# basic land



## tarmogoyf (Feb 12, 2010)

hi, I dont know enough about zoning laws to know what my limitations are. say I purchased a lot of vacant land and wanted to build a simple weekend cabin on it. 

does it have to be built specifically on land thats 'residential' or can it be on land thats 'recreational' or 'hunting' land. Im looking on landandfarm.com for land in my state and I dont know what type of land I should be looking for. 

Im not looking to have city cable/phone/power/water added, if anything it would be minor solar power or from a portable generator.

theres also timberland - natural/planted, land - undeveloped, and other various agriculture land types.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Some areas require a certain amount of acreage for wastewater. Like 5 acres for outhouse or compost toilets,2 acres for septic, ect... local laws vary so make sure you get enough acreage for what you are wanting to do in that area.


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## tarmogoyf (Feb 12, 2010)

would those be local by state or by county ?


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

tarmogoyf said:


> would those be local by state or by county ?


Yes to the above!!! And depending on which state your looking at even "town" codes have to be considered. :grit:


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## tarmogoyf (Feb 12, 2010)

wow, thats crazy. I see this is going to give me a headache.


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## Navotifarm (Dec 16, 2009)

Well, a head ache if you clog up your hed with all the rules and regulations and by-laws and whatever but not if you simply set your priorities on having a private parcel of land of your very own to live and be free. Your solution is to find this land, then get a P.O. Box or a friend whose home you can use as your "legal residence." 

Get a small rv or travel trailer. Do NOT affix it to your land! In some places it is legal to camp out on your own land for six months. Generous, huh? That's why the WWOFFERs can live in tents or very substandard housing in the summers when they work on farms. By all means, try to stay under the bureaucrats' radar. There are lots of laws against living on your own land in this free country that yuo can trigger such as if you don't have running water or electricity or an occupancy permit or whatever will make your taxes go up and raise money for your jurisdiction but are not really concerned with your welfare and privacy and your constitutional right to enjoyment of your own land.

If a nasty neighbor rats you out, causing the county zoning people to send you scare letters, don't argue and get their backs up -- simply move your trailer or get a second one and play musical chairs which will invalidate their complaint. The clock starts ticking with each new location! Hopefully, if you are jolly about it and don't torment them too much, they will find more important things to worry about. 

My own dream was always to have land and I got some but had no money for a house and all the expensive hassles that go with it. I intended to live frugally within my budget. I "camped" on my land for over ten years and acquired an assortment of seven trailers during that time. The first one was a small mobile home that had been repossessed which was given to me. I got a storage permit for it, intending to store myself in it and had it tied down to county specs but the building inspector faked me out and made me remove the stove, refrigerator, sinks, bath tub, furnace, etc. Then I got an Airstream and applied for a permit to live in it but they gave me a permit conditional on my starting to build a home in six months. Two strikes and my law-abiding nature underwent a change! So much for being a goody two-shoes! I became a criminal and lived illegally on my own land. A nearby trailer park was closed down and all the unfortunate residents tossed out. Their bad luck was my good luck because the county regulations prevented them from relocating anywhere because they had older homes, meaning hey had no place to put their homes so were giving them away. I got the smallest one there and had a bulldozer guy make a place for it one Sunday and a trailer mover guy bring it to my land the next Sunday. Then I had a plumber who hunts on my land install a $125 propane wall heater from Lowe's in it. I bought propane tanks at Tractor Supply and my hunters would put them on and off my truck for me so I could have them filled. My hunters also set me up rain barrels for roof water catchment and I used propane camping lanterns and a one-burner stove. I bought a generator and deep cell battery for the Airstream because it was wonderfully equipped with dc lights etc but trespassing hunters stole these fine luxuries, so I just stayed with the primitive appliances. (Sometimes the vermin let the propane out of my tanks but that wasn't as expensive to replace as the generator).

Some years ago Mother Earth News had a neat article about building a Thoreau-sized cabin. This is under the size (an early Tiny House) where you need a permit for a house but of course, if you live in it then you are breaking some other law, so by all means put it on wheels if you build one! 

One of my favorite and most inspiring books was "Travel Trailer Homesteading for $5,000" which may still be available. Or Mike Oeschler's (spelling?) "The $50 and Up Underground House" book. One of my favorite websites is the Tiny House site. You're on the right track. Don't let anybody derail you. If you want land and to live on it simply and frugally, you can do just that!


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## tarmogoyf (Feb 12, 2010)

hi, amazing story. you sound exactly like the person I need to talk to. 
ok, so with it being legal to camp on your land for 6 months. and with saying the property appraiser repeatedly coming to check out your trailers. how did they know you were there to begin with ? and how did they know how many months you'd been there ?

the most electric I wanted was either generator based or minor solar. does that still count as having electric on the property ?

I was/am planning on building a 16x16 very basic cabin. I read somewhere that someone had gotten around his local zoning laws due to his cabin being under 200 square feet. I tried to look up local zoning laws for places I was looking to buy some land, but couldnt find them in the maze of korean stereo instructions that they were.

thats another thing I've thought about too, but had no idea who or where to ask about it, is trespassing hunters. I figured if I had a 5-10 acre property that would be too large to fence off completely. so I thought about just fencing off the area around the cabin. but how often are they a problem ? what can you do to ward them off or protect yourself better ?

what I want to do is to buy somewhere between 5-20 acres in the middle of nowhere and just go ahead and build the 16x16 cabin on it anyways. Im not entirely sure how anyone would ever really know it was there. as long as I never mentioned it or made a nuisance of myself. Im just really tired of city life and need a nice long break to restore my sanity and psyche. but it seems like all these laws and zoning make it a total pain.


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

Sounds like fencing kind of defeats the purpose, and it would invite further scrutiny. Traditionally, posting private property is the best way to keep hunters out. Post the borders of your land with no trespassing signs, and post around the cabin with safety zone signs.

Frankly, hunters would not concern me much. I'd be much, much more concerned with local kids vandalizing the place, or using it for a party spot, when you weren't there. We've actually had beds stolen from our hunting cabin. Don't think you can keep them out. If you can gain access, so can they. No lock or chain will stop them. Don't leave anything valuable at the cabin.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Couldn't you could also build the cabin on skids(half logs) and move it? Your best bet is to find an area with lax or no rules and regs. Hard to find anymore but possible. Sounds like Navitofarm was in a very strict area. Each state,county,and municipality has their own rules and regs. The mission is to find an area that fits your needs.(easier said than done)

As far as trespassers, it all depends on where you are located. Believe it or not, there are still places in this country that people can leave their doors unlocked at night. Some places as mentioned you would have to build yourself a Fort Knox.


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

As a side note in TN at least the county we are moving into. Outside of the city limits no permits needed. The only inspection is the health dept and that would only happen if you get power. No septic inspection no elect meter.
Whereas in Ma you need a permit to change a faucet.
Sign me 
outa here soon


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Private property is the holy grail of law. That means if you own it you don't owe any duty to anyone, state, federal or UN. That also means whether you are in a city or out in the boonies.

If you don't mind listening to radio type programs George Gordon did a series on a guy he knew in Montana who successfully built his own house, got it connected to power, could not get an occupancy permit so could not receive mail there (another positive), lived in it for a number of years, could not get a bank to mortgage it for the new buyer so he sold on a land contract.

You might have to do a search for the right program but they can be found here in the talk show archives. Probably are back in 2007 or 2008.
http://library.georgegordon.com/


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

steve0
I am in a very unrestricted area of TN. With in the past 6 months they passed new laws about septics . Maybe double check to be sure you are still in a good area.


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## tarmogoyf (Feb 12, 2010)

palani said:


> You might have to do a search for the right program but they can be found here in the talk show archives. Probably are back in 2007 or 2008.
> http://library.georgegordon.com/


I listened to the first hour but he didnt mention the guy with the house. any idea which one it might be ? as theres another 6 hours or so. thanks for the link btw.


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## Navotifarm (Dec 16, 2009)

I am in a "strict" location because I relocated from Northern Virginia and wanted to be within a two to three hour drive because I did not want to sever good ties I had there. 

One thing a super con man told me years ago which I have found to be very helpful advice is: "Find out what the law is. Then you can tell (by omission) what is NOT against the law."

Interestingly, another aspect is non-enforcement of laws that are on the books. Or enforcement of non-existing laws, rules and regulations. Oh, yes, and changes!

What worked for me was to find out what was not against the law and then do that. For example, when I applied for the permit to live in the Airstream, I was issued a permit conditional on getting a construction/building permit within six months. Had I gotten the building permit, I could have renewed the permit to live in the Airstream. However, I had no money to build a house and didn't want to lie and make false promises or go through the application hassle. 

By bringing in the third trailer on a Sunday, the "authorities" were off duty and my hostile neighbors at a gun show or whatever. Nobody knew it was there for months until I ran some 4-wheelers off my land. For spite, they complained to the authorities (several of them, making separate trips). 

This caused inspection teams to visit me without notice but I'm very isolated, so they agreed that the complainers would not have known I was "camping out" if they had not been trespassing. What with my isolation, the fact nobody knew when the third trailer had been brought in or which trailer I was living in, I was simply sent a scare letter and left alone by the "authorities" for years. They actually were good-hearted and could see I was doing the best I could with what I had.


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## MN Gardener (Jan 23, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts, but here is my suggestion. Find some land in a county / township that has the least amount of regulations. The township I live in is pretty laid back, but the township about 10 miles is extremely regulated. You can pretty much tell which ones are heavily regulated - they have the mansions that are close together. Figure out where you want to live and expand out from there. You can use a composting toilet or similar and reuse your grey water to water the garden. If you find the right area, it should be fine. Also, check out the post in the General Homesteading forum by survivalpro, it is very good.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=341831

If I wasn't married with 5 kids, I sure would like to do what he is doing.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Good bet would be to look for land near Amish settlements. Amish aren't known for their love of building codes and such so it is a pretty good indicator of how much red tape your going to be in for. Another good rule of thumb is the more people in an area the better chance there is for more baloney. Places with very few people tend to be really laid back.


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## tarmogoyf (Feb 12, 2010)

so what exactly is the difference between recreational and residential ? can you build a cabin on something zoned recreational ? like legally. wouldnt a "weekend" cabin count as something recreational ?


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## Navotifarm (Dec 16, 2009)

saying the property appraiser repeatedly coming to check out your trailers. how did they know you were there to begin with ? and how did they know how many months you'd been there ?

When you acquire land, the deed is recorded in the local city court. The information goes to the tax commissioner's office, including the "consideration" you paid (unless you bartered for it, as I did) and your name and address where the tax bills are paid. This is "public information." At the time I recorded my deed, anybody could get the information at the courthouse by looking in the deed books but now the tax commissioner has. Everybody's information on-line such as name, GIS location, tax assessment value, whether your taxes are paid up or, if in arrears, how much of a dead beat you are. In addition, various agencies (forest service and others) do photographic fly-overs. These appear on the county GIS maps with boundary survey lines overlaid, Google and elsewhere. So the first folks that learn your whereabouts are the tax officials who send minions out to do tax assessments. The information they publish opens your location to scrutiny of speculators and many unknown others. 

Second, in my case, when I applied for the storage trailer permit, I had to deal with a) zoning and b) building officials. 

Third, I got my wooded land from an absentee owner. He visited it only a few times a year to preserve his right of way and hunt. The locals used his land and other neglected adjoining parcels as their own private hunting and atv and paint ball war recreation ground. One neighbor, a transvestite, used to patrol with a shotgun and run people off. He was a notorious drunk so even skilled gun handlers were afraid of him. Very unnerving to be threatened by a drunken man wearing a wig and make up and female clothing brandishing a gun and doing port arms at you!

This man and his hunt club buddies decided I was a bambi lover and did everything they could think of to keep me from living on my land. Including vindictive reports to various officials which engendered unannounced inspection visits. 

So in thinking about basic land, you want to find out not just the obvious things such as the Uniform Building Code and your local health, zoning and building codes, which are probably on line now but weren't when I bought my land (but are constantly changing anyway) but also what kind of people are around the location you are interested in? What are they doing openly and/or undercover? How might they treat you? As a widow, they thought they could easily run me off. I guess that if I were a man or a couple I would have been treated better. Maybe. Interestingly, I have. More respect for the nasty neighbors than I do for the bureaucrats because the nasties are so very. Creative!


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## NorthCountryWd (Oct 17, 2008)

tarmogoyf said:


> so what exactly is the difference between recreational and residential ? can you build a cabin on something zoned recreational ? like legally. wouldnt a "weekend" cabin count as something recreational ?


You are asking questions that can only be answered by the municipality you are trying to buy/build in. Some towns/counties are strict about development, some are not. 

Around here, different towns have different requirements for permanent occupancy....it varies due to road frontage, septic availability, zoning regulations, etc. You can also live on land that is considered recreational. You will not receive mail/emergency services, your land is taxed at the non-resident rate (which is higher here) and you will not be able to insure or borrow against the structure, but they do not keep tabs on you living there. 

There are also some towns that have no zoning and have adopted national building codes, however have no one to police it (no inspectors). 

Development rights are very tricky and vary wildly from place to place. They will be one of the most important aspects of the land you purchase. I take it you are trying to make your purchase on the cheap, but the best money you could spend would be hiring a knowledgeable realtor or lawyer to do the investigation for you.


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## Mel- (Mar 30, 2004)

every town, area, county have different zoning regulations. you are going to have to ask for every piece of property. I'm in the same boat you are, looking for land with no permits required, and there is no easy way to do it.

doesn't matter whether it is residential or recreational or hunting. it matters what zoning the county or town or subdivision has. some parcels I have looked at had no building code restrictions but the SELLER was putting restrictions on the land (such as no poultry, pigs, etc).

in general, the states with the least restrictions that I have looked at have been ky, tenn and mo.

if you know at least what state you are limited to then contact a realtor within that area and tell them what you are looking for, that you want a piece of land with no building code restrictions. that will eliminate some entire counties in that state and they can let you know that (it eliminates my entire state!).


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## Wylie Kyote (Dec 1, 2009)

"How would they know your there" Satellite, Google maps etc, or just some vexatious person.


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

you can run, but sadly, never hide!

in our area, some ppl are selling land, but keeping all hunting rights--so no matter if you own it, keep it up, plant on it or fence animals, you'd always have ppl running thru it. i dont' get that at all, certainly would be a deal breaker for me!

and yup, if i wasn't tied to my family, and dont' get me wrong, i want to be here, but i could SO see myself getting an rv and 'camping' forever! after doing it for 9 months last year, there were so many tiny things that i learned and/or enjoyed about myself and being alone like that, it was very good. but if i did that, i'd get a camper that was in much better shape! mine is rather dumpy, but served me while i needed it.


survivalpro has really got it down well. excellent plan


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