

http://www.wellfedhomestead.com/how...-your-garden-to-provide-a-years-worth-of-food

........but was wondering if others had some ideas.

We have five acres, but my vegetable garden is on just a little less than an acre. We have an orchard and herb garden area, but I know from when the other daughter lived with us for a year, that it is just NOT enough. We have been increasing our area and have added a large greenhouse. That helps with year round production, but I still know that I need to grow more. 

Now, I am looking at this from the assumption that I will need to raise all of my food. I understand food storage, but keep thinking about long term. Our ancestors had more room to hunt and farm. I need some help thinking about what it would be like today to be forced into self-sufficiency.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

Your link is a good start ... and the numbers are startling. I'm at the very beginning stages of this. I started when I saw the post about "grow 50% of your food". I'm not even close! The idea of growing even 50% is over-whelming.

I started by trying to figure out what we actually eat. The next step is to figure out how much of each item we actually eat. Some of these items I'll never be able to grow successfully so, if I were 100% sustainable, I'd have to find alternatives. In our case, food allergies (mine) make a huge difference. For instance, I'm allergic to sugar beets (and probably wouldn't be able to refine sugar from them anyway) and I'm allergic to bee's wax (there is always bee's wax in honey so I no longer eat honey). Unless I could grow enough sugar cane, find a source for molasses or gather maple syrup (unlikely given my local), I'm pretty much without sugar.

Keep in mind, I am using this list also to determine what to put in my food storage.

What we eat:

MEATS (proteins - we eat a lot of meat)
eggs
turkey
chicken
beans - white, red, pinto, black
pork - ham, loin, bacon, ribs
meatballs (any meat combination)
beef - mostly steak and ground (hamburgers)
sausage (any meat combination)
fish (I prefer salmon but that isn't happening when it comes to grow-my-own)
So far we haven't been hunting for deer or duck. We have wild turkey and deer on the property and wild pig in the area.

DRINKS
coffee - regular and decaf
tea - regular, decaf and herbal
lemonade
limeade
cola / root beer / lemon-lime soda / ginger ale / orange soda
apple juice
orange juice
I like grape juice and cranberry juice but I'm the only one so we don't tend to buy it.
milk - rarely. The whole family is dairy intolerant so we don't consume much.

FRUITS
strawberries / strawberry jam
oranges
bananas
peaches / nectarines
cantaloupe
watermelon
raspberries (I'm allergic but hubby and daughter love these)
blackberries
blueberries
grapes / grape jam
apples
cherries

VEGETABLES
tomatoes / tomato sauces
lettuce
peppers - bell, spicy
corn
broccoli
cauliflower
yams
potatoes - red, yellow, russett
carrots
cabbage
celery
summer squashes - spaghetti, patty pan, zucchini, crook neck / yellow, etc
winter squashes - acorn, butternut, pumpkin (we use a lot of canned pumpkin year round)
beets
green beans - regular, Italian, sugar snap

STARCHES / GRAINS
rice - corn - wheat - oats ... mostly processed into:
pasta
corn chips / tortillas
bread - wheat
bread - gluten-free
cookies - wheat
cookies - gluten-free
cereals / granola
cakes, cinnamon rolls, yeast rolls and buns

OTHER
nuts - almonds, walnuts, cashews, Brazil nuts, peanuts
peanut butter
oil
cheese
butter
honey
agave nectar
white cane sugar
brown sugar
maple syrup
yeast
cornstarch
baking soda
baking powder
cream of tartar
Xanthm gum
cinnamon
salt
black pepper
garlic
onions - chives, scallions, yellow, red
basil
sage
dill
nutmeg
ginger
mustard
chocolate
alcohol


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

[YOUTUBE]66AuL1cI7wg[/YOUTUBE]


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

In the Little House book series..."Farmer Boy" talks alot about what was grown and how it was stored....what was traded etc.

Chickens and rabbits are easy keepers/feeders and supply steady small protein that is easily butchered at home...my 12 yo can do 4 rabbits an hour w/o a struggle.

A couple of goats for dairy products...surplus pumpkins are great feed for goats.

A lot can be done in small space if its managed well...


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

size is not an issue...desire is.


[YOUTUBE]NCmTJkZy0rM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Last year I did about half an acre for my wife and me. It was all of the veggies that we ate for the year and we still have a few dozen jars and some stuff in the freezer. Now keep in mind that we don't ONLY eat veggies. We also bought things that we cannot grow like rice, pasta, flour, and ready made bread.

We butchered something like 20 chickens too, and have a pretty good laying flock. But even with that I just can't eat chicken all the time, so we still bought beef and pork.

I think it really depends on whether or not you are willing to eat ONLY what you grow, or supplement a bit to add variety/bulk. I'd bet you could do alright with half acre per person if you planned to have a mostly veggie diet.

I have the same goals as you, that is 'self sufficiency'. So I am slowly ramping it up, this year I will do the half acre again, chickens, and add a couple of lambs. I also do alright fishing during summer and fall. Some things I just don't see myself getting away from like pasta, rice, cheese, cooking oil and flour.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

In reading over the "plants per person", I think lot of them are way too low, based on our experience. 

5 sweet potato plants PP ?.....we do more like 30-40 PP.

2-5 tomato plants PP ?.....we do a couple dozen PP.

Either they get a whole lot more per plant that we do, or something.....

Also, you have to allow for 'bad' years. Last year, for example, was a really wet year here.....tomatoes didn't do well at all, but we still had enough to put up because we plant a lot. In the years things do good, put up more.....next year may be sorry. If you find you have excess, feed it to pigs, chickens, etc. Last year, we had excess eggs into the fall. Wife froze them, and this year's spring piglets got a real protein boost from them.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

I have a fairly small garden, so I plant a crop that has high value. So I can buy the ones that are room hogs. (No it's not what your thinking!)
But most all food could easily be bartered or sold make up the difference on things you can't grow your self. Rice, pepper ect.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

elkhound said:


> size is not an issue...desire is.


True Elkhound, but also climate/location will dictate what we can grow.

Ma Nature has us under her control, as to what we can grow. Even then, she can throw a hissy fit and bye bye gardens/fruits be they trees, shrubs, etc. 

We all might have to rely on a much simpler diet then we do now, IMO 
Thats if what the OP says, that we are forced into self-sufficiency happens.

Much like many years ago in struggling times. They were happy to get potatoes and a few different veggies and hopefully some meat.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

CountryCabin said:


> True Elkhound, but also climate/location will dictate what we can grow.
> 
> Ma Nature has us under her control, as to what we can grow. Even then, she can throw a hissy fit and bye bye gardens/fruits be they trees, shrubs, etc.
> 
> ...



i can see us eating more turnips too along with the green tops as well.

its going to be adjustment for all of us...more some than others ...some less than others.

you gotta ask yaself can i eat turnips X days in a row?

or potatoes X days or whatever...asparagus and eggs are usually a glut in spring.

i believe we have lost alot in ability in cooking straight from the garden and how to adapt foods to meet certain situations.

spices are a big bonus to make foods different and while they are cheap a person should stockpile them.one place is spicebarn.

also growing herbs for spices close to kitchen door to make it easy on oneself and stretch any bought goods. one thing i been doing is adding a bit of cilantro to cabbage it really adds something to it.

p.s. if zepp holzer can grow lemons in austria i think anything might be possible...i have expanded to olives and i hope they made it this winter.i am yet to see a leaf.i am finding more and more subtle micro climates.bloomsdale longstanding spinach survived -5f here for me and i am eating greens galore before anyone else has a item planted much less harvested and eating.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

elkhound said:


> i believe we have lost alot in ability in cooking straight from the garden and how to adapt foods to meet certain situations.


There is an old lady on Utube ( 90 something ) she does a series called "Great depression cooking". She shows meals that they ate back then and tells stories from her own experience during that time. It's really interesting to watch and there are several recipes that I have used.

Here's one 

[YOUTUBE]3OPQqH3YlHA&list=TLr96nDwxl-AIsn_dci9koL234Pmf7JqFo[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one thing i had happen too this year the super cold winter killed off my kales.but for some reason the root system survived and i was going to chop it all up.but i noticed a touch of green so i left it.i have a small bit of kale to eat too.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one other thing is we might have to learn to eat what grows naturally in our areas. for me acorns,cattail and wildgame and fish.would be my largest additions. i get 99.9% of my red meat from wilds right now.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

claytonpiano said:


> I need some help thinking about what it would be like today to be forced into self-sufficiency.


All I can suggest is figure out what you and yours need for main meals and hit those hard in planting.

IE: Potatoes..they can go in so many things, hash browns, mashed and added to flour for breads, soups, casseroles...ya get the picture I think.

Tomatoes the same. So many uses. Juice, sauces, soups, their use is pretty well endless.

Onions and garlic...My goodness!
I do not know what I would do without them. 
Someone once said, If I could get away with it, I would add to homemade puddin's. :happy2:

After you hit what you use the most then go for planting other stuff.
I focus mainly on what preserves the easier with least power to do so (think no power = no freezer, fridge), along with what I use the most.

I also stock up on all kinds of spices that I can't grow here.

Sorry not a lot of help I know, just tossin ideas out there.

Good luck!


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

elkhound said:


> i can see us eating more turnips too along with the green tops as well.
> 
> its going to be adjustment for all of us...more some than others ...some less than others.
> 
> ...


This has been on my mind this winter as we haven't quite figured out a good productive winter garden. A neighbor gave us incredible turnips in January he'd just dug. I'm trying to eat what we have growing here. And if I do buy veggies, buy only in season. Although I broke down yesterday and bought red peppers. I do have some dehydrated ones, but don't want to use them up. Oh well. 

As I picked the itty bitty brussel sprouts off the plants a few weeks ago, I noticed the beautiful leaves. I told my husband, 'If we were starving, we'd be eating these". They were excellent, good sauteed and held up in soup like kale does. The brussel sprout flowers were excellent too. 

I think the cold weather veggies are going to be a key to survival. You really need to be growing food year round.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

If you have room and the right climate put in a bed of parsnips. Left in the ground to over winter, they can help fill in the gap between last years potatoes and the new years new potatoes.
This years parsnip bed was so large we dug the last of them and froze and dryed alot of them because we needed to plant spring cabbages and brocolli.
If you leave a few for the summer they go to seed and you'll get more seed than you'll ever need.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

Vosey said:


> Although I broke down yesterday and bought red peppers. I do have some dehydrated ones, but don't want to use them up. Oh well.


Seeing you are on the west coast you may get enough sunlight to grow a couple peppers indoors. Pot them up now, in at least a 2 gal pot bigger if you can, then take inside when weather turns. That way no transplant shock.
I grow mine under shop lights in winter. They work extremely well.
Leaving them alone is another matter. lol



> As I picked the itty bitty brussel sprouts off the plants a few weeks ago, I noticed the beautiful leaves. I told my husband, 'If we were starving, we'd be eating these". They were excellent, good sauteed and held up in soup like kale does. The brussel sprout flowers were excellent too.


Its amazing what there to eat but no one seems to see it...yet. 
Good for you!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Think about the vegetables and plants you commonly eat, and about the plants that would be a good addition for you. Look for high density nutrition. For instance, this year I plan on growing amaranth both for the leaves and the seeds. Kale is great because it is long lasting. If you cover it you can pick from it when snow is on the ground, we grow it in a small greenhouse for winter greens. You can eat beet greens, big sugar beets or little beets. Little beets grow quickly and you can plant another crop, or grow something else it their place.

Because you have a longer growing season than many of us, think of varying your planting. What grows well in May? What grows well in the high heat? What grows well in the fall? You can use the same bed for more than one food. In the same place you can grow lettuce, then beans, then lettuce again. Lettuce grows well with tomatoes, as do carrots so you don&#8217;t have to have a separate bed for those. The big leaves of cantaloupe or watermelon will shade the beds of other vegetables, making it less labor intensive for you.

Chickens may be your biggest bang for the buck in the protein department (and fertilizer, too). Rhode Island Red are steady every day layers until winter. Orpingtons don&#8217;t lay every day, but they lay longer, so they are laying when the RIR have stopped. Chickens eat bugs too and kill snakes. How many you need would depend on if you plan on butchering them (you don&#8217;t need more than a couple of roosters) and how much your family likes eggs, which can be hidden in food.

Tomatoes will grow year round if you bring a couple of plants inside, or at least protect them in the winter (not sure about your winters). They will stop producing flowers when the days get short, but they will be big when the days get longer and start producing right away.

For long term, think about a hedgerow of hazelnut and blueberries or other producing bushes that will grow in your area. Jerusalem artichokes produce a beautiful stand of tall flowers that require no care and most people don&#8217;t know the tuber/rhizome is edible. They are there when you need them, and pretty when you don&#8217;t. 

You can buy lambs in the spring, keep them on pasture until Christmas, then butcher them. Or, butcher them as you need them.

I&#8217;m also wondering how keen these additional people are on gardening. Do they understand that they will be growing most of their food? Would they be willing to buy food to supplement the garden? You can still think long term, but think of right now, today, and how you will all work this out.

P.S., I&#8217;m very sorry they lost their home. That is devastating.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

What I have found for myself and my family it is about using what is available in my area. 
The first thing is to look at your farm at the start of each month and honestly look at what you could have done to have a crop for that month. It may be as simple as a pomegrany or passion fruit that ripens after the first frost. It may be that green house that you never built, but look hard at what could you do and next year be closer to that goal. 
For me it is a clean slate since we are moving to a new farm this year. That means that we are using any excess money to buy canned veggies. Rather have the home grown but that is a decision we made. I am blessed that I have some heavy equipment that I will be able to modify the land to better feed my family, a shovel is good but a CT332 John Deere is better.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

Cookie2 said:


> Unless I could grow enough sugar cane, find a source for molasses or gather maple syrup (unlikely given my local), I'm pretty much without sugar.


What about Stevia?


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## hickerbillywife (Feb 28, 2014)

I was also thinking about stevia. To stock up or grow your own. Not sure how to use the plant leaves but thought it might be a good alternative to sugar. I also wish I had known that walmart has buckets of flour that are long term storage, I have been buying wheat berries but I will need a much better grinder than I have. I will be getting the flour next time. I also wonder about their #10 cans of dried celery/onions/peppers and stuff like that instead of dehydrating them myself. I think I'd feel better if I had several cans of those in my storage. I'd feel much better with lots more of everything in my storage.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

from the book...........Southern Crops.....copyrighted 1947..........put out through folks associated with the Progressive Farmer magazine..................they advocated that a "Master Farmer" should "live at Home"...a plan that commercial farming threw to the wayside.....but is useful today and maybee the future..............

Here is some examples from the South Carolina live-at-home plan
family of 5....2 adults.3 children
Milk 1 quart per child/1 pint for adult....1lb a butter a week per person= 2 cows freshened at different seasons giving 2 gallons a day for 10 months...holding 15 gallons a week for butter
Meat
5 serving a week per person
1 500 lb beef, 3 180 lb hogs, 1 60 lb lamb all live weight
Chicken
10 eggs a week per person and chicken served twice a week= 50 hens and hatching 200 chicks each year
Cereals
20 to 24 lbs a week.....1 to 2 acres each of corn and wheat per year
Vegetables
by the row 600 feet of greens divided as desired, 60' of lettuce(65 heads), 19 heads of cabbage/25 feet 
Tomatoes 4.6 bushels fresh....6 bushel or 108 quarts canned/ 3 plantings early/medium/late 200 foot row each
Other veg like corn-oonons-beans-peas-carrots-beets ect
303 lbs fresh 130lb stored for 26 weeks 301 lbs canned......1000 ' of planted rows

Potatoes
1 serving daily at 3 servings to a pound= 10 bushels Irish and sweet= 5 100 foot rows each 2 and 1/2 pecks seed Irish, and 600 sweet tater plants

Fruits
2 servings daily= 12 bushels fresh/180 quarts canned= 2 fresh fruits 26 weeks/1 fruit canned 26 weeks/ 1 fruit dried or stored 26 weeks
10 apple trees, 8 peach, 4 pear,4 plum, 4 fig, 100 strawberry plants, 16 grape vines, and 50 each dewberry,blackberry, raspberry

The Virginia plan calls for 50 gallons of syrup/molasses...50 lbs of honey....and 5 gallons of apple butter

I'd tell anyone that wants to know how much to plant in their area........to reseach the crop yields in their area from 1920 to 1950...and plan accordingly.....a prime example being corn yields......up the advent of heavy use of commercial fertilizers yield of 10 to 20 bushels of corn to the acre were common in some parts of the South...planted in 5' wide rows 18" to 24" in the drill


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

hickerbillywife said:


> I was also thinking about stevia. To stock up or grow your own. Not sure how to use the plant leaves but thought it might be a good alternative to sugar. I also wish I had known that walmart has buckets of flour that are long term storage, I have been buying wheat berries but I will need a much better grinder than I have. I will be getting the flour next time. I also wonder about their #10 cans of dried celery/onions/peppers and stuff like that instead of dehydrating them myself. I think I'd feel better if I had several cans of those in my storage. I'd feel much better with lots more of everything in my storage.


I grow stevia, dehydrate it. I've started some from seed this year. I use it in tea, tho you can buy powder, I've not used it. I use more Honey than anything else, but do use sugar for making wine.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

semi-off topic. How did you get the Stevia seed to germinate? I have been totally unsuccessful!


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

claytonpiano said:


> semi-off topic. How did you get the Stevia seed to germinate? I have been totally unsuccessful!


I started my stevia with a plant from Walmart. It has bloomed twice and the seeds seemed to sprout easily. Mine also sends up new shoots from the mother plant when I keep it watered. It loves that regular watering, usually at least twice a week, and grows easily in a pot on a sunny window sill.

I did learn this past week that there seems to be more than one variety of Stevia. The kind I have has a small leaf with a pointed end. The kind I saw in a nursery this past week was a longer leaf with a rounded end.

I bring my Stevia indoors for the winter and the set it on a partly shaded patio in the summer.

B


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

The answer is all you can. You'll sooner or later have some thing that will eat every thing.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

claytonpiano said:


> I have been pondering this question as I begin my garden season this year. One of my daughters and her family, having their house destroyed and moving back in, has me thinking as I watch my pantry goods shrink exponentially. I found this....
> 
> http://www.wellfedhomestead.com/how...-your-garden-to-provide-a-years-worth-of-food
> 
> ...


My father, mother and grandparents taught me to plant what you need to eat fresh from the garden during the growing and put back for winter plus3 or 4 months just in case until the next growing season and along the years stock the pantry and storm pit/canned goods and homemade wine cellar for up to 3 or 4 years of goods.

Course the canned goods and homemade wine bottles stored in the storm pit usually got tapped into a bit during tornado hidey hole campouts as us kids opened jars of peaches ,pears and such and the older folks enjoyed a glass or two of wine as we watched the storm pit TV or listened to the radio.


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## titiana (Sep 17, 2009)

If you look in the "vault" there is a posting called "feeding an extended family for a year" the poster had her parents as well as her daughter and family move in. Listed is how much food storage she used but also a description of her garden and how/what/how much she planted. Perhaps this will be helpful.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

claytonpiano said:


> semi-off topic. How did you get the Stevia seed to germinate? I have been totally unsuccessful!


I've got one seedling-(if it's a real one )out of the half package I ordered. I always germinate on a heating pad made out of Christmas lights. Maybe they need stratification, I'll have to check.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> I started my stevia with a plant from Walmart. It has bloomed twice and the seeds seemed to sprout easily. Mine also sends up new shoots from the mother plant when I keep it watered. It loves that regular watering, usually at least twice a week, and grows easily in a pot on a sunny window sill.
> 
> I did learn this past week that there seems to be more than one variety of Stevia. The kind I have has a small leaf with a pointed end. The kind I saw in a nursery this past week was a longer leaf with a rounded end.
> 
> ...


 I'll have to check wallys. I used to get all kinds of unusual plants from a greenhouse near me, they closed down. I have to look now for a new places. Thanks.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

titiana said:


> If you look in the "vault" there is a posting called "feeding an extended family for a year" the poster had her parents as well as her daughter and family move in. Listed is how much food storage she used but also a description of her garden and how/what/how much she planted. Perhaps this will be helpful.


Thanks, but that is me and I started that thread. That is why I am posting here. As odd as it sounds, you just need more input. The entire survival mentality is a good thing, but I am really interested in hearing what others are doing. The labor intensity of a garden the size that we need is more than I can handle at the moment. Yet, this is the 3rd major crisis we have had. I keep saying that I will be ready the next time, but I have now discovered that you are never truly ready. Hard work is still hard work. Sore muscles are still sore.

Here is what you face in a crisis.....stress, exhaustion, sore muscles and second guessing yourself. I know. We have been there. The time is now to determine exactly what you need, how you will plant and where you will plant. As you can tell from my "vault" post, we had failures and I am still having failures. You can eat from your garden, but like Shrek said......you must have more stored. You simply cannot make it without food also stored. For example, last year was terrible. I got no beans or peas.....first there was the rain and rain and rain and rain. Plants rotted in the field. The replant made some beans, but then there was a crisis with my parents. I tried to pick and get things stored, but it was impossible. Then, there were the tomatoes........rain and more rain......split skins, disease and tiny tomatoes. I usually have plenty for salsa, ketchup, pizza sauce and on and on, but I only have BBQ sauce and spaghetti sauce canned from last year's crops.

With that in mind, is why I have posted this. I can see what we need year after year.....I have been doing this for 40 years.....but having what you need in the middle of a crisis......quite a different thing. The best ideas are what have been suggested, but I really need to be sure that I plant enough every year plus extra for crop failures. Two failed tomato crops and I would be out of tomato products. For long term storage, that is an issue. Then you don't have the luxury of extending with spaghetti sauce, pizza, salsa, picante sauce or ketchup as I am discovering. I am thinking crisis here and not the run to the grocery store. 

Shrek, if you have extra time, could you give a few more details on your storage in the storm pit. How did you keep things from rusting and were these home canned items or store bought? 

A huge thanks to Plowhand for his excellent resource....that is what I was looking for and Google failed me. Maybe I just don't know what words to type in for something like that. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and all the others here as well.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

Also, thought I would share this.......canning is a great idea, but requires lots of time and energy. Dehydrated vegetables work almost as well. Here is what I have discovered with dried beans......it takes twice as much water (initial soak and then cooking water) and lots of time in the middle of a crisis.....so.....I am soaking them now, cooking them and then dehydrating them fully cooked. They reconstitute fairly well and are life savers in the middle of everything. I store them in sealed bags or jars that I have vacuum sealed. I also discovered "Gourmet Food Storage" from Honeyville Grain and Chef Tess. Her total meals in 52 jars are fantastic. I do not buy the freeze dried meats. I simply add my canned meats to her recipes. 

We plant a 100 x 200 foot garden, but it is not enough. We are tripling that size this year. We could not do this without a tractor. The grandkids "help" by hiding the seeds we drop into the row from the chickens. What a back saver that has been!! We have a 100 foot long green house that we are developing into a better set up for raising fish and feeding plants. This has been a 3 year process and we are nowhere near finished. DH is about to start on my rainwater collection for the gardens. Mulch......there is never enough. We haul in free from the city, but there is never enough. I spread the chicken manure, but it is never enough. Not for a 300 x 600 foot garden. That is why soil is so important. In a crisis, the soil must be prepped and ready. You do need to know that the garden does not include grains or winter feed for the chickens. We need another spot for that. Thank God for a tractor!

Greens are critical. We do collect native plants.....creasey greens, dandelion, etc. but when you need vitamins, the greens are critical and take up a lot of space. We use the cut and come again approach for kale and lettuce, but it takes a lot for 15 people. We dehydrate the kale for winter.

Fruit. Not a simple procedure. We have cedar rust on all the apple trees. All of our neighbors do as well. Cedars are everywhere in the forests around us. We get some apples, but not enough. Pears are quite successful. Plums make sometimes, but usually get hit by a late freeze. Blueberries are finally beginning to take off, but we do not have enough for storage even after 5 years of them being in the ground. Our big fruit crop is wild blackberries. They are everywhere, but everyone picks them in our area. Again, there is not enough. Strawberries, we make some, but that is labor intensive as well. Everything is. We plant lots of melon and dehydrate that for winter. I am forced to buy several bushels of apples every fall because we just cannot make enough. Grapes grow fairly well, but again, take a long time to get established to really make any sort of crop for storage.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

So true..when you think you are getting close to ready..something comes along to say..no your not. *sigh*

Dehydrating fan here also. So many ways one can dehydrate without power. 

Another green on my list is Swiss Chard grows good, bugs don't seem to like it (at least here). Doesn't take a lot of foot space so I can tuck extra plants in and around other plants.
Doesn't mind the heat like spinach does.

Sounds like you have a fantastic setup already.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Last years garden and field crops were such an eye opener...........Even my peanuts finally drowned......iIt drove home something my Dad tried to beat in my brain....if you got it save....and plant more than you think you need....and always keep extra feed if you can............coarse we lived on a farm, and had plenty of room, and equipment to work with.......
Year before last I put up over 100 quarts of field peas...shelled peas till 3 am some nights....last year didn't have any, still eatin peas though....I realize now more than ever why we put up so much and planted so much


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Do you have any raised beds? They sure would help with things getting too much rain/water. 15 people to feed, it would be hard to imagine that for me. From the info. I've learned on this site the location and soil diffrences are Everything when it comes to how much one can produce. I have no problems feeding just the 2 of us and always have too much, but that's because I always plant too much and try new things. I have 35+ fruit trees, and will be cutting down a few that just are worthless, but I have to learn on my own. I've had to plant more Cherrys-Tart, now that I've fallen in love with cherry juice-it's far better than grape. Blueberrys are slow and rabbits are an enemy, they demolished my bushes-so no berrys last summer. I've got 2 new Saskatoon blueberry trees in pots right now. The one tree I have started produceing last year, and they are very good so I got more. Just today I was looking around for fish to raise- Tilapia--$7. per 2-3 inch fish! That is insane! I'm rethinking of planting so many potatoes. I have about 200 lbs sprouting right now, and I sure don't need that many to plant when I can buy a 50 lb. bag for 6 to 7 $ all year long. I'll just plant some specialitys. Blue and Yukon Gold. I have issues with the cost of shipping of seeds and sets. So I'm trying to settle with buying local. Yes, swiss chard does grow well here, and we are eating a lot more stir fry. My Parsnips I left in the ground in raised beds made it thru our unusally cold winter, the chard and kale did not. Even the hoophouse was too cold to bother growing in. How about rabbits? Mine did well on hay and apples. Once the apples froze in buckets, I'd toss in 4-5 and give them a mass of hay to burrow in and keep happy. My Rasberrys produce like crazy, and spread, I have Fall Gold, Red and a Black, with a new one to be picked up Sat. from the Conservation Dept. How about Jurslem artichokes, they produce well, but I have not had luck with storage. Turnips store well, keep them slightly moist. I do not dehydrate as much as most have to, simply because things last well in my cement walled ,floored pantry. 15 people, that sure is hard to get over. Just my Dh is picky enough, we don't have to eat the way he likes to. I can make many foods that he prefers from the store simply because he is spoiled-say like Ketsup-he likes one kind. Same with BBQ, I make many kinds, he likes them but always goes back to Open Pit. It's because his mom was an awful cook and they were poor, so I don't complain or push him to eat "my" stuff. But if it was an emergency-you bet ya he would like it.In the last 5 years hes' been hurt at work 2 times, 2 surgerys and 2 broken feet(crushed) in one accident. One things we didn't have a problem with was Food.

ps. I'm ramping up the freezing of veggies-because I've got my 3 large dogs used to eating them as I cook for them.


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

claytonpiano said:


> Also, thought I would share this.......canning is a great idea, but requires lots of time and energy. Dehydrated vegetables work almost as well. Here is what I have discovered with dried beans......it takes twice as much water (initial soak and then cooking water) and lots of time in the middle of a crisis.....so.....I am soaking them now, cooking them and then dehydrating them fully cooked. They reconstitute fairly well and are life savers in the middle of everything. I store them in sealed bags or jars that I have vacuum sealed. I also discovered "Gourmet Food Storage" from Honeyville Grain and Chef Tess. Her total meals in 52 jars are fantastic. I do not buy the freeze dried meats. I simply add my canned meats to her recipes.
> 
> We plant a 100 x 200 foot garden, but it is not enough. We are tripling that size this year. We could not do this without a tractor. The grandkids "help" by hiding the seeds we drop into the row from the chickens. What a back saver that has been!! We have a 100 foot long green house that we are developing into a better set up for raising fish and feeding plants. This has been a 3 year process and we are nowhere near finished. DH is about to start on my rainwater collection for the gardens. Mulch......there is never enough. We haul in free from the city, but there is never enough. I spread the chicken manure, but it is never enough. Not for a 300 x 600 foot garden. That is why soil is so important. In a crisis, the soil must be prepped and ready. You do need to know that the garden does not include grains or winter feed for the chickens. We need another spot for that. Thank God for a tractor!
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a lot on your "plate"! 

I'm not sure what part of NC you are in, but I can offer a few suggestions based on my time living in Durham NC:

1)winter gardening in NC is a great way to go. All the brassicas did very well for us with light cover (row cover material or similar). No bugs or other pests to cause trouble. Get some miner's lettuce started and you'll have it coming up as a free green volunteer in your covered beds with no trouble.

2) if you have clay soil, start a few raised beds using the Square foot gardening mix recipe (peat, vermiculite, compost). You can plant carrots and beets very dense in these beds and get up to 3 crops/year in that climate. You don't need much space to have these crops available on an ongoing basis. Easy on the weeding, fertilizing and watering (drip irrigation on timers is awesome).

3)if you have not already done so, plant/graft some rust resistant varieties of apple - William's Pride and Enterprise are excellent for this. Crabapples generally do well resisting disease, too.

4)trailing thornless blackberries (Triple crown thornless and Chester) are great for maximizing berry production with little effort. They produced a huge amount of fruit each year and try and tip layer like mad. Just give them some compost and a slightly raised planting hill to start if drainage is an issue, but they are much more tolerant of wet feet than raspberries.

5) figs really did well for us along a south facing fence. Lattarula (Italian honey fig) almost always produced two crops per year and are good for fresh eating, drying and preserves. The trees were able to take temps down to 4F and come back to fruit the next year.

6) Goumi bushes (Sweet Scarlet from Raintree) were good additions to the spring berry season. They ripen mid-late May when it is nice to have another berry coming on early. No pests, not much trouble from weeds and they fix nitrogen. One of our favorite preserves.

fyi... none of the fruits listed above required any spraying for disease/pests. Japanese beetles will damage some of the apple leaves, but the trees outgrow the damage easily (same with Jap plums - but those are fickle with frost as you mentioned).


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I can't believe I've never read the sticky. Thanks clayton !!! I know now I really got to speed up on a few things. I have the meat covered and need to focus more on the garden this year. I have it tilled and it looks like a Troy built commercial. I did double the size of it.


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## Marthas_minis (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm curious... Those of you with huge gardens: how much time do you put in daily on average? I'm including watering, weeding, harvesting, pest control & either canning or drying. 

Right now, I have about 3000 sq ft of raised beds garden that I'm using a modified square foot gardening method. I'm tilling up an additional plot of about 4000 sq ft in ground for larger crops. I currently spend 2-3 hours every other day watering, weeding, treating for pests (organic) & harvesting mainly lettuces, Brussels sprouts, onions, etc as needed. 
I suspect my time will increase to every day once I have the additional 4000 sq ft garden in.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I noticed that you put your tomatoes into things like salsa and ketchup and barbecue sauce. You might conducer putting them all into a &#8216;meal&#8217;, like spaghetti sauce for spaghetti and pizza and lasagne. Look also into using a white sauce for pizza and vegetarian lazagne. 

Doing companion planting, maybe you already do this, means that when you weed the tomatoes you are also weeding the lettuce and carrots, so less labor over all. 

If you grow sugar or little beets, you get a double crop, the leaves, then the leaves and the root. Amaranth can give you leaves, then seeds.

I cannot imagine taking care of a garden that size. You are superwoman. We are moving into town with a two lots and I want some careful planning on creating an edible garden. on a small patch.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

My garden is huge, but I keep the rows wide enough for a tractor and the disc to pass to help me with weeding. I spend the time to mulch thickly with wheat straw in crops like tomatoes where I hate weeding in between the cages DH built for me. If it just gets away from me, I have no problem mowing it down and tiling it under at the end of the season. Better to have fewer vegetables and less weed seeds that will sprout.

I had raised beds for years, but now we plant in rows because of the size of the garden and the use of the tractor. Corn is planted with beans and squash like the 3 sisters planting the Indians did. That really helps with the weeds. 

If you are diligent from the beginning, eventually you will have fewer and fewer weeds. When we go on vacation and things go to seed is when you want to scream. Also, remember that there are lots of us working on the garden. My 7 year old grandkids think bugs are cool and they love bug squishing patrol. The 15 year old is great help with a hoe and helps me weed. She planted 30 strawberry plants for me this past week. My daughters are tied up with homeschooling, but help when they can. I truly just love digging in the dirt. It would be tough if I did not. 

How much time in the garden? As long as it takes to hoe out the weeds this time of year. During picking season, it can last as long as 4 hours or more. If I get tired, I quit. Then it is back inside to work on storing the produce. Again, I have a lot of help and own a pea sheller. That labor saving device is worth its weight in gold. 

Also, I do not can tomatoes during the summer. I drop them in garbage bags and freeze them. I work on them during the winter. That way when I place them in hot water, the peels fall off. I let them thaw a little and they go into the food processor. Again, I need work and time savers. Bell peppers are all cut on the Vidalia Onion chopper. They are then dehydrated in the Excalibar. It takes much less time that way and they last forever, well almost. I froze them originally, but finding them in the depths of ice, left overs and other vegetables became a real pain. This way they are ready immediately after they rehydrate.....easier to measure out, etc. 

I've never planted lettuce with tomatoes, but that is a great idea that I will do when the tomatoes go in the ground. I want to try that! Thanks for that tip!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I mulch what I have to which is very little, because of mass planting-with the straw that we place around the foundation of this 100+year old farmhouse. Last year I even tried a cucmber trellis on an angle with greens underneath. The greens did not get enough light. Can't do the 3 sisters thing with corn eather, not enough light. I do not use a hoe, but a scuffle hoe in small places, a winged weeder in real tight places and an antique push hoe, which slices off weeds under the top of the soil about 14 inches wide. We do not eat any green peppers only sweets and the onions, sweets are our fav. but they do not store well. I'm planting 6 different types of supposed "sweets"this year, to find what works for me. I cannot imagine dehdrateing Onions , heck I'm just getting used to cooking with them, and I certinaly won't eat one RAW. Drying in the EX is done outside, and we get terrible hummity in the mid summer.

Oh, I cannot tell you how many hrs. I spend in the gardens because I harvest many "weeds' for our buns, me and even the cows. I have to rotate what I do because of my broken back and the nerve damage. So I kinda do a wandering/sitting/hoeing/digging,/reading/,,,,,


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## stonemovies (Apr 7, 2014)

The backyard Homestead has been my Bible ISBN 9781603421386. It's amazing. Well worth retail price, but I'm sure you can find it used cheaper. Tells you how to get the most out of your land year after year. Also I remember reading in a different book that rabbits are supposed to be the most economical meat source on a farm due to how fast they reproduce, mature, and their minimal/ not-so-selective diet. Hope this helps.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

stonemovies said:


> The backyard Homestead has been my Bible ISBN 9781603421386. It's amazing. Well worth retail price, but I'm sure you can find it used cheaper. Tells you how to get the most out of your land year after year. Also I remember reading in a different book that rabbits are supposed to be the most economical meat source on a farm due to how fast they reproduce, mature, and their minimal/ not-so-selective diet. Hope this helps.


HI, welcome to HT.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Marthas_minis said:


> I'm curious... Those of you with huge gardens: how much time do you put in daily on average? I'm including watering, weeding, harvesting, pest control & either canning or drying.


Back when I did the traditional row garden I used to spend a hour or two daily weeding and checking for bugs, etc. With my new system I can plant it and forget it. The only garden time after planting is harvesting.

I plant a little every week so it doesn't all come ripe at the same time. Once it starts, I get what I will use fresh, then dehydrate the rest. I usually keep the dehydrator going every day or two during gardening season. I dehydrate everything I can possibly dry to save storage space. I braid a few dozen to keep fresh then I can put over a dozen dehydrated large onions in a quart jar. I can use plastic jars too, and mylar bags. 

I love the new system cause it's cleaner, uses less water (self watering so one less thing I have to do), so much less work and space than the old system. I grow to feed 15. They don't live here, but they "shop" here. lol


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

Cookie2 said:


> I'm allergic to sugar beets (and probably wouldn't be able to refine sugar from them anyway) and I'm allergic to bee's wax (there is always bee's wax in honey so I no longer eat honey). Unless I could grow enough sugar cane, find a source for molasses or gather maple syrup (unlikely given my local), I'm pretty much without sugar.


Think about malted grains. This can give you a sweet syrup like sorghum molasses. Very tasty. The spent malt can be used as food for animals, or even people.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

Don't forget sprouts as a green vegetable during slack growing times.

Don't forget you can easily dehydrate cooked (boiled) ground meat.

And try remanufacturing canning flats for re-use. I can't do this, but surely someone can can







some water - some with new flats, some with re-used, and some with used flats that have had rubber latex sap dribbled and spread around the old seals, and let dry. If they can, please report back the results.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Don't forget fruit trees, nuts and perennial vines. They will give for yrs and yrs with little labor on your part. We use a lot of fruits and nuts. 

I don't much care for the guides on how much to plant. They leave out some things we eat a lot of and suggest way more of things we don't eat much. We will use a LOT of sweet potatoes and regular potatoes, but ONE squash plant will give more than we need for a couple of yrs. Lots of tomatoes, green beans, onions, sweet peppers, a few hot peppers, a little lettuce, forget cabbage, beets, eggplant, turnips, broccoli, cauliflower and that ilk because we won't eat enough to bother with. You just have to figure out how much of something your family WILL eat and how much to expect from so many plants IN YOUR AREA. A single tomato plant can out produce 6 if you have the right climate vs a short growing season. In MS I harvested a tomato plant from spring till Thanksgiving one yr, but in Colorado, I was lucky to get any to ripen at all.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

elkhound said:


> i can see us eating more turnips too along with the green tops as well.
> 
> its going to be adjustment for all of us...more some than others ...some less than others.
> 
> ...


Once you look at the nutrient components of turnips and the greens and the ease at which they grow and how many seasons the can grow you will see that turnip is one of the best..and we eat greens or turnips nearly every day


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Our strength is in making everything work double or triple duty..including the people...Lol. For instance you might not want goats for dairy since you are lactose intolerant..but the milk can be fed to pigs who can make meat...we use our goats for meat milk compost and to help feed other animals...everything is used. We make cheese..the whey feeds chicks and pigs..we use manure to grow veggies..all of our meat comes from goat chicken rabbit hog or wild..my goats can eat much of their diet from our land because we have grasses..grow legume hay nearly year around..our rule is what can it provide and then the follow on question is and what else...and then what else...by making each thing work in that manner you can be self sufficient..one other thing is...you have to change the way in which we think about eating..some things just aren't needed. Also remember self sufficient doesnt mean having everything you want..it means having everything you need to survive


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

claytonpiano said:


> Now, I am looking at this from the assumption that I will need to raise all of my food. I understand food storage, but keep thinking about long term. Our ancestors had more room to hunt and farm. I need some help thinking about what it would be like today to be forced into self-sufficiency.


I keep thinking about this as we get our garden going this year. Somehow gardening has gotten much more difficult than we when had a big garden 'for fun', every lost plant hits harder. Birds just plucked most of our baby peas out and an infestation of pillbugs demolished our spinach bed before we even saw the seeds germinate. If we were in a desperate financial situation or a SHTF situation it'd be bad, but we're off to the garden store on Friday instead. 

So again thinking about tough and productive veggies like kale, chard and turnips. Winter squash not only keeps a long time without having to can or dehydrate, and is high in vitamin C, something lacking in a lot of winter veg. A big Blue Hubbard can feed a lot of people. Squash seeds are easy to keep. What plants are easier to keep seeds from will be important and what can grow without being to fussy. We let some Red Devil's Tongue lettuce go to seed 3 years ago, we're still getting volunteers all over the garden! That's a tough plant. I see us eating a lot fewer tomatoes and peppers as our growing season is shorter and they need weeks indoors. Starting seeds indoors will be harder for us.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

It is a year later and I have taken several of the suggestions from this thread. We have planted 24 blueberry plants, more pears, raspberries, blackberries, peaches, apricots and lots more asparagus. DH has more than doubled the garden space and we found someone who brings us free wood chips whenever he is in this area. We have gotten 8 dump truck loads so far. We are mulching the trees with the chips and the chickens are enjoying spreading them for us in the new garden area that will be planted in a couple of weeks. They are adding manure to the aged manure we have already spread with the wood chips. 

We have learned to butcher our own hog. That was much easier than we thought and I think would be doable on a long term basis. 

I planted enough sweet potatoes last year to have enough left over to help get things started this year. I have "put them to bed" in the green house for sprouting. I also invested in perennial onions. They don't taste as well to us as regular onions, but we should always have a supply. 

Thanks to all who shared in this thread from a year ago. It was fun reading back through it and remembering the things I learned from you.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

That's great progress! Nice job. Appreciate your update.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I was thinking about planting a couple rows of Dental Floss in Montana....


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

One must remember that people in the past didn't eat so high up on the food chain. Meat wasn't an everyday feature on the menu. Root vegetables and home canned tomatoes/fruit were most commonly used. You didn't just get a hankering for something and run to the store like today. I know people who don't have a speck of food in their homes and run to the store daily for what they feel like making for supper...assuming that they just didn't eat out which they mainly do. I know several people who haven't eaten a vegetable-literally- in years...even take the tomato off their fast food burger!

How many of you have ever even eaten a rutabaga-turnip-parsnip? We grow them all. Food that can be stored easily in the ground over winter. Common folk ate plain simple food with lots of homemade bread to fill the cracks. Soups and stews usually on the menu. No strawberries in Jan. Oranges were treats. Fresh vegetables in winter were scarce. Now we have better way to supply ourselves with grow tunnels, dehydrating, freezing so with planning you can have a more varied diet

Now is the time to start an orchard if you haven't already. Fruit is already too expensive plus one of the most highly sprayed crops. Apples being the worst on all lists. That was the very first thing we did when moving to MO. Plus grape vines, raspberries, strawberries, elderberries, etc. I suggest Vernon Barnes and Son Nursery. $7-10 trees that really grow. Call (931)668-8576 for no-frills catalog. Highly Recommended by me. Get a copy of the Gardens Alive! catalog for organic products and remember that many crops rely on bees for pollination. On inspection our two hives of bees have already done a super job of pollinating our apples(30 trees). Honey is always a good barter item, too.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Vosey said:


> ... I noticed the beautiful leaves. I told my husband, 'If we were starving, we'd be eating these". They were excellent, good sauteed and held up in soup like kale does. The brussel sprout flowers were excellent too.
> 
> ...


We tried eating broccoli leaves this past summer. Our broccoli made very small heads with quite a few side shoots which were good, but didn't really give us the quantity of broccoli for the freezer we were hoping for. 

So, we, too, decided to try the leaves. We prepared them much like we would have collard greens. They were indeed tasty. But the problem we had was they gave us "the wind" something fierce!! I don't know if there might have been ways of cooking them that would have avoided that or not. 

That said, we eat things like turnip greens with the roots quite often, one of our favorites. We have collards on occasion as well as perhaps some mustard greens and even rutabaga greens on rare occasions. Never had that kind of reaction with them.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

claytonpiano said:


> semi-off topic. How did you get the Stevia seed to germinate? I have been totally unsuccessful!


I haven't tried it myself (yet) but am told that stevia is not difficult to propagate using cuttings. 

My sister-in-law had some stevia in her herb garden last year and a few leaves of that dropped in with the various kinds of mint tea when brewing gave a nice hint of sweetness. 

Passing by the herb garden, one of the common things I would do was to take about 4 or 5 mint leaves and one stevia leaf and chew on them. 1:1 was way too much stevia for just garden browsing. It's quite strong.

I've wondered whether a person could press the leaves for whatever liquid could be had (or steam them?) but don't know if the sweetness would be in the liquid or not. Lots of things for me to find out, too.  Someday...


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

7thswan said:


> .... I do not use a hoe, but a scuffle hoe in small places, a winged weeder in real tight places and an antique push hoe, which slices off weeds under the top of the soil about 14 inches wide. ...


I do use a hoe but rarely for weeding. I tend to use the regular hoe for things like marking out rows and covering the seeds, or for some hilling perhaps.

The old wheel hoe does a great job of cultivating.

But I think my favorite tool is the stirrup hoe. (I think that's the same thing as you're referring to as the scuffle hoe.) Wonderful tool. I didn't have one until just this last year but it was really one of my go-to tools. It can do an amazing amount of work in a very short time... if you don't let the weeds get too big before trying to use it, that is.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Spinner said:


> ... I grow to feed 15. They don't live here, but they "shop" here. lol


LOL!!! It's funny how that works, isn't it??

My little great nephew gave us the most wonderful compliment last summer. He was only about 2 years old and really didn't talk much. But we had just picked tomatoes and had put them on the picnic table to sort them out. He was sitting on the swing about 100' away and happened to eye those tomatoes. That little guy was off like a flash making a beeline towards those tomatoes! He picked up one about the size of an apple and started chomping on it very much like one would eat an apple. Messy indeed. But by the time he went after the second one, there were a few pictures. It pleased me to know that even the little ones were enjoying the food we were growing. And you KNOW they were pretty regular about showing up every few days while that garden was producing.  I loved it!! Kinda made all of the sweat and achy muscles oh so worth it.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Bellyman said:


> But I think my favorite tool is the stirrup hoe. (I think that's the same thing as you're referring to as the scuffle hoe.) Wonderful tool. I didn't have one until just this last year but it was really one of my go-to tools. It can do an amazing amount of work in a very short time... if you don't let the weeds get too big before trying to use it, that is.


No, a stirrup hoe looks like a stirrup on the bottom of a saddle.











A scuffle hoe has a single head (though they come in a variety of shapes....triangle, diamond, half moon, etc). Mine is a diamond head with a thin, light handle that has a T on the end. You hold the T end with one hand, and let it slide thru your other hand like a pool cue stick. You can absolutely FLY down a row weeding very close to the plants.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> No, a stirrup hoe looks like a stirrup on the bottom of a saddle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aah!! I stand corrected. 

I'll have to check one of these scuffle hoes out. Sounds like a neat tool to have. 

Thanks, Andy!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You'll love it. Trust me. Best hoe I ever owned.

Instead of the typical chopping motion of a regular hoe, these simply glide along the ground, clipping the weeds off either right at ground level, or just below. The handle is long enough that you don't have to bend over to use it...you can stand completely upright, and sorta push/pull on the T handle end. The diamond is razor sharp on all 4 edges, so you clip weeds coming and going. I've never tried the other shapes, as this is the first one I ever bought. Got it from Earth Tools when I was up there picking up my tiller some years back.

You DO have to get the weeds when they are just couple inches high or less....not meant to do them when they get big and tough. But you fly down the row so fast, it's 'almost' a joy to weed.


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## NEfarmgirl (Jan 27, 2009)

I try to plant enough to get through 2 years each year, but the weather and the land here have not cooperated. Before we moved I easily was able to plant and harvest what we needed without a problem on a small peice of land. We moved to our acreage, and have battle tons of beetles, the weather and I think the soil is still needing a lot of tlc. I don't follow suggestions of how many plants per person, because we eat a lot of veggies and grow a very large variety. I end up planting more than suggested to be safe. If we have a good harvest it means we have extra. 

I am debating trying a straw bale garden this year. We are thinking about putting a layer of cardboard over the garden area and placing bales over it. Once the plants are done producing, we can break the bales up and spread it over the cardboard. Throw the leaves, grass clippings, and aged manure over that. Next spring I am hoping we can work it into the soil and maybe have it in better condition. 

We have pear and peach trees and are planting raspberries, blueberries, grapes (again! my son accidently sprayed them with round up last year), more herbs and I am learning what weeds we can eat that are in the area. Apple trees have not survived here because of cedar rust. There were two trees when we moved and we planted two more, but all died off.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

NEfarmgirl,

Have you gotten a soil sample analyzed? You might have said but I don't remember. 

Last year, I had the opportunity to have a garden in a place where most of the farmers are dumping manure and lime on the land 'cause that's just what farmers do there. I took a composite sample and found the soil pH at 8.1. Adding lime would have made it worse. At least with the sample, I had a place to start in making the soil better.


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## NEfarmgirl (Jan 27, 2009)

That is something that I want to get done this year asap. We have not added lime to the soil, just a lot of organic matter like grass clippings, leaves, manure and compost material from the house. The soil looks much better than when we started; it was light colored and clumpy and now it is dark and is very loose. We have noticed a lot more worms in it too which is a good sign. I figure if the soil needs more work, the straw bales will give us another year to work on it. We have plenty of space to put them.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

TnAndy said:


> You'll love it. Trust me. Best hoe I ever owned.
> 
> Instead of the typical chopping motion of a regular hoe, these simply glide along the ground, clipping the weeds off either right at ground level, or just below. The handle is long enough that you don't have to bend over to use it...you can stand completely upright, and sorta push/pull on the T handle end. The diamond is razor sharp on all 4 edges, so you clip weeds coming and going. I've never tried the other shapes, as this is the first one I ever bought. Got it from Earth Tools when I was up there picking up my tiller some years back.
> 
> You DO have to get the weeds when they are just couple inches high or less....not meant to do them when they get big and tough. But you fly down the row so fast, it's 'almost' a joy to weed.


Yes, that's it! They used to be called a Hula Hoe(1970's?). My wheeled hoe does the same thing without the "shuffle" motion, slices off weeds about 1 inch under the soil.


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## Red_Leg (Apr 13, 2015)

plowhand said:


> from the book...........Southern Crops.....copyrighted 1947..........put out through folks associated with the Progressive Farmer magazine..................they advocated that a "Master Farmer" should "live at Home"...a plan that commercial farming threw to the wayside.....but is useful today and maybee the future..............
> 
> Here is some examples from the South Carolina live-at-home plan
> family of 5....2 adults.3 children
> ...


Looks like the book is a great resource. Just ordered a copy.


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## NEfarmgirl (Jan 27, 2009)

That does look more realistic. Some lists I have seen aren't anywhere close to feeding a person through the summer.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> There is an old lady on Utube ( 90 something ) she does a series called "Great depression cooking". She shows meals that they ate back then and tells stories from her own experience during that time. It's really interesting to watch and there are several recipes that I have used.
> 
> Here's one
> 
> [YOUTUBE]3OPQqH3YlHA&list=TLr96nDwxl-AIsn_dci9koL234Pmf7JqFo[/YOUTUBE]


I love her videos. I was sad when she passed.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

claytonpiano said:


> I have been pondering this question as I begin my garden season this year. One of my daughters and her family, having their house destroyed and moving back in, has me thinking as I watch my pantry goods shrink exponentially. I found this....
> 
> http://www.wellfedhomestead.com/how...-your-garden-to-provide-a-years-worth-of-food
> 
> ...


That's simple, YOU CAN'T DO IT ON YOUR ACERAGE.

You need at least 5 acres per person MINIMUM for a completely agrarian based existence/survival, DOUBLE OCCUPANCY... 
That's 10 acres for just you and the wife/significant other.

And this depends ENTIRELY in the growing zone you live in.

Some places it takes 135 acres per person.

------------

Now, in the event of a total collapse,
You CAN sustain with LOCAL TRADE trade on as little as 5 acres.

You will need fire wood, that can also be combined with nut trees, fruit trees, dried animal dung, ect.
Heating will be your #1 problem outside of food, water and shelter.
It's by far the #1 expense., since what we now call 'Comfortable' is actually very wasteful...

In days past, homesteaders/mountain men often kept livestock indoors to help heat the living quarters, and keep the animals safe from predators/accidents.
Today, no one would even consider that...

Livestock presents another problem, they have to be fed, watered, and if they can't be used for work animals, they MUST produce meat, milk, wool to pay their way.
Hay/Forage is another concern with livestock. 
Proper FENCEING is mandatory BEFORE you try to raise livestock, and that's harder than it sounds.
I've beat fence post holes in the ground for nearly 50 years, and I've put up hay for nearly 50 years,
It's labor intensive and time consuming...
The every other day walks along the fence line for maintenance even gets old.

A Greenhouse is a great thing to have, and super productive for the square footage, a real asset!

Rabbits in particular will add protein to the diet, along with producing the second best green house/starter fertilizer you can hope to have.
They also introduce CO2 into the green house for the plants, provide some of the heating for the greenhouse, while consuming green house and yard/garden waste.

Rabbit hutches over your compost pile is a fertilizer machine!
Throw in a hand full of alfalfa once in a while, keep it damp, and that compost pile will produce like crazy!

A large tank of water in the middle of a green house is VERY handy to have.
I prefer concrete over metal.
Since every greenhouse has a 'Tables' for the plants, racks over the tank are a perfect way to do things.
You have a water source handy,
The tank collects radiant heat in the daytime, sheds that heat at night, stabilizing the temperature in the greenhouse.

I have a solar thermal panel hooked up to mine to heat the water even more in the daytime, I use it so I can produce VERY early in the season, maintaining germination/growing temperatures as early as late February, which gives me a real jump on the growing season. 
We all know the FIRST produce of the season sells for a LOT more than later, commonly timed produce.. (Cash money never hurts anything!)

You can also grow fish in your tank. I don't eat my fish, they are there to produce fish crap, the BEST fertilizer you can have in a greenhouse...
Carp/Coy are particularly tolerant to muddy, fertilizer rich water.

If you really think there is the slightest possibility that nearly 8 billion people won't trade,
Then you will have to produce sugars.
This could be fruit trees rather than decoratives,
It could be sugar beets,
It could be bees (honey).

You will also have to find a source for salt...
Long term preservation of food without salt is nearly impossible.
Even proper 'Jerking' requires salt...

"Sustainability" is nearly impossible for modern man.
He simply doesn't have the skills or ambition to do the work required, even if he had the skills.

--------------

Now, if you are talking an economical melt down,
Which is VERY possible,
Then you need to consider what LOCAL TRADE will do for you, and plan in that direction.

A local network you can trade with, so you don't have to grow/make absolutely EVERYTHING YOURSELF will be a good thing to have developed ahead of time.

If you don't live 'Urban' then you know a guy with old tractors, cars, trucks, ect. That is a source for spare parts you WILL need.

You probably know a guy that welds & has machine tools.
Someone that can make a 'Rube Goldburg' contraption or two, and can repair your equipment when needed.

*IF* you really want to 'Prepare' for the worst,
Or at least take control of the bills coming in at present,
Then consider electrical as 'Essential'.

A guy with power, that can run tools, weld, will have people beating a path to his shop with things to build/repair.
And with batteries, get something done at night with lights will prevail in the event of long term power grid failure.

Water will be an issue.
Solar panels will allow you to move water easily, taking a HUGE chore off your back.
With solar you can keep INDOOR toilets, which is a biggie in my book!
No pressurized water, no flush toilets...
The pump simply runs during 'Peak Sun' hours when the panels are producing their maximum.
The panels/pump fills a tank, gravity does the rest.

Just some things for the 'Gloom & Doom' & 'Instant Collapse' types should think about...
I've been off grid, power and water, for 12 years now,
And we have EVERYTHING, just do things a little different...

The fridge, freezer, lights and everything else are 110 volts.
We do laundry in 'Peak Sun' or run the generator.
We pump our water during Peak Sun, which requires some extra tanks to get us through the night, showers, cooking, ect. using a lot of water.

We use high efficiency lighting, light costs money, so high efficiency makes sense and saves money (no matter if you are off grid or not!).

Heat costs money, and the little woman likes warm floors,
So radiant floor heat so there isn't any 'Wasted' heat.
No forced heat, since heat RISES, it only makes sense to start the heat out at floor level and let it naturally rise.

Having those two valves by the front door help also, I don't care what it costs...
I have radiant floor heat tubes under the patio to melt off ice/snow.
This cost is off set by the broken hip I don't have from dealing with snow/ice several times a year.
The little woman likes parking on the patio when the weather is bad, so she doesn't have a broken hip either... 

Super insulated living quarters.
Insulation will have you spending less money to heat, and heat is a major expense in labor or money (or both!).
Cool in the summer, warm in the winter.

If you REALLY think things are going to crash, 
Then spend/build like you mean it!


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## Rosepath (Feb 18, 2011)

JH, that was an excellent summation, with so many good ideas!
Makes me proud to be a fellow Hoosier with someone who has things figured out


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

Jeephammer, where did you find the 5 acres per person number? Just curious. Not doubting you at all, but wonder. My ag agent says we have plenty for chickens, cow, pig and vegetables, but I think he is wrong as you have pointed out. The issue is feed for the animals. 

I read somewhere that pigs can live on whey and some pasture alone. I'm thinking, maybe, but wonder how skinny they would be!!


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

claytonpiano, if you had a couple tons of acorns to add to the whey and pasture, that might work! In Ireland and Spain, they have returned to pasturing pigs in woodlands so they can forage, and eat acorns. Any oaks at your place?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

claytonpiano said:


> Jeephammer, where did you find the 5 acres per person number? Just curious. Not doubting you at all, but wonder. My ag agent says we have plenty for chickens, cow, pig and vegetables, but I think he is wrong as you have pointed out. The issue is feed for the animals.
> 
> I read somewhere that pigs can live on whey and some pasture alone. I'm thinking, maybe, but wonder how skinny they would be!!


Ad for local craigs list has pasture raised pork 6.00 per lb hanging weight.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

There were oaks. Came down in last year's ice storm.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

About Acreage Vs. Production figures,

The ONLY place I've seen that takes into account not only the growing zone you live in, but the SOIL FERTILITY & WATER AVAILABILITY is the WHO (World Health Org).

Since disease is a direct result of water availability, they track water,
And since poor soil won't grow nutritious food, they track soil fertility,
Along with the usual factors you often read about.

Zone 3-4, with limestone filtered water availability, I rate pretty high...'
Add in high soil fertility, long growing period, and an average 60 inches of rain per year, and we can make land produce quite well.

Someone in the high desert, or high planes with less water and lesser soils, shorter growing season, harder winters wouldn't score as well,
Someone down in the swamps with super fertile ground, lots of rain, and a nearly unlimited growing season would score MUCH higher...

A CAREFULLY MANAGED 5 acres would produce enough to sustain all the needs of ONE ADULT in my area.
That's clothing, housing, water, food, ect.

I'm not about to wear clothes made of grass fibers and I'm not about to process, spin, weave and sew those grass fibers into cloths...
I'm not about to take 2 years to tan animal hides using tannic acid extracted in low quantities from dead leaves or tree bark...
I'm not about to live in a hole in the ground until I can grow enough trees or stack enough rocks for a shelter...

My acreage is as productive as the work in put into it,
And it's designed to produce INCOME, not raw materials.

Yes, I can a lot of food, mostly because I grew up on home canned or fresh food and I don't care for the crap on the store shelves or the fast food joints.
I've also spent time in the so called 'Food Processing' places, and if you saw what goes on in those places, you wouldn't eat it... 
(I won't! And I ate bugs & bark in military survival school!)

The 'FIRST' produce of the season sells for MUCH more money,
The best reason for a green house/hot beds/spring boxes I can think of.
'Upscale' clientele will pay through the nose for the first produce of the season, so develop customers to that end.

'Pretty' produce sells for more throughout the season.
I really don't care if my produce has 'Spots' or doesn't look 'Perfect', it's still perfectly edible and once it's in the canning jar, you won't know the difference anyway,
So if someone wants to pay double for 'Pretty', I'm perfectly fine with charging them double...

The next level is farmers markets.
This is wholesale prices, since I don't intend to waste my time selling to the random person that stops into a booth...

What I don't sell, Or home can, I give to food banks.
I don't believe in waste, and if I can't sell it or use it, someone should get some good out of it...

Food banks give TAX CREDITS as charitable donations.
I'd give it away to them anyway, but the tax credits are FREE to them and it helps me out...

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Also, think DECORATIVES.
Nothing like the 'Soccer Mom' in her SUV and blabbering on a cell phone paying $20 to $50 (IN CASH!) for day lilies, lavender, and what ever else catches her eye...
Since she's going to take it home and kill it, she'll be back for more!
Nothing like a serial killer of plants! They just keep coming back over and over again! :hysterical:

Think ODD BALL, stuff you don't normally get locally.
Along with decoratives, think lavender, phenol, mint, bay leaf, peppers, stuff that comes in on a truck or airplane...
You can grow that stuff, make a HUGE profit since you aren't paying shipping costs, and still underbid the guys that ship it into the area.

Got a dark spot that is wet and gets little sunlight,
Think MUSHROOMS/GINSING! A HUGE SELLER!
Everything from truffles to ginseng like darker, wet places...
You would not believe what ginseng or truffles sell for!

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Look into an 'At Home' business to write things off your taxes...
I machine/weld at home on a side business, a constant source of income.
If things turned REALLY BAD, everyone will be looking to have things 'Fixed'...
I'm set up, OFF GRID, to do that work.

-----------

There is A LOT you can do with 5 acres,
And if the 'Worst' happens, say another 'Great Depression', you will be ahead of the curve,
Family that shows up is a ready work force,
While having the equipment to do the job will already be on site...

With the economy working, everything you produce for CASH is money in your pocket to be invested, or to help out with current bills.
It's the LAZY types that won't get out and work a garden,
That INSIST on working HARDER and not SMARTER that have issues in the current economy.

Using something as simple as CARDBOARD around your plants to keep the weeds down so you don't have to spend a ton of time weeding or buying/spraying weed killer is cheap and simple...

Growing in RAISED beds keeps you & yours from stomping down the ground, compacting it,
And you can keep super fertile ground (Compost/fertilizer) up away from the yard/weeds.
Raised beds means you don't have to bend over, making what weeding/tending you have to do from breaking your back.

Harvest of things like potatoes is SIMPLE with raised beds, you simply dump out the growing media, sort out the potatoes, use a lift to put the soil back in the raised bed, and cover it until next year...

Growing barrels keep your produce up and away from the bugs, weeds, stomping feet...
A plastic barrel is $5 and makes MUCH more produce vs. square footage footprint than ground beds,
And again, you keep your super fertilized soil away from weeds...

Raised beds/barrels allow you to tailor the growing soil for SPECIFIC PLANTS, so you get MUCH more produce for the square footage you are taking up.

-------

My wife sells WEEDS!
Yes, these people will buy WEEDS!

Broom sage, dried weeds, cat tails, lavender stems all braided into 'Decoratives'.
The home interior places can't get enough of that stuff, and some of it sells for up to $300 for WEEDS!

Lavender oil and Lavender leaves/stems go into all kinds of things, like soap, pillows, ect.
Lavender sells for more than pot did when I was in high school, and we can't grow enough of it...
With 3 collage towns within a 50 mile radius, lavender ANYTHING sells as fast as we can produce it!

Lavender is a WEED, it comes back year after year, grows anywhere and upscale housewives can't get enough of it...

---------

When I picked out a boiler for the radiant floor heat,
I wanted an INDOOR unit.
I picked a dual fuel unit, 
It will burn Propane if you don't want to fool with it,
But it will burn wood pellets or corn...

Now, I have crop land that I lease out, so corn is pretty much free to me.
I do suggest you watch where you dump the fine, white ash from burning corn or you will be mowing three times a week!

If you dump it in your garden soil, be prepared to pick produce 3 times a week!

(I also have a open face wood burner for 'Back Up' that I've only lit a fire in a few times...
It's more for decoration than for heating the home, but it's there if I need it)

-------------

Now, I have limestone deep wells on the property.
Limestone is HARD WATER, but limestone is also a nearly perfect filter...
We can actually sell well water!
Yes, people will buy WELL WATER thinking it's better than other water...

-----------

If it came down to it, I have limestone filtered water,
I have corn,
With some heat and a cooker, I could sell corn by the gallon, which will ALWAYS be in demand...

-----------

The 'Trick' is to just stay away from the TV, keep busy.
If you put the hours in, work SMARTER, you will be fine.
The idea of CASH is for a cushion, and for INFRASTRUCTURE.
I'm ALWAYS building, modifying, updating...

*IF* something happens, I'll at least start with WORKING , UPDATED hardware/tools,
If nothing happens, The extra cash doesn't hurt a thing, and we live easier with some cash on hand... Instead of living hand to mouth...


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