# Police Put an End to Survival Strategy



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/31/dtg_poachersbusted_2011_08_06_bk.html

*Cops have busted a group of oddball poachers in Prospect Park â a band of vagrants that was trapping and eating ducks, squirrels and pigeons.

Parks officers wrote four tickets â two for killing wildlife and two for illegal fishing â totaling $2,100 in fines during a two-day period last week.

The city would not immediately release details of the incidents, which occurred on July 17 and 18 â just days after park-goers told rangers about a âBeverly Hillbilliesâ-like scene on the southeast side of the lake, near the ice skating rink.*

Reading through the article, these guys had a degree of knowledge about them. Look at the photos of the turtle traps they had made.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Well...prospect park is not really the place for hunting. The squirrels there will practically eat out of your hand.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Sounds like a great place for hunting to me. Know any place where the deer will eat out of your hand?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

This is why parks and refuges were created. 
That was the only way to force the populace into a renters or taxpayers position.
Can't have anyone living in freedom......even at the expense of no one.

Used to be, any who chose to could flee to the wilderness.
Now the wilderness has been bought, fenced, and admission fees in place for the areas where the elite aren't lining their pockets with mineral resources.


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

But, in order to preserve the wilderness for everyone to enjoy, there must be laws and they must be enforced. Imagine if there were no laws on fishing/hunting/camping ? There would most likely be no forests left from all the fires. No game as there are pleanty of idiots who shoot deer etc just to see if they can. I am a firm believer in fishing and hunting, but the laws were created to protect the game and fish from being made like the dinosaurs. Extinct. Which is exactly what would have happened should there be no protection.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

If their survival strategy was to live off the wildlife in a NYC park, they didn't have much of a survival strategy.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

nadja said:


> But, in order to preserve the wilderness for everyone to enjoy, there must be laws and they must be enforced. Imagine if there were no laws on fishing/hunting/camping ? There would most likely be no forests left from all the fires. No game as there are pleanty of idiots who shoot deer etc just to see if they can. I am a firm believer in fishing and hunting, but the laws were created to protect the game and fish from being made like the dinosaurs. Extinct. Which is exactly what would have happened should there be no protection.


....... and, further, if there'd been a hands-off policy toward the world's populace, there would be no overpopulation and nature would happily be maintaining the sustainable balance. 
I agree with you, at this stage of the game, that people are basically idiots and need to be directed per their every decision and activity.
Without nanny states around the world, this would not be the case, and your wilderness would be quite safe.....as they had been for any number of years previous to filling the world with clueless, dependent fools.

As for doing the survival thing in NYC....... I do love the brazen sentiment.


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## Kathyhere (Sep 27, 2009)

People are so far out of touch with the real way of self sufficiency. They were calling this group animal murders &#8220;Butcher of Prospect Park,&#8221; because the only way most people know meat is the prepackaged kind in the store. That way it's all clean and neat and none of the horrors of killing and preparing. 

I don't know the real life situation of that group, but maybe they were going to give a real try of living off the land. People still have their heads buried in the sand, they are still worried about the cute little squirrels they feed out of their hand, they just cannot accept the reality of the plight the world is in. But, not if, when the SHTF hunting in the parks is not going to be a viable option, as in short order there would be hundreds, if not thousands, descending into the wilderness trying to survive. What is not caught and killed quickly, would be so skidish as next to impossible to get, at least by most.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

They were homeless vagrants according to the article.

Shame on them for not standing on the corner and asking for handouts like is expected of them.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Anybody want to know about hunting laws ask Colorado or TN. They almost destroyed other animals. 
I will say that its interesting these people were to lazy to leave NY but motivated enough to hunt. There is something to learn there


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Ernie said:


> They were homeless vagrants according to the article.
> 
> Shame on them for not standing on the corner and asking for handouts like is expected of them.


The "shame" on them is NOT running to the government teat instead of trying to survive on their own...

Perhaps a few years in a government reeducation camp will straighten them out...

The nerve of some people... /sarcasm


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Prospect park has for long time had a community of homeless people living hiden in the woods. The rapper Chuck-D from Public Enemy lived there for years. Prospect park is big, it is not a tiny little park. There was an article in the paper that the city is cracking down on foragers and poachers. The argument the rangers are making is that the there is not enough wildlife in the big city parks to sustain excessive harvesting and still leave enough food for the wildlife. Another problem is that forgaging has become a trend with hip people. So, you add up the homeless, the hipsters, and all the chinese illegal immigrants who are foraging and poaching and it really does become a problem.

I felt kind of offended by the governments stance, because like most new yorkers, we feel the parks are our, but the truth is they really are not. Public property only belongs to the public in theory, in truth the government really owns it. I think they consider the land intrusted to the government by the people, but come on, the government is a nation within our nation, they are not for the people.

The park has also been taken over by the yuppies from the near by gentrified areas, so there is no way these yuppies are going to put up with people cooking pidgeons on a fire by a park bench, while the yuppies try to jog and play volly ball.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Forerunner said:


> ....... and, further, if there'd been a hands-off policy toward the world's populace, there would be no overpopulation and nature would happily be maintaining the sustainable balance.
> I agree with you, at this stage of the game, that people are basically idiots and need to be directed per their every decision and activity.
> Without nanny states around the world, this would not be the case, and your wilderness would be quite safe.....as they had been for any number of years previous to filling the world with clueless, dependent fools.
> 
> As for doing the survival thing in NYC....... I do love the brazen sentiment.


Yes, this is the crux of it. It's a domesticated, artificial, and dependent population. They need to be heavily managed in order to subsist, thats the sad part of it all.

The city parks don't really represent anything 'wild', they are just nice little green spots in a sprawling, massive city. Hunting there is like going to the zoo and spearing a buffalo.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Good point kirk. Also, both Central And Prospect parks are both man made. They are really like giant landscaping projects. Even most of the ponds and lakes are man-made.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Survival strategy my big toe! As long as you're not picky, there's no reason to go hungry in NYC. Free food is beyond plentiful....Dang, you could even be picky and eat quite well.

Besides, eating NYC 'wildlife' sounds more like a suicide strategy than a survival one...seen far too many pigeons merrily pecking on human vomit (amongst other things) when I lived on the Bowery :shocked:


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

You have to give them credit for ingenuity and for pure sack size.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

shame on them for trying to take care of theirselves....pfftt......givin homeless people tickets...like that is going to be paid.

there was an article way back in the day on the old survival magazine where the guy lived in central park and caught and cooked stuff to see if it could be done for a few days.i think the mag was the old american survival guide.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

City Bound said:


> Prospect park has for long time had a community of homeless people living hiden in the woods. The rapper Chuck-D from Public Enemy lived there for years. Prospect park is big, it is not a tiny little park. There was an article in the paper that the city is cracking down on foragers and poachers. The argument the rangers are making is that the there is not enough wildlife in the big city parks to sustain excessive harvesting and still leave enough food for the wildlife. Another problem is that forgaging has become a trend with hip people. So, you add up the homeless, the hipsters, and all the chinese illegal immigrants who are foraging and poaching and it really does become a problem.
> 
> I felt kind of offended by the governments stance, because like most new yorkers, we feel the parks are our, but the truth is they really are not. Public property only belongs to the public in theory, in truth the government really owns it. I think they consider the land intrusted to the government by the people, but come on, the government is a nation within our nation, they are not for the people.
> 
> The park has also been taken over by the yuppies from the near by gentrified areas, so there is no way these yuppies are going to put up with people cooking pidgeons on a fire by a park bench, while the yuppies try to jog and play volly ball.


It's always good to read responses from people who actually live in the area. I think if I was homeless and wanted to live off the land a large public forest in a rural area would be a better choice.


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## Del Gue (Apr 5, 2010)

You aren't seriously telling me, that allowing hobos to poach a city parks wildlife is "ok" because they are practicing "survivalist arts"?

These are criminals.... Lock them up and feed them in prison.
Where is the problem?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Tiemp, we have freegans here, they are vegans you eat of of garbage cans because they do not believe int he system. They are not destitute bums, most of them a re middle class kids. I saw some the other day digging in trader joe's garbage.

Pigeons here are risky because of the pigeons have a build up of poison in their system from all the poison people leave out to kill them. There was a Hawk that came and lived in NYC people called him Palmal (I think) or it was Pale-male, anyway he and his lady had some kids and people were hoping the hawks would populate the city and cut down on the rats and the pigeons, but Pale-male was killed when he hunted down a pigeon and the level of the poisons in the pigeon's blood where too strong for the hawk. He had hunted many pegeons before enough to feed him, his lady, and his children, but that one pegeon did him in.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

PhilJohnson said:


> It's always good to read responses from people who actually live in the area. I think if I was homeless and wanted to live off the land a large public forest in a rural area would be a better choice.


I agree. But living in the city and being homeless provides you other resources to glean from. You could have a secret camp deep in the park, come out to get free clothes from the salvation army, check dumpsters, check garbage cans, pan handle if you are so inclined, go to a soup kitchen, stumble into a hospital, plus, hunt in the parks and fish in the rivers and ocean.

We have homeless that live underground in the subway tunnels and they are called the mole people. There is a movie about them, i think it is called the mole people. The mole people live deep underground in abandoned stations, open cavities, abandoned electical rooms. There is a whole world down there. The mole people splice into the electric down there and run heaters, air conditioners, tvs, dvd players, radios, electric toaster ovens. They have their own world.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

lol..freegans, that's a new one on me since I left NYC.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Temp, check them out it is a pretty big movement. They are all over the country. Some of them only furnish their apartments with found objects and paint their walls with found paint, and some even go off to Freegan based communities in the woods where they live in shacks made from found junk. The movement is mostly motivated by politics and philosphy. Anit-consumerism, anti-big business, mixed with animal rights and eco beliefs.


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## shaycool (Sep 1, 2004)

It was probably Jed & Granny looking for Honest John who sold them the park!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

City Bound said:


> Tiemp, we have freegans here, they are vegans you eat of of garbage cans because they do not believe int he system. They are not destitute bums, most of them a re middle class kids. I saw some the other day digging in trader joe's garbage.
> 
> Pigeons here are risky because of the pigeons have a build up of poison in their system from all the poison people leave out to kill them. There was a Hawk that came and lived in NYC people called him Palmal (I think) or it was Pale-male, anyway he and his lady had some kids and people were hoping the hawks would populate the city and cut down on the rats and the pigeons, but Pale-male was killed when he hunted down a pigeon and the level of the poisons in the pigeon's blood where too strong for the hawk. He had hunted many pegeons before enough to feed him, his lady, and his children, but that one pegeon did him in.


Pale Male is still alive, he is now 21 years old. It was one of his mates (named First Love) that ate the poisoned pigeon and died in 1997. Pale Male has had 3 mates since First Love died. Blue and then Lola, who are both presumed dead, and his present mate is Ginger.

There are 32 other pairs of red-tailed hawks now documented nesting in NYC, as well as several that are as yet un-paired.

.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

nadja said:


> But, in order to preserve the wilderness for everyone to enjoy, there must be laws and they must be enforced. Imagine if there were no laws on fishing/hunting/camping ? There would most likely be no forests left from all the fires. No game as there are pleanty of idiots who shoot deer etc just to see if they can. I am a firm believer in fishing and hunting, but the laws were created to protect the game and fish from being made like the dinosaurs. Extinct. Which is exactly what would have happened should there be no protection.


Lewis and Clark and their Corps of Discovery spent 28 months along the MO. River and in the mountains and didn't start any wildfires.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Win07_351 said:


> Lewis and Clark and their Corps of Discovery spent 28 months along the MO. River and in the mountains and didn't start any wildfires.


How do you know that? It's a serious question, not meant to be snarky. Was there somebody documenting forest fires and wildfires in that sparsely populated region at that time?

I don't disbelieve that Lewis and Clark didn't start any wildfires - I'm sure they didn't, as I believe they were trying to be responsible in their mission of discovery and would have been aware of the consequences of carelessness. The native guides they had with them would also have been aware of the consequences of carelessness with fire.

However, in this day and age when there are now hundreds of millions of people on the continent it's an undeniable fact that there are countless idiots who are not responsible about their actions in wildlife areas and couldn't care less about the consequences. You only need to look up documentation on how many wildfires are started by human carelessness to see that there is no comparison between the Lewis and Clark expeditions and some of the clueless people encroaching on wildlife areas now.

.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I think everyone should have their own cubicle, say, 5 by 5 with a 7 foot ceiling.
A bureaucrat could come around every few hours to allow bathroom functions, a couple meals a day, etc. Space is limited, so the cramped quarters-even though inadequate for productive, sustainable sleep patterns- would be crucial.
People could be allowed outside one hour per week for starters, but, after that, vitamin D could simply be artificially assimilated.
The charade of voting and political affiliation could be forever put to rest and, given the genius nature of the bureaucrat force running the system, then as now, all of the world's problems would be forever eliminated.

Life would be risk free, sterile and benign.

The earth would finally be free of the imbecile class.

So, let's see a show of hands:
Who here is sophisticated/advanced enough to determine life for the rest of us ?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There will be plenty of people to volunteer, Forerunner.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> I think everyone should have their own cubicle, say, 5 by 5 with a 7 foot ceiling.
> A bureaucrat could come around every few hours to allow bathroom functions, a couple meals a day, etc. Space is limited, so the cramped quarters-even though inadequate for productive, sustainable sleep patterns- would be crucial.
> People could be allowed outside one hour per week for starters, but, after that, vitamin D could simply be artificially assimilated.
> The charade of voting and political affiliation could be forever put to rest and, given the genius nature of the bureaucrat force running the system, then as now, all of the world's problems would be forever eliminated.
> ...


OH NO.....:run:


my vote is no....i wanna eat red meat,drink mtn dew,shoot critters and grow livestock and a big garden.

i wanna build a fire and cook it all on it...open flame...yummy....go down to creek and get a watermelon out of it i sunk a few hours ago so its good and cold....and our homemade brew.

i wanna run naked in the back 40 and then ......and after that i might even  and then .....and if i got any energy left i wanna ...then the wife can pick all the briars outta me body...well if i had a wife......:hysterical:ound:


you and me would die in a few days after being placed in a cubicle


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Elkhound, I would honestly hope so.


Ernie...... all I ask is that they have the guts to volunteer, here, for all to see.
Quit the charade and admit their superiority complex to it's logical end.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> I think everyone should have their own cubicle, say, 5 by 5 with a 7 foot ceiling.
> A bureaucrat could come around every few hours to allow bathroom functions, a couple meals a day, etc. Space is limited, so the cramped quarters-even though inadequate for productive, sustainable sleep patterns- would be crucial.
> People could be allowed outside one hour per week for starters, but, after that, vitamin D could simply be artificially assimilated.
> The charade of voting and political affiliation could be forever put to rest and, given the genius nature of the bureaucrat force running the system, then as now, all of the world's problems would be forever eliminated.
> ...


How is that gonna work for me. My table saw takes up 12 x16' space. which makes it big enough to sleep on


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Well, TN...... you'll just have to sign up as one of the bureaucrats, who, due to their advanced and superior humanity, will get to keep their homes and live in mock freedom, the only requirement being the twice-a-day boot-licking they give their masters.

Humanity, standard of living and privilege are apparently a tiered system, and there is a price of conscience to be paid to stay off the bottom level.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

City Bound said:


> I agree. But living in the city and being homeless provides you other resources to glean from. You could have a secret camp deep in the park, come out to get free clothes from the salvation army, check dumpsters, check garbage cans, pan handle if you are so inclined, go to a soup kitchen, stumble into a hospital, plus, hunt in the parks and fish in the rivers and ocean.


Yes, the city would provide many more opportunities for scrounging and scavenging for man made goods. If you're lazy it's definitely easier to be homeless in the city, especially a large one. Keeping warm is as easy as finding a large ground mounted electrical transformer and huddling near it. Most of them have a thick grouping of trees planted around them so hiding out for a while is pretty easy. Being homeless out in the forest requires much more self-reliance and hard work. I'd say the best way to be homeless is to live in a van. You just drive place to place and pan handle, pick up scrap or do enough odd jobs to pay for gas and food. When I used to go vannin' I'd park in public campsites late at night and plug in so I could run my fan during the summer although I was careful to leave before any park rangers showed up.




naturelover said:


> However, in this day and age when there are now hundreds of millions of people on the continent it's an undeniable fact that there are countless idiots who are not responsible about their actions in wildlife areas and couldn't care less about the consequences. You only need to look up documentation on how many wildfires are started by human carelessness to see that there is no comparison between the Lewis and Clark expeditions and some of the clueless people encroaching on wildlife areas now.


I agree. This isn't the 1800s any more. Population densities are up and with it so has the density of some folks heads. Heck look what happened to the buffalo, they were nearly hunted into oblivion. I might not agree with every rule but to suggest that none are needed strikes me as a wee bit foolish.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> I think everyone should have their own cubicle, say, 5 by 5 with a 7 foot ceiling.
> A bureaucrat could come around every few hours to allow bathroom functions, a couple meals a day, etc. Space is limited, so the cramped quarters-even though inadequate for productive, sustainable sleep patterns- would be crucial.


I think I like my own idea better, which is for all breeders to control themselves and stop at two. Otherwise your vision quoted above may very well become a reality instead of a fantasy.

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ernie said:


> http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/31/dtg_poachersbusted_2011_08_06_bk.html
> 
> *Cops have busted a group of oddball poachers in Prospect Park â a band of vagrants that was trapping and eating ducks, squirrels and pigeons.*


I take it that this is a city park? Who pays for the upkeep and maintenance of the park? I'm sure it's not the vagrant poachers.

.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

naturelover said:


> I think I like my own idea better, which is for all breeders to control themselves and stop at two. Otherwise your vision quoted above may very well become a reality instead of a fantasy.
> 
> .


I find the term "breeder" to be insulting, as is your Malthusian viewpoint of the world.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

naturelover said:


> Pale Male is still alive, he is now 21 years old. It was one of his mates (named First Love) that ate the poisoned pigeon and died in 1997. Pale Male has had 3 mates since First Love died. Blue and then Lola, who are both presumed dead, and his present mate is Ginger.
> 
> There are 32 other pairs of red-tailed hawks now documented nesting in NYC, as well as several that are as yet un-paired.
> 
> .


I saw a hawk in a tree near my house ripping apart and eating a sparrow. it was pretty raw, I could hear the flesh ripping and the bones cracking.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Ernie said:


> I find the term "breeder" to be insulting, as is your Malthusian viewpoint of the world.


 And yet the thrust of Malthus's objections was to 'overbreeding' of the poor and it's potential strain on the welfare state (such as it was at the time). He really didn't give a hoot about population growth amongst the more privileged classes.

Sounds familiar, eh?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ernie said:


> I find the term "breeder" to be insulting, as is your Malthusian viewpoint of the world.


LOL, Ernie, you find everything I say to be insulting and I foregive you for that because I understand it's bred in the bone with you. :kiss: However, I'm sure you'll understand if I refuse to curb my own opinions for fear of offending your delicate sensitivities.

Malthus has already been proven wrong but something both he and his dis-provers didn't take into account was the "demographic trap" that is now happening in today's society.

Do I understand correctly that you would welcome those vagrant poachers to come poach on your own land? After all, if you think it's okay for poachers to steal from city tax-payers who pay for the upkeep of city parks for their enjoyment, then it must be okay for poachers to steal from rural tax-payers like you too. Is that correct?

.


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## Sweetsong (Dec 4, 2010)

naturelover said:


> I think I like my own idea better, which is for all breeders to control themselves and stop at two. Otherwise your vision quoted above may very well become a reality instead of a fantasy.


That's a disgusting way to put it. Breeders? Sounds like you're talking about chickens.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

naturelover may have chosen a rough way of putting it but he is right. I know several large families on welfare. In one a lady has 5 daughters, 4 grandchildren and she is 36 yrs old.
How about the camps in the world where we feed and protect the peoples? They have nothign better to do than breed. We've gone from 1 million in camps to 10 million in 10 yrs. This trend has collasped many civilizations and goverments. The "privileged classes" tend to limit their kids to a substainable level- ie ones thay can afford to feed and care for. This is what causes populations to be bottom heavy with non productive members.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Ernie said:


> They were homeless vagrants according to the article.
> 
> *Shame on them for not standing on the corner and asking for handouts like is expected of them*.


***************************************
they could earn enough to pay for the $2,100 in fines?


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

I see some have stepped up to assign the "proper" population reproduction index... But what shall we do with the rest of our lives? What are the proper tax levels? How far should I travel from home when not on government approved business? May I be allowed to freely associate with cantankerous others on a public forum?

Please let me know what, if any, approved religions there are that I might cling to as hope for at least a better life in the hereafter... May I keep both of my dogs? Or is one the "proper" number I should have? Please share more of this wisdom, I so beg to know more... Thank you, thank you in advance oh wise ones...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Just bide your time.

The bureaucrats-at-heart will keep showing up.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

naturelover said:


> How do you know that? It's a serious question, not meant to be snarky. Was there somebody documenting forest fires and wildfires in that sparsely populated region at that time?


I don't for sure, but there was much written in detailed daily logs by Meriwether Lewis, William Clark and Sgt. Patrick Gass that never mentioned any. During that time, they hunted and cooked tons of meat over open fire as well as using fire for warmth.


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

TNHermit said:


> I will say that its interesting these people were to lazy to leave NY but motivated enough to hunt. There is something to learn there


Where do you want them to go ? Will there be a place for them when they get there ? 


Aren't they just doing what we all here on this forum try to learn - prep in place. Aren't they just walking the talk instead of talking about it ?
To be lazy when your homeless is to be dead. 
Prospect Park is their community, where they have developed resources and no I just don't mean which soup kitchen serves the best PB&J sandwich. 

Here's a tip about sleeping when your homeless - you buddy up & sleep in shifts. 
Here's another fact about the homeless - the fastest growing segment of the homeless population is families, followed by victims of domestic violence, and veterans as in Gulf War not just Vietnam.

As to why this is a news story now - City wrote it best, the yuppies complained. 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Nature, people who are experienced campers and trained in how to manage a fire are very unlikely to start a forest fire. Idiots that want to go camping, blast music, drink a ton of beer, and make a bone fire, have a much better chance of being the persons to start a forest fire.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

These are 'homeless' people... the dregs of society. Anyone think for a moment they're actually going to survive 'long term' hunting and fishing in the largest city in the US... in a man made park. I seriously doubt the carrying capacity of Prospect Park (hope I never ever have to get close to it...) is enough to support but a few souls. It's purpose is to keep city folk semi-contented enough to stay in the cesspool they live in. A speck of green amongst all the concrete and asphalt seems to work... why blow it, and risk all those lost souls heading out to the countryside and screw it all up....

Sorry folks, but if you believe wildlife would exist anywhere in America, without laws protecting them, your smoking some good shtuff... without laws, wildlife, right now, without a shtf or teotwawki, would disappear in weeks. If the bums want to forage, go out of town and start working the roadsides and overpasses... of course then, they'd be away from their other enablements (housing, drugs, and booze...)

After a shtf or teot, they'll disappear, for sure, unless 99% of the population dies instantly.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

We tried to stop at two, but third world decided to have seven.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

There is no way that prospect park could sustain very many people. I think maybe that it could sustain 30 people at best for the long term. That is the argument of the rangers, the park can not sustain all the forages and poachers and still leave enough for the animals. The rangers are also conderned about people who do not know who to harvest properly pulling endagered edible plants, like ramps, out of the ground root and all. 

There only wild life that are there that a person could take advantage of in this hypothetical sittuation would be squirls, rabbits, ducks, pegeons, wild migrating canadian geese in the fall and early spring, and that is about it. The lake is stocked by the park each year, so it doesn't regenerate itself, the squirls only breed once a year in spring and there are so few that they would be over hunted before they could regenerate, the rabbits would eventually run out also.

The fall of the Roman Empire was the last real TSHTF sittuation that occured and when it occured a lot of people left the cities for the county, it was considered the first back to the land movement, so look you guys, trouble is coming your way if things get bad.

"Going out to the country where the water taste like wine, gonna throw myself in that river, and stay drunk all the time!"


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Kathyhere said:


> People are so far out of touch with the real way of self sufficiency. They were calling this group animal murders âButcher of Prospect Park,â because the only way most people know meat is the prepackaged kind in the store. That way it's all clean and neat and none of the horrors of killing and preparing.


The "Butcher of Prospect Park" story is from different incidents a year ago - somebody was killing and mutilating chickens and other much larger animals, nailing cows tongues to trees and scattering the heads, entire carcasses and heaps of entrails all over the park and in the lake ...... and other nasty stuff, none of which had anything to do with self sufficiency:

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/33/13/33_13_sb_park_butcher.html


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Sweetsong said:


> > Originally Posted by *naturelover*
> > _I think I like my own idea better, which is for all breeders to control themselves and stop at two. Otherwise your vision quoted above may very well become a reality instead of a fantasy._
> 
> 
> That's a disgusting way to put it. Breeders? Sounds like you're talking about chickens.


Do you have a better word for people who breed indiscriminately and profusely? I know a few other words for people like that but I'm too polite to post them here.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

naturelover said:


> I think I like my own idea better, which is for all breeders to control themselves and stop at two. Otherwise your vision quoted above may very well become a reality instead of a fantasy.
> 
> .


This is extremely offensive to me in that I dont want to be told what ELSE I can do. Dont control my life, this is America. 

I respect you can post what you like, but to hint that controlling other's lives EVEN MORE is rediculous, IMO. Maybe we should start controlling our gov a little more and stop regulating the life out of our citezens.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Because controlling the reproduction of human beings is working out so well in China, and they are FAR more restrictive than us. At exactly what level of totalitarianism would that work out? At what loss of freedom would the grand dreams of these sick and twisted minds who want a Malthusian universe finally be achieved?

The level of sickness in this forum frightens me sometimes. That it passes itself off as "normal" is even more disturbing. Sick minds who attempt to get the government to do to others what they lack the strength and will to do themselves. I'll let you in on a little secret ... we won't let the government do it to us either.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote "Just bide your time.

The bureaucrats-at-heart will keep showing up."

....and it didn't take very long, did it? At least they make themselves plain....


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

It would be nice if people were a little more responsible in their breeding habits... but I don't think it is possible or desirable to have the government controlling human reproduction. When they learn how to pave a street right, and balance a budget, they can tell me how to breed.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

City Bound said:


> There is no way that prospect park could sustain very many people. I think maybe that it could sustain 30 people at best for the long term. That is the argument of the rangers, the park can not sustain all the forages and poachers and still leave enough for the animals. The rangers are also conderned about people who do not know who to harvest properly pulling endagered edible plants, like ramps, out of the ground root and all.
> 
> There only wild life that are there that a person could take advantage of in this hypothetical sittuation would be squirls, rabbits, ducks, pegeons, wild migrating canadian geese in the fall and early spring, and that is about it. The lake is stocked by the park each year, so it doesn't regenerate itself, the squirls only breed once a year in spring and there are so few that they would be over hunted before they could regenerate, the rabbits would eventually run out also.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, the first thing that will happen will be hordes of city people storming the country and taking over farms and homesteads. Its happened thoughout history. Ask any city guy where he will go if SHTF and he'll tell you he's going to the country. I had one city friend tell me that me and others like me in the country are just keeping the place 'warm', keeping the fields tilled, keeping the animals and structures maintained for when they decide to come and take it. The worst will be in the south because of the mild weather and long growing season.

I said I will defend my place, he said they will overrun me and get it anyway. He's probably right.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Because controlling the reproduction of human beings is working out so well in China, and they are FAR more restrictive than us. At exactly what level of totalitarianism would that work out? At what loss of freedom would the grand dreams of these sick and twisted minds who want a Malthusian universe finally be achieved?
> 
> The level of sickness in this forum frightens me sometimes. That it passes itself off as "normal" is even more disturbing. Sick minds who attempt to get the government to do to others what they lack the strength and will to do themselves. I'll let you in on a little secret ... we won't let the government do it to us either.


A bit strong there Ernie, NL said nothing about government control...in fact she very specifically said she thought they should control themselves.

The rest is a leap of your imagination.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Paumon said:


> The "Butcher of Prospect Park" story is from different incidents a year ago - somebody was killing and mutilating chickens and other much larger animals, nailing cows tongues to trees and scattering the heads, entire carcasses and heaps of entrails all over the park and in the lake ...... and other nasty stuff, none of which had anything to do with self sufficiency:
> 
> http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/33/13/33_13_sb_park_butcher.html


We have a very large population of caribian and hatian immigrants here, they practice voodoo. Most likely that is what all that carnage was about. I have found make shift voodoo alters on the beach. I found red voodoo candles and a dog skull once. On brooklyn public access tv sometimes there are voodoo preasts on their offering advice and promoting themselves.

I was swimming at the beach once, and this young hatian woman asked me to fill up a gallon jug with ocean water. I thought it was an odd request for a fully clothed young woman to ask, so I inquired what she wanted for. She smiled and became a little shy and said it was not for her, it was for her grandmother who uses it for rituals. 

This is a bit of a side note, but it was interesting. I was up in washington height in manhatten, it is a very large Dominocan community, with santaria shops and a lot of ethic culture from the old country. I was checking out a santaria shop. It was amazing how many people were rushing in for candles and herbs for rituals, just before sun down. I got the impression that most of those ritualistic things they were buying were for a fun night of sexual magic rituals later on with whoever their love interest was.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Paumon said:


> Do you have a better word for people who breed indiscriminately and profusely? I know a few other words for people like that but I'm too polite to post them here.


Yes. I call them: Out of control!


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

kirkmcquest said:


> Absolutely, the first thing that will happen will be hordes of city people storming the country and taking over farms and homesteads. Its happened thoughout history. Ask any city guy where he will go if SHTF and he'll tell you he's going to the country. I had one city friend tell me that me and others like me in the country are just keeping the place 'warm', keeping the fields tilled, keeping the animals and structures maintained for when they decide to come and take it. The worst will be in the south because of the mild weather and long growing season.
> 
> I said I will defend my place, he said they will overrun me and get it anyway. He's probably right.


Kirk, seriously, don't worry at all, city people wouldnt even know how to use a shovel let alone grow food. Average everyday people are completely clueless of the seasons, how they work, and how to work with them, even if they could figure out how to put a seed in the ground, they do not know when and how to put it there. Don't worry they will starve to death and kill each other with in fighting. If TSHTF and i was stuck here in this city, I would go underground, live in the subway tunnel system, and come up to forage, scavage, and make alliances.

One serious thing you would have to worry about if you know how to grow food and work the land, is that if TSHTF, you could be ganged up on and turned into a slave by people who do not know how to do those things. That is what has happned in the past. After the fall of Rome many meeker people who knew the land were inslaved and called serfs. I could happen again. If it happens chose death over slavery. It is better to die free then to live as a captive.

The best chance of survial would be if people grouped together, inclosed their homes and farmlands with defensive walls, and took to arms to defend their liberty as a group if offenders attacked. But, then again, that happened a lot in the past also, and eventually all those castles and walled villages fell and were plundered.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

City Bound said:


> If it happens chose death over slavery. It is better to die free then to live as a captive.


I'm not so sure about that. Would I die and leave my 12yo child alone to fend for herself? Or do you presume to suggest that whole families arrange to expire together? How exactly is that better than life as a slave?

To me, while there is life, there is hope of improvement. And I just don't think I could give mine up very easily. Let alone that of my family.

Regarding the park poachers, I don't consider what they were doing much of a survival strategy. To consume food that is likely contaminated, which has been artificially placed in a fake green space, where there is serious competition for limited, nonsustainable resources does not seem to me to be a very successful strategy for more than a very short while.

And while I hate unnecessary government intervention as much as the next person, I do believe that sometimes it is necessary. In my area during the Great Depression, white tailed deer were hunted to near-extinction levels. I have seen the statistics, but more importantly, I have talked to the old timers who still remember what a rare sight it used to be to see a deer around here.

The government stepped in and began regulating deer hunting. Now the woods are thick with white tails and most years they raise the original limits to allow hunters to thin them out some more. It is almost impossible to go hungry for meat around here because so many people have plenty of venison that they gladly share.

The bottom line was that the idiots were previously shooting just because they could or wanted to and had no respect for the concept of herd management. They shot pregnant does, tiny fawns, and prime bucks without hesitation. And according to the old timers, a lot of the meat they got spoiled due to lack of knowledge or willingness to learn how to butcher, preserve, or cook it properly. They nearly wiped out the entire food source in their "freedom". I, for one, am glad that Big Brother made them cut it out. Now there are plenty of deer for everyone to shoot.

Can someone tell me again how life would be better if the idiots were once again free to shoot any deer they wanted???? Because the sad fact is that there are way too many idiots and common sense is not all that common. 

Am I to be accused of sitting in my cubicle, licking boots? In actuality, I am sitting in a home I own, on a nice patch of rural land, deciding how I want to spend my life each day. If this is servitude, it ain't so bad....


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

OV. I never told you to do anything. My suggestion was for Kirk, because I have gotten to know him a little from these threads and I get the impression that he has a strong independent streak in him and that he would be very dicontent being a slave.

If you and your family would be content to accept being slaves that is your business. There were many jews who did not fight being slaves for the nazi party, and the nazi party worked them literally to death. If you want to take that chance so be it.

Other people would rather die with their sword in their hand then a collar around their neck. I would teach my children to chose to die fighting then to die of submission. That is just me. 

Take a look back at how the romans treated salve children and you might change your mind and want something better for your children then castration, forced servitude, and sex slavery.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> A bit strong there Ernie, NL said *nothing about government control .*... in fact she very specifically said she thought *they should control themselves*.
> 
> The rest is a leap of your imagination.


Thank you Tiempo. I appreciate you pointing that out. I have never mentioned a thing about government or bureaucratic control in any of my posts here. It is other people who have been talking about those things. 

I have only said I think other people should excercise more self control in their own breeding habits if they want to retain their freedoms and do not want Forerunner's fantasy of bureaucratic control in an over-populated society to become their future reality. 

I really wish some people (you all know who you are) would put aside your preconceived prejudices, pay closer attention to what other people say and allow the full comprehension of it to sink in. Responding blindly with unreasonable knee-jerk reactions and false accusations based on something that you imagined was said is counter-productive to any discussion.

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

I mentioned the *demographic trap* which is a real danger and something that is already happening in other places, and not the same thing as the dis-proved Malthusian theory that Ernie is harping on about. 

For those of you who don't know what the demographic trap is, you should read up on it because it is relevant to this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_trap



> During "stage 2" of the demographic transition, quality of health care improves and death rates fall, but birth rates still remain high, resulting in a period of high population growth. The term "*demographic trap*" is used by some demographers to describe a situation where stage 2 persists because "falling living standards reinforce the prevailing high fertility, which in turn reinforces the decline in living standards." This results in more poverty, where people rely on more children to provide them with economic security. Social scientist John Avery explains that this results because the high birth rates and low death rates "lead to population growth so rapid that the development that could have slowed population is impossible."
> 
> One of the significant outcomes of the "demographic trap" is explosive population growth. This is currently seen throughout Asia, Africa and Latin America, where death rates have dropped during the last half of the 20th century due to advanced health care. However, in subsequent decades most of those countries were unable to keep improving economic development to match their population's growth: by filling the education needs for more school age children; creating more jobs for the expanding workforce; and providing basic infrastructure and services, such as sewage, roads, bridges, water supplies, electricity, and stable food supplies.
> 
> A possible result of a country remaining trapped in stage 2 is its government may reach a state of "demographic fatigue," writes Donald Kaufman. In this condition, the government will lack financial resources to stabilize its population's growth and becomes unable to deal effectively with threats from natural disasters, such as hurricanes, floods, landslides, drought, and disease. According to Kaufman, many countries suffering from "demographic fatigue" will slip back into stage 1, resulting in both high fertility and high mortality rates. "If they do," he states, "these countries may soon reach zero population growth, but at a terrible price.".........


http://www.enotes.com/public-health-encyclopedia/demographic-trap



> The survival of a population depends ultimately on a sustainable supply of essential resources, particularly fresh water and food. If these are not available in sufficient quantities to sustain the people living in a nation or region, the population has exceeded the carrying capacity of that nation or region. Both populations and supplies of fresh water and food are dynamic, not static. Usually, in most nations, there is a positive balanceâthe nation or region either has, or can afford to import, a sufficient supply of fresh water and food to enable all currently living to survive, with enough left over to allow for natural population increase. However, sometimes the rate of increase of a nation's or region's population is greater than the capacity of the local or regional ecosystems to produce the food that is necessary for all to survive, and there are no financial resources to import these necessities for survival. Moreover, natural or manmade disasters can tip the balance by disrupting food supplies.
> 
> A population that has exceeded the national or regional carrying capacity is said to be caught in a demographic trap. Such a population must migrate out of the region, or it will starve unless it receives food aid. Another possible consequence may be violent armed conflict if the demographically trapped population encroaches on the territory of neighboring nations who regard them as unwelcome intruders.
> 
> The concept of the demographic trap first appeared in the annual report of the Worldwatch Institute in 1987. It was discussed at a major World Health Organization (WHO) conference in 1988, and has been much discussed since then;...........


.


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to...

Look at Global Warming for example...

Go forth and multiply, up to a point that is...


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

NewGround said:


> Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to...
> 
> Look at Global Warming for example...
> 
> Go forth and multiply, up to a point that is...


Indeed. Let us look at that. You call it global warming, I call it climate change, doesn't matter what you call it though because the end result is the same.

Who needs statistics? We don't need statistics to see where we're going with that. All you have to do is read the accounts of other HT members of this board who are reporting their own dire circumstances now due to only one year of record breaking blizzards, excess rain, floods, droughts, fires and heat waves. 

In the past two weeks climatologists and meteorologists have been announcing that the drought in the south is only in its infancy and that it's going to get worse. 

A member of this board has just started a topic of his own because he's concerned about losing his farm now. He and many others like him already can't grow crops and can't feed the livestock because of present lack of livestock feed and increasing prices. There are people reporting being put on water restrictions. There are states and provinces that had their crops destroyed or never got their crops in because of one year of bad climate, floods or drought.

How is all of that going to effect the food supply next year? If the same bad climate conditions continue into next year and the years after that, how will that effect the food supply in the following years?

If that happens what can governments do about it? Nothing. Governments can't control the climate and provide food that isn't there. What will desperate people do - where will they go? As City Bound has stated, and we all know it's the truth as history has shown before and as is happening in Africa right now because of similar circumstances - they will exodus out of the places where there's no food, strip the land and come directly to overwhelm those of you who still are able to grow crops and meat for them and supply them with your own food.

During the great depression and the dust bowl era there were not hundreds of millions of people on the continent, nor 7 billion people in the world. Now there is and now cannot be compared with what happened back then because the climate changes we're seeing happening now are happening globally, not only in one region of the world. 

Will they and you still want to go forth and multiply, to bring more babies into such a state of starvation, death, desperation and lawless anarchy and slavery?

.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't think climate change is happening. We had this kind of weather in the past. Heat waves and droughts have always happened, they are nothing new.

Where all this overpopulation is heading is towards war. There is just not enough resources on the planet right now to support the amount of people on the planet. That old hippy-communist idea that if we all just expect less and share everything then the planet can sustain us all, just will never work. People in the world are not suffering because the rich are hoarding everything.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

City Bound said:


> I don't think climate change is happening. We had this kind of weather in the past. Heat waves and droughts have always happened, they are nothing new.


Sorry CB but I have to disagree with you on that. What's been happening in the past 2 years has never happened before that I know of. There have been isolated droughts in the past and heat waves are nothing new, it's true. It isn't only droughts or heat waves that have been happening though and they aren't isolated to small areas. It has been record breaking blizzards and snow dumps that went on for months, floods, droughts, heat waves, wind storms, hail storms and tornadoes all happening within a short period of time, some of them in places where it's never happened before and all of them happening on this one continent.

If all of this has happened together here before in the past then I would like you to show me the records of it. I don't want to see records of isolated events. I want to see records of all of this happening here all over the continent like it's been for the past year. If you can show me that then I'm willing to reconsider my point of view about climate change.

.


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

naturelover said:


> Will they and you still want to go forth and multiply, to bring more babies into such a state of starvation, death, desperation and lawless anarchy and slavery?
> 
> .


Are you asking if I believe the word of God or the word of scientists? 

Starvation, death, desperation, lawless anarchy and slavery have been going on from the beginning and will always be going on... Would but life even cut short be not worthy of life? When we start deciding how many other lives are "allowed" we are on the same path that ends life to avoid "inconvenience"...

Why don't we stick with deciding our own lives and leave others to decide their own? If you've achieved your own personal 2.0 quota or whatever suits you why not leave it at that? What is it exactly that gives you (or me) the right to decide the fate (or even the opportunity to have a fate) of anyone else?

Many will lose "everything", it's always happened and always will... What is it we truly need? How many acres do we need? How many cattle? How many bedrooms? How many televisions? What we really need is not made or owned by man... 

As for the drought, plagues, famine, earthquakes and all else they have always been here... One could take note of an increase in these things coming like birth pangs, growing in severity and intensity as a sign if one is a believer... Fret not, there is no "requirement", no one deciding who must believe, and/or what they must believe...

I have my own personal reasons to know He is real... Whether it is time for His return anytime soon I do not know... I pray that it is soon... I will trust in Him to provide without demanding any level of comfort or leisure... If I am to die of starvation in a windswept world of plague and famine I will still die with a smile in my heart... But I try not to decide the fate others and if I have given anyone that impression please forgive me...

Live and let live... There really is a grand plan behind all of this...


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

NewGround said:


> Live and let live... There really is a grand plan behind all of this...


Agreed. 

.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

nadja said:


> But, in order to preserve the wilderness for everyone to enjoy, there must be laws and they must be enforced. Imagine if there were no laws on fishing/hunting/camping ? There would most likely be no forests left from all the fires. No game as there are pleanty of idiots who shoot deer etc just to see if they can. I am a firm believer in fishing and hunting, but the laws were created to protect the game and fish from being made like the dinosaurs. Extinct. Which is exactly what would have happened should there be no protection.


seems to me that they would not be hunting it if there were not a ready supply? I have never been to new york and have no desire to go but are squirrels and pidgeons scarce in new york? if they are not scarce then are these guys just fulfilling a naturall role as predators?

seems to me that it would take an awfull lot of hunters in new york
to make squirrels and pidgeons extinct so i think your statement is
not correct at least in this case.

i agree some animals need to be protected from idiots but there are other animals, squirrels and pidgeons included which have adapted so well
to human habitat to be a pest even a disease spreading varmit.

if someone is hunting them to help keep populations down its only helping everyone

and there is still LOTS of wilderness it just may not be accesabile
with a minivan lol


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

naturelover said:


> Sorry CB but I have to disagree with you on that. What's been happening in the past 2 years has never happened before that I know of. There have been isolated droughts in the past and heat waves are nothing new, it's true. It isn't only droughts or heat waves that have been happening though and they aren't isolated to small areas. It has been record breaking blizzards and snow dumps that went on for months, floods, droughts, heat waves, wind storms, hail storms and tornadoes all happening within a short period of time, some of them in places where it's never happened before and all of them happening on this one continent.
> 
> If all of this has happened together here before in the past then I would like you to show me the records of it. I don't want to see records of isolated events. I want to see records of all of this happening here all over the continent like it's been for the past year. If you can show me that then I'm willing to reconsider my point of view about climate change.
> 
> .


I am not doing to go digging through records. There is nothing new about torandos, tropical storms, blizzards, droughts, and heat waves in america. If any climate change is happneing , it is happening because of deforestation making the earth too dry. 

We have always had heat waves in NYC, we have even had water shortages from lack of rain. These things just happen. 

I don't have any figures for you, that is just what I have observed from living.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Dam, there are about 20 million people in New York City, if they all started hunting local wildlife, there would be nothing left in a week.


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## Jerngen (May 22, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Sounds like a great place for hunting to me.* Know any place where the deer will eat out of your hand*?


The Royal Gorge bridge parking lot in Colorado. One of the saddest things I saw my entire trip out there (to Colorado).


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

City Bound said:


> I am not doing to go digging through records. There is nothing new about torandos, tropical storms, blizzards, droughts, and heat waves in america. If any climate change is happneing , it is happening because of deforestation making the earth too dry.
> 
> We have always had heat waves in NYC, we have even had water shortages from lack of rain. These things just happen.
> 
> I don't have any figures for you, that is just what I have observed from living.


That's okay my dear, I didn't really expect you to find any records such as I asked you to present because I already know there aren't any to be found. 

Climate change is not happening because of deforestation making the earth too dry and it's not happening because of anything that Gore fellow says either - but we don't need to get into a discussion here about what's causing the climate to change. Just try to be aware that it IS happening and it's not happening the way or for the reasons that many people anticipated.

I think you need to get out of NYC. If you stay there you will not survive the way you think you will when TEOTWAKI happens.

.


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

Animals, even humans, do whatever they need to do so that they survive. Some individual members of the species may be more successful and live longer to create more offspring while others die off.

The homeless were doing what they thought they needed to do for their survival. As to whether it was good or bad, that is an individual decision. During famines in European cities the people ate rats, mice, dogs, cats and sometimes even animals in the zoos, such as during times of war.

The majority of the United States population lives within 60 miles of the ocean, mostly on the east and west coastlines. If things were break down to the point where people had to forage, hunt or scavenge, I would say there would be a rapidly increasing level of die off the longer it lasted. If we were lucky perhaps we might have a 10 percent survival rate.

Cities are death zones without our current supply chains and utility services. Rural areas cannot support city level populations due to limited resource provision levels. Those in rural areas who wish to survive are faced with a situation where they might have to exterminate the waves of city folks or risk being exterminated themselves. Those who try to live within their means have to weigh the pros and cons of having to deal with those who keep trying to be resource thieves as those others are not producing more of value than they consume.

Survival is not pretty. I have already resigned myself to the fact that to keep my family alive in desperate times I will have to do whatever it takes to protect them. I also realize others will have the same directive. However, I have also resigned myself to the fact that losing is not an option and there is no such thing as fair in a battle for survival.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

naturelover said:


> I think you need to get out of NYC. If you stay there you will not survive the way you think you will when TEOTWAKI happens.
> 
> .


NYC? There'd be a lot of folks surviving TEOTWAWKI in NYC. I do agree that the 'surviving' there would not be what one would think... I figure millions would die in the first week or two, a few more within a month... that still leaves tens of millions left... some enterprising toothsome folks would figure out where their bread was buttered. The problem then would be what it's always been..... how to preserve all that fresh meat. {Cannibalism}

I do believe Malthusian Principles are sound... they got sidetracked with the Age of Oil. His rules are still pertinent... ecosystems can only sustain so much mass... when humans outstrip the ability of the land to feed them, they die (or get bailed out by soft hearted souls, which only makes the original problem twice as bad).

Sorry folks, the planet cannot support unlimited population growth... anyone that thinks it can, I suggest you go down to the local Lowes, HD, or Mexican grocery store, and put up fliers inviting 3 or 4 dozen illegals to come in and share your home.

Just a matter of time before natural laws come back with a vengeance... the four horsemen are 'saddling up'... war, death, disease, and famine...


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