# Weaning Enteritis



## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey folks, have a question regarding non-acute weaning enteritis. (w/o diarrhea) 

Weâve experienced a couple faders that grow just fine up until 6-7 weeks then they start loosing weight and wasting away, maybe itâs just a run of bad luck but this seems WAY more common in the Hollandâs than in the meat breeds and itâs starting to drive me nuts! 

There has got to be something out there to stimulate gut activity to ease weaning on these little guys, any ideas?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

What are you feeding them, Ryan? Lots of grass hay usually heads off these problems.


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## arachyd (Feb 1, 2009)

Some good yogurt with active cultures might give their digestive tracts a boost.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

A tbsp of apple cider vinegar per gallon of their drinking water wont' hurt, either.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

We run 16% manapro feed, orchard grass hay (not daily though), and apple cider vinegar in the water once per week. I've dealt with this before but with the Holland&#8217;s it seems to run in about 1 in 5 babies, with the meat breeds it's more like 1:50.

There was a product we used at weaning with ruminants when I was little but I'll be danged if I can remember what it's called. I'm willing to give just about anything a try, watching the little ones fade is bad enough but my wife and kids would cull me if I culled one of the buns that we have here at the house!


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

could you do hay for babies daily? I like weaning babies to get lots of hay when they start experimenting wiith food


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

It actually doesn't really sound like weaning enteritis. In any case, what I have found works much better than removing the kits from the cage, is to remove the doe. I don't have that many rabbits, so what I do is pull half the kits and put them in another cage for 24 hours. I then return them and pull the other half for 24 hours. Finally, I return all the kits to the cage and move the doe. Staying in the same cage seems to remove the stress of being moved to a new place. This also gives mom a chance to cut down her milk if she hasn't already stopped nursing.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Have you done a necropsy on any of the dead kits to see if the internal organs look okay? It would likely give you a better idea of what problem you are dealing with.

I'd make hay available free choice and add the apple cider vinegar to the water daily at a rate of 2 Tablespoons per gallon.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

Any chance it is something genetic? Since it seems it is breed specific, one might consider that this is some kind of gentetic thing that starts showing up at that time. Just a thought. Is there a possibility that the animals are highly inbred?


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

It very well could be a genetic fault (I'll know shortly as I'm getting ready to tighten the line further) but from every outward sign it resembles nonacute enteritis. The babies are happy and healthy then they suddenly start fading away, loosing weight and just stop growing til they pass. They literally turn to skin and bones like an angora with wool block but they never stop eating or drinking it's just like their body can't take up the nutrients from the feed...

We&#8217;re running these little guys to 8-9 weeks before separation, they just don't look big enough in comparison to the NZ's at 7 weeks let alone 5! I normally do separate the mother from the buns for the same reason, it just seems to stress them less.

I've seen this before many times in the commercial operation it just wasn't common enough to worry about. It may be a side effect of the dwarf gene as well but I'm not sure. In every case thus far it's been with a true dwarf bun and I've not experienced it in a false dwarf.. We've always referred to them as faders, not sure if that is the correct definition or not. The meat breeds almost always get the runs shortly after it starts from my experience but the Holland&#8217;s have had clean butts except for one who got diarrhea a day before it passed.

After writing all that I'm wondering if it isn't a feed issue from the lack of hay resulting in compaction of the digestive tract of the smaller buns... There&#8217;s always a new twist in life! We've had a great start with the Holland&#8217;s and have been able to produce good numbers resulting in several really nice animals, can't complain overall just very different from any other breed I've ever experienced!


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Well... offering the Holland youngsters free choice grass hay is easy enough to try. Hope it solves the problem! Apple cider vinegar in the water might help as well.


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## DevonGlen (Aug 10, 2009)

There is a couple things you can give them if they start showing signs.
1.) Oats (old-fashioned rolled oats)
2.) Electrolytes (Gatorade, Pediasure etc.)
3.) Lots of Timothy grass.
4.) No Pellets.

I've never lost babies to weanling enteritis and I've been raising rabbits for over 6 years now. 

I've found that the apple cider vinegar can cause ulcers even when highly diluted.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

DevonGlen said:


> I've found that the apple cider vinegar can cause ulcers even when highly diluted.


Ulcers? Really? Did you find them during a necropsy? What concentration were you using, DevonGlen?

I'd be interested in learning more about this, because many of us use apple cider vinegar and you can be sure we don't want to harm our rabbits.

BTW, I totally agree with the hay and rolled oats and cutting out the pellets temporarily.


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## DevonGlen (Aug 10, 2009)

MaggieJ said:


> Ulcers? Really? Did you find them during a necropsy? What concentration were you using, DevonGlen?
> 
> I'd be interested in learning more about this, because many of us use apple cider vinegar and you can be sure we don't want to harm our rabbits.
> 
> BTW, I totally agree with the hay and rolled oats and cutting out the pellets temporarily.



2 Tbs per 1 Gallon at every second day intervals. I found these during a necropsy and they were only in the rabbits that had the vinegar solution. (someone told me it would help does become more furtrile  )

I also found out through work, that in the 1800's when it was popular to be pale. British woman would drink a vinegar/water/chalk solution because it made them not blush... It was because all the blood was pretty much drained from their faces because of the ulcers it created. (They just thought it made them pale)


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Thanks for the details, DevonGlen. Looks like another issue to be looked into!

Victorian women did some weird things. But surely chalk (calcium carbonate) would have neutralized the acid in the vinegar. Sounds to me like faulty chemistry to blame that mixture for their ulcers.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Have you wormed your breed does? It's a long shot but I've seen that happen in kittens where they just fade away like that even though they are eating and drinking a lot. Some worms pass through the placenta and would be in an active growth stage about the time your babies start failing.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

That's the first I've heard of vinegar causing problems in rabbits. Did you use apple cider vinegar or white distilled? I don't know if it would make a difference, but when I have used vinegar I used ACV.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

turtlehead said:


> That's the first I've heard of vinegar causing problems in rabbits. Did you use apple cider vinegar or white distilled? I don't know if it would make a difference, but when I have used vinegar I used ACV.


DevonGlen has shared what she found when she put apple cider vinegar in some of her rabbit's drinking water, hoping to increase fertility. I'm glad she spoke up, but this is just one person's experience. 

ACV has been used for decades in rabbits' drinking water and this is the first instance I have heard of it doing anything but good. It bears looking into... but it is an anecdotal observation that she shared, not a scientific study. We simply do not know if it was the apple cider vinegar that caused the problem or something else. 

Devon, you haven't filled us in on the pumpkin seeds for worming. In another thread you said you found then ineffective, but you did not provide details of how you used them: raw or roasted, how many, how often and for how long, and also, what kinds of worms did they not kill? If we are to benefit from your observations, we really do need the details.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

acv has been used in horses water/feed for decades too - as a real benefit for some


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## Ceres Hil (Aug 13, 2008)

Per Maggie,
I feed raw pumpkin seeds 3x/week and add ACV 2-3x/wk. Hoping to stay ahead of the curve!


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2009)

Watching this for the info on the pumpkin seeds for worming. Was planning on doing this this fall...contemplating on just using medicated wormer if there's no proof it works...WHAT in the pumpkin seeds will deworm a rabbit? HOW? All worms? Does it work on other species?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Lyndseyrk said:


> Watching this for the info on the pumpkin seeds for worming. Was planning on doing this this fall...contemplating on just using medicated wormer if there's no proof it works...WHAT in the pumpkin seeds will deworm a rabbit? HOW? All worms? Does it work on other species?


DevonGlen was the person who said that she found pumpkin seeds to be ineffective as a wormer. I have twice asked that she give us more detail of how she used them: quantity given, frequency and duration of treatment, raw or roasted etc. but so far she has not responded. There is a great deal of information on the web about pumpkin seeds (also called pepitas) being used as a wormer. Try googling the keywords *pumpkin seeds wormer*. You will find a variety of supporters and detractors and will be able to make up your own mind whether to try this or not. The nice thing about pumpkin seeds is that they are a nutritious food as well and do not have the same hazards as commercial wormers. Some of us feed them in fall because they are available and we consider it a good precaution against worms. I do this myself, even though I have never seen any indication that my rabbits have worms. It's one of those "can't hurt" things. 

Here is one link:

http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_pumpkin.htm


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks, Maggie! You always seem to come through for me!


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

In order to see if pumpkin seeds are an effective wormer, one has to have rabbits with worms........I think I will pass on being an investigator in this study


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

GRrrrr... Just lost the bun that originated this post! I will call it a partial success as I was able to keep it alive for 2 weeks from on set vs about 4-5 days which is normal. Changes to diet were grass hay and dried bread. (we use it to condition and add weight) The sibling to this bun was about twice the size (the bun stopped growing at about 6 weeks) as of today and shows absolutely no signs of stress what so ever. He's healthy as can be and putting on weight just like he should.

I did notice that the sick bun pretty much refused to eat pellets for the last week or so and preferred to take water from a crock vs the water bottle. Not sure what to make of this. I still think this is a gut imbalance of some sort more so than anything else, I'm going to try yogurt, grass hay, and bread next time. 

All of these have been the same, wasting away w/o any signs of diarrhea and then loose but not watery stool the day of death. Am going to check the liver after everyone goes to bed but are there any ideas out there?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Have you wormed your breed does? It's a long shot but I've seen that happen in kittens where they just fade away like that even though they are eating and drinking a lot. Some worms pass through the placenta and would be in an active growth stage about the time your babies start failing.


this is the bit of information i have been looking for. i've been having the same problem and There are bleeds inside of some of the dead kits. i am asuming from worms. But could'nt figure out how they got so bad so fast.
I thought from consuming the mothers cecum material. But I didn't think they started that till right before they go on solid food.
Any way I have wormed the whole herd and will repeat the worming in 30 days. Perhaps sooner.


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## jhuebner (Mar 29, 2009)

Steam Rolled Oats or Barley
Yogurt ~.75 cc a couple times a day, for a couple days!
Timothy Hay


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