# We Don't Have Enough Electricity.....



## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Toyota CEO Agrees With Elon Musk: We Don't Have Enough Electricity to Electrify All the Cars


Let’s stipulate a couple of facts right at the top: Toyota makes a lot of cars, so many that it’s the world’s largest or second-largest auto manufacturer every year. Toyota makes a l...




pjmedia.com





"We don't have enough electricity to electrify all the cars....

 Is someone not doing his homework?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Wolf mom said:


> Is someone not doing his homework?


That is what happens when you run with the "do something, do anything, but do something" crowd


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

If our society gradually shifts from consuming 20.54 million barrels of petroleum per day, down to only 18.49 Million barrels per day [approximately 90$ of our former rate of consumption]. then the same amount of energy must come from some other source.

I have an off-grid solar-power system that powers my home. I own a plug-in hybrid car that I recharge from my household battery-bank.

I can produce enough electricity to power my car. If a day comes when I need more electricity then I can install more photovoltaic panels to increase my daily production of electricity.

I do not see any 'crisis' in this scenario.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

These electric car dreams are pathetic nonsense. They only work if you have control over your dwelling and can therefore install a home charging outfit. And all of this is contingent on whether you can afford to do so or not.

Many people are apartment dwellers, or renters. They will not be able to do such things. And I suspect that many cannot afford to own their own house and certainly cannot afford to spend so much for an electric coffin on wheels.

Will the grid support such charging consistently if electric car ownership increases? Blackouts are still in existence in places so how will this work for people who need their electric puddle jumper to get groceries and get to work?

And what of people who live where the winters are cold. Cold dramatically affects a battery's capacity for charge and discharge, making winter use a headache. In my view it's all rubbish and nonsense to chase such electric car dreams.

Elon Musk can take his ideas and his visions and follow Johnny Paycheck's advice.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

georger said:


> These electric car dreams are pathetic nonsense.


I have been following the development of an all electric utility farm truck, I think it is pretty exciting. Its interior space is enough to haul 72 full sheets of plywood, it can tow, and it gets over 300 miles per charge.

I would not call that 'pathetic' but rather amazing.





> ... They only work if you have control over your dwelling and can therefore install a home charging outfit. And all of this is contingent on whether you can afford to do so or not.


I see, yes I can see where a 20-ampere outlet is just far too much to ask for. /sarc

I have read that many municipalities in California have updated the local building codes that every residence is mandated to have a charging station in the designated parking spot for each resident.





> ... Many people are apartment dwellers, or renters. They will not be able to do such things. And I suspect that many cannot afford to own their own house and certainly cannot afford to spend so much for an electric coffin on wheels.


Again, as this becomes a part of the building code apartment renters have no input into this.

Since you are using the term 'coffin' for automobiles, I assume that you are well aware that most motorcycle manufacturers are already making EV motorcycles.





> ... Will the grid support such charging consistently if electric car ownership increases?


In 1900 did our nation have the infrastructure to provide refined gasoline in every town, coast-to-coast?

No that infrastructure did not exist. It had to be built.





> ... Blackouts are still in existence in places so how will this work for people who need their electric puddle jumper to get groceries and get to work?


Puddle-jumpers? Are they Coast Guard now?

What about folks who drive coast-to-coast don't they count in this? 





> ... And what of people who live where the winters are cold. Cold dramatically affects a battery's capacity for charge and discharge, making winter use a headache. In my view it's all rubbish and nonsense to chase such electric car dreams.


I live in Maine. Solar-Power is GREAT here in Maine.

I assume that you already know how cold temp makes all current handling devices nearly double their current handling ability right?

My solar system works the best when temps are -20F.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

ET1 SS said:


> I have been following the development of an all electric utility farm truck, I think it is pretty exciting. Its interior space is enough to haul 72 full sheets of plywood, it can tow, and it gets over 300 miles per charge.
> 
> I would not call that 'pathetic' but rather amazing.
> 
> ...


How do you protect your batteries? I have a whole house system and don't have the cold weather issues here.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> If our society gradually shifts from consuming 20.54 million barrels of petroleum per day, down to only 18.49 Million barrels per day [approximately 90$ of our former rate of consumption]. then the same amount of energy must come from some other source.
> 
> I have an off-grid solar-power system that powers my home. I own a plug-in hybrid car that I recharge from my household battery-bank.
> 
> ...


I n a lot of ways, what you are saying is like those that say everyone should grow their own food. It might work for a few, but in no way is possible for the majority. I don't know the cost of your "system", nor the life expectancy of the components. Often a system's cost equals 30 years worth of utilities, so it isn't any greater efficiency. Are we counting the energy to create the wind and sun generated equipment?

Wind and sun generated power still needs a huge fossil fueled generation, available to spool up when the sun goes under a cloud or sets and the wind drops.

I hate the emissions from coal, but I;m not ready to accept filing landfills with those huge carbon fiber wind blades either.

Since most folks canot generate their own electricity, power plants will continue to provide the electricity. Converting fuel to heat, heat to steam, steam to pressure, presure to turbines turbines to generators, generators to electricity involves huge energy losses. Running high voltage power lines hundreds or thousands of miles to sub stations that alter the voltages to send to your house. At your house, the electricity goes to a charger, voltage changed/transformed and applied to the car's battery. The battery cannot absorb that voltage efficiently. While driving, the electricity stored is conveyed to the electric motor that creates magnetic forces to push the shaft to turn. Every electric car takes 10 times as much energy as the gasoline equivalent. Except the electric car is also running on government subsidies.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

This way above me! Can those electric powered vehicles work on pulling a load of cows for us simple people? I can't plan on retrofitting my rental houses for it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Texas electricity generated by wind has now passed electricity generated by coal. The times are a changing. Texas a fossil fuel state knows this and the state is making huge headway into green energy and high paying jobs in that sector.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

no really said:


> How do you protect your batteries? I have a whole house system and don't have the cold weather issues here.


Protect batteries?

I have never seen bear or moose try to mess with batteries. Sometimes our cats like to sleep on them.

One of my neighbors had an episode, it began when his toilet ran all night. That caused his well pump to run intermittently all night long, and it ran down his battery charge. Because his batteries were at zero state-of-charge, the water in the cells froze, expanded and split open the sides of the batteries.

My system has a 'Low-Battery-Cut-Off' preset, if my battery charge ever goes down to near a 60% state-of-charge the whole system shuts down.

So it should be near impossible for my batteries to ever get below a 50% SOC.

-20F temps have no effect on a battery with greater than 50% SOC.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Texas electricity generated by wind has now passed electricity generated by coal. The times are a changing. Texas a fossil fuel state knows this and the state is making huge headway into green energy and high paying jobs in that sector.


My cousin is a wind tech he makes around 50,000 a year.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

ET1 SS said:


> Protect batteries?
> 
> I have never seen bear or moose try to mess with batteries. Sometimes our cats like to sleep on them.
> 
> ...


Well thanks for the reply, I was referring to the freezing temp issue. Since I have a solar system and family that work in the field I was curious. Freezing temps have just never come up in conversation since we very seldom have them..


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I n a lot of ways, what you are saying is like those that say everyone should grow their own food. It might work for a few, but in no way is possible for the majority. I don't know the cost of your "system", nor the life expectancy of the components. Often a system's cost equals 30 years worth of utilities, so it isn't any greater efficiency. Are we counting the energy to create the wind and sun generated equipment?


I am a farmer. I do advocate for everyone 'everywhere' to grow their own food.

Whatever you do in life, is your life choice. If you decide to live in an apartment, so be it. But that was your decision.

My system [4400 watts with 600ah 48vdc battery-bank cost me approx $20k] depreciates over seven [7] years [as required by the IRS].

There is no way possible for my solar system Return-On-Investment to ever go beyond seven [7] years.

Every penny spent on solar power is a write-off on my taxes over the course of seven [7] years.

I do not honestly care whether my system lasts 25 years, or if it last 50 years. Because I can start replacing components after seven [7] years, it makes no difference.

I have neighbors who have been using solar power since the 1980s. Their systems are still functioning and producing power. Haters are out there who insist that these systems rot and die after 20 years. In reality, 20 years of daily usage has been shown to make them reduce output by 5 to 10%. I am okay with that.

It costs a lot to buy Easement Rights over 20 miles to get a path to run new power poles, from the nearest power grid, into my township.

Most homes in my township all run generators. I have neighbors who spend $200 a month on generator fuel.

To seek an alternative to solar-power here on the East Coast is very expensive.

What I could spend to gain access to grid power, equals how much it costs to feed a generator over 10 years.

If you want power, you best be willing to spend some cash.





> ... Wind and sun generated power still needs a huge fossil fueled generation, available to spool up when the sun goes under a cloud or sets and the wind drops.


Dont stop there, and you need to spend the cash to buy Easement Rights, for where you plan to install all of these power poles, then you need to spend some cash to string 20-miles of wire on those poles. Spending does not stop at buying fossil-fuels.

Unless you live somewhere that is pretty urban, you need a plan for how you are going to get grid power onto your farm.





> ... Every electric car takes 10 times as much energy as the gasoline equivalent. Except the electric car is also running on government subsidies.


I have not seen any documentation that would suggest what you are posting.

Are we talking reptiles in DC here?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

TripleD said:


> This way above me! Can those electric powered vehicles work on pulling a load of cows for us simple people?


The truck I have my eye on boasts 614Hp, 5,000 lb payload and is rated to two 7500 pounds.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

ET1 SS said:


> The truck I have my eye on boasts 614Hp, 5,000 lb payload and is rated to two 7500 pounds.


Interesting do you by any chance have a link for the truck?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

ET1 SS said:


> The truck I have my eye on boasts 614Hp, 5,000 lb payload and is rated to two 7500 pounds.


Ok. The truck I have capable of hauling what I need plus towing. It cost $3500 two years ago. How much is the one you have your eyes on? A new one is about $75k in the diesel package here.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

no really said:


> Interesting do you by any chance have a link for the truck?











BOLLINGER B1


We are making the world's first electric trucks at Bollinger Motors. Check out the B1 Sport Utility Vehicle and reserve yours today!




bollingermotors.com





I expect after ten years of production the MSRP should be down to $50k.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Texas electricity generated by wind has now passed electricity generated by coal. The times are a changing. Texas a fossil fuel state knows this and the state is making huge headway into green energy and high paying jobs in that sector.




















Texas’ Electricity Resources


Where Power Comes From - and How it Gets to You




comptroller.texas.gov


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I just did some of my own math. Half of my rental houses would cost 10 to 15k for tree removal. Then some people would just come along saying we have to save the trees!!!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Texas’ Electricity Resources


Where Power Comes From - and How it Gets to You




comptroller.texas.gov




[/QUOTE]
Your graph is 2019. No longer relevant.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Wind Power Overtakes Coal In Texas For The First Time Ever | OilPrice.com


For the first time ever, wind power overtook coal in Texas' overall energy mix as the renewable energy source continues to gain traction




oilprice.com





For decades, the Lone Star State has been essentially synonymous with fossil fuels. While shale oil and gas have long reigned supreme in Texas, coal has also long been a prominent part of the state’s energy mix, currently clocking in at about an 18% share. But not for long. The winds of change are blowing through Texas. In 2020, for the first time ever, wind power overtook coal in the state’s overall energy mix, “the latest sign of renewable energy’s rising prominence in America’s fossil fuel heartland” according to reporting by the Financial Times this week. As the shale revolution that put Texas on the global energy map has been cooling down, the state has been fervently building up its wind power


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Texas’ Electricity Resources
> 
> 
> Where Power Comes From - and How it Gets to You
> ...


Your graph is 2019. No longer relevant.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe not - Published August 2020 by Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> I just did some of my own math. Half of my rental houses would cost 10 to 15k for tree removal. Then some people would just come along saying we have to save the trees!!!


I pulled up the GIS. I need to cut some of the neighbors trees. Now I'm better off buying a bucket truck. I might have to pay them and put solar on there homes. This is going to be expensive! I might need help?!?!


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Wind Power Overtakes Coal In Texas For The First Time Ever | OilPrice.com
> 
> 
> For the first time ever, wind power overtook coal in Texas' overall energy mix as the renewable energy source continues to gain traction
> ...


Looks like NG is doing good.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

no really said:


> Looks like NG is doing good.


Yes it is. Wind power has risen at a much higher percentage in the last 10 years and is looking to continue to.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Yes it is. Wind power has risen at a much higher percentage in the last 10 years and is looking to continue to.


Well one thing we have here is wind, oh and petroleum. Oh and there is this:









Texas will host the largest solar project in the US


Northeastern Texas will become home to a 1,310-megawatt solar farm, The Samson Solar Energy Center. It will be the largest in the US upon completion.




electrek.co


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Texas is working hard at raising their renewable energy profile. They have seen the writing on the wall. It is a great thing.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

According to some things I've read the biggest stumbling block on the horizon for electric cars is availability of lithium. Solar and wind is transmission.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

no really said:


> According to some things I've read the biggest stumbling block on the horizon for electric cars is availability of lithium. Solar and wind is transmission.


China produces the third most lithium at 5,000 metric tons 
Australia is the world leader in lithium production at 14,300 MT (2016 USGS) 

The LUT-Augsburg researchers examined various models to determine how much lithium remains on Earth, with estimates varying from 30-95 million tons (Mt) as the United States Geological Survey, for instance, indicates total resource stock of 80 million ton. 

In 2021, Benchmark Mineral Intelligence is forecasting that total lithium demand for all applications will increase to over 400,000 tonnes lithium carbonate equivalent (LCE).


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

HDRider said:


> China produces the third most lithium at 5,000 metric tons
> Australia is the world leader in lithium production at 14,300 MT (2016 USGS)
> 
> The LUT-Augsburg researchers examined various models to determine how much lithium remains on Earth, with estimates varying from 30-95 million tons (Mt) as the United States Geological Survey, for instance, indicates total resource stock of 80 million ton.
> ...


Yes, it is out there but the problems are acquiring it without damaging the environment.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

no really said:


> Yes, it is out there but the problems are acquiring it without damaging the environment.


They have PR people for that


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

HDRider said:


> They have PR people for that


So true.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Texas has it's own grid. Not hooked up to the rest of the US.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

no really said:


> According to some things I've read the biggest stumbling block on the horizon for electric cars is availability of lithium. Solar and wind is transmission.


I recall cobalt was another huge limitation on EV's dominating transportation and a large source of virtual slave labor and environmental destruction. But, as long as it out of sight of TPTB and the watermelons, it doesn't matter.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> I live in Maine. Solar-Power is GREAT here in Maine.


Well then, you must get sunshine in Maine. There is not a lot of sunshine in the winter where I am located.

My concern about electric cars is that they are already limited on distance and it is cold here 7-8 mopnth out of the year and it is necessary to run the heat in the car. Running the heat in an electric car is rumored to cut down considerably on the length of time the battery charge is good for.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

TripleD said:


> This way above me! Can those electric powered vehicles work on pulling a load of cows for us simple people? I can't plan on retrofitting my rental houses for it.


Electric vehicle will out pull whatever you currently use to pull them.

Electric motors can have way more torque than current gas or diesel engines, plus no power robbing drive train.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Trains are run on electric motors, so I guess an electric motor can pull a livestock trailer. But look at the size of the battery pack on a locomotive. 

I can foresee a huge problem for tenants. There is no way for a tenant to have his own charging station at his apartment. A landlord isn't going to provide fuel for every car in the neighborhood for free, so charging stations at apartments would have to be coin operated. That means a heavy surcharge for the electricity to cover installing the charging station and maintaining it.

It's very unlikely that a landlord would install a charging station at every parking spot. There will be a couple of charging stations and the first tenant to get home will park his car there, plug it in, and then go home for supper, not coming back out to move his car so the next tenant could charge the car.

Neighbors who don't live there will park and charge their cars, again tying up the charging station so that the rest of the tenants can't use it.

About 38% of the population are tenants. I don't know how that breaks down between apartments and free standing houses, but a lot of people live in apartments. it's difficult to have your own charging station if you don't have a house and/ or a garage.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

We just had a power outage that lasted five days. Trees down over the power lines due to a wind storm. It doesn't happen often. But California often has power turned off for over a week. It happens several times a year and it wouldn't be much fun to rely upon an electric car when there is no electricity.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

oregon woodsmok said:


> We just had a power outage that lasted five days. Trees down over the power lines due to a wind storm. It doesn't happen often. But California often has power turned off for over a week. It happens several times a year and it wouldn't be much fun to rely upon an electric car when there is no electricity.


That has been accounted for by making it just as hard to get gasoline or diesel, as reliable electricity in CA......well, any gasoline or diesel that is produced domestically.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> Electric vehicle will out pull whatever you currently use to pull them.
> 
> Electric motors can have way more torque than current gas or diesel engines, plus no power robbing drive train.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T550 using Homesteading Today mobile app


Just tell "them" to come retrofit my house and rentals. It's all free until someone has to pay for it. Solar power would work great here on the farm. Plenty of open space but not on the rentals...


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

TripleD said:


> Just tell "them" to come retrofit my house and rentals. It's all free until someone has to pay for it. Solar power would work great here on the farm. Plenty of open space but not on the rentals...


Keep up, I was referencing your doubts about vehicles. 

I assume since you are so anti solar you're already on the grid.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> If our society gradually shifts from consuming 20.54 million barrels of petroleum per day, down to only 18.49 Million barrels per day [approximately 90$ of our former rate of consumption]. then the same amount of energy must come from some other source.
> 
> I have an off-grid solar-power system that powers my home. I own a plug-in hybrid car that I recharge from my household battery-bank.
> 
> ...


What are you going to do when you need new battery packs?


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Trains are run on electric motors, so I guess an electric motor can pull a livestock trailer. But look at the size of the battery pack on a locomotive.
> 
> I can foresee a huge problem for tenants. There is no way for a tenant to have his own charging station at his apartment. A landlord isn't going to provide fuel for every car in the neighborhood for free, so charging stations at apartments would have to be coin operated. That means a heavy surcharge for the electricity to cover installing the charging station and maintaining it.
> 
> ...


Next problem is us folks that live way out in the countryside. We barely get electricity out here.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> Keep up, I was referencing your doubts about vehicles.
> 
> I assume since you are so anti solar you're already on the grid.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T550 using Homesteading Today mobile app


Not anti solar. It's just not worth it to me with an average $125 power bill. I just don't see tractors and trucks in the picture for me...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> I am a farmer. I do advocate for everyone 'everywhere' to grow their own food.
> 
> Whatever you do in life, is your life choice. If you decide to live in an apartment, so be it. But that was your decision.
> 
> ...


Feel free to advocate for everyone to grow their own food. Should even 20% of those apartment dwellers chose to buy a plot of arable land, land prices would skyrocket and the resulting boost in value would have you spending a fortune just on the property taxes. Be thankful those folks stay put in their apartments.

You make my point when you admit the government subsidy/deduction you rely on to make your system affordable. If I rely on the grid, spend $500 a year on all the electricity I want, that’s a break even at 40 years, using your $20,000. Outlay. How many sets of batteries does it take to operate for 40 years?

Your setup is not replicable in more than 20% of homes. Switching over to electric cars and depending on home produced power ignores, as you seem to, that 80% lack a roof to install solar panels. That in your unique situation, with government help, you can go electric car.

But for the foreseeable future, solar and wind power cannot come close to replacing fossil fueled far away electrical power plants. Burning fuel to make electricity and sending it far away to charge batteries to power cars only is feasible with huge government subsidies. Far more efficient to use the fuel directly in each vehicle.

You can do the math yourself. I listed the numerous times energy is converted, each step is 50 to 60% efficient. The poles and easements are already in place. But if you lose 10% of your voltage from a power pole 200 yards from your house, imagine the losses over 1000 miles.

There are few locations where the lack of available power makes a huge off grid system economically viable. Yours is one, but replication to the masses isn’t feasible.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Texas is working hard at raising their renewable energy profile. They have seen the writing on the wall. It is a great thing.


It is a very expensive thing.

wind/photovoltaics are a fairly good, tho expensive, source of electricity up to about 30% of our needs.

beyond that, you will find the costs rise rapidly as the output plateaus.

I realize we are no longer in a thinking phase of society, nothing has to actually work, we just have to feel good and all warm and fuzzy about our theories that aren’t supported by any facts.

so, no need to debate you, I understand, what is real is not believed as education failed us years ago.

wonder how the next generation is going to pick up the pieces from this, when we are starved for dependable energy, have no infrastructure or ability to build such any more.

it is a sad future for the young.

Paul


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

The energy grid will still have to have power plants so as to supply power when the wind and sun machines are not operating efficiently. I have no problem with wind and sun, just have to keep in mind its not a 24 hour, 7 day a week, 365 day a year source. 


Autos and eventually pickups and some day trucks will do fine on electric, mostly for local short range use. Meanwhile I typically run at minimum of 16,000 lbs gross and several days a week its about 24,000 to 26,000 lbs. gross. Less than a hundred miles a day is rare, 250 miles not unusual. Usually 3 to 4 people in the vehicle. Last two work trucks were used by me for at least 13 yrs each. Their still on the road. Please bring on a battery powered long lasting economical truck for me. 

I really appreciate those of you helping provide the financing for the manufactures to learn to get the technology we need for a useful electric work truck.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The Bollinger B1 gets about 200 miles per charge, cannot carry 1 sheet of plywood enclosed, holds only 4 passengers (per their website) and costs $125,000, takes 10 hours to charge using 220 volt outlets or 75 minutes on a DC fast charger and likely has no airbags (according to Car and Driver). The B2 can carry plywood enclosed but only with back seats removed.

I won't be reserving one any time soon.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

While Texas is capable of increasing it's energy production from sources like wind and solar, other states aren't so lucky. 

I just looked at my areas cost and return for a solar set-up. With only the federal subsidy of 26% it would take from 10 to 14 years to pay it off. That is a generalization. A few years back we consulted a solar installation company who looked at the aerial views of our house and said that we would never get a roi from a solar system installation. There are too many trees in our area that are not on our property. If the trees were on our property and we agreed to have them removed it would easily add several thousand dollars to the system price.

The way the electric infrastructure in Ohio is operated now electric cars would be a drain on a system that uses fossil fuel for much more than half of it's electrical needs.

Just a thought, but IMO, the electric vehicle production companies should be required to use 100% renewable resources to power their facilities.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

“Just a thought, but IMO, the electric vehicle production companies should be required to use 100% renewable resources to power their facilities.”

The products should also be reusable. Current lead batteries are almost, if not, all from recycled material.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> If our society gradually shifts from consuming 20.54 million barrels of petroleum per day, down to only 18.49 Million barrels per day [approximately 90$ of our former rate of consumption]. then the same amount of energy must come from some other source.
> 
> I have an off-grid solar-power system that powers my home. I own a plug-in hybrid car that I recharge from my household battery-bank.
> 
> ...


 I jut started reading this thread and haven't gotten past your post-- Your attitude expresses a common fallacy about alt energy-- It's really like a Perpetual Motion Machine-- While you personally might get by increasing your generation capacity, it won't work when everybody has to do that....Don't forget, you're buying components made using fossil fuel.

When there is no fossil fuel powered generation and all elect comes from wind/solar, then you need "back up capacity" because the wind doesn't always blow nor the sun shine at every locality. Analysis shows that we'll need to install 6-10x more generation capacity as a country than our demand at any moment to cover the shortfall when local gen is low. How (Not) to Run a Modern Society on Solar and Wind Power Alone - LOW-TECH MAGAZINE (And that's not counting a doubling of demand by going with electric autos.)

Ask Germany how things are working out. They're just barely getting by as they switch to more alt energy, and that only because they're being allowed to foul up the European grid by dumping excess energy on other countries or buying from then during shortages. Ca has the same problem...When everybody is forced into alts, there will be no dumping grounds or easy reservoirs to borrow from. Germany Weighs Electricity Rationing Scheme To Stabilize Its Now Shaky Green Power Grid – Watts Up With That? 

It's just not as easy as you think. Compare it to "living off the land." One guy need 2 sq miles to forage in to survive by hunting & gathering and the occasional hermit can do it here--- but there just ain't enough hunting grounds for 330,000,000 Americans to do it.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

The sole purpose of a farm truck is to tow heavy loads in all conditions, this includes 10* F, when the cows need fed, or feed bags need to be bought. 

I guarantee that this electric truck won't travel 300 miles WHILE towing anything...throw in super cold temps, and your battery life is now risking your life, and the cow's lives as well.


.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Another point-- all our "Green" utility companies are installing more & more solar & wind capacity-- not because they care about the environment, but because they care about profits-- 

They are heavily regulated, including the rates they can charge. Usually the regs are set up to allow them ~10% profit. Keep in mind that 10% of $1 is 10cents, but 10% of $1M is $100,000---- That 10% rate is based on their operating costs. Adding the capital expense of additional alt installations increases the base on which the profit is calculated...and in a classic "win-win' govt subsidies are providing the capital.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

CKelly78z said:


> The sole purpose of a farm truck is to tow heavy loads in all conditions, this includes 10* F, when the cows need fed, or feed bags need to be bought.
> 
> I guarantee that this electric truck won't travel 300 miles WHILE towing anything...throw in super cold temps, and your battery life is now risking your life, and the cow's lives as well.
> 
> ...


I laughed several months ago when Tesla staged that contest of its EV pick-up vs an ICE (Ford?) The EV iof course won handily (Everyone knows an elect motor has great torque. That's why train locomotives use elec motors to power the drive wheels.) ...The contest took about 15 minutes, then they stopped it....They should have let them continue. The Tesla would have pulled the Ford for about 1/4 mile in a half hour & then run out of juice. The Ford would then drag the Tesla @ 80mph for the next 400 miles.

The Tesla design engineers obviously never actually used a pick-up truck. Because the batteries are under the bed, the floor of the bed is 4 ft off the ground, and then they put those stupid, slanting, thick side walls around the bed.... How do you load it with cargo without breaking your back?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Details, details. Go Green


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

For some reason the political big wigs are really pushing to get all of us driving electric vehicles in the near future, as if that is going to suddenly change the climate.
It's my opinion (based on no science or proof) is that automobile emissions are peanuts in the grand scheme of things when it comes to emissions. Modern gas automobiles are getting better mileage than ever and modern engines put out minimal emission. Heck, I can run my 85hp tractor in the barn and it won't even smoke up the ceiling. 

I'd bet things like; ocean going vessels and barges, locomotives, air planes, semi trucks, construction and mining equipment, etc. consume the majority of the fuel and generate the majority of the emissions. We can't hardly eliminate these items.

Getting us all driving crappy little ,low range electric vehicles is just political posturing to help line somebody's pockets. I'm sure you could follow the money to find the truth.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Fishindude said:


> follow the money


This one is easy.

Make donations to candidates that will do your bidding.

Legislation is passed that favors your industry.

Business booms

Idiots feel good

Donate even more money, hire powerful lobbyist

Repeat


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

ET1 SS said:


> If our society gradually shifts from consuming 20.54 million barrels of petroleum per day, down to only 18.49 Million barrels per day [approximately 90$ of our former rate of consumption]. then the same amount of energy must come from some other source.
> 
> I have an off-grid solar-power system that powers my home. I own a plug-in hybrid car that I recharge from my household battery-bank.
> 
> ...


Thank you -- we have access to more power than we could _ever_ hope to use.

The problem is just getting that power where it needs to go. Most people cannot afford the absolutely insane prices required to install solar panels -- either the panels themselves are simply too expensive, or installation companies are taking advantage of consumers' ignorance on how these work or how to install them in order to charge downright profiteering labor charges and on-going maintenance fees via contract. In fact, it's actually getting harder and harder to find a company that will just sell you a system, everyone wants you on a _lease_ where you end up paying the full cost of the equipment but you still don't own it.

Now, maybe this wouldn't have been a problem if certain parties didn't bend over backwards trying to kill every initiative made to explore or invest in alternative energies.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction


As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right




www.wired.co.uk





William Adams, head of research at Metal Bulletin, says the current spike in demand can be traced back to 2015, when the Chinese government announced a huge push towards electric vehicles in its 13th Five Year Plan. That has led to a massive rise in the number of projects to extract lithium, and there are “hundreds more in the pipeline,” says Adams.


But there’s a problem. As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required to enable that transformation could become a serious issue in its own right. “One of the biggest environmental problems caused by our endless hunger for the latest and smartest devices is a growing mineral crisis, particularly those needed to make our batteries,” says Christina Valimaki an analyst at Elsevier.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Some of the companies are getting and producing lithium from existing mine waste and even waste water from oil production.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> The Bollinger B1 gets about 200 miles per charge, cannot carry 1 sheet of plywood enclosed, holds only 4 passengers (per their website) and costs $125,000, takes 10 hours to charge using 220 volt outlets or 75 minutes on a DC fast charger and likely has no airbags (according to Car and Driver). The B2 can carry plywood enclosed but only with back seats removed.
> 
> I won't be reserving one any time soon.


pits interesting that is held up as a shining star of electric utility vehicles.

it’s not in production, they don’t even have a manufacturer on board yet, but they plan to be building in 2021 yet.

they are begging for investors, they are cash poor.

the stats on the truck are about half of what the pro electric folk here firstsaid electric is capable of.

the stats are best case of course; in the real world we typically get 3/4 of the rosy projections.

200 mile range (empty, far less loaded) with a refuel time mesured in hours, that is not a useful pickup for ruralAmerica for people who actually work and use the truck for hauling.

throw in a winter climate, I’m in minnesota, and cut back performance another 3/4.

and this all is a joke.

now, rich too cool for their own good types can run Tesla cars and show how cool they are.

commuter cars for factory workers that drive less than 40 miles one way in the city, will do real well with heavily subsidized electric mini cars. Good use maybe even.

Regular folk that actually depend on a vehicle.

phhht.

Paul


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Some of the companies are getting and producing lithium from existing mine waste and even waste water from oil production.


so...... as long as we keep using petroleum, we can subsidize a small bit of electric cars.

cool, that is a program I can go with.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

World reserves of rare earths are huge, but only in China are they dense enough & of quality high enough to make mining economically viable...Compare it to the huge supply of poor quality coal in, say, IL, where you can walk along the road at Coal City and pick chunks up off the ground, but a whole acre might only provide 10 lb.

Another example of Buddy Capitalism on an international scale supported by Comrade Stupid Joe to benefit China..along with our dependence on them for our pharmaceuticals, steel, clothes, shoes, etc etc.... Another example of selling our security down the river,...er...across the Pacific.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Yes it is. Wind power has risen at a much higher percentage in the last 10 years and is looking to continue to.


Wind turbines need oil to work. Ever see them when they fail? It's an oily mess. Don't they kill birds too?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Found a source about the Lithium being sourced from mine waste.








Rio Tinto starts producing lithium in California from old mining waste
 

Lithium is needed for electric-car batteries. Instead of digging new mines, Rio Tinto is sifting through old waste at a mining site in Boron, Calif.




www.latimes.com




.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

An article from a few years about about production of wind turbines and the fossil fuels required for the process.






Can You Make a Wind Turbine Without Fossil Fuels?


Various scenarios have been put forward showing that 100% renewable energy is achievable. Some of them even claim that we can move completely away from fossil fuels in only couple of decades. A world entirely...




energycentral.com


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Trains are run on electric motors, so I guess an electric motor can pull a livestock trailer. But look at the size of the battery pack on a locomotive.
> 
> I can foresee a huge problem for tenants. There is no way for a tenant to have his own charging station at his apartment. A landlord isn't going to provide fuel for every car in the neighborhood for free, so charging stations at apartments would have to be coin operated. That means a heavy surcharge for the electricity to cover installing the charging station and maintaining it.
> 
> ...


Charging stations are becoming much easier to install and cost effective. Newer apartment complexes will have them installed and older ones can add them easier. It is a process moving towards a better future.



https://wallbox.com/en_us/wallbox-pulsar-plus


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Back in the 1970s oil crisis I really enjoyed the upswing in alternative energy.

it was grass roots and voluntary and fun.

I clipped out articles about it, read books, got a few solar cells.

we change our fuel sources over time, we have to.

what troubles me is the heavy handed and unrealistic pace of this.

And, big business is going to profit handsomely from it.

the little guy, he’s getting kicked in the rear. Again. With govt help.

no one represents us any more.

this will finish off middle class.

Paul


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Wind turbines need oil to work. Ever see them when they fail? It's an oily mess. Don't they kill birds too?


Turbines kill hundreds of thousands of birds a year.






U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - Migratory Bird Program | Conserving America's Birds







www.fws.gov


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Charging stations are becoming much easier to install and cost effective. Newer apartment complexes will have them installed and older ones can add them easier. It is a process moving towards a better future.
> 
> 
> 
> https://wallbox.com/en_us/wallbox-pulsar-plus


 The infrastructure is a minor problem. After all, the first filling station didn't appear until 1915== two decades after autos were on the (dirt) roads. ..And cross country travel was a nightmare until the 30s when Rt 66 was built....It's the folly of the ignorance of the math of the situation. We have black-outs and brown outs now. EVs will double the demand for electricity and alts can't provide it without fossil fuel back-up.



rambler said:


> it was grass roots and voluntary and fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was fun because you didn't have to do it. Failure meant nothing to your way of life.

The poor will be the first to suffer. They won't able to afford to watch TV or heat their homes.
Germany’s “Silent Catastrophe” …330,000 Households See Power Turned Off In One Year! (notrickszone.com) 

Energy prices: Six in ten elderly people skimp on heating to cut winter fuel bills (telegraph.co.uk)


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Wow! Their 30 cents per kwh is nearly 6 *TIMES* what we currently pay!


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Wolf mom said:


> Toyota CEO Agrees With Elon Musk: We Don't Have Enough Electricity to Electrify All the Cars
> 
> 
> Let’s stipulate a couple of facts right at the top: Toyota makes a lot of cars, so many that it’s the world’s largest or second-largest auto manufacturer every year. Toyota makes a l...
> ...


Look at California.
.
They do not have enough electricity and it is an unforced omission.
Kind of like building a house with no foundation


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> The infrastructure is a minor problem. After all, the first filling station didn't appear until 1915== two decades after autos were on the (dirt) roads. ..And cross country travel was a nightmare until the 30s when Rt 66 was built....It's the folly of the ignorance of the math of the situation. We have black-outs and brown outs now. EVs will double the demand for electricity and alts can't provide it without fossil fuel back-up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you notice that a couple of the bidenharris "team" have been quoted that old people have had a good life, let it go? (not the exact words, but that is the jist of it)


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> View attachment 93554
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Texas is a fossil fuel producing state, but it is a business state, and they naturally do business as they can.
Much of that wind power is sent out of state. Texas produces


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

I think all of you are missing one huge point here:

The US and Europe produce less than 10% of the worlds pollution

If we were to go to 0% it would not matter a hoot. China's pollution footprint is still growing along with that of India and much of the world
the bidenharris team even says that if you listen cloely (kerry was talking about that in the last week or so)

SO, this is all just feel good stuff. Stopping the pipeline good, NO. the oil will simply go to china where the pollution standards are, well, essentially zero.
I have lived and worked around the world. Get within 100 miles of china and the wildlife disappears, the air and water are obviously polluted.
Japan is now more polluted than is the '70's and it is because the pollution floats over from china in the air and sea.

The Paris accords. We still were following them, but we got out because it requires US to give china and India $1T (which we have to borrow from, yup, china.)
Smoke and mirrors folks, smoke and mirrors. The coddled kids want your stuff, free stuff and they are lying about it.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Another thing:

A good economy provides money for the arts, civic duties, a better environment.

When you are poor food, housing, warmth are your priorities. Ask and kid from India, Africa, china. They will tell you.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> If we were to go to 0% it would not matter a hoot. China's pollution footprint is still growing along with that of India and much of the world
> the bidenharris team even says that if you listen cloely (kerry was talking about that in the last week or so)
> 
> SO, this is all just feel good stuff. Stopping the pipeline good, NO. the oil will simply go to china where the pollution standards are, well, essentially zero.
> ...



I'm confused: Do you want the Keystone XL pipeline so China doesn't get that oil*****, or do you want the US to look like China with no wildlife and choking pollution?

The towns scattered across southern Louisiana has some of the highest rates of cancer in the US, with a rate of poverty to match, and it is entirely thanks to the petrol and chemical plants. To be honest, I whole-heartedly support a transition to alternative energy and putting money into the research to get us there 100%.

Unless I misunderstood, the "going all electric" announcements only cover government fleets. It's not like there will be an electric car in every garage, carport, and driveway over night. This change will occur naturally as these cars start to get more affordable.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

audacity said:


> I'm confused: Do you want the Keystone XL pipeline so China doesn't get that oil*****, or do you want the US to look like China with no wildlife and choking pollution?
> 
> The towns scattered across southern Louisiana has some of the highest rates of cancer in the US, with a rate of poverty to match, and it is entirely thanks to the petrol and chemical plants. To be honest, I whole-heartedly support a transition to alternative energy and putting money into the research to get us there 100%.
> 
> Unless I misunderstood, the "going all electric" announcements only cover government fleets. It's not like there will be an electric car in every garage, carport, and driveway over night. This change will occur naturally as these cars start to get more affordable.


How do you expect the USA to compete in the world market when handicapped with these little thought out alternative energy plans. 

Generally speaking the USA environment is doing fine with the regulations we have. We could even stand to have them better enforced. Our countries financial situation is horrible and rapidly getting worse. Yet some seem to think its a good thing to increase our financial problems. This cannot continue without serious consequences.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

audacity said:


> I'm confused: Do you want the Keystone XL pipeline so China doesn't get that oil*****, or do you want the US to look like China with no wildlife and choking pollution?
> 
> The towns scattered across southern Louisiana has some of the highest rates of cancer in the US, with a rate of poverty to match, and it is entirely thanks to the petrol and chemical plants. To be honest, I whole-heartedly support a transition to alternative energy and putting money into the research to get us there 100%.
> 
> Unless I misunderstood, the "going all electric" announcements only cover government fleets. It's not like there will be an electric car in every garage, carport, and driveway over night. This change will occur naturally as these cars start to get more affordable.


A couple points:
-TX, a state even more heavily involved with the petrol industry does not share the problems you mentioned with LA, ie- it ain't the oil

-there are already 190,000 miles of oil pipelines criss-crossing the US--another 1000miles for the Keystone won't make any difference. The "environmental factor " in blocking it is pure BS. It's strictly a political ploy.

-if you'd read the cites I posted, 100% alt power generation CANNOT supply enough power-- unless we're willing to go back to a 1920s lifestyle.

-prior to the development of coal as an energy source, all of the British Isles and most of the W. Euro continent were denuded of trees...Use of fossil fuel SAVED the environment there.

- in the same vein, use of fossil fuels has allowed Mankind to flourish. We no longer huddle in our small hovels in winter trying to stay warm. We travel long distances at will and ship goods freely around the world..(Vegetarians couldn't survive without our complex web of supply chains.)

-and something we're all ignoring here is that "The GHG Theory" is UNPROVEN, with most of the scientific evidence showing it isn't very important, even if "true."...(I don't usually makes the following statement because it makes The 
True Believers, who don't understand the theory, claim I'm an unscientific Denier, but GHG Theory is based on a quantum mechanical phenomenon that can't be applied to macro-physics. ..Compare that to the fact that, on the QM level, time travel & quantum tunneling occur, but they cannot be observed on the macro-level.)..Summary-- GHG Theory is a fraud and co2 makes no difference.

-.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

audacity said:


> I'm confused: Do you want the Keystone XL pipeline so China doesn't get that oil*****, or do you want the US to look like China with no wildlife and choking pollution?
> 
> The towns scattered across southern Louisiana has some of the highest rates of cancer in the US, with a rate of poverty to match, and it is entirely thanks to the petrol and chemical plants. To be honest, I whole-heartedly support a transition to alternative energy and putting money into the research to get us there 100%.
> 
> Unless I misunderstood, the "going all electric" announcements only cover government fleets. It's not like there will be an electric car in every garage, carport, and driveway over night. This change will occur naturally as these cars start to get more affordable.


I am not being acidic with this comment bu I do not believe that you understand the issues. 

The cancer in the delta region is the result of past pollution, not what is done now.

Our environmental laws are some of the best in the world. Having the Keystone pipeline come to the gulf will have the oil processed to world standards.
Having the oil sent to china will be a disaster. They do as they will and dam you. 

Sending the oil is evading environmental laws and giving china more money to infringe upon its neighbors.

I dislike your implying that not liking china is racist. Not meant that way, but if it is too bad. They are not our friends. I do not support our enemys.

Jobs are good for the USA. US pollution laws are good for the world. A good economy is an environmentally friendly economy.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Well then, you must get sunshine in Maine. There is not a lot of sunshine in the winter where I am located.
> 
> My concern about electric cars is that they are already limited on distance and it is cold here 7-8 mopnth out of the year and it is necessary to run the heat in the car. Running the heat in an electric car is rumored to cut down considerably on the length of time the battery charge is good for.


I have a farm in Franklin County Maine. They are building a huge solar panel farm there. It looks kind of cool. I hope it works


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I have a farm in Franklin County Maine. They are building a huge solar panel farm there. It looks kind of cool. I hope it works


...But I bet you don't live across the street from it. 

How much good nesting habitat is it permanently eradicating from the region?..Garbage dumps at least get rehabilitated and returned to Nature.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> A good economy is an environmentally friendly economy.


Heretic


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> Heretic



Not sure what you mean.

Most poor peeps anywhere in the world will tell you that the environment is important so long as I am safe, fed, and warm. At least.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

Redlands Okie said:


> How do you expect the USA to compete in the world market when handicapped with these little thought out alternative energy plans.
> 
> Generally speaking the USA environment is doing fine with the regulations we have. We could even stand to have them better enforced. Our countries financial situation is horrible and rapidly getting worse. Yet some seem to think its a good thing to increase our financial problems. This cannot continue without serious consequences.


I expect the USA to compete on a different field. We don't need to be "best at selling and refining oil."

Our country's financial situation isn't related to us not selling oil, it's related to fact that average citizens are not paid decent wages that keep step with inflation while also being saddled with crippling debt.




B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> The cancer in the delta region is the result of past pollution, not what is done now.


Uh-uh, no sir. This state suffers to this day as a direct result of ongoing pollution. This is not a "yesterday" problem. Not even close.




doc- said:


> -there are already 190,000 miles of oil pipelines criss-crossing the US--another 1000miles for the Keystone won't make any difference. The "environmental factor " in blocking it is pure BS. It's strictly a political ploy.


Sir, you already have cancer. A little flu's not going to hurt.




doc- said:


> -if you'd read the cites I posted, 100% alt power generation CANNOT supply enough power-- unless we're willing to go back to a 1920s lifestyle.


Possibly "at this time." 

I am not suggesting that we completely go cold turkey on fossil fuels; however, it's ludicrous to add _more dependence_ on it and continue to push fossil fuels as a complete energy solution when we know we need to be looking for better solutions.



doc- said:


> -prior to the development of coal as an energy source, all of the British Isles and most of the W. Euro continent were denuded of trees...Use of fossil fuel SAVED the environment there.


The British Isles wasn't a very nice place to be at the height of their coal industry, either.



doc- said:


> - in the same vein, use of fossil fuels has allowed Mankind to flourish. We no longer huddle in our small hovels in winter trying to stay warm. We travel long distances at will and ship goods freely around the world..(Vegetarians couldn't survive without our complex web of supply chains.)


That's great! But let's keep moving forward. Just like we stopped making everything out of lead, let's keep looking for materials that do the job in a better way. Sometimes that means saying "no more" to old technologies in order to drive innovation and research into new ones.

And while I am solidly pro-meat, vegetarians have existed for centuries without complex supply chains. Advances in logistics just means they can now enjoy a banana and a dragon fruit at the same time.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

audacity said:


> I expect the USA to compete on a different field. We don't need to be "best at selling and refining oil."
> 
> Our country's financial situation isn't related to us not selling oil, it's related to fact that average citizens are not paid decent wages that keep step with inflation while also being saddled with crippling debt.
> 
> - - - -



We are far from best at selling and refining oil. Also far from best at producing oil. And very likely to remain so. 



With our financial, environmental, trade, business, banking, medical, and other regulations we will not compete with countries such as china.

This countries financial issues has little to do with wages or the debt people have foolishly chosen to acquire. Our financial problems are a result of poor immigration control, debt we have allowed our politicians to place this country under, providing services to those that do not deserve it, uncontrolled corporations, and the whole list of issues listed above.

Our politicians, and corporations fixation on short term goals will ensure these continue. Our voters seem to be pretty much guilty of the same thing. Issues such as providing power and transportation for the population to benefit from is just going to get worse.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

audacity said:


> I expect the USA to compete on a different field. We don't need to be "best at selling and refining oil."
> 
> Our country's financial situation isn't related to us not selling oil, it's related to fact that average citizens are not paid decent wages that keep step with inflation while also being saddled with crippling debt.
> 
> ...


So much wrong with that post...What's the color of the sky in your world?..Over here in reality, it's blue.

American economy saddles us with debt?...Not if you don't buy what you can't afford. Nobody forces you to make purchases.

Pipe line-- search out "pipeline oil spills in US" and then "oil tanker derailments and spills US" Then get back to us with your revised fantasy.

Energy production-- Not at this time? Not ever. The need for back up grows geometrically as demand grows arithmetically. The Theory of Batteries has not changed since Babylonia came up with the first Leyden cells 4000 y/a. There is a theoretical limit to storage capacity and we're close to it now-- and it's entirely inadequate for our expanded needs.

Britain in the 1800s-- London was smoggy. The rest of the country was fine. London pea soupers didn't prevent London from being the center of the civilized world. Their colonial habits which you so strongly object to, brought civilization to large chunks of people who had been living subsistence lives, struggling for survival, worried as much about being eaten by a tiger as about crop failures & starvation....Slavery was practiced by indigenous people since the beginning of the species..How many John Wayne movies involved rescuing white girls from the Indians? Where do you think that concept comes from?

Pollution & cancer--BS. Even the famous Love Canal Disaster of the 70s was based on emotional, not scientific arguments. Residents of the Love Canal development actually suffered no more disease than was statistically predictable for the population... They won their case, but then, we're not talking about justice...We're talking about American courts. Recycling Myths Revisited (perc.org)


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Thanks for resurrecting this thread...On another forum, we were discussing power genration and the new regs that will require al EVs in a decade or so I didsome calcualtions based on current practices--->

Windmill installations require about 1.5ac of pavement for each 1MW of generating power--average tower ~2MW. For the usual wind farm, that means 1 ac out of every 10 is paved over and removed from production for ag or as natural habitat....Right now we have 5000 sq MILES of pavement for wind farms....

...In order to use wind generatiion to provide the juice for an all EV fleet of trucks and cars in this country, we'd have to pave over half the state of CA (70,000 sq mi) for the installations...To use solar farms, increase that by 4-5 times.

How good is all that habitat loss for The Environment?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Saw a couple days ago someplace in California is doing away with their electric buses. They are melting from the sun, probably because the used some lightweight material to build them to make them lighter. Another one of their buses caught fire while charging and burned up and they said the repairs when they break down are too expensive.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc- said:


> ...In order to use wind generatiion to provide the juice for an all EV fleet of trucks and cars in this country, we'd have to pave over half the state of CA (70,000 sq mi) for the installations...To use solar farms, increase that by 4-5 times.
> 
> How good is all that habitat loss for The Environment?


If it was just California that was paved over, it sure would cut down on the number of wildfires in the state.
(just silliness, not an actual suggestion)


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> If it was just California that was paved over, it sure would cut down on the number of wildfires in the state.
> (just silliness, not an actual suggestion)


Not nearly as silly as thinking we can run only EVs and generate the power from wind & solar.

Fossil fuels will become depleted someday. Then we'll probably have to go EV, but the power will come from nuclear. The TreeHuggers just have to do some reading & educate themselves. Policy decisions based on fantasy & emotion are childish.


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