# Screw your freedom



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redirect Notice


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Redirect Notice


I prefer to keep my freedom.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There would be no country and the freedom that goes with it if people had not been willing to do things for the greater good.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Regarding our country, you don't sound like you know what you are talking about.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> Regarding our country, you don't sound like you know what you are talking about.


It may lend more to the conversation if you give another perspective rather than just saying someone else is wrong but not explaining why you think that. Just my opinion of course.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> There would be no country and the freedom that goes with it if people had not been willing to do things for the greater good.


Society is best served by individuals, never the collective.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

todd_xxxx said:


> It may lend more to the conversation if you give another perspective rather than just saying someone else is wrong but not explaining why you think that. Just my opinion of course.


I didn't say she was wrong.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> I didn't say she was wrong.


My mistake. If I say someone doesn't know what they are talking about, it usually means I think they are wrong. I shouldn't have assumed you meant the same.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> There would be no country and the freedom that goes with it if people had not been willing to do things for the greater good.


The key word here is “willing “. I will keep my Freedom and anyone wanting to take it will have a fight on their hands.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)




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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

todd_xxxx said:


> My mistake. If I say someone doesn't know what they are talking about, it usually means I think they are wrong. I shouldn't have assumed you meant the same.


The OP has shared a variety of viewpoints over time that show an independent mind and a willingness to rethink and question. I more times than not disagree with her but respect her honesty in her posts and would rather a thread not become garbage right out of the gate.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> The OP has shared a variety of viewpoints over time that show an independent mind and a willingness to rethink and question. I more times than not disagree with her but respect her honesty in her posts and would rather a thread not become garbage right out of the gate.


I assumed you were talking about Schwarzenegger who was quoted.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Interesting old thread.









"Give me Liberty or give me death!"


The most important fight we as American Homesteaders will ever fight is the fight for our liberty.- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberty Never give up a freedom easily or willing, they are hard to regain. I am perplexed at how much liberty we give up in the quest for safety...




www.homesteadingtoday.com


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> There would be no country and the freedom that goes with it if people had not been willing to do things for the greater good.


I’d say defending our freedom heads the list of things for the greater good.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Eh


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Grafton County Couple (Sep 20, 2018)

OR (Kate Brown) statewide mask mandate for ages 5 and up starts Friday. 
School districts and county/state agencies offering all sorts of assistance with scheduling/getting vaccinated.
Emails from Medicare (encourage others to get vaccinated).
Letter from VA (let us know if you got it. .if you haven't c'mon and get it).
Side bar add on HT site while reading/responding to posts (get vaccinated OR).
Neighbor bothering me re: "those unreasonable people who refuse to get vaccinated" while out on my walk earlier today.
Told the person whether-or-not I got jabbed was none of their business. Also encouraged the individual to consider not interacting with me.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

It's really become crazy with people telling each other what to do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It's really become crazy with people telling each other what to do.


Comply, or suffer the consequences


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Comply, or suffer the consequences


What's the consequence? 

It's a matter of opinion.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

The problem we have, in this country, is that there are many people who share the opinion of the Old Govinator. They are a danger to our country and to the freedom of her citizens. Ask me and I might do it. Tell me and you can count on resistance. I don't care if that is wearing a mask, or, eating a steak dinner.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Comply, or suffer the consequences


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> What's the consequence?
> 
> It's a matter of opinion.


Not allowed entry going from various buildings to countries. 
Job loss. 
Medical treatment sidetracked.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Not allowed entry going from various buildings to countries.
> Job loss.
> Medical treatment sidetracked.


The absurdity is hard to disregard.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm sure Arnie feels like he's done something awesome and made a difference but he did nothing. His tone is arrogant and condescending and people tend to respond poorly to messages like his.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

We have gone from two weeks lock down, a mask, social distance, to business closed, then it was get the miracle shot and all will be good. Each and every time we continue to have to adjust to a new restriction. 

Wear a mask, get the shot, social distance, stay home, whatever. People need to do whatever it is they need for their peace of mind and quit relying on others to make them feel better when its so easy for them to solve it themselves. 

Yes I realize its to much to expect……

All of it over a virus that seriously bothers a very small percentage of the population.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The more coercing the less compliance.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

All these polls are speculation, IMO.

More data to pacify, or enrage, or get the masses arguing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> All these polls are speculation, IMO.
> 
> More data to pacify, or enrage, or get the masses arguing.


Waves of fear, followed by a respite of calm to soften the masses is how your video put it. All with the aim of making us receptive to a more controlling totalitarian form of government.

Serfs and nobles.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> There would be no country and the freedom that goes with it if people had not been willing to do things for the greater good.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> There would be no country and the freedom that goes with it if people had not been willing to do things for the greater good.


There would be no country or freedom if our ancestors did what a tyrannical government told them to do.
Individuals built this country, not the government, not groups of drones.
All the things the toxic left is trying to do away with is what makes this country exceptional.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cornhusker said:


> There would be no country or freedom if our ancestors did what a tyrannical government told them to do.
> Individuals built this country, not the government, not groups of drones.
> All the things the toxic left is trying to do away with is what makes this country exceptional.


Look up "American Exceptionalism". I just did. The definition is now woke, and broke. It is at best an apology, at worse a confession of crimes.

*"American Exceptionalism" is, and has always been, the idea than man can govern himself. We do not bow to royalty. We do not serve a master. When one looks after themselves, and each in turn does the same, good fortune befalls us all.*


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Hiro said:


> View attachment 98983


Seems they wont really offer home vaccine just drop bys to offer info on how to get the vaccine and ofcours spread the covid while standing on your doorstep.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Hiro said:


> View attachment 98993



Is that the same Rand Paul whose wife bought Remdesivir stock back in Feb of 2020, and then didn't report it, which they are legally obligated to do? Just curious.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

todd_xxxx said:


> Is that the same Rand Paul whose wife bought Remdesivir stock back in Feb of 2020, and then didn't report it, which they are legally obligated to do? Just curious.


You are not curious. You are just being a horse's ass


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> Is that the same Rand Paul whose wife bought Remdesivir stock back in Feb of 2020, and then didn't report it, which they are legally obligated to do? Just curious.


Likely an oversight, one that was corrected when the mistake was realized. Why does that have anything to do with what the Senator said?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

HDRider said:


> You are not curious. You are just being a horse's ass


No, I'm pointing out that he is a hypocrite.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

todd_xxxx said:


> No, I'm pointing out that he is a hypocrite.


So, you dispute that his statement is what he believes?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

todd_xxxx said:


> No, I'm pointing out that he is a hypocrite.


Then say that. Be honest. Everyone knows DC is corrupt. They come in with some money and go out with riches beyond belief. All of them. And we vote them back in. The system is broken. The system will not fix itself.


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## MAWL (Feb 2, 2021)

Y'all guys are way out of my league, always have been, which is why I rarely comment. I am all for our personal freedom but from what I am gathering, many of the comments here seem to be geared to people taking care of their own business and all should be well. The problem with mask mandates isn't about them forcing you to do something_ to protect yourselves. _It's about the impact on other people based on your actions. There used to be an old saying that goes something to the effect "your rights end where the next guy's rights begin". The way I understand things, those who refuse to where masks do so at the next guy's expense, maybe even their life, without benefit to themself except to make a point.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

HDRider said:


> Then say that. Be honest. Everyone knows DC is corrupt. They come in with some money and go out with riches beyond belief. All of them. And we vote them back in. The system is broken. The system will not fix itself.


I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. In the future, I'll be sure and spell it out. I'd ask that you do the same.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MAWL said:


> Y'all guys are way out of my league, always have been, which is why I rarely comment. I am all for our personal freedom but from what I am gathering, many of the comments here seem to be geared to people taking care of their own business and all should be well. The problem with mask mandates isn't about them forcing you to do something_ to protect yourselves. _It's about the impact on other people based on your actions. There used to be an old saying that goes something to the effect "your rights end where the next guy's rights begin". The way I understand things, those who refuse to where masks do so at the next guy's expense, maybe even their life, without benefit to themself except to make a point.


No doubt there is wisdom in your comment.

Unfortunately any benefit of masks has been diluted by conflicting and inaccurate information. Our current state is a result of not have trustworthy sources and direction. Everything appears to be geared to moving money out of our pocket into someone else's.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

todd_xxxx said:


> I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. In the future, I'll be sure and spell it out. I'd ask that you do the same.


I think I spelled that out very clearly.

Again, you are not being honest. You masked your real message with aspersions.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

HDRider said:


> I think I spelled that very clearly.
> 
> Again, you are not being honest. You masked your real message with aspersions.


I wasn't talking about that post in particular, but it seems that no matter what I have to say, you are going to immediately jump on it and try to find fault. That said, I'll refrain from commenting on your posts, and hope you enjoy your day.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

todd_xxxx said:


> I'll refrain from commenting on your posts


That might be best for both of us.


todd_xxxx said:


> hope you enjoy your day


Again I question your honesty, I don't think you meant that


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MAWL said:


> Y'all guys are way out of my league, always have been, which is why I rarely comment. I am all for our personal freedom but from what I am gathering, many of the comments here seem to be geared to people taking care of their own business and all should be well. The problem with mask mandates isn't about them forcing you to do something_ to protect yourselves. _It's about the impact on other people based on your actions. There used to be an old saying that goes something to the effect "your rights end where the next guy's rights begin". The way I understand things, those who refuse to where masks do so at the next guy's expense, maybe even their life, without benefit to themself except to make a point.


Don’t let anything stop you from participating, if you have something to say. That opinion is as valid as anyone else’s, and more articulate than many. That said, it seems to be full of holes.

First, it’s at least a little bit ironic that you mention where individual rights begin and end. You’re making the assertion that your (collective “you”) have the right to be free from a natural virus that my body may or may not harbor, and enforcement of that right means me having to wear something on my face. A common saying about the limits of rights is “your right to swing your fists ends at the tip of my nose”, but you now quite literally want to enforce your rights by hanging something on the tip of my nose. Wouldn’t it make more sense that, if you want to exert your claimed right to be free from my viruses, that you hang something from your nose, and leave mine alone?

Besides, our own St. Fauci told us that masks weren’t effective, and that we didn’t need to wear them. Of course, it later came out that he was saying that because he didn’t want us hoarding masks and causing a shortage for health-care workers. So, which is it? Are we putting others’ lives at risk by not wearing a mask, and The Mask Czar put all of our lives at risk for the sake of a hypothetical supply chain? Either neither are true, or both are true.

Finally, those who don’t want to wear the mask are not just doing it “for no benefit to themselves other than to make a point”. Masking has been shown to carry its own risk. People, including children, have passed out and died from wearing the mask. There has been at least one study that determined that you’re more likely to get Covid from a mask, unless you only use N95s, and follow the strict destruction/sterilization protocols. Now, maybe that study came to a false result, and “they” are right that masks reduce our risk, but how do we know which time they were telling us the truth?

If you really feel strongly about the benefits of a masked public, you shouldn’t waste your time trying to convince those who don’t believe in their efficacy. Your time would be much better spent trying to convince our rulers not to lie to us, and, maybe, more people will choose to believe them the next time something like this comes up.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Besides, our own St. Fauci told us that masks weren’t effective, and that we didn’t need to wear them. Of course, it later came out that he was saying that because he didn’t want us hoarding masks and causing a shortage for health-care workers. So, which is it? Are we putting others’ lives at risk by not wearing a mask, and The Mask Czar put all of our lives at risk for the sake of a hypothetical supply chain? Either neither are true, or both are true.
> 
> Finally, those who don’t want to wear the mask are not just doing it “for no benefit to themselves other than to make a point”. Masking has been shown to carry its own risk. People, including children, have passed out and died from wearing the mask. There has been at least one study that determined that you’re more likely to get Covid from a mask, unless you only use N95s, and follow the strict destruction/sterilization protocols. Now, maybe that study came to a false result, and “they” are right that masks reduce our risk, but how do we know which time they were telling us the truth?
> 
> If you really feel strongly about the benefits of a masked public, you shouldn’t waste your time trying to convince those who don’t believe in their efficacy. Your time would be much better spent trying to convince our rulers not to lie to us, and, maybe, more people will choose to believe them the next time something like this comes up.


I agree with this. I knew when they first told us not to wear masks that they were lying to protect supply, as most people did. I think they also engendered a lot of mistrust with the cover up over the virus origin. I went from thinking the CDC was fairly infallible to seeing it as an organization that is heavily prone to politicization.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No, Todd, that comment about his wife wasn’t pointing out his hypocrisy.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

MAWL said:


> The way I understand things, those who refuse to where masks do so at the next guy's expense, maybe even their life, without benefit to themself except to make a point.


The thing of it is, masks do very little to stop the spread of viruses. Think of it as a chain link fence. Thinking of it in those terms bacteria would be the size of softballs and baseballs. A chain link fence would, no doubt, stop most of things that size. Using the same scale, viruses would be like grains of sand. Do an experiment. Get a vape pen and inhale the vapor. Put a mask over your face and exhale. that, fog that will not even be slowed down by the mask, could carry millions of virus particles. 
Why we resist the mask is that, for one, we don't do as we are told, especially when what they want us to do is nothing more than a way to measure compliance. Wash your hands and social distance, but, forget the stupid compliance tag.

ETA: "masks" in the above context, are the cheap cloth nose and mouth coverings. N-95's and other masks that are designed to filter viruses do so rather efficiently.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> The thing of it is, masks do very little to stop the spread of viruses. Think of it as a chain link fence. Thinking of it in those terms bacteria would be the size of softballs and baseballs. A chain link fence would, no doubt, stop most of things that size. Using the same scale, viruses would be like grains of sand. Do an experiment. Get a vape pen and inhale the vapor. Put a mask over your face and exhale. that, fog that will not even be slowed down by the mask, could carry millions of virus particles.
> Why we resist the mask is that, for one, we don't do as we are told, especially when what they want us to do is nothing more than a way to measure compliance. Wash your hands and social distance, but, forget the stupid compliance tag.
> 
> ETA: "masks" in the above context, are the cheap cloth nose and mouth coverings. N-95's and other masks that are designed to filter viruses do so rather efficiently.











PolitiFact - No, a vaping demo doesn’t prove that masks don’t work against COVID-19


In a video clip being shared on Facebook, a retired anesthesiologist who rails against mask wearing to protect against C




www.politifact.com





"The clip demonstrates that "to work properly, even the best masks or respirators need to fit properly, without gaps, and not everything that looks like a really good mask necessarily has good filtration," said Stephen Morse, professor of epidemiology at the Columbia University Medical Center. 

But "it is a leap to go from there to generalizing that ‘masks don’t work,’" he said. Many peer-reviewed studies show "that masks do have a significant effect. They do work, when used properly."


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

"Screw your freedom."-Arnold Schwarzenegger 

Well Arnie....

And the horse you rode in on.

KWIM?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> PolitiFact - No, a vaping demo doesn’t prove that masks don’t work against COVID-19
> 
> 
> In a video clip being shared on Facebook, a retired anesthesiologist who rails against mask wearing to protect against C
> ...


Did you not read my ETA: section? Here ya go:


Farmerga said:


> ETA: "masks" in the above context, are the cheap cloth nose and mouth coverings. N-95's and other masks that are designed to filter viruses do so rather efficiently.


The "Mandates" are not for N-95's or any other mask designed and fitted to the wearer, are they? No, they are for a "cloth covering that covers the nose and mouth". So, I stand by my statement. And it would seem that Dr. Morse would back what I said.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> PolitiFact - No, a vaping demo doesn’t prove that masks don’t work against COVID-19
> 
> 
> In a video clip being shared on Facebook, a retired anesthesiologist who rails against mask wearing to protect against C
> ...


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> No, Todd, that comment about his wife wasn’t pointing out his hypocrisy.


I think that him speaking out against things that prevent people from catching covid, while investing his money in treatments for it, makes him a hypocrite, or at very least, calls into question whether he believes what he is saying, considering he has a financial gain to be made if people do get covid. I don't expect anyone to agree.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think that him speaking out against things that prevent people from catching covid, while investing his money in treatments for it, makes him a hypocrite, or at very least, calls into question whether he believes what he is saying, considering he has a financial gain to be made if people do get covid. I don't expect anyone to agree.


I have heard him speaking out against people using this virus to erode freedoms, not "things that prevent people from catching Covid".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think that him speaking out against things that prevent people from catching covid, while investing his money in treatments for it, makes him a hypocrite, or at very least, calls into question whether he believes what he is saying, considering he has a financial gain to be made if people do get covid. I don't expect anyone to agree.


Or he knows COVID is real, and happens to be a good place to invest. I’ve not heard him speak out against any proven science.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Farmerga said:


> I have heard him speaking out against people using this virus to erode freedoms, not "things that prevent people from catching Covid".


So, what freedoms were those he was talking about in this case?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Evons hubby said:


> Or he knows COVID is real, and happens to be a good place to invest. I’ve not heard him speak out against any proven science.


Is there any real point in discussing that if no one agrees on what the proven science is?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> So, what freedoms were those he was talking about in this case?


The freedom to go about our business as we please.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> Is there any real point in discussing that if no one agrees on what the proven science is?


My point exactly.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> So, what freedoms were those he was talking about in this case?


Closing of small businesses, other lock downs, forcing folks to comply, etc..


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Evons hubby said:


> The freedom to go about our business as we please.





Farmerga said:


> Closing of small businesses, other lock downs, forcing folks to comply, etc..


Mask wearing? The latest news from Mayo Clinic says it doesn't stop covid transmission completely, which I think everyone knew, but it helps. Vaccines? No question that they are effective. Lockdowns? While I'm very much against them, I don't know that there is much question that the less you interact with other people, the less likely you are to get covid. So, yes, I think the erosion of freedoms he was talking, and that you gave as examples, are the things that help prevent covid. 

I would be far more apt to believe he was sincere, as opposed to saying what his followers want to hear, if he didn't have a financial interest in treating covid. Many people on HT seem to believe there is always some nefarious motive behind whatever a politician says, but that seems to be suspended if he is saying something you want to hear. What do people often say on here? "Follow the money."


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

todd_xxxx said:


> financial interest in treating covid


His wife invested a lousy $15K.

The current speaker has never held a job outside government and is worth one hundred million dollars

Curb your outrage


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> Mask wearing? The latest news from Mayo Clinic says it doesn't stop covid transmission completely, which I think everyone knew, but it helps. Vaccines? No question that they are effective. Lockdowns? While I'm very much against them, I don't know that there is much question that the less you interact with other people, the less likely you are to get covid. So, yes, I think the erosion of freedoms he was talking, and that you gave as examples, are the things that help prevent covid.
> 
> I would be far more apt to believe he was sincere, as opposed to saying what his followers want to hear, if he didn't have a financial interest in treating covid. Many people on HT seem to believe there is always some nefarious motive behind whatever a politician says, but that seems to be suspended if he is saying something you want to hear. What do people often say on here? "Follow the money."


e
Do you not see the difference between attacking that which may work, and FORCING people to comply with what YOU(Government) says works? Like I have said if government tried to FORCE me to eat a steak dinner every Friday and they would pay for it, I would resist. Not because I don't like steak, but, because they are using force. I hate force more than I like steak. 

ETA: I have had the vaccine and I employ social distancing. Why? Because I have been convinced that they work and, when I employed them, there wasn't a government telling me that I must.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> His wife invested a lousy $15K.
> 
> The current speaker has never held a job outside government and is worth one hundred million dollars
> 
> Curb your outrage


The current speaker also has a successful spouse and quite a bit of that income is from his real-estate investments.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

What are the results of Sweden’s much-derided laissez-faire policy? Data show the 7-day rolling average for COVID deaths yesterday was _zero _(see below). As in _nada_. And it’s been at zero for about a week now. 








Daily COVID Deaths in Sweden Hit Zero, as Other Nations Brace for...


Opinion | More than 100,000 people flooded streets in France over the weekend and multiple COVID vaccination centers were vandalized as opposition grew to the government’s most recent pandemic strategy. In President Emmanuel Macron’s latest incarnation of lockdowns, government officials have...




thevaccinereaction.org





Sweden's health ministry doesn't recommend mask wearing as a preventative measure against the coronavirus.

The strategy contrasts with most other countries, where mask wearing in indoor settings often remained a rule even as governments were recording low case numbers.








No-lockdown Sweden broke with most of the world and didn't require face masks. Those who wear them say they're treated with suspicion and abuse.


Sweden never locked down or had a mask mandate. It only recommends people wear them during rush hour on public transport.




www.businessinsider.com


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> The current speaker also has a successful spouse and quite a bit of that income is from his real-estate investments.


SHE is worth over $100 million.

HIS is over $120 million.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Farmerga said:


> e
> Do you not see the difference between attacking that which may work, and FORCING people to comply with what YOU(Government) says works? Like I have said if government tried to FORCE me to eat a steak dinner every Friday and they would pay for it, I would resist. Not because I don't like steak, but, because they are using FORCE and I hate force more than I love steak.


I didn't say I agree with forcing anyone to do anything, so I'm not sure why you're putting that on me. I'm simply pointing out that I doubt the motives of people on the right, as well as people on the left.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> Mask wearing? The latest news from Mayo Clinic says it doesn't stop covid transmission completely, which I think everyone knew, but it helps. Vaccines? No question that they are effective. Lockdowns? While I'm very much against them, I don't know that there is much question that the less you interact with other people, the less likely you are to get covid. So, yes, I think the erosion of freedoms he was talking, and that you gave as examples, are the things that help prevent covid.
> 
> I would be far more apt to believe he was sincere, as opposed to saying what his followers want to hear, if he didn't have a financial interest in treating covid. Many people on HT seem to believe there is always some nefarious motive behind whatever a politician says, but that seems to be suspended if he is saying something you want to hear. What do people often say on here? "Follow the money."


I think there are far too many ifs in the equation for anyone to claim “accepted science” when it comes to COVID. Certainly not enough for the government to impose mandates, lockdowns and other infringements upon the people.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> I didn't say I agree with forcing anyone to do anything, so I'm not sure why you're putting that on me. I'm simply pointing out that I doubt the motives of people on the right, as well as people on the left.


I fail to see how someone has to be against "science" to be against Force of government when it comes to COVID. One can invest in a treatment and not be in favor of shoving that treatment down the throats of citizens.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Farmerga said:


> One can invest in a treatment and not be in favor of shoving that treatment down the throats of citizens.


I made good spending money in high school “investing” in the outcomes of boxing matches if Cassius clay was in the ring.... didn’t really like his personality, but it was sound investing.


----------



## MAWL (Feb 2, 2021)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Don’t let anything stop you from participating, if you have something to say. That opinion is as valid as anyone else’s, and more articulate than many. That said, it seems to be full of holes.
> 
> First, it’s at least a little bit ironic that you mention where individual rights begin and end. You’re making the assertion that your (collective “you”) have the right to be free from a natural virus that my body may or may not harbor, and enforcement of that right means me having to wear something on my face. A common saying about the limits of rights is “your right to swing your fists ends at the tip of my nose”, but you now quite literally want to enforce your rights by hanging something on the tip of my nose. Wouldn’t it make more sense that, if you want to exert your claimed right to be free from my viruses, that you hang something from your nose, and leave mine alone?
> 
> ...


Addressing your first paragraph... hanging a mask off of my own nose does not protect me from a virus that you may have... it protects you. The mask that you would wear protects me. I don't comprehend why such a thing needs to be mandated. 

Regarding the balance, you'll get no argument from me.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MAWL said:


> Addressing your first paragraph... hanging a mask off of my own nose does not protect me from a virus that you may have... it protects you. The mask that you would wear protects me. I don't comprehend why such a thing needs to be mandated.
> 
> Regarding the balance, you'll get no argument from me.


So wearing a mask doesn’t keep the virus from getting in? It only keeps it from getting out? I thought masks would be MUCH more expensive with thousands of one-way valves installed in the weave. 

I can’t keep up with what’s real anymore. Help me with this equation, if you can:
We’re both standing in a Walmart, only five feet apart, both of us have a cold but the doctors are diagnosing all respiratory infections as Covid that day. Neither of us coughs or sneezes on the other, but one of us is talking and the other is quietly singing a religious hymn. The one that’s talking is wearing a Black Lives Matter t-shirt. The one singing is wearing a pro 2A shirt, but it WAS made in China at a factory that benefits a congressman.

SO- are we more or less likely to get the Covid than we would have been in the same situation, standing in the independent sporting goods store across the street??

Can you help me?

*Edit to add:* _Sorry. I forgot the most important variable. My bad. The same congressman who is paid by the Chinese factory that made the pro 2A shirt also receives a big campaign donation from Walmart… and doesn’t care for baseball. _


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

My head is spinning


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Waves of fear, followed by a respite of calm to soften the masses is how your video put it. All with the aim of making us receptive to a more controlling totalitarian form of government.
> 
> Serfs and nobles.



Clarification - it's not MY video. 

But yes, waves of fear and bickering.
And I noticed it long before I watched that video.
It's been obvious, to be honest, the sensationalism of it all.
I know I am not alone in that.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I thought the US was done with masks.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Todd. My money and my husband’s money are separate things. Your assumption is incorrect about HER investment money being HIS investment money or that he even knows where her investment money goes.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> The current speaker also has a successful spouse and quite a bit of that income is from his real-estate investments.


I just found this.








Nancy and Paul Pelosi Making Millions in Stock Trades in Companies She Actively Regulates


The Speaker, already one of the richest members in Congress, has become far richer through investment maneuvers in Big Tech, as she privately chats with their CEOs.




greenwald.substack.com





The sector in which the Pelosis most frequently buy and sell stocks is, by far, the Silicon Valley tech industry. Close to 75% of the Pelosis’ stock trading over the last two years has been in Big Tech: more than $33 million worth of trading. That has happened as major legislation is pending before the House, controlled by the Committees Pelosi oversees, which could radically reshape the industry and laws that govern the very companies in which she and her husband most aggressively trade.



https://pfds.opensecrets.org/N00007360_2018.pdf


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Look at the protection gear.

Dang it. Bad signal. Will post later.


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Todd. My money and my husband’s money are separate things. Your assumption is incorrect about HER investment money being HIS investment money or that he even knows where her investment money goes.


My money and my lady's money are not the same either, but she sure does know where my investments are. Otherwise, what if something happened to me? We discuss investments before either of us makes them, if only to bounce ideas off one another or to see what the other thinks about it. Maybe we are the exception in that way, I don't know. I didn't make any assumption that her investment money was his investment money. I would wager that they discussed it and he knew that she was investing in that stock. Regardless, I don't care either way. I'm suffering from the covid exhaustion someone mentioned earlier and I don't really believe anyone has any interest in hearing what anyone else has to say about it, unless it is someone that voices agreement.


----------



## MAWL (Feb 2, 2021)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> So wearing a mask doesn’t keep the virus from getting in? It only keeps it from getting out? I thought masks would be MUCH more expensive with thousands of one-way valves installed in the weave.
> 
> I can’t keep up with what’s real anymore. Help me with this equation, if you can:
> We’re both standing in a Walmart, only five feet apart, both of us have a cold but the doctors are diagnosing all respiratory infections as Covid that day. Neither of us coughs or sneezes on the other, but one of us is talking and the other is quietly singing a religious hymn. The one that’s talking is wearing a Black Lives Matter t-shirt. The one singing is wearing a pro 2A shirt, but it WAS made in China at a factory that benefits a congressman.
> ...


Sorry, like I said in my earlier post. Y'all guys are way over my pay grade. I don't understand your question.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MAWL said:


> Sorry, like I said in my earlier post. Y'all guys are way over my pay grade. I don't understand your question.


Don’t worry. I don’t understand it either.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think that him speaking out against things that prevent people from catching covid, while investing his money in treatments for it, makes him a hypocrite, or at very least, calls into question whether he believes what he is saying, considering he has a financial gain to be made if people do get covid. I don't expect anyone to agree.





todd_xxxx said:


> My money and my lady's money are not the same either, but she sure does know where my investments are. Otherwise, what if something happened to me? We discuss investments before either of us makes them, if only to bounce ideas off one another or to see what the other thinks about it. Maybe we are the exception in that way, I don't know. I didn't make any assumption that her investment money was his investment money. I would wager that they discussed it and he knew that she was investing in that stock. Regardless, I don't care either way. I'm suffering from the covid exhaustion someone mentioned earlier and I don't really believe anyone has any interest in hearing what anyone else has to say about it, unless it is someone that voices agreement.


But the point you were trying to make was that he was a hypocrite because his investment brought into question whether or not he really believed what he was saying. It turns out that it is his wife’s money, and, even if they do discuss it like you suggested, are you supposing that he could shut down her investment because he doesn’t believe in it? It just seems like there wasn’t a point there at all beyond seeing an opportunity to take a cheap shot at someone who disagrees with your view.

Physician, heal thyself.


The potential point, if it wasn’t a logical flop, brings up an interesting discussion point, though: if you found that two people were heavily invested in a miracle cure for a disease that’s merit is the subject of intense debate, would you be more skeptical of the one who says it’s not needed, but stands to profit if it is successful, or the one who says it is needed, and stands to profit if it is successful?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

wr said:


> I thought the US was done with masks.


The last week of July the CDC changed it's collective mind and now says everyone in high transmission areas should wear a mask indoors.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/27/cdc-masks-guidance-indoors/


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

My granddaughter’s pediatrician told my daughter today that she is better off keeping her out of her preschool this fall if she can. He’s normally pretty laid back but he’s not liking what he’s seeing with the Delta variant and said they can’t do everything for small kids that they can for adults. She’s only 2.5 so not a big deal but that’s worrisome.

Meanwhile our state superintendent of schools is asking the governor to mandate the vaccine for all teachers and school employees. I’m hoping they do. Especially if they give an alternative of weekly testing like another state is asking.


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

HDRider said:


> My head is spinning


Oh no! You've got the covid 😲 It's not a tooma.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> My granddaughter’s pediatrician told my daughter today that she is better off keeping her out of her preschool this fall if she can. He’s normally pretty laid back but he’s not liking what he’s seeing with the Delta variant and said they can’t do everything for small kids that they can for adults. She’s only 2.5 so not a big deal but that’s worrisome.
> 
> Meanwhile our state superintendent of schools is asking the governor to mandate the vaccine for all teachers and school employees. I’m hoping they do. Especially if they give an alternative of weekly testing like another state is asking.


I favor the idea of a choice between vaccination or daily testing. I think you'll find the desired results will be achieved fairly quickly, without forcing anyone.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> I favor the idea of a choice between vaccination or daily testing. I think you'll find the desired results will be achieved fairly quickly, without forcing anyone.


agreed. Or even weekly testing.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If a vaxxed or unvaxxed can spread the virus, and the vaxxed suffers less than an unvaxxed why do vaxxed care if some choose to not vax?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Unvaxxed are hospitalized and die more. They stress the health care systems and the financial costs end up raising everyone's health care cost.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Unvaxxed are hospitalized and die more. They stress the health care systems and the financial costs end up raising everyone's health care cost.


Hyperbole


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

From what I‘ve read, symptomatic and asymptomatic breakthrough virus in the vaccinated is still uncommon even with the Delta variant. So vaccinated people are not apt to transmit disease they don’t have.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Hyperbole


I don’t know how that is possibly hyperbole.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

See How Vaccines Can Make the Difference in Delta Variant’s Impact (Published 2021)


In a Times simulation, we modeled Delta-driven Covid outbreaks in two communities, one with a high vaccination rate and another with a low rate. Their levels of serious illness and death were starkly different.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Our tax dollars at work promoting the vaccine 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424821446166130688


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

A. How much did they pay him?
B. Why wouldn’t they promote the vaccine that Trump asked to be developed when it’s what our leading doctors and scientists agree it’s what is best for the country?
C. I find him weird as hell but if he gets more young people vaccinated, then ok.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)




----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Carnival Cruise Lines just announced they had 27 cases of covid in vaccinated people on one of their ships. 26 people were crew members.









27 vaccinated people test positive for Covid on a Carnival cruise ship


Only one of the positive cases on the Carnival cruise ship was a passenger and the remaining 26 were crew members.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Carnival Cruise Lines just announced they had 27 cases of covid in vaccinated people on one of their ships. 26 people were crew members.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


im guessing it’s all vaccinated people because they had to prove vaccination?
But really, how do we know that those who claim they are vaccinated really are?
Even here people have said they’d buy fake vaccine cards.
At any rate, now they will be requiring a test too, so that’s smart. At least no one is seriously ill.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> View attachment 99047


I know it is easy to believe the Leftist lie that those who resist draconian mandates from crazy Leftists are "Rejecting modern medicine" but, it is FORCE that we reject.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Since 26 cases were among the crew and Carnival has required vaccines for employees I would think the cruise line knows the vaccination status of the crew.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Since 26 cases were among the crew and Carnival has required vaccines for employees I would think the cruise line knows the vaccination status of the crew.


Unless the crew lied.
But either way, it shows the vaccine is working.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> I know it is easy to believe the Leftist lie that those who resist draconian mandates from crazy Leftists are "Rejecting modern medicine" but, it is FORCE that we reject.


I have no problem with you dying like a medieval peasant. Go forth and COVID. If you reject the mRNA vaccines which have already been shown to be incredibly safe then I expect you to refuse to go to a hospital for care when you come down with COVID. I applaud your willingness to die or have those close to you for your beliefs.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I know it is easy to believe the Leftist lie that those who resist draconian mandates from crazy Leftists are "Rejecting modern medicine" but, it is FORCE that we reject.


So you’re saying you’d get it if they just ask nicely and stop twisting your arm?
Or did you already get it? No one has been forced to get it that I know of yet.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Wow, when they come to force the unvaxed I hope they don't become death wishers and haters like the vaxxed.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

todd_xxxx said:


> No, I'm pointing out that he is a hypocrite.


A person can be a hypocrite, a good person, or senator, all at the same time…….


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MAWL said:


> Y'all guys are way out of my league, always have been, which is why I rarely comment. I am all for our personal freedom but from what I am gathering, many of the comments here seem to be geared to people taking care of their own business and all should be well. The problem with mask mandates isn't about them forcing you to do something_ to protect yourselves. _It's about the impact on other people based on your actions. There used to be an old saying that goes something to the effect "your rights end where the next guy's rights begin". The way I understand things, those who refuse to where masks do so at the next guy's expense, maybe even their life, without benefit to themself except to make a point.


If efficient mask, worn correctly was part of the plan it would help. Then people would not depend on someone else’s supposedly showing they care, by wearing a blue patch in front of their mouth. Pretty good example of not actually caring about others life, just a show being put on with the poor quality products and applications.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Glad to see you posting MAWL. Would be nice if more did


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## MAWL (Feb 2, 2021)

Redlands Okie said:


> Glad to see you posting MAWL. Would be nice if more did


Thanks!


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> PolitiFact - No, a vaping demo doesn’t prove that masks don’t work against COVID-19
> 
> 
> In a video clip being shared on Facebook, a retired anesthesiologist who rails against mask wearing to protect against C
> ...


Significant effect is a pretty loose term in this case. Mask used properly is a very good point. 
It is a sad thing that so many people do not have he training, will power, or the funds, or other reasons to obtain good mask and wear it correctly.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have no problem with you dying like a medieval peasant. Go forth and COVID. If you reject the mRNA vaccines which have already been shown to be incredibly safe then I expect you to refuse to go to a hospital for care when you come down with COVID. I applaud your willingness to die or have those close to you for your beliefs.


I got a covid vax but it wasn't the mRNA, the J&J which my doctor recommended.

So I guess I'd miss out on your wishing death on others. Personally I don't give a rat's behind whether a person gets the vax or not.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Significant effect is a pretty loose term in this case. Mask used properly is a very good point.
> It is a sad thing that so many people do not have he training, will power, or the funds, or other reasons to obtain good mask and wear it correctly.


It would be nice as well if people wouldn't admit that wearing a mask is something that does work and not a grab at your freedom. Maybe then everyone could focus on how to prop wearing a mask.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> So you’re saying you’d get it if they just ask nicely and stop twisting your arm?
> Or did you already get it? No one has been forced to get it that I know of yet.


I got the shot it back in April. If they had tried to mandate it, at that time, I would have refused. 
I resist the mask because, for one, unless it is a fitted mask designed to filter virus particles, it is almost useless and they try to mandate it.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I got the shot it back in April. If they had tried to mandate it, at that time, I would have refused.
> I resist the mask because, for one, unless it is a fitted mask designed to filter virus particles, it is almost useless and they try to mandate it.


Do you refuse to wear a seat belt and get a driver's license as well?


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have no problem with you dying like a medieval peasant. Go forth and COVID. If you reject the mRNA vaccines which have already been shown to be incredibly safe then I expect you to refuse to go to a hospital for care when you come down with COVID. I applaud your willingness to die or have those close to you for your beliefs.


You are almost as stupid as you are ignorant. I HAVE HAD the vaccine. I got it as soon as it became available to me. You seem to either be too stupid to read what I write, or, too ignorant to understand what we are fighting against. We don't reject the vaccine, we don't reject the social distancing, we don't reject hand washing, and we don't reject any other reasonable effective practice/ treatment. We reject FORCE of government.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Unvaxxed are hospitalized and die more. They stress the health care systems and the financial costs end up raising everyone's health care cost.


Good point, but that’s how the free market system works.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Do you refuse to wear a seat belt and get a driver's license as well?


Those are required for the PRIVILEGE of driving on GOVERNMENT MAINTAINED roads.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Those are required for the PRIVILEGE of driving on GOVERNMENT MAINTAINED roads.


Face masks or vaccines may be required for the privilege of going into businesses or schools.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Face masks or vaccines may be required for the privilege of going into businesses or schools.


Government hasn't the right to mandate masks or vaccines to enter a private businesses. I can and do avoid public schools.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Good point, but that’s how the free market system works.


I’d think a pure free market system wouldn’t take patients without funds or insurance.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I got the shot it back in April. If they had tried to mandate it, at that time, I would have refused.
> I resist the mask because, for one, unless it is a fitted mask designed to filter virus particles, it is almost useless and they try to mandate it.


So you are saying that you could be manipulated into not doing something you want to do simply because someone tells you to do it?


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> So you are saying that you could be manipulated into not doing something you want to do simply because someone tells you to do it?


Just government. If they don't have the right to mandate X, it is our duty to resist.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Government hasn't the right to mandate masks or vaccines to enter a private businesses. I can and do avoid public schools.


Public health laws give them that right. Seat belts are another example.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I got the shot it back in April. If they had tried to mandate it, at that time, I would have refused.
> I resist the mask because, for one, unless it is a fitted mask designed to filter virus particles, it is almost useless and they try to mandate it.


Do you also believe that people should not sneeze into their arms or cover their mouths when they cough?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Just government. If they don't have the right to mandate X, it is our duty to resist.


Would you have resisted blackouts during WW2?


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Public health laws give them that right. Seat belts are another example.


Public health laws are the cover they use, it doesn't give them the right.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> It would be nice as well if people wouldn't admit that wearing a mask is something that does work and not a grab at your freedom. Maybe then everyone could focus on how to prop wearing a mask.


If people really in truly cared then they would wear a proper fit n-95 mask or better, otherwise its just a virtue signal. Side benefit of such actions would be people could stop worrying about what others are doing. 

A enforced government mandate to have n-95 masks manufactured and available would be nice. Still not been done…….


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> Would you have resisted blackouts during WW2?


Hard to say. If they could convince me that they were needed, probably not.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Face masks or vaccines may be required for the privilege of going into businesses or schools.


Government business and government schools? Silly but it is what it is. 

Private places should not be in the government overview.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> If people really in truly cared then they would wear a proper fit n-95 mask or better, otherwise its just a virtue signal. Side benefit of such actions would be people could stop worrying about what others are doing.
> 
> A enforced government mandate to have n-95 masks manufactured and available would be nice. Still not been done…….


So is it better for people with a cold or flu to cough or sneeze into a kleenex, short, elbow, etc. or just to sneeze with no barrier?


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> It would be nice as well if people wouldn't admit that wearing a mask is something that does work and not a grab at your freedom. Maybe then everyone could focus on how to prop wearing a mask.


The didn't seem to work well at all in Alberta and Ontario. Throughout the time that masks were mandatory, infection rates climbed like crazy. 

It was the best option we had at the time and we were never told that it does work, we were told that masks and safe social distancing could help reduce the spread.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Face masks or vaccines may be required for the privilege of going into businesses or schools.


Shockingly, I have a different take. Masking small children is child abuse, nothing more and nothing less.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> I’d think a pure free market system wouldn’t take patients without funds or insurance.


Some do not. Those that accept government funding usually do so. However such places do not provide the attention and care to those without funds that they do to those with funds. Not even close to the same treatment.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Seatbelts were mandated as part of the lobbying from the insurance companies to save money. Not because the government cares about the occupants.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

wr said:


> The didn't seem to work well at all in Alberta and Ontario. Throughout the time that masks were mandatory, infection rates climbed like crazy.
> 
> It was the best option we had at the time and we were never told that it does work, we were told that masks and safe social distancing could help reduce the spread.


It is simple to understand why mask mandates make things worse. I noticed that when people wear masks, others forget about social distancing and pack close together. When I would go without a mask, people would give me lots of room.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> The didn't seem to work well at all in Alberta and Ontario. Throughout the time that masks were mandatory, infection rates climbed like crazy.
> 
> It was the best option we had at the time and we were never told that it does work, we were told that masks and safe social distancing could help reduce the spread.


Yet , you have no proof that masks did not divide the rate of rise or that other factors cwere not at play. You simp do not have enough info to jump from a to b.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> Do you also believe that people should not sneeze into their arms or cover their mouths when they cough?


That makes me smile. Remember not to long ago, when the government said to do so for everyone’s benefit? Well it seems people were not able to do so, and we now have mask mandates. Somehow these same people are going to wear a proper fitted mask…..


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> That makes me smile. Remember not to long ago, when the government said to do so for everyone’s benefit? Well it seems people were not able to do so, and we now have mask mandates. Somehow these same people are going to wear a proper fitted mask…..


That really isn’t an answer. 
Do you believe that people should cover their faces when coughing or sneezing or just do it openly with no barrier?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Some do not. Those that accept government funding usually do so. However such places do not provide the attention and care to those without funds that they do to those with funds. Not even close to the same treatment.


It’s really not a pure free market if the government pays for anything.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> So is it better for people with a cold or flu to cough or sneeze into a kleenex, short, elbow, etc. or just to sneeze with no barrier?


The elbow and hand was considered adequate. It THEY wish to do more then fine. I personally could not care less. If I am concerned I have good masks and know how to wear them. Hopefully access to good mask will continue and get better.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> The elbow and hand was considered adequate. It THEY wish to do more then fine. I personally could not care less. If I am concerned I have good masks and know how to wear them. Hopefully access to good mask will continue and get better.


Masks will work at least as well and likely better than a hand, elbow or Kleenex to stop the spray of sputum Carrying virus particles.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> It’s really not a pure free market if the government pays for anything.


I agree. 

The government should not be providing funds for some and not for all. Same for Services, if the government cannot provide the care that the private system does, then they should not get involved at all.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> Masks will work at least as well and likely better than a hand, elbow or Kleenex to stop the spray of sputum Carrying virus particles.


Hmm, perhaps somehow all 4 of them could be used. No need for two mask that way. Easy way to show a person cares and it spares a mask for others to access.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> You are almost as stupid as you are ignorant. I HAVE HAD the vaccine. I got it as soon as it became available to me. You seem to either be too stupid to read what I write, or, too ignorant to understand what we are fighting against. We don't reject the vaccine, we don't reject the social distancing, we don't reject hand washing, and we don't reject any other reasonable effective practice/ treatment. We reject FORCE of government.


Talk about stupid and ignorant. If you all would do the right thing then force would not be a point of discussion. And note that I didn't say the government should force anyone. I said that if a person has chosen not to get vaccinated then they should be left to the consequences of their choice. There is a significant difference between those things. 

If you reject force of government then you are saying there should be no penalties for murder, child abuse, rape and a whole host of other activities. Force of government is exactly one of the consequences people who engage in such activities face. Hell, why have any sort of society. Let's just have rule by whichever individual or random group can exert the most force. Bring back slavery.

So which group of "we" assigned you to be spokesperson?


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Talk about stupid and ignorant. If you all would do the right thing then force would not be a point of discussion. And note that I didn't say the government should force anyone. I said that if a person has chosen not to get vaccinated then they should be left to the consequences of their choice. There is a significant difference between those things.
> 
> If you reject force of government then you are saying there should be no penalties for murder, child abuse, rape and a whole host of other activities. Force of government is exactly one of the consequences people who engage in such activities face. Hell, why have any sort of society. Let's just have rule by whichever individual or random group can exert the most force. Bring back slavery.
> 
> So which group of "we" assigned you to be spokesperson?


No, you are the ignorant one. We understand that there is forms of force that the government is entitled to bring to bear and that which they are not. We resist the latter. It is a little concept called "consent of the governed" far too many ignore that simple concept.
What is the "right thing" and do you get to tell us what that is? Do try to use your brain and don't just swallow what the government tells you.
And if you are against government force, what are you arguing about?


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The othering by some people is appalling.


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## TroyT (Jun 24, 2008)

Lisa in WA said:


> Redirect Notice


I wonder if he got that from his Nazi father.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> No, you are the ignorant one. We understand that there is forms of force that the government is entitled to bring to bear and that which they are not. We resist the latter. It is a little concept called "consent of the governed" far too many ignore that simple concept.
> What is the "right thing" and do you get to tell us what that is? Do try to use your brain and don't just swallow what the government tells you.
> And if you are against government force, what are you arguing about?


There you go with your ignorance again. As I said, this has already been decided by SCOTUS on multiple. "Consent of the governed" refers to the ballot box. It does not mean each person gets to decide for themselves. That is how the system works. Your other option is to engage in rebellion and insurrection. There are consequences for that. Perhaps you will be like many of those arrested after January 6th and plead you were misguided by others. I'm not sympathetic to that defense. Personally I think the folks who invaded the U.S. Capitol should have been shot on the spot.

And please, don't try to put words in my mouth. I did not say I'm against force. I wrote that I'm not in favor of government forcing everyone to be vaccinated. I have no problem with government forcing people to wear masks, limit occupancy in public places, restricting social gatherings, etc., as well as prohibiting the unvaccinated from engaging in various activities as necessary to deal with this pandemic.

You strike me as one of those blowhards who love to thump their chest and proclaim in online forums how tough you are and what you'll do to the government. Please share your picture here so when you rebel against the government - you ARE planning on doing that presumably - we'll know who you are after you are arrested. Have a great evening.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Talk about stupid and ignorant. If you all would do the right thing then force would not be a point of discussion. And note that I didn't say the government should force anyone. I said that if a person has chosen not to get vaccinated then they should be left to the consequences of their choice. There is a significant difference between those things.
> 
> If you reject force of government then you are saying there should be no penalties for murder, child abuse, rape and a whole host of other activities. Force of government is exactly one of the consequences people who engage in such activities face. Hell, why have any sort of society. Let's just have rule by whichever individual or random group can exert the most force. Bring back slavery.
> 
> So which group of "we" assigned you to be spokesperson?


“I said that if a person has chosen not to get vaccinated then they should be left to the consequences of their choice.”

That is all many are asking for. That does not mean they should give up any rights or access to services that the vaccinated expect to receive.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> There you go with your ignorance again. As I said, this has already been decided by SCOTUS on multiple. "Consent of the governed" refers to the ballot box. It does not mean each person gets to decide for themselves. That is how the system works. Your other option is to engage in rebellion and insurrection. There are consequences for that. Perhaps you will be like many of those arrested after January 6th and plead you were misguided by others. I'm not sympathetic to that defense. Personally I think the folks who invaded the U.S. Capitol should have been shot on the spot.
> 
> And please, don't try to put words in my mouth. I did not say I'm against force. I wrote that I'm not in favor of government forcing everyone to be vaccinated. I have no problem with government forcing people to wear masks, limit occupancy in public places, restricting social gatherings, etc., as well as prohibiting the unvaccinated from engaging in various activities as necessary to deal with this pandemic.
> 
> You strike me as one of those blowhards who love to thump their chest and proclaim in online forums how tough you are and what you'll do to the government. Please share your picture here so when you rebel against the government - you ARE planning on doing that presumably - we'll know who you are after you are arrested. Have a great evening.


“I have no problem with government forcing people to wear masks, limit occupancy in public places, restricting social gatherings, etc., as well as prohibiting the unvaccinated from engaging in various activities as necessary to deal with this pandemic.”


Why is any of this needed? 

Although the vaccines will not stop people from getting or spreading covid, they seem to do a very good job of protecting from serious illness. Vaccines are available, free, pretty easy to access. Those that are unable or unwilling to take the shots have a variety of options for protection if they wish. 

Why worry? Why such a attitude?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have no problem with government forcing people to wear masks, limit occupancy in public places, restricting social gatherings, etc., as well as prohibiting the unvaccinated from engaging in various activities as necessary to deal with this pandemic.


So, you are a Fascist?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> Would you have resisted blackouts during WW2?


That’s probably the best analogy I’ve seen applied yet. I’m not sure that it really correlates to an unproven vaccine against a disease that may not really be any worse than a bad flu-year, but that analogy does at least put it in a fresh perspective.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You strike me as one of those blowhards who love to thump their chest and proclaim in online forums how tough you are and what you'll do to the government.


I don't give a diddly squat how I strike you. All I have indicated that I will do to government is to ignore it. At this time that is all I plan to do.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Farmerga said:


> So, you are a Fascist?


 Rhetorical questions are my favorite kind.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Public health laws give them that right. Seat belts are another example.





Redlands Okie said:


> Seatbelts were mandated as part of the lobbying from the insurance companies to save money. Not because the government cares about the occupants.


Seat belt laws were not mandated because of public health. Many states resisted implementing seat belt laws. The states were coerced into passing the laws or get huge cuts in their federal tax kick-backs. And yes, it was all started by the insurance companies.

I sure hope those of you pro-vaxxers who wish death on those who are not vaccinated do not take any chances with your lives. Chances like climbing ladders, traveling anywhere in a vehicle, failing to get your shingles and tetanus vaccine, having a genetic predisposition to certain diseases, etc, etc, etc.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

OK

We have lined up perfectly.

Totalitarians on one side. Libertarians on the other.

Draw your weapons. Fire on three.

One. Two.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Funny, the vaccine manufacturers claimed they could tweak the vax if the virus mutated. But there is nothing in the news about them changing the formula. There is also conflicting information about efficacy regarding the Pfizer brand. The more time that passes, the less effective they seem to be.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> SHE is worth over $100 million.


Proof that crime pays.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> Proof that crime pays.


Pays well


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s probably the best analogy I’ve seen applied yet. I’m not sure that it really correlates to an unproven vaccine against a disease that may not really be any worse than a bad flu-year, but that analogy does at least put it in a fresh perspective.


I was thinking about the draft too. That is in response to a perceived national emergency that may or may not be proven to be necessary. Lot more people lost their lives in Vietnam than will suffer any problems because of a vaccine.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> I was thinking about the draft too. That is in response to a perceived national emergency that may or may not be proven to be necessary. Lot more people lost their lives in Vietnam than will suffer any problems because of a vaccine.


So, it doesn't work unless everyone takes it?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes, the vaccine works perfectly if everyone takes it. There will be no reason to test people if everyone is vaccinated. No tests, no cases.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> I was thinking about the draft too.


The draft is an obvious violation of the 13th amendment, but, too many have been conditioned to think that the government can violate the Constitution with impunity.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Danaus29 said:


> Yes, the vaccine works perfectly if everyone takes it. There will be no reason to test people if everyone is vaccinated. No tests, no cases.


Influenza may exist again?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Hiro said:


> Influenza may exist again?


Well, you know it wouldn't because everyone will have got their flu shot. After all, the CDC says you need it to protect against the flu. 
[sarcasm intended]


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> The draft is an obvious violation of the 13th amendment, but, too many have been conditioned to think that the government can violate the Constitution with impunity.


As far as I know, the only thing that has been argued about the draft is that it is males only registering with the Selective Service. Though I honestly don’t keep up with it. Have you learned otherwise? Has the SCOTUS ruled it unconstitutiona?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> As far as I know, the only thing that has been argued about the draft is that it is males only registering with the Selective Service. Though I honestly don’t keep up with it. Have you learned otherwise? Has the SCOTUS ruled it unconstitutiona?


Contrary to popular belief, the SCOTUS doesn't have the end all say about such things, The People do. It doesn't take a black robe to read the words" Neither Slavery or Involuntary Servitude, except as punishment for a crime whereof the party has been duly convicted, shall exist in the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction" and fully understand that the draft flies in the face of that amendment.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Key take away from that video - Our virus plan is a Machiavellian approach to analysis

My take away - I don't like getting played


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> Yes, the vaccine works perfectly if everyone takes it. There will be no reason to test people if everyone is vaccinated. No tests, no cases.


Is this sarcasm? Or, do you really believe that?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Contrary to popular belief, the SCOTUS doesn't have the end all say about such things, The People do. It doesn't take a black robe to read the words" Neither Slavery or Involuntary Servitude, except as punishment for a crime whereof the party has been duly convicted, shall exist in the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction" and fully understand that the draft flies in the face of that amendment.


This may be contrary to your belief and opinion and I’m not a Constitutional scholar by any means. But the SCOTUS is the final arbiter on interpretation of the Constitution and it has deemed that it passes Constitutional muster.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> This may be contrary to your belief and opinion and I’m not a Constitutional scholar by any means. But the SCOTUS is the final arbiter on interpretation of the Constitution and it has deemed that it passes Constitutional muster.


Agreed, the supremes do make grievous errors from time to time.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Then say that. Be honest. Everyone knows DC is corrupt. They come in with some money and go out with riches beyond belief. All of them. * And we vote them back in*. The system is broken. *The system will not fix itself.*


Damn right. Why? Because politics is down stream from culture!


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Lisa in WA said:


> This may be contrary to your belief and opinion and I’m not a Constitutional scholar by any means. But the SCOTUS is the final arbiter on interpretation of the Constitution and it has deemed that it passes Constitutional muster.


FarmerGA just wants what he wants. SCOTUS is the final arbiter with the following exceptions:

1) Where SCOTUS has rendered a decision, in some cases it may be overruled by an act of Congress ratified by POTUS (or passed by a 2/3rds majority overriding a POTUS veto); or

2) Where a constitutional amendment has been passed by a 2/3 majority in each house of Congress and ratified by 3/4 of the States; or 

3) Where a proposed constitutional amendment has been passed by a 2/3 majority of the states and ratified by 3/4 of the States; or

4) Where 2/3 of the States have called for a Constitutional Convention which amends the Constitution (none of the 27 Amendments to the Constitution are the result of this approach).

The number of people on this thread spouting nonsense is painful. They choose to ignore (or never learned) the actual documented processes so they can shout "MUH FREEDUM! No wonder this country is in trouble.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

It’s their right to scream it. And it seems that regardless of ones viewpoint this county is in serious trouble.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> It’s their right to scream it. And it seems that regardless of ones viewpoint this county is in serious trouble.


It's absolutely their right to scream it. May the blessings of COVID be upon them.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Wow

Best wishes to you also, sort of, maybe, not really.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Do you refuse to wear a seat belt and get a driver's license as well?


I refuse to wear a seat belt when i drive on the street in my trucks or cars. Motorcycles don't have them. If cops don't wear them, i don't need to either. I wear a helmet in states that require them because it's obvious if you don't wear one. I don't do vaccinations. Civil disobedience.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Public health laws give them that right. Seat belts are another example.


What public health laws would those be?
Do they violate the Constitution? The one's I've seen do!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Lisa in WA said:


> This may be contrary to your belief and opinion and I’m not a Constitutional scholar by any means. But the SCOTUS is the final arbiter on interpretation of the Constitution and it has deemed that it passes Constitutional muster.


That is true. However, they have been proven to have made poor decisions in the past which were in violation of the Constitution.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Mike in Ohio said:


> It's absolutely their right to scream it. May the blessings of COVID be upon them.


WOW!! Really.....smh
Another compassionate facist. 
Have the day you deserve.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> That is true. However, they have been proven to have made poor decisions in the past which were in violation of the Constitution.


thats true. But like the Bible, the Constitution is open to interpretation and different people interpret it in different ways.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> WOW!! Really.....smh
> Another compassionate facist.
> Have the day you deserve.


But Y'all say it's no worse than the flu... or that it's a hoax. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe it is a serious problem or you believe those other things. I have no compassion for these COVID deniers. They deserve their self inflicted fate. The problem is that they inflict damage on everyone else as they go to their fate. May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> But Y'all say it's no worse than the flu... or that it's a hoax. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe it is a serious problem or you believe those other things. I have no compassion for these COVID deniers. They deserve their self inflicted fate. The problem is that they inflict damage on everyone else as they go to their fate. May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


I’m curious as to who they ”inflict damage” upon. Surely not the vaccinated, mask wearing folks that keep their distance?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

There are some I would like to see social distancing and mask wearing continue even after covid has run it's course.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m curious as to who they ”inflict damage” upon. Surely not the vaccinated, mask wearing folks that keep their distance?


A friend of mine was taken to the ER a few days ago. He had to sit there in pain for 11 hours before anyone could see him because the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients, the overwhelming majority of which are unvaccinated. After he was seen he was immediately admitted and later that day had emergency surgery.

May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> A friend of mine was taken to the ER a few days ago. He had to sit there in pain for 11 hours before anyone could see him because the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients, the overwhelming majority of which are unvaccinated. After he was seen he was immediately admitted and later that day had emergency surgery.
> 
> May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


I’ve experienced the same, long before COVID.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

COVID-19: How to manage your mental health during the pandemic


Anxiety about COVID-19 can be overwhelming. You may worry about getting the virus, the length of the pandemic and the future. Learn how to cope.




www.mayoclinic.org





During the COVID-19 pandemic, you may experience stress, anxiety, fear, sadness and loneliness. And mental health disorders, including anxiety and depression, can worsen.

Surveys show a major increase in the number of U.S. adults who report symptoms of stress, anxiety and depression during the pandemic, compared with surveys before the pandemic. Some people have increased their use of alcohol or drugs, thinking that can help them cope with their fears about the pandemic. In reality, using these substances can worsen anxiety and depression.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have no problem with you dying like a medieval peasant. Go forth and COVID. If you reject the mRNA vaccines which have already been shown to be incredibly safe then I expect you to refuse to go to a hospital for care when you come down with COVID. I applaud your willingness to die or have those close to you for your beliefs.


The survivors can build monuments to the brave patriots who died to prove that their right to express themselves(or whatever it is they're trying to prove) is more important than life itself, and if a few old women, sick children and so on die because of said freedom, oh, well. Monuments in every town. Or maybe just one in every state. Or, just one somewhere out west, for the whole country . Or, maybe not...
Regardless, don't let them talk you into saving yourselves, patriots!! Resist! And all that!


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Clem said:


> The survivors can build monuments to the brave patriots who died to prove that their right to express themselves(or whatever it is they're trying to prove) is more important than life itself, and if a few old women, sick children and so on die because of said freedom, oh, well. Monuments in every town. Or maybe just one in every state. Or, just one somewhere out west, for the whole country . Or, maybe not...
> Regardless, don't let them talk you into saving yourselves, patriots!! Resist! And all that!


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> FarmerGA just wants what he wants. SCOTUS is the final arbiter with the following exceptions:
> 
> 1) Where SCOTUS has rendered a decision, in some cases it may be overruled by an act of Congress ratified by POTUS (or passed by a 2/3rds majority overriding a POTUS veto); or
> 
> ...


The People are the final arbiters in all things dealing with government. Just because you don't understand this truth, doesn't make it "nonsense" The government functions at the will of The People.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Mike in Ohio said:


> But Y'all say it's no worse than the flu... or that it's a hoax. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe it is a serious problem or you believe those other things. I have no compassion for these COVID deniers. They deserve their self inflicted fate. The problem is that they inflict damage on everyone else as they go to their fate. May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


When did i say it was no worse than the flu? I also understand now that the pcr tests were also showing positive for both the flu and covid. That's why the cdc stopped using that test. Think there's a chance that the flu, which literally disappeared last year, could have been counted as covid? Be honest. 
Can YOU infect others even though your vaccinated? If the answer is yes, your to blame for spreading this virus. Stay home. If you don't, you should be held liable for any and all costs associated with your spreading of this virus.
See how that works. 
Ever heard of "natural immunity"? You do know that more than 300,000,000( 3 hundred million) people in the USA, have never tested positive for covid?
Thank you for proving that you truly are an intolerant facist. Glad your happy about your ability to infect others and ruin their lives. 
Have the day you truly deserve.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Clem said:


> The survivors can build monuments to the brave patriots who died to prove that their right to express themselves(or whatever it is they're trying to prove) is more important than life itself, and if a few old women, sick children and so on die because of said freedom, oh, well. Monuments in every town. Or maybe just one in every state. Or, just one somewhere out west, for the whole country . Or, maybe not...
> Regardless, don't let them talk you into saving yourselves, patriots!! Resist! And all that!


And if you want to hide in fear from a virus, that is little more than a bad flu, for the rest of your miserable life, have at it. Just don't look for me in your bunker.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I would tell a very funny joke about COVID, but, only a few will get it.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Why would I hide? I live here, and ain't done anything wrong.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> And if you want to hide in fear from a virus, that is little more than a bad flu, for the rest of your miserable life, have at it. Just don't look for me in your bunker.


A bad flu is something to hide from. 
Im sure you are aware of how bad the Spanish flu was.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> A bad flu is something to hide from.
> Im sure you are aware of how bad the Spanish flu was.


And like the Spanish flu we will eventually get thru it, bury the dead and get on with life. Hopefully we will not lose our freedom as well as our minds.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> This may be contrary to your belief and opinion and I’m not a Constitutional scholar by any means. But the SCOTUS is the final arbiter on interpretation of the Constitution and it has deemed that it passes Constitutional muster.


So, if the Black Robe Brigade said tomorrow that it is Constitutional that Congress can set up a Church of the United States and compel each and every citizen to attend services at least twice a week, you would be content to sit on the Amen Pew? Personally I would resist such mandates.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> A bad flu is something to hide from.
> Im sure you are aware of how bad the Spanish flu was.


Well, this one isn't that bad. Even though, if I deem it something to be afraid of, I will hide from it. No need for government force.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Farmerga said:


> So, if the Black Robe Brigade said tomorrow that it is Constitutional that Congress can set up a Church of the United States and compel each and every citizen to attend services at least twice a week, you would be content to sit on the Amen Pew? Personally I would resist such mandates.


Don’t even jest about that,,,, they’ve done worse!


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Evons hubby said:


> Don’t even jest about that,,,, they’ve done worse!


Yes they have.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> When did i say it was no worse than the flu? I also understand now that the pcr tests were also showing positive for both the flu and covid. That's why the cdc stopped using that test. Think there's a chance that the flu, which literally disappeared last year, could have been counted as covid? Be honest.
> Can YOU infect others even though your vaccinated? If the answer is yes, your to blame for spreading this virus. Stay home. If you don't, you should be held liable for any and all costs associated with your spreading of this virus.
> See how that works.
> Ever heard of "natural immunity"? You do know that more than 300,000,000( 3 hundred million) people in the USA, have never tested positive for covid?
> ...


May the blessings of COVID be upon you.

Unfortunately, in your ignorance you failed to properly research why the original PCR tests are being withdrawn. It is not that the PCR test showed positive for both flu and Coronavirus. It is that the PCR test could ONLY identify Coronavirus fragments. The replacement tests are designed to test for flu and Coronavirus AT THE SAME TIME, thus being more efficient than doing 2 separate tests.

As far as 300 million people not having been infected yet, firstly, testing in the U.S. is a disaster. We have provided tests to a smaller percentage of people than many other developed countries. In addition, as vaccines became available the emphasis switched from testing to getting shots in arms.

Secondly, the fact that 300 million people (I'm using your number for convenience) in the U.S. have never (yet) tested positive is also due to the fact that the epidemic in the U.S. is still running it's course. Stay tuned.

May the blessings of COVID be upon you. Why are you so upset if you believe it isn't that big of a problem? I guess you are one of those people suffering from cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> So, if the Black Robe Brigade said tomorrow that it is Constitutional that Congress can set up a Church of the United States and compel each and every citizen to attend services at least twice a week, you would be content to sit on the Amen Pew? Personally I would resist such mandates.


Has that happened? 
has the SCOTUS ruled on the draft With reasons that it is constitutional?
Did you sign up with the Selective Service?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Well, this one isn't that bad. Even though, if I deem it something to be afraid of, I will hide from it. No need for government force.


It could become that bad. 
Or next year we could have a very, very bad flu.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> Don’t even jest about that,,,, they’ve done worse!


You have health problems that you’ve posted about, as does your wife.
Have you both been vaccinated with the Covid vaccine?


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Mike in Ohio said:


> May the blessings of COVID be upon you.
> 
> Unfortunately, in your ignorance you failed to properly research why the original PCR tests are being withdrawn. It is not that the PCR test showed positive for both flu and Coronavirus. It is that the PCR test could ONLY identify Coronavirus fragments. The replacement tests are designed to test for flu and Coronavirus AT THE SAME TIME, thus being more efficient than doing 2 separate tests.
> 
> ...


Not upset at all. I don't care one way or another if you get vaccinated. Just pointing out that those that scream the loudest about those who make decisions for their own health, should be held responsible for their own actions, and since the number of folks who did get vaccinated are starting to flood hospitals world wide, the vaccinated are the spreaders and should be held responsible financially. You won't see it that way because your ego won't allow you to be wrong.
Do you have a link to the cdc that confirms your position on the pcr tests.
You also failed to point out where i said covid was like the flu. Guess you missed that question!
Hope you don't get infected, because you can still get it.
I would never wish for anyone to be infected by anything....yet here you are, wishing me death by covid.
Intolerant facisim at its finest.
Have the day you deserve...


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Not upset at all. I don't care one way or another if you get vaccinated. Just pointing out that those that scream the loudest about those who make decisions for their own health, should be held responsible for their own actions, and since the number of folks who did get vaccinated are starting to flood hospitals world wide, the vaccinated are the spreaders and should be held responsible financially. You won't see it that way because your ego won't allow you to be wrong.
> Do you have a link to the cdc that confirms your position on the pcr tests.
> You also failed to point out where i said covid was like the flu. Guess you missed that question!
> Hope you don't get infected, because you can still get it.
> ...


i very much hope neither you or your family get sick. 
You’re a very nice guy and we just disagree.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Has that happened?
> has the SCOTUS ruled on the draft With reasons that it is constitutional?
> Did you sign up with the Selective Service?


Yes it’s happened! Numerous times! The draft is but one instance. Public education another, welfare, social securiity, Obama care, are all forbidden by the constitution, yet the supremes found ways to justify them.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> You have health problems that you’ve posted about, as does your wife.
> Have you both been vaccinated with the Covid vaccine?


No being the short answer.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> Yes it’s happened! Numerous times! The draft is but one instance. Public education another, welfare, social securiity, Obama care, are all forbidden by the constitution, yet the supremes found ways to justify them.


Though it could be that you think you know more about it than you actually do.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Though it could be that you think you know more about it than you actually do.


I can read simple English, and each of those fly directly against the simple language used in our constitution.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> I can read simple English, and each of those fly directly against the simple language used in our constitution.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Lines have been drawn, people are on both sides, hardly anyone left in the middle.
It's not a matter of hoping covid on someone. Everybody has made their decision based on their own criteria. Clearly nobody will change their minds. Some who claim to be against vax have already been vaxxed, and are just posturing, so everybody knows which side they're on.

However most Americans have, by now, been vaccinated, or have refused. The storm is coming, some people refuse to go inside, some people look around and don't see a storm, others think it's a test by God. Nothing much can be done except wait and see.
My own opinion is everybody has made their choice, and with radically different criteria. And when one side or the other starts dying, or either starts turning into lizard people(depending on which side of the vaccine discussion is right) there the truth will be.

And, some will get sick, some won't. Some will die, others will pretend it didn't even happen.

OR, some will wake up with lizard appendages, bleeting like sheep, and having wet dreams about a 91 year old Hungarian born immigrant.and Bill Gates following us to the grocery store and such. One sounds plausible to me, the other not so much so. No doubt, there are people who are equally convinced otherwise.
I'd mostly like it to be over, but that won't matter either. We're still divided into 2 Americas. 2 realities. Hopelessly broken.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> Not upset at all. I don't care one way or another if you get vaccinated. Just pointing out that those that scream the loudest about those who make decisions for their own health, should be held responsible for their own actions, and since the number of folks who did get vaccinated are starting to flood hospitals world wide, the vaccinated are the spreaders and should be held responsible financially. You won't see it that way because your ego won't allow you to be wrong.
> Do you have a link to the cdc that confirms your position on the pcr tests.
> You also failed to point out where i said covid was like the flu. Guess you missed that question!
> Hope you don't get infected, because you can still get it.
> ...


Why do you hate doing your own research? Just one example of info on why the original PCR test is being retired - The CDC Is Withdrawing Its Original PCR Test for COVID—Here's Why That's a Good Thing. Last time I'm helping you with your homework. You also don't understand how "debates" work. The obligation to prove an assertion is on the person making the assertion. You asserted that the PCR test confuses Coronavirus and flu when it shows a positive and that is the reason it is being retired.

As far you asserting I said you said that COVID is like the flu, you need to read more carefully. I made a general statement about anti-vaxxers and hoax theorists.

I signed up to get vaccinated the first day I was eligible. Yes, I can become infected and spread Coronavirus but statistics indicate I am unlikely to become seriously ill and while vaccinated people can spread Coronavirus, studies show that the viral load in their nostrils and respiratory system drops much quicker than for the unvaccinated thus reducing R0 for the vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated.

I don't wish anyone to become ill from Coronavirus but in giving the blessing that I do, I recognize that the unvaccinated are much more likely to become seriously ill, occupy a hospital bed and possibly die. Anyone who chooses not to be vaccinated for a reason other than being seriously immuno comprimised and acting under a doctors orders is choosing their potential fate.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote, "A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means."

May the blessing of COVID be upon you.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> A friend of mine was taken to the ER a few days ago. He had to sit there in pain for 11 hours before anyone could see him because the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients, the overwhelming majority of which are unvaccinated. After he was seen he was immediately admitted and later that day had emergency surgery.
> 
> May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


Bad deal for your friend. Keep in mind the medical profession has had at least a year and a half to get up to speed. Many if not most have not it seems. It seems to be about the money from what I read. Wishing anyone who is sick a even worse time because you think its their fault is silly. 

P.S. your “blessing of covid “ blending over onto your on friends ? Something to thing about.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> May the blessings of COVID be upon you.
> 
> Unfortunately, in your ignorance you failed to properly research why the original PCR tests are being withdrawn. It is not that the PCR test showed positive for both flu and Coronavirus. It is that the PCR test could ONLY identify Coronavirus fragments. The replacement tests are designed to test for flu and Coronavirus AT THE SAME TIME, thus being more efficient than doing 2 separate tests.
> 
> ...




“The replacement tests are designed to test for flu and Coronavirus AT THE SAME TIME, thus being more efficient than doing 2 separate tests.”

That has to be one of the most silly scary things I have read recently. How could anyone actually think this is beyond me. Do you really believe they were trying to be efficient? Locking down states, business’s put out of business, the counties economy wrecked, in the name of efficiency? Or was that the purpose of being efficient?

Tying up medical resources so actually resulting in more problems and lives lost. No much logic in it at all.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Why do you hate doing your own research? Just one example of info on why the original PCR test is being retired - The CDC Is Withdrawing Its Original PCR Test for COVID—Here's Why That's a Good Thing. Last time I'm helping you with your homework. You also don't understand how "debates" work. The obligation to prove an assertion is on the person making the assertion. You asserted that the PCR test confuses Coronavirus and flu when it shows a positive and that is the reason it is being retired.
> 
> As far you asserting I said you said that COVID is like the flu, you need to read more carefully. I made a general statement about anti-vaxxers and hoax theorists.
> 
> ...




“You asserted that the PCR test confuses Coronavirus and flu when it shows a positive and that is the reason it is being retired.”


He is correct, “CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses. “

Notice the word DIFFERENTIATION


“Such assays can facilitate continued testing for both influenza and SARS-CoV-2 and can save both time and resources”

No need to worry about wasting covid protocols on flue victims. 


I have no problem with helping you with your homework, it seems to be needed. 






__





CDC's Laboratory Outreach Communication System (LOCS) | CDC







www.cdc.gov


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> Bad deal for your friend. Keep in mind the medical profession has had at least a year and a half to get up to speed. Many if not most have not it seems. It seems to be about the money from what I read. Wishing anyone who is sick a even worse time because you think its their fault is silly.
> 
> P.S. your “blessing of covid “ blending over onto your on friends ? Something to thing about.


The medical profession DID prepare. That's why we have vaccines. That's why they are pushing masks and social distancing. A lot of medical professionals came out of retirement when the first waves hit. Now many have stepped back because they see all these folks refusing vaccinations and then showing up at the hospital demanding care. Many of these medical professionals wonder why they should put themselves and their families at risk to care for people who refuse to care for themselves. Here are some numbers from Ohio for your consideration (although I'm confident they will have zero impact on your thinking):


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> Has that happened?
> has the SCOTUS ruled on the draft With reasons that it is constitutional?
> Did you sign up with the Selective Service?


No, but, theoretically, it could. Would you accept it if it did?
Yes, but they also made a ruling in the Dred Scott that should have been resisted (and was).
Yes, but, unfortunately I was a young dumb kid at the time.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> No, but, theoretically, it could. Would you accept it if it did?
> Yes, but they also made a ruling in the Dred Scott that should have been resisted (and was).
> Yes, but, unfortunately I was a young dumb kid at the time.


You were a young dumb kid in 1857 when Dred Scott v Sandford was decided?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You were a young dumb kid in 1857 when Dred Scott v Sandford was decided?


If you are incapable of understanding the conversation, please do stay out of it.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> If you are incapable of understanding the conversation, please do stay out of it.


You sure do trigger easily. One might mistake you for a snowflake.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You sure do trigger easily. One might mistake you for a snowflake.


Only those who project their own shortcomings on to others.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> The medical profession DID prepare. That's why we have vaccines. That's why they are pushing masks and social distancing. A lot of medical professionals came out of retirement when the first waves hit. Now many have stepped back because they see all these folks refusing vaccinations and then showing up at the hospital demanding care. Many of these medical professionals wonder why they should put themselves and their families at risk to care for people who refuse to care for themselves. Here are some numbers from Ohio for your consideration (although I'm confident they will have zero impact on your thinking):
> 
> View attachment 99065


Nice switch, your earlier comment was lack of space in ICU and hospitals. Medical staff have had plenty of chances and for a variety of reasons have not followed through. A local example that I know of from the hospital employees, a entire unused section prepped for use such as covid. Closed. Waiting on government protocols to open the wing, the hospital has not opened the wing due to funding not available until the protocols are enacted. Not enough loss so far it seems for the government to enact the protocols. Patients that could be treated are not able to access the extra unused beds. 

The medical professionals have a choice, work or not is up to them. Well unless they have refused the vaccines, then it seems many are now being given a choice, take the vaccine or be fired. Since its their choice, and PROPER mask use has been shown to work and are in plentiful supply for medical use, its silly. (By the way, n-95 mask not the silly surgical face covering many are seen to be wearing in public)

Those that have taken the vaccine are very unlikely to have an adverse reaction to covid. As shown in your post. Thanks for providing it and saving me have it to link similar information. 

Even though the vaccines appear at this time to be a really good idea its not my business what others do. I take care of me, let others do the same for themselves.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


>


I’m thinking the thirteenth amendment forbids the draft, the tenth forbids the others. Feel free to read them at your leisure.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Only those who project their own shortcomings on to others.


That's it. My short comings... and goings.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> That's it. My short comings... and goings.


Keep trying!! I am sure you can improve yourself.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> Nice switch, your earlier comment was lack of space in ICU and hospitals. Medical staff have had plenty of chances and for a variety of reasons have not followed through. A local example that I know of from the hospital employees, a entire unused section prepped for use such as covid. Closed. Waiting on government protocols to open the wing, the hospital has not opened the wing due to funding not available until the protocols are enacted. Not enough loss so far it seems for the government to enact the protocols. Patients that could be treated are not able to access the extra unused beds.
> 
> The medical professionals have a choice, work or not is up to them. Well unless they have refused the vaccines, then it seems many are now being given a choice, take the vaccine or be fired. Since its their choice, and PROPER mask use has been shown to work and are in plentiful supply for medical use, its silly. (By the way, n-95 mask not the silly surgical face covering many are seen to be wearing in public)
> 
> ...


Space in hospitals is not simply about a bed. It is also determined by staffing. A bed without staff is not an ICU. ICUs are typically staffed with one nurse for every two patients. Multiply that by the number of shifts across a week and that is quite a few nurses required to staff even a small ICU. You can't take any old nurse and throw them into an ICU. It doesn't work that way. There is a lot of specialized equipment that requires specific training and experience.

Hospitals are not going to admit patients if they don't have the staff to take care of them. Why do you think Texas is asking for over 6,000 traveling nurses to assist in local hospitals? They are maxed out. And why are they maxed out? Because of all the idiots refusing to get vaccinated, coming down with Coronavirus and then showing up at a hospital demanding to be taken care of. And who is going to pay for it? Most of these people can't afford to pay those types of bills even if they do have insurance (co-pays, deductibles, etc.) So much for all that "Muh Freedum!" and "I'm an independent person" yammering. If it weren't so sad it would be amusing. I have no sympathy for people who knowingly bring these sorts of things upon themselves although I'm sympathetic to the young who get dragged along.

Good evening to you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Space in hospitals is not simply about a bed. It is also determined by staffing. A bed without staff is not an ICU. ICUs are typically staffed with one nurse for every two patients. Multiply that by the number of shifts across a week and that is quite a few nurses required to staff even a small ICU. You can't take any old nurse and throw them into an ICU. It doesn't work that way. There is a lot of specialized equipment that requires specific training and experience.
> 
> Hospitals are not going to admit patients if they don't have the staff to take care of them. Why do you think Texas is asking for over 6,000 traveling nurses to assist in local hospitals? They are maxed out. And why are they maxed out? Because of all the idiots refusing to get vaccinated, coming down with Coronavirus and then showing up at a hospital demanding to be taken care of. And who is going to pay for it? Most of these people can't afford to pay those types of bills even if they do have insurance (co-pays, deductibles, etc.) So much for all that "Muh Freedum!" and "I'm an independent person" yammering. If it weren't so sad it would be amusing. I have no sympathy for people who knowingly bring these sorts of things upon themselves although I'm sympathetic to the young who get dragged along.
> 
> Good evening to you.


Our freedom heads the list when talking about priorities. At least to a great many who’ve given their lives to win it, defend it, and protect it.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Keep trying!! I am sure you can improve yourself.


I could never aspire to being a perfect specimen of a human being such as yourself.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Evons hubby said:


> Our freedom heads the list when talking about priorities. At least to a great many who’ve given their lives to win it, defend it, and protect it.


Then feel free not to get vaccinated and feel free not to go to a hospital if and when you fall seriously ill with COVID.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

What makes you think I don’t have the same right as anyone to seek medical care when needed?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I could never aspire to being a perfect specimen of a human being such as yourself.


It isn't the destination, it is the journey.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Evons hubby said:


> What makes you think I don’t have the same right as anyone to seek medical care when needed?


You may have a legal right but it is certainly unethical to refuse to get a vaccination which would prevent serious illness and then demand medical treatment for that preventable serious illness at a medical facility overwhelmed by people who refuse to get vaccinated. But you go ahead and insist on your rights. That seems to be a pretty common demand here. Not much talk of obligations but lots of talk about rights.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> A friend of mine was taken to the ER a few days ago. He had to sit there in pain for 11 hours before anyone could see him because the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients, the overwhelming majority of which are unvaccinated. After he was seen he was immediately admitted and later that day had emergency surgery.
> 
> May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


Some hospitals are like that, they were like that long before covud was ever on the scene. OSU emergency is one of the worst that I have ever been to.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You may have a legal right but it is certainly unethical to refuse to get a vaccination which would prevent serious illness and then demand medical treatment for that preventable serious illness at a medical facility overwhelmed by people who refuse to get vaccinated. But you go ahead and insist on your rights. That seems to be a pretty common demand here. Not much talk of obligations but lots of talk about rights.


Well, since the hospitals in my area are not, nor have not been ”overwhelmed” by COVID patients I think I’ll go ahead and seek whatever care I need when I need it. What makes you think I’ve refused to get the vaccine? It’s not as simple for some of us as you might think. How about you take care of your ethics and let me take care of mine?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Vjk said:


> Is this sarcasm? Or, do you really believe that?


50/50
I know the testing protocols for my state. I know vaccinated people exposed to covid are not (or were not, the CDC has changed their stance) required to get tested or quarantine. I know vaccinated people are not subjected to routine tests like unvaccinated people are. I know if you don't test for covid, you don't have people infected with covid.

But it was also partly sarcasm.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Space in hospitals is not simply about a bed. It is also determined by staffing. A bed without staff is not an ICU. ICUs are typically staffed with one nurse for every two patients. Multiply that by the number of shifts across a week and that is quite a few nurses required to staff even a small ICU. You can't take any old nurse and throw them into an ICU. It doesn't work that way. There is a lot of specialized equipment that requires specific training and experience.
> 
> Hospitals are not going to admit patients if they don't have the staff to take care of them. Why do you think Texas is asking for over 6,000 traveling nurses to assist in local hospitals? They are maxed out. And why are they maxed out? Because of all the idiots refusing to get vaccinated, coming down with Coronavirus and then showing up at a hospital demanding to be taken care of. And who is going to pay for it? Most of these people can't afford to pay those types of bills even if they do have insurance (co-pays, deductibles, etc.) So much for all that "Muh Freedum!" and "I'm an independent person" yammering. If it weren't so sad it would be amusing. I have no sympathy for people who knowingly bring these sorts of things upon themselves although I'm sympathetic to the young who get dragged along.
> 
> Good evening to you.


They are importing 6000 traveling nurses (who cost a lot more) because the for profit hospitals have been shutting down for years and laying off people due to profit margins. 



It’s a nation wide problem but since you listed Texas. Many hospitals have been closing in Texas because the state has decided to not opt in for expanding Medicare programs. Thanks to Obama’s care program, federal and Texas politics. The large number of uninsured patients are also a factor. Many of the uninsured are USA citizens, guess who the majority of them are……yep, laws not being enforced and illegals overloading the system. Rural areas with low population density have been especially hard hit for the same reasons. Many large city hospitals have been closed in the last few years also. 

And then another problem, right up your line of concern,

“Vaccine hesitancy has been high among frontline health care workers: Surveys showed that nearly half remained unvaccinated as of mid-March, despite being among the first to become eligible for the shots in December. A March 2021 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that health care workers had concerns about the vaccines’ newness and their possible side effects, both of which are common reasons for waiting to be vaccinated.”

So 150 nurses in just one Houston hospital have been terminated due to lack of vaccine shot. Guess the mask program is not what we have been told it was ?









Covid-19 News: Over 150 Texas Hospital Workers Are Fired or Resign Over Vaccine Mandate


The virus is surging across Africa, where less than 1 percent are vaccinated. The White House publicly acknowledged the U.S. will likely miss President Biden’s July 4 vaccination goal.




www.nytimes.com






Since the health system is privately provided for in this country the hospitals ownership are not in the business because they care, its a business investment and treated as such.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

With all the insults and name calling, I have no interest in cleaning this one up again. Please review GC rules.


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