# Black and tan lab?



## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

A couple I know are raising a puppy for use as a service dog. Right now they have swapped with someone else for a short time. The dog they have is black and tan and looks like a lab/dobe mix. They assure me it is a full blooded lab and that it's a recessive gene and that they used to be culled at birth. I could almost accept that but shouldn't the dog look like a lab? 

I came home and looked it up and found a lot of pictures but none of the pictures looked like a pure lab either.

It does have me curious if anyone knows whether these truly are full blooded but poorly bred dogs, or are they just mutts someone is passing off as full blooded?


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

I used to hear the same thing about chocolate Labs. Blues and silvers too. Just saying....

Peg


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

yes the B&T lab is a legit mismark that used to be culled. the blue & silver OTH all originate with a single kennel, a single generation AND the kennel also bred weimaraners. i would be more in favor of spontaneous occurance if the blue & silvers were a commonly culled mismark in the history of the breed and the origin of the "line" came from accumulating mismarks from various other breeders as foundation stock.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

tailwagging, I looked at the link. None of the black and tans look like full blooded labs. There was a picture with a b/t beside two pure labs. You can see that the b/t is built different. That part is what has me doubting. If they are breeding for the mismark colors, then that could explain the poor quality of the dogs.

Peg, you can look at a chocolate lab and see the lab there in the build. I can't say that I've seen a silver or blue so can't comment. I can say it's a pet peeve when they call a yellow lab a white lab.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

A labs build can be anywhere from a barrel with legs to a slim leggy pointer type dog. With the huge diversity in the breeds build and structure I am not sure how build can be a determining factor in whether or not a lab is purebred. Black and tan labs have been present through out the history of the breed so its certianly possible.


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

If i hadn't seen my dogs parents when i went to pick her up i would have swore that she was the "Brindle Lab" the internet tells me exists. 

None of those dogs looks are consistent either.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

It's too bad that so may dogs are culled for color mismatches. They are always so beautiful. The varying coloration makes them unique and special. I like uniqueness more than conformity.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

White Boxers used to be culled the same way and unregisterable. Now they can be registered so no longer culled.


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## mothernature (Aug 22, 2010)

They cannot be registered as purebred with the AKC!!!


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

Rockytopsis said:


> White Boxers used to be culled the same way and unregisterable. Now they can be registered so no longer culled.


White boxers have been registerable for the last 35 years at least. I had one back then. But then -White is the dominant gene back to establishing the breed when they used a white bulldog named Tom. Its actually the ORIGINAL color.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

There is a reason resessive genes were culled they usually brought out the founder genes linked to the recessive patterning, which is why the Labs with the blk/tan look different. I have known the breeder linked to for many years she is phenominal in her research. If you are exposed to breeds enough you wil see different looks linked to size differences(Yorkies show this a lot). Allmosrt all breeds have "undesired colours" because the breeders of old knew that keeping those colours in the breeding gene pool was not a good idea.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

mothernature said:


> They cannot be registered as purebred with the AKC!!!


Yes they can, they just can't be shown in conformation (the color would be a disqualification).

Even though there is no color spot for "black & tan", they would be registered as "black" (even if that's not correct). Just like silver labs are registered as chocolates (even though that's *totally* incorrect b/c the "silver" color is NOT dilute chocolate).


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I guess you learn something new every day.

Thanks folks.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

mothernature said:


> They cannot be registered as purebred with the AKC!!!



I can't be 100% but I bet they can. and under blk/tan to boot.
AKC REGed merle chi long before put it upon the puppy papers as a chihuahua color.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Immaculate Sublimity said:


> White boxers have been registerable for the last 35 years at least. I had one back then. But then -White is the dominant gene back to establishing the breed when they used a white bulldog named Tom. Its actually the ORIGINAL color.


Also that is what you can get when you have "flash" (white trim) in the bloodline.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Pops2 said:


> the blue & silver OTH all originate with a single kennel, a single generation AND the kennel also bred weimaraners.


And they're claiming that blue & silver Labs have always existed as a recessive gene? 

I had never seen a black & tan Lab before, didn't know they existed. If I'd seen one I'd have assumed it was a Rottweiler cross. I have to admit, it's a rather attractive pattern... I'd own one! Spayed/neutered, of course!


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

DaniR1968 said:


> They assure me it is a full blooded lab and that it's a recessive gene and that they used to be culled at birth.


DaniR, this is what I was referring to. When I was showing in obedience starting in 1966, chocolate labs were still often culled at birth. Same with black-and-white Shelties (before they were called bi-blacks). Hey, red-and-white Holsteins used to be culled too.



DaniR1968 said:


> Peg, you can look at a chocolate lab and see the lab there in the build. I can't say that I've seen a silver or blue so can't comment. I can say it's a pet peeve when they call a yellow lab a white lab.


Used to be a puppy-mill type of place advertising blue and silver Labs in Wisconsin. A very-well respected breeder assured me they couldn't be purebred Labs but I was always curious, it's basically a simple dilute color in other breeds like Dobes.

Black-and-tan popping out in these Labs could be a genetic throwback in some cases and unsuspected cross in others.

Some yellow labs are light enough to be called cream, same with golden retrievers. Calling them "white" just shows the person's ignorance and exaggeration.

Paul likes black Labs but I'd rather have a yellow. Love their faces. We don't need a hunting dog so the Border collies will have to do.

With DNA testing available now, a breeder coming up with these black-and-tan Labs or other throwbacks would be smart to have the parentage verified.

Peg


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

tailwagging said:


> I can't be 100% but I bet they can. and under blk/tan to boot.
> AKC REGed merle chi long before put it upon the puppy papers as a chihuahua color.


In chihauhaus you just register merles as roan.

As far as blue labs.... I use to go to a vet that bred them. She swore they were full blooded, and she registered them with the AKC as choclolates.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Is your friend's litter registered with AKC or UKC with a traceable pedigree? If not, I would assume they are mixed.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Haven said:


> Is your friend's litter registered with AKC or UKC with a traceable pedigree? If not, I would assume they are mixed.


Papers can be faked; I'd be interested to see a DNA test in these blue and silver Labs.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> Papers can be faked; I'd be interested to see a DNA test in these blue and silver Labs.


I agree, but those registries do require random dna testing to help insure the integrity of pedigrees. I'm just saying the chances that they are mixed, if not registered is pretty high.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

I've never seen a black and tan before, but I have seen the brindle, again out of Guiding Eye breedings. Surprised that other link doesn't mention fox red, but then again, that used to be more normal than the almost white they are producing now.

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/foxred.htm


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Actually, the black and tans aren't as different in build as it seems at first glance. It's a trick of the eye.

I guess I'm just more used to mentally painting an animal to _blah_ because I'm trained to appraise horses. And with those you not only want to mentally blank out color but hair as well because the mind wants to oohh and aahh over long flowy ones (thought that lovely mane might have bad neck conformation under it) and dismiss ratty looking ones (the eye wants to slide past that lovely, flowing hindquarter to wonder what chewed that tail to shreds or did it just never grow one) 

The black and tan points make the face look more slender, accentuates the ears, draws attention to the brow and away from the skull structure and can make the legs look more slender as well.

Go back to those pictures. Are the first 2 puppies faces really narrow - or is it just that your eye focuses on the cheeks as being black and the tan jawline as almost separate or receding?
Scroll to the picture with the three dogs.
Trace your finger over the outline of the middle and far right dogs (half brothers) See how the skull and earset is almost exactly the same? The chocolate actually has the narrower muzzle.
Now, JUST look at the pastern joint. Mentally encircle them with your hands. The black and tan's legs are NOT thinner - they are the same.
Again, take your finger to the screen and trace up each dog's leg to the chest. Notice how on the black and tan your finger _wants_ to go to the tan. That is not the right spot. The black wants to your eye to see it as the belly, the chest is a couple of inches down from where your eye wants to jump to in the picture. If you are looking for it, you'll see that lab has a nice, deep chest to him.

The sixth picture. Mentally paint the whole dog yellow and that is a classic lab, _love me_ face. She's a little fat but if she was yellow everybody would say "Oh, what a sweet Lab!"


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> In chihauhaus you just register merles as roan.
> 
> As far as blue labs.... I use to go to a vet that bred them. She swore they were full blooded, and she registered them with the AKC as choclolates.



There is no roan color for chihuahua.

They were REG as merle, even though merle wasn't a color on the chihuahuas puppy papers.
now it is on chihuahua puppy papers but back then it wasn't, and yet AKC would accept merle and REG them AS merle if you wrote it in.
they would most likely do it with blk/tan labs too.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

longshadowfarms said:


> Surprised that other link doesn't mention fox red, but then again, that used to be more normal than the almost white they are producing now.
> 
> http://www.littleriverlabs.com/foxred.htm


I have seen a few fox red Labs and have always thought they were beautiful.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Boy, didn't I start something! 

Wolf Flower, I have to say that if I wanted a lab, I would go with Chocolate. I don't even know why but they are the ones I drool over the most. Funny that my favorite color of dobe is b/t! LOL

Ottor, I did try to picture them a solid color. And keep in mind that I have two doberman. To me, a b/t lab would be more like a rotti in build. Very solid body and nice big head versus the doberman which is more slender in build and has a more slender head and longer nose. My first thought when I saw the pup was rot/lab cross but then thought the head look a bit more dobie. She looked to be 6 or 8 months old so could have been at an awkward growing stage. 

I would really love to see dna run and swabs taken by a vet just to make sure.

There was a situation a few years ago with someone claiming to own a color of arabian that in that horse was genetically impossible. There was even dna to back up their claim to show the parents were the parents, but they got the samples themselves and sent them in. I guess enough people questioned it that the dna was taken by a vet of the supposed parents and it turned out the horse they claimed was the mother was not.

Do I believe that it can spontaneously appear in labs? Yeah. Is it possible that there is some other breed in some of these pups/dogs? Yeah.

Do I really care that much? Not really. I'm not really into labs. If I wanted a lab or any breed for that matter, I would not go to one that breeds for an unacceptable color on purpose. It's kind of like people that breed for paints or buckskins etc with no thought to the actual build or mind of the horse.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

It is really hard.
The best thing to do is shut your eyes and feel. A lab won't feel like a rottie - it will feel like a lab. 
_My first thought when I saw the pup was rot/lab cross but then thought the head look a bit more dobie_ .. that actually sounds about right.

And they *do* go through a gawky stage. When my golden was 9 months he had an awful growth spurt and grew out of his fur. Literally, you could see the pink of his skin through the puppy coat because he wasn't growing adult hair fast enough. All bones too - it was embarrassing to be seen with him. He was getting 4 cups of kibble with milk, eggs or yogurt and a pound of raw chicken a day and he looked like he was this ungodly hybrid of a golden and a greyhound.

Not all dogs do, but retrievers, GSDs, saints are a few of the breeds famous for "hide them in a kennel till they grow back out of it" gawkiness.
Take a peek at her again in 3 or 4 months and tell us what you think then.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

Wolf Flower said:


> I have seen a few fox red Labs and have always thought they were beautiful.


I agree. I much prefer the darker over the lighter, but would never choose a dog based on color only. Made that mistake once. HAD to have the chocolate. She was sweet, but dumb as a post and had bad hips and elbows.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

genetically there are only two colors in dogs black & red/brown. genetically a cream & a fox red & a chocolate are all the same color w/ variances in the shading genes so consequently a silver is a chocolate/red/yellow w/ dilute genes. a blue is genetically black w/dilute genes. brindles are red except for blue brindle whose brindling is only visible because of the dilute genes shading of the base color allowing the brindle to show. genetically black dogs w/o the dilute gene cannot show brindle. so called black brindles are genetically red w/ heavy expression of the brindle markings & just enough of the base color showing to create the illusion of black stripes on a black dog. true white dogs are red or black w/ a white spot over their whole body.
it's actually a lot more complicated than this but i'm not smart enough to explain the details in a way everyone can understand.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I would just find a breeder that I trust. Period. 

Life is too short to be stuck with a dog that is not what you want.
If you dont feel that this dog is what you are looking for, find the one that is. 

Your own intuition will tell you, if you listen.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

IN the Poodle wrold you have the 2 solid colours Black & WHite, there is some discussion on whether white is to be considered a fading gene. Any other colour produced in either a recessive (brown) that carrys the fading gene or a fading gene.The jury is still out on red. So silver,blue are fading genes of black, Beige ,Silver beige and platinum are fading genes in brown. Apricot is another fading gene in the brown family and it also produces cream(double dilute fade gene). There are fade, double dilute that act together. So witht he introduction of chocolate being brought out thru recessive colour breeding it is very possible the silver and blue were introduced when the chocolate was being bred extensively to the black to set the type. It inrtroduced a fading gene that is becoming more prevelant as the gene is carried thru more lines.

Not saying that funky breeding hasnt gone on but once you study colour in Poodles you understand how you can get some very interesting combos. In Poodles you never combine certain colours because you will get wrong colour points in the stroner colours comboined quite often with the fading genes.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Its funny that this popped up now..... in this month's AKC Gazette magazine the Lab breed column is about black and tan labs! IDK if you can access it on the AKC's website or not, but if you can its an interesting read.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

March is online but not April. Highlights?


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't have the magazine here with me at work....it basically said (IIRC) that black and tan does crop up now and again in labs, and that breeders needed to think long and hard before using dogs with that coat color in their breeding programs because the good qualities of the dog needed to be balanced with the negative impact of allowing that incorrect color type to be kept in the gene pool.

I'll look at the magazine tonight if I remember LOL and post more.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I would love to have a blk and tan lab. I like different. I will try and post a picture of my fox red lab Moose.He weighed 64 pounds at 4 months old. He is now around 7 months old and has to weigh a good 80plus pounds. My vet insists I show him,,but not sure if I will or not.
He is soo sweet and very smart and a fetching machine, And he loves water.
My constant companion is a chocolate lab. I was raised with labs and am so glad I refound them.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Its called "Tan Points & Brindle"

"The coat patterns tan points and brindle have been in the breed a long time and are historically documented. The production of a patterned Lab should not cause anyone to question the legitimacy of the pedigree. The appearance of an occasional "throwback" is the nature of recessives."

"Unorthodox as it may seem, with the advent of genetic testing it is possible to responsibly work with a patterned animal in a breedign program. This is not to suggest that a pattern should be intentionally propagated, but rather that truly superior patterned dogs need not necessarily be eliminated from breeding."

It then goes into the genetics of colors in labs, and encourages anyone who has these patterns appear in their lines notify others who have the same lines so they can be aware of its existence.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Does it show pictures? Do they look like labs? 

I wouldn't have a b/t lab but only because I already have my b/t doberman. I should say I wouldn't seek one out. I would take any good dog in any color if it happened my way.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

DaniR1968 said:


> Does it show pictures? Do they look like labs?


Nope, no pics... but the story that starts the article off is about a breeder who thinks there is some mud on one of her pup's paws, and when she goes to brush it off she notices that it is actually tan brindling that is starting to fill in on his legs (and the littermates began to develop the same thing). So my guess is that if an experienced breeder didn't notice a difference in the structure of her pups, there probably isn't any.....again that's just an educated guess on my part.


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