# country vs city: can you really be prepared in the city



## silvergirl (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi,
I am curious as to what you folks out there really think about the effectiveness of even trying to be "prepared" within a city... :viking: I don't see much hope for city dwellers at all, in the event of the big-V or any other prolonged, major disaster.... 

When I think of true preparedness, particularly in the event of a complete meltdown of society (for whatever reason - zombie hordes included!), I can't conceive of it being possible to truly be prepared within the limitations of a city. When DH and I realized that the clock was counting down - peak oil, the big V, terrorist incursions - we made some radical changes to our lifestyle... We started working with farm animals - even on our tiny 3/4 ac lot - chickens and goats... and began working toward getting a larger chunk of land under us, so that we could develop a farm lifestyle... A relatively few short years later, we've got sheep, goats, a donkey, chickens, bees, and a rough but useable bit of land... We're still feed dependent because we don't have the land or equipment for hayfields or cornfields, but we're closer to the mark. It seems to me the only ones who are going to make it through a true meltdown, will be those who have established a rural lifestyle for themselves and gained experience with working the land, raising food, and tending animals...

Opinions? 

(Wait! I think I left my flame proof undies at home... Ooops. I hit the send button... Oh, well...)

Silvergirl


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Really city, like apartments, I don't see anything more than short term. Suburbanites could do quite well, especially if they work together - everyone on the block or for several blocks. Depends on knowledge & resources available. 

I depend on electricity for water, propane for cooking, feed store for animal food, grocery & farmers' market for people food, gas station for transportation. I'd have to work a heck of a lot harder in a really bad situation - don't know how we would manage if it was TEOTWAWKI. It would be a total life style change.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

That is such a variable answer, I think. Some suburbs were built over wonderful farmland and others were built over land that barely grows anything. Some were built with geography that lends itself to security, others wide open and impossible to secure. 

So the suburbs, if there are enough people who are already doing the right things, like gardening for food and so on, with the right geography, not a huge temptation and with people who get on board could survive. Any weak link in that chain means bad things one way or another. After all, what do you do if 20% of the residents say they don't want to do security, work as hard as you or for some reason are unable to take part?

In the city I actually think it is equally variable. I live at the border of the urban/suburban demarcation. Where I'm at was the suburbs long ago, now border of city. 2 rivers join in my backyard and an overflow lake that draws massive wildlife just to the side. This is an area that doesn't draw a lot of notice. From the freeway in the distance, people wonder how in the world you get to those nice houses down there (I know because everyone who finds out where I live says the same thing). Of course, the hood is right outside our little slice of heaven but we have 1 one road in with the 2 rivers bordering it, so easy to secure.

In the city proper, the older brownstones have gardens inside this big yard that takes the center of the block, those are good spots. In high occupancy buildings, a good prepper could go un-noticed for a long time if they didn't leave or let out light. For a long enough time to let things die down and then leave.

I think it is super variable and I wouldn't count any situation out without evaluating it from a personal level. I think the key is prepping to _your_ situation correctly. 

Don't you think?


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

I think that anyone who lives in an urban area eventually will not be living in an urban area after TSHTF.


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## bookfarmer (Jan 1, 2009)

There are all kinds of people right now who live in survival-type situations in the city. Old buildings are occupied illegally. As are subways and other underground tunnels. There's a whole different world existing in the cities that most people are unaware of.

So the question becomes, could ordinary people like us survive in the city if......? And the answer is probably "no" because they haven't developed the survival skills that people in the underground culture have by necessity.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

When my sister and fam were working overseas in third world urban areas, the first step in evacuation training was basically being able to read the future and make a decisive move to get out of Dodge before things fell apart. If you hesitate you are SOL. If you stop the car you are SOL.

This means meanwhile you keep an ear to the ground on what's going on, the gossip on the mucky mucks, who's moving where, trends, etc. you have to be able to read the wind. 

My sister did have one evacuation incident, the military's ammo dump caught fire and things started exploding--it sounded like a coup had started(which there had been rumors) so after the first few explosions she grabbed the kids and the bags by the door and drove to the airport(from hearing the first shot and being out the door was literally less than a minute, and the evac plan is to fly out). The ammo dump was near the airport, so it was quickly discovered it was NOT a coup and people worked to get people to safety from exploding rockets and stuff--but the point is it SOUNDED like a coup throughout the city(remember there is no local tv news to calm people down) and it was very touch and go on keeping a lid on civil panic AND heavy handed gov response for days. They ended up not flying out, but lived at the airport for a week--their skills were needed to deal with helping out(flying in things, people, relaying accurate news, keeping the airport open), but a separate plane was kept ready and guarded to fly out instantly(sis also has a pilot's license). The country was indeed taken over by a coup not long after my sister etc ended their term there. Just describing a real life situation where an INSTANT decision had to be made, if she had holed up in her house she and her kids were in FAR more danger(even though they had food and supplies).

I don't think some people appreciate the power of civil unrest. :shrug: we joke about zombies, but there are a LOT of people out there who will throw a serious tantrum when things go south. Sure you can survive in an urban/suburban environment, grow food, scavenge etc, or defend it once the zombies have kicked the bucket and numbers are reduced, but ground zero, day one? no way, your best bet(cuz it is a gamble) is getting out with hopefully a nice camping kit.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Long term, the urban areas won't be unpleasant places to live. Some semblance of security will resume. 

However in the short term, you've got millions of people there who are utterly dependent upon the rural areas. All the farmer's markets and horse carts that still remain can't feed them. I wouldn't want to live near 5 million starving people.

William Jennings Bryan was quoted as saying, "Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic; but destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country."


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

bookfarmer, true what you post, BUT those underground survivalists are STILL dependent on the system to live - they dumpsterdive for food, tap illegally into the electric/cable systems, etc. In a true SHTF situation there will be NO food in those dumpsters, no steam heat from the vents to keep them warm, possibly no electricity for them to tap into. Then what do they do? Just like the top-siders, they start panicing and looking for food and shelter IN THE CITY!


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## Kari (Mar 24, 2008)

silvergirl said:


> Hi,
> I am curious as to what you folks out there really think about the effectiveness of even trying to be "prepared" within a city... :viking: I don't see much hope for city dwellers at all, in the event of the big-V or any other prolonged, major disaster....
> 
> When I think of true preparedness, particularly in the event of a complete meltdown of society (for whatever reason - zombie hordes included!), I can't conceive of it being possible to truly be prepared within the limitations of a city.
> ...


City living/survival vs country living/survival is a matter of perspective and what you prepare for. Personally, the total meltdown in society is not what we prepare for, there are much more localized and common human or nature caused events that we prepare for...but even these best laid plans can be derailed at anytime.

Case in point...we live in a city due to our line of work and had planned on 2 more years of city living before purchasing our life long dream of land in a rural area about 250 miles north of us. 

As I write this, our plans and our dreams are now literally up in smoke from a forest fire that now covers more then 10,000 acres. This area, of which we spend a lot time visiting (at least 2x month) is now nothing but burning, charred grasslands and forest. For those you who purchased the 2009 HT calendar, one of my photos in the calendar is close to this area

As we watch and hear the news of this fire, it has created discssion between the two of several times that had we bought land in this very area (which we have been active looking and waiting for prices to drop more) our dreams would of been further destroyed.

For the people (some we know) currently living in this area and well prepared for country living and who now have been evacuated. We know they moved from the city to the country so that they too could enjoy living the homesteading life and not worry about the downfalls and dangers of the city when there is a major disaster. Now they are under different dangers of which many would not never happen in a city.

For these people, their lives are forever changed...no matter if they escape any damage. For my g/f and I, our lives have changed along with our dreams and plans must start over in a different direction as this now burned out area will take hundreds of years to rejuvenate back to even a shell of it's former beauty.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

K - that's so sad about that beautiful area.

I'm glad you can still adjust your plans, just sorry to see them having to be changed.

Thank you for the top photo, that's how I'll remember it.

Angie


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

K--this is your chance for a super bargain. The fir is giving incredible amounts of nutrients back into the soil which will feed the regrowth of the next generation. You'd be surprised how green it will be next year. Sure it's "ugly". But saying it's barren? No way. Google up the Tillamook Burn, it only took 75 years for it to look like a fire never happened(these are BIG trees BTW, not scrub stuff and the fire was extremely devastating, glassing the soil it was so hot)--and believe me things were well on their way growing back within a few years. The land is still fertile, in fact more than it was before. There is plenty of salvagable wood out there. The grass will be back up in a few months if sooner. It does not take "hundreds" of years.

I live with the danger of forest fire. If it happens I'll get out of the way, but I'm coming back to go on--I will not abandon the land because it looks icky. Fire is a NATURAL HEALTHY part of the forest cycle. Sorry, this is a soapbox issue with me--moaning about fire "ruining" the forest. You're missing out on a great deal. In fact, it's a great thing the land is now cleared of the garbage dead and diseased wood that has built up from fire suppression, believe me, a buttload of work has been done for you by mom nature. Not to mention it's far less likely to burn for a long time.

(PS, I know I'm being mean about your personal fire disaster I know it's shocking right now, but really the glass is half full--homesteading is all about the glass being half full)


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## Kari (Mar 24, 2008)

Wyld Thang:

Forest and grassland re-growth depends on many variables and one important substance which is water. This particular area is some of the harshest, driest and area in all of North America where rain and snowfall is less then 12 inches per year.

This area has researched records of forest fires and logging back to the mid 1800's and today almost 2 centuries later it is plain to see that some areas that were either wiped out by forest fires or logging have yet to recover and are scarred with no or very stunted trees and very little ground cover. Some of the plants up there are not found in any other place on earth and are known to take hundreds of years to replenish. I was a Firefighter for years and helped fight my share of forest/wildland interface fires and know from firsthand experience and college education on the devastating short and long term effects of fires have on the this type of ecosystem that we humans do not see. For us, seeing and living amongst this type of destruction for the rest of lives is not what we want to do.

From first hand experience, there is one area that burned when I was just a kid and now 30 years later when we drive by it, it looks like the fire was only a couple of years ago as there has not been little re-growth. 

As for forest fires cleaning up the earth, I agree to a certain point, however this fire was set by humans and not a direct cause of nature taking care of itself...

Finally for all this to be shocking, in the big scheme of things, not really...I have seen and experienced far worse then this in my life and we consider and accept this change in our dreams and plans as part of life's ever changing journey.

Here is another photo that shows the area and it's varied ecosystem


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

K--I will agree on your point of your area's 12 of rainfall being a factor on recovery(more annual rain/snow making faster recovery)--you didn't say where you were located and I could only guess where you were(where are you by the way?). But even so, fire is a natural risk in your area, and modern logging/forestry practices have come a long way in recent years in understanding how to do it responsibly and working along nature's beat. 

HOWEVER, I stand by my point I was trying to make in general about fire--in the media it's a general assumption that all fire is irreparably destructive, all we ever see are the flames, NOT the recovery that begins afterwards. THAT is what ticks me off. Not to mention the attitude that a place's beauty or soul or whatever is gone because it passed through a natural phase of its life cycle(even if the fire is set by humans, you well know that fire is always a possibility in your area--it just happened sooner than later and a lightning bolt is quite a bigger ignition flash than a match).

Even if it takes as long as it needs to take to regenerate--_it is doing so on Nature's timetable for that ecosystem._ It's DOING IT. It's not dead. 

There are endangered and sensitive and unique plants in the Tillamook as well just as in your area--and I'm sure you know what I mean when I say the soil was GLASSED, as in cooked, sterilized DEEPLY by a monster fire...and yet, 75 years later(well, we do get 80+ annual rainfall) those species have come back, aside from an even aged second growth(really "second growth"? it's thirty or a hundred growth) everything is there.

Sorry to highjack this thread, I just get all riled up when people look at a burned area, call it dead, and never give it a second thought(speaking about the public)--they miss the opportunity to learn about the resiliance of nature, how powerful freakin LIFE is, and how fast it does recover when we step outside our little daytimered lives and quit telling nature what to do


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

I live just outside the NJ 'Pine Barrens' where the dominent pine needs fire to open the cones & let it reproduce. I've also seen small fire areas in the Poconos that's now 20 yrs old & you can only tell from a few black trees...'Barrens fires can be similar to natural 'controlled burns' so fire is part of the whole picture.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Karihwanoron... what wyldthang said. Might get your land now at a discount. If it just burned, and burned the forest down completely, odds are, the forest won't burn again for a long time. {spent a year with the USFS doing prescribed natural fires} Of course, from those pics, it doesn't look like there'd be much gardening going on, and the seasons would be very short.

OP... if some catastrophe struck and knocked out the human equation, city living might be the ticket... lots of resources, stored food, fuel, supplies. But if the human population doesn't blink out instantly, I doubt it would be pleasant, if the culling/thinning took a few weeks. Especially if you have government wards in large numbers. Most folks will be useless and dangerous after a while... those that have never worked will be even more useless and dangerous, very quickly, after their first check doesn't arrive on time.

Finished reading "Deep Winter" last week... the main character made out 'alright', living on the edge of a city... but he did have to do some culling of the gene pool.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

K--I just wanted to add(if you can stand it, sorry), we have places here in Oregon that have taken a few thousand years to replace the forest because of lava flows(just for the sake of one-upping on time ). Can we tell the mountain to not blow up(like Mt St Helens) can we tell the mountainside to not fall away? My point it yes the forest grows again...obviously in your particular pocket it takes longer--naturally. There are still many areas elsewhere that were burned and people write it off as spoiled land when that is the furthest from the truth. I know a handfull of old farts who bought land that was burned or logged for a bargain price, then sat on it and made a bundle either sellign the land or the timber(course timber prices are in the toilet here, you can't even make enough to pay the truck and gas--BUT just let the timber keep growing, someday the market will get better, a great savings account!).

I take all care in preventing my fire use from causing a fire, I dont' want to be stupid and set one off(to reassure you I'm not a pyro). On the other hand I can see the beauty in a raging fire(which probably sounds horribly sacriligious)...because I've learned what comes next. Nature, by it's nature, is very fecund, it's just a matter of time.

Hope you find what you need, K! Where was the pic taken?

Texican, you bring up a good point about climate for gardening. If the annual rainfall is 12" people have no business moving up there in droves(just saying with what people's usual water use is, even if they conserve--or, isnt' that the rainfall of LA ??!!!!!). Even here where I am in Oregon (annual rainfall 80"+) we STILL have water/land use issues with letting people put in developments in the hills(exercising their property rights in a foolish way) because the wells often have to be SO deep to reach a water table and they run dry in the summer. And human activity--moreso people who move in that have no clue about taking care--brings heightened fire risk/responsibility along with fire fighting access issues which I'm sure you know all about, K. 

I guess the whole fire possibility speaks to the transience of survival(to bring this back to the OP)--I've seen many people say they live in a densely populated area and plan to bug in with all their preps, to defend their fort, but looking at history people who survived terrible times were mobile. Dont' underestimate the critical mass of an angry mob or try to put out a forest fire--get out of the way!!!

(ps, on the other hand if you see a lightning bolt make contact and light something up go ahead and shovel it out if you can--been there done that)


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

I guess I know a bit about making it through a crisis in a city. I lived through the aftermath of the Northridge Earthquake which hit just a couple miles away. We had no electricity for 2 days (some areas had none for a week), and my condo had no gas supply for hot water for a month (all the gas lines in the complex ruptured). So I had to do laundry and shower at various friends' places for a month (that was cool, I always got a sympathy meal out of the visit). 

Basically, a significant number of people fled the area (some never returned), but most stayed. The community pulled together in a really amazing way, and everyone became much more polite toward strangers, and less aggressive in their driving habits, and everybody GOT ALONG for about a month before the crisis mentality wore off. People looked out for each other, and helped neighbors and strangers in ways I have not seen before or since.

So when you rural preppers assume the cities are gonna fall apart and we'll all become murderous zombie hordes, you are probably dead wrong. You like to demonize city dwellers in the way you demonize liberals, but these are cartoonish caricatures. In real life, a city is full of, well, REAL PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams and worries and fears just like you. 

Don't sell us short.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I think every person just has to do the best they can with what they have. I am not so sure any of us are very safe and secure. So to hold one group over another is in bad taste to me. Just let everyone do what they can...how they can, as they can. 

Not everyone can move to the country and if they did....then what?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

insocal, we were talking about a complete collapse of the system, not a one off earthquake where everything was still in place around you. I'm sure "everybody" knows how people work together and work through things when they have pretty good assurance things will get back to normal, or they can go to a place that is normal. But take away the knowledge that the juice/gas WILL be restored, or replacement parts can be gotten for the water recycling plant--what happens when there is no water, no electricity, no paycheck, no food...for a really long time, if ever. Sure you can make do--but to ignore the fact there will be a big number of angry people(Rodney King ring a bell?) is shortsighted. If you want to ride that out in LA, that's your choice, nobody's going to stop you. But at least they care enough to comment that may not be the best choice.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

insocal said:


> I guess I know a bit about making it through a crisis in a city. I lived through the aftermath of the Northridge Earthquake which hit just a couple miles away. We had no electricity for 2 days (some areas had none for a week), and my condo had no gas supply for hot water for a month (all the gas lines in the complex ruptured). So I had to do laundry and shower at various friends' places for a month (that was cool, I always got a sympathy meal out of the visit).
> 
> Basically, a significant number of people fled the area (some never returned), but most stayed. The community pulled together in a really amazing way, and everyone became much more polite toward strangers, and less aggressive in their driving habits, and everybody GOT ALONG for about a month before the crisis mentality wore off. People looked out for each other, and helped neighbors and strangers in ways I have not seen before or since.
> 
> ...


I may have been one to disparage urbanites... Personally I'm glad people like to live in cities... wish everyone did... mean more elbow room for those of us that prefer dark skies.

I just can't imagine what will happen, when the food stops coming in on a daily basis. During a localized disaster, people still have hope, knowing that their dilemma is short term. Let it be known that the grocery stores are empty, and there'll be no food in for months, that the restaurants are closed, what food you have at home is all there is, and all the roads out of town are a continuous parking lot of stranded vehicles..... and then let's see how things work out.

I'm not trying to be mean, just wanting you to think about the survivability of urban living. Does your town produce all of it's own food? If not, it's not survivable (for all the people). Those that have prepped will have a better chance of surviving than those that don't.

It's not just the cities. No country is more than three days away from a revolution. Not everyone in the country has a garden, preps, and raises or gathers all their own food. I'd say it's a distinct minority that 'do'. I see more gardens this year than I have in previous years... but a garden alone isn't going to do it. Folks in the country that don't prep will be just as hard off as the cousins in town. They'll last longer because they have more resources available, and they usually know someone with a garden. Most folks I know have at least one freezer full of groceries. Some, like myself have several.

Living in a big city has it's advantages, as long as the world's still spinning on it's axis. Once the trucks stop rolling, and the food stays on the farm, all those advantageous luxuries will dissipate into the past.

to sum up: you can prep for short term problems in the city, but if the country goes downhill, and the financial system collapses, well, you're on your own.

Walking back from the garden this evening, with a basket full of taters, sweet corn, peppers, tomatoes, and squash, I noticed the plum trees will be ripe in a few days. Passing the pier on the lake, I saw the catfish were still fighting over the last pieces of the flour tortillas I'd thrown out half an hour before. Put some of the straggling milk goats in the barn. Fought my way through the guineas, geese, and hundreds of chickens, some of which were feasting under the rabbit cages.... Food everywhere. We're blessed.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

insocal said:


> So when you rural preppers assume the cities are gonna fall apart and we'll all become murderous zombie hordes, you are probably dead wrong. You like to demonize city dwellers in the way you demonize liberals, but these are cartoonish caricatures. In real life, a city is full of, well, REAL PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams and worries and fears just like you.


When I said long term survival in the cities would be difficult, I meant the circumstances. It was not a dig against people who live in cities. I have lived in cities so I know how difficult it would be. There is no way to grow enough food for all or even many of the inhabitants. Wildlife - pigeons, squirrels, ducks, cats, dogs, & whatever - would be wiped out pretty quickly. Water could be difficult unless there are rivers/lakes in or near the city. Heat in the winter would be impossible. 

While our own rural situation is dependent on others to a great degree, we could survive. But people like me would lose a LOT of weight!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

insocal said:


> So when you rural preppers assume the cities are gonna fall apart and we'll all become murderous zombie hordes, you are probably dead wrong. You like to demonize city dwellers in the way you demonize liberals, but these are cartoonish caricatures. In real life, a city is full of, well, REAL PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams and worries and fears just like you.
> 
> Don't sell us short.


We're not talking about a few days. Yes, the city is filled with real people, but those REAL people are going to run out of REAL food REAL quick. I'm sure there are some nice folks living in the city, but statistically speaking, the cities are filled with a lot more scumbags than the open country.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I'm going to try looking at this from the other side. IF I was a zombie, I'd be totally unprepped, no food storage, no tools or knowledge of how to grow food and unaware of how long the emergency would last until the feds show up to "fix" everything. 

I'd move fast to do all I could ASAP before the window of opportunity closes. I'd go after apts & houses in the more affluent part of town. 

When I'd run into the occasional prepper who would defend their place. I'd assume they had something VERY valuable in there that they were willing to die to protect. That would make me want it even more. I'd concentrate on taking out that prepper. If several of my people got shot, I'd go to extreme measures and possibly use dynamite to blow them out of there. If I couldn't get any dynamite, then I'd simply set the building on fire. (I'd do ANYTHING to take out that prepper cause if I failed I'd lose the respect of my gang.)

Once it was obvious that the feds were not coming and the status quo would not return any time soon, I'd expand into the burbs doing the same thing.

Nope, I don't think anyone in the city can survive unless they have an army and the proper equipment to fight off another army. I think it will be that way in the burbs too, but it'll take longer for the burbs to feel the pain. By the time they get to the point of roaming the countrysides looking for food, they will be running out of gas and not so mobile. That should prevent them from moving in mass so they will have to break up into smaller strike units that will be easier to defeat (that might be wishful thinking on my part).


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well thought out, Spinner. 

More so, we (the survivalists) are almost always alone. We might have sons or a wife who can shoot, but we are few in number. We're also scattered in ideology. We have no means of banding together post-collapse.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Spinner said:


> I'm going to try looking at this from the other side. IF I was a zombie, I'd be totally unprepped, no food storage, no tools or knowledge of how to grow food and unaware of how long the emergency would last until the feds show up to "fix" everything.
> 
> I'd move fast to do all I could ASAP before the window of opportunity closes. I'd go after apts & houses in the more affluent part of town.
> 
> ...


Except you wouldn't be a zombie then, you'd be a vulture (or jackal, hyena, or some such).

I agree that city life would become tough, and metropolises would signficantly shrink (as would the population as a whole) but it's unlikely that they'd vanish or cease their historical functions as crossroads, markets, clearing houses, transportation hubs and general concentrations of resources and power.

The institution of the city is something like 6000 years old and they've survived that long because they serve vital functions. It's unlikely that anything short of mass human extinction or alien invasion will be the demise of cities.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

I may be slow this morning (it is a Monday afterall) but whats "the big v"?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I was wondering what big v is too. 

In the movie the Postman people holed up in small towns(like really small towns)after some years after tshtf, a wall and a gate was around, the number of people was small enough to support by gardens and hunting and livestock, but big enough to put up a good fight.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wyld thang said:


> I was wondering what big v is too.
> 
> In the movie the Postman people holed up in small towns(like really small towns)after some years after tshtf, a wall and a gate was around, the number of people was small enough to support by gardens and hunting and livestock, but big enough to put up a good fight.


Isn't that basically what a Castle use to be/ a fortress with the members mostly inside, or close enough to get inside if danger came around? 
Water source inside the walls, etc. 

That's what I need! A castle.

Angie


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

check out www.thesurvivalpodcast.com

today's show features some of the benefits of suburbia


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Well thought out, Spinner.
> 
> More so, we (the survivalists) are almost always alone. We might have sons or a wife who can shoot, but we are few in number. We're also scattered in ideology. We have no means of banding together post-collapse.


 This is why in the extreme, long-term scenarios which are being contemplated here it's community survival or extinction. This has been played out time and again throughout human history. Your near neighbors are the ones you are going to live or die with. Your survivalist buddies who live far away are for all practical purposes going to disappear when long-range communications begin to break down. They're certainly not going to be able to come running to help you when the mob shows up at your gates.

Cities have lived, cities have died. No different than folks in the country. No way to know which is better one way or the other until we get down to the brass tacks of the circumstances of the scenario.

I personally prefer the country life, but there are some situations where living out here puts me in a dicey situation. Choose your lifestyle and go for it. Either can be made to work with sufficient advanced planning and preparation and both can fail disastrously if the wrong set of circumstances come together.

In _most_ less-than-extreme long-term scenarios I find I prefer my country existence. But this is as much lifestyle choice as anything else.

.....Alan.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> insocal, we were talking about a complete collapse of the system, not a one off earthquake where everything was still in place around you. I'm sure "everybody" knows how people work together and work through things when they have pretty good assurance things will get back to normal, or they can go to a place that is normal. But take away the knowledge that the juice/gas WILL be restored, or replacement parts can be gotten for the water recycling plant--what happens when there is no water, no electricity, no paycheck, no food...for a really long time, if ever. Sure you can make do--but to ignore the fact there will be a big number of angry people(Rodney King ring a bell?) is shortsighted. If you want to ride that out in LA, that's your choice, nobody's going to stop you. But at least they care enough to comment that may not be the best choice.


You mention Rodney King, but don't forget that whole thing was in my back yard, too. We had a couple of days and nights of apprehension and increased police visibility, but most areas were otherwise unaffected. You can't hold that out as a total collapse of society, lol. 

It's not my choice to stay in LA, BTW. I am pretty much stuck here until I retire. I'm not made of money, and can't simply abandon my only asset - my practice. Life doesn't always work out the way we plan it, lol.

I don't see your Armageddon-like vision playing out here city-wide in my lifetime. And if it did, I am better equipped than most to get by because I have a lot of knowledge and skills that people would need.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

insocal said:


> So when you rural preppers assume the cities are gonna fall apart and we'll all become murderous zombie hordes, you are probably dead wrong. You like to demonize city dwellers in the way you demonize liberals, but these are cartoonish caricatures. In real life, a city is full of, well, REAL PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams and worries and fears just like you.
> 
> Don't sell us short.


 Thank You!! us suburbanites are pretty cool also, are there some idiots in this world? sure they live all over city/suburb/country, Is city life sustainable if TSHTF - maybe, maybe not, all depends on the situation, how many country folk are truely self-sustained when you get down to it. What happens when the average American farmer ca';t get the petroleum based fertilizers -- frankly I think a lot of farmers couldn't farm without all the chemicals -- my organic suburban garden will do just fine if all that went away.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

insocal said:


> You mention Rodney King, but don't forget that whole thing was in my back yard, too. We had a couple of days and nights of apprehension and increased police visibility, but most areas were otherwise unaffected. You can't hold that out as a total collapse of society, lol.
> 
> .


I offered the Rodney King hoo-hah as an example of how close the edge people can get over a verdict, not an example of total collapse of society. LOL (like this is a laughing matter?) But hey, whatever floats your boat. Again, we are not saying life is unlivable in the city/suburb, just that *civil unrest* is unlivable in a total collapse of utilities, services, goods delivery. Take that violence factor out and I think everyone is saying sure go for it with your backyard/balcony containers.

"Practice"? I'm assuming medical something or other. I know plenty of rural places that are dying for a doctor--the county will even give you a house and land and vehicles and the office building, but then on the other hand it doesnt pay much either.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

or another way to say what we're trying to get across--YES you can BE prepared in the city/suburb, but if things go MAD MAX, you have very low odds of STAYING prepared by the fact you are in the vicinity of a huge amount of questionable people(or within a full gas tank of ground zero). 

Being rural means you have the "insulation" of distance, it takes more time/energy/will to get out that far. You also know your neighbors, and know what they're capable of(at least I do here)--who has your back. There's other advantages too. 

(BTW, Mad MAx was written as a what if about peak oil)


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

wyld thang said:


> or another way to say what we're trying to get across--YES you can BE prepared in the city/suburb, but if things go MAD MAX, you have very low odds of STAYING prepared by the fact you are in the vicinity of a huge amount of questionable people(or within a full gas tank of ground zero).
> 
> Being rural means you have the "insulation" of distance, it takes more time/energy/will to get out that far. You also know your neighbors, and know what they're capable of(at least I do here)--who has your back. There's other advantages too.
> 
> (BTW, Mad MAx was written as a what if about peak oil)


I'm not sure I agree. I live in the area of a large town/small city surrounded by rural areas. In town, there's a small 'bad neighborhood' but in general those in town are genial and friendly. It's too big to say that everyone knows everybody, but there's only about one degree of seperation between knowing everybody. 

On the weekends, people come down out of the mountains to shop or whatever, and they're a whole different sort of people - rude, obnoxious, bad driving, mostly identifiable by their license plates. Given the historical and cultural nature of the area, one assumes they all have a lot more guns than brains. 

That's a generalization, to be sure. I've met some of them that were pretty good people, but they were the exception rather than the rule. Until I moved here, I'd always preferred country people to city people, but I've had to rethink that position.

Should the Poop hits the fan, it's my expectation that we, the townies, would be defending ourselves against the rural people rather than the other way around.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

NoClue said:


> I'm not sure I agree. I live in the area of a large town/small city surrounded by rural areas. In town, there's a small 'bad neighborhood' but in general those in town are genial and friendly. It's too big to say that everyone knows everybody, but there's only about one degree of seperation between knowing everybody.
> 
> On the weekends, people come down out of the mountains to shop or whatever, and they're a whole different sort of people - rude, obnoxious, bad driving, mostly identifiable by their license plates. Given the historical and cultural nature of the area, one assumes they all have a lot more guns than brains.
> 
> ...


I think you're probably right about your very last comment. And people here have enough space in their back yards in the Valley (and vacant lots) to grow most their food. If TSHTF, the chicken population will skyrocket, as will meat rabbits. As long as we have water we can get by. If we lose that, we're sunk. But I live one block from a creek that comes down from the Santa Monicas that most locals don't even know is there and has water.

And in a partial collapse, remember that the Oxnard plain just to the west is where a vast percentage of US vegetables are grown year-round. We've got olive trees galore (for oil) and native walnuts, and I know where a lot of edible local plants grow.

I wouldn't want to be over on the Westside. They are totally urbanized compared to us, not a speck of grass for miles.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

insocal said:


> I think you're probably right about your very last comment. And people here have enough space in their back yards in the Valley (and vacant lots) to grow most their food. If TSHTF, the chicken population will skyrocket, as will meat rabbits. As long as we have water we can get by. If we lose that, we're sunk. But I live one block from a creek that comes down from the Santa Monicas that most locals don't even know is there and has water.
> 
> And in a partial collapse, remember that the Oxnard plain just to the west is where a vast percentage of US vegetables are grown year-round. We've got olive trees galore (for oil) and native walnuts, and I know where a lot of edible local plants grow.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be over on the Westside. They are totally urbanized compared to us, not a speck of grass for miles.


I used to live in California. The last place I lived was in Riverside County (between Moreno Valley and Hemet), and one of the few things I miss about California (no offense) is the free and cheap produce. The vacant lot where we walked our dogs had a bunch of olive trees and although it took me a while, I eventually figured out how to cure them and make them edible.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

YOU can prepare right now wherever you are. No more excuses. Get started. You are responsible for you.


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## krische1012 (May 3, 2009)

I am relatively new to both this BB as well as the survivalist mentality. That being said DH is much more experienced with the mentality and it has really rubbed off on me! I am currently in the process of relocating from Houston which is one of the largest cities in the country to rather rural Kentucky. One of the motivating factors was in fact the desire to not be in the city in the event of a catastrophe.

I do not think that a city particularly one such as Houston would give even a well prepared individual/family a good chance of survival. For example this past September we dealt with hurricane Ike. There was plenty of warning a storm was coming and even though my DH and I had been out of town until 3 days before the storm hit we were well able to stock up with enough supplies for a few weeks without electricity (we lived in an apartment at the time). Fortunately we only lost power for 24 hours so things were very normal for us very quickly but especially further south (closer to the Gulf) things took much longer to get back to normal. People were immediately crying for food, water, shelter, and even money because they had not bothered to prepare themselves .

I saved this quote from an article that msn.com published at the time:

Thenesa Humphrey, 36, waited in her SUV with her husband and four teenage children for supplies. She said that she didn't know what they were handing out but that they would take anything â they hadn't had any supplies for days, and they were hungry.

"We're just taking whatever they give us. It don't matter," Humphrey said after her home was hit by low water pressure. "No electricity, no gas, no water pressure, no money. We don't know when we are going to get anything."

Based on my experiences in this city I do not think it will matter how well prepared you are because the hungry mob expecting the FEMA trailers that don't show up can still over run you. The mentality that the government will fix your problems and take care of you is to common in big cities and when the government fails to give them what they want/need I do not see them rediscovering a work ethic; I see them taking from those who prepared.

Sorry to be pessimistic...but this is what I have seen...


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

If I were a city dweller and was serious about prepping, I'd look for a storage facility on a main mass transit route to rent monthly. Get a bunch of rubbermaid tubs for boxed items (for the rodent protection) and buy cases of canned goods, fill it up bits at a time. There isn't much room in a two bedroom apartment, but some apartments are big enough to keep a smallish freezer in the kitchen.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

pickapeppa said:


> If I were a city dweller and was serious about prepping, I'd look for a storage facility on a main mass transit route to rent monthly. Get a bunch of rubbermaid tubs for boxed items (for the rodent protection) and buy cases of canned goods, fill it up bits at a time. There isn't much room in a two bedroom apartment, but some apartments are big enough to keep a smallish freezer in the kitchen.


If you do that, but something like a box of old clothes, or 'normal' stuff in front of the good stuff in case someone sees in.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> Thank You!! us suburbanites are pretty cool also, are there some idiots in this world? sure they live all over city/suburb/country, Is city life sustainable if TSHTF - maybe, maybe not, all depends on the situation, how many country folk are truely self-sustained when you get down to it. What happens when the average American farmer ca';t get the petroleum based fertilizers -- frankly I think a lot of farmers couldn't farm without all the chemicals -- my organic suburban garden will do just fine if all that went away.


Growing up rural, starting out a young adult in suburbia, and finally returned to the country, I think I've seen my fair share of people here and people there. If there's one thing I've learned it's that people are the same everywhere you go.

There were drug dealing, gun wielding gangs members in the city and they're out here too. There were unmotivated slobs in the burbs, and they're out here too. There were folks who were the salt of the earth, the country dwellers have no monopoly there either.

There is one disadvantage I can think of when it comes to being rural and that is - - not as many eyes to witnesses to help out if something does go wrong. Not just that, but there is little to no police protection. How often to the county cops patrol the area?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

pickapeppa said:


> There is one disadvantage I can think of when it comes to being rural and that is - - not as many eyes to witnesses to help out if something does go wrong. Not just that, but there is little to no police protection. How often to the county cops patrol the area?


Everyone is armed in my neck of the woods, and are either hunters or veterans, or hunters AND veterans. Just sayin it's my experience that yes there's not as many people, but those people are at least halfway handy as a cop. As opposed to say, a soccer mom.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Your last post nailed it picapeppa.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

insocal said:


> I think you're probably right about your very last comment. And people here have enough space in their back yards in the Valley (and vacant lots) to grow most their food. If TSHTF, the chicken population will skyrocket, as will meat rabbits. As long as we have water we can get by. If we lose that, we're sunk. But I live one block from a creek that comes down from the Santa Monicas that most locals don't even know is there and has water.
> 
> And in a partial collapse, remember that the Oxnard plain just to the west is where a vast percentage of US vegetables are grown year-round. We've got olive trees galore (for oil) and native walnuts, and I know where a lot of edible local plants grow.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be over on the Westside. They are totally urbanized compared to us, not a speck of grass for miles.


I have a question so ca'ers where do you plan to get your water ??? 
the majority of the valleys water comes from the other side of the mountains.
what three rivers diverted , no power or noone to man those controls and So Ca will go right back to being dry land with very little fresh water . 
I dont care how much food you have in a city the simple fact is without water treatment and pumps running you wont have drinkable water . 
look at chicago in the 1800s and the plagues they had because of sewage in the drinking water . what was the first thing to cause sickness in NO yeap water . I challenge anyone to grow anything edible without a water source.
you can go hungry for weeks but very few can survive more than three days without water . Its one of the most over looked items of survival. 
How about those NYs gonna run down to the hudson for a drink ? well that will sure lower the population quick . It also creates a chain reaction on surface and ground water , see the more people die or get ill drinking contaminated water the more water their fescies and decaying bodies will contaminate.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

thanks pyro, I was too chicken to say it  it's unbelievable how much water CA moves around.


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> Everyone is armed in my neck of the woods, and are either hunters or veterans, or hunters AND veterans. Just sayin it's my experience that yes there's not as many people, but those people are at least halfway handy as a cop. As opposed to say, a soccer mom.


I agree. I live on the very edge of a town of 12,000...next to fields on a gravel road, but they still claim us in their city limits. The police took over 1/2 an hour arguing with the sheriff over if we were their jurisdiction or not  with the before sending anyone out the one time I called them. I am soooo not going to depend on them in an emergency. I'll depend on myself/dh. even the sheriff said just to shoot and not wait LOL.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> Everyone is armed in my neck of the woods, and are either hunters or veterans, or hunters AND veterans. Just sayin it's my experience that yes there's not as many people, but those people are at least halfway handy as a cop. As opposed to say, a soccer mom.


Plenty of armed folks in the cities too. It's not all soccer moms. (took out the political jab, this isn't GC - Angie).

:1pig:

Angie, it was a funny, not a jab. Not into jabbing here, but joking, yes indeed.


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## silvergirl (Jul 30, 2006)

Great discussions, guys... Interesting perspectives... 

I notice that the urbanites/suburbanites quite naturally defend their decision to stay in the cities and maintain that they could survive in difficult circumstances. Well, I guess we all want to believe we've made the best and wisest, most sustainable choices. 

Realistically, though, most urbanites and suburbanites don't have the resources to sustain themselves long term. I think it is the notion of _sustaining themselves_ that is key. Can the average apartment dweller get a wood cook stove going or build a fireplace or firepit? Not likely. Does the average apartment dweller or city dweller have the means to raise their own meat, the skills to harvest it (yes - I do mean kill, skin, and _preserve_), or even the means to feed it? Does the urbanite have the space, the seeds, the skills, the organic fertilizer to grow their own produce? their own fruit trees? nut trees? What about some of the luxuries of life - like honey? How many are comfortable with honey bees - how many could even recognize a honey bee? What kind of game would be available in the city - rats, cats, dogs, squirrel... Do you know how to set a snare? Are you prepared mentally to defend you and yours? Do you have the resources and skills to do so? There won't be time to learn any of this stuff once the day has come and gone...

Sadly, it is also true that a lot of country dwellers are no more prepared than city folks. They sit in their country estates, ride their lawn mowers around their expansive acreages, trimming grass relentlessly, and build completely unsustainable homes with high ceilings, cathedral windows, and electric heat... 

But that's not what we're about on this forum, anyway... we're about homesteading, right? We're about pursuing, about living, a lifestyle that was widespread less than a hundred years ago, and has come close to being lost forever. Vital skills lost. Vital knowledge lost. More importantly, a vitality of attitude and independence - lost. 

...and the point of raising the question of urban/rural survivability, at least from my perspective, is to prompt people to think about their living practices - city and country. Have you got the means and the skills to make it? Does your environment support your long term survival? Does it support your ability to _thrive_, not just survive? Are you prepared to contribute actively to the survival of your community or will you be a burden on your neighbors? I actually know someone who moved themselves and their family to a town they thought could best support them if things went bad... and they've done nothing to provide for themselves... nothing. 

I believe we need to be ready... I don't want the urbanites or suburbanites to fail... I want us all to make it... Human beings need community. We need to pool all our skills, all our resources... I want to build sustainable communities and encourage everyone to be a part of a sustainable lifestyle... I don't think it can happen in the city, but if folks move to the farmlands, to the country towns, live and work from there, and develop their skills, then our country will not stay down for long, no matter what disaster overtakes us. America's national bird is the Eagle, with its majestic presence... but we are also the Phoenix... able to rise from defeat and ashes to regain the summits... Maybe I'm waxing a little too poetic for a conservative old country girl... I almost sound like a liberal... but I have a vision of what this country could be and I wanted to take this opportunity to raise a few questions, to encourage active thought, to engage people in taking steps to re-create their lives not just in theory but in practice.... 

The more of us that embrace long term sustainable living, the stronger our communities will be... We need to be strong, together. We need to stand on our own two feet, side by side. Well... there's my soapbox for the night... 

Thanks, all, for the dynamic exchange on this thread... I'll look forward to ongoing posts...
silvergirl


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

One thing about cities once a large portion of the population is gone cities will become a great resource for gathering. The warehouses of clothing ,pots pans, machinery and such will be like gold mines .
one of the problems that will be seen with a sudden drop in population is fire .
many cities and towns will still have natural gas , unattended stoves and water heaters will malfunction and buildings will burn. in cities with building close together this will be a massive loss . even lightning strikes will start such fires.
however this destruction wont be contained to cities it will also effect rural areas as grass and weeds dry in the summer , prairie and forest fires will burn undisturbed . 
In the case of a highly deadly virus out break , those who survive will have to be prepared to harvest the fields abandon as well as prepared to release stock from confinement . 
The folks down the road may have had cattle but with noone to feed them in a confined area those animal will soon die of starvation, as will the chickens locked in the chicken house . 
It seems that some feel utilizing the resources of the dead would be un-ethical although I count really see how . if say the population has been reduced meaning 1 person out of say 1000 survived the virus or disaster there would in theory be a surplus of materials and resources to draw from.
those who survive and use such resources will be in a far better position.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

krische1012 said:


> I am relatively new to both this BB as well as the survivalist mentality. That being said DH is much more experienced with the mentality and it has really rubbed off on me! I am currently in the process of relocating from Houston which is one of the largest cities in the country to rather rural Kentucky. One of the motivating factors was in fact the desire to not be in the city in the event of a catastrophe.
> 
> I do not think that a city particularly one such as Houston would give even a well prepared individual/family a good chance of survival. For example this past September we dealt with hurricane Ike. There was plenty of warning a storm was coming and even though my DH and I had been out of town until 3 days before the storm hit we were well able to stock up with enough supplies for a few weeks without electricity (we lived in an apartment at the time). Fortunately we only lost power for 24 hours so things were very normal for us very quickly but especially further south (closer to the Gulf) things took much longer to get back to normal. People were immediately crying for food, water, shelter, and even money because they had not bothered to prepare themselves .
> 
> ...


The people around here who don't have a work ethic aren't the inner city poor, lol. They are the suburban wealthy and soccer mom crowd. When the earthquake hit in 1994, THAT'S who was yelling and screaming the loudest about their demands. The poor just got right down to work and dealt with it.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

pickapeppa said:


> If I were a city dweller and was serious about prepping, I'd look for a storage facility on a main mass transit route to rent monthly. Get a bunch of rubbermaid tubs for boxed items (for the rodent protection) and buy cases of canned goods, fill it up bits at a time. There isn't much room in a two bedroom apartment, but some apartments are big enough to keep a smallish freezer in the kitchen.


This is a good idea. I have a storage unit two blocks away.

But wait, I was gonna bring the stuff home (Craigslist some of it) and quit paying the rent, lol........


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> I have a question so ca'ers where do you plan to get your water ???
> the majority of the valleys water comes from the other side of the mountains.
> what three rivers diverted , no power or noone to man those controls and So Ca will go right back to being dry land with very little fresh water .
> I dont care how much food you have in a city the simple fact is without water treatment and pumps running you wont have drinkable water .
> ...


LA will keep the water running. We get HUGE amounts of water from the San Gabriel Mountains which are in LA County. We have large aquifers under the area. If we lost all electricity permanently then eventually the many local reservoirs that hold water from the aqueducts would go dry. But in a crisis that severe, remember that industrial use of water AND lawn-watering would simply cease. And large numbers of people would leave the area. Those of us remaining would have water. It would just be a lot different from t he way things are today. 

Oh, and cisterns for rainwater harvesting would be a major growth industry. We get PLENTY of rain here to meet all our needs. It just falls in a really short time period, on very few days.

Short-term in a crisis, my water comes from a very large reservoir two miles up the hill from me. Gravity provides the pressure.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> One thing about cities once a large portion of the population is gone cities will become a great resource for gathering. The warehouses of clothing ,pots pans, machinery and such will be like gold mines .
> one of the problems that will be seen with a sudden drop in population is fire .
> many cities and towns will still have natural gas , unattended stoves and water heaters will malfunction and buildings will burn. in cities with building close together this will be a massive loss . even lightning strikes will start such fires.
> however this destruction wont be contained to cities it will also effect rural areas as grass and weeds dry in the summer , prairie and forest fires will burn undisturbed .
> ...


I don't imagine city folks will take kindly to rural folks coming into the city to steal/scavenge. We'll be happy to barter, however.

Oh, and about water contamination.........I have an extensive background in microbiology of water and sewage. I know how to treat my own drinking water, and can teach my fellow city dwellers (and provide the means to do so) for a small fee, lol. For that matter, I have a great deal of valuable knowledge and skills. And a copy of Where There Is No Doctor. 

You may think some city dwellers are latte-sipping, BMW-driving slackers, and many are. But not me, by any stretch of the imagination.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

PyroDon, you and yours don't sound very well prepared, since you talk about the need to scavenge if TSHTF, lol. I have a proposal: you come to the city with your grain and produce and livestock and handicrafts and we can set up a marketplace and we'll trade city goodies with you, like clothes and shoes and scrap steel and such. And I can give you information on how to grow your own hemp and flax and how to process it for fiber for clothing. But it will cost. And you'll have to give me a percentage of your crop forever.

(where's a wink smilie when I need one)


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> I have a question so ca'ers where do you plan to get your water ???


Along these same lines, water will soon become a problem nation wide. My state has been talking about selling water to Texas. We have a shortage of our own and the politicians are thinking about shorting us even more!  Every summer several wells in the area go dry. IF the idiots in the city get their way and sell our water, a lot more wells will go dry and they will go dry earlier and stay dry longer. What the heck is wrong with our politicians today... they act like they are the enemy of the people!


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

insocal said:


> I don't imagine city folks will take kindly to rural folks coming into the city to steal/scavenge. We'll be happy to barter, however.
> 
> Oh, and about water contamination.........I have an extensive background in microbiology of water and sewage. I know how to treat my own drinking water, and can teach my fellow city dwellers (and provide the means to do so) for a small fee, lol. For that matter, I have a great deal of valuable knowledge and skills. And a copy of Where There Is No Doctor.
> 
> You may think some city dwellers are latte-sipping, BMW-driving slackers, and many are. But not me, by any stretch of the imagination.


Not at all there are people with brains everywhere and there are also idiots everywhere . 
for the LA water shed I suggest you take a look at early photos of the area .
you will also have to keep in mind that all the survivors will congrigate around the river .
as for city folks not taking kindly to scavanging odds are that most will abandon the cities in search of food , coupled with the fact that large populations will produce more life threatening infections faster . In short highly populated areas will die off faster if such things follow as they have throughout history. Urban areas will not be able to produce enough food to sustain the population. . 
when contemplating such things you have to consider many factors .
LA may have mountain runoff but many other areas will return to their natural arid state as such human will migrate to the water sources . 
one dry year will mean thousands more die , a bad winter , a forest fire.
how much of the valley will survive when the seasonal fires sweep through with no fire dept to slow them . 
Im not knocking your area Im simply pointing out some harsh realities .
many areas have just as harsh realities to deal with and fail to do so . 
rural northerners will find that the snow they loved when they had snow mobiles and a store will be a prison when the growing season is short and a spring frost kills their plantings , theres a reason why areas with 4 month growing seasons didnt have much population. 
moutains while beautiful to look at can be the death of you .
the plains will be no different a wet spring delays planting then summer storms bring wind and hail . 
we are currently spoiled if our gardens are killed by a late frost we go get more seed and replant , if summer drought comes we grab the hose and water . if we are snowed in we turn the thermostat up and watch a video .
reality is a unforgiving teacher , when you think you have all your bases covered nature will trough you a curve . 
There will be nothing romantic or easy about survival, some may think they will plow and plant with a team of horses and be on an episode of little house . Real life doesnt always have a happy ending .


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

insocal said:


> PyroDon, you and yours don't sound very well prepared, since you talk about the need to scavenge if TSHTF, lol. I have a proposal: you come to the city with your grain and produce and livestock and handicrafts and we can set up a marketplace and we'll trade city goodies with you, like clothes and shoes and scrap steel and such. And I can give you information on how to grow your own hemp and flax and how to process it for fiber for clothing. But it will cost. And you'll have to give me a percentage of your crop forever.
> 
> (where's a wink smilie when I need one)


Ahh you underestimate. see Im no longer a big fan of hemp .
as for clothing nothing beats a pair of rabbit skin undies to keep you stimulated.
BTW when I was young and dumb I was quite good at growing hemp . 
you'd actually be more likely to come knocking on my door , see I can build your looms. not only that but I'll still have electricity at least some . Its already in place and in use .


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Or we could just give those who claim the city's scavenge as their own private domain 100% of a 7.62mm round. That's probably a better idea.

Whatever happens to cause this sort of situation, my feeling is that it will be far worse where there's more people.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

insocal said:


> I know how to treat my own drinking water, and can teach my fellow city dwellers (and provide the means to do so) for a small fee, lol.


I see your attitude as a negative. You'd be much further ahead to freely share life & death knowledge. Grateful people and irate people both have good memories of either your helping them or their loved ones dying because they didn't have the money to pay your price. 

Everyone will have to pull together to survive. IF you shre your knowledge with only those who can pay your price, then what will you do if nobody can pay? It could be very lonely being the only survivor living with the knowledge that you could have saved hundreds or thousands of people and didn't.

I'm glad my neighbors are generous people who are willing to share without compensation. I share with them too so in the end we all benefit instead of charging each other for help.


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## silvergirl (Jul 30, 2006)

Let's not forget that bullets will end up being a valuable commodity - particularly with the current limitations on ammo availability due to UN interference in the world market and the upcoming restrictions that will likely be imposed internally, here in the States. Maybe barter would not be a bad idea with the remaining city folk... if there are any... 

Personally, I think city folk are dreaming when they think they'll make it through any long term crisis... Things will not be rosy Little House on the Prairie storybook pie in the sky in the country, but at least our physical environment supports our survival... and, at least in our area, our community is already strong and cohesive. A neighbor stopped by today and asked if I had any guinea keets out of our hens... I had to tell him a coyote has been taking off our chickens and took our last guinea hen a few days ago... Disaster? Well, if S had already hit the fan, maybe... but that coyote's days are numbered because - again due to our strong community - we have a coyote caller coming next week to call them in and kill them... so there ya go... challenges and folks coming together to meet them... When we do get another guinea hen, I'll pass on keets to our neighbor as soon as we have some... and when we need a helping hand, he'll be there for us, too... 

I'm not suggesting that city folks won't co-operate but they'll have fewer natural resources to call on and a whole host of problems country folk won't have to deal with - depending on the area you're in , of course - here in WNC we have natural creeks, springs, and good water availability... good hunting, too... (coyote, anyone? )

If there is a pandemic outbreak (the big V) that hits our nation, chances are that country folk - if they've been living healthier lives, as is likely - will be more resilient than city folk... and we'll have the advantage of less crowding, fewer bodies piling up, less soil and water contamination... If neighbors do pass, then their livestock would be cared for by surviving neighbors... the community , again, would pull together... 

Again, it won't be all sunshine and roses... some places in the country are tougher places to survive - Alaska being one that comes to mind- but places that have chronic water shortages will also be harder places to make it... places with severe winters will have their own challenges and areas that are often hit with tornado or hurricane will present unique difficulties... Then, country folk have surmounted those challenges for generations. It is a hard life, but a good one... 

Take your skills and your abilities, choose a place that works for you - off the migration corridors - so you won't have to deal with bands of roving migrants (city or immigrant) - look to the weather, look to the community, look to the land... and be sensible about your survival... and yes, it really is as simple as making a new choice... then you take one step, another, and another... soon - you're where you need to be and ready for anything that comes...


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

silvergirl said:


> Let's not forget that bullets will end up being a valuable commodity - particularly with the current limitations on ammo availability due to UN interference in the world market and the upcoming restrictions that will likely be imposed internally, here in the States. Maybe barter would not be a bad idea with the remaining city folk... if there are any...
> 
> Personally, I think city folk are dreaming when they think they'll make it through any long term crisis... Things will not be rosy Little House on the Prairie storybook pie in the sky in the country, but at least our physical environment supports our survival... and, at least in our area, our community is already strong and cohesive. A neighbor stopped by today and asked if I had any guinea keets out of our hens... I had to tell him a coyote has been taking off our chickens and took our last guinea hen a few days ago... Disaster? Well, if S had already hit the fan, maybe... but that coyote's days are numbered because - again due to our strong community - we have a coyote caller coming next week to call them in and kill them... so there ya go... challenges and folks coming together to meet them... When we do get another guinea hen, I'll pass on keets to our neighbor as soon as we have some... and when we need a helping hand, he'll be there for us, too...
> 
> ...


I dunno, but this sounds to me an awful lot like us vs them and us are better sort of talk. And I think you have a very weirdly one sided view of what is in the cities and suburbs. We are not cookie cutter, just like that loser with 10 acres of trash and dumped mattresses that calls himself a farmer isn't representative of all rural folks.

I'm urban/suburban and have waterfront with two rivers, an overflow lake, a defensible entrance to 32 houses with 1/4 acre lots and 8 acres of blank and rich loamy soil that is greenspace for us to use if S hit the F. We're all upper middle class, most of us are quite fit, some of us garden and almost all of us are do-it-yourself'ers of one ilk or another. 7 of us have deep water piers and access to the ocean down the river. 3 of us are excellent in food storage and preservation. A half dozen or so are avid hunters. 2 of us have old vehicles, including one mint condition 1950's delivery van that is cute as a button and sturdy as a mule. 2 of have hunting dogs that hunt. 1 of us is an east coast fishing champ. 3 of us have been to sharpshooting school and 5 are retired or active military officers with 2 wars behind us.

Seriously, don't lump everyone so diligently into tiny buckets of us and them. While several of us here have country property and are here because of the military or other jobs and this isn't the ultimate place we want to be, none of us are stupid and made the best choice we could.

Oh, and I grow about half our food on about 1/5th of my quarter acre. And I'm totally prepared to up that.

Don't mean to get defensive here, but it gets really annoying when everyone just assumes everyone who is within a gas tank of a city is considered a defenseless locust rather than a fully capable person.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Wow, Christy - sounds like a really great group to be part of, and your location sounds very well.

Some how or another, I think the 'city' thought may be more of lower downtown, and projects and then maybe the up and coming apt dweller more interested in Starbucks than patio gardening. Maybe - I cannot read minds (my crystal ball is on the fritz).

And you do have a valid point - lots of 'country' folks are just the holders of lots of land and don't have the umph to use it to the best of its ability.


I think someone with either farming or military background and/or lots of family (chosen or blood) will have the advantage over singles and ones with no training.

Angie


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

silvergirl said:


> Let's not forget that bullets will end up being a valuable commodity - particularly with the current limitations on ammo availability due to UN interference in the world market and the upcoming restrictions that will likely be imposed internally, here in the States. Maybe barter would not be a bad idea with the remaining city folk... if there are any...


yes but there in lies a weakness for many , especially those relying on semi auto military type firearms. Once that ammo is used they will be up a creek and all that fancy rifle will be good for is a door stop or bean pole .
Making powder is the easy part , very few who can make powder would have a clue on how to make reliable primers and even fewer the knowledge to produce the chemicals required let alone the cells and anodes required . 
Then you have those who feel they can fire from a fortified position which is great unless the folks your firing at have bigger guns or mortars .

The real problem with those mad max wannabe's is that theres someone out there with knowledge and ability . those who can produce fuel and water are going to be in the best positions , those that can go mobile or provide an easier means will be the ones who not only survive but thrive


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## End of the Road (Apr 19, 2006)

Can someone tell me what the "big-V" is?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

ME too, What is the "Big-V" that is referred to.

Angie


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> yes but there in lies a weakness for many , especially those relying on semi auto military type firearms. Once that ammo is used they will be up a creek and all that fancy rifle will be good for is a door stop or bean pole .


I dunno, ANgelina Jolie had some mean skillz with an empty semi automatic mililtary type firearm in TR2. Put the bayonet on...

HEY---MAD MAX was the defender of the weak and good. Sure I wanna be like him:hobbyhors:

I'm cyphering the big V means the big VIRUS


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## Kari (Mar 24, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> ME too, What is the "Big-V" that is referred to.
> 
> Angie


Big-V is probably referring to the next Big Virus.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for the translation.

Angie


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Whether or not one survives depends as much, if not more, on the environment than on one's skills. I'm reading a neat book by Neil Strauss, _Emergency_. In Lesson 31 he's discussing SHTF stuff with a friend when he has an epiphany of sorts. 

"The so-called system is something we take for granted. We depend on it to give us an inexhaustible supply of electricity, water, food, gas, Internet, phone service, garbage removal, long-distance transportation, civil order, twenty-four-hour convenience stores, and _Seinfeld_ reruns. But what would happen if it stopped working - and, suddenly, there was nothing to depend on?"

For those who live in apartments or in houses on small lots - what's going to happen after several days of no water, no electricity, no garbage pick-up, no flushing the toilet? What happens if Gramps has a heart attack & dies? What happens if the baby gets sick enough to need a doctor? What if mom isn't breastfeeding & runs out of formula? 

So many people can't even handle small emergencies - a big one with everyone in the same boat is going to be really bad - not to mention smelly. 

A short story that was made into a Twilight Zone episode sticks in my mind. One family prepares for disaster, their friends & neighbors don't. When disaster comes, the friends are so desperate for help they try to destroy the bomb shelter of the prepared one just to get in. 

I know I couldn't survive in the city for any length of time, just as I couldn't survive in the Mojave desert. I simply don't have the skills. I'm fairly certain I _can_ survive here - I can grow more of my food than I do now & I know where the water is. I also know my neighbors, which will be a help & which will be a hindrance.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Every town has a La Leche League. Lol.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

pickapeppa said:


> Every town has a La Leche League. Lol.


How is that supposed to help a non-nursing mother? I was a LLL leader & worked with several women who wanted to nurse adopted babies or resume breastfeeding. It isn't something you can turn on & off. 

If you were thinking that LLL members could breastfeed babies of others, that is not always an option. Not all members are nursing & able to wet nurse, not all babies who have been bottle-fed can latch onto the breast.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

I'm just going to give up on trying to interject humor.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

pickapeppa said:


> I'm just going to give up on trying to interject humor.


You forgot your smilie!  :rock: :hobbyhors :shrug:


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Bonnie L said:


> You forgot your smilie!  :rock: :hobbyhors :shrug:


Oops. My bad.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Peppa's posts pretty much have an assumed smilie. Sometimes a crazy face too.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Peppa's posts pretty much have an assumed smilie. Sometimes a crazy face too.


:rotfl:



At least someone here gets me.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I think no matter where you live, if you aren't prepped, physically and mentally, with a will to adapt, you're pretty much a goner. Face it, the prepped are in the minority.... but the numbers are growing.

As far as a peaceful harmonious society, where bartering can go on in an orderly fashion... sure, I can see that happening. I can see LA being a very very nice place to live, after TEOTW. I can see peace and harmony everywhere...... but only after the days of terror, the gnashing of teeth, whatever you're worst nightmare might be... after the great thinning has occured. Pretty much our whole society lives beyond it's means... our current system is not sustainable (when cheap power disappears, it's all going to fall apart). Once the 'Valley' has approached it's pre-Columbian population levels, it could be a Paradise, Or, it could be similar to the lifestyle of the natives that were found there.

I might be able to survive in the LA Basin, but not peacefully, till the 'thinning' had occured.

Knowledge has always been a good thing to know. Currently smart people can thrive. We live in an ordered society. There is law and order. When there is no more Law and Order, those folks that aren't smart, and armed, will be at a disadvantage. I'd recommend placing oneself under the protectorate of a very powerful person, if one doesn't have the means to protect oneself. Till the thinning is over, letting it be known that you are 'smart' might get oneself into trouble, in a slavery sort of way.

Knowing the innermost secrets of the entire universe is worthless if you don't have bread for the belly. Imho, the smartest move is to know the 'secrets', but also have all the tools one needs for the rest of their lives, a good supply of seeds for planting, enough food to last through a bad harvest, and enough firepower to keep the wild dogs at bay.

Speaking of which, I've got to prep one of my 10-22's for 'squirrel duty' in the morning. Yesterday morning I had two trees with a few gallons of plums on them. Today they're gone. Also noticed a few pear trees have been stripped. Saw a squirrel Saturday headed thataway. Tomorrow the squirrels will get either stiffened or educated.


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