# Irritating Co-Worker



## MollysMom (Apr 20, 2010)

I work with another nurse who use to work for a horse racing stable. She acts as if she is the only one who knows everything about horses. My husband and I have two older quarter horses, which were given to us by some friends, about 3 years ago. Willy hasn't been ridden for years, even before he came to our home. Lexy has never been ridden. 

We take good care of these beautiful horses and love them so much. Lexy once was face shy, but since she and I have bonded, I can hug her, kiss her, and groom her. I cared for her injury when she got caught on the fence, trying to get grass on the other side. Willy is the grumpy one, but he is so sweet around us. I adored this silly guy. They are well feed, and well cared for. They have a large field to roam and run in, plus their stable, to come and go into. We just don't ride them. We are also older adults, I'm 59, Jim is 64.

She says I am mistreating them, because I do not ride them. That they have to be ridden to serve their purpose to be in this world and that we should find a family who will ride them and train them. Is she right? Are we being bad horse owners? :fussin:


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Ideally a horse would be worked (by a good handler, not someone stressful to the horse) almost daily, for their mental and physical health. However, in our current culture, many don't get the work they really need. So yea, it's not good for them to not be used (or be on enough acreage they really roam on their own) but it's the common state of horses today. Your horses could be a lot worse off. 

Now, if they are staying in a stall and not getting out and getting worked. I do believe that is terrible for a horse. 

Horses are made to move.

Mine don't get worked either. But they do have a lot of land at least.

BTW, an unused horses is generally better off than a race horse anyway!


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

She says they have a large field to roam, they have eachother for horse company and they have their people who they are happy to see each day......doesn't sound like a bad life to me AT ALL.


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## mothernature (Aug 22, 2010)

If you are caring for their needs and loving them you need not do anything else! Maybe their purpose is to bring enjoyment to the people who are caring for them?! They are fortunate to have such a good caring home, thank you for providing them with that!! Sounds like your co-worker needs some training!!:bash:


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I am thinking you have given them a retirement home? And you are content with them as pets? Trying to teach an older horse who has never been ridden, to BE RIDDEN, isn't all that easy. Small steps with her. And the other, well, small steps with HIM will allow you to ride him again, if that is what you want.

Ask this lady if she would prefer the alternative, which is usually slaughter or abuse and neglect, for these older guys. The one who has never been ridden, and is older now, well, NO ONE will take her if there is another one her age who HAS been ridden, follow?

Surround these guys with love like you have been doing, give them ample turnout and tell her to mind her own business. I have had several horses throughout my horse owning years that were unable to be ridden and died here with me, fat, sleek, shiny and happy. 

Bless you for taking these guys in.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

jill.costello said:


> She says they have a large field to roam, they have eachother for horse company and they have their people who they are happy to see each day......doesn't sound like a bad life to me AT ALL.


Yup. I ask Buddy if he is OK with just being a pasture ornament now, and he says, yeah...tough life, but he thinks he can do it. :happy0035:


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## Harmony_Meadows (Nov 4, 2007)

Domestic horses need their owners to provide mental and physical stimulation. In the wild, they have their herd and their place in it and are constantly on the move for food. That said, it is very ignorant of people to believe that sitting on their back and riding them around is the only way to provide them what they need. Your guys have a nice field to move and eat in....how many horses that get ridden have only little dirt padocks to live in! And yet that is never questioned. If you want to give your guys some more mental stimuation, there are lots of things you can do. They can be trained to drive. You can teach them things, like picking things up or perhaps you can set up a little trail course you can do in hand. Wild horses don't canter around "on the bit" or anything like that, they walk. Sometimes they do some running, but for the most part, they walk, a lot. Perhaps you can cut a "trail" in you pasture or on your property and take them out for walks. I do that with my foals all the time. We go for trail walks. It exposes them to new surroundings, gives both of us good exercise and helps enforce good manners on the lead. The point being, that while it is good to give them a "job", think outside the saddle up and ride them box. Tell your co-worker that if she feels your horses are being mistreated to file a complaint with Animal Services. Otherwise she can take a flying leap! You sound to me like you care very well for your horses....they are lucky to have you!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Pish. Horses don't need to be ridden to be happy. You are providing everything they need, in fact, it sounds like you have the perfect setup for them. Tell your co-worker that their job is keeping the pasture down, looking pretty, and making you happy- that's what my (out of work) broodmares are doing for me.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Pish. Horses don't need to be ridden to be happy. You are providing everything they need, in fact, it sounds like you have the perfect setup for them. Tell your co-worker that their job is keeping the pasture down, looking pretty, and making you happy- that's what my (out of work) broodmares are doing for me.


Ditto. Caroline's outgrown ponies are happy as pigs in mud, turned out with a buddy.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I think your horses sound perfectly happy. If you want to give them some mental stimulation, what about doing some of the *gasp* Parrelli ground exercises? You can teach them to play with balls and do exercises and tricks, it should be a lot of fun for all of you. Otherwise, just keep enjoying your horses and don't worry about your co-worker!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Hmmm...unless your coworker wants to hop on the mare's back, the one wgho has never been ridden? Tell her to put up or shut up!


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## Kristin814 (Jan 25, 2011)

The fact that you even question whether or not you give them a good home proves that you do. People who neglect animals would never ask that. I don't quite understand what you co-worker is implying? Does that mean that she thinks the only good horse is a rideable one? There are plenty of "pasture pets" that are unable to be ridden for one reason or another what does she propose should be done with these seeing as the only happy horse is one that is being ridden?

At any rate, cuddle your two older horses and feel safe knowing that they are somewhere that they are cared for. In this economy older horses, especially ones that have not/are not being ridden, do not usually have happy endings.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yep, considering today's economy, your horses are very lucky.

No two people feed, tend, train the same. You've seen improvement for the good in the horses. You must be doing something right!! 

I'd consider talking to your co-worker only when the job calls for it. If you're harassed, and are comfortable reporting it to superiors, do so. There's always the ACLU!! -LOL- You know how to ignore things in your life; put the busybody on the list.

And if you really wanted to ride them, I'd bet it wouldn't be difficult if you knew someone who was a relaxed, easy going, and confident rider if you weren't the one to do it. Altho they're bonded with you and would do better with you. Same with hitching them up to drive a cart and take you for rides. If not, it's fine. Keep doing what you're doing.

Don't know what you consider "old," but horses can live and work 40+ years.


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## mayfair (May 7, 2006)

They sound like they have a great life  . Pasture, a buddy and people who love them.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

One thing about horse people- they are always happy to tell you how you are doing something wrong. It's seems to these people think that because they are defending a horse (whether they are right or wrong,) they have a perfect right to be as rude as they want.
I remember boarding a difficult horse in the only place I could find for him to be safe. But it was on a well travelled road up to an upper income housing area. People stopped me to tell me that I should blanket my horse or not blanket my horse, that I was cruel to have a fat horse or I was cruel to starve him, depending on which view they took. They stopped and complained to the farrier about things- he told them where to go. One woman who had never had a horse stopped to complain to me while I was holding a feed bucket for my horse to eat his grain about the horse sharing the field not being fed- she had been told that winter grass had no nutritional value. I explain in a way that made her back up that I was standing in the rain holding a bucket for my horse to keep his overweight friend from getting fatter. 
The ideal horse set up would be a miles wide field of moderate, slow growing grass and a small herd to socialize with- and no humans to bother them. However this is not the way life is.
The one break I can give the coworker is that she worked in a racing stable which mean lots of young, hot bred horses overfed on hot food so they have the energy to run all out. So she probably has a distorted view of the true couch potato horse elsewhere.
You might ask her in surprise how she could have ever worked in an industry that forces baby horses to run on their undeveloped bones until they damage themselve. Rudeness can spin in both directions.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

where I want to said:


> You might ask her in surprise how she could have ever worked in an industry that forces baby horses to run on their undeveloped bones until they damage themselve. Rudeness can spin in both directions.


^ Good one. 

I'm betting your pasture puffs are just as happy as they can be on their large field with horse company and people who dote on them. Doesn't sound like a bad life to me.


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## Kristin814 (Jan 25, 2011)

where I want to said:


> she worked in a racing stable which mean lots of young, hot bred horses overfed on hot food so they have the energy to run all out. So she probably has a distorted view of the true couch potato horse elsewhere.
> You might ask her in surprise how she could have ever worked in an industry that forces baby horses to run on their undeveloped bones until they damage themselves.



I really wanted to go there but didn't want to start an arguement, I am glad you did. Anyone who takes everything they learn in the racing industry and applies it to every situation is not the person to be listening to. Opinions are like  everyone has one and they all stink. It's important to critically evaluate information given to you no matter who is talking! Don't let your co-worker bring you down.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I used to see thouroghbred brood mares in a pasture, and nobody rode them. The colts were trained and sold.

Are brood mares usually ridden? I suspect not!


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

If only 1/2 the horses in this world were as *abused* as yours.


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## MollysMom (Apr 20, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the nice words. Lexy and Willy love the pasture, in the spring, summer and fall it is lush and green. They have plenty of room to kick up their heels, which they do often. They aren't locked in the stable, it is open so they can go into it and leave when they wish to. They greet us every day, at the fence for their grain, hay or a treat. They call to us when we are outside or come home from work. They are a part of our lives and we love them. My coworker thinks she knows every thing. She is just so into everyones business. It has gotten her into trouble before at work. She's a good person, just so opinionated. (She blames it on being from New Jersey....)


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I think this is more a matter of personal beliefs than right and wrong. There is one thing to consider though, if you really care for these horses. What if they outlive you, or circumstances force you to sell them? Chances are the only person who would buy old untrained horses are kill buyers.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

MollysMom said:


> I work with another nurse who use to work for a horse racing stable.


She's right, you're abusing your well-fed, well-cared for horses. 

Since you don't ride them you should ship them off to the same place they ship the thoroughbreds they don't ride anymore. Because that's where they go, to the auction house, where people can buy and 'ride' them and make them useful. :viking:

Some people. I can't believe that she would say you 'abuse' your horses by not riding them. :soap:

You keep on what you're doing and pay no mind to your coworker.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yep, all horses need a job and those that have a job do live longer, but in today's times and circumstances, we have to think differently sometimes.

I've seen just about every type of species, house pets and livestock, roaming free due to being turned loose. Some folks just left the critters when they walked away from the foreclosure. We just can't take in so many of these critters.

This stupid country is making ethanol, that most in the business say is a failure, out of what should be our food/feed and the prices for us to buy food/feed are skyrocketing.

Our summers are very hot here. 10 to 15 degrees hotter in the sun than the reported shade temperatures. 130 degrees with no water, let alone feed, isn't good. It rarely rains here; humidity is quite low. Death by starvation/dehydration is a very unpleasant way for critters to die in our desert.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Having worked for a racing stable doesn't make your co-worker an expert of any sort. It is unfortunate she is as thoughtless as she is.

Most of the other posters are correct. In a large enough pasture, a pair of horses will be quite happy and content. In a stall or corral daily exorsize and socializing is very important.

My only suggestion for "pature ornaments" is to watch the weight. Your horses should be under veteranarian care for annual wormings and vaccinations. If they are healthy, they are happy.



where I want to said:


> You might ask her in surprise how she could have ever worked in an industry that forces baby horses to run on their undeveloped bones until they damage themselve.


This comment is unfortunate. There are other simular unfortunate comments also. As for this one, I'm not sure why someone would attack an industry because of one persons poor attitude. Especially when the opinion is unfounded. Through a lifetime of personal experience as a owner, breeder and trainer of race horses(mostly quarter) and years of reading scientific research results on this very topic(age related training/running), I can assure you that your claim is not only false, it is quite the opposite. Horses that do not under go training, including running, before they are three years old are three times more likely to incur injury. I will be happy to explain why this is in a different thread if asked. I will provide references to extensive research also. On a personal note, my wife's oldest horse is 24. He ran as a two year old. He ran on the chariots for a season or two. He worked as a pony horse at the races for the rest of his life while becoming a barrel racing horse. As a barrel horse he made professional rodeo finals at 17 and 18 years old. Last year, at 23, he competed in poles and barrels, winning the poles competition in the open division. Not bad for a horse that was supposedly crippled by racing as a baby.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

time said:


> This comment is unfortunate. There are other simular unfortunate comments also. As for this one, I'm not sure why someone would attack an industry because of one persons poor attitude. Especially when the opinion is unfounded. Through a lifetime of personal experience as a owner, breeder and trainer of race horses(mostly quarter) and years of reading scientific research results on this very topic(age related training/running), I can assure you that your claim is not only false, it is quite the opposite. Horses that do not under go training, including running, before they are three years old are three times more likely to incur injury. I will be happy to explain why this is in a different thread if asked. I will provide references to extensive research also. On a personal note, my wife's oldest horse is 24. He ran as a two year old. He ran on the chariots for a season or two. He worked as a pony horse at the races for the rest of his life while becoming a barrel racing horse. As a barrel horse he made professional rodeo finals at 17 and 18 years old. Last year, at 23, he competed in poles and barrels, winning the poles competition in the open division. Not bad for a horse that was supposedly crippled by racing as a baby.


+1,000
Thank You for stating something that had to be said.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

time said:


> This comment is unfortunate. There are other simular unfortunate comments also. As for this one, I'm not sure why someone would attack an industry because of one persons poor attitude. Especially when the opinion is unfounded. Through a lifetime of personal experience as a owner, breeder and trainer of race horses(mostly quarter) and years of reading scientific research results on this very topic(age related training/running), I can assure you that your claim is not only false, it is quite the opposite. Horses that do not under go training, including running, before they are three years old are three times more likely to incur injury. I will be happy to explain why this is in a different thread if asked. I will provide references to extensive research also. On a personal note, my wife's oldest horse is 24. He ran as a two year old. He ran on the chariots for a season or two. He worked as a pony horse at the races for the rest of his life while becoming a barrel racing horse. As a barrel horse he made professional rodeo finals at 17 and 18 years old. Last year, at 23, he competed in poles and barrels, winning the poles competition in the open division. Not bad for a horse that was supposedly crippled by racing as a baby.


No one said that racing crippled them _all_. I'd like to see your scientific research on the subject, please. I just can't get my head around putting a long yearling into intense training and that not having an effect on bone growth and tendon/ligament development. 

IMHO, no one is attacking an industry over one person's attitude it's because of that industry's practices.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> No one said that racing crippled them _all_. I'd like to see your scientific research on the subject, please. I just can't get my head around putting a long yearling into intense training and that not having an effect on bone growth and tendon/ligament development.
> 
> IMHO, no one is attacking an industry over one person's attitude it's because of that industry's practices.


Agreed. I would also be interested to see the studies.

A weanling/yearling/2 year old self-exercising while living outside in a herd situation, would, I believe, have a better outlook for long-term soundness than a young horse who spends most of his time in a stall - but forcing exercise and carrying a rider at a very young age (2 years or younger) is another thing altogether.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I have seen many breeds of horses that were broken down by the age of 5 years old, because they were started as 2 year olds, before their plates had closed up. I have talked about this before and Xrays don't lie.
People can say what they want, try to spin it any way they want, just like chains on a horses pasterns, soring or what ever, it is Abuse.
The greed of winning at any costs....

Anyway Molly,
If horses have a nice pasture, they don't need to be worked every day. Mine sure don't, specially after the accident. 
They have enough room to run and play, hilly too, out 24/7 so they get plenty of exercise. They are happy healthy, well cared for and that is what is important. 

People like that Lady,,, all they would get is a raised Eye Brow and I would say... Really... now nice. Then totally ignore them.

I ride Icelandic's and I am sure, once I get over to VA and around some people with the Big Fancy horses.... will get comments like aren't you to big for your horse, or are you ready to grow up. 
Find people like that, can't handle what I ride. 
I just do the raised Eye brow thing again and say.... Like to see you go to Iceland and tell a 6+ tall Viking they are too big for their horses...and I know the perfect Icelander to send them too. Adding an Evil grin. 
I know what Icelanders do to people like that. VBG


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

Glad to see this post...we basically have the same setup for our ponies. Got them 
about 3 years ago with the intent to ride them but it just hasn't worked out. Now,
apparently I have to also lose weight b4 I can ride them since my dw says I'm too fat ;-(
They are just pasture ornaments now but they seem to be happy...


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I just can't get my head around putting a long yearling into intense training and that not having an effect on bone growth and tendon/ligament development.


You are correct. it does have an "effect on bone growth and tendon/ligament development." Training builds bone making the diameter bigger and the bone denser. I think most people are aware already of the benifits of exorsize for muscle and tendon ligament developement. 

I'm not sure what you think "intense training" is. The last thing an owner or trainer wants is to cut a racehorses career short. Even if you have the opinion it's all about money, it doesn't make sence to ruin your money maker.

At any rate, it will take me some time to try to find the relevant information in a format for the internet. Most likely I will have to cite the original research papers and you'll have to find them yourself. I beleive your mind is made up and you will continue to believe what you want without reading the material but I'll take the time to do it anyway.

Most racehorse people 10-20 years ago felt we should move to ban 2yr old racing, myself included. This led to proper research on the subject, rather than using subjective opinion. This research changed my mind. For their safety, whether they race or not, my horses will be trained at a young age while their bones are developing or they will never run. Bone devolopement simply slows down more and more every month as they age making it impossible for a three or especially a four year old to develope good bone girth and density at the older age.

Talk to your Vet.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

time said:


> You are correct. it does have an "effect on bone growth and tendon/ligament development." Training builds bone making the diameter bigger and the bone denser. I think most people are aware already of the benifits of exorsize for muscle and tendon ligament developement.
> 
> I'm not sure what you think "intense training" is. The last thing an owner or trainer wants is to cut a racehorses career short. Even if you have the opinion it's all about money, it doesn't make sence to ruin your money maker.
> 
> ...


Presume much? Why would I talk to my Vet? He raced Standardbreds for years and didn't start them until they were 3 year olds because their bodies weren't ready for training- his words, not mine. 

I'm not anti-racing, I exercised Quarter Horses on the track as a teen and have owned many OTTBs. I'd say I'm anti starting any horse under the minimum age of 3 and preferably 4 tho. The OTTB mare I own now (from an elite farm in FL) was raced 3 times as a 2-3 year old, broke down and was extensively pinfired in both fronts. She's pasture sound, and I've had some wonderful sporthorses out of her, but she'll never be completely sound. She's just one example, and I have owned OTTBs that were sound coming off the track even racing until they were 5 or older. I've seen more that weren't sound coming off the track as 2 or 3 year olds.

Again, please provide the information you offered and I'll read it with an open mind.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

MollysMom, theres nothing a horse enjoys more than being left alone with other horses. Your certainly not mistreating your horses by not riding them. I do believe they should be provided with regular vet and hoof care and that means they need at least some minimal training to make these procedures safe. Enjoy your horses company and take good care of them. They will respond positively to your good care.

On the subject of bone growth etc. Time might be right about excercise helping a horse develop bone density. I don't have a dog in this fight but heres a couple of links that some might find interesting.

http://www.equinechronicle.com/ridi...affects-bone-development-in-young-horses.html

http://www.trainermagazine.com/euro...raining-young-horses-increase-their-bone-mass

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

I havn't presumed anything. My comments and explainations were directly related to yours.

There have been what I would call 'fads' in the industry. Pinfiring was one of them. I believe your thought that the mare was "broke down" is not accurate, at least at the time of pinfiring. Pinfiring was used in horses that were mildly to moderatly sore to improve healing in horses that would heal from mild injury anyway. After a couple of years, it was found that the time off required after pinfiring, the horse would have healed equally well in the same amount of time and returned to training without the procedure. Pinfiring is rare now as most owners are not willing to pay for a procedure that has no benifit.

It is true many horses do not hold up. You are welcome to your opinion on the age thing. I once had it myself. My wife and I currently own 5 horses from 24 to 4 years of age. All born and raised and raced by us. All of them retired from the track. All of them raced at 2. None of them retired due to injury. Of our own horses, none in the last 20 years has been retired due to injury. Most performance horse of any kind get what I call "burn out". They get bored. Then they are no longer challenged and don't train or perform well. This is what retired the vast majority of race horses. Other disiplines can get around this by doing other things but for various reasons it is more practicle to retire the race horse. For most quarter horses, this occures at 4 to 5 yrs.

My objection is the blanket statements across the industry. The thoughtless comments of an "irritating co-worker" progressed into those in the racing industry being accused of abuse. Both opinions are judgemental, not factual, and bigoted. 

I could easily state that unchalleged, unexorsized pasture ornaments are are abused. I don't believe that but could produce an arguement for it. It would be opinion not based in fact. It is no different for others to do the same to me as a race horse person.

Given time, i will produce the research. I will have to sift through mountains of papers to find it so it will take time. In the meantime, why don't someone give me some scientificly researched material that training two year olds produces higher degrees of lameness and injury during, after and at older ages. If there was such data out there, it would have been used by PETA and other groups already. You know, something other than "I owned an ex-racehorse and it had bad joints".


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

In my experience, the general way of nature is stress followed by rest builds, too much stress destroys. This applies to bone, mind, muscle, hooves and even skin. 

So I believe it makes sense that some training would be beneficial and too much would break down. I'm glad my horses are on enough land they are able to run flat out and do their theatrics on their own to build their strength. 

I do remember reading a study that showed free jumping horses young (I believe under 15 months was ideal) developed stronger joints for a lifetime. But you just can't overdo it. The body has to have time to catch up.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

levi1739 said:


> MollysMom, theres nothing a horse enjoys more than being left alone with other horses. Your certainly not mistreating your horses by not riding them. I do believe they should be provided with regular vet and hoof care and that means they need at least some minimal training to make these procedures safe. Enjoy your horses company and take good care of them. They will respond positively to your good care.
> 
> On the subject of bone growth etc. Time might be right about excercise helping a horse develop bone density. I don't have a dog in this fight but heres a couple of links that some might find interesting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links. I finally did some internet search and came up with more articles of a simular nature. I won't provide all the links as it's redundant and anyone truly interested can find them easily on google. Just use a variaty of search terms.

I personally prefer to read the actuall scientific reports but these are generally just refered to in the various articles and are much more difficult to find online. 

There is more information I would like to include.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/mediaCenter.asp?story=434

This includes a link to the actuall numbers.

For those intent on basing an opinion on sad pictures posted by anti racing groups such as PETA(who are also opposed to your riding up the trail) that do not finiance such scientific inquiries nor cite any, I cannot change your opinion. But I will continue to point out the the opinion is subjective and biased.

I apologize to the OP for the thread hijack. It was not my intent. You may tell your co-worker that cleaning stalls for a racing stable does not make her an expert of any sort. This comes from a licenced trainer.

JC Price


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Throw me in jail because I don't ride mine really anymore. They are all broke to ride, but other than checking hay and water daily I don't have time to do anything else with them. But they are all so well broke I know that when I do have time to ride they will be there waiting. During the summer they are in a herd and roam over 160 acres. THis winter they are locked in about 20 acres because they are boarded out and kept breaking into the bale fence. I _really_ think they will survive. And ok...if you are supposed to ride a horse everyday how come mine run like heck when they see me coming with a halter?? lol! Maybe a horse is happier just wandering around with its friends. 

It would be TOTALLY different if I kept mine locked in stalls. But they have never seen a stall. Mine wander around so much that one horse I have haven't trimmed the hooves on in about 5 years and they pretty much look fresh trimmed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Interesting links, Levi1739. I was thinking about it while doing chores this morning (my best thinking time) while they do make a good point about bone density- what about damage to the growth plates of long bones on young horses? How much stress is too much? 

Also, on further musing I wondered how much of the unsoundness of young Thoroughbreds is the horrible conformation that is so common? Many TB breeders use blood line only in their program rather than conformation based breeding. An ill conformed horse will break down sooner rather than later. 

I have further reading to do...


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Interesting links, Levi1739. I was thinking about it while doing chores this morning (my best thinking time) while they do make a good point about bone density- what about damage to the growth plates of long bones on young horses? How much stress is too much?
> 
> Also, on further musing I wondered how much of the unsoundness of young Thoroughbreds is the horrible conformation that is so common? Many TB breeders use blood line only in their program rather than conformation based breeding. An ill conformed horse will break down sooner rather than later.
> 
> I have further reading to do...


I only have a general(maybe basic) idea on how growth plates work and have not seen, read or am i aware of any growth plate issues in race horses in training. My opinion at this point would be generalized and based on experience. But since it is so difficult to discover previous held beliefs about the industry abusing two year olds undeveloped bones is proven to be false, it's quite easy to try to find another reason to blame accuse the industry.

What I do know is that young colts(real babies) that are born with crooked legs or develope crooked legs in the first couple months can be striaghtend by surgically manipulating the growth plates. However, this must be done when they are only a few months old. Once past a year of age and the growth plates cause or restrict growth at a very small rate, making this type of intervention useless. I have been involved in this type of growth plate intervention a few times. I personally know of one horse that had several of these surguries as a baby that were successfull. He did not run at two. starting at three he ran well enough to win several grade 1 stakes races. He ran till seven. Anyway, given my experience with growth plates and the lack of any racing horses I'm aware of to have a growth plate issue caused by racing I'm of the opinion it will have little to no impact on a racing or training horse. But please share any info you find.

On the conformation issue, I will agree 100%. This is a well known and common belief within the industry. I have two concerns about using this to discuss two year old racing though. One, this effects a horse the same from birth to death. A two year old with imperfect conformation carries the same risk as a three year old or a ten year old or a twenty year old. Second, why use it to try to prove one industry is bad when ALL equine industries have horses competeing that do not have perfect conformation?

This will be my last post in this thread on two year old racing. Many of the facts have been provided. I can continue to give scientific and statistical information but the point becomes mute. Those opposed will not open their minds to pure facts and will continue with their beliefs based on emotional responce. No one wants to see a horse put down or hurt. Not you, not me, not the racing industry. Unfortunately it happens. In racing and out. I've never had to put a horse down due to racing injury thank god. I've had to put many down over the years due to illness, accident or injury that were not in race training.

I do not pretend to know everything so any relevant information you may find, I would like to read it and learn. 

Thank you.

JC Price


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I found an excellent article by Deb Bennett, Ph.D. which indicates it's hard (and extremely rare) to actually damage the growth plates of a young horse- which was news to me. The article does give a reference chart of when the different parts of a horse mature. It's a good read. I'm glad that this thread went in the direction it did, I've learned some new stuff and that's always a good thing. :grin:

http://www.womenandhorses.com/newsletter-2006january.html


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> I found an excellent article by Deb Bennett, Ph.D. which indicates it's hard (and extremely rare) to actually damage the growth plates of a young horse- which was news to me. The article does give a reference chart of when the different parts of a horse mature. It's a good read. I'm glad that this thread went in the direction it did, I've learned some new stuff and that's always a good thing. :grin:
> 
> http://www.womenandhorses.com/newsletter-2006january.html


That was an interesting article but it also does say this:

_Today, though, this has been forgotten, so that many perfectly well-intentioned investors simply do not know that a three year old is not a mature horse and that two year olds have absolutely no business whatsoever at the racetrack (if all the two year olds were taken off the track tomorrow, 90% of the illegal drugs and training techniques would disappear tomorrow, too). _


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> That was an interesting article but it also does say this:
> 
> _Today, though, this has been forgotten, so that many perfectly well-intentioned investors simply do not know that a three year old is not a mature horse and that two year olds have absolutely no business whatsoever at the racetrack (if all the two year olds were taken off the track tomorrow, 90% of the illegal drugs and training techniques would disappear tomorrow, too). _


I noticed that, Lisa and I agree.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

So the studies only measured cannon bone density in horses up to age 2-3? It says you should keep your young horses on turnout - well, I really don't think anyone is arguing that. I'm sure any youngster will gallop 1/8 of a mile on his own accord while playing in a pasture, and "densify" his own bone 

What about any long-term soundness studies? Joint damage? Tendons and ligaments? And anything about the spine??

I have been a licensed exercise rider, though I have far more experience with the WP QHs/Paints/Apps who are regularly started at the early age of 2. As a farrier for the past 15 years, I've been keenly aware of what happens to these young horses as they are trained and later retired due to lameness. It's not uncommon for 4 year old WP horses to be getting monthly hock injections to stay sound. The horses are considered "aged" at the age of 6!! Many are too crippled to even be trail horses by the time they are in their early teens.

I wonder what a study of their long-term soundness would show? Maybe I should start one...


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## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

Lots of people around here own minis that they neither ride or drive.they are just pets.the big horse farms do not break many of the broodmares.i see nothing wrong with either one.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

malinda said:


> So the studies only measured cannon bone density in horses up to age 2-3? It says you should keep your young horses on turnout - well, I really don't think anyone is arguing that. I'm sure any youngster will gallop 1/8 of a mile on his own accord while playing in a pasture, and "densify" his own bone
> 
> What about any long-term soundness studies? Joint damage? Tendons and ligaments? And anything about the spine??
> 
> ...


Obviously you glanced over the studies. The bone density studies(there have been more than one) have been done on older horses also.

I wasn't aware that you are a Vet working for a research organization. I would think you would know of most this research by now. By all means, start your own study. You may want to review studies that have been done already and the ones that are ongoing now. I would point you in the right direction but as your a research scientist, you will undoubtedly be able to find them in your journals and the fact that I'm getting a bit bored disputing every "I wonder what" theory that pops up with hard science and fact. In a few more posts I'd have to show scientific proof that all horses can get nose warts and not just two year old race horses.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Malinda, as she stated in her post, is a farrier. I imagine she could do informal research based on her clients from the last 15 years.

Did you read the article I linked by Deb Bennett? What is your opinion?


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Malinda, as she stated in her post, is a farrier. I imagine she could do informal research based on her clients from the last 15 years.
> 
> Did you read the article I linked by Deb Bennett? What is your opinion?


Malinda has given very good advice about many equine subjects in the forums. I do not doubt horsemanship abilities and I bet she is a very good farrier. With all do respect, informal studies are largely based on opinion whether intentional or not. I'ts obvious I am pro racing, would you take an "informal" study done by me seriously? I didn't think so. 

I did read the article. It was very good and I did learn from it. Her history of futurities is mostly correct. The Triple Crown consists of Derbys(three year olds) and open age races and not Futurities. Also, though many disiplines do use the two year old Futurities, some such as barrel racing futurities begin at three.

Then of course there is the illegal drug comment. This opinion of hers is out of context to the article wich was based on scientific fact about growth plates. That is the reason it is in ()'s. Because it does not pertain to the subject and is thus an opinion at this point. I do not mind this opinion but disagree with it. It is very difficuts to understand what she means as it is a fairly open statement. I will discuss this subject in a different thread openly. Just start it. :yuck:

I think the article is quite clear that there is no issue with growth plates and two year old racing. At least, not compared against three year old racing. As far as the whole issue of a horse not being mature untill six, it is obviously correct. I cannot refute the science. I don't believe waiting till six to have a useable horse is practicle to anyone. Quite frankly, I don't have enough bones to risk breaking on starting a horse much past three. One of the hardest horses for me to break was a 6 year old mare when I was a kid. She had me in the dirt more than any other horse I've ever been on. It's do-able but the older they are the longer they take.

How bout you? Gonna wait till they are 6 now that you know?


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

time said:


> Obviously you glanced over the studies. The bone density studies(there have been more than one) have been done on older horses also.
> 
> I wasn't aware that you are a Vet working for a research organization. I would think you would know of most this research by now. By all means, start your own study. You may want to review studies that have been done already and the ones that are ongoing now. I would point you in the right direction but as your a research scientist, you will undoubtedly be able to find them in your journals and the fact that I'm getting a bit bored disputing every "I wonder what" theory that pops up with hard science and fact. In a few more posts I'd have to show scientific proof that all horses can get nose warts and not just two year old race horses.


I read the one article you linked to which was in regards to fatalities of Thoroughbred race horses, ages 2 v. age 3 and up. That article did not mention types of injuries that caused the fatalities. I noticed that study also only included fatalities during or after races, or caused by race injuries, not during training.

The other two articles linked by another poster mentioned that keeping foals, weanlings, and yearlings on turnout increased bone density, and it mentioned a study of 15 Thoroughbreds who were studied from the beginning of race training starting as a yearling, into their early two-year-old year. It did not mention anything about older horses.

But really, my point is that cannon bone density alone is not the entire picture for soundness. Galloping a 2 year old can increase bone density, but what does it do to joints and cartilage? Tendons and ligaments? That is what I was trying to get at.

As far as my profession, I really doubt that I would forget what I do for a living and say that I was a veterinarian. In fact, I did post that I am a farrier. Most of the regular visitors here know that, but I did notice that you are new. I see you even quoted my post in yours so it seems as though you were really only being condescending.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

time said:


> Malinda has given very good advice about many equine subjects in the forums. I do not doubt horsemanship abilities and I bet she is a very good farrier. With all do respect, informal studies are largely based on opinion whether intentional or not. I'ts obvious I am pro racing, would you take an "informal" study done by me seriously? I didn't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are basing your conclusion on one mare when you were a kid? Haven't you said in prior posts that a personal experience with a horse or two doesn't cut it? I find that actual saddle work is easier on a horse older than 3. They've been ground worked since they were 2 or so and are more mentally ready for the saddle and subtle cues. I haven't put a horse into hard work before the age of 5 since I was 18 or 19 years old and didn't know any better.

I'm going to listen to my Cornell educated Vet and experts such as Deb Bennett, Phd I'm sorry if my opinion gores your sacred cow but your statements aren't going to change my mind. I suggest we agree to disagree on this subject before it gets ugly and causes wr more work.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Windsong was almost 6 when she was started and she was nothing less than a dream. Not a single buck out of her and she's extremely energetic and can be hot at times...nothing sluggish about her.
She was 5 when she was trailered for the first time and that trip was from KY to ID. Perfect behavior. 
Just my anecedotal evidence....


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I've started several horses when they were older, one being a 10 year old and there's really no difference between starting a young one and an older horse except an older horse has a mature mind and often copes with new information better.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I have always found the "Ranger" article by Deb Bennett to be unclear. I don't understand what exactly she is trying to say in this artcle and find it misleading and biased. It is certainly used as an internet reference a lot though, so some must find it meaningful.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

levi1739 said:


> I have always found the "Ranger" article by Deb Bennett to be unclear. I don't understand what exactly she is trying to say in this artcle and find it misleading and biased. It is certainly used as an internet reference a lot though, so some must find it meaningful.
> 
> 
> Have fun, be safe
> ...


I'm not trying to start an arguement, Jack but what isn't clear? You may not agree with what she writes, but do you doubt her research?


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

malinda said:


> I see you even quoted my post in yours so it seems as though you were really only being condescending.


This^

The point is, everytime I refute a claim and use scientific data to prove it, you simply move on to the next subjective opinion or try to expand it. If I show you that the sky is blue, you will say, 'I wonder what color it is when the clouds cover it'.

Now you want to know about long term muscle, joint and tendon health. Not a problem. Find the information, I'm not gonna spend the time finding and posting web information that you will not head anyway.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You are basing your conclusion on one mare when you were a kid? Haven't you said in prior posts that a personal experience with a horse or two doesn't cut it? I find that actual saddle work is easier on a horse older than 3. They've been ground worked since they were 2 or so and are more mentally ready for the saddle and subtle cues. I haven't put a horse into hard work before the age of 5 since I was 18 or 19 years old and didn't know any better.
> 
> I'm going to listen to my Cornell educated Vet and experts such as Deb Bennett, Phd I'm sorry if my opinion gores your sacred cow but your statements aren't going to change my mind. I suggest we agree to disagree on this subject before it gets ugly and causes wr more work.


I used the example of one mare when I was a kid. I don't think you want to hear all of them. Training opinions and theories are just that. Your welcome to yours. 

As for listening to your vet, I'm sure he is quite good, but as I recall, he trained his race horses at three. This goes against you and Deb Bennett, Phd.
Of course Deb is a Phd and the vet's I use are MD's. She did no research as the information she uses is common equine biology found at any decent library. She has done no official studies with comparative results on actuall horses. Sorry. Her "opinion" on illegal drugs is way off the mark. First off, they ARE illegal(though I do not know what kindss of things she has in mind). Secondly, any drug that can MAKE a two year old run faster can also MAKE an older horse run faster. Drugs do not discriminate to age. The opinion that removing two year olds from racing will stop drug use in racing is frankly absurd. Testing has removed any illegal drug use from racing. The reason you found her article was you was looking for evidence that two year old racing may damage the growth plates in the legs of horses. That theory was found to be false. So she developes an untested theory about the spine.

I don't see the conversation getting ugly. I enjoy the conversation and stated very early on that I know I'm not going to change any minds. You said you would keep an open mind if I presented the data. Rather than admit I am correct about bone density and drop the subject, it is easier to shift the subject and hold on to beliefs gained from an emotional responce. There HAS to be a reason two year old racing is bad and you won't stop looking till you find one. Look hard enough and you will find it whether it is real or not.

I do agree that we disagree.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

time, I don't think anyone accused you of abuse unless you control the entire racing industry. I do feel some good information has been offered and certainly worth the read but it might be a good idea if you want people to accept you facts to maybe have a look at theirs instead of being snippy.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

wr said:


> time, I don't think anyone accused you of abuse unless you control the entire racing industry. I do feel some good information has been offered and certainly worth the read but it might be a good idea if you want people to accept you facts to maybe have a look at theirs instead of being snippy.


Thank you, I edited my responce shortly after posting it.

I did read the posted link and found it usefull.

Snippy is a good way to put it and I'll keep that in mind.:grin:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

time said:


> As for listening to your vet, I'm sure he is quite good, but as I recall, he trained his race horses at three. This goes against you and Deb Bennett, Phd.
> Of course Deb is a Phd and the vet's I use are MD's. She did no research as the information she uses is common equine biology found at any decent library. She has done no official studies with comparative results on actuall horses. Sorry. Her "opinion" on illegal drugs is way off the mark. First off, they ARE illegal(though I do not know what kindss of things she has in mind). Secondly, any drug that can MAKE a two year old run faster can also MAKE an older horse run faster. Drugs do not discriminate to age. The opinion that removing two year olds from racing will stop drug use in racing is frankly absurd. Testing has removed any illegal drug use from racing. The reason you found her article was you was looking for evidence that two year old racing may damage the growth plates in the legs of horses. That theory was found to be false. So she developes an untested theory about the spine.
> 
> I don't see the conversation getting ugly. I enjoy the conversation and stated very early on that I know I'm not going to change any minds. You said you would keep an open mind if I presented the data. Rather than admit I am correct about bone density and drop the subject, it is easier to shift the subject and hold on to beliefs gained from an emotional responce. There HAS to be a reason two year old racing is bad and you won't stop looking till you find one. Look hard enough and you will find it whether it is real or not.
> ...


Please read the post again, my Vet (btw, any Vet that I've ever used is a DVM not a MD) STARTS them at 3. I'm certainly not an expert on training harness horses but I think it takes some time, perhaps 6-8 months? I'm guessing, but it's probably close. So, the horses in question are closer to 4 before they even start heavy training to race, correct? He told me once that he's had horses (trotters I believe) racing and doing quite well until they're up near 8-10. Does that happen often in TB racing, or was it Quarter Horses? 

You, yourself, have only supplied one link and that was an article about mortalities, I still don't understand why it's revelant to the conversation. I have kept an open mind, you just haven't presented any information that could possibly change it. The Deb Bennett article clearly indicates that the horse doesn't mature at 2 and most bones don't fuse until 4 and some even later. You may not like the information but you haven't been able to refute it. Quoting research done by the Jockey Club doesn't do much to solidify your position it's kin to having a fox guard the hen house.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

"Quoting research done by the Jockey Club doesn't do much to solidify your position it's kin to having a fox guard the hen house."

I wondered when that would come up. You have absolutley no research to back up your claims. You ignore information from your own source. "What is very unlikely to happen is that you'll damage the growth plates in his legs. At the worst, there may be some crushing of the cartilages, but the number of cases of deformed limbs due to early use is tiny." You apply this persons opinion to one industry but ignore the rest. All the while claiming to have an open mind. So, not only do we not agree on two yr olds, we don't even agree on what an open mind is.

I'll toss a 125lb kid on my two year old quarter horse. I will also make my 16 year old kid throw 120lb hay bales. I know the boy is not fully grown and his back and neck are not mature. Neither is the horses. I won't feel sorry for neither one. I wonder wich one is carrying more weight per body mass? 

Bottom line, your clinging to an unsubstantiated opinion.

The Jockey Club does not do research. The Jockey Club keeps statistics.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I dont feel it is abuse. However, as another poster stated, a horse untrained will more so end up at the meat market if you decide you need to find homes. The horse market is flooded with good riding horses. Not many folks are looking for pasture ornaments these days. I hate selling a horse as you never know where it will end up. But with more potential it will have a better chance at a good home. 
Just thinking ahead. I make sure any horse here gets lunged and walked. they learn real respect when I handle them. when ignored they lose respect. 
But I wouldnt say its abuse unless they spend there day in a stall or are alone.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

time said:


> The Jockey Club does not do research. The Jockey Club keeps statistics.


Pardon me, it should have read, ""Quoting research *funded* by the Jockey Club doesn't do much to solidify your position it's kin to having a fox guard the hen house."

Better?


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

I thought we were talking about soundness as a whole, and I include long-term soundness in that as well.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> I thought we were talking about soundness as a whole, and I include long-term soundness in that as well.


Me too. :stars:


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Pardon me, it should have read, ""Quoting research *funded* by the Jockey Club doesn't do much to solidify your position it's kin to having a fox guard the hen house."
> 
> Better?


Okay. And it's true. But, all scientific methods must pass peer review. I have seen no printed findings by any professionals that claim the research is flawed in any way.

More importantly, I have seen no research or statistics to contradict the results of the research done. I have seen no research studies by those that claim racing is bad.

The industry does not hide information. The staticists have cost many tracks millions of dollars. Early statistics showed that synthetic tracks had fewer catastrophic injuries. It is now Law in some states(California) that tracks are synthetic.

Since you said you agree with this statement; "(if all the two year olds were taken off the track tomorrow, 90% of the illegal drugs and training techniques would disappear tomorrow, too)", I have some questions.

1. Why do you agree.

2. What illegal drugs are you aware of being used for racing or training?

3. What are illegal training technics? describe them please.

4. If you know of an illegal drug commonly used in training/racing two year olds, please explain how it works and why it would not be effective in a three year old.

5. What legal drugs(the same ones available to your horse through your vet) are not legal in racehorses racing/training? If you know the answer to this one, you'll know it is a two part question.

6. If you don't personally know the answers to theses questions, I'm sure you can at least cite the research and statistics that helped you form your opinion.

There must be a reason for your opinion, I'm curious as to what that is.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> No one said that racing crippled them _all_. I'd like to see your scientific research on the subject, please. I just can't get my head around putting a long yearling into intense training and that not having an effect on bone growth and tendon/ligament development.
> 
> IMHO, no one is attacking an industry over one person's attitude it's because of that industry's practices.


This is what we was talking about. 

You kept widening the subject when you didn't like the answers. So NOW it is soundness as a whole. And I'm waiting for evidence.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

time, I keep getting the feeling that you feel the racing industry ain't broke and if it ain't broke, it don't need fixing.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

wr said:


> time, I keep getting the feeling that you feel the racing industry ain't broke and if it ain't broke, it don't need fixing.


Well, not exactly. But I see things in every equine disipline that I've spent much time around that I do not agree with.

My problem is generalization and assumptions about one industry as abusive from equine people that can get facts but would rather base an opinion on nothing.

I feel racing get's blamed for abuse that isn't there on an industry wide basis. I expect this from the general public as racing is way out if front of any other equine industry as it is televised more often and betting makes it a sport spectators can participate in. I do not expect it from those in other industeries that have their own problems. No one that has been involved in any performance industry for any amount of time can say they do not see or know of things(training methods, medicating, ect) they do not agree with or even feel may be considered abusive. I believe on a statistics basis(disclaimer: opinion only) the number of abuse cases(where legal action is considered or animals confiscated) on a percentage basis will be far higher for pasture ornaments than any other equine industry. 

Those that have equine knowledge and the problems related with horses should not be joining the ranks of PETA on false claims of abuse, especially when the equine enthusiasts themselves do not know specificaly what is abusive about it.

2.4 racing related deaths per 1000 horses that ran. If I owned 1000 horses on pasture, I would expect _at least _2.4 of them to die. And the law of horses states that those 2.4 that do die were my best/favorite two.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

If there's problems in a particular discipline or sport, everybody is going to wear it. Let's face it, the bad ones attract more attention than the good ones ever will. Cutters and reiners are all branded for the bad hocks that some are causing and to some degree, it's a good thing because it encourages the honest ones to to police and mentor, which improves the industry but denying it ever happens allows the bad ones to keep doing what they're doing and creates more. 

Another example would be the big issue of all the sled dogs killed in BC recently. Not all sledders are bad people and I don't think I've evern heard of racers as a group culling that volume or in that manner but right now, ever dog sledder is considered a pretty bad guy but with all the scrutiny, there's going to be a lot of changes to the sport which will clean up a lot of issues. 

Essentially, it usually isn't the top or even the middle of the industry that needs to be cleaned up, it's the bottom and each time the bar is raised, it culls a few more bads.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

I agree, but....................

In racing, horses are now tested extensively for drugs. Is there ever positive tests? Yep. It's not common and 99% of these are legal for general horse health but are still in the system of the horse from days before racing. I won't give details on this untill posters have a chance to answer the questions I've posed. But I will say I have to take carefull considerations when and if I can use antibiotics to treat my horse for any ailment. Drugs have been illegal for years and years, steps to control their use has improved every year and there are yearly changes to address the issue. Despite all these changes, drugs are one of the major excuses poeple use to say bad things about racing. No mind that a horse can be tested days before a race, the day of the race including directly after a race, and days later. If my horse tests positive for an antibiotic, my licence is in jepordy. At any track, if I win, the first place I have to go, with the horse, is to the test barn. This stigma dogs the industry today and will forever, whether there is still truth to it or not. And there is no truth to it anymore.

It does not matter if the industry addresses these issues. It doesnt matter that the industry spends millions to research, testing, track surfaces or anything else. Those that want to believe racing is bad hang on to subjective opinions no matter what the facts are. This thread proves that. 

People that do not like racing want it stoped not improved. They do not care if their claims are true or not. This thread proves that.

For this reason, my 2 cents is that the racing industry may as well quit spending all this money and apply it to purses. It has not changed the perspective of anti-racing people. Go back to no more testing for drugs. It has done nothing to dispell the drug beliefs. Quit spending money on statistics. Nobody cares. As soon as there is a picture of one horse going down, the statistics do not matter. Do not pay for anymore research. If an ex race horse gets lame at all, it will be because it was raced. Period. Save mony on security at the stables. No employees needed if no tackroom shake downs are needed. 

The racing industry gets absolutly nothing for improvements. This thread proves that. Racers will race and betters will bet. More money for us and we just turn our hearing aids off to the rest. Sounds good to me.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I do know that bone remodels in response to stress. It depends on the stress whether this is good or bad.
I also remember my years looking through the rejects from racing stables and traines to buy . Stall after stall of popped knees, spavins, bowed tendons, occelets, etc etc etc and none over 5 years old. It was a challenge to find one that stood a resonable chance to be rehabbed. An unraced thorobred was gold. Truth is that money is to be made running young horses. Unless they are unusually outstanding, the longer they are kept, the less income to outgo. And a lot of stables are run on a shoestring and wishful thinking meaning that the horses are run a lot. A horse standing in a stall is not making money. 
Racing is a precarious business for all but the very upper levels.
I have always enjoyed harness racing so it is not anti-racing that is being discussed. It's saddling long yearlings so they can run the day the calender ticks over in January. I object to other competitions that go through young horses like water too. There are lots of them. Train them early, show them young, sell them fast. 
As for your remark about people who object to racing not listening to any "scientific" evidence- seems like the same standards are applying by those who want to racing 2 yr olds. Nothing will stop them.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

time - I thought you were saying that scientific, peer reviewed research is the only thing that proves anything. I'm quite sure this thread doesn't prove a darn thing in reality.  All you have are a few people's opinions and ideas. That's pretty much all anyone is going to get here, so enjoy it. I know that reading this thread I've got TONS of opinions, but I kinda figure that no one really wants to hear them except me! lol


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Carol, thank you. I did enjoy the conversation. You are correct, the thread didn't and doesn't prove anything. That goes for my side of the conversation also. But your wrong about one thing. I'd LOVE to hear your opinions :gossip:


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

where I want to said:


> I do know that bone remodels in response to stress. It depends on the stress whether this is good or bad.
> I also remember my years looking through the rejects from racing stables and traines to buy . Stall after stall of popped knees, spavins, bowed tendons, occelets, etc etc etc and none over 5 years old. It was a challenge to find one that stood a resonable chance to be rehabbed. An unraced thorobred was gold. Truth is that money is to be made running young horses. Unless they are unusually outstanding, the longer they are kept, the less income to outgo. And a lot of stables are run on a shoestring and wishful thinking meaning that the horses are run a lot. A horse standing in a stall is not making money.
> Racing is a precarious business for all but the very upper levels.
> I have always enjoyed harness racing so it is not anti-racing that is being discussed. It's saddling long yearlings so they can run the day the calender ticks over in January. I object to other competitions that go through young horses like water too. There are lots of them. Train them early, show them young, sell them fast.
> As for your remark about people who object to racing not listening to any "scientific" evidence- seems like the same standards are applying by those who want to racing 2 yr olds. Nothing will stop them.


There is some truth to your statements. I also believe your experience on looking for horses to buy. But I'm inclined to believe you asked for cheap(or some alternate but equal phrase) horses and that is what you was shown. A $500 horse is priced that way for a reason. Anyone can go with a reasonable amount of cash and look at a nice selection horses and make an arrangement to buy after a vet inspection. Standard way to do business nowadays is if the horse is being sold as sound is the buyer pays for the vet check if it comes out clean and seller pays if a problem is found.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

time said:


> Carol, thank you. I did enjoy the conversation. You are correct, the thread didn't and doesn't prove anything. That goes for my side of the conversation also. But your wrong about one thing. I'd LOVE to hear your opinions :gossip:


Let's see... in my opinion the OP is taking GREAT care of her horses and should enjoy them fully as her big pets. 

I wrote out my opinions several times on other aspects of this thread and deleted them. Every time I found I was responding to my perceptions of what was said and the person saying it. Every time I found that I wanted to be "higher" than someone else, but I am no better than anyone, so I just quit there. 

I find I have to like the person that was worried that giving her horses a pasture, barn, food and attention was somehow abusing them. I'm pretty sure they'd like massages, hot bran mashes and their own pets! Oh... that's kinda what my old girl ended up with! hehe


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Those are good opinions.

Yeah I should have quit awhile ago. I even said I wasn't gonna post again but ran out of common sence and did it anyway.:smack


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## MollysMom (Apr 20, 2010)

HUH? What did I accidentally start. LOL!


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Hehe MollysMom, wasn't your fault. Sometimes thread hijack just happens! 

As for you, time, I do that all too often myself. Don't leave the board though, hang out, get a feel for what it's about and even be controversial at times, it's interesting. I've learned a lot here and still hang out, even though I lost my horse last spring.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

GrannyCarol said:


> Hehe MollysMom, wasn't your fault. Sometimes thread hijack just happens!
> 
> As for you, time, I do that all too often myself. Don't leave the board though, hang out, get a feel for what it's about and even be controversial at times, it's interesting. I've learned a lot here and still hang out, even though I lost my horse last spring.


Naw, I won't leave. There are good people here even if we have differences. 

Sorry about ya losing your horse, it'll be a sad day here when the old horse goes. He's not carrying much weight this winter.


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## Cashs Cowgirl (Jan 26, 2006)

:hijacked: 
Well Time, thats a shame that your old man isn't carrying weight well...come on, ' :cowboy: up' , put on some layers, and get him that hot beet pulp bran mash and what not that the old fellow needs to keep it on-three times a day if necessary. That's infinitely easier than attempting a hoof wrap on a 23 yr old feisty old man in good shape because of his mashes...


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Cashs Cowgirl said:


> :hijacked:
> Well Time, thats a shame that your old man isn't carrying weight well...come on, ' :cowboy: up' , put on some layers, and get him that hot beet pulp bran mash and what not that the old fellow needs to keep it on-three times a day if necessary. That's infinitely easier than attempting a hoof wrap on a 23 yr old feisty old man in good shape because of his mashes...


LOL. Yeah, he has free choice hay and gets equine SR. He and my wife won a years supply in an essay contest. He also gets calf manna. I don't care for beet pulp but it's a personal choice. I don't have anything bad to say about it either.

Last summer he was well enough to win open pole bending at a jackpot. He used to win barrels but now just places in the lower D's. Still pretty good for his age. I do worry about him though.

You jinxed me with the hoof soaking though. We now have to soak our 4year old mare. Not sure it's an absess but x-rays were clean and no swelling. Blocking the navicular area did not help lameness. Soaking to be safe. Hopefully it's just a gravel that needs to pop. It's on a front, so easier than a back.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

time, it really doesn't matter what you think has been done or if millions of dollars in advertising won't change the sitution. It all comes down to how each and every one of us presents ourself ever day. I found out a long time ago that there is absolutely no benefit in saying 'we don't do that' or 'our industry doesn't do things this way' and in all reality, if there's rules, there's cheaters. 

In my opinion, there are still a lot of TB's breaking down and it's pointless to say it doesn't happen when people see images on TV and there are still a the number of horses in rescues and in slaughter pens are real. I'm not as sure that the reason lies completely with training as much as it has to do with the evolution of the breed. My uncle was involved in the racing industry a good 40 years ago and the horses raised then look nothing like the horses raised now. They industry is leaning toward more speed and in my opinion, they're breeding an animal that is too fine too meet the rigors of the industry. 

I see the very same problems in QH's. The last time I went looking for a good ranch horse, I simply couldn't find anything even remotely close in the entire province. Those powerful horses with good feet, big chest, solid hip and good bone had been replaced by pretty little things with tiny feet, slender legs and narrow chests.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

wr said:


> time, it really doesn't matter what you think has been done or if millions of dollars in advertising won't change the sitution. It all comes down to how each and every one of us presents ourself ever day. I found out a long time ago that there is absolutely no benefit in saying 'we don't do that' or 'our industry doesn't do things this way' and in all reality, if there's rules, there's cheaters.
> 
> In my opinion, there are still a lot of TB's breaking down and it's pointless to say it doesn't happen when people see images on TV and there are still a the number of horses in rescues and in slaughter pens are real. I'm not as sure that the reason lies completely with training as much as it has to do with the evolution of the breed. My uncle was involved in the racing industry a good 40 years ago and the horses raised then look nothing like the horses raised now. They industry is leaning toward more speed and in my opinion, they're breeding an animal that is too fine too meet the rigors of the industry.
> 
> I see the very same problems in QH's. The last time I went looking for a good ranch horse, I simply couldn't find anything even remotely close in the entire province. Those powerful horses with good feet, big chest, solid hip and good bone had been replaced by pretty little things with tiny feet, slender legs and narrow chests.


I agree 100% with the breeding. It is a common opinion within the industry.

We don't 'lean' towards speed, we head directly to it.

I wish I could post a pic.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

time said:


> I agree 100% with the breeding. It is a common opinion within the industry.
> 
> We don't 'lean' towards speed, we head directly to it.
> 
> I wish I could post a pic.


If the picture is on your computer, you can join a free picture host like photobucket. Upload the picture there, then copy and paste the url. Then, highlight the url and click on the button that has a couple of moutains and the sun in it, just above the message box. Then when you submit the post the picture should show up.

If it was a matter of knowing how to post a picture and just not being able to, than disregard the above. lol


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Our pride and joy, DW. registered name Designedtowinraces (and he did)










Same horse. With my wife










And same horse again at Las Alamitos Race Course. I'm leading.










I can't find better pics on my comp, sorry. But this horse is not fine boned, lol. He ran third in this handicap.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

EDITED: Deleted this post. It was just a post with the pictures, but you managed to fix it, so it's unnecessary. 

Beautiful horse!


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

wolffeathers said:


> EDITED: Deleted this post. It was just a post with the pictures, but you managed to fix it, so it's unnecessary.
> 
> Beautiful horse!


Thanks, and thanks for the help.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

DW's current career.










He retired from racing sound at 5 yrs old after 30 starts, 7 wins, 114 speed index, one track record. We retired him because he had few choices for races. He could run in wide open races locally against very tough competition wich he would have won some but purses would be tiny or he could go to claiming races and we would have lost him(lots of people trying to buy him at the time). Soundness is not the only reason to retire a race horse.


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