# Food availability



## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

In Germany they shut down coal and other established energy production. As well as much of Europe.

in the past year the windmills generated far less electricity than they had the year before. Wind is fickle.

so.... now they are burning up their limited supply of natural gas.

this has increased the cost of energy, heating, and all such.

a side effect many don’t see right away is the effect on the global food supply.

nitrogen fertilizer comes from natural gas.

many places have quit making fertilizer. Others are charging 3x the price it was a year ago.

grass based crops use lots of nitrogen. Corn, wheat, oats, barley, and so on.

many of those crops get converted into milk and meat after thry are harvested.

so..... if we can’t get a good crop growing in 2022, we won’t have grain to feed critters in 2023, and will be short on food in 2024. Around the globe.

we do have time to sort this out, if we look at it now. That is the great thing about our food supplies, they have a lot of time lag and redundancy in them, we are given time to absorb supply issues.

unfortunately the masses sit on front of social media and politically controlled news sources and are not seeing this news.

it won’t be presented to the masses untilthe end of 2023 when it is a crisis and will be too late to deal with.

it will be presented as rich farmers charging too much, and someone elevens fault, and so on....

the food shortages of 2024 will be directly the result of some bad energy policies from 2020.

paul









Nitrogen fertilizer shortage threatens to cut global crop yields -CF Industries


A shortage of nitrogen fertilizer due to soaring natural gas prices is threatening to reduce global crop yields next year, CF Industries, a major producer of the crop nutrient, said on Thursday.




www.reuters.com


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I don't understand why the price is soaring. We have trillions is gallons in reserve within 100 miles radius of me. It's not the largest reserve that we have by a long shot either. They drilled it twenty years ago. Just turn on the spigot.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

People are going to have to find ways to make their own foods, or get used to the flavor of Soylent Green.

Grateful for my beasties who produce plenty of natural fertilizer.

Better plan to break up some more sod...


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> I don't understand why the price is soaring. We have trillions is gallons in reserve within 100 miles radius of me. It's not the largest reserve that we have by a long shot either. They drilled it twenty years ago. Just turn on the spigot.


DH just told me that TPTB are selling off natural gas supplies.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Wonder how many know what Soylent Green is?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

This is being done on purpose… TPTB want to depopulate the earth… of course they’ll still be eating steak and lobster 🦞.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The cost of money is just one of a slew of other rising costs that farmers will confront in 2022, Semple said. In the past year, cash rents and input prices have already gone up, he said.

"It's going to cost $100 to $150 an acre more to plant an acre of corn in 2022 than it did in 2021," he said. "Farmers are paying $1,300 to $1,400 a ton for anhydrous ammonia. Seed prices are going to be up somewhere between 5% and 10% from last year. Chemical costs are going to be more expensive. If farmers are purchasing equipment, equipment prices are much higher today than they were 12 months ago."

Supplies are not the only thing going up.

"All of the inputs into a farm operation are up considerably for 2022 versus 2021, yet the 2022 income is still undetermined," Semple said. 









Indicators point to corrections ahead for the 2022 farm economy


Farm Credit has been telling farmers to lock in their interest rates and think twice about adding debt.




justthenews.com


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> This is being done on purpose… TPTB want to depopulate the earth… of course they’ll still be eating steak and lobster 🦞.


Malthus’s principle of population is basically the law of supply and demand applied to the relationships between food production and population growth, which he makes clear time and again throughout the Essay. As the food supply increases, food becomes cheaper, and more children are brought into the world. 






What are the basic principles of Malthus theory?


What are the basic principles of Malthus theory? Thomas Robert Malthus, an English cleric, and scholar, published this theory in his 1798 writings, An Essay on the Principle of Population. Malthus believed that through preventative checks and positive checks, the population would be controlled...




colors-newyork.com


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We have them all


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


>


If I cannot trust climate change models (and I do not) why would I trust a model of the future of mankind?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

One single factor could lower food production to the point where many in the world would starve. The cost and availability of fertilizer.

On a positive note - I recently read that a person can live a healthy life on a diet of nothing but potatoes and milk.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I love potatoes.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> If I cannot trust climate change models (and I do not) why would I trust a model of the future of mankind?


I don't know why you would either. Chew then spit or swallow.
I got the spoilers for the end of the world a long time ago.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

I have the answer to the impending food crisis… at least for my family. 
“Grow your own”


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Malthus assumed that people could or would not choose to have fewer children than nature sent them. And in first-world countries people choose the number of kids they will have all of the time


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I have the answer to the impending food crisis… at least for my family.
> “Grow your own”


Taters, maters, beans, and corn…. No problem…, nanner, coffee, chocolate, and spices? Not so much.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> One single factor could lower food production to the point where many in the world would starve. The cost and availability of fertilizer.
> 
> On a positive note - I recently read that a person can live a healthy life on a diet of nothing but potatoes and milk.


Raw milk is the perfect food.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Elevenpoint said:


> Raw milk is the perfect food.


For babies and calves.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Evons hubby said:


> For babies and calves.


No adults also.
No more of a complete food on the planet.
Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and much more.
Nothing comes close to raw fresh milk.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Spoiler alert _Soylent Green_


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Elevenpoint said:


> No adults also.
> No more of a complete food on the planet.
> Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and much more.
> Nothing comes close to raw fresh milk.


Not saying milk isn’t a good all around food… but I don’t think I’d care for just milk as a diet.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Elevenpoint said:


> No adults also.
> No more of a complete food on the planet.
> Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and much more.
> Nothing comes close to raw fresh milk.


Nothing green in it, though


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I haven't picked up oats for a few weeks, and we're just about out, so stopped at a "trendy/spendy" feed store on the way back from Real City today, to pick up enough oats to hold the goats until the weekend.

They're usually a little more expensive than the local stores, but the ADM oats were *$10 higher* than my local feed shop. The clerk said that ADM has been raising their prices big time (actually, she said, "Gouging the F out of them"), to the point where they are going to stop ordering that brand entirely.

Going to call the local seed-n-feed tomorrow to see if their prices have gone up so quickly.

Looking to plan space for oats this Spring.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I'm glad I have only 3 rabbits to feed oats to. The wild ones eat corn as readily as they eat oats. Menard's had old fashioned rolled oats, 5 pound box for $2. That will get my domestic rabbits through the winter.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> I'm glad I have only 3 rabbits to feed oats to. The wild ones eat corn as readily as they eat oats. Menard's had old fashioned rolled oats, 5 pound box for $2. That will get my domestic rabbits through the winter.


Stock up on them, though. They may be relatively cheap now, but come next year, all bets are off.

I have a friend who started her oat seed in the Fall. I planned to get mine going after we harvest the wheat, but now... There's a spot in the former buck paddock that is well-fertilized. Not sure if I should start now, or wait until late Winter/early Spring. 

Better pull out Gene Logsden's book again.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

rambler said:


> In Germany they shut down coal and other established energy production. As well as much of Europe.
> 
> in the past year the windmills generated far less electricity than they had the year before. Wind is fickle.
> 
> ...


Excellent post/topic.

Knowing a little about population math/foodproduction/energy issues, I was about to go full panic starting about 1980.... It's said that industrial ag is the process of turning petroleum into food. It's an energy dependent enterprise-- everything from the obvious need for fuel for tractors & transportartion, but also for fertilizer & chemical production.

In 1980, world petroleum reserves were estimated to be only adequate for 50 -100 yrs of demand....But then about 20 y/a, Fracking was developed to save the day. Reserves should now last a couple centuries....How far into the futrue are we obligated to worry? Our great grand childrens' great grandchildren will have to figure out what to do then.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> I don't understand why the price is soaring. We have trillions is gallons in reserve within 100 miles radius of me. It's not the largest reserve that we have by a long shot either. They drilled it twenty years ago. Just turn on the spigot.


Price depends not on how much is in the ground, but on how much is being pumped from refinery to consumer. That's why prices go up right after a hurricane for awhile until the refineries forced to temporarily close get back on line.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pony said:


> Grateful for my beasties who produce plenty of natural fertilizer.


No, they just return the N to the soil that they don't retain. Net loss of N. If you're feeding hay, for instance, you're just transferring the N from the hay field to wherever the manure winds up.

To maintain the current 180bu/ac yield of corn (up from 150 just 5 y/a) we MUST resort to artificially produced N fertilizers.

We homesteaders, OTOH, not obligated to feed the world (Noah didn't try to save everybody) can get by using the traditional methods.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Malthus’s principle of population is basically the law of supply and demand applied to the relationships between food production and population growth, which he makes clear time and again throughout the Essay. As the food supply increases, food becomes cheaper, and more children are brought into the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem is, Malthus was wrong.

Populations grow logarithmically only when first starting out. They actually grow logistically- first logarithmically until they reach an inflection point, then they slow down as an upside down mirror image of the first half to approach a steady state at the carryng capacity....At the at point the birth rate equals the deathr ate and the population stays stable UNLESS one or more of the factors that determines carrying capacity changes...Eg- The Plague and global cooling caused a huge die-off 1000y/a, and Borlaug's Green Revolution ~1970 allowed a huge, sudden increase. Look up "Logisitic Equation."


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Elevenpoint said:


> Raw milk is the perfect food.


Pastueirzed milk comes closer-- no risk of infection. Milk is awfully good, but doesn't supply all needed nutrients in high enough quantity--no Vit C, for instance.

And, it's been shown that 90% of Chinese have lactose intolerance. Africans aren't much lower than that.


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## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

I believe that about 1/3 of Americans have diabetes. Milk is a no no for diabetics.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> Pastueirzed milk comes closer-- no risk of infection. Milk is awfully good, but doesn't supply all needed nutrients in high enough quantity--no Vit C, for instance.
> 
> And, it's been shown that 90% of Chinese have lactose intolerance. Africans aren't much lower than that.


Pasteurization is a method for covering unsanitary conditions.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't know if milk collection could ever be done in completely sanitary conditions. The spigots are right next to the exhaust port.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Danaus29 said:


> I don't know if milk collection could ever be done in completely sanitary conditions. The spigots are right next to the exhaust port.


And in the winter they love to lay the spigots right in a steamy pile. 
.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And sometimes tugging the spigots would cause a steaming pile to drop. 
More than once my grandpa got smacked with a tail full of caked on exhaust. I wanted him to teach me how to milk a cow but he said buying it from the store was easier.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Ok so I just started canning again. At 51 I realized I have a bit of a steeper learning curve than the younger folks. I grew up with canned goods and home raised meat and eggs.
It is amazing tome how many people forgot that we lived for a long time without government involvement in our food. I had a friend ask me about canning and asked if it was safe. He was shocked to hear just how little was in the jars and how long they last. Do we need big brother telling us how to eat and what to do with our milk? IF so then they can start with all the processed fast food crap and junk in the stores. THEN and only then will I trust what they have to say about my food!!!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

54metalman said:


> Ok so I just started canning again. At 51 I realized I have a bit of a steeper learning curve than the younger folks. I grew up with canned goods and home raised meat and eggs.
> It is amazing tome how many people forgot that we lived for a long time without government involvement in our food. I had a friend ask me about canning and asked if it was safe. He was shocked to hear just how little was in the jars and how long they last. Do we need big brother telling us how to eat and what to do with our milk? IF so then they can start with all the processed fast food crap and junk in the stores. THEN and only then will I trust what they have to say about my food!!!


Food poisoning is just as real today as it was 100 years ago. Just not as common.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I could say that most drive thrus and refrigerated sections of grocery stores are marketing food poison.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> I could say that most drive thrus and refrigerated sections of grocery stores are marketing food poison.


I’ve not heard about many dying from a Big Mac or burrito.


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Evons hubby said:


> I’ve not heard about many dying from a Big Mac or burrito.


Not directly like you are saying. But look at heart issues and and obesity. Then many many more are dropping from the Big Mac than are being reported. 

Bring back common sense and get big brother out of the pic and we could do alright. Dont need someone to tell me how to wipe my backside.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is a death of a thousand driveups.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Having worked in restaurants, both fast food and "regular," I'm amazed at how little disease is spread by them...I also worked at Cook County Hosp in Chicago back in the day when there was still a real Skid Row. I was amazed at how healthy one could be although drinking nothing but cheap, fortified wine in mass quantities and eating just the scraps retrieved by dumpster diving.

Check the stats-- only about 2000 deaths are reported annually in this country due to food borne illness. OTOH- "food poisoning"- really Staph toxin related illness-- occurrs in the millions of cases and is almost always due to poor handling at home in the kitchen-- usually eating improperly stored left-overs.

I mentioned Pasteurization, not becaue FRESH raw milk is bad, but every minute after milking, the bugs that are inevitably present are multiplying and before too long, can become a problem.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

54metalman said:


> Not directly like you are saying. But look at heart issues and and obesity. Then many many more are dropping from the Big Mac than are being reported.
> 
> Bring back common sense and get big brother out of the pic and we could do alright. Dont need someone to tell me how to wipe my backside.


You might if the sphincter virus escapes the Uraguay lab and infects us all.
Then the scientists at Charmin can advise the government to lock us all down and mandate us to use only $800 government paid for cassette toilets sold and distributed by Proctor & Gamble and special anti sphincter worm toilet tissue with the new experimental BM ointment vaccine.
You thought the Q Tip swab into your nose was invasive?
Try finding stretch pants to fit over three diapers and still keep your bum looking tight.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> You might if the sphincter virus escapes the Uraguay lab and infects us all.
> Then the scientists at Charmin can advise the government to lock us all down and mandate us to use only $800 government paid for cassette toilets sold and distributed by Proctor & Gamble and special anti sphincter worm toilet tissue with the new experimental BM ointment vaccine.
> You thought the Q Tip swab into your nose was invasive?
> Try finding stretch pants to fit over three diapers and still keep your bum looking tight.


Very funny, but you DO need counseling...and Soon.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Evons hubby said:


> I’ve not heard about many dying from a Big Mac or burrito.


One won't get you but repeated indulgence to the point of overconsumption will get you eventually.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

coolrunnin said:


> And in the winter they love to lay the spigots right in a steamy pile.
> .


I'm so glad that my goats would rather die than lay in mess. 

I've helped milk cows at a friend's dairy. They are very careful about how those udders are cleaned when they're in the parlor. Have yet to see a pile in the parlor, but maybe that was just a matter of timing.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

54metalman said:


> Ok so I just started canning again. At 51 I realized I have a bit of a steeper learning curve than the younger folks. I grew up with canned goods and home raised meat and eggs.
> It is amazing tome how many people forgot that we lived for a long time without government involvement in our food. I had a friend ask me about canning and asked if it was safe. He was shocked to hear just how little was in the jars and how long they last. Do we need big brother telling us how to eat and what to do with our milk? IF so then they can start with all the processed fast food crap and junk in the stores. THEN and only then will I trust what they have to say about my food!!!


If you have canning questions, please go start threads in the "preservation" forum.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> *Having worked in restaurants, both fast food and "regular," I'm amazed at how little disease is spread by them...I also worked at Cook County Hosp in Chicago* back in the day when there was still a real Skid Row. I was amazed at how healthy one could be although drinking nothing but cheap, fortified wine in mass quantities and eating just the scraps retrieved by dumpster diving.
> 
> Check the stats-- only about 2000 deaths are reported annually in this country due to food borne illness. OTOH- "food poisoning"- really Staph toxin related illness-- occurrs in the millions of cases and is almost always due to poor handling at home in the kitchen-- usually eating improperly stored left-overs.
> 
> I mentioned Pasteurization, not because FRESH raw milk is bad, but every minute after milking, the bugs that are inevitably present are multiplying and before too long, can become a problem.


LOL at comparing restaurant/fast "food" with CCH. Assembly line production at its best?

Had a friend who interned at County ER. She's an adrenaline junkie, though. After she had kids, she went to a wellness format in her practice. Slowing down, she is. 

And I understand about the pasteurization. Properly handled, milk is safe. But I think that proper handling includes not shipping it all over the place. 

And this brings us back to our original post: The availability of food.

Perhaps food was not meant to be mass-produced on mega-farms. Perhaps it was always meant to be as local as possible, and people were supposed to have a much more active role in the acquisition/preparation of their daily bread. 

One need only look to the destruction wrought by Big Ag during the Dust Bowl years to realize that it just isn't good husbandry to tear up things on such an enormous scale.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Pony said:


> Perhaps food was not meant to be mass-produced on mega-farms. Perhaps it was always meant to be as local as possible, and people were supposed to have a much more active role in the acquisition/preparation of their daily bread.


yep, hunting and foraging worked well for thousands of years.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Elevenpoint said:


> No adults also.
> No more of a complete food on the planet.
> Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and much more.
> Nothing comes close to raw fresh milk.


The reason that so many are lactose-intolerant is because cow milk IS NOT human food.

Our government has spent Billions of dollars for decades to convince the masses that cow milk has somehow good for humans. That was propaganda.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> The reason that so many are lactose-intolerant is because cow milk IS NOT human food.
> 
> Our government has spent Billions of dollars for decades to convince the masses that cow milk has somehow good for humans. That was propaganda.


I kinda like some of the cheese and ice cream.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pony said:


> LOL at comparing restaurant/fast "food" with CCH. ....
> 
> One need only look to the destruction wrought by Big Ag during the Dust Bowl years to realize that it just isn't good husbandry to tear up things on such an enormous scale.


I wasn't comparing restaurants and the food at CCH....It was the patients at CCH-- mostly indigent; many what would today be called "homeless" who drank heavily and ate what ever they could scrounge out of dumpsters.

There was no "Big Ag" in the 30s, unless you consider tha large farms as seen in the movie _Of Mice & Men_. The dust bowl was the result of the combination of the hottest, driest decade on record (if you don;t count the decades in which NOAA arbitrarily added 2deg to all the data points) and the govt encouraging farmers to grow wheat on wheat, year after year. Don't forget almost all farming was done with horses & mules in those days. The only mechanization was the steam thresher.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Evons hubby said:


> yep, hunting and foraging worked well for thousands of years.


It takes 2sq mi per person to survive by hunting/gathering. 7.5Billion people now x 2 = 15 billion sq miles. Our plant's total surface area, counting oceans, is 197 million sq mi. I don't think that'll work.

The problem is, we've painted ourselves into a corner with industrial ag allowing the pop to grow so much. Now it's like swimming aganst the current. If you relax for even a second, the current will sweep you away.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> The reason that so many are lactose-intolerant is because cow milk IS NOT human food.
> 
> Our government has spent Billions of dollars for decades to convince the masses that cow milk has somehow good for humans. That was propaganda.


You're right. The genes that allow one to continue making lactase into adulthood are the mutants. But those who do have those genes have also changed their genetics so they can;t maintain good calcium levels on foods other than dairy products....

...Blacks often have lactose intolerance and have Vit D levels that would considered low for Whites, yet rarely get osteoporosis....Whites, OTOH, don't very often have lactose intolerance, but, because most adults don't take in enough dairy products, often have osteoporosis as they age....Once you're old (40+) it's too late to start worrying about taking extra Ca....If you don;t have lac intol, then you probably MUST take more dairy. If you do have it, you may or may not need it....There is NO *good* source of Ca except dairy.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Interesting. I have wondered about all the milk/calcium controversy. I am also wondering about the current Smoothie and Supplements craze. Danggummit, why can't we just eat FOOD?

Here's an article about getting enough calcium without dairy products. I have NO idea if any of it is correct, but it's food for conversation. (See what I did there?)









10 Natural Ways to Build Healthy Bones


It is very important to build strong and dense bones. Here are 10 natural nutrition and lifestyle tips to build and maintain healthy bones.




www.healthline.com


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

ET1 SS said:


> The reason that so many are lactose-intolerant is because cow milk IS NOT human food.
> 
> Our government has spent Billions of dollars for decades to convince the masses that cow milk has somehow good for humans. That was propaganda.


So be it but I'll bet on raw fresh milk any day.
I and all my pups have it everyday.
I'll still say it's the perfect food as in there is nothing else jam packed with healthy everything in it.
No vitamin C?
Eat an orange.
No other single food source will measure up to fresh raw milk.
And the fresh cream is even better.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> I wasn't comparing restaurants and the food at CCH....It was the patients at CCH-- mostly indigent; many what would today be called "homeless" who drank heavily and ate what ever they could scrounge out of dumpsters.
> 
> There was no "Big Ag" in the 30s, unless you consider tha large farms as seen in the movie _Of Mice & Men_. The dust bowl was the result of the combination of the hottest, driest decade on record (if you don;t count the decades in which NOAA arbitrarily added 2deg to all the data points) and the govt encouraging farmers to grow wheat on wheat, year after year. Don't forget almost all farming was done with horses & mules in those days. The only mechanization was the steam thresher.


Sorry, I worded it wrong. The pairing of fast food/CCH... Never mind. It struck me as amusing at the time, obviously it must have been a flashback to the drugs I never took in the late 70's. 

And yes, the huge large farms are the early Big Ag to which I was referring. 

It is not true that almost all farming was done with horses and mules in those days. There was far more mechanization than the steam thresher. 



Tractors Advance during the Depression


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Elevenpoint said:


> No adults also.
> No more of a complete food on the planet.
> Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and much more.
> Nothing comes close to raw fresh milk.


Many adults if not most no longer digest milk as they did when babies.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Redlands Okie said:


> Many adults if not most no longer digest milk as they did when babies.


Everyone has to play the hand they were dealt. I drink a minimum of 2 gallons a week.
Plus butter eggs yogurt ice cream cheese etc.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I don't know if there is any correlation but I love milk. Drink it every day. I still have all my teeth and no cavities yet. 57 on Thursday.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Interesting. I have wondered about all the milk/calcium controversy. I am also wondering about the current Smoothie and Supplements craze. Danggummit, why can't we just eat FOOD?
> 
> Here's an article about getting enough calcium without dairy products. I have NO idea if any of it is correct, but it's food for conversation. (See what I did there?)
> 
> ...


That article is mostly wishful thinking...

The commonly used biphosphinates increase Ca deposits in the bone, but it's abnormal bone and still brittle. While use of the drugs improves the score on bone density scans, it doesnt improve the raisk of fracutres of the hips or ribs. It may help a little in reducing the rate of vetebral compression fractures.

Ca/Viti D supplements are also prtty useless in practice if you're already suffeering from bone demineralization from aging--- the problem is you loss the ability to deposit bone as you age. Teh supplement merely imprive the supply of building blocks with no mason on hand to build the wall.

Note that the only dietary measures they mentioned in the article have to do with ALA/ omega fatty acids-- only available in large quatinties from meat. (BTW- the dietary studies they quote are flimsy evidience of their contentions.)

As I said, bone health is best managed by preventive measures (eating meat, dairy and doing heavy lifting) starting early in life, not by "catch up" treatments later on.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pony said:


> Sorry, I worded it wrong. The pairing of fast food/CCH... Never mind. It struck me as amusing at the time, obviously it must have been a flashback to the drugs I never took in the late 70's.
> 
> And yes, the huge large farms are the early Big Ag to which I was referring.
> 
> ...
















Economic History of Tractors in the United States







eh.net





Most farming was done with beasts utill after WWII. Prior to that, all farming was "organic" with virtually no industriallly produced fertilizers of pesticides.

Several scenes early in the flick showing huge acreage of wheat being harvested by horse drawn mowers. Good movie op mice and men at DuckDuckGo


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Thanks, doc. That is as I suspected. Good analogy, too.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> View attachment 103714
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excuse me.

I am obviously wrong because I was basing my assertion on documentaries (eg Ken Davis' The Dust Bowl, and BBCs Victorian Farm / Edwardian Farm) and articles like the one I cited.

Won't get into a dog-at-the-fence leg-lifting contest with you. SMH


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Dust bowl wasn't so much big AG as it was a lot of small farmers that were encouraged to plant every acre they had. They were on land that at first produced well, then the drought came and the soil blew away with nothing to hold it in place.


----------



## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> Price depends not on how much is in the ground, but on how much is being pumped from refinery to consumer. That's why prices go up right after a hurricane for awhile until the refineries forced to temporarily close get back on line.


Used to do federal oil and gas leasing and hate what I've been seeing. In addition to keeping the refineries running, there has to be a way to get the gas or oil to the refinery. The current push to stop interstate pipeline construction will curb production resulting in higher prices and an increased dependency on foreign oil. Wells shut-in while waiting for a pipeline to be constructed can't always be brought back into production. Sometimes natural gas produced while pumping oil is flared and wasted when there is no way to get it to market. 

We've already gone from being energy independent a few years ago with the federal reserves full to now using the reserves and importing more oil from countries that are not our allies. Gotta say, the DC crowd are slow learners.


----------



## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

GTX63 said:


> I could say that most drive thrus and refrigerated sections of grocery stores are marketing food poison.


Hmmm, would I rather risk a quick death from botulism or suffer a slow, painful, disease riddled death from eating the unhealthy food sold in restaurants and grocery stores? I was raised on raw milk and home canned food, along with meat and fish my Dad brought home. So was the rest of my extended family. Never an issue with food poisoning. I'm guessing more folks get sick from store bought food (think contaminated ground beef, lettuce, spinach and more) than from home grown and canned. The recall board located by the return desk at Costco makes for some horrifying reading. It seems to have tripled in size over the last decade.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

These go good with milk.
Cast iron pan bone in breaded pork chops.
1 for dinner.
1 for breakfast.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

mreynolds said:


> I don't understand why the price is soaring. We have trillions is gallons in reserve within 100 miles radius of me. It's not the largest reserve that we have by a long shot either. They drilled it twenty years ago. Just turn on the spigot.



Politics (and my personal opinion, they force the Jab and masks for the same reason)


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> Malthus’s principle of population is basically the law of supply and demand applied to the relationships between food production and population growth, which he makes clear time and again throughout the Essay. As the food supply increases, food becomes cheaper, and more children are brought into the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HD, sorry, but I disagree strongly.

Since food security occurred in Africa and India, family size has dropped precipitously. People do not need a slew of kids to guarantee some will survive. Remember that in these cultures, the kids are the Social Security net.

Also, two years ago we did not have these problems, although we did have tweets (twats?). A year ago, pipelins were shut down and oil came under fire. The Ukraine is threatened, Europe depends on Russia for fuel...

This is self inflicted.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> Pastueirzed milk comes closer-- no risk of infection. Milk is awfully good, but doesn't supply all needed nutrients in high enough quantity--no Vit C, for instance.
> 
> And, it's been shown that 90% of Chinese have lactose intolerance. Africans aren't much lower than that.


I am reading " A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century" They talk about this*. *Great book


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Evons hubby said:


> Food poisoning is just as real today as it was 100 years ago. Just not as common.



Is best to follow the FDA guides on canning. When I was a kid, people did die from improper canning.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Is best to follow the FDA guides on canning. When I was a kid, people did die from improper canning.


The USDA and FDA tell you that you can't keep canned goods more than a year. Pish-posh. Hence, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

The important thing is to be scrupulously clean when canning, follow the directions for processing To. The. Letter. and store all your jarred goods properly.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Elevenpoint said:


> View attachment 103797
> 
> These go good with milk.
> Cast iron pan bone in breaded pork chops.
> ...


Goes good with milk gravy!


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> HD, sorry, but I disagree strongly.
> 
> Since food security occurred in Africa and India, family size has dropped precipitously. People do not need a slew of kids to guarantee some will survive. Remember that in these cultures, the kids are the Social Security net.
> 
> ...



















Countries with the highest population growth rate 2021 | Statista


This statistic shows the 20 countries with the highest population growth rate in 2021.




www.statista.com


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Pony said:


> The USDA and FDA tell you that you can't keep canned goods more than a year. Pish-posh. Hence, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.
> 
> The important thing is to be scrupulously clean when canning, follow the directions for processing To. The. Letter. and store all your jarred goods properly.



You are right and I agree with you, sorry. 

What i was referring to are the temp/pressure/acidity (?) recommendations.
Actually the woman does the canning, I get to do the lifting stuff, oh, I am pretty good at taste testing too .

Merry Christmas to everyone, even Lisa in WA


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> You are right and I agree with you, sorry.
> 
> What i was referring to are the temp/pressure/acidity (?) recommendations.
> Actually the woman does the canning, I get to do the lifting stuff, oh, I am pretty good at taste testing too .
> ...


Why are you sorry to agree with me? I frequently agree with you,and have not felt the least bit apologetic for it.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Pony said:


> Why are you sorry to agree with me? I frequently agree with you,and have not felt the least bit apologetic for it.



I was not very accurate. I should be, and I want to be polite. 🤯


----------



## Zephyr19 (Dec 1, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Raw milk is the perfect food.


Perfectly made for calves!


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doc- said:


> Having worked in restaurants, both fast food and "regular," I'm amazed at how little disease is spread by them...


You're not counting cardiovascular disease and diabetes are you? Both are food born illnesses.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Pony said:


> The USDA and FDA tell you that you can't keep canned goods more than a year. Pish-posh. Hence, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.
> 
> The important thing is to be scrupulously clean when canning, follow the directions for processing To. The. Letter. and store all your jarred goods properly.


There was a show on tv where a couple of guys would open and eat/drink stuff that had expired long ago...kinda gross, but hey, they seemed to enjoy it.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

JeffreyD said:


> There was a show on tv where a couple of guys would open and eat/drink stuff that had expired long ago...kinda gross, but hey, they seemed to enjoy it.


Was it called "Fear Factor"?


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Elevenpoint said:


> No adults also.
> *No more of a complete food on the planet.*
> Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and much more.
> Nothing comes close to raw fresh milk.


I'd have to say that potatoes are.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> You're not counting cardiovascular disease and diabetes are you? Both are food born illnesses.


Those are conditions, not diseases spread by contaminated Foods.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

kinderfeld said:


> I'd have to say that potatoes are.


Man, I love potatoes... Colcannon, latkes, potato soup, mashed potatoes with gravy, twice-baked potatoes, potato skins...

<sigh>


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Those are conditions, not diseases spread by contaminated Foods.


They ARE diseases (chronic, not acute) CAUSED by unhealthy food.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Pony said:


> Man, I love potatoes... Colcannon, latkes, potato soup, mashed potatoes with gravy, twice-baked potatoes, potato skins...
> 
> <sigh>


Good news is, you can pretty much live off them. Actually, it's been done.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> They ARE diseases (chronic, not acute) CAUSED by unhealthy food.


Unhealthy? Or too much?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Pony said:


> Man, I love potatoes... Colcannon, latkes, potato soup, mashed potatoes with gravy, twice-baked potatoes, potato skins...
> 
> <sigh>


I like taters too, but prefer a varied diet.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Unhealthy? Or too much?


Unhealthy.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Was it called "Fear Factor"?


I think so! I seem to remember a Billy Beer too!!


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Unhealthy.


Could you expound a bit here. Is there a particular food or food group that causes cardiovascular disease… or diabetes?


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Could you expound a bit here. Is there a particular food or food group that causes cardiovascular disease… or diabetes?


Not a food or food group, per say, but the standard American diet. With its lack of fiber and antioxidants and its huge emphasis on animal protein and fat and free radical production, the standard American diet is the cause of the most common chronic diseases. There are places/cultures where coronary artery disease is practically unheard of.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Not a food or food group, per say, but the standard American diet. With its lack of fiber and antioxidants and its huge emphasis on animal protein and fat and free radical production, the standard American diet is the cause of the most common chronic diseases. There are places/cultures where coronary artery disease is practically unheard of.


And yet the majority of Americans who simply don’t over eat are not plagued by this “food borne” disease. I’d say it’s not what we eat as much as how much we eat. In many of those places you’ll find malnutrition and starvation are also rampant. are they food borne diseases too?


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> I think so! I seem to remember a Billy Beer too!!


I remember one episode of Fear Factor, that was playing on the televisions in a Japanese buffet where we were enjoying dinner.

One of the challenges was for the contestants to eat meat off an os penis of various animals (one was a giraffe, can't remember the rest). It was like a train wreck. Did NOT want to look, but then, couldn't NOT look!


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Pony said:


> I remember one episode of Fear Factor, that was playing on the televisions in a Japanese buffet where we were enjoying dinner.
> 
> One of the challenges was for the contestants to eat meat off an os penis of various animals (one was a giraffe, can't remember the rest). It was like a train wreck. Did NOT want to look, but then, couldn't NOT look!


Why do we do that? I do the same thing!! 😳


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Why do we do that? I do the same thing!! 😳


I never watch such while eating….. no way! Lol


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> And yet the majority of Americans who simply don’t over eat are not plagued by this “food borne” disease.


Cardiovascular disease and diabetes aren't dependent upon an unhealthy diet in excess. Just an unhealthy diet.




Evons hubby said:


> I’d say it’s not what we eat as much as how much we eat.


The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but an unhealthy diet in moderation is still unhealthy and increases the risk of the above stated diseases as well as others.



Evons hubby said:


> In many of those places you’ll find malnutrition and starvation are also rampant.


Those places exist as well as well fed healthy cultures. The absence of the standard American diet doesn't cause starvation. In fact, there are plenty of well fed malnourished people in this country. What we have noticed worldwide is that the more westernized a country's diet becomes, the rates of chronic disease sky rockets.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Evons hubby said:


> Could you expound a bit here. Is there a particular food or food group that causes cardiovascular disease… or diabetes?



Julia Child used to say "Just because you made the cake, dosent mean you should eat the whole cake"

Moderation is the key for me. I am a McDonalds junkie, but only allow myself a Quarter Pounder once or twice a year (and it makes me sick, but i don't care 🤯 )


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Cardiovascular disease and diabetes aren't dependent upon an unhealthy diet in excess. Just an unhealthy diet.


according to my googling diabetes causes are still unknown. Then there is this from Mayo:
”*Causes of type 1 diabetes*
The exact cause of type 1 diabetes is unknown. What is known is that your immune system — which normally fights harmful bacteria or viruses — attacks and destroys your insulin-producing cells in the pancreas. This leaves you with little or no insulin. Instead of being transported into your cells, sugar builds up in your bloodstream.
Type 1 is thought to be caused by a combination of genetic susceptibility and environmental factors, though exactly what those factors are is still unclear. Weight is not believed to be a factor in type 1 diabetes.
*Causes of prediabetes and type 2 diabetes*
In prediabetes — which can lead to type 2 diabetes — and in type 2 diabetes, your cells become resistant to the action of insulin, and your pancreas is unable to make enough insulin to overcome this resistance. Instead of moving into your cells where it's needed for energy, sugar builds up in your bloodstream.
Exactly why this happens is uncertain, although it's believed that genetic and environmental factors play a role in the development of type 2 diabetes too. Being overweight is strongly linked to the development of type 2 diabetes, but not everyone with type 2 is overweight.”








Diabetes - Symptoms and causes







www.mayoclinic.org


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

kinderfeld said:


> I'd have to say that potatoes are.


Not even close.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Elevenpoint said:


> Not even close.


Closer than milk for sure.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> Closer than milk for sure.


Than post a comparison of the breakdown of vitamins minerals amino acids etc. between potatoes and fresh raw milk.
Not homogenized pasteurized milk.
Raw milk.
Won't come close.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> according to my googling diabetes causes are still unknown. Then there is this from Mayo:
> ”*Causes of type 1 diabetes*
> The exact cause of type 1 diabetes is unknown. What is known is that your immune system — which normally fights harmful bacteria or viruses — attacks and destroys your insulin-producing cells in the pancreas. This leaves you with little or no insulin. Instead of being transported into your cells, sugar builds up in your bloodstream.
> Type 1 is thought to be caused by a combination of genetic susceptibility and environmental factors, though exactly what those factors are is still unclear. Weight is not believed to be a factor in type 1 diabetes.
> ...


I was referring to diabetes 2. Diabetes 1 is auto immune related. A lot of uncertainty there but there seems to be a possible connection with dairy. 

The best explanation for diabetes 2 is intramyocellular lipids. There's always going to be a genetic component to everything. And although genetics loads the gun, diet pulls the trigger. 








Intramyocellular Lipid and Insulin Resistance: Differential Relationships in European and African Americans


Insulin resistance has been associated with the accumulation of fat within skeletal muscle fibers as intramyocellular lipid (IMCL). Here, we have examined in a cross-sectional study the interrelationships among IMCL, insulin sensitivity, and adiposity ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Why do we do that? I do the same thing!! 😳


I was watching a show where people were roasting and eating large tarantulas. I hate spiders but could not change the channel.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> Closer than milk for sure.


I agree.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Elevenpoint said:


> Than post a comparison of the breakdown of vitamins minerals amino acids etc. between potatoes and fresh raw milk.
> Not homogenized pasteurized milk.
> Raw milk.
> Won't come close.


I've seen comparisons between milk and potatoes. Potatoes won.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Potatoes are not worth eating without some milk. Sour cream and cheese are milk made awesome.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Frying potatos from your garden, and then topping it with eggs from your own hens, are flat out awesome. And no dairy is needed!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> I was referring to diabetes 2. Diabetes 1 is auto immune related. A lot of uncertainty there but there seems to be a possible connection with dairy.
> 
> The best explanation for diabetes 2 is intramyocellular lipids. There's always going to be a genetic component to everything. And although genetics loads the gun, diet pulls the trigger.
> 
> ...


Interesting reading all the way through for them to conclude…. “We have no idea”
again, diet seems to affect severity of the symptoms, but is not actually related to the cause Of the condition.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

kinderfeld said:


> I've seen comparisons between milk and potatoes. Potatoes won.


Bull****


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

kinderfeld said:


> You're not counting cardiovascular disease and diabetes are you? Both are food born illnesses.


DM is a disease CAUSED by genetics but requires a dietary input to manifest itself....Without the diabietc genotype, one can eat sugar/calories by the shovel full and BS will never go above normal nor will any of the complications of DM appear.....CV disease is closely allied to DM (DM is really a disease affecting blood vessels). The association of CV disease with chol (levels are genetically determined and influenced by diet only minimally) is pretty weak....Eg- diabetics have MIs at a rate of about 60/1000/yr compared to non-diabetcs at 4/1000/yr...Hi chol raises the rate to 8/1000/yr.


kinderfeld said:


> I'd have to say that potatoes are.


If limited to a choice of only one food (why?) those who choose meat will live longer and healtheir than those who choose anything else. The Souix, being nomadic and living on The Plaines, once called The Great American Desert, with very limited access to any plant source food stuff, existed almost exclusively on bison meat for most of the year.

Beans and peas are each a little better source of vitamins, minerals & protein than potatoes, but potatoes provide more calories. It would be hard to get enough calories eating just beans or peas.....Virtually every other plant source food is painfully defiicient in most nutrients and useless as a single food.





__





SELF Nutrition Data | Food Facts, Information & Calorie Calculator







nutritiondata.self.com


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doc- said:


> DM is a disease CAUSED by genetics but requires a dietary input to manifest itself...


As I said, genetics may load the gun but diet pulls the trigger. Same with cardiovascular disease.




doc- said:


> If limited to a choice of only one food (why?) those who choose meat will live longer and healtheir than those who choose anything else.


We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Terri said:


> Frying potatos from your garden, and then topping it with eggs from your own hens, are flat out awesome. And no dairy is needed!


I wish we could "double-clike" the like button I agree with this so much, YUM!


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> DM is a disease CAUSED by genetics but requires a dietary input to manifest itself....Without the diabietc genotype, one can eat sugar/calories by the shovel full and BS will never go above normal nor will any of the complications of DM appear.....CV disease is closely allied to DM (DM is really a disease affecting blood vessels). The association of CV disease with chol (levels are genetically determined and influenced by diet only minimally) is pretty weak....Eg- diabetics have MIs at a rate of about 60/1000/yr compared to non-diabetcs at 4/1000/yr...Hi chol raises the rate to 8/1000/yr.
> 
> 
> If limited to a choice of only one food (why?) those who choose meat will live longer and healtheir than those who choose anything else. The Souix, being nomadic and living on The Plaines, once called The Great American Desert, with very limited access to any plant source food stuff, existed almost exclusively on bison meat for most of the year.
> ...



Doc, I am sorry, but I believe the true issue is being skirted here. Like so many other "diseases" it is a matter of proper nutrition and exercize.

Gut fat does send signals, that grow with the fat. Eat more crap! You fall for it, eat more, exercise less, have worse circulation, bla, bla bla.

Our society is not good at responsibility, and rule by committee only enhances that.

Do as Jordan Peterson recommends: Treat your self like someone you are responsible for...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller 20-city home price index, out Tuesday, climbed 18.4% in October from a year earlier. The gain marked a slight deceleration from a 19.1% year-over-year increase in September but was about in line with what economists had been expecting.
All 20 cities posted double-digit annual gains.









U.S. home prices surge 18.4% in October


U.S. home prices surged 18.4% in October as the housing market continues to boom in the wake of last year's coronavirus recession.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> The S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller 20-city home price index, out Tuesday, climbed 18.4% in October from a year earlier. The gain marked a slight deceleration from a 19.1% year-over-year increase in September but was about in line with what economists had been expecting.
> All 20 cities posted double-digit annual gains.
> 
> 
> ...


If that index included Austin and Houston or would be a lot higher than that.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Doc, I am sorry, but I believe the true issue is being skirted here. Like so many other "diseases" it is a matter of proper nutrition and exercise.


Exactly. These are mostly lifestyle diseases that no one needs to get.



B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Our society is not good at responsibility, and rule by committee only enhances that.
> Do as Jordan Peterson recommends: Treat your self like someone you are responsible for...


It's easier to be let off the hook by just saying that it's genetic. By looking at pictures from the 60's and 70's, you'd think that genetics have gotten pretty bad in recent decades.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

kinderfeld said:


> As I said, genetics may load the gun but diet pulls the trigger. Same with cardiovascular disease.


The Standard American Diet-and many doctors- ENCOURAGES us to eat oatmeal, and whole wheat bread, and fresh fruit, etc. And for all too many of us THAT is what triggers the diabetes

I am a card carrying Diabetic type 2, and I weigh 144 pounds I am currently losing a bit more weight to improve my figure, and because I wish to do so.

I never DID weigh more than 160, but, I have the genetics and so....yeah.

My problem started when I would eat a meal and still be hungry. What most people do not tell you is that with DM 2 your body starts delaying the release of insulin when you eat, which means that if you get up from the table when you have only eatten until you are a bit lLESS hungry then you will still have over eaten. And even if you only eat by 100 calories a day-about as much as an apple, say- you will still gain about 3 pounds the first year and more the second year, because Diabetes does get worse. And so your weight creeps up before any doctor can diagnose you.

And then there is the part about getting so hungry that you are weak and shaky, because the basic problem is that your body is no longer regulating your blood sugar. And, so, I would be either at work or driving, begin to feel ill, and the one and only cure is to eat a few bites of something, which also made my weight creep up. Because driving down the interstate while shaking is not a very good idea, and getting sick at work is not a good idea either

I never DID get over 160, but, a few obscure relatives of mine are also type 2, and, joy of joys, so am I.

I realize that it is possible to eat yourself into DM2, I really do. But, the typical somewhat pudgy person who is diagnosed DM 2 has been fighting hard to keep his/her weight down, but when you have toddlers and a job and need to drive, then a person has to be able to function, and all too often that means eating a few bites

Doctors today are more savvy than they used to be. When my condition got bad enough to show up on the tests, my doc instantly put me on a low-protein, every low-fat, high carb diet with the advice to eat a lot of oatmeal, whole wheat, and so forth. Because that was what the doctors understood back then

I felt really terrible on that diet, but I did my best, and I tried so hard that 2 years later I was diagnosed with type 2 and now I take metformin for it. And I have always wondered if I had simply been put on a low carb diet when my triglycerides had gone up if I would be non-diabetic to this day, because my diabetes has only gotten slightly worse over the last 25-odd years.

But, back then, who knew?

Doc is right: unless a person seriously over eats, then genetics is the trigger and weight gain is the result. Yes it is possible for a healthy person to make themselves sick, but, the slightly pudgy person who is fighting the battle of the bulge are heavy because of DM2, and not the other way around


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Terri said:


> The Standard American Diet-and many doctors- ENCOURAGES us to eat oatmeal, and whole wheat bread, and fresh fruit, etc. And for all too many of us THAT is what triggers the diabetes


LOL! That's not the standard American diet. The standard American diet, or western diet, is characterized by high amounts of processed foods, refined carbohydrates and added sugars, refined fats, high fat dairy products and red meat. 

Most studies show no increased diabetes risk with higher carbohydrate intake. In fact, studies conducted putting diabetics on a diet consisting of little more than white rice have seen improvement in their symptoms. Countries with the lowest rates of type 2 diabetes tend to have the highest carbohydrate intake. So it's not the carbs. Regardless of cause the good news is, like cardiovascular disease, it's often reversible.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

kinderfeld said:


> LOL! That's not the standard American diet. The standard American diet, or western diet, is characterized by high amounts of processed foods, refined carbohydrates and added sugars, refined fats, high fat dairy products and red meat.
> 
> Most studies show no increased diabetes risk with higher carbohydrate intake. In fact, studies conducted putting diabetics on a diet consisting of little more than white rice have seen improvement in their symptoms. Countries with the lowest rates of type 2 diabetes tend to have the highest carbohydrate intake. So it's not the carbs. Regardless of cause the good news is, like cardiovascular disease, it's often reversible.


LOL back at you! That is what the SAD considers to be HEALTH food! And so it encourages the consumption of such

As for your studies? Every study that I can think of says just the opposite, as does my personal experience


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Terri said:


> LOL back at you! That is what the SAD considers to be HEALTH food! And so it encourages the consumption of such


Who considers processed foods, refined carbohydrates and added sugars, refined fats, high fat dairy products and red meat to be health food?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Who considers processed foods, refined carbohydrates and added sugars, refined fats, high fat dairy products and red meat to be health food?


Dairy products and red meat are both considered healthy foods in my house, along with eggs, pork, and taters. Wanna stay healthy? Don’t mess with my biscuits n sausage gravy!


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

kinderfeld said:


> . By looking at pictures from the 60's and 70's, you'd think that genetics have gotten pretty bad in recent decades.


There is a forensic Orthodontist in the UK who says if you look at peoples faces in films/pictures from the 70's and earlier their faces look much different (aside from our chubbyness)
He says we do not eat hard stuff anymore and that messes up our palate. Even children/babys are given soft foods now and their jaws do not form well. And than we get braces that cause problems later in life. You should give it a listen.

I listened to him on the* Dark Horse Podcas*t. Made a lot of sense to me.

He says we do not eat hard stuff anymore and that messes up our palate. Was a nice listen.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

kinderfeld said:


> Who considers processed foods, refined carbohydrates and added sugars, refined fats, high fat dairy products and red meat to be health food?


?????????????
You did quote me in post 121, so I know that you already read this. But I will post it again



Terri said:


> The Standard American Diet-and many doctors- ENCOURAGES us to eat oatmeal, and whole wheat bread, and fresh fruit, etc. And for all too many of us THAT is what triggers the diabetes


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Terri said:


> ?????????????
> You did quote me in post 121, so I know that you already read this. But I will post it again





Terri said:


> The Standard American Diet-and many doctors- ENCOURAGES us to eat oatmeal, and whole wheat bread, and fresh fruit, etc. And for all too many of us THAT is what triggers the diabetes


The "standard American diet", also known as the "western diet", isn't a dietary suggestion. It's a description of the unhealthy dietary norms in the U.S. which clearly don't revolve around what you've listed. 
Perhaps you're thinking of the USDA dietary guidelines?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

kinderfeld said:


> The "standard American diet", also known as the "western diet", isn't a dietary suggestion. It's a description of the unhealthy dietary norms in the U.S. which clearly don't revolve around what you've listed.
> Perhaps you're thinking of the USDA dietary guidelines?
> .


We have a different definition, I suspect. I was describing this: "a description of the dietary norms in the U.S."

The difference that one word makes!


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Terri said:


> We have a different definition, I suspect. I was describing this: "a description of the dietary norms in the U.S."
> 
> The difference that one word makes!


I meant this.
Which unfortunately is the norm.









Why Is the US So Unhealthy? The Truth About the Standard American Diet


It’s been proven that the standard American diet is harmful to your health. One of the best ways to improve your diet is with these good mood foods…




brainmd.com




_The SAD diet is largely composed of unhealthy foods that Dr. Daniel Amen refers to as weapons of mass destruction. These foods are:
_

_Highly processed- essential nutrients lost_
_Pro-inflammatory- injurious to muscles, joints, and organs_
_Artificially colored and sweetened- toxic to the liver and other organs_
_High glycemic index- overworks the body’s sugar processing system_
_Low in fiber- robs probiotics of the food they need_
_Laden with hormones- can adversely affect the body’s delicate hormone balance_
_Pesticide sprayed- toxic to humans_
_Tainted with antibiotics- harmful to probiotics_







__





standard american diet - Google Search






www.google.com


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Eat sensibly, in moderation, and every once in a while, unhook that chain that tethers your ass to the couch and move around a little.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

gilberte said:


> Eat sensibly, in moderation, and every once in a while, unhook that chain that tethers your ass to the couch and move around a little.


If only.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Determine to form a habit, which then becomes a routine, which then becomes a behavior.
If you have to think about a behavior, it is not a habit. Most people don't have to think about whether or not to sit on the couch.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Uh, guys? Most of us are homesteaders, right? Lack of exercise is not generally a problem


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Doc, I am sorry, but I believe the true issue is being skirted here. Like so many other "diseases" it is a matter of proper nutrition and exercize.
> 
> Gut fat does send signals, that grow with the fat. Eat more crap! You fall for it, eat more, exercise less, have worse circulation, bla, bla bla.
> 
> ...


If only thatwere true, then we could each controlk our own destinies-- but it's not true. Our healthdepends alomost exclusely on genetics +/- luck. many studies in the med lit to suppor that.

In regards your take on fat dposits-- please note that people who put fat mostly into "the love handles" have much lower rates of CAD than those who put it on up fornt--all gentically controlled....You have your fantasies about diet & excercise. I have 45 yrs of professional experience with the subject.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Terri said:


> Uh, guys? Most of us are homesteaders, right? Lack of exercise is not generally a problem


Good point...also keep in mind that exercise has limited long term value. You can't exercise for a portion of your life and then quit, expecting lasting benefits to remain.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> Good point...also keep in mind that exercise has limited long term value. You can't exercise for a portion of your life and then quit, expecting lasting benefits to remain.


Move until you die


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

doc- said:


> Good point...also keep in mind that exercise has limited long term value. You can't exercise for a portion of your life and then quit, expecting lasting benefits to remain.


I had a cross country coach in high school who told us once that it was better to run now and quit later than to not run at all and then try later in life. You can restart at 40 and it will come easier than starting at 40.
FWIW, it worked for me.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> If only thatwere true, then we could each controlk our own destinies-- but it's not true. Our healthdepends alomost exclusely on genetics +/- luck. many studies in the med lit to suppor that.
> 
> In regards your take on fat dposits-- please note that people who put fat mostly into "the love handles" have much lower rates of CAD than those who put it on up fornt--all gentically controlled....You have your fantasies about diet & excercise. I have 45 yrs of professional experience with the subject.



I cannot accept that our destiny is pre-ordained. Understanding our short comings helps us mitigate them. 

Many people are genetically disposed to storing excess calories, often genetically from areas where calories are difficult to obtain.
So what do we do, continue eating high energy foods, or eat a less energetic food? 
Given my familial back round I could be quite large, but I limit my carbs and sugars, eat salads and meats, stay away from the processed foods. (except for beer, yum!  )
I am 167# most weeks. My smaller, younger sister is just about my weight and she has all kinds of problems, not to mention my aunts and uncles.

I agree with Professor Einstein that given the choice between luck and intelligence, luck may be the better choice, but that is not in my DNA. I am am more like "rage against the machine" type.

I always liked that meme where the stork has the frog in it's beak, but the frog has it's hands clasped around the storks neck preventing it from swallowing.
It aint over 'till the fat lady sings... or it anint over 'till it is over. Never give up!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Doc never did say that fat was pre-ordained.

He DID say that it was not simple. And it is not. My weight gain when I was younger was triggered by my insulin resistance and my bodies reluctance to release insulin in a timely manner. The doctors did not understand it either, which is why they recommended! cheerios with sliced bananas as a "healthy" low-fat breakfast. Back then, who knew?

Our physical body's reaction to food is what we cannot control, because it is under the control of our genetics. It is possible to work WITH our bodies by eating what our bodies can handle, but, my body will never deal with carbs in the manner that a non-diabetic's will. That is not under my control


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I cannot accept that our destiny is pre-ordained. Understanding our short comings helps us mitigate them.
> 
> Many people are genetically disposed to storing excess calories, often genetically from areas where calories are difficult to obtain.
> So what do we do, continue eating high energy foods, or eat a less energetic food?
> ...


Concerning trying to educate you on this matter, I'll follow the advice of Dragline in _Coolhand Luke_ when the guys were annoying Coco--"Leave him alone...He's happy."


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Well I started a post that got and stayed interesting! Fairly nice discussion.

I’ve often heard eggs are pretty close to a perfect food.

potatoes offer a lot, but they lack some important bits. Protein.

milk is also lot of good stuff, but just too much liquid and not enough fiber.

any one really doesn’t fit the balance we need.

sure glad I and most of us don’t have to eat just one thing, and can do the food pyramid or whatever they call it these days. The perfect food is some variety! 

Back to my thread starter, I hope we continue to have that variety in the coming years....

Paul


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

doc- said:


> If only thatwere true, then we could each controlk our own destinies-- but it's not true. Our healthdepends alomost exclusely on genetics +/- luck. many studies in the med lit to suppor that.
> 
> In regards your take on fat dposits-- please note that people who put fat mostly into "the love handles" have much lower rates of CAD than those who put it on up fornt--all gentically controlled....You have your fantasies about diet & excercise. I have 45 yrs of professional experience with the subject.


A tale of 2 brothers. My uncles, Ike and Moe. They owned a gym in Canada before moving to California. Ike ate lots of fish, red wine in moderation, was a massage therapist...used to wear a speedo all the time! 😬 
Moe, ate lots of red meat, drank vodka like it was going out of style, smoked unfiltered cigarettes for decades. Ike passed away about 25 years ago from a massive heart attack. Moe, passed away last year at the age of 101. He retired when he was 97. He was a personal trainer at Golds gym in Palm Desert. They paid him $1 per year. That was the price he asked for. He absolutely loved his clients. Look up
Moe Carson Rachel Ray. I think he still holds the Guinness record for pull ups for his age. He was crazy. If you see his Rachel Ray clip, he was that way ALL THE TIME! I really miss him, Ike too...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is a clip of Moe @ 90.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

rambler said:


> Well I started a post that got and stayed interesting! Fairly nice discussion.
> 
> I’ve often heard eggs are pretty close to a perfect food.
> 
> ...


I think chili over pasta with a good dollop of sour cream is as perfect a food as it gets.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Evons hubby said:


> I think chili over pasta with a good dollop of sour cream is as perfect a food as it gets.



Don't start me!

Chile cheese fries with jalapenos, sour cream, and salsa all with a nice tall glass of beer! YUM 😆


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

Pony said:


> Goes good with milk gravy!


Surely there is a biscuit hiding close by to do with the pork chop and milk gravy????


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Evons hubby said:


> I think chili over pasta with a good dollop of sour cream is as perfect a food as it gets.


Just had that with milk.
I'm in bed resting now since its18 outside anyway.


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## starrynights (Oct 7, 2021)

Pony said:


> The USDA and FDA tell you that you can't keep canned goods more than a year. Pish-posh. Hence, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.
> 
> The important thing is to be scrupulously clean when canning, follow the directions for processing To. The. Letter. and store all your jarred goods properly.


absolutely...I canned all kinds of veggies for years. I was so particular about tops of jars and the lids, and then about the lids being tightened just right.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

rambler said:


> I’ve often heard eggs are pretty close to a perfect food.


At 200mg of cholesterol per egg, not close at all, imho.



rambler said:


> potatoes offer a lot, but they lack some important bits. Protein.


You may be deficient in some things with potatoes but protein isn't among them.



rambler said:


> milk is also lot of good stuff, but just too much liquid and not enough fiber.


Too much bad with the good, imo. And...no fiber.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I read that a person could live a healthy live on nothing but milk AND potatoes.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doc- said:


> If only thatwere true, then we could each controlk our own destinies-- but it's not true. Our healthdepends alomost exclusely on genetics +/- luck. many studies in the med lit to suppor that.


What the average person eats effects their health far more than their genetics. Plus other environment factors. Not genetics. Many studies in the med lit supports that.









Genetic Factors Are Not the Major Causes of Chronic Diseases


The risk of acquiring a chronic disease is influenced by a person’s genetics (G) and exposures received during life (the ‘exposome’, E) plus their interactions (G×E). Yet, investigators use genome-wide association studies ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Unless you have different genetics because your mama was an actual hippo, our diet and metabolism follow pretty set patterns. There is no bad food. There is no good food. The right amount of the right protein/fat/carbohydrate ratio is what humans need.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeffreyD said:


> ...used to wear a speedo all the time! 😬


Back in the day, me and my buddy used to go to the beach every day wearing Speedos. Every day he would get lucky and leave with some babe, while I was routinely ignored by all...I asked him his secret?..."You gotta put a potato down your Speedo," he confided... I tried it the next day. As soon as I arrived, everyone started yelling, throwing things at me and chasing me away with sticks..."What's wrong here? I did what you said!"...He looked at me and shook his head...":No, no, no. You gotta put the potato in the FRONT."


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

kinderfeld said:


> What the average person eats effects their health far more than their genetics. Plus other environment factors. Not genetics. Many studies in the med lit supports that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thoroughly BS study-- Major weakness- no well defined method of determinign genetic vs envrinmental contributions....With 20,000 human genes, there's 20,000! combnations and permutartions to an idividual's possible genotype-- no way to ever deterimine it's relationship to disease the way they've done it. ..Look at Table 1-- it doesn't support their contention and they ignore it in the discussion.

Numerous single gene diseases are well known, Any disease assicaited with inflammation (that's most of them) are intimatley invovled with genetics. Any disese associated with inheritable or spontaneous mutations (all cancer) is genetic....etc etc. The genetic basis of disease

Once again -- It's genetics + environment + chance, with gen & envir that major players.....Take lung cancer-- 90% occurs in smokers, but only 10% of smokers get it....Why???


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