# dead rabbit, need help! Please...



## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

I found one of my two main breeder bucks dead this morning. The buck was about 9 months old, and a small mix breed. Based on his rigor and the fact that he wasn't quite cold yet, I think he died about the time my husband left for work.

I examined his body, haven't cut him open yet, but I may do this because the situation is so serious...or maybe see if I can get a vet to do a necropsy...

He had blood coming from both his mouth and his nose, no other signs of trauma, no other signs of illness. The cage has 1 inch mesh, very heavy wire, and baby-saver on the floor. The cage door was closed.

I'm concerned that my husband, who has been emotionally abusive, may have killed the rabbit out of a desire to hurt me...DH's behavior was more strange than usual last night, and it seemed like he reacted weirdly to my cooking rabbit for supper, but he is very good at hiding his feelings (except for anger). This was the first time since I married him that I cooked rabbit for supper...but we have been discussing this for years, and he has a good friend who eats rabbit frequently, and my husband ate the rabbit we bought from the grocery store. 

Has anyone had anything like this happen, where a rabbit turns up dead with the only symptom being blood coming from his nose and mouth?


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

Ummm, I'm not sure if I'll be the only one, but I think that your main issue has little to do with rabbits? If you think he could do something like that, you have - at the minimum - a failure to communicate, and - quite possibly - a person whom you live with that is capable of - and willing to - hurt you deeply.

- Did you ask him if he knew what happened?
- Does he normally take a passive-aggressive approach to his emotional abuse?
- Are you trying to find out if it is "likely" that the rabbit "just died" to give yourself an emotional / mental "out" from the assumption that he did it?

R


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## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

I took the rabbit to the vet to be sent to the University of Florida for a necropsy. 

Good questions.

I did not think he was at this possible level of abuse...and I'll be brief since this forum is about rabbits: I'm working to try to keep the potential for harm to anyone to a minimum. Besides the abuse issue, there is a 50% possibility that he has the gene for Huntingtons' Disease, which sometimes causes the sufferer to go violently insane; so this may be a sudden change of behavior due to Huntington's.

This is why I was asking if anyone had anything like this happen. If there is some disease that could cause these symptoms in a rabbit, then I'm justified in waiting to do something drastic about my husband. If no one who breeds rabbits here has ever had this happen I'll be much more careful...maybe I'll get a pistol and a permit to carry...

I also would feel some responsibility to keep the rabbits safe from undue harm and possibly torture; although I advocate rabbits for food, I would consider it to be morally wrong to kill rabbits solely for the purpose of venting anger.

One possibility has occurred to me: rattlesnake venom can cause a loss of clotting ability, and I would think could explain the bleeding from the nose and mouth...I didn't find a snake bite, but if the bite didn't bleed it could be very hard to find.


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

... hadn't thought of that! It sure could be.

I wish you luck... I've never seen a rabbit dead like that from "nothing". Every time I've seen something similar it's from another animal crushing it and leaving it to die.

R


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## Michael Leferink (Jul 12, 2003)

Anyone who has raised rabbits knows better than to hit one. Rabbbits (like dogs) remember being hit and can become overly defensive. Having said that, I must admit that I have done it. I reached into a cage to clean out wet feed from the feeder and the doe latched onto my arm. Without thinking I instinctively thumped her on the head. Luckly, I realized what I was about to do and managed to slow down and lighten the impact. The doe was startled, but unhurt.

As to finding a rabbit dead, it happens. Bleading from the mouth and nose (also ears) can be caused by ruptured blood vessels/arteries in the brain. This can be caused by stroke, aneurism or concussion. Heat strokes and birth defects are sometimes at fault. Also, during rough play (running/jumping) or from being startled a rabbit can ram into a feeder or some hard part of the hutch or cage. Last fall I found two fryers, in the same cage, dead from broken backs. It had stormed the night before and I assume they were frightened by the thunder. It was not the first time nor the last. Another thing, was there any mucus with the blood? I'm thinking sinus infection or pneumonia.

By all means, if you have reason to believe your husband has issues, try to get help for him and protect yourself. But know that animals, especially small animals, sometimes drop dead with little or no warning. 

Good luck,

MikeL


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## Rosarybeads (Oct 21, 2004)

Okay, it sounds to me like blunt trauma. The only time I had rabbits (out of hundreds that I've raised) bleed out of the nose was when I was culling them, by knocking them over the head or swinging them and hitting their heads on a post, etc... (sorry for the grapics) I have never heard of a rabbit bleeding out of their noses otherwise, in all my experience of rabbit raising. And I've even had rabbits break their backs, and have heart attacks from getting scared, etc... the only time there was blood was when I did it. 

Did you happen to notice if the back or back feet were broken, or if the head looked like it had been hit? I guess you will find out with the necropsy, but it does sound like trauma. I'd be surprised if a rabbit could cause himself so much trauma that it made his nose bleed, but it COULD be an extremely rare case. But like I've said, I've never seen it, with raising rabbits for 10 years and having a couple hundred breeders at all times.

Anyone else know of anything PROBABLE it could be?


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## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

Thank you for your responses...

No there was no mucus coming from his nose, and yes I know what you mean Rosarybeads...I had just slaughtered a rabbit by breaking it's neck, and the bleeding from the nose and mouth was identical...

This particular rabbit was not nervous, not like a few others I have. And it just occurred to me that I should be culling for nervousness...the nervous ones are just hard to handle and more prone to doing stupid things out of fear...I'm going to start a thread about this...


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

ive had pet rabbits panic and bounce off the cage wire wals, and bust themselves up pretty badly, I dont recall one ever dying from it though.


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## Tracy (May 2, 2002)

VHD can cause rabbits to bleed out the nose and ears. This is from the Merricks vet manual:

Rabbit Calicivirus Disease
( Viral hemorrhagic disease) 


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Rabbit calicivirus disease was first reported in 1984 in the Peopleâs Republic of China, from whence it spread through the domestic and wild rabbit populations in continental Europe. The first report of the virus in the Western hemisphere was in Mexico City in 1988. Mexico successfully eradicated the virus by 1992. Recent outbreaks of rabbit calicivirus disease occurred in Australia (1995), New Zealand (1997), and Cuba (1997). In 1995, as a result of a laboratory accident in southern Australia, the virus escaped and killed 10 million rabbits in 8 wk. Rabbit calicivirus disease was confirmed in a group of 27 rabbits in Iowa in April, 2000, in the USA. The source of infection was not determined. The outbreak was contained, the virus eradicated, and the USA remains disease free. 
Rabbit calicivirus disease is highly infectious in European rabbits ( Oryctolagus ), but cottontail rabbits and jackrabbits are not susceptible. Humans and other mammals are not affected. The calicivirus is highly contagious and can be transmitted by direct contact with infected rabbits or indirectly by fomites. Infection results in a peracute febrile disease causing hepatic necrosis, enteritis, and lymphoid necrosis, followed by massive coagulopathy and hemorrhages in multiple organs. Rabbits show few clinical signs and die within 6-24 hr of fever onset. Morbidity is often ~100% and mortality 60-90%. This is a reportable disease.


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## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

Thanks...I thought I had read that some disease could cause excessive bleeding like that...

But that disease is extremely unlikely - besides the fact that the Merck contributors state that it was contained...my original herd has been here for 9 months or longer. I brought in one buck 3 or 4 months ago; he had something wrong with him, possibly vent disease or some kind of cancer, and I culled him out, six? weeks ago (I'd have to check my records). I had bred him to two nursing does before he had signs of illness, and they and their kits are isolated from the rest of the herd, and so far there's been no signs of disease...The matings with the new buck produced no kits. The "possibly exposed" litters are about three months old now...The buck that died is part of the unexposed herd, one of my original herd that's been here about 10 months.

Next time I bring in a new rabbit, I'll isolate him or her for more than a month...Murphy's Law would dictate that I isolate him a month, breed him, and only THEN he has symtoms of illness!

Well, it's been sent to the University of Florida...and it just occurred to me that if it IS some serious disease I may receive a visit from state officials with orders to cull my whole herd...but if that happens there's one good thing, no rabbits have left the farm...


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

I was talking to someone about minks a few weeks ago. They used to raise them and he told me that when they were starting out they placed the cages where the sun shone in on them (it was a roofed barn without sidewalls). The first hot day, they came home to find every mink dead in that row, and they bled from nose and mouth.

Not sure if that's a help to you or not, but if heat can do that to a mink it's reasonable to think that it might happen to rabbits, who also can't take the heat.

Jennifer


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## Rosarybeads (Oct 21, 2004)

Sunshine, if you have a buck or doe with vent disease again, don't cull them, you can treat it. We used some type of ointment (please forgive my braindeadness, for I forgot the type) on them that clears it up, and if you don't breed them for a couple of weeks after it's cleared up, they can't pass it. I am sure if you google "rabbits vent disease treatment" you could find out how to treat it. No point in culling otherwise good rabbits.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Sunshine, I missed seeing this topic until this morning. I am very concerned for you. Emotional abuse can escalate rapidly and *if* your husband did indeed kill the rabbit to hurt you, the situation could get suddenly out of hand. I urge you not to wait for the results of the neropsy to take whatever steps you can to protect yourself.

A lot of questions come to mind... not that I expect you to answer them all! But I am wondering how you handled the situation when your husband came home that day. Did you mention that a rabbit had died mysteriously? What was his reaction?

How long will it take to get the results from the U of F? What did the vet say when you took the rabbit in and made your request? Is there someone safe you can confide in, such as a therapist or clergyman or trusted friend? You must feel very alone if you must keep your suspicions entirely to yourself.

I hope it turns out that the rabbit died of natural causes, but are you preparing yourself to accept the alternative *NOW* before you get the results? It will be hard to think straight the day you get the results if your worst suspicions turn out to be true.

I wish you _bon courage_ for the days ahead. I am sure all of us who read your post are feeling for you in this most unnerving situation.


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## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

The rabbit was in a shaded area, and has a piece of silvered tarp over his cage...I lost one to sunstroke years ago when I place a cage in the shade for because I was cleaning my cages or something, and the shade moved and he died...but he didn't bleed from mouth or nose.

Yes, MaggieJ, you have some really good points...sadly, I have been in this type of situation before (and I am giving up men from now on, this is the last straw!)

I'll have to get back with you later, gotta go...


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## myrandaandkids (Apr 15, 2006)

I Had A Rex That Died Exactly That Way When I Was Younger, And We Cut Him Open And Found That He Had A Very Large Splinter Way Down In The Back Of His Throte And The Vet Told Us Later When We Took Him In That He Had Panniced, Hemoraged And Then Gave Himself A Stroke And Died, Horrid Way To Go, But At Least We Knew To Seal The Wood In The Pen After That.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

I know this isn't any of my business and you're asking about the rabbit... but please think twice about the gun and the permit to carry. Guns can be taken while you sleep and used against you. I'm glad you're thinking of all the possibilities, and thinking to protect yourself if it should be necessary. Be careful how you choose to protect yourself.


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## BellsBunnies (Sep 18, 2004)

Vent can be treated with Dura Pen or Benzathine Penicillian and any rabbit that has been bred would also need to be treated.

A case of VHD in June of 2005 found in 200 rabbits in Indiana.
www.showbunny.com/RVHD/RCDVHDflyer06-05.pdf


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## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

This is so weird that I've hesitated to post on this forum since I started this thread...

The U. of Florida was supposed to perform the necropsy the Saturday following the day I posted this. So far, they haven't gotten back to the vet with the results...one of the vet's receptionists is supposed to call them today to find out why...

I've got a "bad" feeling about this...I would bet money that they've lost the rabbit, or that they're waiting for some obscure culture to mature - when all I needed to know was whether the rabbit died of a broken neck or not...

By the end of the week I'm going to be in the vet's office talking about a refund of at least part of the money - it was $175.

The other 22 rabbits continue to be well...no signs of vent disease - I still think it's very likely the one I culled had some kind of cancer, he was old (the seller works at a feed store and she said he was young, but she was wrong). 
I re-bred one of the does that had been exposed, but the litter was lost, my fault - I didn't get the nest box ready in time...

Please forgive a bit of ramble...I had planned on keeping this doe's genes in my herd anyway, but now that I've discovered that she'll actually kindle in the heat of the summer, I think her genes are even more important. She's some kind of smaller mix breed...maybe the size of Dutch or a little smaller, but she's got a white background with huge brown spots.

Thunderstorm approaching, getting offline for a while.


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## sunshine estate (Mar 31, 2006)

Got the results back from the necropsy...the rabbit died of a broken neck. I'm going to the sheriff's office with a copy of the written report, whic is what the officer who came out suggested I do...it's not much, but it does establish a sort of evidence...

Thank you for your help.


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## Tracy (May 2, 2002)

I rabbit can die of a broken neck by being startled. I have had a few rabbits that were just plain skitso. Good luck.


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## Rosarybeads (Oct 21, 2004)

Please let us know how it goes, okay?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Sunshine, was there any indication in the necropsy of how this could have happened? For instance, if someone broke its neck on purpose there may have been considerable bruising... especially if the person was not experienced at killing rabbits.

I think you are wise to submit a copy of the report - and suggest that the original be put somewhere very safe. It never hurts to have a paper trail in case the situation gets worse.

Please be careful -- and post a follow-up after you have been to the sherrif's office.


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