# Free solar barn in Ontario



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

They build the barn the farmer gets to use it. They get the power..... Havn't read it all but what do you guys think?

http://www.haysolar.com/index.php?page=free-hay-barn


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Im ambivalent.What if the company went bankrupt,would you have lease issues?


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

That kind of lease is an asset the company would have for a court to sell off and settle debts. It's still a contract to whom ever buys the asset. Somethign to check for sure but it is nice to hear a company encourage anyone to get a copy of the lease and go over it with your lawyer. Hardly a high pressure tactic. The problem is it is a low walled barn only 6 feet high at the back and 16 at the front. It would suit sheep but not machinery. Guess I could store hay in it, and the lower machines like the discbine and tillage. 40x200 is a nice size! 20 year contract is a long haul sort of thing for a shed though, and it's an awfully big roof to clear off snow from.


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I wasnt clear on time frame either,they talk about the first lease,do you own the solar after 20 years?I wondered about the snow clearing part too,and do you get 'fined' if the power doesnt produce? I saw the part where they maintain it and you dont get the 500 bucks.For 500 if it snows a lot I sure wouldnt clear em for that.

I would ask for customer list and talk to some lessors.

Does seem like a cool way to get a lot of space.


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

From the FAQ page:



> Am I allowed to get the free farm building and annual revenue but leave the barn empty?
> 
> 
> No, the barn must have a reasonable use approved by the municipality and Hay Solar reserves the right to sub-lease your barn to another farm if it remains empty or unused for more than 12 consecutive months.


If the building is on my property, why would it matter to them if I left it empty or not?


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> If the building is on my property, why would it matter to them if I left it empty or not?


That is a little weird isn't it!? My guess is there is a tie into OMAFRA (Ontario Minestry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs) money somewhere that says it must be a used barn on a registered farm yadda yadda yadda.... pure speculation on mind part. I missed where it says they'll pull off snow and keep the $500. 

There was a magazine article I read before the website info and it seems to do own the solar set up after 20 years. I'm wondering what good it would be truthfully, and worse am I obliged to replace it and sell power to Ontario Power Generating Co if it is kaput??


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Quite a few of these lease deals have poped up. Thus far the bunch of wrenches I'm in contact with have not reported anything good or bad..........Yet.
So no track record.........Yet.

What would that size building do for your "taxes" . . ??
Or not . . .because its Ag . . . .??

In my area that $500 could/would not be enough for "snow clearing" . . . . .thats a mighty large area to de snow.
Here abouts we get up to (record) 22 feet of snow.
My 4 pole mounted racks are a hand full to de snow with a 8' handled brush.
So what kind of snow fall does your area get . .??

By into it . .or let 'them' take all (the KWH) . . . .flip a coin..........


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Duh! Thats probably it Jim...... property taxes, farm buildings aren't really taxed here but if it were rented by a registered farmer and used as a farm building..... it'd regain the tax status. The snow loads loads we get, near zip to ungodly amounts, and yes I remember our 5000 sq foot building nearly completely snowbound and loaded with 3 feet of snow on the roof. Tempers my enthusiasm for sure.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Don't get me wrong . . .It will not be me trying to discourage some one from using PV.
I make an issue about the snow because when I install a PV system for a customer it has to be such that the customer can remove the snow reasonably easy . . .because the "penalty" for not removing the snow is simple . . . . . . .No Output.

When I read the link I got to thinking about removing snow on a roof that large would be very difficult.

Also that is a very flat angle for a latitude in our northern area. It would lose a lot of out put in the winter months.

I am near the 45th Lat 'line'. My arrays are close to 60 degrees . . .for max out put in the winter . . . .I leave them there year around. 

just another $0.03 of thoughts.


----------



## SGFarm (Apr 26, 2008)

I have just sent in the application for an application. 

I will see what the lease says, but we desparately need a new barn as ours has pretty significant roof / strucutral damage. 

I have heard that the solar cells get pretty hot and will melt any snow on them quickly. I might need to run the blower along the south wall to clear any drifts. 

Far less about the $500 than the oppourtunity for a new barn pretty cheap. I will still have to spend some money to put in water and hydro and cement floor under part of it. 

We will see. Nothing signed yet. 

Mike


----------



## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

My neighbour is all over this so I did some reading.

Some folks have had problems with not being able to connect with the grid using the equipment provided by this company. They have had to invest some of their own money to meet compliance for their local utility. I'm not sure how much of a variance there is from region to region but I'd want an assurance that haysolar has what it takes. I live on an Island with a tenuous connection to the mainland. Our constant power surges are tough on equipment.


----------



## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Talked to their local rep a couple of times. He didn't have nearly enough answers for me to bother going much farther with it.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Why yes the panels do get hot . . . . when the sun is shining........

But in my neck of the woods it gets pretty darn overcast when it gets to snowing.
No heat. . .no melting............

And with out >My< help even a couple inches of snow would totally block any 'output'.
Even at a 50 degree angle that snow just sits there . . . even on a bright sunny day.........

Yes guys look very carefully at the fine print.


----------



## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree with Jim-mi, that roof pitch seems way too low to be effective in the winter. Then you add the snow problem.

Their FAQ says that you are responsible for clearing snow and dust from the panels.

They say right near the start that you are responsible for your lawyer's fees.

Did you read their reference? It basically says that the principal of Hay Solar has vast knowledge and expertise in the field of solar power and that greening Ontario is a good idea. Gee, the person supplying the reference doesn't have a Hay Solar barn, nor does he talk about getting one.

Uh, I'm opinionated, but I'd stay away from this one ... unless you are just itching to pay a lawyer to tell you the same thing.


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

dezingg said:


> I agree with Jim-mi, that roof pitch seems way too low to be effective in the winter. Then you add the snow problem....


I actuallly disagree. Being a grid tied system they are looking for maximum return. With snow, more cloudy days, and shorter days in the winter you can produce more power over the course of the year with it maximized for summer production.


----------



## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

wy_white_wolf said:


> I actuallly disagree. Being a grid tied system they are looking for maximum return. With snow, more cloudy days, and shorter days in the winter you can produce more power over the course of the year with it maximized for summer production.


Good point. I keep forgetting that most systems are connected to the grid. 

I still wonder how one is supposed to clear/clean such a large array.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Well 'they' must sharpen their pencils differently than I . . . . . .if they put up with greatly reduced out put for 4 to 5 months of the year . . . . .because of that 'flat' angle.
Doesn't make sense to me.
All their "vast expertise" leaves me wondering. . . . . . 


As to the snow issue, I'm speaking from 15 years experience with my own system.
Come winter time with a good snow cover on the ground, on a bright sunny day, its common for me to read --through my metering-- a 50% increase in out put !!.
The Batterys are topped off quickly and then the excess goes into electric heaters. I have 'off set' many many gallons of propane with this setup.
To me having Ma Nature provide "warmth in the winter" is better than putting another $00.09 (one KWH) of energy back into "the grid" . . . .and using another gallon of propane $2.00 a gallon.

Excuse all my ranting here . .but winter time production is very important to me.


----------



## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Just got another copy of their brochure and information that they're trying to present to a farm organization I'm part of. Doesn't exactly leave me breathless with anticipation. Very amateurish, with building specs I wouldn't want, not even a picture of an existing building, just some poor artist's conception drawings of buildings that look like they'll fall over by spring.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

One other thought............
It could be that "they" are going for the 'less expensive' buildings using trusses with just the 'standard' 4\12 pitch.
OK . . . you contractors out there tell me how much more cost involved for trusses with up to a 12\12 pitch.

Even for the southern portion of Ontario down by Lake Erie a 12\12 would be a good thing...............



Still having trouble with those guys "vast expertise".


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> ....To me having Ma Nature provide "warmth in the winter" is better than putting another $00.09 (one KWH) of energy back into "the grid" . . . .and using another gallon of propane $2.00 a gallon.
> 
> Excuse all my ranting here . .but winter time production is very important to me.


And it should be for an off-grid system.

Maybe one thing you are missing is that Ontario will soon have a $0.50 feed-in tarriff for solar



> The government also announced it is committed to creating green-collar jobs in Ontario. New rules will require that both wind and solar projects contain a certain percentage of Ontario labour and product content. Specifically, the rules stipulate a 25-per-cent requirement for wind projects and 50-per-cent for solar. Those requirements will increase for solar power in Jan. 2011, and for wind projects a year later.


I have seen studies that show a PV system maximized for summer production can outproduce a neutral system or one maximized for winter when hooked to the grid. Between 4/12 to 6/12 slope would maximize a system for summer production for many locations in Ontario.


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Found another link it's *$0.802 for PV with a 20 year contract*. (page 14)

http://microfit.powerauthority.on.ca/pdf/microFIT-Program-Overview.pdf


----------



## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Well, I do know that some of the prices being paid to solar/wind suppliers in Ontario is ridiculously high. If anyone wanted to get in on the FIT or MicroFIT programs, now is probably the time. 

Prices being paid are so high that I cannot see this program lasting very long - sooner or later the government will realize that they cannot sustain this program.


----------



## majik (Feb 23, 2005)

The "get while the gettings good" time may have already passed, at least in my neck of the woods. MicroFit, the Standrad Offer Program and other payment plans have made small scale home generation very popular. Add to that the large number of wind and solar "farms" by large companies and the grid feed-in capacity is at a limit. Ontario Power Authority is now saying that they may not be able to meet all their contracts. For that reason, we're thinking about a co-gen system that will keep us off the grid entirely. Be cautious, check with the OPA and don't assume that you can get on the grid, regardless of what any supplier says.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sure gotta wonder about that $0.80 figure..........

Joe Public will be seeing a 3-400% increase in their uty rates to sustain that.

stay tuned.............


----------



## ca2devri (Feb 29, 2008)

I went to one of Hay Solar seminars (near Waterloo) last week. It seems like a legitimate thing. They are trying to benefit from the "fit" program from people who own land but can't afford to make the investment themselves.

I think if they're successful they'll make good money on it over 20 years and the cost of the barn itself will easily be paid for. The farmer gets the barn paid for in exchange for the use of his property in applying for the program. It's hard to see where there's a big downside. I think the highest failure likelihood is that you sign the lease and they never succeed in getting a barn up on your place.

I think I'm going to sign the lease with them. I live in an area with very low snowfall (just N of lake erie near London) and I can't even imagine their being a significant buildup for me. The only real cost to me that I can see is the increase in property taxes because of a new farm building. Given that I imagine myself needing this building space in the next 5 years, it would still be a fabulous deal.

If the company goes under and the deal falls apart, I would say a worst-case scenario is that the panels and barn are ripped apart for salvage. It's hard to imagine that happening too as it would seem to be more lucrative to leave them up and collect the income.

Since I'm not getting the income for the panels, it's totally up to Hay Solar to ensure maximum production from the PV. They know what they are doing and aren't going to put up $750k buildings that don't maximize return. The output during the winter is going to be much less than summer even with no snow so I think the building design makes sense for what they are doing.

The farmer owns the building after 20 years, but I understand that the solar panels and technology itself may have little value left at that point. Still, even if I just have a barn with a funny roof left, what's the big deal?

Now, we'll see what my lawyer says. I'm going to talk to him this week about the lease. I'll try to keep the conversation short though as he's not cheap!

Chris


----------



## ca2devri (Feb 29, 2008)

By the way, anyone else here signed the lease or had the Hay Solar people to their farm?


----------



## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

Evening,
At a 12 /12 pitch your barn would have a 6 ft wall and a 46ft wall not good
At a 6 /12 pitch would have a 6 ft and 26ft wall still not good
If you could build it into the side of a hill it help.
What roof up there will last 20yrs? and who get to repair it under their panels??
And 2 pts for the excess heating your own barn.

steve


----------



## D Lynn (May 26, 2008)

Jim-mi said:


> Sure gotta wonder about that $0.80 figure..........
> 
> Joe Public will be seeing a 3-400% increase in their uty rates to sustain that.
> 
> stay tuned.............


I second that ... and what OntarioMan said too. 
My Brother is all into putting up Solar in his back forty with the same type of deal. I just don't "get" who's gonna pay for it.


----------

