# Before & after goats - brush land pics wanted!



## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

I am seriously thinking about getting goats to keep my 8 acres of heavy underbrush'ed wooded property clear and manageable. I really would like to see some before and after goats pics of the same area or after the goats were done with it - does anyone have any to share?

Will they eat only the leaves of the bushes and I still have to clear out the thicker treelings + bushy stumps by hand, or will they effectively destroy or eat down the entire bushes? How much damage can I expect to my adult trees? There are some huge pines, but mostly oaks, magnolia, dogwood and holly trees, lots of blueberry bushes, and blueberry lookalike trees [if blueberry bushes would come in trees]. And loads and loads of varieties of ground and tree climbing vines. Part of the property is near a year round creek and also has grass and weeds, the majority [about 5 acres] is heavily treed w/out grass due to probably being shaded out. With all that browse do I still need to offer hay and grain as additional feed, or will they be pretty much okay with browse? How much hay should I offer on the side?

I love this property because of the trees and do not want to loose my adult trees as we desire the shade [GA 90-100* in the summer], and I love goats [lots of exposure and bonding as a kid in my previous life, LOL]. In case of damage to adult trees - will a smaller goat breed such as pygmees or nigies do less damage due to lesser reach? At this time my goal in regards to goats would be mainly to clear the property so we can see what we actually have, LOL - as well as raising meat for the freezer.

Last question - I keep reading that goats are persnickety in regards to water - will they drink from a creek [year round, sandy bottom] or will I need to bring in additional water in tanks? 

Thanks - I'd really love to see some before and after photos, so I can get an idea of how much clearing they actually acomplish...


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## sunnygrl (Sep 27, 2006)

ok... i don't have any pictures of the space that goats have cleared off... how well they do it, and how fast they do it, lies entirely on how long you leave the goats in a certain area, and how many goats you have on that area.

They will eat the green off of pretty much everything in sight... you will still have the woody honeysuckle vines ( green ones were eaten) you will still have the woody parts of the wild roses, you will have tree limbs hanging down that have no leaves. Ours don't haven't bothered any adult trees except for the occasionally cedars which were eaten down where they could reach(again down to the tough woody parts). You will most likely still have grass grow in your pen ( if it is a large enough space) as they would rather eat other stuff than grass. They won't mow everything flat, but it is so much easier to go and cut that stuff down after all the green is gone.


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## sunnygrl (Sep 27, 2006)

lmnde said:


> With all that browse do I still need to offer hay and grain as additional feed, or will they be pretty much okay with browse? How much hay should I offer on the side?


I can definitely say you CAN COUNT ON having to provide other sources of feed and water, as what you will have available will not last very long at all.


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

I wish I would of thought about pictures. I had a friend ask if I would bring a few goats to her place to eat the weeds in some pens that she could not get the mower in. She thought I would need them to be there for a few weeks. I took 4 goats to her place and they had the weeds cleaned to the ground in 4 days. I do not know how big the area was, but it was like maybe 30 x 30 feet, then a long run that ran down the very large arena that they have and it is for running cattle down. I would say it is about the length of a football field or even longer.

I have attached a few news clips that are done on a lady that brings her Cashmere goats all around the places.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20070702/ai_n19360088

http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2007/08/13/featured_story/01top_08-13-07.txt

Just google her name Lani Malmberg. There are LOTS of articals on her and her goats. I just meet up with her a few weeks ago. A friend was giving her 100 more goats. Now Lani is up to over 3200 Cashmere goats.


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## bgraham (Jun 30, 2005)

Being in Southeast GA, I imagine most of your vegetation stays green year round. If that's the case, managed right, I don't think you will have to bring in anything as far as food. I don't know if they will drink from a creek or not. 


I don't have any pictures but we initially got 3 goats. A mother and her 2 babies (doeling and wether). We kept them in an area that was about an acre. There was a section of that, probably about 30 x 80 that was completely impenetrable. Wild overgrown blackberry vines, thorn bushes. It was like a jungle. Very, very thorny. We couldn't get into it at all. Within a year it was down to just some dead vines. Now it is like LAWN (except weeds instead of grass lol) and we can mow it. 

If you just want brush control, I would suggest getting 3 or 4 wethers (they won't need any grain) and rotating the areas you keep them in. Depending on what you want to invest in fencing you could divide it up into 2,3,4 whatever sections. Keep them in one section for a few weeks and then move them to another. That will give the vegetation in each area a chance to recover.

I have full sized goats (Nubians) and they don't kill mature trees but will destroy saplings in no time. They love poison ivy, blackberry bushes, honeysuckle and tree leaves. 

If your vegetation dies back in winter you may need to bring some hay in but I think where you are it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Beth


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Somebody did post before and after pictures a while ago and it was very impressive...I don't remember who. Boy, I'm a lot of help! I'll try to find it


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Minelson - I've seen some before and after pics here and there in the forum - but I'm greedy, LOL - I need to see more of them, to make sure this will work for me.

Bgraham - yes we pretty much stay green from Feb - Nov and sometimes later - and I know I will need to supplement during the winter months. I phrased my Q incorrectly - I actually meant now that everything is green and growing - will they require additional hay for correct rumen activity or to round out their diet in addition to minerals, or can they live off browse entirely? 

I bought this land about 18 months ago and I drive out to it nearly every day and see several goat herds on my way - from a single mom w. 2 kids on a weedy acre or so to entire 20-30 head herds on clean pasture or in pine plantations. I see that mom+kids group not being able to keep the small acreage down or even close to being over grazed [there is also a horse in there with them], so I am assuming they get hay in addition to this, as I don't think they get rotated out - they are there every time I drive by. The pasture and pine plantation lots look huge to me and my guess is the goats have the run in them all year round, as especially the planted pines look cleaned up and neat. 

My initial need is to clear the land, so I can actually plan for it - there is a lot of land on my 8 acres where I have not yet set foot on, because it's virtually inpenetrable and I am not about to fight bushes + vines and step on a rattler or copperhead while I'm trying to defend my virtue from the brush, LOL. Last year we cleared about 2 acres with a rented DR thingy [not the trimmer, the one that takes down underbrush and small saplings] - it was a lot of hard work and is other than the areas and paths we constantly use already back to anywhere from knee to almost hip high again. While that thing did cut and mulch the bushes, to me it simply seems that like with any pruning, the remains just got invigorated and took off with a vengeance again this year and is almost worse than before, as they now grow thicker together and the vines are at floor level instead of reaching up. With the goats rotated through, I'm not only hoping to open it up, but to also - once they rotated through several times, to grow a natural wildlife type pasture, that will eventually provide pasture for the goats, bunnies and a calf or two.

I also don't want to overstock or get too many goats - once cleared via temporary fencing, I plan for permanent 1/2 acre plots to rotate everybody [planned right now, but probably subject to change - calfs, goats, free ranging chicken, geese and potbelly pigs] through in a certain order for both intensive grazing, as well as to improve the soil quality. I'm not concerned about making money with this, rather than in supplementing healthy meat for the table and the dogs [I'm raw feeding or more correctly would like to get back to it when I can raise my own meat].

In consideration of this - how many goats would be about right for us, considering the acreage available? I was thinking about 7-10 adults with eventual babies [that would replace some of the adults or head to freezer camp]? Around here most everybody runs Kiko or Boers [or mixes], but I am also very partial to the smaller goats, which I think for a newbie would be easier to handle and manage? I'd love some more input and still hoping for before and after pics???


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## bgraham (Jun 30, 2005)

lmnde,

During the green months they will not need supplemental feeding.

Unless you have does that are pregnant or in milk and then I would feed them grain.

I think 7 - 10 would be fine for what you are wanting.

Beth


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

My goats drink out of my commercial fish ponds so I would expect yours to drink out of the stream unless there's something wrong with it.

Goats seem to trample down many times more than they actually eat.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

I've got another question for you guys - will goats cross a creek? 

One end of our acreage backs onto the creek - depending on the season and the amount of water in it, it has a steep 4-6' sand bluff and several inlets that reach into the property, that may [or at times may not] hold water. The creek when on low has a sandy bottom, that is partially exposed [little bit of a beach at low water]. At low water it may be as little as 12" deep with the creek only 3-4' wide, at high [with inlets full and overflowing] it can get as deep as 6-8' deep and 12-15' wide. I'm not planning on having the goats over on that side when the creek is full - however when in the lower stages, will they get into it [they will have to jump at least 4' down onto the sand bar] and posibly cross over?


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Imnde, if you are south of the Altamaha River you might have lots of palmetto and north you might have lots of gall berries. Your new goats wonât help you with those. However almost everything else is fair game. Iâll wager that your land will be cleaned within a year with seven or more goats on eight acres. Theyâll do it cleaner than with your bushhog. All pine saplings will be stripped, all low hanging oaks, willows, Cyprus, holly etc. cleaned up to about five feet. They will not damage the trunks of your large trees. But all two-inch dia. sweetgums, fruiting trees and bushes, mimosa and vine types will be stripped of bark, leaves and small branches. They love our bramble vines; LOVE âUM! Theyâll make trails for you. Smile. I understand that choke cherry (wild black cherry) wilted leaves are poisonous. They eat the leaves green without problem but blown down limbs could be a problem (Iâm told). We do have lots of choke cherry trees. All parts of China Berry trees are also on the no-no list, but my goats never had a problem and they do eat the leaves and the bark. Small portions. 

You will need a shelter and mineral supplements, as we are copper shy here. I know because my goats were different animals after four weeks on free-choice loose minerals. Thanks to this forum I found that out AND lots more. I canât find anyone to teach me to copper bolus yet. Most goatherders in S. Ga. donât know what copper deficiencies look like. Nor do they know what CL caseous lymphadenitis is.

A lot of Boer herds have CL. I see it all the time at the animal auction in Baxley and herds that I pass on the highway. Whichever goat you choose, be careful not to buy disease with your animals. A breed that you might want to consider is Kinder. (I canât believe I didnât say LaMancha! AND there are some for sale in Forsyth) Kinder are good at milk and meat. If you want freezer or dog food, they are meaty, resilient and do well in our heat. For a little history, Iâm a hardnose; love deer meat and other wild game. No problem killing, dressing, and eating. However, after a year, I sold my five Boer crosses to the neighbor who gave me visiting rights â BECAUSE I couldnât bring myself to consider killing, let alone eating one of them. They are livestock. Yes, they are livestock. Yes. Well, I switched to milk goats that are more a pet than a goat. Regarding your question of small vs. mid or large breed, I donât think larger breeds would do more damage, but they do eat more. They also provide more milk and meat.

One other thought, in low areas there are snails that carry liver flukes. If you donât live on this land, youâll need protection from predators. Coyotes have invaded us over the past few years. Neighborsâ dogs are worse! When you say temporary fencing do you envision electric fence or hogwire on metal t-post?

I wish I had made before and after pix! My goats did a great job on the wild rose, wisteria and brambles. They donât like the pasture area as much. My mentor uses goats to keep the undergrowth from his planted pines. My goats have never tried to cross the little creek â they really donât like water except in the water trough. Good luck in your quest. I hope that you enjoy your new goats as much as I enjoy mine. 
Paul


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## DATAOFWORD (Sep 18, 2007)

Try our web site for some before and after clean-up.

www.twinhillsranch.com


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

DATAOFWORD said:


> Try our web site for some before and after clean-up.
> 
> www.twinhillsranch.com


Wow Awesome looking goats you have! I'm curious, what is the red long thing in the after picture??


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

This doesn't appear to be true with all Boers but my buckling and a friend of mines herd prefer grass to browse. They eat the grass and leave all but the small tender newly growing shrubs/trees.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Thank you all for sharing the links to your websites and photos.

Paul - I'm not too far from you - I'm outside of Reidsville, close by the river. Since you live in this general area too - can I pick your brains, when needed ;o)? Thanks for the reminder about copper insufficiency here - I was going to ask at our Feed store to see what I needed to do about that.



















This is what our place looked like last year Feb - before things greened up and after a drought. It was thick in some places, but still pretty much manageable. This year, after having a wet spring and now almost daily rains, it is an impenetrable jungle and there is no way to get through to figure out what I have in trees I want to keep, open areas suitable for future gardens or an orchard, or even where I want the house to go to, LOL. And I really see no point in spending a fortune in getting someone in, to clear by machine and damage the trees in the process, just to have everything grow over again next year. Never mind the fact that the clearing quotes from last year where between $1500-2000/acre - I'm sure with todays gas prices that has went up as well...










I've got a Q in regards to the photo above - towards the left and in the right hand back, there are pale greyish type of "lichen" or dry moss piles - they appear to actually grow on the ground, and I have several areas where the entire ground is covered in them. They are not the rich dark green moss that I associate with moss, they are dry, crackly - if anything similar in texture to bunched up Spanish Moss, but grow in round piles, sizes vary from small 2" up to a large hand size. To compare the looks - it almost looks like some ocean underwater growth, but on dry land... I do not know what they are called - are they harmful for goats, or will they eat them or ignore them? This stuff grows mostly on dry sandy areas, and as I said I think it actually grows on the ground, not on trees [at least I didn't see any on the trees].

In regards to runs or pens - I plan for 2-3 permanent pens with shelter [field fencing] about 40x40 with additional moveable runs [electric net] attached to them. That way I can get the immediate surrounding areas cleared and then build a new permanent pen further out and use the first for getting the pigs in and later a garden started. I'm still working on the predator issue - there are loose dogs around, and so far my big guys have run them off and kept them from messing with what's there already. I've been giving some serious thought about a lifestock guardian - I'm just not sure if I want a dog for that [that may run interference with our other dogs or vice versa] or a donkey. In any way - the fencing + sub fencing comes first - I am all tooo familiar with getting the critters first, and then working on a place to keep them, and am not planning on making that mistake with the goats, LOL.

I do think the butchering part may be a problem for me too, especially with the smaller breeds [I had a lot of exposure to pygmies as a kid and am a sucker for them] - but I have figured out how to do chicken and bunnies, I can do goats too [I think, LOL]. Tough cookie here...


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## Rowdy (Jul 9, 2004)

________________________________________________


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

THOSE are the pictures I was thinking of! Thanks Rowdy...like I said, very impressive


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## Rowdy (Jul 9, 2004)

Minelson said:


> THOSE are the pictures I was thinking of! Thanks Rowdy...like I said, very impressive


Thanks. I was wanting to post a few more, but I've not uploaded them yet. Perhaps tonight.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Cool - I am really looking forward to this - thanks for sharing...


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## Rowdy (Jul 9, 2004)

Okay, here are some photos from today. Here is the set up, I've crossed fenced the back portion of my property into four paddocks that are all more or less one acre. I rotate the goats through the paddocks, and once I remove them from a paddock I use my shredder to cut anything they did not eat, and to remove a little more of the woody stuff.

This is a photo of the land behind me, across the fence from paddock #4. That land has never had goats on it, and looks exactly like mine did before I started with the goats:











Now here is paddock #4 today after letting the goats graze it for a month or so (need to check my records to see when I moved them in.) This is my newest paddock, so I've not had a chance to plant any pasture in it yet, though I did put a few pounds on millet in it early spring:











Below is the east side of paddock #4 at the end of May, first of June. You can see my little stand of millet. The goats liked it okay, but I'll probably stick to haygrazer in the future, if I do not sow this paddock into bermuda.










Same paddock today. I've not had any real rain since the first part of June. I let the goats graze the millet to the ground as that I will be planting a little wheat in here during the end of August.











West side of paddock #4 the first week of March. This was the first season this paddock had been fenced. Once all of the winter grazing in the other paddocks was gone the goats spent the balance of the winter here on hay.











This is a shot of the same area from a different angle today. This is after a hard grazing this spring, and shredding, and now another hard grazing. Sometime this month I will shred it again before planting wheat for the winter.


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## Rowdy (Jul 9, 2004)

The following moves a little away from the actual clearing of brush, but shows some of the after:


Here the east side of paddock #2. It has worked out that most the the paddocks are more open on the east side. This was my little wheat patch (well actually a mix between wheat, tritcale, oats and barley I think) the first week of march. It had been grazed a couple of times. 









Here is the same paddock a month later just before I turned the goats into the wheat one last time before sowing haygrazer into this paddock









This is my little haygrazer patch at the first part of june. I grazed it a couple of times this year. The goats were moved into it again today to graze what is left to the ground to get it ready for the wheat that will be planted at the end of August.









This is a panoramic(sp) shot of the west side of paddock #2 the first part of May.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Rowdy - this is exactly what I was looking for - thank you so much for sharing. When you plant your cleared lots, do you go the traditional routine of plowing, disking etc before planting or are you basically just throwing the seed out to see what happens? In case of the second - are you happy with the results?

Also I see that you have pretty sandy soil there - do you see some improvement to the quality or in other words - is there more growing now that your goats have been back and forth a few times?

Last Q - how many goats do you have on your 1 acre runs and how long average does it feed them. Do you hay and grain them as well, or only browse?

Thanks for sharing. Lmnde


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## Rowdy (Jul 9, 2004)

lmnde said:


> When you plant your cleared lots, do you go the traditional routine of plowing, disking etc before planting or are you basically just throwing the seed out to see what happens? In case of the second - are you happy with the results?


I've done it several different ways. Usually I'll take my landscape rake (think yard rake made for a tractor) and remove every other tine on it. Since I have sand that set up will scratch the ground pretty good. I do not own a grain drill, or a broadcast spreader so I use a yard spreader I got at a garge sale for $10. If I were doing more than half an acre at an time I'd probably upgrade to something better. The spreader looks like this:









and my landscape rake attached to the old tractor looks like this:










Once I've spread the seed I'll either very lightly rake it again, or just roll it to increase the seed's contact to the ground. Sadly I do not own a roller or a cultipacker, so I've had to just use the wheels on the tractor. Slow work.

I've I've gotten lucky and if it looks like rain, then I'll let the rain do the packing for me.

I have tried just spreading some seed and letting nature take its course, but it seemed to take longer to germinate and the stand was a bit spotty. If I were to go this route in the future I think I would at least try to drag a section of chainlink fence or something like that over the seed to help increase the contact with the soil.



> Also I see that you have pretty sandy soil there - do you see some improvement to the quality or in other words - is there more growing now that your goats have been back and forth a few times?


Yeah, sand is pretty much all that I have, and it is pretty poor as far as dirt goes. When I first started there was not much growing other than oak trees, greenbriar vines and a few other brushy plants. Other that the open areas in the east side of each paddock I've tried to leave a tree every six to ten feet.

I've not done a soil test in each of the paddocks in quite awhile (I really need to) but using a shovel in the paddocks that have grass growing in them, I can see a dramatic increase organic matter. There is now a layer of darker soil (humus) that was only white sand when I began; so it looks like I'm not messing things up too terribly yet.

As for the amount of graze/browse to eat... That is a tricky question, as that the amount changes as I work with the paddock. When I first fence off a paddock they have tons to eat from the trees and other brush, but little in the way of grassy like things. Goats like to browse, so that is okay with them, but when after they eat all they can reach I go in and shred the small stuff and clear out a few trees each time. That equals less to eat the next time, so I have to move them a little sooner the next time they are in that paddock. But, once I get enough cleared I start sowing stuff in it. Most of my paddocks have a little stand of Bermuda (whichs gets bigger each year) and a native grass mix. As that stuff grows it ends up being more for them to eat than when I started.

So far I have only one paddock that is close to being finished and it is mostly in a native grass mix along with some bermuda. I cleared a few too many trees in this paddock though, so there is more grazing than browse. The goat do not really like that idea, but it goes a little farther. I also think I'm going to move away from the native grass mix. The goats do not seem to like it quite as much, and the seed is too fluffy to feeder through the seeder, so I have to broadcast it by hand. 
Here is paddock #1 after the goats ate it down and I cleared (too much of) it. December 2005









Same paddock April 2007 after I planted a sandy land native mix:









August of 2007, after I made the mistake of letting the paddock grow too much. I though the goats would like it better with all of the interesting seed heads and such, but it was not the case at all.

















Here is a photo of part of that grassy paddock after they have grazed it and I've mowed whatever they did not get. I need some rain. The sandy land mix is in decline, but the bermuda is creeping in.












> Last Q - how many goats do you have on your 1 acre runs and how long average does it feed them. Do you hay and grain them as well, or only browse?


The number of goats I carry has changed over the last couple of years. Right now I have only four adult does and six kids, ranging from two months to five months in age.

A virgin acre here will last six goats a little over a month here during the warm months, with that time decreasing each time I run them through it until I start to get a good stand of grass. From around late April to now this year I could have had about four times the number of goats and not had a problem feeding them. I had to mow several times in the grass paddock to keep the grass from getting too far ahead of the goats while they were in the haygrazer paddock. I really wish I had a way to make hay sometimes. Oh well, the mowed grass just adds to my soild building. 

My goats do not get any grain or hay during the warm months, except what little grain I might use a lure, or during the very last part of their pregnancy and the first part of their nursing. This year I took them off feed even during the first part of the nursing, as that even after a month after kidding they still looked pregnant! I adjust my feeding based on the condition of the animals.

My goal is to end up with year round grazing. I did not start feeding hay until December last year, but I only had one little plot of wheat in a paddock, as that the rye grass and clover I broadcast in another paddock did not make a stand until very late in the winter/early spring. This year I'm planting more wheat, and I'm going to try to get the rye grass into the ground a bit sooner. 

I had wanted to haul some manure into the paddocks this summer before sowing the winter plots, but with the price of diesel I just couldn't make the numbers work. I may haul in a couple of trailer loads anyway just to compare the results, though I'm running out of time on that.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Again - I want to thank you for taking the time to share all your great pics + info, as well as answering my questions so patiently - this was exactly what I was hoping for when I started the thread, I am so tickled. I definitely see goats in our very near future, after we get the first runs fenced in... 

BTW - I am extremely impressed with how your land changed within only 2-3 years. It gives me enormous hope that I can do something similar with our partially very sandy property. Thanks again for taking the time to explain and show!!!


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## MB (Apr 20, 2007)

Did anyone answer your creek question? I didn't read all of the posts. Anyway - mine will cross creeks but I started hiking back and forth across when they were babies and they eventually got used to it. I do have one that gets very concerned and does a crazy flying leap every time. The biggest problem with creeks is fencing.


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## DATAOFWORD (Sep 18, 2007)

Wow Awesome looking goats you have! I'm curious, what is the red long thing in the after picture?? 
__________________
Teach only Love...for that is what You are 

It is a road sweep brush. Road building contractors will give them to you for free. The goats love them to rub themselves.


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