# Need multi-purpose guns



## steadfree (Mar 10, 2010)

Been thinking about possible scenairos of what if our economy collapses or a natural disaster like Japan. How will I protect my family and prepped items from roving bands of thieves. I would like this first gun to have the capabilities to protect and hunt small game. I would also like to know what are the most common ammunitions(if we have to scavenge). I was thinking about a lever-action .22lr with additional .22 handgun....or should I get a larger caliber for knock down power. But if the hoardes come my way I would like to get rounds down range fast. I am going to start increasing my preps and my wife agreed. So I would like to protect my assets. Thanks for info!!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I would like this first gun to have the capabilities *to protect and hunt small game*.


A 12 Ga pump shotgun would fit *those* requirements best.

A 22 isn't an ideal defense weapon, even though it's better than nothing.


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

A 22 is not ideal for defense, but as stated is better then nothing and can also be used to take down game for dinner. DH & I were just talking about this and he said in an immediate bug out, that's the gun he wants me to grab, with a brick of ammo.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Being able to hit what your shooting at is way more important than the caliber of the weapon.

Bigger is only better if you hit the target.

Whatever you get, practice allot.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

have to agree with BFF (and ya dont know how much that hurts )
a shot gun is about the best of both its major disadvantage is range 
major advantage is simple to reload 
in a TSHTF the primers can be revitalized with chlorates or fulmanates and the shells loaded with with BP a pump is far less picky than an auto


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

I am new to this site, but I do have what I hope is a helpful opinion.

The .22 long rifle round is a very versatile round. It is inexpensive to shoot, a 525 round brick can be bought for around $18, hence lots of practice time. The truth is the .22 round has been used as a man killer by many different agencies, both legal and illegal, for decades. Shot placement, or multiple hits in rapid succession, are the key to success if the .22 is used for self defense.

Once you become proficient with the .22 then move up to larger calibers.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

A .22LR would be my choice if all I had was one gun. Ammunition is cheap, very easy to carry A LOT of it. (try carrying 1000 shotgun shells in a pocket). A .22 can knock down a moose if you hit it properly at short range. Deer are easy targets if close enough. A couple of .22 rounds into a human intruder will have a strong affect if within reasonable range, and in a vital region. I shot a coyote at 220 yards this fall with my .22 with open sights! Boom. THWACK! He fell like a sack of hammers.

A shotgun has a lot of merit for close in operations. You can get buckshot or slugs for larger game, personal defense, and small shot for game birds, squirrels etc. But the effective range is much more limited, unless using slugs. I would have more confidence with a .22 semi-auto with a 50 shot clip if a horde of madmen were approaching at 300 yards, than a pump shotgun with 7 or 8 in the tube. 

Reloading the shotgun with more rounds would take time. A couple of magazines full of .22 shells, would alleviate this type of pressure. 

Each gun has its merits for certain circumstances, but for my money, a .22 with a large clip or three would be my best friend. You just have to know how to hunt to within 20 yards of game, and it is lights out with a shot behind the ear on large game.


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## SurvivalBus (Sep 18, 2010)

wow no one said it yet??

The .22 Mag is the best survival firearm, you can kill squirrels, deer and men. and its sound does not carry far. and also can be silenced easy. 

This is why its popular with poachers


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm on board with the 22lr. Cheap, anyone can shoot. I mean in a bad spot my 6 YO daughter could place a decent shot. That does count for something.
If you are looking to scavenge ammo AFTER a SHTF thing, I think 5.56 would be the way to go. It's a US military (and NATO) round, fired from the M16. I think there's quite a bit of that floating around. 
Also, a rifle chambered in 5.56 will fire a .223 round without issue, though not necessarily the other way around.

Lastly, if you're looking to arm several people on the cheap, I'd suggest a Mosin. Under $100 and fires a round similar to a 30-06.

Theres my 2 cents worth. Your mileage will vary.


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## wishbone (Mar 5, 2011)

""*A 12 Ga pump shotgun would fit those requirements best.

A 22 isn't an ideal defense weapon, even though it's better than nothing.*""
those two, no doubt about it, maybe a cheap hand loader with 12ga dies, some primers,powder,loose 00 buckshot and casings also.


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

As noted the .22 is versatile and cheap, and with practice, quite lethal.
You can also use .30 cal in both M-1s and pistols, but they are harder to find.
For knockdown power, I prefer a .45 ACP.
Coincidentally, it will just fit in a .410 shotgun, thus giving you a pistol and a shotgun round.
Best learn to reload yourself.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

For defending a fixed position, many weapons will work and for hunting many weapons will work.....each tool serves a different purpose, so in order to be prepared to do different work, you need different tools....ammo weight is of little concern in this scenario.


For bugging out, I am working on a pack right now, I have come to think a .22 is about as good as you can get....


The short barreled 12 guage is nice......but carryin ammo is a different story, not that it is heavy...it is very very bulky.

The sks is nice, but very heavy and anything over about 250 rounds you are leaving much needed things behind if you are bugging out.

Another option for bugging out is a nice light semi auto 9mm rifle and pistol........357 would be better, but I have not seen a semi auto 357 rifle.


The all around best bug out combo has to be a .22 rifle, pistol combo...due to weight and the amount of ammo you can carry.You can do alot of things with a .22


If you are concerned with homestead defence, don`t count out the .22 ..........you just need the right one/tool!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrlhOWVa2mc&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS31Gm9tIig&feature=related[/ame]

:viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking:


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Energy Rebel said:


> As noted the .22 is versatile and cheap, and with practice, quite lethal.
> You can also use .30 cal in both M-1s and pistols, but they are harder to find.
> For knockdown power, I prefer a .45 ACP.
> Coincidentally, it will just fit in a .410 shotgun, thus giving you a pistol and a shotgun round.
> Best learn to reload yourself.


The 410 shell fits perfectly in a 45-70 single shot break barrel rifle.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I am new to this site, but I do have what I hope is a helpful opinion.
> 
> The .22 long rifle round is a very versatile round. It is inexpensive to shoot, a 525 round brick can be bought for around $18, hence lots of practice time. The truth is the .22 round has been used as a man killer by many different agencies, both legal and illegal, for decades. Shot placement, or multiple hits in rapid succession, are the key to success if the .22 is used for self defense.
> 
> Once you become proficient with the .22 then move up to larger calibers.


A little mercury in the tip of that .22 round will insure the grasshoppers do not come round here no more...even ifin ya gets one in the leg, he will not be back next month to loot again.

That is very illegal and is provided as information only and I do not recomend you do that under any circumstances and this is also a fictional story.........that should cover it.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Yeah the .22 lacks the knock down power but is probably the most versatile and common ammo. It can be a very effective defensive weapon against the 'roving bands of thieves' that the OP mentioned.

I'm not too keen on the 12 gauge (in this application) for a few reasons. #1. hunting small game with a 12 gauge I end up with a demolished critter ( thats why I use the 20 gauge ). And for defense of a large homestead, the shotgun doesn't have the range.

For HOME defense, where your range is much shorter, the shotgun is king.....but if your talking about shooting a thief whose making off with your chickens because your family might starve without them,...you'll want a better range and semi-auto capability is also a big plus.


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

Imho .22lr is best choice given the parameters.
You do not expect to use the same type tool to eat dinner and knit a pair of socks. Knitting needles and chopsticks may look alike to those not around them much. Yes, in a pinch, you could cobble together a pair of socks using chopsticks. If I am out hunting squirrel and need a self defence weapon, you use what you have and hope for the best.
We do not arm soldiers or police with .22lr. If you feel the need for a SD firearm, get one.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I thought about this a bit before I answered.
If I was to limit myself to one firearm as a do all, I think I'd pick a .223.
Good for defense, good for hunting, short range, long range, close quarters or wide open spaces, the .223 will work well.
There are a lot of light weight .223 rifles out there, they are simple to operate, easy to maintain, accurate and low recoil. You can also buy target rounds fairly cheap but not as cheap as a .22.
If I had to depend on one weapon only, a .223 with a 30 round mag would fit any need I can think of at the moment.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> For knockdown power, I prefer a .45 ACP.
> Coincidentally, *it will just fit in a .410 shotgun*, thus giving you a pistol and a shotgun round.


That's a VERY dangerous thing to do given the fact that shotgun shells are loaded to MUCH lower pressures.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's a VERY dangerous thing to do given the fact that shotgun shells are loaded to MUCH lower pressures.


Yeah. Some of the older .410's MIGHT be able to handle it, but the newer ones are likely to blow up in your face.

The best general purpose guns are going to be shotguns. They have been a feature on homesteads since their invention. Yes, their ammunition is bulky and you can't reload it, but you will rarely fire more than 1-2 shots while hunting and it would be strange to fire more than 3 in a defensive situation. You are defending yourself from an intruder or attacker, not manning the barricades at Rorke's Drift.

For an adult, I prefer the 12 gauge. I am somewhat unusual in that I have a 12 gauge for hunting and predator defense and TWO specifically designed for repelling intruders. I have a Mossberg Persuader in one end of the house and an old Stoeger coach gun in the other. I just like guns.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

Cornhusker said:


> I thought about this a bit before I answered.
> If I was to limit myself to one firearm as a do all, I think I'd pick a .223.
> Good for defense, good for hunting, short range, long range, close quarters or wide open spaces, the .223 will work well.
> There are a lot of light weight .223 rifles out there, they are simple to operate, easy to maintain, accurate and low recoil. You can also buy target rounds fairly cheap but not as cheap as a .22.
> If I had to depend on one weapon only, a .223 with a 30 round mag would fit any need I can think of at the moment.



I guess it depends on what you definition of long range is. Afghanistan has proven that the range of the M4 firing 5.56mm rounds is inadequate in many situations and that is why the trusty old M14 is being brought back out of storage, updated, and being issued to many squads as a dedicated marksman rifle. The truth is the M4 is good for up to around 300 to 500 meters while the M14 with its 7.62mm round has shown to be lethal at well over 1000 meters.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Energy Rebel said:


> ....
> For knockdown power, I prefer a .45 ACP.
> Coincidentally, it will just fit in a .410 shotgun, thus giving you a pistol and a shotgun round.....


This information is incorrect and is quite possibly that Energy Rebel meant to suggest the .45 Colt cartridge. The .45ACP round is rimless, consequently it will not chamber in a .410 shotgun. If one attempts to load a .45ACP round into a .410, the round will drop down into the barrel a couple of inches.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

In the home: 12 ga shotgun (Buckshot)

Close up outdoors: M4 or M16 (AR-15) in 5.56NATO

Long range outdoors: M1A (M14) in 7.62NATO

With me all the time: 1911 or revolver in .45acp (used to fight my way to get my rifle)


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## silverbackMP (Dec 4, 2005)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I guess it depends on what you definition of long range is. Afghanistan has proven that the range of the M4 firing 5.56mm rounds is inadequate in many situations and that is why the trusty old M14 is being brought back out of storage, updated, and being issued to many squads as a dedicated marksman rifle. The truth is the M4 is good for up to around 300 to 500 meters while the M14 with its 7.62mm round has shown to be lethal at well over 1000 meters.


5.56 can be good out to 400-500 meters. M4s have shorter barrels thus slightly less range. Most importantly, most M4s are equipped with relfex type sights (M68s aka Aimpoints), good for close quarter combat like in Iraq but not so much for long range shots. 

That being said, in a Madmax scenerio, how many ranged shots are you going to be taking in a firefight? Unless you live in the arid west on a mountain, I guarantee 95% would be less than 100 meters and 80% would be less than 25 meters.

AR15 midlength type and 12 guage would be my choice; especially for a person not too familiar with guns. AR15 in 5.56/223 has very little recoil and 12 guage is "point and shoot." 5.56 and 12 guage Ammo is fairly cheap unlike a 7.62 (those days of cheap surplus ball ammo are over). The gun does you no good if you can't afford much ammo to practice with it. 

I would rank importance of guns in this order 1) .22 rifle for small game/learning 2) 12 guage pump (Rem 870 or mossberg) or a GOOD autoloader (benelli), 3) Ar 15, 4) 9mm handgun (again cheap ammo) 5) Bolt action rifle (Win Model 70, Rem 700/788, or Savage) or M1A (semi auto M14).

#s 2 and 3 could be flipped, depends on your geography/enviroment (METT-C).

Don't get me wrong--I love love love love M1As and M1 Garands but I would put other priorities first.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

What is "long range" around your place, CF? I used a pace counter the other day and I don't have an unobstructed field of fire more than 300 meters in any direction from my house.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> What is "long range" around your place, CF? I used a pace counter the other day and I don't have an unobstructed field of fire more than 300 meters in any direction from my house.


There is no "long range" around the house and yard due to the nearby forest. The only long range shot I might ever have to take would be out on our road at an oncoming engine block with an 7.62 M61 round.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

If we are talking sniper range, then yeah, there are better options than a .223 but they night be a little much in the house or barn.
I don't know that there is any one gun for all occasions.
Personally, for defensive and pest control in close, I just carry a pistol or a pistol caliber carbine.
For longer ranges, I break out something more appropriate, and for bird hunting and making a mess of a bad guy in the house, a 12 gage.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

I reread the OP's post, and while I agree that eventually he should eventually transition to something with more firepower, I believe in an old adage that says a hit with a .22 is far better than a miss with a (Insert your favorite big bore weapon here). The.22 may not be the ideal defense weapon but I will take someone who can place 10 shots in the size of a paper plate at 50 yards with a .22 over someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn at the same distance with a .308.

I personally like the .45acp, especially when used in a good old reliable 1911A1. But I do not feel undergunned if I have my 9mm becuse it carries twice as much ammunition as the 1911A1.

I also like the 7.62x39mm Russian round because it is cheap and readily available, in my area anyways. This round can be used in many platforms, the AK-47, SKS, a few bolt action rifles, and even the M4 has a variant that fires it. This is a proven manstopper and will take larger game like deer if you buy the soft point hunting round.

Shotguns are an interesting weapon to me. Most say the 12 gauge is the way to go and perhaps for all around verstatility it is. But for smaller shooters it can be brutal to shoot and cause for horrible accuracy due to the flinch. My wife is petite and the 12 gauge is way to big and heavy for her. She wants a shotgun and has tried many of them in gun stores for fit and weight and has settled on the .410 Mossberg pump. We dscussed it and I agree with her thought process that the lighter gun, with less recoil, will ensure a higher probability of a hit and an even higher probability of a second hit if need be. (Not only is she beautiful but she is smart too!!) I have a 12 gauge Mossberg pump and that would be my primary choice for a home defense weapon if an intruder is inside the home. generally a shotgun ends most close range conflicts rather quickly.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

shawnlee said:


> For defending a fixed position, many weapons will work and for hunting many weapons will work.....each tool serves a different purpose, so in order to be prepared to do different work, you need different tools....ammo weight is of little concern in this scenario.
> 
> 
> For bugging out, I am working on a pack right now, I have come to think a .22 is about as good as you can get....
> ...


The OP expressed wanting a lever action rifle in .22LR.. There are several models of lever action .357 magnum rifles - I have a Winchester model 94AE, and a Marlin model 1895 lever action rifles that are chambered in .357 magnum/ .38 special..



Cabin Fever said:


> This information is incorrect and is quite possibly that Energy Rebel meant to suggest the .45 Colt cartridge. The .45ACP round is rimless, consequently it will not chamber in a .410 shotgun. If one attempts to load a .45ACP round into a .410, the round will drop down into the barrel a couple of inches.


CF - I was wondering about using a rimless .45 a.c.p. round, in a .410 shotgun.. Just as you described, it would fall away from the breech, and down into the barrel, if a .45 a.c.p. round was loaded into a shotgun. The rimmed .45 Long Colt is what is used in the Taurus Judge revolvers, that fire .410 shotgun shells and .45 LC cartridges.

Where I live at, a .22LR fired at a Mountain Lion or a Black Bear is just gonna get them mad at you, and you could just possibly be attacked by one miffed and slightly wounded wild animal!!!

I am in the same scenario as CF - due to the forest here. I would have to find a firing range, clearing, go to the beach, or shoot down some portions of the road to exceed distances of more than 100 yards.


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

Now if you handload, you can do as I do. Rem 760 pump in 30-06. I carry a few handloads in my pocket when deer hunting. 80 grain soft lead over 3.8 grains of powder. Speed and noise like a .22 short but with 3x the bullet weight plenty of power for rabbit or dispatching a beaver in a trap. See through scope mount to use the iron sights. This is my answer to 1 gun, (I have lots of guns) but is is still no good as a shotgun.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Trying to do many jobs with one tool only results in having one tool which does none of the jobs well. If you need to defend yourself, the best weapon for that job will probably not be well suited for taking small game.
If I was in that situation, I'd figure out which tool did the most important job best. I'd rather have to shoot small game with a .223 than to try to defend myself with a .22lr.:duel:


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## steadfree (Mar 10, 2010)

thanks for all the input. I agree with several arguements. I have experience with firearms; I was in the Marines and have hunted geese with a 12g for several years. My questions would be about survival in SHTF scenairo...could a 22lr deter attackers, easy to carry ammo, put down some food, cheap and easy to scavenge. I would like to carry one ammo. Can .223 be put into a pistol?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

skidds327 said:


> ... Can .223 be put into a pistol?


Sure, Sig makes one.....


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

I have 500yds fof on 2 sides,300 on other and 50ft to dirt road I can block very easily 1m in either direction.So I figure with the little woman manning the 1919A4(with a couple hundred feet of linked belts)..I can try and keep their heads down at the far ranges with a .300H&H Improved and my trusty .308 tac rifle with handloads.If they break through those distances,then we're down to the nutcutting...AR,AK and she can try and hit something with the stupid HK squirtgun.Then it's down to 1911's and knives...and I HATE knives...way too personal.....other than that nothing like a good .22 to have around the homestead...just replaced barrel on my Ruger 10/22 after 15yrs.


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

skidds327 said:


> Can .223 be put into a pistol?


Olympic Arms, and probably several others, make AR-15 pistols.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37&vmcchk=1&Itemid=37


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

Okay, I apologize for the seeming harshness of my next comment.

Frankly, I can't think of anything more impractical than a pistol in .223, or 7.62x39, or any other midrange cartridge like that. The practical usage and the ability to hit anything with it seem extremely limited and impractical.

Buy 2 guns, buy a pistol chambered for a pistol round and buy a rifle. Both of which have practical applications and will be far better suited to practical use requiring the ability to hit what you are shooting at with a minimum of rounds.


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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm a bit surpised that nobody has yet mentioned a lever action short rifle or carbine, chambered for .357 or .44 magnum, or 45 long Colt. The magnums will also use .38 special or .44 special ammo. Any "one gun" will necessarily be a compromise, and the short rifles fit in the middle of weight, reach, and knockdown. 
Without knowing all of the requirements, the best answer is a bit of a guessing game.


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## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

skidds327 said:


> thanks for all the input. I agree with several arguements. I have experience with firearms; I was in the Marines and have hunted geese with a 12g for several years. My questions would be about survival in SHTF scenairo...could a 22lr deter attackers, easy to carry ammo, put down some food, cheap and easy to scavenge. I would like to carry one ammo. Can .223 be put into a pistol?


223 can be put in a pistol, but you would be better off with a 22 or anything else, really. Most 223 rounds are not designed to be fired in short barrels, so you lose the fragmentation, etc. in shorter barrels. Also, if you have never fired a short barrel 223 without hearing protection, you are blessed, because, trust me, you NEVER want to. The last time I fired a 10" contender in 223, was during a coyote hunt, and was the first time I fired it without hearing protection, and the last time I will ever use that pistol... You will go deaf in a few rounds, and indoors would be worse, not to mention you will deafen others.....

Your best option is to carry two firearms. If one is a 22lr, great. You can carry quite a bit of ammo and in a pinch it will do most of want you want it to. The other should be something to put folks/animals down at close range. Shotgun, minimum .38 special handgun, AR, AK, whatever. You cannot carry as much ammo, but when you need it, you do not want to be faced with trying to make a 22lr fill the role..... As others have mentioned, most encounters like that do not require multiple mag dumps with AR style rifles, rather a few rounds here and there, which is really all you can carry. The 22 can pretty much fill the other roles much nicer. Hunting, small game, large game if you can get in close enough for precise shot placement, noise maker to gather attention, or attempt to make others go another way....


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

StL.Ed said:


> I'm a bit surpised that nobody has yet mentioned a lever action short rifle or carbine, chambered for .357 or .44 magnum, or 45 long Colt. The magnums will also use .38 special or .44 special ammo. Any "one gun" will necessarily be a compromise, and the short rifles fit in the middle of weight, reach, and knockdown.
> Without knowing all of the requirements, the best answer is a bit of a guessing game.


I dig lever action rifles. So far all I have is a Henry Repeating Arms .22 that will shoot shorts, longs, and long rifles. I also have a .22 pistol that resembles an old west 6 gun that will shoot the same and with a cylinder change will shoot .22 magnums. I bought both of these just because I always wanted those old west looking guns ever since I was a kid!! That Henry is a sweeeeeeeeeeeet shooting rifle and accurate as all get out.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I have a nice 30-30 lever action, but it's got a scope on it so it's terrible for home defense. It's my big varmint gun.


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## steadfree (Mar 10, 2010)

I dig lever action rifles. So far all I have is a Henry Repeating Arms .22 that will shoot shorts, longs, and long rifles. I also have a .22 pistol that resembles an old west 6 gun that will shoot the same and with a cylinder change will shoot .22 magnums. I bought both of these just because I always wanted those old west looking guns ever since I was a kid!! That Henry is a sweeeeeeeeeeeet shooting rifle and accurate as all get out. 


I was thinking a Henry lever action .22. How many rounds will it hold and how fast can you reload the rifle. I think you can put a scope on it. Will this rifle shoot .22 mags??


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

I like the older tube magazine .22's. My circa 1937 Marlin model 81 holds 15 in the tube and is a real tack driver also.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

skidds327 said:


> I dig lever action rifles. So far all I have is a Henry Repeating Arms .22 that will shoot shorts, longs, and long rifles. I also have a .22 pistol that resembles an old west 6 gun that will shoot the same and with a cylinder change will shoot .22 magnums. I bought both of these just because I always wanted those old west looking guns ever since I was a kid!! That Henry is a sweeeeeeeeeeeet shooting rifle and accurate as all get out.
> 
> 
> I was thinking a Henry lever action .22. How many rounds will it hold and how fast can you reload the rifle. I think you can put a scope on it. Will this rifle shoot .22 mags??


15 long rifles, 17 longs and 21 shorts. You have to pull the rod out of the tube and reload one at a time. I haven't ever tried to reload it fast, but I don;t think it would be any speed demon to reload.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

skidds327,

If rapid reload is a concern, and .22LR is where you want to start, I recommend a Ruger 10/22 with some Ramline 30 round magazines. It will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I have had my 10/22 for 34 years and as long as I kept it fairly clean I have never had issues with it. Let it get too dirty and stove pipe FTE's were routine.


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## tankpa (Mar 9, 2011)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I reread the OP's post, and while I agree that eventually he should eventually transition to something with more firepower, I believe in an old adage that says a hit with a .22 is far better than a miss with a (Insert your favorite big bore weapon here). The.22 may not be the ideal defense weapon but I will take someone who can place 10 shots in the size of a paper plate at 50 yards with a .22 over someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn at the same distance with a .308.
> 
> I personally like the .45acp, especially when used in a good old reliable 1911A1. But I do not feel undergunned if I have my 9mm becuse it carries twice as much ammunition as the 1911A1.
> 
> ...


I am going with a .410 bore AK-47. Have you seen them? Now if I could just find one I would be a happy camper. To me it is the all around all purpose gun.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

tankpa said:


> I am going with a .410 bore AK-47. Have you seen them? Now if I could just find one I would be a happy camper. To me it is the all around all purpose gun.


I believe the shotguns are Saiga's built in Russia using the same action style as the AK-47.

I have seen them at my local gun store in 12 gauge.


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## tankpa (Mar 9, 2011)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I believe the shotguns are Saiga's built in Russia using the same action style as the AK-47.
> 
> I have seen them at my local gun store in 12 gauge.


Yep, that's them. I want one that is .410.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

several options become avalable when you have a tool that will fit in your pocket 

you can do 223 with a 5mm pelet stuffed in the neck

i even heard of a guy who filled a 223 round with leag then bored it out so the 5mm pelet could be pushed right down tight against the primer he also opens up the primer hole a bit more 

this is also common in 30 call with a single 00 buck pelet , most crimp it in like you would a bullet and use just a primer or a primer and just a touch of powder 

this was the gallery load use for indoor gallery shooting in the 1880-1920s but plenty to take small game and very accurate at short distances 

primers and peets are very light you only need to cary a few brass altered for this purpose as your not shooting tons of small game at once , then you reload them up 

another idea is there is an adapter to place a 22lr inside it and it fits the chamber of a 223 or others are made for other common 22cal center fire rifles placed in chamber and fire when your ready for the next round to be a regular round

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

SocialAnarchist said:


> Okay, I apologize for the seeming harshness of my next comment.
> 
> Frankly, I can't think of anything more impractical than a pistol in .223, or 7.62x39, or any other midrange cartridge like that. The practical usage and the ability to hit anything with it seem extremely limited and impractical.
> 
> Buy 2 guns, buy a pistol chambered for a pistol round and buy a rifle. Both of which have practical applications and will be far better suited to practical use requiring the ability to hit what you are shooting at with a minimum of rounds.


 Not harsh-reality....when using a rifle rd in a short AR/AK the wound ballistics are horrible...the rds are moving under 2000fps..most around 1750.....but they are fun as the short barrels throw a horrendous muzzle flash-one of the guys in our emmagee group has a fullauto HK51-a .308 with an 8" barrel-throws out a 6' flame-cool at night


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

zant said:


> Not harsh-reality....when using a rifle rd in a short AR/AK the wound ballistics are horrible...the rds are moving under 2000fps..most around 1750.....but they are fun as the short barrels throw a horrendous muzzle flash-one of the guys in our emmagee group has a fullauto HK51-a .308 with an 8" barrel-throws out a 6' flame-cool at night


Heck, I am all for fun guns. My .22 old west styled 6 gun was bought solely for the fun and cool factor, heck so was my Henry. Although that Henry is an awesomely accurate rifle and has dispatched a varmint or 2 in the yard.

But since the OP was looking for practical advice, I would eliminate any rifle sized round used in a pistol from logical selection.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I am going with a *.410 bore AK-47*


I wouldn't bet *my* life on one


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I wouldn't bet *my* life on one


Unless you care to elaborate this post by you is really quite useless.

Because it begs the question: Is it the round you are challenging or the weapon?


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

skidds327 said:


> thanks for all the input. I agree with several arguements. I have experience with firearms; *I was in the Marines *and have hunted geese with a 12g for several years. My questions would be about survival in SHTF scenairo...could a 22lr deter attackers, easy to carry ammo, put down some food, cheap and easy to scavenge. I would like to carry one ammo. Can .223 be put into a pistol?


Just curious from one Devil Dog to another, what was your MOS in the Marine Corps?? I was Infantry 0311 and 0331 - Beirut Era Marine here. If I really needed a rifle for your posted scenario, I want one in a heavier caliber with a bayonet on the end of it!



StL.Ed said:


> _I'm a bit surpised that nobody has yet mentioned a lever action short rifle or carbine, chambered for .357 or .44 magnum, or 45 long Colt. The magnums will also use .38 special or .44 special ammo._ Any "one gun" will necessarily be a compromise, and the short rifles fit in the middle of weight, reach, and knockdown.
> Without knowing all of the requirements, the best answer is a bit of a guessing game.


Look at my post #28 on page one... I have two lever action carbines chambered in .357 magnum/ .38 special that go with my revolvers.

Cabin Fever, doesn't the Thompson Contender have a 5.56mm/ .223 Remington barrel?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

radiofish said:


> ....Cabin Fever, doesn't the Thompson Contender have a 5.56mm/ .223 Remington barrel?


I don't have one, and without looking it up, I'm guessing T/C makes one. The closest thing I have for my T/C is a .30-30 barrel.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Because it begs the question: Is it the round you are challenging or the weapon?


That round IN that weapon.

The 410 is not really good for much given it's limited shot capacity, and low pressure GAS OPERATED firearms are unreliable with the dirty powders commonly used in shotshells, plastic wads, and loose pellets.

410 shells are some of the most expensive yet they carry the smallest payloads, and even with a slug, it barely has the energy or accuracy to be a good 50 yd weapon.

The AK platform is a wonderful design as long as it's used with the TYPE of cartridge it was designed *for*

As an "all around, all purpose gun", I think in practical terms a .410 AK doesn't really have what it takes


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by radiofish
> ....Cabin Fever, doesn't the Thompson Contender have a *5.56mm/ .223 Remington barrel*?


Yes, they make several variations in both pistol and rifle lengths


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

The originater of this post wants multipurpose guns (plural). This is a good idea because 2 or 3 can cover most senarios well. Check the other posts for the benifits of various calibers and guages. They also wanted something that used ammo that was easy to come by in case they had to scrounge for ammo. I'm not sure how easy it would be to take ammo away from someone else in a SHTF senario. I think the most common ammo are 22lr, 30-06, 45, 38, and 12 guage. There may be lots of the military (NATO) rounds out there but I think most people have the ones I listed.

I believe that a 12 guage will kick less than a 20. Now before people go ape---- on me for saying this, listen to the reasoning. A 12 guage gun is usually heavier than a 20. You can buy or load ammo for the 12 guage in just about any configuration you want. If you use cartriges in both guage guns that have the same shot load and muzzle velocity, they will be suitable for the same purpose and if the actions are the same, the heavier gun will have less felt recoil. I like to have a 12 loaded with lighter loads although smaller people may like the lighter weight of the 20 guage gun for handling.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

InvalidID said:


> I'm on board with the 22lr. Cheap, anyone can shoot. I mean in a bad spot my 6 YO daughter could place a decent shot. That does count for something.
> If you are looking to scavenge ammo AFTER a SHTF thing, I think 5.56 would be the way to go. It's a US military (and NATO) round, fired from the M16. I think there's quite a bit of that floating around.
> Also, a rifle chambered in 5.56 will fire a .223 round without issue, though not necessarily the other way around.
> 
> ...


 The Mosin Nagant is very accurate as a rule, the 7.62x54R ammo is wicked cheap & pretty much on a par w/308 (powerfull), AND I just saw recently that there are sites where you can still pick one up for $70 !
Otherwise, I'd have to go along w/the 22 LR in maybe a Ruger 10-22 semi-auto rifle for small money - ammo is cheap & large magazines too.
Also, you can use the same ammo in a 22 pistol if you wanted to eventually get a handgun ? Ruger Mark II's are cheap & plentifull.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

rickfrosty said:


> The Mosin Nagant is very accurate as a rule, the 7.62x54R ammo is wicked cheap & pretty much on a par w/308 (powerfull), AND I just saw recently that there are sites where you can still pick one up for $70 !
> Otherwise, I'd have to go along w/the 22 LR in maybe a Ruger 10-22 semi-auto rifle for small money - ammo is cheap & large magazines too.
> Also, you can use the same ammo in a 22 pistol if you wanted to eventually get a handgun ? Ruger Mark II's are cheap & plentifull.


 I love my old commie gun. It's my work/fun shooter for sure. Cheap enough that I'm not scared to bang it up a little, reliable and shoots straight even WHEN I bang it up. 
There's also something to be said about a big loud gun for defense. When the average Joe hears what sounds like a naval cannon and see's a 3ft fireball that alone can be a deterrent. 
I can also get about 5" groups at 500 paces. (I don't know how many yards that works out to, but I'm assuming about 500...lol) I think a better shooter could do better than that, but I'm happy with it. I figure if I aim for center mass, it's a good bet the target goes down.

I see a lot of recommendations for the Ruger 10/22, I'd like to throw in a vote for Savage 64. Cheap, fun, and mine seems to shoot straighter than most Rugers. My kids can knock the heads off daisy's at 50 yards or so with the scope.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I've said it before I'll say it again. If you are limited to one firearm a shotgun is the only way to go. No other weapon can be used to reliable (key word there) harvest anything from quail to moose and to protect yourself. With one shotgun and several differently loaded shells you can handle just about anything that takes place within 100 yards.

There are very few situations where I would feel I could not handle if I was carrying a 12ga with the properly selected rounds.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The originater of this post wants multipurpose* guns (plural). *


Yes, that is the long term goal, but it's not how I read the original question:



> I would like this *first gun *to have the capabilities *to protect and hunt small game*.


I think it takes 4 guns *minimum* to cover basic needs:

A 22 rifle
A shotgun
A long range rifle
A defensive caliber handgun


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The west was settled and tamed with most homesteaders having exactly ONE gun.


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## steadfree (Mar 10, 2010)

12 gauge is good all purpose gun..but you would need to carry at least 3-4 different shots to fullfill. #9 for small birds, BB for geese and slugs for deer. Plus being able to carry over 1000 rounds in a BOB is heavy. The reason for using the same round from rifle to handgun is for simplicity and range of target. If I had to take a guns to survive in the wilderness and protect my family...I think grabbing .22 Ruger 10/22 with 10 shots mag and then a matching pistol to share ammo would be the best.


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## phlip99999 (Aug 20, 2009)

A used .22 and a used shotgun (12 or 20 gauge) wouldn't set you back much, maybe $250 if you shop a little bit. You're not buying beauty for that price, but you'll get functional.

If you're really committed to a single caliber multipurpose with a pistol, consider 9mm. You can pick up several styles of carbines (Hi-Point makes a popular, cheap, and well made one as an example), all of which are very light recoil. Pistols are more than plentiful, covering every price point. And ammunition is cheap and relatively packable (not compared to a .22 lr, but certainly compared to anything else). Given a choice between a .22 or a 9mm for self-defense, there's no contest. And as a further bonus, you can load your own if you're so inclined.

Just another option.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

When I had a guy fly me out 200 miles to hunt caribou in Alaska, his safety speech was unlike any other airline speech. He told us where to turn on the emergency transponder if he was dead, said where the survival pack and food were, and said there is a 12 ga with shells wired under that seat. In the land of ptarmigan, moose, porcupines and brown bear, he packs a shotgun for survival every day.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Ernie said:


> The west was settled and tamed with most homesteaders having exactly ONE gun.


A great many of those were the Winchester lever action repeaters.


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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

radiofish said:


> Look at my post #28 on page one... I have two lever action carbines chambered in .357 magnum/ .38 special that go with my revolvers.


Sorry, I missed that. :ashamed:
I've got couple of revolvers that can be fed the same ammo as my Winchester 94ae in .44; also, a Ruger semi-auto, but it's not as good of a second, because it's very particular about its ammo. I like the concept of being able to have a second choice that uses the same rounds. :thumb:


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The best gun is the one that every time it goes bang something else for flop.
Remember the saying about a man with one gun and why we should beware him


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