# Stock market day trading thread



## willow_girl

Rather than continuing to hijack the other thread (my bad) I figured I should start my own. 

Thought I'd report my experiences, good and bad, for the edification of others. 

For those who didn't read the other thread, I trade on eTrade. 

February got off to a good start. Yesterday I bought 100 shares of Westlake Chemical Co. (WLK) for $38.74. I found this stock while scanning the earnings calendar over the weekend. I believe it reports its earnings during the second week of February. I liked the fact one analyst noted that it has perhaps the strongest fundamentals in the industry (something to do with vinyl manufacturing). The stock was off nearly $6 a share since early January, and it had taken a $1+ hit in the big meltdown at the end of last week. I figured it was due to come back up in the short term, probably before it reported.

I set my sell (as I usually do) for $1 per share above the purchase price, and it sold at 10:44 a.m., less than 24 hours later! Net profit $80.


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## okiemom

Dont the short term cap gains kill your profit? How long hav eyou day traded? I watch for mid /long term investments.


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## AnnieinBC

I trade most days. I use charts to make my buys and often don't even know what the company does.

I live in Canada and use Questrade. Not as cheap commissions as the US brokerages, but I still do OK overall.


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## willow_girl

It's at $40.80 now; I may have to kill myself. :hysterical:

I let my husband take care of the tax angle; it's what he does for a living. He tells me what I owe periodically, when it's time to file quarterly statements. I work 1099, too, so there usually is weeping and gnashing of teeth. LOL


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## Pam6

I have not got up enough nerve to day trade yet. I have done it twice with a stock that I would not mind keeping for the long term. 
Right now I only have $200 in my account to spare and it seems like that is not much to really make a go of it.


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## willow_girl

OK, I asked DH about the tax thing. He said short-term gains are taxed at your overall rate. Say you're in the 12% tax bracket; you pay 12%. Long-term (over a year) gains are a flat 15%. 

I am really happy to see some other gals doing this!


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## clovis

I'll be watching this thread with interest. 

I have traded some in the past, but haven't for a while. I just don't have the money to be trading, but wish I did!!!! I watch the market every day, especially about 10 stocks and the price of silver. I do a ton of imaginary trading, LOL.

Willow, I've read many of your posts in the past about your trading activities, and I think you have one great aspect...you don't seem to get greedy. I think this is a fundamental key to successful and profitable trading.

I've watched two people day trade for many years:

Guy #1: This guy has traded for years, and is very conservative and calculated on his buys and sells. He really only trades good, solid, well managed companies. His trick is cutting off a little bit of profit on every trade. He tries to make 10%-15% on those trades. This guy has become incredibly wealthy over time, and is a millionaire several times over.

Guy #2: This guy traded for several years too, on money that he inherited. His trick was to try to make every last cent he possibly could on penny stocks that other people were "pumping and dumping". If there was another $10 bucks to be made before the plummet, he waited it out. I'll never forget the day that he was in a stock and had a profit that was larger than what my wife brought home every two weeks. "Sell that stock!!!! Get out NOW!!!" I proclaimed. He refused on the grounds "that I lost $200 last week because I sold too early." He said "You just didn't understand how the market works". Within an hour, he not only lost all the profit, but also $400 of his purchase price. 

Oh, by the way, Guy #1 is still trading every day, just as a hobby. I'd say he makes at least $10,000 a month. Guy #2 changes the subject anytime the stock market is brought up, and is rumored to have eventually lost the entirety of his $100,000 inheritance. I know for a fact that he lost $30,000 in one trade. 

Keep the posts on your progress coming, Willow. I'll be living vicariously through you!!!


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## AnnieinBC

Yes greed kills for sure....it's awfully hard to find both the very top and the very bottom of a stock's pattern. 

I try and find a spot on the chart when it has bottomed and is now turning back up. I never get in at the bottom, that can be like catching a falling knife.


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## willow_girl

I'm that contradiction in terms: an exceedingly cautious daytrader! ound:

DH likes to torment me by calling me periodically to tell me how much a stock went up _after_ I sold it! 

I really don't mind, though. I'm like your #1 guy, Clovis -- content to take small nibbles. Also, I don't panic and sell when the market has a bad day. (Actually, that's when I tend to BUY! Like I tell my husband, "Stocks are on sale today!"  ) I like to pick up stocks I've been watching awhile, when the slump is across-the-board and has nothing to do with the performance of the particular company.

Thus far, I haven't been compelled to sell anything at a loss. 

WLK went all the way up to $40.85 yesterday, but it's dropped .70 cents today, so I'm not sorry I got out when I did. I had to leave for a few hours, so I decided I'd rather sell and lock in my profit in case the international situation took a turn for the worse and sparked a rout. :shrug:


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## groundhogII

Willow girl I wish you the best in your trading activities.However,what you descibed above is not daytrading.Daytraders rarely hold a position overnight and they use level II trading platforms to skim modest gains(hopefully)throughout the trading day.

It appears from your post,that what you are doing is called swing trading.I've done some of that myself.I was doing very well at this until my bank account was wiped out by a medical situation. 
At the moment, the only trading I'm doing is writing covered calls on stock I own.


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## Reptyle

So Willow is a swinger, eh?


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## willow_girl

Works for me!


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## willow_girl

Now here is an interesting tidbit. I'm not sure how far back he searched, but my husband said the market has never finished down in the third year of a presidency, and in fact, the average increase has been 17 percent. Based on those calculations, he advised investing in an index fund or ETF that tracks the market. 

My response was, "Aww, but where's the fun in THAT?" 

It's food for thought, though!


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## Reptyle

I used to track BUD constantly back in the day...It moved like clockwork...lot of money to be made off of it trading options...wish I could find another stock like that.


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## AnnieinBC

NRF is a REIT that pays .40/share divvy and it is not too expensive of a stock. I like to play it as a chart play and save free shares each time. A nice way to build up some nice divvies over time.

Willowgirl, I have read that too about the market/presidency


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## Halfway

I trade. 

Futures provide a significant decrease in capital gains tax burden. Accounting is much easier and no WASH RULE as with stocks. That rule is a killer if you are not careful, as you cannot claim the loss if you re-enter the trade within 30 days.

ES (E mini future) is $12.50 per tick which is a quarter point ($50 per full point).

ES is the grand arena, the World Series of Poker. 

FOREX has it's merits as well, but stay away from spread brokers. They will eat you alive.

Great thread idea!!


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## tarbe

I am a total chicken....I have had 4% gains in each of the last three years.

No boom, no bust. I feel great when the market is down, and feel like crap when it is up (like lately).

At 53, I fear jumping even partway back in....but I know I should have roughly 50% of my 401k in equities. I only have about 1% in right now!

Yes, I am a chicken.........perhaps I will just live vicariously through you brave souls here.


Tim


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## clovis

AnnieinBC said:


> NRF is a REIT that pays .40/share divvy and it is not too expensive of a stock. I like to play it as a chart play and save free shares each time. A nice way to build up some nice divvies over time.


Ah, dividend reinvestment. I wish Scottrade offered DR. It is about the only real negative that I can find with my use of them.


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## willow_girl

WLK went up another $1.96 today. It's now over $42. I may need medication for my angst ... ound:


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## Micheal

As a person that does not only invest in stocks, but also trades in stocks, this has been an interesting thread. And to the uninformed, yes there is a difference between investing and trading, a very big difference......
Investing takes time doing the research into the company, research in the industry, research in their markets, and researching related pros and cons of the competition, etc. Oh did I mention doing research?
Trading takes enough time to have a company be mentioned by a comrade-in-arms (maybe by your hairdresser/barber), because the stock price is rising or fallen, maybe you like their stock symbol, or maybe it passed a stock screen via MSN, Morningstar, or a host of other places that offer free stock screens or just maybe you have (or had) a hunch that this is the one..........
In any event how the stock market is played by an individual is a matter of personal choice. How a person does (wins/losses) is also a matter of the amount of noise a person may or may not make. 
But again, it is interesting, maybe even refreshing, to know that there are persons that want to comment on the subject - me included....... :icecream:


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## Halfway

I believe think or swim will allow a person without an account to run a "paper trade" simulation to test ideas. 

Interactive Brokers and Scottrade have paper trading ability if you have an account.

Scottrade is good as a "per trade" broker. $7 and some really great tools. Especially the Elite Platform.

Sogo trade is $3 per trade, but has very few tools and charts.

Interactive brokers is per share. $.005 per share equates to $5 for 1000 shares. Minimum I belive is $2.00. Futures are $2 per contract. Forex is per trade and not a spread.

As with any form of "controlled gambling", putting probabilities and statistics in your corner is critical. House odds and brokers fees are a stacked deck to the uneducated, inexperienced, or emotionally driven.

Best of trading.


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## Guest

I mess around with futures, mostly crude oil and the Russell 2000. I'd much rather be doing almost anything else. I've had some really good years, and some pretty bad ones. I learned what works, and usually trade one or two times a month. BUT, I use to trade all day every day. When I do make a trade now, I usually do it around 5:00-7:00 AM before any news comes out that will set futures to hopping all around.


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## willow_girl

Zong, the timing thing is interesting. My husband (who is home all day and watches the market much more closely than I'm able) says lately it's been running up as soon as it opens, then stagnating or falling around 10-11 a.m. He likes to buy during that little lull. 

I have not done anything with options or futures yet and would appreciate any information you experienced traders would like to share!


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## Guest

The most important thing I can tell you about futures is to make a set of rules and abide by them religiously. The most important one is to set a stop and keep it. so, for instance, if you decide that if your position goes against you a hundred dollars, thats all you can stand, then set your stop accordingly. Many, many times it will go against you a hundred dollars, then turn and go your way a thousand. Problem is, once it goes against you a hundred bucks, you'll consider an opportunity to get out even as the holy grail, and thats likely what you'll do. over and over. On the other hand, if it goes against you a hundred, then a hundred more, then a hundred more, you'll be thinking, "If I was only down a hundred bucks, I could handle that kind of loss, now I'm down 300 and I can't take a hit like that, so..........I'll wait it out" Next thing you know, you're down a thousand bucks and wondering just exactly how stupid you were to not have used a stop.And that's where you'll exit, at the most dismal point. During that thousand dollar decline, you could have taken the hundred dollar stop out, and reversed your trade, and ended up plus $800( 900 with the reversal of direction, less the 100 loss)
On the other hand, if the trade goes your way, you can move your stop up as you go along. Once your trade is up $200, you can set your stop at +100, knowing that whatever happens, you've got a profit locked in. As you study charts, you'll note that different trading vehicles have different patterns, for instance at one time, ES would usually make a 10 point move. So, as you approach the "usual" maximum move, you'd tighten up your stop, knowing that if it stalls, you will maximize your profits.
using rules based trading takes a lot of the excitement out of the process, if you find indicators that on average predict a $250 move, you'll realize that if 1 out of 4 of your trades fail, and you take the hundred dollar loss, versus 3 gains of average 250, you will be up $650 per 4 trades, on average. So, following the rules of your own making, you don't have to fret too much when you take that losing trade, its part of the formula. Agonizing about whether or not to stay in a trade just delays your exit until its too painful to deal with. 
Learn to read charts. Stay away from news driven moments(jobs report, oil inventory, etc) First thing the big boys do is knock out the stops both ways. If it just ain't your day, take your losses and come back tomorrow.
My favorite options strategy now is a box spread. Because everything is computerized, its kind of hard to find one now. In a box spread, you buy and sell both calls and puts at 2 different strikes. for instance,
" Buy To Open 1 contract of Jan $60 Call at $2
Sell To Open 1 contract of Jan $50 Call at $8
Sell To Open 1 contract of Jan $60 Put at $8
Buy To Open 1 contract of Jan $50 Put at $3
Net Credit = [($8 - $2) + ($8 - $3)] x 100 = $1100.00 per position
Expiration Value = (60 - 50) x 100 = $1000 per position
Maximum profit = $1000 - $900 = $100 per position "
Note that no loss is possible. You *will* get $100 profit for a $1100 investment. 
Usually only found in the excitement surrounding an upcoming news event.
I also liked taking a straddle or a strangle ahead of a known news event, when the stock has historically shown a tendency to move well beyond the cost of the entry position. Remember, after the news is out, there will not be much premium any more, so you need a big enough move in one direction to cover your cost for both sides.
I've had some success selling puts short, but only if I actually wouldn't mind owning the stock at the put price. Back when shipping stocks paid huge dividends, I never minded having a short put on FRO(dividend was $10 annually at one point when stock was in the $40's) exercised against me. I've also bought stocks for the dividend then sold the (covered) calls for a double bump. Using the same stock(FRO) which now only pays a dollar dividend, and extrapolating for a year into the future, selling at the strike covered calls should net about $120 a month, or $1440 a year, add in the $100 dividend, that works out to $1540, or 59% profit annualized on your initial(at yesterdays close) $2615 investment.


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## mrpink

I'm glad to see this thread. I have never traded stocks but have studied them for years. this year I'm going to open a small account and see how I do. I'll be watching this thread for sure


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## willow_girl

Zong, I'm not sure I followed all of that! Some of it was a bit over my head. Futures scare me a little! But then, I'm still relatively new at this. 

Good luck, Mr. Pink! Please share your experiences with us; I figure we all can learn from each other here. 

I had some free time yesterday so I made my picks for next week. Found two stocks I like, and will have JUST enough unallocated funds in the account to buy both. Wheeeee!


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## AverageJo

OK folks, a long time ago I tried to study futures trading. Even did a bit of paper trading and was pretty good.... on paper. But that was over 20 years ago! I'm a bit more cautious now but would like to get back into it. Does anyone do commodity futures trading and willing to give me a refresher course? Suggestions on what broker to use or software to purchase? I'm sure things have changed since I last looked at this. 

Not sure if it would be applicable to commodity trading, but my parents used to belong to a stock club where everyone would come to the table with stocks they were looking at and discuss the pros and cons to each. Could something like this be done with commodities? Basically a discussion as to whether pork bellies is showing signs of a 1-2-3 pattern or something like that? 

I'd also like to know more about this box trading! That's new.

Very interesting thread!! Can't wait to read more. And to get back into paper trades, too.


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## willow_girl

Perhaps Zong will come back and share more!


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## willow_girl

OK! My stock picks for the week are AGCO and ALLT. I'm cutting it a bit close, as both of these companies report tomorrow, but I liked them so much that I decided to take a chance!

AGCO has good, strong fundamentals and is down about $3 from its peak in January. I figure there is room for it to come up a buck. 

ALLT appears to be "hot" right now (it was up about 50 cents a share on Friday, and went up even more in after-hours trading). An analyst had some good things to say about it back in December: http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2010/12/29/top-picks-2011-allot-communications-allt/

Five minutes 'til the opening bell! 

Edited to add: Whew, they have both jumped more than 50 cents in the first 20 minutes of trading! Looks like it's going to be an interesting day ... 

Edited again to add: Well, goodbye, AGCO, it was nice knowin' ya! 

I set my sell, as I always do, at $1 a share over the purchase price, and at some point while I was in the kitchen baking raisin cookies, it hit the limit. GONE! So I picked up $80 after my trading fees ... not bad for a morning's work! 

ALLT is hovering at right around the price I paid for it, though, darn it! 

I don't have a lot tied up in it, though, so I won't be too upset if I end up having to hang on to it for awhile.


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## clovis

Nice play on the AGCO!!!!! WTG!!!!!

Is AGCO the farm equipment company?


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## AshleyB

Willow, I tried to pm you, but your box is full. Could you recommend some good resources for learning about this form of trading? I have been wanting to learn how to do it for years, but never have known where to go for good information. Books, blogs, websites......how did you learn what you know?


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## Halfway

AshleyB said:


> Willow, I tried to pm you, but your box is full. Could you recommend some good resources for learning about this form of trading? I have been wanting to learn how to do it for years, but never have known where to go for good information. Books, blogs, websites......how did you learn what you know?


Ashley, I'll try and help.

stockfetcher.com this will blow your mind with scans, backtesting, and the forum is incredible.

marketwatch.com research

finviz.com research

mypivots.com tech analysis

google "bullkowski chart patterns" for his educational info on identifying patterns and their related probabilities.

americanbulls.com. Note, I would not use their "picks", but they have a really good section on candlesticks and how to intrerpret them.

thinkorswim.com setup a demo to "paper trade"

elitetrader.com the biggy in trading forums. Plenty of knuckleheads on there, but a large share of helpful and experienced folks. I hang out in the "ES Journal" thread

Thta's just a start and only a few of the arsenal of what is out there. I am sure more folks will chime in as well.

Best of success to you. We are in a bull run, so trading is very easy to long and sell a bit later. This pulls in many retail traders and the market has a way of fleecing them when the time is right. Think late nineties until the dot com bubble burst.


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## AshleyB

Halfway said:


> Ashley, I'll try and help.
> 
> stockfetcher.com this will blow your mind with scans, backtesting, and the forum is incredible.
> 
> marketwatch.com research
> 
> finviz.com research
> 
> mypivots.com tech analysis
> 
> google "bullkowski chart patterns" for his educational info on identifying patterns and their related probabilities.
> 
> americanbulls.com. Note, I would not use their "picks", but they have a really good section on candlesticks and how to intrerpret them.
> 
> thinkorswim.com setup a demo to "paper trade"
> 
> elitetrader.com the biggy in trading forums. Plenty of knuckleheads on there, but a large share of helpful and experienced folks. I hang out in the "ES Journal" thread
> 
> Thta's just a start and only a few of the arsenal of what is out there. I am sure more folks will chime in as well.
> 
> Best of success to you. We are in a bull run, so trading is very easy to long and sell a bit later. This pulls in many retail traders and the market has a way of fleecing them when the time is right. Think late nineties until the dot com bubble burst.


Where should I start? I have a very basic knowledge of doing the kinds of trades Willow referenced, but everything I learned was about eight years ago, so I know that I need to brush up on that knowledge too. Thank you for all of those references!


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## willow_girl

> Nice play on the AGCO!!!!! WTG!!!!!
> 
> Is AGCO the farm equipment company?


Thank you! And yes it is! I figure with grain futures so high, the equipment manufacturers should be getting some play. I will probably go down the list of comparable companies and pick up another after my funds settle. I did something similar last month with a tech stock I was eying ... but I feared it had already made its run ... so I bought 3 similar companies, one right after the other, and flipped each of them for a profit.

I got antsy and dumped ALLT too! I don't know what I was thinking, buying just 100 shares of a $14 stock ... that's not really the way to make a buck, LOL! I mean, what are the odds it will go up 20 percent in the short term? D'oh! But I didn't have enough money in the account to buy any more, and it would have taken too long to transfer some in from a bank account, so I bought it anyway! And when I came to my senses, sold it ... but hey, I made $20 (after fees) on the deal, for an even $100 today! I am not going to complain about that, not one little bit. 

Now I'll be sidelined for a couple of days until eTrade transfers the proceeds from the sales into my account. Ho hum! 

Ashley, sorry I missed your PM! In answer to your question about getting started, my husband set up my eTrade account and showed me the basics ... I started out buying stock he already had or recommended. One of the first ones I bought had an earnings report coming out, and got a nice boost in the run-up. That caught my attention, and I started looking for other companies that were due to report, then using eTrade's "Research" function to analyze them. (I also Google the company name and look for news on it before buying.)

I almost always follow the earnings calendar, although sometimes (as I mentioned above) I'll pick a comparable company (these are listed within the Research tab). I try to find companies with solid fundamentals, especially ones that have been trending upward but aren't quite at their peak in the 52-week cycle. I look for stocks in the $30-50 range that I think have the potential to go up $1 in the short term. Then I take the money and run!!!


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## Reptyle

Willow, are you using stop, limit, or stop-limit orders?


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## willow_girl

Limit orders. 

Because I'm away from the computer most of the day, I usually set my sell as soon as I make a purchase. That way, it'll sell automatically if it hits the target price. (You can always go back and change your limit if you decide to hold out for more money or just dump something!)


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## clovis

Is there a cost on your trading platform for setting limits? 

Do most platforms charge for limits, or are they free?

Thanks!
Clovis
(The guy who is living vicariously through the traders posting on this thread.)


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## Reptyle

willow_girl said:


> Limit orders.
> 
> Because I'm away from the computer most of the day, I usually set my sell as soon as I make a purchase. That way, it'll sell automatically if it hits the target price. (You can always go back and change your limit if you decide to hold out for more money or just dump something!)


Kewl.

Remember, Limit order guarantee price, but not execution.

Stop orders, guarantee execution, but not price.

Market makers will only fill Limit orders after all Market orders have been filled. If the stock is heavily traded, this shouldn't be too much of a concern.

@Clovis: Back in the day, there used to be an extra charge for any order other than a Market, but nowadays, most firms don't charge extra for Limit, Stop or Stop-Limit orders.


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## willow_girl

> Is there a cost on your trading platform for setting limits?


No charge on eTrade.



> Do most platforms charge for limits, or are they free?


I've only used eTrade, so I dunno!


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## Guest

I use IB. The commissions are 50 cents per 100 shares, with a dollar minimum. You can buy 100 shares and the commission is 1.00. You can buy 200 shares and the commission is 1.00. You can buy 400 shares and the commission is 2.00. Above a thousand shares, and there is a slightly different pricing structure making commissions slightly cheaper. It doesn't matter the nature of your order, limit, stop, market, etc. However, there is a cancelled order fee of 12 cents, BUT every 24 cents in actual commissions will negate a cancelled order fee.
Options fees are 70 cents, with a minimum of $1.00. So, one contract may be $1.00, and two would be $1.40.
Futures vary by vehicle. Most are $2.00 per contract per trade. 
The big difference is that using IB, I can make 10 trades of 200 shares each for $10.00 as opposed to E-trades fees for the same trades of $100.00


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## AverageJo

Ok, who or what is IB? Their fees sound a lot more reasonable than Etrade. Sometimes using acronyms does not help those of us new to the subject. Thanks.


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## Guest

Interactive Brokers


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## Halfway

AverageJo said:


> Ok, who or what is IB? Their fees sound a lot more reasonable than Etrade. Sometimes using acronyms does not help those of us new to the subject. Thanks.


I use interactive brokers.


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## featherbottoms

How would ya'll compare eTrade, Interactive Brokers and Sharebuilder for "real-time" trades?

I have a Sharebuilder account and "real-time" trades are $9.95 per trade, regardless of the type trade or number of shares.

Edited to add - never mind. I took a few minutes to look around and my Sharebuilder is comparable to eTrade in price but not at all like Interactive Brokers. And since there's not a lot of difference in Sharebuilder and eTrade I'll just stick with what I have. I might start paying more attention to it though after reading this thread.


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## mrpink

clovis said:


> Is there a cost on your trading platform for setting limits?
> 
> Do most platforms charge for limits, or are they free?
> 
> Thanks!
> Clovis
> (The guy who is living vicariously through the traders posting on this thread.)



I stopped by a scottrade office today and had a chat with them. limit and stop orders are included in the $7 per trade for online trades


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I think instead of starting another thread about this, I will ask here. I know nothing about stocks, but for many years, I sit back and listen to reports of this and that, and watch how businesses make money hand over fist, and I figure, their stock prices keep going up, like apple and wal-mart, for example. Should have invested a long time ago. I have always wondered even, how to buy stock. No clue. Not even sure where to look to learn about it.

Now I run across this thread, and it seems this is the sort of thing I always wonder about. But as I read through this, my eyeballs are popping out, because I am reading a foreign language here. 

What I gather, is there are many websites where you can buy stocks, all have some sort of fees, and you can sell stocks also. But if you choose to buy a stock, and then sell, who buys it from you? What if no one wants it? Are you stuck? How do you get your money? Are lots of people on this site making lots of money from this sort of thing?
Is it worth all the trouble?

I see there have been several mentions of eTrade. I will go there and read their info, but I am afraid. I remember when I tried to read up on how to sell on eBay. There was so much fine print, I thought my head was going to pop off.


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## Tobster

Another option for a broker and trading platform is Tradestation. The rates for stock is about the same as zong mentioned for IB. A penny a share with a small exchange fee. Futures are $4.70 round turn. I assume the same pattern daytrading rules remain in effect for all brokerages clearing stocks. If you are going to trade an inexpensive stock and take a position of 1000 shares or more, it is cheaper to use the flat rate of a Merrill or eTrade.
Someone in an earlier post mentioned the training involved. That is a VERY difficult problem to sort out. . . there are a lot of scam artist out there who will try to sell you a sure fire system. Believe me, there is NO HOLY GRAIL for trading. Honestly, it is mostly mental and learning how to manage risk and being disciplined.


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## clovis

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I think instead of starting another thread about this, I will ask here. I know nothing about stocks, but for many years, I sit back and listen to reports of this and that, and watch how businesses make money hand over fist, and I figure, their stock prices keep going up, like apple and wal-mart, for example. Should have invested a long time ago. I have always wondered even, how to buy stock. No clue. Not even sure where to look to learn about it.
> 
> Now I run across this thread, and it seems this is the sort of thing I always wonder about. But as I read through this, my eyeballs are popping out, because I am reading a foreign language here.
> 
> What I gather, is there are many websites where you can buy stocks, all have some sort of fees, and you can sell stocks also. But if you choose to buy a stock, and then sell, who buys it from you? What if no one wants it? Are you stuck? How do you get your money? Are lots of people on this site making lots of money from this sort of thing?
> Is it worth all the trouble?
> 
> I see there have been several mentions of eTrade. I will go there and read their info, but I am afraid. I remember when I tried to read up on how to sell on eBay. There was so much fine print, I thought my head was going to pop off.


Setting up an account and trading stocks is truly easier than it sounds.

I strongly suggest you look at Scottrade. I've been more than pleased with them. 

One thing I like the most is that they have a local office just 10 minutes away. This made me feel like I had some control if something went awry with my account. I could show up and have a live person to work with to get it fixed!

It seems that Scottrade had a lower minimum for opening up an account. This was huge for me since I didn't have big bucks to open an account with some of the firms.

At my local Scottrade office, they are SUPER-DUPER helpful when answering questions and are wonderful teachers.

Also, don't let all the talk cause your "head to pop off". It really is pretty simple, and most of us are talking about different strategies we use to play the markets.

These different strategies that people have with the market is kind of like people that own cows. Some keep cows for milk, some raise cows from calves for personal meat, some raise show cows only, some feed out bottle calves until they hit 400 pounds, and some, like my uncle, buy calves only when they are cheap, and sell them within a few weeks for a fast profit.

Everyone in the example intend to make money, just like those who trade stocks.

My personal strategy is to buy top quality stock that pays great dividends, and hold the stock long term. I don't have much money to put into the market, so I have to make sure that what I have is invested well. I have traded stocks in the past, and did VERY well for what I was working with.

Does this help?


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I don't know. I just read all the intro pages on etrade, and I don't really understand any of it. Their first page says something to the effect of super easy for the first time investor, this is what we offer, blah, blah... I don't even understand most of the terminology. It's no wonder I never looked into it further.


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## clovis

mrpink said:


> I stopped by a scottrade office today and had a chat with them. limit and stop orders are included in the $7 per trade for online trades


Thanks!!!! I really like my local Scottrade office.


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## mrpink

lonelyfarmgirl I have followed stocks off and on for about 18 years including reading quite a few books on the subject so I know some of the terminology for the simpler trades. I always said I was going to set up an account but never did for various reasons.
This year I'm gonna start buying and selling at least until I run out of money. I have decided to use scottrade for two main reasons one being that I only need $500 to start an account. once the account is started there is no minimum balance to maintain the account. online trades are only $7.

this is my plan. start the account at the minumin $500. look for stocks priced between $1 and $5 that looks to be solid investments for the short term. before I buy I will determine at what price I will sell at. I'm not looking for a home run stock. just looking to make a few bucks here and there to build up my account and learn. I am prepared if I lose my $500 to accept it as the cost of my learning. one of those hope for the best but prepare for the worst situations. if things go well then in the future I would like to withdraw my $500 original investment and just use the money that I have made for future trades.

I'm open to any thoughts on my plan and willing to listen to any advise.


ps. scottrade has webcasts on there web site that you can watch that explains stuff for beginners


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## lonelyfarmgirl

what do you mean 7$ for trades? Is a trade the same as buying or selling a stock? So each time you buy or sell something it costs you 7$?
What if no one wants to buy what you want to sell? Who do you sell it to? How do you get your money? The etrade thing said something about having to wait 8 weeks to get money.


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## mrpink

yes a buy or a sell is a trade which costs $7. other investors buy the shares you are selling. unless you just bought shares of a bankrupt company most shares will have a buyer. with scottrade I could call up the local branch to request my money and a check would be mailed. I didn't ask how long it would take. generally you want to leave your money in the account to work for you. others here can probably give more and better details then I can. as I said before I am just starting so take what I say with a grain of salt. If I was you then I would try to read and learn what I could if you are serious about wanting to invest in stocks.


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## featherbottoms

I don't know anything about any of the others so I will tell you what I know about Sharebuilder. It's now owned by, and part of, the ING family.

Sharebuilder is for people who want to buy stock but don't have a lot of money to invest at one time. The name kinda says it all - you build your shares. 

To start with, unless it's changed, there is no minimum to open an account. As a matter of fact, when I joined they gave me $25 credit after something like a month. 

The way it works is you buy what you can afford. If I had $25 per week to invest then I'd pick from the 7,000+ stocks they offer and buy $25 per week. I might get 1 share of stock, or 10.28 shares of stock, or whatever, depending on the price of the stock. The plan I am on cost me $4 each time I buy.

Next week, do the same.

A couple weeks ago I had 336.87 shares of a particular stock. I'd been buying it since about 2003 and my buy prices have been from $0.11 cent a share to $1.50 or so. So I've bought small amounts at a time.

I've sold a couple of times. Each time I sell, no matter how many shares I sell, it cost me $7.95. When I sell a stock the funds are transferred to my checking account within 3 business days.

My plan is on hold for the time being. I can turn it back on anytime, online. I've never had to call anyone or talk to anyone. It's been really easy to get around on and I'm happy with the way it works.


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## clovis

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> what do you mean 7$ for trades? Is a trade the same as buying or selling a stock? So each time you buy or sell something it costs you 7$?
> What if no one wants to buy what you want to sell? Who do you sell it to? How do you get your money? The etrade thing said something about having to wait 8 weeks to get money.


Yes, a when someone uses the term 'trade', they are either buying or selling a stock.

Each time you buy shares in a stock, you'll pay $7 as a broker fee, and when you want to sell those shares, you'll pay another $7 to sell them. 

When you hear the term 'round trip', that means that the total of the buy and sell broker fees in total. ($7 to buy + $7 to sell = $14 total.) You'll hear someone say, "My trades only cost me $14 round trip."

Do not worry about finding a buyer for your shares when you want to sell, especially if you are buying publicly traded stocks on the NYSE, etc. It shouldn't even be a concern for you at all. I've seen programs that show you, while you are sitting in the comforts of your home, all the buying and selling transactions of a certain stock in real time...it is amazing. 

There are some great beginner books at your library. The more you can read about the markets, the better off you are.



I have


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## clovis

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> what do you mean 7$ for trades? Is a trade the same as buying or selling a stock? So each time you buy or sell something it costs you 7$?
> What if no one wants to buy what you want to sell? Who do you sell it to? How do you get your money? The etrade thing said something about having to wait 8 weeks to get money.


I forgot to mention this:

When you sell, the broker, like Scottrade, will handle the entire transaction, and if you are buying or selling, the trade will get executed within seconds. There are millions of stocks bought and sold every second of the day, and the orders are lined up a mile deep.

The money from the sale of the stock will sit in your account for your next trade, or you can withdraw it. Most people leave it in their account.

Scottrade tells me it takes only 4 days to get a check if I ever needed to pull money from my account. 

So, if I had to have the cash, I could sell a stock on Monday, and have a check by Friday.


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## Reptyle

This web site is good at providing definitions for investing/trading terminology:

http://www.investopedia.com/


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## Tobster

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> what do you mean 7$ for trades? Is a trade the same as buying or selling a stock? So each time you buy or sell something it costs you 7$?
> What if no one wants to buy what you want to sell? Who do you sell it to? How do you get your money? The etrade thing said something about having to wait 8 weeks to get money.


Good questions lonelyfarmgirl. Transactions in a trading account are guaranteed. The guarantee is similar to banks where each is backed by insurance. FDIC insures your bank balance and SIPC will guarantee the funds in your brokerage account. A trade should never require 8 weeks to clear.

A trade is defined as opening and closing a position. Example: Buy 100 shares of a stock is opening a position. After a period of time you sell the same 100 shares which results in closing the position. If the price is higher when you close the position, you make money. If you want to make a withdrawal of your profits, there is no problem . . . however, if you decide to take another position in a stock and the price of that stock goes against you, the brokerage will not release funds beyond the losses in the current trade.

Someone is always willing to buy . . . the price may not always be where you wish to sell. 

IMO, you are wise to seek answers in those areas you do not understand. I have spent the past 12 years trying to understand why prices move as they do.


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## willow_girl

Great info, everybody!!! 

Well, yesterday I found once again that TIMING IS EVERYTHING! I sold that ALLT stock just in time to watch it jet up more than $1 a share. ARRGH! 

The good news is, my husband also had purchased 500 shares on my recommendation, and cashed it out for a $490 gain. 

I mentioned something to him about financial advisers getting a percentage of profits *ahem* and he reminded me that it's only because of his brilliant tutelage that I'm trading at all. 

Well, when you put it THAT way! :hysterical:


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## Micheal

Some maybe not trivial info, since many here mention Scottrade; Scottrade's $7.00 fee is for stocks that have a price of $1.00 or more. If you deal in stocks that cost less than a buck their fee is more as mentioned in their "fine print".......


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## mrpink

Micheal said:


> Some maybe not trivial info, since many here mention Scottrade; Scottrade's $7.00 fee is for stocks that have a price of $1.00 or more. If you deal in stocks that cost less than a buck their fee is more as mentioned in their "fine print".......


this is correct $7 plus 1/2%


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## lonelyfarmgirl

so, I could buy a stock, and watch the price go up or down on the ticker, and at any time, minutes, or months later, turn around and sell it, with a 99% chance it will be purchased by someone instantly at the going rate, what ever the ticker says. Then the company takes the fees out of your account automatically.

Is this a correct summary?


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## clovis

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> so, I could buy a stock, and watch the price go up or down on the ticker, and at any time, minutes, or months later, turn around and sell it, with a 99% chance it will be purchased by someone instantly at the going rate, what ever the ticker says. Then the company takes the fees out of your account automatically.
> 
> Is this a correct summary?


Yes. You are correct.

When dealing with stocks on the NYSE, your buy and sell price could vary a few cents. Your sale is going to be a 100% chance of someone buying it. 

The only caveat would be some penny stocks...I once lurked on a forum where people were buying stocks that were priced at less than one cent for 100 shares. (Yes, once cent for 100 shares.) These stocks are NOT listed on the NYSE, in fact, you would have to seek them out to buy them, and I'm not sure you could buy them through Scottrade. Some of those super risky stocks took weeks to sell. 

You are not planning on buying those are you?

Again, if you stay with stocks on the NYSE or NASDAQ, you really have no worries about finding a buyer, ever.


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## clovis

willow_girl said:


> Great info, everybody!!!
> 
> Well, yesterday I found once again that TIMING IS EVERYTHING! I sold that ALLT stock just in time to watch it jet up more than $1 a share. ARRGH!
> 
> The good news is, my husband also had purchased 500 shares on my recommendation, and cashed it out for a $490 gain.


Willow, That is wonderful!!!!


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## Micheal

lonelyfarmgirl, clovis is correct in the answer given with one little exception - it is not at "any" time - the market(s) has to be open to buy and sell.......
As to where they are found; all publicly traded stocks are listed either on the NYSE, NASDAQ/American exchange, or on what is called "pink sheets". Each exchange has their own set of rules and requirements to be listed within.
The "pink sheets" are what clovis is mentioning about as in most likely "risky" stocks and are somewhat hard if not impossible to find.
And yes Scottrade will buy and sell "pink sheet" listed stocks although in some instances you do get a flashing alert warning you about the trade.


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## Bret

clovis said:


> My personal strategy is to buy top quality stock that pays great dividends, and hold the stock long term. I don't have much money to put into the market, so I have to make sure that what I have is invested well. I have traded stocks in the past, and did VERY well for what I was working with.
> 
> Does this help?


I think that this a good plan. I use etrade. 

I hope everyone will pick one or two good companies that have meaning to them personally and get a little to work.

We have been in the greatest recession of modern times. There are still some values that have been beaten down to take into the future as souveniers.

I have been catching falling knives with GE for two years. And some others. Anyone here can buy this company today at a five dollar discount over my basis. My first buys looked pretty bad for a while. With the market recovering, some of dividend additions make me look like a genious...if I don't look back at where I started. 

Because I like to buy beaten down companies, I plan on adding a time or two if they keep going down...to a point. Sometimes you have to stand alone for a while and like your own company.

Learning can be the first goal and putting a little to risk is a good teacher.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

what if a stock you have is tanking and you want to hurry up and sell before you lose too much, will it still sell? why would someone else want to buy a stock that is in the process of decreasing in value?


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## Tobster

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> what if a stock you have is tanking and you want to hurry up and sell before you lose too much, will it still sell? why would someone else want to buy a stock that is in the process of decreasing in value?


Many answers as to why one buys a declining stock. If I believe a support level is below the current price, then I would consider the pullback in price as an opportunity to purchase at a wholesale price. Or, if I was short the stock, I need to be a buyer of the stock in order to close my position. If the market is open and a stock starts to tank, you can easily get out . . . the problem develops when bad news breaks after hours and the stock gaps down the next day on the open. You can really get hurt in that type of situation. Last summer Netflix had an earnings report after the market closed. It was trading at about 120.00 a share on the close. Traders did not like the report, next morning when the market opened, NFLX gapped down below 110 and traded down below 100. NFLX is at 223 today, if you had bought on that flush down, you would be sitting pretty today.


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## Guest

Today I traded all day, and just got churned big time. At the end of the day, I was up 80 cents after all commissions. However, I made 21 round trip trades and generated 91.70 in commissions for IB. Win some, lose some. I considered today to be an absolutely horrible waste of time. A lot of wild volatility due the the Mubarak situation, I shoulda done anything else, anything at all other than spending the day trading oil.
ETA: Just goes to show that no matter how many years experience you have, some days just ain't your day.


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## willow_girl

> Willow, That is wonderful!!!!


Wonderful for HIM .... grrrrr.

LOL 

But wait, it gets worse! On Jan. 20, I bought 100 shares of FCS @ $16.25. Four days later, I flipped it @ $17.17 for a profit of $72 after fees. 

At the time I was happy, but on Feb. 7, that stock went all the way up to $19.44!  :sob:

DH says I know how to pick 'em; I just don't know how to play 'em. ound:


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## AverageJo

So, Willowgirl,.... if you know how to pick 'em... Want to let us know where you get your information? What are you looking for in a company? Do you follow trends or charts? Do you follow some sort of recommendations or 'watch' list? I think I have a handle on who the various brokers are and how to set up an account, but now need more information on finding the right companies to invest in. Thanks in advance to everyone who chimes in here!! Even a PM would be appreciated if you don't want to post here.


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## willow_girl

FWIW, here's my strategy! 

I mostly pick stocks based on the earnings calendar, which narrows down the field a bit. I use the calendar at http://www.rightline.net/calendar/index.html, but you can Google others, too. Generally I'm looking to buy stocks that are anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks from reporting. Often there is a flurry of activity around this time, and that's what I'm looking to cash in on. I want to buy BEFORE the other speculators become interested in a company, if possible! 

I use eTrade's "Research" function to get information. I'll also Google the company name (a regular search AND a search for news on the company) before buying. Usually I can tell in less than 30 seconds if a stock is of interest to me or not. I look for ones with strong fundamentals, ideally ones that are trending upward but aren't at the peak of the 52-week cycle. I stay away from troubled companies -- for instance, ones that are facing regulatory issues or closing stores. I'm not betting on any underdogs in hopes they'll make good! Rather, I'm looking for a good company that might be having a bad day because the market is down across the board. 

It's important to note that even when a company releases a positive earnings report, sometimes the stock price will go DOWN on subsequent days, as speculators rush to take their profits! So I try to sell BEFORE the report comes out. 

My goal is to buy 100 shares of a stock that is likely to go up $1 per share in the short term. I like quick turn-arounds and often will sell for less, but always at a profit thus far. I don't think I've held a stock longer than 90 days. Most of the stocks I buy are in the $30 to $50 range.

Sometimes I'll watch a stock for awhile before buying. I keep a list, along with notations as to why I think they're good or bad and what I expect them to do. Periodically I'll revisit those stocks to see if my predictions panned out. I spend an hour or two a week doing research, usually on Sunday afternoons. I find it interesting. My husband also is an investor, so we yap a lot about the market and the state of the world in general. Hey, it beats gossiping about the neighbors!


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## NorthTexasGuy

The Stock Market DEMANDS tuition. You can either pay the Market in unnecessary losses, or pay for some formal education. I chose both unfortunately. It is commonly accepted that the Stock Market is gambling, but if you get educated it slowly becomes clear that it is not. It is more a matter of following the smart-money. They are the shark, I am the guppy, but even the leftovers yield great results. Daytrading is only for the VERY WELL-EDUCATED trader with say 5+ years of active trading. The vast majority of retail traders (including myself) have no business daytrading. I'm not trying to offend - only open some eyes possibly and save someone frustration and $$.

My personal goal is to become a full-time trader in the next year or so. I started this journey in April 2010 and have gotten quite an education so far. I started trading as soon as I learned a couple of strategies and quickly lost 30% of my trading capital trading options mostly. I stopped there and got a "real" education and then started paper trading on thinkorswim. My results have dramatically changed. I am now trading real money again. If I post my results I will likely be called a liar, so I will refrain. The notion that 50/50 wins/losses is good enough is a ridiculous statement. Their idea is lose small win big. I subscribed to this early on. This doesn't sound like a profession to me - does it to you? That is for those that haven't taken the time to learn proper stock analysis.

The toughest part of the education is determining what the current market condition is because strategies must change with the market condition. News is noise so I totally tune out analysts and gurus. The charts do the best talking anyway as they don't lie. I have learned to never tune into CNBC.

The bottom line is get educated and never stop learning. The market is like a living creature that is in constant change. It takes patience and hard work to learn its characteristics, but the results are rewarding. You do need to enjoy research. I have a tendency to immerse myself in something new and this was no different. I'm trying to limit myself to 2hrs a day and spend the rest at work, around the house, hunting, or in the garden. I now update Telechart after market close and study at my leisure that evening and the morning before market open on my days off.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

So, TexasGuy, talk more about the scope of this 'education' you seemingly got, and where and how you came about it, as it seems to me, everyone on this thread, myself included, is ultimately after an education. That is why we post.


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## NorthTexasGuy

Well in April of last year I responded to a radio ad from a station in Dallas. They claimed to teach how to trade stocks and that anyone can do it. I went to the two day seminar and had an eye opening experience. I decided that trading was something that I could do. I had traded before, but mostly through my 401k and had no clue how to pick a well performing stock. Their primary training was in options not stocks I found out. I had heard of options, but only enough to be very scared. Over the next few months I used the techniques they taught me and lost more money than I made - much more actually. I slowly determined that they were no better at picking stocks than I was. They did teach me the mechanics of options and I'm grateful for that at least, but they taught that 50% success was good. I was disappointed especially since I had paid good money for their training. So I scoured the web for any info that seemed reliable and tried to self teach. In my searching I stumbled onto Technitrader. They claimed that you should be winning at least 70% of your picks, and they taught methods to do just that. Now they had my attention. I researched the company and determined they were on the up-and-up. They have an A+ rating with the BBB. The other company wasn't a member. I talked with the sales staff a few times prior to purchase then pulled the trigger and ordered it. It is a self-paced home study course with email support throughout and after completing the course. Martha Stokes started the company and is a talented teacher. They teach you how to fish for yourself and not rely on someone else to recommend stock picks. The course isn't cheap, but cost is relative to what you get out of something right? If you diligently apply yourself and listen well then it will be worth it. I completed the course in Nov and have started trading live again. I have no dog in the hunt. There is nothing in it for me for recommending a new student. Stock Market training is a process not a course you complete. It is a journey that I will not likely complete. I have set my mind to do this full-time and Lord willing I'll get there. It will allow me to work from home and spend more time with my family, go to Church every Sunday not every other like my current job requires. I also enjoy this and not so much my current job. So if you are serious about a home-based business that gives financial independence and enjoy this sort of work then I recommend getting solid training and start your own journey. Sounds like an advertisement doesn't it. I assure you I am no spokesman for the company. I just think there is so much misinformation out there about the stock market and it is a shame. It can be fixed. Poke around TechniTrader's website and read/watch some of their free training. It wet my appetite, and it might yours as well - www.technitrader.com.


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## willow_girl

Oh, I'm not sure the _only_ way to learn how to trade is to either pay for a class, or lose a lot of money gaining experience! That certainly hasn't been my experience, or my husband's. That said, I'm not going to knock anybody for getting an education! And I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on the subject; just somebody muddling along, trying to make a buck. 

That said, my pick for the morning was ARTW. The company has been publicly traded for awhile -- since the 70's -- and doesn't seem to have done anything spectacular, but farm equipment firms are getting some play right now so I thought I'd roll the dice! 

I bought 300 shares when the market opened and set them to sell when I made my usual $100. When they hit the limit, only 244 shares moved, for a profit of $76. Now I'm sitting on 66 shares and wondering what to do?!

Guess I'll hold them awhile, and see if the stock goes up a bit more before it reports on 2/21.


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## Halfway

We are in a bull run since S&P 1070. We are over 1300. It is easy money to long and then sell after a few percent. That said, the market has a way of extracting the most from the most.

I get cautious when my barber begins to daytrade. Riding through the early 90's, the tech buibble, the bubble crash, and our recent bull-bust cycle, shows that staying power is the key. 

Protect your base capital at all costs. Learn. Learn. Learn.

If it is easy, it will go away even easier. Mark it.


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## Tobster

That is good advice Halfway. I trade the index futures, that is my bread and butter. I am 100% a technical trader, fundamentals mean nothing to me. I am sure where stocks are concerned fundamentals are important, that is why I subscribe to a service for my buy and sell list of stocks. I apply my technicals to the list and wait for signals to enter. My stock trading requires very little time, most of my day is spent trading the equity futures. Halfway, you are correct the market has been straight up since November. Everyone has been saying for weeks how overbought the market is and yet it grinds higher. The DOW is now at a critical resistance level. I wish it was simple when these levels occur, truth is the market can continue higher, go sideways or begin the big pullback everyone has been waiting for. Timing is difficult as well, tomorrow, the next day, next week? If the DOW heads south your stock can still go up as the DOW goes down. Many stocks beat the market, just as many stocks under perform the market. Don't get lulled into believing it is simple, buy, wait, sell and make money. Back in the 90's with the NASDAQ that was the formula and it worked well . . . until it didn't anymore. This market will eventually correct down for a while, it always does . . . when? who knows . . . my take is very soon, the DOW is signaling now, pay attention, keep your stops tight and hope is not strategy.


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## clovis

willow_girl said:


> I bought 300 shares when the market opened and set them to sell when I made my usual $100. When they hit the limit, only 244 shares moved, for a profit of $76. Now I'm sitting on 66 shares and wondering what to do?!
> 
> Guess I'll hold them awhile, and see if the stock goes up a bit more before it reports on 2/21.


My uncle's strategy is often to buy shares, and sell exactly half of what he has at a predetermined profit.

In his case, if he bought 200 shares, with the hopes of clipping off $200 in gross profit, he will sell 100 shares to lock in $100 gain, and then hold the other 100 shares for a while, whether it be another 20 minutes or 10 days. This way he is locked in on some profit, and it works to hedge against any loss on the last 100 shares.

Since you seem to be missing out on some added gains, would this strategy work for you?


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## Tobster

clovis said:


> My uncle's strategy is often to buy shares, and sell exactly half of what he has at a predetermined profit.
> 
> In his case, if he bought 200 shares, with the hopes of clipping off $200 in gross profit, he will sell 100 shares to lock in $100 gain, and then hold the other 100 shares for a while, whether it be another 20 minutes or 10 days. This way he is locked in on some profit, and it works to hedge against any loss on the last 100 shares.
> 
> Since you seem to be missing out on some added gains, would this strategy work for you?


Scaling out of a position is a very good strategy. I do it sometimes and one thing I always do is move my stop to breakeven. Don't let it go against you once your first target is hit. My 2 cents.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Tobster said:


> That is good advice Halfway. I trade the index futures, that is my bread and butter. I am 100% a technical trader, fundamentals mean nothing to me. I am sure where stocks are concerned fundamentals are important, that is why I subscribe to a service for my buy and sell list of stocks. I apply my technicals to the list and wait for signals to enter. My stock trading requires very little time, most of my day is spent trading the equity futures. Halfway, you are correct the market has been straight up since November. Everyone has been saying for weeks how overbought the market is and yet it grinds higher. The DOW is now at a critical resistance level. I wish it was simple when these levels occur, truth is the market can continue higher, go sideways or begin the big pullback everyone has been waiting for. Timing is difficult as well, tomorrow, the next day, next week? If the DOW heads south your stock can still go up as the DOW goes down. Many stocks beat the market, just as many stocks under perform the market. Don't get lulled into believing it is simple, buy, wait, sell and make money. Back in the 90's with the NASDAQ that was the formula and it worked well . . . until it didn't anymore. This market will eventually correct down for a while, it always does . . . when? who knows . . . my take is very soon, the DOW is signaling now, pay attention, keep your stops tight and hope is not strategy.


could you speak english, for us stock know-nothings?


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## willow_girl

> My uncle's strategy is often to buy shares, and sell exactly half of what he has at a predetermined profit.
> 
> In his case, if he bought 200 shares, with the hopes of clipping off $200 in gross profit, he will sell 100 shares to lock in $100 gain, and then hold the other 100 shares for a while, whether it be another 20 minutes or 10 days. This way he is locked in on some profit, and it works to hedge against any loss on the last 100 shares.
> 
> Since you seem to be missing out on some added gains, would this strategy work for you?


Hmm, interesting idea! I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion, Clovis!


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## Tobster

I apologize lonelyfarmgirl. It is within a very narrow world in which I discuss the markets, rarely in a public forum. Let me say, I know very little about stocks as well. To me they are symbols which I buy and sell. Sometimes making money and sometimes taking a loss. My time is primarily spent trading futures, not stocks. I do know a few things about the overall market, such as the S&P 500 and the Dow Jones. My main point in the post was about the current state of the Dow Jones Index. The Dow Jones index along with the S&P500 and to a lesser extent the Nasdaq, are barometers for the overall stock market. Many of the stock market indicators used by traders have been warning the stock market is near a level where it can go no higher until it first changes direction and moves down lower. I know we don't like to think of prices going lower if we own a stock, but that is the nature of the cycle. If you look at a historical chart of the stock market you will notice that it zig-zags in a direction, never it a straight line. 3 steps up 1 step back, 2 steps up 3 steps down, 2 up 1 down and so forth. We have been in a straight line up, traders have been very nervous for the past few weeks wondering when we will hit the top and head back down. I believe we are at the level where buying will cease and we will get a much needed healthy pullback to lower prices. It is healthy because as prices go lower, it will attract new buyers and the next move up will be stronger. Expect the market to eventually sell off and go lower, no one knows for sure when it it will happen, but I think that time is very soon.


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## clovis

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> could you speak english, for us stock know-nothings?


LFG,

I wonder if a book or two like this one would help:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Small-Investor-Beginners-Guide-Stocks-Bonds-/370384782734?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item563ca7458e#ht_878wt_932

Have you checked out your local library? They should have a decent selection of books like these.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Tobster said:


> I believe we are at the level where buying will cease and we will get a much needed healthy pullback to lower prices. It is healthy because as prices go lower, it will attract new buyers and the next move up will be stronger. Expect the market to eventually sell off and go lower, no one knows for sure when it it will happen, but I think that time is very soon.


so based on this speculation, should no one be buying? It seems if people believe everything is going to tank soon, then why would you buy now, instead of simply waiting for everything to decrease in value? Wouldn't that be ultra risky?
Really, I am just trying to wrap my brain around it, not be controversial.


----------



## Halfway

Some sector tools. These are ETFs with leverage. You trade them as stocks, but they encompass sectors.

FAS 3x Long Financial
FAZ 3x Short Finacials. This allows you to short a stock without a margin account as the "Long" is actually a short. Use this to bet against the financials.

SPY Long S&P 500

SSO 2x Long S&P 500
SDS Short 2x S&P 500 a bet against the overall S&P 500

TNA 3x Long Russel 2000
TZA 3x short russel 2000 a bet against the russel 2000

There are plenty more of these ETFs. Google "ETF", direxion, ishares, proshares etc.

Learn some chart patterns

Learn some candlestick formations

Learn some fundamentals

learn some technical indicators.

When all that is well behind you, you may actually trade price action and make some money. :clap:


SSO Long 2 S&P 500


----------



## Tobster

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> so based on this speculation, should no one be buying? It seems if people believe everything is going to tank soon, then why would you buy now, instead of simply waiting for everything to decrease in value? Wouldn't that be ultra risky?
> Really, I am just trying to wrap my brain around it, not be controversial.


First of all, I have no idea what others believe about the market, this is my opinion. The rest of the traders could be buying hand over fist and the stock market could soar up to the moon . . . and leave me behind in the dust. . . It would not be the first time such a thing has happened and will not be the last. For the time being, I am not looking to buy any new stocks. Nor am I selling what I currently own. However, I have orders placed in the market to sell my stocks (a protective stop) at prices very close to the current price. If the price goes down a few per cent on those stocks, the order will be triggered and I will be out of them. That is how I am playing it for now. In a nutshell, I am waiting before I buy and sitting with a hair trigger to dump what I now own.

News events and market action over the next few days may change my view, I try to keep an open mind and roll with the flow. At this time I am cautious. Next week I may be bullish. One day at time and see what unfolds.

The amount of volume in yesterday's market was the lowest it has been a while. That indicates to me that many traders are looking at this level and choosing to stand on the sideline and see what happens. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is possible for some stocks to go up in value as the Dow Jones goes down. For instance, you may own a stock and the Dow drops 500 points over a few days and during that time your stock can actually rise in price. It happens. It is somewhat rare, but it happens. 

I can not tell you what the market will do this afternoon, tomorrow or next month (no one can) if I did know, I would tell you. I try to always keep an open mind and have a view on the market, it helps with my decision making. If I am wrong I try to quickly accept error and move on. The market is always changing, as I said, this time next week I may be very bullish, it just depends on what happens between now and then.


----------



## Tobster

lonelyfarmgirl, I have 2 suggestions if you are interested in reading material. #1 - Go take a look and plot around on the Investor Buisness Daily Newspaper site (much of the site is FREE, although they have a subscribers section too) and/or pick up a copy of their printed newspaper, it is about $2.00 for the paper, does not matter is it is a few days old or not. #2 - Get the book from your library called. 'Reminiscences Of A Stock Operator' by Edwin Lefevre. It is a great novel and wonderful read. That one book is required reading by 99% of the new employees hired by brokerage firms, trading houses, etc. It is a great book for anyone trading or not trading.

Added: The IBD, Investor's Business Daily was started by William O'Neil a successful stock trader. His whole system is based on what he calls CANSLIM. His formula for CANSLIM is always printed in the newspaper, it is free to read and understand. His paper, IBD rates stocks based on this system. It is interesting to say the least. Read about it and make up your own mind. You may try to google CANSLIM as well. Good luck.


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## willow_girl

> so based on this speculation, should no one be buying? It seems if people believe everything is going to tank soon, then why would you buy now, instead of simply waiting for everything to decrease in value? Wouldn't that be ultra risky?
> Really, I am just trying to wrap my brain around it, not be controversial.


At the end of the day, it's anyone's guess. Two analysts can look at the same data and make different predictions. There are so many variables (take the international situation, for instance) and everything can change in the blink of an eye! (Remember 9/11?)

But that's what makes it so interesting ...


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## willow_girl

> I get cautious when my barber begins to daytrade.


What about your housecleaner? :hysterical:


----------



## Halfway

willow_girl said:


> What about your housecleaner? :hysterical:


As long as the house cleaner is riding the wave, it's all good!.

With QE2 and free money for everyone, be bold. This wave will not last forever.
:banana02:


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## willow_girl

I agree, but while it lasts, what fun! 

(BTW I said the previous because I'm a housecleaner.)


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## groundhogII

This past Monday I sold the right to someone to buy my 1400 shares for $12 a share by March 18th.I received $136 for giving someone this right.On Monday my stock was only trading at $9.56,so I gladly will sell to to someone for $12 a share 5 weeks from now.
What's the catch you may ask.My risk is that my stock could potentially excede $12 a share in 5 weeks and I am still obligated to sell at $12 on or before March 18th.If the stock isn't $12 on March 18th,I get to keep my shares.The $136 is mine regardless of what happens.This is called writing covered calls.


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## willow_girl

Groundhog,

That is very interesting indeed! What mechanism do you use to make these trades? 

I haven't delved into options at all.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

So, are there stocks to buy and sell for things like wool, beef, soybeans, lamb, copper, etc? How does that work?

Reason I ask, the price of lamb is going through the roof. Lamb sold, here anyway, at the wholesale buyers for higher than its ever been in history. And I know the price of cotton is up 14%.


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## Halfway

willow_girl said:


> Groundhog,
> 
> That is very interesting indeed! What mechanism do you use to make these trades?
> 
> I haven't delved into options at all.


Options are a sucker's game unless you are doing like he is and WRITING them. We can debate it for hours, but math is on my side. The house maintains a huge advantage that cannot be overcome.



lonelyfarmgirl said:


> So, are there stocks to buy and sell for things like wool, beef, soybeans, lamb, copper, etc? How does that work?
> 
> Reason I ask, the price of lamb is going through the roof. Lamb sold, here anyway, at the wholesale buyers for higher than its ever been in history. And I know the price of cotton is up 14%.


Open an account with a broker that allows Futures trading. They are easy to trade. Easy in terms of the mechanics. Not easy to masteras with all trading.

Google "how to trade futures" for a start.


----------



## Tobster

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> So, are there stocks to buy and sell for things like wool, beef, soybeans, lamb, copper, etc? How does that work?
> 
> Reason I ask, the price of lamb is going through the roof. Lamb sold, here anyway, at the wholesale buyers for higher than its ever been in history. And I know the price of cotton is up 14%.


http://www.cmegroup.com/

This is the link for the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, once you are on their home page you will see a row of buttons listing the different categories offered at the exchange. Choose Agriculture and it will show you all of the products traded in Ag, along with the rules and margin requirements. These are heavily leveraged, meaning you can deposit a reasonable amount of cash with a broker to open your account. There is nothing wrong with being leveraged, IF you manage your risk. NYMEX is the exchange in New York where many different commodities are traded. google it if you are interested. I don't know about ETF's for those things you listed. I really don't care for the ETF's. You can buy stock in companies which will closely track certain commodities. For instance, fertilizer companies can be a play in nitrogen. I think it is possible to do what you are asking, however you will need to do seek them out.


----------



## lonelyfarmgirl

EFT? Did I miss what that was? 

The main reason I ask about the commodities, is I think that would be a reliable thing for me to play with, in stead of trying to follow random company stocks. I am deep in dairy country, and closely follow wholesale buyer prices on all sorts of animals and their products, and grain crops, etc.. Those things, I know about.


----------



## Halfway

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> EFT? Did I miss what that was?
> 
> The main reason I ask about the commodities, is I think that would be a reliable thing for me to play with, in stead of trying to follow random company stocks. I am deep in dairy country, and closely follow wholesale buyer prices on all sorts of animals and their products, and grain crops, etc.. Those things, I know about.


 
I agree with Tobster, and as he said, spend some time on the cme site. You must have an understanding of delivery, size, month of execution etc. and you will likely use leverage for even a small number of contracts.

10k to trade an e mini is advised. let alone the softs or crude etc.

As I said, spend a few days reading up on the cme site for an understanding or this could easily be a 50 page thread.


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## willow_girl

ETFs are exchange traded funds. They're funds you can buy and sell like stocks. More info here: http://www.morningstar.com/Cover/ETFs.aspx

My husband really likes these guys. Recently he gave me a list of some to check out:

CGMRX
CAMAX
FAIRX

Well, today was another good day in the market! Some of my funds settled last night, and I had a feeling I should make a buy this morning, even though I didn't have anything lined up. So I looked at ALLT -- which I'd bought and sold last week -- and noted it was down $1 from its recent peak, and also off in after hours trading. I put in an order to buy 300 shares, then called DH and had him set my sell for +35 cents ... two hours later, it moved! I cleared $85. 

So far in the first 48 days of 2011, I'm up $771.


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## InvalidID

Hey hey, I found a thread on something I actually know a little about! LOL

That said, I'll start with mentioning Trade King. I have an account there and it's only $5 (4.95) per trade. That isn't option or anything fancy, straight stock trades. 
It's made it easier to make small trades when I'm just guessing... LOL

Now to lay out a few stocks I've done well on, mind you all I'm not a day trader. I hold em a lil longer.

OIB It's a muni ETF that pays .04 dividend every month. I got in at around 5.50. The price I'm less concerned with, as long as they pay that dividend every month.

I dod well to get into Ruger early. Bought a gun from them, then stock at 790ish. If they go under 12 I'd buy more.

Last, Novagold. The one time I listened to Jim Cramer. 

If I was gonna recommend any of those it'd be OIB any time it's under $6. With a sweet divined for the price it's better than money in the bank IMHO.


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## Allen W

Anyone using puts and calls in the grain futures market?


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## Halfway

InvalidID said:


> Hey hey, I found a thread on something I actually know a little about! LOL
> 
> That said, I'll start with mentioning Trade King. I have an account there and it's only $5 (4.95) per trade. That isn't option or anything fancy, straight stock trades.
> It's made it easier to make small trades when I'm just guessing... LOL
> 
> Now to lay out a few stocks I've done well on, mind you all I'm not a day trader. I hold em a lil longer.
> 
> OIB It's a muni ETF that pays .04 dividend every month. I got in at around 5.50. The price I'm less concerned with, as long as they pay that dividend every month.
> 
> I dod well to get into Ruger early. Bought a gun from them, then stock at 790ish. If they go under 12 I'd buy more.
> 
> Last, Novagold. The one time I listened to Jim Cramer.
> 
> If I was gonna recommend any of those it'd be OIB any time it's under $6. With a sweet divined for the price it's better than money in the bank IMHO.


Thanks for the info on OIB. There are some strong dividend stocks out there. 

Especially some of the heavy hitter blue chips that are still at a decent price. T, VZ, COP, CVX, TRV, DOW, CAG, SO, all come to mind.


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## clovis

Willow...sending you a PM about that stock we've been talking about.


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## willow_girl

Thanks Clovis! You have mail. 

This morning's pick was SPWRA, a company I'd been watching for about a week. It came out with a really strong earnings report and 2011 projection on Friday. Its stock went up around 60 cents then, but I thought there was room for it to move higher. I bought 200 shares and set my sell as usual to net $80 ... I don't think it was in my portfolio 20 minutes! 

It's a good thing I didn't get greedy as it made a U-turn shortly thereafter and now is down 25 cents for the day! But my profits are safely squirreled away ... Up $851 for the year now!


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## Halfway

Keep your stops tight Willow, and be very careful of any over-night holds. Gaps down can be killers on swing trades.


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## willow_girl

The market has been so hot that the last couple of buys I've made went round-trip in under a day (sometimes under an hour). I guess this is good in some ways, bad in others.

Take a look at WLK. Now there's a stock I flipped back in January for my usual $80 profit. Its earnings report just came out today and it beat analyst estimates by .52!  It's up more than $2 today, when the rest of the market is tanking. 

If I still had my 100 shares, I'd be up $967. :sob:


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## Timberline

Willow, thanks for starting this very interesting thread!

I'd like to ask you some specific questions about your Etrade experience if you don't mind. 

My only experience in this area has been some mutual funds where you have to invest a certain minimum amount each month and it's invested on your behalf. Beyond that I don't have any experience.

My questions for you are:
1) When you opened your initial account with Etrade, do you have to maintain a high minimum balance? Let's say you open an account with $500. How much of that would be available to buy your stocks?

2) Let say's you buy stocks for $300, and you sell for $400. They take out their fees and your profit is $80. Can you have all of that 80 transferred to you anytime? I guess what I'm saying is: if you have a certain amount you want to risk, can you take all your profits (if any) out? Or does Etrade require it, or a portion of it, be reinvested? I know reinvesting is wise, buy if you choose not to, do you have to?

3) Is there a required monthly investment beyond your initial account opening, or can you buy/sell just when you choose and how much you choose?

Thanks so much!


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## willow_girl

Chalk Creek said:


> Willow, thanks for starting this very interesting thread!


You're welcome! In answer to your questions:



Chalk Creek said:


> My questions for you are:
> 1) When you opened your initial account with Etrade, do you have to maintain a high minimum balance? Let's say you open an account with $500. How much of that would be available to buy your stocks?


The whole $500. However, the transaction fee is based on how much money you have invested through eTrade. I think the regular fee is $12.99 (IIRC) but if you keep at least $50,000 in eTrade it drops to $9.99.



Chalk Creek said:


> 2) Let say's you buy stocks for $300, and you sell for $400. They take out their fees and your profit is $80. Can you have all of that 80 transferred to you anytime? I guess what I'm saying is: if you have a certain amount you want to risk, can you take all your profits (if any) out? Or does Etrade require it, or a portion of it, be reinvested? I know reinvesting is wise, buy if you choose not to, do you have to?


No, you can yank your money anytime (or just leave it in an eTrade saving or money market account -- it doesn't have to be reinvested). Or you can link your eTrade account to an outside bank account and move money back and forth electronically at no charge (which is what I do). DH says eTrade also will give you a debit card or checkbook linked to your eTrade account if you prefer. (I don't know if there is a charge for that since I don't use those functions.)



Chalk Creek said:


> 3) Is there a required monthly investment beyond your initial account opening,


No



> or can you buy/sell just when you choose and how much you choose?


Yes

Hope that helps!


----------



## Timberline

Thanks, Willow. That does help. I think it would be a very long time before I'd get to $50,000 and the $9.99 fee!


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## okiemom

I buy and hold. I look to increase dividends. You might look at weyerhaeuser. it seems to be on sale.


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## clovis

okiemom said:


> I buy and hold. I look to increase dividends. You might look at weyerhaeuser. it seems to be on sale.


What is the symbol?

What other dividend stocks are you watching or buying?

I like:
Lilly (LLY)
Duke Energy (DUK)
ATT (T)
Verizon (VZ)
BP Prudhoe Bay Trust (BPT)

Nice high yields.

I only have a position in LLY right now, which is a fancy way of saying "I own a few shares." LOL


----------



## okiemom

I like 

wy ( today) on sale!!!!!!!


rsg
rtn really long term
jnj



I will add more later & as always do your homework


----------



## InvalidID

okiemom said:


> I buy and hold. I look to increase dividends. You might look at weyerhaeuser. it seems to be on sale.


 Weyerhaeser... Be careful there. They've moved from a Timber land company largely to a manufacturing company. By that I mean most of the money they makes appears to be from paper mills.

For my money Plum Creek (PCL) is a better bet on pure Timber. It's a RIET that has to pay out 90% (I think it's 90) of their profits in dividends to maintain preferred tax status.


As always with advice, your mileage may vary


----------



## okiemom

(WY)good to know. Reaserch is vital. They do seem to be diversifying away from raw materials. They are into housing development and building materials or vlaue added products. I know they have some of their devisions in a REIT I understood that is not for all divisions only the ones dealing w/ realestate. any more info on that ?

They do still have contracts to farm the timber? Are they sub contracting it out. SE ok is still a huge hub for them. I am watching and getting more info.


----------



## InvalidID

okiemom said:


> (WY)good to know. Reaserch is vital. They do seem to be diversifying away from raw materials. They are into housing development and building materials or vlaue added products. I know they have some of their devisions in a REIT I understood that is not for all divisions only the ones dealing w/ realestate. any more info on that ?
> 
> They do still have contracts to farm the timber? Are they sub contracting it out. SE ok is still a huge hub for them. I am watching and getting more info.


 Well, if we go back to 2009 WY was in such bad shape they were turning down the heat in their offices to save money. For a company that size that smells like disaster to me.

Last year they made about $0.48 per share profit and paid out $0.60 in dividends. They have the cash to do it, but for how long?

Mind you I may be missing the boat completely here. I'm in Wa. which is where they are headquartered and a lot of folks around here work for them. A lot of the news from the mills doesn't inspire confidence to me. Again, I might be missing the boat. I'm a fairly conservative investor most of the time.


----------



## willow_girl

Yes, with the downturn in the housing industry, I'd be leery of buying stock in a lumber company! Of course, they do other things, too. 

Well I finished the week $28 to the good, as the stock I bought Tuesday (FCS) climbed out of the -$189.99 hole it initially fell into. Gulp!!! The company has good fundamentals, though, so I had reason to believe it would bounce back, and it seems it has.


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## clovis

Why WY???

Seems like there are tons of stocks to buy with better dividends and better yields.


----------



## willow_girl

Well, my FCS moved in the opening minutes of the session; I'm up another $80, $931 for the year.

This morning I picked up 100 shares of Clovis' SLW! So far it is looking pretty good! :bouncy:


----------



## Timberline

That's great, willow. Want to be my mentor? :help: Just kidding, you've already helped me more than you know.

I'm getting ready to start. Doing lots of research, learning, paper trades. Currently looking at the different brokers. I like the looks of Tradeking, $4.95 trades, good education section for beginners.


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## willow_girl

You GO, Chalk!


----------



## InvalidID

Chalk Creek said:


> That's great, willow. Want to be my mentor? :help: Just kidding, you've already helped me more than you know.
> 
> I'm getting ready to start. Doing lots of research, learning, paper trades. Currently looking at the different brokers. I like the looks of Tradeking, $4.95 trades, good education section for beginners.


 TradeKing, I'll vouch for them. They've been very good to me and I've been with em for a few years now. If you decide to sign up with them PM me and I'll give you a special code. They'll give us both $100. 

I'm not sure what the restrictions are. I'm pretty sure it's only till 3/31/11 though. And you may have to have the account for a certain amount of time before they pay out.


----------



## Timberline

InvalidID said:


> TradeKing, I'll vouch for them. They've been very good to me and I've been with em for a few years now. If you decide to sign up with them PM me and I'll give you a special code. They'll give us both $100.
> 
> I'm not sure what the restrictions are. I'm pretty sure it's only till 3/31/11 though. And you may have to have the account for a certain amount of time before they pay out.


Good to hear from someone who uses Tradeking. I'll look into that and get back with you. I am planning on opening an account in the next few days. Thanks.


----------



## willow_girl

Well, gang, I screwed up AGAIN!!! :hysterical: 

I finally worked up the courage to buy 100 shares of SLW @ $41.33 this morning. I set my sell, as usual, for a buck over the purchase price, and trundled off to work. Came home for lunch, in between jobs, and the stock had gone up ... but then it had come down again, to within $8 of my purchase price (and was still falling). Hmmm ...

I looked at its history again and noted that the sell price I'd selected was a penny over its 52-week high. Yikes! It had "gapped up" over the weekend, so I'd paid more for it than I'd initially anticipated. I started to panic and revised my sell to $41.99, then headed out to my second job. 

Called my husband after the market closed, only to discover that in the last hour of the day, SLW shot all the way up to ... get ready for it! ... $42.55! ARRRRRGHHHHHHH!

Of course, my shares went off at $41.99. I cleared $46 after fees ... but if I'd kept my fingers OFF the keyboard this afternoon, I'd have made $100. 

I think DH just about *hurt* himself laughing at my total lack of intestinal fortitude ... ound:

I'm kicking myself, of course, but I still finished the day up $126, and $976 for the year. So I really can't complain!

Speaking of which ... sometimes not getting _too_ greedy does pay off! That FCS I sold this morning at $18.70 peaked at $18.72, then fell all the way to $17.61 by day's end. *Gulp!* So I'm glad I let that one go when I did. Whew!


----------



## InvalidID

willow_girl said:


> Well, gang, I screwed up AGAIN!!! :hysterical:
> 
> I finally worked up the courage to buy 100 shares of SLW @ $41.33 this morning. I set my sell, as usual, for a buck over the purchase price, and trundled off to work. Came home for lunch, in between jobs, and the stock had gone up ... but then it had come down again, to within $8 of my purchase price (and was still falling). Hmmm ...
> 
> I looked at its history again and noted that the sell price I'd selected was a penny over its 52-week high. Yikes! It had "gapped up" over the weekend, so I'd paid more for it than I'd initially anticipated. I started to panic and revised my sell to $41.99, then headed out to my second job.
> 
> Called my husband after the market closed, only to discover that in the last hour of the day, SLW shot all the way up to ... get ready for it! ... $42.55! ARRRRRGHHHHHHH!
> 
> Of course, my shares went off at $41.99. I cleared $46 after fees ... but if I'd kept my fingers OFF the keyboard this afternoon, I'd have made $100.
> 
> I think DH just about *hurt* himself laughing at my total lack of intestinal fortitude ... ound:
> 
> I'm kicking myself, of course, but I still finished the day up $126, and $976 for the year. So I really can't complain!
> 
> Speaking of which ... sometimes not getting _too_ greedy does pay off! That FCS I sold this morning at $18.70 peaked at $18.72, then fell all the way to $17.61 by day's end. *Gulp!* So I'm glad I let that one go when I did. Whew!


 Better to fall up the stairs than down...


----------



## Timberline

But you still came out ahead, so it's all good.


----------



## willow_girl

> Better to fall up the stairs than down...


Or like I told my husband, "$46 is still better than a stick in the eye!" 

And let the record show: I have never panicked and sold anything _at a loss_!

Now I gotta get busy and find a new stock to buy once my $$$ settle.


----------



## clovis

I agree, at least you made money, and gain yet another trade for experience!!!!!


----------



## willow_girl

I seem to be receiving the same lesson over and over, though. Maybe someday it will sink in!


----------



## Timberline

Willow, how long does it take your funds to settle with etrade?


----------



## willow_girl

I almost always get a full settlement within 48 hours. (Once over a holiday weekend it took 3 business days.)

Etrade will let you go ahead and buy another stock before your funds fully settle, but if you turn around and sell the new stock before the settlement, you'll get in trouble! If you do it more than once, they'll lock down your account for 60 days and not let you reinvest those funds until after the full settlement. (No, I didn't get spanked! My hubby did, though. LOL)

I usually wait for the full settlement just to be on the safe side. Sometimes, if there's a stock I really need to buy RIGHT NOW, I'll request a temporary loan from the Bank of DH.  (You can immediately access money moved between eTrade accounts.)


----------



## Timberline

willow_girl said:


> Etrade will let you go ahead and buy another stock before your funds fully settle, but if you turn around and sell the new stock before the settlement, you'll get in trouble! If you do it more than once, they'll lock down your account for 60 days and not let you reinvest those funds until after the full settlement.


Thanks for the info. Is that what's called a short trade?


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## mrpink

to short a stock is to bet the stock will go down in value. I believe it is part of "option trading". someone please correct me if I am wrong.

willowgirl would you mind telling us roughly what kind of percentage you are up this year? I know you have given a dollar amount but it really don't let us financially challenged folks that need to relate stuff to percentages know how well we could be doing


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## Tobster

mrpink said:


> to short a stock is to bet the stock will go down in value. I believe it is part of "option trading". someone please correct me if I am wrong.


mrpink, you are correct, by taking a short position you profit if the stock goes down in price. Option trading is not necessary to short a stock, but you can use options to accomplish the goal. Many brokers will require you to be on margin in order to short, check with your broker. I have shorted many stocks and never employed options. The most important thing to remember when shorting is realize your loss can be unlimited. The sky is the limit with your potential losses when shorting. The higher the stock you shorted rises, the more you lose and who is to say how high it can go? When going long a stock, your potential loss is known in advance. If you BUY $1000 worth of stock and the company goes bankrupt and the stock becomes worthless, your loss is $1000 ( plus commissions ). If you SHORT $1000 worth of stock who is to say the stock will not double, triple or go up a hundred times in price? The higher it goes, the more it cost you. You must be VERY disciplined when shorting, set your stops and take your medicine quickly if it goes up on you.


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## Tobster

willow_girl said:


> Etrade will let you go ahead and buy another stock before your funds fully settle, but if you turn around and sell the new stock before the settlement, you'll get in trouble! If you do it more than once, they'll lock down your account for 60 days and not let you reinvest those funds until after the full settlement. (No, I didn't get spanked! My hubby did, though. LOL)


Trading quick turnarounds on multiple stocks and the process of clearing can be a problem. The industry addressed it several years ago. They refer to that sort of activity as 'Pattern Day Trading'. Last time I checked the limit on trades was set to (my memory is foggy) perhaps 5 buy and sells (turnarounds) in a 4 day window???? In order to get around that, (once again it has been a few years since I have read the rules) you can deposit a minimum of $25,000 and declare it a daytrading account. The second part is important. You MUST declare in advance with the broker, that your account is a Pattern Day Trading Account. I know a woman who had well above the $25K in her account, they got down right nasty with her. If you go to your brokers web site and search the term, I am sure they will spell out all the current rules.


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## willow_girl

Another crazy day! After posting the above, about always waiting for my funds to settle before reinvesting, what did I do? Jumped the gun and got smacked down by the SEC! ound:

It's really not as bad as it sounds. 

Over coffee this morning, I was taking a peek at the earnings calendar, and saw a stock I JUST HAD TO HAVE! I checked my account and had received a partial settlement, so I moved some funds over from another account to have just enough to make the buy. Put in my order and shuffled off to work ...

Called DH around 9:45 and asked him to check my account and make sure the buy had processed (it had), then asked him to set my sell for (as usual) $1 over purchase price. Since the stock doesn't report its earnings until 3/7, I figured it would take a couple of days to hit the target (during which time the funds I had used to buy it would have fully settled). 

He said, "It's up 99 cents right now." 

What to do, what to do? I told him to just go ahead and dump it! To heck with the wrath of the SEC; a hundred bucks is a hundred bucks! 

Later, he decided to call eTrade to find out if his brokerage account also would be restricted since our accounts are linked. The CSR he spoke to indicated that as long as I transferred in enough funds to fully cover the trade within 48 hours, the 90-day restriction would be lifted. DH relayed the message to me, and I told him to go ahead and suck some funds out of my savings account. So all's well that ends well! 

The stock, BTW, was KRO. 



> willowgirl would you mind telling us roughly what kind of percentage you are up this year? I know you have given a dollar amount but it really don't let us financially challenged folks that need to relate stuff to percentages know how well we could be doing


Sure, I don't mind. As of today, my net profits for the year are $1049. I started trading with a little under $8,000 in this account. That works out to roughly 13 percent net (after trading fees). If you add in the $270 in trading fees I've racked up, my gross comes out to a little over 16 percent. Beginner's luck, I guess!


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## Michael W. Smith

okiemom said:


> I buy and hold. I look to increase dividends./QUOTE]
> 
> I guess I've always looked at day trading (or whatever it is you guys call it) as gambling. I can just as easily go up to the casino and play Blackjack - plunk down all the money in one hand.
> 
> I'm more like okiemom - I buy good quality stocks that I research and mostly buy stocks that you can buy direct. (I'm not going to pay a broker for something I can do myself! Of course, sending it by mail, you are at risk for the couple days the stock goes up and down until it's actually bought - or sold - but I'm in it for the long term anyhow.)
> 
> I don't have the time nor the resources to be buying and selling during the day. Besides, most of the stocks I buy end up giving me more money every quarter with dividends (which are re-investd automatically). Since I've been doing this for the past 5 years or so, I've done pretty well - only had one or two stocks that were duds.
> 
> I guess I'm just "old fashioned", but I'll stick with my plan of buying and holding. (Those dividends and stock gains do add up over the years.) And when prices fall, like they did several years ago - I don't panic and just continue to hold them, because with the lower stock prices, I get even more shares bought through the dividends when prices are higher.
> 
> Of course, what I own is mostly for retirement - and since I have 20 + years, I got plenty of time to ride the market (and rack up even more dividends).
> 
> And I don't get taxed until I sell the stock.
> 
> But hats off to you guys who do the daily trading thing!


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## willow_girl

Nothing wrong with what you're doing, Michael! 

I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone day trade with their rent money (yikes, no!). 

As far as retirement, I have 3 IRAs plus a TSP account left over from the years I worked for the federal government. Plus the usual checking, savings and CDs. So I'm gambling with only a fraction of my savings, and the old advice applies -- "Never bet more than you can afford to lose!" Luckily it hasn't come to that yet. 

I think it's good to diversify, and also known where your money's at and how it's performing. For years, I had employee-sponsored 401Ks with limited investment options. I wanted to save for retirement, but I didn't know anything about investing and didn't really care to learn. I'd open my quarterly statements and note whether the balance was up or down, but didn't stop to consider whether my investments were performing as well as they should be or that I needed to take charge of my money. I think a lot of people are in the same boat!


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## Michael W. Smith

willow_girl said:


> I think it's good to diversify, and also know where your money's at and how it's performing. For years, I had employee-sponsored 401Ks with limited investment options. I wanted to save for retirement, but I didn't know anything about investing and didn't really care to learn. I'd open my quarterly statements and note whether the balance was up or down, but didn't stop to consider whether my investments were performing as well as they should be or that I needed to take charge of my money. I think a lot of people are in the same boat!


I fully agree - most people don't bother with their 401(k) once they start it up. They look at the quarterly report just to see if their money has increased or decreased and might meet with the representative once in a while, but that's it.

Since starting the 401(k), I've always taken a look at least once a year if not twice to see if perhaps one fund isn't doing as well as a simiar one. And if it isn't figure out WHY and should I move my money from the fund not doing so well to the other one. You also should be rebalancing every so often as well.

I know one guy that I work with apparently ddn't look at anything - or even the quarterly statements. Usually twice a year, our employer includes a 401(k) change paper in your paycheck to see if you want to change anything - the percent taken out of your paycheck, to get into the 401(k), or to quit contributing altogether. If you want to change something you fill out the form - otherwise, you don't do anything and things continue as is.

Well, this guy got the form and apparently didn't read it completely. He must have thought the one sentence was to make a change, the other sentence was to not change anything. Anyway, he marked the sentence that said "I want to quit contributing to my 401(k)."

Now, I have no idea what percentage of his paycheck he had going into his 401(k), but it must not have been much. He never noticed the extra money he was now receiving in his paycheck (since none was taken out for the 401(k)), and it was almost a whole year before he finally noticed he wasn't contributing to it! 

He went into the office wanting to know just where his 401(k) contributions were going because it wasn't going into his account. :shrug: They told him (and showed him) where he had made the change - and he is still mad that our employer "screwed" him. You know - "It wasn't his fault."


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## clovis

Willow- Did you see SLW today?


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## willow_girl

You HAD to make me look, Clove! ound:

I am NOT going to calculate how much money I would have made if I'd held on to it, though ... 

I noticed yesterday that they have started offering a dividend. I imagine that gave a nice boost to the price ...

I don't have any dogs in the fight at the moment; have been waiting for my funds to settle. I'll be back in the game Monday, though!


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## mrpink

any one care to give there opinion on these two.
AFCE will be reporting on wed march the 9th. do you think this would be a good short term buy to flip?
MXC maybe a good candidate to by and hold for a little bit?


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## willow_girl

IMO:

AFCE is down almost $2 a share from its 52-week high in January. Ordinarily that would make it a good candidate for play according to my formula. The thing I don't like is that analysts are not big on this stock. Smartconsensus downgraded it to hold from buy on 1/23 and its stock price has went down 6.1% since. According to Reuters, "For the fourty (sp.) weeks ended 3 October 2010, AFC Enterprises, Inc.'s revenues decreased 3% to $112.2M."

I generally look for things that are trending up. I would probably pass on this one unless it starts to take off on Monday. (It doesn't seem to be getting much pre-report play so far.) 

OK, let's look at MXC. At first glance, I really liked the looks of this one! Again, down a bit from its 52-week high, but up on Friday (IIRC, the market was down overall) and up again in after-hours. But scratch a little deeper, and you find (according to PR Newswire):



> Mexco Energy Corporation (AMEX: MXC) today reported net income of $26,898 for the quarter ending December 31, 2010, the Company's third quarter of fiscal 2011, compared to net income of $167,145 for the same quarter of fiscal 2010.
> 
> Operating revenues in the third quarter of fiscal 2011 were $756,576, a decrease of 13% from $865,169 for the third quarter of fiscal 2010.
> 
> The average sales price for the quarter ending December 31, 2010 was $5.34 per Mcfe compared to $5.25 per Mcfe for the quarter ending December 31, 2009, an increase of 2%. Oil production decreased 8% and gas production decreased 15% during the third quarter of fiscal 2011 as compared to the third quarter of fiscal 2010. This decrease in oil and gas production is attributable to natural decline.
> 
> For the nine months ended December 31, 2010, the Company reported net income of $102,714, compared to $257,492 for the same period of fiscal 2010. Operating revenues increased 5% to $2,381,608 for the nine months ended December 31, 2010 from $2,269,640 for the same period of fiscal 2010.


I don't think I'd buy this stock to hold. I did put it on my list to watch ... if it sustains it current stock price, it might be a good candidate to play around the time of its next earnings report (May). 

Again, just my opinion! 

I started looking at the calendar last night, but didn't find anything I want. Will give it another go today! 

Here is one I missed! HOGS, a $19 stock up .22 cents on Friday and .75 in after hours trading. It reported over the weekend and beat analyst estimates. Might still get some play on Monday, but the time to buy it was last Wed. or Thurs. Darn it!!!


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## Guest

MXC is an extremely low float, easily manipulated stock that trades in exaggerated response to the oil market. Thus the move from $8 to $18 in 3 days as volume went from 2300 to 665,800. During the oil spike in 2008 it went from $5 to $55.


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## Halfway

stockfetcher.com is invaluable for screening and backtesting. I'll give them a plug because it is THE standard in screeners.

This market is running on QE2 and NOT fundamentals.....TA is tricky and fundamental analysis is almost harder.

Trading is not investing, handle it differently.

Cut losses quickly.....do not hold junk that has / is causing you pain...let it go.


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## willow_girl

Ahh, but will it do it again?!


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## mrpink

willow girl thanks for your opinions that is what I was wanting. looking at the chart it ran up in jan before earnings were released then has trended back down. I wondered if it would do it again this time. I'll watch it and see what happens. I'm not actually buying yet just paper trading trying to learn.

mxc being a low float would seem like a positive for trading in the short term. it would give you the movement in price needed to make a few bucks(or lose a few depending on how the stock moves). being that oil has been on the rise and looks to go further maybe it will be manipulated upward. again just trying to learn and understand a few things.
would mxc be a good candidate to both buy a position in and short at the same time?


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## Guest

mrpink said:


> would mxc be a good candidate to both buy a position in and short at the same time?


If you were to go long and short at the same time, there is absolutely no profit involved. for instance, if you were to go long and short at $10, and the stock went to $11, your long position would be up a dollar, but your short position would be down a dollar. Yet you would lose money because you would have to pay commissions on both trades.


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## willow_girl

> looking at the chart it ran up in jan before earnings were released then has trended back down. I wondered if it would do it again this time.


It might!  I always try to hedge my bets, though, by picking a company that looks like it's growing or increasing in profitability. 

Check out CRZO. Here's what one analyst had to say about it:



> S&P Financial Writer Frank Barone
> Operational Review March 02, 2011
> Income Statement Analysis & Financial Review
> Total revenues for the nine months ended September 30, 2010 were $102.4 million vs. $83.8 million in the prior year, advancing 22% year over year. Total costs and expenses fell 73%, and operating income was $20.9 million, vs. an operating loss of $221.3 million for last year. For the first three quarters of the fiscal year, net income was $45.9 million ($1.36 a share), vs. a loss of $136.4 million ($4.40 a share) in 2009.
> In the third quarter, total revenues were $30.5 million vs. $27.3 million in the prior year, growing by 12% year to year. Total costs and expenses fell 2%, and operating income for the quarter was $1.9 million, vs. an operating loss of $1.9 million in the prior-year period. The net income was $24.4 million ($0.69 a share), vs. a loss of $4.8 million ($0.15 a share) in the third quarter of 2009.


It reports Thursday. Was up on Friday. It's on my short list.


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## mrpink

I saw crzo yesterday when I was looking at the earning calender for the upcoming week. My issue is that I'm only going to start with $1000 which means I could only buy 27 shares. would I be better off the buy a lower priced stock with more volatility? thats one issue I've been wrestling with


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## clovis

mrpink-

I think you are better off with lower priced stock if you only have $1000 to gamble.

Just do the math. If your 27 shares went up $1 each, that leaves you with $27 gross profit. After you deduct your trading fees, with Scottrade they are going to be $7 for the buy, and $7 for the sell, you are going to have a whopping $13 profit. 

I used to watch Alcoa every day, and it had lots of ups and downs. At $16.50 a share, you'll get more bang for your buck....about 60 shares. Still not great, but better than 27 shares.

IMO, it is going to be harder to catch a $1 ride on the lower priced stocks. It happens every day, but not as much as the $30 and up shares.

If you can build up your account, even if it is just by $200 or $300, it really starts to change the math.

On the other hand, every trade in the positive helps your situation. If you can pull off a $13 profit 10 times a month, in just a few short months, your account will grow, allowing you to by even more shares.

HTH.


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## clovis

Willow- 

I still think that SLW has legs if you are still watching it.


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## mrpink

I have done the math over and over. been struggling with this very issue for years. a $35 stock would need to increase about 2.8% to equal a $1 increase. a $17 stock would have to increase about 5.8% to equal a $1 increase. either way you look at it I really need about a 5% increase from any stock regardless of price. is a higher priced stock more likely to increase 5% then a lower priced one? I think for me I need to find stocks that have more volatility which of course increases my chances to lose money as well. or either pick a stock that has a good chance to increase over several days and hold it longer. I will just have to find my comfort level I know, but I do like to get other peoples opinions


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## clovis

mrpink said:


> I have done the math over and over. been struggling with this very issue for years. a $35 stock would need to increase about 2.8% to equal a $1 increase. a $17 stock would have to increase about 5.8% to equal a $1 increase. either way you look at it I really need about a 5% increase from any stock regardless of price. is a higher priced stock more likely to increase 5% then a lower priced one? I think for me I need to find stocks that have more volatility which of course increases my chances to lose money as well. or either pick a stock that has a good chance to increase over several days and hold it longer. I will just have to find my comfort level I know, but I do like to get other peoples opinions


I think you are on the right path.

I'm sure you've considered working longer trades where you hold a stock for several weeks and wait for the gain in that time frame. Can you just work the safer bets until you get your account built up?

FWIW, I understand where you are coming from. I am in the same boat. I don't have the money right now to be sinking into the market, even though I see plenty of bargains. Take SLW for example. I've been watching that stock for several years, and it had a hard pullback recently to $28. I only had $400 in my account so about 14 shares was going to be the best that I could do. It is at 44.96 right now. At the time, I wrestled with whether it would be worth jacking with 14 shares...and now I know that it would have been an awesome play with a $220 profit.

The bigger issue is that you are in the market and trying, which beats 90% of most people's investing. I meet people all the time that say stupid things like "You need $10,000 at bare minimum to get in the stock market", which is pure rubbish IMO. Those are the folks that are just waiting for their big day to come, as if they are going to hit it rich with an inheritance or the lottery. They've missed years and years and years of investing and making money, while folks like us are slowly growing month by month.

The most important point that I would like to share is this:

If you are small time like me, and have to make every trade count, you'll be a wiser and better investor who is more aware of the stock, market, conditions, etc. I am a super conservative investor, yet I think I am a better trader because of it.


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## willow_girl

Great post Clovis!

I picked up 200 shares each of CRZO and AEO this morning. Right now I'm down $90 bucks, ouch! Well, we'll see how it plays out, I guess. 

Luckily I have to go to work now, so I can't sit here staring at the streaming quotes and panicking. ound:


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## willow_girl

Well I guess I'm batting .500 for the day. CRZO paid out like a slot machine! Although (as usual) I muffed it up. Since the market was down on Friday, I didn't want to expect too much, so I bought 200 shares and set my sell at +.50, which was exactly the wrong decision as the stock shot up over $1! Oy. I was at work and couldn't keep an eye on things so it sold for a net $80. 

AEO bounced around a bit and ended the day $32 in the hole. I think I'll see how it does in the morning before I make any decisions. Normally I don't invest in retail, F&B, or a couple other sectors, but I liked this company because it's local and I actually know a couple people who work at its HQ downtown. (No, they didn't give me any insider trading tips!) But I did read online that it's been the subject of a lot of insider buys recently, which seems like a good sign. I may hang on to it until the end of the month; the dividend will pay my trading fees. 

Mr. Pink, I was giving some thought to your situation today. It seems in day trading, the transaction fees would eat you alive. What about investing in a nice fund? I have a few shares of an index fund called PRF in my IRA ... think I've held it for about a year. It's up 16% since I bought it. (Can't take credit for this one; it was DH's pick.) It pays a dividend, too, which is another way to maximize your gain. Just a thought!


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## mrpink

willow I guess you didn't catch that spike in aeo at 3:48 it jumped up to $15.85. it only lasted a few minutes though. as to my situation I'm pretty set on doing some trading might have to hold a little longer and\or take a little higher risk but I feel comfortable about it. I took some time last night a made me a spread sheet to run some numbers in. the fee does make a big difference though. I stumbled on sogotrade this morning there fee is only $3 per trade so I modified my spread sheet to compare scottrades $14 round trip to sogotrades $6 round trip and found out that $8 difference adds up. I do believe it is doable though. besides before I decided to do this then I made sure I was ok with myself if I lost it all. I'm going to paper trade on my spread sheet for a bit and work out my plan of attack the best I can. so expect to be bugged some more by me


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## willow_girl

That's an excellent idea, to shop around and keep your trading fees as low as possible, especially as there is so much data and analysis out there that can be had for free! 

So AEO went up to $15.85? I had my sell set at $15.87! 

Oh well, can't win 'em all!


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## clovis

Does anyone on this thread short stocks? 

I understand the premise, but have never done it. If I could have been in the market today, one of the stocks I saw was a ready candidate for shorting...I would have easily made $1 a share.


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## Bret

It might be OK if you also owned the underlying stock. It is a way to get hurt really bad if you do not own the stock, and the price goes against you. The losses can be infinate.

As people move to cover their shorts, it can keep driving the price up, if there are no shares to be had.

editing now--I am sorry, I did not answer your question. I have not shorted stocks.


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## willow_girl

I haven't shorted stocks. Not that brave!

AEO was a learning experience for me. Right after I bought it, it TANKED on rumors the CEO was leaving. I was down over $100 last night. The earnings report that came out this morning before the market opened wasn't too promising -- it beat analysts' predictions by a penny, but same-store sales were down and the CEO is in fact leaving. I got nervous and set my sell at the break-even point, hoping not to take a hit or have to hold the stock for months.

Of course it shot up over 90 cents, d'oh! If I'd hung on, I would have made a few bucks. As it is, I'm just glad to have gotten out without a loss. No more retail stocks for this girl!!!


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## Guest

I'd rather be short a position than be long. moves down are often horrific. Look at FNSR, a fiber optic company. down 15 bucks on lowered outlook. People can be panicked into dumping a stock that is in free-fall, but can rarely be panicked into buying one. 
Most of my trading now is in index and commodities futures, and option straddles on individual stocks. But looking back over the past several months, 80% or so of my trades are short. I do want to point out that I actually trade, I never hold over(except straddles) and couldn't care less about the fundamentals of a company. I trade solely off chart formations, and my own home grown indicators.


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## mrpink

mrpink said:


> any one care to give there opinion on these two.
> AFCE will be reporting on wed march the 9th. do you think this would be a good short term buy to flip?
> MXC maybe a good candidate to by and hold for a little bit?


just thought I would update on this. on my paper trading sunday night I penciled in a buy of AFCE at mondays opening price. on my spread sheet I entered a 5% profit after trading fees round trip and it calculated what I needed to sell at. I would have made $50 today. so willows strategy would have profited me today.

mxc has tanked each day since monday but it was a buy and hold option so I am at a paper loss as of right now. of course I would have still be holding them as I didn't plan to make a profit in just a few days with them.


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## mrpink

opinions on these two anyone? HSOL and ATU both report next Thursday. I would be looking at these short term following willow girl's approach.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

could someone explain short and long stocks? I am currently reading the reminiciences book, and he talks about that in there, but I don't quite understand.


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## mrpink

very basic if you are short in a stock you are betting it will go down in value if you are long you are betting it goes up in value


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## willow_girl

> opinions on these two anyone? HSOL and ATU both report next Thursday. I would be looking at these short term following willow girl's approach.


Both of those look OK to me! China stocks have taken a beating in recent months and that might hurt HSOL. ATU has seen some fluctuations of $1 or more over the short term, which is encouraging. I'll put them on my watch list too!

The market forecast looks pretty grim today. :teehee:


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## MNBobcat

willow_girl said:


> The market forecast looks pretty grim today. :teehee:


May be a good time to buy.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

so short and longs are different than actually buying a stock? So if you are betting a short and the stock goes up, you are losing on your bet and you have to sell before you lose too much? can you hold on to those into eternity just like buying a stock?


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## TnAndy

Buying long is the "normal" way you buy a stock. You buy it, and it's yours. ( sort of ) You are "long".

Selling short is a promise. You sell at a certain price, and hope it goes lower. Say you sell short GM at 10, and hope it goes to 5. You then "buy to cover" at 5, (because often, you didn't have GM to sell, and borrowed the shares to deliver in the first place..so you have to replace those borrowed shares) and actually deliver the shares to whoever bought the other side of the trade. You make 5 bucks. ( less commission and margin interest if you borrowed money to do this ). BUT if GM goes to 15, and you decide it might never get back to 10, and you buy to cover at that point, you're out 5 bucks. Also, if you are borrowing the money to sell short ( in other words, you don't have enough cash or other stocks in your account ), you are on "margin". At some point, your broker will decide you are past the point they want to carry your risk, and tell you to put some more money in your account .......a "margin call".


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## clovis

I have a dumb question about shorting stocks:

Is shorting only available to those with margin accounts (or credit with the brokerage) because no one knows how much the stock will rise or fall?

Is it possible to short stocks using cash you have on hand, and not use the credit from a margin account?

Sorry to ask such a dumb question!!!!


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## TnAndy

You sell short IF you have a pretty good idea a stock is going down for some reason. Say, for example, you start looking a Netflix and the Redbox things, and think "hmmmmm....that's probably going to put a hurt on Blockbuster stock".....so you sell Blockbuster short. As time goes on, your theory proves right, and Blockbuster sinks lower and lower...at some point, you cover your short sale, and hopefully make a boatload of money.

You can also take advantage of daily swings. Say you watch a stock for months and months....you notice it starts the day at 45, and often ends the day about the same.....but DURING the day, it may swing from a low of 44.50 to a high of 45.25 You decide to sell 1,000 shares at 45.15, and then as it goes down to 44.80, you "buy to cover". Spread there is .25 x 1,000 shares, you made $250 ( less commission ).

That is true day trading. Problem is, you have to WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK....because this may the be day they announce some REALLY great news, and the stock shoots up 2 bucks....NOW you're really in the hole ! So, you have to set a limit sale on how far you're willing to go on the loosing side....say you set a "buy to cover" at 45.50, so the most you will lose is (45.50-45.15) .35/sh.

I have done this, and made and lost money. Personally, unless you are willing to sit in front of a screen all day, it's hard to make anything.....and even then, a fair amount of plain ole Las Vegas luck is involved.

A better way, IMHO, to bet long and short is by using index funds that are based on a whole market of something.

One I use, for example, is SPXU....it is a 3x short index of the S&P500. IF you think the market at a whole has topped ( and I do ), then this fund lets you short the WHOLE S&P500 index.

For example, the other day, I bought SPXU at 16.30. ( The S&P was around 1322) 

Today, S&P is around 1296 and SPXU is running 17.24. , because the market has been down for the last couple days ( middle east fears, unemployment numbers above expectations, economy in general ).

I personally think ( my opinion only ) that the market has topped, and will continue to decline over the spring/summer. The S&P could easily go under 1,000 again ( hit 666 for a low in 2008 ). That is a 30% decline.

Here's the interesting thing about SPXU...it's a 3x short.....in other words, if the S&P declines 1%, the fund goes UP 3% ( roughly, less fees inside the fund ). SO, if I'm right, and the whole market is headed lower, a 30% decline will make my profit about 90%.

Now, at some point, I'll set a sell order with a stop so I lock in some profits. Say around 18, I put a sell in with a stop at 17.50. That means even if I'm out doing something else, and the market DOES happen to pick up, and SPXU goes down ( remember, it's a reverse fund ), then at least I lock in $1.20/sh profit. Now I'm in cash, deciding which way the market is going.

OR I don't set a stop, and if the market goes up a bit ( and SPXU goes down ), I just ride it out.....waiting on where I think it WILL ultimately go ( lower ).


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## TnAndy

clovis said:


> Is it possible to short stocks using cash you have on hand, and not use the credit from a margin account?


Yes, you can do that. I'm not familiar with other brokers, but with Etrade, you have a "cash value" amount on your account, then a "margin amount" also listed ( assuming you have applied FOR a margin account, which you must to sell short ).....that margin amount is about 2-3 times your cash amount. That is your line of credit with the broker. It's temping to use it, especially IF you seriously day trade, because you can quickly see the MORE SHARES you buy, the smaller the swing has to be to make more money. 100shares x .10 is $10....but if you could buy 1,000, then that same 10 cent swing is $100. That's WHY people use margin.

The DOWNSIDE is you have to understand it can get you in VERY HOT WATER real quick if the stock price doesn't move your way....it really IS gambling of the casino type !

Also, you can NOT sell short in IRA type accounts. ( but you CAN buy/sell index type funds like SPXU that sorta do it for you )


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## Guest

Anybody seriously wanting to mess around in the stock market needs to have a clear plan. Any really good plan will be hedged. lets say that I think the market will go down. As noted previously, I tend to take more short entries than long. Now, If I see that, say, Stock A tends to fall harder than it moves up, i.e. on a really bad day, it may fall 5%, but on a really good day, it may rise only 2%. Then I find another stock(B) that rises faster than it falls, inverse action to stock A. If I were to go short stock A and long stock B, then on a bad day, A would go my way 5% and B go against me only 2%. On a good day, B would go my way 5% and A only go against me 2%. With an equal amount of money in each position, I would make the 3% difference, no matter what happened. This is known as hedging. Its often done with index futures which respond at different rates of return, and commodities futures. Also index and commodity ETF's. At one time, it was possible to rig a good hedge trade with the dollar v euro, metals, or oil. 
Other hedged trades that I like include option strangles and straddles. As time goes by, the "time premium" erodes. For instance, right now, the 41(at the strike) calls on USO(oil proxy) are 46 cents for the one expiring tomorrow, 90 cents for the one expiring next Friday, and 1.84 for the one expiring April 16. If the options were expiring exactly right now, they would be worthless(USO price at the time of this post being 40.96). So, what you're buying is the hope that it'll move up between now and then. you pay 41 cents for a day of hope, 90 for a week and a day, and 1.84 for a month and a week. It would make more sense to me to sell that same hope. So, if I were to sell the April 16 USO 41 call for the 1.84, you can hope, and every day, I'll get a little bit of the time premium. Now, what would happen to me if oil were to pop even higher, and those calls be worth something on April 16? I could just lose everything over the 1.84 if oil were to close over 42.84. OR... I could hedge my position. I could buy the stock now, then sell that call, its called "Covered Call Selling" so no matter what, I'm guaranteed that 1.84. Not only that, if oil closed April 16 under 41, I keep the stock AND the 1.84 and sell another call for May. OR, I could sell the 41 call for 1.84 and sell a 41 put for 1.90. It can't very well close over 41 and under 41 both. If it closed April 16 at exactly 41, I collect 1.84 plus 1.90, or 3.74. That protects me against a move in either direction of up to 3.74. Of course, if I don't like the direction things are taking, in a few days, or weeks, I can close my positions, and still reap the benefit of those days of time deterioration. Its not as exciting as day trading, but really, really steady.


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## clovis

Thank you for the replies.

I've been following the market since I was in 7th grade, and had a shop teacher that took the time to teach me about it. He spent about 3 or 4 minutes each day teaching me the basics. I took that knowledge and traded some stocks during high school, and made a pile of cash...at least for me, with what little I had...did pretty good for a high school kid. 

At the same time, I've never shorted a stock. I am adamantly against borrowing money, especially for gambling.

I do watch a mining stock that closely follows one of the precious metals. Since the metal trades internationally, it is easy to follow it at night, and then predict what the US market will do when it opens. 

What is funny is that years ago, when I was in college, a good friends father tried to teach me how to follow some of the mining stocks. I was too broke then to really understand. He might as well been talking to the man on the moon, for I was wondering if I had enough gas money to make the drive home, LOL. It all really makes sense today though. Isn't it funny how you learn something 20 years prior, and then you wake up one morning and say "A HA!!!"???


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## clovis

FWIW:

One of our stocks, trusty old LLY, paid their quarterly dividend today, and it is burning a hole in my pocket! Too bad it is just a tiny amount in comparison to what some of you are playing with. 

This has been a sleepless night, so I've spent the time looking for more high dividend yielding stocks to purchase, all part of the long term buy and hold plan I have working. I'm just trying to build dividend income for those retirement years down the road.


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## Guest

I made a couple trades early in the morning both yesterday and Tuesday and was outside messing around before the sun came up. Today, I whipped myself into a froth for an hour, finally I decided to call it quits. 6 single contract efforts, each bounced around mercilessly by the uncertainty in the markets surrounding Japan and the middle east. I even got stopped out going long oil for a bounce at $100(its up 50 cents now, or $500 per contract from my entry). SO, being a "rules based" trader, I quit. At least for the morning. one hour, 6 trades, I'm up $48.02 after commissions. Beats the heck out of pushing my luck and having one of those huge losing days. After all, $48 bucks is $48. You can't win 'em all, BUT if you're up $48 on your worst days, you'll be back to try again. That is the entire concept of successful trading. Your focus needs to be on protecting your assets rather than the potential gain. Today ain't my day, I'm taking mine and going home.
ETA: came back into the market, clear headed, around 3:30. Shorted TF(Russell 2000 index futures) at it made the high for the day and rode it into the close for 50 ticks($500). Like the old Ameritrade day trader commercials use to say.... BAMM!!!! LOL.


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## Michael W. Smith

clovis said:


> This has been a sleepless night, so I've spent the time looking for more high dividend yielding stocks to purchase, all part of the long term buy and hold plan I have working. I'm just trying to build dividend income for those retirement years down the road.


How about these stocks that you can buy direct?:

Verizon Currently $35.70 Dividend $1.95 / year Yield 5.30%
Hawaiian Electric $24.39 Dividend $1.24 / year Yield 5.00%
Middlesex Water Co. $17.65 Dividend $ .73 / year Yield 4.00% 
York Water Co. $16.50 Dividend $ .52 / year Yield 3.20%


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## clovis

Michael W. Smith said:


> How about these stocks that you can buy direct?:
> 
> Verizon Currently $35.70 Dividend $1.95 / year Yield 5.30%
> Hawaiian Electric $24.39 Dividend $1.24 / year Yield 5.00%
> Middlesex Water Co. $17.65 Dividend $ .73 / year Yield 4.00%
> York Water Co. $16.50 Dividend $ .52 / year Yield 3.20%


Thanks man!!!!

I really like VZ, and have been watching it for a long time. I'll look into some of your other suggestions.

It is completely unlike me to have a "burning a hole in my pocket" mentality, but I am dying to reinvest these dividends!!! I want in the market with some more dividend payers!!!!


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## willow_girl

Way to go Zong!!!!

I was thinking of picking up two stocks this morning, but I was a little nervous as to whether we'd see a recovery or a "Black Friday" scenario. Decided to sit this one out and get back in the game Monday, especially since I wouldn't be home at all today to keep an eye on things.

Just checked and one stock was up $1.34 at closing; the other, 66 cents. NO GUTS, NO GLORY! LOL


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## willow_girl

Monday morning buys:

CRZO (200)

EGY (300)

Crossing fingers!


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## Halfway

What are your stops? Did they hit? Target?

March is massive volatility month. Things are not always as they appear.

I tend to lower my number of contracts traded and loosen stops because they will get smacked hard and reverse if your not careful.


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## willow_girl

Mixed results today for trader Willow! 

Half, I generally set my stocks to sell when they make $100. 

DH was watching my play at the opening (I had to go to work) and told me CRZO moved at 9:39. Yay! It then plunged by ~$1.40 before rallying to finish the day up by 64 cents. Whew! It reports tomorrow before the market opens ... I'm very curious to see how it performs (but glad I don't have any money riding on it, LOL!).

The sale brings my net total for the year to $1,208. 

My other stock, EGY, dropped 20 cents to finish the day $49 in the hole. It wasn't scheduled to report until the 15th, but issued a day early, I guess, and missed analyst estimates. Oy! So I guess it's going to be hanging around for awhile in my portfolio ... 

Win some, lose some! :shrug:

Half, thanks for the tip about March being volatile! I didn't know that ... I wasn't doing this last March.


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## Halfway

No worries Willow. Losers don't always rebound, don't hesitate to cut them. 

Best of success!


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## willow_girl

So far I haven't had to sell anything at a loss, and I've never held a stock longer than about 3 months. 

We'll see! :shrug:

I just checked and CRZO missed analyst estimates, too, and is down more than $5 a share in after-hours. GULP!!!


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## clovis

Even though the market is down again for three days in a row, I do see mixed results on the stocks I am watching. Many stocks are up today. 

I hope you all are making piles of cash!!!!


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## clovis

I have a few questions for my fellow investors:

1. Most importantly, what do you think of REITs as a longer term, buy and hold investment for dividend income?

2. Does anyone watch the international or overnight markets to see what the US markets might do the next day? Where can I find an easy source for that information? Is there one good website that you use to follow how the markets did overnight?


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## willow_girl

Clovis, my husband really likes REITs, but anything involving real estate just scares the debbil out of me! :teehee:

I don't have an answer to your second question.

I had a really bad week in the market! Not only is my EGY still down, but I bought PPO just a day before company officials announced they were selling off 4.5 million shares at a discounted price! 

Dropped like a rock, needless to say. 

Oh well -- out of 30 or so trades, I was bound to pick a couple dogs eventually. 

Holding both to see what they do over the next few weeks.


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## Halfway

clovis said:


> I have a few questions for my fellow investors:
> 
> 1. Most importantly, what do you think of REITs as a longer term, buy and hold investment for dividend income?
> 
> 2. Does anyone watch the international or overnight markets to see what the US markets might do the next day? Where can I find an easy source for that information? Is there one good website that you use to follow how the markets did overnight?


I trade all hours if the setup and conditions warrant it. 

finviz "futures" are near real time and will show GLOBEX price levels.


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## InvalidID

clovis said:


> I have a few questions for my fellow investors:
> 
> 1. Most importantly, what do you think of REITs as a longer term, buy and hold investment for dividend income?
> 
> 2. Does anyone watch the international or overnight markets to see what the US markets might do the next day? Where can I find an easy source for that information? Is there one good website that you use to follow how the markets did overnight?


 PCL (Plum Creek Timber) has been alright to me. I'm not sure if it's exactly what you're thinking as far as REITs but the dividend is fair and the beauty of timberland is if prices are down you just hold onto your trees. 
If I was looking to buy in again I'd wait for a pull back though. @ 42.75 I'm thinking it's kinda high.


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## clovis

Any recent trades, anyone?


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## willow_girl

Seems a girl can't make a buck in the market this week! I'm still holding on to the same 3 stocks, and am $300 upside-down at the moment. GRRR! 

My husband keeps reminding me how he lost 80 grand in the dot.com bust. Needless to say, I'm not getting any sympathy on the homefront! 

The market giveth, and the market taketh away ... *sigh*


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## Guest

The reason it's called daytrading is that you get in, you get out. Same day. Once you take a position and start holding, instead of accepting that sometimes you lose, you are what is known as an investor. In other words, you're no longer a trader, you're a "hold and hope"er. There is an old saying about "hope in one hand".....


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## willow_girl

You may be right about that, Zong! I guess we'll see.


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## clovis

A "hold and hoper"?

That defines my entire investment strategy!


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## willow_girl

Yeah, sometimes it works out OK!

I have 2 stocks I bought last year in my IRA portfolio. Picked up one in April and the other in December ... they are up 16 and 18% respectively. 

Clovis, I know you like precious metals, so you may want to take a look at the one ... it's a gold mining stock (CGC).

My hubby has been keeping an eye on it in my portfolio and now I see he has an order in to buy some tomorrow ... of course he'll have 1,000 shares to my 100, LOL!


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## Michael W. Smith

clovis said:


> Most importantly, what do you think of REITs as a longer term, buy and hold investment for dividend income?


Clovis, I've been investing in Vanguard's REIT Index Fund for quite a few years.

Year to date return 01/01/11 - 03/24/11 2.94%
1 year return 38.73%
5 year return 3.11%
10 year return 11.58%
Since inception 05/13/96 10.91%

As you can see, this investment has served me well! (Well, for my wife actually, I initially invested her into a ROTH IRA back in 1998.)

I believe REITS have to give any profit for the year back to the shareholders - so that usually makes for a nice payout at the end of the year.

Minimum initial investment is $3000.00. Or I thing Vanguard will allow you to get in with less if you have monthly contributions from a savings or checking account.


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## willow_girl

Friday was an interesting day in the market for me. For sure!

My PPO shot up (it actually gained $3.60 yesterday!) and I unloaded it for my usual $80 net profit ... this after the CEO and friends dumped 4.5 million shares, and some sort of FTC regulatory action was announced. I figured I'd be holding that stock a longgggg time in order to get my money back. Not so! Whew.

On the flip side, SNX beat analyst estimates by a penny, and was soundly spanked for it, losing nearly 8 percent of its value in Friday's session (ouch!). So I'm $300 upside-down on it at the moment. *sigh* Of course I've seen this before (it's one reason why I try to sell BEFORE the report comes out) but I'm a little surprised it happened in this case, as there was NO run-up in price in the days preceding the report. 

My EGY has been picking up a few pennies every day. I'm still down about 3% from the starting point, but hopefully I'll be able to unload it, too, eventually. 

Tomorrow I will make my picks for next week!


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## lonelyfarmgirl

ok, I opened an account at Scottrade today. I didn't put any money in it yet, just looking around the site and I watched a tutorial. That brought up a question. Why would a person have more than one account?

Also, I didn't see futures anywhere. Are those traded somewhere totally different?

One other question I had. I wondered before what actually makes a stock go up or down. I would assume the value of the product, items, services, etc... 
So does that mean when the price of something goes up, the stock goes down because less people can afford to buy, so less are buying?

Like for example, cotton is skyrocketing, so does this mean stocks in clothing companies will drop because they are having to raise prices, so less people are buying new clothing?


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## willow_girl

Congrats LFG! You are on your way. 

You are correct in that a lot of things can make stock prices go up or down. But within any sector, some companies will perform better than others, so it's tricky. That said, I usually stay out of retail, restaurants and entertainment, and stick to boring industrial stocks. LOL


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## lonelyfarmgirl

where are the futures. those interest me the most.


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## Guest

I don't think Scottrade offers commodity or index futures. If you search their website under products, you find no references to futures of any sort. If you are interested in trading futures, you need to check out brokerage firms that allow futures trading. Then you need to find out the margin minimums for each firm, and the commissions. If you get a commission of more or less $2.00 per contract per trade on an index future, you're about right. Some firms may ask that you have a minimum amount in your account to trade various products, and that may vary from firm to firm. This page shows the minimum amount needed to trade various futures through Interactive brokers. Click on "futures" http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/p.php?f=margin


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## Halfway

A suggestion for anyone looking to explore the world of investing, whether for self directed IRA's, day trading, long term investing etc., is to open the minimum sized account for one of the big discount brokers first.

Here is why and what to look for.

* do they offer self directed IRA?

* do they offer good historical chart and fundamental data.

Is the cost per trade below $10?

These are just a few things, but the biggies (Scottrade, TD. Etrade etc.) have some really good research info that you will need an account to access.

I say open with the account minimum because you will get full use of the features and have the ability to add to the account if needed.

Now, if you see day trading or futures / foreign exchange trading/investing in your future, look to the heavy hitters such as Interactive Brokers or Mirus. Use the tools of the high priced brokers (TD Etrade etc.), and execute with the low cost providers.

Why spend $7-10 per trade when you can spend $2.50? It's the same stock.

Why limit yourself to stocks and ETF's when you can trade futures or currencies?

Hope that makes sense. Day trading for any transaction over $5 per trade is giving up the edge and placing the profit odds deeper towards the house.

Experience talking. eep:


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## willow_girl

> Now, if you see day trading or futures / foreign exchange trading/investing in your future, look to the heavy hitters such as Interactive Brokers or Mirus. Use the tools of the high priced brokers (TD Etrade etc.), and execute with the low cost providers.
> 
> Why spend $7-10 per trade when you can spend $2.50? It's the same stock.


I was discussing this with my husband just the other day. 

His argument was that eTrade has been around for awhile and even has brick-and-mortar facilities, so he feels it's safer. 

What happens to your money if one of those smaller brokerages goes under? 

If you've got a few grand at stake, it might be worth the risk, but once you get up into six figures, hmmm ... :teehee:


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## Guest

willow_girl said:


> I was discussing this with my husband just the other day.
> 
> His argument was that eTrade has been around for awhile and even has brick-and-mortar facilities, so he feels it's safer.
> 
> What happens to your money if one of those smaller brokerages goes under?
> 
> If you've got a few grand at stake, it might be worth the risk, but once you get up into six figures, hmmm ... :teehee:


Well, lets see. Etrade has 3.6 billion dollars cash on hand. Interactive brokers has 20.29 billion dollars cash on hand. Who can give you your money back?? (numbers from yahoo finance). 
The brokerage firm isn't playing with your money unless you blindly give it over to them to invest in one of their custom built mutual funds or something. Accounts in brokerage firms are insured much the same way that accounts in banks are insured.
ETA: the reason that IB has so much more cash on hand than Etrade is that heavy players trust IB. Etrade is mostly for smallish traders. Nobody in their right mind will put 10-100 million dollars on the line with Etrades interface. On the other hand, IB's trading platform is one of the best in the world, I can actually see my trades execute in real time. I can see the volumes as they change on bids and asks, not only current at the money, but the next 20 or so each way. I see every single transaction, the price, the bid and ask at tha moment, and the size of the transaction.
Comparing Etrade and Scottrade to IB or Tradestation is like comparing Macdonalds to a 5 star restaurant. Sure, Macdonalds is a restaurant. sort of.


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## Allen W

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> where are the futures. those interest me the most.


You do understand when trading futures you have to cover the downside of your contract?


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## Halfway

willow_girl said:


> I was discussing this with my husband just the other day.
> 
> His argument was that eTrade has been around for awhile and even has brick-and-mortar facilities, so he feels it's safer.
> 
> What happens to your money if one of those smaller brokerages goes under?
> 
> If you've got a few grand at stake, it might be worth the risk, but once you get up into six figures, hmmm ... :teehee:


Actually, etrade scares me with solvency and TD ameritrade commercials are insulting. Both are too expensive to trade with unless you are buying massive blocks a couple times a year for position or investment bundles. I think Scott is the most stable of the 3, cheapest, and the most bang for the buck. I have the Elite platform as well, and it is very nice.

Interactive Brokers is a granddaddy, not a little guy. Too many benefits to name, but it does have it all. If you need something more specific, hundreds of developers build software for IB's API, so you can automate to your heart's desire.

I don't play with questionable brokers with my money, neither should anyone else.

Oh yeah, I would only touch options if a person can afford to "write" them. Do NOT buy options. Time is your enemy and a thousand mathematical models prove it. Many folks think they can leverage with options and make large returns. That, in itself is true. Making it work over any period of time makes the brokers very rich.

My $.02. The markets are the grand arena. :rock:

Good trading all.


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## Guest

I like options in a straddle or strangle. Also credit spreads. In each case, you lock in the potential profit while limiting your potential losses. I usually prefer selling the positions as to buying them, because that way the time deterioration works for you.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Allen W said:


> You do understand when trading futures you have to cover the downside of your contract?


I really don't know a whole lot about the trading of anything. Thats why I ask, read and learn. What I do know, is 9 times out of 10, I can sit here and say, next year, xyz is going to shoot through the roof, and I am right. Been doing it for at least 5 years. Getting sick of being right and having nothing to show for it. 

I knew cotton was going to go up before it did. I seen the spike in cattle and sheep and wheat coming a mile away, and I knew Carrie Underwood was going to win when I saw her very first audition. Its about time I make my knowledge pay. Just not quite sure how.


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## Allen W

LFG
get the money you intend to invest in futures in cash, a trash can (metal), and a box of matches. Burn the money, if you can't you aren't ready to play the futures game. Good advice or not I don't know, I have never had any money to burn. I doubt if you can find anywhere to trade futures on line more then likely you will have to use an actual broker.


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## willow_girl

Re: which brokerage to use: I was merely passing on my husband's thoughts, FWIW. We didn't discuss specific companies. 

I have considered going with a cheaper company, but it's convenient for me to use eTrade ... especially since he is my margin account when I overextend. Heh! :teehee:

Today's pick: WOR.


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## clovis

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> ok, I opened an account at Scottrade today.


You are going to like Scottrade if you want to trade stocks. 

I really like the site, and the local office has been AWESOME so far.


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## Halfway

Allen W said:


> *I doubt if you can find anywhere to trade futures on line more then likely you will have to use an actual broker*.


 
Ummmm...just the opposite. No need to doubt. There are a couple dozen on-line brokers willing to leverage away all your money on futures.

On futures; I would not "trade" unless you have at least 40k in your account. You can trade the ES with 10k, but a trade gone wrong will turn you into "scared money" and your actions will likely take you out of the trade and the market. Seen it more than once.

LFG...there are ETF's that will do what you want to do without as much risk as futures. The problem between knowing what will happen and actually profiting from it is TIMING. Drawdown of a few thousand to make several thousand causes people pain. They tend to sell at the bottom and buy at the top. The market has a way of extracting the most pain from the most people.

Not trying to be combative to anyone by any means, but much research is needed for the markets. They tend to kill the uninformed retail trader. Shoot, they kill their share of hedge fund and mutual fund managers as well, hehehe.


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## Allen W

I was sure if I was wrong some body would correct me. More then one way to get a question answered.


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## Halfway

Allen W said:


> I was sure if I was wrong some body would correct me. More then one way to get a question answered.











Well, here is a list of brokers. Well over half are ONLINE and offer futures. You do not need to contact an actual broker.

Hope this helps answer the question. 

A.B WatleyACE COMMODITY TRADINGAdvanced FuturesAdvantageFuturesAjax FuturesAlaris Trading PartnersAlaronAlliance Investment ManagementAMP Global ClearingAngus JacksonApexFutures.comAskobidAssent LLC (Formerly Andover Trading)Azurite MarketsBlack Box BrokersBright Commodity BrokerBright TradingCannon TradingCharles Schwab Active TraderChoiceTradeCMC MarketsCMS ForexCobra TradingCrosslandCyberTrader (Merged w/Charles Schwab)daytradeaustria.comDBFXDeCarley TradingDeep Discount TradingDeltaStockDirect Access EliteDorman TradingDukascopyEasy ForexECHOtradeECNbrokerEminilocal.comEminisEquity StationETrade ProExpo Futures & OptionsExpressFutures.comFarr FinancialFidelity Active TraderFinotec Group Inc.Firstrade Securities Inc.Forex and Futures InternationalForex Club Financial CompanyForex Worldwide Training and SupportForex YardFOREX.comFuture Path TradingFX SolutionsFXCM (Forex Capital Markets)FXDDFXOpenGar Wood SecuritiesGCI Financial LtdGenesis SecuritiesGFTGlobalfutures.comGO FuturesGrace Financial GroupHold Brothers On-Line Investment ServicesIFC MarketsIkon Global MarketsINFINITY BROKERAGEInteractive BrokersIronbeamJust 2 TradeLightspeed TradingLime BrokerageLotus Brokerage ServicesMach Pro Trading LtdMarkeTrade.comMastel Grain CompanyMastertrader.comMB TradingMF GlobalMF Global CanadaMG Financial GroupMirus FuturesmyTrackNDX TradingNexTrend SecuritiesNoble TradingOandaODL SecuritiesOne FinancialOpen E CryOption Investments, IncOptionsHouseoptionsXpressPFG Best Peregrine Financial GroupPhillip CapitalPost Rock GlobalPreferred TradePrestige Capital, LLCPro EminiProTrade SecuritiesQuestradeRandolph Read Futures and OptionsRCG


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## Halfway

Part 2

DirectReal Fast TraderRealFastTraderRedSky Financial (Now ITG)Remote Day TraderRJOFuturesRushTrade (Now Tera Nova)Saxo BankScottradeSlipka TradingSogo EliteSonic FuturesSpeed TraderStock UsaSuccess TradeSwift TradeswissDirektTD AmeritradeTerra Nova OnlineTerra Nova-MBThe Trade ProsthinkorswimTrade Desk AmericaTrade FreedomTrade PortalTrade Pro FuturesTrade Wall StreetTradeKingTradeMaven Clearing LLC.tradeMONSTERTradersPlatformTradeStation SecuritiesTransAct FuturesTransworld FuturesTuco Trading LLCU.S. DerivativesUnited FuturesVelocity FuturesVision Financial MarketsXerxes TradingZanerZumo


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## willow_girl

Wow, I had no idea there were so many! Thanks for sharing that listing. 

Well, my WOR went up, down and all around. Yesterday it came within 3 cents of my sell point. I asked my husband to just go ahead and dump it for me (I was on the road) but by the time he canceled my order and put in a new one, it had dropped 4 cents. He called me back to ask if I still wanted to sell, and I decided to hang on to it instead. Of course it fell all the way back down to within 2 cents of the price I had paid for it. <Insert weeping, moaning and gnashing of teeth here.>

Today it straightened up, flew right and sold around 11 a.m.! I am up $1358 for the year now. 

PPO (a stock I flipped last week) went up another buck-something yesterday. My husband called to taunt me about it. Cruel man!


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## clovis

So, Willow, does that mean you are out of all positions right now, and at least cleared?


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## willow_girl

Nope, I still have my slacker stocks, SNX and EGY, hanging around!

They have been gaining a little almost every day, though, so I think I'll be able to unload them eventually. EGY actually hit the break-even point two days ago, then slid back a bit yesterday. I have only held them a couple weeks, so I'm not panicking yet! LOL

The other stock I was looking at for this week (but didn't have money to buy!) also has had a nice run (KMX).


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## mrpink

what are some good sites to use for research? I haven't been to impressed with scottrades research. I find that I spend a good bit of time at www.nasdaq.com, go to yahoo some, but haven't found a good free research site or maybe I don't know what to look for any idea's. which brings about the question what in particular do you look for? I know everyone looks for something different based on there trading\investing style. I'm still working out the details my of plan of action should be ready to dive in in the next week or so.
yesterday I found these two, mind and fsin. mind took off like a rocket today. not sure if it will continue up or not. it releases earnings on the fifth. fsin makes me nervous for some reason but I can't quite put my finger on why.

my plan so far kinda follows willowgirls as far as trying to benefit from the swing in pricing that the earnings can generate. trying to find stocks in the $5-$15 range. my goals would be one (maybe two depending on timing) round trips a week with a 5% exit strategy. I have not decided if I should split my meager $1000's in two or go all in one. still analyzing the numbers there.


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## clovis

Decisions, decisions...

Last week, or when the market was down, I bought T (ATT). It is up $3 a share already!!!

I've been super solid on my buy and hold strategy for accumulating dividend stocks. There is a dividend bubble occurring right now, for the ex-date is coming up. I'm not sure whether to clip off a nice profit right now, and forget the dividend, or to just hold it out with my original strategy, not caring about the up and downs of the stock.


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## mrpink

the good thing about investing\trading stocks is that there is so many ways to do it. no way is really wrong as long as your making a profit.
clovis my thinking is A) 43 cents a share dividend compared to B) $3 per share profit.

my question here would be would it be wise place a sell trailing stop order in this case at say $1 or $2 below the current price? If my understanding is correct that would still allow you to sell at a profit if the price went down while allowing you to hold onto the stock as long as it was going up.


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## willow_girl

Way to go Clove!!!


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## devittjl

So I decided to get back into the fray. Earlier this year I sold all my non-retirement investments to become debt-free (except for the house) and set up my emerency fund. 

I now have added money back to my brokerage to start option trading again.

This week I bought/sold APA May 135 Calls for a 14.7% profit and INFA may 52.5 calls for a 4.1% profit. I am up $216 this week (actualy in 2 days). I sold a little early, but I am always reminded of this quote "I have never lost money selling at a profit"

I also have a SPY put I am sitting on as a hedge. I think the market is ready to turn for a couple of days as volume has been light and with the market up a lot of people are ready to capture profits or cover shorts.


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## Guest

Since today is the last day of the quarter, I considered buying a couple RUT puts at the close tomorrow, or earlier if there is a clear rollover top. I'm thinking April 845 puts. Remember, historically the first of the month, and especially the first of the quarter is up. Largely because thats when many retirement funds buy in. In the Russell2000, over the past 12 months, the index has moved up a combined total of 60 points on the firsts of the month, and only 6 on the seconds of the months. So, statistically, a put would be 10 times more likely to pay off by buying at the close on the first of the month. The S&P, underlying for the SPY would likely have responded in the same manner as the Russell, I merely posted the Russell results because I have them on hand.


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## willow_girl

> "I have never lost money selling at a profit"


I gotta remember that line! :hysterical:

Well, I dumped my CGC today. Made $100 (on a $5 stock!) after holding it for three months. The board of directors is going to vote on a merger tomorrow; it may pay off, but I decided to grab my profits and run. DH bought into it, so I'll keep an eye on what it's doing (and if it goes sky-high, he'll surely let me know. LOL!)


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## mrpink

willowgirl how does pds look to you? how would it fit into your trading style?


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## willow_girl

Greg, I took a quick look and I really like the looks of that company. It's profitable, and I think that's a good sector to get into right now. The only hitch I see is that it's already trading at the top of its 52-week price range (or very close to it) ... so the gamble is on whether it will go higher! But I'd think it has a very good chance. 

Good luck!


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## mrpink

its true that it is at its 52 week high. closed at it yesterday and up another 2% so far today.earnings are scheduled to be released 18th according to scottrades earnings calender. I find that odd because its quarter just ended yesterday. I'm gonna watch it a bit I think


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## mrpink

any picks for the upcoming week?


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## willow_girl

I like GPC.


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## mrpink

last week I got my scottrade account set up and funded. jumped in a bought some stock today ( well I guess yesterday since its nearly 2 am now). guess we will see how long I last now. was up $19 at market close. maybe with a little luck I'll do ok


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## willow_girl

What did you buy???

I have been getting smacked around by the market lately. Can't seem to catch a break! Made $170 last week, but the big goose egg thus far this week ... I'd be happy just to be in the black! :teehee:


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## clovis

mrpink said:


> last week I got my scottrade account set up and funded. jumped in a bought some stock today ( well I guess yesterday since its nearly 2 am now). guess we will see how long I last now. was up $19 at market close. maybe with a little luck I'll do ok


WTG, Pink!!! Hope you make a million!!!!!


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## mrpink

I bought fsin I've been watching it lately. as of now it is up 4% from my buy in price. at one point this morning it was only 3 cents from my 5% goal


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## mrpink

after I posted my last post the market took it all away except for $7.20. oh well tomorrow is a new week. new quarterly earnings season is about to open. I am trying to look about 6 weeks in advance to give me time to watch the stocks and mull over my thoughts on them. my list for the next two weeks is pretty slim. I'll be watching pds for a chance to buy. its done well since the 1st when I started watching it.


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## willow_girl

The market giveth and the market taketh away ... :sob:
I will be living vicariously through you for the next week as I have other money-making fish to fry at the momemt (my annual plant/antique/book sale is coming up next Saturday!). I have my sells set so if (by some miracle) any of my stock goes in the black next week, eTrade will dump it for me ... I can only hope!


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## mrpink

willow_girl said:


> The market giveth and the market taketh away ... :sob:
> I will be living vicariously through you for the next week as I have other money-making fish to fry at the momemt (my annual plant/antique/book sale is coming up next Saturday!). I have my sells set so if (by some miracle) any of my stock goes in the black next week, eTrade will dump it for me ... I can only hope!


if the rest of the week goes like today you'll be better off frying those other fish. out of 14 stocks on my watch list 11 of them are negative today. one of the three is up 8% the other two around 1%. my stock is about $40 in the hole today.maybe things will be better tomorrow


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## tarbe

You guys must have strong stomachs!

I have what amounts to 1.5% of my savings in a particular Roth IRA. That is the only money I can let myself play with in this manner....I am such a risk averse guy it is sad.  Must have something to do with that Lehman Brothers and GM stock I used to own.

I have been holding some Positron Corp (POSC) since mid December, waiting on a "big run". Bought at 4 cents, it went to 5, dropped back below 4 and now is back up just above 4. I could have sold at 5 cents and made 25%....except the gain happened right at the holidays (Christmas and New Years) and by the time I got back in the game....too late!

Rule number 1: Never go to sleep on your stocks...or at least put sell orders in!

My other play right now is WHX, Whiting USA Trust, an REIT with a nearly 16% dividend payout. I bought it with the thought that I would just sit on it and collect the dividends....but trading is too much fun! I might put a sell order in at a 10% gain...if it goes up and sells, I'll have to buy something else!

Be careful out there, all.


Tim


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## mrpink

I'm only down $33 and I don't believe i'll have to sell at a loss so no worries yet, though I would feel much better if I was still ahead.


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## willow_girl

> Must have something to do with that Lehman Brothers and GM stock I used to own.


Ouch!!!

Well, my GPC shot up 98 cents today, so that one is back in the black, at least. I'm $2 to the good -- whooHOO! It doesn't report until Friday, so maybe I'll make a buck off it after all ... *crossing fingers*


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## clovis

tarbe said:


> Must have something to do with that Lehman Brothers and GM stock I used to own.


I used to own some of that too. I bought it after it tanked hard, and could have dumped it the very same day for a handsome profit. I was just too stupid to know!!! I thought it was going to double in price.

Thankfully, it is the only stock that I've ever lost money on. While I hated losing the money, it was a valuable lesson that I learned.


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## mrpink

ok asking for some opinions here. my fsin has taken a beating since friday. down every day. so far I have lost $68 on it. I started with $1020. bought 120 shares at $8.30 for a total of $996. signed up a friend with scottrade so I get 3 free trades, therefore no trading fee's.should I dump it for a loss or hold it? if I sell at a loss these are the stocks on my watch list and have been for at least two weeks. ccix hsol (i wouldn't buy this one at this time), liwa ( shot up 11% today and I'm not sure why), mind, nor, pds (I really like this one for some reason), svu (I missed the boat on this one I think), swft (jb hunt reported today fuel surcharge helped the numbers alot could do the same with swift), udrl ( took a hit earlier in the week but came back 9% today). so whats your thoughts?


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## tarbe

Seems like with oil where it is, hybrids will continue to be in demand.

Their p/e is pretty attractive, and they have certainly been hammered lately.

I would not dump now, myself. I'd wait for a rebound.

Chasing the stocks that already went up has never worked for me! 


Tim


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## clovis

mrpink said:


> ok asking for some opinions here. my fsin has taken a beating since friday. down every day. so far I have lost $68 on it. I started with $1020. bought 120 shares at $8.30 for a total of $996. signed up a friend with scottrade so I get 3 free trades, therefore no trading fee's.should I dump it for a loss or hold it? if I sell at a loss these are the stocks on my watch list and have been for at least two weeks. ccix hsol (i wouldn't buy this one at this time), liwa ( shot up 11% today and I'm not sure why), mind, nor, pds (I really like this one for some reason), svu (I missed the boat on this one I think), swft (jb hunt reported today fuel surcharge helped the numbers alot could do the same with swift), udrl ( took a hit earlier in the week but came back 9% today). so whats your thoughts?


I just looked at FSIN.

Personally, I'd hold it, but that is just me. It has traded as high as $10+ in the past 6 months. That is a good sign.

It looks like it bottomed out at just under $7.

It is just my opinion. You should probably do the exact opposite of what I think, lol. This past week I advised someone here to go deep on a mining stock, and it fell $2.40 a share the very same day!

Again, just my opinion.


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## mrpink

clovis said:


> I just looked at FSIN.
> 
> Personally, I'd hold it, but that is just me. It has traded as high as $10+ in the past 6 months. That is a good sign.
> 
> It looks like it bottomed out at just under $7.
> 
> It is just my opinion. You should probably do the exact opposite of what I think, lol. This past week I advised someone here to go deep on a mining stock, and it fell $2.40 a share the very same day!
> 
> Again, just my opinion.



thank you for your opinion. I don't think I will lose if I hold. I might lose some of my "possible "earnings by holding.

I see this thread as people helping people or at least thats the way I would like it to go. ( as some one needing help)


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## mrpink

well fsin gained 7.11% today. it closed at $8.29 so I am only down $1.20. maybe monday I can sell at a profit.


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## clovis

Hang in there mrpink.

I haven't followed the stock, but it would be cool if it hit $10 again soon. 

I understand the entire philosophy of flipping stocks each and every day. I've done it quite a few times. But then again, if you can hang on for a higher sell price, and want to do that, why does it matter, as long as you are making a healthy profit?

Again, I understand the day trading mentality. I own an energy stock that has nearly tripled in price since I bought it, but I could have made 100 trades with the same money had I sold it. There definitely is an upside to selling a stock before the market closes.

At the same time, the mantra of "Don't buy stocks to hold. Buy and sell them every day and make more money!!!!" is a little oversold, IMO. That mantra does make for a _great sales pitch_ in infomercials, 'learn to trade seminars' and the like....but it is just that...a pitch to get you to trade more often.

Oh, and one more thing. That is a great mantra if you really do have other stocks that you can flip every day for a profit. Not everyone has that information and skill set.

Does that make any sense?


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## mrpink

I'm thinking more one trade a week. I couldn't trade more then about twice a week with such a low account anyway. I have nothing against buying and holding I would like to build my account up a bit so I could do that some. I wish I could by some cstr to hold I see that one moving up.


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## clovis

How is everyone doing? 

Are you all still trading?


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## mrpink

I'm still holing my fsin up $28. though. feels much better to be on the positive side.


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## willow_girl

I am about $600 underwater right now, but that's better than last week, when I was down $800! :hysterical:

I have been so busy with spring yard work, plant sales and book sales that I haven't had time to do any research. I still have about $2,000 unallocated and am toying with the idea of buying some FCS tomorrow. Was going to do that last Monday, got busy and didn't follow through, and they went up 80 cents that day ... *sigh*


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## Guest

Stops, willow, stops!! Sometimes you take a loss, shrug it off, and come back the next day. The minor loss can easily turn into a major butt whipping. How do I know that??? Go ahead and ask. It'll singe your eyeballs and make you wish you were on acid.


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## willow_girl

I haven't done acid since high school ... a longggg time ago! 

I think I will hold these stocks a little while longer (I haven't had any of them for more than a month). The GPC in particular has good fundamentals and just announced a nice dividend payable in July. Another reports in the middle of next month, which may give me an opportunity to unload it at a profit or at least break even! 

If I had another investment lined up, it might be a different story, but I haven't even had time to glance at the earnings calendar for the last 2 weeks! Spring is my busy time of year, as I generally take on a few landscaping side jobs in addition to all my regular work.


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## Guest

Funny, I was sure you'd want to know. Oh, well....


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## mrpink

zong you could always tell the rest of us. I know I would like to hear it


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## clovis

Zong, I'd like to know too, but let's skip the eyeball and acid thing, okay?


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## Guest

So glad you ask. I guess it was January 3rd or something, first trading day of the year in 2007 I think. Oil had fluctuated between 60 and 64 for weeks. It hit 60.14 or so, I went long. A guy came to the house, I was up a hundred bucks or so, but I wanted at least $500. I went out and talked to him. Came back in, Oil was down a little, I was down maybe $200. I doubled up. It dropped some more, I doubled up again. Total of 4 contracts. Broke 60, dropped like a rock, I doubled up again. and again. and again. At $59, I was seriously on the wrong side, but it started back my way. I doubled up again, 20 cents or so, I'd be green. Lights were blinking, my orders were refused. I had maxed out my margin!!! I held my mud, 2:15 I got the margin call. It could still come back...............I let them margin me out. I was down $89,000. The next morning, I thought, If I can lose 89k in a day, I can make 89k in a day. At the end of that day, without nearly as big a reserve, I marginned out with a $50K loss. Oil sold all the way down to $50 in a few days, I had been long. Of course, after that, it went above $140 over the next few months. If, If, If... But by then, my spirit was broke, my cash was depleted, I never recovered the confidence I had. Now I'm satisfied to take $50. I don't even dream of the $10k days any more. I blew 140k in 2 days, and never got it back. Why??? Because I was too proud to be wrong and take a $200 loss and move along to the next trade. 
Now, years on down the road, I never take much of a loss. I peck away and pick up enough to get by. Hospital bills took the rest though. I'm lucky to have enough capital to make a few hundred here and there. On that morning in 2007 though, I had over a half million dollars in my account. Loss of the 140k and the resultant loss of confidence took me down hard. All because I didn't accept a $200 loss gracefully. $200 would have been nothing. $140k is something. use a stop, take the loss, and move along. Money has no meaning now, it was all an illusion of sorts. How do you talk to your friends in the real world when you have sat in a chair in your underwear and cut 20k off Goldman Sachs in a couple hours?? You cant. The disconnect with reality caused the overconfidence. The overconfidence caused me to chase the break even point instead of taking the manageable loss. Not taking the small loss lead to the monster whipping. USE A STOP. Today, I hate trading. $50 is good for me. $500 is huge now. That was then, this is now.


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## clovis

Wow, I can't hardly believe what I just read!

That part about the eyeballs...just wow...is really true.

My big, massive loss was on GM, which I could have dumped an hour after the buy-in for a $200 profit, totalled about $1000. I just got greedy, thinking that it would go to $10, and I never let go until it sank into bankruptcy. In actuality, I thought it would eventually rebound to $30, and I could have shown the world exactly how smart that dumb stupid Clovis guy really was, LOL. 

I can't imagine taking a hit like that one, or scoring $20K in a few hours. it is just beyond my comprehension!!!!

Heck, I thought I was big stuff a few years ago when I made $200 in just one day trading AA in two different trades. I'd like to say that I was in my undies too, but really, I was wearing a pair of shorts. It does make you look at the world a little differently, doesn't it?

Thanks for sharing...I think there are some lessons in your story for all of us to learn.


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## willow_girl

> I think there are some lessons in your story for all of us to learn.


For sure! :teehee:


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## Halfway

Yup. Get a 5 figure loss in a short amount of time and you believe it when people say they "vommitted" at the loss.

Oh yes, vomit you will. Cut losses quickly.

Cut losses quickly.

Cut losses quickly.

I also remember having 2000 shares of QCOM which I stubbornly held overnight. I awoke to a pre-market gap down of almost 2 bucks a share. Ugly day that was as well. 

Some lessons are best learned through others.

Some must be learned with "acid in your eyes" as Zong has said.

If you recover from this downturn, your brain will be all set to allow another downturn (and potential reversal) which can be the actual "account destroyer". 

Ahhhh, so many lessons over time.

Stay smart!


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## mrpink

thank you zong for your experiences and you halfway for your thoughts.
luckily I don't have any loses yet, heck you all know my investing story because all of it is here with the exception of some 401k mutual funds (which was a very small lose). I can not imagine a loss such as that but it does seem to be a common occurrence. my best friend/father figure/ mentor told me several times about how he lost $100G in a year because he thought he was smarter then the market.


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## willow_girl

W00T! I am up $225 today ... only 2 more days like this and I'll be back in the black! :hysterical:


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## willow_girl

How's everybody doing? ARE you doing?!

I got sidetracked for awhile (because life revolves around my GARDEN at this time of year) but then one of my "slacker stocks" finally sold on Monday, and that $80 profit whetted my appetite for more EASY MONEY!

I didn't have time to go through the earnings calendar, so I turned to my short list of favorite stocks, and noticed WLK was down almost *$10* from its high point around the first of the month (following a stellar earnings report). I figured it could easily go up a buck or two! 

I wanted to buy it on Tuesday or Wednesday (after the first meltdown of the week) but my funds hadn't settled and I was too lazy to transfer money in from an outside account, so I waited. (That was my FIRST mistake!)

On Friday, I finally set up the buy ... called my husband shortly after the opening bell, and he reported it was UP and I'd made $79 in the first 20 minutes of the session! I should have taken the money and run, but didn't. (That was my SECOND mistake!) Of course, the stock market tanked Friday afternoon, and I ended up $23 in the hole!!!!!

But I still put my money on a stock that went up $.92 on a day when the market closed 100 points down, so I guess it wasn't an entirely bad pick. And there's always next week!


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## mrpink

I sold my fsin stock on the 11th at a loss took a $70 hit its gone down every since. I had two chances at selling at a decent +4% gain but held out for 5%. lesson learned take what the market gives ya. as soon as I sold it I bought exk. its priced dropped and bounced around then shot up today more then 9% (I was about seven in the hole on it). I sold it at a 2.5% gain. time to look for something else to buy now


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## InvalidID

I keep wanting to get back in (I bailed out 2 weeks ago except for 1 share of OIB and around $200 in RGR) but every time I look at my fav list I see a sea of red.
I was going to grab some FOL thinking that after oil dropped it should make a small move up. Phone rang, kids wanted help...I forgot to buy. Up 4.03% today. Oh well.

So, you guys think oil has more room in the next few days?


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## InvalidID

Well, I got in and out of FOL already. Grabbed 2.5% profit and got scared... It's still going up but I'm not inclined to be upset over profit missed.

On an even better note, everything on my watch list is green today. Downside, I don't own any of it...lol


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## willow_girl

Ok, peeps, here is something to inspire you!

DH bought SQNS on Tuesday based on a hot stock tip on Kramer's "Mad Money." 

In four days, it is up more than 17 percent, for a profit of $1146! 

I told him he's da man! :bow:

Also that I expect him to take me out to dinner! :hysterical:


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## mrpink

congrats to willow girls hubby.
had I held on to my exk I could have sold it Friday for a 12% gain.
I also thought about buying udrl Friday morning. it was up 7% Friday.


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## willow_girl

His SQNS is up 34% now. Over $2200. 

I have NO money to buy some!


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## willow_girl

Holy Holstein! Hubby's stock finished the day up $3.87. 

It's now up more than 47% since he bought it last Wednesday ... he's made $3,081.41.

I am in awe! :hysterical:


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## mrpink

thats awesome for sure. hope todays market didn't take it away


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## willow_girl

Well, he gave some of it back today! Quite a bit, actually ... like $1110. 

I pestered him yesterday to sell at close of market, but he didn't listen. He still thinks it will go up more. 

I am beginning to doubt his brilliance! :teehee:


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## clovis

How is everyone doing? 

The market is down. Anyone finding any bargains?


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## KySam

Willow

Interesting thread. I have just read through it and I am going to read it again
just to get it to really sink in. Just a couple questions. Anyone is welcome to reply.

Can you have more than one account at Etrade? 

On the taxes does making a profit in trading put in in a higher tax bracket or do you just pay a flat rate on your profits from trading?


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## Guest

You can have multiple accounts at any brokerage. And short term capital gains is taxed at your regular tax rate. no SS on Cap Gains though.


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## clovis

Hey trading friends...I have a few questions:

1. What sites should I use when researching stocks? 

For instance, I've been looking at FGP as a LT buy and hold. It took a massive hit recently after a crazy bad earnings report. I can find that news pretty easily, but don't seem to find the other important news.

Another instance is BPT, also down many points recently. I am guessing that the falling price of crude has impacted this stock...but where do I go to find the news for sure? I want to make sure that the reason is because the price of crude is down, and not that Bernie Madhoff is now running the company, LOL, or that the oil wells they own have gone dry...LOL!

2. Can you help me with finding the "W" that forms at the bottom in stock charts? Ya'll know that the "W" that forms at the bottom of a chart, and how it signals that a stock can go up after the second leg reaches the price point it had when it first took a dive? When I look at charts historically, whether it be a one week chart or a year chart, it is easy to look back and see the "W", almost plain as day. How do I find them when they are happening currently? What chart do I use? The current day chart? The one week chart? 

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I am thankful for your time and help!


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## frogmammy

I really do think this subject needs its own forum...anybody with me on this?

Mon


----------



## Halfway

clovis said:


> Hey trading friends...I have a few questions:
> 
> 1. What sites should I use when researching stocks?
> 
> For instance, I've been looking at FGP as a LT buy and hold. It took a massive hit recently after a crazy bad earnings report. I can find that news pretty easily, but don't seem to find the other important news.
> 
> Another instance is BPT, also down many points recently. I am guessing that the falling price of crude has impacted this stock...but where do I go to find the news for sure? I want to make sure that the reason is because the price of crude is down, and not that Bernie Madhoff is now running the company, LOL, or that the oil wells they own have gone dry...LOL!
> 
> 2. Can you help me with finding the "W" that forms at the bottom in stock charts? Ya'll know that the "W" that forms at the bottom of a chart, and how it signals that a stock can go up after the second leg reaches the price point it had when it first took a dive? When I look at charts historically, whether it be a one week chart or a year chart, it is easy to look back and see the "W", almost plain as day. How do I find them when they are happening currently? What chart do I use? The current day chart? The one week chart?
> 
> I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I am thankful for your time and help!


 
finviz.com for all kinds of heat maps, screens, and data.

Marketwatch.com for news and research.

earningswhispers.com for important dates

google "bulkowski trade" for pattern recognition statistics, definitions, probabilities etc.

stockfetcher.com for backtesting and screening tools

mypivots.com for fututres trading discussion

cmegroup.com for chicago merc futures, info, and data.

That should give you about 200 hours of surfing. 

Happy trading!


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## groundhogII

frogmammy said:


> I really do think this subject needs its own forum...anybody with me on this?
> 
> Mon


I agree.I think trading is the ultimate work from home activity.This thread demonstrates the interest in the subject.
There are a lot of different techniques used by market traders to make a buck.For instance, it is educational to watch willow_girl progress through her swingtrading activities.But there have been so many other trading techniques mentioned in this thread(daytrading for instance) that it makes for difficult reading,even for someone such as myself who trades frequently.


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## maverickm

Hi everyone! This is an awesome thread - I like the idea of sharing trading experiences and ideas. With the market down a lot over the past few days, I hope everyone has been doing ok. Does anyone here have any professional work experience in the financial industry by any chance or get most of their income through trading? I currently work, but try to make some money on the side by investing a few $ in ETFs on Etrade and look forward to contributing to this thread.


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## Ray

I thought I wanted to start day trading, and checked it all out. 
But I didn't want to put up the $35,000 required, by the regulatory commission to be a Day Trader. I can see how fast money could be made, but i can also see how you could loose your shirt in one smooth day. I figured i could loose the $35,000 and still be fine but to keep replacing it to keep the required loss protection for the bankers I thought a bit much. 
I suppose if you get ahead quick, pull all profits away and just use your profits for the loss buffer, then never go back into your own pocket. Provided you do get ahead at the beginning??? I see many trading 100s of thousands in single trades, i don't want to trade like that. If I had 10million, I might take 1 mil. and try it for fun for a while but I don't so it wouldn't be fun to loose a quarter of a mil one afternoon. just my thoughts.


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## Guest

First, the required margin for a "pattern day trader" is $25,000. Your brokerage firm is grinning you. Second, a "pattern day trader" is one who makes more than 3 intraday trades in a 5 day period. So, you can be a daytrader,3 trades, 1 day a week or one trade a day for 3 days a week, without the 25k. third, futures are the way to "day trade" either index futures, commodities futures, or single stock futures. All that is required is a minimum amount for each contract, it varies. For instance, to trade E-mini Nasdaq futures, $1750 per contract is required. HOWEVER, there is a minimum requirement at most firms of $2000 in order to be margin enabled. If you're getting different numbers, you're with the wrong brokerage.


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## maverickm

Zong got it right. $25K min balance to get your pattern day trader status. In terms of deciding what market/inv. vehicles to choose for day trading, I think it is hard to tell which one would be best as it depends on your objective and level of risk you are willing to take. Unless I am mistaken, the advantage of futures lies in the increased leverage you get from them. Keep in mind though that: Higher leverage -> higher potential profits, but also higher potential losses.

This raises an important issue though - choosing what type of vehicle to invest in (regular stocks, ETFs, futures, options, mutual funds, etc.). Depending on what you choose, the risk profile can be very different from another category. If I invest in a penny stock, sure I can loose everything in one day. If I invest in an S&P500 ETF, then that risk is virtually zero (most days the pct change is probably around 0-2%). If I sell a stock short, my loss is theoretically unlimited. Pick your poison


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## Michael W. Smith

I still don't know about this day trading thing - I still prefer my buy and hold appoach.

I got a nice payoff from my stock pick back in November of 2006 when I bought 199 shares of Massey Energy at $25.25 / share. I saw it ride all the way up to the $90.00's and then drop.

Anyways, I held on to it, and invested in January 2008 and bought it at $29.42 / share. Dividends got reinvested.


Overall, I invested $6850.00. This year Alpha Resources bought them out in June. I got 1.025 shares of Alpha for each share of Massey I had, plus $10.00 in cash for each share of Massey I had.

That $2700.00 check I got in the mail sure was nice! (Got back over 1/3 of my overall investment money, and I now own 275 shares of Alpha valued today at $40.98 / share - $11,269.50. 

My initial investement money of $6850.00 minus the $2700.00 check I got brought my initial investment money down to $4100.50, so overall in less than 5 years, I almost tripled my money - and I just let it ride - didn't have to check the markets, don't have to buy and sell and have commissions and fees.


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## clovis

MWS-

I agree. Buy and hold has its advantages. 

My dad scored 50 shares of WLP, and they were valued at $15 each. He forgot about the stock, and then remembered it a month ago. It has been trading in the $75-$80 range. What a score!

At the same time, I can't blame anyone for day trading shares, especially if they have the money to invest. I wish I could day trade, but I don't have the funds to play like that.

The nice thing about DTing is that you can clip off $200 in sheer profit several times a week, just buying and selling.

If you were able to make 2 trades and make a total of $400 per week, that is about $20,000 a year. Of course, you see the magnificent return, and the draw for those that day trade....and it beats the daylights out of most buy and hold situations.

Don't forget...most people that day trade actually _want_ to be trading like that.


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## Guest

Buy and hold isn't so bad, as long as you use stops. I have friends who are sitting on shares of CSCO and INTC they didn't sell at 80. Now they are 15 and 21. One poor guy went bankrupt and held one share of RMBS to remind himself. He didn't sell it at $445(111 split adjusted) Now its $14. All these guys had bought somewhere near the top and refused to take a profit. Look at GM. What if you'd held that one til the bitter end?? You can't let a stock go but so much against you. NEVER hold through a 50% or greater decline in price. 
The advantage to day trading is that you're not sitting on a bunch of stock when the news comes out at 6:00 in the morning that ABCD's best selling foot powder causes cancer in 100% of instances. You may take a gain or loss during the day. You may miss out on a gain from good news. But you won't be wiped out with one news blurb. You can take a whole lot of 2-3% losses. You can only take one GM "hold no matter what" scenario.


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## willow_girl

Michael, good job! :thumb:


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## Michael W. Smith

clovis said:


> The nice thing about DTing is that you can clip off $200 in sheer profit several times a week, just buying and selling.


Make the wrong pick and you could just as easily lose $200.00 several times a week too. (But I suppose putting a stop on it would prevent that.) But doesn't it cost money to put a stop on it?

Has anyone been making anything lately with how the market is?


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## willow_girl

ETrade doesn't charge for stops.

And my stocks are in the crapper and have been for months! GRRRR!


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## Halfway

Michael W. Smith said:


> Make the wrong pick and you could just as easily lose $200.00 several times a week too. (But I suppose putting a stop on it would prevent that.) But doesn't it cost money to put a stop on it?
> 
> Has anyone been making anything lately with how the market is?


As I and a couple others stated before, the market has a way of taking it back. It is really the trader who gives it back, but that is a much deeper subject.

If you are trading, insure you have the ability to short. If not, you are stuck looking for longs only, and that will cause you additional pain if you are forcing trades or feel youi must trade.

ES and YM would be a good way to learn. And the hard way. Either way, lessons are expensive, but futures offer tax and accounting advantages.

Just my $.02 from years of trading. Good luck and success all!


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## clovis

I wish I could be a day trader like you all.

All my stocks are up this week, some of them in a big way, including my recent buy of BPT. This buy was _small_, most would laugh at me...but it is working...for us. 

I could clip off a tidy little profit for myself, but that isn't the strategy for us. We are looking for LT dividend income for our retirement years. It is tempting though, to ride those dividend bubbles on a few stocks we have, and sell off before the bubble bursts.

I hope you all are making $$$!!!!


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## mrpink

exk is starting to become my favorite stock it closed up more then 11% over my buy in price today. will have to watch it close in the morning so I don't give to much back.

since exk is a silver mining stock and it goes up and down with the price of silver I was thinking that when I sell it to buy zsl a 2x short silver etf. that way I would be making money when silver goes down and I'm waiting on exk to get to another good buy in point. any thoughts on that plan? I've never bought an etf but it seems like a good ideal to me at this time.


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## mrpink

well I sold my exk today for a 20% profit after only holding it for 2 weeks. not bad in my opinion considering my goal is 5%. only trouble is I don't know what to buy now.


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## clovis

mrpink said:


> well I sold my exk today for a 20% profit after only holding it for 2 weeks. not bad in my opinion considering my goal is 5%. only trouble is I don't know what to buy now.


One you might consider is AES...they are a power utility. Put it on your watch list.

AES seems to run between low $12 range up to $13, but not much higher. I've been watching these bounces between 12 to 13 for a long time.

This stock doesn't bounce fast...it seems to take a week or two. Not an exciting stock, but the high and low movement seems to be there. 

Watch it for a while, and check out those charts. Of course, do your homework.


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## mrpink

Thanks clovis I add it to my watch list and will keep an eye on it


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## clovis

mrpink said:


> Thanks clovis I add it to my watch list and will keep an eye on it


Just do your homework on it.


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## clovis

The Dow was down 178 points today...anyone picking up bargains?

I wish I had the money to buy and speculate. I'd have a tough time picking which stocks I liked the best for big bounces when they come back up. A few of my fave's on my watch list are bargain priced right now.


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## InvalidID

I'm not getting in right now. With Europe being the mess it is I don't see anywhere I want to put my cash except livestock and ammo...lol


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## Guest

clovis said:


> The Dow was down 178 points today...anyone picking up bargains?
> 
> I wish I had the money to buy and speculate. I'd have a tough time picking which stocks I liked the best for big bounces when they come back up. A few of my fave's on my watch list are bargain priced right now.


You do know that fighting the trend is a lot like trying to stop a train. When the markets roll over and head down, ride them down short. look at this. I drew an uptrend line then a downtrend line. Which one of those you want to try to fight? the correct answer is neither. Sure, once in a while you'll nail the bottom. But you'll get ran over a heck of a lot if you insist on fighting the trend. (chart is TF, the Russell 2000 futures. All the US market indices trade pretty much in tandem)


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## mrpink

I'm waiting on my funds to settle. meanwhile I watching and trying to figure out my next move. I don't have the funds to short except by buying short etf's. had I bought zsl (2x short silver) I would be making money now. I didn't like the idea of being stuck holding waiting on my funds to settle in case it went against me.


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## clovis

zong said:


> You do know that fighting the trend is a lot like trying to stop a train. When the markets roll over and head down, ride them down short. look at this. I drew an uptrend line then a downtrend line. Which one of those you want to try to fight? the correct answer is neither. Sure, once in a while you'll nail the bottom. But you'll get ran over a heck of a lot if you insist on fighting the trend. (chart is TF, the Russell 2000 futures. All the US market indices trade pretty much in tandem)


Thanks for the chart and info, zong.

As you can see, I'm not a chart guy, and am just about as clueless to the markets as anyone could get.

I just saw some decent price points on stocks that I like, and assumed it was just a pull back on the market.

I'd venture to say that some of you are spending more in trading fees than I am able to invest in the markets. Sad, but true.


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## Guest

It costs $4.02(at IB) for a round-trip trade on Dow Jones, S&P500, Russell and Nasdaq futures. $4.62 for the big oil contract(a very dangerous trading tool, since it fluctuates hard and faster than you can blink.) There are lots of places to study up on charts.


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## mrpink

clovis I'm with you an the charts. I've looked and read about them and don't understand a thing. apparently I'm about as clueless about the market. silver is up so silver miners are up, and darned if I understand but zsl is up as well. tells me I need to stay out of the market today.


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## clovis

The charts work for many people, and I am all for it.

For the type of investing we are doing, which is LT buy and hold with the payoff _hopefully_ being some dividend income at retirement, the charts aren't such an important tool...at least it seems to me.

I do use them, but not to the extent that others do.


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## clovis

zong said:


> It costs $4.02(at IB) for a round-trip trade on Dow Jones, S&P500, Russell and Nasdaq futures. $4.62 for the big oil contract(a very dangerous trading tool, since it fluctuates hard and faster than you can blink.) There are lots of places to study up on charts.


I bet that you really are spending more in trading fees than we are able to invest every month.

If ya'll knew how small time I really am, you'd probably kick me off the thread and ban me from ever posting again, LOL.

I do enjoy this thread, very, very much. I've learned a ton of stuff here, and I hope everyone keeps sharing and posting.


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## Michael W. Smith

clovis said:


> If ya'll knew how small time I really am, you'd probably kick me off the thread and ban me from ever posting again, LOL.


Hey Clovis, you have to start somewhere. And those little amounts you invest now will certainly add up over time with increases in the stock price plus the dividends reinvesting!!

I got interested in investing in my late 20's or early 30's. Of course, once you get into it - you could kick yourself for all the money you "threw away" when you were younger!

As the years go by, retirement looms ahead - and time does go fast! I'm 44, so still have probably 20+ years, but I'm saving what I can. And it's incredible how it does add up - especially when you have several years of bull markets.

Consider yourself lucky that you are investing "small amounts". I know many people my age (or older) that don't invest anything.


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## clovis

Michael W. Smith said:


> Hey Clovis, you have to start somewhere. And those little amounts you invest now will certainly add up over time with increases in the stock price plus the dividends reinvesting!!
> 
> I got interested in investing in my late 20's or early 30's. Of course, once you get into it - you could kick yourself for all the money you "threw away" when you were younger!
> 
> As the years go by, retirement looms ahead - and time does go fast! I'm 44, so still have probably 20+ years, but I'm saving what I can. And it's incredible how it does add up - especially when you have several years of bull markets.
> 
> Consider yourself lucky that you are investing "small amounts". I know many people my age (or older) that don't invest anything.


I know you won't believe this, but my wife and I had this _exact_ conversation this morning, about 30 minutes ago.

It isn't the first time we've had this conversation, but each time we talk about it, I always say "I wish I would have started this sooner...even $20 a week."

It is easy to forget that it was a different world back then. The local broker wanted at least $100 deposits at a time, and trades were like $55 round trip.


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## clovis

I should add...there were weeks when I was younger when $20 was a bunch of money to me. Many people were the same way...they just didn't have an extra $20 a week.

I look back at the local brokers in town years ago. One was so outlandishly arrogant that I'm surprised that he didn't drown when it rained, and wouldn't even open an account for me as a teen. The other broker was at least open to a teen opening an account (but I had to have my dad sign for the account), but made it clear that I needed to deposit at least $100 each time "to make it worth our time".

It is kind of funny now, how high-falutin' they were, and how much money they potentially lost.


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## willow_girl

Anyone make a buck yesterday?! When DH told me over the phone that the market had closed up 200 points, I thought he was jagging me. "No, srsly ..." :hysterical:


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## Tobster

willow_girl said:


> Anyone make a buck yesterday?! When DH told me over the phone that the market had closed up 200 points, I thought he was jagging me. "No, srsly ..." :hysterical:


I covered part of my position in DDD and made a few dollars. Started buying it a couple of months ago. I kept buying it on the way down and was in the red for a while. It split 2 for 1 a few weeks ago as did LULU recently. For some reason when they split, they seem to rally. 

APKT, was up over 5% yesterday and then down 7% today? APKT is one of my favorite trading stocks. Excellent movement in the stock. Bought it today, will see if it bounces.


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## willow_girl

Wow, that one did fall off the cliff yesterday, didn't it? I wonder if it was the big sell-off prior to the earnings report coming out tonight? If it rallies today, I'd grab the money and run! :teehee:

OK, here's one to watch: EGY. I bought this back in March, and it promptly went down, so I've been holding it ever since. At one point, it was something like 13% underwater, but I liked the company so I hung in there. It's been slowly coming back, has had a few good days with more than 4% gains in the past two weeks. SmartConsensus just moved it to Buy from Hold, and MarketEdge upgraded it, too.


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## frogmammy

So, is anyone buying right now? Make that, anyone HERE.

Mon


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## clovis

frogmammy said:


> So, is anyone buying right now? Make that, anyone HERE.
> 
> Mon


I picked up a few shares this week, as did my dad. Lots and lots of bargains out there.

I wish I had the cash to day trade...I could have made some $$$$ this week. Right now, I am buying and holding for dividend income.


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## Halfway

WMT, WFC, KO, COP, CVX, CAG, T, and more WMT. Add some USB for 10 year horizon as well.

Hedge it all with equal amounts of SDS (percentage wise) to maintain sanity.


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## clovis

Last week, I urged someone to buy AES when it was down in the low $9 range. I urged them again and again.

I figured that if they would have bought 300 shares then, and sold it today, they would have profited almost $500.


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## Halfway

clovis said:


> Last week, I urged someone to buy AES when it was down in the low $9 range. I urged them again and again.
> 
> I figured that if they would have bought 300 shares then, and sold it today, they would have profited almost $500.


You can only hope. I did the same thing but with COP a year ago. Yeah, he is regretting it pretty hard.

But, no sense in fretting over the past.


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## frogmammy

....FINALLY took my $$$ down to a Scottrade office and opened an account yesterday! They told me that since it was near the end of the day, the $$$ would be in my account by this morning and I'd be good to go!

But I don't know WHERE I want to go! :sob:

My DH used to say invest in shoelaces, everyone ALWAYS needs shoelaces! Well, I listened to my grandmother talk about the depression and they used string instead of shoelaces, so there goes THAT theory!

I remember when my uncle got involved in the stock market in the late 1950's and IBM, Zerox, Poleroid were all "new" and he had a piece of each.

So, what do any of YOU see as the next "best" thing to come down the pike?

Myself, I'm thinking it's scooters.

Mon


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## clovis

frogmammy said:


> ....FINALLY took my $$$ down to a Scottrade office and opened an account yesterday! They told me that since it was near the end of the day, the $$$ would be in my account by this morning and I'd be good to go!
> 
> But I don't know WHERE I want to go! :sob:
> 
> My DH used to say invest in shoelaces, everyone ALWAYS needs shoelaces! Well, I listened to my grandmother talk about the depression and they used string instead of shoelaces, so there goes THAT theory!
> 
> I remember when my uncle got involved in the stock market in the late 1950's and IBM, Zerox, Poleroid were all "new" and he had a piece of each.
> 
> So, what do any of YOU see as the next "best" thing to come down the pike?
> 
> Myself, I'm thinking it's scooters.
> 
> Mon


Congrats on getting your account set up. I *really* like Scottrade as a brokerage firm, especially one guy that works at my local office.

I wish I could steer you towards million dollar stocks.

My investing approach is different than most here, mainly because my funds are extremely limited. I'm looking at long term buy and hold for retirement. Other than that, I have to live vicariously through the day traders that post here.

Three tips I learned long ago:

1. Buy good solid stock.
2. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.
3. Don't be greedy or bet the farm.

Are you investing for long term, or day trading?


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## frogmammy

I turn 65 this year...there IS no long term! 

All I'm looking for is to make more than 1.5 % on what's there....that's what my BEST income from the banks has been. So maybe call it a mix of long and day, just however the spirit moves me, I'm not tied to one or the other.

Mon


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## mrpink

you have plenty of time for long term. friend of mine at 79 still invests long term. currently his best stock is up 511%.

as to specific stocks I couldn't recommend any, as I'm new myself. if you like watching the markets then swing trading may be your thing. there are several dividend stocks that pay more then 1.5%. you need to have a plan before you start investing/trading. figure out price ranges of the stocks that you want to trade in.
what i would recommend is joining the scotrade community. they have a competition going on til the end of the month where they give you an account with $25,000 cash and $25,000 margin that you can trade with. I have found it to be a good learning experience.

good luck to you.


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## clovis

frogmammy said:


> I turn 65 this year...there IS no long term!
> 
> All I'm looking for is to make more than 1.5 % on what's there....that's what my BEST income from the banks has been. So maybe call it a mix of long and day, just however the spirit moves me, I'm not tied to one or the other.
> 
> Mon


This is why I like strong dividend stocks:

LLY-Over 5% return. 
MO-Over 5% return
BPT-Over 9% return
FGP-Over 9% return, but I am a little nervous about buying this stock
T-Over 5% return
DUK- Over 5% return
VZ- Over 5% return
NLY-14% return, but is a bit risky since it is a mortgage REIT

How is that for beating the bank's 1%?


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## InvalidID

frogmammy said:


> ....FINALLY took my $$$ down to a Scottrade office and opened an account yesterday! They told me that since it was near the end of the day, the $$$ would be in my account by this morning and I'd be good to go!
> 
> But I don't know WHERE I want to go! :sob:
> 
> My DH used to say invest in shoelaces, everyone ALWAYS needs shoelaces! Well, I listened to my grandmother talk about the depression and they used string instead of shoelaces, so there goes THAT theory!
> 
> I remember when my uncle got involved in the stock market in the late 1950's and IBM, Zerox, Poleroid were all "new" and he had a piece of each.
> 
> So, what do any of YOU see as the next "best" thing to come down the pike?
> 
> Myself, I'm thinking it's scooters.
> 
> Mon


 I want to welcome you to the market it's a scary but thrilling ride. I feel like I should add a little warning. Take any advice you get with a grain of salt, even advice from me.  Always research for yourself, don't assume info you get here or anywhere is accurate.

Now, about the next big thing... Tough to say in a good market. These days it's a real blood bath out there. The next big thing might well be the thing that simply doesn't fold...lol

I've been a volatility trader lately so Im hard pressed to give a stock recommendation. If you want nice steady returns I'd recommend you look at Muni ETF's. Not a lot of action, kinda boring, but they have a better rate than the bank and TBills.

ETA: There are ETF's that trade in corporate bonds as well. Those are a little riskier generally but net a better return without the big fluctuations of regular stocks.


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## willow_girl

I bought some WOR yesterday and was thrilled when it only went down 4 cents! ound:


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## clovis

willow_girl said:


> I bought some WOR yesterday and was thrilled when it only went down 4 cents! ound:


Now that is funny!!!! I can relate to that!!!


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## willow_girl

Yes, isn't it exciting to ONLY lose $15?! :hysterical:


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## tarbe

frogmammy said:


> So, is anyone buying right now? Make that, anyone HERE.
> 
> Mon



I was completely out before this latest rout.

Bought into FSEMX in my 401k and it went up 10% in one week. Got out! Now down 9% in the past two days!

I feel like I dodged a bullet.


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## Halfway

clovis said:


> This is why I like strong dividend stocks:
> 
> LLY-Over 5% return.
> MO-Over 5% return
> BPT-Over 9% return
> FGP-Over 9% return, but I am a little nervous about buying this stock
> T-Over 5% return
> DUK- Over 5% return
> VZ- Over 5% return
> NLY-14% return, but is a bit risky since it is a mortgage REIT
> 
> How is that for beating the bank's 1%?


Good info Clovis.

For those looking for a screening device that can help guide to high dividend stocks, try finviz.com. it has been a pretty decent tool since I stumbled upon it a couple years ago. You need to play with it a bit, but it does a nice job.

Good trading.


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## InvalidID

willow_girl said:


> I bought some WOR yesterday and was thrilled when it only went down 4 cents! ound:


 Ha, I've had a few of those days before.


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## Pigeon Lady

So, are you all still trading? 

I decided to join you, thanks to all the info in this thread.


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## clovis

Pigeon Lady said:


> So, are you all still trading?
> 
> I decided to join you, thanks to all the info in this thread.


I am! I'm not able to buy much, but I am still buying.


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## Pigeon Lady

Hi Clovis. No I don't have a great lot to put into it either. Just a bit that's been sitting for 5 years in an old account not making a dime of interest. I figured I could afford to play with it and not be heart broken if I mess up big time. I made a couple hundred dollars the week before last, but last week was terrible. Ended up having to hold on to one stock, ALLT. It crept back up today but not enough to hit my stop.

Wonder where all the other traders are. I've been enjoying this thread. Was hoping it would continue to evolve. 

P.


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## clovis

Pigeon Lady said:


> Wonder where all the other traders are. I've been enjoying this thread. Was hoping it would continue to evolve.
> 
> P.


Maybe it is just down to you and I...did the others up and quit, or take to the woods? LOL.

Sorry to hear that the market has been so hard for you. I wish I had the cash to play. There is a TON of money to be made, even on my small watch list.

What else are you trading? Got any fave's?


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## Guest

I stopped posting here because from my point of view, everybody in this thread wants to buy and hope. Nobody is remotely interested in setting a stop, nobody cares to take a small loss while it is a manageable amount, nobody cares to go short, nobody cares to hedge their position. Nobody is actually day trading. Nobody wants to learn any sort of realistic strategy. Nobody wants to learn to read charts. The market will not go up every day.


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## clovis

zong said:


> I stopped posting here because from my point of view, everybody in this thread wants to buy and hope. Nobody is remotely interested in setting a stop, nobody cares to take a small loss while it is a manageable amount, nobody cares to go short, nobody cares to hedge their position. Nobody is actually day trading. Nobody wants to learn any sort of realistic strategy. Nobody wants to learn to read charts. The market will not go up every day.


I wondered what happened to you. I thought you were out on a month long bender, or counting your millions.

I do wish you would reconsider. You are right, I am not shorting, hedging, or playing the market like I should or could. Right now, I am forced to buy and hold for long term reward. I _wish_ I had the funds to play.

Nonetheless, I am a better investor, and much more aware of the markets because of your posts. 

I am a slow learner. It sometimes takes me 6 months to figure out something that normal folks understand in 6 minutes. But from the info you've shared, I've been better able to buy at opportune times. I'm not sure that makes sense, but it has definitely made me a smarter investor.

You see, I've been able to pull some of the teachings that you've shared, and applied that knowledge to the situation I am in...you saved me from buying a stock at the tip-top of the market because I could better understand the charts. 

I post all of this with the upmost sincerity...if I had to name the people who have most helpful with my stock market investing, you would be on the short list:

1. Mr. Woodke, my middle school shop teacher that took 3 minutes a day to teach me how the stock market worked, and encouraged me to understand that I could own stocks, and be successful with it.

2. Brenda, the gal that ran the local brokerage office, who instead of treating me as a worthless 14 year old kid, took me in and helped me invest in the market.

3. Zong, my internet friend that opened my eyes to a whole new world of investing, and shared it in a manner that everyone could understand. Charts, shorting, trading with strategy...what a wonderful and wild new way of looking and understanding the markets!!!!

I will always be a neophyte in the market compared to you, but a better investor because of your help.


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## Guest

If I were working with limited funds, I would look real hard at options. For instance, I have no knowledge of the future, but if I, like most people here, thought that the market will be up between now and tomorrow, I would look at index calls. right this second, with the dow at 11446, the DIA (dow proxy) 114 call is at 2.00 which implies a $1.54 premium for the 7 business days til expiration. About 22c a day time deterioration premium. HOWEVER, the 113 call is 2.63, a 1.17 premium, or 17c a day. 112 calls are 3.30 or 84c premium, or 12 cents a day. So,in theory, if the dow goes up 100 points in the next 24 hours, your call will move up a dollar, minus the time premium. So, if you are a believer in such, you can put up 330 bucks for the 112 calls and get back the 330 plus a hundred, minus the 12 bucks deterioration. However, as you can see by the 3 examples the premium is a little less the deeper in the money the calls are. BUT, that is also a hedge, because there will be some value remaining if the market turns against you and goes down a hundred points, you won't lose a hundred dollars plus the premium deterioration. 
Much better is selling puts. For instance, if you believe the dow is going up, you cam sell the 114 puts for $1.82 If the dow does not close(on options expiration) below 11400 you get $182 bucks. The advantage there is that YOU make the time premium instead of giving it up. In 24 hours, you will have made at the very least, the time deterioration factor. Under the "Market will go up" theory. Heck, thats a dollar an hour with everything sitting dead still!!
If all that is overly convoluted I have a perfect, easy to understand, example of how time deterioration works.


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## Guest

Today, at this moment, I see that the Dow is up 50 points. The DIA(Dow proxy) 114 calls are up 13 cents and the 114 puts are down 35 cents. If everything was exactly equal, they would both be up or down the same amount. DIA closed yesterday at 113.94, close enough to the 114 strike to call it flat.
When you buy an option you are expecting the price of the underlying stock to go in your direction. So, If I think the DIA is going down, I can buy the 114 put. I don't mind paying $2.00 for it because I think the Dow may plummet and I'll do good. In other words, I'm paying for my hopes. Every day, as there are less days remaining til the option expires worthless, I realize that if the market didn't plummet yet, maybe it's not going to. I may pay 2.00 for the put now, but on the last hour of the last day that option is still valid, I would not pay $2.00 for that same chance that I see as valid now. not even 5 cents. 
Thats how the time value deteriorates. Every day, every hour, there is a little less time for your option to gain value. NOW, if you were the one who sold me that call for $2.00 you would have made that $2.00 not by the market going up or down, but by solely selling the time premium. Of course, the seller can have the wrong bias, too, just like the buyer. But while the buyer loses 22 cents a day in time deterioration, the seller is making that 22 cents. 
Lets look at a stock, let's say Corning Glass(GLW) It's trading at $14.70. Suppose I were to say, I sure would like some GLW at $14.00. Well, I can put in a buy order and hope. On the other hand, I can sell a 14 put, the one that expires in 7 days is bid 17c So, while I'm waiting for GLW to drop to 14, I can make 17 bucks by selling a put. If GLW does not drop to 14 in the next 7 days, I still get the 17 bucks. If I go further out to the Oct expiration, 3rd f
Friday in Oct, I can sell the 14 put for 63c, and I'll make $63 while waiting on GLW to drop to my price. I'm guaranteeing that I will buy the stock for $14. a 5 week contract. In return I'm getting $63 That is a 4.5% return over 5 weeks and 2 days without doing anything at all! Around 50% a year, more if compounded. 
Hope this is easier to understand. I won't mind having a long conversation answering questions either, but on the phone, not going to type til my fingers wear down.


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## mrpink

zong said:


> I stopped posting here because from my point of view, everybody in this thread wants to buy and hope.


while not everyone here wants to trade whether it be day trading swing trading etc. there are those of us that do desire to learn to trade.
many of us either do not have the funds or the knowledge to do much else, but to buy and hope. I tend to be lacking both. which is why I wish you would post more, at least then I could gain the knowledge.



> Nobody is remotely interested in setting a stop, nobody cares to take a small loss while it is a manageable amount,


I have taken a loss in order to preserve my capital and will likely do it again.



> nobody cares to go short,


with my IRL account I no not have the means to short ie margin account. in my scottrade portfolio challenge play account currently 4 of my five stocks are short and the one long I have I bought yesterday after covering my short position on it. I shorted it at $47.75 covered at $43.50, bought long at $42.80 currently it is $44.50. so yes I care to short 



> nobody cares to hedge their position.


this is an area that I want to learn more about. I very much like the idea but lack knowledge.



> Nobody is actually day trading.


with only $1000 of original seed money( down to $916. this second) in the market I don't qualify to be a pattern day trader and cant buy enough shares to make money day trading.



> Nobody wants to learn any sort of realistic strategy.


I am developing a strategy as I learn, that will work for me with my current limitations. I try to continuously improve on it.



> Nobody wants to learn to read charts.


here again I am trying to learn charts and how it will benefit me. applying what I learn when I can.



> The market will not go up every day.


this we can all agree on.

at this point you have a choice. you can stop posting here and keep your knowledge to yourself or you can share that knowledge here in hopes that a few will learn from it.
you could pick out a few folks an mentor them I would eagerly put my name on that list.
I believe you have alot of knowledge to share and you seem to be the type that likes to share knowledge. I hope you continue to do so.


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## Guest

When I think about day trading, I usually don't think trading in and out dozens of times a day. The PDT rules made a big difference in what you can do with a margin account but you can trade in a cash account all you want to. Most cash accounts take 3 days to settle though. My notion is more along the line of getting in and back out all within one trading session. As opposed to holding overnight for that huge 500 point gap down that will happen again. 
Another big problem I have had is in a different forum where I repeatedly said basically the same as I've said here, Always use a stop, And learn charts. For some reason, a few people felt it important to point out that my theory was wrong. I will tell you this, and it's not bragging. When the market dumps for days at a time, people that use stops and read charts are not losing their butts. 
It's good that you are interested in learning. If I tell you everything I know, it won't hurt you, thats for sure. But YOU will still have to decide what will work for you, and how to apply it. My biggest concern here is that the underlying tone is buy, buy, buy and when the market goes down they just hold and hope. I got friends that still own internet stocks they bought in 2000. I've not seen much about people setting stops, I'm glad you are.
Remember BVSN? I do. Oct 1, 1998, I bought some at $10.00. Over the next 2 years, it split 3:1 twice, a total of 9:1. and at the very top, those $10 shares were worth $2515. 2 years later, it has a 1:9 reverse stock split, then a few years later a 1:25 reverse split. So the 1 share became 3 shares, then 9 shares, then back to 1 share, then 1/25th of a share. Today BVSN traded at $8.52 a new low. that one share that I bought for $10 was worth $2515 is today worth 34 cents. That is the importance of setting a stop. I got out of the stock long before it ever made a top, but no doubt that there are people still holding it. I have friends that didn't sell DELL at 500(dropped below 10, 14.45 now), didn't sell RMBS at over 100, dropped to 4, 11 now. How can anybody not realize the validity of a stop?


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## mrpink

zong said:


> When I think about day trading, I usually don't think trading in and out dozens of times a day. The PDT rules made a big difference in what you can do with a margin account but you can trade in a cash account all you want to. Most cash accounts take 3 days to settle though. My notion is more along the line of getting in and back out all within one trading session. As opposed to holding overnight for that huge 500 point gap down that will happen again.


I can understand your thoughts on not holding overnight and eve agree with it. to much happens overnight that is out of your control and more often then not it is bad in my opinion. my trouble is that with limited funds as well as limited knowledge it is difficult at best to get in and out the same day and still have enough movement in stock price to make a profit.



> Another big problem I have had is in a different forum where I repeatedly said basically the same as I've said here, Always use a stop, And learn charts. For some reason, a few people felt it important to point out that my theory was wrong.


I have seen that happen to you in other parts of homesteading today. best you can do is state your thoughts and don't worry about others thoughts of your thoughts. there are many here that listen to your thoughts and try to incorporate them into there strategies even if they don't comment on your post. 



> I will tell you this, and it's not bragging. When the market dumps for days at a time, people that use stops and read charts are not losing their butts.


I agree and many of them are making money at the same time.



> It's good that you are interested in learning. If I tell you everything I know, it won't hurt you, thats for sure. But YOU will still have to decide what will work for you, and how to apply it.


yes I and only I am responsible for the trades I make and how I make them. my thing is that there are many things you as well as others here know that I and others can learn if we are willing to learn and you are willing to share.



> My biggest concern here is that the underlying tone is buy, buy, buy and when the market goes down they just hold and hope.


that has been taught for years. buy and hold for the long term. for some people that is probably the best thing for them to do. for others a modified version of your strategies are best



> I got friends that still own internet stocks they bought in 2000. I've not seen much about people setting stops, I'm glad you are.
> Remember BVSN? I do. Oct 1, 1998, I bought some at $10.00. Over the next 2 years, it split 3:1 twice, a total of 9:1. and at the very top, those $10 shares were worth $2515. 2 years later, it has a 1:9 reverse stock split, then a few years later a 1:25 reverse split. So the 1 share became 3 shares, then 9 shares, then back to 1 share, then 1/25th of a share. Today BVSN traded at $8.52 a new low. that one share that I bought for $10 was worth $2515 is today worth 34 cents. That is the importance of setting a stop. I got out of the stock long before it ever made a top, but no doubt that there are people still holding it. I have friends that didn't sell DELL at 500(dropped below 10, 14.45 now), didn't sell RMBS at over 100, dropped to 4, 11 now. How can anybody not realize the validity of a stop?



I've got a friend that doesn't even know what he owns or how good or bad it is doing, yet he will sit there and tell me his main goal is preserving his capital then criticize me for wanting to learn about options and such. he is a dear friend and very smart but I let those words of his go in one ear and out the other. I know more about his investment accounts then he does. matter of fact just today he asked me if he owned a certain stock I told him no he didn't and he looked confused and said he thought he did. I do not want to be like that I want to check my stock at least daily. I want to learn to make money no matter which way the market is going I look forward to reading your posts on the subject and learning from them.


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## frogmammy

Myself, I'm still working on learning the language and the VERY basics....

Mon


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## mrpink

frogmammy said:


> Myself, I'm still working on learning the language and the VERY basics....
> 
> Mon


then ask some questions. we might all learn from them.


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## Pigeon Lady

I'll second what Clovis and Mr.Pink said. If it hadn't been for Zong's advice I wouldn't have started using stops. I use Sharebuilder -it's not for active traders but an account I already had so just stayed with it - anyway, they used to charge extra for stop and limit orders but when I checked into it they're now free. 

If you haven't seen them, there are some interesting videos on Youtube. I like the Larry Williams ones. He struck me as making the most sense. I didn't know he was famous! 

The way the markets are at the moment I'm not sure if it's possible to follow a strategy. Everything is all over the place. And Sharebuilder doesn't support shorting. Probably a good thing for me, being such a green horn.


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## mrpink

I had the day off today and had till 2:30 to do as i wish. my real account wasn't doing much so thought I would try to do some true day trading on my play account. this was my results

at 10:36 i shorted 5000 shares of spex at $2:78. covered those shares with a limit order (that went through at 3:03 while I was in town) at $2.58 for a profit of $986.00 after trading fee's

between 11:47 and 1:50 i traded sdow 4 times to long positions and two short positions. all these trades occurred at prices between $40.04 and $39.49 (a $0.55 spread) for a total net profit of $560.00

so the days total profit was $1546 all on a day when the market was down 2.5% just wish it would have been real money


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## Guest

What was your maximum exposure at any one given moment(As in the 5k shares of SPEX at 2.78 was 13,900)?


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## mrpink

yes SPEX was $13,900 and I was short in it while I was trading SDOW. my largest exposure in SDOW was short 500 shares at $40.00 for $20,000 so highest total exposure at one one time on these two would have been $33,900.

this is from my trade history page showing 2 SDOW short positions and one long as well as the cover of my SPEX short.









this shows my short in SPEX and my first long in SDOW. ( I had intended to short SDOW first but looked at my chart with the moving averages and it was showing a long so I went with it) I only cleared $20 on this trade but it set me up for a better short


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## Guest

Well, 1546 profit from a 34k max exposure represents a 4 1/2% return. IF you were to trade with only 2k(the minimum amount needed for margin, which you need for shorting) And maxing your margin(4k margin from the 2k cash) you should have been able to return $180, 9% of your actual cash. Of course with that amount being under the 25k needed to bypass the PTD rules, you can only make 3 day trades in 5 days. And you've made 5 plus 3 closed trades from a previous day, according to the log. Still, thats a good rate of return, and following the PDT rules, it would have taken at least 6 days to have made the 5 day trades. Over an extended period of time, you can figure 5 day trades every 8.5 days, which works out to 150(more or less) day trades a year. You need to keep your returns in % form, because $180 return from a $2000 stake is not the same as $180 return from a 20,000 stake. A good thing to know is the "rule of 72" which tells you to divide your rate of return into 72 and that will be the number of time frames it will take to double your money. In other words, 2% a day will double your money in 36 days, 2% a week doubles in 36 weeks. Easy way to bypass the complexities of compounding returns. And with those 7 dollar fees, your return will be smaller because the fee is a flat rate, whether you're buying 2k or 20k of stock. 
Whether trading with a little money or a lot, you will need clarity of purpose, and not panic if it goes against you, Put your rules to trade by down in writing and never vary. It only takes one cancelled stop to ride that $2515 BVSN down to 34 cents.
By the way, CNBC has a simulated trading contest with a million dollar prize starting very soon...


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## mrpink

i'm not following you on the 2k with margin part there is always a would have could have should have part. thats why I am practicing so that I can learn to how to increase my potential. no bank around here pays 4 1/2% for 2 hours worth of savings.
I do agree on the keeping it in percent form and always do with real money, but since this is play then I didn't bother. just wanted to see if I could make money on a down day day trading (keep in mind I'm a beginner here). posted here to show others it can be done and hoping it might help get the thread moving a bit more.
I am very familiar with the rule of 72 have known about it for years (when I was a teenager I wanted to be a financial adviser and did alot of reading about money topics).

I agree with setting rules and not changing them thats one thing I hear over and over from traders.
I saw the cnbc contest and started to sign up for it then got to thinking pro's will be in that and I wouldn't stand a chance. even in scottrades little contest the top two gainer's are at 554.6% and 547.96% and the contest just started on the first of the month. I'm way down at 29th with 11.94% for the month which I consider pretty good since there are 350 people in it for the month


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## clovis

Just because I'm not saying much or posting doesn't mean much...

I am VERY interested in this stuff, much of it new to me, and I'm letting it sink in.

You guys are incredible with these trades!


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## clovis

frogmammy said:


> Myself, I'm still working on learning the language and the VERY basics....
> 
> Mon


Don't be afraid to ask questions. We will all learn something from it even if they are basic questions. I'm no expert, but am happy to help if I can.


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## Guest

mrpink said:


> i'm not following you on the 2k with margin part there is always a would have could have should have part. thats why I am practicing so that I can learn to how to increase my potential. no bank around here pays 4 1/2% for 2 hours worth of savings..............................
> ......................................
> I saw the cnbc contest and started to sign up for it then got to thinking pro's will be in that and I wouldn't stand a chance. even in scottrades little contest the top two gainer's are at 554.6% and 547.96% and the contest just started on the first of the month. I'm way down at 29th with 11.94% for the month which I consider pretty good since there are 350 people in it for the month


2k on margin will give you 4k to work with. if you return 4.5% on the 4k you're working with, that is 9% of the actual cash, which is 2k. 
As far as CNBC contest goes, the winner in 2007 was a waitress and former welder who had never watched CNBC before nor had she ever bought a stock. So much for the pro's.


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## mrpink

zong said:


> 2k on margin will give you 4k to work with. if you return 4.5% on the 4k you're working with, that is 9% of the actual cash, which is 2k.
> As far as CNBC contest goes, the winner in 2007 was a waitress and former welder who had never watched CNBC before nor had she ever bought a stock. So much for the pro's.


ok I gotch now. of course using that logic the 4.5 % would have to be recalculated because some of the $33,900 was margin as well. but theres no need to do that.

Interesting about the 2007 winner. some of the players in scottrade's contest claims that the only way to win is by using options. I don't know how true that is. I do know that my simple mind has not been able to understand them more then the simple buying calls and puts, and the time deterioration you explained a few days ago.
I should sign up for the cnbc contest its free and not going to hurt me for sure.


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## frogmammy

Been thinking about Trailing Stops...in what scenario would you be best placed to use one?

Mon


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## Guest

I trade futures, with a "OCA" (One cancels all) attached tier of orders. So, if I were to go long ES(S&P minifutures) at 1130, I may stage my OCA order at a 10 point target, a 2.5 point hard stop, and a 4 point trailing stop. Initially if the ES goes 2.5 points against me(the hard stop), it will take out my stop. the C part of the OCA kicks in and the other orders are cancelled, which keeps me from ending up in a position accidentally. If it goes my way, lets say 8 points, then starts to back up, the trailing stop will take me out once its moved 4 points off the high since my entry. Of course, you can adjust part of the order any time, take an exit when it seems to be going against you, raise your target etc. one click and it's done. Once you get the parameters of your OCA, it automatically becomes part of every order, and works exactly the same, in reverse, on a short position. I don't have to figure out a bunch of stuff every time, just get it right, enter it in "presets". One of the advantages to having a real trading platform


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## Halfway

An easy calculation is to find the average true range and set your stop about 20% wider than that range to allow some chop if you are in an up swing. 

What time frame of trade are you talking about?

I use trails for large positions, but it is too complicated for a short thread answer. 

Like the above, I too use OCOs for all my scalps and short term trades in ES.


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## Halfway

Always a good idea to buy big oil on the dips. We are years from reduction of usage when considering emerging markets and middle east stability will not increease soon. CVX and COP at the top of the list with RIG (Transocean) as a solid driller.

My .02 for the mid to long eterm.


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## willow_girl

I haven't posted lately as I haven't had time to research trades although I hope to get back in this winter!

But I just wanted to share ... my husband is supposed to be one of the callers on Jim Cramer's show tonight! 

He called in and left a message with his question, and Cramer's secretary called back and arranged for him to be on the air. OMG, I am so excited for him!


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## clovis

That is pretty cool Willow!!!!!


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## wes917

Zong I agree anyone not using stops is guaranteed to lose money. I am interested in options and would love to through my name in the mentoring pool if you ever decided to do that. That my experience with options is to selling covered calls. I have been tossing around the idea of taking 1k and string aside in my stock account to trade options as practice. I have read the rookies guide to options. I currently have candlestick charting that I am reading trying to learn how to recognize candlesticks quickly and accurately. 

I am well aware of the risks involved and also know all about variance as I played millions of hands of poker while in college to earn some extra side money before the online poker rooms were closed and before I had kids.

I am knew here and never imagined seeing a trading thread here while utilizing the gardening forums LOL. A one stop shop of sorts.


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## Guest

I've had weeks of success doing credit spreads with weekly expiring options. If anybody is really interested, I don't mind talking a little about it. In order to optimize profits, you need a discount type broker, you don't want to have to pay $10 plus $1.75 per contract in fees, or anything like that.


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## Guest

What?! Nobody interested in bear call spreads?


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## clovis

I would, if I knew what they were.

Folks don't come much dumber than me.


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## Halfway

Willow...and all.

Here are some oil, oil shale, and drillers that will see some additional attention very soon. Especially if we begin to export because of high costs.

COG
LUFK
CRR
CHK 
EOG
KOG
WLL
WG.

These are swing or positions....not day trades.

Do you own research.


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