# rethinking previous ammo/caliber choices



## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Maybe not here is the place, but since we originally discussed it here I am adding.

A while back, We joked and I made at the time an "outlandish" price list of what I was going to do. Well it seems my outlandish was "under valued" 

Originally, Many people think that stockpiling "common" calibers is a benefit, but this recent "scare" got me thinking- If every time there is a rush on ammo/guns I may be unable to get 223, why should I bother except that I had a very "healthy" supply on hand and multiple rifles that utilized it. Well I turned those 3 rifles and my ammo storage and magazine storage into a very very healthy and in fact somewhat obese windfall. I was able to triple my ammo storage for other calibers, buy 2 30-30's which i could still find on shelves, a new youth shotgun and still buy a completely finished carport barn for my goats. and oh yeah put money in savings, pay off a credit card and have a couple nice dinners with the family. 

Now tomorrow, I am trading ammo that cost me $200 no valued at $400 for an sks that was $150 now valued at $400. and picking up a PSL which isn't inflated in price to badly and I was able to log in and replenish my Russian ammo almost instantly at "normal" prices. 

Int he stores here in OK a very friendly gun state the shelves have stockpiles of "big bore" in stock
7mm
30-06
45-70
10mm
8mm mauser
etc etc etc

but none of your previously thought of "common caliber"
22lr
38spc
357mag
9mm
223
45acp/colt etc
40
7.62x39 (some but limited in stores)

still tons of shotgun ammo though but very little 00 or slugs mostly target and leftover turkey loads. etc.

I reload for 9mm/45 acp/38spc/30-30 and soon even gonna try loading for the ruskies. Maybe just maybe our thought process is twisted, maybe we should be looking at some of the "oddballs" out and reloading for them a stockpile of 30cal bullets could go a long way (.308-.312 in various weights) for multiple guns. and k31 swiss, 7mm,7.7 jap etc are all surplus guns for the cheap and can be made very very accurate and deadly for 2 legged and 4 legged critters alike. 

The likelihood of finding an abandoned stash of .223 without having to "do something you may regret" to get it is unlikely, So its either way you have on hand, or can make(cast) . Maybe a 10/20 rnd sks mag is more than sufficient for a truck/hunting/shtf rifle and you can stack em deep and cheap and practice practice practice. 

I may be "limiting myself" in lead slinging ability-but i think im making up for it in reliability and common sense. (and nto really limited as I still have drums for the ak's and sks) now if only i could find a 30rnd mag for a psl lol.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Good dealing :hobbyhorsBefore my boat sank i had plenty of everything . If i still had it i would sit on is as i don't like dealing with many people and have little debt or needs .
But turning o good deal is always good .Should someone show up looking for a gun fight the odds of winning at this point is not good so a thousand rounds will go a long way .


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

I guess it kind of came off on a boast side, where really i intended it to be a shift of thought away from "common" calibers and the way we think. its not just having 1000 rounds, its have plenty of the right ammunition for the job at hand. This point in time I would not be trading away any soft point/HP/ hunting type ammo. But even in a shortage shooting a little each month is a pleasurable "chore" that can eat up a stash quick if you do not watch it.


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## gotlabs (Dec 16, 2012)

My thought process was have a lot of guns, but minimize the caliber. Before this epidemic I limited handguns to 38/357, 44, 45, 9mm and 22lr, I've sold all but the 22lr. My long gun stash was the same.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I have been thinking if i can't cast for it , it can sit and collect dust for now 
well except for the 22lr 

on the other hand i was at my dealer today he has tons of ammo ordered , he was one of the last ones to still have most every thing on the shelf hopefully some day soon a 100k will show up at his door and i can get some more 22lr 

in the mean time at least he has primers from the masses of them he ordered while they were impossible to find


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

"Some" people think .223, and .40 are the calibers to keep, as their most likely enemy will have plenty to replenish their cache.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Ozarks Tom said:


> "Some" people think .223, and .40 are the calibers to keep, as their most likely enemy will have plenty to replenish their cache.


Exactly what my thoughts where, now I have realized the exact opposite and am prepping doing the

1. If I have it I have it, if I do not have it, I will not have it
2. A couple "oddballs" that I have personally seen ammo still on the shelves for during a mad dash for purchasing. 
3. More "bulk" components that can be used in multiple re-loads. 

Also, I am making a note of "scare" prices which I feel may be closer to what "barter" value may be down the road. (somehwat like this)

22lr ammo- about a 30-40% markup compared to "normal" so about the equal of a "dime" for bulk pack
9mm ammo- lower markup but getting 20% markup easy- "about 30 cents"
45 acp-stable at .50 a round
7.62x39 35 cents a round
223/5.56 75-100 cents a round
308 100-200 cents a round for quality
I know its a weird way to think about it, but I never before considered ammo during "normal times" to be a bartering tool, now Im trading it for actual firearms/cash/services. 

These are in no way meant to be "real numbers" but more of a thought pattern I am trying to adopt of placing material value on items that ive always considered "fluff". Nothing is ever worth more than someone will pay for it, but there is almost always someone who will pay something for everything.


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## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

bluetogreens said:


> Exactly what my thoughts where, now I have realized the exact opposite and am prepping doing the
> 
> 1. If I have it I have it, if I do not have it, I will not have it
> 2. A couple "oddballs" that I have personally seen ammo still on the shelves for during a mad dash for purchasing.
> ...



Only one I don't agree with is the .22lr bulk. Here prices have only gone up about 1.50 on the Remington and Winchester 525s and 555s. Here though 9mm went up around 40%


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> on the other hand i was at my dealer today he has tons of ammo ordered , he was one of the last ones to still have most every thing on the shelf hopefully some day soon a 100k will show up at his door and i can get some more 22lr


One of my local gun shops received 140,000 rounds of .22 LR last Friday. He still has lots of other ammo on the shelf including most calibers. No limits on the amount you can buy then, but may be on Monday. Some were buying four case at $250 each case (5000 rounds).


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## greenstar (Dec 10, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with your thinking. Sounds like you have made out pretty well. There is no be all - end all. Your sks and 30/30 may be what works best for you. I think we sometimes get caught up in the groupthink. As far as your observations on the common calibers being hard to find, they cannot be found at a decent price around my area. For example bricks of 22 that were selling for 14 can only be found at gun shows for $80. And people are buying. Eventually it will effect all calibers unless somwthing changes soon. We didnt sell a single ar at the show yesterday but we sold a bunch of lever actions in 30/30 and 45/70. Sks and ak were selling pretty well also.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

I hope nothing pans out on this and I end up seeing ammo in yard/garage sales going dirt cheap! I can remember one time when I found about 20 boxes of .22 shorts for only .10cents a box. I bought all of them and they have lasted for years. Shot many squirrels with them.


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

You didn't mention what the 3 rifles were that were chambered for .223 but I am going to assume here that at least 1 of them was an AR of one flavor or another. If true then giving it up for a 30-30 leaves me scratching my head more than a little bit. 

AR's, or at least most of them, are built to mil-spec standards. This means that they are built to withstand some heavy abuse as well as a 20,000 to 25,000 round barrel life among other things. There isn't a 30-30 built that can take that kind of punishment. The lever action alone is a weak link. The limited ammo capacity, lack of quick change magazines, limited range of the caliber and ammo cost all add up to a poor choice in a survival gun.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Slatewiper said:


> You didn't mention what the 3 rifles were that were chambered for .223 but I am going to assume here that at least 1 of them was an AR of one flavor or another. If true then giving it up for a 30-30 leaves me scratching my head more than a little bit.
> 
> AR's, or at least most of them, are built to mil-spec standards. This means that they are built to withstand some heavy abuse as well as a 20,000 to 25,000 round barrel life among other things. There isn't a 30-30 built that can take that kind of punishment. The lever action alone is a weak link. The limited ammo capacity, lack of quick change magazines, limited range of the caliber and ammo cost all add up to a poor choice in a survival gun.



I can see your point , but if you cast it can be a real game changer , 30-30 is very cast bullet friendly , it carries the same energy to target at 100 yards with a light load that can be loaded for less than a dime a round , and barrel life of cast lead rifles 50-75,000 rounds wouldn't be out of the question and the brass lasts and lasts.

social acceptability if you run around with a AR you attract attention , a 30-30 lever attracts little or no attention 

I would rather have both , but day to day i see the 223 sitting in the safe a lot and the 30-30 getting used.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Slatewiper said:


> You didn't mention what the 3 rifles were that were chambered for .223 but I am going to assume here that at least 1 of them was an AR of one flavor or another. If true then giving it up for a 30-30 leaves me scratching my head more than a little bit.
> 
> AR's, or at least most of them, are built to mil-spec standards. This means that they are built to withstand some heavy abuse as well as a 20,000 to 25,000 round barrel life among other things. There isn't a 30-30 built that can take that kind of punishment. The lever action alone is a weak link. The limited ammo capacity, lack of quick change magazines, limited range of the caliber and ammo cost all add up to a poor choice in a survival gun.


Actually 2 of them were AR's and mid range ones at that. The third was an FS2000. Barrells are only truely rated to the 10-15K round range except for the FS a bit less because of the heavier bullets I shot in it. before it would be considered "blown out" not where i would of retired them but competition wise. 

AR's in my limited 16+ years experience shooting them are "good" rifles, not great not perfect, not even ideal for the majority of situations for daily life. I can use it to put food on the table, I could use it for defense, I could use it for offense etc like a leatherman multi-tool it does a lot of jobs "sufficiently" but probally is not the end all be all job for any of them. 

For "protection" purposes an AK is GASP superior to the AR-more reliable even with all MX being followed in perfect circumstances etc. the AR's are finicky with ammo/loads/weights etc. My FS hated 55gr and below anything, my low end DPMS spit brass and steel no problem. the armalite hated steel, the bushmaster tolerated steel, loved 55-62gr milsurp, but again match ammo choked it. ( of course I knew all this going into them so they are not complaints or knocks against the platform just my personal observations/purposes) 

The SKS's The AK's The PSL, 30-30's, 308's etc. I can reload with the same bullet if necessary (no pointed in tube fed obviously) and only accuracy suffers with non perfect matches not FUNCTION. Now to say at any point a lever gun is less reliable than any semi-automatic is crazy talk as any problem can happen any time with any action, BUT it is a common acceptance that semi's are inherently less reliable than others. 

Now lets talk "range", I live in central Oklahoma with light rolling hills and heavy brush, from the top of my barn I have a clear line of sight in the 500yd range. An AR type rifle would have an advantage here, if I did my part. On the ground with my pasture lay out/neighbors homes etc- the max Line of sight is closer to 200-300yds- more than capable with even the "lowly" 30-30 with proper aim and ammunition. and unless all hell breaks loose I will never need to make a 500yd shot, and IF I do the PSL, Mosin, 308 bolt etc. are more than capable and again BETTER than the 223. 

Now lets discuss the "my part", I have my marksmanship ribbon, i at one time could do my part, now Im handicap at 34yrs old and cannot perfom in the variety of stances required for military quals-nor can I do it for fun/compeition. So I get by with "minute of pie plate" at 125-150yds which is my back yard. 

I did not "give up" 223 for the 30-30, I purchased 30-30's with funds from giving up on .223. I have high capacity on several other rifles, I have long range on other rifles, and now I have intermediate, moderate capacity, no chance of loosing a magazine, fun to shoot set of lever guns. That my wife enjoys more than the AR's. I also have more guns in a caliber of bullet I routinely stock, that use the same powder and primers I can get easily even in these times etc. 

I have trusted my life to the m-16/m4 and have no issues with the rifle, but it is hardly "ideal" for SHTF, as the IDEAL weapon for SHTF is whichever one you have that you have practiced with, have a stockpile of ammo/parts accessories for. I am a disabled vet goat farmer with teenagers and an infant and a petite flower of a wife- Not rambo- I am not going to storm supply caches in dallas, nor would I stand any greater chance of surviving on onslaught of roving marauders with an AR vs any other rifle if I do my part.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Let me also state, IF i was only concerned with "protection" or if I was in a situation where I could only have 1-2 rifles the AR is a GREAT choice. It is multi-purpose, it is precise, it isnt as unreliable as some would make it out to be if properly cared for, during normal times you can get reliable and precise ones in the <1000 price range etc. But since I am not in that situation and "prefer" the 30 caliber round and have applied my local area, limitations and expectations to my desires/needs the AK as an intermediate battle rifle won for me. The AR may one day grace my safes again if the situation changes but for now, I am looking at things differently.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

I also have noticed my relying more for target shooting using my Soviet-Bloc weapons such as the several Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbines in the 7.62X54mm caliber out to 300 yards. I saw that the military surplus sealed spam cans of ammunition for them are still available at a reasonable price on line. Yet I am not seeing any Soviet-Bloc surplus ammo in 7.62X25mm Tokarev anywhere on line. Or if it is available, it is now 3 times the price that I had paid for my spam cans a few years ago. Also there is still a lot of .30-06 Springfield (sport or surplus ammo) available on line, or in the local stores for my firearms that use it.

But the other day I was looking locally for some .38 special or .357 magnum ammunition and none was to be found on the empty shelves. Plus none was to be found on line, without an unreal waitng period for new stock to be shipped. I do have a couple of lever action carbines (Winchester and Marlin) chambered for those pistol rounds, and recently I have been carrying one of them and one of my Ruger revolvers around the property. I like the idea of only having to carry one type of ammunition around for both weapons. In the past I had sold off my Winchester 1894 .30-30 and with the new prices in my 2013 Winchester catalog, I doubt that I will be getting a new firearm in that caliber. Heck in my latest Winchester catalog - a new in the box Winchester model 94 carbine chambered in .30-30 has a suggested list price of $1,199.99 dollars! A Winchester model 1892 carbine chambered in .357 magnum is listed at $1,159.99 which is almost 3 times as much as when I bought my new in the box Winchester model 94AE in .357 magnum a few years ago for $399.99!

I am still happy with the caliber choices that I had made years ago, with at least 4 firearms per caliber - such as 9mm parabellum, .357 magnum/ .38 special, 7.62X25mm Tokarev for handguns and .30-06 Springfield 7.62X54mm and of course several rifles and pistols in .22LR. Of course I decided on those calibers long ago, and was able to not have to pay the increased/ inflated prices for weapons or ammunition that are seen these days. 

So I will stay with what resides in my gun safes/ ammo storage.

I had been issued a M-16A1 chambered in 5.56mm when I was in the Marine Corps (0311 and 0331) and I repeatedly qualified as "Rifle Sharpshooter" with it, and I have never been very impressed with that weapon platform or the caliber.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

With this thread in mind I looked at the local Walmart, 30-06 & 270 were most common. Next were 22 mag, 7.62X39, 22-250, 7 & 300 mag, 243 & 30-30. After that was a scattering of less popular rounds like 25-06 & 338 mag. In the pistol rounds 380, 44mag & 45 long colt were most common. 25 & 45 ACP were next. One box each of 357 & 40.


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I can see your point , but if you cast it can be a real game changer , 30-30 is very cast bullet friendly , it carries the same energy to target at 100 yards with a light load that can be loaded for less than a dime a round , and barrel life of cast lead rifles 50-75,000 rounds wouldn't be out of the question and the brass lasts and lasts.
> 
> social acceptability if you run around with a AR you attract attention , a 30-30 lever attracts little or no attention
> 
> I would rather have both , but day to day i see the 223 sitting in the safe a lot and the 30-30 getting used.


And once the shtf how important will social acceptability be then? When your life is on the line are you still going to pass up the AR and grab that 30-30? Can you honestly say that a 30-30 is as good or better for self defense than an AR? If that were true why doesn't the military still carry lever actions insteading of dumping them over 100 years ago for something better like the 1903?I don't own Ar's for any other reason than that they are very effective killing tools. They were designed that way from the ground up, 30-30's were not. Aside from that the last time I priced 30-30 ammo it was running about 3x what .223 was.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Slatewiper said:


> And once the shtf how important will social acceptability be then? When your life is on the line are you still going to pass up the AR and grab that 30-30? Can you honestly say that a 30-30 is as good or better for self defense than an AR? If that were true why doesn't the military still carry lever actions insteading of dumping them over 100 years ago for something better like the 1903?I don't own Ar's for any other reason than that they are very effective killing tools. They were designed that way from the ground up, 30-30's were not. Aside from that the last time I priced 30-30 ammo it was running about 3x what .223 was.


I think you missed the part where i load 100 30-30 for about 7 dollars and they create so little wear on the barrel that barrel life should go way beyond typical ,and while i can see his logic he also said he kept his 30 cal rifles like the sks and AK and others he just went to needing a single projectile size ,nope when social acceptability is no longer needed , I will be right there with the 30 round mags , but no point in using up that stuff till then 223 is costing me about 26 cents a round or 26 dollars the hundred 



like bluetogreens said for him 30 cal will work fine


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

In an absolutely worst case scenario (TEOTWAWKI) those common calibers will still be common, and uncommon will be just that, uncommon. The odds of finding a single cartridge of 7.7 Jap, or any other foreign 'uncommon' cartridge, in such a PAW would be slim to none (at least anywhere near here).

I do have some oddballs, but I also had (burned in the fire) cases of ammo for them (several lifetimes worth). If I did go with an oddball, I'd do the same thing again... get thousands of rounds.

Trouble (or so I've been told) with reloading foreign military cartridges is many are berdan primed (muy difficult to reload) and the rifles beat the cases up pretty bad... even if you do 'find' some brass cases.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Also not bad to know what cartridges can be used to for others. For example 30-06 can be cut down, reform and bullet & powder replaced to make rounds that will function in a 308.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

texican said:


> Trouble (or so I've been told) with reloading foreign military cartridges is many are berdan primed (muy difficult to reload) and the rifles beat the cases up pretty bad... even if you do 'find' some brass cases.


the trouble is more finding brass cases there is a berdan primer removal tool http://www.midwayusa.com/product/245983/rcbs-berdan-decapping-tool, if you have a little skill a brass beridian case can be made a boxer case for use with moderate loads well at least 7.62x54 can it has thick enough brass to form it
but you need the right size drill bit and a primer pocket swagger a drill press and a bunch of time then you regard those cases like gold , so just ordering some boxer brass and taking good care of it with moderate loads starts to look good.

the Fins figured out a bunch of this back in the day. clever bunch they reused a lot of the soviets hardware against them


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

I actually have a few hundred brass x39 and x54r each and building up stash now. 
Yes slate in the event of societal collapse a ar would be more effective for defense than a 30-30, but so would an AK, SKS, ar-10, etc. 

You are hung up on the thought i got out of 223 for 30-30 when I did not, I got out of it because I could make a huge profit on my stockpile and build/establish/triple my stockpile in other calibers. When prices comes back down however, I will probally still wait on 223 and work on ar-10's instead. (or 5.45x39 if i really want a 22 cal poodle shooter). 

Meanwhile being well stock with high capacity magazines and firearms in the 30 cal variants I do not feel under gunned should society collapse in the next 6-9 months.

Think of it this way- say your a precious medals trader
there is a huge run on gold and you happen to have a ton of it-you also know you can buy silver at the exact same time at a lower price than "market". you sell your gold-spend it all on silver and watch as the silver market climbs. No doubt that gold would be handy if situation x or y occurs, but silver would do the same/better/maybe slightly worse and now you have more of it at a higher overall dollar value than you had of gold to begin with.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

30-06 can make a lot of cartridges , as can 308 
both 8mm Mauser and 7.7 jap can be made from 30-06 cases 

as well as cartridges that 30-06 was the parent for , like 25-06 338-06 270 35 whelen, others like 257 roberts , 250 savage ,280 rem that can be made from and that doesn't even start into wild cats like the acky improved suff then 308 parents a hole line of short action cartriges like 356 win 358 win , 7mm-08 22-250 , 243 , 260 rem then like 300 savage it is hard to decide what came first the chicken or the egg it was around before the 308 but would be easier to make from 308 than 30-06

some get their lineage directly form 30-06 or 308 others just happen to be close enough you can make one from the other

every one of these shares the same bolt face , makes for not needing a lot fo shell holders to hold a lot of cartridges , it also makes for a bunch of guns that can be rebarreled to a hole lot of things with a set of head space gauges and a barrel nut wrench


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I think you missed the part where i load 100 30-30 for about 7 dollars and they create so little wear on the barrel that barrel life should go way beyond typical ,and while i can see his logic he also said he kept his 30 cal rifles like the sks and AK and others he just went to needing a single projectile size ,nope when social acceptability is no longer needed , I will be right there with the 30 round mags , but no point in using up that stuff till then 223 is costing me about 26 cents a round or 26 dollars the hundred
> 
> 
> 
> like bluetogreens said for him 30 cal will work fine


I reload as well. Before things got crazy I could buy bulk 55gr .223 projectiles for a little over .10 cents a piece. Using once fired brass I could reload for about 17 cents per round. I would end up with a FLAT shooting round traveling roughly 3100 fps capable of killing at ranges up to 800 yds if the shooter does his part. It is fired out of a rifle that is simplicity itself to mount optics on, attach a bipod to, flashlights etc. In other words I can configure it any way I want in moments. 

Hopefully the panic we are seeing now will be over before long and things will return to normal (whatever that is). It seems to me that every time a panic hits people want to reinvent the wheel all over again. Why not take advantage of the research of people more intelligent on the subject than you and I and just ride things out?


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Slatewiper said:


> Why not take advantage of the research of people more intelligent on the subject than you and I and just ride things out?



Thats exactly what i did, I bought low and sold high. You throw a lot of perfect case scenerio's out there for your love of the AR. I applaud your passion. But the sad truth is the 55gr pill MAX AREA EFFECTIVE RANGE IS 600 meters. the ak 47 is 350 meters. etc etc. You can hang any selection fo any attachment off any rifle or keep them as sleek as you like etc. 

My psl effective is 1000M which is =/> than the off the shelf 308. bolt. 

Once again the AR is an awesome weapon and for the purpose of killing people it woudl do the job- but no way is it an 800yd gun, the army does not trust the designated marksman with a 223 he needs a 30-06/308 etc. Nor can it take a deer reliably outside 150-200 yards. 

I mean I am only using balistic tables and military training manuals and personnel experience as my guiding factor. NOW ALL OF THIS GOES OUT THE WINDOW IF YUO HAVE AN ACTUAL FUN BUTTON M4/15.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Would be nice to have something like this:

http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkConvertible/models.html

Then you could shoot .357, 38 spl., 38 S&W, 9x19. I bet I could even figure out a way to make .380 go BANG.

In the same vein...in WWII the French resistance would take 9x19 ammo and peen out the rim, so that the lip would catch in a 38 revolver. Over-pressure? Probably - but it worked.

Lastly...if you are really hard up against it, there are still guns available that will do an admirable job with cast bullets, black powder and even primers "reconstituted" from strike anywhere matches. A handi-rifle in 45-70 or a lever in 32 win special would be nice to have, going that route...


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

The basic rule of thumb is that anything 'automatic' is going to be less reliable ( break more and be harder to fix ) than anything 'manual'. Someone mentioned that the army 'gave up' on lever action in favor of semi-autos 100 years ago. That may be true but the army has access to gunsmiths, relations with the dealers and an unlimited access to parts. When the semiauto breaks the soldier hands it in and gets issued another one. I don't have a gunsmith on hand and a cozy relationship with the gun manufacturer. If TSHTF I may not have ANY access to parts or a manufacturer. What the lay person needs are guns that are *simple*, and *reliable*. Something with a simple action that wont break or can be repaired at home. I prefer bolt action/ lever action long arms. I prefer SINGLE ACTION revolvers. Guns that can be dropped in a river for a week, picked up and shot.

IMO there might be a lot of high powered semi-automatic dust collectors hanging around after a TEOTWAWKI event.

I also agree with the OP about less popular ammo choices. There is still plenty of 30-30/30-06/308 on the shelves. Bottom line, when the chips are down the gun that functions and is LOADED beats the malfunctioning empty gun any day. I would take a loaded flintlock over an empty, or jammed AK 47 any day of the week.


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## fishinshawn (Nov 8, 2010)

Give me a shotgun to take care of stuff up close and personal and a Bolt action rifle for distance. Lets face it if we do face a SHTF scenario it won't take long before there are plenty more guns then people.....


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Darntootin said:


> The basic rule of thumb is that anything 'automatic' is going to be less reliable ( break more and be harder to fix ) than anything 'manual'. Someone mentioned that the army 'gave up' on lever action in favor of semi-autos 100 years ago. That may be true but the army has access to gunsmiths, relations with the dealers and an unlimited access to parts. When the semiauto breaks the soldier hands it in and gets issued another one. I don't have a gunsmith on hand and a cozy relationship with the gun manufacturer. If TSHTF I may not have ANY access to parts or a manufacturer. What the lay person needs are guns that are *simple*, and *reliable*. Something with a simple action that wont break or can be repaired at home. I prefer bolt action/ lever action long arms. I prefer SINGLE ACTION revolvers. Guns that can be dropped in a river for a week, picked up and shot.
> 
> IMO there might be a lot of high powered semi-automatic dust collectors hanging around after a TEOTWAWKI event.
> 
> I also agree with the OP about less popular ammo choices. There is still plenty of 30-30/30-06/308 on the shelves. Bottom line, when the chips are down the gun that functions and is LOADED beats the malfunctioning empty gun any day. I would take a loaded flintlock over an empty, or jammed AK 47 any day of the week.


You are mistaken, a 1911 or hi power is much simpler than a single action revolver and more rugged. In fact Filipinos have been making them with nothing but hand tools for at least forty years. The "hard" part of making automatic weapons is the receiver, but even with that most could be be made from solid blocks of metal with hand tools or stamped out of sheet metal.


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## uhcrandy (Sep 16, 2010)

Honestly, if I had to choose ONE gun. I would choose a bolt action 30-06, for TEOTWAWKI situation. Simple, few parts to break, powerfull enough for distance, or close work.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Darntootin said:


> The basic rule of thumb is that anything 'automatic' is going to be less reliable ( break more and be harder to fix ) than anything 'manual'. Someone mentioned that the army 'gave up' on lever action in favor of semi-autos 100 years ago. That may be true but the army has access to gunsmiths, relations with the dealers and an unlimited access to parts. When the semiauto breaks the soldier hands it in and gets issued another one. I don't have a gunsmith on hand and a cozy relationship with the gun manufacturer. If TSHTF I may not have ANY access to parts or a manufacturer. What the lay person needs are guns that are *simple*, and *reliable*. Something with a simple action that wont break or can be repaired at home. I prefer bolt action/ lever action long arms. I prefer SINGLE ACTION revolvers. Guns that can be dropped in a river for a week, picked up and shot.
> 
> IMO there might be a lot of high powered semi-automatic dust collectors hanging around after a TEOTWAWKI event.
> 
> I also agree with the OP about less popular ammo choices. There is still plenty of 30-30/30-06/308 on the shelves. Bottom line, when the chips are down the gun that functions and is LOADED beats the malfunctioning empty gun any day. I would take a loaded flintlock over an empty, or jammed AK 47 any day of the week.


I can agree with much of this, except the Ak-47 part...They ain't known for jamming...My take on this, is one must get the best that one can afford...In my case, I own 3 semi-automatic 22's(long rifle and hollow point shells), 10 shot clips, 1 single shot bolt action 22(will shoot any round, long, shorts, mags and hollow points), two pump 12 gauge shotguns with field barrels( number 6 game loads),a single shot 410 gauge(also set for game load) and 7mm Mouser Carbine, to "reach out and touch 'em" long range.
I think all that I own will do just fine for self defense(a 22 hollow point can do a number on a person)and general game hunting(no sense eating all my livestock before the game is all gone).
I think folks are underestimating what can and no doubt will be done, with the "cheaper, less attractive" weapons.


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

everyone needs a boat!!


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

uhcrandy said:


> Honestly, if I had to choose ONE gun. I would choose a bolt action 30-06, for TEOTWAWKI situation. Simple, few parts to break, powerfull enough for distance, or close work.



You'd better start praying that you never have to deal with more than a couple of bad guys at a time. You get attacked by no more than 5-6 you are going to be in a world of hurt.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Slatewiper said:


> You'd better start praying that you never have to deal with more than a couple of bad guys at a time. You get attacked by no more than 5-6 you are going to be in a world of hurt.


If I am alone and get attacked by 5-6-chances are even if they had bolt actions, i would be outgunned. If i have my family/neighbors even with bolt actions and am defending a fixed position-then we are more than even matched against 5-6 with semi auto's. 

If there is a total breakdown and there are roving gangs of heavily armed folks-it would be best to have a silenced 22lr and a crowbar to use to remove sewer grates and get outta dodge. 

If your semi-smart, you all ready live 10-15 miles or more from major population centers, you have a working knowledge of the terrain within 1-2 miles of your home base, and you know at the least where your immediate neighbors stand politically/religiously. an armory a case of mre's and a poor man's james bond cookbook (actually a really great book btw) is not gonna make a lick of difference, if you do not have:

1. A plan
2. People around you that support said plan or variants there of
3. Distance from large groups
4. knowledge and a steady head
5. A stockpile of which to work on. I hate doomsday preppers, but their new "grading" system always faults people for not having the "staying power" required to truley live after the "survival" part is gone. 
6. Preferably some experience dealing with crisis/stress working. I suggest paintball/volunteer firefighting/orderly work at local ER. try to get ride alongs with PD's etc. Basically any thought/movement required set of activities that will test your mental capabilities under stress. Some of us are "blessed" by having "combat" experience or alert aircraft experience or living in a cave 100feet below south korea while the north tests their missiles. But those are not the only way to get your mind "trained".

7. along with an effective semi-auto for mid range interdiction, you WILL need other weapons that can do stuff better and know how to use them. 
An AR is an excellent weapon- but it would be best to put 1-200 rounds downrange a quarter to maintain proffiency, not to mention all the time you need to spend maintaining the rifle, practicing mags waps, SPORTS drills etc. 

If I was in perfect health, a 30-30 or 30-06 or mosin nagant and my brain on my property, I would have some confidence in my ability to defend against 3-4 mall ninja's with everything from the cheaper than dirt china mart catalog.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You get attacked by no more than* 5-6* you are going to be in a world of hurt.


Most bolt guns hold 5 rounds.
Only good HITS count

More wars were fought with single shots and bolts than other types of firearms


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Most bolt guns hold 5 rounds.
> Only good HITS count
> 
> More wars were fought with single shots and bolts than other types of firearms


There is not a drastic difference in 5 to 10 shots downrange with a semi and bolt at 100 yards....the semi is semi faster, but in a real world situation, not paper targets at the range........the 2 would be alot more even than one would think.....

It all comes down to practice and training....well trained and practiced bolt VS minimal skill/training semi is no contest at a range or otherwise.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ignlbn1-wg0[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX6Twd0Rkpc[/ame]


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

Guy in the first vid had to take his eye off the target every time he racked the bolt. Another thing I find interesting in these kinds of vids is the fact that they NEVER show the target after their done. Guy in the second vid wasn't even shooting at a target and wasn't all that particularly fast to begin with. Poor choices in vids for trying to prove a point.

Training is important but all other things being equal he who has the best gun wins in the end. Period.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Slatewiper said:


> Guy in the first vid had to take his eye off the target every time he racked the bolt. Another thing I find interesting in these kinds of vids is the fact that they NEVER show the target after their done. Guy in the second vid wasn't even shooting at a target and wasn't all that particularly fast to begin with. Poor choices in vids for trying to prove a point.
> 
> Training is important but all other things being equal he who has the best gun wins in the end. Period.


I will agree that everything being equal the best gun wins- your job as a person planning to survive/overcome is to make sure that nothing is ever equal. Make sure your not alone, starving, desperate, irrational, angry, dehydrated, mentally spent.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

shawnlee said:


> There is not a drastic difference in 5 to 10 shots downrange with a semi and bolt at 100 yards....the semi is semi faster, but in a real world situation, not paper targets at the range........the 2 would be alot more even than one would think.....
> 
> It all comes down to practice and training....well trained and practiced bolt VS minimal skill/training semi is no contest at a range or otherwise.
> 
> ...


The first video is misleading because its a straight pull (swiss Schmidt rubin to be exact) which is faster than the turn bolt. The second vid the guy had crappy technique and actually could have been faster & more accurate if he left the rifle in his shoulder. But it takes a lot of time & effort to learn proper technique. OTH freshman from the high school of your choice can be taught proper technique for a semi in about 1/2 an hour and have the muscle memory in a week or less. Either way it's still nonsense, no human being can operate ANY bolt action faster than a semi. I agree that a trained shooter that knows what they are doing can be just as effective at distance with a bolt action. But multiple targets at less than 100 yds (MOST combat takes place at this range) the semi will completely out class the bolt every time.
The three rules of survival/victory in combat are shoot, move and communicate. The semi can lay down a base of fire that would require a fire team plus of bolt shooters to provide and is equally accurate for killing shots. Two trained men with semis can outfight a fireteam with bolt actions on firepower alone. Most military style semi rifles are lighter than most military style bolt rifles by several pounds & shorter by a good foot or more. This makes them easier to carry in a combat ready or combat alert position for longer and easier to maneuver inside buildings, fighting holes & dense undergrowth. Most military bolt actions are chambered for larger rounds than most military style semi rifles. Bigger rounds have bigger booms (especially inside buildings) which adversely affects your ability to hear instructions & warnings. So the semi pretty much wins in all three areas.
So while I feel confident I could clean out the local police station with my Mauser, if I actually had to do it, I'd rather have a Garand, FAL or G3.
ETA: for combat purposes only, I'd take a pump over a bolt any day. Similar speed of operation and not screwing up my firing technique by moving my firing hand.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Training is important but all other things being equal he who has the best gun wins in the end. Period.


The "best gun" depends on the precise scenario


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

In my opinion, most of this is mute point till it actually happens, since nobody is currently shooting BACK at any of us.
Unless a person has been involved in a war of some kind, and learned from such, how can any of us not involved in such be experts?
I have heard folks tout such things as paintball as good training, but paintball won't kill you, and folks know this full well going into it and during it.
Targets do not shoot back at you, neither.
IMHO, folks just need to prepare the best they can, with whatever they can afford, and hope that when the time arrives, they never have to use much of the "artillery" they have collected.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Hairsheep said:


> In my opinion, most of this is mute point till it actually happens, since nobody is currently shooting BACK at any of us.
> Unless a person has been involved in a war of some kind, and learned from such, how can any of us not involved in such be experts?
> I have heard folks tout such things as paintball as good training, but paintball won't kill you, and folks know this full well going into it and during it.
> Targets do not shoot back at you, neither.
> IMHO, folks just need to prepare the best they can, with whatever they can afford, and hope that when the time arrives, they never have to use much of the "artillery" they have collected.


Actually, i tout paintball as a mental trainer- It teaches critical thinking under stressful situations. and Whereas I have not experienced direct "combat" I have been shelled, rocket attacked, and launched aircraft under fire. Also I lived in Atlanta for a period of time. You say prepare the best you can- I say placing yourself in stressful situations where you have to use your brain is a viable and the closest your gonna get without enlisting.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I picked those videos specifically because they were not practiced experts....just showing what normal people can do easily ,with some relativly outdated weapons and minimal training.

A bolt will never be as quick on the clock as a semi, but there is alot of ground that can be made up inbetween to level the playing field...........one of the most being a good head on ones shoulders and practice/training.

This is some of the best in the world with what is considered slower or outdated weapons.....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au2V1U5hFyc[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6MKWMdxixM[/ame]


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Hairsheep said:


> In my opinion, most of this is mute point till it actually happens, since nobody is currently shooting BACK at any of us.
> Unless a person has been involved in a war of some kind, and learned from such, how can any of us not involved in such be experts?
> I have heard folks tout such things as paintball as good training, but paintball won't kill you, and folks know this full well going into it and during it.
> Targets do not shoot back at you, neither.
> IMHO, folks just need to prepare the best they can, with whatever they can afford, and hope that when the time arrives, they never have to use much of the "artillery" they have collected.


Many of us favoring semiautomatic rifles for the general public ARE combat veterans.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

shawnlee said:


> I picked those videos specifically because they were not practiced experts....just showing what normal people can do easily ,with some relativly outdated weapons and minimal training.
> 
> A bolt will never be as quick on the clock as a semi, but there is alot of ground that can be made up inbetween to level the playing field...........one of the most being a good head on ones shoulders and practice/training.
> 
> ...


And the AVERAGE shooter will never have that speed and ability.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

shawnlee said:


> I picked those videos specifically because they were not practiced experts....just showing what normal people can do easily ,with some relativly outdated weapons and minimal training.
> 
> A bolt will never be as quick on the clock as a semi, but there is alot of ground that can be made up inbetween to level the playing field...........one of the most being a good head on ones shoulders and practice/training.
> 
> ...


Using your logic, we should all just go to bows and arrows because of what this one guy can do.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&desktop_uri=/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ggDfJLB8jTk&desktop_uri=/watch?v=ggDfJLB8jTk


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> Many of us favoring semiautomatic rifles for the general public ARE combat veterans.


I am not a combat veteran, however, I was in the Service.
I am in no way NOT recommending semiautomatic weapons.
What I AM recommending is buying within your means.
Theres a BIG price difference between an AR-15 and a 22 Cal rifle.
One must also, think of other factors beside guns/ammo, like shelter, food and water.
IF you are by yourself, these needs become MUCH smaller during SHTF situation.
If on the other hand,one must spend your hard gotten gains, on wife and children, then one must down grade to a cheaper weapon that will have to do: Bottom Line.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

bluetogreens said:


> Actually, i tout paintball as a mental trainer- It teaches critical thinking under stressful situations. and Whereas I have not experienced direct "combat" I have been shelled, rocket attacked, and launched aircraft under fire. Also I lived in Atlanta for a period of time. You say prepare the best you can- I say placing yourself in stressful situations where you have to use your brain is a viable and the closest your gonna get without enlisting.


War ain't a game, where one has fun with a "gun".
What stress could possibly be involved?
You know full well, you'll leave that area(paintball) alive, and uninjured, minus some nicks and bruises.
I have been into some terrible areas of cities too(Detroit, Philadelphia, etc), but even these do not compare to the brutality, and the mental expects of REAL war situations.
One can SAY they will do this and that, but one will only know when it happens.
I reckon, there are many more aspects to SHTF situation, beyond just weapons/ammo, one will have to adjust to those aspects.
I am well armed, yet not nearly so as many(according to some here), but more importantly, i have shelter with a wood burning stove, a well, and livestock.
I also have a room full of canned/dry goods, and the shells I have works well for game as well.
I can imagine, that folks "set" in one area, are SERIOUSLY deficient in others...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I am not saying paint ball prepares a person mentally in any way for the stresses of war, but what it can do is let groups try strategies and see what does and doesn't work with some idea of the casualty rate , also anything a person can do to train so that they don't have to think as much as follow procedure helps under stress.

Rotc is spending a lot of time on the paintball range , the pentagon has spent millions on the equipment that mounts to real m16s with blank adapters so that they can war game in training 

one of the things it often points out is the need for a organized response and good communications , some times you need to get this into some ones head and show them 

no it doesn't prepare them for the metal stresses of seeing friends die

and yes the point is you get to come out of it with just a few lumps so you get to try and fail without fear building team work.


having a great stock of weapons at the expense of lacking in food , water or shelter is obviously unbalanced . chances are that a hand gun will be the most used defensive weapon any way , as it will be what you can carry with you all the time.

so keep balanced , and do your best with what ever you have on hand and what works for you , your best is all you can do.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Hairsheep said:


> War ain't a game, where one has fun with a "gun".
> What stress could possibly be involved?
> You know full well, you'll leave that area(paintball) alive, and uninjured, minus some nicks and bruises.
> I have been into some terrible areas of cities too(Detroit, Philadelphia, etc), but even these do not compare to the brutality, and the mental expects of REAL war situations.
> ...


I think you miss my point- I am in no way saying it is an exact replacement- YOu actuallyr eally do get combat symptons from serious paintball matches and great training and sometimes weaknesses such as tunnel vision (actually called combat vision) where your eyes and hearing adapt to the situation or fail. The main point is not saying paintball is perfect, but that if you do nothing except read forums and stockpile food and you avoid stressful situations, you will be less prepared. Also the military and LEO utilize a variety of less than lethal "games" for trainign from simple laser tag to paintball to simunition and miles gear. In the Air control world, we would spend 2 weeks a quarter in the field, building defensive fire positions, overlapping fields of fire, c-wire enclosures, bunkers, and then using our actual rifles with blanks/miles gear fight ourselves or have the german air force guys invade us. We knew we couldnt die, but it was pretty ---- stressful non the less. Regular joe schmoe does not have 1-200 comrades in arms and a stockpile of GBU's and blanks and sand bags and all the equipment to go with it. So they NEED to find the best thing they can. Heck going to a city with heavy traffic and trying to get somewhere on time is a stressful situation. YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW YOUR MIND AND BODY REACT TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY.


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