# AR vs. Mini-14



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

The Mosin Nagant thread got me to thinking about rifles again. 

Any opinions/experiences out there regarding the AR platform vs. a Ruger Mini-14? 

I know that, in general, the AR is supposed to be more accurate, mags are cheaper, and it's a very common platform. On the downside, it's a relatively dirty mechanism that requires meticulous cleaning (so I've read). On the flip side is the Mini-14. An action based on the M1 Garand and M-14 action, mags are more expensive, it's less accurate (but wasn't designed to be a target rifle with 1" MOA). 

I just want a .223 caliber that's absolutely reliable. I'm not into MOA accuracy - if I could hit a paper plate at 100 yards I'd be very happy. 

Price - a Mini-14 decked out can be had for under $600 (or right around that including a transfer fee) while the cheapest decent AR is at least several hundred dollars more.

Thanks for any thoughts, opinions, experiences.


----------



## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Personally, I'd rather have an AR. Accuracy being a big factor. Another plus for the AR is that it is so easy to customize. The ability to change barrel lengths, calibers, ect. just by switching uppers is a plus. On the negative side for the AR is, as you mentioned, the price difference between them and the mini-14.

Mini-14s aren't usually as accurate as an AR but should do substantially better than 'minute of paper plate'. I have read that the newer mini-14s are more accurate than the older ones. I'm sure either rifle would serve you well.


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

About anything will hit a paper plate at 100 yds. An AK variant SAR-3 is .223 and wouldn be less expensive that the Mini or the AR. Why do you want a .223?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Texas_Plainsman said:


> About anything will hit a paper plate at 100 yds. An AK variant SAR-3 is .223 and wouldn be less expensive that the Mini or the AR. Why do you want a .223?


The biggest advantage for the AR, at least for me is weight.
AR's are very light, not to mention they are tacticool.
The Mini-14 is pretty nice, I've got one with a Butler Creek folding stock in stainless. Mine's an older one, thinner barrel, and the barrel heats up quick, but always very reliable.
One you might think about is the Saiga .223 (if you are stuck on .223)
I've got the Saiga too.
Based on the Kalashnikov (AK-47) design, made at the Izhmash factory, home of the AK-47, they are a great gun for the price.
I can hit a pop bottle at a hundred yards with no problem.
You should be able to pick one up for under $400, and there's a ton of accessories out there for them.
Pricewise, the AR is highest, followed by the Ruger, then the Saiga.
I think the Saiga is a great gun for the money.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Texas_Plainsman said:


> Why do you want a .223?


I guess that would be my question as well.

AR-many more accessories available, cheaper once you have the platform.
Including uppers in all kind of calibers.

Mini 14 good solid rifle, not as many add-ons.
Traded mine off, was an early modle, not much out there as far a stuff that fits. 
Mini 30 shoots 7.62 x 39, I think?


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

The Saiga .308 is attractive to me; however, the cost of the magazines are out of sight. If you use a tactical vest... you might have six pockets plus one in the gun, that's seven mags and you've almost spent as much as the gun costs. 

I


Cornhusker said:


> The biggest advantage for the AR, at least for me is weight.
> AR's are very light, not to mention they are tacticool.
> The Mini-14 is pretty nice, I've got one with a Butler Creek folding stock in stainless. Mine's an older one, thinner barrel, and the barrel heats up quick, but always very reliable.
> One you might think about is the Saiga .223 (if you are stuck on .223)
> ...


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Mini 30 does shoot 7.62 x 39. 

I've never known anyone who had a Mini 14 that shot better than 2 MOA. 



hunter63 said:


> I guess that would be my question as well.
> 
> AR-many more accessories available, cheaper once you have the platform.
> Including uppers in all kind of calibers.
> ...


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> Mini 30 shoots 7.62 x 39, I think?


Yep. Had one in stainless, definitely one of my favorite firearms.

I've had both, and between the AR and mini-14, I'd prefer the AR for reasons already listed by other posters. For sure, the M-14 was super-reliable, but was in a chambering that offered enough "pop" to cycle the action even if it got a bit dirty. That (more or less) same action in .223 ain't near so forgiving, though, and I've seen the mini fail plenty of times.

If what you want is a rock-solid reliable .223, there are better options. One of my shootin' buddies has a Romanian AK in .223, reliable as can be, and every bit as accurate as (and possibly moreso than) an out-of-the box mini-14.
Heck, for that matter, you can pick one up in a single shot. My neighbor's main deer rifle is a single shot in .223, an H&R, I believe, and it's a dern tack driver.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the mini is stupid easy to feild strip , but it takes just the right angle to get the bolt carrier and bolt assembly back in 

i can't speak for the AR as i have never shot one but the mini is a big step up from the AK better safty , takes a scope well enough on the old ones and great on the new ones 
the safty is where it should be you can load and unload with the safty on. 

basicaly i feel like the mini is a fine gun , mags can be found reasonable not quite as reasonable as an AR but it is all about price if you can get a mini for a reasonable price get it 

a freind found bargain bin AR's in a M4 config for 600 and some odd dollars he bought one and paid 20 extra for hand pick it has one scrach on the reciver so if it was a choice between a AR and a Mini at the same price i would probably go AR but if the Mini was a more than a hundred less then it would depend a lot on price 

but if it is a choice between a AK and a Mini i would definitly go Mini 

now if somone would make a carbines in 9m and 45 with a barrel length around 12-14 inches with a 4.5 inch tube welded on to make the 16.5 this would optimise the round and meet the atf rules 
it needs to have a good easy on off safty, sights , and scope mount decent mags 
and if they could do it for a reasonable price 
the closest thing to this i have found is a kit for your 1911 or glock but it is 350 and a 1911 or glock lower so just above reasonable in my book i want all that for say under 400

but what i really want is a box magizine fed 20ga slug gun with 18-20 inch barrel 
when you hunt drives and your in an out of the trucks all day it would sure be nice to not have to handle every shell every drive if you get say 7-8 drives in a day load and unload at the begining and end of each drive 5 shells thats 14-16 load/unload thats 80-90 shell handlings 

i would also like say 7-8 rounds in the mag , i have been known to take more than one deer at a time so if 5 are comming at me and we have the tags i hate to be empty


----------



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Coming from a semi-auto novice....

The mini-14 is hard as heck to shoot. It suffers greatly from muzzle rise.
The AR is a dream.... you can hold it on target and empty the clip with flinching.


Just my .2 cents


----------



## countrymech (Nov 28, 2005)

I have shot both and own both. My preference is the AR-15, hands down. I still keep the Mini-14 around for a back-up if you will, but the AR-15 is the way to go. My main reason for this is the magazine wells of the 2 rifles. Anyone in any situation can slap a mag into an AR without thinking about it. On the other hand the Mini-14 requires the magazine to be properly aligned with the catch pin and rolled back into position. I've dimpled my mags a few times because I wasn't paying attention and just crammed them in. In a high stress situation I feel that the Mini would be a liability and I'd rather not bet my life on it. Just an opinion.


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I'd choose the AR because I believe what Col. Townsend Whelen wrote, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."

Another option, check out KelTec rifles. http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/ They have several very very interesting 223 choices, they use AR mags, some fold, they have good reviews. I love their handguns, and plan on checking out their new 30 round 22 Mag pistol next spring when it is released.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow - that was awesome input in short order. To answer some of the questions posed to me - I have 7.62x39 covered, but wanted something in .223 since (1) it has a flatter trajectory than the 7.62x39 and (2) in a SHTF situation I think .223 would be more common. I did check out the Saiga's in 7.62x39 a while back and really liked the quality, but was put off by the price of extra mags. 

Everybody here confirmed much of what I read elsewhere - the improvements to the Mini-14 helped out in the accuracy department, but still not close to an AR. Stan - you're the first to mention muzzle rise and that's an important point I had not thought about. I want my wife to be able to shoot whatever I get. 

GreenCountyPete - where'd your friend get the bargain bin AR? Also, I know that you can get AR's in 9mm - Rock River Arms makes them in 9mm, I think Bushmaster does as well.


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If you build your own AR, you can shave that price down drastically. Once you have the lower built or bought, you can trade out uppers in different calibers, different lengths, etc. I have a short 16" barreled AR, for tight quarters and it's lightness, and a heavy barreled 24" for it's tack driving ability.

If I had the inclination, I could add different calibers too, some short actioned rounds, 243, numerous 6.8 variations (270?), 5.45x39, 7.62x39, .300 whisper, .338, etc.

Complete uppers can be had for anywhere in the mid 300's on up.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Texican - how involved is it to build your own? I consider myself above average in the "mechanically inclined" department, but would be concerned about not knowing all of the tricks of the trade to get the components together safely and with an end result that would be worth the time.


----------



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Ed Norman said:


> I'd choose the AR because I believe what Col. Townsend Whelen wrote, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."
> 
> Another option, check out KelTec rifles. http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/ They have several very very interesting 223 choices, they use AR mags, some fold, they have good reviews. I love their handguns, and plan on checking out their new 30 round 22 Mag pistol next spring when it is released.


................I'm sure glad you posted that link ! I can't think of a better all around caliber than 22 mag ! The price is excellent also , wonder if they'll start taking deposits ? , fordy:shrug:


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

fordy said:


> ................I'm sure glad you posted that link ! I can't think of a better all around caliber than 22 mag ! The price is excellent also , wonder if they'll start taking deposits ? , fordy:shrug:


Isn't that something? KelTec does things their own way, or in this case, Grendel's way, but still, it's different. I sent them an email tonight because I noticed the extractor on their P32 is different from my old one and I want to know if there is a problem. I also asked about the PMR30, told them to speed it up. We'll see what they say.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Texas_Plainsman said:


> The Saiga .308 is attractive to me; however, the cost of the magazines are out of sight. If you use a tactical vest... you might have six pockets plus one in the gun, that's seven mags and you've almost spent as much as the gun costs.
> 
> I


I'd actually like one in 7.62x39 and get an adaptor for the regular AK mags.
I saw an adaptor to adapt AR mags to the .223 Saiga, but I have 3 of the 10 rounders, and I waste a lot less ammo than I do with the Bushmaster AR or the Mini 14.


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

timfromohio said:


> Texican - how involved is it to build your own? I consider myself above average in the "mechanically inclined" department, but would be concerned about not knowing all of the tricks of the trade to get the components together safely and with an end result that would be worth the time.


Really, really, easy....you can do it, no prob. Basically, it's just going through what you'd do to reassemble it after field stripping. It's no act of gunsmithing, by any means, and as I recall, no tools required except something to push a coupla' pins with. I alaways just used an unfired cartridge.

Generally, you buy an upper reciever with barrel and all intact, a lower with trigger group and whatnot pre-assembled, and a bolt carrier. Wth a little practice, you'll be able to tear that joker down and have it back together in a matter of seconds. Betcha' you can find a youtube video that'll show how to do it.

It's the common lingo in speaking of AR's, but the term "build" makes it sound like alot more of a project than it actually is.


----------



## CindyLou62 (Aug 22, 2008)

From a woman's perspective, I love all 3 of our AR-15s. We saved $300 by building the third one ourselves.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Swamp Man & Texican - where would you recommend purchasing the necessary components? There seem to be lots of places selling all this stuff and I have no idea what the reputation regarding quality, tolerances, etc. is like for any of them.

Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## Azrael (Jun 2, 2008)

You will have to buy a stripped lower from an ATF licensed dealer as that is the only part of the AR that is cosidere the firearm and has to have the background check done on it. I highly recommend Stag Arms lowers because they are very high quality and very reasonably priced, I got mine for $175 after taxes, etc. There are others out there that are cheaper and pretty decemnt quality as well.

Where to go for the rest fo the components all depends on how much you want to spend, you can get them from gun shows over the counter, but if you don't have access or want it sooner than a gun show my first two reccomendations would be M&A parts (www.m-aparts.com) or model 1 sales (www.model1sales.com) these two have plenty of options to build everything from a very plain vanilla AR up to a completely decked out tacticool version. I think model 1's website is a little easier to navigate but I ordered my kit from M&A and got it in 3 days (this in itself was amazing because it was around the time when everyone else was saying 3-6 months before they'd have anything available).

All told I built mine for under $750 and probably could have gotten it a little bit cheaper if needed. I would defiintiely recommend getting an A3 upper, this is the flat top type with a picatinny rail instead of the carry handle, they are a little more expensive but are well worth it when trying to mount optics. IMHO the carry handle either integral or removable are completely useless.

In regards to building it I would say a first timer could still easily do it in under an hour. I had a coworker assmeble mine while I watched and it took him 10-15 minutes max but he has assembled about half a dozen before so knew right where everything went.


----------



## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

every time a survival-minded person buys an AR, an angel loses its wings


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

WindowOrMirror said:


> every time a survival-minded person buys an AR, an angel loses its wings


Not a fan of the AR?

I like 'em, but it's far from my first choice for a "one and only" survival or battle rifle.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

WindowOrMirror & SwampMan - so are you guys proponents of .308 battle rifles? I've read a lot from survivalblog and also "Boston's Gun Bible" - both come to the conclusion that only .308's will do and recommend FAL's (survivalblog) and M-14's (Boston T. Party), respectively, as what everybody should have. I just can't justify the $1500 price tag for one (cheap CETME's can be had for much less, but I've read overwhelmingly bad things about them).


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

timfromohio said:


> WindowOrMirror & SwampMan - so are you guys proponents of .308 battle rifles? I've read a lot from survivalblog and also "Boston's Gun Bible" - both come to the conclusion that only .308's will do and recommend FAL's (survivalblog) and M-14's (Boston T. Party), respectively, as what everybody should have. I just can't justify the $1500 price tag for one (cheap CETME's can be had for much less, but I've read overwhelmingly bad things about them).


I dunno, man.....I generally find these types to claim to know "what everyone should have" to be keyboard warrior blowhards who are making a whole heckuva' lot of assumptions. lol.

If the firearm is reliable, has range capability for where you live, is in a reasonably common chambering, and you're proficient and comfortable with it, you're in pretty good shape, IMO.

Also depends on what kind of scenario you plan to encounter, which really, is anyone's guess. I definitely wouldn't want to be stuck with a rare or oddball chambering, but I don't buy into the scenario that we're all gonna' be running around in extensive firefights and collecting large amounts of ammunition offa' corpses. 

Given the choice between just the two, yeah, I'd go with the .308, but that's a choice based on MY situation....yours may be completely different. Being able to carry more ammo with the .223 is a legitimate attribute, but I figure if I've gotten myself into a situation where I gotta' go through 5,000 rounds, I've made some serious tactical mistakes along the way...

The .308's greater ability to incapacitate a vehicle is definitely something to be considered, too.

I live in my pine forest, my domicile being completely surrounded by acres of trees. Having had both .223's and .308's, I can tell ya' that even a medium-sized pine stops a .223 slug, while a .308 slug slides through even a large pine with the greatest of ease. Say I'm under attack by the bad guys...do I wanna' have to wait for one to pop his head out so's I can take a difficult shot with my .223, or do I wanna' just shoot through the tree and send him straight to hades with hot lead and wood chunks? Incidentally, the 7.62x39, with a FMJ, gets on through them trees pretty good, too.

I used to have an extensive arsenal, and was burglarized years ago...lost most of it. I've rebuilt it with a different way of thinking, and a traditional battle rifle ain't made into my current arsenal, just cuz I ain't seen the need. Of all the firearms I've had, if I had to bug out with just one long gun, it would probably be my .44 mag lever action. In a situation where I thought I might want a little more reach, I'd take my model 700 in 30-06, and feel plenty enough armed.

I'll admit, though, I'd sure like to pick up a nice FN FAL with a bipod one of these days, but dang sure wouldn't want to have to lug it around for miles.

In a SHTF scenario, at least where I'm at, I'll bet that a good .22 lr would probably be the most useful of all, just wouldn't want to have to take out a tank with one.

As for the CETME's, you'll find really good ones, and plenty that are absolute junk, and they're all ugly as sin. I don't have enough experience with them to tell ya' what to look for, perhaps someone else here can, though.


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

That's my thought. If you already have a 7.62 x 39, you've got the carbine world covered. Don't get a .223, get a battle rifle.

I've heard of good CETMEs. Get a bolt Ishapore Enfield in .308 (around $250)... get the SAIGA in .308 (around $350). There are options.



timfromohio said:


> WindowOrMirror & SwampMan - so are you guys proponents of .308 battle rifles? I've read a lot from survivalblog and also "Boston's Gun Bible" - both come to the conclusion that only .308's will do and recommend FAL's (survivalblog) and M-14's (Boston T. Party), respectively, as what everybody should have. I just can't justify the $1500 price tag for one (cheap CETME's can be had for much less, but I've read overwhelmingly bad things about them).


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Good post.



swamp man said:


> I dunno, man.....I generally find these types to claim to know "what everyone should have" to be keyboard warrior blowhards who are making a whole heckuva' lot of assumptions. lol.
> 
> If the firearm is reliable, has range capability for where you live, is in a reasonably common chambering, and you're proficient and comfortable with it, you're in pretty good shape, IMO.
> 
> ...


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

SwampMan - thanks for the sound advice. I can see the benefit of a .308 b/c of it's penetrating capabilities, but an honest look at where I live (quasi-suburban) it didn't make as much sense as the carbines. I can definetly see a bolt action .308 though.

TexasPlainsman - thanks for the suggestions. I had forgotten that Saiga made .308's.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> KelTec does things their own way, or in this case, Grendel's way


Unfortunately, it's never been the RELIABLE way


----------



## oldmanriver (Aug 1, 2004)

In a SHTF scenario, at least where I'm at, I'll bet that a good .22 lr would probably be the most useful of all, just wouldn't want to have to take out a tank with one.


AH a man with true wisdom !


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Unfortunately, it's never been the RELIABLE way


Wow, I've had zero problems with mine in over 10 years. I've never had one of their rifles, but haven't found a bad review yet. 

And I will try that 22 mag pistol. It's one of those things I have to have.


----------



## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

M-1 Garand from CMP. Heavy as all get out, but it'll stop people and things.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

GoldenCityMuse - I thought about that. In fact, I well within driving distance of the armory up at Camp Perry and could go up and hand select one. The problem is, at least currently, they seem to have only low or "rack grade" ones right now and even those are expensive for what you get. I've known a couple of people who have gotten them and they were quite beat up and not all that accurate. If you really know what you are doing, and have the appropriate gauges, I suppose you could pick through them and get a good one. I know nothing about that platform and wouldn't know a good one from a bad one (other than obvious stuff like condition of bore, finish, etc.).


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

timfromohio said:


> Texican - how involved is it to build your own? I consider myself above average in the "mechanically inclined" department, but would be concerned about not knowing all of the tricks of the trade to get the components together safely and with an end result that would be worth the time.


Tim, I knew less than nothing about AR's this time last year. After the election, I, like millions of other gun enthusiasts, felt 'now' was the time to get whatever firearms I thought I'd ever need. Complete guns disappeared off the market, so I had to look at 'making' one.

I went to AR15.com and a few other sites, 'learned up', found out about the uppers and lowers, how to put em together, etc. Found that Cavalry Arms had lifetime warrantied lowers available. Got some parts kits. Followed the instructions, and learned to 'really, really' follow all the helpful hints. I didn't need any special tools. Took 30 minutes to get the first lower parts kit in the lower, second took 15 minutes. Some of the spring installs should be done inside a pillowcase (so when you boo boo and the spring flies out of the hole and goes across the room, you don't have to hunt for it)...  My Cav Arms lower is synthetic, and almost weightless... it and a lower parts kit was around 200$. Picked up two uppers, one for 499 and one for 514. Have seen them more available lately.


----------



## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

i own bunches of all kinds, and for the most part the AR platform is the way to go. my thirteen year old son shoots service rifle matches with the 1903, the garand, m1 carbine, and a k31 for foreign military. He and my 10 year old daughter shoot the service rifle AR events 200, 300 and 600 yard ranges. the AR is extremely accurate for a rapid fire type rifle. parts are easily obtained, you can easily build your own, the upper/lower concept allows all types of flexibility in shooting....want a rimfire 22,,,make a 22 upper and pull two pins and attach the lower....need an a4 ,,,make an a4 upper and attach it to your lower...want a 6mm? 243? just about anything...and if you are willing to go to a a10 lower,,,,everything...almost.

the 223 has low low recoil,,,,i've got video of my little 10 year old girly, girl shooting at 600 yard ranges and putem in the black along side the Marine Shooting team,,,(she has been adopted by them).

between my son and daughter, we put about 9,000 rounds down range every year. just about all reloaded rounds from brass we "find" when we shoot at military ranges...the ONLY stoppages we have are when i have made some mistake in reloading. 

lets get this straight....a little girl can shoot an iron sighted ar at 600 yards and put all rounds in the black (we don't talk about it,,,but thats a kill) i don't know of any platform that would allow small framed men and women to do this with ammo as cheap and reloadable as the 223 or 5.56. the ar is easier to clean and fully strip than anything else i know. the mini 14 looks great....but grab the ar for the job.


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

The AR can punch holes in paper at 600 yds but it's damage is limited at 200 yds to humans. As an example, in the "blackhawk down" debacle, there were bad guys that took three hits from a .223 and kept moving. 



ace admirer said:


> i own bunches of all kinds, and for the most part the AR platform is the way to go. my thirteen year old son shoots service rifle matches with the 1903, the garand, m1 carbine, and a k31 for foreign military. He and my 10 year old daughter shoot the service rifle AR events 200, 300 and 600 yard ranges. the AR is extremely accurate for a rapid fire type rifle. parts are easily obtained, you can easily build your own, the upper/lower concept allows all types of flexibility in shooting....want a rimfire 22,,,make a 22 upper and pull two pins and attach the lower....need an a4 ,,,make an a4 upper and attach it to your lower...want a 6mm? 243? just about anything...and if you are willing to go to a a10 lower,,,,everything...almost.
> 
> the 223 has low low recoil,,,,i've got video of my little 10 year old girly, girl shooting at 600 yard ranges and putem in the black along side the Marine Shooting team,,,(she has been adopted by them).
> 
> ...


----------



## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

not talking about 55 grain bullets,,,,an 80 grain bullet is still supersonic at 600 yards...it will kill. no question. and it did at camp lejuene last year when a young Marine strayed too far from the cover of the pit wall during 600 yard fire.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks for the advice Texican and Ace. I'm now seriously considering building my own AR. Was reading on thehighroad last night getting good info. Will check out the site you mentioned this evening Texican.

TexasPlainsman - I've read a good deal about the effective range of the .223 and I think you're correct - at 600 yards, regardless of bullet variety, you'd be better off with a .308. For my application though, I don't need that range. Plus, the guys in Blackhawk Down were limited by the Geneva Convention - we're not ....

On a related topic - in researching I came across the AR-10 platform made by Rock River Arms. It accepts both metric and inch FAL mags (which are wicked cheap). Might this be the best overall battle rifle? Great platform in terms of ergonomics, stud-bolt round, and cheap mags!


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Okay. You keep your .223 and I'll stick with a .308 and .300 winmag.



Texas_Plainsman said:


> The AR can punch holes in paper at 600 yds but it's damage is limited at 200 yds to humans. As an example, in the "blackhawk down" debacle, there were bad guys that took three hits from a .223 and kept moving.


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Look at what the military is doing in Afghanistan. They can't get enough M-14s over there. The Soviets learned their lesson there the hardway too. After Afghanistan, they pretty much dumped their 5.45. They got their butts kicked by 50 year old .303s.



timfromohio said:


> Thanks for the advice Texican and Ace. I'm now seriously considering building my own AR. Was reading on thehighroad last night getting good info. Will check out the site you mentioned this evening Texican.
> 
> TexasPlainsman - I've read a good deal about the effective range of the .223 and I think you're correct - at 600 yards, regardless of bullet variety, you'd be better off with a .308. For my application though, I don't need that range. Plus, the guys in Blackhawk Down were limited by the Geneva Convention - we're not ....
> 
> On a related topic - in researching I came across the AR-10 platform made by Rock River Arms. It accepts both metric and inch FAL mags (which are wicked cheap). Might this be the best overall battle rifle? Great platform in terms of ergonomics, stud-bolt round, and cheap mags!


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Texas Plainsman - eventually (if it's still legal) I want multiples in all calibers mentioned. It makes sense to me to have at least something in .223 due to the ubiquitous nature of the round. I do agree that in an environment like Afghanistan the .308 makes a whole lot more sense due to the range that our troops are engaging within. For 100 yards or so, I still think a .223JHP would be sufficient.


----------



## Azrael (Jun 2, 2008)

With all this talk about ARs, something ot keep in mind is to get one chambered in 5.56MM NATO, NOT .223. .223 can be shot out of a 5.56 chamber but not the reverse, you WILL lose a little accuracy due to the case design difference but this is minimal. This way you will be able to shoot both commercial .223 or reloads and milsurp 5.56.


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Azrael said:


> With all this talk about ARs, something ot keep in mind is to get one chambered in 5.56MM NATO, NOT .223. .223 can be shot out of a 5.56 chamber but not the reverse, you WILL lose a little accuracy due to the case design difference but this is minimal. This way you will be able to shoot both commercial .223 or reloads and milsurp 5.56.


good call.


----------



## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

if the 5.56 is used in a strict 223. overpressures will occur. perhaps to the point of a problem. 

bushmaster uses a samm spect chamber. that will accept 223 or 5.56 with no problems nor accuracy issues....it important to civilian service rifle shooters that shoot alongside military because of the probablity of mixed ammo. 

don't get me wrong,,,i like the 308 also..but the question was ar or mini 14. and to the untrained or small of statue, the 308 has problems. the m14 or m1a has to have constant smithing (about every 600 rounds) to keep its accuracy in the top class, while the ar platform requires none until the barrel is burnt out. 

anyone been to odcmp.com for purchases of m1 or other military rifles?


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

timfromohio said:


> Texas Plainsman - eventually (if it's still legal) I want multiples in all calibers mentioned. It makes sense to me to have at least something in .223 due to the ubiquitous nature of the round. I do agree that in an environment like Afghanistan the .308 makes a whole lot more sense due to the range that our troops are engaging within. For 100 yards or so, I still think a .223JHP would be sufficient.


If you've got the funds to purchase multiples in all the chamberings mentioned, and a healthy stockpile of ammunition for all, I can't says I blame ya'.
Got a companion for your 7.62x39 yet? If not, have a look at the Ruger bolt action (can't remember the model). When the mini-30 I had was my "goto gun" for kickin' around in the woods here, I was in the market for one, but never found the bargain I was looking for. Fired from a rifle with more precision than an AK or SKS offers, and with a good handload, the 7.62x39 is really versitile and can be surprisingly accurate.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Swampman - don't have the funds to purchase all right now, but over time I want to obtain multiples. "One is none and two is one" is a good motto. Plus, I have two sons. By the time they are of age, there's a good chance that most of this stuff will be really hard to come by, so really, I'd like to get everything in triplicate!


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> And I will try that 22 mag pistol. It's one of those things I have to have


No company has ever come up with a reliable 22 mag semi auto.
There are too many inherent problems, mainly due to the case length.
If Ruger can't figure it out, I'm sure Kel Tech wont, and Grendel never had a good reputation for quality.
If yours works well, you got one of the FEW that did.
I heard enough complaints about them in the 6 years I worked at a gun shop to steer clear of them


----------



## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

ace admirer said:


> [SNIP]
> 
> anyone been to odcmp.com for purchases of m1 or other military rifles?



I have bought several. Some .22's and 3 M1's. The prices might seem high, but in reality the USD is just more & more worthless. Highly recommend it. Looking back, I could kick myself for not purchasing a whole lot more.

Also wish I'd bought a lot more ammo instead of insulators. Ah well.....

Would like to get the target airgun they have for sale, it is priced pretty good.


----------



## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

depends on what you want the rifle for... no, I am not a fan of a .223 as a primary (or only) survival situation round. The AR platform is comfortable to shoot and intrinsically accurate, but it's a lady. She's gotta be clean and well-dressed to work reliably. In battle, I want a crusty old grunt that will fight when I need him to. In close (150 yds) nothing beats the AK platform, longer ranges my personal favorite is the FAL, though I've seen (created) reliable CETMEs... but I don't recommend trying that... it's a real crap shoot.

One of my favorites, from a bench, was an AR-10. I would NOT take that into a situation in which I HAD to have a rifle work (even hunting). Under fire, I'd rather have a Springfield 1903 in .308 before an AR, even though it's a half-century older.

R


----------



## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

GoldenCityMuse said:


> I have bought several. Some .22's and 3 M1's. The prices might seem high, but in reality the USD is just more & more worthless. Highly recommend it. Looking back, I could kick myself for not purchasing a whole lot more.
> 
> Also wish I'd bought a lot more ammo instead of insulators. Ah well.....
> 
> Would like to get the target airgun they have for sale, it is priced pretty good.


if you are looking at the 853 air rifle,,,,they have rebuilt/reconditioned ones for $75.00 with new apture sights installed...not advertised,,,but they let the word out to competation clubs about three months ago...

yeah,,i wished i had purchesed several of the H & R M12 for $200.....the price of the m1 carbines are high,,,but have you seen the price of a carbines from dealers.....anywhere from 800 to 1200.....i guess too much colector value...


----------



## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Another option is the MGI(bangor,me)lower-it takes multiple mag wells so you can put a 7.62x39 upper on and use AK mags,a 7.62x51 upper and use M14 mags or the poodle shooter 5.56 upper,etc.Very high quality.I prefer a klatch for closeup and a 7.62 for anything past 100yds.I have an AR and it's great for varmints.I have had relatives return from Afghanistan and say they dumped way too many rounds into Taliban(sorry nevada,marvella)to be impressed by the round.My nephew"borrowed"an M14 and was much happier...All this being said-if you can't hit what you're aiming at,it does'nt matter.


----------



## TheMrs (Jun 11, 2008)

I asked my husband, he owns both, and he said it is like arguing "Ford vs. Chevy", its just a matter of opinion. His advice.....own both. You never know what parts and accessories will be more obtainable once they are banned, so have both available. You can't have too many options in a worse case scenario.


----------



## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

you're right....can't have too many rifles....or at least thats what i try to convince my wife of.....sure am glad my kids took on shooting as a sport...


----------



## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

Not quite Ford vs Chevy.

The Mini-14 has substantial challenges for sustained fire which is solved with the AR-15. After the barrel heats up (which is pretty quick) the Mini-14 becomes minute-of pie plate at 100 yards. Not acceptable battle accuracy. With all of the options, configurations, aftermarket upgrades, and ability to stock spare, interchangeable parts, the AR-15 wins hands down. Just keep it clean and maintain it. 

Now if you graduate from the mosquito biter 5.56 category and move to the MBR, the FN FAL is king. Ease of use, maintenance is a breeze, no small parts. And they put real bullets down range.

In my situation the AK platform dopes me no good. Open terrain with .30-30 ballistics won't hunt here. 

The AR platform allows cheap(er), smaller ammo with greater capacities. Something to consider if you may be bugging out. 

But if you mean business, then FN FAL. Well worth the pain of carrying.


----------



## margoC (Jul 26, 2007)

CindyLou62 said:


> From a woman's perspective, I love all 3 of our AR-15s. We saved $300 by building the third one ourselves.


I am another ar15 loving women! I have "old" eyes but can shoot an ok group out to 100 yards with the arpeture sites of the ar. I have an eotech on my M4gery though. 

I don't find them that hard to keep clean. And they are nice and light, in case I have to carry it or something. Living in a hurricane zone gives one pause for thought.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

7.62 fmj - I would love to have a .308 battle rifle and, after reading Boston T. Party's "Gun Bible", almost convinced myself I needed one. But then I question whether or not I'm being realistic in my needs - he points out the .308's ability to (1) punch through cover and (2) reach out and touch someone at distances well past those achievable by a .223 (well, I guess the .223 could get out there, but would have substantially less energy left as compared to the .308). Then I look at where I live (NEOhio, not out west somewhere where I'd actually have the occasion to shoot long distances) and think what are the chances that I'm in some extended firefight, shooting zombies hiding behind trees, etc. Not likely at all. I'm far more likey to loose my job or face some financial hardship. If I hit the lottery, I have a dozen of each! But, since that's not likely either I'm trying to be realistic and practical - I could get a Mini-14, bunch of factory mags, and some ammo for the cost of a decent AR. 

Who knows, tomorrow I may well have convinced myself that an M-14 is the only way to go, or maybe a Rock River Arms AR-10 that takes inch and metric FAL mags, or maybe an M4-gry will do, ....

margoC - I appreciate the input. The ability of my wife to effectively use whatever I get is a key factor. I don't think she'd be all that happy with any .308 caliber!


----------



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

At today's Springfield, Missouri gunshow, one vendor had ARs for $599.00.



timfromohio said:


> 7.62 fmj - I would love to have a .308 battle rifle and, after reading Boston T. Party's "Gun Bible", almost convinced myself I needed one. But then I question whether or not I'm being realistic in my needs - he points out the .308's ability to (1) punch through cover and (2) reach out and touch someone at distances well past those achievable by a .223 (well, I guess the .223 could get out there, but would have substantially less energy left as compared to the .308). Then I look at where I live (NEOhio, not out west somewhere where I'd actually have the occasion to shoot long distances) and think what are the chances that I'm in some extended firefight, shooting zombies hiding behind trees, etc. Not likely at all. I'm far more likey to loose my job or face some financial hardship. If I hit the lottery, I have a dozen of each! But, since that's not likely either I'm trying to be realistic and practical - I could get a Mini-14, bunch of factory mags, and some ammo for the cost of a decent AR.
> 
> Who knows, tomorrow I may well have convinced myself that an M-14 is the only way to go, or maybe a Rock River Arms AR-10 that takes inch and metric FAL mags, or maybe an M4-gry will do, ....
> 
> margoC - I appreciate the input. The ability of my wife to effectively use whatever I get is a key factor. I don't think she'd be all that happy with any .308 caliber!


----------



## MinerJohn (Jul 2, 2007)

I built my AR, all new parts for $650.00. I'll take it over the mini 14 anyday.






timfromohio said:


> The Mosin Nagant thread got me to thinking about rifles again.
> 
> Any opinions/experiences out there regarding the AR platform vs. a Ruger Mini-14?
> 
> ...


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

timfromohio said:


> 7.62 fmj - I would love to have a .308 battle rifle and, after reading Boston T. Party's "Gun Bible", almost convinced myself I needed one. But then I question whether or not I'm being realistic in my needs - he points out the .308's ability to (1) punch through cover and (2) reach out and touch someone at distances well past those achievable by a .223 (well, I guess the .223 could get out there, but would have substantially less energy left as compared to the .308). Then I look at where I live (NEOhio, not out west somewhere where I'd actually have the occasion to shoot long distances) and think what are the chances that I'm in some extended firefight, shooting zombies hiding behind trees, etc. Not likely at all. I'm far more likey to loose my job or face some financial hardship. If I hit the lottery, I have a dozen of each! But, since that's not likely either I'm trying to be realistic and practical - I could get a Mini-14, bunch of factory mags, and some ammo for the cost of a decent AR.
> 
> Who knows, tomorrow I may well have convinced myself that an M-14 is the only way to go, or maybe a Rock River Arms AR-10 that takes inch and metric FAL mags, or maybe an M4-gry will do, ....
> 
> margoC - I appreciate the input. The ability of my wife to effectively use whatever I get is a key factor. I don't think she'd be all that happy with any .308 caliber!


Even at ranges under 100 yds, the larger chambering is still gonna' offer advantages in some cases....even minimal cover and protection keeps the enemy safe from your .223.

With the mini 14, you'll have mediocre (or poor) accuracy at 100yds (a base you already have covered with your 7.62x39), but with less killing power, so would acquiring one really improve your defenses all that much?....just food for thought. What these fellas are telling you about how bad that barrell noodles as it heats up is soooo true. Mine would start to "walk" after the second round, and by the tenth shot, be absoutely all over the place.

A statement we hear all too often in regaurds to the AR and mini goes something like "Just keep it clean and lubricated, and it'll work fine"......That's all well and good for a benchrest gun or a weekend plinker, but it ain't an acceptable level of reliability for something I'm going to stake my life on. If you're gonna' be using much of the varnish-coated Russian ammo (and many do 'cuz it tends to be the cheapest), you'd better be prepared to scrub and scrub often, cuz it really fouls up both the AR and the Mini.

Is the 7.62x39 the only firearm you have now? If so, you might be better served to consider what purchase would best plug a hole in your arsenal, or at least that's how I think of it. Do you have a heavy downrange hitter? Even in brush country and heavy forest, like where I live, we all have highways and Ag land that's open enough to make the possibility of a long shot a reality. Got a reliable center-fire (preferably a 9mm at bare minimum) handgun? Got a good .22 lr?...could be your most useful firearm in a survival situation, and you can stock a grip of ammo for very little money. How 'bout a shotty?...no defense arsenal is complete without one.

Sorry for the drift, just lookin' to confuse your decision as much as possible.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

SwampMan - I have my other bases covered ...

I'm missing the heavy downrange hitter. Maybe a Mosin Nagant will do - the ammo cost is less than half of a .308 and the rounds seem comparable.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> the rounds seem comparable


The ballistics are similar, but theres a much wider variety of loaded ammo available for the 308, and much better guns also


----------



## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The ballistics are similar, but theres a much wider variety of loaded ammo available for the 308, and much better guns also


Yep, and it's obviously waaaaaay easier to find stateside.

Also, if you want a scope on a Nagant, you've gotta' get the bolt turned down, and unless you're on the short side, will probably want different furniture, as the length of pull is way short, or at least always felt so to me.

....and the trigger sucks.

....and the safety sucks.

By the time all these things are corrected, you're better off finding a reasonable price on a used rifle of superior quality and ergonomics.


----------

