# Wearing a Mask Again



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Yesterday, I watched a video by Dr. John Campbell on the Delta variant and another which was the weekly FLCCC update, also on the Delta variant. Dr. Joseph Varon, one of the founding members of the FLCCC and Chief of Staff at United Memorial Medical Center Sugarland. Sugarland, Texas, says his hospital is full of delta patients and he is seeing young, healthy adults getting extremely ill with the delta variant and some dying. While most patients are unvaccinated, he is also seeing a fair number of vaccinated patients.

And a few days ago, Trump's testing czar said this:

Americans who have not been vaccinated against the coronavirus will contract the Delta variant of COVID-19 sooner or later, former Health and Human Services (HHS) Assistant Secretary Brett Giroir said Thursday.​​“This is so infectious that you will get it,” Giroir told Fox News’ “America Reports,” adding: “If you have had COVID before, we don’t know exactly, but it’s looking like prior immunity is not so good against Delta, and I’m really concerned that the evidence is mounting that even natural immunity will not protect you against Delta. NYP​​None of this came across as fearmongering. These are all serious doctors who are warning us the delta variant is extremely contagious and appears to be more deadly than the originals Sars-cov2 virus.

One bit of advice Dr. Marik offered was to use a mouthwash that appears to kill the Sars-cov2 virus. 

In a laboratory setting, Listerine and the prescription mouthwash Chlorhexidine disrupted SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, within seconds after researchers diluted it to concentrations that would mimic actual use. Futurity​​I found that it is the Listerine Cool Mint that is the Listerine product. I also read there is a Crest mouthwash product that is supposed to work, but you need to research that.

On a prior FLCCC video, Dr. Marik had also recommended using a nasal flush to clean the virus from the nasal passage. I believe the recommended one is Xlear Nasal Spray with Xylitol, but please do your research.

The idea behind both the mouthwash and the nasal spray is to eliminate the virus while still in the nasal passage. This means you are using them prophylactically. Once the virus has spread outside of the nasal passage, I doubt either does much good.

They also recommended following the I-Mask+ protocol which includes Ivermectin and other supplements, plus wearing a mask.

I intend on doing all of these. I don't think I would make it through severe Covid-19, especially with the state of medicine where I live. I respect everyone's right to make their own choice of what they believe is best for them, but I have decided the best for me is to take every reasonable precaution. 

I'm posting this for a couple of reasons. The primary one is to provide what I hope is helpful information for those who might be interested in it. The 2nd is to say it is OK to change your mind as new information comes in. And I don't mean change your mind to agree with e. I'm just suggesting being flexible as new information becomes available.
​​​


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Yesterday I started wearing a mask again.

I just hope that the unvaccinated anti-maskers don't produce an even more deadly version of Delta.

I don't understand why there isn't a massive increase in vaccine production to vaccinate the rest of the world.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

With the importation of the un-vaccinated from south of the border to all parts of the US, the cat is out of the bag. Hold on it's going to be a bumpy ride.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

fishhead said:


> Yesterday I started wearing a mask again.
> 
> I just hope that the unvaccinated anti-maskers don't produce an even more deadly version of Delta.
> 
> I don't understand why there isn't a massive increase in vaccine production to vaccinate the rest of the world.


I don't think there is any proof delta is the result of a mutation in an unvaccinated person. Science says that a mutation that evades the vaccine is more likely to develop in a vaccinated person.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

no really said:


> With the importation of the un-vaccinated from south of the border to all parts of the US, the cat is out of the bag. Hold on it's going to be a bumpy ride.


I'm hoping it burns out in a month or 2, but the next couple of months could get bad.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm hoping it burns out in a month or 2, but the next couple of months could get bad.


Me too, the whole situation is crazy and could have been avoided.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

And before someone says masks don't work, the idea behind the I-Mask+ protocol is to do everything one can to reduce the amount of virus one is exposed to, to take Ivermectin to block the virus from getting into the cells and to take supplements that help the immune system fight off the virus. For a mask to be helpful, it only has to reduce the amount of virus that gets into the nasal passage, not completely block it.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Wonder when N-95 masks will available economically?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> Wonder when N-95 masks will available economically?


It looks like you can buy N95 or K95 masks for about $1 each on Amazon, but you have to buy a pack of them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb says what I was thinking. Delta is going to hit us really really hard, but it will fairly quickly burn out. I'm hoping the extra precautions I am taking are only for a couple of months.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if, on the whole, we’re infecting up to a million people a day right now, and we’re just picking up maybe a 10th of that or less than a 10th of that,” the former FDA commissioner said in an interview on “Squawk Box.”​​“Most of the spread and most of the people who are showing up in the hospital are younger people. If that’s where the infection is occurring, then there must be a lot more infection underneath the small numerator that’s showing up in the hospital,” added Gottlieb...​​“This delta wave will pass, probably at some point in September,” he predicted.​​







Dr. Scott Gottlieb estimates up to 1 million Americans infected with Covid daily as delta spreads


"I wouldn't be surprised if, on the whole, we're infecting up to a million people a day right now," Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC on Friday.




www.cnbc.com


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

MoonRiver said:


> Yesterday, I watched a video by Dr. John Campbell on the Delta variant and another which was the weekly FLCCC update, also on the Delta variant. Dr. Joseph Varon, one of the founding members of the FLCCC and Chief of Staff at United Memorial Medical Center Sugarland. Sugarland, Texas, says his hospital is full of delta patients and he is seeing young, healthy adults getting extremely ill with the delta variant and some dying. While most patients are unvaccinated, he is also seeing a fair number of vaccinated patients.
> 
> And a few days ago, Trump's testing czar said this:
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I have recently come to the decision that wearing a mask in public is what I am going to do. Mouthwash you mentioned is already being used. Thanks for the good info!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> With the importation of the un-vaccinated from south of the border to all parts of the US, the cat is out of the bag. Hold on it's going to be a bumpy ride.


That might be a valid point if there weren't so many unvaccinated US citizens. More than half if the country is not fully vaccinated, numbering around 180 million. Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.

But you are correct that this surge was avoidable. All we had to do was get the vaccine. We're paying the price today for vaccine hesitancy.

But like everyone else, I'm back to wearing a mask.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I forgot something that should have been in OP.

If you feel sick, get checked out immediately. Early treatment works - late treatment often doesn't. If you are sick for a week or more before getting checked out and you have the delta variant, you are in deep doo-doo.

Go to the FLCCC site and try to have all their recommended supplements and drugs available at home so you can begin treatment immediately.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

Nevada said:


> That might be a valid point if there weren't so many unvaccinated US citizens. More than half if the country is not fully vaccinated, numbering around 180 million. Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.


it sure can't hurt.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> That might be a valid point if there weren't so many unvaccinated US citizens. More than half if the country is not fully vaccinated, numbering around 180 million. Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.


Not when it looks like many, if not most, of the illegals, have the delta variant and are getting shipped all over the country. States with a high number of unvaccinated tend to be more rural southern states where cases have been relatively low over the last few months because people are outside a lot, people are more spread out, and likely have higher levels of vitamin d. Unfortunately, the delta variant is so infectious that it is going to be hard not to get it.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Unfortunately, the delta variant is so infectious that it is going to be hard not to get it.


It's easy to avoid the delta variant, simply get vaccinated. It turns out that the current vaccines are highly effective against the delta variant.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Nevada said:


> That might be a valid point if there weren't so many unvaccinated US citizens. More than half if the country is not fully vaccinated, numbering around 180 million. Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.
> 
> But you are correct that this surge was avoidable. All we had to do was get the vaccine. We're paying the price today for vaccine hesitancy.
> 
> But like everyone else, I'm back to wearing a mask.


That nat be true, but most Americans are not moving all over the country.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

MoonRiver said:


> Not when it looks like many, if not most, of the illegals, have the delta variant and are getting shipped all over the country. States with a high number of unvaccinated tend to be more rural southern states where cases have been relatively low over the last few months because people are outside a lot, people are more spread out, and likely have higher levels of vitamin d. Unfortunately, the delta variant is so infectious that it is going to be hard not to get it.


Don’t blame anyone but the unvaccinated and antimaskers for this wave. 
I wonder how long until a new US variant of concern will pop up due to the ignorance if so many.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

I have my mask ready but haven’t started wearing it yet. 
I live in an area that had a massive wave of the Brazilian variant in late winter. Would you believe 82% of the population has now been double vaxxed?
Yeah I expect another wave, but we are in a state of normality right now. And it isn’t normality of ignorance, the communities came together for this.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

po boy said:


> That nat be true, but most Americans are not moving all over the country.


That's not true. The freeways are packed with Americans traveling all over the country.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.


How many people did it take to start the initial infection in the United States?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tourists and Americans are allowed to be unvaccinated yet illegals are blamed nonstop. Just another dodge.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Nevada said:


> It's easy to avoid the delta variant, simply get vaccinated. It turns out that the current vaccines are highly effective against the delta variant.


I have seen media reports out of the States suggesting isn’t working well on the delta when initially it had been worldwide- I’m not sure what to believe or if anyone knows- maybe the delta in the States has changed due to the lack of vaccinations creating delta 2.0, hope not. But in Canada where we also have the delta…. The vaccinated aren’t getting it over and above the expected rate which is low. 
But with Americans beginning to cross our border my bet is we are about the get what is going around down there. 
The best way to create a new variant? Ignorance.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

fireweed farm said:


> Don’t blame anyone but the unvaccinated and antimaskers for this wave.
> I wonder how long until a new US variant of concern will pop up due to the ignorance if so many.


If a group approached your front door with a petition to identify and turn into the authorities anyone who had refused the vaccine or masking when outdoors, should the government enact punitive measures, would you sign it?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Tourists and Americans are allowed to be unvaccinated yet illegals are blamed nonstop. Just another dodge.


Illegals are just that, illegal. They be breaking the law.
They can be blamed automatically and it would be correct to do so.
That isn't a Dodge, madam, that would be defined as a bullseye.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.


It only takes one infected individual to start a pandemic. There are thousands of illegals being shipped all over the country. How does this help?


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

GTX63 said:


> If a group approached your front door with a petition to identify and turn into the authorities anyone who had refused the vaccine or masking when outdoors, should the government enact punitive measures, would you sign it?


Quick look over there! Lol.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I can still run pretty good.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Illegals are just that, illegal. They be breaking the law.
> They can be blamed automatically and it would be correct to do so.
> That isn't a Dodge, madam, that would be defined as a bullseye.


They are not the problem with Covid. It is misdirection. The laws apply to everyone equally. Either everyone is required to be vaccinated or no one is. Letting in one tourist or returning American that is not vaccinated is the same as allowing an unvaccinated illegal to move about the country.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

kinderfeld said:


> It only takes one infected individual to start a pandemic. There are thousands of illegals being shipped all over the country. How does this help?


And there are millions of often politically motivated antivaxxers driving trucks and travelling to small towns. Is that better or worse?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> They are not the problem with Covid. It is misdirection. The laws apply to everyone equally. Either everyone is required to be vaccinated or no one is. Letting in one tourist or returning American that is not vaccinated is the same as allowing an unvaccinated illegal to move about the country.


Sure they are. You are struggling with "a" and "the".
It doesn't matter whether they got a jab in Agua Priente, they are in violation of the law. They can be tossed back onto Mexican dirt for any number of reasons.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i think as of friday night we can go maskless. not sure about the stores. i was in friday and all the signs were still up and everyone had their mask on. i plan to keep mine on regardless. got so use to it now. i have always used listerine mouthwash. bet there will be a run on it now though. ~Georgia


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> And there are millions of often politically motivated antivaxxers driving trucks and travelling to small towns. Is that better or worse?


I wasn't comparing the two. Just addressing the drop in a bucket notion.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.

But, since you brought up the political angle I'll address that, as well. Don't you feel that shipping infected illegals all over the country is contradictory to what this administration is telling us is in our best interest regarding the covid pandemic? It almost seems as though something else, some other agenda takes priority over public safety.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That might be a valid point if there weren't so many unvaccinated US citizens. More than half if the country is not fully vaccinated, numbering around 180 million. Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.
> 
> But you are correct that this surge was avoidable. All we had to do was get the vaccine. We're paying the price today for vaccine hesitancy.
> 
> But like everyone else, I'm back to wearing a mask.


Again you are wrong, we are talking around a 500,000 illegals, seeded throughout the nation. KInda like typhoid Mary? 

LOL, I haven't seen a mask except at airports or hospitals in months. So you're not like everyone else. 🤣


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> It's easy to avoid the delta variant, simply get vaccinated. It turns out that the current vaccines are highly effective against the delta variant.


I think you might want to check the current data. The vaccines do not prevent someone who is vaccinated from becoming infected with the delta variant and they do not protect against that person infecting someone else. Although most breakthrough cases do not result in severe Covis-19 or death, some do.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

fireweed farm said:


> Don’t blame anyone but the unvaccinated and antimaskers for this wave.
> I wonder how long until a new US variant of concern will pop up due to the ignorance if so many.


It swept through Israel and UK where almost everyone is vaccinated. Sorry to blow up your belief with a fact.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't think there is any proof delta is the result of a mutation in an unvaccinated person. Science says that a mutation that evades the vaccine is more likely to develop in a vaccinated person.


Now that is some strong Sciencing!, right there.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

fireweed farm said:


> Don’t blame anyone but the unvaccinated and antimaskers for this wave.
> I wonder how long until a new US variant of concern will pop up due to the ignorance if so many.


That’s a good question. Unfortunately, only one source knows the answer: The BBC.

Why don’t you switch off and turn them on, and wait for them to tell you what you wanted to hear?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> LOL, I haven't seen a mask except at airports or hospitals in months. So you're not like everyone else. 🤣


We're under a renewed statewide mask mandate here. It's difficult to avoid. You'll need a face mask at the supermarket, drug stores, restaurants, and casinos. The requirement is even for the vaccinated.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That might be a valid point if there weren't so many unvaccinated US citizens. More than half if the country is not fully vaccinated, numbering around 180 million. Illegal border crossings are a drop in the bucket compared to the unvaccinated Americans who are already here.
> 
> But you are correct that this surge was avoidable. All we had to do was get the vaccine. We're paying the price today for vaccine hesitancy.
> 
> But like everyone else, I'm back to wearing a mask.


The Delta variant was clearly caused by The Cold mutating to get around the vaccine. If this country were really smart, we’d start going door to door and turning over peoples’ houses, looking for receipts for free Crispy Cremes and Covid State Lottery tickets, and hauling those people away to work camps, or just shooting the unfit ones on their lawns. 

Isn’t that what we’re supposed to do at this point in the story?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> We're under a renewed statewide mask mandate here. It's difficult to avoid. You'll need a face mask at the supermarket, drug stores, restaurants, and casinos. The requirement is even for the vaccinated.


Good to know, I will avoid Nevada like the plaque, pun intended. 🤣 Wonder how many typhoid Mary's Nevada received? LOL


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## rebar (Jul 8, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> I think you might want to check the current data. The vaccines do not prevent someone who is vaccinated from becoming infected with the delta variant and they do not protect against that person infecting someone else. Although most breakthrough cases do not result in severe Covis-19 or death, some do.


Most of the jabbed are in denial. 

Are we really afraid of a virus that kills less than 1% of the people who get actually get sick? Especially because many have already been infected and are immune after almost 2 years?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> They are not the problem with Covid. It is misdirection. The laws apply to everyone equally. Either everyone is required to be vaccinated or no one is. Letting in one tourist or returning American that is not vaccinated is the same as allowing an unvaccinated illegal to move about the country.


Do you believe our southern border should be opened to whomever wants in?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> Do you believe our southern border should be opened to whomever wants in?


No.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

rebar said:


> Most of the jabbed are in denial.
> 
> Are we really afraid of a virus that kills less than 1% of the people who get actually get sick? Especially because many have already been infected and are immune after almost 2 years?


I'm afraid of the delta variant. When a person becomes infected, they get a very large dose of virus. If you are near someone who is infected, you are likely to become infected. I think they are saying it is something like 1 to 8 - 1 infected person infects 8 more.

Death is bad, but so is a serious illness and long covid. If someone becomes seriously ill with Covid-19, it is likely to be with them for a very long time. We do know that some people who have previously had Covid-19 have become infected with the delta variant. I haven't seen any estimate of how many.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Again you are wrong, we are talking around a 500,000 illegals, seeded throughout the nation. KInda like typhoid Mary?


Since so many see the mask & vaccine topic as an issue of freedom, it's curious that you bring up Typhoid Mary. She was incarcerated for life on an island in New York Harbor for refusing to follow health department guidelines. Despite a number of court appeals, she remained incarcerated until her death.

The deal with her was that she wasn't a very bright person, so she didn't understand the concept of being a carrier with no symptoms. She honestly believed that the whole carrier thing was nonsense. On top of that, the only thing she knew how to do to make a living was food service, which is the last place a typhoid carrier should be.

When there was a typhoid outbreak from a New York cafeteria, they always found Mary back in the kitchen. They released her several times on the promise that she wouldn't do food service work, but she always went back to being a food preparer. Finally they banished her to Riverside Hospital, a public quarantine hospital, on North Brother Island located in NY Harbor. She died in 1938, ten years before an antibiotic that could cure typhoid would be developed.

The fact that Mary Mallon could be incarcerated for life by refusing the follow health department guidelines illustrates the power that health departments have. So to those who suggest that they have some kind of constitutional protection for refusing face masks and vaccines, I say consider the story of Typhoid Mary.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Oh my...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Since so many see the mask & vaccine topic as an issue of freedom, it's curious that you bring up Typhoid Mary. She was incarcerated for life on an island in New York Harbor for refusing to follow health department guidelines. Despite a number of court appeals, she remained incarcerated, until her death.
> 
> The deal with her was that she wasn't a very bright person, so she didn't understand the concept of being a carrier with no symptoms. She honestly believed that the whole carrier thing was nonsense. On top of that, the only thing she knew how to do to make a living was food service, which is the last place a typhoid carrier should be.
> 
> ...


LOL, yes there used to be a lot of abuse of the mentally ill years ago. Things are different now, unless our nation continues in it's march to communism. Which seems might be the choice of some, not realizing they would be the first to be considered useless eaters. Funny thought, staging those with questionable vax status in various parts of the nation might be a way to eliminate some of the older less productive population?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There are far more Americans not vaccinated all over this country than illegal that may not be vaccinated. There are far more people legally cross the southern border who are not checked for vaccination status than illegals.

If traveling Americans and tourists are not required to be vaccinated then it does not matter that illegals are not either.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Sure it does. They are here in violation of 3..2..1.. the law.
You can conflate US citizens with the criminal trespassers in order to convince yourself, but that would make one of you.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Sure it does. They are here in violation of 3..2..1.. the law.
> You can conflate US citizens with the criminal trespassers in order to convince yourself, but that would make one of you.


 Breaking a law has nothing to do with vaccinations. No one arrested for breaking the law is required to get vaccinated. Every one is to be treated equally under the laws of this country.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Breaking a law has nothing to do with vaccinations. No one arrested for breaking the law is required to get vaccinated. Every one is to be treated equally under the laws of this country.



LOL, Hunter Biden..


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Breaking a law has nothing to do with vaccinations. No one arrested for breaking the law is required to get vaccinated. Every one is to be treated equally under the laws of this country.


If you were struggling to understand the concept I could help, but I don't even think you grasp what you are saying.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> If you were struggling to understand the concept I could help, but I don't even think you grasp what you are saying.


I guess we can force all US citizens that have broken the laws to get vaccinated if we can force others who have broken the law to get vaccinated under your version if the US laws.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

painterswife said:


> I guess we can force all US citizens that have broken the laws to get vaccinated if we can force others who have broken the law to get vaccinated under your version if the US laws.


Finally you have stated the hoped for ending to this invasion.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> LOL, yes there used to be a lot of abuse of the mentally ill years ago. Things are different now, unless our nation continues in it's march to communism.


Mary Mallon wasn't mentally ill. Stupid perhaps, but not mentally ill.

The reason they banished her to a quarantine facility was her use of a alias. As I recall, all of the cafeterias in New York were warned not to hire Mary Mallon. After getting turned down by a number of restaurants based on her name, she applied to work at a hospital kitchen as Mary Brown. The resulting outbreak sickened at least 25 doctors, nurses and patients, and several died. When health department officials arrived to investigate the outbreak, sure enough -- Mary was preparing food in the kitchen. Mary's use of an alias demonstrated her determination to work in food service, convincing a judge that she needed to be banished to a quarantine hospital.

The health department taking the drastic step of permanent incarceration was heavy-handed, but that's not communism.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

The only logical conclusion would be to load the illegals and ship them to their countries of origin.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Mary Mallon wasn't mentally ill. Stupid perhaps, but not mentally ill.
> 
> The reason they banished her to a quarantine facility was her use of a alias. As I recall, all of the cafeterias in New York were warned not to hire Mary Mallon. After geting turned down from a number of restaurants based on her name, she applied to work at a hospital kitchen as Mary Brown. The outbreak sickened at least 25 doctors, nurses and patients, and several died. When health department officials arrived to investigate the outbreak, sure enough -- Mary was preparing food in the kitchen. Mary's use of an alias demonstrated her determination to work in food service, convincing a judge that she needed to be banished to a quarantine hospital.
> 
> The health department taking the drastic step of permanent incarceration was heavy-handed, but that's not communism.


You don't have to keep repeating the story, most people have knowledge of it. It also has no bearing on the conversation, it's simply another obvious attempt to divert from the real issue.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I guess we can force all US citizens that have broken the laws to get vaccinated if we can force others who have broken the law to get vaccinated under your version if the US laws.


You are trying to use an absolute where it doesn't apply.

Now pay attention. The difference between a law breaking American and a law breaking illegal alien is that we are to be jailed or penalized and they are to be sent back home. Because administration of the law varies with who is in office does not change that fact.
School fights happen, but kids that don't go to school there aren't put into detention with the other students.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Mary Mallon wasn't mentally ill. Stupid perhaps, but not mentally ill.


Would that opinion be based on your mindset or the mindset of her era.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You are trying to use an absolute where it doesn't apply.
> 
> Now pay attention. The difference between a law breaking American and a law breaking illegal alien is that we are to be jailed or penalized and they are to be sent back home. Because administration of the law varies with who is in office does not change that fact.
> School fights happen, but kids that don't go to school there aren't put into detention with the other students.


Due process. The laws of the US give anyone on US soil ( even illegals) the right to due process. Someones like or dislike of that has no bearing on the actual law.

Jail or removal is not the automatic result of illegal entry under the laws and even if jailed vaccination can not be forced.

It is hypocritical to only be concerned with the vacation status of illegal aliens crossing the border and not of tourists and Americans.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> So to those who suggest that they have some kind of constitutional protection for refusing face masks and vaccines, I say consider the story of Typhoid Mary.


One thing is not like the other.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tp


painterswife said:


> It is hypocritical to only be concerned with the vacation status of illegal aliens crossing the border and not of tourists and Americans.


Please find my post regarding my not being concerned about anyone else.
I'll be moving here and there but I promise to check back with you.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Due process.


Ah, a bias seems to be sprouting. Now I understand your perspective.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Ah, a bias seems to be sprouting. Now I understand your perspective.


No bias . I personally wish everyone that can is vaccinated. I understand though that the laws don't require it even of those that have broken other laws.

I also understand that Covid and the variety of it are already here and just vaccinating illegals makes no difference when you still allow unvaccinated tourists and Americans to enter the country.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> You don't have to keep repeating the story, most people have knowledge of it. It also has no bearing on the conversation, it's simply another obvious attempt to divert from the real issue.


And blaming illegal immigration on the current covid outbreak wasn't an attempt to divert attention away from vaccine hesitant citizens?


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Nevada said:


> And blaming illegal immigration on the current covid outbreak wasn't an attempt to divert attention away from vaccine hesitant citizens?


No one has blamed the outbreak on illegals, simply pointed out that they contribute to the problem and the administration doesn't care.
The left seems to be fixated on blaming vax rates on conservatives. The fact is the black vax rate is 12% and Hispanic is around 17%. They make up about 30% of the population.


----------



## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

fishhead said:


> Yesterday I started wearing a mask again.
> 
> I just hope that the unvaccinated anti-maskers don't produce an even more deadly version of Delta.
> 
> I don't understand why there isn't a massive increase in vaccine production to vaccinate the rest of the world.


I never stopped wearing a mask because of the unvaccinated and potential of breakthrough infection. Having heart disease pretty much guarantees a stay in the hospital. I don't want to be in the hospital so I chose to look like an idiot and wear a mask where no one else was. 

Except most were wearing masks. Usually those 50 and up. We were actually the majority of those not wearing.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> And blaming illegal immigration on the current covid outbreak wasn't an attempt to divert attention away from vaccine hesitant citizens?


Oh my dear, these are people that are likely to spread that feared illness to all. They are the nexus to the next major outbreak. Ignoring that is typical for those that are of a certain mindset.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Would that opinion be based on your mindset or the mindset of her era.


The most interesting aspect of Mary Mallon's incarceration was her basis for appeal, which was that the health department couldn't prove that Mary was a typhoid carrier. And that was true. The "carrier" allegation was a hypothesis that fit the circumstances, but could not be proven. So, by definition, her incarceration was undeniably unconstitutional. Nobody argued otherwise. But still, no judge was going to release Typhoid Mary back into the general population.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

po boy said:


> No one has blamed the outbreak on illegals, simply pointed out that they contribute to the problem and the administration doesn't care.


Bingo.



po boy said:


> The left seems to be fixated on blaming vax rates on conservatives. The fact is the black vax rate is 12% and Hispanic is around 17%. They make up about 30% of the population.


And these are, by and large, democrat voters. Seems that some don't have the same memory problems that Biden likely does. They may be hesitant because of what the democrats were saying before the last election.









Democrats grow more wary of COVID-19 vaccine safety | YouGov


Democrats are 30-points more likely than Republicans to be worried about the speed of vaccine development (90% vs 60%).




today.yougov.com





_According to a new Economist/YouGov Poll, Democrats are 30-points more likely than Republicans to be worried about the speed of vaccine development (90% vs 60%). Democrats’ concern about the eventual vaccine’s safety has increased steadily from 79% in mid-July — when the United States hit its prior high of coronavirus cases — to 90% in recent weeks. _









Democrats say they need to hear from scientists, not Trump, that vaccine is safe | CNN Politics


Congressional Democrats -- citing concerns over the possibility of political interference in the rush to develop a coronavirus vaccine -- say they will look to scientists, not President Donald Trump, to ensure that if one becomes available it is both safe and effective.




www.cnn.com





_In more than a dozen interviews with Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill, most members of Congress said they stand ready and willing to take any potential Food and Drug Administration-approved coronavirus vaccine. But Democrats insist that they will need more than a promise from Trump that it will work, and argue that the President does not have credibility on the issue at a time when his administration has stumbled to contain the pandemic and has made sweeping promises about the timeline for a vaccine and treatments. _


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

I get it. It was an election year. But, some don't make that connection. The pandemic was politicized and the Trump vaccine discredited by people who care about only one thing. Well, it worked. Dementia Joe is in office. Just sucks that people are dying as a result.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Mreyonlds and I said over a year ago if you can smell a fart mask were useless.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

TripleD said:


> Mreyonlds and I said over a year ago if you can smell a fart mask were useless.


Think how bad it would smell if you didn't have the mask on!

That's the purpose of masks. To stop some of the virus particles, not all of them. The fewer that get into your nose, the better chance your immune system can fight it off.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

TripleD said:


> Mreyonlds and I said over a year ago if you can smell a fart mask were useless.


Read an article by a group of scientists, that covid could be spread through farts. Maybe we are going to end up all wearing depends. LOL


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Read an article by a group of scientists


It's not like anyone around here believes scientists anyway.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> Think how bad it would smell if you didn't have the mask on!
> 
> That's the purpose of masks. To stop some of the virus particles, not all of them. The fewer that get into your nose, the better chance your immune system can fight it off.


The virus particles are either smaller than the porosity of a breathable material or they are not. Early on it seemed important the concentration and length of time of your initial exposure to the Wuflu. Very few people have not been exposed to one degree or another now.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> The virus particles are either smaller than the porosity of a breathable material or they are not. Early on it seemed important the concentration and length of time of your initial exposure to the Wuflu. Very few people have not been exposed to one degree or another now.


Some get deflected and some get blocked. They are not smart enough to look for the holes. Plus I wear a KN95 mask which is similar to N95.


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

painterswife said:


> They are not the problem with Covid. It is misdirection. The laws apply to everyone equally. Either everyone is required to be vaccinated or no one is. Letting in one tourist or returning American that is not vaccinated is the same as allowing an unvaccinated illegal to move about the country.
> [/QU





Nevada said:


> It's not like anyone around here believes scientists anyway.


The million dollar question, which scientist?


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Nevada said:


> It's not like anyone around here believes scientists anyway.


Most know there is more than one scientist and scientific opinion. It appears a lot is driven by politics, money, and somewhere a little factual data.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> It's not like anyone around here believes scientists anyway.


I am pretty confident that you wouldn't know science if it hit you upside the head with a 2x4. I'll amend that blunt statement to you wouldn't acknowledge science, rather than know science.


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Good to see you back Nevada. Hope you're doing well.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

I have determined that when it is my time, God will take me, but I WON'T go to extreme measures isolate/mask/drug protocols/vaccine to keep that from happening as nature intended.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

CKelly78z said:


> I have determined that when it is my time, God will take me, but I WON'T go to extreme measures isolate/mask/drug protocols/vaccine to keep that from happening as nature intended.


You consider taking a lifesaving vaccine to be an extreme measure?

Have you considered the possibility that covid vaccines were developed with God's guiding hand? If so, doesn't God want you to take it?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Are you speaking for Him?


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I wondered what the people were going to do, that created all of the fear and panic over the latest cold bug to plague humanity. Enter the delta variant. It's a political platform, nothing more. Hey, it worked, let's see how long we can ride it.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Are you speaking for Him?


I kind of doubt that God speaks through me. But a totally fatalistic attitude is poor mental hygiene. There has to be a limit. If you refuse the vaccine & refuse to wear a face mask and come down with covid, that's not Gods will. That's cause & effect.

How far are you prepared to go with religious fatalism? Is it God's will that you have a home a eat regularly? Would a true Christian quit his job to find out, or does God want us to show good sense by working?

If there is a God, I don't see why he wouldn't want his followers to be healthy and happy. Like a good parent, God would want us to take advantage of the opportunities available to us. Covid vaccines are one such opportunity.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Your previous guilt thru Patriotism made me salute and buy a set of Flag styled bath towels.
Now I must go find a Red Roof and steal a Bible.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

no really said:


> Read an article by a group of scientists, that covid could be spread through farts. Maybe we are going to end up all wearing depends. LOL


Really?! We were on a plane going cross country a couple of weeks ago and I asked my husband if we would all be wearing butt masks if that were true.

He acted like I was a crazy person. I need to find that article lol


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“If you refuse the vaccine & refuse to wear a face mask and come down with covid, that's not Gods will.”~Nevada


Nevada, you don’t get to decide what is God’s will or not. What staggering arrogance you exhibit.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

po boy said:


> Most know there is more than one scientist and scientific opinion. It appears a lot is driven by politics, money, and somewhere a little factual data.


You only say that because of the differing scientific opinions we see on Fox News. But those aren't really scientific opinions. Those are ideas from people with scientific degrees who are paid to take a particular political position. You won't see that kind of discussion in real engineering meetings. While there are always different ways to approach a problem, when it comes to underlying scientific facts everyone is on the same page.

I think you know that. Nobody really believes that engineers can build bridges and tall buildings any way they want to.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nevada, you don’t get to decide what is God’s will or not.


Then why does @CKelly78z get to decide what is God's will?


----------



## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “If you refuse the vaccine & refuse to wear a face mask and come down with covid, that's not Gods will.”~Nevada
> 
> 
> Nevada, you don’t get to decide what is God’s will or not. What staggering arrogance you exhibit.


Gotta agree with Nevada on this one.

And you don't get to decide either.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> You only say that because of the differing scientific opinions we see on Fox News. But those aren't really scientific opinions. Those are ideas from people with scientific degrees who are paid to take a particular political position. You won't see that kind of discussion in real engineering meetings. While there are always different ways to approach a problem, when it comes to underlying scientific facts everyone is on the same page.
> 
> I think you know that. Nobody really believes that engineers can build bridges and tall buildings any way they want to.


I think you just wrote a reply based entirely on an assumption.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> I think you just wrote a reply based entirely on an assumption.


I did that kind of work, so I'm speaking from experience.

But seriously, you don't really believe that engineers can build things any way they want. If you believed that you would have to be crazy to enter a tall building or drive across a bridge. And that goes for nearly everything else in our lives, even our food and water supply.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I bet they have accurate measurements and do actual math to come up with the structural supports they want to use, though.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

No, I think you prefaced a reply based entirely on the assumed ideology of a member rather than what they said.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I did that kind of work, so I'm speaking from experience.


No, I think you prefaced a reply based entirely on the assumed ideology of a member rather than what they said.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Mish said:


> I bet they have accurate measurements and do actual math to come up with the structural supports they want to use, though.


My point is that there won't be scientists in the room arguing that water runs uphill.


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Nevada said:


> You consider taking a lifesaving vaccine to be an extreme measure?
> 
> Have you considered the possibility that covid vaccines were developed with God's guiding hand? If so, doesn't God want you to take it?


You forgot to add "experimental' to your vaccine comment.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Nevada said:


> My point is that there won't be scientists in the room arguing that water runs uphill.


I'm not seeing anyone implying the equivalent of that in the metaphor.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> My point is that there won't be scientists in the room arguing that water runs uphill.


I'm getting the impression you are turning more candidates for a jab away than you are collecting for master.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Nevada said:


> You only say that because of the differing scientific opinions we see on Fox News. But those aren't really scientific opinions. Those are ideas from people with scientific degrees who are paid to take a particular political position. You won't see that kind of discussion in real engineering meetings. While there are always different ways to approach a problem, when it comes to underlying scientific facts everyone is on the same page.
> 
> I think you know that. Nobody really believes that engineers can build bridges and tall buildings any way they want to.


Wrong!

My antenna doesn't pick up FOX. Do people like you get a lollipop when u mention Fox?

It's like all the smear words your team uses, they are overused and it is childish to use them.
You lost the science argument with all the outlandish claims you all use about global warming.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Riverdale said:


> You forgot to add "experimental' to your vaccine comment.


Both polio vaccines were also experimental. Still, American parents were frantic to protect their children from the horrors infantile paralysis. Taking an experimental vaccine was a small price to pay for keeping their kids out of leg braces or an iron lung.

I can still remember getting the three Salk vaccine shots during the mid 1950s, then taking the oral Sabin vaccine during the early 1960s.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Y’all are off the rails. I didn’t claim to know God’s will. I don’t watch Fox News or CNN or and news network.

BLESS YOUR HEARTS!!


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> You consider taking a lifesaving vaccine to be an extreme measure?
> 
> Have you considered the possibility that covid vaccines were developed with God's guiding hand? If so, doesn't God want you to take it?


God need to help invent a vaccine for the disease he help create. Got it


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

po boy said:


> Do people like you get a lollipop when u mention Fox?


I don't have cable or satellite service either. Interestingly, Fox News is now considered to be too far to the left for a lot of conservatives.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Both polio vaccines were also experimental. Still, American parents were frantic to protect their children from the horrors infantile paralysis. Taking an experimental vaccine was a small price to pay for keeping their kids out of leg braces or an iron lung.
> 
> I can still remember getting the three Salk vaccine shots during the mid 1950s, then taking the oral Sabin vaccine during the early 1960s.


Maybe that's the difference between this shot (which is not a vaccine) and the polio vaccine.

The horrors of polio and its aftermath were well known. The horrors covid (and it's aftermath?) are highly questionable. If only .1% of people who contracted polio had long term side effects, and the polio vaccine only partially protected people from it, well, maybe parents wouldn't have been as frantic to protect their children with an experimental vaccine.

Also, why is it OK to compare Covid to Polio but not to compare Covid to the flu?

Just wondering.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I don’t watch Fox News or CNN or and news network.


Me either. I just get what I can access with an antenna.

Las Vegas boasts that we have 45 over-the-air channels, but that's somewhat deceiving. When you back out channels that are duplicates, Spanish, religious, and home shopping there are only about 20 or so channels that are truly watchable. The only news I get on TV is from the major networks. I usually watch the evening local & national news shows on NBC.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Mish said:


> Also, why is it OK to compare Covid to Polio but not to compare Covid to the flu?
> 
> Just wondering.


You can't logically compare covid to the flu. While tens of thousands die from flu, hundreds of thousands die from covid.

It might interest you to know that most polio victims didn't die, or even end up in leg braces or iron lungs. The vast majority had flu-like symptoms.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> You can't logically compare covid to the flu. While tens of thousands die from flu, hundreds of thousands die from covid.
> 
> It might interest you to know that most polio victims didn't die, or even end up in leg braces or iron lungs. The vast majority had flu-like symptoms.


Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of logic in your posts.
Guilt, emotion based statements with a few labels thrown in for effect.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Mish said:


> If only .1% of people who contracted polio had long term side effects, and the polio vaccine only partially protected people from it, well, maybe parents wouldn't have been as frantic to protect their children with an experimental vaccine.


Understand that the vaccine itself isn't what protects you from the virus. Introducing the vaccine into the body triggers the production of antibodies. It's those antibodies that provide protection. So the level of protection you get is dependent on your body's ability to produce antibodies, which is not the same for everyone. Some people are born with immune deficiencies, some develop immune deficiencies from illness, and others are immune deficient as the result of medications. So it's not the fault of the vaccine for not working all the time.

The polio vaccine rollout wasn't without its own problems. One Salk vaccine manufacturer sent out a batch of polio vaccine that wasn't attenuated, so it contained live polio virus that was actually injected into people, even children. Some vaccine hesitancy resulted. But you can't blame Salk for that, and it wasn't likely to ever happen again. Still, the entire population wasn't vaccinated for polio until the Sabin oral vaccine was introduced in the early 1960s.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> My point is that there won't be scientists in the room arguing that water runs uphill.


I guess that depends on your perspective.

If the water started from a bigger hill ...


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> You can't logically compare covid to the flu. While tens of thousands die from flu, hundreds of thousands die from covid.
> 
> It might interest you to know that most polio victims didn't die, or even end up in leg braces or iron lungs. The vast majority had flu-like symptoms.


Hmm, most covid infected do not die. Often times have flu like symptoms.


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Understand that the vaccine itself isn't what protects you from the virus. Introducing the vaccine into the body triggers the production of antibodies. It's those antibodies that provide protection. So the level of protection you get is dependent on your body's ability to produce antibodies, which is not the same for everyone. Some people are born with immune deficiencies, some develop immune deficiencies from illness, and others are immune deficient as the result of medications. So it's not the fault of the vaccine for not working all the time.
> 
> The polio vaccine rollout wasn't without its own problems. One Salk vaccine manufacturer sent out a batch of polio vaccine that wasn't attenuated, so it contained live polio virus that was actually injected into people, even children. Some vaccine hesitancy resulted. But you can't blame Salk for that, and it wasn't likely to ever happen again. Still, the entire population wasn't vaccinated for polio until the Sabin oral vaccine was introduced in the early 1960s.


Thank you for summing up why I won't get the shot(s). I'll rely on my own body to produce the antibodies rather than have an unproven substance introduced to it which will more than likely reduce my natural immune system to the next "variant".


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gilberte said:


> Thank you for summing up why I won't get the shot(s). I'll rely on my own body to produce the antibodies rather than have an unproven substance introduced to it which will more than likely reduce my natural immune system to the next "variant".


Why do you believe a vaccine will compromise your immune system? I didn't suggest anything of the kind.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

- haven't read even the 1st post but here are some facts about masks & CoV--

-paper masks with the ear loops ae only 40% effective in stopping particles in artifical lab studies EPA Researchers Test Effectiveness of Face Masks, Disinfection Methods Against COVID-19 | US EPA

- surgical masks were only 56% effective in preventing viral URI/flu in a hospitla setting; cloth masks were 3% effective A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers - PubMed (nih.gov)

Pore size of surgical masks 80-500um Optical microscopic study of surface morphology and filtering efficiency of face masks - PubMed (nih.gov) Diameter of CoV-- 0.1 um SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) by the numbers (nih.gov) If you fail t appreciate the futility of masks just based on this, have your caretaker explain it to you....This is equivalent to shooting a basket ball at a hoop 800 ft across. Even with the palsy you'd get nuthin'-but-net every time.

If masks are only 40% effective, then assuming a 100% exposure rate on leaving your home, you would get infected once in every 2.5 trips...If there was 0% chance, you wouldn't need a mask (obviously). For exposure risks in between the 0 & 100%, the number of safe trips wearing a maks decreases from all 2.5 down to one out of 2.5.

Would you bother using a birth control pill that was only 40% effective? Maybe-- if you only expected to get lucky once, but by the third oppotunjity, odds are you should've danced all night.

Follow the science? What a crock.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

doc- said:


> - haven't read even the 1st post but here are some facts about masks & CoV--
> 
> -paper masks with the ear loops ae only 40% effective in stopping particles in artifical lab studies EPA Researchers Test Effectiveness of Face Masks, Disinfection Methods Against COVID-19 | US EPA
> 
> ...


Sounds about right. I never believed that face masks could stop the spread of a virus, but it can slow the spread. While listening to Fauci encourage the use of face masks I got the impression that the objective was to slow the spread enough to prevent overwhelming the hospital system. I believe that, along with social distancing & staying home more, face masks can slow the spread enough to make a difference.

But we have bigger problems than the effectiveness of face masks. Some Americans persist in attending potential superspreader events and refusing vaccines, which will undoubtedly prolong the pandemic.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Isn't obama having a big birthday party? Around 475 guests, of course it isn't a problem, is it?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, trust your leaders and do as they say.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

doc- said:


> - haven't read even the 1st post but here are some facts about masks & CoV--
> 
> -paper masks with the ear loops ae only 40% effective in stopping particles in artifical lab studies EPA Researchers Test Effectiveness of Face Masks, Disinfection Methods Against COVID-19 | US EPA
> 
> ...


But you are infected by fewer virus particles (viral dose) giving your immune system a better shot at it. Also, a mask is supposed to be used with other methods of protection. The government never did properly explain what masks can and can't do.

FLCCC makes this point about mask wearing. Masks will help reduce spread indoors as long as the four main risk factors that predict transmission within indoor spaces; Density, Duration, Dimensions, and Draft are not violated::

Density – # of people in the room
Duration – # of hours spent in the room
Dimensions – # of square feet and ceiling height of the room
Draft – amount of fresh air entry/speed of air flow
The author, Dr. Pierre Kory also makes this point about N95 masks.

The safety of N95’s can be illustrated by the fact that I have been caring for critically ill patients with COVID for 11 straight months in ICU’s… and I haven’t gotten COVID That’s because I wear N95’s around infected patients and all the health care workers wear masks and try not to overcrowd communal workspaces. It works – many of my colleagues working in ICU’s and hospitals, have not gotten COVID since we all started wearing N95’s. But, in the time before widespread use of N95’s and mask wearing became standard in hospitals, many doctors and nurses and aides were getting COVID. I had a number of scary COVID illness episodes hit my network of colleagues, with several deaths among the wider New York City community of physicians. FLCCC​
What I get from all the articles I have read on mask wearing is that by itself, wearing a mask (except for N95/KN95) does little to prevent infection by the SARS-COV2 virus. But if the wearer also observes the 4 indoor factors of density, duration, dimensions, and draft, a mask provides an additional level of protection. 

So when @Doc asks if you would use a birth control pill that was only 40% effective, if in combination with other protective measures heck yes.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Isn't obama having a big birthday party? Around 475 guests, of course it isn't a problem, is it?


I'll do my part by not going. I'm butt hurt over not being invited anyway.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe it is on pay per view.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Maybe it is on pay per view.


Bet it is, gotta make a little side coin. 🤣


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> Isn't obama having a big birthday party? Around 475 guests, of course it isn't a problem, is it?


Only Red states have an issue from what I hear. He is probably having this party in a Blue state.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> But you are infected by fewer virus particles (viral dose) giving your immune system a better shot at it. Also, a mask is supposed to be used with other methods of protection. The government never did properly explain what masks can and can't do.
> 
> FLCCC makes this point about mask wearing. Masks will help reduce spread indoors as long as the four main risk factors that predict transmission within indoor spaces; Density, Duration, Dimensions, and Draft are not violated::
> 
> ...


But that's pretty well blown out if the water if the HVAC is working properly. Most places don't use a real HEPA filter. I'm not taking about the kind you buy at Lowes either.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Only Red states have an issue from what I hear. He is probably having this party in a Blue state.


Yes, Massachusetts is as blue as it gets.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> But that's pretty well blown out if the water if the HVAC is working properly. Most places don't use a real HEPA filter. I'm not taking about the kind you buy at Lowes either.


In an indoor gathering of people, I doubt that a HEPA filter in the HVAC system will do a lot of good in preventing the spread of disease. The air exchange isn't nearly fast enough.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Yes, Massachusetts is as blue as it gets.


Yep, and seems to rules are different, huh?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Yep, and seems to rules are different, huh?


It's not as bad as you make it sound. I read that they're requiring a vaccine or negative covid test. It's also being held outside.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> It's not as bad as you make it sound. I read that they're requiring a vaccine or negative covid test. It's also being held outside.


Of course it's not, LOL. Besides no politicians have broken the covid rules have they? Where was that restaurant gathering of the high and mighty? Excuses are par for the course.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Every Mayor, Governor Accused of Breaking COVID Restrictions—and Why


Austin Mayor Steve Adler joins a long list of leading politicians to have allegedly broken their own rules. Here's the rundown.




www.newsweek.com





*Denver Mayor, Michael Hancock*
"Pass the potatoes, not COVID... Avoid travel," Hancock wrote last week as he sat in an airport en route to a family get-together in Mississippi.

*California Gov. Gavin Newsom*
The pictures, first published in the _San Francisco Chronicle_, showed no-one, including California Medical Association representatives, wearing face masks at the Michelin-starred French Laundry where some plates cost $450.

*Washington D.C. Mayor, Muriel Bowser*
Bowser was accused of violating her own travel rules to congratulate President-elect Joe Biden on his election victory last month. The Democrat made a roughly 90-mile trip to Delaware, where Biden was based, in order to celebrate.

*San Jose Mayor, Sam Liccardo*
Texan mayor Sam Liccardo apologised this week for attending a Thanksgiving dinner, which was attended by seven other family members.

In total, five households were present at the dinner—more than the rules allowed. Earlier this month California ordered that social gatherings be limited to a maximum of three.

*Chicago Mayor, Lori Lightfoot*
Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, defended her decision to get a haircut from a professional stylist in April while salons were shutting down under the state's stay-at-home order.

The Democrat had previously said that "getting your roots done is not essential."

*New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo*
He did not break the rules. But, some would argue, he came mightily close.

Ahead of Thanksgiving, the governor was warning his fellow New Yorkers that family gatherings could be dangerous amid growing case counts across the U.S.

Yet his interview with radio station WAMC shortly before the holidays caused a stir.

"My mom is going to come up and two of my girls," he said. That is his 89-year-old mother, Matilda, and two of his daughters, one of whom lives in Chicago.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I have never stopped wearing an mask and certainly do not intend to do so anytime soon. This pandemic is far from even being under control let alone over. I have been in an ICU and ventilated for 21 days (not for Covid) and this is something that I would do anything to avoid again and never wish on my worst enemy.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> But you are infected by fewer virus particles (viral dose) giving your immune system a better shot at it. Also, a mask is supposed to be used with other methods of protection. The government never did properly explain what masks can and can't do.
> 
> FLCCC makes this point about mask wearing. Masks will help reduce spread indoors as long as the four main risk factors that predict transmission within indoor spaces; Density, Duration, Dimensions, and Draft are not violated::
> 
> ...


Poor reasoning-- The factors you list do affect the time involved in the spread of the virus, but not the area under the curve, ie-- you'll still get infected, but a little later than if you don't mask, social distance, etc.

Does it make a real idfference if you swallow 2 tsp of arsenic in rapid succession or wait 20 minutes between swallows?-- You'll still get sick, just 20 minutes later. 

..In one of those refernces I cited, there's an illustration of viral load vs distance from the source-- It take a 40 ft separation for the viral load to dissipate. 

The govt recommendations were all calculated to make it look like they were dong something positive and made in order to avoid criticism by an ignorant press corp.

They are also now claiming uit's time to panic because the delta variant is more infectious than the original alpha..Big deal. The alpha was very infectious (easy to spread) itself. In the words of Seinfeld-- You can't get "wetter." Once you're wet, you're wet."


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> In an indoor gathering of people, I doubt that a HEPA filter in the HVAC system will do a lot of good in preventing the spread of disease. The air exchange isn't nearly fast enough.


That is exactly my point. Even if one is used it's not the same kind that really does much. Not at all like the ones in a hospital or laboratory. These types of areas have negative air pressure. Other indoor areas use positive air pressure.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Something curious at work. One of the subs was losing his voice so he went to the doc. They ran some tests and then more tests. One of the docs says it was because he wore his mask all the time. Told him to quit wearing it. 

True story.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

doc- said:


> Poor reasoning-- The factors you list do affect the time involved in the spread of the virus, but not the area under the curve, ie-- you'll still get infected, but a little later than if you don't mask, social distance, etc.
> 
> Does it make a real idfference if you swallow 2 tsp of arsenic in rapid succession or wait 20 minutes between swallows?-- You'll still get sick, just 20 minutes later.
> 
> ...


I think you are arguing something I didn't say. If a person wears a mask, practices social distancing, is in a well ventilated area, and minimizes time spent in an indoor environment, they can reduce the viral dose they are exposed to compared to someone who didn't do those things.

I do my grocery shopping when the store first opens meaning virus particles had overnight to settle out of the air and minimal new virus particles have been brought in. I try to get in and out in 15 minutes max. I wear a mask. I disinfect my hands when I get in my vehicle.

So is your argument that none of this makes a difference?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> I think you are arguing something I didn't say. If a person wears a mask, practices social distancing, is in a well ventilated area, and minimizes time spent in an indoor environment, they can reduce the viral dose they are exposed to compared to someone who didn't do those things.
> 
> I do my grocery shopping when the store first opens meaning virus particles had overnight to settle out of the air and minimal new virus particles have been brought in. I try to get in and out in 15 minutes max. I wear a mask. I disinfect my hands when I get in my vehicle.
> 
> So is your argument that none of this makes a difference?


I' m saying that if you make one trip a week to shop and that's your only public exposure, then you're right-- you have a minimal (but not zero) chance of getting infected...However, if you have to go to work in public for a 40 hr week &/or frequent bars/restaurants/public gatherings, then your mask & social distancing are essentially useless....Eg- Sgt York got lucky and was able to crawl 50 yds under intense fire without getting hit to position himself where he could capture 250 Germans...If he had to repeat that crawl 50 times, he problably would get killed at least once. Maybe more.

I've mentioned before that the math describing epidemics is a second order differential with a general form aD^2 + bd + x = y. where the a & b terms are constants. Those constants detrmine thedetails of thegraph of the progress of the epidiemic....Things like infectivity of the bug, load of bugs at inocculation, social distancing, population density, time of exposure etc etc go into detrmning the value of a & b....BUT we don't have to know the actual weight of each factor (in fact, we can;t know--too complicated) in the constants...We only have to graph the course of infections over time and then do some "curve fitting" to find the actaul values of the constants...and it seems that manipulations of masks, distancing, etc don't contribute enough to appreciably change the graph.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Sounds about right. I never believed that face masks could stop the spread of a virus, but it can slow the spread. While listening to Fauci encourage the use of face masks I got the impression that the objective was to slow the spread enough to prevent overwhelming the hospital system. I believe that, along with social distancing & staying home more, face masks can slow the spread enough to make a difference.
> 
> But we have bigger problems than the effectiveness of face masks. Some Americans persist in attending potential superspreader events and refusing vaccines, which will undoubtedly prolong the pandemic.



Not taking the vaccine seems to make some more likely to have serious consequences. The information has been provided, the shots are available, let people be responsible for themself’s and the results. 

The vaccines do not prevent covid, does not prevent the spread of covid, so how does the lack of taking a covid shot prolong the pandemic?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Some need to keep in mind that N-95 mask is good. 

Some need to keep in mind that KN-95 mask has not passed the test to meet the requirements that a N-95 mask meets. 

KN-95 mask is pretty risky and that’s why they are not preferred in hospital settings.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> The vaccines do not prevent covid


That's simply not true. I don't know why people keep saying that. The current vaccines are not only very effective in preventing covid, but also effective for the delta variant. While breakthrough cases happen, they are rare.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

doc- said:


> I' m saying that if you make one trip a week to shop and that's your only public exposure, then you're right-- you have a minimal (but not zero) chance of getting infected...However, if you have to go to work in public for a 40 hr week &/or frequent bars/restaurants/public gatherings, then your mask & social distancing are essentially useless....Eg- Sgt York got lucky and was able to crawl 50 yds under intense fire without getting hit to position himself where he could capture 250 Germans...If he had to repeat that crawl 50 times, he problably would get killed at least once. Maybe more.
> 
> I've mentioned before that the math describing epidemics is a second order differential with a general form aD^2 + bd + x = y. where the a & b terms are constants. Those constants detrmine thedetails of thegraph of the progress of the epidiemic....Things like infectivity of the bug, load of bugs at inocculation, social distancing, population density, time of exposure etc etc go into detrmning the value of a & b....BUT we don't have to know the actual weight of each factor (in fact, we can;t know--too complicated) in the constants...We only have to graph the course of infections over time and then do some "curve fitting" to find the actaul values of the constants...and it seems that manipulations of masks, distancing, etc don't contribute enough to appreciably change the graph.


They do for n=1.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> That's simply not true. I don't know why people keep saying that. The current vaccines are not only very effective in preventing covid, but also effective for the delta variant. While breakthrough cases happen, they are rare.


What would be correct is the vaccines don't protect against infection with the Sars-Co2 virus.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

*IF* the CDC was still requiring testing and reporting of those who have been vaccinated like the do the unvaccinated we would have an *accurate* assement of the efficacy of the vaccines. But they don't so accurate information just isn't available. Smells like a cover up, IMO.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Some need to keep in mind that N-95 mask is good.
> 
> Some need to keep in mind that KN-95 mask has not passed the test to meet the requirements that a N-95 mask meets.
> 
> KN-95 mask is pretty risky and that’s why they are not preferred in hospital settings.


Fron the refrence I cited above-- N95 masks are 75% effective in preventing spread of URI/flu--and thse vial particles are conserabley larger than the CoV particle. Would yu use a BCP that only preveted 75% of pegnancies?.


MoonRiver said:


> They do for n=1.


If you mean 1 subject, then the results of 1 exposureis either 0% or 100%. One guy can't get half an infection....If you mean 1 exposure, same thing....Statistics only apply to a group of subjects &/or many tries. never to an individual.....It's just like going to Vegas. How many people quit after having won on the first role of the dice (n = 1)?


MoonRiver said:


> What would be correct is the vaccines don't protect against infection with the Sars-Co2 virus.


What would be correct is to say that the vax greatly lowers the risk of serious deterioraton of health and death, and that it lowers the risk of spreading the virus considerably--viral shedding & break thru infections are notrare, but significantly reduced.

As noted elsewhere, in England the first reports are showing that those infected with delta variant and had been vaxed have a higher death rate than those infected but not vaxed.Verification of that by repeat studies is still to be seen.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

doc- said:


> Fron the refrence I cited above-- N95 masks are 75% effective in preventing spread of URI/flu--and thse vial particles are conserabley larger than the CoV particle. Would yu use a BCP that only preveted 75% of pegnancies?


If that was the best I had, yes.



> If you mean 1 subject, then the results of 1 exposureis either 0% or 100%. One guy can't get half an infection....If you mean 1 exposure, same thing....Statistics only apply to a group of subjects &/or many tries. never to an individual.....It's just like going to Vegas. How many people quit after having won on the first role of the dice (n = 1)?


I mean 1 person doesn't have to conform to the assumptions of the predictors. Some people will practice risky behavior and some will practice safe behaviors, so be one that practices safe behavior and reduce your risk of getting covid-19. We know there are people that become super spreaders and we know that there are superspreader events. Stay away from both.



> What would be correct is to say that the vax greatly lowers the risk of serious deterioraton of health and death, and that it lowers the risk of spreading the virus considerably--viral shedding & break thru infections are notrare, but significantly reduced.


I still believe what I wrote is correct. I don't see how the vaccine could prevent infection. There are studies that say it does, but what they are really saying is the virus is not detectable on testing. That is not the same as not being infected.[/QUOTE]


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> What would be correct is the vaccines don't protect against infection with the Sars-Co2 virus.


Sars-Co2 is the virus that causes COVID-19 disease. The current vaccines prevent Sars-Co2.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Sars-Co2 is the virus that causes COVID-19 disease. The current vaccines prevent Sars-Co2.


Yesterday you said "I don't understand why people keep saying that." 

Now you are saying it does prevent it. Are you lying today or was it yesterday?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> Yesterday you said "I don't understand why people keep saying that."
> 
> Now you are saying it does prevent it. Are you lying today or was it yesterday?


New set of marching orders were delivered.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Yesterday you said "I don't understand why people keep saying that."
> 
> Now you are saying it does prevent it. Are you lying today or was it yesterday?


You need to read my previous post again.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Sars-Co2 is the virus that causes COVID-19 disease. The current vaccines prevent Sars-Co2.


I still can't understand how the vaccines can prevent infection no matter how many articles claim it can. I can understand someone who is vaccinated possibly being able to quickly fight off the infection so that the virus is undetectable on a test, but I don't see how the vaccine can stop the virus from getting into nasal cells and replicating.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I still can't understand how the vaccines can prevent infection no matter how many articles claim it can. I can understand someone who is vaccinated possibly being able to quickly fight off the infection so that the virus is undetectable on a test, but I don't see how the vaccine can stop the virus from getting into nasal cells and replicating.


Oh, I think you understand how antibodies attack viruses. You're just pretending to not understand. I'm not going to play that game with you.

What I would like to see is a scientifically derived estimate on how many lives have been saved by the vaccines, and how many might die from taking the vaccines. That would provide clear guidance for the decision to take one of the covid vaccines. As it stands now people who are vaccine hesitant are saying that they don't know so they won't take it. That's pretty weak ground to stand on.

But nobody denies that the vaccines have saved perhaps hundreds of thousands of American lives (millions worldwide). It's inconceivable that vaccines might someday kill in numbers like that.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Oh, I think you understand how antibodies attack viruses. You're just pretending to not understand. I'm not going to play that game with you.
> 
> What I would like to see is a scientifically derived estimate on how many lives have been saved by the vaccines, and how many might die from taking the vaccines. That would provide clear guidance for the decision to take one of the covid vaccines. As it stands now people who are vaccine hesitant are saying that they don't know so they won't take it. That's pretty weak ground to stand on.
> 
> But nobody denies that the vaccines have saved perhaps hundreds of thousands of American lives (millions worldwide). It's inconceivable that vaccines might someday kill in numbers like that.


In other words, the vaccines don't stop a person from becoming infected.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> What I would like to see is a scientifically derived estimate on how many lives have been saved by the vaccines, and how many might die from taking the vaccines. That would provide clear guidance for the decision to take one of the covid vaccines. As it stands now people who are vaccine hesitant are saying that they don't know so they won't take it. That's pretty weak ground to stand on.


I'd like to see accurate scientific numbers on a lot of covid issues, including collateral damage. I don't believe that increased suicides and overdoses should be counted as covid deaths. 

I've lost friends to covid but I've lost a lot more friends to delayed diagnostics and medical treatment that was blamed on the pandemic. 

I'd also like to see accurate scientific numbers for the seniors who died from isolation. I believe the correct medical term is Failure to Thrive Due to Isolation. 

What we don't need are more manufactured numbers using theoretical data.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> If that was the best I had, yes.
> 
> 
> I mean 1 person doesn't have to conform to the assumptions of the predictors. Some people will practice risky behavior and some will practice safe behaviors, so be one that practices safe behavior and reduce your risk of getting covid-19. We know there are people that become super spreaders and we know that there are superspreader events. Stay away from both.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I'm not a good teacher, I guess. You're not catching on.

BTW- at least get the difinitions right-- infection = illness.... colonization = bug present but not causing any problems


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I'm not a good teacher, I guess. You're not catching on.

BTW- at least get the difinitions right-- infection = illness.... colonization = bug present but not causing any problems
[/QUOTE]
Do the vaccines provide any protection before the virus gets into the blood?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> In other words, the vaccines don't stop a person from becoming infected.


I don't see how you got that from my post. In fact the current vaccines are very good at preventing covid infection, even infection from the delta variant.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Infection: The *invasion and multiplication of microorganisms* such as bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are not normally present within the body. An infection may cause no symptoms and be subclinical, or it may cause symptoms and be clinically apparent. MedicineNet

@Doc - So are you saying the virus does not get into nasal cells and start to multiply?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

wr said:


> I've lost friends to covid but I've lost a lot more friends to delayed diagnostics and medical treatment that was blamed on the pandemic.


You must hang with a pretty sickly crowd...In round numbers, there's 300M people in the country and all causes of death only result in 3M deaths each year, so, on average, we each only know one person a year of every 100 we know who dies....Of course, maybe you're extremely popular ans know many hundreds of people.

With 600,000 CoV deaths in the past 1.5 yrs, we each average knowing of 1 CoV death in every 500 people we know.

Most of us only know <200 people Blog Therapy, Therapy, Therapy Blog, Blogging Therapy, Therapy,.. (goodtherapy.org) (Knowing OF someone doesn't count.)


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Infection: The *invasion and multiplication of microorganisms* such as bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are not normally present within the body. An infection may cause no symptoms and be subclinical, or it may cause symptoms and be clinically apparent. MedicineNet
> 
> @Doc - So are you saying the virus does not get into nasal cells and start to multiply?


That definition is definitely wrong, They don't differetiate between infection and colonization. Infection should be defined as causing pathology. Colonization does not involve pathology....

Right now, we can aspirate a deep repiratory mucus sample from you and I guarantee that we can culture S.pneumonia from your sample. There's a 50:50 chance that the mechanism of your ultimate demise will be due to pneumococcal pneumonia, activated as your general medical condition deteriorates so you can't keep thise bugs, always present, in check.

From what I understand, some people (a minor fraction) of those vaxed can still harbor and spread the virus without themselves being sick....Compare this to Typhoid Mary who spread typhoid to many contacts without her being sick herself, or to those (usually the ones treated with antibiotics) who can harbor and spread Salmonella for years after having been infected. It's a common thing in biology.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

doc- said:


> That definition is definitely wrong, They don't differetiate between infection and colonization. Infection should be defined as causing pathology. Colonization does not involve pathology....
> 
> Right now, we can aspirate a deep repiratory mucus sample from you and I guarantee that we can culture S.pneumonia from your sample. There's a 50:50 chance that the mechanism of your ultimate demise will be due to pneumococcal pneumonia, activated as your general medical condition deteriorates so you can't keep thise bugs, always present, in check.
> 
> From what I understand, some people (a minor fraction) of those vaxed can still harbor and spread the virus without themselves being sick....Compare this to Typhoid Mary who spread typhoid to many contacts without her being sick herself, or to those (usually the ones treated with antibiotics) who can harbor and spread Salmonella for years after having been infected. It's a common thing in biology.


I'm just trying to understand. If it looks like I am arguing, I am trying to find out what it is I have wrong. Below you will see that infection is used even by *WHO*. The 1st article points out that the *vaccine might not be able to stop "Nasal SARS-Cov2 Infection," *which is the argument I am making*. *

*COVID-19 Vaccines May Not Prevent Nasal SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Asymptomatic Transmission *​​








COVID-19 Vaccines May Not Prevent Nasal SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Asymptomatic Transmission - PubMed


Current COVID-19 vaccine candidates are administered by injection and designed to produce an IgG response, preventing viremia and the COVID-19 syndrome. However, systemic respiratory vaccines generally provide limited protection against viral replication and shedding within the airway, as this...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




​​*This is how COVID-19 spreads through the body | Connect the Dots*​​The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill conducted the research, and what they found was COVID-19 likes the nose.​The findings suggest the *virus tends to first infect* the nasal cavity where it finds *cells it likes for replicating*. Then, in some cases, it travels further into the respiratory track where it does not replicate quite so easily but can still infect the lungs, leading to potentially fatal pneumonia.​​WHO​​Respiratory droplet transmission can occur when a person is in close contact (within 1 metre) with an infected person who has respiratory symptoms (e.g. coughing or sneezing) or who is talking or singing; in these circumstances, respiratory droplets that include virus can reach the mouth, nose or eyes of a susceptible person and can result in *infection*.​
If someone gets Covid-19, their immune system will create IgM and IgG. If someone is vaccinated, their immune system will create IgG only. Doesn't this imply that the Sars-Cov2 virus will start replicating in the nasal cells before vaccine activated protection begins, as IgM is the first response antibody?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

doc- said:


> You must hang with a pretty sickly crowd...In round numbers, there's 300M people in the country and all causes of death only result in 3M deaths each year, so, on average, we each only know one person a year of every 100 we know who dies....Of course, maybe you're extremely popular ans know many hundreds of people.
> 
> With 600,000 CoV deaths in the past 1.5 yrs, we each average knowing of 1 CoV death in every 500 people we know.
> 
> Most of us only know <200 people Blog Therapy, Therapy, Therapy Blog, Blogging Therapy, Therapy,.. (goodtherapy.org) (Knowing OF someone doesn't count.)


I actually do know a lot of people

I wouldn't classify them as extremely unhealthy but I would suggest that postponing surgeries at the onset of the pandemic and each subsequent lockdown, didn't work well for them and has generated quite a backlog. 

Ironically, of the three people I know who died of covid, two were over 90 and lived in a locked down extended care facility.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm just trying to understand. If it looks like I am arguing, I am trying to find out what it is I have wrong. Below you will see that infection is used even by *WHO*. The 1st article points out that the *vaccine might not be able to stop "Nasal SARS-Cov2 Infection," *which is the argument I am making*. *
> 
> *COVID-19 Vaccines May Not Prevent Nasal SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Asymptomatic Transmission *​​
> 
> ...


Just because someone has achieved some position of authority doesn't mean they know what they're talking about....I submit that the WHO -- a Chnese propaganda unit-- doesn't know what it's talking about. They quite simply got the defintion of infection wrong.

I'm, certified by theAm Board of Int Med as an "expert"-- yet I admit that I don't know everything about Int Med. .

Maybe the best example I can think of is all the cardiac surgeons (almost all of them) who refer to coronary bypass surgery as "open heart surgery."..It's not. They don;t open the heart..and these guys do five of them every day. Sloppy use of language. This is why science requires operational definitions for accuracy.

While the CoV vax apparently doesn't stimulate IgA secretion in the upper airways, once exposed to CoV, with or without vax, that IgA is stimulated, so most people won;t be able to continue spreading the bug after exposure...Some will-- just like Salmonella, thyphiod or MRSA "carriers." (BTW- IgM is a "primitive" Ab and doesn't enter in to produce long term immunity, so who cares if the vax stimulates it or not?)

The vax greatly dimisnishes the number of carriers....but more importantly, it *greatly* diminishes the risk of serious infection and death. Cf- pertussis vax-- plenty of kids still get sick with it, but almost nobody dies anymore of this once deadly disease.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Oh, I think you understand how antibodies attack viruses. You're just pretending to not understand. I'm not going to play that game with you.
> 
> What I would like to see is a scientifically derived estimate on how many lives have been saved by the vaccines, and how many might die from taking the vaccines. That would provide clear guidance for the decision to take one of the covid vaccines. As it stands now people who are vaccine hesitant are saying that they don't know so they won't take it. That's pretty weak ground to stand on.
> 
> But nobody denies that the vaccines have saved perhaps hundreds of thousands of American lives (millions worldwide). It's inconceivable that vaccines might someday kill in numbers like that.


We do not even have a reliable accurate test yet. Perhaps its coming this December. At least that seems to be what the CDC current posting indicate.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> We do not even have a reliable accurate test yet.


Van you elaborate on that? The federal government and the medical community think it's accurate enough to rely on.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Since 2007 trust among the American public in the Federal Government has never reached 30%.
There is no longer "the" medical community. There are only portions of the medical community.
What else have you got?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Van you elaborate on that? The federal government and the medical community think it's accurate enough to rely on.


This article says the PCR test gives both false positive and false negative results. The instant FLT test has about a 58% accuracy.










Different paths to the same destination: screening for Covid-19


The three main types of Covid-19 test - PCR, LFT and antibody - all work in different ways to diagnose infection or assess immunity




www.medicaldevice-network.com





Ohio Gov Mike DeWine tested positive and negative in the same 24 hour time frame.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

All along "they" have said the test results are more inaccurate for asymptomatic people. The tests are most accurate in people carrying a high viral load.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Since 2007 trust among the American public in the Federal Government has never reached 30%.
> There is no longer "the" medical community. There are only portions of the medical community.
> What else have you got?


An interesting quirk of our political landscape is conservative republicans challenging scientists and medical professionals. They don't allege that they know more than those scientists. Instead they accuse the scientific and medical communities as having been corrupted by liberal democrats, and since they have been corrupted they are not to be believed. They laugh at scientists for believing scientific conclusions, since those conclusions are obviously the result of pressure from liberal democrats.

So when scientific and medical opinions are discredited as nonsense from liberal elites, what to conservative republicans replace it with? Anything they want it to be, of course.

How do they explain the tragic infection rates and deaths? Simple, it's all fake news. Nothing is to be believed except information that supports their political cause.

It is a very strange time that we are living right now.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> An interesting quirk of our political landscape is conservative republicans challenging scientists and medical professionals. They don't allege that they know more than those scientists. Instead they accuse the scientific and medical communities as having been corrupted by liberal democrats, and since they have been corrupted they are not to be believed. They laugh at scientists for believing scientific conclusions, since those conclusions are obviously the result of pressure from liberal democrats.
> 
> So when scientific and medical opinions are discredited as nonsense from liberal elites, what to conservative republicans replace it with? Anything they want it to be, of course.
> 
> ...


Would you please review the rules regarding political discussion in GC.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It may be political but Nevada brings up a valid point. In the US we have 2 parties fighting for supremacy with little regard for the common welfare of the citizens they are paid to serve. They refuse to work together or see true scientifically proven information provided by the opposing side. The parties are playing a game and the citizens are the game board.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> Would you please review the rules regarding political discussion in GC.


I'll be more careful in the future.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I'll be more careful in the future.


The interesting quirk you mention is interesting, because 70% of those who distrust such an entity do not belong to one group.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The public distrust doesn't prevent those in charge from making decisions "for your own good" that affect the 70%.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> An interesting quirk of our political landscape is conservative republicans challenging scientists and medical professionals. They don't allege that they know more than those scientists. Instead they accuse the scientific and medical communities as having been corrupted by liberal democrats, and since they have been corrupted they are not to be believed. They laugh at scientists for believing scientific conclusions, since those conclusions are obviously the result of pressure from liberal democrats.
> 
> So when scientific and medical opinions are discredited as nonsense from liberal elites, what to conservative republicans replace it with? Anything they want it to be, of course.
> 
> ...


A substantial number of scientists and doctors disagree with the government and the so-called experts. I listened to one last night who owns a cardiac center but converted it and 2 others into emergency care centers so he could treat Covid-19 patients and try to keep them out of emergency rooms. When he tells me what works, I believe him. He is a doctor who honors the Hippocratic Oath as well as the Declaration of Helsinki which says:

* Unproven Interventions in Clinical Practice *​​_*When a proven intervention does not exist, a physician may use an unproven intervention after appropriate considerations that incorporate professional judgment, expert advice and committee oversight, and informed consent. The research must be designed to evaluate its safety and efficacy with findings made publicly available.*_​​He and other doctors like him are using Ivermectin, HCQ, and other repurposed drugs as the Declaration of Helsinki calls for, and for that is labeled a kook, a purveyor of misinformation, and worse. In the middle of a pandemic, these doctors discovered treatments that work, evaluated their safety and efficacy, and published their results. What happened? It was rejected because it wasn't a clinical trial bought and paid for by the drug companies. 

I am now of the belief these people who are preventing treatment with these repurposed drugs need to be brought up on charges and hopefully imprisoned.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> The public distrust doesn't prevent those in charge from making decisions "for your own good" that affect the 70%.


But keep in mind that 70% distruse of scientists and medical professionals doesn't mean they're wrong.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> What happened? It was rejected because it wasn't a clinical trial bought and paid for by the drug companies.


Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> But keep in mind that 70% distruse of scientists and medical professionals doesn't mean they're wrong.



It doesn't mean they are right either. Some just need more information, some don't believe a sign that says "wet paint".

Does it mean the 30% are just blind followers? No, but some of them are.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


If you are in the early stages of a pandemic and 100 doctors say I have been using Ivermectin to treat Covid-19 patients and 90% got better and got better quickly, what should the government do?

A) Tell everyone Ivermectin isn't approved to treat Covid-19 and there are no clinical trials to support its use

Or

B) Tell doctors that there are reports that Ivermectin might be effective as a treatment for Covid-19 and it has a long history of being safe for humans in the dose recommended and that multiple clinical trials are being started.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> But keep in mind that 70% distruse of scientists and medical professionals doesn't mean they're wrong.


I see nothing wrong with treating anything with a bit of skepticism and I'm old enough to know that doctors and scientists don't always get it right. 

They aren't always wrong but I'm old enough to remember a few times where they had some epic fails and to suggest we believe otherwise fosters more distrust.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I see nothing wrong with treating anything with a bit of skepticism


The problem is that people are dying on a wholesale basis without a vaccine.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that people are dying on a wholesale basis without a vaccine.


And people are surviving with Ivermectin. 

Yet, you are a skeptic of that.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that people are dying on a wholesale basis without a vaccine.


You're suggesting that adults don't ask questions and do what they're told. I will repeat again that it is that exact mentality that is fostering much of the lack of trust.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

People are dying on a wholesale basis? Really?

Is that true?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

On a wholesale basis.
Yep that's what he said.
A wholesale basis.
And wholesale is usually tax free so that's bad news for the government.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> People are dying on a wholesale basis? Really?
> 
> Is that true?


500 people per day. That's a 9/11 death toll each week. That's not a lot until it's one of your loved ones.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

But there are more than that coming across the border so it is a net plus. I may have figured this out. Kill as many over 50 as you can and replace them with young workers. Now, who might benefit from such an evil plan?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Navada, I haven’t seen that statistic. Curious where you found it. 😟


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Navada, I haven’t seen that statistic. Curious where you found it. 😟


That was from a long-term moving average. Recently it's been a lot higher.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That was from a long-term moving average. Recently it's been a lot higher.


Please share your link.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Instead they accuse the scientific and medical communities as having been corrupted by liberal democrats, and since they have been corrupted they are not to be believed. They laugh at scientists for believing scientific conclusions, since those conclusions are obviously the result of pressure from liberal democrats.


I am a scientist and neither conservative nor liberal, but libertarian...and I can assure you that the term "govt scientist" is an oxymoron-- they are politicians/bureaucrats whose Prime Directive is to use psuedo-scientific speech to assure their own jobs and power for their party....

The only way to do good science is to do so from a position of skepticism-- even your own science.

Everything from GW to cholesterol to obesity to CoV (I could go on) has govt POVs exactly opposite to what the science supports.

The Dem directives on CoV are a rather obvious power grab, while the directives under Trump were calculated to avoid criticism by the press (impossible for TRump-- no matter what position he took on any subject, the press called him wrong)....Aong those lines, one could paint a plausable picture that the whole MidEast War under Bush II was started so the press couldn't call him negligient had Hussein turn out to really have had WoMD....Everythig done by politicians is done to optimize the optics & to ensure continued power.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that people are dying on a wholesale basis without a vaccine.


Please get the science right-- The death rate of CoV on a per case basis was initially 1.9%...Over the last several months it has come down to 0.1% ...That's coinicidental to availability of vax, improved treatment AND (most importantly) a mollified virus strain (delta)....The death RATE would have come down even without the vax.

I suppose we can argue about what you define as a "wholesale basis" but 0.1% is the same rate as influenza-- and only 15% of Americnas get that vax.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Please share your link.


August 5 death toll was 574.












https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> August 5 death toll was 574.
> 
> View attachment 98878
> 
> ...


On the same day the death toll from cancer was over 1600. Would that also fit the criteria for wholesale deaths?

I fully comprehend the severity of the virus but remain convinced that preying on people by instilling fear has a negative impact on mental health.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I fully comprehend the severity of the virus but remain convinced that preying on people by instilling fear has a negative impact on mental health.


For healthy middle-aged people the odds are in your favor for surviving a covid infection, or even not catching the virus at all. I admit that. But there are a lot of people who are at risk, even children. We've got to try to end this thing.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

@Nevada , care to comment on wr's first statement re: the number of cancer deaths on Aug 5? Specifically, I'm curious about your take on that statistic as it relates to the figure you posted for Covid deaths on the same day. 

I understand selectively responding to lengthy posts and those that veer from a topic but that one was a direct response to your post so it seems odd that you would just blatantly ignore it.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

sharkerbaby said:


> @Nevada , care to comment on wr's first statement re: the number of cancer deaths on Aug 5? Specifically, I'm curious about your take on that statistic as it relates to the figure you posted for Covid deaths on the same day.
> 
> I understand selectively responding to lengthy posts and those that veer from a topic but that one was a direct response to your post so it seems odd that you would just blatantly ignore it.


Not really odd at all. If it doesn't fit the narrative you won't get an answer from him. 

Looking at other facts and wondering if you might be wrong is a thing if the past for many people anymore.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

NPC's behave as NPC's.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> For healthy middle-aged people the odds are in your favor for surviving a covid infection, or even not catching the virus at all. I admit that. But there are a lot of people who are at risk, even children. We've got to try to end this thing.


You won’t end it with ramped up rhetoric and if you want to see higher vaccination rates, start listening instead of telling. 

Cancer has been around a lot longer than covid, killed way more people than covid and I’ve yet to hear you ever express any concern. Why the lack of empathy for so many?


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Van you elaborate on that? The federal government and the medical community think it's accurate enough to rely on.


The cdc has publicly announced that starting end of December the existing covid test is to be replaced with a new test, that can tell the difference between covid and ……….. the flue. 

Think about that.






__





CDC's Laboratory Outreach Communication System (LOCS) | CDC







www.cdc.gov


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> A substantial number of scientists and doctors disagree with the government and the so-called experts. I listened to one last night who owns a cardiac center but converted it and 2 others into emergency care centers so he could treat Covid-19 patients and try to keep them out of emergency rooms. When he tells me what works, I believe him. He is a doctor who honors the Hippocratic Oath as well as the Declaration of Helsinki which says:
> 
> * Unproven Interventions in Clinical Practice *​​_*When a proven intervention does not exist, a physician may use an unproven intervention after appropriate considerations that incorporate professional judgment, expert advice and committee oversight, and informed consent. The research must be designed to evaluate its safety and efficacy with findings made publicly available.*_​​He and other doctors like him are using Ivermectin, HCQ, and other repurposed drugs as the Declaration of Helsinki calls for, and for that is labeled a kook, a purveyor of misinformation, and worse. In the middle of a pandemic, these doctors discovered treatments that work, evaluated their safety and efficacy, and published their results. What happened? It was rejected because it wasn't a clinical trial bought and paid for by the drug companies.
> 
> I am now of the belief these people who are preventing treatment with these repurposed drugs need to be brought up on charges and hopefully imprisoned.


More drugs might be repurposed it seems. Cholesterol drugs showing high promise. 









High cholesterol drug can reduce COVID-19-infected cells by 70%


Fenofibrate, a drug used to treat high cholesterol, may be able to treat COVID-19, according to a study from researchers at the University of Birmingham and Keele University.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that people are dying on a wholesale basis without a vaccine.


Wholesale is a bit of a exaggeration for me.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> 500 people per day. That's a 9/11 death toll each week. That's not a lot until it's one of your loved ones.


My loved one that made their choices and lived and died by it. No problem. 

500 per day ? Pfft…….


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> For healthy middle-aged people the odds are in your favor for surviving a covid infection, or even not catching the virus at all. I admit that. But there are a lot of people who are at risk, even children. We've got to try to end this thing.


It’s already been done. Vaccine is available, for free. Done deal. Should be end of the subject.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Covid is contagious. Cancer is not. Covid deaths can easily be reduced by vaccination.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Nevada said:


> August 5 death toll was 574.


Keep things in perspective. In the US, 10,000 people die on an average day....CoV deaths numbered 1354 one yr ago; 3900 on 12/17/20 and averaged 3500/d from mid Dec to mid Jan....and half of CoV deaths are not "excess deaths" but people who were about to die anyway. National Data: Deaths | The COVID Tracking Project 



Nevada said:


> For healthy middle-aged people the odds are in your favor for surviving a covid infection, or even not catching the virus at all. I admit that. But there are a lot of people who are at risk, even children. We've got to try to end this thing.


Why not just vax the vulnerable? ...You still need to get a Yellow Fever vax if you're traveling to certain parts of the world---I take it you think ALL people in the world should be vaxed for that too?

BTW- out of 600,000 US CoV deaths, 500 were in the 0-18 y/o demograhic over the past 18 months... 1000 in that group die from drowning each yr....More college kids died of alcolhol poisoning last yr than from CoV.



Redlands Okie said:


> My loved one that made their choices and lived and died by it. No problem.
> 
> 500 per day ? Pfft…….


Our hearts bleed for you....but your comment represents juvenile thinking....In statistics, probabliities are represented by an area under the bell shaped curve-- a two dimensional entity...An individual is represented by a single point-- a zero dimensional object, ie- has no meanng....

.Policy (whether oublic or personal) should be decided based on statistics. To do otherwise would lead to things like getting a colonscopy every day of the year, never riding in an automobile, living in the BubbleBoy's space, etc -- just in case.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that people are dying on a wholesale basis without a vaccine.


Were you saying the same thing in May?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Vaccination for Covid is not just about preventing deaths. It is a about preventing serious illness and hospitalization.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is about a lot more than that too.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

.


painterswife said:


> Vaccination for Covid is not just about preventing deaths. It is a about preventing serious illness and hospitalization.


It's also about ending the pandemic sooner so the economy can fully reopen.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I can say with some certainty that it isn't about the economy.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> It’s already been done. Vaccine is available, for free. Done deal. Should be end of the subject.


It would have been the end of the subject if more people got the vaccine. The pandemic would have been over by now, at least here in the US.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> It's also about ending the pandemic sooner so the economy can fully reopen.


If the government was serious about ending the pandemic, why didn't they do what Britain did and not vaccinate children, but instead send that vaccine to countries that are in crisis? This isn't a US problem but a world problem.

We could get to 80% vaccinated and there would still be variants the mRNA vaccines aren't very effective at protecting us from. And with the mRNA losing its effectiveness over time, you have to keep giving boosters, probably about every 6 months, and keep the vaccinated rate at 70%. It's not going to happen.

ETA: It's like the government paying to build a bridge that has a life span of 50 years if it is maintained properly. It's never going to happen. Until there is a crisis, maintenance is unlikely to happen and certainly, it won't happen as frequently as the maintenance spec says it should. The government doesn't have the will to make Covid-19 go away. Once the number of cases and deaths come down to the point the government can't use Covid-19 as a political tool, they will move on to something else.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> If the government was serious about ending the pandemic, why didn't they do what Britain did and not vaccinate children, but instead send that vaccine to countries that are in crisis? This isn't a US problem but a world problem.


While it's true that the pandemic is a global problem, we cam effectively end the pandemic for the US. It's happened before. While smallpox was still a problem in third-world countries, it was virtually eradicated here in the US.

The reason we can be isolated from some diseases is obvious. We have plenty of vaccine for every US citizen, but some third-world countries have low vaccination rates because it's simply not available. We have the ability to knock-out covid in the US, but it rages on because many in the US are unwilling. I can't help but wonder how history will treat this pandemic of the unvaccinated.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

It's just posturing until those crossing our southern border are stopped. Last count I heard since the border invitation went out is at a million people. Most not tested and those that were and tested positive were released.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder how history will treat this pandemic of the unvaccinated.


"The pandemic of the unvaccinated"?
Dude.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

no really said:


> It's just posturing until those crossing our southern border are stopped. Last count I heard since the border invitation went out is at a million people. Most not tested and those that were and tested positive were released.


It is absurd.
I have family in Tuscon and they are no right wingers.
It is as if the gates to DisneyWorld opened up.
No fear, no caution, just illegals strolling along in public.
But to Reverend Casino and the Church of the Elite, it is just "nothing to see here".


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> It is absurd.
> I have family in Tuscon and they are no right wingers.
> It is as if the gates to DisneyWorld opened up.
> No fear, no caution, just illegals strolling along in public.
> But to Reverend Casino and the Church of the Elite, it is just "nothing to see here".


I used to live in Pima County, but a lot closer to the border than Tucson.

I have to wonder -- how he can tell the illegals from the US citizens?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I used to live in Pima County, but a lot closer to the border than Tucson.
> 
> I have to wonder -- how he can tell the illegals from the US citizens?


LOL, a person living on the border any real length of time can tell.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> While it's true that the pandemic is a global problem, we cam effectively end the pandemic for the US. It's happened before. While smallpox was still a problem in third-world countries, it was virtually eradicated here in the US.
> 
> The reason we can be isolated from some diseases is obvious. We have plenty of vaccine for every US citizen, but some third-world countries have low vaccination rates because it's simply not available. We have the ability to knock-out covid in the US, but it rages on because many in the US are unwilling. I can't help but wonder how history will treat this pandemic of the unvaccinated.


The world of 2020's is not the same as the world of the 1970's. People are more mobile today than 50 years ago.

How about the flu? Or measles?

Measles as an endemic disease was eliminated from the United States in 2000, but *continues to be reintroduced by international travelers*.[174] In 2019 there were at least 1,241 cases of measles in the United States distributed across 31 states, with over three quarters in New York.[175] wikipedia


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Nevada said:


> It would have been the end of the subject if more people got the vaccine. The pandemic would have been over by now, at least here in the US.


More to the point-- it would have been over if we hadn't futiley tried to stop it before we had a vax..There was no way to tell in advance that there would actually be one..

In regards the value of vaccines-- keep in mind that the first vax for small pox was given in 1796, and by 1830, despite rather incomplete use of it, small pox was almost gone in the US. It made a resurgence in the 1860s (remember the math?) and wasn't used widely here untill after the turn of the 20th century-- and then it still took 50 yrs for the last case to appear here (1949)....By 1960, the UN decided it had had enough and spent $millions in an all out effort to eradicate it with a wiold-wide vax program.-- They did eradicate it-- but it took almost 30 yrs.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Vaccination for Covid is not just about preventing deaths. It is a about preventing serious illness and hospitalization.


So they say but my point remains. You won’t sway the undecided with hard sell, insults and condescending comments.

It’s better to actually listen and respond to actual concerns than to make assumptions.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I used to live in Pima County, but a lot closer to the border than Tucson.
> 
> I have to wonder -- how he can tell the illegals from the US citizens?


That is a good question. 
I won't give you the easy answer from when I have been out there, but the most current and from an original flower child hippie.
I usually do a Sunday call with her and say hi to her husband. I'll ask and let you know.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> So they say but my point remains. You won’t sway the undecided with hard sell, insults and condescending comments.
> 
> It’s better to actually listen and respond to actual concerns than to make assumptions.


Comparing cancer deaths with a communicable virus death adds nothing to the conversation but misdirection.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> It would have been the end of the subject if more people got the vaccine. The pandemic would have been over by now, at least here in the US.




People are informed, vaccine is available, its free, easy to access. The covid subject is taken care of. 

Time for people to find more productive use of their time, energy, money. If you wish to worry about a medical issue, then how about the common cold or flue. It would seem we are right on the edge of solving those problems. Or perhaps something serious, like cancer. Lets put the money and research and energy into something more useful like we have into covid. 

Or your could just do some homestead stuff and let us see some post about that.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Comparing cancer deaths with a communicable virus death adds nothing to the conversation .


As does a closed mind and a willingness to disagree.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> I used to live in Pima County, but a lot closer to the border than Tucson.
> 
> I have to wonder -- how he can tell the illegals from the US citizens?


That statement right there is pretty good indication of how freaking bad the government and some people have let the situation get. The illegals are now using social media to call for a ride…….incredible.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> As does a closed mind and a willingness to disagree.


 Ahh an attempt at a put down, just because I disagree on somethings.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> The world of 2020's is not the same as the world of the 1970's. People are more mobile today than 50 years ago.
> 
> How about the flu? Or measles?
> 
> Measles as an endemic disease was eliminated from the United States in 2000, but *continues to be reintroduced by international travelers*.[174] In 2019 there were at least 1,241 cases of measles in the United States distributed across 31 states, with over three quarters in New York.[175] wikipedia


Please do not give him such numbers and information. We do not need to realize we also have a measles pandemic……………..


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Ahh an attempt at a put down, just because I disagree on somethings.


You are still being sensitive.
Disagreeing because you dislike the poster or a group of individuals isn't a put down. Thought you should know.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> That statement right there is pretty good indication of how freaking bad the government and some people have let the situation get. The illegals are now using social media to call for a ride…….incredible.


I hope they aren't under contract with their old phone providers down south. That would be a booger of a buyout before getting service here.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

doc- said:


> More to the point-- it would have been over if we hadn't futiley tried to stop it before we had a vax..There was no way to tell in advance that there would actually be one..


Before the vaccines became available, face mask, social distancing , and business closure guidelines could not have stopped the pandemic. The objective was to slow the spread enough to prevent the hospital system from becoming overwhelmed.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that *people are dying on a wholesale basis* without a vaccine.





Nevada said:


> *500 people per day*. That's a 9/11 death toll each week. That's not a lot until it's one of your loved ones.





wr said:


> *On the same day the death toll from cancer was over 1600*. Would that also fit the criteria for wholesale deaths?
> 
> I fully comprehend the severity of the virus but remain convinced that preying on people by instilling fear has a negative impact on mental health.





painterswife said:


> *Comparing cancer deaths with a communicable virus death* adds nothing to the conversation but misdirection.


Ummm, the comparison was for quantification purposes only and used to clarify the characterization of said number of deaths as "people dying on a wholesale basis." Pivoting and trying to pretend the comparison being made was of the respective diseases themselves in quite disingenuous.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Before the vaccines became available, face mask, social distancing , and business closure guidelines could not have stopped the pandemic. The objective was to slow the spread enough to prevent the hospital system from becoming overwhelmed.


They could have protected the elderly especially those in nursing homes, etc and the hospitals probably wouldn't have been overwhelmed.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> interesting quirk of our political landscape is conservative republicans challenging scientists and medical professionals


It is not a quirk. Some learn to distrust those that lie for purpose and do it often.

It ain't a bug, it is a feature


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Anti-Vaxxers Feed Off Democrats' Skepticism of COVID Vaccine


Concerns about vaccines have increased significantly in recent months, with the public scrutiny of the development process potentially behind the rise.




www.newsweek.com













Liz Peek: Rattled Democrats attack Trump's vaccine optimism


Democrats are panicked that a coronavirus vaccine will emerge right in time for the election.




www.foxnews.com







Kamala Harris Says She Wouldn't Trust a Vaccine Trump Recommended


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I used to live in Pima County, but a lot closer to the border than Tucson.
> 
> I have to wonder -- how he can tell the illegals from the US citizens?


The new ones?
Large groups carrying water, walmart bags, backpacks, dirty, traveling along the roadways. 

I find it interesting that you continue to group conservatives, Trumpers, libertarians and Republicans all together, even after being warned about turning the thread political, yet you seemingly have cloudy eyes and an ear for the bigotry whistle when it comes to the ability to discern lying government hacks and illegal aliens.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Comparing cancer deaths with a communicable virus death adds nothing to the conversation but misdirection.


Kinda like comparing a virus to 9-11?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> They could have protected the elderly especially those in nursing homes, etc and the hospitals probably wouldn't have been overwhelmed.


So far our hospital system hasn't been overwhelmed, but that may change soon. Florida hospitals are stretched to the limit as we speak.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> It is not a quirk. Some learn to distrust those that lie for purpose and do it often.


We all need to have trust to survive. It's imperative that we trust our food & water source. Without it we die. Yet food & water are regulated by government, applying the latest scientific methods, and carried out by big business. So to survive you have to trust the government, science, and big business just to stay alive..

To be productive we also need to trust that tall buildings, elevators, and bridges were all build properly. But we weren't there to oversee construction, So again, we have to trust government inspectors, science, and big business.

Then we have to trust issues for which there is no regulation. As we drive down a highway, what reason do we have to believe that a car traveling in the opposite direction won't swerve into our path? That might happen due to a mechanical problem, driver error, or maybe on purpose because the other driver is just plain crazy. Yet you have enough trust to drive down a highway.

You maintain all that trust, but don't trust that medical professionals are acting in our best interest?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't have to trust anyone or anything.
I choose to.
Nevada, this is Homesteading Today, meaning many of the people here are self sufficient. If they rely on an outside service it is because they choose to.
Choose being the focus word.
The government has shown they fail with food and they fail with water and now they are failing even with misinformation.
If you believe the government's health officials are acting in your best interest then good for you.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> If you believe the government's health officials are acting in your best interest then good for you.


What possible motive might they have to act otherwise?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I honestly respect your decision to trust the government and their horns.
I made you aware of my lifestyle choices.
Are either of those statements an issue for you?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> We all need to have trust to survive.


As a society, an American society, we aren't


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

It's all about messaging.
This makes me want to mask up!


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> We all need to have trust to survive. It's imperative that we trust our food & water source. Without it we die. Yet food & water are regulated by government, applying the latest scientific methods, and carried out by big business. So to survive you have to trust the government, science, and big business just to stay alive..


And yet they lie about our food supply on a regular basis. In some cases it's just misdirection. Many govt. inspectors have been found to have direct links to the industry that they are supposed to be over seeing. And yes, people die as a result...regularly.




Nevada said:


> You maintain all that trust, but don't trust that medical professionals are acting in our best interest?


Some, like Fauci, have been caught lying. 
Fool me once....


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Trust the government.

Flint River

Erin Brockovich


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Erin Brockovich


is pro-vaccine and fully vaccinated.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ah. You missed the connection. I will explain.

A previous post referenced trusting the government. How did that work out in Flint?

How did trusting the government (to control the offenders) work out in Barstow?

All good now?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Ah. You missed the connection. I will explain.
> 
> A previous post referenced trusting the government. How did that work out in Flint?
> 
> ...


And you missed the connection. 
Erin Brockovitch who is Nobody’s fool…(especially the government or corporations) got the vaccine.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

A *straw man* (sometimes written as *strawman*) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

This seems an odd hill for a last stand, given the evidence and the obvious duration of this conflict. Whatever...


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> A *straw man* (sometimes written as *strawman*) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".


Oh wow. 
is this ex Debate Coach Tourettes Syndrome?
Random logical fallacy definitions just pop out of nowhere!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> We all need to have trust to survive. It's imperative that we trust our food & water source. Without it we die. Yet food & water are regulated by government, applying the latest scientific methods, and carried out by big business. So to survive you have to trust the government, science, and big business just to stay alive..
> 
> To be productive we also need to trust that tall buildings, elevators, and bridges were all build properly. But we weren't there to oversee construction, So again, we have to trust government inspectors, science, and big business.
> 
> ...


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Just posted this on another thread but the hospital I visit regularly is no longer allowing cloth masks. Surgical masks only.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> We all need to have trust to survive. It's imperative that we trust our food & water source. Without it we die. Yet food & water are regulated by government, applying the latest scientific methods, and carried out by big business. So to survive you have to trust the government, science, and big business just to stay alive..
> 
> To be productive we also need to trust that tall buildings, elevators, and bridges were all build properly. But we weren't there to oversee construction, So again, we have to trust government inspectors, science, and big business.
> 
> ...


FLINT MICHIGAN

CHAMPLAIN TOWERS SOUTH IN SURFSIDE FLORIDA 

Highway problems, where to start…..


The medical field has issues just like anyone else. I do not have to volunteer to be a test subject for a covid vaccine that the government, manufactures and supply chain can not be held liable for. I will continue to wait for at least full approval and then still not sure. The risk from covid is so small to start with, already had it. So pfft.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Ziptie said:


> Just posted this on another thread but the hospital I visit regularly is no longer allowing cloth masks. Surgical masks only.


Well that’s a big difference,,,,, not so much. Wow


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

From the National Institute of Health:








Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks


The emergence of a pandemic affecting the respiratory system can result in a significant demand for face masks. This includes the use of cloth masks by large sections of the public, as can be seen during the current global spread of COVID-19. However, ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




"Although the filtration efficiencies for various fabrics when a single layer was used ranged from 5 to 80% and 5 to 95% for particle sizes of <300 nm and >300 nm, respectively, the efficiencies improved when multiple layers were used and when using a specific combination of different fabrics. Filtration efficiencies of the hybrids (such as cotton–silk, cotton–chiffon, cotton–flannel) was >80% (for particles <300 nm) and >90% (for particles >300 nm). *We speculate that the enhanced performance of the hybrids is likely due to the combined effect of mechanical and electrostatic-based filtration. Cotton, the most widely used material for cloth masks performs better at higher weave densities (i.e., thread count) and can make a significant difference in filtration efficiencies*. Our studies also imply that gaps (as caused by an improper fit of the mask) can result in over a 60% decrease in the filtration efficiency, implying the need for future cloth mask design studies to take into account issues of “fit” and leakage, while allowing the exhaled air to vent efficiently. *Overall, we find that combinations of various commonly available fabrics used in cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of aerosol particles."*


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)




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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> View attachment 98965


I think you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I believe the art work to be well done, the characters seem anatomically accurate and possibly representative of San Francisco or Portland.
I like it and I may steal it for future use on other mediums.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> I believe the art work to be well done, the characters seem anatomically accurate and possibly representative of San Francisco or Portland.
> I like it and I may steal it for future use on other mediums.


I got it from Eric Idle‘s Twitter feed. Hence the funky British spelling.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> I think you have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh, probably not. But at least I don’t sound like a sullen child.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> Oh, probably not. But at least I don’t sound like a sullen child.


That sounds like an informed, intellectual argument. Please continue.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hiro said:


> That sounds like an informed, intellectual argument. Please continue.


Much like yours. 
I’ll let you have the stage now, Champ.
Carry on.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> From the National Institute of Health:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s nice to see a mask study, well sort of a study. I could not help but notice such words as 

Speculate
Likely
Imply
Potentially

Seems real common with covid articles.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Everyone is winging it.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Guess we need more reminding, so mask are back?



“In this Q&A, Dr. Gregory Poland, a COVID-19 expert, answers questions about public masking,”

Q. Why is the CDC recommending that people wear cloth masks in public?


“a behavioral reminder that there's a pandemic and life is not the same right now”










COVID-19: Mayo Clinic expert answers questions about masks after CDC updates its recommendation - Mayo Clinic News Network


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is recommending people wear nonmedical cloth masks while in public to decrease the risk of COVID-19 transmission from person to person. The cloth masks should: Fit snugly but comfortably against the side of the face. Be secured with ties or...




newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ziptie said:


> Just posted this on another thread but the hospital I visit regularly is no longer allowing cloth masks. Surgical masks only.


The ones here require that you put on a new mask from their sanitation station, even if you are already wearing a hospital issue mask.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> View attachment 98965


Excellent expamle of the Lib's use of pseudo-science and false logic in soreading propaganda for fear---

In the case where only the pee-ee wears pants, he still gets wet enough"to be infected."

In the second, where both the pee-er and the Pee-ee wear pants, the pee doesn't spray directly to the pee=ee--Instead it comes in contact with air and if it were volatile enough (like the CoV is) then enough would still reach the pee-ee.

If the pee-er wore water tight pants, then nothing (like air) could get in either. The pee-er would die of asphyxiation if the the water tight pants were an air tight mask (the only really effective way to stop the spread of an airborne virus 

In case anybody forgot-- I posted the refs earlier-- Hosp tests done a few yrs ago showed that N95 masks are 90%+ effective at preventing nurses from catching influeza (particle size 10u from their flu pts, surgical masks ~40% effective and cloth masks <10% effective.....CoV particle size 0.1u--that's 100x smaller than the flu virus....Studies early on here showed that nurses fully equipped with PPE were 6x more likely to catch CoV than the gen eral public...and Ist responders just as likely to catch CoV if they were masked and gloved as not....

The science certainly does not warrant universal regulations on these matters...You make the call-- if you feel more confident wearing a mask, go for it.... Some people seem to think a helmet will save their lives too when their 'chute doesn't open.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> Some people seem to think a helmet will save their lives too when their 'chute doesn't open.


When this guy hit the ground he bounced about 20 feet. His head went one way and his body went another.

A 29-year-old California man who pioneered the sport of sky surfing in the United States plunged to his death Friday when a parachute failed to open during the world's largest sky-diving convention, held in Quincy, Ill.​​Jerry Loftis of Modesto, Calif., is survived by a wife and two young children. They were in California when the accident occurred, said Adams County Deputy Coroner Jim Keller.​







PIONEERING SKY DIVER DIES IN QUINCY JUMP


A 29-year-old California man who pioneered the sport of sky surfing in the United States plunged to his death Friday when a parachute failed to open during the world's largest sky-diving convention, held in Quincy, Ill.



www.chicagotribune.com


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

doc- said:


> Excellent expamle of the Lib's use of pseudo-science and false logic in soreading propaganda for fear---


excellent example of a prevaricator using political labels to manipulate.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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