# Why would someone like this even carry a sidearm?



## Shrek

One of the locals here carries a Smith and Wesson 9mm with decock safety and was complaining of the round jamming when he drew it and jacked a round into the chamber.

Our friend the gunsmith checked his weapon and magazine showing him a blunting of his magazine and used his spare magazine as he was carrying the same model how the magazine was his feed problem.

The guy with the damaged magazine went to his truck for his back up magazine and the smith jacked a few rounds through it and told him he had some magazines he could sell him or possibly polish and fix his old one.

The reason though I wonder why this guy even carries a sidearm is when the gunsmith gave him his weapon back he didn't chamber a round and decock it.

When I noticed and mentioned it, he told me he never chambered a round in a semi he carried.

When I carry a semiautomatic I always pipe a round and top off my magazine as do most people I know.


When I asked the gunsmith after the guy left if he knew a reason he said he didn't but he knew if the boy ever snapped and drew on one of us we would have a second or so drop on him.

What logical reason would there be in holstering a semi without one piped?


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## simi-steading

I know people that carry with no round in the chamber too, and I can't figure out why, or get them to understand that's not very wise. A couple say they feel safer that way since they know they can't accidentally fire a round... 

All my carrys I rack one, then fill the mag, and then I lower the hammer and leave the safety off. All my carry guns, the first round is DA, after that it's single... I know I'm always ready to go....

But then, the guy you are talking about is carrying something unreliable.. even more of an issue than not having one racked..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

one word FEAR he is afraid of the gun most likely from unfamiliarity 

they hear about so and so 2 counties over that shot himself in the leg , they blame the gun or don't take into consideration the actual circumstances 

bollybob shot himself in the leg in his car in the dark after he pulled his gun out and racked one into the chamber while driving , because he was passing into the Bad side of town and then tried to reholster while wearing his seatbelt in the dark while driving ,oh and billybob besides having the average room temp IQ was known buy the guys at the range as that idiot who won't get his finger out of the trigger guard and muzzle sweeps everyone but always has the range to himself a few minutes after arriving.

but Billybob is Jimbobs 2nd cousin twice removed and Jimbob got the story from cousin Bobbiesue , who explained it as "did you hear about cousin Billybob you know your moms cousin Billbob seniors oldest got shot , he was just driving along in his car and his gun went off shot him right in the butox" and she had heard it direct from aunt peggysue so it must have been just that.

had your guy at the gun smith , been shooting enough to use each of his magazines a few times each in a monthly practice session he would have figured out he had a bad one on his own with just a tiny bit of thought.

you can't fix stupid but sometimes you can head it off before someone gets hurt and your gun store guy has reasoned that he can't get shot by his gun if there isn't one in the chamber , because he is the smart one in the family


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## Fishindude

I am one of those guys who carry's a semi-auto handgun with a full mag, safety on 'fire' and nothing in the pipe for safety. Prefer the semi-auto over a revolver for that reason. A kid or someone not knowledgeable with firearms can pick up a revolver, pull the trigger and it goes boom, while an unchambered semi-auto requires a bit of gun knowledge to rack a round and make it hot.

I don't live in fear of the boogey man. In reality our chances of an accidental discharge and hurting yourself or an unintended bystander is far greater. In event of the boogey man, I can rack a round and be hot in a very swift motion as the gun is unholstered and pointed. Being aware of your surroundings and situation is probably more important to your safety than a quick draw / fire.


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## simi-steading

Fishindude said:


> I am one of those guys who carry's a semi-auto handgun with a full mag, safety on 'fire' and nothing in the pipe for safety. Prefer the semi-auto over a revolver for that reason. A kid or someone not knowledgeable with firearms can pick up a revolver, pull the trigger and it goes boom, while an unchambered semi-auto requires a bit of gun knowledge to rack a round and make it hot.
> 
> I don't live in fear of the boogey man. In reality our chances of an accidental discharge and hurting yourself or an unintended bystander is far greater. In event of the boogey man, I can rack a round and be hot in a very swift motion as the gun is unholstered and pointed. Being aware of your surroundings and situation is probably more important to your safety than a quick draw / fire.


hhhmm.. "a kid or someone else pick up my gun..." That ain't gonna happen... If it does, there's some really bad things happening, like not controlling your sidearm.. 

And as far as being ready fast after racking a round, I've seen plenty of video's of store robberies where a good guy (usually an off duty cop or similar) Pulls a gun and shoots the bad guy... and you never see them rack a round, and many times if they had too, it would be too late.. 

If you don't have a round chambered, you're pretty much right there with Barney digging for his "bullet" in his shirt pocket..


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## Fishindude

*hhhmm.. "a kid or someone else pick up my gun..." That ain't gonna happen... If it does, there's some really bad things happening, like not controlling your sidearm.. *
So do you shower with your gun, swim with your gun, water ski with your gun? What about folks that don't carry but choose to keep a personal protection firearm in their vehicle? You get the point ... at some point everyone's gun is out of reach.



*If you don't have a round chambered, you're pretty much right there with Barney digging for his "bullet" in his shirt pocket..*
Give me a break. A slide action semi auto can be racked and chambered in a matter of a second or two. No comparison to taking a bullet from your pocket and loading. As stated, I don't live in fear of the boogey man, and situation awareness will keep you much safer than a quick draw.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I think what Semi is saying and what I know I am saying is that If I am not in control of my gun then it is secured where no one else unauthorized has access to it , that leaving the gun lay unsecured where unauthorized persons have access to it with a mag full and not one in the chamber is not a very good insurance against a negligent discharge or unauthorized use.

I am ok with people who want to carry with an empty chamber , that is a personal decision with their comfort level and up to them I won't berate them for it , but I ask that they still treat the gun as if it was loaded one in the chamber and topped off.

it's always the unloaded ones that have accidents 

as for holsters , it is a part of the guns safety and should be used as such


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## Cabin Fever

Yes, it's a personal decision. There is no "best" way to carry a semi-auto pistol. There is a best way for you and there is a best way for me.

I carry my 1911 in Condition One - "cocked and locked."


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## Cornhusker

I used to be a little on the fence about this issue until a guy on one of the gun forums posted a true story.
Apparently he was walking a small dog, had a concealed semi auto on him, empty chamber.
A larger dog, I don't remember what kind, but it was a Pit Bull, Rottweiler or one of the more aggressive breeds ran out and attacked the smaller dog.
The guy tried to grab his dog and the bigger dog latched on to his arm.
He pulled his gun, but had an empty chamber, and couldn't rack one in as the dog was chewing his other hand and arm.
An off duty deputy happened to live right there and ran out and shot the dog.
The first guy suffered some pretty bad damage to his arm as I recall, nerves and tendons and such.
In effect, he had an empty gun.
Now I always carry one in the pipe and keep my booger hooks off the bang switch.:thumb:


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## simi-steading

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I think what Semi is saying and what I know I am saying is that If I am not in control of my gun then it is secured where no one else unauthorized has access to it , that leaving the gun lay unsecured where unauthorized persons have access to it with a mag full and not one in the chamber is not a very good insurance against a negligent discharge or unauthorized use.


Thanks, yes, that is what I am trying to say, is that if someone else is playing with my gun without my knowledge, then it is unresponsible ownership...


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## simi-steading

Cornhusker said:


> I used to be a little on the fence about this issue until a guy on one of the gun forums posted a true story.
> Apparently he was walking a small dog, had a concealed semi auto on him, empty chamber.
> A larger dog, I don't remember what kind, but it was a Pit Bull, Rottweiler or one of the more aggressive breeds ran out and attacked the smaller dog.
> The guy tried to grab his dog and the bigger dog latched on to his arm.
> He pulled his gun, but had an empty chamber, and couldn't rack one in as the dog was chewing his other hand and arm.
> An off duty deputy happened to live right there and ran out and shot the dog.
> The first guy suffered some pretty bad damage to his arm as I recall, nerves and tendons and such.
> In effect, he had an empty gun.
> Now I always carry one in the pipe and keep my booger hooks off the bang switch.:thumb:


That makes me think of other types instances, say like getting into your car in a parking lot and someone comes up and grabs you to carjack you or rob you... If they have your arm, you're not racking a round. Even if it's your shooting arm they have, you can still reach around behind your back with your weak hand and and draw your weapon...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

my neighbor 4 houses down was walking her **** hound as she did every day she was about 2 blocks to the south when a Rottweiler came running out from behind the house she was walking in front off and tore into the **** hound who was one of the best leash trained **** hounds I have ever seen.

she had no weapon , luckily for her the dog was to busy chewing her **** hound that help arrived in before she had any life threatening injuries she has scars on both hands and arms and some tendon damage. her dog died.

at the 4th of July parade I sat next to a young lady that was all bandaged up , she should have been riding in the parade on horse back with her friends but she was mauled by a dog 2 weeks before and this was one of her first outings , the realty sad part is she was the 4th person bitten by that dog.

there is a reason to train your dog to walk on the leash in your weak hand so you can still get to your weapon with your strong hand.


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## beenaround

I never have one in the chamber and do it for safety reasons. HOWEVER I never treat any weapon as if it isn't loaded and cocked.

One of my favorites is the SA XD45. Not only does it have some nice safety features it very difficult to chamber, the slide is very stiff. The Glock 20 I also carry is IMO way to easy to chamber and with no safety except for the very long pull. I like the gun and carry it often.

Been around guns for a long time and because of that I know anything can happen. I take what precautions I can to make sure nothing happens unless I want it to.


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## beenaround

simi-steading said:


> That makes me think of other types instances, say like getting into your car in a parking lot and someone comes up and grabs you to carjack you or rob you... If they have your arm, you're not racking a round. Even if it's your shooting arm they have, you can still reach around behind your back with your weak hand and and draw your weapon...


A face full from a 45 is like getting hit straight on with a hammer. The person would be senseless and a follow up blow render them unconscious. It's called being pistol whipped and you don't have to go through something a kin to a colostomy by the law. Firing a shot, as traumatic as that is is nothing to the degrees people go through after the incident and the words used to describe the incident had better be well rehearsed. 

You have to live with it after. What if you could avoid years in the legal system by not firing a shot, would that be worth it?

We have a right to shoot, doesn't mean the law doesn't have the right to prosecute and they do, doesn't cost them anything, just another day at what they call work.

Some bum wants to rob, don't let them compound the act by robbing us of years and costs.


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## TripleD

Fishindude said:


> *hhhmm.. "a kid or someone else pick up my gun..." That ain't gonna happen... If it does, there's some really bad things happening, like not controlling your sidearm.. *
> So do you shower with your gun, swim with your gun, water ski with your gun? What about folks that don't carry but choose to keep a personal protection firearm in their vehicle? You get the point ... at some point everyone's gun is out of reach.
> 
> 
> 
> *If you don't have a round chambered, you're pretty much right there with Barney digging for his "bullet" in his shirt pocket..*
> Give me a break. A slide action semi auto can be racked and chambered in a matter of a second or two. No comparison to taking a bullet from your pocket and loading. As stated, I don't live in fear of the boogey man, and situation awareness will keep you much safer than a quick draw.


That second or two might be the difference between you living and your death . Don't ask me how I know !!!!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

beenaround said:


> A face full from a 45 is like getting hit straight on with a hammer. The person would be senseless and a follow up blow render them unconscious. It's called being pistol whipped and you don't have to go through something a kin to a colostomy by the law. Firing a shot, as traumatic as that is is nothing to the degrees people go through after the incident and the words used to describe the incident had better be well rehearsed.
> 
> You have to live with it after. What if you could avoid years in the legal system by not firing a shot, would that be worth it?
> 
> We have a right to shoot, doesn't mean the law doesn't have the right to prosecute and they do, doesn't cost them anything, just another day at what they call work.
> 
> Some bum wants to rob, don't let them compound the act by robbing us of years and costs.



depending on your location this may be more or less of a concern , if your justified in places that respect your right to defend yourself 

the handgun is the equalizer for a reason it gives a frail old woman the same punch as a body building young man so blindly recommending that you engage hand to hand with an assailant when given a better option for the individual exists is unwise , each person should instead research and know the options and decide the best one for them.


when I was in the 7th grade we had a problem student , we were playing soft ball in gym class the pitcher a small 7th grader maybe a hundred pounds was pitching he was not trained in any martial arts just a small town kid , he hit the batter the problem student with a inside pitch not an intentional hit , the larger 7th grade boy problem student charged the mound bat still in hand and both hands on the bat swung back over his head and swung down at the pitcher, the pitcher had the strength to stop the bat with his pitching hand , it broke his hand and wrist but stopped the bat from what could have been a lethal blow to the head , if an untrained 7th grader can stop a bat in a full swing , yes breaking his hand and wrist , then getting that close isn't a good idea . and should be only considered if there is no other option or you are trained in martial arts.

I was standing in line to bat as we did not have benches , just 4 bases , and bare spot in the grass where the pitcher pinched from that we called a mound if you hit a foul ball it went into the corn field . I saw it all with my own eyes so it is not an exaggerated story , the gym teacher was the umpire and was there to stop the problem student and toss him in a head lock and drag him off to the office before it went any further I think that may have been the first time the sheriff was ever called to the school for a student fight , the problem student was expelled


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## Shrek

In this state pistol whipping within reasonable limit is legal while beating someone with a baseball bat isn't because a bat counts as an improvised weapon and a licensed sidearm is a legal weapon.


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## Laura Zone 5

I'm moving to Florida in a month. The house I have rented is on the river.....
I will carry when I walk my Jack Russell Terriers, because I do NOT want my girls to be gator food.

I am not comfortable with my weapon, yet.
But, I have no choice (single)
So I will find a range when I get to Fla. and just go practice......


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## Chuck R.

They used to call it "Israeli" carry, more commonly called Condition 3 and we used to carry that way back when I was an enlisted MP. I carry condition 1 (Chambered).

Interesting story though. There's one guy in our IDPA club that I'd competed with for years, and taken several shooting classes with that carries Condition 3 and I never even noticed it. One stage when I was his SO, I saw him do an overhand slide rack while drawing on the first target. I asked him about it when the stage was done, figuring he had either forgot to chamber a round, had a missfeed, or bad round. He said he always carried his pistol with an empty chamber due to having kids at home. Racking the slide was just part of his draw stroke. I've got to admit, it wasn't hurting his 1st shot time one bit, he was just about as fat on the 1st target as everybody else, and for years he'd been finishing in the top 5 or so shooters. 

I don't think it's "tactically sound" though, mainly because depending on the circumstances you may never get a chance to chamber a round before you need it. You may already be grappling with an adversary, or have your support hand occupied. I've trained on one handed reloads/stoppage drills and they'd be extremely difficult if in physical contact. So for me, it's a chambered round and topped of magazine.

Chuck


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## joejeep92

I always have one in the chamber. The majority of armed altercations happen at close range with very little warning, you are starting with a disadvantage because you have to draw the weapon now why compound that by having to load it? Armed altercations, either with two or four-legged adversaries are stressful times and I don't like to rely on having that two seconds you speak of to load. If the firearm is out of my control that may change but while it is on my person I will have one in the chamber, ready to go. I also practice both strong and weak side one-handed shooting so if the time comes I am injured prior to or during an altercation I can still have some semblance of a chance of coming out upright. I practice one handed reloading as well but it is very difficult, again adding a difficulty I don't need to an already stressful and difficult situation.


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## Jolly

I think the empty chamber works best with a single-action auto like the Colt 1911.

I see no reason for it with more modern guns like a Glock or Sig.


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## ksfarmer68

I do not carry with a round in the chamber. Main reason is i carry a safe action in appendix. Its the most comfortable position for me and the gun is much easier to conceal. If you train with having to rack the slide on drawing you will add about .5 seconds to your time. Could carrying in condition 3 be a problem in a emergency? Sure but its really all about preference.


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## Targe

> A face full from a 45 is like getting hit straight on with a hammer. The person would be senseless and a follow up blow render them unconscious. It's called being pistol whipped and you don't have to go through something a kin to a colostomy by the law. Firing a shot, as traumatic as that is is nothing to the degrees people go through after the incident and the words used to describe the incident had better be well rehearsed.


Although I agree that a gun can be used as an impact weapon, it's not an ideal design for such use and more importantly I see no reason to plan on using it thusly. If the plan is to "pistol whip" someone, then just don't carry a gun at all; instead, carry a hammer, a nightstick, etc. something with a handle and which is designed to be used for striking. Of course, as Shrek pointed out, oddly enough, some localities may penalize for using an impact weapon (or tool or sports implement, i.e. a baseball bat) whereas a legally carried gun (used to strike someone) would not. 

Before I was old enough to carry concealed or even legally own a handgun, I had to walk to work through a rather rough neighborhood populated by...um..."indigenous people". I carried (among other things) a ball peen hammer that I wore in a hammer loop on my belt. Although not the best weapon, it was 'something better than nothing' and as a striking weapon, many times better than a handgun.

I'm not advocating carrying a hammer to a gunfight...but if you're not planning on shooting someone with your gun, there are cheaper and more effective impact weapons out there. Striking someone with a gun can lead to all sorts of bad things, including, but not limited to, having the gun taken from you by someone who is bigger/stronger/faster. Retention of your firearm usually includes shielding your gun from being grabbed because you stuck it out there too far- and striking someone with a gun puts it within his reach (if you don't knock him out). And guys don't always fall down from the "pistol whipping" kung fu as delivered by the notorious Earp bros. any more than a kick to the groin is guaranteed to end a fight.

On a parting note...the practice of "pistol whipping" actually began with large, single shot flintlock and percussion cap pistols such as carried by cavalry troops in the 1600's - early 1800's. They were very large handguns by today's standards; in fact, they were usually carried in holsters that were slung on/across or in front of the saddles, more like scabbards than holsters, really. In addition, they were often equipped with a large brass or iron ball or knob at the butt of the grip. This was so that the pistol, once fired and if no time for reloading, could be used as a club by holding the barrel as the handle and swinging the pistol to strike with the large ball/knob on the end of the pistol's grip. Likewise, the old Colt SAA pistols, often with barrels of 7" or more, were much more "handy" when similarly grasped by the long barrel and used as a club. Conversely, there's not really any barrel on a .45 Auto to grab so you don't generate nearly the force. 

But "pistol whipping" is an entertaining topic.


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## tamarackreg

If that's how a guy feels safe and comfortable that's how he feels. 

Hard to argue with the safety aspect of carrying that way. 

Smile and be glad he's on our side.


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## JeepHammer

*When the only tool you have in the box is a hammer,
You tend to look at every problem as a nail.*

16 years in the Marine Corps, 14 in special operations.
Master firearms instructor.
Current civilian concealed carry instructor.

Not that it will matter to the 'Hot Carry' bunch,
But when I do carry, which isn't often,
I don't have one in the chamber, 
And I don teach to carry one chambered.

I teach proper CIVILIAN carry, and I make sure to drill into them proper handgun procedure, taking about 1/10 second to chamber a round on the rare occasions the firearm is needed.

I also teach a revolver is much more practical to carry than a semi-auto,
Revolvers are also more dependable than a semi-auto...

Now, before the arguments get started,
One has to remember you are 800 times more likely to shoot your self or a friend or family member than a criminal threatening your life...

Any layer of safety you can build into your procedure might save the life is someone you care about,
Or keep you from misreading a situation.

Make no mistake, no matter what you have read...
CIVILIAN CARRY IS NOT COMBAT!
Combat is clear and defined, shoot first and ask questions later.

I've heard all the stories, the so called 'Experts',
The ones that won't keep a finger along side the frame instead of on the trigger,
The ones that insist a chambered round that shoots himself or 'Accedentlly' shoots a friend or family member.

I still haven't seen any of those so called 'Experts' that can do a FOF (Friend Or Foe) drill as fast as I can, and most have 'Frendly' targets hit...

If you shoot 'Frendlies' in a drill, when the pressure isn't on,
Then what is that trigger happy SOB going to do when the chips are down and the adrenlin is at a record high?

I've carried on and off for 45 years,
I've had 'Accidental' discharges, the safety procedures kept anyone from getting hurt,
(Including having a 'Decock' fire the round under he hammer)

COMMON SENSE.
You are NOT law enforcement,
Protecting people that are cornered is one thing,
Pushing a bad situation is something entirely different...

When the hair on the back of your neck stands up, 
The very best thing you can do is back out of the situation if you can.
The best outcome is to NOT get into a gunfight.
You win EVERY TIME.

The one thing about a gunfight is, you can't ever predict who's going to get hit.
I know this first hand.
You 'Believe' you are in the 'Right' and you won't be the one that gets shot,
But that's not the way it happens...

Then there is the aftermath,
Fully expect to be charged with homicide.
Fully expect to wind up with a MASSIVE defense lawyer bill.
Fully expect to be sued by the family of the person that got shot in a civil trial.

The police are a prime example of no proper training.
Shooting unarmed people right and left, but they will get a pass and have insurance to pay for a lawyer...

*IF* these police were trained properly, they wouldn't default to a firearm instantly...
If they knew some hand to hand, had proper training in 'Shoot/No Shoot' situations, there would be a lot less civilians getting shot,
AND,
Those same police get TONS more training than the average concealed carry person!

So, before you push a bad situation, 
Before you run around with a side arm cocked & locked,
Think through the potential ramifications...
Get and refresh your training on a regular basis, every couple of years,
Pick an instructor/trainer that DOES NOT advocate drawing the firearm on the outset of a problem,
And advises you on the political/legal ramifications...

If your instructor DOES NOT cover the political/legal ramifications,
Then run like hell and find an instructor with some common sense!
You WILL face ramifications in the event you even draw the firearm,
And you had better be ROCK SOLID if you discharge that firearm.

You can't recall a bullet once fired, and without proper training to assess the surroundings/situation, you are responsible for that decision and for any damage that bullet does.


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## Chuck R.

JeepHammer said:


> *When the only tool you have in the box is a hammer,*
> *You tend to look at every problem as a nail.*
> 
> 16 years in the Marine Corps, 14 in special operations.
> Master firearms instructor.
> Current civilian concealed carry instructor.
> 
> Not that it will matter to the 'Hot Carry' bunch,
> But when I do carry, which isn't often,
> I don't have one in the chamber,
> And I don teach to carry one chambered.
> 
> I teach proper CIVILIAN carry, and I make sure to drill into them proper handgun procedure, taking about 1/10 second to chamber a round on the rare occasions the firearm is needed.
> 
> I also teach a revolver is much more practical to carry than a semi-auto,
> Revolvers are also more dependable than a semi-auto...
> 
> Now, before the arguments get started,
> One has to remember you are 800 times more likely to shoot your self or a friend or family member than a criminal threatening your life...
> 
> Any layer of safety you can build into your procedure might save the life is someone you care about,
> Or keep you from misreading a situation.
> 
> Make no mistake, no matter what you have read...
> CIVILIAN CARRY IS NOT COMBAT!
> Combat is clear and defined, shoot first and ask questions later.
> 
> I've heard all the stories, the so called 'Experts',
> The ones that won't keep a finger along side the frame instead of on the trigger,
> The ones that insist a chambered round that shoots himself or 'Accedentlly' shoots a friend or family member.
> 
> I still haven't seen any of those so called 'Experts' that can do a FOF (Friend Or Foe) drill as fast as I can, and most have 'Frendly' targets hit...
> 
> If you shoot 'Frendlies' in a drill, when the pressure isn't on,
> Then what is that trigger happy SOB going to do when the chips are down and the adrenlin is at a record high?
> 
> I've carried on and off for 45 years,
> I've had 'Accidental' discharges, the safety procedures kept anyone from getting hurt,
> (Including having a 'Decock' fire the round under he hammer)
> 
> COMMON SENSE.
> You are NOT law enforcement,
> Protecting people that are cornered is one thing,
> Pushing a bad situation is something entirely different...
> 
> When the hair on the back of your neck stands up,
> The very best thing you can do is back out of the situation if you can.
> The best outcome is to NOT get into a gunfight.
> You win EVERY TIME.
> 
> The one thing about a gunfight is, you can't ever predict who's going to get hit.
> I know this first hand.
> You 'Believe' you are in the 'Right' and you won't be the one that gets shot,
> But that's not the way it happens...
> 
> Then there is the aftermath,
> Fully expect to be charged with homicide.
> Fully expect to wind up with a MASSIVE defense lawyer bill.
> Fully expect to be sued by the family of the person that got shot in a civil trial.
> 
> The police are a prime example of no proper training.
> Shooting unarmed people right and left, but they will get a pass and have insurance to pay for a lawyer...
> 
> *IF* these police were trained properly, they wouldn't default to a firearm instantly...
> If they knew some hand to hand, had proper training in 'Shoot/No Shoot' situations, there would be a lot less civilians getting shot,
> AND,
> Those same police get TONS more training than the average concealed carry person!
> 
> So, before you push a bad situation,
> Before you run around with a side arm cocked & locked,
> Think through the potential ramifications...
> Get and refresh your training on a regular basis, every couple of years,
> Pick an instructor/trainer that DOES NOT advocate drawing the firearm on the outset of a problem,
> And advises you on the political/legal ramifications...
> 
> If your instructor DOES NOT cover the political/legal ramifications,
> Then run like hell and find an instructor with some common sense!
> You WILL face ramifications in the event you even draw the firearm,
> And you had better be ROCK SOLID if you discharge that firearm.
> 
> You can't recall a bullet once fired, and without proper training to assess the surroundings/situation, you are responsible for that decision and for any damage that bullet does.


So to sum up your thoughts you don't feel the average civilian is capable of carrying a handgun with a loaded chamber? 

Is that the gist??




> I teach proper CIVILIAN carry, and I make sure to drill into them proper handgun procedure, taking about 1/10 second to chamber a round on the rare occasions the firearm is needed.


and IF they're already in contact, how do you suggest they draw and chamber a round? 

Chuck


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## JeepHammer

First off,
Instant Jepardy is so rare it's a thing of myth.

Secondly, 
'In Contact' is a military term.
You aren't in the military, this isn't the middle east...

Third,
Armed confrontations come in two basic types,
1. Ambush,
2. Very close range.

Lets consider #2 first, since this is the fall back of every 'Hot Carry' argument I've ever heard...

These are absloutly verifiable Justice Department/FBI stastitics,

Civilian shootings over 3 yards (9 feet), result in a 98% miss rate.
That's only 2 rounds in every 100 fired actually hit anyone.
Seems incredible but it's true.

Shooting a target 10 feet away is a piece of cake at the gun range,
When BOTH people are moving, trying NOT to get shot, you rarely hit anything.

The results are the same when you move back to 5 yards (15 feet) for police.

In the unlikely event you turn a corner and there is someone with a gun in your face,
And you are dumb enough to grab for a concealed/holstered firearm,
You have ZERO chance of clearing the holster,
Your best bet is to use hand to hand, control the weapon,
and empty, disable, or deploy some other means of winning this most unlikely situation.

Most 'Bad Guys' make two mistakes,
Like the 'Hot Carry' guys, they have seen too many movies.
They like to talk instead of shoot,
And they are WAY too close to the intended victim.

In this most UNLIKELY situation, a KNIFE would be much easier to deploy, and more effective than a concealed, holstered handgun.

Your best bet would be to have one hand in your pocket on a REVOLVER that will fire more than ONCE while in a coat pocket,
And to just to seemingly comply with the 'Mugger' until you found an opening to either escape or control the 'Muggers' handgun and respond with whatever you choose.

There is a reason why SERIOUS combat troops have at least two knives handy, and it's not for peeling potatoes.

COMPLY and escape is usually the best option, refering back to rule one of gun fighting,
The Gunfight you DO NOT get into is the one you win every time.

--------

Back to #1 from above, The Ambush.

In all cases of ambush, there is NO WARNING someone is about to open fire...
Unless you are the FIRST PERSON HIT, you have time to put a round under the hammer.
Period, no exceptions.

If you are the first person hit, to date, first person has survived initial contact with an ambush shooter, so the point is moot if you had one in the chamber or not.

School shooters didn't give warning,
Theater shooters didn't give warning,
Mass street shooters didn't give warning.

1/10 to 1 second would have given you extra time to assess the situation, locate targets, check backstop, ect. and wouldn't have slowed you down in the least,
In fact, identifying the targets and that extra split second to assess backstop, number of targets, how they were armed,
And your OWN cover/aim/trigger control would make you much better appraised of the situation.

The ONLY shooting there was any warning was the grade school since the guy had to break a SECURITY glass door to enter the building,
Which had some of the office staff been armed, they would have had plenty of time to chamber a round and blow that crazy SOB back into the parking lot...

I've been in three CIVILIAN situations where I would have even considered drawing a handgun, and only ONE TIME in 45 years of carrying (on and off) did I actually draw the handgun...
It's still a 370 million to one chance every day you will be in a situation where a handgun *MIGHT* be deployed,
And that's only if the circumstances are just right, many times there are other, more attractive/effective options....

And lets not forget, you are 800 times more likely to shoot yourself, a friend or family member than you are an armed assailant...
Cocked & Locked makes that even more likely.


----------



## JeepHammer

Chuck R. said:


> So to sum up your thoughts you don't feel the average civilian is capable of carrying a handgun with a loaded chamber?
> 
> Is that the gist??




'Average', No, not by any means.
It's currently 800 to 1 you will shoot yourself, a friend or family member rather than an armed assailant.

The fact that 'Average' people are gunning down themselves, friends and family members at a rate of 800 to every 1 armed assailant that makes the point pretty clear.

And if this scared, trigger happy stupidity continues you can count on MUCH tougher gun laws to control the stupid, scared trigger happy people shooting themselves, friends and family members at a rate of 800 to 1.



> and IF they're already in contact, how do you suggest they draw and chamber a round?





> Chuck


Covered in the previous post...
IN CONTACT is a military term, this is CIVILIAN CARRY.

AGAIN, your 'In Contact' is 800 times more likely to be a family member or friend, or your own body...
And again, it speaks to the mentality of the trigger happy 'Cocked & Locked' bunch that can't properly identify friend from foe...


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

where are you getting the 800 to 1 ratio from ?

that would indicate that for every months worth of Armed citizen articles in the American rifleman magazine there would be 8000-9600 people shot by themselves or family members a year of that would be 96,000 to 115,200 that would mean that even with an 80% survival rate on gun shots that between 19,200 and 23,040 people would die each year of accidental gun shot wounds 

and that would be just the number of people needed to fill out the ratio with the articles that make the armed citizen column 

I think that the numbers you have may have been liberalized counting every single suicide in the numbers , they like to do that because about 15,000 people commit suicide with a gun each year.

anti gunners like to toss around the number more than 30,000 gun deaths each year , but if you look at the real numbers provided by the CDC you will see that the only way they can even get close to that 30k number is to add all the outright homicides , where there was no accident , person A intended to fire on person B , and all the suicides where person A intended on shooting them selves and the number is still suspect.


sometimes the numbers get very skewed by how they like to record them , the dr was just talking to us about a vaccine it has to date 17 deaths attributed with it , in about 12 years but he said be very careful with that number because any person who has the vaccine and dies withing 30 days of the vaccine being given is a death attributed to that vaccine meaning that if you walk out the door of the clinic after getting the vaccine and get run over by a bus you are vaccine death #18


if a person doesn't want to carry with one in the chamber that is their decision , how every they want to carry is fine as long as it is safe the way they do it , but I don't find the numbers your giving very viable in the believability department the math just doesn't shake out


----------



## Chuck R.

Jeephammer,

All I can say is WOW, and thanks for the revealing posts, your disdain for your fellow gun owners/ CCWs is pretty apparent, which is surprising for someone who claims to be a &#8220;master firearms trainer&#8221; and CCW instructor. Did you get these stats right off some anti-gun site or what?

I retired from the Army after 23 years, attended a police academy and spent some time as a reserve police officer. In addition, I take a couple SD classes a year. You&#8217;re the first &#8220;trainer&#8221; I&#8217;ve ever heard actually recommend Condition 3 due to the reasons you state. &#8220;Contact&#8221; is my choice of words, but it also implies the civilian definition which means touching. I&#8217;ll simplify if for you, how do you propose that someone carrying in condition 3, chamber a round single handedly if both hands are not available, do to being in contact, holding a child etc?

To sum it up after having read some of your posts, I seriously doubt you know what you&#8217;re talking about so I'm done debating with you. 

Chuck


----------



## tarbe

JeepHammer said:


> AGAIN, your 'In Contact' is 800 times more likely to be a family member or friend, or your own body...
> And again, *it speaks to the mentality of the trigger happy 'Cocked & Locked' bunch that can't properly identify friend from foe.*..


I am amazed I have not shot a family member, friend, or myself...seeing as I have been carrying condition one (including 1911 cocked and locked) since 1976.

You do realize the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked, right?

I find the bolded quote above hyperbolic and offensive. But I guess opinions are like things covered by :flameproofundies:.


----------



## JeepHammer

Pete, that would include people that shot someone with a legal firearm, under the influnce, ------ off in an argument with a friend or family member, shooting a family member they didn't expect to be present, ect.
Or shot themselves with a legally owned handgun.

That assumption would be correct, since it's still a legally carried handgun that is used.

Most of them get away with it, since 'Fear Of Life Or Bodily Injury' is all that is required for a criminal defense.
You just say you were scared and that's all some places take to let you off 'Easy'

CDC reports about 31,000 gun shot victims a week in this country on the mandatory reporting of GSW treatment...
Which is almost exactly what NHI and insurance companies report.

30,000 road rage shootings alone most years...
Doesn't matter if there are any hits or not, it's still 30,000 illegal shootings a year on average.

That's why its such a big issue for insurance and health care providers, and getting the attention of congress & the white house.

---------

Chuck,
It's not up to me, it's simply facts.
What you 'Believe' is up to you,

1/4 of the population denies evloution,
Several million swear man never walked on the moon,
About 2/3 of the planet believe in an invisible old man in the sky,
About the same number believe that invisible old man will end the world in the most horrible way possible... On his whims....

There is a measurable percentage of the earths population that believes the holocost never happened,
There is a measurable percentage of the US population that believes flouride in water is a mind control device,

Just for the record,
Anyone trained in handgun tactics would call 'Physical Contact' just that.
Police would call it 'Assult' or 'Battery', which makes me question your 'Credentials' listed.

'In Contact' is a military term meaning just that, you have made contact with your enemy or objective,

Since you are talking taking someone's life, technical terms and a through knowledge of the LAWS on the subject are mandatory since you ARE going to face a lot of hard questions...

I don't teach my students to 'Panic Shoot' everyone that bumps into them, gets too close, or just gives them a dirty look.

That's why I teach my people to run like hell when an 'Instructor' doesn't get into the legal ramafications, how to word your 'Statment' in the event you have to pull the weapon, or fire the weapon.

Believe what ever you want to...
Tin foil hats are cheap!


----------



## JeepHammer

tarbe said:


> I am amazed I have not shot a family member, friend, or myself...seeing as I have been carrying condition one (including 1911 cocked and locked) since 1976.
> 
> You do realize the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked, right?
> 
> I find the bolded quote above hyperbolic and offensive. But I guess opinions are like things covered by :flameproofundies:.


I guess that's why carrying a cocked & locked side arm of any kind outside of a combat zone is a court martial offense in the military to this day...
Because it's so safe?


----------



## Chuck R.

JeepHammer said:


> Pete, that would include people that shot someone with a legal firearm, under the influnce, ------ off in an argument with a friend or family member, shooting a family member they didn't expect to be present, ect.
> Or shot themselves with a legally owned handgun.
> 
> That assumption would be correct, since it's still a legally carried handgun that is used.
> 
> Most of them get away with it, since 'Fear Of Life Or Bodily Injury' is all that is required for a criminal defense.
> You just say you were scared and that's all some places take to let you off 'Easy'
> 
> CDC reports about 31,000 gun shot victims a week in this country on the mandatory reporting of GSW treatment...
> Which is almost exactly what NHI and insurance companies report.
> 
> 30,000 road rage shootings alone most years...
> Doesn't matter if there are any hits or not, it's still 30,000 illegal shootings a year on average.
> 
> That's why its such a big issue for insurance and health care providers, and getting the attention of congress & the white house.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Chuck,
> It's not up to me, it's simply facts.
> What you 'Believe' is up to you,
> 
> 1/4 of the population denies evloution,
> Several million swear man never walked on the moon,
> About 2/3 of the planet believe in an invisible old man in the sky,
> About the same number believe that invisible old man will end the world in the most horrible way possible... On his whims....
> 
> There is a measurable percentage of the earths population that believes the holocost never happened,
> There is a measurable percentage of the US population that believes flouride in water is a mind control device,
> 
> Just for the record,
> Anyone trained in handgun tactics would call 'Physical Contact' just that.
> Police would call it 'Assult' or 'Battery', which makes me question your 'Credentials' listed.
> 
> 'In Contact' is a military term meaning just that, you have made contact with your enemy or objective,
> 
> Since you are talking taking someone's life, technical terms and a through knowledge of the LAWS on the subject are mandatory since you ARE going to face a lot of hard questions...
> 
> I don't teach my students to 'Panic Shoot' everyone that bumps into them, gets too close, or just gives them a dirty look.
> 
> That's why I teach my people to run like hell when an 'Instructor' doesn't get into the legal ramafications, how to word your 'Statment' in the event you have to pull the weapon, or fire the weapon.
> 
> Believe what ever you want to...
> Tin foil hats are cheap!


Again, without the semantics, can you answer the question? 

Since you profess to train your students to carry in condition 3, how do you train them to put their weapon in condition 1 or 0 when they cannot use both hands??? Other than your answer so far that the possibility that they ever have to is so far removed it&#8217;s a &#8220;myth&#8221; (your words) therefore they&#8217;ll never have to. How do you teach them to do it? You know, just in case. 

Secondly, your simple facts


> firearm deaths, Now, before the arguments get started, One has to remember you are 800 times more likely to shoot your self or a friend or family member than a criminal threatening your life...,


 actually have no bearing whatsoever on the question of Condition 3 carry VS. 1 or zero since none of the stats verify the actual condition of the weapon prior to firing. They could have just as easily been Condition 4 as Condition 1 or Zero. 

This speaks &#8220;Jack Chit&#8221; to your statement of &#8221; AGAIN, your


> In Contact' is 800 times more likely to be a family member or friend, or your own body...And again, it speaks to the mentality of the trigger happy 'Cocked & Locked' bunch that can't properly identify friend from foe...


---, does the above have to do with Condition 1 (or zero) VS. Condition 3 carry???? 

Now instead of rambling on somewhat incoherently, can you try to answer the question without delving into what other instructors may or may not have taught and the use of bogus figures that don&#8217;t in any way shape or form support your argument? 

Chuck


----------



## JeepHammer

Well, you are dead set on what you 'Believe' instead of what's actually going on,
So there is no discussion in you.
Good luck, and try not to shoot anyone that can sue you...

I teach the same way everyone else does when the program is aimed at civilians,
If its a one handed draw/fire you are after,
Then you simply recommend a double action revolver.

For more than a century, an empty chamber has been the 'Safety',
And even with an empty chamber, its still 5 to 7 rounds available,
Even in the unlikely event you can't use one hand, the handgun is still IMMEDATELY available.

Now, the 15 to 30 round, double stack high volume semi auto guys will rant and rave that 5 rounds isn't enough,
But a proper instructor would stress SHOT PLACMENT in a civilian live fire situation,
Rather than 'Spray & Pray' that is so advocated by people today...

Since a revolver is more dependable than a semi-auto anyway, contrary to current propaganda by manufacturers, a revolver is often a better choice.

Since we are talking tatics,
Just exactly how do you figure someone 'In Contact' with your dominant arm, how do you propose to draw & fire the weapon with someone poking a handgun in your face?
Cocked & locked won't do you any good in your proposed (and highly unlikely) situation?

We teach common sense,
This isn't the old west, you aren't Doc Holiday...
The firearm isn't your only defense...

Your brain is the weapon, the firearm is just a tool,
And we teach tools other than the firearm...

That's the difference between 'Firearms Training' and a comprehensive program...

You can teach target saturation, that's the 'Mimimum' that's required.
A comprehensive instructor would teach students/clients to use their BRAINS instead of just basic firearms skills...


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

could you please post a link to where you are finding the CDC reporting 31,000 GSW treated weekly 

I think I may have found the document you were looking at
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm

but , if you look carefully it took the number of 35,000 deaths and 79,000 non fatal injuries included all suicides and homicides and interpersonal violence , read that as people who intentionally fired to harm some one else or themselves. 

your 800:1 ratio just does not work

be realistic and remove all the suicide and all the homicide drive byes , gang or drug shootings and try for a real number not this jacked up inflated multi year average trying to claim it is a week 

this report also reports a steady decline over the 6 year period that ended 17 years ago 


68% of firearm-related injuries for teenagers and young adults aged 15--24 years were from interpersonal violence, and 78% of firearm-related injuries among older persons aged >65 years were from intentionally self-inflicted gunshot wounds. 


copy from CDC
*Reporting Period:* January 1993--December 1998. 
*Description of the Systems: *Data presented in this report regarding nonfatal injuries are from the National Electronic Injury Surveillance System of the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission. National estimates of nonfatal firearm-related injuries were derived using weighted data for patients treated in a nationally representative, stratified probability sample of U.S. hospital emergency departments (EDs). Death data presented in this report are from CDC's National Vital Statistics System, which includes information from all death certificates filed in the 50 states and the District of Columbia. Population data for calculating rates were obtained from the U.S. Bureau of the Census. 
*Results:* During 1993--1998, an estimated average of 115,000 firearm-related injuries (including 35,200 fatal and 79,400 nonfatal injuries) occurred annually in the United States. Males were seven times more likely to die or be treated in a hospital ED for a gunshot wound than females. The proportion of firearm-related injuries that resulted in death increased from younger to older age groups. Approximately 68% of firearm-related injuries for teenagers and young adults aged 15--24 years were from interpersonal violence, and 78% of firearm-related injuries among older persons aged >65 years were from intentionally self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Black males aged 20--24 years had the highest average annual fatal (166.7/100,000 population) and nonfatal (689.4/100,000 population) firearm-related injury rates during the 6-year period. Although 51.4% of intentionally self-inflicted nonfatal wounds were to the head or neck, 71.8% of unintentional and 45.8% of assault-related nonfatal wounds were to the extremities. During the 6-year period, estimates are that quarterly fatal firearm-related injury rates declined 29.3%, and quarterly nonfatal firearm-related injury rates declined 46.9%. Firearm-related injury rates declined for intentionally self-inflicted, assault, and unintentional causes. 
*Interpretation: *Data in this report regarding trends in firearm-related injury rates during 1993--1998 indicate that both mortality and morbidity from gunshot wounds declined substantially in the United States. However, firearm-related injury continues to be a public health concern accounting for approximately 31,000 deaths and 64,500 nonfatal injuries treated in hospital EDs in 1998. 
*Public Health Action:* A state-based, national reporting system is needed to track the incidence, detailed circumstances, characteristics of the shooter and injured person, and long-term consequences of fatal and nonfatal firearm-related injuries. These data would be useful for the design, implementation, and evaluation of prevention programs aimed at reducing the burden of firearm-related injuries in the United States. 
* INTRODUCTION *

Since 1993, firearm-related injuries and deaths have been declining steadily (_1--3_). However, in 1998, firearm-related injuries remained the second leading cause of injury death in the United States (_3_), accounting for approximately 31,000 deaths. The majority of these fatal and nonfatal firearm-related injuries result from interpersonal violence and intentionally self-inflicted gunshot wounds, but approximately 15,000 unintentional gunshot wounds are treated in U.S. hospital emergency departments (EDs) each year (_4_). Although firearm-related injuries represent <0.5% of injuries treated in hospital EDs


----------



## JeepHammer

Pete,
I'm still trying to grind my way through a link sent to me by a reader I haven't see before...
Apparently NIH includes fragments and shrapnel kicked up by shootings.
I agree this shoud be included.

They also include shock/hysteria & PTSD visits from people that were NOT direct victims, and people that whitnessed events.

I'm not sure that should be included directly,
As an addemdum, maybe, but NOT used as directly 'Gun Shot Victims' since they weren't directly shot or hit by shrapnel from the shooting.

How many times do people visit the emergency room or doctor's office for follow up treatment or panic attacks?
Its simply not segregated so we can't really tell...

I mean I understand the mental issues that come with being in or around a gunfight,
But follow up visits for stress/PTSD/panic attacks skew the results.

The insurance companies, and the health care costs involved with shootings it should absloutely be included, since it costs the insurance premium payer or taxpayer money,
But reported as 'Gun Shot Victims', not so much or at all.

I wonder if my visits to a PTSD group are included in the reports, when it comes right down to it, its really none of the government's business if I'm not seeking treatment/therapy from them...
Combat related PTSD shouldn't skew the civilian numbers, *IF* its being reported.
-----

Anyway, that isn't the issue anyway,
The issue is, we are the most trigger happy civilian population on earth.

And my question is,

*WHY WOULD ANYONE ARGUE 'PROFESSIONALS' TEACHING ADVANCED SAFETY & RESPONSIBILITY THAT COMES WITH FIREARMS OWNERSHIP AND CONCEALED CARRY TO REDUCE SOME OF THE DAMAGE HAPPENING?

You have to have fairly comprehensive training and a license to drive a vehicle,
The larger the vehicle, the more damage it can do,
So advanced training and testing is required.

If you handle dangerous chemicals, like farm/industral chemicals, you have to be trained and certified.

Why not the same training in ALL STATES to carry a deadly weapon in civilian/public?*

Why not a requirement to actuall PASS the concealed carry class instead of just 'Attend'?

-------

'Accidents' happen, 
Education that reduces those 'Accidents' is a good idea.

And I'm NOT arguing the intentional shootings of a criminal,
But the shootings that go on in arguments, road rage, an 'Intruder' that turns out to be friend or family...
Kids 'TP-ing' or soaping windows in the neighborhood...
You shouldn't get shot for being a kid, no matter if they are 'Truspassing'...

Its the implementation that no one can seem to agree on...
I'm simply saying ANYTHING you can do to reduce those 'Accidents' and just bad behavior shootings would be worth pushing the training...

Since its so simple to do, requires no infringement on 'Rights',
Simply taking responsibility for carrying that firearm.

Its amazing the military has so few 'Accidental' shootings with advanced training and accepted standards,
And the civilian population are gunning people down right and left,
SO,
Apparently the accepted training methods in the military ARE WORKING,
While the hodge podge, or non existent requirement in the civilian world IS NOT working...

Instructors in particular shoud be interested in a comprehensive, uniform training program,
And open to a dialogue that would make carrying a firearm as safe as possible,
Rather than teaching people to be on a hair trigger at all times.

Safety/Responsability will filter down from instructors to to carrying citizens,
And carry folks will have a dialogue with each other about what they learned...

Concealed Carry should take a page from SCUBA,
With pending legislation looming, the SCUBA industry took the wheel,
Consolidated, self regulated, requiring proper, comprehensive training and ACTUALLY PASSING a SCUBA class, getting certification, before any SCUBA shop would sell you life support equipment,
And dive shops won't allow you to dive with them unless you have certification.

They banded together, developed comprehensive training programs, agreed on raining criteria,
And reduces injuries/accidents by over 90% in three years!

I'm perfectly aware of the entitlement issue here,
People believing they are entitled to concealed carry,
*IF* the gun shops, private owners and licencing agencies would simply REFUSE to sell a hand gun to anyone without certification,
The same reduction could potentially happen with concealed carry.
Self regulation works, its proven,

*BUT*
The people that think they have an absolute 'Right' to carry without proper education will probably keep that from happening...
Too simple minded to anticipate the conciquences,
Or too stubborn/lazy to change the way they do things.

Just knowing how to load/shoot the firearm does NOT trump my rights NOT to have some idiot discharge in a resruant I'm eating in,
Or to fire a barrage at me because he didn't see a turn signal...
Or to take pot shots at me when I'm walking down a public road but you think I'm 'Truspassing'...

Two things will happen real fast,
I'll try to avoid he live fire incoming,
And I'm going to land on you with both feet!

I'm a rational person, so I'm probably not going to spray everything with lead making the situation worse,
But you are NEVER going to get out of court or out from under what ever I can come up with to make your life miserable.
You will be my new mission in life!

-----

Your chances are 1:370 million at any given day of your life to be present at a crime requiring a firearm to be fired...
That's a pretty slim chance you will need to deploy a firearm, so the chance of needing a cocked & locked firearm just adds to the chance you will have an 'Accidental' discharge, or shoot someone you shouldn't...
One person, just 'YOU', 
In a population of 370 million... 370 million to one that any other of that 370 million trying to take your life...

Its an odds game, nothing in life is assured but death and taxes,
And I'm in no hurry to rush headlong into either!
Anything I can do to keep my life LESS complicated is a good idea to me...


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I am not arguing that it is a fine way to carry if that is how you feel comfortable 

what I am arguing is the legitimacy of the real accidents not gross negligence , homicide , interpersonal violence or suicide.

I want to see real numbers not a bunch of gang violence skewed , suicide laden numbers 

how often does a licensed carrier of a legal open or concealed firearm discharge negligently resulting in injury during a non-hunting activity

Wisconsin had only open carry up till 2011 Oct 1 you could submit your application for a CCL since by the end of 2014 nearly 250,000 of the states 6 million were licensed to carry concealed at the same time unlicensed vehicle carry became legal prior to oct 1 2011 al guns needed to be unloaded and cased in a vehicle 

by your numbers we should have seen a significant increase in the number of firearms injuries and deaths 

but we have not 

so yes I am very suspect of the numbers they always seem to borrow far to heavily from homicide , interpersonal violence or suicide making none of it reliable.

just as you can not count child deaths and include 18, 19 , 20, 21, 22 ,23 and 24 year olds in the numbers they are adults and they are especially not accidents when they happen in the commission of a crime.


----------



## JeepHammer

Yep, I agree, everyone wants to slant things in there direction,
While the people that are supposed to collect the information as part of their jobs don't differentiate or classify properly and lump everything into what ever catagory is handy.

I find it odd that GSW cases are dumped in to the 'Communicable Disease' catagory by the CDC...
Do they think GSW is contagious?

Gee, I hope I don't catch a case of 9mm penetration!

---------

Why do insurance companies list GSWs as 'Preventable'?
Do they think we eat bullets voluntarily?

I was looking at a range of 'Gun Violence Injuries' listed in a law suit a while back,
Things like skinned knees and hands were included...
What the hell is wrong with people thinking a skinned knee makes them a 'Gun Violence Victim'?
PTSD maybe, but if your ONLY basis for joining a law suit is a skinned knee, someone should kick your butt for wasting the court's time!

I don't have all the answers,
I can't 'Verify' everything printed/reported to an absolute certanty since I didn't investigate it myself...
I'm like anyone else, if it looks like a fairly non biased source with reasonable documentation, then its probably not totally off base.

If it comes from ANY source with a dog in the fight, then you can't believe any of it...
The NRA/Pro 'Gun' types are just as bad as the anti-'Gun'/ban everything types.

I'm smack in the middle, trying to make rational sense out of what way too many want to make an emotional issue.

The Constution gives us an absloute right to possess firearms as American citizens,
While only the right wing idiots think every felon, mentally ill, and 7 year old should be able to buy any type of firearm with no regesteration or background check,

Its up to the US population to decide who should be firearms restricted...
You are born with the right, your mental health status or criminal history, particularly your choice to commit crimes should forfeit your right to possess firearms.

And the 'Machine Guns For Everyone' bunch is dead wrong,
You do have the right to own,
But you also have a responsibility of ownership...

This is how convoluted the laws are in just my state,
You CAN buy both long and short firearms without any kind of training at all,
Just do the background check if from a dealer, or cash & carry from a private sale.

You CAN NOT purchase a firearms hunting license without a hunter safety course COMPLETION. 
Not just attend, bu PASS the course.

You can apply for both hunting & target (open carry, no vehicle loaded carry) without any kind of training in the slightest.
And you can apply for & receive a concealed carry permit without the slightest bit of training.

It takes more training to pop a SQURREL than to carry in public places...

Now, to get a permit approved, the local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcment Officer) has to sign off on the permit,
In the city limits, that's the Chief Of Police,
In the county, that's the County Sherrif...

Its not a LAW,
But several of the 'CLEOs' are requiring a COMPLETED concealed carry class before they sign off on the permit.
I applaude them for this! 

The resulting law suits by the far right have been defeated on the state level,
Since the way the law is written, the CLEO has blanket and absloute right to sign off or not.

Education on safety is never a bad thing!

I teach for class materials only, cost is about $15 for targets and printing costs.
Some people charge up to $600 for their versions... Which is rediclous...
And in my opinion is an undue burdon/limitation.

I also teach the hunter safety classes, for the same price, plus ammo...
I furnish firearms for those that don't have firearms yet, and ammo isn't free!
Shoot what you bring, but if I supply your training firearm, the least you can do is pay for the rounds you fire...
No complaints so far!

I will NOT sell a firearm to anyone that doesn't want to pay the $10 to $15 dollars for the federal background check at an FFL dealer,
No exceptions.
First off, I don't want to sell a firearm to someone that is firearms restricted or prohibited.
Second, I don't want my name on the serial number of a firearm I no longer own or control.
'Legal' or not, if you don't have a hand gun permit of somekind, I refuse to sell a handgun to you.
Get the training, get the permit, do the transfer and I'll be glad to pass something I own on to someone that wants it.

Not required by law, but my contribution to the safety/security of the general public,
And my contribution to legal, LAWFUL firearms owners now and in the future.

I know its a drop in the ocean since there are way more firearms than people in this country,
But self regulation has to start somewhere or its going to come down from people that have no idea what they are doing...


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## Chuck R.

JeepHammer said:


> I *teach the same way everyone else does* when the program is aimed at civilians, If its a one handed draw/fire you are after,Then you simply recommend a double action revolver.


This differs drastically from what I've been taught/experienced. Over the past 5 years or so I've taken about 6 defensive firearms classes. Probably 9 or 10 classes over all between pistol, carbine and shotgun since I retired in 2005 from the Army. Not once has any instructor advocated Condition 3 carry, and not one has ever said if you want a single hand draw use a revolver. None have taught, or even sounded like they recommended "spray and pray" and non have recommended using a weapon unless it was absolutely necessary. 

As I've stated before I'm surprised that any professional instructor would imply what you do concerning other instructors. 

Now, my sampling of classes and instructors isn't very large. Luckily I belong to another gun board that has a very active training sub-forum that has a decent number of trainers/instructors on it, more importantly a large number of the members take training classes regularly from some pretty well known instructors/organizations. Just to verify that my experience with training isn't out to lunch I'll create a survey based on your posts to get a feel for what a larger group of instructors train and recommend to their students. This should/will expand my limited sample size and give a good feel for what a lot of guys either instruct themselves or see in classes.

I'll take a snapshot of the survey in a couple days to show the results and post it here. IF GPC is "OK" with it I'll post a thread link so others can get an idea as to what other instructors/students recommend and train.

I'll even make an attempt to answer your question although you've yet to answer mine other than "use a revolver" or it's never going to happen:



JeepHammer said:


> Just exactly how do you figure someone 'In Contact' with your dominant arm, how do you propose to draw & fire the weapon with someone poking a handgun in your face? Cocked & locked won't do you any good in your proposed (and highly unlikely) situation?


Many would say that ending up with a pistol in your face is a failure in SA,
and yes you're most likely screwed without a distraction. 

This is where a serious gut check comes in as you need to decide rapidly as best you can your adversaries intent. It may be better to let them have what they want provided you "feel" you will not be harmed. 

Should you be in physical contact and unable to draw, your best chance is to defend yourself,while attempting to get distance enough to draw, or rotate your body (strong side/pistol side) away from your attacker to enable drawing your weapon. 

You're right (without a doubt the only thing I agree with you on) a weapon with a loaded chamber will not help, unless you do get the ability to draw your weapon (neither will a revolver). IF you do get to draw, then condition 1 or 0 is a distinct advantage to condition 3 if carrying a semi-auto. 

Just my take on it. You'll note the lack of Quigley Down under quotes, which while cute add nothing to the discussion. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I am fine with a link , links to relevant info on other sites are always fine


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## Chuck R.

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I am fine with a link , links to relevant info on other sites are always fine


Thanks GPC!

Here's the link to the poll/thread:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...arry-vs-condition-3-trainers-perspective.html

Here's the questions I asked:

I am a defensive pistol/CCW instructor and I recommend Condition 3 carry as preferable to Condition 1 or 0 for safety reasons to my students that carry semi-auto pistols.

I am a defensive pistol/CCW instructor and I recommend a revolver to those students that feel the need for an immediate first shot without the need to rack the slide (C3)

I have taken professional firearms/CCW training where the instructor(s) recommended Condition 3 Carry as preferable to Condition 1 or 0 for safety reasons.

I have taken professional firearms/CCW training where the instructor recommend a revolver to those students that feel the need for an immediate first shot without the need to rack the slide (C3)

I'll post a shot of the poll in a couple days.

Chuck


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## tarbe

JeepHammer said:


> I guess that's why carrying a cocked & locked side arm of any kind outside of a combat zone is a court martial offense in the military to this day...
> Because it's so safe?


Nothing to do with safety at all.

But you obviously think (or want me to think) it is...so...carry on.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

how is carrying a revolver with a cylinder full of rounds mechanically different than carrying a DAO semi or even a DA first shot semi with a round in the chamber.

the round is under the firing pin , aligned with the barrel and they require a longer heavier pull

other than the DA semi may also have an external safety lever that must also be manipulated


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## Chuck R.

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> how is carrying a revolver with a cylinder full of rounds mechanically different than carrying a DAO semi or even a DA first shot semi with a round in the chamber.
> 
> the round is under the firing pin , aligned with the barrel and they require a longer heavier pull
> 
> other than the DA semi may also have an external safety lever that must also be manipulated


It isn't, you, I and a bunch of others know that. 

Next thing will be "it could cause an ND due to the lighter follow up SA trigger pull or "spray and pray" due to the possibility the DA/SA semi in question has a double stack mag. 

Chuck


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## JeepHammer

Chuck, welcome to the conversation.

Police, Homeland Security, ect. are taught locked and loaded,
As they should be,

The rift here is with civilian carry, and believe me, I've had this same conversation with every instructor and long time carry guy I know.

Two local collages and one private training facility that prepare students for law emforcment/Homeland Security that I consult at on the training program, so I saw the 1,100 page report on the 2011 shootings and recommendations.
Since there aren't any standardized training programs, recommendations is all the government can make.

2011 had 11 student shoot themselves, 2 shoot other people, including the most capable instructor I know.
We didn't have any injuries, but at the three ranges I'm involved with, we had 19 accidental discharges in 2011.

In 2012 we picked our brains, tools some of the recommendations in the Homeland report,
And some guys a lot smarter than me devised two different training programs.

One for civilians,
One for Law Enforcment.

In 2013 we didn't have one single accidental discharge other than when the state police used the range, and we don't train state police. They had two in three days of using the range.

In 2014 we had two accidental/unintended discharges, both from the on site gunsmith trying to clear jammed/malfunctioning weapons.
Sometimes when the guts of a firearm malfunction, its not safe on any level,
And the range was cleared both times before the gunsmith tried to safe the weapon.

The just of our training changes was to stop civilian accidental shootings/discharges.
We mostly train civilians, not law enforcement YET,
And just plain folks that want to conceal carry.
Civilians!

Now, its too soon to tell if our training changes are luck, a glitch, just a good year or two,
So I'm making no claims we have the ultimate answer for anything...
Its looking better, but only time will tell.

We decided to teach 'Common Sense',
If you wouldn't go into this neighborhood or that place after dark without a firearm,
Then don't go ther WITH a firearm.
You are pushing a bad situation, and you are NOT bullet proof with a trigger under your finger!

DO NOT carry when you are drinking.
Being drunk is no time to have a handgun handy.
Drugs/alcohol are a major factor in interpersonal shootings.
YOU have the firearm, YOU have the responsibility to take the handgun out of any situation drugs or alcohol situations.
I also tell them if called to testify, I will smack them with a brick on that issue,
Just because I'm an instructor, I will NOT do anything to pry them out of trouble.
(That's part of the legal issues we cover if their firearm is used)

If its a clean shooting, they won't have a bigger supporter than me...

Its a 'BASICS' issue,
Be aware of your situation! Situational Awareness, listening to the hair on the back of your neck, will keep you OUT of situations where you might need to draw/fire the firearm.
(Firearm, NOT a 'Weapon' until its fired! Always remember the anti gun folks are watching/listening!)

*IF* you can NOT avoid a bad situation, then it takes only a second to move that FIREARM to condition 1,
Up to and including having that firearm in your hand, holstered or not...

This is because 'Accidental' discharges are no accident in 99.9% of cases.
It's operator error, the firearm didnt malfunction, the owner/operator screwed up.
No round under the hammer/striker, you have to be completely incompetent to have an accidental discharge...

The other big deal was *TRYING* to teach users NOT to finger the trigger!
I do it myself, I was trained in an earlier time, and after trying to retrain myself over the past 3 years, I STILL find myself laying a finger on the trigger, along side the trigger when I'm holstering/unholstering handguns, I lay my finger on the trigger when I pick up/examine handguns, ect.

Part of this is training or what I'm accustomed to,
Part of it is the handgun is DESIGNED to be more comfortable with a finger in the trigger guard...
Yup, I'm human, my hand fits with a finger in the trigger guard, and I'm an old dog, slow to learn new stuff.
I'm a bad example to students, so I really have to watch when they are around, and correct myself when they are not...

I know of two celebrities that have shot themselves when they DROPPED loaded firearms,
Spoken to both, both have no excuses, it was a simple accident.
I don't know the statistics on dropping/discharge is,
But I know 'Professionals' that have had the same situations.

I've dropped handguns before, but none discharged.
Knocked them off tables, snagged them on clothing, dropped them trying to pass them to someone else...
Yup, I'm human, and I have made mistakes.

Again, without one under the hammer and the firearm can NOT fire.

And those are just a few reasons we started teaching an empty chamber.
Simply and purely a safety issue,
Nothing to do with right to carry,
Nothing to do with gun fighting when you pushed a bad situation,
Nothing to do with anything political.

Just something to think about,
And I'm an old dog trying to learn new tricks,
The point is, I'm still learning after 45 years handling firearms regularly.


----------



## JeepHammer

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> how is carrying a revolver with a cylinder full of rounds mechanically different than carrying a DAO semi or even a DA first shot semi with a round in the chamber.
> 
> the round is under the firing pin , aligned with the barrel and they require a longer heavier pull
> 
> other than the DA semi may also have an external safety lever that must also be manipulated


The revolver is nearly 200 years old,
In 200 years of mechanical evolution, its very dependable.

The 'Safety' has traditionally been to NOT load the chamber the hammer sits on.
That still works.
No mechanical device 'Safety' to fail,
No risk of discharge when the hammer is struck,
No 'Decock' to fail and discharge the weapon accidentally.

Not everyone wears a hard, outside holster,
A revolver can be fired if you inside the pants holster comes out and stays on the firearm, same with a 'Gun Wallet',

Revolvers will fire the entire cylinder inside a coat pocket, purse, backpack, computer case or where ever you are carrying it.

These are civilians, no big rigid safety holster on the outside of the pants most times, they don't have delusions of zombie hordes decending on the from out of no where...

The higher trigger pull on a DA to rotate the cylinder is also a safety feature that's unintended.
No light weight trigger ready to release a striker spring or hammer in the event of something coming into contact with the trigger,
Like your finger, something in you conceal carry, ect.

I carry on a loop made into my belt, no holster.
When I carry a pocket pistol, its in my pocket, usually a revolver in a soft pocket sleeve it can be fired right through with no issues.

I teach the same things.
You don't conceal carry to put that firearm out there for the world to see,
That's why it's called CONCEALED carry...

When you loose the element of surprise, the chances of YOU getting shot go to about 50/50,
I'd much rather the 'Perp' not know the firearm is there until it goes off,
Particularly with women that aren't likely to have muscle on their side.
I teach to have/keep EVERY advantage in the event of a gun fight.

I'm not training police/military, I'm training civilians...
I don't teach them to stand toe to toe, and shoot it out until someone, or both, are too shot up to continue.

I teach fire and escape.
You have the advantage, use the advantage, escape in the shock/confusion and stay alive.

I'm not saying flee the scene, but you are MUCH safer a block away until police arrive ans secure the situation,
Which IS NOT a civillian's job!

Its also a good way to NOT get shot by cops or buddies of the 'Perp',
Since no one responding to the scene has any idea who is what.

If you aren't capable of defending yourself with a revolver,
A reasonable size semi-auto with reasonable barrel length & magazine, 
Then you have a lousy instructor.

If you need high volume, military grade firearms,
Lots of extra mags/ammo, 'High Tech threat level red ready,
You are in the military, police or special operations team.

If you have an instructor that keeps pushing that crap,
He's probably sellin it, or he's a zealot, again, find an instructor that has YOUR best interest in mind...

If your instructor doesn't THROUGHLY cover the legal process,
To FULLY expect to be drilled on for a statement, which you SHOULD NOT give on scene or IMMEDATELY after the shooting,
Expect to be charged with homocide in most places,
Talk to a lawyer first, the answer the DA/Dective Investagators questions with legal council present...

If this isn't covered, then the instructor is out of his mind, find another!


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## Chuck R.

OK, here's the results, couple caveats I didn't do a fantastic job of creating the poll, but it does seem to contradict the concept that the "majority of civilian trainers teach carrying a pistol i n Condition 3". For those that want to read the entire thread, here's the link:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...arry-vs-condition-3-trainers-perspective.html

Here's the shot of the poll:



There were 1953 Views and 111 responses, the majority had a negative view of training shooters to carry Condition 3. This apparently is a pretty hot button topic over there. 

There were 2 trainers that advocated training Condition 3, but the consensus was only if the students were uncomfortable in carrying C1 or C0.

Some of the responses are:



> #5 I never had a professional trainer recommend carrying a defensive weapon with an empty chamber.





> #19 I do not know of a single Instructor that advocates carry with an empty chamber. I did not respond as there was no option for the correct way to carry. Anyone that carries with an empty chamber is suffering from a lack of proper training.





> #45 For the record, I have had 180-200 hours of formal firearms training in the last four or five years. I have NEVER had an instructor advocate carrying a defensive firearm with an empty chamber. The closest I have ever heard is something along the lines of:
> 
> If you absolutely feel you MUST carry in this manner, practice constantly to
> charge the gun using one hand only. If you wind up have two hands available, great, but be prepared at all times to have only one.
> 
> Beyond that, it has always been assumed that all guns are loaded, always.





> #50 I carry chambered. My school advocates Carrying Chambered. The school is owned and operated by a retired Navy SEAL, for whatever that is worth.
> 
> Makhaira Group - Providing conceal carry (ccw) , pistol, handgun training
> and self-defense in northern Colorado





> #53 I have never had a trainer say to carry in condition 3. I do not teach condition 3. It is a defensive weapon, not a weapon of pursuit, or of war. When we need it, it should be ready to go.





> #59 I am a professional firearms instructor and I absolutely DO NOT
> recommend empty chamber carry to anyone. If you are carrying it on your
> person and you don't have the ability to keep from shooting yourself with
> the round in the chamber then you need to either get some professional
> training or you need to rethink whether you need to be carrying and using a
> gun in public.
> 
> The folks who are not competent enough to keep from shooting themselves with a loaded chamber are just as likely to shoot themselves chambering a round under stress IF they even get the opportunity in a defensive situation. The reason we even carry guns on our person is in case of sudden immediate
> attack that we cannot get away from. What part of sudden and immediate makes you think you'll have time to take your gun from non functional to
> functional???
> 
> Randy Harris
> *Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor*
> NRA Certified Instructor
> Master Class IDPA SSP





> #107 I am an instructor but I don't advocate condition 3 nor do I advocate a revolver as an alternative to condition 3. (Nothing wrong with revolvers.... other than trigger pull weight making it hard to shoot light weight small frame revolvers at speed and limited capacity and weight to capacity ratio and the fact that short revolvers are harder to shoot well than autos and are slower to reload especially one handed if injured ......but other than that they are fine) and I have never been to a single instructor who
> advocated either condition 3 or a revolver as an alternative to condition 3.





> #112 A 'professional trainer' recommending that you carry your semi-auto unloaded because of safety reasons is like saying either A. You're too dumb to carry a firearm competently and safely so here's a workaround or B. I'm too poor of an instructor to thoroughly teach you proper firearm safety.
> 
> Neither one is acceptable when your subject matter is instructional use of a
> device that's capable of causing death or serious injury if used or handled
> improperly.


The thread has pretty much run it's course. Pretty interesting exercise with some guys with pretty strong opinions.

Chuck


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## GunMonkeyIntl

JeepHammer, I find two things alarming in your posts, elevated to the level of full-blown scary, considering that, as an instructor, there are whole groups of undeveloped shooters to whom you are presenting yourself as an expert.

*First:*
You seem to have a very incomplete understanding of the mechanics of firearms. You suggest that the safest way to carry a revolver is without a round in the aligned chamber. Considering that almost no one carries a single action revolver anymore, this means that a loaded chamber will be aligned with the firing pin or hammer by the time the action of the lock is complete. Unless, of course, you mean that the chamber next in line should be unloaded, in which case the shooter would have to pull through two lock cycles to get a round off. The whole idea of an empty chamber in a revolver comes from the days before design advancements like secured rebound systems, and trigger block safeties. Prior to those advancements, the hammer, usually with a nose-mounted striker, could ignite the round in the aligned chamber with a sufficient bump to the spur. It had nothing to do with keeping the weapon from firing with shooter influence, just as it doesn't today, either. 

When judging the merits of ones weapon's relative safety compared to another, it's critical to consider two facts: nearly every current design dictates that, for the weapon to go off, the trigger must be pulled; and, in an adrenaline-fueled situation, the difference between a 2 pound and a 12 pound trigger pull is negligible. 

Considering the dulled fine motor skills one experiences when adrenaline is pumping through their blood, the body preferring to apply its focus to gross motor skills, the difference between a 2 pound and a 12 pound pull is all but lost on the shooter The action happens so quickly, and the ranges involved so short, that a shooter with a double action gets their shots off in essentially the same amount of time as one with a short single action. 

Couple that with the advent of trigger block safeties, requiring that the trigger be pulled in order for the firing pin/hammer/striker to reach the cartridge's primer, in a defensive shooting situation, a 1911, the very posted-child for condition-3-carry arguments, assuming it is a Series 80 design, carried in *Condition 0*, is no more prone to a ND than a Glock or a S&W 642. In order for the shooter to fire it, they must place their finger on the trigger and pull it. What keeps either weapon from firing negligently is the operator keeping their finger off the trigger until they're ready to shoot, which brings me to #2....

*Second*:
You have no business shooting around others, _let alone_ being their instructor if...


JeepHammer said:


> The other big deal was *TRYING* to teach users NOT to finger the trigger!
> I do it myself, I was trained in an earlier time, and after trying to retrain myself over the past 3 years, I STILL find myself laying a finger on the trigger, along side the trigger when I'm holstering/unholstering handguns, I lay my finger on the trigger when I pick up/examine handguns, ect.
> 
> Part of this is training or what I'm accustomed to,
> Part of it is the handgun is DESIGNED to be more comfortable with a finger in the trigger guard...
> Yup, I'm human, my hand fits with a finger in the trigger guard, and I'm an old dog, slow to learn new stuff.
> I'm a bad example to students, so I really have to watch when they are around, and correct myself when they are not...


This is not an "old dog, new tricks" issue. If you can't keep yourself from breaking Rule #2, then you have exactly 0 insurance for the times when you unknowingly break Rule #1. 

Rule #1 is paramount, but it is unknowingly broken by everyone from time to time, in the dynamic situations of everything from a gun shop, to a shooting range, to your bedroom, to a crime scene. As guns are handled, and people are moving around you, the best efforts to avoid breaking Rule #1 are thwarted by people outside of your control, which is why we have Rule #2. 

If you can't pick up, deploy, or holster a gun without 100% muscle-memory certainty that you will not place your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot, then you are putting everyone around you at risk when you choose to handle weapons in their presence. 

You owe it to others to turn in your instructor certs, find a private range, unload your weapons at home (assuming anyone else lives there), and go back to merit-badge level training until you should even _think_ about handling weapons in the presence of others.

I realize that may sound harsh, but in weapons training circles, tough love is often the only kind of love you'll find. This isn't some keyboard-warrior bash-the-other-guy juice. It's a sincere wake-up smack to the back of the head. 

If you can honestly say that you're not 100% -----test positive when you pick up, deploy, or holster a weapon that your finger will not be on the trigger, then its time for you to step back and reevaluate. 

Calling it an old dog habit will not be worth a fart-gone-solid when you find yourself standing on a range yelling for a trauma kit and medevac.


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## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
> I teach the same way everyone else does when the program is aimed at civilians, If its a one handed draw/fire you are after,Then you simply recommend a double action revolver.


Actually, very little of what you've said matches most of what I've learned, adn I thnk you've stretched a lot to get some of your numbers.


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## JeepHammer

Chuck, your entire poll was a 'Sample' of 6 people.

Gun Monkey,
There are two kinds of people when it comes to firearms,
The ones that admit to occasional mistakes,
And liars...

I admit I make the occasional mistake,
But I've come a long way from finger on the trigger ready I was taught in the Marines.

Also, you need to check on revolver sales,
Most of the 'Concealed Carry' revolvers sold are import copies of older 'Detective' models, mostly in .38 Spl., both 5 & 6 shot.

The imports DO NOT have hammer blocks or transfer bar safeties,
And one would be an IDIOT to teach relying on a me mechanical safety the NEXT handgun the student picks up may not have!

The problem isn't with students,
Its with the trigger happy instructors training them like they are going to Syria to fight ISIS on a SEAL team.

*IF* you can't teach a soccer mom to handle a handgun SAFELY around children,
Then its the instructor with the problem.
Nothing like reading about another 10 year old that found 'Moms' gun in the night stand, her purse, and blew away their you get sibling playing with the handgun....

That's the problem, the 'Instructors' are selling 'Combat Tactical',
Exaggerating the threat to a fever pitch,
And the students are shooting at everything they shouldn't...

Personally, and its a growing movement, instructors are being held responsible for the actions of their students... As it should be when some idiot winds up a student and turns them loose on an unsuspecting public and their families.

Put a few trigger happy instructors on trial right next to their trigger happy students, and things would change in a hurry!
It GOING TO HAPPEN, sooner or later there will be a government involvement no matter how much money gets dumped into congress trying to stop it.

Just a little common sense now, a little modification in training would make a HUGE difference in how much 'Government' gets involved...
But what do I know, there are still people that think global warming isn't real...


----------



## Chuck R.

JeepHammer said:


> Chuck, your entire poll was a 'Sample' of 6 people.


The problem is those 6 people are the ones that either agree with you, or have had an instructor teach that Condition 3 is THE WAY to carry. 

That's out of 111 replies and 1997 views. To me at least that indicates that your statement:



JeepHammer said:


> I teach the same way everyone else does when the program is aimed at civilians, If its a one handed draw/fire you are after,Then you simply recommend a double action revolver.


Is false.

Now you can rationalize it any way you want to, and I have no doubt you will, but the majority of people that responded to that thread don't advocate condition 3 carry. If you believe they're wrong, then by all means join the site and debate with them. But I'll warn you know, throwing out stupid chit like "trigger happy" instructors/students which you seem to use as justification for your opinions won't cut it there, just as it doesn't with me. I still seriously doubt you know what your talking about........ 

Keep in mind, I didn't do this to enlighten you, I gave up on that after your second post in this thread, I did it so that anybody that might believe you or follow your advice could see some different opinions. I agree with most of the posters there: 

*IF I ever had an instructor advocate Condition 3, I'd find another instructor. *

Chuck


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## GunMonkeyIntl

I'm not sure what to address first, since that post was a bit like Hellen Keller swinging a hammer, so I'll try to start in order of the nails you hit first. 

Chuck's poll may have only had 6 subjects vote, but you seemed to miss the overarching point that, in a thread will almost 2k views and over 100 responses, only 3 instructors voted, with the rest choosing not to vote because C0/1 was not an option, and the thread took off in a direction of instructors weighing in support of C0/1 carry. 

To your point in response of mine, you are correct that we all make mistakes. Sometimes we think we unloaded our weapon when we did not, sometimes we think we are alone when we are handling a firearm and someone surprises us, sometimes we think the range beyond our target is safe only to identify a safety issue beyond it, sometimes we think that we intend to destroy a target only to find out in the last moment that it is not a threat. Those common mistakes are exactly why rule #2 exists. Professionals DON'T make mistakes with #2. 

Blame it on ergonomics if you like, but a professional will never put their finger on the trigger of a weapon that they're picking up to examine. The USMC did not teach you to do that. If you think they did, that's a fault in your memory. If someone along the way did teach you that, you need to try real hard to remember who that was, and make sure that if you see them, or anyone else they may have "trained", about to handle a weapon, you need to leave the area. 

Likewise, if you think there's even a chance of you doing that, it's time for you to step down from the podium and let someone more capable take it. 

Had my dad caught me breaking #2t, even at 8 or 10 years old, he would have thrown me out of his shop, and I wouldn't have my career. I saw a new recruit, 3 days into the job, after moving his family across the country, fired after breaking #2 in front of a client. It was the right thing to do, and he's now working in textiles- a much better fit. 

In class, if you encounter an initiate with their finger on the trigger of a gun at an inappropriate time, then you give them plenty of extra eye-time, and work with them that much harder. If you catch someone claiming to be a professional do it, they are immediately broken off the cadre and remitted back to 101-level. They are no longer a professional. 

Regarding the weapon design bit, the most commonly sold revolvers today from S&W, Taurus, and Ruger, all have trigger-linked transfer bars and secured rebounds. True enough, someone will eventually show up to class with a LeMat loaded with 9 rounds of hand-rolled .42 and a round of 20ga buck, but, as the authority in the room and on the subject, you'd have a side-bar with that student. As the the instructor, it's your job to be familiar with the weapons that might show up in your class, and, as necessary, adjust your POI _for that student_. If the weapon is wholly inappropriate, and a suitable loaner can't be supplied, you send them home until they can secure a more appropriate weapon. You do not change the POI for the rest of the student base, putting them all at a disadvantage because of what one weirdo showed up with. 

And, I think this is last, for the consistent ranting about instructors teaching their students as if they're going into a combat zone; they are. The only difference is that, in combat, the objective is to make the other guy die, but, in both scenarios, the paramount goal is to not let the other guy kill you. In both situations people die, just as dead as in the other, and readiness is your best weapon. 

Combat pistol shooting is far from an expertise of mine, so I relegate myself to the side of the room opposite the podium for those classes. I have a lot of respect for those who do have a professional level of skill in it, and, when they take the podium, I shut my mouth and listen. I don't scoff if they use phrases like "in contact", "take cover", and "break contact", because I know what they are teaching me to do is to survive an instance of short, but intense combat. 

If they start talking platitudes about keeping my stupid-self from carrying my weapon in a manner they consider unsafe, or fighting the image concerns placed on an armed civilian populace, I may stick around long enough to hear the rest of what they say. If they then pick up a gun and put their finger on the trigger because they're an "old dog", the door won't have a chance to hit my rear end before I'm clear of it.


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## GunMonkeyIntl

And, it would helpful if you'd enlighten us with where and what you teach, so the rest of us can start our classes with a poll. 

I, for one, will keep a closer eye on anyone that's been through your class, as soon as I'm finished checking them for any wounds that need immediate attention.


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## joejeep92

I have never been a firearms instructor. However, I was taught to shoot by soldiers and law enforcement officers who were taught to shoot and shot in combat and other dicey situations. They were trained to deal with these situations and they still told stories of the things people did under stress, short stroking shotguns and handguns alike, firing until empty then proceeding to point and pull the trigger multiple times while empty, inserting a mag and forgetting to rack a round in and more. If these trained professionals when under extreme duress can manage to make mistakes under stress and adrenaline then how can you expect your "soccer mom" students to perform flawlessly and "rack a round in 1/10th a second". Statistically speaking, a defensive gunfight is a short range and quick proposition. That 1/10th of a second is realistic with a calm individual on a controlled range. Under duress, than can turn into a 6 man carry. I have been in situations where I had to draw my weapon and right now. When I did, I don't remember the thought crossing my mind to do it, all of a sudden I was looking over sights and it was a good thing too because to take the time spent to rack a round would have put me in serious trouble let alone a dark fumble with an adrenaline soaked blood stream. As far as revolvers without a round under them, I don't think you have studied the construction of the modern revolver too much, google transfer bar for some enlightening reading.


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## Bearfootfarm

Originally Posted by JeepHammer:



> Also, you need to check on revolver sales,
> *Most of the 'Concealed Carry' revolvers sold are import copies* of older 'Detective' models, mostly in .38 Spl., both 5 & 6 shot.





> *The imports DO NOT have hammer blocks or transfer bar safeties,*
> And one would be an IDIOT to teach relying on a me mechanical safety the NEXT handgun the student picks up may not have!


Now I'm officially convinced you're just making all this up as you go.


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## joejeep92

No one should ever teach to "rely" on a safety. If proper safety precautions are followed than your finger will never be on the trigger until you are ready to destroy what it is pointed at. A Glock has no safety but I feel perfectly comfortable carrying one because if I do my job, it does not magically go off! My finger has to be there to trigger the round...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

you have to teach how to identify an action type and mechanism so that the student can educate themselves and apply the proper procedure to the proper gun.

or you will never be right there will always be an exception 

muzzle control and keeping the finger out of the trigger guard are common but how to load , unload , external and internal safeties or lack there of need to be applied to the individual gun or type of gun. some times we can make generalized statements like only feed rounds from the magazine of a semi auto pistol , not every gun needs this but it won't hurt anything to do it that way.


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## JeepHammer

Well, while you guys are patting each other on the back,
Saying everyone is living in a combat zone and should carry locked, loaded and ready for a gunfight at THIS second,
I'm in Deleware teaching the exact opposite to an instructors gathering...

Where concealed MEANS concealed,
Not some surburbian Rambo with the 'Tacti-Cool', giant hip or leg 'Gunfighter' rig,
Pocket pistols rule the day,
Accredited training is required,
And they are addressing the poor/hair trigger training that causes "accidental" shootings.

They smell the Feds getting involved, and are being proactive about it.


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## Chuck R.

Bearfootfarm said:


> Originally Posted by JeepHammer:
> 
> Now I'm officially convinced you're just making all this up as you go.


Naw, there's has to be some form of premeditation, no one can come up with this quantity of BS without working at it. 

Chuck


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## joejeep92

JeepHammer said:


> Well, while you guys are patting each other on the back,
> Saying everyone is living in a combat zone and should carry locked, loaded and ready for a gunfight at THIS second,
> I'm in Deleware teaching the exact opposite to an instructors gathering...
> 
> Where concealed MEANS concealed,
> Not some surburbian Rambo with the 'Tacti-Cool', giant hip or leg 'Gunfighter' rig,
> Pocket pistols rule the day,
> Accredited training is required,
> And they are addressing the poor/hair trigger training that causes "accidental" shootings.
> 
> They smell the Feds getting involved, and are being proactive about it.


No, for me personally, concealed definitely means concealed. That means that while you have a tactical advantage of surprise, you have the tactical disadvantage of speed. As a concealed firearm carrier you are behind the curve in that even with the best awareness of your surroundings you are at least the second to know you are going to be involved in a violent encounter. Being as I'm already behind, I don't want to give up any advantage. That means carrying a round in the chamber whether in a semi-auto or revolver.


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## Chuck R.

joejeep92 said:


> No, for me personally, concealed definitely means concealed. That means that while you have a tactical advantage of surprise, you have the tactical disadvantage of speed. As a concealed firearm carrier you are behind the curve in that even with the best awareness of your surroundings you are at least the second to know you are going to be involved in a violent encounter. Being as I'm already behind, I don't want to give up any advantage. That means carrying a round in the chamber whether in a semi-auto or revolver.


Youâre wasting your time/bandwidth, his response will be:

1. The odds that youâll need that extra time are so remote that it wonât happen.

2. Condition 1 carry is only promoted by âtrigger happyâ trainers/instructors that cater to the commercial market.

3. All the cool kids (civilian trainers) advocate and train condition 3.

4. If you really feel the need for a fast 1st shot carry a revolver (see #3 cause the cool kids recommend revolvers too). 

5. The cool kids smell the feds getting involved with Condition 1/0 carry. (This whole concept is freaking hilarious) 

6. Concealed means concealed??? What does that have to do with Condition 1/0 or 3 carry???

Iâve come to the conclusion that either:

A. Heâs some lonely older guy that needs his meds adjusted.

Or

B. Heâs some 12 year old kid yanking our chain.

Either way Iâm done feeding this particular troll.

Chuck


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## JeepHammer

Well, if 'Rambo Jr.' will actually stuff a sock in it like he's said he was going to already,

Cops Military have their own trainers that adjust curriculum/practice to those particular professions.
I'm neither, so their training/tatics is up to them.

I train a lot of first time carry, house wives that believe the propaganda, and believe there are hords of evil doers around every corner.
I train men from all professions, white collar to ditch diggers.
Also duped into believing they need a handgun to 'Protect' themselves,
Even though the last 30 or 40 years they haven't needed one, never been in a position that required one or they wouldn't be here to take a class.

Paranoia has set in deep, they actually 'Believe' they need a firearm, and there is no talking them out of it... Even though they mostly live in a very low crime area,
A stolen lawnmower makes the paper...

So I hand out bricks, with belt clips attached to them.
Tell them to carry a brick around a few days and decide if they 'Really' want some big 'Tacti-Cool' semi auto or something reasonable sized/weight...

When they go to choose a handgun, we discuss size, weight, sights, the range they might encounter a 'Shoot' situation,
Then we try a few rounds on the range, one on one.
They ALWAYS find out its not easy to hit anything past about 15 feet with ANY KIND of 'Pocket' pistol without a LOT of training and practice,
And they usually admit they are NOT going to practice regularly...

So now we are down to a point & shoot handgun,
One without a bunch of weight or bulk.

So the next step is ballistics,
The usual suspects, .380, 9mm, .40 Cal., .45 ACP in semi,
.22LR or Mag, .32, .38/Spl/.357 Mag.

When they are educated about the firearms, 
Snag points, like lasers, flashlights, sights, hammers, ect.
About half pick a revolver over a semi auto.

Without education, they will pick a small capacity, 'Pocket Rocket', 
Usually with accessories they don't need and won't use,
And if they haven't fired it before shooting, some caliber that almost ensures they get rattled when its fired...

Then comes the coat pocket test, and I use a real coat.
Simply ask them to fire 5 or 6 rounds down range with the handgun in a coat pocket,
Pointing the hand gun like you would in a close encounter with an aggressor.
First a revolver, then a semi auto.
I have yet to see a semi auto pass, firing all rounds...

Seems the semi-autos have that pesky ejection port, and the brass rarely ejects RELIABLY, 
Turning your super-duper, plastic fantastic into a rock,
A rock that's hard to get out of your pocket since its a 'Block' or has snag points all over it...

The good old, tried and true hammer-less revolver passes every time...
No 300 yard, night vision 'Tacti-Cool' sights sticking up in the way, no hammer ear snagging, no lasers (with dead batteries), no 'Tacti-Cool' lights,
No pistol bayonets or any of that other nonsense,

Just 5 or 6 rounds that actually fired through a purse or coat pocket,
Directly into center mass of an aggressor.

So simple a house wife, suit & tie, ect, can do I after 8 or 12 or 16 hours of instruction...
--------

Now, basic safety, getting familiar, loading & unloading, advanced safety, range time,
Dealing with threats in the most basic terms, using natural reflexes instead of complicated training that takes continous practice & drills...

What the current crop of 'Rambo' instructors isn't getting is these are soccer moms & 9 to 5 people...
We are NOT supposed to be training someone to persue people, kick doors in, or ready them for dynamic entry in a combat zone...

Emphasis on situational awareness, bystanders, houses/schools/parks behind the agressor,
NOT carrying a cannon loaded with AP rounds....

If you are trying to shoot through a car door, penetrate cover, ect.
Then YOU are wrong!
You are getting someone with basic concealed carry training in way over their heads,
Both tactically and LEAGALLY!

Safety should be #1 priority so they don't shoot themselves or friends/family.
If you don't teach a woman to shoot through a purse or anyone to shoot through a coat pocket, where 90% of concealed carry will wind up at one time or another,
And NOT to shoot someone just because they were scared or surprised,
Then YOU should be held responsible...


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## JeepHammer

So far this week, I've had to deal with two armchair 'Rambos', 
Both claiming to be 'Former Navy SEALs'...
Sounding EXACTLY like two or three on this thread,
Couldn't identify what state 'Little Creek' was in, or its significance,
Couldn't tell me what CRT stands for,
But were just FULL of themselves trying to convince me everyone in the country was in IMMEDATE and dire threat of being attacked by viscous mobs...

So I outed them just to get rid of them.
Probably not the best idea to claim you were a SEAL when someone that knows the difference is around...
I consider it stolen valor even though they weren't wearing the uniform or medals...
Just more paranoid, 'Rambo' wannabes making money off people they are scaring the crap out of...


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## DEKE01

JeepHammer said:


> 16 years in the Marine Corps, 14 in special operations.
> 
> 
> I've had 'Accidental' discharges, the safety procedures kept anyone from getting hurt,
> 
> Those same police get TONS more training than the average concealed carry person!


There was lots in your messages that set off my "I doubt it" meter which you may know by another name. 

I've carried for about 10 years. I've never had an accidental discharge and I have lots of Spec Ops, SF friends, Green Beret and Seals. My lifelong childhood friend was Green Beret and I spent 10 years as a contractor supporting their overseas missions by hiring and deploying SF retirees. I've spent range time with them repeatedly. They do not use the term "accidental discharge," there are only "negligent discharges" which get you kicked off an A-team for at least a year if there was no injury or damage. So that made me doubt you. 

Cops have TONS more training than the average concealed carry person? Yes and no. The average cop gets zero training in concealed carry. I'll agree there are lots of CCWs with basically no real training, but I've seen my god son go thru cop school and I've been at the range where local cops do their annual re-cert. Their training is little better than the average Joe. 

Then there are your stats. Are you aware that 79.36% of stats quoted on the internet are made up? :smack Cite some sources, please.


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## DEKE01

JeepHammer said:


> Your chances are 1:370 million at any given day of your life to be present at a crime requiring a firearm to be fired....




There's another stat that is bogus. The US population is about 330M, IIRC. With your stat, less than one person in the whole of the US on any given day is present at a crime requiring a firearm to be fired. Turn on the local news tonight in any large city and you'll be proven wrong many times over. 

So now I have to make an adjustment, 79.39% of all internet stats are bogus. 

I smell a liberal sock puppet.


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## Oldshep

I'm no expert here, just a lay-person and a gunowner. I rarely carry but when I do, I don't keep one in the chamber. I just feel that the safety factor out weighs the possibility that I'm going to need to draw and fire a half second faster.

I want as much time as possible to be certain before I even consider firing at somebody. Quick shooting sounds like a recipe for disaster.


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