# need some advice--help



## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

went into the hives tonight. i have superseder cells and swarm cells. i thought they did not swarm the first year? took the swarm cells off. i had added another box a couple weeks ago and noticed last week that they werent filling up the last two frames on the bottom box so i was going to move some frames to the top box and move the frames in the bottom box around so the empty ones were closer to the middle. when i went into that box today the frames in the bottom box were mostly filled and they were working on the top box already. this box had the swarm cells and superceder cells. i took the swarm cells off and there were pupae in them, i did not take the superceder cells off--should i? i didnt go thru the whole box, my main purpose was to see how full the frames where. but i am thinking i should go back out and go thru them real through. i think i am going to go out and switch the boxes from top to bottom. i just added the second box to the second hive but all the frames were full. for now i am going out to switch the boxes hopefully some one reads this by the time i come back in. Tom i lost your cell # number would you mind sending it to me again please.


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## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

went out and swapped the bottom boxes up to the top and switched a couple full frames to the new bottom box opened up the superceder cells and didnt find anymore swarm cells. do they automatically make superceder cells when they are getting ready to swarm? it just seems kinda hard to believe the quenne isnt good anymore--there were alot more bees in there than last week and alot of eggs and pupae.


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

they make queen cells when the swarm, the old queen goes with the swarm, and the hive gets a new queen.
I would not tare down queen cells you could end up queenless.
instead make a new hive with them and some of the bees from the hive, they will think they swarmed and the pressure will be off.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I had that happen with a great Queen, so I did a double split (removed swarm cells, took all the Queen cells and divided between the 2 splits). I put the new splits on either side of the original, turning their entrances slightly away, provided syrup/water, and closed them up for two days (screened bottom board, and ventilated well). After two days, no swarming, and I ended up with 3 hives.


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## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

Typically we categorize queen cells on the bottoms of frames as swarm cells, and queen cells on the sides of frames as supercedure cells, BUT it's important to remember this is a rule of thumb. What's MORE important to remember is that a colony will not make both supercedure cells and swarm cells at the same time. A colony may be planning to supercede, or to swarm, but not both at the same time!

You had package bees if I remember? It is not unusual for package bees to supercede. They tend to let the original queen lay for a couple weeks so that they have a supply of brood and then they decide to raise a queen of their own choosing. 

As no1cowboy said, it's nearly always a bad idea to cut out queen cells, regardless of whether they are swarm cells or supercedure. Since it's unlikely (but certainly not impossible) that a new package would be planning to swarm, you have to assume that what you're seeing are supercedure cells. Leave them.


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## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

well i didnt know what to do so i did get rid of those cells---hopefully giving them more room will stop the swarm? dang it.
i didnt expect this this year so i dont have anymore boxes made yet--a guy has been in the process of making them for me though, i'll have to call him.
i hope i didnt screw it up too bad. 
i did have cells on the bottom and the top though--didnt realize the bottom were queen cells too---i sure do have alot to learn. i feel horrible for wrecking the cells now, i guess all i can do at this point is cross my fingers and watch and get ready for this to possibly happen again


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

One of the biggest complaints hear at this time of year at bee club meetings are about queens in packages. Many seem to fail and become drone layers many more just don't seem to meet the standards the workers set and are superceded and others swarm.

When you run in to some thing like you discribed I get another hive set up and start looking for the queen. Once I have found her I move her and a bunch of capped brood frames with out queen cells along with a bunch of shook in beesto the new hive set up. That way I feel I have made a artifical swarm and room in the old hive to keep their mind off swarming.

Some times if I find dozens of queen cells in the hive I'll make up a couple of nucs in much the same way to take advantage of the queen cells the workers provided to me.


Also I presume you did indeed see eggs when you were checking the hive. If not some thing could have happened to the queen causeing the workers to want a new queen.


 Al


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## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

yes i did see alot of eggs so i knew the queen was there. i am trying to get set up with another box or two in case they keep going like this. i think i just was to slow in getting the second box on and hopefully i gave them enough room so they wont swarm but it sounds unlikely? i have yet to see the queen but as soon as i get set up with another box if they are still doing this i will make a new hive. once they get the swarm cells started can they be stopped by giving them more room in the hive or they just going to keep trying?

how late in the year is too late to set up another hive--i wont be making two weak hives out of one will i?

the bee club is meeting tonight but unfortunately i cant attend. thanks for the input--i appreciate it.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Normally once they get in the swarm modeaboutthe only thing to do really is to find that queen, put her in another hive. Shake a good amount of worker bees in with her along w2ith a few frames of capped brood.

As I was doing the above to one of my hives in a out yard this morning I was thinking about your hive since mine didn't have any cells in it.

I thought if she lived close enough to Mann Lake she could run to their store and get some of those card board nuc boxes for a tempory houseing unit till a full sized hive could be set up.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=1188&idCategory=13

Then I saw the wood ones that wouldn't take long to assemble for just a bit more. Well DA there isn't a bottom board to them so for get that idea.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=2135&idCategory=20


Since swarms issue as late as July the bees must feel july isn't to late. And no you should not end up with with two weak hives.

 Al


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## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

i have another box but only have short foundation to go in it, could i use that till the other stuff gets here in a couple days? i drilled a 3/4" hole by one of the handles for more ventilation could i just rig a piece of plywood on the top and bottom for a few days? 

i have been doing alot of reseach today and looking at alot of pics of swarm cells and superseder cells. my book did not show real good pics of them but looking on the internet--i am convinced that what i was calling superseder cells are in fact drone cells. they were at the very top of the frame. and it was like a bubble on top--it wasnt like a peanut.

but i am pretty sure about the swarm cells but i am going to try and use some ones phone to take pics of them and post. or maybe i will try and get to town for another card reader for my camera. i scraped them off and kept them in tact.

i do have a small box too--i have to assemble it and the frames but i guess the box wouldnt need to painted for now.
if i do that could i just swap out another small box when i get one painted and just watch and add a deep on top of it?


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Around here July isn't too late. You'll get no honey from either mother or daughter hive, but there are big honey flows in both August and September, enough for frugal yankee bees to make it.

People have a prejudice against aster honey, just because it's the color of molasses and you can eat it with a fork. The bees seem not to care.


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## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

aster honey sounds interesting--there are alot of asters here

it was way to windy by the time i got home to go into the hives. hopefully tomorrow


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Yes you can put them in a small box and switch them latter. You can also add a deep on top of the small box too latter. the bees could care less if there is paint or not.
If you use s hort frames in a deep box you couldpossably end up with a mess on the bottom bars.

 Al


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