# Pics of a Hermaphrodite



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

For those that have wondered but never seen one, here you go. This is Nutrageous, a Lamancha/Alpine doeling I was going to keep and ad to my milking herd. She also turns out to be a hermie.  In the second picture you can see the vulva of a normal doeling in the background for comparison.





























She is big, beautiful and sweet. She would make a nice "teaser"(heat detector) doe for someone who is going to try doing AI breeding, or a good brush eater. Anyone willing to give Nutrageous a good home?? 

I actually don't even care if you want to butcher her in a few months.....as long as its a quick merciful death. I will butcher her if no one wants her for a teaser or for meat. Since she is a hermie, she would be priced like a meat goat....$1.00 per lb. I'd have to weigh her to find out what she weighs. 

This is a 1st experience for me...and it had to be Nutrageous! :flame:


----------



## computerchick (Jun 24, 2005)

Oh, she's so beautiful - wonder if you can't find her a good pet/kid home??? Probably a good buck companion too Everyone needs a wether - of one form or another!!!

Andrea


----------



## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks for posting these pics. The difference I see is the larger than normal "bulb" like bump on her vulva and how it tips upward, rather than downward. It's pretty subtle, how did you figure this out?

Was she examined by a vet internally? I heard there is a short probe that is used to determine hermaphrodites in cows, it's advanced into the vaginal canal, and if the canal is "blind", the probe will only go in a certain distance if any.

How sad, she is beautiful! I hope she finds a home where she's useful (in one way or another ) .


----------



## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

Thank you for posting those pictures. I'd never seen a hermaphrodite, only read descriptions -- a picture is worth a thousand words. I'm sorry, though, that it was a doe you wanted to keep!

I take it that the condition wasn't really obvious at birth -- how long did it take to show up?

Kathleen


----------



## Marjorie Dickso (Jul 4, 2005)

Emily, were both parents polled?


----------



## trob1 (Jun 18, 2006)

Oh she sure is pretty. If only I were closer I would take her in a heartbeat.


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Idahoe said:


> It's pretty subtle, how did you figure this out?
> 
> Was she examined by a vet internally?


It wasn't noticable at birth and in fact it took a friend drawing attention to her odd looking rear one day for me to nitice. She was in with about 15 other doelings and at that age I don't normally stare at butts.  We noticed it when she was about two months old. The vet did check her today while she was out here preg-checking cows. She took one look at her and said we were right. She did a slight internal check to be sure. Yep.


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Marjorie Dickso said:


> Emily, were both parents polled?


Nope, neither one. Its just an anomally.


----------



## christij (Mar 5, 2006)

Ohh Emily I am sorry I know you didn't want it to be so! I hope all went well with the jersey calf.


----------



## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

This is why the internet is great. 

Since the parents weren't polled, could her sharing a uterine horn (as in cattle) have caused this? Theoretically, since you couldn't KNOW for sure 

Do you wonder if this is genetic, like a mutation in her line? Was her dam or sire bred before?

ETA: If you do end up keeping her and putting her in the freezer, what she's "got" in there would be interesting to see.


----------



## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

What a shame. I'd take her in a minute, she's adorable!


----------



## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Idahoe said:


> This is why the internet is great.
> 
> Since the parents weren't polled, could her sharing a uterine horn (as in cattle) have caused this? Theoretically, since you couldn't KNOW for sure
> 
> ...



Yes it would. She should have testes in her abdomen, right? Wouldn't that make her develop buckish characteristics?


----------



## TC (Jun 22, 2005)

I had one once, a few years ago, she was put in the freezer. Beautiful Boer, who looked and smelled just like a buck after a year, but had a complete looking vagina (and a somewhat complete birth canal ) with a testis sac hanging from underneath it. Wish I had pics. When we butchered her, there was no uterus. She was not polled, and neither were her parents.


----------



## suburbanite (Jul 27, 2006)

In humans, ambiguous genitalia is not genetic but the result of an abnormal hormonal environment in the mother during gestation.


----------



## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

It seems that she has the perfect name. Did you give it to her before, or after, you found out?


----------



## mwhit (Jun 8, 2006)

suburbanite said:


> In humans, ambiguous genitalia is not genetic but the result of an abnormal hormonal environment in the mother during gestation.


HUH? Where did you get that info? Abiguous genitalia can indeed be genetic-- there are dominant and recessive disorders that cause this and there are X linked types. Interestingly, something like 1 in every 1500 to 2000 people have intersex conditions.

Michelle


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

christij said:


> I hope all went well with the jersey calf.


Well....the calf hernia was too big to be fixed.... :Bawling: I knew we shouldn't have bought her....but I felt so sorry for her. Ah well, we will raise her to be about 6 months old and butcher her I guess.


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Idahoe said:


> Do you wonder if this is genetic, like a mutation in her line? Was her dam or sire bred before?
> 
> ETA: If you do end up keeping her and putting her in the freezer, what she's "got" in there would be interesting to see.


If I butcher, I will take internal pics.

Her sire and dam have produced multiple kids who are just fine. The dam has had three other sets of kids and the sire was used heavily and also has many kids. No problems there.


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

susieM said:


> It seems that she has the perfect name. Did you give it to her before, or after, you found out?


Right before....her mothers name is Nutty....


----------



## bumpus (Jul 30, 2003)

.
How do you know that she could not have kids.

Our are you just not wanting the blood line in your heard.
.


----------



## moosemaniac (Mar 7, 2003)

Bumpus, I sure wouldn't breed her. I'm sure it can be done. In fact, I know someone who bred one last fall and she kidded this spring, but I wouldn't add it to my herd. But, yeah, they do make good heat indicators. 

Ruth


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

bumpus said:


> .
> How do you know that she could not have kids.
> 
> Our are you just not wanting the blood line in your heard.
> .


Bumpus, she is a hermaphrodite. She has the underdeveloped sex organs of both a buck and a doe but can not do the job of either.

I was planning on keeping her as she is a very nice built little doeling out of a wonderful milker. But she can not concieve.


----------



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

moosemaniac said:


> Bumpus, I sure wouldn't breed her. I'm sure it can be done. In fact, I know someone who bred one last fall and she kidded this spring, but I wouldn't add it to my herd. But, yeah, they do make good heat indicators.
> 
> Ruth



Its very rare that they will concieve........the one I have heard of concieving was hormonally manipulated.....which I don't do.


----------



## moosemaniac (Mar 7, 2003)

Emily, I don't know how the owner did it. I do know I won't buy goats from her.

Ruth


----------



## suburbanite (Jul 27, 2006)

mwhit said:


> HUH? Where did you get that info? Abiguous genitalia can indeed be genetic-- there are dominant and recessive disorders that cause this and there are X linked types. Interestingly, something like 1 in every 1500 to 2000 people have intersex conditions.
> 
> Michelle



Fine, michelle, I should have said 'most' ambiguous genitalia.

There is a population in the Caribean somewhere that has ambiguous genitalia and then the penis grows on the males when they reach puberty. Apparently fertility isn't affected. Very wierd. And then you get folk with hereditary testosterone resistance who have the XY genome but a purely female external phenotype, except that they are infertile and have some internal abnormalitites.

A lot of the gender-bending genetic stuff affects fertility but not the visible sex organs. Disorders affecting the sex organs are more often hormonal than genetic; the genetic problems with visible manifestations affecting sex organs are much rarer.

In humans, anyway.

add: I googled this and found this article. I guess they have it in mental health because of the mental/emotional issues for parents and the kids themselves when ambiguous genitalia occur: http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0501/blshemale501.htm


----------



## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Guatemala, I believe. They call them "guavedoces".


----------



## suburbanite (Jul 27, 2006)

You should do some web searches on this, maybe use google scholar, find out if it is or is not genetic in goats. I suspect it is not. If it is not genetic, and if the goat is capable of kidding with assistance, then you might try it because the trait would not be passed on (so long as moms hormones are in balance during gestation) and then you could get your hermaphrodite to produce milk.


----------



## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

She very well could have kids, there is an old he/she in our area that has fathered many many kids. If she only carries the penis in her vulva, she could easily have fully developed ovaries and uterus to carry kids.

Everyone is getting freemartins and hemaphrodites confused. A free martin in goats is used for any doe who has incomplete female anatomy, and is blamed on a buck brother in the same horn of the uterus, when in fact we don't know if this is true. Because a freemartin should be an intact female with incorrect XY or incorrect hormones if tested. With bucky behavior and the only outward eveidence would be her smaller than normal teats for her age. 

Hemaphrodites are true intersex and can have any combination of genetaila...in fact Emilys doe could easily conceive and kid naturally yet have no mammary tissue to support a milk supply so may never milk. But also like Emily said she could also have only testicles up in side her, or have no vaginal tract, just a box that goes nowhere...we do a pencil test which you can do with your pinky finger or speculum for AI.

There are many other anomolies like Mozaic's which is two kids overlayed on each other, really two truly fuzed kids.

Cool cool photo Emily, since in most does you have to at least open the vulva to only feel the tiny penis not see it like this! Vicki


----------



## Farmer John (Jul 20, 2007)

Thank you all for this very informative thread.


----------



## oceanmist (Mar 21, 2006)

My sister got one in her herd a couple years ago and named it Herman!!  so funny!

Misty


----------

