# Man paralyzed after drinking raw milk



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/health/23199238/detail.html

http://thefoodsafetylawyer.com/2010...ing-raw-milk-contaminated-with-campylobacter/

Campylobacter is believed to be the culprit. 

Please be careful, folks.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

why would anyone choose to drink raw milk instead of milk that has been sterilized and known to be safe?


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Here we go again, those of us that drink and sell raw milk, choose to do so because this still is america. I do not want those of you to drink REAL milk that don`t want to, but allow me that right. This has been a hot topic on here before, and some are really going to make this look bad for those of us that sell raw "REAL" milk. How many people get sick and die from eating in restaurants each year. This is a risk we take if we choose to eat out, that is no different. I will argue this point till the cows come home, I still think that raw milk is safe on the most part, this farm bottles it`s own milk, which I think could be the problem to some degree. I don`t know , but I`m headed to the barn to milk, and bring some back to the house for lunch. And the wife is making butter from it today also, as I have said this is still the good ole U.S.A. and don`t take that right away from me. Thanks Marc P.S. Haypoint is going to eat this news up.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> How many people get sick and die from eating in restaurants each year.


I'd like to see some good stats of how many die from raw milk consumption, then numbers from salmonella, and then numbers from E coli.

Then I would like to see the stats from the salmonella cases that were contracted from the grocery store and then from restaurants.
Then I would like to see the stats from the E coli cases that were contracted from the grocery store, and then from restaurants.

I am going to guess the likelihood of contracting salmonella or E coli from your local grocery store or restaurant are at least DOUBLE the chances of dying from drinking raw milk.

But I would love to see the stats.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Telegraph.co.uk
Health News
One in six NHS patients 'misdiagnosed'
As many as one in six patients treated in NHS hospitals and GPsâ surgeries is being misdiagnosed, experts have warned. 

For those who can't find their butts with both hands and a flashlight - to quote Joycelyn Elders "we ALL gonna die of sum'in"
I was raised on "raw" milk along with multiples of thousands of others - but now, let's make drinking raw milk some sort of "CRISIS" - yea, that's the ticket, crisis.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Gercarson said:


> Telegraph.co.uk
> Health News
> One in six NHS patients 'misdiagnosed'
> As many as one in six patients treated in NHS hospitals and GPsâ surgeries is being misdiagnosed, experts have warned.
> ...


Good grief, what on earth do misdiagnoses in the NHS system have to do with the OP??? Do you EVER give your agenda a rest?

FWIW



> Many research studies have demonstrated the frequency of medical misdiagnoses.
> There have been multiple autopsy studies that have uncovered frequent clinical errors and misdiagnoses, with some rates as high as 47 percent.3
> A study of autopsies published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings comparing clinical diagnoses with postmortem diagnoses, for medical intensive care unit patients, revealed that in 26 percent of cases, a diagnosis was missed clinically. If the true diagnosis were known prior to death, it might have resulted in a change in treatment and prolonged survival in most of these misdiagnosed cases. The studyâs researchers concluded, âDespite the introduction of more modern diagnostic techniques and of intensive and invasive monitoring, the number of missed major diagnoses has not essentially changed over the past 20 to 30 yearsâ.4


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

My question for those who take prescription drugs. Are you aware that 300,000+ die per year from prescription drugs? How about other food borne illnesses.. Over 5500 die per year from them alone. Yet you still take that risk buying lettuce, tomatoes, maybe some luncheon meats. Fruits and Vegetables are responsible for more food borne illnesses than anything else. But I bet you don't think about that before buying any? How many other people have become paralyzed from food borne illnesses?


People treat raw milk as if it is a drug.. Makes you wonder if its being mistaken for liquid cocaine.


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Gercarson said:


> Telegraph.co.uk
> Health News
> One in six NHS patients 'misdiagnosed'
> As many as one in six patients treated in NHS hospitals and GPsâ surgeries is being misdiagnosed, experts have warned.
> ...


Not to mention when you come in, sick from eating something. The one question they ask is if you drank raw milk. Someone told us their mother went in, sick from eating meats, or veggies or something similar. They asked if she drank raw milk. This person has never touched it her entire life.


They single it out, and BAM its blamed, easy to blame something when the doctors dont know their ass from a hole in the ground.


Jeff


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

lilmizlayla said:


> why would anyone choose to drink raw milk instead of milk that has been sterilized and known to be safe?


maybe you should do a search on how many people each year are made sick from your so called known to be safe milk


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Tiempo said:


> Good grief, what on earth do misdiagnoses in the NHS system have to do with the OP??? Do you EVER give your agenda a rest?
> 
> FWIW


Well, yes - good grief. I'm pretty sure you won't find a connection to the inane OP that pointed out that ONE person has a problem with "raw milk" - and zillions of others have NEVER had a problem - plus, there is a very, very good chance that it was a misdiagnosis. Nope, I don't give up too easily - when we do, the liberal socialists take the bullypulpit as the only voice - and they only tell us WHAT we can do and WHEN we can do it - GOOD GRIEF indeed.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

Just another perfect example of what's wrong with this country. People who are scared of their own shadows and too stupid or too lazy to do anything without someone holding their hand and double and triple checking up on them every step of the way to make sure they do it correctly and safely! 

Just like the pot pie recall because people were too stupid to cook it in the microwave until done...even though there were clear directions on every package, and a lot of other situations just like this. Whatever happened to intelligence, independence and just plain old common sense?? Why are people so he**-bent on sticking their noses into everyone else's business when it has nothing to do with them?

I don't use raw milk currently, but if I had easy access to it I'd do so gladly. As long it's handled and used properly, it's no more dangerous than anything else. But this one case will give the hand-wringing panty twisters another excuse to cry and whine about something that has absolutely nothing to do with them anyway! They don't drink it, so why should they care if someone else does? 

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it wasn't even due to raw milk, but misdiagnosed because yes, they're just looking for a scapegoat and it's easier than finding out what actually did cause the problem...and I work in the medical field, I know exactly how often it happens (way less than publicized, believe me)!

Sorry, but I've already had a run-in this morning with this kind of person, and I'm in a really cranky mood, which is a very rare occurrence for me. I am just SO SICK of all the overprotective buttinskis trying to run all our lives! I'll get down off my :soap: now.


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

Honestly, there are enough Amish in PA & OH that if you really want raw milk I would think there are enough places to get it besides a place known for bad milk.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yous pays your money and yous takes your chances. This guy just rolled snake eyes.

If you want to drink raw milk go for it. But make sure you have enough insurance to pay if something like this goes wrong so I'm not forced to pay for your problems.

If I am forced to pay, which it looks like its heading that way, they I think I have a right to demand you not take such chances and demand the banning of raw milk sales and to make consumption of raw milk illegal.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

It's all well and good - raw milk that is - until you are the one paralyzed. 

I will drink pasterized milk.


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## navygirl (Oct 23, 2005)

"If I am forced to pay, which it looks like its heading that way, they I think I have a right to demand you not take such chances and demand the banning of raw milk sales and to make consumption of raw milk illegal."

Okay, if I am forced to pay for other folks' health care (and it looks like it's headed that way), then I think I have a right to demand they not take such chances and demand the banning of driving and to make driving illegal. And no sports either, 'cause they might get hurt. And I might have to demand that no one work at any dangerous jobs. That's it... I'm wrapping everyone up in cotton and taking away everything sharp or pointy!!!


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

watcher said:


> Yous pays your money and yous takes your chances. This guy just rolled snake eyes.
> 
> If you want to drink raw milk go for it. But make sure you have enough insurance to pay if something like this goes wrong so I'm not forced to pay for your problems.
> 
> If I am forced to pay, which it looks like its heading that way, they I think I have a right to demand you not take such chances and demand the banning of raw milk sales and to make consumption of raw milk illegal.


So.... if I'm reading this right, you want drinking raw milk banned because one person got sick/paralized drinking it and you don't want to pay for someone else's care if they drink the milk? Well, then let's correlate this... others have gotten sick from eating spinach, so let's ban eating raw spinach. I've gotten food poisioning eating at fast food places, so let's close down all fast food places. A young man died kissing a girl that ate a peanut butter sandwich, so let's make peanut butter illegal! Oh heck, while we're at it, let's just make it illegal for anyone to grow or eat anything raw, like lettuce, tomatoes, onions, radishes, carrots, cellery, peas, green beans.... apples, oranges, peaches, pears, ..... etc. No more fresh foods! Nothing allowed but cooked and canned foods you can buy over priced in the stores that has all the nutrients cooked out of it! Get real! You're starting a snowball with one person getting sick! Just my two cents worth... while I'm in a bad mood. -Catherine


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## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

The man's family is suing the dairy. It does seem that that specific dairy has had trouble before. I have no idea what volume that dairy does. 

Again, the lawyer fares the best in this instance, which is sad. I'm not saying we shouldn't have lawyers.

They did state that the man's stools and the empty milk bottles tested positive for Campylobacter. I was trying to find a clue as to the most probable cause of the contamination but nothing was stated, which makes sense if there is a lawsuit pending.

I do remember when my late father, a truck driver, was hauling milk from local dairies that sanitation was a big deal. I wonder how often milk is contaminated by cleaning agents? Sorry, I'm getting a bit carried away.

I do agree with others that we should be more rational about analyzing risk. The media loves to sensationalize news, especially in circumstances where they feel that they won't get a backlash from the general public, who won't bother to analyze the issue.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

How can you ban raw milk. People will always drink raw milk. It's those that have horrible heath effects and they are very few who will then sue those that they bought the raw milk from. Simple as that. If you are in the market of selling raw milk then make sure no one gets sick...or have a great amount of $$$$$ saved to pay off their suit.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This just can't be so.

I've been told raw milk sales is a way for the small farms to compete with the "big guys". This dairy has 130 cows. That's not what most folks see as "small".

How do you cultivate that farmer-consumer bond when you are serving 4-5,000 customers?
A dairy that is milking 60 cows will produce near 600 gallons of milk daily. If each customer buys a gallon every week, they need thousands of customers.

Everywhere raw milk is legalized, dairies of this size will squeeze out the small producer with a dozen or so cows. Every time.

Watcher is right about having good health insurance. However, insurance companies don't just dole out money. They bring suit against the causes of damage. That's right, Farmer Brown, that's you.

Springvalley, please note that my nemesis has posted twice, so far. He may be eating this up, too.

Is it a coincidence that during the several discussions of the raw milk topics, spanning a few months, there have been several cases of people getting sick or dying from the bacteria in raw milk?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Quiltinglady, it isn't quite as simple as that.
There is always a knee-jerk reaction when tainted food hits the market. 
If you sell your raw milk to someone that dies, the market contracts, costing the people that sell pasturized milk. Keeping the reputation of milk as a safe food is important to every dairy. Selling raw milk, especially the larger dairies, is playing Russian Roulette with the livelihood of every dairy farmer.


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## mountainlaurel (Mar 5, 2010)

pmondo said:


> maybe you should do a search on how many people each year are made sick from your so called known to be safe milk



Just three weeks ago, elementary school students became sick from drinking chocolate milk from the Dairy Maid Dairy located in Frederick. There were cleaning agents in the choc milk and the container holding the contaimenated ones was labeled but they still got sent to the school. The children that drank the whole carton got the sickest.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Quiltinglady, it isn't quite as simple as that.
> There is always a knee-jerk reaction when tainted food hits the market.
> If you sell your raw milk to someone that dies, the market contracts, costing the people that sell pasturized milk. Keeping the reputation of milk as a safe food is important to every dairy. Selling raw milk, especially the larger dairies, is playing Russian Roulette with the livelihood of every dairy farmer.



Exactly. I had hoped that a real Dairy Farmer would point that out. 

I grew up in Dairy country. Safe milk is the only way to go. 

:goodjob:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I wouldn't drink raw milk from a large dairy where I'm one of 4500 customers. From my own cow or goat where I saw what went in the pail? You betcha. Have done it many a time. However I fully support the right of anyone to sell it or consume it as they will. There's a billion things that can hurt or kill you. If certain people had their way, all of America would be one smooth sterilized surface with every action scrutinized by at least three government inspectors standing over their shoulder. All ships are safer in port, but that's not what ships are for.

Keep in mind that the entire point of this post was to support the "full government control of everything under the sun" agenda of many of the progressive liberals on this forum. It's part of their agenda.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Lyra said:


> Honestly, there are enough Amish in PA & OH that if you really want raw milk I would think there are enough places to get it besides a place known for bad milk.


Please, please, Lyra! Tell me you are not infering that because the milk comes from an Amish farm it is somehow free from deadly pathogens. 

In every product and every line of work, people are individuals. There are Amish that build poor furnature, make cookies that are tasteless, sell horses that are lame and sell contaminated raw milk. Just a few weeks ago, an Amish dairy was shut down after a bunch of people injested enough bacteria from their raw milk to make them sick. 

Amish are people, too.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

lilmizlayla said:


> why would anyone choose to drink raw milk instead of milk that has been sterilized and known to be safe?


Because "sterilized" milk is devoid of the natural enzymes that help us to digest the milk. I have IBS and cannot tolerate pasteurized milk anymore as it causes GI probs for me.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Oh No, the Gov. will find a way to Tax the carp out of milk now.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

navygirl said:


> "If I am forced to pay, which it looks like its heading that way, they I think I have a right to demand you not take such chances and demand the banning of raw milk sales and to make consumption of raw milk illegal."
> 
> Okay, if I am forced to pay for other folks' health care (and it looks like it's headed that way), then I think I have a right to demand they not take such chances and demand the banning of driving and to make driving illegal. And no sports either, 'cause they might get hurt. And I might have to demand that no one work at any dangerous jobs. That's it... I'm wrapping everyone up in cotton and taking away everything sharp or pointy!!!


Bing! Give that gal a cig-ar!!! She hit the bullseye. If someone else is paying for you they have the right to tell you what you will receive. When the government starts paying for your health care it will start telling you how to live. No raw milk, no transfats, no salt. . . .


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

springvalley said:


> So.... if I'm reading this right, you want drinking raw milk banned because one person got sick/paralized drinking it and you don't want to pay for someone else's care if they drink the milk? Well, then let's correlate this... others have gotten sick from eating spinach, so let's ban eating raw spinach. I've gotten food poisioning eating at fast food places, so let's close down all fast food places. A young man died kissing a girl that ate a peanut butter sandwich, so let's make peanut butter illegal! Oh heck, while we're at it, let's just make it illegal for anyone to grow or eat anything raw, like lettuce, tomatoes, onions, radishes, carrots, cellery, peas, green beans.... apples, oranges, peaches, pears, ..... etc. No more fresh foods! Nothing allowed but cooked and canned foods you can buy over priced in the stores that has all the nutrients cooked out of it! Get real! You're starting a snowball with one person getting sick! Just my two cents worth... while I'm in a bad mood. -Catherine



Nope, read it again. If you want to drink raw milk, go right ahead. If you want to juggle running chainsaws, be my guest. If you want cover yourself in raw bacon and swim with the sharks, I don't care. As long as you are ready, willing and able to care for yourself if something goes wrong. When I'm paying for your care then I think I have the right to tell you you can't take a chance.


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## navygirl (Oct 23, 2005)

Geez... I was just trying to point out how ridiculous it's gotten. I don't want anyone taking care of me nor telling me how to run my life. I don't want to take care of anyone else nor tell them how to run their lives. Let's negate the whole thing and simply make personal responsibility the order of the day.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

navygirl said:


> Geez... I was just trying to point out how ridiculous it's gotten. I don't want anyone taking care of me nor telling me how to run my life. I don't want to take care of anyone else nor tell them how to run their lives. Let's negate the whole thing and simply make personal responsibility the order of the day.


That's kind of the way I feel about it.

Notice the progressives didn't wait very long after the healthcare reform before they started pointing out little things they can use the issue to get control of.

Many of us warned that this was the real problem with healthcare, in that it would be used to seize control over everything else under the premise that if taxpayers have to reap the consequences of the actions of others then by rights they can dictate what others do.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Wow! What a coincidence!

I had a cousin who was paralyzed by drinking raw milk.

The cow sat on his face.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

What amazes me is that people who show concern over raw milk, show absolutely no concern over the things that cause THOUSANDS of deaths per year, the very things regulated and approved by the government.


Lets see some consistency with concerns, vs simply focusing on one little insignificant thing.



Jeff


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

JeffNY said:


> My question for those who take prescription drugs. Are you aware that 300,000+ die per year from prescription drugs?
> 
> Jeff


And you source for that info is?


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I love the smell of raw milk in a bucket or bulk tank. In high school, I remember bailing hay for a local farmer and helping ourselves to the cold milk in the bulk tank between wagon loads.

I would risk it again for me at the source in a cup, but I wouldn't back up the truck to deliver to anyone.

Maybe that's why I turned out the way I did.


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## mosepijo (Oct 21, 2008)

I will take my chances with raw milk. (Am currently drinking a tall glass)

Staying away from doctors is my goal. Now that scary.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> Exactly. I had hoped that a real Dairy Farmer would point that out.
> 
> I grew up in Dairy country. Safe milk is the only way to go.
> 
> :goodjob:


QuiltingLady, are you saying I`m not a real dairy farmer, just because I don`t have a thousand head of cows?


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## mountainlaurel (Mar 5, 2010)

I've milked in a 'REAL Dairy Farmers' parlor more than once and when you have a dozen cows in the parlor, sometimes things happen, like one of the milkers falling off and before you can get there to get it back on the cow, it sucks up a fresh cow patty and that goes into the tank.
But don't worry, it's pasturized. So now you get to drink cooked cow manure. Cause that's what happens in a REAL DAIRY FARMERS parlor sometimes which is why the gov wants it pasturized. So the germs are cooked out of the cow hockey without removing the hockey from the fluid milk

That's why I drink raw milk from my own cow. I milk her and I know what went in it.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I would do just about anything to have my own cow, and drink, make cheese, make yougart, make ice cream, and make butter from raw milk.

God made grass.
God made cows.
Cows make milk.

Man that's good enough for me!!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I'd like to see some good stats of how many die from raw milk consumption, then numbers from salmonella, and then numbers from E coli.
> 
> Then I would like to see the stats from the salmonella cases that were contracted from the grocery store and then from restaurants.
> Then I would like to see the stats from the E coli cases that were contracted from the grocery store, and then from restaurants.
> ...


Since this is so important to you then it should be a good project for you. I would love to see you go look for those stats and then post them here for us. Please be sure to keep the stats you post as honest and unbiased as possible, especially free of your religious bias.



Laura Zone 5 said:


> I would do just about anything to have my own cow, and drink, make cheese, make yougart, make ice cream, and make butter from raw milk.
> 
> God made grass.
> God made cows.
> ...


No, it's not good enough for you unless you are a suckling calf. God did not make cows to make milk for humans - god made cows to make milk for their calves to be suckled straight from the teat. Just as with all other mammals. All mammals get weaned off the teat after a specific period of time and then have no more access to milk - they are not supposed to have more milk after being weaned. The human digestive system is not designed to digest raw milk from other animals let alone from human milk after weaning. Humans are opportunistic and have taken advantage of the product of the cow but that's NOT what god intended milk for.

So please don't bring your religious beliefs into matters of human health.

.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

My cousin is a very godly man.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Does your cousin drink milk?

.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Ernie said:


> Keep in mind that the entire point of this post was to support the "full government control of everything under the sun" agenda of many of the progressive liberals on this forum. It's part of their agenda.


Give that dog a bone!!!
That was the "entire point" of the op - careful folks!


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

springvalley said:


> Here we go again, those of us that drink and sell raw milk, choose to do so because this still is america. I do not want those of you to drink REAL milk that don`t want to, but allow me that right. This has been a hot topic on here before, and some are really going to make this look bad for those of us that sell raw "REAL" milk. How many people get sick and die from eating in restaurants each year. This is a risk we take if we choose to eat out, that is no different. I will argue this point till the cows come home, I still think that raw milk is safe on the most part, this farm bottles it`s own milk, which I think could be the problem to some degree. I don`t know , but I`m headed to the barn to milk, and bring some back to the house for lunch. And the wife is making butter from it today also, as I have said this is still the good ole U.S.A. and don`t take that right away from me. Thanks Marc P.S. Haypoint is going to eat this news up.


Wow, I never knew that by drinking pasteurized milk I was unAmerican.

Obviously drinking raw milk is the patriotic thing to do!!!


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## kendall j (Mar 30, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Since this is so important to you then it should be a good project for you. I would love to see you go look for those stats and then post them here for us. Please be sure to keep the stats you post as honest and unbiased as possible, especially free of your religious bias.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since you are so obviously biased against religious reference, I will just use good old biology here. We can now digest milk into adulthood due to evolution. We have a specific gene that allows it. People lacking that gene are lactose intolerant. 

Our digestive system's design is irrelevant when it comes to getting sick from raw milk or not. Cleanliness is the issue. If you are buying raw milk be careful and know your source. The conditions have to be clean to avoid contamination. Pasteurizing milk simply allows mass production under less than ideal conditions. 

As many have pointed out, people get sick even with safeguards in place. So should we outlaw the regulated foods people still get sick from? I, for one, think that people should be able to purchase as they please and that risks and their consequences should be borne by the consumer and the seller. Liberals on the other had think that personal responsibility should play no part in decisions and people are stupid and need to be protected from themselves, thus all of the inane regulation we see in our lives. I'm not saying all regulation is bad, some is necessary, but some regulations are just plain stupid.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> Keep in mind that the entire point of this post was to support the "full government control of everything under the sun" agenda of many of the progressive liberals on this forum. It's part of their agenda.


Funny Ernie is back!!!


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## kendall j (Mar 30, 2007)

Reptyle said:


> Wow, I never knew that by drinking pasteurized milk I was unAmerican.
> 
> Obviously drinking raw milk is the patriotic thing to do!!!


You really got that from reading the post? The point being made was that having freedom of choice is American, not that pasteurized milk was somehow unAmerican.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Now I've never been diagnosed or anything, but if it makes anybody here feel any better, you can blame all of my personal loose screws on the fact that I've been drinking (and preferring) raw milk from, first Dad's cows, and then my own, since I was old enough to start milking. Same goes for my progeny.

I'm with Ernie, as near usual..... give me my own or my neighbor's raw dairy products, but leave those mega dairies strictly alone.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Reptyle said:


> Wow, I never knew that by drinking pasteurized milk I was unAmerican.
> 
> Obviously drinking raw milk is the patriotic thing to do!!!


Well here we go again, taking things out of context. I want you to be able to drink pasteurized milk, while allowing me to drink unpasteurized milk. Would you like to live someplace that they tell you what you can and can not eat or drink, watch on T.V., read a book, own a gun, own a house, go to whatever church you want to, what kind of car you drive, this is AMERICA land of the free, home of the brave. Just don`t mess with my right to own a cow and drink her milk. The will hit the fan if you try to take that away from me. So I`m sure this will not be done, but thanks for now. Marc


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

"Man paralyzed after breathing in"

"Man paralyzed after eating carrots"

"Man paralyzed after being totally ambulatory"

Come on... one event preceding another doesn't equal causality. In answer to "why drink raw milk"... why eat farm fresh eggs? because I like them more and I can do what I WANT.

<shakes head>

R


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Oggie said:


> And you source for that info is?


Look it up, its easily found by googleing it. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 people die per year from prescription drugs. 5500 die per year from food borne illnesses. That can be found on the CDC site. They also break it down, and veggies are responsible for 35,000,000 sicknesses a year.


Jeff


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

naturelover said:


> Since this is so important to you then it should be a good project for you. I would love to see you go look for those stats and then post them here for us. Please be sure to keep the stats you post as honest and unbiased as possible, especially free of your religious bias.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aren't you kinda bringing your religious beliefs into this since you're saying God didn't intend(you say you know what God is/was thinking regarding milk) into matters of human health? or is knowing God's mind "not" religious?

There are plenty of people who can drink/eat milk just fine. I guess we shouldn't eat chicken eggs either? or caviar? or anything that comes from a seed since the seed was "intended" to become a new baby plant? or a tuber, rhizome or a squash flower? where does this intention end?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

WindowOrMirror said:


> "Man paralyzed after breathing in"
> 
> "Man paralyzed after eating carrots"
> 
> ...


Thats because the certain bunch that post against raw milk, along with the government doesn't want you doing what you want to do. If someone wants to buy raw milk, they should be able to do so. If people are willing to take the risk to eat ANYTHING. They are agreeing to a contract that its THEY who took the risk, and its not the farmer that MADE them do it..


Why is it ok for companies to sell products that kill people, yet the farmer is hammered on as if he is running a detention camp.


Jeff


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

JeffNY said:


> Look it up, its easily found by googleing it. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 people die per year from prescription drugs. 5500 die per year from food borne illnesses. That can be found on the CDC site. They also break it down, and veggies are responsible for 35,000,000 sicknesses a year.
> 
> 
> Jeff


I've seen that breakdown before. What surprised me most from it was that more people die being squished underneath falling VENDING MACHINES than from shark attacks. 

Now I hear the theme from Jaws in my mind every time I pass by a vending machine.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Ernie, I think were going to need a bigger boat, He He , ain`t life fun, I can see it now, two guys pull into a parking lot, they get out ,one says to the other I have the white stuff, you got the cash? They open their car trunks, one driver hands over a small amount of cash, the other hands over two bottles of raw milk. Think it won`t happen, think again. God Bless America, Thanks Marc


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

JeffNY said:


> Look it up, its easily found by googleing it. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 people die per year from prescription drugs. 5500 die per year from food borne illnesses. That can be found on the CDC site. They also break it down, and veggies are responsible for 35,000,000 sicknesses a year.
> 
> 
> Jeff


I did look it up. What I found said about 32,000.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

wyld thang said:


> Aren't you kinda bringing your religious beliefs into this since you're saying God didn't intend(you say you know what God is/was thinking regarding milk) into matters of human health? or is knowing God's mind "not" religious?


Okay, point taken. It just really annoys me when people toss god around as an excuse for why it's okay for them to do the things they do because that's what _they_ want to do. :grump:

.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

naturelover said:


> Okay, point taken. It just really annoys me when people toss god around as an excuse for why it's okay for them to do the things they do because that's what _they_ want to do. :grump:
> 
> .


I totally agree 

but not about the milk part


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

kendall j said:


> You really got that from reading the post? The point being made was that having freedom of choice is American, not that pasteurized milk was somehow unAmerican.


Hey, that's pretty good...I didn't even see springvalley's lips move...tell me, where exactly does he stick his hand when he wants you to speak on his behalf?


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

springvalley said:


> Well here we go again,


This is like a catchphrase for you, isn't it?


Proof:



> *Here we go again*, those of us that drink and sell raw milk, choose to do so because this still is america.


BTW, what would this country be if we people couldn't drink, and sell, raw milk? And, if we're going to be patriotic, should the name of the continent be capitalized? Additionally, Is this an *A*merican thing, or is it a U.S. citizen thing?

Lemme guess, "You can have my dairy cow, when you pry her from my cold, dead, hand."


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Thats kinda rude Reptyle, He does make a good point though, don`t we all have the right to do what we want? back at ya. Marc


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well here we go again; One Reptyle being skwished under a cows hoof. He He by the way do you want to turn in your guns? I know you have some. He He Thanks my patriotic buddy, Marc


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Trying to alarm me about each and every cause of injury or death does not work. Just about everything can kill someone. 

One cannot handle the onslaught of threats we're informed of daily without being able to put them in perspective. That is why we need incidence rates so we can determine relative risk. For example, deaths per mile travelled is much lower in airplanes than automobiles, yet airplane crashes are much more dramatic and get more atttention. It is irresponsible to scare people away from flying so they drive instead. In effect, you are increasing their chance of death.

Likewise, I need to know the rate of illness or death from 1,000 servings of raw milk vs pasteurized milk. I have added up among my relatives, over 700 person-years of raw milk drinking without any known illness or deaths. And sanitation wasn't great when I grew up compared to what I practice now.

Even if rates of illness are higher somewhere does not mean that applies to my cow. I've seen people post cases here of TB from cheese from raw milk, but the cheese came from Mexico. That's like me worrying about my kid getting polio here - it is eradicated.

My immediate fear each day is getting killed on the highway.

Long-term, the biggest causes of illness and death are heart disease, cancer and diabetes. Lack of exercise and junk food and drink are big contributors to those deaths. 

I spend much time going out and working to make feed for the cow, feed her, milk her and shovel her manure - all so I can drink her milk.

Nobody would worry about my health if I sat on my rear all day and drove to the store to buy pasteurized milk and soda pop. Then I would be fine and dandy, right? Nobody writes articles about each case of diabetes resulting from people switching from milk to sugar-filled pop. Just isn't dramatic enough. Is raw milk really our biggest concern these days?

I am hearing that diabetes is becoming epidemic and will shorten the next generation's lifespan. 

Of course, the government subsidizes corn farming, so we can make cheap high fructose corn syrup to put in all the pop - then the government can come up with some programs to fight obesity in kids and can provide health care for all to treat the problems it helped create.

By the way, the idea that cow's milk is only for calves: Should we pasteurize the cow's udder before the calf nurses?


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Amen DJ !!!! thanks Marc


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

DJ in WA said:


> By the way, the idea that cow's milk is only for calves: Should we pasteurize the cow's udder before the calf nurses?


Heh. Those silly calves. They'll put anything in their mouths.

Realistically though, the ability to digest milk in adults is a genetic mutation. Almost every other mammalian species loses it.

However, if you look at the historical map of the world, every civilization where that genetic mutation prospered was a strong herding society who went from nomadic or agrarian lifestyles to a very strong nation that conquered their non-herding neighbors.

So there's a lot to be said for the ability to digest milk. Let's hear it for genetic mutations!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Such is freedom... sometimes people must get sick and die... better to lose a small handful of people for freedom's sake, instead of the enforced slavery of safety.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Keep in mind that the entire point of this post was to support the "full government control of everything under the sun" agenda of many of the progressive liberals on this forum. It's part of their agenda.





> What amazes me is that people who show concern over raw milk, show absolutely no concern over the things that cause THOUSANDS of deaths per year, the very things regulated and approved by the government. Lets see some consistency with concerns, vs simply focusing on one little insignificant thing.


I earn my living in the dairy industry, so this incident is of special concern to me. As Haypoint stated earlier, this kind of negative publicity gives the whole industry a black eye. 

You will note that I did not call for a ban on raw milk; I merely advised people to be careful. Choose wisely!



> I've milked in a 'REAL Dairy Farmers' parlor more than once and when you have a dozen cows in the parlor, sometimes things happen, like one of the milkers falling off and before you can get there to get it back on the cow, it sucks up a fresh cow patty and that goes into the tank.
> But don't worry, it's pasturized. So now you get to drink cooked cow manure. Cause that's what happens in a REAL DAIRY FARMERS parlor sometimes which is why the gov wants it pasturized. So the germs are cooked out of the cow hockey without removing the hockey from the fluid milk


And it sounds like the same thing may have happened at the 130-cow dairy in question ... EXCEPT the milk wasn't pasteurized, so the germs WEREN'T cooked out, and now a man has suffered what may be irreparable harm as a result.



> If you are buying raw milk be careful and know your source. The conditions have to be clean to avoid contamination.


Which may lead to a false sense of security. The place may be teeming with bacteria despite LOOKING tidy. You can't see germs!



> I have added up among my relatives, over 700 person-years of raw milk drinking without any known illness or deaths. And sanitation wasn't great when I grew up compared to what I practice now.


And I'll bet you (and your relatives) are (or were) milking those cows, and handling those cows, and were exposed to and developed a tolerance to the pathogens shed by them. 

It's an entirely different story when a "city person" (especially an old, young or immune-compromised one) buys a gallon of raw milk from the dairy case without ever coming into contact with a cow. Their immune system certainly hasn't been primed for a nice slug of campylobacter!



> By the way, the idea that cow's milk is only for calves: Should we pasteurize the cow's udder before the calf nurses?


An interesting point! At least some brands of the calf milk replacer that is commonly fed to dairy calves has been pasteurized. As one manufacturer's web site states: "Calves are especially vulnerable to disease. Diseases such as Johne's, Bovine Viral Diarrhea, Bovine Leukosis Virus, pasteurella, salmonella, E. coli and mycoplasma can be transmitted from cow to calf through unpastuerized milk. Biosecurity and disease prevention issues contribute greatly to the popularity and use of milk replacers. Merrick's not only purchases pasteurized milk ingredients for making milk replacers, but we also include pasteurization as a key step in our manufacturing process."

In closing: several people cited the fact that other foods also have sickened people, which is, of course, true. But I suspect that producers of those foods would ameliorate the risks if there were a way to do so that did not substantially change or damage the product -- if for no other reason than the fact lawsuits can be devastating to a businesses' bottom line!

Let's take spinach, which killed several people a few years ago. I'm not as knowledgeable about spinach as I am about cows, but I'd guess that there isn't an adequate way to kill bacteria on fresh spinach without cooking it, and thus a person who wants raw spinach has to assume the risk. Cooked spinach and raw spinach are two very different things. I'm not sure the same can be said of raw and pasteurized milk. Yes, some nutrients are lost in the pasteurization process, but I suspect the biggest difference consumers notice between raw and processed milk is the result of raw milk's lack of homogenization, NOT pasteurization!

Down from my soapbox now.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

springvalley said:


> Well here we go again; One Reptyle being skwished under a cows hoof. He He by the way do you want to turn in your guns? I know you have some. He He Thanks my patriotic buddy, Marc


Nice dodge. Don't give up your day job...The cows may be smarter, but never forget you have opposable thumbs. If they don't appreciate that, it certainly seems someone on this forum does.

I'll give you one more chance, "my patriotic buddy" what nation was it we lived in again?


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Heh. Those silly calves. They'll put anything in their mouths.
> 
> Realistically though, the ability to digest milk in adults is a genetic mutation. Almost every other mammalian species loses it.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're skirting the edge of using the Big E word that most bible beaters hate with a passion...


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

JeffNY said:


> What amazes me is that people who show concern over raw milk, show absolutely no concern over the things that cause THOUSANDS of deaths per year, the very things regulated and approved by the government.
> 
> 
> Lets see some consistency with concerns, vs simply focusing on one little insignificant thing.
> ...


Jeff the thread is about Raw Milk. We are trying to stay on topic. 

btw - the majority of people are concerned about thousands of deaths related to things regulated and approved by the gov. including the safety of our food supply....ie milk
OK?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> Jeff the thread is about Raw Milk. We are trying to stay on topic.
> 
> btw - the majority of people are concerned about thousands of deaths related to things regulated and approved by the gov. including the safety of our food supply....ie milk
> OK?


And you see absolutely no concern illustrated by anyone. But you say they are concerned..

DO SOMETHING about it, vs "thinking I have a concern".



Jeff


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I can`t believe how rude a Reptyle can be(yes I can), I come on here usually to give some advise, get some advise, get some entertainment, learn a few things, talk to a few good people, and just enjoy myself. So all I am going to say to you, being you have never met me, is "sticks and stones" I don`t know what burr got under your saddle but maybe your just having a bad day(or month). I hold no bad thoughts toward you so have a good and blessed day, in America. Thanks Marc P.S. I enjoy talking with everyone on here, regardless if we agree on things or not.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Reptyle said:


> Sounds like you're skirting the edge of using the Big E word that most bible beaters hate with a passion...


micro-evolution, yes

macro-evolution, no evidence

just sayin 

I was also going to say good point WG about city people not being exposed to and "tolerant" of bacteria, makes a huge difference.


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Please, please, Lyra! Tell me you are not infering that because the milk comes from an Amish farm it is somehow free from deadly pathogens.
> 
> In every product and every line of work, people are individuals. There are Amish that build poor furnature, make cookies that are tasteless, sell horses that are lame and sell contaminated raw milk. Just a few weeks ago, an Amish dairy was shut down after a bunch of people injested enough bacteria from their raw milk to make them sick.
> 
> Amish are people, too.


No, my point is that if you know a company is putting out a bad product, then go find another source. It's not like there is only one farm selling milk in Western PA. It would be the same as someone living on the Atlantic Coast saying he can't find anyone selling fish.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Would like to know if in fact the person who contracted the illnesses, if it was from milk. Or if it was from something else? Because as I said, the first question you get when your in for being sick from food, is "did you drink raw milk". How many people that have been sickened by other things, with the same disease, make it into the news?


I bet not many. No body cares if its other foods, only if its milk. The war on milk, reminds me of the war on drugs, bunch of BS.


Jeff


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

Another observation or two:

If there were some means to test raw milk in a few minutes, that would help. To my knowledge, this is not possible today. 

It helps to visit the farm and see their practises for all the animals. Are they healthy, are there any routines for sanitation, and so forth. Of course, that supposes the consumer knows what to look for when it comes to good animal husbandry. But a filthy place and poorly cleaned milking areas would give me pause. 

A friend does goats and has a closed farm as well-little risk there because they are fastidious about cleaniless every single day. The goats are on testing regular too, of course. 

Another person I know contracted that campobylactor (mild form I guess, not familiar with it at all) shortly after acquiring goats. I presume this was through some fault in their handling, husbandry and milking practises-does anyone know? Or is it a common bacteria that can be picked up easily?


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

Well I can tell you that the sickest I have ever been was with campylobacter. I got it from a salad that was cross contaminated at a restaurant.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Kmac15 said:


> Well I can tell you that the sickest I have ever been was with campylobacter. I got it from a salad that was cross contaminated at a restaurant.


Yet you will never see that in the news. And I doubt the ones against the sale of raw milk will acknowledge that, that its a possibility.


The AMA is against raw milk, should it surprise anyone that they are against it? Yet they promote deadly drugs.


Something really wrong here.


Jeff


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

The article SAID the empty milk bottle tested positive for the bacteria. 

I will only remind the non dairying folks that the person who milks the cows,
on that particular shift, has ALL the control of what is in your milk right then.

Do you trust them? How can you if you dont even know them? 
Heck, I have worked on dairies where I wouldn't drink the milk
if certain co-workers were on shift that day. 

The OP posted this article, not to stir the 'raw' debate,
but to show people that there is indeed a REAL issue with milk sanitation. 

FWIW, I would have no trouble at all consuming springvalley's milk or JeffNY's either.

As long as THEY were doing the milking themselves.


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## navygirl (Oct 23, 2005)

Just as a side note, the same folks that are trying to make sure we can't drink our milk raw are the same folks that allow MSG to be labeled as "spices" and "natural flavorings", etc. They also have no problem telling us that margarine (PLASTIC) is a healthy food. Personnally, I will do my own research and eat what I know to be healthy.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Yet you will never see that in the news. And I doubt the ones against the sale of raw milk will acknowledge that, that its a possibility.


Well, I wouldn't save "never." 

I Googled "campylobacter outbreak" and two of the 10 links on the first page were reports of outbreaks linked to non-dairy products (stir-fried foods and chicken). The other 8 involved raw milk.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I'd like to see some good stats of how many die from raw milk consumption, then numbers from salmonella, and then numbers from E coli.
> 
> Then I would like to see the stats from the salmonella cases that were contracted from the grocery store and then from restaurants.
> Then I would like to see the stats from the E coli cases that were contracted from the grocery store, and then from restaurants.
> ...


All of them would be less than the deaths from our consumption of sterilized and refined foods.

In fact doctors are the 3rd leading cause of death in our country, but you don't see people warning about seeing them.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

This issue always gets turned around to something else. As if by saying, he did it too. Or he did it MORE. or he did it FIRST! will change the point. 

That is very juevenile. Heck, my kids do it all the time. 

Honestly, when people who work In the Dairy Industry remind you to "be careful" it is not because they are trying to stop you from making educated choices for yourself. 

The best thing you can do is learn all you can about anything: going to the doctor, vaccinating your children, eating raw {anything},voting in an election, buying a car, etc. 

Milk is an amazing thing. The same things that make it so healthy to mammals also make it a great breeding ground for bacteria. If you are not confident that it has not been exposed to pathogens your body can deal with, do you KNOWINGLY feed it to your baby? This is not about 'big business' vs 'small farmers'. 

Of course people have not all just dropped dead from drinking raw milk. I have had it all my days! Many generations before me too. However, there are real and valid reasons to QUESTION the safety. that doesn't mean BAN it. It means to know what the risks are.

Just QUESTION the safety, please? Think about it.

Being paralyzed by something? That is no joke. 
Use judgement. Educate yourself.Know your source.

Not just with MILK, but with everything.
There, that is my opposable-thumb-having 2 cents.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pouncer said:


> Another observation or two:
> 
> If there were some means to test raw milk in a few minutes, that would help. To my knowledge, this is not possible today.
> 
> ...


Seeing the dairy and cows are filthy is a sure sign that the milk is likely unsafe. However, clean cows fed superior feed in clean barns can, and do, transmit dangerous bacteria.

You can't have it both ways. You can't allow customers to tour your facilities AND have an effective bio-secure closed farm. Those are opposites.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

southerngurl said:


> All of them would be less than the deaths from our consumption of sterilized and refined foods.
> 
> In fact doctors are the 3rd leading cause of death in our country, but you don't see people warning about seeing them.


Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
Let's cut through the BS and get one thing straight. There is a major difference between totals and percentages. 

If you have a product that is sold by the millions of gallons every day and in a year's time 10 people get sick from it and another product that has sold 100,000 in a year&#8217;s time, but only 2 people got sick, which is safer? As a percentage, the first product is twice as safe.

If you market a drug to a hundred million people and each person takes 500 pills a year and this drug keeps those hundred million people from getting sick or dying, I think I can live with a few thousand negative reactions/ side effects and even a few deaths.

Hard to attribute a drug's use with death. As an example, shortly after Viagra hit the market, there were a number of prescription holders that had massive heart attacks. Upon further investigation, it wasn't the fault of the drug, but in the new found cardio-exercise that blew up their hearts.:smiley-laughing013:

There is no way you can compare, by numbers of incidents, the billions of pills consumed in this country and the thousands of gallons of raw milk consumed. 

Prescription drugs, by their very nature are dangerous. That's why they are sold only by the advice of your doctor. Food is supposed to be good for you. Comparing raw milk to FDA approved drugs isn't an apple to oranges comparison. It is a apple to Oxicodin comparison.:hysterical:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> Just as a side note, the same folks that are trying to make sure we can't drink our milk raw are the same folks that allow MSG to be labeled as "spices" and "natural flavorings", etc. They also have no problem telling us that margarine (PLASTIC) is a healthy food. Personnally, *I will do my own research and eat what I know to be healthy.*


Amen Navygirl!!


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
> Let's cut through the BS and get one thing straight. There is a major difference between totals and percentages.
> 
> If you market a drug to a hundred million people and each person takes 500 pills a year and this drug keeps those hundred million people from getting sick or dying, I think I can live with a few thousand negative reactions/ side effects and even a few deaths.
> ...


Haypoint; You say you can live with a few thousand negative reaction/ side effects and even a few deaths, but yet you won`t allow those of us to drink raw milk with only a few negavtive reactions/ side effects and even a few deaths.
Also I think there are a few more than a few thousand gallons of raw milk drank in this country a year, I just figured up what I sell, and I`m just a small fish in the sea of raw milk sellers and buyers in this country.
So once again I say, allow us the right to keep drinking and selling to those that want to drink, our natural home raised,farm fresh, raw "REAL" milk. Thanks Marc


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

JeffNY said:


> And you see absolutely no concern illustrated by anyone. But you say they are concerned..
> 
> DO SOMETHING about it, vs "thinking I have a concern".
> 
> ...


OK, Advise me Oh, Jeff. What shall I do? What shall I do?

I don't drink raw milk. I support dairy farmers by buying their pasterized products. I have dear friends who are in the dairy business. Hummmm? 

Want me to march on _____? for you? LOL


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> OK, Advise me Oh, Jeff. What shall I do? What shall I do?
> 
> I don't drink raw milk. I support dairy farmers by buying their pasterized products. I have dear friends who are in the dairy business. Hummmm?
> 
> Want me to march on _____? for you? LOL


Again, you voice a concern, but the "stay on topic" shows your lack of overall concern.


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
> Let's cut through the BS and get one thing straight. There is a major difference between totals and percentages.
> 
> If you have a product that is sold by the millions of gallons every day and in a year's time 10 people get sick from it and another product that has sold 100,000 in a yearâs time, but only 2 people got sick, which is safer? As a percentage, the first product is twice as safe.
> ...



Never seen things twisted so bad..


Jeff


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Willowgirl!!!!!!! SHAME ON YOU FOR :stirpot:!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

And as JeffNY said, if you come down with some type of food poisoning, the Department of Health asks all kinds of questions. My Father-In-Law was sick and in the hospital, and they did blood tests. One came back with Listeria, and the hospital contacted the doctor and Department of Health who wanted to talk to us. Asked all kinds of questions - Where does he buy fruits and vegetables, where does he buy his deli meats and other meats, etc plus "Did he drink raw milk?" 

He did. We bought it for him from the local dairy. But I am 100% certain it wasn't the raw milk. With my in-laws being in their 80's, they don't eat right. And I'm sure they ate something old from their fridge - something WE would have thrown out - but you know how old people are.

For those who say "You shouldn't be allowed to drink milk, because I don't want to pay if you get sick.", well, you pay everyday for things like that. 

The neighbor down the road who has smoked cigarettes since he was 13 - and is now diagnosed with lung cancer. (Smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer? WHO KNEW?!?!?!?) He doesn't have health insurance - so YOU get to pay!

Your cousin, who doesn't have a job, but eats Big Macs at McDonald's everyday. She doesn't have a job because she is severely obese and has health problems because of it. (Eating Big Macs everyday makes you fat? WHO KNEW?!?!?!?) She, of course, doesn't have health insurance (no job) - so YOU get to pay!

Your co-worker's teenage son at college happens to binge drink, and has drank so much, he ends up with brain damage and in a coma. (You can actually drink too much? WHO KNEW?!?!?!?) Your co-worker only works part-time, thus has no health insurance. The son is now in a nursing home with no chance of recovery, and with no insurance - YOU get to pay!

You pay for plenty of people everyday. A few sick people from drinking raw milk (if THAT is what it really is!) won't matter much to you.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Willowgirl!!!!!!! SHAME ON YOU FOR :stirpot:!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> And as JeffNY said, if you come down with some type of food poisoning, the Department of Health asks all kinds of questions. My Father-In-Law was sick and in the hospital, and they did blood tests. One came back with Listeria, and the hospital contacted the doctor and Department of Health who wanted to talk to us. Asked all kinds of questions - Where does he buy fruits and vegetables, where does he buy his deli meats and other meats, etc plus "Did he drink raw milk?"
> 
> ...


Deli meats are a big source for people sickened by listeria.


Jeff


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

Sorry but I didn't read thru every post. My question is how many others got sick from this milk? Where is all the other people that drank from the same batch of milk? Is it possible that the milk got tainted after it was bought? How hard would it be for a kid or even an adult put their finger in the mouth of the jar or even drink out of the jar. Ok let's ban or make everything that kills or hurts people. Go snatch all the beer out of the stores along with all the wine and whiskey. Now you are really saving money and thousands of lives. These topics crack me up. We get all bent out of shape when something like this happens but allow drunk drivers to kill inocent people and get a slap on the hand. Wake up America and start saving lives where we can do the most good. Sam


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I don't know how it is in WV, but Michigan gave up hand slapping for drunk drivers decades ago. Nobody is "allowing drunk drivers, it has been seriously illegal for some time.
Two people can eat the same amount of infected milk and only one get sick. Often when people get food poisoning, they pass it off as 24 hour flu. 

Which way are you on this topic? Most people that want raw milk legalized, also want the government out of the other areas as well. What I'm reading is you question that the guy nearly died from a bovine STD in his raw milk, but want America to start saving lives by banning drunk driving and outlawing beer, wine and whiskey. There is no question that the guy got the bovine STD from the raw milk and I think we've tried Prohibition already and it didn't turn out so good.

If some kid has bovine STD on his fingers or lips, I don't want his fingers in my milk glass and I want someone to find out where that kid's fingers have been.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Bovine STD??? what the heck are you talking about. It is a bacteria, not an STD, nobody is having unsafe cow sex. Haypoint you are way off on this one. Fecal bacteria, which could also have been from a pet if the man had one is possible. You must also run into a crowded theater and yell fire. You have got to be kidding is all I have to say. > Marc


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> There is no question that the guy got the bovine STD from the raw milk
> 
> .






OMIGOD..That is SO DISGUSTING


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## chas (Dec 12, 2004)

Well I've waded thru all this to make sure how many don't really know what they are talking about,and could care less, because they just know they have an opinion!!!!
My wife and I drink Adam Deans milk as do our grown kids and our grandkids.
We have always concidered him to be very good at sanitizing and the whole bit.
The state found the lab that was testing the milk was doing it wrong and giving a negative result , so they kept on doing what they normally do!
When he gets two clean tests in a row we start buying milk again.
If they put him out of buisness I guess I have to start saving my own goat milk.I work 7 days a week and shifts(impossible to milk right at this time)Because of the risk of pasturized and particularly homogenized milks affect on our arteries and general health I won't buy in the store!!!.
And let me say one word to really tick off certain intolerant people "GOD ":nana:
Chas


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Amen !!! Chas > Thanks Marc


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## paintlady (May 10, 2007)

I will drink raw milk and take my chances. That should be my right to free choice in this country of ours.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forums...the dorsal fins break the surface...Why do they leave me such openings??!!


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

What I was saying is one person get sick from milk and everyone goes off. Yet thousands each year end up killed or disabled for live from drunk drivers that a large percentage have been convicted of dui before. Yet you put your life at risk from them each time you get on the road. Now all the other dangers, cell phones, eating and driving, putting on makeup while driving, and the list goes on. So many want a band wagon to jump on. Lets get on the wagon to get our country back on track. we have millions out of work but more and more of our jobs go out of the country because we won't do the jobs because they don't pay enough. What is enough. If I can only sell a shirt for 12 dollars and it cost me 13 to make it something has to give. This is part of what I am talking about. Let's get onto some of the things that might change things in our country. I am sure this farmer did not knowingly allow tainted milk be sold. Even if he did it should be my choice to buy his milk as it is your choice if you desire to buy whiskey or pop or what you want, drink it and get in a car and drive. Smoking causes cancer? Why can you still buy smokes? Big industry is in control. I don't know the laws here on milk and stuff like that, never had a reason to look them up. DW and I do work with the local Health Dept., Red Cross, and several other agencies in the county. We just got recertified in first aid and cpr this week. How do we know when there is a problem with any product we eat? Usually someone gets sick. Last one pops to mind was spinish and you could still buy it at the store. Just a few more of my thoughts but I could write all night. Sam


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

springvalley said:


> Bovine STD??? what the heck are you talking about. It is a bacteria, not an STD, nobody is having unsafe cow sex. Haypoint you are way off on this one. Fecal bacteria, which could also have been from a pet if the man had one is possible. You must also run into a crowded theater and yell fire. You have got to be kidding is all I have to say. > Marc


http://www.nadis.org.uk/DiseasesCattle/CampylobacterInfection/Campylobacter Infection.htm

Campylobacter infection (Vibriosis) 

The NADIS data show that abortion and infertility remain significant problems on farm. One of the most important causes of infertility and abortion in UK cattle is infection by Campylobacter fetus. This organism can cause sporadic abortion, abortion storms, metritis, delayed return to heat, and very low pregnancy rates. 

How do cows get infected 

Sporadic abortion, that is the one-off case, is probably associated with the bacteria getting in via the guts. However the vast majority of problems associated with Campylobacter are linked to venereal infection. In most cases the source of infection is an infected mature bull bought onto the farm, which then spreads the bacteria as it mates. The most high-risk animal is a hire bull. Younger bulls and breeding females are less common sources of infection but any animal that has been previously mated is a potential source. 


Apology accepted.:nana:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Iâve been driving drunk for my whole life and never had an accident. :buds:I think it is my right. They sell booze and they make cars. If you are afraid of getting hit by a drunk driver, just stay off the road. You have no right pushing your non-drunk driving beliefs on me. More people die of heart disease than killed by drunk drivers and you donât see the CEO of Krispy Kream going to prison.

The government has no right to send out their boot-legged thugs to stop my car and throw me in jail. Why donât they go after Monsanto, thatâs where the real crime is.

Just because some idiot that doesnât know how to drive drunk and slams into a school bus, why blame it on alcohol? He was just a bad driver.

I canât sell hamburger that has manure ground up in it. I canât sell spinach that has had pig manure sprayed on it. I canât sell strawberries that the pickers urinated on. I canât bypass the sink after I take a dump and prepare your salad in a restaurant. I canât short change you at my gas pumps. I canât sell raw milk. I canât drive drunk. All over-regulation.

I say âGrow Up, Americaâ Let the buyer beware, let the drivers beware. If I slam into a tree, it is my own business. If I slam into you, tough, you should have been watching out for this known possibility. 

Letâs not just stop with milk. Letâs roll back the health standards of everything. Get big Government out of our dairies, chicken processing plants, gas pumps, pesticide regulations, imported food inspections, everything. Just let the buyer beware. 

If we really want to make a difference, letâs put a ban on the real killer, all prescription drugs. We got along for hundreds of years without them. Probably a Government plot to get us addicted to pharmaceuticals.:stirpot:


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> I&#8217;ve been driving drunk for my whole life and never had an accident. :buds:I think it is my right. They sell booze and they make cars. If you are afraid of getting hit by a drunk driver, just stay off the road. You have no right pushing your non-drunk driving beliefs on me. More people die of heart disease than killed by drunk drivers and you don&#8217;t see the CEO of Krispy Kream going to prison.
> 
> The government has no right to send out their boot-legged thugs to stop my car and throw me in jail. Why don&#8217;t they go after Monsanto, that&#8217;s where the real crime is.
> 
> ...




You really don't have any idea why your against raw milk. What you are for is big government, and big government programs.


Also I like it how you think its ok that thousands die per year from things the government oks, and doesn't shut down..

And why are you against raw milk? But your not against anything else? Never ever see you post against anything other than raw milk.. Maybe you like to ramble on and make examples to try to press your point of view, that is the government's point of view, more so than your own.


Jeff


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

I haven't followed full thread: Perhaps the question to ask the raw milk seller is 'Do you and your family (and employees) drink this milk in exactly the way in which you are going to sell it to me?

If they walk over to a sink, wash out a glass, draw a glassful and consume it, I'd feel prettty darn good safe.

If the pimply-faced kid says, well, no we still buy store milk. Under the new law we just have an opportunity to sell part of what is in the bulk tank for significantly more per gallon.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Ken Scharabok said:


> I haven't followed full thread: Perhaps the question to ask the raw milk seller is 'Do you and your family (and employees) drink this milk in exactly the way in which you are going to sell it to me?
> 
> If they walk over to a sink, wash out a glass, draw a glassful and consume it, I'd feel prettty darn good safe.
> 
> If the pimply-faced kid says, well, no we still buy store milk. Under the new law we just have an opportunity to sell part of what is in the bulk tank for significantly more per gallon.



Could it also be that small dairy farmers cannot compete with the large ones who can afford to sterilise properly? 

Studies have shown that there is no differance in store bought milk and raw except for the bacteria that may be in there. I wont even go into the pus and blood they find in milk from cows with mastitis...

So gross....I never want to touch milk again


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

JeffNY said:


> You really don't have any idea why your against raw milk.
> 
> Jeff



the fact that you can be paralyzed from consuming it should be reason enough. no? 

That was the whole point of people beginning to sterilise it. Probably because people were getting sick and dying. If it was so Safe..they wouldnt have needed to bother sterilising it. 

sanitation has much to do with it..yes..but lets face it.....you can smell a cow barn miles away. I have owned cows. They are not clean animals.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

lilmizlayla said:


> the fact that you can be paralyzed from consuming it should be reason enough. no?
> 
> That was the whole point of people beginning to sterilise it. Probably because people were getting sick and dying. If it was so Safe..they wouldnt have needed to bother sterilising it.
> 
> sanitation has much to do with it..yes..but lets face it.....you can smell a cow barn miles away. I have owned cows. They are not clean animals.


And there are plenty of people that have been sickened and are sickened from pastuerized milk. I found it a little odd when I drank Pasteurized milk I would end up with a stomach ache, let alone the after taste it had. Milk should NOT have an aftertaste.



Jeff


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

And how do we know if it was actually the milk that paralyzed him? People drink raw milk all the time. What if he did something in conjuction that the report didn't mention?


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well Lilmizlayla, Size of the dairy has nothing to do with sanitation, I know huge farms that are clean and some that are filthy, same with the small farms. I never put anything in my milk tank that I won`t drink myself. Cows are only as clean as you allow them to be, if you have knee deep poop, you are going to have dirty cows. If they are out on pasture and a bedded shed they are going to be fairly clean. And as far as a dairy barn smelling, I just love the smell of a cow barn, my wife thinks I`m a little loopy, but thats just me. So as they say size don`t matter, > Thanks Marc


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

springvalley said:


> Well Lilmizlayla, Size of the dairy has nothing to do with sanitation, I know huge farms that are clean and some that are filthy, same with the small farms. I never put anything in my milk tank that I won`t drink myself. Cows are only as clean as you allow them to be, if you have knee deep poop, you are going to have dirty cows. If they are out on pasture and a bedded shed they are going to be fairly clean. And as far as a dairy barn smelling, I just love the smell of a cow barn, my wife thinks I`m a little loopy, but thats just me. So as they say size don`t matter, > Thanks Marc



yes, but apparently not everyone is a clean with their animals as you are. You do have to admit that. There are bacteria that is transmittable by not sterilizing milk. Why take that risk? I guess that is my question. There is a reason we (US) does not allow for human consumption of raw milk.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Again, are we all so stupid we can't decide for ourselves to drink raw milk? I think if we are all stupid enough to fill our bodies with pizzas and Twinkies and Doritos, we should have the choice to drink raw milk.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Springvalley makes a good point, one that many on here are refusing to admit. There are clean and dirty dairies of every size. To believe anything else is pure and simple class envy.

But let&#8217;s take this a step farther. In very general terms we can believe that a dairy that has rapid removal of manure, well drained ample pastures, well lit and clean barns and plenty of modern stainless pipelines with frigid bulk tanks, there is less chance for some types of bacteria.

But where I seem to be losing some of you is the undeniable fact that diseases and bacteria can attack every farm, often without outward signs. Thinking the milk is safe from a cow that &#8220;looks healthy&#8221; is a false sense of security. If humans could detect disease by sight, STDs would have been wiped out thousands of years ago.

I&#8217;m sure the milking crew at Dean Dairy, source of the tainted milk that rendered some poor guy paralyzed, regularly drinks milk directly from the bulk tank. If not, I&#8217;ll bet they feed it to their families. I doubt anyone is knowingly selling raw milk that can sicken paralyze or kill anyone. I see no signs of ill intent. Yet, cases of illnesses caused from raw milk and cheeses made from raw milk happen with a degree of regularity. Good intentions do not insure safe raw milk.

Then there is the myth that raw milk sales are a key to small dairy profitability. While I&#8217;m sure Grade A milking standards vary from state to state, around here, the small dairies can&#8217;t afford to go Grade A. They can only market their milk for processing plants that make products like cheese. To maintain an on-farm bottling plant and provide store hours is much better suited to a larger operation. 

In Michigan, the huge dairy operations, often referred to as &#8220;Dutch Dairies&#8221; because farmers from Holland immigrate here, build and operate dairies that house over 5000 cows. They do not grow feed. They do not raise replacement heifers. They simply milk. I doubt they would create a raw milk side line. However, many &#8220;middle sized&#8221; dairies are always looking for ways to increase their bottom line. These would be the 100 to 1000 head operations. There are many of them. I know of only a few Grade A dairies with less than 100 cows. Those often depend on off farm income or are cash crop focused. 

In the &#8220;Are we so stupid&#8221; response, I&#8217;ll bet Pizza Hut and Frito-Lay would lose some business if every once in awhile someone was paralyzed by their products. If this discussion were about non-homogenized milk versus homogenized milk, I might side towards the non-processed argument. But whole milk has plenty of fat, right up there with pizza and Twinkies. But that isn&#8217;t where this discussion is. It is about groups of people unknowingly selling diseased and bacteria laden raw milk to people that buy it with the belief that it is healthier than pasteurized milk.

I do not believe legalization of raw milk sales will help the small producer, under 100 cows. Despite every attempt to market disease-free raw milk, there will be outbreaks. Government regulation/control of raw milk sales will allow closer observation of the tiny 5-10 cow dairies that sell within their local community. 

We saw what happened to apple sales after the 60 Minutes story about Alar pesticides on fruit. It turned out to be false, but the damage was done. We all saw pork purchases drop when the N1H1 influenza was erroneously called Swine Flu. East Coast and Florida spinach growers lost their whole crop because a California grower marketed a tainted product. I could go on and on. The point is Big Business isn&#8217;t afraid that raw milk sales will steal market share. Consumers getting sick from raw milk will affect the sales of the pasteurized product, too. Raw milk promotion methods that describe processed milk as unsafe or unhealthy unfairly diminish market share. 

The bacteria that causes paralysis was found in his system and in the milk bottle. Maybe it wasn&#8217;t the milk. Perhaps, just after drinking the milk, he fell off the roof of a building and is just unfairly blaming the bacteria? There are none so blind&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

lilmizlayla said:


> yes, but apparently not everyone is a clean with their animals as you are. You do have to admit that. There are bacteria that is transmittable by not sterilizing milk. Why take that risk? I guess that is my question. There is a reason we (US) does not allow for human consumption of raw milk.


Why take the risk? I enjoy the taste of whole raw milk, and I do take it for health reasons. I have drank raw milk the better part of my life, and I`m not going to stop now. There are also alot of states that allow the sale of raw milk, and some even sell it in stores(go figure).Why risk it? because when I get up in the morning, I take the risk of falling down the stairs, getting hit by a car, cow could kick me in the head, tractor could roll over on me, rocket could fall out of the sky on me. If I lived like eveything could kill me, I wouldn`t get out of bed.> Thanks Marc


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Who said that big farms are all dirty? Seems a certain someone assumes to much. What was said however is that the LARGE dairies for the most part have no interest in selling raw milk. They have other things they pursue, and for that matter, most of those are managed by the owners, but they have hired hands that run it.



Some certain people need to stop rambling, and read clearer.



Jeff


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

And Haypoint, That was about the most P.C. post that you have done, I still don`t agree with you about everything, but as I have said you and I are just going to disagree about this issue. I still don`t know why you say the small dairies can`t afford to be grade A, I am , and I have less than 20 cows,It is mostly keeping things clean.Well I think I`m done with this thread as we are not going to agree, so I am done beating the dead horse, so to speak.> Thanks To All of You, Marc P.S. until we meet again Haypoint.


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

My question to start with was," How many people got sick from this milk?" No one has answered. Was it tainted when it left the dairy? Now as far as being STUPID enough to drive drunk please don't come down here drunk driving. Maybe you should check into what booze does to your driving skills when you consume it. I know first hand what it does. I watched a test done with several big name race car drivers way back when. After one drink they started to make mistakes. When helping load a family of four into a meat wagon to go to the morgue and the drunk that killed them was standing with no injuries did I have to keep my self from pushing his stupid out into the path of an eighteen wheeler. Yep I sure did. When I was young and stupid I did drink and drive. Thank God I didn't kill some one but got smart enough to know that one drink and no drive. It is my belief that things can be bough but it is up to us to use them as they should be used. No one says drink bud and you can drive better. We just last night here had a State Trooper with a car stopped on a traffic stop with his lights flashing hit by a Dumb Drunk that thought he could drink and drive. Tonight that Trooper is in the hospital fighting for his life. OH and the drunk hit the patrol car first. Should the drunk be charged with drunk driving? Nope if this trooper dies he should be charged with murder. If you buy a gun should I have to be the one to duck bullets because it is your right to shoot where you want? I just hope no one has to have the death of people on their hands from some dumb actions the did. Now I will shut up. Sam


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

The official number is "no more than 8" right now. It wasn't just the immediate family of the man who is paralyzed, as far as I know.

The real problem here is that the people read on the internet that this was something healthy and good for them, and dove into it. It might just be the way everything I've heard has been phrased, but this family more or less insists that they never knew there could be a risk to drinking raw milk. And now they have had a very unfortunate event open their eyes. That's the part of personal responsibility that doesn't get the big thumbs up from most people.

Raw milk is neither deadly poison nor a miracle cure.

Kayleigh


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

That is right. If I eat or drink something that is bad for me so be it as long as I don't put others in danger. You are the first as far as I know to answer how many people got sick. I hope they get well. Sam


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Well, springvalley, I'm going to study the 386 pages of the most recent changes to Michigan's Grade A Regulations, and see if these local dairy farmers were just bluffing when they sold off their cows. Feel free in joining me in my educational research:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mda/MDA_DP_07PMOFinal_251324_7.pdf

tamsam, thanks for the reminder of the evils of drunk driving, I'll try to do better. Suddenly, I feel like just staying home, curling up on the couch and watching "Deliverence" again. 
I share your concern over those sickened by Dean's raw milk. Let's hope those other folks that got sick in Michigan from that Amish guy's raw milk, shipped in from Indiana, made a full recovery, too. Plus, bless all those starving pigmies in South America, too.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Well, springvalley, I'm going to study the 386 pages of the most recent changes to Michigan's Grade A Regulations, and see if these local dairy farmers were just bluffing when they sold off their cows. Feel free in joining me in my educational research:
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mda/MDA_DP_07PMOFinal_251324_7.pdf
> 
> tamsam, thanks for the reminder of the evils of drunk driving, I'll try to do better. Suddenly, I feel like just staying home, curling up on the couch and watching "Deliverence" again.
> I share your concern over those sickened by Dean's raw milk. Let's hope those other folks that got sick in Michigan from that Amish guy's raw milk, shipped in from Indiana, made a full recovery, too. Plus, bless all those starving pigmies in South America, too.


Unfortunately, the 300,000 that died last year from government approved drugs, cant recover.



Jeff


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

So, Jeff, do two wrongs make a right?


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> And how do we know if it was actually the milk that paralyzed him? People drink raw milk all the time. What if he did something in conjuction that the report didn't mention?


Wonder if he had a "flu shot"? We have a local who is confined to a wheelchair for life because of a flu shot - his mind is pretty well gone too. Many even die from such a shot. You know, the "government" is still shrieking "crisis"!!! "crisis"!!! "crisis"!!! "crisis"!!! "crisis"!!! and urging EVERYONE to take such a shot. 
BUT - don't drink "raw" milk - there is ONE person who became paralyzed from drinking it.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> So, Jeff, do two wrongs make a right?


Not answering for Jeff - but what the heck can something like this question EVER mean? 
No, two wrongs do NOT make a right - one doesn't, nor do any number a liberal can come up with - no amount of wrongs can ever make a right - sort of like banning, banning, banning the rights of Americans - making them wards of the federal government's nannies who feel they can take better care of them than they can take care of themselves.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

No, two wrongs don't make a right,,,,,,, but three left turns do!!  -Catherine


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Seems as if Willow has some skewed thinking. Whoever said two wrongs make a right? I am pointing out things that are far worse that none of the posters against raw milk mention, or ever gripe about. They act like they don't care. Again, the seem oriented towards big government, and things the government oks. But are against things that do not impact many people, and for that matter, some of the so called raw milk sicknesses are not always the raw milk, its reported as such due to the questioning at the hospital, singling out raw milk.


Let me ask this to those against raw milk. Do you think its ok for the government to allow the sale of Margarine? Found it interesting that its 1 molecule off from being plastic, it was fed to turkeys as a cheap feed, but killed them. It causes a 55% rise in heart disease, etc etc etc.


There are many things the government allows that cause health problems, yet the stuff they dont allow, seems to be fine. They dont allow the sale of those illegal drugs, because they dont want competition. We will NEVER see the cap on drugs, because they make more money, as drugs go up. Only takes an independent thinker to realize things, guess those for the government don't have the ability to think for themselves.. They singled themselves out nicely in this thread.


Jeff


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Seems as if Willow has some skewed thinking. Whoever said two wrongs make a right?


You did, in making the case that because the government allows other things that can harm us, it ought to allow one more. 

Actually, if the dangers associated with drinking raw milk were as well-publicized and widely known as, say, the dangers of tobacco use, I wouldn't have a problem with its sale. The consumer would indeed be making an informed decision. 

However, at present we have a population that for generations has perceived milk as "safe." 

I suspect it would only take a few disease outbreaks to "educate" them. 

It will be interesting to see how things turn out in Wisconsin!


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> You did, in making the case that because the government allows other things that can harm us, it ought to allow one more.
> 
> Actually, if the dangers associated with drinking raw milk were as well-publicized and widely known as, say, the dangers of tobacco use, I wouldn't have a problem with its sale. The consumer would indeed be making an informed decision.
> 
> ...


Thats your assumption. Just because I can't help with what you assume, doesn't mean it is accurate. I was pointing out that there things that people should be MORE concerned about, yet they don't act it. I raise questions why it's alright for those things to go on? Yet those against raw milk act like thousands are dying, and its an epidemic, etc etc.


Again, you do know what assume means?


Jeff


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

watcher said:


> Yous pays your money and yous takes your chances. This guy just rolled snake eyes.
> 
> If you want to drink raw milk go for it. But make sure you have enough insurance to pay if something like this goes wrong so I'm not forced to pay for your problems.
> 
> If I am forced to pay, which it looks like its heading that way, they I think I have a right to demand you not take such chances and demand the banning of raw milk sales and to make consumption of raw milk illegal.


:viking:
Did you Really just say that?!!


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

People been milking cows and goats for how many hundreds of years... how long has pasturization been around...
get a permit to breathe!


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

A result of a sterilized environment is this whole topic...


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

jBlaze said:


> People been milking cows and goats for how many hundreds of years... how long has pasturization been around...
> get a permit to breathe!


Pasteurized milk has its problems, and I doubt you will hear any problems mentioned associated with it, because they don't want to point out the flaws with something "safe".


The attitude some farms have is that "Its getting pasteurized". I know I don't want to drink milk other than my own, after seeing some operations.


Same goes with raw milk, buy from clean operations. Tour the farm, check the cows, investigate their feed. I bet you can figure out which is what. I know of a farm near here that sickened a couple of people, or so they say (nothing became of it, probably couldn't trace it back). I do know of people who don't like the taste of the milk. Again they feed a TMR..

Investigate your source, it will keep you safe. Look, the veggies and fruits in a store sicken millions, yet people dont complain and keep on buying. Yet i bet farmers markets you wont see that.


Jeff


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I was pointing out that there things that people should be MORE concerned about, yet they don't act it. I raise questions why it's alright for those things to go on?


The difference is that once a drug is found to cause harm (outside of the rare allergic reaction), it's generally pulled off the market, or not released in the first place. 

We already know raw milk has the propensity to be unsafe, though. We don't need to make it widely available, and allow people to sickened, to discover that the general public probably shouldn't be consuming it. However, it seems that's the course some jurisdictions are taking. I'm reminded of the old saying, "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it."


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> The difference is that once a drug is found to cause harm (outside of the rare allergic reaction), it's generally pulled off the market, or not released in the first place.
> 
> We already know raw milk has the propensity to be unsafe, though. We don't need to make it widely available, and allow people to sickened, to discover that the general public probably shouldn't be consuming it. However, it seems that's the course some jurisdictions are taking. I'm reminded of the old saying, "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it."


So they pull drugs off the market after they are found to give complications? Is that why they have warning after warning with commericals selling drugs? I guess they pulled those too? With 300,000 dieing each year, its painfully obvious they aren't doing enough.


Failed attempt at passing it off, and again, the government makes money off of drugs, its why they let them sell.


Jeff


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> We already know raw milk has the propensity to be unsafe, though. We don't need to make it widely available, and allow people to sickened, to discover that the general public probably shouldn't be consuming it. However, it seems that's the course some jurisdictions are taking. I'm reminded of the old saying, "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it."





JeffNY said:


> , buy from clean operations. Tour the farm, check the cows, investigate their feed. I bet you can figure out which is what. I know of a farm near here that sickened a couple of people, or so they say (nothing became of it, probably couldn't trace it back). I do know of people who don't like the taste of the milk. Again they feed a TMR..
> 
> Investigate your source, it will keep you safe. Look, the veggies and fruits in a store sicken millions, yet people dont complain and keep on buying. Yet i bet farmers markets you wont see that.
> 
> ...


What Jeff said... And raw milk is a world better for you than pasteurized milk - for all it's worth, they have to put stuff back in it to make it somewhat complete again - and it tastes horrid. Persons with huge raw milk opperations probably have a greater likelihood of becoming unclean. Our small dairy stays clean easier because we only milk 12 goats - roughly equivalent to 2 cows.


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## frank (Dec 16, 2008)

Ernies' right... It's about time to go milk lillybelle...


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Erm, what?


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I have come to realize that to some like Willow Girl, government is a religion. You just have to worship it and it will protect you from all perils. You've just got to believe!!!


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

watcher said:


> Yous pays your money and yous takes your chances. This guy just rolled snake eyes.
> 
> If you want to drink raw milk go for it. But make sure you have enough insurance to pay if something like this goes wrong so I'm not forced to pay for your problems.
> 
> If I am forced to pay, which it looks like its heading that way, they I think I have a right to demand you not take such chances and demand the banning of raw milk sales and to make consumption of raw milk illegal.


I love the fact that under your handle you have "free the oppressed" in latin, which is, of course the Army SF's motto.

Combine that knowledge and this post text and the irony is beyond compare.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I have come to realize that to some like Willow Girl, government is a religion. You just have to worship it and it will protect you from all perils. You've just got to believe!!!


Government (at least here in America) is just "us." It's the collective will or wisdom of the people, plus the corporations (who are people, too, apparently!) and their lobbyists. :shrugs:

Actually, I have mixed feelings on this issue. Do we need (or should we have) laws to protect people from their own foolishness? Should we ban raw milk sales and require motorcycle-riders to wear helmets? The do-gooder in me says "yes," while my more cynical side says we might as well allow the herd to be thinned! So, caveat emptor, eh?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> Government (at least here in America) is just "us." It's the collective will or wisdom of the people, plus the corporations (who are people, too, apparently!) and their lobbyists. :shrugs:
> 
> Actually, I have mixed feelings on this issue. Do we need (or should we have) laws to protect people from their own foolishness? Should we ban raw milk sales and require motorcycle-riders to wear helmets? The do-gooder in me says "yes," while my more cynical side says we might as well allow the herd to be thinned! So, caveat emptor, eh?


The government is not "US" as it stands right now. Its THEM. Its painfully obvious, when you consider how they are running things. They do not do things for the better interest of the people, its for their bottom line.


As far as laws, restrictions, etc. Not sure if your aware of this, but there is something in the FDA's own rules and laws that states they dont test for listeria in raw milk. Ag and markets and the like decided to do such thing. Not to mention, the majority of the time that something happens, they have a real hard time tracing it back to the farm.


Was like a farm in Mass that they found listeria in PASTEURIZED milk. They went through the plant and could not figure out where it would have come from. Remember, its was pasteurized.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Thought it would never happen.
JeffNY sees the need for traceback!!!!
With the listeria in a bulk tank and no way to traceback to the farm that the listeria came from. Could it be that someone is seeing how going to the source of a disease/bacteria/comtamination is a way to resolve the problem?

At least with a milk plant there are only a thousand farms to trace back. With TB found at a slaughter plant, you'd have to test the whole state. Happened in Michigan.

The milk plant knows what farms their milk comes from. There is no national system to traceback cattle.

The government isn't representing US? Oh, that's right, the government works for the fat cats, big business and factory farms. But this isn't about class envy.................


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> The government isn't representing US? Oh, that's right, the government works for the fat cats, big business and factory farms.


Actually, they do.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Thought it would never happen.
> JeffNY sees the need for traceback!!!!
> With the listeria in a bulk tank and no way to traceback to the farm that the listeria came from. Could it be that someone is seeing how going to the source of a disease/bacteria/comtamination is a way to resolve the problem?
> 
> ...



Wow, you do assume wayyyyy too much.. So someone has a milk bottle, they test it positive for listeria, they go back to the source and CANT find it, or where it came from.


Is that too hard for you to understand? your NAIS ploy aint gonna work, and even with NAIS the milk bottles aren't chipped, but maybe thats what you want.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Milk sold in stores can be traced back to the plant and batch. Those numbers are right next to the fresh date. Chipped? Heck no. Traceable, dern straight. 

Even in a worse case situation, the milk can be traced to the place of processing and only the hundred or so dairy farms would need to be tested. Even if the number exceeded a thousand, being able to know, right from the moment of detection, what farms contributed to the listeria or whatever.

Let's celebrate. Since the beginning of this thread, there haven't been any deaths connected directly to raw milk. Hee Hah. Maybe it is safe to drink commercially available raw milk.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Milk sold in stores can be traced back to the plant and batch. Those numbers are right next to the fresh date. Chipped? Heck no. Traceable, dern straight.
> 
> Even in a worse case situation, the milk can be traced to the place of processing and only the hundred or so dairy farms would need to be tested. Even if the number exceeded a thousand, being able to know, right from the moment of detection, what farms contributed to the listeria or whatever.
> 
> Let's celebrate. Since the beginning of this thread, there haven't been any deaths connected directly to raw milk. Hee Hah. Maybe it is safe to drink commercially available raw milk.


Again, and you seem to have a hard time understanding this part. They trace the milk back to the plant, then can't figure out HOW it got into the milk...

They act like they know what they are doing, but they can't figure things out like "where did it come from?" They simply do not know.

Not only that, if pasteurized milk was safe, how did listera get into pasteurized milk? Seems its not all that safe.

Not any deaths from raw milk, but at 300,000 a year.. That means at a rate of roughly 820 a day, appx 10,000 have died from government approved prescription drugs. Amusing that you have so much concern over lives.. NOT.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

So lets allow raw milk and ban prescription drugs? But I'm the one that doesn't get it.

If there were a case with listeria in "pasturized" milk, there would be several things that happen. The records of each batch of milk would be checked to insure that proper pasturization times and temperatures were done. Every herd that contributed to that plant's milk supply would be checked. "Where did it come from" would be the focus of the investigation. The range of the search would be limited to just those herds and that plant. It is possible that no source would be found, but there is an easy way to inspect everybody, every cow and every process involved. Records kept by the dairy industry allow for rapid traceback to the source. Not so in the commercial meat segment of our food chain.

Anybody heard how that poor fellow is recovering?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> [Not any deaths from raw milk, but at 300,000 a year.. That means at a rate of roughly 820 a day, appx 10,000 have died from government approved prescription drugs.


How many of those deaths were due to adulteration or contamination of those drugs? Because that's what we're talking about here. Otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> So lets allow raw milk and ban prescription drugs? But I'm the one that doesn't get it.
> 
> If there were a case with listeria in "pasturized" milk, there would be several things that happen. The records of each batch of milk would be checked to insure that proper pasturization times and temperatures were done. Every herd that contributed to that plant's milk supply would be checked. "Where did it come from" would be the focus of the investigation. The range of the search would be limited to just those herds and that plant. It is possible that no source would be found, but there is an easy way to inspect everybody, every cow and every process involved. Records kept by the dairy industry allow for rapid traceback to the source. Not so in the commercial meat segment of our food chain.
> 
> Anybody heard how that poor fellow is recovering?


Whoever said to "allow" raw milk? All I am asking is for some consistency in your arguments...


Speaking of which, why do you guys speak out against raw milk? Why not speak out against.


Raw meat.
Raw fruits.
Raw veggies.
Raw Eggs.
Raw Fish.

All of those things can be dangerous, veggies have caused people to become sick. Meat is sold, and there is nothing keeping people from eating it raw.. Same with fish.. Yet why are you guys so BENT on milk? Do you work for the government?


Jeff


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

No. I work in the dairy industry, and I don't want to see milk sales drop if customers lose confidence in our products thanks to disease outbreaks or questionable marketing tactics.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> No. I work in the dairy industry, and I don't want to see milk sales drop if customers lose confidence in our products thanks to disease outbreaks or questionable marketing tactics.


In about 10 years at the rate things are going. I would expect milk products not being from dairy cows, atleast most of them. There are far WORSE problems that we need to worry about, other than little ol' Raw milk..



The government needs to do something to HELP farms, but they sit idle and let them fade away. There is more to this that Raw Milk. I would hope you know that.



Jeff


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## rosehaven (Nov 5, 2004)

my thyroid drug was reformulated and the maker NEVER told until many of the people ( thousands ) taking the drug had horrible reactions. Hmmm, many of us are going for a class-action suit. please don't tell me drugs are regulated as I'm one who suffered for their actions. 

oh here's a post on Listeria in pasturized milk, go figure:

http://www.about-listeria.com/liste...arms-pasteurized-milk-listeria-outbreak-2007/

In God We Trust


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