# Safety Whelping Box for LGDs/Pet Dogs



## Goatress

I first saw this done by a European breeder. IT WORKS. The pups have a 'lip' to crawl under and away from mamma when she decides to bed down, and like most dogs she wants to slam her toosh up against the side or a wall, and sit then lay down. Well, she can only it's up against the pvc pipe not the actual side, thus giving pups space to crawl away from her. I have never lost a pup since having this built. It is out of plywood, nailed and glued at seams. Had a guy build it to my specs. I think the pvc is 2" width or 2 1/2". 
With all materials and labor I paid a guy $300 to do it. Best $300 I ever spent. I can leave mom in there now knowing no pups smashed. I buy my rags/bedsheets/throws cheap at local thrift shop, they even give me some. You could keep this in your barn if you wanted, too. 

First photo is whole box then two corner details. Hope this is helpful to you all. OH final bonus pics proof that it works: healthy happy pups gamboling around with Patron the giant babysitter......grin!


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## Minelson

That is an awesome tip and the pictures are ADORABLE!!!


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## Goatress

I am certain it could be done cheaper too, maybe make sides shorter....anyhow, it works. The little guys crawl under that pvc and sleep protected and mom can't mash 'em.


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## Willowynd

It can be done cheaper. I make mine out of 1 by 6's stacked 2 high on sides and back and one high in front and use 2 by 2's for the pig rail and corners to hold it all together- assembles with some screws, disassembles simply by taking out the screws and stores flat. I leave wood bare first litter, paint with latex for each successive litter before setting up. You really don't want high sides. I made that mistake with my first whelping box and litter. Mom jumped in over the side and on a puppy...broke its leg. 12 inches is plenty tall to keep out drafts and contain pups until thier eyes are open.


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## mekasmom

The "grayish" colored pup has a beautiful coat. I've never used a whelping box, other than a cardboard box with a pillow and old towels in it. My big female had 14 puppies a couple of years ago, and did so-so with them. That's my only experience with giant dog litters. The little dogs just don't lay on their puppies like bigger ones do. I didn't realize it was such an issue with larger dogs. The box is a good idea for them.


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## nehimama

I can see how this would work, BUT. Once mama plops down on top of them, HOW can they possibly get out from under her? Especially when they're very, very young?


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## Willowynd

Most mom's do try to be careful and will lean up to listen if she hears it and the pup can generally wiggle out from under. The biggest issue I believe, is when mom is sleeping, she rolls or pushes herself against the edge of the box in her sleep and a pup gets trapped and suffocates or squished. The pig rail prevents that. Also, many losses are due to pups getting under bedding. Before I went to a whelping frame I simply had a box and laid the bedding in there...pup gets under and when mom walks into or around the box, she steps on it. Nothing more heartbreaking the the look on a careful and motherly bitches face that just accidentally stepped on and killed a pup because it got under the bedding and her trying to revive the pup. After that I went to my current set up (which has worked well for many years) which is actually a frame that sits on top of a sheet of sheepskin fabric which holds it in place and keeps pups from being able to get under it.


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## fishhead

nehimama said:


> I can see how this would work, BUT. Once mama plops down on top of them, HOW can they possibly get out from under her? Especially when they're very, very young?


That's what I wonder. I knew that pigs had this problem but I didn't expect it with a dog.

Maybe if the bedding was more firm and less deep so the ***** could feel the difference between the bedding and the pup.


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## Goatress

Most pups yelp - most moms will get up when they realize pup is pinned down. Regular checking in on the litter by the owner is also a good preventative, goes without saying...


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## Fionas Love

This is a great idea. However, there is still the possibility of pups hangin' out in the center. What if mom does wanna lay down and accidently lays on a pup and crushes it due to no give. I have built a shelf around the inside wall for the pups to lay, and put a 5x5 ft peice of a foam like what is in couch coushins in the center. This way if mom lays on a pup it will push the pup into the pad. In order to do this I made the side wall 20 inches tall and put the shelf about 15 inches down from the top. On one side I cut down 6 inches and made an opening for mom to step in. You still put the bedding in as normal but I recommend covering the foam with a heavy ml. plastic for easy cleaning. What you end up with is a 5x5 whelping box with a 10 inch shelf all the way around the inside and an open center. Set the plastic covered foam on the floor and the box will sit right on top. I made 2 of these so I can transfer the pups to the second box and they are still comfortable while I clean the first and get it set up for the next transfer. But I do this 6 to 8 times a day. I love my babies!!! Oh I also covered the wood with a plastic as you may have seen on a shower surround and caulked all the corners with a silicone based caulk, and put a vinyl cap moulding on the top. The pups can't chew that. But makes it so you can virtually clean it with a damp rag. But I do use an anti-bacterial cleaner.


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## Goatress

Great idea Fionas Love...


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## BarbadosSheep

I built something similar, but much cheaper and easy DIY. I made the box out of 2x6 lumber, standing up on edge. Then I screwed a 2x4 on it's side, around the top inside edge. Instead of using rags and blankets which puppies can become entangled in, I set the frame down on a piece of carpet. a heating pad goes under the carpet in one corner. The carpet can be replaced every couple of days as needed and the pups can't get tangled up under stuff and not seen by the mother. I know a lot of folks use kiddy pools for whelping but that scared me to pieces because there is no safety rail. I raised Labradors for years and never lost a puppy due to being smooshed or smothered.


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## Goatress

I lay one large blanket over the whole pile of rags you see in my photos, which are washed several times as needed. With one big blanket on top it is not unlike your carpet piece. But I can wash it. And pups never get tangled in it. Heating pads scare me, because the chance of something chewing the cord, and the chance of overheating.


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## BarbadosSheep

they can't get to the cord. It's under the carpet with the cord coming out from the whelping box. The dam could I guess, but none of mine ever did. Since the heating pad is only in one corner, the pups can move onto it or away from it as they need to in order to regulate their temperature.


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## Ross

My dad used a similar box, with a plywood rim leaving a 6 inch space. I kinda like the tubing better.


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## MonsterMalak

Being that I lost my CHOICE male pup one time, I will have to build one of these. Especially with the Bigger moms I will have in the future.



Great info everyone. 

This is what I love about forums. People sharing experience and ideas.


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## lockhart76

I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but perhaps a ***** that is careless with her pups or 'accidentally' lays on them should not be considered as a breeding female? Or the pups that die were too weak to squirm out or yelp loud enough and therefore it is okay (albeit very sad) that they perish??? As breeders do we want to propagate poor characteristics within a breed? I know of a bulldog breeder who never permits his bitches to whelp, the mortality is much to high for pups and moms, so he schedules a C-section. I feel guardian dogs and primitive breeds are a long ways from there, but it starts with practices like this perhaps???? I know many of you have dogs worth much more than I do and each puppy represents a significant investment, but what are you working towards in the long run? I have a maremma ***** who works marvellously for us. She is coming three and just had her first litter. I did nothing for her (although I was very apprehensive.) She disappeared for several days and I searched to find her den so I could drop off food. I finally found her in a dense thicket of willows and brush interspersed with a slash pile from when the fenceline was cleared with a dozer. She had managed to find a snug cave completely secluded from the weather and had whelped four healthy pups on her own. Is this not the type of hardy maternal instincts we would like to propagate? I was so proud of her. I can't help but think that this is what occurs in countries like Turkey where the dogs and shepherds live with the sheep in harsh climates. I am certain those bitches have never seen a whelping crate and their incredible offspring- be they Kangals, Anatolian Shepherds, Boz Shepherds, Kuvasz or the like- are exactly what dogs should be. They are amazing creatures so lets keep them that way. I appreciate your comments.


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## LoneStrChic23

Here are plans that my breeder used when making her box (Danes) though hers all folds down flat & is stored under a bed in a guest room when not in use.

http://www.mcemn.com/WB-WhelpingBox.html

She also uses Drymate Green Dog whelping box liners.....padded, keep moisture away, washable & sturdy.....I used then when I fostered a pregnant Dane/Mastiff mix and loved them. Kept 2 on hand so I could lay down a fresh one while the other was in the wash....Didn't have to worry about puppies getying tangled in blankets.


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## acde

great idea. i covered my box with contact paper easy to wipe down also served as dry erase board vets # handy and kids did boy/girl score board as they were born, great memories.


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## Ross

lockhart76 said:


> I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but perhaps a ***** that is careless with her pups or 'accidentally' lays on them should not be considered as a breeding female? Or the pups that die were too weak to squirm out or yelp loud enough and therefore it is okay (albeit very sad) that they perish??? As breeders do we want to propagate poor characteristics within a breed? I know of a bulldog breeder who never permits his bitches to whelp, the mortality is much to high for pups and moms, so he schedules a C-section. I feel guardian dogs and primitive breeds are a long ways from there, but it starts with practices like this perhaps???? I know many of you have dogs worth much more than I do and each puppy represents a significant investment, but what are you working towards in the long run? I have a maremma ***** who works marvellously for us. She is coming three and just had her first litter. I did nothing for her (although I was very apprehensive.) She disappeared for several days and I searched to find her den so I could drop off food. I finally found her in a dense thicket of willows and brush interspersed with a slash pile from when the fenceline was cleared with a dozer. She had managed to find a snug cave completely secluded from the weather and had whelped four healthy pups on her own. Is this not the type of hardy maternal instincts we would like to propagate? I was so proud of her. I can't help but think that this is what occurs in countries like Turkey where the dogs and shepherds live with the sheep in harsh climates. I am certain those bitches have never seen a whelping crate and their incredible offspring- be they Kangals, Anatolian Shepherds, Boz Shepherds, Kuvasz or the like- are exactly what dogs should be. They are amazing creatures so lets keep them that way. I appreciate your comments.


I don't accept the premise at all. As in any breeding program the goal is to advance certain traits either physical or behavior charactoristics. Mothering is only one trait, and while valuable it might not be one of the few traits a breeder is trying to improve at that time. You can only advance a few traits at in any breeding. Besides accidents happen to the best mothers and the strongest pup, to say they were the weak link is a bit speculative. All a good whelping box does is help as many pups survive to a point they can be looked at to see if the desired traits were passed along and if any are worth using as breeders or LGDs etc. Not assisting the mother does not ensure your weeding out the weakest at all, it leaves you with the lucky ones. JMO though.


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## Goatress

Actually, in Turkey, bitches often whelp litters INSIDE....nothing fancy, but they are brought in to whelp out in a barn or building. I have seen dozens of photos of this. Maybe just some straw on the ground or dirt, but they are inside. I am sure there are those who whelp out with the stock too. But I have been told the shepherds prefer to be near when this happens. They invest too much in these dogs and depend on them so much, I think this is why they don't take unnecessary risks.

I am inclined to agree with Ross. From another standpoint, a Maremma dog can be easily acquired in this country and are often cheap - relatively speaking - to replace. I have invested thousands of dollars in Spanish Mastiff, Kangal, Boz and Pyrenean Mastiff imports. None of these are breeds than can just be replaced in a snap - they are rare here. It stands to reason I would want to have more control over the situation and not have my pups eaten up or the mother injured during whelping. I'd have to go back to square one. lockhart76 you breed I assume for replacement pups but don't actively market them to others. I already have a long list of people waiting for my Spanish Mastiff pups, if I were to lose a litter and/or the dam it would be terrible, hence, I will be taking no chances, and take responsible action by whelping them inside.

Also, if your Maremma should throw a pup with a deformity, this is going to happen regardless if the pup is outside or in. The real question is: do you cull? Whether born in or outside?

I know a lot of people do the 'whelp out in the wild' here. I guess it comes down to how much you are willing to accept losses should it NOT go as well as your situation did, lockhart76. Me...if I've invested all that time in a breeding and pregnancy, I'd be devastated if something happened to the pups or the *****. 

A whelping box does not guarantee survival of pups either. Although none of mine have ever been crushed, I have culled pups who did not meet standards, such as bad bites or in once case a little female had her leg pressed or bent in the womb and came out somewhat deformed. I have my vet put these pups down. So there IS a 'survival of the strongest' factor still present here because I won't sell a pup with a deformity. If you have pups outside and one comes out undershot really bad and you don't cull it, you in effect are allowing an inferior dog to progress in the world, and where it was born had nothing to do with that..... Just my .02 cents.


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## Goatress

What Lois won't ever tell board members here or anywhere, for that matter, is that ALL of her dogs (not counting your dead stud dog, Lois) share the same genetics as mine do. So by belittling the bloodlines and genetics of my Spanish Mastiffs she has in effect just slandered her own breeding program. She owns a full sister to my Spanish import, Patron. All her other dogs share bloodlines in grandparents/parents (Basil of Mastiffland, Florita Maja, etc etc). 

Anyone needing proof of this statement need only to go to our websites, and it is there for all to see. I will gladly provide extended pedigree info to anyone asking and you will see for yourself how many dogs our mastines share in common in their backgrounds..... 

Lois, isn't it time we took our disagreements to private E-mails instead of sniping on public boards?


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## Goatress

Not being the EXPERT you are Lois, fortunately I will never have to breed for the show circuit, which I disdain. I can only go by my dog's overall well-being. They are healthy and sound and content, and with the sole exception of the puppy that I bought from you who had to be rehomed due to severe temperament issues and pronounced livestock aggression, all of my mastines as well as all of my other LGD's are superior livestock guardians, and the pups I have placed are as well - I have the recommendations and references to back it up. My Spanish Mastiffs LOOK like Spanish Mastiffs, not like crossbred bullmastiffs or Labradors. My goal is to provide good working stock for livestock protection. I raise my dogs in a pack situation so they are comfortable working outdoors with other dogs. My SM breeding stock is all still young and conformation changes weekly with their growth spurts. As they mature, many of these perceived 'faults' that you think you see, will correct themselves. I think I will agree to disagree with you but MY dogs will be serving entirely different purposes in the future than yours; I just contracted a litter of SM to a livestock organization for testing against wolves. By the way, Pia's photo is on my page as one of my mastines, I have not bred her (and she again shares same genetics as YOUR dogs....). For your enlightenment Lois Jordan, three vets - including two top specialists in Europe - assessed that her hind leg was due most likely to a in-womb mis-positioning, and does not show ANY genetic basis. Lourdes Martin and Lenka Erbenova have the greatest faith in their dogs and I am shocked at you badmouthing those kennels and that you would degrade them in such a manner on a public forum.


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## acde

children, children


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## jordan

I think you need to re-read my post Brenda. You missed the point about breeding correct dogs. 
I don't breed for the show circuit and never have. My focus is dogs that are correct in structure and temperament. You yourself had commented in a previous post here about the consistancy of my dogs temperaments! 

Puppies can be evaluated at 7 weeks old and any faults are apparent at that time. Though the degree may lessen slightly, or become less noticeable for a period of time while they go through various growth spurts, the fault is definitely there. A dog that started out with those noticeable faults, has them through their first year and into their second, is not going to "correct" itself at this point.

You may not have bred Pia, but then you haven't bred any Spanish Mastiffs at all. You do have her listed as a future breeding dog. As for the genetic defect, I was simply repeating what you told me yourself on your way home from your vet - that she was diagnosed with a genetic defect. From what I was told, her littermate was euthanized for the same defect.

As for bad mouthing EU breeders, I absolutely did not. No breeder claims to breed perfect litters. Regardless of your feelings on the subject, not every puppy is breeding qaulity. Almost every one of us that has imported dogs, have gotten dogs that are less than ideal at one point or another. The difference is in what you do or don't do with that dog. I have a whole page devoted to this subject on my website. My first import had bad rear legs too (cow-hocked and no angulations), I loved her and it was her superb temperament that started my love affair with the breed, but once I recognized those faults, I never bred her.
Lois


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## Goatress

acde: I sent you a PM :~)

Lois: I don't know where you get your information from, or who told you that but the breeder of Pia has not said anything to me about it, and we've stayed in touch; nor has Lenka Erbenova, who corresponds with her frequently. And what I did tell you was way BEFORE she was sent to specialists here, and x rays sent to experts in Europe for further evaluation, who decided it was most likely NOT genetic but an injury. 

Chuck, I sent you a PM too. ;~)

Patron says, as usual, self appointed experts put him to sleep.


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## jordan

Goatress said:


> what I did tell you was way BEFORE she was sent to specialists here, and x rays sent to experts in Europe for further evaluation, who decided it was most likely NOT genetic but an injury.
> 
> 
> 
> From another post a few weeks ago..."I have a female Spanish Mastiff with bad tibias (note: out of HD rated A parents too, so much for saying A hips = no problems, not hardly)...that developed when she was around 4-5 mos old."
> Don't bother responding Brenda. You can't spin this.
> Lois
Click to expand...


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## Goatress

:flameproofundies: :hijacked::hijacked::boring::boring::umno::umno::umno:


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## Goatress

:flameproofundies: 

:hijacked::hijacked:

:boring::boring:

:umno::umno::umno:


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## HappyFarmer

Ladies,

You serve no purpose bashing each other on this forum. 

You are not showing good form.

Everybody has faults within their breeding animals. No dog is perfect, all have a bad trait or two, and given the rarity of these breeds in this country, probably a few more. Breeders aren't going to send the best of the best overseas, just like I'm not going to sell my best goat(s).

Please, you are only hurting yourselves, because, quite frankly, if much more dirty laundry is aired, I would not buy a breeding dog from either one of you, because sooner or later you would indeed be degrading my breeding dog on a public forum that I bought from you!

For crying out loud, take it private. Your dogs will sell themselves for the purposes they are bought for. If not, you will not be selling dogs for very long and the competition will be out. And that is the way it is with anything.

HF


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## HappyFarmer

My last litter my bit*c layed on over half the pups, she had them & raised them out in the pasture though, so I'm thinking it may have been her being distracted with protecting her charges and not paying attention. 

In my frustrations I found this welping box, by that time they were 2 weeks old and the issue stopped. I stopped breeding, so never had the chance to try it out. 

HF


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## Goatress

Happy Farmer,

You are absolutely correct.

Thank you Happy Farmer for bringing my original topic back on topic.

I apologize publicly to everyone, for having to come in and defend myself against the original attacking post by jordan that began this whole off-topic tirade. You can read above where I asked her to go private: and you have seen how she responded to that initial request. 

I have already pm'd two people to apologize to them directly and also asked Chuck to delete all of the posts if it would better suit this thread as it's now been yanked waaaay off topic....

Back to your comment about whelping boxes.....they are certainly not a 100% cure, pups can still get crushed if they are too young to scoot out of mom's way. So far I have been fortunate with mine and if I experience any issues otherwise, down the road I'll post here.


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