# Sticky  any ideas for converting to rotational grazing?



## godsgapeach

Hi, all. Our family has been a farming family for 4 generations now and my brother and I would like to convert it to a more sustainable state. We've got at least 250 acres in pasture, but the 150 head of cattle have been allowed to roam wherever they please and graze on their favorite grasses--mostly fescue. Then they get alfalfa or bermuda hay in winter.

What I'd like to know is how best to plant seed for forage to introduce the rotation and eventually have fresh forage year round.

Also, would you suggest portable fencing or permanent paddocks?

One major consideration for us will be water availability. Since the cows are able to roam right now, they have access to a creek that backs the property. I can't envision how to include the creek (across some of the terrain we have--woods and steep hills) while limiting the grazing area, so some other watering method would be necessary.

Thanks for all suggestions!
Godsgapeach


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## TSYORK

I would suggest talking with agmantoo. He's on here quite a bit and is a deep well of knowledge with regards to rotational grazing. I'm confident he can provide a plethora of exceptional advice and wisdom regarding your questions. His achievments speak for themselves.


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## agmantoo

Let me forewarn you. I will bore you with encouragement to commit to rotational grazing. Over the years I have tried with varying degrees of success to make a profit farming. I did obviously survive those enterprises but with some profit most years and great risks all years. I was not comfortable as there was tremendous concern from too many variables. As farmers we have been sold a bill of goods that are questionable at best when we were told to increase production to increase profit. That does not work! Not for the farmer. It only increases risk. What we needed to learn was to reduce costs and profits will increase. Recently a conventional producer and I sent feeder calves to the sale on the same day. He went to the sale barn and got his check and I waited for the mail to deliver mine. Next morning at the local coffee shop he made it a point to announce in front of others "you are going to be disappointed when you get your check as I took a licking" or something close. I told him that "if they bring more than 20 cents a pound at least I will break even". His mouth fell open. Costs of land is not in that figure. If this resembles something similar to what you and your brother have in mind I can help.


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## godsgapeach

Go ahead, Agman! I don't believe you'll bore us a bit. We are like minded--not looking to increase production at all. We have the land; we have the cows. We just need some prodding in the general direction of how to convert the overgrazed pasture to something resembling your photo!

We know soil tests are in order so that will probably be our first step. We've looked for best choices for forage for our area for each season. We need to find our best option for seed supply (don't know what you think about Pennington, but they're in our hometown). What else do you suggest we do to get started?

Thanks for your help!
Godsgapeach


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## momanto

Go Agman, Sw Fl Is Listening Too.

Thanks, Mom


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## travlnusa

Rotational grazing is VERY easy.

Just do what Agmantoo tells you to do.

That is how I got under way.


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## mrpink

welcome to the board godsgapeach. its sounds like you are just up the road from me. i have to agree that agmantoo is the resident expert on rotational grazing here. lots of other knowledgeable folks around here as well.

greg


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## SusyTX

We're just starting out and contacted the NCRS (USDA) in our area, lots of good programs available.

A great series of U-Tube videos is available by Gene Sollock in Texas, here's a link: http://www.texasgrassfed.com/id4.html

That, along will Joel Salatin's "Grass-Fed Beef" is good...hope this helps!


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## agmantoo

If you do not mind I will ramble a bit and later we will get down to specifics. Going to rotational grazing is a big shift initially and one is working with a lot of unknowns that generates a level of uncomfortableness. Only with experience will you become fully certain it will work. How comfortable would you be if you had nearly no hay this time of year? I have 16 days worth for emergency use! I plan on going through the entire winter without feeding any hay and I am not uncomfortable. The extension agent has told me that I cannot calve year round, I do. I run the herd together, all ages, all sexes, never wean by separation. I am not the midwife to a cow. I may help a cow in trouble but I will cull her from the herd. I do not tolerate nervous, flightly or mean cows. I feed no grain, only salt and minerals. I have never had a vet to the place but I did call one once and he did not show. If I cannot cure the animal I put it down. It is cheaper and less involved. The farm grows only endophyte infected fescue and clovers and I feed the same forage 365 days per year. The cows seem to relish the forage each day. My calves sell in the top 10% of the feeder calves sold at the local sale barn. It is a large weekly sale with nearly a couple of thousand head per week. I have no help, this is a one man operation other than my wife will help me sort market calves. She opens and closes the gate. I sell at least four times per year. This schedule should give me an average of the sale price over the year instead of the lows typical when the market is flooded and yes I may miss the highs. The average is less risky to me. Other than periods when running the bushhog or dragging manure with a $50 worn out harrow I spend about 15 to 30 minutes moving cattle per day. I do band the bull calves and I ear tag all calves. The ear tags are coded to the year the calves are born to aid in knowing the age of retained heifers. I only bring in outside bulls. I harvest seed from the paddocks and reseed with these adapted seed. I do not disturb the existing stand, instead I just over seed. That little top soil is the best seed bed you will have and trash seed are not encouraged to grow. I have about 1.4 acres per cow/calf pair. Obviously the cow is on the farm all year and the calf is sold at approximately 550 pounds. I have not applied commercial fertilizer in 3 years. I did apply chicken litter on a portion. I keep the PH at 5.8 or higher. Just last month I hired the farm tested for PH and fertility needs. No fertilizer is needed, with rotational grazing more than 80% of what goes in the mouth comes out the rear as fertilizer and is spread by the animal. I do not have a weed problem and I do not use herbicides of any consequence. My baler is in storage and I sold my haybine. My fuel consumption has dropped dramatically. My machinery parts needs are minimal. I am certain that I have left something out as to the benefits but those will surface as we proceed. I will share this also. I live in the largest cow population county in NC so I have neighbors with animals. It hurts my conscience as I go about my minimal chores and I see the neighbors working as hard as they do.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
I need a little info.
How many of the acres are in the production of forage?
What are the average size of the fields? rolling hills growing grass are fields to me. I am actually a grass farmer with beef cows. I sell grass as meat.
Call you mentally visualize a large number of rectangular fields approximately 300 ft wide by any longer length (up to a couple thousand feet) running parallel with each other on this farm with the narrow ends of the rectangles reaching the back of the farm where there is water?
What breed of cattle are the majority?
What is their frame size?
Rate their milking ability.
Are you marketing feeder calves?
If so, at what weight?
What do you realistically expect to net from a calf?
State what your goals are with this conversion to rotational grazing
Do you have a budget for this project?
Would you consider installing a water system?
Do you have machinery? Tractor, bushhog, sod drill, drag harrow, post driver
Are you and your brother physical fit to do fencing and other farm type work and are you willing to do it?
If some of the questions are too personal just ignore them
The pic below is a strip that is ~300 wide and I have been allocating about 60 to 80+ feet of length to the cattle for the last 34 days. I just give them another section each day. Look closely and you can see the poly twine that is electrified to limit the movement. The cows are traveling less than 800 feet to water and their daily needs are being meet. They are ready to move but they are not hungry or balling. I just repeat this type thing day after day on the stock piled fescue as winter progresses. Are you aware that stock pile fescue has a a protein level around 17 percent and a tdn of more that 65%. This is better than most hay. The cattle harvest the fescue saving all the work and expense.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for the encouragement y'all. Yes, MrPink we're fairly close to your area.

We've been gathering info for the most part. We've been reading some Salatin--waiting on Salad Bar Beef from the library right now. And I found Sollock's videos just the other day. We've also been checking out Tom Trantham's grazing/seeding schedule (www.happycowcreamery.com) for forages that would work in our zone.

Our farm has been, and continues to be run predominantly by our Dad. We're just trying to help him out and try to lighten his load while we extend the legacy we've been given. In addition to the cows he also has 5 commercial chicken houses.

Agman, it'll take me a little time to respond to all your questions (I've got to find out some specifics). But I'll hit you with what I'm sure of now:

There are roughly 250 acres (by my guess) that the cows are pastured on now. Rectangles will be something of a challenge for forage areas. Someone many moons ago terraced the whole pasture area and there are some wooded areas as well within the pastures.

The cows are "mutts" mostly. The bulls are angus, but we've got mixed generations of breeder cows--some Santa Gertrudis, some Angus, a few Charolais, some Brangus, some Herefords, and a fair mix of all the above. They calve all year long too--not monitored, rarely have trouble--but most calve around February and October. We'll be able to weed some out to fund some of our ventures. But basically as long as they don't jump the fences or cattleguards(or lead the whole herd onto the local airport runway... but that's another story), they're with us long term and only calves are sold around 550#--I'll have to ask Daddy what they bring at the sale barn.

As for their size that varies depending on their mix. The Santa Gerts are largest--I think taller but just as barrel chested as yours maybe.

Our goals are to improve the fields, improve the stock, require less work of Daddy, and hopefully make it easier on him at tax time. We'd like to be as sustainable as possible, as little chemical as possible--not shooting for organic necessarily (cost of the hoops to jump through isn't worth it when we can sell locally as well as at the sale barn and those who know us will know our practices).

Since we're still in the info gathering stage we haven't set a budget yet. 

We are considering setting up a watering system--won't be the first time we've ditch-witched across the terraces. We may just have to drill another well for that purpose. There are a few old bored wells, but I don't know how reliable they are now.

I laugh about machinery--we've got just about one of everything. Maybe not a sod drill and the planting machinery, but bushhogs, plenty of tractors, augers... even the shell of an old combine that I rode on with my grandmother while we bagged fescue seed. And what we don't have, I'm sure Daddy can round up.

Yes, we're physically fit enough to do the hard jobs (hard headed enough, too).

I'll see what other numbers I can find out

If it will help you any, I can post some pics if you tell me what you want to see. Cows, fields...

Thanks again!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach, there are specific characteristics of cattle that best adapt to rotational grazing. Do you think your family would consider phasing from some of those you have to a more specific animal? I highly recommend that your brood cows weigh no more than 1100 pounds, preferably 1050, and be of medium frame size. These cows need to be moderate milk producers. There are good reasons for this, mainly smaller cows and moderate milkers are more economical to feed. It is a fact, some just refuse to acknowledge the known truth. Keep an open mind while I explain. An acre of forage will carry just so many pounds of animals. Whether you are aware or not you are marketing grass. You may produce calves but in reality you are a grass farmer. The same land that may support 10 each 1600 pound big mommas will carry 15 each 1050 lb each smaller cows. With a 90% survival rate the big momma cows will send 9 calves to the sale. Yes those 9 calves will be heavier. However, the little mommas will at 90% survival produce 13 plus calves. A side note, smaller breeds usually reach sexual maturity earlier and can calve by their 2nd birthday. Those 13 calves on good forage will weigh more than the 9 big calves. The significant advantage is that the little mommas dig not eat anymore than the 9 biggies. Your carrying capacity and the production thereof has suddenly increased significantly. What did not increase is the price of fertilizer, the property tax on the farm, the machinery costs, the work load, etc. We will call that the cost of production. What did increase is the number of pounds of meat sold. If the biggie calves were profitable then the number of additional pounds from the larger headcount little cows calves become more profitable. If the price of calves drops and the biggies just break even the additional pounds from the higher headcount little cows calves is still profitable. In difficult times some profit is still better than no profit. Your thoughts? PS.....here is a pic of the type animals I am promoting. The parent stock of these came from the sale barn.


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## godsgapeach

Yes, Agman. We're open to culling out some of our bigger breeds to head in the rotational direction. That's actually encouraging to me since one of my "pets" is a small no-name brand that's about the size you mentioned. She's getting up in years, but still calves twice a year and almost always has a bull calf. When I go out and whistle she romps across the pasture like a dog.

There are others about her size in the mix.

What else do you suggest?
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Early on you mentioned growing different forages for different times of year grazing. I am going to recommend that instead of reworking and replanting that you salvage the fescue pastures you have. I would like to know how many acres are predominantly in fescue? I would like to know if you have any bottom land that is wet in the summer? Do you have shed storage for hay? How many round bales? Do you use the chicken litter for your pastures? Is the litter from a layer or broiler operation? Once you answer these questions I will need some time to think this through. Realize, if this was super simple everyone would be doing it. I am still waiting on how many forage producing acres do you have? PS....How many days are you now feeding hay through the Winter?


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## godsgapeach

Ok, I've gotten the answers to your questions I think. 

There are about 175 acres in the main pastures with an additional 25 or so in bottom land--not necessarily "wet" but pretty fertile. Daddy has been fertilizing with the broiler litter once or twice a year.

I'm not sure exactly how many round bales he ended up with this year, but it's enough to feed 5 bales every other day beginning sometime in November and they'll last through spring greening.

I also found out that before the market crashed the calves were selling for $.90-1.10 per pound, but recently they brought .50-.60.

I'm sure I missed something, but I hope this helps. Thanks for helping us out!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Broiler letter is not as potent as layer litter but it remains a wonderful fertilizer. You are fortunate to have access to the litter with the price of commercial fertilizer having risen so high. Layer litter offsets the need for lime but not so with broiler. Therefore you need to get the soil Ph checked ASAP. We need the whole farms forage producing acreage above 5.8. Lime takes time to break down and so this needs to be addressed now. Does the farm co op Southern States cover your area? They or a similar co op should offer a GPS layout of the farm, dividing the fields down to 12 to 25 acre sizes with a professional soil sampling. The fee may run around $500 but it is worth the price. You can use this tool to track various practices that you perform such a fertilizing, liming, pasture paddock layout, water planning, communicating with others, long range farm acreage utilization, etc. You mentioned that you had trees growing in some places and I interpreted you though they were a possible negative. They are definitely a plus as long as the herd in not under one when lightning strikes it. Shade is very important for use as rotational grazers. Have you ever heard people reference that they wanted light colored or brahma influence because "those cows will be out there eating in the heat of the day". That IMO is totally unsubstantiated nonsense! A cow can eat in quality pasture during two each 45 minute times periods in 24 hours all she needs*. She has nothing better to do than to dine early in the morning and late in the evening. In the interim periods I want her efficiently digesting the forage. I want her chewing her cud and resting and not wasting energy in the heat of the day. *We will use this fact to establish the amount of area allocated to feed your herd when you start rotational grazing. You referenced a herd count or 150 animals, I assume this is a mix of sizes since I have learned you also calve year round. Your grown heifers and brood cows must be numbering around 85 to 95, is this about right? Regardless, I predict that you can carry 116 momma cows. Now here is what should impress your dad since he is the one doing all the hay. I am confident that barring drought, you can do this year round Without Any Hay. So now calculate how much the hay is costing and move that to your pocket! Include the fuel, machinery costs, time lost that other tasks could be done, time and expense of feeding, hot sweaty unhealthy heat stress of putting up hay, risk of fire, riding the tractor in inclement weather trying to feed, stress on the cattle as a timid cow tries to eat and a boss cow keeps knocking her about, inability of the calves to compete and the fact that the hay only has 2/3 rds the nutritional quality of the stockpiled fescue. The fertile bottom will be reserved to produce forage for mid July to late August. With the litter you have ask your dad what will give the maximum growth and regrowth during this time period. An annual would be OK as this area could be replanted to something such as annual rye as a safety net for late winter grazing. You dad is probably applying the litter as it is available, ask him is it possible to schedule the houses to some extent for mid to late August. I know this is an unconventional time period to apply fertilizer but there is unrecognized merit in doing so. Here in the South we start getting night dew in that time frame. We will not let the cattle eat the grass into the ground. We want 3 inches of top growth always. This 3 inches of top growth coupled with the night dew will start growing fescue! We will then get a head start for Winter feed and we will get a jump on Fall growth. This combination will grow surplus grass for current consumption and reduce the amount of area grazed. Reducing the area grazed will create more of the 175 acres to be reserved for growing the fescue we will be stockpiling for Winter. We are going to stop the feeding hay practice in Nov and will graze growing grass until the end of Dec. I go until mid Dec but you have a milder climate. I have a 90 day period to feed stockpiled fescue in a mild year. In a harsh year I may have to go 115 days. There is minimal reason for concern however as the initially grazed Dec stockpiled grass has regrown some on the warm days and we also have the 25 acres in the bottom. : ) An application of litter in early to mid March will give an early boost to the fescue coming out of dormancy. If you apply too much litter you will have to make some hay or just bushhog the top off the fescue. I bushhog as I want the fertility to remain instead of it leaving in the form of hay. A bale of hay at todays fertilizer price is said to have $42 worth of nutrient in it. Pass this by your dad and brother and give me their unedited opinions. I can only counter their arguments if I fully understand their reservations.


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## agmantoo

If you were to move to all black cattle I am of the opinion the price per pound will increase around 10 cents. Review the sale slips and compare the income from the black calves to the others. Selling 40 to 50 thousand pounds of calves per year this will make a noticeable difference. It all adds up to more profit and that is the goal.


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## godsgapeach

We do have a Southern States in town (at one time it was just called the Co-op but it was Gold Kist then). We've also got a friend in the extension office. I think we'll see which can get the soil tests back quickest.

Chicken litter can pretty much be spread any season within the 6-7 week turnaround. I know it has usually been spread in March (had a wedding shower at our house in March one year and the litter had just been put out--made for an aromatic event!), and at least once later in the year.

Yes, the herds are mixes of sizes/ages, and your guess of mamas to calves is probably pretty accurate.

I didn't tell you they're divided into 3 herds. The largest is in the pasture that stretches from my house to my folks'--about 110 acres. That herd is the most people friendly, and that's the pasture with bottom land access. The 2nd herd is across the road near my brother's house on about 45 acres--they're getting more people friendly. And the 3rd is smaller and on about 22 acres--rarely around people. 

We've pretty much been given the go-ahead to try whatever we want (within reason, of course), and nothing you've mentioned has been objectionable so far ;->. I don't know how comfortable Daddy will be without doing all the hay, but there are another 45 or so acres that aren't in the pasture acreage that have always been designated for hay--so they don't take away from the rotation. And he can always sell the excess. The bales are good enough for horse quality, so that's always a plus.

I also haven't mentioned that there is quite a bit of thistle we're always battling (Daddy is certified to spray, but we'd like to eventually eliminate that--hopefully balancing pH will help...), and there are an overabundance of young persimmon trees. They're as hard to eliminate as thistle! They just get bushhogged usually.

Thanks for your willingness to make suggestions!
Godsgapeach


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## godsgapeach

One other quick question (probably a dumb one) but: What do you mean by "stockpiled" fescue? 
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Stockpiled fescue is what we are going to grow using the chicken litter applied in August. Then we will save the stockpiled fescue to rotational graze going through the winter. We will also boost the growth in the spring for grazing during the summer. The stockpiled fescue will be the replacement feed that the cows will harvest instead of your dad making hay from the fescue pastures and then having to redistribute back to the cattle in bad nasty cold wet weather. As for the weeds and other trash growing in the pastures. When we use good management practices for the pastures and and rotate the animals to where they cannot damage the desirable plants and we control the trash by choking out the undesirable by properly managing the grass growth and by timely bushhogging. We will not need a lot of herbicide. It will take 3 years to get the trash under control but it will still be far less work and expense than what you are doing now. Keep deeply imbedded in your minds that we are in a marathon to get to be the lowest cost producer. We want to achieve this goal by working smarter, not harder. Do you see any thistle in this stockpile fescue? any persimmons ? This paddock has not been sprayed and has not been fertilized, other than cow droppings, in 3 years.


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## godsgapeach

That was what I was thinking. Thanks for clarifying.

Just checking, but did you see my post before the stockpiling question?
Thanks
Godsgapeach


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## wstevenl

I think that Salatin, Greg Judy, etc. would say that it would be very advantageous for you to eventually get all the cattle in one big herd. This will cut down on labor, only moving one herd per day. But it also seems to have a better effect on the pasture and the herd to have a larger number of cattle, creating a mob grazing situation. Salatin says that to mob graze like he is now you really need 200 head. I'm going to do the best I can with 16 this year, and last year I did the best I could with 8, but the larger the number the better it seems to work. Salatin, and Greg Judy both talk about how their "mobs" behavior changed when they got into the swing of things, recognizing that they better eat while there is something to eat, and that they can depend on the farmer to give them a new paddock everyday. They stay very calm. 

My pastures were newly planted last spring so I stopped grazing in late Oct. this year but, boy, I can't wait to get them back out there this spring!!! Moving the cows after my day job is the best part of my day (except of course being with my wife and baby).


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## godsgapeach

I haven't heard of Judy, wstevenl--I'll have to check into him. Thanks for the info.
Godsgapeach


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## wstevenl

He's really good. He does mostly "custom grazing" of other people's cattle and he's now raising hair sheep too. He's got a couple of books. I forgot to tell you, Salatin's "Salad Bar Beef" is good but he's changed some of his methods since it was written. He's now taking more and more of his herd through the winter with no hay, and is letting the grass mature more before they graze it instead of trying to keep everything in the "lush-tasty" stage. 

Since you're in Georgia, you may want to check out www.naturesharmonyfarm.com They are starting their second year of pasture based farming and have around 40 head rotating their pastures, plus sheep, poultry, etc.


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## godsgapeach

I've read some of Nature's Harmony's blog. We might have to try and visit them sometime since they're not but about 1 1/2 hours from here.

We're also interested in the multi-species system they're using, but of course improving the pastures is the first priority.
Thanks!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
Yes I did read your other post and I responded to the thistle and persimmons. I did not reply to the rest of the post as I thought that I may be clouding the rotational grazing conversion discussion. Not only do we need to combine the herd, we need to reallocate the use of the acreage across the road. The 22 acres herd needs to definitely be absorbed elsewhere and that land put to alternate use provided it is suitable. How difficult is it to access the 45 acres side of the road if you wanted to move cattle from one side to another? I have no idea if the tracts are separated by a country lane or an interstate. I am confident that I can net more profit from the large tract with the large herd than you are now realizing with the 3 herds. We can cull and get the "right size" cows. We can get the pastures in top condition and carry more cows than you are carrying in the largest herd. We can eliminate the dependency on hay and avoid the expenses associated with the hay. You can have the acreage on the 45 and 22 acres for alternate use or seasonally fatten cattle from outside your herd there during times of heavy growth. You, your brother and dad must learn the process, want it to work and believe it will work. I am here to help with any issues. You will have to accept my inputs on face value. I apply everything I am proposing. Like a cow chain, I have been dragged through all the carp. I know it will work.


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## godsgapeach

Thankfully the road is small, but we'd probably be better off moving the 22 acre herd in the trailer otherwise we'd be trying to flush them out of somebody else's forest property.

Right now we're checking with a friend of my brother's who is some type of soil specialist to find out how to best get the soil checked.

Thanks again for all the input.
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Are you indirectly saying that the 45 acre herd can be walked across the road? We need to start putting a plan together and to set some goals. Let me know when you are ready to move forward. Some of the tasks can be done simultaneously. I can provide pics of any of the procedures associated with rotational grazing within my herd should you need to "see" anything.


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## godsgapeach

Sorry--yes, the 2nd largest herd can walk straight across. The others are more challenging. 

I'm hoping my brother can get registered here and put his 2 cents worth in so you'll know what we're both thinking. He had some trouble last night for some reason and hasn't gotten on yet...

He just let me know that his soil specialist friend is also able to map the paddocks with her GPS.
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

I would not expect you to have to cross onto the 45 acres more than 4 times in a year. Utilizing the 45 acres will let you keep the herd headcount and possibly increase it if desired. Until your brother can post he is able to read our conversations isn't he?


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## godsgapeach

Got the soil tests dropped by the Extension office today. Now it's just hurry up and wait. 

How many acres per paddock do you suggest? How many head per paddock?

Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

The process doesn't work exactly like that. We want the most efficient method for both man and beast. For the beast we need a layout where the cattle do not have to go more than 800 feet for water if possible. For man or woman we want a layout that is conducive to equipment efficiency, practical in terms of time utilization and that will protect the farm from erosion and will be nearly self sustainable. The entire process needs to be so simple that the first visitor that sees the operation will say to himself "why didn't I think of that?". I will post more later.


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## gtme1996

Alright, I was FINALLY allowed to register here. Agman, many thanks for your advice-we really do appreciate it.

Would you suggest our next move to be mapping our pastures in order to lay out paddocks? Water access could be somewhat of a challenge. We re-fenced the perimeter of our property and limited creek access to one or two points per pasture in an effort to minimize fecal matter in the water.


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## agmantoo

welcome aboard! Am I correct in assuming that you are godsgapeach's brother?


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## gtme1996

That I am. Hate that it tooked me so long to post but it seems the forum took issue with one my email addresses. They finally accepted the one I thought them least likely to take. Better late than never I guess.


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## agmantoo

Laying out the paddocks from a remote location is most difficult. For now, the best thing may be to get an aerial pic and make a lot of copies. We know that the cattle must be watered. Initially, continuing to use the creek is probably the best bet until you get some first hand experience doing the rotational grazing. The only way that I know to do this is to have some designated lanes. All internal paddock partitions and lanes will be nothing more than a single strand of high tensile wire on minimal posts. The wire along the lanes will also carry the fence charger power for distribution throughout the farm. The polywire will pick up its power from the lane wire and the nearby paddock wire. As stated previously, the most ideal paddocks IMO are those that are rectangular. These lanes I mentioned will give the cattle access to the paddocks. No gates will be used! The single strand of high tensile wire will simply be lifted and the cattle will walk under it. The long rectangles will be reduced to smaller paddocks for grazing by the use of polywire and temporary press in place by foot posts. The lanes will also be used for you to travel over the farm to check on the cattle and to move them to new grazing along with equipment for attending to the paddocks. This will avoid compacting the soil thus encouraging quality plant growth. The lanes will be grassed also and can be grazed. I do not think that I have conveyed the process adequately. I have pictures of much of my operation. If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will attempt to restate the setup in my responses.


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## jtsummie

Thanks guys for posting this instead of PM I'm learning alot just listening in!!


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## agmantoo

jtsummie, if I fail to make a clear statement in passing along info please ask for clarification and feel free to ask for additional inputs. I do not type very fast and this small window makes proof reading difficult. I edit my messages after posting as information is often lost if one strays.


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## godsgapeach

I'm trying to visualize what you're saying, Agmantoo. Do you mean you have permanent rectangular paddocks that you divide into smaller grazing areas with portable step-in pigtails? 

I'm still not sure how we're going to incorporate the creek. It's farther than 800 feet from anywhere except the bottomland. There's a pond in the 45 acres across the road and we might be able to rig a pump system... or from a well. We're going to have to put our heads together on that--I think that's a bigger challenge than mapping out the paddocks (for me anyway).

I'm reading Bill Murphy's Greener Pastures... Voisin Management Intensive Grazing right now and he addresses some of that issue, but we've got to figure out what will work best for our animals and us.

I saw a plan that had water at the center and the small grazing areas fanned off away from it (http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/nd870-3-8.pdf). Just trying to check any possible options...

Thanks as always for your help!
Godsgapeach


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## wstevenl

As a general idea, consider using long strips that can easily be divided with polywire and the step in / pigtail posts. We have done this with two long strips and we use 3 polywires on reels to make a front and back wire and the third is used to make another front fence to move them into. This way the back wire is reeled in and moved to the front each day.


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## agmantoo

What wsteven said. I want you to consider how to divide the farm into manageable long narrow strips if at all feasible. Have the farmer in the family to make this call. You are attempting to get strips that can be efficient bush hogged, litter scattered, baled, etc, turning only twice. Then running parallet or perpendicular to these rectangles I want you to have lanes going to water. At this juncture, until you get some experience I do not care if the cattle are walking 1200 to 1600ft or there about to get water. It is too soon to install permanent water distribution. I prefer for you to have the lanes running parallel to the rectangular strips but nothing is chiseled into stone. With proper planning you could have rectangular paddock, lane, rectangular paddock, rectangular paddock, lane, rectangular paddock resulting with I I_I I I_I I At the end of any long rectangular paddock you could make a lane and feed to another lane somewhat like a secondary road teeing into a main road. Just think of how a town road system is laid out. In our case we just want all roads/lanes to lead to water. You could even make an oversize lane and later when you do install water convert the oversize lane to a paddock. It is much easier and cheaper to plan on paper than to try to reroute later. I have an aerial photo of my place but at this time I do not know how to get it onto this site. It will show my lanes but will not show the paddocks. I will work on this. Meanwhile. I have to go back to work. I am on late lunch now. If I am unclear just ask whatever and I will reply tonight.


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## Slugmar

I have started reading this thread and found it intresting and now have Acouple question.

You stated

I highly recommend that your brood cows weigh no more than 1100 pounds, preferably 1050, and be of medium frame size. These cows need to be moderate milk producers. There are good reasons for this, mainly smaller cows and moderate milkers are more economical to feed. It is a fact, some just refuse to acknowledge the known truth. Keep an open mind while I explain. An acre of forage will carry just so many pounds of animals. Whether you are aware or not you are marketing grass. You may produce calves but in reality you are a grass farmer. The same land that may support 10 each 1600 pound big mommas will carry 15 each 1050 lb each smaller cows.

Around my area we have always gone by 1 cow/calf per acre. but here you are stating lbs per acrea. You mention 15 cows each at 1050 lbs. So how many lbs can 1 acre sustain ?

can the above method be used on a different type of animal IE goats ?


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## agmantoo

Slugmar, a cow in good body condition and not stressed by adverse energy consuming weather needs approximately 3% of its body weight in good protein and high total digestible nutrient per day. I disregard the animal per acre rule of thumb as no two acres produce the same quantity and quality and no two cows convert grass to its needs the same. If my herd rushes onto new paddocks I interpret that as they are hungry and I allocate more stockpiled fescue. If the herd has not consumed the previous days allocation, I cut back. Going into the Fall I realize that I need enough of stockpiled grass to feed for not less that 90 days and up to 115 days. I know nothing about goats.


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## agmantoo

This is the best that I can do regarding the aerial view. Although this is recent, it is not totally accurate. Hopefully you can ascertain what is going on to some degree. Ask your questions and I will attempt to answer them. You will notice the "dogleg" main lane and some additional lanes that lead to the main lane. One lane is missing. I cannot alter this pic as the original is a pdf and I simply opened the file on my monitor and with my cell phone took a pic.


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## godsgapeach

That helps a lot, Agmantoo. I'm terrible at visualizing--you have to draw me a map ... literally. I'll see what I can do about getting a link to an aerial pic of our grazing area so you can see what we're up against.

These are your large paddocks that you subdivide as necessary right? 
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Those are the large sections that I subdivide into rectangular paddocks where permissible. This farm is rolling hills. The paddocks run in many directions but I always try to make them as long as possible. To give you an idea of paddock size, F3, the strip to the far right is actually 2 paddocks running North to South. I am in process of converting 3 smaller paddocks into one very long one at this time. I am glad you are now viewing the concept.


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## harplade

I have a question for agmantoo about this grazing system. We are moving to the rotational grazing system=have several paddocks and move the animals around-but still have alot to learn. here's my question, the LSU Ag people told us we need to use a renovator on our pastures to loosen the soil and help the nutrients get down into the soil instead of running off. Is this necessary b/c of the area we live in with alot of clay in the soil or can we do something to prevent this necessity? Our fields are not beautiful and lush and we're noticing that small dips and pockets in the fields have lovely grass but the majority is yellower and not tender. Our conclusion is that the water is not soaking in b/c the ground is too hard. We have 10 acres and rotate 4 cows, two horses, 8-10 goats, couple of pigs. We have hair sheep, too but so far we haven't been able to convince them to get into the rotation.

Thanks


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## agmantoo

harplade,
IMO, you cannot get to where you want to go with the existing setup.. You have too many animals and/or not enough acres. There is not enough time between rotations for the paddocks to recover. It is nearly impossible with the array of animals to leave a paddock with 3 inches of growth remaining. You are stressing what grass is there to the point it can hardy survive if it is. Here is your situation.... The grass cannot recover, the ground gets trampled excessively because some animal is almost always on it, particularly when wet and the clay compresses, your Winters are too mild to break the packed clay and Iowa State determined years ago that pasture renovators are not justifiable to pull. The renovator use concept sounds great and I almost bought one until I did the research. Horse traffic on pasture is very damaging, pigs will root until they destroy the support system of the forage. Put the pigs in a pen, the horses in a corral (you are feeding them anyway), reduce the goats to two and I know nothing about hair sheep but I imagine they can eat to the dirt so confine them if that is true and you can start rotational grazing. Plant the paddocks to a deep rooting year around growing forage that will have a long root system. The roots will destroy the hard pan over time, the reduced and rotated livestock will let the forage flourish and you will have 3 inches or more of residual grass that can recover through photosynthesis when the animals are rotated off for at least 3 weeks or longer. Wish that I had a more favorable reply but I am being truthful.


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## godsgapeach

Ok, here's the link to an aerial of the farm. Let me know if it helps or if it needs to be zoomed in some. The 2 hayfields on this side of town are marked in yellow, and a general idea of the grazing areas is marked in light green. 

http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/godsgapeach/?action=view&current=grazingandhaymarked.jpg

Let me know if you have questions
Godsgapeach


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## wstevenl

I hate to disagree but ... 
I would look forward to rotating hair sheep along with our small herd of cattle. Greg Judy does high density rotational grazing with cattle and hair sheep (St. Croix) I think they are separate though. I do choose to keep my horses on a dry lot most of the time though and I wouldn't want to deal with making a goat proof fence everyday to move goats to. I believe that Judy has his St. Croix sheep trained to 2 polywire fence. For keeping them in with cattle... I've heard that they can develop a bond with cattle and will tend to stay with the cattle herd even if they can get out of a temporary fence.


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## agmantoo

You are not disagreeing with me, just voicing your position which you are certainly entitled to do. I stated that I know nothing about hair sheep and I do not even have an idea of their use or if they have any commercial value. Possibly I need some hair sheep.


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## wstevenl

In November I saw Greg Judy speak at a small farm conference. If I remember correctly, he's only had sheep for a few years and he started with a number of breeds. He didn't worm, just have them good pasture, minerals and salt. After a while the St. Croix sheep were nearly the only ones left. He said if he had to worm them to keep them alive, he didn't want them. I think he said that he direct markets the lambs for meat and sells them for 125 each. The buyer pays for processing. When you consider twins and triplets, that's quite a bit of money in lamb/year. I wish I had all those talks on video.. I'm sure I missed alot.


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## Trisha in WA

I just found this thread and have been very interested to see how it's going.
I have about 2 -2.5 acres in pasture and have 2 horses and a dairy cow. My cow is due to calve in Feb and I will be adding a bottle calf. I would like start an appropriate rotation for their grazing. Right now the horses are kept separate from the cow and have the run of 2/3 of the pasture. My thoughts are to bring the stock into corrals at night and graze during the day...especially since I have to bring the cow in for milking twice a day anyway. The horses will be kept separate from the cows to keep the cows safe.
I would like to hear suggestions on how this can work. It seems like I will need lanes to move everyone too and from the barn/corrals, but that also seems like it would use too much of the needed space for paddocks.


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## agmantoo

Provided the cow is broke to lead there should not be a problem. One roll of polywire and a dozen step in pig tail posts and a small fence charger should put you one your way. Attempt to determine where you may have shade and can place water. Each morning walk the cow to the paddock she is to graze and each evening walk her back to where she will spend the night. Paddock size will be determined by you each trip. Give her enough area that it will take her 2 each 45 minute periods to consume the grass down to 3 inches tall each day. Since your cow will be supporting 2 calves I expect you will be giving her some grain, is that correct?


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
Do the chicken houses have their own well or does the water get piped from the farmstead?
Where are the cattle sorted and loaded for shipment, at the farmstead?
Currently is the hay stored under shelter at the farmstead?


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## godsgapeach

There is an extra well at the chicken houses that is not being used for the chicken houses. I can't remember how many gallons/minute it gets though. We used it this past summer to water across the road when the pond almost dried up during the drought. 

There is a sorting lot in each of the pastures, but the main board lot is to the left of the chicken houses (you can faintly see the drive). Right at the road near the board lot is an OLD bored well--don't know what it would take to get it in working order again. Straight across from that is the gate into the 45 acre field (and that lot is right at the gate). 

Our hay sits out at the edges of the hayfields, not under shelter.

More questions?

Thanks for spending so much time on our questions!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Are those chicken houses 420 ft long?
You are going to need 4500 gallons of water per day in hot weather.


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## godsgapeach

They are 400 feet long.

The 4500 is where the challenge lies. Got to get it from somewhere, and it can be done. We've just got to do some figuring. I need to find out if any of the bored wells can still produce or if we'd be better off having one drilled. But even though Daddy hasn't given us a budget, I'd rather not hit him with a huge expense right off the bat if we can avoid it. I know our drilled one (at the house in the far right of the pasture) hit a spring or something at only 150 feet and gets at least 10 gpm.

The chicken houses are actually on city water so they're not competing with the cows.
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Here is my very rough first suggestion for the layout. The green color(s) is for paddocks and they are too wide as I had to do this free hand. I know you have a permanent perimeter fence and the green color sometimes over laps the permanent fence. The black is the suggested lanes. The darker blue is water and the round globs are for the drinkers. I am trying to get cattle to the catch area, to water, to shade and to move them around the farm. Water could be in the lane and I think they would be within the 800 ft distance most of the time. For now the cattle could be given access to the woods and they make their way to water. I also want tractor access for bush hogging and for litter spreading. I cannot distinguish the natural streams very well from the aerial. Review this with the family and comment.


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## godsgapeach

Will do! Thanks
Godsgapeach


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## Trisha in WA

agmantoo said:


> Provided the cow is broke to lead there should not be a problem. One roll of polywire and a dozen step in pig tail posts and a small fence charger should put you one your way. Attempt to determine where you may have shade and can place water. Each morning walk the cow to the paddock she is to graze and each evening walk her back to where she will spend the night. Paddock size will be determined by you each trip. Give her enough area that it will take her 2 each 45 minute periods to consume the grass down to 3 inches tall each day. Since your cow will be supporting 2 calves I expect you will be giving her some grain, is that correct?


The calves will be bottle fed and when they are weaned then they will go into the rotation. But she is a 3/4 Jersey/ 1/4 Holstein and will be getting milked twice a day. Yes she is halter broke too..that does help. She will be fed beet pulp and a very small amount of grain (keeping a close eye on her condition and adjusting accordingly). I do feed hay year round at this point, and figure I will need to continue on some level...perhaps during the overnight period. Our grass at this point leaves a lot to be desired, so if it doesn't seem to hold up, I will continue with AM and PM hay.
I don't have any shade in the pastures at all. In the heat of summer, I would probably switch the rotation to put them out and night and in during the day so they can get out of the summer heat.
Do you have any suggestions on how to fit the horses into the rotation?

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me. Getting this right is really important to me.
Trisha


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## agmantoo

Trisha in WA 
Since you are in Washington I would think you would have extremely good hay and an ample amount of it. Horses are abusive of pasture IMO and the only way I know to keep the damage down is to give them limited access. Permitting them to graze for an hour of so and put them back in their dedicated area. Your plan for the cow is sound and well thought out and should please you when implemented. Since the bulk of the fescue seed sown here comes from Oregon/Washington I am guessing that fescue will grow at your location. That would be my choice for the cow and depending where you are it should be ideal for Winter stockpiling with its high protein content. I am only familiar with the Portland climate and I know how varied the weather can be in your state. We drop into the 20's here and occasionally into the the teens. The fescue is my mainstay and my cattle graze it year round and it holds up. Lots of horse people do not like pregnant mares on fescue but I have a friend that is into saddlebreds and he has grazed fescue with his horses for years with no noticeable ill effects. He does keep his pastures clipped and none of the grass goes to seed. good luck.


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## harplade

agmantoo-thanks for the suggestions about the renovator. 
As I think someone mentioned, the hair sheep are for food-and I definitely need to see Greg Judy's video b/c we have not been successful at training them to the hot wire. We're going to try with the female babies this year. 
What is a deep rooted grass? I believe we can grow chicory here. We currently have some Bermuda but mostly Bahia. We planted peas in one paddock this year for finishing off a couple of cows. They grew well. We were planning on throwing some wheat out to see if it would grow if it was top sown.
Thanks for your input-
as I may have mentioned, there doesn't seem to be much of this type of style of grazing here in La. Mostly farmers grow them out with the abundance of summer grass, some plant rye for the winter and hay them. Of course, our Bahia grows sporadically all winter, especially in a mild winter so they can eat that also.


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## agmantoo

You may want read this information. The fescue referenced in the article is specifically for your area and is suppose to not have the endophyte problem. To date, the fescues that I know of that are endophyte free are not hardy. Personally I would add some regular Ky 31 common fescue to see if I could get it to adapt to the area.
http://www.gsdc.com/GA 5 FESCUE.html

This is a copy and paste of why I would add the Ky31. Read closely and you will see the negatives and what positives exists for both infected and non infected fescues.
The objective of this study was to evaluate the performance of growing cattle when intensively grazing stockpiled endophyte-infected (E+), endophyte-free (E-) and non-toxic endophyte-infected (EN) tall fescue during the winter. The experiment was conducted over 5 consecutive winters. In each year, plots (1 ha each, 4 per treatment) were harvested for hay in August, fertilized in September and forage was allowed to accumulate until grazing was initiated in early December. Each year, 48 Angus-cross tester cattle (4 per plot) were given a daily allotment of forage, under strip-grazing (frontal grazing) management, with a target residual height of 5 cm. Steers were used the first year, and heifers were used in subsequent years. The grazing periods for determination of pasture ADG were 86 d (yr 1), 70 d (yr 2), 86 d (yr 3), 72 d (yr 4), and 56 d (yr 5). Pasture ADG of cattle did not differ among treatments (P = 0.13) and were 0.51, 0.59, and 0.56 kg/d (SEM 0.03) for E+, E-, and EN, respectively. Serum prolactin concentrations of heifers grazing E+ were lower (P < 0.05) than those grazing E- and EN during all years except yr 2. In yr 2, E+ and E- did not differ (P = 0.11). Serum prolactin of heifers grazing E- and EN did not differ (P > 0.20) except in yr 4. During yr 4, serum prolactin of heifers grazing E- was greater (P = 0.05) than that of those grazing EN. Serum urea-N concentrations (SUN) tended to differ among treatments (P = 0.10) and there was a treatment by year interaction (P = 0.05). During yr 1 through 3, SUN did not differ (P > 0.15) among treatments. However, as the stands aged, E- had a greater invasion of other plant species which increased the CP content of the sward, thus causing heifers grazing E- during yr 5 to have greater (P < 0.01) SUN than heifers grazing E+ and EN, which did not differ (P = 0.89). Forage disappearance (DM basis) did not differ (P = 0.75) among treatments and was 4.7, 4.7, and 5.0 kg/animal daily (SEM 0.27) for E+, E-, and EN, respectively. Gain per ha was greater (P = 0.04) for E+ (257 kg) than for E- (220 kg) or EN (228 kg). In most years, animal grazing days on E+ was greater than E- and EN. However, in yr 5, animal grazing days did not differ (P > 0.20) among treatments. The use of stockpiled E+ as a source of low cost winter feed is a viable option for producers, whereas grazing of EN may be more beneficial during the spring and fall when more severe negative effects of ergot alkaloids have been observed.


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## Trisha in WA

I agree that horses are very hard on pastures, mostly because they like to run and tear it up. I will keep working on a plan for them, but as you said, I think the plan for the cows ought to work pretty well.
Yes, I do have access to wonderful hay, though it is expensive, it is worth it. 
I live in western WA, but we do get temps down into the teens (and low teens even) during the winter somewhat often. 
I wonder if you have a different suggestion for grass other than fescue. It does seem somewhat controversial and I just haven't decided yet how I personally feel about it. Some of the pasture mixes we have avail have KY blue grass and different clovers. I can't think of what else is normally in the mix, but I will look into it.
Thank you for your help.


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## agmantoo

Until convinced otherwise I will remain an advocate for endophyte infected fescue. I interplant clovers, mostly of the ladino family and I do not have a problem. I truly like the high protein and TDN of the frost bit fescue. I do have some Ky bluegrass and it is great. I just cannot find a forage with the staying power of Ky31 through drought or flood, year after year. I can and will change my mind, I am not against change. I just cannot find a better alternate.


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## crisco41

Awsome thread...thanks for sharing.


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## agmantoo

Today was cold for us. I have 60 to 75 days remaining that require stockpiled fescue for feed. Those interested in rotational grazing may find the attached pics informative as you can see the condition of the grass and you can see the condition of the various aged animals consuming only grass. Some of the animals are passing loose manure due to the richness of the forage even this late into the non growing season. Breeding stock of both sexes that are accustomed to grain feed will not hold the bloom exhibited when placed on grass alone nor will heavy milkers. Smaller framed animals also hold up better than large ones.
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/mid Jan09/?albumview=slideshow


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## godsgapeach

Here are some pics of what we're dealing with. I took these one day last week--some cows, some pasture...

http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/godsgapeach/

Hey, Agmantoo, what's the best plan for finding the "right size" cows? 

Thanks
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Last night I prepared a thought out and what I thought was a non offensive reply. The site refused to load the reply and then over night I lost power on the computer so the reply was lost. This reply will hit the high spots and I hope to not offend anyone.

1 You have a wonderful farm that is not utilized and is nowhere near as profitable as it could be. It could be a show place and as rewarding as a farm could be. PS...I would not know what to do with all the flat ground.

2 The cattle are representing what the ag people promoted, big cows and increased production. Increased production and increased profit are not conjoined twins.

3 Your cattle are not what the market is willing to pay top dollar for. You need to supply what the customer wants.

4 If the cattle were mine I would start a non emotional culling. On the large acreage side of the road I would keep only the black or black baldy producing cattle that show no brahma influence. I would buy 2 grass raised  frame 4 or 5 black Angus bulls with genetics for small birth weight and moderate milking. All steers and most heifers would be sold as they are produced. Heifers that reach 750 lbs at 15 months would be bred and I would expect a calf when the heifer is 24 months old. Any heifer that has not had a calf by 26 months old would be marked for selling. It is essential to have heifers that cycle at 15 months. Your current stock is IMO reaching sexual maturity nearer 30 plus months of age. You cannot make up for the lost opportunity. Any heifer that requires assistance birthing at 24 months would be culled, no exception. If the opportunity surfaces to buy some grass raised heifers/cows you could hurry to conversion by purchasing some mature animals. Our objective remains to have mature cows at 4 years old that weigh 1050 to 1100 lbs maximum. Remember you are going to be able to increase your herd size significantly.

5 I honestly expect your net profit to increase 300 plus percent. As I stated previously the printed cost to keep a cow exceed $300 and the net income from a calf according to the extension agent is less than $75. It is hardy worth the effort and risk. At 90 cents per lb for a 550 lb feeder calf that would result in $495 gross. If you can lower your carry costs for a cow/calf pair, excluding land, to less than $100 that would give you $395 per steer calf produced. This is achievable, even exceedable with the availability of the chicken litter. Boost this return with the increased carrying capacity through reduced brood cow size and you recognize another substantial gain in net profit.

6 It will take a commitment to achieve this but you have the resources. Within a 2 to 3 year period the pastures, forages and the rotational grazing should be in place and yielding the desired results. Within 4 to 5 years the cattle herd should be genetically near where you want it. Thereafter, the ride should be smooth, routine and most of all profitable in whatever market that prevails.


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## godsgapeach

Don't worry, Agmantoo. You have not offended. Based on what you had already stated was "the goal," you pretty much said what I expected. (except that I hadn't made assumptions about profit--I don't like guessing where $$ is concerned, and I certainly couldn't make an educated estimate).

The bulls are actually smaller framed Angus (there are 4). I know there's quite a bit of culling to do otherwise. There are very few that I'm attached to so that won't be too difficult.

It's just frustrating to me that the "powers that be" offer PLAN A as THE plan to follow, but rather than benefitting the farmer, farm (or animals), it flounders along until the next "NEW and IMPROVED" gimick comes along. It's a bit like public schools, but that's another thing for a different thread... It's just a shame when we're paying for all that research, then when the advice is followed, we pay for that too!

How would you suggest we begin to replace the herd? Where to look for the size/type we want?

I know it's going to be a long process converting, but I know it will be worth it. Daddy's worked his butt off for what we've got and he's just encouraged that we're interested enough to jump in the boat with him. (His Mama always apologized that the land/farm was all the inheritance he'd get.)

I'm excited about the potential it has! We've just got some work to do! My head is swimming with all the information since I'm steadily reading about grazing, setting up paddocks, and trying to think logically through what to do next. Plus gtme1996 and I are going to the SSAWG conference next weekend. I'm heading up Thursday to catch a Pasture Management mini course and then a full two-days of more information after that... If any of it sinks in, I'll be dangerous!

Thanks again for all your help!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach
My circumstances are different than yours as I am a one person operation. Knowing my situation and risk tolerance I would take a path that most may not. I would go to a sale where I could buy a pen of preconditioned heifer feeder calves and I would buy not less than 50 heifers weighing in the 600 lb range if I could find them. I would bring them home and put them on grass and when they reach the 750 lb range I would introduce the bulls. In 9 months I would be rotational grazing the cows and their calves. The cows and their calves that do not meet my expectation would be sent as cow/calf pairs to the sale barn. All heifer calves that come from cows that are maturing to my expectation would be ear marked for retaining. Hopefully, I would now have a total of not less than 36 females from the original 50 purchased and maybe 16 female calves for future use. I would repeat this selection process until I built a herd that satisfies my requirements. I would continue to run the cows that I did not cull from the existing herd in order to utilize the grass and to have cash flow. However, I would send some of the old cows to the sale as the new calves reach breeding age. You can balance this phasing of the old out and the new in over time. Just do not lose sight of the original goal. Over time you will develop a herd that will thrive on grass, have a uniformity in size and color. You are going to have to produce the animals you want.


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## Allen W

How old are the cows, any of them broken mouthed or with short teeth? Something to consider while your making decisions about replacements.


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## godsgapeach

I just talked to Daddy about selling some of the biggest cow/calf pairs and as long as we don't have a "mass exodus" he's good with that. We'll probably take a little longer to buy the replacements (not 50 at a time), but it's definitely do-able over time.

The cows are various ages--we can for sure eliminate the oldest/largest first. I haven't been in the lot with them in quite a while so I don't know about teeth--except the ones I feed apples to...

Do you think it will help that Daddy's pretty good friends with the guy who runs the sale barn? Like maybe a heads up on good looking stockers (since he'd know who they're coming from, too)? Or would we be better off looking for them another way? I'm just pitching ideas out... Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks again!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Sure it would help. Only one drawback. The man at the sale barn is probably of the same mentality as the conventional producer. He absolutely must know what you are looking for. Once he is aware of what your needs are he surely can assist in locating such animals. Go to the post here by dexter and look at his cattle. He has some nice pics. Can you differentiate between the red cow that is dehorned and the black cow that is polled? How would you communicate that to a person at the sale barn when not referencing the color and the horns?


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## godsgapeach

I think he could point us in the right direction given the specs we're looking for.

Yes, I can differentiate between the two of Dexter's--describing them sufficiently will be a challenge. I'm thinking back through my old Livestock Judging days... Daddy always got frustrated because I was better at Dairy judging. 
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach
Here is what the right cow can produce off grass alone. She is 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Murray Grey. The only thing lacking is the correct color IMO








Here is one of her calves at ~14 months








and here at ~20 months


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## godsgapeach

Very nice! 

Gtme was playing around with the aerial pic on Excel and this is what he came up with:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/godsgapeach/waterpermfence.jpg

He did way better than my freehand before. He marked the pasture access with stars and the water access (to the creeks) with arrows.

Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

this cow in the foreground is the type cow that can give you the results desired from grass


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
I am not going to be able to improve the markings I made freehand on the largest tract. However, it appears to me that my original rough layout would work. You can keep the best retained cows and some replacement heifers/cows in that pasture. With the temporary wire partitions for paddocks and the lanes for movement and the existing access to water you should be able to move ahead as is shouldn't you? In the other two tracts you can keep cattle that you are going to continue to feed in the usual manner until you get rotational grazing phased in overall. What do you need me to do at this time?


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I sure wasn't criticizing your handiwork. I just should have let my brother do the original work on ours--my squiggles blurred the lines quite a bit.

You can breathe a sigh of relief that you don't "need" to do any more for us (your help has been greatly appreciated, though!). 

Of course there are (and probably will continue to be) more questions. What source do you use for your fencing? I know Lowes carries the step in posts, but I figure you to be pretty frugal--who's got the best price for polytape and such. 

Thanks as always!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

I never perceived that you were being critical. With my poor bedside manner I was just stating that I felt you had the idea and could move ahead and apply what I had provided to your application.
Lowe's has the best price on the pigtail posts. The polytwine is about the same price wherever you buy it, shipping is expensive on the twine. Get the 6 wire stainless steel version. I use the reels Lowe's sells for electrical extension cords. You need to have a good high output 110 volt fence charger and it is beneficial to have a 12volt DC solar one also. I use ParMak's best units bought off the internet. I buy Barkaret high tensile 12 1/2 gauge high tensile wire and I buy the best insulators I can locate. I drive good post deep into the ground on the partition fence ends, no bracing. I use 3/4" pvc line post, spaced on 60 ft centers, that have holes drilled every 2 inches for hairpins. I use the "hairpin" wire clips to secure the high tensile wire to the pvc posts. No gates are used. I take a 7' length of 1 1/2 " schedule 40 PVC pipe with a V cut in one end to hold the wire up for the cattle to get from the lane to the paddocks. I simply pull the hairpin, place the 1 1/2" pvc pipe over the 3/4" line post and raise the wire and place the wire in the V. The cattle walk under the wire and the wire can remain hot since the pvc will not conduct electricity. When you place the hairpin on the wire rotate the ends to where the eye of the hairpin make a complete loop so that he hairpin cannot be lost off the wire. I would go ahead and buy all the tools required to work the wire and to test the fence. Kencove has these. Have your brother to attempt to set the narrow dimension of the paddocks to around 300 ft on his layout. I would be happy to critique or assist him with his results.


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## godsgapeach

We will probably have to have gates, though I understand why you don't. Our chicken litter has always been spread by truck by the guy who cleans out our chicken houses. Normally he just zips all over the pasture. Don't know how he's going to feel about paddocks... 

Here's a picture of one of the bulls and some of the other girls.

























Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

You can pull the hairpins and disconnect the wire on one end and lay the wire on the ground. I normally just take the hairpins off several line posts and then put the wire back to the posts at ground level with the hairpins and the driver just drives over the single strand. With the long rectangular paddocks being 300 feet wide that will be 5 trips at 60 feet wide for the spreader truck. This dimension was predetermined for fertilizer, lime and litter trucks. The drivers tell me that they like coming to my place because of the layout. They only turn at each end instead of 4 times in most field that are square. I have tried to put myself in the place of those providing various services or needs that may be required. With proper positioned lanes a driver should be able to go most places on the farm without having to get out of the truck. I am more convinced than ever that you need to standardize the herd. You need to obtain a sire ASAP to help convert any retained offspring to your future needs. Where would you estimate that the calves you now market rank at the sale? How far would you travel to pick up a good grass raised right type black bull in the $2500 to $3000 price range. I just know where you can get one and if the bull I have doesn't work out I will be going there also. This is the kind of bull ,but black, that I would like both of us to have. Such an animal is1/2 the herd and that is a lot cheaper than trying to buy a lot of high quality cows. Read at the end of this article how frame size impacts cattle http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm


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## godsgapeach

I definitely see the difference, Agman. This is the smallest of the 2 bulls that travels in the biggest pasture. He just happens to be the one that came down to the house today. The other is bigger, but I don't know that he can compare with your pics either.

I have no idea where the calves rank--but I'm sure with help and the suggestions you've offered, we can do better. 

How far are you talking about traveling? We might be able to find a source closer to home, but I'm always open to suggestions.

Also, I see what you mean about disconnecting at the hairpins--that makes sense. 

I've got a job sitting here in front of me and I'm trying to get most of it done before we leave for the conference--so I won't have as much time to read or reply this week. But if you think of any more words of wisdom, lay 'em on us and I'll check in when I can.

Thanks again!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Call 1-800-311-0995 and ask for a Spring sale catalog. It will give you delivery points where you would have to go to get a bull should you buy one. When you get the catalog look at a black composite bull frame 4, low birth weight and moderate milk production. Did you read the text in the link attached above?


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## godsgapeach

Pharo Cattle? I requested one online.
Thanks
Godsgapeach


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## godsgapeach

Agmantoo, If you have more time for questions, I of course have more to ask.

With your fencing, at what height do you have your wire?

Do you have your herd broken up or are they all together? 

How much space would you suggest between our electric fencing and the existing barbwire to avoid problems?

Thanks as always
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

Are you referencing the single wire paddock separation fence? If so, I have that wire approximately 40 inches above ground. I do permit the small calves to move under the wire as I want them to have access to the best grass.

The herd is all together and that is not a problem. It is far more convenient to move them as a group. If the herd is compromised of more than one group some of the cattle will want to move to the other group. Pecking order is easier maintained as one herd.

If you have a good perimeter fence then just leave well enough alone and only electrify the partition fences. Recall, I suggested earlier that you make one side of the lane fence the primary wire for distributed power over the farm. There is no justification for electrifying the entire paddock area. Actually it is a negative to electrify more area than what is in use at the time. Keep everything as simple as possible.

Here is a partition fence, single wire held with the hairpin to a purchased PVC post that is drilled on 2 inch center with the wire at ~ 40 inches high. If you look closely you can see the wire nearest you is raised. I have the 1 1/2 inch schedule 40 pipe with the V in it placed over the next post holding the wire so that the cattle can exit the paddock onto the lane which has grass. That is the gate. Obviously this is an old pic, you see and weeds? No goats either!


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## agmantoo

I have over the discussions shown a lot of pics taken over the various seasons. I would like to point out that the body condition of the cattle remains rather consistent. Hopefully your circumstances have permitted you to share these pics with your dad and other members of the family. One pic, IMO will demonstrate what it would take me hours to type. My typing leaves a lot to be desired as I only have a couple of usable fingers on one hand due to an old accident. I know some people object to the time it takes for pics to load but they remain the best method for me to communicate what is often hard to put to written word.


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## godsgapeach

I had noticed the consistency of your herd (and your forage). Very impressive!

I've printed many of the pics to share with Daddy. We'd like to have a lot of things worked out (and on paper) to show him what we're shooting for when we get back from the conference this weekend.

I also heard from Pharo today and emailed back and forth with Donna a bit. She asked where I heard about them so I gave the little bit of reference info I could (maybe you'll get a perk from the recommendation?!). And Montgomery, AL is not far to travel to get a prime bull from them.

You have certainly given us a lot to consider and offered lots of wise counsel that we couldn't have gotten anywhere else. And for that we're very grateful! Many, many thanks to you.

(And just a warning... I'll probably have many more questions when we get back from the conference. Can you stand it?)

Thanks!
Godsgapeach


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## jtsummie

agmantoo how do you work your watering in your different paddocks?


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## agmantoo

I have 3 small dug water holes that collect run off and I have 2 high water table small streams. This past summer I installed 3300 ft of water line and I have 4 each two hole cattle waters, only 2 installed as I just bought the last 2. These commercial waterers are connected to a well and the distribution plumbing is run in the lanes that connect the paddocks. At this time the longest distance the cattle have to travel to the commercial waterers is an estimated 1200 ft. I want to reduce that to 800 ft or less. I am installing these piecemeal myself.


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## godsgapeach

I'm back! It took me a while to get back into the swing of things after the conference and I'm still processing the info we heard.

But once again, I'd like to thank you Agmantoo. It was pretty cool to go into that pasture management class and be able to say, "I've heard that!" Almost everything you've suggested or shared with us was confirmed by the "specialist" with very few if any discrepancies. The benefit to the class was that I was able to get some personal assistance with our particular land challenges--the instructor sat down with me and my aerial photos and I could point out problems with terrain or water location and he offered suggestions. He even drew out a possible plan that was very similar to the one you did for us.

One thing he said that differed was that he prefers a red breed (with a bit of ear)--for heat resistance--where you prefer black. But one of his close buddies also prefers black.

And as for planting any particular forages, his theory is "plant only fenceposts for the first 3 years." You don't know what you have that could be waiting to grow that has been gnawed down and then overshadowed by taller grasses until you get the cows off the area.

We certainly don't have the whole system mapped out, but we're working on it. And we're dealing with the watering issue too--checking into options.

Thanks loads!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

I am glad that you were able to attend and have an informative conference. I will acknowledge that doing rotational grazing is an ongoing learning experience and I do try to remain open minded and I know myself well enough to realize that there will always be differences in opinions or topics open to strong discussions. Practical experiences and formal training will not always be in harmony. I told you previously that farmers have been sold a bill of goods and I remain by that statement. Since I was not present with your specialist let me ask a few questions in order that I may establish a position. Did he/she have any cattle of their own? Did they depend on their livestock impacting their quality of life financially? What did they base their position on for the type/color of animals they produced? With the amount of trees on your place providing shade why red and with ear when the market is going to discount both? Are you aware that black is not the greatest heat absorbing color? Why do you think trees are green? Why would you leave the pasture unplanted and less productive during the transition period? You want more persimmons and thistle? You can make or influence some things happening or you can wait and wonder what happened. I am not trying to be argumentative but I do from time to time encourage a response to see if a person is alert and thinking. You need to be establishing a timeframe, You have a permanent perimeter fence. The interior partitions need to be in place before the Spring growth burst. That is achievable with very little time and money. As I told you previously that you can be less efficient with the water until you can take are of that. You may want to relocate some of the interior partitions and the water could be in the wrong place. You need to bush hog those persimmon sprouts off now with the dullest blades on the farm in order to splinter the sprouts at ground level. I am of the opinion that you can choke the thistle out over time but you have to have the partition fences to do that. Have you gotten the lime PH report from the lab? What is the single greatest obstacle that you face with switching to rotational grazing at this time?


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## godsgapeach

I agree, Agman. I'm taking it all with a grain of salt. 

Yes, the specialist has cattle--about 100 head on 100 acres in Arkansas. He direct markets his beef through a co-op (Ozark Pasture Beef) though so color isn't his primary concern. I was just passing along what he said about his preference--along that same line his rule of thumb about shade is "if the heat index is 95 degrees or above, you need shade" but below that, they're ok in direct sunlight. Don't think I agree there. It can still be smoking hot below that 95 index! And there will be several paddocks with no or little shade.

He said red for heat resistance and ear because Brahman/Zebu types graze longer. I like blacks better personally, but we're also considering Murray Greys. (or black/grey mixes)

His suggestion of not planting anything is to see what type of plant diversity you have without spending any $$ unnecessarily. His opinion is that if you get the cows off the field, something's going to grow and then you can see what you've got. He did say of course that you're welcome to plant if you've got the means to do it. But the biggest hindrance to something growing well, in our case, isn't necessarily a lack of seeds, but the cows grazing it to nubs as soon as it appears in the field.

Daddy did start bushhogging while we were gone so one of the worst persimmon stands is now down. And our soil tests came back--pH is from 5.7 in the bottoms where the litter truck hasn't been traveling, 5.9 to the left of the chicken houses, 6.1 to the right of the chicken houses, 6.3 across the road from the chicken houses, 6.0 in the pond cut, and 6.5 in the field that's farther down the road.

Our biggest obstacle right now is getting the fencing materials and time. My brother works (and commutes) so he's gone dark to dark every day, and weekends are always busy. Bottom line is, we just have to jump in and start fencing.

I don't mind challenging questions. Makes me decide what I believe and why. So fire away.
Godsgapeach


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## jtsummie

an interesting thought... Sometimes not doing something costs more than doing something..ie if you wait 3 years you loose what you could have made over those 3 years... but I also agree you HAVE to have a plan before you jump in. i don't think making any drastic changes is good but you can still make some money while gradually making changes


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## agmantoo

With 100 head on 100 acres he is bound to be bringing in feed sometime throughout the year or he is feeding/finishing only part of the year. Where is he making his money? Did he make any references as to being a low cost producer? I doubt that he spoke specifics regarding his cost basis in his cattle. Did the specialist discuss the frame size of his cattle and what is he selling, grass or grass and grain fed? I probably told you I have a registered Murray Grey bull but I have not gotten any calves from him. I have some crossbred MG and Angus that I do like but I do not like giving up the premium for black as the mixed calves are predominantly brown to gray. Recall, I told you that you do not have to have the end post braced if you drive them in when doing the partition fences. Two people can easily do 20 acres of partition fence is less than a day. I like my fences with the posts vertical and the lines straight. Start the post driving out of view and get some experience and just install the ends of the straight runs, never fence in a curve, use segments of straight runs. Once you have the end posts in place pull the high tensile taut and use that wire to align the line posts. I recommend using the drilled PVC posts and a pipe post driver as it functions good and is fast. Do you need and pics of partition fence? As the other poster mentioned, keep the farm producing and if necessary hire some of the partition fences installed if necessary. As I told you, having a heifer to calve at 24 months of age cannot be overcome by a cow that doesn't calve that early. The same thing applies to losing a year of production with your herd. Tell me what I can do to get you going? PS....the PH is fine for now. With broiler litter you will not get the same results as from a layer house. However, litter of any kind is great in today's ridiculous fertilizer market.


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## godsgapeach

According to what the guy said, he's finishing them on grass but he does put them "up" for the winter and they get hay then. Actually he finishes on crab and Johnson grasses. (He doesn't like fescue or bermuda--that just made me laugh.) He didn't say specifically that he's a low cost producer, but his theory is "don't buy anything if you're not going to get ample return for it." How that translates into his production, I don't know. I didn't interrogate him ;-> 

I know it doesn't make any difference but he's a GLCI employee, former extension agent, former professor--I can't remember all his "credentials," but GLCI's a division of NRCS. All alphabet soup to me. Anyway, he made mention that many extension agents are just bureaucrats and that all their "recommendations" are based on AVERAGES--but how many of us are really "average." There's something unique about each farmer's situation. He also told us that grassfed actually means we're marketing grass--if it's not a great quality/nutritional value, then that will show in the beef we sell.

He recommended mid-size--1000-1200 pound, and had pics of one Angus bull and pics of the cuts of meat. It was a 13 month old, about 1000 pounds, dressed out at 478 pounds and graded Select Plus. And others of his herd are Gelbvieh/Red Angus cross.

Oh I forgot to mention, he also uses a notched pvc "gate" only he has some metal pipe on the bottom that's wrapped with hot wire so he can leave it and the cows don't knock it over. He can just lift off the pvc when he's moving them and stick it back in the other pipe when he's done.

I would love to have more pics of your fence, corners and such whenever you have time (no rush). As I told you I'm a very VISUAL learner and everything I get a photo of helps define what we're shooting for.

How wide is your lane? Are you talking hydraulic post driver? or manual? Wood corner posts? I know I have more questions, but that's enough for now...

Thanks as always!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

The lanes are actually dual function, lane and paddock. The width is a multiple of the spreader width of a lime spreader or fertilizer truck which I need to verify is 60'. The largest width lane is two spreader trip widths and the narrow on is a single spreader trip width. 
I am talking a hydraulic post driver for the corner posts and a hand held homemade driver for the small 3/4" pvc line posts.
When it stops raining I will collect some fence pics.
With the correct cattle the grade should go Choice on grass, this is done in Australia consistently.
Crab grass, Red River variety, is good hot weather feed but should be fed during the growing period. Johnson grass will not tolerate cold and has a short growing season and if you graze it heavily it will die out. IMO, it is unsightly in a good stand of uniform fescue. If I could get Bermuda that would persist I would plant some, it just plays out here. Ask you dad what grass has the longest growing season in your part of the world?
I consider myself a grass farmer that markets his product through meat. That we agree on. Frame 4 cattle or smaller are the correct size and we also agree there.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agmantoo. We're expecting rain today too (thankfully!). As I said, no rush on the photos. Just when you're out and about...

I was wondering if you'd want to post them in a new thread, specifically for rotational fencing? 

What psi is your high tensile? He recommended 180K rather than 200K so it can actually be manipulated manually.

I'm going to keep looking over my notes and if I find more comments you might think are interesting, I'll jot them down. I'm sure they'll raise more questions too.

Appreciate the help, as always!
Godsgapeach


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## agmantoo

The rain ceased here around 4PM and I took some pics when I went to move the cattle. Because of the number of pics I am going to link you to photobucket and you can review them there. I made some typo's in the headings so disregard them. I felt if I tried to alter the mistakes I may mess up the download. Any questions just ask ? Definitely go with the 180k as the 200k is mean to work. I can actually secure the 180K to an insulator, twist the wire to terminate it and then break the wire all by hand. When you get to that point I will do this in steps and take photos as to how to do it. 
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/visual info/?albumview=slideshow


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## agmantoo

I have some time invested in this post and I do not feel that it is complete enough to make a sticky. As the original poster has not returned I am unsure if there is adequate interest to continue. Since the last post there obviously has been a lot of views of the posts. I would like to include some information regarding on working the high tensile wire and possibly some details on the tools needed. Additionally if there are additional questions from others regarding rotational grazing I feel comfortable replying but I would like to continue here. I would appreciate the thoughts of others that visit here on whether to precede . Thanks


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## godsgapeach

Hi, Agmantoo. I'm sorry I haven't replied since your last post. To make a long story short it's been a crazy week, trying to set up 2 new beehives, and right now I've got a sick kiddo.

I know you've invested a tremendous amount of time and I've been meaning to get back to you with the tons of questions running through my head. Again, I appreciate all you've done to help us make decisions!

I'm game for any words of wisdom you can offer about the actual fencing products--what to get, what to avoid, tricks you've learned, things that didn't work... If you think they're better suited for another thread, that's fine, or just keep going here. I'm still listening (maybe that's better than asking some questions that are probably ridiculous ;->).

I hope in the next couple of days I can get it together and ask about what I don't understand.

One thing that stuck out to me from your pictures (which I appreciate especially!) is WHERE did you get the Ibeams? My husband works for a wood treatment company so wooden corner posts will be a viable option for us...

I hope that answers your question. YES, I'm still here and checking in. Prepare for more questions soon.
Thanks again,
Godsgapeach


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## jtsummie

Thanks to all who post... I'm still in my apartment reading books and posts dreaming of the farm I will one day have. I learn a lot by hearing about others experiences, what worked and what didn't. 

Thanks again


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## Viking6

<<< Is soaking up every word, i live Up in Michigan. I am wondering if this would work in the climate we have. I know 3 months of the year when it is -14 below, and 2 feet of snow it wont. But most years it is a little more mild than this one.


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## LibertyIIE

I live in south central Texas and have been rotational grazing for sometime. I have learned more here than ever before. It is also good to hear someone that knows what is what confirm many of the things I hear from people that are trying to sell something. Agmantoo please continue to educate me.
Agmantoo,When you start to stockpile forage for the winter, do you fertilize about the same as for a traditional hay cutting??

Ken


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## godsgapeach

I think you got your answer, Agmantoo. Please, lead on!

I would also appreciate it if some of the others who've been reading this thread would ask the questions YOU have. They may answer some I haven't been able to formulate or some I haven't even considered yet! Plus I know I've asked some pretty dumb ones ;->. And there are more to come I'm sure...

Thanks again
Godsgapeach


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## ArmyDoc

For every one of those who have posted, there's probably another 10 who are reading it. I think this is one of the top 10 threads I've read in the past year (lol 2008, not just 2009!), and easily the best on this particular topic I've read, ever.


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## Viking6

Godsgapeach,

I will have plenty of questions in the next few months, right now i am working on the farm i just bought. Mending fences,barns and running the wildlife out of the barns. I have trees growing up thre the grainery. The man down the road told me this land has not been farmed since 1972. I have done some figuring on laying out my lanes as stated before. I have 230 acres total, 30 of it woods 10 is new trees or saplings, 5 swamp and the rest good tillable ground. The woods i am thinking i will cut big swaths trew so they can use it for shade and shelter from the wind. I am new to farming, but am learning every day, and i am lucky as i have alot neighbors who come over every day to see if i need help, i think they are expecting to pull up and find me dead some day(LOL). When i first got here and told people i sold everything i owned to buy a farm they looked at me like i had the black plauge(my parents acted like they were gut shot). But, i wont ramble on to much.I will put some pictures up soon to( I want to do before and after) so people can see how much work i have done. The weather has been bad today -18 with the wind chill.


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## godsgapeach

It has been cold here the last few days, Viking but not nearly THAT cold. There's a reason I was born and raised in Georgia--not a huge fan of freezing or below temps! 

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. I'd like to see pics of your progress too.


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## April

I've been soaking up all of this information as well, and really appreciate the time everyone has spent asking questions and giving answers. Agmantoo, I owe ya some cookies!


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## agmantoo

Viking6,
I am aware of a producer in Iowa that is able to reduce his hay feeding to 6 weeks. To me, in his weather conditions that is a major accomplishment. Considering his climate he is probably ahead of what I have done. How would you compare your climate to his?


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## agmantoo

LibertyIIE,
I have ceased to buy commercial fertilizer. I do have access to the chicken litter of one layer house. I use that and I drag harrow the cattle pats from the grazing cattle. In Dec I hired the farm checked for lime and fertilizer needs. The results were better than expected. On 161 acres of paddocks, the test results called for 18 tons of lime which I have already applied and some minimal amount of nitrogen for Spring application. Just yesterday the fertilizer source that I have used in years past called wanting my business. I do not intend to apply any as I already get more Spring growth than the herd can use. If I were to apply fertilizer I would use phosphate as it will grow more grass than nitrogen here. If you will cease to disturb the soil and create a good carbon level on the surface your fertilizer requirements will diminish. A little realized occurrence that we have in late Summer is that we get night dew. When that starts if you will apply some fertilizer you can get some growth off that dew. As you are probably aware by now, I will render an gnat for its tallow. This early start will give growth for starting to stockpile and will provide early forage when others are feeding hay while waiting on rain. Have you ever researched terra preta? I am not stating that I can replicate it as I cannot but it is most interesting. Possibly over a long period of time terra preta may evolve. Wishful thinking on my behalf! If you look in the background of the pics I am posting, they are current, you can see than even though we have been cold the grass is abundant and is holding. What is the major forage you are stockpiling?


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## agmantoo

Lots of users shy away from high tensile wire because they view it too difficult to work. Using 180,000 PSI wire makes a huge difference and it if fine for cattle. Let me state here at the beginning. It is imperative to wear safety glasses at all times when working with this wire. I personally have installed more that 120,000 feet of this wire on my place. I also have probably taken 20,000 feet back up to "correct" what I thought needed changing. From not having any background or experience initially and flying by the seat of the pants I realized it will get you in trouble but it can be corrected. It is just a lot of work. My time is constrained so I will start with just a basic tie off for terminating the wire to an insulator or for just circling a fence post. This end loop tie is useful in many applications and can be accomplished with just ones hands, no tools.
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/high tensile wire/?albumview=slideshow
I would like to see you be able to have similar results once you get familiar with the method


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
The post I have are recycled guard rail posts bought from a contractor that makes repairs. He is not permitted to reuse a post so they are sold for scrap.


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## Viking6

agmantoo,
I am not shure about snow fall in Iowa, i think temps are around the same give or take 15 degrees. My issue will be snow and lots of it. Shouldnt you be getting a premium on your stock? Here in Michigan people are looking to buy meat they know did not come from a CAFO. My wife to be is a nurse at a local Hospital and they all want Organic, UnPasturized Milk, Eggs you get the idea. And the movement away from the supermarket could be your winfall. Agian i have no idea what i am doing, but following my heart. And it has told me to take farming back to its roots by selling right to the consumer. I have a lot to learn about farming, but i do know people, and i know they will pay a little more for better food. I dont want to ruin your post by rambling on so back to the weather. I have about 2 feet of snow on the ground from about 15 DEC to about 20 FEB. March is still cold around 15-20 at night, we get alot of wind off of the lakes.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, you have so nuff figured out what it takes for me to get it! Thanks a million for the step-by-step pictures! That's exactly what I need.

(once again your info agrees with the "specialist"--he said don't super-tighten the high tensile but just hand tie it)

Thanks!


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## LibertyIIE

Agmantoo,
My source of stockpiled grass would be Coastal Bermuda. That and a very small amount of prairie grass as we still have an old prairie meadow that has been in use since 1881. Never been plowed. We have ceased to hay it and simple rotational graze this area. You speak of not disturbing the soil and create a good carbon layer. This land is very,very black soil. Sometime called black gumbo. How do I keep that from getting hard as rock? We do have an organic matter level of 4%. I don't know if that is low or not?
Thanks,
Ken


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## agmantoo

Ken, I am in zone 7 and though I have traveled extensively and have lived elsewhere this is the only place I have farmed. We have poor depleted red clay that is highly acidic. This is considered by most to be poor farm country. Some of the lowest lease rates for farm land in NC are in this county. CRP base rates are like $40/acre. With that background here are my observations. Our growing season is so long that it depletes the nutrients. With the low PH, fertilizer cannot work without amendments such as lime. I have hauled every rotten hay bale that I located just to get my garden to grow. The ground frost depth is 6 inches, once ground is compacted it stays. Remember we are the source for bricks. I do know that to keep the soil from being compacted it is essential to never get on the ground when it is wet with machinery. I have learned to plant forages that are deep rooted such as fescue. Eventually these roots will break up the hard pan. We do not grow Bermuda grass here as it will not flourish. As stated previously my mainstay forage is considered a weed in many areas. You need to determine what will grow and sustain itself in your area. I am unqualified to give a specific answer.


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## res48

Agmantoo
I just posted but it seemed to not work. Haven't been on for months so maybe I am on probation! My question was whether you have tried methods advocated by Joel Salatin but found they did not work for you. I am in the process of changing 100 acres of pasture/timber over to a rotational grazing program and appreciate all the info you have provided. Thanks for the time you are investing in this discussion.


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## agmantoo

res48
My situation varies considerably in that IMO Joel is out to make his lifestyle and his income from a total involvement in his projects and with me I only obligate myself to use my cattle to supplement my income and to minimally impact my lifestyle. On an average day I spend 30 to 45 minutes. My perception is that with Joel it is 24/7. I think it is obvious that I do also enjoy the cattle.


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## res48

Agmantoo,
I totally agree that Joel's operation is 24/7. Plus at this point he is travelling around to seminars which probably pay well. He was in St. Louis in December and I got to listen to him for several hours. Very interesting ideas but it helps to have a few interns around to do some work. Hope to hear more of your experience in rotational grazing.


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## agmantoo

I have not been to Joel Salatin's farm but I have viewed some of his videos and read many of his articles. IMO, he is too spread out to excel at one thing and is so so with a lot of things. Being diversified is not bad in a changing market. "What one loses on the peanuts, he may make up for on the popcorn" is one of my favorite sayings. I would however like to cull his cattle herd!


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## agmantoo

LibertyIIE
We had great weather here today. You had asked me about fertilizer and the task for today was to address part of my fertilizer needs on the cheap. Have you research what legumes grow readily in your area and have you planted any to get the nitrogen? This is a simple task and rather inexpensive plus I can multitask. I use what fertilizer the cattle generate and I plant clover. Here are some of todays activities. 
Here is the task
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/Rotational grazing/IMG00604.jpg
Now it is finished
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/Rotational grazing/IMG00612.jpg
And these are the tools that sowed the seed and distributed the manure simoultaneously
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/Rotational grazing/IMG00609.jpg


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## godsgapeach

We had great weather today too, Agmantoo! Feels almost like spring.

When you get a chance can you describe your grounding system for your fence?

And what type of spinner do you have for the high tensile?

Thanks!
Godsgapeach


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## johnson

agmantoo i know you stockpile the fescue for winter feed. is that also your summer feed. i've been following this thread but maybe i missed it.


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## johnson

sorry i found my answer in another search.fescues and clovers year round.


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach
I am a little embarrassed to answer you regarding the payout spool for the high tensile. As stated previously my operation is a one person one. I knew I could not watch the spool and pull the wire simultaneously since I could not be in both places at once. I have a small homemade trailer that I made to match in size with my four wheeler. I took a desk chair that I was going to put in my deer stand and turned it upside down after ripping the seat off. Then I welded the seat to the floor of the trailer using some junk from my scrap pile. I then took the rollers off the base of the chair and fabricated some brackets to hold the high tensile roll centered on the chair base. To unroll the wire, I affix the trailer to the 4 wheeler, put a roll of wire on the inverted chair, connect the loose end of the wire to the start point and get on the 4 wheeler side saddle and drive to the destination paying out wire as I go and verifying everything is working. If I am pulling over ground to rough to ride over I park the trailer and search for someone to watch the payout. The trailer works great in that I can carry all the tools and supplies in a single trip. I may have a link for a good wire pay out lazy susan. Let me search and if I find it I will edit this post and add same. This is close to what I remember but not exact. This one has some desirable features
http://kygraziers.com/kgshop/product.php?xProd=230&xSec=13


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## godsgapeach

I have to laugh, Agman. When I originally typed the question, I almost asked you what you fashioned for your spinner instead of purchasing a spinning jenny. I had a feeling your ingenuity came into play again, and you didn't disappoint! I wouldn't be embarrassed at all! I think it's great!


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## LibertyIIE

Agmantoo,
Yes we have planted ball clover, hairy vetch, and burr medic comes up when we have enough moisture. We have not had any appreciable rain since last May. Very dry here but it is showering right now.
Ball clover does good in this area but, I have had only limited success. We have planted it the same as you do. We also have used a grassland no till drill. We have not scattered the piles since the drought started. You can easily step from one to the next.
Ken


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## GoddessKristie

Agman, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with everyone! This is one of my favorite threads of all time! 
I thought perhaps it would be beneficial to know what it would take to get to an operation like yours from a row crop situation. We are considering purchasing some land in the next couple years and most everything in our area is planted in row crops. The idea of going from soybeans to pasture seems daunting to me, but I am a huge fan of grassfed operations for many reasons and I cannot see us doing anything other than grassfed cattle. We would be looking at a smaller farm of around 40-50ac. 
What would you recomend for those of us who would have to start from scratch? Specifically, when would you plant, how long before you could begin to run cattle on the pasture, would you plant over the remnants of crops or would you disc first?
I would also like to hear from anyone who is running an operation similar to agman's in zone 5. Our grass is pretty brown right now, but we weren't stockpiling exactly. I'm very curious to know how this would work in a slightly colder climate!


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## agmantoo

GoddessKristie
Let me share a little background. I never evolved from a farm family. We always lived in a small town on a postage stamp lot. I always wanted to own land and to grow something on it. I has been a long and sometime trying effort. There was no land, no equipment, no farm knowledge and usually no money. I once read that Edison was asked "how is it coming along with the development of the light bulb" and his response was "great, I know 800 plus things that won't work". My attempts as a farmer are about the same. I am uncertain of what would be the optimum forage for you in Indianna. I feel fortunate that for me fescue will grow here. My fescue is rather brown at this time but the cattle are flourishing. I do not consider myself a cattleman. I am a grass farmer that has learned how to grow and utilize a forage that many consider a weed. Now for the few things that I do know or believe until proven otherwise. I do remain open minded : ). Never disturb a seedbed that exists that is smooth enough for riding a tractor over. Leave the surface undisturbed as possible. Always plant in the top 1 1/2 inches or less. Keep the PH correct. Keep unnecessary traffic off the land. Give the perennial forages an opportunity to develop a good root system before every grazing it. Let the forage crop go ungrazed for two seasons if possible but do mow the tops off timely. We want to establish a deep root system. Keep legumes interplanted to create nitrogen for the non legumes. Do not think that the initial paddocks will be the ones you ultimately end up using. Rotational grazing is a constantly evolving and learning process. The cattle you use is just as important as the choice of forage. I have a difficulty communicating this to folks. Your brood cow needs to weigh not more than 1100 lbs at maturity. She needs to be of moderate frame size. You do not want her to give a lot of milk. She only needs to give enough milk to provide for the calf adequately until it can start grazing. The brood cow needs to maintain her condition so that she will breed back within 60 days of giving birth. We want heifers that will heat cycle early and produce a calf on her 2nd birthday. You are not trying to raise the largest calf that is at the market for its age. You are attempting to raise a calf that can prosper on the forage your place can produce on minimal fertilizer and maintenance. It does not matter that your calf hangs around a few weeks longer if your calf goes to market and sells in the top bracket and did so at a cost far below the largest, youngest calf. I have to emphasize that my operation is not a hobby. If profitability is not a concern then just ignore my inputs. We had visitors yesterday and they make some pics of the calves that they insisted sharing. I will bore you with some of the pics and you can see the forage in the background and the condition of the cows.
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/9Feb/?albumview=slideshow


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## agmantoo

Keep the questions coming. I hope everyone's pastures are starting to green up with the recent mild weather. I am taking a short vacation and should be back by weekend if you are wondering why I am not responding. C'ya.


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## godsgapeach

I'm working up a list ... enjoy your time away!


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## GoddessKristie

Thanks for the info Agmantoo! I am happy you suggest overseeding, we were hoping to get property at just the right time that we could do some frost seeding. I am a bit dissapointed that it will take so long for the grass to become established enough to graze it. We'll have to take that into consideration as we search (and try to get at least some pasture if possible).
As for animals, we are mainly interested in Highlands for many reasons. They mature at 1.000lb (bulls at 1.200, I believe), and so are similar to what you described earlier. Being terrific foragers we believe we will be able to run them in the woodlot (a requirement for any property we'd have of larger size), which will increase our grazing area. We will likely have to get into them slowly (being cost-prohibitive) and thus will probably start out with bottle calves the first few years as we increase our herd. 
I've been reading All Flesh is Grass and am now in the section where he talks about his rotation through the year (pg 33-36 if anyone has a copy on hand). I would love to hear your annual roation as well, if it wouldn't be too complicated.
I've been researching stockpiled forage to try and get a closer estimate for our area (though I think the most accurate will come through trial), and came accross several good articles. The first of them I found pretty encouraging since I am in the same hardiness zone as the author. (Find it here). I emailed the author and recieved a timely reply with the following information at the bottom:


Research in Iowa and Missouri show that 40 to 60 lbs N per acre applied in 
early to mid- Aug and with average or better rainfall, that you can produce 
enough fall growth for a couple months of grazing at an allocation rate of
2 acres of pasture per cow/calf pair or equivalent. There are some variables.
Heavier stocking rate (1 Ac per cow/calf pair or equivalent) will eat down the 
forage in about half the time. We often assume ~ a 75-80 % utilization rate
(grazed down pretty short) -- you have to strip graze to get this utilization,
with associated reduced animal gain the latter part of each graze period
on a strip because the animals have a lower quality (and maybe quantity ! )
diet. Supplementation of protein is probably not needed. Supplementing 
hay or grain will have some substitution effect ( cows will eat less grass), 
but it is not a 1 to 1 substitution. If hay and/or grain is being substituted 
daily. the cows become more 'lazy' and dependent on the supplement and 
do not graze as effeminately. 

Without knowing what is growing,or how thick the stand is, it is still a bit
soon to tell you what to overseed. 

If the existing mixture is adequate and needs fertilization 
to stimulate its production then consider soil testing and 
fertilizing it . See ISU Extension bulletin.....
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM869.pdf

If you think that you need to add another (or more) grass 
species, I will refer you to several ISU Extension bulletins 
that may be useful. 

Pm-1792 Selecting Forage Species (traits, concerns etc).
It also has some suggested mixtures.....
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1792.pdf

If the grass species are desirable and 'average or thinner' 
sod than desired, the overseeding with legumes would 
be the most timely consideration. The ISU Frost Seeding 
pub is available on the ISU Ext. www site at:
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM856.pdf
It has steps and caotions.

You might want to look at the guidelines for 'sod-seeding /
not-till seeding' legumes and other grasses. 
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1097.pdf

If you think that you need to do some tillage and recreate a 
new seedbed and establish a new mixture (i.e. 'start over' ) ...
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1008.pdf

Somethin\g to consider - if you can put off the planting until 
next late winter ----- A simple approach is 'Frostseeding' 
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM856.pdf

If that's not enough to keep everyone busy for a while here's some more! 

http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0023.html

http://manitoba.ca/agriculture/crops//forages/pdf/bjb05s14.pdf


Agman, your pictures are not at all boring! I love seeing other people's operations.


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## agmantoo

GoddessKristie
I was in your fine state this week!
As for my rotation through the year.....

Starting mid March I should be out of Winter and the fescue should be greening to where there is some grazing of new growth. I have left more than 3 inches of top growth in about 1/4 of my paddocks and these short lengths should allow photosynthesis to kick in without the grass having to get a start from its stored energy in the roots. Fescue that must grow from the stored energy is delayed.

The grass will peak in May and June and I will have more forage than I can utilize and I will use the bush hog to keep the stems clipped to prevent the grass from going to seed and thus ceasing to grow. By mid July, I will have very little growth on the grass but in actuality I have stockpiled some grass for consumption in late July and August (my worst month).

In late August, we get night dews and I anticipate some growth starting on the dormant grass and the legumes are growing in the low ground where I have some moisture. As September is underway we typically start getting rain off hurricanes several hundred miles away. At this time I begin to really control the movement of the cattle as I now have to start stockpiling grass for the Winter and at the same time I have to feed the herd. If grass is limited I market the calves at a lower weight in order to conserve feed and to get the cows in better condition before cold weather.

Come mid to late December the grass will cease its rapid growth and I begin my Winter stockpile grazing. This period can last from 90 to 115 days. Initially I do not let the cattle graze the graze below 3 to 4 inches and I do not permit them to back graze (eat where they have eaten recently). This remaining 3 to 4 inch grass can and will grow some on warm sunny days and in an emergency situation it can be grazed again if necessary in late January and early Feb if we have a late snow and I have exhausted to main stockpiled paddocks. I will go to great lengths to avoid feeding hay. Actually, I only have 16 days worth at any time. If there is grass in the paddocks the cattle will push the snow aside and continue to graze. The calves learn how to do this from the older stock. Having done the above I am back to the starting point and I have made it through the year without hay! I walked the pastures over today after returning from my trip and I can breathe a big relief as I am confident with what I saw that it will be a down hill ride for the remaining part of Winter. It feels good. ......PS the open cattle are in good body condition and are breeding back and others are calving.

Hopefully this answers your question.

Some of the herd here in Feb 09
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/9Feb/?albumview=slideshow


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## GoddessKristie

Wow, that is amazing, Agman! Your herd looks really good, but that grass looks so scary to me, but the proof is in the pudding! 
I have a question about your rotation. I'm curious how many sections you have total that you rotate through and how many days they stay in each one. Does that vary by season? How many paddocks do you stockpile in? How do they have enough to graze while you're stockpiling if they normally rotate through every paddock? How do they have enough in the winter when you're only rotating through the stockpiled paddocks?
I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere. I re-read the whole thread and couldn't quite get a good picture.
Thanks



agmantoo said:


> This is the best that I can do regarding the aerial view. Although this is recent, it is not totally accurate. Hopefully you can ascertain what is going on to some degree. Ask your questions and I will attempt to answer them. You will notice the "dogleg" main lane and some additional lanes that lead to the main lane. One lane is missing. I cannot alter this pic as the original is a pdf and I simply opened the file on my monitor and with my cell phone took a pic.


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## agmantoo

GoddessKristie
What about the grass do you not like? It is the middle of Feb. and I am pleased the have grass and I think the cattle are more satisfied than I am in that they have something other than hay to eat. I know if given the choice the cattle will ignore hay and return to grazing. This I have witnessed. As for the paddocks and the partitions. I have abandoned the multiple and somewhat fixed small paddocks in favor of having the long rectangular plots that I section off with the poly twine to meet current needs. With the variable size grazing areas afforded by the polytwine and the pigtail posts I can adjust the amount being allocated to graze and I can efficiently run the bushhog, the drag harrow and a spreader truck over larger areas without the downside of having to open a lot of gates or take fence down. When I have excess grass I make the paddocks larger and let the cattle eat the best of the best and then I mow the tops of the remaining grass off so that the grass will continue to produce and at the same time interrupt the growing cycle of some of the weeds. When I am stockpiling grass, I reduce the area being allocated with the polytwine and force the cattle to graze more intensively and waste less. I have done this so long I can judge from looking at the available grass in the areas being stockpiled as to how many acres to accumulate for Winter. Repeating from previous, Winter will be not more than 115 days of grazing stockpiled fescue and may be as short as 90. With good tall grass I know I can get by on less than 7/10ths of an acre per day. Doing the math then I need to set aside up to 80 acres for the worst case of 115 days. I have also come to realize that I can help the situation by not grazing the beginning of Winter non stockpiled areas to the ground and I can get some growth on the end of Fall and the beginning of Winter warm days as a safety net. Using this safety net approach I have ceased to stockpile as many acres as stated above and take some risk by only stockpiling approximately 60 acres or less. Always remember that I am attempting to efficiently use the grass available as this lets me carry more animals per acre thus creating more calves to market. If I get caught short of grass I have three options, sell calves lighter in weight, cull cows or buy feed. Later I will post on culling. Hopefully I have answered your questions but if I have not or if I have been unclear just ask for more definition. I do not ever want to respond with an unclear statement and to consequently have someone to error on my behalf. I will gladly restate anything I post until it cannot be misinterpreted.


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## GoddessKristie

ETA: Your grass only scares me because I am used to thinking that grass that is so brown will not support cattle. I'm slowing altering my thinking 
That sounds very clear and I'm getting a really good picture of what exactly goes into this type of grazing. It's very intersting. I assumed it would be different for every farm (even every section of a farm) and that every month would likely be different from the last. It seems like it would take some haying and trial and some time getting to know your own particular cattle, soil, seasons and grass. 
How do you feel about pasturing cattle through wooded areas? I have a family member who is having to do this right now and they're having success with it, but of course, they're only in that area in the summer.
Would you be willing to give another example of dividing a property?
The link below is a property that is for sale in our area. It's the only one right now that has some grass along with the row crop fields. I drew it out on graph paper so you could see exactly where the water is. Each square is 100' and the dotted line is water that may be seasonal. It looks like it might be a spring since it sprouts up in the middle of that field. I was able to use our county's aireal photo system to measure exactly where the water is on the property, so that's exact to about 10'. The width of the creek is sometimes thicker than reality, but the distance from the edge of the property is exact. You can assume the grass and cattle are the exact same as yours if that makes it easier.
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/Goddess_Kristie/Farm/?action=view&current=Picture1092.jpg
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/Goddess_Kristie/Farm/?action=view&current=Picture1097.jpg


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## agmantoo

I will work on the layout tonight.
Having hay is every beginning rotational grazers security blanket and is necessary IMO. What I encourage is to see how long you can go without using the hay and still meet the feed needs. Once you see that it will work for all but the worst of weather then plan for that. If your area has just cold weather and little snow maybe you would want to feed hay in say Nov and Dec and let the cattle harvest the stockpiled forage in Jan and Feb when the cold is severe and retain enough hay should it snow more than a foot. Less than a foot deep the cattle will have no problem pushing the snow aside and grazing and you are inside where it is toasty. I give my herd access to shade and to the undergrowth that is in the small areas that are wooded. I want the underbrush removed and I have no problem with a cow resting in the shade chewing her cud. Given good pasture a cow can graze enough forage in two each 45 minute periods within 24 hours to meet her needs. IMO the old comments about white cows eating during the heat periods of the day have no merit. At least not in growing zone 7 or cooler. My cattle will eat acorns as they fall and with a gradual introduction to acorns they have never exhibited a problem so that does not concern me either. Foresters state that that cattle traffic is detrimental to the trees. Brief periods in the woods is not a problem that I have observed.


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## agmantoo

I finished my chores early and it is chilly out so I came here. I have worked on the dividing of the farm you posted and I have a proposal. Obviously without actually seeing the place there could be major flaws in what I am going to post. The farm has ample water and rather convenient water. Additionally the farm allows for good rectangular permanent paddocks that can be further dividing using polywire. There will be some changes that occur over time. As the pastures get developed and as the land improves I am of the opinion that the drainage will minimize and that the area between the two fields in the top left can be converted to a grassed waterway. When this happens the drainage will cease due to the water being absorbed into the ground as the grasses break through any hardpan that exists. Areas next to the trees can be improved and the paddocks squared to improve the open rectangles creating more grazing. The bold black lines are the lanes but they are not to scale. I would suggest making the lanes not less than 30 feet wide as you may want to take a piece of large machinery down them someday. You can use the lanes as a paddock so no grazing is lost. The arrows in red are the direction the the polywire partions should be moved. The polywire can be strung to where 300 feet is partitioned off and will carry power adequately to control the cattle. The dotted lines are for the permanent paddock single wire partitions. Obviously the perimeter of the farm needs a permanent fence completely around the acreage. I did not calculate the total acreage but it appears to me to be large enough to handle enough cattle to create a recognizable income as a farm and not to be a hobby farm. If you have any questions just ask. My ability to scan and post is nonexistent. The pic from my cellphone is the best I can provide since my scanner died.


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## agmantoo

GoddessKristie
The grass you see will not support cattle that are accustomed to a grain diet. Nor will the grass on my place carry a large frame high milking cow. However, having the right size cattle that have been selected to flourish on such grass will produce a product that is marketable and marketable at a decent profit off of land that is unsuitable for grain production. These cattle are the result of culling hard those animals that cannot hold their body condition while lactating and remain in condition for breeding back while producing a marketable calf that feed lot buyers will pay a premium for. The cow one paid a premium for and produces a big fat calf is a liability if she does not bred back and should be culled. She is only permitted to stay in the herd provided a live calf is produced every time she is bred. Rather than keep the best cattle it is more effective and far simpler to take out those that fail any of these traits. Once you get the right cattle for your farm many of the problems associated with having a herd will disappear. My old cows teach the calves to eat the brown fescue and to push snow aside to find grass underneath. The calves inherit the ability to maintain condition and to tolerate the endophyte problems associated for infected fescue. This is the reason that I stated earlier that I would like to cull Salatin's herd. He does a lot of things right but IMO his herd is significantly lacking as they are unsuitable to what he is providing. It is imperative to address these issues just like it is essential to establish good management practices if one is going to utilize rotational grazing to the optimum. If you are going to run a hobby farm just ignore all of the above. If you are in this for a profit you may need to pay attention. We will see lots of conventional producers fall to the wayside if fertilizer, grain and hay remain at the current or higher prices. Here is an older cow teaching a calf that still has a dry umbilical cord attached to start eating the stockpiled fescue.









Pictured is the type of cow hard culling will produce that can thrive on stockpiled grass through Winter, hold body condition, produce a nice calf and be bred back at the same time. This picture was taken yesterday. Does anyone have any pictures of cows coming out of a hard Winter without grain that I can view? I like to compare to see where my cattle rank. These cattle are provided with grass, salt, minerals, no hay, have not been wormed, no shots, no vet, no commercial fertilizer on the grass and a carrying capacity of more than 100 head on 161 acres of pasture.


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## res48

I remember you saying you would like to cull Salatins herd. At the time I sorta wondered why and now am curious by your statement that his cows are unsuitable for what he is providing. Could you expand on that a bit.Thanks


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## jtsummie

agman I'm reading All Flesh is Grass and I seam to be reading alot of what you speak about... as I have stated earlier I'm 25 and still in the city, but a man can dream huh!! Thanks again for your great insight.


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## godsgapeach

Hi, Agman. I've just spent a few hours going over your previous posts and I've got a new list of questions whenever you have the time. 

1) You said your farm has rolling hills. I was wondering if you subdivide your paddocks by terrain type? That is something that has been mentioned in some of the things I've read--that they don't graze differing terrains in the same way, so won't graze it down evenly.

2) What type of grounding system do you use for your fence?

3) What is your preferred type of insulator? I know you said the "best you can find" but I'd just like to know which you like and why. 

4) Can you take a pic of your gate again--specifically so I can see what you meant about rotating the hairpin so it won't fall off. 

5) What type of tensioner do you use?

6) Have you purchased from Pharo before? I'm very interested and the pick up wouldn't be a problem, but I wouldn't be able to go for the sale. I was just curious about their "stay-at-home" option.

Thanks as always!


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## agmantoo

res48
From the pics that I have seen of Salatin's cattle it appears as if he just bought cattle with little understanding of what it takes to have an efficient herd that can achieve sustainability without sacrifice of quality. Using a descriptive phrase from another poster he has IMO a herd of "mutts". The only consistency that I noticed was that they were a group of cattle that were of uniform low quality. At a livestock auction they would sell on the bottom end and if sold directly I doubt that an informed buyer would be a repeat customer. I do believe Salatin would attempt to feed his stock and that he would strive to provide decent forage. Regardless of the forage being provided, poor selection and unadapted genetics are going to yield poor results and that is what I saw in his cattle. I thought he would have known this.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

1) You said your farm has rolling hills. I was wondering if you subdivide your paddocks by terrain type? That is something that has been mentioned in some of the things I've read--that they don't graze differing terrains in the same way, so won't graze it down evenly.
I can see if you had major elevation differences there may be a difference in the grazing but the hills here are just that. Having water too far away will have an impact but the rolling hills here do not. If you control the allocation of forage they will graze uniformly as all the forage will be consumed between daily movements.

2) What type of grounding system do you use for your fence? I ground according to most of the charger manufacturers recommendation. 3 each 8' galvanized rods with 10' separations using galvanized lugs to secure the galvanized wire to each ground rod in series. I also ground the top and the bottom wire on the perimeter fence as well as I ground the metal fence posts. I still get chargers hit by lightning. Brand or features built into the chargers seem to have no effect. I do like chargers that have fuses as they do give some protection as I have a lot of fuses that blow and those chargers often continue to work when the blown fuses are replaced.

3) What is your preferred type of insulator? I know you said the "best you can find" but I'd just like to know which you like and why. I use the old porcelin donut style. They will break but the high tensile wire will not cut into them as it will with plastic. Also, they are cheap and readily available. The quality is consistent.

4) Can you take a pic of your gate again--specifically so I can see what you meant about rotating the hairpin so it won't fall off. Yes, I will do this tomorrow if I do not forget.

5) What type of tensioner do you use? I buy the stainless steel ones from Kencove. I also will use the all aluminum version. I do not like the ones that have galvanized steel as part of their components as the galvanizing is low quality and rusts. I always buy galvanized products that have grade 3 galvanizing, it costs more but is justifiable.

Have you purchased from Pharo before? To date I have not. I have met him but have only seen pics of his stock. Realize his stock is grown on a grass that is totally different that what we have. He is now contracting cattle grown to his requirements in Missouri that are grown on fescue. I do believe that obtaining a bull from him is your best opportunity to upgrade your entire herd in the shortest time. I also feel that it is essential to address doing this ASAP. My choice would be to obtain a frame 3 bull, one that is polled and black with a large gut and calving eze or small calf weight history. Look is his composite group or his black Angus. If you call earlybefore the upcoming sale, and talk to Kit I do think he will make an effort to select you an animal he thinks would meet your needs. Specifically ask him personally to make the selection. Be prepared when you call to define your herd to him candidly. He thinks red cattle tolerate heat better. I have not researched the color absorbtion of black versus red. I do know that leaves are green because it better absorbs sun light than black. You ever see any living black leaves? I also know that silver reflects heat better than white but I have not seen any silver cows either. I have seen some gray ones however. : ) 
Remember, I do want you to cull as much of the herd as permitted. And as I stated above, Look at the calf, look at its mother. If the calve is OK and the mother is out of condition cull both of them. You saw the pic above with the market size calf still nursing and the condition the of cow is nearly as fit as if she did not have a marketable calf. That is what you want in a cow. She is not to be over 50 inches, but 48 inches or less is preferred, This height is at the top of the hips


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
Here is the response on the hairpin modification.
These hairpins are used to hold the permanent paddock partition fence to the PVC drilled posts. Instead of using gates, I simple pull the hairpin from the post, place a PVC 1 1/2 inch pipe that is about 8 feet tall over the post. The end of the pipe a V cut into the end that is placed upward. I lift the wire and place the wire into the V and the cattle walk under the wire to go to water or the next paddock. The hairpin that is pulled from the post is readily lost and I am always concerned with hardware disease and a cow could readily consume the hairpin. 

Here is a hairpin as purchased
and here is the as purchased hairpin installed, this is typical 









The installation above will permit the hairpin to be lost from the paddock wire. To prevent that I modify the hairpin by wrapping one of the leads around the wire to form an "eye"









Then when I install the captive hairpin should it come loose from the post it is retained on the wire. Here is the altered hairpin installed. Obviously I could improve the strength of the mounted hairpin but remember we will be taking the hairpin out numerous times as we graze or water and move the cattle.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agman! I see exactly what you mean.

Another question, if you don't mind... Do you keep your 3 strands of polywire and your pigtail posts set up in each paddock or have a few set up and move them around?

I've looked over lots of fencing catalogs and Kencoves is the easiest for me to navigate. I wondered about their spinner. And I've seen the Bekaert wire at a few places in town. I'm just trying to get my list together of what we need to get started. 

When I emailed Kit (when I requested their catalog) I gave him a bit of info on what we're looking for, but I'll definitely fill him and request that he personally choose what we need.

Thanks again for your advice!


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## agmantoo

I only use a single strand of polywire to partition the paddocks. As you know during periods of allocating stockpiled grass I move the cattle daily. Typically I go to the paddock and install a partition of polytwine ahead of the paddock just grazed. I then take down the polytwine that held them since the previous day and the cattle move onto the new ungrazed area. If the weather is threatening, I often install the polytwine I took down ahead of the new area being grazed so that the next day all I have to do is take down one strand and they cattle move quickly and I am back in the truck. I have 4 reels of polytwine so that it gives me a lot of flexibility. Additionally, I have maybe 60 pigtail posts. When I took a few days off I partitioned 4 areas to be grazed so that the person that I got to check on the cattle only had to take down 1 partition each day and did not have to setup a grazing area. In the layout that I did for you most of your partitions will be under 400 ft long if I recall correctly. The two parallel permanent single strand wires will do most of the work and conduct the electricity from the fence charger. The polywire will just jumper the power from one side of the wire to the other side. You will run the polywire perpendicular to the wire and you will place the pigtail posts every 20 to 30 feet depending on the terrain.


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## godsgapeach

That makes sense. I was just curious if you kept each set up for its next use. I knew that that would require extra expense as well, and I'm trying to be as low cost as possible as well!

We're expecting some rain (we need it!) and cold over the next few days but I'm hoping to get out and do some repairs on the existing barbwire once the rain passes. I'm ready to get started and our weekends are finally freed up for the next month or so.

I'm sure you're aware of some things I either haven't asked or considered--about fencing equipment, things to avoid, etc. Do you have any other words of wisdom?

Thanks as always!


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## godsgapeach

Rats, just thought of another question...

When you partition off your paddocks do you use a straight line/diagonal pattern? 

Like |/|/|/| moving to a point one day and straightening the next (I had this better before I posted the first time, but it didn't line up right in the actual post).

Or do you do a more rectangular partition?

Thanks again!


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## agmantoo

I know what you mean. I try to keep all fence posts, permanent ones and drilled PVC ones opposite each other in the permanent parallel wire runs. I use the cheap electric extension cord reels sold by Lowes to hold the polywire. I like to use the drilled posts to hold the reels once I pull the polytwine across a paddock. If the size of the area to be grazed meets the requirement for the day aligns with the post that is great and I run square across the pasture. If the area needs to be bigger or smaller I may run diagonally across the pasture. As I move along I attempt to square back up if the situation permits. If the grass is tall or if it is sparce there are always reasons to alter the size of the area to be grazed. If the cattle are anxious to get to new grass then they are not getting enough to eat. If they mull around or seem slow to move then you can cut back. Did I tell you that a cow needs 3% of her weight in forage each day? That is a lot of grass. How far are you from Charlotte NC? I do not know of anything specific that I can share but like you I do know other questions will surface. Maybe some others will drop in and post a few questions. I know that there remains a lot of interest but we are the only ones posting. We are getting a hundred plus hits some days. I would like to get as many questions asked and responded to as possible so this may possibly end up as a sticky on rotational grazing.


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## ds40

Agman, this is very good info, thank you for sharing. What are you looking for on your fescue (stage of growth) when you bushog to keep it vegative and what height do you bushog a paddock? Do you clip after every rotation? How often do you drag manure piles?


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
I have not posted recently, but I am reading daily. Thanks for the info.


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## Trisha in WA

I am finally getting my supplies ready to start my rotational grazing here on my little acreage. I also drew out my plan and now have figured out how I will be able to incorporate my 2 horses in the plan so that they will be able to get some exercise and still not over graze my paddocks. 
Thank you so much for your continued Q & A. Thank you for the recent comment about using the extension cord reals! That was a great tip! I am looking forward to implementing our plan and see how it all works out.
Trisha in WA


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## Trisha in WA

Forgot to ask...do you think for just 1 cow and 2 or 3 calves that I can keep my paddocks small... like around 30'x70'? My plan is to keep them in those paddocks only 12 hours and bring them back to the barn for the opposite 12 hours. If you will recall I have a dairy cow that I will be milking. Once the calves are weaned they will be in the rotation with my milk cow, but until then they will go out separately from her. I will have a small portable shelter on skids for them so they don't get caught in the heavy rains we sometimes get her in WA. I have no trees on my land for any kind of shelter.


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## agmantoo

Welcome aboard ds40, looking to hear more from you in the future.

I clip the fescue for more than a single reason. From the research I have read the endophyte is stored in the stem and in the seedhead. Though my cattle tolerate the endophyte there is no need to accentuate the problem so I bushhog. I do occasionally, mostly in the past, have a few cases of pinkeye. It is thought that the fescue stems probe the area around the eye contributing to pinkeye so clipping may benefit. Additionally, clipping the fescue affords a chance to hit the tall weeds a major blow. However, the main reason for bushhogging is to keep the fescue growing and forming leaves instead of stems. It is hot and often dry here in late July and August and I have to take land out of fescue production if I am to grow a hot weather forage and it takes too long to get the land back into fescue to benefit. I get better results by doing a fescue stockpiling of sorts in June and early July and limping through the dormant month and a half period referenced above. To achieve that and to answer your question I clip the stem and seed head off above the leaves. Yes , I will sometimes bushhog where the cattle have grazed and again above the leaves of the grazed grass. When this happens the cattle pats and the grass the manure had covered will not be eaten and I drop down to the tops of the grazed off grass and this gets the uneaten grass and at the same time hits the weeds the hardest. You can eliminate most weed problems by forcing the weeds to deplete the stored energy in their roots. Few plants can survive having been forced to use the energy stored in the roots three times in succession. It is for this reason that paddocks of fescue should not be grazed or clipped below 3 inches. A drag harrow is drug over the cow pats if there is a manure buildup to distribute the manure. Occasionally the dung beetles will reduce the cow pats to where I do not need to drag the harrow. I was told in a open meeting by a most prominent cattleman that I should not bushhog. I recognize and appreciate his expertise in genetics but he needs to broaden his horizons when it comes to raising grass, especially fescue.


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## agmantoo

Trisha in WA
I think what you propose will work fine and that the results will be greater than your highest expectation. Your feed costs will be minimal, the animals will be clean and healthy, there should be no odor and the quality and quantity of the milk the absolute best. I think the 30 x 70 will carry 4 adult cows. During the highest growth period you may let the horses in briefly, say and hour or so just while they eat and then take them out before they destroy the ground or reduce the size of the paddocks to create more in number. For now a 22 x 70 should work. Good luck. Keep me aware of how it is working. Thanks.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I think for sure this thread should be made sticky. You've shared a boatload of info! Is there anythings we can do to influence that decision?

I'm probably 4 hours from Charlotte. Pretty central GA here. I wish I knew of a grass farmer around here whose farm I could check out.

Another question: Do you have one of those disk things to measure how much forage you've got, or a grazing stick, or do you just eyeball it? 

On the pinkeye issue, we had the first case just last year that we'd had in years. I remember as a kid having to put the patches on. 

We've had crazy weather today--tornado watches/warnings tonight--but I still managed to get nearly 2 miles of fence tightened up and reclipped until I ran out of clips. The deer (and of course the wayward cows) take their toll on it through the winter. Agman, you mentioned that some folks don't like working with high tensile. I can't imagine disliking it any more than I do barbwire!


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## agmantoo

I am another 45 minutes north of Charlotte. I was going to ask you to visit but that is too far. I remain willing to answer any questions that surface that I can answer and will continue to support in whatever manner I can during the transition. I consider the disc thingy a gimmick since you can readily train your eyes and they will always be with you. To my awareness there are two types of pinkeye. The common type will spontaneously heal itself. That is the reason that the many "fixes" used seem to work. Should you have an animal with pinkeye do nothing the first two weeks. If the eye has not healed then start medicating as your animal has the uncommon type and will need treating. Knowing this will save you a lot of effort and concern. I also do not like barbwire and I really dislike repairing it. Repairing the high tensile is a breeze. I intended to make you a list of the essential tools needed to work the high tensile. Some of the tools are probably not available locally and others that you may perceive you need could be a waste. I will get you a list, one that includes a few expensive tools such as a pair of $52 pliers. You have learned by now how thrifty I am so I think you realize that if I own a pair they are essential.


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## agmantoo

GoddessKristie's enthusiasm must have waned as I am unaware of any comment on the layout I suggested. To the others here that are considering going to rotational grazing did you see the recommendation and understand what I was promoting? Initially I attempted to replicate what I thought others were doing as I saw pictures and read articles. Certainly my approach would not be applicable in many situations but where the acreage is small and the property is to be intensely utilized this method works. The polywire has the stainless steel conductors woven into the poly and the wires are very fine. It is the diameter of a wire along with the material that determines how well it conducts. Polywire does not conduct all that good. It is essential to get not less than 3500+ volts to the far end. I have the highest output solar charger that I can justify and I have a very hot mains charger. By keeping the polywire under 500 feet both chargers will function. Also, if the herd is less than 100 head the cattle do not get too strung out if the paddocks are in the ~300' x ~80' to 100' size. Due to earlier errors and failure to realize some of the failings in my original setup has caused me to rework many of my original paddocks. I have gotten rather good at rewinding the high tensile wire.


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## ds40

Thanks Agman. Did your annual ryegrass reseed itself for the following year. Also was there a noticeable difference in the fescue interseeded with ryegrass.


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## ArmyDoc

Agmantoo,

What density are you grazing? I thought I had it figured out, but maybe not. I can't find the post now, but if I recall correctly, you were running about 100 cattle on about 170 acres, or about 1 per 1.7 acres. Figureing you are rotating on a 40 day basis (rotating daily and returning to start every 40 days), I estimated you were putting the 100 cattle into 4 acre temporary sections, or about 25 per acre. Is this right?

But then you said:



agmantoo said:


> .... I have done this so long I can judge from looking at the available grass in the areas being stockpiled as to how many acres to accumulate for Winter. Repeating from previous, Winter will be not more than 115 days of grazing stockpiled fescue and may be as short as 90. With good tall grass I know I can get by on less than 7/10ths of an acre per day. Doing the math then I need to set aside up to 80 acres for the worst case of 115 days. I have also come to realize that I can help the situation by not grazing the beginning of Winter non stockpiled areas to the ground and I can get some growth on the end of Fall and the beginning of Winter warm days as a safety net. Using this safety net approach I have ceased to stockpile as many acres as stated above and take some risk by only stockpiling approximately 60 acres or less. Always remember that I am attempting to efficiently use the grass available as this lets me carry more animals per acre thus creating more calves to market....


So, if you are stockpiling 60 to 80 acres, does that mean that your rotating on the remaining 90 to 100 only? That would mean 100 cattle on 2.5 acres or so, or about 40 cattle per acre. Or is it that most of the growing season you run 25 per acre, using all fields, and then when you get close to the winter you go to running at 40 per acre on only on 90-100 acres, and let them graze lower than normal, while letting the winter pastures grow taller?

Or am I way off and it's something entirely different?

Thansk,


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## ds40

Agman, I saw in a post where you were grazing about 11,000 square feet for 24 hours. With your one hundred adult head herd that is 1/4 acre per day yielding 51/2 to 61/2 ton of stockpile per acre. Wouldn't it be great if it all yielded that good. You could cut the stockpile acres in half. I've seen fescue stockpile be nearly that good with 2 ton of litter and plenty of rain and a warm fall. One year in a small pasture I measured the average height to be 32". That leaves 29" of grazing at 400lbs per inch equals almost 6 ton to the acre. I have not duplicated it since.


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## godsgapeach

Man I wish I were closer. We'd definitely come to check out your operation!

When I first saw the disk thing, "gimmick" is what I thought too. I can tell if there's grazing and I can also tell if they're satisfied by what I offer the herd from day to day. If they're hungry give them more space and if they're satisfied we're all good.

As for the pinkeye, there was only one case last year and it was apparently from the fescue hitting him in the eye. We don't do patches anymore--I just remember that we'd done that when I was a kid. I also remember the patches falling off and the big glue circle that was left... Back then we also had lots of cases at a time.

I would be grateful for a list of supplies whenever you get a chance. Could you also indicate your sources (particularly for the 3/4" drilled posts--I've found other sizes but not 3/4")? We have a little store here in town--not a chain--that could be helpful. My only problem with them is there is no product list. They can get most anything available, but I have no way of knowing what they've got unless I specifically ask for it. They are able to get Pennington's seed for pretty cheap since they're in town--they just pick it up from the warehouse as needed--and they do have fencing supplies, minerals, etc. They may be helpful--but maybe not ;->.


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## agmantoo

ds40 
I do have some volunteer ryegrass but it has not done very well. The cold weather has kept it suppressed. I am seeing as much improvement in greening up for Spring from the fescue and some emergence of clover and vetch. The fescue is rooted so deep that the ryegrass cannot get a foothold in over coming it.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
I am being as truthful as possible but the situation changes continuously and what I post one month may not apply the next. I have 100 plus cattle at all times. I now have had a GPS layout made of the farm and I know for certain that there is 161 acres total in the grazed areas. Previously I was depending on dated information from lime and fertilizer spreaders and from when I was raising soybeans using a drill with an acre meter. The cattle are all in a single herd. In Fall and early Winter I was grazing the herd in a 24 hr. period on as little as 7/10ths of an acre average and sometimes far less when the weather remained warm and the grass was excellent. As Winter came on the cattle needed more energy and at times the stockpiled grass was not as good in all areas grazed and I would have to increase the allocation. I had set aside 54 acres to be solely for stockpiling and I had 27 acres that was grazed late but had time to recover some before going dormant. 
These two areas were to provide the bulk of the forage for a 90 day Winter. During the period that I was letting the grass grow for stockpiling, I utilized the balance of the acreage by increasing the frequency that portion was grazed. Cattle need 3% of their body weight per day to maintain condition and since the cattle remain in decent condition I calculate that they must be getting not less than 3000 lbs of forage per day. I my ability to put this info in written form is lacking. If I remain unclear ask for an explanation.


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## agmantoo

ds40
The single biggest problem I have with the rotational grazing is my inability to balance the available forage to the needs of the cattle over a 12 month span. I either have too much or insufficient amounts of forage. I have no irrigation and we have droughts of various magnitudes. I can get through a drought that lasts for the Summer but I absolutely must have water in late Summer and early Fall. In 2003 the county I live in was declared a disaster area. I sailed right through as if nothing changed. In 2007 the extended drought sent me down the tubes. I was the last person in the area that had to seek outside sourced feed but I hit bottom and had to buy feed.


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## agmantoo

Drilled 5 ft post
http://electric-horse-fence.com/ele...cccessories/fiberglass_posts.htm#threequarter

Non Drilled posts I have never used these
http://www.powerflexfence.com/gpage.html2.html

This is the tensioner handle
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Wire+Tighteners_detail_TFU.php


This is the pliers you will need and cherish
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Wire+Cutters_detail_TCTM.php

This is the post driver for the pvc posts
http://www.kencove.com/fence/T-Post+Drivers_detail_TPR.php

This is the volmeter tester. It is essential
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Voltmeters_detail_VPX.php

This is the crimp tool
http://www.kencove.com/fence/detail.php?code=TKC

The post driver below is homemade. It is lightweight and works good to drive the pvc/fiberglass line posts










Here is the homemade trailer I use solely for fence work. The spinny jenny is for feeding out the high tensile wire. The reason for all the junk in the trailer is that I throw nothing down in the pasture and I pick up others trash as I go. The spinning jenny was made from a discarded office chair. Never attempt to unroll a roll of the high tensile wire without a spinny jenny. If you do you have just wasted a roll of wire.


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## godsgapeach

Wow Agman, I wasn't expecting you to go to the trouble of adding links!

Can you tell me why you prefer this type of pliers? I see they have the side cutter but I'd like to know the benefits of this specific type as opposed to a regular pair of fencing pliers. (Standard 10 inch with a staple prong) I'm just curious--not doubting ;->.

I've already got the post driver, so that's at least one thing...

You said you've never used the powerflex posts--I've seen the catalog. They're pretty pricey. 

I do know the necessity of the voltmeter. Just one of those expensive things we've gotta have.

And yeah, I understand the wire will make a super-size slinky if you don't have a spinning jenny. I like your option though!
Thanks as always!


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## agmantoo

I do not think you have tried to work the high tensile wire. It is mean to cut and these pliers are designed to give more leverage. For a person my size I have a lot of grip. People at work use to come to me anytime they wanted to cut a bolt off in a threaded bolt cutter. I can cut the wire with one hand with these pliers. I doubt that you or me can repeatedly cut the high tensile with both hands with the old barb wire pliers. You can also hold the wire as you work it with this single set of pliers. Holding the wire is essential when forming it around an insulator or making a tight loop. Remember to always wear safety glasses with this wire. I am a risk taker normally but I do not chance this wire. PS... I posted another source for the line post above. Yes they are expensive but they will last a long time and since you do not have to buy an insulator you can deduct that expense from the price of the post.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> I am being as truthful as possible but the situation changes continuously and what I post one month may not apply the next. I have 100 plus cattle at all times. I now have had a GPS layout made of the farm and I know for certain that there is 161 acres total in the grazed areas. Previously I was depending on dated information from lime and fertilizer spreaders and from when I was raising soybeans using a drill with an acre meter. The cattle are all in a single herd. In Fall and early Winter I was grazing the herd in a 24 hr. period on as little as 7/10ths of an acre average and sometimes far less when the weather remained warm and the grass was excellent. As Winter came on the cattle needed more energy and at times the stockpiled grass was not as good in all areas grazed and I would have to increase the allocation. I had set aside 54 acres to be solely for stockpiling and I had 27 acres that was grazed late but had time to recover some before going dormant.
> These two areas were to provide the bulk of the forage for a 90 day Winter. During the period that I was letting the grass grow for stockpiling, I utilized the balance of the acreage by increasing the frequency that portion was grazed. Cattle need 3% of their body weight per day to maintain condition and since the cattle remain in decent condition I calculate that they must be getting not less than 3000 lbs of forage per day. I my ability to put this info in written form is lacking. If I remain unclear ask for an explanation.


Wow. I was familiar with the concept of "Mob" grazing. Just never thought of putting that many cows on an acre or less.

The 3000 lbs of forrage per day is interesting. How do you calculate how much forage is in a field?


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## godsgapeach

You're right, I haven't worked high tensile yet. As I said, I was just curious. Your response makes sense though. Even when working barb wire the old style are frustrating.

I've already got my safety glasses, too.

With the non-drilled posts, at what measure do you drill? And just one hole through?

And are cotter pins the same as the hair pins you mentioned? 

Thanks!


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## agmantoo

one hole 39 inches above ground level


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## agmantoo

Kencove refers to the pin as a cotter pin
http://www.kencove.com/fence/detail.php?code=FCPCR


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc,
I have been doing this so long I can estimate the needs. For those starting out I tell them to allocate too small of an area and let the cattle on the grass and keep enlarging the area until the animals have eaten the forage down to 3 inches tall in 45 minutes. Calculate that area and double it for a days grazing. Then monitor the cattle. If the cattle the next day rush onto the area then enough area was not given and increase the area. If the cattle did not graze the area down to 3 inches and are not enthusiastic when moving onto the ungrazed grass then too large of an area was allocated and reduce the area the next day.


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## Oxankle

I've read this entire thread tonight. You have confirmed what the best of the old cattlemen tell me. They all want small cows, and black sells better at the sale. Never buy a bull raised on feed, and especially not a "gain test" bull. 

No matter how big a cow is, her calf should be sold at around 550 pounds. A small cow will raise a calf that size even if it takes her a little longer. 

I'm working with a tiny place, 40 acres, but have it partitioned off into small paddocks. I raise registered angus, sell all the bulls I can raise and get good prices for any culls. Moving toward uniformity and desired size thru AI. Right now my cattle are eating honeysuckle and fescue but I cannot stockpile five months feed so I buy or barter for hay. I try to buy crabgrass hay off wheat fields. Over time this results in moving fertilizer from the wheat field to my pastures. 

I use plastic insulators on posts made of five foot sections of rebar for my permanent dividers and large black locust posts (cut here on the place) for ends. It does not matter a lot if they lean a bit as the tensioner and an old hood spring on each run keeps the line tight. The spring provides some cushion when deer hit the fence. One big Parmak charger works the whole place, but I keep a couple of battery powered Parmaks and a Gallager solar for special work and lightning insurance. I like Parmak because they will service a burned out unit at a very low cost, returning it with the latest modifications to the product. 

Thanks for taking the time to give us this very practical advice. I suspect that several of us who have read your earlier posts have been moving your way for a couple of years. 
Ox


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## ArmyDoc

Thanks Agmantoo. Your strategy makes sense. By the way, what is your calving season? Do you expose your cows to a bull for a set time period (2-3month?) so as to give birth every spring (Fall?), twice a year, or year round?

Thanks again,

ArmyDoc


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
When I was into grain production I had limited storage on the farm and often I had to sell part of the crop at harvest time. Seldom was this the time when prices were up, normally because to market was overwhelmed with grain being sold it was the reverse. I feel this is also the situation with selling calves that are sold into seasonal markets. Against the recommendations of other persons in conventional production of feeder calves and against the recommendation of the Ag persons at the state level I decided to calve year round. I was told this would not work and that the calves would not thrive it hot weather. I observed that in India no one was limiting those free roaming cattle from reproducing. To date I have not had a problem. I market calves anytime I have a large enough load to justify sending them to market. I feel that instead of getting the high or low of the market I should get an average over time. This method gives a cash flow over the year and it also lets me vary the grazing load on the paddocks. If I have an over abundance of grass I may hold the calves longer and conversely if the grass is not available I market early. As I stated previously, matching the grass to the consumption remains my biggest obstacle. Making and feeding hay is a solution to this but for some reason I keep resisting doing that. I know if I give in I will cease to try to overcome the problem.


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## ArmyDoc

It certainly seems like the lowest energy / most efficient way to manage the herd. Sepparating bulls from the cow herd or AI would be a lot more work. 

The other arguements I've heard say you should shoot for spring birth, "to mimic what happens in nature" (presumably deer) which corresponds better with the way the grass grows - more when you need more for milk and later for the calves, less in the winter when the calves are gone to market.

It sounds good, but if your trying to mimic "what happens in nature" it seems to me you'd do what you are doing and just leave the bulls in with the cows. Do you see the births clustering in one season, or is all throughoutt the year?

Also, I've heard that you get a better price at market if you have a group of calves that are the same size & age. Any comment on that?


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc, my thoughts are as follows

"The other arguements I've heard say you should shoot for spring birth, "to mimic what happens in nature" (presumably deer) which corresponds better with the way the grass grows - more when you need more for milk and later for the calves, less in the winter when the calves are gone to market."
I think that location would have more impact on Spring or Fall birthing. If I had late Spring calving, around late April, then come late July and August I would be into the worst part of the year for me to have good grass and this is when the calf would start needing the forage. Don't forget, I am not a conventional cattleman. I have good grass, growing or stockpiled, 10 plus months per year. I do not want the cow to milk too heavily. I want her to give enough milk to get the calf off to a good start but by the time the calf is large enough to take in a lot of milk I want the calf eating grass as the main part of its diet. Making lots of milk off grass is very demanding on the cow. I want the cow building body condition for her and the unborn calf she is carrying. She has an encore performance in 11 months!


"Do you see the births clustering in one season, or is all throughoutt the year?"
I saw a grouping follow the 2007 drought. The drought hit so hard that the cows that were nursing calves lost body condition and did not cycle timely and when they did there was a number of them that cycled at the same time. I think the cycle will break as I market the calves. Some of the cows in this group were the older cows in the herd. I may cull some of the older cows. Prior to the drought I had about the same number of calves each month. This created a uniform workload on the bull and I did not need a lot of bulls. Feeding one less bull has advantages.


"I've heard that you get a better price at market if you have a group of calves that are the same size & age"
This doesn't apply to me as I market through a conventional sale barn that sales a lot of cattle each week. People that sell privately and can put together a truck load of uniform calves do get a premium. I do not have enough heifers or steers at one time to accomplish this. I do like for my animals to cross a set of certified scales. Things can and do happen. I also like getting my check within 24 hours from a state monitored sale barn. When grain farming, I once had a grain broker that had my soybeans in storage go belly up. That can be more than worrysome!


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## agmantoo

On post #176 I errored when I stated the height of the temporary fence using the polywire. I knew that I had read this

"1/4 inch X 39 inch pig tail step in post
Insulated loop protects the wire from shorting against the post and allows for fast and easy wire insertion
Ideal for managed intensive grazing applications
Post is made from 1/4 inch spring steel large foot allows for easy installation even in hard ground" when I ordered the posts. 

The total length of the post is 39 inches not the height of the poly wire when supported by the pigtail posts. When I am at the beef farm I will try to take a measuring tape and report the correct height which will be the 39 inches minus the length that is underground when the posts is inserted into position. godsgapeach, please acknowledge that you have seen this reply provided you do. Thanks.


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## godsgapeach

Gotcha, Agman. I knew that the pigtail posts Lowes carries are 39" (total), but didn't think about it in relation to the non-drilled.

Thanks for catching the difference.

Another question when you have time. When you do feed hay, do you keep rotating? Or do you keep the herd in one convenient location for feeding?


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach, I have not fed any hay for a number of years. During the drought of 2007 I rotated pastures until all my grass was exhausted. I then arranged to buy cotton gin trash and cotton seed to see the cattle through. Near the end of the drought I did buy some peanut hay as there was very little hay regardless of type. At about the time the drought broke I still had not fed the peanut hay. Taking this into consideration I guess the best answer i can submit is that I will totally exhaust the grass and only then supplement feed. More than 5 years ago I would feed some hay early in the Winter to preserve what stockpiled grass that I had and then I would feed the grass during the most adverse weather to avoid having to get out into the weather. 

I had two men visit here today that were cattle men that were into genetics to see the farm. Never have I had so many difficult questions asked. They asked me a lot of questions that I had never knew existed regarding my herd. These men are into reproduction genetics and I am into terminal feeder calves. I could not answer some of their questions. The surprising thing from their visit was that they commented that they had never seen anyone implementing rotational grazing to the extent they saw today. Their volunteered main comment was that they felt that I could carry more than 20% more cattle than I have if I fine tuned the genetics of my herd. These men felt that my herd still needs refining in that it is not uniform enough. When I told them that my genetics came from a group of feeder heifer calves bought at a sale barn they were amazed. I know that I still have too many frame 4 cows but I have limited myself to retaining only the best of my heifer calves and this is a slow process. I may attempt to accelerate this effort. These men did not like my new bull. I told them I was attempting to improve the calves that I send to the sale and their response was that it was not justified as I was not getting paid for the improvement. I do not know how my new bull is going to alter the future calves but the previous bulls I had fell apart on the fescue but I still sold calves that brought a good price. Personally, other than possibly losing the color black I doubt if the future calves will be less than the previous ones. I know I am a grass farmer and that my knowledge is weak when it comes to cattle genetics. I also know I have come a ways with, at best, marginal cows that have now adapted to my forage and with purchased expensive bulls that have disappointed me. I would appreciate hearing from those here that may have an opinion on the comments I just stated. Thanks


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## ds40

Has anyone attended Greg Judy or Chad Pennington seminars? My question is their stocking rates and number of moves per day. 1,000,000 lbs per acre = 1,000 cows = 43.56 sq ft per cow. 400,000 lbs per acre = 400 cows = 108.9 sq ft per cow. This is not much room for a cow. How many lbs per acre would their forage need to yield per acre to feed a cow considering trampling, soiling and leaving a 3" residue? Judy says he moves cattle twice daily stocking at 400,000 while Pennington shoots for 1,000,000 with multi moves per day. Judy says he is on 150 day rotations. Pennington is unclear in the articles I've read maybe a year or more.


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## agmantoo

ds40
From my crude math 316 sq. ft per 1000 lb cow per 24 hour period would the the absolute minimum that I could get by with with the optimum growth of forage. I cannot maintain that but in specific high producing segments of the paddocks and for short durations. The forage is not a constant and the forage will be available for grazing but for a segment of time out of the 150 days of rotation in most areas of the country. I think the wording of these achievements need to be scrutinized. I do know that I can sustainably run ~110,000 lbs of animals on 161 total acres, of which only 150 acres being currently grazed(11 being established), at the grazing rate of 1.5 acres/day for 365 days provided I get rain. None of these numbers are overstated but they may be slightly understated. I think these people are grazing an established area for a limited time then depopulating.


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## godsgapeach

I knew you'd said you hadn't fed hay in years. I was just wondering, in the event that you HAD to, if you'd still keep up the rotation so the herd could scout for ANY possible grazing or if you'd rather keep them in one general place.

In reading what you said about the genetics guys, you mentioned "I still have too many frame 4 cows." I'm confused. I thought that was what I should be shooting for. Granted that will take a LOOONG time for us, but if not frame 4s what is my goal again?


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
I would confine the herd to what I would designate as a feed lot in event I had to feed hay or a substitute. This would let me monitor the herd and they would use less energy with limited movement. I would not want the animals eating what grass that could survive into the ground. Once the cause for feeding hay subsided I would want and need to go back to rotational grazing ASAP as I would need to recover from the added expense of providing feed. I would have sold my feeder calves off early and I would have taken all but the best heifers to market as they are unproven producers. The very old cows that would be stressed would also be sold. I would attempt to source the least cost feed that would maintain the cattle. I learned during the drought of 2007 to not permit the cattle to loose condition to where they would delay heat cycles. To do so is false economy.
Regarding frame size 4. These people here yesterday may be genetic gurus but they knew little about grass and rotational grazing. I am unsure that my genetic requirements and theirs are one and the same. You have already shared with me that you want to restructure only a portion of your herd at this time. Had I told you to go lower than frame four I doubt that your family would concur. Plus, where would you get the replacements? Once you are convinced that the smaller cattle will produce and when you get a herd sire that is smaller you can start working toward the optimum size cow. I am not where I want to be with my herd and I knew that. I also know where I came from with the herd. I believe in not judging a man by where he is but by where he came from. As an example .....If a person was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and he still has a silver spoon in his mount what has he achieved? Whereas, a person that was born into adversity has risen to modest means has he not achieved greater? What I do know is that you will make money off what I have shared with you! Being profitable will let you adapt a herd to your situation and really that is what you need to achieve. No one but you and you family understand what you are willing to sacrifice to meet your goals. No one understands your finances like you and your family do. The best qualified people to make these decisions are you and your extended family. You just need me to help guide you to become more profitable as you work out these details. Am I right or wrong?


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## godsgapeach

THAT's what I was wondering about the feeding. I understand what you're saying about being able to monitor them if they're in one set place. Makes sense.

I guess what I meant about the frame size question is what size are you shooting for, if I'm shooting for 4? I was just surprised that you "still had too many" 4s. I know, realistically that it's going to take a long time to get to 4, but I thought that was about the right size for best production on grass. Apparently I missed something (shocker ;->).


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## agmantoo

There really is not much difference between a high frame 3 and a low frame 4 and you have to consider whether the animal is a male of female. Not discussed in the frame charts is the phenomenon that bovines in warm climates do not attain the body frame size of bovines in cold climates. If you buy a bull frame four from Kit Pharo its offspring most likely will be high side frame score 3 in Georgia. I think we may need to address what we can impact now and fret over something else in the future. Do you think you will be positioned to start rotational grazing with the Spring burst in grass growth and when are you going to start culling the herd?


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## godsgapeach

I'm hoping to be set up to at least get the herd off the bulk of the pasture within the next month to month and a half. I'm READY to get started. (Of course right now I'm fighting the respiratory garbage that is going around here. I got slammed the day after I worked on all the road-front fences. And no, thankfully, that's not a regular occurrence--normally pretty healthy!)

I'm checking locally and around Athens to see which products of the best quality/most reasonable price that I can find without paying shipping. I know that little store in town that I mentioned has Gallagher watering systems and I want to see if they can special order THE pliers and for how much. 

My brother's going to be off Wednesday afternoon and I'd like to walk through and earmark some of the girls to cull while he's home. Otherwise everything has to wait for the weekends since he commutes to work and is gone dark to dark right now. Might even be able to get them to the sale barn that afternoon, but that might be pushing my luck.

I'm ready for Pharo's catalog too just to see what they're offering this time around. I forget how many their latest newsletter said maybe 378 for sale?? I've looked pretty thoroughly through their fall listings online. If you can say bulls are "pretty," theirs sure are!


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## godsgapeach

Agman, if you don't mind could you tell us all this: Since you didn't come from a farm background, when you were starting up how did you determine that rotational grazing was the best thing for you to do, when most of the "experts" say otherwise?

I do think it's beneficial that you didn't have to UNlearn some of the things that we're going to be struggling with on our farm.

Thanks as always!


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## agmantoo

When I was row cropping and putting nearly my net worth to risk as I bought more fertilizer, more expensive seed and herbicide and kept trying to expand and not realizing more profit I concluded we as farmers were being sold a bill of goods. The suppliers were promoting getting bigger was better and would be more profitable. They just sold more! The "selling" was coming from all aspects but the biggest one IMO was coming from the government with the politicians needing to keep cheap food available for the voting public which in turn kept the politicians in office. Being very independent, I had never participated in the government programs and I was unable to to get ahead or compete with those that did participate. When I got my first computer, I managed to research and find those that did received support and I was awed by the dollar amounts but at the same time I realized they were the lackeys of the system. In this case the company store was the government and its programs, I knew I wanted nothing to do with it. I quickly saw that I too could work the system but in a different way and I quit grain farming, sold the equipment and subletted the land I had leased along with the land I owned. I was making about the same as I was farming but with none of the risks. Other farmers were taking the risks on the land I was being paid for by them to farm. Not leased is what I refer to as the beef farm and is too hilly to be farmed and I decided to put it to use. At first I tried raising feeder calves with the same methods others employed with the same results as I had in the grain production. Money came in and money went out and there was little or nothing for my efforts as I was selling into the same wholesale market where someone else sets the price and I was buying my inputs retail. No business that I know of but farming pays retail and sells wholesale. I have no idea how this got turned around but I know it keeps the farmer on the farm since he cannot afford to leave. I digress. I decided that since I could not influence to any degree the price I was getting for the feeder calves I would determine what I could do to impact the input or my costs. I searched for cheap sources of supplies or byproducts that I could feed. I tried to grow my fertilizer using clovers, I bought books that were 50 years old to see how it was done in the past, I spoke with people that could possible share information. I tried to extend my grazing periods further into the Winter. It was then that I learned I could get by on less hay and grow more grass and leave it unharvested. I observed that the cattle preferred the old grass left unharvested over the hay. When the herd came to where I was rolling out round bales and returned to where they were grazing grass stubble I knew I was going to shift off the hay and to the grass if possible. At that time I did not know how to maximize the grass and I had never heard the term stockpiling in reference to grass. It was then that I started in earnest reading and researching anything I could find and apply to my grass operation. I made lots of mistakes and I still make them. Paddocks of all descriptions were built and their flaws surfaced. It was then I decided to go it alone and to apply what I had known as a row crop farmer. I took out all the small and often square paddocks for the efficiency of turning machinery twice in rectangular fields instead of the previous four times. I made my paddocks to where the sizes are variable. I eliminated the gates. The lanes were widened to meet dual use as a lane and a grazing paddock. I made the partitions single wire instead of multiple. I recycled materials. These changes along with others reduced my input costs to nearly nothing as compared to a conventional farm. As these efforts paid off, I continued to venture into potential cost saving ideas such as not worming, no shots and birthing year round. Severing my dependence on commercial fertilize has been the most unnerving and though I am more than getting by I remain uncomfortable even after the lab tests substantiated I do not need it. The most significant gain from the entire shifting away from conventional methods has been the confidence building. I know,baring drought, that I can get by on my independence and doing that profitably and having more control on the destiny of the farm. I am now in the planning stage of a drought solution.
I apologize how lengthy this was but I did not know how else to respond.


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## godsgapeach

Wow! I really appreciate you sharing. I agree you didn't waste any words. 

Even with all the input and info that has been shared, and with what I'm soaking up, I fully expect to make my share of mistakes as well. But true wisdom comes from learning from the mistakes and not making the same ones again. Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome.

Hopefully as we make the mistakes we can figure out what we've done that doesn't work and go a different route. And hopefully the cows will be a little forgiving as we go through the process.


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## PACrofter

Agman, excellent post...as others have said, your patience and willingness to share your experience is most appreciated.

I'd like to jump in with a few questions. I've read over the whole post so forgive me if they've already been addressed:

First, how many bulls do you run with your herd? Is it one at a time, or do you have more than one? If you have more than one, do you have problems with them fighting?

Second, how - and at what point - do you ear-tag your critters? Some of the pictures you've posted show days-old calves with ear tags in them already. Do you tag them all the day they're born? Or only tag the ones you know you're going to keep? And how do you approach the calves to tag them - do you have holding areas or chutes spread out among your 161 acres?

Third (and last, for now) - have you considered marketing the meat from your animals direct to consumers, as opposed to selling live animals through the sale barn? I've heard that there's more work involved in this route, but the potential profits are reputed to be higher. I'd like to know your thoughts on this channel.

Thanks in advance!


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## godsgapeach

Hi, PACrofter. 

I knew I'd read the response to your 3rd question for Agmantoo. You can find it at the following link http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=267276 post #23 I think.


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## agmantoo

PACrofter
Currently I have one mature bull with the entire herd. I own a second bull but he is on loan because I want to get a group of calves out of the specific one bull that is here. Normally I do run two bulls with the herd. As both bulls are polled about all the do is butt heads until one establishes dominance. Even after dominance is determined the lesser bull will attempt to locate a cow that is cycling and attempt to service. Having two bulls present keeps both of them alert to the others actions thus no one is slack. Since I calve year round it is not too difficult for a single bull to manage to service 8 to 10 cows per month. Some months he may service less. It just depends on how the females syncronize.

Being as all animals are in one herd it is difficult to isolate any one animal to work on. All calves are ear tagged, left ear is heifers and right for steers. I have a lasso but I am not skilled with it. I simply walk up to the calf while it is 3 to 5 days old and place the loop over its head and pull the loop snug. Then I grasp above the foot of the front leg in my left hand and with the right hand above the foot of the rear leg and upset the calve and lift it a few inches and drop the calf on its back. This jolt seems to daze the animal and often it will just lay there. I band the bulls and then I insert the ear tags. There is no reaction to the banding but they object to the ear tagging. The momma cow will usually stand there and just watch me. Sometimes she may object but nothing frightening. I culled the crazy ones years ago. Back then I did have a few that acted as if they were going to hurt me.

I prefer not to sell off the farm and I am willing to forgo the extra income. I have openly invited many members from this forum to visit but there is a segment of the population that I prefer to stay on the outside. Suffice it to say I am a private person and we will let it go there.

Thanks for your interests.


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## PACrofter

Thanks, GGP - it looks like I have to go back and read more of Agmantoo's posts! ;-)

And thanks Agmantoo for your answers. Makes perfect sense. I understand about your hesitation to sell off the farm and I share many of your concerns. I sell a few things off the farm (live, not processed) and I still get nervous about having people here. (What makes me most nervous is the idea of violating some crazy regulation the gubbermint has that I don't know about.)

A follow up question, if I may, about the bulls. You mention that one bull can service 8-10 cows per month; if you had a higher bull-to-cow ratio (say, two bulls for a total of 12 cows) do you think the bulls would be fighting so much that they would run through the fencing? 

I'd like to somehow maintain a reservoir of genetic diversity by having more than one male in the herd but with only twenty or so acres to play with I'm not sure how to go about it. Would another option be to use a bull for one year, sell him and replace him with one of his sons each year? That might work, it seems, but it would complicate the banding since I'd presumably want to let the bull calves grow out a bit before banding.

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this. Thanks!


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## agmantoo

PACrofter
Age difference and size often make a determination of how bulls tolerate each other. Two breeding age bulls the same size will fight for dominance and they will retest from time to time. Whereas a small feeder calf size bull will be tolerated by the mature large bull. I could not justify keeping more than 1 bull with a small herd. In your case I would replace the single bull every third year or so. Each time I replaced a bull I would be looking for genetics that would be improving my herd. Many folks find that with smaller herds that artificial insemination works great. Certainly AI is the cheapest means of getting great genetics. If you were to take the money that would be spent on a couple of bulls you could build a terrific cattle working facility and never need to own a bull. Some bulls are dangerous and that would be another reason for not owning on. Not having a bull would let you keep an additional cow thus creating greater income. This additional income would pay for most if not all of your AI services. I want to reiterate that when you cull your animals always look at the calf and its mother to make the decision. It is imperative that both animals have flourished. Having a perfect calf whose mother gave up her body condition to the point it is questionable that she bred back or has needs of additional feed and supplement is justification for culling the cow. Do not judge and withdraw the best cows for retaining. Instead take out the worst condition cattle in the herd. The best cows are looking after themselves. It is imperative to not let age, sentiment or purchase price to enter into the selection. People cutting back on their herd too often remove their old cattle and keep heifers. The heifers are unproven where the older cattle that are in decent condition are known performers. Performance is what you are after. The performance is under your conditions; your weather, feed, genetics, facilities and practices. I restated the last portion of this reply for godsgapeach as they are about to start their selection process and I felt the need to emphasize.


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## godsgapeach

I'm paying attention, Agman. Thanks for the reminder.


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## NICC08

"People cutting back on their herd too often remove their old cattle and keep heifers. The heifers are unproven where the older cattle that are in decent condition are known performers."

If your cows are genetically superior to your heifers aren't you going backwards in your breeding program? I believe your heifers should out perform your cows.

Not saying your wrong Agman....just stirring the pot I guess


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## PACrofter

agmantoo said:


> PACrofter
> Age difference and size often make a determination of how bulls tolerate each other. Two breeding age bulls the same size will fight for dominance and they will retest from time to time. Whereas a small feeder calf size bull will be tolerated by the mature large bull. I could not justify keeping more than 1 bull with a small herd. In your case I would replace the single bull every third year or so.


One of the other factors coming into play in my question is that of sustainability - I want to prepare for a situation where AI or other suitable bulls are not available. Under this scenario, would keeping one herd sire for several years with one or two of his sons (out of the cow(s) that best exemplify the characteristics you've described) coming up after him work out? There would be an established order as the calf matures and by the time I felt the need to rotate out the herd sire his replacement would be sexually mature. Just a thought.



agmantoo said:


> PACrofter
> Each time I replaced a bull I would be looking for genetics that would be improving my herd. Many folks find that with smaller herds that artificial insemination works great. Certainly AI is the cheapest means of getting great genetics. If you were to take the money that would be spent on a couple of bulls you could build a terrific cattle working facility and never need to own a bull. Some bulls are dangerous and that would be another reason for not owning on. Not having a bull would let you keep an additional cow thus creating greater income. This additional income would pay for most if not all of your AI services.


How much do AI services cost, roughly? I've never used them before so I have no idea what to expect.

Thanks!


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## ArmyDoc

PACrofter said:


> One of the other factors coming into play in my question is that of sustainability - I want to prepare for a situation where AI or other suitable bulls are not available. Under this scenario, would keeping one herd sire for several years with one or two of his sons (out of the cow(s) that best exemplify the characteristics you've described) coming up after him work out? There would be an established order as the calf matures and by the time I felt the need to rotate out the herd sire his replacement would be sexually mature. Just a thought.
> 
> How much do AI services cost, roughly? I've never used them before so I have no idea what to expect.
> 
> Thanks!


I'm learning too at this point, but as I understand it, there are several ways to tackle the AI issue. From the self-sufficiency standpoint, or if you have a lot of cows, from the most cost effective standpoint, you can buy the equipment (liquid nitrogen cooled storage tank, injector etc) and take classes to learn how to do it yourself. This is probably the way to go if you have a lot of cows, and/or anticipate doing this for many years. You will see when your cows come in heat, and won't have to wait for the vet to service them 12 hours later. Just round them up and do it yourself.

Not all vets can do AI, as I understand, but an experienced cattle vet should be able to do it for you also. I've heard of the fee being as low as $10 per animal serviced. But I imagine that is based on them being out servicing several animals, and/or doesn't include their fee for showing up. Doesn't really matter though - what matter's is what YOUR vet charges.

A third option is available in some areas, the Semen Companies have people who sell their products who will come out and AI the cows. 

Probably the best option is if you have a friend who AI's his own cattle, they may be willing to help you for free, or a small fee. Better yet, they can teach you how do do it yourself.

What ever you choose, you will need to have the facillities to handle the cattle. Usually a squeeze chute and a head gate, as I understand it.


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## PACrofter

Thanks, ArmyDoc. I figured the cost couldn't be several hundred dollars a shot (as it were) or the economics of cattle raising wouldn't work (or there would be a lot more bulls around). It seems so much simpler to have a bull there to do his job, but I realize there are downsides to having a bull as well. 

As with so many things, it's about weighing the pros and cons and making a decision that works for your situation. Since I'm still in the planning stages I can afford to punt for a bit...

Thanks!


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## agmantoo

NICC08
The reason that one is cutting back goes into play when making the decision. If the cutback is due to lack of feed, poor economic return or drought then we are going for a reduction in headcount. Due to adversity we need to survive until the situation shifts with a lesser number of cattle. This cutback culling is going to be a setback as our expenses are increasing while the cash flow is diminishing. To meet these expenses we need proven performers over genetics IMO. If we are maintaining or increasing our headcount, but cycling poor performing animals out and have our replacement heifers on hand ready to replace, then we would do as you suggested and retain our best genetics as planned. We may even then keep the best of the old cows until the heifers prove themselves. Then the worst of the heifers may still not be up to par with some of the best old cows. Under this outcome we will still keep the known producer with a record of being an exception cow but is just getting old. You ever heard the expression "The devil you know may not be as bad as the devil you do not know"? This could be the circumstances.


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## LibertyIIE

PACrofter,
AI cost vary across the country. Good straw of semen can be purchased for 10-25 dollars. Nitrogen tanks cost about 500 Dollars but last many years. Refill costs avg about 6 dollars per month. AI classes cost about 600 dollars. Snyc medicines cost about 15 dollars per head. If you attempt to do the majority of your herd without sync. then plan on spending a lot of time watching for heat cycles. You can calculate the cost of one service per cow, but remember that 60% success is pretty good for AI.

Ken


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
You seemed interested in the number of cattle per square feet of grazing area and I had a request to ascertain how many cattle were on a specific area by the men that visited Sunday. On Monday I did some measuring, the area is accurate but the cattle/calf count may be off slightly. I cannot count them when they are together in the herd. In this picture there are approximately 261 sq ft per animal and that was ample feed for 24 hours. By my calculations that would have conservatively equated to 166,896 lbs/acre on late Winter stockpiled fescue.


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## godsgapeach

More questions, when it's convenient please, Agmantoo.

Am I correct in assuming that you have a particular time at which you rotate the herd each day? If so when and why? I think I've read about some toxins in some grasses are less harmful if the dew has dried--info overload so I can't remember what grasses or where I read it.

And back on fencing: I know you prefer the Parmak chargers. Can you tell me about how long I could expect one to last before it burns out? Do you keep a backup handy? I was just wondering since I haven't found them locally and wouldn't be able to run to town for a replacement in the event of a failure.

Thanks as always!


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## agmantoo

The cattle are given access to fresh ungrazed grass usually around 1 PM daily. If I am late they will be just standing around patiently waiting. This time is mainly for my convenience. I socialize at the local coffee shop several mornings each week and that time avoids people turning up their noses as I have not been in cow manure. Once I return home I seldom leave for the balance of the day. Afternoon chores and tasks aren't impacted by a little "fragrance". In Winter the 1 PM time is usually the warmer part of the day. We have a saying that "If it doesn't rain before 10, it will seldom rain before 2" and I find this true so I avoid a lot of rain when I rotate the grazing. It really doesn't matter when you move the cattle but they are creatures of habit and I find it is best to make the move at the same time each day. If you missed the schedule by many hours I would not be surprised if the cattle moved themselves.

As for the energizers/chargers. Seldom do the fail themselves. They get destroyed by lightning regardless of brand or lightning arrestors employed. Lightning comes in by way of the mains and by the fence they are electrifying. Man has never devised a means to protect electronic gear from lightning. Disconnecting the unit during a storm does work. : ) I have found that the ParMak units are no more prone to failure and may be less prone as they are protected by fuses. The newest ParMak charger is warranted by a two year support and the lesser priced units for one year against failure including lightning. The company has been good about repairing damage units and the turn around is fast. The quality of the repair is great and you may get an upgrade/new unit. Note...save the box the unit comes in for boxing a defective unit to return via UPS. I figure my cost for having the electrified fence is the price of the unit divided by the warranty period. Yes, I do keep a spare unit at all times. I find it nearly necessary to have two units in use often. As I stated previously, on some of the distant paddocks I to use a solar unit on the polywire. I can make a paddock hot on three sides while I am in the remote location and I do not have to return to the location of the main charger to turn it back on. There is a charger on the market that can be turned on/off remotely but it is too expensive IMO. 

You guys work any cattle today?


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## godsgapeach

Frustratingly, no! We are closer to making a plan, but my brother's more of a thinker and I'm a do-er--not that that's a bad thing, I just think until I decide what I'm going to do and then I get to it. 

It's supposed to rain most of the weekend (which we need), but if we have a few dry hours I'll drag him out to pick out the culls. Sale day here is Thursday and Daddy always goes on Wednesday afternoon. Regardless of how much help I get, next week I'm going out with Daddy and weed through hopefully 2 of the herds.

I like your ideas about moving them around 1. Something like that would work best for me too I think. That way I can get homeschooling and other chores done before. know if I ever planned to move them first thing in the morning, something would always come up.

Lightning will probably be a challenge here as well. We have some pretty fierce storms--my parents' house burned as the result of a lightning strike in 2001. 

Do the chargers really power the distance they say they will?

In your watering system do you have any of the quick connects that I've heard about?

Thanks again! I really appreciate your patience with all the questions.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> You seemed interested in the number of cattle per square feet of grazing area and I had a request to ascertain how many cattle were on a specific area by the men that visited Sunday. On Monday I did some measuring, the area is accurate but the cattle/calf count may be off slightly. I cannot count them when they are together in the herd. In this picture there are approximately 261 sq ft per animal and that was ample feed for 24 hours. By my calculations that would have conservatively equated to 166,896 lbs/acre on late Winter stockpiled fescue.



Thanks Agmantoo - a picture, as they say, really is worth a thousand words. That's a much higher stocking rate than I was envisioning. I hope to start my operation in the next 2-3 years. I expect to have 20 acres of pasture, which I will eventually be able to expand to about 40 rather easily. My goal is 25 to 30 cows. But when I start off it'll only be 4 cow calf pairs, so my paddocks are going to have to be much smaller than I was envisioning, to get the stocking density up to what you are running - for four cows it only works out to about 32ft on a side if its square! If I run 90ft wide tracts as you suggest, its only 12 ft wide for each paddock. Maybe I sould run 20 ft and rotate every other day?

Also, I still don't understand how your providing water. If you have a long track 90 by say 500ft or more, and you divide it with temporary cross wires between the two hot sides, where does the water go? It would seem like you need water all along one side. Otherwise, they would leave their water behind when they move into the next section. Or, is it that are you allowing them to go back over the ground they grazed the day before to get back to the water source? 

Thanks


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
If you have not started the forage growing you need to consider that now. Get the grass established even if you have to mow it off. The quality of the pasture will start to improve and the clippings will be building fertility.
I have a lane parallel to the long rectangle. The water is in the lane. The animals use the lane to travel in and that avoids manuring the grass in the main paddock and avoids paths in the grazing paddocks. I raise the permanent wire and let the cattle walk under the wire into the lane. The lane has multiple waterers in it. The cattle only get to travel from where they graze in the paddock to the nearest waterer. The remainder of the lane is cross fenced so that the lane away from the waterer can be regrowing as I also graze the lane to some extent. The lane is used in summer to give access to shade.

godsgapeach, I do not have the couplers and I do not want the water line above ground as the water here in summer would be too hot to drink IMO. I t also appears to be a nightmare to maintain if you have the number of cattle we have. My water line is 3300 feet long at this time. The pressure drop in the size line that I see advertised to move around would be too great to get ample water at the end. In the hottest weather I calculated that I need more than 3000 gallons per day.

The distance the chargers are advertised to serve is overstated. I do not energize all my fence all the time. I only keep segments hot. I want not less than 4500 volts where the cattle are all the time. I like to have twice that but it is not always possible when a lot of fence has to be hot and some weeds may be on the fence. Not all the strands are hot but I have more than 120,000 feet of wire strung out.


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## ArmyDoc

I think I am beginning to understand. If I had two long rectangular pastures, I would want to sepparate them with a narrow watering lane running between them. These large pastures would have permanent fencing around them. The daily paddocks would be made by running temporary fences accross the short axis of the permanent pasture, perpandicular to the watering lane. At the end of each of these smaller pastures, I just raise the permanent wire to allow access to the watering lane. The watering lane itself is about as wide as one of the smaller paddocks, and could be divided up so that it could be grazed too. Is this the general pattern? 

Taking it a bit further, you said that the cattle should not have to travel any more than 800 feet to water. So each large pasture (the long rectangular onec running parallel to the watering lane, would be not wider than 800 feet or so, so that the long axis of the individual paddocks isn't longer than 800feet, and cows wouldn't have to travel more than 800 feet to water.

I drew a picture of it, but I couldn't figure out how to post it.


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## ds40

Agman, what is your backfencing routine, during the growing season and during stockpile grazing? What, if any, method do you use early in the season to prevent grasses from going to seed? I've tried rapid rotation on paddocks and some years it may work and other years especially during a cool spring it seems that all paddocks bolt to seed very quickly.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
You are getting the concept. All perimeter fencing is a true fence. All interior "permanent" fence is single wire. All temporary fence is polywire. The polywire and pigtail step- in posts are the partitions and are used to define the size of the paddock that is being grazed. The polywire is run the short direction on the rectangular pasture to define the paddock. There will be a polywire behind and in front of the cattle. After 24 hours a third polywire is positioned in front of the cattle to form a new paddock. The then center polywire is opened to let the cattle move forward and then that polywire is closed to becomes the back polywire. What was the back polywire 24 hours ago is dismantled to be used the next day to form the new partition. This process is just repeated and the cattle move through the rectangle.


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## agmantoo

ds40
During the growing season I allocate several days worth of grazing. During the period of grazing stockpiled grass I move them daily. Daily movement better utilizes the grass. If I have more grass than the cattle can consume I run them through letting them have the best most desirable grass and clovers then I bushhog the grass trying to simulate a grazing by clipping the grass down to 6 to 8. inches. If I am going to stockpile this Spring burst I may clip the grass at the 6 to 8 inch height and let it regrow. Then in the boot stage I will clip higher to cut off the seed head and the stem. At this time and point water may be in short supply and it is getting hot and the fescue could cease growing or it will slow down considerably. I need to watch closely what I am doing, too few things are in my favor and I will not get another chance to prepare supplemental feed for late July and all of August. Once the grass seeds it will cease to grow. When you get that bolt that is too much growth to consume start cutting the seedhead off in the boot stage. The boot stage is prior to the emergence of the seehead from the stalk. Cutting the vey top of the leaves will assure that you are getting the seedhead. With plenty of rain you may have to repeat this effort. Doing this suppress weeds by stressing tall weeds by the cutting of their upper parts coupled with the choking out by the growing fescue.


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## agmantoo

We had snow last night following extended rain. Today I am on my last few acres of stockpiled fescue that actually I did not intend to feed. This grass is getting established and I was going to wait a few more weeks before either grazing or mowing it. All along I knew in a need situation I could graze and would graze it. The grass I intended to graze has some regrowth from late Fall grazing but it is too short for the cattle to access it readily. Therefore, to the new grass we moved. Here is a pic of the cattle after they had been grazing. Obviously the snow had little impact on any of the animals regardless of age or size. The younger cattle followed the older cows example by taking their noses and bull dozing the snow aside and went to eating as per normal.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for letting us know how you fared through the storm, Agman. I wondered if you still had any grass stockpiled, and you came through again! I wonder if your cows know how good they have it?

We, of course, had to feed extra hay. I think we got between 4 and 6 inches. Thankfully no loss of power (that's incredibly hard on Daddy keeping the chicken houses running on a generator, and they're full grown now--actually got picked up last night).

I'm ready for spring now!

Thanks for the wisdom you've shared and the example you set. Maybe one day...

Have a great one!


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
I have been checking for the 3/4" PVC posts, the Kencove link takes me to fiberglass posts. Could you give me further directions? I assume the post are solid and pointed, is that correct? Are they harder or easier to drive than regular T posts?

Ken


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## agmantoo

LibertyIIE
Most of your questions will be answered in the articles associated with the links that follow. If you do not get them answered there just post again and I will see what I can do.

Here is a highly touted posts and it is cheaper but you have to drill the hole. I have been considering using these when I have need
http://www.powerflexfence.com/gpage.html2.html

This is as close as I can come to what I am using. These are UV coated PVC filled fiberglass re-enforced. Look at item SKU A22D
The price is better here than at Kencove
http://www.grasslandsupply.com/products/fencing/posts/


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## agmantoo

I found this on the internet and since it is a much better picture than I can provide I want to share. Using the minimal fencing components this is what you need to be replicating as you build your interior permanent single stand parallel fences. I would space the insulated posts further apart, up to 60 feet.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agman. I see what you mean. I appreciate all you're doing to get us on the right track! 

I hope to have a fencing plan ready in a few days for your approval/suggestions. I'll post it as soon as I can.


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## wstevenl

Here is a picture of our dividing fence with a temporary fence attached to it with a reel.








Here is a picture of our pasture last spring when we first started grazing the spring oats. We used spring oats has a nurse crop with our grasses and legumes. The closest wire is a polywire. You can see that you don't need many pig tail posts because there isn't even one visible in that picture. 








Here we were trenching and laying pipe to go down the center of our pasture. We then installed a quick connect coupling every 100 feet. We needed that many with the small herd and small paddocks that we're using but if/when we expand we will go with fewer hookups/acre. 









You can see more pictures on the flickr photo album at our website.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for the visuals wstevenl! Can you tell me why you said you'd go with fewer hookups with future expansion? Just curious...


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## wstevenl

We now have two long strips (only a total of a 10 acre "test plot") with the center single wire dividing fence. Under the center fence we have quick connect couplings every 100' and about 18 inches deep. This works well because we can usually get a trough plugged into a coupling wherever we have a paddock set up for the day. We then unhook the hose and drag the trough to the next paddock. If we had 50' of hose we could actually put a trough anywhere along that center fence. 
When we have a larger herd and more acres we will be using bigger paddocks and maybe some lanes so we won't need couplings available so often. We have used a rubbermaid 12" tall trough with an orange float valve to keep it full (I think it's gallager). I think this year I'm going to switch to using a barrel cut to about 16" tall because it would be so much easier to move around.


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
Most impressive! You need to share some more of your knowledge.


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## wstevenl

I'll admit, some of that looks impressive. Like the volunteer! (Brome??) grass in the picture of the trenching and the spring oats. 
All of these 10 acres were in soybeans in 2007 so we started from scratch. 
We did have some really good looking alfalfa and our orchard grass and clover were okay the true test for me will be how this all comes back up in the next few weeks. We also added fescue to the mix in the fall and it's trying to take off right now but it keeps getting cold again. I'm hoping that we left enough residue for a good regrowth but the calves, that can go under the single wire fence, are eating some of that little bit of new growth.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we'll be rotating the herd again by April 1st!


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## agmantoo

wstevenl, is the ground covered in snow or is it visible at this time? I would like to see a pic of the pasture in an "as is" status. I also want to PM you if it is agreeable.


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## agmantoo

The following content is from another related post and I want to respond to it here as I want to open the discussion to Spring preparation for the forage for rotational grazing and felt that the conversation would get more participation here.
From BlackWillowFarm

Agmantoo, I want to read up on how to do this, can you recommend a good book(s) on the subject?

I could expand the pasture, in fact, I've thought about it. I could increase the pasture to seven acres. That would leave me with four acres for hayfield. I can usually start limited grazing in late April and have to pull them off the pasture in late September. I put up hay for seven months of the year. I figure one bale per animal, so at my current rate, I would need four hundred bales to get through a winter.

With rotational grazing on seven acres of pasture, how much longer into the fall, after the grass stops growing should I be able to keep them grazing and off the hay? I would be happy to get another month off it. If I could get more that would be even better.

The animals are off the pasture right now. I do have loafing areas where the horses can spend the day. How many hours/day horses need to graze to get what they need? What about the cows? They stay on it 24/7, right?

I used an old piece of chainlink fence as a drag to spread manure. It works pretty good as long as the grass is low enough. We have a drag harrow too.

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but the pasture is grazed down to the crowns of the plants. There is nothing to mow right now. I have a lot to learn.

I'll get a soil sample done right away. Is it okay to spread lime now even thought we're still getting temps in the 20's and 30's? Does it sit dormant until the weather warms and the rains come?

I want to achieve that "pasture beyond my imagination" you speak of! I can't wait to get started! Come on spring!!
__________________
~Carla~
Reply With Quote

BlackWillowFarm
, I am unaware of a "How To" book on rotational grazing. I am getting more traffic to my place as others are also having difficulty understanding the process from the tidbits they read or hear about. To further complicate our discussion I have never farmed in an environment such as yours. Attempting to replicate what I do could be a disaster in your climate. I am convinced that there is a lot of merit in doing rotational grazing and I feel comfortable stating the process will extend the grazing on both ends of the season, Spring and Fall. Grass that is left with at least 3 inches of leaves will recover faster in the Spring and grass that has growth on into the Fall can be stockpiled in the paddocks for future feeding after growth stops. I need to better understand the time of the Spring snow melt and the time that you have less than a foot of snow in the Fall/Winter for an average year. Once I get this information I will do some projections and will answer the questions you asked.


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## godsgapeach

Great, Agmantoo. I had subscribed to that thread to see how you were advising.

I do have a couple of books to suggest for BlackWillowFarm: Greener Pasture on Your Side of the Fence by Bill Murphy is one, and Managed Intensive Grazing (MiG) by Jim Gerrish is the other. However neither of them claims to be low cost/low input. They do get the idea of forages and rotating across, though.

I hope to post a photo of the possible plan for our paddocks later today. I don't know exactly when we'll begin the fencing. If we're able to buy the bull that might put us a bit behind a couple months, but I think having the right frame bull will at least start us in the right direction.

We appreciate the help as always!


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## ArmyDoc

A good book on MIG/rotational grazing is: "Grass-fed Cattle" by Julius Ruechel.

You can check it out at Amazon.com here: http://www.amazon.com/Grass-Fed-Cat...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236441661&sr=1-1

Chapters 4-13 deal mainly with pasture management. But the rest of the book is an interesting read too. Alot of the things Agmantoo has been saying would be much harder for me to visualize / understand if I hadn't already read this book. And, alot of the stuff in the book suddenly became clearer when Agmantoo wrote about similar topics.

Agmantoos rotational plan is very similar to the books, but I never really understood it until I read what Agmantoo wrote, and saw his pictures.


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## mrpink

ok Time for me to ask my question here. my land was forest land that was clearcut before I bought it in 2001. the area that I would like to plant in grass is currently mostly weeds with some grass (native?). there is underground springs under it and every few years it floods with heavy rain in the winter. in the dryest months I hit water at about 2 feet down. ph is tested at 6.5. should I harrow this summer and plant this fall? should I just bush hog this summer and over seed? I will probably plant fescue and clover. any advise?

greg


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## agmantoo

mrpink, I am always compressing time and sometimes it comes back to bite me. We here in the south know that the best time to plant grass is in the Fall but if we wait that long we have lost a lot of time that I do not want to forfeit. I planted an area last Saturday that I bulldozed earlier. Seed I planted about 2 weeks ago are starting to emerge even with the recent low temps (12F at night). Certainly it helps but it does not take a thick stand of grass to start a pasture and actually the clover will benefit if the grass isn't too thick. If you determine how to lightly scratch the surface and then broadcast some fescue followed by dragging some cover over the seed I think it would be worth the risks. Planting now may also give you a head start on the weeds. Do not even consider grazing this grass this Summer and Fall, it is imperative the roots get established and energy is built up in the roots. You should be able to pamper the grass over the summer with bush hogging about 8 inches high. The clippings will keep tree sprouts suppressed. Doing these things will aid an additional overseeding come Fall if you do not get the desired results from the grass and clover. I would go for it!


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## godsgapeach

See what you think, Agmantoo. Here's what we're considering for the startup fencing plan. The lane is the heavier red line. I know the area to the left is very odd shaped and the bottom paddock 2nd from the left doesn't have a back fence designated yet (those trees are on a very steep bluff), but I think it's workable. 

You're far more experienced though so shoot all the holes in the plan now while it's still on paper ;->!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach.
The arrow is where you plan for the cattle to access water from the stream isn't it? The other end of the lane goes to the corral and water?
What are the stars indicating, gates? Does some of your family live at the Star on the left? If so, we would not want wheel traffic cutting across a paddock.
As a farmer/tractor operator, truck driver, I do not like the tight, less than 90 degree, angular corners in the paddocks.
If you are giving access to water at the arrow why not just turn the lane and leave the area to the left end as one paddock, omitting the small bottom paddock,


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## BlackWillowFarm

agmantoo said:


> BlackWillowFarm
> <snip> To further complicate our discussion I have never farmed in an environment such as yours. Attempting to replicate what I do could be a disaster in your climate. I am convinced that there is a lot of merit in doing rotational grazing and I feel comfortable stating the process will extend the grazing on both ends of the season, Spring and Fall. Grass that is left with at least 3 inches of leaves will recover faster in the Spring and grass that has growth on into the Fall can be stockpiled in the paddocks for future feeding after growth stops. I need to better understand the time of the Spring snow melt and the time that you have less than a foot of snow in the Fall/Winter for an average year. Once I get this information I will do some projections and will answer the questions you asked.


The dates of last and first frost here are: May 29 / Sept 16. We can expect 12 inches of snow or better on the ground in Dec, Jan, Feb. Makes you want to pack yer bags and head on up, doesn't it?:happy: 

I have to disagree with the snow amounts though. I grabbed those statistics off the web and the snowfalls were totaled over a period of 39 years. I think it is fair to say in Dec, Jan and Feb we have a the potential to have that much snow on the ground. Most years it's less. Some years it's much more.

As far as spring melt, we could have bare ground as early as Jan, but most often by the end of Feb the ground is visible and most of the snow is gone. However, we don't experience any type of growth until April. There's a saying here in Michigan, probably other surrounding states too. "March comes in like a Lion and goes out like a Lamb." March is the turning point here when things go from harsh to mild.

When you talk of stockpiling grass, what do you mean? Is it left in the field for grazing after growth stops? Or, are you cutting it and stockpiling, similar to making hay?


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## agmantoo

Carla,
What I am wanting to share with you is how to extend your grazing season and to reduce your dependence on hay. You may want to take time to read this entire thread to acquaint yourself with the process. From the weather information you provided I see no reason that in an average year for you to have no more than 6 weeks worth of hay and in time you may improve on that. First you must learn how to get the forage growth maximized. Then you must learn to manage that forage. The management will consist of learning how to graze a portion of you pasture which you will convert into paddocks. These paddocks will be areas where you allocate the forage to the animals. As your animals graze the allocated paddocks you will be growing forage in non grazed paddocks that will be left in the paddocks for grazing later. This is your stockpiled Winter feed. Here is a pic of some of mine.








In your area I think that the normal grazing should extend into Dec once you get the proper growth established and then you will start on the stockpiled grass. Provided the snow doesn't get too deep you will then be on the stockpiled paddocks and these paddocks should carry you further into Winter until the snow is too deep for the cattle to push aside to access the grass underneath. Contrary to most peoples opinion, this stockpiled grass has a lot more nutrient than most hay. This pic shows a few cows eating the same grass shown above. These cattle will not receive any hay during the entire year. You can see they are flourishing.


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## mrpink

agmantoo you say "lightly scratch" would that be to use my disc harrows set just a couple of inches deep then seed. after broadcasting the seed then run a drag harrow (mine is a piece of chain length with metal bar on the ends for weight) over it to cover the seed? then during the summer keep the weeds bush hogged above the growing grass?

greg


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## agmantoo

mrpink, yes 2 inches or less. You just want the surface scarified across the width of the disc harrow. Then do exactly as you stated. Let the grass get tall enough to shade the ground but not letting it go to seed. Since you will be broadcasting the seed be a little generous and with fescue around 25 lbs per acre. Try to get this done ASAP. If no fertilizer has been applied just a little DAP (diammonia phosphate), 50 to 100 lbs/acre would go a long ways as a starter fertilizer. We do not want much nitrogen and remember that phosphate will grow more grass over a long period of time than nitrogen. As rotational grazers we are going for the long haul.


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## mrpink

this is the results of my soil sample:
phosphorus (p) 61 lbs per acre in the high range
potassium (k) 104 lbs per acre at the border of low/medium
calcium (ca) 2329 lbs per acre at the top of very high
magnesium (mg) 143 lbs per acre in the high range
zinc (zn) 4 lbs per acre in the sufficient range
manganese (mn) 44 lbs per acre in the sufficient range
ph 6.5 st the border of sufficient/high
lime buffer capacity (lbc) 413 (I have no clue what this is)

for recommendations
limestone 0 tons per acre
nitrogen  0 tons per acre
phosphate (p2o5) 0 lbs per acre
potash (k2o) 70 lbs per acre

so what should I put down?

greg


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## agmantoo

mrpink, I have never seen a cutover have results this good. How did you achieve this? I would add nothing but seed.


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## godsgapeach

Man, mrpink, you need to send some of that my way! You're ahead of the curve by a long shot!


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## mrpink

agmantoo this is bottom land it has three sloops that drain to it. I have added nothing to it. it was cutover the end of 2000 i bought it march of 2001. this area had piles of hardwood tree tops from the logging.it grew wild until the spring of 2004 when I had what is known as the great fire of 04 here.( I never knew old biers would burn so well). other then that i just bush hogged the weeds since then.

greg


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
Since we are in a severe drought here in South central Texas, I Have already culled 20% of my cows and need to go deeper. Since I have already culled on age, fertility, disposition,etc. I am now compiling a list to cull of everything over 1100 lbs. With that said my cows are all black with the majority angus. I have looked at Kit Pharo's website and he has a lot of semen available. Would you mind looking and give me an opinion of which bull you would think would be the best for the situation I have described. I have the AI training and facilities to do this hand work myself. I am trying to move in your direction.
I would include the link but I am not sure how to do that.
Ken


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## agmantoo

Ken,
I do not consider myself qualified to make the choice. Here are my thoughts however. I would look at the remaining herd and look at the cows that are holding their own as best as possible under the drought conditions. If some of the cows have a calf on them you must take that into consideration as a barren cow should be the one exhibiting the best condition and I know you have already culled those if present. What I am trying to state is to attempt to balance the equation and keep the cows that are in the best condition under the circumstances. I personally want small framed cows (frame 3) but if you are producing feeder calves you need to have an animal that will breed back Quickly following the drought particularly since you have already reduced the herd size. Cash needs to continue to flow. If I had a frame 4 known producing easy keeping cow on the 1100+ wt range I would keep her for now but I would breed her to a sire that is a low line like Machine. http://www.pharocattle.com/Semen-Source-2009/angus.htm On the other hand, if the cow I retained was a frame 3 ideal easy keeper that gave moderate milk I myself would consider the sire Viking. By doing this you possibly could accomplish two things. You would have animals that should flourish in your environment and you would have some genetics in the heifer calves that could boost your operation in the future as you repopulate. I am convinced you will not regret the shift to smaller cows and to rotational grazing. Particularly when you are able to see the benefits first hand. I went through an extended drought with the worst part in 2007. Hopefully the drought breaks soon for you. PS.....An interesting note, I was doing rotational grazing here in 2003 when the area was considered a major drought impacted location but with the rotational grazing I made it through unscathed.


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
Thanks for your input. I will check these bulls you mentioned. My aim with the AI would be toward my smaller cows and keep the best heifers for possible replacements. The one farm that I was rotational grazing is the only one we still have cows on. The one with conventional grazing has been liquidated a while back. That was pretty revealing how much better the rotational pasture did vs the conventional. I am in the process of changing the conventional pasture to rotational grazing so when the drought breaks I will be ready to restock there after I give the pasture a well deserved rest. I have purchase the supplies to put up the hi tensile as soon as the ground gets enough moisture for me to drive in the posts.
Ken


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## agmantoo

This site took a hard hit today and appears that we have lost 6 to 8 posts. Those seeking info need to repost provided you did not get your answers.


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## agmantoo

I am searching for information on irrigating pastures. Does anyone here have first hand experience? The water source will be a creek and I anticipate only irrigating 30 to 40 acres.


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## godsgapeach

Good grief! A lot of them were lost!

I know I asked if you, Agmantoo, had had a chance to measure exactly how high your wire is (since you mentioned letting your calves graze the best forage).

Thanks for being on top of this!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
I have two lengths of the pigtail posts. The above ground portion on the better posts are 30 inches and the other is 34 inches. I do not recall the amount that is below ground. The PVC fiberglass re-enforced drilled posts have the wire anywhere from 36 to 39 inches. This permits the calves to graze ahead of the herd by going under the wire and the cattle can eat under the hot wire. PS, did you get your PH test done and what is the status with the lime?


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## wstevenl

agmantoo, did you get my message?


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
No


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Just had to jump in here. 

MR PINK, we had that same sort of situation here with all the briars and junk growth except it was in old overgrown fields, not cutover. We put in a good fence and ran goats on it for a few years. They not only demolished the briars but killed them out, and changed the nature of the fields to grasses, often even without seeding. Those briars will compete heavily with any seeded grass, and repeated mowing may enable the grasses to overcome, but goats would overgraze the briars, even eating the new stalk growth (young shoots), without eating too much of the grass. Just a thought...


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## RosewoodfarmVA

AGMAN, when the drought hit 2 years ago we considered irrigation, but all the local "experts" said it would cost more to run than we would get out of it. Then that winter hay prices went to $8 a bale or more and I wished I had irrigated. A new system in the $20,000+ range would not be worth it for the few times each year it would be needed, but seems that if you found a cheap used tobacco irrigation pto setup with old 20' aluminum pipe and guns, you could do the same on a lot less $$, set up the pipelines to run with your fence. 

Most people think of irrigation only in drought years, but it seems that every summer, even with good spring and fall rain, we always have a few weeks in summer when a little water would sure be nice! We're 'looking' for a used system at this point, if the price is right we'll try it out.


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## wstevenl

Aggmantoo,
Jason at yonder way farm is using this little orange irrigation pods that are connected by hose and pulled around the pasture with a four wheeler.
http://yonderwayfarm.com/grass-fed-beef/


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## agmantoo

RosewoodfarmVA 
You have been to my place and you have seen what I am doing. Since I am totally dependent on grass 24/7/365, with water I should have an abundance of grass. I could take the expense of all the hay equipment and the associated expenses of the supplies, labor , hay and equipment storage, hay spoilage, fuel and parts and apply that to a reel irrigation system and IMO come out cheaper from that aspect. Then I could be assured of having a more dependable source of forage and forage in greater supply to support an increase in herd headcount and have less concern as to what to do in a drought. This seems to me to be a no brainer. Where do you see fault with this? Any other thoughts?


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## mrpink

RosewoodfarmVA said:


> Just had to jump in here.
> 
> MR PINK, we had that same sort of situation here with all the briars and junk growth except it was in old overgrown fields, not cutover. We put in a good fence and ran goats on it for a few years. They not only demolished the briars but killed them out, and changed the nature of the fields to grasses, often even without seeding. Those briars will compete heavily with any seeded grass, and repeated mowing may enable the grasses to overcome, but goats would overgraze the briars, even eating the new stalk growth (young shoots), without eating too much of the grass. Just a thought...


rosewoodfarm I got rid of the briar's for the most part several years ago. still have a few around old hardwood stumps but nothing major. I did have goats on another patch of ground with the weeds I had they would not eat them.

for anyone one central ga that might be expecting rain within the next week I heard we may get some and went right to work to solve that. I broad casted some good old ky31 tonight. so rest assured we will not get any rain for at least a month.

greg


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Agman with your setup a reel system would do wonders, I just wonder if the initial expense is worth it? Your 60-80ft wide long pastures would be ideal for a traveler, set the gun at the top of the hill and the reel at the lower end near the creek, and let it travel down to the creek. I'm a penny pincher so I guess the big question to me is, which would be more cost efficient, buying a reel system with pump and the works plus fuel (big $$) or the odd drought and buying hay/feed to make it through? Over a 20 year period which would you spend more on, irrigation, or drought feed?

With your rotational grazing you are set up already to withstand a 5-6 week drought, common in this area, plus winter pasture. Normal summer drought isn't a big issue, you can plan for it, the biggest issue is a severe drought where grasses can't recover enough to enable winter stockpiling. The issue isn't a few weeks of dry in summer, but the stress it causes plants, which have to tap into root reserves and recover before making any new growth, enough for stockpiling. The advantage of irrigation is that it keeps the plants from getting stressed, so that with the return of fall rains it really jumps. Irrigation can't do as good a job as a rainstorm, but I do think it's good from the standpoint of reducing heat/drought stress on the pasture, keeping the plants in atleast a healthy, if not growing, condition. 

Our farm is cut up into so many smaller fields that irrigation would be much harder than your place. Either a permanent trunk line up the center of each rectangular section, or a traveling reel system, would work for your place. The biggest issue there is the hilly terrain, but coming downhill wouldn't be a problem? Maybe the unit would not be able to keep itself from rolling with gravity, but I think with the hose full of water it should be enough of a brake to keep it steady. Is there a local that has a reel system you could try?


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## godsgapeach

Somehow in the craziness of the lost posts, I haven't been getting the updates that new posts have been made... Weird!

Anyway, yes, Agmantoo, I have my soil tests. The main pasture we've been looking at (where I had the layout drawn--working on that too...) has a pH of 5.9. Down on my end, it's 6.1. Across the road where the grass is VERY scarce, it's 6.3. And further down across the road it's 6.5.


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## agmantoo

Not bad at all on the PH! That will save you some money and will give you a head start. I know you are working on the pasture. It is time to have all the pasture bush hogged where needed and to have the cow patties dispersed. I would think you should be see a response from the good weather and the forage should be growing and getting dark green. It is time now to start limiting the access and to start allocating the area the cattle are to graze in order to give the paddocks that are not grazed a chance to come into their own. Will you be fertilizing? If so what are your plans? PS...Across the road where the grass is very thin have you considered sod drilling some fescue into what is there? You could also overseed with some clover and with the grass being sparse the clover should establish.


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## godsgapeach

Yeah, Agman, I've recently found muscles I had forgotten I had! The lopping shears, saw, and swingblade have been my best friends. That's another reason I hadn't seen the new posts--too tired to fool with the computer.

I've actually considered devising some sort of drag to pull behind the gator as I'm working to scatter the patties... 

The pastures are greening up very nicely! I wish there was enough grass on the field with the 6.3 pH to move them all over there while we rest the rotational area, but there just isn't. I think my next option is to run a line of fence down near the lot all the way to the creek, just to get them off the paddock area.

The next option for fertilizer will probably be about 7 weeks away. Is it worth doing that late? I know you said late Marchish...

Thanks for your input as always!


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach
You need some help with all your tasks. The Spring growth burst is going to get ahead of you quickly. I am noticing 3 inches of forage growth in a two week period already. You will have to prioritize various efforts if you are going to get into rotational grazing near term. I have pondered over what I should suggest but from the distance that separates us increases the difficulty. Can you get the parallel fences and the lane going to water in place foregoing everything else? What are the chances of hiring this done and you supervising? It should not take a couple men very long to accomplish this. With the rotational grazing started you could come behind the cattle with the chicken litter benefiting the just grazed areas with a boost of fertilizer. Otherwise, you have no choice but to prepare to make hay again. Culling the herd and getting a replacement bull will involve very little time. Your thoughts please.


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## godsgapeach

I agree, Agman. I'm totally feeling the pressure of time passing! And I know after the rain that's expected over the next few days, I'll be even more behind.

The thing that's my main concern is funds. My priority has been shooting for paying for a bull--THE bull to have ;->, and that expense combined with the expense of fencing and equipment (I know some of it's a one time expense--but I need it at the beginning, not the end) ... it's just a LOT at one time. 

I'm going to see how quickly we can at least get them off the main pasture and see if we can at least get a few paddocks set up with a lane. 

We've rarely if ever hired out work. Generally we just pick a day and everybody pitches in and gets the job done. Stubborn/determined streak runs pretty deep. (Case in point--I'm waiting on the doc's office to open up so I can get a steroid shot for poison oak/ivy/whatever from whatever vines I was clearing from a corner of the fenceline yesterday. I knew there was a possibility that the defoliated vines COULD be trouble, but... wanted to get the job done. Sigh... stubbornness has its drawbacks.)

I'm hoping to post some pics of the persimmon issue I'm having. I think that battle may never be won in my lifetime. I'll explain that with the pics.

Have a great one!


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach
You are conversing with a man that is convinced that he can eat an elephant. I have learned over the duration that I would just have to eat the elephant one mouthful at a time. I have not be able to convey that you are going to turn a marginal cattle operation into a highly profitable one step at a time. These steps just have to start and them need to be timely. If you are not careful you will be foregoing the financial improvement that will result and forfeiting far more, by not spending the money now, than you will be saving by delaying implementation. To generate the income needed now cull some of the cattle and use those funds and pay the family back once you are up and running. This is the optimum time to temporarily cut back on the herd size to benefit the pastures and the market for the cull cattle is about as good as it gets also. Obviously there is some doubt with you or your family regarding the conversion to rotational grazing or you would move ahead. Where have I failed to communicate with everyone to create this uncertainty?


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## godsgapeach

I don't think you've failed to communicate anything clearly. We're IN for the conversion--all of us. Of course, Daddy has made plans for hay for this year already--that's all he's ever known/done and he'll be prepared either way. He always sells what he doesn't use anyway. It's just going to take us some time to get going. Believe me, I'm plenty impatient too! I'm trying, I'm trying!!!! So as it is, I'm doing everything I can do to prepare and clean up/clear out to make the transition as easy as possible. It's just not happening as fast as spring greenup!

Just another question: What is the best way to calculate how much wire/how many posts to purchase? Actually step it off?

Thanks as always!


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## agmantoo

Stepping it off is the technique I use then I add a few posts. The wire is in 4000 ft rolls and you will never match a roll to your needs so there is always the partial roll on hand.


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## godsgapeach

That makes sense! Thanks!


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## godsgapeach

Questions for wstevenl:

Can you give me a source for the quick connects you have? Did you purchase them as a unit or did you have to buy the individual components to assemble them?

What size pvc did you use? 

In looking at the pics of your quick connect, how deep are they set? Do you cover the hole when it's not in use? (or am I misinterpreting the picture entirely?)

Thanks for your help!


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## Trisha in WA

godsgapeach said:


> The thing that's my main concern is funds. My priority has been shooting for paying for a bull--THE bull to have ;->, and that expense combined with the expense of fencing and equipment (I know some of it's a one time expense--but I need it at the beginning, not the end) ... it's just a LOT at one time.


I am green as grass here, so throw out my idea if you wish.
Would it not be more cost effective to get your fencing done now with your available funds, AI this year and buy your bull when funds are available? Maybe I missed that AI is not available in your area...I do know that is an issue for lots of folks. 
Just thinking out loud.
Trisha in WA~who got the posts purchased now to work on my new fences too.


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## gwithrow

hello Agman, we moved the cows home..cancelled the fertilizer truck and are now looking at how we can create some lanes to water and make smaller areas for summer grazing...bear with me...what kind of wire for perimeter? the 12 1/2 gauge? or can we use the poly wire all around? all of the pastures have good new fences so all we need to do is create a lane to water and confine cows to smaller areas for better grazing...we will get a solar charger and hopefully be ready when it is time to move the cows back to the bigger fields...meanwhile we are enjoying the rain out here...thanks for the visit again..gwithrow


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## agmantoo

Gwithrow,
The wire for the paddocks and the lane is High Tensile 12 1/2 gauge wire that comes in 4000 feet rolls. This wire comes in varying tensile strengths. Wire that is 180,000 PSI tensile strength and below is slightly less strength but is easier to work. You will want grade 3 galvanizing and you must have a wire spinner (spinning jenny) to unroll the high tensile wire. The polywire is not nearly as conductive and will not hold up like the 12 1/2 gauge wire. I do not like running the power on a single run of polywire for more than 400 feet. As you saw when you were here, just install two parallel wires and that will let you vary the amount of forage by positioning the polywire wherever you please. I use the lane wires to carry the energizer power over the farm and jumper the parallel paddock wires to the lanes wires to get power to the polywire used to divide the paddocks. If you have mains power near the lane wires I would buy a mains charger as they are cheaper and higher output. Did James remember terra preta?


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I'm reviewing posts (again) and I was curious about your pic of your dual seeder/spreader (post #125). What are you using there?

I asked Daddy about a drag harrow and he said my great uncle (who owned the land where we're setting up the paddock plan) used to use a section of chain link fence.

Thanks!


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## twohunnyz

Newbie Follower Questions:

I have been following this thread with great interest. As well, I've recently finished reading Gene Logsdon's books "The Contrary Farmer" and "All Flesh is Grass" and am thoroughly convinced of the benefits and appropriateness of grass-fed cattle. Thank you for keeping this topic public so others could find it and learn!

We are in the process of looking for raw land in NE WA state. I believe it is zone 5A or b, but it is mostly forest land- Douglas Fir, Pines, Aspen, wild berries, etc. What should we be looking for/keeping in mind for good pasturing prospects of the land? And once we do find the parcel of choice, hopefully in May, what would be the first steps to take with the mountain meadows?

Thank you!


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## gwithrow

ah terra preta....yes, we have just started researching..he wants to do his senior thesis on terra preta;....that is a couple of years away...but he is going to start on this project right away...we will be going over to where the fire occurred and scoop up the charcoal for our garden post haste....and we all know where the chicken layer litter goes....we will start our pasture planning right away...we do have electric to one well in the middle of one field...` could run off of the that, at least on that one side of the road....for the other side we might do something else....like solar...but we have to start somewhere...and it seems to me the best thing to do is to start....we will all develop our program as you have..learning as we go....and thankfully we have you as a resource...meanwhile we are reassessing our cows...all six...and will work this one day at a time...for today we are very grateful for rain...will sow clover if the rain lets up....if not tomorrow then next week...thanks...


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach 
What you see there is my most used tractor and a combination of a spreader/seeder mounted on the 3 point hitch and to the drawbar is a worn out 18 ft wide spike harrow. I believe I paid $75 for the harrow. I have taken the adjustment linkage off as the handles were prone to hanging in the fence as I sometimes try to get a cow pattie that is under the wire. The worn out spike portion is laying flat on the ground and I use the cross arms that hold the spikes to level and spread the manure. Using the harrow I can cover about 4 acres per hour. I have used chain link fence but over time it wants to curl as it gets stretched. The chain link is also subject to skim the top off the patties whereas the old spike harrow will break the manure up scattering the manure to where it is about the size of a chicken egg.


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## agmantoo

gwithrow,
Regarding getting energizer power to the other side of the road.
If there is a culvert under the road just use an insulated 12 1/2 gauge galvanized wire placed inside a piece of flexible roll plastic tubing used in water wells and send everything through the culvert. Silicone sealant needs to be used in each end of the roll tubing to keep water out. You are so correct, the best thing to do is to start.


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## godsgapeach

Hmmm I found a close up pic of one online to get a better idea. Yesterday while I was out and about I came across an old steel cattle guard. I wonder if it could be converted somehow. I'll have to see what else I can come up with--plus there's 30+ years of retired equipment around.


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## agmantoo

twohunnyz
Glad to see you here! In looking for land you must have water. Growing forage in quantity where trees exists is nearly impossible. Open land is more valuable than tree land when you are going to have cattle. The expense to clear tree land will range for $1000 up. That does not include establishing the forage. I do not know enough about the part of Washington you are considering to guide you through grazing there. I do know that you can get by with less hay if you rotational graze but I think you will have to feed hay during the worst of Winter. I am aware of an individual that is only feeding hay for 6 weeks in Iowa. Possibly travlnusa , a person that posts here could help you address the issues of bad weather.


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## ArmyDoc

I have questions about how you manage your calves. At what age do you wean your calves? Do you just sepparate the calves from the main herd? I've heard of running the calves ahead of the cows, and using the cow heard as clean up. Do you do this?

Do you castrate all the bull calves and run the steers heiffers together? If so when and what method? If not, do you sepparate the bull calves and run them sepparately from the heiffers and cows?


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I found a less expensive pair of THE pliers at Powerflex. http://powerflexfence.com/catalog01.8.html

They're about 1/3 of the way down the page.

In your opinion would they be as good as the Gallaghers? (I assume that's what you have).


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## agmantoo

Item # FSC $42.00 is the pair of pliers that you want. I think they are the same pliers but at a better price. Gallegher stuff is overpriced.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
The calves are permitted to graze ahead of the herd. I t does create a minor problem in that they want to do the grazing ahead as they get older. I never wean the calves. The cows will wean the calves if they are still at the farm when it is time to calve again. I band the bull calves with the little "cheerio" green bands and ear tag all calves when they are a few days old otherwise I cannot catch them.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> The calves are permitted to graze ahead of the herd. I t does create a minor problem in that they want to do the grazing ahead as they get older. I never wean the calves. The cows will wean the calves if they are still at the farm when it is time to calve again. I band the bull calves with the little "cheerio" green bands and ear tag all calves when they are a few days old otherwise I cannot catch them.


By permitted to graze a head, you mean you just let them slip under the wire into the next section as long as they can fit, right? That sounds a heck of a lot easier. Other people are telling me you have to wean at 6-7 months, or it's too hard on the cow... but then I imagine they are running larger cows on poorer pasture.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
You are right on, the calves just walk under the wire which I have around 36 to 39 inches high. I do not want the calves to learn how to jump the wire. That habit will follow them until they become mature cows and cannot jump due to being overweight from pregnancy. A cow that milks too heavily or is too big (frame 4 or larger) will not maintain body condition on grass alone. If a person has the "right" cattle they will maintain condition on grass. The necessity of retaining condition is why I suggest when culling to look at the cows condition before looking at her offspring. Having a great calf to market and being left with a cow that will not cycle for rebreeding and is in poor body condition is a sure way to lose money. My cows will breed back within 2 months of giving birth. The following pic was taken the 2nd week in Feb. She has since had her calf about 4 days ago. The cow is approximately 14 years old. If you would like I will take her pic again since calving and again later as she nurses her calf in order to track her condition.


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## ArmyDoc

Wow, still going strong at 14! What frame size and weight is she? I'd love to see more pictures of her as the year goes on.

You said that you don't wean the calves because the cows will wean them on their own if they are still there when it comes time for the next birth. How long do you generally keep your calves before taking them to the market? Are most of them gone before a year, or do you frequently keep them longer than a year?


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc,
I do retain heifers for adding to the herd. The calves that are sold are normally gone by 9 months of age. If I think the market is off and if I have a surplus of forage then I may hold the calves until the market improves or that I have come to believe I was wrong. If I am short on forage I may sell the calves light, under the 550 lb range that I market animals.
I would guess the old cow is in the mid frame 3 range and weighs around 1000 lbs +-. I do not have a set of scales on the farm. I will try to get a pic of her over the next weeks and I will also get a pic of her calf. The calf is growing rapidly. On grass alone this cow has proven she will return to heat and breed and at the same time keep good body condition and produce a great calf. She usually has bull calves more frequently and her bull calves obviously outgrow the heifers. I looked today and her calf is a heifer. The heifer calf will be kept as a replacement for the herd provided it demonstrates mom's features.


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## ArmyDoc

Frame 3 - so thats about 48 inges at the hips. I would have guessed alot less - she's so round in the photo, it makes her look shorter. There's alot of uniformity in your herd, I'm impressed.

What I would like to do eventually is to breed replacement heiffers and bulls. I won't have enough space for a large herd - maybe 30 or so tops. But I figure if I concentrate on sellecting the right genetics, maybe I can make a contributuion. Thanks for your patience in answering all my questions.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc, you are correct. I do not think she is that tall. I am close on the weight but I will attempt to get a more accurate height at the hip measure tomorrow if it isn't raining. I think there is a market for broodstock that can flourish on grass. It was very difficult for me to get cattle that did not "fall apart" on grass alone. I still do not have what I ultimately want. I want a cow like the 14 year old one that is black and will marble on grass. Of all the calves that I have produced probably less than a dozen were top performers at my expectation level.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc,
The old cow is a frame 2 when everything is taken into consideration for her age.


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## ArmyDoc

Frame 2 would be 46 inches at the hip? Still larger than I would expect - Kit Pharo is right - these "small cows" aren't that small. He had a nice talk about it on page 4-5 of his last news letter - http://www.pharocattle.com/Mar_Apr_2009.pdf

I am looking at doing a composite of Red Angus and Senepol. The Red Angus yields early maturity, good marbling and tenderness (and the angus name) and Senepol adds the above with good heat and fly tollerance. I've been in contact with a couple of breeders who say their herds are grass fed... so I'm hoping it wont be too difficult to get animals that will do well on grass alone. 

I know you prefer black, but I like red because those then who prefer red for heat tollerance can have it, and those who want black can cover the cow with a black bull and get all black calves for market, while retaining heat tollerant mothers. If I went with black, I couldn't make those who want red happy. (the fact that I like red better myself probably plays into it too....)

Right now, I am thinking I will probably shoot for an herd average frame size of 3. I've heard that you don't get penalized at market for frame sizes as low as 3, but will below that. Have you experienced this at all?


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## agmantoo

That 46 inch height would be correct for a mature 48 month old cow. I really do not know if at that extended 14 year old age if the cow would start to shrink. 
I am going to disagree with your choice of color and bloodlines but I think we are mature to where we can have a conversation without being offended. By going red you will reduce the size of your market for broodstock. With hobby people it will not matter. With those in the cattle business for profit then the small price difference for going black will impact the color of the broodstock. I can expect $50 to $80 premium for a 550 lb feeder calf in today's market. On a hundred head herd that is an addition average of $6500. That amount would buy 2 quality bulls at most bull sales. My pastures have shade and black has never be an issue at my place. Where can I find supportive information that red animals tolerate heat better? PS...If I was to grow what I like best I would have shorthorns. I raise what the market wants. With senepole genetics how do you plan on getting consistent offspring?


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> That 46 inch height would be correct for a mature 48 month old cow. I really do not know if at that extended 14 year old age if the cow would start to shrink.
> I am going to disagree with your choice of color and bloodlines but I think we are mature to where we can have a conversation without being offended. By going red you will reduce the size of your market for broodstock. With hobby people it will not matter. With those in the cattle business for profit then the small price difference for going black will impact the color of the broodstock. I can expect $50 to $80 premium for a 550 lb feeder calf in today's market. On a hundred head herd that is an addition average of $6500. That amount would buy 2 quality bulls at most bull sales. My pastures have shade and black has never be an issue at my place. Where can I find supportive information that red animals tolerate heat better? PS...If I was to grow what I like best I would have shorthorns. I raise what the market wants.


I respect you too much to be offended if you disagree with me, and I would enjoy the conversation, because I'm interested in your point of view. That's why I brought it up. 

There was a study done a while back where they measured the core temperatures of cattle on a hot day. The measured Angus, hereford, brahma and senepol rectal temperatures. Senepol measured over two degrees cooler than the angus 102.13 vs 104.41 degrees. Hereford was also lower than Angus, presumably because their red, not black. I can't find a link to the actual paper (working on it), but the article is quoted on the second page of this link.
http://www.senepolcattle.com/files/English Version.pdf

I'm not sure why the color of the brood stock would matter. If you put a homozygous black angus bull in a herd of red angus cattle, all of the calves will be black. So the price of the calves would be identical. Or am I missing something?


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## agmantoo

Black calves are black and that is what counts to many buyers. Having too much ear could be a problem on senepole influenced black calves and with breeding stock those that do not meet your expectation will be sold elsewhere. I do not understand how you are going to get get consistent calves from the senepole cattle with their background genetics. It appears that there are too many variables. You will want repeat customers and those repeat customers will expect consistency. Once you get the "right animal" you will want cookie cutter repeatability, will you not?


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
Have you researched other countries where they produce predominately grass feed animals for the genetics they are currently employing? I suggest you see what you can find on NZ and Australia. These findings may influence your thoughts of the breed(s) you select.


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## ds40

Agman, if you please. You stated that phosphate will grow more grass than nitrogen. What was your soil testing for phos. when you quit adding fertilizer and what is it testing this year for phos. Does spreading cow manure during the warmer months have any detrimental effect on dung beatle populations? What, if any, warm season grasses have voluntered in the fescue, crab grass, bluestem, or other native grasses?


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## agmantoo

I believe that I said that over a year that phosphate will grow more grass than nitrogen. With a good root system, I am of the opinion that I can get earlier Spring growth and later Fall growth and as a rotational grazer those weeks are important. For hay production nitrogen will produce more short term growth. Since I am grazing year round then phosphate is what I would applied if I were going to use commercial fertilizer. When I stopped using commercial fertilizer the soil test called for 30 to 50 lbs of phosphate per acre. The most recent soil tests still states the soils need 30 to 50 lbs/acre. I am using the chicken litter from one layer house and I have that applied on approximately 30+ acres per year. On the chicken litter applied acreage the soil test only called for 20 lbs/acre, the lowest requirement on the farm. The PH has improved on those areas as layer litter contains calcium that was fed to the layers for egg shell improvement.
I have noticed that since I ceased to worm the cattle that I have more dung beetles but I do not have any of the dung beetles of the type that were released in Texas when the research was done. 
My pastures now have vetch, chicory, clovers, fescue, rye grass and bluegrass. There are no prevalent warm season grasses. I have a variety of clover sown and I cannot differentiate some of them. Over time I have sown Alyce, Alice, Ladino, Arrowleaf clovers. This will be the first year for growth on the Alice which is a clover out of NZ. It is coming up now and looks promising.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> Black calves are black and that is what counts to many buyers. Having too much ear could be a problem on senepole influenced black calves and with breeding stock those that do not meet your expectation will be sold elsewhere. I do not understand how you are going to get get consistent calves from the senepole cattle with their background genetics. It appears that there are too many variables. You will want repeat customers and those repeat customers will expect consistency. Once you get the "right animal" you will want cookie cutter repeatability, will you not?


The senepole breed itself is pretty well established - was started in the 1920s or so, and has been pretty much established since the late 1950s, as I understand it. The herds I've seen are pretty consistant. What I want from the senepole line is the slick hair coat, which is dominant. Hadn't thought about the ear presenting a problem. Senepol doesn't carry as much ear as the brahma line does. My plan is to breed the senepole cross back to full blood red angus, sellecting for the slick coat and ultemately geting back to purebred status. Hopefully that will shorten the ear also, but I don't know how that trait is passed on.



agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> Have you researched other countries where they produce predominately grass feed animals for the genetics they are currently employing? I suggest you see what you can find on NZ and Australia. These findings may influence your thoughts of the breed(s) you select.


I have looked at some of the Australian Breeds, but probably need to look a bit more. It was their efficiency on grass that got interested in Senepol. These folks raise both senepol and a breed called Belmont Red. http://www.maynardcattleco.com.au/sales.html but the belmont red doesn't have much of a presence here in the US.
The Murray Grey breed also interested me, but you can't get black calves from the Mury Greys just by putting a black bull on them. 

I feel like I'm highjacking your thread though by bringing up breed choices, though their efficiency on grass is somewhat related. Do you think I should start a separate breed thread, or maybe just discuss this further by PM?

thanks again for all your insight.


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## Allen W

Armydoc I have to agree with agmantoo that you would be better of breeding for black hided cows if you intend to sell them for breeding animals. Around here it can be $100 plus dollars difference just for a black hided cow over a red cow.


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## ds40

Anyone have exrerience with lespedeza?


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## agmantoo

ds40
My experience is very limited with lespedeza. At one time I planted Marion lespedeza for summer grazing and I got a stand but it was mixed with fescue and clover. The cattle enjoyed it from what I observed as it was eaten. The Marion could not compete with the fescue and was supressed. A couple of years later during a very dry Spring the fescue did not get the head start and some Marion reappeared. After this second grazing I never saw it again. I have also had some annual volunteer early on and it could not compete with the fescue either and has disappeared. I do see a few persistent sericea lespedeza plants on a poor hillside most years. If it is really dry those few plants will be the only thing growing. Sericea is considered a noxious weed in many states but was planted for erosion control in NC for years. I have spoken with the extension agent regarding my planting a few acres of sericea for summer grazing but he cautions against it. I have a friend that bales hay for horses and he cuts some sericea and tells me the horses really like it if the cutting occurs at around 12 to 14 inches height. If you were to plant sericea it is imperative that you cut or graze the plants early and not permit the plants to develop a major stem.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
I consider this thread to be godsgapeach's but I doubt that she will object as I know she is in the market for the "right kind" of animals for her rotational grazing project. She is considering a Pharo sire at this time. She is also going to cull so the frame size discussion should interest her also. We should hear from her soon.


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## godsgapeach

I'm not at all opposed to breed discussion here! I think it's completely relevant to the rotational topic since some breeds and certain body types are definitely significant for a successful program. 

ArmyDoc, just for the record, prior discussion here has sold me on black angus, but my brother still leans toward red. We won't, however, have shade in all paddocks as Agman does. But I think I've convinced him that we can build some portable shed type things with steel pipe (sleds on bottoms) and mesh cloth on top, for those areas without any relief from the blistering GA sun.

Have at it!


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Ds 40, We have several acres of Sericea Lespedeza here. I've learned to make the most of it, since it was already here, and to say it is well established is an understatement! Both cows and goats love it when it's young. After it gets the coarse stem, at about 2ft, they will eat the tops and pick the leaves off the sides, but not the stalk. Lespedeza hay is wonderful, for a legume, it cures better than clover or crownvetch because it's coarse enough to not pack down when cut and prevent drying. Of course you have to cut it young, like with grass, or it won't be palatable. Deza is a legume meaning that it fixes atmospheric nitrogen and puts it in the soil, but it does it at a much lower rate than say clovers or other legumes.

Another thing to consider is that Lespedeza has tannins that are "natural" internal parasite inhibitors. Goats (don't know about cows) will not develop internal parasites while on the Deza. Research this on the web and you'll find studies that show that even animals with severe worm loads are improved by just a Deza diet without using wormers. 

Our Lespedeza is mixed in with grass, and seems to keep about a 50-50 ratio, neither outcompeting the other. I would probably say that it's overall a plus for our farm, but would not sow large quantities of it, especially in fields that touch, as it does spread by seed and the woods around that field have deza in them. It's not marketable for horse hay, which we sell alot of, so for that reason I don't want too much of it, but overall I think it's a good thing to have some of. It regrows quicker than most grasses and gives 3, sometimes 4 cuts of hay. It's summer growth is better than the mixed grasses it's planted with, as in drought weather the grasses are stunted and dried while the deza gets tall. Can't say if thats due to deeper root systems or what.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
Give the cattle access to the lane that goes to water and let them have access to the woods off the same lane. The black cattle will eat early morning and late evening. I can think of nothing better for them to do in the hot midday than the lay around in the woods and chew their cud and get fat while having consumed reduced amounts of grass due to low energy needs.


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## agmantoo

RosewoodfarmVA
Hi Nathan, I am pleased to hear that you are getting along nicely with the Sericea. The only reason that horses don't eat the sericea is that it is not available. The person that I mentioned that bales some recently ran short of the hay he was selling and his buyer was given a few bales of "other hay" for a trial. The buyer called back and committed to buying all the "other hay" the man had. He raved over how his horses like this "other hay" and how good it looked and smelled. I do not understand why you would ever let the sericea get more than ~16 tall. I know that the stem will get woody. Would it not be better to keep the sericea mowed or grazed to the point of wasting it if the situation did not permit haying? I am still trying to determine how to work some Summer grazing (hot, dry, droughty, non grass growing time) using sericea into my system without giving up that acreage to fescue grass production during the Winter. I realize that I could shift back and forth on sericea and rye grass but I do not like the lull in between. I am wanting forage either growing available for grazing, grazed or stockpiled 365/yr. Sericea will not stockpile IMO.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Agman, That field didn't grow enough for the last cutting to warrant cutting for hay, so I left it. I grazed it that fall/early winter and they grazed the grass down but only ate the leaves/tops of the Lespedeza. Also, I know that they don't like the stalks because often in spring I cut one round of hay, then graze during summer drought. Around the edges of the field and many places into the woods 30 or 40 feet, there is tall Deza that didn't get mowed for hay. This is where they will eat the tops and leaves and leave the stalks. Surprisingly, if I don't mow it down, the Deza will put out new leaves all up and down the stalk, instead of shooting out again at the lower level like grass does. 

Yes I try to keep it cut, as it is in mixed grass and so it's managed with grass in mind. It does seem to grow much better in bad drought than grass does. The spring greenup is later, usually the first cut of hay doesn't have that much deza, but summer hay has alot and fall growth is fast up til frost. Even in winter they will pick over the deza stalks to get what leaves they can get. 

I've been thinking alot about irrigation and wonder, with the fuel cost to irrigate and time/equipment, would it be better to irrigate a small area to increase production for a few months, or is it better to cut hay during spring boom for summer drought/winter feeding? Just wondering, even with irrigation, you still have all that spring grass to utilize, so it's not taking anything away from grazing by cutting excess for hay. I'm just trying to process all the $$ aspects. Fuel costs to irrigate seem to me to be about the same as cutting hay, from a fuel/tractor hours running standpoint. What are your thoughts? 

Also, Which is better, to spend that $$ irrigating, or to purchase/clear additional land that would increase drought carrying capacity, plus all the growth that you'd get in good rainy years? In other words, irrigation only helps during bad dry weather. That same $$ could be put to increasing total cleared land, so that not only does it help with drought, but in good years produces lots of additional grass to either hay or pasture. Still wrestling with this idea. Thoughts?


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## agmantoo

RosewoodfarmVA
I am having to cut this short so I will only address a portion of your post at this time. With this portion of a statement posted ("you still have all that spring grass to utilize, so it's not taking anything away from grazing by cutting excess for hay.") there is a segment that needs addressing. I use to give excess forage away to others to make hay as I viewed I was getting the unwanted growth removed for free. What I was doing was giving my nutrients away without realizing the fact. I no longer do that. Instead I run the bushhog. A single 4x5 ft round bale has $36 worth of nutrient in it when compared to the price of fertilizer. Anything that leaves your place needs to be considered as to how that departure is going to impact the bottom line.


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## twohunnyz

Thank you for the reply, Agmantoo! I sort of figured we'd have to feed hay for some of the winter. Water will be an issue since none of the properties in the area have water rights. A developed spring or well are our only options. Thanks for the help!


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach,
I know that we are jumping around on subjects but this discussion is a lot like this time of year. There is a lot to be done and a little time to get it done. About a week ago I was urging you to get some things done in the pasture knowing that time waits on none of us. Today I was reviewing where I was going to move the cattle next because as I stated previously I have finished the stockpiled grass and I need to get on schedule myself. I want to share with everyone and to demonstrate what I have stated regarding rotational pastures getting a head start. Here is the same area that I grazed in the latter part of Dec. and early Jan. This grass is ahead of the grass in other pastures in the area.








then I went across the farm to the area that was grazed the second week in Feb. This area was not grazed below the 3 inch height because I did not need to conserve as much as I thought that I needed to earlier. You can see a noticeable difference. I was surprised at how much it recovered in a month.


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## agmantoo

RosewoodfarmVA
Regarding the irrigating......
This is complicated to me, particularly since I have no experience with irrigating. for a short term drought surely we could get by with some hay stored in the dry. I know it would take not less than 3 round bales per day which would equate to not less than $90/day. When the drought hits has an impact also. Drought for a 6 week period in the Summer would be an inconvenience that I could manage without hay. A 12 week period in mid Summer and into the Fall would be a disaster. Had I made hay with the Spring surplus the drought itself would not impact that feeding period. What would be unmanageable would be what would I feed through the Winter as the grass could not have recovered with no rain? Including the 12 week drought period on dry paddocks and hay and then the Winter with no grass would be the equivalent to two Winters back to back. Once the hay on hand was depleted then the market would hold at ransom the hay available at some exorbitant price. The quality of the hay may be suspect and the animals could lose condition and not rebreed. This just combines loss on top of loss IMO.
If we were able to irrigate, in my mind I feel we could basically move along in somewhat a normal manner by increasing the output on smaller acreage using the water and planting seasonal forages. Where do you see the shortfall in this?


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for the visual, Agman. I know I can make all the plans I want in my head or on paper, but what's actually on the ground for forage will determine where is best for the herd.

Both pics look pretty good to me, but I can definitely see the difference in what's available!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
Can you see how this growth will suppress the growth of what weeds that may be present? Hopefully the weeds will not germinate under these circumstances. If they do manage to sprout then they are going to be impacted by stress. 

Are you still feeding hay or have your pastures started producing enough growth to feed the herd?


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## RosewoodfarmVA

True, Agman, however, if you were to utilize that spring excess by making hay instead of bushhogging, you would have that hay available at little expense, plus still keeping the nutrients tied up in the farm. In fact, the cows would convert that bushhogged field of grass to manure, more easy to break down, full of good bacteria, and healthier for the soil than cut grass IMO. So where to get the hay isn't an issue, as usually we have tons of excess forage that goes underutilized in spring.

The bigger issue, which you addressed, is the great stress that drought, severe drought, places on the forage, and how it "sets back" the grass recovery time, often even killing some plants like it did 2 years ago. Irrigation would certainly reduce the heat stress and such on the plants.

Not to change the subject, but, I'm curious, if you irrigated with enough to equal spring rains, would you still get spring quality and quantity growth, or even given good water would the growth be less in summer/fall because of diminished day-lengths? In other words, with a proper irrigation system, would you be able to maintain spring type growth all through summer to fall, or would it naturally taper down as days get shorter anyway? 

I guess to me the biggest impediment to irrigation is that it would require a new set of equipment, that would not be able to be cheaply acquired like old hay equipment, and that even with irrigation you still have all that excess spring growth to utilize. Of course if I could find decent used irrigation equipment it would be obvious that it would be an asset to the farm, in addition to haymaking. What do you say on this?


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Also, yes I must agree that irrigation would maximize growth per acre, one of my goals for our farm.


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## godsgapeach

I can definitely tell that the weeds would have a harder time producing and thriving.

We are still feeding hay but there's almost enough grazing to stop. It's just so green/new they still need a bit of hay. Hopefully by this time next year the picture will be different!


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Agman I re-read your comments on the Sericea Lespedeza and how you were thinking about mixing it with the Fescue for summer grazing. In our field there is a lot of Fescue, infact right now the fescue is about 6-8 inches tall (I am going to start grazing it next week once the ground dries some), and from looking at the field you would think it's 99% fescue, you can't even see any deza at all. The Fescue will outgrow the Deza in spring, along about May 1st it will start growing, and about the time you'll take 1st cut the Deza will be about 6 inches tall, but regrowth is much greater for the Deza in summer than fescue. Usually by the time I'm done cutting first cut, the fescue has already slowed down, but the deza is just getting started. As for stockpiling, if you graze the Lespedeza about Aug/Sep, I think the Fescue should do fine for stockpiling, even if there is a little deza it won't hinder the fescue growth by that time as fescue growth rate will have caught up with the deza IF you have grazed/mowed the deza summer growth. I do think you could make a Fescue/deza mix work. Here at our place during drought the Deza is the only thing that still grows, all the grasses and clovers stop. 

Usually 1st cut is 90% fescue/grass with 10% deza, 2nd cut (July) is 70% deza 30% grass, fall cut is 50-50. If mowed/grazed end of August I think the fall grazing stockpiling could be 75% grass. 
Just my thoughts on it.


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## agmantoo

I bought seed today but I am having second thoughts. Everything I have read tonight suggests not planting due to the sericea choking the fescue out. My real life experience is that if I control the height I should not have a problem. I can control the height and I can control the stem size. One article I read says the cattle will graze the sericea readily and that is what I have observed. Another article says the cattle will not eat the sericea given another choice of forage. What I do not want to happen is to get overrun with sericea on all the paddocks. The planting rate is 20 to 40 lbs/acre. I plan only to plant 5 to 10lbs/acre on a large test plot (10 acres). Where you have the densest sericea growing in the hay field what have you observed with the sericea spreading? Have you observed the sericea suppressing the other plants? Thanks


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## RosewoodfarmVA

I can just about guarantee it won't choke out the fescue! We only have it in one field, 5 acres +-. It has been here for many years, as the farm hadn't been properly tended for 15+ years before we bought it. It has spread (I'm assuming by seed) into the wooded areas about 20-30 feet around the field, where it gets some light, and also I'm assuming because the hay doesn't always get cut all the way to the edge so some deza goes to seed there. It has not spread to another field that is separated by a farm road, 20 feet of graveled bare path. In 5 years of feeding that field's hay (to the animals in other fields) I haven't seen any seedlings come up, so I'm assuming I cut it before any seeds were viable. I don't think you have to worry about it overtaking the grass, as I said, I have seen that it's main growth is during the grass's off season. They seem compatible in that when the grass is really growing the deza is not, and viceversa. It seems that the equilibrium is about 50-50, meaning that if you look at it during growing season there's about half grass half deza. But in summer drought you see more deza and in spring and fall more grass, and winter grass only. Right now, you wouldn't even guess that there's deza there, as the grass has greened up and filled in thick, while the deza hasn't even sprouted yet. The grass right now is just as thick there as in the fields with mixed clover/grass. That field also has some crownvetch in it, as I began feeding hay with it to try to introduce it. Last year's hay the crownvetch used the deza as a ladder, like it does the grass, and the hay in many places was 3-4 feet tall, before the grass even started heading out! We got 400 square bales (40lb) off that 5 acres in May. The deza also seems to tolerate shade or tree root moisture competition more than grass, as around the field under the drip line the grass stops, while the deza continues, somewhat reduced, as much as 30 feet in places under the trees (mostly 30-40yo pines). As to palatability, you know that cows won't touch 2 ft tall fescue, same with the lespedeza, as long as it's short, -18", they'll eat it just fine. My experience is that given the same height (short) fescue or deza, they'll prefer the deza over grass. It's only when it gets 24" or more that it gets really tough, even then they will still pick the tops and leaves off the stalk, which is more than they'll do for dried up fescue stalks! Deza has no value for stockpiling though, so it needs to be mowed down early fall to get it out of the way for the Fescue to grow. By the time fall growth of the fescue resumes, the deza is slowing down.

Having seen your place I would say that the place you recently cleared, which is separated from the rest of the farm by the block of woods, would be a good place to try it, as you won't have to worry about seed traveling and contaminating your "pure" fescue. Also, because it is sloping and more prone to erosion, it would be a good summer pasture (with the deza) in that the cows won't be on it during wet weather, damaging the sloping land. The seed is small and hard, so you could graze during wet weather to trample the seed in. Just my opinion.

The cattle farmer across the road sowed lespedeza in his fescue hayfields years ago, and swears it was the best thing he ever did! If I didn't sell hay routinely, I'd plant more of it (or let it seed out), but it seems the hay buyers want either straight orchardgrass or mixed grass. Anything they have never heard of (or can't pronounce) won't sell. I sort of want to keep my options open, so I'm not in a hurry to plant more. I'm really excited to have so much crownvetch! I've tried for several years to let it seed out and this spring the fields are absolutely full of seedlings! That's wonderful stuff. I'm still curious to see what the reed canary grass does in the wetland. I walked down there this morning and it was still standing in places 2-4 inches deep in water, but the RCG is starting to shoot out. It made it through the wet winter, so far so good!


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> I consider this thread to be godsgapeach's but I doubt that she will object as I know she is in the market for the "right kind" of animals for her rotational grazing project. She is considering a Pharo sire at this time. She is also going to cull so the frame size discussion should interest her also. We should hear from her soon.





godsgapeach said:


> I'm not at all opposed to breed discussion here! I think it's completely relevant to the rotational topic since some breeds and certain body types are definitely significant for a successful program.
> 
> ArmyDoc, just for the record, prior discussion here has sold me on black angus, but my brother still leans toward red. We won't, however, have shade in all paddocks as Agman does. But I think I've convinced him that we can build some portable shed type things with steel pipe (sleds on bottoms) and mesh cloth on top, for those areas without any relief from the blistering GA sun.
> 
> Have at it!


Thanks guys! As I look at it, red is only a detriment if you a market placing a premium on black, you are retainng your own replacement cows, AND you want red cows. If you aren't trying to retain red cows, it makes no difference if you buy a good red cow (makes it on grass, weans 50%+ of her weight and breeds back every year) because with a homozygus black bull all the calves will be black. What you are selling will bring the same price, while you get an easier keeping cow. Actually, you should see an improvement in the calves, because while black, they would have a slick coat for some improvement in heat tollerance, and fly/tick resistance and get a bump from hybrid viggor.

For me, since I will be trying to establish cows that breed true for the slick coat, and breeding back to achieve purebred angus status for registering purposes, I would have to sell calves at market that don't make the cut, presumabley at a discount to otherwise equal black calves. (seems silly to discount on the hide color - you don't eat the hide. But that's marketing for you...) But, as I see it, that's the price of getting to my ultimate goal - a group of consistant frame 3 cows, with superior heat tollerance, fly/tick resistance, marbling, tenderness, and ability to go on grass alone. 

But once I get there, I would think the cows would be more valuable & marketable, because they would meet everyone's needs. Those wanting red angus, obviousely. But Also to those wanting terminal black calves, because the mothers would be easy keepers, while throwing black calves out of an Black Angus (or othe breed) bull. 

Do you see problems in this thinking?

The biggest problem I see with the above discussion is the justification for crossing back to Red Angus. Senepol cattle are already red, with a slick coat, better fly/tick resistance, has a reputation for marbling well on grass... It does have a bit of ear, but not as much as brangus. So maybe I should just be focussing on breeding superior Senepol cows...


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## Allen W

Armydoc as far as I know there is no breed up program for Angus cattle for registration purposes. You might want to check that out.


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## ArmyDoc

Allen W said:


> Armydoc as far as I know there is no breed up program for Angus cattle for registration purposes. You might want to check that out.


I believe that is true for black angus, but it is not true for the Red Angus breed. They do sepparate the 1A(100%) from the 1B (purebred - 15/16 or 93.75+% for bulls and 7/8 or 87.5+% for cows) but but the 1B cattle can be registered as pure bred.

The primary benefit of crossing to Red Angus, as opposed to sticking with pure bred Senepol is that there is a far larger pool of genetics, with more extensive testing available to choose from to improve your herd. And of course, the "angus" name for marketing...


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
Just a few questions.
My feeder calves are sold to go to feed lots most often in cold climates because that is where the grain is located. With the short haired Senepol genetics I would have to find a different group of buyers. Where do you expect the buyers of your breeding stock to sell the offspring these animals produce?
Is it true that Senepol cattle have problems cycling on predictive schedules?
I know that Senepol cattle put weight on readily but the buyers for commercial feed lots do not want to buy them where I sell because they say that Senepol cattle will not yield as high as Black Angus. Is this true?
With the frame size of the Senepols how do you plan to get to frame 3 if you stay within the breed?


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## agmantoo

On post #286 I mentioned I would take a photo of the old cow and her calf so that we could track her condition. The purpose of this is to demonstrate how the "right type" cow even at an advance age can recover from birthing, feed her calf and rebreed and while improving body condition. I had just ear tagged the calf and the cow would not let me get close with the cell phone camera.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> Just a few questions.
> My feeder calves are sold to go to feed lots most often in cold climates because that is where the grain is located. With the short haired Senepol genetics I would have to find a different group of buyers. Where do you expect the buyers of your breeding stock to sell the offspring these animals produce?
> Is it true that Senepol cattle have problems cycling on predictive schedules?
> I know that Senepol cattle put weight on readily but the buyers for commercial feed lots do not want to buy them where I sell because they say that Senepol cattle will not yield as high as Black Angus. Is this true?
> With the frame size of the Senepols how do you plan to get to frame 3 if you stay within the breed?


Agmantoo,

I've only talked at length with one Senepol breeder. He's located just north of Knoxville TN. I asked him how they did in winter, and he says they grow a winter coat much like angus, but that it "slicks off" (his words, not mine) much more than the angus do in the summer. He said it can be difficult to tell Senepol influenced cattle in the winter by site, but it's easy to tell in the summer. NorthEastern TN isn't all that far north, but his cattle do ok with the amount of snow he sees there. I'll send him an e-mail and and see where he markets his calves, and if they have any problem with the commercial feed lots.

I haven't heard of any problems with cycling predictably, but I'll ask him about that too.

When you say yield, are you talking about grade, or finished weight, or both? I have only seen one study, which looked at senepol sired vs Angus sired calves out of hereford heiffers. It said: "The Angus crossbreds had a higher av. dressing percentage and quality grade and a lower (i.e. more desirable) yield grade than the Senepol crossbreds." Publisher: Texas Agricultural Experiment Station

This is one of the main reasons I was looking to breed back to pure bred red angus, while preserving the slick hair trait. Each breed site sites article that show their merits compared to other breeds. But Angus, by virtue of their sheer numbers is the standard to which others are compared. My goal is to produce a strain of Red Angus that would perform better in the Georgia heat. (one could argue that I could try to do the same thing, generating a slick coated black angus, but the black angus ran 1.5 hotter than the hereford, where as the hereford ran only .5 degrees hotter than the Senepol, so red color seems to be more important than the slick coat... which begs the question, why not just raise Red Angus?)

The cattle in the gentleman I spoke to in KY ranged from frame size 3.5 to 5, with most of them being 4. I don't know how accurate this is - I asked him what frame size they were, and he started pointing out different cows, saying "well, that one is about... and that one is a ... and that one is..." and so forth. He has been influenced by Kit Pharo's philosophy (he's the one who first told me about him, and how to get on his mailing list). His average frame size 2 years ago was 4, and he was working on moving his average frame size smaller.


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## godsgapeach

Finally yesterday and today I got the bushhogging of the persimmons done. And Agman, I have to laugh at the comment you made way a long time ago about not knowing what you'd do with all the flat land. It's FAR from flat anywhere--nearly knocked my teeth out bouncing around out there ;->.

I was encouraged though to see quite a bit of clover and miscellaneous legumes and forbs besides the fescue greening up. It's out there, just patchy and low, but hopefully giving the area a rest will help give 'em a leg up.

I'm hoping tomorrow that little brother and I can get the girls off the pasture. 

Thanks for all the suggestions--I'm working as hard as I can!

Have a great weekend!


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## ds40

Thanks for your comments on lespedeza. I have some all over the paddocks Korean and Kobe. It is managed in an attempt to allow it to reseed each year, however it is an iffy production from year to year. It appears to be less productive as the clovers become more productive. Sericea is a noxious weed in Mo. but that dosen't mean they do anything about it especially since it was planted on highway wright of ways years ago. The one small patch I have came from such plantings. Cattle will strip the leaves off of it when they are in that paddock seldom eating the stems. It is only about a 30x50 patch but has grown a little each year.


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## ds40

I always find this time of year to be a little confusing, for the most part I"m out of stockpile except for some paddocks that had not been grazed very short last fall. I am topping those with a quick rotation and tight fencing to either tramp it down or graze it to allow sunlight to the emerging clovers. Clover was coming strong two weeks ago about 3 inches tall and several nights in the high teens and low twentys frosted the tops off pretty badly, this is established ladino not a new seeding. The question becomes to do a flash graze and eat those damaged leaves so the plants energy goes into new growth or leave it alone? I mowed a strip of it with the riding mower just high enough to remove the damaged leaves and in 4 days time the mowed section is greener and 2 inches taller than the untouched sections. Your thoughts?


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## agmantoo

ds40
I too am out of stockpiled fescue but I am seeing some paddocks with regrowth. I adhere to one self imposed rule when it comes to determining what to do when in between consumed old growth and recovering new growth. I always grazed the tallest growth that I have regardless. I would leave the clover alone and let it respond to the changing weather on its on. To graze it now will have the cattle trampling it impacting recovery and to mechanical clip the clover will damage the good leaves along with the weather bitten leaves. Nature should have equipped the clover to cope with the situation in the best manner. A question of you,,,,do you know of anyone sowing Red River Crab Grass for Summer grazing? http://www.noble.org/Ag/Forage/Crabgrass4Forage/synopsis.html#UsingCg


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## SusyTX

I'm learning alot by reading this very long thread - thank you all so much!

One question, though, as we are just beginning to set up our rotational grazing. By stockpiled forage, do you mean cut hay or are you referring to pastures/paddocks allowed to grow to their maximum without being cut or grazed, until at some point the cattle are turned in to finally graze the high grass?


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## agmantoo

SusyTX 
As rotational grazers, depending on location, we make little hay or no hay. Instead we let the cattle do the harvest. I live in growing zone 7 and I make no hay. I have just finished the sixth Winter without feeding hay. As the season approaches to where hay will be needed we allocate a portion of the pasture referred to as paddocks as areas that the cattle are prohibited from grazing. The forage is allowed to grow and is left in the paddock. With many forages when frost hits the protein and palatalbility rise significantly. This is the forage that we refer to as stockpiled. In turn, we rotate the cattle over this stockpiled feed over the Winter. This results in many obvious advantages such as reduced expense and less labor and better and more feed on the same available land. There are numerous subtle advantages also, one is that the parasites life cycle is interrupted and another is that the cattle distribute the manure.


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## francismilker

Agman,
I've been following this post for some time now and I've read and learned some interesting things about rotational grazing. I've been hesitant to make any comments or questions due to the fact that I just don't understand the art of growing grass yet. I was told by a very successful beef farmer in my area, "before you start growing cows, you'll need to learn to grow grass" and I believe him in the fullest extent. However, myself like others put the cart before the horse and am now fighting an uphill battle trying to maintain a herd through winter even with feeding hay. (which since I have my own haying equipment and enjoy making hay, I don't mind having it around at it's production cost for me.)
I must say though, without being hasty or scenical (sp?), I'm not sure all of us have the ability, or the money and time to do what you have done. I realize that you are making a profit while a lot of us hobby farmers are just getting plain ol' enjoyment out of it but from all the pics I've seen posted, you own a place that has some really good potential for growing grass. I know, I've read many of your posts where you discussed and showed pics of before and after where you cleared and planted land but the pics I've seen don't resemble the before and after of my rolling, rock growing, ravine having, brushy, goat habitat of a place that I'm trying to accomplish these results on. 
I've got neighbors down the road that have lush grasses growing on fine lowland riverbottom ground as well I have neighbors the other direction that have fine, lush grasses growing on rolling upland hills. I just don't think I can ever achieve the goal of being totally hay independant or anywhere close to that with the kind of place I own. My lease pasture that I keep my beef cows on does really well with little or no maintenance for my area and I'm able to raise a cow/calf pair on approx. 5 acres. 

I recently visited Colorado and had to go through the northern parts of NM and noticed out there that many ranches were vast enough to follow the highway for 10 or more miles on each side of the highway for as far as the eye could see. I asked on gentleman in a fuel station in Dalhart, TX how many cow/calf pairs per acre and he just kind of laughed and said, "it's usually about 400 acres per cow calf pair". I didn't take him seriously until he said "I'm not joking". With the arid climate they have out there grass simply just doesn't grow without irrigation for the most part. I think in terms of rotational grazing, these people would not be able to do it. 

I guess what I'm asking is simply this: Did you start out with a desireable piece of ground that has lots of potential? Or, did you spend the money and time to give it potential. Most of the time I've got more money than time and I'm usually flat broke. 

I'm truly not trying to be fecescious, but I seem to think we could be getting false hope. You mentioned earlier having the potential of running 100 head on 161 acres. That's absolutely absurd in my area even if you did have the money for commercial fertilizer and use irrigation. The hoof traffic alone would destroy the grasses around here. 

Can you give me any insight on these thoughts?

Thanks,
Francismilker


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## ds40

I do not know of anyone locally growing red river crab grass for grazing. About six or seven years ago I bought 20 lbs of it and seeded it by hand in all the bare spots I could find in several paddocks. I already had some crabgrass in those paddocks and personally I can't tell red river from the native. The crabgrass has spread all over the farm in patches and provides quite a bit of summer grazing. I have always fertilized in late spring to promote any warm season growth. My soil has always been very low in phos. I've used DAP to build it up in mid May and then 2 ton per acre turkey litter in mid August. This seems to be working to encourage some warm season grasses to come into a primarily fescue pasture. Ladino and volunteer white clovers make up 30 to 40 percent of the sward in spring and fall. I also have some Indian grass and foxtail coming in. Lespedeza is there, but as the "p" increases it does not seem to dominate like it used to. I guess it could be disease. The crabgrass needs a fair amount of nitrogen, which is only applied in August it also needs rain. Last year we were extremly wet crabgrass would be nearly a foot tall on 45 day rotations.


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## SusyTX

agmantoo,
Thanks so much for the clarification, it truly helps. Even though we don't have our acreage broken up yet into smaller pastures/paddocks, we had a great stand of grass this fall (mix of coastal bermuda, rye, and native, along with some arrowleaf clover) on 11 acres and our small herd of Dexters didn't graze all of it down. We fed out some purchased square bales every weekend just for piece of mind, but it probably wasn't necessary. We're zone 8 and are adding additional grasses/chicory this spring, and will add more rye and clover (perhaps ball) this fall. We've also seeded a lightly wooded, recently cleared area with a blend containing alfalfa...not sure if it will survive the Texas heat, but thought we'd give it a try.

Keep writing, I'm learning much and the more I read the more things I find I need to research!


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## gwithrow

one more question for the MAN, we have a small area that is in recovery from being used as a feedlot....18 months ago...we put the turkey and chicken tractors out there last summer and there are spots of nice left over feed sprouting and growing well...the fescue seems to be recovering and the clover sprinkled out as we moved the tractors is coming along...so the question is: should I let this grow without cutting? or keep it cut....we redistributed the patties and want to keep the cows off this til late fall, it is a perfect calving area or small paddock when we need to keep an eye on a cow or pair...this little paddock was limed well a year ago....ok here is question 2....if we have more grass than the cows can eat this summer...big if and depends on rain, should the fields be cut if the cows can't keep up with it? thanks we all appreciate being able to use you as a resource...Genna


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## agmantoo

francismilker
I do consider myself a grass farmer first and foremost. Before growing grass I did grow soybean, wheat, barley, millet and some corn. I have always used used machinery and tried to be thrifty. I am still running the same tractor that I bought used in 1980 when I was starting to farm. We have what is referred to as roadside farmers, ones that had a primary employment for income and made their hobby as farmers and threw as much money at the hobby as possible to impress others traveling down the road. I do not fall in that category IMO. I do pick up trash and I try to keep the weeds between the fence and the highway mowed. I have been know to transport every rotten bale of hay that anyone would give me, I have hauled free sawdust and I harvest my own seed to plant in the pasture with a $300 antique combine. When I bought the beef farm it had been for sale for a long time with no one interested in buying it. It was a grown up, soil depleted, eroded, worn out farm with a number of small patches of land for fields. Initially I had a well used $10,000 track loader that I started salvaging the place with a little at a time. I did the easy stuff first making the little patches into larger fields. I got municipal waste and chicken litter to enrich the soil and I used a by product to for PH correction. Later I sold the merchantable timber and used that income to improve the land and to increase the fields. I bought adjoining land when I had the money but this land was cheap because no one wanted it either. I was buying undesirable land at 30 cents on the dollar as compared to "good" land prices. So you can see I was not born with this gifted nor inherited and I came from a non farming family that lived on a postage stamp size lot in a most modest home. The reason that I am telling all of this is that I know anyone can do the same. You need to match your animals to the land that you own and you need to manage the land to its best potential. I know a very successful cattleman that runs cattle in a near desert condition (less than 12 inches of rain per year) profitable at the rate of 1 cow/calf pair per 25 acres and he rotates. He has learned to match what he can produce to what the land can support and over time he has improved that capability. That is the same thing I have done. You and everyone else can do it also! In real estate the saying is location, location, location and with the pastures it is management, management, management.


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

I use all available land for grazing and as you saw even the lanes. Keep the grass cut at the height that the main stem and seed head exits above the leaves. Do not let the grass go to seed. Have the rotary cutter sharp so that the leaves that get cut are cut clean and not beat off with ragged ends that dry out.

Cut any excess grass in the same manner. However during the hot dry months force the animals to eat this so that in late August the grass has no thatch and give the grass some type of fertilizer kick in the last of August. This will cause the grass to get a growth spurt off the night dew that we get and will give the grass a head start on Fall growth.


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## agmantoo

SusyTX
Sounds as if you are off to a great start. Having excess grass it a good feeling isn't it? What you need to concentrate on is managing this excess to carry the animals without having to obtain hay and having at the same time high quality forage for them to graze. I feel that this is the reason you are doing all the reading. If I can help, let me know.


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## Oxankle

Here in Oklahoma sericea lespedeza grows like weeds. Cattle will eat it when it is very small and tender, but they will eat tender grass in preference after it gets even a little bit stemmy. They will nip the tops if you starve them to it. 

It makes excellent winter hay. Very high in protein, bales of it run thru a grinder and fed in troughs will fatten cattle pretty much as will alfalfa. A friend baled it in large round bales, took it to a mill and had his winter feed ground and mixed in bulk. He then fattened his own calves. 

Baled after it gets stemmy, in square bales and broken out in troughs the cattle will work thru the stems and eat the leaves that fall to the bottom of the trough. They will eat some of the smaller stems and nose the rest out of the trough. When the sericea is ground they eat everything. 
Ox


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## agmantoo

Ox
I have distributed Sericea Lespedeza on 10 acres and have pulled the drag harrow to give some cover. We are getting rain now and unless the grass is too competitive I should see some emerging before too long. An inquiry was make to the powers that be at NC State and I am been assured that the lespedeza should not overwhelm the other forages. The Ag professionals indicated I may have more of a problem getting the lespedeza established. With the rotational grazing coupled with my rotary mowing on a timely basis, I do not expect the stems to mature to where my beef cattle will not eat them. Wish me luck. Thanks for the feedback.


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## godsgapeach

Agman would you mind if I pm'd you a question?


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
Just an update---I have run hi tensile wire on the white composite post you steered me to inside our old perimeter fencing. The old barb wire had patches on patches. Moved in about a foot so the cows could still get the grass next to the old fence. This now gives me a source of power where ever I need it.
The place is roughly a rectangle that is 850 ft wide by 3000 feet long. I now am planning on running a 40 ft wide lane down the 3000 ft way. This lane will pass right by our stock tank and a water well. The problem with watering out of the well continously is we have to use a generator for the pump. My plan is to fence of tank so when I do have to water there they can't just wander where they want. They get their drink and then go back up the lane to whichever paddock that is currently being grazed. I have plans to extend the water from the well down the length of the lane. The problem right now is the power company want 8500 dollars to set me a pole. Their transmission line is on our place. Go figure.
Ken


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## agmantoo

Ken,I understand the lane running the 3000 ft but where in the 850 ft width will the lane be located, to one side or to the center, etc? In the 3000 ft run where is the well? The reason for asking these questions is to attempt to better understand your method of rotating the paddocks. 

Since you are having to run the generator would it not benefit you to have a large storage tank ( 2000 plus gallons) that you could fill from the generator powered well and then gravity flow that water to the cattle waterer? Seems to me you could put a predetermined amount of gas in the generator and let it fill the water tank until the gas is consumed and you would not have to remain while the tank fills.


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## LibertyIIE

Agman
The lane would go right up the middle. I do have an existing 2000 gal tank that is hooked to the well and is located on old gooseneck at the highest elevation on the place. The well and pond are located at the lowest.
My intention is to start on one end and use polywire to make the moveable paddocks. The cattle would always have access to the necessary portion of the lane to get to a water tank or the pond.
My plan would be to put scattered water tanks in the lane. Is that correct???
I just changed the generator from gas to propane so fuel is easier to handle and does not go stale. The propane tank is 250 gal.
Ken


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## agmantoo

Ken, obviously you have everything under control! However lets discuss the water. I have no experience with the small multiple scattered water troughs that some grazers employ if that is what you are referencing. I have the Ritchie type waterers that have the balls covering the drinking openings and the water is delivered via underground lines and stays cool. IMO it is too hot here and in your location to have lines above ground. A garden hose will get so hot here in the Summer the water will actually burn ones skin. How could an animal be expected to drink that? It would be nice to have water at close intervals but I had rather see the animals walk farther but have refreshing drinking water when they get there than to have water that is hot. Water intake is more important that forage in most instances.


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
Any water line in this area has to be buried. I just thought I would bury the line about 2/3 of the length of the lane. My son owns a ditchwitch(that helps). As far as what water trough I would put at that location is still open.
Ken


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## agmantoo

ken
The experts state that the cattle will go to water individually if the water source if less than 800 ft away. This would minimize the size of the waterers needed if the herd did not go as a group.


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## godsgapeach

Hey, Agman, aren't Ritchie waterers some of the pricier ones? I've read a bit about them, but not a lot. Can you tell why you chose the ones you did?
Thanks!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach, you are correct that Ritchie waterers are the most pricey ones on the market. I did some research prior to settling on the Ritchie brand and the results indicated that among the top brands these were the best. I visited a couple of users of the Ritchie brand along with users of the competitive brands. I found some of the competitive brands having valve problems along with freezing. The maintenance and the repair parts were higher on the lower costs units. My conclusion was to go with the Ritchie units as I was wanting performance and reliability. In my attempts to get good value for the money spent I did search for discounts or promotions. None existed so at year end I called around and found a dealer in an adjacent state that in order to avoid carry over of inventory into the new year would give me a discount and I ordered the waterers from him off the internet. My final price was less than the next lowest units that I researched. An acquaintance that hunts in the area where the units were stocked picked them up for me while on a hunting trip. I gave him a hundred plus lbs of grass seed that I had harvested for his help and he seemed as happy as I was.


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## godsgapeach

Wow! You hit the jackpot then. Just curious, I know some products (other industries, I mean) have a set price regardless of location and won't allow the dealer to discount--where basically everybody on internet and in retail stores has the same price. Does Ritchie do that or is there some flexibility there?


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## agmantoo

Ritchie dictates to the dealers the price they must market the waterers. I even went to Ritchie to see if they have seasonal discounts. You would have thought that I was insulting them with the question if you had heard the response! However, I have since seen Ritchie offering a discount but it was miserly. If you can locate a independent seller of Ritchie products that is the only place that will cut you some slack. Seems that Ritchie does market products through a few small town feed stores that only have a single farm supply in town. If you contact Ritchie they will tell you sources for their products but they will list the dealers first and the independents last. That is what happened in my situation as I recall. If you can locate a small Southern States store that is an independent Southern States outlet the probability is good that they can get the Ritchie products. A franchised SS store will not help you. I did find an internet source a distance away that had good prices but the shipping was a killer.


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## godsgapeach

I'll check into it! Thanks for the heads-up to look for the independents. 

I've got another drawing for the paddock layout. Hopefully I can get it posted before the night's over. I was just on for a quick check right now...

Thanks!


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## godsgapeach

Wstevenl I see that you're on. If you don't mind could you answer the questions I had about your water system on post # 270?

Thanks a bunch!


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## agmantoo

Since you are wanting to move ahead and haven't yet received a reply here is a link to couplers. I do not know if they are the ones Wsteven uses however. With the number of animal you have you are going to have to have a rugged system and one that will function without your attention. Have you seen the waterers made from a very large tire? They are common in Virginia. Given more time I would have gone that direction. I will find you a link to those.
http://kygraziers.com/kgshop/product.php?xProd=295


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## godsgapeach

Thanks as always, Agman! I have seen the tire waterers--somewhere in all my findings I have a plan for one. That is a definite possibility for a larger watering station probably back on my end of the property where there is no well (except my household one).

And since I hadn't gotten a reply on the questions earlier I did some digging around and found the couplers you showed from KYgrazier and found a less expensive site for the risers. 

I think the plan here is to run HDPE underground with the quick connects. (I can't get it all MY way ;->--have to compromise on some things.)


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## wstevenl

godsgapeach said:


> Questions for wstevenl:
> 
> Can you give me a source for the quick connects you have? Did you purchase them as a unit or did you have to buy the individual components to assemble them?
> 
> What size pvc did you use?
> 
> In looking at the pics of your quick connect, how deep are they set? Do you cover the hole when it's not in use? (or am I misinterpreting the picture entirely?)
> 
> Thanks for your help!


godsgapeach,
Sorry I didn't notice this question. We had our fence and watering system installed by a fencing company (now that we see how they did things we'll do it our selves next time). We purchased all of our watering system through them, except for the pipe but, you can get the same valves at http://powerflexfence.com/catalog01.20.html we just ordered 3 new risers, or male ends, from them yesterday. The valves are called Plasson Quick Coupler valves. They have worked very well. We also ordered an O'Brien geared reel if you want a quality geared reel they seem to be the cheapest. We started with 3 Gallagher "Econo Reels" and one is already broke, but the nice Gallaghers are around $60. The O'Brien is $48. 

Our fencing guys buried the water lines as deep as they could trench and then ran a T over a few feet to our fence line and installed the valve at about 24". I think that puts the lid of the valve a little less deep than 24". I believe that all of our pipe is 1 1/2" PVC (it was the larger of the two choices they gave us and I'm pretty sure it was 1 1/2"ID. When we expand, I'm thinking of tieing off of this line and using some of the black pipe and compression fittings that Powerflex sells. I've heard/read from alot of people that the pipe gets covered in grass, then in a thatch of residue, and before long is buried in the pasture. If this is so then I'm not too worried about the water being hot, at least not long term. We did have a Rubbermaid trough that was just 12" tall, it had a float and valve and we would dump it, put the hose in it and drag it to the next pasture. 
Just yesterday I took at plastic drum and cut it off at about 20" tall but I left about a 1/4 of the top a little higher and cut a hole in that high side so that it had a handle. I then drilled a hole and connected the float valve to it. This seems like it will work much better because the other trough didn't drag well, this one has a smooth bottom but is also light enough to just carry. A water hose connects this to the Plasson valve. I had to use a few layers of plumbers tape on EVERY connection to keep it all sealed tight. Because I herd is small I only used a 30 gallon drum (cut off) but if we had more cows I'd use a 55 gallon. 
I'm trying to find a good cheap way to cover the holes. I used metal lids from paint buckets to cover a few, but it didn't work too well. The holes are centered under our single HT wire so nothing steps in them but stuff does fall in them and need to be pulled out. I don't think that freezing was ever an issue this winter, even when they were open because the water is down in the pipe, not up in the top of the valve. But... I won't know until it dries up a little. It's rained so much, and it's so flat here that all of our holes have water in them.


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## wstevenl

We're starting to plan how we might expand our 10 acres of pasture by 20 acres this fall/spring. I'm coming up with ideas for how to rotate through the next 20 acres and how to water. I want to get some input from you all too.
The pasture will be built off of the side of our existing fence that is a STRAIGHT 1300' or so and will be about 670' wide. It will have 6 wire High Tensile (for future hair sheep, etc. ) on the exterior but nothing else is set in stone. our watering line is parallel to the 1300' fence but is 200' away so I'm thinking that we'll T off of it in the center of the pasture to get water to the new pasture. 
I'm having a hard time deciding if I want to try and do a center dividing fence (long ways) with quick connects under it, or a center lane with just a couple of waterers. If we could teach the cows to go under the fence, like Aggmantoo, that would be nice because it would cut down on the amount of watering spots and watering supplies but I can't convince my wife or brother in law that it will work. 

Any advice about how to split up a perfect FLAT rectangle would be appreciated.


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## agmantoo

Here is a link to how to build the tire tank waterer
http://www.giantrubberwatertanks.com/Setting The Tank.htm


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## godsgapeach

Thanks wstevenl that definitely gives me some perspective! Since my original post I had found that Plasson seemed to be the brand of choice and Agman's link above does have the valves less than I'd found them elsewhere, but I can't remember if Kencove or Powerflex was cheaper for the risers. I've got all that written down somewhere...

I appreciate all the help!


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## godsgapeach

While I'm at it, here's the latest pic of the possible plan. 









Does that look any better? We don't know what to do with the weird shape on the bottom left...


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## agmantoo

With the weird bottom piece I would think you have a perimeter fence already at what i think is a road. Just leave the partition fence out eliminating the yellow partition fence that is parallel to the orange line. From the green line continue on beside the homesite to the road and circle around anything that can be grazed. This will make the odd shaped paddock larger but you can control the grazing with in the odd shape with the polytwine. This way the area can be utilized and you will not have a lot of partition wires to work around when applying chicken litter.

I like what you have done with the layout and from what I can seen from here should function extremely well. You could leave out every other paddock fence, use the polytwine, and install the lane until you get a better idea of how the layout is working for you when you get the system into use.


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## godsgapeach

That's a great idea Agman. Yes, the perimeter fence--5 strand barbed wire--is marked in red. The blue is the planned waterline.

That area that is beyond the orange line--to the far left--is just a tough spot altogether. It goes down into the trees and then up a scrubby hill (most of the hilltop--not much for grazing, but it could be used in a pinch. 

I know it's going REALLY slowly, but we are making progress. There's an OLD fenceline that is in really bad shape on the far right that connects to the lot. Our first goal is to get it fixed up--since we have plenty of barbwire and metal posts--and then we'll get the girls moved to my end of the pasture and let the grass get ahead. I'm able to work on my own (when the weather's cooperating) on the places where a post is already set, but if there are areas without posts I'm too short to get enough leverage to slam them in. My brother and I did get a good bit done on Sunday though. Hopefully it won't rain this weekend and we'll move ahead...


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## agmantoo

wstevenl said:


> We're starting to plan how we might expand our 10 acres of pasture by 20 acres this fall/spring. I'm coming up with ideas for how to rotate through the next 20 acres and how to water. I want to get some input from you all too.
> The pasture will be built off of the side of our existing fence that is a STRAIGHT 1300' or so and will be about 670' wide. It will have 6 wire High Tensile (for future hair sheep, etc. ) on the exterior but nothing else is set in stone. our watering line is parallel to the 1300' fence but is 200' away so I'm thinking that we'll T off of it in the center of the pasture to get water to the new pasture.
> I'm having a hard time deciding if I want to try and do a center dividing fence (long ways) with quick connects under it, or a center lane with just a couple of waterers. If we could teach the cows to go under the fence, like Aggmantoo, that would be nice because it would cut down on the amount of watering spots and watering supplies but I can't convince my wife or brother in law that it will work.
> 
> Any advice about how to split up a perfect FLAT rectangle would be appreciated.


On the side of the existing 10 acre fence with the 1300 ft run where the new addition will be adjacent I would take down the permanent fence. The material would be reused for the external fence for the 1300 ft run on the added 20 acres. Now you have a rectangle that is nearly square. In the center of the now 30 acres running the 1300 direction I would build a lane about 40 ft wide. I would divert the water line to a single Ritchie CT 2000 waterer set up in the center of the lane. Using the lane paddock fences you should now have two main rectangles, one each side of the lane measuring approximately 482' by 1300'. I would divide the 1300' run into 4 equal divisions creating paddocks that are 325' x 482'. The 30 acres will now consist of 8 paddocks, 4 on each side of the lane. the polytwine for grazing allocation would be run the 325' direction. If you did not want any back grazing you could create a temporary lane back to the permanent lane using the polywire. I would prove the doubters wrong that do not believe the cattle will walk under the wire. I know the cattle will do it and without a lot of training. Send me trip expenses and I will come train the cattle. : )


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## wstevenl

Thanks for the idea's, I think we will probably keep the existing fence in place and just add a gate or two, this way we will have a more secure fence if we want to keep a separate herd of young heifers or something in the future. 
We'll definately keep this idea on the plate though.


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## agmantoo

How do you anticipate running the water system? Will the perimeter fence on the expanded 20 acres be less that what you have on the 10? If you are not careful as you expand you and going to become less efficient and the amount of work is only going to increase. Some redundant work now may save you a lot of work later.


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## wstevenl

I anticipated Teeing off of our current string of quick connect valves. Starting halfway down the field so that The new water line would end up at about the center of the new 1300' x 670' rectangle. I wanted to use the black hose on top of the ground that we could bury at a later date if we decided that we were happy with the location. 
The new fence will most likely have the exact same perimeter fence as the current one. 
One issue that I just thought of with using the existing fence material to build the new extension is that we will have a herd of cows/calves/steers on the pasture when we build the new fence. If it takes us more than a weekend to build the addition, this herd would not be all that secure.  
The cows all stay in the single wire of electric but one of the young bulls, and all of our calves go where they please. 
What do you think will cause more work and trouble in the future?


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## agmantoo

wstevenl said:


> I anticipated Teeing off of our current string of quick connect valves. Starting halfway down the field so that The new water line would end up at about the center of the new 1300' x 670' rectangle. I wanted to use the black hose on top of the ground that we could bury at a later date if we decided that we were happy with the location.
> The new fence will most likely have the exact same perimeter fence as the current one.
> One issue that I just thought of with using the existing fence material to build the new extension is that we will have a herd of cows/calves/steers on the pasture when we build the new fence. If it takes us more than a weekend to build the addition, this herd would not be all that secure.
> The cows all stay in the single wire of electric but one of the young bulls, and all of our calves go where they please.
> What do you think will cause more work and trouble in the future?


Wstevenl
I had given consideration to having one side of the fence insecure when doing the expansion but it is manageable. Install the posts even if you have to use some new ones while the existing ones remain installed. Based on the distance between the posts in the current fence it may be possible to remove every other one to be reused on the new fence. Once you get the posts installed, remove the top and next to the top runs of the 6 stands and install them as the 1st and third on the new fence. The remaining strands will hold the cattle until another weekend. You can always reinforce the holding capacity with the polywire. As for the reasons for the suggested modifications to your new proposed setup there are several. The black piping for carry the water will get hot on top of the ground. Contrary to what the experts in magazines state you will not have grass cover over the pipes for shade unless you fence it out. The cattle will eat the grass under the paddock partitions and you want them to. Your herd and your pasture are enlarging which is good. As you enlarge the pasture and the herd some of the hobby methods will need to be abandoned. Along with that expansion will be an additional demand for scattering cow patties and a better utilization of the forage. Having a single lane will let you better optimize the expanded areage, it will let you water the cattle from a single source and your paddock layout will let you be more efficient with all tasks such as bush hogging, fertilizing, liming, and you will have less area for weeds to get established. Realize I am not taking my time to make these suggestions just to get you to do more work. Quiet contrary, I am trying to make your operation more profitable and enjoyable. You can avoid the gates as they are totally unnecessary and if members of the family need convincing ask them to come here and ask their questions and I will answer them to better establish credibility. If you can teach a dog to come when you have food then the same level of skill exists to train cattle to walk under a fence. I have had a number of visitors to the farm and you folks are the first to ever bring the subject up regarding any difficulty associated with this, IMO, simple movement method of the herd. You do need to dwell on what you are undertaking and get a grasp on the whole project. If you do nothing else that I suggest put the waterer and the lane in the location I suggested. I am somewhat like a cow chain, I have been through this crap before, often dragged! At least you have help from the family, every alteration here is done by me alone.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> Just a few questions.
> My feeder calves are sold to go to feed lots most often in cold climates because that is where the grain is located. With the short haired Senepol genetics I would have to find a different group of buyers. Where do you expect the buyers of your breeding stock to sell the offspring these animals produce?
> Is it true that Senepol cattle have problems cycling on predictive schedules?
> I know that Senepol cattle put weight on readily but the buyers for commercial feed lots do not want to buy them where I sell because they say that Senepol cattle will not yield as high as Black Angus. Is this true?
> With the frame size of the Senepols how do you plan to get to frame 3 if you stay within the breed?


Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. I had surgery a week ago (nothing major, just a hernia repair) and it took the wind out of my sails for a bit.

In any case, I contacted a couple of Senepol breeders, and here's what they say. 
1 - regarding feed lots in colder climates, Senepol do ok in the colder weather if they are brought in before it gets cold - they will gro a heavy coat for winter, but it does take time. But their primary market/focus as pure breds is for those wanting to finish on grass, not the grain market. Their other market model as as source of brid viggor/heterosis through cross breeding.
2 - They said they had not heard of any problems with regular cycling. They are a BosTaurus BosIndicus cross though. The purebred BosIndicus is slower maturing than British breeds, but very fertile once mature. Senepol is somewhere in the middle. I imagine that while British breeds might be putting a calf on the ground at 18 months, the Senepol is going to be at 24 months.
3 - yield and grade was pretty comparable to Black agnus according to the study cited one page 2 here: http://www.senepolcattle.com/files/English Version.pdf
4 - As with most breeds, Senepol have been bred increasingly for size. They range from 4-6. With a little work, a frame 4 bull could be found pretty easily, but it would take time sellect down to frame size 3.

All of this was in relation to purebred Senepol. My plan was to raise purebred Red angus - to cross to Senepol in the first generation to get the slick coat, and then to breed back to purebred Red Angus status. But, as it turns out there may be a problem with that too. From a commercial standpoint - i.e. raising for meat, the 1B (less than 100%) is fine, but there is no demand for the Bulls for breeding purposes, since only 1A can produce 1A offspring...

I will have to keep thinking about this. Also, in my studies, I came accross another breed. Do you know anything about Beefmasters? They were developed in the sout west, I believe. They were developed from hereford, shorthorn and brahman, and supposedly do very well in the heat. But I have been told that there is a bias against the "having ear" (ie anti brahman blood) in the south. What do you think?


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## agmantoo

It just so happens that I do know something about Beefmasters. My neighbor had them for a rather long time. He was committed and since he was not a baker the family could not eat all the mistakes. His extended venture was not one of pleasant learning experiences but he was reluctant to cut his losses and change breeds. His problems were the known ones of taking a reduced price due to the Brahman influence. Additionally he had to spend a lot of time while the cattle were birthing due to complications. Cycling was somewhat as we discussed earlier, late with the calves arriving nearer the cows 30th month of the cows age. My cattle calf near their 24th month. The Beefmasters are not suitable for rotational grazing on the forage we have. Supplying 3% of their body weight in forage takes more land per head than I would want to provide. Truthfully, I am not trying to have it "my way" but I have difficulty understanding as to why others try to "blaze a new trail" as they are starting out. I see people here almost daily trying to breed this to that in order to get a revolutionary new cross that will milk like a dairy animal and render tender tasty meat on scrub feed while being the house pet. If such an animal exists it would have evolved long ago as this effort is centuries old. I am not against venturing out. I am just against doing it on a large scale. Get established and experienced by taking the proven path, then slowly try whatever breed you desire. By doing so you will have something to compare the new undertaking with. If you were in the meat business and had ornament pasture cattle and converted to a lesser known but marginal beef breed you might think the results are terrific. That is if you had not owned some of the top producing beef breeds. You need to establish a proper yardstick to measure the results against. If those results of your crossing efforts are overwhelming then move in that direction with ease as you will be able to market the existing old herd readily and hopefully at a substantial profit as they will be what the market wants.


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## ArmyDoc

Thanks Agmantoo,

Interesting that your friend had trouble at calving time. The fellow who suggested beefmasters to me touted their calving ease as one of their selling points. 

Your comment on starting with an established breed is much the conclusion that I am coming to. Cattletoday.com lists the breed registry numbers for various herds - The top five purebred breeds by number of registered animals are:

Black Angus - 170,000
Hereford - 110,000
Limousin - 49,000
Red Angus - 42,000
Gelbvieh - 32,000


the next three are:

Charolais - 45,000 - misleading total because it includes Char-bray (charolais-brahman cross)
Simmental - 44,000 - misleading total because it includes sim-brah (simmental-brahman cross)
beefmaster - 40,000 - a composite breed.



I wonder if you could comment on any of these other major breeds. Also, I am under the impression that Red Angus has the same basic performance as Black Angus, but happens to have a red coat. Do you agree with this?


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## agmantoo

My experiences are inadequate to reach a meaningful conclusion. Here are my awarenesses regarding some of the breeds listed.

Gelbveih nice muscled aminals but have birthing problems. If it were not for the birthing problems I would have already crossed my herd to a Gelbveih bull.

Simmental, can be very nervous animal and hard to keep fenced/contained. Discounted due to "ear"

Hereford, pink eye and cancer eye problems. Perceived slaughter loss due to "big boned"

Red Angus, I know very little about them but the Black Angus group does not consider it to be the same animal as the blacks. 

Charolais, slow to cycle and need to be supplemented when on grass alone

Santa Gertrudis ....Crazy animal, flighty and unpredictable 

Murray Grey I have only seen one registered one and I own him. I have a few part breeds and they are the best animals in my herd. True easy keepers and maintain condition off grass alone. Supposedly the best marbling animal off grass and it a major player in the grass produced beef in Australia and N Z.

Angus, the markets favorite breed. The Angus people have done a good job selling the public on the advantages, real or perceived, of Angus meat. The best of breeds for rotational grazing and the largest market for the type of business ArmyDoc is considering.


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## Mark T

Agamantoo suggested I repost this away from the general homesteading forum, so here goes.

I just got offered sixty acres of beautiful, flat pastureland on a long term lease with minimal rent.

I have a week to decide if I want to take it on.

Here's the problem:

It has no fence and both the landowner and I want to avoid using the streams as watering sources (erosion and parasite control). The landowner does not want to do hay and I'm already tapped out on the amount of hay I can handle each year, so if I take it I have to graze it.

I'd have to build fence AND find a way to water the animals, but have no capital to expend and, with Sally staying home with the kids, won't be able to qualify for a loan.

I figure that if I use steel posts every ten feet and three electric wires for perimeter fence, the fencing would run about $3500. I could do interior subdivisions much more cheaply - the land is flat and I could probably get away with single wire with mostly fifty foot centers for the posts.

About 1800' of the perimeter fence would be to keep the cows out of the boundary stream - I understand that there is some county help for fencing out waterways, but don't know who to contact. What is the timeframe and cost share percentage?

Water is a bit trickier. The house is on one corner of the property, so running a hose 2000 feet to the far subdivided paddocks is out of the question - I can get away with that on my square nine acres and five cows, but it would be a nightmare to try to water 20 head that way - and have to move the watering system every couple of days as well.

If I could get a source of water close to the center, I'd probably follow Joel Salatin's system of laying black water pipe down the center and then using quick connects and automatic valves for portable troughs. I've never priced any system like this - what would the costs be?

There is a waterline running through the property and the landowner has the right to use 5 g/min of potable water or 20 g/min greywater. I'm not sure how to tap into that or how much it would cost. Another option would be a well, but I know that cost would be very high. If I am short on water because I'm saving the streams, is there a cost share program to either tap the waterline or put in a well?

This seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity, but financially it is coming at the wrong time. If I was able to get over the hump, I'm confident I could sell 20 grassfed calves each year direct to customers - I have been selling 8 per year without doing much marketing besides word of mouth. I'd have to grow to that level - I have five cows and two heifers right now, but I could probably "borrow" some grazers from another farmer in order to get the mob effect of grazing and start improving the pasture. The other farmer
would get free grass and I wouldn't have to spend the money on buying more animals or have to add mowing each paddock in turn to the chore list.

I don't think I'll be able to say yes, but already think I'll regret it forever if I say no. Thanks in advance for the help and/or ideas I haven't thought of.


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## godsgapeach

Hi, Mark T. Welcome to this thread.

As for the "help" you mentioned, if you are interested, the folks you need to contact are your local USDA or NRCS office. There's a program called EQIP. (You can look it up online). They can help with cross fencing but not perimeter fencing, and they can help with watering to keep the herd out of the creeks. They have a 75% payout this year--BUT I think the deadline for application was the end of Feb. You'd have to check to be sure.

One thing that has been suggested to us, if you do decide to use the streams temporarily, is fencing the cows out except in a set area, and laying a gravel bed. "They" say the cows will only get in, drink, and get out, because they don't like how the gravel feels--rather than get in and hang out and foul the water. That's what we'll be doing until we get to the point of actually laying water lines.

I know that's not the greatest solution, but I wish you the best as you make your decision!


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## ArmyDoc

Mark T said:


> Agamantoo suggested I repost this away from the general homesteading forum, so here goes.
> 
> I just got offered sixty acres of beautiful, flat pastureland on a long term lease with minimal rent.
> 
> I have a week to decide if I want to take it on.
> 
> Here's the problem:
> 
> It has no fence and both the landowner and I want to avoid using the streams as watering sources (erosion and parasite control). The landowner does not want to do hay and I'm already tapped out on the amount of hay I can handle each year, so if I take it I have to graze it.
> 
> I'd have to build fence AND find a way to water the animals, but have no capital to expend and, with Sally staying home with the kids, won't be able to qualify for a loan.
> 
> I figure that if I use steel posts every ten feet and three electric wires for perimeter fence, the fencing would run about $3500. I could do interior subdivisions much more cheaply - the land is flat and I could probably get away with single wire with mostly fifty foot centers for the posts.
> 
> About 1800' of the perimeter fence would be to keep the cows out of the boundary stream - I understand that there is some county help for fencing out waterways, but don't know who to contact. What is the timeframe and cost share percentage?
> 
> Water is a bit trickier. The house is on one corner of the property, so running a hose 2000 feet to the far subdivided paddocks is out of the question - I can get away with that on my square nine acres and five cows, but it would be a nightmare to try to water 20 head that way - and have to move the watering system every couple of days as well.
> 
> If I could get a source of water close to the center, I'd probably follow Joel Salatin's system of laying black water pipe down the center and then using quick connects and automatic valves for portable troughs. I've never priced any system like this - what would the costs be?
> 
> There is a waterline running through the property and the landowner has the right to use 5 g/min of potable water or 20 g/min greywater. I'm not sure how to tap into that or how much it would cost. Another option would be a well, but I know that cost would be very high. If I am short on water because I'm saving the streams, is there a cost share program to either tap the waterline or put in a well?
> 
> This seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity, but financially it is coming at the wrong time. If I was able to get over the hump, I'm confident I could sell 20 grassfed calves each year direct to customers - I have been selling 8 per year without doing much marketing besides word of mouth. I'd have to grow to that level - I have five cows and two heifers right now, but I could probably "borrow" some grazers from another farmer in order to get the mob effect of grazing and start improving the pasture. The other farmer
> would get free grass and I wouldn't have to spend the money on buying more animals or have to add mowing each paddock in turn to the chore list.
> 
> I don't think I'll be able to say yes, but already think I'll regret it forever if I say no. Thanks in advance for the help and/or ideas I haven't thought of.


Couple of questions / thoughts.

First off, why do you only have a week? Has he got someone else interested? 

Second, it's his land, any capitol improvements benefit him. Seems to me he should be willing to pay the raw costs for putting up fencing if you are supplying labor. At the very least, perhaps he'd be willing to split them. Looking at it from the out side, he gets fences to improve the value of his land, rent from that land, and someone to manage that land. Pretty good deal - if he doesn't rent it, he has to manage it himself and gets no income from it and no capital improvements. Again, why is he only giving you a week to decide? If it were me, I'd be saying take your time, but bear in mind if someone else comes along offering the same deal, I'm likely to take them up on it.

For fencing along the water way, your county extension agent should know what programs are available and how to apply for them. But it's likely he will have to be the one to apply for it, since he is the owner.

For layout, Agmantoo has probably the most experience. Can you post a picture? That would help us know what we're looking at.

Best of luck,


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc said:


> But it's likely he will have to be the one to apply for it, since he is the owner.


ArmyDoc brought up a great point I forgot to mention. To get the financial help on land that you don't own you'd have to have a power of attorney for it signed by the owner stating that for these purposes (water or fencing or whatever), you can make decisions for the land. Or the owner would have to apply personally.

I think that form is online, too, with the application.


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## agmantoo

If you want to be in the feeder calf business tell the owner you will take the land but on certain conditions.

You must be assured of having the property until you recoup your investment in improvements or a period of X years. You will also want an option to renew the lease. This agreement is to be witnessed and in writing. This a business venture and a business agreement. I have had a property withdrawn after a relative of the landowner saw I was able to make a profit from the land after I improved it.

Once you get the property you need to hustle to get it turning a profit. The cattle market has been good and is so now, it is cyclic and that must be remembered.

You must become a low cost producer as you will be selling into a market where others set the price.

Never mind how others in your area produce feeder calves. Acquaint yourself as to what the buyers in your area want. Supply that, your personal preference has nothing to do with what calves you like. You must be profit motivated in this arrangement. When you hit the lottery you can raise cattle for hobby and then produce the calves you like.

Take someone on as a partner if your finances are too tight to permit the fencing that needs to be done. Ask the landowner if he wants to participate. A decent perimeter fence is a must. Do you have access to a tractor and any implements?

Return to the beginning of this original post and read what has been stated and if you have any questions ask. 

As for water, you must do that on the cheap for now. The source that crosses the land is more than enough to meet your needs. If the land owner can withdraw 5 GPM from the water line then that is the best and probably the cheapest source, make the necessary inquiries. Research tire waterers on the internet. They are permissible and you can get help with them in Virginia.

Where are you going to get the initial cattle? Do you know anyone in the cattle business? The start up money needs to be sourced and assured. Any chance of getting a mentor?


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## Mark T

Armydoc:

The landowner called and asked me to come over and talk about taking over the land. I asked for a week to think it over. I could probably have more time - I'm not sure anyone else is beating down the door. 

I had met her two years ago when I was stopping up and down the road at what looked like overgrown farmland in an attempt to get some extra land for my operation. In my county the ag use tax exemption lets land be taxed at 1% of it's value IF it is in agricultural use. The savings are tremendous - the piece of land I'm being offered is in nine parcels and is worth in excess of 2 million dollars. Having it taxed at a value of $20,000 is a good benefit.

The problem with this system is that no one can afford the land for farming and rentals are problematic - if you start improving the land, there is no guarantee that the owner won't sell it for a subdivision at some point (or their heirs). So few farmers are starting up even though there is a market for organic food in Charlottesville. Older farmers have their own land to take care of and are unwilling to put any money into someone else's land. This land has been hayed sporadically for a decade with no lime or fertilizer (which is good because there would be no problem with organic certification if I wanted to go that route). The land is still fertile, though. The landowner wanted to switch because the guy who was haying it is so unreliable - he didn't do any cutting at all until DECEMBER of the year. I can't imagine the hay was any good at that point. Additionally, if the county finds out that the land hasn't been used agriculturally for any particular year, you have to pay five years back taxes and then wait for five more years to get it back into land use.

I've been doing this for a few years. I own nine acres that I graze with my milk cow and sheep. My knocking on doors found a 37 acre parcel that I have fenced and crossfenced with electric wire and that has worked well - I had one steer last year that kept getting out, but there was an easy solution - I brought him to the home place where I had him behind a woven wire perimeter fence. I've made eight subdivisions, but there is only about two acres of good pasture in each - most of the farm has grown up in cedars after years of neglect. One good point of this property is that there is a 40 x 60 bank barn. The problem is that the road out to the barn has been growing up in forest over the last 20 years. The barn is still structurally sound, but I'd have to cut a three hundred foot road if I wanted to use it. I'm considering it, but am concerned about the time and the lack of permanence to the lease - my annual rent is $0, but the owner could sell for a subdivision at some point and doesn't want a long term lease. I'm a placeholder to keep the taxes low.

I also have two forty acre parcels that I hayed for the first time last year.

The first hay parcel came available through a family at my church. They asked me if I was interested, and I made a deal with a neighbor with equipment - he would cut and bale and I would provide all the labor. We split 1/3,1/3,1/3 - 1/3 for him, 1/3 for me, sell 1/3 to lime the property. I didn't have any equipment at all. Long story short, the neighbor's work ethic was very poor and I couldn't get him out to cut - and when he did, he announced after the hay was cut that he was taking two-thirds. If I didn't like it, he'd leave the hay where it was. Well, I didn't like it, but what choice did I have? I took the third but then spent the winter scouring the pennysaver and putting together a cheap square baling rig. I bought a Ford 2600, a sickle bar, NH baler, and an antique rake (total: $4600) and tackled the job myself. I had several repairs on the sickle bar - turns out I could have bought a new one cheaper. My dad found a guy with the same model for a parts machine, so we should be able to fix it cheaper from now on.

Another woman I know from the community found out I was baling and asked me if I wanted to do her forty acre field as well - she had a guy doing it who was ridiculously rude to everyone (Business hint: Don't greet your landowner with "---- yous." Just sayin'.) and wanted to get somebody else.

I was leery about taking on too much, but it came with a barn I could store hay and my equipment in. I talked with another guy at church who runs about a hundred head of Charlais down the road - he said he would cover me if I couldn't get the work done. This was good, because the yoke of my sickle bar broke as I was doing the second cut. He ended up cutting the whole forty acres and I raked and baled about a quarter of it. He roundbaled the rest. The landowner was in no danger of getting her ag use revoked, the grass didn't stand all winter to mess up my first cut, I got some hay, and he didn't have to buy any hay at all that winter. He's also a nice guy who is willing to give me advice.

I ended up making about 2,000 good bales of hay, which was all I could store, and then sold half of it for $4 or $5 a bale. All my winter hay for my small herd (5 cows, two heifers, a goat, and a dozen sheep - I buy feeder steers to make the total number of animals I've sold each year - it has been eight each year for three years and could have been more). If not for the sickle bar problems, I would have mostly paid off my equipment in a year. I also lost about twenty pounds bucking bales. Perhaps I should supplement the farm income by charging for a fitness program: "Lose twenty pounds in a summer!"

This winter I've had three separate people call to offer me small parcels of hay land and I've turned them down. I've got enough on my plate and moving equipment up and down the road for two acres of hay isn't a good use of my time. (NB: I also work full time as a teacher).

I think the recent offers have to do with:

1) The county, in these tough times, looks like it is going to get serious about enforcing the ag use tax reduction.

2) I'm polite - many folks who are farmers locally don't like the newcomers who have built mansions on the outskirts of Charlottesville and let that be known - even to their landlords.

3) In a small community, people know who takes care of their land. My home thirty-one paddock nine acres is a daily advertisement that I take care of the land. I think several of the landowners have liked that I'm organic too.

I was pretty happy with the way I'd grown over the last few years and didn't plan on getting much bigger, but when the new possibility came along, my jaw dropped. I'm probably going to say no, but man! The land is beautiful, only a mile and a half from home, and the lease would be long term. If it only it had fencing!


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## Mark T

Agman:

I've got calls in to cooperative extension to see if they have some "raise-the-capital" ideas.

I'm a pretty low-cost producer. My main cost initially was milk replacer (I bought calves for $40 bucks, put $90 of milk replacer into them - three months, then grazed them through the year). I don't use any grain at all. Since then, my dairy cow has grown up and she now raises three calves a year (though I might give her only two next year because she got real thin), and I'll have two other nurse cows in the fall. I also have gotten two beef cows who raise one calf each. I could also buy weaned steers, but if I bought them at 300-400 pounds, that would be around $400 apiece.

I graze all year and then take them to the butcher in the late fall. I get $2/lb liveweight for grass-fed, no grain sustainable beef with no antibiotics (I can't officially claim to be organic to the customers because I'm over the $10,000 sales cut-off - under that amount you can say organic without certification. I looked at certification but at a couple thousand dollars, it didn't seem worth it when I was already selling out what I could handle.) I also raise pastured pork, chickens and turkeys (8 pigs, 400 chickens, and 80 turkeys a year). Again, I sell out each year and have to turn people away. If it wouldn't disappoint repeat customers, I probably wouldn't do the pigs this year since I've already cleared all of my woods of the brambles and multi-flora rose. As it is, I think they'll just get a half acre of pasture at a time, run them through four paddocks and then reseed afterwords - pigs are right hard on pasture.

Following advice Joel Salatin gave me at one of his field days, I didn't apply lime for five years, instead trying to improve the pasture plants that grew naturally. I got sheep to organically eat down the broom sage, but they only eat that when they are starving and I don't have the heart to starve an animal. So last year I broke down and spread two acres of lime per acre on the home place.

For fertilizer on the home place, I have the rotating pasture pens of poultry and cow manure. When I do my daily moves at home, I start the hose in the watering tanks, and then have twenty minutes to walk around the just finished pasture to kick the manure around on the field. The animals will hit each 1/6 acre paddock for one day eight times a year with an average thirty day rest. (Shorter in the spring - I move faster and then mow with the push mower and longer in the summer - when the grass isn't back up to 5 inches when the animals reach it, I take Bonnie and her calves over the the rented pasture where I have stockpiled two paddocks. When she goes over to the rental, I have more daily time so I start spreading the composted manure from the previous winter. I'm not sure what the nitrogen application rate is, but my two wheel wheelbarrow will hold about two hundred pounds of compost and I'll hand throw the compost around each 1/6 acre paddock one wheelbarrow load at a time until I've made the complete circuit, and then run through the paddocks again as time permits. I think each paddock got about a thousand pounds of compost last year - that would be a rate of 3 tons/acre. Ideally, I'd like to spread more, but time is a real issue when I'm haying during my summers off. Larger equipment is a possibility, but even then wouldn't speed things up too much because my cheap old tractor does not have a bucket. Even if I bought a manure spreader, I'd have to load it one shovelful at a time. As I've kept Bonnie's heifers and added two more beef cows, I have a crapload of manure (heh. crapload of manure. heh.) so I end up not using it all - I let friends come by and we load their pickup trucks for their garden. I kind of like sharing the compost, so don't want to eliminate that entirely, but I could spread more.

On the rental pasture, I have eight paddocks of about four acres apiece. Each is about half wooded. I don't spread any fertilizer and let the manure fall where it may, so the land isn't improving as rapidly as the home place, which has really come along way from the multi-flora bramble it was when we bought it. I can already see the difference that rotated grazing makes, however. Six paddocks supported eight steers and four cows last year, and then I opened up the other two for the summer slow down and brought over everybody else. I graze each paddock four or five days - moving when it looks like they've made a good job of the grazing. In the Spring they can't keep up, and I don't have equipment there, so there is some underutilizing going on. They tend to eat down the extra stuff in the pasture in the summer, but it's not as good as if it had been eaten when young and tender.

I sell the steers in October and bring the cows home in late December. I brought them home in early December this year because we had a new baby and I didn't want to have to drive down the road and check on them. I figured I had the hay in the barn, so what did it matter if I fed extra. I didn't fully anticipate the winter demand and had to turn away hay customers this month, so that decision cost me some money - if they ate an extra hundred bales because I brought them in, I lost $500 in sales.

I'm considering doing a soil test on the rented pasture and bringing in some lime this year, particularly one one paddock that used to be an alfalfa field. I'm told land in the area needs years of lime before you can get a stand of alfalfa in (we are naturally about a 5 ph), but I play with the idea of trying to put in a two acre field to make tremdously expensive hay - I saw alfalfa bales advertised for $12 for a fifty pound bale last year (I get $4 or $5 for mixed grass delivered in the customer's barn). Then again, I'd hate to spend the money for lime (it was $35/ton spread and delivered last year) and then have the land turn into a subdivision.

As for other expenses, hay used to be an issue but I'm not making my own. I don't overwinter the steers (they are 500 pounds in October and sold as petite beef), and just feed five cows and the sheep hay on the home place.

I also have the expense of wire and posts every year - the deer here are horrible on electric wire during the winter and I have to do a lot of repair in the spring. I've also been working on smaller subdivisions, but think I'm done for now - I've got daily moves at the home place and think eight paddocks at the rental allows adequate rotation and additional paddocks just means more posts and wire that would have to be picked up when the land is sold to a developer.

On the hayland, I haven't spread any lime. I'm upfront with the owners about that, because I just don't have the capital to spend $70/acre times 80. The yield is already more than I can handle, and the landlords just want the ag use. If I needed to jump start production, I could easily double or triple my yields with lime and fertilizer, but then I'd have to get a bigger tractor, a mower-conditioner and a tedder to deal with the thicker production. And I only have storage for 2000 bales (though I could increase that if I cut a road to the rental pasture barn like I mentioned above). Heck, I gave half of the one field away to my friend and lost a few hundred bales to rain (though they ended up being nice mulch for the garden). I don't want any more hay unless I can find a better way to market it out of the field. It seems the horse people are just used to buying forty bales at a time when they need it and don't need it in the summer. I have one customer who has pre-ordered three hundred bales from the first cutting but that is it - the rest just want to call me to deliver forty bale loads during the winter. They are willing to pay for it - I charge $5 per bale delivered, but it does take about two hours to load forty bales, drive to the customer, unload and stack and politely chat about the weather, even if we forget that I had to load, drive, and store the hay so it can be available in January. So the extra $40/load isn't as attractive as it may seem.

I think that answers the requests for additional information at least for now. I look forward to your suggestion for how to handle the potential extra sixty acres.


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## Mark T

Agman asked where I'd get the additional animals to graze the new farm.

That's tough.

I'm struggling to figure out how to pay for fencing. Buying 20 feeders would be about $8000 and that is money I just don't have. I do make a little money farming, but all of that goes to supplement my teacher's salary so my wife can stay home with the kids. Things are tight. They won't be forever, but they are now.

Right now, I buy and pay my way through the year with customer deposits - they put down $200/side in early Spring and then pay the remainder in the fall. This lets me buy the calves and gives me some money to get fencing supplies. I get small cash infusions through the summer as each batch of chickens is sold, but the margins on the chicken are low because of the cost of organic feed and we pay $4/head for butchering. I'd like to save the butchering cost, but that would entail its own capital outlay and my wife, who is a saint, has drawn the line at butchering. She humors me with my farm stuff, but this is my hobby, not hers and she has the right to draw that line in the sand, IMO. The paydays in late fall are nice, but usually most of it goes into the family budget.

Moving to nurse cows has saved a fair amount of money on a per-calf basis - milk replacer is now running $50/bag. Without grain, I feed them for three months, so Bonnie and her daughters save me $150 per calf plus give me a nice AI calf each year. If it is a male, he saves me $40 on purchasing from a dairy. If it is a heifer, I keep her, but eventually I'll be able to sell them back to a dairy or do a heifer calf for six bull calves swap - my AI tech is eager to buy my heifer calves to add to his dairy. I'd eventually like to get to ten cows. That would give me 20 or so butchering animals a year. Of course, I have noticed that the two beef cows I have tend to hold their condition in a zero-grain environment much better than dairy cows raising two or three calves. I'm considering shifting my AI breeding approach to the beef breeds. Or trying to go more dual purpose - the Montbeliard AI calf this year is a glorious looking little heifer. The problem with beef cows is that I'd only get one calf a year and would still have the hay problem.

If I wanted to go to ten or more cows, I'd have to build a bigger barn for storing hay and feeding facilities. Right now only four cows can access the hay manger at one time, so the low totem cow and the calves have to wait their turns. It seems to work for now, but would become a problem if I had too many more - some cows wouldn't be able to fill their bellies before the alpha animals pushed them aside.

I'm going to google the tire waterers. I was assuming that I'd have to buy float valves and new rubbermaid watering troughs, but perhaps those would be cheaper.


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## agmantoo

Mark T
Do not let me offend you but my bedside manner is more than somewhat lacking but if I tell you something you can bank on the fact that I think I am right. From what I had read with your posts I feel that you have a strong work ethic and are committed to the ag sideline. On the other hand, I do not think you can see the forest for the trees. You have too many ventures and are entirely too spread out. You need to step back and take a view of what you are doing as an outsider. Make a determination of where you are spending your time. Make a determination of where the profit is being derived. Cut out the projects that are not giving the greatest returns for the least inputs. With the 60 acres I can readily see a $20,000 plus gross selling through the sale barn. Just imagine what you could make selling the animals as natural beef!
I can see a time commitment not to exceed 1 hour per day. I also see that the wife could handle the reduced chores should the need arise. You need to approach the owner of the 60 acres and tell her she needs to buy the fencing and that you will build the fence. Explain to her that she can deduct the fence as an expense on her tax return. Tell her when you get the operation going that you will pay her a fixed but low land payment. Ask her if she would like to partner with you on some animals and give her a decent return until you can carry the expense. Put the fence up ASAP. The weather is good for that now and school will soon be out. Go to the sale barn and buy some poor conditioned animals that had a rough winter. Make friends with a buyer at the sale barn. Ask him if you can feed some cattle for him if the landowner is not interested. Also ask the buyer to select the animals to purchase. If you can muster 25 to 30 head of stressed cows to buy soon you can resale the cull ones in late fall and make a profit and at the same time keep back some potential cows to start a herd. If you manage the 60 acres properly you should not have to feed any hay. I would work to get out of the hay business. You are selling the fertility of the fields a bale at a time and don't realize it. A round bale supposedly has $36 worth of fertilizer in it at todays fertilizer prices. You need to lime every field you control. Stress the need to the owner and get them to buy the lime again as a deductible expense to them and proof to the tax office that they are truly farming. With the price of the fencing and the purchase of a used bush hog you would well be on your way to a winning venture.


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## wstevenl

Mark T,
I agree with alot of what Agmantoo said, including the comment about his bedside manners, lol. One quick suggestion on the poultry front....
I'm a big Salatin fan, and want to do poultry on our farm even if it is only a small part of the business. I think that poultry could be great for you because it can improve the pastures and being a teacher, you have that extra time in the summer to do the work. I would say though, if you can't butcher them yourself, it seems like it would be difficult for you to make a profit. Some friends of mine do 4 batches of 350 each year, and this year their first batch is 600, so I guess their expanding. I think you must give the birds enough pasture to make up a good portion of their diet (hard to do with so many birds), and you must be able to butcher them yourself. $4 a bird seems real steep for someone trying to make a profit. 

Question for Agmantoo:
Is farming your career now? Or a money making hobby? Are you happy making a profit of any kind or do you NEED to make a decent wage from your cows. I only ask because it seems like you could make so much more money having half the cows and raising the steers to finish weight and selling to a buyer for grass fed beef, or direct marketing that beef. If you don't NEED that profit and just want to come out ahead, I can understand your motivation to be low cost and sell at the sale barn, because it means easy marketing. Mark T and I seem to have the same desire to sell direct to consumers and sell at a lower quantity, higher price to make the most profit per animal and per acre.


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## agmantoo

Wstevenl
As you may have noticed the name I sign on with is agman with a too added. My other source of income is also cyclic. By being diversified one may offset the other. Somewhat like the saying "what you loose on the peanuts, you may make off the popcorn". I am satisfied with the profit returned to time spent with cattle venture. I know that I could increase the return by selling direct but I do not want to expend the time doing it nor the inconvenience of dealing with individual buyers. The cattle are in addition to other things that I do to make a living. My ability to make money has always been limited by thinking too small and within the confines of my limited exposure. What I have been promoting is not to think small and not to accept conventional thinking. Notice I did not state conventional wisdom. I am aware that everyone has to start somewhere. All that I am proposing is do not limit yourselves. Where do you think Salatin would be without all his speaking engagements and books? You can emulate his methods but will you have his success? Jim Gerrish charges $800 a day for 4 people to visit his place. He is not a conventional cattle producer nor IMO does he depend on his cattle as a sole income? I do not think so. Would Salatin and Gerrish be where they are by following conventional wisdom? No. So what I am telling you guys is that you need to gather information, learn how to apply what you gather and then do your own thing. Do not waste your time with the hobby approach unless this is your hobby. Mark T has a wonderful opportunity. Yes, I mention he could be grossing in excess of $20,000 plus selling through the sale barn. To me that is worst case. I am just trying to get him to realize he can justify getting the place now. MarkT could be selling twice that or more by marketing natural feed beef. It is up to him to go that route if he wishes. As for Wstevenl, your move to a different breed to get additional beef gain is the correct direction but you seem to me to want to remain in the hobby group with the breed selection. You guys are engrossed in the day to day activities too heavily is the point I am trying to drive home. Where do you think that a good "hands on" carpenter has his mind concentrating when he is building the flooring of a house? He certainly is not thinking on the flooring, instead he is concentrating on the rooms,the walls and roof. I am proposing that in everyones' operation, including mine, they move above the floor.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Having seen Agmantoo's operation personally, I must say it's the most time and resource efficient cattle operation I've ever seen. He handles 100 cows with their calves with almost no $$ inputs and less than 30 min a day. His operation is not the biggest $$ return on a per acre basis, but on a time basis, as he is spread out among other ventures as well and has limited time to devote to his cattle. Literally his operation could be done along side a full time job, moving the cows once a day, and just periodic spells of a couple hours for fencing or working them. The larger the acreage, the more potential with this setup. With a smaller acreage, the higher $$ profits per acre require considerably more time input. It seems that to increase $$ return per acre requires more time, and agman has focused more on limiting labor/time than maximizing return on a per acre basis. What side job do you know of that can return 20-30k+ while only taking 30 min a day? Yes he could increase his $$ figure dramatically by selling direct to consumers, using local butchers, fattening/finishing on site, etc, but all these would require much larger inputs of time which he doesn't have. That's why he tells Mark that 20k is just a starting figure.

On our farm due to limited cleared acreage we have to maximize $$ return per acre that's why we have invested more time per acre to maximize production through several different ventures. Agman has perfected the ability to make $$ with a large amount of acreage with almost no time involved. He's no hobbyist, he probably makes more $$ per acre than anyone I know through conventional farming, because of his methods. 60 acres of pasture would be a nobrainer, and agmans style would make it profitable and highly productive in a very short time. He is carrying about 1 cow to the acre, much more than the average in this area of 2.5 acres per cow. His methods increase pasture productivity, reduce labor through stockpiled winter feeds (he feeds no hay), and increase profits through higher production per acre.

With a large amount of open pasture, agmans methods are the way to go. With a small acreage and limited cleared land you can incorporate his ideas while also maximizing $$ return per acre through producing higher value products marketed directly. Mark I would highly recommend that you visit Agman and see his setup. Without seeing it in person it is hard to grasp the incredible potential that his ideas have. It would be a bit of a drive but highly profitable for you I think. I know it has opened a whole world of different thinking for me.

Mark I would also recommend that you not give away your excess manure or fertility! We haul in 4-5 tons of manure a week in addition to what we produce here on our farm, and I cannot understate the incredible increase in production and carrying capacity that the additional soil improvements have caused. Use every shovelfull you can get to put back on your land. It's worth the time for what it will do for your land.


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## wstevenl

Agmantoo was referring to the fact that we're trying out and expect to get more Belted Galloways. They are coming from a local farmer, not full blood, there is some angus in some, and herefords in some, but they are Belted and black none the less and come from a registered bull. Being grade, they are relatively in expensive. We're considering either buying a Lowline (grade) bull for the heifers next year or visiting another breeder in the area that raises full blooded Galloways. I don't see the downside to getting this breed of cattle. Can someone tell me how using Belted Galloway crosses to raise direct marketed grass fed beef is worse than buying skinny sale barn black cows and keeping the best ones at the end of the year to start your herd with? If nothing else, I figure that the attention that the belted cows will bring, grazing next to the highway, will be worth lots of advertising.  The cows that these heifers came out of look real good, kept their weight on pasture all winter, never have calving troubles, and are midsized with the bull being about 1,800lbs. 

At this point I guess what I have going on is simply a hobby. It takes me an hour or two to do the farm chores everyday but that's only because I love sitting and watching the cows graze, the chickens peck and the hogs be hogs. I didn't make it out the other day and was busy so my wife did all the same chores in 15 mins. while the kids were asleep in the car. lol 
I am very new to all this too. We've only had cows for 14 months and have only sold 2 hogs worth of pork to date. We did make a healthy profit on those two hogs though. 

Believe me, I'm impressed with what Agmantoo is doing, I probably mention his setup, and year round grazing to someone every other day.


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## godsgapeach

Yep, Wstevenl, those belteds get lots of looks. There's a place here with 'em called "Oreo Farms." 

I'd like to get into poultry, but the cows come first. Plus there are issues here in GA with processing--lots of issues. That'll be quite a while down the road. I've got enough to do for now anyway.


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## Mark T

Agmantoo -

Thanks for the advice. Don't worry about ruffling my feathers - I'm thickskinned and can focus on the intention rather than the tone - I wish more people would - we'd all be happier. Plus, the tone didn't seem bad to me at all.

You are right - my operation isn't designed for maximum profitability. I kind of stumbled into the whole farming for sales thing by raising a few things for the family and friends - and then people asked if they could have some too. So I've grown to where I am now.

If I take on the new farm, I'd have to streamline operations. My wife and I were talking about it today and she said she and the kids could handle the poultry side of things so I could concentrate on getting the new farm together.

I called the EQIP program folks and got some really good news. Not only will they pay a huge percentage of the stream exclusion fence, they'll also help pay for the rest of the perimeter (at a lower rate) and even the crossfencing! They'll also pay for a well, water lines, and troughs in each paddock.

Not my only problem is hypocrisy - I am generally against farmer welfare. I've not used it in the past, but then I was small scale. I could potentially get several thousand dollars of government aid. I can tell myself it is "good" welfare because it supports environmentally sound farming, but it is a government handout nonetheless. But...

They recommended twenty cow-calf pairs for the farm, but I'm thinking I'll just build (using AI) from my five cow and two heifer herd and buy stocker calves. I'll see if the landowner wants to go partners on the calves and if not may ask my parents if they want to take a flier on it.

Thanks again for the suggestions and please keep them coming.

P.S. - About the Belted Galloways. I have one cow who, like the rest of my herd, is pretty tame - they know the guy who gives them fresh grass everyday. She'll let me scratch her ears but doesn't coming looking for it like the rest of my girls. So, generally, a pretty calm girl. BUT - when I move them (twice a year) via a trailer between farms, she is a real wild child. She does not want to get in the trailer and becomes crazy. The rest of the girls placidly walk in and wait for me to shut the door. I've got to catch her up in cattle panels and then use a sheet of plywood to shove her into the trailer - If I used anything else she'd kick me to pieces. Luckily, she's dumb, so I'm able to get her into the cattle panel enclosure prior to driving in with the trailer. But if the trailer is in the field before she is caught, I can't get her. It's not a deal-breaker management issue, but it is kind of a pain to have to move the cows in two groups - her and all the rest. She does raise a nice calf and the customers like the meat. I'm not sure if her behavior is typical of all belteds or if she is just an onery exception. Your mileage may vary.


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## godsgapeach

I'm with you, Mark T. I don't mind Agman's "bedside manner" as he calls it. I'd far rather somebody shoot straight with me--even if it's not exactly what I wanted to hear. I appreciate that Agman's speaking from his experience and giving us the benefit of what he's learned. His intentions certainly can't be questioned!


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## agmantoo

Back to the challenge at hand!
Recently we discussed the placement and the manner that we would deliver water to the cattle. As the herd increases so does the difficulty in providing water. Placing water lines above ground is the easy way out and also provides sellers of such equipment an opportunity to pull in buyers. IMO, the quality of water delivered to the cattle is most important. Water is more important than feed. I would not want to provide water that was so hot that the cattle cannot consume as much as they want and as quickly as they desire to consume it. Have you every tried to get a quick drink from a garden hose in the Summer? Need I say more. Those that market such above ground supplies state that the forage under the fence will provide adequate shade to keep the water acceptable. I took this pic this afternoon. Where do you see a place under the fence that would give the supply lines of a water source shade?


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## Karin L

agmantoo said:


> My experiences are inadequate to reach a meaningful conclusion. Here are my awarenesses regarding some of the breeds listed.
> 
> Gelbveih nice muscled aminals but have birthing problems. If it were not for the birthing problems I would have already crossed my herd to a Gelbveih bull.
> 
> *I've heard otherwise, and know a few producers that will argue against this. From what I know, Gelbviehs are calm animals, with good mothering ability and calving ease and raise a growthy calf.*
> 
> Simmental, can be very nervous animal and hard to keep fenced/contained. Discounted due to "ear"
> 
> *Simmental are not supposed to be nervous; traditionally they're used as a dual purpose breed, for beef and milk and (I think) draft as well. The simmental (pure, more modern types) that I've been around weren't all that nervous nor hard to keep in the pasture...not nearly as bad as Charolais. Though I could be wrong about the fence-crawling part...*
> 
> Hereford, pink eye and cancer eye problems. Perceived slaughter loss due to "big boned"
> 
> *Breeding and genetics have been developed to reduce this problem; breeders that I know have been working on developing pigment around the eyes to prevent pink eye and cancer eye. The same goes for prolapses and sunburnt udders. I don't know about the big boned part, although I do know that Herefords don't have that degree of finish like Angus or Shorthorn do. There's Herefords with the speckle-face that I've heard have better maternal qualities than Herefords that are all-white-faced. Herefords are also known to be the calmest breed around; the best for newbies new to the cow-calf swing of things.*
> 
> Red Angus, I know very little about them but the Black Angus group does not consider it to be the same animal as the blacks.
> 
> *Yep, Red Angus are pretty much what Angus are except they're not black. Since they have the recessive gene for red, if a homozygous black Angus bull was crossed with RA cows there'd be a whole pile of black calves hitting the ground. Same if a RA bull was crossed with a herd of Angus cows. I've heard some folks say that Red Angus have a bit better temperment than Angus cows, and I believe it from the number of pets I've made from RA steers versus Angus ones.*
> 
> Charolais, slow to cycle and need to be supplemented when on grass alone
> 
> *This is the breed that is quite high-strung breed, no matter what some Char breeds say. Reason for this was historically they were used as a draft animal and more attention was put on the muscle power of these animals and not on other traits like docility, milking ability, calving ease, etc. Late maturing like the Simmental, with poorer milk ability than the Hereford. Also a pain in the grits to calve out... This is primarily a terminal breed, and should only be used as thus, IMHO. You bet, they are a harder-keeping breed, they have to be pampered up with grain to "look good" in comparison with Herefords or Angus or Shorthorns.*
> 
> Santa Gertrudis ....Crazy animal, flighty and unpredictable
> 
> *Don't know about this breed, but any breed with Brahman influence tend to be a bit nutty. Especially Brangus, from what I've heard.*
> 
> Murray Grey I have only seen one registered one and I own him. I have a few part breeds and they are the best animals in my herd. True easy keepers and maintain condition off grass alone. Supposedly the best marbling animal off grass and it a major player in the grass produced beef in Australia and N Z.
> 
> Angus, the markets favorite breed. The Angus people have done a good job selling the public on the advantages, real or perceived, of Angus meat. The best of breeds for rotational grazing and the largest market for the type of business ArmyDoc is considering.


Its unfortunate though that there's a number of breeds following the black trend and not keeping with the traditional colourations. No offence to you Agman but I don't really care for the black influence. There's just too much of it, too many breeders following this trend and selling marginal, inferior bulls to other misinformed breeders who are also influenced by black-hided cattle.

I didn't mean to turn this thread into a black-hide-bashing thread, but those are just my opinions. A lot of people up where I live are not going into the black influence; primary breeds include Hereford, Shorthorns, CharolaisX, SimmentalX, and Red Angus. Occaisonally there's a few pure Angus cows around, but they're kinda few and far between.


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## Karin L

Anyway, I can't believe I read through this entire thread tonight...I've learned a lot, and have really got an insight into what you do, agman, to make your cattle operation work. I've noticed several things though that I want to adress later on this afternoon (since it's real early in the morning now), due to the fact that where I am is different from where you are in North Carolina (hope I'm correct on this), Agmantoo, and GodsGaPeach in Georgia.  

I have to go to bed now, but I'll give you an idea of what I mean: length of grazing season versus winter; grass species; winter temps; land base I have to work with (~320 acres); areas of wildlife habitat that I'm wanting to improve on (i.e. fence off and let grow) which are wet meadows or swamps; cropland that I want to turn into pasture/hayland; question about length of calving season; the list goes on.

I seem to be the only Canadian that is also very interested in your methods Agman and would like to implement them into my future farming practices as well in order to be a low-cost cattle producer/grass farmer. Because of that I hope I won't prove to be intimidating or overwhelming with the types of things to deal with in order to make an HILF system very similar to yours work in my location/climate.

GodsGaPeach, I hope you won't mind the Canuckian intrusion on your thread...if it's necessary I'll PM agmantoo instead or start a different thread on this, if you think that I'll be hijacking this thread...


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## agmantoo

Karin L 
The Certified Angus Beef, CAB, has done a thorough job of convincing the consumer that there is an advantage in the meat. This demand will generate a $50 to $60 premium per feeder calf at market time for my farm. In a good year this is $4000 plus of "found" money". I have stated previously that on a level playing field that I personally prefer the color of the shorthorn breed. I am beginning to like the Murray Grey somewhat silver color as I am getting more calves recently from the bull that I raised from the crossed cow. I will not debate breeds as I am unqualified. However, if you are going to go to a grass based rotational grazing production it in itself will mandate the type animal you own. The animals that will excel off the grass based method will not be available in certain breeds but you should be able to get the color of your preference. I do know for fact you need a small framed cow weighing in around 1050 lbs, actually it is essential to have the cows to be in the frame 3 size and not to exceed frame 4. The cow needs to be only a modest milk producer. She has to be able to maintain her condition off whatever forage your farm produces best over a long time period, adequately feed her calf and return to breeding condition within 2 months of birthing. You may need to start churning this description of the females to make up your herd and see what breeds could fall within the restrictions. Be it red or black it will be a breed that is angus based somewhere in its background.


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## godsgapeach

The Pharo videos are available if anybody is interested.

http://www.superiorlivestock.com/videocatalog/lotlist.sla?cid=332

Agman, I definitely have a favorite from the video but it's not the favorite on paper...


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## godsgapeach

KarinL, no pms necessary. I've learned much from the discussions of others whether agreeing or dissenting. It helps clarify what I believe will work for me! So have at it.


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## Karin L

Thanks Godsgapeach.

Agman, I guess the breed which I would like to start on are Shorthorns or Herefords because they, like the Angus, have a smaller body frame size and are early maturing. I know I can get the solid colour Shorthorns, and they are easy to come by because I have a neighbor that is just down the road that owns and breeds as well as shows Shorthorns; same with Herefords. Trouble is is that I don't know if these breeds are primarily raised on grass or they are supplemented with grain as well as grass. That is what I have to check out in the future. But don't get me wrong, I do like the Angus breed, and I am kinda partial to the Reds so I don't entirely dislike the Angus/Red Angus breed in itself. 

Now here's the situation: My folks own 2 quarter sections (~320 acres). One quarter section has been used primarily for cattle production, in the form of a backgrounding/stocker operation, and the other for hay and crop production. Right now they are being rented out for a few years by a neighboring dairy fella that lives not far from us since the passing of my DF. But let's not focus on that. The first quarter section has about 100 acres or more set aside for grazing cattle on; about 10-15 acres of that consists of corrals and handling facility for wintering/handling stocker steers; the rest is pasture. The average size of the stocker herd we had was 85 head of mixed breed stockers, ranging from Charolais to Angus and everything else in between except for Brahman influenced cattle and the more rarer breeds like Speckle Park and South Devon, to name a couple. The other 60 acres, minus another ten set aside for the acreage and area for machinery and grain storage, were used in hay and silage. Twenty acres were put into hay (alfalfa/brome/timothy mix) and approximately 30 into silage production in the form of barley. The second quarter had ~80 acres put into pasture, but 20 was plowed under about 5 years ago because of lack of productivity and used for barley cash crop. Minus ~5 acres (?) set aside for an acreage that some great neighbors own, the rest of the quarter was and still is used for cash crop production, which is about 100 acres.

The second quarter is not fenced off, but the first quarter is, except for some areas which need to be planned out. The pastures on the home quarter (i.e. first quarter) consists of timothy, brome, fescue, orchardgrass, KY bluegrass, volunteer clover (white dutch clover), a few stands of volunteer alfalfa, quackgrass, reed canary grass in the low spots, and crested wheatgrass which come up in the real hot dry spells. I know the timothy and orchard grass have a short life span so when the pasture "looses its productivity" as my dad used to say, brome takes over, which he mistakenly claimed was quackgrass. Now we have very very few stands of thistle, to the point where it is quite rare to see any at all, and we have worked in the past to get rid of these Canada and Russian thistle stands no matter where they pop up. Other weeds are also not all that common around the pastures as we like to see grass growing, not weeds. The steers do graze together on either pastures--one that is 50 acres the other is 70--and they have free range to the whole pasture during the time they are allowed access. In other words we do practice rotational grazing just in a larger and longer sense. Typically we rotate every few weeks, and depending on the growing season both pastures get grazed twice every season and the height of the grasses. Dad always rotated them before the grass got to 2-3 inches in height, though some spots where undergrazed and others overgrazed in either pasture.

Some steers were kept back to eat the few acres that were in pasture, usually about a dozen or less, depending on pasture needs and whether we had a bull/stag or two (in one case three) that needed to be kept back. In the working corrals were the steers were feedlotted over the winter on hay and silage, there's a nice size swamp that stretches for over 10 acres (~4 in the corrals) that has proven to be a real pain in the grits come spring time. Historically it used to be a wet meadow before the cattle were allowed access on part of it during the wet periods churning it into mud and killing out the grass and other native plant species that depended on the productivity of the wet meadow or swamp. The other areas of corrals are high and dry and grassy in most places. These wet meadows are places that I want to fence off to bring back their natural diversity without the intrusion of the cattle and encourage wildlife habitat. The swamp in the corral is also going to be fenced off and seeded with the grasses native and adapted to wet areas: reed canary grass. I will only let the cattle on these areas for a short period of time, typically during the dry spells as the wetter seasons will only damage the vegetation. There are three swamp areas on the home quarter, and, if I'm correct, two on the second quarter. These areas are not all that small either. When I give you a sketch of the land area, you'll see what I mean.

So what I want to do is to put all two quarter sections into pasture, including the crop land on the second quarter. Fencing and some sort of pasture plan has to be thought out and put into the second quarter, as well as a plan for installing water access. The same, except for most of the fencing, has to be done for the home quarter. The steers had to travel a half mile for water, and even though we had a pond on the pasture it would get full of mud and excrement from the cattle that it wasn't great for watering purposes. So since all of the home quarter is supposedly turned into pasture/hay land, I need to figure out some way to either drill a well or install something like Westevenl did for his pastures.

Now a winter grazing plan, that's something else to consider. Alberta folk have been trying out bale grazing and stockpiling during times when the grasses are dormant and there's no snow (or only a foot of snow) on the ground, as well as another method called swath grazing. For me I like the bale grazing and stockpiling, because the swath grazing involves having to sow in a crop of winter wheat, oats or barley and have it cut for the cattle; we have a lot of deer around so swath grazing will probably be more for the deer's sake than for a herd of dry cows.

I'm questioning the use of calving year round because of the necessary capital needed to calve cows out in the winter. It gets cold here (lowest is -40 F/-40 C, and it can go below that as well with wind chills), so having a calf born in the middle of a nasty, blizzardy cold snap is not worth the risk. We also get snow that can pile as high as 6 feet deep in some places; out on open areas it can get to 4 feet....great for cross-country skiing and snowshoeing, but not for cattle or newborn calves. I like the idea of calving in May/June, since that is the time when grass is already gaining its quality and nutritional status and necessary for lactating cows, plus its warm when the calves come into the world. At first, I will not get heifers but 3-in-1 cows with experience calving (about 3 or 5) and AI seems to be the only option I have to breed my future cows with. Until I get a sizable herd, building it up with the best daughters from the cows that do the best on grass (like your cows, agman), as well as probably purchasing some females from outside the herd to add to it all, will I add some bull power. I am also thinking of buying stockers along with the cows to make use of the pastures, although, depending on how much the pastures need recouperating from the use of the renters, I might reconsider that...thoughts?

A direct marketing program might be something to think about, with raising the calves up to slaughter weight and have them locally slaughtered and the meat sold to folks around town. I think there isn't anything around where I live for grass-fed beef, so I could be tapping into a niche market there. However with the stockers plus the few foundation cows it'll be selling through the auction mart until I can get something going, something figured out. I know with the salebarn I should visit there a few times to see which cattle are going through the highest and which aren't.

That's about all, in a "nutshell". Any questions? Agman you probably want to see the layout of the quarters, don't you? I only have the home quarter drawn out, still have to work on the second quarter. The one sketch is of what the farm looks like now and before the renters took over; another one is the home quarter that I plan on having planned out for pasture fences, though I'm still working on how to put the facilities in. Speaking of facilities, since the second quarter is right across the road from the home quarter where the cattle would have to cross the road into the second quarter from the home quarter, do you think I should install another handling area for the second quarter? Or is it not worth the effort?

Thanks for the help in advance.


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## agmantoo

KarinL
Your project size and my lack of familiarity with your area make your project difficult to address. I only want to address what I am experienced with doing. As for the cattle. It is mandatory that you use the frame size 3 and maybe some 4's. I know no one that use hereford and the herefords that are raised here are far about the 1050 lb weight range. Red Angus will fill the bill if that is what you want to run with. You are far more capable of evolving into what you are wanting to accomplish than I am with the limited experience with the cold climate. You will need to calve with the season. When do the deer drop their fawns? That is the time you want your cows to match with their calving. I am aware that producers are able to do rotational grazing in Iowa for all but 6 weeks of the year. In Idaho they are able to go for 10 months. You should be able to take the most prominent grass forage and the most adaptable clover and maximize the duration of rotational grazing. In your comment about rotating the pastures every 6 weeks or so that is not rotational grazing. That is just switching pastures. You must take the animals off once they have grazed the best forage in the pasture off to 3 inches in height. If you do not, the best forage will be eaten to the point of suppression or destruction. Failure to do so is the first step to creating a weed infested pasture. Have you given consideration into phasing the transistion of renter to owner by your taking over half the property and perfecting what you want to do then ultimately dropping the renter? In so doing you would have cash flow and the flexibility to continue refining your portion. I like to back into any venture that I undertake. First I address what I want to accomplish. I determine the time I have and return I anticipate. I address the funds available to accomplish the task. I then question if this is achievable. If I can conclude that it will work then I move forward. No one but you understands what you want to accomplish. No one but yourself understands your risk tolerance and how much of a commitment you are willing to make to ascertain the undertaking will be successful. Put a plan together. One for 1 year, 3 years and 5 years out. If this is where you want to be, go for it. If the plan will not allow you to achieve your ambition, then start over.

Back to the rotational grazing. I can and will assist you with a layout. I can make suggestions of a watering system but you will have to address coping with the cold. I can advise on moving the animals and on the animals themselves. I think I know how to fence to maximize its use. 
I am curious, during decent weather what is the carrying capacity (cow w/calf to acre ratio) of the pasture land you have?


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## Karin L

agmantoo said:


> KarinL
> Your project size and my lack of familiarity with your area make your project difficult to address. I only want to address what I am experienced with doing. As for the cattle. It is mandatory that you use the frame size 3 and maybe some 4's. I know no one that use hereford and the herefords that are raised here are far about the 1050 lb weight range. Red Angus will fill the bill if that is what you want to run with.


So frame 4 you mean around 1100 lbs? I know I remember reading in one of my beef books something about matching cow size to forage availability...in this case there are a fair number of frame 5/frame 6 cows because the land is able to produce lots of grass as well as crops for beef production. I don't like the big cows though...frame 3 or 4 sounds reasonable. The breeds I'm still debating though...



agmantoo said:


> You are far more capable of evolving into what you are wanting to accomplish than I am with the limited experience with the cold climate. You will need to calve with the season. When do the deer drop their fawns? That is the time you want your cows to match with their calving.


That's what I thought...about both wintering cattle and calving time. The deer usually have they're fawns around May/June, typically the end of May. Beginning of June, the start of haying time--taking off the first cutting--we always have to watch for a fawn hidden in the grasses when the forage is getting cut. 



agmantoo said:


> I am aware that producers are able to do rotational grazing in Iowa for all but 6 weeks of the year. In Idaho they are able to go for 10 months. You should be able to take the most prominent grass forage and the most adaptable clover and maximize the duration of rotational grazing.


With the steers we had them start grazing at the beginning of May and finished around the middle of September. By the beginning of May the grasses were already over 12 inches tall, well into the time to have them grazed. Some grazing books I've read said to start grazing when the forage was 8-10 inches, and graze quickly because of the fast growth between May and July. 

I've heard some folks that do the extended grazing practices still graze their cattle into November. Of course that depends when the snows come and the forage availability. With native grasses the cattle aren't allowed to graze to no more than 5 inches; with tame like we have in our pastures its I think a little less but I'll have to check that again.

I know with species of grasses and legumes soil pH and fertility also say a lot in what forage should go in and what shouldn't, as well as the management practices planned for a particular area. There's differences between sod-forming grasses and bunchgrasses, and from what I've learned bunchgrasses are more adapt for grazing than sod-forming grasses...sod-type would be like timothy, smooth brome, orchard grass, and bunchgrasses are those like meadowbrome, KBG, and some fescue...the steers we had seemed to love grazing in the meadowbrome areas, more than the orchardgrass/timothy/brome mix. 



agmantoo said:


> In your comment about rotating the pastures every 6 weeks or so that is not rotational grazing. That is just switching pastures. You must take the animals off once they have grazed the best forage in the pasture off to 3 inches in height. If you do not, the best forage will be eaten to the point of suppression or destruction. Failure to do so is the first step to creating a weed infested pasture.


It was more like 3 weeks in rotation...but yes you are right it is more like switching pastures. As for the other part of your comment here, removing the cattle after they grazed the best forages to 3 inches makes sense because of the root mass damage this would cause everytime the best forage species tries to come up and the cattle just keep coming back and clipping it off if they are not properly fenced off to prevent that. We had that happen a long time ago, and a whole pile of dandelions took over...didn't know any other way except plow the pasture under and reseed it again. One part of the pasture that had to be plowed was in brome, the other infested with dandelion. 



agmantoo said:


> Have you given consideration into phasing the transistion of renter to owner by your taking over half the property and perfecting what you want to do then ultimately dropping the renter? In so doing you would have cash flow and the flexibility to continue refining your portion. I like to back into any venture that I undertake. First I address what I want to accomplish. I determine the time I have and return I anticipate. I address the funds available to accomplish the task. I then question if this is achievable. If I can conclude that it will work then I move forward. No one but you understands what you want to accomplish. No one but yourself understands your risk tolerance and how much of a commitment you are willing to make to ascertain the undertaking will be successful. Put a plan together. One for 1 year, 3 years and 5 years out. If this is where you want to be, go for it. If the plan will not allow you to achieve your ambition, then start over.


No I haven't thought of this yet. Since the first year of renting had passed, and its one for about a five year term, I guess I still have time to plan and run things by my folks. But thanks, it's something to consider, how it will work is going to take a bit of discussion with Mom. Since I'm still in school away from the farm this is still being worked out on paper; cash flow is only when I have the summers free to work a summer job at the vet's...of course with school debt to pay off that evey U student gets with his/her edumacation. But I do see where you are going...starting up with a few cows don't take much land, at least in terms of raising them on a quarter section.  And I've already got a bit of a plan going, though it gets pushed aside with school and other things, and because I always have these "what if's" in the back of my head no matter how confident I am that a particular plan will work (or not). 



agmantoo said:


> Back to the rotational grazing. I can and will assist you with a layout. I can make suggestions of a watering system but you will have to address coping with the cold. I can advise on moving the animals and on the animals themselves. I think I know how to fence to maximize its use.
> I am curious, during decent weather what is the carrying capacity (cow w/calf to acre ratio) of the pasture land you have?


Alright...I will put in both sketches just to give you an idea of the land base I'm working with, and what I have put together as a rough initial plan. I'm having trouble myself determining where some of the best water sources should be, though if someone from the northern regions can give me tips on how to do go about determining this that'd be great. The water that the cattle had access to is in the south-east corner of the home quarter. That's a fair bit of walking when cattle are travelling from the northwest corner to there.

Carrying capacity (a.k.a stocking rate) for the pasture? On average, its about 0.6 AUMs/acre (fair grazing conditions). Excelllent pastures give us 1.25 AUMs/acre; Good grazing conditions give 0.8 AUM/acre. Annual precipitation around here (Boreal Transition zone) is usually 400-450 mm per year, if that helps any. 

So that could calculate out to ~15 AUMs on say 140 acres of pasture grazed for 165 days (5.5 months), in a fair (which is probably decent in your terms) growing season. On 295 acres thats 32 AUM. If I was jumping the gun and basing the carrying capacity on an excellent growing season, my stocking rate is 32 AUMs on 140 acres of pasture, or 36 on 160. So basically that means that 1 cow-calf pair gets 4 acres in an excellnt grazing season; and even more so during poorer times. 

Sorry for the long reply...


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## Karin L

So here is the layout of the farm before changes I want to take place:









The shaded areas are the wet meadows I was talking about...these are the riparian areas I'm thinking of fencing off. The little squiggly line is the historic remains of a creek that once flowed thru here a long long time ago...it still flows if we get a real heavy rain. The circular structure on the north part of the home quarter is a pond. So the home quarter is the north quarter and the second quarter is the south one. The lines dictate the different fields: the hay field is the rectangle in the middle from the neighbor's acreage down to the little bush you can see there (the bush isn't in its exact location; it should be a little more west than where I drew it). The rest of the quarter is cropland. 









This is the homequarter you can try and help me figure out a plan on, Agman. Notice some changes I've decided to make in regards to pasturing and corraling. I don't know if they're great ideas or not, but its a plan. You can barely see the etches on the north riparian area, but that's one I want to fence off; this area includes the pond as well as the swamp you seen in the sketch above this one. The west riparian area has some bush (willows) that always have an abundance of aquatic creatures when the cattle aren't in ripping things up. The southeast riparian area, is the one that is in need of some TLC. I tend to think that the working corrals and acreage were I sleep every night is a bit small, especially on the one with just the home quarter. It's the best that I could come up with from memory and free-hand. The images of this farm on Google Earth are atrocious; can't really see much except the variation in colouration where pasture and cropland should be....can't see it as well as Godsgapeach's farm layout. (LOL that's the trouble with living out in the boonies!  )

Both pictures are in their correct directional coordinates; when I say north I mean north or on the top part of the picture and south for bottom.


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## agmantoo

Karin L
Referring to post #397.
I need to concentrate on your inputs on the AUM/acre. I am totally unaccustomed to dealing with your situation. I am able to rotational graze approximately 100 each 1000 to 1100 pound cows and there calves plus a couple of bulls on 161 acres of fescue and clover for a full year with no hay.

I am fully convinced you could carry more cattle with rotational grazing and I also know that you can extend the grazing season. I just do not know how many more. With your short grazing season and the number of cattle that you can feed from the acreage concerns me. Have you determined how much income that you need to see if the ranch can support the lifestyle you want to live?


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## Karin L

I was surprised by the numbers as well, seeing that we can easily raise an average of 80 to 85 stockers (which translates to ~40 to 42 cow-calf pairs) for a full year on the pastures that they're grazed on and the forage that we take off every summer _in a conventional system_. And that's just on one quarter section!! I mean we had one summer where we had enough grass for 120 steers to graze on! I think the numbers that I calculated above could be wrong (though I took them from a cow-calf manual, and they are how to calculate stocking rate) because I thought that man oh man we could easily graze 15 pairs on the pastures we have right now and still have plenty of forage left! I figure we can double the projected 40 head cowherd with HILF grazing and winter grazing, even possibly stretching it to a 100+ cow herd, though that could just end up as wishful thinking. What is the carrying capacity for conventional grazing in your area? Was it something like 2 AUM/acre? I know you're area is a bit more wetter than what we got up here, and there's no such thing as irrigation up here either. I think it's going to all come down to trial and error, see how much forage is needed for a cowherd on an MIG plan to substantiate on throughout the whole year.

Ranch.   Well, with all the fencing costs plus the costs involved in renovating and redoing the handling facilities and need to install a few water points plus the purchase of the graziers themselves, I'm guessing I'll need about +/- $20,000 to start up. I could be overestimating it (or even underestimating), but I assume its a safe guess for starting a rotational grazing program in this area.

So what do you think about my sketches? Can you interpret them at all or do I need to give you some time on them?


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## agmantoo

I am working on the layout at night. It will take some time as I do not want to rush through it. The planning is not as simple as it appears once put to paper and then viewed. I was somewhat annoyed when a previous person asked for submittal and once I got it together they even failed to return to the site. I realize that will not be the situation with yourself and that is the reason I want to get it a right as I can without seeing your place.


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## ArmyDoc

Karin L said:


> So frame 4 you mean around 1100 lbs? I know I remember reading in one of my beef books something about matching cow size to forage availability...in this case there are a fair number of frame 5/frame 6 cows because the land is able to produce lots of grass as well as crops for beef production. I don't like the big cows though...frame 3 or 4 sounds reasonable. The breeds I'm still debating though...


Frame size is a function of height, not weight, so a tall skinny cow can have same weight as a short fat cow, but the tall skinny cow will typically require more food than the short fat one to maintain their weight. Here's a good paper on frame sizes.

www.thejudgingconnection.com/pdfs/Frame_Score_and_Weight_in_Cattle.pdf 

As a quick summary, frame size is measured at the hip. For mature cows frame 3 is about 48 inches, and increases by 2 inches for every 1 increase in frame size. So frame size 3-4 is 48 to 50 inches at the hip. Bulls are larger and fram 3 is about 52 inches, again increasing by 2 inches for every 1 increase in frame size. So frame 3-4 bulls are about 52-54 inches at the hip. For cows in good condition, frame 3-4 weigh between 1000 and 1100 pounds, while bulls are 16-1700 pounds.

-


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## Karin L

ArmyDoc said:


> Frame size is a function of height, not weight, so a tall skinny cow can have same weight as a short fat cow, but the tall skinny cow will typically require more food than the short fat one to maintain their weight. Here's a good paper on frame sizes.
> 
> www.thejudgingconnection.com/pdfs/Frame_Score_and_Weight_in_Cattle.pdf
> 
> As a quick summary, frame size is measured at the hip. For mature cows frame 3 is about 48 inches, and increases by 2 inches for every 1 increase in frame size. So frame size 3-4 is 48 to 50 inches at the hip. Bulls are larger and fram 3 is about 52 inches, again increasing by 2 inches for every 1 increase in frame size. So frame 3-4 bulls are about 52-54 inches at the hip. For cows in good condition, frame 3-4 weigh between 1000 and 1100 pounds, while bulls are 16-1700 pounds.
> 
> -


Ohh okay thanks Army Doc.  And also a great link as well...that'll really help me detemine what size of cow to purcahse. I know more about the body condition score analysis of an animal than the frame score, I had assumed that frame score was just another term for body condition score. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Karin L

agmantoo said:


> I am working on the layout at night. It will take some time as I do not want to rush through it. The planning is not as simple as it appears once put to paper and then viewed. I was somewhat annoyed when a previous person asked for submittal and once I got it together they even failed to return to the site. I realize that will not be the situation with yourself and that is the reason I want to get it a right as I can without seeing your place.


Okay, no rush. The topography of the farm is somewhat similar to yours, with some flat areas and some gently rolling hills and shallow valleys. I had forgotten to draw in another bush that is just west of the neighbor's place on the second quarter...its only a half acre in size, but the surrounding wet spot makes it a bit bigger, to almost an acre. But don't let that be a concern to you, because there's always a way to work around that. I'm kinda embarrassed to say this but I know the land more on the homequarter than I do on the second quarter.  Riding the tractor with dad sort of gave me an idea of the lay of the land in the second quarter...but that's just it; I never actually got to walk around on it. But that can be worked around as well.

Thank you so much for your time and effort to help me out, I really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to what you come up with!


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## ArmyDoc

Karin L said:


> Ohh okay thanks Army Doc.  And also a great link as well...that'll really help me detemine what size of cow to purcahse. I know more about the body condition score analysis of an animal than the frame score, I had assumed that frame score was just another term for body condition score. Thanks for clearing that up.


My pleasure. :cowboy: I'm just leaning this stuff - nice to be able to answer a question for once instead of asking one! 

Frame size is easy - just a matter of memorizing a starting point, (two numbers) and then adding 2 inches to get to the next size. Body conditioning is much harder, to me at least. If you can tell body condition just by looking at the cow, without looking at the chart, you're doing much better than I am!


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## agmantoo

Karin L

Here is a rough first presentation layout of the 1/4 section. The perimeter of the property should get a permanent fence. The U shaped Lane will function as the permanent paddock fence with and extension on the far ends. Water can been extended to serve the top right corner section if required. One good well at the home site connected to a very large bladder tank should served the house and the cattle. The layout will permit the cattle to get water in most instances without having to travel over 800 ft therefore the cattle should go to water as individuals instead of going as a herd. This will reduce the need for high headcount waterers. Barring difficulties with the terrain this should be very workable and efficient.


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## Karin L

I sorta get where you're going...are the little nicks in the lanes running east to west places to have water access for the animals? Like the bolded areas you have drawn in? And do you see anything that another well might need to be dug?

Since there is a well already established by the house for both the house and cattle, what do you mean by bladder tank?

Another question: how do you see that the cattle will be able to travel no more than 800 ft when you have the water points separated by 880 ft? I'm probably not seeing something that you do...

I know this is just an initial rough layout but I'm just wondering..

Thanks once again.  Btw, I sketched in your U-shaped water points just to keep up with your ideas.


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## agmantoo

"I sorta get where you're going...are the little nicks in the lanes running east to west places to have water access for the animals? Like the bolded areas you have drawn in? And do you see anything that another well might need to be dug?"

The nicks are where the pen I was using was leaking too much ink. Only the 4 areas where I have the asterisks are where water needs to be available. I would suggest suggest using the Ritchie CT2 waterers at each location. With a ground heat tube and possibly a heater they should work as good as anything you can get. Note...the water lines are to be run to one side out of the path of travel in each lane.

"Since there is a well already established by the house for both the house and cattle, what do you mean by bladder tank?"

A bladder tank is a captive air tank and a large one will prevent the well from cycling on and off too frequently as the animals drink.

"Another question: how do you see that the cattle will be able to travel no more than 800 ft when you have the water points separated by 880 ft? I'm probably not seeing something that you do..."

Your eyesight is fine. It is your concentration. Here is my statement,

"The layout will permit the cattle to get water in most instances without having to travel over 800 ft"

Only on the very outskirts of the layout will the animals be beyond the 800' reach of a waterer. "In most instances" the cattle will be far closer because as they leave the vicinity of one waterer they will be approaching another waterer. Note..800 ft maximum travel is the number accepted as the distancenot to exceed for travel to water to get the animals to go alone. As a cattle person you are aware that cattle are creatures of habit. Therefore, they will develop the habit of going alone or in very small groups to access water with the water being convenient. I designed this layout to minimize the amount of materials to be purchased and the lengths of the underground trenching. This water system should not exceed $8500 US using premium materials. This is not something you want to do over and you need it in the right place the first time. I would use 1 1/2 inch ID supply lines. If you want to cross the road with water to the other parcel it will require only a simple extension off the plan here using the north/south line and a comparable layout. Your Winter holding area could be supplied readily from the new north/south lines if you desired. As you can depict, this layout should function for both current and future needs. This is as formal a plan as an experienced person would need to install the system. A bill of materials can be made from this also if you go to a plumbing supply instead of a box store.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Agman, couldn't you move the two water lines farther apart and place a permanent fence in the middle, so that the water is then 660 ft max? In other words, the dimensions written on the left side would be, from the top, 660' to first set of waterers, 660' to permanent division fence, 660' to 2nd set of waters, 660' to road? The permanent fence in the middle will allow you to run paddocks going both N and S from it, using the 2 sets of waterers. It wouldn't take much if any more pipe, but would be more flexible for operations. Just an idea.... Also if you were to T off the north set of water lines to the East and have another waterer nearer the eastern border it would enable better use of the eastern side of the farm. Whatcha think?


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## agmantoo

RosewoodfarmVA

Sure you could move the waterers farther apart and do what you suggested. While that addresses the water access, this really is not a problem IMO. It makes the use of the polywire more difficult and you have more fence to install and to work around. Additionally, since each division is the same it makes things simpler particularly if Karin needed someone else to make the daily movements. Everything as it is now is repetitious. What is needed or done for one paddock will be repeated in the next. Applications of lime, fertilizer, manure are are easier with no obstacles also.
On Karin's sketch I am unclear what is to the East on the northern portion but I think since she has that boxed out that it is part of her now existing feedlot or support area.


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## Karin L

That's a good idea, Rosewood...but since I don't have my sketch book with me I'll have to get back to this thread in a few hours when I get home to see how that works out. Nonetheless, it does make a lot of sense because of the permanent fence that is already there on the first quarter that agman had not included in his sketch on post #406. Plus, with the lay of the land like it is, with one part of the north pasture east of the most northern riparian area I have boxed out is kinda split in half from past pasture renovations. However, I do sort of see what agman says about more fencing material than required, but that's only if the middle fence stays in and doesn't get ripped out...BTW, there is a perimeter permanent fence surrounding the whole home quarter, but not the second quarter.

I'd also have to consider making a T to the eastern-most part of the quarter for about 400', because that is pasture as well (not feedlot area that you assumed to be agmantoo). The main "feedlot" area is south part boxed off with the house you included in the sketch. Now why I boxed the northeastern part of the home quarter is beyond me...

As for the second quarter, I think I will do the same idea that we have for the home quarter, though probably closer to the 880' spread that was drawn out on #406 since there is no defined pasture grid nor any interior existing fences. However I would still consider installing a second well because of the land size, and I'm not sure how the well at the house will hold up with the waterline extended across the road.

Agman on your other post (#408), I kinda wonder if some of the materials you suggest might not be available in Canada, or some of the waterline requirements might be different? I know I know I'd have to look into that...I'm not too sure about the Ritchie C2 waterers you suggested, maybe you could give me some more insight on those? 

Now I'm wondering if Dad already had installed a bladder tank...that I'm not too sure about, especially with the two automatic waterers we have had...more research to come...

I can't thank you all enough! Thanks again.  Both for the input and explanations


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## Karin L

Another question, more of a dumb one than anything: if I choose to sell beef through a direct marketing initiative instead of through the sale barn, what do I do with cull cows? Would they get sent to the salebarn instead? (BTW, what's the oldest cow you've had with your program?  I remember you showing pics of one MGxAngus girl that was 14 yrs old and still growing strong, but I was wondering if you had any girls that were/are older?)

And I guess with determining the size paddocks needed I'd have to do some math perhaps...does 1 acre for a starter herd of 5 cows sound right? Or should it be less? I can't remember the math you did agmantoo to figure out how many acres you needed to switch pastures every 24 hours based on herd #'s and forage abundance...I know I got the worksheet somewhere under my massive pile of papers and books from my years here at the U, but I'd like to hear how you figured that out for your operation.

I feel like there's another question or two I need to ask but I can't think of them right now...


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## agmantoo

KarinL
I consider myself to be crop farmer. At this time the crops are grasses and clovers. I was at one time in the pork business so I have animal production experience. The 14 year old cow has been with me since I went from hobby cattle to feeder calf producer.
With the layout I provided, I would want you to start in one of the East West paddocks and let the animals in from the lane. I would want you to have run a polytwine North South running parallel with the permanent perimeter fence and about 10 ft off the permanent fence. 
This would have been a 880' run on the polytwine. Then I would want you to time by a watch the time it takes the animals to eat the forage down to 3 " height. Using a little math then calculate how much area you would need to allocate to give the cattle enough grazing that they can graze down the area in 90 minutes to the 3 inch height. This allocated area will never be a constant. This is a short coming in making repetitive size permanent paddocks. I am the only person that I am aware of that promotes variable size paddocks. Most people boast of having large number of paddocks. In your quarter section in actuality you only have 3 defined paddocks (the northeast area to be included later). The advantage of what I promote is that you can readily adjust paddock size based on headcount, weather and season plus the large rectangular paddocks afford a lot of efficiency when it come time to service them.


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## ramiller5675

agmantoo - I like the idea of having lanes connecting the watering points and lifting the wire to allow access to the lanes, but how do you manage the access within the lane?

Using the Karen L layout as an example, you would have paddocks 880' long and approximately 50' wide (I assume), would you typically lift the wire and provide access to the entire lane so that cattle could water at both watering points in the lane or would you only allow access to the nearest watering point?

How high do you lift the wire and how do make sure that you keep it lifted?


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## agmantoo

ramiller5675 
Welcome to the site!
If I understand your question correctly here is what I would do. Yes, the paddock would be 880 ft in the north/south run. The east/west dimension would be variable to match the amount of forage available to the number of cattle using the paddock to feed them for 24 hours. I would limit the cattle to having access only to the nearest waterer. The remaining part of the paddock would be growing forage for feed. When I lift the lane wiring for the cattle to have access to the paddock I place a 7 foot long PVC 1 1/2 inch pipe over the fiberglass posts that held the wire. I have a V cut into the top end of the PVC pipe and I place the lane wire in that V. When I raise the wire that high the cattle are not reluctant to walk under it. To prevent the cattle from back grazing I run a polywire in back of them as well as the polywire that is in front of them in the grazing area. The back and the front polywires are spread much wider at the lane than the area being grazed in Karin's layout because with the lane wire raised so high the cattle could walk around the short east/west dimension of the area being grazed. In essence, I make a funnel shaped entry from the lane wire to the area partition off by the polywire being grazed. Here should be a pic of the PVC pipe with the V and the wire. Took this today so you could see the cattle and the PVC pipe that held the fence up so the cattle could walk under to new forage.


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## Karin L

Re: Post #413 - Thanks for the tip agmantoo...Now I went back and drew out as Rosewood suggested and some parts work out, particularly on the southern part of the U, but not the north part because of the interference with the riparian areas. Which means that the 880' still is viable for the northern half of the layout. However, seeing again your inferences on the price range for installing water pipe along that length is more economically sensible than having a longer north/south stretch and keeping the east-west lanes the same length. So, I decided to change it back to your original layout, along with a ~440' jut out to the northeast paddock. I dunno what I should do with the existing permanent fence that runs east-west in the middle of the homequarter...

Welcome, ramiller, btw. So agman, with each new movement onto new grass by polywire, that funnel doesn't change does it? I wonder if you can get a picture of that funnel you make with each switch onto new pasture?


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## Ken Scharabok

Per request I am making this one a sticky.


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## godsgapeach

Here's how the planned paddock area is greening up.

This is looking straight down the planned lane from the working area.









Toward the farm road from the same end of the lane (paddocks 1-4)









Toward the bluffs and creek (paddocks 5-8)









Congrats on your sticky Agman!


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## agmantoo

Hi Godsgapeach,
Thanks for posting the pics. Time is pressed this A.M. so I am going directly to the points I want to make. You know I am wanting to see some internal fence so I wont go there. Notice the cattle are strung/spread out? There is a reason. And that reason is why I am wanting to see fence. The cattle are not finding what they want to eat in quantity and they are all over the place looking for the best of the best in the forage. They in turn are going to eat the best of the best into suppression and what ever they are enjoying is going to be stressed into low or no future growth. Is there any chance you could move all the cattle across the road and let this area remain idle until you get the fence installed? I see your cattle eat red dirt the same as mine. Has anyone in your area ever commented as to why? I have tried numerous mineral/vitamin supplements and my cattle continue to eat dirt. I do not have a problem with them eating dirt. My problem is the holes that result and the destruction of the forage. Cya later.


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## godsgapeach

I know, I know. I'm working as fast as I (we) can to get the fence in place to get them off the area. Across the road just isn't feasible--doesn't carry any spare forage with the herd that's already there. I'll be out there again as soon as the storms pass through today.

And just to clarify, they're not eating the dirt. Those are ant hills that were mowed down (not intentionally--just hard to avoid) with the bushhog. I've been meaning to ask you if you have issues with fire ants... They join the thistle and persimmons in the list of already existing problems.


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## ErinP

karin, 
We're on a fairly typical cow/calf operation, though instead of hay in the winter, they run on harvested corn stalks. Because we can't get the owner to understand the concept of culling, we have cattle that are in their early 20s! Some of them are even still producing calves.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,

Only because I am anxious for you to benefit from the season is why I keep harassing regarding the pasture fence. Here is what it could look like. I took this today. This area was grazed in late Jan/early Feb. I am back having the herd to graze it to the ground as I am wanting the forage off so that I can plant Red River crabgrass shortly and I do not want the current forage to shade the RRCG as it germinates. I am attempting to grow some summer grazing forage.


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## godsgapeach

Believe me, Agman, I understand your motives! I don't think you're harassing, just expressing the necessity. I'm chomping at the bit to be done with the cross fencing, and we're not even started. Problem is, in working on the perimeter fence we discovered there is a lot that needed to be replaced rather than just repaired. Can't have the herd nose the hot wire and bolt through weak barbwire in rebellion. 

I see your clover--everything looks great! Do you have any other crabgrass or is this a test for something new? 

Can't wait to check it out in person!


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## agmantoo

This will be my first attempt with intentionally planted crabgrass. I have some volunteer crabgrass but this purchased seed is supposed to be far more productive.


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## res48

Agmantoo,
How do you deal with that spring when it just continues to rain and rain. I am curious about your rotation schedule to prevent your pastures from being destroyed.


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## agmantoo

res48
If possible, I try to graze the hillsides where some of the water runs off when it is really wet. The tractor that I pull the drag harrow to break up the cow patties almost constantly has a seed slinger mounted to the 3 point lift arms. I repair the damaged areas by pulling the worn out harrow which will fill the depressions some and spread seed at the same time. This is fescue seed that I have harvested myself and I have almost no expense in the seed. My biggest problem is the cow paths made when the cattle go to water. You may have noticed above, post 415, where I have the PVC pipe holding the wire up to act as a "gate". I move this gate frequently to avoid damage to the ground underneath the wire. I only leave the cattle on a paddock for 24hrs so that helps also.


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## Karin L

ErinP said:


> karin,
> We're on a fairly typical cow/calf operation, though instead of hay in the winter, they run on harvested corn stalks. Because we can't get the owner to understand the concept of culling, we have cattle that are in their early 20s! Some of them are even still producing calves.


I know some folks like to keep their older cows because of the genetic quality they bring into the herd, and of course if they're still able to produce good calves and come back into heat on time.

But of course, like you say if they're not bringing anything to the table why keep them? 

It sounds like you have your herd leased out so that another fella's looking after them for you, am I right? Maybe a bit of education of the kind of money that old open cows bring in the herd will perhaps give him incentive to sell the hard-keepers and keep those that are still able to produce.

Corn grazing is something that is being advocated down more south of the farm where I live because of the good hot temperatures that Central to Southern Alberta see to grow corn to either be harvested or used as cattle feed. It's more popular down there than it is up here, although I haven't gone for a number years without seeing a field or two with corn on it.


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## Karin L

For anyone interested, here is a document completed by ARECA (Agricultural Research and Extension Council of Alberta) on Extending the Grazing Season which covers all of Alberta, from the southern most area to the Peace Region (northern-most) area. Of course, don't let the fact that it's primarily based in Alberta faze you.


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## Karin L

agmantoo said:


> I would suggest suggest using the Ritchie CT2 waterers at each location.


Sorry I asked that dumb question about the Ritchie waterers, agman; I found the site with the Ritchie waters (apparently they are available in Canada  my bad). On this Ritchie site which waterer were you referring to, or one similar to it?


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## agmantoo

The fourth group down on the list. CT2 2 hole version


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## Allen W

Agmantoo

I know your a cow calf operation but for all the people who get a bottle calf during the spring or other times of the year, When would be the best time to put a small calf onto the grass?


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## Karin L

agmantoo said:


> The fourth group down on the list. CT2 2 hole version


Gotchya. Thanks.


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## Karin L

Allen W said:


> Agmantoo
> 
> I know your a cow calf operation but for all the people who get a bottle calf during the spring or other times of the year, When would be the best time to put a small calf onto the grass?


Though I don't raise bottle calves, but if you look at young calves that are naturally-raisd, they are already experimenting the stuff that their mommas eat as soon as they can stand and suckle. So I'd say she can have access to grass at any time, even when she's still on the bottle. A calf's rumen can really start to function at about 125 days (if I'm correct on this), but there's nothing wrong with her/him having access to pasture before this.


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## wstevenl

I know that some of you will be interested in the new Farmers Forum at Natures Harmony Farm's website. It could end up being a great resource, much like this thread has been to so many.
http://naturesharmony.proboards.com


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for posting the link, wstevenl. I've met one Nature's Harmony's "interns" and he explained how they're bucking the system as far as GA poultry processing (explained on their regular blog). I'm not as familiar with their cattle dealings though. I've been meaning to make a visit to their farm since it's only about an hour from here... just hasn't happened yet.


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## agmantoo

Allen W said:


> Agmantoo
> 
> I know your a cow calf operation but for all the people who get a bottle calf during the spring or other times of the year, When would be the best time to put a small calf onto the grass?


Allen, I would have bought my calf in the Fall provided I had a 3 side sided shed for it to get out of the weather. Before the weather got cold I would have weaned the animal and have it on hay and calf feed. When the calf is small is time to feed it the more expensive feeds as it will not be eating a lot and the gain to feed ratio would be the highest. By March here in zone 7 I would be slowly phasing the animal onto grass and just a small amount of calf feed. In so doing, by the time grass and clover is into high gear with growing, the calf would be conditioned to digesting the forage and would be large enough to eat ample forage to meet its needs. I would grow the animal as far into Fall or early Winter as the pasture could carry it then I would process the animal. If I wanted grain fed meat I would feed the grain the last 60 days. This would produce a year old animal and it would not have attained normal commercial market weight but I would not want to carry an animal this large into the Winter if I had to purchase feed. However, at this age I would feel confident that I would have some good tender beef and enough yield to justify the processing.


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## godsgapeach

Got the 2 bulls we're selling put up in the lot just a bit ago along with a couple of bull calves and a heifer, and a cow that's quit calving. They'll be off to the sale barn in the morning. We're moving in the right direction... (sloooowly)


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## godsgapeach

You won't believe it, but of the 7 we had in the lot last night, only 3 (2 big bulls and one bull calf) were still in this morning. Apparently the cow decided to pull a Michael Jordan and jump the 5 foot corral panel. She must have gotten caught up in it because it was completely mangled--looks like it's been run over a few times. As far as Daddy's concerned, I think she pretty much put a big target on her head. She'll go straight on the trailer next time. Of course she wouldn't come anywhere near the lot tonight.

Anyway, the bulls still took their trip and we got a couple more bull calves and a few heifers (too tall and leggy to fit the program) in tonight and they'll go tomorrow morning. Two steps forward, one step back.


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## Gardalmun

Hi All,
I'm enjoying this thread. Lots of good ideas. I have been looking at rotational grazing and all of that traditional fencing ( lots of posts and barbed wire ) has been keeping me from getting too serious.
Agmantoo, I am amazed by your fence. 
I have been through the thread twice and might be blind, and at the risk of asking you to repeat your self. Would you please detail how you install the PVC posts. 
Thanks Gary


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## agmantoo

Gardalmun
First, let me welcome you to the site!

Gary, I do not mind restating anything I enter here. It is difficult to enter and edit in the area available in these response windows and I know I am often unclear. Trying to concentrate on typing and keeping the thought to be expressed is often a challenge to me. If I fail to be explicit feel free to ask for clarification. It is important to me to be concise. I do not want to be responsible for someone making a mistake on my behalf.
Regarding the posts. I use a PVC/Fiberglass composite post that is drilled every 2 inches. These posts are from 3/4 to 7/8 inch in diameter and I use a small pipe with a weight welded to one end to drive the post into the earth. This driver is a small version of a Tee post driver and is used in the same manner. To give the cattle access from the lane into the area of the paddock where they will graze I use a PVC 1 1/2 inch diameter schedule 40 plumbing pipe with a V cut in one end. This PVC pipe is approximately 7 1/2 ft long. I pull the hairpin that holds the high tensile partition wire and place the PVC 1 1/2 inch pipe over the small PVC.Fiberglass post with the V to the top. The partition wire is then placed in the V. The cattle and my 4 wheeler can now pass under the wire and we have access to the paddock. I do not have any conventional gates. I do not think that I have mentioned it previously but I can remove the hairpins from two adjacent posts (60 ft apart) and reinsert the hairpins with it holding the permanent wire at ground level. This will permit vehicle traffic to enter most anywhere in any paddock by driving over the wire.


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## Allen W

Agman 
Your answer is right in line with my thinking. Too many people want to start with a baby calf in the spring when they need to have a calf ready to go onto the grass and be eating on his own.
Another thing to consider is that during the year that times, like the late hot part of summer and Thanksgiving to Christmas' time bottle calves are often cheaper because no one wants to mess with them then. One shouldn't over look a slightly bigger calf that wouldn't require milk. They often don't cost any more then the bottle calf plus milk.

After reading some other posts on the various livestock forums on here sometimes a person needs to think backward. Starting with what they want the finished product to be, then figure back to where they want to start to see if that goal is attainable. Then adjust their plan to better fit their needs.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Allen W said:


> Agmantoo
> 
> I know your a cow calf operation but for all the people who get a bottle calf during the spring or other times of the year, When would be the best time to put a small calf onto the grass?



We raise 4-5 calves a year for butcher. All are dairy bottle calves, bought at about 1 week old. I have tried several different timing options, and found the best to be as agman said. We buy in fall before severe cold, keep them in a shed and bottle feed. Usually by the time spring growth is going strong, the calves are ready to utilize that growth. The only concern is potential runs when they switch to the green grass, but started slowly, they'll do fine. We then feed them hay the first winter as yearlings, then fatten/butcher the next fall. This gives us 2 yo calves, just about right for butchering. If you get your calves in spring, then the next fall they'll be 1 1/2 yo, a little young to be butchered. This way, the first winter they're on milk/grain, the second they're just yearlings so don't eat that much hay. Fatten by fall and butcher when the weather gets cool.

Another thought though, around here bottle calf prices have gone up, and milk has too, so that with $80 in the calf and $70-100 in the milk replacer, you could go to the auction and get a meat breed feeder calf for just a little more $$ and save yourself all that work. That's been my thinking lately. Calves used to be cheap, but as dairies get fewer and they need more $$ on the receiving end, calves are going up.


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## Allen W

Rosewoodfarm
I have been doing some thinking somewhat along that line. I can buy beef calves here in the late summer big enough they would at most need minimal bottle feeding. Start them on grain and hay, get them straight and take them to pasture and keep graining them till wheat pasture was up. Take them through until spring and sell for started grass calves at about 400lbs.


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## Gardalmun

Agmantoo
Thanks for restating that. It was all there, I just thought I had missed something. Sounded to good to be true. 
We have clay with rocks, maybe rocks with some clay. How are fiberglass posts for driving? I've only used wooden posts.
Gary


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## wstevenl

check this out http://www.powerflexfence.com/custom2.html
this is alot of advice from the guys at Powerflex. Down at the bottom of the page they talk about driving the posts in rocky ground. Their posts is a plastic/wood composite that can bend to a 90 deg. angle and pop back into place. We've got the fiberglass posts now but will probably go with powerflex next time. The only down side seems to be that you have to drill your holes as you go, but it leaves the post stronger with less holes.


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## godsgapeach

I'm shooting for powerflex posts, too when we finally get to that point. 

I also like their How To section http://www.powerflexfence.com/Article1.html 

They also have an article for the tire tank waterer that Agman has mentioned on that page.


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## SteveO

Afternoon All,
With all the discussion of frame size is there a reason that using a lowline Bull wouldn't be a solution?
Thanks just asken
Steve


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## godsgapeach

It'll definitely make a difference, SteveO. I'm planning to purchase one tomorrow. 

A lowline won't solve all the issues we've got here with the big framed Santa Gertrudis mixes we've got, but it'll be a step in the right direction!


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## godsgapeach

http://www.superiorlivestock.com/videocatalog/lotlist.sla?cid=332&view=132&sName=PC

What do you think?


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## wstevenl

Looks nice, is he a Lowline? or 1/2 Lowline? I couldn't find anything about his sire other than a name.


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## ArmyDoc

He looks nice to me. FS 3.5. But he's listed in the brochure as 100% Angus, not lowline.

As for using a lowline to make a dramatic change in your heard frame size, the one problem I've heard is that the second generation offspring are not as consistent in size. Apparently, the first generation is all about the same size, but when these cattle are bread, they may throw back to either their taller or smaller ancestors, making them less consistent producers. The person who told me this it is better to move down gradually than suddenly. Anyone heard of this happening or had any experience with it?


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## godsgapeach

My mistake, of course! Still learning--that's what I'm here for. Not lowline since I assumed lowline was just a reference to smaller frame size. One of these days I'll learn not to "assume" anything.

Yes, he's a 3.5 which is considerably smaller framed than we've ever had. When he actually gets here, I'll post real pics--I figure sometime next week since I'll be out of town over the weekend.


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## SteveO

He is a nice looking animal. And possibly stepping down to a 42" tall bull would cause problems. The good thing is it is a process in 2-3 years or less step down again in size. The max a lowline should be is 48" tall. Looking at Agmans stock his must be close to that or a few inches taller. If I can find it I will put my favorite Bull to date on here for review. 

If we take one step forward at least we are moving so push on
Steve


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## SteveO

Here he is. Nice build

http://www.kylowline.com/Links/Herd_Sires.htm

Steve:rock:


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## godsgapeach

If I had a 42" tall bull, he'd have to have stilts.  We're trying to reduce the frame size gradually and I'm hoping for the 3 years timeframe. Buying this bull is a good step in the right direction.

I just need a glossary for all the terms that pop up around here--that might keep me out of trouble, but I doubt it.


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## Karin L

godsgapeach said:


> http://www.superiorlivestock.com/videocatalog/lotlist.sla?cid=332&view=132&sName=PC
> 
> What do you think?


He looks like a bull that will be very useful to you. I like him myself.


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## ArmyDoc

I think lowlines make sense for the homesteader raising beef for themselves, and for those who have developed a direct market program. But I understand they will be docked severely at auction if sold as commercial animals. 

From what I've been able to gather, from FS 3-5 you are right in the right ball park for what the commercial / feed lot market is looking for. Smaller or larger, and you start getting docked... may change in the future, and probably should, but that's the way it is right now.

Based on that, I think I'm going to shoot for an average herd size of 3.5


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc, what we're ultimately shooting for is a program where we can direct market as much as we can, but still use the sale barn as needed. We don't want to get locked in to only one thing.

It's going to take a while to get scaled back to the "right" size, but I'm hoping this bull will get us going in the right direction!


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## agmantoo

I find it somewhat surprising that what works for feeder calf producers using rotational grazing to produce the most cost effective calves also works for the feed lot that desires to have comparable results. With the smaller cattle we get a heifer that cycles readily and can produce a calf at 24 months. In turn she can economically maintain body condition, nurture her offspring and be bred at the same time. The calf will return a good profit for the producer and then possibly move to a feedlot and in a much shorter time period mature into a finished animal that will grade select or better very efficiently. This animals will generate a good profit for the finisher and move on to the processor where it will yield a marketable product that is in demand thus creating another good return and at a profit. How we ever drifted away from these animals to the much larger less efficient animals remains confusing to me. It all reverts, IMO, that the producers were sold a bill of goods that was untrue by an lot of marketing people ( animal breeders, grain producers, all hat no cows experts, etc.) looking only after their own interests.


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## SteveO

Let me make a comment then.
I have no practical experience and all I deal with is numbers. So I am your consumer.
Grass fed is better than grain fed there is a different taste

From reading
black cows sell at a higher price than others 5-10 cent a pound
As this thread has shown 1.5 1000# can be grown on the same land as one 1600#. Much faster and cheaper.

I Mr Joe public don't care about all that all I want is a more healthy piece of beef. No roids no hormones and more and more that means grass fed. The owner of the company that I work for owns 2 up scale Steak houses all Grass fed Angus. Up here in then NE thats the way things seem to be going.

And as a point of interest the Lowline is the original Angus. The beasts of today have been bred super sized. So now the cycle reverses and we breed smaller. One more point before I get off my soapbox. A lowline will produce 7-15% more meat on the table at the end of the day.
So Peaches plan of marketing his own should work.
Check out a website gramma's Dexters they do just that and I think burger go's for 3.50$/pound and they are sold out
In about 2 years I will speak from experience untill then it's all about the numbers

STeve


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## godsgapeach

I agree, Agman. It seems like "they" said "let's see how high they'll jump" when they pushed the bigger is better theory. And unfortunately many people got sucked in, including my family. Now we're backpedaling to get something more manageable and at least a little profitable. 

On another note, I'm really looking forward to visiting your operation on Saturday!

I'll be glad to share a rookie's view of what Agman is doing that makes this whole plan work. And if anybody has any questions or wants a picture of something in particular, I'll be glad to cover it if I can.

Y'all have a great day.


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## ArmyDoc

I think Agmantoo's approach makes sense too. My understanding Agmantoo, not to put word in your mouth, is that your average frame size is about 4 and you are moving towards 3?

Here's what NDSU says about Frame size and weight to produce a Choice grade carcass. (full article here: http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm)

Table 3. Relationship of frame size to projected 
mature cow weight and slaughter weight at Choice 
Quality Grade.
----------------------------------------------------
BIF 
Numerical USDA Mature Steer Heifer
Frame Feeder Calf Cow Slaughter Slaughter
Score Frame Size Weight Weight Weight
----------------------------------------------------
2 Small 955 850 700
3 1030 950 800
----------------------------------------------------
4 Medium 1100 1050 900
5 1175 1150 1000
----------------------------------------------------
6 Large 1250 1250 1100
7 1320 1350 1200
8 1395 1450 1300
9 1470 1550 1400
----------------------------------------------------
Source: Adapted from Boggs, South Dakota State 
University, 1991

To me, this reads that a frame size 3-4 cow will weigh 1000-1100 pounds. That's the size Kit Pharo and Agmantoo say are the most feed efficient. What amazes me is that when you go looking on most breeder's sites, they all talk about their "moderate frame" cattle, but when you look closer their cattle are frame size 5.5 and larger.

From what I've read, the happy medium between premium prices at market, and performance on grass is a frame size around 3.5 

Agmantoo, please correct me if I am wrong on this. I was originally planning on going with lowline angus, but have since changed my mind. As I understand it, the problem with smaller cattle, particularly extremely small cattle such as the lowlines is that while they are indeed more feed efficient (good for the rancher), but they are not more slaughter efficient (good for the meat packer). 

Lowlines are less than frame 0. If you extend the scale backward, a frame 0 animal (41-42 inches for a cow and 44 to 46 inches for a bull) would weigh about 800 pounds for a mature cow, 650 for a steer and 500 for a heiffer. That means that you have to slaughter 1.5 animals to get the same amount of finished meat than you get from a larger animal. That affects their bottom line, and that is why they dock the price of smaller animals.


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## godsgapeach

According to that table, ArmyDoc, most of ours right now are in the 6-7 range.


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## godsgapeach

Here he is! 

In the working lot:









In a grazing section of the lot:









He arrived during a storm last night, but calmly got off the trailer and went right to grazing. He's very docile and seems pretty happy with his buffet choices this morning.


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## Karin L

He looks good. Is he a yearling?


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## godsgapeach

Thanks! And yes he's a yearling--born 3/3/08.


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## ArmyDoc

He looks like he made the trip with flying colors! Congratulations!


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## shortstuff

ArmyDoc said:


> I think lowlines make sense for the homesteader raising beef for themselves, and for those who have developed a direct market program. But I understand they will be docked severely at auction if sold as commercial animals.
> 
> From what I've been able to gather, from FS 3-5 you are right in the right ball park for what the commercial / feed lot market is looking for. Smaller or larger, and you start getting docked... may change in the future, and probably should, but that's the way it is right now.
> 
> Based on that, I think I'm going to shoot for an average herd size of 3.5


Severely docked? ??? Maybe if you are selling fullblood Lowline steers, but not the 1/2 bloods, particularly 1/2 bloods out of the bigger Lowline bulls (around 48 inches tall, like Doc Holliday, the bull Steve O linked). 

FYI, I sold a 1/2 Lowline steer at auction. 11 Months old, weighed almost 700 lbs. Grossed $749 & some change. I also know several people who produce grass fed beef & their 1/2 Lowline steers typically weigh 1,000 - 1,100 lbs. at finishing. 

Just so that you know that I am not blowing smoke. Below is a 3 year University Test from NDSU Dickinson... 125 Lowline sired steers out of commercial heifers over a 3 year period. They calved them out & owned them all the way to slaughter...









That doesn't look like "severely docked" to me. 


The bull that Steve O mentioned weighed 1,465 lbs. & measured 48.5 inches tall at 40 months. If you see him in person, like I have, you will instantly see that he has more depth & natural thickness than that FS 3.5 bull... And that's not a knock on that frame 3.5 bull, he looks nice, as do a lot of Pharo Cattle, but Lowline's typically have more width than most of their Angus cousins have. I've seen several herds that have used Doc Holliday & he will constantly sires calves that are frame 3-5 & out of frame 6 & 7 cows & they look like peas in a pod. He will also sire 1,000+ lb. 1/2 blood grass fed steers. 

Below is a daughter of Doc Holliday, out of a frame 6 something Tarentaise cow. She's right around a year old in the picture & probably a low frame 4 something. Not every Lowline bull will sire calves like this one, but Doc Holliday will do it consistently. Give me a whole herd of heifers & steers just like this one & I will be very happy. 










Below is a Lowline X Angus cow with a 7 month old Doc Holliday sired calf (3/4 blood) at her side.


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## shortstuff

Here are some more 1/2 Lowlines (none of these are sired by Doc Holliday... these are sired by 45 inch tall or shorter Lowline bulls)... 

Lowline X Red Angus Bull... just over a year old. And a butt shot of him as a baby. 

















Lowline X Shorthorn Heifer... just over a year old. 










17 month old Lowline X Tarentaise bull


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## ArmyDoc

shortstuff said:


> Severely docked? ??? Maybe if you are selling fullblood Lowline steers, but not the 1/2 bloods. FYI, I sold a 1/2 Lowline steer at auction. 11 Months old, weighed almost 700 lbs. Grossed $749 & some change.
> 
> The bull that Steve O mentioned weighed 1,465 lbs. & measured 48.5 inches tall at 40 months. If you see him in person, like I have, you will instantly see that he has a lot more depth & natural thickness than that FS 3.5 bull... a lot more. I've seen several herds that have used him & he will constantly sires calves that are frame 3-5 & out of frame 6 & 7 cows & they look like peas in a pod. He will also sire 1,000+ lb. 1/2 blood grass fed steers.
> 
> Below is a daughter of Doc Holliday, out of a frame 6 something Tarentaise cow. She's right around a year old in the picture & probably a frame 4 something. Not every Lowline bull will sire calves like this one, but Doc Holliday will do it consistently. Give me a whole herd of heifers & sires just like this one & I will be very happy.


I think you may have misunderstood me. I said that lowlines sold as commercial cattle would be severely docked at auction. By that, I mean lowline cattle - for bulls thats 100-110cm, or 39-43 inches ie. frame size less than frame size 0. I never said you would be penalized for a frame size 4 animal... in fact, just the opposite.

Also, if the bull Steve O is refering to is 48 inches at 40 months, then he is frame size 1. That's very large for a lowline. Infact, it's about about 5 inches larger than what would be allowed withing the breed standard, at least as it was originally bred in Australia. http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/australianlowline/index.htm and http://lowline.une.edu.au/

<edit>I just looked up the breed standard as listed at the USA registry - it looks like they have increased the standard from the Australian standard, and are allowing 40-48inches.


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## ArmyDoc

Shortstuff,

Not trying to pick a fight. It looks like the lowline crosses may be a good way to bring down the frame size of large cattle.

Have you had any experience with the offspring of these crosses, or should they be just used in a terminal program? ie, just for slaughter?

I guess what I'm asking is, if you start with lowline crosses, will they breed consistently, or will there offspring have a lot of variation in size?


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## shortstuff

ArmyDoc said:


> I think you may have misunderstood me. I said that lowlines sold as commercial cattle would be severely docked at auction. By that, I mean lowline cattle - for bulls thats 100-110cm, or 39-43 inches ie. frame size less than frame size 0. I never said you would be penalized for a frame size 4 animal... in fact, just the opposite.
> 
> Also, if the bull Steve O is refering to is 48 inches at 40 months, then he is frame size 1. That's very large for a lowline. Infact, it's about about 5 inches larger than what would be allowed withing the breed standard, at least as it was originally bred in Australia. http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/australianlowline/index.htm and http://lowline.une.edu.au/
> 
> <edit>I just looked up the breed standard as listed at the USA registry - it looks like they have increased the standard from the Australian standard, and are allowing 40-48inches.


I didn't misunderstand you, I just wanted to show that fullblood Lowline bulls can sire those frame 3-5 cattle like you want. 

Yes, the bull that Steve O referred to is a frame 1 something. Actually, he is indeed one of the bigger Lowlines that you will find. However, there is no "breed standard", it should actually be called a "breed recommendation". As long as the DNA on both parents match, they can be registered with no other questions asked. But, the both the American's & the Australian's are very strict when it comes to the DNA tests matching. I know for a fact that the Australians are registering & advertising 48-49 inch tall Lowline bulls. In fact, the popular trend in the Lowline breed are bulls in the 45-49 inch range. The sire of that red bull is somewhere around 44 inches, so he is a little shorter than the 1/2 bloods out of Doc Holliday. 

FYI, this young, little guy is also a fullblood Lowline bull & he also is right around a frame 1 too. It will be interesting to see how he matures. He's a son of Zeffirelli (Australian fullblood Lowline bull) & out of Ardrossan Nardia, a popular Australian fullblood Lowline donor cow. Like Doc Holliday, both of this bulls parents are registered in Australia, and he is registered in the USA, despite being a frame 1 or so. 











The original importers, & even many who first started with the Lowlines in Australia, mostly wanted the smaller Lowlines, to reach the "mini" or the "pet market", but there has never been a strict standard & some of the Australians began with the bigger genetics. However, as you pointed out, those tiny Lowlines (39-43 inches) just aren't practical for beef production & because of that, they are becoming harder to find. Actually, all of the grass feed producers that I know, want 1/2 - 3/4 blood Lowline steers. Most of them do not want the fullblood or the higher percentage Lowline cattle for steers. And the majority of fullblood breeders that I know, want the 45-49 inch bulls.


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## shortstuff

ArmyDoc said:


> Shortstuff,
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight. It looks like the lowline crosses may be a good way to bring down the frame size of large cattle.
> 
> Have you had any experience with the offspring of these crosses, or should they be just used in a terminal program? ie, just for slaughter?
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is, if you start with lowline crosses, will they breed consistently, or will there offspring have a lot of variation in size?


I understand. I wasn't either. I just wanted to show you what Lowlines can produce, because a lot of misinformation is floating around & I know both 1st hand & 2nd hand, what they can do. 

Yes, actually, that is my goal... to produce a herd of 1/2 blood Lowline females. Pictured below is one of my 1/2 Lowline 1st calf heifers with two 1/2 blood calves grazing with her. They are not her calves... both are sired by Doc Holliday & they are 4 months old. Her 4 month old (3/4 blood) heifer calf is pictured below that picture... 


















Pictured below is a 1/2 Lowline X 1/2 Angus cow (2004 model - 3rd calf) with a 7 month old 3/4 blood Lowline calf (she's also pictured above). She easily could handle a small/moderate birth weight bull. Cross Creek Farms, in Indiana, owns her & several other 1/2 Lowline X 1/2 Angus females & that herd is as consistent as you will ever see. 










Lenhard Angus Ranch, in Washington state, bred some of their 1/2 Lowline cows to a full sized calving ease Angus bull. Those calves are 3/4 Angus X 1/4 Lowline. I haven't seen the calves, but he is very excited about the potential. I should have pictures of those pairs, later this summer/early fall. The Lenhard's also have used Doc Holliday, including flushing to him. According to them, all the Doc calves are very good, but they have a 1/2 blood heifer calf that they say is exceptional. 

Richard Wahl, in Kansas, has been using Lowline & percentage Lowline bulls & females for several years now & he loves what he's getting. He's planning to AI breed 450 or so open heifers to Lowline & 1/2 Lowline bulls & probably is going to breed some cows too. He's using Lowline, Aurbac's, Red Angus, Tarentaise & I don't know what all else, but he's pretty sold on the percentage Lowline cattle & like me, his goal is to have a herd of percentage Lowline cattle. This isn't some guy with a few head, who just got started in the Lowline deal... he's got a very large commercial herd & he's been using Lowline bulls & percentage females for several years now. 

I honestly haven't seen much variation, if the cows that you start with are all pretty uniform. Yes, you could possibly get an occasional fluke, but that's the way with just about anything. I'll go as far to say that the Lowline offspring, & their offspring, are as consistent as anything that I've seen. And I've been around several breeds. Probably because the whole Lowline breed is very closely related, and more or less line-bred. I think that line-breeding, or a real close variation, is the key to consistency, IMHO. Even when you cross line-bred cattle, you still see consistency. 

I've never done it yet, although I plan to do it & I've seen it done, but I've been told (and I've seen the offspring) that mating 1/2 Lowline bulls to 1/2 Lowline females produces very consistent offspring. If it were me, I would mate 1/2 blood to 1/2 blood to produce F2's & then mate those. I think that you will really like the results, particularly if you want cattle that are easy keeping & very efficient on grass.


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## shortstuff

I didn't intend to highjack this thread... it just seemed to have already been highjacked. So, I just want to mention in conclusion, that when people say "Lowline", they instantly think of fullblood Lowline cattle. However, the American Lowline Registry registers percentage Lowlines too. In fact, at all the Lowline shows that I am aware of in the USA, they show percentage Lowlines that are 50% & above. Actually, the market for 1/2 blood Lowline breeding stock is quite good, although it's not quite as lucrative as the fullblood market. However, I've seen several 1/2 blood bulls & females sell for more than $1,500 & I've seen 1/2 blood weanling steers sell to grass finishers for $1.35 lb. & the buyers wanted more the following year.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for the compliment, ArmyDoc. 

And Agman, thanks so much for the grand tour today. We thoroughly enjoyed it!

After I have some time to process all that I saw, I'll probably ask more questions (shocker).


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## agmantoo

The following report, thou dated, makes good reading.

The Feeder Calf Grading System

AS-1043, April 1992

Stephen Boyles, NDSU Extension Livestock Specialist
Tim Flakoll, NDSU Beef Herdsman
Kris Ringwall, NDSU Extension Livestock Specialist

o Frame
o Thickness
o Terminology
o Frame Size and Muscling Effects on Feedlot Performance
o Summary

Grading systems are important to the cattle industry for several reasons. They provide a common language for describing various types of cattle. Transactions can be made without a buyer seeing the cattle. In the case of feeder cattle, a grading system allows one to predict the feedlot performance and carcass characteristics of the finished cattle. They can also be used by the owner of cattle to evaluate the current breeding program.

U.S. beef cattle herds were once mainly descended from three British breeds. Today, more than 40 different breeds are being used. This and other changes prompted the U.S. Department of Agriculture to revise the Official United States Standards for Grades of Feeder Cattle. These grades provide a common terminology to describe cattle in market reports. The current USDA feeder cattle grading system is based on frame size and muscle thickness. The system also has projected slaughter weights of the animals. The grades have three frame sizes and three thickness grades.

Nine possible combinations (three frame sizes, three muscle thicknesses) of feeder cattle grade exist for thrifty animals, as well as an Inferior grade for unthrifty animals. The Inferior grade includes feeder cattle which are unthrifty due to mismanagement, disease, parasitism, or lack of feed. An animal grading Inferior could qualify for a muscle thickness and frame size grade at a later date, provided the unthrifty condition was corrected. "Double-muscled" animals are included in the Inferior grade, although such animals have a large amount of muscle. They are graded U.S. Inferior because of their inability to produce carcasses with an acceptable degree of meat quality.

Frame

Frame size is used because frame is an inherited characteristic that is not greatly affected by normal management practices. Frame size relates to height but also to the weight at which an animal will produce a carcass of a given grade. Larger framed cattle typically reach equal fat thickness at heavier weights than smaller framed cattle.

The three frame scores normally used are Large, Medium and Small, referred to as L, M and S, respectively.

Large Frame (L): Large frame cattle are thrifty, tall and long bodied for their age. Steers would be expected to produced the amount of external (subcutaneous) fat opposite the 12th rib, usually about .5 inch, normally associated with the U.S. Choice grade when their live weight exceeds 1200 pounds. Heifers would not be expected to produce Choice carcasses until their live weight exceeds 1000 pounds.

Medium Frame (M): Medium frame cattle are thrifty and moderate in height and body length for their age. Steers would be expected to produce U.S. Choice carcasses, about .5 inch fat at 12th rib, at live weights of 1000 to 1200 pounds. Heifers would be expected to produce Choice carcasses at 850 to 1000 pounds.

Small Frame (S): Small frame cattle are thrifty but are shorter in height and body length than specified for Medium frame cattle. Steers would be expected to produce U.S. Choice carcasses, about .5 inch fat at 12th rib, at live weights less than 1000 pounds. Heifers would be expected to produce Choice carcasses at live weights of about 850 pounds.

The frame size portion of the grade standard must be determined by an evaluation of the animal's skeletal size in relation to its age. For example, two feeder cattle with the same height and body length but differing substantially in age would not be the same frame size. The appearance of feeder cattle can be use to estimate age. As feeder cattle mature, their ears decrease in size in relation to their heads; the muzzle becomes wider; the head becomes longer in relation to its width; and the tail increases in length and exhibits a more prominent switch.

Frame size and breed should not be automatically equated. It is very possible for the largest cattle in a small mature size breed to be as large as the smallest cattle in a large mature size breed.

Thickness

Thickness is related to the muscle-to-bone ratio at a given degree of fatness to carcass yield grade. An example would be a thinly muscled animal having a Choice, Yield Grade 3 carcass, while the carcass of a thickly muscled animal may be Choice, yield Grade 2. The three muscle thickness grades are designated by Number 1, Number 2 and Number 3.

Fat can visibly alter the perception of muscling. Therefore muscle thickness is appraised at a constant degree of fatness (slightly thin). Some feeder cattle may carry more than a thin degree of fat and should be appraised for the degree of muscling they would have possessed at a slightly thin fat cover.

Number 1: Number 1 muscle thickness feeder cattle typically have a high proportion of beef breeding. They must be thrifty and thick throughout. They are full in the forearm and exhibit muscularity over the back and through the loin with moderate width between the legs. Cattle can exhibit thickness with even a slightly thin covering of fat; however, cattle eligible for this grade may carry varying degrees of fat.

Number 2: Number 2 muscle thickness feeder cattle are thrifty and somewhat narrower through the fore- and hindquarters. The forearm is thin and the back and loin have a sunken appearance. The legs are set close together. Cattle exhibit this narrowness with a slightly thin covering of fat; however, cattle eligible for this grade may carry varying degrees of fat.

Number 3: Feeder cattle in this grade are thrifty and have less thickness than the minimum requirements specified for the Number 2 grade.

The Number 1 grade includes all feeder cattle previously under the 1964 Prime and Choice grades. The Number 2 grade includes cattle previously under the 1964 Good and Standard grades and the Number 3 grades includes all cattle that would have been less than Standard. Approximately 90 percent of all feeder cattle are in the Number 1 muscling grade, about 10 percent are number 2 grade, and less than 1 percent are in the Number 3 grade. The vast majority of cattle of beef breeding will be in the Number 1 grade and dairy crosses will be in the Number 2 grade.
Terminology

Radio and newspaper market reports will use terms such as L1, M2, etc. L1 refers to large frame-number 1 muscle thickness. M2 means medium frame-number 2 muscle thickness. Number 1, 2, 3 muscle thickness is also seen as No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3 in other market reports.
Continued in the next post article too long for a single submission


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## agmantoo

Continued from post 476 above


Frame Size and Muscling Effects on Feedlot Performance

Kansas researchers compiled feedlot records from more than 5000 steer calves involved in their 1974-1983 steer futurity program (Table 1.). Producers consigned the calves for performance testing, usually in commercial feedlots. All steers involved were classified according to frame. In general, as frame size increased, calves were heavier at the start of feeding, daily gain increased, fat thickness decreased, yield grades were improved and USDA quality grade decreased. According to the researchers, there seemed to be a diminishing return for steers as they got above what was termed 6 frame score. Optimum frame size will be a function of carcass weight, yield grade and the prevailing price spread between Prime, Choice and Select grades at time of marketing.

Table 1. Effect of Frame Score on Steer Performance in 
Kansas Futurities (1974-1983) 
-------------------------------------------------------------
Frame Score 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 
-------------------------------------------------------------
Number of 
steers 22  127 305 526 593 483 203 56
Yearling hip 
height (in.) 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52
Initial 
Weight (lb.) 496 536 576 602 641 683 706 752 
Final Weight 
(lb.) 939 993 1039 1102 1174 1240 1274 1313
Daily Gain 
(lb./day) 2.6 2.8 2.8 3.1 3.2 3.4 3.4 3.5
Dressing 
Percent 61 61 61 61 61 61 61 61
Carcass Weight 
(lb.) 571 606 634 672 716 757 777 801 
Fat Thickness 
(in.) .42 .44 .44 .42 .39 .37 .32 .31
Rib-eye Area 
(in.2) 11.9 11.9 12.1 12.8 13.4 13.7 13.9 1.43
Yield Grade 2.5 2.6 2.6 2.5 2.4 2.4 2.2 2.2
Quality Grade* 7.3 7.2 7.0 6.8 6.7 6.5 6.4 6.1
Days on Feed 172 166 165 162 163 165 167 162
Return $53 $62 $62 $65 $76 $83 $86 $85
-------------------------------------------------------------
*6=USDA high Select, 7=USDA low Choice

A Colorado study (Table 2.) compared performance of steers of each of the USDA Feeder Grade frame sizes. Small, Medium and Large Fame steers were fed a finishing ration for 135 days. As in the Kansas study, total gains, daily gains, final weight, carcass weight and rib-eye area were greater as frame size increased.

Table 2. Feedlot Performance of Small, Medium 
and Large Frame Steers 
---------------------------------------------- 
Frame Score Small Medium Large
---------------------------------------------- 
Initial Weight (lb.) 651 770 880
Final Weight (lb.) 1016 1186 1313
Daily Gain (lb./day) 2.7 3.1 3.2
Feed Intake (lb.) 19.1 22.3 24.1
Feed to Gain 7.0 7.2 7.4
Carcass Weight (lb.) 621 739 817
Fat Thickness (lb.) 0.5 0.5 0.5
Rib-eye Area (in.2) 11.9 12.8 13.9
Yield Grade 2.8 3.0 2.9
Quality Grade* 6.1 5.8 5.6
---------------------------------------------- 
*5=USDA low Choice, 6=USDA average Choice

It is important to note that while Large Frame steers had more rapid gains than Small Frame steers, the Small Frame steers were the most efficient. Although it may seem odd that faster gaining cattle could be less efficient, two facts must be considered. First, large cattle require more feed for maintenance and therefore must gain faster to maintain equal feed efficiency. Second, the final backfat thicknesses for all three frame sizes in the Colorado trial were similar, indicating that all the cattle were slaughtered at about the same physiological maturity and carcass composition. Quality grade also decreased as frame size increased.
Summary

The USDA Feeder Cattle Grading System allows for a common terminology for describing feeder cattle. It allows livestock producers to evaluate different groups of calves and predict their future performance. It is important to understand these grades since they are the basis for many livestock reports. A certain amount of sorting may be required for each group to attain their optimum carcass weight and not be over- or under-fed.


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## shortstuff

ArmyDoc said:


> Shortstuff,
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight. It looks like the lowline crosses may be a good way to bring down the frame size of large cattle.
> 
> Have you had any experience with the offspring of these crosses, or should they be just used in a terminal program? ie, just for slaughter?
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is, if you start with lowline crosses, will they breed consistently, or will there offspring have a lot of variation in size?


I understand. I just wanted to show you what Lowlines can produce, because a lot of misinformation is floating around & I know what they can do. 

Yes, actually, that is my goal... to produce a herd of 1/2 blood Lowline females. Pictured below is one of my 1/2 Lowline 1st calf heifers with two 1/2 blood calves grazing with her. They are not her calves... both are sired by Doc Holliday & they are 4 months old. Her 4 month old (3/4 blood) heifer calf is pictured below that picture... 


















Pictured below is a 1/2 Lowline X 1/2 Angus cow (2004 model - 3rd calf) with a 7 month old 3/4 blood Lowline calf (she's also pictured above). She easily could handle a small/moderate birth weight bull. Cross Creek Farms, in Indiana, owns her & several other 1/2 Lowline X 1/2 Angus females & that herd is as consistent as you will ever see. 










Lenhard Angus Ranch, in Washington state, bred some of their 1/2 Lowline cows to a full sized calving ease Angus bull. Those calves are 3/4 Angus X 1/4 Lowline. I haven't seen the calves, but he is very excited about the potential. I should have pictures of those pairs, later this summer/early fall. The Lenhard's also have used Doc Holliday, including flushing to him. According to them, all the Doc calves are very good, but they have a 1/2 blood heifer calf that they say is exceptional. 

I honestly haven't seen much variation, if the cows that you start with are all pretty uniform. Yes, you could possibly get an occasional fluke, but that's the way with just about anything. I'll go as far to say that the Lowline offspring, & their offspring, are as consistent as anything that I've seen. And I've been around several breeds. Probably because the whole Lowline breed is very closely related, and more or less line-bred. I think that line-breeding, or a real close variation, is the key to consistency, IMHO.


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## shortstuff

ArmyDoc said:


> I think lowlines make sense for the homesteader raising beef for themselves, and for those who have developed a direct market program. But I understand they will be docked severely at auction if sold as commercial animals.
> 
> From what I've been able to gather, from FS 3-5 you are right in the right ball park for what the commercial / feed lot market is looking for. Smaller or larger, and you start getting docked... may change in the future, and probably should, but that's the way it is right now.
> 
> Based on that, I think I'm going to shoot for an average herd size of 3.5


Severely docked? ??? Maybe if you are selling fullblood Lowline steers, but not the 1/2 bloods. FYI, I sold a 1/2 Lowline steer at auction. 11 Months old, weighed almost 700 lbs. Grossed $749 & some change. 

The bull that Steve O mentioned weighed 1,465 lbs. & measured 48.5 inches tall at 40 months. If you see him in person, like I have, you will instantly see that he has a lot more depth & natural thickness than that FS 3.5 bull... a lot more. I've seen several herds that have used him & he will constantly sires calves that are frame 3-5 & out of frame 6 & 7 cows & they look like peas in a pod. He will also sire 1,000+ lb. 1/2 blood grass fed steers. 

Below is a daughter of Doc Holliday, out of a frame 6 something Tarentaise cow. She's right around a year old in the picture & probably a frame 4 something. Not every Lowline bull will sire calves like this one, but Doc Holliday will do it consistently. Give me a whole herd of heifers & sires just like this one & I will be very happy.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,

It was our pleasure to have you and yours visit! Hopefully you will find the trip justifiable. After your departure there were several things that came to mind that I wish we had reviewed or gone into greater detail. For those that have not visited and when time permits would you summarize what you saw and elaborate. In my opinion it would be nice to have an outsider to comment and to criticize. This is a learning experience for all of us and I remain open to inputs. Thanks, agman.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, it was definitely worth our time visiting your place. My husband, who was a city boy, had tried to figure out what I'm planning--all he could see was the WORK end of things. He'd seen some of the pictures, but not the "big picture." But now he gets it, and can see the benefits.

I am so grateful for the effort and time you've spent answering my, and other HTers questions. Now that I've been there, I see the successful operation you've built from the ground up. And I know that our place can get there, too, in time.

Here are my observations:

You've got a compliant herd, with the proper frame size--very healthy, large gutted, and very satisfied with their forage selection. They'd eaten down the forage in "yesterday's" paddock and were patiently cooling their heels in the shade waiting. Your "gate"--the pvc pipe--works wonderfully, and the cows moved to the new paddock within 2 minutes, even though 2 strangers were standing in the middle of things. They went to the new area eagerly as if they'd not just had the same offering the day before.

The paddock that had been grazed was down around 3 inches with only taller sprigs standing where the cow pies had most recently fallen. I didn't measure, but just guessing, the forage in the new paddock was standing between 10 and 12 inches??

Your lane allows you to drive any equipment through the farm without crushing forage in the paddocks, but still offers grazing for the herd as they move.

Your fences are straight, with rectangular paddocks--as advertised.  And you demonstrated the ease of moving across the high tensile without the use of traditional gates. Also, the tricks you've worked out for installing the fence lines, like the extra twist on the hairpins to keep them on the high tensile--so they won't fling off if a deer hits the fence; tying the high tensile on the end posts at the ground to indicate where to put in your line posts helps keep the fence straight; looping a second time around insulators for strength... 

I'm sure there are quite a few things I've left out. But one thing I want to impress on everybody is the ease of the actual working of your system. You're right that IT CAN BE DONE--and once the fences are up and the water available, it can be done pretty simply with a minimum of effort! 

I do have more questions of course, but I'll wait until probably tonight to post them.

Thanks again, for everything!


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## CBinTexas

I have two questions of agmantoo regarding the fencing. First off, how do you remove the pins on the fencing without de-energizing the fence every time or is that what you do?
Second, also has to do with energizing the fence, this time the cross fence. Can you show in detail how you connect the stationary end of the poly wire and then how you anchor the reel at the other end so it doesn't fall down and ground out the whole fence. And all this without getting electrified yourself?
Thanks
CBinTexas


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## godsgapeach

Welcome to the thread, CB. I did take a pic of Agman's cross fence connection with the polywire, but it isn't clear enough to post--_I_ know what it is, but it's too fuzzy to be helpful.


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## wstevenl

I'd also like to know how Agmantoo gets his wire secured with the reels that he uses.
The option that we've chosen to go with is to use reels that are made for polywire/tape. They have an insulated handle, a ratchet-like device to keep them tight, a hook to hang them on the fence, and some are geared with a 3:1 ratio so that they will wind up as fast as you can walk. We have two non geared reels made by Gallagher and one geared reel from O-Brien. I've found that it's best to buy online because the local stores have quite an up charge on them. 
I've got one 200' length of polywire on an old bobbin from welding wire and it makes it feel totally worth the cost of buying a real reel to use. My wife had to move the cows one day when I had been using this "low cost method" and she got frustrated and tried to just gather the polywire like a rope on her arm instead of taking the time to reel it onto the bobbin with no handles.... it took me 2 hours to get the polywire untangled! lol 

Also, if you're going to use the step in posts that are all plastic and have clips going down the sides, find good quality ones. Powerflex has some that are nice, you can bend them over and they pop back into shape but the ones at the farm stores break and loose the clips pretty quickly.


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## godsgapeach

Hey, Agman, I found one of those seeders you showed us on craigslist--it's WAY closer to you though. Might just have to come back and bring Daddy...


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## agmantoo

CBinTexas



CBinTexas said:


> I have two questions of agmantoo regarding the fencing. First off, how do you remove the pins on the fencing without de-energizing the fence every time or is that what you do?
> 
> Normally I turn the fence off in order to access the main tool shed. The cattle will not test the fence if it is only off for a few hours. However, the pliers that I work the high tensile wire are on the 4 wheeler and the pliers are insulated. I can and do work the fence hot on occasion.
> 
> 
> Second, also has to do with energizing the fence, this time the cross fence. Can you show in detail how you connect the stationary end of the poly wire and then how you anchor the reel at the other end so it doesn't fall down and ground out the whole fence. And all this without getting electrified yourself?
> Thanks
> CBinTexas


I will have to get you a pic with the cellphone. What I do is super simple but hard to explain in a few words.


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
When I get the pics you will see the easy method I use with the cheap extension cord reels from Lowe's. The Lowe's reels do not need the gears as the core is larger and I can reel the poly in as fast as I can walk. The Lowe's reel is also all plastic so it is insulated. These reels last a long time for the $6 price. I have 3 to 4 reels in use most of the time. In approximately 4 years I have had one to break. They do fade from sunlight but that doesn't seem to weaken them. It may be a couple of days until I get the pics as I am busy with another project.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
The seeder in Yadkinville is not the same one if that is what you saw.


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## agmantoo

CBinTexas
here is 1/2 of your questions answer
On the reel end .....To begin with I place the reel over the nearest fiber glass/PVC post and I take the loose end of the polywire and walk across the paddock. ( I hate to admit it but I use to carry the reel and have the loose end tied to the fiberglass/pvc post and carry the step in posts with me. It was a handful. Finally I got smarter and started putting the reel over the post and pulling the loose end and just carrying the stepin posts. I have not gotten the pic of the loose end fastened to the permanent paddock wire yet.) Anyway, I affix the loose end and use the polywire just pulled across the paddock to align the stepin posts as I backtrack. When I get back to the starting point I wrap the reel 6 to 8 times around the permanent paddock wire. This wrapping is done to enhance the conductivity of the polywire to carry the voltage that is on the permanent paddock wire. I then place the Lowe's sourced reel over the fiberglass/PVC post with the crank knob down. Doing so prevents the reel from turning as the crank knob will hang against the permanent paddock wire. To take up any slack that is created by manipulating the reel, I then use one of the stepin post and offset it to create tension on the polywire used to create the area allocated for grazing for the next 24 hours. Here is a pic of the wrap and the tension.








This pic should show you the reel stored over the posts


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## CBinTexas

Okay, that helps. Thanks for the pictures.
CB


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## godsgapeach

Ok, Agman. When you have time, I've got more questions--cows and fencing (basics probably).

1) How did you and your herd come to the "arm's length" agreement? I'm just wondering what it took to get everybody to sign the contract.

2) About how many heifers do you keep per year? Or how often do you keep any and your criteria for keeping them?

3) When making corners with the high tensile, you always tie off and then start the turn with a new tie off, right?

4) Is it only at the end posts (which will be wood, in my case) that you need the insulators?

5) When we were talking about dropping the wire down for the litter trucks and such to pass over, didn't you say to just pin it in place at the bottom? So I'd have to drill 2 holes--one at 34ish inches, and one at ground height in the powerflex posts we've mentioned. Right?

6) For the little post driver you made, what diameter pipe was that? Or about how much bigger than your line posts?

7) About how much weight is on your little driller for the step ins. I know you said it wasn't quite enough and I want one a bit heavier. 

And a few pic requests, again whenever it's convenient--I know how valuable your time is! 

A) A pic from where we parked down into your paddocks. I think everybody would be amazed at the forage you've got available right now.

B) A pic of your post drivers and the tool you made to pre-drill for the step-ins. I have a feeling I'm going to need that "driller" once the rain stops and the ground gets like concrete. 

Many thanks!


----------



## agmantoo

godsgapeach said:


> Ok, Agman. When you have time, I've got more questions--cows and fencing (basics probably).
> 
> 1) How did you and your herd come to the "arm's length" agreement? I'm just wondering what it took to get everybody to sign the contract.
> Answer......I carried a small switch and if the cow did not move I tapped her with the switch. If the cow was skitish I just calmly spoke to her as I passed and let her know I meant no harm. Over time they adjusted to me having the right of way and realized I was not going to hurt them.
> 
> 2) About how many heifers do you keep per year? Or how often do you keep any and your criteria for keeping them?
> Answer......I keep about 10% of the number of cows I have. That is enough to keep the herd at a constant size while still culling heavily. I will be culling both the heifers kept and the old, the infirm or non fertile.
> 
> 3) When making corners with the high tensile, you always tie off and then start the turn with a new tie off, right?
> Answer......In recent years yes. I also use the crimp connectors to jumper the corners for the electric charge to connect the wires.
> 
> 4) Is it only at the end posts (which will be wood, in my case) that you need the insulators?
> Answer....That is correct. You may have seen the ratchet for tightening the fence near an end of a run. If the wire to be tightened is 600 feet or longer put the ratchet in the middle of the run.
> 
> 5) When we were talking about dropping the wire down for the litter trucks and such to pass over, didn't you say to just pin it in place at the bottom? So I'd have to drill 2 holes--one at 34ish inches, and one at ground height in the powerflex posts we've mentioned. Right?
> Answer, in your case with the post not being drilled that would be required. However you could avoid the drilling if you will take the hairpins out of additional adjacent posts and use the stepin posts to anchor the wire to the ground.
> 
> 6) For the little post driver you made, what diameter pipe was that? Or about how much bigger than your line posts?
> Answer.....The tubing is about a 1/4 inch larger than the post. You just need enough clearance for the pipe /tubing to slide freely.
> 
> 7) About how much weight is on your little driller for the step ins. I know you said it wasn't quite enough and I want one a bit heavier.
> Answer......I have abandoned that method, I now use a Dewalt battery drill and a masonry bit that is slightly smaller than the outer diameter of the stepin posts. The stepin posts are two differents sizes so match whichever ones you use. The Lowe's posts are the better ones IMO.
> 
> And a few pic requests, again whenever it's convenient--I know how valuable your time is!
> Answer.....will do that but I have already started clipping the tops to keep the grass from going to seed.
> 
> A) A pic from where we parked down into your paddocks. I think everybody would be amazed at the forage you've got available right now.
> 
> Answer, Will do.
> 
> B) A pic of your post drivers and the tool you made to pre-drill for the step-ins. I have a feeling I'm going to need that "driller" once the rain stops and the ground gets like concrete.
> 
> Answer...Will do.
> 
> Many thanks!


How is the bull? Is he with the herd?


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## godsgapeach

As always, I appreciate it!

As for the bull, yes he's out and about and seems very happy. It's funny--so far, no matter what time of day I see him, he's grazing. I haven't seen him laying down yet! Daddy had actually tried to call me about 2:30 Saturday afternoon to tell me that he let him out because there was no shade on the lot and it was around 85 degrees. When I called him back after we'd left your place, he said the bull was back up at the gate waiting to be let in. He let him out during the heat of the day and then put him back up at night. But Tuesday I told him we ought to just let him stay out and he's been just fine. 

He's really shedding that coat and I'll take another pic when he's good and sleek. Did you want to see the rear view too? I can't remember...

Take care!


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## godsgapeach

Forgot to mention--the other bull we were looking at so closely went for the same we paid for this one. So again, I think we did pretty well! 

Pharo has posted the prices online in their catalog if you're interested.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
I managed to get some cellphone pics this evening and I now have them on the computer. I am going to bore everyone with more pics than they probably want to see. This photo shows how much grow we have gotten just recently.








Here is the herd munching away. I am wanting them to eat the grass very low as I have new growth clover near ground level that is getting choked out by the grass.








This is the view to the east from where we parked, I have already mowed the tops off of the south view.


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## godsgapeach

Everybody's going to be JEALOUS!


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## agmantoo

CBinTexas
Here is the answer to the remaining half of you question. This is how the loose end of the polywire is affixed. As the pic shows I wrap the polytwine around the high tensile wire to get good electrical conductivity.


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## CBinTexas

agman,
How do you do that without getting lit up while you are tying that knot and all the way back to the other end of the polywire?
Seems to me you have to have a pretty good hold on the standing part of the polywire to get all those wraps in. Guess I'm not as immune to electricity as some folks.
cb


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## wstevenl

yeah, why not just use one of those cheap little plastic handle/hooks? I'm using one on one of my reels, it's nice but I like the spring handles that conduct better because then I can hang on my fancy reel ;-) and not have to connect the polywire to the high tensile. 

So Agmantoo, do you just turn off the power before you enter the field? or do you have switches? I can't even get myself to touch the fence after turning off a switch, I've got to see that the power chord is unplugged in the barn! lol I've been popped too many times and usually it's HARD. 

I've got some orchard grass and fescue that's seeding out and I was wondering if those seeds are viable right away or do they need to be visible for more than a couple days to get pollinated??? Just wondering if the grass getting trampled right now will be helping to reseed any? Same for the clover, does the bloom need to get to the stage of being all dried out? 

I'll try to get some of my own pictures up but I'm VERY happy with my pasture in it's second year!!! We're grazing heavy enough that quite a bit is getting trampled and the manure is covering each paddock pretty well. It's all growing back very well now that the spring rains have started back up. The cover of clover is crazy! I just hope it doesn't hold the grass back. The alfalfa continues to do very well too. It's pretty exciting to see it work. I told a co-working yesterday that I was doing "extreme grazing". :rock:


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
I do not used the plastic handles with the hook because I permit the calves to graze ahead of the herd and I do not want the risk of the polytwine coming unhooked from the fence when the calves accidently hit the polywire. I also want the small fine strains of the wire in the polywire to make maximum contact with the high tensile wire in order to get the best conductivity for the electricity that is traveling the polywire. Often I am over 3/4ths of a mile from the charger and I need the wires to be hot..

The grass and clover seed need to ripen and to be dry in order to save them for future planting. The trampled green seed will mold and perish. When I harvest grass seed I have to aerate them for several days in order to get them dry enough to save.

You will get more benefit and longer grazing periods of the forage if you will limit the animals to their needs and not let them trample and manure the excess. It will be necessary to clip the seed heads in order to prevent the forage from fulfilling its life cycle. The clipping will prolong the the forage staying green as the plants will attempt to make another seed head. In so doing you should be able to expand your grazing period well into the summer. As July arrives, I cease to clip and start to let some of the grasses stockpile in anticipation of dry weather from mid July through August.

Are you mechanically distributing the manure as the cattle finish a paddock?


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## agmantoo

CBinTexas

Most of the time I disconnect the wire that makes the entire fence hot. I have a wire from the charger that feeds the main entrance that acts as a gate. 

However, I can and do work the fence hot with no problem. Any polywire that is strung across the paddock will be disconnected from the charger by removing the reel from the hot side of the metal fence and placing the reel back on the fence post without making electrical connection. Then I simply put the total nonconductive reel with the polywire that I am going to install on top of the fence post and pull the polywire across the paddock to the opposite wire fence. The opposite wire fence will not be hot having done the above. I tie the polywire as shown in the pic and return to the reel side and install the reels to the hot wire with the fence hot. Since the reel is nonconductive there will be no shock. If you need to touch the wire and you think it is hot lean back so only your heels are support yourself and with one hand swipe over the the fence several times until you get a mild shock or no shock. Your shoe heels are much more of an insulator and you will have less ground contact thus resulting in less shock. Sometimes you just have to "cowboy up!" and get the job done.


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## wstevenl

qAgmantoo, I was not aware that one side of your high tensile fence was not powered, that explains it. So it is actually powered by your polywire? My calves also go under our wire but I've only had the hooks knocked off once or twice and never in a regular, single day paddock, always by the barn or something that was more long term, over winter, etc. 

I'm not doing anything to the manure, most has been stepped in a few times and it's distributed all over the paddock, not usually concentrated in any one spot.
Here is a bunch of pictures, all in order of time showing what the pasture looked like, how it looked after grazing, and how it looks this week.
This picture (edit: I left off the early picture and will add it later) is from the beginning of the spring, when growth was just starting. Last year we didn't get the seed in the ground until April 17th so it had been about 10.5 months or so since it was drilled. We are very heavy on the alfalfa, and didn't plan it this way, but it seems to be working. On the regrowth it seems that the grass is coming it more and the alfalfa a little slower.... it will be interesting to see the change in a couple of years. 
























This is the day after I moved the cows and with a little rain and time it really recovers. 








I took this picture while rounding up one of our steers that I had taken to the barn for a few days. He didn't want to follow me when he had all this nice regrowth to stop and eat. 
This grass is ready to graze now, if we had to, but we probably won't get to it for 30 days or more.


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
The forage looks great! There are many seasoned cattlemen that cannot produce a pasture that looks that good. You should be proud of your accomplishment.
I am going to make two recommendations. Scatter the manure. If you do not the cattle will graze around the pats and the forage will not be uniform from the nutrients in the manure not being uniformly dispersed.
You see the drill pattern in the after grazed paddock? It is for this reason that I do not like to drill. I prefer to broadcast and to not have the defined rows. The gaps are great for letting weeds get started. It takes a long time for the plants to grow into the row centers. Consider letting the cattle walk some seed into the area between the drilled rows. Do you have a small broadcast seeder? If not look at those made by Herd. The Herd unit is great for seeding small seed. The setting of the amount of seed to be sow is a bit annoying but it is a good seeder. I suggest you do some research on Red River Crab Grass. Now is the time to plant it. The RRCG could carry you through the hot dry months. Once established it is with you from now on.
Let me reiterate, you have done a great job on getting the system going in a short time and you should see great benefits.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for sharing, wstevenl. Everything looks great!


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## wstevenl

Agmantoo,
Thanks for the compliments. I too am pretty upset with the drill lines. In the future do you think we would want to broadcast and then use a culti-packer or something to press the seed into the ground or drag the ground? We have been broadcasting orchard, timothy, and rye grass at different times to try and fill in some of that bare stuff. In alot of places the clover is filling it in very well. 
We don't own a 4-wheeler or tractor so distributing the manure would be pretty burdensome. If it became a big problem I guess we would have to find a way to do it. Right now it seems that the dung beetles are really starting to work well. Many many of the cow paddies were nothing more than a shell and the inside was ether hollow or full of dirt because the dung beetles have had their way with them. I walked the pasture yesterday and there was alot of seedlings coming up, I believe from what I saw last year that these are both crabgrass and foxtail. Do you know if crabgrass that is volunteer is comparable to RRCG?


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## ramiller5675

wstevenl, There is some information about crabgrass and RRCG available online at:

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Forage/Crabgrass4Forage/index.html 

It includes a section about management of volunteer stands of crabgrass and just about everything else anybody would care to know about crabgrass and its management in the links on the left hand side of the page.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> CBinTexas
> 
> Most of the time I disconnect the wire that makes the entire fence hot. I have a wire from the charger that feeds the main entrance that acts as a gate.
> 
> However, I can and do work the fence hot with no problem. Any polywire that is strung across the paddock will be disconnected from the charger by removing the reel from the hot side of the metal fence and placing the reel back on the fence post without making electrical connection. Then I simply put the total nonconductive reel with the polywire that I am going to install on top of the fence post and pull the polywire across the paddock to the opposite wire fence. The opposite wire fence will not be hot having done the above. I tie the polywire as shown in the pic and return to the reel side and install the reels to the hot wire with the fence hot. Since the reel is nonconductive there will be no shock. If you need to touch the wire and you think it is hot lean back so only your heels are support yourself and with one hand swipe over the the fence several times until you get a mild shock or no shock. Your shoe heels are much more of an insulator and you will have less ground contact thus resulting in less shock. Sometimes you just have to "cowboy up!" and get the job done.


Not sure I'm following you. Is one side of the paddock hot, and the other side not hot until you connect it with the polywire?


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc,
Due to the distance to some of the back paddocks I just use one side of the lane or one side of the single wire paddock to get power to the area being grazed. I then use the polywire to power the other side. Since I have a polywire behind and ahead of the herd the four sides of the paddock are hot. I also use polywire to partition the lane off in the same manner to get the cattle to water. Your statement above is correct.


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## ArmyDoc

Thanks. I would have never thought of doing it that way, but it makes perfect sense - easier to route power the high tension wires and a lot easier to move the poly wires, and most importantly, the area you are most interested in is powered. Thanks again.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I'm looking at the Parmak chargers. http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/search_results.asp?CID=2&mscssid=AB5SKV7MPVLP8G3L6S28AEVWKU8RA6W9&keywords=Parmak&cmkw=Parmak

I'm wondering if the SE-4 Supercharger is sufficient with a supposed 50 mile range. I was also looking at the RM-1 but just saw that it's for indoor installation--we could swing that but it would be more difficult. 

Basically I want to know if the SE-4 would deliver a significant enough POP or if I need more bang 

Thanks!


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## Trisha in WA

wstevenl said:


> Agmantoo,
> We don't own a 4-wheeler or tractor so distributing the manure would be pretty burdensome.


Have you considered at all following your cows with a flock of chickens...ala Joel Salatin style? I realize that may not be part of your over all plan, but they do a fantastic job of scratching out the cow pats.
Just a thought.
Trisha


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> CBinTexas
> Here is the answer to the remaining half of you question. This is how the loose end of the polywire is affixed. As the pic shows I wrap the polytwine around the high tensile wire to get good electrical conductivity.


Agmantoo

A bunch of questions for you

1) Assuming that my perimeter was polywire also would the same wrapping technique make a good enough electrical connection between the perimeter polywire and the dividing polywire?

2) How many times can this type of polyrope be tied this way before the internal wires start to break? Do you just trim off the last couple of feet every once in a while to prevent prblems with that?

3) I'm getting set up with paddocks for 2 cows. I have wood posts driven at the perimeter of the field with no provision for a lane. I figured I'd divide things up internally later if necessary but for now use steel posts temporarily. My one field is about 128 ft wide and 275 feet long. If I divide up the field the narrow direction I probably only need a few feet of grass a day. I think I would be better dividing into more squarish segments so the cattle have room to move between the front and rear sections of the wire. Could you suggest a clever and simple way to divide this into sub paddocks that would suit two cows and be easy to change the ropes daily without having numerous reels out there. I think I'm overthinking this a bit and I could use the help of someone who's thought and lived with this kind of thing for a while. I know you'd give a better answer if you know more but I'd say my grass is pretty good and is about shin high right now and I plan to move my water daily with the cattle.

Thanks

Ed


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## wstevenl

We do have hens in the pasture. Last year we had them moving behind the cows a little better than this year, so far....
The hens tend to want to return to the barn so we're trying to enclose them with electric netting and move them every 5-7 days... after a while they may choose to stay near their chicken tractor without the netting. That would make things easier to manage. When the cows get back to the barn to start rotation #2, we'll be trying to follow them again. Also, we only have about 30 pullets and 12 hens. They would work better if there was a couple hundred in an eggmobile like Salatins... again, we would need a tractor to move it. :-(


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## wstevenl

Ed,
On using polywire for the permanent lines also.... I wouldn't. It tends to stretch and get loose over time so it works well where you move it often, but other than that, I would use High Tensile wire. 
I too wonder if the wires wear out where they are being wrapped and tied. 
Steven


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## agmantoo

Ed K
As wstevenl stated, you need the high tensile wire on the permanent portion of the fence.

The polywire can be tied off in the manner above at least 50 to 60 times before the small wires start to break. I know I get more than a couple of months use out of the ends. When it starts to break I cut 18 to 20 inches off the end.

Ed, I would just not move the polywire that prevents back grazing as close to the cattle. Once you get underway with the grazing, I would just keep the bach grazing ploywire two to three days behind the cattle. This would give the cattle more area to move around. As long as you provide enough area of fresh grass the cattle will not graze the area they had the day before. Having cattle on the same ground for up to 3 days is not a problem. Just do not leave them a longer duration. You will have more grass than you ever expect.


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## agmantoo

wstevenl 
You need to be locating a tractor along with a drag harrow and a mower. The drag harrow will let you distribute the manure so all the plants will share in the nutrients. If you do not do this you will soon see very dark green and very light green areas in the forage. The very dark will grow but the cattle will be reluctant to eat it due to the manure smell that will prevail. They will graze the light green but since that area is lacking in nutrient it will be poor quality feed. As the pasture gets segmented with the very rich patches and the not so rich patches weeds will start to get a foothold particularly in between the drill rows. The cattle will not eat some weeds and those weeds will start to flourish and go to seed since you cannot cut them to prevent their going to seed


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> Ed K
> As wstevenl stated, you need the high tensile wire on the permanent portion of the fence.
> 
> The polywire can be tied off in the manner above at least 50 to 60 times before the small wires start to break. I know I get more than a couple of months use out of the ends. When it starts to break I cut 18 to 20 inches off the end.
> 
> Ed, I would just not move the polywire that prevents back grazing as close to the cattle. Once you get underway with the grazing, I would just keep the bach grazing ploywire two to three days behind the cattle. This would give the cattle more area to move around. As long as you provide enough area of fresh grass the cattle will not graze the area they had the day before. Having cattle on the same ground for up to 3 days is not a problem. Just do not leave them a longer duration. You will have more grass than you ever expect.



AG. Ok you answered my question about giving them space by lagging the backwire but are you saying that you would reccomend that for even as few as 2 cows I would strip graze with my front and back moving wires in the 128 ft dimension only advancing the front wire a few feet as necessary or two rather than trying to subdivide the width into 3 more rectangular sections of roughly 40 ft wide. If so that would certainly be simpler. When I thought of how to divide thge width and still advance the cattle it got a little confusing when I get to the end how do I move them forward but If I go with one wide trip that sure makes it easier for my pea brain to figure out. 

Thanks

Ed


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## Ed K

wstevenl said:


> Ed,
> On using polywire for the permanent lines also.... I wouldn't. It tends to stretch and get loose over time so it works well where you move it often, but other than that, I would use High Tensile wire.
> I too wonder if the wires wear out where they are being wrapped and tied.
> Steven


Wstevenl,

I wasn't thinking of any of my fence as permanent so that's why I was wanting to use polywire everywhere. My front pasture and my back pasture are separate from each other so when the cattle are in fron I would set up there and when in the back all the wire would be removed. The idea being to give the deer and my kids a place to move around in when that area is not in use. When in a certain area I was thinking of setting up the perimeter as stationary and just advancing the cross wire.

Thanks


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## Hogleg

Agmantoo,

What does your drag harrow look like? How do you drag the pasture without ripping up the grass? Don't the cows have to graze it down to 3-6in to be effective? I don't have enough cows yet and my pasture is knee high with mostly clover and some orchard grass. With all this rain, the clover is taking over, and we just mowed it 10 days ago.

BTW, outstanding thread, I am learning so much!

John


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## CBinTexas

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc,
> Due to the distance to some of the back paddocks I just use one side of the lane or one side of the single wire paddock to get power to the area being grazed. I then use the polywire to power the other side. Since I have a polywire behind and ahead of the herd the four sides of the paddock are hot. I also use polywire to partition the lane off in the same manner to get the cattle to water. Your statement above is correct.


Now I'm really confused since you have up to three polywires across the paddock at any time, which one powers the "other side"? Can you provide a simple line drawing showing the setup and where the "input" connection is?
Thanks,
CB


----------



## ArmyDoc

CBinTexas said:


> Now I'm really confused since you have up to three polywires across the paddock at any time, which one powers the "other side"? Can you provide a simple line drawing showing the setup and where the "input" connection is?
> Thanks,
> CB


All three poly wires will provide power the other side. Any connection between the "hot" side and the "cold" side will serve to energise the "cold" side. I don't have any personal experience, but I think I understand what he's doing. Here's a crude illustration. The Current pasture is on left, with cows in it (c's) and next days pasture is beside it
The B represents the back polywire, the F is the front polywire. The N is the next days front poly wire. 

...current......next
..pasture....pasture
B........... F............N
___________________________________ hot side
| ...c c.... |...........|
|. c c c... |...........|
|________|_______|__________________ cold side

The next day it would look like this, after letting the cattle in to the next paddock by temporarily opening the front line, the putting it back up behind the cows and moving the old back line up to the next days position.

................current......next
................pasture....pasture
..............B........... F............N
___________________________________ hot side
..............| ...c c.... |...........|
..............|. c c c... |...........|
_________|________|_______|_________ cold side



What I don't know is how he moves the lines. My guess is that he un hooks the N and B from the hot side, but leaves them up on the post, just not connected to the hot wire. Then I'm guessing he unhooks the F line to open it and let the cows move forward, and hangs on the post, again not connected to the hot side yet. Then he rolls up the old B line (making the old F line become the B line) and moves it up to become the new N line. Once it's in place, he reconnects all three to the hot wire to energise the paddocks. This allows him to handle the end without a non-conductive roll and attatch it to the cold side without getting shocked, and then use the non conductive roller to handle the other end when hooking it back up to the hot side.

Agman, how'd I do?

PS - sorry about all the dots. The board won't post the spaces, so without them nothing lines up right. Maybe we can pretent the dots are grass...


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## agmantoo

CBinTexas
This is an easy answer. All 3 are hot! I can work the polywires by determining whether I make them connect to the hot side or if I just pull the polywire across the paddock area and not connect the polywire to the hot wire and instead just place the reel over the post without connecting the polywire to the hot high tensile wire. I can have all hot or all not hot depending on how the wires are affixed to the hot permanent paddock high tensile wire. I cannot have a mix of hot and not hot polywires if I do the tie off to the main permanent high tensile wire on the off side from the hot permanent high tensile wire as the power will feed around the paddock.


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## wstevenl

I'm getting a kick out of this... it's like, who's on second... lol

I prefer to just handle all the wires as if they are hot all the time, using handles, a reel, a step in post, or my boot. lol

But, for some people it's not worth 40 bucks for a reel and handle.

I noticed someone down the road here put in high tensile and a bunch of polywire dividing fences with white step in posts (every 15 foot or so... way too close in my opinion) but they have their paddocks big enough that the cows are not mowing it off, they have grass eaten all the way down and other grass that is seeded out. I'm tempted to stop and strike up a conversation because i can tell what they are trying to do.. it's just not working yet. 
Now that I think about it, I have no idea how their cows are getting water, lol.


----------



## CBinTexas

agmantoo said:


> CBinTexas
> This is an easy answer. All 3 are hot! I can work the polywires by determining whether I make them connect to the hot side or if I just pull the polywire across the paddock area and not connect the polywire to the hot wire and instead just place the reel over the post without connecting the polywire to the hot high tensile wire. I can have all hot or all not hot depending on how the wires are affixed to the hot permanent paddock high tensile wire. I cannot have a mix of hot and not hot polywires if I do the tie off to the main permanent high tensile wire on the off side from the hot permanent high tensile wire as the power will feed around the paddock.


So is ArmyDoc correct then? (thanks ArmyDoc) You de-energize all three cross polywires (which also de-energizes the opposite side permanent wire) before working on the back one and bringing it up to become the new front wire? Sounds plausible to me and thanks for the pictures.
One more question, Do you de-energize the whole system before using the pvc pipe gate? Seems like you would have to or only use it on the non-energized high tensile wire.
I know, I'm obtuse but I've also been bitten by hotwires before and don't care to repeat the process.
CB


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc is right on!
On the pvc pipe "gate" I work it hot. I do this by using the same insulated pliers that I use for working the high tensile wire.
Do realize that most of the time I disconnect the energerizer as I pass thru the "gate" at the rental house into the pasture area. My cattle respect the fence and I can leave it off/not hot for many hours before they will test the fence. I had a cow today that had left her calf in tall grass when we moved yesterday. I was unaware that the calf got left behind. It had been 26 hours since we last moved. The calf and the cow remained separated for the entire time as the cow was afraid of the fence and the two day old calf could not make its way to the cow. I have to be careful of this type thing when the grass is tall, particularly if I move the herd any significant distance.


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## agmantoo

Hogleg, The harrow that I use to tear up the cow patties is a typical spike type drag harrow. It is worn out and the spikes are almost non existent. The adjustment on the angle of the spikes is set to where the spikes are virtually lying flat to the ground. I use the cross members of the angle iron to burst the piles. Very little damage is inflicted on the remaining grass and there is very little time involved in the task since I can drive rather fast. I do feel that this is a necessary task that needs done regularly.


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## CBinTexas

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc is right on!
> On the pvc pipe "gate" I work it hot. I do this by using the same insulated pliers that I use for working the high tensile wire.


Ah, you just said the magic keyword - INSULATED Pliers. This is the first time you have talked about using them for the pvc gates. And is one of my original questions (maybe not here but in my mind at least).
Thanks again for the info and pictures.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, did you happen to see my charger question on post #510?
Thanks!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
I did run right past your post regarding the fence charger. Please accept my apology. With the large area you have and the chance that you will have some weeds growing in the fence between clippings I suggest the RM-1. During the 2 year time frame while the charger is under warranty there is always the probability you are going to get a lightning hit and it will be covered. The SE-4 is covered for only 1 year. I run a surge protector and that seems to help with preventing damage coming in on the mains. If lightning hits the fence itself nothing will help. PS.....keep the box the unit comes in as a return shipping box just in case.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agman! That's kinda what I was thinking size and shock-wise, but I hadn't considered the warranty. That'll definitely make a difference. 

We always have problems around here with lightning. Any particular type of surge protector? I'll have to add that to my list.


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## agmantoo

[We always have problems around here with lightning. Any particular type of surge protector? I'll have to add that to my list.[/QUOTE]

I just buy the single circuit surge protectors at a box store.


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## Ed K

Agmantoo,

Could I bump you for a response on post #517

Thanks

Ed


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## agmantoo

EdK,
I did not thoroughly understand your request in #517 and I was thinking through your situation and with my recent involvement with another matter got side tracked. Army Doc has the layout defined in his post. I did not have a clear understanding in your post what direction you planned to move in your rectangle. In most situations I will suggest moving in the long direction and pulling the polywire the short direction. We never discussed how your animals will get water. Either you will have to take them to water or deliver water to them since you have no lane. There would be no reason that you could not allocate a lane using the polywire at the scale of your project. Just remember polywire does not work satisfactorily when snow/ice has to be contended with. Snow/ice will build on the polywire to the point the weight will take the fence to the ground.


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> EdK,
> I did not thoroughly understand your request in #517 and I was thinking through your situation and with my recent involvement with another matter got side tracked. Army Doc has the layout defined in his post. I did not have a clear understanding in your post what direction you planned to move in your rectangle. In most situations I will suggest moving in the long direction and pulling the polywire the short direction. We never discussed how your animals will get water. Either you will have to take them to water or deliver water to them since you have no lane. There would be no reason that you could not allocate a lane using the polywire at the scale of your project. Just remember polywire does not work satisfactorily when snow/ice has to be contended with. Snow/ice will build on the polywire to the point the weight will take the fence to the ground.


I understand what Army Doc is saying but my question is for just 2 cows

A) Should I set my cross wires up across the whole 128' width of the field and advance forward down the 275' length exposing only a narrow (maybe only a few feet per day strip but 128' wide?

or 
B) Subdivide the 128' width into 3 40' wide sections and advance down the 275' length that way until I reach the end and then move to the next 40' wide section and move back the length?

A) Offers the advantage of 1/3 less times I have to move the water and set up posts since my posts are currently alonng the 128 x 275 perimeter only

B) Offers the advantage of less moving around for the cattle to graze a more squarish paddock

I made a sketch to explain but I'm having trouble adding it to the post.

In either case the water will be pumped from a stream immediately to the left of the long side of the paddock. I plan to pump it to a stock tank located half in the current days paddock and half in the next to minimize water moves.

Thanks for your input

Ed


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## agmantoo

Ed K
I do plan on getting you a full reply. Is it feasible for you to set up a water source on the side nearest the creek at about center of the 275 ft run? Are you acceptable to making a lane about 10 ft wide using a single wire and the fiberglass/PVC postson the inside of the perimeter fence on the creek side? Doing these 2 things would avoid having to move the water and would give you flexibility with the allocation of forage.


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## agmantoo

Took this with the cellphone when I moved the herd this afternoon. Thought I would share.


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> Ed K
> I do plan on getting you a full reply. Is it feasible for you to set up a water source on the side nearest the creek at about center of the 275 ft run? Are you acceptable to making a lane about 10 ft wide using a single wire and the fiberglass/PVC postson the inside of the perimeter fence on the creek side? Doing these 2 things would avoid having to move the water and would give you flexibility with the allocation of forage.


Agmantoo,

Sure, I could put the water in the middle and make the lane along that side.

Thanks


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## godsgapeach

Looks great, Agman!


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## ds40

Agman that pasture really looks good. Will you bushog those seed heads off after grazing?


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## agmantoo

ds40
The cattle will eat most of the seed heads. I have a lot of fescue in the pastures and the opinion of most forage experts is that the endophyte is concentrated in the head and that the cattle should not be allowed to consume the seed heads. My cattle have a year around diet of the same grass, fescue. I have only witnessed one cow years ago that demonstrated the effects of consuming endophyte fescue. I am of the opinion that my herd has adapted to tolerating the endophyte and that there is little or no consequence. I am aware that clover or other forage interdispersed will offset the endophyte and I try to have a good forage mix if possible. Obviously, I am wanting the nitrogen contribution from the clover additionally. I will bushhog the pastures and pull the drag harrow as soon as the ground drys some. The flush of growth I currently have is a result of a lot of rain which we direly needed. A "little fellow" could get lost out here!


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## wstevenl

Agmantoo, what kind of phone tooknthose pics?


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## agmantoo

Blackberry Pearl cell phone bought new off craigslist for $75. Lots of features, solid performance and very distinct and adequate sound. Wstevenl, did you see where the college student(s) had converted a cellphone to a microscope? It would be great to have a converted one to use to check for parasites.


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## wstevenl

Well, it does take great pictures. All of my pictures, and alot of my posts come from my iPhone (love it). 
As you probably know the iPhone has apps for almost anything. I keep telling my brother in law that we should develop one for MIG grazing. One that will keep track of what paddocks where grazed on what date, with photos taken of the forage each day to correspond to date and location, etc. etc. etc....


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## ds40

Serecia is about 8" tall in Mo. Ladino is knee high. Red clover is thigh high. Fescue is coming out of the boot. Crabgrass is sprouted. Hop Clover is in the flower. Lespedeza is 2-3" stage. Cows have all they could possibly want to eat. They have been very loose stools, tightening up this week. I planted Marshall ryegrass 3 years ago in fall in bare spots and sacrifice areas it is 30" tall from carry over seed or reseeding itself. Looks great hasn't been grazed yet. These rocky ozark soils will grow a lot of pasture when it rains, dries out very quickly when it quits.


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## agmantoo

EdK
Here is my proposal for grazing the 128 x 275 ft rectangle with your livestock. The water and loafing/lane area are a permanent part of the paddock with a single high tensile wire to the interior and a permanent perimeter fence.
As you can see I have given a layout for day one, day five and day 20 grazing. By creating a funnel with the polywire at the single wire lane fence the cattle can move from the small grazing areas to access the lane to water. A PVC pipe with a V cut in one end will be used to hold the wire so the cattle can walk under the wire. If you will use the pvc/fiberglass ~ 3/4 inch diameter posts and space them on 55 ft centers you should be able to place the PVC pipe over the posts to hold the vertical pipe in place and modify the shape of the funnel to your advantage. I recommend that you leave the lanes large enough to create a comfortable size by allowing the cattle to have access to the area to be grazed and the previous 2 days grazed area. Three days on a paddock does not negatively impact the forage to any major consequence. You could broadcast some seed on the grazed area and let the cattle walk them in once the forage is eaten. If there are any questions feel free to ask. I apologize for not getting back to you earlier.


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## godsgapeach

Hey, Agman. How's your RRCG doing? Any of it up yet?


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## agmantoo

The Red River crab grass had a high rate of germination and I am getting a good stand established. The grass and clover is growing also and is somewhat suppressing the new RRCG growth. I am mowing almost daily to try to hold the growth of the established forage in check. I have been at this growing thing so long that I have come to believe that one extreme follows another. With the recent rains I expect that we will have a dry period following and I want to extend the growing season as long as possible.
How about an update of how things are progressing in Ga.?


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## godsgapeach

We've had the same deal with rain/storms here. Not much has been accomplished in the last few weeks because of it. It's been way to wet to mow! I'll walk the pastures but not even drive the gator because it'd tear things up too much. Didn't think I'd ever get the garden in. But like you, I'm fully expecting the dry spell.

I've got my list of fencing supplies made--just waiting on the boatload of cash to order  and I just today wrapped up school for the year with the kids and I'm free to get some work done--with extra help now.

The bull's doing great, too--steadily grazing and gaining.

When you get a chance or when it gets a good hold, a pic of the crab grass would be appreciated. Did you end up getting the seed by way of Elstel Farm and Seed in OK? I can't find but maybe 2 options for purchase--Elstel and somebody in Kentucky. Just wondering...

Have a great one!


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> EdK
> Here is my proposal for grazing the 128 x 275 ft rectangle with your livestock. The water and loafing/lane area are a permanent part of the paddock with a single high tensile wire to the interior and a permanent perimeter fence.
> As you can see I have given a layout for day one, day five and day 20 grazing. By creating a funnel with the polywire at the single wire lane fence the cattle can move from the small grazing areas to access the lane to water. A PVC pipe with a V cut in one end will be used to hold the wire so the cattle can walk under the wire. If you will use the pvc/fiberglass ~ 3/4 inch diameter posts and space them on 55 ft centers you should be able to place the PVC pipe over the posts to hold the vertical pipe in place and modify the shape of the funnel to your advantage. I recommend that you leave the lanes large enough to create a comfortable size by allowing the cattle to have access to the area to be grazed and the previous 2 days grazed area. Three days on a paddock does not negatively impact the forage to any major consequence. You could broadcast some seed on the grazed area and let the cattle walk them in once the forage is eaten. If there are any questions feel free to ask. I apologize for not getting back to you earlier.


Agmantoo,

Thanks for sharing your ideas. It looks extremely simple. As a complete beginner I'm sure I've been over-thinking it a bit and mentally making things harder than they need to be. My cattle will be arriving this Sunday so I can start learning from experience in addition to the reading and thinking I've been doing. This thread has been very helpful to me.


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## godsgapeach

EdK--from visiting Agman's farm I can tell you that his operation is simple in practice too. At least he makes it look easy.  I think it will be easier for you starting from scratch than for me trying to convert from the "old way" of doing things. (Certainly faster!). 

Best to you!


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## Ed K

Agmantoo,

How wide would you make the water lane for two animals?

Thanks

Ed


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## agmantoo

I would make the lane wide enough to accommodate any machinery that I would take into the paddock or not less than 10 feet.. I would also make the post that will support the gate do double duty by using the post as the support for the lane partition wire.


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## ArmyDoc

Agman, 

thanks for the diagram - I know it was for Ed K, but every time I see one that you've put together I get a better understanding of how to do this. Now Understand the funnel you were talking about.

Now if I can just get my land... The deal we were working on has fallen through, so it's back to searching again.


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## godsgapeach

Sorry your deal fell through, ArmyDoc. Hopefully you'll find the right place soon!

My brother and I went to a Farm Bill Workshop tonight just to see what they had to say. Met another couple who is interested in rotational grazing. They might stop in to see what they can learn from the thread--just to give you a heads-up Agman.


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## agmantoo

Not a problem, godsgapeach!


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## ArmyDoc

godsgapeach said:


> Sorry your deal fell through, ArmyDoc. Hopefully you'll find the right place soon!


Thanks! It'll all work out in the good Lord's timing. If He isn't in it, I don't want any part of it, so I'll just have to be patient.


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc said:


> If He isn't in it, I don't want any part of it, so I'll just have to be patient.


I'm with you there! (Patience is a struggle for me, for sure!) I'll be praying He leads you to just the right spot at just the right time.

Are you only looking in the area where you are? There's a good bit of farm land for sale in this general area...


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## agmantoo

The Spring growing season has been great and the paddock forage is getting ahead of my ability to keep the seed heads cut off. I want the seed heads removed to delay the grass going dormant in order to extend the grazing period into the heat of Summer. This trim work also is great in preventing undesirable plants from going to seed and reproducing. In order to keep the polywire real hot I have had to switch to just cutting the path were the new grazing areas are to go. This is the longest single run of polywire that I have used at about 1000 feet. This length would normally have been with a permanent wire defining the paddock but this area is adjacent to where I have been doing some major erosion earth work.


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## ArmyDoc

godsgapeach said:


> ... Are you only looking in the area where you are? There's a good bit of farm land for sale in this general area...


Yes, I've taken a job with the VA, and I need to be within 30 minutes of downtown Augusta. We're Looking for a place with 50-100 acres of pasture for me, plus a bit of "forested" acreage and a pond or potential pond site for my wife who said, "OK, I'll move to the country, but only if you get me a house where I can see the water." I suggested a pool, but apparently that isn't what she had in mind... (so now I'm going to have to get one of those too. ) 

Main problem is that the closer you are to the city the higher land prices are, and I can't be more than 30 minutes from the hospital when I'm on call. Having been in the Army my whole career, I don't have the funds I'd like to at this stage of my life... then again, who does? But I figure if we stay where we're at for a year of two I can continue to save until the right place comes along.


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## ArmyDoc

That's some incredible looking pasture Agman!


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc said:


> Yes, I've taken a job with the VA, and I need to be within 30 minutes of downtown Augusta. We're Looking for a place with 50-100 acres of pasture for me, plus a bit of "forested" acreage and a pond or potential pond site for my wife who said, "OK, I'll move to the country, but only if you get me a house where I can see the water." I suggested a pool, but apparently that isn't what she had in mind... (so now I'm going to have to get one of those too. )


I've got a friend in your area then, ArmyDoc. She's an instructor/doc at MCG--I remember her doing work at the VA during her residency. She's originally from a small town named Gough in Burke County--can't remember how far that is from downtown Augusta though. Seems like she had a friend who was trying to sell some land. I'm going to check with her and see if it's still available and fits your criteria at all. It won't hurt to ask.


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## ArmyDoc

Small world! My new job is at MCG. I'll sent you a PM and we can talk more.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach, you asked to see the Red River Crab Grass. I was on that part of the farm today and remembered your request. This picture is where I sowed on some nearly bare sandy ground created when the creek got out of bank. This area had the RRCG seed broadcast at approximately 4 lbs. per acre and I got a full stand. This picture is not typical of the total acreage that was sown. Due to the price of the seed ($8.50/lb)and realizing that I was just wanting to get the RRCG established I used a much more conservative rate on the remaining lowland acreage. I do see this reduced rate growing but it is not the dominant crop. I am however satisfied with the seed and was impressed with the level of germination. I was told that once the RRCG is established the only way to get rid of it was to move. : )


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## godsgapeach

That looks GREAT, Agman! Thanks for sharing.

I'm thinking with that much established--even where it's a minor crop--with grazing it'll spread even more. Am I wrong?

RRCG seed are on my "wish list."


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## Allen W

agmantoo you will have the crabgrass only if you let it make seed. I'm sure you know that crabgass is an annual, but some people don't.


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## agmantoo

I have been promoting the use of rectangular paddocks for the ease of use for moving cattle and maintaining the grazing areas. Here is yesterdays allocation and the herd. I took time to verify the area being grazed and it comes to 43,200 ft. On this parcel the grass is fair and the legumes are rather good. There is a lot of fescue stem but not a lot of leaf. This paddock met the feed intake for over a 24 hour period for the herd which I estimate weighs in excess of 122,500 lbs.. From the distance the pic was taken this will give an idea of what the animal density looks like with approximately 100 mature cattle and their varying age offspring born in the last 7 to 8 months.


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## agmantoo

Allen W
Thanks for the reminder on leaving the Red River Crab grass alone because of its need to reseed itself. My current plans are to watch the RRCG closely to determine when it has produced seed and then wait not less than 30 days before starting to graze the area. I intend to clip the competing forage again within the next couple of weeks to give the RRCG less competition and to possibly encourage the growth of the RRCG. This should work timely as I will be seeding Marshall rye grass to the area shortly thereafter following the RRCG grazing.


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## gwithrow

Hey agman, we are still trying to work a plan out here....just a side note, we bought some RRCG from Elstel seed, for 6 a pound..they were delightful to work with and we are seeing some results on what was very bare ground...we are also trying to stay ahead of the cutting...but my question is about the RRCG, should we not cut it and let it go to seed? so it will be there again next year...and how do we do that when we have sown it on the bare patches that also have fescue and other grasses all around? any suggestions for clover seed? and where do you order that? I am throwing that out as we move a couple of chicken pens in a pasture we are working on restoring....where we did this last year, the little field is amazing...feast or famine out here...the cows can not keep up with the grass...thanks for all the time you put in sharing what you know...


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## agmantoo

gwithrow, good to hear from you. With the good rains and cooler Spring we have had an abundance of grass and I understand your animals cannot keep up with the growth. Trust me that will change. As the weather heats up and we get into Summer the grasses we have will go dormant. Preparation for times of less grazing seem needless in times when we have more than grass than we can deal with. What I am doing is getting ready for July and August by not letting the existing grass go to seed and consequently dormant. I am cutting the tops off the waist high and taller surplus that now exists. Regarding the Red River Crab Grass....I am clipping the existing established forage above the height of the RRCG. I intend to monitor the RRCG and watch for when it starts to set seed. Once that happens, I plan on patiently monitoring the seed until they reach a point of maturity that I feel is satisfactory for reseeding. At that point, I will start the herd rotating onto the RRCG. Since the fescue will be dormant, I may let the cattle have access to paddocks that were previously grazed to permit the cattle to pass their manure there. This through the manure method will be the one of the methods for distributing the RRCG. The postponed grazing of the RRCG will come at a time when the forage will be truly needed. Come September in our area the cool season grasses will start to regrow and once the area for the RRCG has been grazed I will sow some Marshall ryegrass. I suggest you consider sowing some rye grass to extend your grazing period as Winter approaches and to also have a head start for 2010 grazing. Regarding the clover, at this time of year and with the price of clover seed my suggestion would be to wait until the end of August or early September and broadcast Crimson clover. I cannot recommend a source for the seed other than Southern States. You seem to have better sources than I have when it comes to buying the less common seed. : ) Crimson clover is the highest volume of clover seed sold so it should be readily available and less expensive. 15 to 20 lbs of seed per acre is the rate when grown with grass.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ... What I am doing is getting ready for July and August by not letting the existing grass go to seed and consequently dormant. I am cutting the tops off the waist high and taller surplus that now exists...


Agman, 

How do you go about doing this?


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## agmantoo

Army Doc,
If before the seed on the fescue mature they are cut off the fescue will continue to grow attempting to produce seed thus carrying the species forward. Lots of lawns here are planted to fescue and those that are irrigated and manicured usually by a grounds keeper will actually grow the entire Summer. Using a Bush hog rotary cutter set as high as it will mow, I start cutting the main stems that bear the seeds when the seeds reaches the dough stage. With the fescue remaining as tall as the mower leaves it the ground remains shaded and chokes out a lot of weeds. I use the same mower to clip the pastures after the cattle graze to aid in getting rid of weeds by preventing them from reseeding. Here is the setup. In the pic the mower is lowered because I am clipping one of the lanes that was grazed low.


----------



## ArmyDoc

I understand the concept of cutting off the seed heads, or cutting just as or slightly before the seed heads form to continue growth. But you mentioned your grass was wast high. I know you don't cut it for hay - if you want that you leave it standing. Are you saying you can set your rotary mower to cut the fesque waist high? 

The answer is probably yes and is obvious to anyone who has one... but I always thought of it as something like a big lawn mower and didn't realise it could be set higher than say 6 or 8 inches high.


----------



## agmantoo

Army Doc,
I cannot get the rotary cutter to cut waist high. Waist high is where the seed head is positioned. I am cutting at the top of the leaves, more around the knee high position. With the rotary cutter set where I have it the PTO shaft is more misaligned upward than I like. I am not satisfied with the manner the cutting leaves the paddocks but I have not found anything to give the results I am wanting. I would like to have the a tool that would result with the tops cut off and the appearance of a hay field that was cut with a disc mower. Some brands of disc mowers have skid plates to elevate the cut but nothing that will operate at the height I want to cut. I have used a flail mower but it damages the end of the leaves with a ragged edge cut.


----------



## silverbackMP

What about a hydralic powered mower mounted on a front end loader or a toolcat? Of course that is $$$$ and a much smaller mower.


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## ramiller5675

"...I would like to have the a tool that would result with the tops cut off and the appearance of a hay field..."

To me that sounds almost like how a combine or a swather would cut a field. 

Have you thought about trying something like a 3-pt mounted sickle bar mower to cut the seed heads off? 

Or, depending on how much you like to fabricate machinery, I could see buying something like an older combine with a rusted-out grain bin, stripping it down and making a purpose-built seed head cutter-offer able to cut heads off as high as you could lift the header.

Some of the older combines can even be re-powered with different engines (I think some Gleaners had Chevy engines from the factory), so a stuck or bad engine shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## agmantoo

ramiller5675
Your thoughts and mine are similar in possibly using a modified combine. I have tried a sickle mower, still own it, and the unit flops around too badly when elevated. As to the combine, getting the cut tops out the back side of the header and not in a windrow would be a challenge. I also don't like the idea of having to keep another motorized machine maintained. I sold a IH rotary combine for real cheap just so that I did not have to maintain and store it. I once saw in an Ag magazine what I remember as a sickle bar and wobble box mounted on a skeleton framework and driven hydraulically. A big obstacle is that my beef farm is rolling hills and with some terraces. These conditions make it difficult to clip with any real efficiency. The bush hog will let me cut nearly 4 acres per hour on the better ground. Right now I am pursing the idea of using a disc mower mounted on a set of tall but narrow dolly wheels. This would let me cut without having crushed the standing fescue with the tractor wheels prior to the cutting blades getting to the fescue. I could also use a smaller tractor. What are your thoughts on this last idea? Thanks


----------



## ramiller5675

agmantoo, 
I haven't really looked over a disc mower that close to understand how I would modify it, but couldn't you somehow adapt something similar to the swingarm transport wheel assembly of your rotary cutter (from a few posts back) to a disc mower?

If you extended the length of the swingarm assembly and combined it with a taller tire, you could get more height and possibly more stability at the increased height.


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## Texas Papaw

Rotational grazing books & resources 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Judy's website. You can order his books here. They are do an excellent job of explaining his rotational and mob grazing systems. 

http://greenpasturesfarm.net/

Stockman Grassfarmer site. Lots of books and other good info

http://stockmangrassfarmer.net/

Kencove fencing site. Quality fence materials with reasonable prices

http://www.kencove.com/fence/

Powerflex fence site. Another source of quality, fair priced fence material.

http://powerflexfencing.com/

Kentucy Grazers Supply. Water systems and fencing materials.

http://kygraziers.com/kgshop/


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## silverbackMP

Something like this is what I was mentioning:


http://www.rockhound.com/72F ToolCat Mower.pdf

I realise this is a small flail unit but I've seen FEL mounted brush hog attachments as well (google is not cooperating). I know bobcat makes one but as with all hydralic attachments they are spendy.


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## Allen W

Agmantoo 
The crabgrass will make seed quickly after it sends heads up, My guess would be when you can knock some out into your hand it would be viable. It should send heads back up after you have grazed it, but better safe then sorry. A little maturity shouldn't hurt the quality too much, I have baled it with wheat stubble several times and the would clean everything up.

Crabgrass generally gets took advantage of around here after wheat harvest, There has been some red river planted But generally the fields are already covered with crabgrass any way.


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## Karin L

I have a question open for anyone to answer:

What is the significance of dandelions in relation to soil fertility? Do dandelions indicate lack of a particular nutrient or do they indicate good soil?


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## Karin L

double post


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## godsgapeach

Agman, how early do you start stockpiling forage for winter?


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach, glad to hear from you, hope all is going great!
Regarding stockpiling for Winter. I have determined from previous Winters and my herd size (100 mature animals including bred heifers) that I need 270 round bales of hay and that I need to feed for not less than 90 days. This amount of hay equates to 3000 plus lbs./day. To amass the equivalent amount of stockpiled feed, I have predetermined how much of a paddock size to allocate to the herd for a 24 hour period of grazing to meet their needs. Obviously the area allocated will depend on the amount of forage that it contains. Experience is a major factor at this point of time. If the season is good and I have plenty of growth I will need 75 days of stockpiled grazing starting 1 Jan. In most years I can get some growth out of the fescue until the end of the year. I will manage the other 15 days by maximizing/regrazing the areas that were not being stockpiled. Now to answer your question. I will take a soil sample in early August. Depending on the results of the soil sample I will start the stockpiling process in late August or early September. If fertilizer is needed I will have it applied in late August. If no fertilizer is to be applied, I do very little until we start getting some rain. Once we have moisture I start the stockpiling process by restricting the herd to the non stockpiled areas. The area to be stockpiled will not be grazed at all. I want this area to reach its absolute peak growth. If the weather doesn't cooperate I will overseed some acreage in the grazed paddocks and the area to be stockpiled with Marshall rye grass as it is more cold tolerant and will grow some while the fescue is dormant. The cattle should be in good body condition going into Winter. Provided they are, their feed requirements can be rationed somewhat. If the forage available is lacking it doesn't hurt to let the animals lose some minor body condition. Most cattle on hay are fed in the same manner.


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## SteveO

Morning All,
A easy question for Agmantoo. How often can you graze the same area? You have 160 acres 100 Cow Calf combos a bull or two. and yet set 90 days worth or 25% of what you have aside for winter. So does the winter area basically get grazed twice a year the the rest two or three or?
Sorry maybe not so easy a question
Steve


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## ds40

Agman, do you stockpile different areas each year? What factors do you consider in deciding where to stockpile?


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## agmantoo

SteveO
The area stockpiled only gets grazed once during the Winter. That same area gets grazed at least a couple of times in the Spring and Summer. Coming out of Summer, I know that it will take 3000 lbs of forage per day starting about 1 Jan. I try to make do up until that date on the non stockpiled acreage.  This non stockpiled acreage can and will get grazed more than once in late Fall if there is forage available and is needed. At this point in time I try not to over graze as these areas can still grow some on days when the weather cooperative. The area to be stockpiled is set aside around late August to enable the grasses to obtain maximum growth. Once I go onto the stockpiled Winter grazing, I have the cattle to graze that for maximum utilization and minimum waste. This time the grasses could be grazed short if the forage supply is low or marginal and will be slow to respond in the Spring. In a bad year I may only have 2000 plus lbs of forage per acre and in a good year I may have 4000 plus lbs of forage. I do not waste any forage in early Winter by carefully allocating the areas to be grazed. I am totally dependent on what stockpiled forage is on the farm for the total Winter feed or I have to buy hay. Since I must have forage for the entire Winter it is in the bad years that I plant Marshall ryegrass to supplement what grass I have in the stockpiled areas. In years of plenty, I do not use anything but the fescue that I stockpiled to get through the Winter. Realize that once I start feeding the stockpiled forage, I then have the acreage that was not stockpiled as available land to plant for supplemental grazing. The acreage that was not stockpiled will get grazed 2 to 3 times in the Spring and Summer and again in the Fall. I also could apply commercial fertilizer on the available acreage and get a small boost in growth if I do that in mid to late Fall when I should have a good idea as to how the amount of stockpiled feed has accumulated.


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## agmantoo

ds40
I do have a tendency to use the same areas for stockpiling. What started this habit is the availability of water. I also set aside land that does not get as wet/muddy. Land that has been established in forage holds up better also. The cattle seem to enjoy the warmer east facing hillsides as the weather gets colder. In the most recent years I have increased the size of the paddocks with the long rectangles where I vary the size of the paddocks and I like this much better. I can and do control the amount of forage allocated for the day easily and the cattle do not move any distance to speak of. The cattle and the partition tools remain in the same general area day after day and that contributes more efficient paddock moves and on a cold windy day makes for better creature comfort on me. I can move the herd in less than 20 minutes if motivated.


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## agmantoo

Sometime back I commented that I was planting clovers in order to reduce my need for commercial fertilizer. Those clovers are now blooming and I thought I would share the view. Come late July I will submit a soil sample to determine the fertilizer needs for preparation for stockpiling forage for Winter. I am somewhat anxious to see what impact the clovers will have.


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## godsgapeach

Wow, Agman! Your thread has topped 10k views! Congrats!

That clover looks wonderful! Is that the Alice we discussed? (not Alyce) It's so full and lush!

We're doing well here with the exception of me managing to crack the big knuckle of my index finger on my right hand--makes for a weaker grip and just plain aggravating. Still slowly plodding along though. At this point I'm more realistically shooting for being functional for next spring. (not what I want but ...) 

Oh one more question concerning the mowing back (around post 573). You said about "knee-high". Can you give a measure in inches? You know my knees and yours are nowhere close. 

Hope you and yours are all well!


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## agmantoo

Sorry to hear that you have a mangled knuckle! I can sympathize having experienced similar problems in the past.
I would like to make a suggestion regarding your postponing rotational grazing until the Spring. Rather than starting in the Spring do you think you could do a startup with rotational grazing come Fall? IMO, it is more forgiving as the grass is going to go dormant but you can get some practice and build confidence while extending the grazing season much later than with conventional methods. You would need to have the pigtail posts and a couple of rolls of polywire. By improvising some partition fencing and doing some stockpiling I think we could extend the grazing not less than 30 days past what has been typical. We should get into Jan. worst case. This would conserve hay and give you some experience for the upcoming Spring. Let me know your thoughts.
PS.......Knee high is 24 inches.


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## SteveO

Evening all,
Another question for Agmantoo. When you say 3000# per day what does that equate to. In say Spring growth and then in the Clover field a few frames up. In acres or sf. i know it will be a rough guess.
Thanks
SteveO


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## agmantoo

SteveO
In Spring growth it equates to 7/10's of an acre in most years. In the clover above my best guess it would take a full acre. I try to limit the herd to clover plus grass as the clover alone, though tolerated and thus far no bloating, gives them loose, very loose waste discharge. I took some pics of the some of the different clovers. I will post a pic of them so you can see up close how big the foliage is on some of the varieties.


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## agmantoo

To minimize the commercial fertilizer requirements, I have been sowing various clovers in order to get the benefits from their nitrogen. One of the clovers was a variety named Alice. Here is a pic that I took to visually share the size of the leaves. In this pic at the top right is a plant known as black medic and about 3 o'clock is a few ladino clover plants to get a comparison. Black medic is a plant known to grow on low quality ground so the size of the Alice clover is not from some super rich soil.


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## SteveO

I think I missed something. So is your plan to mow the clover and plant a Marshall for the fall. It looks to be 10-20 acres??. It looks like having some Alice in your basic grass would be a good thing or is a annual?

Steve


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## godsgapeach

Finally getting back to your question about starting this fall, Agman. I'm definitely not throwing in the towel. I'm keeping at it and Lord willing, I'll have the rotations set up and in practice. The slowness of progress is just frustrating for me!

I'm keeping at it and I'll keep you in the loop as things move along! Right now I'm just buried in green beans--about 8 gallons worth in 3 pickings. Need some? 

By the way, I like that Washington blossom on your clover. If only they all grew like that...


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## agmantoo

Between showers as I moved the herd I had a chance to take a pic of the Alyce clover. This is the clover that I had a failure with as it was supplied initially for the Alice I ordered and I planted it too early and cold weather killed most of it. As you can probably see this clover is very long stems and rather small leaves. From my observation the cattle seem to eat both equally showing no preference.


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## agmantoo

SteveO said:


> I think I missed something. So is your plan to mow the clover and plant a Marshall for the fall. It looks to be 10-20 acres??. It looks like having some Alice in your basic grass would be a good thing or is a annual?
> 
> Steve


SteveO,
I was unclear. I do not plan on cutting the clover. When I am clipping the pasture to hold the grass from going to seed, I try to cut the tops of the grass off leaving the clovers. As the cattle are rotated over the various paddocks they consume the clovers and will continue to do so until heat or cold kills or stunts the clovers. I do want the clovers to reseed. I also plan on planting crimson clover in late August to have another variety that provides early Spring growth. IMO I perceive that I am getting lots of mileage from the assorted clovers; nitrogen build up in the soil, cattle feed and an offsetting of the endophyte in the fescue. It is my intent to have clover growing on the entire 161 of pasture. I will only plant the Marshall ryegrass provided I am lacking adequate fescue to stockpile going into cold weather. The ryegrass, if planted, will be in the paddocks that are grazed down and not the area stockpiled unless the stockpiled area is too poor to provide grazing as is.


SteveO said:


> I think I missed something. So is your plan to mow the clover and plant a Marshall for the fall. It looks to be 10-20 acres??. It looks like having some Alice in your basic grass would be a good thing or is a annual?
> 
> Steve


SteveO,
I was unclear. I do not plan on cutting the clover. When I am clipping the pasture to hold the grass from going to seed, I try to cut the tops of the grass off leaving the clovers. As the cattle are rotated over the various paddocks they consume the clovers and will continue to do so until heat or cold kills or stunts the clovers. I do want the clovers to reseed. I also plan on planting crimson clover in late August to have another variety that provides early Spring growth. IMO I perceive that I am getting lots of mileage from the assorted clovers; nitrogen build up in the soil, cattle feed and an offsetting of the endophyte in the fescue. It is my intent to have clover growing on the entire 161 of pasture. I will only plant the Marshall ryegrass provided I am lacking adequate fescue to stockpile going into cold weather. The ryegrass, if planted, will be in the paddocks that are grazed down and not the area stockpiled unless the stockpiled area is too poor to provide grazing as is.


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## Ed K

Agmantoo,

I've had my cattle for all of 21 days now. I'm learning new things every day and I really appreciate your suggestions and help. 

Here's a couple of of specifics:

The knot you showed in the picture many posts ago for tying poly rope to perimeter fence has worked great for me. I do the wraps on each side of the post and finish with a bowline. Fast easy secure and something I haven't encountered in any book so far.

The cattle arrived about 3 weeks later than I expected so the forage was quite a bit ahead of them (up to their backs). Now that they've eaten it down and I've clipped it back it's apparent that letting it get that far ahead of them shaded out a lot of low growing white clover that was available in previous years when I mowed more frequently. I'll have to learn that lesson a little better for next time. 

On day 13 I had the cattle in a small single strand enclosure while I was planning to move them to a neighboring paddock on the other side of my yard. Mama escaped. To try to coax her back in I shut the fence off and lowered one side...bad idea because the calf got out and they took off. I continued concentrating on the new paddock and when I finished an hour later the cows had vaporized. I'm in a narrow creek bottom with steep sides but they scaled the steep sides and escaped for 12 nerve wracking hours while I questioned my readiness for this project. If I had that one to do over I would have made a quick u shaped enclosure next to the calf and lured momma in, then closed the u and removed the center divider to put them back together again. The calf was calling to keep mama close before I let out the best bait I had (the calf) for keeping mom close. I'll have to learn that lesson a little better for next time. 

Anyway, thanks for the help. This project stands a pretty good chance of making me lots smarter or continuing to show me how much I don't know. 

Thanks

Ed


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## agmantoo

Ed K,
Everyday is a learning experience. With the cattle I get a lot of satisfaction knowing that they are taken care of and that they are performing as expected. I find it relaxing just watching them. I find myself redoing a number of projects in an attempt to improve my setup. Learning how to maximize the forage production remains an ongoing learning experience that tests all of us. I had some chicken litter applied this week and was really glad to get it. If I can assist you with your cattle feel free to ask.


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## agmantoo

Many of you may recall me stating that I harvest a lot of seed for my use with an antique Allis Chalmers 66 pull combine. It has been raining a lot for the last month and finally it has dried enough to get into the paddocks to harvest some fescue seed. The yield wasn't all that good as the rain had knocked a lot of the seed off. To complicate the harvest, the clover had grown so tall that I could not raise the header on the combine high enough to clear the green forage. Regardless the old machine held up and I managed to harvest a little over a thousand pound of seed in a few hours. I will broadcast these seed in newly prepared areas and in areas where the grass is thin.


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## Narshalla

Thank you for this information!


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## Allen W

Agmantoo How's the crabgrass progressing?


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## agmantoo

Narshalla,

As a contributor, you are most welcome to my portion.


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## agmantoo

Allen W,
Regarding the crabgrass. I got a rather good stand but the growth has not been uniform. Currently we have hit a dry period (no rain in 3 weeks) and the crabgrass that was last to germinate appears to have stopped growing. The first to germinate is now 2 plus feet tall and has seed that has not ripened yet. I am holding off on grazing and clipping waiting for more seed to form and to ripen as I want the crabgrass to reseed itself.


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## godsgapeach

Here's an updated pic of the bull. You can see how his coat has slicked up.









And here's a 7 month old bull from the same pasture (nice and sleek but you can tell the difference in body type).









And together


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## agmantoo

Hi, the pics certainly go a long ways in justifying the purchase and I am anxious to see the impact on the herd. My opinion has little merit. What I want to know is what the family patriarch's opinion is? Thanks for sharing the pictures. Are you folks short on rain also? My neighbors are feeding hay at this time.


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## godsgapeach

Daddy's very impressed with him, but we're ALL waiting to see the first calves next spring. As a matter of fact, Daddy's interested in Pharo's fall heifer sale too, which is pretty exciting to me.

We had about 3 weeks with not a drop of rain and temps near 100, but Tuesday we got an inch and 6/10 and yesterday another .7 of rain. It looks like it could come up another shower anytime now, and the temp is in the low 80s--quite a difference. Do you have any chance of rain in the forecast?

For the farm progress report, I've got the go ahead to order the supplies for the water line so I'm working on that, and when we've got that work done we'll jump on the fencing. I know... I'd rather do the fence first, but at least it's something!

Praying you some rain!
J


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## agmantoo

You know that I want you to go into late late Fall with stockpiled grass don't you? The cattle can walk to water it is not that far. Beginning rotational grazing come September is the optimum time for you to get started. What can I do to assist in making that happen?


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## godsgapeach

I still think that's possible. Once the goods get here we'll be diligent to get the job done. I'll be gone next week and then hopefully everything will arrive within a week after that and get started.

As always thanks for all the assistance you've already given!


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## agmantoo

We have not had rain in more than 3 weeks. The ground is getting to where it is difficult to get the pigtail posts pushed into the soil. Recently I mentioned I was clipping the grass to prevent it going to seed and thus going dormant. By not going dormant, those paddocks will provide decent grazing as the temperature goes higher and the fescue will cease to grow. Additionally, the areas clipped with not have the thatch present that the unclipped areas with have come September when the fescues start to come out of dormancy. Where I combined the seed the residue will choke out the seed that fell to the ground and there will be bare spots. The same thing will happen if the cattle are allowed to spoil the tall grass by trampling. The stems will be slow to rot and will shade the ground creating bare spots later. Here are two pics I took today, one is where I harvested seed and then rotary cut the residue. From the pic you will see that there is very little green grass for grazing since the clipping was not done timely. In the second pic is an area that was clipped to remove the seed heads and the fescue is attempting to regrow, notice the uniformity and lack of bare spaces along with the absence of weeds. These two fields are adjacent to each other. Timely clipping is a geat tool and necessary IMO!


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## godsgapeach

I see, Agman. I don't know if you can tell in the pic with the post with the most recent bull pics but that was just bushhogged last weekend and it's trying to regrow there too. You can see bits of green in there in the pic, but up close it's pretty good grazing below the dried fescue.


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## agmantoo

I did notice you have run the rotary cutter. I also did not see any persimmon sprouts. IMO you needed to lower the cutter just a bit. You do not want the stems gouging the cattle in the eye area. Doing so helps to reduce pinkeye.


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## bruce2288

Agmantoo, Your grass looks tremendous. In one photo there is virtually nothing but clovers, Iwould be concerned with bloat if I turned cattle into that. Is that ever a problem? I can see you have your system working at a VERY high level for your situation. What would be your average rainfall per year? What would be the set stocking rate in your area, If cow-calf pairs were pastured for a growing season without rotation. How many months would that be? I am in Central Nebraska, with some of the highest pasture rents in the US. 5 months May till October @160-$225/pair. I have no need to graze year round as I pasture corn stalk from OCT-March cost about $50. I am trying to get an idea of the overall production increases with your system and try to get an idea of how it would translate here. My rain fall is about 21 inches/ year. I rotate my home pastures. About 140 acres divided into 7 pastures. i am planning to splitting each in half as this can be done without additional water supplies. Let me say again, I am immpressed with your production of grass and beef and also the time you have taken to help others. Concerning cow size, I am also downsizeing the cows I keep at home. On rented grass, I rent pasture for 60 cows, it does not make sense, Most landlords want a price/pair and a set number of cows. I calf in April-May and have to pay the same as guys who calf in Feb. even though the calf size difference. Thanks bruce


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## agmantoo

Hi Bruce2288,
First let me welcome you to the site and to this forum!
Bloat has not been a problem. My cattle never have an empty gut and they are conditioned to rich forage starting gradually in the Spring. I am in zone 7 and we do get considerably more rain than yourself, in a good year in the low 40 inch range. We had a drought in 2003 and a major drought in 2007. One of the biggest gains from rotational grazing has been that most of the rain that falls now stays on the farm. A small pond and a couple of dugout water holes have been drying up since the water does not run off. This is something you may want to research for your application and benefit. As for stocking rates, I have not always done the rotational grazing. When I first went in the the cow/calf business I just did what all the others around me were doing. I was working my butt off and spending all the money I took in with virtually nothing left for me. Doing as everyone else did, as I recall, I had 40 to 50 cows and I could go from late March until early November in a good year on approximately 120 acres. I was harvesting hay in the Spring and possibly the Fall off part of the pasture. I also made hay off an additional 10 acre field nearby. I was buying commercial fertilizer applying 300 lbs/acre minimum per year. It literally took what the calves brought to pay the expenses to run the farm. You are probably finding that true also. I knew I had to make a change. I do not know where I picked up on the idea of rotational grazing but I decided to partition off some of the pasture with high tensile wire and to rotate. Immediately I saw I had a lot of control on how the herd was managed and the forage utilized. That was the beginning. I managed to get into January that year without hay. I saw that I could reduce the dependence on hay by 60 to 75 days. Since then I have been refining my methods and it was a challenge to see if I could get through the Winter feeding no hay. Once I accomplished that and realized it was not a fluke, I have continued to see what I could do to make the operation more profitable. When commercial fertilizer skyrocketed, I just quit using it! It was my plan to reduce the herd size if necessary rather than grow calves and donate the income to the fertilizer producers. I do have access to the liter from one commercial chicken house. That liter will only fertilize 30 plus acres every 10 months. I realized the cattle are spreading their waste and that maybe I could grow my nitrogen so that is why I have the clover. At this time I could increase the herd by at least 25% if I were to feed some supplemental hay in the Winter. During the Spring I have excess forage that I am not utilizing that could be baled. (I have sold all my baling equipment) I do not want to bring in additional cattle for the Spring grazing as the herd is nearly a closed herd. I do not inject anything and only worm a few individual animals. With some over seeding of your pastures and controlled rotational grazing using step in post and polywire, I would conservatively estimate that you could increase your carrying capacity by not less that 75%. The frame reduction, increased carrying capacity and the reduced overhead will give you what you are looking for. I hear all the time from conventional producers that they are on the verge of quitting because of no profit margin. I make weak attempts to get them to change their methods but they do not want to hear it. Repeating what has been said before "They would rather fail conventionally than change". Did you take time to read the entire lengthy post on rotational grazing?


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## Trisha in WA

My first attempt at rotational grazing started this spring just as the flush of grass was coming on. It worked beautifully. My cow produced much more milk on much less feed from me. My land stayed usable much longer into the hotter time. It has now dried up and withered away as it does every summer, but I can see how doing this every fall through spring (and into summer as far as possible) would really help the bottom line tremendously.
Unlike other areas in the eastern US we don't get summer rains here very often, so it is always drought type conditions in July and August and much of September. We will be moving to "new pastures" before the fall grass comes in, so I will have to continue my experiment elsewhere. I know it works, and I have seen the proof in the $$$ that I saved in feed already. 
Looking forward to life on the new farm.
Trisha
ETA I am sure with continual rotation I would see the grass staying viable possibly though the entire summer just because of the wonderful organic matter being added at such a concentrated rate.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for the update, Trisha. Sounds like a success. I'll be glad when I've got that first bit of experience behind me too!


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## agmantoo

Trisha in WA
Refresh my memory. As I recall you had horses along with the cow on limited acreage. Were you successful in doing some rotational grazing with more than the cow? If so, share a few details on what you did. Thanks


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## bruce2288

agmantoo. Yes I read all twenty one pages. Very interesting. I try to move every 3 days in spring and increase to 6 days as growth slows in the summer. I sometimes graze some sudan or turnips. I hay about 60days plus a week or so when I wean before cows go the corn stalks. I'm sure mob grazing with daily moves would increase production, but I wonder how much as compared to only doubleing my paddocks and moveing at 2days up to 4 or so. It definately has me thinking. Bruce


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## bruce2288

One more question on those frame3-4 cows how much growth do you think you are giveing up.eg days to 550. Although looking at the grass your herd is eating I"ll bet the calves grow like weeds.


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## agmantoo

I am moving cattle daily and have come to like the results. The cattle need to be check on daily and the move only adds a few minutes. I am not mob grazing as to my understanding of the mob approach. There is a lot of forage remaining after the 24 hours of grazing. What I observe is the there is a faster regrowth where little regrowth would be expected. The trampling and manuring of the forage is reduced and manure is more uniformly distributed. The cattle seem more content and seem to sense that they can graze and digest at leisure. My herd has been culled of difficult cattle but they are calmer with the frequent moves. I also see that I am creating a lot more forage for future consumption. Our rains come in the Spring and Fall and we also have dry July and August months. These two months are the most difficult for me to get through as there is no irrigation and it is hard to stockpile anything with any nutrient value during these months. Fortunately, the energy needs are low at this time of year. My entire on hand amount of hay is 50 bales so I get concerned. Having a questionable period for feed is what has prompted me to plant the Red River Crabgrass. I have also tried pearl millet. The best success has thus far been with the fescue which is difficult to believe if one is familiar with fescue which is known as a cool season grass. We do get a lot of dew at night. I have learned that I can benefit from the dew in early Summer if I keep the fescue from reaching maturity. I also use the dew in late August provided I can get enough moisture off a hurricane going up the east coast to sprout seed. I try to jumpstart the Fall growth and that is something you may try to get some grazing before corn is harvested. I read now that a round bale has $46 worth of fertilizer in one. I have ceased to do any land prep to speak of and I am overseeding 100%. I can overseed quickly and cheaply so I use part of the savings to apply a higher seed rate. My best overseeding results come from broadcasting the seed and then clipping the grass and thus mulching the seed. That is how I got those stands of clover. I am now letting the cattle consume the clover and distribute the seed through their digestive system. I often try to have something working for me when I am not working! I think the previous sentence is why I like rotational grazing. Did you get a good grasp on the parallel layout of the paddock fencing and the use of the polywire and step in pigtail posts? I am the only one I know of doing this and it has merit. For example, today when I went to move the cattle I observed that they had not consumed the forage adequately that was allocated yesterday. Today I only gave them 2/3rds as much but allowed them to back graze yesterdays forage if they wanted to. Being flexible with the amount of area allocated can work wonders in conserving forage or in meeting the cattles needs. I never want cattle on a single paddock for more than 3 days. I believe that you would pick up enough benefit to do the variable paddock sizing to justify the effort. In so doing you would have the benefits of doubling the paddocks also. Think this proposal through and if you have any questions just ask. I do not like small paddocks and they are inefficient when it come time to run trucks and tractors across the pastures. I have taken a lot of wire down as I started making smaller paddocks early on replicating what I read. Ideally in my mind, the best system would be two parallel fences 300 to 500 feet apart running for miles with a lane on one side and water every 1600 feet in the lane.


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## agmantoo

bruce2288,
I cannot give you a good answer on the days to 550 with the frame 3 and 4 cows. To do year around grazing the cows have to be moderate milkers in order not to lose body condition and to breed back timely. Different areas produce livestock that grow at different rates. For example, deer here do not get the size they do in colder climates. The same for cattle. As you may have read I calve year around and I am a poor record keeper when it comes to the gain. I market calves around 4 times per year to avoid the flooded seasonal lows usually associated with the sales of either Spring or Fall calves. 550# is my target but if grass is getting scarce I may send 450# with the shipment. All the calves leave here and with the price of fuel I get a higher price for the light weights because they can get more on the trucks. If I don't have a good load but have a surplus of grass I may postpone shipping for 4 to 6 weeks and let them gain more. I do monitor what my calves bring at the sale and I can say that they always sell in the top 10% or better. If I have a calf that gets discounted, I send the mother the next trip. I do cull rather hard IMO. Regardless of what I paid for the bull(s) if the offspring is not up to expectation I send the bulls
also.


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## wstevenl

You all should check out the article by Greg Judy in this months stockman grass farmer. It's very interesting and at odds with a few things posted here on Saturday. 

By the way, I use parallel high tensile with polywire and pigail posts. It's true that the ease of paddock size changes is invaluable!


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## SusyTX

Agmantoo,
A few questions for you, particularly about grass going to seed. We have just purchased nearly 16 acres of pasture land adjacent to our current 11; this land has not been grazed since November and some of it is literally near shoulder height, most I'd say is mid-calf to waist high. It has coastal bermuda, some bahia, with the rest a mix of native grasses with a fair amount of little bluestem (still working on identification of others), unfortunately it has no clover on it. We have seep springs on parts of this land, so some of it is still green. However, we are in the midst of a terrible drought (East-Central Texas)...we haven't had decent rainfall since early June (3/4"), and temps for the last few weeks have been at or over 100.

Much of the grass has seed heads. Should we cut the seed heads and perhaps the grass? I'm concerned about pink-eye, on one hand, but also the quality of the pastures if it's that high and we turn our cattle out into it uncut. I'm also pretty sure this grass is going dormant due to the drought, but if cutting the seed heads would delay that we really need the graze. Even with just a small herd of Dexters (12) our 11 acres is getting pretty run down, and only the areas near creeks (dry now) or our stock tank are somewhat green. We're pumping water from our well into our stock tank to fight evaporation. We're holding our own, but gaining no ground. I want to manage that 16 acres as best we can to get us through this drought, and give the 11 acres a rest. 

I also have a question about wild persimmons. The new 16 acres has scores of the darn things, most about 2-3 feet high. We've battled them on our 11 acres (previous owners mowed them, so we're always searching for the "stumps" as you mentioned above - they're dangerous). Our neighbor suggested Remedy; I'd like to go a more natural route, though. Would just cutting them to the ground kill them, or are we pretty much stuck with chemicals?

Thank you!


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
I do not subscribe to Stockman Grass Farmer and can only read the headlines for this month. Any chance you could post the article? Thanks


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## agmantoo

SusyTX,
Forage plants that I am familiar with exhibit one characteristic in that their sole purpose is to maintain the existence of the species by reproduction. Once the plants go to seed they either go dormant or die. My main forgage is endophyte infected fescue which is considered a cool or cold season grass. Few people realize that with water this fescue will remain green in zone 7 year around. It will actually grow at a reduced rate but it will grow. The bulk of the lawns here are sown with fescue. Those lawns that are on sprinkler systems exhibit significant growth at times when unirrigated pastures are parched. As far as your question on how to deal with your grasses I am not familiar enough with Bermuda grass to reply. My thoughts are that you are too far into the season and that with all the top residue you could do more harm than good. My concern is what will happen to the stalks, stems, blades that would be cut. With the weather dry the residue is not going to rot timely. The underlying plants are going to be choked out by the buildup. At this time I think you will get more use by letting the cattle harvest what they can and take the risk of contributing to pinkeye. Once the cattle have salvaged what they can I would start running the bushhog. I would cut the area several times starting high so the clippings would be short and thus contributing to their decomposing. There is another solution. I have not fed it but there is a liquid protein that can be lick tank provided that the cattle will consume and it makes them want to eat roughage. This process could aid you in getting through the drought and at the same time get the roughage consumed. As for the persimmons, the best practice I have used to get rid of sprouts is to put the dullest blades you can find on the Bushhog and then beat the sapling low causing the bark to burst loose below the impact spot of the blade. Don't concern yourself it the sapling is not sheared as the top will further stress the plant as it tries to survive. This process will literally sap the root to death. It may take more than one cutting/bashing but it works. This is best done in late spring as the plant is trying to grow its greatest. I would start now even though the timing isn't optimum. You certainly do not want them getting larger. If you have a problem with cedars cut them below the bottom limb and they will die.


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## Trisha in WA

agmantoo said:


> Trisha in WA
> Refresh my memory. As I recall you had horses along with the cow on limited acreage. Were you successful in doing some rotational grazing with more than the cow? If so, share a few details on what you did. Thanks


Yes, I have 2 horses, an adult milk cow, her heifer and now 4 Holstein steer calves (2 that are in the rotation and 2 that are not) in about 2 1/2 acres of pasture (property is 3 acres in all, but not all is in pasture). For now, each class has to stay separated. So, I rotated the milk cow through several of the paddocks first, followed by either the horses or the 2 steer calves. The heifer has 2 larger paddocks that she stays in. Until she is back with her mother (she is a bottle fed future milk cow and needs to be totally weaned from Mom), it was going to be too much of a challenge to get her well into the rotation. I put the cow on a fresh paddock every other day, since the paddocks are way more than enough for one cow (about 30'x70' +/-). I kept a sacrifice area for the horses to stay in at night. I rotated them through behind the cow. I found that if I left the cow on a paddock more than 2 days her milk production would drop, and now that the grass is gone it has dropped more permanently even though I have increased her hay a great deal. Fresh grass just makes more milk.
I was able to cut the horse hay by at least half during the best part of the grass growth and the cow was cut completely off of the grass hay and only give a very small amount of alfalfa (she also gets a small amount of grain at milking time). I would say during the 8-10 weeks that I had good grazing and was rotating, I saved a couple hundred dollars in hay and I didn't spend more than that to buy my extra fencing that I will use many many years.
As I said, we will be moving in a couple of months. I am taking all my temporary fencing with me, so I won't have that part of the investment to make again. I only wish I had started this process years ago. I would be so much farther along in the learning curve. But at least I have a start, and I know this is the way to go...even with horses in the mix. On a larger property, I would probably put 5 acres aside for the horses, but I would still divide it up and move them to fresh each day. Just the amount of money it has saved me in the very short time this spring was amazing. The way I used to do things, I got MAYBE 2 weeks of time that I didn't have to feed the horses full feed.
Agman, thank you very much for sharing your experiences with all of us. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. It really gave me that last little push to make it happen here. 
Blessings,
Trisha


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## Allen W

SusyTX
I wouldn't recommend mowing. In a drought situation you want to utilize what you have. With timely rain all of your grasses should grow some yet. Protein supplement and rotational grazing will help to better utilize the mature forage on the new pasture.

I have three links here from Oklahoma State Extension about protein supplementation that may help you.  http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1924/ANSI-3010web.pdf, Supplementing Beef Cows,  http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2014/ANSI-3017.pdf, Feeding High Protein Range Cubes http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2042/ANSI-3032web.pdf, Oklahoma Gold Q&A

Here is the link to the Oklahoma Beef Extention web site I got the links from, http://beefextension.com/index.html


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## SusyTX

Thanks Agmantoo and Allen W., you've both pretty much said what my gut was telling me. If we did cut the grass it would most likely go to waste and weigh heavy on the pasture, but as long as it's upright it's available to our cattle as badly needed graze as they need it. I do appreciate your guidance.

We'll keep fighting the persimmons by cutting, thanks. I've been out there with loppers doing it one at a time, we had one heifer get a nasty 4" scratch above her hoof from contact with a leftover stump from mowing done by previous owners. 

We've been supplementing with protein cubes mostly as a treat, square bales as needed, and have put out a protein tub, thanks. This is our normal winter method, it's amazing we need to do this now. Our forecast is for 100 plus all this week with a minimal chance of rain. Our livestock auctions have been full of people sending stock off early, hay is becoming scarce, and stock tanks are drying up. I'm so grateful we have that 16 acres of pasture. We're hoping El Nino gives us a bit of rain.

Thanks again for your guidance!!!!!


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> . The same thing will happen if the cattle are allowed to spoil the tall grass by trampling. The stems will be slow to rot and will shade the ground creating bare spots later.
> 
> This is a little of my problem. I got a late start by getting my cattle in late May. Grass was tall and coarse. They ate it down and I mowed it after. Lots of residue was laying on top and the coarser material (that probably wasn't their favorite) is what grew back faster. It greened up pretty well so I sent them on another trip after about 30 days. I'm hoping the second trimming will encourage a little more clover and tender grasses. I think it's risky because I should be stockpiling something now but I want to be stockpiling the good stuff. Hopefully when I have them right from April next year and I'm smarter I'll get the proper moves in at the proper time. The bright side is that where their urine and dung fell last things are looking much better. Hopefully the pasture improves in time and increase carrying capacity.


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## agmantoo

Ed K, 

Where are you located?

There are some rotational grazing "experts" that will disagree with the statement you quoted of mine. My hands on real world findings just do not agree with theirs which state that it is great to let the cattle soil the grass and to waste forage as it creates a better environment for regrowth,etc. My findings are that it wastes good forage and weakens the stands of desirable plants. I prefer for the recycled material to be available as manure and some added weight in the form of meat. Your comments substantiate what I observe. To remedy the situation, I would leave things as they are until the weather in your area is suitable for planting some forages. I would obtain the seed in advance and when conditions are suitable I would broadcast sow a clover and a grass by overseeding, do not disturb the soil, then I would cut short (6 to 8 inches high) the residue from what exists of the coarse material that is growing now. This will somewhat mulch the seed creating a seedbed. I plan on sowing some crimson clover at the end of next month and possibly some Marshall ryegrass, the ryegrass only if the fescue has bare spots from being smothered and I will blend some fescue in with the ryegrass.


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## Ed K

agmantoo said:


> Ed K,
> 
> Where are you located?
> 
> There are some rotational grazing "experts" that will disagree with the statement you quoted of mine. My hands on real world findings just do not agree with theirs which state that it is great to let the cattle soil the grass and to waste forage as it creates a better environment for regrowth,etc. My findings are that it wastes good forage and weakens the stands of desirable plants. I prefer for the recycled material to be available as manure and some added weight in the form of meat. Your comments substantiate what I observe. To remedy the situation, I would leave things as they are until the weather in your area is suitable for planting some forages. I would obtain the seed in advance and when conditions are suitable I would broadcast sow a clover and a grass by overseeding, do not disturb the soil, then I would cut short (6 to 8 inches high) the residue from what exists of the coarse material that is growing now. This will somewhat mulch the seed creating a seedbed. I plan on sowing some crimson clover at the end of next month and possibly some Marshall ryegrass, the ryegrass only if the fescue has bare spots from being smothered and I will blend some fescue in with the ryegrass.


I'm in western PA. It has been unseasonably cool here for July only reaching the high 70's in the daytime. Up until about two weeks ago it has been more wet than usual for June and July. That's what I think is saving me from the grass going dormant. Some of my property is in a narrow strip of creek bottom sheltered by two steep treelined hills which will probably make my best August pasture once my forage improves unfortunately I had to run the cowa through there in the last two weeks just to harvest what was there before the weeds grew away from it. I've been scything the previous days paddocks to knochk the weeds back and hopefully encourage desirable forage. When I used to mow this area several times a year it looked pretty good so I feel confident I can improve things in time. The herd consists of a mom and her Sepetember calf so far so I can be flexible and feed hay if I have to or wait for things to improve. I plan to overseed with grass and clover in September

Thanks


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## agmantoo

Ed K
If you have access to a rotary cutter I want to change my mind based on your location and the weather. I suggest that ASAP to clip the grass at the top of the leaves. If the grass is waist high possibly clip it twice to get down to the leaves and to have a better distribution of the residue. This will get rid of or prevent a lot of weeds problems and still give the grass a few weeks to recover. With rain this will get you some August growth and will prepare for September regrowth for the start of saving grass for stockpiling as well as Fall grazing.


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## agmantoo

Ed K, I realized when I moved the cattle today I was at the location where the cattle were grazing when godsgapeach visited the beef farm. It has been 4 weeks plus since we had rain. We were fortunate enough to get some rain in the wee hours of this morning. I used my usual procedures to try to maximize the forage. I am attaching two pics, one of the just grazed paddock (last 24 hours) and another of the adjacent allocation with the cattle just given access. If you get started and maintain a clipping schedule your pastures should look the same next season.

Just grazed over the last 24 hours, part of the new paddock can be seen on the left side of the pic.









New adjacent paddock to be grazed over the next 24 hours


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## bruce2288

Agmantoo, To answer your ? I do have the concepts of the lanes down. Your flat pastures are very different from my grazing. Rough hills and draws. The local fertilizer dealer will not run equipment on most pastures in my area. Shredding pasture is very hit and miss just too rough and steep. So truck, tractor traffic is a nonissue for me. Bruce


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## wstevenl

Agmantoo,
I could not find Greg Judy's most recent article in the SGF, nor do I know if it would be legal for me to type it up for you. I did find a little older article that has the same subject matter.
http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/May09_Judy.pdf

You're right (on the top of this page) that some of the "experts" have a different opinion on the effect of litter. In the most recent article my Judy it's pretty clear that you must have an environment that encourages soil microbes other tiny bugs or you will have a mulch instead of new soil. Judy wrote that wormer, pesticides, and many fertilizers would kill off these soil builders. He also said that it takes his pastures about 4 weeks for the grasses to start shooting up through the litter. He's rotating every 120-150 days though. 

For a long time I didn't know what to tell people when they said "you can't not fertilize. You need NPK because it's being taken away and something has to put it back." Well, building soil through manure and grass litter, being broken down by microbes seems like the missing link to me. This seems like the explanation of why you can in fact make it without industrial fertilizer. 

We have had varying success with our attempt at mob grazing so far. For the most part, the areas that were very tall and beautiful, and grazed/trampled very evenly are bouncing back wonderfully. There are however "dead" spots that I can't explain. They don't seem to be where there was excess forage litter. Many of the spots look like the size of a cow and made me wonder if it could be where they laid and the body heat killed the forage. (That sounds pretty stupid though) These spots are slowly filling it with volunteer warm grasses and the clover is creeping back into them so in the end it will all work out. 

So, after reading Judy's article I'd like to hear your thoughts. He sounds like all of his advice is coming from real world experience, for what it's worth. 

Oh... one more thing. When I saw Joel Salatin last year he said that he had just been to Greg Judy's farm the day before and while they are both now doing "MOB" grazing he was shocked by the amount of litter that Judy's cows were leaving on the ground. We asked him what he thought of it and he said that he hadn't had time to process it yet. It made his eyes bug out though. lol


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## agmantoo

Wstevenl, Thanks for the link to the article by Greg Judy. Here where I reside I have 161 acres of pasture for forage production. I do not have any hired or intern help. I do not charge for seminars nor visits to my farm. I do not have to promote any new ideas nor come up with a gimmick to get publicity/exposure. Cattle are not the side line and income from speeches and articles do not exist. If I make any money from rotational grazing it is income from the cattle and them alone. Having said that I feel that I am as in touch with what works as well or better than most because I am in there every day. I do consider myself open to new or different approaches and ideas or I would not be doing the rotational grazing. I am running the herd 365 days /year on the forage produced on these pastures, there is no hay. From what I read Judy is not going through the Winter on stockpiled feed. Obviously he has more acres per cow/calf available to him than I have and most of the other persons I speak with. This acreage I have is bought by me and not leased at a low price from others. I do not have the luxury of spanning 150 days between grazing an area. I cannot let paddocks grow up in cockleburs as in the photo in the article. If letting a pasture revert to nature and then demolishing the volunteer trash of said pasture would build ground every farmer in the nation would be fighting over abandoned waste land. What Judy promotes will not stand over the test of time. His best forages will be eaten to the ground and stressed. Then those stressed plants will have to compete with the trash plants that were just trampled in order to reemerge. In 3 to 5 years there will be nothing but saplings and weeds. The strongest of the plants will dominate and it will not be the desired forage plants. I tried to caution you on letting the plants build excessive thatch and I suggested for you to distribute the manure pats. I think you were displeased by my suggestions and to offend was not my intent. Having read the same article that you did I can understand your position. Free advice is often perceived to be inferior to paid for or published advice and I do not charge.


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## wstevenl

So, in a round about way, are you trying to say that because Judy makes so much money from sales of books and classes he needs to do something different than all the others and that is why he's mob grazing? 
He does have some (sarcasm) interest in it actually working because it would increase book sales, plus the rest of his income in grass fed beef/lamb/ pastured pork sales. 

You said that you don't have as many acres/cow. All the numbers I've ever read suggest improved cows/acre with mob grazing not the opposite. 

Greg Judy is grazing year round on stockpiled forage.. He said that he was still grazing stockpiled tall forage halfway into March this year and on this, his 4th year of high density grazing he will be adding about 20% to his cow herd because there was so much extra forage this winter. He doesn't hay his cows or sheep at all. You believe his pastures will fall apart in 3/5 years? I guess his book sales and on farm grazing schools will loose their demand. lol

On spreading our manure piles.... we just don't have the capital to invest in a tractor and borrowing a tractor can only be done so often before you run out of friends.  The cow pats don't seem to be a problem so far.


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## ramiller5675

Wstevenl, Judy has a seminar at his farm that 'only' costs $800 in September, what earth shattering information do you think you would learn there that you won't learn from Agmantoo's suggestions?

Will Judy answer your questions without some sort of payment?


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## wstevenl

Many people in the country don't know about this thread... some will actually pay $800 to learn I guess. More power to him. I've not tried to reach him. Only seen him speak once on grazing sheep year round and read his articles. I've not actually given him money directly. Just went to a conference and I get the SGF in the mail. I know..... I am paying him indirectly. 

Why are we starting to argue about another guy that rotates cattle every day to new pasture, year round? We all agree on 90% of this stuff.


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## SusyTX

Not to jump into a fray here, but we're aren't planning on buying a tractor either. However, what we are going to do is buy a drag harrow and attach it to our old truck. It may or may not work, but it's worth a try to bust up very valuable cow patties and spread the wealth.....


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## agmantoo

There is no argument nor are tempers flaring. There is no reason for that. At most there is a debate as to what works and what does not. As mature individuals we all have the right to voice our opinions and to support our stand. Are we in agreement and can we go forth accordingly?


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## agmantoo

SusyTX 
There is no need to buy a harrow. There are folks that take tires and slice them in half in order to make weights that will not hold water to weigh down plastic on ground silos. Provided you can cut some tires in such a manner and locate a piece of pipe for a tongue you can fabricate a good drag that will last for years. Using a few links of chain as couplers and some bolts, nuts and washers to secure the tire carcasses to each other these make great durable tools for breaking up the patties.


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## wstevenl

Sure thing.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

SusyTX said:


> Not to jump into a fray here, but we're aren't planning on buying a tractor either. However, what we are going to do is buy a drag harrow and attach it to our old truck. It may or may not work, but it's worth a try to bust up very valuable cow patties and spread the wealth.....


An old mattress box spring works good too, pulled behind any vehicle. You may have to tie a heavy log or 6x6 on it to get some weight depending on how much excess forage is sticking up.


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## SusyTX

Excellent ideas, thanks!


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## Ed K

Agmantoo, 

I appreciate your free advice here..... but just so you know.... if you ever wrote a book or made a video that sold for under $30 I'd probably buy it. I can accept the fact that some of my grazing info comes from people who farm whether or not they have other sources of income. 

If all I got out of the book/tape was the knot for connecting polywire to perimeter fence I'd figure it would be worth at least half the price of admission. 

Ed


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## bruce2288

I don't think this is an either or situation. There are more than one way to do many things. I bet Judy would think Agmantoo's operation is pretty impressive and vice versa. They both might want to do some things different doesn't mean right or wrong just different. My soil, moisture, weather,grass, cattle, soil insect, microbes ect would not exactly match anyone elses, why would my operation. What is the same is the goal of growing quality forage in a sustainable manner resulting maximum $, with healthy soil, grass and livestock. There is more than one way to skin a cat some more efficient than others.


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## bruce2288

A drag behind a 4 wheeler will spread a lot of manure in a short time.


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## agmantoo

I have a question regarding Greg Judy moving his cattle twice per day. He appears to have a surplus of forage and does not mind wasting (my term) forage and is satisfied with the cattle eating only the high end portion of the forage. (What he is doing does not meet the definition of mob grazing as I know it.) He encourages the trampling of the remainder. That being the situation, why does he move 2 times per day? It appears to me that a single move and an allocation of double the area would be more labor efficient. What am I missing?


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## SteveO

Afternoon All,
Agmantto I would have to say that the difference is. He is not there to practice as he preachs. As you know if you are gone you will preallocate the next moves and be a little generous. Imagine if you were there a week a month and someone else was doing your allocating. It makes life easier if you carry 70% of a animal load and allocate 130% per move so you are more worried about covering the whole property. Than getting the max out of it.
As I think you said a few pages ago the disuse will catch up with him in the long run and the money is in the book sales and not the farm.

A an aside Agmantoo did you recieve the PM I sent you about the hightop mower from my Canadian adventure.

SteveO


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## wstevenl

Check this out... A Note From Jim Gerrish...


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## Curtis B

Sorry to stray from the current topic, but I had a question on watering. It sounds as if you pulled in pipe and set up watering stations where the paddoks are. In my situation I don't want to do anything perminanate, as my hopes are to increase the amount of land that I have and that would mean moving in the future. Since I am on a small scale at this point I was thinking of a portable water source that could be moved with an ATV and then filled with a tank as needed, but still move with the herd. Also what do you do for shade? I have been told by some people that cattle don't really need shade, by I believe that in my area they do (just by watching what is here). Since I don't have many trees, I was thinking of a portable shade structure also. I know moving all this would take extra time, but in the very least if I was to move it could come with me. Any thoughts?


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## agmantoo

Jim Gerrish and I are in sync. I remain uncertain in what Greg Judy is attempting to accomplish other than publicity.


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## agmantoo

Curtis B
I have my pipes supplying water to the herd buried, not in the paddocks but in the lanes that give access to the paddocks. This puts the lines out of harms way and provides cooler drinking water. Above ground lines here in the Summer heat the water to where one cannot tolerate the heated water when touched. I am attempting for the cattle to have access to water without traveling more than 800ft. 800 ft. is considered the magic number for cattle to go to water individually as opposed to a whole herd movement. A whole herd movement overwhelms most watering systems. Since your operation is subject to chance I suggest you consider only access lanes and let the cattle return to the nearest source of water rather than installing a system at this time. I provide shade to the herd during the hottest months by giving them access to wooded windrows and small plots of trees. July and August in NC are too hot without some shade IMO. I do not like stressing my cattle. I often read about feedlot cattle without shade dying in high heat in places like Texas. I do not want to replicate that.


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## wstevenl

SteveO,
Where did you here that Judy was only around for 1 week a month?
I know from his talk that he has one 17 year old neighbor that works for him by moving cows. 

Agmantoo,
I have read where Judy said that in the wet season he moves them more often to reduce pasture damage. He also said that plugging isn't as much of a problem in heavy rains anymore because the sword is so much thicker than in past years. I would guess that he may move them twice a day because they seem to eat two meals a day, that way they start with a "clean plate". 

There is a dairy near us that moves cows 2 to 7 times a day (I don't know any details as to their thinking with this).


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## agmantoo

I know why the dairy folks move frequently. Two reasons are to get a milking boost off the green forage and to maximize the use of the limited green forage available.

Pugging problems are significantly reduced when doing rotational grazing. Much of the water is absorbed quickly into the ground. I graze steep hillsides during wet periods as they do not get as soggy due to runoff.

SteveO, yes, I got the PM. I may have found a tool but I remain open to ideas.


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## agmantoo

I was at the back of the farm today where the Red River Crabgrass is sown. It is beginning to go to seed with some of the seed ripening. I am going to give it another month to produce seed that should germinate next season before giving the cattle access. The RRCG is more than twice the height of native crabgrass IMO.


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## SteveO

Afternoon all,
As per this qoute
Greg is absolutely convinced that there is no better way to get into the grazing business than to lease some fallow land, employ high density grazing, and use other peopleâs livestock to do it

It sounds like quite the deal
he owns 200 of 1600 based on what I can find out

he owns no cattle
And as I was told above it is managed by a 17 year old
is spread over 10 farms and 1600 acres
also has sheep pigs and other irons in the fire
A very very busy couple

So I agree he may be at home But who decides how far to move. They didn't clean up enough of yesterday evenings alotment so we give them a little less. Or the quality of forage changes.Or or or or we could go on for ever. The point is it is not a hands on operation each and every move. It's move it 5 posts once or twice a day.

A question though if you lease land and deplete it do you have to return it in the same condition? I say morally yes. But for thoughs that do how do you deal with that issue??

steveO


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## ArmyDoc

SteveO said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> A question though if you lease land and deplete it do you have to return it in the same condition? I say morally yes. But for thoughs that do how do you deal with that issue??
> steveO


I'd say with rotational grazing you're more likely to improve it than deplete it. The cycle of growth and hard cutting will cause the roots to grow and die back, breaking up and increasing the deapth of the top soil. Grass grows mainly by converting mostly Carbon from CO2 using energy from the sun. That is then converted to beef. The cows waste also improves the soil. I suppose with each cow that leaves, there is some mineral loss. But probably not much. Infact, if you give your cows minerals, you might be adding the excess the cow takes in to the soil through the feces.


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## myersfarm

agmantoo Ideally in my mind, the best system would be two parallel fences 300 to 500 feet apart running for miles with a lane on one side and water every 1600 feet in the lane.


I just can not picture this in my mind......

can you explain...or a diagram

.in other post you said you do not use gates but a pvc pipe to raise the wire so cows walk under...so how do the cows get back in to the run to get to the water..


just trying to understand...I have 440 acres and some one is wanting to rent some of my land as i do not use it for the dairy heifer operation....this year I have 16 milk cows and 91 heifer calves....next year 16 cows and 150 calves....but will still have 200 acres I do not use...


might be able to rent out the 200 acres of land and use the rotational grazing for both


tjm


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## agmantoo

Let me try to explain first. If that is unclear I will attempt a sketch. Regardless, I will do my best to get across how it works. 
Here are a few facts that we want to work into the "system'
1...we do not want the cattle to have to travel more than 800ft to get water. Therefore, if water is located every 1600 ft they are either leaving water or going to water that is within 800 ft worst case assuming water is available at the starting point which is usually the case.
2...with a permanent parallel fence placed 500 ft apart we can erect a single strand of wire on the inside of one of the permanent fences say 60 ft off and parallel to the permanent fence. This will be the lane. The lane is large enough to do double duty, it can lead to water and it can be grazed.
3...With 2 reels of polywire and some pigtail posts we can make two perpendicular temporary fences to form a paddock. This paddock formed by our setup can be any length we want and 440 ft in depth and with a 60 ft lane to one side.
4... if we were introducing cattle to grass that we had established ahead of time the first thing we would do is to graze the lane until we got to the 800ft mark. Each end of the lane would be closed off with wire or polywire. NOTE...At the beginning of our two very lengthy parallel permanent fences we would need a means of closing the opening and at the end of the parallel permanent fence we would also need a means of closing the opening.
5...after the herd grazed the lane, we would now make a paddock using the polywire. From the starting point we could go any distance we determined adequate from the start and allocate the paddock size to be consumed the next 24 hours. We would remove a hairpin holding the single lane wire and use a 7 ft PVC pipe with a V cut in one end and insert the PVC pipe over the fiberglass/poly post and lift the single lane wire up and place the wire in the V. The cattle can enter and exit the paddock to use the lane to access water. 
6...After the cattle consume the allocated paddock, the second polyreel and pigtail posts are set up ahead of the last polywire and pigtail posts. The PVC pipe is moved to give access to the new paddock. The first cross polywire can be raised or can be partially rolled onto the reel to give the cattle access to the new ungrazed paddock then the polywire can be put back in place to prevent the cattle from back grazing. This process is repeated at whatever frequency the paddocks are to be rotated.
7...Once the cattle reach the end of the parallel fenced area the beginning area should have regrown. The cattle are moved back up the lane to the starting point and the process is repeated.

Obviously, having such a parallel fence setup with no end will not exist. However, with some planning a maze type setup can be accomplished and the cattle can be rotated over a farm regardless of the lay of the land.


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## myersfarm

if the wires are set 440 feet wide with water in the lane that is 60 ft wide and the two waters are 1600 ft apart 

then if you step off that 1600 ft line in between the two waters in any direction left or right it will be farther then 800 ft to water


when at the far side of the field it is 440 FT wide it will be farther then 800 ft to water NOT 1240 but it will be farther

that is a smart idea to move the pvc gate also letting them walk and clean out from under the fence line also as they walk back and forth


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## agmantoo

You are correct. It all depends on where the animal is when it decides to go to water and where you place the PVC pipe. If the animal is in the lane then it will not have to travel more than 800 ft. My cattle will go in small groups or individually with this layout. I apologize for any confusion this may have created.


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## myersfarm

no need to apologize...you are helping us..i just could not get it in my mind how the run and the paddock worked with out gates and only walking 800 feet to water


I now understand completely

if you had a 1600 fence line just move the water 400 to 600 feet from the cross fence instead of at the start as you said were most people have it to start with


like cross fence 600 ft water then 600 ft next water 

what do you use for water troughs what company


your pvc idea really cuts down on the walking if you had put gates in the cows would have to walk even farther to water doubling back


one other thing with out gates how do you drive your 4 wheeler around if you want drive to the back 40 to look things over


thanks a lot for your time

I have been to grazing school but they just did not go into great detail........on the fencing part



tjm


thanks tjm


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## agmantoo

I have two brands of waterers, Ritchie and Behlan. They are expensive IMO at about $630 each for just the waterer itself. In order to control costs and to minimize maintenance I have kept the number of waterers to a minimum.
Using the four wheeler with the single strand fencing is not a problem. At the fence, in a location more to the center between posts, I drive the ATV up close to the fence and dismount on the throttle side, then stick my big foot on top of the wire and press the wire to the ground. I then reach over to the throttle and hit it with my finger and the atv leaps forward and is across the fence. I have done this so many times it is second nature. I have read that in Australia vehicles are fitted with a long length of PVC pipe attached to the undercarraige. The PVC pipe then protrudes to the front of the vehicle and is bowed upward (attached back to the roof of the vehicle) resembling the bow of a boat. The vehicle is driven perpendicular to the fence and the bowed PVD pipe rides the fence to the ground and the fence is driven over without leaving the vehicle.


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## myersfarm

I have one of the japanese trucks why I asked and saw the pipe under the truck thing work on a Suzuki Samurai only difference he used steel pipe and it would wear the wire into every once in a while be cause he always when in between the same two post


but i could not figure how to get the tractor and bush hog I have two tractors both with cabs..9 to 10 ft tall back to the back 40 with out gates

how to you get the tractor and bush hog though lay something heavy on the fence

do you use spring tensioners on the fence



thanks again for your time


tjm


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## agmantoo

When I need to move the tractor or other machinery into a paddock I use the pigtail step-in posts and anchor the wire to the ground. I will go to the posts on either side of where I plan on crossing and pull the hairpin from the posts to create more slack. This is the reason that I twist the hairpin in a cursive e around the high tensile wire to prevent losing the hairpin. I even drive the Cat track loader across the wire with no problems.
Spring tensioners are an idea that upfront seems to have merit but in actual use are not necessary. The single strand wire does not need to be tight. It is the shock that the fence delivers and not the strength of the wire that prevents the cattle from breaching the fence. Do not buy tensioners, save your money to buy a high end fence charger.


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## myersfarm

thanks been a big help



thanks for your time

tjm


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## wstevenl

SteveO said:


> Afternoon all,
> As per this qoute
> Greg is absolutely convinced that there is no better way to get into the grazing business than to lease some fallow land, employ high density grazing, and use other peopleâs livestock to do it
> 
> It sounds like quite the deal
> he owns 200 of 1600 based on what I can find out
> 
> he owns no cattle
> And as I was told above it is managed by a 17 year old
> is spread over 10 farms and 1600 acres
> also has sheep pigs and other irons in the fire
> A very very busy couple
> 
> So I agree he may be at home But who decides how far to move. They didn't clean up enough of yesterday evenings alotment so we give them a little less. Or the quality of forage changes.Or or or or we could go on for ever. The point is it is not a hands on operation each and every move. It's move it 5 posts once or twice a day.
> 
> steveO



First, Steveo, what's wrong with leasing land? and what's wrong with contract or custom grazing? so the guy leases land that is fallow and does a good job grazing other peoples herds.... so?? Of course grazing and long rest periods are going to leave the land better than leaving it fallow or row cropping. 

Second, I believe he does own cattle. He has, I believe, South Polled cattle, mostly St. Croix sheep, and Tamworth hogs. He custom grazes other peoples herds and they make up the mob together. He also allows land owners to keep a few cows in the mob in order to keep their interest and keep them happy to lease to him. They get to bring their golfing/business buddies out to see "their" cattle and he gets to lease land knowing that the landowner is excited about what he is doing. 

Your last comment really confuses me.... You agree that he's probably around alot more than 1 week a month, but you think that his high school aged helper is doing all the work and can't make good judgements about how/when to move the cows? Your description of how to judge what allotment to give the cows is right on. You must look at what they ate the day before and think about how the forage might be different than the previous paddock. You may also be thinking about how muddy it is, if it's going to rain, etc. But, you say this so sarcastically. Are you saying that his helper couldn't possibly do it? Judy doesn't do it? It isn't done well enough? Do you think the "helper" is doing all the work? I would find it hard to believe that a high school kid is making all the moves. I'm sorry I'm just not following you. 
I alternate moving our cows with my brother in-law when he's not too busy with his job and we now have a very similar judgement about paddock sizes... why is this not possible for Judy? 
I don't know why you say it's not a hands on operation.... that just seems ridiculous. Do you think he has some kind of self moving fencing system like an automated hog barn?


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## SteveO

I believe all I can do is agree to disagree. Hopefully this thread will return to the educational thread it has been.
Concider my case closed
and sorry to have raised anyones blood pressure

SteveO


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## wstevenl

Anyone else have any idea what SteveO's point was?
He's apparently unable to explain it. 

By the way, my blood pressure isn't raised. I'm super proud of all you fellow grass farmers after going to St. Louis this weekend to see Food INC. It was great.


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## Farm 36

This topic was hot and heavy at the begining of the year. Now is the time to start grazing and you can make mistakes and it will all go away come fall or winter and can order supplies and they can be a day late or if the familiy has an outing you can spend the day from the farm and enjoy . In the spring things happen to fast and a mistake of growing grass will not be changed till winter. Start now for next year and you will be way way farther ahead .


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## agmantoo

Farm 36,
I see that you are located in Wi and maybe your season is far behind mine here in NC. I am now entering the most difficult time of year for my operation. The latter part of July and all of August is a hot dry period for us. I find this the most challenging time as a year around rotational grazer. It has been roughly 7 weeks since we had an significant rain. Just getting the pigtail posts pushed into the ground has become a task. The pastures are dry and when you walk on the forage it makes a crunching noise. Had I taken the attitude that Greg Judy describes when forage is abundant I would be in a world of hurt when it comes to feeding the herd. Instead, I have been conservative and I have stockpiled grass adequate for at least 45 days. I am still clipping grazed areas to suppress weeds. I am planning for Fall overseeding and I am ordering supplies now. By the end of August I want to get a jump start on preparation for late Fall and Winter feeding. As stated previously I have learned that I can get some growth off the night dews provided I can get the seed germinated. Hopefully we will get some rain off a hurricane, within a few weeks, that comes up the east coast in a typical year.


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## Farm 36

I find your system agman very hard to find a way to be more profitable I think you are doing a super job at manageing a system to be profitable to the fullest extent . I think that to many start projects in the spring and thing get ahead of them and lose interest. Now is a good time to start putting in fencing and being ready in the spring .


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## wstevenl

In no way being argumentative I have to ask you to describe what attitude it is that you think would have put you in a world of hurt? As I understand it Judy is always moving slowly through his rotation and always stockpiling. Why do you think that he would have no grass at this point? 

We have only a small herd and a small 10 acre plot to test MiG ideas on but right now we've got about a 65 day rotation and we could graze very well for 35 days if we had no more growth. But, our grass is growing. We had a hot dry June but our July has been more cool and we've had some rains here and there. I think surely we must be getting growth off of the heavy dews also.


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## agmantoo

Farm 35
Restating what I have said before, starting to do the rotational grazing effort in the Fall is IMO the best time. The reasons are many. With the beginner it is known that they are not going to make it as far into the season as an experienced grazer. They should have their hay on hand so the pressure is not on them that is on a person that has nothing to fall back on. Drought and heat are not as big an obstacle, severe cold has not arrived. The work, such as planting and weed control, has slackened. The cattle are easier managed in that the food provided is probably better than what is growing outside the paddocks. Having some success will instill in the start up grazer the awareness that they can succeed. This less hectic time will give them the opportunity to think through their operation to overcome whatever issues surface. I never recommend putting the water system in first as the likelyhood is that once the system is tested it will be decided to do some modifications to the layout and the water source may not be ideally located. I am the type that is convinced "any thing can be made to work if you work on it long enough"


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
My background is significantly different than Greg Judy's. His is as a lab technician and mine is in agriculture. Experience has taught me that in nature to deal with those things that I can influence and to prepare for the worst and to hope for the best. I cannot afford to waste forage! My forage production does not adhere to methods Judy promotes, Before trampling (wasting forage) and anticipating heavy uniform regrowth a person needs to do some research. I do not think it will work for others over a period of five years. In a typical 5 year period a farmer will IMO experience 1 extremely good season, 1 extremely bad season and 3 average. During a wet ideal growing season what Judy promotes may be observed. That occurrence will be the exception, not the norm. He just does not have the experience and exposure to know that yet. Had I been doing so for the last 45 days I would not have feed for the next 45. I have no assurance of rain and without rain I have no forage. I also have no hay and I cannot return the cattle to the owners since I do not contract graze. Recall that I am running a cow plus calf for the full year on an allocation of 1.6 acres or less.


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## wstevenl

Agman, is the paddock that you are grazing tomorrow regrowth or will the herd be grazing what they left behind and 45 days ago?

I noticed that you are still clipping pastures when do you get to stop?


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## agmantoo

The cattle will be grazing Spring growth that I have clipped the tops in order to keep the forage from going to seed. The grass, while still green, is approaching dormancy due to the dry weather. By the second to third week of August the Red River crabgrass should have mature seeds and I will shift the herd in that direction. I am still mowing but I am now mowing behind the cattle to prevent the weeds that they did not eat from making seeds and to stress the weed plants themselves. By the end of August I want to be ready to start the stockpiling process. This will reduce the available acreage for grazing. Regrowth may not kick in until September depending on rain and heat. As the end of November approaches I need to have most of the forage growth needed for Winter standing in the paddocks. Additionally, the early grazed paddocks in September and October need to be isolated so that the paddocks can get some regrowth and allowed to continue to grow on the warm days in November and December as insurance against Winter lingering in March and the stockpiled paddocks being exhausted resulting in shortage of feed.


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
Here are a couple of pics taken when I moved the herd this evening.
This is today's All you can eat buffet








Here is a few of the dinner guest








Here is the crowd milling around


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## godsgapeach

Looks great, Agman! Did you get some of that rain I requested be sent your way?


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
We got a heavy shower last night but the major rain managed to skirt around us. The forecast is good for afternoon thunder storms so maybe we will get lucky. 
Regarding the persimmon sprouts, has your efforts made an impact on their elimination?


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## godsgapeach

I actually think the persimmons like it when they're mowed back. They seem to come back with a vengeance! I've been trying to decide if hooking up a chain to the roots in the middle of a stand and snatching them up with a winch would be more successful. 
The were just cut back a few weeks ago and now they're the greenest things I can see out in front of the house. It's very frustrating!

I've got some questions I'm working on for you as I'm prepping my fencing order. I'm hoping to get them to you in the next day or two.

It looks like I missed a bit of an uprising in the thread while we were out of town the last couple of weeks. I tried to keep up, but on very limited dial-up wasn't very successful. Then we had our own medical drama with my 14yo dd so that took priority, of course.

All I'll say in response is: *I've seen first-hand that what you advise here on the site truly does work in practice--IMO, with great success! I'll stick with trusting your methods and recommendations and emulate them as much as possible, to the best of my ability. *

As always, thanks for your assistance!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
When time permits go into the pasture and look at the persimmon sprouts at the point where the mower cut them off. I want to know if the bark appears as if the sprout was cut off with a pair of garden shears or if the sprout was beaten apart? What does the bark look like on the piece attached to the roots?


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## godsgapeach

Here are some pics of the regrowth on the persimmons:



























Looks like the bark is shattered but the regrowth is sometimes from the root and sometimes still from the shattered stobs. They're pretty persistent...


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## wstevenl

When you start rotating the herd and grazing them more densely, won't the cows eat the leaves off of the saplings and stress them? If we have any large weeds in a paddock (pig weed, horse weed, or lamb's quarter) the cows always strip off the leaves and eat the softer stems and seed head if there is one. They seem to go after most of those weeds before they eat much of the stuff that we planted on purpose.


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## myersfarm

my cows never even think about eating lambs quarter

wish I had some of yours they would be really fat here


tjm


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## godsgapeach

wstevenl, I've never known them to do anything with the persimmon saplings except use them as a belly scratcher. It doesn't matter if they're small and tender or not. I don't know if that will be any different once I get the rotations going. We'll see. ;>


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach, thanks for the pics. It appears that the rotary cutting did a decent task but that the persimmon sprouts are too determined. I took the liberty of contacting a friend that I made years ago when I was farming. He is extremely knowledgeable with herbicides. He in turn contacted someone in the industry and has replied to me that your best bet is to use a weed wiper or to spot spray with Remedy herbicide (http://www.dowagro.com/PublishedLit...h=ca/pdfs/noreg/010-20897.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc). Either method will only impact the persimmon sprouts if done properly. You obviously have a drastic situation and such problems call for drastic measures. Remedy has no withdrawal period for beef cattle grazing. My friend said that the persimmons, though not listed on the tree list, were a controlled species from one properly applied application.


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## godsgapeach

Wow, Agman! Thanks for going to the trouble of checking with your friend. It is pretty a pretty dire situation. I'd bushhogged back in April or so and Daddy repeated it around July 4 and those pics are from yesterday. They do come back with a vengeance!

I will definitely track down the Remedy--we've got both a weed wiper and a sprayer for the back of the 4-wheeler.

Many thanks, as always!


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## Allen W

Remedy is good stuff. I've never sprayed with it but have been using a basal application on scattered small trees, and some not so small. Don't have any persimmon so can't say about it, hedge, walnut, black and honey locust are done for the count. Bigger chinese elm occasionally are partially killed. Here is the complete label for Remedy Ultra, http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld7NR005.pdf Here is the main page they have the label for most chemicals, http://www.cdms.net/LabelsMsds/LMDefault.aspx?ms=1,2,3,4


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## SusyTX

godsgapeach,
I feel your pain! Your pictures of the persimmons could be from our pastures, that's exactly what ours look like thanks to previous owners' cutting. Remedy is on our list of things to do, also recommended by a neighbor farmer. I'm still trying the 'cut them to the ground with loppers and see what happens' experiment before I resort to Remedy, and may try one organic product just to see if it works (we're trying to stay as natural as possible). 

We're in a terrible drought here (but we got rain today!), and those persimmons are the greenest, healthiest looking things in our pastures.


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## godsgapeach

SusyTX I'm so sorry you're dealing with the same thing! I can tell you that lopping doesn't do a single thing to help--I've lopped, mowed, lopped, mowed and they just keep spreading. Underground there will be roots that can go up to 20 feet from a parent tree and sometimes up to 7 more shoots will come up at the end of the root. They're highly invasive!

I'm thankful to have hope for Agman's recommendation!


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## wstevenl

Are these real persimmon trees... that will eventually have fruit? We have a couple of big persimmon trees that the hogs love to be under in the fall but the rest of the year that area is mowed. I'll bet that if your cows are grazed in small enough paddocks, they will eat the leaves and other weeds too.


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## godsgapeach

We'll see when we get the rotations set up, wstevenl. They do bear persimmons and the deer, birds, and coyote love the fruits (that's part of the problem). When I was a kid there was a huge persimmon tree near the barn at the lot. I think it started the whole issue. I don't remember the random stands of saplings we have now.


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## agmantoo

I also have a persimmon tree that is large in the pasture. It bears fruit each year yet i only have a sprout or two that I can identify. I am not all that knowledgeable when it comes to IDing sprouts but I had the same question as to whether this is the same sapling that grows into the tree that I have. I even made a trip to where there is one sapling growing under the fence to make a comparison. The persimmon sapling at my place does not have the reddish tinge but that could be due to an age or location difference. I am confident that the Remedy application will do away with the plant regardless of specie.


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## wstevenl

Wondering myself, what Greg Judy's pastures look like now, I emailed him and after some conversation he sent me some pictures of his mob entering a new paddock. 
This is not what most would consider a nice hayfield but my guess would be that the cattle enjoy it and it looks like they are keeping good body condition on it. This is not fertilized, clipped, drug, etc. just grazed and regrown. 
This has all been mob grazed, trampled, and soiled as is being done now, but it will have plenty of time to regrow and will to so faster because of the mature root system. You'll notice some "weeds" but the majority of the tall stuff is red clover, from what I can tell. 

Again, it may not be what some people would want, it's not as pretty as your uniform grass paddocks Agmantoo, but it is what it is. 

Tonight I'm going to take a picture of an ungrazed paddock that has super tall foxtail and some pigweed then I'll take another one tomorrow after grazing it to show how they take care of the grass AND the weeds.


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## Allen W

comment removed


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## agmantoo

wstevenl
Greg Judy's cattle look great! He is in zone 5b if I am not mistaken. Whereas the clover in the picture is apparently in the peak of blooming mine has just finished maturing and the seed heads are drying. I am about to enter the most difficult month(Aug) of the year for my operation. In your conversations with Judy did he comment on how many acres he requires for a year to support a cow/calf to provide fresh forage in season and stockpiled feed when the paddocks are dormant?


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## wstevenl

I haven't gotten the cows per acre figure yet.


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## wstevenl

So, at this point in our rotation we are covering ground that had quite a few bare spots this spring. Those bare spots allowed volunteer grasses, pigweed... and just a little lambsquarter to establish. The cows are doing a good job of cleaning up the area (It's really only one end of each paddock) and I look forward to seeing how the reqrowth looks. 
















After one day of grazing.....









There are still alot of stems, most trampled but nearly every seed head and leaf has been removed from the weeds. Now that there as been foxtail in the last 5 or so paddocks I have noticed that they devour the foxtail first... it's obviously their favorite despite the fact that their is abundant alfalfa and orchard grass. 

I just got a reply from Greg Judy... He said they require 2.4 acres per Animal Unit (1000lb) cow per year with no input other than fence and cows.


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## Curtis B

agmantoo said:


> Since your operation is subject to chance I suggest you consider only access lanes and let the cattle return to the nearest source of water rather than installing a system at this time. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Sorry for the long delay with my questions and answers, I am a visual learner, so reading and understanding can take some time(which I never seem to have). I also am not able to put my thoughts into words very well so please bear with me. When you are saying access lanes are you meaning that I should have long "padocks" that lead to one central location for water? On the size you want it to be big enough to allow the cattle to graze for a pre-determined amount of time and then move... right? The number of padocks would then be determined by how long it takes for the forage to regrow....right? Sorry for the repeat questions, but for some reason this is reminding me of Calc 2.


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## agmantoo

I have a typo in the quote....Since your operation is subject to chance I suggest you consider only access lanes and let the cattle return to the nearest source of water rather than installing a system at this time. /QUOTE] .....the word change needs to replace chance!

Most rotational grazing is done in fixed size paddocks. My proposal is to have variable size paddocks. IMO, the best layout is with long parallel strips that are enclosed with wire on the sides. The length then can be adjusted in size using the polywire mounted on pigtail stepin posts. To give the cattle access to water, shade and shelter a parallel lane can be created beside the grazing paddock strips. The width of the lane can be either narrow or wide based to the lay of the land and the needs of the producer. Narrow lanes will obviously wear rapidly and be more subject to erosion. Wide lanes afford dual use, as a lane and possibly as a paddock itself.

____x________x_________x______x_____

PADDOCK

____x________x_________x______x_____
__LANE_______x_Water___x______x_____

PADDOCK
____x________x_________x______x_____

The wires that enclose the lane can be raised and supported by a PVC pipe with a V cut into the end. As the cattle move through the paddock area allocated, the wire to the lane would be raised nearest where the cattle are grazing and the cattle could move under the wire to water, shade or shelter by using the lane. The allocated paddock area would be adjusted based on need to meet the feed requirements.

The number of animals and the size of the area to be grazed needs to be balanced to the ability of the land to produce. Ideally the grass needs to be able to recover from a grazed down height of 3 inches back to a 6 plus inches height before regrazing. More regrowth is desirable but not always achievable. I like to have a rest period that exceeds 30 days or longer. 

If I am unclear do not hesitate to ask for clarification.


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## francismilker

WOW! This thread should be retitled "marathon" or "the gift that keeps on giving"! There's some pretty good info here!


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## Curtis B

Agman that does help. If I am understanding correctly a person would then need about 30 paddocks (assuming a daily move) plus an additional number for stockpiled grass for those of us that have an actual winter. I am concerned about the over use of the lane that would contain the water, so I may still consider movable water in some areas. No more livestock than my property would allow I think it would be managable. The more I think of what I want to type the more I can visualize how I could layout and how it will work, so this is getting more and more helpful. I am officialy on a mission to prove my in-laws wrong.


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## wstevenl

You're mostly right but to get those 30+ usable paddocks, you may only need 1 or 2 permanent paddocks. We have 2 long rectangles with water hook ups down the middle and then we run a water hose to a small trough with a float valve. When I say small, I mean small. It probably only holds 10 gallons if full to the brim, but the cows never drink all at once and it starts refilling as soon as they drink any. This way it's small and easy to move and it stays cool. 

As agmantoo said, those large or long paddocks will then be divided each day with polywire, polytape, or even wire if you want to deal with moving it. (I believe Salatin still uses wire). So, you'll need an arm full of posts that you push in with your foot and they hold electric wire, most people use posts that look like they have a pigtail on the top but O'Brien makes an all plastic post with clips that is strong too. You'll also need 3 reels with enough polywire to cross your main paddock. 

Everyday you make a paddock in front of the cows and allow them to enter it by pulling back a wire and calling them in, or using a lane as Agmantoo does. 

Once you get started you'll be so happy with it!


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## agmantoo

Curtis,
Here in zone 7 as Summer concludes and Fall is underway we get a Fall spurt of growth similar to what occurs in the Spring. I know that this Fall growth will end as Winter arrives. Therefore, I reduce the size of the paddocks and graze them more thoroughly and down to about 2 to 3 inches. The weather still has not turned cold for fescue and the grass in the grazed paddocks will grow some on the warmer days. I will bring the cattle back to these areas should I run out of grass in the stockpiled areas. The cattle, having come out of warm weather where their feed needs were not as great and plus they have put on weight since Spring, do not need as much feed so I can get them by and at the same time conserve grass. This will let the stockpiled grass continue to grow and accumulate. I am going to make a gut feel statement that I cannot factually substantiate....In zone 7 on fescue and clover forage, I am of the opinion that if you measure the area allocated for 24 hours and graze that properly you can make a calculation for future needs by multiplying that area by 1.5. For example, if you can rotationally graze 10 cows on 10 acres during the grass growing season, then 15 acres will carry the herd year around. As the growing season shortens, based on the zone, the multiplier would have to be increased.


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## ds40

Agman, when do you overseed your fescue and ryegrass?


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## agmantoo

ds40,
I received part of my seed (crimson clover) this week. The Marshall ryegrass should arrive in a couple of weeks. I will start overseeding near the end of August. Additionally, I have some fescue seed that I harvested and I will broadcast those seed in Sept. on areas that are thin, mostly newly seeded areas that are drought impacted. We are way dry at this time.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I have another favor to ask of you.

Daddy got the Remedy for the Weed Wiper and he'd like to know your friend's recommendation for surfactant and at what concentration/percentage he'd mix it. 

When he asked here at the extension office they just said diesel. There's no way--might as well sprinkle it with dollar bills--there are just way too many to do that. And the guy he talked to at the feed store where he bought it couldn't remember what to suggest.

Thanks as always!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
I guess you will be using the spot sprayer on the Gator?
Here are the contents
Remedy 2 pints 
Water 20 gallons
Hook surfactant 6 ounces

Here are the directions. The directions need to be adhered to closely
Put 1/2 of the water in the tank Note...do not get any water in the Remedy container
Start agitation...lock the spray wand and spray back into the tank
Add the Remedy slowly
Add the remaining water...keep agitating
Add the Hook surfactant

Use of product
Agitate as much as possible
Wet the entire plant
Do not save any unused product, spray the entire contents within a couple of hours of mixing.

At this time of year and the rate of application of the herbicide you 
should kill 50 plus percent of the persimmons with one spraying. You may have to spray the survivors again in the Spring.

!!!! I missed the Weed Wiper in the first sentence !!!!! I will have to make an inquiry!!!!


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## godsgapeach

Thanks a million, Agman! Yes we're going to try out the wiper this time around--we might also have to spot hit some of the trees that are too near the fenceline with the tank on the 4wheeler.

So the "recipe" is the same for the wiper as the regular spray tank? 

Thanks, thanks, thanks!


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach, I am going to have to get back to you on the weed wiper. My contact is not reachable at home.


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## godsgapeach

No problem. It's threatening rain tonight and there's supposed to be a better chance tomorrow. 

I appreciate the help as always!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
The answer is not what you want to necessarily hear. Reviewing the pic of the persimmon sprouts, the recommendation is to use the small sprayer instead of the weed wiper. Due to the amount of foliage and the height of the plants he feels that you will not get enough herbicide onto the bark portion of the the sprouts and onto the leaves with the weed wiper at this time of year. There was also a discussion regarding the mix having enough agitation in the weed wiper. Without adequate agitation the remedy could clog the applicator.


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## godsgapeach

It's not a problem Agman. We'll do what we have to--the goal is to get rid of the persimmons, not just try out the weed wiper. 

Thanks again!

Oh, did you get any of that rain yesterday?


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## agmantoo

yes, we got some rain, maybe a 1/2 inch. However it remains cloudy and that has helped. The pastures look fairly good considering the little rain over the last 2 months and the time of year. I was enjoying the cool of the evening last evening and I took a pic of the herd. Here is what things look like


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## godsgapeach

I'll be glad when I can enjoy seeing our herd in one place like that, Agman. I had to get 3 heifers out of my garden yesterday a.m. They were trying to finish off what the grasshoppers haven't eaten.


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## agmantoo

Wstevenl was kind enough to share the following information received from Greg Judy
"I just got a reply from Greg Judy... He said they require 2.4 acres per Animal Unit (1000lb) cow per year with no input other than fence and cows."
I decided to be more consistent and use the same "yardstick" and convert my operation into Animal Units also. I did the research and obtained the rating for beef animals converted to animal units. Then I did two different counts on the herd to get the best determination of what comprises the herd at this date. The results converts to 127.5 Animal Units. Using that data, I have done the calculations and concluded that I am able to rotationally graze here in western NC, growing zone 7, approximately 1 Animal Unit for 365 days/year on 1.26 Acres of mainly endophyte infected fescue and clover forage . I do feed salt and mineral supplement.


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## agmantoo

The worst month for rotational grazing here is about to conclude. It has been less hot this year but moisture has been lacking. The seven county area where I live in western NC was declare a drought area this past week. We were fortunate enough to get a shower yesterday afternoon. Most of that moisture has dried by late this evening when I moved the herd. I spent some time going over the farm planning where I will overseed in the next few weeks provided we get more rain. It is time for those in zone 7 and south that are going to fertilize in order to stockpile to consider getting the nutrient on the ground. As soon as ground moisture improves it will be time to sow for winter forage. I will be distributing crimson clover, marshall rye and fescue. The crimson will go over top of existing good stands of grass and the rye and fescue will go in thin areas. After broadcasting the seed I plan on dragging the harrow to break up any remaining cow patties and I will clip the seed heads off any escaped weeds. To demonstrate how great rotational grazing promotes regrowth I took a picture of the area that was grazed in July. As stated above it has been dry but the recovery is worth sharing IMO. My neighbors, conventional cattlemen, are feeding hay.


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## Farm 36

I am running a little short on grass I believe . I live in WI so the year is finishing up and I have steers that will be sold at the sales barn when the grass is gone because I have no winter accomadations for them and I dog sled in winter.I was wondering if I could plant rye grass or somthing else now and would I get enough forage (6 to 10 in) to help with the stortage of grass and stay longer .The weather now is 80 in the day and 60 at night and will get cooler from now on . We don't get much snow and usually no snow till after thanksgiving.The first frost is in the first week in Oct that will be a killing frost for corn to make silage.If I plant in the pasture grass will it ruin next years grass. Can I spread on top and will it grow or does it need good soil to seed contact and have to use a notill drill.I dont have much for equipment or no equipment just a JD 70 with no 3 point. I have 15 250 lb steers on 4 acres that is heavy ground some of the best in the states heavy black clay. If this post needs to be moved that is fine but this post has a lot a traffic and has a lot of ideas to help others .


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## agmantoo

I am unaware of anything to plant in the short window of opportunity between now and frost in your area. As a rotational farmer with a sole grass fed approach I am going to make a recommendation that is inconsistent. I suggest that you buy some bulk corn. using a single strand of hot wire place 15 piles of corn about 1 lb each under the wire. You may have to initially add some sweet feed to get them started. It may take the calves some time to get adjusted to eating the corn but they should eat it. The corn added to the diet will cause the calves to reduce the intake of the grass that you have. The corn should be rather cheap and it will put some gain on the calves quickly that will let you recoup the price of the corn and should enhance the value of the calves at sale time. Once the calves start eating the corn you can increase the amount given. Do not fret over the calves passing a few kernels of whole corn as this is a cheap but effective means of increasing the weight gain and extending the grass available.


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## Farm 36

You think I can recoup the grain fed. The steers are jerseys and This fall I am hoping to get above 40cent and if I get above 60 cent I will be smiling. Around here if it's not black you start to go down from there . Then pure beef than fat hol that are on grain diet.than hol that look nice and then jerseys and last guersey and you will lose money on them. It also seems that the need to be above 400 and the closer to 500 to get the best price or most profit for your work . Mine are going to be light and the fall market will be light and I need a buyer that knows that a feed jersey will go prime . When I put a pencil to buying feed everyone else starts to make money and I get to do the work Thanks agman you bring a lot to the table and keep an open mind to getting a profit The wheels in you head seem to keep turning


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## RBC81

I have read this thread from start to finish over the last few days. Thanks to everyone for all the info. It filled in some gaps and made me think about a few things as well. I have about 45 acres of pasture in West Tenn. I am looking to start a rotational grazing system as time and money allows. Again thanks for all the info.


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## agmantoo

Farm 36
Provided you can buy the corn from a farmer at or close to market price I would think worst case is break even. Best case I would think you would have a weight gain at 30 cents per lb and I would think the calves would have a better appearance to a potential buyer. Have you considered trying to sell them privately? I monitored the local sale barn last week and you are correct that dairy breeds were not selling all that good. Regardless, do what you think is best and good luck!


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## agmantoo

RBC81
Welcome to the site!
Rotational grazing is a low cost start up program for those wanting to be in the cattle business. Do you think you will finish cattle for private sale or the sale barn or do you plan on being a feeder calf producer? Any thoughts on the breed?


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## RBC81

Short term I think I will finish the few steers that I have. But I think I will end up producing feeder calves, and pehaps finishing 1 or 2 a year for myself and family.


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## godsgapeach

Welcome to the thread RBC81. As I'm sure you can tell, Agman has shared a wealth of information! Any questions you have will probably help the rest of us too. So fire away!


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## bruce2288

farm 36 You could plant turnip this time of year and have some grazing in45 to 60 days. About 3 lbs/ acre cost $6 per acre. They grow really well in the fall and will survive moderate frosts and keep growing. I'm planting 25 acres tomorrow. Oats or rye would be another option.


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## RBC81

Agmantoo,

About half of the pasture is fenced nad subdivided. I take the existing sub divisions and poly wire and make a start rotating the pastures. There has been very little done to control weeds over the last couple years, so I have a pretty good stand of bitterweed. If I keep the tops knocked off of these and let the cows graze the pasture should come back shouldn't it. I would prefer not to use chemicals if i can avoid it. What suggestions would you have for getting the pastures to come back. They are a bermuda, clover fescue and other unidentified grass/weed mix.


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## agmantoo

RBC81
All my neighbors with cattle have heavy infestation of bitterweed. I have seen a total of 5 bitterweed plants on my beef farm this year. They are not in the pasture but are beside the driveway to the rental house on the farm. However I cannot give explanation as to why I do not have any bitterweed . I have never sprayed my main forage areas, just the fence lines. This fenceline maintenance was done mainly to stop the adjoining farms encroachment of privet and briars. I now have a rotary cutter that will cut under the fences so I have stopped that spraying. Unfortunately, I am losing the battle with the privet since I cannot reach the main trunk from my property. For rejuvenating a pasture I sound like a broken record so here goes. Never plow. The best soil on your place is on the surface. It is imperative to correct any PH problem should one exist. That needs to be done ASAP. I do not think you stated where you live. It is now time to plant crimson clover in areas where it will grow. Getting a good stand of legumes will reduce the need for purchased nitrogen. I have ceased to buy commercial fertilizer and if anything the pastures continue to improve and the money stays in my pocket. If you have access to chicken litter I strongly suggest applying it. You do not need a lot of machinery for maintaining the paddocks. I do recommend having a tractor mated to a rotary mower and is capable of pulling a drag harrow of sorts. A seed slinger is a must. I use one on a 4 wheeler for this purpose as it does not compact the soil. I probably go overboard with preventing soil compaction. If the ground is wet and I have visitors, I ask them if they mind walking to see the farm and cattle! All seed that I use are applied through overseeding. Overseeding is such a simple and low cost method that you can justify applying 20% more seed to compensate for those seed that do not make contact with the soil. I do not want the "rows" that are created with a drill. I want some desirable forage growing on nearly every inch. These thick plantings will choke out the undesirable plants and couple that to the rotary cutter being used to never let those undesirable plants go to seed will give you the results you are wanting to achieve. It will take 3 years to reach that goal. During this period you will gradually observe the plants that are best suited to your place establish. Many of these plants are already there but may be suppressed. Those additional plants that you want to balance with the existing ones can be slowly overseeded and evaluated. I try to plant some new-to-me forage nearly every year.


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## agmantoo

Farm 36
I should have elaborate on my suggestion to use the corn. I realize that your existing forage should be growing at this time but the cattle are readily consuming the growth. I would like to see you isolate a large portion of the grazing area and let the pasture recover some before frost. The energy needs of the cattle are not that high yet and with the corn and a reduction of forage the calves should continue to thrive. If 3/4 of the grazing area can recover that will take you farther into cooler weather as that forage is already established.


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## RBC81

Agmantoo,

I have been looking at subdividing my pastures as you have outlined. My concern is that with the few cows that I have I will have more acreage in "lane" than the cows daily ration of grass. When they are close to water this will not be much of a problem. But as they get further away from the water my concern is that I won't be able to keep them from selective grazing. Of course the easy answer is to keep the water closer, but that is easier said than done. If I haven't said earlier, I only have 3 steers (600-650 lbs) and one heifer. They are all registered black angus. The heifer is going to fit into the frame size that you suggest. Hopefully in the spring I will be able to double the size of the herd and this problem will be less of a problem. Is there something that I am missing about rotating pastures using lanes. I had thought about trying to rotate a circular pattern around the available water sources (shallow ponds), but property lines and topography will make this a little difficult. 

Also I have only about 45 acres in pasture, but there is almsot twice that in mature forest, with a lot of open grass areas under the canopy. Do you have any feel for what a stocking rate in these forested areas might be. 

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated


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## agmantoo

RBC81,
As you realize that cattle tend to walk one behind the other and depending on the herd size the path that they create can become a ditch. At this time with your herd size simple narrow the lane to suit. I know that my lanes will not hold up with continuous traffic but I also know that it is the richest soil on the farm. I am able to partition the lane with the polywire in a similar manner as the paddocks. You can also partition the lane to resemble a 2 lane highway and alternate which side the cattle are permitted to use as the travel from the water to various paddocks. In so doing you can rest or graze the lane in whatever manner you decide. Starting at a water source in the lane, I force the cattle to graze the lane where I want them to graze. I will have some back grazing and abuse of the lane as they are allow to graze farther from the water but I do manage to get some dual use out of the land knowing that I will reseed most of the lanes both Spring and Fall. Since I have more than one water source, I can rest a lane for up to 30 plus days. Using a circular pattern can be made to work but not efficiently IMO. As you get near the center of the circle the area gets too tight to work machinery and the manure builds up excessively also as cattle will loaf near the water. Grazing in forested areas is a controversial subject. I do it! My cattle need shade plus they will eat leaves and acorns. I had a person to tell me that the cattle damage the root zone of the trees and that my trees were already harmed. I had the state forestery dept rep here for another purpose and asked him to evaluate the hardwoods that are fence in. He said they appeared fine to him and he had no advice other than to continue as is. I do allow the cattle to eat acorns, something that others absolutely state not to do. Again, if the cattle are permitted to consume acorns as the acorns start to mature and gradually fall to the ground I have never witnessed a problem. To turn a hungry animal onto a mass of acorns could be another story. As far as leaves, the cattle seem to enjoy them. The understory of the timbered area is clean as high as the cattle can reach. I have read that in Australia that during a drought that cattle were fed for 2 months on tree leaves only and managed to survive in fair condition. I would not include the tree'd area as part of the grazing area in my calculation for stocking rates. Instead I would use the area for emergency use to supplement the paddocks.


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## Allen W

The only problems with oak, black jacks are the prevalent type in this area, I've heard about involved a lack of other forage. The cattle were eating the leaves off the trees.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I've finally got my list made out to order my fencing gear. (FINALLY!)

Can you look it over and see what I've forgotten? Of course I have more questions too.

Here's what I've got:

Endposts (wood)
Posts 1 Â¼&#8221; x 60&#8221; (planning to go with Powerflex and the tallest 1 1/8 ones are only 54")
HT wire 12.5g 180 psi x 4000&#8217;
Pins 12.5g
Insulators
Pigtail posts
Polybraid 9-strand 
reels

side cutter pliers
Voltmeter
Parmak Rangemaster charger

Now for the questions:
What length polybraid would you suggest? They've got 660', 880', and 1320'. Do you usually purchase a longer roll and then cut when you fill a reel to a certain point?

How many reels do you keep ready?

Thanks as always! Hope you and yours are doing well!


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## agmantoo

Hi!

Endposts (wood)...What insulators are you using with the endposts? Porcelein doughnut type hold up for me.

Posts 1 Â¼&#8221; x 60&#8221; (planning to go with Powerflex and the tallest 1 1/8 ones are only 54")....I have one of those powerflex post to evalutate...unless you are in a low swag where there will be upward pull the the 54 " will be fine. You know you will have to drill the powerflex posts don't you?

HT wire 12.5g 180 psi x 4000&#8217; ....verify this wire will be grade 3 galvanized

Pins 12.5g....those are correct and remember to bend around the wire so the pins cannot be lost off

Insulators.....you will not need any for the powerflex

Pigtail posts...best bought from Lowe's, off the internet and sent to nearest store with no shipping fee.

Polybraid 9-strand....9 strand stainless steel....I have been having trouble finding the 9 strands

reels...For me, the cheap ones from Lowe's used to store extension cords

side cutter pliers...The $42 ones

Voltmeter....Look at ebay..My last one (Stafix) was bought at the place with the $42 pliers

Parmak Rangemaster charger...Good charger but keep the box should you ever need to return the unit for service. I suggest you also get a back up charger. A car battery type with a solar charger makes for a good backup and can function when/where power is not available

You do not have any fence tensioners on the list.

What about the wire sleeves and crimpers for splicing the high tensile wire?

Do you have a post pounder to drive the powerflex posts?

I buy the white 1320' lenghts of polywire and cut.

PS.....I forgot to ask do you have a lazy susan for the payout of the high tensile wire? It is an absolute must!

At this time I have 5 reels with about 400' on 3 and 2 with about 600'. I am doing some renovation to my layout. I am making as many of the paddocks as long as possible and I am trying some temporary lanes using polywire and pigtail posts. I hope to make maintenance on the pastures more efficient by reducing or eliminating anything that hinders tractor movement and removal of trash plants from under the remaining permanent fences.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agman.

Yes, I'm going to use the porcelain insulators on the wood posts--I can get those anywhere here.

As for the 54" posts, everything we've got is up and down so we'll probably just go with the 60s. I'll run it by Daddy though and see what he thinks. Is sinking a foot sufficient, ya think? 

And yeah, I'm planning to do the drilling and marking them at the sink level before we actually start pounding them in. At one time we talked about drilling 2 holes--one at the regular wire height and another at near ground level for litter spreading. About how far up should that lower hole be?

For the HT I was looking at one Kencove has called Galfan. Check it out at http://www.kencove.com/fence/Galfan_detail_WG18.php and see what you think. 

I haven't forgotten the pin instructions--but don't worry, I'll probably be in touch for more step by steps when we get to the actual fence installation. 

I've got Lowes for the pigtails and Powerflex for the pliers and voltmeter (it was on sale in August of course). And Powerflex has the 9 strand stainless braid too at http://powerflexfence.com/catalog01.18.html.

The best price I've seen on the charger is Jeffers.

I forgot about the tensioners--how often/and where will I need to place them? (never had to worry about that with barbwire).

We already have a spinner, post driver, and crimper.

I appreciate it!


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## agmantoo

You will need a tensioner between each pair of end posts and I would not want the end post much more than 1000 to 1200 feet apart maximum. Put the tensioner in the center of the pull for best results (I do not do that myself). I put the tensioner where I can best access it. : )
I will get you the height of the single wire tomorrow.
I would drill the holes after installation as the ground variations will cause you at times to place the wire higher or lower on the post.
I do not know the price difference between the 54" and the 60" powerflex posts but the shorter posts would work fine in places where the fence exerts down pressure. In places where the fence is trying to lift the posts at times the fence may pull the 60" out of the ground. If I have a posts that is pulled from the ground I will put a few hairpins through the lower part of the post and drive it and the hairpins into the ground. The hairpins will help anchor the post.
PS....do you have the sleeves for the 12.5 gauge wire and does your crimper fit those?


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## godsgapeach

Gotcha on the tensioners. Have you found some you like better than others (or some to steer clear of)? Or are they all basically the same?

On the posts, is 12" enough sink on them or do they need to be deeper?

I haven't gotten the sleeves yet, but the crimper has 4 slots--pretty much just like the pic of yours. (I didn't think about it before but Daddy had it to wire up all the water lines and such in the chicken houses.)

What do you think about the kencove wire?

Have a great one!


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## agmantoo

I buy the stainless steel tensioners from Kencove. I never buy the tensioners that require a crescent type wrench or ones that do not have a definite stop for both sides of the ratchet wheels. I want a complete rust resist tensioner and not a combination of metals.

The powerflex line posts should be fine and you can go deeper that that when I get you the exact height. I get number transposed and I want to be correct when I tell you. That height exposed is why I told you not to predrill. On the drilled post that I use. I seldom use the same hole location as I move along because of varying ground conditions.

I believe what I read about the wire and I think it is good. However, I think the freight is going to be a show stopper.


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## godsgapeach

Yeah, freight is going to be fun no matter what. Nobody here has the 180. Looks like it'll be just over the price of another roll of wire for all of it--just calculated it on their site. 
 But to put it on the truck with the pallet of posts from powerflex would probably be about equal since their wire is more to start with. I'll find out for sure when I call to ask questions.

Daddy does want to go ahead with the 60" posts since we do have plenty of hills. So I'm good with that.

edited to ask: About how many pigtail posts do you keep around?

Thanks for getting me the particulars!


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## agmantoo

I must have around 60 of the pigtail posts. I use them for lots of things such as for tying survey ribbon to when making layout changes. I carry a few in each tractor to hold the fence to the ground as I need to cross. You cannot have too many! They are about the best value for the money of all the supplies.

You can buy the Bekaert high tensile wire in the 200,000 psi tensile strength and it is fine, just a little harder to work with. The Bekaert wire should be available locally at around $89


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## godsgapeach

I just checked with Powerflex and freight on both the poles and the wire would be 166.00 but just the wire for Kencove is something like 122.

I'm thinking I'll stick with Powerflex for both


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## godsgapeach

Powerflex order is done! :bouncy: YAY!

One more question on the tensioners... Kencove has stainless with spring and stainless without. Which do you like better?


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## agmantoo

I prefer the ones with the spring. Also remember you need the Hayes tool to tighten the tensioners.


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## godsgapeach

Got it.

Can you tell me where you've found the Hook surfactant? We haven't been able to locate it yet.

Thanks again!


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## agmantoo

Contact these folks for the nearest to you source of Hook
http://www.atlantic-pacificag.com/


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## godsgapeach

I emailed late this afternoon. Maybe they'll get back to me Tuesday.

Have a great weekend!


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## agmantoo

There are a couple of phone numbers at the bottom of the home page


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## ramiller5675

Any ideas about running a hi-tensile wire along an existing barb wire fence?

I've seen references to why it 'shouldn't' be done, but what is the alternative if I share a boundary fence with neighbors? Some ideas I have come up with are some simple T-posts insulators, an independent single wire fence mounted parallel to the existing fence, or some sort of offset insulator that mounts to the barb wire. 

Any other thoughts?


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## agmantoo

I would go the parallel to the existing fence route you mentioned. I would use different posts however. The powerflex post referenced by godsgapeach in an above post would by my choice. The powerflex will not require any insulators and the hot wire cannot short to the post as can happen with tee posts. At each end or corner of the fence I would install a wooden post to tension for attaching the wire and tensioning. Throughout the fencing I would use the high tensile wire supplies as they will hold up very well. Kencove has a good inventory of these items as well as a training manual. Make certain that you buy a quality fence charger. Good luck


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## godsgapeach

I actually got an email back this morning from the Hook people. They're going to get back to me with sources.


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## agmantoo

Maybe if you tell them the size of your operation they will send you a sample. Did you read the description of the product at the website?


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
The height of the permanent wire for the paddocks will vary on what you intend to do.
If you plan on the calves to graze outside of the paddock wires to have access to better grazing than the herd you will need the paddock wires 36 to 40 inches high.

If you plan on the calves staying will momma and eating the same grass the height of the permanent wire should be 32 to 34 inches high.

Either way very young calves will manage to go under the wire.

At these heights the cows will be able to stick their head and neck under the wire and keep the partition fences clean of edible forages. You will have some weeds under the fence but the fence will require minimum weed eating to keep it clean. The perimeter fences will require more effort to maintain.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
As I stated earlier I am redoing some of my partition fences and it reminded me to share with you the need to keep your post in as straight of a line as possible. Stringing the high tensile wire on the small post is somewhat akin to the way the power company strings overhead power lines. In between braced post and in long straight lines are line poles. These line poles only carry the weight of the wire and do little if any thing to add any strength. As mention previously lay the wire to be installed on the ground and secure it to one of the wood end posts. Then pull the wire taut and use the wire as a guide for placement of the line posts. As you go over rough rolling terrain it is easlier to get a curve in the wire. Therefore just pound the posts in deep enough to support themselves and then go to the end and sight down the line to verify the run is straight. At this point it is easy to correct. Once the post are driven to the depth they will be left it is difficult to remove them. I know.
I installed this on Saturday, it is about a 900+ ft pull..


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## godsgapeach

That looks excellent, Agman! Thanks for all the legwork to help me out!

Thanks for the info on the wire height, too. I haven't asked Daddy what he wants to do yet, but I'll run the options by him and see what he prefers.

I did read the Hook description too and it sounds pretty good. Have you actually used it before? One of the guys who emailed (I emailed the "office" address and that guy sent it on to 2 others)--I think it was the plant manager from AR, gave me his cell number for more info. My only problem is that my laptop is having issues and I can't access the number right now. Maybe it caught the swine flu? 

If you don't hear from me for a bit it's because of the limited access to a computer. I'll check in when I can. But we'll also be out of town starting this weekend. I'm going to try to rest up before the REAL WORK begins!

I appreciate everything!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
Yes, I use the Hook surfactant. The big farms in eastern NC use the product and the farm manager from onr of them stated that as long as the product is available he will continue to use it because of the results. They did field comparisons and are convinced of its performance.


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## godsgapeach

One of the dealers called me yesterday and it's not close, but it is within dh's territory for work AND we're actually going through the town on Friday as we head to the beach. I'm going to try to stuff a few gallons into the car and then dh can get more as we need it on his next trip that way.

Thanks for the recommendation!

(and my computer is back up and running so I can at least keep up while I'm gone)


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## godsgapeach

Picked up the Hook today and yesterday afternoon the posts and the rest of the Powerflex order arrived. So I was able to check it out before we left town.

PLENTY of work ready for when we get home!


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## ds40

Agman update us on red river crabgrass, serecia and your rye grass. If you please.


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## agmantoo

The Red River crabgrass has produced seed and I have turned the herd onto the areas seeded and they appeared to have enjoyed eating it. I was concerned that they ate the RRCG too close but we had a small rain shower and the RRCG is rebounding nicely. I am satisfied and may plant more in the future.

The serecia is about 14 inches tall and is blooming in the very top. I allowed the cattle onto a portion of the serecia just yesterday and they ate the top 4 to 6 inches off and left the rest. I got a very good germination on the serecia. I thought the cattle would have eaten it better than they did but they had a lot of forage to chose from. If the cattle were more restricted to what they had to graze I feel they would have eaten the serecia better. In droughty times I think the cattle will readily graze it.

My rye grass seeds were delivered late, arriving only yesterday along with a bag of the forage radishes. I managed to get both broadcast planted (approx. 22 acres) today and rain is in the forecast.  

The existing and established fescue has responded to the recent rain and I will overseed a few small areas tomorrow, weather permitting. The fescue came through the Summer in better condition that I previously thought considering we had a dry 10 week mid and late Summer. I am seeing the clovers getting a fresh start with the rains also. Overall, the forages look good except the color is not as green as I would like in a few places. I seem to have an uneven distribution of manures in some of the paddocks. It is still rather early the growing season for the cool weather forages and they may improve with time.


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## agmantoo

I previously mentioned that I use a Herd seeder mounted on a 4 wheeler to broadcast small seed. I have been satisfied with the results but the adjustment on the seeder was very frustrating due to the inability to fine adjust the rate of seed delivery. With some of the legume seed prices exceeding $3 /lb and as much as $8 /lb for some grasses and in some cases the rate of seed per acre is very low at 2 to five lbs/acre the combination is either costly or plagued with over or under seeding rates. Today I fixed the problem! I bought a 1 to 2 inch micrometer and replaced the poorly engineered factory metering device. I can now measure the largest dimension of a seed and get a rough idea of the opening required. I can accurately set that dimension and then I can fine tune that setting in accurately read dimensions and know what the setting is in thousandths. I can also shift to different seeds and later switch back and set the unit to a previous setting that worked.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, have you gotten any rain out of this system? We've had over 10 inches in the last week. One things for sure, it with all this rain, driving the posts won't be as difficult!

And by the way, my "Special" pliers came today!


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## agmantoo

Yes, we got rain! Not as much as you folks but more in the 2 to 3 inch range over several days.I was wondering if you got started with the fencing and ended up thinking you could probably push them in like a pin in a pin cushion.

I managed to get the forage radishes planted before the rain started and 5 days later I can see 2 small leaves as they emerge. Additionally I have sown (broadcast) Marshal ryegrass in order to boost the amount of future forage. Not knowing what the weather holds for the Winter I tend to get a little unnerved this time of year even though I know all is OK regarding the forage needs. I ordered more ryegrass seed as insurance just in case. The price of ryegrass seed to that of baled hay makes for a bargain. I can grow many equivalent bales of hay for less than the price of a single bale.

As I travel over the farm "checking things out" I can see the season changing daily. I am going to recommend that you hold off spraying the persimmon sprouts to Spring. The herbicides will remain good in storage and you can hit the sprouts when they are the most vulnerable as they leaf out. Time should be less of a constraint then IMO.

How do your pastures look at this time? I would think you should be able to restrict the grazing to smaller areas giving the remainder a chance to bolt with all the rain. You need to do that if circumstances permit. I am already isolating the areas to be stockpiled.

I also ordered a second pair of the pliers. The pair I received was a bit tight requiring extra time and created aggravation to use. I have oiled the pivots in an attempt to free the movement. You may want to do the same.


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## godsgapeach

I'm glad you got some moisture finally! 

I haven't started yet--we just got back in town Saturday night and it's pretty much been raining steady ever since. Another 60% chance tomorrow, too.

EVERYthing is green again pasture-wise. And I was thinking pretty much what you said about the persimmons. I didn't know if there would be any benefit to spraying now--before the first frost--and having the sap drop into the roots if we'd have less spring growth or if we'd just be better off waiting.

My priority though is getting the fence done. But both projects are a non-event until the rain stops!

I've not gotten the pliers out of their package yet, but I'll take that under advisement!

Thanks!


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## godsgapeach

BTW we had another 3 inches last night... Thankfully we're in a hilly enough area that we're not in the trouble some folks are in.


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## agmantoo

With the rain that we have received and the overseeding having germinated things have certainly greened here in NC. It is seldom that at this time of year that we have such an abundance. Only a portion of the paddocks seen in this pic have been fertilized with manure and no commercial fertilizer has been applied in years.


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## godsgapeach

I know what you mean, Agman. We got another 2 inches last night. Looks like we'll be a bit dryer this week though. Dh said he thinks we're only due 2 more inches to meet the "average" for the year. And what you've got there looks GREAT!

Going to be planning and planting the wood posts tomorrow...


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## ArmyDoc

godsgapeach,

Was thinking about the PCC bull you bought a while back and wondering how he is doing? Any pictures? How are the fences coming?


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## godsgapeach

He's doing great, ArmyDoc. When this rain stops, I'll see if I can get a current picture. 

The fences are coming slowly. Again with the rain, not able to get lots done at a time. But when I get something of substance worth a picture, I'll post it for critique.

Did you start your position in July as expected? Hope all's well with that.


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## ArmyDoc

now that the site is up again, did you have a chance for any pics?


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## agmantoo

I wanted to share how the recent heavy hurricane rains impacted my pastures. Here is a poor pic from my substitute cell phone in poor light conditions. This was taken late in the evening after I had just moved the herd. The second and 3rd pic was 24 hours later when I returned to move them to a new location.


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## godsgapeach

Wow, Agman. That's quite a difference! How much rain did you end up getting? How will that paddock recover? I mean how long will it take and how long will you avoid that area before returning the herd there?

It has certainly put a damper (no pun intended) on my plans for being done with the fencing by now! I managed to get everything bushhogged, since we'd decided not to spray the persimmons until the spring, but there were some times I thought for sure I was going to get stuck. Down at the bottom of the hill we've got standing water probably 6-8 inches deep by 10' by 20 yards.

Armydoc I'm not ignoring your request for pictures. I've not taken the camera into the field to bounce around in the gator. But the bull came to my yard a couple of days ago and I got a snap of him--the light is low so it's not the best. And, as you can see, we've not bushhogged on this end yet. But here he is:


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## agmantoo

Depending on whom is talking at the coffee shop, we got somewhere between 3 1/2 to 6 inches of water and the soil was already wet from a previous rain. Within a single growing season I expect to recover on this specific area. I will plant a variety of seeds based on the season. This is rich soil that was not suffering from compaction and that caused part of the problem. The root system was ideal for the forage that was growing there. That is why the animals were able to churn the ground into the muck. I will avoid grazing the area until the root system of the replacement plants (rye grass, cereal rye, fescue, clover) gets established. Optimistically, I expect to see new grasses emerging before Christmas. I already have the seed on hand and will probably use the ATV to seed the area. The ATV is so light that I can get on the wet land much quicker. I was there today but it was too wet. In a dry period I should be able to graze the area late next Spring. If it is wet, it will be into the Summer before the herd is permitted to access the area.


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
What brand and model seeder do you use. Have you had any difficulties with small seed feeding through?

Never mind I found it. Sorry!!

Ken


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## agmantoo

LibertyIIE
Did you see the modification that I made to be better able to set the opening accurately and repeatedly? I mounted a micrometer to set the stop. Now I know how much I have opened or closed the metering and I can also reset it the next time I want to sow the same seed. The factory adjustment was very crude and required a couple of small wrenches


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## LibertyIIE

Yes, I saw the micrometer and thought that was a very good idea. The seeder I am using now is an everyway and I doubt without a recalibration I can duplicate the seeding rate. I am planting yuchi arrowleaf clover but i am having to mix it with ryegrass seed to get it to feed through the feeder slots with out stopping up. Does your feeder present this same problem. I am planning on seeding in front of the grazing cattle and let them stomp it into the ground. Do you plant in front of the cattle or right behind the freshly grazed strip.

Ken


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## agmantoo

The Herd seeder does have a small agitator built inside at the metering device. If the seed are clean it will feed them regardless of size. I had another seeder and with no agitator it would clog as your does. Some of the seed are so expensive it mandates having a good seeder as the expense is soon offset with the seed saved.
I do not seed in front of the cattle as most of the time, other than early Spring,the paddocks are so tall that it is difficult to ride the atv. I do however let the cattle graze, then seed and force the cattle to walk back over the just grazed area to get to water. My best results come from seeding grazed areas, rotary cutting and then pulling a worn drag harrow. I can now seed and drag in a single effort with the tractor or I can mow and drag in a single pass. I plan as a future project to mount the seeder on the mower and then I can mow, seed, drag all at once. I no longer have a need but in the past I could dribble herbicide onto the blade of the rotary mower and spread the herbicide and mow in a single pass. I have shown several neighbors how to do this to suppress or rid themselves of persistent weeds such as bitter weed.


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
I have been in the cattle business for over 50 years and I have never heard of anyone dribbling herbicide on their rotary mower blades. Please tell me more.

I bought the powerflex post you recommended and I think they are the best thing yet.

Ken


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## agmantoo

To apply herbicide with your rotary mower(bushhog, brushhog, etc.) mount a holding tank on top of the mower. If the mower is equipped with a "stump jumper" round disc blade holder, drill a hole above the blade holder. The hole is best positioned about 6 inches in from the perimeter of the disc. Using a metering valve and a 12 volt solenoid valve plumb the tank to the hole in the mower deck. Arrange the plumbing to where metering valve is mounted to the deck hole and the solenoid valve immediately above that. The solenoid valve is then plumbed to the tank. Run a control wire to the tractor instrument panel area and locate a toggle switch conveniently positioned for the operator. Apply fused power to the toggle switch. OK, now we are ready to operate the unit. With the herbicide in the tank and using the rotary mower and approaching a weed cluster to be controlled turn the toggle switch on prior to reaching the weeds. Experience will tell you when to turn the switch on and off. Practice on dry pavement using water! The herbicide will be metered onto the backside of the disc and the turning disc will sling the herbicide on top of the disc onto the blades. As you exit the weed area turn the toggle switch off. The rig becomes a spot sprayer when used in this manner and with repeated use is very effective and you have accomplished two tasks in one pass. Do not use RoundUp in this rig as RoundUp is corrosive and it will rust your rotary mower. I mostly use 2 4 D.


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## LibertyIIE

Very unique approach to the problem. Now why didn't I think of that years ago.
I am corresponding with the Herd seeder company and am finding them very helpful. They suggest always mounting the feeder in the back. Probably a good idea because the grass in front of the rotation is KR bluestem that is from 34-36 inches tall. The grass does block some of the seed. The seeder that I have borrowed will only throw a 10 ft. wide path. Herd says theirs will throw a 20 ft wide path. Is this about correct?? I know seed size has an effect on distance ,but what have you experienced? I also like the stirrer in the seed box. The one I am using does not have this and I see that as a problem.

Ken


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## agmantoo

The herd seeder does throw the seed a good distance but so did the other unit that I have that does not have the stirrer. The herd unit is far better built however and does have serviceable parts. I bought the last seeder that the local distributor had that had a metal spinner for the distributing of the seed. The newer units now have a plastic one. I would buy a Herd seeder again. Sometimes these units show up on craigslist.


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## agmantoo

As we enter into another Winter, I want to share with the readers here how the stockpiled pastures and the cattle look. This first picture is the allocated area that was grazed yesterday. Notice the cow pats do not have much height. The forage they are grazing is high in protein.








The second pic is the paddock that will be grazed today








and finally here is a portion of the herd grazing their allocated forage. The herd totalling roughly 135 cows,heifers, calves are being given point 66 (66/100) acres per day


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## godsgapeach

Thanks again for the examples Agman. I'm at a complete standstill right now with fence progress. It's WAAY to wet to do anything. I got the little truck stuck last week (after a dry week) and Daddy got the big truck stuck 3 times with the cow trailer hooked up just Wednesday.

I've gotten wood posts dropped in holes full of water, but that's as far as we've gotten. It's too mucky to even begin to get them set. And more rain and yuck scheduled for tomorrow.


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## NW Rancher

Just a quick note to Agman and all the players in this thread to say thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate the time you all have spent on this and the knowlege shared. I have learned so much!

Matt


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## chris30523

Thanks for all of the info. I enjoyed reading this. We are looking at putting a few cows on our 28 acres. My only question is how do you get a traditional cattleman set in his was to accept something new?


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## godsgapeach

Chris, that was my issue originally. Thankfully my traditional farmer--Daddy--was willing to listen. He just had to be convinced that it can work--worth the time and effort to get it going. Going to see Agman's operation was a definite advantage.

My advice is to gain as much information as possible and involve them as much as you can. You might be surprised.


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## LibertyIIE

Agman,
Can you tell me what the stock density you are presently running. I know your cows avg 1000#, but can't guess the weight of the calves. The reason I ask this is I have been running a stock density of 150,000 #/ acre for the last three months and looks like the cows are eating about 80% of the standing hay. The rest they trample or mess on. I think I am in the ballpark, but would like your opinion. I have 10 acres of green oats that are currently 12 inches tall. As my cowpiles start to get taller I plan to time limit graze the oats 2 hrs ever other day. Oats one day standing hay the next till spring. Does that sound like a good plan??
Ken


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## agmantoo

Liberty, using the table 2 on this PDF http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/dickinso/research/1997/animal.htm I come up with 167,727 lbs of stock per acre. This is using the approximate current headcount and the area allocated (paced off for measurement). The pregnant mammoth donkey was not included but she eats with the cattle. 
I think you need to possibly reduce the area allocated. If you will let the herd on the stockpiled area and limit the area allocated and observe how much they can clean up in 45 minutes that will help you determine how much to give them. What area they eat in 45 minutes doubled for a 24 hour allocation should be close to meeting their needs. When you go to move them the next day observe the cattle closely. They should be waiting patiently (no bawling) but with a little anticipation of the new area being presented.
As for the green oats.....I know it is more work but I would rather see them have some each day plus hay. I would anticipate that your hay feeding period is roughly 90 to 110 days. If that is the case just calculate the area of oats to be grazed daily and give access accordingly. If you had rather not to have to move the cattle as much why not feed the hay now while feed requirements are low? Then, as the coldest of weather arrives and energy needs increase, switch to the oats and some hay and reduce the frequency of moving the herd.


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## LibertyIIE

Thanks for the advice. I think I will follow your advice on the freq. of feeding the oats. Oats for 2 hours and then standing hay the rest of the day.Enough standing hay to last them about 2 hours. The standing hay should keep them from scouring. Our normal winter feeding period is usually 90-120 days. I have enough rolls to feed them for that long but don't plan on having to use any of it. I try to learn as I go. I appreciate your input. I will have more questions later.
Ken


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## Allen W

Here is some good information from OK State on limit feeding high quality pasture to supplement low quality pasture.http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1924/F-3010web.pdf The small grains pasture information is on page 6.


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## agmantoo

Allen,
I read the entire article with interest. Feeding stockpiled fescue allows me to have a low cost source of fairly high protein most of Winter. I calve year round and would have some minor problems attempting part of what was discussed in the article. My largest weight loss is with first time heifers that milk too heavily and cannot maintain body condition during the late months of Winter. I have found that by maintaining the pastures in as high a level of production as justifiable that usually these heifers will have a compensatory weight gain once the pastures start producing. It is far cheaper to keep the cows in good condition prior to cold weather and to feed the high protein fescue than to feed purchased protein supplement. It would cost me more that a thousand dollars a month to follow the guidelines in the article. The article did not address the size or type of the cow other than by weight. I know from experience that I cannot maintain a 1200 plus weight frame 5+ cow or larger with my operation. What I promote is a cow that can keep herself in body score 5 off forage alone and produce a 550 to 600 lb calf without grain or supplement each and every year at minimal cost and labor input.


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## agmantoo

LibertyIIE,
I gleaned from the article submitted by Allen that there would be merit in the more frequent feeding of the oats/protein. They also referenced a 45 minute feeding period but somewhat different than I discussed earlier. That was most coincidental as that is the first time that I have seen anyone reference doing that. Do you have Fall or Spring calving? Would I be correct in thinking that you base forage is bermuda grass?


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## LibertyIIE

I have coastal bermuda in some areas. The stockpiled forage I am now feeding is KR Bluestem. It is approx 36" tall now. We just had our first killing frost last week. My calving season was Jan-Feb for several years. We then had a severe drought and due to some decisions I made that proved to be wrong I now calve year round. We only have a few days when the temp gets below 32 and then it is only for a day. Has not snowed here more than 3 or 4 times in my lifetime and I am 65.
The coastal or Tifton 85 which Texas A&M recommended for so many years was selected for its response to commercial fertilizer. I no longer buy commercial fertilizer except for the oats on a prepared seedbed. That works good but I am looking for a way around that. I am trying to render the knat that you refered to awhile back.
Ken


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## agmantoo

LibertyIIE
I am unfamiliar with the KR Bluestem but did some reading. I like its tolerance to drought but there are some characteristics that would concern me. How many months per year are you able to graze the KR Bluestem? Is there anything that you could do to minimize the amount of stem it develops? We have a plant call sericea lespedeza that has a stem but if I can keep it clipped the cattle seem to enjoy the foliage. The sericea tolerates poor soil of which we have plenty. I have found that it takes 3 years to wean my pastures from commercial fertilizer. It is a slow process in building a carbon layer. One key thing I have learned is to never ever turn the soil. Leave what carbon layer that does exist on top of the ground in place. One advantage that I have is that I can get the litter from a single chicken house, enough to fertilize 20% of the pasture per year. I depend on the cattle manure and clovers to provide the rest of the nutrients. Truly I did have my doubts as I ventured away from commercial fertilizer. Have you attempted to locate an alternate to commercial fertilizer?


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## ds40

Did you quit fert. cold turkey or one area at a time. I have a pasture that has produced very well without it this year. Others rec'd 50 lbs actual nitrogen for stockpile. Phos on my soils was very low 2 years ago so added 2 ton turkey litter. Was not able to get it this year. White clover is every where. Looking at your pictures and hearing how you grow grass has been very helpful. I thank you for it.

Mostly what I have discovered is that while my pastures are superior in my area, I still have a long way to go on stand density.


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## agmantoo

ds40
When the price if fertilizer went above $8oo/ton I got so miffed I quit applying commercial so quickly I almost backed up! I had on hand maybe 1 1/2 tons and I did not even apply that. It is still on the pallet as a reminder. It was my intent to reduce the herd size if I could not maintain the headcount without commercial fertilizer. I saw no reason to work and pass along all the income to those in the fertilizer business. I do enjoy my cattle and the farm but I refuse to not make a profit. I cannot control or even influence the sale price of the feeder calves but I can control what I do. I guess I should send the fertilizer industry a holiday card and thank them for what they forced me to do. Previously they were getting a nice slice of the income and now that portion is mine. With me, their greed backfired.
Hang in there with what you are doing, build yourself a carbon layer and treat it as a major asset. Keep the PH above 5.8. In three years your pastures will astonish yourself. PS...where are you located?
I enjoy reading and learning. The most interesting topic that I have researched in the last few years is regarding Terra Preta. When time permits everyone interested in growing amazing pastures needs IMO to read about this marvelous discovery.


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## LibertyIIE

Agmantoo,
The KR Bluestem was developed on the King Ranch in south Texas and is very drought hardy. If grazed properly it will not get stemmy. This got stemmy in the stockpiling process. 
There are quite a few large chicken houses in this area, but the litter is in much demand. The area I have stockpiled is an area that has never been plowed. It has been in pasture for over 100 years. The KR Bluestem that is there just drifted in on the wind. It grows in all the bar ditches in this area. After a 15 month drought , it was the first grass to spring back from the rain.
Ken


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## ds40

1 hour north of Springfield, Mo.


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## ramiller5675

agmantoo said:


> ...The most interesting topic that I have researched in the last few years is regarding Terra Preta. When time permits everyone interested in growing amazing pastures needs IMO to read about this marvelous discovery.


Any ideas about how to apply Terra Preta techniques to a pasture?

I have experimented with Terra Preta by adding charcoal into the composting process and then applying this Terra Preta compost to the garden. I have also experimented with giving chickens access to piles of charcoal that they then consume (similar to grit), which produces a charcoal-rich manure (for lack of a better description). If a pastured chicken operation combined with a charcoal application could be rotated around a pasture, it might be possible to create a Terra Preta effect.


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## agmantoo

ramiller5675
From the reading I have done there has not been a successful reproduction of the terra preta to date. I understand that a lot of research is ongoing and that the opinion is that something is still lacking in the understanding of how terra preta either functions or originates. To me an analogy appears that terra preta is more similar to a starter yeast that is used to make sour dough bread. Once you have whatever it is that comprises terra preta it remains and endures for many years. As far as replicating terra preta I will have to leave that to the experts or luck into the method. The closest that I can come to creating something similar to terra preta is to recycle as much biomass and manure as possible and to plant nitrogen fixing legumes. I am a long ways from having terra preta but I am getting a lot of satisfaction from my efforts to date. Keep us informed of the successes you have.


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## agmantoo

The recent cold weather is taking its toll on the more succulent legumes in the paddocks. I notice today that some of the clovers are turning black and wilting. The more cold tolerant clovers are managing to hold on for awhile. 








The cattle have put on some weight with the fescue reacting the the cold weather and the carbohydrates converting to sugars. Here is a calf learning to eat along beside its mother. The calf is only 3 days old but it did have a few green leaves in its mouth. The calves learn a lot by growing up with their mothers and the herd.


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## Allen W

Agmantoo

This is in response to post #794 the fact sheet is accurate for practices in this area. Fescue is limited to very small niche areas here. It is almost unheard of to have any success with it. Too hot, too dry, to sandy soil who knows. What little bit I'm aware of that was successfully established was on tight bottom ground, with a shallow water table.

Here it is mainly warm season grasses such as native grass and Bermuda with love grass in some of the sandier areas and a fair amount of old world blue stem planted back on old crop ground. A lot of wheat and rye pasture is utilized here every year, which I think probably limits the push to develop any cool season grasses here. Our hot dry summers are hard on them too. Wheat grass is about the only cool season grass successfully grown here as far as establishing and maintaining a stand through the summer.


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## agmantoo

The storm blew in yesterday and I went early to give the cattle some new area to graze since I knew they would be having to use their muzzle to push the snow aside in order to eat. I was pleasantly surprised to find 2 new calves, particularly the red calf. This red calf is a result of the Murray Gray bull and a commercial black Angus cow. 









Here is the herd pushing the snow aside in order to access the stockpiled forage beneath.


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## francismilker

Agman, how many days can your cattle be on that type of snowpack without any hay/feed supplementation before they start losing body condition?


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## agmantoo

Francis, the cattle can hold body condition with no problem for an indefinite duration as long as I can provide forage as pictured. The issue is how long can I provide such forage as I allocate more grazing area to compensate for the inability of the cattle to efficiently utilize the forage in the paddocks. They tend to manure and trample more forage creating a wasteful situation with the feed. During conditions such as those above it will take 30 to 50 % more area to meet their needs. The way that I know their needs are being met is how they behave. If the cattle are quiet, no bawling, and they just casually walk into the new area being allocated, then I feel certain they are fine. The TV ad about contented cows are happy cows does contain some truth. As a note, I feel that keeping cattle in good body condition year around is key in having few health issues and will reduce the stress when circumstances shift for the worse for a duration. You may be interested in this. I have a milk cow in the herd and I am observing how she maintains condition. She is 1/2 Jersey 1/2 Holstein from a working dairy, was raised on replacement dairy cow rations, AI'd at 15 months, thought barren and sold to me for beef at 17 months of age, fed grass only for 7 months and calved at 24 months. Her calf is about a month old at this time. Here is a pic of her and if you will look in front of her you will see her steer calf (3/4 Jersey 1/4 Holstein), it has the white spot on the side.


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## francismilker

Looks like she has adapted well from what I can see in the picture.


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## SteveO

Evening all,
I finally bought a property with a house and shop not as big is I hoped but we all start somewhere.
So on to the question is 17 ac. large enough to use rotational?
The property is in western Tn is in pasture needs lime and clover for sure but is 50% fenced. I will do a couple of soil tests when I am down for the closing.The property has 2 ponds a well and city water We close next month but will not live there for a year. The existing neighbor has been cutting the hay for the owner and keeping it as far as I can tell. 
As soon as I can figure out how to do it I will post a picture to show the growth of what is there and the layout.
I would like a dozen or so cattle if the land would support it and do a cow calf setup and try to emulate Agmantoo in miniture.
Does it make sence and could it be self supporting at that size??:help:
Based on the equipment needs would it be about the same for 17 or 70?

If you could could you help with that list it would be appreciated:

SteveO


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## agmantoo

SteveO
Congratulations on your purchase. 
Rotational grazing can be done on about any size property. Matching the number of animals to the capability of the farm to produce forage is key. I did some research and western Tn and where I am in NC should be similar. A rotary mower and a seed spreader plus a tractor should meet you immediate equipment needs. I am not into mini machinery and I would want a 50HP tractor and at least a 6 ft rotary mower/bushhog. I would stop giving the nutrients of the fields away as hay immediately and start building a carbon layer with the clippings. At this time I am able to carry a cow and her calf on 1.3 acres for the full year. With feeder calves at $1 per lb and selling at 600 lbs you should be able to net nearly $500/calf sold once you get the positioned to control your feed costs. Initially I suggest that you hold the head count to 10 each frame 3 cows. Later you possibly can increase that number and maybe even buy some cheap hay for Winter and go to a higher headcount. Leasing pasture is rather cheap in some places also should you decide to increase your head count. Though you will not be self supporting this should qualify the farm for tax deferral and the income will go a ways toward the mortgage.


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## SteveO

Thanks for the feedback, 
I will start looking for used equipment any ones to stay away from in the 5-10 year old vintage??. From the looks of the seeder it should be new but pto or electric drive??
My freinds are to far to drive their equipment over to bushhog. So if i supply the equipment they would do it for me. 
As far as lime and clover. would you suggest lime powder now or in 6-8 months? Clover is planted in Feb. they tell me in that area. I would like to put animals on it fall of 2011. What would you suggest for a timeline??
I ran the numbers on addiing head and the hay costs for year round and even adding 5 head you end up with less in your pocket even though you sold 5 more animals. So 8-10 to start then if things go well then we will talk about bigger and better and just added hay in the winter.
I will try to get the layout out this weekend Agmantoo if you could look at it for a layout. I think you will find it will be a challenge.

Stay warm 
In MA tonight it is 5 and a 40mph gusts time to go South

Thanks
Steveo


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## SteveO

Thanks for the info all, 
I will start looking for used equipment any ones to stay away from in the 5-10 year old vintage??. From the looks of the seeder it should be new but pto or electric drive??
My freinds are to far to drive theirs over to bushhog it. So if i supply the equipment they would do it for me. 
As far as lime and clover. would you suggest lime powder now or in 6-8 months? Clover is planted in Feb. they tell me in that area. I would like to put animals on it fall of 2011.
I ran the numbers on addiing head and the hay costs for year round and even adding 5 head you end up with less in your pocket even though you sold 5 more animals. So 8-10 to start then if things go well then we will talk about bigger and better and just added hay in the winter.
I will try to get the layout out this weekend Agmantoo if you would look at it for a layout. I think you will find it will be a challenge.

Stay warm 
In MA tonight it is 5 and a 40mph gusts time to go South

Thanks
Steveo


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## agmantoo

With the tractor feedback I could start a controversy but here is my position. You do not need a new or nearly new tractor. A 20 year old well cared for tractor will suffice. what you do need is a tractor that has been stored out of the weather and has been driven sensibly and well maintained. I would want power steering and good brakes. A diesel tractor that starts readily is a must also. I do not want any unique tractor, stick with a brand that has been around. Just a plain manual shift, synchronized gears are nice, with a differential lock makes for a happy user. As a rotational grazer there will be almost no need for a front end loader and 4 wheel drive since there will be no hay to store stacked and you have no reason to be on the land when the soil conditions are bad. Emergency hay can be moved on the 3 point hitch with a cheap spear. You will be rotary cutting only when conditions are ideal in order to preserve the forage and the soil. As for the clovers the small Herd electric seeder can be powered from the tractor and the metering of the seed is precise enough to handle the smallest of seed (legumes). Apply agriculture lime as soon as the spreader truck can get on the ground, do not procrastinate on this. Buy your clover seed ASAP so you will have them when they are needed. Clovers can be planted other than Feb., depending on the clover. I plant Crimson in Sept. An aside, apply for ag use for the land ASAP also. Some states only have one month (Jan.) a year that you can apply to get property taxes deferred for ag use. By the Fall of 2011 your pastures should be the best in the county. You will want cattle going onto the pasture with body score condition 5 if late Fall or not less than 4 if early Fall and the Summer was wet. As you are just starting the process we need to allow some "fudge factor". I will review the layout.


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## agmantoo

Two weeks or so has lapsed since the snow and ice storm came through. Now we are hit with low temps from the cold front that has blown in. I have often touted the benefits of the fescue as a desirable forage even though many consider the grass a weed. This afternoon as I moved the cattle I was reminded as to why I like the fescue grass. In the cold the clovers are wilting and all other of my forages are about gone with the exception of the fescue which is hanging in an affording the herd with some great welcome January grazing. I am retaining more heifers than usual and will have to closely observe the consumption of the stockpiled feed as I have approximately 10 weeks to go before I see any Spring regrowth of forage. Here is what the paddocks looked like as the herd began grazing this afternoon.


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## wstevenl

Okay, I'm jealous. 
We took our cows off pasture this weekend and I'm hating feeding hay already. We have just a little Max Q Fescue in with our orchard grass and legumes and although the orchard grass did much better than last year, the fescue is nice in the cold!
We left a couple acres of bermuda with rye grass, clover, and turnips in it to graze first thing in the spring. I'm excited about being able to graze the bermuda early in spring and therefore adding manure and urine to it before the bermuda starts to take off in the summer. The turnips are probably not going to do much in the spring though because a couple of calves are going around and nipping them off.


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## agmantoo

For my location, Fescue remains the best forage producer even with its shortcomings. I have not to date come across a forage that has the lasting characteristics and the survivability of fescue. I have tried a lot of different plants and remain open minded to other varieties. Following rye grass emergence in the Spring will be the fescue. As weather warms, the fescue will outperform the rye and will continue to produce until hot dry Summer weather causes the fescue to go dormant. I have to keep the fescue from going to seed during the Spring but could make hay if I wanted it. The Spring flush of growth will exceed the ability of the herd to consume all of it. This is a herd size that is matched to the paddock area for the remaining seasons of the year. Come September the dormant fescue will return and again with adequate rain forming a burst of growth of forage for stockpiling creating the winter feed you see in the pics I posted. I can easily get 10 months worth of feed if moistue is adequate. The negative issues with the fescue are offset by the clovers I grow. I am unaware of any forage that can span 4 distinct seasons and remain productive as long. I know of pastures here in zone 7 that have been established for more than 25 years and still produce with some neglect.
Endophyte free fescues, orchard grass and bermuda grass produce here but they do not have staying power. My suggestion to anyone wanting to do extensive rotational grazing would be to research what forage grows best in their area that will provide 4 seasons grazing and to concentrate on maximizing that crop.


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## agmantoo

In post #817 I again promoted using fescue as I truly believe the grass has far more merit for cattle forage than it is given. Since posting the above I have come across some advertising information promoting a product that is suppose to overcome many of the fescue related shortcoming. I have "borrowed" the text as it better describes what is the supposedly negative side(s) of feeding fescue. Here is the content:

["Most tall fescue is infected with a fungal endophyte which can be harmful and even toxic to animals. If you're familiar with grazing endophyte-infected fescue you know the associated problems result from poor blood circulation that stems from ingesting large amounts of ergot-like toxins in fescue.

Fescue toxicosis most often occurs under heat stress in summer months. First, it can decrease feed intake, causing animals to lose body weight despite constant grazing. Weight gains have been shown to reduce .10 ADG for every 10% increase in endophyte infection level.

But that's not all. These toxins interfere with heat regulation and impair blood flow to the extremities, causing "fescue foot" and other symptoms. Livestock also experience low conception rates, poor offspring survival, produce less milk, have higher internal body temperatures and respiration rates, retain a rough hair coat and salivate excessively.
Here's what you can do about it.

* Begin grazing cattle on endophyte-infected pastures when grass is 4" to 6" tall, and graze to 1" stubble height.
* Clip tall fescue flower heads early to prevent seeding and cattle consuming seed heads.
* When harvesting endophyte-infected fescue for hay, take the first cutting when the grass is in the late boot or early heading stage of development. This will minimize alkaloid concentrations.
* Watch for signs of endophyte problems, such as cows standing in ponds." ]

I have to accept at face value that fungal endophyte exists as I am not technical enough to know otherwise. I do know however that either cattle develop a resistance to the fungal endophyte or that it is not the problem that is touted. My herd does not exhibit the problems associated with feeding fescue. Since fescue is the main forage and the only forage available once the clovers are killed off by cold weather and is the only feed before Spring weather becomes favorable for the clovers to reemerge, I accept that during this extended period that the endophyte must exist in nonharmful quantities. In the warmer seasons I grow clovers for the nitrogen contribution to the fescue and I do not permit the fescue to go to seed. Not preventing the heading of the fescue is NOT for the reduction of the endophyte but for the prolonging of the fescue remaining green and lush. I am not wanting the fescue to mature and go dormant.

I have not experience any foot rot (fescue foot) in any of the animals that have been in the herd in the last 10 years. I did have one case but it was with a purchased bull but he came to the farm lame. Once cured, he never had a re-occurrence. 

Cows standing in ponds is just that. It is meaningless IMO. It is something they do given the chance, be it hot or cold.

Offspring survival has not been a problem. Yes, I will lose a calf occasionally but the percentage (~3% this year with a number of first time heifers) against the herd headcount is very small. As I have said before, I am not a midwife to a cow and I do not attend the birthings.

The purpose of this post is just to keep everyone aware that fescue is not a forage that should be avoided if it grows/produces exceptionally on you place.


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## godsgapeach

Finally, finally, finally making progress. We've got many of our exterior wood posts set but we had to run a line of high tensile to mark the interior lane posts. We got one side of the lane marked and the post holes dug yesterday. We'd have gotten both sides done but there is so much slope especially in the lane that we had to set 10 or more posts (I lost count) in the 1500ish feet. Heading out to tamp them in today which will be some more fun. Some of the holes we dug 3 feet deep filled up with 2 feet of water. The ground has never been this saturated in my lifetime! And tamping mud is ... great.


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## godsgapeach

Yesterday we set the wood posts for the 2nd side of the lane--finished in the dark about 7:40. It's taking shape now. We'll have to add more wood posts for a few odd spots on the perimeter, but we're getting there.


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## ArmyDoc

Here's a nice article on rotational grazing. Have to admit it doesn't have a lot of info not already contained in this thread, but it is an informative read none the less. 

http://www.ourcoop.com/ourcoop05/headlines/viewNews.aspx?artID=2039

Agmantoo, any thoughts / comments?


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc,

I read the article with great interests! Many folks often comment on a particular author and his work because the writer agrees with their thoughts. This is the case with the article you linked to above. Mr Raymond Cooper and I share a lot in common. The single area where we disagree is on seasonal calving. He promotes the advantages of Spring calving and consequently will sell in the Fall and I promote year around calving and sell at least 4 times per year. I sold farm commodities into seasonal markets to long to not realize that when the market is flooded that prices drop and that a single payday per year has additional risks. Another slight difference is that I will permit my cows to drop a little weight during the Winter knowing that they will make it up come Spring. I have my herd size matched to my available Winter feed and to the feed that will be available during the driest months of the Summer. The Summer dry spells where I live can negatively impact any Spring born calves on my place as they will be big enough to be grazing heavily and needing good forage. Possibly Mr. Cooper supplements his calves. As most of you know I am 100% grass dependent. According to the article, in 2000 Mr. Cooper had 120 head of cattle on 277 acres. I have approximately 100 head of mature animals on 161 acres. Unless Mr. Cooper has increased his herd headcount he has room to increase his capacity IMO.


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## Farm 36

Agmantoo Do you run one bull or two? I know that one bull can handle your size of herd with 365 day calving interval but if he went on strike how would you know .


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## agmantoo

Farm 36,
I run one bull that is the primary sire. I see him every day and I observe his behavior. If there is a cow in heat and there is any action such as a cow riding another cow he had better be very nearby or doing the action himself. I always have a young bull of breeding or near breeding age and he should always be suppressed and observing from the side lines. Bulls do not hold up very well at my place. I buy the bulls that are to be the herd sire. Most of these bulls were grain fed and do not have the genetics to hold body condition on grass alone. The Murray Grey bull that I now have is doing better than the previous Angus bulls I have owned. The best bull that I have had was one that I retained and he is on loan and has been for 2 years. He is grass fed only and has developed into very much a masculine bull that retains body condition. However, he is the herd sire for a smaller number of cows. The probability is that I will bring him home after I get a number of heifers from the Angus/Murray Grey crosses. I have a number of older cows that I plan to cycle out of the herd near the end of 2010.


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## ArmyDoc

Agmantoo,

How do you deal with the young bulls? Do you band/cut them early so as to not have issue with them prior to shipping? Or do you just ship them early enough that their mating is a negligiable issue?

What are your feelings on castration in general - timing, method, or avoid it altogether?

Thanks!


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc,
I retain only a very limited number of bulls, usually only two or three from my best cows. All other males calves are banded within a few days of birth. I catch all the calves in the pasture at this age, (today four calves were processed) and all calves get an ear tag and all but the exceptional males get a band. I have culled the cows for aggressive action toward me and now those that remain just stand a few feet away and observe. I do not tolerate bad behavior or problem animals as I do this by myself. By neutering the bulls I do not have a number of young bulls high on hormones, running around , grunting and trying to get into trouble. I do get a small increase in price for the steers but probably not enough to make up for the slower weight gain. For my operation, banding offsets the benefits of leaving them intact. With the year round calving, having the tasks spread over the year makes light of what could be a hard day or three for one person.


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## ArmyDoc

Thanks, Agmantoo.

For those two or three bulls you retain for evaluation, how long does it take for you to know you have a "keeper" vs one you will ship? Do you worry about one of these young bulls producing offspring before you ship them?

Thanks again.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc
I will know by the time the young bull is 15 months old whether he needs to go to market or held for a herd sire. I sometimes send them to market at a year old or less. It depends on how satisfied or disappointed I am. Even if I do not want him or if I do not have someone that is interested, the man that transports my feeder calves usually knows someone wanting a bull. As I do not sell breeding stock, I do not want or expect a premium price so I sell at market price to someone in the area through the haul guy.

With the young or less mature bull I do not concern myself with his breeding a cow. He may have opportunity but I never witnessed it. With the few young bulls that I retain they seem to create some activity with the cows but the mature bull sees to it that it just remains interest and the mature bull is there when the servicing is done. Since I am providing feeder calves it is no big deal if one of the younger bulls was "lucky" and impregnated a cow. The only registered animals on the farm are the bulls that I purchase as herd sires.


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## Karin L

Agman

Do you have any problems with grasshoppers in your grazing plan? Or are they much of a nuisance in your area?


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## agmantoo

Karin L
Though we do have grasshoppers we seldom have enough of a population to adversely impact the pastures. We have plenty of other problem insects, mainly fire ants and face and horn flies in the Summer.


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## agmantoo

This pic was taken today after some melt had already set in. The cattle are grazing the stockpiled fescue by using their muzzle and head to push the snow aside. No hay was fed. The herd made it through the last couple of days in good order following the storm.


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## david_r

Thanks Agman. I (probably like a lot of people) lurk this thread because I don't have the ability to run cattle. It's a great thread and I really appreciate all the info you provided.

Do the cows have to be "taught" to do that? I mean, if you started out with bottle calves in the spring and then along comes winter and snow, would it be a problem since there wasn't a herd to show them how it's done?

Just curious


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## agmantoo

david_r 
Your comments are appreciated. This thread continues to have a number of hits but seldom any comments. Without inputs I do not know whether to let it go cold or to continue to add content. 

I remain in a learning mode myself and I am always wanting to hone my cattle grazing skills. Hopefully there are others that may or may not have cattle at this time but are open to different ways of doing things. This thread could IMO use more feedback. Surely there are others that have questions that need clarification or ones that have not been asked.

As for the cattle being taught to push the snow aside. The first year it snowed after I had gone to year round grazing I was uncertain of what or how grazing in snow was going to work. I had some hay in reserve. When I went to check on the animals they were mulling around and acted as if they wanted fed. I concluded that I needed to put some hay out and proceeded to do that. By this time the herd had been on green grass and stockpiled grass for at least a couple of years. I put out the hay and all they wanted to do was to use the round bales as a back scratch. I moved the herd to another paddock that had some tall stockpiled fescue and a few of the cows started finding the grass tops. With cattle it is a "monkey see, monkey do" situation and soon many of the cattle started trying to find some of the stockpiled grass under the ice/snow. Ever since they seem so understand that there is grass under the cover. The thing I have observed is that the calves pick this up quickly whereas initially they went without. A couple of days ago I observed a young calve sharing an area cleared by its mother. I believe this to be a life experience that will remain with the calf. The bright light made for difficult pics but I think you can see the calf beside mom. Note...each animal has its head stuck in the snow.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, as always I appreciate all you offer. I've not been posting as much because I'm beat from working on the fence. But PLEASE continue to share what you've learned and what you're experiencing. I've gained so much from it all!


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## Curtis B

Agman, one thing I have noticed is that in almost every picture your grass is still green, even into the the winter season. Is that typical in your area, around here in zone 6 even the fescue turns brown around the end of sept early oct. What about eating the taller forage is that a learned trait?


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## agmantoo

Curtis B
My grass will typically be greener and taller than that in the area. I attribute the difference to a number of practices. I try to never stress my animals nor my pastures. Our frost level is not deep enough to break up compaction of any consequence. Therefore I go to great lengths to prevent the red clay soil from become brick hard. If I consider the ground to wet for machinery to be on I walk and will even ask visitors if they mind walking? Delivery of lime or services are often postponed for the same reason. I occasionally let friends and family get firewood but they know they have to wait until the conditions are ideal to travel across a pasture. The PH is maintained and the cattle distribute the manure as they graze and I pull a drag harrow to break up the pies and more uniformly distribute the nutrients. The grazing of the forages is monitored to keep from grazing them too short. I do not want to stress the root system beyond what is necessary. Legumes are grown in all paddocks to boost the nitrogen that is available. As you probably conclude, I pamper the grass and in turn the grass provides what the herd needs while holding my expenses to the absolute minimum. Having said all this, realize there are many issues that arise that are beyond my control. As I write this the weather is stressing the pastures as it is extremely wet and with that comes mud, compaction, root damage and seed bed destruction. There is nothing to do but to accept this and to make repairs once the weather permits.
As for the taller forage consumption.....that is a forced issue by me. I allocate what I was the herd to have access. Normally I make the herd eat the tallest grass first As a management practice I purposely held a large paddock of tall forage for such a time as we are now experiencing with the snow and ice. I felt the situation would be better addressed if the animals did not have to work as hard to get through the icy cover to reach forage. I had even put the pigtail posts in place but held off on the poly wire. I learned previously that a wet freezing condition would weight the poly wire to the ground when a wintery mix falls.


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## ArmyDoc

Agmantoo,

You can add me to the list of those who check this thread on a daily to every other day basis to see if there is anything new. I don't have any land yet - the property we were looking at was taken off the market. But I hope to have a place by this time next year, so I am trying to learn everything I can in the mean time.

Here are some topics for you to consider:

Any recommendations you may have for the beginner about getting started. You've discussed some of this already, but of the top of my head, things I'm trying to get a handle on are: considerations when looking at land to buy, initial equipment, fencing, timing for stock purchase, initial # of cattle, breed or type of cattle considerations (registered vs commercial, color, breed, size)

As always, thank you very much for all your time, and the wisdom you have shared.


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## SusyTX

Please don't stop posting! I'm still here reading and learning, too. We're still working our 27 acres into rotational grazing, but have "paused" fencing to start homebuilding. Drought hit us hard this summer (two months of over 100 degrees with little to no rain), and some pastures seem weak. We've heard people have had good results with using Medina HuMate, Molasses, and Soil Activator, so we're going to try that combo on about 10 acres to see how it does, in addition to spreading manure.

We did overseed the same 10 acres with crimson clover and ryegrass in October, and it was a bit slow to come up due to unusually cold temps, but it's looking better now. Been getting lots of rain, thank heavens!

Your advice on stockpiled grass was perfect, thank you! We had to move our cattle off a good amount of pasture due to the construction, but we had about 10 acres of grass that hadn't been grazed at all (we'd just bought it, and it was idle for about a year). We're running a small herd of Dexters, and it's going to last them through most of the winter.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc 

Initially, IMO, a person needs to conclude what their goal is for their enterprise. 

If it is for a laid back retirement hobby then they may just need to determine how much they plan to allocate in time and money for the project.

If the effort is to generate some essential income to build for retirement and/or to contribute to or support basic needs then a different approach is needed.

At the risk of insulting some, most hobbiest do not have the drive to seriously undertake the tasks to do rotational grazing. No one can instill into another the desire to succeed. Persons that are willing to put their financial stability at risk by venturing into cattle production already have a commitment. It is these with the determination that will strive to overcome the obstacles. If it were easy to be in the cattle business and readily financially profitable then everyone wanting to live that life would be there. This easy road to success is just not the case. What is real is that those that want to be involved with the life style have to determine how they can survive to meet the goal(s).

How is this done? By getting a competitive advantage. Lets see. Most everyone with cattle sell into a market where the buyer sets the price. I do. Everyone has to some degree of various input costs and overhead. Services and feed are to be paid for, land payments and taxes are incurred, fuel and utilities are bought, various maintenance needs arise, etc. So where does the advantage exist? The advantage is for the producer to identify his/her particular area.

Areas of advantage can be that land is available below market value. This is seldom the case and few of us have inherited land. Having a willingness and ability to work long hard hours can give benefits above having to hire. This list can be extensive but the advantages that creates the greatest possibility for return are the ones that need to receive the most focus. 

Since you will be starting out I suggest you consider what your main goal consists of and how you can blend that goal with the advantages that could be generated. Only when you have a strong idea of what and how you will achieve what you desire will the rest of the project start to evolve. Only you know your risks tolerance, your devotion, your budget, your plans and expectation. If any of this involves rotational, hopefully I can and will assist.


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## Curtis B

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> 
> Initially, IMO, a person needs to conclude what their goal is for their enterprise.
> 
> If it is for a laid back retirement hobby then they may just need to determine how much they plan to allocate in time and money for the project.
> 
> If the effort is to generate some essential income to build for retirement and/or to contribute to or support basic needs then a different approach is needed.
> 
> At the risk of insulting some, most hobbiest do not have the drive to seriously undertake the tasks to do rotational grazing. No one can instill into another the desire to succeed. Persons that are willing to put their financial stability at risk by venturing into cattle production already have a commitment. It is these with the determination that will strive to overcome the obstacles. If it were easy to be in the cattle business and readily financially profitable then everyone wanting to live that life would be there. This easy road to success is just not the case. What is real is that those that want to be involved with the life style have to determine how they can survive to meet the goal(s).
> 
> How is this done? By getting a competitive advantage. Lets see. Most everyone with cattle sell into a market where the buyer sets the price. I do. Everyone has to some degree of various input costs and overhead. Services and feed are to be paid for, land payments and taxes are incurred, fuel and utilities are bought, various maintenance needs arise, etc. So where does the advantage exist? The advantage is for the producer to identify his/her particular area.
> 
> Areas of advantage can be that land is available below market value. This is seldom the case and few of us have inherited land. Having a willingness and ability to work long hard hours can give benefits above having to hire. This list can be extensive but the advantages that creates the greatest possibility for return are the ones that need to receive the most focus.
> 
> Since you will be starting out I suggest you consider what your main goal consists of and how you can blend that goal with the advantages that could be generated. Only when you have a strong idea of what and how you will achieve what you desire will the rest of the project start to evolve. Only you know your risks tolerance, your devotion, your budget, your plans and expectation. If any of this involves rotational, hopefully I can and will assist.


This is just my opinion, so bear with me. *There isn't allways an area of advantage, other than possibly drive*. Personally I have very little disposible income that that is the major tie-up for me. I am fitting in as much as I can financialy, to the point of all my extra income that hasn't been allocated to exsisting bills to procede. I do not wish to take out a loan to jumpstart me, so it takes a long time to get there. Livestock is a longterm point of income. The payback for a cow, is close to two years, sheep, and most others is one year if you are lucky, and that doesn't include operating expenses (tractor, seed, fence, sometimes feed). That is where I am, this year the animals have/will pay for themselves, and that money can go into more animals, and operating expenses. The difficulty I am having is matching the number of animals to the pasture size.I do appreciate the help, and look forward to learning more.


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## agmantoo

Curtis B 
If you have the personal drive to succeed in the cattle business there is no reason not to. Most self made persons accomplish what they do from within themselves. I have in the past attempted to mentor two different people. Startup animals and machinery were provided in one case and free pasture was provided in another. Both failed! One had very little personal drive and the other was more willing to accept failure by following a conventional cattle production path than to implement change. Risks is something that lots of folks shy away from also. There are risks present at all times and most risks go unrecognized. Frequently what is first thought to be risky proves not to be and those that are perceived minimal risks surface to be major ones. In a round about way I am trying to say is do not get caught up in the day to day issues and instead focus on the goals you want to achieve. You state that "there isn't allways an area of advantage" and I am going to disagree. Bluntly, you have just yet recognized where that area of advantage exists. Here are few of my thoughts. Is there someone that wants to retire but yet hold onto their cattle but to a lesser degree? You could care for the cattle on shares and work a job also. Is there an old poorly cared for farm/ranch that maybe is owned by someone that has no cattle interest? Could you meet with them and show them how you could make their place create a return and at the same time create opportunity for yourself? I know people that keep property qualified for property tax deferment for the owners and in turn get big discounts in return for use of the land. Land speculators buy properties and hold them until the properties appreciate. Rather than let the property grow up it is often better for them to let someone use the property for a period. All of these situations afford opportunity and would let someone starting out get a foothold. Notice that at no time did I mention staying committed. I would suggest never losing your goal and instead always be on the lookout for how you can establish yourself independently by increasing your land holdings and the size of your herd. 

PS...you referenced the lack of advantage....have your recognized that the cattle are producing and growing in value each and every day while you are only devoting a small portion of your time to them? This uncommitted time allows for a lot of income generation from other sources. This outside generated income should free up the income from the cattle to become funds that can be spent at your discretion on growing your cattle operation.


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## Curtis B

agmantoo said:


> Curtis B
> 
> 
> PS...you referenced the lack of advantage....have your recognized that the cattle are producing and growing in value each and every day while you are only devoting a small portion of your time to them? This uncommitted time allows for a lot of income generation from other sources. This outside generated income should free up the income from the cattle to become funds that can be spent at your discretion on growing your cattle operation.


I am right with you on this, and after two years I believe that my wife now understands also. I get asked on almost a weekly basis why I would consider getting more livestock. I still have to explain to many family members and friends that I spend at most 20 min a day and that includes all the poultry, that requires more care/food.

Back to the topic, I hear alot of preaching about the endophite(sp?) free fescue. Is there that much difference between it and the standard tall fescue? I am finding it hard to justify the price of it. I am putting down seed in the next month, and I'm really trying to justify all costs.


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## agmantoo

Curtis B

I can only support what I know and I discount most of what I read until I slowly become convinced. I do not nor will I ever have the equipment nor the knowledge and inclination to test and verify the purported benefits of endophyte free or reduced fescue. What I do know is that what endophyte free fescue that I have planted performed poorly. Within three years the stand was sparse and required replanting. I went back to my harvested on site infected fescue. Other than what seed I save the balance of the pastures are never permitted to go to seed. The problem of the endophyte is supposed associated mostly with consumption the seed heads. IMO you will be far ahead by offsetting the endophyte impact by planting lots of legumes. The legumes will reduce your fertilizer needs while providing additional forage and at times when the fescue is less productive. Conventional beef farmers here feed a lot of magnesium supplements during periods of rapid forage growth to offset bloat. I am not telling you to do this but I do not feed the Hi Mag. I do probably feed as rich a natural forage as can be grown however. My cattle never exhibit any observable stress. Possibly they have become conditioned or maybe have established a resistance to the down side if there is one.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> 
> Initially, IMO, a person needs to conclude what their goal is for their enterprise.
> 
> If it is for a laid back retirement hobby then they may just need to determine how much they plan to allocate in time and money for the project.
> 
> If the effort is to generate some essential income to build for retirement and/or to contribute to or support basic needs then a different approach is needed.
> .


I agree - as Steaphen Covey says, "begin with the end in mind". I've been thinking about this quite a bit. I would say my goals are as follows:

1) Develop an outside revenue stream that does not a great deal of time every day - ideally not more than 30 minutes to an hour Monday through Friday. I can spend more time on weekends, but I already work 50-60 hours a week, and I don't need a third full time job.

2) Satisfaction. Since I can make more money elsewhere, it is important that I be satisfied/fulfilled/happy with this. In other words, working hard at something you enjoy isn't really work, it's fun. Working hard at something you don't like, is drudgery.

3) Tax advantages. Businesses have better tax opportunities than being employed. I will be running this as a business, and will use those advantages.



agmantoo said:


> At the risk of insulting some, most hobbiest do not have the drive to seriously undertake the tasks to do rotational grazing. No one can instill into another the desire to succeed.


Not insulted at all, and I recognize this as a very real risk. I have a job that provides more income than just about any other activity that I can think of. However, I won't be doing that for ever, and building alternate revenue streams is only prudent. Also, while I don't need the revenue now, I do need the outside interest...if only to keep myself on an even keel.



agmantoo said:


> How is this done? By getting a competitive advantage.
> .
> .
> .
> Since you will be starting out I suggest you consider what your main goal consists of and how you can blend that goal with the advantages that could be generated. Only when you have a strong idea of what and how you will achieve what you desire will the rest of the project start to evolve. Only you know your risks tolerance, your devotion, your budget, your plans and expectation. If any of this involves rotational, hopefully I can and will assist


This was a bit harder for me - I don't have experience or any of the things that I normally think of as advantages. But looking at it differently, I do have a few competitive advantages.

1) Land costs are not a major problem. I intend to buy my land anyhow, using other revenue/savings. The cattle business doesn't have to pay for the land, just make a profit on other expenses, to help with the land. 

2) I may have access to clientele/markets that have more disposable income. One of my colleagues wife is a gourmet cook. She is very interested in grass-fed, hormone free beef, and is accustomed to paying for organic beef at the market... and she has friends of a similar mind.

3) I'm willing to try doing things differently. I have no vested interest in the status quo.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I hope you're not counting me as one of the failed mentorees. While I know we've not accomplished as much as quickly as either of us would like, we're still working. Rain has been a huge issue and has slowed us down even more. There's standing water even on the highest areas in the pasture and even the tractor has gotten stuck, preventing us from putting in the final wood posts. Once that is done it won't take long to run the wire.

And if you are counting me as one of the failures, I'll be glad to prove you wrong when I post pictures of the completed fences with cows contentedly grazing.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

Nah! You are a work in progress. I am more patient than that. You know I can watch the sun turn dog waste white and still wait for it to stop smelling. I have not bugged you as I am aware that you have a full work load even if the weather had been better. 

The two failures were local young men. One I worked with providing free pasture for 3 years and the other got two good starts but each time I left him to his own initiative he would get lax with his responsibilities and get behind financially and his solution to that was selling brood cows which were not his.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for confirming, Agman. I was hoping you hadn't given up on me yet. 

I can't imagine blowing an opportunity like that! If you were closer, I'd probably pester you to death with questions and requests for demonstrations. I'd still love for Daddy and my brother to see your operation in action--we just have to take every good weather day to work.

That guy you mentioned sounds like the cousin I told you about--recently he got 10 of Daddy's round haybales he was "selling for him"--and just took the money. Daddy is passive to the point that he won't press charges, but if he pulls that with me, he'll find I don't play the same way.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc 

Other than a few startup hiccups I see no reason that you should not hit the ground running. The time constraints are not going to restrict you and you can prepare to enter into the cattle business based on whatever needs to be done to the land you purchase. Getting some decent brood cows suitable for rotational grazing could pose a challenge. We can work on that.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

Do you have any calves from the new bull or is it too soon? I want to see some pics when the time is right. Thanks


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## godsgapeach

Yes, Agman. There are quite a few. I'll get some pics in the next few days I hope. I'm just glad he's doing his job.  He was pitching a fit with a bull in the pasture across the road from him last week--claiming his territory.


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## ArmyDoc

Post some of the big boy too!


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## godsgapeach

Will do, ArmyDoc. Wish I'd gotten out there today with the camera, but I hate to bounce it around in the gator. 

Are you and yours doing well?


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## ArmyDoc

We are doing well, thanks. Did you get a lot of snow? Augusta got about 4 inches - that's the most I can remember - we moved here in '93.


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## ArmyDoc

Agmantoo,

Going back to the year-round bull in pasture topic. Have a couple more questions.

How do you keep the bull from breedng the new heiffers too young? 
How do you ensure your cows are cycling / cull for infertility? Other people recommend culling if they aren't pregnant with in the breeding window. How do you track fertility / cull for infertility or slow cycling?
Last, are you seeing calves all year round, or do they cluster around one period?

Thanks,


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## agmantoo

How do you keep the bull from breedng the new heiffers too young? 
Initially I had the same question and thought there would be problems. As it has turned out, with this being a closed herd and I have just a limited number of bulls that are breeding age it just does not happen. As another poster once replied it is like a large "family" and the heifers do not cycle that young and the bull(s) do not bred too early. If I had a large number of strange animals being introduced into the herd I think I would have a problem. As is, I rarely have a heifer to calve before she is 22 months old and usually it is more like 24 to 26 months. I do not have a better explanation.


How do you ensure your cows are cycling / cull for infertility? Other people recommend culling if they aren't pregnant with in the breeding window. How do you track fertility / cull for infertility or slow cycling?
Very few healthy cattle fail to cycle and they settle when bred. I ear tag all the calves when they are a week or so old. Heifers get theirs in the left ear and steers in the right. I can tell from a distance the sex by looking at the tag location. The numbering system tells me approximately when they were born and the year. I manually track their progress. A heifer should be bred by 15 months of age and I observe their development. Usually I can tell within 5 to 6 months if they are bred as they will not be cycling and they will be starting to bulge. A heifer that is too fat and exhibits steer characteristics is one that will need watching. 

Last, are you seeing calves all year round, or do they cluster around one period?
I have calves through out the year but they arrive in cycle period intervals with approximately 3 week between. If the forage has been more flush or less plentiful this can and does impact the breeding cycle to some degree so the groups of calves that are born can vary in number. The severe drought of 2007 created an increase of calves 9 to 11months after in broke but I see that slowly redistributing to where the calving is spreading back out.


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## bruce2288

Curtis I think you may have an advantage in your area you may be overlooking. Post harvest corn or milo fields or wheat pasture. I am duly impressed with Agmantoo's year round operation and production/acre.. I know trying to duplicate that here in Nebraska would be financially difficult. I would have to stockpile feed from November till April. Some of this is done in the Nebraska sandhills and can work but partly because of lower land costs. Here is my point you need to make best use of rescources, even those which are not your own. I can rent corn stalks for $6/ acre, which will graze a cow for about one month. That would not pay the property taxes on pasture here. Pasture rents here range from $1-$1.50/day for a cow calf pair. I am much better utilizeing my pasture during the growing season and renting cornstalks for the winter. I rotate my pastures on a 3-6 day /pasture schedule and plan to do more tempory divisions to decrease this. I will probably never get to daily moves due to rough terraine and water constraits. I would caution against the out-of-hand rejection of all common practices as old fashioned and out dated, some are tried and true common because they make sense.


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc, we got at least 4 inches and maybe a bit more. We had somewhere around 6 in 2008 I think (started one evening about 7 and melted the next day). I like snow for about 30 minutes, but the kids are always dying to have it. I, however, am very thankful I've always lived in GA and only see it every so often.


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## SuperDog

Wow..... This is one great thread. Over the last week or so, I have read all the way thru and I have to say there is a huge amount of information here. 

Here in Wisconsin, it would be virtually impossible to make it thru winter without feeding hay. That being said, I didnât start to feed until the middle of December this year. However, I will probably still be feeding into March or April. That's just one of the things we deal with living in the northern part of the country. The nice thing is that come spring, we green up quick, and have fantastic growth right into July. Sometimes July and August can be kinda dry, but usually we get a thunderstorm or two that keeps things growing. With that growth it is easy to keep some pasture set aside to make hay for the months that we do have to feed.

Right now, I have much more pasture than I need. I am trying to build my herd up. It is very small. I started with two heifers a year and a half ago, and now have two pregnant cows and two young steer. I have around 30 acres that I can use for pasture. Right now some of it is rented out, since I donât need all that room. I use âAIâ for this small of a herd, and this year am going to try to breed more on frame size. I need to look at the list of straws the âAIâ girl carries around, and make a decision from there. 

Agmantoo,I have a question for,
You have around 100 cows, how many did you start with, and how long did it take for you to get to the size herd you have now? I understand you cull very hard, and would think that it would take longer to build your herd with hard culling. Or did you build your herd first, then start culling for quality once you had the quantities. 


Thanks
Mike


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## agmantoo

SuperDog 

Glad you stopped in the forum.

I do not keep a diary so this is from memory. I started in ~1996/1997 with 30 commercial feeder heifers bought at a sale barn and a small herd bought from an individual. My initial outlay was $10,000 for the entire herd. Prior to bringing the small herd home, I culled them at the source taking the ones I did not want to the sale. I kept only approximately 1/2 a dozen total of bred cows and cows with small calves. The bull from the small herd was sold. For 6 months I did not have a bull as I was wanting the heifers to reach breeding weight of approximately 750 lbs. During this period I met a man and later borrowed a bull from him. He did not have carrying capacity at his place and was wanting someone to board the bull. That was my start.

I replicated everyone else and went the way of a conventional feeder calf producer and hung in doing that for several years. I culled during this time period for cattle that were flighty and those that threatened me when I worked the calves. A few of the cows that had what I thought were inferior calves were also culled during this period and I bought the first of a number of registered bulls. I was plowing what financial gain I made back into the herd. During 2000 thru 2002, I had read what I could find on rotational grazing and I started the process on my own. I knew I was either going to make a change or go out of the cattle business. I was surprised early on that I could go further and further into the Winter months without feeding hay. Around 2003, I went through the first Winter without feeding any hay. At this time, thou still culling I was up to maybe 70 head as I was keeping many of the heifers and holding onto the remaining original cows. I had learned from an old horseman that certain horse configurations were easy keepers where others weren't. I observed that the cattle exhibited the same characteristic. A short length and not too tall cow stayed in better body condition regardless of pasture conditions so then I culled the large cattle. The large cattle sold readily as the locals liked the cattle since I had what we thought were ideal bulls. From the small framed cows I had retained, I kept each good looking heifer calf produced and monitored how well I was making it through the Winter on no hay. ( I do have 50 bales for emergency) When I reached a headcount in the high 90's I felt I had matched the carrying capacity of the farm. With that head count I stabilized and started culling for what I perceived the optimum cow. (frame 3/low4, easy calving, moderate milker, black, and docile) At this point I had become aware of Murray Grey cattle and their performance on grass and switched to a MG bull. I have had him for about 15 months. His calves look good but I was wanting black calves and the bull is dark brown but out of a black sire. About half of my bull's offspring are coming brown/grey and the rest black. I will retain the black heifers and within a couple of years revert to a black bull by buying a Pharo produced animal.


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## SuperDog

Thanks Agmantoo,

13 or 14 years isn't that long to build up a herd that much. Im just impatient and want to get the herd built up fast. Im heading to the sale barn tonight... not to buy anything, but to look at whats on the market around here and get an idea of the costs. Most of the beef around here is from holstein steers, with all the dairies around, so Im not sure how many black animals show up at the sale barn. My concern with buying at the sale barn (besides the possibility of diseases) is, a person really can't tell how large of a frame a calf will grow into. Right now my cows are WAY too big. They are exactly the wrong animals for what I am doing. They were both a result from breeding first calf holstein heifers with angus semen for easy birthing. Both are very tall and produce a huge amount of milk. Surprisingly, their body condition is staying pretty good. I did wean the calves off at 6 months tho. So right now my biggest problem is just getting the herd size up with the right sized animals. Then hopefully, I can start to take advantage of a few more acres.

Mike


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## Curtis B

bruce2288 said:


> Curtis I think you may have an advantage in your area you may be overlooking. Post harvest corn or milo fields or wheat pasture. I am duly impressed with Agmantoo's year round operation and production/acre.. I know trying to duplicate that here in Nebraska would be financially difficult. I would have to stockpile feed from November till April. Some of this is done in the Nebraska sandhills and can work but partly because of lower land costs. Here is my point you need to make best use of rescources, even those which are not your own. I can rent corn stalks for $6/ acre, which will graze a cow for about one month. That would not pay the property taxes on pasture here. Pasture rents here range from $1-$1.50/day for a cow calf pair. I am much better utilizeing my pasture during the growing season and renting cornstalks for the winter. I rotate my pastures on a 3-6 day /pasture schedule and plan to do more tempory divisions to decrease this. I will probably never get to daily moves due to rough terraine and water constraits. I would caution against the out-of-hand rejection of all common practices as old fashioned and out dated, some are tried and true common because they make sense.


I know that would help, and could work. The problem though is with me. Here of late I have gotten to the point that I don't think I can count on/trust anyone, and has gotten worse almost monthly. I plan to work up to the point that I don't have to rely on anyone (extended family included). It may take me a lot longer to get there, but I am determined to do it, an I think rotational grazing will be the key.


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## godsgapeach

The new bull's first offspring:


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## godsgapeach

a few more...



























the newest addition:


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## godsgapeach

And the big boy himself (still just a big baby):


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## SuperDog

Those are some nice looking calves!!! The big boy looks mighty good also. I have to say I am jealous. Not just of the animals, but the lack of snow. We finally made it above freezing today, if only for a few hours. Hopefully the snow will leave soon too.


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## ArmyDoc

Cute calves! I was surprised to see the red calves. I was thinking he was pure bred Angus, but he must have some red angus in his past.

I think you said he was frame size 3 or 4 when you got him. How tall is he now?


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## godsgapeach

Thanks SuperDog and ArmyDoc. I'm pretty pleased with this new crop. We're heading in the right direction. One difference I can tell is the shape of their heads--they're smaller and more compact.

He is registered angus, but there's plenty of red in the Mamas (mostly Santa Gertrudis with some OLD Hereford blood mixed in). Working all that out will take quite a while. We're culling for frame size first and color later.

He hasn't gained a lot of height--he still hits around my shoulder height--I'm 5'4". Some of the old cows are forehead high on me. Still working on that too.


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## Allen W

ArmyDoc said:


> Cute calves! I was surprised to see the red calves. I was thinking he was pure bred Angus, but he must have some red angus in his past.
> 
> I think you said he was frame size 3 or 4 when you got him. How tall is he now?


Red Angus are simply red black angus. They are not a seperate "breed" just red color that shows up in the black Angus.


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## ArmyDoc

Allen W said:


> Red Angus are simply red black angus. They are not a seperate "breed" just red color that shows up in the black Angus.


Actually, that's not true. Red Angus are a separate breed, with their own registry. True, they came from the same original Aberdeen Angus cattle. But that wasn't what I was getting at in any case.

What I was getting at was that the American Angus Association doesn't allow registering red animals, even if they are pure bred. Those who carry the red gene (which is recessive) are listed. So usually, if you buy a registered black Angus bull, you will get a homozygous black animal, an all the calves will be black, regardless of if the mother is red. That's why I was surprised the calves were red - it indicates that this particular bull is heterozygous, and that somewhere in his distant ancestry, he must have had a red ancester. This is relatively rare for registered black angus, and is why I asked.

Personally, I prefer red cattle. I think they do better in the Georgia heat, and I plan on raising registered Red Angus. Unfortunately, at some sale barns you get docked for red cattle and not for black. C'est la vie. I plan to try and sell most of my animals direct market as beef rather than at the sale barn, so hopefully it won't hurt me too bad.


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## wstevenl

I love all the colors in the calves. The first picture is my favorite. 
I know, color isn't everything, they look like nice calves in shape too ;-) It will be interesting to see how they fill out. 

I was surprised to see the red calf along with the dun looking ones from an all black bull. Makes me wonder if we have a possibility of getting red from our Lowline Angus bull crossed with a red cow (she's Milking Devon/Highland cross but a real dark red). I can't wait until our herd is built up enough to have a bunch of calves running around like that. What a way to enjoy creation!


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, wstevenl. I've never studied the genetics part of things, but as I said, we're shooting for frame size first and then we'll work toward color.

And speaking of enjoying creation, I'm loving hanging out with them all. They make better neighbors than most people.


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## SuperDog

godsgapeach said:


> Thanks, wstevenl. I've never studied the genetics part of things, but as I said, we're shooting for frame size first and then we'll work toward color.
> 
> And speaking of enjoying creation, I'm loving hanging out with them all. They make better neighbors than most people.



Isn't it nice how a few cows and their calves can make life more enjoyable?


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## godsgapeach

Absolutely, SuperDog.

And ArmyDoc, if I find that I've miscalculated the date of selling the old bull and adding in the new one, I'll sure let you know. I'm pretty sure there was a window of at least 3 weeks and probably 4 without a bull at all. But if all future calves are black, I'll know the answer.


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## ArmyDoc

Sounds Good Godsgapeach.

They are cute calves regardless, but it would be interesting to know.


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## Mel-

can the type of brush hog that is pulled behind an atv be used to mow excessive growth or even in a pinch a riding mower?

it looks like the pull behind bush hogs can only go 6 inches high which is what a lot of riding mowers go. I read your post, agmantoo, that said 8 inches. 

I'm looking at buying a small place (looking at 5-25 acre old pastures to build a house on) and don't want to buy a tractor. I would rather have something that can be put on a trailer and taken to town to be repaired.

my goal with cattle would be to prevent the pasture from reverting to woodland and paying the property taxes. in the areas I am looking at that will be no more than $500 a year.

I have a 3 acre or so pasture now and there have been no animals in it in 5-6 years. after the last cow left I started mowing it with a riding lawn mower and it seems to be less weedy now that areas I can't mow (too hilly or wet for rider). but is even 6 inches too short for rotational grazing? thanks.

Melinda


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## agmantoo

Mel- 
When you move up to more acreage you need to consider how to include a tractor in the deal. A reliable used tractor with a rotary mower and a drag harrow is nearly a must. A seeder could be used with the tractor also. A tractor should be obtainable for less money than a really good ATV and the tractor will be far more beneficial and versatile.


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## agmantoo

It is colder here today than in Vancover and probably wetter with snow projected. However, in just a brief time I expect to see a burst of growth of what is remaining of the forage that has not be trampled deep into the mud or stressed by the unusually cold Winter.

Over the years I have learned a few things that I would like to share.

Once the soil has dried to where it will support machinery without soil compaction here are a few things I will try to accomplish.

Remove any remaining thatch that is excessive by rotary mowing as closed to the ground as possible.

Apply seed in areas where cattle traffic has worn the soil bare.

Sow clover seed in paddocks that have weak or partial stands.

Pull the drag harrow over all areas grazed through the Winter.

My PH is already correct but if pasture needs lime it needs to be applied ASAP. On acidic soils lime is IMO the cheapest improvement one can make. I will take lime over commercial fertilizer anytime.

Typically the window of opportunity to accomplish the above is real short. I will want to get the seed sown early enough that they will not be competing excessively with the established forages as they renew themselves. I already have seed on hand and my equipment is field ready. I have yet to mount the broadcast seeder and to calibrate it. Once the weather breaks into my favor I expect to put in some long days.


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## NW Rancher

Agman, thank you again. This last post of yours is timely for me, and you just answered quite a few questions I didn't know I had regarding my next actions. Your efforts in sharing what you have learned are very much appreciated.
-Matt


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## SteveO

Easy question for Agmantoo
Based on the premise that a cow/calf requires 1.4 acres per year. It seems strange that if you had 10 cow/calf in a 250ft wide field you would only have to move the wire about 8 ft a day depending on a lot of variables of course. Is that correct? Or did I blow a digit someplace. 
One other easy one while I am here how do you stake out the corner where the grazing area and the alley to water meet?
Thanks for the layout I am still waiting for it to dry out enough to get the soil test. It seems strange up here in Ma we got less snow than down in TN and NC. So much for global warming.

Steve:l33t:


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## agmantoo

SteveO

As you stated there are going to be a lot of variables. Those variables will be time of year (growing or dormant), moisture (ample rain or drought), Stockpiling season, fertility (adequate or lacking), etc.

With rotational grazing each area will see the herd multiple times over the year. This reusing, with a rest period between grazings, is where rotational grazing really performs. Essentially, the 14 acres is providing the forage yield of twice that acreage. The forage grown will yield much more than a pasture that is grazed to the ground as a conventional would be after the Spring growth flush. Rather than being dormant in the Summer you will get growth by not stressing the plants. Come Fall you should again get growth in all areas and a portion of the acreage can be reserved for the coming Winter or hay feeding part of the year. To answer your "10 cow/calf in a 250ft wide field you would only have to move the wire about 8 ft a day" question in my experience it would be achievable when the grass is at peak if you moved ~12'. More realistic a typical move would be 25 to 30 ft on the 250ft field. This would allow the cattle room to move about in the narrow strip without hitting the hot wires and would put less stress of the forage permitting a shorter time period in returning for another grazing. You do realize this was a difficult question? : )

Here are a few pictures of some waterers. You can get the idea as to how the waterers are partitioned in order to allow drinking from different paddocks or lanes.

http://www.giantrubberwatertanks.com/Tank Pictures.htm

http://www.nosepump.com/location.htm

http://www.nosepump.com/


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## agmantoo

My rotational grazing is limited to growing zone 7 as most of you know. I do not feel comfortable with specific plant selection and establishment outside the area where I have hands on experience. I answered a request outside the rotational grazing thread that IMO should be within so if you do not mind I am going to bring part of it here. There were some good responses to anvoj but I never posted them because I did not get permission from those that replied to do so. Hopefully no one is offended or maybe they will want to bring their responses here.


From anvoj
"Hello all,
I'm new to the board.

I'm converting a portion of some land I bought at stumpage to pasture. Something like 10-15 acres. We have 5 highlanders (which have done wonders cleaning up after the mess the loggers left) 2 donkeys and 2 horses on a total of 80 acres, mostly woods. We got the cattle last June and the donkeys in the fall for the wolves (had to dehorn the cattle after the lead cow tore up the colt a little and got worried they couldn't protect themselves anymore-so far so good). The land I'm renovating has never been worked in any way, and has lots of rocks under +/- 6" of good loam. I'm working on getting the rocks out of part of it, but it's a slow process and I figure I'll be overseeding the bulk of it. I thought I'd seed 1/3 clovers to 2/3 whatever mix the feed store recommends and see what does well. I want to avoid commercial fertilizer, but since we have 6 months of hay brought in, we'll have plenty of manure to apply.

My question is about timing this next season. I wasn't able to get it limed last fall. Should I overseed/frostseed this spring, let the animals on it when it's established, then lime and spread manure in the fall, or is that a waste of seed? Is it better to let them graze the volunteer grass this season and do it right by liming/spreading in the fall and seeding the following spring? How long should the lime sit before seeding? Could I seed in the spring then lime in July and expect regrowth in the fall?

thanks,
Tony

From anvoj
"Hi agman,
thanks for the input. It was your thread on rotational grazing that brought me to this forum actually. I learned alot there, and am looking at the worn out fields down the road with new eyes.
Because I won't be able to get a truck on the land (on account of the spring load limits) until much later than I would be able to seed, how does this sound for a plan?:

Frost seed mid March or so, depending on the weather.
Graze the new stand once it's established down to +/-6" (June or July?).
Lime and manure (not too heavily).
Graze again in the fall if the stand has recovered.
Reseed spring 2011 to thicken it up.
Lime and manure again fall 2011.

Would working the area in June/July, prior to the likely August dry spell be too hard on the new stand?"
Sorry if all this is obvious stuff-it's new to me."

From agmantoo
Welcome to the site!
What plants that cattle can eat is currently volunteering on these worn out areas that you anticipate seeding? How productive are the fields with whatever is growing on them? Frost seeding should get you started. I would not disturb the soil as the carbon layer is on the top and offers the best seed bed for your seed. With the lime applying delayed you should be able to get a soil sample before the opportunity exists to apply the lime. I would want to get the PH above 6.2 so I would apply accordingly as soon as weather permits. The frost seeded forage needs to establish a root system or the cattle will destroy the plants by pulling them out of root as they eat. What do you plan on seeding? It takes me 3 years to get new grass established to my satisfaction. We have had a very wet Winter and the wet continues. My pastures are in the worst condition from trampling the forages that they have ever been in. Weather permitting I will over seed next week using the tractor and if the weather doesn't cooperate I will seed with the four wheeler. I plan on broadcasting seed and then pull the drag harrow to get manure and mud residue smoothed and distributed creating some minimal seed coverage. I will let the cattle walk some of the seed in. Clover seed will be fed to the cattle with their mineral supplement and the cattle will distribute the seed in their waste. Being in growing zone 7, I need to get a move on as already some growth is being observed on the sunny side of the hills. I am nearly out of stockpiled grass but barring freakish weather I should make it without having to feed hay.
__________________
Agmantoo



From anvoj
"The worn out fields down the road don't actually belong to me, just get me thinking. The neighbor that has them runs beefers (baldies and odds&ends) and had to sell half the herd last fall for lack of hay. But then he doesn't work to improve the pastures. The fields I'm talking about haven't had anything done to them beyond cutting and grazing in probably 40-50 years. A couple years ago he only got 6 rounds off of the +/- 60 acres there. Margins are tight I know, but it makes me sick to see wasted land. Just like all the barns going down because people can't afford (or can't be bothered) to fix the roof."

Maybe those fields will become available at some point, and your system sounds like it does wonders to rehabilitate that kind of neglect.

What I'm working on now isn't worn out exactly, as it had always been forest before 10 years ago. Also, I wouldn't call it a field-needs alot of work over time to be able to get proper equipment on it. I don't know my grasses as well as I could. I have whatever has grown up behind the brush hog and whatever has come up out of the manure. Mostly native grasses/swamp grass I guess with the odd bit of red clover, timothy, trefoil and quack. Of course the highlanders eat just about anything, and kept good condition last season. Then again they had 60 acres or so to pick from. I think timothy and brome are the usual suspects around here, but I was going to ask at the feed store, get a mix and see what works best over time. With 1/3 clover for the N. My goal is to up my carrying capacity some and get the land into better shape. If I want to run cattle for real in the future I need to get my hands on those fields down the road.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
anvoj 

Also, when you say a new stand takes 3 years to establish, do you mean you keep the animals off it for 3 years, or just that it's not at peak productivity for 3 years?
thanks"
anvoj

From agmantoo
It takes approximately the 3 years to get a good productive establishment of grass and legumes. I can and do graze new pasture sparingly and when the weather is optimum. I do not want the new grass to go to seed nor to develop a thatch. What takes so long is getting the carbon layer. Converting from woodland to field and correcting erosion redistributes what little beneficial soil that exists so thinly that there is not a good fertile seed bed the first few years. I have found that once established and over time the pastures continue to improve and without adding commercial fertilizer. At one time I thought that it was essential to apply commercial fertilizer at least twice per year. I no longer think that. Instead, plant legumes and native grasses and grasses that have adapted to the location. When you go to the farm store do not put a lot of faith in what information they give. They are store clerks. They are selling product, maybe product where the best return is for the store. Become extremely observant. Look the county over and determine what is working best to provide the most forage, not necessarily the best forage, for the least expense and work. I would think that fescue will grow in your area. let me know if that is true. Once you have a forage plan that is long enduring and productive you can develop a herd that can thrive off the forage that works best for you. The land is the first thing that you must adapt yourself to using. It is like working with nature rather than against nature. You may influence the lands ability but you are not going to alter it significantly in a matter of a few years. It is easier to concentrate on things that you can change such as the herd. Maybe you cannot raise large breed European blooded cattle due to the feed requirements. Possibly you can produce a profitable 550 lb feeder calf in 8 months on your lands forage instead of a 650 lb one at a loss off of forage that requires reseeding ever year or so and requires a lot of fertilizer and hay to produce. It is this concept that I have difficulty communicating to those that want to stay in the conventional rut. I prefer to do these replies in the rotational sticky above as I can share the information with those that come seeking information such as yourself without retyping. If it do not mind post in that sticky if you have further questions. Thanks.


__________________


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## agmantoo

Anvoj,
I found this article on a variety of fescue growing in southwest Wisconsin that I had not heard. Whether it can perform further north is unknown to me but it certainly seems sustainable in its current location.

"In 1990, we found an unknown grass growing on a pasture-based dairy farm in southwestern Wisconsin. We have identified this grass as meadow fescue, popular in the late 19th century and early 20th century before tall fescue was imported into the USA. The grass was established throughout the Charles Opitz farm by harvesting hay with ripe seed and feeding that hay to cattle during winter, so that the cattle would spread the seed via their manure droppings. We have verified that, once established, meadow fescue on the Opitz farm is not undergoing further sexual reproduction, so that existing plants are surviving for at least 10-15 years. This is a very winterhardy and drought tolerant grass that has potential for becoming an important grass variety option on pasture-based farms." 

Though difficult to establish you may want to add Kura clover (http://www.ansci.wisc.edu/Extension...ings/Pdf/Nutrition and Health/Kura Clover.pdf) to a mix of other clovers such as Ladino or red which establish easier. I remain firm that IMO that a mix of fescue and clover and the right type of cattle are a difficult combination to beat.


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## Curtis B

Ok, you have yet again introduced something totaly foreign to me. I have never heard of feeding clover seed to cows for application of the seed. Can you elaborate a little.


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## agmantoo

Curtis B

Hard seed such as clover can pass through the digestive system of a cow and remain viable. 
Here is an article that you should enjoy.
http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca3705p12-70830.pdf


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> Curtis B
> 
> Hard seed such as clover can pass through the digestive system of a cow and remain viable.
> Here is an article that you should enjoy.
> http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca3705p12-70830.pdf


It seems to me that I read somewhere that for some seeds, passing throught he cattles digestive tract actually improved the viability - a higher percentage of the seeds sprouted, because the hard shell had been softed by digestion.


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## anvoj

thanks for the articles agman. 
SW WI is zone 5 and we're zone 3, so could be it just gets too cold here, but I will ask around to see if anyone has any experience with fescue in the area. Could plant a test plot I suppose, if I can't find anyone who knows one way or the other. 

Do you guys know if most or all clovers can pass and remain viable, or is it only certain types? The Kura sounds like quite a survivor, with that big root system, but might not work in my situation, as I'm going to try to avoid breaking the sod and don't want to use chemicals to start fresh. I was thinking I'd go with a clover mix. I know red does well, but maybe something else does better. Because we have alot of acres/head I feel like I can afford the time to experiment some. 

That brings a question to mind: would you think it would be more useful to plant distinct test plots to see how simple mixes grow without too much competetion, or would it be better to plant a mix of a little bit of everything to see what types compete and thrive in that situation?


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## agmantoo

Most any clover that is normally hulled or scarified should be able to pass through the digestive system and then germinate. Those seed going through the animal will not be hulled or scarified nor chemically treated and therefore should also be cheaper to purchase. 

Some research on tall fescues should surface whether these grasses will grow in you area. I would appreciate hearing your findings.


I would use the information gleaned from the forages grown in the area you plan on establishing. Then once I had forage growing I would continue to search for the plants that were ideal to my specific location. I plant something nearly every year to evaluate. I search for plants that adapt and produce in abundance yet remain palatable to the herd. It does not have to be the most ideal forage for consumption as I have found the animal will adapt. I need plants that will produce year in and year out and over a long duration on acid soils and with few inputs. For example, many folks here grow orchard grass. To me it is an inferior forage. The stand will phase out in a few years, the amount of forage is less than fescue and the growing season if far short compared to the fescue. Though others grow the orchard grass I do not want it. Grow what fits your operation!


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## RBC81

I have heard of feeding seed to cattle but I thought you could feed all types of seed. Will fescue and rye pass through and still germinate.


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## agmantoo

The percentage of viable seed that survive the trip through the digestive system will vary depending on the coating of the seed. Without a heavy hard coating I have read that from zero to as little as single digit percentages exit remaining able to germinate. Provided that is true, then it would only be justifiable to stick with seed such as the hard coated clovers IMO. For those that feed hay, placing the hay on the ground in areas where one wants to establish ground cover is also a good practice.


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## Curtis B

I looked and can't find anyone that sells the clover seed w/o being hulled. Have you found a place on line? You have really intreaged me with this one, and I would like to try it, but I am seeing clover seed going for around $10 a poundand needs to be applied at roughly15lbs an acre, which is defenatly not in the budget.


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## wstevenl

If you're not trying to plant a clover field you don't need near that much clover seed. I've been told that if you could spread it well enough, 1 lb of clover seed is plenty because the seeds are so small. You'll of course need more than 1lb per acre though because you just can't spread it that well. It will spread itself over time too... especially the white clovers. They creep.


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## agmantoo

Check out this link and see if the Arrowleaf will grow in your area. This is a quality clover that does not require the high seeding rates and should be available in the $3/lb range. http://forage.okstate.edu/text/arrowleaf.htm. I just throw a couple of handfuls in with the mineral supplement and slowly get the seed dispensed and I do not concern myself with the season. Clover seed will sprout when conditions are right for many years after the seed are spread. If you cannot find the unhull/scarified do not concern yourself. You actually get more seed per lb of the unhulled per lb and if some do not germinate the higher count will make up for the loss. If available the unhulled should be cheaper.


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## RBC81

Agmantoo
I am planning on overseeding my pastures this spring with a clover fescue mix. I am not sure about renting a no till drill or broadcast seeding. I think you said that you mainly broadcast and that you had combined seeding and harrowing. Do you have any preference between these methods. Since the last time I posted we have gotten all the perimeter fences done and also picked up some pharo influenced heifers and a "used" pharro bull. I should have calves starting in may from a different pharro bull. I hope in the next couple weeks that we will have at least 15 acres set up with lanes so it's gonna be a busy spring


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## agmantoo

RBC81
Depending on where you are located you are timing things very close. From growing zone 7 and South the seed need to be sown. Trying to establish forage and have a herd graze the same season is not possible for me with fescue. The fescue needs to get its roots established prior to grazing or the cattle will pull the grass up as they graze. You can get some clover established but will be limited with your Spring planting as to the variety. Predicated on where you are located you may want to consider Alice (not Alyce) as the clover for Spring planting. I do not like drilled forage as the spacing between the drill disc will not fill in and will remain in rows for years. If I do drill I will immediately broad cast some seed to correct the row situation. I think I would let the cattle walk the fescue seed and immediately pull a drag harrow as I moved them to different areas. What is currently growing on the parcels that you are planning to seed? I would broad cast the clover and patiently let it spread. You will need to prevent the grass for growing to the height that it will shade the clover excessively. It is somewhat difficult to balance the clover to grass ratio. At this time I have too much clover and it gets a head start on the grass thus suppressing the grass. I started today introducing the herd to some of my heavy stands of cover in order to hold the clover in check and to get the cows started on becoming conditioned to the heavy intake of legumes that is about to occur. If I introduce the cattle slowly to the clover I do not expect to have any bloating issues. The clover is in the background and the last of the stockpiled fescue is in the foreground.


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## RBC81

The pastures that I am looking to reseed are "weeds". I can't identify what kind of grass is in the pasture there are spots of fescue and orchard grass and clover. The pastures were overgrazed by the previous tenant. There is not a good turf of any kind. Hopefully rotational grazing will help the grasses to come back out. There is several acres of Bermuda which i am leaving alone because it will keep growing thru the hot part of the summer. There is also one field of lespedeza which seems to grow when nothing else will as long as you keep it cut. Once the "weeds" turn green I may snap a pic to see if anyone can identify them. I appreciate all the advice you give on this thread.

RBC81


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## agmantoo

RBC81

Weeds are a good indicator. If land will not grow weeds it will not grow a crop or forage. You are correct in that rotational grazing will promote the return of grass and legumes. How many months of grazing can you get from Bermuda grass? Do you have access to a rotary mower than can hold the height of the trash to 6 inches of the trash that grows on the place?


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## RBC81

I should be able to get 6 months on the Bermuda but it will stand up to hot dry weather pretty well. I have a rotary cutter. I had the height set at 8 in last year do you think I need to lower it to 6 or just keep it cut. 

When you are stockpiling how do you keep the grass from going to seed or do you. Is a stockpiled left alone completely for awhile or is it just moved through the cycle faster.


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## agmantoo

RBC81,
I actually stockpile two times each year. The usual Fall period and also in the late Spring. I clip the seed heads off all the fescue and only permit the grass that I am going to harvest replacement seed from to reach maturity. Typically we have a dry period in mid July to late August and it is so hot that little will grow here so I stockpile for that period as well as for Winter. The reason I asked about the Bermuda was to be able to compare it to how much grazing I can get from the fescue. With rain, the fescue will give me more than 8 months of grazing. In most years I will not get any growth for 6 plus weeks in the summer and minimal growth in Jan. and Feb. totally about 15 to 16 weeks. The conventional pasture producers here manage about 6 plus months of grazing on fescue but may make some hay in the Spring off their pastures. I recycle the biomass to the paddock soils if I have excess. When stockpiling for Winter I will get some minimal seed head production that I ignore off the Fall regrowth. However most of the areas to be stockpiled was grazed close during the summer and will not reach seed head production before frost. The herd is kept completely off the stockpiled paddocks until that grass is allocated daily. At this time I have maybe 5 acres of stockpiled grass remaining. The cattle eat the current grass just as readily as they ate the first stockpiled grass given 2 plus months ago. Are you aware of the protein content that exists in frosted on fescue? 
The reason I suggested dropping down to 6 inches was to protect the grass but to impact the weeds. 8 inches should be OK but you may have to clip more often. Timely doing rotational grazing will do far more than you may realize to get rid of weeds and to promote desirable forage. I had a neighbor to "drop in" today to ask about fertilizer prices as he thought that I had already applied commercial fertilizer since my pastures were greener than the surrounding area. I think once you start caring for your pastures in a similar manner you will see results far greater than you best expectation.


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## godsgapeach

Hey, Agman, can you remind me what it was about the Alyce clover that you didn't like? Mama was near a seed store and I specifically asked her to get A-L-I-C-E if they had any, but she came home with Alyce anyway--not but 5#, but still...

We finally have some hot wire and we've just been busting it to get all the wire up and running.


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## agmantoo

Hi!
Alyce is an annual that needs to be reseeded that provides warm season grazing on prepared soil.

Alice is a perennial that is a good companion to fescue that provides high nitrogen fixation as well as grazing. With fescue as our base grass and it needing nitrogen and myself not wanting to purchase commercial fertilizer it is a great clover. Alice tolerates broadcast planting also. On page 2 at this site http://www.bestforage.com/aitdownloadablefiles/download/aitfile/aitfile_id/61/ you can read about the Alice in detail. 

I am glad to hear that you are making progress. Your getting into rotational grazing is anxiously awaited by me. Just a side note...I made it through another Winter on no hay. Your new calves looked great and I am curious of what your Dad's comments are. Are the large frame brood cows still around?


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## godsgapeach

Thanks for the link, Agman. So far my seed guys around here haven't been able to find Alice. Thankfully one of them called me to clarify before he ordered the wrong thing. Can you point me in the direction of a source for it? Or did you just go through Barenbrug? or Bestforage? I went ahead and pitched out the Alyce seed--figured it couldn't hurt anything.

Daddy is really proud of the calves and of all the work that's getting done. Yes, we still have the monstrous cows--I think his reasoning was since they weren't eating more than before, he'd get one more calf out of them. It IS on the list of to do's though before we start rationing the forage.


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## agmantoo

Here is a source and they will pay 1/2 of the shipping if you buy 50 lbs or more. 50 lbs should do 16 acres once you get the Herd seeder set. As you are aware you need to get the seed out and possibly let the cattle walk the seed in since the weather is wet.
http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=340

I am pleased your Dad is happy with the changes. 

Just a suggestion, check around and see if anyone in your area is ceasing a commercial Angus operation and try to obtain some cows that may be destined for market and select some smaller framed cows to produce you some heifers out of the new bull. There is a family near me that will be disposing of their entire small herd (roughly 20 or less cows) due to a death in the family. I have not seen the herd but I know the herd was well managed and that this is a closed herd except for the bull(s).


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## godsgapeach

That was the same site I'd found, Agman. Thanks again.

I'll have to look around to find a commercial Angus farm--most in the immediate area are mixed like ours. I'll see what I can find. Great suggestion!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,
Today I was repairing some Winter damage to the pastures and bursting manure pats to distribute the fertilizer for the Spring growth and recalled your inquiry regarding the Alice clover. When I moved to the paddock with the oldest stand of the Alice clover I took a pic so you can see how it comes through the Winter. The Alice clover is the most prolific clover variety that I have planted.


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## godsgapeach

That looks GREAT, Agman! Do you know about how long ago that was planted? And that just broadcast and cow-tramped in--Right?

I spent yesterday pounding in PowerFlex posts--might look like a linebacker before we get them all in, but they're going in pretty easily since we've had so much rain. We do have a lot of rocks so they'd be more troublesome if the ground was dry.

If anybody else plans to use them, in my experience, I've found that using a standard post driver works better than a spring loaded one. The posts have so much give that the spring driver takes way longer to pound the post to the desired depth.

I took the Alice info to the local seed guy from the mom and pop shop we buy from. He'd told me that Pennington had "never heard of it." (Pennington Seed is here in town.) I told him Pennington's Alyce page does say, "not to be confused with ALICE" so they do know it exists, but don't carry it. He just asked how I knew it'll grow here. I just said, "Well we're going to find out." 

Oh one more question--on your hairpins. I know you told me to give them an extra loop so they'll stay on the wire and not fling off into the pasture. HOW do you twist them? I've tried several things and looked again at the pictures you've shown but I keep coming out with pretzels. 

Thanks again for everything!


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach,
The Alice clover in the pic was planted in the Fall of 2008. It was only broadcast.

Pennington headquarters knows the difference. They paid 1/2 the price to replace the Alyce they initially supplied to purchase the correct Alice. My dealer picked up the other 1/2. I had the loss of the time and potential use of the failed effort. As you may know I planted the Alyce and lost it to cold weather. Alyce is a warm weather clover. A letter was sent out by Pennington to inform the dealers that Alyce and Alice were not the same. 
On the hairpins. Bet a small shanked screwdriver and by holding the handle place the shank adjacent and parallel to the fence wire. Put the eye of the hairpin over both the shank and the fence wire. Use your other hand and grasp one leg of the hairpin and simple twist the leg around the shank and fence wire to form a cursive e. I can do this free hand. If you lack the hand strength simply get a small diameter and short length of tubing and put the leg of the hairpin inside the tube and use the tube for leverage to form the wrap. It is important to keep the eye of the cursive e large enough that the fence wire can move freely.


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## ds40

Agmantoo. How do you manage the clover to prevent it from overtaking the fescue? I have some very large areas(wet spots) that the grass appears to have died out. This is an established stand. It's over thirty years old. Very wet for the last three years in the ozarks white clover did not go dormant in the summer nor the fescue.


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## agmantoo

ds40

Keeping the clover under control is difficult as you know.

The easiest thing to do is to spray with 2-4-D during the dormant summer slump of the fescue and then to heavily reseed the fescue as soon as the season permits. I dislike doing that and I have tried grazing the clover into submission but with little success. Also I have tried to suppress the clover with a disc and then reseeding again with excessive grass seed. If you happen to hit the weather just right this will work to some extent. Nothing works as good as the herbicide. I am finally getting a lot of earthworms and I intend to keep them so I am trying to learn how to get along with the clover. The cattle stay fat on the clover but since I cannot stockpile it a problem exists. Right now I am overseeding the clover with fescue trying to establish more grass. Fescue seed are plentiful as I harvest my own so I put out a lot of seed with my fingers crossed as I try to crowd the clover.


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## godsgapeach

FINALLY!!! Not done by a long shot, but today we got the cows totally off the paddock area. They're not at all happy about it and I probably won't be able to move tomorrow after chasing a few all over the place.

We're down to pounding in the rest of the powerflex posts and running 3 strands of wire before all the paddocks are ready to go.

The Alice seed got here today and there's no danger of having any grain drill rows--too many persimmon stobs would keep us repairing more than planting.

And the persimmons are beginning to leaf out.

Agman--question (as usual). How much leaf should I let grow before I spray the Remedy? Right now the persimmons are mostly showing leaf buds, but it won't be long before they're covered!

Plenty more to be done, but I'm pretty proud of what we've accomplished so far!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

Let the persimmons leaf on out to a near full size leaf but while the leaves are still tender spray. Get the leaves as saturated as possible but not to the point of run off. Remember the Hook is the last thing added but make certain the solution gets mixed thoroughly then start applying.

Do I understand from your above post that you have the partition fences with 3 strands of high tensile wire?

I think that you have crossed a major hurdle and that you are well on your way now! I know you feel relieved to have reached this point. 

PS...it is essential to get the cattle to where they respect the electrified fence. You may have to limit the distribution of the fence charger output to just the paddock the animals are in initially. Move them the first few days before they get to wanting more forage so they will not "test" the fence. They will train readily and associate your frequenting the paddocks with an upcoming move. Within a week to 10 days they will be standing huddled awaiting patiently for your arrival. I try to move about the same time each day. Repeating what I have said before......you can tell if you are allocating the correct amount of area to be grazed by observing the cattle. A calm non bawling move and they met their needs in the area just completed. Just make certain that your expectations were met also in that enough forage was consumed and not wasted. Standing and bawling and then rushing into a new area by the herd and they were dissatisfied from the previous allocation. Within a brief time the whole sequence will become "old hat".


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## godsgapeach

Here's what we've done so far... 

The yellow is 5 strand barbwire. The red is new 5-strand hot wire. The blue is the new single strand that's complete and is keeping the girls on the back of the field. 










They learned to respect the hot wire a couple of weeks ago when we finished the 5-strand and the little section of single strand that angles off at the bottom of the lot (on the far right). Several of them had to test it a time or two, but I think they're believers now.

And it's taken me a while to figure out what you meant by 3 strands. To clarify--no. I mean I've got to partition off 4 more paddocks on the creek side (lay out 3 single strands) and all the wire will be put out. The lane and the 4 paddocks on the road side are laid out already and the wire just has to go up on the posts. Does that make better sense?

And YES! I am relieved. I took the day off to take the kids to the UGA Vet school open house, but I'll be back at it full throttle tomorrow. I can't wait to post pics of things in action!


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## Hogleg

Speaking of respect, I have some cows that are in need of some training. I am just starting the rotation and I have one bred heifer with horns that has somehow figured out how to knock down the temporary wire and let her friends into the new grass. Not sure how she is doing it. My horses have sincere respect for the wire. I see them jump if they accidentally touch it.

I have been real persnickety about my fencing using insulators, so not sure if that the ohm range is proper for my fencing. I have a mix of 5 - strand Ht and a 6th hot top wire braided horse rope to improve visibility for my horses. My lower 2 hot lines go thru a kenco current limiter to reduce voltage loss. I disconnected that and saw no change in voltage on the non-load limited lines. I am using a mix of wood and fiberglass posts, with black tube insulators on the hot lines at the wood posts. Short ones for a line post and long ones for around the corner posts. All HT graded insulators, I believe.

I am using a Parmak Magnum 12 that is giving me around 3.7 -4.2 K volts (measured with a meter). Open circuit is 9.5K volts so that seems to spec. According to the parmak info my fencing must be around 400 ohms which does not seem right. I see leakage of 1-2K volts to my non-energized and non-grounded intermediate lines. Is that normal? 

Do I need to move up to a more powerful charger like a SE-4 or the Range Master? I kind of like being on 12v to help avoid a power line lightning strike. 
An SE-4 at 400 ohms should give me around 6000 volts. Rangemaster looks about the same. 

Could I have a ground problem? I see no difference if I push my meter into the ground vs attaching to the ground rods, and I see the same consistent voltage reading as I walk the entire fence. 

Thoughts? Lots of questions...

John


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## godsgapeach

Hogleg, I don't know what anybody else would advise, but I do know the Parmak Rangemaster packs quite a wallop. That's the one we went with because I know we've got some hard headed cows that would need some powerful convincing. So far it's working well.

On Saturday when I got out to work, a cow was on the wrong side of the hot wire staring at the rest of the herd. Apparently she'd been down in the creek when we pushed the rest out of the paddock area. I raised up the wire on the pvc pipe (like Agman has mentioned earlier in the thread), but she wanted no part of it even though we walked off and let her think about it for a couple of hours. I finally ended up unclipping the wire from 2 more posts, dropping the pvc, and putting the wire on the ground. After another 30-45 minutes she finally walked across it.

Training them to use the pvc method is my next challenge...


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## agmantoo

John
You need a Stafix Fence Compass or equivalent. This device is a multimeter designed to measure the output of fence chargers and to also help you locate ground faults. It is not cheap but if cared for will last a long time. Problems can be located promptly and you can determine the voltage on the fence. It has been my experience that a minimum of 3500 volts at the farthest location is required to hold cattle. Obviously more is better! You did not state what type of metr you are using to get your reading. A regular multimeter should not be use to measure fence charger output. Also, how many acres do you have within the energized fence? My guess is you have a short on one or more of the hot wire to the wooden post for the non hot wires to pick up power. I have seen the black tube insulators cut through from the inside when the high tensile is tightened when used on corners.

PS...A non loaded output reading of a fence charger is misleading. By law the output of a fence charger is limited to 10,000 volts after a child was harmed in the late 90's. It is the amperage at the 10,000 volts that makes the attention really perk up. The semiconductors in the more expensive chargers are very high current handling components as compared to the cheap chargers and that drives the price up. The units are priced too high for what we get regardless! It is the very short duration of the spark that avoids the field fires that the old weed burners were known for.


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## Hogleg

Thanks Agman - Will look into that short locator. I disconnected 1/2 of the run and the voltage went to 7000 volts, so I now know which way to go to look for the short. These high voltage shorts are hard to diagnose, and I have an electrical background to boot.

Here is the meter I am using - 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/electr...digital-electric-fence-voltage-tester-3600134 

It looked similar to the Kencove one that they said was quite accurate.

Here are the short tubes - 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/fencin...sile-ribbed-tube-insulator-pack-of-25-3601229

Here are the long tubes - 

http://www.kencove.com/fence/Wood+Post+Insulators_detail_I40.php

Used both Dare and Zareba brands of these, not the kencove ones. 

I will look into the shorting situation. 

I have around 12 acres of fenced paddock. Probably better than 10,000 feet of Ht wire, plus 2000 feet of horsebraid rope.

John


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## agmantoo

John
How many conductors are in the horsebraid rope? I use the polywire with 9 strands of stainless steel.

I do not know the manner you have the rope and the HT wire connected together and to the charger. I would run the HT wire for the first conductor and then connect the HT wire to the Horsebraid. It can be difficult to get the rope or poly to contact to the HT wire. Normally I will wrap the poly around the HT wire, similar to the knot of a hangmans noose, in an attempt to get as many of the fine wires contacting the 12 1/2 gauge HT wire as possible. There is a lot of loss in the fine wires in the poly/rope as the circumfrence is what controls the resistance along with the material of a wire. Provided you can get 7000 volts around the 12 acres you should be fine.


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## Hogleg

Agman,

I use the 9 strand polywire with stainless conductors. I bought the polyrope clamps at kencove that bond to it tightly. I run 4 hot conductors, and 2 non-hot. From the bottom up I have 4 spaced at 6 in , then one at 8 in and lastly one at 10 in. The first 2 HT are hot, but current limited, then a non-hot HT, then a hot HT, another non-hot HT then the polyrope. I use the middle hot HT to insure good conductivity around the entire perimeter, and feed each poly rope from the ht at corners. The voltage measured at the poly is identical to the HT voltage. 

I still have some of my older t-post, 17 ga fencing with yellow t-post insulators that is not yet taken down. I disconnected some of that and saw the voltage go up. As soon as possible, I will take that down and I am guessing that my voltage problem will go away. 

Thanks so much for the help. 7K volts is my target. Funny, 3.5-4k volts is enough to get my respect :run:

John


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## trbizwiz

HI everyone. and a special thanks to "doc" agmantoo. You deserve an honorary doctorate for your free professorship. You are providing an invaluable service to us all. I have spent the last week reading this entire thread. I have many of my questions answered especially about stock piling for winter and drought. 
Like agman, I come from a postage stamp home growing up. I am in my mid thirties and have always dreamed of being a farmer. 3 years ago my wife and i bought 5 acres and built a house. Last year I put up 5 strand ht wire on powerflex posts around the perimeter of about 3.5 acres. I have an option on 26 adjacent acres and possibly another 140. SO we will see how this all goes over the next couple of years.
I did purchase 2 red polled heifers last fall, and took them through the winter on stockpiled forage. A hodgepodge of fescue, orchard grass,and clover. They dont seem to like orchard grass after it matures. 
This spring I planted brome grass and some kenstar red clover. I am hoping that works out better than the OG. But after reading this thread, maybe Ill just let it be and let the fescue take back over. I intend to supplement winter stock pile with some cereal rye and brassicas. I have a pull behind broadcast spreader (it is the pto type, but has a cast iron axle and rubber tires to power it rather than a tractor pto), and a badboy mower that serves as my tractor. 
Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and thank everyone for their contributions. This has been a great read, probably more informative than my last two years of reading the stockman grass farmer (which I truly love, and look forward to each issue).
I am in southwest Missouri, as I see a few other posters here are. My eventual goal is grass fed and finished. I also hope to direct market. I will likely supplement getting to that point with feeder calf sales. Because I will need both portions of land available to me in order to direct market. But if you don't set your sights high, you may trip over them .
Please everyone keep up the good work. Ill try to post a few pics later. Oh, I found this thread, by searching for bottle calfs. I bought 4 of them 4 weeks ago. I just introduced them to pasture today. I will probably cut them 2 one bottle feeding per day, and hopefully they will learn from the reds how to eat grass. They seem very interested in each other. I have them separated but in side by side paddocks. I may combine them tomorrow. I am hoping my red girls will be ready for breeding late next month. I haven't noticed them cycling yet thought, and I check them every day. So it may be June.

Tom


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## trbizwiz

I forgot to mention, I want to be as organic as possible. I intend to use no inputs other than seed and lime. I have spread about 2000 pounds of lime in the last month and I will likely do another 3000. My soil ph is around 5.8 to 6 according to a hand held meter. My last soil sample is 2 years old so I am due for another one of those. Also I spray bokashi liquid on my field at a 20 to 1 ratio every month. We make it by composting our table scraps with bokashi enzyme. It is supposed to help the healthy soil creatures grow. It seems as though the earth worms have increased since starting it. This stuff is also supposed to be great for getting rid of bad bacterias, and it is good for animal consumption. We will see how it works out. It costs me virtually nothing, and I enjoy being out in my field working, so the spraying is no big deal either.
I also have 7 black jersey giant chickens to help keep flys and such under control. I started with 25, but I learned a few hard lessons about raising chickens from chicks starting in the wet rainy fall. I do have 50 rode island reds coming tomorrow. I should do better with them. I learned hard and fast that chicks don't do cold or wet well.

Tom


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## trbizwiz

I'll weight in on the electric fence testing. I have a stayfix tester very nice spendy units. If you make a mess of your fence by using the black plastic tubing for wrap around insulators, these testers are nearly worthless. But when you go back and do it right with the end strainer insulators, these stayfix testers are the bomb. And if you buy one of the pricey chargers from stayfix, the tester can work as a remote to turn off the charger and turn it back on. 
I always check on my animals wearing my Muck boots, it is usually wet or what ever, so they work well. Well I have gotten into a lazy habit of touching the energized fence when I need to to step over a poly wire. Well today I went out to move the girls over closer to the new bottle calves, and I had tennis shoes on. Well lesson learned tennis shoes plus hand on wooden end post equal seeing heaven briefly. I wish I had bought that big charger, that my tester could turn off remotely. 
The folks over at power-flex fence where very helpful so I pretty much bought everything from them. It didn't hurt that they are only an hour away so I could save shipping.


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## godsgapeach

Welcome to the thread, trbizwiz. 

You're right, Agman sure does get most of the credit for setting the rest of us straight. 

I'll have to check into the bokashi. That's something I've not heard of at all.


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## trbizwiz

The contributors of the many different questions are also to thank for the success of this thread. Most of my questions have been answered because someone has already asked them.

Tom


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## Hogleg

trbizwiz,

I sold my first grass fed steer in December. I only was able to sell 1/4 of him but that was enough to cover my costs completely. I bought 2 angus cow/calf pairs and 2 bottle calf heifers that are all re-bred. I have a young angus heifer that was too young to breed and an angus steer that will got to freezer camp in the summer. The customer that I sold the beef to is already asking for when we will slaughter again.

The beef is outstanding. I have a clover legume field that is my only input other than grass hay in the winter. I am trying to extend some of my pasture so that I can begin stockpiling. Buying hay will make me go poor. Only thing I have not gotten used to is the flavor of the fat. I used to eat the fat on the corn fed steaks we would buy. Now I cut it off. Tastes a bit gamey.

John


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## trbizwiz

I don't want to side track from the thread too much, but is there any information out there that would indicate if different forages would have a different effect on the fat flavor? Also did your steer have a consistent diet during the last 90 days of life? would it make a difference if he were finished on cereal rye or some sweeter forages?
I plan to go the feeder calf route for a while, until I build up some experience on finishing which I assume will take a lot of experience to do that well.


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## Hogleg

What we grow and how it relates to the cattle is on topic, I think, so I will answer this. 

The steer was on my property for 14 months and was butchered at 900 lbs. I fed some creep feed for the first 3 months because I did not have good enough pasture. Then my clover really took off. I have both white and red clover, along with festuolium and orchard grass, but the white clover is the predominant forage. I butchered in December. Starting in early November, I had to switch to hay. The hay was mostly orchard, timothy and small amounts of red clover and lespedeza. So he was on cut hay for around 5 weeks. He was a mostly white with brown spotted calf whose breeding was unknown. 

For this black angus steer, he will be on clover for 5-6 months prior to butcher - no cut hay. He is 100% angus, and his body size/weight is excellent, much better than the prior steer. He has never been fed creep or any other feed product. 

John


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## trbizwiz

I read somewhere over the last 2 years that I have been researching, that during rumen change there is an acid or something in the steers system that can cause an off flavor, and the longer the carcase is aged the more off the flavor is. It said to maintain a steady and consistent diet 90 days prior to slaughter to help avoid this. As with anything farming related you can read a lot of things. I don't know if this is factual or not. It was and is my intention to follow it to be on the safe side. I wish i knew where I read it.


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## trbizwiz

The bokashi I referenced earlier is a beneficial microorganism. Supposedly it helps plants better utilize the minerals and such in the ground. The kit I use is called Happy Farmer. It is a square 5 gallon bucket with a tap in the bottom and a strainer. Essentially you put all your food scraps in it meat and all. You sprinkle this enzyme stuff on it, and let it ferment for a period of time. You drain the juice off and I mix it 1 qt to 20 gallons of water in my pull behind boom sprayer. It is supposed to help turn thatch into usable carbon, and fight off various plant infections. The solids are great compost starter in my compost tumbler. I buy the bags of starter for the enzyme from ebay. They run $11 shipped and seem to last around 3 months for a gallon.
maybe it is a waste of my time, but it feels good to reduce, reuse, and recycle. I really like agmans approach of fabricating the tools he needs out of something else.


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## wstevenl

This goes right along with the spray that you are talking about...
I have read about two different people experimenting with spraying organic, grassfed (not sure if it matters), RAW (def. matters) milk on their pasture. The rate was 3 lbs per acre and my guess is that it was diluted in water. Just as you say, the reason was not to add the nutrients of the milk to the pasture it was to add the enzymes and feed the microbes in the soil. Both had great results and i remember one guy saying that his hay production grew 50% that year. People often ask how in the world you can take take take and not give back to the soil with fert. but the answer is healthy microbial life in the soil. This is killed off by all the chems used, including most wormer.


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## trbizwiz

The enzymes from bokashi come from yeast and yogurt and some sort of grass enzyme. Those three sources in balance make up the bokashi em liquid. You can tell when they are in balance by the ph and by the smell. It smells like a sweet cider vinegar. IF the ph drops drastically it is bad, out of balance. Like I said before the only thing I have really noticed is an increase in earth worms. But I have been messing with my forage so much It is hard to tell yet by that. Plus I committed the cardinal sin 18 months ago and sprayed round up. Before I knew what a no no it was organically. So i have been trying to rectify that with the bokashi. Hopefully good management from here on out and bokashi will make my sins go away. I did not have any animals on the land for 12 months after I sprayed. And we had record rains in between (they even destroyed my swimming pool) so hopefully the round up is gone and I am restoring the healthy balance of micro's. I do have turkey litter nearby, and quarries for lime. So I will utilize those assets as inputs.


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## anvoj

hi, 
I hope everybody's having a productive spring.
This bokashi is a culture of some kind, right? So why do you need to keep buying it over and over again, if you're growing it in your kitchen? Seems like it should keep indefinitely if you keep feeding it. Maybe freeze a bit of it for a starter, like you do with yogurt. But I don't know anything about it, just a thought. You may also want to check out the next-best thread on the forum, "extreme composting," over in the "general questions" area of the forum, for some inspiration.


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## trbizwiz

I thought I would post a couple of pics of my girls. Now they are not black like agman likes, but they are approx frame 3.5 and they are both 1 year old.








the tan dead grass looking area in the background is where a water line was run under the pasture and I haven't gotten forage established there yet. It just had weeds growing on it, and they died off over the winter.








the tan grass in the foreground is zoyzia that hasn't greened up yet. That is my back yard and not part of the forage plan, it was chosen because it is short and that seemed appropriate around my pool, less mowing less mess.


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## trbizwiz

Since I moved them into the paddock in the picture, and the bottle calves are in the paddock right next to it, the bottle calves are eating grass well. I may be able to stop the bottle feedings all together next week for 3 of them. The Jersey calf is very thin he may get a few extra feedings. I did take the bottle calves in the barn last night because of a cold front and thunder storm possibility last night. I have noticed this morning that their poop looks much more like cow poop should look, so they are digesting the grass well. However I read that cows cant use the forage until they are about 12 weeks and they either need mothers milk, grain or bottle for feed in addition to grass. Anyone know if this is accurate? I know I could get an answer froma bottle calf thread, but since they are not shooting for an all grass diet their answer may not be wholly accurate.
One of them was sick right after I first got them 4 weeks ago. I noticed a small amount of blood in a dark colored stool. I called the feed store, they said occidiosis, and sold me some corid and some medicated feed. I could not get any of them to drink appreciable fluids, so I put the corid in their bottles at 1.5cc per bottle 2 times per day. I did that for 6 days and all seems well with them. They have also been happily eating the medicated feed which made their stools look like dog poop. However after eating grass which learned from watching the red poll's in the paddock next to them their stool looks more appropriate.


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## trbizwiz

Sorry to kill this thread.
Back on topic. Prior to starting this thread I had layed out my paddocks, and set most of the posts. I have the perimeter fence up. My pasture has two areas a larger area that is 380 by 340 adn a smaller area that is 120 by 200. I figured on the 120 by 200 section I would just allot the amount of grass the cows need per day. the section they are photoed in above is bid enough for about 3 days but I am just getting everything figured out. 
Anyway, for the larger section I have been setting posts to divide it into 4 lanes. That will give me 4 80ish by 380 ish lanes. After reading Agmans posts I am thinking maybe I should not have divided it up so much. Though the narrow lanes will make moving my small number of cows much easier. I currently have 2 heifers and 4 bottle calves. I will probably only carry 4 total through the winter. I hope to sell 2 of the bottle calves this fall to off set some of my expenses this year. Anyone have any input on my lanes. As I said I have set the posts, but I have only run high tensile wire on one of the 4.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz,

If your animals are frame 3.5 at a year of age they will be considerable larger by maturity.

Regarding your paddock layout. How are your animals to get water and are you providing shade or a lounging area?
Can you sketch a layout of what you plan to do then post it here?
I calculated that you have 3.4 acres for the 2 yearlings and the calves. With rain and careful management you should be able to get through the Summer on the forage you have but it will be tight.


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## agmantoo

I need some assistance and/or clarification.

If you read this and were into rotational grazing would you think this is doable? 
"They have done research and determined the stocking rates for various soils, climate types, etc. All you should have to do is find that info and plug in your numbers. This is a far better method (assuming you find some stocking rates that work for your area) than looking at the grass height and guessing when you should move."

I have mulled through the quoted statement above and for the life of me I cannot conclude how a person(s) can establish on paper when to move cattle that are being rotationally grazed. IMO there are too many variables. For example....where are we in the growing season? has if rained or is it dry? did we have an extended cold season or is it unseasonably hot? did we cull some cattle or have the calves grown to where they need more feed? how do we adjust in order to stockpile for upcoming Winter? has the grass gone dormant or is the newly planted seed about to have a burst of growth? etc? Anyway you now see the quandary. This post is not meant to insult or demean anyone. I just need help understanding.


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## trbizwiz

Thanks agman. I don't have a provision for shade. That is one reason I originally chose red polls. That and they are supposed to be a smaller breed better for grazing. Though I am concerned mine may not be so small. I'll try to get a better measurent today. I guestimated 46 to 48 inches. 
I ran a 1.5 Inch water line midway through the whole field. I'll show it on the diagram later. I currently have hydrants every 200 feet and I use hose and a 100 gallon watered with a float. I move it to each paddock when I move the cows. I am considering switching to your watering method when funds permit. The infrastructure is there. The way I set the pasture up with cross fence divides it into 4 80ish feet wide lanes 340 ish feet long. The water line is in the middle. I also have a 4 foot tower sprinkler that will reach 80 feet in diameter so I figure 12 hours of that after moving the cows and 12 hours 1 paddock ahead should compensate for some drought. My well puts out up to 22 gallons per minute. It's a variable speed unit for irrigation systems. It will fill my 78,000 gallon pool in roughly 5 days while still permiting water usage in the house. So I am hopeful on my small scale we can be maximally effecient on small acreage. As soon as my home equity line is paid off I plan to purchase ajoining property roughly 26 acres. I really like my potential here. I dug every post hole by hand and hit no rocks until 2 feet depth. That is unheard of in this part of the country but I am in the middle of a very flat area that may not have been subject to the erosion. I think when my ph is under control and my organic matter an microbes are improved I'll have something very special here. 
Back to the girls if the turn out to be much bigger than 3.5 at maturity I should be able to sell them as cow calf pairs and get enough for a few frame 3's and a start on a frame 3 bull. So we shall see how it goes. I figured start small cause the "wish I woulda's" will be cheaper. But my goals are big. 
Thanks again for your time and thoughts. If I get annoying just tell me to bugg off. I tend to get very excited.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz, where are you located? You may have stated but if so I missed the information. PS....I tend to be blunt so do not get offended. We will get along fine. If you could not get excited then I may think you had little interest.


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## trbizwiz

I live in southwest Missouri. Right between Springfield and joplin near Branson. 
I tend to like direct people, so we will get along just famously.


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## DenMacII

Hello All, May I chime in with a couple questions? 

I have 5.25 acres of land which is mostly irragated pasture that is fenced and cross-fenced. Recently we added 2 angus head to our property and have been rotational grazing them on about 3.5 acres - split into 6 pastures by electric wire. We are moving the cattle every 4 to 7 days depending on the size of the pasture and how fast they much down the good grasses.

My first dilema is that not all the pasture area has good grasses, so of course the two munch down the good stuff and avoid the stuff they don't like. What is the best way to get rid of the bad grasses? Do I till them under, or crowd them out with good seed? If I am seeding is simple broadcasting good enough, or do we try a no-till drill?

The second dilema is that our irrigated pasture has sprinkler heads scattered throughout the pastures - and the cattle love to scratch themselves under the chin on them pretty well breaking them when they do. What is the best way to utilize the underground lines without having the above ground breakables? Replacing several heads everytime they come off a pasture is not an option I can afford.

Thanks for any insight you may have.

Dennis


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## agmantoo

DenMacII

Have you read in this sticky how to make the long 2 sided paddocks then use the polywire to limit the amount of area allocated. IMO you are allowing the animals to large of an area for too long a time period. Since you have water have you considered adding legumes to the pasture forage? What are you doing about the manure piles in the paddocks?

As for the risers on the irrigation system, is it feasible to cut the risers off near the ground and install ball valves and quick disconnects so that the risers can be removed when not in use?
http://kygraziers.com/kgshop/section.php?xSec=44&xPage=1&jssCart=89067914ccde8c0a80354158bb2cdc1a


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## trbizwiz

Another thought. GO to your nearest tire dealer. See if they have any used tires destined for salvage. Ask if you could have a couple for free. Throw the tires over the sprinkler heads in the paddock that the cows are in, that should protect them. 
seems strange with irrigation you would have scrub weeds. Have you considered getting a soil sample done. Ill bet your PH is low.
Keeping the cows on smaller paddocks will get them used to eating more of the better forage and trampling the stuff they wont eat. Then mow what ever is left standing. When your soil has what it needs the good forage should dominate.


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## trbizwiz

Here is a picture of the pasture layout as it currently exists.


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## agmantoo

With no shade I would go to the top right part of this drawing and on the end to the right side of the gate I would erect a shaded loafing area with the greenhouse shade fabric. Additionally I would use the polywire to erect a lane parallel to the fence portion that has the tree gates. This lane would control where the animals move or have access in the pasture. With having irrigation no back grazing would be permitted and no grassed area would be stressed from lack of water. I would spot irrigate if possible. The animals should exit the paddocks when they are through grazing and rest and chew their cud in the shade. This will take a lot of hoof traffic off the grass and thus encourage better growth of both animals and forage.


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## godsgapeach

Got my 50# of Alice clover planted yesterday. Hoping to get 4 of 8 paddocks totally up and running today. Of course, plans are easily changed... Who knows how it'll turn out?! 

Denmac, if you can't change out the risers, have you seen how some folks use a 2 foot chunk of 6ish inch pvc to cover their quick connects on their water lines? If you could sink the pvc just a bit (with cut outs for the pipe), it might help. I've got a picture of one if you need a visual--just let me know.


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## trbizwiz

I have a bunch of that 1.5 inch pvc left. I am contemplating making a movable shade house. It could also be tarped in the winter for shelter from the cold wind. Think that'll work?


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## DenMacII

All sprinkler locations have tires around them and ball valves, but Agmantoo's recommendation on the quick connect is a huge help. We have 1 1/2 inches of gravity fed raw water (that's a 1 1/2" opening at the raw water ditch) that travels about 1/4 mile downhill in 2" pipe on to our property where the irrigation lines vary from 1" to 3/4".

There is some developing clover in all the pastures and that seems to get eaten first.

I can, and plan, to reduce paddock size and increase rotation frequency as these two get settled in to their new environment. The cow is expecting - and based on service date should calve in about 10 days. Since acquiring these two a month ago they have not yet gone back onto a previous pasture yet. 

I think I am a very impatient-patient person. I know that the development of our pasture will not happen overnight. The previous owner of this property had used the land very well in the 70's and into the 80's - but as I've often read elsewhere they became too old to keep up with livestock so the land has not been used for over 15 years before we bought the property 4 years ago. Everytime I think I've figured out the existing irrigation system, I discover a burried valve box or some other piece to the puzzle that was not known before.

As best I can, I have been going through the pasture they came off of and break up the cow pies. I also broadcast a pasture seed mix into their current pasture a day before moving them so they can stomp the seed in for a day. Another project I am also finishing up is a mobile chicken coop that will house about a dozen laying hens that will follow the rotation. The chicks are getting near pullet size and will be out on pasture within about three weeks. The weather this weekend dampened by efforts to finish up the coop.

I think part of our problem over the past two years of trying to develop the pasture was that we did not have livestock on them - excepting one old goat. Finally putting livestock on the pasture should help us greatly in restoring a vibrant pasture. We just want to make that happen as efficiently as possible.


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## NW Rancher

Thought I'd write quick post in here to cheerlead, and answer Agmantoo's post #935. Great questions and info everybody, I'm still following this thread and learning a LOT. Thanks to you all. 

Agmantoo, I read your question and the statement made regarding the movements of cattle in a rotational grazing system, and I echo your sentiments. I've only just started on rotational grazing for my small sheep flock, but I don't know how someone could crunch some numbers and tell me when to move them. I believe there was perhaps an omission in that statement, did they mean in addition to empirical evidence, the numbers can help with planning? There are so many variables, as you say, it just doesn't seem possible to manage movements that way. Perhaps in a theoretical perfect pasture, with even forage in every paddock and a closed, controlled climate, otherwise....?

As a thank you, here's a quick pic of my fledgling rotational grazing efforts. By the way, a dexter cow and her first calf, who is now a week old, have been purchased and just need to be transported. I'm thrilled! Thanks again.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz
I am going to adhere to my earlier suggestion to put the lounging area were the orange and green fences converge at the top right of your layout. There is one main reason for this. That reason is the cattle will use the shade area to the point that the grass will be worn away and you will forfeit that forage. IMO it will be better to concentrate that barren area to a single location rather than many areas that will result from a mobile shade arrangement.


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## godsgapeach

As expected, things didn't go as planned today, but we did get the final wood posts holes drilled and the posts tamped in. So today's to-do list became tomorrow's. But I did happen to have the camera and you can see what the paddock area looks like right now. I'm pretty pleased so far. This is from the paddock closest to the road and the front of the chicken houses diagonally across all 8 paddocks. 










This one isn't the best pic, but it shows a little of the diversity I can see since the cows are off it. 










And can somebody tell me what this is? There's not lots and lots, but there's a fair showing of it around.










Thanks!


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## agmantoo

Your progress is certainly noteworthy.
IMO, that is hairy vetch in pic 2 and dock in pic 3. Vetch is great and will reseed itself. Dock is edible and therefore not a weed in my opinion. To me I never get tired of seeing what is going to recover from an over grazed pasture. Do I dare ask about the persimmon sprouts? Here is a pic of Dock.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...mage_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CBEQ9QEwBA


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## godsgapeach

Dock was my guess, Agman. And I was pretty sure that was vetch. We've got PLENTY of that. There's also a good bit of clover here and there--I just didn't happen to be standing near it. 

I can't remember if I told you my great uncle was farming this area--probably from the 40s until Daddy took it over and rotating/electric fence etc was part of his program. I figure he seeded the vetch at some point. I know he had mainly herefords and they must have been much smaller than the elephants we're dealing with now--the insulators (on some posts still around) are at about 28 inches.


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## agmantoo

NW Rancher

Thanks for your reply to my request.
From the pic it appears your have gotten a good hold on making progress with rotational grazing. I enjoy the pics that folks post as it gives a lot of insight to their operations. I know absolutely nothing about sheep. I would think they will accompany the cattle through the paddocks without impacting the forage the cattle will consume and actually benefiting the overall desirable forages by eating competing weeds.

Thanks for the assist and sharing.


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## agmantoo

It was coincidental that godsgapeach asked about the dock plant because as I rotated paddocks yesterday I took a pic of a dock plant to share elsewhere. Today when I moved the cattle I took an after pic. This is one of the big advantages of rotational grazing. Dock in early stages of growth are seemingly tasty to cattle. I do not know when this one was eaten within the 24 hour time period but this is how weed control is impacted when cattle are restricted to the area allocated for foraging. here is the before








This is ~24 hours afterward. I doubt that this plant will recover


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## ds40

Any chance I can borrow that cow to train mine? Mine leave the dock mostly untouched. I've had cattle in the past that would slick 'em to the ground.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ..... I know absolutely nothing about sheep. I would think they will accompany the cattle through the paddocks without impacting the forage the cattle will consume and actually benefiting the overall desirable forages by eating competing weeds....


I am told this is true with goats because they are browsers that like the woody / stemmed plants that cattle tend not to eat. But I read somewhere that sheep tend to eat the same plants as cattle, and can cause problems because they graze the plants to a height closer to the ground than cattle. That was a source of contention between the shepheards and cattlemen in the west. I have no personal experience with this however. Maybe someone who does can chime in.


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## bruce2288

I raise both sheep and cattle. Sheep preferred grazing would be broadleaf plants. The dock agmantoo showed would be one of the first thing sheep would eat. Legumes would also be very high on the list. In order broadleafs, trees and scrubs lastly grass. Sheep due to narrow muzzle are very selective grazers. I have actually seen sheep bite chew plant matter and drop it. moveing on the a different plant. Some of the so called pasture weeds they graze for me, marjianna, dock, mullein,buckbrush,milkweed,dandelion,elm trees.


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## Narshalla

bruce2288 said:


> I raise both sheep and cattle. Sheep preferred grazing would be broadleaf plants. The dock agmantoo showed would be one of the first thing sheep would eat. Legumes would also be very high on the list. In order broadleafs, trees and scrubs lastly grass. Sheep due to narrow muzzle are very selective grazers. I have actually seen sheep bite chew plant matter and drop it. moving on the a different plant. Some of the so called pasture weeds they graze for me, marjianna, dock, mullein, buckbrush, milkweed, dandelion, elm trees.


Weeds? Weeds!


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## Curtis B

Bruce, do you rotate the sheep with the cattle or after? I have sheep with my cattle and as I work on getting the rotation in order, I have contimplated whether to run the sheep in the same paddock or as I move the cattle out of one, move the sheep into the one the cattle just left. I have read that you can run two sheep to every cow and have no impact.


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## Slugmar

Hello everyone I have some question and give you a basic breakdown on what is going here at my place.

We have around 40 acres of irrigated pasture in Anderson California we do get quite a bit of rain fall during the winter and the summers can get into the 100 degrees. Before I was born some 33 years ago we ran a lot of cows on it in the winter and put them in the hills in the summer for my grandfather and dad could cut hay. Over the last 10 years we strictly cut hay of the place and put some goats on the hill side. The hay market in our area has gone down hill we have over 3k bales of 2 wire 60 to 80lb bales in the barn 2 years ago of hay sales we made about 20k but thatâs also cutting hay for others last year profit wasnât that great but I do put in around a 2 acre garden and sale a lot of produce of the place barely trying I grossed $5000 I know that can go up once I refine my efforts.

This year my dad is kind of backing down and handing me over the rains to try and make a profit I still have a lot of help from my father/mother, my sister and brother in law and my own family of 5 and cousin and his three sons. So I do have a ton of labor all of us trying to get the place to work.

Also living in California Iâm about 3 hours north of Sacramento and SF this gives me a great outlet on selling Pasture raised and organic foods and veggies and getting into a ethnic market such as goat meat.

Iâm going to be experimenting with about 8 acres to show what I can bring cash in and its more profitable then haying the place. Iâm still going to be putting in about a 2 acre garden so that will leave me around 6 acres to experiment with.

Ill be splitting a 4 acre field into 1 and 1/3 acre lots and leaving a the hillside at 2 acreâs the little area that I have left will be separated for the bucks. Iâm raising a little different animal ten you all South African Boer Goats I already get 200 to 300 dollars per goat on private sales for FFA and 4 H kids I get 300 to 1000 for breeding stock and 150 to 300 for ones that are dapple and have a lot of color in them. But even though I have 14 goats and my wife cow/calf they canât keep the area cleaned up so will be purchasing more goats not full blooded like the ones I currently have but a percentage they have to have the Boer look to them. I have talked to a couple sale barns and there getting 100 to 150 for 100lb weather but down in the bay area some cuts of the goat are going for over 12 dollars a lb from what I have been told. I have also been talking to the local cities about using the goats in a weeding program to help control fire as a natural way of weeding natural.

Iâm working towards this to be my fulltime job as I work part time now and my wife is a LVN and works full time and carries the insurance on the family. We us growing and raising our own food it has cut way back on the family food bill. I also do have complete support from all my family members.

That kind of the basic now for some questions

1.)Is there a way to determine stocking methods to begin out with or is just buy touch and fill?
2.)What kind of grass would you recommend we currently have red clover and what ever is native to this area coming up in the field?
3.)Iâm doing 400 ft runs with watering set up on both ends is that okay?
4.)We have never put any fertilizer on the field I think my first step would be a soil test and trying to find a good grass for the goats is this correct?
5.)Instead of moving ever day I would like to move them every 15 days will this be okay?

I do have more but cant think of them right now and will try to keep you all posted on how this works out for my goats.


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## bruce2288

curtis , grazing together will work fine. If you are going to split them, give the group with the greatest nutritional needs first shot at the pasture. That two sheep grazed with no impact is not always true. It depends on the pasture if you have a lot to plants the cattle don't graze maybe. If you have a pasture like agmantoo which is mostly goood grazing plants, sheep will have an impact and cut the carrying capacity of cattle. Slugmar the less time the animals are in a paddock the grass has more time to recover, You get the most impact from frequent moves, ideally 1 hr may be best but impractical. 15 days is better than 3 months, From my research I have read that 6 days is generally when grass has grown enough to be hurt some buy regrazing. This will all vary on growth conditions. Set up what you think is practical and do some experimenting and keep an open mind.


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## trbizwiz

It seems that leaving the animals on a pasture /paddock for 15 days will allow the animals to really over graze the desirable plants while not doing much to hinder the "weeds". I am afraid if you follow your program outlined above you will really just be weed farming. By moving the stock every day you make the desirable forage stronger and with good timing you can reduce your "weeds" drastically. I don't know about goats, but my 2 heifers and my calves are ready and eager to move on to the next paddock when I move them. So it is a fairly quick process. Now the way I have mine set up it is just a matter of making a couple of connections. 
A down side to grazing goats and cows in the same paddock is having to run 2 wire heights on your temporary wires obviously goats need a lower wire than cows.


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## brandybelle

I wish my intensive grazing system was to the point that I had to worry about weeds. I've been following this thread for most of a year watching it. I have a small herd of Dexters which will do fine on the small acreage I have once I have it set up. 

Unfortunately the cart went before the horse and I bought the cattle before the pastures were ready. They have only a small grazing area that I turn them out into for a couple hours a day. Otherwise they stay in a small holding area. For Dexters it's not bad but they would be happier I'm sure out munching grass all day. 

Eventually, but for now, I have some nice stock at dirt cheap prices that I have to feed daily. Will it be worth it in the long run? I think so. I'm enjoying the 'herd' and I lease out my Dexter bull to those homesteaders that only have a couple of cows or a couple of milk cows that need to be bred. He earns his keep and is off my feed bill while leased out plus I have him to breed mine.

Anyway, I've still got a long way to go but wanted to tell you I've enjoyed following you. I have actually taken classes at the University as part of my General Agriculture minor on Intensive Grazing Management, Forages, and Soil & Water Conservation. It's definitely the way to go and eventually... I'll get there. Until now.. here's a picture of my next pasture section.










Hopefully this picture came out right. I also have it posted on one of my blogs on alternativehomesteading.com if it didn't and you're curious.


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## Slugmar

Maybe I'm not understanding the method all the way to rotational grazing, the goats are really easy to move and could be at the other end of the property and If I called there name they could come a running.

some more questions for the rotational grazing.

How long after using the the first area in the first padlock do you wait to bring them back ?

I was just worried that the goats wont eat all the feed to the desired height of 3 to 4 inches in one day.


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## trbizwiz

Agman is the pro here, but I'll take a stab. You define paddock size by what the the animals will eat in a given time period, usually a day or two. Remember the important thing is recovery time for the forage.


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## godsgapeach

In Post #791 of this thread, Agman has addressed how to figure out how much forage area cattle need per day. 

In what I've learned, ideally you want to move your herd off an area in 3 days or less, so they're not regrazing the new growth, and it allows the forage to recover. The amount of time recovery takes and how long you should wait to return to that paddock depends on all the usual factors--rainfall, type of forage, etc. In the spring you might be able to use that paddock again after 3 weeks, but in the heat of summer, maybe 6 weeks.


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## trbizwiz

Just imagine your forage as a salad bar (sorry for stealing Joel Salatin) If you keep your animals in a particular paddock for more than a few days they will eat all the chocolate pudding and bacon bits right away, then when no new pudding and bacon bits show up they'll eat the bowl that those went in and no new bits or pudding will be able to be added. Meanwhile the other salad stuff will pile up and pretty much take over the salad bar. But sadly the animals don't want that other stuff so they will eat less, and the other stuff holds less desirable nutritional value. It will have higher fiber and lower nutrition. So over time you will be ruining your salad bar.
But if you move your animals when every thing is properly eaten down, and give that specific area proper rest, God can refill the bacon bits and chocolate pudding, allowing it to compete with the ice berg lettuce.
Maybe this isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my drift.


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## trbizwiz

I like this picture of my rotational grazing system. This is just before moving the girls.


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## trbizwiz

Here is a picture of one of the bottle calves mocking the heifers. The calves get free run, but they don't eat or tear much up.









The post in this picture is a single wire cross fence. It makes up one of the four lanes I have my pasture divided to. These make moving the cows very quick and easy. Setting up corners with the poly wire and push posts is very time consuming and irritating for me. I still do it some times when I let my lawn grow too much. Ill set up my front or back yard as a temporary paddock and let them graze there. 
Cows make great environmentally friendly lawn mowers, hows that for my earth day contribution.

As a side note, "thank you God for the rain the last couple days" we really needed it, after 20 days or so with out. Everything is recovering nicely. I was keeping up with my sprinkler, but I prefer rain.


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## godsgapeach

Finally! I think I pounded in my last post today. All the wire is up and ready for jumpers. Is that the Hallelujah chorus I hear? :bouncy:

We're supposed to have storms tomorrow and possibly Sunday, but I hope to get the herd into rotation by Monday. Now if I can just get them to read this thread so they'll get the picture...


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## jhambley

Agmantoo,

Thank you so much for your willingness to share your expertise with the group. I can't wait for the weather to clear so I can get to work!!!

I thought I would share a few photos of my "old style" Herefords. Unlike modern Herefords, you can see they are much smaller framed with plenty of capacity. 

Thanks again!!!

JH


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## trbizwiz

Congrats Godsgapeach on getting your system up after over a year of planning and preparation. It is fun to have read from your start and see you come to fruition. It is rare for someone to have that resolve. Many would have given up after facing your first few obstacles. Seems you have the character to be a great Steward of your animals and their new system.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, trbizwiz. We aren't fully up and running yet--cows are still deciding what they think of changes. The jury's still out. But we're getting there. When we successfully get operational (consistently) I'll be glad to post pictures!

I had to laugh at your "resolve" comment. Here in the family, we call it just plain stubbornness and it often gets me in a mess--I end up making choices to "get it done NOW" and that can backfire on me. Hopefully in this case, it'll all turn out for the good.

Jhambley, that's a nice looking crew you've got there! They look very much like my great uncle's herd from my growing up years.


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## ufo_chris

Hello all,as you can see I'm new here. I found this thread and it took me a few days to read it all. All very interesting!
I only have a few acres pasture and a couple of cows,1 bull (all Highland) and 2 Highland x black Angus bull calves (would be the perfect size for this and the little ones are black!)
I have kinda been doing rotational grazing rotating them every day but only in 7 different paddocks.
I'm fencing in a couple more acres and want to do it all more like agmantoo describes.
If you don't mind,could I ask a couple of Questions tomorrow?
And Godsgapeach,wow that's a lot of work but it looks like you are doing great!
Ok,I'll ask one Q. now:I'm in Ohio (NE) ,does the fescue grow good here? I think we are zone 5. Does stockpiling work as well in this zone?
My grandpa in Germany was a farmer (I grew up in Germany) and my uncle and cousin still farm there but I'm pretty new to this,so I don't know my grasses and such.
Thank you for a great Thread, I've learned so much,
Chris


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## trbizwiz

Chris I read an article in stockman grass farmer a few months ago about a Canadian grass farmer. He too raised highlands I believe. Anyway he talked about a very short 4 month growing season but he only fed standing grass. He said early frost was his advantage because it locked in all the good properties of fescue and provented it from going fiberous forgot the term he used. Seems like if canadians can stockpile anyone in the US can.


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## ufo_chris

Hello and thanks ,that is good to know!
I don't really have enough land I can use for pasture to stockpile a lot but I might set aside one area and plant/seed some fescue.
When should I do that ,and do I just scatter it over the grass and let the cattle tamp it in?
I also need to know what kind of drag harrow to get. I talked to a guy that had an old one he might sell. He said his has bars with teeth ,not like the interlinked ones I've seen. Could you please tell me what to get (or not to get)?
We have a 50 hp Tractor I can use.
Can the teeth only be so long to avoid digging in and tearing up the grass?
Anybody got pics of theirs?
Oh, and when do you do that,I mean how long before they will be in that spot again should you do that?
I will have 2 pastures ,both around 2.5 acres,and I plan to make an L shaped lane so they get get to water and trees for shade (Highlands do not like heat!) 
How far apart do I have to put the fiberglass posts so I can make the 'gate' they walk under, or to take the wire down to drive over?
And the wire doesn't stretch out of shape when you do that?
Or is it cause you will always have a gate somewhere?
I just use the regular el. wire for my paddocks now,they never challenge it.
Have a 100 mile charger,it delivers quite a punch,I know all to well!
So what is the reason for using the HT?
Also I looked at TSC and they have the 180 but it is 4 times as much as the 200,does that sound right? 
And the wood end posts for the paddocks can be 400 ft(I think it said up to 1000) apart,did I read that right?
Ok,that's enough Questions for now....thanks again for the great info!
Chris


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## ufo_chris

Hello,Is anyone still on here?
should I post my Q. somewhere else.
Just asking cause I'm new here and not sure .
Thanks,
Chris


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## trbizwiz

Chris agman uses pins that he can remove from the posts freeing the wire to be pushed to the ground or raised up to allow the cows to walk under. You can space your posts according to how your terrain falls. a lot of undulation will require more posts than relatively flat ground. What you really need to know is how many pins will you need to remove to get the wire to sag or raise as you need it. That answer is tricky too. It will depend on how tight you have your wire. If you use the wheel tightener thingy's and you tweak your wire real tight you may need a few hundred feet of wire removed from the posts, if you use gripples (max 250 lbs of tightening) 200 feet will probably allow you to drive over it, and 75 feet will allow you to raise it up 5 feet or so so the cows can walk under. Be very careful when driving over it to insure it doesn't snag on the under carriage of what ever you are driving.
So in short, place your posts as needed. My ground is flat so my perimeter posts are around 33 feet on center spaced, my cross fence posts are 50 feet except where I ran out of posts and they are 100 feet. So in order for my cows to walk under my 32 inch tall cross fence wire, I take out one pin, that gives me 100 feet. With that pin out it will only sag about 1.5 inches, but it will push up around 1.5 feet or so with a piece of pipe as agman illustrated earlier in the thread. My cross fence rows are around 300 feet long and I would have to take most of the pins out to drive over, so in my setup I left a 40 foot gap at each end which I can block off with poly wire if needed, but I can drive around very easily. Now if I were on a 200 acre farm I would have gone from perimeter to perimeter with the cross fence and just pulled pins as needed to get under or over as needed.
Also note that agman clips his cotter pins on the wire, and then takes one of the legs of the pin and wraps it around the wire one more time. This way when he pulls a pin from the post it stays on the wire with out getting lost.
I would have answered you earlier but I was waiting for agman to do it. I am not the ruling authority on what he says or thinks, but I did read this entire thread and I am passing on what I remembered from it. 
Agman if I got something wrong I wont be offended at all if you correct me. We all just want to get it right.
Also this is probably a busy time for most of the folks on here, so updates and answers may not be very timely.


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## trbizwiz

By the way I just moved my girls on to some nearly mature cereal rye I planted in january. They are loving it, and since it has gone to seed I suspect they will be replanting it for a fall crop for me. It is in an area of good but not great clover coverage, so I am anticipating great gains over the next 12 days or so that they are on it. I am estimating 12 paddocks based on size and what they have been eating over the last two weeks. If they go crazy they may get rotated through this area faster, but they wont be on any single area for more than 24 hours.
I suspect since the seed heads are just forming the "volunteer" rye wont have great coverage this fall, but I wanted to graze it before it all goes to lignin and is worthless for grazing.


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## godsgapeach

Chris, trbizwiz was right about things being busy. I've been working so hard I've hardly had a chance to read any posts, much less type anything new.

I've got about 14 cows who are actively cooperating with the program; some (most)who are observing the process; and 4 who haven't even gotten on the right side of the wire to start the program yet--those 4 will be on the trailer to the sale barn when they get where we need them to be.

Agman will be proud to know that the biggest gal on the property got on the trailer tonight for a ride to the sale barn in the morning. I told Daddy it'll be a wonder if the trailer's not flipped over when he goes out. She's huge and ornery--her back was level with my nose and I'm 5'4".

Progress is slow but it's still progress!


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## ufo_chris

Thanks you guys! I just wasn't sure if everybody had abandoned this thread just when I found it .
It took me a few days to read the whole thing and then of course I had to ask some Q. Can you guys tell me what king of Harrow to look for please. And when to use it.
Also, like agamn I'm all for reusing stuff, and I have a bunch of the fiberglass plain skinny and step inn posts but I guess to be able to let them go under it I have to get the bigger ones with the pvc for the gates and the pins. 
Why should this be HT?(I have a bunch of regular wire I could reuse) And I like the idea of a more workable HT,but is it really 4 times as much? The stuff I saw was aluminum clad or something like that.
I'm putting up a new pasture in just a few weeks and so please if you can just bear with me for most likely a few more Q. that would be great.
Thank you so much ,
Chris


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## trbizwiz

I have w friend that uses a couple of pallets with seed sacks filled with rocks for a harrow. I have heard of folks using an old section of chain link fence. But if you can get a deal on craigslist I would guess a purpose built drag harrow like the Ag stores sell will be the easiest and most effective. I have a 4 footer, but for my needs 8 feet would be better. 
When you say put up pasture I assume you mean fence. This would not be an ideal time to plant seed. 

Back to the harrow I drag mine after I have grazed a few paddocks but before significant regrowth. My goal is to spread litter but not disturb the regrowth. I usually clean up mow at the same time. That gets rid of what ever the cows won't eat. I assume as my pasture proves and my cows get trained there will be less and less clean up. 
Good luck


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris
I use a worn drag harrow of the old design with the cross bars and spike teeth. The teeth are very worn and I pull the drag with the angle setting to where the teeth do not bite into the soil. The cross bars will drag the manure and smear it thinly. 
I do not like doing the same tasks repeatedly because of poor workmanship or inferior materials. Yes the initial costs are higher but their is no repeated charges for replacement components. There is a lot of load on the fiberglass posts when you have the PVC pipe stradling it. It takes a good post to perform. The same thing with the wire. High tensile has a breaking strength above 1100 PSI. It also has grade 3 galvanizing and is 12 1/2 gauge. Most folks do not realize that conductivity of the wire is a matter of diameter as well as material. You will always want a good conductor for the energizer to work at its peak. When building the fence build good corners and there is no need to have the interior partition wires banjo string tight. You will be lifting the partition wires at least 7 ft to get the cattle to come under the raised wire. With some practice and a few good tools you should be able to work the wire. Having the right pliers to cut the HT is a must.


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## trbizwiz

I second that on the plier thing. Don't even try your standard sire cutters. I bought some galagers (sp?). The are built like mini bolt cutters they work great.


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## RBC81

I now have a lane up and operating. Getting the correct amount of forage each day has been very challenging. My pastures are pretty inconsistant so that is making it more difficult. On the upside the cows seem to be learning pretty quickly that when they are allowed into a paddock that they should start eating and they seem to be pretty well cleaning the pasture. I am posting a link to a document that I found on how to size a paddock for rotational grazing. After reading it it seems to me that it all still comes down to knowing your pasture and how much nutritional value is available. I guess that how much to allow each day is going to be a learning experience, but at least I am set-up to start learning now. The cows all seem to be taking to the fence pretty well. I had one cow the first 2 days that went thru, but I think she was after her calf. Anyway thanks to everyone on this thread for sharing (especially Agmantoo), because I think it has put me way ahead on having a system that is quick to implement as well as a low time commitment each day. Since this is a secondary source of income that is very important.

http://www.forages.psu.edu/agfacts/agfact43.pdf

I would be interested in any comments on the above link.


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## ufo_chris

Hi and thanks and sorry,yes I did mean fence,HT, this is the 3rd HT fence we've put up so I'm used to that stuff (that doesn't mean I like working with it!)
You were talking about using the 180 cause it's easier to work with,did you see my q. where I saw it at TSC for 4x the cost of regular HT. Is this right?
I will put up the corners in wood on the inside paddocks and get some of those bigger FG posts (are they ever available locally or do you always have to have them shipped?) what was the size again please.
The Harrow,Agman that sounds like the one someone told me they had but I don't know if it's adjustable like yours, I'll have to check. 
Would an old spring harrow work?
DH does not like the idea of an old boxsping or chainlink,oh well ,I'm sure I'll find something on craigslist if I can't buy the other one.
Would one of those drag harrows that people use for horse arenas work (kinda like chainlink with spikes)?
Thanks so much you guys,you are a great help!
Chris


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## Farm 36

If you buy good wire like Gallagher high tensil you can build the whole fense with no pliers. I built the whole primater and inside with no pliers just twist the wire off and also no sleeves. In order to do this you ned good wire like gallagher not farm store stuff there you need pliers or really strong fingers


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris
Both the bar type and the chain type should work OK. I have both but the bar one I have is wider and I prefer it. You do not have to adjust the bar type once you get it set.


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## agmantoo

RBC81
To determine if that information on establishing the paddocks works plug my info into it and tell me how many acres I need. I have a gps report of the total acres available from a professional firm that is very accurate. I have very conservatively 162 AU at this time and I used no hay for the entire last 12 months.


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## agmantoo

Farm 36
I too can work the HT wire by hand. I have yet to find a woman that can however. When I splice using the compression sleeves I bend each protruding end 90 degrees to add additional security to the crimp and to hold the sleeves on the wires until I get the crimp completed. Without the pliers I cannto do that. The pliers should enable anyone to use the cheaper higher tensile wire and save money also. The pliers are also neat to hold the wire when the charger is on. That is another thing I cannot do with my bare hands. At $42 they are a best buy IMO and I would not want to be without a pair.


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## trbizwiz

I work my ht wire with my hands as well. I use a cutter to cut the wire off the roll, but I just twist the wire off when I am tyeing an end. I don't use sleeves or crimps either I just use the wrap technique. Though I have found that wire that has been out side for a while can be hard to tie off (it tends to break, well the weather was cool so that may have effected it too).


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## ufo_chris

Sorry ,another Question or two: I don't think you use the wire strainers and tension springs ,what do you use and how many?
The longest my lanes will be is around 300' ,maybe 400'.
Just one wood post on the ends ,right.
So the 180 Ht is more expensive then? Are there any other advantages besides it being easier to work with?
Thanks,Chris


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## agmantoo

I do use the wire strainers/tensioners (place them in the center of the pull and you will not need as many) but the springs are useless and a waste of money. The wire itself and the posts will act as a spring plus on the interior partitions there is no reason that I have found to have the wires real tight.
I also am unaware of any advantage other than the 180,000 PSI working easier.


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## godsgapeach

ufo_chris said:


> Also I looked at TSC and they have the 180 but it is 4 times as much as the 200,does that sound right?
> Chris


Chris, I have no idea what TSC is charging for the 180 psi, but TSC hasn't been my source of choice (for much of anything). 

Here is a link for Kencove's wire. About halfway down is the 180--the same price as the 200. http://www.kencove.com/fence/Wire_products.php

And here is the powerflex link http://www.powerflexfence.com/products-page/hi-tensile-wire-and-dispensers/12-5-gauge-hi-tensile-wire/wsa2/ There are 3 other choices for their 12.5/180 wire, but this is the same as what I used.

I have no idea which will be a better shipping deal, but I've ordered from both and had good results.

Hope this helps.


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## trbizwiz

I bought my HT wire from Powerflex. Their website differentiates between their different price points by the quality of galvanization. It seems the more you pay the better galvanized and so the longer lasting the wire will be. For the scale of my project the difference was less than $100 so I went with what they said was the best. running wire isn't my favorite thing to do, I would prefer to buy what will last the longest, and a $2000 project $100 upgrade seemed reasonable.
On the end posts, powerflex's web site has some good information on how to do end posts. they have an H brace and a Y brace. I have done both and I think I prefer the Y brace. It is quicker, requires fewer holes, less materials, and seems to actually work better. If you aren't stringing your wire tight you may be fine with 1 end post. Agman uses I beam pounded into the ground, that seems to work good.


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## trbizwiz

Hey agman, I have my pair of heifers on a mix of brome, clover, and cereal rye right now. The rye is starting to go to seed. The seed heads aren't mature, and the cows seem to be eating it pretty well, but they aren't cleaning up the paddock. My gut feeling is that my paddock is too large, since they seem to be eating the rye, but it could be that they just dont prefer the rye because it is too mature. What do you think. I know with out you seeing the situation you dont have all the information. But I am trying to decide if I should just mow the rye down and allow the brome and clover to grow up. I have plenty of stockpiled clover and fescue to graze for the next month or so. If I keep them on the rye the clover may flower out and get stemy. This is my first full year of grazing, and I am a little nervous about proper management. I want the cows to eat the best grass now for the best gains. I probably should have grazed the rye 2 weeks ago when it was shorter, but it was growing very slowly and then shot up. I think next time I will just plant 2 paths of rye through all of the paddocks, that way there will be less to eat, and you can graze it at all stages of maturity. I also expected it to germinate and mature much earlier before the clover and fescue, but it all came on at once.


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## Allen W

Don't mean to but in ahead of Agman but your rye is too mature for the cattle to graze if they have other choices. Once it starts sending up seed heads it toughens up fast, it is best utilized short and in a more vegetative state.If it's thin it will just go to seed and reseed itself, if it's thick it could cause eye problems for your cattle as it finishes maturing.


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## RBC81

Agman,

When I plugged in your 162AU into the formula I got anywhere from abt. 380 acres in some months down to 65 acres other months. There were some months where you could not graze cattle on fescue. It did not have a number for fescue and clover, just straight fescue. I assume that is part of the problem, as well as I think it was based on a northern climate. 

I am having trouble identifying allot of the plants in my pasture does anyone know of a good pictorial reference.


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## agmantoo

RBC81
Thanks for the effort and the feedback.
I had a discussion with an extension agent and he was not happy with me. I do not believe that a software program can project the size of the paddock or the exact acres. There are too many variables IMO.

The following numbers are not absolutes as I do not measure each paddock each day. I can comfortably say that at this time of year if I receive timely rains I can feed the entire herd on 21 acres for a month and build a lot of surplus forage in the other paddocks. During the 90 days of Winter that I feed stockpiled fescue I need 30 acres per month. I also expect to feed stockpiled forage in July and August most years. Essentially I am growing feed 7+ months per year. I could feed a lot more animals in the Spring as I have an imbalance of feed to cattle. I do not know how to level this imbalance as I do not want to buy feeder calves as I want the herd to remain closed. To answer how many acres I am using or will be using to feed the herd the entire year the amount is 161 acres, 25 of these acres are being reestablished and are not being rotationally grazed . For the county that I live in the extension dept states that for those that feed hay during the Winter it takes 1 1/2 acres of pasture to feed a cow and her calf during the pasture grazing months.


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## cattleman

RBC81

I do not know if these plants are native to your area but you might try this web page for plant ID. www.noble.org/webapps/plantimagegallery/


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## ufo_chris

Hello,Thanks for the info and links. I just looked at the Kencove one and it looks like they are about 2 hrs from here,maybe we'll have to go on a road trip!
TSC,is the only place around here that has fencing supplies so that is usually where I go. I didn't realize there are so many kinds of HT last time around. I guess I always thought it's the same so why order it and pay shipping.
I'm having my posts for the new fence pounded in by someone ,so I'll have them do the paddock wooden end posts too. They have other fencing supplies and DH used to work with his DW so he might sell me some good HT wire I can use. I should only need 1 roll. I'm more than willing to pay a bit extra to get better quality but when I seen that wire at TSC was 4 times as much as the regular ,that was a little too much!
That $99 fence tester/volt meter thing ,I'm really interested in that . Does it help direct you towards the fault? 
Thanks so much for all your help!


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## agmantoo

The Stafix fence compass will not only read the voltage but it will send you in the direction of the short


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## ufo_chris

WOW Thanks,that is great!On my list! I have some steel t posts here and there when I divided my pasture and they are always giving me trouble. Sometimes when it's not snapping I have to check each and every wire and connection.
Of course I will probably rip those out and have some wood ones pounded in there as well. Should only need a few. 
Do you guys use the tubes with the fins for your perimeter HT?
Those seem to break on me(I am aware that the staple can't be too tight) or collect water inside and spark a little when it's rainy I'm thinking because then the outside is wet and then you have your staple.


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## agmantoo

I use the porcelein wherever possible and a few of the pin lock insulators. No tubes as they give me trouble.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks agmantoo. I used the pinlock on the last section I made and am happy so far.
I was just getting together a list of what I'll need and went back to your post where you had pics of the pliers,stafix tool,driver and such.
When I clicked on the link for the 5' drilled posts there weren't any of that size.
What diameter should they be if I look elsewhere?
Also the driver for fiberglass posts came up a regular t post driver ,not like in your pic. Would they work? I have 2 of these.
Which tensioner do you prefer?


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## agmantoo

put this in google and it will take you to a link at Kencove that has a 5' fiberglas psot that is too expensive.... Item # F78-5D

I suggest that you go to Powerflex and get their posts. You will have to drill the hole. Godsgapeach said the drilling was easy.
http://www.powerflexfence.com/products-page/powerflex-posts/powerflex-post/

Your tee post driver will work. Mine is homemade.


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## ufo_chris

Hey thanks agman for checking that out!So from powerflex would it be the 1 1/8 x 54' ,price $3.89 ?
The kencove ones were $6.67 for 7/8, 5 ' drilled. That is a lot!
Didn't you say something about composite ones one time?
I'll have to figure out how many I'll need to see what do do. Might still be cheaper to drive a couple of hrs to Kencove instead of having them shipped from the other place.


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## godsgapeach

Chris you might want to check powerflex's specials page. They sometimes offer a deal on various items that will help with shipping, but it'll depend on the quantity you need.

We got a pallet of the composite posts from them and I like them just fine. They don't bend/break like the old metal T posts we've had. They flex as the site advertises.

As Agman suggested before I started, I marked each post to the depth I wanted to sink it (in our case 18 inches) and then I marked it another 34 inches for the point where I needed to drill the hole. I could pound it in with a regular Tpost driver and drill the hole in just a matter of minutes. BUT if the ground is rocky or you're in drought, it will be hard work for sure--I flattened several tips in the process.

The tensioners I used are the stainless ones from Kencove (they call them "tighteners") with a spring--also Agman's suggestion.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks Godgapeach, for all the info.
I tried to find the composite ones on the poweflex site but can't . What are they under?
How is your fencing coming along? Are you all done?
Did the rest of the cattle finally get it?
One of my calves walks under the fence no problem (to get into another paddock by himself) but then he forgets how to get back out!


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## godsgapeach

Here's the link to the PF posts http://www.powerflexfence.com/products-page/powerflex-posts/powerflex-post/ 

They're under Powerflex posts instead of just posts. I can't find their description of them though. But if you request a catalog, they give a full explanation of them in there.

My fence is done thankfully--at least in the first section. We started with the first 45 or so acres. Once this is fully operational and we've recouped some funds, we'll move down the line.

At this point, about 1/2 of the herd is cooperating. The rest are still resisting, but they're about to have no choice but to get with the program. They've been eating in the lot where the shade is, but they've about tapped all their resources there. And there are still 3 totally uncooperative cows and their calves that won't come into the lot at all--they're still in the non-rotational part of the pasture. So as soon as we can get them in, they'll be on a trailer to the sale barn.


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## godsgapeach

Agman, I forgot to mention... The elephant we sold last week was 1315 pounds! By far the biggest on the place.

And of the 3 bull calves that went with her, the black one brought 5-7 cents more per pound than the other 2--one tan and one reddish.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks godgapeach,I'm sorry I must have misunderstood. I thought the powerflex ones were fiberglass and that the composite ones were something completely different .
DH says we can't trust our vehicles to make a 2 hr one way trip so I'll have to see what to do. I ordered the catalogs from both powerflex and kencove so I'll get more insight on their shipping charges.
Hey ,sounds like you've worked enough for a while anyways and deserve a break for a while!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach,

Glad to hear you got rid of the large frame cow and thanks for confirming that black is where its at. Since we are in this for profit, realizing where the gain is to be had is key. Could we be making a mistake teaching others to compete? Just joking :=) 

I have been busy with some of my own farm projects and therefore have not asked many questions of yourself lately. Having a large portion of your fencing completed is very much of an accomplishment. Are you still having training issues with a few of the cattle and the PVC gate? The gate pipe needs to be tall (7 ft plus) until the herd gets accustomed to going under the wire. I doubt that you can reach that high. Make a gate pipe around 8 ft long and place it over the post. Get a forked limb around 4 ft long. Using the limb place the wire in the limb fork and with both hands raise the wire and place the wire in the V in the PVC gate. This will avoid your getting on tiptoes and will get the wire high enough not to intimidate the animals.


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## godsgapeach

I've got the pipe cut somewhere around 7'2" and the cows are fine with it--at least the ones who will travel under it are. I initially had it cut at 7'6" but THAT I sure couldn't reach. Once they get used to it I'll probably knock it down another 4 inches maybe so that I can comfortably maneuver it. But as it is, I'm able to reach flatfooted using my insulated pliers if I need an extra boost when the wire is hot.

Every day more of the herd get with the program. I think we're down to 12 or so holdouts right now. And today I ran some braid to block them from a large portion of the lot that those have been grazing. We'll see if they're convinced to try the new system when they're a bit hungrier.

No rest for the weary either. Now that the fence is up, the grass has totally gotten out of hand--waist high. So now I'm trying to bushhog it to the highest possible level and figure out the new pattern with the tractor since I can't cut across the old terraces the same way I did before the fence went up. I also forgot your hint to use the pigtails to hold the HT wire down the first time I crossed the fence (batwings up and PTO off thankfully). Won't be forgetting that again!

Any projects or new gadgets you've got to share? I'm still thinking about the pigtail caddy...

Of course, I've got more questions when you've got time. 
1) Do you know anything about "Little Barley"? We've got a good bit of it in the pasture--discovering new things growing all the time. The vetch is EVERYWHERE and there's a lot of clover too. We do have some buttercups which I think are toxic, but they're a fairly new addition. A pasture down the road is SOLID yellow with them.

2) The lot side of one of the paddocks is still barbwire fence. Will it be a problem for me to tie the braid on to the barbwire or do I need to just put a pigtail at the end and tie on to it? (It would be running from HT to barbwire.)

3) How long does the braid usually last since it's out in the weather?

Thanks for all the help as always!


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## agmantoo

"1) Do you know anything about "Little Barley"? We've got a good bit of it in the pasture--discovering new things growing all the time. The vetch is EVERYWHERE and there's a lot of clover too. We do have some buttercups which I think are toxic, but they're a fairly new addition. A pasture down the road is SOLID yellow with them."

I think I know what you are referencing as "Little Barley" and if I am correct cattle will eat it. If cattle eat it to me it is not a weed and I let it go to see what its potential may be.

Buttercup is a poisonous plant.


"2) The lot side of one of the paddocks is still barbwire fence. Will it be a problem for me to tie the braid on to the barbwire or do I need to just put a pigtail at the end and tie on to it? (It would be running from HT to barbwire.)"

I do not like to terminate the polywire by tying off to a pigtail post. The barbwire is not insulted is it? If not, get a porcelain insulator and wrap a heavy wire around the insulator and bend a hook on the loose end of the wire. Place this rig onto the barbwire and feed the loose end of the polywire through the eye of the insulator. Now you should have a reliable insulated hook to affix the polywire to the barbwire.

"3) How long does the braid usually last since it's out in the weather?"

I have never bought the braided polywire. I have the older style twisted white polywire and it lasts for years. Every two to three months I may cut off 16 inches or so of the end where I am constantly wrapping and tying it. I intent to buy the braided type and try it. Powerflex does not have IMO a user friendly ordering system or I would already have a trial roll.


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## godsgapeach

I knew you'd have a solution to the barbwire issue. Thanks!

You're right about the PF ordering system. They should have an online option. But when I have ordered by phone, I've gotten good service.


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## ufo_chris

I'm getting ready to order my powerflex posts but wanted to make sure ,the 1 1/8" ones are the ones to get right?


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## godsgapeach

Mine are the 1 1/4 ones Chris, but I think it's just personal preference.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks Godsgapeach!
Ok, here's a problem I have run into. I only have the equivalent of say 4 cows. I only need to move the polyrope 15 or 20 feet at a time so how do the pvc gates work for that short of a span?
I was going to put the powerflex posts 50 ft apart,so if I make the gate I'm sure the opening they could get under would be 50 ft or more. 
I really would like to not have to buy too many posts so do I have any other options?
Would a couple of the pigtails keep the wire down where it needs to be down?


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## godsgapeach

YAY! Progress! All of the cows that had been in the lot are now cooperating. And--for the 3rd time I've gotten in one of the cows that hadn't been in at all. She might not be in when I go out today and if she's not, she and her calf will be on a trailer next sale day.

I took some pics so you can see what we've got.

Heads down--all you can hear is munching.









In this one the line for the day before's grazing is on the bottom right. You'd laugh if you saw my crooked pigtail lines. I can't see the post I'm headed for until I top the rise, so it's not as clear as Agman's where the ungrazed part is.









Here is a shot from the lane. You can see the ungrazed part a little better, and you can see where I'd put the polywire the day before--no problem needing them backfenced that day.









And one last one from the hilltop in the next paddock over. There's a cow standing in the grazed area eating from the ungrazed, and one calf just roaming around, but everybody else is eating away--TOGETHER. The paddock I'm standing in hasn't been bushhogged so you can see the waist high grass.


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## wstevenl

ufo_chris said:


> Thanks Godsgapeach!
> Ok, here's a problem I have run into. I only have the equivalent of say 4 cows. I only need to move the polyrope 15 or 20 feet at a time so how do the pvc gates work for that short of a span?
> I was going to put the powerflex posts 50 ft apart,so if I make the gate I'm sure the opening they could get under would be 50 ft or more.
> I really would like to not have to buy too many posts so do I have any other options?
> Would a couple of the pigtails keep the wire down where it needs to be down?


Ufo_Chris,

I have my doubts that you could do exactly what Agmantoo and Gods' are doing with only 4 or so cows. We only have about 9 (mostly smaller cows) and 22 animals total and there is no way we could do it. Our posts are 30 foot apart so if we raised the line at a post we'd have a pretty wide gate... considering that we are only using paddocks at this time that are 30' wide by the 200' width of the strip of pasture. I think your options are to either bring water to the cows and leave them in the paddock all the time... You can use a tank on some kind of trailer, water hoses?, or we ran water underground that will supply both sides of our main center wire and we graze down one side of our water supply and back. We have an underground quick connect point every 100'. 

OR, you can use your same polywire and pigtail posts to make lanes to your water source. If you whole pasture is 800 or 1000 foot long you just need one of your reels to have that much wire on it and you can extend your lane to meet each new paddock. Your lane would be between the temp. wire and your permanent fence. Where your reel stops, at the new paddock, you may need more than a single pig tail. I've hung an O'Brien reel on 2-3 Gallagher posts before and it did okay. 

Sure hope that wasn't too confusing.


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## agmantoo

Ufo_Chris,

I have been busy and I apologize for not replying earlier. Actually until wstevenl's response reminded me it had slipped my mind. Here is how to accomplish what you want to do. Run the polywire to partition off the amount of forage you want the animals to have. Then where the polywire meets the permanent lane wire partition insert a pigtail post. Loop the polywire to where it will affix to the pigtail you just set and turn a full 90 degrees and run the polywire down the permanent partition lane fence as far as you need to go and pull the pins holding the permanent partition lane wire and raise as much or the permanent lane wire as necessary to create the slack need to make the lifted wire/pcv gate gap. If this is unclear repost and I will try to PROMPTLY reply.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
In this endeavor I believe the trip is not nearly as rewarding as the arrival. Would you agree? Things look great and under control, very impressive. Hopefully the family sees the merit in the undertaking and that the rotational grazing will expand to cover the entire farm. Each day should increase the benefits and the warm sensation from the efforts more obvious. Time and exposure will hone your skills and elevate your appreciation of what you have done. I have somewhat intentionally hung back and let others share information and assist folks in order to have more people participate. Please continue to share your experiences and help those interested in accomplishing what you were successful. Your determination and persistence are commendable.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agman. Seeing how quickly the cows have adjusted has been great. When I move them, they'll follow me and wait while I put up the new polywire. I don't even have to call them. But when I actually let the previous polywire down, I whistle anyway, even though they readily move into the new partition, just to help them keep the habit. I'm not as quick as you are, so it takes me longer than 30 minutes to set up the move, but with practice, I'll get better.



One thing they haven't gotten used to though is not going as a mob to the water. Some will hang back, but quite a few of them still herd it to the trough--even when it was only 50 or so feet away.

I've had some time to enjoy this progress, but I've got to get back to bushhogging, and then the next step is water lines. Not looking forward to that much, but it'll make things easier. 

Daddy's definitely been impressed with the operation of everything. And after he sees some return on this investment, he'll have no problem converting the whole property. We can definitely add some more to the herd with plenty of grazing I think, but I'd like to get through a summer and a winter as we are and see how we stand.

We surely have you to thank for everything. Seeing your operation and being able to ask for you advice has made all the difference! Thanks again for everything.


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## ufo_chris

Agmantoo,Thanks I thought it could be done ,there was someone else on this thread with just a few animals,but this q. never got asked.
I'm trying to picture what you are saying,but I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly.
I guess the problem picturing is the pf posts being 50 ft apart, so the opening would probably be 25 ft on each side (I would think),so if I put a pigtail where the front polywire meets the permanent partition fence and run it back towards the back polywire I'm thinking I'd have to go past the pf post and if I only want like 20' open but my pf post is 45' away ...so see where I'm going or did I miss something?
I'm willing to give them more room ,say 50 feet may work ,and just move my front wire 20 ft every day(well and the back one too).
Am I going in the right direction or did I completely misunderstand?
Thanks so much for trying to explain this .


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## ramiller5675

ufo chris, 

Unless I am mistaken, your polywire fence will be built more as an "L" instead of a straight line. It will run in a straight line making your 20' opening to where your high tensile wire would be if you hadn't lifted it, then it will turn and run to replace the lifted wire in the lane.


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris

ramiller5675's reply is right on and much clearer than mine. Make certain we continue to discuss the issue until we all have the same conclusion.


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## ufo_chris

Ok,so basically I am making a 'new' fenceline under the lifted part.
That is originally what I thought I'd have to do but thought maybe I'm missing something where it would be easier.
This way I have to put a pigtail at the turn and where I want it to stop ,on both lines of polywire. 
Well I guess when the ground freezes or gets dry I'll leave more of an opening.
PLMK if I did not understand correctly and thanks for all your help!


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## Nezill

Thanks Agmantoo this has been so interesting we started our sheep this spring. Things are going great. See improvement all ready.


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## PACrofter

Nezill said:


> Thanks Agmantoo this has been so interesting we started our sheep this spring. Things are going great. See improvement all ready.


Nezill, are you using electronet for your sheep? I can't imagine a single hotwire / polytape would hold sheep in, like it does for cattle. Do you have any pictures of your operation to share? Curious minds want to know... 

I hope others on this thread don't think this is a hijacking - if the OP and agmantoo would prefer, we could take this off-line.


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## Nezill

PACrofer, yes we are using net fence at this time. This field is a hayfield that has no fence. Until we get a better handle of the way we want things this is what we use. No I don't have pic. The pc that I use for pic is down. We are new to this type of grazing a lot of people feel sheep need more tender grass we are new to sheep 3 years, have had goats and few cattle, hogs. The sheep really have improved in the 2 months on the field. The grass that is growing back already seems thicker, but we have had lots of rain. We have drawn some attention in the area.


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## godsgapeach

Nezill, I've definitely noticed an improvement in the cows' body condition, too--after only about a month of rotating. I think, in my case anyway, that it's making a significant difference that they're not traveling up to 2 miles a day to pick out their favorite forages and then back to the creek for water. We've gotten a few odd looks from other farmers in the area, but they're definitely taking notice. 

And PACrofter, I don't mind if others don't.


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## trbizwiz

I too have noticed a remarkable improvement in body condition in mine. Now I am sure in mine being heifers and just passing their first birthday, combined with plentiful forage helps. But I tend to agree that stopping all the running around in the pasture that they were doing before they where positioned and rotated in paddocks every day must have a large impact in their improved body condition.


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## Nezill

Our sheep still have lambs on them and they have picked up weight and the lambs are really growing well. Every one says the sheep won't eat the tall grass but ours are, all seed heads just leave the long stem of the fescue. It just forces them to eat it all. They just run when we open the gate. It will be so nice to sell an animal that didn't have a ton of grain in it. I do think as well a with cattle the breed you choose makes the difference we have Dorper/Katahadin. cross. You can almost see the grass regrow. I have really enjoyed this thread. Have learned so much. Agmantoo and all, I complement you for being so nice and patient.


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## ArmyDoc

Well, with any luck we may finally be getting some land. I called the realtor about making an offer today. The land is forrested though. Can anyone point me to a forum / thread on how to convert forrest to pasture?


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## godsgapeach

Great, ArmyDoc! I bet Agman can advise there too--he has knowledge in that area I think. I'll be praying all goes well.


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## anvoj

ArmyDoc-
I had started a thread about that a few months back and Agman pulled it into this one. I'm in the process of doing the same thing, but haven't posted lately as there hasn't been much to report. We've got access to all the free lime we can use (from the cement plant), but it's been too wet out there to do anything. Been doing a little ditching.

I believe it was Agman who recommended I get "Grass, yearbook of agriculture 1947" (something like that-I'm not looking at it right now), and I will recommend it to you. I think it was something like $3 on Amazon for 800-1000 pages of good information.

The main thing I learned in my reading is that the difference between forest soils and pasture soils have to do with how the organic material accumulates. A forest gains material from falling leaves, which creates a rather shallow layer which can lose a lot of nutrients through leaching because the deeper root systems (which could catch and recycle those nutrients) are few and far between. Prairie soils are built by the decaying root systems of the grasses on them. They retain/recycle more nutrients and hold more moisture in the soil on account of the greater amount of organic material. I believe forest soils tend to be more acid also.

My process is going like this:
First I put animals on everything to see what I had. (part of my land was stumpage and kind of a mess, and it was hard to tell where the wet spots are). Then I decided what should stay forest and what should be pasture. Everything will stay fenced, so I can put them in the woods when necessary. Then I'm doing a little ditching/leveling in the pasture areas. Next I will lime, to encourage clover and more palatable forage. Then seed. Some places I can work the seed in to the soil, other places I will over seed and brush hog over it and hope that will work. Hopefully once the pasture is established all I'll have to do is basic maintenance.

I'll try to get some pics to show you where I am at this point.
Good luck with your purchase.


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## agmantoo

I came by this article that I think has a lot of merit and I wanted to share it with those thinking about getting into cattle. As I have stated previously, I do not intend to be the midwife to a cow and this information may help all of us minimize that from happening.


MANAGE FEMALES TO ENSURE SAFE AND EASY CALF DELIVERY

Heather Smith Thomas

There are many things that influence calving ease and length of labor in cows and heifers, and some of these factors can be managed&#8212;to help ensure safe and easy delivery of calves. The main cause for dystocia (difficult birth) is a big calf and small pelvic area in the dam, especially in first calf heifers that have not yet attained mature size. Thus it is important to make sure heifers are genetically selected for early maturing, ease of calving and are well grown by calving time&#8212;and bred to bulls that typically sire small calves. Some of the many factors that influence birth weight and calving ease include sex of the calf, age of dam, breed and birthweight of both the sire and dam, gestation length, environment and nutrition of the dam.

First calvers generally give birth to smaller calves than do mature cows. A general rule of thumb is that the larger the dam, the bigger her calf. But if bred to a bull that sires large calves, a heifer may have trouble calving, especially if it's a bull calf. Male calves tend to be larger than female calves, partly because they have a huskier build, and also because they tend to be carried longer. A cow that calves a few days before her expected due date often has a heifer calf, whereas a cow that goes overdue often has a bull calf. Since the fetus is growing fastest in the final stages of gestation, those several extra days of growth create a larger calf. One research study showed that for each extra day of gestation, there's about a pound of increase in size of the calf.

Bull calves also cause more calving problems than heifer calves, not just because they are larger, but also because of hormonal influences. Studies in Montana in 1993 showed that cows carrying bull calves have higher testosterone (male hormone) levels than cows carrying female calves. Cows that experience dystocia also have different estrogen and progesterone levels than cows having easy labor. These hormones may influence the degree of relaxation and expansion of the birth canal, as well as helping or hindering the force of labor contractions.

Birth weight and size of the calf is affected by genetics of both the sire and the dam. This is often related to gestation length, since some breeds and family lines within breeds have longer or shorter gestation. Many calving problems can be eliminated or minimized if you select your breeding stock (females and bulls) that were themselves small to medium size at birth. Even if you breed a heifer to an easy-calving bull that sires low birthweight calves, her calf may still be too large for easy delivery if it inherits its term size from her (if she herself was large at birth).

Birthweight tends to be less in hot seasons and more in cold weather. When it's cold, the blood circulation of the dam is concentrated more internally, to conserve heat and keep vital internal organs warm, and thus brings more nutrients to the fetus and it grows faster. By contrast, in warm weather the circulatory system is sending more blood to the outer surface of the body for cooling, with less concentration of blood around the internal organs. The fetus grows a little slower.

Feeding high levels of protein during the last 90 days of gestation can increase the size of calves at birth. Pregnant cows need adequate energy and protein for proper growth and health of the fetus and to keep up their own body condition (cows too thin may have poor uterine contractions during labor and need assistance, and may also be slow to breed after calving) but overfeeding protein may result in big calves and more calving problems. Overfeeding energy (making cows too fat) may create too much fat in the pelvic area, and lead to difficult calving.

When cattle were wild, before domestication, they gave birth quickly and easily, like bison or elk. Calves were small and easily born. Any calves that had trouble coming into the world did not survive to have offspring, and any cow with serious problems died, and did not produce any offspring to perpetuate a problematic trait. Thus mother nature ruthlessly culled the herds and selected for ease of calving. With domestication, however, we have created animals that are bigger, meatier, and faster growing. In selecting for improved beef traits, we have also inadvertently selected for animals that are larger at birth. Hence the domestic beef cow may have more calving problems than her wild ancestors did.

After experiencing some horrible calving wrecks with large calves (especially during the 1970's and 1980's when stockmen in America were experimenting with larger continental breeds and crossing them with smaller British breeds) many cattle raisers realized they also needed to select for smaller birthweights and calving ease. Breeds with large muscle mass also have more calving problems, just because of the extra bulk. Many of those calves have to be pulled or delivered by C-section.

In almost all breeds there are some bulls that sire larger than average calves, or calves with wide hips and shoulders that don't pass through the birth canal easily, creating a higher than usual incidence of calving problems. Some cows always have big calves, and hard births, no matter what bull you breed them to, just because their calves tend to inherit these traits from the dam.

Some breeders claim that birthweight alone does not make for difficult (or easy) calving&#8212;that the shape of the calf is just as important. To some degree this is true, since a calf with a very wide head, shoulders and hips (or double muscling) will be slower coming through the birth canal than a streamlined calf. A big streamlined calf may be born just as easily as a smaller, lighter-weight blocky calf. But whenever you have large, long-legged calves, there is more risk for calving problems even if the calf is streamlined. A calf with long legs has more chance for malpresentation&#8212;if those legs don't get aimed properly when they straighten out in early labor to head for the birth canal. Ranchers with big, long-limbed calves have often commented on having more incidence of legs turned back, heads turned back, etc. There's just not as much room in the uterus for the calf to properly position himself at the beginning of labor. It may take longer to get started through the birth canal.

In some breeds and family lines, calves are either large or small mainly because of gestation length. The calves that are smaller than average generally are born a few days sooner than average and those that are larger are often carried longer. If you select for cattle with short gestation lengths, you usually have calves that are smaller at birth. This is one way that breeders in some of the hard calving have improved calving ease of their cattle&#8212;by selecting for shorter gestation length.

The selection process, trying to ensure reasonable calf size and shape, is ongoing.

Bull buyers (and anyone buying female replacements) need to pay attention to EPD's for calving ease. Some seedstock producers are now recognizing the value and need for guaranteeing ease of calving again. Stockmen need to work closely with their seedstock producers to make sure the bulls they select are compatible with their cow herd for ease of calving.

There are some advantages to using minor breeds that have not been &#8220;improved&#8221; for increased beef production. If you can't be there at calving time, you may want to select cattle that calve swiftly and easily. A small live calf at birth is always worth more than a dead big one!


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## Nezill

Not sure if I should post this here or not but I don't get response from sheep people.We are new to MIG with our sheep. My question is the hay field we have the sheep in is very tall at this point. It is clover, alfalfa, orchard grass and fescue. As the sheep eat they are trampling a lot but leave only the long stems of the tough fescue standing. Should we clip that up high after they are moved or not? I am sure if we had cattle it would be tramped better, We are sill get a lot of litter on the ground.


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## agmantoo

Nezill
For me I would clip the fescue just above any remaining leaves or about 4 inches whichever fits. I did that just today on what I had the cattle grazing for the last week. I have tried both leaving and clipping and I get better regrowth on the clipped along with less weeds. I want no thatch when the fescue starts regrowing.


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## ArmyDoc

Well, they accepted our offer, so it looks like we may finally get a chance to try this ourselves! Since it's a bit earlier in the process of getting to MIG grazing, I posted a thread here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=356603

If any of you have suggestions or thoughts on establishing a farm, I'd sure appreciate hearing them.

By the way, anyone know how to up-load pics?


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## Ebenezer

> For me I would clip the fescue just above any remaining leaves or about 4 inches whichever fits. I did that just today on what I had the cattle grazing for the last week. I have tried both leaving and clipping and I get better regrowth on the clipped along with less weeds. I want no thatch when the fescue starts regrowing.


I'd leave the stems and not mow. After dealing with droughts for a number of years, it dawned on me that the pastures that were left tall and ragged did not quit growing as fast as the ones that were mowed to look nice. I think that the tall stems provide a roughness to keep the hot winds from reaching the ground and evaporating the dew and the rainfall. And take a look at how much it costs to run a tractor and mower over an acre. I do not think that you can earn it back and probably even lose production from mowing.

Don't know if any of you get the "Cattle Today" magazine or not. I glanced at an article in the newest one a couple of nights ago. The topic was about discounts and premiums for selling calves. One of the deepest discounts was if the calf showed any Longhorn influence. The next deepest discount, I think, was from being small framed calves. I seen some comments here that encourage folks to have smaller cattle. How do you deal with the lower value for your calves? Do you think that FS 5 cattle are bad for some reason?


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## agmantoo

Ebenezer

I run the tractor after grazing to distribute the manure. The cost to clip weed and grass heads and to distribute manure aren't very high. Having the manure in piles to where some of the areas doesn't get fertilized and having weeds to get a foothold are more costly.
It is recognized fact that small framed cattle maintain body condition with less inputs. If you rotational graze, particularly year round, there will be periods when the forage is less abundant. The smaller framed animals will not lose condition as quickly and they will recover faster. The calves that get discounted at sale time are those that do not demonstrate characteristics for muscling and rapid weight gain. As I understand most processors of boxed beef no longer want the real heavy finished animals as the system is set up to process the beeves at a weight point that is efficient to the producer and adaptable to the end user. A frame 3.5 to 4 animal can efficiently reach market weight competitively. IMO, what we need to do is to have animals that can thrive on the forage and conditions that exist where we live. If I can produce a calf that will make me a nice profit at 550lbs why would I want to try to produce a calf that weighs 650lbs from a larger framed animal that would cost me more to produce but not create as much profit? We are in the forage production business! One acre can yield only so much feed. As an example that feed may maintain a cow and her calf for a year provided the cow weighs 1000 lbs. Therefore for 10 cows you would need 10 acres and with a 100% live calving rate you would have 10 calves to sell. With larger cattle and the same 10 acres you could only feed a smaller number of animals as the acre rate is a constant under the same growing conditions. Again with a 100% calving rate you would have the same number of calves as the land will support with larger animals. For discussion lets just say 8 large frame cows so we would have 8 calves. From small framed cows the 10 calves at 550 equals 5,500 lbs to sell. From the large framed cows the 8 calves at 650 equals 5200 lbs to sell. This is assuming that the small frame animals will produce smaller calves but with the right bull this should not happen. Other benefits are that smaller frame cows reach maturity earlier. Over the productive life span of a cow, a cow that has her first calf at 24 months of age will produce an extra calf over a slow maturing cow. It is nearly impossible to make up this lost opportunity over the life of the larger framed cow.
Small boned calves do get discounted but small framed calves showing good potential seldom get docked IMO.


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## godsgapeach

Congratulations, ArmyDoc! That's great news!

To upload pics just go to photobucket and when your pics upload you'll have a URL to plug in here (the little mountain looking icon at the top of the reply box).


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## Ebenezer

> The cost to clip weed and grass heads and to distribute manure aren't very high.


Are you considering the total cost of the tractor and labor or just fuel? Dragging would be a good bit cheaper than mowing. If you do not consider all of your costs you are discussing this as a hobby rather than a business.



> It is recognized fact that small framed cattle maintain body condition with less inputs.


I do not fully agree that any small cow is more able to maintain body condition than an average sized cow. The missing link in our discussion is selecting genetics to raise adapted cattle.



> If you rotational graze, particularly year round, there will be periods when the forage is less abundant. The smaller framed animals will not lose condition as quickly and they will recover faster.


We've been rotational grazing and strip grazing for over 20 years with FS 5 cows that probably range from FS 3+ to 6+. Size has nothing to do with cattle efficiency, it is the selection of genetics that are important.



> The calves that get discounted at sale time are those that do not demonstrate characteristics for muscling and rapid weight gain. As I understand most processors of boxed beef no longer want the real heavy finished animals as the system is set up to process the beeves at a weight point that is efficient to the producer and adaptable to the end user. A frame 3.5 to 4 animal can efficiently reach market weight competitively.


You've not been to an auction barn lately if you think the buyers will buy a small framed calf without discount.



> IMO, what we need to do is to have animals that can thrive on the forage and conditions that exist where we live. If I can produce a calf that will make me a nice profit at 550lbs why would I want to try to produce a calf that weighs 650lbs from a larger framed animal that would cost me more to produce but not create as much profit?


Poor genetics and non-adapted cattle will cost you money. I agree that there is a limit to size (on both ends) but not sure that we're discussing large framed cattle. I mentioned FS 5. That is pretty much middle of the road and will kill where the packers want them.



> We are in the forage production business! One acre can yield only so much feed. As an example that feed may maintain a cow and her calf for a year provided the cow weighs 1000 lbs. Therefore for 10 cows you would need 10 acres and with a 100% live calving rate you would have 10 calves to sell. With larger cattle and the same 10 acres you could only feed a smaller number of animals as the acre rate is a constant under the same growing conditions. Again with a 100% calving rate you would have the same number of calves as the land will support with larger animals. For discussion lets just say 8 large frame cows so we would have 8 calves. From small framed cows the 10 calves at 550 equals 5,500 lbs to sell. From the large framed cows the 8 calves at 650 equals 5200 lbs to sell. This is assuming that the small frame animals will produce smaller calves but with the right bull this should not happen. Other benefits are that smaller frame cows reach maturity earlier. Over the productive life span of a cow, a cow that has her first calf at 24 months of age will produce an extra calf over a slow maturing cow. It is nearly impossible to make up this lost opportunity over the life of the larger framed cow.


You are assuming equal value for the calves. Won't happen due to the discount on the small framed calves. The other thing is that you assume that a 1250 pound cow eats 1.25 times what a 1000 pound cow eats. I think that research puts the actual figure a good bit lower, maybe about at 1.14. And there is a purchase price per cow and an annual cost per cow.



> Small boned calves do get discounted but small framed calves showing good potential seldom get docked IMO


Can be sure to agree that fine boned cattle will get a deeper discount but the small framed cattle will also get a discount.

I am not anti small as the smaller end and some of the moderate sized calves we sell do exceptionaly well in a grassfed program. I just hate to see folks buy in on the "small is great" for a commercial herd and then get their hineys burned and are stuck with a downsized herd. Cattle in the SE aready take a discount and I do not see how taking more discounts really adds up. But I am looking at it as a business. You've got a lot of good ideas and tips. I really like all of the clovers in your pastures.


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## agmantoo

Ebenezer
Trust me, I am not in the cattle business as a hobby. I have a commercial cow herd that is adapted to my place and my manner of production. I am a low cost producer and will put my profit margin up against anyone that is not stealing. I control weeds and do not buy commercial fertilizer so I need to care for my paddocks. I can extend the growing period of my grass by not letting the grass go to seed. I do drag when I do not need to clip as it is more efficient. I watch what my calves sell for and where they fall in the selling prices in their weight range. The sale barn where I market my calves has a video setup for the internet so I have no need to go to the facility. I have no calving problems nor do I have a problem with the cows cycling and rebreeding. I am using 2 1/2% times the body weight as for the amount of forage consumed. Most folks say to use 3%. As for comparing income from selling calves the 550 weight calves will bring more per lb than the 650 lb calves so their is a discrepancy there if making an equal selling price comparison. I am not saying small is great. I am saying that frame 3.5 to frame 4 cattle are cheaper keepers and that for a rotational grazing program they will perform better. My bull weighed 1906 lbs when he was last weighed and my calves are not docked at the sale barn. You seem to think that a frame 4 animal is a dwarf. They are not! I have said before that cattle need to be adapted to eating forage, particular fescue and that culling is necessary. I have also stated that I am not the midwife to a cow and that cows should be able to calve naturally unaided. Are you making/buying hay for Winter? Possibly we agree on more than we are debating but I am only writing paragraphs here and not a book. You have your opinion of what works for you and I have my opinion of what works for me. Both of us seem content and I see no reason to debate the points where we differ.


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## Ebenezer

> Are you making/buying hay for Winter?


Zero hay for the cows. No commercial fertilizer.



> I am not saying small is great. I am saying that frame 3.5 to frame 4 cattle are cheaper keepers and that for a rotational grazing program they will perform better. My bull weighed 1906 lbs when he was last weighed and my calves are not docked at the sale barn. You seem to think that a frame 4 animal is a dwarf. They are not! I have said before that cattle need to be adapted to eating forage, particular fescue and that culling is necessary.


I am not saying big is great. My favorite sized cow would be a FS 4. If money was not an issue I'd probably have Pineywoods cattle. I really like their usefulness and origins in the SE and gulf coast. But all in all, the most useful commercial calf for most folks is FS 5+/-. You cannot seem to think that I called FS 4 cattle dwarfs?? I remember real dwarfs from the '60s. A lot of that came from folks trying to maintain "belt buckle" cattle.

We do agree on a lot of things: the majority. But there are some folks down in GA that decided to buy a smaller bull from back in other pages of this discussion and I think you gave them the link. The marketer (probably not the breeder) of that bull promotes small cows. This is a big thread and I have skimmed some of it but not all. So tell me if I'm wrong on any of this. Unless they can sell through video sales, anything they send through an auction barn will get discounted if it is small. We sell some cattle in GA. I doubt that their bull has the adapted genetics to work on a farm in the SE that might have fungus infected fescue? 

Here's one of my opinions: You are doing the right thing selling yours at the weight you do. If you were to wean and background them, they would be exhibiting their heights more as yearlings. There is a place for all cattle that are sold. Marketing is a key point. The option to background in some years is a money maker.

The biggest difference in this discussion, and all should know, including silent readers who read and try to emulate your success, is that FS has nothing to do with adaptability to types of forage. It is the genetics of the animals that affect the adaptability and the do-ability. Last year I went to a farm that has Belted Galloways. Average animal was about FS 2 to 3. The owner said that any grazing during the summer was done at night. He also said that the animals lost weight in the summer and gained weight in the winter. Genetics. I've been to KY, here in SC, down in GA, down in LA and all around and there are folks who have long term cattle herds with average sized cows. The ones that do the best are adapted genetics. Each region needs different adapations.

If folks just look at size they can gravitate to "type breeders" and cattle function moves back a peg in priority just to get the correct type or look. That's why I mentioned a range of cattle sizes on the farm. I am not interested in just a size but function. It is an economic decision of raising replacements from cows that do well. If they are a little taller or a little shorter, it is fine as long as they live up to their function.

I totally agree with your type of management, your help to others, etc. I just find it uncomfortable to read some of this and know that folks are being influenced without a good discussion of the marketing end of things. The cattle industry does have a "bigness" problem. Packers want as big of a carcass as they can hang on a hook because the yield of meat is how they get paid. Bigger carcasses = more total pounds of meat. Sounds pretty good until you add in some of the things that you and I know about the economics of a commercial cow/calf operation and then go out to see what the average consumer really wants. The REA on a big steer might be 16 sq. in. or more. The average consumer, from some industry studies over the years, have little use for a ribeye steak that big and cannot afford it. The range of most desired sizes are about 12.5 sq. in. to about 14 sq. in. If that is a target, then an average 1200 pound steer could easily meet this goal with average muscling and a REA/CWT of 1 to 1.2. If his dam weighed 1100 pounds this is quite easy to obtain if the sire has more growth potential than the dam (steer finish weight = dam weight + 100 pounds). In a herd where the owner desires more of a balance in maternal and terminal traits for the bull and cows, the cow would have to contribute as much of the growth potential as the bull so that would bring her mature weight up a little but not too much.

I have no desire to debate. You have done a wonderful job and service to share your knowledge, time, pictures, etc. I just want readers to have a chance to read that the only option is not to decrease the MW of the cow to the detriment of the marketing end of their business and that size adjustment alone , without genetic selection, does not equal function, adaptability, easy-keeping or any other positive attribute that anyone can use.


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## trbizwiz

I just wanted to chime in and tell everyone thanks so much for your input here. I am learning so much. 
My girls are off being bred right now. They have been gone for about 2 weeks hopefully they will be back in another 3 weeks or so. My little dairy cross former bottle calves are not keeping up with things. I think next year I may have to add sheep just to keep up during spring and early summer.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
How about an update on the pastures and the fly situation? Do I dare ask about the persimmon sprouts?


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## agmantoo

Recently there was a discussion regarding feeding tall grass and grass that has been clipped. I had time today to take a few pics and I want to share what a paddock area looks like that was left "as is" and a paddock area that has been cared for to prolong the growth and to create a stockpiling for potential summer drought.

Here is a paddock area of established grass/clover that was left alone









and here is a managed area of established grass









this 3rd pic is of new grass with clover that was grazed twice this Spring and managed


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## Ebenezer

Can you estimate that there are more pounds of forage per acre due to clipping? Will the additional growth pay the per hour rate on the tractor, mower and labor? Have you had any drought periods or are you experiencing adequate rainfall? Do you have excess forage? A lot to consider. Bottom line: did it make you any money to mow? Leaving the "wind buffer" of seedheads is more useful during periods of drought or forage shortages. Otherwise it is all cosmetic.


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## agmantoo

Ebenezer
Where I did not mow all that I have remaining is heavy stemmed clover and thatch plus weeds that are going to seed. As it gets hotter the clover will continue to perish and the weeds will continue to make seeds to propagate their existence and the thatch will mat rather than deteriorate rapidly.

I have not had a drought period this season but I have no crystal ball to forecast the future. One thing for certain that I have learned farming is to never waste forage and never assume that what the conditions are today will prevail tomorrow. Whether I have excess forage now or not will only be known in the future. 

Did I make money by mowing? Mowing and staying prepared to have feed and not to stress my herd is a lot like buying fire insurance on the home. Preparedness has an expense. Unpreparedness has a greater expense. For me, I am running a 30 year old tractor most of the time, I do my own maintenance and I am the only labor on the farm and I get the profit, all of it. Not only as I go through these efforts for the present, I am planning for the future forage I expect to be growing and the reduction of input costs such as herbicides. I am planning on keeping the herd in good body condition so that the calves will be growing and that the cows will breed back quickly. Yes, I do spend time and money to make money and to enable me to do so going forward. You might say that I have learned how to sleep on a stormy night because I prepared by doing the chores before dark. PS....I like cosmetics also but I do not do much unnecessary work.


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## Ebenezer

Sounds good. What weeds do you control by mowing? Much below the NC/SC line it is hard to keep fescue from going dormant with or without mowing by the time mid July arrives.


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## godsgapeach

Just an update on where we stand, if anybody's interested... I have only moved the herd through 4 of the 8 paddocks we set up and today I was able to move them back to the first paddock again. I'm saving the other 4 for hotter weather as they're closer to the creek and larger shaded areas. They'll head that way after they finish the paddock they're in, in about a week.


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## godsgapeach

agmantoo said:


> godsgapeach
> How about an update on the pastures and the fly situation? Do I dare ask about the persimmon sprouts?


Agman, I didn't see this post until just now. Apparently I missed checking on a few posts on the site and didn't get the auto email saying there were new messages. 

The pastures are in great shape. I have been bushhogging as we go to knock down the tallest of the fescue, because the cows seem to like to get to a paddock fairly soon after it has been mowed. 

I gave them one portion of one paddock that remained unmowed just because I wanted to see how the herd would treat it and found that they tromped down far more than they ate of it. Won't waste that again!

The very first paddock they grazed is where I returned them today. It is lush and green--nicer than any of the others they've grazed because it's had the best opportunity to grow after the limited rain we've had lately.

But my plan is to mow the odd shaped paddock tomorrow and allow them access back to the creek and the shade there, and work off the paddocks nearby for the hottest part of the summer.

The flies have dispersed--for a while they were pretty bad--but they don't seem to be as troublesome as they were a few weeks ago.

And as for the persimmons, I'm going to start spraying them as soon as the cows clear off this first paddock again--I didn't want to drag the 200 gallon spray tank over that forage once it started growing. The persimmons are still growing, so they should absorb it pretty well. Hoping to do that as they work down that area in the next week--it's supposed to be dry then...

Hope all is well with you!


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## agmantoo

Ebenezer
The wet early Spring created a mass germination of undesirable plants that have not been present in recent prior years. Weeds that I feel that I am impacting are those that produce seeds that are spread by wind and birds. Mullin, fennel, poke, thistle, dock are the main ones. Additionally, since the fescue seed have matured where left unclipped, I am spreading fescue seed which should help reestablish the grass in some of the thinner areas. I am aware of how fescue performs in parts of SC as I visit the Marlboro county area since I have tree land there. I do not see many cattle in that county. Admittedly I have often pondered as to how or what I would do if I were to have a cow/calf operation there. It would be a challenge IMO.


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## Allen W

Agmantoo

Any crabgrass or other new forage experiments this year?


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## agmantoo

Hi Allen W 

I have sown some Teff this year. It is difficult to get it established by broadcasting where a person wants to interseed in standing but grazed short grass and clover. In bare spots it rapidly germinated however. The seed are about the size of the period at the end of a sentence. The small seed pack a lot of energy. Actually I was most impressed by the Teff. On June 2 I broadcast the seed and let the cattle walk them in. Within a week there were sprouts visible particularly in the bare cow paths. I sowed my largest lane and there are several paths in it. By week 3 some of the sprouts were more than 8 inches tall. Today marks a full month since I broadcast the seed and the plants that first emerged are more than a foot tall. Teff is supposedly good hay for horses so I figure the cattle will eat it. Both wet and dry conditions are tolerated by the plant. In Ethiopia the seed are made into a type of flat bread and it is a mainstay in the diet from what I have read. Here is a pic of one of the paths. There is some type of unknown grass mixed in with the teff. The teff is the darker green plant near the atv front wheel and in the left half of the pic. This pic is 4 or 5 days old.


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## Allen W

Just read an article the other night about teff for dairy hayhttp://hayandforage.com/hay/grasses/terf-grass-dairies-0501/ Sounds like an excellent forage.

Here is a link to Cal West Seeds for Teff grass production guide.http://www.calwestseeds.com/products/documents/TeffGrassGuideCalWestVersion.pdf


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## agmantoo

Cal West Seeds was the source of the Teff seeder that I bought from a distributor. It came as a surprise that of the 50 lbs that I bought that only 49 percent of the bag was seed and the balance was coating on the seed. It was a good thing that this was just a trial planting and not for an acreage that I was expecting to get enough seed to plant. I thought the coating was rather expensive since I got a lot less seed and the coating fee equated close to what I expected to pay for pure seed. Just be advised should you decide to try Teff.


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## Allen W

Yes, That would be disappointing and aggravating. It would be interesting to try some, would take some planning and luck to make it work out.

In the production guide there is a picture of teff and alfalfa seed side by side in petri dishes, really puts the fineness of teff seed in perspective. 1.3 million teff seed per lb. compared to 220,000 alfalfa seed per pound.


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## ufo_chris

Ok, I called Powerflex to order my posts for the rotational grazing. This was the second week in May. I had just gotten off their website to order the 54'' ones ,they were clearanced at $3.89. Well,they didn't have them anymore (I asked 'why are they still on your website then?) and said they were getting in these new and improved ones next week,but they would be 4.25. I didn't like that but he said they were thicker(1.33"),so I figured ok, so I am getting my money's worth I guess.
Oh, and they were supposed to call me with the total with shipping before they were sent out.
So I waited and waited,finally wrote an email 3 weeks later, they said next week. Next week came and went so did the next,wrote another mail ,she said they were supposed to be in the week after the 4. July from this new factory. So I was like ok, I guess I'll wait .
So a couple of days ago I looked on their site to see if they removed the old posts yet (yes) and looked at the new ones. 
Well they were 4.65 not the 4.25 I got on the phone for the same lengh as the ones I wanted.
So another mail (don't have free long distance),Asked her If I could get the pallet price ($4.20) or the quoted 4.25 ,since that is what I got quoted and the long wait/run around. She said no sorry,they are $4.65!
She said I can return them if I'm not happy ! (that was a mail today) no mention if they were shipped but it sounded like it ,since she didn't say cancel the order (they were supposed to call first!). So I'm sure I'd have to pay shipping both ways!
Anyways ,got the posts by UPS a few hrs. later and they are hollow!
Were the old ones hollow?
They have a pretty thick wall (1/4' or so) but nowhere it says they are hollow!
Now DH says it will rain in them and freeze and split the posts and I have to say I agree (for once,LOL!) . I mean there is room to expand but only up ,and depending how quickly it gets to freezing I think it's very possible. 
I guess I could put some drain holes at ground level or try to cap them somehow but this is all additional time and or money.
I am just not happy with this whole thing.
Sorry this is so long,I had to vent and also ask what I should do about these posts!
Thanks,Chris


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## ArmyDoc

godsgapeach said:


> The pastures are in great shape. I have been bushhogging as we go to knock down the tallest of the fescue, because the cows seem to like to get to a paddock fairly soon after it has been mowed.


Godsgapeach,

You're outside Atlanta, right? How is the Fescue working for you? The reason I ask is that the Extension agent said we were at the extreme southern range for fescue, and thought we should go with Bermuda instead. I have a friend a bit further south growing bahia grass, which he says does well for him.

Any thoughts on this? Anyone else have experience with these forages?


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## Ebenezer

Georgia-5 Tall Fescue was developed for the coastal plains and it would do best on sandier soils. The thing that fescue will do for you, if you want to manage it, is allow stockpiled forage in the winter to avoid or reduce winter feeding. But if you don't want to manage for that, you can overseed pastures with winter annuals and small grains. And then there is hay and by-products. It is mainly an economic decision since permanent pastures are the cheapest option for most folks.


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## ArmyDoc

Definitely want to stockpile to reduce need for hay etc. Can you not do that with Bermuda?


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc said:


> Godsgapeach,
> 
> You're outside Atlanta, right? How is the Fescue working for you? The reason I ask is that the Extension agent said we were at the extreme southern range for fescue, and thought we should go with Bermuda instead. I have a friend a bit further south growing bahia grass, which he says does well for him.
> 
> Any thoughts on this? Anyone else have experience with these forages?


We've got plenty of fescue and there's bermuda mixed in. The fescue doesn't grow in the hottest part of summer but the bermuda does. And the fescue is very healthy in spring and fall. The combination is a good one for this area. I'd hate to depend solely on one variety. And if you look back at some of my spring photos, that's fescue you see. The bermuda is much lower growing.

And for what it's worth, fescue has been in these fields for YEARS--probably 40-50 and it's done very well.

A resource I've found that is helpful is Southern Forages by Donald Ball http://ppi-store.stores.yahoo.net/forages.html (that's the cheapest place I found it when I bought it). You might want to check it out. It has info on most any type of forage you might see--good photos of plant and seed, growing season, management, pests, etc.

Hope that helps!


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## godsgapeach

UFO_Chris
I just read your post and I have had no experience like yours at all with either customer service or the product. 

And no my posts are not hollow. If that's the new trend, they'll be having some issues! Thankfully I still have almost 1/2 a pallet from my previous purchase.

I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you correctly ... Are the tops open? Have you tried pounding one in to see how it holds up? I can't imagine that hollow would be a good thing. 

Sorry for the trouble you're having!


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## ArmyDoc

godsgapeach said:


> We've got plenty of fescue and there's bermuda mixed in. The fescue doesn't grow in the hottest part of summer but the bermuda does. And the fescue is very healthy in spring and fall. The combination is a good one for this area. I'd hate to depend solely on one variety. And if you look back at some of my spring photos, that's fescue you see. The bermuda is much lower growing.
> 
> And for what it's worth, fescue has been in these fields for YEARS--probably 40-50 and it's done very well.
> 
> A resource I've found that is helpful is Southern Forages by Donald Ball http://ppi-store.stores.yahoo.net/forages.html (that's the cheapest place I found it when I bought it). You might want to check it out. It has info on most any type of forage you might see--good photos of plant and seed, growing season, management, pests, etc.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Thanks! I went to the Oregon State online fescue monagraph - http://forages.oregonstate.edu/tallfescuemonograph/toc

According to the map, I am write on the line and Atlanta looks to be just above the line into the region it does better. Hopefully it will do okay for me too. I probably will try planting both like you have. If one is truely not suited, I imagine it will be taken over by the other. 

I plan to mix in legumes too - not sure what yet. I'm leaning towards an intermediate white clover, but have also been reading about Sericea Lespedeza -anyone familiar with this? Not so good if you let it get tall, but if you keep it growing (4 to 15 inches) its supposed to be good - sounds perfect for a MIG program. Thoughts?


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## Texas Papaw

ufo_chris said:


> Ok, I called Powerflex to order my posts for the rotational grazing. This was the second week in May. I had just gotten off their website to order the 54'' ones ,they were clearanced at $3.89. Well,they didn't have them anymore (I asked 'why are they still on your website then?) and said they were getting in these new and improved ones next week,but they would be 4.25. I didn't like that but he said they were thicker(1.33"),so I figured ok, so I am getting my money's worth I guess.
> Oh, and they were supposed to call me with the total with shipping before they were sent out.
> So I waited and waited,finally wrote an email 3 weeks later, they said next week. Next week came and went so did the next,wrote another mail ,she said they were supposed to be in the week after the 4. July from this new factory. So I was like ok, I guess I'll wait .
> So a couple of days ago I looked on their site to see if they removed the old posts yet (yes) and looked at the new ones.
> Well they were 4.65 not the 4.25 I got on the phone for the same lengh as the ones I wanted.
> So another mail (don't have free long distance),Asked her If I could get the pallet price ($4.20) or the quoted 4.25 ,since that is what I got quoted and the long wait/run around. She said no sorry,they are $4.65!
> She said I can return them if I'm not happy ! (that was a mail today) no mention if they were shipped but it sounded like it ,since she didn't say cancel the order (they were supposed to call first!). So I'm sure I'd have to pay shipping both ways!
> Anyways ,got the posts by UPS a few hrs. later and they are hollow!
> Were the old ones hollow?
> They have a pretty thick wall (1/4' or so) but nowhere it says they are hollow!
> Now DH says it will rain in them and freeze and split the posts and I have to say I agree (for once,LOL!) . I mean there is room to expand but only up ,and depending how quickly it gets to freezing I think it's very possible.
> I guess I could put some drain holes at ground level or try to cap them somehow but this is all additional time and or money.
> I am just not happy with this whole thing.
> Sorry this is so long,I had to vent and also ask what I should do about these posts!
> Thanks,Chris


Chris

Shortly after reading your post, I saw a Powerflex ad in a magazine and low and behold it looks like there is a cap on the post. Don't suppose the extra cost is for the cap. Did they send caps? Have you tried to drive any of the posts in yet? Let us know how that goes.

Have never used the Powerflex posts but have made other purchases. Have had nothing but good experience with them. 

On a slightly different subject: Know of a guy who used white pvc pipe for line posts. Just drilled a hole and used a cotter pin to attach wire. Said it was much cheaper than small fiberglass. IMO-the gray pvc conduit is treated UV resistant. Should last longer. Have a stick of 1/2 " gray pvc it is somewhat flexible. Hmmm-maybe I should try it for posts.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## ufo_chris

Godsgapeach
Yes they are open!
I have not pounded any yet,am still debating what to do.
I think they would drive ok,if the ground isn't dry , I'm just worried about the Ohio winters and water freezing inside.
I remember one of your posts you said you were happy with them so I was really surprised when they would not work with me at all (I asked nicely).
Get on their website and read their explanation why they switched to these posts,You might not like what they have to say about the old ones.
Don't know what's worse
Papaw
That's funny, I actually ad been thinking about using the pvc pipes for posts, but thinking there must be a reason I have never heard of anyone using them....
HMMM, Caps in the pic.....I'm gonna have to go outside now and empty the whole box out and see if there are some.
If there are in there, they should still say in their description that they are hollow,especially since the old ones were not!
Thanks Guys,I will let you know.
Chris


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## godsgapeach

After reading your post yesterday I emailed the company asking about them being hollow and got a response right back. Like Texas Papaw said above, they're supposed to come with a cap.

I read the explanation of why they changed manufacturers and design. But at this point, mine are in the ground and so far I'm pleased with them. No breakage--though if I was trying to pound them during a drought, it wouldn't surprise me. 

I'll be interested to see how they work out if you decide to keep them.


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## RBC81

ArmyDoc,

I am located in SW Tennessee. I have a mix of grasses icluding fescue clover and bermuda. The bermuda is great in the hot part of the summer, but it does take a while for it to get going in the summer. It was late May before it did much of anything this year. It also dies out in cool weather pretty quickly. If the goal is year round grazing it will probably make a good addition but I wouldn't depend on it alone. I have a couple of fields that started with a little serica and are now completely covered. Also other fields are now starting to fill in pretty thickly with it. If you decide to use it be aware it can spread and is not that easy to get rid of. I did some research a couple years ago and something about how it reseeds itself makes it difficult to keep it under control. However it is growing when nothing else will on our place. Drought doesent seem to bother it.

RC


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## Ebenezer

You can "stockpile" frost killed bermuda and it will keep dry cows in good condition until about the end of December. But then you need to go to hay, feed, fescue or winter annuals. But if you have a dry fall you might not have any bermuda left to help you out.

Serecia Lespedeza has weak seedling vigor and should be established alone prior to adding the other desired forage species. If you want the best grazing type, it would probably be AU Grazer. If you just want to fix N in the soil and have a little drought relief in a dry fall you could plant the common type.

The establishment and location of fescue pastures has some to do with when your cows calve. If you calve in the early spring or winter, you'll want fescue pastures in areas where you can check cows for calving issues and have facilities nearby. If you summer calve your herd, the fescue can be far away from the house or roads. Summer management has as much to do with the survival as anything. Cut it short of graze it to the ground in a dry August and it will fade out. And the mix of bermuda and fescue is hard to beat. You can somewhat manage to which species is dominate by the time you fertilize and how you manage residual heights.

Hard to beat Durana white clover in pastures if you have good control on pH. With lower pH the lespedeza will be a better choice.


----------



## ArmyDoc

Ebenezer said:


> You can "stockpile" frost killed bermuda and it will keep dry cows in good condition until about the end of December. But then you need to go to hay, feed, fescue or winter annuals. But if you have a dry fall you might not have any bermuda left to help you out.
> 
> Serecia Lespedeza has weak seedling vigor and should be established alone prior to adding the other desired forage species. If you want the best grazing type, it would probably be AU Grazer. If you just want to fix N in the soil and have a little drought relief in a dry fall you could plant the common type.
> 
> The establishment and location of fescue pastures has some to do with when your cows calve. If you calve in the early spring or winter, you'll want fescue pastures in areas where you can check cows for calving issues and have facilities nearby. If you summer calve your herd, the fescue can be far away from the house or roads. Summer management has as much to do with the survival as anything. Cut it short of graze it to the ground in a dry August and it will fade out. And the mix of bermuda and fescue is hard to beat. You can somewhat manage to which species is dominate by the time you fertilize and how you manage residual heights.
> 
> Hard to beat Durana white clover in pastures if you have good control on pH. With lower pH the lespedeza will be a better choice.


Thanks Ebenezer,

When we close, I'll get a soil test. We'll be converting planted pine to pasture, so I expect it will take some time before we have decent soil to work with. The lespedeza sounded good because it was supposed to have a good root system for drought tollerance and help with nitrogen. I had originally looked at white clover, but it sounds (reading between the lines) that I will need better soil conditions before I could expect it to "take"

We have to determine where we want pastures and homesite - I think we're pretty much decided, but will be working with the forestry agent a bit more about this. Once settled, I expect we'll clear the some of the low value forest this fall and plant a cover crop like winter rye to protect against erosion and improve the soil a bit. But what/when we plant next is what I'm trying to decide. I think I want to end up with a fescue/bermuda/legume mix.


Thanks for your input!


----------



## ufo_chris

Godsgapeach,sorry I didn't post right away, had to go to work and I'm always short on time on those days.
They did send the caps seperatly in the bottom of the box!
I still think this should be mentioned!
I'm just still unhappy about their 'customer service'. 
You know I only got 28 posts,would have been less than $12 on $130 (before shipping) and they would not do that after having me wait almost 2 month instead of 1 week AND quoting me the wrong price.
I am going to use them,I'm sure I'd have to eat the shipping both ways which is $60,so I will just use them and hope for the best.
I hope yours will last and not break, that would be a pain, you have a bunch too,not just 28! 
How far up did you drill yours? Are you happy with the height? 
Any calves ever get under them?
I've had that happen with my old RG but they would never find their way back out so I want to keep them from doing that.
Thanks,Chris


----------



## CrashTestRanch

First post, been reading this entire thread for about a week now. Thanks everyone who has contributed.

Agmantoo, 
We are as green as your grass (city dust still on our penny loafers and suits), and we have a few questions if you don't mind?


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

Welcome to the site.

I see you are in Arizona which I have only visited. If you are going to have cattle there that could pose a problem due to my lack of familiarity. Otherwise, I will try to answer your questions. PS..... I grew up in town also. : )


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Thanks Agmantoo, not all of Arizona is "desert" 

Our first questions are more on your business/management model: overhead/gross/net/expenses, if you would rather not post sensitive financial info, we totally understand.

You had stated earlier that you profit approximately $550/head at sale for the feeder calves, does this take into account the supplementing of salt/minerals per calf plus costs of water, medical bills etc?

What are the water costs for the cattle? Can you provide cost per calf, birth to sale? 
Are you on well water, city water, creek, river?

What, if any medical expenses are there associated with your business model? Are they factored into the profit/calf?

What are your seed costs for those 161 acres?

Is your property owned outright or mortgaged?


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch said:


> Thanks Agmantoo, not all of Arizona is "desert"
> 
> Our first questions are more on your business/management model: overhead/gross/net/expenses, if you would rather not post sensitive financial info, we totally understand.
> 
> You had stated earlier that you profit approximately $550/head at sale for the feeder calves, does this take into account the supplementing of salt/minerals per calf plus costs of water, medical bills etc?
> 
> I would have to check back but I will not take the time. What I should have said is something resembling this. I sell calves at approximately 550 lbs live weight. At $1 per lb the bulk of the $550 is mine. I am a low cost producer and strive to remain one. My input costs are less than 25 cents per lb for calves sold. This does include minerals and salt. Water is from either a stream or well for drinking. No irrigation. If you are referring to Vet bills as medical then the answer in near nil. I do not use a vet. If I cannot cure the problem I put the animal down. If I had a major herd problem then obviously I would get Vet support. I try hard to never stress my animals and to keep them healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the water costs for the cattle? Can you provide cost per calf, birth to sale?
> 
> The calves are produced from the maintained cow herd and bull. The streams flow year round most years providing drinking water. I use the well water as backup or convenience. The cattle are feed grass and legumes from the paddocks/pasture 24/7/365. I do not buy commercial fertilizer. I do buy some fuel to run the tractors. The tractors were depreciated years ago. I hay no hay equipment and I do not buy hay. My production costs are less than 25 cents per lb for the animals marketed.
> 
> Are you on well water, city water, creek, river?
> 
> What, if any medical expenses are there associated with your business model? Are they factored into the profit/calf?
> 
> No Vet fees are incurred. I do buy a few items such as castrating bands, limit antibiotics and wound cote.
> 
> What are your seed costs for those 161 acres?
> 
> I harvest seed from the paddocks and use my own seed. I do buy $500 to $800 worth of seed some years to supplement the seed I plant that I harvested
> 
> Is your property owned outright or mortgaged?


The property was bought and paid for by me.


----------



## godsgapeach

ufo_chris said:


> Godsgapeach,sorry I didn't post right away, had to go to work and I'm always short on time on those days.
> 
> How far up did you drill yours? Are you happy with the height?
> Any calves ever get under them?
> I've had that happen with my old RG but they would never find their way back out so I want to keep them from doing that.
> Thanks,Chris


No problem, Chris. I'm having issues with HT not sending me email notifications when someone posts to this thread, so I don't always know when there's a question for me. I've been trying to check more regularly, but I still miss things.

I drilled my posts at 34 inches and I'm happy with it. The calves have learned to go under and come back to their mamas. They figure it out pretty quickly.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> I sell calves at approximately 550 lbs live weight. At $1 per lb the bulk of the $550 is mine.


Thank you for the clarification.



agmantoo said:


> I am a low cost producer and strive to remain one. My input costs are less than 25 cents per lb for calves sold. This does include minerals and salt.


Again, thanks.



agmantoo said:


> Water is from either a stream or well for drinking. No irrigation.


Another thanks, very low input ($$$) if from the well and nil input ($$$) from the stream. 




agmantoo said:


> If you are referring to Vet bills as medical then the answer in near nil. I do not use a vet. If I cannot cure the problem I put the animal down. If I had a major herd problem then obviously I would get Vet support. I try hard to never stress my animals and to keep them healthy.


That is very good to know, do you have some formal training in vet care or is it self taught (books, friends etc)?



agmantoo said:


> The cattle are feed grass and legumes from the paddocks/pasture 24/7/365. I do not buy commercial fertilizer. I do buy some fuel to run the tractors. The tractors were depreciated years ago. I hay no hay equipment and I do not buy hay.


How do you harvest your grass seed for storing?



agmantoo said:


> My production costs are less than 25 cents per lb for the animals marketed.


So, you are pocketing 75% (less the taxman of course) - *WOW* still.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Agmantoo, a few more questions if you don't mind:

How many head do you send out the 4 times a year?


Do you sort and load yourself? If not, are these costs also included already?


Do you have a dedicated sorting area?


How do you get them down to the sorting area? Using a temporary lane?


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch said:


> Agmantoo, a few more questions if you don't mind:
> 
> How many head do you send out the 4 times a year?
> I market roughly 82 to 86 head per year. Each quarter may vary as to the number of calves sent to market.
> 
> 
> Do you sort and load yourself? If not, are these costs also included already?
> I sort by myself. The trip to market is only 22 miles. I hire a local cattle producer to transport the calves. He helps me load his trailer. It is cheaper to use his equipment than to own the machinery plus I need his help to load as sometimes the trailer is packed.
> 
> Do you have a dedicated sorting area?
> Yes, built from recycled guardrail.
> 
> 
> How do you get them down to the sorting area? Using a temporary lane?


I move the entire herd into a chain link fenced holding pen. From this holding pen I move them via a lane to the sorting area in small manageable groups of 10 to 12 and sort. The animals going to market are held in a pen together and the others are permitted to go to an adjacent paddock.


----------



## ufo_chris

godsgapeach said:


> No problem, Chris. I'm having issues with HT not sending me email notifications when someone posts to this thread, so I don't always know when there's a question for me. I've been trying to check more regularly, but I still miss things.
> 
> I drilled my posts at 34 inches and I'm happy with it. The calves have learned to go under and come back to their mamas. They figure it out pretty quickly.


Thanks Godsgapeach! I guess mine were just stupid,glad to hear most are not!
It's really hot and dry here right now so I'll wait to put these up till the conditions are better .
I only have around 5 or 6 acres to do so once I get to it shouldn't take very long.
Thanks for all your help,
Chris


----------



## CrashTestRanch

thanks again for sharing Agmantoo.

I too, will also be working things by myself. And sharing your management techniques/style are priceless to me.


Do you have some formal training in vet care or is it self taught (books, friends etc)?



How do you harvest your grass seed for storing?


----------



## Ebenezer

Most cattle folks plan to treat their animals with vaccines, fly treatment, wormr, ear tags, pay a hauling fee or own a trailer to keep up, repair fences, spray weeds, repair equipment, have educational expenses, have a pickup truck and milage to pick up seeds and supplies, fuel costs, etc. These may not all be annual costs but they often depreciate over a multi year period but have a one time billing cost. In other words, they remove real profit for a number of years even though you pay for them outright in the first year. 

If you put an animal down instead of allowing a vet on the farm, you still have a disposal cost to remain legal in most states. I certainly would not build a business model on 0.25 cents per cost of gain. Pretty sure that I would not believe that from 50 +/- years of experience. You have taxes to pay, insurance costs, overhead, etc. Beware of what you read without getting all of the details. My time is worth something, too!

You can look at some of the grazing data from Dr. Ball at AU or other researchers and the grazing cost is more that that per pound on trials without N and including legumes. This includes both permanent pastures and temp grazing trials. A lot of data from a number of states to back up their data.

There are some additional incomes on most beef farms. On the average, 10% of your annual income is from selling cull cows and bulls. You can value add to your cull cows if you can sell them as grassfed hamburger. You can value add to your heifers if you can sell them as breeding stock. And you can value add to your steers if you can direct sell them to folks who produce grassfed beef or who do some backgrounding. A big step of time and effort is the direct sale of meat. All of these value added steps require more time and education for you, even from bad experiences.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Ebenezer said:


> _Most cattle folks plan to treat their animals with vaccines, fly treatment, wormr, ear tags, pay a hauling fee or own a trailer to keep up, repair fences, spray weeds, repair equipment, have educational expenses, have a pickup truck and milage to pick up seeds and supplies, fuel costs, etc. These may not all be annual costs but they often depreciate over a multi year period but have a one time billing cost. In other words, they remove real profit for a number of years even though you pay for them outright in the first year.
> 
> If you put an animal down instead of allowing a vet on the farm, you still have a disposal cost to remain legal in most states. I certainly would not build a business model on 0.25 cents per cost of gain. Pretty sure that I would not believe that from 50 +/- years of experience. You have taxes to pay, insurance costs, overhead, etc. Beware of what you read without getting all of the details. My time is worth something, too! _


We aren't looking to get *rich* of this venture, only sustainability at the lowest possible overhead, kinda like a retirement plan. Way too many folks live beyond their means, we are heading into this without debt/loans on the property, equipment, etc. If we can't pay cash for it, we will wait or find alternatives.




Ebenezer said:


> _You can look at some of the grazing data from Dr. Ball at AU or other researchers and the grazing cost is more that that per pound on trials without N and including legumes. This includes both permanent pastures and temp grazing trials. A lot of data from a number of states to back up their data.
> _


Can you provide some links to this data, I would like to read it.




Ebenezer said:


> _On the average, 10% of your annual income is from selling cull cows and bulls._


Why only *10%*?


----------



## agmantoo

"On the average, 10% of your annual income is from selling cull cows and bulls. "

Selling cull brood stock generates gross income but little or no profit. To maintain the head count these animals have to be replaced. Saving good heifers as replacement from ones own stock is the forfeiture of that animals income and settling instead for a small price per lb for the cull animal. Buying brood stock from outsiders result in higher replacement costs. There is very little net profit from cull animals if you maintain the head count of the parent herd. Gross income is nearly meaningless to me. I am interested in high net profit and I do not look to get it from the income from cull animals. With high production costs and low net profit from the feeder calves marketed could make the sale price of a cull cow appear differently to some producers


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Agmantoo,

Do you do any burn on your pasture?

Also, any deferment or rest for extended lengths, i.e. months, a year?


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch
No burning on the pastures. I work to not permit thatch buildup by timely rotary mowing and through managing the grazing. At this time I guess I need to mention that until the rotational grazing gets to be "old Hat" it is easy to get more cattle than the place can carry in some seasons. For example, twice a year I have more surplus forage than needed but at other times I have a good match of herd size to available forage. When I first started raising feeder calves the brood cows numbered 42. At this time I am up to 92 and IMO could handle a few more but I need to be cautious. All of the increased headcount did not come from rotational grazing as I am constantly reclaiming what was nearly waste land. Rotational grazing creates the rest periods and promotes forage sustainability. Also realize that I never till the soil. I have built what topsoil that exists as a thin top layer and I am constantly trying to add to that layer. Soil compaction can also be a problem here since the soil never freezes over a few inches deep and the clay is easily compacted. Machinery is not permitted in the pasture areas when the ground is wet. I concentrate on keeping the fertility as high as justifiable and the PH at a desirable level. It is the attention to the small things that create the sought after end results.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Thanks Agmantoo,

I had read a paper from the University of Arizona College of Agriculture concerning MiG and arid regions, that had stated to adjust herd size according to seasons. 

A SUMMARY OF LIVESTOCK GRAZING SYSTEMS USED ON RANGELANDS IN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES AND CANADA

A summary from the Arizona Cooperative Extension


----------



## Ebenezer

Crasher,

http://www.caes.uga.edu/commodities/fieldcrops/forages/events/misc/LegFD10.htm

This is the link to UGA forages, look at the last option about stocker cattle and forage costs. Pretty informative in the fact that some of the best pastures had a lot of gain but were more costly than some of the old tried and true plantings. 

10% of your annual income from culling is an average used by most Extension folks for budgeting. Not culling to be culling, but after you get established there are cows and bulls each year that develop some problem and need to ride to town. It is not a goal to strive for and the less culling you can do the more profitable you can potentially be with lower replacement costs. If you want to retire into the cattle business, you might not want to make a killing (and probably will not) but you will want to run it as a business and have good written records, have a business plan, etc to be ready for the IRS. You will be seen as a potential hobbiest if you do not run things as a business, especially records. There is an attorney that writes an article in Gulf Coast Cattleman magazine and he makes a real point over records. You can subscribe for free and it is pretty interesting and helpful.

You mentioned burning pastures. Fire is a good tool to control spittle bugs in bermudagrass with a late winter burn and if you have native grass pastures, like the native warm season grasses we have in the SE, it is also beneficial to the stands of grass. Fire will ruin a good fescue pasture by killing a lot of the fescue.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Ebenezer said:


> _Crasher,
> 
> http://www.caes.uga.edu/commodities/fieldcrops/forages/events/misc/LegFD10.htm
> 
> This is the link to UGA forages, look at the last option about stocker cattle and forage costs. Pretty informative in the fact that some of the best pastures had a lot of gain but were more costly than some of the old tried and true plantings. _


Not sure but I think you are referring to this article?

Stocker Cattle
Performance and Calculated Pasture Costs

Good read so far. Thanks



Ebenezer said:


> _10% of your annual income from culling is an average used by most Extension folks for budgeting. Not culling to be culling, but after you get established there are cows and bulls each year that develop some problem and need to ride to town. It is not a goal to strive for and the less culling you can do the more profitable you can potentially be with lower replacement costs. _


Same principal is used in corporate america around the first 1/4 to have a good showing for the books/stock holders, reduces tax liabilities etc..




Ebenezer said:


> _If you want to retire into the cattle business, you might not want to make a killing (and probably will not) but you will want to run it as a business and have good written records, have a business plan, etc to be ready for the IRS. You will be seen as a potential hobbiest if you do not run things as a business, especially records. _


Can you expand on the hobbyist/business statement? Am interested, as it seems there's a hierarchy of some sorts in the cattle trade.

Records are a non-issue as my girl is an accountant of the old school persuasion (hates computers and LOVES paper work) and I have a business degree w/ minor in accounting, but HATE corporate america after 20+ years swimming with sharks, the layoffs, politics etc.. I've had enough 




Ebenezer said:


> _There is an attorney that writes an article in Gulf Coast Cattleman magazine and he makes a real point over records. You can subscribe for free and it is pretty interesting and helpful._


Thanks for the magazine info, subscribed and looking forward to the first issue.



Ebenezer said:


> _You mentioned burning pastures. Fire is a good tool to control spittle bugs in bermudagrass with a late winter burn and if you have native grass pastures, like the native warm season grasses we have in the SE, it is also beneficial to the stands of grass. Fire will ruin a good fescue pasture by killing a lot of the fescue._


I was wondering about burning pastures as Agmantoo had brought up "Terra Preta" and wanted to know if he did any burn. As in nature, burning is a necessary "evil" in the cycle. As we reclaim this land we could make biochar and spread it to add the carbon layer.

I'm not sure I agree with ruining the fescue pasture, I'm still on the fence as I need more info about fescue maintenance both natural and managed.

 The Burning and Grazing Interaction in Fescue Prairie

Rough Fescue Grasslands

Festuca - Fire Ecology


----------



## Ebenezer

Right article for the grazing costs.

IRS is looking for folks who are hobbiest and trying to file as farmers for tax advantage. They can get pretty nasty in their search for the truth and will ask for detailed farm records, a written farm plan, and it will be key to see if you ever generate a profit (from a tax reporting basis) within a 5 year period. If you show constant losses and seem to buy stuff or spend money on recreational land use or things, they'll have you to repay multiple years of deducted farm expenses along with interest and penalities. Be sure that you can cash flow and do not overinvest in the unnecessary so that annual depreciation is a weight around your neck.

We are talking apples and donuts on the fescue. You are looking at native rough fescue prairies in good prarie soilsin the noth and Canada. We are discussing a non-native tall fescue (from Italy) in relatively poor SE soils that are originally woodland soils.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Ebenezer said:


> _IRS is looking for folks who are hobbiest and trying to file as farmers for tax advantage. They can get pretty nasty in their search for the truth and will ask for detailed farm records, a written farm plan, and it will be key to see if you ever generate a profit (from a tax reporting basis) within a 5 year period. If you show constant losses and seem to buy stuff or spend money on recreational land use or things, they'll have you to repay multiple years of deducted farm expenses along with interest and penalities. Be sure that you can cash flow and do not overinvest in the unnecessary so that annual depreciation is a weight around your neck._



I'm wondering exactly how many small farmers/ranchers have an actual written farm/business plan and stick to it?

As for the records, my girl will have that covered. 




Ebenezer said:


> _We are talking apples and donuts on the fescue. You are looking at native rough fescue prairies, in good prarie soils in the north and Canada. We are discussing a non-native tall fescue (from Italy) in relatively poor SE soils that are originally woodland soils._


And our native fescue are somewhere in between. Which is why I'm still on the fence with the whole burn thing.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Agman,

I finally GOT it, took me awhile (a little slow upstairs). Now I understand WHY you farm grass the way you do. One question though, doesn't this INCREASE you tax liability?

Was researching Debt Free Farming and was alarmed at the number of farms with huge debt loads.

Top 3 Cash Farm Expenses (18 farm averaged)

Expense avg Top 25%
Seed 1,651 3,084
Fertilizer 2,434 3,570
Crop chemicals 19,940 23,234


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

I do not know if I understand your statement "Now I understand WHY you farm grass the way you do. One question though, doesn't this INCREASE you tax liability?"

My cattle are well cared for! My intent is to make a profit and I am not embarrassed by that fact. I buy no commercial fertilizer and I harvest my own seed except for some that I buy to supplement what grass I have during certain seasons. I have a herbicide license and I do buy a few chemicals to keep the fence clean where I cannot get the mower under the fence. I also buy some fuel along with some miscellaneous items. These off the farm purchases are minimal IMO when compared to the net profit generated. It is the profit that creates the tax liability. I operate a debt free farm if that puts your mind at ease.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> My cattle are well cared for! My intent is to make a profit and I am not embarrassed by that fact.


Wasn't meant to embarrass. Sorry about my wording. Meant that you run debt free, which is how we want to keep ours from start to finish.



agmantoo said:


> I buy no commercial fertilizer and I harvest my own seed except for some that I buy to supplement what grass I have during certain seasons. I have a herbicide license and I do buy a few chemicals to keep the fence clean where I cannot get the mower under the fence. I also buy some fuel along with some miscellaneous items. These off the farm purchases are minimal IMO when compared to the net profit generated. It is the profit that creates the tax liability. I operate a debt free farm if that puts your mind at ease.


With the way you run, and after all the Income Statements I've read in the last few days, I can see now how you gross 70%. Just the savings from seed, fertilizer and chemicals alone more than make up the difference.


----------



## bruce2288

A little different take on costs to raise a calf. I figure pasture rent, even on my own land. Around here typically $170-200 for 5 month season. I could get that by renting out my pasture so that income is produced by the land not the cow-calf operation. I also figure income on the basis of selling the calf at weaning, even if I don't that is the dollars produced by the cow, not the price I recieve after I have fed or grazed the calf for 3 months. Two seperate operations cow calf and backgrounding.


----------



## Ebenezer

> A little different take on costs to raise a calf. I figure pasture rent, even on my own land. Around here typically $170-200 for 5 month season. I could get that by renting out my pasture so that income is produced by the land not the cow-calf operation. I also figure income on the basis of selling the calf at weaning, even if I don't that is the dollars produced by the cow, not the price I recieve after I have fed or grazed the calf for 3 months. Two seperate operations cow calf and backgrounding.


So you have multiple Schedule F forms in your tax returns? How does this system benefit you?


----------



## bruce2288

No thiswasn't about taxes. I could not deduct rent for myself. It is to see are cattle makeing the profit or the land. e.g. I buy a grass calf in the spring turn him to pasture sell in the fall and make $80 after all cash expenses. I could rent the pasture out for $100 for a grass calf. I did not make $80 on the calf I lost $20 by owning the calf.


----------



## jhambley

Agmantoo,

Just opened (or lifted) my first gate for the cows so they could move to the next pasture. About half the cows will not walk under the wire even though it's 8' in the air. They've been watching the other cows move back and forth for almost two full days now and still don't get the program. I even move a feed bunk into the new pen (just on the other side of the wire) and they still won't cross under the wire. Any advice?


----------



## Curtis B

Mine needed some motivation also. A step in post to the rear when the were close to the "gate" was motivation enough. Once they get the idea that is all takes.


----------



## agmantoo

jhambley 

Put the stragglers with the herd. Then do not let the stragglers return to shade or water without going under the wire. Using a few pigtail posts force the wire to the ground then cover the wire with straw or hay. There entire herd should cross the disguised wire with no problem. Once the herd is separated from water and shade put the wire back at the elevated position and leave the straw/hay under the wire. The cattle should realize that the covered ground is a safe crossing. IMO the cattle know the area where the wire was is threatening and not the wire at the 8 ft height. I had to do this to get the donkey accustomed to crossing under the wire. I think she is possible smarter than cattle but she soon adapted also. Cattle are creatures of habit and herd mentality, they will all adjust within a few more days.


----------



## jhambley

Thanks for the advice. I'll go out in the morning and step down the wire. Stay tuned...


----------



## agmantoo

jhambley

Any success with get the stragglers to move under the partition wire?


----------



## jhambley

Worked like a champ!!! Thanks for hanging in there with me.

Jerry


----------



## DianeWV

I have enjoyed following this informational thread. Thanks to Agman and everyone for their expertise and detailed questions and answers. Really a great thread.


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## Critter Keeper

Agmantoo,

I have also been following the thread and I also want to thank you and everyone else for the excellent information. I remember reading in one post that you use Parmak chargers. Can you give a little more detail on why and your experience dealing with the company in the event that you need replacement parts or other services? We need to purchase a charger and I think the Model SE-4 will more than fill our needs at the present time. I don't know of a dealer close by so I will probably order from the internet.

Cindy


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## agmantoo

Critter Keeper

ParMak has treated me like a valued customer. I had a technical question and they set me up so that I could talk to their technical support person. He was knowledgeable, did some research and provided me with the information I sought on their letterhead. I owned one of their first digital chargers and lightning took it out. The charger was already a couple of months out of warranty. They sent me a new unit FREE. ParMak's chargers are priced competitively and backed by great business practices. As long as they continue to operate in the same manner I will go back to them each time I need a charger. Lightning is a common occurrence where I live and over the years I have had a number of hits. I have even had cattle killed twice from lightning. Before going to ParMak units, I went through a lot of charger failures of units made by others and the hassle of attempting to get them to fulfill their warranties. I spent more than the Gallaghers cost trying to keep them functioning, Tractor supply units failed so frequently that I was salvaging parts from one trying to keep another operating. 

I do shop the internet for the best value in the ParMak units and usually use Jeffers as the source.


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## Critter Keeper

Agmantoo,

Thanks! That's exactly the information I was looking for. I wanted to be sure that it wouldn't be a hassle to deal with the company. I have also used several other brands of chargers and have been through many repair ordeals. DS was at the local Tractor Supply today and the Zareba 50 mile charger was around the same price as the 50 mile Parmak, but if you compare features, the Parmak wins hands down. Parmak it is.


Cindy


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## Ebenezer

Cindy,
Be sure to check your ground rod(s) with your fence tester to see if you need additional ground rods to use the full force of the charger. The last ground rod tells the tale.


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## PACrofter

Ebenezer said:


> Cindy,
> Be sure to check your ground rod(s) with your fence tester to see if you need additional ground rods to use the full force of the charger. The last ground rod tells the tale.


Displaying my ignorance here: How do I "check" the ground rod? Treat it like I would the fence itself to see how much voltage it's carrying?

Thanks!


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## Ebenezer

Yes, you push the ground contact of the tester into the ground as far away from the last ground rod as the wire will let you. Touch the fence tester to the last ground rod with the charger operating. (If the charger is not operating it will not work.) If you get much reading on the tester, it means that you do not have enough ground for the charger you are using. You are actually reading a need with the tester. 

A guy in AL told me that he got a PacMar charger from Jeffers that gave a Joules reading. Once he got in the extra ground rods he had more output from the charger that it was rated.

If you are ambitious, you can drill a hole where you'll put the ground rod, drive the rod in the bottom of the hole, mix the soil with sodium bentonite as you backfill around the ground rod and it will increase the grounding effect of the rod especially during dry weather. The sodium bentonite attacts and holds water. (You can get it from a well driller.) Even if you only dig it as deep as the posthole digger will go it is a help. Connect all of your rods with bare #4 copper wire. Minimum rod spacing is 1.5 of the total rod length.


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## CrashTestRanch

Agmantoo,

Couple of questions, if you don't mind, and if you have the time?

Do you have a lightning arrestor installed?

How many grounding rods and their spacing?

How do you harvest your seed?



thanks,
Ant


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## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

Do you have a lightning arrestor installed? 

No I do not. I do have a choke coil. I also have a surge protector on the energizer power source. The porcelein type do not work for the lightning and often they create a problem in that the material in the arrestor 
gets wet and shorts the fence to earth. I do not have all of my fence wires electrified. The top and the bottom wires are grounded. I do this to give lightning and surges a path to ground


How many grounding rods and their spacing? 

I have 3 grounding rods that are 8 feet long and are about 8 feet apart. You can drive these rods with a large hammer drill. All components are galvanized, wire ...clamps...rods

How do you harvest your seed?

I have an antique Allis Chalmers 66 combine. Paid $350 for it when I went into rotational grazing. I have harvested thousands of dollars worth of seed with it.


----------



## PACrofter

Ebenezer: Many thanks for the detailed reply! I will test my ground rod as soon as I get a chance. And install a few more, since I do only have one installed right now. This is probably why my output is not at the full rating of the unit...

One follow-up question: is sodium bentonite the same as bentonite clay?

Thanks again!



Ebenezer said:


> Yes, you push the ground contact of the tester into the ground as far away from the last ground rod as the wire will let you. Touch the fence tester to the last ground rod with the charger operating. (If the charger is not operating it will not work.) If you get much reading on the tester, it means that you do not have enough ground for the charger you are using. You are actually reading a need with the tester.
> 
> A guy in AL told me that he got a PacMar charger from Jeffers that gave a Joules reading. Once he got in the extra ground rods he had more output from the charger that it was rated.
> 
> If you are ambitious, you can drill a hole where you'll put the ground rod, drive the rod in the bottom of the hole, mix the soil with sodium bentonite as you backfill around the ground rod and it will increase the grounding effect of the rod especially during dry weather. The sodium bentonite attacts and holds water. (You can get it from a well driller.) Even if you only dig it as deep as the posthole digger will go it is a help. Connect all of your rods with bare #4 copper wire. Minimum rod spacing is 1.5 of the total rod length.


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## CrashTestRanch

Thanks Agmantoo ...



> The top and the bottom wires are grounded. I do this to give lightning and surges a path to ground


GREAT idea ... 



> I have 3 grounding rods that are 8 feet long and are about 8 feet apart. You can drive these rods with a large hammer drill. All components are galvanized, wire ...clamps...rods


Do you have additional rods out past 1000'? I've read that additional grounds should be placed every 1000'.



> I have an antique Allis Chalmers 66 combine. Paid $350 for it when I went into rotational grazing. I have harvested thousands of dollars worth of seed with it.


Nice. Gonna have to check the auctions myself, but don't wanna get ahead of myself in the plans.


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## agmantoo

Do you have additional rods out past 1000'? I've read that additional grounds should be placed every 1000'.
[/QUOTE said:


> Yes, I use recycled metal I beams and some of those are grounded. You are aware to not use the ground that is used for the incoming utility electricity aren't you?


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## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch said:


> Do you have additional rods out past 1000'? I've read that additional grounds should be placed every 1000'.


Yes, I use some recycled metal I beams as posts and some of those are grounded. You are aware to not use the ground that is used for the incoming utility electricity aren't you?


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## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> Yes, I use recycled metal I beams and some of those are grounded.


ahhh, that makes sense now, dual purpose i-beams ... :thumb:




> *You are aware to not use the ground that is used for the incoming utility electricity aren't you?*


yup, we do not have energy company lines out on the property. Well over 5 miles to the nearest. Very rugged and remote, with Primitive Roads to boot. Most of the neighbors grade their own roads.


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## Critter Keeper

Ebenezer said:


> Cindy,
> Be sure to check your ground rod(s) with your fence tester to see if you need additional ground rods to use the full force of the charger. The last ground rod tells the tale.


Will do. Thanks.



Ebenezer said:


> Yes, you push the ground contact of the tester into the ground as far away from the last ground rod as the wire will let you. Touch the fence tester to the last ground rod with the charger operating. (If the charger is not operating it will not work.) If you get much reading on the tester, it means that you do not have enough ground for the charger you are using. You are actually reading a need with the tester.
> 
> A guy in AL told me that he got a PacMar charger from Jeffers that gave a Joules reading. Once he got in the extra ground rods he had more output from the charger that it was rated.
> 
> If you are ambitious, you can drill a hole where you'll put the ground rod, drive the rod in the bottom of the hole, mix the soil with sodium bentonite as you backfill around the ground rod and it will increase the grounding effect of the rod especially during dry weather. The sodium bentonite attacts and holds water. (You can get it from a well driller.) Even if you only dig it as deep as the posthole digger will go it is a help. Connect all of your rods with bare #4 copper wire. Minimum rod spacing is 1.5 of the total rod length.


Thanks for the information. It does get dry here in the south.



agmantoo said:


> CrashTestRanch
> 
> Do you have a lightning arrestor installed?
> 
> No I do not. I do have a choke coil. I also have a surge protector on the energizer power source. The porcelein type do not work for the lightning and often they create a problem in that the material in the arrestor
> gets wet and shorts the fence to earth. I do not have all of my fence wires electrified. The top and the bottom wires are grounded. I do this to give lightning and surges a path to ground
> 
> 
> How many grounding rods and their spacing?
> 
> I have 3 grounding rods that are 8 feet long and are about 8 feet apart. You can drive these rods with a large hammer drill. All components are galvanized, wire ...clamps...rods
> 
> How do you harvest your seed?
> 
> I have an antique Allis Chalmers 66 combine. Paid $350 for it when I went into rotational grazing. I have harvested thousands of dollars worth of seed with it.


I'm glad you asked this CrashTestRanch...I was also wondering how Agmantoo harvested seed. I got the answer plus some more knowledge to boot. Thanks Agmantoo.

Cindy


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## Ebenezer

> You are aware to not use the ground that is used for the incoming utility electricity aren't you?


Good point. But here is the other side of the story that will help. If you put in 3 or 4 ground rods and your drop pole with the transformer has one ground rod, the lightning has a greater potential to strike the fence rather than the groundline at the pole before it gets to your system. If you do put in multiple rods for your fence, go to the power pole with the transformer and find the ground rod. It is usually buried right beside the pole. Tie on to it and add enough ground rods so that the power line has one more ground rod than your fence does. It will help to get the surge out before it comes to your systems.

And do not tie your charger ground system directly into either the lightning arrestor or ground wires of the fence. The lightning will make a complete loop and take it all out.

There are several kinds of bentonite. The sodium bentonite works the best. I do not remember the other kinds or the reasons for the good/bad.

Ground rods, by materials, have a life span. In acid soils a copper clad rod has a longer life than a galvanized rod. I read one time that in the SE with the bulk of the soils being acidic, the life of a galvanized rod is about 7 years. It is still there working but not grounding with as much potential as it was with full galvanized cover. And for general info, minimum spacing distance for ground rods is 1.5 times the rod length.


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## CrashTestRanch

Thanks for the info Ebenezer ...



Ebenezer said:


> _... sodium bentonite works the best._


Works for sealing leaky stock ponds too 




Ebenezer said:


> _Ground rods, by materials, have a life span. In acid soils a copper clad rod has a longer life than a galvanized rod. I read one time that in the SE with the bulk of the soils being acidic, the life of a galvanized rod is about 7 years. It is still there working but not grounding with as much potential as it was with full galvanized cover. And for general info, minimum spacing distance for ground rods is 1.5 times the rod length._


So, we should in theory, put in all copper ground rods? 

And, 8' rods should be spaced 12' correct?


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## silverbackMP

Agmantoo, 

You may have already covered this (I've read the whole thread but followed it from the start so my memory is sketchy), but have you used any form of no till grass drill when reseeding or establishing your grasses?

Do you think a smaller haybuster no till drill would work well behind a massey 65 with a fresh perkins? I do have good hyrdrualics via my loader and a crank pump (resevour is located in the loader arms); I've currently got a 3 spool valve with a service going to the back. I could get an additional service with either a electric over hydraulic or a new 4 or 5 spool valve if necessary. 

Trying to decide if I want to go with tilling, spreading, and cultipacking in the future or find a used drill. 

Thanks

Silver


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## agmantoo

silverbackMP

Let me start by saying I am biased regarding drilling. I so not like drilled grasses and legumes. The reason is that the grass will remain in the rows for a very long time. Even when the grass is knee high it is possible to use your hands and open the grass and see the rows. I want a uniform distributed stand that is interdiffused with legumes, mostly clovers. Now to anser your question...Yes I have a no till drill. Do I use it, no. There are a few times that I would have a use for one but it is seldom. It takes a lot of HP to pull a no till drill. Clean seed are also a requirement. Over time I have concluded that broadcasting suits me fine. I usually broadcast as much as 20% more seed than if I drilled. The savings in fuel and time, plus I can run under more adverse conditions, offset the expense for seed IMO. Rather than put a 100HP+ tractor on the pasture I simply use a small ATV seeder and go. If I want the seed covered I can with a 50HP tractor pull the drag harrow and broadcast using a cheap spinner broadcaster simultaneously. If I want more cover, I can broadcast first then rotary cut and let the clipping mulch the seed. Once you get a good stand of grasses established and then manage them you will realize that you will not be doing a lot of replanting. I plant mostly to supplement the existing forages. Crab grass works for hot weather and sericea for poor land. Come Fall as insurance for the Winter needs I add Marshall ryegrass to some of the fescue paddocks. Seldom do these plants cost more than $20/acre at the rates I apply. I know that I will need stockpiled feed for not less than 90 days. If Winter holds on for another 3 weeks then I may run outof feed so I plant around 20 to 25 percent of the acreage allocated for Winter grazing to offset this risk. This effort is not that great or expensive as you can see and it would not justify a notill drill if I did not already have one leftover from earlier soybean production. Unless you have very productive soil, which I don't, the best area for a seed is in the top 1/4" of soil. Most forage seeds are small and 4 times the diameter is the ideal planting depth. It is darn difficult to get a notill drill to hold that depth over its width.


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## agmantoo

I am entering into one of the most difficult times of the year to do rotational grazing. The weather is too hot for the fescue to be growing except in the shaded and dampest areas of the farm. The clovers are also starting to perish. Weather is typical for this time of year and without a tropical storm coming up the coast the next four weeks the forage will only get worse. Remember me stating when the forage was lush "never waste feed". It is for these types of situations that I have developed this attitude. When rotational grazing on non irrigated land the forage has to be managed constantly. Never take for granted that a surplus today will exist tomorrow. In the following picture you will see that I have forage but not an abundance. I am not worried at this time, only concerned. I anticipated the shift in moisture and the consequence and have set aside enough paddocks to provide feed for another 6 weeks. It is this type of management that is essential to concentrate on if you are going to do rotational grazing extensively. Any "do overs" are a year in the future after obtaining hay.


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## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> I am entering into one of the most difficult times of the year to do rotational grazing. The weather is too hot for the fescue to be growing except in the shaded and dampest areas of the farm. The clovers are also starting to perish. Weather is typical for this time of year and without a tropical storm coming up the coast the next four weeks the forage will only get worse. Remember me stating when the forage was lush "never waste feed". It is for these types of situations that I have developed this attitude. When rotational grazing on non irrigated land the forage has to be managed constantly. Never take for granted that a surplus today will exist tomorrow. In the following picture you will see that I have forage but not an abundance. I am not worried at this time, only concerned. I anticipated the shift in moisture and the consequence and have set aside enough paddocks to provide feed for another 6 weeks. It is this type of management that is essential to concentrate on if you are going to do rotational grazing extensively. Any "do overs" are a year in the future after obtaining hay.


Was looking at the pic you posted, is the above statement the reason the cattle are out on a larger paddock than your normal 1 acre paddock size?


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## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch said:


> Was looking at the pic you posted, is the above statement the reason the cattle are out on a larger paddock than your normal 1 acre paddock size?


Yes, plus they are not going to get moved tomorrow as I have a commitment that conflicts with the usual schedule


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## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> Yes, plus they are not going to get moved tomorrow as I have a commitment that conflicts with the usual schedule


Was gonna ask you what you did for vacations, weekends and appointments which keep you from moving the stock.


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## silverbackMP

agmantoo said:


> silverbackMP
> 
> Let me start by saying I am biased regarding drilling. I so not like drilled grasses and legumes. The reason is that the grass will remain in the rows for a very long time. Even when the grass is knee high it is possible to use your hands and open the grass and see the rows. I want a uniform distributed stand that is interdiffused with legumes, mostly clovers. Now to anser your question...Yes I have a no till drill. Do I use it, no. There are a few times that I would have a use for one but it is seldom. It takes a lot of HP to pull a no till drill. Clean seed are also a requirement. Over time I have concluded that broadcasting suits me fine. I usually broadcast as much as 20% more seed than if I drilled. The savings in fuel and time, plus I can run under more adverse conditions, offset the expense for seed IMO. Rather than put a 100HP+ tractor on the pasture I simply use a small ATV seeder and go. If I want the seed covered I can with a 50HP tractor pull the drag harrow and broadcast using a cheap spinner broadcaster simultaneously. If I want more cover, I can broadcast first then rotary cut and let the clipping mulch the seed. Once you get a good stand of grasses established and then manage them you will realize that you will not be doing a lot of replanting. I plant mostly to supplement the existing forages. Crab grass works for hot weather and sericea for poor land. Come Fall as insurance for the Winter needs I add Marshall ryegrass to some of the fescue paddocks. Seldom do these plants cost more than $20/acre at the rates I apply. I know that I will need stockpiled feed for not less than 90 days. If Winter holds on for another 3 weeks then I may run outof feed so I plant around 20 to 25 percent of the acreage allocated for Winter grazing to offset this risk. This effort is not that great or expensive as you can see and it would not justify a notill drill if I did not already have one leftover from earlier soybean production. Unless you have very productive soil, which I don't, the best area for a seed is in the top 1/4" of soil. Most forage seeds are small and 4 times the diameter is the ideal planting depth. It is darn difficult to get a notill drill to hold that depth over its width.


Agmantoo,

I was considering using one of the smaller drills (such as Haybuster's) designed for grass and legume seed; from what I understand these drill have much less of problem with the row affect and can plant 1/4" with no issues. I would just rent this unless one came up for sale rrrreeeaallll cheap and that is probably unlikely. I figured the germination rates would be mucher higher and I would spent much less in seed, fuel, soil distuption, etc. Seed would mostly be bluegrass,trefoil, and dutch clover and, perhaps in another pasture, endophyte free (infected with a non/less toxic fungus) fescue and some form of clover.


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## trbizwiz

Anybody use a yeomans plow for improving soil and saving moisture? I dont fully understand the principle. But I guess it has to do with breaking hard pan and bringing minerals to the surface (much like a tap root weed would do) as well as allowing air to reach the subsoil much like a tap root weed will do when it dies. I guess it conserves water by allowing more to be absorbed rather than run off. Any way, any thoughts?


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## ramiller5675

Have you read "The Keyline Plan" by Yeomans? It is available online at:

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010125yeomans/010125toc.html

It is an interesting idea, that makes sense to me, but I am unsure what would be the best way to implement it in a pasture situation (using a subsoiler set at the correct depths?). 

I do have some terraced cropland where I have "experimented" a little with the ideas. I basically picked a few terraces that have some of the characteristics of a keyline and ran the grain drill and a planter parallel to them (so that the furrows replaced the keyline cultivation). I'm not sure if it did anything, but it gives the field a certain "look" that I found attractive.

I have also brush-hogged some pastures (similar to how Agmantoo describes cutting the seedheads) and I tried to follow the keyline (contour line, etc.). My idea was that any buildup of mulch from the clipping would be concentrated parallel to the keyline and might have similar results to a cultivation. Again, I don't know if it did anything, but it looked good to my eye the way the lines were laid out after I was finished.


----------



## trbizwiz

Yes the keyline thing. Thats what I read about. I haven't read that particular article. I'll have to take a look at it. I was curious if it was just more hype or if it's the real deal. I am interested in any practices which will provide an advantage, but I am not interested in hype.


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## silverbackMP

trbizwiz said:


> Anybody use a yeomans plow for improving soil and saving moisture? I dont fully understand the principle. But I guess it has to do with breaking hard pan and bringing minerals to the surface (much like a tap root weed would do) as well as allowing air to reach the subsoil much like a tap root weed will do when it dies. I guess it conserves water by allowing more to be absorbed rather than run off. Any way, any thoughts?


Doesn't a pasture renovator do this?


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## trbizwiz

Maybe. I don't know what a pasture renovator is either.


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## Ebenezer

> Doesn't a pasture renovator do this?


A drum type pasture renovator works on the same principle as a sheep foot roller used for compacting soil. The points will create a hardpan in the soil. And there has never been a university study that showed a benefit for renovator use.

This discussion of organic matter on the soil surface being bad is quite a wonderful discussion of ignorance. The way you have slow release N in a plant system is a collection of solids, leaves, straw, and such. All of this thing that standing fescue/grass stems is bad but on the ground in some pattern is better is just nonsense. If the stems are bad, how do grasses survive without people? The stems are natural. Organic material is natural and beneficial. If they stand up they deteriorate. If they lay down they do the same. A lot of this discussion is about cosmetics and past habits. Otherwise a useless exercise or bad advice.


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## ramiller5675

Ebenezer, 

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you said "...This discussion of organic matter on the soil surface being bad is quite a wonderful discussion of ignorance..."

The main idea behind the Keyline principles is reducing or eliminating erosion and improving water infiltration to help turn subsoil into topsoil. How does saying that IF I happen to be clipping a pasture for whatever reason and IF out of curiosity I choose to clip in the same pattern that a Keyline cultivation would be carried out and IF I notice that it looks like I could reduce erosion if I cultivated the pasture in that same pattern lead to the conclusion that I am saying that organic material on the surface is bad? 

It seems pretty obvious to me that a grass plant goes through a growth cycle, the cycle starts to end when it goes to seed, if the process of going to seed can be delayed or stopped the grass plant will produce more forage and/or a higher quality forage. This idea is what the whole idea of grazing to improve a grassland is based on. If the seed heads are clipped, the growth cycle can be "tweaked" to suit the management goals. You don't need to clip your pastures if you don't need or want to. 

What is so hard to understand about that process and why are you so insistent that it should never be done?


----------



## trbizwiz

ramiller5675 said:


> Have you read "The Keyline Plan" by Yeomans? It is available online at:
> 
> http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010125yeomans/010125toc.html
> 
> It is an interesting idea, that makes sense to me, but I am unsure what would be the best way to implement it in a pasture situation (using a subsoiler set at the correct depths?).
> 
> I do have some terraced cropland where I have "experimented" a little with the ideas. I basically picked a few terraces that have some of the characteristics of a keyline and ran the grain drill and a planter parallel to them (so that the furrows replaced the keyline cultivation). I'm not sure if it did anything, but it gives the field a certain "look" that I found attractive.
> 
> I have also brush-hogged some pastures (similar to how Agmantoo describes cutting the seedheads) and I tried to follow the keyline (contour line, etc.). My idea was that any buildup of mulch from the clipping would be concentrated parallel to the keyline and might have similar results to a cultivation. Again, I don't know if it did anything, but it looked good to my eye the way the lines were laid out after I was finished.


I read the first few chapters. It seems to make sense.


----------



## Ebenezer

> I have also brush-hogged some pastures (similar to how Agmantoo describes cutting the seedheads) and I tried to follow the keyline (contour line, etc.). My idea was that any buildup of mulch from the clipping would be concentrated parallel to the keyline and might have similar results to a cultivation. Again, _I don't know if it did anything, but it looked good to my eye_


The nitrogen cycle in a pasture has a segment where dry plant material falls to the ground and gets converted so that the plant roots can absorb it in due time. The fescue is near dormant in late spring and early summer and if you mow down the seedheads, speed the decay part of the cycle and the roots are not real active to absorb the N as it is released from the rotting materials. And instead of the stems and such falling evenly across the pasture you bunch up or slightly windrow the straw so that parts of the pastures get more while others get less. 

In most cases, the most effective subsoiler is a plant root. Some of the piedmont soils are not benefited by subsoiling. So, allowing higher plant heights and effectively maximum root depths will do a more lasting subsoiling action. Some old research down at Auburn had increased cotton yields 7 years after the rotation of bahiagrass had been destroyed as compared to subsoiling. ATTRA has some research on sorghum and the huge weigh of rootmass left for OM and soil tilth improvement from a managed crop of it.

Every time you mow you invest labor and machinery time. Be sure that what you do is more than what you have always done. The other thing that our cows and sheep have learned from the guard donkeys is to eat the fescue seedheads after drying on a late rotation. It gives about 3 weeks of grazing.

People can do whatever they care to do. I'd like to use my time doing the best thing I can that is most useful. I'm just giving a thought.


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## CrashTestRanch

Agmantoo, fescue question:

Reading _The Pasture Book_, and on page 100 they chart planting and grazing schedules for clovers, grasses and grains.

Fescue's charted grazing is listed from early October thru the following late June. Have you found this to be true? If so, what do you do from July until September?

Also listed are the planting dates, rate and DTG:
Fescue
Plant September or October
Rate/acre 10lbs
DTG 200 days

How you found this to be true?

Thanks,
Ant


----------



## silverbackMP

Ebenezer said:


> A drum type pasture renovator works on the same principle as a sheep foot roller used for compacting soil. The points will create a hardpan in the soil. And there has never been a university study that showed a benefit for renovator use.
> .


The kind I'm talking about is more of a gang of subsoilers designed to bust up a hard pan and promote draining and O2 infiltration.


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch said:


> Agmantoo, fescue question:
> 
> Reading _The Pasture Book_, and on page 100 they chart planting and grazing schedules for clovers, grasses and grains.
> 
> Fescue's charted grazing is listed from early October thru the following late June. Have you found this to be true? If so, what do you do from July until September?
> 
> Also listed are the planting dates, rate and DTG:
> Fescue
> Plant September or October
> Rate/acre 10lbs
> DTG 200 days
> 
> How you found this to be true?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ant


I do not find the information applicable to me in years when there is adequate moisture. Knowing that the fescue will go dormant as the temperatures rise I anticipate what I will be feeding from about mid July to late August or early September. I stockpile fescue twice per year. That is why I clip seed heads to prolong the fescue growing. It is mid August and I have lots of green fescue that is knee high using my methods. Other conventional producers around here are feeding hay. Rain has not been plentiful but we have had a few rains so that helps. As a rotational grazer one needs to determine how to marry the old information and guidelines with the most current information available. What works for me will vary with what works for others in different locations. The learning curve is not very forgiving either. 

Additionally, my knowing from experience that this late Summer period is more difficult than over Wintering, I also get some support in bridging the period by interplanting such grasses as crabgrass and the current experimenting with Teff.

I doubt that there was much known about rotational grazing and stockpiling when the book was written. My "The Pasture Book" was reprinted around 1950.

This is what the cattle are grazing currently.


----------



## Ebenezer

> Fescue's charted grazing is listed from early October thru the following late June. Have you found this to be true? If so, what do you do from July until September?
> 
> Also listed are the planting dates, rate and DTG:
> Fescue
> Plant September or October
> Rate/acre 10lbs
> DTG 200 days
> 
> How you found this to be true?


Ant,

I'd be curious if we are talking about the same variety of fescue between SC/NC and AZ? Are you seeing other folks there who have had success with KY31 type fescue?

The Southern Forages, third edition recommends 15 to 20 pounds drilled and 20 to 25 pounds broadcast per acre. Agman probably is in a microclimate and elevation where fescue does not go as dormant as it does when you go farther south or drop down in elevation. Agman's experiences would work well into PA and areas that retain growing stands of fescue in the summer months. It would be more return for the costs for him to mow seedheads if his fescue stays green this time of year but for much of the SE the proven decision is to have warm season forages to graze in the warm months. You can still flash graze livestock across fesuce pastures to eat weeds and stray warm season grass patches in summer but that is more to help the fescue than it is to fill their bellies.

If you graze fescue too early or too close in the first spring after planting you can stress it out when the stand has weak root systems. That's why there is a long delay to graze. Close mowing in the first spring will also set it up for damage if you get a dry spell after you mow.

Agman, what is the average elevation of your farm?


----------



## agmantoo

Ebenezer

870 to 910 feet elevation if memory is correct.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> I do not find the information applicable to me in years when there is adequate moisture. *Knowing that the fescue will go dormant as the temperatures rise I anticipate what I will be feeding from about mid July to late August or early September.* I stockpile fescue twice per year. *That is why I clip seed heads to prolong the fescue growing. It is mid August and I have lots of green fescue that is knee high using my methods.*


This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.



agmantoo said:


> As a rotational grazer one needs to determine how to marry the old information and guidelines with the most current information available. What works for me will vary with what works for others in different locations. The learning curve is not very forgiving either.


Taking all the info from past and present and marrying them to prove a system has been a learning experience. Still in the planning stages, so I take all the info I can.



agmantoo said:


> Additionally, my knowing from experience that this late Summer period is more difficult than over Wintering, I also get some support in bridging the period by interplanting such grasses as crabgrass and the current experimenting with Teff.


I had read that part a few pages back in this thread, but at the time it was all jumbled in my head, now sorting thru the info and reading more about the inter-workings of fescue and clover, I have read that others like bermuda hybrids in our area are great for summer grazing while fescue goes dormant.



agmantoo said:


> I doubt that there was much known about rotational grazing and stockpiling when the book was written. My "The Pasture Book" was reprinted around 1950.


My copy is a reprint from 1963, does have some info on rotational grazing of pigs, equine, cattle and sheep. Plus the related forages. not very detailed, more of a permanent multiple paddock setup.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Ebenezer said:


> Ant,
> I'd be curious if we are talking about the same variety of fescue between SC/NC and AZ? Are you seeing other folks there who have had success with KY31 type fescue?


Actually, we are not. The fescue I'm currently researching is Festuca arizonica (Arizona Fescue). I have not seen any of the KY31 listed in the Arizona based pasture/forage literature, doesn't mean it's not there somewhere, just not in any of the stuff from our extension office or ag college. But I will jot it down and find out. 




Ebenezer said:


> The Southern Forages, third edition recommends 15 to 20 pounds drilled and 20 to 25 pounds broadcast per acre.


Does this book cover only the south eastern forages?


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Just to add, most of my research is for elevations in the 6000-7000' AMSL. As our property up north is at these elevations. So what I find will be significantly different from a lot of folks ...


----------



## sassafras manor

Well after reading and following this thread since late last fall, i have finally taken the leap from mob grazing via a 3 pasture rotation to following the MIG approach. I had to order a new fence charger and in the process went ahead and ordered the nessecary supplies to subdivide 2 out of the 3 pastures into paddocks for our cattle. We generally do not have any more than 6 head at a time and should be able to get by with rather small areas for them. In your opinoins what would be a paddock starting size for 2 steers and 3 feeder calves? For what it is worth, these 2 pastures are approx. 150-200 fet wide with wooven wire bottom, 2 strands of barbed wire on top and an offset hot wire at 18". Also we have a couple of goats, would it be better for them to follow the cattle and eat the weeds and stems that the cattle leave behind or precede the cattle? Thanks for the input.


----------



## agmantoo

sassafras manor 

Using your new setup allocate an area for your herd that you think they will eat in 45 minutes. Put the animals in the area and observe them for the 45 minute duration. If they eat the area off in less time allocate more space. If they have not eaten the area then reduce the space. Double that area that they eat to your satisfaction and allocate that amount of space for the next days grazing and give that a try the next day. If the animals casually walk into the new area with a little excitement then they are fine. If they rush into the area they are hungry and you need to increase the area allocated. You will need to let the cattle tell you by their behavior if their needs are being met.


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

I looked at the growing zones and found that Arizona actually has 5. Which zone specifically will you be setting up your operation? 

To help determine the type if grass to plant observe the road sides and other areas near where your pasture will be for the various grasses growing. You may have to get someone at the feed stores to ID what the names are. Research these adapted grasses to see if there is merit in having them for forage. If I were to accept what is recommended to be grown where I am, I doubt that I would be able to duplicate the results I have shared here.

Realize you will not be subjecting the soil and the forages to the same stresses as your neighbors. As I stated earlier I have neighbors feeding hay and their pastures are void of forage. As for me, I am preparing my paddocks for the expected upcoming growth as we exit Summer. I took a pic as I left the area I was working today and I want to share the difference from what I described and how my place looks. Does this look like something that one would have to wait until late Fall in zone 7, according to what you read earlier, to graze? The point I am wanting to make is determine what will work for you and your area rather than what you read that may be written by someone with no dirt under their finger nails.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo said:


> I looked at the growing zones and found that Arizona actually has 5. Which zone specifically will you be setting up your operation?


USDA Hardiness Zone 5-6
Arbor Day Foundation lists the zone as 6-7



agmantoo said:


> To help determine the type if grass to plant observe the road sides and other areas near where your pasture will be for the various grasses growing. You may have to get someone at the feed stores to ID what the names are. Research these adapted grasses to see if there is merit in having them for forage. If I were to accept what is recommended to be grown where I am, I doubt that I would be able to duplicate the results I have shared here.


I had thought about grabbing some of the grasses and heading north to the ext office for i.d. There's also a feed store about 35 minutes from the property, nice girl working, maybe I'll bring some to her as well.

I've been told I couldn't grow a lot of the veggies I have growing because of our HEAT. But they grow and fruit, so I do question and try things that most folks would take at face value and quit without trying.



agmantoo said:


> Realize you will not be subjecting the soil and the forages to the same stresses as your neighbors. The point I am wanting to make is determine what will work for you and your area rather than what you read that may be written by someone with no dirt under their finger nails.


I'm finding that to be true with a lot of the university "studies", i.e. plot sizes, locations etc ...


as for your pasture picture: 
Actually that pasture looks like it will hold quite a few head right now, looks like it could be trimmed/chewed down about 3"+ 

I keep telling myself, one day, one day it'll look that great ...


----------



## ufo_chris

Well we had a little bit of rain so I pounded my powerflex post in and finished 2 small pastures . 
The poweflex post you can turn really easy and pull out,so on gently sloping land the next post 50 feet away lifts out too! I had to loosen the tension so much that I will have to tighten it every time the pvc pole is not in use.
Does anyone elses post do that? I'm not very happy with them.
Also ,3 of mine figured it out right away ,2 it took 1 week.
So in the new pasture I cut off the alley which made it so they go right in without going down the alley (they can still get in the old pasture and alley for shade and water) and they all got that right away. I figure once they are more used to it I will do it how you're supposed to.
I do have a Question:
Do you bushhog every time they are done with a paddock or only if there are a lot of weeds? 
And how low? How many days after is it ready to graze again?
Here in NE Ohio,when should I start stockpiling? Should I let the stockpile grow longer?
Thanks,
Chris


----------



## PACrofter

agmantoo said:


> Realize you will not be subjecting the soil and the forages to the same stresses as your neighbors. As I stated earlier I have neighbors feeding hay and their pastures are void of forage.


Agmantoo, nice looking grass! Almost makes me want to eat some myself. Any chance you could snap any pictures of your neighbors' places to compare with this?



agmantoo said:


> As for me, I am preparing my paddocks for the expected upcoming growth as we exit Summer. I took a pic as I left the area I was working today and I want to share the difference from what I described and how my place looks.


I notice in the picture that there were tracks in the grass. When you say that you had been working in the area, were you bushhogging the field? If so, how low do you cut in preparation for the upcoming growth? And is this primarily fescue?

Many thanks for your insight throughout this thread!


----------



## agmantoo

PACrofter

I will drive about 3/4ths of a mile and snap a pic. My immediate neighbors may get upset if they see me photographing their pastures.

Yes those are tractor tracks and I am bushhogging as high as the trail type bushhog will adjust. This effort will stop the weeds from going to seed and at this time of year I do not expect the weeds to reset seeds. With little or no weed competition and some anticipated rain the fescue (endophyte infected) should begin to rebound in two weeks or so. Where there is moisture in low areas that are partially shaded I can already observe the fescue beginning to grow. Here is what the unclipped and unattended fescue looks like at this time. This is a field of mine that was also photographed yesterday. Most probably I will lease this field to a neighboring farmer for grain production as I cannot use it easily for cattle production due to the road separating the parcels


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

Regarding the pasture pic. Yes it could be fed now. However I have taller grass and recall I always feed the tallest first. I plan on getting some growth on this paddock before putting the cattle on the forage. As I start stockpiling for Winter I need to get as much grass as tall as possible while still meeting the daily forage needs of the herd. To accomplish this I will closely allocate what forage the cattle has access to and rotate frequently. I want approximately 2/3rds of the acreage for stockpiling Winter forage and the remaining 1/3 to provide grazing from mid Sept to Dec 15th. The Sept to Dec time period will be the growth period for the fescue and clover.


----------



## PACrofter

Thanks, Agman!



agmantoo said:


> PACrofter
> 
> I will drive about 3/4ths of a mile and snap a pic. My immediate neighbors may get upset if they see me photographing their pastures.
> 
> Yes those are tractor tracks and I am bushhogging as high as the trail type bushhog will adjust. This effort will stop the weeds from going to seed and at this time of year I do not expect the weeds to reset seeds. With little or no weed competition and some anticipated rain the fescue (endophyte infected) should begin to rebound in two weeks or so. Where there is moisture in low areas that are partially shaded I can already observe the fescue beginning to grow. Here is what the unclipped and unattended fescue looks like at this time. This is a field of mine that was also photographed yesterday. Most probably I will lease this field to a neighboring farmer for grain production as I cannot use it easily for cattle production due to the road separating the parcels


----------



## trbizwiz

ufo_chris said:


> Well we had a little bit of rain so I pounded my powerflex post in and finished 2 small pastures .
> The poweflex post you can turn really easy and pull out,so on gently sloping land the next post 50 feet away lifts out too! I had to loosen the tension so much that I will have to tighten it every time the pvc pole is not in use.
> Does anyone elses post do that? I'm not very happy with them.
> Also ,3 of mine figured it out right away ,2 it took 1 week.
> So in the new pasture I cut off the alley which made it so they go right in without going down the alley (they can still get in the old pasture and alley for shade and water) and they all got that right away. I figure once they are more used to it I will do it how you're supposed to.
> I do have a Question:
> Do you bushhog every time they are done with a paddock or only if there are a lot of weeds?
> And how low? How many days after is it ready to graze again?
> Here in NE Ohio,when should I start stockpiling? Should I let the stockpile grow longer?
> Thanks,
> Chris


Chris are you driving your power flex posts in far enough? They need to go in 18 inches to 2 feet. I can pull mine out (probably not this time of year but in general) But it definitely takes some doing, and I am strong as a bear. But I have my wire strung banjo tight in some places even with elevation changes and no posts even budge not even after a heavy rain. I did struggle with my wood corner posts at first, but the power flex posts have been great. 

I measured up 18 inches on each post and put some black tape around the post. Then I used a post driver and pounded until the tape disappeared in the earth.


----------



## agmantoo

ufo_chris

To prevent the wire from pulling the posts from the ground there is a solution. You are putting the posts true vertical in the ground. Where there is a slope you need to put the post 90 degrees vertical to the slope , not true vertical . The appearance of the posts may look odd but the posts will remain in place if you do this. If the ground is at an angle like this / the post should be driven in like \ but tilted more to be at 90 degrees to the slope. left side is post \/ right side is ground slope


----------



## CrashTestRanch

page 10 of this pdf document:

BUILDING AN ELECTRIC ANTIPREDATOR FENCE , PNW 225


----------



## agmantoo

PACrofter

As per your request....

Neighboring pastures




























There are 12 heifers on 40 acres here, I share a common fence with this pasture


----------



## PACrofter

agmantoo said:


> PACrofter
> 
> As per your request....
> 
> Neighboring pastures
> 
> (snip)


Thanks, Agman. Your grass definitely looks happier!


----------



## godsgapeach

PACrofter, At this point only one of our pastures is converted from permanent pasture to rotational. There's a tremendous difference with only one rotation.

The top 2 pics are traditionally grazed (same field): 



















And here's the paddock I let the herd into yesterday--mostly bermuda, some nearly knee high. It has been in rotation once. This is the 2nd grazing:










Oh and the pasture from the first pics is just across the road where the red roofed house is.


----------



## godsgapeach

Agman, do you see any value in keeping either of these 2 bull calves for one of our other herds?



















Thanks, as always.


----------



## silverbackMP

Godsapeach, your pics aren't showing on my end. I would love to see them.

Thanks

SBMP


----------



## agmantoo

Godsgapeach

I posted a pic of this bull when he was a little older on another site to get comments on him. I thought he was OK for a 13 month old grass only grown through a stress period. The comments that I got were not favorable. Compare your two bulls to him and come to a conclusion.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

godsgapeach said:


> PACrofter, At this point only one of our pastures is converted from permanent pasture to rotational. There's a tremendous difference with only one rotation.
> 
> The top 2 pics are traditionally grazed (same field)
> And here's the paddock I let the herd into yesterday--mostly bermuda, some nearly knee high. It has been in rotation once. This is the 2nd grazing:
> 
> Oh and the pasture from the first pics is just across the road where the red roofed house is.


All I have is: *WOW* great looking pasture


----------



## PACrofter

Godsgapeach - thanks for the photos....great looking grass in the last pic! I've been moving our few cattle around, and although the difference is not as marked as yours, I can see a tremendous difference already this year. Especially when compared to the neighbors!


----------



## godsgapeach

Thanks, y'all. I'm pretty happy with the results so far. ONE day we'll get the whole thing converted, but it'll be one step at a time. Our next plan is waterlines...

And thanks, Agman. I just know these two young ones look far better than the bulls we have with the other two herds. But we're working on it.

Silverback, pm me your email address and I'll send you the pics.


----------



## ufo_chris

Thanks agmantoo &crashtestranch,I knew that from wood posts but never thought about these that way,especially on a gentle slope! I just did my last paddock this way and we'll see when I use it in a week or so. 
trbizwiz: do you have the hollow ones too? I just wonder if that has anything to do with it?
I put them in about 18" ,I'm not as strong as you (just a woman) and it is hard when it's been this dry.
Godsgapeach: looking really good! I'm hoping mine will look like this soon but it's been so dry here,not normal for Ohio at all.
When is the best time to bushhog after grazing? Right after or let it grow till the weeds get taller?How short?
Thanks Chris


----------



## CrashTestRanch

ufo_chris said:


> Thanks agmantoo &crashtestranch,I knew that from wood posts but never thought about these that way,especially on a gentle slope!


One tool which may help with the proper angle: make a 90* out of some 2x4's approximately 24" long, place the pole/stake/post against the " L " on the vertical, the horizontal will hold the slope angle and the vertical will give you the proper angle for the post


----------



## PACrofter

Godsgapeach (and others with experience or opinions) - 

In the background of your first picture above, how tall is that fence and how far apart are the wires spaced? Are they all hot? Do you think it would keep in sheep and goats? Many thanks...


----------



## godsgapeach

PACrofter, that is traditional barb wire. It's not electric. There are 5 strands 9-10 inches apart. My guess with sheep and goats would be no. I've heard the saying "If a fence won't hold water, it won't hold goats."


----------



## Ebenezer

> how tall is that fence and how far apart are the wires spaced? Are they all hot? Do you think it would keep in sheep and goats? Many thanks...


For hair sheep, you can run HT electric (measuring from the ground) 8", 14", 25" and 35" and they'll stay in. A ram in love might jump over so you can add one at 45" and mix cows and sheep to cure that problem. Not sure about wool sheep and goats.

GAPeach asked about the two bull calves. They seem to have too much loose sheath. Look more like cow maker type with the long lanky look that might mature a little later than a terminal sire type.


----------



## agmantoo

Below is an article that should be beneficial to anyone producing cattle and particular to those doing or considering rotational grazing. The broodstock is a major factor and this article gives a lot of insight.



How much is enough?

by Rick Rasby, Extension beef specialist, University of Nebraska

Calf prices appear to be strong this fall. Because of high input costs, margin of profit for the cow-calf producer will again be narrow. Producers who continue to match genetics (mature weight and level of milk production) with feed resources, environment and management system will be the ones who continue to enhance their profit potential.

Larger commercial cows

If moderation is your goal in terms of cow weight and milk production, it may be an increasing challenge to find the genetics to meet this goal. Breed sire summaries indicate the genetic trends for growth traits, carcass weight and milk production have increased over the years.

If a ranch unit
has a fixed set
of resources,
the effect of
mature cow
weight and daily milk production
can be used to determine the number of cows
at the same milk output with cows differing in mature weight that could
be managed
on the unit.
It is hard to see how milk production and mature weight of commercial cow herds has not continued to increase over time. In addition, it is hard to see how nutrient needs of the commercial cow herd haven't increased over time as well. McMurray (Feedstuffs article, 2008) suggested that average cow weight had increased 322 pounds (lb.) between 1975 and 2005. McMurray indicates that average cow weight (weight for cows at body condition score 5) in 2005 was 1,369 lb. compared to 1,047 lb. in 1975.

Nutrient needs

Maintenance feed intake is proportional to the animal's metabolic body weight. Metabolic body weight is defined as body weight to the Â¾ power (body weightÂ¾), which also describes the surface area and is representative of the active tissue mass or metabolic mass of an animal. As cow weight increases, maintenance feed intake increases because metabolic body weight increases.

Cows partition energy that they consume to body maintenance and growth, then lactation, and finally reproduction. In a low feed environment, cows with a high production potential would have limited energy left over for reproduction because they would shunt energy to maintenance and lactation and finally reproduction.

In contrast, cows with low production potential (described as lower mature weight and daily milk production) in a low feed environment in theory would be able to shunt energy to body maintenance, lactation and reproduction.

A solution to increase energy intake for high-producing cows in a low feed environment on a fixed resource base would be to reduce cow numbers (cow inventory). In a high feed environment, low-production-potential cows have enough energy to partition to maintenance, lactation, reproduction, and will likely put on condition. In this low feed environment and a fixed resource base, to limit energy intake of low-production-potential cows so they don't get over-conditioned an option would be to increase cow numbers.

If cow mature weight were fixed at 1,200 lb. and milk production varied from 10 lb. per day to 30 lb. per day, annual maintenance energy needs increase. As milk output per day increases from 10 to 20 lb. per day, annual maintenance energy needs increase by 8% [7,815 Megacalories (Mcal) per year compared to 8,427 Mcal per year]. The increase in annual maintenance energy of a 1,200-lb. mature cow producing 10 lb. of milk daily is 16% less than the same cow producing 30 lb. of milk daily.

If milk output per day were fixed at 10 lb. per day and cow mature weight changes from 1,000 lb. to 1,200 lb. or 1,400 lb., annual maintenance energy needs increase 14% going from a 1,000-lb. cow (6,803 Mcal annually) to a 1,200-lb. cow (7,728 Mcal annually). Likewise, maintenance energy needs increase 27% between a 1,000-lb. cow compared to a 1,400-lb. cow (8,637 Mcal annually).

How many cows to stock?

If a ranch unit has a fixed set of resources, the effect of mature cow weight and daily milk production can be used to determine the number of cows at the same milk output with cows differing in mature weight that could be managed on the unit.

If par were annual maintenance needs in Mcal for cows with a mature weight of 1,200 lb. and daily milk production of 20 lb., we could calculate the number of 1,400-lb. cows producing 20 lb. of milk daily on a fixed resource base. Likewise, using similar information, we could calculate the number of 1,000-lb. cows producing 20 lb. of milk daily that could be managed on the same set of resources.

If 100 head of 1,200-lb. cows producing 20 lb. of milk daily could be managed on a fixed resource base, using the annual maintenance energy needs, about 90 head of 1,400-lb. cows producing 20 lb. of milk daily or 112 head of 1,000-lb. cows could be managed on the same fixed resource base. If cows in each weight group had a weaning rate of 85%, 85 calves, 77 calves and 95 calves would be weaned from cows that weighed 1,200 lb., 1,400 lb. and 1,000 lb. respectively.

This is only part of the profit equation. Profit of an enterprise is a complex set of relationships. Net income or profit is gross income dollars generated minus total annual expenses. Gross income in a cow-calf enterprise is pounds of calf sold times price [dollars per hundredweight (cwt.)]. Pounds of calf sold is a function of weaning weight and the number of cows weaning a calf. Nutrition impacts both of those factors.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Cow/calf operation

Murray Grey, Angus, Highland
100+ head
Rotate Daily @ 1pm
allocated 1/2 - 2+ acres daily

Ear tag

3-5 days old
Left ear heifers
Right ear steers
Loop/snug head, grab left front leg, right rear leg, lift a few inches & upset onto back
Band bulls not worth breeding

Sale Barn

Sold @ 550-600 lbs.
Approximately 8-9 months old
All steers and most heifers

Breeding

Brood cows @ 1050-1100 lbs max
Bred back within 60 days
Breed @ 750 lbs. approximately 15 months
if OPEN @ 26 months: CULL


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Bulls

Grass fed
Frame 3-4
Polled
Body score 5
Small birth weight
Moderate milking
AI smaller herds for cost efficiency

Pasture

Tall Fescue
Rye
Bluegrass
Vetch
Chicory
Clovers
Pearl Millet
30% legume mix - MAX

Fertilizer

Chicken/Turkey - Layer litter preferred
Spread patties - 80/20 rule (Pareto Principal) 
Steer/Dairy
Horse
Goat, sheep
Sewage sludge - recycled
Green Manure - cover crops
Compost teas
Bokashi Em
Fish Emulsions
Pond water
Put back more than taken out
50% Solids - 45% Mineral Matter, 5% Organic Matter
50% Pore space - 25% Water, 25% Air space
CAUTION - watch SALT concentrations in any additions
check pH periodically


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Fencing

Pigtail posts - 20-30' spacing - Lowe's
Polytwine 6-9 wire SS
Extension Cord Reels - Lowe's, etc
Parmak charger - Mains, solar w/battery
Lightning arrestor
HT wire - Barkaret - 12.5GA/180k PSI, Grade 3 galv.
3/4-7/8" PVC line post - drilled on 2" centers - 60' centers
cotter pins - double looped secure to avoid hardware disease
7-1/2' PVC "V" notched "gate"
donut insulators
guardrail I beams (recycled)
Ground rods - copper/galv - per OEM charger specs - [email protected] 8'L/10' spacing approx.
Wire sleeves (crimps)
Crimper
Tpost driver
Tensioners (non-spring type)
Stafix fence compass


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Fencing cont.

6-9 HT wire predator safe eFence
Inner paddocks - single HT wire (HOT)
Sub inner paddocks - 6-9 wire SS polytwine/wire
Partition 30-80' x 300' approx.
Lanes 30-60' approx.
600-800' to water - MAX

Water, Mineral Supplement, etc.

3000-4500 gal/day approx.
Salt & Mineral supplements in same area as water
Cattle rub in same area w/water, supplements
Waterer - Ritchie CT200 - 2 hole - ball type
Stock pond - Bentonite sealed
Creek, river

Equipment

Tractor - 50hp+
Bushhog - 6' minimum
Harrow - 18' spike
Cyclone seeder - Herd GT77
Combine - pull type - Allis Chambers 66
Boom Sprayer - optional

Working cattle

Facilities
Squeeze chute
Head gate
Vet care
Tagging
Branding


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Irrigation

PTO pump - old tobacco type
20' aluminum pipe
water guns/heads
orange pods w/hose
Reel irrigation system
Nose pump
God/mother nature

Land/Property

Apply for AG use tax defferal
Soil Test using auger bit & cap, etc.
Sample 10 sites MINIMUM


----------



## ufo_chris

Hey Agman can you please tell me (I know it's in here somewhere!) how short do I mow after grazing? Can I wait till they are in the next paddock?
And what was the ideal days rotation? Was it 40? 
I'm thinking mow it down to 6" or so if it will be 40 days before they will be back but want to check.
Do you mow it every time or only iif it's weedy?
Going into winter should I not mow ?
I don't have enough to stockpile right now but they should have pasture for a few weeks into winter (well after the gras quits growing).
Thanks,Chris


----------



## Ebenezer

> Salt & Mineral supplements in same area as water


Crasher, just the exact opposite.



> Stock pond - Bentonite sealed


High dollar.



> donut insulators


Do not have life of composites.



> Steer/Dairy


How about potential of Johnes and such imported with it?


> Goat, sheep


 Same thing.


> 3-5 days old


Day old is a lot easier for you



> Frame 3-4


Be a good marketer



> Tall Fescue
> Rye
> Bluegrass
> Vetch
> Chicory
> Clovers
> Pearl Millet
> 30% legume mix - MAX


Regional 



> Combine - pull type - Allis Chambers 66
> Boom Sprayer - optional


Combine can be a good or bad. Not for everybody. Wick sprayer is easier, cheaper and more environmental friendly for a lot of weeds.

And all of this is for one location, one operator based on soils, climate, availability of machinery, supplies, etc.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

> just the exact opposite.


WHY? 



> High dollar.


Bentonite expensive?



> Do not have life of composites.


Our sun here is rough on everything composite, ie plastics etc, which are you referring to?



> How about potential of Johnes and such imported with it?


Can you expand on this? I'm not sure what "Johnes" is.
*edit- nevermind, found it: Johne's is a contagious bacterial disease of the intestinal tract, also called paratuberculosis.




> Day old is a lot easier for you


That's good to know. Thanks



> Be a good marketer


That's gonna be tough, I don't like face to face sales much 




> Regional


A lot of my notes from this thread are based for my area, I gleaned info then searched for more pertaining to Arizona hardiness.




> And all of this is for one location, one operator based on soils, climate, availability of machinery, supplies, etc.


Yup, that's why I took notes and still missed some info and data, as you filtered out for me, thanks Ebenezer


----------



## Ebenezer

> just the exact opposite.
> 
> WHY?


You concentrate their grazing area to just around the water source and minerals. Rotate the minerals out to the least grazed area(s) and they'll make more even use of pasture grazing.



> High dollar.
> 
> Bentonite expensive?


With residual soils in the basin you'll need about 3 to 5 pounds of bentonite per square foot blended into the constructed liner. Also need a cover of loose soils to decrease the occurrence of surface drying and cracking of the liner. Bentonite swells and shrinks 8 times in size difference when wet and dry so a lot of shrink/swell. So you have tons of bentonite, residual soil prep, blending, finishing and covering. Money, money, money, money!!




> Do not have life of composites.
> 
> Our sun here is rough on everything composite, ie plastics etc, which are you referring to?


The fiberglass/plastic end insulators have 25+/- year lifespan. The glass insulators work fine until they get a crack, either visible or not. Then they become energy leaker. A cow into the fence or even lightning will crack them and you'll not know.





> How about potential of Johnes and such imported with it?
> 
> Can you expand on this? I'm not sure what "Johnes" is.
> *edit- nevermind, found it: Johne's is a contagious bacterial disease of the intestinal tract, also called paratuberculosis.


Comes in the manure and can lie in the soil or on the forage for at least a year and still be viable. No cure and once you have it in the herd/flock then about 15% of the group is infected. You do a lot of testing and culling for years to try and eliminate it or you depopulate, wait at least 12 months and buy back in. Major dairy issue and growing beef issue. Sheep can carry bovine Johnes and/or ovine Johnes without symptoms. Don't know about goats. 




> Day old is a lot easier for you
> 
> That's good to know. Thanks


Unless you like to run and wrestle!!!




> Be a good marketer
> 
> That's gonna be tough, I don't like face to face sales much


The "average" market calf in the US that makes the Med and Large price bracket will be FS 5+. Smaller framed animals are great, efficient and all of that good stuff but you need to find a way to sell them other than standard livestock barn route or they'll burn your financial tail. They can actually be more profitable if you are willing to do your legwork.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

> You concentrate their grazing area to just around the water source and minerals. Rotate the minerals out to the least grazed area(s) and they'll make more even use of pasture grazing.


So, water on one side and mineral/sups on the other?



> With residual soils in the basin you'll need about 3 to 5 pounds of bentonite per square foot blended into the constructed liner. Also need a cover of loose soils to decrease the occurrence of surface drying and cracking of the liner. Bentonite swells and shrinks 8 times in size difference when wet and dry so a lot of shrink/swell. So you have tons of bentonite, residual soil prep, blending, finishing and covering. Money, money, money, money!!


Alternatives? We have 1 stock pond (swale) on the south 40, and one that is next to our property that was put in by the folks who have the open range lease in our area, they both hold water until about July/August, when the monsoons come and refill.




> The fiberglass/plastic end insulators have 25+/- year lifespan. The glass insulators work fine until they get a crack, either visible or not. Then they become energy leaker. A cow into the fence or even lightning will crack them and you'll not know.


This is a tough one for me, our sun is BRUTAL. Maybe a mix of the 2 types and see which one will last a couple summers, then change out???





> Comes in the manure and can lie in the soil or on the forage for at least a year and still be viable. No cure and once you have it in the herd/flock then about 15% of the group is infected. You do a lot of testing and culling for years to try and eliminate it or you depopulate, wait at least 12 months and buy back in. Major dairy issue and growing beef issue. Sheep can carry bovine Johnes and/or ovine Johnes without symptoms. Don't know about goats.


Maybe bring it in, and let age for a year or so then apply?




> Unless you like to run and wrestle!!!


Nope, too old for that garbage 



> The "average" market calf in the US that makes the Med and Large price bracket will be FS 5+. Smaller framed animals are great, efficient and all of that good stuff but you need to find a way to sell them other than standard livestock barn route or they'll burn your financial tail. They can actually be more profitable if you are willing to do your legwork.


So more of a direct market strategy?


----------



## Ebenezer

> So, water on one side and mineral/sups on the other?


In least grazed areas, usually 800+ feet from water.



> Alternatives? We have 1 stock pond (swale) on the south 40, and one that is next to our property that was put in by the folks who have the open range lease in our area, they both hold water until about July/August, when the monsoons come and refill.


Not sure because we are so different in climate and location. Sounds like you have water. Do you need more?




> This is a tough one for me, our sun is BRUTAL. Maybe a mix of the 2 types and see which one will last a couple summers, then change out???


Suits me.



> Maybe bring it in, and let age for a year or so then apply?


Or just stay with poultry litter.


----------



## ramiller5675

Ebenezer said:


> You concentrate their grazing area to just around the water source and minerals. Rotate the minerals out to the least grazed area(s) and they'll make more even use of pasture grazing.
> 
> 
> If you are putting in a system of centralized lanes of high-tensile that lead to the water sources like the ones being discussed in this thread, how do you propose to locate the minerals in the least grazed areas of the pasture to even out the grazing?
> 
> Are you dragging a portable mineral feeder to each new paddock and locating it in the "least grazed" portion of each day's allotted grazing before you install your temporary fence?


----------



## CrashTestRanch

My WATER figures are off ... sorry 

@ 50Â°F 6-20 gallons per head per day
@ 90Â°F 10-35 gallons per head per day

*note: these numbers are SEASONAL and do NOT reflect pasture/forage conditions...


----------



## CrashTestRanch

ramiller5675 said:


> Ebenezer said:
> 
> 
> 
> _You concentrate their grazing area to just around the water source and minerals. Rotate the minerals out to the least grazed area(s) and they'll make more even use of pasture grazing._
> 
> 
> 
> If you are putting in a system of centralized lanes of high-tensile that lead to the water sources like the ones being discussed in this thread, how do you propose to locate the minerals in the least grazed areas of the pasture to even out the grazing?
> 
> Are you dragging a portable mineral feeder to each new paddock and locating it in the "least grazed" portion of each day's allotted grazing before you install your temporary fence?
Click to expand...

*This may answer part of your question*:



> Nutrient Supplementation
> Nutritional supplementation can also be used to alter cattle distribution in the pasture.
> Supplementation sites should be placed near off-stream water sites &#8211; away from pasture
> streams &#8211; to prevent a build-up of nutrients and bacteria, which could be washed into streams
> during rainfall and runoff from melting snow. One study showed that by providing off-stream
> supplementation, it reduced the occurrence of unstable streambanks by 66 percent and also
> reduced the number of hoof prints near streambanks.
> Providing off-stream nutrient supplementation and water also has been shown to improve
> cow and calf performance. An Oregon study showed that the presence of off-stream water
> and trace mineral salt in the pasture improved calf gains by 0.31 pounds per day, when
> compared to calves on a pasture without off-stream water and a trace mineral salt source.
> The improved gain was attributed, in part, to better forage utilization.
> 
> http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/IBC08-3.pdf
> http://www.unl.edu/nac/agroforestrynotes/an29s07.pdf


----------



## ramiller5675

CrashTest, 

Did you even read my comment? The links you provide about the location of minerals in a pasture apply more to a continuous grazing situation than the rotational grazing system of moving the cattle daily being discussed in this thread.

How would you locate the minerals in the least grazed areas of the pasture to even out the grazing if your paddock is moving each day and you have a centralized lane that leads to your water source?


----------



## CrashTestRanch

ramiller5675 said:


> CrashTest,
> 
> Did you even read my comment? The links you provide about the location of minerals in a pasture apply more to a continuous grazing situation than the rotational grazing system of moving the cattle daily being discussed in this thread.
> 
> How would you locate the minerals in the least grazed areas of the pasture to even out the grazing if your paddock is moving each day and you have a centralized lane that leads to your water source?


Yes, the same techniques in those links apply to both continuous and rotational grazing pasture. They do address the issue in the first link.

Moving the supplements with the pasture is as simple as moving the pigtail posts. 

Agmantoo has a post somewhere in this cattle forum of a unit he designed that is both a rub and supplement station that is portable.


----------



## ramiller5675

I may be wrong, but I doubt if Agmantoo is moving his mineral feeder each day to the next paddock. 

Advice to locate the minerals at least 800' away from water sources doesn't apply in this discussion of using temporary polywire connected to a centralized lane of high-tensile to provide a day's worth of grazing.


----------



## agmantoo

ramiller5675 
You are not wrong. 
Placing the minerals in places where the cattle do not want to expend the energy to graze is a method that I have read that those that free range use.
My cattle eat where I put them and the mineral feeder is where it is convenient for me to fill. I do not locate the mineral feeder at the waterer or stream, instead I place it away a couple hundred feet. I do not want the cattle to lounge at the water source and make a mess.


----------



## agmantoo

ufo_chris said:


> Hey Agman can you please tell me (I know it's in here somewhere!) how short do I mow after grazing? Can I wait till they are in the next paddock?
> And what was the ideal days rotation? Was it 40?
> I'm thinking mow it down to 6" or so if it will be 40 days before they will be back but want to check.
> Do you mow it every time or only iif it's weedy?
> Going into winter should I not mow ?
> I don't have enough to stockpile right now but they should have pasture for a few weeks into winter (well after the gras quits growing).
> Thanks,Chris


Mow to where you are just clipping the ends of the forage off this time of year provided you have remaining forage. The longer the leaves are the more regrowth you will get. You want to get the weeds clipped below the seed heads as much as possible. The weeds should not return this late but if they do they should not set seed before frost. Check with your seed supplier and ask if they are familiar with Marshall ryegrass and is it adaptable to your location. If so, overseed about 20 to 25 lbs per acre. You may not get any grazing off the ryegrass this Fall but you should get some early Spring grazing. A small application of nitrogen would also give your current forage a boost if you want to spend the money. Good luck. I apologize for being so tardy with the reply. PS...keep the time between rotations to not less than approximately 6 weeks if you can. Do not graze below 3 inches if possible. These times and lengths are not chiseled in concrete.


----------



## ufo_chris

Thanks so much Agmantoo,no need to apologize. You are so helpful ,I guess some of us start to depend on you a bit!
Thanks a bunch,
Chris
PS: I have been hand tying the 180 High tensile wire for the rot. grazing. 
It's so much easier then getting the sleeves and crimper out(And I still hate that crimper!)! Thanks!


----------



## ufo_chris

I need some help in how I should advertise these 2 14 month old bulls that I thing would be perfect herd sires ,esp. for IRG. 
They are black angus x highland,and black to boot. Both parents are registered (really good lines I was told).
I figured I'll put in calving ease for sure and 2 of the best beef breeds.
What else should I put in?
I will put an ad on here but also on our local graigslist.
Maybe the Farm and Dairy paper but they charge quite a bit for an ad.
Thanks for any ideas, oh and how do you guys think they look?
Thanks,Chris
















That's Mom too,they are almost as big as her (1000 lbs or so) I would guess 800 and the smaller 750 ?


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Agmantoo,

In your rotation, you have 100+ acres correct? With 100 head, correct?

With those numbers, it seem that the cattle are in an 80 day rotation before they come back to the original spot they started in, correct?

What are the growth cycles in fescue/clover (in days)?


----------



## agmantoo

I have 120+- acres of established pasture plus ~20 acres that I have been improving plus some areas (not planted) being worked on by me. I have 92 cows, some replacement heifers that are coming 2 years old, some future herd heifers that are 1 year old, about 25 calves that will be going to market and probably 35 calves below market age/weight at this time. The cattle are not in an 80 day rotation. The rotation frequency has many variables predicated on whether the forage is dormant or rapidly growing, the availability of moisture, total headcount and size of calves. The rotation cycle on some of the pasture exceeds 150 days. I have 22 acres that I am starting to rotational graze that have not been grazed since Winter. We had a wet Spring and that created a surplus then. As you may recall I have to stockpile grass for the dry period of late July and August. We are in a drought at this time and I have been conserving feed by grazing areas, those that had some grass left, a second time. There is no rain in the forecast and I will be hard pressed to have the pastures recover if it remains dry much longer. As for the growth cycle in days that is a difficult to answer question due to my non irrigated pastures. With dry weather I may be forced to market some calves at a lesser weight than normal. Let me answer your question by saying that with good and better grass I expect to be putting on `1.5 to 1.9 lbs per day on a 500 to 550 calf. When moisture is adequate I am not bothered by the time it takes to achieve market weight. Usually I am wasting forage but cannot increase the herd size since I know I am at the carrying capacity, without hay, during trying times.


----------



## ufo_chris

Hi Guys,still waiting for an answer please.
Thanks,Chris


----------



## Ebenezer

> Hi Guys,still waiting for an answer please.
> Thanks,Chris


For sale: Two black crossbred bulls for sale from hairy mama cows. Might have good calving ease. 14 months old and around 800 pounds. $500 each or best offer.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

during those times of drought are you opening up more pasture, larger paddocks i.e. 3+ acres etc per day per move


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch
My cattle have to be fed. I allocate what I think is meets their needs satisfactorily. Being able to adjust the size of the paddocks is why I removed the partition fences and now use just the poly twine between the two long parallel runs of partition fence. IMO this has improved my efficiency significantly. To specifically answer your question. Yes, the area being allocated is larger than normal but not over an acre at this time. Previously I was allocating about 7/10 tenths of an acre. My neighbors are all on hay at this time.


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## CrashTestRanch

makes sense ... I was just wondering if you just let them "free-range" a larger paddock size when ya'll hit the drought periods ...


----------



## agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

Given the chance to free range the cattle would start selectively eating what they thought was best and waste the rest. I am entering into a forage shortage situation within weeks if it does not start raining and I am trying to reserve as much feed as I can and yet fill their stomachs with something. On hand I only have for emergency use enough stored hay for 16 days.


----------



## Gabriel

Wow, what a great thread. I've long known about rotational grazing in theory but it's wonderful to get all this detail, and especially the pic's. Thanks to everyone, even those who asked questions, as it saved me from doing so! 

This may not be the right place for this question, just tell me where to go if it is because I don't wish to hi-jack the thread. 

I'm looking for a place to start raising cattle. I hope to direct market most or all of the beef to health conscious consumers. Pastured poultry will be a sideline. I want to live in the southern part of the US as I can't stand too much cold. I'm in Texas currently and certainly don't mind staying here, but can't make it where I'm at. (It's my dads farm and I can't convince him to farm like this.) So, with those basic requirements... make a pitch for the area you like! I'd be a good neighbor, I promise.  Even if you don't have a specific area to recommend, perhaps you have some criteria that you've come up with to share.


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## Ebenezer

Find a place within easy driving distance of a city that will buy your products.


----------



## Gabriel

> Alternatives? (To the bentonite question)


Pigs. They've sealed several tanks for me. 



> Find a place within easy driving distance of a city that will buy your products.


Indeed, pretty much every book I've read on the subject says that. What I was more interested in was -


Average rainfall recommended for pasturage, does your area have it?
Price of land, either leased or preferably for sale.
Is the area receptive to products perceived as being healthy/alternative?
Climate in general, although I already addressed this by saying "south".


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Gabriel said:


> Pigs. They've sealed several tanks for me.


 ????

How?


----------



## Karin L

Agman, what do you do about low spots that aren't really riparian areas and yet kinda are? I'm talking about areas that generally have more moisture than other spots yet aren't spots that have water for most of the year, only during the spring after having lots of snow or when we get heavy rainfall.

Just wondering as I have several areas on the farm that are low spots that are a concern as far as hoof action, trampling and pugging is concerned.

Oh and my second question is what do you do to avoid excess pugging in the spring? Do you just move them around faster and sooner than usual?

Thanks.


----------



## agmantoo

Karin L

These wet low depressions have been eradicated on my place over time. I have installed "blind" ditches on some of them to where they drain. On others I opened ditches and/or installed grass waterways. I have an old earth moving machine and in some instances totally eliminated these "pockets". The farm I have was an old rundown cotton farm that only had a few acres level enough for row crops back when folks plowed. Over 50 years of the previous owner trying to make a living, the place nearly eroded away. Currently I am working on one of the last and roughest hillsides. This hillside is so steep that the rotary cutter will not track behind the tractor.

Pugging is more of a Winter problem here than a Spring one. The frost depth is only 6 inches. The ground will freeze and thaw numerous times in a cold Winter. Since I am having the cattle to graze stockpiled forage I try to limit the time they are on an area and I also reserve some of the hillsides that do not get as wet for such times as the ground is about rotten. In early Spring as soon as the ground will permit a tractor on it without making ruts, I first broadcast grass seed on the damaged areas and pull the drag harrow. A nice thing about fescue is that I can plant it in the Fall or the Spring.


----------



## Gabriel

CrashTestRanch said:


> ????
> 
> How?


Pigs love to wallow in mud. Buy two (they seem to be very "social" animals) feeder pigs and fence them in around the tank. Give them plenty of room to get out of course. The water level will naturally be at the level of the leak, no need to worry about that. If they seem to be hanging out at only one side, scatter corn where they're not going. I've seen them dig a wallow and seal it next to their water trough in a pasture. I assure you, it's a lot cheaper than bentonite. Even if you don't eat pork, you can sell them when you're done with them, any loss is just what it cost you to seal the tank. 

Karin L, if your layout allows it, perhaps you can bypass those areas when they're too wet to be on. We have a pasture like what you describe, of course, they don't listen to me and let them in there all the time... :huh:


----------



## Karin L

That's interesting, agman, thanks.

Gabriel, that's what I was thinking. Either bypass those areas that get water-logged until they dry up, and possibly to prevent the pugging concerns in the spring, just move them faster, or make it so that they don't graze 70% of the forage in one time, but rather 30% or 40%. Spring growth is a concern anyway because if you have them on one area where the grass is starting to come back, you could hurt the grasses if you graze them too soon.

Anyway, thanks.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Gabriel said:


> Pigs love to wallow in mud. Buy two (they seem to be very "social" animals) feeder pigs and fence them in around the tank. Give them plenty of room to get out of course. The water level will naturally be at the level of the leak, no need to worry about that. If they seem to be hanging out at only one side, scatter corn where they're not going. I've seen them dig a wallow and seal it next to their water trough in a pasture. I assure you, it's a lot cheaper than bentonite. Even if you don't eat pork, you can sell them when you're done with them, any loss is just what it cost you to seal the tank.


Are there any diseases that can be passed onto the cattle using this method?

Should someone wait X amount of time before they allow their cattle to use the tank?


----------



## agmantoo

Karin L

Here is my current project I mentioned. I am moving the drain away from the steep bank on the left side of the pic. At the lone tree there is a sheer drop off of maybe 10 feet and about 150 ft long. You can see on the left side of the machine an area where water accumulates also. My plans are to "borrow" more dirt from the right side of the ditch I cut and to use that dirt to also change the angle of the left hillside. Near the machine I have already shaved the knoll some. It is my intent to end with an improved hillside that I can safely mow, a mini meadow that will grow grass and a lasting drain that will actually drain.


----------



## Karin L

That looks like a lot of work. Thank goodness the hills around here aren't as steep as what you have to deal with, since it is good crop-raising land. Do you get that contracted done or do you do it yourself?


----------



## agmantoo

I wear all the hats and do all the work.


----------



## SteveO

agmantoo
You mentioned you have 16 days of hay stored. The computer says over 60 1000#rolls. Do you rotate them to? How long can you leave it before it has no nutritional value?
I have a drainage gully 12 ft wide 5-8ft deep and 200ft long but no hills to steal from any suggestions??
Steve


----------



## agmantoo

SteveO

The emergency hay I have is old but is stored in the dry. The nutritional value certainly would be low but it would get me by until I either got purchased hay delivered or downsized the herd significantly.
I am a strong believer that the land a person owns is worth improving. The owner is already paying the tax on the land and that land has some financial value but with little or no return. In the case of your drainage gully, it currently is a liability or a very low value asset that downgrades the financial worth of the rest of your acreage. Not that you are going to sell the place but you could enhance all the high end acres and boost the overall value of the farm by reworking the gully into a grassed waterway. At the same time you will be able put the fences where you want them rather than where the gully dictates. In stead of having a dangerous area to work around you could have a productive area to graze and to service the farm.

Grassed waterway that I put in last year


----------



## CrashTestRanch

one day agmantoo, one day we'll be there ... that is BEAUTIFUL pasture ..


----------



## Gabriel

CrashTestRanch said:


> Are there any diseases that can be passed onto the cattle using this method?
> 
> Should someone wait X amount of time before they allow their cattle to use the tank?


Both good questions. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to either one. 

Good looking pasture, Agmantoo. I know you said you get an average of 42" per year, what have you gotten this year so far?


----------



## trbizwiz

Wow, what golf course did you say this was?......I am actually salivating right now. That is gorgeous pasture!!!!!







agmantoo said:


> SteveO
> 
> The emergency hay I have is old but is stored in the dry. The nutritional value certainly would be low but it would get me by until I either got purchased hay delivered or downsized the herd significantly.
> I am a strong believer that the land a person owns is worth improving. The owner is already paying the tax on the land and that land has some financial value but with little or no return. In the case of your drainage gully, it currently is a liability or a very low value asset that downgrades the financial worth of the rest of your acreage. Not that you are going to sell the place but you could enhance all the high end acres and boost the overall value of the farm by reworking the gully into a grassed waterway. At the same time you will be able put the fences where you want them rather than where the gully dictates. In stead of having a dangerous area to work around you could have a productive area to graze and to service the farm.
> 
> Grassed waterway that I put in last year


----------



## ufo_chris

I can't find the marhall ryegrass anywhere and I have called everywhere I can think of!
Of course the guy at TSC told me this is not the season to plant it and then asked someone else and then came back and told me 'as I told you this is not the season' and I said 'as I told you this is the season and if you don't know that then you should not be working here!"
Anyways....the one feed store told me around here September through Oct. is usually the season here but they only had a pasture mix (tall fescue,orchard,timothy and rye(not mashall) for $60 a 50 lb bag!
Is this stuff not common in Ohio?
Plus it's still bonedry here. It has rained about 1'' a month so if it stays that dry will I waste it?
Thanks,Chris


----------



## agmantoo

ufo_chris

Do Southern States ag stores exist in you area? If so, they should be able to get the Marshall Ryegrass. I paid $26 a bag for 50lbs. I will try to locate a source where you can order. If I had an inch of rain I would have sown some of my seed already. I have not had any rain since the first week of Aug.

This should be the source to local the nearest dealer. Smith Seed Service 800-826-6327


----------



## trbizwiz

Well this is a little off topic, but since it is seed planting time, here is what I have been working on
here is another link to part I
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIIlzqe87cI[/ame]

Here is the link to part II
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk568BTkTvg[/ame]

Back in February I wrote for a grant from the DNR of Missouri to buy this drill. Actually first last fall I tried very hard to rent one. No one within a few hundred miles had anything like it. All the drills here for rent are huge and need giant tractors. With my set up I would just be turning around all the time. I researched and I found info about this drill from the Iowa white tail board. Then I tried to get my local soil and water conservation to buy one (they are the guys that rent the big drills). That did not work so I tried to get MFA, and a few seed stores to buy one for rent. No one would even consider that. So I started looking for grants, and I finally found one and after months of work, I got the grant and I now own the drill. 
I have planted most of my 4 acres. I am Grazing that last bit of my summer stock pile, and I'll plant that. I am also building a small 12X20 barn in my wide lane with water in it, so I only have half of that lane planted. The barn materials are laying all ofer that lane so there is little open ground to plant right now. 
I planted one lane of alfalfa, and cool grazer rye grain, and the rest is planted in a deer plot mix. I figured the deer plot mix should be great for the cows. It has bob oats, and winter peas, red clover, and alfalfa, 2 types of brassicas, and some other stuff I don't even remember. I planted at 25% of recommended rate. I don't want to out compete my current forage, I just wanted to add to the forage some more energy and protein.
I am anxious to see if I get improvement this year. 
I planted perpendicular to the fall of the land, so I am hoping to get a "key-line" effect as well, enabling me to store more of the rainfall instead of shedding it.
This drill does cut rows, but it doesn't plant rows. It slices the ground open every 3 inches or so, but it mounds up the soil as it slices, they it drops the seed evenly over the planting path then uses tines to mix the soil and seed. It does not till the ground. everything I have planted still has healthy green grass growing, but you can see where the ground is sliced open.
Let me know what you guys think. I am pretty excited about the prospects.


----------



## agmantoo

trbizwiz

I have a large sod drill that appears to be nothing more than a large replica or vice versa of the small drill in the link. I cannot plant very small seed intermixed with large seed and get a uniform distribution of the seed. The movement of the drill over irregular ground causes the small seed to filter down through the larger seed and the drill then plants the small seed first. Have you found this to be true?


----------



## SuperDog

. So I started looking for grants said:


> Amazing what our tax dollars go to.


----------



## Ebenezer

> Are there any diseases that can be passed onto the cattle using this method?
> 
> Should someone wait X amount of time before they allow their cattle to use the tank?


If hogs are unvaccinated the cattle might pick up lepto (brataslavia strain). Time to wait would depend on the amount or residual manure, dilution and concentration of N in the pond when it fills.


----------



## CrashTestRanch

Ebenezer said:


> If hogs are unvaccinated the cattle might pick up lepto (brataslavia strain). Time to wait would depend on the amount or residual manure, dilution and concentration of N in the pond when it fills.


Is there anything we could add to the stock pond to help curb possible transmission of the lepto, possibly killing off any other virus/bacteria?


----------



## Ebenezer

> I have a large sod drill that appears to be nothing more than a large replica or vice versa of the small drill in the link. I cannot plant very small seed intermixed with large seed and get a uniform distribution of the seed. The movement of the drill over irregular ground causes the small seed to filter down through the larger seed and the drill then plants the small seed first. Have you found this to be true?


tr will not have the problem with his new drill that is in the video. His has a small seed box and a conventional seed box.



> Is there anything we could add to the stock pond to help curb possible transmission of the lepto, possibly killing off any other virus/bacteria?


Vaccinate the hogs. Sunshine and time will help with other ills. Not sure that you want to afford a clorine treatment nor would I advise it from an environmental sideview.


----------



## trbizwiz

I just bought it a few weeks ago and this is my first planting. However, it does have a legume box so if you don't buy premixes that will help, just put the smaller seed in the legume box. Now with the premixes it does have mixing paddles on the auger for the seed drop. The paddles are in very close tolerance to the seed drop auger (which look like fat little saw blades). the paddles churn the seed mixture and keep it "fluffed up" to the eye the seed seems to have a consistent mix throughout the planting process. It will be interesting to see when the plants come up just how even it does distribute. I am quite excited about it's potential. It is slower than broadcast spreading, but with the cost of seed it's nice to know it has good soil contact and mulch. I also have a very thick layer of top soil, so its nice to break the top of the hard pant and work a little organic matter and air deeper into the top layer. I think this will help me to build much healthier soil over the longer term.
My deer plot mix was a little pricey this year because it had higher ratios of legumes, but next year I should be able to plant all my winter annuals for under $75, that's less than a third of what I spent this year. but I will only need the expensive seed every third year or so.
This thing also has a receiver on the back so I could pull a culti-packer, harrow, or sprayer, or even the broadcast spreader with fertilizer. that will further enable me to speed up planting. I am thinking about putting down some low nitrogen high P & K fertilizer to boost the alfalfa. I haven't done a soil test in a while, but It seems like I was a little low the last time. 
Ah I found it, I love my iPhone. I saved this email form a few years ago. March 21, 2008h 5.1, phos 4lbs per acre, pot 54 lbs per acre, calcium 1536 lbs per acre, mag 194 lbs per acre, organic matter 1.9%, neutr. Acidity 305 meq, CEC: 802 meq.
Now I did apply about 2000 lbs of high mag lime this spring, also this soil test included some mostly clay dirt from my front yard. At the time I was going to turn my whole 5 acres into lawn. There is only one spot with clay in my pasture and that is where I had the excavator remove top soil and put clay down for a possible future road (bad decision, but live and learn) so this sample included probably 25% red Missouri clay. My hand ph tester gives my a ph of a little over 6 anywhere I put it in the black top soil I am guessing all the values are a little better than what I have posted here. I'll try to get another soil sample sent off to MU. would it be best to wait until next spring as this one was done in the spring, or should I send it off now. IT takes them several weeks to get back the results.



agmantoo said:


> trbizwiz
> 
> I have a large sod drill that appears to be nothing more than a large replica or vice versa of the small drill in the link. I cannot plant very small seed intermixed with large seed and get a uniform distribution of the seed. The movement of the drill over irregular ground causes the small seed to filter down through the larger seed and the drill then plants the small seed first. Have you found this to be true?


----------



## trbizwiz

SuperDog said:


> Amazing what our tax dollars go to.


Yes I agree, however I paid in about $18K in federal taxes last year so the government is still ahead. I want to keep as much of the money that I work, sacrifice, and risk, to earn. If it means I have to do it through writing for grants, well God gave me specific talents, so I'll use them to my advantage. I would for go any write offs, or free federal grant money for a flat tax or "fair tax". That ain't ever gonna happen, so be creative.


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## CrashTestRanch

agmantoo, with the black angus bull and your murray grey heifers, are they throwing all black all the time?


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## ThunderLaneFarm

All I can say is wow....I just finished this thread after starting reading about 7-8 days ago.... what an education.... I'd say it's probably worth a couple thousand dollars or more of college education at the very least. This should be required reading for anyone wanting to start rotational grazing of cattle. I'm a bit depressed that I'm done with it though, because it was so interesting, that I could hardly wait to start reading every evening..... I think I'll start at the first and read it again and see what I missed the first time!! 

Agmantoo, you have a super nice piece of property and a great system.....I think that everyone that has read this thread is a bit envious, and rightly so. I hope everyone appreciates the amount of time and effort that you have put into your pastures over the last 15+ years or so. But as your signature says.... "If they can do it....you know you can", and I really believe that we can all emulate your success with some time and some hard work. I'm sure it has been a labor of love however for you and you should be very proud of your accomplishment.

I just have a couple questions..... I'm working on renovating some old pastures, and doing some clearing and some new seeding. I ordered a Herd Seeder and it's a very nice little unit. It would be helpful for me to know what you spread thru yours, and the settings that you use. I'm sure you're spreading fescue, clover and marshall ryegrass. Of course this seeder spreads different rates per acre depending on the settings and the speed of the ATV.... Just trying to get an idea of your seeding rates and machine settings on new ground and existing re-seeding.

By the look of that last picture you posted with the beautiful grassed waterway, it looks like that grass was drilled instead of broadcasted as some rows are visible. 

Just some general guidelines about your seeding rates and speeds with the various forages you're working with would be very helpful.

It's really interesting that since I've been reading the last few months on sustainable agriculture, rotational grazing and grass growing, that I've been looking at other pastures and am able to see how terrible many look. It would truly be amazing what could be accomplished with forage growth and quality if everyone learned these methods.

You all should really be proud of this thread and what you've all accomplished here. It is truly something special

Thanks

Lee


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## Gabriel

Thunderlanefarm, welcome to the site! 

What seed you spread is dependent, for the most part, on where you're located. So, give some more details for the best possible help.


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## PACrofter

trbizwiz said:


> Well this is a little off topic, but since it is seed planting time, here is what I have been working on
> here is another link to part I
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIIlzqe87cI
> 
> Here is the link to part II
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk568BTkTvg
> 
> Back in February I wrote for a grant from the DNR of Missouri to buy this drill. Actually first last fall I tried very hard to rent one. No one within a few hundred miles had anything like it. All the drills here for rent are huge and need giant tractors. With my set up I would just be turning around all the time. I researched and I found info about this drill from the Iowa white tail board. Then I tried to get my local soil and water conservation to buy one (they are the guys that rent the big drills). That did not work so I tried to get MFA, and a few seed stores to buy one for rent. No one would even consider that. So I started looking for grants, and I finally found one and after months of work, I got the grant and I now own the drill.
> I have planted most of my 4 acres. I am Grazing that last bit of my summer stock pile, and I'll plant that. I am also building a small 12X20 barn in my wide lane with water in it, so I only have half of that lane planted. The barn materials are laying all ofer that lane so there is little open ground to plant right now.
> I planted one lane of alfalfa, and cool grazer rye grain, and the rest is planted in a deer plot mix. I figured the deer plot mix should be great for the cows. It has bob oats, and winter peas, red clover, and alfalfa, 2 types of brassicas, and some other stuff I don't even remember. I planted at 25% of recommended rate. I don't want to out compete my current forage, I just wanted to add to the forage some more energy and protein.
> I am anxious to see if I get improvement this year.
> I planted perpendicular to the fall of the land, so I am hoping to get a "key-line" effect as well, enabling me to store more of the rainfall instead of shedding it.
> This drill does cut rows, but it doesn't plant rows. It slices the ground open every 3 inches or so, but it mounds up the soil as it slices, they it drops the seed evenly over the planting path then uses tines to mix the soil and seed. It does not till the ground. everything I have planted still has healthy green grass growing, but you can see where the ground is sliced open.
> Let me know what you guys think. I am pretty excited about the prospects.


Trbizwiz, how much do these drills cost? The website doesn't seem to carry that information (which is always a danger sign to me - "if you can't ask, you can't afford").


----------



## ThunderLaneFarm

Gabriel said:


> Thunderlanefarm, welcome to the site!
> 
> What seed you spread is dependent, for the most part, on where you're located. So, give some more details for the best possible help.


I'm in North Arkansas....what many would call the Transition Zone.... Our weather would be similar to Agman's North Carolina, except it probably gets just a bit hotter in the summer. We have around 42 inches of rain per year AVG.... We can grow fescue in the spring and fall, and it would do pretty good in the early winter, but it goes dormant in the Summer of course. Bermuda does well in the heat of the summer and early fall. I think I can figure out what to plant.....just would like to know the amounts to use per acre when new ground is started and when overseeding is done. I am liming now....our soil is pretty acidic, (too many pine trees that we're currently taking out) It averages about 5.5-5.7 in soil tests. It may take a couple years to get the PH up to the 6.5 range which I guess would be a good number.


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## agmantoo

ThunderLaneFarm

Welcome to the site!
I did not like the adjustment device on the Herd seeder. I was never able to fine tune the delivery of very small seed so I modified the setting method. I believer there is a pic somewhere in the rotational grazing sticky. If you cannot locate it I will repost. I tried using different size drill bits as well as feeler gauges but was never able to get the settings controlled to my satisfaction. To overcome the problem I finally mounted a micrometer on the seeder. The micrometer works great and I can repeatedly reset the seeder to a previous setting or can fine tune the setting if the seed size is different than the ones planted previously.
I can tell you how to determine what you are distributing but cannot tell you how to set the seeder in minute adjustments. To see what you are sowing will waste seed but it is worthwhile. Cut 5 pieces of cardboard 12 inches square. Predetermine what speed you are going to operate the ATV (gear and throttle position or by speedometer) Using your best guess as to the width you think the seeder will distribute the seed, place the cardboard flat on the ground. Set you speed and drive toward the center cardboard and straddle it. As you near the cardboards, with the seeder running, open the feed gate and then drive over the center cardboard and then close the feedgate after crossing the cardboards. Go to the card boards and count the seed on the cardboards. Each of the 3 center cardboards should have approximately the same number of seed. Each outer board should have about 1/2 the number of seed. You will have to adjust the 2 outer cardboards in or out based on how far the seed are being distributed. Once the get the cardboard width dimensions set it is then time to set the amount of seed. Get the seed count per lb of the type seed you are sowing. Do the math and multiply the seed per lb times the lbs per acre. By trial and error adjust the feedgate on the seeder to where the the 3 center cardboards average close to what you are trying to accomplish as the number of seed per square ft. If the germination on the seed bag states that the germ is 85% then add more seed per square ft to get the rate set using viable seed. The reason for the two outer cardboard plates to be set at 1/2 rate is that you will lap the application to avoid any gaps as you broadcast. To kind of average things out, I sometimes put out 1/2 rate the first time I sow the area and then I run perpendicular to the first application and put out a second application.


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## trbizwiz

PACrofter said:


> Trbizwiz, how much do these drills cost? The website doesn't seem to carry that information (which is always a danger sign to me - "if you can't ask, you can't afford").



the dew drop drill was $6500


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## PACrofter

trbizwiz said:


> the dew drop drill was $6500


Thanks, trbizwiz.


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## trbizwiz

Delivery would be extra. I just drove up to council bluffs IA to meet him it was about a 6 hour drive each way. I am guessing I could have had it shipped via youship.com for 3 to 4 hundred dollars just about anywhere in the country.


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## godsgapeach

Just catching up on the last few pages of posts after about a month's absence here. 
(That and for some crazy reason I'm not getting the email updates from HT when a new post is made...)

We went on vacation and I had a fill-in that moved the cows for me (I'd set up all the braid for the week before I left--all that had to be done was take down the previous one), but I just this week got the herd back on track. They were made to wait to move and got impatient, so they "moved themselves"--or many of them did. They would either mow over or pull up the pigtails and drop the braid. Now they're back in line.

I've got our solar charger, but it's not installed yet--that'll be up and running in the next week. Agman, can you post a pic of how yours is mounted if you have one handy?

Our next move is to run the waterlines, so we're prepping for that. Waiting on some FSA tie up, and then we'll be ditchwitching...

Hope everyone else is well!


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## agmantoo

Hi!

Hope you enjoyed the vacation. Surely it is not as dry there as it is here. I can hardy get the pigtail posts into the ground.

Here is a frontal view of the solar charger. I do not have a pic of the back side of the fixture I made to hold the charger but will make one within the next few days. What type of posts do you plan on using to secure the solar charger. Will you need any help in designing a fixture? As you know I like the ParMak chargers but I have to admit the solar charger is aggravating to mount if you are moving it frequently. I like the flexibility of being able to orient the solar panel and I like the unit high enough to where the cattle cannot damage the unit.


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## ufo_chris

agmantoo said:


> ufo_chris
> 
> Do Southern States ag stores exist in you area? If so, they should be able to get the Marshall Ryegrass. I paid $26 a bag for 50lbs. I will try to locate a source where you can order. If I had an inch of rain I would have sown some of my seed already. I have not had any rain since the first week of Aug.
> 
> This should be the source to local the nearest dealer. Smith Seed Service 800-826-6327


Thanks so much Agman! I will call Monday since I just read this now(Fr.night).
So I should be able to get it around here?
And no, no Southern states ag stores,they must really be southern,never heard of them!
It is bone dry here also,it was supposed to rain today but it sprinkled just a tad,basically nothing.
We have had about an inch every Month since June ,which is nothing around here.
Thanks for getting me to use the pigtails also,would not get anything else in the ground right now !
Thanks so much,I'll let you know if I find some of the Rye.
Chris


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## ArmyDoc

ufo_Chris,

Southern States is a co-op of many stores, as I understand it. Here's their web site: www.southerstates.com And here's a link to their stores near lisbon: http://www.southernstates.com/store...ress=lisbon, OH&SearchType=storelocator&Num=5


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## ArmyDoc

Godsgapeach,

Welcome back, and hope you had a good vacation. After 4 months and many starts and stops, we finally closed on our property yesterday evening...now the real work begins.


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## godsgapeach

That's great news, ArmyDoc! Congratulations!

Thanks, Agman. I would like to see the back view whenever you have time, but this definitely helps. I couldn't remember exactly what yours looked like, but you jogged my memory.

The charger will be set up on the lane aside a wood post. It is the Parmak and as I'm short and it is heavy, I hope to have 4 stations to rotate it to--at the corners of 2 adjacent paddocks. We'll see if that's a workable plan... Oh and where do you get your alligator clips? Parts store?

The last rain we got here was Sept 11 (If anybody's already seen this I just realized I put Aug 11 instead of Sept--sorry) and that was a gullywasher. I'd just gotten home from vacation and went out to "give" the herd the next plot that they'd pretty much already taken and the bottom fell out. I think we got almost an inch. But before that it had been 2 weeks since a drop fell. So yes, we're bone dry too. I'm hopeful that the system that they're promising comes in tonight and gives us and you a good soak!


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## Gabriel

ArmyDoc said:


> After 4 months and many starts and stops, we finally closed on our property yesterday evening...now the real work begins.


:goodjob: How many acres did you get, and how's the layout? (Please pardon my nosiness.)


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## ArmyDoc

Gabriel said:


> :goodjob: How many acres did you get, and how's the layout? (Please pardon my nosiness.)


188 acres in planted pine timber of various ages. I posted some pictures a while back here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=356603&highlight=armydoc 

Tenetively, I plan to start with the back and convert about 20 acres to silvo-pasture. The idea is to gradually create a sustainable timber/cattle system. You can read more about the silvo-pasture concept here: http://www.silvopasture.org/

It won't be as efficient at timber production as pure timber, nor as efficient at cattle as pure pasture. But the idea is that you get good timber sales of higher quality timber every 5 to 10 years with cash flow from cattle in between. Since I don't have the option of going with a conventional pasture system from the get-go anyhow, I thought I'd give it a try. If it doesn't work out, I'll continue to convert to a more conventional pasture based program in the back, and leave the front in pure timber.

I'm meeting with the forester in 2 weeks to develop a management plan. It's definitely going to be a life project.


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## godsgapeach

Sounds like a lot of hard work, ArmyDoc, but it will be worth it. When everybody else is giving you grief, you can go hang out with the herd. They make pretty good companions, at least in my humble opinion. Of course there will be some days that they'll give you fits too.


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## godsgapeach

Agman do you have any history with armyworms? Apparently they're on the way toward me, which is not good news for the bermuda...

http://ugatcext.blogspot.com/2010/09/armyworms-march-across-georgia-lawns.html

http://www.11alive.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=151381&provider=top


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## CrashTestRanch

Armydoc, I've seen some of that silvo-pasture (forest forage) setups about an hour west of us ... neat concept and solution ...


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## agmantoo

Regarding the solar charger holder. The first pic is the back side of the charger. As you can see it is just a short piece of angle iron welded cross ways on a pipe. The angle iron has two screws located so that the holes punched by the manufacturer in the back of the charger match and the charger is placed over the screw heads. The screws are welded to the angle iron. The pipe has a spike in the bottom end.









The second pic is the adapter I made to hold the pipe to my metal posts. Your adapter will have to be different for the wood posts but you will want to be able to rotate the vertical pipe to align for solar collection. 











The third pic is the clamp I modified. I use stranded copper wire and strip the end of insulation for about an inch. I tie a knot in the wire after inserting the wire through the handle. This is a cheap plastic clamp bought at Big Lots for cheap and it hold up good. The alligator clamps your asked about failed due to poor materials. They were bought from Kencove and were expensive IMO. To use the clamps I just sandwich the exposed bare stranded wire to the fence wire and clamp the two wires together.


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## ufo_chris

ArmyDoc said:


> ufo_Chris,
> 
> Southern States is a co-op of many stores, as I understand it. Here's their web site: www.southerstates.com And here's a link to their stores near lisbon: http://www.southernstates.com/store...ress=lisbon, OH&SearchType=storelocator&Num=5


Thanks so much Armydoc.
I actually called a couple of the stores that are on the list a few days ago and nothing! I will call the other ones on Monday though!
Thanks so much for your help,
Chris


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## ufo_chris

Oh yeah ,I think most of us need to get together for a 'raindance'!
I'm having a really hard time even with the pigtails now!
Chris


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## anvoj

I wish I could have sent you guys some of the rain we've been getting. Wettest year in a really long time. I had hoped to get my wooded pastures limed, even had access to free lime (including the trucking) but it's been too sloppy out there. Hope you get some soon.


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## trbizwiz

Yes, we did not get any rain for half of July all of august, and the first week of September, but we have had several inches over the last few inches. My pasture is recovering nicely, finally. I was worried at first nothing seemed to recover but weeds and some of the fescue. The clovers and brooms started recovering this week.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Agman. I can see the first pic but not the 2 others--it says they've been deleted or moved from photobucket. But I've got the idea.

I had a few of the alligator clamp jumpers from Kencove--still have actually and they're ok, but I was thinking more jumper cable clamps from the auto parts store. I'd forgotten that you mentioned Big Lots before.

Is the 2nd pic (what holds the pipe to your metal posts) in the front view of your solar charger several posts ago?

Hope you're getting some rain. We got a big .05 an inch last night, but it's cloudy and there's supposedly a 100% chance today, and it's thundering a little. Here's hoping...


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach
I fixed the pics.
Yes we are getting some rain and none too soon. I was approaching the desperate range. I will have to be very careful feeding for a week or so until I get some regrowth just to get by.


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## ufo_chris

anvoj said:


> I wish I could have sent you guys some of the rain we've been getting. Wettest year in a really long time. I had hoped to get my wooded pastures limed, even had access to free lime (including the trucking) but it's been too sloppy out there. Hope you get some soon.


Thanks for that! It might be coming...they say in a couple of days,it's just the last few times they said that it did not happen!
Thanks .Chris


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## godsgapeach

Thanks again, Agman! I remembered that clamp for the pipe to metal post better than I thought. But when I was there I didn't pay any attention to how you'd rigged the charger to the pipe. There were just too many things to see. This helps tremendously!

We have had some good consistent rain--that started shortly after I posted--throughout the afternoon and evening. It's still raining lightly now. 

Hopefully we'll all get a good thorough soaking. We were beginning to get some browning on the bermuda and no growth of fall fescue since it was so dry--and the herd hasn't been so happy with their new grazing. We'd never make it on fescue alone!

I keep forgetting to ask... do you ground the solar charger? And if so, how, if you're moving it from time to time? Thanks!


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## agmantoo

Godsgapeach,

I ground the charger to the metal posts that I use. Since you are going to use only 4 places to locate the charger I suggest you drive a ground rod at each posts and affix the charger ground to that. In the future, before installing the post, I suggest that you do as the power company and staple a heavy ground wire to the bottom of the posts and then run the wire up the post to serve as a ground.

Just in case your cattle think they had it bad post a pic of this in the pasture and show them what it looks like when you have no rain for the bulk of Aug and Sept.









Your fescue will become more resistant to stress as your pasture nutrients build and you will become more experienced on making the fescue perform over time so do not write it off. You may want to sow some crabgrass in with your other forages to help through the hot dry periods. Here is the last of my stockpiled fescue for late Summer feeding that the cattle are grazing now. PS.....fortunately we are getting rain at this time!









The jersey/holstein steer is the calf born around mid Nov and has been only on grass its entire lifetime.


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## trbizwiz

Is the Jersey steer a Bronco's fan or something? He has a horse head tattoo.


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## godsgapeach

Wow, Agman. You weren't kidding about being dry. We had 4.5 inches earlier today but we had another storm come through this evening. We'll take it!

I took a few pics today. This one is just before I moved them. (And yes, the dark green you see in the background is persimmon trees.)










And these 2 are after


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## ufo_chris

Yippie,we finally got some rain too! Not 4 1/2 inches though! WOW!
Maybe a little over 1 " but it was a slower rain ,dreary and colder, so it had time to soak in a bit.
Of course it's kinda late for the pastures here to recoup enough to have a good stand for winter  but who knows ,maybe we'll have a late ,long indian summer!
Chris


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## godsgapeach

I sure hope so, Chris. Having so much rain so fast, we had quite a bit of runoff, and then when the storm came through that night (only another .4 of rain but lots of wind), we lost a few trees. Daddy also had some tin blow off the roof of one chicken house. It was pretty rough. But it was bringing in the cooler air because the temp dropped at least 20 degrees in about 10 minutes.


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## ArmyDoc

Godsgapeach,

Hope everyone is ok. We didn't get much rain here - just the fringes I guess. But it was enough to drop the temps in to the 70-80s from 90s just a few days ago.


----------



## ArmyDoc

If anyone is interested, I posted a bit on my initial plans for the land here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=356603&page=2

My goal is to try to integrate the timber management into a MIG cattle program. The key will be using what Agmantoo has taught us. Without that, I don't think it would work. Hopefully it will set up a positive cashflow from the cattle, supplemented by the timber every few years.


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## godsgapeach

We're all good, ArmyDoc. Some friends had some near misses, but it's all material damage--nobody and no animals injured.

I read through your plan, too. I'm excited to see you get started. And we'll be here to cheer you through it!


----------



## ufo_chris

Godsgapeach,I'm glad everybody is ok, that sounds scary ,20 degrees in 10 minutes ,I would have been real scared that something really bad was coming, so glad it didn't!
Our temps dropped about 20 degrees but over 12-24 hrs!
It has not rained since.....
Chris


----------



## ufo_chris

Forgot to update ,but I called just about all the stores on the list and nothing. 
The guy at one store(Millstone) was very helpful ,even got on the computer to check their whole site (southern feed) and it was not on there! 
He even did some calling and called me back to tell me he can not get it anywhere.
Are you guys sure it should be available in my area?
They had a per. rye for 50 some dollars a 50lb bag. Is that close?
What is the difference between those two?
Of course I'd rather spend the $26 !
Thanks,Chris


----------



## ufo_chris

I didn't realize that Marshall ryegrass is an annual!(just did a search on it!)
So ok, if it's an annual ,don't I have to seed it every year?
If I graze it every 45 days I won't get seeds ,right.
I thought someone told me to seed it now ,it will grow some before winter ,then come up next year?
Thanks,Chris


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## trbizwiz

Powerflex fence is having their customer appreciation day at the end of this month. Here's a link if anyone is interested. Kit Pharo will be there, that should be interesting. I think Godsgapeach bought one of his bulls.
http://www.powerflexfence.com/news/events/customer-appreciation-days/


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## ramiller5675

Does anybody have any experience or suggestions for building a high tensile fence that is curved (such as along a terrace in cropland)?

I grow winter wheat (moving towards no-till) and depending on the year, there is the possibility for a volunteer stand of crabgrass after harvest. This year there was enough moisture after harvest to grow enough crabgrass to provide a significant amount of grazing (which I just continuously grazed).

But, if I could figure out a way to build a temporary high tensile fence that curves to follow the terraces, allows me to rotationally graze, and is relatively easy to remove at the end of the summer, I think I could justify fertilizing and/or planting something like Red River crabgrass as a double crop after the wheat.

I have a few ideas about building a temporary removable high-tensile fence (up to 2000' long), but I have a few questions, can Powerflex posts be easily pulled? What is the best way to roll up high-tensile wire (horizontally, vertically, a large radius roll, the same radius as the original rolled wire)?


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## agmantoo

ramiller5675

The Red River crabgrass is a great grass for hot dry weather. I broadcast mine and it makes enough seed even when grazed for a late crop to reseed if rotational grazed. I have also observed that the RR crabgrass stays suppressed by the cool season grass until it goes dormant. This may happen with you wheat also.
I need to ask a question. Why do you have to follow the terrace? I have terraces from a previous attempt by the prior owner to grow grain on what is now my cattle farm. I just cross these terraces with the partition fencing.

I rewind high tensile wire on large cable reels, the type used by cable tv installers. I have a homemade cable reel support with a pipe through the center for holding the spool. I manually wind. Unwinding could be done with an ATV or tractor. 2000 ft would not be a problem. The end posts would need to be somewhat like those used in grape vineyards IMO.


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## ramiller5675

Why do I have to follow the terraces? 

I have spent a few years fixing the terraces after they had been neglected and improperly maintained by a previous renter and would prefer to run the fences along the top of the terraces to avoid any potential erosion problems. After all the time and effort invested to fix those terraces, I am a little gun-shy about not following the terraces however slight the chances of erosion are.

I would also like to have the option of cutting the crabgrass for hay. It is a bear to try to cut hay in these fields if you don&#8217;t follow the terraces. 

We are also starting to grow grain sorghum as part of our crop rotations and I would like to be able to subdivide the fields to graze the stubble over the winter. If I could figure out an easy way to build a semi-permanent fence that follows the contour of the terraces it would give me more options for grazing sorghum stubble, crabgrass, winter wheat, etc.

I think that finding a sturdy line post that can be used with high tensile wire but is easy to install, but is also easy to pull and relocate is my biggest obstacle.


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## CrashTestRanch

just an idea, you could drive t-post then use that t-post remover tool that has the step on leverage part and use plastic insulators for the HT wire, not as easy as using step in pig tails but it's just an idea ...


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## agmantoo

I do not at this time think it will be feasible to serpentine a temporary fence and work the terrace in a grain crop.. Could you establish a dedicated terrace or strip and plant it in grass and then erect a permanent fence in the strip? Even when trying to make a curve in a permanent fence I use multiple short runs of straight sections. If you can make the fence straight, I do believe that most anything would make line posts if you had the end posts braced sufficiently. Going no-till will let you remove the terraces. Where I have reworked hillsides that had terraces, I removed the terraces. Once I get those areas grassed it is surprising how erosion is held in check. I have some steep hills. Some are actually unsafe to ride on. I turned the ATV over last week as I was broadcasting ryegrass.


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## ramiller5675

Crashtest, 

I have considered using t-posts. In the past, I have used a combination of t-posts, rebar posts, and 14 ga. wire to build curved electric fences in wheat fields. It works, but the fence needs to be checked often, can need alot of fixing, and some calves seem to have a knack for knocking the insulators off the posts. 

Agmantoo,

I have considered establishing a grassed area for a more permanent fence, but would like to be able to move the fence depending on what is growing, etc. Once I am completely no-till for a few years, I should have more options about where I put fences and less apprehension about not following a terrace. 

This winter will be a good time to think about the best way to subdivide these fields.


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## ufo_chris

Just wanted to repost this as nobody answered ,I think it got missed with the new topic starting.


ufo_chris said:


> Forgot to update ,but I called just about all the stores on the list and nothing.
> The guy at one store(Millstone) was very helpful ,even got on the computer to check their whole site (southern feed) and it was not on there!
> He even did some calling and called me back to tell me he can not get it anywhere.
> Are you guys sure it should be available in my area?
> They had a per. rye for 50 some dollars a 50lb bag. Is that close?
> What is the difference between those two?
> Of course I'd rather spend the $26 !
> Thanks,Chris





ufo_chris said:


> I didn't realize that Marshall ryegrass is an annual!(just did a search on it!)
> So ok, if it's an annual ,don't I have to seed it every year?
> If I graze it every 45 days I won't get seeds ,right.
> I thought someone told me to seed it now ,it will grow some before winter ,then come up next year?
> Thanks,Chris


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## PACrofter

ramiller5675 said:


> Crashtest,
> 
> I have considered using t-posts. In the past, I have used a combination of t-posts, rebar posts, and 14 ga. wire to build curved electric fences in wheat fields. It works, but the fence needs to be checked often, can need alot of fixing, and some calves seem to have a knack for knocking the insulators off the posts.
> 
> Agmantoo,
> 
> I have considered establishing a grassed area for a more permanent fence, but would like to be able to move the fence depending on what is growing, etc. Once I am completely no-till for a few years, I should have more options about where I put fences and less apprehension about not following a terrace.
> 
> This winter will be a good time to think about the best way to subdivide these fields.


Ramiller5675 - I am facing a similar situation to what you describe. We have steep land with pretty poor soil; it's hard packed and the water doesn't absorb into the soil if there's much rain at all. I need to find a way to subdivide the one open area I have to accommodate (a) grazing, (b) a little cropping, and (c) managing the rainfall to keep as much water in the soil as possible. The road we live on used to be called Dry Ridge Road because the water table is so deep; at least part of that reason is that water runs off so quickly.

The system I'm working on involves permanent strips of trees and shrubs on contour. I'll be putting in electric (non-high-tensile) fencing on either side of these trees and building a slight berm or terrace on the uphill side of the trees. I'm hoping this will keep the animals, at least the bigger ones, out of the trees long enough for the plants to bear fruit or nuts and to drive their roots deep into the soil and open it up a bit. The terraces should slow the water down long enough for it to start soaking in. I'd like to plant crops on the terraces for us and that the animals can eat during the winter, along with the grass that gets stockpiled during the growing season. This, in theory, will help fertilize the soil instead of having everything erode off, like it had been doing before we bought the place.

The challenge we're facing is exactly what you posted about - running a temporary fence along contour. In order for our system to work, I need to allow grazing on the grassed portion of the slope below the trees and above the terraced areas, while keeping the animals out of the planted terraces. I would rotate, in a sense, the one terrace that's planted to crops each year, and that field is where the animals would be kept over the winter. Other years, that one terrace will be in a long-term ley with grasses. Not sure if I'm describing this well, but it makes sense to me.

Still not sure how we're going to do that, so I'm very interested in this mini-thread. Thanks for posting the question.


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris said:


> I didn't realize that Marshall ryegrass is an annual!(just did a search on it!)
> So ok, if it's an annual ,don't I have to seed it every year?
> If I graze it every 45 days I won't get seeds ,right.
> I thought someone told me to seed it now ,it will grow some before winter ,then come up next year?
> Thanks,Chris



Marshall ryegrass is an annual. 

Where I live Marshall ryegrass will germinate and grow some if planted in Sept and early Oct. There can be some limited grazing before cold weather sets in and there will be some growth in early Spring on warm days and the ryegrass will continue to grow and provide grazing until rather hot weather arrives. 

I do reseed the Marshall each Fall but if the areas had ryegrass previously I reduce the amount of seed sown to approximately 10 lbs/acre. IMO some of the Marshall ryegrass goes dormant and goes perennial in some years. Where the Marshall ryegrass goes to seed those seed also sprout. I do not want the ryegrass to overtake the fescue.


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## ramiller5675

PACrofter, 

There is a video about a tree/shrub planting technique used in Australia to reduce wind erosion, increase water infiltration, etc. that might be helpful at:

[ame]http://www.vimeo.com/9118145[/ame]

I'm not so sure that I would put terraces in a field if I was starting from scratch. Terraces are designed to drain excess water off of a field instead of increasing the rate of infiltration and if they aren't laid out right and maintained correctly, I think they can cause more problems than they fix. But, if you have existing terraces, you have to learn to work with them. 

A curved fence shouldn't be a problem to build, the posts would be placed on the curve (closer together as the curve tightens) and the wire would run on the outside of the curve. In my situation, I want to run a high-tensile wire (so it carries enough power on a long run), and the fence will only be up for the summer and then would be taken down. 

I am beginning to think that it is a simple matter of using something like Powerflex posts, installing them so that they lean out towards the curve (so they act sort of like a spring), and then only tightening the wire so that it is snug (and not bow string tight).

Since I need to be able to easily pull the posts at the end of the summer, I was thinking that it might be possible to "drill a pilot hole" (similar to taking a soil sample) so that the post isn't wedged into the ground as much.


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## PACrofter

Ramiller5675 - 

Thanks for the video link. Seems like a lot of good ideas come out of Australia for conserving water and dealing with erosion.

While I agree with you that terraces can be used to safely divert excess water, I have to disagree with you that they cannot be used to increase the rate of infiltration of "non-excess" water. As the water comes barreling down the steep slope uphill from the terrace, and then hits the flat portion of the terrace, it will have no choice but to soak into the soil (assuming the soil isn't overly compacted or frozen, of course). My plan is to put the terraces on contour and make them of such a size that they will handle the expected rainfall in about 98% of the likely rains in my area, based on 10 years' historical rainfall patterns, for the amount of surface area between that terrace and the one uphill from it. Much of this thinking is based on Bill Mollison's work as laid out in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/PERMACULTURE-...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1286626747&sr=1-2

There will be a berm on the downhill edge of the terrace to handle the other 2% of expected rains that don't manage to soak in and direct that water to a well grassed and stone-lined spillway. Eventually these will lead to a pond to store truly excess water in such a way that animals can use it or I can direct it to specific portions of pasture down-hill. See the keyline system developed by Yeomans in Australia:

http://www.yeomansplow.com.au/basis-of-keyline.htm

I still need to put in a temporary fence on contour above the terrace to keep the animals grazing on the hillside above the terrace from getting into the crops I'm growing on the terrace. The fencing on both sides of the trees and shrubs at the downhill side of the terrace will be permanent, and that doesn't present a problem. I like your idea of putting the Powerflex posts in at an angle and then snugging up the wire. I'll have to get some of those posts and try that!


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## ufo_chris

agmantoo said:


> Marshall ryegrass is an annual.
> 
> Where I live Marshall ryegrass will germinate and grow some if planted in Sept and early Oct. There can be some limited grazing before cold weather sets in and there will be some growth in early Spring on warm days and the ryegrass will continue to grow and provide grazing until rather hot weather arrives.
> 
> I do reseed the Marshall each Fall but if the areas had ryegrass previously I reduce the amount of seed sown to approximately 10 lbs/acre. IMO some of the Marshall ryegrass goes dormant and goes perennial in some years. Where the Marshall ryegrass goes to seed those seed also sprout. I do not want the ryegrass to overtake the fescue.


So in my area (NE OHio) it probably would not do so well then?
I mean if I seed it in late summer early fall and only get a little grazing out of it and possibly no regrowth after our sometimes very hard winters,I'd probably be better off just buying a bale of Hay?
Chris


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## Texas Papaw

ramiller5675 said:


> Does anybody have any experience or suggestions for building a high tensile fence that is curved (such as along a terrace in cropland)?
> 
> I grow winter wheat (moving towards no-till) and depending on the year, there is the possibility for a volunteer stand of crabgrass after harvest. This year there was enough moisture after harvest to grow enough crabgrass to provide a significant amount of grazing (which I just continuously grazed).
> 
> But, if I could figure out a way to build a temporary high tensile fence that curves to follow the terraces, allows me to rotationally graze, and is relatively easy to remove at the end of the summer, I think I could justify fertilizing and/or planting something like Red River crabgrass as a double crop after the wheat.
> 
> I have a few ideas about building a temporary removable high-tensile fence (up to 2000' long), but I have a few questions, can Powerflex posts be easily pulled? What is the best way to roll up high-tensile wire (horizontally, vertically, a large radius roll, the same radius as the original rolled wire)?


I would suggest using polywire instead of hi-tensile on the terraces. IMO, it is much easier to install/remove than hi-tensile. You can use 1/2" fiberglass posts for corners/direction changes. They are easy to install/remove. Also, you could opt for using the pigtail posts along the terraces as they work well in this situation.

Just another 2 cents worth.


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## agmantoo

ufo chris

You may want to read this and see where your location and temperatures fall
http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs775.pdf


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## ufo_chris

agmantoo said:


> ufo chris
> 
> You may want to read this and see where your location and temperatures fall
> http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs775.pdf


Thanks so much for that link. It does seem we are a little too far north (zone5) but they also said that there were not enough studies in colder climates.
I would still try some if I could get it for $25 /50 lbs but over that it's just not worth it right now.
So is Marshall just another name for annual? If I find any annual ryegrass it is as good or the same as Marshall?
Thanks,Chris


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## agmantoo

This is an update from the project discussed on post 1213. I have the new stream bed in place and the old stream bed filled in with dirt and the dangerous bank cut down to where I can ride the slope with the tractor. With rain projected I went ahead and sowed the smoothed area. Time is running out to get ground cover before cold weather sets in. A burn permit has been obtained and I will burn the brush when the conditions are right. A neighbor is getting the firewood. It will probably be Spring before I work on the bank where the wood is stored. As I have stated previously, I believe that land one already owns justifies the expense of improving it. The purchase price had been committed, property tax is being paid and the land is usually conveniently joined to the rest of ones land and the value of the entire property is enhanced. I fully anticipate that once the forage is established this area will provide not less than 6 days worth of grazing per year for the entire herd.


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## godsgapeach

That looks great, Agman! Thanks for letting us see the progress you've made.


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## agmantoo

The neighbor has a small area that I can graze. The problem is that I have a 3 wire separation fence between us. The top and the bottom wires are earth ground and the center wire is hot. I wanted to use a PVC "pipe gate" to access his property and to have the fence to remain hot. Here is the solution I arrived at. I moved the two earth ground wires to the back side of the fiberglass posts on the right and left of the post that I placed the PVC "gate "over. The hot wire was left on the opposite or front side. After placing the PVC post over the center fiber glass posts, I disconnected the hairpins to the post on the left and right of the PVC "gate and raised the two ground wires and placed them in the V in the PVC "gate" pipe. The hot wire was moved to the top hole in the fiberglass post on the left and right of the PVC "gate". I then took the hairpin for the hot wire where the PVC "gate" post is and bent a loop in the end. I raised the hot wire and slipped the looped end of the hair pin to hold the hot wire a few inches lower than the ground wires onto the PVC "gate" The results are that the two ground wires are isolated from the hot and the hot remains electrified without shorting to the ground wires. The pics will be explain the arrangement better than my description.


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## ArmyDoc

Been looking at farm equipment. What's the difference/benefit of a flail mower as compared to a bush-hog (rotary mower) or a disc mower? Which would be best when clearing land from forest to pasture?


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## agmantoo

The bush hog is the most durable in rough conditions and will require less maintenance. They are like a Timex....can take a licking and keep on ticking. The bush hog is also cheaper to purchase and much harder to destroy. I have both a flail mower and a couple of Bush hogs. Should you buy a rotary cutter/bush hog get one with a stump jumper and a slip clutch. Check the HP rating of the gear boxes on the cutter and get one with each gear box with at least twice the HP of the tractor. Stay with a major brand! All rotary cutters are not made the same. PS... get a rotary cutter that is at least wide enough to cut from outside to outside of the tractor wheels.


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## ArmyDoc

Thanks Agmantoo.

Trying to get a handle on equipment needs. I'm looking at 50-75 hp range tractors and a bushog. I've been told I wouldn't regret getting a tractor with a front end loader. I'm also trying to figure out what I need interms of planting forage. Some suggest a no-till drill to avoid disturbing the soil, but I think you've said you didn't like them because of the rows they make, and prefer a broadcast type seeder. 

How do you prepare the soil for planting, and how do you go about planting? 

Any suggestions for me? I'm trying to limit what I have to spend on equipment, so I'm looking at used equipment, but I'm not a mechanic, so I can't afford to get something that will need a lot of work to keep running.


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## agmantoo

"How do you prepare the soil for planting, and how do you go about planting?"

What you do regarding the preparation for planting is IMO determined by how you cleared the trees and what you did with the stumps. What have you decided to do in this task?

"Any suggestions for me? I'm trying to limit what I have to spend on equipment, so I'm looking at used equipment, but I'm not a mechanic, so I can't afford to get something that will need a lot of work to keep running."

The tractor will be used as long as you are in this venture. The bush hog will also be required for the same time period. Sod drills are very expensive and are used very intermittently so the return on the investment is not good. If I were going to get a good used tractor to keep for a lengthy period I would buy a low hour Massey Ferguson most likely. They are cheaper than the green ones yet have a good history. I would be buying it to keep and not overly concerned about resell. If it was to have a front end loader I would want a quick detach version. I despise running a tractor and having to tolerate the unused FEL knocking about doing nothing. Once I hear from you on how you are going to work the tree land into open areas we can discuss the tillage implements. Tractorhouse .com is a good site to see equipment prices.


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## agmantoo

Twelve days ago in post 1287 I submitted a pic of my current project. Since that time we have fortunately received some moisture and the sown seeds have sprouted and are emerging. Here is a view from this morning


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## Gabriel

Armydoc, start frequenting auctions. Fall is better than Spring, and with the economy like it is, you can get find some really good deals now. Find someone who's knowledgeable if you're not.


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## PACrofter

Very nice, Agman!



agmantoo said:


> Twelve days ago in post 1287 I submitted a pic of my current project. Since that time we have fortunately received some moisture and the sown seeds have sprouted and are emerging. Here is a view from this morning.
> /QUOTE]


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## ArmyDoc

Thanks Agmantoo and Gabriel.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I started a new one here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=371896

It is rotationally grazing / cattle oriented, but with the forestry aspect I thought I should probably move it elsewhere. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. 

Thanks everyone.


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## agmantoo

I like porcelain insulators for my high tension fence because to me they are more durable. The problem with them is how to secure the porcelain insulator to the posts when making line runs. Once the insulator is secured to the post then the question arises on how to affix the high tensile wire to the insulator in line runs of wire. My solution has been to machine bolt the insulator to metal posts and to lag bolt them to wooden posts. To fasten the high tensile wire in position on the insulator I take a short length of the high tensile wire. I form the center section of the wire to the diameter of the of the center spool portion of the insulator. Next, I make a curlycue on each end of the wire by wrapping the wire around the round shank of a #2 phillips screwdriver. The line wire must be free to move within the curlycue. Using the screwdriver shank will create a larger ID than the line wire diameter. I then place the line wire in the insulator, wrap one end of the mounting wire to the line wire and around the insulator and up the other side and spiral the curlycue around the line wire. I find that this technique holds up a lot better than any of the plastic insulators I have used to date. The various plastic insulators I have tried break when deer hit the line wires. On wooden post that are treated the various types of drive in fasteners eventually work their way out.


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## gimpyrancher

It took days but I finally finished 44 pages of this subject. OMG! I was planning on taking Judy'd seminar in Alabama because I thought it was the only place to get this much information. I guess I was wrong. Agman, I look forward to a long, friendly relationship. My best to you and yours. :dance:


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## agmantoo

Welcome to the site! I see you got your posting issues behind you and I look forward to hearing from you and sharing info.


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## trbizwiz

Well into year two of my mig set up, I have determined I really suck at it so far. I have come up with a bunch of ideas of what not to do. It looks like Ill be feeding hay from now until spring thaw. Yay me. Now that was an expensive mistake. I really did not plan for such a drought this summer or fall. We have had some good rains, but so far between and and some brutally hot dry weather between. I am thinking the only way to overcome this in the future is to either stock 1 cow to 3 acres and or some sort of irrigation. Now I have irrigated, but on a very small scale. I just could not keep up. 
Don't take my comments wrong, but I am quite frustrated right now. I really enjoy the farming aspect, I just really need to get better at identifying issues before they become issues. 
I have learned it is probably better to over plant and do so too early all of your seasonal annuals, don't underestimate the value of rye grass, and if you don't want to feed hay have a backup pasture available to graze on for healing time for your ground. I am going to try to work out a deal with a neighbor, the ground is unused and has been for years, but has a decent stand of fescue on it, probably waist high. Would that be worth trying or should I just buy hay and work smarter next year?? Thanks for your inputs guys.


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## gimpyrancher

My property is in the South Central, High Desert (4500') region of Oregon. I want to turn this into an income producing business. I'm hoping it will all be created debt free and "city" stress free. Don't want to work 24 hours a day but don't mind 7 days a week. I love regularity and new challenges. Don't mind hard work but have learned the advantages of power equipment for my gimpy golden years.

I own 315 acres with a 155 acre parcel of protected wetlands. It must be mostly left alone.

The workable 160 acre parcel is a mile long and a quarter mile wide rectangle (East/West orientation). I plan on building a small 30X30 real log home/residence from trees off my property.

It's (old & broken) barbed wire T-post fenced on 3 sides. It's got a seasonal river along one end with a seasonal lake at the same end. It's mostly forest (2nd growth lodgepole pine and aspen stands). Plenty of vegetation garbage to clean up. Plenty of thinning of the lumber to do. Part of a prior large cattle operation. In the summer, it's very dusty. In the winter, a 4 inch snow is a storm. Never seen more than patches of 6 inches accumulation. Never needed 4WD as long as I stay on the narrow forest service type roads. Not much natural grasses growing, yet. Summer is up to 90 degrees and Winter down to high teens. About 20 inches of rain.

I have power (poles) along the end with the seasonal lake/river.

I am planning on installing a complete new 3-4 wire HT electric perimeter fence with fiberglass posts, to keep other's cattle off my property. Since it's a rectangle I can split it up any way that provides the best use with the least effort to move livestock around. Then I can split the rest up as I'm able to clean and plant. I think I want to bring in goats and sheep for a season to clean up as much garbage plants as possible.

After the initial perimeter fencing, I plan to address a water supply. Perhaps both a well (or two) with one or more large above ground storage tanks for optimum management. The water table is fairly shallow so multiple wells are possible.

Since this is a blank slate, I can created whatever I want. I have a lot of game and predator residents. That is why I want fiberglass posts. I want to make welcome area game.

Any help would be great.

I am so lucky to have found this forum. Thanks again Agmantoo.


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## Curtis B

trbizwiz, take comfort in knowing I feel your pain, since am in the same boat as you. This year for me (my first with RG) is the poster year of what not to do, and murpheys law. The section I overseeded right before a rain (which lasted 10 min, and then none for over 30 days) didn't take as far as I see. It is so dry the cows realized the elec fence barely works. Now I can't get them to stay in the areas that still need grazed. To top it all off, 1" of rain since June here, almost every pond I see is dried up, and I have cracks big enough to lose a lamb in. I am about ready to start a problems with RG thread so I don't have to tie this one up with my mistakes and issues.


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## trbizwiz

would a football field irragator ( the run and gun style) be effective in preventing this in the future, or did I just over graze. Nothing seems to recover since june. I havent grazed one section since early july and is is just now starting to grow. Its maybe 5 inches tall. I have found a vendor for a run and gun that sells them for $1600 shipped and they come with 300 feet of 3/4 inch water line should cover 78 feet of area 300 feet long in a day. My lanes are 350 ish feet long and 85 ish wide. I could also buy a couple of acres adjacent to my land for a couple of grand. Ultimately i would like to do both but I am trying to eliminate debt and operate a cash only expenditure, so I'll probably have to choose water or land. I am guessing the irrigation would be tax deductible so thats a consideration.


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## gimpyrancher

Please keep posting any successes and/or failures. I know it doesn't help you except to vent, but it helps the rest of us coming up behind you a bunch. Maybe if more failures were shared perhaps fewer of us will have to go through the same mistakes.

Thanks in advance for your help.:goodjob:


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## trbizwiz

I compounded my mistake by over stocking. I had the two heifers on pasture the year prior but they could not keep up all year and the stock piled forage was undesireable to their finicky palate. So naturally i figured raise the stocking level and keep the grass grazed. I bought some bottle calves and put them on pasture at 6 weeks. I gave them free run of the place figuring that they were too small to eat too much grass. I think that compounded with drought has a lot to do with my lack of forage recovery. I think if I had started them in the rotation right off the bat and made them conform I would have significantly more forage right now. I actually used my O'brein reels and poly braid and fenced off areas in my yard and have been rotating them around my house where I seem to have ample grass. Now I only have 2 bred heifers and 4 300 pound steers so the extra 2 acres has helped. But sadly i am at the end of that now. So I'll have to start feeding hay this weekend. I figure i'll buy round bales, and stage them in areas where I am not happy with the thickness of forage. I'll poly braid them off to eliminate access to them until I am ready to feed. Then I'll cut the webbing and roll out what I want them to have each day and tarp and rope off the rest. I am hoping this will eliminate waste, adn improve fertility to my weak areas. Maybe it is just stupid and a waste of time and resources. I will know for sure in march, but I enjoy spending time out ther and working and right now I'll try about anything.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc

You posed this question and we did not conclude our conversation.
"Was wondering if you might post regarding any suggestions you might have concerning when to harvest the trees & plant pasture next year. Also, any thoughts you have concerning the specifics of "how to" - i.e. prep and seeding. "

I remain unclear as to the details of what will makeup the harvest.
I have attempted to better understand the silvopasture techniques but I am uncertain if the proponents were equally experienced in rotational grazing. I am not a cattle expert by any means. I do have grass growing skills for the area I reside however. Early in our conversations I think that I proposed larger open areas separating the treed silvopasture strips. Starting with wooded acres and converting as proposed in the articles I read on silvopasture there is IMO no efficient method to rid the area of the stumps. With stumps, it will be nearly impossible to smooth the ground to prepare the area for seeding and the maintenance thereof of the grass growing strips. Additionally you are going to have acid tolerant trees and grass that wants the PH at not less than 5.8. Hiring the land prepared is going to be expensive, the trees have some value to help offset that cost. Have you attempted to trade the trees for land prep? Until I know how the land will be prepped prior to seeding, I conclude that I cannot properly comment on the actual seeding. Did we ever reach an understanding on what the actual forages will be?


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## agmantoo

gimpyrancher

I see that you have a large undertaking ahead of you. I know from my own experiences that it will be a labor of love.

Rather than a shotgun approach on suggestions, I am of the opinion you will get better feedback from the group if you post specif questions as issues surface. 

Good to have you aboard!


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

I have no experience with irrigation. I have access to 1,000,000 gallons of water per day but the hills and hollows here are not all that adaptable for the equipment.

Good years tend to make all of us want to maximize the headcount of our herds. None of us can accurately predict the available moisture from rain. Here at my place I also got caught by a very dry grazing period. What really hurts is when the roots of the forages perish and it is too dry to reestablish those forages while the growing season exists. I am beginning to think that the carrying capacity of ones place needs to be adjusted to what can be fed during a year of minor drought. A dry 2010 has been as difficult on me as the major drought we had several years ago. Without irrigation the major thought that I have on how to survive these dry years is to have hay reserves stored and hope you never have to use them. I have managed to locate some very affordable hay. The hay is nowhere near horse hay quality but the weather remains mild here. I will feed this hay while the animals energy requirements are low. When Winter hits here I will switch over to what good forage I have managed to stockpile. Meanwhile I have sent light weight feeder calves to market. I did this not so much as to get the calves off the feed bill but to keep the brood cows in good body condition.


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## Looking4ewes

I'm only on page 7, but really appreciate this thread. I have sheep and only have two years into it. I practiced rotational grazing for the first time this year, but ran out of pasture in late October. I would like to plan better for next year, perhaps line up some off-farm winter grazing of crop residuals or cover crops. I am interested in going to an accelerated schedule of lambing from an annual one, but I need to access the need for outside inputs, shelter, and labor requirements. Right now I run a grass-based, low input form of farming. I wonder how your ideas would translate into sheep production.


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## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> 
> You posed this question and we did not conclude our conversation.
> "Was wondering if you might post regarding any suggestions you might have concerning when to harvest the trees & plant pasture next year. Also, any thoughts you have concerning the specifics of "how to" - i.e. prep and seeding. "
> 
> I remain unclear as to the details of what will makeup the harvest.
> I have attempted to better understand the silvopasture techniques but I am uncertain if the proponents were equally experienced in rotational grazing. I am not a cattle expert by any means. I do have grass growing skills for the area I reside however. Early in our conversations I think that I proposed larger open areas separating the treed silvopasture strips. Starting with wooded acres and converting as proposed in the articles I read on silvopasture there is IMO no efficient method to rid the area of the stumps. With stumps, it will be nearly impossible to smooth the ground to prepare the area for seeding and the maintenance thereof of the grass growing strips. Additionally you are going to have acid tolerant trees and grass that wants the PH at not less than 5.8. Hiring the land prepared is going to be expensive, the trees have some value to help offset that cost. Have you attempted to trade the trees for land prep? Until I know how the land will be prepped prior to seeding, I conclude that I cannot properly comment on the actual seeding. Did we ever reach an understanding on what the actual forages will be?


Hi Agmantoo,

So as not to hijack the thread, I reposted your response and replied on the silvopasture thread here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=371896

Thanks,
ArmyDoc


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## agmantoo

Looking4ewes said:


> I'm only on page 7, but really appreciate this thread. I have sheep and only have two years into it. I practiced rotational grazing for the first time this year, but ran out of pasture in late October. I would like to plan better for next year, perhaps line up some off-farm winter grazing of crop residuals or cover crops. I am interested in going to an accelerated schedule of lambing from an annual one, but I need to access the need for outside inputs, shelter, and labor requirements. Right now I run a grass-based, low input form of farming. I wonder how your ideas would translate into sheep production.


I have no experience with sheep and I am in zone 7.
What we do have in common is that I am a grass-based low input operation. To be able to sleep comfortably at night we both need to know that the animals are properly confined and relatively safe. A good perimeter fence is essential. With rotational grazing of cattle it is not uncommon for a calf to graze ahead of the herd on the best grass. I place my partition fences so that the younger animals can "escape" by going under the temporary partition fence. I guess you would want you animals to be able to do the same. The practices utilized with cattle and forage should not vary from species to species. It takes 3500 volts on the fence to contain cattle. I would think you would need that much or more with sheep. That would interpret into having a high output energizer. This is not a place to skimp. I find that most folks that cannot control their stock do not have enough output to the fence. They typically build a good fence and buy a cheap charger. Some of the key requirements for rotational grazing successfully other than good fencing are...do not overgraze or overstock, keep the animals off grazed areas once the area has been grazed down to approximately 3 inches, allocate what the animals need for a short period of time and move them frequently, never stress your animals by keeping their body condition up, research your particular type of animal and verify which breed thrives in your area on low inputs, grow the type of forage the animals need and what will thrive in your area.


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## Looking4ewes

Due to my inexperience, I do not have much to add to the discussion. I use electric netting and battery energizers - good ones, as you say. I like to have 4000 volts on the fence, 6000 would be great. Sheep are harder to contain and are prone to predation, so the electric netting keeps sheep in and predators out. I also graze a guard llama with the sheep. The electric netting is more expensive, but its portability is key. It allows me to graze pastures/crop residues/cover crops without perimeter fencing, conceivably those that I can rent for a nominal fee. As of yet, all my grazing has been done on the farm.

I have made many mistakes as a new farmer and grazier; I won't bore you with the details. They mostly have to due with understocking and underfunding of fence supplies. The labor of leap-frogging sections of electric netting daily, then moving waters/minerals feeders, has been intense. I retain all ewe lambs to grow my flock, and proceeds from the sale of castrated males go into more fencing and supplies. I have grown from 24 ewe lambs to 50 ewes and 20 ewe lambs in 3 seasons. I breed ewe lambs if large enough at breeding (100 lbs) and practice selective culling of ewes.

I own 80 acres, 32 of which are cleared and put into pasture. The pasture was newly planted 3 years ago, 70/30 grass/legume mix, but grows a lot of clover due to over-liming. I clipped down the excess the first year, and had two cuttings of hay/silage taken off these past two years. As my flock grows, I want to graze more, and hay less. As it stands now, I have a large row of wrapped balage and no acreage stockpiled for winter grazing. I need to reverse this, particularly since the haying has been done on a share basis, which I know now is just giving my fertility away for someone else's benefit. ;-(

My goals for next year are to educate myself on how to utilize my pastures better for grazing, yet still take a cutting of hay to manage the excess. I need to develop local relationships in order to line up winter grazing of crop residuals/cover crops. I want to move my sheep into a system of accelerated lambing, going from 1 lambing period every 12 months to 1 lambing period every 8 months. I want to accomplish this utilizing as much grazing as possible. I also want to streamline my rotational grazing set-up to reduce labor. 

Thanks, Agmantoo, and to all that contribute to this discussion. My head is spinning as I try to grasp what will work in my situation.

Cheers,


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## agmantoo

Looking4ewes
Your efforts to date are very impressive! From your reply it is apparent that you have goals that are set and you are steadily making progress. I understand the expenses associated with startup. Breaking away from being a conventional producer and getting you input costs reduced will do more to maximize your financial success than anything I can think of. As your flock increases IMO you will need to reduce the labor with the electric netting. Your 32 acres that are in pasture can be made to support many more animals than what a conventional producer would imagine. Not knowing what type of fence you have around it I will venture to suggest that you look at the high tensile woven wire that is now on the market for perimeter fencing. That wire along with electrified individual stands of high tensile at the base and the top of the fence should afford containment and protection. Again, outside of my area of experience, you need to see if you can contain the herd, while still offering protection, with the polywire and the stepin pigtail posts with the interior partition fences. Adding a second strand of polywire to the posts could have merit. You do need to up the voltage on the fence. Government restrictions on fence chargers made since 1997 limit the output to 10,000 volts. Using a car battery and a 12 volt high end ParMak charger will get the voltage near this limit. In closing for now, I suggest you concentrate on the 32 acres for grazing and use the off site land for hay production. You should be able to run at least 40 to 50 % more animals on a well managed rotationally grazed pasture.


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## PACrofter

Agman,

How would you attach a second polywire line to the step-in posts? I'm looking at this to run hogs with my cattle next year, but would need some way of running a strand or two of wire on the lower portions of the step-in posts.

Thanks in advance!



agmantoo said:


> ...you need to see if you can contain the herd, while still offering protection, with the polywire and the stepin pigtail posts with the interior partition fences. Adding a second strand of polywire to the posts could have merit....


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## agmantoo

To connect a second polywire I think I would get some of the plastic insulators made to be used with rebar. These insulators have a slot that slips over the rod and a large plastic nut that tightens from the backside of the insulator to secure the insulator at the desired height.
The insulator would be something like these
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Round+Post+Insulator_detail_IRPW.php


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## PACrofter

Thanks, Agman - I'd seen similar insulators in the store that didn't open fully so I could attach around the post (meaning I'd have to slip it on one end of the post, which obviously isn't feasible with the pigtail posts). I'll get some of these and try them out!


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## agmantoo

PACrofter

Verify these insulators are open on the back. If not, you may have to take a hacksaw and modify the insulator.


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## agmantoo

The starting point for seeding









[/QUOTE]

A close up of the grass one month after planting. Since the seed were broadcast there are no open spaces as there would have been with the seed drilled. Broadcasting is the preferred method for me. I typically use approximately 20% more seed than if I drilled but the end results are IMO worth the added seed cost. The time and the equipment expense is much less than drilling.


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## trbizwiz

Absolutely Beautiful


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## wstevenl

PACrofter,
It may depend on the post and the insulator you choose but we use Gallager pig tail posts and we can slip a Dare insulator (yellow one) over and around the pig tail and then tighten with the nut. It works very well and we've used it for pigs and to keep calves in. You can add as many wires as you want.


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## Gabriel

We just got a 60 acre lease in central TN. 95% pasture, poor soil, not too weedy though as my F.I.L. has been haying it. Has a couple of sheds, half is fenced in 4' goat wire and it has water/electricity. I'll have to spend some time there before I have any specific questions about rotation. Starting out I only have two bred cows and two milk goats. Planning on rotating them within the fenced sections for now. (Goats will probably be separate.)

I guess the big question is: where to find more cattle? Anyone know of a central TN source? Perhaps more pertinent, what traits do I look for? Anyone have a site explaining that? 

I'm inclined to go with bred cows/heifers, but would waiting 'til spring and buying calves be better? Crunching numbers gets iffy really fast when they're all theoretical... need something firm to work with.


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## agmantoo

Hi Gabriel,

I cannot advise you on the source. However I can on the traits. We can start here with this information.


Modern Cattle Not Bred for Grass 
Tuesday, 28 September 2010

Lee Manske, a range scientist at North Dakota State, recently pointed out that, on average, cattle with modern, fast-growing, hard-to-fatten genetics are 20 percent heavier than traditional cattle. They also have energy requirements that are 27 to 43 percent higher than traditional cattle and protein requirements that are 41 to 72 percent higher. The net result of this improvement is that forage crude protein is deficient for these "modern" brood cows as much as 82 percent of the year. Someone along the way forgot that we have cattle because we have grass. They are not a end in and of themselves. 

Obtaining cattle that can adapt and prosper on grass alone is a challenge. It has taken me ~15 years to get the brood cows that I feel match my farms ability to produce. To date I have not been able to find bulls that can hold up to what I expect of them.

Can I assume your obtaining the leased land is to generate a profit from a rotational grazing enterprise? Provided this is correct will you be selling feeder calves? 

To accomplish what is in the above paragraph IMO you will have to shift away from a lot of conventional and accepted practices. You may even be ridiculed. Are you up to this?

I suggest that you try to find someone that is producing cattle in your area using the same forages as methods you plan on using. From the offspring of their cattle you should consider buying your brood stock. I would not buy bred cattle unless you have a substantial budget. You should be able to get started with a larger herd but with a delayed income. It should not take long to recover the forfeiture of some of the initial startup first year income by offsetting that income with much larger and higher profit income the second year and thereafter. The time will pass fast.

Once I hear back from you on some of the questions I asked we will move forward as to the desired animal traits.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> I cannot advise you on the source. However I can on the traits. We can start here with this information.


Thanks for the article, it confirms my fears. 



agmantoo said:


> Can I assume your obtaining the leased land is to generate a profit from a rotational grazing enterprise?


Yes. The reason I said I'd be starting them out in the fenced area is twofold, if they break through the electric they'll still be on my property, and it will be easier to hay the unfenced section. I cannot afford to stock it anywhere close to capacity and think that's probably not wise anyway. I'll be leaving myself a lot of safety margin on grass. The hay made will keep me from being tempted to overgraze. 



agmantoo said:


> Provided this is correct will you be selling feeder calves?


No, my intent is to sell direct to consumers. I've been working on my dads farm/ranch here in central Tx for 5 years and have had good success with direct sales, although not very good success with the grazing part due to the lack of rainfall and inability to convince my dad to change methods. 



agmantoo said:


> To accomplish what is in the above paragraph IMO you will have to shift away from a lot of conventional and accepted practices. You may even be ridiculed. Are you up to this?


Am I up to it?! :hysterical: I've been fighting my dad for years... I figure I can handle it. 



agmantoo said:


> I suggest that you try to find someone that is producing cattle in your area using the same forages as methods you plan on using. From the offspring of their cattle you should consider buying your brood stock. I would not buy bred cattle unless you have a substantial budget. You should be able to get started with a larger herd but with a delayed income. It should not take long to recover the forfeiture of some of the initial startup first year income by offsetting that income with much larger and higher profit income the second year and thereafter. The time will pass fast.


Sounds like good advice. I asked about sources because I simply haven't been able to find anyone doing what this thread talks about. 

This may or may not factor into your advice, but I'll be raising pastured chickens ala Salatin, for both eggs and meat. That will ease the cash flow crunch as well as fertilize.



agmantoo said:


> Once I hear back from you on some of the questions I asked we will move forward as to the desired animal traits.


Looking forward to it, thank you!


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## agmantoo

Gabriel,

I have not been to Texas in a great number of years but I am aware of the droughts and temps in certain areas. I do not have the background/experience that I would like to have to assist you at the level that I would like. However I am aware of the type animal that does perform on forage alone.

I am acquainted with of some of the old school thoughts on what many believe to be the ideal cow. Would I be near correct to state that the cattle your father has weigh at maturity more than 1450 lbs and may reach sexual maturity and calve after they have passed their second birthday. Their frame size exceeds frame 5 and may reach frame 6. These cattle may have a medium to small gut. Calving is seasonal, once per year. If this description matches this is opposite of what you need!

To convert to forage produced beef and to produce these animals as the low cost producer you need brood cows that will thrive on what the leased land can produce. The calves need to reach approximately 1050 to 1200 lbs off this forage with average weather. You will have to have a contingency plan for droughts. 

Your cows IMO need to be frame 3.5 to 4, no more. They need to only produce a moderate amount of milk. They will need a large capacity of gut. As stated earlier, I would prefer them to have been raised on the forages you will have and with no grain. These cows need to calve at 24 months and carry the unweaned calf past normal weaning times and still produce another calf without excessive weight loss. This is the reason for moderate milk production. Over the productive life span of the brood cow and with year round calving you should gain 1 calf. It is near impossible for a late maturing cow to produce enough calves with yearly breeding to compete with the extra calves gained by the above method.

The calves from these cows should have been sired by a bull that will add length and masculinity to the offspring. This will give the beef cuts you desire. You can add to the marbling by using animals that reach sexual maturity early.

From what I have read, marbling is a problem with the modern animal that is touted at this time. They are fat on the outside from being grain fed but lack the marbling.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> I have not been to Texas in a great number of years but I am aware of the droughts and temps in certain areas. I do not have the background/experience that I would like to have to assist you at the level that I would like.


No need for great knowledge of Texas, we're moving to Tennessee. The Centerville area, specifically. 



agmantoo said:


> I am acquainted with of some of the old school thoughts on what many believe to be the ideal cow. Would I be near correct to state that the cattle your father has weigh at maturity more than 1450 lbs and may reach sexual maturity and calve after they have passed their second birthday. Their frame size exceeds frame 5 and may reach frame 6. These cattle may have a medium to small gut. Calving is seasonal, once per year. If this description matches this is opposite of what you need!


I've given you a false impression. He does not depend on the farm for his income, it's a small sideline/hobby. The cattle that we've had for a long time have been a random mix, most do meet the criteria you name though. 



agmantoo said:


> To convert to forage produced beef and to produce these animals as the low cost producer you need brood cows that will thrive on what the leased land can produce.


I'm aware from having read this thread that that is paramount. But I still feel quite ignorant as to how to judge whether or not the cattle I find to buy will be capable of that. 



agmantoo said:


> The calves need to reach approximately 1050 to 1200 lbs off this forage with average weather.


How long should this take, assuming I do my part and manage their forage correctly?



agmantoo said:


> You will have to have a contingency plan for droughts.


Because I'm going to be running several enterprises I won't have the cash to stock very many in the beginning. Diversification will be my insurance. This means I'll have about 30 acres which I'll turn into hay. 

What about very wet times? Is it recommended to put them on the dry lot and feed hay briefly?


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## agmantoo

*"I'm aware from having read this thread that that is paramount. But I still feel quite ignorant as to how to judge whether or not the cattle I find to buy will be capable of that. "
*
When you get to Tennessee I would think you can find through the extension office a producer that is raising grass fed cattle. Possibly you can link up with someone that sells feeder calves and buy a group of heifers. You can then put the feeder calves on your leased land and grow them to around 750 lbs and then get them bred. Maybe AI them to the type bull you desire. Culling will be the means you use to get the final animals that you want to retain as brood cows. You may have to cull hard and without emotion. Remember this is a business and you cannot tolerate mediocre performance. Over time you will get closer to what the optimum animals are for your place. Meanwhile you will be getting more experienced and making some money.

*"How long should this take, assuming I do my part and manage their forage correctly?"*

Few pastures are similar. Weather is not predictable and the animals genetics will differ. Putting gain on grass fed animals is the cheapest method known. A few weeks one way or another doesn't really make a big difference if you are the low cost producer. Good grass and good weather with animals adapted to rotational grazing should gain approximately 2 lbs per day on average throughout the year. The gain will fluctuate with the seasons. By the age of 18 months you should have a marketable beef. Remember that I sell feeder calves and have almost no experience in finishing cattle.

*"What about very wet times? Is it recommended to put them on the dry lot and feed hay briefly?"
*
My pastures are comprised of rolling hills. During extremely wet periods I move the cattle frequently and I try to have them graze the hilltops and the high ground. Occasionally I have to make a few repairs to damaged pastures. My goal is to never feed hay.

PS.....did not Salatin have some problems with his range chickens?


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> When you get to Tennessee I would think you can find through the extension office a producer that is raising grass fed cattle.


A great suggestion, thank you. For some reason I never think of using that resource... :bash:



agmantoo said:


> Culling will be the means you use to get the final animals that you want to retain as brood cows. You may have to cull hard and without emotion. Remember this is a business and you cannot tolerate mediocre performance.


Culling won't bother me at all. In fact, it's what will provide operating capital! 



agmantoo said:


> Good grass and good weather with animals adapted to rotational grazing should gain approximately 2 lbs per day on average throughout the year. The gain will fluctuate with the seasons. By the age of 18 months you should have a marketable beef.


Thank you. 



agmantoo said:


> My pastures are comprised of rolling hills. During extremely wet periods I move the cattle frequently and I try to have them graze the hilltops and the high ground. Occasionally I have to make a few repairs to damaged pastures.


The lease has a slight slope almost everywhere. I was asking because the last two years they've had flooding in early May. This property can't flood, it's too high, but the sheer volume concerns me. It might just be because I'm living in a virtual desert now... 



agmantoo said:


> My goal is to never feed hay.


That is certainly my long term goal, but with no practical rotational experience I do not expect to achieve that the first couple of years. I do not intend to let any of it leave the property, any not used by our cattle will go to my FIL, he has horses next door. The rest will be composted, I hope to compete with Forerunner in that endeavor. 



agmantoo said:


> PS.....did not Salatin have some problems with his range chickens?


There are several serious problems with broiler chickens on pasture. All can be overcome, I've been doing it long enough that it doesn't scare me. It has such a tremendous benefit to the pasture that it might be worth doing even if it produced no profit. The layers are much hardier and their only serious issue for me has been predators. 

Thanks for your help, I'm sure I'll have something more specific soon.


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## agmantoo

Originally Posted by agmantoo View Post

*My goal is to never feed hay.*

Gabriel's response
*That is certainly my long term goal, but with no practical rotational experience I do not expect to achieve that the first couple of years. I do not intend to let any of it leave the property, any not used by our cattle will go to my FIL, he has horses next door. The rest will be composted, I hope to compete with Forerunner in that endeavor. *

I suggest that you reconsider removing the unused forage from the pastures it grew in. To avoid buying fertilizer you will want all the nutrient that is not eaten by the cattle to remain in place along with the cattle manure. Over time, with those nutrients plus establishing legumes, you can build the fertility to the point that the land will be self sustaining.

You will want to get the PH checked on the leased land ASAP. If it needs lime see if the owner will assist financially with the initial application. Your lease arrangements should define that if for any reason, other than yours, that your out of pocket expenses be reimbursed if the lease is terminated. I have seen all to often some enterprising person salvage a run down farm to have a relative of the owner to suddenly "decide" they wanted to farm after the work was done. Remember, you are going to make a positive and noticeable change! You should be the one to benefit now and in the future provided you have a good lease.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> I suggest that you reconsider removing the unused forage from the pastures it grew in. To avoid buying fertilizer you will want all the nutrient that is not eaten by the cattle to remain in place along with the cattle manure. Over time, with those nutrients plus establishing legumes, you can build the fertility to the point that the land will be self sustaining.


Are you saying to simply mow it and let it break down in place? Which leads to me to another question: when to mow? Like all answers, I guess it's "it depends", right? It looks like we're going up this coming week, I'll get pic's to show what's growing. I only recognize a couple of the species. 



agmantoo said:


> Your lease arrangements should define that if for any reason, other than yours, that your out of pocket expenses be reimbursed if the lease is terminated. I have seen all to often some enterprising person salvage a run down farm to have a relative of the owner to suddenly "decide" they wanted to farm after the work was done.


Excellent point.


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## ArmyDoc

Agmantoo will likely recommend black Angus, and unfortunately I can't help you there, since I've mostly been researching red. But I do know of a rancher in TN who raises red Angus of the type you may be looking for. His web site is here: http://www.redhillfarms.net/

If you prefer black, and don't care for purebred, you could find a homozygous black bull to put over the red angus cows... the offspring would all be black.


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## Gabriel

ArmyDoc, thanks for the link. I'll keep them in mind, but they won't be my first choice as they say their cattle are grain fed. 

I'm not partial to any particular color. I wouldn't be selling at the sale barn except in an emergency... we haven't had trouble selling direct in the past 5 years, so I don't expect to have any in the future. I may go with purebred, unregistered, as I've seen a lot of scruffy looking cattle on craigslist and the like. Might be worth paying a little more up front to save cull time later.


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## agmantoo

Though not black this is a great looking cow. For forage only, she could use just a bit more gut. I would like to have a herd just like her, but black : )
http://www.redhillfarms.net/cattleforsale.html


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## agmantoo

Gabriel,
*Are you saying to simply mow it and let it break down in place? Which leads to me to another question: when to mow? Like all answers, I guess it's "it depends", right? It looks like we're going up this coming week, I'll get pic's to show what's growing. I only recognize a couple of the species. *

You will need access to a tractor and rotary cutter ie Bush Hog and some type of drag harrow and maybe a broadcast seeder. Balancing the animals to the properties ability to carry the herd is most difficult. During a good Springtime you will have too much feed and in late July and August along with mid Dec to early March too little if dry. If you cannot get hay baled off the paddocks in the Spring you will have to clip seed heads to keep the forage growing. In late Summer/early Fall you will need to clip again to control weeds from going to seed. If money is available there is nothing wrong with buying some hay when hay is cheap. Just think of it as buying fertilizer that you will run through the herd. I recently read that a round bale of hay has the equivalent of $28 worth of fertilizer. Most pastures in our areas have fescue growing in them. You will want to cut the fescue when the seed heads are about to emerge to get rid of the endophyte. Endophyte is not necessarily that it is made out to be if you learn how to manage it. I manage mine.


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## Gabriel

Thoughts on these calves? http://nashville.craigslist.org/grd/2106341323.html


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## agmantoo

Regarding the calves at craigslist....depends on what you plan of doing with them. If I needed a few animals to clean some pasture I might would buy them. With good forage, some mineral supplement and worming they could go to the sale barn and make a little money in the Spring. As brood stock, I would pass. I would never co-mingle them with an existing herd.


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## Gabriel

> I would never co-mingle them with an existing herd.


I don't see that I'd have a choice, what ever I get will have to be meshed as I only have two bred cows right now. The logistics problem of running multiple groups of 2-3 animals just doesn't seem worth it. 

I've never been impressed with "backyard breeders" and am in no hurry to buy, I just can't resist looking.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

What I was trying to say was that initially while getting started do whatever will make you some money. Once you get enough money accumulated to start your brood stock herd liquidate and buy your starter herd and then remain a closed herd with the exception of the bull(s)


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## ArmyDoc

Gabriel said:


> ArmyDoc, thanks for the link. I'll keep them in mind, but they won't be my first choice as they say their cattle are grain fed.
> QUOTE]
> 
> You might want to give him a call and ask about how he manages his herd. I suspect you may be confusing his beef sales program with his management program. I believe he finishes the beef he sells through direct sales on grain, but manages his cattle as grass fed otherwise, but call and ask.
> 
> The way I found out about him is from the parental lines of the cattle he runs - predominantly Becton and Buff Creek. These are old parental lines that are known for low input and more moderate framed cattle, which typically do well on grass alone. In his sale catalogue, several of his bulls were frame 3.5-4.0, with low birth weights and good yearling weights, which is somewhat hard to find.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> What I was trying to say was that initially while getting started do whatever will make you some money. Once you get enough money accumulated to start your brood stock herd liquidate and buy your starter herd and then remain a closed herd with the exception of the bull(s)


Oh, I assumed you were thinking of the possibility of importing disease. 



> You might want to give him a call and ask about how he manages his herd. I suspect you may be confusing his beef sales program with his management program. I believe he finishes the beef he sells through direct sales on grain, but manages his cattle as grass fed otherwise, but call and ask.


Good point, will do. 



> The way I found out about him is from the parental lines of the cattle he runs - predominantly Becton and Buff Creek. These are old parental lines that are known for low input and more moderate framed cattle, which typically do well on grass alone. In his sale catalogue, several of his bulls were frame 3.5-4.0, with low birth weights and good yearling weights, which is somewhat hard to find.


Did you buy from them, or otherwise find out what they charge, relative to other producers? I wouldn't want to call and find out that "if I have to ask what they charge, I can't afford it...". :shocked:


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## Gabriel

NVM, I realized they had it posted on their site.


> 10 Red Angus heifers - $2,140 average


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## trbizwiz

6 month old red polled will run you $600 to$800 they breed at 12 to 14 months. Moderate milkers medium framed and good grass genetics. Check out www.americanredpolls.com/ I am a member and breeder so clearly I am biased but read up on em. If you don't require black cattle these ate as good as you'll find.


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## Gabriel

trbizwiz said:


> 6 month old red polled will run you $600 to$800 they breed at 12 to 14 months. Moderate milkers medium framed and good grass genetics. Check out www.americanredpolls.com/ I am a member and breeder so clearly I am biased but read up on em. If you don't require black cattle these are as good as you'll find.


When you say "moderate frame", what exactly is moderate?


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## trbizwiz

Smaller than frame 5. They look a lot like the heifer agman posted above but darker red. But I am am pretty new to them. Jovid on here is much more knowledgeable on them than I am.
Hope I am not talking out of turn John.


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## SteveO

Evening All,
Agman how is the weather affecting you. were you able to get enough growth before the freeze came??
On the brighter side I spent a week in tn putting in posts and cleaning up20 years of overgrowth. On turkey day things were greening up and growing again they got about 3 inches of rain. The fields are ready for another shot of Lime. Also got a 6ft JD bushhog for reasonable money with the slipclutch. It was a busy week and I found muscles that I didn't even know exists. I guess I will admit I have turned into a Office whimp.

Stay warm all
Steve


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## Allen W

SteveO
The clutch on some of the JD beaters are notorious for rusting together. If it has been setting for awhile back the nuts off that hold the tension on the clutch springs and make sure all the disks are separated, and then tighten back to specs. If the metal disks are rusty recheck the spring tension after you have ran the beater a bit.


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## Gabriel

These are my two cows. What do you think, keep them or replace?



















Grass? What's that?  We haven't had rain in 3 months. :grump:


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## agmantoo

SteveO

The weather has not been kind but I am managing or at least I think so. I have been feeding hay and holding the stockpiled grass for the cattle to graze during what I thought would be the cold portion of Winter. Come next Tuesday we should be back rotating. I know the cattle are going to welcome the shift. Each acre on the farm has some grazing since the cattle have not had access. I optimistically think I will get through the Winter. I have not bought any additional hay so I do not have a crutch to lean on.

It is good to hear that you are working on your project and that you have located some equipment. Hopefully the work is a labor of love for you. Personally I have always got a lot of satisfaction from seeing my efforts change and IMO improve the farm. Be safe and enjoy!


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

Yes, I would keep them at this time. are both of them bred? Considering the drought they look OK. Are you giving them free choice access to mineral supplements? What age are these animals?


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## Gabriel

Yes, they're both bred and are 8-9 years old. I bought them back in the fall, before I knew I was moving. No regrets though, they're docile and it's nice to know I can reasonably expect two spring calves. 

They have free choice hay and a mineral block. Were there any particular minerals recommended in this thread? I know kelp is well liked, but no supplier around here carries it and I have yet to find it at a reasonable cost online.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
I was of the opinion that the first cow in the pic was possibly a little older than 8-9, but that is fine. She should have a number of years to continue to provide calves for you. The most negative criticism that I have would be her hair coat. Hair coat is often an indicator of general health IMO. The hair coat is why I asked about the mineral supplement. Personally I no longer use mineral blocks as I think they are too difficult for the animal to consume and that the amount of minerals and vitamins are lacking. The minerals you feed also need to be formulated for the area where the animals are located. For example where I live we need more copper and phosphorus. I suggest that you give free choice access to a loose type mineral supplement. As to the formulation a feed service representative for the area you are in should be able to make some suggestions. Once you become aware of the ingredients and analysis you can shop for price. I concluded a long time ago that price is not an indicator of quality of the supplements. I have the guaranteed analysis tags off of 8 different supplement bags on my desk at time.

The animal in the second pic may have a few lice. Look at the hair near the tail head, appears there may be some missing patches.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> I was of the opinion that the first cow in the pic was possibly a little older than 8-9, but that is fine. She should have a number of years to continue to provide calves for you.


What is the average productive life span of a beef brood cow? 



agmantoo said:


> The animal in the second pic may have a few lice. Look at the hair near the tail head, appears there may be some missing patches.


I'll take a close look, thanks for pointing that out.


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## agmantoo

The average productive life span of a beef brood cow is around 14 years here. Folks have a tendency to want to get one more calf from a good cow but often that comes back to haunt. I try to provide a good quality of life for my animals but when they start to have health issues I move them out in the early stages.

Cattle lice are more active in cool weather but they can be hard to see. During hot summer weather they spend their time on the underside of the animal. If you treat do both cows.


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## trbizwiz

agmantoo said:


> The average productive life span of a beef brood cow is around 14 years here. Folks have a tendency to want to get one more calf from a good cow but often that comes back to haunt. I try to provide a good quality of life for my animals but when they start to have health issues I move them out in the early stages.
> 
> Cattle lice are more active in cool weather but they can be hard to see. During hot summer weather they spend their time on the underside of the animal. If you treat do both cows.



I have used the drenches for lice. What are some other options? or are there any?


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## trbizwiz

There has been a little talk about breeds of late. I just got this message on facebook today from the red poll association. Subject: Red Poll featured on the Today Show 12/29
Red Poll Beef to Be Featured on the Today Show
Wednesday, December 29, during the 8 am hour (EST) of the Today show

Here is what Ben Mims, Assistant Kitchen Director said from the (SAVEUR) magazine:
"And I&#8217;m actually not sure what they will say about the (Red Poll) breed itself. The meat will be featured along with 9 others as kind of a &#8220;Food Trends of 2011&#8221; thing. If I could guess, I would say the most Jim will talk about is where the breed comes from, why it&#8217;s so special, and/or why chefs love it so much...two or three sentences at most since he&#8217;ll have to describe all the other 9 products as well, in under 4 minutes. I wish I could give more details, but when we&#8217;ve done these things in the past, that&#8217;s usually how they go. Again, the segment is slated to run on Wednesday, December 29, during the 8 am hour (EST) of the Today show."

Ben Mims
Assistant Kitchen Director
SAVEUR


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## sticky_burr

lice .. diatomous earth?? is good for mites lice n stuff .. maybe if you can figure how to get it all over them .. or garlic in feed to drive them off


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## godsgapeach

Hi, all. I have NOT disappeared. My computer bit the dust. 
Just wanted to pop in and say Merry Christmas to everybody.
Hope all is well with you all!

Oh and Gabriel (were you looking for Angus in the Tennessee area?) ... There's a Georgia Ag Extension guy who is also a rancher who has blacks grassfed. Don't know if you'd want to travel to the Carrollton area (west GA) to get them, but he might know somebody in the Tennessee area who could help you out. He's the "cattle guy" for the state and he's pretty well known. http://www.hodgeranch.com


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## Gabriel

godsgapeach said:


> Hi, all. I have NOT disappeared. My computer bit the dust.
> Just wanted to pop in and say Merry Christmas to everybody.
> Hope all is well with you all!


Merry Christmas to you also! 



godsgapeach said:


> Oh and Gabriel (were you looking for Angus in the Tennessee area?) ... There's a Georgia Ag Extension guy who is also a rancher who has blacks grassfed. Don't know if you'd want to travel to the Carrollton area (west GA) to get them, but he might know somebody in the Tennessee area who could help you out. He's the "cattle guy" for the state and he's pretty well known. http://www.hodgeranch.com


Cool, thank you. He's quite a ways from where we'll be, but I'm looking through his links right now. He does have some nice looking cattle.


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## godsgapeach

Gabriel said:


> Cool, thank you. He's quite a ways from where we'll be, but I'm looking through his links right now.


I'm just thinking he might be able to point you in the direction of a cattleman or a contact nearer your destination. It sure wouldn't hurt to contact him and ask.


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## Gabriel

How much sq. footage should I allot in the first year, per animal unit, per day? I know, it depends! But on a year 'round average, what will it take? I can get some pictures of the pasture if you'd like. 

We've got 4 pastures that are permanently fenced, most of it is in excellent shape. Water has been run to a lot of it, there's 5-6 spots with faucets/waterers, so my big concern right now is how much acreage I need to dedicate to rotational grazing. I was thinking I'd set up the e-fence inside the existing pastures and this first year would make hay out of the open pasture.


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## trbizwiz

Of course it depends on your climate and weather, but the rule of thumb around my neck of the woods is 2 acres per cow calf pair so that would work out to roughly 2800 square feet per day allowing 30 days rest for the grass. Now depending on your forage type and quality and the season your grazing that will all vary. A cool season grass in the spring with ample moisture will not require 30 days of recovery, a warm season grass in the spring will need more. The opposite holds true in the summer. And if you have a droit like most had last year then all rules if thumb are out and you will likely need hay unless you have extra ungrazed ground. 
The point is good grazing is not a math problem you can solve with a calculator. But you can start with the average low stocking rate in your area and assume poor soil and drought into your equation. Stock based on that. It will give you wiggle room for the grazing errors that you WILL make. Believe me I am still making them. Then adjust stocking rate as your land and skills improve. When you have good soil balance and a healthy stand of forage with good grazing Practices you'll be drought tolerant. But you'll never be disaster proof. 
At the end of the day you will likely need to feed gay early on in your education but don't let the animals suffer to stay on an all grass diet. Learn feed and move on. Eventually your skills will improve and you can be like Agman. That's what we are all shooting for. That's why we all follow. Just don't expect to read a few pages and get it perfect the first time. Even Agman would have a learning curve on your farm with your animals in your climate. He pretty much tells that to everyone not in his area. 

Best of luck in your endevor. Just be patient and enjoy the process.


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## ArmyDoc

I don't think you are going to be able to run Cattle on as few acres in Texas, as you can on the east coast. From what I've read, a good estimate is ~30% less land than someone not using MIG grazing.

Here, in the south east, in good pasture I've been told you need 2 acres per cow calf pair. I think Agmantoo is running ~1.5 since using MIG (he will probably chime in soon and give the real number.) What do your neighbors require where you live? If they are requiring 4 acres per cow/calf pair, I would estimate 3. If they are requiring more or less, adjust accordingly.


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## Gabriel

Thank you, gentlemen. 

A neighbor here said 2 per cow/calf, but he doesn't do MIG. Everything was mowed in the fall, so there's no stockpile to work with... but also no severe weed problems. I'm not complaining.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel,

You got some good advice from trbizwiz. Until you get fully acquainted with your place and its ability to produce tread lightly. Use the rule of thumb the locals use and set your goals higher. It is imperative to never stress your animals or permit them to lower their body condition score below 5. You will always want to produce what your farm is capable of producing and have the cattle to rebreed on schedule. Initially I suggest you see have far you can go in the Fall/winter before having to rely on hay and how soon you can come off hay in the Spring. Keep increasing your goals until you can make it through the Winter to Spring growth is underway. As this happens you should come to realize that in the rest of the year you may have too much feed and thus you can increase your herd head count. If two acres will feed a cow/calf for conventional producers, you should be able to in time to carry a cow and her calf with the calf being marketed around 8 months, for the entire year and on 1 1/2 acres or less. Moisture will always impact your accomplishments. That being said you need to keep some hay on reserve until you truly build your confidence and even then some for emergencies. My memory is not the best but as I recall when I started I had 50 head of heifers and no calves. I fed grass from mid to late March to sometime in late Oct to early Nov plus 300 round bale through Winter. I have increased the grass acreage a little over time but now I am feeding 100 breeding age animals plus an average of 50 to 60 calves at all times on an average year with rain on 1.4 acres and no hay. I think you can do the same in time. I had some startup rotational grazing visitors at the farm yesterday and we did a rough measurement of what was being fed for the days allocation of stockpiled grass and we concluded we were feeding .51 acres of stockpiled grass and some minimal clover to the entire herd.


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## trbizwiz

I have been toying with the idea of irrigation for 4 acres. I was origianlly planning on a portable irrigator. But Iam thinking now I may buy the coiled black pipe and tie into my water line at various points, then put fixed raised sprinklers every 60 feet or so with various shut off points and bypasses to irrigate in zones. I think I can get it all done for under 2K. Though I havent sourced the parts as of yet. Does anyone have any experience with any particular sprinkler head the has a good spray distance and pattern, but is durable and reliable? 
I am planning on having my whole system above ground, and i'll just blow the lines out for winter with a shop vac. I do this with my swimming pool and its quite effective. I have about 1000 feet of 2 inch line in zones on my pool and the shop vac bolws the lines out in under an hour.
I havent laid out the system yet, but I am guiessing I'll have about 5000 feet to get good coverage. I will follow fence lines and my paddocks are 80 feet wide or so, so I wont get 100% coverage, but it will be in the 90% range.


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## SteveO

Evening if you have the pressure look at a traveling sprinkler such as a Smith sb140 it depends what you have for pressure. I used a large one to water a new tree farm it had 1200ft of hose and sprayed a 123ft radius. self propelled and self contained relocate it with your lawn tractor. and a 2" feed should spray the full width

Steve


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## bigbluegrass

This thread or sticky is great! It only took me 2 weeks to read through it. What a wealth of information.

I started my rotational grazing last spring in March. I ran out of grass in September:shocked:. I learned so much in one year just trying it out. Of course, I didn't find this website until after all that. Here is what I learned the hard way. I should have been moving them faster. The pasture I went through in May I didn't get back to until September. I went too slow and let them eat the grass too low. I also didn't go to "the tallest grass next" as agmantoo says to do. Instead I rotated to the places that were convenient and let some of the pasture get way ahead of the cows in other places. I needed to move a little faster or do more mowing. The weeds took off and got above the grass in July and I should have got the cows back on it. I think too slow can be a bad thing. I could have grazed a little more after September, but the grass didn't grow back very well in the fall. I didn't want to hurt it so I left 3" or so (less in many places). It was very dry here from July to November. I had 1" of rain in July (below average, but not terrible). Nothing in August, nothing in September and nothing in October - rough fall. From what agmantoo posted that is about the worst no rain timing you can get. I think a dry spring would be better - but I haven't been through that either. All my fall planted annual ryegrass seed is still laying on the ground - well what the birds didn't eat. That did not help at all. I wish I had planted some summer annuals, like crabgrass in June. It would have probably took off and still been fine in the heat, or at least better. I never set up lanes like Agmantoo recommends. Instead I just used a several Obrien reels with polywire on them and set everything up with step in posts and pigtail posts. It got me going and I gained so much experience. I think in a few years, when I know what I am doing better I will set up the lanes and final fencing and waterers and all that. In the meantime, I would suggest to anyone out there who is sitting on the fence and not sure. Take a couple hundred bucks, get a good charger, a few dozen pigtail posts, a couple dozen step in posts, a couple rolls of polywire and a reel of some sort and just start doing it. Once your cows know what you are doing, they are so easy to move. You see results so fast. In May I thought there was no way I could get through all the grass I had. I have never had waist high grass here. Ever. Not even in patches. It just took off without any cows to keep it eaten into the ground. It is just amazing. I will keep learning and keep reading on here. Thank you to everyone who shared.


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## SCRancher

bigbluegrass - you and I have learned the same lesson about going too slow and letting the cows take too much. I would have beaten you posting the lesson but I could not post when I finally signed up.

OK Here is my story. 
ME: I grew up on postage sized lots in major and mid-sized cities - never farmed but have had Veggie Gardens since I purchased my own house 16 years ago.
I have never owned livestock - just dogs and cats.

My Property:
I purchased 81.5 acres of which 39.5 has been planted in cotton for many many years. The property is a rectangle with straight sides except for a creek border which meanders. The soils are sandy clay and silt clay loams. There was basically no organic matter left in the soils as far as I can tell.
The property not in field is 50% mature hard woods, 35% 10 year old clear cut, and 15% flooded by beavers.

I lucked out and had 2 grants that applied to my property due to a creek running as one of my borders.

Grant 1: cost share converting from row crop to permanent pasture - I went with MaxQ Fescue (can still see the rows), Had the property disked, sprayed, and soil test came back with 2,200 pounds per acre lime recommended. I applied 2k pounds per acre - I was supposed to fertilize but that was when the fertilizer spike hit so everyone said don't and I have not yet (5th year now that 2011 is here).

During the years I was building my fence after my pasture had been planted I would bush hog 2-3 times per year keeping it as high as it would go. I DID let it go to seed and ripen each year but I still don't know if that was good or bad.

Grant 2: Paid for all supplies and I provided labor (that's the way it worked out anyway) - perimeter fencing all 80 acres, main charger, cross fencing, 6,000 ft of 2 inch water lines with plasson hydrants every 200 feet, and a well. The goal was to keep the livestock out of the creek.

My fence:
Perimeter is 6 strand of HT 200k wire with top and 3rd from top electrified. 6 inch x 8 foot wood posts every 25 feet (over kill - only need them every 40-50 feet) I used a hydraulic post pounder to set my posts - this was AWESOME and scary. If the ground had moisture posts went in very nice - some in 3-5 hits - imagine that driving a 6 inch diameter post 3 feet into the ground in that few hits. The dryer the soil got the harder it became. In the summer I basically can't drive posts this way - my ground is simply too hard when it dries out. 

It took me 2 1/2 years to finish my fence and water lines - I had to get 2 extensions to my grant. I did all the fence work myself except the well. My wife helped me for a day or 3 but that was all. I finished up at the beginning of 2009. 

Fence Design:
Since I have a rectangle that is roughly 800 x 2600 feet I decided to create 4 lanes - each 200 feet wide by 2600 feet long. I'll call them lanes 1 - 4. At each end of the lanes I have 20 foot gaps in the cross fence (single strand hot HT wire). These 20 foot gaps have spring gates - basically a spring that extends 20 feet and collapses to 2 1/2 feet that just dangles to the ground when not in use (not hot if not connecting across the gap).

Each lane is roughly 12 acres - except lane 4 which is shorter and odd shaped. Lane 1 has 20 - 60 feet of woods along one side and 60 x 200 feet of woods at the back. Lane 2 has 60 x 200 woods at the back. Lane 3 has 100 x 200 woods at the back and 60 x 200 woods in the middle.
Lane .... well I'm really not sure how big it is since it's odd shaped. My best guess is it's about 7 - 8 acres of pasture.

I picked this design so I could match paddock size to forage availability. When I get to the end of a lane I just turn the corner and start coming back - so I'm following an S pattern.

Water Design:
My 2x 2500 foot water lines are burried 2 feet deep under the cross fence between lanes 1 & 2 and between lanes 3 and 4, this allows each line to serve 2 lanes. Each each hydrant comes up next to a wood fence post. Typically the entire hydrant body is above the surface - I have not had any problem with freezing or cows breaking any. I HAVE broken one with the bush hog - now I leave a bit more room.

I only have 1 permanent water trough - it's in my corral, it's 150 gallon stock tank from Tractor Supply and has a tank heater in it. It is a recent addition because I had to take my herd off the pasture (more on that later).

Otherwise I have a 50 gallon stock tank (also from TS) attached to an ATV cart. I move the cart with the herd plugging into the nearest hydrant. This care is also where I have been supplying the mineral supplement however that will change as the salt in the supplement is eating my cart.

I was using Hudson water valves - they could fill the trough faster than the cows could drink. The only problem I have is that they occasionally don't shut off so it overflows then the cows make a real mess around the trough resulting in a bare spot. I have since switched to a more reliable design however it is not a full flow valve and the cows can overwhelm and drain the trough. I'm still searching for a better alternative.

Both of my stock tanks are made of black poly.

My Herd:
I was told by my county extension agent that I either needed to get "junk" or go high end - there was no money in the middle. He recommended I purchase all my stock out of a single herd. In November 2009 I found my starter herd - 10 registered black angus cows - all between 5-7 months pregnant.

I bought a bull (finally) in November. He's also registered black angus - he's 2 years old and currently has an infection in his jaw (soft tissue not bony) that my vet is treating.

I knew nothing (and still know very little) about cattle.
My cows when purchased weighted between 1450 - 1750 pounds. These are cows of various ages born between 2004 - 2006. I'm not sure what frame size they are because until I started reading this thread I didn't know there was a frame size. I'll be trying to find out - I'll have the bull today (vet appointment) and he's a little shorter than my smallest cow.

Grazing:
I started grazing stockpiled forage in November - it took them till January to move through 10 acres of pasture. Like bigbluegrass I believe now that I was not allocating enough and/or moving too infrequently. They basically grazed down to 1-2 inches. I'm sure the cows were losing body condition but I just didn't have enough of an eye for it. The calfs started to drop in January and I lost the first one as it dropped on the coldest day - into a slush puddle. I struggled for 3 days trying to keep that poor thing alive even taking it to the vet after 2 days where they pumped IV, Anti-inflammatory, and colostrum into it. I then moved the herd to high ground woods in section 3 and kept them there (moving poly fences to give them new forage every day). They made a MESS of the pasture with super plugging and destruction of the pasture which I didn't replant. They stayed in section 3 until the 2nd week of April when the last calf dropped.

3 bulls, 6 heifers with 1 bull lost.

Again like bigbluegrass after I got back to rotational grazing I would leave them too long where they would graze too short. Then I ended up with over-mature poor forage while the cows were quickly losing body condition. I made it to mid September before my poor grazing practices and weather did me in and I started to feed Hay. 

I was hoping for September rain but it never came - and the few rain storms in November all missed me - I may have gotten 1/4 of in inch in November. Then end of September/Beginning of November the 1-2 inches of grass I did have was reduced to dirt by Army Worms. I was taken by surprise - at the end of November I had a dirt pasture - it recovered some during December but my hay ran out and I let the cows graze again while I searched for hay. I have about 1/2 of an inch at this time.

My vet said I needed to fertilize my pastures - I soil tested and my pH is 6.3 and 6.8 so no lime is called for. I need 40 lb per acre of P & K. I decided that I really don't want to buy N so at the beginning of November I bought an ATV broadcast spreader (Moultre) and spread 75 lb Durana, 75 lb of Advantage Ladino, and 150 lb of Kenland Red along with 250 lb of MaxQ. The intermittent and light November rains I think caused most of my red clover to germinate - and die. I think lanes 1-3 may have sufficient success with durana and ladino clovers - I didn't spread any durana or ladino in section 4 - I'm going to frost seed that toward the end of the month.

I didn't see any new grass and little clover - I'm hoping that it will come up in the spring for a nice surprise for me but I am counting on it being pretty much a failure.

I have a 6ft x 6ft chain drag that I use to bust up manure and I used in aggressive mode in November to expose soil for the seeding. I bought this new from Agri-South for 99 bucks - a FAR better price ($450) from anywhere else.

This thread has been great information and I thought I would contribute.
Summary of MY Noob Lessons:
1) Move cattle faster through paddocks leaving more behind. (shooting for 4 inches next year)
2) Get pastures off pasture into sacrifice area when plugging conditions set in.
3) Repair bare spots ASAP
4) Keep a better eye on cattle condition

I'll add more after people have had time to digest this initial LONG post.

EDIT:
Oh I spent the last 6 weeks fencing along the creek - I had not done this even though I had the supplies - I just had 2 strands of wire at the creek side of lane 4 to keep them out of the rest of the property.
I finished up the creek fence over the weekend and turned 7 cows and 2 remaining calfs into this 40ish acres to eat what they can find - I think there is a good month or more forage in this area. The other 3 cows are with the bull for company while he is being treated for his jaw infection.


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## Hollerhavenfarm

OK another new guy here - took about 10 days to read all the posts. WOW what good info. I knew some stuff, but have changed some of my plans after reading this thread.

The short story because I type to slow.

141 acres 40 fields and 100 wooded. Bought it 4 years ago. 
Been letting the neighbor cut the hay off the last few years and plant corn. All Organic.
Started fencing in Nov 2010 for a rotational grazing set up. Have to use a post hole digger due to the slate. Soil is in poor shape little organic matter. Ph is almost 5.6. 
Soil test was sent but no other info. 

The plan. Start out with about 10 head to supplement the farming income form the pastured poultry I started 2 yrs ago. Just trying not to loose a ton money- I still work. 

Now the big question. After reading much info. I was leaning more on the salad bar concept and not seeding. Salatin is more about the minimal inputs, but makes hay, keeps the cows under shelter. With forty acres and a small herd can I stock pile enough 
in zone six to make it through winter?

By the why I converted to black hides for sale value. And will sell feeder calves instead of trying to raise and market grass feed beef to the local community.


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## bigbluegrass

SCRancher - Glad to hear I am not the only one. Your stocking rates seem very reasonable. It sounds like we just both did the exact same thing. I should have known better. Hindsight:bash: There is always next year:sing: I keep telling myself that anyway. Spring can't come fast enough for me. I do enjoy walking out and seeing the grass growing. I think the bottom line is - you have to leave 3-4" of grass to keep a good solid stand. Grazing to 1/2" lets weeds and everything else get in there. I have one spot that I left long, because I finished a calf on it and I didn't want to force him to eat the bottom of the grass. That is the only place I have that has green grass right now. I also suspect there is a shallow spring there, because it was green all through the dry months. But the grass may just have a better root system.

Anyway, thanks for sharing SCRancher. I hope your clover has some fight in it or maybe it didn't all germinate and you will still have some other seeds sprouting in the spring. I have a lot of seed laying out there right now that I am hoping is still viable in the spring. Just have to see. I can't wait to have another shot at this next year.


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## trbizwiz

Nice write up


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## agmantoo

Let me use this opportunity to welcome you new folks to the site!

Also let me reiterate that as an unconventional feeder calf producer, I will always be in the minority when in the presence of those doing it the way of their ancestors. So will you!

I know what I do works for me and I feel certain that a variation of my practices can be beneficially applied outside of where I reside.

I am often to blunt with my responses but it takes a lot of typing to be overly polite. I read the recent posts above with interest and have a few inputs.

bigbluegrass...you seem to have a grasp on the challenges you encounter. Drought impacts all of us and for that reason we need an emergency plan in position at all times. My plan is to hold some good stockpiled forage until Winter is over if possible. Additionally I do have 50 round bales stored under shelter. I keep my cattle in body condition score of 5 or above if possible.

SCRancher Not knowing where you reside in SC it seems to me that the clovers were planted marginally late. I do understand the drought and its impact on timing. I experienced the same thing. Did you rid your place of all preexisting fescue prior to planting the maxq ? IMO it is imperative that you build your orgainic matter on your land. Instead of commercial can you get any chicken litter? Up to 6 tons per acre will make your pastures appear that you are in paradise. Where newly planted forages are grazed, the movement of the herd needs to be extremely frequent (daily). The forages must be given a chance to establish a root system. Without the root system in dry weather the plants will perish.
For rotational grazing your cattle are too large. Cattle that are in the 1050 to 1100 lb weight range and give only moderate milk are best suited. 

Hollerhavenfarm Stop giving hay away. A large round bale has $28 worth of fertilizer in it from what I have read. You need to improve the PH a bit. What is the main grass forage you are producing? As for year round grazing. Depending on how much snow you get. If the snow does not amass above 12 inches and you stockpile enough forage you should be able to get by. As stated above your do need an emergency plan. Old stored in the dry hay will suffice provided the cattle are in good condition initially. There should be no need for you to bale. Just buy some hay when it is cheap for this purpose.

Summary
If you are doing this profit, disregard most of the inputs from conventional producers/advisers. Remember, you are marketing the production that your specific place is able to provide, no more and no less. It is pounds/acre and price/lb and nothing to do with individual calf size or specific breed. You have no influence on market price as that is set by the market. You do have an impact on costs of production and that is what you need to influence/control. Properly done you will not only remain in business while others are faltering , you will make a profit.


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Agmantoo

Thanks for the reply - I find your straight forward bluntness very informative and helpful. 
Yes I have been giving it away- soil fertility also. It is a long story. Made some big changes for the future.
The bottom ground, 6 acres, is a mix of grasses and clover + weeds, I have been mowing to about 6 in to keep weeds down and allow the grass and clover to take over for 2 years. It is better than before. The hay fields, 20 acres, are broom, orchard, timothy, and a little alfalfa and clover. The rest is a newly seeded broom grass and alfalfa mix. This was put in with a drill and was seeded with a barley planting that was harvested last summer. It will need more seed added, in the fall it was mostly ragweed. 

The emergency plan was to build a 3 sided shelter and fill 1/2 with purchased avg quality round bales round. The hay would be protected on the open side with a tarp and a a few strands of electric fence to keep the cows from trampling. I would then feed like a bunk or clamp by moving the fence to allow the cows a daily ration. To maintain condition I was going to get some 4x4 alfalfa balage if necessary. 

Most winters we get a good nor easter, that will dump snow past the 12 in mark. I was setting up to carry 60 days on hay 30 for sure and 30 for emergency reserve. 

I would like your opinion on mobile water in the form a tank moved from paddock to paddock. 

Also there has not been much discussion of baldies as a good option to get the hybird vigor. Sorry still have a soft spot for polled herfords- my uncle raised them for years. 
Any thoughts?


----------



## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> SCRancher Not knowing where you reside in SC it seems to me that the clovers were planted marginally late. I do understand the drought and its impact on timing. I experienced the same thing. Did you rid your place of all preexisting fescue prior to planting the maxq ? IMO it is imperative that you build your orgainic matter on your land. Instead of commercial can you get any chicken litter? Up to 6 tons per acre will make your pastures appear that you are in paradise. Where newly planted forages are grazed, the movement of the herd needs to be extremely frequent (daily). The forages must be given a chance to establish a root system. Without the root system in dry weather the plants will perish.
> For rotational grazing your cattle are too large. Cattle that are in the 1050 to 1100 lb weight range and give only moderate milk are best suited.


My property is near Chester SC - 25 minutes south of Charlotte, NC - close enough to you to want to make a trip up to see your operation at some point in the near future. 

There really was no Fescue to get rid of - the property has been in cotton and sprayed with herbicides for so long that only last year did some crab grass start to encroach from the clear cut.

I looked around some (not a whole lot) looking for chicken litter - I would MUCH rather go that route.

If I can't - what would you recommend - I was really considering 200 LB/acre of triple 17 in Feb, May, and Sept and then NOT doing any fertilizer again - hoping to get a good stand of clover established.

I don't know what my cattle weigh at the moment except my bull and he's around 1600 lb at the moment - I only know that because I just acquired him in November.

Clover planting - yea I knew I was pushing it but we had NO rain in September to plant into - now I wish I would have simply waited and frost seeded - I'm not sure what the result of my planting will be now.

I am considering re-planting it all again this winter - I really don't want to go another year with out clover because clover - nitrogen - growth. Recommendations?

I am also considering a Chicory test plot for some summer slump forage.


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## SCRancher

Ok got a bit more serious about poultry litter and found a place.
The one company I have found so far is about 90 miles from me. They recommended 2 - 2 1/2 tons per acre to start with a rough price of $25.00 per ton - so about $2,000. This is not spread and I would have to either hire it done or do it myself (I don't have the equipment to do it). I THINK I may be able to get someone I know to spread it for 6 dollars per acre so that would be an additional $240 - if I'm correct in the figure.

I know you said 6 tons but he was telling me that's too much at one time.

Thoughts anyone? I may be able to find someone closer however the closest chicken house I could find is ~ 50 miles from me so I may not get a much better price.

Currently there would be a 3 week delay....


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## trbizwiz

Hmm I may have to have some litter spread. I did not realize it was do affordable. I have chicken houses in sight of my Place.


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## bigbluegrass

agmantoo said:


> Let me use this opportunity to welcome you new folks to the site!
> 
> bigbluegrass...you seem to have a grasp on the challenges you encounter. Drought impacts all of us and for that reason we need an emergency plan in position at all times. My plan is to hold some good stockpiled forage until Winter is over if possible. Additionally I do have 50 round bales stored under shelter. I keep my cattle in body condition score of 5 or above if possible.
> 
> Summary
> If you are doing this profit, disregard most of the inputs from conventional producers/advisers. Remember, you are marketing the production that your specific place is able to provide, no more and no less. It is pounds/acre and price/lb and nothing to do with individual calf size or specific breed. You have no influence on market price as that is set by the market. You do have an impact on costs of production and that is what you need to influence/control. Properly done you will not only remain in business while others are faltering , you will make a profit.


Agmantoo you are right on as always. :bow: My cows are staying in decent condition on hay. I bought the hay early, in August, and got a good price. It was obvious we weren't getting rain anytime soon. 
I probably will make money on the hay if it was worth $28 for fertilizer since I only paid $20 a bale:nanner: 
I was told that August 15 is the deadline to either have your stockpiled area set aside or buy hay. On August 15 this year, I wasn't growing any grass and hadn't been for a month. So the choices were to buy hay or sell the cows. I did a little of both. I unloaded some underperforming stock and bought hay that will take me to mid-April. I can easily get back on grass then. Is it better to give the grass a few week headstart before I start grazing in the spring? Or longer? Keeping in mind it is grazed pretty close right now. Or can I just get the cows back on it once it starts actively growing? I know the plants use a lot of energy to send up the shoots. I don't want to restress grass that I have been torturing for the past few years:hysterical: It might just give up and die


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## ArmyDoc

Agmantoo,

You've posted a lot on the fencing and moving for MIG grazing. What about when it comes time to take the cattle to market? What kind of handling facilities do you have / recommend for the person just starting out?


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## SCRancher

trbizwiz said:


> Hmm I may have to have some litter spread. I did not realize it was do affordable. I have chicken houses in sight of my Place.


Yea when I was talking to the guy I was like - hmm well I'm not certain - I'll look into it. Then I pulled up the average analysis on a ton of litter - something like 60-60-40 is the average not including the trace, lime, and organic matter values. - 25 bucks for 60-60-40 per acre.... yea I'll take it.

I think I'll do 2 tons this year per acre and then for the next few years do 1 ton per acre.


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## agmantoo

Hollerhavenfarm,

You are located outside my comfort zone for me to comment on your forages. If you can locate someone that does rotational grazing nearby possibly they can share some insight.

As for watering the cattle from a method of mobile waterers I have no experience. I have seen portable waterers that were fed from above ground piping but that does not interest me. The water in the summer would be too hot from sun exposure of the piping. I had a person to tell me that by running the piping along the partition fence in the grass that would shade the pipe thus eliminating the problem. I know for certain that will not work as the cattle eat the forage from under the partition fencing. I suggest that you concentrate on the layout of your place and see if by using a few lanes you can create a method for the cattle to not have to travel much over 800 ft to access water. Also remember that in hot weather the cattle will consume a lot of water and good water is more important than feed in the short haul.

Baldies will sell for sure. Finding Hereford brood cows of suitable preferred size for rotational grazing may be a problem. People do it all the time but I prefer not to put a Hereford bull on Angus cows. I want NO birthing issues.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc

Hi, 

I have a homemade working pen of my design that is made from recycled guardrail and part of a grain bin. The headgate is a purchased Prifert Squeeze Chute and Headgate . I have searched my computer and can only locate one pic.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

Reread my post regarding the chicken litter. It states "up to 6 tons per acre". I also own land in SC and I am aware of some of the soil conditions and in places the surplus of sand. I also know that if you want to REALLY grow some great forages you are going to have to put the amendments on the pasture. The quicker you get the soil to a highly productive state the sooner you will start experiencing the benefits. Once you bring the soils up in nutrients the manure from your cattle plus maybe a single ton of chicken litter per year will be plenty. You will not regret going from commercial fertilizer to chicken litter regardless. If at all possible get the litter spread by mid to late Feb. 2011.


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## agmantoo

bigbluegrass

The better headstart you give the grass the better the grass will be. At this time the roots are in balance with the growth above ground. Any delay in grazing will promote root growth which will in turn promote top growth. The only caution is to not let all your forage get to far ahead of your cattle and their ability to consume the Spring growth. If you will move the animals daily as soon as the growth gets a few inches tall then start some grazing early. Do not let the cattle regraze any regrowth of the forage that was just consumed. Always move them before this happens.


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## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> "up to 6 tons per acre"


My bad - Yea I'll put between 2-3 tons per acre now and then evaluate again possibly as early as the fall.

Thanks for the timing information also - I was wondering. Regarding timing - I still have 50 lb of clover seed that I have now to spread. I was planning late January frost seeding. Any recommendation on timing of spreading the clover combined with spreading the litter?

On the cover I have already spread - should I wait and see what I have or go ahead and get more clover seed and spread?


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

You need to get the grass established before getting too much clover. I have no idea of how long the germination will last with the clover seed you have not planted but I think I would wait to late Summer to sow it. The litter will take care of the immediate fertilizer needed for the grass.


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## SCRancher

I read the entire thread and I wanted to share some counter points to minor things.

I thought I read that Agmantoo likes the Hayes style tensioners - I tried them at first but was not satisified with what I had. I then tried the tensioners that you can use a wrench on and I liked them better. For me it was easier to loosen the tensioners if I wanted to and I just seem to prefer them.

Tension Springs - I use them and I like them. I had a HUGE tree fall on my 6 strand perimeter fence - it took all the wires to the ground. I cut the tree off the fence and it sprang back up. I did have to re-tension them a little.

End Post/Corner Insulators - I use the black wrap around tubing with the metal strip embedded. It's only been a couple of years but so far no shorts and they are holding up fine.

Fence charger - if you can afford it get one with a remote - I LOVE my remote - I can turn the fence on/off from anywhere I have a wire leading back to the charger - it works with the poly wire also. I have a Stafix Charger that is remote ready and came with the remote. It's not for everyone I know because it was expensive but to me it was money well spent.

Oh I would love to post some pictures but I don't know how... any way to embed a picture on the site or do I have to link to an external site?


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## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> SCRancher
> 
> You need to get the grass established before getting too much clover. I have no idea of how long the germination will last with the clover seed you have not planted but I think I would wait to late Summer to sow it. The litter will take care of the immediate fertilizer needed for the grass.


Well in lane 4 I didn't plant any white clover - only the red - I saved the white back in that lane in part because I knew it was getting too late and in part because I wanted to see frost seed vs fall seed.


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Agmantoo

Thanks for the reply. I know a guy that is rotational grazing sheep. I will talk with him and see what he can do to help. Working on the lime now to raise ph.
I got a lead on layer house litter might be able to kill 2 birds with one stone.

I am going to try herford cows and rent an angus bull. Maybe AI.
As I understand it he need not be homozygous black as it is dominate as is the white face from the herford mom.

Wanted to take a special minute and thank you for all the time and mentoring you have done for all of us. I have been trying for 4 years to get the local farmers to share a little and educate but just know have got one to open up.
I offered to help put hay up , feed and milk what ever needs done. 
You have been more help in just one day and you have my sincere thanks.


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## godsgapeach

Welcome to all the new guys! You've found the right mentor for rotational grazing!

I've followed as many of Agman's instructions as I possibly could, and I'm actually still grazing (with the exception of this week with the ice sheet we're stuck under--they're getting some hay). We've made it from late April/early May to now and I'm only using about 50-70 acres (40 cow calf pairs). Of course we did have a fair year for rain, so I'm sure drought years would prove a little different. But I'm pleased with almost the first full year.

Best of luck to you!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

Good to hear from you! 
I certainly am pleased to know you made it this far into the new year with your rotational grazing. I have to ask what your Dad thinks of this achievement? Best regards
Agmantoo


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## SCRancher

Well I have learned a LOT from this thread and I appreciate the knowledge shared by all. I'm looking forward to learning more and sharing what I can. Honerable mention to Agmantoo OFC - already helping me.


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## godsgapeach

He's loving it, Agman. He was amazed especially with the cooperation he got from the herd I'm working with when he ran them up to sell calves. He couldn't believe it only took him 1 hour--from getting them from the far end of the pasture to the lot, to sorting, to loading. (He didn't tell me ahead of time that he was working them or I'd have had them up for him--he just wanted my approval to make sure he didn't sell any I wanted to keep.)

Also, he got nearly $1000 more than he was expecting/hoping for which is always a good thing. He's definitely caught the vision and is eager to continue adding to the paddocks. But we're working on waterers first where we've already got paddocks set up.

Crazy question ... did you ever check into the 9 strand poly braid (mine came from Powerflex)? I have to say, if I have the option, I won't buy the twisted stuff again. When I remember I'll take pictures of the ends of braid that I've used since getting started and the 6 strand twist that I bought (locally) back in September. The braid doesn't fray or unravel at all like the other!

I've taken some pics of the newest crop of calves too. Just haven't had a chance to upload them. So far every single one is black--so apparently some of the last ones didn't belong to the "new" bull. Everybody looks good! I'll post them when I get a chance.

Hope 2011 is good to you!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

Good to hear your father was pleased. As time passes he will become more satisfied with the technique.

I called with the intent to buy some of the braided polywire just recently. IMO those folks at Powerflex could be more attentive at "running the store" . The phone rang and a message indicated some would be with me shortly. After wasting my cell phone minutes I finally hung up. I then called on of the contact number for the owner and found out he was home and the store was unmanned. Knowing me, you realize I got miffed and called Kencove. I remain keenly interested in a braided polywire and when I find another source or Powerflex gets on board with the rest of the world to where I can order online and they can process a credit card I may try them again. Meanwhile Kencove came through with free shipping and the sizable order I placed will hold me for some duration. PS...Lowes is no longer carrying the pigtail posts.


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## godsgapeach

I don't understand either why Powerflex hasn't caught up with the rest of the world and internet accessibility. I've had good experience with them the times I've ordered, but I still don't know what to think about the "new" posts. I've still got a good many of the solid ones.

That was another thing I need to take a pic of. Daddy winged one with the bushhog--it flung off all the pins (that post was on the perimeter so has 5 strands of high tensile--and even though I had done the twist, there was just too much force and they were just GONE lol), but the post, while crooked, is still standing and hooked right back up with no issues. It didn't snap. 

I'm disappointed about Lowes not having the pigtails. I've got bunches, so I haven't looked lately, but I also keep finding uses for them. They come in handy all over the place. 

I'll see if I can find the 9-strand anywhere else...


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## godsgapeach

Oh one more thing I've figured out--if I need a quick jumper (I ran out of split bolts at one point), I've found that a length of underground electric fence wire works pretty well. I just strip the insulation off a few inches at each end and wrap the wire around the high tensile.


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## godsgapeach

Here is a link to something similar to powerflex's braid...
http://www.scruggsfarm.com/Gallagher-Turbo-Equibraid.html


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## SCRancher

For temporary polywire fencing and where the terrain leave a sag or carry the wire's too high I use the following posts. Occasionally I'll break the plastic top off one (think I have broken 3 so far).
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Fiberglass+Posts_detail_F38SSG.php

I get them from a local Tractor Supply store however.


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## ramiller5675

Kencove is selling a PasturePro composite post that looks like it is the same as the older solid Powerflex post.

https://www.kencove.com/fence/Composite+Posts_product.php


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## ArmyDoc

SCRancher said:


> ...I would love to post some pictures but I don't know how... any way to embed a picture on the site or do I have to link to an external site?


The only way I know is to link to an outside site. I use facebook (if you set up an account, be sure to check the privacy settings and set them to what YOU want - they tend to set them to where everyone can see anything by default). Once posted on facebook, I just go to the properties and copy the url of for the picture.


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## ArmyDoc

Hollerhavenfarm said:


> Agmantoo
> 
> I am going to try herford cows and rent an angus bull. Maybe AI.
> As I understand it he need not be homozygous black as it is dominate as is the white face from the herford mom.


The hereford white head is dominant, and the black is dominant. But if the dominant is heterozygous, it doesn't breed true when matched with a recessive. 

So, if you use a homozygous black on the hereford, all the offspring will be black baldies. If you use a non-homozygous black (heterozygous) 1/2 will be black baldies, the other half will be red-baldies. And of course, if you used a red angus, all them would be red-baldies.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, ArmyDoc for that headsup on Kencove's composite posts. They do look like the same thing. I just don't see any 72" ones (that's what I'd used on the perimeter so I could do 5 strands), but I'm glad to know they're out there somewhere.


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## SCRancher

ramiller5675 said:


> Kencove is selling a PasturePro composite post that looks like it is the same as the older solid Powerflex post.
> 
> https://www.kencove.com/fence/Composite+Posts_product.php


At those prices I can go to Tractor Supply and buy 6 inch x 8 foot pressure treated posts (Comparing to the 6 foot composite post). 

The question I have is why use a composite post over a wood post?


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Army Doc

You are correct - Thanks - Should have thought about it a bit.
Going to have to keep a homozygous bull around down the generations or I will get a red calf once in a while. makes sense.


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## trbizwiz

They will last forever and they bend or flex if they get run over by a tree or bull, rather than break.


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## ramiller5675

SCRancher said:


> At those prices I can go to Tractor Supply and buy 6 inch x 8 foot pressure treated posts (Comparing to the 6 foot composite post).
> 
> The question I have is why use a composite post over a wood post?


How much time does it take to install a wooden post?
How much time does it take to haul the wooden posts home for installation?
How much does it cost to buy a post driver to drive wooden posts?
How much would the insulators cost for a wooden post system?
Can one person install a system with wooden posts?


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## ramiller5675

godsgapeach said:


> Thanks, ArmyDoc for that headsup on Kencove's composite posts. They do look like the same thing. I just don't see any 72" ones (that's what I'd used on the perimeter so I could do 5 strands), but I'm glad to know they're out there somewhere.


They appear to have 6' posts in 1.25", 1.5" and 1.625" diameters.


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## SCRancher

ramiller5675 said:


> How much time does it take to install a wooden post?
> How much time does it take to haul the wooden posts home for installation?
> How much does it cost to buy a post driver to drive wooden posts?
> How much would the insulators cost for a wooden post system?
> Can one person install a system with wooden posts?


I can only answer for me - I have a post driver...
Time - it depends on the soil. My soil when there is sufficient moisture once I'm at the post site it took an average of 10 minutes - some took considerable less time - others considerable more time.

Hauling home for installation - non-issue for me - I have a trailer and tractor. TSC loads the posts on the trailer and I use my tractor to pick the bundle up and drop it off.

Post driver - when I purchased mine it was around $4,800

There are many types of insulators - the majority of my perimeter fence use 6 inch finned tube insulators and a U staple. Cost is probably less than 10 cents per line. Costs go up from there depending on the type of insulators.

Can 1 person install? Yes I did - I put down in the neighborhood of 300 posts by myself.

Nice thing about a post driver - the post is solid from the moment it's put down.

I was asking a serious question about composite VS wood - I have not used composite posts so I was wondering why them vs wood (_trbizwiz_) seemed to have an answer to that question - thanks. 

What are the answers to the same questions regarding composite posts?


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## ramiller5675

I'm not sure what you mean by "...I was asking a serious question about composite VS wood ...", but needing to pay $4800 for a post driver to install 300 posts would end the idea of using wood posts for me. 

A composite post can be driven with a $20 post driver on any sort of rough terrain that you can walk to.

300 composite posts would fit in the back of a pickup, I doubt if 300 8' long wood posts would. Even if you have a trailer, there is an expense in both time and effort to hauling them home. 

A composite post doesn't need any insulators and the wire it is relatively easy to take off the post.

There are positives and negatives to any fencing system, the only way to find what is the most cost-effective method is to ask and answer questions like the ones I posed previously.


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## trbizwiz

I really like my solid powerflex composite posts. i am skeptical of the new hollow core posts. I can drive the composite posts in the spring in 1 to 2 minutes per post. I can drill and hang wire on the posts in under a minute each. So as far as installation time the are a piece of cake. A down side is when hanging a reel on the fence the posts flex quite a bit. But there are ways around this. I take the red hook and attach it to the top wire, I walk the lane and wrap the reel over the top wire on the other fence linenad then under the second from the top wire and walk back to the other fence lineand hang the reel from the second from the top wire. having it lower to the ground seems to have less leverage so the posts flex less, and you have a 2 wire break so even your smaller calves wont graze ahead. It is 2 times as much walking so a little extra time in the field.


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## trbizwiz

I just got a quote for litter delivered and spread $30 per ton. He said he will be at my place in 2 weeks, so mid Feb. I am going to try and get lime before then. Now I am only doing 4 acres so my rate might be lower if I were doing a larger area. I did not try to negotiate any either. Thats sorta out of character for me, but I probably will keep my ears open for a better deal for next year. Also I'll be taking a soil sample tonight and sending it off tomorrow, I know I am putting the cart ahead of the horse with ordering the fertilizer, but i did a sample a few years ago and I havent added much of anything over the last 3 years, other than rotational grazing the last 18 months or so.


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## SCRancher

Posts can be set with an auger also but then it is probably a 2 person job and would not be as easy or quick.

I don't know (obviously because I have never used a composite post) how strong one would be. My fence posts are not going to be bent to the ground by a bull hitting them or pushing into the wire.

I can put a lot of tension on my lines creating somewhat of a physical barrier in addition to the electric barrier.

My bull has had the vet see him 4 times in the past 10 days and has a few more visits to go. He basically has learned to ignore the poly wire enclosure - I was giving him more room than the 10 corral panels I have provide but he has come through the hot poly wire twice. Now I have him pinned in the corral panels. My point being he's one tough critter and if he really wanted to I'm sure he could come through my fence any time he wanted and I think my fence is of pretty stout construction. I wonder how much of a physical barrier the composite post fence would be.

I'm sure we all hope that our perimeter fences are not tested in that way.

As for the cost of the post driver - I'm not through with it yet - I have more to do on my creek side fence - its too wet and grown up to get the tractor back there right now so am using trees and step in posts. I plan on using the 60 or so wood posts I have left on it.

After that I am considering purchasing some adjoining property but i have to build a house out there first. There is a 140 acre parcel adjoining mine that I have my eye on and another 80 acres on the other side of the creek I may also be able to pick up - the problem is I have not yet found the right type of fertilizer for my money tree.

Once I'm through with the post driver I'll either sell it - resale value should hold up well - or I'll keep it around gathering dust like farmers have done with equipment since humans started farming.

I knew going in that I would have to build the fence alone and I didn't have anyone with other experience to draw from to even suggest composite posts.

Again I'm not saying anything negative about composite posts because that would be rather silly of me since I have never seen, felt, or used one.


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## trbizwiz

with the electric fence the idea is for the shock value to train an animal to stay in, and it has been suggested an animal that refuses to learn is not suitable for breeding stock, as most of the practices in MIG are not compatible with such an animal, or his or her offspring. temperment is a selectable trait, and as we age it becomes that much more important for our safety and labor efforts. 
The flex posts are kind of the cover 2 defence of the farming world. They are supposed to bend but not break. If an animal gets spooked it can run through the fence, but as a general rule they have no interest in testing it. If a tree gets hit by lightning or ice it will fall on the fence, when it is removed in many cases the fence will spring right back into shape. The posts will last your lifetime, so if you put in steel corners, you will only replace the high tensile every 20 or 30 years. 
Granted its not for everybody, but the powerflex posts are designed with the idea that a bigger charger will gain more than a stout fence. And with composite posts 40 to 50 feet on center their higher inital cost is off set by the fewer number of posts. And sure I guess you could space wood posts the same, and have savings that way, you will not have a physical barrier, because the wires will stretch enough to drive a truck through (unless you string them like a banjo).
Neither way of building is wrong or right, just personal preference.


----------



## ArmyDoc

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have a homemade working pen of my design that is made from recycled guardrail and part of a grain bin. The headgate is a purchased Prifert Squeeze Chute and Headgate . I have searched my computer and can only locate one pic.


Thanks Agmantoo. If you can find any other pictures, or better if you can draw a diagram, I'd love to see it. I'd been paying so much attention to planning the other aspects I haven't given any thought to how to handle the cattle for loading, sorting etc. I've been checking out a couple of sites, but there seems to be a wide range of opinion as two what you need. What do you feel is a minimal set-up? What things are good to have, and what do you feel is over-kill?


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## godsgapeach

ArmyDoc, SOMEwhere I've got some pics of Agman's setup. I'll have to see if I can track them down. I know I had them on the hard drive that died and somewhere there was a disk I saved them to. I'll see what I can find...


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc said:


> Thanks Agmantoo. If you can find any other pictures, or better if you can draw a diagram, I'd love to see it. I'd been paying so much attention to planning the other aspects I haven't given any thought to how to handle the cattle for loading, sorting etc. I've been checking out a couple of sites, but there seems to be a wide range of opinion as two what you need. What do you feel is a minimal set-up? What things are good to have, and what do you feel is over-kill?


ArmyDoc
I have the headgate/squeeze chute and the palpation cage shown here. I seldom use it. http://www.priefert.com/products/Ca...-Accessories_31/Squeeze-Chute--Model-S01_387/
Essentials IMO are a main pen for sorting animals. Then a holding pen for the animals sorted/retained and a means to permit the animals sorted/released to reenter the paddock. A means for the transport trailer to back to an empty pen and the access gates to the trailer to be opened to the empty pen. A gate separating the holding pen to the empty loading pen is required. With the trailer in place and its gates open the holding pen gate is opened and the animals being shipped are moved into the loading pen and onto the trailer. My animals as calm and though they may have never been on a trailer we load them as a group. No shouting, dogs, sticks. They are crowded against the trailer opening and usually when on goes onto the trailer the rest follow. The road for the trailer is angled such that the trailer is barely off the ground and it is easy for the animals to step into the trailer. It takes me nearly 2 hours to sort the herd and only 3 to 5 minutes to load once the trailer is in position. I know this is unclear and hopefully gapeach can find the pics. If not I will take more in the near future.


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## godsgapeach

Found 'em... I'll let Agman caption them if he wants.


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## ErinP

Something to keep in mind is numbers of cattle also affect what your facilities need to be. 
For example, at the ranch, we have about 1500 head of range cattle. Consequently, we have a professionally-made tub-and-alley system, sorting pens, loading chute, squeeze chute, maternity pens, etc, etc. The whole nine yards. 

On the other hand, at home, we have three heifers, all of whom are former bucket-calves. 
Consequently, we only have our round pen (for training horses actually) where they are used to coming in to the water tank that's currently in there. If/when we need to catch them, we walk out with a bucket of something yummy. Or catch them when they're in for a drink. 
Shots, etc. can be done with them on a halter. If/when we should have to pull a calf (perish the thought!) they can either be tied down or roped to the pickup's grill guard. 


Anyway, my point is-- don't overbuild when you're only starting out.


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## ArmyDoc

What would you consider minimal facilities for someone starting out with say a dozen feeder cattle? 

My plan (initially) is only to raise from weaned calf to market at the end of the growing season. The thought is to learn a bit more about rotating the cattle pasture, judging the pasture / amount per day, managing/handling the cattle without getting in over my head. Once I've learned more, then I can decide if I want to expand and in what direction.

(as an aside, any thoughts about this plan?)


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## godsgapeach

Well on our place there are a few different types of setups. We've got a board lot (that desperately needs reworking) that has always been the main place. And we've also got two that are just corral panels adjacent to the barbwire fence.

The bare minimum seems to be a catch pen and a chute of some sort. As long as you've got a place you can pen them up and sort them with a gate to push them into the chute, and then tunnel them onto the trailer, you can work with it.

Our 2 other herds basically work with the bare minimum you're talking about. It's sure not a fancy schmancy set up.


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## agmantoo

ArmyDoc

A Texas longhorn headgate or a Medina hinge is IMO what you need.
http://www.grangercattleco.com/medinahinge.html


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## ErinP

Army Doc, I think peach is right. 
You'll need a catch pen of some sort and chute (though you don't have to have a squeeze chute or head catch or anything necessarily... Just a funnel)
And in your pen, you'll want a gate that sorts them one direction or another so that you can separate if needs be. Ie, your pen should probably be _two_ pens. 

MOVING cattle is fairly easy. Especially yearlings. They tend to stay in a group. Pasture rotation will pretty much run itself. 
But sorting them and loading will be the more challenging part. That's what you'll need to build for.

So far as the plan to just run yearlings for a while. That's really the _best_ way to start cold. 
There are very little start up costs beyond obvious land and stock. No haying. No calving. No equipment beyond maybe a small chore tractor... 
Keep your fences tight/hot and you're set.


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## trbizwiz

Yea, I bought 2 heifers 18 months ago, and4 dairy bottle calves 12 months ago. I have been using less than bare minimum this far. When it came time to work the calves I would catch and hand pin them to the ground. Then hold them down and band dehorn and inject them with the other hand. I got all of them done in about and hour or so, but it felt like a week. I'm not a cowboy so it wasn't Teribly enjoyable for me, and presumably less so for them. I went from little calves that I had bottle fed most of their life and cared for every day and the would come up to me and let me scratch their ears and handle them, and now they won't get within 10 feet of me. Well the one mostly black one does. But the others won't. 
I had planned after that day on getting a squeeze chute, but funds are tight now, so I may try the suggestion above of building a catch pen with a lane to funnel them down. Maybe that will be cheaper for now, until I can save up for one of those beautiful blue squeeze chutes.


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## ErinP

> When it came time to work the calves I would catch and hand pin them to the ground. Then hold them down and band dehorn and inject them with the other hand. I got all of them done in about and hour or so,


You didn't need better facilities. You just needed an extra person! 
DH and I can work a single calf in about 2 minutes. :shrug:

Though I will agree, if you have no choice but to work solo, better facilities are a must.


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## trbizwiz

ErinP said:


> You didn't need better facilities. You just needed an extra person!
> DH and I can work a single calf in about 2 minutes. :shrug:
> 
> Though I will agree, if you have no choice but to work solo, better facilities are a must.




Yea, my wife wasn't terribly interested in the process and by boys are 3 & 4 so I didn't want them in the middle of that. So that just left me. I do have friends, but they dont get my enthusiasm for cattle and homesteading. Now if it were a football game or fishing, maybe.


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## godsgapeach

I didn't mention that the catch pens that are just corral panels have no stanchions or squeeze chutes. We've only got that set up in the board lot and it's as old as the hills!


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## ErinP

trbizwiz said:


> Yea, my wife wasn't terribly interested in the process and by boys are 3 & 4 so I didn't want them in the middle of that. So that just left me. I do have friends, but they dont get my enthusiasm for cattle and homesteading. Now if it were a football game or fishing, maybe.


Yeah, if you'll be working completely alone, you definitely need a bit of a set-up. 
Though my DH, reading over my shoulder, says what you _really_ need is a decent horse.


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## Gabriel

ArmyDoc said:


> My plan (initially) is only to raise from weaned calf to market at the end of the growing season. The thought is to learn a bit more about rotating the cattle pasture, judging the pasture / amount per day, managing/handling the cattle without getting in over my head. Once I've learned more, then I can decide if I want to expand and in what direction.
> 
> (as an aside, any thoughts about this plan?)


Well, I'm no expert but that's almost the same plan as mine. I'll be buying bottle calves since my start up capital is so low, but otherwise it's the same. All that to say, yes, your plan looks good. :icecream:


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## agmantoo

A short but funny to me rotational grazing event. My neighbor spoke to me over the weekend regarding his observation of the herd during the recent snow we had. The cattle are roughly 2000 +ft from the main road on a paddock area that I feed with the polywire running parallel to the blacktop. Depth perception is not the best from the road. Each day I have been moving the herd 60 to 80 ft further from the road on narrow but on very wide strips. The neighbor was concerned that since the snow nearly a week ago he had not seen any tractor tracks going there and that the cattle had been standing in the same place waiting for someone to bring them some hay and when was I going to feed them!
Here is where the cattle were eating. This is a heifer and her just born new calf. Please comment on what you think the body condition score would be for this cow. Thanks


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## trbizwiz

Wow, she is nice. Cute little fellow there too. Rump looks pretty round there to me (maybe not late spring time round, but still). Pretty hairy, but safe to assume no ribs showing. I'd say her condition is great.


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## SteveO

It looks to me like you need to continue not feeding them or they will get to fat
steve:happy0035:


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Better then a 4 pushing 5.


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## SCRancher

She looks better than all of mine and I have been stuffing hay in mine since the last week of September. 

I finally fenced in the 40 acres of clear cut/woods/old beaver ponds and most of my herd are in there eating Honeysuckle, privet bushes, reeds, and "stockpiled" native grass. Now if my bull would just get over the abscess I'll turn him and his companions loose in there as well.

Speaking to the conversation about handling facilities - my corral is made up of 10 corral panels I bought from Tractor Supply - well the other day when I went out there the bull and his 3 companions were out of the corral and 2 panels were on the ground - one a twisted wreck - not sure what I'm going to do about a more secure/studier corral area.

Here is the chute I have: http://www.for-most.com/squeezechutes.html

My vet really likes my head gate because it is straight up and down. He said the reason he likes it is because if the cow goes down in the chute it will not choke because the opening is straight. I have the model 30 head gate if you look around their site.

I picked this chute because this is what the guy I bought the cattle from was using and the county extension agent went with me to help pick out my cattle and they had a discussion about chutes, the agent liked this chute over the one he had.


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## bigbluegrass

Agmantoo, your cow in the photo looks almost identical to mine - in many ways. I would guess she is around a BCS 5. Mine are dry and on grass hay and gaining weight. They are also going to calve in a few months, so that can be a little deceiving. Considering yours just had a calf, she was probably a BCS 6 or higher before calving I would guess. Is 5 to 6 your target? That is about what I shoot for. Not overly fat but not thin either. I think it is a normal/natural BCS for no grain and good forage - for a working cow that is. A dry cow not producing anything should get fat on grass or even hay.

Wouldn't you think your neighbor would realize what you are doing by now? I do wonder about some of my neighbors who I know feed hay when you don't see a new bale go out for a few days and the cows are making noise. But if your cows are quiet I would think that would be a huge hint to him that they don't need anything. I sometimes wonder what mine think.


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## agmantoo

I had to return to the area I had the herd in mid to late December this afternoon. The weather was great and I checked on the condition of the pasture forages. A pleasant finding was that the grass that had been grazed heavily had actually recovered some even in the cold weather. I have observed that on my best ground that the plants seem to last longer in the Fall and recover earlier in the Spring than on the neighboring pastures. Has anyone else that rotational grazes observed this occurring?

Area that was grazed on Dec 26


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## trbizwiz

WOW. I havent seen that kind of growth since may. Been dry, and when moisture finally came it was cold. I am very optimistic for spring though.


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## Gabriel

This is (most) of the lease we now have. The total acreage is 60, there's a little bit that not shown up in the top left of the photo. It's roughly triangular, the line of trees between the pastures is thick enough for great shade, a little too thin imo for a windbreak, porous enough to rotate animals through with no problem.

You can somewhat see the fence lines if you look hard enough. I'm out of town and working on my wifes Mac'... bear with me as I try to figure out how to "paint" in the lines and water spots. The bottom of the picture is south. There's only two clumps of trees in the middle of two of the paddocks, and the paddock on the east side will not be used this year, at least not early. It's full of blackberries and we'll be picking them! There's also two sheds, both in the same paddock. I'm not 100% certain yet, but it appears that water lines have been run to much of the property. The only part that would be difficult to get water to would be the triangular paddock up north that's not pictured. 

I'm currently thinking I'll use the already fenced/watered paddocks for the rotations and the open pasture for hay. 

Your thoughts are welcome on how to implement a rotation, if you'd rather wait until I draw in the fence lines that's fine too!


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## trbizwiz

Just a though, but rather than making the hay investment, why not leave it standing and fence it as you get the funds. When you run out of grass use temp fencing to graze the hay. Then you dont have the expense of cutting, raking, bailing, and moving hay. I have grazed 3 foot tall standing forage that has not been grazed or cut for 3 years, and my herd has not lost any condition over the winter. we have seen some snow and ice too. They just sort of dig through it to get want they need or want. 
Put up hay if you want, but your wasting money IMHO. Infact I'll just about bet the investment in haying that ground woud get the basics of an HT fence up. Nothing super fancy, but cheap corner posts (pretty much anything you can recycle) and power flex line posts 50 ft on center with 3 strands of Ht wire, and a big charger. you can always go back in later and add posts to help the wire follow the contour of the land better (as long as the wire doesnt touch the ground its good, just not pretty). you can always add more strands later, unless you have wild cows 3 will keep 'em in.
Just my 2 cents.


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## trbizwiz

Side note I have been looking for a squeeze chute for quite some time. I found an almost new automatic Preifert head gate for $150, I might be able to use cattle gates to make a kind of squeeze alley. The gates will run $40 to $65. Does this seem to make sence, or will I hate not having an actual squeeze chute. I have never done it either way, just the old wrestle them down adn pen them will yo work them, all with no help. So any way I go seems to be an improvement. I am just trying to work smarter.


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## Gabriel

trbizwiz said:


> Just a though, but rather than making the hay investment, why not leave it standing and fence it as you get the funds. When you run out of grass use temp fencing to graze the hay.


I have thought about it, and I'm hesitant because of my inexperience. I'll be attempting to stockpile as much as possible, but was thinking I'd make hay as insurance. Also, I can't afford to stock this place any where near its potential. I'll be looking into boarding for shares of gain for the first year at least. 

Got a good printout of the property and walked it for more detail. The rotation itself looks to be pretty simple. My big question is the minimum width of each daily allotment. The paddocks are 1: 84x172, 2: 145x172, 3: 145x165. All of those numbers are yards, not feet. So without boarding to bring in extra animal units, I calculated that most of the strips would be only 20' wide. Seems quite narrow. The closer to square it is the more efficient it's supposed to be. Even though it doesn't have to be ideal to work, there's the issue of the animals being relaxed in the narrow width next to the hot wire. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

That head gate and a squeeze made from a gate should suffice. I have a factory made complete setup and in ~15 years I have used it 3 times that I can recall. I would take the cheap way out.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel.

You stated "My big question is the minimum width of each daily allotment. The paddocks are 1: 84x172, 2: 145x172, 3: 145x165. All of those numbers are yards, not feet. So without boarding to bring in extra animal units, I calculated that most of the strips would be only 20' wide."

The needs of the animals will never be a constant and the paddocks will need to vary in size. Time of year, weather conditions, condition and size of the herd, types of forages, will impact how much forage that should be allocated. It is for this reason I abandoned the fixed paddock size for the 2 parallel strands of permanent wire that are then divided with the polywire and pigtail posts. Doing this allows the daily allocation of forage to be managed based on circumstances. I believe you need to rethink using fixed size paddocks.

PS...the cattle will adjust to being near the electric fence and will not be intimidated by close proximity. My cattle eat the forage underneath the fence with no problem. The cattle will also learn to recognize if the fence is on or off.


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## Gabriel

Yes, you are correct of course. The figure I gave was what I worked out to be a probable yearly average. I know that it will fluctuate and I'm not putting anything permanent in. I read somewhere that cows are uncomfortable in a narrow lane... but now can't remember what the stated width was. That is the source of my concern.


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## trbizwiz

If your going to put up hay, make sure you get someone to do it correctly. Don't just have it done when it's convenient for someone to do. Hay can be cut and bailed when ever but the quality of hay is very dependent on when and how. It may cost more to have someone do your hay when your grass is right, but this is what your cows are eating this winter and timing will cause a significant difference in the quality. After it's done take a core sample and have your county extension test it for TDN and protein. His will indicate how good of a job you did and what you will need to supplement.


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## trbizwiz

Gabriel said:


> Yes, you are correct of course. The figure I gave was what I worked out to be a probable yearly average. I know that it will fluctuate and I'm not putting anything permanent in. I read somewhere that cows are uncomfortable in a narrow lane... but now can't remember what the stated width was. That is the source of my concern.


Some of my most evenly grazed areas are under or near electric ht wire. It doesn't seem to phase mine one bit. I always water near the fence too. I can run the hose under the fence so they don't trample it. They drink plenty too. 
Considering the overly rectangular shape of your layout you should consider following agmans lead and divide it into strips with one or two ht wires per interior fence. Then cross fence to box in your paddocks with the poly and reels. I use the power flex reels and I have a few of the older Obrein reels I like the newer Powerflex reels better. 
Anyway I like to use 3 reels. I also cross fence with 2 wires. So I hook the poly to the top wire string it across to the other cross fence and wrap it over the top wire and under the bottom wire then back across the paddock and hook the reel to the bottom wire on the other side. I do this with all three reels and the distance apart depends on stock rate forage stand and alotted time on the paddock. By doing all three reels I make the current paddock and the next one. When I move the herd I take down the back reel and move it to the front. Having the two wire paddock will keep the smaller calves in the paddock, if you have lImited grass you would be surprised how much they will eat if allowed to roam. For full grown cattle 1 wire is sufficient. If you have ample grass let the little calves roam free they'll come back to their mommas. 
When it comes to infrastructure follow the less is more approach early on and you'll figure out what you need. 
Also try not to take a spring cutting of hay off of your unused land. When summer drouts roll around set up temporary fencing in the standing hay and graze your cattle in it. Resting your good forage during the drout. The good forage will recover quicker in the fall and you'll be impressed with the body score of your cattle on the standing hay.


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## bill w

I have enjoyed reading your posts on rotational grazing. I came across this video on youtube and thought I would share: 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xByeimqfZA[/ame]
It is a good design for a simple working pen


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## southerngurl

What about irregular shaped land? Ours is shaped funny and has a big holler through it. Ive tried to figure out how to do rotational grazing. I don' think you'd be able to change hte size of each lot, I think you'd have to keep the same ones. I could, however, change the amoutn of time the animals were int he lots. Would this still work?

And how do you supply water?


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## trbizwiz

I dont know what your plot looks like or what the geography looks like so I would hate to guess. Post a pic and agman is usually generous enough to plott it out for you if you're patient. I know he has mentioned time and again the value of having narrow "transport" lanes through out your pasture and having fixed watering points. I think his rule of thumb is a cow can travel 800 feet or so to water with out much consequence. He lives in the south east so that applies in a reasonably hot climate, I assume it would hold up in a milder climate as well. 
Good luck. And if you're patient, he will probably give you some great suggestions. But he will need at least a drawn plott with suggestions of geography adn existing water and fence. A google earth map or similar may prove to be more helpful.
Sorry Agman if I have over promised for you. but I havent seen you tell anyone no in the 2 years or so this thread has been running. you oughtta get a comission though.


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## Gabriel

Use google maps to find your location, then use the "satellite" feature and screenshot it.


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## godsgapeach

Here are some of our latest additions...


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## godsgapeach

And here is the composite post I mentioned that got run over by the bushhog.



















You can see that it was sheared a little on one side and it's definitely crooked, but still usable, and not shattered to pieces. It also didn't tear up the bushhog like a steel T-post is likely to do.


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## trbizwiz

I love my power flex posts. I just wish they had a sturdy permenant corner post configuration that did not need end strainers.


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## Gabriel

Godsgapeach, those are cute! Baby farm animals are a big perk to the lifestyle, imo.


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## godsgapeach

Thanks, Gabriel. I've got one more that arrived after the photo shoot. The only non-black/brown in the bunch. It's dark grey with a few small black spots (from a white mama).

And I totally agree. They're always good for bringing a smile.


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## LuckyLegs

Godsgapeach

Good lookign calves, what breed is that red cow in the 4th picture, my wife really likes her color - bet she stays a little cooler in the summer than the black-hided cattle too!


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## godsgapeach

LuckyLegs, they are Santa Gertrudis--a Brahman/Shorthorn cross--and they're a pretty big breed. Bigger by far than any of Agman's. We're in the process of downsizing... But if you're looking for a BIG, fairly sleek herd, you'd be in business.


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## trbizwiz

LuckyLegs said:


> Godsgapeach
> 
> Good lookign calves, what breed is that red cow in the 4th picture, my wife really likes her color - bet she stays a little cooler in the summer than the black-hided cattle too!



That color is very similar to a red poll, but red polls are a smaller frame cow. You can see some in the link in my sig


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## Skip

Godsgapeach

I keep following the thread, wanting to use the system even though I am in a zone 4. I realize I may have to feed hay during the true winter months, but being able to extend the grazing months by three to four months would be a bonus.
I love the colour of the red soil. What is this soild called? Do you know what gives it this colour?
How is your father feeling about the changes?

Someone had mentioned to look at the grasses that grow on the sides of the roads to know what will grow easily in the pastures. I will have to learn how to use a digital camera and post pictures to have the grasses identified.

Even though this thread is geared to cattle, I am hoping to graze a small herd of dexter cows (small frame size) and pigs. My goal is to feed the family and build a direct market.


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## ArmyDoc

Skip said:


> Godsgapeach
> 
> I keep following the thread, wanting to use the system even though I am in a zone 4. I realize I may have to feed hay during the true winter months, but being able to extend the grazing months by three to four months would be a bonus.
> I love the colour of the red soil. What is this soild called? Do you know what gives it this colour?


That's good ol' georgia red clay... red color is caused by iron in the soil I believe.


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## LuckyLegs

trbizwiz

I would love to get a few red polls once I get my fencing redone, though I have never seen or heard for sale within a reasaonable drive of S. Louisiana. 

We have lots of red clay on my prop too and in my area bahia seems to be the most common pasture forage - would love to get some fescue established if it is possible down here.


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## godsgapeach

Hi, Skip. 

ArmyDoc is right. The dirt (clay) is red because of iron oxide. It stains everything it touches.  And right now, we're feeding some hay, but not nearly as much as in previous years. Hopefully next year will be even better. Daddy has been very pleased with everything we've done. I'm familiar with Dexters--some friends have some.

LuckyLegs, I just looked in my Southern Forages book and it says LA is out of the zone for good production. Don't know what a good substitution would be.

As promised, here is the grey calf and Ma:










and posing:


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Godsgapeach

Since the start of this thread, can you give a rough idea of how many cows have come and gone from the heard?

How is that bull doing? Are the calves in the above photos from him?


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## ArmyDoc

LuckyLegs said:


> trbizwiz
> 
> I would love to get a few red polls once I get my fencing redone, though I have never seen or heard for sale within a reasaonable drive of S. Louisiana.
> 
> We have lots of red clay on my prop too and in my area bahia seems to be the most common pasture forage - would love to get some fescue established if it is possible down here.


I think you may be a bit to far south for fescue. It seems like bahia and crimson clover is a reasonable substitue in rotational grazing going south. I'm right on the line between fescue and bahia, but the NRCS guy tells me bahia will do better in my sandy soil.


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## ArmyDoc

godsgapeach said:


> As promised, here is the grey calf and Ma:


What a cutie!


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## southerngurl

We only have about 12.5 acres here. I just realized I cut it a little short at the top. It's actually right outside this picture at the top. The rest of it is right. 
But we have 3 cows and 3 horses . The horses stay at a neighbors but I would really like to keep one at the house. One of the cows is a big Jersey and the other two are angus crosses. You can see some of our land is wooded. We have two ponds. The purple lines outline the holler. There is the barn and it has a 6 ft fence in a triangular area that was built for my deer many years ago and now houses the goats. I don't really know how to make it more efficient. We have good pasture, a lot of yellow clover.


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## Gymno

Hello Agman and everyone! I'm new to the forum and ranching. In times past i had a gentlemens farm and raised some Angus's just for our own meat. Now, we have just moved to our new place in eastern Washington, zone 5, about 20" of moisture. We have approx 40 acres of pasture (30 acres plus a 10 acre upper pasture) and the rest(100 acres) is a combination of thinned and managed forest land. Our pasture slopes gently to the south and has not been touched for over 10 years. It is really a hodgepodge of grasses and different weeds...mostly weeds. I had been planning to rennovate about 10 acres of the pasture at a time. But then i found this thread, and boy am i jazzed about Intensive management so i might do more. In addition we have 5 acres of subirrigated pasture that grows all the time. I know enough to be dangerous, but i just clicked with you Agman, and how you think. I really think similiar. If you don't mind, i would like to put out some questions and letting you know what i am planning. I really want to plan this right and ultimately use the pasture to its full potential. 

So here goes:

I am planning to rennovate the pasture and i am getting different opinions how to do it. First off, we have a very nice carbon layer, with a PH of 6.5. The extension agent thinks i should plant oats to help kill the existing weeds this spring, and then plant the grass this fall. He recommends an intermediate wheat grass which looks like it is OK, but it is pretty spendy. In talking with some of the ol boys here and the feed store, they recommend spraying the weeds after they bud out a bit this spring, and then harrow the ground a bit to break up the soil (it is easy to dig) a bit, then plant the seed, and then a light harrow again to lightly cover the seed. They recommend a grass mixture that works in this area. 20% Metal Broan Grass, 20% Crown Royal Orchard, 20% Fawn Tall Fescue, 20% Perineal Rye grass, 20% Annual Rye grass. 

So question on this. I have always liked a mixture, so i am leaning this way. It seems that the boys are recommending what you do Agman. does this sound right? Should i put in any clover? Or wait? After it comes up, they recommend that it is not grazed the first year, and to let it go to seed in the fall and let it naturally reseed itself to help fill in? Agman, i know that you like to clip the tops before it goes to seed but that is in an actively grazed area in rotation. What do you guys think? 

Fencing: Permimeter fence...am planning a 5 wire HT fence. Is this OK? I haven't seen any design on this thread for those. I am desigining the Paddocks now, but wouldn't mind a critique when i am done. In designing them, i will try to keep the rows parallel with each other, is there any magic formula for paddock width? I will follow to the letter the single wire fence for the paddocks and the strand wire for managing the rotations. 

How and when to buy cattle?: Ultimately i would like to have a similiar operation with cow and calf. I would start slow, and then add to the heard as it grows and we have room. I remember the recommendation of buying a heard of heifers, getting them bred with a bull that i would like, and then start culling as i get more experience. I do have 5 acres of sub irrigated pasture that does not need to be irrigated that i can graze right now. I was thinking that i would get some initial heifers this fall ? The pasture would not be stockpiled which is where i would graze them this winter. As i am starting out without any real constraints on what i do, what would be the best way to build my herd? Right now, my neighbors runs about 100 head of Angus but he is very tradional on how he feeds them. Should i consider buying from him? 

I've asked so many questions, but i feel that i am gaining ground little by little. I'm excited about raising these cattle! 

Have lots of other questions, but they can wait. Thanks to you all!

my best,

Jim


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## agmantoo

southerngurl,

I am unclear with the property description. What is unclear is whether the 12+ acres is contiguous? I see what I refer to as a pan handle with the red border. Additionally I see your deer barn area. What I find hard to decipher is the black line that is around a much larger area. I understand the "hollar". Is the pan handle area a fenced area within the black lines and does the outlined in black area make up the 12+ acres? Thanks 










southerngurl said:


> We only have about 12.5 acres here. I just realized I cut it a little short at the top. It's actually right outside this picture at the top. The rest of it is right.
> But we have 3 cows and 3 horses . The horses stay at a neighbors but I would really like to keep one at the house. One of the cows is a big Jersey and the other two are angus crosses. You can see some of our land is wooded. We have two ponds. The purple lines outline the holler. There is the barn and it has a 6 ft fence in a triangular area that was built for my deer many years ago and now houses the goats. I don't really know how to make it more efficient. We have good pasture, a lot of yellow clover.


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## agmantoo

Gymno

Welcome to the forum!

As you may be aware you are outside my comfort zone with the 20 inches of annual rain and zone 5. 

I will assist you where I can but we need to eat this elephant one mouthful at a time. I suggest we start with discussing the perimeter fence. High tensile fencing is the cheapest fence that I am aware that will contain animals. The key to a good fence is properly placed and braced posts of quality materials. Combine the fence with a high output fence charger and your animals should remain where they belong. Therefore I would start with the perimeter fence. In between fencing you can concentrate of planting and growing the forages. IMO some folks make a mistake of trying to grow what is perceived ideal for their animals without giving regard to how it will survive and produce on their farm. I think it is easier to adapt the cattle to your place than it is to convert the farm to a crop that does not want to produce in your soil. Observing what grows on the shoulder of the nearby roads really is not a bad idea. I am aware that the Willamette Valley is one of the best grass growing areas in the USA and I know you are north east of there with some significant weather differences. What I am leading up to ask is for you to determine if KY 31 fescue will thrive at your location. I am wanting to determine what grass will grow like a weed but have a lot of protein while doing so on your place.

We can continue this project over time if that agrees with you.

PS...do you have access to a tractor and a rotary cutter (brush hog) ?


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## southerngurl

Yes, the black lines are the perimeter fence. The panhandle area is our driveway and yard.


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## agmantoo

southerngurl,

Is the plant called medic the same as your yellow clover? 
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...&sa=X&ei=6IFJTa7WJIvfgQeJ7cgB&ved=0CDgQ9QEwBg

Do you have grasses growing also?

From the aerial view my guess is that only 40 plus % of your place is not heavily shaded or in woods. What I see is a lot of individual trees that are scattered. To increase your pasture acreage and to promote forage growth what are you thoughts of thinning the trees to create what would resemble golf course fairways? How much of a perimeter fence do you have around the perimeter of the total acreage?


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## Gymno

Thanks for the welcome Agman. I'm very pleased to have found this thread and the people behind it! 

I will check on how the KY 31 Fescue does here. Am actually going to an Ag fair later today. My understanding is that the mix these guys were reccomending does well. Typically we get very nice grass and it begins to dry out in the mid July - August timeframe. a bit like you. On our property, our trees are big and green. We have lots of Pine and Fir, with the occasional Cedar. One of the reasons i like it here is because of the Green and that it doesn't rain all the time! I'll get back to you on the grass. 

As i have put in quite a bit of fence before, i was using a 4' field fence around our house area, but that would be way to expensive to put around the entire property. So i am considering the 5 strand (more or less) HT fence. I would put in solid corners with double posts (6" treated posts) like the manufact reccomend and the line posts that you have been talking about. Would love to find some steel I beams! If i do this it seems it would make a good perimeter fence? QUestion about Electric.....Is a good Solar charger good enough for this? Or do i need to get power to a line charger? 

I do have a Kubota 35 HP tractor with a heavy duty brush hog, landscape rake, box , and a back blade (used for snow removal) ? Just need to learn how to and when to properly use it for grass. 


Thanks again.

Jim


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## trbizwiz

Solar will likely be too small unless you make one up. For your ackerage youll need a bunch of joules. Solar chargers are usually rated in sizes like 30 ackers., but that guy is dreaming. Those are usually a fraction of a joule. Youll want 6 to 10 joules to keep them in, especially powering poly wire partitions. A large charger is more forgiving to shorts from grass and small fence failures as well. Now some of the mid size chargers like stayfix 6 joule have the option of battery clips or 110 plug, adn come with both in the box. I have the stayfix 3 and it does have both. You could find the amps and watts of what ever charger you are buying and geta proper deep cell battery for that charger for a 20 to 30 run to full discharge, then get a solar panel rated at the proper wattage to fully charge your battery in one normal day of sunlight for your area. Then you would have a home built solar charger that you know will do the job. My 3 stayfix 3 needs a minimum 30 watt solar panel and I think 600 amp hour (not cranking amp) deep cell battery for 20 days, just FYI. Now I am stating those numbers from 18 months old memory, so it should be close but not exact. 18 months ago I called stayfix and talked to their engineering dept, they helped me with the numbers. I priced at pannel on ebay at about $100 shipped, then you need a charge controller about $30, and a battery, anywhere from $80 and up depending on how big its "gass tank" is.


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## southerngurl

agmantoo said:


> southerngurl,
> 
> Is the plant called medic the same as your yellow clover?
> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...&sa=X&ei=6IFJTa7WJIvfgQeJ7cgB&ved=0CDgQ9QEwBg
> 
> Do you have grasses growing also?
> 
> From the aerial view my guess is that only 40 plus % of your place is not heavily shaded or in woods. What I see is a lot of individual trees that are scattered. To increase your pasture acreage and to promote forage growth what are you thoughts of thinning the trees to create what would resemble golf course fairways? How much of a perimeter fence do you have around the perimeter of the total acreage?


It does look like the Medic yes. 

Yes there are grasses, fescue and bermuda plus who a little of this and that. 

We have a little more pasture than it looks like in the aerial it seems. You can tell the pic was taken late in the day. There are a few less trees in the fields as we have had a few die and lost some in the ice storm. That said, I'm not sure on thinning a few out. 

Not sure I understand your last question.


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## agmantoo

How much of a perimeter fence do you have around the perimeter of the total acreage?

I am asking is the fence in place around the entire perimeter of your property?


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## Gymno

trbizwiz said:


> Solar will likely be too small unless you make one up. For your ackerage youll need a bunch of joules. Solar chargers are usually rated in sizes like 30 ackers., but that guy is dreaming. Those are usually a fraction of a joule. Youll want 6 to 10 joules to keep them in, especially powering poly wire partitions. A large charger is more forgiving to shorts from grass and small fence failures as well. Now some of the mid size chargers like stayfix 6 joule have the option of battery clips or 110 plug, adn come with both in the box. I have the stayfix 3 and it does have both. You could find the amps and watts of what ever charger you are buying and geta proper deep cell battery for that charger for a 20 to 30 run to full discharge, then get a solar panel rated at the proper wattage to fully charge your battery in one normal day of sunlight for your area. Then you would have a home built solar charger that you know will do the job. My 3 stayfix 3 needs a minimum 30 watt solar panel and I think 600 amp hour (not cranking amp) deep cell battery for 20 days, just FYI. Now I am stating those numbers from 18 months old memory, so it should be close but not exact. 18 months ago I called stayfix and talked to their engineering dept, they helped me with the numbers. I priced at pannel on ebay at about $100 shipped, then you need a charge controller about $30, and a battery, anywhere from $80 and up depending on how big its "gass tank" is.


Thanks brbizwiz for the feedback. Went to a regional AG show today and talked to the gallagher rep on this and he said that with the deep cell battery and solar panel that it would work just fine. Once i get some final distances, i will get more specific. Seems like a lot of people on this thread like the Stayfix so i will look into that as well. The good news is i have an added panel on our RV that i don't use so i think i will rob that and put together a system for it....

Jim


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## southerngurl

agmantoo said:


> How much of a perimeter fence do you have around the perimeter of the total acreage?
> 
> I am asking is the fence in place around the entire perimeter of your property?


Yes, other than the driveway.


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## godsgapeach

Hollerhavenfarm said:


> Godsgapeach
> 
> Since the start of this thread, can you give a rough idea of how many cows have come and gone from the heard?
> 
> How is that bull doing? Are the calves in the above photos from him?


Hollerhaven, sorry. I don't get the email notifications when anyone posts (even though I'm subscribed to the thread...) so I'm just getting to your question. Since the start we've culled 5-7 of the original herd. No new additions yet. I'm working about 40 cow/calf pairs--with calves of various ages.

ALL of these most recent calves belong to THE bull and he's doing great. Thanks for asking. Next time I remember to take the camera to the pasture with me, I'll take a shot of him too, so you can see how he's developed.


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Godsgapeach

Thanks for the reply - The calves look real nice. I am anxious to see how big they get and to see if you get any good replacement heifers. 

Thanks for sharing the pics of the power flex post that had a run in with the bush hog. Amazing the small amount of damage.


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## agmantoo

I believe that the bulk of the Winter is about to be behind me. I see a lot of new green tint as I look over the paddocks. Here is what the herd is grazing on today. I am posting this so that the condition of the animals can be seen as they come out of Winter. No creep feeding or grain has been fed. The cows and the offspring are living off grass and mineral supplement, no other feed. I had 3 new calves when I went to the farm this afternoon and the animals seem to me to be in decent enough body condition to continue to breed back quickly. This pic has animals on various ages distributed over the paddock.


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## Gymno

Hello all... well my plan for getting our cattle is evolving, slow but sure. As Agman sez, "eat the elephant one bite at a time".

I am one who like to do things right, but sometimes "right" is a bit too expensive, or maybe i need to phase our implementation. 

So this is my thinking now, and i would value your input and critique. To recap: I have about 40 acres of pasture, 5 acres is subirrigated and will grow grass up to your armpits and is good grass. The other is dryer, and gives only one cutting of hay a year (if you hay). It hasn't been farmed for over 20 years, but the soil is good...and there is a lot of weeds. I want to maximize the grass, and first off become a good 'Grass farmer" so i've decided that i need to rennovate the 35 acres. Can't afford to do it all at once, and don't need to. So here is my plan.

1. This spring, i will spray the weeds to kill them and let what grass is there to grow. I won't put any livestock on it, but let what grass is there to grow. I will cut it so that nothing comes up to go to seed. THis fall i will harrow the ground, plant seed, and harrow it again. Most people here say this is the very best time to plant grass. I was going to do it this spring, but because of the weed killing, i was discouraged from doing that. I will only have the 10 acres sprayed, the rest needs to wait because of funds. I would not put any cattle on this for a year. I think i could let it grow next year, and then use that a potential stockpile for winter? I would then fence the paddocks as Agman suggests. Am still in the planning stage on where they go. 

2. I will fence in the perimeter of my sub irrigated field. Unlike the dryer fields, i cannot make long straight paddocks as Agman suggests, so it will be more of a challenge to divide this up. essentially it has a pond (that will dry out in August) in the middle of it (like a doughnut). I will wire off the pond as well. I have a surface well completed and get water, so i will install the initial part of the system so that i can water in this area. My goal would be to have about 5 acres where i could start the cattle. 

3. As i will only have about 5 acres ready this spring (if i can get everything done) i was thinking of getting a couple of pregant heiffers from my neighbor who runs about 100 head of registered medium size Angus. He is becoming very helpful and intruiqed about the rotational grazing locally. So i think i could start there, maybe with 2 heifers in april? In a couple of years the herd could grow either naturallly or by addition, based on how much pasture i can get completed. I could also wait a year and get more completed, but seems like a waste as i have such good grass in this area. 

THoughts from the pros here please? Looking at all options and value your advice.

Thanks....

Jim

3.


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## Gabriel

Gymno said:


> 1. This spring, i will spray the weeds to kill them and let what grass is there to grow. I won't put any livestock on it, but let what grass is there to grow. I will cut it so that nothing comes up to go to seed.


Unless you have some sort of pernicious weed that isn't killed by clipping, I'd skip the spraying. Mow it when it flowers, before it goes to seed. Regular cuttings will not only kill the weeds and improve the grasses, but will build up the soil due to the clippings decaying right there. 



Gymno said:


> 3. As i will only have about 5 acres ready this spring (if i can get everything done) i was thinking of getting a couple of pregnant heifers from my neighbor who runs about 100 head of registered medium size Angus. He is becoming very helpful and intrigued about the rotational grazing locally. So i think i could start there, maybe with 2 heifers in april? In a couple of years the herd could grow either naturally or by addition, based on how much pasture i can get completed. I could also wait a year and get more completed, but seems like a waste as i have such good grass in this area.


I find that you can run electric fence so cheaply that it's worth it to start now and move the fence later. You _will_ make some mistakes, but they'll be small and relatively easy to fix. Why spend money to mow a pasture when you can make money by letting the animals do it?  I'm no expert, but every MIG source that I've read says the pasture will improve with nothing more than a management change. No need to spend money up front on seed etc especially when you can't utilize all the additional growth.


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## trbizwiz

X2 what he said ^


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## SCRancher

I agree with the last 2 posts however I would like to add that even if he does graze he will still need to clip the pasture to reduce weeds. I would not spend the $$ on pasture renovation - instead simply graze and clip.

One thing to remember - sometimes what we consider weeds are actually just food for a cow - especially when the weeds are immature.

I have an area that needs renovation - before coming here I probably would have went with a tractor to do what I want done. Now I'm on the other side of the fence - it will take longer but cost me nothing - actually it will gain me $$ instead because I plan on using the area during times of forage lows on my improved pasture. I figure it saved me around 400-500 bucks this winter in feed having the cows eat what are to me weeds.

The area I have is a mixture of 10 year old clear cut, old beaver ponds turned meadows, and very mature hard wood forest. Most of the wooded area both mature and immature is overrun with Chinese private, black berries, and honeysuckle. This winter my cows have gained weight eating mostly Private and Honeysuckle with a bit of reeds and grass mixed in. This summer I imagine it will be mostly grass that they eat. I can already tell just from the month and 1/2 that they have been in this area that they are already opening up the understory which will allow more light to penetrate which I'm hoping will translate into more grass and edible forbes growing.

So personally - I would just throw up a perimeter fence around the entire place (or as much as you can) and sub-divide with poly-wire and step in posts and not worry about permanent sub-divisions yet - just make sure you clip when you see weeds starting to flower - clip as high as your brushhog will go and see where nature takes you.


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## agmantoo

Gymno

The advice given is right on! Doing as suggested should put you at least 1 year ahead. What establishes itself should be grasses that are adapted to your location and should persist while providing maximum grazing. Let the grasses get started and add the legumes next season. The next step is to locate animals that are accustomed to eating what grows on your place. Stay with what will be sustainable without having to supplement with outside purchased protein if possible. Along with all other items that are increasing in price it is my opinion that feed prices will become more of an impact in production costs near term. Those that are feeding grain are already feeling the pinch. Good luck.


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## trbizwiz

The problem with pasture renovation that every one seems to want to do is this. They go buy a piece of ground that is over grown and hasnt been in production for a while. They want to mow it down and plant a bunch of great things and make it a picturesque meadow. Well it was likely over used and under cared for, for years. Then the PO gave up on it and let is grow up with weeds for a few years. Then it was sold. The PH is likely off, there is probalby a good thatch layer but the healthy soil layer is so thin that when you cut everything off and plow or seed it you lose the good soil to wind and rain. You also stripped off all the protection for all of the life in that thin layer of soil. So when you plant all the expensive seed you will likely get a very poor stand. 
You would be better off to take a soil sample. after you get the results back in a few weeks, you will know exactly what you are working with. In my part of the country the best thing to do would be to put down the 3 L's. Lime, litter, and legumes. Do this in mid fall or late winter, and fence the perimiter. then stock it in the spring. If you have a good stand of quality weeds (ask you extension agent to identify what you have growing currently) you may be able to stock it right away along with the 3 L's. The cows will get in there and eat everything that is forage, and leave the brush and briars. you go in and clip them with the brush hog, and then plant or drill your desired seed in the following fall. You should have a beautiful stand in the spring of year 2, and it will improve and thicken each year with good managment. Sadly the good management part is harder than it sounds, and it will probably take 3 to 5 years to learn that part.


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## Gymno

Well thank you all for your response and help. It seems the engineer in me has over thought and analyzed how to "optimize " the grass quantity. I really do think that the prices of all food commodities will only increase, and even more ...probably more than we can even think. 


I appreciate your help and hope you can continue in this regard! I am taking a long term approach to this and thought i needed to all this work to just get started. Some said to actually plow until i realized (from you all) that it is the top layer that we are interested in developing and to till that under was outright dumb in my case. So let me take another stab at a plan! 

1. We did a soil analysis last year as trebizwiz suggested. It is actually very good soil. Drains well, decent first layer, PH is 6.3. First off do you think i need to lime it with that high of PH? Certainly can, but it seems like the PH is OK. So what i will do is just let things grow like it has and keep it mowed with the brush hog. That is quite a bit of mowing but i enjoy tractor work! 

2. I will put in a perimeter fence and hold off on the Paddock fences. Ultimately i will get those in along with my water system. I will manage the initial cows using polywire. I will invest in a good electric system (from the savings in the herbicide)

3. I still think i will get a couple of Heiffers. I had a great coversation with my neighbor who recommended another one that has the "best heiffers in the area" . I belieeve he is going to sell them in April. I will go talk to him, and ask him what we might have available. Still think i will start with 2 or 3 and build from there. I will get some pictures if i can of them and if i can figure how to post them will do that as i have NO IDEA, even after researching on the internet, what we are looking for other than the small/medium size that AGman talks about. I believe that is what is here. There are lots of Angus around here. 

4. I have a couple of technical questions that maybe you can help me with..

-----the first is what happens to quality of the grass that is "stockpiled". I realize that stockpiled grass seems to be hay that isn't cut. Does it lose its nurishment value being stockpiled vs. being made into hay? I can certainly stockpile a signficant part of my field this year, keeping it mowed enough so that seed heads don't come out? Someone asked me if the stockpiled grass was still good for cows....and i didn't know for sure. 


----there are times we have snow that is 8 -12" thick. Sometimes it is only for a little while. Agman, i know you recommend to have an emergency supply of hay, but how do you know when you need to feed them because they can't through the snow to the forage? Newbe questions for sure, but i want to learn! 


Thanks again to all of you for helping steer me in the right direction. I want to have a very low cost of production, and it seems when i read about cattle, i am constantly being sold to do this and that....and that means $$$. 

my best....Jim


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## agmantoo

Gymno, your question

*I have a couple of technical questions that maybe you can help me with..

-----the first is what happens to quality of the grass that is "stockpiled". I realize that stockpiled grass seems to be hay that isn't cut. Does it lose its nurishment value being stockpiled vs. being made into hay? I can certainly stockpile a signficant part of my field this year, keeping it mowed enough so that seed heads don't come out? Someone asked me if the stockpiled grass was still good for cows....and i didn't know for sure. *

Here is an article that gives info on fescue stockpiling.
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/agr162.pdf

*----there are times we have snow that is 8 -12" thick. Sometimes it is only for a little while. Agman, i know you recommend to have an emergency supply of hay, but how do you know when you need to feed them because they can't through the snow to the forage?*


Snow that deep without a heavy ice crust is no problem. The cattle will move the snow aside and eat right on.









As for being a low cost producer, I have learned over time that most of what I have been told or read regarding cattle production was perception, not facts. I get a lot of flack from conventional producers at another cattle site I visit. It seems ingrained in many folks that only the way the family has raised cattle in the past is the only thing that will work. Then these same people grumble at not making a profit.


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## bruce2288

Gymo. What is the normal stocking rate in your area for the upland pastures? That would give an idea of the initial productivity due to soils and climate.


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## Gymno

bruce2288 said:


> Gymo. What is the normal stocking rate in your area for the upland pastures? That would give an idea of the initial productivity due to soils and climate.


Bruce, i don't know. I know that the stocking rate most use is based on what the summer follage brings and they all hay in the winter. It seems to me, and Agman can correct me, but if you use rotational grazing, that the maximum stocking rate will be based on how much your winter forage will last. I know that we have reasonably mild winters and late august everything is brown that isn't subirrigated. Sept/Oct brings more moisture. I will need to "discover" what are pasture will hold. Also will be discussing this with the guy that i hope i get my future heifers from. I'm thinking that i could probably ultimately put a cow /calf pair on 2 acres? I think Agman is able to to that on 1.4 acres or so. 

Jim


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## bruce2288

I think you are overly opptunistic as to stocking rate. I am making some assumptions as to your climate.
Here in Nebraska where I am annual rainfall of about 23 inches, growing season sporatically starts sometime in March and is over sometime in November. Here standard set stocking rate May to October ,5 months is 4 acres/cow-calf pair. With rotational grazing you can improve on this greatly, and it will depend some on how short your grazing interval is and how long your rest periods are.
The two main pitfalls in a climate like mine, even with rotational grazing is starting too early in the spring and getting ahead of the grass and grazing to heavily the 4-6 weeks before dormancy occurs, which can adversely affect energy reserves in the root system and weaken your spring regrowth ability.
I am impressed with Agman system and management, also a little envious, but I realize my topography, rainfall and growing season will not allow that level of productivity on my pastures.
If you are planning to run a cow on 2 acres year around, I fear you will be dissapointed and your pasture will suffer. I would ask the guy you are getting heifers from what his stocking rate is, as a baseline and try to improve on that. Having extra grass is a good thing, running short on grazing can be expensive or a dissaster. Good luck


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## Gymno

Thanks Bruce for the feedback. My one goal, and i know it will take years of specific experience is to maximize use of our pastures. I will alwyas have some siginificant grass reserves. My neighbor has an entire year ( he doesn't know what to do with it all!) . So if i start small, i can gradually build a herd and see what really works. If it the stocking rate is 4 per acre...so be it! Agman is really the person that got me going on this (he doesn't know that....thanks Agman!) and i am excited about the possibility. I certainly will not purposely overgraze (either in the fall or spring) and shoot myself in the foot. In western washington, the stocking rate was about 1 mature cow per acre but they have much more rain than we do. We have the same 20" of rain you do, but not the extreme temps you guys have. 

So now a question to you as you are in Nebraska...my Grandparents homesteaded in Lewellen Nebraska. Do you know where that is? They had 1000's of acres all over. TOok my dad back there before he passed away and he remembered it all as it was yesterday. So my heritage is from Nebraska...and i root for Big Red! Actually names our new ranch after it. 

Thanks Bruce...

Jim


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## bruce2288

Gyno It is indeed a small world, not only do I know Lewellend, I taught school there for two year in 1978=1980. Coached the boys sports. What is you grandfathers name?


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## Gymno

bruce....Rudolph Noetzelmann. Also lived a lot in Kearney.


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## bruce2288

A Rick Noetzelmann was at the school for maybe 1 semester. He played football for me until he blew a knee. I did not know Rudolph.


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## trbizwiz

I got 10 tons of litter spread yesterday. $240, so i am pretty happy with that. It may just be my imagination, but my clover is already looking better. some of it seems to have grown an inch over night. Now its been in the 50s and 60s since saturday, and we had a ton of snow last week, so maybe its just the warmth and moisture, but I am optimistic for a very early stand this year. 
I still need 8 tons of lime spread, but the ground is still a little soft. the guy says he usually weighs 50K,a dn the litter guys weigh around 30K. My litter guy left a few tracks and did almost get hung up in the neighbors field when he was headed to mine, but he made it. 
I am now trying to get ahold of my other neighbor. He lives in another town, but owns the land adjacent to me. I want to lease it and get some more cows this year. I am also hoping mine have heifers next month. So if all goes well, I will be building fence next month. 
I think this year, I will use the extra land as overflow grazing. I'll graze mine just the way I wnat it, adn then if I need more recovery time, I'll move the heard over to the lease, and graze over there until I am satisfied with the recovery, thenm move them back to my ground. That will give me a year to improve that land with grazing, and maybe this fall I can get more pastured chickens. I am planning on 50 this spring and a few turkeys. If it goes the way I expect I'll get 200 chicks in the fall. I probably wont get any more turkeys until next spring since it takes 7 months to raise them and they sell best at Thanksgiving. 
The only reason for th poultry is, my accountant said I have to show some income next year, and I wont have any beef to process until the following year. Cows arent a one year fast profit business. Not if you plan on direct marketing them. Plus I enjoy the medly of animals out there being animals. Its kind of peaceful. Takes the edge off the day job. Besides if I do turn a proffit, I can buy more land and more animals. Who knows, if I am lucky. I can retire and work 80 hours a week.


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## SCRancher

I had 84-100 tons of poultry litter spread over my 40 acre pasture last Thursday - price for the litter was around $2,500 and spreading was $630 expensive but a lot less then inorganic. It has not rained since it was spread and we had at least a week of no rain prior to it being spread. Since my grass is still so short (not catching any morning dew at all) it really hasn't had much effect other than make my eyes burn when I'm out there and the grass does seem a darker shade of green.

I'm looking forward to getting some rain in tonight/tomorrow to kick the grass into gear and get some growth.


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## trbizwiz

It is raining right now here. i should have some pretty nice growth next week. Plus the smell should be gone. I was hoping the rain would hold off for 2 more days. It was almost dry enough to get a lime truck out there. My PH is 6.3 I think. i seem to have lost the soil sample sheet. they mailed it instead of emailing it as I requested. I can never keep paperwork straight very long. I know I was bad low on P and K, and pretty good on nitrogen. I am guessing that's why my clover responded so quickly. It was starved for P and K.
I have a baby red coming next month. I am very excited. By the looks of Momma, it should be a small calf. Unfortunately for the other heifer, her claf looks much bigger, I am hoping for twins, because one calf that big is gonna be tough to deliver for a heifer. I am thinking about taking her to the vet for an ultrasound to see if we need to do anything special. I am not sure though. These are my first calves, I dont want them to think I am stupid for bringing them in.


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## Gabriel

trbizwiz, I'd rather look stupid than lose an animal. I've found that asking others their opinion makes them feel good, besides, if you go to a vet... that's their job! I do hate paying for an opinion though, perhaps there's an experienced rancher who can advise?


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## trbizwiz

The one in question is a little shorter than the one who looks fine. BUt she is 2 times as wide as the taller one. Now I have seen plenty of cows that look as wide as Baby cakes, but she is just a heifer, so I am not real sure how a big calf will work out. I guess I will call and make an appointment for next Saturday. She isnt due until April, but the first one is due in March, though she looks to have a small calf, or a very full rumen all the time. They both are round enough you cant see their teets unless you just about crawl under them. They seem nicely formed as best I can tell. I mean there are at least 4 handles to grab on to (I dont think they would let me).


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

What is the body condition score of each animal? What did the heifer weigh when she was bred. What breed is the bull they were bred to? How much grain have they had in the last 3 months?
Can you post pics straight on from the rear of each animal?


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## trbizwiz

Thanks for responding Agman. I couldnt really tell you the body condition, they are pretty hairy. But I would say they are fair. I dont really see any bony protrusions, but the rumps arent as round as I would like. 
The bull was a registered red poll, and he had only sired 1 calf prior to breeding mine. I dont remember that calfs weight, but it seemed like it was close to the breed standard.
They have had no grain sisnce they were weened. just grass, clover, and turnips as a treat. They love turnips.
I have a mineral lick out for them and they all chew and lick on it. I havent fed any ground or loose minerals, maybe I should. 
I will try to get some rump pic's today at lunch, when I go home to check cows and let the free range chickens out.
With their diet a large calf doesnt seem likely, so either she has twins, or the first cow isnt bred. There is a significant difference between the two. 
I am reasonably sure the thinner one is bred. She never rides any of the others, I never see any shiny stuff on her rump, and she was with a bull for 2.5 months during breeding season.


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## trbizwiz

Here are some pics
This one is Ruby, she looks to have a small calf, or maybe not be bred








This is Ruby again








This is baby cakes, she is an inch or so shorter that Ruby, and she is a stockier build, but quite a bit wider at the belly, and she is a month behind Ruby according to the guy that bred them for me. They were on his place for 2.5 months to breed to his bulls. Ruby's bull is a cousin to baby cakes, and Baby cakes bull was his another bull. Both bulls were registered red poll









As a side note, they are not in my field. I am working on a lease of some adjacent property and they are on it right now. I have 0 briars on mine, and this property has about 26 acres of them. It is also currently zoned residential, but out side city limits. Part of my selling factor with the owner is that his taxes will drop substancially with the repourpose. He had it zoned off in lots to sell, but hasnt sold any other than the one I bought for 8 years. the taxes oneach 5 acre lot are $200 per year, the taxes on all 26 acres will be less than that if repurposed. Plus I will pay a lease. No brainer right??!!


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## trbizwiz

Oh and in a perfect world, Baby cakes will give me 15 heifers over the next 15 years. What a beautiful cow she is. She is pretty selfish though. She has a tendancy to push everyone else away from the water, or what ever she is going after.


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## Gabriel

About Ruby, it's tough to say whether or not she's even pregnant, perhaps you could get a pic' with less angle? Baby Cakes looks fine to me.


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## trbizwiz

Yea, ruby was a little shy this afternoon. Wasnt wanting me taking pics back there. Right now baby cakes just looks a little wider than ruby in person, so maybe I have jar been catching her with a full rumen.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

baby cakes does appear that she will deliver. We do still need a straight on shot of ruby.


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## agmantoo

Here in zone 7 we are having a nice transition from Winter into early Spring but are still lacking for rain. The last of the stockpiled fescue was fed and the manure has been dragged. Notice how nicely the manure breaks up when there is a little moisture available. Here are a few pics of the change.
Last of the stockpiled fescue








the resulting manure 








after the drag


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## trbizwiz

Here is I better pic of rubys back side.








I also observed her cleaning her udders heres a pic of that











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## agmantoo

I have in the past made mineral feeders from the plastic 55 gallon drums but they have not held up. Recently I saw a pic somewhere of a different design mineral feeder using tires. Not recalling where I saw that pic, I do not know whom to thank for the idea. From my pic below it is hard to judge the scale of the size of the tires. The top tire is bolted to the lower tire. It was difficult to get the bolts through the steel belted tires. If I were to do this again I would spend more time figuring an easier way. The vertical tire is one of those tires that are used to replace the both duals on a road tractor/trailer. The tire underneath is a road tractor standard tire. The larger tire easily holds 100 lbs of minerals. The "feeder" even empty was a load for the Honda to drag. I do believe I will be able to rotate this setup as I rotate the herd.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

That last straight on pic does not look overly encouraging for ruby to be calving on schedule with the other cow.


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## trbizwiz

I was afraid of that. I guess we will see. I am not completely thrilled with her condition either. She has had all the same opportunities and pasture as baby cakes. Babycakes is even bred, adn she has a rounder fuller rump and overall in better condition. Now babycakes is shorter and wider so I guess build plays a part, but I just am surprised how big a part. Sadly I may be moving Ruby on and cutting my losses. I try to get her bred if she isnt, and sell her as a confirmed springer. It isnt so much her not breeding the first time. But more so her condition for the type of grazing I want to do. I think babycakes is a good example of it working. I guess Ruby is a good example of what to avoid. She likely is better suited to a grain operation.


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## trbizwiz

Well my grass is starting to grow. I still have them in a pasture with stockpiled standing hay, but if it gets as warm this week as it is supposed to I should be able to move them over to spring grass. Then we can start gaining hopefully. 


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## ufo_chris

I'm waiting for my grass to grow here in NE Ohio. At what temperatures does grass normally start growing. I know it depends on what kind too, but I just need an average please.
Thanks,Chris


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## trbizwiz

When the nights stay in the 50's it should start growing for you. THe cool nights and warm days seem to make for green grass, just not tall grass.


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## SCRancher

My grass has been slowly growing for about a month. Took a while to grow up from almost pure dirt. It was around 4 inches high on average with 6 inches in some places before I turned them out Sunday. I would have liked to delay grazing for another week or two but I was out of hay and very tired of locating good quality affordable hay.

I am doing my best to not leave them in any one section too long so they don't consume too much. 

The cows seemed appreciative of the green pasture and hit the few nice bits of clover first.


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## ufo_chris

trbizwiz said:


> When the nights stay in the 50's it should start growing for you. THe cool nights and warm days seem to make for green grass, just not tall grass.


Thanks so much! I was hoping it was when the temps get over 32 at night! I guess I'll have to wait a while yet:grump:
Chris


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## trbizwiz

Rye grass will come on the earliest and best some will grow in average temps of high 40's but still your best growth won't kick in at temps that low.


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## trbizwiz

My grass should be ready next week if the warmth persists. However this guy says it's ready today. 


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## trbizwiz

Above is one of my Holstein bottle calves I bought last year. Hopefully they will grow this year. I think I'll have a pretty good stand of grass if I manage it well. At least now I can move them over to stock piled grass the year if I start to get over grazed. 


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## SCRancher

Tell me how you think my cows look after a IMO hard winter. I had to feed them... a lot.

































They have been grazing for 6 days in this picture. I just moved them to a new paddock - the grass IMO is still shorter than I would like but at around 6 inches it's OK.

So spring after my first full year grazing (I started November 2009). What came up? Before I take about what I planted let me say - I have a HUGE volunteer crop of common vetch - it seems to be everywhere which I'm very happy to see it. Lots of "weeds" taking up space between the rows of fescue but the cows are eating them

I planted 3 types of clover over the late fall/winter with mixed results - Kenland Red, Advantage Ladino, and Durana some paddocks are showing a good early take - others are showing almost nothing. The paddock showing best was frost seeded the first week February. The paddocks showing the least were seeded Nov 4th - too late for fall and too soon for winter.

I think I'm sold on frost seeding clover and I'll add more next winter.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

The cattle look to be in good body condition and the hair coat has already turned slick. You cattle appear in better condition than mine. 

Once your legumes get busy contributing some nitrogen that should give the grass a boost. We are still early in the growing season and you have a little jumpstart season wise on me but my forages are more established.

I feel certain that you have seen enough benefits from rotational grazing to continue the efforts and reap the rewards. Remember to feed the tallest forage first as doing so seems to maximize the quantity and reduce stress on the newer growth.

I had visitors recently from down your way that visited to see first hand what we do. They seemed anxious to get started. Their cattle operation already is much larger than ours and I am anxious to hear about what they can do large scale.


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## SCRancher

Long winded post but really could use some advice....

Thanks for the feedback Agmantoo - my eyes are still young when assessing cattle and when I look back at the picture you posted 2/27 I thought your cattle looked better than mine.

All 40 acres of pasture started out around the same height 6 days ago - around 4 inches - it's just been some really nice growing weather the last 6 days and the last of the 4 main paddocks had time to put on that extra 2 inches. I'm not sure what I'm going to do in 3 days when I have to move them off the 10 acres they are on now. It will make for a 9 day rotation if I put them back to the first pasture. Rough estimate I have 17 AU with the size of my cattle. Paddock size/days on rotation the past 6 + 3 future days: 7/1, 11/2, 12/3, 10/3

The longer rotation is pasture quality related + that extra week growing time.
I'm not doing daily rotation right now because the farm is 12-14 miles from my house/work - I drive an F350 diesel that get's between 15-16 MPG so 2 gallons of fuel to move them - at current prices..... I don't think I need say more.

So... back to what should I do with the cattle in on Tuesday? Since the beginning of January I had been using the other 41 acres I have that is a lot of woods, brush, and marsh grass/reeds. They ate (mostly privite bushes & honeysuckle) w/o supplementation from that area for about 5 or 6 weeks before I they cleared it enough that I had to feed them hay. 

I'm trying to decide - move them into the woods for 4 or 5 days - OR once more through the pastures with a 1/2/2/2 rotation before stashing them in the woods for a week.

I walked the woods today and there just does not appear to be large re-growth yet on the forages - probably because they were knocked down to nothing by the cows.

Summary
1) rotate quickly through pastures again
2) stash in woods for 4-6 days
3) find and buy 5 more rounds of hay to feed them for a week.

Any advice about what to do next would be appreciated.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

I realize you know you are stressing the pastures. The woods have played out and will not come back as strong as before. You will get a lot more grazing in total to let the pastures continue to grow. Within a couple of weeks, maybe less, with rotation the pastures will support the herd until early July. Me, I would feed some cheap hay and I would put the animals on rotation once the hay is consumed. The short rest on the pastures created by the hay and an every 3 day rotation off the growing grass will do wonders. This is a critical period for getting the grass underway and grazing it short at this time will come back to haunt you.


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## trbizwiz

I second that. I made the same mistake last year. My forage never recovered during each rest the stand got weaker. By fall I had nothing left and then came the droit. See if you can rent some local standing pasture that's been un grazed. It won't be great but maybe better than feeding hay and your pasture will thNk you all year.


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## SCRancher

Thanks guys - I appreciate the feedback - I'll find some hay 5 rounds usually lasts me around 6-7 days.

Last thing I really want to do is to set back the pasture - I would like to keep it 4 inches or higher from now on. Like you Trbizwiz I grazed too short last year and it cost me - trying really hard to avoid that this year.


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## trbizwiz

It's not just a matter of grazing short. The plants are developing roots right now. If you graze now they will spend energy regrowing the top rather than the root. 
Most of mine is 6 to 8 inches tall and emerald green right now thanks to 2 tons of litter per acre and rain. But I want to get to that fast growth period before I put the herd on it. Right now the grass is growing well but ITs slow. I presume that's because it's developing it's root structure. Soon it should start growing fast I presume that's when the roots are nearing maturity. Those mature deep roots are what will keep grass going during heat and shorter droughts. Plus they are doing soil repair. The sub soil is soft from freeze thaw effect and spring rain. They can somewhat break that hard Pan and reach minerals and water that they otherwise could not. Plus well rooted soil will hold more water and have less plugging issues in ester weather. 
These are just my theories from what I have royally messed up and a little reading I have done. I may be completely off base but it's the basis for my plan for this year.


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## agmantoo

Here are a couple of photos that will give you an idea of the differences caused by grazing. Starting left to right you can see where I have grazed this month. The first 1/4 of the field has not been grazed since the first of March, the second 1/4 was grazed last week working from top of the page to the bottom, the 3rd 1/4 is being grazed from the bottom of the pic toward the top, and the last 1/4 on the extreme right was grazed the absolute last of Feb. The animals have been rotated daily and you can see from the color variances how the grass has recovered. Even the pugging in the center of the pic is evident when we had the heavy rain.









Here is an area that has not been grazed since last Nov


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## SCRancher

I one day aspire to have my grass look as thick, healthy, and filled with clover as yours - makes me green with envy!
Here is the pasture they just got moved from.








The foreground is a very stubborn poor spot then it get's to healthier soil. You can see where the fertilizer trucks drove - the dark green lines - leads me to believe that I need more nitrogen.

I can just see the cows to the far right and back hugging the tree line.


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## bugsbunny

I've been reading this thread for a few nights. So much information in here.


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## Hollerhavenfarm

Here in Pa we still do not look as good as the Agmantoo pics from 2/27. 
The pics from 3/20 are interesting from a density perspective. There sure are alot of black dots in that paddock. I think it shows the viability of rotational grazing, when you look at the adjacent spaces that were grazed and the lush ungrazed portion

Just did my frost seeding of red clover. - if the weather holds I have just 1 more section to overseed w/ clover and grass mix. Hoping to finish fencing project by end of April. 

Sure helps to see how other are doing.


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## trbizwiz

Against my better judgement, I started my herd on my spring pasture today. I have had them off it since last October. The forage was very over grazed last year and combined with a very dry fall. It is just now recovering. It is nearing 10 inches tall, but it's not a thick as I would like. If I dont get great recovery after 1 grazing, Ill move them back over to my leased winter pasture next door. 
In my area with poorly formed grazing skills and dry weather it seems about an acre per cow in the spring/summer and a separate acre per cow in the fall/winter winter, so you can allow good recovery in teh off season. This will allow you to plant seasonal forages as well. That may be helpful in a grass finishing operation. 
i suspect when my grazing skills improve and my soil improves 1.5 acres of even rotation will be pleanty.
Ill try to post up so pics of mine tonight or tomorrow. I wan in a hurry at noon. I wanted to move them over at noon because I figured the brix would be highest at noon. I only get an hour lunch, and moving them took most of that. P{lus I had to check on my new chicks and turkeys. Busy spring so far, but I am lovin it.
I am actually quite proud of my stand right now. from a distance it looks quite nice, but as I said it's not as thick as I was hoping for. my rye grass adn cereal rye are coming on strong, I assume the clover and fescue will catch on in a bit. The litter was money well spent. Hopefully pasturing my own will have the same effect from here on out. I'll pasture 50 this spring adn then 300 to 500 this fall if the spring flock goes well. I can rotate the 500 through the whole pasture one time with out destroying the forage with piles of litter. 
I am hoping to use the broilers as pasture fertilizers, as well as income while building my herd. My tax lady doesnt like to see no income 3 years in a row. She says its an audit alert. And unfortunately this business is too expensive not to write off the expenses, but it is a 5 year plan to make any money unless you are raising feeders. My plan is to sell finished beef, and poultry.


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## SCRancher

If it's 10 inches of fescue I would say your just fine. I think you are just fine if it's 10 inches of cereal rye as well although I would think with cereal rye two inches taller would be better.

I feel for you with the thickness - mine is pretty thin as well - not full looking like agmantoo's grass looks.

Between being row planted and plugging spring a year ago it's very looking in a lot of places.


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## trbizwiz

Yes I agree 10 inches of fescue would be great. The cereal rye is the 10 inch grass. Some clover is up to 6 inches most is 4. The alfalfa is maybe 2 inches. Fescue is 3 to 4 inches. Here are some pics from this evening. They got moved on to this pasture at noon and at the time of these pics around 1830 they had just been moved to a smaller paddock. 
Oh I guess I'll have to switch to tapatalk to post the pics from my phone. So they will be in the next post


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## trbizwiz

In the next pic you can see the previously grazed foreground and the now grazed background Ruth my herd








Some interesting bugs in a fresh pattie. You can tell the sweet green grass is loosening them up a bit, however their rumps are still clean. 








The next pic shows a nice stand and this us representative of about 80% of the pasture, but the other 20% is disappointing. That will be my project for repairing this year. Glad I have a small grass drill. 










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## Allen W

trbizwiz

I don't know what the right answer is for you, but if you don't use the cereal rye it will bolt after while and not be any good to you. It looks like your is hasn't or is just starting to send up tillers so you in good shape yet. Once it starts sending up tillers, stems, its quality will go down as it gets closer to maturity and puts its energy into making seed. Looks like you have young calves on it, they should do well.

If the rye is still real leafy it wouldn't hurt to give the cattle access to some dry hay, as an old vet used to say some long hay. They can gobble the rye up so fast and it being just leaves will ball up in their stomach and cause them to bloat. adding the hay, fiber, keeps the stomach working better.


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## trbizwiz

Thanks, I have some hay, Ill give it to them too. I grazed the rye too late last year, and they would not touch it. We will see how it goes this year, but I probably wont plant it next year. I actaully planted it last fall, hoping for a winter crop but it was too dry and never germinated so now its coming up.


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## Gymno

these last posts brought up a question. If i continue to manage my pasture by clipping and grazing, and not overgrazing. What is the best way to encourage a pasture to "thicken"?


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## agmantoo

Gymno said:


> these last posts brought up a question. If i continue to manage my pasture by clipping and grazing, and not overgrazing. What is the best way to encourage a pasture to "thicken"?


I get this question frequently from visitors to my place. The absolute best method with grass IMO is to get a full stand from the initial planting. The soil needs to have the PH correct and the fertility to grow the crop being planted, a good preparation and quality seed that are adaptable to the area put down timely and at the correct depth. Rain and some luck also go a long ways.:happy0035: As I have stated previously I do not like drill seeded plantings for pasture. The result in the best of times is a number of rows of plants that will shade the middles thus smothering young starting grass sprouts that may try to emerge. Broadcasting seed will get a uniform distribution of the seed over the soil but it may be more difficult to get a good germination. I typically will broadcast 20% more seed than I would drill. I also factor for the fact that most seed may be only 85% viable. If one must drill I suggest that about 30% of the seed be broadcast prior to drilling and then the remaining 70% of the seed drilled. Plant the grass only first then go for the legumes once the grass is growing. I plant mostly perennial clovers and I broadcast them usually when the cattle will be on the area so they can "walk" the seed into the soil. I also throw a few handfuls of seed into the mineral feeder so the cattle can eat and pass them in their waste. This does a good job of distributing the seed with no effort by me. The time required for me to get a good established complete ground covering is 3 years, sometimes longer if there is minimal topsoil. To reduce weed population without herbicides in the paddocks, I truly need as much ground cover as possible. The money to be spent on herbicides can better be spent on applying more seed. Remember to always graze the tallest grass first but do not let it go to seed and let the shorter grass continue to develop its root system. The better the root system the better the foliage.


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## trbizwiz

The smaller seeds like legumes do broadcast spread and make soil contact quite well. If you broadcast larger grass type seeds you would be well served to do it after they have grazed it, and then drag harrow it after spreading, to aid in soil contact. It will spread out you litter as well, and mulch over your seed. You should get a far better stand that way. 
My drill is not supposed to leave lines. ANd it does not in the conventional sence, but if you spread the blades of grass apart you can see obvious rows. They arent much wider than the normal spacing between grass they are just oriented in perfect rows as opposed to random patterns. I think for my purposes it is worth it for the soil contact, and better germination. 
But ultimately Agman is correct in his assessment that grass is better broadcast. It just requires more preperation and luck than I am capable of.


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## agmantoo

On March 15th I decided to see what I could do with an area where the cattle were when a heavy rain fell and the cattle churned the soil into a near mortar. Here is the area as it presented itself as I arrived.









Here is the 30 plus year old tractor and equipment I used









And here is the healing as of today 24 March. I was pleasantly surprised how resilient the plants were.


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## Gymno

agmantoo said:


> I get this question frequently from visitors to my place. The absolute best method with grass IMO is to get a full stand from the initial planting. The soil needs to have the PH correct and the fertility to grow the crop being planted, a good preparation and quality seed that are adaptable to the area put down timely and at the correct depth. Rain and some luck also go a long ways.:happy0035: As I have stated previously I do not like drill seeded plantings for pasture. The result in the best of times is a number of rows of plants that will shade the middles thus smothering young starting grass sprouts that may try to emerge. Broadcasting seed will get a uniform distribution of the seed over the soil but it may be more difficult to get a good germination. I typically will broadcast 20% more seed than I would drill. I also factor for the fact that most seed may be only 85% viable. If one must drill I suggest that about 30% of the seed be broadcast prior to drilling and then the remaining 70% of the seed drilled. Plant the grass only first then go for the legumes once the grass is growing. I plant mostly perennial clovers and I broadcast them usually when the cattle will be on the area so they can "walk" the seed into the soil. I also throw a few handfuls of seed into the mineral feeder so the cattle can eat and pass them in their waste. This does a good job of distributing the seed with no effort by me. The time required for me to get a good established complete ground covering is 3 years, sometimes longer if there is minimal topsoil. To reduce weed population without herbicides in the paddocks, I truly need as much ground cover as possible. The money to be spent on herbicides can better be spent on applying more seed. Remember to always graze the tallest grass first but do not let it go to seed and let the shorter grass continue to develop its root system. The better the root system the better the foliage.


Thanks Agman...between this and the previous answers to weeding the existing pasture really helps. I have about 40 acres that i will be working on this spring and summer. Depending on $$ available i hope to start my herd and have them help with the grazing. So my plan is to graze and clip the pasture using my brush hog on its highest setting. Then in the late fall, based on what i see, do a fall seeding which is done a lot here (E Washington). Don't know if i should put in lugumes then or not. Was just thinking of seeding a good hardy grass that works well here. 

One more question about winter grazing (always one more with me),.. Had been taught to have a "sacrifice area" in the winter when it is too wet or too something for the cattle to trod. Do you ever had issues with the stockpile areas where the cattle are grazing where it gets too wet or mushy and then they semi destroy the pasture? Maybe after some heavy rains? Would it be better to herd them back up to an area that is planned to be a winter feeding area if you don't have enough stockpiled acreage?

thanks again to all of you for your help....


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Gymno, not to barge in on Agmans discussion, but I use a block of woods (actually several) to keep the cows in during high rainfall times and for a period afterward. The problem you're gonna have is that that is not compatible with year round grazing techniques(no hay), the cows have to have grazing every day. We do semi-rotational grazing (the farm is cut up into about 15 pastures that we rotate through/cut hay variably, winter feeding both stockpiled grazing and hay) but also due to the layout of the farm with small fields and large blocks of woods, we also have adjacent/between the pastures blocks of mature/pole sized pine, which is able to stand the cattle traffic. Even when we are winter grazing, if they are calling for a period of wet weather we will move into the woods and feed hay, to avoid damage to pastures. Deep winter conditions of freeze aren't a problem, it's the 3 inches + rain that comes in the spring that will destroy your pasture. The only time I will graze during soggy conditions is if I want to seed. In the fall I will do this to establish crimson clover or rye, and in the spring to establish fescue. I'm not talking about extreme wet, but if they will make about .5 to 1 inch deep pocks I will allow them to graze and walk in the seed. My opinion, if a farm is using hay along with stockpiled grazing, is it's very beneficial to have a sacrifice paddock or woodland to keep the herd during times of extreme wet, to avoid damaging the stand, which takes months if not years to recover completely.


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## agmantoo

Gymno

That mess in the pic on post 1539 occurred in a matter of hours. I had the entire herd, 96 cows and around 50 calves and 16 heifers plus the bull and two donkeys, concentrated on approximately 7/10ths of an acre and we had a heavy rain that lasted for awhile.
660 hooves milling around can do a lot of damage as you can see. I do not have this much damage very often but I can usually repair the area rather promptly. I do also have a sacrificial area most of the time. What I use for the sacrificial area is land that I am taking out of trees and putting into pasture. If the sacrificial area is accessible I use it for a loafing area in order to get the cattle manure on what is typically poor non productive land. When it is very wet I will minimize the time the cattle have to graze and move them if possible. I have a couple of pics of a damaged area that I repaired earlier than the one above that has healed. This work was done in Feb.
Damaged








repaired


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## Gymno

THanks to you both for that insight. I just wanted to make sure that cattle weren't kept on pasture even when it was really so wet that they would damage it. Mostly concerned about the winter when they are on stockpiled grass. I have a dedicated sacrfice area closer to our house, but also lots of forest area around the pastures as well. We also have another 10 acre pasture that joins the main one through a thinned forest. That could also serve well as another  area for grazing during a wet spell. 

Agman, did you just drag harrow the pasture when it was dryer to semi level it and let it grow back? Did you need to reseed or let the existing grass grow back.

Thanks to you both. Will be formulating more questions ....my best, Jim


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## agmantoo

*Agman, did you just drag harrow the pasture when it was dryer to semi level it and let it grow back? Did you need to reseed or let the existing grass grow back.*

Gymno,

I seldom take a broadcast seeder off a tractor. When I am dragging a paddock to distribute the manure and I see an area that needs attending I throw some seed out if the season is suitable.

With your question you are absolutely right.
When the area dried I used the harrow to level. The soil is no longer rock hard as it was prior getting improved. The harrow does a decent job of smoothing now. I did reseed but those seed have not germinated at this time due to the soil being cold and the length of time since the seed were applied. I should be able to seed some new sprouts this week. What you see in the pic is the old forage recovering. Good soil and a good root system will surprise a person.


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## Gabriel

Agmantoo, I see wide open space with no visible shade. Is that correct or is there shade just out of sight of the photo? If it is correct, do you run the cattle with no shade in the summer? 

My single biggest planning problem with a grazing plan has been lack of shade in many of the paddocks. 

I apologize if this has already been discussed.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
Good observation! That open space is a long rectangle and there is shade over to the sides and a few extremely large trees scattered elsewhere. The length of the rectangle is nearly 5000 ft and the far end is not visible. That pic was taken where the letter S in the word shed appears on the attached pic. Going left or right off the long view will put shade within 800 ft of travel. In the heat of summer I have observed that the herd will do most of their foraging in late afternoon and early morning.


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## trbizwiz

Hashing up an old topic but does ruby look any closer to calving?










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## agmantoo

Just a brief quiz? I took this pic by standing on my 4 wheeler and looking down. What do you folks think caused the short forage and bare spots in this pic?


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## SCRancher

Totally guessing...
First thought grubs?
Second thought deer?
Third thought poor soil structure/condition?

Hopefully you already know the answer and are just teasing us.


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## trbizwiz

As thick as that stand is UT won't matter. It will come right back.


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## southfarms

Agmantoo, along with the rest of you all,

Thank you so much for this amazing source of information! It took me a few days, but I read every page. I'm sure that I missed a lot. I noticed that Agman's pasture used to be soybean fields. I'm considering renting a piece of ground to start a pasture-based farm. It has been in soybeans for several years, and it currently has winter wheat growing on it. It's only 22 acres, but ground here is difficult to rent, especially to convert to pasture. I was curious what I might plant to start a rotational grazing pasture. The wheat will be off in June. Is there anything I can do to get started then or do I just plant fenceposts for now and start seeding in the fall? Any and all comments or suggestions will be appreciated. Also, I know very little about cattle. Any help regarding breeds, where to acquire, etc. would be helpful. I'm located in central Arkansas in the area known as the Grand Prairie. Sounds like a good place to grow grass, huh? It is Zone 7 I believe.


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## trbizwiz

That is pretty late to plant much other than sudan or sorgum. You could drill some sudan and hopefully get volunteer fescue and clover. Plant fence posts as you said and waterers. THen this fall get your grasses started. You will want to get a soil sample to the university extension. You want to know what you are starting with before you make an investment in grass and legume seed.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Southfarms, I would not recommend putting any permanent fixtures such as fencing and watering equipment on rented ground. I know from personal experience that the whims of landowners can cause you to lose your investment. We have rented land in the past and have lost investment in fencing due to that, not only the investment $$ but the time to install it etc. Rented land is best suited to either crops or hayland. If you are intent on a cattle operation I would recommend using only your own home pastures for grazing and use rented land for hay production, increasing the carrying capacity of your own land and depositing nutrients there. You can put down commercial fertilizers on rented land and as long as you get the next cutting of hay you can be assured that you got the majority of your fertilizer $$ back out of that investment. Believe me, I know how disheartening it is when you fence in a field (on a year by year agreement) and put in a watering system, re-seed, fertilize, get a great stand and improve the soil by the manure, etc. Only to have the owner after a couple of years decide to get some 'pet' animals to keep on that field, AFTER you've turned it from broomstraw and scrub to a good producing, fenced in, pasture. The loss of $$ and time invested is heartbreaking, makes you want to save and buy your own additional land instead.

We tend 20ac hayland up the road, and have cared for it better than it's been in the past 20 years. We have used that field for 5 years now and it's producing 3 times what it did when we started, because we put lots of fertilizer and fixed the ph etc. No previous user was willing to invest in it, but if you don't put anything in you don't get anything out. People in the area comment that it looks better than it ever has. But the owner's in his 80s and I know once he's gone his heirs will probably put it up for sale or something, and I won't have use of it anymore. So I won't put down anything permanent, just sufficient fertilizer and lime etc to keep it's production high. I know I can do far more if I were to fence it in and use it for rotational grazing as well, but due to the temporary situation I just use it for hay, which allows me to carry more on our own pasture. Just my 2cents, don't put any significant investments into rented land, one day you'll lose it.


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## SteveO

A question for agmantoo
When do sell or your cull your herd back as the weather dictates or the price. as you calve year round it could I guess be a continual process. 
From the looks of your growth even though we are pretty even north and south you look to be 2-3 weeks ahead of West TN already
Steve


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## Gabriel

Agman, I'd appreciate it if you'd weigh in on the thread I started about the two bull calves. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=391501


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## agmantoo

Gabriel,

I saw your post earlier but IMO this breed is not adaptable to intensive rotational grazing due to their phenotype. These two young animals do not have enough gut. Both are flat sided with small guts. When conditions mandate doing sustainable grazing without grain the animal must be able to take on large amounts of marginal forage at times. I have no way of knowing it but I feel the mature bull is being supplemented with grain.
I know nothing about your cow/heifer that you may be breeding. This is a copy paste regarding animals not specifically bred to be calving ease when bred to Piedmontese. "We do not breed until 24 months of age. We have a very low incidence of dystocia (2-10%, based on 20-40+ calves per season" To me this level of dystocia is unacceptable. I had rather have one live smaller calf to market than a number of dead larger calves to deal with.


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## Gabriel

You're saying that a % of Piedmontese calves have dystocia? It's a new breed to me, and while I've done some reading up on them I know there's plenty I don't know about them. 

When you say "marginal forage" what exactly do you mean? Are you referring to the stockpiled grazing, or junk hay fed in drought times as a stop gap measure?

Yes, I believe you're correct about the bull, he gets some grain.


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## agmantoo

Dystocia occurs in all breeds. Some breeds do have a higher percentage. For discussion, holsteins are a large dairy breed and they need a lot of feed for maintenance. Most dairy farmers want to get their heifers into production early. Rather than waiting for the holstein to reach full maturity weight and breeding at a later age to reduce calving issues they will breed the heifer at around 15 months of age and they will breed to a smaller species bull to promote calving ease. The heifer will go into milk production and mature into an adult. For the second calf and afterward the cow will then possibly be considered for raising the larger breeds.

What I am referring to as marginal forage is forage that for whatever reason is not the quality one would prefer for their animals to eat. Drought conditions and unseasonal weather can create such situations. Cattle that get nothing but grass and legumes need the capacity to take on quantities of such feed in order to extract the nutrients they need. 

Do not confuse stockpiled grazing as feeding marginal or low quality. Even the common fescue grass that many folks look down on has terrific levels of protein in late Fall following frost. Do some research on the protein level of fescue and you will be surprised.


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## gwithrow

we have floribunda roses flourishing in many of out pastures....they need to go, can any one offer a suggestion as to the best way to get rid of them...they seem to really be multiplying and are everywhere this year....I don't know where they came from but I wish they would go back....


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## Allen W

Check with a local farm chemical dealer, Remedy is one possibility but they have come out with a couple of different chemicals the last couple of years that might be better for wild roses. Follow the directions on timing and plant growth to get the most benefit.


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## agmantoo

I believe that you have mulitflora roses if you have a rose problem in the pasture. A pasture approved herbicide for multiflora rose is Spike 20P. Care must be taken with spike 20 P as it will kill trees.


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## trbizwiz

didn't it kill some trees at Auborn this year?? I think a guy got arrested for that.


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## trbizwiz

Just thought I would chime in. Ruby calved a little red polled bull 4/19, and Babycakes calved a little bull 4/20. Both are doing well. The calves even nibble on the cereal rye. The guy I bought Ruby from as a weened heifer came by to see her calf. He was impressed with their condition. HE asked if I am still doing that all grass thing. I told him "see that round bale over there". He said yes and noted it was 85 % still there, I said that's all the hay I bought last year. He was amazed. He said how much feed adn supplement did your buy. I told him other than a red salt lick, none. HE just said wow. He was quite taken with my stand of forage as well. Might have a convert from grain to grass. We will see, old habbits die hard. 
By the way, I am guestimating Ruby's Tuesday weighed about 65 lbs. He was slightly heavier than a sac of feed, and cupcakes is probably around 75 lbs. Both heifers calved completely unassisted. Cupcakes sire was a 105 lb calf at birth, adn cupcakes is one of his first calves. I know bad descision for a heifer, but he was exactly the build I was looking for. He is shorter than babycakes, and and very stocky. It seemed worth the risk. But as baby cakes kept getting bigger and bigger I got a little worried. Luckily all worked out great. My advice dont ever do that to a heifer, but I just had to wing it. Plus I assumed with an all grass diet and no hay, my calves would just naturally be a little smaller. Maybe the grass worked in my favor for this reason. One more reason grass is for cows. 
Thanks to Agman and everyone here for all the help over the last 18 months. I could not have done it with out you guys.


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## agmantoo

Great news! Thanks for sharing. I would like to see a pic of the cows udders since calving if circumstances permit. Thanks


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## trbizwiz

Tapatalk says the server is busy now. I'll try again later. The pics are in my phone. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trbizwiz

Thus one is baby cakes









This one is ruby. The little guy just nursed her 









Hopefully they will slick off soon. They look like they are starting.


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## Gabriel

Congrat's, trbizwiz! My two angus x brangus cows are due to calve any day now. They're somewhat happier in TN than they were in TX... :hysterical:

I have one major problem with using MIG on the new place. Lack of shade! 










You can see the one copse of trees more or less in the middle. Even with using long strips like Agman does, instead of squares, there's no way to get a rotation going. Well, almost no way. There's one triangular paddock not shown at the top left that has shade all the way around it. The problem with that is that there's no water lines up that far. Also, it looks like I'll have to go mostly with sheep due to the lower start up cost, which means the farther away from the house they are, the more danger from predators.


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## trbizwiz

They only need shade a few hours per day. Consider a layout that allows shade and water access through the use of permenant lanes. Put water near shade. Allow afternoon access to the lanes to shade. Or switch to a heat tollerant breed. Theoretically a red breed is more heat and sun tollerant. Red polls are supposed to be. One of mine did great last summer, no panting or anything. The other struggled some. So breed alone wont get it done. But check out some sun tollerant breeds during the heat of summer and try to select those grazing while everyone else is lounging. 
Hope that helps. Good luck, It sure looks like a nice place you have there.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz The two new mother cows have a nice udder for rotational grazing, adequate for nourishing the calves but not excessive thus conserving body fat to re-breed. The animal behind baby cakes appears to possibly be carrying some parasites. Maybe you need a broader spectrum wormer or it could just be the picture.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel 
With all those trees surrounding your property do you have a neighbor that would consider leasing to you a small parcel of shade trees? Additionally on the West side of your property those trees, provided they are tall, will cast a shadow into your property to benefit.


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## trbizwiz

Yes I was thinking it's time for a drench or injection. I have both available. But I have to cowboy them fir a shot so I'm leaning towards a drench. What do you guys think ivomech or cydectin. I've read cydectin is friendlier to dung Beatles.


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## trbizwiz

The mangy guy is a Holstein jersey cross. But hopefully a little wormer will help him slick off.


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## trbizwiz

Here is some forage they are grazing today









This is forage grazed a few days ago











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## godsgapeach

Hey all. Just checking in following the storms that have blown through. Agman, did you fare well through y'all storms last week? Our town got pounded by a couple of tornadoes during the night last night, but no fatalities, thankfully. We're all good here. How are y'all?


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## SuperDog

agmantoo,

I was wondering. You have had that Murray Grey bull now for awhile. How do that calves look? Also, are you having any problems at all. I only have a few animals right now which are angus cross. I have them AIed and was thinking about using Murray Grey this year. 

Thanks
Mike


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach said:


> Hey all. Just checking in following the storms that have blown through. Agman, did you fare well through y'all storms last week? Our town got pounded by a couple of tornadoes during the night last night, but no fatalities, thankfully. We're all good here. How are y'all?


We were fortunate in regard to the tornado that came through. No one in my vacinity was killed. There was some major property damage, roofs blown off and many trees down. I still have a half dozen or so trees on the perimeter fence. We managed to get some major wind the night that you folks had the tornadoes.

Are you getting enough moisture the keep the pastures growing? Kind of dry here.


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## agmantoo

SuperDog said:


> agmantoo,
> 
> I was wondering. You have had that Murray Grey bull now for awhile. How do that calves look? Also, are you having any problems at all. I only have a few animals right now which are angus cross. I have them AIed and was thinking about using Murray Grey this year.
> 
> Thanks
> Mike


I am not displeased with the MurrayGrey bulls performance as a sire. He manages to get the cycling females bred and is attentive to his responsibilities.

His offspring are an improvement to my feeder calves sales. My cows are commercial Angus and he brings some improvement in the muscling. Would I buy another Murray Grey. Yes, but only if he was raised of grass only. My bull came from a nonfescue area and was supplemented with grain. He has never adapted to the all grass diet. This occurence is not new to me as the Angus bulls I purchased in the past had the same problem.

I believe you will be satisfied with Murray Grey offspring and there should be some hybrid virgor with the cross. The calves are small at birth but gain rapidly. The salebarn identifies the calves as smokies and thus far the price has compared with the blacks with little or no docking for not being black.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo - I clipped parts of my pastures to knock down the seed heads mid April but I must have done it too early because they are producing seed heads again/still. Since in an earlier post you said I'm about 2 weeks ahead of you is it time to knock down seed heads? The fields I did not clip are now starting to produce pollen. Can you discuss this subject a bit - I remember reading somewhere in this tomb of a thread that you clip the fescue to keep it from going to seed to keep it productive. I tried researching that topic on the net but found nothing that really says what I think I read here.

I'm using my brush cutter with new blades - I think it's leaving me around 6-7 inches.

Oh an my cows are fat and happy but I have had to douse them once already for fly's and I'll probably do it again in another week and 1/2. I am going to put fly tags in but I wanted to wait till the end of May. Seems a discussion on fly control for rotational grazing may be in order given the time of year. I put up a cattle rub in the trees but A) they ignored it and B) they are not there long enough to really discover it.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher said:


> Agmantoo - I clipped parts of my pastures to knock down the seed heads mid April but I must have done it too early because they are producing seed heads again/still. Since in an earlier post you said I'm about 2 weeks ahead of you is it time to knock down seed heads? The fields I did not clip are now starting to produce pollen. Can you discuss this subject a bit - I remember reading somewhere in this tomb of a thread that you clip the fescue to keep it from going to seed to keep it productive. I tried researching that topic on the net but found nothing that really says what I think I read here.
> 
> I'm using my brush cutter with new blades - I think it's leaving me around 6-7 inches.
> 
> Oh an my cows are fat and happy but I have had to douse them once already for fly's and I'll probably do it again in another week and 1/2. I am going to put fly tags in but I wanted to wait till the end of May. Seems a discussion on fly control for rotational grazing may be in order given the time of year. I put up a cattle rub in the trees but A) they ignored it and B) they are not there long enough to really discover it.


SCRancher,

I do not think your timing was off on the clipping. Even though we have needed more rain imo, we have gotten enough to have a good stand of grass. I would have clipped higher if possible to where the just the ends of the grass blades were clipped along with the seed heads. I have a problem getting my rotary cutter high enough above the grass blades also. Growing grass will recover from the first clipping and attempt to produce seed a second time with good growing conditions. Just clip a second time. The probability is good that the grass will not reproduce seed after the second clipping. Instead, with rain, it should increase the amount of foliage.

Regarding the flies, I do not have a solution for them. I encourage the survival of dung beetles at my place and I do not want to kill the beneficial bugs and earth worms. I do have a back rub near my main mineral feeder but it does not do much for fly elimination. 

You could arrange the rub you have where the cattle have to pass under it to access water or minerals forcing them to use the apparatus.


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## SCRancher

Thanks for the info on clipping - I was wondering - I was going to clip the rest of the pastures that had not been clipped this weekend but with mother's day it just didn't work out that I had time. I'll just have to spend time when I can as soon as I can and continue clipping.

Dung Beetles - yes I try to encourage them as well. I am plan on doing any worming in early December and hope the chemicals have reduced or eliminated effects by the time it warms back up.

I am wondering if my current fly strategy will/does effect the beetles. I basically doused my cattle with Pyritherin mixed with diesel fuel. It is an instant kill off and lasts me about two weeks. Towards the end of the month this I was going to put fly tags in their ears - not sure what kind but probably not a Pyritherin based so they don't build immunity to my spot treatment. Any practical experence with ear tags anyone can offer would be much appreciated, I have never used them.


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## trbizwiz

I sold my 2 holstein steers Saturday. I wanted to move them while prices are still high, I am afraid that prices may drop when summer heat arrives. Anyway, I have an opportunity to buy a few more heifers related to Baby Cakes this fall. There are 5 available that were born 2 months ago that will ween in october. So I will either buy 2 or 4 (a friend asked if he bought 2 for me to raise, he just wants 1 steer a year from the pair I get to keep all heifers and if 2 bulls are born I get one, though if 2 heiffers are born I'll probably need to give him a steer out of my herd. Either way sounds like a fair deal, but I need to consider it and pray about it. Good business, makes bad friends). Selling the steers will help with the capital to buy my 2 heifers.

Well the first guy to call me about the steers came out the next morning and when he laid eyes on them he wanted them. He asked if I would sell anymore. He was very interested in my grazing system, so I showed him around and gave him the info on how to set it up. I also recomended this thread. He was very impressed with the condition of the animals on an all grass diet with no hay. Most people just cant believe that part. 

So thanks agman and every one here for your help. Hopefully in a few years I'll have many more acres and a nice big herd of red polls to keep my friends neighbors up in beef. And maybe I can retire and farm full time. Oh to dream.


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## ufo_chris

Sorry I know the answer is in this long thread somewhere but here is my Question. 
I'm ready to buy a harrow ,will probably buy one of those drag harrows at TSC as I have been looking for an old used one and can't find one.
Those ones that look like chainlink fence with spikes.
I have also seen spikeless ones,would those work? I'm thinking they would not get close enough to the ground.The patties are pretty flat with all this rain we've had!
How soon do you use it? 
If you are on a 40 day rotation do you have to do it right away? Will it work better if used right away or when they dry a bit? (on braking up the patties )
I know I don't have time to go out every day so what is the shortest time after the cows can graze on it. I figure you have to do it while the grass is ate down too ,so maybe every few days would be doable.
Thanks so much,
Chris


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## Gabriel

I finally got my rotation started! Gave 'em about twice the sq. footage I thought they'd need for the first day, then gave another 50% for day two, wanted them to be totally comfortable with the fence before things got tightened up. They seem to be adjusting well. Only have 6 so far, but they sure seem to compete for the available pasture more than they used to.


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## trbizwiz

Congrats. It is a good feeling to get something started. 
I sold 2 steers last weekend, and I have been very surprised how much competition effects consumption. My herd has dropped consumption to about 30 percent with the exit of 22% of the herd. That is kind of flipped from what I expected. But they just seem to have lost their drive to consume forage. I have a very nice stand. Some of the cereal rye is over mature, but everything else is perfect. It may just be an adaptation phase that they will soon pass through. But I caution anyone else selling before spring flush is over. I doubt I will do it again. My reasoning was high prices and even higher demand. I got over market price selling direct off the farm. Being all grass fed and these being antibiotic free probably helped in that. But my herd is not keeping up now, and I am not equipped to clip. So I may just end up shortening my rotation and stockpiling. that may just get me through July on a higher grade of forage. Who knows.


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## Gabriel

Chris, have you thought about using a section of chain link fence with some weights on it? I know a couple of people who say it works well. I haven't done it as I prefer to let my chickens do it for me.


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## ufo_chris

Gabriel said:


> Chris, have you thought about using a section of chain link fence with some weights on it? I know a couple of people who say it works well. I haven't done it as I prefer to let my chickens do it for me.


Thanks,yes I heard that somewhere before, I'm just thinking that would only work on a real short pasture ,am I wrong?
I'm thinking the spikes on the harrow chain link thing would help a lot,no?
I've also heard of old box springs being used.......
I have chickens and ducks too,but they do not do the whole pasture good enough 
How many do you have? I have 8 ducks and around 8 chickens(most the time) and maybe 8 acres.
The ducks go in the pasture way more and farther than the chickens do.
Thanks,Chris


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## Gabriel

ufo_chris said:


> Thanks,yes I heard that somewhere before, I'm just thinking that would only work on a real short pasture ,am I wrong?
> I'm thinking the spikes on the harrow chain link thing would help a lot,no?
> I've also heard of old box springs being used.......
> I have chickens and ducks too,but they do not do the whole pasture good enough
> How many do you have? I have 8 ducks and around 8 chickens(most the time) and maybe 8 acres.
> The ducks go in the pasture way more and farther than the chickens do.
> Thanks,Chris


Yeah, I doubt it would work very well on tall pasture. 

I have about 85 pullets, they don't range as far as the older ones do and it's a bit hit and miss currently. They're still learning. Regardless, I'd rather gather eggs than burn diesel.


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris said:


> Sorry I know the answer is in this long thread somewhere but here is my Question.
> I'm ready to buy a harrow ,will probably buy one of those drag harrows at TSC as I have been looking for an old used one and can't find one.
> Those ones that look like chainlink fence with spikes.
> I have also seen spikeless ones,would those work? I'm thinking they would not get close enough to the ground.The patties are pretty flat with all this rain we've had!
> How soon do you use it?
> If you are on a 40 day rotation do you have to do it right away? Will it work better if used right away or when they dry a bit? (on braking up the patties )
> I know I don't have time to go out every day so what is the shortest time after the cows can graze on it. I figure you have to do it while the grass is ate down too ,so maybe every few days would be doable.
> Thanks so much,
> Chris


I have had one of the spiked versions that resemble the chainlink. With the spikes down the results very minimal. I turned it over and was more satisfied. I am unfamiliar with the harrow sold a TS. The worn out harrow that I use has only nubs for spikes and the crossbars do all the work. IMO the flatter that the harrow hugs the earth the better the manure is scattered.

If I were doing a 40 day rotation I would want to scatter the manure within three days following grazing. The grass will be reemerging and I would want to minimize the extra stress to the new growth by postponing the dragging.

If you cannot adhere to that schedule, wait until after a rain as the patties will burst and spread better when wet.


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## SuperDog

For a drag I bolted three large truck tires together laying on their sides. I attached a cable and hook it to the 4-wheeler. It seems to work pretty good for me and its cheap. But I have a small place. If I had to do a 100 acres, I would come up with something else.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks Guys, I did not realize that a flatter one would work better.......
I guess that's why it's good to ask.
Looked at TSC again and they are pretty heavy but $279 for a 4' x4' one!
I thought that was way to steep.
Northern Tool has one that looks even more like chain link and a lot cheaper,forget the price, but might as well use chain link then.
Actually have some chain link so I'm gonna try that when I get a chance. 
Should I still weigh it down?
How about threading some scrap steel bars through it? Would that work?

Just curious, If you don't distribute the manure, how long b/f the cattle will eat of the 'soiled' area again? I have all these little hills of nice long grass in my pasture! Second rotation did not get ate!
Thanks,Chris


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris....Your question*If you don't distribute the manure, how long b/f the cattle will eat of the 'soiled' area again? I have all these little hills of nice long grass in my pasture! Second rotation did not get ate!
Thanks,Chris *

My observation is that as long as the manure patty remains the cattle will avoid eating the grass from the area. I see cattle walk up to where the residue is barely visible and smell. Seems as if they get a whiff they will ignore the area and eat elsewhere. Again, my observation, once the manure is spread/distributed over a large area the cattle seem to accept the new growth as OK.


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## SCRancher

I got a 6ft x 6ft chain drag harrow from Agri-South in Florance SC for $200 - I drove down and picked it up. I used it spikes down trying to sow clover seed last fall - I'll just use it to break patties now because I had much better results with frost seeding my clover.

I'm not dragging right now because the patties are not really clumps but pretty runny from the fresh forage and the dung beetles are incorporating them quickly leaving only the top crust.

I liked the picture agmantoo posted after winter of his dragging - think I'll do that too - drag after winter when the pasture is short just prior to spring regrowth.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo,

A few posts ago I asked about clipping seed heads - I knew I had read it here but I had also read it elsewhere. I just ran across it again in this link: http://www.tnbeefcattleinitiative.org/neel.htm

Second to the last bullet in the article: "Clip pastures to prevent seed head formation on fescue to control weeds and to maintain quality of forage. It also helps to reduce eye irritation."

Anyway thanks again for the advice - I didn't get all the seed heads just due to the nature of using a brush cutter to cut the pasture but I got enough of them. While cooler weather is great for growing fescue I do hate clipping my pastures with a 6 foot brush cutter - takes too much time.

I'm trying to decide when I should put my cows into the old marsh area that is growing mostly Johnson grass I believe along with various wet feet types of plants along with all manor of trees and vines that have leafy branches in cattle browse reach.

I was thinking of July and August resting my fescue pasture then but I'm not sure - I don't want the Johnson grass to get too mature and I'm trying to already think about when and how I'm going to rest enough of my pasture during the fall to carry me through the winter. The marsh area will play a part in that also; I figure I will take 20 acres of fescue out of rotation starting in September and use 20 acres of fescue with the 40 acres of old marsh and woods in rotation.

I just don't have enough experience with the marsh and woods area since I just got it fenced in over the winter and it saved me from an even larger feed bill.


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## Hollerhavenfarm

I use a 6 x 6 on the front of my chain link fence drag and it works slick.

Also good after frost seeding to get the seed to the soil.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher said:


> Agmantoo,
> 
> A few posts ago I asked about clipping seed heads - I knew I had read it here but I had also read it elsewhere. I just ran across it again in this link: http://www.tnbeefcattleinitiative.org/neel.htm
> 
> Second to the last bullet in the article: "Clip pastures to prevent seed head formation on fescue to control weeds and to maintain quality of forage. It also helps to reduce eye irritation."
> 
> Anyway thanks again for the advice - I didn't get all the seed heads just due to the nature of using a brush cutter to cut the pasture but I got enough of them. While cooler weather is great for growing fescue I do hate clipping my pastures with a 6 foot brush cutter - takes too much time.
> 
> I'm trying to decide when I should put my cows into the old marsh area that is growing mostly Johnson grass I believe along with various wet feet types of plants along with all manor of trees and vines that have leafy branches in cattle browse reach.
> 
> I was thinking of July and August resting my fescue pasture then but I'm not sure - I don't want the Johnson grass to get too mature and I'm trying to already think about when and how I'm going to rest enough of my pasture during the fall to carry me through the winter. The marsh area will play a part in that also; I figure I will take 20 acres of fescue out of rotation starting in September and use 20 acres of fescue with the 40 acres of old marsh and woods in rotation.
> 
> I just don't have enough experience with the marsh and woods area since I just got it fenced in over the winter and it saved me from an even larger feed bill.


SCRancher,
I am already conserving previously grazed fescue areas as a means of stockpiling fescue to aid in getting through late July and all of August. I should get some regrowth on these set aside areas here in June and in July the fescue will go dormant. Currently I am completing the grazing of the fescue in my bottom land that is damp and is also planted in crab grass. The crab grass should grow till late JUly and maybe mid August if it rains. Early September with rain the fescue will come out of dormancy. At that time I will set aside enough acreage to grow my Winter stockpiled feed. At the same time I will go to a frequent rotation on the growing non stockpiled acres. As the animals eat these allocated areas down to where the fescue is short I will reseed that area with Marshall rye grass. The Marshall rye grass will be used in late Winter/early Spring as the Winter stockpiled fescue grazing concludes.
Try to match the grazing of your marsh and your existing grasses to replicate what I am doing as far as timing to get through the Summer. I have also sold a load of feeder calves and culled a few cows to reduce the load on the pastures and the needs of some of the cows.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo,

Thanks for the timing information I'll try to do that.

Do you broadcast your Marshall rye grass to plant it? I was considering planting some cereal rye in September - especially in my thin areas - I was wondering why you selected rye grass over cereal rye?

I found an AC 66 harvester for sale - I have not looked at it yet. How far is Conover, NC from you? That's where the machine is at - I'm debating on trying my hand at harvesting fescue like you do - especially since my fescue is MaxQ and reseeding that stuff costs a fortune! I broadcast 10 bags over my fields in November just prior to what little rain we received but I can't tell a difference. I just have never used a combine of any sort so I'm a bit nervous about wasting my money on a machine I know nothing about. Price is right however but I haven't looked at the machine yet.


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## SCRancher

More about my rotational grazing setup.
First picture is how the property looked the summer after it came out of cotton prior to me planting the pasture.









In this picture you can see the permanent cross fencing lines via a faint difference in grass height. Also at the top left you can see a darker line running at an angle for a short distance before it intersects with the permanent cross fencing.









Here is a picture 3 weeks after I had poultry litter spread at the end of February. You can see cross fencing posts on each side - the posts are 100 feet apart so there is a hydrant every other post. This was taken near the front facing the back you can see where the litter spreader was ran because of the dark green.









Next up - the mobile water/mineral cart. I empty it by simply tilting it on it's side to dump the water. If I'm moving it a short distance I move it by hand - otherwise I hook it up to the 4 wheeler.









This picture is the connection between the water cart and the buried water lines. It's a Plasson hydrant connected to the water lines with it's other end screwed onto a normal garden hose. The Plasson is a very simple to use - just push the hose male end into the hydrant female and it locks into place. Simple thumb press on the catch to release.









I have 2 buried water lines each around 2000 feet with a hydrant every 200 feet. Each of the buried water lines serves 2 of the 200 feet wide by ~2500 feet long sub-divisions except the one odd-ball shaped one near the woods. I have 2 strand cross fence to keep the cattle out of the woods on the top creek side which is the woods/marsh area I refer to at times.

At both front and back of each of the 4 permanent lanes I have 20 foot wide spring gates that allow me to move cattle and equipment between lanes. I use 9 strand poly-twine as cross fencing in each lane to size to whatever I need with step-in fiberglass posts to support the twine where needed.

Last year I was giving them too little forcing the cattle to crop the forage too close and making my cows lose condition. This year I am doing the opposite giving them 1/2 of a lane in 3 of the lanes for 4-5 days, the odd ball lane is not cross-fenced and they get that for 5 days.

Because I don't live on my property yet I am not using rotational grazing to it's fullest potential with daily moves and better sizing of the sub-divisions. It is simply not cost effective for me to drive out there daily to move the cattle with the fuel prices as they are. It's a 25 mile round trip which is about 2 gallons of diesel in my truck.

This is just FYI so people can see another example of a rotational grazing setup.


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## trbizwiz

Rye grass is more palatable to cows. Mark schatzker alludes that rye grass makes better tasting beef. In my experience cereal rye comes up earlier in spring and lasts later in the fall. I like to use both in my rotation. But seed every year and litter every 3 years and a mineral are my only inputs so I justify my seed expense that way. I think when I have a well established forage reseeding don't be needed. I'll let 10% or so go to seed and that should do it just by dragging the fields. You can even get a portion of your annuals reseeded this way I think.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

I share your thoughts on the rye grass and the reestablishment of the annuals. Currently I am attempting to determine at what stage rye grass seed has to reach toward maturity and will still germinate. I am wanting to clip the tops/seeds as early as possible and yet get the annual to reseed itself.


As for as cereal rye grass, I am not interested in it for feed. To me it is best used as a nurse crop and for the establishment of vegetative matter in poor soil when attempting to rebuild eroded or depleted ground. Pearl millet is my choice for needed emergency feed warm weather feed and rye grass for cold weather.


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## trbizwiz

I read a out a grain crop that is a cross between wheat and rye. It is supposed to have the cold tollerance of rye with the palatability of wheat. They were out last fall when I wanted to plant but I want to try it this fall.


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## Gabriel

trbizwiz said:


> I read a out a grain crop that is a cross between wheat and rye. It is supposed to have the cold tollerance of rye with the palatability of wheat. They were out last fall when I wanted to plant but I want to try it this fall.


Speaking of wheat, why not use the winter variety?


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## agmantoo

Triticale is the grain you are referencing. I have fed it to hogs. Never grazed it however. It is much like corn in feed value.


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## trbizwiz

Yes triticale. My brain has stopped working over the last six months for some reason. I am going to drill that this september early. I know early sept is too early, but late september doesnt ever yield me a fall crop of anything. My cows graze cereal rye just fine even when it is a little mature, but I ma definately interested in higher sugar. I have tons of protein and plenty of fiber. My tric will never get a grain head either. 
My goal is birth to finish beef so grain for forage plays a role in the finish process. I have confirmed with RPUSA that grain as forage meets the definaition of grass fed beef. However the grain must be consumed in an immature state as a growing plant. I can not harvest it and feed it. that would be dishonest and counter productive for my goals. But you can not get a fat cow on fescue, and my goal is to eventually produce meat that looks like usda prime. Mine will never grade prime because my beef will not get processed until around 30 months, when they are truly finished. 
All that being said, if I am not happy with my product quality after the first few processings Ill probably revert to the feeder calf plan the Agman does. 
I really want to produce the best beef I have ever tasted with sustainable inputs. But not everyone can finish cattle to usda prime and very few can do it with forage only diets. SO for me it is a personal challenge. I wont however throw away good money after bad to do it. I will try a few things that research seems to indicate will work. If it doesnt I'll buy a homozygus black angus bull to breed to my red poll cows and heifers and raise some nice little feeders. Not sure what color they will be because I think the polls are homozygus red. I guess they will be one or the other. 
Side note I am going to drill some type of sorghum forage like sudan this week. Is anyone else using that? ANy recomendations? I am in southwest Missouri.


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## agmantoo

I would plant pearl millet. It is drought tolerant and will not bloat animals.


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## trbizwiz

Is it too late for pearl millet?


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## bruce2288

SCrancher, Hopefully you are aware of the risk of prussic acid poisoning with Johnson grass. You can graze it, but careful of the regrowth and I would not have your cattle in that pasture during the first frost.

trbizwiz I have planted various sorghum-sudans and millet, all are fairly drought tolerant. I favor the sorghum-sudan hybrids because of the greater leaf mass. Prussic acid poisoning is something to be aware when grazing these. Do not graze regrowth until is is atleast 2' tall, do not graze when first killing frost is likely. I have never had bloat problem with any of these forages. Cattle can bloat on almost anything. Niebor lost 6 cows to bloat on cereal rye one spring. I also plant some pearl millet. In my experience not the quanity of forage of above mentioned sorghum-sudan hybrids. Millet has the advantage of no chance of prussic acid poisoning. I also find pearl to be very day lenght sensitive. If I hay or graze in late August, regrowth will only be a foot or so and then shoot a seed head, growth done. Not too late to plant either pearl or hybrids.


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## trbizwiz

I did not know about regrazing under 2 inches. I would never regraze that soon anyway, but interesting info anyway. I may try a strip of pearl and a strip of sudan see what works best. I would guess if I cut the sudan to 1.5 inches with a mower in early October we would be fine on the frost issue. It wont regrow that late would it? We usually dont get into killing fromss until mid to late october here. sometimes Novemeber.


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## bruce2288

That is 2 feet. haying is not a problem, prussic acid is unstable by the time the hay is dried the prussic acid has become some other harmless compound. The same with grazing it it safe to graze about 10 days after killing frost. If you plant now you will be cutting for hay long before Oct. probably August-Sept. Once it heads growth will stop. The best quality hay is actually at the boot stage. The large stems make hay drying a longer term process. I often have to leave for a week at least. With sudan you will likely to get two cuttings if you have adequate moisture and sun.

If you are planting for hay, I would suggest buying BMR seed( brown mid rib) It makes much more palatible hay.


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## trbizwiz

I do not put up hay. I graze only. I am on about a 28 day rotation. So I graze every 28 days except the very dry time and the very cold time.


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## Gabriel

Here's an article on year 'round grass finishing.


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## trbizwiz

Yes I am a big fan ot the SGF, as well as a 4 year subscriber. That article sounds familiar. THe only problem I see with it is it doesnt rain here in August. HE mentioned south east Kansas. that is about 50 miles away. Rain is few and far between in august most years. SO planting anything in august is just in hoping for rain to germinate.. Usually the soil is too dry to do much good either. I will give it a try though. Ill plant my rye grass in August and my grains in early september. Rains usually start up after laborday weekend. Not last year, but usually.


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## ArmyDoc

trbizwiz said:


> ... If it doesnt I'll buy a homozygus black angus bull to breed to my red poll cows and heifers and raise some nice little feeders. Not sure what color they will be because I think the polls are homozygus red...


If the black is homozygous, the calves will all be black, since black is dominant. If you have a heterozygous black (red moma, black daddy or vice-versa) then the offspring would be roughly 50/50 black or red.


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## trbizwiz

Cool.


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## bruce2288

trbizwiz As you are planting annuals for grazing, you might consider putting some turnips in with the sudan or millet or seeding some in Aug-Sept. They will growth extremely well in the cool fall weather and provide great feed.


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## trbizwiz

Yes I did turnips last year. My cows love the tops and if Ipick them they will eat the bulb, but they wont eat the bulb if they pick them. 
I called MFA yesterday and ordered some seed. Sudan is $17 for 50#'s and pearl millet is $38 for 50#'s. I ordered a bag of each, just to try them out. Ill probably plant vetch, oats, peas, clovers, triticale, and brassicas this fall august or september. My two dairy steers will be on their finish run next spring, so I want to go into winter growing. I will either process next may or October depending on condition. I think annuals will play a big role in a good quality finish. weather will too. If the dairy steers finish well, Iknow my gorgeous red polls will. THey are some eating adn growing machines. When they arent eating or playing they are nursing. Nice little bulls, soon to be steers.


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## noeskimo

I have been eavesdropping on this site for some time now, wow!I fantasize about owning green grass.Seriously, I live in West Texas,less than an inch of rain since Oct 3, and we were dry then.Temps up in the 100s since April.We live in an area of the state where there is very few wells, just no water, so any thing we do is with very expensive city water so irrigation is out.I plan on improving using native grasses(curly mesquite crow's foot,etc)since they are better adapted to this area.I know that plans of pasture improvement must be put on hold for now, but what I need to know is what can I do protect not permanently destroy what I have? I'm removing Mesquite shrubs, leaving some large Mesquite trees and digging up a lot of Yucca.Some little, imported, wasps are eating away the Salt Cedar.What else can I do? Currently only 1 horse and 10 goats are on 160 acres, divided into 3 pastures.No $$ now to expand fencing until winter. We're broke anyway since we have been buying hay since last November, not exactly in our plans.Any ideas?--besides prayer?Thanks


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## agmantoo

noeskimo

You realize, I believe, that you have to learn to live with what you have and can produce where you choose to make your farm/ranch. I had poor red clay soil and rolling hills along with gullies and eroded land that comprised a worn out farm with a small field here and another there. Over time and continuing even today I have tried to recognize how to make the farm profitable. Initially I just replicated what everyone else was doing and I made the same gains (very little if any profit while working hard as best I can determine). I knew that I had to do something(s) differently if I was going to change the situation. Hay and the associated expenses were where the bulk of the sale barn income was going so this is what I addressed. I had already realized that I could carry the herd past Christmas on the grass I was producing so I set out to see how far into Winter I could go without hay. Soon with the herd size I had at that time I had dropped my dependence on hay from 300 plus round bales to 90. My next challenge was to do away with the 90 bales requirement. I altered the manner I was doing a version of rotational grazing and had success with no hay needed for the entire Winter. I was on my way. I addressed the remaining expenses I was incurring and when fertilizer went up I decided to cease to buy commercial fertilizer. I did this against the opinions and recommendations of the "professionals". This worked also. Over time it has been amazing what many think is essential but can be eliminated. Each elimination let the cattle sales income become mine instead of passing it along. From that income I have improved the farm and increased the carrying capacity, mostly by purchasing used machinery. I gave the insight above to prompt you to start thinking what you can do to accomplish the changes and the goals you have. Neither of us can make it rain but we can conserve moisture and can get animals that can tolerate dry conditions and we can plant seeds that produce plants with low moisture requirements. I bet you have not seen Teff. Years back when folks went West they did not know how or have the equipment to work areas that are very productive today. You are going to have to do the research and some trials on your place. Cattle coming from many parts of the world can and do tolerate heat and survive on what is consideration marginal forage. These are the type of animals you need to adapt to YOUR place, not to the neighbors place. Along the way you need to realize that you need cows that give adequate milk but not excessive milk so they can stay in condition and rebreed readily. Instead of having a calve that weans at 700 lbs and makes no profit you possibly need a calf that weans at 550 lbs and puts money in you pocket. Hypothetically, if your place can carry 8 each 1400 lbs cow/calf pairs per 20 acres now maybe you need to have 11 or 12 1000 lb cows. Instead of a maximum of 8 calves to market you could have 11 or 12. 11 or 12 good 550 lb calves off pasture will bring more net income than 8 @ 700 lbs that had to be supplement fed. Am I making sense?

An example of lemon to lemonade follows.
I bought a piece of "trash" land from a neighbor for cheap. I have been improving it for several years as time permits. The long narrow strip could not be driven over without going on adjacent property by tractor due to a ravine that erosion had created near the middle of the property. The marginal quality trees were removed and I started improving the land for pasture when I first bought the property. In the first pic I have filled in the bottom of the lower portion of the wash from about 2 feet to 6 feet front to back. The very back portion shown in the 2nd pic had near vertical sides and a soggy base. I converted this to a small pond for the cattle to drink from.


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## SCRancher

Man I wish I had a trachoe - I have some marsh area I would love to dig out into a pond and use the soil from it to raise the level of the land in other places.


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## Gabriel

noeskimo, I moved from central TX to TN late last year, so I know of what you speak. The only thing I could do in the situation I was in, was to plant annuals. With careful timing of the planting it worked OK. I couldn't do much with managing the grazing habits due to a managerial conflict, so can't say for sure how much better it might have been. It was constantly overgrazed and changing that would have been the best factor to improve, imo. But please, let us know how it goes, I'm interested in following your progress.


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## trbizwiz

Well I picked up 50# of pearl Millet and 50# of sudan grass this afternoon. I am going to plant half the pearl millet adn 1/4th of the sudan. As those are the management areas I have to work with. I want to see how it does and how th ecows do on it. Then chose one to go with for next year. Sudan has the edge right now because it is half the cost and is supposed to be more grazier friendly as far as regrowth after grazing. But we will see.


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## bruce2288

trbizwiz, Your cows will learn to eat the turnip out of the ground, as with all new feed scources it is a learning process. Here about the only time one could get good finish quality pasture would be mid-Aprril to mid June and maybe Sept. unless annuals were utilized.


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## trbizwiz

Yes I believe annuals are integral to forage finishing beef. Nothing great is free. But even planting annuals and spreading litter every three years has to be more affordable than grain.


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## bruce2288

Have you researched Eastern Gama grass? If I remember correctly very good quality, but needs high rainfall and good fertility. the high rainfall disqualified it for me.


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## trbizwiz

I generally have high spring and fall rainfall but little to no summer rainfall. Last year no fall rainfall either sobmy winter annuals did poorly. I don't think eastern game grass would make it past July here.


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## SCRancher

3 pictures of where the cows are headed next. Grass is at least 4 feet if not closer to 5 feet high. While I think its Johnson Grass I am not sure so if you think you know speak up! Pictures taken Saturday June 12.


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## Allen W

I think your right. Pull or dig some up and see if it has rhizomes. If it is johnson grass you can eat it out in 3 to 4 years by keeping it ate off to less then 4 inches if you want to get rid of it.


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## Gabriel

Looks like plenty of grazing. Have you been over that before, and if so, how does it look after it's grazed? Seems like all the taller sections I have are sparse once they're grazed down, which means they don't recover as well.


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## SCRancher

I grazed this area for the first time starting in January and lasting through Feburary, cattle have not been in this area since the 2nd week of March.

Depending on how well the area holds up I plan on grazing this 40 acres till the end of August then letting it recover - stockpiling it for winter again.

I don't know that I want to get rid of it... I have not thought that far ahead yet. In the spring this area in the past has been too wet to get into so I'm not sure what if anything I can do with it yet.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

That is a really good stand of Johnson grass. I do not have concentrations of Johnson grass to match yours but I do have some. You are aware there are some issues feeding it. I have not knowingly experienced any problems with my herd when feeding it but you do need to be careful. Here is an article
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/toxic/plant43.htm. Just be careful and do not let your animals tank up on an empty stomach.


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## SCRancher

Thanks for the article Agmantoo - I have read a lot of that before but when grazing something potentially toxic it does not hurt to read it again.

I will take your advice however and make sure I turn them into it AFTER they have done their morning grazing so they will not be hungry when they hit it.

Hopefully they will find plenty of other things to eat as well - there are cattails, various grasses, bushes, trees, weeds, and vines a-plenty in the area. Not sure they will eat cattails...

I am thinking this would be a great area to overseed with Rye Grass at the end of August what do you all think? The area with the Johnson grass had a very heavy cover of dead grass from the stand last year that didn't get eaten so pretty much nothing grew in this area for them to eat during the winter - they had plenty though with all the rest I mentioned. I figure if I overseed with rye grass this will be an ideal area during the winter.


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## RosewoodfarmVA

Johnson grass differs from cool-season grasses such as fescue and orchardgrass in that the first frost completely kills the above-ground forage. It becomes unpalatable and so provides no winter grazing whatsoever regardless of how much forage there is. Cows absolutely will not touch it after it's been killed back for a few weeks, as opposed to fescue or orchard which can be grazed anytime throughout winter. Ideally you would graze it down in the weeks prior to a expected frost so there will not be much residue that will have to be mowed or allowed to fall down (blocking good stand growth in spring). With the thick established root systems I don't know if you'll have much luck getting annuals to interseed. Heavy grazing may open up the sod enough to allow seed germination... but if you seed before frost you will have a lot of competition with the regrowth. Johnson grass does provide good grazing through summer despite heat, and has quicker regrowth rates than most other plants due to its extensive roots. It also looks like it's in a low/wet place which also is a benefit for summer growth. Maybe maximizing summer growth without regard for winter grazing would benefit your operation more, as it would allow you to take grazing pressure off of your other pastures when the 'summer slump' is occuring for the cool season grasses?


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## bigbluegrass

trbizwiz said:


> I generally have high spring and fall rainfall but little to no summer rainfall. Last year no fall rainfall either sobmy winter annuals did poorly. I don't think eastern game grass would make it past July here.


Eastern Gama, if allowed to get established, should easily make it through a typical summer in the midwest. The hot and dry is when the native warm season grasses really shine. From what I have read, they have roots up to 5 feet deep. Last summer we were much hotter and dryer than normal and the only grasses that were still green and growing (in some cases really growing) were the native warm season grasses. One farmer, just down the road from me, had a 5 acre or so field which is mostly switchgrass. He cut hay twice on it after most everyone else was feeding hay. I have to admit I called a NWSG seed company after that and placed an order just to play with some. I am hoping to get some established on my property just for the hot and dry times. I will have a hard time planting Eastern Gama, since it is best done with a corn planter and my place is all hills and rocks. Since I have started rotational grazing, I have noticed an increase in switchgrass and other native grasses. I am pretty excited about that. I would love to see some Eastern Gama grass just show up out there. Maybe wishful thinking.


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## agmantoo

bigbluegrass

Do not give up on the possibility of other desirable grasses "showing up". I have never knowingly planted orchard grass yet I am slowly getting more orchard grass than I want. I also have volunteer timothy. Here is a pic of some of the orchard grass


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## lamoncha lover

agmantoo
I need help.
What can I do with a pasture being overrun with sericia lespedeza. I have finally gotten it identified and I want it gone. Have read how it is almost impossible to get under control. 
Can you give me some details? My pasture is just about worthless as is for the horses


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## agmantoo

lamoncha lover

I need information in order to aid in making decisions. How many and what size are the horses? How many acres are in pasture? Do the horses have full time access to the pasture? When have you last had a soil sample taken of the pasture? What nutrients did the soil test indicate you needed? Did you apply those nutrients? What was the PH? If lower than 6.2 did you apply lime? How much lime and what was the date? Are you willing to allocate a grazing period to the horses? If so, do you have a location where the horses can "lounge"? Do you have a tractor and a rotary "bush hog" cutter? What forage would you prefer to grow? Do you have a budget for the pasture renovation? Do you bale the pasture land? Give me the answers to these questions and some time and I will make a recommendation. Meanwhile do not let the sericea go to seed by mowing/cutting it.


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## lamoncha lover

How many and what size are the horses? 
I have 3 horses on about 5 or maybe 6 acres They are regular sized 900-1000 pounds
Do the horses have full time access to the pasture? 
The pasture is set up in 3 about equal paddocks plus one holding/sacrifice area. I do rest 2 paddocks while using 1, but this year so little grass I rest one and use 2. 
I have pulled the horses off as it is riding season and the horses are here at my house. The land is a good 25 miles from me.
When have you last had a soil sample taken of the pasture? 
We have not yet gotten a soil sample. I know that is the first step and will do my best to get there this weekend and get one. We did have one paddock limed about 2 years ago. We have owned 2 of the fields for 5 years and the other for 3yrs.and had horses on it all that time
Are you willing to allocate a grazing period to the horses? If so, do you have a location where the horses can "lounge"?
Yes..the pasture is so low yielding of any grass right now, other then an excersize area it is worthless. I have my place at home and also the sacrifice area at the land to hold horses
Do you have a tractor and a rotary "bush hog" cutter? 
We have a small kabota tractor and a bush hog and a disc and box blade.. A few weeks ago I went to mow the fields and the thing would not start. Hubby is working very long hours and many days in a row but I am hoping he can get it started for me this weekend It needs mowing for sure.
I am considering taking an old water holder..think 250 gallons..the plastic kind with the metal frame around it and trying to hook a hose to it so that I can super spray the fields. There is going to be no spot spraying and I need to come up with something that will work to poison 6 acres. Thought maybe I could put it in back of truck and drive over the pastures.Any thoughts?
What forage would you prefer to grow? 
Pasture for the horses..maybe fescue, orchard grass and white clover mix? Whatever I can get the most feed out of.
Do you have a budget for the pasture renovation? 
We do not have a lot of cash to put in but knowing it is worthless as it is I will try to scrape what we need..as economically as possible
Do you bale the pasture land? no. We have in the past but since we do not have the equipment it has worked better to just buy hay. The pastures were mowed a lot last year..maybe 3 or 4 times as I was staying out there. Now we are back in town and its hard to get out there as often as needed.
__________________


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## agmantoo

lamoncha lover
I can help get the sericea under control but cannot totally eliminate it. Sericea seed can live a long time in the ground and when conditions are right it will still germinate. You do have some issues with the location being distant and the number of grazing areas. Forage cannot be established and grazed simultaneously. The forage once germinated and growing will still require time to build a root system. Once this is overcome you still do not have an arrangement for the horses and the 3 different grazing areas that will allow for the recovery time necessary. As you are well aware horses are hard on pastures, they can an will eat the forage to a point the forage is stressed. Horse hoof action and habits of pawing are also detrimental. With the 3 horses and 5.5 to 6 acres plus your not being near the animals to allocate the grazing period and then to move the animals to a sacrificial paddock is IMO more than the acreage can tolerate. This situation is what allowed the sericea to get a foot hold. As the grasses that had been present were stressed and became sparse more sunlight reached the sericea seed and contributed to the sericea germinating. There simply was less cover to smother or to hold back the sericea. Sericea is well known to flourish under conditions that other plants cannot tolerate and that is what you have witnessed.
If you want to put the sericea under control and to reestablish grasses and clovers we can do that without the horses on the property. If the horses are reintroduced at a later date under the same setup, the situation will repeat itself.


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## lamoncha lover

Well..
I am totally hoping that I will be there within a years time. Cannot say for sure though.
Once I am there it will be easier to control grazing.
I would like to establish a good pasture..It is of no calue the way it is. Eiother way..I will behaying. Mise well try and set it up so eventually I will have grass. 
thanks


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## agmantoo

lamoncha lover
If we are going to tackle the sericea then getting the tractor going ASAP is necessary. You need to be inquiring as to where you can purchase Remedy Ultra herbicide and a surfactant/crop oil.
Is your husband mechanically inclined and would he be able and willing to make a small modification to the bushhog?


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## CedarMoore

Which would you recommend? The PasturePro or the newly designed PowerFex G2 posts. I have seen comments on both in this thread. What depth do you recommend? I will be using the posts for a single high tensile wire for lanes. So should I buy 5 1/2' post? The wire height needs to be around 40". I know I will need pilot holes. Can you drive a round 1" metal rod, pull up with a t-post puller, and drive the post with a post driver? 

I currently use rotational grazing on 8 paddocks but would like to move to an intensive type system. Thanks for any replies


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## trbizwiz

I have the older powerflex posts and I needed no pilot hole. I understand the new ones are the same, though they are hollow allowing a t post driver with I pilot built in. 

I dont know about the new powerflex posts because I have not used them. But I can tell you I have put the old style post through their paces and they take a beating while still continuing to perform. Also mine are closing on 3 years old and still look brand new less a little bird crap for decoration. They are super easy to drill and attach wire also. I know nothing about the pasture pro posts. i assume if they are similar they would be great. But I would not consider any other type of post for line posts than the composite I am a big big fan. 

I live near enough to seymore Mo to pick up an order when I need stuff. But that being said they often offer free shipping so even if you have to order still a good deal.
I also like that Powerflex fence really supports graziers. they are a sponcer of the stockman grass farmer. they often put on customer appreciation days and have seminars for education. I am a firm believer in supporting those whom support you. THe G2's have been out for about a year now so surely you could get a review. Though I would doubt powerflex would dump a good design unless they found a superior one.


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## SCRancher

SCRancher said:


>


After about 5 days of them in the area.


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## lamoncha lover

agmantoo
Hubby is off this weekend and we will be going to try and get the tractor running. He is pretty good mechanically and yes we would be willing to do a modification to the mower.
IF we get it going should we bush hog this weekend?
I will check into the remedy and the crop oil you mentioned.
thanks


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## agmantoo

lamoncha lover

Examine the sericea closely for the lowest position on the largest stemmed plant where seed pods exist. Mow the plants off below this level. Do not work the soil. Doing so will be the same as planting the seed.


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## lamoncha lover

Relegate Herbicide 1 Gallon (Same as Remedy Ultra Herbicide)
$75.95
Same active ingredient as Relegate Ultra - Why pay more? 60% Triclopyr (Relegate Ultra & Garlon 4 are 61% Triclopyr)
Is this ok agmantoo?


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## agmantoo

lamoncha lover
It is the active ingredient we are after so it should work. Realize if it is being shipped you need to compare the "landed" price of both herbicides. We still want the surfactant also. I prefer Hook surfactant but doubt if it is available as few places carry it.
http://hookadjuvant.com/pdf/CL 37 Letterhead Hook A Wetter Surfactant that Carries a Big Stick.pdf


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## lamoncha lover

agmantoo..Thanks!


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## gwithrow

ok, so we overdid it with the clover seed last winter...this spring the crimson clover was spectacular....the cows loved it, though it might have been a bit much for them.....it has gone to seed, I am sure it will be back....now there is a lot of the white clover, which we also generously sowed.....

but the grasses in the clover area are not doing as well as they should....so how do we get a better balance of different forages....??....when we have hot,dry weather the clover slows way up, but then the ground is too exposed....

I can see that in other pastures we will be more judicious in our overseeding of the clover....it is pretty and all, but I am thinking we need more variety...

any suggestions as to what to overseed with come fall or now for that matter would be appreciated


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## agmantoo

Hi

It is hot and you have been very dry from what I have seen on the weather stations. That combination has negatively impacted the grasses as they are cool season and like wet. Come Sept, after rain, be prepared to plant a mixture of 15 lbs of annual ryegrass (marshall) and 10 to 12 lbs of fescue (ky31). Since the existing plants will be short, IMO, try to no till drill if possible. 

If you want to plant something now for feed consider 20 lbs/acre of pearl millet. Again no till drill into the existing heavily grazed remaining plants that are in the pasture. You do not want a full stand of the millet as it will shade the existing plants. There will be no bloat risks with the millet.

How are the persimmon sprouts?


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## lamoncha lover

agmantoo
just wanted to clartify
we do as suggested with the herbicide then go back over with the "Hook"
Is it possible to do it all at once...add the hook with the other? Would save a ton of time and gas if we didn't have to make 2 passes. Of course we want the best bang for our buck too so whatever you advise.


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## agmantoo

Good that you posted. Here is the procedure. You are to use 1 1/2 pints of the herbicide per acre. You are to use 20 gallons of water per acre as the carrier for the herbicide. The surfactant, Hook, is added to the herbicide and water mix to enhance the herbicide/water mix. With all 3 items put in the tank in this order....water, herbicide, surfactant. With the 3 items in the tank and mixed then you are ready to apply. When calibrating the applicator just use water until you are satisfied that you are applying as near to 20 gallons per acre as accurately as possible. What you are wanting to achieve is getting the 1 1/2 pints of herbicide per acre, no more or no less, on the sericea. If when setting the applicator and you find that you are getting a little more or a little less water per acre than desirable just accept that but mix the herbicide to still achieve the 1 1/2 pints /acre at the rate the applicator is putting out the water. As the sericea matures, what escapes this initial application of herbicide may need a different treatment. Your timing is important as this is the ideal time for the above treatment.


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## lamoncha lover

gotcha
guess we got a little confused. Thanks for clarifying. 
will get on it ASAP. If we can only get the tractor going, the other stuff should be the easier stuff. Hope the window to apply has a little flexibility. Husband will be working the next 14 days. 
This stuff is not for the busy, or the poor or the city slicker ..and we are all 3:>)
thanks again! lori


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## trbizwiz

I dont know about your herbicide, but with glyphosate the plant needs to be sprayed and left alone for the spray to work then after it is killed you may cut or plow.


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## gwithrow

Agman, is there a small no till drill?now that the pastures are all divided it would be troublesome to have my older neighbor, the only person I know with this equipment, to drill my fall seeds...so is there a smaller piece of machinery that will do this....we have been broadcasting seed as that is what we can do easily, but I can see how useful it would be to be able to get the seed in the ground...

it has been dry here,but we have had showers all along....grass is still green...but we need real rain and soon if we are to keep it all going...rotating the cows is the only way to manage and by next year we may have the right balance of cows and size of paddocks...meanwhile we want to keep getting the seed we need out there....

so if anyone knows of a small drill, or some other alternate item it would be great to hear about it....


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## SCRancher

In my state each county FSA agency has a no-till drill you can rent - very reasonable rates too.

You may want to check into that. The drills my county has are both 9 foot which is very manageable.


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## agmantoo

gwithrow,

I managed to locate a 3 point hitch version of a Tye similar to these
http://www.tractorhouse.com/list/li...&DisplayExtraTHOSpecs=1&SO=2&btnSearch=Search


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## trbizwiz

My county has the drills at the USDA office. However they are somewhat large and require 80 HP minimum tractor. I bought a dew drop drill. It is very small but works geat for planting 5 to 10 acres. It can be pulled behind a 4 wheeler or lawnmower. I posted a youtube video of it. It has a native seed box and a legume box. They are kinda pricey I paid around $6500. Some areas have these smaller drills to rent. Ducks unlimited bought several for its memebers too. 
Another drill company Greenscape advertises in the stockman grass farmer. they are out of Rocky Mount NC. 252-442-0700. If memory serves they are kinda pricey too. 
Your best bet would be to check with your county for renting one. I did not want to buy a big tractor (well could not afford) and I already had an Heavy Duty commercial mower so the small drill was the cheapest way for me.
I will be buying a big tractor in the future. I will buy one big enough to rent the big drills. But i need to eliminate other debt and refine my grazing skills first. I aquired access to 31 additional acres this year, so I am concentrating on building a herd now. Probably after I own that land Ill upgrade to a nice big tractor. For now Ill up as high a density of cattle on as small a paddock as I can to eat and trample, then I graze until where I started is ideal to return to, and Ill stock pile what I dont graze for inclimate weather (hot and dry or cold). This will keep my grazing size very fliud depending on herd size and their appetite. But it should minimize the need for clipping until I can afford the equipment to do it. This is definitely not the ideal way to do it. Stockpiled forage that goes to seed has much lower nutritional value. But my herd did nicely last year on similarly stockpiled forage. perhaps as I eliminate debt Ill consider a mid size tractor to handle clipping. But for now I have to tell my self no big purchases other than heiffers (which I save for and pay cash) until I am debt free. Otherwise I will never be debt free.


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## trbizwiz

here is a link to one of my videos of the deew drop drill. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk568BTkTvg[/ame]


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## godsgapeach

agmantoo said:


> We were fortunate in regard to the tornado that came through. No one in my vacinity was killed. There was some major property damage, roofs blown off and many trees down. I still have a half dozen or so trees on the perimeter fence. We managed to get some major wind the night that you folks had the tornadoes.
> 
> Are you getting enough moisture the keep the pastures growing? Kind of dry here.


Hey, again all. I dropped off the radar again. Things have been crazy here, but all is looking up now.

Agman, in answer to your question yes, we've been PARCHED here. Our yard hasn't been mowed since the very end of April if that tells you anything. Last week I had to turn the cows onto the end of the pasture that isn't set up for rotation because it was so dry. Nothing was regrowing. But if I'd had things set up in the rest of the pasture, we'd still be rotating--just no new growth. Daddy has fed some hay to the other 2 herds.

But thankfully we had a nice soaking rain last night--7/10 inch here--and we've had almost 1/2 inch in the last week in small showers here and there. It's already beginning to recover. 

About 3 weeks ago we had more high winds with a storm that came through--not even a tenth of an inch of rain--and we had a tree in the pasture blown onto a power line that then caught on fire. Thankfully no major damages and no animals injured.

I'm about to start digging for the waterlines in the next week. And when that project is done, I'm going to go back to putting up high tensile in the part of the pasture the cows are now roaming on.

Hope everyone's well. And I also hope to stay more informed. I changed my email address so I can receive notifications of new posts--of course it's not an account I check regularly, but my regular address won't receive anything. Go figure. 
Take care!


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## godsgapeach

And Agman, I haven't seen you mention it in the backlog of posts I just read...

Are you still pleased with the RR crabgrass you broadcast? Has it reseeded as advertised and held up with the dry weather? 

It's still on my list...


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## gwithrow

in one of the pastures we are having a terrible time with deer...every morning they have torn up one or more temporary lines...insulators popped off and or pigtail posts popped out....I do not have enough life to walk every line everyday...the cows know the routine and seem less bothered but it is a problem we need to solve...and I would appreciate all suggestions to fix this...

also apparently last night when they took out part of the line, the fence grounded out...the parmak 12 solar charger is not doing a darn thing now....barely clicking and not putting out much at all....we have repaired all problems and still nothing...for tonight I turned it off, told the cows to stay put and came home...will resume the problem solving in the AM....

the permanent perimeter fence is barbed wire so no one can get out to the road, but we need to get back up and online.....the deer are not going to win...all ideas are welcome....thanks..


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

Take the top of the metal portion of the charger off. The solar panel and the base it is attached to will come off with the top of the charger box. Look to see if the wires are still all connected. I would think that the wire are OK and the battery is weak. Do you have a volt ohm meter to be able to check the voltage of the battery? It sounds as if the battery is not charged. Do you have a very small battery charger like the Battery Tender [ame]http://www.google.com/search?q=battery+tender&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a[/ame] that is so popular? Do not try to charge the battery with a car charger. It needs to be charged with a trickle charger only.


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

Regarding the RR Crabgrass. It was slow to take hold but it is now established where I initially broadcast the seed. The RR crabgrass seems to be larger than the old crabgrass that is on the place. The seeds are being dispersed in the cattle manure and the plants are spreading over a much larger area.
I had an out-of-state visitor today and I have to admit I was somewhat embarrassed at how the pastures look. The lack of rain is beginning to impact all the weeds as well as the planted forages. I dare not clip what exists anymore as it could be that I need the trash to feed if the drought persists.


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## gwithrow

ok will work on charger today....but what about the deer, is there any way to get them to stay off the fence...we have hunters for the hunting season, and they will have the 'final solution,' but what about now?


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## Gabriel

gwithrow said:


> ok will work on charger today....but what about the deer, is there any way to get them to stay off the fence...we have hunters for the hunting season, and they will have the 'final solution,' but what about now?


How many strands are you running, just one? What height? Is it wire or poly-twine? Have you done anything to make it more visible, such as putting strips of foil on it?


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## gwithrow

first of all in the morning daylight we discovered the problem.....a strand of electric wire wound up with the barbed wire fence....the electric is held away from the fence with an extended insulator, but I suspect our deer friends got a foot caught as they sailed over it, and it got caught on the barbs....so that is solved, thankfully.....now to the deer...charger is now back in the green zone....

it is wire, not polywire as these are our semi-permanent paddocks for rotational grazing,.....the posts are a mixture of pigtails and rebar posts and a few fiberglass ones.....we have orange flags on the wire....the cows all know where it is, and are great about not bothering it....the donkeys as well.....I will put aluminum foil if that is recommended here....oh and these interier fences are all single strand, about 30 inches high....where we live is surrounded by wilderness...well sort of wilderness....people live near the roads here and there, and back behind is pretty rugged for miles around...we have a lot of wildlife all over....we also have hunters during the hunting season....but I don't think they put a dent in the deer population....I just need them to stay in their sector, the woods, and leave my fences alone......


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## gwithrow

I also need recommendations for the best t-post insulators...and for one that will clip on a pigtail post...regular rod insulators won't work since they can't slide over the pigtail or the foot area...thanks


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## godsgapeach

agmantoo said:


> godsgapeach
> 
> Regarding the RR Crabgrass. It was slow to take hold but it is now established where I initially broadcast the seed. The RR crabgrass seems to be larger than the old crabgrass that is on the place. The seeds are being dispersed in the cattle manure and the plants are spreading over a much larger area.
> I had an out-of-state visitor today and I have to admit I was somewhat embarrassed at how the pastures look. The lack of rain is beginning to impact all the weeds as well as the planted forages. I dare not clip what exists anymore as it could be that I need the trash to feed if the drought persists.


I'm with you! It does look horrible here, too. Turning my herd back out was NOT my plan, but desperate times... and I'm just thankful I had something to turn them out on! I'm hoping that the little bit of rain we got Sunday will help the forage gain a foothold. 

Praying for rain for those who need it!

Hope you and the Mrs. are well!


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## PACrofter

gwithrow said:


> I also need recommendations for the best t-post insulators...and for one that will clip on a pigtail post...regular rod insulators won't work since they can't slide over the pigtail or the foot area...thanks


Gwithrow - These rod insulators actually do slide over the top of a pigtail post:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/electr...-rod-post-insulator-yellow-pack-of-25-3600443

I didn't think they would work but it turns out you can actually make them slip over the top part of a pigtail post. They work beautifully for us; I'm not sure they're the *best*, but they're good enough for what we need them to do (which is to keep two strands of wire on the pigtail post below the pigtail).


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## main_man

Agmantoo,

Great post this one, I can only echo others thanks for sharing your experiences and time. A quick question I have is how do you go about handling the cattle - esp when wanting to seperate the young stock in order to send to the sale barn. Do you use or have mobile handling facitlities??.


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## agmantoo

main_man

My cattle are very manageable in that I can call them and they will respond by following me provided they have a stomach full of forage. I have a lane that leads to a staging area that consists of two small paddocks with a woven wire separating the areas. The woven wire is installed diagonally creating a "funnel" at each end. Each end of this partition fence has a gate. I let the cattle graze the first paddock some then I open the gate to the 2nd paddock. The cattle move through the gate onto the fresh paddock and I close the gate. I leave them there to graze some but there is no water in the paddock. About the time I need to sort the cattle I open the gate on the other end of the diagonal fence that leads to water and toward the first paddock but this gate diverts the cattle into a large holding pen made from recycled chain link fence. This pen can hold the entire herd. The far end of the holding pen has a narrow lane that again leads toward the first paddock but at the last instance turns the opposite direction into the sorting pen. From the holding pen I drive 10 to 14 animals at a time down the lane to the sorting pen. The sorting pen, my design, is more or less a corral made from recycled guard rail. There I sort from the small manageable group. Those animals being shipped are penned and the others animals are let out into the first paddock. I repeat this effort until the entire herd has passed through the process. It takes me about 2 hours to sort. I hire the transport for the market animals. The sale barn carries insurance from my farm to the sale barn. The trailer owner/driver helps load the trailer so with his help I can finish the task. Otherwise, this is a one person operation.


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## trbizwiz

I have been very blessed this week. Some friends have offered to buy my home. It has been a great hpome for the last 5 years. It is beautiful, and very comfortable for my family. However, 5 years or so ago when I started building it I sorta lost my mind. I went over board and spent too much. The mortgage has been overwhelming the last few years. I have been tring to start a farm on cash alone. It has been slow going. In selling my home I have made an offer to the owner fo the land I am currently borrowing to purchase it. I expect to hear this week. It is 28 or possibly 30 acres just depending on some deed issues. It connects to 180 acres i hope to buy in 3 to 5 years if all goes well. THe 180 acres is owned by folks that live 3 hours away. They inherited it from family and thye lease the land currently. they are nearing retirement age and do not wish to retire to the country. They indicated selling that land may be a part of their retirement plans. SO who knows.
On with my question. THis is mostly to Agmantoo. I am trying to figure out how to lay this out the most effeciently. 









THe area in yellow marked 3.5 is the perspective land. the area in red (red is very faint it is marked 3.3) and yellow is my current property. The plan is to buy the 28 acres 3 of which is the small area just west of my current property. I will trade the 3 acre portion to my buyers for 3 acres off the east end of my current property. I have spoken with my buyers and they are ok with this. THey have no interest in farming and would only want to remove the fencing anyway. I will also have to remove the fencing because the layout is wrong especially when you take into consideration how the other 25 acres will need to be laid out. As for housing we are planning to build a barndominium. Hopefully we will get this all done with a very small mortgage which we can pay off in under 2 years. Though i will have to stock up on cattle this fall adn I will need a ranger or gator to manage everything so I will have soome other costs that could push paying off the note for 3 years. In any case I should be debt free by 40 so that has been a big goal of mine, in order to retire from town by 55. Or sooner if all works out.
As a side note, I do have permission from th eland owner to use the 28 acres. Even after I buy the land I will still have permission to use the land on the 5 acre plott in the middle marked 3.1,. So I figured I will fence around the perimiter of 3.1, but I will put poly gates on the north and south border of the property so I can graze right through it with out having to go around. The only reason I cna t buy the 2 acres off the back is that land has a loan adn the owner doesnt thing the bank will let him sell off the 2 acres.

I will see if I can get you some measurements on this property.


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## agmantoo

trbizwiz

I am unable to follow your plans to the extent that I need. Could you include a perimeter of the entire acreage that you will be having once the sell occurs and the trade of acreage? Mark individual acres of any current and future paddocks. Also include where you intend to build and where water is available if you plan on using existing streams or wells. Thanks


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## trbizwiz

I don't know how to draw on that map. If anyone has a suggestion let me know. However perhaps I can describe it. The top of the picture is north. The northern border is 1315 feet. The eastern border is 1271 feet. The southern border is 671 feet which included half of my original lot. The western border of that section from north to south is 705 feet. The far western border is 702 feet. From the south end if the far western border to the northern end is 648 feet. The layout is an L. Other than the pond there is no water currently. We will be building in the north west corner and a well and septic will go in there. I can run water lines and fence anywhere I need to. The perimeter is barbed wire. I plan to remove that and replace it with 5 wire ht fence. I'll use the power flex posts. I think a lane to the pond and trees would be nice especially pally if it could connect to every paddock. Not sure how to ache e that though. 
If anyone knows how do draw on pictures let me know.


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## lamoncha lover

goshdarn tractor.......
guess my field will be a crappy weed making pasture for next year.
hiring a farmer to bush hog it monday. Thats the best we could do with a broken piece of poop tractor
How much could we expect to pay for a bigger tractor thaty will actually RUN?


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## trbizwiz

Well my land negotiations took a curve ball. They are wanting me to take the house and five too. I don't want to be spending valuable time on a remodel. Might be back to looking for land.


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## greengrow

When grazing stockpiled grass in the spring, how good is grass that dissarears under snow in December when it strats to re-appear in March or April?

No chance to follow the rest of you into a no hay winter, but I figure that I could graze longer, feed less.


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## agmantoo

greengrow
Numerous factors impact how good the grass is that disappears under the snow. Some grasses are better for stockpiling than others. I get the most mileage from fescue, the one with the endophyte issues. For example it is mid July and I am still grazing fescue which is a cool season grass. Most likely it will go dormant within a month however. Then come late August or early September it will reemerge with rain. With proper conditions, I expect a burst of growth on the established fescue and it is a time for newly seeded fescue here in western NC to exhibit its growth capability. As for the strengths of fescue as a grazing forage here is a site that gives the backup data to support my thoughts.
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/agr162.pdf
With any grazing program a "chain" of forages needs to be considered in order to provide the maximum amount of grazing throughout the year as this is the least cost means of feeding. For me, starting in Jan I will be feeding stockpiled fescue, sometimes snow covered. This will continue until early to mid March. At that time Fall sowed Marshall ryegrass will have some growth and that will slowly become the major forage followed by fescue. Come mid April the fescue will become the main feed along with the ryegrass. I nurse the fescue to keep it in the leaf stage by clipping. This clipping effort will continue until August. I have a few acres seeded in Red River crabgrass to aid in getting through this period of no growth by the other grasses. In August I clip to get rid of any weeds that could go to seed. Typically we will get frost before the clipped weeds can regrow to produce seed. September is time for me to reseed the annual ryegrass and to touch up areas that may need some fescue seed. As evidenced above you can see the "chain" of forages that link the months of the year together to create all year grazing for me. Even those that may have a "link" missing in the grazing chain should be able to extend the grazing periods with grasses adaptable to their location using rotational grazing techniques. There will be times that the rate of gain may suffer but that inefficiency will be offset by the periods, with tremendous growth of the forages, that will allow for compensatory gain. Personally I am unaware of any means to produce overall gains over time at a lower cost.


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## Looking4ewes

Any strategies on how to get through a drought period? I have about 1 week of grazing left and then I'm done until it starts to rain again. The only green thing in my pasture right now is the alfalfa. The clover is burnt, the grasses are nonexistent, and I can see bare cracked ground through it all. 

Things to consider to reduce purchased feed costs: I could wean the lambs early (10 weeks old) and put the ewes on a poorer quality hay, keeping the best for the growing lambs. The lambs have been on grass only, so I don't know how they will adjust to a grain portion. I can try to graze a wood lot with the open ewes and steers, though I've never done this before, so I don't know the food quality in it. I have a Jersey due to freshen next month that I need to consider. I also have a 18 month old ~800 lb. steer that I planned to butcher at the end of the season that I could put in the freezer now, but dk how he would taste given the grass he has been on.

A little background: I'm grazing 32 acres using a rotational system, usually daily moves. I have 50 ewes with 80 lambs, 15 open ewes, 3 rams, 2 steers, and 1 Jersey. This is my 3rd year farming, so I'm still learning as my flock grows.

Your thoughts are appreciated.


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## SCRancher

I would seriously consider the wood lot - it all depends on how mature it is and how much under story plants it has. I used my 10 year old clear cut to carry me through part of last winter and have used it again for almost a month so far this summer. How much woods are there and how mature is it?

I would NOT overgraze your existing pasture in a drought - better to feed them early IMO and leave enough plant material to gather dew when it's available and to rebound quicker when you finally do get rain. I made the mistake of overgrazing last year during a drought and then army worms came and ate the rest into dirt - I had a 40 acre dirt field at the end of September, I had started feeding hay at the end of august and except for the 6ish weeks in the wood lot in the dead of winter I fed the cattle till the end of February.

Weaning early is also a good thing doing exactly as you said giving the ewes poorer quality hay and the growing lambs the better quality hay or selling the lambs sooner.

18 month old steer is not too soon to butcher from what I have read here but I have no experience with it but I would consider that a very viable option - you could put him on 60 days of good quality hay and grain to fatten him up prior to butchering and that would get him some weight and change his composition - flavor.


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## SCRancher

Looking4ewes - here are a couple of pictures taken during last winter of my woods area. I snapped the first picture then turned 180 degrees and snapped the second picture huge difference.

Side of fence cattle could not get to:









Side of the fence cattle could get to:


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## bigbluegrass

Looking4ewes in a drought type situation, generally you have the option of buying feed or selling stock or a combination of those. The best approach is a combination of buying feed and selling stock. First reduce your herd size by culling all possible animals. Older ewes or ones that aren't producing as well. Young animals destined for slaughter. Wild animals. Ones that have been causing problems. You need to reduce the numbers of animals to minimize the amount of feed you will have to purchase. Next you need to purchase feed for what is left. Try to get it before the prices start to get high if possible. Buy enough to last at least a few month, maybe as much as it takes to get to spring. If the drought persists, you may need to sell more animals to make the feed you purchased last. Normally those who sell stock end up ahead of those who try to purchase feed and maintain the current herd size. If your drought area isn't too large, you may be able to travel a short distance and find some hay and grain without too much trouble at a reasonable price. Try to keep the animals confined and don't let them run over the whole place just because it looks like nothing is growing. That is the worst thing you can do. The grass will recover much faster once you get rain if the livestock has not trampled it into dust.

Last year we had a dry period for 5 months with little more than an inch of rain over that time. This spring, the ground recovered well if it was not overgrazed during the drought. During the drought, I confined the cows and fed hay on the poorest parts of the dry land. I have 10 cows and fed a bale every 3-4 days. The cows had an area of only about 20 feet by 20 feet. I put all the bales out in rows and then moved them from bale to bale (known as bale grazing). Today that is the best pasture I have. It was poor pasture up until this year.

I butchered a 16 month old steer as I was grazing the last grass I had and he tasted great and was very tender. I can't guarantee the same results, but it worked well for us. He was a little small. I know I wouldn't wait if you are going to just feed hay and no grain. You could probably finish him on grain and get a nice finish. It depends on how you want to finish him and what your goals are.

Good luck! You can't make the grass grow without rain. Just have to wait. I hope you get a nice 3 day soaker here soon.


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## trbizwiz

I would not butcher that steer right now if you are interested in quality and flavor. you always want to butcher on the gain. that guy is in no way on the gain right now. being on the loss will cause stress which can cause off flavors and lack for tenderness. If you want to finish on grass I would recomend high sugar grasses and limited legumes. It seems contrary as protein will help with gains, but legumes can cause off flavors. Alfalfa seems to be an exception form what I have read. 
If you do need to butcher right away, put him in a feed lot with quality grain and minerals and quality hay. make sure his diet is well balanced and his rumen stays full to prevent stress. also offer shade and cool water again to limit stress. Stress is your enemy when finishing. Also finishing is more of an art than a science. that is why the quality of beef can vary so much. You wont get it perfect the first time, but just pay attention and learn as much as you can.


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## trbizwiz

Also if there is any grown up pasture in your area ask about a temporary lease. It will be a pain to move your herd over there, but your pastures will appreciate the break. If they are burned up now and your soil is not overly healthy dont expect a great fall return. Cut it short and spread litter and lime if it is indicated by your soil test and you may get a good come back. be mindful of weeds though. fertilization will surely require some clipping management. a season of forage rest would be best if you can swing it.


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## Looking4ewes

Thanks for all the feedback. It started raining ydy and kept it up all night. Impressive pics regarding the woodlot. I'll try stringing some wire and see what happens. Selling breeding stock is not an option, as it would cost me double to replace the herd with today's prices. I have 3/4 of my projected winter feed needs already put up. I just need to get them through the next month or so.

As for the steer, he is not going to break me if I keep him for awhile. I can put him in the woodlot for the time being. 

Many thanks to you all!


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## agmantoo

Looking4ewes

Realizing your location I know that your grass will cease to grow before mine. However, with the rain and the cattle off the pasture you should get some growth yet this season. Put the cattle on a small area that you can sacrifice and feed some of the Winter feed now. If you will do that and let the pasture recover you should IMO have more grass to stockpile for the early part of Winter. In so doing you should not have to feed hay as early thus offsetting the Winter feed that you give the animal now.


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## godsgapeach

Hey, Agman. With your Ritchie waterers do you have the freeze protection on them? I'm just not sure I'll need it here. And if you do, what exactly is involved? The "heater"? The vertical pipe?
Thanks!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

No I do not have the heater option. I do have a homemade ground heat tube which is nothing more than about 2.5 feet of the corrugated plastic culvert material positioned vertically in a hole with the supply water line in the center of the hole. I have a concrete slab over the heat tube and the waterer is sitting on the slab and secured to the slab with anchor bolts. Drill completely through the slab for the anchor bolts. If the anchor bolts require replacing in the future all you need to do is take a punch and drive the anchor bolt into the ground and then replace same. I also do not have the float balls in my waterers in order to give the herd better access. Last Winter I put a single ball in to minimize heat loss from the water. Worst case thus far has been a thin coating of ice on the exposed access water hole without the ball. I would recommend using Pex to transition from the main line to the drinker valve. Freezing will not burst the Pex.


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## godsgapeach

Got it! The Ritchie distributor recommended just a 10-inch piece of pvc to surround the water line. He said based on where I am, that should be just fine.

Thanks!


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## agmantoo

godsgapeach

I failed to mention that the waterer has an opening in the base for the supply line to feed up through to the control valve. The concrete slab needs an opening to mate with this supply line opening. Then the slab with the mounted waterer needs to be located/centered over the earth tube. The supply line does need to be centered and not touching the earth except at the bottom of the earth tube. The earth tube heat will now have a path into the valve area. Caulk the waterer base to the concrete slab. This joint is the most critical part of the installation to avoid freezing.


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## agmantoo

I never cease to be amazed at the staying power ky31 fescue possesses and its ability to rebound. At the end of June I had a visitor to the farm and we were in an extremely dry condition. Really we were on the edge of a drought. Needless to admit, and if you somewhat know me, I was embarrassed at the condition of the paddocks. The area in this pic I had clipped a few days before the visitor came. Surprisingly, in July we got some needed rain and here at the end of the month is the results just 30 days later. If a person doubts the benefits of rotational grazing all they need to convince themselves is to have observed this. Remember fescue is a cool season grass and the temps have been and remain far above where it performs its best.


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## lamoncha lover

agmantoo
That is actually lovely pasture. I would be so ashamed of a picture of mine.
I have held the horses off the pasture pretty much all summer. Finally hired a farmer to mow it down (remember my serecia problem) I think it got cut just prior to bloom. Tractor is still dead so haven't been able to do anything else.
I've got my soil sample taken..waiting for results. I could not get down very far into the earth..it was hardpacked and dry..rocky and very hard. Even jumping on the shovel didn't give me very good results for my dirt samples. Hope I got enough to give a decent reading. I will be planting ky 31fescue when the time is right. I don't know how long before I have pastures as nice as yours..but I sure hope someday


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## topgun

agmantoo said:


> I never cease to be amazed at the staying power ky31 fescue possesses and its ability to rebound. At the end of June I had a visitor to the farm and we were in an extremely dry condition. Really we were on the edge of a drought. Needless to admit, and if you somewhat know me, I was embarrassed at the condition of the paddocks. The area in this pic I had clipped a few days before the visitor came. Surprisingly, in July we got some needed rain and here at the end of the month is the results just 30 days later. If a person doubts the benefits of rotational grazing all they need to convince themselves is to have observed this. Remember fescue is a cool season grass and the temps have been and remain far above where it performs its best.


Agmantoo, When I was there the first of June I thought you had pretty good grass,but 30 days later and a little rain really makes a big difference.Rotating really is the only way to go. Up here in Ky it has been above 90 degrees 25 of 30 days with heat index between 100 and 115,really hot for us. I went out and bushhogged most of the overgrown pasture I had to get rid of the ironweed and other weeds and rotated through them and had some real good regrowth even in this heat. It's kind of hard to get them to move out of the shade to another paddock after 9 am til 7 pm. The pasture looks better and seems to come back thicker now than when I waited to bushhog after grazing. Thanks for all the tips on this thread.


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## agmantoo

topgun
Glad to see you are posting here!
The folks here are a good group.
I have also been doing some bushhogging but will now wait until after the middle of August. Rarely will weeds have time to recover and make seeds able to germinate if I wait until then. It is time to get things in order to prepare for Fall planting. I intend to put some Marshall ryegrass out starting early Sept. I most likely will plant several times in different areas spread over roughly 3 to 4 weeks. Good to hear from you.
Remind me, weren't you here on the 28 of June rather than the first as mentioned above?


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## topgun

agmantoo said:


> topgun
> Glad to see you are posting here!
> The folks here are a good group.
> I have also been doing some bushhogging but will now wait until after the middle of August. Rarely will weeds have time to recover and make seeds able to germinate if I wait until then. It is time to get things in order to prepare for Fall planting. I intend to put some Marshall ryegrass out starting early Sept. I most likely will plant several times in different areas spread over roughly 3 to 4 weeks. Good to hear from you.
> Remind me, weren't you here on the 28 of June rather than the first as mentioned above?


You are right,it was the 28th. It took me 3 days to get back home. had to go and see Andy and Barney the Indian casino and Gattlenburg on the way home.


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## Gabriel

Thanks for the motivational picture, Agman. 

I'm still in the first year (2nd rotation cycle) of doing this but already see some serious benefits to the pasture. My father in law thinks I'm nuts. :nanner:


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## bigbluegrass

Just wanted to share with everyone an update on how things are going here. I started rotational grazing last year, in the spring of 2010, with help from this post and after reading a few books on it. The grass was OK. I thought it was great in the spring, but it didn't last too long. I started strong, that is for sure. It did better than in previous years. I had a lot of weeds. Then it got dry from July to November. The end results were not very impressive, but I kept with it. I ended up feeding hay from September to April, which was about what all the neighbors were doing as well. It was an expensive winter! I couldn't get any rye or ryegrass to grow due to the dry conditions.

This spring the grass came back like I have never seen before. It was tall and thick with so many different kinds that I have never seen before. I grazed everything on a 30 to 45 day rotation and we had good timely rains. Where I fed hay was some of the nicest grass. Everything looked so good. It has been a little dry now but not like last year and nothing like some of you are going through. The grass is still green and coming back. I noticed that my neighbors grass is brown and drying up already. The yards in town are all brown unless they are watering them heavily. The short grass can't seem to take the heat. Right now, I have 30 days of good grass and at least 60 days emergency grass if I need it (this is a patch of new grass I started that I am trying to let get established). It is all still coming back with good regrowth. If the grass can keep growing, I will be able to stockpile for winter with no problems. I still think I will buy some hay for this winter, just because I don't have confidence in winter grazing yet. But I know it can be done here and some day I will do it. I just need to get my mind around how much I need to stockpile to last the winter.

What I am saying is stick in there folks. Rotational grazing does work. Agmantoo is a great tutor and asset to the farming community. I don't think he has any idea how many people he has helped with just this single thread. With corn prices shooting up daily, this is the only solution that makes any long term sense. Agmantoo, I really appreciate all your help. Some day I hope I can repay you!


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## trbizwiz

Yes definitely , thanks to Godsgapeach for starting the thread, and for Agmantoo for making it all work.


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## main_man

godsgapeach

Just wondered how you guys are doing having switched to the rotational grazing for some time now, are you any closer to achieving 'good' pastures and or producing the cattle you are after in terms of breed, numbers, frame size etc, how have you coped with the hot dry summer and are you grazing longer into winter reducing the amount of hay?? aslo, and perhaps most importantly are you seeing the financial results having changed your approach?? Any chance you could post some photos?


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## lockhart76

hello everyone, great thread, great site. I am new here and it is very encouraging to find others discovering the joys of growing more grass. as a holistic practitioner and an advocate of planned rotational grazing i was just wondering why you guys bushhog?


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## SCRancher

Bushhog
1) to stop the fescue from going to seed which causes it to stay in a growing state for a longer period of time.
2) to cut weeds that would otherwise go to seed and increase the problem or potential problem (seed bank).
3) to cut overly mature grass to promote the growth of new more nourishing grass.

These are the reasons that I do it now - point #3 is less of an issue except when an over abundance of grass is to be had.

Learned all 3 reasons from this thread there may be more or clarification or better reasoning may be had if agmantoo comments.


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## sassafras manor

Clipping serves a couple of purposes....one is to help keep the grasses in a vegetative condition where they will continue to produce new growth rather than moving into a reproductive stage in which they want to produce seed and in turn will not produce new growth. The other advantage to clipping at various stages of the season is to prevent weed seed from maturing. Plus there are many weeds that if clipped few times during the season cannot get established and will begin to die out. The larger coarser weeds such marestail, goldenrod, ragweed etc fall into that group. This is my first year regularly clipping and i can notice a tremendous increase in the amount of desireable foliage in my pastures. With the summer having been as hot as it has I am carrying almost twice the number of cattle on the same amount of acreage and still the grass is getting ahead of them. Good luck!


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## TennVol

I'm only half way through this topic but have found this to be extremely informative and interesting. After I finish reading, I might have a few questions for you all. 
We are in the process of closing on a house and 11.29 acres in central Ohio that is currently in corn. I would like to turn everything back into pasture and run a few head of beef using the techniques I'm learning here. if anyone has had any experience developing a pasture from a cornfield, let me know!


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## sassafras manor

TennVol - I am in a similar situation but we are currently in soybeans. Our plan is to have wheat planted after the beans are out then frost seed a pasture/hay blend over the wheat in late Febuary-early March. That would give us plenty of straw for the next year then additional pasture acreage late next summer to fall. Having that additional acreage would increase our carrying capacity for stockpiling thru our winters. If any of you with more exprience have a better idea I would appreciate the input. I know that many of you are in the more southern states, but how many of you run thru winter without feeding hay in a zone 5 area?


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## trbizwiz

The best time to plant forage is in the early fall. I would not wait until Feb to plant your fescue and such. Planting it in fall gives you two growing seasons to get the roots established. 
First thing you will want to do though is get a soil test. I am guessing NPK is good because corn would not grow otherwise. But I would imagine some poultry litter would go a long way to improving the soil, an dincreasing your organic matter. 
But I definitely recomend planting in September dont wait until winter.


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## godsgapeach

agmantoo said:


> godsgapeach
> 
> I failed to mention that the waterer has an opening in the base for the supply line to feed up through to the control valve. The concrete slab needs an opening to mate with this supply line opening. Then the slab with the mounted waterer needs to be located/centered over the earth tube. The supply line does need to be centered and not touching the earth except at the bottom of the earth tube. The earth tube heat will now have a path into the valve area. Caulk the waterer base to the concrete slab. This joint is the most critical part of the installation to avoid freezing.


Sorry, Agman--JUST getting back to this. I keep forgetting to check my gmail account. I've been in the pasture working on the waterlines FOREVER it seems. Really we only started digging Saturday a week ago.

The trench has been dug, pipe joined, trench filled, forms for concrete built...

Now the NRCS specs deviate from any LOGICAL plan here. We can't just hook up the waterers on the concrete and call it done. For one thing the concrete must be 8x8. Then surrounding the concrete there must be 17 x 17 ft of geotex cloth, which then has gravel on top. Totally crazy!

So we haven't gotten past the step you mentioned. 

The Ritchie dealer (I highly recommend him) suggested putting a piece of 10-inch pvc around the upright supply line as additional "insulation" and we're also using that to keep the hold in the concrete when it gets poured. He said the 10-inch pvc should be just fine here instead of the "anti-freeze kit" that Ritchie offers.


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## godsgapeach

main_man said:


> godsgapeach
> 
> Just wondered how you guys are doing having switched to the rotational grazing for some time now, are you any closer to achieving 'good' pastures and or producing the cattle you are after in terms of breed, numbers, frame size etc, how have you coped with the hot dry summer and are you grazing longer into winter reducing the amount of hay?? aslo, and perhaps most importantly are you seeing the financial results having changed your approach?? Any chance you could post some photos?



main_man, just getting to this post. Sorry!

Right now, our rain has been SO limited (about 1 inch total from July 1 until last night when we got .8 inch WOOHOO!). That combined with so many days with 100+ temps means we are PARCHED! There is very little grazing to be had anywhere, and the herd ate the paddocks down until there was nothing left to rotate to. So I turned them loose in the rest of the pasture. Thankfully we HAVE a rest of the pasture. 

If I had paddocks on the entire field, we would still be rotating though. I feel sure that if I could have contained them and directed them more, we'd still have good grazing. And the thing is, they WANT to rotate. They like not having their "plate set." And they trust me to show them where to go. 

Even in the winter--one of the worst we've had lately--I rotated through a major snow/ice here with very little supplemental hay. Again, if I'd had a few more acres fenced, we'd have gone all the way to spring. They were turned out for about 3 weeks until the grass began to green up.

The cows and calves are in great shape--even with the heat and dryness. The pastures are suffering the lack of rain, but WHEN it rains, they look better weedwise. I'm still fighting the persimmons though. Deep old roots even stopped the trencher! The trees you can see are only saplings--with trunks less than an inch in diameter, but underground there are roots 7 inches in diameter easily! I guess that comes from years of bushhogging the trees...

Financially, there is definite gain with each calf sold! We haven't had a great big windfall, but the calves gain weight faster and are more solid. Plus most of them are black--with the exception of some with Charolais influenced mamas--which also helps the paycheck.

Until we get some rain, there's not much to see. But if I can remember I'll take a picture of the bull in the next few days. He's looking excellent!


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## SuperDog

Godsgapeach,

Thats very encouraging to hear. I've notice a little improvement in my pastures by changing to rotational grazing, but Im only on my second year. Its nice to hear actual reports of the changes and results rotational grazing has done.


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## godsgapeach

I realized later that I'd put the wrong amount of fabric/gravel to surround the concrete pads. It's actually 34 x 34 (17 feet into each paddock on each side of the HT wire). So of course you're losing that much grass as well. :/


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## SCRancher

Godsgapeach - it may be too late for you to consider this but have you thought about a mobile water cart? No permanent stuff to put down (concrete, fabric, etc...) that's the approach I took and it's working well for me.


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## trbizwiz

Let's see some pics and details on that cart.


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## godsgapeach

LOL yes, it's WAAAAY too late to change directions. Actually our original plan was for NRCS (through the EQIP program) to help pay on our HT fencing, BUT their specs for that were even worse than the water station specs. Their requirement is 4 strands of INTERIOR HT wire. No Thanks! So we switched the funding to waterers.


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## SCRancher

trbizwiz said:


> Let's see some pics and details on that cart.


It's in this thread - here is the link:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showpost.php?p=5174574&postcount=1597

Let me know if you have any questions. It was MUCH simpler to install then the fencing that's for sure.

Buy 2 inch slip fitting PVC Pipe, T's, and reducers along with the hydrants.

Prior to digging I already had purchased the PVC pipe and went ahead and installed the T's for the risers into 20 of the pipes (every 200 feet for my install). Then every 10th pipe was one with a T.

Rent a trencher - I had 6,000 feet of trench dug in about 12 hours and the pipe all put in place in a weekend.

I pulled a trailer load of 20 foot long sections of PVC pipe along side of the trench laying them out along side. Then went back and slipped them all together. 

They slipped together - biggest problem I had was not knowing I had to bury the end pieces - I wanted to put a flush valve on the end of the runs but the pipe would "slip" off under pressure so after several false starts I finally just buried the end of the runs and called it good.


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## SCRancher

Each NCRS is different - I'm the one who suggested it to ours for our grant - they liked the idea and let me run a single strand of hot wire down my 3 permanent interior runs.


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## godsgapeach

You're right. The Georgia specs are RIDICULOUS! Even the state grazing guy said they were crazy. BUT because of my objections, they were going to "revisit" the specs and could possibly change them, but it would never have happened within the time limit of our contract.

I showed them South Carolina's, Arkansas's, Missouri's and Alabama's (I think AL, too--can't remember) specs. Hopefully it can change for future applicants!


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## SteveO

evening all
Please confirm the heights for 3 wire electric fence 9-22-36??.
And are there any Lowline owners on the site
We finaly made the move 2 weeks ago to our new life
between the grandson and the new occupation (grass farmer) life is good
Steve


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## SCRancher

I like my top perimeter fence strand to be 48 high.
I would do 18, 32, 48 if I was doing 3 strand and I would make the middle strand ground with first and 3rd hot.

Then again I wouldn't do 3 strand on my perimeter fence but that's me.
My current perimeter fence is 6 strand - if I was to do it over again I would do 5 strand omitting the bottom strand @ 6 inches.
my current (I think) is 6, 12, 18, 24, 34, 48 

Interior cross fencing I use a single strand with 50 feet between posts (supported where need be with step in fiberglass). I think I set that line to 36 inches.
I occasionally have a cow on the wrong side of the interior fencing and calves have to be almost adult height before the quit ducking under - I may go to 2 strand
interior permanent cross fencing but I'm not sure of that yet.

So far I have not had any cattle outside of my perimeter.


Fi-Shock recommends:
Wire spacing from ground up: 11", 7", 8", 9", and 10" 
Hot wires from ground up are wire 1, wire 3, and wire 5 
Which translates to 11, 18, 26, 35, and 45


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo... I sent you a email about coming to your place to check out your rotational grazing next week.


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## randyandmegs

Nevermind... I just found your reply. I will contact you by phone.


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## trbizwiz

I have 2 wire interior cross fencing. I dont think I would do it again. It is more challenging to get the cows from one side to the other. Drop your top wire height a little to help keep the smaller ones in. But over all the smaller ones should be just browsing so they should not do much damage to the other forage. The exception to this and I am in this group is if you are raisng bottle beef. They will eat a lot of grass since they arent getting milk from mamma. This is why I did 2 wires. But I wont be doing bottle beef in the future so that second wirte wont be a part of my future plans. 
Bottle babbies are a good plan for diversity if you dont mind the work. Buy em cheap raise them to ween weight in the barn with some forage adn sell them to people who want to "raise their own beef" and let them put them on their two acres. It is a good value for DIY beef, and looks good on your tax forms if your operation is new and you arent turning any bucks. plus you are only in the business for 2 months per year. But bottle babbies arent worth much at the sale barn at butcher weight compared to a beef steer.


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## SCRancher

trbizwiz - I think my situation as far as moves is different than yours and agmantoo's - I don't move my cows under or over wires - I have spring gates at the end of my rectangular permanent sections that I size accordingly with polywire so 2 strand would not hinder the movement of my cattle.

I do however understand how it would be a problem if I were doing it that way.


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## trbizwiz

I am trying to transition to a new property if I can get a deal done. Ill be setting it up in 2 lanes with a transport lane in th ecenter. That lane will allow access to water in the form of a pond and a frost free waterer, as well as trees for shelter in hot and cold months. THis will greatly reduce the work load for rotational grazing, which is critical when scaling up in size. In order to do this crossing wires as agman does is the only viable way I cn visualize. But yes if your system does not rely on transport lanes to meet water and shelter needs then a 2 wire system would be very effective in keeping most beef on a paddock. But your young spunky calves will still get through. It would probably take 2 hot and a ground to really lock down a paddock. Even then the young and adventerous will probably escape. THose make good beef, but cut off those genetics. They should only do it for a few months. Eventually they grow up and settle down. Still adventerous is not a gene you want to pass on.


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## agmantoo

I do not have any perimeter fence jumpers. They left here years ago. My cattle are docile regardless of what some say about Angus types. I only have 4 strands of high tensile electric perimeter fence. The spacing is 12, 22, 32 and 42. Only the 22 and the 42 are hot. During thunderstorm season I switch the top wire from hot to ground. This arrangement has reduced the damage to my fence chargers from lightning. Four stands are not adequate to keep small calves in in high traffic areas IMO.

As for a single stand of partition fencing I find that it works best for me. With my herd count I also like raising the fence as compared to any type of gate. I typically move cattle near fence corners and the fence aids in "funneling" the cattle in the direction they are being moved. If you want frustration, try to move cattle through any type gate in the middle of a long straight run of any number of stands. Cattle really are not that smart and if you create any type of maze they get confused. Another point is that cattle like to walk in the same tracks as the other cattle use. If the gates are in a fixed location they will wear the ground bare where they are forced to concentrate. By raising the partition fence I can create a "gate" most anywhere and reduce the soil compaction and the damage to the forage.


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## sticky_burr

any advice on heights with dexters probally followed by turkeys


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## trbizwiz

use the HT goat wire if you are planning on running poultry. IF it is electrified it will reduce your ground predators. But the air predators will be your biggest problem until the tirkeys are adult size. HT goat wire can be pricey and you will need a big charger because that is a lot of wire to energize.


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## Dwight

I stumbled onto this thread about a week ago and am really thankful for the education. We are a small producer of custom beef and have been thinking of starting a rotational grazing system. The information you folks have provided has been priceless. I think Agman needs to start his own "graziers school" and I would be the first to sign up!

I have now read the entire thread and need more reading material. Any on-line suggestions?

Agman: Are you willing to look at a layout I have been thinking about for a small place just south of Atlanta?

Again, you guys are a blessing. Keep up the great work.
Dwight


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## Gabriel

Dwight, welcome to the site! 

I haven't been able to find any site more informative than this one. If anyone else knows of one, I'd love to see it.


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## agmantoo

Dwight

I will review your layout. This is a busy time of year for me and I may be a little slow with feedback however. Indicate on your plans where all water(streams, ponds and wells) are located and where you expect to corral/load/unload/vet treat/owner treat, etc. You are located where? What type fencing do you have?


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## Dwight

Good Morning Everyone:

Gabriel: Thanks for the reply. I have not found another either.

Agmantoo: Thanks. I know about busy! I will get the info you requested and will post as soon as I can.

Thanks again,
Dwight

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" Proverbs 27:17


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## 3legdonkey

Agmantoo,
Thank you for inviting me over to the board and thread. I have been working on how to go about using your type of rotational grazing, using a number of books including "All Flesh Is Grass" by Logsdon, but the books lacked the personal discussion that this thread has. 

I am in no rush to get things started as I only have 17 cattle on over 600 acres. My eventual goal is to have ~68 cattle with most of the offspring being sold directly to the consumer using the sale barn as a last resort. I do want to get things moving by next spring so have some work set out for me this fall/winter. My time frame for this depends on other business ventures but I believe within three years I can have everything in place and working. I should also state that this project is my lowest priority as it costs me nothing to leave it alone and let it continue to pay the taxes and insurance on the land.

To answer your standard questions:
1. > 600 acres with about 300 in good pasture, the rest forest
2. All fields are fenced with 3 strand barb wire
3. All fields have access to water (river, springs, or ponds)
4. Very little access to electric (property is in the middle of nowhere)
5. Most fields are long and straight which makes creating paddocks easy
6. I currently have travel lanes I can use to move the cattle or allow access to resources if I cross fence with electric
7. I have figured out how to use gravity fed water lines and movable waterers to provide water after I start using the paddock design.
8. I have cattle handling facilities but they need some rework (planned for this winter)
9. My tenant/partner has a lifetime of experience with cattle including vet skills
10. Location SW MO in zone 6a
11. I have a tractor with implements including a 10' rotary mower

Some challenges I have:
1. 2/3rds of fields are flooded by the river once or twice a year. Usually not more than 15 feet of water depth over fields (drains within 5 to 10 days)
2. My tenant has 8 horses that I have to work into the plan. For some reason he does not get that they are eating him out of house and home. Like many who keep them he is horse poor...
3. My tenant/partner has a lifetime of experience with cattle which means he has a lot of relearning to do

Quick question?
Has anyone used a set of solar chargers to power the cross fences for their paddocks? I intend to leave my field boundary fence as barbwire but use the electric (solar chargers) to cross fence.

My to do list:
1. Educate tenant / partner
2. Get accurate measurements of my land so I can plan the paddocks properly
3. Plan paddocks
4. Repair all fences and redesign the ones along the river so the flooding destroys less fence each year
5. Purchase electric fencing equipment
6. Start...

Any suggestions right off the bat? And is there anyone in SW MO already along this path who would not mind a visitor? Being that my tenant and I are from the "show me state" I need to show him.


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## agmantoo

3legdonkey

I use a solar fence charger at the back side of my place. It is a ParMak 12 volt unit that I bought roughly 3 years ago. Do not even consider the 6 volt unit. The one that I have went the entire three years on the original battery but just recently I replaced the battery to be assured that the fence charger would be a peak when I need it. Shop the internet for the best value for this unit.

Reading your post above it appears that you are about set to go forward with your venture. I do not understand why you want to limit the herd size to ~68 head however. I try to hold the cow/heifer count to ~100 and I only have 141 acres in pasture at this time. I would like to suggest that you attempt to determine what the requirement in acreage is for maintaining a cow/calf during "trying" conditions and at least bring the headcount up to that.


----------



## SCRancher

I think under grazing pressure while not as bad as over grazing will still cost you income and create more work.

The problem for me - last year was a bad year and I fed a lot of hay (learning experience as it was my first year). This year while I have 3 more cattle than last year the weather has been cooperative and I have more grass then they can eat which means that some get's over mature unless I want to spend the time and money to clip the pasture.


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## 3legdonkey

Thank you for the extra fast response!



agmantoo said:


> 3legdonkey
> 
> I use a solar fence charger at the back side of my place. It is a ParMak 12 volt unit that I bought roughly 3 years ago. Do not even consider the 6 volt unit. The one that I have went the entire three years on the original battery but just recently I replaced the battery to be assured that the fence charger would be a peak when I need it.


Beside the 6volt battery and it possibly being harder to find what is the issue with the 6 volt model?

Also I like the looks of this one as it is somewhat idiot proof.
http://www.patriotchargers.com/ps15.htm
I figure after a year of reviews on Amazon I should know if it at least works... And at the price I can buy 4 of them so I have two spares.



> Reading your post above it appears that you are about set to go forward with your venture. I do not understand why you want to limit the herd size to ~68 head however. I try to hold the cow/heifer count to ~100 and I only have 141 acres in pasture at this time.


Simple. Nature can take 2/3rds of my acreage from me at any time and put it under water for a week. So I have to plan for floods and the issues they will cause me. I cannot have ground that is torn up like you did at the begging of the year or I could lose significant soil to the river.


> I would like to suggest that you attempt to determine what the requirement in acreage is for maintaining a cow/calf during "trying" conditions and at least bring the headcount up to that.


I have had over 160 cattle on the property when it was rented for grazing. But the damage they did to the land was significant. I have almost 80 acres that are now across the river because of poor land management practices. So I must be very cautious with my loading so as to have the least damaging effect on the land.

It is possible over time I may figure out that I can add 10 or 20 more cows and not create any undue stresses but at the moment 12 cows will pay the taxes and insurance so 60 to 70 would be exceptional!


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## agmantoo

The ParMak 6volt solar has too low of an output for large acreage.
The Patriot unit (Maximum output energy Up to 0.15 ) 
is a lower output that the 6 volt ParMak. More money spent for a unit that will perform is far cheaper than buying a handful of units that are unsatisfactory. The ParMak has a good warranty also.


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## 3legdonkey

SCRancher said:


> I think under grazing pressure while not as bad as over grazing will still cost you income and create more work.
> 
> The problem for me - last year was a bad year and I fed a lot of hay (learning experience as it was my first year). This year while I have 3 more cattle than last year the weather has been cooperative and I have more grass then they can eat which means that some get's over mature unless I want to spend the time and money to clip the pasture.


I probably have a different problem then you and Agmantoo, I have to much water and so must accept some loss of efficiency to protect my land.


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## 3legdonkey

agmantoo said:


> The ParMak 6volt solar has too low of an output for large acreage.
> The Patriot unit (Maximum output energy Up to 0.15 )
> is a lower output that the 6 volt ParMak. More money spent for a unit that will perform is far cheaper than buying a handful of units that are unsatisfactory. The ParMak has a good warranty also.


Well that settles it. I will get three of the 12v ParMak units so I have two in service and one as a backup.


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## ufo_chris

Can I use Kentucky tall type 31 Fescue to overseed my cow pasture with? (ohio ,zone 5 )
It's the only seed I was able to find near me (not a huge priority right now) in a 50 lb sack.
And what about Fescue poisoning, would I have to worry about that? 
I just know it holds up better in winter.
Thanks,Chris


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## agmantoo

I believe that there are more acres is Fescue than any other grass in the USA. Fescue KY31 is the backbone of my rotational grazing beef cattle operation. At certain seasons, KY31 has a higher protein content than alfalfa. Endophyte is the name of the problem associate with fescue. If you will keep the seed heads clipped your animal should do great. Planting clover for forage will also offset the endophyte. Clipping the seed heads will also promote more growth of the leafy portion and a longer growing period. At one time the county that I reside was the largest dairy county in NC. The pastures were nearly 100% KY 31 and some of those pastures still remain from the initial plantings. KY31 is an enduring forage. Fescue is considered a cool season grass but with rain it will continue to grow most of the year. I will be reseeding, within a week, fescue and ryegrass in areas where where I have some drought thinned spots. Have you tried any Marshall ryegrass? I interseed the MR with the fescue.


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## SCRancher

agmantoo,

Did you find a new seed supplier? Is the place affordable? Care to share?

Thanks!


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

There were no bargains to be had other than with crimson clover. Tractor Supply has fescue at $29/50 lbs as a lost leader for a few more days. I linked up with a neighbor farmer to get a decent price on the crimson clover. Southern States has access to the Marshall Ryegrass but the price is over $28 / 50lb. I am uncertain what the shipping would be but the best source I know of is http://www.clemmonshamnerseed.com/


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## ufo_chris

Thanks Agmantoo. Yes I searched high and low for the Marshall last year and finally found it 2hrs away but at that time we were getting frosts already so I didn't think I could still use it.
My pasture has a lot of the crimson clover already ,so I'm glad to hear that.
So it's the seed heads then that give the problems? How tall does it get b/f it sets seed?
I usually clip when I see seed heads but sometimes I don't get right to it or the fresh pasture gets ahead of me .
One more Q.: We just had quite a bit of rain the last couple of days. I'm thinking this is the best to do it now, but does it have to be where the cows will work it in?
That's kinda hard then to do a larger area with the IRG? 
Also the fescue being a more cool season grass ,can I seed it after some frosts too?
Thanks so much,Chris


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris
Fescue will be approximately knee high when the seeds reach the dough stage. If you will observe the fescue it will send out a shoot that will contain the seed head. Keeping this shoot clipped is where you get the control and advantage from the fescue. 

Regarding the Marshall rye grass. It is not essential to have the cattle to walk the seed into the soil. Broadcast ryegrass on the soil surface coupled with rain will give you a stand.

Fescue is best seeded as cool season arrives. Later seeding may be OK but the risk increases. Anything you plant or raise is best never stressed. Ideally you want the seed to germinate, establish a good root sytem and grow rapidly and produce the desired results.


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## ufo_chris

Agmantoo ,thanks for your response. 
I don't have the Marshall, just the Fescue ,that's the one I was asking about the cows walking it in. Would it be the same?
Thanks, Chris


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris

When broadcasting seed versus drilling, I add approximately 20% more seed to the amount broadcast.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks, but do the cows have to walk it in?


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## agmantoo

I think it helps for the cattle to trample the seed to improve soil contact but it is not essential for them to do so. Fescue does best IMO when planted shallow. Good timely rain does wonders in establishing the fescue as well as ryegrass.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks Agmantoo. So I'll see what the weather is supposed to do and maybe broadcast it all. Right now I have just been using it in the area the cows are in at the time. 
We had a lot of rain the last few days but none today.
Thanks, Chris


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## agmantoo

It has been about two weeks since we fortunately got some heavy rain. The pastures are recovering nicely from the previously partched situation. I thought that I would share what the herd is going through at this time. I am compressing the space allocated for grazing in order to begin the accumulation period for the fescue that will be stockpiled to carry the animals through Winter. Even though we were very dry and the forage was not growing I did not buy any baled hay to offset having to graze what grass that existed to a shorter height than desired. At this time I am considering whether to buy some nitrogen to give the current growth a boost. Such decisions are what IMO causes convention producers to hold back from converting to rotational grazing. It would be a lot easier going into Winter if I had hay on hand. (I do have 16 days worth of emergency hay that I hold all year long) Here is a pic taken this evening. The herd is moving left to right and they have consumed the strip on the left behind them over the last 3 days.


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## 3legdonkey

May be a stupid question, but I have a boat load of standing grass already. Should it be mowed down and allowed to re grow or should I leave it alone and consider it my stockpile?


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## SCRancher

I personally would keep it as stockpiled.

I'm with Agmantoo - I'm starting to stockpile my fescue now - I have no emergency hay - I'm not sure if I'll need it this year - I think it will be close and it may be that I need a couple of weeks worth - we'll see.


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## Gabriel

3legdonkey said:


> May be a stupid question, but I have a boat load of standing grass already. Should it be mowed down and allowed to re grow or should I leave it alone and consider it my stockpile?


How much is there and how much longer will your growing season continue? You're surely not that much off of TN's growing season, and if that's the case, I'd leave it unless it was really rank.


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## 3legdonkey

Gabriel said:


> How much is there and how much longer will your growing season continue? You're surely not that much off of TN's growing season, and if that's the case, I'd leave it unless it was really rank.


I believe we are pretty close in growing seasons as well. We have had one frost so far but it will be in the 70's this week. The grass is from 1 to 2 feet and looks really good. Do have some areas with weeds but that is pretty normal.

ThanX


----------



## Dwight

Hello Everyone:
Is there a minimum distance your first ground rod should be from the fence charger?
Thanks,
Dwight


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## trbizwiz

I try to keep mine close just to make sure there are no shorts between the charger and the ground. I know some folks use one fo the strands of HT wire as a ground, and by doing that they can put the ground rods anywhere on the peremiter of the fence. Just make sure you get at least 3 feet of ground rod in the ground for each joule of power. 

I do not prefer to use a ground wire in my fencing strands. I like to be able to cross a hot fence with muck boots being my insulation. With a strand of ground wire in your fencing system you get shocked even with insulated boots. 

It is probably a better policy to just turn off the fence, I just do not do it that way.


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## ufo_chris

How long will it be before the fescue sprouts (had quite a bit of rain when I started broadcasting) and how long before I can let the cows back on that area?
Thanks!


----------



## SteveO

Has anyone tried the Barblanca clover? It seems to be a replacement for Alice. And the local coop can not even buy it or Alice??? So where can I find the alice clover no one in the west TN area seems to carry it.
and thanks for the grounding answer I am getting close to that point in my fencing finally
Thanks
Steve
Update for Agmantoo
Got 1 field fenced working on #2
Got a seeder
IS it a issue using black plastic irrigation pipe for cattle watering??


----------



## SCRancher

Regarding ground rods and trbizwiz's post.

I do basically what he said some do - I use a ground wire and my ground rods are tied to my ground wire. My ground rods are 1 in each corner of the rectangular fenced area and 1 in the center of each long run - all on the parameter fence my cross fencing is single hot strand.

I have a total of 8 ground rods spread out around the property - all of them 8 foot long and driven all the way in. I discovered a very cool way of driving ground rods - hammer drill - ground one of the bits flat (not chisel or breaker anymore). Worm clamp a 6 or 8 inch piece of 3/4 inch garden hose to the flat bit slip it over the end of the ground rod and pull the trigger - took me a minute or two once I pulled the trigger to drive all 8 feet into the ground.


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## Gabriel

Dig a hole just large enough to hold some water. Pour the water into it, ram the ground rod into the hole. Pull it out part ways, ram it down again. Rinse, repeat... it doesn't take a ton of effort to do. I shocked (ho ho) my brother in law with this method.


----------



## godsgapeach

SteveO said:


> Has anyone tried the Barblanca clover? It seems to be a replacement for Alice. And the local coop can not even buy it or Alice??? So where can I find the alice clover no one in the west TN area seems to carry it.


Here's where I found my Alice clover: http://welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=340


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## NorthTexasGuy

Well it has taken me over three weeks to complete this thread, but it was well worth it. I thank you Agmantoo and others for the effort you put into this. After getting through about page 10 I started over and created a word doc as I read with info I found of interest because I was concerned that a server crash would wipe out the info that I'll need to reference later. I included many, many pics in it. I hope those that posted pics don't mind the theft. It ended up like a small book with 50+ pages. I will use it as a tutorial as I begin the process of converting to rotational grazing. I'll gladly email a copy to anyone that would like one. You'll have to ignore the unprofessional layout as this was done on-the-fly and may seem unorganized to anyone but me. 

Agmantoo,

I would like to get your thoughts on drought. We are in one of the worst droughts on record. We're currently over 20" behind on rain year-to-date and SE OK was named an exceptional drought (worst category) in July. The situation hasn't improved, and according to the weatherman the La Nina effect is likely to extend into next Spring. If it hadn't been for excess rain in May we would be in even worse shape as most of the Spring was also dry. Most small ponds have completely dried up. Early in the thread you mentioned the concern about drought and stated you were going to work on a plan. I didn't see you post what you did. Would you post your strategy? Is the Red River Crabgrass part of your plan? I feel fortunate to live within the Noble Foundation's service region and they developed RRCG. They also developed a new fescue called Texoma MaxQ II http://www.penningtonseed.com/pc-cool_season_12-pd-_490 . According to Pennington it is supposed to offer better yield per acre than KY-31 and has non-toxic endophyte. I have read that other varieties of endophyte-free fescue have a lower tolerance to drought, so I wonder If this variety has the same problem. The techsheet indicates it is relatively tolerant to drought. Maybe I'll email a forage consultant at Noble and get their thoughts. I am not so concerned about endophyte as I will manage it properly. Anyway, I am wondering how to best manage herd/pasture for extreme weather patterns such as these.


Kyle


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## PACrofter

NorthTexasGuy said:


> I'll gladly email a copy to anyone that would like one. You'll have to ignore the unprofessional layout as this was done on-the-fly and may seem unorganized to anyone but me.


Hi, Kyle - I've thought of doing the same thing but you're more organized than I am. I would love a copy of the document; to save yourself the trouble of emailing it to everyone on this thread (who will, I suspect, take you up on your offer), would you consider posting the file? I think there's some way of posting files but I don't know how to do it. Others can weigh in on how to do it...

Thanks in advance!


----------



## NorthTexasGuy

PACrofter,
Yes I'd be glad to post the document if I can figure out how to do so. I don't have access to it right now, but I'll try to post it later today. 

Something I just thought of - I do have current virus protection on my computer and I run it weekly, but I can't guarantee you that the document will not contain a virus.

Kyle


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## Dwight

Agmantoo:
I have not forgotten your offer to review a paddock plan for me but have been swamped lately and have not been able to finish it. Wish I could say the "swamped" was caused by rain!!
I think I have commited your criteria for selecting females to memory and have been using them when inspecting weaned calves for possible purchase from nearby farms. Most of the producers in my area are small and have less than 20-30 cows. Many of them, like myself, like their bulls and do not want to continuously change them. This creates problems with trying to build your herd intrnally. I just traded my only heiffer from this year's crop to another cattleman for his only heiffer. Both of their mama's fit your qualifications to a "T". Now instead of sending them to the sale barn we will both have quality genetics to keep in our herds. I also have met several other small cattleman whom I think are going to make good future friends. I am also purchasing a heiffer from one of them and he is really pleased to know where she is going.
Thanks again for all the encouragement and help from the group,
Dwight


----------



## NorthTexasGuy

PACrofter,
OK I hope this works as this is the first time I have tried it. I have the file hosted at the following address:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7ad9hxsju6jztdg

I apologize if this is an unfavorable hosting site. I simply did a web search for file hosting and it was the first hit. Of course I had to register with MediaFire in order to host a file, so you may need to register in order to view it. I scanned the file for virus before posting, so it should be clean. Let me know if you can't see the file or if it won't open for you. I'm not the most savvy computer user, but I'll try to correct it. Also please accept my apology if the file seems improperly formatted or disorganized. I created it over a two week period using two different computers with two versions of Microsoft Office - one is 2003 and the other is 2007. This caused some compatibility issues occasionally when saving at various times.


Kyle


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## SteveO

Thanks Kyle
Downloaded the file no problem and did NOT have to download anything from your server
thanks again
Steve


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## NorthTexasGuy

SteveO,
Glad it worked.

Kyle


----------



## ufo_chris

ufo_chris said:


> How long will it be before the fescue sprouts (had quite a bit of rain when I started broadcasting) and how long before I can let the cows back on that area?
> Thanks!


My first fescue sprouts are about 2" now!!!
So how long b/f I can let the cows back on it please?
I don't want them to kill it.
I'm currently on a 40+ day rotation ,is that long enough after seeding?
Thanks,Chris


----------



## PACrofter

NorthTexasGuy said:


> PACrofter,
> OK I hope this works as this is the first time I have tried it. I have the file hosted at the following address:
> http://www.mediafire.com/?7ad9hxsju6jztdg
> 
> Kyle


Kyle - Worked like a charm! Thanks so much!


----------



## godsgapeach

NorthTexasGuy said:


> They also developed a new fescue called Texoma MaxQ II http://www.penningtonseed.com/pc-cool_season_12-pd-_490 . According to Pennington it is supposed to offer better yield per acre than KY-31 and has non-toxic endophyte.
> 
> Kyle


NorthTexasGuy, I'll see about possibly getting some Texoma to test a patch and see if I can tell a difference between it and what has been growing here since I was a kid. Pennington's main plant is less than 10 minutes from me.


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## NorthTexasGuy

godsgapeach,

That would be great. I plan on planting some in the spring myself. I live in Texomaland and hopefully this variety will thrive here since it was developed about 40 miles from our farm.


Kyle


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## agmantoo

At $5/lb for Texoma and endophyte fescue established and growing everywhere here I believe I will continue as is. I never planted annual rye grass in the past but ended up with a lot of volunteer rye grass. Even if I initially got a pure stand of the Texoma it could be contaminated within a short time. At a $100 per acre seed cost for grass that may phase out within a short time, I see no gain at this juncture. The slower gain on the feeder calves really does not impact me that negatively since my feed costs are extremely low.


----------



## ufo_chris

ufo_chris said:


> My first fescue sprouts are about 2" now!!!
> So how long b/f I can let the cows back on it please?
> I don't want them to kill it.
> I'm currently on a 40+ day rotation ,is that long enough after seeding?
> Thanks,Chris


Sorry,reposting because a new page started and nobody answered yet.


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## ycanchu2

I would probably let it get up to about 4 to 6 inches tall myself, reach down and pull some , if it tears instead of pulling up you should be ok.


----------



## ycanchu2

On the subject of Fescue ....Ky 31. It almost seems to be a conspiracy to innhilate it by the powers that be. It is almost the quintessential grass 9 months out of the year.


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## SCRancher

I have Jessup MaxQ - some places it's thick and lush others it's not - still others it's been wiped out. I will not re-plant it - instead I am letting whatever volunteers come up - I would have liked to put in some Marshall or Jumbo Rye Grass but I just didn't get to it this year and it's looking like I will have enough grass to carry me through till spring.

I only planted the MaxQ because I had a grant that basically paid for it otherwise I would have planted KY31 Fescue I'm sure.


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## agmantoo

Took this pic today of the fescue I am stockpiling for Winter. Rather that wipe this out with Roundup and go with the unproven to me Texoma fescue I will cut seed heads until I know more.


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## ycanchu2

Even if you had the endophyte free fescue you would still need to clip the seed heads to keep it in a vegetative state, wouldn't ya?


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## ycanchu2

Agmantoo
Nice grass, tell me you clip that with a batwing and not 5 foot bushhog!


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## SteveO

evening all,
The local ext. office is pushing the Maxq and the KY32 which is a non also. Anyone used it yet??
Steve


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2
Welcome to the site! Thanks for the comment. If you turn around 180 degrees in place where the picture above was taken this is the view. I do not have a batwing but I do have a 10 ft semi mount bushhog.


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## ufo_chris

ycanchu2 said:


> I would probably let it get up to about 4 to 6 inches tall myself, reach down and pull some , if it tears instead of pulling up you should be ok.


Thank you!
Hope it grows fast! It's getting pretty cold at night though, near freezing.
Will it still grow?
Thanks, Chris


----------



## ycanchu2

ufo_chris said:


> Thank you!
> Hope it grows fast! It's getting pretty cold at night though, near freezing.
> Will it still grow?
> Thanks, Chris


Slowly but surely


----------



## MarkM

I will be broadcasting clover seed and then mowing over it to cover.

Should I do that now or wait until mid winter?

Zone 7


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## agmantoo

MarkM 

Welcome to the site! It is getting late here in NC to be seeding clover. You did not state the type of clover. I did broadcast some crimson clover about two weeks ago on some areas that I had been trying to improve. The crimson clover has emerged but I think it is risky to plant now. IMO if you wait until about the a week to 10 days before the average date of the last hard frost and broadcast your clover I believe you will be ahead. I suggest you run this by someone in your immediate area to see if they agree.


----------



## NorthTexasGuy

MarkM,

I am also in SE OK. We just broadcast arrowleaf clover and annual ryegrass earlier this week. I know it is a bit late, but we just baled that field last week. Everything has been running late this year. I guess we'll see if it was too late or not. We are expecting rain today, so that's a plus.

Kyle


----------



## NorthTexasGuy

agmantoo,

You have done a great job marketing rotational grazing. Are you in sales? I am very interested in making the switch. I have been helping my grandpa with his herd and just added some of my own. He has always been a conventional producer and puts up hay for his cows. He has the equipment and time to do it. I have talked with him some about switching to rotational, but he isn't receptive. He's in his upper 70s and has basically become a hobby rancher (under utilizing land, doesn't care if it makes a profit, etc...). I have a regular job, so baling hay in the summer is a tough proposition for me as you know "you have to make hay while the sun's shining" not when you have time for it. I do however have time to move the herd every day or so. I am thinking about asking him if he'll lease me some of his pasture and converting ~ 20 ac to rotational. I would have to have some early success to get him to buy in. One hurdle is there is very little cool season forage. The clover and ryegrass we planted is on a hayfield he plans on baling next summer. I'll have to plant fescue and wait two seasons before grazing. That means at least a year before any profit is realized on the up front cost. That's a hard pill to swallow.

Kyle


----------



## SCRancher

Double post delete please.


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## SCRancher

MarkM - I posted in this thread my experence with planting clover around this time of year vs clover I planted via frost seeding.

It's toward the bottom of the post under the pictures.

You can read about it here: in this post of this thread


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## MarkM

SCRancher,

Thanks, I will wait until mid-winter. I am itching to get it planted and time got away from me this fall. I have plenty to keep me busy until time to plant it.


----------



## MarkM

Agman,

Arrowleaf seems to be popular here. I will seeding some of that as well as some Alice to see which does better. At this point my equipment consists of a 25 hp old tractor, a 4 ft brushhog, a Kawasaki mule and a broadcast seeder.

I have everything ready to go on my rotational setup and hope to have some animals within a few weeks. Then the real education will begin.

NTguy,

I am near Tupelo. I am just getting started, but if you ever want to come by and see my setup just let me know.


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## SCRancher

Good article on Fescue stand loss and how to reduce it.

http://www.caes.uga.edu/commodities/fieldcrops/forages/Ga_Cat_Arc/2011/GC1106.pdf



> Arguably, the most important step to
> avoid tall fescue stand loss is proper timing
> of N fertilization. Most folks put on a large
> amount of N on tall fescue pastures and
> hayfields in mid-April. This is commonly
> applied as poultry litter. Though poultry
> litter is an excellent resource and one that
> can fit with tall fescue production systems,
> it has to be porperly timed. A time of year
> that is crucial for fertilizing tall fescue is in
> mid- to late-October. This is especially true
> for users of poultry litter.


----------



## wrightwayangus

This is an amazing conversation that has been going on for a long time. I am blessed to have randomly found this. I can't wait to ask questions and learn from everybody. Agman I sent you a message when you have a chance I would like to talk to you on the side, but will be happy to talk to everyone can gain knowledge.


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## WJMartin

Agmantoo,
this has been a very valuable thread, so thankful to those who are willing to share honestly. I do have a question, what did you do with all the old rotten hay? I have used hay in the walkways of my garden to smother out weeds, how did you put it on your pastures without killing the plants? I have a large pile I've been letting go to compost for a couple of years for the garden but maybe I can put it to better use on the pasture.

Thanks, WJMartin


----------



## agmantoo

WJMartin 

Regarding the rotten hay you are referencing....I am uncertain which rotten hay you are asking about. As for rotten round bales that existed many years ago I placed then on bare spots of very poor soil then I used a rototiller and worked the material into the soil to increase the organic matter, spread some seed and watched the land improve. Since going to year round rotational grazing, pugging and wasted hay are not a problem most years.

If you are referencing what I do with the hay residue that is fed to cattle during droughts that hay is almost non existent. I unroll round bales on clean ground and allocate what I want the herd to have. In turn the animals eat what they were given without waste of any consequence. When doing the unrolling I try to locate areas in the pasture that need improving and the cattle will pass their waste in a more concentrated manner and thus enrich the area. Works good and the land goes back into production.

If I have not answered your question clearly do not hesitate to ask for more details.


----------



## HDRider

Agmantoo -

What is your fertilizer regiment on that beautiful grass?

I am hoping you tell me that you are doing that well with natural humus, if so, would you credit the natural fertility of the soil or a program you have in place.

I would like to hear about the program if that is your answer.


----------



## WJMartin

Agmantoo,
Thanks for getting back with me. I was referring to a comment about using every bale of old rotten hay you could locate, I understand now that you were putting that on bare spots for soil improvement. I appreciate that you also included the info about rolling out the round bales for feeding, I have only seen them fed whole in the field which produces alot of waste.
As a side note: My DH was thinking we should get our own haying equipment after a rather unpleasant haying on shares this summer, but when he realized we couldn't afford good equipment and how often the old stuff breaks down he is now "on board" with building the fences for rotation. Of course that means removing about 1,000 cedar trees. grrrr. That's the sound of me starting my own chainsaw DH bought me for by birthday!


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## SCRancher

Before you go to removing cedar trees... I find my cows will either A) kill small trees or B) "trim" the branches off the ground for me up to "rubbing" height.

My cattle are doing quite a number on my overgrown wooded area and have opened it up quite a bit allowing light to hit the ground and promoting grass and herbs (aka weeds) to spring up where there was only trees and vines.

What I am trying to say is - get your fence up - let your cows in - see how far that get's ya before you go to the effort of doing labor to clear up something the cows may take care of for you.


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## ramiller5675

I'm not sure if you have the same sort of cedar trees in SC as we do in OK, but I think you would be better off in the long run to cut down every single cedar tree you can in your pastures, especially if they are small.

Little ones turn into big ones sooner than you think and the bigger they get the more work it is to remove them. They suck up a tremendous amount of water, spread like crazy, cause erosion, and are a fire hazard.

If you cut them down with an ax, make sure you cut below the ground surface so you don't leave sharp little stumps that will ruin tractor or truck tires all over your pasture.


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## WJMartin

SCRancher: If I had small cedars I would just run over them with the brushhog, and my old bull did like to rub on them, the new one, won't touch them. My cows and bull have been out on the pastures for almost a year but on 60 acres I probably have only 25-30 acres in grass because of the cedars and other trees. Most of the cedars are 12" - 24" in diameter, we use the logs to build furniture, fence, gazebos, flowerbeds and they make a nice bonfire too. I plan to leave a FEW large cedars because they are a great wind and snow break and make nice shade. We have just let them get out of hand the last twenty years.
ramiller5675, you're right, one of the worst things about cedars is the amount of water they consume (10 - 30 gal. per day) and they pull it from the grass I want to grow for the cows plus they provide cover for the bobcats, fox, wild pigs, roadrunners, coyotes, and stray dogs. They are so thick, we had no idea what was going on until I set up a camera at a deer stand,( got 4 last year.) We can only see the cows if they are very close to the house.
So yes, I am trying to get rid of cedars but for now I'll have to settle for just clearing the fenceline, time and energy constraints, but there is a neighbor with a dozer......


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## agmantoo

What is your fertilizer regiment on that beautiful grass?*Every year I distribute chicken litter on just 20% of the pasture area. The only reason for doing 20% is because that is all the litter I can get. I do have a regimen that I follow however. I never put machinery on soil that is too wet as I do not want to contribute to soil compaction. Additionally I do soil testing annually and I keep the soil PH up. Weeds are controlled by keeping the weeds suppressed with the desired forages growing shade and crowding the weeds. Rotational grazing is the key to the quality and quantity of the forages. Rotational grazing minimizes the stress on the desirable plants and allows rapid recovery. IMO, the primary fundamental to good crops and good calves is to never stress them. I buy no commercial fertilizer and I never turn the soil. *

I am hoping you tell me that you are doing that well with natural humus, if so, would you credit the natural fertility of the soil or a program you have in place.
*Initially my farm was very depleted as well as eroded and could hardly provide ground cover from weeds. I had two gullies, each large enough to put an average ranch style house in. It takes me about 3 years to turn land around. During that 3 years I will lime initially attempting to achieve a 5.8 PH or better. If I feed any baled hay during the recovery time frame I will feed on the ground I am rebuilding. If I can locate any additional manure I will spread that on the project land. I plant clovers and other cover crops for year round ground cover that I do not take from the land. I run my bushhog and let the residue decompose. Once I get some topsoil established I work diligently to NOT disturb it. As stated previously this thin covering is where I plant the seed and I want the roots to start going deeper to improve the subsoil area. Once the soil starts to respond it will continually improve as more organic buildup will occur and moisture will be retained. This retained moisture contributes to having green growing forage for a longer duration. At this time my pastures appear as if it is Spring time rather than Fall. I had a visitor today and the appearance of the forage was their main topic. PS...my neighbors are feeding hay now. *

*This photo is current. This is not a normal paddock. Instead it is a lane the cattle use to move from one location to another distant location on the farm. The lane is dual purpose in that I do try to grow something in it for feed also. I do however allow the cattle to graze it short at times. With a lot of foot traffic from the herd as well as wheel traffic as the lane is used for my traveling to various parts of the farm you can see the area remains productive. The lane has never had chicken litter or commercial fertilizer applied, only manure from the herd.*


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## WJMartin

I have been unable to locate any poultry operations to obtain litter and have NO desire to start up my own. Any other suggestions.


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## SteveO

check with the farm extention and the coop they will know if there is somthing around. Plant clover?
Steve


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## Gabriel

WJMartin said:


> I have been unable to locate any poultry operations to obtain litter and have NO desire to start up my own. Any other suggestions.


Don't stress over it. I have none available in my area either, but this year I've seen major improvement through rotation alone. It's slower, but you'll be amazed at what it can do.


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## WJMartin

I have checked with farm extention and feed stores, we no longer have a coop but there are some around in neighboring towns and will check with them. We do have a couple of dairys around, would that manure work? Waiting for soil tests to return so I can form a plan, a real plan to improve my pastures and grow grass.

Agmantoo: when I get my soil tests back and hunt down an airial photo of my place, would you have time to help me lay out fencing? I'm super busy right now so probably two weeks before I have everything together to get to you and then no rush, I've got LOTS of clearing to do before anymore fences can go up.

WJMartin


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## agmantoo

WJMartin
I will review your layout. Realize that it is difficult for me to do the job that I would like to do from a pic but I will share what I know. The final application will have to come from you as you can see the actual place.


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## WJMartin

Dear Agmantoo,
I have a guest bedroom so if you've got some extra time, come on to Oklahoma any time. In the mean time I'll think of your layout as my goal and what I have as reality. I'm sure the two will meet in the future.
I threw out 200# of mixed pasture seeds a few days ago and I'm waiting to see what comes up, didn't have time for prep, got it on just ahead of a good rain. I know I'm late but I thought it was worth a try to get something growing.


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## HDRider

agmantoo said:


> What is your fertilizer regiment on that beautiful grass?*Every year I distribute chicken litter on just 20% of the pasture area. The only reason for doing 20% is because that is all the litter I can get. I do have a regimen that I follow however. I never put machinery on soil that is too wet as I do not want to contribute to soil compaction. Additionally I do soil testing annually and I keep the soil PH up. Weeds are controlled by keeping the weeds suppressed with the desired forages growing shade and crowding the weeds. Rotational grazing is the key to the quality and quantity of the forages. Rotational grazing minimizes the stress on the desirable plants and allows rapid recovery. IMO, the primary fundamental to good crops and good calves is to never stress them. I buy no commercial fertilizer and I never turn the soil. *
> 
> I am hoping you tell me that you are doing that well with natural humus, if so, would you credit the natural fertility of the soil or a program you have in place.
> *Initially my farm was very depleted as well as eroded and could hardly provide ground cover from weeds. I had two gullies, each large enough to put an average ranch style house in. It takes me about 3 years to turn land around. During that 3 years I will lime initially attempting to achieve a 5.8 PH or better. If I feed any baled hay during the recovery time frame I will feed on the ground I am rebuilding. If I can locate any additional manure I will spread that on the project land. I plant clovers and other cover crops for year round ground cover that I do not take from the land. I run my bushhog and let the residue decompose. Once I get some topsoil established I work diligently to NOT disturb it. As stated previously this thin covering is where I plant the seed and I want the roots to start going deeper to improve the subsoil area. Once the soil starts to respond it will continually improve as more organic buildup will occur and moisture will be retained. This retained moisture contributes to having green growing forage for a longer duration. At this time my pastures appear as if it is Spring time rather than Fall. I had a visitor today and the appearance of the forage was their main topic. PS...my neighbors are feeding hay now. *
> 
> *This photo is current. This is not a normal paddock. Instead it is a lane the cattle use to move from one location to another distant location on the farm. The lane is dual purpose in that I do try to grow something in it for feed also. I do however allow the cattle to graze it short at times. With a lot of foot traffic from the herd as well as wheel traffic as the lane is used for my traveling to various parts of the farm you can see the area remains productive. The lane has never had chicken litter or commercial fertilizer applied, only manure from the herd.*



Thanks - Absolutely Beautiful!!


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## Allen W

WJMartin

Check this out.http://www.ok-littermarket.org/


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## ycanchu2

I was wondering where you advertise on this site? can you do it here or do I need to go somewhere else. For example grassfed bulls and heifers.
Thanks


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## Skip

I drive around a lot because of my work. I see alot of brown uncut hay and started wondering is stockpiled hay green? From all of Agman's photos appears so to me. Fields around here that cows are still on have green eaten right down to the earth, the cattle aren't eating the taller brown growths. Does the hay stay green if the seed heads are cut before they form? Confused in zone 3.


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## MarkM

agman,

Do you slow your rotations to increase the rest period as summer wears on and the growth rate of your grasses slows?

Are you working on getting the RRCG established for this purpose so that you can continue your rotations without increasing the rest period?

Will you sow the RRCG evenly throughout your paddocks or will you create paddocks that are primarily used for the summer rotations?

How can you take paddocks out of rotation to stockpile your fescue at the exact time that your grass growth is slowing? Are you really slim on pasture by the time you start portioning out your stockpiled forage?

Thanks,

Mark


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## agmantoo

Regarding your ?'s




MarkM said:


> agman,
> 
> Do you slow your rotations to increase the rest period as summer wears on and the growth rate of your grasses slows?
> *I always feed the tallest forage that I have. I can get into about mid July with the grass that I have kept in a vegetative state by late season clipping of the seedheads. I have sowed the RRCG in the low wetter land that I have in order to have something to graze during the dry hot weather of late July and August. I have to increase the paddock size as the weather of Summer wears on. The rotation periods are daily regardless*
> 
> Will you sow the RRCG evenly throughout your paddocks or will you create paddocks that are primarily used for the summer rotations?
> *No I will not sow RRCG to all paddocks. I follow the RRCG with other forages as I want as many areas as possible to as productive as possible over as many months as possible.*
> How can you take paddocks out of rotation to stockpile your fescue at the exact time that your grass growth is slowing? Are you really slim on pasture by the time you start portioning out your stockpiled forage?
> *My grass is not slowing in September when I start amassing forage for stockpiling. Instead it is beginning to rebound from the hot and usually dry periods of Summer. Typically I isolate a large portion of the farm from being grazed. I move the herd rapidly over the area being grazed. Recently I have been experimenting with sowing seed behind the cattle as they are rotated. I am planting cereal rye, annual rye and fescue (in weak stands). I can get some growth on the warm days up until Chrstmas. I plan on these forages to be available as the stockpiled forage is consumed and the herd exits Winter and before the established forages begin their new growth. *
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark


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## agmantoo

Skip said:


> I drive around a lot because of my work. I see alot of brown uncut hay and started wondering is stockpiled hay green? From all of Agman's photos appears so to me. Fields around here that cows are still on have green eaten right down to the earth, the cattle aren't eating the taller brown growths. Does the hay stay green if the seed heads are cut before they form? Confused in zone 3.


*The main forage I have is fescue grass. It is a cool season grass that grows over many months in zone 7. It will stay green a long time if prevented from making seed heads. With rotational grazing, grass will remain green easier as it is not stressed from being overgrazed. Somewhat like a lawn that is clipped regularly and not overly short. The leaves of grass that remain after clipping aid the recover of the plant. On pastures that are overgrazed the root reserves have to support the plant until the leaves finally grow enough to aid the recovery of the stressed plant. Sometimes the most desirable plants will get grazed into oblivion in a conventional pasture or a rotational pasture that does not get rotated frequently.*


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## WJMartin

AllenW
thanks for the link, I had found the original site but not this updated one. Back in '05 there was a program to help pay for the transport of litter to western OK, that's probably unavailable now. Still waiting for soil tests to come back so I don't know how much I need, it'll probably be more how much I can afford. 

We are in the process of building a new horse shed and clearing a fenceline to fence the ponies off the area I plan to use for stockpile. Then it will be on to clearing to build fences for rotation. Am also trying to research what to plant and where. I think I'll try a tall fescue called MaxQ mixed with medicago, bermudagrass, red river crabgrass, and some type of clover. I think this will work with the bunchgrasses I have, haven't ID it yet but I think it's a type of lovegrass.

Agmantoo or anyone who has done this,
I have a very uneven area, it sets on top of a hill, 2 or 3 acres. It has a drop off of about a foot in a horseshoe shape and some depressions that hold water, it is mostly bermudagrass. I think we need to get this area leveled up as much as possible as it is some of the most productive. How should I go about this? I have a plow, disc, harrow, box blade, frontend loader and a husband who knows how to use them and a tractor that runs. Also, when would be the best time to do this?
I'm really hesitant to tear up the ground, the weather guys say we will probably be in a drought situation for at least one more year. Would bringing in fill dirt and leveling that up work better?

Thanks, WJMartin


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## Allen W

WJMartin

Get your grass identified if it is actually weeping love grass it needs to be eradicated before you do any thing else. http://www.noble.org/WebApps/PlantImageGallery/Plant.aspx?PlantID=115&IndexType=CommonName&PlantMainName=Lovegrass,Weeping&PlantTypeID=2 This is a picture, from the Noble Foundation, of what I'm talking about.

If you have bermuda grass growing on top of the hill why mess with it. Unless water is covering most of it I would leave it alone. 

What is your predominate soil type? Can you narow down where you are at? Just which side of OKC would help. Things vary in this state so much.

On your cedars if you can live with the stumps find some on with a saw to cut them at ground level. Stay away from the pincher type they can leave nasty splinters sticking up.


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## ramiller5675

WJMArtin,

I live in OK and have some lovegrass scattered around the farm. Cattle will graze it just fine (it does need to be managed), I don't see why you would want to get rid of it to plant something else. One of the keys to being a low input producer (which is an important part of this thread's subject matter as I see it) is to use what you have to produce a calf for less expense. Take that lovegrass and clip it, graze it, fertilize it, or burn it to produce forage instead of wasting time and money planting something else right off the bat. 

Or, add some bermuda sprigs to your stand of love grass by waiting until next spring and running a disc or chisel over your bermuda to smooth it out and then taking some of the dug up roots to plant into your lovegrass area. Spend money on fertilizer for the grass that you have instead of buying seed. 

There is some info about managing and/or establishing a bermuda-love grass mixed pasture at:

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Forage/BermudaandWLovegrass/index.html


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## WJMartin

Thanks for the input. We have not been good forage managers for the last 20 years, we had a neighbor who would cut the hay field on shares, its a lovegrass/bermuda mix that the cattle and horses eat well and maintain good condition, so I won't kill it out but I do see alot of open ground and some erosion starting so I'm really looking for how to overseed and what to overseed, I'm checking out the link asap. At this time I only have warm season grasses so I'm trying to decide what to overseed with for cool season grazing, thinking of trying the MaxQ fescue.

I'm still waiting for my soil test to return but on the top of the east hill it is clay, clay, clay and some sandstone outcropings, some loam as you come down hill to the tree line which covers the bottom creek area and then back up the top of the next hill it becomes sandy, I'm hoping that it is sandy loam. 

Using the harrow to plant sprigs works well, DH sprigged my garden for me that way.


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## agmantoo

*Agmantoo or anyone who has done this,
I have a very uneven area, it sets on top of a hill, 2 or 3 acres. It has a drop off of about a foot in a horseshoe shape and some depressions that hold water, it is mostly bermudagrass. I think we need to get this area leveled up as much as possible as it is some of the most productive. How should I go about this? I have a plow, disc, harrow, box blade, frontend loader and a husband who knows how to use them and a tractor that runs. Also, when would be the best time to do this?
I'm really hesitant to tear up the ground, the weather guys say we will probably be in a drought situation for at least one more year. Would bringing in fill dirt and leveling that up work better?*

Fall around here is the best time to reestablish pasture plants around here. Summer drought is high risk and the plant roots tend to die from not getting established.
On hills that tend to erode the best solution that I have found is to work the area over time. Start at the top of the hill and follow the contour. Then work your way to the bottom of the hill doing strips. Get the first strip reestablished then plant the next one and get it established. Repeat this until the entire hillside is planted and producing. Where the top soil is minimal I like to not disturb the soil any more than possible. Trying daming the washes and do a some leveling as desired. With each new planting try to plant a nurse crop to support the desired forage plants survival. Cereal rye and pearl millet are two of my favorite nurse plants.


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## WJMartin

Thanks agmantoo, just the kind of info I was hoping for.


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## agmantoo

You may want to touch base with folks in your area to get some other opinions


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## WJMartin

I have an appointment with the soil conservation on Monday to help with layout and an overall plan.


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## agmantoo

I mentally set Dec 15th as the beginning date when I start feeding the forage I have stockpiled to get me through Winter even though the Winter solstice has not arrived. I took this pic yesterday to share what the herd looks like as they start the regimen. My bull has finally adjusted to eating and surviving off the fescue forage. Over the last few months he has actually put on a little weight. Most of the cows are in not less than body condition score 5 or better. I do have a few first calve heifers, with calves, that are holding their weight but I would like to see them heavier. All in all I am about as comfortable as I get with the forage situation. As you can see from the pic the grass has been impacted by the cold weather we had about 10 days ago. Some clover does remain but will likely be gone with the next cold spell.


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## SteveO

Nice forage as usual agman. We are 600 mile west and most of our grass has been killed by the frost already. Got to get my clover ordered. They frost seed in Feb out here.
It sure looks like your murry grey has been hard at work. has the lighter skin tone started to make a difference at the sale barn.
I did buy those cattle and will be taking then to be AIed this week more news in a week or so. I just couldn't resist

Steve


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## Karin L

Just a little note here, from a cattle magazine (Canadian Cattlemen) I was reading.

Four grazing concepts that are needed in sustainable management of a pasture:

Grazing Period
Rest Period
Stocking Density (not the same as Stocking Rate)
Animal Impact

From a few articles by Steve Kenyon, rancher of Greener Pastures Ltd. who does custom grazing and follows MIG practices on his and his clients' land bases.


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## MarkM

I can't post pics yet, so here is my question.

When grazing the stockpiled fescue, how hard should I graze it. I don't have enough animals at this time to cover all my farm, so proper rationing according to total available is not an issue this winter.

Assuming that I am trying to learn how many days worth I have stockpiled, and how tight I can graze them, how low should I graze the fescue?


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## agmantoo

MarkM
I believe that the stockpiled forage main function is obviously to provide cheap and adequate Winter grazing. Based on what the forage is other things can be accomplished at the same time. The residue will give ground cover and aid in reducing erosion. Additionally that residue can boost the first growth as Winter starts to break. Any thatch that existed will add humus to the soil as it decomposes. Much of this will depend on what you are growing for stockpiling and needs to be addressed based on the particular crop. Fescue is IMO the best grass provided it will grow in ones location.

To attempt to ascertain how many days worth you stockpiled forage you have amassed you need to spend some time with the cattle. Using polywire create a paddock of size that you think the herd will consume in roughly 45 minutes. Hold the herd off that paddock over night and then give them access to the paddock the next morning. When the 45 minutes is up observe the amount of grass remaining. If the area is totally grazed with only stubble and thatch remaining then the area was too small. If the area has grass that is longer than 2 to 3 inches remaining then you gave them too much. Adjust the size of the area to where the cattle after the 45 minute period have the 2 to 3 inch height left. Now double the area grazed. This should be approximately the size of the area allocated for each days grazing. Observe the cattle when you move them. If they are bawling or anxious then they need the area increased. If they are calm and patiently waiting on the move things are correct. I do not know how frequently you are moving the cattle but the longer between moves the more area you will need to allocate to compensate for manure damaged grass resulting in added waste. Daily moving will reduce such waste.


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## MarkM

Agman,

We are moving daily. Again, we have so few animals that having enough fescue stockpiled is not an issue. However, I need to figure this out for next winter.

Thanks for the "procedure" to determine the amount needed. I will try that this weekend.


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## MarkM

Agman,

In trying to figure the area I need to stockpile for next winter, I am not familiar with how many days to use as my non-growing season. I am in zone 7, like you.

When do you "typically" move into your stockpiled area and when do you "typically" start using new growth when the growing season starts. I know that there are many variables involved, but I need some number to do my estimations with until I have some experience on my farm.

My warm season grass is mostly bermuda.


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## agmantoo

MarkM said:


> Agman,
> 
> In trying to figure the area I need to stockpile for next winter, I am not familiar with how many days to use as my non-growing season. I am in zone 7, like you.*Before going year round on grass harvested by the cattle I calculated that I needed hay for roughly 120 days. As I got more into rotational grazing I saw that my pastures were becoming more productive and that I was getting further into Winter with my grazing and I was coming out of Winter earlier as the paddocks were less dormant. This reduced my need for hay to approximately 90 days. Based on the feed requirements during different periods of the year and the growth of the forage to match those needs I would be feeding any where from a low of .4 acres to a high of 1 acre per day for my entire herd. To get through the 90 day stockpile feeding period I learned that I needed to set aside ~50% of my grazing acreage. Usually around Sept 15, depending on moisture, I start amassing forage. I closely manage the herd on the remaining pasture and let the area reserved for stocking grow. Somewhere between the 15th of Dec to the 15th of Jan I will start grazing the stockpiled forage. I am also attempting to get as much regrowth on the grazed non stockpiled as possible. I like to have that as a cushion. Somewhere around the end of Feb to the middle of March I should have new grass emerging and ending the grazing of the stockpiled feed. *
> 
> When do you "typically" move into your stockpiled area and when do you "typically" start using new growth when the growing season starts. I know that there are many variables involved, but I need some number to do my estimations with until I have some experience on my farm.
> 
> My warm season grass is mostly bermuda.


*You may need to add some rye grass to the bermuda to enhance your late season and early Spring grazing. You will have to get someone more familiar with this practice to make recommendations*


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## Skip

Agman thank you for your description of stockpiled grass. I came across this article meanwhile looking for appropriate grasses for my area. Leaving the backgate open during the summer would not be a good idea regarding rotational grazing, but could there be a benefit and what so during the use of stockpiled hay?
Quoted from article: "A back fence was not used, so the area accessible to the cows increased over time as the lead fence was moved down the field."
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/beef/facts/info_christmasgrazing.htm


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## agmantoo

Skip
Thanks for sharing the article. The article was interesting and I enjoyed reading it. i disagree with leaving the back door open in the area where I live. We do not get a lot of ground freezing and the additional movement of the cattle having the opportunity to back graze compacts soil and hurts the recovery of the grass in early Spring. The article seems to concentrate on the time and difficulty for frequent movements of the paddocks. Feeding hay is time consuming compared to what I do. I can relocate my whole herd in less than 15 minutes. I saw in the pic that all 4 side of the fence was polywire. If 2 permanent strands were erected then only 2 polywire runs were made that would cut the effort in half. My method is far more efficient. Should the information gathered comparing different intervals of moving the animals would take into consideration conserving forage, the outcome IMO would be different. Frequent grazings conserve forage. It reduces the manuring of edible forage and trampling of uneaten forage is minimized.


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## Gabriel

As Agman said, it's simply not that time consuming to move them, if you have just two hot wires. 

Also, you get a better distribution of the manure if you keep up a back fence. 

Pugging isn't a serious problem if it's short term and you have good grass to begin with. I was seriously worried last spring, but continued with the daily moves and by mid summer couldn't have found the pugged spots if I hadn't known where to look. As long as you don't let them continue to walk over it for long periods, I don't find it's a problem.


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## SCRancher

I agree with agman on the amount of time if you have only the front and rear wire to manage. It takes me less time to move the wires then it did to unroll a bale of hay and move a single wire when I was feeding hay during December. I guess if you were using a hay ring and a tractor that would take me around the same amount of time.

In any case it appears that stockpiling can be accomplished in more northern climates with some success.


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## Skip

I am very excited for summer to come. It will be my first year grazing, saving money on bringing in hay, plus the excitement of building a pasture. I will be grazing the three dexters, plus hoping to add three ewes (looking at hair sheep) and two feeder pigs.

I plan to start with quarter acre sections using 42" height electrostop fencing.

I have no idea how to identify the grass that is growing there now, I've tried through google images. I will work on that over the summer and finding a good seed source for other varieties to test. In one post way back in the thread I believe it was Agman who had suggested to go first with what grows naturally, looking at roadside grasses etc. Goldenrod is a weed often seen growing in pastures here and happily this is not an issue and my job will be to ensure it does not start.

Another link with more information for northeners. I think up here with more identifiable seasons we may need different varities of grasses for the differences. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/beef/facts/99-009.htm#Forage


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## Skip

"I think up here with more identifiable seasons we may need different varities of grasses for the differences." What I meant by this is different sections of pastures with differnt grasses for the different seasons. Or would a mixed variety of grasses be viable in the same pasture? I'm thinking one will overtake another or is it possible with the changing seasons the different grasses will "pop" back up??


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## SCRancher

Skip - I have common Bermuda that volunteered in my fescue - I'm thinking I"m glad it did because when the fescue is dormant the Bermuda is growing like gang busters and the cows simply switch what they are eating.

Is it recommended? No idea - I'm not sure I would have had this issue start had my fescue been thicker and better fertilized but I was converting from an abused cotton field to pasture. I had to add 2 tons of lime per acre just to bring the PH up to where it should be.


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## Gabriel

Skip, unless you have a lot of bare spots in the pasture, I'd pass on buying and spreading seed. The money will be better spent on fencing materials and time spent to manage the grazing properly. You'll be amazed at what lies dormant in the seed bank, just waiting for the right conditions to sprout.


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## SteveO

Although I am just starting out with the rotational grazing and cattle. I tried the open back door to make sure the cattle were getting all they needed in field 1. The result was not good ruts and carved paths and grass short here and long there. 
Today infact I put out the back door as they were just moved to my second field. They have access to yesterday and todays allotment. But not the 3 days earlier so we will see what develops.
I still do not have a feel either as to how much area to give them. My grass is frost bitten so I am not sure if they are to picky and I am a softly or what. I will try to post some pictures for a review by the experts
Steve


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## agmantoo

SteveO

Frost bitten fescue remains suitable forage for beef cattle. Frost bitten stockpiled fescue is better feed than fescue hay. The cattle did not like coming off the clover and grass mix at my place but now they just as anxiously move to the grass alone.

SteveO, is there any clean grass left when you move them? Are the cattle bawling when you arrive to make a move? They should be patiently waiting on you. Let your cattle tell you if they are getting adequate feed.


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## SteveO

Well it finally stopped snowing. Yes snow I moved from MA to gett away from that stuff.
Anyway here are the pictures of the pasture. Ungrazed 1 day and 2 day.
Let me know what you think http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/mrsoz11/?albumview=slideshow
Steve


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## agmantoo

SteveO

The forage looks great and would be the envy of anyone needing to feed their stock. 

You are not getting the grass grazed off enough IMO. If you are not careful you are going to end the Winter with too much thatch remaining as new growth attempts to emerge. Honestly I had rather have the area over grazed instead of under grazed in early Spring. Thatch is an issue that I have an issue dealing with. It took me several years to realize its negative impact.


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## SteveO

Thanks for the complement. But it should be aimed at you. The area you saw was limed and not bailed for a year, as you suggested. i have clover on the standby for the end of Feb for all the fields and fescue for poor areas and the 3rd field which I have not got fenced yet. I am giving them about 2000sf per cow per day. i will change that to every 3-4 days and take a picture so you can review the results.
I am liking the rotational grazing I can see the first field coming back already after not being grazed for 10+ yrs. It should be ready for draging this week if the weather holds. I just got my drag from the coop it is inly 6 ft wide but is designed for a ATV to pull. I plan on pulling it with the mule. I will let you know how that goes.
Thanks
Utopia Farm
TN


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## agmantoo

Here is a pic taken today of an area I mismanaged and let thatch accumulate. I am now attempting to get it under control. As you can see the herd is taking the growth to near ground level. I want the thatch incorporated into the top soil to where it will decompose.


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## SteveO

Question Agman As I have the same patchyness shall we say. Are you suggesting I follow the same procedure?
As it is I still should have enough grass to last until March. Without touching field 3 I believe
Steve


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## agmantoo

SteveO

I intend to get rid of the thatch and to reseed the areas that have not reestablished since the drought of 2007/2008. I now have a small used no till drill that I will use in late Feb. Having too strong clover stands and clover growth will IMO be a challenge with getting the fescue fully populated over the farm again. I do not want to burn the clover down with herbicide.


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## MarkM

agman,

Please describe your "mismanagement" that alowed the accumulation of thatch.

Do the cattle consume the thatch and thereby "convert" it to topsoil or is it hoofed into the ground to accomplish this?

Do you increase your stocking density when dealing with these thatched areas?


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## agmantoo

MarkM said:


> agman,
> 
> Please describe your "mismanagement" that alowed the accumulation of thatch.*I thought that I was going to be short on forage as we were experiencing dry weather. To stretch what growth I had I left some only seedhead clipped fescue to go dormant in a very tall state. When it did rain late in the recovery stage the new growth was choked by this old growth which tended to remain stagnant. This created dead and dying leaves near the ground*
> 
> Do the cattle consume the thatch and thereby "convert" it to topsoil or is it hoofed into the ground to accomplish this?
> *The cattle will eat a little of the thatch but the hoof action does more for getting rid of it by both breaking it up and forcing the material to make ground contact encouraging rot.*
> Do you increase your stocking density when dealing with these thatched areas?


*I hold the stocking density rather constant but I will permit back grazing to increase the hoof traffic.
*


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## agmantoo

double post


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## SteveO

So in my situation where I have basically no clover I should overseed with clover in Feb and wait to see what develops from that? Then maybe down the road overgraze and clean things up?
We have had a mild winter so this may be the easiest winter ever to graze through. But my friend that sells hay already sold out last month. In this area rotation grazing is moving your animal from field to field every month or so.
Thanks again
Steve


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## agmantoo

SteveO

Yes you need to plant clover. Your first year stand may not be what you expect but over time you will get clover established. Just broadcast at a modest rate per acre (seed are usually expensive) about 2 weeks before the date of the last heavy frost in your location. You can also toss a handful of clover seed into your mineral feeder each time you go by. Any of the Ladino types or derived clovers work here. Order seed early because sometimes they are in short supply. Since you have no clovers I would inoculate.


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## avrugu

Incredible source of information here. Thanks to all, especially agman.

I'm fortunate to be on a some land that's been in the family for 5 generations but hasn't been farmed since the 70's and I plan to start raising beef with this method. 

I read all posts up to 200 or so then skipped ahead so don't know (agmantoo) if you're still willing to advice newcomers on laying out paddocks and water issues etc but if you are, I'd love some advice.


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## WJMartin

Agman,
I finally got pics together, pm me with address and I can send to you.
Thanks for all the help and advice.
We won't be able to go full steam ahead until fall because DH just bought a bobcat w/tree cutter, (he wanted a bigger one than the tractor could handle) and I have given him until fall to tear things up without a divorce. So that gives me time to work on fencing and water.
Will try to post pic on here but it will have to wait until oldest son comes back to help me find where he hid the file.


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## Gabriel

avrugu said:


> Incredible source of information here. Thanks to all, especially agman.
> 
> I'm fortunate to be on a some land that's been in the family for 5 generations but hasn't been farmed since the 70's and I plan to start raising beef with this method.
> 
> I read all posts up to 200 or so then skipped ahead so don't know (agmantoo) if you're still willing to advice newcomers on laying out paddocks and water issues etc but if you are, I'd love some advice.


Welcome to the site! 

I'm sure agman is just busy, he's never minded helping anyone else. But if you'd like to post a drawing/photo of your property, I, and no doubt others, would be happy to start the idea ball rolling.


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## avrugu

Thanks Gabriel. I went back to reading and found an answer to the pasture layout I think. I might have been over thinking it. 

For now I have permission to use this triangle lot. It's about 3 acres. The blue line is a brook. The dotted red line I'm thinking will be a ten foot or so water lane with a trough in the middle. I'll do the PVC pole line lift for 'gates' to access to water lane. (copywrite agman) 

I have to fence the perimeter. I'm not sure the number of wires to use. I have checked out sites of several companies that people have recommended in the thread and there's no set number. I'm thinking 4

I haven't figured out the amount of cow calf pairs this land will support. I realize a soil sample is needed. 

The meadow to the south of my house there is low and wet so I figure this could be used for winter reserve after the cows have learned to respect the simpler temporary fence. Don't think it would be worth the expense of fencing in this small area permanently. 

There are about 14 acres of meadow up the farm road a bit that I can most likely expand into at least part of in the future. 

The fields have been hayed the past 3 years and just bush hogged yearly (for the most part) for years to keep them open.


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## WJMartin

Let's see if this will post.

The black lines are perimeter fence in place
red - poly hot wire
white dots - trees removed
gray broken lines - could put hot wire here, or where perimeter fence will be placed in future
O - orchard, H - house, B - barn , W -well

The area fenced off to the right was the old pony pen and the matching area on the left comprised the hayfield that the neighbor baled around 9 tons of hay off of each year.

As you can see, I have plenty of trees, the thick area is a creek that only runs in winter, it has very steep sides. 

The open area at the top is the 3 -4 acre pond we drained because the silt from the airport made it a swamp, I could use it in summer, maybe, concerned about the cattle getting stuck in boggy spots so it isn't being considered for pasture at this time. 

Where the red line meets the black at the bottom is a gate that opens to the main road. We would like to keep a lane there that runs from the road to our driveway so equipment could easily be brought in or out. We have used this escape route when wildfires were close about 11 years ago.

Would appreciate input from anyone on setting up IMG plan.


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## Gabriel

WJMartin said:


> Would appreciate input from anyone on setting up IMG plan.


How many acres is that? Do you know (roughly) the dimensions? I ask because with my current setup, I have to run the cattle in long narrow strips, so narrow in fact, that I often have to give more daily allotment than I'd like because they need room to pass each other! I'd put in more permanent fence, but I get a lease on this place one year at a time. The longer the strip, the more they trample as they walk it looking for the tastiest food. Square allotments would remedy that, somewhat.


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## WJMartin

The large enclosed area is approx 850' X 700' the small area is 150' X 700', when the trees are cleared in the small area is will be roughly 500' X 700'.
If it makes any difference the old pond sits at the lowest point with the bottom of the pic is actually the top of a rolling hill.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin
Gabriel
Avrugu

I am back!

I will answer each of you in more detail as time permits.

WJMartin
I am of the opinion that you need to make at your red line on the largest section next to the driveway a permanent perimeter wire at your earliest convenience. Then parallel to this permanent fence erect a permanent single strand fence creating a lane 20 feet wide and the length of the new permanent driveway fence. I would think from my perspective that the main field needs to have permanent parallel single wire partitions running from the driveway road to the house to the bottom of the page. As I read from your description these partition wires will be running uphill from the driveway. This will allow the hill to be worked safer just by going up and down hill. The hill will work when weather is wet as it will be dryer creating less pugging. This layout should create easy access to the well and to the barn. If need be I will make you a sketch. However, I think if you get started as I suggested you will be the most qualified person to finish the layout since you will be the expert at your location.

Gabriel

With your cramped narrow allocated strips your animals are grazing, several options seem to exist. If you are running a polywire to prevent back grazing let the cattle have access to the area they grazed for 3 to 4 days and only allocate ahead of them what you want them to eat. You could also give them a wider strip strip and run a polywire across in front of them and just move the cross wire to give access to new grass. Another suggestion is instead of making narrow parallel paddocks with the polywire, run the partitioning polywire diagonally creating triangles.

Avrugu,
I am uncertain where you stand with your request. If you need my assistance please just restate your needs. Welcome to the site.


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## WJMartin

Agman, Thank you.
I m still muddy on one issue, how will I access water? I agree that up and down the hill is safer and better I'm just muddy on how to access the water if my paddocks are parrallel to the lane. I can put out some poly tanks, I already have a 6' stock tank at the top that I used for the ponies bbut I won't be able to move it often.
Yes, please post a sketch. This issue is why I asked for help, haven't been able to understand how to get the cows watered without moving them back and forth, elaborate fencing or moving water tanks constantly.


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## lakeportfarms

Gabriel said:


> How many acres is that? Do you know (roughly) the dimensions? I ask because with my current setup, I have to run the cattle in long narrow strips, so narrow in fact, that I often have to give more daily allotment than I'd like because they need room to pass each other! I'd put in more permanent fence, but I get a lease on this place one year at a time. The longer the strip, the more they trample as they walk it looking for the tastiest food. Square allotments would remedy that, somewhat.


Gabriel,

I don't know how much time you can allocate to moving the cattle, but even though we have a lot of options in how we manage the pasture we have chosen to run long narrow strips and move them daily (actually twice a day). We leave a couple of days of backgrazing so that it gives them more room to move. With narrow enough sections, they don't trample the new forage and once eaten they tend to loiter in the backgrazed area trampling that grass and spreading their manure there. When we have time, we'll set up two or three days in advance so the move to a new strip can be made in a matter of minutes. Moving water and mineral is hardest part. They gain exceptionally well because they're not wandering around, they just go to the strip of longer fresh grass and eat.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

Where exactly is the water tank? I saw the well but did I overlook the water tank? My thinking is that the lane to the paddocks would the parallel to the house driveway and the paddocks would be perpendicular to the driveway/lane.


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## ramiller5675

WJMartin said:


> I m still muddy on one issue, how will I access water? I agree that up and down the hill is safer and better I'm just muddy on how to access the water if my paddocks are parrallel to the lane. I can put out some poly tanks, I already have a 6' stock tank at the top that I used for the ponies bbut I won't be able to move it often.
> Yes, please post a sketch. This issue is why I asked for help, haven't been able to understand how to get the cows watered without moving them back and forth, elaborate fencing or moving water tanks constantly.


At first it can be difficult to visualize how this form of MiG is setup.

The way I understand it, imagine you have an area (i.e. 660' wide by 660' long) with a perimeter fence around it.

Now run two parallel wires 20' apart down the middle so that you have two 320'x660' areas (one area to the right and one area to the left of your lane) separated in the middle by a 20'x660' lane. 

Place a watering point in the middle of that lane (at the 330' mark in your 660' long lane).

Your grazing paddocks will be on each side of the lane, so you will start on the end of the right 320'x660' area by running temporary back fence across the lane to the left side of the lane, and running a temporary front fence to the right side wire of the lane, along with a temporary fence on the other side of the watering point (so your cattle can't get to the area of the lane past the watering point). And, the right hand side lane wire will be lifted with a pvc pole to allow access from the paddock to the lane.

For the next grazing period you simply move the wires down the lane.

I just picked arbitrary numbers to more easily explain the concept (there are ideal numbers for distance to water, width and length of paddocks, etc.), but if you draw it out on paper it might make more sense. 

Once you understand the details of laying it out on a square area, you should be able to apply it to other areas.


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## WJMartin

I didn't mark the water tanks because I felt like they are moveable so I should move them where they would be most useable. I have one at each end of where the lane will be, I have hoses that run to them from the well, one is 6' round and the other 6' X 3' oval.


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## avrugu

Thanks for the welcome agman

I'm thinking I should read up some more of the thread so I dont crowd it up with things that have been gone over


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

How many head do you anticipate running when all the pasture area is perimeter fenced?


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## WJMartin

I currently have 2 cow/calf, 1 open heifer who may or may not be here by fall and 1 steer soon headed for freezer camp. 6
By fall, 2 yearlings, 2 cow/calf 6, If heifer gets bred 1 more cow/calf 8
I would like to get grass production up so I can support a herd of 12-14.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

Here is a rough layout to get you started. These are suggestions and apply only to the 850' by 700' area for the paddocks. I also did what I thought would be the future permanent perimeter fence in the lower portion. The red markings are for the perimeter fence. The horizontal black strip adjacent to the drive is the suggested lane and a permanent single strand of high tensile should suffice. The posts for the permanent single strand lane at the driveway end should also function to hold the permanent partition fences separating the paddocks. At the bottom of the page, the permanent perimeter fence posts should serve dual purpose and hold the end of the permanent partition single strand fences. The lane should be roughly 20 feet in width and the paddocks width is roughly 100+. You can adjust this to fit the terrain. I extended the lane to get you to the barn area. You will use polywire to cross fence and to size the allocated grazing area. I believe this will feed your current animals and you can expand the pasture area as needed and size the paddocks to meet your needs and location. Keeping the travel to less than 800 feet to access is desirable but not chiseled in concrete. I believe this to be an economical and efficient layout that should work for you.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

Do you know the rule of thumb for the carrying capacity of pasture at your location?


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## avrugu

Well, I've organized my thoughts and have some questions. I still haven't gotten through the whole thread. It's huge and I confess I skipped around a little so sorry if you've answered these questions a bunch already. Did gapeach ever get the farm switched over to MIRG, by the way? Never got to that part ha

*Fence:* 
Not sure about which PSI or breaking strength.
Also, number of strands to run for perimeter.
Also could use some direction or recommendations on the charging unit. It will be solar.

*Water:*
I was thinking I'd pump from brook rather than leave access to it to keep the fecal matter out. It does dry up some times but I have a 90 GPM well at the house for the rare times it does.

I would like a permanent freeze proof system eventually but might be a couple years before being able to bury pipe. Could use advice on which system. There are just too many choices. 

For now should I just get an inexpensive trash pump and a water trough from Tractor Supply? What do I do in winter? Get water trough big enough to last a week so I dont have to drain the lines so frequently and get a solar-run heating unit ? 

I could leave a lane access to brook. Maybe do that just in winter to minimize waste in water? 

*Shelter:*
I know agman, you are down south so maybe someone else might answer. I'm thinking of building a simple three sided shed roofed building. Is this adequate in the deep winter? Or should I make it so that I can enclose them right in at times? 

How does shelter work with rotational grazing? Are you guys putting them out to pasture in morning and bringing them back at night? 

*Grazing Area*:
I've read agman say they should have access to an area that they eat for 45 minutes, two times a day. How does that work, are you putting them out to pasture twice a day? 

*Winter Reserve:*
Again a colder climate question. How late into year are people grazing in zone 5? What amount of hay should I expect to have on hand or purchase? 

*Cows/ calfs:*
What to get (lol I'm new obv). Should I get say four calves and keep two to get breed at 24 months and butcher the other two for some income? Or a couple of already bred cows?


I found another satellite pic online of the area in winter. i think it's closer to 4 acres. What do you think of my water lane strip idea I posted earlier? I'll not mark this one up in case anyone has ideas and wants to do it. 

Oh, and I'm doing this to supplement income, to eat hormone free/humanely treated food, good for my kid to see/learn, and it's something I've always wanted to do. Like I said earlier, there is another 16 acres of pasture on the farm I would like to expand into eventually and or convert some wood lot to pasture. 

Thank you in advance.


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## WJMartin

Agman
Thanks for the layout. I had not considered this but I think it is very workable and economical. I'm still a bit muddy on how to access water but I'll continue to do some research and see if I can come up with an idea that appeals to me. 
It's been awhile since I read through the beginning of this thread, seems like you talk alot about watering in the very beginning, I'll try to find the time to go back and reread.
I do not know the rule of thumb for carrying capacity, I've been told from 3 acres per animal to 15 acres. There are so many different soil types and forage types that it is really difficult to give an average.
I have a mix of bermuda and native lovegrass or bluestem. I'm planning to add clover, crabgrass and bermuda on this pasture. The last 10 years the neighbor has baled an average of 9 tons from the most open area of the pasture, just one cutting per year. I know I've seen a formula somewhere on how to figure the carring capacity from the hay harvest but can't remember it right now. (Had all 6 grands and their parents over for supper!)

ramiller, 
Thanks for the explanation, I could use that type of setup if I put in an extra lane. Still researching.


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## Gabriel

avrugu said:


> Well, I've organized my thoughts and have some questions. I still haven't gotten through the whole thread. It's huge and I confess I skipped around a little so sorry if you've answered these questions a bunch already.


Sorry to miss answering you both, but I lost the internet connection for several days and it appears you got taken care of. 



avrugu said:


> Did gapeach ever get the farm switched over to MIRG, by the way? Never got to that part haha.


At least part of the way, yes. 



avrugu said:


> *Fence:*
> Not sure about which PSI or breaking strength.


IIRC, 180,000 psi. 



> Also, number of strands to run for perimeter.


Depends. I have sections with 3 (top one a ground) and others with 2 (both hot), but if I was next to the neighbors corn field or a road, I'd probably go with 4.



> *Shelter:*
> I know agman, you are down south so maybe someone else might answer. I'm thinking of building a simple three sided shed roofed building. Is this adequate in the deep winter? Or should I make it so that I can enclose them right in at times?


3 sides should be fine, I would NOT enclose them completely, lack of air flow can lead to health troubles. 



> How does shelter work with rotational grazing? Are you guys putting them out to pasture in morning and bringing them back at night?


They have access to a small section of woods with every move. Here in TN, they care more about shade in the summer than any other sort of weather stress. 



> *Grazing Area*:
> I've read agman say they should have access to an area that they eat for 45 minutes, two times a day. How does that work, are you putting them out to pasture twice a day?


No, that's simply one method to determine how much they need for a 24 hour allotment. 



> *Winter Reserve:*
> Again a colder climate question. How late into year are people grazing in zone 5? What amount of hay should I expect to have on hand or purchase?


I'm on the Pharo Cattle email list and there are people in Canada that graze year 'round. The limiting factor seems to be huge snowfalls and wet weather that causes the snow to crust. You can generally calculate on using 2.5% body weight per day in hay. Year 'round grazing will almost surely not happen the first year unless you're very understocked, the land will not be good enough and your skill will not be high enough. 


> *Cows/ calfs:*
> What to get (lol I'm new obv). Should I get say four calves and keep two to get breed at 24 months and butcher the other two for some income? Or a couple of already bred cows?


Kind of depends on your pocketbook. They should be able to breed earlier than 24 mo's. I favor small framed English breeds. Small (1000Lbs) cows are more efficient than large ones, don't worry about the production rate per animal, think in terms of production rate per acre. You should look at the current prices cattle are going for before planning to far ahead.


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## agmantoo

I believe you got most of your questions answered. With the limited number of cattle just use the well water. The animals will appreciate good water. My cattle will walk a long distance to get well water over stream water. 
You need to do some more research on cattle. I do not believe that you will have the carrying capacity for the amount of cattle you want to have. With your buying Winter hay you may be able to have two brood cows of modest size, their two current calves and two calves that are yearlings. This will let you market two animals at the end of the second year and each year there after. Stating things differently...Your production if your raise the stock will be 2 per year after the end of the second year. If you buy calves then you could increase the marketable number.


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## avrugu

Thanks Gabriel. 

I have read about the smaller framed cows being better suited for this method. Like agmantoo, I'm leaning toward black angus because they have such strong marketing I figure it will be a plus at sale time. I was wondering how someone with experience would go about starting a heard. Of course money is an issue. I may only be able to get it fenced this year and cows next unless I maybe pre-sell halves or something. Thats a whole other issue, seems to be a big variance in prices people get around here (CT). 

As far as shelter, I'm thinking the water access lane strip running the whole west side (as I marked on that other pic) with the shelter kind of nestled in the pines there would work nicely. 

It's a matter of figuring out the amount of cows the area can sustain I guess.


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## avrugu

I was writing that last post as you replied agman, thanks for responding. 

I'm not really clear on what you mean. 

In spring I buy two brood cows (good mothers/easy birthers) that have (and come with) a one year old _and_ a newborn calf? 

Then it would be the _second_ fall that the yearlings would be ready to slaughter? 

And of course get the two original mothers AI to produce each spring?


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## Karin L

avrugu said:


> I was writing that last post as you replied agman, thanks for responding.
> 
> I'm not really clear on what you mean.
> 
> In spring I buy two brood cows (good mothers/easy birthers) that have (and come with) a one year old _and_ a newborn calf?
> 
> Then it would be the _second_ fall that the yearlings would be ready to slaughter?
> 
> And of course get the two original mothers AI to produce each spring?


I don't think that's what Agman means. He probably means to purchase a bred cow with calf at side (3-in-1 or 3-fers), and the calf doesn't have to be a newborn, along with two yearlings that are ones that do not come with the cow and calf, but are rather sold separately. The yearlings can be the same breed or composite as the 3-fers, but 99% of the time will not be the cows' offspring.

That means that the yearlings would be ready for slaughter the following autumn because by that time they'd be between 24 to 30 months of age, which is optimum to slaughter a "grass-fed" steer or heifer.

AI is best for the two dams, yes, especially since having a bull is not the best if you only have two cows to breed.

Don't forget timing when to wean the calves either.


----------



## Karin L

avrugu said:


> Thanks Gabriel.
> 
> I have read about the smaller framed cows being better suited for this method. Like agmantoo, I'm leaning toward black angus because they have such strong marketing I figure it will be a plus at sale time.


Have you considered the risk of raising Angus cattle? Yes Angus is strong in marketing but that really shouldn't be the only reason for raising this breed. I don't mean to be bashing the breed, but hear me out. By "risk" I'm saying that there's a chance that you may end up with a couple of cows that are over protective at calving, not docile and even potentially not what you're looking for as far as calving ease ad. There are so many of these cattle around that it can get to be a real crap-shoot in choosing what's best for you, no matter if you're buying through the salebarn (least recommended place to buy from) or dispersal sales. You've got to be REALLY careful in choosing the right cattle for you.

Agmantoo doesn't raise purebred Angus cattle, he's got a herd mixed with Murray Grey and Angus, and I'll bet it's the MG bull that adds to the docility in the heifers he decides to retain, not the Angus cows.

If I were you I'd avoid Angus cattle and go for something more known for docility, like Galloway, Highland, Red Poll or Hereford. 

Now, what do you mean by "marketing"? Are you hoping to sell some beef halves to neighbors and friends, or what? You can market your beef from any breed, because really any breed that is great on grass (like those listed above) will often have beef that is just as good if not better than Angus. Angus ain't everything, you know. 



> I was wondering how someone with experience would go about starting a heard. Of course money is an issue. I may only be able to get it fenced this year and cows next unless I maybe pre-sell halves or something. Thats a whole other issue, seems to be a big variance in prices people get around here (CT).
> 
> As far as shelter, I'm thinking the water access lane strip running the whole west side (as I marked on that other pic) with the shelter kind of nestled in the pines there would work nicely.
> 
> It's a matter of figuring out the amount of cows the area can sustain I guess.


As agman says, you need to figure out your carrying capacity and stocking density before you decide how many animals you can run on your property.


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## agmantoo

Start up period
A 24 month cycle...........................head count


month 1......... 2 bred cows....... 2 cows
month 1-2 ..... 2 calves born........... 2 cows & 2 calves

month 3......... rebreed 2 cows...

month 8......... wean 2 calves

month 12....... 2 calves born...... 2 cows,2 yearling,2 calves

month 14....... rebreed 2 cows... 

month 20....... wean 2 calves.....

month 22-23...... 2 calves born ...... 2cows,4calves,2beef animals 
month 24........ sell2 finished beef 

year 3 and after............... 2cows,2yearlings,2calves
sell 2 beef animals each year

These dates and the number of animals living will vary.


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## avrugu

Karin L said:


> As agman says, you need to figure out your carrying capacity and stocking density before you decide how many animals you can run on your property.


how do you do that?

Points on angus taken and appreciated. I definitely wont be choosing a breed half heartily. 





Awesome, Thanks agman on the schedule/ plan. I can wrap my head around that.


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## Karin L

avrugu said:


> how do you do that?


I'll have to get back to you on carrying capacity, but stocking rate is basically how many animal units (AU) you can stock per day, or AU/acre/day. Some producers call them "cow days," I just call it stocking density. One animal unit is equivalent to one 1000 lb cow with or without a calf that consumes 25 lb of forage in dry matter per day. That means that one bovine regardless of weight consumes, on average, 2.5% of its body weight per day.

Stocking density depends on the forage biomass that is produced in your pastures. This comes as kg/hectare or lb/acre. This can be calculated by taking a sward of forage in a 1 ft x 1 ft, cutting all the forage in that square down to four inches, then weighing it. Then convert your figures in lb/sq. ft. to lb/acre. (1 acre = 43.560 sq. ft.)

Of course a lot of the time you can go by just looking at the grass out in the pasture, or confining your cattle to a certain area (one that you think they can eat down in less than a day or even a few hours), and doing calculations that way. You, of course, must know the weight of your cattle in order to calculate the stocking density of your grazing area.

I have a couple of hand-outs I got from my pasture/forage classes that I will post on here tomorrow or PM to you that will help you decide in your grazing plans that may help you. I'll have to come back with more information too, because I've had a really big day with going in for an interview and that and am a bit too tired to go into further details here tonight. Will update tomorrow.


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## avrugu

Thank you very much, Karin. 

Hope you get the job!


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## lakeportfarms

I'd second the comments Karin made on Angus. If you're only raising a few, it shouldn't be too difficult to market the cattle you raise privately without the sale barn. Look into Dexter cattle, which are small frame, have a double coat of hair which helps lower feed requirements during colder months, and has a ready market of small farmers or first time cattle owners who will purchase your heifer calves that you don't intend to keep. As far as beef, since they are small they are more manageable selling 1/2 or even a whole animal to fit in a mid to large size freezer. We do pretty good business with them, far better than we'd ever do at the sale barn. Their beef is excellent quality. I'd recommend good quality registered ones if you'll be selling the heifers as breeders, however.


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## SCRancher

I'll speak up in defense of Black Angus - my experience with MY heard is that they have never challenged me, they move where I want them to move, they come when called (usually). I don't visit my cows on a daily basis except in winter when I perform daily moves to conserve forage. 9 months of the year they see me every 5 days for around 45 minutes; if I spent more time with my cattle I'm sure they would be even more docile then they are now.

This year was the first year I took up new born calves within 48 hours of them being born. I had 2 cows follow me to the shed (going under/over the single strand lane wire) where I weigh, tattoo, and tag the calves. I was nervous about that but they kept enough distance from me that I didn't have to take any action to **** them away.

I did have 1 yearling retained heifer that was flighty and gave me a bit of trouble getting into the working pen for a while but she seems to have settled down now - my kids named her booger because I would come home from trying various fly control measures and tell them about this heifer saying she was being a booger so the name stuck.

The next 3 AI sires I have selected all have very high docility trait in addition to the other parameters I am selecting.

One very good thing about Black Angus is it's huge base which translates into great AI sire selection and strong EPD research.

My cattle however are no where near 1000 pounds. My bull that I purchased when he was almost 2 was 1600+ pounds. The cows when I purchased them ranged between 1400 and 1700 pounds (all over 4 years old when purchased and all pregnant).

I just had an 8 year old cow slaughtered and dressed weight was 750 pounds.

So I calculate around 1.5 AU for each of my cows when I am figuring carrying capacity. You can get smaller animals but I had not read this thread when I purchased my cattle or I MAY have selected smaller animals.


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## Karin L

Carrying Capacity, by definition, "describes the average number of animals that can be placed on a pasture for a season without harming it." It is expressed in AUMs (Animal Unit Months) and is a measure of a pasture's ability to produce enough forage to meet the requirements of grazing animals. Carrying capacity can be determined by experience of knowing how many animals can be stocked in a pasture per grazing period, or by calculating long-term forage yields for the pasture, if possible. Using this information is how you determine how heavily a pasture can be stocked.

One thing that you should note is that carrying capacity does not change if larger or smaller animals (over or under 1000 lb or 1 AU) are placed on pasture, but the stocking rate does. For instance, if you grazed 2 - 1500 lb cows in your property for four months instead of the 1000 lb cows that your pastures can hold, you would get overgrazing in your pasture because your stocking rate is heavier. A cow weighing 1500 lb require 50% more forage than a 1000 lb cow. Thus stocking rate for 1500 lb cows should be 50% lower, or holding only one cow.

Stocking rate should never be confused with stocking density. Stocking rate is the number of animals on pasture during a month or a grazing season, and is usually expressed in AUMs per unit area. Stocking density, on the other hand is the number of animals on a piece of land at a particular point of time, which can be, as I mentioned above, for one day or an hour. Stocking density is best used in rotational grazing, not stocking rate.

Now in calculating your AU's can be a little tricky if you don't know how to calculate it. A lot of the times producers don't have cows that are 1000 lbs (most are over 1000 lbs), so they have to calculate the AUE or Animal Unit Equivalent in order to calculate the proper stocking rate of their pastures. I did mention that above, but I forgot to mention that it's a metabolic weight that is calculated using the formula 

MW = BW^0.75 

where MW = metabolic weight and BW = body weight. The reason we use "metabolic weight" is because the amount of forage required by a bovine or any ungulate is largely a function of its metabolic needs as quantified by its weight. Animal size has a large impact on metabolic needs, though physiological status, reproductive needs and age of the animal has quite an influence as well. Thing is, smaller animals (like yearlings) tend to have a more active metabolism (or greater surface area:volume ratio, causing greater relative heat loss) and require more energy consumption per unit body mass. Larger animals on the other hand usually have slower metabolisms and thus require less energy on a per unit body weight basis. The equation above describes the relationship between body weight and metabolic weight.

Now, to calculate AUE, I've learned to use the following equation, which is called the ratio of metabolic weights:

(BWanimal^0.75)/(BWcow^0.75) = MWanimal/MWcow = AUE

where BWanimal = ungulate you are calculating the AUE for; BWcow = the standardized unit of measure to assess forage demand of a certain animal, and which is a metabolic equivalent to a 1000 lb cow with or without a calf; MWanimal = Metabolic weight of ungulate you are calculating the AUE for, and MWcow is the metabolic weight for the standardized unit of measure of standard 1000 lb cow.

Example: Suppose you're trying to calculate the AUE equivalent for a 1200 lb cow.

(1200 lb ^0.75)/(1000 lb ^0.75) = 203.89/177.83 = 1.15 AU

This equation is great for any ungulate of any weight to determine stocking rate and stocking density of your or any producer's pastures or rangeland.


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## Karin L

I would suggest you take a look at and even print out this PDF file from the University of Minnesota on grazing systems and pasture management for cattle: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/livestocksystems/components/DI7606.pdf It's chuck-full of information and the sort of things you would need to figure out how to calculate and determine your grazing area. I just found it through the USDA site HERE.

The info I shared above (post #1883) is from my rangeland management course lab worksheets that I still have on hand.


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## Gabriel

I have a mixed herd - some black Angus, Red Angus bull, charolais and charolais X brahma and a few purebred Herefords. The single most important factor affecting their attitude appears to be my handling of them. _Grassfed to Finish_ by Allan Nation says that testing in Argentina of 3 different breeds found that handling, not the breed, was the determining factor. I do think that there is some genetic predisposition that affects temperament, but it's not the sole, or even the most important, factor. I highly recommend the book if you're going to market direct to the consumer. Buy it now, before you buy the cattle! I also recommend _Management Intensive Grazing_, by Jim Gerrish.

My list of criteria for cattle: calm, good maternal instinct yet not being aggressive towards me, small framed yet still reaching mature size quickly. I considered Highlands but passed due to everyone saying that they take 3 years to reach full size instead of 2.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin The herd is being moved left to right. The perimeter fence is near the woods. A single permanent paddock wire is in the forefront. Polywire is to the right of the herd and is installed on pigtail posts between the perimeter fence and the permanent paddock wire. The herd is allowed to travel the previously grazed area to the left to access water.

Yesterday I moved the herd off the stockpiled fescue onto some recovered forage that was grazed back in Nov 2011. Though the weather has been great for feeding cattle I am not certain that Winter is over. What remaining stockpiled fescue I have I will reserve should we get some late season bad weather. Around the end of Feb I plan on having poultry litter spread on this area. A soil sample will be taken tomorrow on the entire farm.


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## WJMartin

agman,
Thanks for the visual, it always makes things easier when I'm trying to pass on info.
By the by, great looking pasture, can't wait until we see some green around here.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo.... Hello again. My wife, grandfather and I came to see your place last year. Im still working towards MIG. I am re-reading the old posts to make sure I dont ask a lot of what you have already covered but I do want you to think on something for me while I get caught up. We were just awarded a $6k grant to move from conventional to MIG and a $20k/90% cost share from the NC Ag Cost Share program. The link below is the article that is coming out in the paper Monday. I want to get it right from the beginning. For the grant I planned on getting a squeeze chute from Prefiert that included an AI/Palpation cage (we had a lot of trouble this year with frame size 8-9 cattle as expected) I planned to plant Durana clover spring and fall at 3lbs/acre over 40 acres. A freezer for the retail beef cuts that we already have sold. The cost share is for an additional well and 2500' of 1 inch sch 40 water pipe, 3 Ritchey 2 hole waterers, quick connects in between or quick couplers for water to every paddock and 4000' feet of interior fencing material. 
Our county agent is not confident the clover will do well planting in the spring and suggested I wait until around labor day. If I wait til then and skip spring seeding that will free up $1100 that I could use for other forages or????? I really dont know that I need a big expensive squeeze chute either, if I get everything else in line those problems will take care of themselves, and I dont medicate. We have a simple headgate that still works as it for simple things. That would free up another $3000 to spend otherwise. I cant use it to buy actual cattle however. If you remember I have a hard headed 87 year old grandfather that just wants to keep things the way they always have been. He has an awesome Federal retirement and is not in cattle for the profit but I am very slowly but surely getting the point across that we will not be able to keep up the farm not being profitable. We have 400 acres with 100 in fescue with about 40% of that in clover as well. Our biggest problem at this point is not enough cows for all the forage. He has allowed me to graze 12 acres and across the road on another 17 acres with an additional 8 acre fertile bottom. I will post pictures as soon as I can. I think once I can actually show him the results he will let me move to the rest of the farm. I found a free program that works off google earth satelite imagery that allowed me to design paddocks by measuring the acreage and footage and draw out everything by computer. I will share that free program with everyone when I figure out how to. I soil tested the whole farm this year and I will work on sharing that with you as well. I do know it only recommended limited lime as my grandfather fertilizes every year and spends a small forture. We already have excellent forage with about 10 years worth of hay in storage consideing we have only fed 6 bales this winter with 24 head.
http://www.tryondailybulletin.com/2012/02/10/sweet-grass-farm-receives-6000-grant/


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo (and group).... My wife, grandfather and I came up to your place late last summer. Im still working towards rotational grazing. Im am going back and reading all the posts again trying to get caught up before asking you and the group the bulk of my questions. While I am getting caught up I have a few things I need some advice on. We just received a $6k grant to move from conventional to rotational grazing. We also were approved for a $25K 90% cost share. For the grant I requested things that the cost share would not cover such as a new Prefiert squeeze chute with auto head gate and AI/Palpation cage, spring and fall planting of Durana clover for 40 acres at 3lbs/acre by No till drill(the rest of the pasture has an abundance of clover mixed), chest freezer for retail meat that we allready have agreements for purchase. On the cost share I am putting in another well, 3 Ritchie 2 hole waterers, 2500' of 1" sch 40 pvc and quick couples or freeze proof hydrants in between waterers for water to every paddock. The link below is to the article for the grant that will be in Monday's paper. If you remember I am having to contend with my 87 year old grandfather that is still wide open that wants the farm to remain as is with his form of roational grazing of 20+/- cows in 20 acre cells moved every 3 days along with bailing hay each year. We have 7-10 years worth of hay stored and only fed 6 bales all winter this year. He is "very" slowly but surely coming around a little and has given me 12 acres at my house with 17 acres across the road that leads to an 8 acre wet fertile bottom. We have 400 acres total with 100 or so in pasture. He wont let me into the rest of the farm at this point but if he can see how this works I think he will come around. He gets a good Federal retirement and is not motivated by profit in his way of farming but I am slowing but surely showing him that we cant keep up the farm after he is gone doing things the same way regardless of how much money he leaving behind. I did soil test the entire farm and will share that when I can figure out how to do so but if I remember it only suggested a little bit of lime because he spends a small fortune every year on fertilizer.
I have found a free program that works off Google Earth satelite imagery that I have planned and the paddocks, drawn them out with the computer program complete with acreage and footage measurements. I will share that site with everyone when I figure out how as well. My questions at this point are realated to how I spend the money.
1. I dont really know if I need that nice squeeze chute. We had a lot of problems this year with calving due to frame size 8 and 9 cows but that should fix itself with changes to the type of cattle we have. We have an existing head gate that would serve our purpose considering we dont medicate so that would free up $3k to spend on ???? (oh yeah, we cant use money to buy cattle)
2. Our extension agent is non confident the spring planting of clover will work and suggested I drill that in Sept. That would free up $1200 as well. Any other forage planting suggestions for spring or ideas to best spend the money or use it otherwise?

http://www.tryondailybulletin.com/2012/02/10/sweet-grass-farm-receives-6000-grant/


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## randyandmegs

I have already found one answer when reading. I was confusing condition score with frame score. Ours is bad either way.


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## Karin L

SCRancher said:


> I'll speak up in defense of Black Angus - my experience with MY heard is that they have never challenged me, they move where I want them to move, they come when called (usually). I don't visit my cows on a daily basis except in winter when I perform daily moves to conserve forage. 9 months of the year they see me every 5 days for around 45 minutes; if I spent more time with my cattle I'm sure they would be even more docile then they are now.
> 
> This year was the first year I took up new born calves within 48 hours of them being born. I had 2 cows follow me to the shed (going under/over the single strand lane wire) where I weigh, tattoo, and tag the calves. I was nervous about that but they kept enough distance from me that I didn't have to take any action to **** them away.
> 
> I did have 1 yearling retained heifer that was flighty and gave me a bit of trouble getting into the working pen for a while but she seems to have settled down now - my kids named her booger because I would come home from trying various fly control measures and tell them about this heifer saying she was being a booger so the name stuck.
> 
> The next 3 AI sires I have selected all have very high docility trait in addition to the other parameters I am selecting.
> 
> One very good thing about Black Angus is it's huge base which translates into great AI sire selection and strong EPD research.
> 
> My cattle however are no where near 1000 pounds. My bull that I purchased when he was almost 2 was 1600+ pounds. The cows when I purchased them ranged between 1400 and 1700 pounds (all over 4 years old when purchased and all pregnant).
> 
> I just had an 8 year old cow slaughtered and dressed weight was 750 pounds.
> 
> So I calculate around 1.5 AU for each of my cows when I am figuring carrying capacity. You can get smaller animals but I had not read this thread when I purchased my cattle or I MAY have selected smaller animals.


I know I get quite opinionated about the Angus side of things but this is a prime example of someone who is responsible enough to know what to select for to get the kind of animals that are needed for a good grazing operations. I just said what I did about Angus because it's so popular, too popular for my taste. Of course there's a huge EPD bank in with this breed, but sometimes there can be so much that it gets overwhelming for someone who doesn't know what to look for or how to look for it to get the kind of animals or offspring needed for their herd.

I've got nothing against those who have good Angus herds like you SC and agman, but it's the black-fad and "Angus is best" thing that gets me...eep:


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## SCRancher

@randyandmegs
I found my fall seeded clover (Durana, Patriot, and Advantage Ladino) that I planted (broadcast and dragged) did not do well but my frost seeded clover (same mix) did very well. I frost planted my clover around this time last year (perhaps a couple of weeks sooner) but we had a much colder winter last year.

That's my 1 time experience so take it with a LARGE grain of salt.


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## randyandmegs

SCRancher said:


> @randyandmegs
> I found my fall seeded clover (Durana, Patriot, and Advantage Ladino) that I planted (broadcast and dragged) did not do well but my frost seeded clover (same mix) did very well. I frost planted my clover around this time last year (perhaps a couple of weeks sooner) but we had a much colder winter last year.
> 
> That's my 1 time experience so take it with a LARGE grain of salt.


Another agent from a county over tells me that frost seeding works well for this area but with so much forage left over from last year and no cows to walk it in I dont think I would make good if any soil contact. If the seed wasnt so high in price I would try it anyways.


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## lakeportfarms

Gabriel said:


> I have a mixed herd - some black Angus, Red Angus bull, charolais and charolais X brahma and a few purebred Herefords. The single most important factor affecting their attitude appears to be my handling of them. _Grassfed to Finish_ by Allan Nation says that testing in Argentina of 3 different breeds found that handling, not the breed, was the determining factor. I do think that there is some genetic predisposition that affects temperament, but it's not the sole, or even the most important, factor. I highly recommend the book if you're going to market direct to the consumer. Buy it now, before you buy the cattle! I also recommend _Management Intensive Grazing_, by Jim Gerrish.
> 
> My list of criteria for cattle: calm, good maternal instinct yet not being aggressive towards me, small framed yet still reaching mature size quickly. I considered Highlands but passed due to everyone saying that they take 3 years to reach full size instead of 2.


Passing on the Highlands was a good thing for you. We raise both Highlands and Dexters. You won't get a calf out of a Highland until they are nearly three years old. Bulls and steers mature far later than other breeds. Though, once you have a full grown herd they breed as frequently as others, and typically have longer productive breeding lives, but you'll wait a while before they're ready for the freezer. Also, I doubt they would do real well in TN climate. Last summer here in MI was unusually hot (but probably the average summer for TN), and all the Highlands wanted to do during the day was hang out under the trees. They lost weight, even though we were mob grazing them in small strips twice per day in early morning and early evening. Some had very little hair left on them by early August, which was not typical for us here. I wouldn't recommend the Highland breed for anything greater than zone 5 or a cooler part of zone 6.


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## agmantoo

1. I dont really know if I need that nice squeeze chute. We had a lot of problems this year with calving due to frame size 8 and 9 cows but that should fix itself with changes to the type of cattle we have. We have an existing head gate that would serve our purpose considering we dont medicate so that would free up $3k to spend on ???? (oh yeah, we cant use money to buy cattle)
*I have the corral and the working pen that I built using guardrail. The only bought items are a Priefert head gate with a squeeze and palpation option. I seldom use the Priefert portion of the corral. Did you study the Pearson handling equipment? To me the Pearson equipment has a lot of merit. My corral is not large enough to hold and sort the herd. To hold the herd I have it was necessary to build the staging area pen. This is something you will need in the future as you grow the herd size. You will also need the fencing tools; pliers, post driver, fence tester, energizer, pigtail posts, polywire, standard posts, insulators, etc and high tensile wire to create the permanent partition paddocks to where they are efficient. I would reserve some funds to increase the number of waterers in the future. I disagree with having the small pens that you are having to erect but I do understand the reason for doing it. *

2. Our extension agent is non confident the spring planting of clover will work and suggested I drill that in Sept. That would free up $1200 as well. Any other forage planting suggestions for spring or ideas to best spend the money or use it otherwise? 
* No suggestions on additional forage at this time. You should have enough forage now for your herd and time will tell you where you need to have additional growth for the seasons. You have plenty of time to establish the clover as you are under utilizing the available acreage now. I would plant the clover sparsely as it will eventually try to overtake the fescue. A small Herd brand seeder for broadcasting small seed would be a nice tool to save time and wear and tear on the no till drill. You can take the Herd seeder where the drill cannot be used.*


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## randyandmegs

Thanks for the reply. I was getting worried for a bit checking my email often waiting on your reply as Im finally getting things done on the farm moving in the right direction and need your expertise. I will check into the Pearson handling equipment. Our corral is also not very large and not on level ground. I have a local source for guardrail materail but I had planned on making those improvements in a year or two as the overall numbers increase. For the fencing tools I have already installed HT feeder line to the first 10-12 acres. I already had the post driver, stafix tester, energizer, pigtail posts like I saw at your farm that day we visited. *I disagree with having the small pens that you are having to erect but I do understand the reason for doing it.* what do you mean by that statement... I dont follow. I will purchase the Herd brand seeder as soon as I can find it. Tomorrow morning I will figure out how to post my pictures and let you tell me your ideas on what I have done already along with what to do across the road. As far at the waterers go for the section of work I call phase one which is 27 acres total. Im am planning on installing 3 Ritchie CTS2 2Hole waterers with either quick connects or freeze proof hydrants inbetween the watereres every 416+/- to have water to every paddock in order to avoid creating lanes to water. I figured while Im putting the lines in and have the money I can add those connections as the system is being built. Im wondering now with having those connections should I use that left over money not used on clover in order to add K-line portable irrigation systems. With the cost share I can only get $25k per year therefore next year as this time I will be putting in an addition 5k' of water line, waterers and interior fencing. Thanks as always for the support on this board. Im up to reading post 1051 of 1895.


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## randyandmegs

The red line labeled "P" at the edge of the field to the south is HT that comes from AC source in barn. It cuts across the field in order to eventually feed the rest of the farm. This has been installed. The red line down the center of the field is proposed temp/permanent fence to serve as a middle divider in order to rotate the cattle in a circular direction. The perimiter is surrounded by 4 strand heavy guage Red Brand barbed wire. 

The blue rectangle near the house is the proposed well site with a 1" sch 40 water line following that blue line with 2 Ritchie waterers marked by blue circles.Shown on the next page will be a 1" line from that well that crosses the road into the 14 acre pasture. 

The green is proposed temporary paddocks. The paddocks are measured at 1 acre each just for design purposes. The only reason for using acre measurements is for me to learn the rotational process. I can cut it in half or in 1/4ths to see how much forage is used by a certain number of cattle.


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## randyandmegs

Here is the (almost) the enitre project. The only thing not included is the dark green area to the Northwest which is a fertile bottom. The first part of my project for 2012 is for fields 4,5,6.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

*"farm to remain as is with his form of roational grazing of 20+/- cows in 20 acre cells moved every 3 days" from post 1889 was misread by me and that is why I stated " I disagree with having the small pens that you are having to erect but I do understand the reason for doing it." Just disregard the comment.* 

To minimize any additional mistakes by me I will need some time to study the pics you posted. At first view the layout looks good. I am considering proposing that you add a lane where the blue water line is proposed. The lane could start at the barn where I think you would eventually erect a corral and would provide access to a large portion of the farm for machinery and just plain convenience. I will get back to you over the next few days. I have been on a trip and I do have another one planned soon.


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## SteveO

Evening all,
So Agman when do you frost seed?? We may have seen the last of our cold weather already??

Steve


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## Gabriel

Steve, I frost seeded in Feb' last year and it did well.


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## agmantoo

With the unusual weather we have experienced, it snowed here last evening, I will not be broadcasting any seed. Instead I will notill some grass seed in places that need remediation. My clover has lived all Winter and is coming on too strong and will probably choke out more existing established grass and harm what new grass I sow.


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## WJMartin

Just wanted to post an update: we have most of the fencing in place and yesterday I planted rye grass and crimson clover on the bare spots where the cedars were taken out. Will soon be planting bermuda and plan to do some fertilizing this spring to help the drought stressed grasses. So far this winter (?) we have had fair moisture, praying that continues through to summer. Will plant fescue this fall.

Was excited to find out that a good friend has frame 3 black angus that are grass fed and is happy to let me bring my girls over for breeding, she has a hubba hubba bull, so for now my wondering on bull buying is taken care of. Yes, I have Dexters but I'm growing for family meat so I've decided that crossbreeding is worth a try and the angus bull I'm going to use is only 4 -6" taller than my girls and they aren't heifers. There's a name for that, Dangus, DH was hoping I'd find a Hereford and we could call them Hexter.

Thanks to all of you for your help and encouragement.


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## agmantoo

I believe that the improvement you will see in your calves will justify your decision. The cross will, IMO, add a lot of vigor to the offspring.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

You have a better advantage knowing the topography but here is what I believe that I would do. The solid red line is a proposed lane roughly 40 feet wide. The dash line is a single permanent high tensile partition. 

I am into doing things as efficiently as possible. Part of the solid line will share the pasture perimeter fence and save some money. The rest of the lane fence will be inside the the pasture perimeter and should be just two single high tensile wires, one each side of the lane. The primary reason for running the lane where I did is to enable efficient movement of equipment when doing tasks. As you are aware I am into long and as near rectangular paddocks with only permanent wires on the long parallel runs. With no gates and long runs the turning around will be just at each end. Between fields 2 and 17 that should be a poly wire and pigtail post lane that can be taken down when not needed. The lane at the bottom of the pic should get the animals back to the barn also. At the same time it will give some protection from heavy equipment to the underground water lines if you do the layout to match the lane. I do realize that you will not be using all these areas in the immediate future but this should lay the groundwork for future expansion.


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## randyandmegs

If anyone has any ideas to share based on the questions I have for Agmantoo feel free.
AGmantoo:Thanks for the addition to the drawing. That is pretty close to what I was thinking in concept except I had not planned on doing the lanes, but I'm also not close minded to it as well. I'm awaiting district level approval to in the next week to dig the well and put water lines and waterer's to fields 4,5,6. 
I finished reading the entire thread last night and here are my questions so far. Sorry if some have been covered already but about 3/4ths of th way through I lost the file where I was keeping track of the questions as I went and excuse me if some are stupid questions.
1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?
2. How much time do you spend bush hogging to prevent fescue from going to seed? We have a 10' Woods bush hog and with the topography it takes a lot of time and fuel to get our farm totally cut and if Im not mistaken you have more in pasture than we do. My grandfather does it back wards however and wants it to go to seed first then cuts to spread that seed around. I understand the reason for your process and agree with you. Just curious as to how much time it takes you.
3. Im pretty sure you covered this but I cant find it now... How long after planting various forages can they be grazed? Is it different for each type of forage and is there a test to see when a plant is ready as far as looking at root system or pulling it up?
4. During the warm season we have an abundance of dung beetles that break down manure only leaving a crust. Granted we don't have a large number of cows yet, 20 cows with 12 or so calves this past year. With the correct stocking rate it many not be possible to have that many dung beetles to break all that down manure but do you think that is an alternative to dragging pasture or is it better to spread the nutrients across the grass?
5a. Quote from post you had... "For me I would clip the fescue just above any remaining leaves or about 4 inches whichever fits. I did that just today on what I had the cattle grazing for the last week. I have tried both leaving and clipping and I get better regrowth on the clipped along with less weeds. I want no thatch when the fescue starts regrowing." Is the fact that your bush hog it cutting the tops off only, does it cut it up so fine that you don't have thatch or does it breakdown prior to fescue regrowing. I was thinking that by cutting it would create more thatch.
5b. As far as thatch goes... in a few areas that I personally get to graze this year with my cows there is a heavy layer of thatch from last years forage. Should I take the landscape/root rake through those areas to clean that up in order to let the fescue sprout?
6. Can you explain a little more on the 45 minute test to determine paddock test size. 
7. Would you think a landscape rake would work for a drag harrow, or should I purchase one like you have or a chain harrow style with the spikes pointing up.
8. I have a guaranteed market for retail beef a a premium price only 2-3 steers this first year. What is best way to get marbling, best taste through grass and forages? The rest of the calves will go to sale like you.
9. Last and most important question. Everyone on this thread has problems with lack of rain when needed and that could be a disaster to all in any given year. Why not install irrigation? Im sure the main reason is cost but would the benefits not out weight the cost for some of us. What are all the benefits/negatives for irrigation? Could you go through the dormant season with green forages by irrigating? I have all this extra money to spend now and I am having water put in, in order to have a water source at each paddock. Should I invest in an irrigator such as the K-line system. I got a quote "The K-Line 2 acre kit is an easy to use option. The pods are 50 ft apart. 6 pods and 600 ft of line is $945. Fitting will be around $55." so I could afford 3 of these systems. What are your thought on this?
10. Speaking of water lines. If I have the ability to place water in every paddock wouldn't I be better off going that route versus creating the lanes for the cattle to walk to the water. What are you thought on this as well.


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## agmantoo

1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?

* I do put the ear tag for a female in the left ear. Left and Heif er rhyme so it is easy to remember. For the year of birth I use the alphabet. For example let A represent the year 2000 and then the 12th letter from 2000 is M equating to 12. If you want to do the month also just repeat and the current month would be B. M B will then give you M/B or 12/2 Additionally I sequentially add the the total calves as they are born and tagged. I start at 100 in January of each year. M B with 116 on the tag in the left ear would be a heifer, the 16th calf born on 2012 Feb *
1. What is your system for ear tagging calves. I know you said left and right for males versus females but what is your system for numbers as far as birth time frames?
2. How much time do you spend bush hogging to prevent fescue from going to seed? We have a 10' Woods bush hog and with the topography it takes a lot of time and fuel to get our farm totally cut and if Im not mistaken you have more in pasture than we do. My grandfather does it back wards however and wants it to go to seed first then cuts to spread that seed around. I understand the reason for your process and agree with you. Just curious as to how much time it takes you.

*I can bushhog most of my land at 3 acres per hour. Very steep land takes longer. 
If you manage your pastures you will not have to clip all the fescue. You will clip only the grass that you are wanting to delay going to seed and to control weeds.*


3. Im pretty sure you covered this but I cant find it now... How long after planting various forages can they be grazed? Is it different for each type of forage and is there a test to see when a plant is ready as far as looking at root system or pulling it up?

*Ideally it is best to avoid grazing the first year*

4. During the warm season we have an abundance of dung beetles that break down manure only leaving a crust. Granted we don't have a large number of cows yet, 20 cows with 12 or so calves this past year. With the correct stocking rate it many not be possible to have that many dung beetles to break all that down manure but do you think that is an alternative to dragging pasture or is it better to spread the nutrients across the grass?

*Folks in different parts of the country will have different opinions on drag harrowing manure. If I had a ranch that support 1 cow 1calf per 15 acres I doubt that I would go through the effort. Since I have only 1.4 acres per 1cow 1 calf I need to distribute the manure. Distributing the manure lets the particles of manure drop down near or on the soil. It is more difficult for the cattle to pick up parasites at that level and when the animals are cycled onto this paddock in the near future they will graze the entire area instead of eating around the pies. Recall I am not applying commercial fertilizer and I want the nutrients from the manure distributed*
5a. Quote from post you had... "For me I would clip the fescue just above any remaining leaves or about 4 inches whichever fits. I did that just today on what I had the cattle grazing for the last week. I have tried both leaving and clipping and I get better regrowth on the clipped along with less weeds. I want no thatch when the fescue starts regrowing." Is the fact that your bush hog it cutting the tops off only, does it cut it up so fine that you don't have thatch or does it breakdown prior to fescue regrowing. I was thinking that by cutting it would create more thatch.

*Thatch at my place results from what you grandfather is doing as he bushhogs the headed fescue. The resulting stems are left standing and is now past its growing season. The cattle will not harvest these dead and dying stems and since these stems are not in contact with the soil they are slow to decay. New growth will later emerge and the stems remain to create thatch. *


5b. As far as thatch goes... in a few areas that I personally get to graze this year with my cows there is a heavy layer of thatch from last years forage. Should I take the landscape/root rake through those areas to clean that up in order to let the fescue sprout?

*When I get this condition with the thatch I force my herd to trample the stems into the ground. I do not have an answer for your situation, maybe disc lightly with no angle on the disc blades*


6. Can you explain a little more on the 45 minute test to determine paddock test size.

*Just allocate a small area and let the cattle on it. Watch them for 45 minutes. At the end of the time see whether they have eaten all the forage or just a percentage of it. If they ate all of it in 30 minutes then determine roughly how much more you should have allocated. Then tomorrow do the same thing and see how accurate you new allocation works for the 45 minute time. If it is close then double that amount for the next days allocation and leave the cattle on that area for 24 hours. When you go to move them again observe the herd and the area grazed. There should be some stubble remaining on the grass and the cows should not be bawling. If there is too little stubble remaining or if the herd is discontent increase the area. The herd will let you know if they are not getting adequate forage.*
7. Would you think a landscape rake would work for a drag harrow, or should I purchase one like you have or a chain harrow style with the spikes pointing up.

*The intent of dragging is to get the cow pies distributed as crumbles. The worn out spike harrow works best for me. I have a chain harrow but no longer use it. I plan on making a 20 ft drag harrow similar to a spike harrow but without the spikes*
8. I have a guaranteed market for retail beef a a premium price only 2-3 steers this first year. What is best way to get marbling, best taste through grass and forages? The rest of the calves will go to sale like you.
*Some breeds of cattle will have a greater tendency to marble on grass than others. Marbling is genetically influenced. *


9. Last and most important question. Everyone on this thread has problems with lack of rain when needed and that could be a disaster to all in any given year. Why not install irrigation? Im sure the main reason is cost but would the benefits not out weight the cost for some of us. What are all the benefits/negatives for irrigation? Could you go through the dormant season with green forages by irrigating? I have all this extra money to spend now and I am having water put in, in order to have a water source at each paddock. Should I invest in an irrigator such as the K-line system. I got a quote "The K-Line 2 acre kit is an easy to use option. The pods are 50 ft apart. 6 pods and 600 ft of line is $945. Fitting will be around $55." so I could afford 3 of these systems. What are your thought on this?*Nearly no one in my area has irrigation. The cost to drive and maintain an irrigation pump is one of the main reasons. Our topography is another. Your time will be better spent IMO working with your herd as you grow rather than dragging a few water lines around. Being a hobby produce is one thing. Being in the cattle business is another. Broaden you thoughts now rather than reworking something that is inadequate in the future. A $20,000 irrigation system should suffice for your place in the future. Being able to irrigate just a few acres is a waste. If you want a contingency plan buy a metal building and store bought hay when it is cheap. 1/2 of the initial purchase price of the building can be written off the first year. The bought hay will contain nutrient that you will be recycling to the pasture and at the same time will feed your herd any time of the year. The irrigation system will not grow you forage out of season. *


10. Speaking of water lines. If I have the ability to place water in every paddock wouldn't I be better off going that route versus creating the lanes for the cattle to walk to the water. What are you thought on this as well. 

*The lane is multifunctional! You can graze it. You can sacrifice it when you do not want paddocks damaged by any kind of traffic. You can move the herd back to the corral to treat animals or to select one being sold. During drought you could graze the woods and get cattle back to water. The lane allows unimpeded movement to nearly anywhere on the farm. I think it is essential.*


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## Gabriel

randyandmegs said:


> 4. During the warm season we have an abundance of dung beetles that break down manure only leaving a crust. Granted we don't have a large number of cows yet, 20 cows with 12 or so calves this past year. With the correct stocking rate it many not be possible to have that many dung beetles to break all that down manure but do you think that is an alternative to dragging pasture or is it better to spread the nutrients across the grass?


The beetle population will explode in a rotationally grazed situation. There will be a ton of new food for them all in one area. I still agree with Agman that spreading it out somehow is beneficial in multiple ways.



randyandmegs said:


> 5b. As far as thatch goes... in a few areas that I personally get to graze this year with my cows there is a heavy layer of thatch from last years forage. Should I take the landscape/root rake through those areas to clean that up in order to let the fescue sprout?


Try a high density stocking rate, if you have the time to spend on the management. I would be leery of making them graze too low, they can get into fungus.



randyandmegs said:


> 8. I have a guaranteed market for retail beef a a premium price only 2-3 steers this first year. What is best way to get marbling, best taste through grass and forages?


Read _Grassfed to Finish_, by Allan Nation. He goes into great detail as to what, why and how. It's well worth the money.



randyandmegs said:


> 9. Last and most important question. Everyone on this thread has problems with lack of rain when needed and that could be a disaster to all in any given year. Why not install irrigation?


Again, I firmly agree with Agman that management comes first. You'll be pleasantly surprised when you find out how far it can take you without any expensive inputs. I think that one way the "little guy" gets it wrong when producing commodities is to think he can compete with the big guys. The way to make better money is not to produce more total volume, it's to produce what the land and animals will naturally give, at the lowest cost possible. Prices _will_ fall, and when they do, the low cost producers will still be in the game.


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## randyandmegs

*Nearly no one in my area has irrigation. The cost to drive and maintain an irrigation pump is one of the main reasons. Our topography is another. Your time will be better spent IMO working with your herd as you grow rather than dragging a few water lines around. Being a hobby produce is one thing. Being in the cattle business is another. Broaden you thoughts now rather than reworking something that is inadequate in the future. A $20,000 irrigation system should suffice for your place in the future. Being able to irrigate just a few acres is a waste. If you want a contingency plan buy a metal building and store bought hay when it is cheap. 1/2 of the initial purchase price of the building can be written off the first year. The bought hay will contain nutrient that you will be recycling to the pasture and at the same time will feed your herd any time of the year. The irrigation system will not grow you forage out of season. *

With the grant money I have been awarded Im trying to as you say "Broaden my thoughts" now and do things right the first time around. That is why I am thinking outside the box like the irrigation idea as the last 3 years worth of posts is everyone with the same complaint or issue talking about the lack of rain sometimes for months at a time. That is one aspect I can see that I can make a difference in and have the money to spend on it this year. Unless someone has some better ideas for me that I am not thinking of. The NC Agricultural Cost Share Program covers all the temp and permanent fencing, and waterers. At least for this year I will be grazing 11.5 acres on one side of the road, fields 4 and 6 on the map. That is actually just one field now as I removed the existing fence near the end that was covered in Kudzu. I will also be able to go across the road to graze the 14.5 acres. I am planning on purchasing a used International Dresser dozer soon will will make that field larger over time as well. I realize the irrigation will not grow forage out of season but will it not help the last late July-August dormant period and give me the ability to make it through a drought? My thinking (which may be wrong) was to use the irrigation in conjunction with my watering system. As you can see from the picture I posted of my proposed temp paddocks that I do have a 48'x96' barn this is completely full of round bales stacked 3 high with another barn the same size at my house.


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## agmantoo

Regarding irrigation and drought off setting

One Acre-Inch = 27154 gallons of water
It will take a larger pump than most wells will have and it would have to be a great well to yield that much water. I have not calculated the pipe ID to carry the water. When you get away from the pump the pipe friction will impact the delivery.

Gabriel is right in that once you get the pastures in good order you will have a significant improvement over conventional grazing even in dry years. In the last 12 years I doubled my herd size and I have only supplemented my pasture forage in the drought of 2007/2008. I sailed through the 2003 drought unscathed. Clipping the heads off the fescue will let the fescue carry your herd into Summer. Planting some warm season forage suitable to your location could also help. I just stockpile fescue and feed a little Red River Crab grass. If I had access to a free hay storage building I would not concern myself with drought. As I stated previously, you are buying hay and getting fertilizer. A 4 x 5 round bale of fertilized hay is stated to contain $28 worth of nutrient. The hay can be stored for many years without a lot of loss.


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## randyandmegs

I understand what you are saying regarding irrigation. Terrible problem to have support and funding to move to rotational grazing and not knowing how to best utilize those funds. Last year after topping off our barn with hay I had a surplus of 42 round bales of hay that I sold to a neighbor. Not to long afterwords I met with the NRCS grazing specialist that had the documented proof of the real value of a bale of hay. Your number is actually a little lower than his and that doesn't even include the cost of fuel, labor, depreciation on equipment not to mention my neighbor has all the nutrients that I took off our place. Made me a little sick to realize my mistake in thinking I was making any money selling hay. Never again!
I have been cleaning up the last 3 days and hauling off scrap metal that had accumulated on the farm over the past 70 years. I ended up finding a chain type harrow and a spike type harrow. The spiked one looks like it has never been used but looking at your posts thing would tear up the ground verus doing what I need to, to spread the manure. I did send a request asking to spend the funds in another manner that what I had previously submitted. As long as it still falls under the same purpose of what I called managed grazing they should let me redirect the funds. I still haven't heard any ideas from anyone. I saw where a few years ago another farmer was allowed to use the funds to purchase a bull to improve "genetics and structure" so maybe I can go a simliar route to work on the herd. Im headed out the #5 field today to start fencing out the creek.


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## SCRancher

I agree with agmantoo - about irrigation.
The 27154 gallons of water is per-week to keep fescue growing from what I read.
Now take your well capacity per minute - mine is 20gmp and it comes to a grand total of between 5 and 7 acres watered during a drought and I would have daily moves of the water system. 

I would have had to have a 160 gmp well at a minimum in order to irrigate my entire property which is massive.

Oh and another thing - my well when running non-stop is costing me around $200 per month in electricity and that's with the 20 gpm pump.

The 5-7 acres I could irrigate would not be enough to feed my cattle although it would help offset - I just found it would not be cost effective.


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## Gabriel

You know, it's not a crime to leave that money unspent. :cowboy: It's always our first inclination to think of .gov money as "free"... but we all know it's not. 

Do you have a good fence charger? What kind/how many spools of temp' fencing? If I had the money to spare, I'd pick up some of the O'Brien geared reels and a Stafix charger. 

If you do change your mind about getting a bull, I highly recommend Pharo Cattle Company. I bought a red Angus from them last fall and wow, what an impressive little guy. He has maintained body condition better than all the others and is simply a grazing machine. Very mild mannered also. Where ever you get your bull from, make sure he was raised on pasture only, grain "covers a multitude of sins".


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## randyandmegs

That money is to support WNC farmers that would not be able to farm otherwise. The money comes from the Tobacco Settlement Trust Fund. All of the items you have listed can be bought through the NC cost share program. I do already have most of that anyways as I bought it on my own last year to move my 3 steers around here at the house. I do want to go with a black angus bull, I hope to either go that route or black heifers to get me going.I wonder how do they get those bulls from CO to NC with no issues? Likewise I bet the shipping is a small fortune. I am interested but hopefully I could find someone much closer.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Here is something to ponder over and to possible adapt to your specific location. With your topography and with the usual spring water available in locations such as yours can you conclude how to capture the water at a higher elevation and use subsurface trickle irrigation to deliver water to a lower elevation field without having to depend on electricity or fossil fuel?
subsurface drip/trickle irrigation

This is a copy and paste to let you know what I am referencing.

Drip Irrigation - A dripper in actionDrip irrigation, also known as trickle irrigation, functions as its name suggests. Water is delivered at or near the root zone of plants, drop by drop. This method can be the most water-efficient method of irrigation, if managed properly, since evaporation and runoff are minimized.[citation needed] In modern agriculture, drip irrigation is often combined with plastic mulch, further reducing evaporation, and is also the means of delivery of fertilizer. The process is known as fertigation.


Drip Irrigation Layout and its partsDeep percolation, where water moves below the root zone, can occur if a drip system is operated for too long of a duration or if the delivery rate is too high. Drip irrigation methods range from very high-tech and computerized to low-tech and relatively labor-intensive. Lower water pressures are usually needed than for most other types of systems, with the exception of low energy center pivot systems and surface irrigation systems, and the system can be designed for uniformity throughout a field or for precise water delivery to individual plants in a landscape containing a mix of plant species. Although it is difficult to regulate pressure on steep slopes, pressure compensating emitters are available, so the field does not have to be level. High-tech solutions involve precisely calibrated emitters located along lines of tubing that extend from a computerized set of valves.

Both pressure regulation and filtration to remove particles are important. The tubes are usually black (or buried under soil or mulch) to prevent the growth of algae and to protect the polyethylene from degradation due to ultraviolet light. But drip irrigation can also be as low-tech as a porous clay vessel sunk into the soil and occasionally filled from a hose or bucket. Subsurface drip irrigation has been used successfully on lawns, but it is more expensive than a more traditional sprinkler system. Surface drip systems are not cost-effective (or aesthetically pleasing) for lawns and golf courses. In the past one of the main disadvantages of the subsurface drip irrigation (SDI) systems, when used for turf, was the fact of having to install the plastic lines very close to each other in the ground, therefore disrupting the turfgrass area. Recent technology developments on drip installers like the drip installer at New Mexico State University Arrow Head Center, places the line underground and covers the slit leaving no soil exposed.


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## SCRancher

I would be worried about very wet and soggy conditions with that drip irrigation system Agmantoo - at times on my place the cattle will sink 4-5 inches (worst case condition) but mostly only 2-3 inches. My fear would be that they cut or crimp the thin black tubing if it's like what I have seen at Lowes and such.

If you don't have a fence charger I will give a personal review of my Stafix charger with remote control - that remote control is the bomb - being able to turn off/on the fence from anywhere is the most used feature on my remote which also doubles as a short finder.

I got a bull from Yon Family Farm in SC - great quality bulls I think and he delivers it free. www.*yonfamilyfarms*.com/ at auction the bull I purchased was $3,250 PB Black Angus and it was one of the least expensive bulls purchased that day. The most expensive bull purchased that day went for over $15,000 I'm not sure why I was able to pick mine up for so little as IMO he had better stats for what I was looking for then others that sold for more. They have bull auctions twice a year - in November and Jan/Feb - think you just missed this latest one.


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## randyandmegs

I was just reading their information in the Carolina Cattle Connection. This months issue spotlight is on Angus so that should give me some direction to start looking. 

For anyone who is intersted the free program I used to draw out my paddocks on post 1897 is located at http://scribblemaps.com/


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## Gabriel

IIRC, Agman had some trouble with his MG bull adapting to an all forage diet. If you feed grain, it's no big deal to buy a bull that grew up on that diet, but if you don't... you never know what you'll get. The spring PCC sale is coming up. Delivery is quite reasonable as they deliver a lot of bulls all over the country, it's not like they have to hire a truck for each bull. You might well be able to find a supplier much closer, check the Stockman Grass Farmer's ad's. You can request a free issue at the site. 

You're not that far away from Agman, are you? If I was closer I'd have bought my heifers from him.


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## SCRancher

I feed only grass and hay - as little hay as possible - and hi-mag mineral supplement - that's it.

I did experiment with corn glutton/soy hull mix the previous year because I ran out of hay and couldn't find more but it's way too expensive. I had poor planning and even poorer conditions that year.

Anyway my point is my bull is doing well and still is in fine condition.

Oh another nice thing - if Yon has a 1 year satisfaction guarantee - which if I remember correctly you can return him for a refund.

I guess I'm pleased because although I am planning on going AI for the next few years when I get ready to get rid of this bull and buy another it's a good chance I'll get another Yon Bull if I don't keep one of my own.


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## randyandmegs

I get the SGF and enjoy reading it. I have purchase many books listed in there. I am waiting on Grassfed to Finish. I just received Southern Forages yesterday and really like it so far. I can actually identify some of the forages I have already growing.
Yeah, I bought my registered red angus bull listed below that had been grain fed. I dont 
have much of opinon of him yet due to the problems with the mamma cows. 

His EPD is http://http://search.redangus.org/animal/1227103


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## ramiller5675

Randyandmegs - I'm not sure how Red Angus EPDs compare to black Angus EPDs, but why did you pick this bull in the first place? Is his poor performance due to being fed grain or is he just an average bull (an 88 lb BW seems huge to me)?

I might be mistaken, but I thought that Agmantoo has had problems with his bulls because of the endophyte-fescue that makes up the majority of his forage, instead of them being fed grain. A bull that had never been fed grain, but had also never eaten fescue might have problems adapting to a fescue diet.


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## agmantoo

Actually I have had 6 purchased registered bulls. Prices paid were all over the place, from reasonable to high IMO. All of these bulls received grain as supplemental feed. None of these bulls flourished at my location. Five of the six purchased bulls were produced within 150 miles of my farm, the sixth one traveled 2900+ miles to get here. The five had had fescue in their diet, the sixth one had never had the first blade of fescue. The Murray Grey was the sixth animal and he did have an adjustment period but has done the best in holding condition.
.


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## ramiller5675

I guess I was mistaken after all, I would have thought that a bull eating fescue most of his life wouldn't have a problem adapting to a mostly all forage diet of fescue. I wonder why that is?

Both of my bulls seem to do good on grass, hay, and a couple of pounds of cubes a day for a few months in the winter. They were both fed grain in bull tests as yearlings, but when I bought them I compared them to the linear measurements of an ideal grass-based bull from 

http://www.bovineengineering.com/linear_male.html

I can't say that I agree with everything that Gerald Fry says, but both bulls seem to produce quality calves and heifer replacements so far, so there might be something to his ideas. In other words, a good bull is based on more than if he has or hasn't been fed grain, his form is pretty important.


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## randyandmegs

We picked him to match our herd of cows, which are mostly tall Brangus. BTW our cows had been open for almost 3 years prior to buying him. My wife and I purchased him in order to start our own herd and to give us our start at cattle farming since none of the rest of the family is interested in farming. We have an over abundance of forage so he has done well body wise just not a high percentage of bred cows the first year. I started culling this past year and the lightest cow (which was lame) was 1568 lbs. The average cow sold was 1700lbs with the largest being 1820 lbs. At this point in time of 20 cows I have only seen for sure one come back in heat which is a huge surprise. The calf in the newspaper article on a previous post was pulled and he weighed 90lbs and ended up being bottle fed. We also had supplemental protein out all year as well. I don't know how much grain our bull was fed but on the 3 trips to that farm they were being fed grain and seemed accustomed to it but looking at the farm and the grass they had I would say it was supplemental only. We are still *well *in the beginning stages of this process as I can only use part of our farm for managed grazing but I think once I show results from it I will be able to expand. Otherwise I will be preparing for the future considering the boss of the farm turns 88 this year  The cows are basically his pets and he is in no way profit motivated but slowly starting to understand we wont be able to continue this when he is gone therefore he is letting me "prepare for the future" but otherwise he is happy with how he has always done things. He was telling me yesterday that we have the endophyte free fescue but he also reads things in magazines and thinks we have been doing things here on the farm years ago that had not even been invented yet on the other hand I have had to eat crow several times arguing with him about things that turned out to be indeed true. As Agmantoo can tell you on a visit to his farm my grandpa was more interested in sitting on his dozer while my wife and I were out learning, looking at the herd, how he moved the cattle, and how to use the polywire. I was pretty amazed at watching his cattle go through the gates made by just lifting the wire with the pvc pipe. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the paddocks and managing the forage and learning more everyday about the type of cattle I want to raise and the reason why. After reading this entire post, countless books and going to grazing classes I am really learning so much and looking forward to the future.


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## Gabriel

Whew, sounds like you have a herd of small elephants! 

Even if you have no interest in PCC, I recommend signing up for their newsletters and reading their sale catalog. They cite research which I think you'll find useful. 



> a good bull is based on more than if he has or hasn't been fed grain, his form is pretty important.


Absolutely. I just meant to say that grain can make gains look a lot better and mask the true ability, or inability as the case may be, to gain on just grass. Also, grain reduces fertility.


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## Allen W

randyandmegs

Listen to what your grandfather has to say about the cattle and farm. It's valuable information even if it doesn't exactly fit with what you are trying to do. You never know when something he has told you might someday be the answer your looking for. The old cows may be his pets but I bet seeing babies on the ground puts a smile on his face.

With a set of brangus cows I would have been tempted to put a Hereford bull on them to make some super baldie replacement females, as the brangus people like to call the cross.


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## randyandmegs

Yeah thats why I said I have had to eat crow more than once. Just frustrating to see him spent $5k on fertilizer to sell $4k in calve not to mention all the other farming costs. I will eventually be his caregiver and I need to turn the farm into a profitable one in order to leave my full time job to be with him. Our family has a long history of living up to 100.


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## TennVol

Greetings to all! I purchased 11 acres last fall and am putting together plans to reseed the pasture from row crops. I am also starting my list for the perimeter fence...the interior will be taken care of with polywire divisions for MIG.

The question that I have is...for those of you that have an electrified Hi-T fence, how far apart do you like your wood line posts and what size posts do you like for line vs corner?

Any suggestions would be appreciated!


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## SCRancher

I spaced my wood posts 25 feet apart around the perimeter - I could have spaced them farther apart.

All my posts are the 5-6 inch diameter 6 feet long driven with a post driver 2 feet (roughly) into the ground. Corner posts are 8 inch center with 6 inch posts 8 feet from the center going in both directions to form an H (center of H near the top of the posts).

I could have used farther spacing in the range of 30-50 feet on level ground.

I put spring tensioners inline on each wire - my wires are tight but have enough play that when an oak tree fell on the wires dragging 5 strands to the ground when I cut the tree off they sprang right back up with no damage and no re-tensioning required.

While I could have put more space between posts I'm not sure I did a bad thing because while neighbors have calves that escape all the time with barbed wire and 3 strand hot fence (both on metal posts) - I have never had a calf or cow escape my perimeter although I'm sure the cows or bull could easily get through it if they were really motivated.


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## Gabriel

TennVol said:


> Greetings to all!


Welcome to the site! 



TennVol said:


> The question that I have is...for those of you that have an electrified Hi-T fence, how far apart do you like your wood line posts and what size posts do you like for line vs corner?


I go into the woods and cut cedars for my posts. The corners are usually at least 8"x8', sunk 4' deep, slightly cantilevered. I don't run my wires banjo tight, as a little bit of flex saves me a lot or repair work when an animal hits it. The line posts are whatever I can scrounge up that are the right height and thick enough to accept the insulators, ~40' apart on flat ground, closer on dips/hills.


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## HDRider

I wanted to see if anyone would offer comment or advice on my MIG pasture layout.

W = Water : The numbers indicate the sequence of cattle movement.
Sequence 1 â 9 is 40 acres : Sequence 1 â 16 is 40 acres : Sequence 1 â 12 is 60 acres

The pasture is neglected and ripe for the rejuvenating effects of mob grazing. It is mostly Fescue, some Bermuda and a little clover. I will work on strengthening my clover.

The red lines are three strands of permanent electrified high tensile. Yellow lines are movable electric polywire. Fat yellow on red are gates


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## Gabriel

HDRider, the purple lines are the flow of movement, right? It shows the cattle moving through 3 strands of HT fence... 

I assume (?) you put the thin yellow lines in for reference only. 

What do the "square P's" mean? 

I see several pastures that have no shade, how will you amend that?


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## myersfarm

HDrider to me you left out the most important info...how many cows do you plan on running on this


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## ramiller5675

I've always thought that the most interesting aspect of the sort of MiG being discussed here was the idea of having a centralized lane containing a few watering points which allows an awful lot of flexibility in sizing the paddocks to fit the daily grazing needs of the cattle. 

I don't see any sort of lane in your drawing. I also don't see the need for three hot wires on an interior fence (maybe an exterior perimeter fence?), one hot wire should be able to hold in anything as long as you have a quality energizer and will let you "open up" a gate anywhere in the fence by lifting or lowering the single wire.

I would rather spend my money on a few strategically placed water lines if possible, instead of on extra unneeded wires.


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## HDRider

_HDRider, the purple lines are the flow of movement, right? It shows the cattle moving through 3 strands of HT fence... 

I assume (?) you put the thin yellow lines in for reference only. 

What do the "square P's" mean? 

I see several pastures that have no shade, how will you amend that? 


HDrider to me you left out the most important info...how many cows do you plan on running on this 


I've always thought that the most interesting aspect of the sort of MiG being discussed here was the idea of having a centralized lane containing a few watering points which allows an awful lot of flexibility in sizing the paddocks to fit the daily grazing needs of the cattle. 

I don't see any sort of lane in your drawing. I also don't see the need for three hot wires on an interior fence (maybe an exterior perimeter fence?), one hot wire should be able to hold in anything as long as you have a quality energizer and will let you "open up" a gate anywhere in the fence by lifting or lowering the single wire.

I would rather spend my money on a few strategically placed water lines if possible, instead of on extra unneeded wires. _

*Thanks folks, all good points and questions. â

Purple is flow, and direction is following the numbers, staring with #1.

Square Ps are ponds, I have three and plan to add another soon, and maybe (probably) more.

Interior HT (red lines) will probably be one strand, with gates. The thin yellow lines are just there for conceptual reasons and their placement will be completely flexible.

The tree lines surround all perimeter areas, and act as riparian zones, will provide some shade. I really want the cattle eating or moving.

I will work up my headcount as the pasture become more robust, but will start with a number somewhat less than 1 head per 1.5 acres.

I wish I could do a centralized lane, and will spend more time trying to figure that out, working with the shapes and contours taxes my little lane brain.

Believe me; I appreciate ânot spending money is making money!!â*


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## myersfarm

I will work up my headcount as the pasture become more robust, but will start with a number somewhat less than 1 head per 1.5 acres


that figures 93 head and your Sequence 1 &#8211; 16 is 40 acres and that is 2.5 acres......93 head and 2.5 acres do not think that would last even half a day...so why not make lots bigger


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## agmantoo

My allocation of area being grazed will vary from season to season. As winter comes to an end here in zone 7 I am sizing the grazing at roughly 4/10ths of an acre on the last of the stockpiled fescue. This grass is still nearly 1 foot tall. I often have as much as 135,000 to 150,000 lbs of animals on no more than 1/2 acre for a 24 hour period. The reason that I need 1.4 acres for year round grazing is due to seasonal conditions. I actually stockpile grass for 2 periods per year. Therefore, I have to have areas that are set aside to accomplish the amassing of forage for feed when the pastures are not growing. I have difficulty understanding how mob grazers are able to maximize forage production in order to minimize feeding expensive hay a large portion of the year. This feeding of hay must drive up the production cost of the beef they are producing and reducing returns/profit.


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## HDRider

myersfarm said:


> I will work up my headcount as the pasture become more robust, but will start with a number somewhat less than 1 head per 1.5 acres
> 
> 
> that figures 93 head and your Sequence 1 â 16 is 40 acres and that is 2.5 acres......93 head and 2.5 acres do not think that would last even half a day...so why not make lots bigger


I might not have been very clear, or don't understand your point. I plan to have three separate herd rotations. 

At best the 40 acres would/could/should have 27 head on it. Again, the practice and results will say how many cattle and how long they are on it. 

It is all guess work at this point.


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## Gabriel

HDRider said:


> I plan to have three separate herd rotations.


You plan to run 3 different herds? Or 3 different rotations for 1 herd?


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## MarkM

Agman,

I understand that you start stockpiling your fescue for winter grazing around September 15th. What is your other stockpiling period. Early summer for late summer/fall use while you are stockpiling the fescue?

Do you feel that "mob grazing" necessarily precludes stockpiling forages? I was under the impression that it more described the densities used.

Remember, this is all new to me. My first calf was born last weekend and the mother seems to want to place it just outside the wire during the day. Is this a problem? I have 30 animals on an acre a day, should I resist moving the back fence up as I move the animals to give the mothers/calves more room. I am expecting 16 more calves in the next 6 weeks.

As always, thanks,

Mark


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## HDRider

Gabriel said:


> You plan to run 3 different herds? Or 3 different rotations for 1 herd?


I am thinking three herds.


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## Gabriel

HDRider said:


> I am thinking three herds.


Why? I can think of reasons not to do it that way, but will wait for your answer.


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## HDRider

Gabriel said:


> Why? I can think of reasons not to do it that way, but will wait for your answer.


I was thinking they would be easier to mange and not do the longer moves.

I thought it would be easier to judge the grazing rate of a smaller herd.

I am not married to the idea. The reason I posted was to hear from those that are experienced with this.


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## Gabriel

HDRider said:


> I was thinking they would be easier to mange and not do the longer moves.
> 
> I thought it would be easier to judge the grazing rate of a smaller herd.
> 
> I am not married to the idea. The reason I posted was to hear from those that are experienced with this.


1. You'll have to have 3 times as many moves and the calculation isn't any harder for 75 than it is for 25. 

2. Larger groups of cattle graze more competitively than small ones. 

3. You'll have to have 3 bulls, or use A.I., or run them all together for the breeding season.

4. You'll have less recovery time with 3 groups.


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## ramiller5675

The only reasons I can see for having three separate herds is if you are raising your own replacement heifers and want to keep specific bulls in different pastures with specific cows for the breeding season.

Or, you are grazing different classes of cattle (i.e. a herd of stockers and a cow/calf herd).

But, if you had one herd (or even just two instead of three) it would probably be easier to manage them and the pasture. Longer rest periods for your grass, more cushion if a drought occurs, and more chances to stockpile forage for the winter. 

A bigger herd would also mean a bigger daily paddock and therefore fewer watering points might be required.


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## agmantoo

MarkM said:


> Agman,
> 
> I understand that you start stockpiling your fescue for winter grazing around September 15th. What is your other stockpiling period. Early summer for late summer/fall use while you are stockpiling the fescue?
> * I stockpile grass to carry me through late July and August. As the weather heats and the moisture drops the fescue that is my staple feed ceases to be productive. I keep the seed heads clipped to keep the fescue green and suitable for feed as possible.*
> Do you feel that "mob grazing" necessarily precludes stockpiling forages? * From my observations mob grazing is a once or twice over of the forage during a growing season with little or no attempt to extend or enhance to productivity of the paddocks. I want the cattle off my paddocks before the forages are stressed. I expect regrowth in most instances to be rapid and highly productive since I leave the grass with adequate foliage to start photosynthesis in the plants without having to use the reserves stored in the root system.* I was under the impression that it more described the densities used.
> *If you saw the number of cattle that I put on each daily allotment to be grazed you might also think I was mob grazing. I cannot determine how to stockpile forage for Winter to avoid baling and at the same time permit mob grazing with the extent of the grazing permitted. If I had more land maybe I could make it work. However, with the extended growing season here in zone 7 I feel that I am ahead doing what I do. Remember, I am carrying the entire herd (~100 brood cows plus their calves on 141 acres year round *
> Remember, this is all new to me. My first calf was born last weekend and the mother seems to want to place it just outside the wire during the day. Is this a problem?*Some of my cows also want to do this with their calves to get the calves out of harms way. As long as you have a good perimeter fence that habit will not be an issue as long as you remember to take the calves with the herd if you move the herd any distance.* I have 30 animals on an acre a day, should I resist moving the back fence up as I move the animals to give the mothers/calves more room. *I see no harm if omitting the back fence as long as you do not leave access to the previously grazed area for no more than 3 to 4 days.* I am expecting 16 more calves in the next 6 weeks.
> 
> As always, thanks,
> 
> Mark




Good luck with the calving!


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## myersfarm

Sequence 1 &#8211; 9 is 40 acres ...if you put a herd in this with 9 lots grass will need more of a rest period to recover after grazing


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> From my observations *mob grazing is a once or twice over of the forage during a growing season with little or no attempt to extend or enhance to productivity of the paddocks*. I want the cattle off my paddocks before the forages are stressed. I expect regrowth in most instances to be rapid and highly productive since I leave the grass with adequate foliage to start photosynthesis in the plants without having to use the reserves stored in the root system.


I don't believe that's how most mob grazers do it. From what I have seen, they leave more than most would consider necessary and allow the cattle more choice and the plants more leaf surface to work with once the cattle have moved on. (I'm speaking strictly as an observer, not a practitioner, at least not yet.)

Mob grazing article.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel 
The only mob grazing that I have reviewed is that promoted by Greg Judy via articles and pictures. From what I saw he was leasing land and running large groups of cattle that were confined to small allocations of forage. The cattle were held until most all vegetative matter was eaten or trampled into the soil. I gathered that the area just consumed would not be fed again for a lengthy time period. Regarding the article that you supplied, I went to it. Seems to me that whether it is mob grazing or mig grazing or just intensive grazing it is just a matter as to whom is doing the talking or where the farm/ranch is located. Where one of the persons in the article had 500 pair on 10 sections is hard for me to grasp. We just do not have that volume of land available for grazing justifiably. At 500 pairs on 6400 acres that is still 128 acres for a cow/calf pair's waste where I am positioned at 1.4 acres for a cow/calf pair's waste. Yes, I am fortunately to be in an area where we get more rain. With the manner that I provide the forage that is fed year round I do not have the luxury of a single grazing allocation of forage from a single one time grazing over a full year as mentioned in the article. The infrequently grazing periods after a massive consumption and trampling of the leftover organic material is what come to my mind when mob grazing is mentioned. In the article there was mention on concentrating the urine and manure. Each cow/calf pair will only deposit so much manure. Would you agree with that? If so, with my cow/calf operation how would you compare the benefits where the waste from a cow/calf pair is distributed on 1.4 acres year round. Am I mob grazing or am I mig grazing or intensive rotational grazing or are they all one and the same and it is all just symantics?


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## randyandmegs

This may belong somewhere else but I would like everyone's thoughts that are active on this thread as you are the ones I have come to trust.

What are your thoughts on delayed castration? I read all about the benefits from the makers of the Calicrate type banders so I would expect there response to be favorable to waiting but what do you guys think? The largest majority of my cattle will be going to sale barn but I do have a market for 3-4 yearly processed animals which I would get a premium price per pound for. I had a bull calf born this morning that I had planned on tagging and banding tomorrow morning (had to get to my full time job this morning) but wondering if I should wait if the gains are really that great as some claim. I do have one bull that has grown well this year and is about 10 months old that I want to process before the dormant period this summer. Does leaving them intact cause an off flavor of the meat? I can castrate him at any point from now until he goes to the abattoir or if it doesnt matter as far as taste I can leave him as it.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> Gabriel
> The only mob grazing that I have reviewed is that promoted by Greg Judy via articles and pictures. From what I saw he was leasing land and running large groups of cattle that were confined to small allocations of forage. The cattle were held until most all vegetative matter was eaten or trampled into the soil. I gathered that the area just consumed would not be fed again for a lengthy time period.


The only figures I've seen were "60% eaten, 20% trampled, 20% left". What is left height wise depends, obviously, on what you started with if you go by those figures. I have also seen a blog where a guy claimed to be showing the aftermath of mob grazing and it was literally bare dirt. All of the people commenting on it disagreed though, they said it wasn't "mob grazing", it was "poor management". 



agmantoo said:


> With the manner that I provide the forage that is fed year round I do not have *the luxury of a single grazing* allocation of forage from a single one time grazing over a full year as mentioned in the article.


I don't think they view it as a luxury, it's a necessity. It simply takes that long to recover due to the lack of rain. 



agmantoo said:


> The infrequently grazing periods after a massive consumption and trampling of the leftover organic material is what come to my mind when mob grazing is mentioned. In the article there was mention on concentrating the urine and manure. *Each cow/calf pair will only deposit so much manure. Would you agree with that?*


X amount of dry matter in will equal Y amount of manure out, yes. But that won't be consistent from paddock to paddock due to the varying heights of the forage available. If one paddock has 6" tall grass and the next has 12" tall grass, you'd have to cut the available area in half (assuming the edible forage was the same) and thus the same amount of manure would be concentrated on half the area. 



agmantoo said:


> Am I mob grazing or am I mig grazing or intensive rotational grazing or are they all one and the same and it is all just semantics?


I don't know what to call it. M.I.G. simply means that the management is intensive so a wide variety of systems could fall under that definition. My limited understanding at this time is that mob grazing is concerned more with the land/plants condition than with the animals, because it's the base of the pyramid. They don't ignore the animals condition, but if they can't do well on what's available, they lower the stocking rate while keeping stocking density high, until such time as the pasture productivity has increased.


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## Gabriel

randyandmegs said:


> What are your thoughts on delayed castration? I read all about the benefits from the makers of the Calicrate type banders so I would expect there response to be favorable to waiting but what do you guys think? The largest majority of my cattle will be going to sale barn but I do have a market for 3-4 yearly processed animals which I would get a premium price per pound for. I had a bull calf born this morning that I had planned on tagging and banding tomorrow morning (had to get to my full time job this morning) but wondering if I should wait if the gains are really that great as some claim. I do have one bull that has grown well this year and is about 10 months old that I want to process before the dormant period this summer. Does leaving them intact cause an off flavor of the meat? I can castrate him at any point from now until he goes to the abattoir or if it doesnt matter as far as taste I can leave him as it.


The only issue I feel qualified to comment on is the flavor. We've eaten many of our young bulls and never had a problem with them.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
Originally Posted by agmantoo View Post
With the manner that I provide the forage that is fed year round I do not have the luxury of a single grazing allocation of forage from a single one time grazing over a full year as mentioned in the article.
*I don't think they view it as a luxury, it's a necessity. It simply takes that long to recover due to the lack of rain.
*
Agmantoo 
*I am the one viewing having excess land that would permit ME the luxury of not having to tighten my allocations during trying times. If I recall correctly one person in the article mentioned having a years worth of grass. I never have more than 90 days worth in reserve grass and I have only 16 days worth of emergency hay. The situation could get tight here quick! *


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## HDRider

Do you (adherents of intensive rotational grazing) believe the practice aids in the Prevention of SCOURS, in calves and adult cattle?


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## agmantoo

I have lots of clovers, possibly too many. My cows stay "loose" as a result of eating all the clovers IMO. My young calves almost never have scours. If they do have a mild case it seems to correct on its own. Since I have a closed herd this could also be beneficial. I do feel that my newborn calves benefit since they are born on what I believe to be cleaner ground than that of conventional pastures. I firmly believe that the sunshine on paddocks being vacant between grazings is sanitizing and beneficial.


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## agmantoo

The herd is pictured on what I consider clean ground that was grazed late (Dec "11) and has recovered to a level that permits regrazing now. Calves born and kept on such ground have a far better chance of thriving IMO. I give no shots.


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## myersfarm

Agman how long will they be left in the plot ?

can we get a picture of this same field when you take them out hopefully same location ?


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## Gabriel

Agman, I know you keep your bulls with the herd year 'round and I think you said you go the the sale barn 4 times annually? Are the calves born on a consistent year 'round schedule or have they "bunched up" at certain times of the year?


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo what are your thoughts on my post on delayed
Castration?


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
The calving schedule does vary. Most of my cows will bred back around 45 days after giving birth. Sometimes they do tend to come in sync with other open cows. The reason I know this is that calving will coincide on 21 day cycles frequently. I tend to market quarterly but I do not have a definite adherence to this schedule. When prices are good and I have market animals I send them. When prices dip I may hold smaller animals provided I have surplus forage. I like having cash flow throughout the year. Most farmers have their calves either in the Fall or Spring and then they market in unison also. When the market is flooded the prices of farm commodities typically drop. My intent is to at least get the average.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Just from my observation bulls left intact will gain faster most of the time. I do band young animals for the following reasons. I am a one man show and I cannot catch and hold a bull calf in the pasture by myself once it gets some age one it. I also do not like the dockage for an intact bull feeder calf at the sale barn. Intact bulls have a tendency to ramble as they age and they are constantly grunting and making a nuisance of themselves. If I were going to send a male bovine to slaughter at less than 30 months of age I am unsure it I would neuter him.


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## agmantoo

myersfarm
I move the herd daily. It only takes a few minutes and I feel I need to check on them regardless. Here is a pic taken a few weeks back. The paddock on the left of the herd was grazed the day prior and the pic was taken just minutes after I moved them. You can see in the forefront close to what the grass was like. The paddock to the left is somewhat pugged as the ground was wet when the animals were on it and I believe it rained while they were there. If this is not what you wanted to see I will get more pics. Just let me know.


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## myersfarm

Thanks thats what I wanted before during and after....I wondered what it looked like after they were pulled


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## agmantoo

myersfarm

Here is the pugged area as seen today


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## Maka

Hello AgMan and all. I am reading this very long thread and have gotten through page 12. I wanted to jump ahead and raise a question on my mind as I am considering paddock design. The land I am looking to purchase has a lot of wooded ground that is from moderate to very steep. The paddocks would likely contain some pasure and some woods. The question is how steep the hilly woods can be and safe for the cattle. This came to mind as I saw a neighbors place and a fairly steep (guess 3-1 slope) hilly wooded spot was very clean. I beleive this is due to cattle feeding on it. My wife commented how beautiful and clean his hill is. All the big oaks etc... standing looking like a park. So if I have a 3-1 slope is this safe and goot to include in my paddocks?

Thanks for directing me to this thread AgMan. fyi, my userid is GoodLife on that other board. This is probably the best thread I have seen on the subject of raising cattle on grass.

Ed


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## agmantoo

Maka

Welcome to the site!

Rather steep ground is not a problem to the cattle IMO. What is threatening to the cattle are vertical drop offs and deep holes. Otherwise if you can get the perimeter fence in there should be no issues. You may have to apply soil nutrients by hand until you get the pastures established. The woods will provide shade and the grass areas the feed the cattle need. This combination should create the view the wife wants. The cattle will keep the lower limbs of the trees pruned and the underbrush gleaned. A 3 in 1 slope is not negotiable. I interpret that to be 3 feet rise in 1 foot of run. A 1 foot rise in a 3 feet of run is very negotiable.


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## randyandmegs

Agman, speaking of perimeter fence. We have 4 strand mostly 12.5 ga to 15.5 ga barbed wire that varies in condition based on the field location, but mostly in good shape. Currently it keeps the cows in just fine but they also don't have any reason to get out with all the forage we have. My question is.... Do I need to go back around and make a new perimeter in HT? If so I need details on how to do it as far as distance away from other fence, number of strands etc. The field in question is #5 that is 14.4 acres from post 1898.


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## Maka

agmantoo said:


> Maka
> 
> Rather steep ground is not a problem to the cattle IMO. What is threatening to the cattle are vertical drop offs and deep holes. Otherwise if you can get the perimeter fence in there should be no issues.
> 
> A 3 in 1 slope is not negotiable. I interpret that to be 3 feet rise in 1 foot of run. A 1 foot rise in a 3 feet of run is very negotiable.


Thanks AgMantoo. Yes I meant a 3 ft run for each foot of rise. I will reverse those nubmers when I speak on this web site. This is the way my brother the heavy equipment operater orders the rise and run. Some of it probably gets to a 1-2 (1 ft rise - 2 ft run) slope even but it is encouraging that this will provide some nutrition and even allow the cattle to help me clean the place up. The property I am looking at is 60 acres with 35-37 of that in hilly woods. They are pretty and full of deer though. 

One concern I have is I am committed to rotational grazing and wonder how difficult running polywire through the woods will be (avoiding trees). Does it make sense to paddock the pasture with free access to the woods? In effect I am thinking run HT wire down the edge of the woods and the opposite side which is the lane. Use Polywire to section off the paddocks in the pasture as has been discussed here, and perhaps use two of those 7 ft. poles to life the polywire along the woods side of the paddock I am using that day. I would of course need to have good perimeter fence on the other side of the woods but I am already planning on good woven wire with a starnd of barb wire around the perimeter. I know that is very expensive but I think I am going to accept that cost as a permanent fence that will hopefully reduce the coyote and dog issues.

If I end up getting the place I will post a pic with my ideas for fencing and take advantage of your generosity in reviewing and making suggestions. You are a sort of nationwide county extension agent for us AgManToo. I wonder how many happy head of cattle.

One other question. Currently there is about 15 acres of new wheat on the place. I expect they will sow the wheat and leave the field in stalks. I don't have a tractor yet so what are your suggestions for attempting to get the field turned into pasture. I was thinking first get a soil sample tested. Then attempt to make a deal with the leasing farmer to disc the field and spread lime. I do not know what he has been spreading on th eplace. Then later in the fall get something sowed out there. I figured I would work with the county extension agent to figure out what. Probably Ky Blue Grass, Clover, and perhaps some fescue mixed. But it is really pre-mature to be stating what before I talk to the agent. Then I will have about a year to tend and improve the pastures, build a pole barn, and work fences before I build a house there and put cattle on the place. Other suggestions? I am working hard to get this setup correctly taking advantage of the what I see as the opportunity made by setting this up from scratch. Other suggestions from all are greatly appreciated as I see them as only making me more informed when setting this place up.

If I may share from my learning already taking place, the Electricity may be a stumbling block. I called the Electric Coop and they estimated $20,000 to run electricity overhead ($40,000 underground). I am trying to work something out for them to run part of the way on their dime making other land parcels more attrractive to draw future customers. Wish me luck on that one. 

Ed


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs
What you have should be fine. Over time you could convert to HT as you do maintenance to the existing fence. The HT does not have a lot of advantage over a proper barbwire fence when it comes to cattle. In wooded areas where limbs and occasionally a tree falls on the fence, the HT will spring back when the tree is removed whereas the barbwire often breaks. Not having to maintain a fence charger is sometimes a benefit. I do believe you have many lightening storms in your area and man has yet to design a fence charger than can survive such.


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## Gabriel

randyandmegs said:


> Agman, speaking of perimeter fence. We have 4 strand mostly 12.5 ga to 15.5 ga barbed wire that varies in condition based on the field location, but mostly in good shape. Currently it keeps the cows in just fine but they also don't have any reason to get out with all the forage we have. My question is.... Do I need to go back around and make a new perimeter in HT? If so I need details on how to do it as far as distance away from other fence, number of strands etc. The field in question is #5 that is 14.4 acres from post 1898.


If they do start testing it, there's no need to replace it, simply add one hot wire to it on the inside.


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## ramiller5675

Maka said:


> ...One other question. Currently there is about 15 acres of new wheat on the place....what are your suggestions for attempting to get the field turned into pasture. I was thinking first get a soil sample tested. Then attempt to make a deal with the leasing farmer to disc the field and spread lime. I do not know what he has been spreading on th eplace. Then later in the fall get something sowed out there. I figured I would work with the county extension agent to figure out what. Probably Ky Blue Grass, Clover, and perhaps some fescue mixed...


Just leave the wheat stubble after harvest, at least in my area there will usually be a volunteer stand of something like crabgrass in the summer after harvest. You can then either graze the stubble/crabgrass or bale it for hay. In the fall, just drill something like wheat into the stubble or you might also have a volunteer stand of something like ryegrass which you can graze over the winter along with any winter-killed crabgrass. 

Save the money you would have spent on seed that might not even grow in your field and spend it on fertilizer to thicken up any volunteer stands of grass. 

Once your cattle start making money, then you can spend the money on seed to fine-tune your pastures if your volunteer grasses aren't as productive as you think they should be.


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## HDRider

Does anyone have a link to a university paper, or can you say, what the optimum recuperative time by month between grazings for Fescue?


I wish people showed their location so we'd know if their advice fit. California, Florida or Canada advice is all quite different.


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## agmantoo

HDRider
Moisture is IMO the most controlling factor rather than time. Fescue is considered a cool season grass but my observation is that when ample water is available that fescue will grow nearly all year here in zone 7. January is the most dormant month for fescue during cold weather. Come the middle of Feb. it will start to green up marginally. Early March will allow enough growth for some minor grazing along with the remaining stockpiled grass. By mid to late March the dormancy period is over and the herd will be on new growth. April and May should be abundant growth with June tapering off. May and June is the period that I will start amassing fescue to extend the grazing into the drier hot months of July and August when typically there is minimal growth, especially if rain is lacking. As September arrives with some needed rain the Fescue will rebound. October and Nov with moisture will create an abundant growth and this is when I stockpile for Winter. December, with some warm days, will continue to promote limited growth and most conventional cattle producers will shift to hay around the 15th. During the above referenced months the paddocks sizes will vary along with the varied growth periods. From memory here is my best recall of the areas allocated by month for 100 brood cows and their offspring. Jan. stockpiled fescue 1/2 acre/day, Feb. stockpiled fescue 1/2 acre/day, Feb. some stockpiled fescue and ~3/4acre/day emerging fescue/day, Mar. 7/10 acre growing fescue/day, April 1/2 acre fescue/day. May1/2 fescue/day. June ~6/10 acre fescue/day. July ~7/10 acre of fescue, growing and stockpiled total/day. August 7/10 plus acre stockpiled fescue/day. September ~7/10 acre /day total stockpiled and new growth fescue. Oct 1/2 acre /day fescue, Nov 1/2acre /day fescue. Dec 1/2 acre fescue. All of the above are rough estimates but are very close to actual. In addition to the fescue grass, keep in mind that I have a strong growth of clovers and that my pasture is extremely productive in non drought times. 
The cattle will always let you know if they are not getting adequate forage. By observing their actions you will know when to give more area or to cut back.


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## randyandmegs

For any particular paddock during the growing season how long does it take you to get back to that same paddock, how long is that paddock rested in other words. During the dormant period and winter will they normally only will only graze that paddock once?


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## agmantoo

The easy to answer question first. During the dormant and Winter periods the paddocks only get a once over. If the weather conditions have not cooperated then I may have to run the herd over the area a second times due to lack of a better place to graze the herd.

As for the question *For any particular paddock during the growing season how long does it take you to get back to that same paddock, how long is that paddock rested in other words.* I am not certain that I can answer that with any accuracy. The conditions are seldom the same. There are too many variables. When adequate moisture and great growing temperatures exist I will have excessive growth in early Spring. I will cut the unneeded growth and let it decay in an attempt to keep the uncut portion of the plant growing. If need be I can return to a grazed area within 8 to 10 weeks. When good forage growing conditions do not exist it maybe 3 months or longer before the herd is allowed back on the area to regraze. I have disciplined myself to put the herd on the tallest grass even if it means I have to shift the animals a great distance over the farm. I believe that I have more forage available to cope with the changes of seasons and the variable growing conditions by always consuming the tallest forage regardless.


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## ufo_chris

I have a section of chain link that I want to make a drag to distribute manure out of. It is 3' wide and about 14' long.
I only have about 8 acres in pasture and usually around 6-8 head and I'd do smaller sections at a time.
Should I cut it in half and run the 2 7' sections side by side or leave it long? 
And this is probably a stupid question ,but to make sure, you do drag it from the short side (3')where it rolls up ,right?
Also, what is the best way to attach a bar? What size? We have plenty of scrap laying around to use.
Not sure what I'm gonna pull it with yet. Have a 50hp tractor but it'll have the brush hog attached, or a little lawn tractor (10hp) or I could use the woods Jeep.
Thanks for any info,
Chris


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## agmantoo

Chainlink fence drags work best IMO when the height, in your case 3 ft dimension (where it rolls), is toward the pull vehicle. Depending what you are using as a pull vehicle I would make the drag at least 9 feet and maybe 12 feet wide using three or four sections with each section 4.6 or 3 1/2 feet long. For the front bar I would try to get some of the bar stock, roughly 1/8" x 1", like is used at the end of each piece of chain link used in a fence next to the end posts. That bar stock will slide through the loops of the chain link fence. I would then use eye bolts to attach the drag to an oak 2" x 8" the width of the drag. Then I would use a long length of suitable chain to make a > shaped tongue to attach to the drag to the pull vehicle. On the underside of the chain link sections I would attach individual lengths of short 2" x 6" oak. One bard at the center and one at the rear of each section of chain link. I would bolt the 2" x 6" to the chain link. If you do not do this in time the chain link will want to curl. When you cut the 2" x 6" boards cut them where they butt in the center parts of the drag on a 45 degree cross direction so that you do not have gaps between the drag sections as you travel forward.


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## ufo_chris

Agmantoo, thanks so much, we'll get working on that then.


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## MarkM

My main forages where I am grazing now are fescue and ryegrass. The herd will overutilize the ryegrass and underutilize the fescue. Should I be doing anything differently. I think if I increase the paddock size the fescue will be eaten even less.


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## agmantoo

MarkM

Your cattle are demonstrating the same thing most animals do and that is they eat what they like best given a chance. With your cattle you are in control of what they eat and to the height they graze. Also notice that they have no comprehension about what they will eat tomorrow. That is where you come in. You allocate what and to the height along with assuring that there will be forage available in the future. As long as the herd has adequate healthy feed I would not concern myself as to their likes and dislikes. The ryegrass growth will taper off as the weather heats up and your dependence on fescue (with available rain) and legumes will increase


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## MarkM

agman,

I assume that, with the ryegrass being an annual and will not be regrazed this season, I should not be concerned if the herd grazes it all the way down.


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## Gabriel

MarkM said:


> agman,
> 
> I assume that, with the ryegrass being an annual and will not be regrazed this season, I should not be concerned if the herd grazes it all the way down.


The Rye and Fescue aren't distributed evenly then? How long is the Fescue that's left when you move them to the next pasture, and how short is the Rye?


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## MarkM

They are not evenly distributed. It varies, but if I leave the herd long enough to graze the fescue to half it's height (3-4 inch residual), they have grazed the ryegrass to an inch or less (from 3-4 inches).


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo: On building the lanes. Yesterday I removed about 1000' of 4 strand barbed wire (with t post every 8 feet) that used to be a boundary to woodland that was cleared 6-7 years ago and is now pasture. I now an abundance of t posts. I know this would not be first choice but considering I have all these on hand could I use these post somehow to create my lanes using HT? I used a post puller and only bent 3 post total so I could probably sell them just wondering on you thoughts.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

I would clean the tee posts where rust and dirt exists and then I would make a small trough where I could dip them with some preservative (maybe mobile home roof coating) prior to reusing them. On the lanes with good end posts you can pull the wire taut and the wire will readily stay off the conductive posts. Get the insulators with the small push in pin so that you can remove the hi tensile wire to create a "gate" when required.


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## agmantoo

MarkM said:


> agman,
> 
> I assume that, with the ryegrass being an annual and will not be regrazed this season, I should not be concerned if the herd grazes it all the way down.


I would not concern myself with the ryegrass. More of it will persevere than you may think. I even have the annual ryegrass coming back in future years. Whether this is from seeds or roots I am uncertain. The extension agent told me it was from seed falling from the atmosphere!


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## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> The extension agent told me it was from seed falling from the atmosphere!


Really? Really? What a dolt! I wish about a ton of Jumbo Annual Rye Grass would magically fall from the atmosphere on my pastures come early September - preferably right before a good soaking rain.

Wow and we pay these people?


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## ramiller5675

I don't know about it falling from the atmosphere, but the wind blows it in (at least on my wheat fields).

It is a weed in wheat (and had cost me a pile of money in herbicide, dockage, and reduced yields) and if there is any in the field at harvest it is blown out the back of the combine where the wind spreads it over a larger area. 

If a storm or a tornado comes up sometime before or after harvest, it picks up the seed and spreads it for miles. If it is in the ditches and the county comes by and mows the ditches, they pick it up and spread it up and down the road as they mow. It blows out of the back of trucks hauling wheat to the elevator, and it is picked up by the tires of equipment and spread wherever they travel.

Last year a tornado went through about 20 miles away, and small pieces of debris dropped all over our farm and canola came up in the summer from a field that had to be over 20 miles away. That seed had to come from the tornado because I've never seen any planted any closer.

So the extension agent was more right than you think.


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## SCRancher

Wow who would have thought thanks for the info!


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## Gabriel

Got back to just grazing (bale grazing previously) last week, thought I'd share.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo in reference to post 1897 I made the changes to add a lane. I can really start to see the benefits of having said lanes. They are coming Thursday to dig the well and start installing 2500 ft of water line. Im putting in 3 Ritchie 2 hole 28 gal waterers and freeze proof hydrants every 375 feet or so. Im running broilers behind the cattle. 









Doing the same across the road as well.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Looks good!

I do not understand how you will control the predators from eating the broilers.

On the hydrants. There are lots of manufacturers of hydrants and there is a lot of difference in the quality. Have you done any research to determine the best ones? You definitely want the main stem that goes from the handle to the valve to be a non corrosive material such as stainless steel. You will also want a valve that is serviceable from the top of the hydrant. I always install a post at the hydrant to support the hydrant. I drive the post then mount the hydrant and bring the piping to the hydrant. Put plenty of washed stone at the base of the hydrant to enable it to drain readily. Here is supposed to be a leader in hydrants http://www.merrillmfg.com/product/01-YardHydrants/C-1000/features.html


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## SCRancher

Here are the hydrants I use in my rotational grazing, I have no permenent watering stations instead I use a mobile cart.

Quick Coupler Valve Each


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## randyandmegs

This is our 3rd year of raising the pastured broilers. We have only had one instance of predation but that was my fault letting them free range. They are kept in whats called a Salatin style portable pen and moved daily. I also have electric netting if that ever becomes a problem. Im going to also try the Nite Eyes as well this year. Just behind my house in the top picture you can see one of the pens, they are 10X12. As for the hydrants I wish I would have asked your thoughts earlier. I ordered the Simmons 2 foot bury already and pick them up tomorrow. In case you ever need anything for the farm I have found some of the best pricing ever from the Sevier Farmers Co-op. They also have an office in Waynesville as well. The Ritchie CT2 are $459. I couldnt find them anywhere close to that price elsewhere. Everything was priced well below the allowed funds for the Ag Cost Share program so I dont have any out of pocket expenses.


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## randyandmegs

SCRancher said:


> Here are the hydrants I use in my rotational grazing, I have no permenent watering stations instead I use a mobile cart.
> 
> Quick Coupler Valve Each


I initially had them for my plan instead of the hydrant but I was worried about freezing but that may not have been an issue.


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## HDRider

Is anyone here familiar with Ribgrass?

In Andre Voisin's book "Grass Productivity" he rates it as the #1 forage in an index of palatability.

Does anyone have it growing in their pasture?

Ribgrass Plantain - a common weed but also a very useful herbal remedy.


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## MarkM

SCRancher said:


> Here are the hydrants I use in my rotational grazing, I have no permenent watering stations instead I use a mobile cart.
> 
> Quick Coupler Valve Each


SCRancher,

What does your cart look like? 

I have multiple water points using the Plasson quick connects. However, I still have to run hose to many of my daily breaks and dragging the hose is a chore, not to mention freezing ( we had a very mild winter, so it was not an issue this year).

I use a Rubbermaid trough with a Jobe mega flow valve.


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## SCRancher

HDRider said:


> Does anyone have it growing in their pasture?
> 
> Ribgrass Plantain - a common weed but also a very useful herbal remedy.


It's growing in my pastures.


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## SCRancher

MarkM said:


> What does your cart look like?


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/5174574-post1597.html

The link is from an earlier post showing my cart.

I drag the hose behind the cart (hook the quick connect to the wire holding the trough down) so the hose is doubled behind the cart. If I'm moving the cart more than a few feet I usually use an ATV.

I am going to be replacing the cart soon with a plastic cart as the metal one has rusted out over the almost 4 years it has been in service because one of the troughs I use to store their minerals in, the other is their water. The salt in the minerals has really done a number on the cart.

As for the hose freezing - yes it has occurred but in my area all day long solid freezes don't occur that often and I use a black hose so it absorbs the heat and usually melts a path which the ground temp water then widens so almost always by 2 or 3 water is flowing again.

I have never had one of the hydrants break from a freeze.


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## randyandmegs

SC Rancher- How many cattle do you have drinking from the watering tub and how is the water temp in the heat of the summer? That is a much more portable idea than what I had in mind and I like it.


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## gwithrow

so do the cows not push this arrangement over? but of course since they are moving daily, maybe they don't get bored and knock things about....this cart bears trying out!


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo- i was able to switch to the Merrill hydrants. $200 more for trading out 8 verus Simmons but Im all about doing it right the first time plus piece of mind. I thought about burying a 4x4 and mounting it to the side with c clamps as well as the stone for draining it.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Drill through the post and use 2 J bolts on each posts and tighten the bolts. On the back side of the post use a washer under the nut. Get the J bolts in the marine section to avoid rust. You may need to use a spacer between the pipe of the hydrant and the post to prevent bending the hydrant pipe. If you do not want to use the spacer just cut a relief in the post to allow the pipe to fit flush to the post.


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## SCRancher

randyandmegs said:


> SC Rancher- How many cattle do you have drinking from the watering tub and how is the water temp in the heat of the summer? That is a much more portable idea than what I had in mind and I like it.


Right now I have 13 cows and 8 calf's ages 8 months to 6 months drinking from the 1 cart. Since the cart is very close at hand all the time the cows typically visit it in manageable numbers. If not they stand around with some pushing and shoving waiting their turn but this is typically not an issue unless I get lazy and don't move the cart but let them back graze and then end up visiting the cart in numbers.

As for water temp - I have never really checked - it's not cool but it's not hot either - I think they drink enough during the heat of the day to keep the water at a manageable temp.


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## SCRancher

gwithrow said:


> so do the cows not push this arrangement over? but of course since they are moving daily, maybe they don't get bored and knock things about....this cart bears trying out!


My cows have never pushed the cart over - I'm sure they could - I have seen it moved from where I left it - once they pushed it out of their reach under a hot wire and when I checked on them the next day they were thirsty.


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## agmantoo

I believe based on observing my cattle that as the herd size increases that the establishing of the "pecking order" is tested more often. The waterers I have are bolted to a concrete pad and at times I am certain I would have issues with the waterers if they were not soundly affixed. Even when they are close to a waterer they often go drink in multiples and I still observe the cattle head butting for position. 5 or 6 cows wanting to drink from the same 2 hole waterer will challenge each other. When the herd happens to all go at once it can be a chaos. Imagine this number of cattle wanting to drink or access the mineral feeder at once.


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## gimpyrancher

Agman,

First I have to get my head around having such beautiful graze. That is a dream at this point. :bow:


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## SCRancher

Yea every time I think - hey I'm doing well - Agman posts another picture of his pasture that makes me see just how much more work I have to do.

I was thinking my 12-18 inch high clover/grass mix was doing well until you view agman's almost lost calf in the grass.


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## randyandmegs

Went and looked at a herd of 13 registered angus just now. I want everyones thoughts on. I will post pictures when I get home out of these mountains in Hot Springs NC


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## randyandmegs

What does the language I highlighted in red mean? 



Reg: AAA 15707933

This animal has one or more ancestors known to carry a mutation that can result in calves with a genetic defect known as Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM). The American Angus Association recommends DNA testing at an approved laboratory to confirm the absence or presence of the mutation.
No EPD information on file.


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## agmantoo

This information should cover all your questions.

http://www.angus.org/pub/AM/AMFactSheet.pdf


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## randyandmegs

Here are a few numbers I got today. Im not at all familiar with the American Angus registry website to know if this helps anyone or not. Every cow had that same message about Arthrogryposis Multiplex
15707933
15707932
16066045
" 46
" 47
" 48

As for the pictures. Most of them had bare patches of skin (it appeared) on their body somewhere. The pictures may not show it well. The owner said they are are shedding their winter coat but here are some picutres along with the information I could use some adivce on. They are all supposed to be bred and due within weeks to a month or so. 9 are registered 2 are PB, Price $1400 each for the registered, $1300 for the others.$13,500 will buy them all. 4


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## agmantoo

The cattle have lice and they are also shedding their Winter hair. Personally I am not impressed with them. You need to start off with good stock as your future heifers will probably be retained from your calves.


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## SCRancher

I'm not impressed with them either and I have PB Black Angus. Mine don't have any bare spots and never have.

I have learned a lot but still have a lot more to go but I would get a good hard look at the cows then check out their EDP's compared to breed average and make your judgement's on each cow as an individual. Then if your of a mind pick the one's you want.

If they all are AM potential then it's not great. I have a few with various potential genetic defects that I plan on testing to see if they are carriers. The AM is simply that somewhere in the past parentage there was a confirmed carrier of that genetic defect. It does not mean the cow IS an genetic carrier just that they are a potential carrier.


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## randyandmegs

Ok thanks for the input guys. Still learning on what to look for and also give us our best start. My gut feeling was that something was not right. Frame size was closer to what I want to get to as well as breed type and color. What is particular turns you off on these cattle as far as confirmation etc...


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## agmantoo

I disliked the confirmation of the animals and the lack of exhibiting the Angus breed desirable (IMO) characteristics. From the pics it also appears that some of the animals are getting old. You do not need to cripple your opportunities in going forward with anything less than ideal stock. The sale barn in Turnersburg can provide better animals that what you are seeing at the location pictured.


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## randyandmegs

He said they were all 4 year old. I didnt look that close on registry to confirm age. I worry about my ability to pick a mixed herd from a sale barn. This was at least a closed herd. If you have any farms around your area that you trust I could talk to let me know. Im looking to finsh a portion of my herd as I have a market already for that, same one that buys 900 broilers from me each year.


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## randyandmegs

On another note do I need to be mowing already. Im thinking its orchard grass that is already going to seed. I will post a picture afterwhile.


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## agmantoo

The following pic is an unregistered non purebred cow that I like. Notice how straight her back is and she has adequate length, the moderate size of her udder, the muscling of her shoulders, her girth is sized for her to be able to store a lot of forage, her tail is well positioned and her hindquarters are well muscled. This type of animal is capable of living off grass alone, she has never had any grain or supplemental feed in her lifetime. She should be productive for many years, efficient and maintenance free. All of these comments are my opinions of what work for me. Compare her to what you picture above and make the comparisons. Notice the animal in the background, a near mirror image.


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## SCRancher

Agman - really nice looking cow as you observed - I would love to see a picture from the rear to see the width.

RandyandMegs - here is a sample from last June of my cows. 
















This one is from August - mama and her day old calf.


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## myersfarm

JUST from my point of view Rags ...the cows pictured look old AND / OR uncared for....to me LICE come from cows that were not treated from LAST YEAR...this could be a single cow not treated last year added to a herd this year and most will get them or a herd that was not treated at all.....or from the neighbors cattle not treated

AT THESE CATTLE PRICES every body is wanting to sell there cows for more than they are worth...and most are wanting to put 20 cows together from somewere and sell as a group for a newbie it is hard to figure 10 cows for $18000 but have one in there that has to be cull this year


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## myersfarm

one more point WHY are the cows in such bad shape eating in a field with grass that tall...to me because they have not been there long he bought and wants to sell quick so he can do it again


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## Gabriel

The seller is dishonest, even if you could overlook the herd problems... I wouldn't buy from someone who'll lie like that.


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## Karin L

I would stay away from these cows, from the looks of them. Lice, terrible toplines among other things, and like others mentioned, they look a bit older than four years of age. 

Agman and SCR, very nice animals!


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## randyandmegs

A lot easier to see the difference when looking at the pictures of the other cows. What can I expect to pay for cattle such as these in the pictures or heifers to get to this point. Today the well was dug and Monday Im having 2800' of water line installed. I currently have 2 bottle raised red angus steers that are about 1 year old around 500lb, 1 jersey steer that is 1 year old, 2 bulls that are coming a year, one of which will be castrated soon and finished next summer. 1 registered red angus herd bull turning 4, 1 red angus heifer about 9 months old and 1 newborn steer. I plan to sell all but the bull I will be finishing. With the profit plus 5K in grant money and some savings I should have about 10k-13k to spend on my start up herd. With that being said I really dont want to screw this up....


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## randyandmegs

randyandmegs said:


> On another note do I need to be mowing already. Im thinking its orchard grass that is already going to seed. I will post a picture afterwhile.












Here is the grass I was talking about earlier today that is already going to seed. Looks like orchard to me.


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## agmantoo

Is it essential to go with registered cows?


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## randyandmegs

No just functional. My goal is to only finish a few to see how large that market ends up being. Otherwise as you described, small frame efficent cattle, that will cycle as they should and that will excel in the managed rotaional grazing system with calves that will be sold at market for the types of cows that the market demands. Registered would have been a plus to give me another selling point but not required by any means. Just best way to build my herd as quickly as possible but still start with a solid foundation.


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## agmantoo

Occasionally there will be a local producers combined sale of conditioned feeder calves sold separate from the regular Monday sale at Turnersburg. I do not know if that is or will the the case any time soon. Your extension agent should be able to verify if there is a planned sale as the extension office is typically the one responsible for organizing the sale.
If you could locate some heifers in the 650 weight range you could have some calves on the ground next Spring. With the commercial heifers being sold at market value your budget would let you get a few more head over registered stock.


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## randyandmegs

So that place is just north of you a bit. I just pulled up the site and we use the same owner (Marcus Harward) at Chesnee Stockyard. They have the same reports for Chesnee on their site. http://chesneestockyard.com Looks like the prices at Chesnee are a bit higher for some reason. If you have a chance look at some of their market reports and see what you think. We have not had a dedicated cattle agent for our county in 3 years and our Cattlemans Association shut down. I did hear they just hired a new person but he will now have 4 counties, Bumcombe (Asheville) being one of those. I have never heard of one of those sales around here but Chesnee may have one. I will check to see. Otherwise, would you suggest I go to the sale and look for black heifers in that weight range? They do have a few bred cows that come through but not many and I would imagine they are being sold off for a reason.
Thanks as always for the help.


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## myersfarm

RANDY On another note do I need to be mowing already. Im thinking its orchard grass that is already going to seed. I will post a picture afterwhile

looks like Orchard grass also I would not mow let the cows when you buy eat it down....or let it go to seed...I wish I had Orchard grass every were it was shaded.....a neighbor ..has fields of Orchard grass and red clover he bales and sell for a good price every year


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

I did not have any direct views from the rear however I tried to take one today. My cattle do not like for a person to approach them closely from the rear. They just move away and I was not able to get much of a picture. I will try to get a better pictures soon. This will have to do for now. They are starting to shed their Winter coat and they have been in the mud.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo - that's what I was looking for - nice wide rear ends - I have seen a few cattle that look great from the side then you look at them from the back end and they are a little flat looking - not these - these scream BEEF!

The pictures I posted above were from last June - August so I thought I would post recent pictures for Randyandmegs. These were 2 days ago.
The cattle have only been on the lush grass for about 2 weeks - prior to that they were eating Hay and then picking through my woods so IMO while they are not think they are not as full fleshed as they will be in another month of lush graze.

Heard Bull:









6 Month old Bull Calf (for sale BTW):









Backside of a random cow:









Side View of same random cow:


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## SCRancher

On to a different topic - well constructed high tensile fence with spring tensioners and proper installation where the wire easily slides through the holders.

The storms the other night downed a large branch onto my perimeter fence - here is what it looked like.









Lucky for me I didn't have to break out the chain saw as it was a rotten old limb and snapped in the right place so all I had to do was push the pieces away. After pushing them away with absolutely NO work on the fence here is the picture.









How did I find out I had a tree down on my fence? My Stafix Fence Compass that I use to turn my fence on and off from anywhere on the property I can reach the fence told me I had a short.









So far I have never had a cow or calf get out of my perimeter fence while I'm constantly seeing my neighbors calf's and occasionally cows out of their either barbed wire or poorly constructed electric fences.

I'm sure my day of chasing cows down the road are coming as I have not been in this game very long but I think a well constructed high tensile electric fence goes a long way in reducing my labor in fixing and chasing cows.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo: Do you suggest that I need to start clipping already. Im not up and running by any means but with the warm winter I have grasses already going to seed. I posted a picture of some of the grasses the other day. My well is completed but that is about it. Im waiting to build the lane until the water line is put in which should be later this week. I havent purchased any more cattle either so when I do get going I willl only have 4 steers and 1 heifer grazing. Just concerned that if I dont start clipping this grass quality is going to start going down hill. I think I may have posted some other questions for you as well earlier but Im sure like everybody else you are busy with all this flush of growth.


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## Dieselrider

agmantoo said:


> Karin L
> The Certified Angus Beef, CAB, has done a thorough job of convincing the consumer that there is an advantage in the meat. This demand will generate a $50 to $60 premium per feeder calf at market time for my farm. In a good year this is $4000 plus of "found" money". I have stated previously that on a level playing field that I personally prefer the color of the shorthorn breed. I am beginning to like the Murray Grey somewhat silver color as I am getting more calves recently from the bull that I raised from the crossed cow. I will not debate breeds as I am unqualified. However, if you are going to go to a grass based rotational grazing production it in itself will mandate the type animal you own. The animals that will excel off the grass based method will not be available in certain breeds but you should be able to get the color of your preference. I do know for fact you need a small framed cow weighing in around 1050 lbs, actually it is essential to have the cows to be in the frame 3 size and not to exceed frame 4. The cow needs to be only a modest milk producer. She has to be able to maintain her condition off whatever forage your farm produces best over a long time period, adequately feed her calf and return to breeding condition within 2 months of birthing. You may need to start churning this description of the females to make up your herd and see what breeds could fall within the restrictions. Be it red or black it will be a breed that is angus based somewhere in its background.



I am trying to get caught up on this thread but, honestly I don't know that I will likely ever do so as more is being added all the time. I would like to ask this though before I go back to reading way back there. 

Agman, from what you give as a description of the "type" of beef cow should be used in a rotation grazing operation, how do Dexters fit in? From what very little I know of them they get about the right weight for a cow. Thanks


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## HDRider

ramiller5675 said:


> I've always thought that the most interesting aspect of the sort of MiG being discussed here was the idea of having a centralized lane containing a few watering points which allows an awful lot of flexibility in sizing the paddocks to fit the daily grazing needs of the cattle.
> 
> I don't see any sort of lane in your drawing. I also don't see the need for three hot wires on an interior fence (maybe an exterior perimeter fence?), one hot wire should be able to hold in anything as long as you have a quality energizer and will let you "open up" a gate anywhere in the fence by lifting or lowering the single wire.
> 
> I would rather spend my money on a few strategically placed water lines if possible, instead of on extra unneeded wires.


I went back and drew it with lanes.


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## myersfarm

I am not Agman but I would on the field at top of page I would run the lane north and south with jusy ONE LANE the red lines going east and west....would be easier get the cows into the small pens...just one lane and same size but longer norrower pens....easier to put water in also in MHO


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## HDRider

myersfarm said:


> I am not Agman but I would on the field at top of page I would run the lane north and south with jusy ONE LANE the red lines going east and west....would be easier get the cows into the small pens...just one lane and same size but longer norrower pens....easier to put water in also in MHO


I LIKE it. Thanks Myers


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## SteveO

Not agman either but the lower left field you could use just 1 waterer. Not knowing the scale Agmans magic number is no more than 800ft one way from the farthest point

Steve


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## agmantoo

HDRider

Seldom will two people do a task in the same manner. Let me make a few suggestions.

Determine the shortest easiest route(s) that you can travel without blocking any access or creating any obstacles. Use this path for lanes. Have as many unencumbered strips of land as possible. Have these strips laid out like the old strip cropping methods employed. When servicing the pastures/paddocks enable travel to where turning equipment will occur only at the end of the strips. This will improve the efficiency of dealing with the chores. Run your single wire permanent fences to partition these strips. Keep the number of lanes to a minimum. Employ the strip fences to act as the lane where feasible. Try to use the perimeter fence, if possible; as one side of the lane to minimize the amount of fence to install. Lay the waterers out to where you get maximum use from each waterer. Realize that if the first waterer is 800 ft down the lane that the next one will be 1600 ft from the first. Waterers are expensive and there will be some maintenance so cut down the number of waterers used. None of these suggestions are a requirement. I have made a lot of mistakes and I have exhausted at lot of unnecessary efforts learning and correcting from these mistakes. To me, taking down fence is harder than putting it up.


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## agmantoo

Dieselrider

I have almost no familiarity with Dexter cattle. The few Dexters that I have seen indicate to me that they are more related to dairy than to beef cattle. Cattle that are closer to dairy breeds do not seem to carry or hold their weight off stockpiled forages or lower quality grasses that exist during some seasons. Dual purpose breed cattle do not put gain on as rapidly as beef animals. Not knowing whether your preference is for more beef less milk or the reverse also impacts what I might suggest. Personally, I think for me that if I wanted small animals I would attempt to locate animals of Angus breeding from times past. Then, if I wanted milk, I would tame one of these as I would not be needing a lot of milk. I know that I do have one such animal in my herd. She is small, stays in good body condition all the time, breeds regularly, produces a great calf and seems to give adequate milk and weighs roughly 875 to 900 lbs. I do not know her breeding but I do keep all her heifer calves. Here is a pic


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## ycanchu2

Agmantoo,
That's great looking grass. A couple of questions. I have some pastures that I hate to say have been continuous grazed/ overgrazed for years in the past. I am setting up this year to intensive graze all my fields, instead of the more passive rotating that I used to do. So there are spots in some of my fields that have the great looking grass around the manure piles and then in between the grass just seems to get up a couple of inches and just sits there. Idon't like to use commercial fertilize and haven't in years, however would a one time shot of ammonia nitrate sort of jump start some these dead spots I call them?
And Do you recommend lime to loosen up hard soils?
Thanks
Also is the above picture ryegrass or RG and Fescue do you sow that in the fall and / or does it just come up voluntarily?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

I always recommend taking soil samples and letting the results mandate what to use. It is essential to get the PH near correct IMO. I would like to know approximately where you live in order to know if I am qualified to make a recommendation. The PH should have been corrected months ago and predicated on where you live the fertilizer, based on a soil test, possibly should have been applied already. I think it is getting late to apply nitrogen south of USDA growing zone 7 at this time. 

The above pic is established fescue, planted in 1994, that was grazed short and broadcast seeded last Fall with Marshall ryegrass @14 lbs/acre. The PH taken last Fall at that location is only 5.7 and no commercial fertilizer has been applied in over 5 years. I will apply lime here the next time I can justify a delivery. The entire farm currently is needing only 1.7 tons! There is some Orchard grass that volunteered mixed in. I have never sowed any Orchard grass so I have no idea of where it came from.


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## Dieselrider

agmantoo said:


> ycanchu2
> 
> I always recommend taking soil samples and letting the results mandate what to use. It is essential to get the PH near correct IMO. I would like to know approximately where you live in order to know if I am qualified to make a recommendation. The PH should have been corrected months ago and predicated on where you live the fertilizer, based on a soil test, possibly should have been applied already. I think it is getting late to apply nitrogen south of USDA growing zone 7 at this time.
> 
> The above pic is established fescue, planted in 1994, that was grazed short and broadcast seeded last Fall with Marshall ryegrass @14 lbs/acre. The PH taken last Fall at that location is only 5.7 and no commercial fertilizer has been applied in over 5 years. I will apply lime here the next time I can justify a delivery. The entire farm currently is needing only 1.7 tons! There is some Orchard grass that volunteered mixed in. I have never sowed any Orchard grass so I have no idea of where it came from.



That orchard grass would be in the seed bed already existing in your soil. I have seen farms turned around from a weed and thistle patch by just adding lime and having cattle graze the grass that comes up and occasional mowing. There are probably many native grass seeds in the soil that can germinate if the soil has what it needs, conditions are right and they are allowed to grow. Your Fescue may be holding many back. 

I do agree that the soil test is the first step in learning just what your soil needs.


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> I don't like to use commercial fertilize and haven't in years, however would a one time shot of ammonia nitrate sort of jump start some these dead spots I call them?


I always recommend against using synthetic nitrogen, it doesn't provide nitrogen directly, it converts the organic matter already there into an available form (of nitrogen). Basically, it can be thought of as a withdrawal from your savings account for a short term gain. It's also hard on your beneficial critters, such as worms. I took over my current lease last year and it had the same situation you describe. Some completely bare spots and many more permanently low spots. I planted nothing, added no fertilizer, didn't disk/till etc... and this year, plants are growing there. Also remember, a dollar saved is ~$1.30 earned. Inputs should only fill the gaps that management and time cannot.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs said:


> Here is the grass I was talking about earlier today that is already going to seed. Looks like orchard to me.


With your current head count and the abundant grass you have obviously there is going to be a surplus for grazing. I mow fescue to minimize the endophyte that concentrates in the seed head and to prevent the fescue from going dormant. I can prolong the grazing period of the fescue if it is prevented from making seed. As for the orchard grass and any volunteer rye grass if I did not need the grazing I probably would let it go to seed then clip/mow. I would be clipping it then to put organic matter over the fallen seed and to minimize thatch buildup. Do NOT give the forage to someone for their harvesting it. You would be removing your future forages availabe fertility.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo: How are your waterers set up/configured in your lane? I have to install 3 Ritchie 2 hole models in the next few days. I plan to have all the lines buried and the waterers mounted on the concrete then build the lane around it. From post 1991 how wide do you suggest making the lanes? I know you have posted the width in the past but this thread is so long now I cant find it.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

I do not put the concrete and waterer on top of the main water line. I install a Tee in the main line and then run a short water line horizontally and install a ball valve. From the ball valve I convert to PEX pipe and run that horizontally over to where the waterer will be positioned. The PEX is curved upward through a homemade ground heat tube that is under the concrete slab and then affixed to the valving in the waterer. I use this setup to enable me to cutoff the water underground below frost depth and to isolate the waterer from the main supply line and yet have the main supply still feeding other water delivery points. Again I put a homemade heat tube over the ball valve and a lid over the heat tube. This enables me to access the ball valve easily if I need to service the waterer or to just shut the water off to a particular waterer. I do not want to disturb the main line once it is in. I do not want to have to move the concrete slab once it is positioned. My method lets me access the cutoffs and service the waterer without any digging or shutting off water to the rest of the system. The PEX would tolerate freezing in rare occasions should the waterer itself not provide enough insulation. The main line and the ball valve should be deep enough to prevent freezing.
As for the width of my paddocks I actually have 2 sizes, 40 feet and 60 feet wide. I also was uncertain what size I wanted. I was trying to get the width where a spreader truck could readily make a down and back pass and cover lane fence to lane fence efficiently. When I have lime or litter spread even with the permanent partition fences the drivers are always complimenting on how convenient it is to spread at my place. I overheard two drivers that were what they thought was out of earshot talking about where they were going next to spread and one commented "the country club". Both showed up at my place. Made me feel good!


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## randyandmegs

Where is the HT in reference to the waterer for example are the waterers centered in the lane? I also use white Pex above ground that goes to my pastured poultry pens to supply the automatic waterers and I just replace the pipe each year so I am familiar with it. With the Ag Cost share and the deal I got from the Co-op I was allowed enough money to buy the 24" thermal tubes along with the waterers. To change the subject in thinking about you handling facilities, what all treatments do you do if any with your herd as far as vaccinations and worming? I know nothing has been done with our cattle in several years and we have not had any issues but my grandfather also didn't have the help then to manage them to be able to do anything. A man at the Co-op told me I needed to "feed the cattle and not the worms" to which I replied most of cows will weigh a minimum of 1700 lbs and up so I'm not that concerned with the cows not getting the nutrition they need. Just thought of another question.... When do you expect to need to start clipping the fescue? I know this is a weird year weather wise but when do you typically see the fescue start to go to seed? What Im looking for at least this year is to show a comparison to my family the fields on our place that will get clipped well after they have seeded versus keeping the fescue in a growing state. From what I have read, in addition to keeping the fesuce growing the endophyte has and effect on fertility and early pregnancy problems.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> I always recommend against using synthetic nitrogen, it doesn't provide nitrogen directly, it converts the organic matter already there into an available form (of nitrogen). Basically, it can be thought of as a withdrawal from your savings account for a short term gain. It's also hard on your beneficial critters, such as worms. I took over my current lease last year and it had the same situation you describe. Some completely bare spots and many more permanently low spots. I planted nothing, added no fertilizer, didn't disk/till etc... and this year, plants are growing there. Also remember, a dollar saved is ~$1.30 earned. Inputs should only fill the gaps that management and time cannot.


Yea I agree with what you are saying. The nitrogen accelerates the bio-activity and breaksdown the humus at a very fast rate. I think what most of us is living with now is 30 or 40 years of that when fertilize was 200 bucks a ton. Now the OM is almost gone . I see neighbors fields that get fertilized and they don't look much better than mine just darker from all N


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> Here is the grass I was talking about earlier today that is already going to seed. Looks like orchard to me.


Looks like cheat grass...we have it here in ky, it looks like ryegras untill it heads out then sort of like oats, orchard grass seed head wiil be in little clumps. but I can't see the picture real clear.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs said:


> Where is the HT in reference to the waterer for example are the waterers centered in the lane? I also use white Pex above ground that goes to my pastured poultry pens to supply the automatic waterers and I just replace the pipe each year so I am familiar with it. With the Ag Cost share and the deal I got from the Co-op I was allowed enough money to buy the 24" thermal tubes along with the waterers. To change the subject in thinking about you handling facilities, what all treatments do you do if any with your herd as far as vaccinations and worming? I know nothing has been done with our cattle in several years and we have not had any issues but my grandfather also didn't have the help then to manage them to be able to do anything. A man at the Co-op told me I needed to "feed the cattle and not the worms" to which I replied most of cows will weigh a minimum of 1700 lbs and up so I'm not that concerned with the cows not getting the nutrition they need. Just thought of another question.... When do you expect to need to start clipping the fescue? I know this is a weird year weather wise but when do you typically see the fescue start to go to seed? What Im looking for at least this year is to show a comparison to my family the fields on our place that will get clipped well after they have seeded versus keeping the fescue in a growing state. From what I have read, in addition to keeping the fesuce growing the endophyte has and effect on fertility and early pregnancy problems.




I offset the location of the water about 15 feet from one side of the lanein order to create a wide clear path on the other side to allow the movement of the drag harrow around the waterer without any danger of hitting the waterer. I also mound the earth roughly 8 inches high and ~12 feet in diameter under the concrete slab to allow rain water to run away from the waterer. Using creek sand works OK for the mound but I do have to rebuild the mound from time to time as the cattle's feet will create pockets in the mount. At this time I am considering what to use to hold the mound material in place. 

My herd is a closed herd and I do not vaccinate and I only worm animals that exhibit a need. Not using a 5 way vaccination could be a mistake but thus far I have not had a problem. All cattle have parasites but healthy cattle seem to tolerate some parasites. As I have stated previously, India has lots of cattle and no one worms them. Older cattle build up a resistance IMO. You do need to keep watch on the younger animals. The more paddocks and the less frequently you return to a paddock helps from my observation. 

The growth of fescue will dictate when I start mowing. Just observe the seed shoot and when you see the head forming get the mower out. Endophyte does have its issues but you need to get a herd established that can tolerate fescue. I know of no other grass that has as many benefits for rotational grazing and can survive varying weather conditions. I do not have a fertility problem nor do I have any pregnancy problems that I am aware of having. You do need to source your cattle from an area where the animals were on fescue. I saw some nice heifers sold at the sale in Stanley county last week. Though expensive compared to past years they were priced attractively for the current market. I believe that I have mentioned this previously but my recommendation is for you to contact an order buyer and tell him what you are looking for and let him assist in your selection. His fee should be modest and his ability to assess an animal in a matter of seconds cannot be exceeded.


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## myersfarm

I thought that it was CHEAT GRASS ALSO....but did not have a good enough picture to make that call.....but then i looked closer it looked more like the orchard grass in my field seed heading now and in my area the cheat grass waits a bit longer.......hoping it is orchard grass




ycanchu2 said:


> Looks like cheat grass...we have it here in ky, it looks like ryegras untill it heads out then sort of like oats, orchard grass seed head wiil be in little clumps. but I can't see the picture real clear.


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## randyandmegs

It is Orchard grass that is going to seed now. My question from earlier is what month does the fescue go to seed for our area typically? I bought the book Southern Forages so I'm trying to learn to identify all the different type of grasses. I think this is the first but I may be wrong about mentioning the order buyer. So I need to call the sale barn to find out who does it there I'm assuming? The same owners of your local auction are owners of mine as well and I watch the auction on line on Tuesdays, with mostly the same buyers each week buying 90% of the cattle. Comparing cattle prices to other areas Chesnee seems to be one of the highest, unfortunately for me.


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## randyandmegs

*At this time I am considering what to use to hold the mound material in place*

Im required to use 55 sqyd of geotextile fabric cover by 15 ton of crusher run per waterer. The Farmers Co-op in Waynesville has a lot of the fabric in stock at a great price.


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## agmantoo

My cattle manage to shift whatever I have used to date away from the waterer. I find stones far larger (think baseball size) than I ever imagined that they would move as much as 100 feet from where I put them initially. I also used the geotextile fabric. I am now trying to find something to use as a curbing to hold the stone in place. If I could locate a very thick heavy mat made from something like recycled heavy truck tires I would consider that also.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> ycanchu2
> 
> I always recommend taking soil samples and letting the results mandate what to use. It is essential to get the PH near correct IMO. I would like to know approximately where you live in order to know if I am qualified to make a recommendation. The PH should have been corrected months ago and predicated on where you live the fertilizer, based on a soil test, possibly should have been applied already. I think it is getting late to apply nitrogen south of USDA growing zone 7 at this time.
> 
> The above pic is established fescue, planted in 1994, that was grazed short and broadcast seeded last Fall with Marshall ryegrass @14 lbs/acre. The PH taken last Fall at that location is only 5.7 and no commercial fertilizer has been applied in over 5 years. I will apply lime here the next time I can justify a delivery. The entire farm currently is needing only 1.7 tons! There is some Orchard grass that volunteered mixed in. I have never sowed any Orchard grass so I have no idea of where it came from.


I wasn't aware that I didn't have my location and zone in my profile, that's fixed now. Thanks for all your patience with me and the rest of us on here, you are a true inspiration to myself and I'm sure many others on here. One of my problems is that I seem to have to do all the dumb things before I learn to do the smart things. Like last year, I cut my fall hay way up in Oct. thinking I was getting more growth, when I should have cut it no later than the middle of Sept.
my hayfields have been what I stockpiled fescue on. So I didn't get as much stockpiled as I could have, though I did have some. Also, it is possible to overgraze the stockpiled fields if too much backgrazing is allowed like I did, not having the proper fencing in place, and a warm winter which allowed the fescue to jump up 2 or 3 inches in Jan and Feb. and cows just keep coming back and eating off.
Question: do you think it is possible to go year round grazing in one year or do you think it would take 2 or 3 years with feeding less and less hay each year. In the book " Kicking the Hay Habit" he says one year for everymonth you are feeding hay now to transition.
Thanks
P.S The farm that I was refering to has a Ph in the mid 6's range, it just seems sluggish but it is probably where I overgrazed in late winter.


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## agmantoo

*Question: do you think it is possible to go year round grazing in one year or do you think it would take 2 or 3 years with feeding less and less hay each year.*

I do doubt that a person can transition in a single year. What seems initially to be a simple thing to accomplish was not that easy for me. I did have reservations as to whether it was possible to go through an entire year. That uncertainty and the recognized fact that no one else that I knew was doing it. With commercially fertilized paddocks and good Fall weather on a great stand of fescue newbies still lack the confidence that experience will build. That confidence coupled with the success from making it further into the Winter will develop the needed experience to see a rotational grazer through a complete year. I view it as the harmony of getting in tune with the season, the forage available, proper allocation of that forage, understanding the needs of the cattle and foreseeing the requirements and manner both current and future feed requirements will be met with the forage remaining. 

With the animals in good body condition as Winter approaches, going through Winter becomes easier. From zone 7 south, our Winters do not mandate the energy needs of those farther North. The energy needs of my cattle can be met with the stockpiled fescue. If I am running short of stockpiled fescue I will not allocate more than the herd needs to maintain them. I know in nature that in some years animals will have a more difficult time than in years of plenty. Dropping some minor body condition is not an issue IMO. I know that when Spring arrives that the animals will recover quickly from compensatory gain. I actually think this weight cycle could contribute to heat cycling and fertility improvement. I almost never have a cow that fails to settle.


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## thestartupman

Property Layout | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## thestartupman




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## thestartupman

why do my photos not show up on here?


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## thestartupman

Sorry I am trying to upload a picture of my farm so I might get some help.


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## thestartupman

Okay, I finally got a photo up, now I will have to try and retype my questions that were deleted. I have a 80 acre farm that is shown in the previous post that I am hoping to get some help with setting up rotational graising on. I have only had this farm for a couple of months now, but here is a discription of whats on the picture. The black lines are the fencing that is already on the property. They are in pretty good shape, and cattle tight. The two blue spots are the cattle ponds that I have been told will hold water all year. The small blue dot behind the home is where the well is located. The rusty colored object is showing the valleys in the property that only have seasonal creeks. The water seems to flow for about a week after a heavy rain. The red zig-zag lines are showing parts of the property with steeper slopes. I can drive a tractor up them, but can't drive parrallel to them. Any help I can get with how to set this property up to rotationsl graze, and get water to the cattle would be great. The property is about 1300' x 2550'. Any other info I can give to help to know more about the property, I would be glad to give. Thanks


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## agmantoo

Will this be a for profit operation or hobby? I noticed that you have a lot of wooded area. Are you opposed to doing some minor clearing? What agriculture growing zone are you in? Will you be using the barn during the Winter as a central area for feeding hay or will you try for year round rotational feeding using stockpiled forage?


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## thestartupman

Yes, I will be running this as a for profit operation. I know it will take me a while to get to where I want to be as far as being profitable. I don't mind doing some clearing of the wooded areas, but also don't want to level the place. Zone 6B. I will probably have to have a central feeding area to start with, but plan too go to year around rotational feeding if possible. Just a couple other notes. In the picture, the well is marked in blue just behind the house. The building to the right as you drive up the drive, is a garage. The building further behind the house and well is a three sided building, and behind it near the first group of trees is another barn that is hard to see for the arial view.


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## CesumPec

I would greatly appreciate any advice you may have on setting up my farm. It's 168 acres, very poor sandy soil.










The north (top of the map), west, and most of the southern side is national forest, which was why we picked this location. The cut out in the center of the southern side is my only close neighbor. There is an existing 8 inch well (for the former orange grove which died out in 3 frosty winters in the early 1980s) located right near where the house is set to go (near the "105" point map center). The boxes in the northwestern corner (west to east) are representational of set asides for pigs in forest (2 acres), gardens (2 acres), and orchard (4 acres). I have the orchard space just about cleared but the rest of the 40 acre northwest square is still Florida jungle and I plan to leave it that way. Maybe one day I will have goats clear the rest of that jungle space. Most of the property, about 100 acres, is a longleaf pine plantation that will be 50% harvested in the next couple of months and made into silvapasture. 

The existing road on the east side of the house is a bit further south and the existing road on the western side of the house is right along the northern border. This map is what was proposed by the architect but she doesn't know anything about pastures. She picked the road paths for aesthetics. I'll end up putting the roads where where pastures, security, aesthetics, and trees provide a best use of the land.

The only settled items on the map are the house site and the orchard. The house (construction begins in a few months) is sited on the highest point of land and is near the exiting power lines and well. The orchard was the best spot of land to get ready to put in a cover crop this year and plant fruit trees next year. The equipment barn and stable can shift somewhat but need to remain somewhat close to the house and power lines.

I want to rotational graze cattle and horses. The horses need to come back to the stables each evening and will spend the nights on a dry lot to protect the grasses as much as possible. The cattle can live west of the house site and have about 50 - 60 acres to rotate across. My thoughts are to run a ?2? inch water line (marked in blue) the length of the property along the line of the ridge. With a tap every 200 feet or so I would have water for irrigating pastures and animals. 

The horses would have about 15 - 20 acres east of the house and could possibly be moved to the western side if needed for access to fresh grass. 

Without good management, irrigation, and purchased hay, it takes ~4 acres to support one large animal. With rotation and water I can probably get that down to about 2 acres per. The sand just doesn't provide strong support for the roots to grab hold so livestock often tear the plant out root and all. Each pasture has to rest longer and I've got to increase the amount of perennial peanut and bahai (per the county extension agent) to strengthen the soil structure. It will no doubt take a a few years to get to highly productive pastures.

Thoughts? Questions? Snide remarks? Rude gestures? 

Once again, your assistance is greatly desired and appreciated.


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## ArmyDoc

CesumPec said:


> I would greatly appreciate any advice you may have on setting up my farm. It's 168 acres, very poor sandy soil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The north (top of the map), west, and most of the southern side is national forest, which was why we picked this location. The cut out in the center of the southern side is my only close neighbor. There is an existing 8 inch well (for the former orange grove which died out in 3 frosty winters in the early 1980s) located right near where the house is set to go (near the "105" point map center). The boxes in the northwestern corner (west to east) are representational of set asides for pigs in forest (2 acres), gardens (2 acres), and orchard (4 acres). I have the orchard space just about cleared but the rest of the 40 acre northwest square is still Florida jungle and I plan to leave it that way. Maybe one day I will have goats clear the rest of that jungle space. Most of the property, about 100 acres, is a longleaf pine plantation that will be 50% harvested in the next couple of months and made into silvapasture.
> 
> The existing road on the east side of the house is a bit further south and the existing road on the western side of the house is right along the northern border. This map is what was proposed by the architect but she doesn't know anything about pastures. She picked the road paths for aesthetics. I'll end up putting the roads where where pastures, security, aesthetics, and trees provide a best use of the land.
> 
> The only settled items on the map are the house site and the orchard. The house (construction begins in a few months) is sited on the highest point of land and is near the exiting power lines and well. The orchard was the best spot of land to get ready to put in a cover crop this year and plant fruit trees next year. The equipment barn and stable can shift somewhat but need to remain somewhat close to the house and power lines.
> 
> I want to rotational graze cattle and horses. The horses need to come back to the stables each evening and will spend the nights on a dry lot to protect the grasses as much as possible. The cattle can live west of the house site and have about 50 - 60 acres to rotate across. My thoughts are to run a ?2? inch water line (marked in blue) the length of the property along the line of the ridge. With a tap every 200 feet or so I would have water for irrigating pastures and animals.
> 
> The horses would have about 15 - 20 acres east of the house and could possibly be moved to the western side if needed for access to fresh grass.
> 
> Without good management, irrigation, and purchased hay, it takes ~4 acres to support one large animal. With rotation and water I can probably get that down to about 2 acres per. The sand just doesn't provide strong support for the roots to grab hold so livestock often tear the plant out root and all. Each pasture has to rest longer and I've got to increase the amount of perennial peanut and bahai (per the county extension agent) to strengthen the soil structure. It will no doubt take a a few years to get to highly productive pastures.
> 
> Thoughts? Questions? Snide remarks? Rude gestures?
> 
> Once again, your assistance is greatly desired and appreciated.


I'm not Agmantoo, but I've been doing a fair amount of work towards converting our timber to silvopasture, so maybe I can help/make some suggestions too. I can't see the picture here at work, but I will take a look at it when I get home.

Regarding the conversion to silvopasture, several questions:

1)What is your current stocking - how old, howmany TPA etc?

2)Second, what pattern is your timber going to be cut to when converting to silvopasture- Block pattern, or 2 rows sepparated by 40ft of pasture, something else? If you are cutting in rows, try to orient your rows east to west to improve the sun availblility to the pasture.


3)What forage are you planning? You are too far south for fescue. Have you considered bahia grass and crimson clover? They are supposed to do well in a southern silvopasture setting.


----------



## CesumPec

1. where the longleaf pine will be converted to silvopasture it is about 25 years old. The trees will be sold for pulp at about $8 - 9 /ton. There are several plots (about 25 acres worth) of older / larger trees that won't get touched because the nearest ply mill closed last Novemeber for lack of demand. 

The longleaf is undersized for its age due to a lack of any serious management in that time. It was burned twice as best the rangers / foresters could guess. I've come in and mowed everything in the last year to cut down on competition from oaks, plums, and brush and to give the natural grasses a chance to grow. 

I don't know what "TPA" means. Most of the acreage is planted near perfect east-west but about 20 acres were planted north-south. There doesn't seem to be a difference in size. trees were planted generally every ft in rows 8 ft wide. 

2. pattern of timber cut is undetermined as of now. Where buildings and roads will go obviously means some small clear cuts. One forester suggested keep 2 rows, cut 3. But another suggested it would be better to be more selective and keep everything above 8 inches and forget about rows. I'm not sure how that would work for pasture improvement.

3. forage = perennial peanut, for those unfamiliar it is a legume, a Brazillian import for hot weather climes. It doesn't produce a peanut as we know it but it is great for soil building, high in nutrition and protein, and at the feed store today I was told it is selling for $13.50 / sq bale. Will also have bahia because it is already naturally occurring on the property and seems to do well where it can get enough sun.


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## ArmyDoc

Rather than hijack the rotational grazing thread, I'm going to cross-post this my old thread on silvopasture, and answer the silvopasture specific questions here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ca...zing-cattle-forest-setting-2.html#post5845488


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## agmantoo

thestartupman

I will get back to you soon. I am having to attend to something else for a few days.


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## thestartupman

Thanks Agmantoo, I appreciate the help.


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> I do not put the concrete and waterer on top of the main water line. I install a Tee in the main line and then run a short water line horizontally and install a ball valve. From the ball valve I convert to PEX pipe and run that horizontally over to where the waterer will be positioned. The PEX is curved upward through a homemade ground heat tube that is under the concrete slab and then affixed to the valving in the waterer. I use this setup to enable me to cutoff the water underground below frost depth and to isolate the waterer from the main supply line and yet have the main supply still feeding other water delivery points. Again I put a homemade heat tube over the ball valve and a lid over the heat tube. This enables me to access the ball valve easily if I need to service the waterer or to just shut the water off to a particular waterer.


Do you have any issues with the cattle stepping on the cover to the tube that has shut off in it? I bought 6" pvc with screw in type clean out caps on it. My installers don't want to install it that way worried the cows will break the caps or break the line under it by putting pressure on the pipe.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Get a precast concrete piece like goes over a culvert that is used for the casing of a bored well or look for something similar. I use some recycled metal pieces that resemble a manhole cover. You just need to distribute the weight of the animal to the soil surrounding the vertical pipe to prevent the pipe being driven downward. The concern I have is not the cow on the cap but a tractor. PS....septic tank fabricators have concrete panels they use to repair a tank where the top got broken when driven over.


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## agmantoo

Thestartupman

The red line is a proposal for a permanent lane. I attempted to employ as much of the existing perimeter fence as feasible to reduce building additional fence. An attempt to use what I believe to be an existing fair weather road from field to field and through the woods. I put it in a circle of sorts to enable getting back to the barn and to create some area south of the house as a separate place to have paddocks for a bull or heifers should you want to isolate them from the herd. This layout should also enable the hay fields to be dual purpose, hay or grazing.

The black lines I placed are single high tensile wire permanent interior fences. Polywire is to be used to further create allocated divisions within the areas. In some paddocks I did not show the permanent fence as I could not determine the best area to erect the fence and to isolate the woods. On site with the ability to see first hand where the ideal places exist the task should not be overly difficult.


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## gwithrow

we are in our third year of MIG, and last year we had a lot of lime spread....all good there....this spring, I can see the results, but I have a question about what is now growing out there...and where it came from..

we have what looks exactly like alfalfa only it has a small yellow flower...it is everywhere..I have not sown alfalfa at all, only fescue, Marshall rye and some clover seed..there is also a fair amount of vetch...the cows are fat and happy and moving fairly quickly thru their rotation...

our rainfall has been ok, not great, but so far adequate as is evidenced by the lush grasses and whatever else this yellow flowered thing is...

I have three questions: first is there a yellow flowered alfalfa? if so where did it come from?

how often should lime be spread, or how long do the effects of lime last?...ok, so I know I should get the soil tested...but I wondered how long what we did spread might last...

and most importantly: What should we be thinking of overseeding for summer grazing???


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## Gabriel

gwithrow said:


> and most importantly: What should we be thinking of overseeding for summer grazing???


Why would you over seed with anything? Is your forage that unproductive?


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## gwithrow

right now it is all lush and there is more than plenty for the animals to eat....but it seems that the clovers and vetch and the rye will fade as the heat comes on....maybe we don't need to do anything, but perhaps a better question is what offers the best summer, hot season grazing?


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

Look at page 26 and page 28 and tell me which of the yellow flowered plants you have.
http://www.aragriculture.org/weeds/slides/pasture_weed_control.pdf


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## Gabriel

gwithrow said:


> right now it is all lush and there is more than plenty for the animals to eat....but it seems that the clovers and vetch and the rye will fade as the heat comes on....maybe we don't need to do anything, but perhaps a better question is what offers the best summer, hot season grazing?


gwithrow, I just reread my prior post and realized that, at best, it was abrupt. Hope you didn't think I was being rude. 

There's a number of good grasses for the warm season, but if you have well established sod already, it's going to be tough to introduce a significant amount of a new variety. The big problem seems to be the cost/return ratio. Unless you are selling direct to the consumer and so need consistent, high growth rates, the investment simply isn't worth it. IMHO, the key to success is to be a "least cost producer", this will ensure that you make money in good times (like now) and bad.


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## agmantoo

gwithrow said:


> right now it is all lush and there is more than plenty for the animals to eat....but it seems that the clovers and vetch and the rye will fade as the heat comes on....maybe we don't need to do anything, but perhaps a better question is what offers the best summer, hot season grazing?


The easiest and best grazing for the upcoming hot weather will be what is growing now. For next year you may want to consider sowing so Red River crab grass shortly.

To maintain and enable you to get the most grazing from your current forage you need to establish a mowing regimen. Watch the fescue you have closely and each time it tries to grow a seedhead use your bushhog and clip the very top of the fescue off. A little pruning of the leaves of the plant is OK. Set aside enough fescue to feed during July and August and treat it as I described above.


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## gwithrow

agman: the leaves of the plants with the yellow flowers look like neither of the ones in that publication....the leaves look just like alfalfa, maybe lower growing....and small flowers...it might very well have been in the seed we put out in spots last fall....if it is black medic, is that considered a forage? it certainly seems to be prolific right now....it looks like we will be dusting off the bush hog shortly....and following the cows...


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## agmantoo

Black medic will be eaten by cattle and it is high in nitrogen. I would be cautious when feeding it as it can cause bloat. On poor soil I like to see medic growing. As soil improves I rather not have the medic. Some people consider it a weed but I have a problem making up my mind. The reason I posted the link to the other pics is that is what the pastures around here are covered with at this time. My neighbors have buttercup coving their pastures and I expect to see the seed coming onto my place.


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## myersfarm

If not on that link do a google search for .... HOP CLOVER..

https://www.google.com/search?q=hop...Q&biw=1095&bih=623&sei=c9mST7_gOM_62AXXk4WOBQ.

.it has a yellow flower short to the ground





gwithrow said:


> agman: the leaves of the plants with the yellow flowers look like neither of the ones in that publication....the leaves look just like alfalfa, maybe lower growing....and small flowers...it might very well have been in the seed we put out in spots last fall....if it is black medic, is that considered a forage? it certainly seems to be prolific right now....it looks like we will be dusting off the bush hog shortly....and following the cows...


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## myersfarm

Agman I have some of the buttercup starting this year....what are they using to get rid of it


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> we are in our third year of MIG, and last year we had a lot of lime spread....all good there....this spring, I can see the results, but I have a question about what is now growing out there...and where it came from..
> 
> we have what looks exactly like alfalfa only it has a small yellow flower...it is everywhere..I have not sown alfalfa at all, only fescue, Marshall rye and some clover seed..there is also a fair amount of vetch...the cows are fat and happy and moving fairly quickly thru their rotation...
> 
> our rainfall has been ok, not great, but so far adequate as is evidenced by the lush grasses and whatever else this yellow flowered thing is...
> 
> I have three questions: first is there a yellow flowered alfalfa? if so where did it come from?
> 
> how often should lime be spread, or how long do the effects of lime last?...ok, so I know I should get the soil tested...but I wondered how long what we did spread might last...
> 
> and most importantly: What should we be thinking of overseeding for summer grazing???


It could be yellow clover, but more likely it is korean lespedeza, I have it growing here....looks somewhat like clover or alfalfa, I would check to see if the cattle are eating it, if they aren't it could be buttercup, which they won't eat


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## gwithrow

the cattle are for sure eating it...they are knee deep in other things, but willingly ate some of this from my hand...I am leaning toward it being black medic, the pasture where it is growing has been pretty poor, and I have seeded a variety of things as well as chicken litter and lime....I suspect the seed for this as well as all the vetch was in with some of the rye or even fescue....as long as it covers the bare ground and the cows eat it, for now I won't worry about it...I may try my hand at a picture....


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## SuperDog

I would guess birds foot trefoil.


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## thestartupman

Thanks Agmantoo, I do have a couple questions though. On the permanent lane that you mention, what kind of fencing do you use, and how does it work with the cattle? Also, what would you do about water with the way you have it layed out? Thanks again for the help.


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## CesumPec

Agman - if possible, would you please go back and look at msg 2067? I would greatly appreciate any comments/critique you have to offer. I'm going to have loggers cutting in the next few weeks so I have to get my roads and grazing plan in place. Thanks


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## agmantoo

CesumPec

I have studied your posts and your drawing. I have read the replies from ArmyDoc. What you are wanting to accomplish is too overwhelming for me to assist. I do think the house site is in an ideal location. From that point I am afraid my position would differ greatly from yours. For example, I do believe the wild animals from the "Florida jungle" will consume the garden and the orchard. The wild hogs will keep the fence torn down as they try to get the feed and breed the domestic hogs. Disease is also a consideration. Placing the garden nearer the home for convenience and having the orchard on the slope near to home to minimize the impact of frost with the air movement would have merit. Locating the garden and orchard near the well would IMO also be a big plus.
My lack of knowledge of your location and the number of issues that are being discussed are outside my comfort zone and time allocation. I do wish you success with your project.


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## Gabriel

CesumPec said:


> Agman - if possible, would you please go back and look at msg 2067? I would greatly appreciate any comments/critique you have to offer. I'm going to have loggers cutting in the next few weeks so I have to get my roads and grazing plan in place. Thanks


As someone who makes a full time living from a farm, I encourage you to put the garden as close to the house as possible. I'm sorry that I can't offer more help. However, you might ask these folks, there's another thread already going about a Florida homestead.


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## agmantoo

thestartupman said:


> Thanks Agmantoo, I do have a couple questions though. On the permanent lane that you mention, what kind of fencing do you use, and how does it work with the cattle? Also, what would you do about water with the way you have it layed out? Thanks again for the help.


*For the permanent lane when it is standing alone I use nothing but a single high tensile wire on each side. When running adjacent to a permanent perimeter fence I use that fence and just erect a single fence to create the lane. I try to put a good usually wood post on each end of each straight run. Never try to run high tensile wire in a curve. Just use short straight runs with each run being angled. In between the wood posts I use the drilled fiberglass posts to hold the single wire. I place the fiberglass post on 60 ft centers.

As for water, I do not recall our discussing how you intend to use the small ponds. Are you going to fence the cattle out or do you plan on letting them have full access? Do you plan on pumping water from the well and using waterers? Whatever you decide we can work into the plan. *


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, 

Well, all my fescue has gone to seed. What is the best course of action now? Granted I still dont have the cattle to eat all of that forage but Im still working on that. Will clipping it still be beneficial at this point? We have a 10' Woods bush hog and waiting on parts to get here Wednesday.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

My volunteer orchard grass has seeded out but my fescue is just now setting a few seed. I plan to start mowing the heads off within days. I will only mow enough acreage to meet my grazing needs. In areas that are still attempting to recover from the major drought we had in 2007/2008 I will let some fescue set seed. I suggest you do some experimenting. Near term clip[some and let the rest go to seed, particularly on thin stands if you have any. Then compare the results.


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## thestartupman

Agmantoo.
I plan on using the well to supply water to the fields on the north south, and west of the house. Because of the seasonal creek, and the rock bottom it seems to have, it would make it very difficult in my opinion to try and run water lines to the other fields. I may look at adding another well to the other side of the property some time. As far as the ponds go I will probably let the cattle have access to the ponds to start with, but would like to change that in the future. I think I will try and update my arial of the property to try and get where I can under stand you better. I will probably adjust the lanes you have created to match the terain a little bit. Thanks again for the help. I know I sure need it.


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## agmantoo

thestartupman

Supposedly the magic number for the maximum distance the cattle would have to travel to get water is 800 feet. I do know for certain that cattle will walk to clean well water as compared to drinking marginally clean water. I have observed my cattle doing that but I read information that is contrary.


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## thestartupman

Agmantoo
I think I have even more questions about how you use these lanes. If I remember correctly, you have the single wire about 40" off the ground? One side of the lane would be a hot wire? You allow the cows access to the lanes to get to water by raising the wire, but how do you keep it raised without it getting knocked over? I have been trying to read back through some of your older post to get a better understanding. I think I do better when I can see some of the picture examples. Thanks again


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## thestartupman

Agmantoo
Here is an updated laypout of the property. I modified your layout a little because of the terrain of the property. If you see something that doesn't look as good as you intended it, please let me know. I may be able to improve it more. I left your lane in red, but changed the interior fences too yellow so I could keep my existing fences seperate from those that are new. I tried to add numbers to different fields so as you try to explain something to me, it might make more sence. I do appeciate the help.


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## thestartupman

Sorry, I forgot to add the photo.


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## SCRancher

thestartupman - what do you intend to do with/to the big wooded area in the center?

The reason I ask is I had a very thick and inaccessible wooded area on my property. 2 winters ago I was able to fence it off so I could release the cattle into it. It now provides some forage for my cattle to either let my pastures rest or as a short wintertime feed. The winter time feed comes mostly from private bushes and honeysuckle vines. The cattle have REALLY cleared a lot and I am thinking of seeding orchard grass in my woods for even more forage.

With your woods in the center you may consider using this area for short intensive periods 2-3 times per year so you may want to consider adding water somewhere in there as well. I lucked out and my initial water line layout left a couple of hydrants on the fence line separating the woods from the pasture.


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## thestartupman

My long term goal is to put a small lake in the center of the wooded area. I never thought much about letting the cattle have access to it. It is pretty clear of lower brush, and vegitation though, so I am not sure it would do much good to let the cattle in there.


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## SCRancher

Gotch ya - my woods (there is a picture of it 10 or 20 pages back) was a thicket so dense I actually had NO idea what it looked like in there. I found a small depression that has water almost year around once I was able to explore it a bit.

Anyway was just a thought.


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## CesumPec

agmantoo said:


> CesumPec
> 
> I have studied your posts and your drawing. I have read the replies from ArmyDoc. What you are wanting to accomplish is too overwhelming for me to assist. I do think the house site is in an ideal location. From that point I am afraid my position would differ greatly from yours. For example, I do believe the wild animals from the "Florida jungle" will consume the garden and the orchard. The wild hogs will keep the fence torn down as they try to get the feed and breed the domestic hogs. Disease is also a consideration. Placing the garden nearer the home for convenience and having the orchard on the slope near to home to minimize the impact of frost with the air movement would have merit. Locating the garden and orchard near the well would IMO also be a big plus.
> My lack of knowledge of your location and the number of issues that are being discussed are outside my comfort zone and time allocation. I do wish you success with your project.


Armydoc has been quite helpful, was just hoping to get your ideas on the rotational grazing and water. Understood about the wild hog problems, but I don't know of anywhere I considered living that they aren't a problem. Will double fence with field fence and electric. Will also trap, butcher, and compost as many as possible.


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## ArmyDoc

CesumPec said:


> Armydoc has been quite helpful, was just hoping to get your ideas on the rotational grazing and water. Understood about the wild hog problems, but I don't know of anywhere I considered living that they aren't a problem. Will double fence with field fence and electric. Will also trap, butcher, and compost as many as possible.


Take a look at the diagram I posted and see what you think. I tried to take into account the rotational grazing and water aspects that I've learned from Agmantoo. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ca...tational-grazing-cattle-forest-setting-2.html


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## WJMartin

Agman and others I've noticed have given the exact acreage for forage, how are you doing this? I think GPS was mentioned once but who do you contact to have that done and what are the advantages?

Just an update, finally got enough fencing completed to begin rotational grazing for real. Grass is looking good, just trying to adjust how much to fence in daily.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin
I have a satellite pic of my place and I hired a professional service, Southern States, to come in with a gps and to calculate the area of each major paddock. The service then marked the satellite pic. I use this for lime and chicken litter calculations and locations.

Additionally I have the permanent parallel single wire partitions with the PVC posts on specific dimensions. Most posts are on 60 ft centers and the widths of the paddocks are on 300 ft spacing where feasible. Therefore if I allocate a paddock that is 2 PVC posts in length, 120 ft, times the 300 ft width I get 36000 sq ft divided by 43560 sq ft or .8 acres. If I use more or less than the length between the posts I just pace it off and multiply times 300ft in most instances. I always state approximately for any error in pacing.


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## ramiller5675

WJMartin,

Try going to the webpage:

Google Planimeter

It uses Google Maps, so you just find your property, mark out the area you want to calculate, and it will give you the acreage.


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## myersfarm

For people in Missouri the state has this it will measure any thing...distance ... Acreage...elavation ...slope...also cordinates


CARES Interactive Maps


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## randyandmegs

Scribble Maps - Draw on google maps with scribblings and more! allows you to measure and draw overlays to Google Earth satelite images.


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## WJMartin

Thanks! 
I had no idea there was so much you could do with google maps ect. and I believe I have a contact at Southern States. hmmmm. 
Agman, I will have to concede this one to the men, my DH is always pacing off the setting for the posts, me, I just stick'em where I need'em and get'er done. HOWEVER, if you want to know how much space you're using and trying to have some consistency in management I concede the point.


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## thestartupman

Agmantoo
I sent you a few more questions that are on the last page. I don't know if you seen them, or if you are just tired of answering peoples questions. If you could take a look, I would appreeciate it.


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## agmantoo

thestartupman said:


> Sorry, I forgot to add the photo.


My failure to respond was just an oversight. I am working on a project for myself and it has been taking time away from here.http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/Spring 2012/IMG01177-20120421-1409.jpg

Your modified map improves our ability to discuss your layout. The position of the trees and the terrain have been an obstacle in the layout. The tree area and the hard to manipulate hill were the reason I asked about doing some earth work. I would like for field 1 to be larger and I do not like the zigzag in the lane. My original lane layout would be easier for cattle to accept. Temple Grandin points out how cattle behave in various circumstances if you want to read.
I do not know your long term plans for being in the cattle business but IMO it would be better to go for a long range or more permanent setup to avoid a do over later. Is it feasible to do some earthwork at this time? Otherwise I am comfortable with the layout.


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## myersfarm

What I see I would make the lane from 5 and 6 right were it makes that sweepping curve to 3 and 4 disapear by just going straight to the point of the yellow line.

...that would make 5 smaller and 3 bigger also not making the fence go in a curve

it would also make the lane shorter saving fence and time


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## randyandmegs

Is there an issue or as much if an issue with bloat using rotational grazing? We have an over abundance of clover this year due to this mild winter we had. Im not concered with existing cattle as they are used to it but I plan to purchasing some soon.


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## agmantoo

Fill up the gut with hay and then turn the animals onto the clover gradually over a few days. Never put them on the clover empty. Keep minerals available, some folks use high mag minerals but I just use regular minerals and loose salt.


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## WJMartin

Agmantoo and others who have or are dealing with drought damage.

My pastures right now look great, cool season grasses that were spread with nitrogen and phos., about knee high or better. However, when I look for the summer grasses I'm not seeing much, some, maybe 50% of what I had last year. Am mowing to 6" after the cows graze and hoping with some sun the summer grasses will start growing, we have been recieving good rains. The current pasture is mainly rye planted last fall, have broadcasted bermuda and red clover.

I have 5 head grazing about 20 acres, trying to keep the grazing light and move them daily. 

What else can I do to help the pasture recover?


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

Do some research on Pearl millet and Teff and see if you think it may work for you.


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## ramiller5675

WJMartin,

After last year, I wouldn't be mowing anything this time of year, because it might not rain again for months and/or the temperature will be in the 100's for the entire summer again. The ryegrasss should start drying down soon anyway, so mowing it won't make it last any longer anyway.

It is still early for warm season grasses, the bermuda is just starting to grow and the native grasses should really start growing next month. So, be patient and if the weather stays close to normal, your warm season grasses will start to recover from last year's drought.


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## WJMartin

agman, thanks for the suggestions for Pearl millet and Teff, will see what I can find.

ramiller, you're right, I need to wait some but I am seeing some growth of the bermuda. I'm really mowing because as we have been clearing we are getting alot of brush growth and the weeds this year are already putting on seed heads. Haven't identified all the grass and weeds growing this year, alot of stuff I've never seen before, but if the cows didn't eat the first time around they probably won't a second time either.


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## Gabriel

I got the flerd back together yesterday. Had to split them briefly due to some available grazing next door that had no fencing. Running cattle with one fence is easy, sheep... not so easy. They have less problems with each other than they do with new members of their own species.


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## MarkM

This is my first year for grazing anything. My most productive pastures are heavy in fescue and the drought last year put a severe dent in the legumes that were present.

My small herd is beginning to develop problems that I attribute to the fescue, although that could be wrong. I will be moving them to other pastures this weekend to see if there is an improvement.

The pastures that are fescue also have some warm season grasses in them. Is there a time that I can mow the fescue back and it will not regrow until fall, allowing the summer grass to be grazed with little fescue presence?

I have been clipping behind them to knock down some young brush and what they have not grazed. Would my time be better spent clipping the seed heads ahead of the herd? The fescue that I have clipped behind them seems to send up more seed pretty quickly.

Gabriel, are any of your sheep hair breeds?


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## Gabriel

MarkM said:


> This is my first year for grazing anything. My most productive pastures are heavy in fescue and the drought last year put a severe dent in the legumes that were present.
> 
> My small herd is beginning to develop problems that I attribute to the fescue, although that could be wrong. I will be moving them to other pastures this weekend to see if there is an improvement.


What are the problems? 



> I have been clipping behind them to knock down some young brush and what they have not grazed. Would my time be better spent clipping the seed heads ahead of the herd? The fescue that I have clipped behind them seems to send up more seed pretty quickly.


What's your stocking rate, on the high side or low side? If high, it might be worth it, but fuel isn't free, even though you can write it off. I mowed a lot last year, haven't cut anything this year. I haven't seen enough difference to justify the cost. Every place is different, perhaps you could run some test spots?



> Gabriel, are any of your sheep hair breeds?


All of them, actually. Some are kind of woolly still, but they should shed off soon. I've become convinced that early shedding is the easiest trait to select for, so 3 of my cattle and 4 sheep will be replaced sometime this year.


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## agmantoo

MarkM
Fescue edophyte issues can be minimized by cutting the seed heads from the fescue. This clipping needs to be done high enough to only get the ends of the fescue leaves. Obviously this needs to be done prior to grazing and early enough to prevent the fescue from reaching maturity. Performing this task will also prolong the grazing season of the fescue.


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## WJMartin

Wanted to post a pic of us finally getting everything in place today and moving the cattle in rotation like they should be. Today's allotment is larger than the others have been because I needed to include the trees to the right for shade, this will be at least two days of grazing.


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## Gabriel

WJMartin, looks good! I wish we had that much grass. It's been unseasonably dry here this year.


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## ArmyDoc

WJMartin - Looks like your cattle are drowning in a sea of grass!


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## MarkM

Gabriel,

Foot issues like this on several animals. One girl has toes that are almost crossed and walks on the back of that hoof. That is the one that made me decide to move them off the fescue.The one in the picture had a severe limp two weeks ago which is slowly improving. The vet is coming out this week to look at these as well as some other help I need. He said that a lot of folks in our area were having fescue issues this year due to the warm wet winter that has given the fescue tremendous growth. The stocking rate is really low.









agman,

I have so much more grass than animals at this point. Do you clip stepwise in front of them as you move them or do you clip large areas at once? I have 19 cows, 15 spring calves and 10 yearlings and they have been on an acre a day.

Is there a point that I have "lost the battle" to stay ahead of the maturing fescue? I am a little demoralized here because I have 80 - 90 acres that is mostly fescue and I am afraid to use it until I have a better handle on how to manage it. This is from 2 weeks ago. I have other areas to graze, but the fescue is on the most productive soil of the farm.


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## cedarvalley

Hello all, i have spent a week reading through this entire thread, this is the best information ive seen on MIG, thanks to AGMANTOO for sharing all your years of experience. I have a 160 acres of which about 60 acres are in pasture and am getting ready to sow another 28 acres in grass this fall. I am getting ready to go to grazing school so i can apply for the equip program here in Missouri. Agmantoo, when i get a chance ill post an aerial view of my farm and if you would be so gracious I'd like your opinion on a grazing setup. I currently have 20 cows and 1 angus bull, but i dont like the size of them, while most all are angus they are between 1300 to 1600 lbs. so i need to come up with a way to get the frame size down on these cattle. Im looking forward to discussing my future attempt at MIG with all of you here.


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## agmantoo

*agman,

I have so much more grass than animals at this point. Do you clip stepwise in front of them as you move them or do you clip large areas at once? I have 19 cows, 15 spring calves and 10 yearlings and they have been on an acre a day.

Is there a point that I have "lost the battle" to stay ahead of the maturing fescue? I am a little demoralized here because I have 80 - 90 acres that is mostly fescue and I am afraid to use it until I have a better handle on how to manage it. This is from 2 weeks ago. I have other areas to graze, but the fescue is on the most productive soil of the farm.*

It is DRY here and I am taking steps to conserve and to promote/maintain forage. The seed heads need to be removed to reduce the issues with endophyte and to minimize the fescue from maturing. I do not clip small areas. As the fescue reaches maturity the stems will become stiff. The long stiff stems will injure the skin area around the eyes and that will allow pinkeye to set in easier. On mature fescue I clip lower to prevent the injury to the eye areas. I also will clip lower then to try to get this waste to not build up creating thatch.

You are feeding a good mineral/salt in loose form aren't you?


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## agmantoo

cedarvalley

Welcome aboard!

If you are dissatisfied with you current animals there probably has not been a better time to phase them out based on the sale barn prices. I also see some nice heifers going to the market. Supposedly you are located where some of the best fescue conditioned stock comes from. I would want my replacements to have been raised on fescue and I do agree that a smaller frame animal generates more income and that is what I would buy.


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## cedarvalley

agmantoo said:


> cedarvalley
> 
> Welcome aboard!
> 
> If you are dissatisfied with you current animals there probably has not been a better time to phase them out based on the sale barn prices. I also see some nice heifers going to the market. Supposedly you are located where some of the best fescue conditioned stock comes from. I would want my replacements to have been raised on fescue and I do agree that a smaller frame animal generates more income and that is what I would buy.


Thanks, Agmantoo, ive been looking for smaller framed young stock around but have been unsuccessful, i attend the auction here every friday but every thing i see is larger frame stock. I was considering buying a lowline angus bull to reduce my heifer retention frame size but im not sure how that would turn out. Any other advice on this or do i need to just search far and wide for this type of cow?


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## agmantoo

Patience has a lot of merit and reward. I would just hold tight. For me I would want locally raised heifers and would be willing to wait. If you could find some heifers in the 725 to 750 lb range that would mature in the 1050 to 1100 lb range you would be on your way because you could breed them now. My problem was finding a local angus bull that would not fall apart on fescue. I tried a number of them with little success.


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## cedarvalley

agmantoo said:


> Patience has a lot of merit and reward. I would just hold tight. For me I would want locally raised heifers and would be willing to wait. If you could find some heifers in the 725 to 750 lb range that would mature in the 1050 to 1100 lb range you would be on your way because you could breed them now. My problem was finding a local angus bull that would not fall apart on fescue. I tried a number of them with little success.


Speaking of bulls, what do you look for as far as EPD information, i dont want to be pulling calves from heifers as i had plenty of that in my younger days and like you i dont attend birthings or play nurse maid to my cattle.


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## SCRancher

cedarvalley said:


> Speaking of bulls, what do you look for as far as EPD information, i dont want to be pulling calves from heifers as i had plenty of that in my younger days and like you i dont attend birthings or play nurse maid to my cattle.


Yea I had to do that for the first time this year with a replacement heifer - it's the pits!

As far as EDP's go it depends upon what's most important to you.

For me if I was selling to the feeder market then I want docile, with great weaning weight. - the rest does not make a difference to you since you won't see the benefit. Who cares what the RE (rib eye) size is if your selling to someone who is buying your steer with out looking at the EDP - unless the buyers have a super eye for how cattle will mature out by looking at a 4-6 month old steer. The exception is first calf heifers - I would not care about much else other than calving ease - I want that calf to glide out of the heifer so I don't have to pull!

For retained heifers I want calving ease, docile, adequate milk, and great feed efficiency when breeding for MIG.

If I was trying to sell to the bull market I would want to develop to hit the top 1% in everything trying to hit the jackpot where you can sell a bull for 100k+

You can't breed for them all - well you can if you try to hit a top 1% but that's not realistic for the majority of us.

I have a really good Angus bull with so so cows at this time. I'll always have a bull because AI is not 100%.

However in order to better target where I want to go with my cattle I think the next cycle I'm going to start AI breeding. 

The calf I had to pull was not a birth weight issue but the calf was simply twisted up all wrong and had to be pulled - he was not especially large weighing in at 80 pounds at birth. This year my low was 72 pounds with my high slightly over 100 pounds.

A good source for AI is:
ABS Global: Beef: Angus Performance EPDs

This is an example of what I would consider to be a good AI Bull.
ABS Global: Beef: Angus 2U66
He has a high CED, Low BW, Average WW, high Doc, and a low $EN
The only thing I would look for if I was going to spend more time looking would be a better WW - everything else is acceptable to me on this bull.

He is a much better bull than I own covering my cows in every regard - there is no way I could afford to purchase a bull like this.
Here is my bull's EDP for comparison - this bull cost me $3,250 and based upon what the other bulls were going for I got a steal at this auction. The best bull in the lot when I purchased mine was purchased by ABS Global for over $15,000.


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## MarkM

agmantoo said:


> *agman,
> 
> I have so much more grass than animals at this point. Do you clip stepwise in front of them as you move them or do you clip large areas at once? I have 19 cows, 15 spring calves and 10 yearlings and they have been on an acre a day.
> 
> Is there a point that I have "lost the battle" to stay ahead of the maturing fescue? I am a little demoralized here because I have 80 - 90 acres that is mostly fescue and I am afraid to use it until I have a better handle on how to manage it. This is from 2 weeks ago. I have other areas to graze, but the fescue is on the most productive soil of the farm.*
> 
> It is DRY here and I am taking steps to conserve and to promote/maintain forage. The seed heads need to be removed to reduce the issues with endophyte and to minimize the fescue from maturing. I do not clip small areas. As the fescue reaches maturity the stems will become stiff. The long stiff stems will injure the skin area around the eyes and that will allow pinkeye to set in easier. On mature fescue I clip lower to prevent the injury to the eye areas. I also will clip lower then to try to get this waste to not build up creating thatch.
> 
> You are feeding a good mineral/salt in loose form aren't you?


agman,

I am using free choice, cafeteria style loose minerals. HOWEVER, about a month ago my bottom pasture flooded along with the mineral box. Some of the minerals hardened and I have tried to break them up. Maybe I should replace the ones that are somewhat caked with fresh material.

I will post some pics after next weekend showing what stage the fescue is now along with a couple of clipping heights for your input.

Bye the way, we had a warm, wet winter. However, it is drying out now and the ground is already beginning to crack in some areas. I feel that, in spite of the winter rains, the subsoil moisture is still lacking. It could be an interesting summer.


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## SCRancher

MarkM - While I can't speak for Agmantoo but we are really pretty close geographically and I can say we are experiencing the same conditions you are. Warm winter with OK moisture little below average spring on the moisture but nothing that worried me till now. This last week has been warmer than I wanted and no moisture to speak of for the last 10ish days. My red clay soil is cracking now - I'm not mowing any more pastures behind my cows now to conserve the shade and potential forage. This may be the wrong tactic but we'll see.


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## ramiller5675

cedarvalley said:


> Speaking of bulls, what do you look for as far as EPD information, i dont want to be pulling calves from heifers as i had plenty of that in my younger days and like you i dont attend birthings or play nurse maid to my cattle.


I've always heard that with Black Angus bulls you want a BW EPD of below 1.0 for heifers and below 2.0 for cows (the numbers are different for different breeds and I don't know enough about them to explain).

And, a milk EPD below 30 will give a moderate milking cow which will give a replacement heifer that keep her condition easier on grass. 

From what I've seen, alot of the bulls with Mytty in Focus in their bloodlines are LBW bulls with overall EPD good numbers. In fact, I've got a Mytty in Focus AI'd bull that so far looks pretty good, keeps his condition on mainly grass, and has given me some good looking calves.


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## cedarvalley

ramiller5675 said:


> I've always heard that with Black Angus bulls you want a BW EPD of below 1.0 for heifers and below 2.0 for cows (the numbers are different for different breeds and I don't know enough about them to explain).
> 
> And, a milk EPD below 30 will give a moderate milking cow which will give a replacement heifer that keep her condition easier on grass.
> 
> From what I've seen, alot of the bulls with Mytty in Focus in their bloodlines are LBW bulls with overall EPD good numbers. In fact, I've got a Mytty in Focus AI'd bull that so far looks pretty good, keeps his condition on mainly grass, and has given me some good looking calves.


What has been your avg. birth weight on heifers with Mytty in Focus bloodline sire?


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## ramiller5675

I looked up the actual numbers on my bull and his BW EPD is -1.2 with a calving ease number of +12, and his actual birthweight was 65 lbs. 

I don't weigh any calves, but I have a weight tape that I use to get an estimate on their weight and according to the tape they all came close to being the same weight at around 65-70 lbs.

I can't vouch for any bull except for the ones I own, but for what its worth, most of the LBW bulls out there have some link to Mytty in Focus and his semen is a top seller.


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## SCRancher

SCRancher said:


> He has a high CED, Low BW, Average WW, high Doc, and a low $EN


Man did I make a mistake here $EN is somewhat bad on that animal!

I had to go back and review what $EN was again.


> A word of caution: Single-trait
> selecting for $EN would tend to
> identify animals with low milk and
> smaller mature size, but with no
> indication of progeny performance
> levels. Very rarely is single-trait
> selection effective in a system-based
> breeding program.


http://www.angusbeefbulletin.com/articlePDF/By%20the%20numbers%2001_09%20ABB.pdf


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## SCRancher

ramiller5675 said:


> I can't vouch for any bull except for the ones I own, but for what its worth, most of the LBW bulls out there have some link to Mytty in Focus and his semen is a top seller.


Funny - the one I posted about earlier - the sire was... MYTTY IN FOCUS!!! Ding Ding Ding.


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## SteveO

Afternoon,
You might want to look at Pharoh Cattle co they are a genetic company and had Lowline bulls just for that purpose. If you are willing to wait I have a 3/4 lowline bull with a good build all grass fed that could probably help head that way also. At this time though he is only 3 months old. His sire was 46 inch tall I think and the dam which i still have is 48 inch. and is 50% lowline.
If your cattle do well on your pasture and have the traits you want. My 2 cents would be breed down instead of starting over.
Just my thoughts but I am a newbe at this
Steve


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## CesumPec

SteveO said:


> Afternoon,
> You might want to look at Pharoh Cattle co they are a genetic company and had Lowline bulls just for that purpose. If you are willing to wait I have a 3/4 lowline bull with a good build all grass fed that could probably help head that way also. At this time though he is only 3 months old. His sire was 46 inch tall I think and the dam which i still have is 48 inch. and is 50% lowline.
> If your cattle do well on your pasture and have the traits you want. My 2 cents would be breed down instead of starting over.
> Just my thoughts but I am a newbe at this
> Steve


Last week on my land I hopped out of my truck and found myself between 2 wild sows and at least a dozen month old piglets. I wasn't afraid of momma shooting me but I did think it a good idea to draw my gun. Fortunately they scattered and went running for the swamp. Now I realize this is not a situation the average American runs into every day, but if it were not for CC, I wouldn't have been armed. Had I been in Maryland vs Florida, just to bring my gun to the land would have required I pack the gun where I couldn't reach it from the driver's seat and the ammo some place else. I wouldn't have had it ready to draw and fire when i got out of the truck. Sad to say, no Babe didn't volunteer to join Bambi in my freezer.

I'm sure as a justification for CC this story sounds silly to the average Chicagoan, but big cities occupy less than a few percent of the US.


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## ArmyDoc

SteveO said:


> Afternoon,
> You might want to look at Pharoh Cattle co they are a genetic company and had Lowline bulls just for that purpose. If you are willing to wait I have a 3/4 lowline bull with a good build all grass fed that could probably help head that way also. At this time though he is only 3 months old. His sire was 46 inch tall I think and the dam which i still have is 48 inch. and is 50% lowline.
> If your cattle do well on your pasture and have the traits you want. My 2 cents would be breed down instead of starting over.
> Just my thoughts but I am a newbe at this
> Steve


The problem with this approach is the consistency of the offspring in future generations. You have a large cow, bred to a small bull, so the first generation offspring are going to be smaller... but what about the next generation - they may be a throw back, and be large. This could be a problem coming large out of a smaller cow. 

Given that cattle prices are high right now, and they pay by the pound, I think it is an ideal time to sell cows that are larger than what you want. It generally takes several generations (ie years) to get consistent offspring. Rather than spend those years trying to breed down from what you have now to what you could buy now, I recommend you buy cattle that are as close to what you want, and work on improving from there.


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## ramiller5675

ArmyDoc said:


> The problem with this approach is the consistency of the offspring in future generations. You have a large cow, bred to a small bull, so the first generation offspring are going to be smaller... but what about the next generation - they may be a throw back, and be large. This could be a problem coming large out of a smaller cow.
> 
> Given that cattle prices are high right now, and they pay by the pound, I think it is an ideal time to sell cows that are larger than what you want. It generally takes several generations (ie years) to get consistent offspring. Rather than spend those years trying to breed down from what you have now to what you could buy now, I recommend you buy cattle that are as close to what you want, and work on improving from there.


I'm not so sure you need to worry about getting a "throw back" when you are breeding for frame size. 

Some of the bull semen sold by Pharo is described as being from bulls that are frame score 3, which you would breed to a cow with a frame of 5 or 6 so that the calf would split the difference and be about a 4. 

The resulting replacement heifers with a frame score of 4 would then be bred to another good bull with a frame score of 4. And, if you use good bulls or semen, you should have a pretty consistent calf crop pretty quick.

And, I'd make sure that I could find some decent replacements before I sold any cows. A calf from a cow that is a little too big is still worth more than NO calf because there weren't any replacements available at a reasonable price.


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## Gabriel

Small framed (quality) cattle are actually quite difficult to find. I second the suggestion to find your replacements before you sell yours. 

Even if you did get a "throwback" that was too large, just cull it!


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

I have been seeing some nice commercial heifers going through the sale barn. Heifers in the 650 lb + range are big enough to breed. Having these heifers bred at this time of year would let them start calving in the Spring. I believe the incoming sale of the cull cows and outgoing money for the heifer purchase would be a wash. This could put the time frame of getting started a year ahead.


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## randyandmegs

Is that at Turnersburg? I was looking at the market reports on their website and comparing to their Tuesday sale in Chesnee. Let me know if you ever decide to visit Chesnee.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Yes, the Turnersburg sale is the one I monitor as that is where I typically sell. I think that if you will attend your auction that over a few weeks you should be able to nit pick the feeder calves that are sold and get some decent heifers close to breeding weight. Worst case that come Spring you could sell the ones that you are not content with as bred or with calf by side and make a few bucks.


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## cedarvalley

Went to the cattle sale today, didnt see much to pick from that were any quality at all, I did come home with one 5 year old angus bred cow that weighed 1120 lbs. she was a little narrower in the rear than what i would of liked. Any breeding stock is getting pretty thin around here, makes me wonder what kind of prices were gonna be lookin at in the months to come.


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## agmantoo

I have had some private messages recently wanting to know how much forage to allocate. Not having the opportunity to observe each persons individual situation reduces my chances to give good guidance. I am posting a pic made yesterday to permit seeing the amount of area allocated for 24 hours grazing to the number of animals grazing. The area is 120 ft by 300 ft. There are roughly 111 mature and breeding age females, two breeding age bulls and ~62 feeder calves of varying age. The forage is fescue and orchard grass in the dough stage. The animals are being moved right to left. The area in the foreground was grazed over the last week.


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## gimpyrancher

Agman,

Is my property supposed to be green like yours? I have a very long way to go to get to a point where I could graze 10% of your stock on one acre. :cow:


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## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> The area is 120 ft by 300 ft. There are roughly 111 mature and breeding age females, two breeding age bulls and ~62 feeder calves of varying age.


I am grazing an area 100 x 200 with 11 mature cows, 1 bull, 6x9 month old bull calves, and 2x9 month old heifers, and 3x3 month old calves for a total of 23 animals - a FAR cry from Agmantoo - I have a LOT of leftover forage and could graze longer or more animals however the grass is way ahead of my grazing for now. 

I'm still new at this so I'm not sure what my best management practice should be at this time.

I was clipping behind the animals but it is leaving a bad looking grass behind that is not regrowing like I would have thought so I stopped clipping. We were way behind in our rain with a moderate drought but over the past week we have had 3+ inches if not 4+ inches and it will have caught up our annual rain fall to near average.

For now I'm just working my way through the pasture 100 x 200 at a time.

Agmantoo - what are you doing during this time with your excess forage? Just stockpiling for summer slump or clipping ahead?

You have a lot more land than I do but your not really allocating much more space for way more cattle.


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## agmantoo

*Agmantoo - what are you doing during this time with your excess forage? Just stockpiling for summer slump or clipping ahead?

You have a lot more land than I do but your not really allocating much more space for way more cattle.
*

SCRancher

I have been impacted by the previous dry weather similar to what you were having. The last couple of days brought some needed rain. With the dry weather I was doing a number of things. I have been clipping grass heads to prepare for July and August stockpiling. My allocations were being done to conserve what forage I had in event things remained dry. As you know I have no hay to speak of. In areas where I do have some Red River crabgrass I had the herd to graze those paddocks short to enable the crabgrass to get started. I have also grazed the low land that stays more moist to try to give the clover and grasses there a chance to get a boost. Just a caution, because there is an abundance of forage at times IMO it is essential to stay as prepared as possible for the future. Finicky weather can play havoc on rotational grazers.


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## SCRancher

Grazing low land's that stays moist - I was planning when my cattle finished the lane they are in (2 more weeks) to graze this area on my farm as well. It was growing some nice Johnson Grass that is between 2 and 3 feet tall last week. With all the rain I have not checked this area but I am sure the area is flooded right now and it is doubtful that it will be dry enough in 2 weeks so I will just rotate them through other areas for now unless when I check it looks dry enough.

I have areas of volunteer Bermuda that are starting to come up nicely, those areas, the low land, and stockpiled fescue I think should take me through August - what I will need toward the end of August all depends upon the weather between now and then.

After grazing the Johnson grass I am considering planting a summer annual on the low land - perhaps pearl millet or a Sudex Hybrid. Last year when I grazed the Johnson grass when it was 5 1/2 feet tall it did not recover and had I planted something over it it would have provided me with forage that I may have been able to allocate when I fed hay for 45 days this past year. It may not have taken away all of my hay needs but at least reduced it by 14 to 21 days worth.

One thing about it when your trying to not have to feed hay is thinking ahead. I am learning but still not sure what is my best options are.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> I am posting a pic made yesterday to permit seeing the amount of area allocated for 24 hours grazing to the number of animals grazing. The area is 120 ft by 300 ft.


How tall is the sward?


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

Knee high +


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## CesumPec

Apologies because this has probably been answered already somewhere deep in this thread, but what methods are folks using to get water to each days graze?


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## agmantoo

I do not have a sophisticated waterer system. I am fortunate to have a 3 streams on the place and I used those streams in my layout. I have since installed a water system using well water but it is not elaborate. Often I let the herd exit into the lanes and walk to the waterers. I try to hold their traveling more than 800 feet in one direction to access water but there are a few times when this distance is exceeded. The cattle prefer the well water to the stream water. Assistance is available for those wanting to met the requirements for qualifying for government help. I choose to remain independent.


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## SCRancher

I have 6000 feet of 2 inch PVC water lines buried with a hydrant every 200 feet. I have a water cart I can pull by hand or ATV with a 50 gallon trough attached. I move the water cart with the herd and plugging into the water line/hydrant system.

In my area the river was on some sort of federal pollution list (Top 10) so there was grant money for anyone who bordered a feeder creek that would fence the cattle out of the streams and install alternate methods of watering their cattle. I took advantage of this money - the government covered the materials while I provided the labor. They also paid for 1/2 of the well since there was not one on the property.

If you flip back a few pages you will find a link to the original post where I talked about my system and showed pictures of the water cart.


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## SCRancher

What size bale? 20 bucks get's me a 4x4 round of decent grass hay or a 4x5 round of "filler" hay (not moldy but pretty course).

Good 4x5 rounds typically go for 30-35 ea.

I don't know anything about Poison Hemlock so I'm no help there.


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## RedRider

SCRancher

This is for a small rectangular 3 string bale about 14 in x 18 in x 38 in
weighing around 70lbs. This is the type that can easily be hand separated into "flakes".

RedRider


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## SCRancher

20 bucks a bale - OUCH that's outrageous! I don't know if anyone around here even pays that to feed the hay burners aka horses.


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## RedRider

Yes, I have 2 hay burners  The hay has been at this price since about October. We used to pay $7.00 for a bale of Alfalfa to give you an idea of how much it has gone up!

RedRider


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## randyandmegs

AAA 16979033

Can you look at this bull please for a starter bull for us. At this point we cant go crazy with a real expensive bull this one is $2300. I dont really understand the AAA EPDs. I can try and post pictures of him tomorrow. Thanks Randy


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## SCRancher

I looked at this bull's EDP's. This bull is from the same farm (YON) as mine and the bulls are very comparable buy this one is better in CED, CEM, and BW - all leading to easier calving. Mine will wean a little heavier calves however it will also birth heaver calves.

I paid 3,250 for my bull - $950 higher!!!

I would buy this bull.


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## ramiller5675

randyandmegs said:


> AAA 16979033
> 
> Can you look at this bull please for a starter bull for us. At this point we cant go crazy with a real expensive bull this one is $2300. I dont really understand the AAA EPDs. I can try and post pictures of him tomorrow. Thanks Randy


His numbers look good, but you have to look at him and see what he actually looks like, how he walks, what his testicles look like, how tall he is, etc.

I can't vouch for the validity, but the one of the best descriptions of an ideal bull I've found is at:

Bovine Engineering&Consulting - Gearld Fry - Devon Cattle - Sustainable Agriculture

I've used some of the ideas from the link to help narrow down which bull I bought a couple of times. (I looked at their EPDs, narrowed down the group, then picked the ones that were closer to the ideal linear measurement).

These bulls seem to do good on grass, but I could have closed my eyes and randomly picked a bull and gotten the same results for all I know.


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## CesumPec

I'm reading _Storey's Guide to Raising Beef Cattle_ and it says you need to have a system of pens, chutes, etc for sorting cattle. The book recommends running the cattle through the pens and chutes frequently so they don't stress when you really need to use the facility. My uncle had this sort of set up on his farm when I was a kid but I have rarely seen it in the last decade. I've seen it on a goat farm last year and for the goats to get their daily grain, they had to enter a feeding pen through a twisted series of chutes. 

But if you are 100% rotational grass, how much of this sort of system do you need and how do you get your critters in and out of it on any sort of routine basis?


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## agmantoo

CesumPec

IMO it is essential to have some sort of handling setup for treating just a single animal to handling the bulk of the herd when sorting, particularly if you have limited help. I have read a lot of Temple Grandin's thoughts and plans regarding cattle. I borrowed her ideas when building what I have. I built my corral and associated chutes when I had a lot less animals so the main area is too small now that the herd has grown. To overcome the limitations I next build an adjacent staging pen. My cattle only cycle through the handling facilities about 6 to 8 times during a year. However, they are not spooked by the fencing and handling equipment and I am able to get the herd "caught" by using what I learned from Temple Grandin. I have a paddock that I reserve for the herd when they are to go through the corral. The very wide lane leading to the paddock has a cross fence that is 45 degrees to the lane and a gate at each end of the cross fence. As the herd anxiously moves to the reserved lane they will naturally move to the gate at the end of the sharp angle created by the 45 degree cross fence. There is no water in the staging paddock. Therefore the herd is given access to that paddock roughly 4 hours prior to being moved into the staging pen. Again they exit in the same direction as they entered the paddock against the 45 degree cross fence and this directs them to the gate at the opposite end and into the staging pen where there is water. Once the herd is in the staging pen the gate is closed behind them and the entire herd is caught. Being this is a one man operation I start moving small groups of animals to the corral using a narrow connecting lane. At the corral I sort what is going to the sale barn from what is to be retained. Retained animals are released into the lane from which they initially entered the reserved paddock. Animals leaving the farm go into a holding pen to await transportation. The retained animals become familiar with the move and since the calves are always with the herd the entire group remains calm. No shocking, punching, shouting is necessary or done. Well, sometimes to get an animals attention I will whistle.


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## CesumPec

well I like your philosophy even if I am having a hard time understanding your design. I don't suppose you could post a rough drawing of your setup? 

I've heard lots about Temple Grandin but haven't read anything. WOuld you recommend_ "Humane Livestock Handling"_?


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## myersfarm

Agman how much sawdust do you add to a acre of land.....also does that also need more lime to balance the soil back


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## agmantoo

CesumPec

I will make a sketch within the next week. I am very busy with other obligations. I do not mind doing it but time does not permit.


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## agmantoo

myersfarm

I was getting all the sawdust from a nearby small mill. The mill is a father & son operation with limit production. I have a farm truck with a box dump dimensioned 16 ft by 8 ft. and 4 ft high side boards. I try to dump it scattered but that doesn't work too good. I usually just get a strip dumped that anywhere from a few inches deep to maybe 10 inches deep and I spread that strip will a drag harrow. The sawdust is acidic so I do have to add lime to the ground that I am attempting to improve. I let the soil sample tell me how much lime. I have ceased to bring on sawdust where the land has improved but I still use whatever is available on land that I am trying to get into production. To answer your question...my best guess is 3 to 5 tons of sawdust per acre. When chicken litter is available I put as much as 6 tons of litter per acre on poor ground with no or limited top soil.


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## CesumPec

thanks and understood. I read lots and lots which provides some level of education but nothing beats being able to ask questions of someone who is actually doing it. And not a one of the ranchers I've met in north central Florida is doing rotational grazing. It isn't the way their dads ranched and they don't want to change.

Even asking the livestock specialists at extension isn't much help. They understand the concepts but don't have the practical experience. 

So I greatly appreciate the time and knowledge you've put into this thread.


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## MarkM

Here is what I have










Here it is clipped to about 10 inches










Is this too short? Too tall?

In deciding how far ahead to clip, how much time will lapse before the fescue starts to head out again. (Variable, I know)

I found a sweet Massey 275 with an 8 ft shredder, the cattle have been off the fescue for three weeks and their foot issues have been taken care of. I am looking forward to getting them back on the fescue pastures.


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## randyandmegs

I have same questions about clipping height of the fescue. I broke the fold out ruler so its upside down starting at 72".










I ended up leaving 22". Worked out good as we got 3" of rain the next day.










Here is the fawn I thought I hit with the front tire. He was fine, now if he can survive the coyote.


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## agmantoo

Mark

If you are utilizing the forage and are wanting to conserve feed then here is where your cut height should be. Your positioning of the rotary mower is not set for idea cutting. The front leading edge should be slightly lower than the rear to avoid having the mower to cut twice. To get higher, the trail wheel may need to be repositioned downward with the bolt in the cross bar in front of the rear mower wheel









randyandmegs is close to being at the conserving height IMO

If you cut too much off and the clipped portion does not rot you are going to start building thatch, something you do not want to happen.


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## MarkM

Thanks for the tips agman, I will be heading out on Wednesday to get busy with my new old tractor and get the fescue under control.


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## agmantoo

CesumPec

This is a crude free hand sketch of the cattle movement through my handling setup. Follow the > > > arrows to see the movement of the cattle. The second pic is my recycled guard rail corral


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## CesumPec

very helpful, Agmantoo. That made your explanation crystal clear.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo. The search function on the thread keeps giving me an error message. My waterers and hydrants are finally all in place and working. I need to start building my lane. What height should I have it at? I measured the step in post like you have but it seems like your lane was a bit higher.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

My lane fences are not on pigtails posts. I have to be able to disconnect the high tensile wire from the posts and raise the wire so that the raised wire becomes the "gate". I set the wire to where it is roughly 32" from the ground. This is not at my place but it represents what a permanent lane fence should look like IMO. Post distances on level ground are 60 ft apart.


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## randyandmegs

Gotcha. I mis-worded that question. I understand how your lanes work verus the temporary paddocks just couldnt find the heights of the lanes.


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## WJMartin

agman, on your corral panels, did you bend them or did they come that way?


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

The curved part is actually a portion of a grain storage bin that I recycled. I failed (errored) to show that portion in the sketch.


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## WJMartin

Agman, my DH will be pleased to hear that, I was telling him, "If Agmantoo can do it, so can you!" 
Sorry, I won't tell him that again, just couldn't resist. I'll go move my cows now.

Where is the curved portion on the corrall?


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## agmantoo

In the rough sketch I made of my cattle handling corral a few posts back look for the word Corral. Below the wording "squeeze gate" the curved section is opposite the squeeze gate. This gate is to force the cattle into the alley leading to the headgate or to the holding pen. If you can decipher the sketch you will see that I constantly have the cattle moving to where they can see where they came from and they are trying to return just using a different path. This is what I learned from reading Temple Grandin's work.
I seldom have animals that will balk by using this technique.


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## hondac

agmantoo,
Outstanding information you have provided in this thread. Thanks! One question comes to mind (I may have missed the anwser in these 73 pages).....
When you are moving a drag harrow into one of these paddocks, how do you get it over the HT wire? I'm assuming the tractor can't go under the raised wire and that the harrow would catch or snag the wire if attemping to go over it.


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## agmantoo

hondac

Welcome to the site!

Since I have no gates from the lanes to the paddocks and the tractor will not go under the wire I have to drive over the wire. I pull up to the wire with the tractor and I pull out the hairpins holding the wire onto the posts which are on either side of the tractor and then I use pigtail posts and pin the wire to the ground. Then I drive the tractor across the wire and stop with the harrow still on the off side. I disconnect the clevis from the drawbar on the tractor and feed the chain under the wire and reconnect the clevis, remove the two pigtail posts holding the wire down, the wire raises and I pull the harrow into the paddock. Fortunately the grazed paddocks are rather long and I can drag a number of days worth of consumed grass and manure before exiting. I leave the harrow adjacent to the lane where it was last used.


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## randyandmegs

Went to look at bull from post 2166 his number is AAA 16979033 $2300. 16 months old. Most of the cows in the pictures with him are those mini type breed. Came from a reputable farm, Yon in SC. His size to me seems to be what has been described on this thread. Some concerns I have was his gait. Seemed stiff legged in the rear but the other angus cows walked the same way, just seemed a little odd but I was also trying to find anything wrong and testicles did not look like what I have read should be. What are the good and bad of this bull and thoughts in general.




























This concerned me


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## SCRancher

Randyandmegs - I have no idea what the mismatched testicles mean however I'm wondering if it's possible if one of them are just "up" a bit.

Next question - do you really need a bull? Could AI be your answer? How many cattle do you have?

Last - I just snapped a few pictures of my bull trying to get some of the testicles to give you a comparison.


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## randyandmegs

They were not lop sided just for that one picture. I took 50-60 pictures to make sure I had some good ones to share. We have 24 cattle now but I want to get rid of all of them either due to size, age or health. AI could very well be the answer for me in the future say in 3-4 years, just not educated enough about it on equipment needed and how to get the cattle acustomed to the process but the biggest hurdle is sharing the farm with my grandfather who is of the old way of cattle farming and has all the equipment on his side. My neighbor has a dairy and could do the actual process for me. Tomorrow I will finish building my lane and can finally after 2 years of planning, working and getting help funding, will start doing managed rotational grazing. Maybe after my grandpa can actually see the process work he will let me expand to the other 80 acres. Looking at the link Ramiller posted this was their opinion on the scrotum. 

"The scrotum should be football shaped with the epididymis on the very bottom of testicle. If the epididymis is anywhere else but on bottom, the results shows up in the quality of udder of the daughters. The sons will have the same problem as the sire or worse with irregular shaped testicles (recessive genes). If the nipples of the sire are on the neck of the scrotal sack the daughters udders will be tilted up in font and lower milk production. If the nipples of the sire are on the scrotal neck his sons will have a large navel area with the opening pointing toward the ground and fertility is lower. Irregular shaped testicle and epididymis causes irregular and cylinder shaped udders, large nipples and causes udders to sag and break down."

Thanks for sharing the pictures. That helps to see from others what to look for.


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## ramiller5675

Those testicles would be a deal breaker for me. They should both be the same size and shape, no matter what. Without good testicles, a bull can't really do what he is supposed to do, regardless of what his EPD numbers say.

Try going to: How to See and Select a Fertile Bull - Seed Stock and Commercial for a more detailed description of testicle shape, size, etc. 

I would be reluctant to buy a bull from someone that is messing around with "miniature" cattle, or any other breed except the type of registered breed of bull they are trying to sell. If they are breeding and selling registered Black Angus bulls they should only have 
good high quality Black Angus cattle on their property, and they should have a decent number of head, so that they could theoretically select the best of the best. Otherwise, how else could they be breeding high quality bulls? 

The bulls I've bought have all gone through the bull testing station at Bull Testing &mdash; Animal Science, is there a similar testing station in your area? If you can find a local bull testing facility, it might make it easier to find a good bull.

Your bull breeder should be at least participating in some sort of bull testing, even if he didn't test the bulls he is trying to sell you (although I would wonder why he didn't test a bull that I was thinking about buying).


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## myersfarm

to make it simple he is a 3/4 bull to me...and would not cover as manycows as a GOOD BULL would


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs 

Thanks for posting the pics. Those pics saved me the fuel to SC to see what they have to offer. I cannot understand why a person that sells breeding stock would compromise his reputation by trying to market that animal as a herd sire. That bull should have been neutered and sold as meat. A couple of those cows in the pic appear rough also. Remember this...Like begets like.


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## randyandmegs

I was thinking it would be hard to spend that much money unless I was perfectly satisfied with the bull, and that one aspect with him was my main concern. This guy is just reselling the bull because he said he was worried about crossing it with his herd of cows (Devons??), it came from a large well known AA breeder.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo: Im getting started in the next few days. Is there anything I need to do to to work with the cows on getting them used to going under the wire? Do they associate moving the pvc pipe to moving to the next paddock? With no more than I have they will probably be eating the lane for a few days.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

I would let the herd eat the lane area near a waterer. Then I would cross fence the lane giving access to water and shade and using the pvc "gate" I would open the lane to an allocated paddock. The allocated paddock should allow enough grazing for 24 hours. I always vocalize to let the herd know I am in the area and new grazing is about to begin. It is easy to condition the herd to respond to your calling. Doing so can have many benefits in the future. I had a vehicle crash through my fence and the cattle could have exited but I just called to them and they followed me to another area where they could be held until I repaired the fence. PS....do not attempt to force the animals out of the lane and under the fence. Let them find out for themselves how to get to new grass. Let me know how it goes.


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## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> Thanks for posting the pics. Those pics saved me the fuel to SC to see what they have to offer. I cannot understand why a person that sells breeding stock would compromise his reputation by trying to market that animal as a herd sire. That bull should have been neutered and sold as meat. A couple of those cows in the pic appear rough also. Remember this...Like begets like.


Agmantoo - Yes IMO Yon should have castrated that animal if it's not suited to breeding. All of his bulls that were sold at the auction I was at had a 1 year satisfaction guarantee. So I DO see your point and agree with a breeder his size he should only be marketing sound breeding stock and that animal should have been culled - it has indeed hurt their reputation.

I will however say that Yon is not who has the bull now and the current owner of the bull is the one with mixed cattle.

If you are at all interested in seeing I would still recommend Yon Family Farms should be on a short list of auctions to visit. All of the bulls that were auctioned were available for inspection and they were all either very drugged up or just super calm used to lots of different people because there were customers walking around the bulls in the poly wire pen's taking notes and making comparisons and the bulls hardly seemed to take notice.


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## hondac

Thanks. Why didn't I think of that simple solution? My lack of brain power I guess.


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## ycanchu2

MarkM said:


> Here is what I have
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is clipped to about 10 inches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this too short? Too tall?
> 
> In deciding how far ahead to clip, how much time will lapse before the fescue starts to head out again. (Variable, I know)
> 
> I found a sweet Massey 275 with an 8 ft shredder, the cattle have been off the fescue for three weeks and their foot issues have been taken care of. I am looking forward to getting them back on the fescue pastures.


Nice looking grass.....somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fescue only heads out one time during the year, unlike ryegrass that heads out over and over again. Fescue appears to head out again but it is just where you run over it with the tractor tire and what hasn't headed out to start with. After you mow it 2 or 3 times it shouldn't head anymore till next year, at least that has been my observation.


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## MarkM

ycanchu2,

That is what I am hoping for. I am about to re-clip an area that was grazed and clipped forty five days ago and see how that responds. I will see how that area does for stockpiling for late summer. This area does have far fewer seed heads than the areas that have not been clipped. The grass has gotten way ahead of me as I really wasn't planning on a lot of tractor work. (Rookie thinking)


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo: It appears that one of the steers (saw him licking it today and scratching his head on it) keeps knocking down my PVC pipe It has happened two times already. Did you ever have this problem if so what did you do? I thought about twisting in some poly wire to the HT and wrapping it down the pvc post but I feel like they know that post as a safety point in which they can go under the HT.


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## ramiller5675

When you use the PVC to lift the wire, I have always thought that you take the wire off of the line post, lift the wire with the PVC, and then put the PVC pipe over the line post so that it is stable.

With the PVC over the line post, it can't be knocked down as easily from cattle rubbing on it or the wind blowing it down, etc.


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## randyandmegs

I used T posts for my HT at 60' apart. I painted each with Cool Seal rubberized roofing type paint so it would not be as conductive per Agmans suggestion. I used the insulators with the pull pins but did not use them to lift the wire and went midways between the post and pushed up the wire. When I tried pulling the pin it was going to cause me to have to make a wider paddock than what I wanted for no more cows than I have. That may be part of the problem.


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## ramiller5675

Somewhere, I've seen a description of a similar wire lifting device in which a "point" made of metal was attached to the bottom of the PVC so that it could be anchored to the ground. 

The easiest way to describe the pointed PVC is to imagine a giant step in post. Or, a piece of 1/2" or 5/8" sucker rod attached to the PVC with a welded piece to help push it into the ground about a foot or so up from a pointed end. Lift the wire and step on the welded piece to anchor it. There are a bunch of different ways to attach that metal point to your PVC, so I'll leave that up to you and your scrap pile to figure out.

Something like that might work better with your T-post setup.


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## randyandmegs

Just went out and took a few pictures before dark. The first is with the wire being held up without removing the pin on the insulator. The second has the pin removed. By removing the pin the pole was a lot more unsteady and I had to widen the paddock to 120' (length between 2 posts). While pulling the pin does give them much more room to move into the lane the post will come down if one of them decides to scratch their head on it. I think I am missing something here and need to go back and re-read the thread again on this part. The only things I can think off hand are to tighten up the entire HT line more, or find a way to lash the PVC post to the center T post for support. I cant slide it over the T post without removing the insulator. I'm sure Agmantoo will see this and tell me a few simple fixes and I will feel silly as usual...


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## agmantoo

Going to send a few feeder calves and a cull cow to the Monday sale. I am starting to stage the herd for sorting. I have found that by gradually getting them in position the go through the sorting they remain a lot calmer. None of them are excited today and tomorrow I will give them access to the paddock adjacent to the corral. A few hours prior to the transport trailer arriving I will move the entire herd into the fenced holding area and the cut the herd into small groups of 12 to 15 and do the final sort. Animals not making the trip will remain in the immediate area until those being sold are shipped. Once the trailer leaves I will move the herd to a new paddock and resume the old schedule and everything should return to normal. Here is the herd coming up the main lane with only me behind them.


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## Dreamfarm

Agmantoo, That grass is so lush and green, hoping my grass will look like that one day. Do you ever let them graze the main lane?


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

You are going to have to affix the upright PVC gate to an existing in ground post. I place my PVC pipe over the inline posts that I removed the single lane wire from. In your situation you cannot get the PVC pipe over the tee post insulator. I first would try using a bungee cord around the PVC pipe and the tee posts. The bungee cord should hold the PVC pipe to the tee post. I know a tie wrap would hold the PVC pipe to the tee post but I do not like the idea of having to waste the tie wrap and having to get rid of the wasted tie wrap when you have to cut it loose. You could possibly put a very short PVC post over the projecting part of the tee posts. It would be necessary to cross drill the short PVC pipe a ways up from the bottom and insert a bolt or something to keep the PVC pipe from dropping too far down the tee posts. I believe this would work OK and would only require a minimum of PVC pipe.


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## agmantoo

Dreamfarm said:


> Agmantoo, That grass is so lush and green, hoping my grass will look like that one day. Do you ever let them graze the main lane?


I sure do let them graze the lane. I purposely made the lane large so that I can use it for dual use, as a lane and a paddock. The grass is not as green as the photo shows as it was overcast and cell phone lacks when it comes to taking pics. Just realize I have a head start will the grass, you will get there.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

To reduce the size of the paddocks and to still be able to get under the lane wire here is a "trick". With the polywire It is OK to move over to and the next lane post but then leaving that lane post that is over to far take the polywire on about a 45 degree angle to the width that you want the paddock to be and insert a pigtail posts. From the pigtail post now cross the paddock at whatever width you wish the paddock to be. You will just be creating a "funnel" from the lane into the paddock.>=====


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## myersfarm

randyandmegs 
I see your problem with the post and instead of a plastic wire tie....I would use a metal radator hose clamp that will go around both post.....just use a screw driver to unscrew and screw back and if you put one close to top and one close to bottom you would not have to take off the insulator


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> To reduce the size of the paddocks and to still be able to get under the lane wire here is a "trick". With the polywire It is OK to move over to and the next lane post but then leaving that lane post that is over to far take the polywire on about a 45 degree angle to the width that you want the paddock to be and insert a pigtail posts. From the pigtail post now cross the paddock at whatever width you wish the paddock to be. You will just be creating a "funnel" from the lane into the paddock.>=====


Right now I have the opposite going on with it getting wider as I get to the lane. Before going to work this morning I tiewrapped the pvc to the center t post and pulled the pin. I think I will first try cutting a piece of pvc pipe short and putting the bolt through it and slide it over the t post and see how that works out.


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## agmantoo

Yesterday I posted a pic of the herd being moved from near the back of the farm up the main lane to the staging paddock. This morning I opened the gates to the final staging area and moved the herd in to fill up on forage before the sorting was soon to start. Unfortunately I got caught up in the movement of the herd into the final staging pen and then the corral and I do not have any additional pics. It takes me about 2 to 2 1/2 hours to get the final sort done. The trailer arrived on time and the trailer driver and I got the animals to be shipped loaded quickly. We had a full load.


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## ufo_chris

hondac said:


> agmantoo,
> Outstanding information you have provided in this thread. Thanks! One question comes to mind (I may have missed the anwser in these 73 pages).....
> When you are moving a drag harrow into one of these paddocks, how do you get it over the HT wire? I'm assuming the tractor can't go under the raised wire and that the harrow would catch or snag the wire if attemping to go over it.


I go under the wire where it's raised on the pvc pipe. We have a TT50 , full size tractor, but ROPS has to be down.


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## agmantoo

A friend and I attended a portion of the local cattle auction this afternoon. The sale was a true eye opener for me as I have only been reading about current prices. Cull cattle weighing 850 and up in just average condition brought as much as $1.15/pound. A small group of 6 head of feeder steers, weighing an average of 420 lbs, brought $1.99/lb. A few individual light weighter feeder steers brought over $2/lb. ~1140 head were sold


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## randyandmegs

Just dropped off my Reg Red Angus bull for the sale tomorrow. Im planning on going to buy some AA heifers in the 600-700 lb range. In case I dont get a order buyers help what are the highlights to look for? I saw trucks from Mt. Airy dropping off cattle all the way down here.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

I do think you have identified the correct weight range to buy in but the prices are high across the board IMO. As for a buyers assistance or suggestions on what to look for I can neither recommend or provide guidelines. I know no order buyers near you nor is it possible to acquaint you in what to look for in the time allocated. The person that went to the sale with me today was on the first trip of a number of trips we expect to make as training outings. Both of us are learning what the buyers want. I had some surprises today! You need to talk to the sale barn manager and get the recommendation for a buyer. It will be up to you to explain exactly what you plan on doing and the buyer would like for you to describe the type animal you want. The buyer should be able to avoid your buying unsound animals regardless. In the 15 seconds that it takes to sell an animal a person has to make up their mind immediately without stopping to review the details. It takes years to hone those skills. I just cull my mistakes but that is an expensive learning experience. Wishing you good luck.


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## randyandmegs

What is the best way to bring in new heifers? I can make the lane longer and put them with the 3 steers, put them in a 1.5 acre lot with 4 sheep, put them in with the main herd and move them to to my side in the grazing system later (not really my preferred option) or any other suggestions?


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

You need to isolate them in a secure lot. I would hold them in isolation for roughly 30 days. If there are any issues from transporting the animal may need to be caught and treated. I did see at the sale barn a bad case of pinkeye yesterday that needed treated.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

Did you make any purchases yesterday? If so, pics would be nice.


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## Gripshover

Agmantoo, I have pasture now that has a lot of clover in it and not much grass. What would be the best way to get more grass in it? Use a drill, over seed, and when should I do it?

Thanks
Leo


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## agmantoo

Gripshover

Welcome to this site!

I need to know approximately where you are located to have a better idea in determining if I am qualified to answer your question. Please tell me if you have had any soil samples taken recently and if so the results of the samples.


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## randyandmegs

I did. Sold our RA bull. He was 1900 lbs and used an order buyer to get 5 BA heifers. I can try to get better pictures tomorrow. Weights are from 630 to 680 for all.


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## Gripshover

Im located in Northern KY. I did have soil samples taken this spring and it required 2-3 tons of lime per acre which I applied 1.5-2 tons this spring.


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## agmantoo

Gripshover said:


> Agmantoo, I have pasture now that has a lot of clover in it and not much grass. What would be the best way to get more grass in it? Use a drill, over seed, and when should I do it?
> Im located in Northern KY. I did have soil samples taken this spring and it required 2-3 tons of lime per acre which I applied 1.5-2 tons this spring.
> Thanks
> Leo


IMO fescue would be the grass of choice for survivability and extended grazing. I have little exposure to the friendly endophyte fescues but I have experimented with other fescues and KY31 even with its known issues is the fescue of choice for me. I have known of initial stands of KY31 still in existence after 25 years from the original plantings. My herd is accustomed to the KY31 and the benefits overshadow the negative aspects. If you are going to plant fescue it is best done in the early Fall. Start preparing the soil in August. To get the fescue established in early Fall you must contend with the clover. A light discing or a herbicide burn back to the clover should suppress the clover until the grass emerges. I prefer to have the fescue broadcast. I do not like the narrow rows created by drilling. It take to much time to get the spaces between rows to fill in if they every do. The ideal stand should be somewhere around 1/3 clover and 2/3 grass. While seeding you could also blend some annual ryegrass in with the fescue. The ryegrass will also assist in suppressing the clover in early Spring. You will not want to graze the fescue excessively and it does need to develop a strong root system. During wet periods hold off grazing as the cattle can pull the grasses out of root and they will perish. My seeding rate would be 20 to 25 lbs of fescue and 6 to 8 lbs of ryegrass. Plant when moisture is adequate for emergence and only cover the seed lightly, again by discing lightly followed by a light drag harrowing. If you have a cultipacker use it after planting. Provided you get a mediocre or better stand of grass and you do rotational grazing the grasses should flourish. In the Spring if the clover starts to overwhelm the new grasses, apply 2-4-D at roughly 1/2 rate and that should not kill the clover but should stress it and extend its time to recovery.


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> I do think you have identified the correct weight range to buy in but the prices are high across the board IMO. As for a buyers assistance or suggestions on what to look for I can neither recommend or provide guidelines. I know no order buyers near you nor is it possible to acquaint you in what to look for in the time allocated. The person that went to the sale with me today was on the first trip of a number of trips we expect to make as training outings. Both of us are learning what the buyers want. I had some surprises today! You need to talk to the sale barn manager and get the recommendation for a buyer. It will be up to you to explain exactly what you plan on doing and the buyer would like for you to describe the type animal you want. The buyer should be able to avoid your buying unsound animals regardless. In the 15 seconds that it takes to sell an animal a person has to make up their mind immediately without stopping to review the details. It takes years to hone those skills. I just cull my mistakes but that is an expensive learning experience. Wishing you good luck.


Im curious as to what suprises are you seeing at the sale?

Here is the same heifer that you had concerns on with the tail.


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## agmantoo

That heifer looks great in this pic. She has all the desirable points that I would want for giving you good future calves and for an all forage diet. Her hip shape is great and enough length to attract a buyer of feeder calves. Her gut capacity should let her take on enough forage in any season. When do you expect for her to be bred?

As for surprises at the sale barn. There were more buyers than I expected with the elevated prices. The major surprise was the weight at which the buyers were willing to pay the most money. 600 lb feeder calves were cheaper per head than 420 calves. The 420 lb fat calves brought less total money than medium to light 420 lb calves. I know trucking expenses are high but apparently feedlot buyers wanted to put most of the weight on the calves themselves and load as many animals on the trucks as could be safely shipped. One grouped lot of calves weighing 420 lbs sold bumping $2/lb. Nice 590 lb group brought $826 each. That buyer got 170 lbs of weight for nothing.

Just a few notes, as nearly always black calves brought a premium but this time the premium was higher than in the past at around 15 cents/lb. Run of the mill non black average feeder calves were around 30 cents per lb less than quality black feeder calves. I saw a small number of individual calves bring more than $2./lb. No non black calves broke the $2/lb range. Obviously in our area the black is where we need to be and we need to pay attention to the weights that we are selling. I had surplus forage and was just adding weigh but I did expect to get paid for the gain. I may take another load of lighter calves shortly rather than run them through the hot weather.


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## randyandmegs

We have sloping land with part of it a little too much so but on the rest of the areas I was able get 19 tanker loads of sludge applied over the past two days. I started with my soil test and also had a few areas that were thin on top soil and got good coverage. It was free to boot and pre limed. If there are areas of soil outside of a set PH parameter then they will come back and spread more lime. That was only the case when they first started years ago but they have it down to a science now. We should get more in the fall and we already had is placed on another area in April. We plan to get more areas on the farm permitted by the state to be able to move into other pastures not currently being done.


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> That heifer looks great in this pic. She has all the desirable points that I would want for giving you good future calves and for an all forage diet. Her hip shape is great and enough length to attract a buyer of feeder calves. Her gut capacity should let her take on enough forage in any season. When do you expect for her to be bred?
> 
> As for surprises at the sale barn. There were more buyers than I expected with the elevated prices. The major surprise was the weight at which the buyers were willing to pay the most money. 600 lb feeder calves were cheaper per head than 420 calves. The 420 lb fat calves brought less total money than medium to light 420 lb calves. I know trucking expenses are high but apparently feedlot buyers wanted to put most of the weight on the calves themselves and load as many animals on the trucks as could be safely shipped. One grouped lot of calves weighing 420 lbs sold bumping $2/lb. Nice 590 lb group brought $826 each. That buyer got 170 lbs of weight for nothing.
> 
> Just a few notes, as nearly always black calves brought a premium but this time the premium was higher than in the past at around 15 cents/lb. Run of the mill non black average feeder calves were around 30 cents per lb less than quality black feeder calves. I saw a small number of individual calves bring more than $2./lb. No non black calves broke the $2/lb range. Obviously in our area the black is where we need to be and we need to pay attention to the weights that we are selling. I had surplus forage and was just adding weigh but I did expect to get paid for the gain. I may take another load of lighter calves shortly rather than run them through the hot weather.


I am expecting them to be bred in Aug/Sept. Depending on how things go my plan was to AI them with Pharo bulls. Kit has offered to help with me out with either that and buying a bull as the herd grows if I choose to go that way. He did say which I was suprised that he was getting much higer prices for Red Angus over black.


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## Allen W

agmantoo said:


> As for surprises at the sale barn. There were more buyers than I expected with the elevated prices. The major surprise was the weight at which the buyers were willing to pay the most money. 600 lb feeder calves were cheaper per head than 420 calves. The 420 lb fat calves brought less total money than medium to light 420 lb calves. I know trucking expenses are high but apparently feedlot buyers wanted to put most of the weight on the calves themselves and load as many animals on the trucks as could be safely shipped. One grouped lot of calves weighing 420 lbs sold bumping $2/lb. Nice 590 lb group brought $826 each. That buyer got 170 lbs of weight for nothing.
> 
> Just a few notes, as nearly always black calves brought a premium but this time the premium was higher than in the past at around 15 cents/lb. Run of the mill non black average feeder calves were around 30 cents per lb less than quality black feeder calves. I saw a small number of individual calves bring more than $2./lb. No non black calves broke the $2/lb range. Obviously in our area the black is where we need to be and we need to pay attention to the weights that we are selling. I had surplus forage and was just adding weigh but I did expect to get paid for the gain. I may take another load of lighter calves shortly rather than run them through the hot weather.


4 weight calves are in demend to go back out on grass somewhere. 800 plus go to the feed lots generaly. 6 to 700 pounders are kind of in the middle and in your area probably not much in demand.


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## SCRancher

agmantoo said:


> As for surprises at the sale barn. There were more buyers than I expected with the elevated prices. The major surprise was the weight at which the buyers were willing to pay the most money. 600 lb feeder calves were cheaper per head than 420 calves. The 420 lb fat calves brought less total money than medium to light 420 lb calves. I know trucking expenses are high but apparently feedlot buyers wanted to put most of the weight on the calves themselves and load as many animals on the trucks as could be safely shipped. One grouped lot of calves weighing 420 lbs sold bumping $2/lb. Nice 590 lb group brought $826 each. That buyer got 170 lbs of weight for nothing.
> 
> Just a few notes, as nearly always black calves brought a premium but this time the premium was higher than in the past at around 15 cents/lb. Run of the mill non black average feeder calves were around 30 cents per lb less than quality black feeder calves. I saw a small number of individual calves bring more than $2./lb. No non black calves broke the $2/lb range. Obviously in our area the black is where we need to be and we need to pay attention to the weights that we are selling. I had surplus forage and was just adding weigh but I did expect to get paid for the gain. I may take another load of lighter calves shortly rather than run them through the hot weather.


Great info Agmantoo - I have been holding on to my bull calves hoping to sell them as breed stock however it's not looking like I am getting any bites - not surprising since this is my first time - but I held on to them longer getting them close to initial breeding age and thus adding weight for apparently nothing according to what you have posted.

Your post and this situation means I need to evaluate early and hard do I want to do breed stock with my bulls or to sell at the auction - if auction sell in the 400 pound range or I'm adding weight to them for nothing. Fine if you have extra grass I guess but would rather run more cows and less older calves if that's the case.

Now what do do with 700 pound (guessing) bull calves that are 10 months old ..... any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

Whether it is bovine stock or Wall St stock, I have learned over time that if you are going to sell and you can make a profit then Sell. Never try to time the market. A 7 weight bull of mine brought $912 and was the second largest that I sent. Also a bull, but an 8 weight, only returned $850. Both were black. My four weight black steer calves brought $809 each. Selling light calves will conserve forage and will let the cows have a rest. I will not expand the herd as I feel I am at capacity. I am carrying a few extra heifers that I will carefully cull and only keep the best. Some of the older cows will be studied for culling also.


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## ycanchu2

SCRancher said:


> Great info Agmantoo - I have been holding on to my bull calves hoping to sell them as breed stock however it's not looking like I am getting any bites - not surprising since this is my first time - but I held on to them longer getting them close to initial breeding age and thus adding weight for apparently nothing according to what you have posted.
> 
> Your post and this situation means I need to evaluate early and hard do I want to do breed stock with my bulls or to sell at the auction - if auction sell in the 400 pound range or I'm adding weight to them for nothing. Fine if you have extra grass I guess but would rather run more cows and less older calves if that's the case.
> 
> Now what do do with 700 pound (guessing) bull calves that are 10 months old ..... any suggestions would be appreciated.


I would think about making steers out of them, and they would probably bring over a thousand dollars. If you do it by the signs....right now is a good time via banding or knife. i banded some 4 and 5 weight bulls yesterday. Bull calves seem to be taking a hit right now, vs.steers, on the market around here.


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## avrugu

Question.

I've got a pasture without cows on it yet. In terms of whats better for the soil and field health, is it better to mow early and often or let the grasses grow before cutting so there's more plant to break down ?

Thanks


Sorry if this has been covered, the length of this thread is overwhelming for me.


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## trbizwiz

mow before you get a seed head. keeps energy in the roots.


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## avrugu

ok thanks. I got part of it mowed before the main grass type went to seed and some I didn't. 

The previously mowed stuff looks more lush almost like a lawn and the other area doesn't look great because a lot of it layed over without getting cut. It's tough and stringy but there is definitely more plant matter which will eventually break down I assume.


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## Alaska

New here and new to ranching. Recently moved from alaska to central texas. We have 30 acres with a lease on the 34 acres adjacent to us. about 10 or twelve of the acres are mostly cleared with good soil. After the drought it is mostly weeds.
we have two angus cows, one heifer and one steer with a loaner bull now.
I am looking at improving that 10 acres and thinking of starting the rotational grazing in the spring. 
Any texas folks here?
Any and all advice for a wantabe cowboy will be appreciated


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## trbizwiz

The mowed stuff looks more lush because removal before seed forms, will keep the grasses from becomming lignified. This also keeps the grasses more palatable and digestable, not to mention more nutricious for beef. Probably the reason Agman advocates clipping the grasses. 

There is a new article this month in "the stockman grass farmer" (a very good publication, which can be had for about $70 per year, that covers all things grazing) about preventing second bite. 
What they mean by that, for new graziers, is that you do not want to keep live stock on a paddock so long that after they have eaten a grass plant, they might bite a plant again after it starts to produce new leaves. Until the grass plant has had a healthy rest period. That healthy rest period varies depending on grass type, season, water, heat, soil health, and other things. But 28 days is often thrown out as a starting place.

I believe these variables are also why Agman is hesitant to give advice out side of his grazing area. Those are a lot a variables that take plenty of experience under a given circumstancial environment to fully understand. 

Sorry if i over steped my bounds with this answer.


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## francismilker

Agman, 

How's the drought out your way affecting your rotational grazing? Are you having to downsize or supplement with hay or feed? Do you have the availability to water pastures?


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## agmantoo

francismilker

My pastures are holding up nicely. I try to remain cautious when forage is abundant and not to get slack with the allocation each day as I understand how quickly the current situation can shift. The quality of the forage is dropping off but I do have enough built up to see the herd through July and August. I am planning to market feeder calves again shortly due to the price volatility and while the demand is for lighter calves at the sale barn. I remain with the opinion that if you have something to sell and you can make a profit, sell it. I never try to time the market. Moving some calves out will give a few of the first time heifers a chance to improve body condition and will reduce the load on the paddocks.


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## Maka

Hello Agman and all others. I have been enjoying reading through this thread. I have posted but it has been a while. I have finally purchased my piece of land. The meadow on the land has been in wheat and was recently harvested. It has left a matt of thatch (wheat stalks). My question is what should I do. I would liek for it to be cattle ready in about a year. I have seen some suggestions to just leave a field like this to see what comes up. Do you agree or should I be doing something this summer/fall? I do not have any equipment yet but could probably hire the neighbor to mow or possibly even disk it. I am just trying to avoid the "I wish I had..." when next year rolls around. And thanks to all the great advice on this thread. It is awesome. I am up to page 68.


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## ycanchu2

Maka said:


> Hello Agman and all others. I have been enjoying reading through this thread. I have posted but it has been a while. I have finally purchased my piece of land. The meadow on the land has been in wheat and was recently harvested. It has left a matt of thatch (wheat stalks). My question is what should I do. I would liek for it to be cattle ready in about a year. I have seen some suggestions to just leave a field like this to see what comes up. Do you agree or should I be doing something this summer/fall? I do not have any equipment yet but could probably hire the neighbor to mow or possibly even disk it. I am just trying to avoid the "I wish I had..." when next year rolls around. And thanks to all the great advice on this thread. It is awesome. I am up to page 68.


Don't know your location but I would wait untill mid august to the first of september then do a cocktail of fescue, persist orhardgrass, perenial ryegrass, marshal ryegrass either notill or disk and spread/drag.
Iwould caution against seeding anything now.....it could just come up and perish in the heat


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## agmantoo

Maka

Congratulations on your purchase! That appears to be productive land based on the residue left over from the recent crop. IMO your best bet is to prepare to plant this Fall by getting everything "push button ready". A soil sample is never a waste of time and money. It is imperative to keep up with the nutrient level of the property. Before recommending planting I would like to know your general location. Knowing the growing zone will permit better selections of what to plant along with the timing of the planting. Some idea of what type of animals you intend to produce and market would also be great. Would I be correct in thinking there is no fence around your property? Putting a written plan together of what you are planning to accomplish would aid in keeping you on schedule. For now just leave the straw on the ground as is. PS....are there any farmers nearby that would be willing to work with you until to get your own machinery? What grasses are growing on the roadsides near your place?


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## Maka

Sorry about not including the area. I am on CToday more where it shows my area. I live in S. Illinois (close to Waterloo) which is zone 6a. Seems like the grasses are johnson grass and fescue. White clover (and some red) seems to grow like crazy around here. As far as weeds, queen anns lace is everywhere as well as dandelions. I am planning on small to medium size cattle. Lots of herefords and angus around here. The land is mostly woods with oak and persimmons. I am not sure as to the number of head as I want to have the number this land can support, no more no less. Some people around here say they are able to run a cow and calf per acre. It is good quality land. It is 48 acres with about 16-17 acres of it in this wheatfield. You are correct, almost no fences. There is a little barb wire, some of it on the border some not. I will be putting together a plan for fencing as I want to do intensive grazing. When I get my ideas in place I will post a google view with fences. For now trying to get pastures ready, a pond dug, and a road into the place. There is a guy close by that is very nice and offered to help. 

Speaking of that I was planning on asking him to mow the place until I get a tractor and bushhog (prob next spring after I build a shed). Would you suggest I let him put it up in hay for mowing the place or pay him to mow and let the grass lay and turn into compost?

I will get a soil sample sent in right away. 

I am anxious to get this place set up and one of those people been living in the suburbs since I was 17. On a farm before that.

One other question I have. I would like to run the cattle in woods and pasture. Is it reasonably easy to run the polywire through the woods. I am speaking of the portion I move each day to let the cattle onto the next sectino of the paddock. One side of the pasture is a reasonable slope, the other pretty steep. Anyone running electric wire through a combination of forest and pasture each day?

It is great to have people to talk to about this project. Thanks


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## agmantoo

Maka said:


> Sorry about not including the area. I am on CToday more where it shows my area. I live in S. Illinois (close to Waterloo) which is zone 6a. Seems like the grasses are johnson grass and fescue. White clover (and some red) seems to grow like crazy around here. As far as weeds, queen anns lace is everywhere as well as dandelions. I am planning on small to medium size cattle. Lots of herefords and angus around here. The land is mostly woods with oak and persimmons. I am not sure as to the number of head as I want to have the number this land can support, no more no less. Some people around here say they are able to run a cow and calf per acre. It is good quality land. It is 48 acres with about 16-17 acres of it in this wheatfield. You are correct, almost no fences. There is a little barb wire, some of it on the border some not. I will be putting together a plan for fencing as I want to do intensive grazing. When I get my ideas in place I will post a google view with fences. For now trying to get pastures ready, a pond dug, and a road into the place. There is a guy close by that is very nice and offered to help.
> 
> Speaking of that I was planning on asking him to mow the place until I get a tractor and bushhog (prob next spring after I build a shed). Would you suggest I let him put it up in hay for mowing the place or pay him to mow and let the grass lay and turn into compost?
> 
> I will get a soil sample sent in right away.
> 
> I am anxious to get this place set up and one of those people been living in the suburbs since I was 17. On a farm before that.
> 
> One other question I have. I would like to run the cattle in woods and pasture. Is it reasonably easy to run the polywire through the woods. I am speaking of the portion I move each day to let the cattle onto the next sectino of the paddock. One side of the pasture is a reasonable slope, the other pretty steep. Anyone running electric wire through a combination of forest and pasture each day?
> 
> It is great to have people to talk to about this project. Thanks


If fescue thrives in your area that would be the forage of choice for me. I know of no grass that will give you more seasons of grazing and then add to extended feeding by offering good stockpiling characteristics with high protein. Hold off on planting clover until after the fescue gets established.
Rotational grazing will give you more carrying capacity per acre than conventional grazing. It allowed to stop feeding hay and to use that ground to increase the overall carrying capacity of the limited acres I have. Over time and by clearing a small portion of my place I now have 106 brood cows/heifers. Initially I started with 30 heifers.

At this time you need to be planning to put in a quality perimeter fence. The internal fencing done as I do requires minimal fencing for paddocks.

Not wanting to appear greedy but I strongly recommend not removing any residue or hay. Doing so and you are giving away nutrients that your place needs. A light discing of the wheat straw area in conjunction with seeding the forage grass could help the straw decompose and provide a great seed bed. I would not do anything until late August.

When the time arrives for you to layout your paddock areas you should be able to address how you are going to link the various areas and to create the means to tie everything together in an efficient beneficial manner. I do not use polywire in wooded areas.


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## SCRancher

I ran high-tensile fence through the woods on my perimeter so that is the vast majority but I do have 1 long section that has varying thicknesses of woods to reach the perimeter fence that I do run poly-wire through but a maximum of about 50 feet of woods. At first it was a real pain - had to use the machete to cut paths for the poly wire through the underbrush and even now it can be a bit of a pain now and then but once the cattle have had a few seasons in the woods it will be much easier to work through them. I would recommend getting the perimeter fence up through/around the woods and cattle in them to help clean the area up so you can work in it, then you can decide if you want to run poly wire through the woods.


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## WJMartin

On the woods issue, it depends on what you're working with. I'm in my first year of rotational grazing and have western red cedars, everywhere, but mostly in the pasture area. We bought a bobcat with a tree cutter attachment this spring and it is my very favorite thing ever, works better than our tractor w/cutter or two old folks with chainsaws. We are able to clear for a lane in a weekend and for the daily moves I'm using lopers to cut a path but will probably remove more trees as time is available. 

In our hard wood areas I have lots of underbrush and thorns so we cleared through only for perimeter and then fenced the cows daily forage on either side, they were in the tree area for only a week so I didn't see much improvement this year but I'm sure I will it will just take some time. Once the thorns and such are gone it won't take much to run the daily fence through since the trees are naturally clear underneath but we plan to clear trees enough to mow through with ease.


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## Maka

The woods on my place are mature oak. Some underbrush but quite navigable (of course worse in some places than others but not liek a cedar stand or anything). I feel like I could push step posts in most areas. Gets rocky in some but feel I could work around it. It of course wouldn't be a straight line through the woods going around trees. But I really want the cattle to clean the woods up and am hoping they would get something to eat at the same time. Another guy close by has beautiful clean forest and he told me he just lets the cows run on it and they do the work. He does not do rotational grazing however, he just has a perimeter fence and lets them run. I wondered if I could rotational graze the pasture and use two posts to raise a gate for them to get into the woods just like with the lane?? What do you think about that? The woods are also valulable for the cattle to laze around chewing their cud when it is hot.


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## dannybardwell

I am in the process of dividing my place into smaller lots. I can fairly easily have 8 plots from 6 to 25 acres. i am interested in MIG/rotational grazing to reduce fertilizer usage. 50-60 mama cows on 90 acres is my goal. my question.


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## hondac

agmantoo:

If you are having drought like conditions like we are having in mid-tennessee, how are your paddocks holding up? and what special planning do you do to handle this situation?
Thanks for your insight!!!


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## agmantoo

According to the drought map we are in a moderate drought condition. There have been some thunder storms recently but none at my location. I am holding OK. The drought of 2007/2008 was a bad learning experience and since then I have been careful not to waste forge going into the Summer. I started setting areas aside as early as April to graze should we get impacted by dry weather. My problem now is that I am having problems getting the pigtail posts inserted in the dry ground. I did graze my more moist bottom land early and that land is holding moisture and some growth is observable on the Red River crabgrass there. I will graze the crabgrass in August. My neighbors are feeding some hay. I went to the sale barn yesterday and there were a lot of animals being sold. It was around 8 PM before the last animal was auctioned. I do not know how many head went through but it took 9 + hours. The price of feeder calves was down by my guess by 30 cents/lb.


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## agmantoo

dannybardwell

Welcome to the site!

Please elaborate on your question. I would also like to know your general location and what is your primary forage?


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## dannybardwell

my question (i forgot to include it in my last post) is how to post a pdf of my land plot? I am in S.W. Mississippi. My pasture is about 75% bermuda, 20% bahaia, and a little clover and misc. greenery. Of course i have a hundred questions, but your past threads here and on CT. have answered many. The thought of reducing fertilizer cost is great. My pastures are in good shape fertility wise. Occassionally i can get chicken litter, but it is getting harder to get. I light disc and plant ryegrass in early October. if i get rain i can graze it lightly by Dec. it last about a 6-8 weeks and then needs top dressing.. By the end of Feb. it can be grazed fairly hard unitl mid-end of May. Like everyone else we need rain bad. MY neighbors are feeding hay. I am fortunate because i only have 20 mamas and a dozen or so calves.
I am in the planning stage, but ready to act...


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## agmantoo

dannybardwell

I use Photobucket to save marked up pics and then in turn use the sites options and copy the image. The image is added to my posts through Photobucket.. My camera is the easiest and quickest way for me to share. I only have equipment for a black and white capability otherwise. More computer savvy folks use Google Earth and mark up views with Google Scribble


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## dannybardwell

http://<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed1249.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh501%2Fxbred%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh501/xbred/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>


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## dannybardwell

Agmantoo: 
see links to photos, one is a map of how i plan to divide it into paddocks.
<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed1249.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh501%2Fxbred%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh501/xbred/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>


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## agmantoo

A brief question of those that are doing rotational grazing.
I am posting a very recent pic of a paddock that I clipped earlier to prolong the forage staying green. Being as July is just days away and we are very short on rain and I have 106 broodcows and some calves to feed during the normal dry months of July and August what would you do regarding the weeds in the pic?


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## SCRancher

Are you asking about clipping? If so I would say not to clip. Otherwise looks like great grazing as always your pastures are more lush than mine. I do have places this year where my clover is just as nice - perhaps even too dense but my grass is not that lush or dense.


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## agmantoo

dannybardwell

Is this what you are linking to above? Am I correct that the block in the top left is the homesite? Also it appears you are going to fence out the creek area? Do you have a perimeter fence in place?


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

I am curious as to what, if anything, that a rotational grazer would do? I am interested in the approach from how a traditional producer would handle the weeds as compared with an intensive rotational grazer. I do believe we rotational grazers view forage management very differently.


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## dannybardwell

the 1.7 acres is my homesite. the upper left is a neighbor's. yes there is a perimeter fence. The creek area 27.5 acres is lush with grass, but will flood for about an hour 1 or twice a year. The water that passes through in flood stage is about 1-2 feet deep and very swift, fences don't stay long there.


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## agmantoo

dannybardwell

Go to post #1991 and #2185 here and study what randyandmegs have submitted. Try to determine how a similar layout could be applied at your location. Post #2152 would be my recommendation for any permanent fencing within your perimeter fence. For efficiency try to make the paddocks rectangular and as long as possible but with access back to a lane to reach shade and water. Attempt to make the rectangles with the long sides 300 ft apart. Do not put cross fences in the rectangles as you can use poly wire there to control the size of the paddocks based on need and available forage. This design will permit a tractor to only have to turn at the ends of the rectangles for efficiency. If need be, send your marked up drawing as a before and I will post it.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo,

I see the broad leaf weeds at the bottom of the picture, I do not remember their name (EDIT: looked it up I think it may be Solanum Viarum or Tropical Soda Apple) but I do know they are an invasive species that I got a bulletin from the NRCS talking about them.

I too have them and they have increased from a hand full of plants to 10 times as many. These are not on my hit list really right now - I have a larger problem with bitter weed









I have a lot of other "weeds" but my cows eat them or parts of them - but if my cows eat them - even if it's just parts of them - I don't really classify them as weeds but as forage.

It's plants that my cows don't touch at all that I consider weeds - like the one in your picture or bitter weed.

My bitter weed issue has grown to a point that in one of my sections I will spray several times next year to control - even if that means wiping out my clovers in that section. The section really needs to be renovated anyway because it has very little fescue left in it. So this fall I plan on grazing very short, reseeding, and fertilizing in the fall and spring with inorganic fert while spraying until I have just grass left. Then the following winter (early 2014) I will reseed that section with clovers.

I guess unless you want to go around spot spraying or wiping out your clovers I would just leave them until they became more of an issue.

Now you have me thinking - what would YOU do? I will have to take a few pictures of the section I'm planning on working on to see what you think.


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## bigbluegrass

agmantoo: I would not mow for those weeds in the picture above. I don't see it as a problem yet and since it is dry you will do more damage than good in my opinion. I would mow it if the weeds were causing excessive competition for the grass, even if it were dry. Last summer I had ragweed come in really thick and it was shading out my grass in late summer. It wasn't as dry as this year, but it was dry. I mowed it all down ahead of the cows and behind them, wherever it was shading out my grass. The grass responded quickly and was growing again within weeks. My only regret was not mowing it down sooner. My cows just didn't eat the ragweed very well once it got mature. Now if they were eating it, I don't think I would have mowed it. 

If it were my pasture, I would let it be and hopefully get the cows on it before the clover goes brown. If it starts to get invasive, you could spray it, but that is a long ways off in my opinion. A good stand of fescue can compete with most weeds in the spring and fall.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> A brief question of those that are doing rotational grazing.
> I am posting a very recent pic of a paddock that I clipped earlier to prolong the forage staying green. Being as July is just days away and we are very short on rain and I have 106 broodcows and some calves to feed during the normal dry months of July and August what would you do regarding the weeds in the pic?


The only weeds I see are in the lower left hand corner, some sort of briar...don't know the name, I have some. Looks like you have some leftover cereal rye maturing, not a problem. Did you overseed that last fall?
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you grazed/mowed it in April then this is about 60 to 70 days growing. Wil it start to deteriorate if not grazed or mowed soon? What about mowing just the tops of the leaves to stimulate new growth for the part of the field that is 30 days or so from being grazed? The wild card is rain. If you got a decent rain I think I would clip part of it 1/2 or so to keep it actively growing.


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## randyandmegs

Looks like Horsenettle to me. This is what I found on it. Just a complete guess but I would make paddock as small as possible to get by and have cattle stomp it out while grazing the good stuff.
http://www.ppws.vt.edu/scott/weed_id/horsenettle.PDF


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## myersfarm

I agree Horsenettle I know cows will not eat it after the cows came though.... if I only had a few I would cut them down with a bean hook if I had to many I would spray them


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## Maka

I have some of both the horesenettle and whatever that other broadleaf center lower is coming up in my undeveloped pasture. Seems to be more drought tolerant than the fescure and other grasses in my field of recently thrashed wheat. Will cattle eat the broadleaf (the one thats not horsenettle)?


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## agmantoo

Depends on what the broadleaf is. Some broadleaf plants with be eaten when small and growing but later rejected.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> SCRancher
> 
> I am curious as to what, if anything, that a rotational grazer would do?


I would cut the allotment in half and double the moves so as to ensure that it got trampled.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

Great suggestion! I might even reduce the allocation


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## ufo_chris

WJMartin said:


> On the woods issue, it depends on what you're working with. I'm in my first year of rotational grazing and have western red cedars, everywhere, but mostly in the pasture area. We bought a bobcat with a tree cutter attachment this spring and it is my very favorite thing ever, works better than our tractor w/cutter or two old folks with chainsaws. We are able to clear for a lane in a weekend and for the daily moves I'm using lopers to cut a path but will probably remove more trees as time is available.
> 
> In our hard wood areas I have lots of underbrush and thorns so we cleared through only for perimeter and then fenced the cows daily forage on either side, they were in the tree area for only a week so I didn't see much improvement this year but I'm sure I will it will just take some time. Once the thorns and such are gone it won't take much to run the daily fence through since the trees are naturally clear underneath but we plan to clear trees enough to mow through with ease.


I have a couple of acres of thick woods that I'd love to let the cattle in (only 7 head) but it has many wild cherry trees and I'm always afraid I won't notice a tree or branch down and they will eat the wilted leaves and die.
Does anyone know, I know it varies from animal to animal, but would they only eat the wilted leaves if there is nothing else to eat?
As it stands I only let them in in winter but there are plenty of grasses and shrubs they would eat.


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris

Regarding the cherry trees.....I have hundreds of these on my place. I seldom give the cherry trees any concern. A bovine with some forage in its system can tolerate some cherry tree leaves without any noticeable consequence. I would put cattle on forage and then give them access. If a tornado or very heavy windstorm should come though then move them out of the area where a lot of limbs or entire trees were blown over. I just do not view the standing cherry trees as a risk. Lightning is the concern that I have. I have lost cattle to lightning over time. In one instance I lost 7 that were under a shade tree. The tree was not an isolated tree either.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> Gabriel
> 
> Great suggestion! I might even reduce the allocation


I don't think I would do that, at least not before trying the faster moves alone. I say that because I have done that and it really hurt the recovery time. The trampling doesn't seem to hurt the regrowth (of grass, it does hurt the weeds) like the grazing does. Have you been doing it/how has it turned out?


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## ufo_chris

agmantoo said:


> ufo_chris
> 
> Regarding the cherry trees.....I have hundreds of these on my place. I seldom give the cherry trees any concern. A bovine with some forage in its system can tolerate some cherry tree leaves without any noticeable consequence. I would put cattle on forage and then give them access. If a tornado or very heavy windstorm should come though then move them out of the area where a lot of limbs or entire trees were blown over. I just do not view the standing cherry trees as a risk. Lightning is the concern that I have. I have lost cattle to lightning over time. In one instance I lost 7 that were under a shade tree. The tree was not an isolated tree either.


Thanks so much Agmantoo!


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## agmantoo

Gabriel said:


> I don't think I would do that, at least not before trying the faster moves alone. I say that because I have done that and it really hurt the recovery time. The trampling doesn't seem to hurt the regrowth (of grass, it does hurt the weeds) like the grazing does. Have you been doing it/how has it turned out?


Considering the drought all is going OK. I have observed that I am getting more weeds trampled and the grazed areas should improve with less weeds should I get water before long. Both the grazed and the ungrazed areas are starting to brown more as each dry day passes. The grazed areas are not eaten to the ground however.


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## WJMartin

This is my first year MIG and just wanted to share some of what I'm learning thanks to this thread.

This field was grazed and then mowed, about 6 weeks ago. There is actually more green in the field than this pic shows.








This field is 20 feet away, grazed but not mowed, 4 weeks ago. There is alot more weed growth and its almost impossible to actually determine grass growth. It really should have been grazed harder and then mowed.








As you can see the dry and heat are really hurting the fields but I do have some areas that are still producing.


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## dannybardwell

i have not responded to agmantoo, but i am working toward MIG. I am very intrigued by the concept. i know it is not new, but why more don't use it is beyond me...


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## JoePilot

I'm trying to calculate pasture needs for 2 dairy cows and a beef cow. I want to grow winter feed all on the farm and during growing season allow the cows to eat pasture (utilizing a paddock rotation). If a 1 thousand pound cow needs 25lbs of dry matter a day would I safely assume that 2 dairy cows and a beef cow would require 75lb of dry matter a day? Or do the dairy cows require more?

If the 75 a day dry matter is ok (approx 14 tons annually) and an average pasture produces 4 tons dry matter annually can I safely assume I need 14/4 = 3.5 acres for all three cows? Again I'm assuming that part will be used to harvest winter feed and the remaining would be for pasture. In Ohio I've learned from some farmer the growing season is roughly 180 days. 

Sorry if this is a loaded question. I could not locate the answer to this question in this forum. Thanks for your time!


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## myersfarm

cows eat 3% of body weight if avaliable ....so how much do cows weight and if your area produces 4 tons dry matter what are you basing that on...fertilzed great pasture or a hay field


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## trbizwiz

dry matter is fine, for a filler. But nutrition of that dry matter will tell you more about the condition your animals will be able to maintain. A lot of things go into nutrition. Forage species has a little to do with it, as does soil fertility, weather, and climate have a large amount to do with it. Rest and recovery have a great deal to do with it. 
The perfect soil in the perfect climate, with the perfect forage would likely be a good starting point for your 75 lbs per day. But the quality of that forage will vary seasonally. that is fine for beef cows. A little loss of condition is expected in the cool and hot seasons. I doubt dairy will be as forgiving. Extreme weather will require longer rest periods. If you are feeding grass only, double ro triple what your extension agent says and you should be safe. they will assume you are putting up hay, and supplementing feed. 
Stockpiling forage is very helpful in extreme season feeding. You need land that doesnt get used other than clipping during the rest of the year to keep the forage green. It will provide good quality forage during extreme weather. More land costs more though so you will have to weigh, buying hay or feed with buying land. For your small herd, more land is likely a better solution. Then if the crap hits the fan buy hay. 
Give some geographic and climate info, along with sorage species, dn soil fertility info, adn I am sure Agman will give you some very helpful advice. You gotta give him the tools though.


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## JoePilot

myersfarm & trbizwiz Thank you for quick responses: The density will be estimated with a pasture stick. I plan to get 3 Dexters. From my understanding they will be maximized size at 750lb or so. I am in USDA zone 5b -15Â°F to -10Â°F. The Land I plan to put them on is showing a Ph of 6.5 right now but I don't have fertility info. It is however growing a thick field of clover. (thick defined by my untrained eye, haha) Thanks so much for the instant feedback!

Joe


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## bigbluegrass

JoePilot:
The way agman figures how much area to let his cows have is in real time. He puts them in, gives them 45 minutes to see what they eat, then doubles that area. Then you move them based on how eager they are to move (i.e. how hungry they are). If the are pushing, eager to get into the new paddock and acting really hungry, eating the grass down to the ground, they need more area. If they are not in any hurry to move and are leaving a lot behind, you need to make the paddocks smaller. You have to change the size of the paddock depending on the time of year, what your goals are, stage of lactation for your cows, how the grass is growing, so forth and so on. You really have to make the adjustments as you are going - almost on a daily basis. It is helpful to do the math to get started, but in all reality, once you get going you won't need to do much figuring. But since I like math...

If you want to get a rough idea of how much area you need, pasture will range from 100 to 400 #/acre per inch of height. 100 #/Acre is the poor pasture. 400 #/acre is really good pasture. If you let your grass get to 12" and you want to leave 4", you will have 800 to 3200 # per acre of grass. You thought you could get 4 tons per acres annually, how many cuttings is that? If you are doing that in two cuttings and the grass is 18" high at the cutting, that is about the same as 300 #/Acre per inch of grass. 

So for your 3 cows, if your grass is really good (and 12" high), you could feed them on as little as 11 square yards per day with daily moves, but it would almost need to be square because they won't hardly have room to turn around. If your grass is not good, you could be as high as 60 square yards. I would start out at 60 square yards of area and move them daily - see how it goes. See what they do with that and increase or decrease.

You can see the area varies greatly. The only way to tell is to put the cows in there and see what they would do. There are too many variables to predict actual performance just based on calculations... which is probably why agman tells people to see what they eat in 45 minutes and double that..... hope that helps some.


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## Gabriel

bigbluegrass said:


> JoePilot:
> The way agman figures how much area to let his cows have is in real time. He puts them in, gives them 45 minutes to see what they eat, then doubles that area.


That works great, as long as it's in an area that has good grass. If it's sparse, short, etc. then you need to be very careful. Also, it requires that you actually have the cattle, you can't plan ahead and decide how many you need. Check with the extension agent for their recommendation, then under stock, IMHO. This drought doesn't look like it's leaving us (you) any time soon. 

Saw your other thread, thought I'd answer here. Lowlines are, imo, good to have. Smaller cattle generally = more total pounds per acre while still producing a calf that gets large enough to not get docked.


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## MarkM

I don't plan on being back to this paddock until grazing winter stockpile.

What height should I clip this to after the current grazing?


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## trbizwiz

Agman just keeps the seed heads from forming.


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## MarkM

I clipped ahead of the herd earlier in the year. It just seems to me that I would want to put most of what is still standing after they graze on the ground. As well as, hopefully, reducing the weed pressure some as the fall approaches and the cool season grasses grow to be stockpiled for winter use.

The mature fescue in the picture is not their favorite, so they leave quite a bit of it ungrazed.


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## randyandmegs

Im at the sale barn this morning. What is going on to have to prices so low compared to the past months/years? I heard some old timers say the US corn supply is going to be short and the feed lots are not buying as many head. Or is this normal for this time of year? Glad I just sold my bull and did well but same heifers I bought are going cheaper. I may just buy some more.


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## trbizwiz

When farmers do not have grass cows sell cheap. It is a lot more popular to sell when you have a limited supply of feed. More selling and less buying has a definite effect on supply and demand. 
Seems herds are getting thinned, so I would expect a lower supply next spring. If you thought beef prices were high this year wait until next spring. Assuming you can feed them all winter. Hay will be tight with the weather we have had.


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## agmantoo

I concur with with the comments by trbizwiz. Drought forced more animals to be marketed so the market has adequate beef at this time. Prices for feeder cattle are tied to corn prices and the availability of corn. The availability of stored corn and the projection of a poor crop have feed lot operators concerned with how they are going to cope. Additionally July is often a bad month for me to sell as after the 4th the consumer demand seems to drop. As the demand for future needs pick up for beef and the markets rise, the higher priced corn and corn byproducts will look more affordable for feed lot managers. I know that randyandmegs has surplus grass and if the budget permits then buying more heifers would average down the costs of the previously purchased heifers and at the same time increase more marketable calves next year.

Just as a heads up from my prospective. Hay availability IMO will be lacking this coming Winter. Forage seed also may be expensive and in short supply this coming Fall. As rotational grazers we need to continue to watch the weather and if conditions look promising we need to be in position to go through the Winter with the least dependence of hay as possible. To accomplish this, Fall planted grasses and grains may be a must. For myself if there is adequate moisture in late August I will prepare to establish as much cool season grazing as possible. Crimson clover, annual ryegrass and fescue will be on my list. Meanwhile I will continue my efforts to conserve the forages I currently have. I encourage those that are following this thread to address their future feed needs now and planning on how they will get through the Winter.


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## randyandmegs

I did get to pick up two more nice AA heifers in the 650-700 range. Almost 40 cent less/lb. than the last five. Sold 2 sheep and processed meat chickens this week and ended up making money on the deal as a whole. I have borrowed panels and a squeeze chute from the county cattleman association and started running them through it and giving them sweet feed afterwords. Trying to imprint that these first memories of the squeeze chute are not bad. I have already tagged all but one while giving them treats. Most of what I am working on is from Temple Grandins suggestions. I going to get AI certified and the end of the month and plan to order semen from Pharo for the Sept/Oct AI breeding. Hope to pick up at least 3 more heifers for my start.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> I concur with with the comments by trbizwiz. Drought forced more animals to be marketed so the market has adequate beef at this time. Prices for feeder cattle are tied to corn prices and the availability of corn. The availability of stored corn and the projection of a poor crop have feed lot operators concerned with how they are going to cope. Additionally July is often a bad month for me to sell as after the 4th the consumer demand seems to drop. As the demand for future needs pick up for beef and the markets rise, the higher priced corn and corn byproducts will look more affordable for feed lot managers. I know that randyandmegs has surplus grass and if the budget permits then buying more heifers would average down the costs of the previously purchased heifers and at the same time increase more marketable calves next year.
> 
> Just as a heads up from my prospective. Hay availability IMO will be lacking this coming Winter. Forage seed also may be expensive and in short supply this coming Fall. As rotational grazers we need to continue to watch the weather and if conditions look promising we need to be in position to go through the Winter with the least dependence of hay as possible. To accomplish this, Fall planted grasses and grains may be a must. For myself if there is adequate moisture in late August I will prepare to establish as much cool season grazing as possible. Crimson clover, annual ryegrass and fescue will be on my list. Meanwhile I will continue my efforts to conserve the forages I currently have. I encourage those that are following this thread to address their future feed needs now and planning on how they will get through the Winter.


Agmantoo,
What is it you like about crimson clover over other clovers? And also do you overseed any with cereal rye or just with ryegrass?


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## agmantoo

*Agmantoo,
What is it you like about crimson clover over other clovers? And also do you overseed any with cereal rye or just with ryegrass?

*

Crimson clover will provide high production earlier grazing of a legume in the Spring. As the crimson dies off the ladino clovers will be producing. My wife likes it also as she thinks it is pretty.

Cereal rye is used by me on poor land needing organic matter and that I want to get under production. It seems to grow most anywhere and holds erosion in check. 

Annual rye grass works in conjunction with my endophyte infected fescue. The rye grass has vigorous growth and contributes to early grazing and may offset some of the endophyte issues.


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## Gabriel

I finally got my new mineral feeder system set up. It's 15 minerals and vitamins, plus salt. They're definitely going for some and ignoring others.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
I am most curious on what minerals are being consumed. 
Do you have time to share information on which minerals the cattle are eating in descending order?


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> I finally got my new mineral feeder system set up. It's 15 minerals and vitamins, plus salt. They're definitely going for some and ignoring others.


I had some lime dumped on my farm back in the spring and I spread it with a lime spreader that the NRCS rents out. After I had it dumped I got to thinking maybe the cattle would start eating on it and OD on it or something since most mineral rations have a fairly high amount of ground limestone in it for their calcium source. Cattle must have to have "large amounts" of calcium since most mineral mixes have between 10 and 20 % in the mix.
To my surprise the cows tromped all over and around the lime but hardly touched it. I'm sure they may have tasted of it out of curiosity but they didn;t eat it.
I am curious also to what your results were, because in my opinion, cattle wouldn't touch very little of the mineral mixes unless they were doctored/flavored up with something like DDG or molasses.


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## Gabriel

Alkaline mix, magnesium, phosphorus, acid mix, trace mineral mix 1, calcium, potassium. And a little salt. Before I brought these minerals in, they had 6 weeks of no minerals, just salt. There is a spot in one of the paddocks where I had to repair a water faucet, they all like to paw at and eat the red clay there. I'll be watching to see what they do when we get back around to that spot.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

Possibly unknowingly, you have replied to my major interest in what you are doing with the minerals. I have a fist full of different mineral bag labels for the contents therein. As I have stated elsewhere my animals also eat red clay. Prior conclusion from what little information I have collected has me thinking the red clay consumption is from inadequate phosphorus. Please continue to keep us updated to your observations with your minerals. Thanks


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## MarkM

I have the same cafeteria style setup and phosphorus is BY FAR the one they consume the most. Probably 10 to 1 over anything else other than loose salt.

The soils are only slightly deficient in phosporus. There is obviously more to the puzzle.


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## Awnry Abe

agmantoo said:


> For myself if there is adequate moisture in late August I will prepare to establish as much cool season grazing as possible. Crimson clover, annual ryegrass and fescue will be on my list. Meanwhile I will continue my efforts to conserve the forages I currently have. I encourage those that are following this thread to address their future feed needs now and planning on how they will get through the Winter.


These are complete nube questions: Do you broadcast seed or use a seed drill on established pasture that is burnt to a crisp? Do you mix the aforementioned seeds and sew at once or make multiple passes?

(FYI, going to go pay for 60 bales for the winter today. It was cut in May. Not wanting to risk going without this winter, I am willing to pay the $75/bale today. The seller triple-wrapped, so it should last several years if I don't use it all this winter. )


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## trbizwiz

You want soil contact and moisture. In absence of either I would not plant. Wait until early fall to plant. Agman perfers broadcast spreadign most times, but he does drill some. Probably mostly hills, though I do not remeber exactly what he said was his determining factor. 
With burnt forage soil contact should nto be an issue, just drag it after spreading to get a little dust around the seed. then pray like crazy for rain. Tender grass can not tollerate thsi heat either so average temperatures need to be closer to 80 or so. I assume you are thinking fall annual crop, like rye, or oats or brassicas?? Your fescue should return this fall. It is not dead just dormant. A little fertilizer this fall might be a good idea. Perhaps some litter???


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## randyandmegs

I just finished AI class today and already have Pharo, ABS and Select sire books. My heifers get wormed and vaccinated today and will come out of quarantine early next week and will go into the rotational grazing system. Now on to find a good used chute system.


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## SCRancher

I personally like For-Most as does my vet - many good complements from my vet about the chute/head gate I have. The only complaint that he and I have had with it is trying to nurse an uncooperative cow through the chute - the lower bar is a bit too low.

For-Most Livestock Equipment | Model 450 & 450W Squeeze Chute


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## HDRider

SCRancher said:


> I personally like For-Most as does my vet - many good complements from my vet about the chute/head gate I have. The only complaint that he and I have had with it is trying to nurse an uncooperative cow through the chute - the lower bar is a bit too low.
> 
> For-Most Livestock Equipment | Model 450 & 450W Squeeze Chute


How much does that thing cost?


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## SCRancher

The price I paid with the following options was $6,142.50
Cost Break Down for what I purchased.
Model 450 Chute / Model 30 Headgate / Palp Cage - Cost $4,693
Neck Access Door Kit - Cost $365
Split Tail Gate - Cost $685
Neck Bars - Cost $105
Half (Open Bar) Tub - Cost $1,609
2 8' Starter Palels $209 ea - Cost $418
Sub Total $7,875
22% Price Discount -$1,732.50

Total Cost $6,142.50

Expensive but how much is your safety worth?


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## Gabriel

I have just secured a lease, in principle, for 40 acres of good (although untested, as yet) cropland. The owner is not a farmer and has been leasing it out for the growing of the typical corn/beans/winter wheat rotation. However, he would like for it to be managed organically and wants to eventually make a living (at least part of his income) from it. Fencing is non-existent, but the installation of electric fence would be applied toward the cost of the lease. I'm kicking around some ideas with him as to how to best utilize the property to meet his goals. For my own goals, I'd like to use it as a place to "grass finish" (the land owner of my current lease doesn't want me doing any tillage) and provide off season grazing for my own cattle. The current lessee has it for a while longer, 'til he harvests his beans. What do y'all recommend we plant for the winter grazing season? Same question for the summer season.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel,

When I lease land from or to others I consider the right to the property allows the use of the land as long as the best management practices are in placet. I do stipulate that soil samples be taken and that the soil is not to drop below what those sample results. I do believe that I could take a proven piece of property and maintain it in organic or near organic compliance. I cannot do that with a parcel in need of attention. If a property is going to be grazed year round there will be times when ground will have to be "worked" minimally to correct for pugging and cattle paths or reseeding. You may need to address some of these potential issues NOW. Being in Tennessee I would think your best grazing would be from following the same regimen as me. Plant 100% of the open land to fescue (20 lbs/acre) and annual ryegrass(10 lbs/acre) intermixed as soon as possible following the harvest of the beans. Late winter sparing plant (overseed broadcast) your clovers, Ladino varieties and red(low end of the recommended rates). Hold off grazing in the Spring until the grasses get a decent root system established and graze lightly and rotate frequently. Clip the pastures as high as the rotary cutter will adjust to minimize weeds and to encourage the grasses to branch out. It will take 3 years to get a stand that you can be proud of. If you have any bottom land that is damp in the heat of Summer plant Red River crabgrass, over the fescue, in the Spring.


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## ramiller5675

Gabriel said:


> However, he would like for it to be managed organically and wants to eventually make a living (at least part of his income) from it. Fencing is non-existent, but the installation of electric fence would be applied toward the cost of the lease.


I would want to know exactly what he means when he says "...he would like for it to be managed organically and wants to eventually make a living (at least part of his income) from it..."

Transitioning land to being certified organic is a lot more involved than not spraying herbicide or using any fertilizer. 

And, if he is planning on eventually making his living by grazing his own livestock, I wouldn't be too keen on doing all the work of improving his pasture just to lose the lease in a few years when he decides to try his hand at grazing cattle. 

Drilling some winter wheat after the soybeans would be the easiest and probably cheapest way to get started. You could graze it over the winter, bale it for hay in early spring, and then would probably have a volunteer crop of some sort of warm-season grass in the summer. You might even have a volunteer crop of ryegrass come up in your wheat, let some of it go to seed and you can avoid the cost of buying ryegrass seed. 

Or, you could mix in a little ryegrass and/or crabgrass into your wheat seed and plant it all in one shot this fall. 

If you are leasing (especially in the beginning), unless you have an iron-clad lease agreement, it is always better to spend as little cash as possible, because you never know what your landlord is thinking or planning.


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## Gabriel

Thanks, both of you. 

He's not wanting to be _certified_ organic.

He will be doing the daily moves, with routine checkups by me to insure that it's going well. We're friends and I would simply advise him on the switch, but he can't afford to do it all himself. (I know, I know, friends and business...) 

What I'm leaning towards right now is planting something for winter grazing, such as rye/w' wheat and at the right time in the spring, grazing that close so as to set it back enough to be able to plant something like Baldridge grazing maize in order to finish out some yearlings. Although I'm very much a low input sort of thinker, in this case it will be transitioning slowly while giving both of us more profit in the short term. Since I'm not in this property for the long term... is this plan crazy?


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Thanks, both of you.
> 
> He's not wanting to be _certified_ organic.
> 
> He will be doing the daily moves, with routine checkups by me to insure that it's going well. We're friends and I would simply advise him on the switch, but he can't afford to do it all himself. (I know, I know, friends and business...)
> 
> What I'm leaning towards right now is planting something for winter grazing, such as rye/w' wheat and at the right time in the spring, grazing that close so as to set it back enough to be able to plant something like Baldridge grazing maize in order to finish out some yearlings. Although I'm very much a low input sort of thinker, in this case it will be transitioning slowly while giving both of us more profit in the short term. Since I'm not in this property for the long term... is this plan crazy?


What about grazing Rye(cereal rye for grazing) I planted some last fall in Oct. and grazed it a few weeks later and it seemed to grow all winter and I acually could have started grazing it about the first week in March, but I waited a little too long. Wheat or Rye I would put some ryegrass with it, its more palatable and nutritious than the cereals are.
I also planted some ...Persist Orchardgrass....it was developed there in Tenn. a few years ago. It has done real well during the hot summer and regrows quickly.
I have tried the corn planting for grazing route and a lot of people do it but you are always having to plant something after it year after year.
I think if you got it established with some good grasses even fescue which I like, but seem to have trouble getting it established at times, you would have almost as much grazing forage without the interuption of planting something after the corn not to mention all the tractor work.


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## ramiller5675

If you are going to try finishing cattle by grazing corn (of any variety, Baldridge, OP, or whatever) it is going to take a certain amount of Nitrogen and possibly P and K. 

Having 100+ lbs. of N per acre available for your corn without spreading fertilizer isn't going to be easy. 

I've had the idea of grazing sorghum-sudangrass (Haygrazer), but it takes fertilizer and having the nitrate levels at a safe level for grazing or haying has proven difficult.


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## ycanchu2

Here is something you can do also if you want to plant corn next spring. Go ahead with the fall seeding regimin then about the last of April...plow it with a moldboard plow, work it up and plant some open pollinated corn. You won't need to fertilize it with anything unless you just want too. Thats the way the old timers did it and made 60 or 70 bushels to the acre of corn that was about 13% protein compared to todays 7 or 8% GMO corn and a whole lot more nutritious. But I digress, you will be grazing it. Plowing stimulates biological activity somewhat, but in a different way, as fertilize does.
I have some of the old Hickory King planted in my garden now and its a bout 10 feet tall and green as a guord. If you wanted to you could cultivate it but you wouldn't have to, the weeds and grasses that grow up in it, most of it the cattle will love like crabgrass, Johnsongrass, morning glory.
All this I have done so I know what I talking about, it will work. Its just a lot of work every year.


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## agmantoo

From my standpoint here is how I reached my recommendation. The length of the lease is uncertain. The land is already in decent condition with the soybeans having been planted, probably drilled and probably roundup ready. There should be very little trash and there should be some residual nitrogen in the soil. Fertilizer is expensive and and due to fuel prices breaking the ground does not sound cost effective. With the fescue you would only plant one time. The ryegrass would add to the total forage able to graze initially. The clover would come on slowly adding nitrogen. Properly cared for and with rain forage should be available all Summer. Over time the crabgrass should slowly add to Summer grazing. The fescue can be stockpiled for Winter. All totaled, more forage and for a longer time should exits at a lower maintenance costs until the land is reclaimed by the owner. Having to buy feeder calves to feed out or just to but weight on seems to me to be a forthcoming high price venture with a lot of associated risks. I would let the land produce the gains it can produce with limited inputs. IMO some profit can be had but some astute reasoning needs to prevail.


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## trbizwiz

This is hardly in keeping with the rotatinal system, but I read about it in the Stockman grass farmer adn I was inspired. It seems a dairy in UT is using fodder as a grass feeding supplement to avoid alfalfa hay and silage shortages. 
Here is a quick link on youtube on how fodder is grown. This seems very cool to me

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDRe-xKcEn4&feature=related]Seed to feed in 8 days with the Fodder-Pro Feed System by FarmTek - YouTube[/ame]

Seems in drouts like this summer fodder could be grown in poly feed troughs in a shaded high tunnel. the poly troughs would be on wheels. after the 6 day germination the poly troughs would be wheeled out to the animals for feeding. I guess the animals eat the whole plant. C2 farms claims 60 TDN adn 20% protein in oat sprouts. They say they can grow 110 acre equivilant in a heated insulated 26x36 barn. Clearly this is very energy dependant, adn causes a lot more mechanization. BUt growing it during a drout (high tunnel woudl have to be shaded with mesh to not burn the sprouts), and late fall and early spring when day light conditions are favorable for growing in a cheaply built high tunnel, perhaps would make this a practical supplement.


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## CesumPec

very interesting TRB. I think I'll have to experiment with a home created system like that. I can also see it being a good swine feed supplement for a small scale operation such as what i have planned.


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## ycanchu2

CesumPec said:


> very interesting TRB. I think I'll have to experiment with a home created system like that. I can also see it being a good swine feed supplement for a small scale operation such as what i have planned.


Its like growing wheatgrass or alfalfa sprouts on a huge scale. FYI Alfalfa sprouts are supposed to be one of the most nutritious of all food. Ideal survival food to easily grow.


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## Awnry Abe

I saw that article and thought, "Man, I can't even grow mold. How would I ever do that?". I am at least a decade away from taking a crack at something like that. I do think it is very innovative.


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## agmantoo

Price out whatever seed that you consider sprouting at $7 to $9 per 60 lb bushel and calculate what the sprouted seeds would costs to feed a 1000 lb cow. She is going to need 2 1/2 to 3 percent, at a low level of moisture, of her body weight . I believe you will quickly come to the conclusion that this process is not justifiable on a scale for the production of meat. Additionally my cattle are loose when on clover, I certainly would not want to be behind one eating just sprouts.

PS sprouted seed do not match my definition of Fodder.


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## trbizwiz

It does not really fit my ideal of grass feeding. I also figured the cost would be high. I thought of it more as a supplement during tough forage times. Sprouts would be more digestible than the grain so likely more efficient. 
Also after watching many videos. Evidently light us not a part of the process. So any storage area where you could seal it with plastic to maintain humidity would probably work. 
Seems buying seed and making fodder would be more consistent than buying hay which varies in quality. 
I don't have an opinion yet on feasibility. But the idea is fascinating to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ycanchu2

Just wondering what the consensus was about seeding/overseeding now....is it too soon now or should I wait a couple of weeks?


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> Just wondering what the consensus was about seeding/overseeding now....is it too soon now or should I wait a couple of weeks?


I think it's too soon for Rye, but not wheat. I consulted my farmer friend on that issue last week. :happy2: What are you sowing?


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> I think it's too soon for Rye, but not wheat. I consulted my farmer friend on that issue last week. :happy2: What are you sowing?


I plan on sowing some fescue but mostly some persist orchard grass in my pastures that have been overgrazed for years, where there is a good amount of fescue but spots where it has died out and crabgrass is in those spots. I also am planning on overseeding some marshall ryegrass or Zorro italian ryegrass in my pastures that I intend to winter graze and for early spring grazing and maybe some cereal graze Rye but I may wait untill late september for that cause it comes right up.


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## cedarvalley

AGMANTOO: I am curious as to how many total usable pasture acres you have, and how many cow/calf pairs your running year round?


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## agmantoo

cedarvalley

I have 106 breeding age cows, one old bull, one yearling bull and one bull that weighs roughly 800 lbs that I bought recently. I have 141 verified acres in pasture. I calve year round and I market usually 4 times per year. With the drought this year I shortened the time period with one load by selling some calves light as I anticipated the price dropping. By June I had marketed 48 feeder calves and 2 cull cows. Currently I have more than 30 calves of various sizes and will market another load in the Fall and will carry some over into 2013 as I have a number or cows showing pregnancy. It get a little hard to keep up as all animals are in one herd. I will also take a few more aged cows out this fall and drop back to 100 mature cows. I feel that I could go up with the head count except for the Summer months. I did the number crunch with buying feed for the time periods that I could not comfortably depend on pasture feeding and concluded that the effort was not justifiable. I am considering putting a hay storage building up to store hay. for emergency use. At this time I only have 16 days worth of hay on hand. I have had these bales for 3 plus years and hope to never have to use them. Without severe drought I can run a cow and her calf on 1.4 acres without hay.
Here are a few of the cattle late this evening


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## trbizwiz

No one does it better, years of pasture building and selection made it work. It is a fantastic model.


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## Awnry Abe

agmantoo said:


> cedarvalley
> 
> I have 141 verified acres in pasture. I calve year round and I market usually 4 times per year. With



Can you expand on "verified acres"? I have 217, but that includes my homestead, barnyard, a size able lake, and some woods. Is there a good, cheap method of nailing down the actual pasture acreage? Today, the point is mute because my head count is low. But I'd like to have a number in mind so I know when to start planning on seriously culling some of the undesirable cows.


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## agmantoo

CrownRanch

I had a farm service to come to my place and they used their GPS equipment and a software package to compute each paddock of my farm. They also pulled a soil sample while here. The fee was less than $4 per acre. They supplied a nearly current satellite view with each paddock marked exactly as laid out and each paddock is numbered and I can take soil samples and the farm service knows exactly where and how much lime to apply should I call. The chicken litter I have spread for fertilizer is from a layer house and there is a lot of calcium in the manure so I seldom require additional lime. Over time I increased my headcount from 30 to 50 to 80 to 100 until I peaked out with what I can carry all year without hay. Land is expensive here and I will not increase my land holdings in the neighborhood for cattle as it is not justifiable. I am at a loss as to how to increase my productivity and to hold the efficiency without negatively impacting my low cost producer position.


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## ycanchu2

CrownRanch said:


> Can you expand on "verified acres"? I have 217, but that includes my homestead, barnyard, a size able lake, and some woods. Is there a good, cheap method of nailing down the actual pasture acreage? Today, the point is mute because my head count is low. But I'd like to have a number in mind so I know when to start planning on seriously culling some of the undesirable cows.


Your local FSA office can give you a farm map and within your farm just how many acres you have in pasture.


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## Gabriel

Google Planimeter - This site allows you to draw in the borders and automatically gives you the acreage inside your drawing. 

Scribble Maps - Draw on google maps with scribblings and more! - Similar, better "scribbling" ability and also gives you straight line distances, but no acreage measurement function that I've found.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Google Planimeter - This site allows you to draw in the borders and automatically gives you the acreage inside your drawing.
> 
> Scribble Maps - Draw on google maps with scribblings and more! - Similar, better "scribbling" ability and also gives you straight line distances, but no acreage measurement function that I've found.


I can get the markers on the parameters but no acreage comes up.


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> I can get the markers on the parameters but no acreage comes up.


On "Planimeter" it's shown just below the bottom of the map, above "notes". Nothing will be there until you start putting in way points.


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## WJMartin

Gabriel, I'm not sure weither to thank you for the links or not. I used up a whole morning playing on those sites! It was really fun and I plotted out my paddocks and figured out how much area I've used this year, how much more pasture I can get if DH will clear out this patch of trees and that patch which of course means I can have more cows ect. ect. Did I mention I had alot of fun?


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## agmantoo

Recently there has been a few questions dealing with cattle eating cherry tree leaves. Yesterday evening I turned the herd onto the main lane and let them lead the way to the far end to a different paddock. I had a little maintenance to attend to so I did not immediately follow. When I did go to give them access to the fresh paddock I saw they had a snack on the way. Wind had blown this cherry tree into the lane and they had eaten most of the leaves. Since the leaves had not gone into a wilt condition I felt all would be OK and it was. I checked on the herd today and they were fine. I know wilted leaves will kill and I was lucky the tree had not been down but for a short time. They must have liked the taste as they ate all the leaves they could reach.


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## PACrofter

agmantoo said:


> cedarvalley
> 
> I have 106 breeding age cows, one old bull, one yearling bull and one bull that weighs roughly 800 lbs that I bought recently. I have 141 verified acres in pasture. I calve year round and I market usually 4 times per year. With the drought this year I shortened the time period with one load by selling some calves light as I anticipated the price dropping. By June I had marketed 48 feeder calves and 2 cull cows. Currently I have more than 30 calves of various sizes and will market another load in the Fall and will carry some over into 2013 as I have a number or cows showing pregnancy. It get a little hard to keep up as all animals are in one herd. I will also take a few more aged cows out this fall and drop back to 100 mature cows. I feel that I could go up with the head count except for the Summer months. I did the number crunch with buying feed for the time periods that I could not comfortably depend on pasture feeding and concluded that the effort was not justifiable. I am considering putting a hay storage building up to store hay. for emergency use. At this time I only have 16 days worth of hay on hand. I have had these bales for 3 plus years and hope to never have to use them. Without severe drought I can run a cow and her calf on 1.4 acres without hay.


Agman - 

Two quick questions....I believe elsewhere in this thread you have indicated that your business model is to produce stocker calves, and not to go for the finished beef / direct-to-consumer model. Given that you can run a cow-calf pair on 1.4 acres without a drought, do you have a sense for how much land your model would require to raise grass-fed beeves to 18 - 24 months of age, if you were selling into the direct-to-consumer market?

Also, you mention that you've got 16 days of hay in reserve for emergencies. How many bales of hay does that represent?

Many thanks for your patience and willingness to share!


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## agmantoo

*Given that you can run a cow-calf pair on 1.4 acres without a drought, do you have a sense for how much land your model would require to raise grass-fed beeves to 18 - 24 months of age, if you were selling into the direct-to-consumer market? 
Also, you mention that you've got 16 days of hay in reserve for emergencies. How many bales of hay does that represent?
*

With the same size herd that I now have (typically 100 productive cows) if I were to go to marketing grass fed beef at 22 months of age I believe I would need not less that 275 acres here in NC. Conservatively I would be expecting to market 88 calves taking losses and culled calves out.

Note....It is the feed requirement for the market beeves the second year that drives the land need for the additional acres. I would figure what I would net from the beeves and compare that to increasing the number of feeder calves that I need to increase to reach the income I wanted to generate. Done right there is more net profit in feeder calves than most people recognize. The feeder calves will leave your place after around 7 months whereas the for beef animals will be hanging around close to 2 years.


My 16 days of hay equates to 3 bales at 800 lbs plus being fed daily and nearly none waste.


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## PACrofter

Thank you, Agman!


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## thestartupman

I have been trying to search this thread for the best lane width to have, and I am not doing to well. I am hoping someone can help me out. My property is only 80 acres, with 40 acres being pastures. So I will only be running 20 cow calf pairs max I am guessing. I would think the size of property and the amount of animals using the lanes would be something to consider when deciding lane widths. Maybe I am wrong. There is an overview of my property on this thread a while back if you need to see it for reference. Any help would be much appreciated.


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## agmantoo

The minimum width would be the width that I could conveniently turn my tractor and implement around. Other than that I would consider making the main lane large enough that I could graze it as a paddock. I am for always using all the land I have available. When I did my layout for lanes or paddocks, I tried to take the spreading width of a spreader truck into consideration for when putting lime out. This was done to keep the applicators efficiency up also.


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## ycanchu2

thestartupman said:


> I have been trying to search this thread for the best lane width to have, and I am not doing to well. I am hoping someone can help me out. My property is only 80 acres, with 40 acres being pastures. So I will only be running 20 cow calf pairs max I am guessing. I would think the size of property and the amount of animals using the lanes would be something to consider when deciding lane widths. Maybe I am wrong. There is an overview of my property on this thread a while back if you need to see it for reference. Any help would be much appreciated.


I like about 30 feet....you could get by with 20 but you would need a cul-de-sac or something wider in the middle or at the end to turn around a vehicle or tractor.
If your lane is along the edge of the woods you may want to go out to about 60 feet wide.


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## thestartupman

Thanks for the advice Agmantoo, and ycanchu2. I will be going out between rain storms and doing some measuring. I might need some feed back from some of you on the overview of the property layout before I finally start the work. I will post the new layout if needed.


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## ycanchu2

Agmantoo,
How would you recommend I go about filling in some places in my pasture.
This being my first year at IRG I still have some pasture improvement to do. I have spots in my pastures where they have been overgrazed for years and they are just spots of short grass(crabgrass mostly) that doesn't get very big. The cattle tend to want to go to those spots and graze before they have to graze the bigger fescue.
Should I disk then overseed and drag or would just overseeding and dragging be sufficient?
Would now be the time or wait until late winter or early spring?
Or would the fescue fill in the empty spots eventually in a year or two on its own?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2
Now is the ideal time to fill in the bare spots IMO. I will be doing the same thing as soon as my seed arrive. The bare spots are probably rather hard ground at this time. If you can 'scratch" the ground a bit it would help. Getting the seeds shallow planted, just covered, should be fine and they should germinate and sprout rapidly and get enough root established to make it through Winter in zone 7. If you have access to any litter a scattering over the bare areas would be great. The existing fescue would fill in over time but I get impatient and prefer using the seed as an aid. If you will get enough Marshall ryegrass to plant at 10 lbs/acre to blend with the fescue at 20 lbs/acre I believe you will be impressed with the results. Any leftover ryegrass can be broadcast over existing fescue. These two grasses compliment each other and provide a lot of Winter grazing.


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## thestartupman

How do you go about using small ponds in MIG? I know you can pump water to a tank, but does any one give the cattle access to the ponds directly? If so, how do you use lanes with the pond? Any pictures would be great. Should HT hot wire be kept away from the pond? Again, pictures would probably help the most. Thanks again


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## ycanchu2

thestartupman said:


> How do you go about using small ponds in MIG? I know you can pump water to a tank, but does any one give the cattle access to the ponds directly? If so, how do you use lanes with the pond? Any pictures would be great. Should HT hot wire be kept away from the pond? Again, pictures would probably help the most. Thanks again


I don;t have pictures but I wil ltry to explain others on here may do better. Yes I use a couple of ponds directly, because I simply have no other choice. A springfed pond is best when it comes to ponds.
However, simply incorporate the pond into the lane. Think of your lane as everchanging trail that maybe 30 ft. wide in most places to 300 ft or so wide in some places encompassing ponds and shade areas.
Suppose you have a 10 acre field with a pond halfway next to the perimeter fence, you would probably want your lane roughly down the middle then teeing off going to the pond.


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## thestartupman

You don't ever run some kind of fence across a narrow edge of the pond to only allow the cattle to just drink from it? I was picturing a lane maybe 30-40 feet wide, and the fence crossing a corner of the pond on one side. I just didn't know if it would be wise to have hot wire going across the pond?


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## SCRancher

As long as the wire stays above the water there is no problem with a hot wire above water. At most if the wire touches the water it causes a drain on the fence.

I have Beavers in the creek that is a long property line (1/2 a mile straight more than that with the winding nature of the creek). 

I cut holes in their dams and then tap into my fence using poly wire to create a barricade around the cuts otherwise the beavers just fix the holes every night.

The beavers would try to drag stuff into the holes at first but they would end up getting shocked and eventually gave up and simply started building dams in other locations - it was an ongoing multi-year fight with the beavers until the South Carolina Dept of Transportation got concerned about a bridge and had the SC Wildlife Service come trap the beavers out of the creek on my property.

So anyway my point is I am constantly running hot wires over running water that occasionally gets knocked into the water - no big deal.


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## Maka

On the Pond question. I am working on getting a pond setup on my property. I had thought I would fence the pond off from the cattle and run a pump to a trough. One reason is to keep the pond cleaner as I want to stock it with some catfish. However I watch my uncles cattle go in and out of a pond on hot days to cool off and they sure seem to enjoy it. I would appreciate some input on the plus and minus points of letting the cattle have direct contact with the pond versus pumping water to a trough. 

One point in my case that might make a difference is I am planning on it being around 16 feet deep at the center.


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## Gabriel

I would fence them out. They should not need to stand in the water, if you have provided adequate shade. Make sure you pull from the top of the pond, not the bottom.


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## ycanchu2

thestartupman said:


> You don't ever run some kind of fence across a narrow edge of the pond to only allow the cattle to just drink from it? I was picturing a lane maybe 30-40 feet wide, and the fence crossing a corner of the pond on one side. I just didn't know if it would be wise to have hot wire going across the pond?


i'm sure you can do that, if it works for you. It won't hurt anything having a wire over the water.


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## thestartupman

Why do you need to make sure you pull the water from the top and not the bottom if you are pumping it out.


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## Maka

Gabriel said:


> I would fence them out. They should not need to stand in the water, if you have provided adequate shade. Make sure you pull from the top of the pond, not the bottom.


They have plenty of shade, in fact I have more woods than pasture. When I say pump, I actually had the ide of running a 2" pipe with a shut off valve through the bank close to the bottom and placing a water trough on the low side of the pond. Gravity feed, no actual pump required. Anyone do this and have suggestions? 

Do I some kind of grill cage over the end in the pond to keep it from getting clogged with leaves? Also, we do some freezing weather here, gets down to about zero deg. at the coldest. Can I put some sort of accesible shut off valve in the pond end to keep the water in the pipe from freezing?

I am also curious as to Startupmans question regarding why at the top?


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## ycanchu2

Maka said:


> They have plenty of shade, in fact I have more woods than pasture. When I say pump, I actually had the ide of running a 2" pipe with a shut off valve through the bank close to the bottom and placing a water trough on the low side of the pond. Gravity feed, no actual pump required. Anyone do this and have suggestions?
> 
> Do I some kind of grill cage over the end in the pond to keep it from getting clogged with leaves? Also, we do some freezing weather here, gets down to about zero deg. at the coldest. Can I put some sort of accesible shut off valve in the pond end to keep the water in the pipe from freezing?
> 
> I am also curious as to Startupmans question regarding why at the top?


We did exactly that in 2007 or 08 when it was real dry here, pond dried up so we had it cleaned out. Went about halfway down in the pond....its completely dry now........and run a line thru the bank to a tank down below. In the pond we did a 90 degree turn upward with a 2 inch pipe and drilled holes in it from bottom to top. We cut the top out of a plastic barrel, run the pipe up thru it, put a few big rocks in the bottom of the barrel and drove about 3 steel posts around the barrel and wired the barrel to the posts. Don't know how easy that would be to do with water in the pond.


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## Gabriel

Because the water at the top will have more oxygen in it. If, for whatever reason, you must draw from the bottom, find a way to spray/stir it so that it picks up more oxygen. Most bad bacteria is anaerobic, meaning oxygen will kill it. That's why you'll sometimes see windmills turning a blade in a pond, it's not just good for the fish!


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## Maka

ycanchu2 said:


> We did exactly that in 2007 or 08 when it was real dry here, pond dried up so we had it cleaned out. Went about halfway down in the pond....its completely dry now........and run a line thru the bank to a tank down below. In the pond we did a 90 degree turn upward with a 2 inch pipe and drilled holes in it from bottom to top. We cut the top out of a plastic barrel, run the pipe up thru it, put a few big rocks in the bottom of the barrel and drove about 3 steel posts around the barrel and wired the barrel to the posts. Don't know how easy that would be to do with water in the pond.


The pipe going up with holes makes a lot of sense. I am not sure I understand the plastic barrel though? Is it upside down over the vertical pipe (with the drilled holes) to keep junk in the water away from it?

Thanks. This is very helpful.


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## ycanchu2

Maka said:


> The pipe going up with holes makes a lot of sense. I am not sure I understand the plastic barrel though? Is it upside down over the vertical pipe (with the drilled holes) to keep junk in the water away from it?
> 
> Thanks. This is very helpful.


You wouldn't necessarily have to have a barrel, it sort of helps to hold everything in place. Anyway, no you don't put the barrel upside down, just drill a hole in the bottom for your pipe to go thru then cut the top out of it. Fill it full of big rocks, that sort of acts as a filter and helps keep everything sitting on the bottom.
Thats just the way we did it...right or wrong....if your pond is real deep and you want to pull from the top like Gabriel said you would need to rig up something that floated near the top.


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## CesumPec

ycanchu2 said:


> You wouldn't necessarily have to have a barrel, it sort of helps to hold everything in place. Anyway, no you don't put the barrel upside down, just drill a hole in the bottom for your pipe to go thru then cut the top out of it. Fill it full of big rocks, that sort of acts as a filter and helps keep everything sitting on the bottom.
> Thats just the way we did it...right or wrong....if your pond is real deep and you want to pull from the top like Gabriel said you would need to rig up something that floated near the top.


we use a small pond for irrigating five acres. a swamp drains into it so it is almost constantly refreshed. To draw water, we have a float made of Styrofoam and it holds an intake pipe in the center of the pond, about a foot below the surface. The intake line is connected to the pump by a piece of flex rubber hose. It has operated for a couple of decades with only occasional maintenance to unclog weeds that grew on the metal mesh basket that protects the intake.


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## Maka

I don't have the pond built yet. I am waiting for my highlift guy to have some time. So this is the time for me to plan anything I want going through the bank. I expet it to be prettyh deep at 16-18ft in the centerCesumpek, how do you keep the styrofoam in the center of the pond. It seems it woukd float to the sides. I like this idea however as it keeps the end of the hose/pipe close to the surface as he level goes up or down. 

Do you have a shut off valve or since you use a pump or do you leave the line full of water? I did not notice your location before I started my response. I am worried about the line freezing. I was mainly worried about between the spot if comes out of the bank and the shut off valve. We never get a foot of ice (rarely freezes enough to walk on ice around here) so is a foot below the surface safe from freezing the line inside the pond? Will the bank keep the line from freezing the line inside the pond bank? If I run it a little (turn line to a trickle) when we get below 30 degrees I would probably be okay but I always hate to set something up that requires such supervision. 

Thanks for your suggestions. I feel I am very close to having a good plan but have these questions.


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## CesumPec

the float is anchored to two opposite sides of the pond to keep it from drifting too far in either direction. the pipe stays full of water and slightly below the pond surface. Since this is in Daytona, there is no need to worry about freezing. Our major winter concerns are belligerent drunk bikers and NASCAR fans. In IL, you would most likely have to make an adjustment like raising the pipe out of the water to drain the line during winter or keeping the pipe sufficiently below the surface. not sure how hard of freezes you get.

the intake line is PVC from the float to the pond edge. at pond edge there is a short piece of 2 inch diameter rubber hose connecting the intake line to the pump side PVC which goes underground within a few feet of the pond. this allows the PVC pipe to rise and fall at the intake end. in winter, that rubber hose could be disconnected from the intake pipe to allow the PVC so sit in the water below the freeze zone. Tie a rope to it so you can easily fish it out in spring. But if you want to pump in winter, you'll have to ask someone who knows more about the cold than i do.


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## thestartupman

Ok, I think I am about done with the planning, and I am ready to start the doing. I will try to attach the over view again of the property. The shaded blue areas are the ponds that have held water during this drought. The green line along the lanes will be the full time hot line. The red lines will be single wire HT lines that will only be hot when jumped across. There will be a couple extra waterers added near the house and barns at a later time. The lanes are ending in what looks like the middle of no where right now, but the one near the barns will be ending in the barnyard. The other will be ending in a feild that will be decided the fianl decision later. It has a orchard that is started in one part of it. My plan will be too start the fencing south of the building, get my cattle, and keep working on the rest of the fencing as I have started the rotational grazing. There is a lot of growth in these fields right now. I think I can graze them through now, and still have enough grass growth to run them again during winter. I do have one question for now. What is the narrowest that you would section off for a paddock? I guess the big question is what do you think about the over all plan? Thanks again for any help you can give.


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## thestartupman




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## thestartupman

Sorry, I didn't get the pic on the first time. By the way, this is 80 acres, with about 40 grass.


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## thestartupman

Opps one more question. I have two large oak trees that are in perfect alignment with were I want to put the HT fence. Would there be any thing wrong with hanging the HT wire from these trees?


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## agmantoo

If it is a must to use the trees then first use a treated plank and fasten it vertically to the tree with a minimum number of nails. Then affix the HT wire to the plank. This way as the tree grows it will push against the plank and not embed the fence fasteners into the tree.


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## agmantoo

thestartupman said:


>


I do not like the West East ~30 degree lane going diagonally through the long rectangular section in the center left portion of the pic. That area will IMO be very awkward to mow and to spread lime, etc. My preference would be to take the hot green wire as it comes into the area on the North and to go West around the perimeter. I would then run a green wire West/East on the North side of the row of trees in the center. As I have stated I like to be efficient with all movement of animals and equipment. There could be a time when you want to make hay in this area also.


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## thestartupman

Agmantoo, if there is any way you could get me some kind of sketch of what you are talking about, it would help me a lot. I am not quite following your directions.


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## agmantoo

I will attempt to get the sketch but I cannot do it now.


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## agmantoo

I could not take out your existing lines crossing the field. The wide red and green are what I am suggesting


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## thestartupman

I understand you know. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## thestartupman

Opps I meant i understand you now.


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## ycanchu2

thestartupman said:


> Opps one more question. I have two large oak trees that are in perfect alignment with were I want to put the HT fence. Would there be any thing wrong with hanging the HT wire from these trees?


if use trees in your HT line there is always that chance of lightening hitting the tree and jumping to your fence and knocking out your fence charger.


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## thestartupman

I am not real big on putting any kind of fencing on trees. These trees are just in perfect alignment with where I want my fencing.


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## thestartupman

Ok, here is another idea I want to throw out for your opinion. It helps open up the weird corner in the field near the pond, but keeps my padock lines going so I don't have to walk through the tree lines to hook them up. Let me know your thoughts if you would.


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## agmantoo

If you want to stay out of the woods you could do something like this. Me I would have gone through the woods as the cattle will have cleared the undergrowth. As a seasoned farmer I remain adamant about leaving the fields unencumbered.

In your last layout how were your going to get the cattle to water?


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## thestartupman

My thought was to use step ins and poly wire to make temporary lanes as needed on the east side, for the east fields, and on the west side for the southern fields. It would also allow me to use the field were the two lanes meet as a paddock occasionally. Again thanks for all the feedback and ideas.


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## Awnry Abe

For those that buy chicken litter...

1) How did you go about procuring it? Did you start calling on poultry farms or did you find a litter hauler? I found a hauler (more like a recycler) that is asking $65/ton delivered, not spread. Gulp.

2) Is the product that you purchased much like what you would expect that has been scooped from the chicken houses? Raw--full of clumps, feathers, birds, bedding, etc. Or was it processed in any fashion to make it easier on a spreader?

3) Is there a time of year that would be advantageous to spread it? Or a time to avoid? I am particularly interested in spreading it on fescue dominate pastures.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo or anyone that has any thoughts... which bull in the Pharo cattle book do you like the best for my heifers? I will be A/Iing them as soon as all my cattle handling equipment gets here from the factory in TX which should be mid next week. Also where can a person get a semen tank filled with liquid nitrogen? I dont want to use ABS or Select sires because I dont plan to purchase their semen. I plan to take all my grown steers to the sale next Tuesday as well as 1 heifer that need to cull already.


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## ramiller5675

randyandmegs - After taking a quick look, I like the Black Angus bull Rebel. It says he is becoming one of the most popular bulls they offer (everybody else likes him for a reason), and his numbers and ratings look pretty good.

Besides that, that's all I can offer.


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## MarkM

Zone 7, SE OK. Good recent rain.

This paddock has rested 55 days. I rotate daily. Should I graze this again or leave it as is for stockpile?


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## agmantoo

MarkM

Always graze to tallest forage you have. Using that guideline will get you the most mileage from your grass and conserve or minimize hay consumption.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs 

Not ignoring your request but I will not be making a recommendation. Somewhere there is an adage that if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing.


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## MarkM

Thanks agman, I had moved them into that paddock today. It is the tallest, and best, forage I have. Just needed some confirmation.



agmantoo said:


> MarkM
> 
> Always graze to tallest forage you have. Using that guideline will get you the most mileage from your grass and conserve or minimize hay consumption.


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## CesumPec

randyandmegs - I don't know anything first hand, so I would not make a recommendation. But angus reportedly does not do as well as grass fed as does Devon and a few other breeds I can't remember now. Florida cracker cow is recommended for the soil and grass we have in central and south Florida. So you might need to check with someone local who operates in the same manner as you.


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> Not ignoring your request but I will not be making a recommendation. Somewhere there is an adage that if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing.


I thought I had read in the past you were a fan of Pharo??? Or is it AI in general? Im not following your thought process on this one. Not like you to hold your tounge even on a negative thought.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo - Stockpiling Forage Question: In a recent post you stated that you always graze the tallest forage first. Can you describe how that works with stockpiling? I'm having a hard time figuring out how to stockpile yet graze the tallest forage first. I see two alternatives: 1) you don't graze an area at all and simply let it grow (breaking the graze tallest forage first) 2) with the increase in forage production the forage get's ahead of you?? I can't seem to stockpile with option #2 so I'm assuming your using Option #1. BUT if you have a different methodology to stockpiling please elaborate! Thanks!


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

I am constantly grazing as you realize. I have grass that was grazed yesterday, last week and last month. etc. As the herd needs forage I grazed the oldest and most likely the tallest grass grass in the pastures. As the fescue breaks dormancy it will start growing vigorously if moisture is present. This rate of growth will allow a reduction of the amount of area allocated. I find that new grow is more rapid and IMO generates more forage than forage that has reached near or is at maturing. Feeding the tallest/oldest forage will then leave the areas with greatest growth producing at a higher rate of recovering thus contributing more forage for Winter. On the warm days of Fall and early Winter we will also see the grazed tall grass areas producing some growth. Come February we can return and get some grazing there. If I had too much mature grass in the Fall I would let common reasoning prevail and set aside the area for emergency Winter feed. I seldom if ever have this luxury. I never waste feed since I cannot predict future needs. At this time I have a lot of young calves and my mature cow to forage acre is 1 cow per 1.3 acres that need ground water.


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## randyandmegs

Agman,

I have a 17 acre pasture that I had originally planned on grazing mid to late summer and ends up I just have completed the lane and planning to graze it through the winter. I clipped it in early seed stage and I posted pictures a few months back. I had a fair amount of Johnson Grass and Stickweed growning and I clippied it pretty high again about 3-4 weeks ago. My question is... Should I have clipped it lower this time of year to stimulate growth better in order to build a stock pile for the winter or will the taller grass still grow enough to produce good forage for them this winter?

As always thanks for your help.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

I would continue to knock any developing seed head off but I would not drop down into the fescue and clip any leaves of the fescue to accomplish the task. If the weather reverts to near normal you should be able to smother or choke the weeds into control next season. If you plan on eradicating the Johnson grass you will IMO need to get a weed wiper. I am uncertain of what you are referring to as stickweed. I hear various weeds here, such as ragweed and beggar lice, being called stickweed. Will you cattle eat your stickweed when the growth is new/tender?


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> I would continue to knock any developing seed head off but I would not drop down into the fescue and clip any leaves of the fescue to accomplish the task. If the weather reverts to near normal you should be able to smother or choke the weeds into control next season. If you plan on eradicating the Johnson grass you will IMO need to get a weed wiper. I am uncertain of what you are referring to as stickweed. I hear various weeds here, such as ragweed and beggar lice, being called stickweed. Will you cattle eat your stickweed when the growth is new/tender?


Nothing will eat Stickweed aka Yellow Crownbeard in any stage, not even goats. I have 3 test areas going from pulling it up, to spraying with 2-4-d, and mowing. Link below shows it. 

Verbesina (wingstem, crownbeard, froststem)

I know not to clip this late down into the fescue as there is not time to get good regrowth my main question was to see if I should have cut it lower in mid august to stimulate growth. Seems most of what I have left is the same older growth from the clipping in early summer and wondering if it will grow out any more before frost.


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## trbizwiz

Crown ranch....find a litter hauler that is a spreader. I did not know anyone hauled it and did not spread it. It would be highly difficult to spread with out the proper equipement. Expect haulers to promise to deliver litter for weeks before they actually do. They tend to be an unpredictable lot. I assume they tend to their primary accounts first adn fill in gaps with us little guys. 
the spread litter will mostly look like feathers and sawdust. It will have a strong odor fro atleast a week. When I saw strong, I mean county wide strong. It woudl be best to spread it the day before a rain. that will knock the dust and odor down a bit. This stuff will leave dust every where. If it is near your house, you will need to wash everything after it is done. 
the litter trucks are heavy. Soft ground and heavy trucks dont mix. take that in to consideration. 
There shold be not birds in the litter. There may be some parts, but doubtful. The poultry houses are good about picking up and disposing of those because of regulations. 
Aas to finding one, check the local paper, check craigslist, and ask around. If that fails drive around with your windows down adn when you smell some very strong odor, it is a little sweet, and a lot foul, stop and ask them who did it. I paid $30 per ton spread here in SW Mo two springs ago. But there is a poultry house on every other section around here. 
figure a ton per acre as an application rate unless you have a soil test that tells you other wise. Soil tests are always best, but so few want to take the time.


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> Nothing will eat Stickweed aka Yellow Crownbeard in any stage, not even goats. I have 3 test areas going from pulling it up, to spraying with 2-4-d, and mowing. Link below shows it.
> 
> Verbesina (wingstem, crownbeard, froststem)
> 
> I know not to clip this late down into the fescue as there is not time to get good regrowth my main question was to see if I should have cut it lower in mid august to stimulate growth. Seems most of what I have left is the same older growth from the clipping in early summer and wondering if it will grow out any more before frost.


IMO you can't go wrong mowing, unless you mow too short. I don't know how high/low you are talking about when you mention cutting lower in August.
IMO if you are a month or more out from grazing your tall fescue, clipping the tops of your fescue, will only stimulate more growth, provided you have moisture. You must leave plenty of leaf area for photosynthesis. If your in doubt do you a test strip or two and see.


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## Gabriel

Mowing only rarely passes the marginal reaction test, for me. In other words, when I consider the $ cost (fuel, tractor maintenance) and my time, it's not worth it. Growth will never exceed the mature size of the plant, so as long as it's not so old it died, mowing gets me what I've already got. That's a best case scenario - worst case is that it doesn't regrow in time before the cows graze it and now they'll be even slower to regrow. Forage consistency is every bit as important as forage quality, because the microbes in the cows gut adapt to what they're fed. So if you mow in order to give younger, more palatable grass, you lock yourself into doing that all the time.


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## HDRider

Gabriel said:


> Mowing only rarely passes the marginal reaction test, for me. In other words, when I consider the $ cost (fuel, tractor maintenance) and my time, it's not worth it. Growth will never exceed the mature size of the plant, so as long as it's not so old it died, mowing gets me what I've already got. That's a best case scenario - worst case is that it doesn't regrow in time before the cows graze it and now they'll be even slower to regrow. Forage consistency is every bit as important as forage quality, because the microbes in the cows gut adapt to what they're fed. So if you mow in order to give younger, more palatable grass, you lock yourself into doing that all the time.


Don't most of us have those four legged mowers, mostly black or red, some white or brown, some even have horns??

I hear they make gas, but never heard of one that needs gas.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Mowing only rarely passes the marginal reaction test, for me. In other words, when I consider the $ cost (fuel, tractor maintenance) and my time, it's not worth it. Growth will never exceed the mature size of the plant, so as long as it's not so old it died, mowing gets me what I've already got. That's a best case scenario - worst case is that it doesn't regrow in time before the cows graze it and now they'll be even slower to regrow. Forage consistency is every bit as important as forage quality, because the microbes in the cows gut adapt to what they're fed. So if you mow in order to give younger, more palatable grass, you lock yourself into doing that all the time.


Younger more palatable grass is only a pleasant byproduct of mowing. I also call it mechanical grazing.
What I am talkng about here is when you have an abundance of grass. Research has shown mature grass goes downhill just as overgrazed grass does. What we want to do is to maximize the grass's root system.....stimulate it and make as vigorous and as huge as possible. mowing or grazing too low or in other words too close to the crown causes the plant to exhaust its root reserves to regrow.
Although I haven't been doing IRG all that long. I have stockpiled fescue for years. 
i remember a few years back that I had a decent field of fescue stockpiling about this time of year. This was back when I grew tobacco. For those who don't know, you top or cut the bloom out of the top of the plant in order for the leaves to spread. So I decided to try that same concept on the grass, so I bushhogged just the top few inches out of it and it was just like you gave it a shot of steroids, it just kept thickening up and growing taller, I couldn't believe it.
I just didn't have the sense to not graze it too short, and so when we do that its just like starting all over again.
For me it is economical I have a batwing so I can mow for between 1/2 gal, and 1 gal. per acre.


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## SCRancher

If I had a 15 foot bat wing I would probably mow more than the once or twice a year that I do now. I typically mow just before spring to knock down all the tall dead weeds. It simply takes too long - primary reason - and IMO uses too much fuel. I also can't seem to get my bush hot to mow above 4 inches with the way it's setup. If I bought a used 15 foot batwing the first thing I would do is to have it modified to cut minimum of 6 inches high. I just can't justify the price of a batwing at this time.


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## ycanchu2

I hear what you are saying........a 10' pull behind would probably be economical too. Anything less than that and you feel like you were in the tractor seat all year long.


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> I hear what you are saying........a 10' pull behind would probably be economical too. Anything less than that and you feel like you were in the tractor seat all year long.


Try a 5' bush hog and you'll know why it doesn't pass my test.  If I had the money to buy the larger equipment, I wouldn't, I'd buy cattle during the times of the year that I needed them. I don't like things that rust, rot and depreciate. I spot mowed once this year, had some brambles and saplings that had to go. By not giving myself the option of mowing all the time I'm forced to get better at managing the animal impact. 

Book recommendation: Holistic Management... I've just started it, but it's good enough already that I'd recommend it for anyone with land to manage.


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## randyandmegs

We have a 10' Woods bush hog that makes pretty quick work of it. The field I'm talking about is our normal hay field. We have 180 round bales on hand so no need to bale for a quite a while. I hoped to graze that field but my water line installers put me way behind and I just finished the project of getting the lane done. I want to graze that this winter without using hay and I was trying to get the most and best forage I could. I also had to cut down the Johnson grass and stick weed before they went to seed. What got me to thinking about this is because on my grandpa's side he bush hogged 2 weeks before me and is getting some great regrowth but he also has his herd grazing through there every 8 days.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Try a 5' bush hog and you'll know why it doesn't pass my test.  If I had the money to buy the larger equipment, I wouldn't, I'd buy cattle during the times of the year that I needed them. I don't like things that rust, rot and depreciate. I spot mowed once this year, had some brambles and saplings that had to go. By not giving myself the option of mowing all the time I'm forced to get better at managing the animal impact.
> 
> Book recommendation: Holistic Management... I've just started it, but it's good enough already that I'd recommend it for anyone with land to manage.


Yea a 5' bushhog would be extremely slow over several acres.
I certainly agree with you that the less dependant on equipment the better off you are. However, if you already have it you might as well use it to your advantage.


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## agmantoo

When I first started rotational grazing my herd headcount was around 30. As time passed the herd grew as my ability to feed more cattle increased. I moved up to around 50+ head and I thought I was reaching my capacity and slowly went to roughly 75+ cattle. Then gradually as I gained experience I finally got to ~100 brood cows. All this occurred on the same acreage! How did I get this to happen. I learned to maximize the production of forage on these limited acres. Initially I was feeding hay 3 months a year. With rotational grazing I slowly was able to extend the grazing to year round with hay only in drought years. I keep the soil maintained by taking yearly soil samples and making soil improvements. I reseed as necessary and I now seed some Winter annuals. I have also learned when and how to maintain the grasses and clovers using mechanical means. My fuel expenses amount to a small percentage of what hay would be, either purchased or produced on my place. I have IMO nearly reached the carrying capacity of my place with my current practices. I am now considering adding a large shelter for purchased hay. My thinking now is that during the months when I have an abundance of forage that I can carry an additional 25 head of cattle. The hay would be the crutch for me to get through part of Winter and about 6 weeks of late Summer with the added head count. With a limited amount of hay along with my Summer grasses and then feeding limited hay and stockpiled fescue, I should be able to market an additional 22+ calves. My net from these calves would buy far more hay than I would be needing. This stored hay would reduce my current risks from drought or too little stockpiled feed to meet my needs. I appreciate any thoughts that come to mind on this approach.


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## ramiller5675

What kind of numbers are you looking for on your soil tests (I have a rough idea of what I want in cropland, but I'm wondering if I would want the same in a pasture)? 

How would you feed your hay? I can see feeding hay in a pasture to build up the fertility, but if you have reached an upper limit on forage production is there a risk of lowering the amount of forage grown if you feed your hay out in the pasture, etc. (I hope that makes sense)?


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> When I first started rotational grazing my herd headcount was around 30. As time passed the herd grew as my ability to feed more cattle increased. I moved up to around 50+ head and I thought I was reaching my capacity and slowly went to roughly 75+ cattle. Then gradually as I gained experience I finally got to ~100 brood cows. All this occurred on the same acreage! How did I get this to happen. I learned to maximize the production of forage on these limited acres. Initially I was feeding hay 3 months a year. With rotational grazing I slowly was able to extend the grazing to year round with hay only in drought years. I keep the soil maintained by taking yearly soil samples and making soil improvements. I reseed as necessary and I now seed some Winter annuals. I have also learned when and how to maintain the grasses and clovers using mechanical means. My fuel expenses amount to a small percentage of what hay would be, either purchased or produced on my place. I have IMO nearly reached the carrying capacity of my place with my current practices. I am now considering adding a large shelter for purchased hay. My thinking now is that during the months when I have an abundance of forage that I can carry an additional 25 head of cattle. The hay would be the crutch for me to get through part of Winter and about 6 weeks of late Summer with the added head count. With a limited amount of hay along with my Summer grasses and then feeding limited hay and stockpiled fescue, I should be able to market an additional 22+ calves. My net from these calves would buy far more hay than I would be needing. This stored hay would reduce my current risks from drought or too little stockpiled feed to meet my needs. I appreciate any thoughts that come to mind on this approach.


Going from 30 hd to 100 hd is quite an accomplishment. One of the things I noticed early on this year is that I seemed to be understocked, especially during times of adequate rainfall. never before in the past doing continuous grazing did I seem understocked, most of the times I felt maxed out and that is running 1 cow to about 2.5-2.7ac. 
I know of farmers who have sold half their cows in order to not have to buy the high priced fertilize.but its like talking a foreign language with someone who doesn't do IRG.
Chip Hines said regarding increasing our cattle numbers, how many cows can we add to our operation? we really don't know. A lot of this is uncharted territory.


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## OverYonder

Without a doubt the most informative thread I've ever read in a forum. 

Thank you all for the input and the education. Invaluable!


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## BMCC

Absolutely, without a doubt the most informative !


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## BMCC

Pasture photo test







[/IMG]


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## Gabriel

Welcome, both of you!


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## BMCC

Thanks, using some of agmantoo's suggestions on this forum allowed me to survive the winter after the worst drought in recorded history with 1/3 the hay usage of normal.


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## BMCC

[/IMG]


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## powerdam1953

I would also like to add my thank you for such an informative thread. I have been reading for about a week now on here, about half way through. I have no cows yet but plan on getting a couple next year. I have never had any so I want to learn as much as I can before I get them. Mine would be just for my family use, so making a profit isn't a goal. But the information that is on here seems like it would benefit any level of owning cattle.


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## Gabriel

BMCC, the longer the grass is, the faster it grows. (Up to a point.) I think you'd benefit from letting it get longer and moving them off sooner. I'm hoping I'm reading your picture right... they're about to move into the strip where the camera is, right?


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## CesumPec

powerdam1953 said:


> I would also like to add my thank you for such an informative thread. I have been reading for about a week now on here, about half way through. I have no cows yet but plan on getting a couple next year. I have never had any so I want to learn as much as I can before I get them. Mine would be just for my family use, so making a profit isn't a goal. But the information that is on here seems like it would benefit any level of owning cattle.


Well i disagree COMPLETELY! This thread is useless, has no good information, and is a total waste of time.gre:








OK, that was a huge lie, but I was afraid a group hug was going to break out if i didn't inject a little conflict.


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## MarkM

As the summer wore on it became obvious which of my animals were tolerant of my endophyte fescue and which ones were not.

I would have the same animals panting and drooling, heads hanging down and looking like they were going to die. It would not have surprised me to find one dead.

Finally, the weather broke. Cooler temps and rain. The dormant fescue took off. The animals appeared happy. For the past ten days they have been on paddocks that were probably 50% fescue, 30% bermuda and 20% "other" with little to no clover.

Last Thursday I went to move the animals (an unusual afternoon move). Temperature 74, humidity 60%. The entire herd was heat stressed. I had animals drooling that had done well all summer. Even many of the calves were struggling. I put off the move (it was going to be about 1/2 mile) until the next morning. I was SHOCKED at the condition of the animals. By later in the evening, everyone seemed normal again.

My biggest concern is what this portends for next summer. I had already decided that I would give everyone a second summer to see how they did before I culled. I had made a list of the poorest throughout the summer. If next summer looks like last Thursday, I would have to think of culling everyone.

Why the big decline so late in the season? I thought the endophyte was concentrated in the seeds and stems. The deterioration seemed to coincide with the latest growth spurt of the fescue.

Is there any chance that some of the poor ones will do better next year?

I will be frost seeding clover this winter in front of the herd, but I can't imagine it making that much of a difference.


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## burglar

Agmantoo, I have started reading this thread as it is an invaluable source of research for my rotational grazing property that I will be starting in January. I just read your comments about liking the Murray Greys, and as my property is in Australia, I wanted to see what you think today about the Murray Greys verses the Angus. I have 45 clear acres, with 3 good sized dams.

Much thanks for your advise.

I should add, your comments about the Murray greys where back in 2009, I am only up to page 23 of this thread, fascinating reading.


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## agmantoo

We have been fortunate to have a number of new people join the site recently. I have been slow to recognize these folks and I apologize. Let me say Welcome and thanks for the compliments. My excuse....I have been busy on my place and with my other responsibilities. Though the weather reporters did not include my place on all the drought maps I was hit hard by the lack of rain. Lately we have received some needed rain but I doubt that it was early enough to get sufficient forage growth stockpiled to get my herd through Winter.


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## agmantoo

MarkM

My cattle were purchased locally and were accustomed to fescue. I have witnessed some of the conditions you described from their eating endophyte infected fescue but not to the extent you stated. IMO you may need to mix in some other forages to offset the impact of the endophyte. More clovers and some rye grasses along with crab grass and anything else that flourishes in your area should suppress the problems.. Plenty of good fresh water and shade plus your culling should also aid in getting things under control. You may want to talk to some people in Missouri as they are have lots of experience with fescue.


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## agmantoo

burglar
I have been satisfied with the Murray Grey bull that I have. He was raised in California and now thrives in North Carolina. It did take him a while to adapt to the change of diet and weather. He withstood a much more significant transition and held his condition better than the Angus bulls I have had that were bought within a 300 mile radius. The only issue I have is that i get penalized at the sale barn as they cannot determine what breed the feeder calves being sold are. Even with the dockage for not being black his offspring have made money. I have almost no calving problems and the bull is docile and remains prolific. I do have two young bulls, both black Angus that I will phasing in. There are few places that I could source another MG but I do now have a number of heifers that I retained. I have no regrets regarding the purchase and use of the MG.


----------



## burglar

agmantoo said:


> burglar
> I have been satisfied with the Murray Grey bull that I have. He was raised in California and now thrives in North Carolina. It did take him a while to adapt to the change of diet and weather. He withstood a much more significant transition and held his condition better than the Angus bulls I have had that were bought within a 300 mile radius. The only issue I have is that i get penalized at the sale barn as they cannot determine what breed the feeder calves being sold are. Even with the dockage for not being black his offspring have made money. I have almost no calving problems and the bull is docile and remains prolific. I do have two young bulls, both black Angus that I will phasing in. There are few places that I could source another MG but I do now have a number of heifers that I retained. I have no regrets regarding the purchase and use of the MG.


Thanks Agmantoo, you're a true gentleman for offering so much advise to so many. I hope you get some rain in NC soon. I will do some more research at the sale yards on the pricing, but pleased to hear your positive comments.


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## SCRancher

Agman - sorry to hear about your drought issues - it's so weird I'm pretty close but have had good rainfall this year so I'm not sure I'm going to need the hay I bought early in the season. I know last year farmers just 20 miles north of my place were suffering through drought but again I was not.

Need vs use - my hay is stored outside so I will use my hay because it won't keep but I don't think I will NEED it.

That said it looks like this winter may be a colder one because it's already getting pretty chilly here so I could be wrong as I'm still counting on growth after my animals pass through the recent sections grazed.


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## ycanchu2

MarkM said:


> As the summer wore on it became obvious which of my animals were tolerant of my endophyte fescue and which ones were not.
> 
> I would have the same animals panting and drooling, heads hanging down and looking like they were going to die. It would not have surprised me to find one dead.
> 
> Finally, the weather broke. Cooler temps and rain. The dormant fescue took off. The animals appeared happy. For the past ten days they have been on paddocks that were probably 50% fescue, 30% bermuda and 20% "other" with little to no clover.
> 
> Last Thursday I went to move the animals (an unusual afternoon move). Temperature 74, humidity 60%. The entire herd was heat stressed. I had animals drooling that had done well all summer. Even many of the calves were struggling. I put off the move (it was going to be about 1/2 mile) until the next morning. I was SHOCKED at the condition of the animals. By later in the evening, everyone seemed normal again.
> 
> My biggest concern is what this portends for next summer. I had already decided that I would give everyone a second summer to see how they did before I culled. I had made a list of the poorest throughout the summer. If next summer looks like last Thursday, I would have to think of culling everyone.
> 
> Why the big decline so late in the season? I thought the endophyte was concentrated in the seeds and stems. The deterioration seemed to coincide with the latest growth spurt of the fescue.
> 
> Is there any chance that some of the poor ones will do better next year?
> 
> I will be frost seeding clover this winter in front of the herd, but I can't imagine it making that much of a difference.


IMO the rotational grazed fescue is more concentrated in all things good and bad along with other forages. where now they are getting a lot of long green blades per bite instead of the short stuff that comes with continuous grazing. Your cattle are probably healthy otherwise. I've not had the problems you mentioned as bad but I have had more cows limping this year than usual, but they are ok in a few days. Occasionally I see one drooling but not much. Some of that I attribute to too much clover. If I were you I would check out ....Persist Orchardgrass....I have been overseeding it in my fescue to delute it, it may not stockpile as good as fescue but the rest of the year it does well.


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## WJMartin

MarkM, I wouldn't discount the weather change either, those few days we had with such high humidity about did us in too and I don't have any fescue being grazed, yet, hoping for some rain this weekend to get it going.


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## Gabriel

Found an interesting ranching blog: BLOG.RANCHMANAGEMENT.COM


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## randyandmegs

As far as fescue and feet problems. My vet suggested we use a Fescue Binder type mineral to help with our older herd and feet problems. I think it is higher in Phos and Mag maybe 12% instead of 6% in the trace mineral.


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## Gabriel

randyandmegs said:


> As far as fescue and feet problems. My vet suggested we use a Fescue Binder type mineral to help with our older herd and feet problems. I think it is higher in Phos and Mag maybe 12% instead of 6% in the trace mineral.


I'm not a fan of premixed minerals. Have been using FCE minerals and have watched their consumption vary widely from paddock to paddock.


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## ramiller5675

Is the variance in the consumption consistent? In other words, do they consume a lot more of mineral A in paddock A, and every time they go back into paddock A do they follow the same pattern of consuming more mineral A?

If the consumption is varying widely paddock to paddock but isn't consistent then you might be better off to feed a premixed mineral. And, if they are having foot problems, I would want to feed a premixed mineral to make sure they're getting what they need to be getting.


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## Gabriel

ramiller5675 said:


> Is the variance in the consumption consistent? In other words, do they consume a lot more of mineral A in paddock A, and every time they go back into paddock A do they follow the same pattern of consuming more mineral A?


Don't know yet. Have only made one rotation (need more cattle!) so far.



ramiller5675 said:


> If the consumption is varying widely paddock to paddock but isn't consistent then you might be better off to feed a premixed mineral. And, if they are having foot problems, I would want to feed a premixed mineral to make sure they're getting what they need to be getting.


First, mine aren't having problems with their feet, so no worries. Second, I believe that God gave the cow everything they need to know to be a good cow. 

Remember how scientists killed lots of cattle when they administered too much iodine?


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## Gabriel

Been thinking about consumption rate of mineral. Seems to me that it could easily vary due to a number of factors, paddock quality, amount of recent rain, lactating or not... not at all convinced that it would or should stay the same in the same spot. Your thoughts?



Gabriel said:


> need more cattle!


They've arrived! :clap: And here we are going into winter...  At least I'll finally be able to increase the stocking density.


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## Gabriel

Here's a few of the new girls. I'm feeding hay on the worst paddocks in an attempt to both improve the soil there and get the new group accustomed to my management. I'll progressively tighten up the stock density.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
I am surprised to see the plants in that paddock so browned out this early in the season. Are all your paddocks in this stage? What is the latest PH reading?


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> Gabriel
> I am surprised to see the plants in that paddock so browned out this early in the season. Are all your paddocks in this stage? What is the latest PH reading?


I'll get a pic' of the pasture and it will make all of you happy that it's not yours. It's browned out already because it's 95% Broom Sedge. Not all of my paddocks are like this, this is the one that I wasn't able to get fenced until recently, so it never got grazed like the others. Even when I did get it fenced I couldn't get the stocking rate up until this last week. I got a bunch of cows in on a lease deal. I'm feeding hay out on it now because I wanted to stockpile more forage in the good paddocks, while giving this one more time to decompose before it gets cold. I have no idea about the pH, I can't afford to spread lime or anything else, so didn't feel like a test was justified. 

I'll try to get a pic of my better paddocks.


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## ramiller5675

A good soil test is only about $15-20, and is worth every penny.

I was able to rent a farm that I was told was "worn out", but I did some soil testing and found out it was extremely low in phosphorus. 

So, I broadcast some "expensive" 18-46-0 on the wheat field (except for one small check strip). After harvest, I had spent about $40 on soil tests, bought more fertilizer than I wanted to, and made about $5000 more than I would have without broadcasting that extra bit of fertilizer. 

Do some soil tests even if you don't think you have money to spend on lime or fertilizer. Then, if your soil test tells you you need something, do a small test strip to figure out if whether or not it will pay. Sometimes you can't afford to NOT spend money.


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## Gabriel

I agree, to some extent. I refuse to borrow money for any reason, however, and right now that's what I'd have to do. So it's not going to happen this season.

Anyone know the current NPK value of a 5x5 round bale?


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## agmantoo

Gabriel
The fertilizer value of hay that was fertilized is roughly $28 for a 4 x 5 bale. Fertilizer is not what you need the most. You need lime and it needs applied ASAP. Lime is cheaper by far. Once you get the PH corrected the broom will disappear. I am confident on what I am stating. It will take not less that 2 tons per acre to correct what you are experiencing with this paddock. Check around for the soil sampling. In some states they are free. Call your extension service and ask where to get a free evaluation of soil. You will probably have to gather the sample to get a free test. Lime is mined in your state and should be affordable.


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## SCRancher

Hmm I just mowed down about 5 acres of broom Saturday - I didn't know the PH was the problem - I have not done a soil sample in 2 years but the last one was showing a 6.3 and 6.5 PH on the two samples.

I guess I need to do a better soil sample.

What I have read is that there is nothing terribly wrong with broom, the cows still graze it but it does send up a lot of shoots and I mowed them down so more light would reach the clover and fescue that is still hanging on in that area.

The broom area is where I was planning on feeding out my hay this year - it's some of my least productive area so I was just happy something was growing there!


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## agmantoo

SCRancher
Was this broom sedge you have Broomsedge ( Andropogon virginicus )? If so, in my opinion it is a low ranking plant IMO to have for forage in a pasture. Cattle will eat it in the early growth stage but it is a very low nutritional forage plus it is considered to be a growth inhibitor to better forages. Once the broom sedge matures the cattle will refuse to eat it. Broom sedge does grow on poor ground and will provide ground cover but there is little or nothing I can say in its favor.


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## SCRancher

Yes that appears to be the same thing I have - I would rather have something else growing but it's better than nothing growing. I will do further research on it now that I have the scientific name and see what I can do affordable to get it replaced with something better.


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## ycanchu2

Sage grass is what it is often called too. An extension agent told me it could be low ph or also low phophorus too. I have quite abit on one place. Its ironically where it has been overgrazed the most in the past.


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## Gabriel

Agmantoo, I know that lime would help. However, it would cost me ~$5k to cover the property, and the property is not mine. Just this year I finally got away from the year to year lease and got a 3 year agreement, but still can't justify that cost. I've had some good success at replacing the b.sedge with better grasses with nothing more than proper management of the cattle. I can walk around the field full of b.sedge and everywhere a cow pat landed I see good grasses coming in. My biggest problem has been too few cattle! That's no longer the case.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Agmantoo, I know that lime would help. However, it would cost me ~$5k to cover the property, and the property is not mine. Just this year I finally got away from the year to year lease and got a 3 year agreement, but still can't justify that cost. I've had some good success at replacing the b.sedge with better grasses with nothing more than proper management of the cattle. I can walk around the field full of b.sedge and everywhere a cow pat landed I see good grasses coming in. My biggest problem has been too few cattle! That's no longer the case.


How many acres are you talking about? How much is the lime per ton? If you can't do 2ton do one ton/acre. If you can't do 1 ton do a 1000 lb/acre. Roger Martin is quoted in one of Allan Nation's books "Quality Pasture" says 200 to 500 lb per acre is as good as 2 ton according to the research.
Our local NRCS office has a lime spreader that will spread that low an amount that they rent for $50/day, but that requires the ability to load it and spread it.
We have a quarry in a neighboring county that sells lime for $2/ton its good quality too. I can get it dumped on the farm for another $6. So you might check around at the quarries in your area or neighboring counties.


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## randyandmegs

My earlier questions in August/September about trimming the fescue for stockpiling has been answered. It has came back strong, didnt grow out so much taller but it is very thick. After the canopy was cut back a lot of clover has also popped up. Here is about a 
270 degree panoramic view thanks to iphone5 with me standing in the lane.


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## CedarMoore

Last year I strip grazed my stockpiled fescue. I thought I had good results utililizing the grass because the cows had a new strip every day and whatever they could forage from the previous days grazing. Of course, they ate all the grass to the ground. In the spring it did seem like it took a little longer to come back which was no problem because I had plenty of grass elsewhere. The question I have is, am I hurting my grass stand letting the cattle eat the grass to ground in the winter? Thanks for any opinions.


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## CedarMoore

I encountered a problem moving from rotating pasture every week or two to daily moves. I now have a problem with Johnsongrass. Before the cows ate it to the ground and controlled it. Now, they may not be back to same ground in 2 or 3 months, the Johnsongrass is everywhere! It's not problem until this time of year when we are having light frost and the grass can be a danger to the cows. From my understanding after a killing frost, the danger is gone. I now have the cows where I see no Johnsongrass and I am feeding some hay. Has anyone else encountered this problem and what did you do? Thanks for any advise.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> I encountered a problem moving from rotating pasture every week or two to daily moves. I now have a problem with Johnsongrass. Before the cows ate it to the ground and controlled it. Now, they may not be back to same ground in 2 or 3 months, the Johnsongrass is everywhere! It's not problem until this time of year when we are having light frost and the grass can be a danger to the cows. From my understanding after a killing frost, the danger is gone. I now have the cows where I see no Johnsongrass and I am feeding some hay. Has anyone else encountered this problem and what did you do? Thanks for any advise.


I have some of the same situation. I read an article the other day that said you should wait 2 weeks after light scattered frosts untill you graze JG but it only needs 4 days after a killing or hard frost. We have only had a couple of light frosts here so far.
The grass may choke it out eventually then it may not, it may take getting one of those weed wipers with roundup to get it all


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Last year I strip grazed my stockpiled fescue. I thought I had good results utililizing the grass because the cows had a new strip every day and whatever they could forage from the previous days grazing. Of course, they ate all the grass to the ground. In the spring it did seem like it took a little longer to come back which was no problem because I had plenty of grass elsewhere. The question I have is, am I hurting my grass stand letting the cattle eat the grass to ground in the winter? Thanks for any opinions.


IMO yes you are hurting it, but according to the experts not as bad as in the summer.
I did the same thing you did last year on some stockpiled fescue, it seemed forever coming back in the spring. What happens i think is that the fescue will try to regrow during the warmer days of winter and when it does if the cattle have access to it they will just keep coming back and biting the new growth off therefore depleting the root reserves. Just don't allow any backgrazing and don't let them graze the paddock they are in down to the ground before moving them. you want to keep enough leaf area for photosythesis to occur.
This year I have my pasture fenced where I can move them off to new paddocks without them backgrazing.


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## randyandmegs

We had a lot of Johnsongrass in the field pictured above and I clipped it all in early seed stage and that took care of it. I'm sure it will be back next year but no worries at this point.


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## Allen W

ycanchu2 said:


> I have some of the same situation. I read an article the other day that said you should wait 2 weeks after light scattered frosts untill you graze JG but it only needs 4 days after a killing or hard frost. We have only had a couple of light frosts here so far.
> The grass may choke it out eventually then it may not, it may take getting one of those weed wipers with roundup to get it all


I wouldn't put cattle onto frosted or frozen johnson grass or any other sorghum until I was absolutely sure there wasn't any chance of it sending up new shoots.


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## Gabriel

This is what 665,000 Lbs per acre looks like. 










The calves have crossed the wire in the background. The space is 60' x 60'.


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## ramiller5675

Is there enough to feed that many cattle on a paddock that size?

The way I see it, you have about 55,000 lbs. of cattle, and they would need about 2-3% of their body weight in forage to feed them each day which figures out to about 1100-1600 lbs of grass. 3600 sq.ft. is about 1/12 of an acre, which means if I baled that pasture I would need to get somewhere around 12-20 round bales per acre (I've never actually seen a hayfield that productive). If you moved them 4 times a day that would still be about 3-5 bales per acre, which is still much more than I think would come off of that pasture.

So, how often are you moving your cattle?


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## ufo_chris

I figured out one time that you need about a 10'x30' area per adult bovine if it's nice lush growth,per day. I'm usually doubling ,tripling and right now x way more, depending on regrowth.
So 60x60 would be enough for 12.


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## agmantoo

ufo_chris said:


> I figured out one time that you need about a 10'x30' area per adult bovine if it's nice lush growth,per day. I'm usually doubling ,tripling and right now x way more, depending on regrowth.
> So 60x60 would be enough for 12.


Your calculations and mine are nearly identical.


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## CesumPec

ufo_chris said:


> I figured out one time that you need about a 10'x30' area per adult bovine if it's nice lush growth,per day. I'm usually doubling ,tripling and right now x way more, depending on regrowth.
> So 60x60 would be enough for 12.


that is a very helpful way of estimating stocking rate that even a dunce like me can put into action. thanks


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## CedarMoore

ycanchu2 said:


> I have some of the same situation. I read an article the other day that said you should wait 2 weeks after light scattered frosts untill you graze JG but it only needs 4 days after a killing or hard frost. We have only had a couple of light frosts here so far.
> The grass may choke it out eventually then it may not, it may take getting one of those weed wipers with roundup to get it all


Well, it went down to 27 degrees last nite, so I should be safe in a few days. I may try the wipers next year. They make a spray for Johnsongrass but it's pretty expensive. Will wait until next year and see how bad it's going to be.


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## CedarMoore

ycanchu2 said:


> IMO yes you are hurting it, but according to the experts not as bad as in the summer.
> I did the same thing you did last year on some stockpiled fescue, it seemed forever coming back in the spring. What happens i think is that the fescue will try to regrow during the warmer days of winter and when it does if the cattle have access to it they will just keep coming back and biting the new growth off therefore depleting the root reserves. Just don't allow any backgrazing and don't let them graze the paddock they are in down to the ground before moving them. you want to keep enough leaf area for photosythesis to occur.
> This year I have my pasture fenced where I can move them off to new paddocks without them backgrazing.


Yeah, I can prevent the backgrazing during the winter. But everything I read in the university studies on stockpiling recommends strip grazing. Just thought I would the people on this site. I will try rotating this year instead of backgrazing and see if I can tell a difference.


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## CedarMoore

randyandmegs said:


> We had a lot of Johnsongrass in the field pictured above and I clipped it all in early seed stage and that took care of it. I'm sure it will be back next year but no worries at this point.


I clipped my fields at the end of August but the JG came back and headed out by October. The fields I clipped later, I have young JG 8 or 9 inches tall. Guess it depends on your area.


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## randyandmegs

I think the fescue is so thick now that's why I didn't get any regrowth. That or it was a little later in seed out and it just didn't come back. I will have a better idea next year on what works at my place.


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## Gabriel

That spot was low on grass and had a few weeds I wanted trampled. So I unrolled some hay there before putting them in, then doubled the area (where I had some more hay) after 1.5 hrs. 



> But everything I read in the university studies on stockpiling recommends strip grazing.


I found out a long time ago that what the universities say is not Gospel. I talked to the regional grazing guy from the ext' office for the state and he appeared really reticent to give the recommendations I expected to hear. Upon pressing him, he obviously knew a lot more than he had first let on, so perhaps they don't recommend stuff because if it's "too hard" farmers won't try it?


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## CedarMoore

Broadcasted Fria Ryegrass on about 4 acres of ground a few weeks ago. The area was covered with clover earlier this year and just about killed the grass. Anyway, really am impressed with the stand, it is anywhere between 4 and 8 inches. Does anyone here interseed ryegrass in their fescue? If so, how many pounds an acre? Thought I may sow it on my poorest fescue stand next September and feed it the following February. It appears that it would be a good return on the investment.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Yeah, I can prevent the backgrazing during the winter. But everything I read in the university studies on stockpiling recommends strip grazing. Just thought I would the people on this site. I will try rotating this year instead of backgrazing and see if I can tell a difference.


Stripgrazing as I understand it is where you cut off a portion of the field each day, more each day untill its all gone. It works ok as long as you have new grass to give the cows each day, but then when you run out of stockpiled grass if you are like me I would then let them have the run of the field.
The soil conservation/university people like to promote rotational grazing, but their approach to it is somewhat archaic IMO. The ideas promoted on this site/thread are far advanced to theirs IMO.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Broadcasted Fria Ryegrass on about 4 acres of ground a few weeks ago. The area was covered with clover earlier this year and just about killed the grass. Anyway, really am impressed with the stand, it is anywhere between 4 and 8 inches. Does anyone here interseed ryegrass in their fescue? If so, how many pounds an acre? Thought I may sow it on my poorest fescue stand next September and feed it the following February. It appears that it would be a good return on the investment.


Yea I have some Ryegrass interseeded with some fescue...15 to 20 lbs/ac.
Here is something else I am really liking too:
Home of Persist Orchard Grass


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore said:


> Broadcasted Fria Ryegrass on about 4 acres of ground a few weeks ago. The area was covered with clover earlier this year and just about killed the grass. Anyway, really am impressed with the stand, it is anywhere between 4 and 8 inches. Does anyone here interseed ryegrass in their fescue? If so, how many pounds an acre? Thought I may sow it on my poorest fescue stand next September and feed it the following February. It appears that it would be a good return on the investment.


On my poorest stands of fescue I sow 6 to 8 lbs of rye grass and roughly 10 lbs of fescue Ky 31 per acre. If I drill I sow the lower rate and if broadcasting I sow the higher rate. The amount of existing fescue and the quality of the soil impact the rates sown also. Rye grass seed is cheap and I find it comforting to know that I will have additional grazing in the Spring. The rye grass will out perform the fescue in the early Spring but the fescue will be producing when the heat has stressed rye grass as Summer arrives. I find that annual rye grass will often reestablish itself on my place. I am uncertain if as to whether it is from seed or root survival. This volunteer rye grass will become apparent before what I sow.


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## ufo_chris

agmantoo said:


> Your calculations and mine are nearly identical.


Agmantoo,I'm sure I learned from you how to calculate this, somewhere in here


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> Stripgrazing as I understand it is where you cut off a portion of the field each day, more each day untill its all gone. It works ok as long as you have new grass to give the cows each day, *but then when you run out of stockpiled grass if you are like me I would then let them have the run of the field*.


I think that would put your pasture in a death spiral. If you overgraze it's not terrible, _if you're aware of it and remove the animals so that it has time to recover_. If you let them keep going back to graze the plants before they recover, regrowth will be delayed significantly. The growth in my pastures starts 3 weeks ahead of my neighbors. I think I can continue to improve that head start as the soil quality increases.


----------



## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> I think that would put your pasture in a death spiral. If you overgraze it's not terrible, _if you're aware of it and remove the animals so that it has time to recover_. If you let them keep going back to graze the plants before they recover, regrowth will be delayed significantly. The growth in my pastures starts 3 weeks ahead of my neighbors. I think I can continue to improve that head start as the soil quality increases.


What I was saying about letting them have the whole field was a negative thing I meant to imply that I USED to do.
I have stockpiled winter pasture for years but still not seen any real improvement in the pasture, I believe simply for that reason. I finally realized you can overgraze in the winter same as other times of year.


----------



## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> What I was saying about letting them have the whole field was a negative thing I meant to imply that I USED to do.


Oh. Good. My mistake! :happy2:

So y'all saw the worst part of my place. Here's the better part.


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## gwithrow

ok, November here in NC, now what?...we have over seeded whatever we could...we still have some grass and the cows are looking very good, we will continue to rotate...no rain for awhile so I am not sure how long the good grass will be there...well I mean until it is eaten off....then what???

I would like to only feed hay when we have nothing else...or should I hold them up now in a paddock that needs work and feed some hay?
when feeding hay should they just be confined to one area?...
I think sowing anything else now would not be good?....I have some clover to sow in with fescue for early spring...maybe some frost seeding...we have weed work to be done in the spring as well.....I think we are beating back some of the 'stickweed'....some....

I would love a winter review of good practices...for improving soil/pastures even during the 'down' season...and for when the stockpiled grasses are eaten..and if someone can send some rain that would be wonderful....


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## Gabriel

gwithrow said:


> ok, November here in NC, now what?...we have over seeded whatever we could...we still have some grass and the cows are looking very good, we will continue to rotate...no rain for awhile so I am not sure how long the good grass will be there...well I mean until it is eaten off....then what???


Make sure you don't let them eat it off lower than 4". 



gwithrow said:


> I would like to only feed hay when we have nothing else...or should I hold them up now in a paddock that needs work and feed some hay?
> when feeding hay should they just be confined to one area?...


If the grass is shorter than optimum, I'd feed the hay now to let it grow. Remember, the longer the grass is, the faster it grows - up to a point. I'm basing this on the assumption that you _will_ still have some growth before it gets too cold. 

I'm feeding hay on some of the paddocks now, the end with no shade. This is the end where horses use to run up and down, so it's hard packed and almost devoid of good grass anyway. I'm timing it so they spend the nights there and really drop lots of paddies on it. Yes, they scalp it and I won't do that elsewhere for that reason. When the grass is gone for the year, they'll go to an area that I want to grow a garden in next year.


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

I am still in a very dry situation. My normally flowing all season streams remain dry ditches. However, I am managing to get some growth on fescue and sown annual rye grass. For November the weather is starting off colder than normal but we should get some growth on the cool season grasses until at least mid December. If I had grass that is 4 inches tall or taller I would hold the cattle off that grass and feed hay. If you feed this grass now it will be finished till Spring. IMO hay needs to be fed on sacrificial ground, ground that has little potential to provide any grazing until renovated. gwithrow, attempt to get an inventory of what grass you will have in January and February if you feed hay now, holding the grass till then. Expect the dormancy of the cool season grasses to break within the first 15 days of March so you may need to have some hay again for a short time. You will not want to stress the March starting to grow forage by grazing it too short.


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## CesumPec

agmantoo said:


> gwithrow
> IMO hay needs to be fed on sacrificial ground, ground that has little potential to provide any grazing until renovated.


Joel Salatin years ago started feeding hay on exposed rock shelves in his fields. I've walked his fields and today you can't find those shelves, the fields are lush unending grass.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> gwithrow
> 
> I am still in a very dry situation. My normally flowing all season streams remain dry ditches. However, I am managing to get some growth on fescue and sown annual rye grass. For November the weather is starting off colder than normal but we should get some growth on the cool season grasses until at least mid December. If I had grass that is 4 inches tall or taller I would hold the cattle off that grass and feed hay. If you feed this grass now it will be finished till Spring. IMO hay needs to be fed on sacrificial ground, ground that has little potential to provide any grazing until renovated. gwithrow, attempt to get an inventory of what grass you will have in January and February if you feed hay now, holding the grass till then. Expect the dormancy of the cool season grasses to break within the first 15 days of March so you may need to have some hay again for a short time. You will not want to stress the March starting to grow forage by grazing it too short.


You will not want to stress the March starting to grow forage by grazing it too short. 
Agmantoo;
About the above sentence.....do you mean don't start grazing while it is too short...in other words wait untill it gets tall enough?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

Your interpretation is what I meant. IMO while the grass is attempting to get reestablished following the stress of Winter you will use up a lot of the root stored reserves and grazing to soon will further stress the plant causing a setback in growth and future potential.


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## francismilker

agmantoo said:


> gwithrow
> 
> I am still in a very dry situation. My normally flowing all season streams remain dry ditches. However, I am managing to get some growth on fescue and sown annual rye grass. For November the weather is starting off colder than normal but we should get some growth on the cool season grasses until at least mid December. If I had grass that is 4 inches tall or taller I would hold the cattle off that grass and feed hay. If you feed this grass now it will be finished till Spring. IMO hay needs to be fed on sacrificial ground, ground that has little potential to provide any grazing until renovated. gwithrow, attempt to get an inventory of what grass you will have in January and February if you feed hay now, holding the grass till then. Expect the dormancy of the cool season grasses to break within the first 15 days of March so you may need to have some hay again for a short time. You will not want to stress the March starting to grow forage by grazing it too short.


agman, 

I don't get to spend the time very often to read through this large thread. I've kept up with it through the years off and on though. I'm wondering if you've had to cut back on your stocking rate or find new innovative ways to do an "no grain, no hay" regimen now with the drought. 

I've almost totally adapted to grass based but this continual, (three years below normal rainfall with last year being extreme) drought. 

If I wasn't feeding hay now my very low stocking rate of bovine would be starving to death. 
As well, without the multi species grazing with hairsheep and goats, my cattle would be looking at a bunch of noxious, unpallatable weeds. 

I'm wondering if rotational grazing is working well for you now.


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## agmantoo

I am still getting along OK. No hay or grain is being fed but the weather has tested my skills with rotational grazing and I still have Winter to contend with regarding feed. I have not reduced the headcount and I have sold a good number of calves this year and the prices have been the best ever. Fortunately we have been getting some heavy dews and the plants are getting some moisture through the foliage. My cows are in reasonable decent body condition and they are breeding and settling fine. Rye grass that I sowed recently is emerging and I remain optimistic going forth. My neighbors are liquidating their herd and another nearby producer has been feeding hay since August. I have given a lot of thought about the reoccurring droughts and I am now thinking that as producers we may need to have a stored reserve of hay to see us through the trying times. With the reserve of hay I also think I could increase my headcount by 20% and only feed a limited amount of hay. I have a surplus of forage in the Spring and into early Summer. I remain uncertain if this 20% in calves would offset the expense of the purchased hay but I am certain there would be merit in seeing the main herd through trying times. In 2007/2008 I cut the herd size and it took too long to recover. The monetary loss from the culling exceeded the value of the high priced hay that I should have purchased. This was a lesson that I did not want to learn! My outlook remains positive and I expect feeder calves to remain profitable.


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## francismilker

agmantoo said:


> I am still getting along OK. No hay or grain is being fed but the weather has tested my skills with rotational grazing and I still have Winter to contend with regarding feed. I have not reduced the headcount and I have sold a good number of calves this year and the prices have been the best ever. Fortunately we have been getting some heavy dews and the plants are getting some moisture through the foliage. My cows are in reasonable decent body condition and they are breeding and settling fine. Rye grass that I sowed recently is emerging and I remain optimistic going forth. My neighbors are liquidating their herd and another nearby producer has been feeding hay since August. I have given a lot of thought about the reoccurring droughts and I am now thinking that as producers we may need to have a stored reserve of hay to see us through the trying times. With the reserve of hay I also think I could increase my headcount by 20% and only feed a limited amount of hay. I have a surplus of forage in the Spring and into early Summer. I remain uncertain if this 20% in calves would offset the expense of the purchased hay but I am certain there would be merit in seeing the main herd through trying times. In 2007/2008 I cut the herd size and it took too long to recover. The monetary loss from the culling exceeded the value of the high priced hay that I should have purchased. This was a lesson that I did not want to learn! My outlook remains positive and I expect feeder calves to remain profitable.


On the flipside of keeping herd numbers up, I know a very wise, seasoned cattleman that has a herd of 200-225 mama cows at any one time. He is a good keeper of his land and you can tell by the way things look he works at it very diligently. He's not sitting around the coffee shop all day, he's making hay while the sun shines so to speak. 

When I drive by his pastures I see cows standing in belly deep forage and have asked him many times why he doesn't stock up on numbers as he has the land to handle many more. His viewpoint that's been developed over the past few decades is that he never keeps more cattle than he can feed with standing forage during the most extreme drought conditions imaginable. 

Now, with our three years worth of dry conditions, he's the one not buying out of state hay for inflated prices and still selling his calves every quarter. He doesn't put all of his eggs in one basket. He sells quarterly and absorbs the highs and lows of the market yet still has steady income.


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## Gabriel

Francismilker, do you receive the _Stockman Grass Farmer_?


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## francismilker

Gabriel said:


> Francismilker, do you receive the _Stockman Grass Farmer_?


Yes, I get hand-me-down's from a neighbor.


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## Maka

I have a question for this group regarding Bull vs AI. I am working on my small operation and expect to have around 12 momma's plus calves when I'm done. I had my mind pretty much set to AI with such a small group. However my uncle who is a lifelong cattle man kindly said I might want to think about that. He said he has had very good luck purchasing a young bull, using it for 4-5 years then selling it. He said he pretty much always gets more for the bull than he paid and it sure makes life easier having a bull running with the cattle rather than AI. He also feels the herd runs together better when led by a bull.

I understand the Bull will eat some grass, and could cost me a momma or two to stay within my carry capacity.

The other thing that comes to my mind is not every young bull is good. I do have my Uncle at my disposal to help pick them out and he does seem to go from one good bull to another. He also said that to his mind one problem with AI is catching the cow at the right time. If you miss a cycle that means every 9 misses is equal to one calf.

Other thoughts? What do you all think about this logic?

Thanks
Ed


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## Gabriel

francismilker said:


> Yes, I get hand-me-down's from a neighbor.


This month's edition has a good article on dealing with long term drought. It's written by Steven Lukefahr. He's got some similar info' on his site.


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## Gabriel

I've got a friend who's been wanting to put animals on his place. I'm trying to link a map of the farm, if this works, any input y'all have on set up would be great. 

Scribble Maps - Draw on google maps with scribblings and more!

Red is the property line where the fence will be, blue is water. The lines are streams that, to his knowledge, run year 'round. The blue circles are sink holes that also have water year 'round. The sink hole water is clear and appears to be good, although I didn't taste it. There are fish in them. It's too steep to let the cattle drink directly from them though. Power is available at the house on the north side of the property. It's roughly 30-32 acres.


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## ycanchu2

francismilker said:


> On the flipside of keeping herd numbers up, I know a very wise, seasoned cattleman that has a herd of 200-225 mama cows at any one time. He is a good keeper of his land and you can tell by the way things look he works at it very diligently. He's not sitting around the coffee shop all day, he's making hay while the sun shines so to speak.
> 
> When I drive by his pastures I see cows standing in belly deep forage and have asked him many times why he doesn't stock up on numbers as he has the land to handle many more. His viewpoint that's been developed over the past few decades is that he never keeps more cattle than he can feed with standing forage during the most extreme drought conditions imaginable.
> 
> Now, with our three years worth of dry conditions, he's the one not buying out of state hay for inflated prices and still selling his calves every quarter. He doesn't put all of his eggs in one basket. He sells quarterly and absorbs the highs and lows of the market yet still has steady income.


200-225 Cows.........how many acres?


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## agmantoo

Gabriel


vertical Lane on the right
Paddocks running left to right. This was freehand and the layout needs the fences to be parallel 
Electricity from the house
Plenty of shade
Water availability seems great

Not enough info to determine where a holding area would be or how to access the pasture from house or highway.


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## bigbluegrass

Maka said:


> I have a question for this group regarding Bull vs AI.
> Other thoughts? What do you all think about this logic?
> 
> Thanks
> Ed


Maka: I just started to AI this year. I have always had a bull before this past year. So I have done it both ways. This year I missed several cows and ended up setting a few that I know are very fertile back a few months. It is a lot more work to AI your cows, but you can have access to some outstanding bulls. You can breed your cows to as many different bulls as you like. It is recommended that you watch your cows twice a day every day for 1/2 hour to see which ones are in heat. It is time consuming, above a normal rotational grazing system.

IMO: If you plan to calve year round, I would get a bull and be done with it. Maybe see if your uncle will sell you his "used" bull? If you don't think you will be around every day twice a day, I would use a bull. If you want a calving season and you have the time to be around every day, I would try AI. I do mine off natural heat with no sync shots. It works, but it takes time.


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## ramiller5675

bigbluegrass said:


> ...IMO: If you plan to calve year round, I would get a bull and be done with it...If you want a calving season and you have the time to be around every day, I would try AI...


A decent bull should be able to get 12 cows bred in less than 30 days, I'm not so sure that you could AI them and get a shorter calving season.


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## bigbluegrass

ramiller5675 said:


> A decent bull should be able to get 12 cows bred in less than 30 days, I'm not so sure that you could AI them and get a shorter calving season.


I agree - not sure why you think I am saying a bull can't cover 12 cows in 30 days.

My point is you don't want to AI if you are calving year round, since you will constantly be heat detecting. That is a half hour twice a day and not missing any of those all year round. It just isn't practical. If you wanted to AI your cows, you need a calving season.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> Gabriel
> 
> 
> vertical Lane on the right
> Paddocks running left to right. This was freehand and the layout needs the fences to be parallel
> Electricity from the house
> Plenty of shade
> Water availability seems great
> 
> Not enough info to determine where a holding area would be or how to access the pasture from house or highway.


Thanks, Agmantoo. Wouldn't you put a permanent fence (with a gate or three) right down the middle? It's about 400 yds across, which would make for a really thin slice. It's only 32'ish acres. 

AI vs. bull: I hardly feel qualified to state anything definitively, but will weigh in and hope to be corrected if I'm wrong. Personally, I'd try to rent/borrow a bull if you can find one that has acceptable genetics. However, in my area that would be pretty much impossible as nobody nearby here (except me) has grass genetics. However, if there is one, you may be able to use a different calving season than they are and thus get away without owning the bull. I am strongly in favor of one calving season as it makes management easier than calving year 'round, especially if your pasture quality is less than optimum.


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## francismilker

ycanchu2 said:


> 200-225 Cows.........how many acres?


Runs them on 1200 acres. It's about 50/50 grass and timber. He could easily double his stocking rate imho, but he's prepared for the worst case scenario with drought. There's enough standing forage left over every year for him to put some protein tubs out and they'll clean it out. He uses very little to no hay even in the worst years. His acreage is cut into many different 80 acres pastures that are managed and rotated according to rainfall.


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## agmantoo

Gabriel

My partitioning was just to provide the concept. Not knowing if the user intends to rotate and/or rotate frequently doesn't give me much to run with. Is this going to be a for profit operation or for hobby? Do they plan on maximizing the potential of the acreage? I am not an efficiency expert but I tend to layout paddocks to minimize wasting fuel and time. I try to minimize the input costs so I do not recommend gates and permanent fences unless necessary. The reason for the number of paddocks is to attempt having enough area to create a grazing flow to create at least a 6 week interval between grazings. Obvious a good permanent perimeter fence is necessary but the internal partitions can be single wire and polywire IMO.


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## Gabriel

> Is this going to be a for profit operation or for hobby?


For profit. He will be doing the daily moves, or at least every 3 days. 



> Do they plan on maximizing the potential of the acreage?


Yes. Long term it will probably not be limited to grazing, they will add fruit/nut trees etc. They'd like to eventually make it as sustainable a homestead as possible. I recommended they start with grazing as it's the cheapest way to improve the fertility that I know of.


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## ycanchu2

francismilker said:


> Runs them on 1200 acres. It's about 50/50 grass and timber. He could easily double his stocking rate imho, but he's prepared for the worst case scenario with drought. There's enough standing forage left over every year for him to put some protein tubs out and they'll clean it out. He uses very little to no hay even in the worst years. His acreage is cut into many different 80 acres pastures that are managed and rotated according to rainfall.


if he doubled his herd to 400 cows that would give him an extra 200 calves per year at say $600 each.......that's another $120,000. Lets say he had to buy 1200 rolls of hay @ $50/roll that is $60,000 to feed from Dec to April, 4 months. That leaves $60,000 profit assuming he would need that much haybut if not then he's made another $120,000.
However, he is probably making a real good living on a 200 head cowherd so he don't need to double it.
But , guys like me who have a hundred hd. cow herd or less can't sell off half the herd and still make a living. If I can take my herd to 150 by optimizing my pasture then I've created another $30,000 or so income, and if worse came to worse I could sell off the extra 50 cows for 40 or 50 thousand and I am just right back where I was.


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## Maka

bigbluegrass said:


> Maka: I just started to AI this year. I have always had a bull before this past year. So I have done it both ways. This year I missed several cows and ended up setting a few that I know are very fertile back a few months. It is a lot more work to AI your cows, but you can have access to some outstanding bulls. You can breed your cows to as many different bulls as you like. It is recommended that you watch your cows twice a day every day for 1/2 hour to see which ones are in heat. It is time consuming, above a normal rotational grazing system.
> 
> IMO: If you plan to calve year round, I would get a bull and be done with it. Maybe see if your uncle will sell you his "used" bull? If you don't think you will be around every day twice a day, I would use a bull. If you want a calving season and you have the time to be around every day, I would try AI. I do mine off natural heat with no sync shots. It works, but it takes time.


Thanks BBG. Do you AI yourself or work with a Vet? It seems like it might be difficult (and expensive) to keep the vet running out to your place to AI as your cows go into heat as well. Of course keeping a Bull is not cheap in itself.


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2, upon reading your figures, the first thought that came to my mind was that you're using current prices while the old rancher is much more aware of last decade's prices. I think that with QE we won't see a return to those prices, but the advantage of higher prices now will be offset as inflation causes all other prices to catch up. Anyway, my point is that he's probably very conservative financially, having seen both good times and bad. Also, $600 per calf may be gross, but net? Doubtful. Besides, "Poor Richard" (Ben Franklin) is now no longer correct in his statement "a penny saved is a penny earned". It's now $1.00 saved is $1.40 earned. The tax man spares nobody... sometimes it's just not worth earning more.


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## bigbluegrass

Maka said:


> Thanks BBG. Do you AI yourself or work with a Vet? It seems like it might be difficult (and expensive) to keep the vet running out to your place to AI as your cows go into heat as well. Of course keeping a Bull is not cheap in itself.


I do my own AI work. I don't think it will pencil out well for you if you need to pay a vet or AI tech. I can AI my cows cheaper than I can keep a bull. I only have 4 breeding age cows right now. We can start a new thread if you want more AI information or PM me. This probably is not the best place for the discussion.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> ycanchu2, upon reading your figures, the first thought that came to my mind was that you're using current prices while the old rancher is much more aware of last decade's prices. I think that with QE we won't see a return to those prices, but the advantage of higher prices now will be offset as inflation causes all other prices to catch up. Anyway, my point is that he's probably very conservative financially, having seen both good times and bad. Also, $600 per calf may be gross, but net? Doubtful. Besides, "Poor Richard" (Ben Franklin) is now no longer correct in his statement "a penny saved is a penny earned". It's now $1.00 saved is $1.40 earned. The tax man spares nobody... sometimes it's just not worth earning more.


With a 200 hd cow herd the Farmer is making a very good living, assuming he has very little debt and isn't spending $50,000/yr on fertilize. If I had a 200plus cow herd I probably wouldn't want or need anymore either regardless of how many acres i had to run them on. But most farmers like myself, don't have an operation like that so we have to optimize our acres per cow.
I have a friend of mine that has cut his cow herd in half to insure he has enough pasture because he don't want to pay the high fertilise costs that most farmers need or think they need in a continuous grazing operation. His wife is a retired postmaster and he is at retirement age so they get by just fine I'm sure.
Guys like me and you, especially me, have to be pushing the envelope with things like IRG to survive IMO.


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## agmantoo

Weather has been unusually colder than normal and we remain abnormally dry. I continue with my rotational grazing practices and watch the sky for possible moisture. Within another 30 days or so most or all growth will cease on the fescue and I will be on stockpiled forage. Here is the herd grazing late this afternoon. My cell phone camera leaves a lot to be desired under these light conditions.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Weather has been unusually colder than normal and we remain abnormally dry. I continue with my rotational grazing practices and watch the sky for possible moisture. Within another 30 days or so most or all growth will cease on the fescue and I will be on stockpiled forage. Here is the herd grazing late this afternoon. My cell phone camera leaves a lot to be desired under these light conditions.


i'm sure you have answered this question in the past, but how much are you allotting right now per day?


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## agmantoo

*i'm sure you have answered this question in the past, but how much are you allotting right now per day?
*

ycanchu2
I am concentrating to maximizing what forage that I have in oder to get through the Winter. I am also debating within myself as to whether to buy some hay to feed in December. The cattle seem pacified with the forage allocation and they are holding body condition. My concern is for the cows that have calves on them. I sold all calves that I intended to market recently and culled 2 more cows. The herd headcount hovers at 100 + or - including the retained breeding age heifers. Yesterdays allocation of area was only 6/10ths of an acre. The grass was roughly 12 to 14 inches tall. The herd will eat that down to a couple of inches. Growth for the year is about finished and this height will about create ground cover before going dormant. It has been a trying year with the lack of moisture. I am fortunate in that I am about the only remaining producer in my area with any grass. Others nearby have been on hay for at least a month or more.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo - I feel your exact pain right now. I think I had a little more moisture than you this summer but until last last week my area had basically no moisture falling from the sky since the last week or so of August. The areas I grazed the past 3 months have had no significant regrowth until the last couple of days. I had in my mind that I was going to get another rotation out of those areas starting mid to late December. Now I'm thinking I only have 1 month of grazing left as of today - then my 30-40 days of hay - that only brings me to the end of January - about 6 - 8 weeks short of spring green up.

I am trying to close on a new place that has seen no grazing or clipping for over a year - the existing electric fences are in bad shape and if I close on it it will be a mad rush for me to fix up the electric fence before I run out of hay.

Have you gotten any rain in the past week or so?


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## agmantoo

*Have you gotten any rain in the past week or so?*

None!


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## SCRancher

I'm sorry to hear that!

I have a faint glimmer of hope after doing a pasture walk yesterday that IF we can maintain temp's like I had yesterday (70) for a couple more weeks that I may be able to get some graze out of those past areas. I noticed around an inch of regrowth since my last pasture walk about 5 days ago.

It is a slim hope however, the rest of this week looks good with temps in the mid 60's but next week the temps drop into the 50's with a couple of nights below 32 - more rain forecast for 8-9 days from now but I don't trust those long range rain predictions.

I'll continue with my plan of finishing grazing the pasture I have left, move the cows to the "improvement" area and feed the hay I have till it run's out, then move the cows to the wooded/old beaver pond area till they strip it, and while there figure out my next move.

Hope you get some rain soon!


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## agmantoo

SCRancher

Look your pastures over to see if you can locate any remaining clover. If you see some good stands feed that clover ASAP. As soon as the low temps drop a little lower that clover will freeze out. May as well get some benefit from the clover now.


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## SCRancher

Agmantoo,

Thanks - that's pretty much all that's left is my 50/50 clover/fescue area - I can't let them loose in the entire area or they will bloat for sure - I'm a feeding it to them as fast as I dare. I'll take a pic today of what I have left - will be a crappy cell phone picture but should show my remaining forage. 

The upcoming couple of days of freeze should be close to the end of my available forage - the night before the expected freeze if I have little enough left I'll let them at the remaining so they can eat up as much of the lush clover as they can.

I appreciate the advice!


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## bigbluegrass

We have been very blessed with timely rains here this past year - except in June and July it was so hot and dry.

The grass recovered well from the summer heat and came back better than I expected this fall. I think this is the first fall since I have been doing this - 3 years I guess - that I actually had fall regrowth that was significant. The first two years the grass just didn't grow.

I fed all my high percentage clover pastures already. I have been feeding hay for the past two weeks to get as much regrowth as possible before I go onto the winter stockpiled grass. I plan to turn the cows into a wooded area next week and that should last them two or more weeks. I am sure that if I had agmantoo's grazing skills I wouldn't feed any hay, but it is still a crutch I carry! I have cut the amount of hay I purchase each year in half from the previous. In 2 more years my goal is that I won't buy any hay - unless there is a drought. I hope between now and then to convert more of the wooded areas into pasture. It is a slow process for sure.


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## CedarMoore

Planning for next year, I need some advice on a ten acre field that the common bermuda is taking over. I have heard of people in the deep south that plant rye in the fall and it will choke out the bermuda over the years. I am speaking of their yards, it is not intended to kill the bermuda, it just happens.

I hate to use round up and start over. Any advice?

Also, what happened to the person that started this thread?


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## ramiller5675

CedarMoore said:


> Planning for next year, I need some advice on a ten acre field that the common bermuda is taking over. I have heard of people in the deep south that plant rye in the fall and it will choke out the bermuda over the years. I am speaking of their yards, it is not intended to kill the bermuda, it just happens.
> 
> I hate to use round up and start over. Any advice?
> 
> Also, what happened to the person that started this thread?


I don't live in the Deep South, but I've got bermuda pastures that I graze and cut for hay, and I've never heard of planting rye to choke out bermuda. 

And, do you mean rye or ryegrass? Ryegrass might slightly delay when bermuda greens up in the spring, but I doubt if it will kill it out.

The only thing I've ever seen that might kill out bermuda would be planting something like sorghum-sudangrass in the spring to shade out the bermuda. But, you would probably still need to use some Roundup as a burndown before planting. 

Saying all that, I don't see why you wouldn't just graze the bermuda.


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore

I am not fond of common bermuda grass either and Coastal bermuda doesn't perform here. The amount of forage from common bermuda is just not adequate during its growing season. I however do have some volunteer bermuda growing. Getting rid of common bermuda is difficult and I have for now quit trying. I have found that by overseeding with 20 lbs/acre with Marshall ryegrass in September/October and then, before frost, let the cattle eat the common bermuda very close to the ground. This effort will let the cattle walk the Marshall ryegrass seed into the soil and the Marshall ryegrass should germinate. Next I held the cattle off the new growth of the MR and let the MR go to seed in the Spring following the initial seeding. After the MR went to seed I let the cattle back on the area. I did this 3 years ago. In my area this annual Marshall ryegrass has seemingly become a perennial. In other ares where I never planted any MR I now unexplainably see ryegrass volunteering also. I am now able to get grazing from the Marshall ryegrass in the cool seasons and from the common ryegrass during the hot season. Thus far this has been a big improvement for me.


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## ArmyDoc

CedarMoore said:


> Planning for next year, I need some advice on a ten acre field that the common bermuda is taking over. I have heard of people in the deep south that plant rye in the fall and it will choke out the bermuda over the years. I am speaking of their yards, it is not intended to kill the bermuda, it just happens.
> 
> I hate to use round up and start over. Any advice?
> 
> Also, what happened to the person that started this thread?


Down here, bahia grass will take over a bermuda pasture, but I don't know if it will grow that far north, or if you would want it to. Some people say it isn't as good as bermuda, but that depends on how you look at it. Given lots of fertilizer, they are probably right. But if can't provide high fertilizer loads, it may be better because it generally it requires less than bermuda to do well, and it does well on sandy acidic soils.


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## CedarMoore

Thanks for the responses on my bermuda grass problem. I do graze the bermuda, but the cows just consume the first inch or two even in the middle summer. I have tried to leave them in the problem area an extra day to "make" them eat it. They just eat everything else to the ground.

I did sow some ryegrass in some of the bermuda in October. I was hoping to graze late February but I will wait until it seeds out to graze it and see what happens. Just hate seeing all those brown spots in my pasture.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> CedarMoore
> 
> I am not fond of common bermuda grass either and Coastal bermuda doesn't perform here. The amount of forage from common bermuda is just not adequate during its growing season. I however do have some volunteer bermuda growing. Getting rid of common bermuda is difficult and I have for now quit trying. I have found that by overseeding with 20 lbs/acre with Marshall ryegrass in September/October and then, before frost, let the cattle eat the common bermuda very close to the ground. This effort will let the cattle walk the Marshall ryegrass seed into the soil and the Marshall ryegrass should germinate. Next I held the cattle off the new growth of the MR and let the MR go to seed in the Spring following the initial seeding. After the MR went to seed I let the cattle back on the area. I did this 3 years ago. In my area this annual Marshall ryegrass has seemingly become a perennial. In other ares where I never planted any MR I now unexplainably see ryegrass volunteering also. I am now able to get grazing from the Marshall ryegrass in the cool seasons and from the common ryegrass during the hot season. Thus far this has been a big improvement for me.


In the areas where you are getting ryegrass where you didn't sow it: Do you think the cattle are eating some of the seed heads and redistributing it elsewhere and will grasses survive the rumen, for example ryegrass, fescue, orchardgrass? I know it is possible to do clover that way, you know mixing it in the mineral.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Thanks for the responses on my bermuda grass problem. I do graze the bermuda, but the cows just consume the first inch or two even in the middle summer. I have tried to leave them in the problem area an extra day to "make" them eat it. They just eat everything else to the ground.
> 
> I did sow some ryegrass in some of the bermuda in October. I was hoping to graze late February but I will wait until it seeds out to graze it and see what happens. Just hate seeing all those brown spots in my pasture.


I think you could bombard those Bermuda spots with fescue or orchardgrass, the ryegrass which is good, but will fizzle allowing the bermuda to takeover again.
I have some bermuda spots also but I am seeing lots of fescue along with it, especially coming on in the fall, must be where i've unrolled lots of hay there in the last few years.


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## Allen W

CedarMoore said:


> Thanks for the responses on my bermuda grass problem. I do graze the bermuda, but the cows just consume the first inch or two even in the middle summer. I have tried to leave them in the problem area an extra day to "make" them eat it. They just eat everything else to the ground.
> 
> I did sow some ryegrass in some of the bermuda in October. I was hoping to graze late February but I will wait until it seeds out to graze it and see what happens. Just hate seeing all those brown spots in my pasture.


Most all the protein in bermuda grass is found in the first 2 inches of the growing tip. That could be why they won't eat any more of it.


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore

Reduce the size of the paddock when grazing the common bermuda grass to create competition for the forage to be grazed. Doing so will create the requirement for the cattle to eat what is available rather than select what they are going to graze. Mob grazing works in this manner.


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## CedarMoore

Sorta like this time of the year. Most farmers will be feeding hay in the next couple of weeks. It's just nice to see your grazing management and work paying dividends when your neighbors are feeding hay. I doubt if I will ever have year round grazing, but just grazing through January and part of Feburary is a sucess to me. It's nice to have hay you can feed during extreme cold or wet conditions to protect your pastures.


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## agmantoo

Possible showers tomorrow. For now we remain dry. As I recently stated I am now feeding stockpiled fescue. The cattle have decent body condition and they are eating the not to good forage. I remain pleasantly surprised at how the pastures are holding up in spite of nearly no rain. Here is the herd on today's allocation. I am including a pic on what is normally a year round stream fed from a spring. As you can see the stream bed is growing volunteer grass of unknown to me species. I am often told that rotational grazing will not work because my area is not impacted by droughts and such. I believe a person would be hard pressed to find many places as dry as it is here at this time. Rotational grazing is still working in spite of the lack of rain and can benefit those willing to change.


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## Gabriel

The realization that the way "it's always been done" will not continue to work in the future is beginning to sink in. Diesel bulls or solar bulls?


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## CedarMoore

Hey Agman, where did that white calf come from? I like the Murray Grey cross, they look good!

Dry here also. Farmers complaining about their tobacco not coming in order for stripping.


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## Gabriel

Well, I've given up on the sheep. I brought a new group in to increase herd numbers quicker and they went through fences, taking the rest with them. Just not worth the trouble any longer. Oh well!


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## lnicholson

Sorry to hear about the sheep going through the fences!!! I've finally got my goats perimeter fence trained pretty well so my question to those who have multi species is how do you temp fence for sheep or goats...... that works?

I will have my place sliced up into paddocks sizes of 3,6,7,9,16,20 and 28 ac. I am trying to figure the best way to slice up the bigger parcels without putting in perminant fence as the bigger parcels are in row crops.... any suggestions?

Does poly rope work or is the electro netting the best approach?

Thanks!


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## SCRancher

For cows poly-twine works fine for me - occasionally something will spook them and there is no stopping them then - but then again I had my bull in a steel-tube corral and something spooked him and it didn't stop him either.


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## Gabriel

Poly' wire does work, in my case I was just having to put up too many strands. The grass and scrub was too tall to put the lower wires in without mowing first and it just became too much work. I only have limited experience with netting, but feel like poly' wire is easier/cheaper, as long as it's hot enough for them to respect it. My sheep did and do respect a 3 wire hot fence.

Here's an article on what overgrazed grass looks like.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Poly' wire does work, in my case I was just having to put up too many strands. The grass and scrub was too tall to put the lower wires in without mowing first and it just became too much work. I only have limited experience with netting, but feel like poly' wire is easier/cheaper, as long as it's hot enough for them to respect it. My sheep did and do respect a 3 wire hot fence.
> 
> Here's an article on what overgrazed grass looks like.


All inputs welcome..... The article about what overgrazed grass looks like says the grass should be grazed down from 20 to 50 % and no more. I've read articles by others that say basically the same thing. I do believe that is the best approach. With this in mind are we shooting ourselves in the foot when we mow our own hay fields for hay( those of us who are still have to feed hay at this point)? I try to mow my hay fairly high but with these disc mowers and especially discbines it is very easy to scalp it. A few years ago a neighbor talked me into helping him put up his hay and in return he would help me and we would use his equipment. It seemed to work out pretty good at the time...he has a 12' MoCo discbine and it would literally cut the grass shorter than a lawn mower. So naturally all growth had to come back from the roots. Would we be better off bringing our hay in so as not to severely cut our fields?


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## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> Would we be better off bringing our hay in so as not to severely cut our fields?


IMHO, absolutely! Jim Gerrish crunches the #'s in "_How to kick the hay habit_" and shows that the real cost of making a typical round bale is not less than $65, often it's much higher than that. Keep in mind, part of the cost is opportunity cost, which is to say, think of the lost grazing. Buy your hay, import fertility, graze more cattle.


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## lnicholson

I just finished that book.... Very Informative! I have made so many spread sheets it would make an accountant laugh! I was looking at cutting hay off my place as well but after looking at actual cost is a no-brain-er.... bring it in... don't cut your own.

How many pounds per ac are you year-round grazers running?...... I know this is not cows per ac.... but pounds per ac.


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## agmantoo

~1142 lbs plus


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## lnicholson

Thanks Agman... that is right in line with Jim Gerish's numbers.


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## agmantoo

lnicholson

Out of curiosity what was Jim Gerish's numbers?

I respect him and appreciate his contributions to the cattle business.


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## lnicholson

The example he gives in his book is as follows:


calculate individual animal requirements:
A. 1,200 lb/cow x 2.2% body weight/day =26 #'s /cow/day

B. calculate total herd demand: 26 #'s/day x's 100 cows x's 120 winter days (non grass growing days) = 316,800 #'s of total herd demand.

C. Calculate total standing forage: (this is where the numbers will very based upon region, soil, moisture etc.)
Average mature fescue height = 10" with average density
10"x350 lbs/acre-inch = 3,500 lbs/ac

D. Calculate the target grazable forage per ac:
He uses 70%...... yours and my pastures will be in the 90% plus area in my opinion.
3,500 lbs/ac x 70% =2,450 lbs/ac

E. Calculate total grazed forage:
2,450 lbs/ac X 80 ac = 196,000 lbs of forage expected from pasture

F. Calculate the deficit or surplus:
total supply - total demand :196,000 available - 316,800 lbs needed = -120,800 lbs deficit.

So in the example he is running 1,500 lbs / ac with a 120,800 lb need for hay.


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## agmantoo

Thanks


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## MarkM

1) I will be broadcast seeding clover this winter. My attempt last winter had poor results. I had decided that I would broadcast in front of the herd this winter in hopes of better results. Is it too early to start this? Next week I will start grazing areas that I will not be back on before spring.

2) In rolling out hay for feeding, what pattern do I use. Cover the area solid? Strips? I will continue to move them daily.


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## bigbluegrass

Mark - I would like to know how you seeded the clover last year, that didn't work. I have had great success just broadcast seeding it over frozen ground in the later winter/early spring (February is when I have always done it). I don't know if your ground freezes, that would make a difference. Don't get it too deep. You want it to lay on the top of the ground and "melt" into the spring soil. I have had too much clover the past few springs and I will not be seeding any for a few years. Both red and white clovers have taken off here. Like I said, IMO I have too much.

As for rolling out hay, I would roll it out in rows so each row is far enough apart the cows aren't eating some and standing on or crapping on the other. I would start at about 20 ft apart and adjust as needed. They usually clean it up better if it isn't too deep.


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## MarkM

BBG,

I broadcast seeded 3lbs/ac. However, it was on pasture that was tall and had not been grazed in two years and we had a VERY mild winter. We also went from a mild, wet winter to a hot DRY summer. I was very disappointed with the results.

Some of my paddocks are really thick with fescue and I had a lot of trouble last year with the endophytes that I would not like to repeat this year.

Is there a downside to putting out the clover this early?


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## SCRancher

It depends on how the winter goes. Where I am it could easily germinate now and then get killed by a hard freeze - today's temp's are supposed to be 65 and sunny - nice weather.


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## bigbluegrass

Mark - You are going to want to get the grass grazed down pretty low or the grass will shade out the clover. I usually take mine down to a few inches tall and maybe even let the cows turn up a little dirt/mud. I wouldn't plant it now. There are too many risks and not very many advantages. Just graze it short when you rotate the cows. If it comes back too thick before spring, then I would graze it again before planting it. Some of the seed you planted last year may still be laying out there waiting to sprout.


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## agmantoo

Projections are that we may get some extremely needed rain later today. It has been nearly 2 months since we got any measurable precipitation and that was less than 1/4 inch. The attached pic is an update on how the paddocks are holding up and condition of the herd as they graze the stockpiled fescue. I am allocating/limiting the amount of area to be grazed in order to assure that I can make it through the Winter. The herd is calm and they do not rush abnormally onto new grass as I move them. There needs IMO are being met but they would like to have better forage and more to select from.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Projections are that we may get some extremely needed rain later today. It has been nearly 2 months since we got any measurable precipitation and that was less than 1/4 inch. The attached pic is an update on how the paddocks are holding up and condition of the herd as they graze the stockpiled fescue. I am allocating/limiting the amount of area to be grazed in order to assure that I can make it through the Winter. The herd is calm and they do not rush abnormally onto new grass as I move them. There needs IMO are being met but they would like to have better forage and more to select from.


 Cattle look great......I think they are somewhat like people, we would like to have an endless buffet bar when all we really need is a bowl of oatmeal.


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## thestartupman

Ok, I fianally got my first cattle, and I am sitting on a lot of grass for them to graze this winter, because I had nothing grazing it this summer. I bought 15 cow calf pair. My question for those with experence with stock piling grass for the winter, is. What kind of supplements do you give them to go with it?


----------



## ramiller5675

thestartupman said:


> Ok, I fianally got my first cattle, and I am sitting on a lot of grass for them to graze this winter, because I had nothing grazing it this summer. I bought 15 cow calf pair. My question for those with experence with stock piling grass for the winter, is. What kind of supplements do you give them to go with it?


What kind of grass do you have?

I've had most of the cows on a dormant native grass (big bluestem, little bluestem, etc.) pasture since late-October.

I feed them 38% cubes every other day at about 4 lbs./head (or 2 lbs. a day). 

The cubes are supposed to make the dormant grass (or low quality hay) more digestible, and are also supposed to stimulate their appetites. 

There is more info at:

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2014/ANSI-3017.pdf

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1924/ANSI-3010web.pdf


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## Gabriel

What was their diet before you got them? You want to make the transition slowly, so as to not upset their rumen. I recommend starting with a forage test. If you don't know what you have, you can't know what more the cattle might need.


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## SCRancher

I just feed my cows pasture (mix of grass, clover, and weeds) or grass hay and a loose hi-mag mineral mix for cattle. That's pretty much all they ever get. No protein tubs, no range cubes...

Minerals are expensive enough - I can't imagine feeding protein tubs etc...


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## ycanchu2

ycanchu2 said:


> Cattle look great......I think they are somewhat like people, we would like to have an endless buffet bar when all we really need is a bowl of oatmeal.


Agmantoo,
In the pic you posted above...I was wondering what kind of grass that is in the foreground, it has a tall stem with a seedhead, you can see it against the background of the cow to the left and the calf to the right.
I think I know what it is.


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## Gripshover

I have a pasture that needs reseeding. I live in Northern KY. Can you over seed fescue with success? If so when would be a good time to seed? Or should i get a drill and try to drill it? I could disk it also. Thank You for any advice.

Leo


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## agmantoo

In zone 7 the best time to sow fescue is early Fall. Drilled seed will get a better root establishment but you get grass planted in rows and it is difficult to get the space between the rows to fill in. I prefer broadcast sown fescue for getting a uniform stand of grass. Broadcasting will require more seed to be sown because some of the seed will not get a foothold. Fescue can be planted in the Spring but if the Summer is dry expect the stand to suffer and possibly perish. You also should consider frost seeding if you are willing to risk some die off in a dry Summer. In a rotational grazing practice it is also possible to get the cattle to trample in broadcast seed and establish fescue. I do this often where I get damage from cattle on wet ground.


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## dannybardwell

every now and then i return to this forum and i am still amazed at the results ya'll get from stockpiling and rotational/intensive grazing... one day i will get around to it... i like what ya'll are doing... it takes a little get up and go and right now i'm neck deep in other things... I did however stockpile one area and the cattle/calves continually graze it and are fleshy with only hay and tubs... i'm getting there, thanks for the inputs from everybody.. especially agmantoo....


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## agmantoo

Asked by _ycanchu2_

In the pic you posted above...I was wondering what kind of grass that is in the foreground, it has a tall stem with a seedhead, you can see it against the background of the cow to the left and the calf to the right.
I think I know what it is.

*I did not see your question! Sorry for the oversight.
I am uncertain as to what that grass is. It is a volunteer plant and the reason that it is still standing is the cows do not like it. They may eventually trample the plant but it is unlikely that it will be eaten.
*


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Asked by _ycanchu2_
> 
> In the pic you posted above...I was wondering what kind of grass that is in the foreground, it has a tall stem with a seedhead, you can see it against the background of the cow to the left and the calf to the right.
> I think I know what it is.
> 
> *I did not see your question! Sorry for the oversight.*
> *I am uncertain as to what that grass is. It is a volunteer plant and the reason that it is still standing is the cows do not like it. They may eventually trample the plant but it is unlikely that it will be eaten.*


I have a native summer grass that looks very much like that...the NRCS said it was called "caucasion bluestem" it has a silky burgundy seedhead. It grows pretty good in the summer but matures in late summer and starts going to seed. When it starts going to seed the cattle don't like it very much.


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## agmantoo

_ycanchu2_

That is interesting to know that it is a type of bluestem. I have noticed the burgundy seedhead as you described. I have a friend that is in the saddlebred horse business. One of his buddies brought in some type of bluestem and was boasting how his horses really liked the hay and that if the man I know would visit he would share some of this wonderful hay. He did visit and brought some of the hay back to give the "treat" to his animals. My friend's horses refused to eat the hay. I did look at the hay and it appeared to be properly cured and had not reached the seedhead stage. The man that "shared" the bluestem is now planning on growing the bluestem here in NC. Any idea as to why the cattle do not like the bluestem? Normally my animals will pick through some plants, like pigweed, horse nettle and Virginia creeper, that I never thought they would eat.


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## bigbluegrass

It is difficult to accurately identify a grass plant from an old seed head. I thought the dead seed head in the pictures looked like Purpletop - which is a warm season perennial with a more open seed head than Caucasian Bluestem. However, it could really be a number of other grasses as well from Johnson grass (young), Switchgrass or a number of other warm season grasses. I have a lot of grass in my pastures that look just like that. I identified them earlier in the summer. Either way, it won't be very palatable until next summer.


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## Allen W

Agmantoo and ycanchu2 you might take a look at the bluestems listed here and see if any of them are what you have. http://www.noble.org/apps/plantimagegallery/PlantList.aspx?PlantTypeID=2&IndexType=CommonName Sorry but the pictures aren't the best in my opinion.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> _ycanchu2_
> Any idea as to why the cattle do not like the bluestem? Normally my animals will pick through some plants, like pigweed, horse nettle and Virginia creeper, that I never thought they would eat.


My cattle like it ok in the spring and summer, it was all I had on about 25 acres last year that I had overgrazed last winter and early spring. When it starts heading out is when they don't like it too much. There is another grass that grows about the same time frame, but doesn't have the burgundy silky seed head, its probably in the same family, palatabilty is about the same as the other. Hay from it isn't the most palatable, but they will eat it, if hungry.
I don't think there is much worry about it taking over a pasture, mostly in overgrazed situations, where other grasses like fescue and orchardgrass have died out, or have become very sluggish is where I'm seeing it.


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## ATPFARM

Wow, what a thread.... finally finished it...great info...thanks to all for their contributions...
I see its been since the 31 since anyone has posted.....
how's the stock piles holding up,,?


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, with all the rain we are finally getting how do you deal with the areas that the cattle mess up. I know you reseed but don't you typically have to wait quite a while before they can graze that area again?


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## baseball

Great thread. 

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed, especially agmantoo.

I have learned so much. I plan on reading through it again and taking notes this time.

agmantoo, when you get a chance, can you look at the farm I purchased and help me with the layout?

I'm wanting to get started on the electric fence so that by spring I can purchase my first cattle and get to rotating.

Thank You


----------



## agmantoo

Baseball,

Welcome to the site as a member! Thanks for the kind words.

I will give you my version of a layout but I need more info. Will this be a cow/calf operation and if so what do you expect to be the carrying capacity?

Since I do not see any footage on the aerial view what is the approximate acreage that will be grazed?

Do you expect to use the area and the buildings behind the home to hold and work the cattle? Where will the loading area be?

I see the ponds and will they be used for watering or will you have another source?

What agriculture growing zone is this farm located?

Shade seems to be sparse. IMO cattle need to have access to shade.


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## baseball

I plan on raising grass finished beef direct to market.

Carrying capacity is unknown to me.

I planned to start with some steers that I could run through until the beginning of winter. This will be my first time raising cattle and I thought it might be good to start out not having to worry about winter the first year.

After that I would like to buy some good heifers and start breeding to produce my own supply of steers for grass fed beef direct to market.

Total acreage is 80. The two fenced in areas in the northeast corner are approximately 5 acres a piece. Grazing acreage would be roughly 70 acres.

I am planning on using the fenced in area by the barns as a handling area and loading area.

The ponds will be my water source.

I'm located in northeast Oklahoma zone 6

I'm open to ideas on how to fix my shade problem.

The property has been used for horses until now.


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## baseball

I also plan on running water lines from the pond to the paddocks. I'm hoping to have a portable water tank moved to each new area daily.


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## agmantoo

I plan on raising grass finished beef direct to market.

Carrying capacity is unknown to me. 

Get with your agriculture extension folks and ask them what the carrying capacity is for your area.



I planned to start with some steers that I could run through until the beginning of winter. This will be my first time raising cattle and I thought it might be good to start out not having to worry about winter the first year.

When your paddocks have mature forage established your proposal on getting stock and avoiding carrying them into Winter is IMO a sound approach.


After that I would like to buy some good heifers and start breeding to produce my own supply of steers for grass fed beef direct to market.

Getting animals that will flourish on your place is paramount. Having grass and legumes that are productive on your place is also essential. 



Total acreage is 80. The two fenced in areas in the northeast corner are approximately 5 acres a piece. Grazing acreage would be roughly 70 acres.

The layout looks like an easy adaption for rotational grazing

I am planning on using the fenced in area by the barns as a handling area and loading area.

That sounds like a good idea

The ponds will be my water source.
OK

I'm located in northeast Oklahoma zone 6

Zone 6 is cooler than here at my place. Fescue should produce very well there. I know of no forage that will provide more grazing over the various seasons of the year.

I'm open to ideas on how to fix my shade problem.

I have no quick solution that is justifiable dollar wise.

The property has been used for horses until now. 

Horses are very destructive to quality forage production.

Total acreage is 80. The two fenced in areas in the northeast corner are approximately 5 acres a piece. Grazing acreage would be roughly 70 acres.
Depending on the carrying capacity that acreage should carry a nice herd for meat production on a moderate scale.

I am planning on using the fenced in area by the barns as a handling area and loading area. 

From the pic it appears to be a ready built pen area. 

The ponds will be my water source.

Keep the water clean and that should work. You do not want the calves to drink contaminated water.


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## ATPFARM

Would some of you guys share a drawing of your livestock handling corral/barn for working your cattle.
please include what you would do different..... or just draw your dream cattle management system.
thanks,.


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## baseball

agmantoo, thank you for the information. 

What's the best fence to use around ponds?


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## agmantoo

baseball

My inclination would be to go with 3 strands of high tensile. I suggest waiting until I have time to mark up a recommendation for the paddocks to see if we can incorporate the permanent partitions with the pond isolation fencing.


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## agmantoo

ATPFARM

See post #2180 here
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ca...erting-rotational-grazing-73.html#post5912173


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## agmantoo

Moved the cattle this afternoon and hung around a while to observe the herd. Weather was overcast but otherwise was great for near the middle of Jan. The main herd is in the foreground eating stockpiled fescue and the calves are grazing ahead on the better forage. I rode the 4 wheeler over the farm to get a better idea of whether I have enough stockpiled forage to make it through the Winter. I certainly do not have a surplus. The drought hit hard here!


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## ATPFARM

agmantoo said:


> ATPFARM
> 
> See post #2180 here
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ca...erting-rotational-grazing-73.html#post5912173


That's what i was hunting... thanks...
couple of questions....
1. To give me a sense of scale....what is the average gate length in
the working corrals.?
2. Is this management system attached to the livestock barn?
Thanks agmantoo


----------



## agmantoo

ATPFARM said:


> That's what i was hunting... thanks...
> couple of questions....
> 1. To give me a sense of scale....what is the average gate length in
> the working corrals.?
> 
> The line sketch is not to scale. The guardrail working corral itself is 48' by 48' on most of the perimeter. Guardrail comes in lengths of 12 1/2ft and 24 ft. I tried to minimize waste and cutting. When I built the corral I had less cattle and the corral pens are now too small to handle the herd. That is why I had to build the holding area where I used recycled 6 ft high chain link fence. I now cut 12 to 15 animals out of the herd and process them then repeat the sequence. This actually works OK. Initially the plan was to load animals being shipped through the loading chute but reverted to using the holding pen to mass load. The trailer is backed into the holding pen, both rear doors on the trailer are swung open and the animals going to the sale are crowded into the trailer in a single effort. As soon as a couple animals enter the trailer the rest simply follow with a little urging. The ramp for the trailer was form to whee the trailer is nearly bumping the ground at the loading doors. The cattle only have to step up just inches.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Is this management system attached to the livestock barn?
> 
> Living in zone 7 there is no requirement for a barn. I do have an equipment storage shed where I store emergency hay in one end. I have 16 days worth of hay on hand.


 I know this explanation is not that clear but possible it may help.


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## BlueHillsFarm

@baseball

Does your state have a cost share program? In Virginia the state pays for 75% of cross fencing for rotational grazing, stream and pond exclusion, well development and livestock waterers. Around here they use the top bid for the benchmark so often 75% is enough to pay lower bidding contractors for the entire job. This is just VA though, I have no idea about your state.


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## ufo_chris

Agmantoo, you know how you say a cow grazes for 45 min. twice a day, and gets enough, do you know how long that would be for hay? Feeding Hay right now and I'm pretty stingy with it, this is just for maintaining. I just put a few piles for them since I only have a few but the other day I was home and checked and they were still eating 3 hrs later (this was a 1x /day feeding) so I'm thinking that's too much? 
I know about the 3 % rule, but I think you time allotment makes sense.
This is just grass hay with a little alfalfa .Highlands, they usually get by on less.
Don't want to starve them but I also want to conserve some hay if I can in case we have a long winter.
Thanks!


----------



## agmantoo

_ufo_chris_

I recently read that the amount of hay that a cow can get by on if far less than originally thought. According to the article in periods of sever drought and nearly non existing hay it is possible to maintain a cow on 5 lbs of hay and 8 lbs of good protein. Obviously I cannot substantiate the correctness. My observation is that if a cow is in body condition score 5 and in zone 7 she can maintain condition on less than 3% of her weight provided the forage has adequate protein. I am not into abusing my animals but I do know in nature that each day is not always a picnic. As I keep mentioning my forage following the drought we had is limited. To get through this Winter I am having to manage what I allocate closely. Rather than try to determine the amount of forage I watch the herd. If when I go to feed they are quietly and patiently standing waiting on "their man" to arrive, I feel comfortable in that what I allocated is adequate. If the herd is overly anxious to get onto the new allocation or if they are bawling I know they are underfed. Cattle that are accustomed to rotational grazing appear to me to be calmer, more pacified than cattle on hay. When I fed hay it was a hassle to get the tractor into the area with the cattle. The animals would be rushing the tractor and crowding the bales. To answer your question. Reduce the amount of hay fed to about 2 percent of the average animals weight. When you put out the hay you absolutely must spread the hay to where each animal has access and no boss animal can hoard the hay. If you do not do this a timid animal will not get its share. The animals must waste nearly none of the hay. Wasted hay cost just as much as the hay that was eaten. Make certain that your provided hay for the day will last at least 90 minutes of steady eating. Once you start this, observe the animals closely each day. They will let you know if they are not getting enough hay. Your weather is colder than mine so you may have to feed more. Do not let their body condition score drop below 4. Let me know how this goes. Body condition score info... http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/400/400-795/400-795.html


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## ufo_chris

Thanks Agmantoo,
I actually usually only feed 20lb per grown animal, so around 2%. I always put out 1 more pile as there are animals so they all get their fair share . They usually switch piles a few times.
They actually wait patiently for me because I have to pull it off a round bale and it takes a little time ,there isn't usually any mooing going on ,so I figured I must be giving enough but was wondering if it's too much.
I have them in 2 separate pastures, ally in the middle, and they are all pretty patient even when I put my piles in the one side at first.
So you are saying it's basically the same time amount as on pasture ,90 minutes for the daily ration.
These Highlands are kinda hard to watch for body score because of the hair, but every now and then I feel the ones that let me to make sure.
I really do think they get by with a lot less than other cattle.
It was 65F here yesterday and close a few days prior ,today 32F and will stay colder.
I was hoping for a longer warm snap to grow some grass lol, but the snow just melted and now it's cold again 
Thanks so much, 
Chris


----------



## baseball

BlueHillsFarm

I'm not sure.

I must say though that I'm not a fan of having the government involved any more than they already are in my life.

I'll look some more into it.

Thank You


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## ycanchu2

BlueHillsFarm said:


> @baseball
> 
> Does your state have a cost share program? In Virginia the state pays for 75% of cross fencing for rotational grazing, stream and pond exclusion, well development and livestock waterers. Around here they use the top bid for the benchmark so often 75% is enough to pay lower bidding contractors for the entire job. This is just VA though, I have no idea about your state.


 They have an EQUIP program here in Ky. that pays a cost share on waterers, fencing off ponds, electric fencing for rotational grazing. I don't know how extensive they will let you get on the fencing as far as real intensive grazing. The NRCS wants to promote IRG, but they just want you to divide your farm up into 5 or so sections. 
I had a 25 acre field that they wanted me to put an electric fence down the middle of it and that was it and a waterer in the center of it. 1/2 of the field had no shade whatsoever! They are pretty archaic in their approach IMO.


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## Alaska

stay away from the government welfare programs it will be the death of our nation. They have a carrot for everyone.
You can do it without the gov and will be thankful in the long run.


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## BlueHillsFarm

baseball said:


> BlueHillsFarm
> 
> I'm not sure.
> 
> I must say though that I'm not a fan of having the government involved any more than they already are in my life.
> 
> I'll look some more into it.
> 
> Thank You


True, the way we figure is if we must pay taxes we should get as much out of the government as possible. I want to government to work for me. Any questions, just ask. I'm a fence contractor.


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## Gripshover

I live in KY and have applied 3 years in a row for assistance. Waterer, fencing to keep cattle out of creeks, livestock handling equipment. Every year its the same thing, sorry you didnt qualify for any assistance this year. Its supposed to be they give you half up to $5,000 but for some reason I dont qualify. Probably Im because iIm not their buddy.

Leo


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## ramiller5675

BlueHillsFarm said:


> True, the way we figure is if we must pay taxes we should get as much out of the government as possible. I want to government to work for me. Any questions, just ask. I'm a fence contractor.


Nothing to do with MiG, but relying on a grant to set up your grazing operation is not a matter of trying to "get as much out of the government as possible".

That grant money is taken from another taxpayer and given to you (of course the government always takes it's cut of the money extorted before it gives it to you). Even if they borrow that money or print it before they "give" it to you, they are still stealing the value of the money I have when they do that song and dance. 

With all the talk about having a "sustainable" this and that, it ain't sustainable to rob Peter to pay Paul while skimming a little off the top.


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## ycanchu2

Gripshover said:


> I live in KY and have applied 3 years in a row for assistance. Waterer, fencing to keep cattle out of creeks, livestock handling equipment. Every year its the same thing, sorry you didnt qualify for any assistance this year. Its supposed to be they give you half up to $5,000 but for some reason I dont qualify. Probably Im because iIm not their buddy.
> 
> Leo


 I would try ...if you haven't already to get in on the Phase 1 tobacco Ag improvement program( money paid to the states in the tobacco settlement) that most counties have once a year. Here in my county they just divide the money between everyone who signs up, so everybody gets some instead of a few getting a lot. How ever they do seem to want to keep it a secret, so you really have to have your ear to the ground. They have federal programs, state programs, but a lot of it is just timing, some I;ve qualified for and some I haven't.


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## Alaska

This could be a whole different thread and I will leave it alone in this great thread with one last statement , just say no


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## BMCC

Alaska, I agree 100%, lets keep this great thread going about rotational grazing. 

http://


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## randyandmegs

I totally disagree but if its your choice not to take the money then by all means don't. I am one of the recepients of that tobacco settlement grant money and had it not been for it and a cost share from soil and water and being a younger farmer it would have taken me 15-20 years (if not longer) working as a Paramedic which is my other full time job to get to where I am now if I would have ever gotten this far and with my kids being the fifth generation of this farm I made the choice to to accept the assitance to ensure this farm which currently loses money year after year will be here for my grandchildren one day. Im also sure the families down stream are happy that our cattle no longer using the creeks as their place to defacate and urinate and our once severe erosion problems on our sloped land is pretty much non existent now.


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> I totally disagree but if its your choice not to take the money then by all means don't. I am one of the recepients of that tobacco settlement grant money and had it not been for it and a cost share from soil and water and being a younger farmer it would have taken me 15-20 years (if not longer) working as a Paramedic which is my other full time job to get to where I am now if I would have ever gotten this far and with my kids being the fifth generation of this farm I made the choice to to accept the assitance to ensure this farm which currently loses money year after year will be here for my grandchildren one day. Im also sure the families down stream are happy that our cattle no longer using the creeks as their place to defacate and urinate and our once severe erosion problems on our sloped land is pretty much non existent now.


 For those who don't know. The tobacco settlement money came from the Big Tobacco companies...not the government.....The phase 2 money was paid directly to the tobacco farmers for their tobacco bases, which ended the the gov. price support program. Now anyone can grow what they want if they think they can sell it. the tobacco co. can pay whatever they want. That was half of the settlement money and Phase 1 was the other half that went to the states to use for helping farmers get in to something else with their farm, like cattle, goats, grapes you name it just some kind of diversity to help tobacco dependent farmers survive.


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## Awnry Abe

Not to change the subject, but ....


Baseball, did you notice that Casper the friendly ghost is looking at your pond? Does that change your crossfence layout any?


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## WJMartin

BMCC - when did you take that pic? What is growing?


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## Alaska

Anybody out there in central texas do rotational grazing? What type of grass?


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## BMCC

WJMartin - Photo was taken April 17, 2012, grass is mixture of annual ryegrass and wheat. This pasture was rotated thru 5 times from Thanksgiving Day 2011, until the photo was taken.


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## WJMartin

BMCC - thanks, that explains alot. I was thinking, wow, where did all that green come from this time of year with no rain. lol where I'm at even the wheat fields are looking sparse.


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## SteveO

Not to change the subject but Agman have you heard from Godsapeach on her progress. Afterall she started this thread. And thanks again for helping me get started. As you stated way back i need more land to make it work. I need to double what I have to extend the rotational cycle between graizing. Until then Graze when possible feed when not.
Steve


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## MarkM

Should I graze this lower?

Pre-graze









Post-graze


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## Gabriel

I wouldn't graze it lower than that. You must leave enough leaf for photosynthesis to occur, which it does with Fescue even in winter. Also, the cattle's rumen has time to adjust to the different quality of the lower level forage.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, what minerals do you provide? Also can you look at post 2550 and advise?


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs said:


> Agmantoo, with all the rain we are finally getting how do you deal with the areas that the cattle mess up. I know you reseed but don't you typically have to wait quite a while before they can graze that area again?[/QUOTE
> 
> I do reseed as you stated. My reseeding is not much more than waiting until I can either frost seed/broadcast seed over the area after pulling a drag harrow to smooth the ground. If I miss that opportunity I will drill seed into the damaged area. It is surprising how much of the damaged existing grass will recover. When to graze is more of an experience call and need for forage. If I get as much as 50% recovery of the original stand I will graze the reseeded area without regard to the new grass from the recent seeding effort. Here the reseeded grass will often perish if not planted in the Fall. When Fall arrives I will look at the area again and determine if I will reseed. I know that if I have a wet Winter I will have areas that damage so I do attempt to utilize these soggy paddocks based on weather conditions. I try to reserve the southern and eastern facing hillsides where water runoff is greatest for these anticipated wet periods.
> 
> Regarding minerals...at one time I was buying minerals from different suppliers, keeping the labels for comparison trying to make a determination as to where the best value existed. The only conclusion I came to was that there is a big difference in price and content. The salt content in a bag could constitute as much as 25% of the weight down to as low of 10%. Vigortone had the least amount of salt but was the most costly at more than twice the price of Deal Rite. I settled on Deal Rite since it contained more phosphorus than the other competitively priced minerals.


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## thestartupman

I am hoping someone can help me with a problem I am having with HT wire. My property is not completely flat in too many areas. It has swells, and low areas. I am having trouble being able too have enough slack in the HT wire to allow it to be raised enough for cattle to be able to walk under it. Does anyone have any kind of solution to this? Is this just a lack of me knowing what I am doing? I have some areas that are very loose, and other areas that I have probably over tightened, but none of it seems to feel right when it comes too raising the wire. One other question about raising the wire. Do you ever worry that the cattle will knock over the HT wire that is being raised with the PVC pipe, and then would no longer be able to get to water?


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## agmantoo

Where you do not have enough slack to raise the HT wire simply detach the HT wire from an adjacent post. With the wire not being held by two posts you should be able to raise the wire higher. If you do not need as much feeding area opened by having two wires free to be raised use the polywire to "funnel" from the two posts to a narrow paddock. I have a V cut in the top of the PVC pipe and the HT wire stays in place. If you are concerned with the HT wire coming out just drill a small cross hole across the V and insert a "hair pin/cotter pin" to block the exit of the HT wire.


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## ycanchu2

maybe a spring at one end might help


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## thestartupman

I am more concerned with the cattle knocking the PVC pipe over, no so much with the wire coming off the PVC pipe. Agmantoo, are you using spring tensioners on your HT wire? Maybe that is what I am needing to get enough slack to raise the wire?


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## agmantoo

I do not use the tensioners. Are you placing the PVC pipe over the line post?


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## thestartupman

In the areas I have tried, I couldn't get it high enough to put it over the line post. Another question I guess I have to clearify things. What is the maximum distance you have between end, or corner post?


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## agmantoo

End to corner post is an H configured braced anchoring design. The horizontal brace is roughly 10 feet long. I install the PVC pipe to hold the single HT wire for the cattle to enter/exit the paddock on a line post. Line posts on the permanent single strand wire for the paddocks are spaced on 60 ft centers. I remain unclear on exactly what you are asking.


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## thestartupman

Wow, I remain unclear on what I am trying to ask. I thought you used single post instead of H braced post when you are using single strand HT wire. Let me ask my question in a way I hope we will both understand. If I have a field that is 800' long, and I am wanting to run a single strand wire the length of it. Can you explian in detail how you would currently recommend setting it up. I understand that I am looking over post from years ago, and that you might have changed what works best for you. I am not trying to be a pain about the things I am asking, I am just a rookie that is trying to mimick the things you are doing, because you have convinced me that it is the best may to manage grasses, and cattle. Thanks again for your help.


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## ycanchu2

You need a solid wood post on each end of that 800' run. The distance doesn't matter, you just need something solid on each end. I use the insulated ratchet tighteners on one end to tighten the wire with, they are made by gallagher.
I use 5' steel posts driven every 60' with pin lock post connnectors to attach the wire and about a 3 1/2 to 4' 2" pvc pipe over the post to raise the wire on to for the cattle to go under.
As Agmantoo said somewhere in this thread....you should be using 170,000 psi HT...it flexes more than the 200,000 psi HT. If its not flexing enough to go over the wire you may need a spring tensioner on one end or you have it too tight.
If you are using the fiberglass posts then i would assume you would need about a 6' pvc to go over the pipe to raise the wire.
Thats my 2 cents.


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## thestartupman

Ycanchu2, you may have given me a clue to my problems. I will have to check, but I think I might be using 200,000 psi wire. That might be why I do not have enough stretch in the line to raise it high enough for the cattle to walk under. Thanks again for all the help that is on here. It really helps to have the knowledge of others that are already doing the things that others like myself are trying to do.


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## agmantoo

_thestartupman_

Ycanchu2 understood your question better than I did IMO. I do have a single wire and substantial individual posts at the ends of the single permanent paddock partitions. My corner posts are arranged in the H configuration. If you cannot get the partition wire high enough for the cattle to go under then you have too much tension on the wire. It doesn't matter if this wire sags a bit. If you want the wire taut and still be able to raise the wire get springs off a kids trampoline and use them on each end. The tension springs sold for the HT wire are too strong to get much flex.


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## ycanchu2

There is a pretty significant difference in the 200,000psi vs. the 170,000psi when it comes to flexibility. I accidentally put up some of the 200k before I realised it and it is much tougher to raise up if its very tight at all.


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## agmantoo

I was on the back portion of the farm this afternoon at a paddock I grazed in December. With some rain and a warming period here in Feb. I have noticed that the fescue is coming out of dormancy. Since I am short of stockpiled fescue I was overjoyed seeing this new growth emerging and I just wanted to share the view


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> I was on the back portion of the farm this afternoon at a paddock I grazed in December. With some rain and a warming period here in Feb. I have noticed that the fescue is coming out of dormancy. Since I am short of stockpiled fescue I was overjoyed seeing this new growth emerging and I just wanted to share the view


When will you start grazing the new grass?


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## Gripshover

agmantoo: Do you put much fertilizer on or just mostly lime to get PH rite?


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## agmantoo

Gripshover

I take soil samples annually to know where the PH stands. Lime is the best source for a quick correction. Chicken litter is applied from a hatching egg operation and the litter is available about once per year. Layer house chicken litter contains calcium to aid in egg shell development. The only problem is that one layer house will yield only enough litter to spread over 20% of the farm each year. I do not apply chemical fertilizer unless I have a situation such as establishing new pasture or I am trying to recover from a drought. It has been rewarding to see how over time the pastures have held using mostly natural fertilizer. I attribute the condition of my pastures to not using herbicide, growing legumes with the grass, encouraging dung beetles, frequent mowing and minimizing soil compaction and managing the grazing. No hay is baled and all cattle manure remains on the farm. My last purchase of chemical fertilizer was, by guess, 5 years ago and I still have some of that in storage.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo,
I looked at Deal Rite and they appear to be just local to your area. What are the percentages on your minerals mainly Phos and Mag?


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## agmantoo

Deal Rite
Phosphorus 4%
Magnesium 14%

I sometimes buy from G & M Milling
their percentage is 
Phosphorus 4%
Magnesium 10%

PS....I am of the opinion that cattle that are rotational grazed are not an dependent on Mag as those that are fed hay. Bloat has never been an issue at my place.


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## randyandmegs

Is that your standard year round or do you make changes for the spring green up?

Thanks Again


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## agmantoo

Standard year round


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## WJMartin

We got a nice 1/2 inch rain and 2 -3 inches of snow today, took a short walk in the pasture and behold some clover I planted last spring is up, so excited to see some green. It's been awhile.


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## agmantoo

WJMartim
Water makes for excitement for all of us pasture growers for certain. In my area it is approaching time to be preparing for early planting. Prior to the last rain we got, I started getting ready for reseeding thin spots and trampled areas. If anyone has any heavy thatched areas leftover from Winter grazing it is IMO time to get rid of the thatch. I forced the herd to graze some fescue that had too much thatch remaining so that I could reseed the weak areas. Here is a pic of the process. I know the drag harrow is worn but I have not found a replacement that I like better than what is left of old faithful.


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## CedarMoore

Agman, what do attribute the reasons that you never had a bloat problem? Do you manage your areas? Limit the time the cattle are on clover? Not let the cattle on clover early in the day? I know form your posts that you have a lot of clovers in your pastures. I never had a bloat problem until last year until I lost one cow due to clover consumption. This was a big cow that would get too fat during the spring and I was planning to cull her, but waited too late. I must say that I am a little worried about this spring.


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore

I can only speculate on why I have not had a bloat occurrence. My pastures are a mix of grass and legumes. I do know that I have an excess of legumes and that the legumes at times overwhelm the grass. As you may know I do not feed hay unless there is an extended drought and the grass suffers extensively. Normal weather and the cattle are on the pastures 24/7/365. They never have a withdrawal craving for forage and their gut is conditioned to process the grass/legume diet. I move the animals daily and I allocate the amount of forage they are to consume in a 24 hour period. Calves are permitted to graze ahead of the herd so the calves get all the forage they desire. The cattle get adequate forage to maintain a body condition score of 5 to 5+. I do not want my cattle fat. I just want them to maintain condition and to breed back within 45 days of calving. Bloat prevention IMO is a matter of management.


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## randyandmegs

Agman, What can I do about the cows knocking down their gate hotwire from rubbing on the post? This started about 6 weeks ago when one or more started using the post as a rub which eventually loosens up the tpost in this saturated soil. I thought about taping some polywire near the bottom of the pvc just above where it sits on the tpost then run it up and connect to the hotwire above. My concern is making the "gatepost" hot with it being their access from the lane to the paddock.


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## agmantoo

_randyandmegs_

I seldom have any animals rubbing against the PVC pipe but I know that happens. Your idea of making the PVC pipe electrically hot should work. I would attempt to drill a few holes in the pipe and then attach the polywire using the holes and then spiral the polywire similar to a barber pole leaving a short length of polywire at the top to attach to the HT hot wire. If you could locate an alligator clamp that would not corrode that may work to attach the polywire to the HT wire.
PS have you checked your animals for lice?


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## randyandmegs

I have not. I did notice a patch on one cow about the size of a quarter that was bare. I did drench them with Cydectin in October. How do you check?


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## agmantoo

Here is a site that will give more info than I could ever provide. I think your animals may have lice and this is the time of year that they will have heavy infestations.
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/Beef Cattle Handbook/Lice.pdf


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## randyandmegs

I'm going to post some pictures shortly to make sure. I really do not want to use any chemicals especially Ivermectin due to what it does to the dung beetles which we have plenty of in warmer weather. It may not be an issue using it this far before the dung beetles arrive. One thing I can also think of that I did was add a longer bolt that I didn't cut off running through my PVC pipe due to having shorter tpost in my stockpiled fescue field. That could have caught that cow causing that patch but I'm afraid your diagnosis is most likely accurate. When building your herd how did you get to the point of not using wormers etc?


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## Gabriel

Mark Bader recommended using sulfur in some feed to help reduce mites.


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## randyandmegs

Pictures attached of the heifer in question. None of the other 9 area showing any symptoms. Should I treat them all? Since I have already used Cydectin in the last 6 months I didn't want to use it again but also hate using the Ivermectin for the reasons above. What do you think?


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## agmantoo

Obviously the animal is having lice creating a need to scratch. Once the animals shed and sun heat comes with the change of season the lice will cease to live except on the underside of the calves. In the meanwhile I suggest a limited use of this product as a pour on. http://www.jefferspet.com/permectrin-cds-pour-on-insecticide/camid/LIV/cp/14046/


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## majiksummer

What is the average annual rainfall for your area?


----------



## randyandmegs

55-60" a year on average. We have been much wetter than normal lately. Agman am I correct in thinking you do not use anything on your cattle, how did you get to that point if so? Through strict culling practices? Do I need to treat all the heifers or just the one?


----------



## agmantoo

_randyandmegs_,

I treat on only as needed basis. Cattle will have a parasite load but as they age (6+ months old) they should be able to tolerate and have some natural resistance. I attended a seminar in Virginia this month and the discussion regarding flies and parasites concluded in NOT to treat and to cull those that could not tolerate or ward off parasites on their own. Out of 100 brood stock I would think I treated no more than 2 last year. No one in India treats any of those cattle and they have lots of them. I would probably treat the animal you showed the pic of because because the parasites came with her. As you get into rotational grazing and fine tune your operation I believe you will see a reduction in the need to treat.


----------



## randyandmegs

Able to treat her today. She is not real pettish but not wild either. I duck tapped a cup with the chemical in it to a long narrow board and fed them a little grain which got them bunched up and reached out with the pole to pour it down her back.


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## kickinbull

Gabriel said:


> Mark Bader recommended using sulfur in some feed to help reduce mites.


Next time might try dusting with some Diatomaceous Earth. works good and doesn't harm good bugs or worms.


----------



## majiksummer

randyandmegs said:


> 55-60" a year on average.


Hmmm, has anyone seen IRG done where it is significantly dryer? We get approximately 14" or so yearly plus snow, no where near as much rain as you get. Any ideas?


----------



## SCRancher

I imagine you would have to simply have MUCH more acres per cow then we who get 40+ inches of rain a year.


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## Gabriel

majiksummer said:


> Hmmm, has anyone seen IRG done where it is significantly dryer? We get approximately 14" or so yearly plus snow, no where near as much rain as you get. Any ideas?


I haven't seen it in person, but do know some that do it. The pictures they've sent me show just as much improvement in their climate as in a temperate climate. The allotment is larger and the recovery times are longer, but yes, it works.

May I suggest that the better term is not IRG, but MIG? The grazing and rotation may or may not be intensive, but the management should always be intensive! The problem is that there is no set formula to apply and when someone new to the idea tries it, they rotate on a set time/space pattern and then claim it doesn't work. Some call it HHDPG (holistic high density planned grazing), but I think that still falls under MIG and MIG is alot easier to explain. :icecream:


----------



## ycanchu2

MIG is a term that Allan Nation uses. But I have read his books and don't agree with everything he says.
He says you should apply 40# of actual N after every rotation. I tried that a few years ago on a small farm I had at the time. The second year after I applied it once I decided to quit doing that, and after the next rotation when I didn't apply the N the grass started turning yellow it looked sick as if it had become addicted to it.
He says you should cut and bale any paddocks that gets away from you or you don't need, even if its thin and to not let it lay.
He also says that if you are a cow/calf operation MIG is not even worth doing.
This is all from his book.... Quality Pasture.
I had a question about something in the book once and contacted the magazine....The Stockman Grass Farmer and they wouldn't give me an answer, they said I needed to subscribe to the SGF Magazine and they would use my question in one of thier issues.
I think he/they are all about selling stuff.


----------



## randyandmegs

I like to describe to people what I am doing is MRG managed rotational grazing. Once my herd size increase I may change to MIG.


----------



## randyandmegs

Btw my grandpa did turn the cows over to me and first thing I did was load the trailer full of cull cows that went to Chesnee last night. That was the first of at least 2 loads


----------



## Gabriel

ycanchu2 said:


> MIG is a term that Allan Nation uses. But I have read his books and don't agree with everything he says.
> He says you should apply 40# of actual N after every rotation. I tried that a few years ago on a small farm I had at the time. The second year after I applied it once I decided to quit doing that, and after the next rotation when I didn't apply the N the grass started turning yellow it looked sick as if it had become addicted to it.
> He says you should cut and bale any paddocks that gets away from you or you don't need, even if its thin and to not let it lay.
> He also says that if you are a cow/calf operation MIG is not even worth doing.
> This is all from his book.... Quality Pasture.
> I had a question about something in the book once and contacted the magazine....The Stockman Grass Farmer and they wouldn't give me an answer, they said I needed to subscribe to the SGF Magazine and they would use my question in one of thier issues.
> I think he/they are all about selling stuff.


He may be all about sales, I don't know. I do know that he didn't coin the term, Jim Gerrish did. I disagree with much of the advice you are saying he gave... but none of that has any bearing on the phrase, I don't think. In any case, I didn't mean to make a mountain out of what is basically a mole hill.


----------



## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> He may be all about sales, I don't know. I do know that he didn't coin the term, Jim Gerrish did. I disagree with much of the advice you are saying he gave... but none of that has any bearing on the phrase, I don't think. In any case, I didn't mean to make a mountain out of what is basically a mole hill.


I tried rotational grazing several years ago by the grazing gospel according to Allan Nation. I just found myself working myself to death in a very complicated system. I guess I just mention it because I'm sure there are several people out there like me searching for info on IRG,MIG and reading lots of books and materials on the subject.
There is more commonsense practical, simplistic advice right here FREE in this thread than in most books on the subject....thats not to say there aren't any good books on the subject.


----------



## Ironbutt

agmantoo said:


> _randyandmegs_,
> 
> I treat on only as needed basis. Cattle will have a parasite load but as they age (6+ months old) they should be able to tolerate and have some natural resistance. I attended a seminar in Virginia this month and the discussion regarding flies and parasites concluded in NOT to treat and to cull those that could not tolerate or ward off parasites on their own. Out of 100 brood stock I would think I treated no more than 2 last year. No one in India treats any of those cattle and they have lots of them. I would probably treat the animal you showed the pic of because because the parasites came with her. As you get into rotational grazing and fine tune your operation I believe you will see a reduction in the need to treat.


I have been following this thread from the beginning and recently signed up as I use alot of the things I have learned on this site.So I am new and wanted to add some new information. My ag-extension agent visited my farm one day and suggested that I spray WD-40 on my cows that it would keep the flies off their backs much better than poison sprays or drenches. I haven't done this as i am skeptical but have purchased a gallon from agric -supply to try this spring. Has anyone else heard of using this? My 2 cents worth.


----------



## jminton

Agmantoo,

I have read this thread from the beginning and I am amazed at the information you have shared and as helpful it has been. I have 120 acres and around 40 cows. I have been working with the USDA on cross fencing before I found this thread. It has been worth the read to learn from yall and what not to do. I was wanting to use lanes in my pasture as well, but after visiting with the usda on a farm visit he said the lanes would be a disaster on my place due to the slope and as many wet areas I have. I have to agree. It would have been nice to have lanes, but I will just have to make due. I was able to make it through the drought the past couple of years pretty easily and was still able to cut almost 100 bales as well each year. I bushhoged the rest to help clean it up and I was bogging down a 90 HP tractor with 10' bushog in places. After doing that and visiting with the usda, they have said I can run 80 head on my place (with time) with rotational grazing. I was skeptical of that number until reading this thread. I will not be able to build my herd to that number this year and I will slowly add to it to see how it goes. I as well want to retain my heifers in the coming years and that is were I have a question. How do you retain heifers in your herd without rotating bulls every year?


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## CedarMoore

Agman, thanks for the response. I am not giving up on legumes, I have seeded some this month. Think I will fed the cows some hay before turning them in on heavy clover this year so they won't be really hungry when they start in on the new pastures.


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## Gabriel

http://agriculturalinsights.com/ has some posts (and a video) on grazing in very dry climates.


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## Gabriel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W6HGKSvjk5Q Good video by Greg Judy. Long, but well worth it if you can spare the bandwidth.


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## mulemom

New to Homestead but I've read this thread from the beginning. Incredible amount of good ideas and advice here. It has made me rethink my plans for rehabbing pastures, was going to plow but Agmantoo made such a good case for not doing that we've changed our minds. I do have one question for those here who raise cattle. Do you have a problem with coyotes and baby calves? So far our cows and calves have been close to the barn near houses so no problems. We'd like to move their pasture more to the middle of the farm but they would be out of our direct sight if we do. Though we haven't seen coyotes we do hear them close by periodically and I'm worried they might bother the calves. Agmantoo i read that you had a mammoth jenny and her foal and wondered if she was there for protection? Thanks to everyone for the great thread.


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## agmantoo

*I have been following this thread from the beginning and recently signed up as I use alot of the things I have learned on this site.So I am new and wanted to add some new information. My ag-extension agent visited my farm one day and suggested that I spray WD-40 on my cows that it would keep the flies off their backs much better than poison sprays or drenches. I haven't done this as i am skeptical but have purchased a gallon from agric -supply to try this spring. Has anyone else heard of using this? My 2 cents worth.

The use of WD-40 is new to me. Personally I would not use it. Once the animal is sprayed with the product I feel the contents would be absorbed through the skin into the blood stream. I think that the cattle should be able to build a resistance to the flies. Those animals that seem to host parasites are slowly being culled at my place. I also only worm the animals that cannot tolerate some parasite load.
*


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## agmantoo

*Do you have a problem with coyotes and baby calves? So far our cows and calves have been close to the barn near houses so no problems. We'd like to move their pasture more to the middle of the farm but they would be out of our direct sight if we do. Though we haven't seen coyotes we do hear them close by periodically and I'm worried they might bother the calves. Agmantoo i read that you had a mammoth jenny and her foal and wondered if she was there for protection? Thanks to everyone for the great thread.

I no longer have the donkeys. The donkeys created more problems than the coyotes. I have never known the coyotes to kill a calf. I am aware that the coyotes will carry off a calf that is already dead. I do have a strong population of coyotes and I have killed 11 while I was deer hunting. If the cow is a decent protective mother she should be able to ward off a single coyote IMO. There is enough roadkill and wildlife to keep the coyotes fed around my location. If the coyotes were underfed I am unaware if they would kill a calf. My thoughts are they would. At this time my herd is nearly a mile away from the house and two heifers just calved. I am not concerned regarding the coyotes. There was a feral dog in the pasture yesterday and that does bother me. I took a gun with me today when I sent to relocate the herd to new grass. 
*


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## agmantoo

*How do you retain heifers in your herd without rotating bulls every year?

All registered stock originated from inbred stock. Culling is the key to success.

 * I do not fully understand the situation with my herd. Here is my opinion. I do not wean the heifers that I retain. The cow will do that prior to giving birth to the next calf. With the heifer on the cow I tend to believe that the heifer is slower to reach sexual maturity and is slower to go through a heat cycle. I do want my heifers to breed by 15 months of age but as long as they are around 70%+ of their to be weight at maturity I am satisfied. Using low birth weight bulls and only grass as feed the calves are usually small and seldom do I have any problems. With even a rare problem I still feel it is financially justifiable to have heifers to calve at 2 years of age. I market all heifers that have to be assisted while giving birth regardless. My goal is to never be a midwife to a cow!


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## mulemom

Thanks for the quick answer Agmantoo. Understand about the donkey's causing trouble. When we hear the coyotes it's always several so that's what has me concerned. We keep a couple mules with the old horses for protection but they don't like small animals of any kind so wouldn't be good with calves. Again thanks for the response.


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## gwithrow

coyotes and calves:

we are surrounded by coyote territory...we hear them often and very close by..many of them, and recently a neighbor stopped to tell me that they had lost a calf to coyote(s)....however this was a family who are trying to raise bottle calves and had not put them up for the night, since it was 'nice' out....

babies need supervision and there is nothing better than a mama....and even though my mama cows are gentle and easy to work with, as soon as a calf bawls, the big cows ALL come running...we vaccinated and tagged calves yesterday...a calm and not too stressful operation, however one calf just flipped out....and immediately the barn was encircled with nosy moms....and since that calf is a steer his fate is already sealed...even before we knew he was not so easy going.....

we calve generally in the fall, and I try to time the rotation so that the herd will be closer to home and not in the more remote pastures...I do think that since most of my cows will wander off to calve, that may be a vulnerable time...though once the calf is on the ground any disturbance will bring the others right away...also since their paddocks are not too big, the others are not usually very far away should help be needed...another good thing about rotational grazing...

we have donkeys, and they are watchful, but not always with the cows...the good thing with them, is that they are loud if they need help, very loud...and I have seen those jennys stand very quietly by watching a momma cow in labor.....


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## Allen W

The coyote question depends on your local coyotes, 95%+ of the time they aren't a problem They are very adaptable to there surroundings and generally rare for them to bother cattle.


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## ycanchu2

They say 2 or 3 coyotes can sound like a dozen.


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## WJMartin

We are finally recieving some very much needed moisture, of course, the western part of the state is having blizzard conditions. My poor cows and horse are sure they are dieing, when will this wet stuff go away! 
I have started fencing the cows into a small paddock area in anticipation of grass growing. We are still cutting out cedar trees, in the last year we estamate 1,000 trees and to make my rotational fencing easier I would like to take out about 50 more. Don't be impressed, we still need to remove 2,000 more just to clear out the pasture area. We are finally able to burn some of the cedar piles and I have to say it is very satisfying to see an area cleaned up.
The winter's work had OERB out to clean up an old oil well site, it has been clean, leveled, sprigged and fenced off so the grass has a chance to get established. Now to get the rest of the fencing complete.
Hoping we continue to have drought relieve and so thankful I now have some tools to help my pasture recover.


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## randyandmegs

We are the opposite this year and lately. We have gotten too much rain if there is such a thing. My cows are tearing up my lanes pretty bad but considering I have some type of water access every 400 ft it is my fault, I should have moved them to the next stockpiled fescue paddock that hasn't been grazed at all this year and kept them out of the lane all together and put my portable waterer in place with minerals in that tall grass. I will be paying the price tomorrow in the pouring rain making that happen. I have reseeded all the areas they are tearing up as they do it with fescue, rye and clover.


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> We are the opposite this year and lately. We have gotten too much rain if there is such a thing. My cows are tearing up my lanes pretty bad but considering I have some type of water access every 400 ft it is my fault, I should have moved them to the next stockpiled fescue paddock that hasn't been grazed at all this year and kept them out of the lane all together and put my portable waterer in place with minerals in that tall grass. I will be paying the price tomorrow in the pouring rain making that happen. I have reseeded all the areas they are tearing up as they do it with fescue, rye and clover.


i don't think a few tore up lanes will be a big deal, its better than the whole farm. I have afew tore up myself, its good feeling to be able to keep them off the rest of it. to not tear it up and prevent backgrazing which they will do a lot this time of year which is very detrimental to the grass.


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## agmantoo

Regarding the trampling damage to the existing forages......the short time for recovery will amaze those that have not witnessed how fast the areas will heal. Seed the areas now and do some minor surface smoothing. By late May you will be hard pressed to realize, by looking at the now damaged area, that the problem ever existed. Rotational grazed land has the ability to rebound that I have never observed in conventional pastures. The organic buildup, the microbes, the soil aeration, the lack of compaction, the fertility, the recovery/rest periods all contribute to the extraordinary occurrence.

If any of you have any thatch remaining in stockpiled forage that was not fed over Winter you need to put the cattle on it now. Let the animals tread the wasted dry matter into the soil. If there is no green showing near the root area some reseeding is in order.


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## CedarMoore

The cows are grazing the last of the stockpiled fescue. It will be done by March 8th. I was hoping to graze rye late February or early March, but it is still too short. I could flash graze some large areas for a few days, but from the recommendations on this thread I could damage the grass by grazing under 3 or 4 inches. So, I guess it is hay until Spring growth. Still learning, maybe next year,the cows can graze year round.


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore

If you have plenty of area that will come into production once the weather changes to promote growth just think through this. The burst of Spring growth will exceed your immediate needs shortly. Your needs would be best met by having this future grass timed to where the grass growth would be staggered. If you will graze the tallest of the rye grass obviously it will be stressed but with the withdrawal of the herd before it is grazed to the ground it will recover. Doing so will just delay the grazed area coming into production. Circumstances related to feeding cattle often mandate doing unusual means of dealing with nature. With my fescue forage I have taken the above steps a number of times to extend my grazing to get out of Winter. The impacted fescue is just slower to come into production and since the ungrazed area is not stressed it will come into production timely. Typically I can pick up an additional 2 weeks by applying this strategy.


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## unregistered41671

ycanchu2 said:


> They say 2 or 3 coyotes can sound like a dozen.


Must be a dozen outside my fence at night because they sound like a hundred sometimes.


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## CedarMoore

Agman, thanks for the advice. I have a question. I know that overgrazing during the winter will stress the grass, and that it will not grow as fast during the Spring, but does it actually damage the grass or the root system? If not, I think I could get an additional two weeks of grass from the field that I sowed the rye and was last grazed in late October and November. But it would stress the stand of grass. Thanks.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Agman, thanks for the advice. I have a question. I know that overgrazing during the winter will stress the grass, and that it will not grow as fast during the Spring, but does it actually damage the grass or the root system? If not, I think I could get an additional two weeks of grass from the field that I sowed the rye and was last grazed in late October and November. But it would stress the stand of grass. Thanks.


I'll not answer for Agmantoo, but I'll give my 2 cents.
You probably can't hurt the ryegrass. Its the perennials I would be most concerned with and then grazing low once is probably tolerable if needed. Where we get into trouble is where the cattle can go over this new grass and pick it down over and over again. I did that last year before I got my crossfencing up. It just keeps deplenishing the root reserves.


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore

_ycanchu2_ gave a reply that would be similar to mine. I might add that as I stated in other postings that it takes IMO 3 years to establish quality pasture. From what I have seen in research lately it appears that there is a shift in the thoughts of what occurs in this time period. Apparently much of this improvement is from the decaying of the root structure and not from surface organic matter. With our rotational grazing we are creating the circumstance where the plant grows both above and below the surface. As the above surface is harvested by the cattle the below surface root systems die back to balance the plant. The sloughing of this dead matter is the contributor of the soil building matter. If I am understanding this observation by the soil scientist correctly my conclusion is that we may need to treat the pastures somewhat like our lawns and periodically clip the pastures when we have surplus forage, particularly when we are receiving plenty of moisture.


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## ycanchu2

Here is a good article from Christine Jones..a soil biologist in Australia.
Jones, C.E. (2000). Grazing management for healthy soils. Proceedings Stipa Inaugural National 
Grasslands Conference 'Better Pastures Naturally', Mudgee, NSW, pp. 68-75. 
Grazing management for healthy soils 
Christine Jones1 
Abstract 
The roots of grasses form a mirror image of the tops. This relationship provides a very useful 
guide to the health and productivity of grasslands. In general terms, the removal of leaf area 
through grazing results in root pruning, while resting from grazing enables root 
strengthening. Continuous root pruning (as happens to the most palatable components of a 
grassland when the grazing process is not controlled) reduces root biomass, slows nutrient 
cycling, exhausts plant reserves and ultimately causes plant death. However, grasses also 
degenerate if overrested. The grazing process therefore needs to be carefully managed, using 
intermittent grazing and resting to stimulate the growth of new leaves and to provide pruned 
roots as organic matter for soil biota. 
INTRODUCTION 
Healthy soils are the cornerstone of all agricultural productivity. The way we manage plants 
for healthy soils, through control of the grazing process, is the focus of this paper. An 
examination of excavated plant roots from many sites throughout temperate Australia, plus 
insights gained while working with landholders on the biological monitoring of their 
pastures, have made it abundantly clear that good grazing management requires:

i) understanding how to use grazing to stimulate grasses to grow vigorously and 
develop healthy root systems 
ii) using the grazing process to feed livestock AND soil biota 
iii) maintaining 100% soil cover (plants, litter) 100% of the time (NO exceptions) 
iv) rekindling natural soil forming processes 
v) providing adequate rest from grazing without overresting 
All five criteria are equally important. Conservatively stocked properties may appear healthy 
at a casual glance and are usually in better condition than land heavily overstocked for long 
periods. However, on closer inspection, it can be seen that damage is still occurring, albeit at 
a slower rate. Any land which is continually exposed to grazing animals will fail to meet the 
five criteria listed above. There are many indicators. Patch grazing, bare ground between 
plants, unhealthy root systems, little evidence of biological activity in soils, nutrient transfer 
to stock camps, low litter levels, weed invasion, tracking, damage to riparian zones, reduced 
moisture-holding capacity and fluctuations in water table levels affecting streamflow, spring 
1 E-mail: [email protected] 

flow and the incidence of dryland salinity. Continuous grazing represents zero grazing 
management. Graziers who do not proactively manage the grazing process unwittingly place 
themselves in an ongoing confrontation with nature. 
Grasslands and grazers 
The resource degradation associated with unmanaged grazing often leads to well-intentioned 
requests for permanent 'grazing exclusion'. However, grasslands and grazers have co-evolved 
over millions of years, and grasslands NEED grazers, be they kangaroos, elephants, termites 
or sheep, to facilitate energy flow and the recycling of nutrients. In medium to low rainfall 
areas, grasses which are not grazed become senescent and cease to grow productively 
(McNaughton 1979). If all herbivores are excluded, the health of the grassland declines over 
time. 
The use of fire as an alternative method of biomass removal and growth stimulation may 
appear attractive, but results in atmospheric pollution, the loss of many nutrients which 
would be recycled in the grazing process, loss of surface litter, and, if used frequently, bare 
ground with a capped soil surface which inhibits the infiltration of rainfall (Savory 1988). 
Landholders may occasionally have valid reasons to use fire, such as woody weed control, or 
the enhancement of fire-dependent species. However, in view of the risks, fire is a tool 
which should be used cautiously and infrequently. 
Managed grazing is arguably the only natural process by which grasslands can be 'improved' 
on a sustainable basis. Unmanaged grazing, or complete exclusion from grazing, will 
inexorably (whether it be quickly or slowly) lead to desertification in all but the high rainfall 
areas (Savory 1988). To achieve healthy grasslands in medium to low rainfall areas, stock 
need to bunched into large mobs and moved frequently (Savory 1988). Grazing cells provide 
a convenient tool for stock control. In extensive areas with few fences, stock can be herded, 
as is now the practice on many large tracts of public land in the United States and Canada. 
However, there is far more to grazing management than putting stock together and 
manipulating the graze and rest periods. High density short duration grazing per se can also 
lead to resource degradation in the absence of ecological guidelines which ensure that all five 
criteria previously listed are satisfied. When all five criteria are met, grazing acts as a 
rejuvenating process. 
The living soil 
Our soils are the basis of all productivity, but what makes a healthy soil? To be truly healthy 
and working FOR you, rather than having to be 'propped up' with costly inputs, soil needs to 
be living. Only the biological activity which accompanies plants can turn mineral soil (i.e. a 
collection of weathered rock minerals) into living soil. Maintaining permanent groundcover 
and using the grazing process to prune roots to feed soil organisms (soil biota), is of 
fundamental importance for the regeneration of grasslands. 
An enormous number and variety of organisms live in healthy soils, and perform many 
functions. Large soil invertebrates, such as earthworms and dung beetles, are easy to see and 
69 


more familiar to most of us than the microscopic components. They assist in the 
decomposition of plant litter and animal manure by making it more accessible to soil 
microbes. In turn, the activities of microbes (e.g. soil fungi and bacteria) can release up to 
twice the amount of plant nutrients (such as phosphorus) than are available from applied 
fertiliser. 
How can we increase biological activity in soils? Like people, soil organisms cannot survive 
without water, food and shelter. That is, they require suitable habitat and a reliable food 
source. These requirements are met by organic matter in, and on the surface of, the soil. 
Surface litter reduces temperature extremes (both hot and cold, like a roof on your house) 
and aids the infiltration of rainfall. Plant litter also reduces evaporation, so that the net effect 
of keeping soil permanently covered is that it stays moister for longer. Plant roots in the soil, 
both living and dead, provide substrate (food) for soil organisms, in a form which is most 
available when conditions are warm and moist. This is fortunate, because the nutrient cycling 
activities of soil organisms in turn make nutrients available to plants when the plants most 
need them, at a rate at which they can be utilised. This is one of the multiple benefits of 
working WITH nature. These nutrients would otherwise be leached below the root zone or 
adsorbed (fixed) onto soil particles in an unavailable form (Singer and Munns 1992). 
Root pruning 
Controlled grazing is the management of the relationship between animals, plants and 
the soil. When undertaken in such a way as to provide organic matter in the form needed for 
healthy, living soils, controlled grazing can regenerate grasslands and improve livestock 
production simultaneously. 
The biomass of the tops and the roots of grasses are roughly equal, forming a mirror image 
(Fig.1). The energy for root growth and metabolism can only come from sunlight captured by 
plant leaves during photosynthesis. A small âtop halfâ cannot possibly support a large root 
system. Short grasses have short roots (Fig.1, left). Vigorous grasses have dense, fibrous, 
multi-branched roots (Fig.1, right). 
Fibrous root systems provide a multiplicity of benefits including soil aeration, erosion 
control, enhanced nutrient cycling, soil building, increased water-holding capacity and 
reduced groundwater recharge. They also provide habitat and substrate for soil biota such as 
free-living nitrogen-fixing bacteria. 
Grass plants and their litter form the primary interface between animals and the soil. When 
livestock are left in the same paddock for long periods of time they place continual grazing 
pressure on the most palatable grasses and these are kept short (Fig. 2). The compromised 
root system of these overgrazed plants cannot function effectively. Nutrient availability may 
be reduced 80-90%, creating an ongoing requirement for fertiliser application. Short root 
systems also render plants extremely vulnerable during droughts. 
70 


Fig. 1. The biomass of the roots and the tops of grasses are roughly equal, forming 
a mirror image. Short grasses (left) have small root systems. 

Fig. 2. Continual grazing pressure on the most palatable grasses provides a 
competitive advantage to the less palatable grasses for water and nutrients. 
71 


If desirable grasses are rested from continuous grazing (Fig. 3, right) and then defoliated in a 
single grazing event (such as in cell or pulsed grazing), a large proportion of roots cease 
respiring and die within a few hours of the removal of the leaves, in order to equalise the 
biomass (Richards 1993). The root pruning effect (Fig. 3, left) is regenerative rather than 
degenerative. These 'pruned roots' provide extremely valuable organic matter which 
improves the physical, chemical and biological attributes of the soil. 

Fig. 3. When desirable grasses are rested (right) and then rapidly defoliated through pulsed 
grazing (such as cell grazing), the roots are 'pruned' within a few hours to equalise the 
biomass (left). The root pruning effect (left) is regenerative rather than degenerative. 
It is fundamentally important that grasses be rested prior to the next graze, to rebuild new 
root systems (Earl 1997). Leaf regrowth can begin within hours of grazing, provided 
conditions are favourable (Richards 1993). However, re-grazing at this sensitive stage will 
severely deplete plant reserves, resulting in either plant death or the formation of a steady-
state type of equilibrium, where both tops and roots remain restricted in size, such as is found 
in mown turf and continuously grazed grassland (Richards 1993). 
During the graze period (which is most commonly one, two or three days) approximately 
20% of the available forage should be trampled to form surface litter and approximately 20% 
left standing (i.e. around 60% utilised for animal consumption). The percentages vary with 
circumstances but the importance of forming surface litter cannot be overemphasised. 
Finally, if the grassland is to be productive, it must not be overrested. Senescent plants are 
relatively nutrient poor and have low digestibility and inactive root systems. Overgrown 
grasses, in particular, can inhibit the growth of other herbaceous grassland species such as 
forbs, which contribute to both biodiversity and livestock production. For these reasons, the 
grasses which are desirable from an animal production perspective need to be grazed 
intermittently. Note however, that up to 30% of relatively unpalatable, ungrazed tussocky 
72 


plants can improve the structure and function of grasslands. Tussocks reduce wind-speed, 
improve humidity at ground level and provide habitat for small living things above and 
below ground. The result is higher overall productivity than can be obtained from short, 
uniform pastures. 
Competitive interactions between species 
What about the grassland components we donât want? The plants we call weeds? It is often 
said that for as long as we spray weeds there will be weeds to spray. This truism applies 
equally to the ploughing, burning or deliberate application of grazing pressure to unwanted 
plants. Attempting to manipulate a limited number of species, be they considered desirable 
or undesirable, with little consideration for the dynamics of the entire plant and animal 
community, can lead only to a deterioration in ecosystem processes and landscape function 
(Savory 1988). 
When the grazing process is not managed, stock continually select the most palatable pasture 
components (Earl and Jones 1996). As already mentioned, if these plants are overgrazed they 
will have short roots. This prevents them from competing effectively with relatively 
unpalatable, ungrazed weeds, which will have deeper root systems (Fig. 4A). In this 
situation, the ungrazed weeds have an obvious advantage in obtaining water and nutrients, 
particularly during droughts. If the 'softer' grasses are overgrazed to the point where they die, 
it is highly likely that the less palatable species, which have had the opportunity to seed, will 
take their place. 
Considerable effort has been expended to find ways to 'graze weeds into the ground' (Fig. 
4B) using some form of crash grazing in otherwise set-stocked situations. Like ploughing, 
burning or spraying, short-term results often appear promising, but in the longer term, the 
health of the grassland declines and the less desirable plants more often than not proliferate. 
The use of high stock densities to apply grazing pressure to relatively unpalatable pasture 
components (Fig. 4B), can reduce ecosystem health to an even greater extent than selective 
grazing (Fig. 4A) if used repeatedly. In this scenario (Fig. 4B), the root biomass and root 
depth of all species will be reduced, as will litter cover, leading to greater fluctuations in soil 
temperature, reduced infiltration of rainfall, lower soil moisture levels, lower levels of soil 
biological activity and reduced capacity for nutrient cycling. Plant community dynamics, 
particularly competitive interactions below ground, will be almost non-existent (Fig. 4B). 
The use of high stock density in this way differs from the strategic use of animal impact as 
defined by Savory (1988). 
Given the same starting point as before (Fig. 4A), let us ignore the weeds, and instead 
concentrate on what we want. In order for the more desirable pasture components to produce 
vigorous top growth and therefore vigorous roots, we need to allow sufficient plant growth 
between graze periods. Plant community dynamics will do the rest (Fig. 4C). Competition 
BELOW ground is the most effective way to reduce the vigour of established weeds. 
73 


To reduce the germination of new weed seedlings, groundcover needs to be maintained at 
100% (plants plus plant litter), for 100% of the time. This again depends on appropriate 
grazing management. Well-mulched soils provide excellent establishment conditions for the 
perennial grasses regarded as desirable for livestock production. These plants evolved in 
soils high in organic matter -whereas weedy species usually colonise bare ground. 

Fig. 4. Effect of grazing method on the competitive interactions between plants, particularly 
below ground. A: relatively unpalatable species gain an advantage for water and nutrients 
under continuous selective grazing. B: frequent crash grazing, burning, herbicide use or 
slashing of undesirable species reduces the biomass of all plants above and below ground. 
C: long rest periods and short, heavy graze periods enable desirable plants to form vigorous 
root systems and out-compete less desirable plants. 
74 


CONCLUSION 
The way grasslands are managed affects not only their diversity and productivity, but also the 
extent to which they nourish soil organisms. The activities of these organisms are vitally 
important to both the cycling of nutrients and the maintenance of good soil structure, which 
in turn have positive feedback effects on plant growth and animal production. 
When pastures are always short, natural nutrient cycles canât function. Degraded pastures 
can be supplemented with fertiliser, but this augmentation is unbalanced and usually only 
economical when commodity prices are high. In the current marketplace, the majority of 
livestock producers are faced with a negative cash flow situation and can little afford 
expensive off-the-shelf products. Furthermore, loss of groundcover as a result of unmanaged 
grazing leads to weed invasion and erosion, as well as off-site impacts such as sedimentation 
of dams and rivers. 
Changes to conventional grazing practices which enhance ecosystem function have 
implications far beyond changes in botanical composition. Of particular importance from a 
rangeland health perspective, is the effect of appropriate grazing management on the 
infiltration of rainfall and the water-use efficiency of plants, drought survival, biodiversity, 
organic matter levels, soil biota, soil structure and the building of new topsoil. 
Improvements in these factors can move us towards the restoration of hydrological balance 
on a catchment scale and most importantly, strengthen rural communities through their 
impact on farm profitability. 
References 
Earl, J.M. (1997). The benefits of increasing defoliation interval. Proc. 12th Ann. Conf. 
Grassland Society of NSW, Dubbo, pp. 143-145. 
Earl, J.M. and Jones, C.E. (1996). The need for a new approach to grazing management -is 
cell grazing the answer? The Rangeland Journal 18: 327-350. 
McNaughton, S.J. (1979). Grazing as an optimisation process: grass-ungulate relationships in 
the Serengeti. American Naturalist 113: 691-703. 
Richards, J.H. (1993). Physiology of plants recovering from defoliation. Proc. XVII Int. 
Grasslands Congress, Palmerston North, New Zealand, pp. 85 â93. 
Savory, A. (1998). 'Holistic Resource Management'. Island Press, Washington, DC. 
Singer M.J. and Munns, D.N. (1992). 'Soils, An Introduction'. Second edition. McMillan, 
New York. 
75


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## ycanchu2

Here is an email she(Christine Jones) sent me about grazing height last year.


It is a scientific fact that the more leaf left behind the more quickly the plant will recover. 

Almost twice as much feed can be produced in a given area over a whole year if the plants are only grazed down to half of their original height at each grazing event - and rested until they have regrown to their full height before grazing again.

If the plants are grazed down to 2 inches a lot more roots will die off than if the plant is grazed down to 4 or 5 inches.

Try if for yourself and see ...

Warm regards,
Christine Jones


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## randyandmegs

Good talk from Allan Savory on MIG on the worlds stage.

http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savo...s_and_reverse_climate_change.html?fb_ref=talk

Edit: Just noticed some of the same topics she is referencing above he talks about in the video. The speech was given last month at TED.


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## ycanchu2

Someone posted it over on CT....great video...thought provoking.


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## Awnry Abe

ycanchu2 said:


> Someone posted it over on CT....great video...thought provoking.


Thanks for posting that article. It was a very informative. 


BTW, what is CT?


----------



## agmantoo

CT ..... Cattle Today is a website consisting of mostly cattle producers using conventional methods.


----------



## CedarMoore

Thanks Ycan and Agman! My experience with daily moving of cattle began last year, and this was my second year of stockpiling fescue. So I am not disappointed at all that I just finished my stockpile of grass yesterday. I just see 3 or 4 inches of grass left in th fields, which equates to 300 to 600 pounds an inch per acre, and think "I could go a few more days/weeks without feeding hay." Last year I just went to the middle of January without hay, so again I am not disappointed. On to short ryegrass for a few days, and then hay. Thanks again.


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## ycanchu2

Here is a interesting video I ran across......I 've heard Gabriel mention him Greg Judy

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HGKSvjk5Q[/ame]


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## CesumPec

excellent info from Greg Judy, I learned tons, thanks ycanchu2


----------



## ATPFARM

CesumPec said:


> excellent info from Greg Judy, I learned tons, thanks ycanchu2


xcellent:thumb:


----------



## CedarMoore

Ycan, I have seen this video and read several articles by Judy. I dont' basically disagree with what he says, with the exception of him saying that he has built 3 inches of topsoil in 4 years. From what I understand, the animals aren't on the land but once or twice a year. There is no way to build that much soil in 4 years. 

He may have quit his day job to "farm" full time, but I'll bet most of his income come from selling books and giving speeches, not from from selling animals. I don't think much of his business model for making money. He has 1900 acres and runs 300 head of cattle and 300 head of sheep. I know not all the acreage is pasture, but it's still 1900 acres he leases or owns. Not many animals for the acreage. For me to follow Judy, I would have to decrease my stocking by one half or more and probably watch the Johnson Grass and thistles take over my farm. Stomping them down once or twice a year isn't going to keep them from seeding out.

I don't always agree with all of Agman's advice (matter of opinion, and what works for me, where I disagree), but based on his postings, he knows how to make money and at the same time build his topsoil as good or better than Judy. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Ycan, I have seen this video and read several articles by Judy. I dont' basically disagree with what he says, with the exception of him saying that he has built 3 inches of topsoil in 4 years. From what I understand, the animals aren't on the land but once or twice a year. There is no way to build that much soil in 4 years.
> 
> He may have quit his day job to "farm" full time, but I'll bet most of his income come from selling books and giving speeches, not from from selling animals. I don't think much of his business model for making money. He has 1900 acres and runs 300 head of cattle and 300 head of sheep. I know not all the acreage is pasture, but it's still 1900 acres he leases or owns. Not many animals for the acreage. For me to follow Judy, I would have to decrease my stocking by one half or more and probably watch the Johnson Grass and thistles take over my farm. Stomping them down once or twice a year isn't going to keep them from seeding out.
> 
> I don't always agree with all of Agman's advice (matter of opinion, and what works for me, where I disagree), but based on his postings, he knows how to make money and at the same time build his topsoil as good or better than Judy. Just my 2 cents.


Agmantoo's advice and Greg Judy's advice are both right IMO. I don't think you can go wrong either way, they are basically the same with a slightly different approach. One of the biggest problems most people have is to start grazing too early in the spring...I did that last year. It seems to reason that letting that plant mature and develop a good root system would insulate it thru the summer months. letting it go to seed if it gets away from you may not be so bad. Often times the truth is so simplistic it is hard to grasp, especially when we have been indoctrinated that we have to fertilise or nothing will grow. Concerning Rotational grazing I'm not sure you can do it wrong....let it grow, graze it, and move em. Its a learning process for me and trying new things is sometimes good.
One of my biggest mistakes last year was bushhogging too much and too short. I thought i needed to even everything back up. I noticed that the higher I set my bushhog the faster it recovered. Greg Judy says don't bushhog at all....i guess that will be something to experiment with on part of my ground.


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## Gabriel

From http://www.greenpasturesfarm.net/blog.php?entr---=998 which is Greg Judy's blog.



> For years we ran a stock density of 16 to 20 head per acre with a two-day graze period. We never could control our weeds and always had rank uneaten grass when we moved them. We were on a 4 &#8211; 5 week rest cycle before that pasture was grazed again. As the grazing season progressed, the cattle would always leave the rank grass and weeds.
> 
> With our present heavy stocking density, everything is eaten or tromped flat on the ground. Our present rest period is 60 &#8211; 90 days;
> 
> It used to take 5 acres to run an animal unit for the season. Now we can run an animal unit on 1.5 acres.


Short on time or I'd address some more things.


----------



## ATPFARM

CedarMoore said:


> Ycan, I have seen this video and read several articles by Judy. I dont' basically disagree with what he says, with the exception of him saying that he has built 3 inches of topsoil in 4 years. From what I understand, the animals aren't on the land but once or twice a year. There is no way to build that much soil in 4 years.
> 
> He may have quit his day job to "farm" full time, but I'll bet most of his income come from selling books and giving speeches, not from from selling animals. I don't think much of his business model for making money. He has 1900 acres and runs 300 head of cattle and 300 head of sheep. I know not all the acreage is pasture, but it's still 1900 acres he leases or owns. Not many animals for the acreage. For me to follow Judy, I would have to decrease my stocking by one half or more and probably watch the Johnson Grass and thistles take over my farm. Stomping them down once or twice a year isn't going to keep them from seeding out.
> 
> I don't always agree with all of Agman's advice (matter of opinion, and what works for me, where I disagree), but based on his postings, he knows how to make money and at the same time build his topsoil as good or better than Judy. Just my 2 cents.




I too noticed the stocking rate..(Judy). suprising...!


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## agmantoo

Took the pic below on March 13. The cattle were removed at the end of Feb. As I mentioned earlier I was getting low on stockpiled grass and that at times I will, out of necessity, graze excessively short. This was the situation here. However, as can be seen the forage is recovering rapidly. I only attempt to accomplish this forage stretching practice on paddocks that I know were not stressed recently and where the soil is able to support such action. The recovery in the two weeks time is indicative to me of what good soil can accomplish.


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## CedarMoore

Gabriel, do you mobgraze like Judy? If he is mobgrazing and running a cow/calf on 1.5 acres, 365 days a year, I would like to know more. I had never heard his stocking rate until your post. You listen to his video and just assume that his stocking rate is around 5 acres per cow/calf with very long rotation periods. In fact, at one point in his video, he is critical of rotations of 8 times per year. Don't know how old the video is, maybe his stocking rates have increased over the years with improved soil. 

Agman, thanks for sharing your picture. I always like seeing your place.


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## ramiller5675

I've never seen where Judy is running a cow/calf pair on 1.5 acres. The numbers I've seen are somewhere around 2.4 acres per AU (which would be somewhere around 3.5-4 acres per pair depending on the size of his cows). 

So if he has about 400 pairs, he would need about 1400-1600 acres (which is close to the numbers he gives on the amount of land he has).


----------



## Gabriel

CedarMoore said:


> Gabriel, do you mobgraze like Judy?


I will be doing so this year. I have not been able to up to this point, due to the low # of cows I had. I don't care what anyone says, you can't "mob" with two cows when there's no shade! With more cows you can make their pasture reach some shade. I did some last fall, seemed like it gave me the animal impact I was looking for but don't yet know how that will play out in the long run.



> In fact, at one point in his video, he is critical of rotations of 8 times per year.


Most people that I respect recommend 1 rotation for every ten inches of rainfall. /shrug



> I've never seen where Judy is running a cow/calf pair on 1.5 acres.


I just gave the link to his blog where he makes that claim. I'll ask some people who may know and get back to y'all.


----------



## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> I will be doing so this year. I have not been able to up to this point, due to the low # of cows I had._ I don't care what anyone says, you can't "mob" with two cows when there's no shade! _*I have a neighbor who put two horses inside 4 corral gates and moved them every day or two...in the summer though you would need a lane to shade and water. I think you could do two cows but give them an area no more than the average size living room. I like Agmantoo's idea of permanent lanes to shade and water. GJ makes his lanes as he goes....too much work IMO. Agman keeps his grass vegetative, while GJ lets it get mature..both seem to be succesful. *With more cows you can make their pasture reach some shade. I did some last fall, seemed like it gave me the animal impact I was looking for but don't yet know how that will play out in the long run.
> 
> 
> 
> Most people that I respect recommend 1 rotation for every ten inches of rainfall. /shrug
> 
> 
> 
> I just gave the link to his blog where he makes that claim. I'll ask some people who may know and get back to y'all.


*Back in the bible days they were supposed to let the land lay idle every 7th year...maybe we need to let a 7th part of our land at least go to mature seed every year. Something to think about.*
*Here is a round table talk with GJ part one...there is about 12 parts.*
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwjmg9jqc-Y[/ame]


----------



## Go for 300

Those 12 videos are worth watching I would say. We are going to be bringing in abou 100 stockers this spring/summer. Part of the plan is to strip/rotational lay graze them through a grass/alfalfa stand. I am thinking that we well have plenty of grass to cut that hay field for first cutting in the first of June and then have it ready to graze the second week of July when the grass starts to slow down. It will add about two weeks to the rotation and ,keep them on good feed. Anyone ever rotated with side roll (wheel line) irrigation? The pasture is all set up with k-line pods so no worries about the cattle beating them up, but it may be necessary to run the wheel line behind them a couple strips to keep it from burning up.

And the other question is would I, should I, clip the alf/grass when they move off or let it ride as the mob guys do?


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## mulemom

Thanks to all for the response to my question on coyotes. Agmantoo-in your march 13 pic had you drug that field? It looks really good. We're : deep in mud-even at a walk the cows leave ankle deep holes. I just keep telling myself the holes will trap rain when we need it.


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## ycanchu2

Go for 300 said:


> Those 12 videos are worth watching I would say. We are going to be bringing in abou 100 stockers this spring/summer. Part of the plan is to strip/rotational lay graze them through a grass/alfalfa stand. I am thinking that we well have plenty of grass to cut that hay field for first cutting in the first of June and then have it ready to graze the second week of July when the grass starts to slow down. It will add about two weeks to the rotation and ,keep them on good feed. Anyone ever rotated with side roll (wheel line) irrigation? The pasture is all set up with k-line pods so no worries about the cattle beating them up, but it may be necessary to run the wheel line behind them a couple strips to keep it from burning up.
> 
> *And the other question is would I, should I, clip the alf/grass when they move off or let it ride as the mob guys do?*




You could try some both ways and see. last year I noticed the grass in the corners of my fields where I couldn't get the bushhog into was noticeably bigger going into the fall than the rest of the field.


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## randyandmegs

I have seen that as well in areas but I'm wondering if the bigger grass has the same quality. I never had time this winter to do forage samples for quality testing to be able to tell. I have read in several articles as far as infected fescue goes the Endophyte is higher in the seed heads of the mature grasses.


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## Gabriel

I would let it go without clipping. It's been a hay field, so there's probably not enough weeds to worry about. Even if there were, the next time you come through you can trample them if you run the appropriate density. 

Taller forage gives some advantages: better soil protection from the harsh elements, it feeds the soil when trampled in a way that I think mowing does not achieve, and it serves as a last ditch stockpile as long as it's not poisonous. It also saves the cost of running that tractor. 

Here's a reply that I got from someone who interned at the Judy's:



> I interned on Greg's farm from Jan '12 to Dec '12. The drought
> started there in '11. Almost no regrowth in the summer of '11, with
> enough fall growth to supplement with hay on stockpile with no destocking.
> We started '12 with about 250 head total. By the end of '12 we were
> down to 80 pairs with a few older bulls, a few yearling bulls and a
> few heifers. About 180 head total.
> This is on 1000 acres but only about 600 of grass, the remainder was
> timber that was mostly cedars.
> The last I heard he was supplementing hay on stockpile, about 1 bale
> per day, and the cows are fat and happy.


----------



## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> I have seen that as well in areas but I'm wondering if the bigger grass has the same quality. I never had time this winter to do forage samples for quality testing to be able to tell. I have read in several articles as far as infected fescue goes the Endophyte is higher in the seed heads of the mature grasses.


Do you have refractometer? i bought one back in the spring(their not too expensive). 12 is considered good on the index line,..... up in the fall after several freezes I got some readings of fescue and orchardgrass up in the 20's.
Here are a couple of good articles:
http://www.articlesbase.com/environ...s-animal-raising-more-profitable-1116237.html

http://www.articlesbase.com/environ...these-affect-brix-meters-results-1092538.html


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## randyandmegs

For that cost that would be a neat gadget just to see what plants scores what and at what time of the year. I noticed a few years ago that a deer food plot was waist high but nothing would touch it until the frost hit it and then it was all gone in a matter of a week. I'm sure that had something to do with the sugar content. So will just any of the models on Ebay work for forage?


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> For that cost that would be a neat gadget just to see what plants scores what and at what time of the year. I noticed a few years ago that a deer food plot was waist high but nothing would touch it until the frost hit it and then it was all gone in a matter of a week. I'm sure that had something to do with the sugar content. So will just any of the models on Ebay work for forage?


I'm not an expert on the different kinds or if there is a difference. They are what winemakers use to test the sugar content of grapes. Getting the juice out of grass can be difficult at times. They say you can use a garlic press, but I use a juicer. Also the reading will be higher in the afternoon on a sunny day than in the morning. They are fun to use on fruit like watermelon too. If you get a watermelon that is really good the brix reading will usually be a lot higher than one that isn't.


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## CedarMoore

Gabriel, keep us posted on your progress as you begin your mob grazing. Do you plan on more than one move per day? As I previously said, I am interested in any system that improves stocking rate, especially in my growing zone. I never thought I would go from moving cattle from once a week to everyday. It has definitely improved my grasses. If mob grazing could better improve my pasture, I may give it try. Do you mind sharing the number of cattle and your plan for your mob grazing, including the density rate and type of grasses, etc.


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## Gabriel

CedarMoore, I plan on moving twice a day. That seems to give the most return for the effort invested. I may do it more often if an area is really weedy and needs the extra impact, but for the most part it doesn't seem worth the time spent.


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## randyandmegs

How many cattle will you trying this with? I'm going to stick with
Agmantoo's way for quite a while until I build up a large enough herd and may try it then.


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## CedarMoore

How is everybody's grass? I have a lot of clover and weeds coming up, but grass is slow. It's been a cold March in KY. Last year people were haying around the first of April. I am grazing some and feeding as little hay as possible. Just waiting for the Spring burst of growth.


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## Awnry Abe

Covered with snow. I think it is greening up, though. But slow growing still. Our daytime temps haven't hit 50 much in a couple of weeks. We should get some good growth starting this week. 60s expected.


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## agmantoo

Come what may I have to put the herd on new growth in 3 days! My fescue is coming along better than the rye grass, clover is very short. Ground temperatures are still too low to encourage growth. The conventional producers have very little growth and will be lagging by at least two weeks with their recovery. My concern at this juncture is will we get adequate moisture this summer?


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## ycanchu2

Grass here is really greening up but slow growth...to cold also here. I'm going to feed hay as long as I can. We have had so much rain here this winter that when it does warm up grass should really take off.


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## WJMartin

All the rain has stayed to the north of us and turned into snow for the rest of you. We are sooo dry, doesn't look good for the summer. Are getting some green here of the winter grass and some of the rye is trying to come up, we've had some nice temps, just need some rain, have a good chance each day this next week, so say the weathermen today, we'll see what they have to say next week. 

I'm moving my herd off the sacrifice area and on to the 15 acres that has a pond, or mud hole but has a good stand of winter grass, not alot of nutrition but I've put 80 bales of wheat hay out on the 4 acres we cleared cedars off of and they can eat through that and spread it around and give the rest of the pasture some time to come on if we can just get a good rain. We have the potential of 1" in the next week and one weatherman called it " a boat load of rain!" lol


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## bigbluegrass

Grass is slow starting here as well. Clover is slow starting as well. I see a variety of weeds that are putting on some growth. Ryegrass is growing, but slowly. Older fescue is growing, but slowly. The fall planted fescue is not growing yet. On most of the cool season grasses, I have about 2" of new growth since winter. I have enough hay to go another 2 weeks, then I will turn the cows out and start rotating again. We have had plenty of moisture. Mud everywhere. I just hope it doesn't go from 50 to 90 and burn it up. Last year at this time I was rotating through 12" high mature grass. It was also in the upper 70's and low 80's during the day. What a change.


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## Alaska

Dry as a bone here in scentral texas Gras is trying to grow beside the weeds and wildflowers.
Sure hope I do not have to buy as much hay this year.


----------



## Go for 300

This is somewhat related, so hope it gets some responses.

We tried rotational grazing last year, turns out our fencing wasn't planned well enough or maybe not built right (been reading this thread for two years now and thought I had it figured out). Anyway gonna spend the money and do the fences with the right materials this year. So planning we will have extra grass in the pastures and will be bringing in 100 stockers to rotate.

That is the background and the plan. The question is, has anyone tried to no-till small grains ( say oats) into a pasture and got any benefit from it? Seems it would provide more food, but maybe would be better to hold off and try it in mid/late June to help fill the slump in late July/August.

Any thoughts?

Other thing I am thinking is to cut first cutting on one grass/alfalfa field while rotating through the spring flush, and then strip graze that during the slump. ,should give the pastures an extra 2 weeks rest during the hot period, but could also give the oats a couple weeks to get ahead of them too.


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## ramiller5675

I don't know about trying to grow oats in the summer, but I've tried "pasture cropping" where I drilled winter wheat into a bermuda pasture in the fall, grazed the wheat over the winter, then ran a combine over the field the next summer and got a small grain harvest. I've also just baled the wheat in early spring, instead of harvesting the grain.

For more info go to: http://www.pasturecropnokillcrop.com/


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## godsgapeach

Hey, everybody. I've been MIA forEVER, but I'm getting back in the swing. Things were pretty rough with the drought over the last 2 years--if you looked at the Georgia map, where things were the most extreme included our farm. But I'm repairing fences and cranking back up. Thankfully still ahead of spring growth here, but won't be for long. 

Hope everyone is well!


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## randyandmegs

Glad to see you back. Can you believe how much this has grown since you have been gone. I'm sure most everyone on here after reading the entire thread are all wondering how you are doing with your cattle now. You sure started a popular thread that Agmantoo has ran with and tought many many people on here. I'm going to send you a PM as well for a question.
Welcome back

Randy


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## baseball

I'm finally all moved in and settled at my new place. I hoping to buy some cattle in the next 30-60 days. The grass is getting a much needed rest from the horses that were on the property. Anybody have a contact for a source of good grass finishing cattle. I'm located in northeast oklahoma. I'm looking for either cow/calf pairs, heifers, steers with good genetics for finishing on grass. Hopefully I can get my electric fences up before the grass is ready for the cattle.


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## Gabriel

http://pharocattle.com/classifieds.htm You could also check the Stockman Grass Farmer classifieds.


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## The Ruminant

Hello All from here in the UK!

First of all, what a fantastic thread this is, I've spent the last couple of weeks ploughing through it and have picked up lots of useful information - thanks especially to Agman for sharing his time and expertise so freely.

I've been mob grazing / rotational grazing for three years now - we're currently running 130 spring-calving cows. In 2011 I was fortunate enough to win a scholarship to study the practice and consequently I visited Greg Judy, Neil Dennis, Chad Peterson, Doug Peterson and various other practitioners in the US before travelling to South America to study their methods too. If anyone's interested in my findings, the report is here: http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1348746792Tom-Chapman-2011-report_.pdf

I wished I'd come across this thread whilst I was travelling, I would love to have seen Agman's set-up too!

It is interesting to hear comparisons between Agman's system and the 'mob-grazing' system. Based on my experiences, I would say there is very little difference between the two. Both are allowing the grasses to recover fully from the previous grazing process which allows both roots and above-ground foliage to develop; both then graze the best parts of the plants - the top parts - leaving sufficient leaf to allow the forage plant to continue the photosynthesis process; and both look to manage the grassland so as to build a stockpile of grass to feed through winter so that bought in feedstuffs are kept to a minimum.

So what are the differences? Well, the biggest thing that struck me was Agman's use of the tractor to manage the pastures - many of the mob grazers I met didn't own a tractor and made the cattle do all the work. There is no doubt in my mind that Agman is absolutely right in his assertions that clipping the seed heads off grasses keeps them growing and vegetative for longer. My question to him is: could he bunch the cattle tightly enough to trample these stalks instead of cutting them? I guess fuel is one of his biggest costs, and this might be a way of addressing this too! (I'm not sure of the answer - I'm going to be experimenting this summer with a combination of trampling and clipping following what Iâve read on this thread).

My second observation is that Agman mentions having to replenish poor areas of fescue through reseeding. Again, my question to Agman is: could you 'refresh' this grassland through different management? By this I mean would letting it rest and complete its lifecycle mean the plants were replenished for the subsequent growth? Again, I don't know the answer but it would be an interesting experiment to try on a small plot, maybe. My thinking is based on various articles I have read such as this one: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/natres/06108.html. In this article it states: 
Grasses commonly store carbohydrates when most leaf growth is complete. Even though leaves still have a high photosynthetic capacity and sufficient leaf area for photosynthesis, there are few demands for new growth. Therefore, carbohydrates accumulate in roots and crowns and serve as storage organs for growth the next spring. These carbohydrate reserves also are necessary for plant respiration during winter dormancy when photosynthesis is not possible but crowns and roots remain alive.
I wonder whether by occasionally letting the plant reach maturity and set seed, we would allow it to ârecharge its batteriesâ (as well as having some new seed fall to the ground to help the replenishing process!)

I hope people donât mind me posting my thoughts here. I in no way want or intend to be critical of all that Agman has done. I think it is incredible and his system genuinely works for him. I just thought Iâd challenge a couple of his paradigms.


----------



## Awnry Abe

Ruminant,

Not that I have any pardigms worth challenging, but if I did, I hope they get challenged as eloquantly and gracefully as you did. You won't find too many people as professional as Agman on these forums, so I am sure you will get well thought out answers.


----------



## SCRancher

Ruminant,

Great first post. The only thought I had was with the replenishment of warn areas. I don't reseed my damaged areas and I don't typically clip my pastures although I have experimented - it's not fuel that is my concern it's my time with a 6 foot wide brush hog. If I owned a 15 to 20 foot brush hog I would clip pastures.

So back to damaged / depleted areas - my prior to this year is that the first thing that grows back is weeds - now I'm not opposed to some of the weeds because the cows graze them but others they ignore which are what I would consider a true weed.

This year after my first good year of clover going to seed is that if any clover was in the damaged areas and it went to seed the clover took off early enough to cover the area which I don't mind.

My vet who is a long time cattle man said fescue reseeds itself poorly as the seeds are simply too fragile to self seed well. This comment after he asked why I didn't clip my pasture and I told him I was wanting the pasture to reseed - my experence so far is he is pretty correct - my fescue does not reseed itself well.

Anyway thanks for posting and sharing - I have not had time to review the two links you provided but I will get to them sometime in the next few days.


----------



## WJMartin

We are finally recieving a nice amount of rain! 3" so far, soon I'll be worried about flooding. 

The grass is popping up overnight, I finally feel like I'll be able to graze the cattle sucessfully this year, just waiting to see what will need some seeding, tried not to graze too short so hoping I have good pasture. I have alot of bare areas from clearing the cedars and so far none of the seeding has come up but I'm still hoping that I have a seed base of native grasses, just need it to warm up alittle.

We have worked hard this winter to bring in some fill dirt for some wash areas and have seeded them heavily with rye and clover. Alot of wash areas we didn't even know about until we cleared the cedars off.


----------



## ufo_chris

We finally had the first day of spring like temps here and the forecast looks the same.
Last week we had a few inches of snow and it has been cold ,so no grass growth yet but hopefully soon. Can't wait!


----------



## ycanchu2

The Ruminant said:


> Hello All from here in the UK!
> 
> First of all, what a fantastic thread this is, I've spent the last couple of weeks ploughing through it and have picked up lots of useful information - thanks especially to Agman for sharing his time and expertise so freely.
> 
> I've been mob grazing / rotational grazing for three years now - we're currently running 130 spring-calving cows. In 2011 I was fortunate enough to win a scholarship to study the practice and consequently I visited Greg Judy, Neil Dennis, Chad Peterson, Doug Peterson and various other practitioners in the US before travelling to South America to study their methods too. If anyone's interested in my findings, the report is here: http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1348746792Tom-Chapman-2011-report_.pdf
> 
> I wished I'd come across this thread whilst I was travelling, I would love to have seen Agman's set-up too!
> 
> It is interesting to hear comparisons between Agman's system and the 'mob-grazing' system. Based on my experiences, I would say there is very little difference between the two. Both are allowing the grasses to recover fully from the previous grazing process which allows both roots and above-ground foliage to develop; both then graze the best parts of the plants - the top parts - leaving sufficient leaf to allow the forage plant to continue the photosynthesis process; and both look to manage the grassland so as to build a stockpile of grass to feed through winter so that bought in feedstuffs are kept to a minimum.
> 
> So what are the differences? Well, the biggest thing that struck me was Agman's use of the tractor to manage the pastures - many of the mob grazers I met didn't own a tractor and made the cattle do all the work. There is no doubt in my mind that Agman is absolutely right in his assertions that clipping the seed heads off grasses keeps them growing and vegetative for longer. My question to him is: could he bunch the cattle tightly enough to trample these stalks instead of cutting them? I guess fuel is one of his biggest costs, and this might be a way of addressing this too! (I'm not sure of the answer - I'm going to be experimenting this summer with a combination of trampling and clipping following what Iâve read on this thread).
> 
> My second observation is that Agman mentions having to replenish poor areas of fescue through reseeding. Again, my question to Agman is: could you 'refresh' this grassland through different management? By this I mean would letting it rest and complete its lifecycle mean the plants were replenished for the subsequent growth? Again, I don't know the answer but it would be an interesting experiment to try on a small plot, maybe. My thinking is based on various articles I have read such as this one: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/natres/06108.html. In this article it states:
> Grasses commonly store carbohydrates when most leaf growth is complete. Even though leaves still have a high photosynthetic capacity and sufficient leaf area for photosynthesis, there are few demands for new growth. Therefore, carbohydrates accumulate in roots and crowns and serve as storage organs for growth the next spring. These carbohydrate reserves also are necessary for plant respiration during winter dormancy when photosynthesis is not possible but crowns and roots remain alive.
> I wonder whether by occasionally letting the plant reach maturity and set seed, we would allow it to ârecharge its batteriesâ (as well as having some new seed fall to the ground to help the replenishing process!)
> 
> I hope people donât mind me posting my thoughts here. I in no way want or intend to be critical of all that Agman has done. I think it is incredible and his system genuinely works for him. I just thought Iâd challenge a couple of his paradigms.


Good articles. my question is .....have you seen any adverse effect of letting fescue go to seed and cattle eating the seedheads? Or do you just keep culling the poor doers? Do you have fescue there in the U.K.?


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## ramiller5675

I thought the whole idea behind agmantoo's clipping his grass was to get rid of the seed heads so that the amount of endophyte in the forage would be reduced (along with planting clovers to lessen the effect of the endophyte).

Other types of grasses without an endophyte problem don't necessarily need to be clipped. 

And, if his fescue stand is thin and needs reseeded, it will also produce a smaller amount of seed. Since he has the ability to easily harvest fescue seed, it is better to spread more seed on those thin areas and get a jumpstart on the grass thickening up. If you had to buy fescue seed, depending on the cost or availability, you might not manage it the same way.


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## ycanchu2

ramiller5675 said:


> I thought the whole idea behind agmantoo's clipping his grass was to get rid of the seed heads so that the amount of endophyte in the forage would be reduced (along with planting clovers to lessen the effect of the endophyte).
> 
> Other types of grasses without an endophyte problem don't necessarily need to be clipped.
> 
> And, if his fescue stand is thin and needs reseeded, it will also produce a smaller amount of seed. Since he has the ability to easily harvest fescue seed, it is better to spread more seed on those thin areas and get a jumpstart on the grass thickening up. If you had to buy fescue seed, depending on the cost or availability, you might not manage it the same way.


I think it is. I forgot to mention endophyte in the question above. Iknow last year I kept my seedheads clipped but still had 2 or 3 cows with foot problems for a little while. I wonder if clipping helps that much in that regard or should we just need to keep culling those that can't take it. I'm sure Greg Judy has a lot of fescue in Missouri and doesn't clip. Wondering what kind of problems if any he has with it.


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## The Ruminant

ycanchu2 said:


> Good articles. my question is .....have you seen any adverse effect of letting fescue go to seed and cattle eating the seedheads? Or do you just keep culling the poor doers? Do you have fescue there in the U.K.?


That's a very good question. In my area of the UK we have very little fescue - most of our pasture land is 'improved' pastureland which means it is predominantly or almost entirely planted with perennial ryegrass. This enjoys a reputation for high yields and high quality (proteins and sugars) but in my experience it doesn't start growing very early in the season, isn't very drought-hardy and doesn't over-winter particularly well. With changes in management I am encouraging other species, which may or may not include fescues. I've certainly never heard anyone in the UK mention fescue toxicity or endophytes.

Having said all that, we converted some arable (crop) land to pasture land a couple of years ago. Amongst the species planted I included tall fescue. Last year was the first time we grazed it. All three bulls running with the herd went lame at roughly the same time and their symptoms didn't look too dissimilar to 'fescue foot' (as per google images!) 

At the time we assumed the bulls had all injured their feet on the flints (sharp stones) as they were serving cows - I thought that as the sward was quite new, the soil structure and root mass wasn't too well developed so flints were more exposed. However with hindsight I wonder whether it was fescue foot. I've just emailed our vet to ask his opinion.

Interestingly though, we didn't have any problems with the cows so it may not have been due to the endophytes. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread.


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## Gabriel

There's been some great posting lately. 

I hope everybody has been enjoying the start of Spring! It's late for us, but I shouldn't complain.

http://www.savoryinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/21.-Zietsman-Zimbabwe.pdf


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## ycanchu2

i emailed Greg Judy with question about seeded out fescue and endophyte problems. He said any cow that don't look like this finds a new home.


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2 said:


> i emailed Greg Judy with question about seeded out fescue and endophyte problems. He said any cow that don't look like this finds a new home.












Surely the animal in this pic is a fine example that anyone would be proud to own. I would like to see some pics of his animals coming out of Winter and I would like to know what they were wintered on as to feed and supplement if any.

Here is a pic of some of my brood stock and a new calf. These cows have had no hay or supplement at anytime other than some minerals including salt. You can see the rough hair coat that I attribute to being on fescue continuously. 

I have not responded to the recent discussions regarding mob grazing compared to intensive rotational grazing. I have given the topic a lot of thought however. My conclusion is that at my place, with my limited acreage, is that I have more carrying capacity per acre than I would have with mob grazing. I have been on new grass since the first of April and what I grazed initially could if needed be grazed again in 3 days. My observation is that nearly all forage on these paddocks was grazed with almost no waste. My utilization and efficiency IMO cannot be replicated by mob grazing when acreage is limited. Carrying a cow and her calf for the entire 365 day year on 1.4 acres is not achievable where I live with mob grazing from my viewpoint. I would like to know how much acreage Greg Judy would need to accomplish this at his location. Any idea?


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## ramiller5675

agmantoo said:


> ... Carrying a cow and her calf for the entire 365 day year on 1.4 acres is not achievable where I live with mob grazing from my viewpoint. I would like to know how much acreage Greg Judy would need to accomplish this at his location. Any idea?


According to Gabriel, Judy says on his blog that he needs 1.5 acres per animal unit.

I've always thought that an animal unit was a 1000-lb dry cow, and a lactating 1000-lb cow with her calf was about 1.6 AU. (fwiw, a 1200-lb cow-calf pair would be about 1.9 AU)

So, if he can get 1.5 acres per AU with mob grazing, he would need about 2.4 acres per cow-calf pair (if his cows actually weigh 1000 lb.). If his cows are closer to 1200 lbs, he'd need almost 3 acres per pair.


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## agmantoo

ramiller5675

I have never seen where the AU acreage included the Winter months. The most common AU I have read is for a 1000 cow and a calf AU measure of 500 lbs.
I know for certain that my total forage producing acreage is 141 acres. My brood stock head count hovers around 100 head. Last year I produced 93 lives calves over a 12 month period. If I work these numbers and only allocate a 2.5 % of forage to the AU weights and with the calves being fed 7/12ths of a year then marketed the numbers indicate a hug amount of production per year from my paddocks.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> ramiller5675
> 
> I have never seen where the AU acreage included the Winter months. The most common AU I have read is for a 1000 cow and a calf AU measure of 500 lbs.
> I know for certain that my total forage producing acreage is 141 acres. My brood stock head count hovers around 100 head. Last year I produced 93 lives calves over a 12 month period. If I work these numbers and only allocate a 2.5 % of forage to the AU weights and with the calves being fed 7/12ths of a year then marketed the numbers indicate a hug amount of production per year from my paddocks.


It would seem to me that you are mob grazing in your own kind of way. With 100 cows plus calves being allotted less than one acre a day....that seems like pretty high density IMO. The main difference being is that you are keeping your grass in a vegetative state and GJ is letting his get mature. We could discuss the pros and cons all day of either way.
It is obvious that the land is improving year by year. You being able to come thru a year of very severe drought without feeding hay is a testament to what you are doing.
Within the next 30 days all of us will have mature grass to contend with, so do we clip it or let it be as Paul McCartney says. As I see it ....it will be a good time to do some experimentation.


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## Gabriel

Mob grazing is something you do _sometimes_, not all the time. When forage is scarce, you don't! In a good year, you do. Why? Because it feeds the soil. It's a long term investment into the health of your soil.


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## ycanchu2

Agmantoo...
I recall you had mentioned one time about interseeding cereal rye in the fall once...in areas that need building up. I sowed some cereal rye along with some orchardgrass in the fall of 2011. After the rye was grazed out in the following spring the OG came on and did quiet well for the first year.
This year the OG is looking even better. Do you think maybe its from all the organic matter that the rye put down in its roots and left behind after it died?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2 said:


> Agmantoo...
> I recall you had mentioned one time about interseeding cereal rye in the fall once...in areas that need building up. I sowed some cereal rye along with some orchardgrass in the fall of 2011. After the rye was grazed out in the following spring the OG came on and did quiet well for the first year.
> This year the OG is looking even better. Do you think maybe its from all the organic matter that the rye put down in its roots and left behind after it died?


I do think/know the cereal rye benefited the orchard grass but I am uncertain as to where the benefit was sourced. The cereal rye was truly a nurse crop capable of pulling nutrients to the surface to aid the shallow roots of the orchard grass to have access. I prefer to consider the cereal rye as a green manure that provides organic matter that promotes beneficial soil organisms and holds erosion in check.. Emerging orchard grass is sheltered from excessive sun and drying winds in its early stages of growth by the nurse crop. All in all the nurse crop creates and improves the growing environment minimizing stress on the establishing and developing orchard grass. Never stressing any thing that you are growing, be it animal or plant IMO, enhances the success of what is being produced.


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## CedarMoore

What is your experience with annual rye? Last year I read that if you planted rye late summer or early fall, you could pasture it as soon as Dec 15th, later plantings as early as Feb 15th. I don't remember for sure, but I thought that was for zone 7. Anyway I sowed some and it came up really well but just seemed to quit growing around 4 inches. Didn't fertilize, of course. It was late winter when I got a little growth and was able to feed it a little sooner than fescue. Overall I was disappointed. I'm sure I saved a few dollars in feed compared to the cost of the seed, but not sure if I will do it this year.


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## agmantoo

CedarMoore said:


> What is your experience with annual rye? Last year I read that if you planted rye late summer or early fall, you could pasture it as soon as Dec 15th, later plantings as early as Feb 15th. I don't remember for sure, but I thought that was for zone 7. Anyway I sowed some and it came up really well but just seemed to quit growing around 4 inches. Didn't fertilize, of course. It was late winter when I got a little growth and was able to feed it a little sooner than fescue. Overall I was disappointed. I'm sure I saved a few dollars in feed compared to the cost of the seed, but not sure if I will do it this year.


My experience with annual rye has been rewarding provided there is enough moisture in September to get it started. Late planted annual rye doesn't perform as well. I do not anticipate having a lot of late Fall grazing but I do get early Spring grazing and would make a lot of hay if I baled. I work the annual rye in concert with ky31 fescue. I stockpile fescue twice during the year. August is hot and dry and I do graze red river crabgrass where I have it established as well as fescue that I kept in a vegetative state as long as possible by clipping the tops of the fescue. The RRCG and the fescue paddocks are not going to do anything this late in the Summer and that is the areas I sow the annual ryegrass provided there is moisture. Annual rye does not compete with taller fescue and on my place will remain short until Spring. In the non-suppressed heavily grazed areas the annual rye will flourish and I can get some December grazing. I have tried substituting Orchard grass into the fescue to extend my grazing but the OG lacks sustainability and will die out within 3 years or less. Legumes, fescue, annual ryegrass, some RRCG constitute the bulk of the forages I grow. I do try to maintain a decent PH and a high nutrient level. My source for chicken litter ceased due to a fire last week. I have not determined how I will cope with this loss.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> *What is your experience with annual rye?* Last year I read that if you planted rye late summer or early fall, you could pasture it as soon as Dec 15th, later plantings as early as Feb 15th. I don't remember for sure, but I thought that was for zone 7. Anyway I sowed some and it came up really well but just seemed to quit growing around 4 inches. Didn't fertilize, of course. It was late winter when I got a little growth and was able to feed it a little sooner than fescue. Overall I was disappointed. I'm sure I saved a few dollars in feed compared to the cost of the seed, but not sure if I will do it this year.


 Are you talking about annual ryegrass or annual cereal rye?

Also agmantoo...Have you tried any Persist Orchardgrass?


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## am1too

WJMartin said:


> We are finally recieving a nice amount of rain! 3" so far, soon I'll be worried about flooding.
> 
> The grass is popping up overnight, I finally feel like I'll be able to graze the cattle sucessfully this year, just waiting to see what will need some seeding, tried not to graze too short so hoping I have good pasture. I have alot of bare areas from clearing the cedars and so far none of the seeding has come up but I'm still hoping that I have a seed base of native grasses, just need it to warm up alittle.
> 
> We have worked hard this winter to bring in some fill dirt for some wash areas and have seeded them heavily with rye and clover. Alot of wash areas we didn't even know about until we cleared the cedars off.


What grass do you have? I have never had any luck with fescue here. 

I am in Pott county. So far my best returning grass is bermuda. I am importing loads of organic material and mixing it in to my soil. Prevents washing and retains water better.


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## am1too

ycanchu2 said:


> I think it is. I forgot to mention endophyte in the question above. Iknow last year I kept my seedheads clipped but still had 2 or 3 cows with foot problems for a little while. I wonder if clipping helps that much in that regard or should we just need to keep culling those that can't take it. I'm sure Greg Judy has a lot of fescue in Missouri and doesn't clip. Wondering what kind of problems if any he has with it.


If you have wet pasture and fescue you will probably have foot problems. To keep down the endophyte it needs to be on the drier side. You must have good drainage.


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## WJMartin

am1too - I have a mixed pasture - due to drought conditions, more weeds than usual, native bunch grasses, bermuda (which I really like and have been trying to spread whenever possible) rye & fescue that I have been seeding on bare areas from clearing cedars. This year has been the best so far on the rye, I have been broadcasting and I think I should have found something to drag or roll to get better soil contact but I have been able to graze the rye this year. I can't ID for sure any fescue in the fields but we'll see. I am trying to secure some crapgrass seed this year, won't be RRCG but a simular variety. I am looking for a contractor to sprig bermuda in a 5 acre plot we just cleared, if I wasn't so lazy I'd just clean out the flower beds and sprig it myself. Crazy spring we're having but thankful for the rain.


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## Allen W

WJMartin they have some good seeded varieties of bermuda grass now. Look up Johnston seed company they are in enid OK. part of the W B Johnston elevator.


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## agmantoo

Regarding the question above on whether I used the Persist Orchard grass the answer is no. The reason is covered by this statement from an ad for the Persist
"*Orchardgrass cannot be grazed as hard and often as Ryegrass*." I need volume with the forages I grow.


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## WJMartin

Allen W - Johnston's is where I buy most of my seed. I have seeded bermuda, just haven't seen much come up, hoping for better results this year. We did sprig a bit last year and so far so good with it. I really need to get out today and take some soil samples in.


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## Allen W

WJ I think with the inconsistent rain we have been having getting any grass started is going to be hard. I have a friend who has drilled some of the bermuda seed and liked it better then sprigging but that was before the drought. The sprigs probably have a better chance of getting some started in this weather.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Regarding the question above on whether I used the Persist Orchard grass the answer is no. The reason is covered by this statement from an ad for the Persist
> "*Orchardgrass cannot be grazed as hard and often as Ryegrass*." I need volume with the forages I grow.


 I didn't see that in the ad on the main page. The persist is what I planted in the fall of 2011 with the cereal rye. Of course nothing can be grazed as hard and often as ryegrass. But when its done its done. What I like is that it is earlier than fescue in the spring. It probably doesn't stockpile as good as fescue, but its not far off. Also I grazed it every 3 to 4 weeks last year all year long. Volume was not a problem....my mistake was clipping it too short the first couple of times.
I like ryegrass a lot, but I seem to have difficulty getting a decent stand in the fall unless I cut up the ground pretty good with a disk or use a no-till drill


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## bigbluegrass

ycanchu2 said:


> I didn't see that in the ad on the main page. The persist is what I planted in the fall of 2011 with the cereal rye. Of course nothing can be grazed as hard and often as ryegrass. But when its done its done. What I like is that it is earlier than fescue in the spring. It probably doesn't stockpile as good as fescue, but its not far off. Also I grazed it every 3 to 4 weeks last year all year long. Volume was not a problem....my mistake was clipping it too short the first couple of times.
> I like ryegrass a lot, but I seem to have difficulty getting a decent stand in the fall unless I cut up the ground pretty good with a disk or use a no-till drill


Orchard grass cannot be grazed as low as fescue or ryegrass. I have quite a bit of orchardgrass. If you graze it below 4" it is really slow to regrow. If you graze it below 2" you will kill it or at least kill part of it. Fescue can be grazed down to 2" and still come back (not recommended but a lot of people do it). Ryegrass can be grazed to nothing and come back - at least mine seems to grow back from dust. If you don't overgraze orchard grass it is a great grass. I planted persist last year, so I don't have any experience with that variety. I have a lot of volunteer orchard grass. It does start early - mine will get ahead of the ryegrass and fescue this time of year - it is my main grass right now. It grows faster and puts on more forage by far than fescue or ryegrass (during spring growth) - if it isn't grazed down to nothing. If you graze it low, it starts really slow and by the time it gets growing good it is putting up a seedhead and slowing down. It is supposed to stockpile great - just don't graze it low... Our extension agent explained that orchard grass stores a lot of it's reserve energy above the ground in the lower part of the leaf structure. If you look at the mature grass you will see it is brown above the ground. That is where the energy is stored. Cows will eat that. You have got to get them moved before they eat down that far if you want orchard grass - or if you don't want it, graze lower which favors fescue and ryegrass.


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## ycanchu2

bigbluegrass said:


> Orchard grass cannot be grazed as low as fescue or ryegrass. I have quite a bit of orchardgrass. If you graze it below 4" it is really slow to regrow. If you graze it below 2" you will kill it or at least kill part of it. Fescue can be grazed down to 2" and still come back (not recommended but a lot of people do it). Ryegrass can be grazed to nothing and come back - at least mine seems to grow back from dust. If you don't overgraze orchard grass it is a great grass. I planted persist last year, so I don't have any experience with that variety. I have a lot of volunteer orchard grass. It does start early - mine will get ahead of the ryegrass and fescue this time of year - it is my main grass right now. It grows faster and puts on more forage by far than fescue or ryegrass (during spring growth) - if it isn't grazed down to nothing. If you graze it low, it starts really slow and by the time it gets growing good it is putting up a seedhead and slowing down. It is supposed to stockpile great - just don't graze it low... Our extension agent explained that orchard grass stores a lot of it's reserve energy above the ground in the lower part of the leaf structure. If you look at the mature grass you will see it is brown above the ground. That is where the energy is stored. Cows will eat that. You have got to get them moved before they eat down that far if you want orchard grass - or if you don't want it, graze lower which favors fescue and ryegrass.


 Good post


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## CedarMoore

I drag manure everyday with a homemade drag on my fourwheeler. At the same time I pick up rock. It's just easy to do and doesn't take much time. However I noticed that I now have dung beetles. Guess it's a byproduct of intensive grazing and/or better mangement of the pastures. I saw them the day after the cattle were wormed and have continued to seem in the following couple of weeks. I'm surprised the wormer didn't kill them. Next worming period, I will use a more friendly wormer that is suppose to not kill beetles, but it will probably kill earthworms. I know some of you don't worm at all, maybe I follow suit one of these years because I want the beetles.

So what to ya'll think about daily manure dragging? Will it upset the dung beetle population? Dragging just knocks the tops off, it appears the beetles are still there and doing their thing.


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## agmantoo

Why not lag the cattle a couple of days with the dragging? This is my first year of having a quantity of dung beetles and I have been observing them closely. It is the freshest dung that attracts them the most. I see that within a few days the beetles have left the aging patties and have moved on to follow the herd. The beetles are depositing the dung in the small tunnels under the dung for their young to live on after hatching. I read the statement regarding the one wormer that is not suppose to kill the beetles. However reading closely the test was done on adult beetles and what I read the wormer did not significantly kill the adult beetles but there was no comment on the young. I have ceased to worm the herd as a whole. If I were to revert to whole herd worming I would do it in the winter and hope that the wormer would lose its impact before spring when the beetles become active again. Healthy cattle should tolerate some parasites without a noticeable impact. Do you see anyone worming the deer herd?

This is the type of dung beetle that I am seeing. Here is a description
O. taurus has been utilized in the breakdown of manure on sheep and dairy farms worldwide. In early 2012, new colonies of O. taurus were introduced in New Zealand to reduce the amount of manure that has congested over 600,000 hectares of available grazing land. These beetles pull the manure into the ground to create their brood balls, or egg chambers. This increases grazing space for cattle, reduces habitats for flies and bacteria, and reduces the need for chemical fertilizers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Onthophagus_taurus_male_and_female_comparison.jpg


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## randyandmegs

I had similar questions last week and never finished typing the post. I can tell you that I use Cydectin pour on wormer that does not harm Dung Beetles or earth worms. I have been taking care of my dung beetles for several years now. There is also a new injectable long lasting wormer call Long Range (I think) that my vet says does not harm the dung beetles as well, but you do have to get a prescription for it. Cost 1 cent per pound. 
I found and repaired a 10 X 8 old drag I found here in the woods the down side of using this is having to use the tractor and with as much rain as we have had I didn't want to put the heavy tractor out in the field. I went ahead and bought a new 4 x 4 chain harrow to pull behind the ATV. That thing is an animal with the tines down and way to hard on my 500cc ATV. I flipped it over and its easier on the ATV but doesn't get the pat as well and I have to make several passes. Agmantoo's advice makes sense on waiting a few days as those beetles will take most of the pat down into the ground by then. A huge mistake I made was not dragging during the winter time which has now caused all these dark green spots the cows wont eat. 

Agmantoo- are you clipping Fescue yet? I notice some of mine is starting to seed out and I planned to start clipping this week.


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## randyandmegs

Picture of my new small framed bull PCC TQ Hoppers


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## agmantoo

*Agmantoo- are you clipping Fescue yet? I notice some of mine is starting to seed out and I planned to start clipping this week.*

Not yet, but if it was not raining I would be. What orchard grass I have is heading and the fescue is not far behind. My cattle have started to shed their winter coat and the heifers that had a calf to feed are also putting on weight. 

How about posting a few more pics of the bull. I would like to see him broadside and from the rear.


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## Awnry Abe

Our fescue is just springing back. I am wondering why the delay. Overgrazed it a bit last fall but not too bad. We haven't had many days above 60 yet this spring, but there have been a few really nice days. Our drought didn't end until we got a real heavy snow at the end of February. The ground has been wet ever since. Then winter started in earnest and has really stuck around. The daytime high forecast Thursday is 43. We may actually have early morning snow. In May.

--by the way, I just turned the cows back on to the grass this afternoon after work. I had them wintering on a sacrifice pasture since the end of December. The first paddock has thick, bushy fescue, with just a wee bit of thinning between clumps. I'm just a nube, so getting the feel for the right time to start them is a challenge for me. This year I erred on the side of late.


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## CedarMoore

Thanks for the replies. Altering my routine and delaying the dragging for a couple days is a good suggestion. I will give that a try. Cydectin was the wormer I had read about. Glad to hear your sucess with it. 

Agman, old mindsets are hard to break. Don't you know that you have to fertilize, spray for weeds, feed hay five months out of the year, and worm your cattle to make money? 

I was going to ask the same question if anyone was clipping their pastures yet. My grasses are forming seedheads. Guess I will start soon.


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## WJMartin

I would clip my just established fescue but it is only 3-4 inches! Is it normal for fescue to head out when it's this short? 

Crazy weather, looks like we could get SNOW this week!


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo,
The pictures from the back and front come up sideways on this site. I'm using windows 8 and cant figure out how to rotate them yet.
Numbers (some) using PCC scoring criteria
Birth Date 3/21/12 BW 73, 205 weight 496 365 weight 947
Frame score S
Disposition 4+*
Fleshing 5*
Calving Ease 5*
Thickness 4+*
Muscling 4*
Masculinity 4*
Dam Udder 4*
Marbling 90
Tenderness 25


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## Gabriel

randyandmegs, welcome to the PCC club! If you haven't already, email Kit and make sure you're on the email discussion group.


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## am1too

agmantoo said:


> Why not lag the cattle a couple of days with the dragging? This is my first year of having a quantity of dung beetles and I have been observing them closely. It is the freshest dung that attracts them the most. I see that within a few days the beetles have left the aging patties and have moved on to follow the herd. The beetles are depositing the dung in the small tunnels under the dung for their young to live on after hatching. I read the statement regarding the one wormer that is not suppose to kill the beetles. However reading closely the test was done on adult beetles and what I read the wormer did not significantly kill the adult beetles but there was no comment on the young. I have ceased to worm the herd as a whole. If I were to revert to whole herd worming I would do it in the winter and hope that the wormer would lose its impact before spring when the beetles become active again. Healthy cattle should tolerate some parasites without a noticeable impact. Do you see anyone worming the deer herd?
> 
> This is the type of dung beetle that I am seeing. Here is a description
> O. taurus has been utilized in the breakdown of manure on sheep and dairy farms worldwide. In early 2012, new colonies of O. taurus were introduced in New Zealand to reduce the amount of manure that has congested over 600,000 hectares of available grazing land. These beetles pull the manure into the ground to create their brood balls, or egg chambers. This increases grazing space for cattle, reduces habitats for flies and bacteria, and reduces the need for chemical fertilizers.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Onthophagus_taurus_male_and_female_comparison.jpg


Deer do not over graze like cattle are forced to do. Deer eat nothing down to the dirt like overgrazed pastures.


----------



## am1too

WJMartin said:


> am1too - I have a mixed pasture - due to drought conditions, more weeds than usual, native bunch grasses, bermuda (which I really like and have been trying to spread whenever possible) rye & fescue that I have been seeding on bare areas from clearing cedars. This year has been the best so far on the rye, I have been broadcasting and I think I should have found something to drag or roll to get better soil contact but I have been able to graze the rye this year. I can't ID for sure any fescue in the fields but we'll see. I am trying to secure some crapgrass seed this year, won't be RRCG but a simular variety. I am looking for a contractor to sprig bermuda in a 5 acre plot we just cleared, if I wasn't so lazy I'd just clean out the flower beds and sprig it myself. Crazy spring we're having but thankful for the rain.


The very samll amount of fescue that has returned has had mold on it for the last 2 weeks at my place. Couple years ago I ask the county extension agent about it. I think he said to apply something one it. My understanding is animal do poorer on fescue than other grasses. In fact horse mix grass seed does not have fescue in it. I just got tired of reseeding it every year to have grass. Quite a racket if you ask me. The people selling it are citiots and not farmers and ranchers. They wanted to sell me seed and a boat load of chemicals (for short term results) causing me to buy more chemicals. I said no thanks. Proper soil restoration will wok better. This is done with organic matter. I used to burn all my brush. No more. It gets hogged to splinters. Very vital to soil health. Where I have done this there is no visible debris after a year maybe two.


----------



## am1too

WJMartin said:


> Allen W - Johnston's is where I buy most of my seed. I have seeded bermuda, just haven't seen much come up, hoping for better results this year. We did sprig a bit last year and so far so good with it. I really need to get out today and take some soil samples in.


I had a neighbor complain about not being able to get grass to grow. I pooped of with if there was not anything to eat I would not be there either.

He tilled in compost as I recommmended and viola - grass. This is also where my best grass patches are located.


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## am1too

bigbluegrass said:


> Orchard grass cannot be grazed as low as fescue or ryegrass. I have quite a bit of orchardgrass. If you graze it below 4" it is really slow to regrow. If you graze it below 2" you will kill it or at least kill part of it. Fescue can be grazed down to 2" and still come back (not recommended but a lot of people do it). Ryegrass can be grazed to nothing and come back - at least mine seems to grow back from dust. If you don't overgraze orchard grass it is a great grass. I planted persist last year, so I don't have any experience with that variety. I have a lot of volunteer orchard grass. It does start early - mine will get ahead of the ryegrass and fescue this time of year - it is my main grass right now. It grows faster and puts on more forage by far than fescue or ryegrass (during spring growth) - if it isn't grazed down to nothing. If you graze it low, it starts really slow and by the time it gets growing good it is putting up a seedhead and slowing down. It is supposed to stockpile great - just don't graze it low... Our extension agent explained that orchard grass stores a lot of it's reserve energy above the ground in the lower part of the leaf structure. If you look at the mature grass you will see it is brown above the ground. That is where the energy is stored. Cows will eat that. You have got to get them moved before they eat down that far if you want orchard grass - or if you don't want it, graze lower which favors fescue and ryegrass.


Isn't part of the profit picutrue not having to worm cattle from grazing pasture short?


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## randyandmegs

I do not have a closed herd yet. As I bring in animals I do treat all of them and quarenteen them for at least one month.


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## ycanchu2

am1too said:


> I had a neighbor complain about not being able to get grass to grow. I pooped of with if there was not anything to eat I would not be there either.
> 
> He tilled in compost as I recommmended and viola - grass. This is also where my best grass patches are located.


 Compost is great stuff.....but how do you get enough of it? If you feed a lot of hay you can make some from the waste but still it doesn't go very far and if you are trying to get away from feeding hay, where do you get large volumes?.
I think something like cereal rye in the fall will add as much organic matter as compost....the deep roots will give the soil tilth and leave lots of OG when it dies off. Where I planted some fall before last I now have an excellent field of orchardgrass. wish I had done more of it. I plan on doing some more this fall.


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## haypoint

am1too said:


> Isn't part of the profit picutrue not having to worm cattle from grazing pasture short?


 Many parasitic worms get a ways up on the grass, so I don't agree that rotational pasture will eliminate a parasite problem.


----------



## agmantoo

am1too,
Your comment *The very samll amount of fescue that has returned has had mold on it for the last 2 weeks at my place.*

Any recall as to the variety of fescue?


----------



## CesumPec

haypoint said:


> Many parasitic worms get a ways up on the grass, so I don't agree that rotational pasture will eliminate a parasite problem.


I read on the UF website that the parasites rarely get higher than 2 inches up the grass, so move the livestock well before then and you get few worm probs. Maybe the are wrong or maybe it is just Florida grasses and bugs? All I know is that my two horses do not get wormed and stayed fairly plump until one of them needed her teeth floated. I don't have cattle yet.


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## agmantoo

Anyone needing to repair or to seed small areas in the pasture IMO should consider having one of these seeders. This seeder will broadcast very small to large seed and do it accurately and inexpensively. My old broadcast seeder had the bag to fail years ago and until now I could not locate a replacement. This one is made in China but it does work and has what seems to date a better bag than the old one.
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-9969-tool-broadcast-spreader.aspx


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## randyandmegs

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlnDfWWeJd8[/ame]

Portable mineral feeder I made yesterday.


----------



## ramiller5675

randyandmegs said:


> Portable mineral feeder I made yesterday.


I've got some hanging mineral feeders made out of barrels like that that I hang from posts near the water source (with an offset angle iron bracket to get them away from the post).

I usually make the hole about 20" in diameter, just measure up about 20 inches or so from the bottom, put in a nail and use a piece of string to made a 20" circle. Cut it out with a jigsaw, and save the cut out piece to mark the next one you make.

Hang it from an eyebolt put into the top edge away from the hole and since it is hanging at an angle the water will usually stay out of it.


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## CesumPec

randyandmegs said:


> Portable mineral feeder I made yesterday.


You don't have to worry about rain getting inside and ruining the minerals?


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## randyandmegs

I will let you know. They are very popular around here. The Cattlemans associations are building and selling them to make money for their groups.


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## gwithrow

I have six of them, and so far I really like them, and I really like getting them from the Cattleman's assoc...it helps their scholarship fund and makes our rotational grazing program easier...I have one at each watering station....as to the rain getting in, most of our weather comes from the West or SW so I keep the opening turned a different way, but they don't seem to get too wet on the inisde...

they are pretty stable, though today there was some pushing and shoving at the waterer and one turned on its side...now they will have to lick minerals off the ground...not too happy about that...but that was the first time we have had any of that business


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## SuperDog

I'd like to see a picture of those hanging mineral feeders.


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## am1too

ycanchu2 said:


> Compost is great stuff.....but how do you get enough of it? If you feed a lot of hay you can make some from the waste but still it doesn't go very far and if you are trying to get away from feeding hay, where do you get large volumes?.
> I think something like cereal rye in the fall will add as much organic matter as compost....the deep roots will give the soil tilth and leave lots of OG when it dies off. Where I planted some fall before last I now have an excellent field of orchardgrass. wish I had done more of it. I plan on doing some more this fall.


I load mine for free at a near by town compost yard in April and September/October. I usually can get all I can load and haul. Therest of the time they will load my trailer with wood chips or grinder tub offal for free. Summers is the best. I stock pile it. Do use some as mulch. It is a 50 mile round trip. But still cheaper than I can make it myself. 

Other sources are the bagged grass and leaves setting at the curb. I picked up road kill a couple times. I get 4 -21 yards of horse stall cleanings every week 14 miles round trip). Have a 100 yards waiting for green grass to compost. I'll mix it bout 1 part grass to 3 parts horse stall cleanings.


----------



## am1too

agmantoo said:


> am1too,
> Your comment *The very samll amount of fescue that has returned has had mold on it for the last 2 weeks at my place.*
> 
> Any recall as to the variety of fescue?


Some flavor of KY31 as commonly sold here. Next time I go to town I'll get the name off the sack. Some volunteer wheat is head high though. My bermuda is almost waist high. Oh weeds are closing in. Am starting to spread the horse stall cleanings bout 2 inches thick. Has lots of hay and bout 90.% pine saw dust with no race horse drugs in it. Already sporting grass. This is over red clay subsoil. Wood chips go in all the washes. Get covered with dirt as rain washes it in.


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## randyandmegs

It worked well today with 1/2" of rain. I'm in an odd spot coming around the end of my lane and would have to run them up the lane for the next several moves. By taking the minerals to them (already have a water hydrant at the end) I kept them out of the lane. 
While moving the mineral feeder I noticed one of the heifers was missing and found her with our first ever calf pictured below from any of the cows I own outright. 

Agmantoo here are better pictures of the bull.


----------



## ramiller5675

SuperDog said:


> I'd like to see a picture of those hanging mineral feeders.


I got the idea from the Cattle Today Forum, for a picture try going to: http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21388

I like a round hole better than a square hole, use an eyebolt with some big washers in the barrel, and a chain with a snap swivel to hang it (so it can turn with the wind).


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## gwithrow

so now we have more rain coming...I am truly not complaining, but more moisture presents a problem that we don't often have to deal with....I only have so many hillside pastures that are not soggy....and of course it is way way too wet to clip any forming seed heads off the fescue...

I have my 'walk about seeder' filled and I am reseeding the badly bunged up places, but what other advice does anyone have about dealing with very wet pasture lands.??...

we have loads of grass, thankfully, and the cows are rotating right along...somedays two paddocks but I want them to eat the oncoming lespedeza also so I don't want to move them too quickly...but the grass is getting BIG in the areas that they have not gotten to yet....and the lanes are really taking a hit ...do I just keep seeding behind them...I am sure all will recover in time, but I certainly want to do my part...to help avoid damage.....


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

You are going to be pleasantly surprised at how fast the mucked areas recover. 

My fescue is in the same stage of growth as yours. With the weather I have noticed that the stems are the main components with few leaves. Once the rain is behind us I will resume mowing and I will clip down to the leaf tops. Since the seed heads are still in the dough stage I am of the opinion we will get some regrowth.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

That definitely is a better picture and the bull is impressive. I would like to see his shoulders and scrotum when you take some more pics.

I see he has an appetite for clover.


----------



## CedarMoore

How many people on this site have a Pharo bull? What would the expected price to pay including shipping? Any problems with feeding fescue? How are the results with kept heifers?

I have have some large registered Angus that I would like to downsize and keep some heifers. I may even have to bred the heifers to a another small bull to eventually get the size that I want because the some the the cows are so large. Any thoughts? For the past few years I have kept my neighbor's bull in his off breeding time. It's a moderate size bull but I don't think I am improving my herd like I want.


----------



## randyandmegs

I do of course but time will tell how he does. Doesn't seem to be much middle of the road opinion with PCC. Either you see really positive comments or a lot of bashing however I have never seen anyone that actually owns a bull from them have negative comments (I'm sure they are out there just as with any seed stock producer) just the arm chair quarterbacks that watch the sale on TV and pretty much call everyone stupid for buying from them. PCC philosophy is very close to what Agmantoo has been teaching us for years on here, the only big difference I see is year round calving versus PCC pushing spring calving and I agree with both sides but only if your are as strict as Agmantoo is about culling and not being a midwife to the cows. I would suggest if you are interested and have fescue then look at the Fescue sale they have in the spring. I initially purchased one from that sale and completely screwed it up bidding on the wrong bull but Kit worked out a deal with me and made it right and I didn't have to take the bull and I ended up getting one from the Burlington sale. After the quick sort Kit sent someone out to look at hair coats of those I picked and I narrowed it down a bit more. Other than Canadian buyers I would imagine I paid the most for shipping to NC which was $450 and I'm pretty sure that is the highest cost to ship in the US. Looking online at the catalog you would be on the same route as me and depending on where in KY you are you would be looking at 300-400 for delivery, guessing looking at the prices around you.I did have a grant to purchase my bull which made a difference. 
It's all about if you believe in that philosophy and want to be a low input producer like Agmantoo in my opinion. It all makes sense to me as I see our current farm that has not made a profit in likely 40 years since my family had a dairy and seeing so many family farms sold off due to lack of profitability. That's a lot more than you asked for but It's my 2 cents. I do know there are at least 2 people on here that own them and they can help you out better than me.


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## Gabriel

CedarMoore said:


> How many people on this site have a Pharo bull?


I have a Red Angus.



> What would the expected price to pay including shipping? Any problems with feeding fescue? How are the results with kept heifers?


Price: how picky are you? Read through their latest catalog, it's online. They've posted the prices that the bulls sold for, so you can see the ones that you'd like and know roughly what you'd have to pay to get it. Play with the quick sort option, unless you just really like reading the sale catalog... 

No Fescue problems with mine, at least so far. I got him in the fall sale (recommended for any long distance purchase btw) of 2011. Have only seen 3 of his calves hit the ground so far so cannot comment on quality. Was only able to increase the herd size this last fall, so this summer will be his first significant breeding season. 



> I have have some large registered Angus that I would like to downsize and keep some heifers. I may even have to bred the heifers to a another small bull to eventually get the size that I want because the some the the cows are so large. Any thoughts? For the past few years I have kept my neighbor's bull in his off breeding time. It's a moderate size bull but I don't think I am improving my herd like I want.


If they're really large and you're in a hurry to downsize, have you considered AI to a lowline? That would get you the best quality for the money spent. 

I will say that being on the PCC email discussion list is quite possibly the best thing about being a customer.


----------



## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> randyandmegs
> 
> That definitely is a better picture and the bull is impressive. I would like to see his shoulders and scrotum when you take some more pics.
> 
> I see he has an appetite for clover.


He is too busy after the ladies to get an accurate shoulder picture I will try again tomorrow.


----------



## CedarMoore

Thanks for the response on Pharo. I looked at the website, it was informative. Hope y'all have good luck with the offspring of your bulls. Keep us up to date.

Gabriel, what are your plans on the Red Angus bull? Are you breeding him to black cows? Do you want a herd of reds, blacks, both?

An update on dragging and dung beetles. I waited a couple of days to drag manure, and due to the beetles, there was very little left to drag. I use a 4'X6' section of a cattle panel nailed to 4X4s, so it just smears the top of the manure. After a couple of days the drag doesn't touch the manure. The beetles are doing such a good job, I will wait and drag the entire pasture with my 12' drag after the cattle are off. I may go back to daily dragging during the winter.


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## ycanchu2

CedarMoore said:


> Thanks for the response on Pharo. I looked at the website, it was informative. Hope y'all have good luck with the offspring of your bulls. Keep us up to date.
> 
> Gabriel, what are your plans on the Red Angus bull? Are you breeding him to black cows? Do you want a herd of reds, blacks, both?
> 
> An update on dragging and dung beetles. I waited a couple of days to drag manure, and due to the beetles, there was very little left to drag. I use a 4'X6' section of a cattle panel nailed to 4X4s, so it just smears the top of the manure. After a couple of days the drag doesn't touch the manure. The beetles are doing such a good job, I will wait and drag the entire pasture with my 12' drag after the cattle are off. I may go back to daily dragging during the winter.


 What do the dung beatles look like......how do you know if you've got them?


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## agmantoo

scroll down at this site to see pics of dung beetles. The variety Onthophagus taurus is the new arrival to my place.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/ent/notes/forage/guidetoncdungbeetles.pdf


----------



## am1too

agmantoo said:


> am1too,
> Your comment *The very samll amount of fescue that has returned has had mold on it for the last 2 weeks at my place.*
> 
> Any recall as to the variety of fescue?


As promised I would get the correct name when I went to town. 

It is Kentucy 31.

It still has mold on it..


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## am1too

I am very disappointed in all the grass seed I have purchased.

I am wondering if I can trim the seed tops off of grass that is doing well while it is green, would it grow. Or do I need to wait for it to turn borwn?

My alternative is to sod or plug the current grass.


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## agmantoo

am1too
If moisture remains and you clip the seed tops from the KY31, the fescue will remain vegetative and will grow. The fescue will not however regenerate the quantity of seed that is present now. I clip fescue to keep it green and to minimize the amount of endophyte that is concentrated in the seedhead. Additionally, by allowing the cattle to only graze down to approximately 3 to 4 inches height will further reduce the endophyte intake. Will Brome grass grow in your location?


----------



## am1too

agmantoo said:


> am1too
> If moisture remains and you clip the seed tops from the KY31, the fescue will remain vegetative and will grow. The fescue will not however regenerate the quantity of seed that is present now. I clip fescue to keep it green and to minimize the amount of endophyte that is concentrated in the seedhead. Additionally, by allowing the cattle to only graze down to approximately 3 to 4 inches height will further reduce the endophyte intake. Will Brome grass grow in your location?


I do not know if Brome will grow here. Must check the list again. I have not seen its seed for sale here. Many here go nuts over bemuda. My bermuda is bout waist high presetly.

I am sure one of my previous problem was cutting the pasture grass to short.

What I do not understand is how the fescue lawns here seem to do well. They are always cut very close.

Here basicly 3 grasses are used bermuda - rye - fescue. 

I am not able to irrigate. Water retention is a primary reason I am putting tons of organic matter into the soil.


----------



## WJMartin

am1too - What are you using for organic matter?

I love the bermuda here but I must be far north of you as ours is just beginning to grow. I walk the pastures every day looking to see if it has grown overnight. lol We've just been too cold for it to get going but thankfully we have been getting some good rain and the temps are getting warmer. Would love to see it even 4 inches tall. 

This year must have been perfect for sprouting fescue seed, I've been planting for two years and this year it's coming up all over but at 4 inches started putting on seed heads, don't know how the cattle will handle it but they aren't too interested in eating it so we'll just wait and see.

I'm trying to secure some of the tall crabgrass seed, have heard it does well here. I know the common crabgrass does well, can't keep it out of the garden.


----------



## am1too

WJMartin said:


> am1too - What are you using for organic matter?
> 
> I love the bermuda here but I must be far north of you as ours is just beginning to grow. I walk the pastures every day looking to see if it has grown overnight. lol We've just been too cold for it to get going but thankfully we have been getting some good rain and the temps are getting warmer. Would love to see it even 4 inches tall.
> 
> This year must have been perfect for sprouting fescue seed, I've been planting for two years and this year it's coming up all over but at 4 inches started putting on seed heads, don't know how the cattle will handle it but they aren't too interested in eating it so we'll just wait and see.
> 
> I'm trying to secure some of the tall crabgrass seed, have heard it does well here. I know the common crabgrass does well, can't keep it out of the garden.


Iam half way between Norman and Shawnee.

I get all the organic matter I can haul from the Norman comspost yard. I load the compost for free. They will load gringer tub offal for free. This is the same stuff that is composted. They will load tree trimmer chips for free. If they load the compost it is $10 a scoop (3-4 yards). I have to screen out some trash. Not real bad, maybe 2 gallons worth. That also gets the big sticks and leaves very fine compost. I net about half to fine material. The big stuff gets piled and rescreened in bout a year or dumped in a low spot covered with soil. Grass does really good there.

Currently getting 4 -21 yards of horse stall cleanings every week. I can spread it bout 1-2 inches ahd grass grows through it. I also stock pile it to mix with green material for compost. Since I am a very successful weed farmer I have plenty green material. I also will be picking up bagged grass at about 6 yards at a time.


----------



## am1too

agmantoo said:


> am1too
> If moisture remains and you clip the seed tops from the KY31, the fescue will remain vegetative and will grow. The fescue will not however regenerate the quantity of seed that is present now. I clip fescue to keep it green and to minimize the amount of endophyte that is concentrated in the seedhead. Additionally, by allowing the cattle to only graze down to approximately 3 to 4 inches height will further reduce the endophyte intake. Will Brome grass grow in your location?


I was really wanting to know about the seed. I am sure the grass would continue to grow. Sorry about my poor communication.

Part of my problem with fescue is I want to pasture goats and the endophyte is a real problem for them.


----------



## SCRancher

you could try texoma max Q fescue. expensive compared to ky31. No toxicity with max Q.


----------



## am1too

SCRancher said:


> you could try texoma max Q fescue. expensive compared to ky31. No toxicity with max Q.


Is not available locally. Do you know where to get the seed? I will check the net for a dealer. 

thanks


----------



## gwithrow

it has been way too wet to clip, or trim anything out here...a tractor would just do a lot of damage and make big ruts, so our cows are now working on a pasture that has grasses shoulder high, on them, and vetch that is waist high on me.....small amounts of vetch.... and clover that is knee deep....they are trampling a lot down....it is above all the interior paddock lines....and eating a lot as well...but a LOT has been walked down..

the fescue is as lush as I ever remember and the orchard grass as well...I don't even know if I could set the bush hog high enough to just clip the seedheads off...but after nearly 6 inches of rain last week it will still be a few more days or a week until things dry out enough to put a heavy machine on the ground...

so I have made the paddock areas as small as possible to try to force them to eat it evenly...however now I am concerned about where they have trampled the tall grasses down...will this smother out new growth?...or will some of those grasses spring back up when the cows move on?

I consider every single rotation as prepping for a drought....we have had a lot of rain this spring and I am grateful...not complaining at all....but I realized today that I would like some thoughts on managing in the good times since we have lots of info on managing the dryer seasons....

the areas that were first in the rotation are already recovered but will have to be saved for another month at least...and I am more than delighted to say, that we have dung beetles going strong out here...

so I welcome some discussion on managing in the wet, and lush growth times


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## Gabriel

Got too much growth? Trample it. It's the cheapest way to return it to the soil and it does a great job of feeding all the microbes that you want. Sounds like you're doing the right thing to me. You can let them trample too much, but that can be solved by giving them more room per move. But overall, trampling has worked well for me.


----------



## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> it has been way too wet to clip, or trim anything out here...a tractor would just do a lot of damage and make big ruts, so our cows are now working on a pasture that has grasses shoulder high, on them, and vetch that is waist high on me.....small amounts of vetch.... and clover that is knee deep....they are trampling a lot down....it is above all the interior paddock lines....and eating a lot as well...but a LOT has been walked down..
> 
> the fescue is as lush as I ever remember and the orchard grass as well...I don't even know if I could set the bush hog high enough to just clip the seedheads off...but after nearly 6 inches of rain last week it will still be a few more days or a week until things dry out enough to put a heavy machine on the ground...
> 
> so I have made the paddock areas as small as possible to try to force them to eat it evenly...however now I am concerned about where they have trampled the tall grasses down...will this smother out new growth?...or will some of those grasses spring back up when the cows move on?
> 
> I consider every single rotation as prepping for a drought....we have had a lot of rain this spring and I am grateful...not complaining at all....but I realized today that I would like some thoughts on managing in the good times since we have lots of info on managing the dryer seasons....
> 
> the areas that were first in the rotation are already recovered but will have to be saved for another month at least...and I am more than delighted to say, that we have dung beetles going strong out here...
> 
> so I welcome some discussion on managing in the wet, and lush growth times


 I'll give you my 2cents. Don't worry about it. What you are doing is mob grazing even though its not on purpose. In mob grazing they say you want to tromp down about 1/2 of it. You are just adding carbon back to the soil and covering it and supplying food for the soil life, earthworms etc.
I have let about 2/3rds of my grass grow up on purpose. I have clipped some that was thin hoping it might thicken up. This is my 2nd year so I'm still recovering from years of continuous grazing, but it all looks better than last year. The foot problems aren't as bad as they were last year even though the cows are eating on mature fescue however, it is still green and growing. If it turns brown before I get to it things may change, don't know if the endophyte is worse in completely dry brown seedheads or not. I'm looking to do longer rotations like 80 to 100 days if I can instead of the 30 day rotations I did last year. It is a journey ain't it.


----------



## randyandmegs

We will be able to do a good comparison on clipping versus trampling being so close to one another I just finished up clipping half of my total grazing area, that part that I haven't made it to yet this year. Seems no matter what size I made the grazing area they are starting to not eating the mature seeded out fescue.


----------



## gwithrow

thanks... in some places I can see where the cows are clipping for me, just nipping off the seedheads as they walk along....it is a process, and I, like most of you , can see that it is a superior method to move the cows often....a little more time consuming but not much and once the paddocks and lanes are in place, it is pretty easy....and we are seeing the wonderful effects of the past three years work...the rain has not hurt either....

now my Parmak Solar 12 charger does not seem to be putting out much zap at all...it registers in the green on the meter, ...any ideas here...could it be the very heavy 'weed' load...actually that would be grass load?....it has a small bite, but that is it...and since the cows can't really see the wires, they are right up on them before they realize....and I have a big boy bull calf, who romped right through several paddock wires yesterday before he found himself on the wrong side of all of them....that made a little more work for me, but when I left them last night he was with the others and the wires were restored...I think if the charger was working correctly, he wouldn't have been quite so enthusiastic...


----------



## SCRancher

am1too said:


> Is not available locally. Do you know where to get the seed? I will check the net for a dealer.
> 
> thanks


am1too: I went to the local farm store and they ordered it for me - they also do custom cropping so I also paid for them to plant it for me since I don't have the equipment to plant it and the seed IMO is too expensive to broadcast except in small damaged areas where I can work it into the soil.

At the time of my planting the Texoma variety was not available only the Jessup variety. According to my research the Texoma is more drought resistant and hardier then the Jessup variety. The Texoma variety is SUPPOSED to be more vigorous then KY31, I don't have any first hand experience with the Texoma variety yet.


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> thanks... in some places I can see where the cows are clipping for me, just nipping off the seedheads as they walk along....it is a process, and I, like most of you , can see that it is a superior method to move the cows often....a little more time consuming but not much and once the paddocks and lanes are in place, it is pretty easy....and we are seeing the wonderful effects of the past three years work...the rain has not hurt either....
> 
> now my Parmak Solar 12 charger does not seem to be putting out much zap at all...it registers in the green on the meter, ...any ideas here...could it be the very heavy 'weed' load...actually that would be grass load?....it has a small bite, but that is it...and since the cows can't really see the wires, they are right up on them before they realize....and I have a big boy bull calf, who romped right through several paddock wires yesterday before he found himself on the wrong side of all of them....that made a little more work for me, but when I left them last night he was with the others and the wires were restored...I think if the charger was working correctly, he wouldn't have been quite so enthusiastic...


 I heard Greg Judy say in one of his videos that he runs his ATV along side of where he moves the new paddock fence knocking down the grass next to the fence so the cows would be able to see it.
About the chargers ....is there any way you can use an electric one? I have a parmak solar and electric. The electric is way hotter and last longer and much cheaper as you probably know.


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## am1too

ycanchu2 said:


> I heard Greg Judy say in one of his videos that he runs his ATV along side of where he moves the new paddock fence knocking down the grass next to the fence so the cows would be able to see it.
> About the chargers ....is there any way you can use an electric one? I have a parmak solar and electric. The electric is way hotter and last longer and much cheaper as you probably know.


When I was a kid on the farm my weekly job was to walk the fence and keep the green stuff off of it. I think an electric fence is is not something one puts up and forgets about til the cows get out. Even my neighbor checks his 4 strand barb wire fence.


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## gwithrow

don't have an ATV...I wish I did///but for now the legs will have to do...and we are putting insulators up today and tomorrow to run the electric all the way down into this area....this is where I need a good farm hand...however that would be me..

everything, including us,needs maintenance...for sure...and this year I must say the grass under the semi permanent lines just got ahead of us...and now it is almost too much to try to beat it back, the cows will do it as they rotate...and fortunately, the big cows are quite respectful of the lines...even the loose ones...and the not too hot ones, some days I think I could just use shoelaces and they would be good...it is those bad babies that haven't quite gotten it yet...imagine their surprise in another few days...when we turn on the big boy charger....

another note: we are seeing the results of tedious hand spraying of the crownbeard ...that we did last fall....and we are on that like white on rice.....this spring...I am following the rotation daily with hand spraying of only the noxious stuff...field wide spraying might be nice, but I think it would do in all my clover...and other desirables....hopefully next year will only need touch ups to keep this under control....


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

How old is the solar charger battery? When the solar charger is not in use do you leave the collector to where it is in the sun?


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## bigbluegrass

I have excess grass as well right now. The orchard grass is 2' to 3' tall (over the top of the step in posts) at the seedhead. The actual forage is 18" to 24" tall. It is very thick. The clover isn't as thick as last year, but still makes up at least 40% of the forage. 

I have a hard time mowing most of my land, because it is a steep hillside. So I normally only mow the hill tops. The hill sides I let the cows trample what they don't want to eat. I have noticed in a few places where they really trample a lot in, it seems to really explode. The new grass will come through the trampled grass, most of the time, in my experience. I have seen a few times where it didn't come back very well. I also have a lot of dung beetles. I have never seen this many. I have seen over 20 of them on one cow pie! Big ones, small ones, tiny ones, all kinds. Most of the time I will see at least one or two on any somewhat fresh cow pie. The cooler temps earlier this week seemed to slow them down. 

Last year I went slow and made the cows eat everything and only trample a little bit. The problem I ran into was that in several paddocks the grass layed over before I got to it. Once I got to those areas, after the grass was layed over, the cows didn't eat it very well. I also had some annual ryegrass that got tall, laid over and then went brown because it got hot. Nothing grew through it the rest of the summer. I think it was just too thick. So, this year I am giving them a little more area and trying to move faster through what I have. Right now, they are probably eating 60%, trampling 20% and leaving 20% standing - I am leaving 4" or more standing and they are leaving 20% of the tops. Last year they were probably eating 80%, trampling 15% and leaving 5% standing - I only left about 2" standing and they grazed all the tops. I am still 2 weeks from finishing my first rotation on all the paddocks. Once I get the first rotation done and the spring flush "mowed off" I will see how it recovers. So far, the first rotation of the spring is a little short of where it was 20 days ago. I see some native warm season grasses coming through, so I hope they can get going in the next two weeks before I get back to where I started. It is only a 45 day rotation on the first round. I will stretch it to 60 (I hope) the next round.


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## gwithrow

agman: I always leave the charger on its post, which is very secure when the charger is off and not in use...we check it periodically, I wipe off the solar unit just to keep the dust down....this is year three for it...and like i said the needle registers in the green, just not a lot of zap on the wire...I mean to go down and disconnect and see what the fence tester shows right at the charger, and I will do that in them morning...


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## randyandmegs

What are you using on the stick weed? I too noticed a test area that I did last year by hand appears to be gone this year using 2-4-d. I now have a problem across the road in what used to be our hay field that I now use for managed rotational grazing with the stick weed (yellow crown beard) and for the first time I can remember we have multi flora rose everywhere. The extension agent suggested using Crossbow.

Agmantoo what practices did you use if any to get you pastures as nice as they are? I considered getting a large breed goat to go in the pasture because it has a really hot 4 strand perimeter but they won't eat the stick weed and I will be moving the cows soon across the road I wouldn't trust to hold a goat, just trying to think of a way not to use herbicides all over the pasture.


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## gwithrow

we used Crossbow last year and I think we are still on that for this year...the big difference is that we are ahead of the curve, by spraying now following the cows, we can see exactly where it is, even the small ones....and we will try to not let any of it flower and go to seed this year... it is a daunting task, but I think we will get ahead of it...we still have a big hill to work on that has multiple problems....we will be cutting then spraying the cut on the sweet gum shoots and the locust that have vicious looking thorns....to say nothing of the roses...the cut and spray has worked very well...on the very woody things...it is time consuming and tedious but worth it...then in August if I have to I will bush hog out any stands of blackberry or roses that have died....

crossbow does not seem to hurt the grasses....and since we walk and spot spray, we can avoid most of the clovers and 'good' weeds....

I remind myself daily that it is an ongoing process, but this year I am looking to the cows for suggestions as to what to get rid of and how they manage their paddocks...that yellow crownbeard just snuck up on us out here...and it quickly gets of out hand...so we will beat it back...we will see how the next rotation goes...


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## ycanchu2

bigbluegrass said:


> I have excess grass as well right now. The orchard grass is 2' to 3' tall (over the top of the step in posts) at the seedhead. The actual forage is 18" to 24" tall. It is very thick. The clover isn't as thick as last year, but still makes up at least 40% of the forage.
> 
> I have a hard time mowing most of my land, because it is a steep hillside. So I normally only mow the hill tops. The hill sides I let the cows trample what they don't want to eat. I have noticed in a few places where they really trample a lot in, it seems to really explode. The new grass will come through the trampled grass, most of the time, in my experience. I have seen a few times where it didn't come back very well. I also have a lot of dung beetles. I have never seen this many. I have seen over 20 of them on one cow pie! Big ones, small ones, tiny ones, all kinds. Most of the time I will see at least one or two on any somewhat fresh cow pie. The cooler temps earlier this week seemed to slow them down.
> 
> *Last year I went slow and made the cows eat everything and only trample a little bit. The problem I ran into was that in several paddocks the grass layed over before I got to it. Once I got to those areas, after the grass was layed over, the cows didn't eat it very well. I also had some annual ryegrass that got tall, laid over and then went brown because it got hot. Nothing grew through it the rest of the summer. I think it was just too thick.* So, this year I am giving them a little more area and trying to move faster through what I have. Right now, they are probably eating 60%, trampling 20% and leaving 20% standing - I am leaving 4" or more standing and they are leaving 20% of the tops. Last year they were probably eating 80%, trampling 15% and leaving 5% standing - I only left about 2" standing and they grazed all the tops. I am still 2 weeks from finishing my first rotation on all the paddocks. Once I get the first rotation done and the spring flush "mowed off" I will see how it recovers. So far, the first rotation of the spring is a little short of where it was 20 days ago. I see some native warm season grasses coming through, so I hope they can get going in the next two weeks before I get back to where I started. It is only a 45 day rotation on the first round. I will stretch it to 60 (I hope) the next round.


 Did the spots that laid over grow any in the fall and what do those spots look like now?


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## bigbluegrass

The places that the predominately annual ryegrass laid over in were brown all summer and around September started to green up. They stayed green all winter, but did not grow much. I did graze it hard in September (down to 2" or below) and overseeded orchardgrass, timothy, fescue mix into it in September. It grew fairly well this spring and the first rotation it was 12" and fairly thick. This spring they are still a fairly high percentage annual ryegrass. I don't think most of my overseeded grass has been able to compete with the annual ryegrass. I did see a few young seedlings, but I was not able to identify the grass. I am hoping that by grazing it earlier I can give those new seedlings a better chance. Maybe there are still a few down there that can get past the ryegrass. One stand appears to be pure annual ryegrass - which is fine in the spring but really poor forage in the summer when it is brown. The soil does not look imporoved for having all that organic matter laid over onto it last spring. It actually looks worse, I think because it laid essentially bare all summer and got too hot. I have stopped planting annual ryegrass. I was overseeding it into bare spots, but it seems to take over - at least here it does. I was planting it fairly heavy - probably 10# per acre or more (just on small areas). It has filled in the gaps - but now I don't know how to get rid of it.:hair

The places that were growing perennial grasses that laid over (a mix of orchard grass, fescue, timithy, clovers, alfalfa and various other plants) grew back within roughly 45 to 60 days. The regrowth was a little slower than those areas that the grass did not lay over and it seems the regrowth is/was a bit more sparse. However, the soil does look improved under the new forage. I do think you can trample too much grass into the ground. I am trying to avoid trampling too large a percentage. However, I also think it can be beneficial to trample some. I will have a better feel for it next year, as I trampled several large areas this spring that were perennial grasses.

I am still learning for sure. Learning can be difficult since each year is a little different and it is hard to determine what exactly makes certain areas really grow and others not grow. This website really helps, since I can compare what other people do and see and hopefully try to figure out what I can do better. This time of year it sure seems like I need more cows. But I am pretty sure in a few months, I will be matched about right or maybe even have too many cows. Mowing is not really an option for me, since most of my property is hillside that would be very dangerous to mow.


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## ycanchu2

bigbluegrass said:


> The places that the predominately annual ryegrass laid over in were brown all summer and around September started to green up. They stayed green all winter, but did not grow much. I did graze it hard in September (down to 2" or below) and overseeded orchardgrass, timothy, fescue mix into it in September. It grew fairly well this spring and the first rotation it was 12" and fairly thick. This spring they are still a fairly high percentage annual ryegrass. I don't think most of my overseeded grass has been able to compete with the annual ryegrass. I did see a few young seedlings, but I was not able to identify the grass. I am hoping that by grazing it earlier I can give those new seedlings a better chance. Maybe there are still a few down there that can get past the ryegrass. One stand appears to be pure annual ryegrass - which is fine in the spring but really poor forage in the summer when it is brown. The soil does not look imporoved for having all that organic matter laid over onto it last spring. It actually looks worse, I think because it laid essentially bare all summer and got too hot. I have stopped planting annual ryegrass. I was overseeding it into bare spots, but it seems to take over - at least here it does. I was planting it fairly heavy - probably 10# per acre or more (just on small areas). It has filled in the gaps - but now I don't know how to get rid of it.:hair
> 
> The places that were growing perennial grasses that laid over (a mix of orchard grass, fescue, timithy, clovers, alfalfa and various other plants) grew back within roughly 45 to 60 days. The regrowth was a little slower than those areas that the grass did not lay over and it seems the regrowth is/was a bit more sparse. However, the soil does look improved under the new forage. I do think you can trample too much grass into the ground. I am trying to avoid trampling too large a percentage. However, I also think it can be beneficial to trample some. I will have a better feel for it next year, as I trampled several large areas this spring that were perennial grasses.
> 
> I am still learning for sure. Learning can be difficult since each year is a little different and it is hard to determine what exactly makes certain areas really grow and others not grow. This website really helps, since I can compare what other people do and see and hopefully try to figure out what I can do better. This time of year it sure seems like I need more cows. But I am pretty sure in a few months, I will be matched about right or maybe even have too many cows. Mowing is not really an option for me, since most of my property is hillside that would be very dangerous to mow.


 Did you fertilize the ryegrass, not being critical, if you fertilize, but I'm sure you know its like throwing gas on a fire when it comes to ryegrass. I've not fertilized in years and I don't have a problem with the ryegrass taking over, actually have trouble with it competing with the perennials unless I disk up the ground some.


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## bigbluegrass

ycanchu2 said:


> Did you fertilize the ryegrass.


Nope, never used any nitrogen fertilizer on it (not even chicken litter)! Just cow manure as the cows spread it and the dung beetles mix it.

Before I bought this farm it was a horse farm. The guy ran 80 horses on it and there is about 12 acres of cleared pasture and 40 acres of woods. It was pretty worn out and there were a lot of bare spots. Everyplace it is a high percentage of ryegrass was either completely bare when I bought the place or pretty bare (50% open ground). I did seed perennial grasses the first spring, but not much came up. Ryegrass was seeded in the fall of 2009 after a drought to get something/anything green for the cows to eat. It worked, that spring I had ryegrass and it was a welcome sight. But that summer, when it all went brown in June, I realized how much ryegrass I had and that it doesn't produce anything over the summer. It has reseeded itself every year since.


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## Awnry Abe

I need to talk about clipping (again). I've scoured the thread for all clipping discussions, and I don't think I am getting a comfort feel for my situation.

We went from no grass, to lush grass, ridiculously fast. The cows aren't keeping up and seed heads are formed. Talk about feast or famine. 

I am not concerned with wasting time and fuel as much as I am about hurting pasture performance. I have 2 issues common in most of my paddocks. 

1) I have clumping of mature grass that appears to be less palatable due what I know understand was from not dragging last year. 

2) even in the fairly even, non-clumpy pastures, the fescue seems to have bolted a bit fast and isn't very vegetative.

As to the maturity of the seed bearing stalk, i would say that it is still a good couple of weeks away from pollen. It is just beyond the boot stage. I am struggling to get my mower any higher than about 8 inches, so I am taking out a bit more of the leaf than I would prefer.

Should I begin to mow ahead of the herd, or let them graze it at this point and clean up after? I did a test patch of variety this evening and took a look at the remains. I thought it looked pretty stemmy and short, with variable amounts of good vegetative material.


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## ycanchu2

Awnry Abe said:


> I need to talk about clipping (again). I've scoured the thread for all clipping discussions, and I don't think I am getting a comfort feel for my situation.
> 
> We went from no grass, to lush grass, ridiculously fast. The cows aren't keeping up and seed heads are formed. Talk about feast or famine.
> 
> I am not concerned with wasting time and fuel as much as I am about hurting pasture performance. I have 2 issues common in most of my paddocks.
> 
> *1) I have clumping of mature grass that appears to be less palatable due what I know understand was from not dragging last year. *
> *You will still have some clumpy areas even if you drag or at least I did....you can't drag out a urine patch. I'm hoping that won't be a problem in time as the pastures improve.*
> 2) even in the fairly even, non-clumpy pastures, the fescue seems to have bolted a bit fast and isn't very vegetative.
> 
> As to the maturity of the seed bearing stalk, i would say that it is still a good couple of weeks away from pollen. It is just beyond the boot stage. I am struggling to get my mower any higher than about 8 inches, so I am taking out a bit more of the leaf than I would prefer.
> 
> *Should I begin to mow ahead of the herd, or let them graze it at this point and clean up after? I did a test patch of variety this evening and took a look at the remains. I thought it looked pretty stemmy and short, with variable amounts of good vegetative material.*


*Last year I mowed ahead of the herd and then behind them, this year I'm not mowing ahead but I am doing some clipping behind the cattle. I've got some clover on one place and some Korean lespedeza on another growing good underneath so the cattle seem to be happy going thru the tall stuff. I feel like there is some food value in the seedheads though they don't eat them all they do eat some, a mixture of fescue and orchardgrass, and rye grass and a little timothy.*
*That is my thoughts I would like to hear what others think.*


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## agmantoo

I am mowing ahead and behind the cattle. Where I am mowing behind the herd appears to be the best regrowth with the most forage. The herd did fair OK following a dry(severe drought here) 2012 and grazing marginal forage over Winter. Compensatory gain has replaced the lost weight and the herd is either is BCS of 5 or better or approaching that score. I had planned to erect a storage building for hay that I expected to purchase and store but that got waysided due to a fire at a family enterprise. This Spring is not unusual to other Spring seasons in that I have too much forage now but expect to have too little later. These rolling hills here do not readily adapt to irrigation and it seems to be either a feast or famine situation every 3rd year or so. I seem to be at a loss as to how to balance the feed supply and the need for feed. I know that folks that are just starting a rotational grazing operation are harder pressed than me to reach an equilibrium and I wish I had the answer but I don't. Time has taught me that one extreme follows another and the decent rains over the last while will IMO be followed by a dry Summer. The best adivce I can offer is to conserve as much of the abundant forage that exists now for later!


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> I am mowing ahead and behind the cattle. Where I am mowing behind the herd appears to be the best regrowth with the most forage. The herd did fair OK following a dry(severe drought here) 2012 and grazing marginal forage over Winter. Compensatory gain has replaced the lost weight and the herd is either is BCS of 5 or better or approaching that score. I had planned to erect a storage building for hay that I expected to purchase and store but that got waysided due to a fire at a family enterprise. This Spring is not unusual to other Spring seasons in that I have too much forage now but expect to have too little later. These rolling hills here do not readily adapt to irrigation and it seems to be either a feast or famine situation every 3rd year or so. I seem to be at a loss as to how to balance the feed supply and the need for feed. I know that folks that are just starting a rotational grazing operation are harder pressed than me to reach an equilibrium and I wish I had the answer but I don't. Time has taught me that one extreme follows another and the decent rains over the last while will IMO be followed by a dry Summer. The best adivce I can offer is to conserve as much of the abundant forage that exists now for later!


 We didn't have the drought here that you did. Here we have had so much moisture that once grass started growing it seems to have exploded, but its been cool so we seem to be about a month behind what we were last year. The grass doesn't have a whole lot of blades to it, just stems wanting to headout and when you cut it it just wants to headout again, it may do that until it gets warmer weather.
I remember when I was a kid, the hay fields were at least 3 or 4 ft tall and the blades were so thick you couldn't hardly walk thru it. I remember when I was a teenager just a few years later a neighbor was talking about how the hay fields were mostly stems, there was very few blades and they were short. I notice now when I pass by a hayfield on the road, even where its been fertilized, it is mostly stems and not a lot of blades.....I think from years of chemical fertilizers...burning out the humus combined with overgrazing. JMHO


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## Awnry Abe

Thanks. I'll take the advice and stand down with the mowing if i cant get it above the leaves. I am a bit nervous about mowing after watching everything go down last year. I cut hay this time last year and the pasture still looked fresh cut in December. The one thing I have going for me this year is more acreage per head, so I have more breathing room for mistakes this year. Also, I am trying to learn how to get top performance, so I'd rather have a steer or heifer this year do poorly vs. screwing up my pastures for years to come at the expense of future harvests.


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## ycanchu2

Awnry Abe said:


> Thanks. I'll take the advice and stand down with the mowing if i cant get it above the leaves. I am a bit nervous about mowing after watching everything go down last year. I cut hay this time last year and the pasture still looked fresh cut in December. The one thing I have going for me this year is more acreage per head, so I have more breathing room for mistakes this year. Also, I am trying to learn how to get top performance, so I'd rather have a steer or heifer this year do poorly vs. screwing up my pastures for years to come at the expense of future harvests.


 I'll give some more rambling thoughts. You will just about need a batwing or pull-type bush hog to get very high unless you want to carry a 3 point hitch high off the ground and that can be hard on the hydraulics of a tractor. Plus you run the risk of having heavy concentrations of cut grass that will shade out the grasses and clovers etc. underneath, especially if you have headed out grass that is waist high and higher. As it is now, at least you are still getting sunlight down into the undergrowth and it will probably keep growing for a while. Not to mention that the ground is going to be very well shaded, which makes an ideal environment for soil life. a living mulch in other words. I have some grass exactly the same way....some of it will be 30 to 60 days from now till I get to it and I'm sure it will have turned brown by then, but the undergrowth should still be green probably from the warm season grasses growing up thru it. When it turns brown even more sunlight should be getting down in it. It would probably be best to let that fall to a different area each year.


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## gwithrow

does anyone know of a way to modify a bush hog in order to be able to mow about 24 inches off the ground?..I know I could just keep the bush hog up high on the lift arms, but that seems like it would be hard on the hydraulic system...I just want to take the tops off the tall grasses...


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> does anyone know of a way to modify a bush hog in order to be able to mow about 24 inches off the ground?..I know I could just keep the bush hog up high on the lift arms, but that seems like it would be hard on the hydraulic system...I just want to take the tops off the tall grasses...


 I guess you could modify the spindle that the tire/back wheel spins around on or ideally get another one and make it about 2 ft. long. It would take alittle doin but it could be done.


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## baseball

What time of the day does everyone move their cattle?

I have read that the best time is in the afternoon or evening.

Also, what pumps are people using for pumping water out of their ponds?


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## agmantoo

*What time of the day does everyone move their cattle?*

In the Winter between 10 am and noon. In Summer, after 4PM unless a thunder storm is threatening.


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## ycanchu2

baseball said:


> What time of the day does everyone move their cattle?
> 
> I have read that the best time is in the afternoon or evening.
> 
> Also, what pumps are people using for pumping water out of their ponds?


All of the experts that I have read and those on here too like Agmantoo....say in the afternoon. I have a refractometer and the reading is always higher in the afternoon than in the morning especially if its sunny. So that little trick alone, moving in the afternoon or late in the afternoon probably ups the food value a lot.....for free. Another reason for afternoon or late afternoon shifts is that it will make the cattle tend to stay in the paddock all night, if you are looking for more manuring and urinating. 
Having said all that, it sure is hard not to go out the first thing in the morning and make your moves and be done for the day. As the weather gets hotter...later in the afternoon will be best. You don't want to move them right in the heat of the day.


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## Awnry Abe

gwithrow said:


> does anyone know of a way to modify a bush hog in order to be able to mow about 24 inches off the ground?..I know I could just keep the bush hog up high on the lift arms, but that seems like it would be hard on the hydraulic system...I just want to take the tops off the tall grasses...


That is the same situation I am in. I have a 15' batwing that is elevation challenged. I can raise the rump end of it up using a large turnbuckle, but it's front height is still determined by my drawbar. My neighbor has an identical ford 7710, and his drawbar is a whole inch higher than mine. Tire inflation, I presume. Plus the hitch sags another inch or two off the drawbar. I would like that offset back....


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## ycanchu2

Awnry Abe said:


> That is the same situation I am in. I have a 15' batwing that is elevation challenged. I can raise the rump end of it up using a large turnbuckle, but it's front height is still determined by my drawbar. My neighbor has an identical ford 7710, and his drawbar is a whole inch higher than mine. Tire inflation, I presume. Plus the hitch sags another inch or two off the drawbar. I would like that offset back....


 What about one of those bars with the holes all the way across it......it hooks into the lift arms? I have one but don't know what they are called.


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## Awnry Abe

ycanchu2 said:


> What about one of those bars with the holes all the way across it......it hooks into the lift arms? I have one but don't know what they are called.


My concern with a 3pt drawbar is that I could raise it above the pto. My 3pt control is a bit sticky. Additionally, I wouldn't want to create a pull-over situation by pulling higher than my tractor's center of gravity. But it definitely could work, otherwise.


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## SCRancher

When to move the cattle.

Spring and Fall I try to move them in the afternoon usually around noon - 2. My reason for doing so - well I walk my property and usually by noon the dew is gone and I don't get my boots and pants wet.
In the winter this also usually means that if hose to the mobile water cart froze it will have thawed out.
In the deep summer I may wait till after 5,6, or later because the cows sometimes are not cooperative when it's 100 degrees out so I wait till later when it's starting to cool off.


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## baseball

Thanks for the info everyone.

Anybody have trouble with the cows when their moving time isn't consistent? 

From my reading you need to keep it consistent so that the cows have a schedule.

Also. Nobody using a pump for pond water?


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## agmantoo

*Anybody have trouble with the cows when their moving time isn't consistent? *

My cattle will get impatient if I am too late. The cattle do seem to have any internal clock and they do anticipate my arrival. Normally they will be standing near the next paddock that they anticipate they will be given access. If for some reason I am extremely late they may challenge the polywire electric charge and cross over.


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## ycanchu2

baseball said:


> Thanks for the info everyone.
> 
> Anybody have trouble with the cows when their moving time isn't consistent?
> 
> From my reading you need to keep it consistent so that the cows have a schedule.
> 
> Also. *Nobody using a pump for pond water*?


No, I don't, sorry...I used to have a pump with a Briggs and Stratton engine on it when I used to grow tobacco. We would use it to pump out of a pond sometimes. don't remember where I got it, but I would think they are pretty common.


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## thestartupman

I keep my times pretty random, and it seems to help with the cattle staying patient. I move them between 1 pm, and 7 pm.


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## randyandmegs

gwithrow said:


> does anyone know of a way to modify a bush hog in order to be able to mow about 24 inches off the ground?..I know I could just keep the bush hog up high on the lift arms, but that seems like it would be hard on the hydraulic system...I just want to take the tops off the tall grasses...


I have the same issue as well. What do you guys think about using a sickle mower for this. 

Gwithrow, there was a farm auction really close to you a few weeks ago and I had my parents bid on a 7' sickle mower but didn't win it. It sold for 325, maybe I should have bid a little higher.


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## agmantoo

*I have the same issue as well. What do you guys think about using a sickle mower for this.*

I have a 9 ft sickle mower and trying to mow fescue/orchard grass with the mower off the ground doesn't work worth a hoot. The bar wants to flop excessively. I find that I can clip weeds from under the fence with it but it is slow. I am now trying a different attempt to get rid of the stems and hopefully the seed heads now. In a sample plot I have run a large cultipacker over some tall fescue. I will try to post results in a few days. I thought that I had a mower conditioner bought, one with the offset tongue, but the seller changed his mind. Has anyone tried one to the mower/conditions for the clipping?


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## ATPFARM

agmantoo said:


> *I have the same issue as well. What do you guys think about using a sickle mower for this.*
> 
> I have a 9 ft sickle mower and trying to mow fescue/orchard grass with the mower off the ground doesn't work worth a hoot. The bar wants to flop excessively. I find that I can clip weeds from under the fence with it but it is slow. I am now trying a different attempt to get rid of the stems and hopefully the seed heads now. In a sample plot I have run a large cultipacker over some tall fescue. I will try to post results in a few days. I thought that I had a mower conditioner bought, one with the offset tongue, but the seller changed his mind. Has anyone tried one to the mower/conditions for the clipping?



What about welding a bar to the far end of the cycle bar with a ground wheel attached and let it float with wheel to ground contact...?

Using the cultipacker to bend/break the fescue shafts...good idea...


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> *I have the same issue as well. What do you guys think about using a sickle mower for this.*
> 
> I have a 9 ft sickle mower and trying to mow fescue/orchard grass with the mower off the ground doesn't work worth a hoot. The bar wants to flop excessively. I find that I can clip weeds from under the fence with it but it is slow. I am now trying a different attempt to get rid of the stems and hopefully the seed heads now. In a sample plot I have run a large cultipacker over some tall fescue. I will try to post results in a few days. I thought that I had a mower conditioner bought, one with the offset tongue, but the seller changed his mind. Has anyone tried one to the mower/conditions for the clipping?


 I haven't but if it has hydraulic cylinders you could put cylinder stops on it and set it as high as it will go and let pressure off the hydraulic system.
Something like a stalk shredder would be ideal if you had a good one. They shred everything into tiny pieces....better for decomposition. I tried using a grass harrow to knock the grass down.....it lays it flat but it stands back up in a few days. a cultipacker might work if it crimped the stem......would just have to try it and see.


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## ramiller5675

agmantoo said:


> I thought that I had a mower conditioner bought, one with the offset tongue, but the seller changed his mind. Has anyone tried one to the mower/conditions for the clipping?


I've got a little 8' haybine (sickle bar cutting with a roller conditioner) that I've used to cut hay and you can clip grass with the haybine up in the transport position. I've never done a large area, and I'm not sure if it would eventually damage the haybine.

I've also got a disc mower that I cut hay with, and I'd hate to run it very long with it raised up off the ground. It runs so fast it sounds like a jet engine when it's running and there is a reason they typically have skirts on them. With it raised up and running without the skirts dragging the ground, I'd be afraid of it picking something up and hurling it out fast enough to kill or break something. 

I've always thought that if you wanted to clip grass high off the ground ideally you'd need something like a self-propelled swather so you could raise the header up off the ground and cut at whatever height you wanted.


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## ycanchu2

ramiller5675 said:


> I've got a little 8' haybine (sickle bar cutting with a roller conditioner) that I've used to cut hay and you can clip grass with the haybine up in the transport position. I've never done a large area, and I'm not sure if it would eventually damage the haybine.
> 
> I've also got a disc mower that I cut hay with, and I'd hate to run it very long with it raised up off the ground. It runs so fast it sounds like a jet engine when it's running and there is a reason they typically have skirts on them. With it raised up and running without the skirts dragging the ground, I'd be afraid of it picking something up and hurling it out fast enough to kill or break something.
> 
> *I've always thought that if you wanted to clip grass high off the ground ideally you'd need something like a self-propelled swather so you could raise the header up off the ground and cut at whatever height you wanted.*



Something like that that you could put a straw chopper on like a combine has. Then again maybe there wouldn't be enough straw to matter. One thing I'm sure everyone experiences is that what the tractor tires run over will just stand back up seed heads and all.


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## Ironbutt

Walking the pasture yesterday ,I noticed I have dung beetles. Do I still need to drag the pasture? Or wait and let them work? I never noticed them before, until seeing someone post about them on here... Great thread...


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## Awnry Abe

My grazing system, which was designed by the NRCS, has been functioning very well since I purchased it in 2010. I have not grown into it, though. The previous owner was working in excess of 100 cow/calf pairs in his peak. I only have 20. 

I intend on taking advantage of my small herd size by cutting down the 10-15 acre paddock sizes using poly-wire, step in posts, and 100 gallon stock tanks. As I have been contemplating this move, I have slowly began to appreciate how well the NRCS did in placing water, fence and gates. Plasson QC taps are located in a number of very convenient spots.

My question involves shade. My very next paddock in the rotation, if I were to keep it whole, only has shade in a stand of hedge at the very center of the paddock. If I elect to carve this paddock up, should I incorporate that stand of shade is some manner in each sub-paddock? I can make nice, tidy sub-paddocks if I don't worry about shade. Giving them shade will require a bit of creative thinking.


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## mulemom

Don't know if this idea will help anyone-we still can only mow about 14" but 8" was all we could do before. On our old bushhog we moved the pins for the three-point down to just above the deck. The pump on our old Massey Ferg would knock like crazy if we tried to mow with the lift all the way up-moving the pins lets us put it midrange and it seems happier.


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## ycanchu2

Awnry Abe said:


> My grazing system, which was designed by the NRCS, has been functioning very well since I purchased it in 2010. I have not grown into it, though. The previous owner was working in excess of 100 cow/calf pairs in his peak. I only have 20.
> 
> I intend on taking advantage of my small herd size by cutting down the 10-15 acre paddock sizes using poly-wire, step in posts, and 100 gallon stock tanks. As I have been contemplating this move, I have slowly began to appreciate how well the NRCS did in placing water, fence and gates. Plasson QC taps are located in a number of very convenient spots.
> 
> My question involves shade. My very next paddock in the rotation, if I were to keep it whole, only has shade in a stand of hedge at the very center of the paddock. If I elect to carve this paddock up, should I incorporate that stand of shade is some manner in each sub-paddock? I can make nice, tidy sub-paddocks if I don't worry about shade. Giving them shade will require a bit of creative thinking.


 IMO shade is essential....I like the idea of permanent lanes to shade and water.


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## ycanchu2

mulemom said:


> Don't know if this idea will help anyone-we still can only mow about 14" but 8" was all we could do before. On our old bushhog we moved the pins for the three-point down to just above the deck. The pump on our old Massey Ferg would knock like crazy if we tried to mow with the lift all the way up-moving the pins lets us put it midrange and it seems happier.


 Great idea.


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## Gabriel

Ironbutt said:


> Walking the pasture yesterday ,I noticed I have dung beetles. Do I still need to drag the pasture? Or wait and let them work? I never noticed them before, until seeing someone post about them on here... Great thread...


If you drag it makes it harder for the beetles to do their work. However, if you're on a small (relative, I know) place then the cattle will never get so far ahead of their own manure that they truly leave the fly larvae behind. So, as always, the answer is "it depends". Got a fly load? Drag 3-4 days behind the cattle. That _should_ give the beetles time to do their thing and move on, while still reducing flies. I'm not dragging this year at all, but am not too happy with the fly load so far. 75 acres, 1/3 acre moves twice a day, the patties are never too far away... guess I need to get my egg mobile into service.


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## ramiller5675

If you drag it makes it almost impossible for the beetles to do their work. Some of the dung beetles lay their eggs in the manure, some lay eggs in the ground under the manure, etc. None of the dung beetles are adapted to laying eggs in or under manure and then having the manure spread out all over the pasture by someone dragging a harrow over the pasture.

When you drag the pasture you disrupt the entire world of the dung beetle and it's hard for new ones to hatch out.

Dragging a pasture all the time doesn't seem very low input or holistic to me.


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## ycanchu2

ramiller5675 said:


> If you drag it makes it almost impossible for the beetles to do their work. Some of the dung beetles lay their eggs in the manure, some lay eggs in the ground under the manure, etc. None of the dung beetles are adapted to laying eggs in or under manure and then having the manure spread out all over the pasture by someone dragging a harrow over the pasture.
> 
> When you drag the pasture you disrupt the entire world of the dung beetle and it's hard for new ones to hatch out.
> 
> Dragging a pasture all the time doesn't seem very low input or holistic to me.


 Most of us do more work than we need to or have to including me, but I'm working on that. If your rotations are long enough they shouldn't have the smell they do initially to a cow. Also, dragging this time of year just causes them to dry out and soil life needs moisture. I've heard that left intact they are like miniature compost piles.


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## agmantoo

Just a few comments regarding several recent posts. I realize that my cattle to land ratio probably exceeds what most folks are doing and I am aware that what works for me may not adapt readily to many of those that are doing rotational grazing.

I do drag grazed paddocks after a 3 to 5 days period following grazing. I do this for several reasons. Since I apply no commercial fertilizer and depend mainly on the cattle manure I want the manure to be evenly distributed. Cattle will not eat the recovering grass that is growing from a manure pat. When I return the herd to the paddock I want the entire paddock forage to be consumable. I also feel that since the dung beetles that are present on my farm are tunnelers that they have had an opportunity to work the fresh manure and that all is well with the beetles. The spread manure will dry out rapidly following the distribution of the manure and IMO this effort may help in fly control. Do realize this work is done within days following the grazing so there is not much ground cover remaining when ~126,000 lbs of cattle were fed for 24 hours on ~36,000 square feet of paddock. I also clip seed heads because my major grass is fescue. This effort is done to reduce the endophyte that is stored in the seedhead. I have tried numerous other grasses but none have held up and produced the volume of forage over such long periods of time as the fescue here in zone 7. Here is a couple photos taken today of a paddock that was grazed roughly 2+ months ago and then dragged with a harrow and the tops clipped a few weeks ago. You can see how uniform the color of the forage is and that some of the fescue that had not headed back then did go to seed. My herd is accustomed to eating fescue and the small amount of seed head remaining should not be an issue. I know that I am getting a good return on the investment of fuel and time for these small tasks. The profit margin from this small cattle operation supports my position.


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## am1too

agmantoo said:


> Just a few comments regarding several recent posts. I realize that my cattle to land ratio probably exceeds what most folks are doing and I am aware that what works for me may not adapt readily to many of those that are doing rotational grazing.
> 
> I do drag grazed paddocks after a 3 to 5 days period following grazing. I do this for several reasons. Since I apply no commercial fertilizer and depend mainly on the cattle manure I want the manure to be evenly distributed. Cattle will not eat the recovering grass that is growing from a manure pat. When I return the herd to the paddock I want the entire paddock forage to be consumable. I also feel that since the dung beetles that are present on my farm are tunnelers that they have had an opportunity to work the fresh manure and that all is well with the beetles. The spread manure will dry out rapidly following the distribution of the manure and IMO this effort may help in fly control. Do realize this work is done within days following the grazing so there is not much ground cover remaining when ~126,000 lbs of cattle were fed for 24 hours on ~36,000 square feet of paddock. I also clip seed heads because my major grass is fescue. This effort is done to reduce the endophyte that is stored in the seedhead. I have tried numerous other grasses but none have held up and produced the volume of forage over such long periods of time as the fescue here in zone 7. Here is a couple photos taken today of a paddock that was grazed roughly 2+ months ago and then dragged with a harrow and the tops clipped a few weeks ago. You can see how uniform the color of the forage is and that some of the fescue that had not headed back then did go to seed. My herd is accustomed to eating fescue and the small amount of seed head remaining should not be an issue. I know that I am getting a good return on the investment of fuel and time for these small tasks. The profit margin from this small cattle operation supports my position.


What are you clipping your pasture with?


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## ycanchu2

Agmantoo,
One can't argue with success. You certainly have my highest respect. I guess I'm not sure what plays the biggest role in productivity....the manure, or the high stocking density that you have, or the ongoing growing up of the grass and then defoliation. I know all three play a very positive role plus time. As each year passes the pasture should get better and better.
I have combined two herds this year about six weeks ago from two farms that are parallel to each other. After moving the one herd over to the other farm the remaining farm has just been growing without cattle on it yet so far. I noticed today that my lanes are growing quite well too, as a matter of fact, they are growing as good or better than the paddocks. I've just been letting the cows pick in the lanes at will all last year and this year up until I moved them. All I can figure is that my lanes have been getting an incredible amount of stocking density with the traffic of the cows even though they are basically getting overgrazed. Not sure what to make of it, except that the stock density must be very important to the over all production.


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## agmantoo

am1too

I am clipping with a Bushhog brand rotary cutter. I can get a higher clip using a semi mount type when the fescue is nearly seeded to the point of maturity. I also have a drawbar type and it works OK when I come in after the cattle have grazed the fescue and left trampled stems and uneaten manured grass. Sometimes I am now pulling the drag behind the mower to accomplish both task in a single pass. The tractor is using roughly 2 gallons of fuel per acre when pulling both implements. On my flatter land I can cover ~3 acres per hour. Each day that I can graze a paddock offsets the cost of 3+ large round bales of hay. I will let you do the math. For me, the effort is justifiable plus I enjoy running the machinery.


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## FarmerDavid

I have just started reading this thread im going to read it from the top. I dont think that im ready to start rotational grazing but it seems like a great thread. Agmantoo i do have a question, other then being red how does this cow compare to your ideal for rotational grazing? She's three years old and just had her second calf three weeks ago. She's 48 inches tall at her hips.


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## agmantoo

FarmerDavid

From my viewing of the pic the 3 year old cow would be great for rotational grazing. Nice straight back, good hips, right frame and small udder. She should be cheap to keep and produce a very marketable calve off grass alone.

If you start rotational grazing now you should have an advantage by the time Fall arrives and you should be able to go into Winter with enough experience to reduce your hay use by 25 % IMO. Good luck and thanks for sharing the pic of the cow.


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## FarmerDavid

At this time I don't think I have the water access to go to a system like yours. I had intentions of putting in some frost free waterers but don't have the funds to at this time. I'm running 20 females on 20 acres. I did decide the 20 acres into 4 five acre paddocks. One of those only has water only in the spring. The paddocks are to big but helping. 

That cow is what I immediately thought of with one of your descriptions and your pictures. She is probably the best example of my cow as compared to what you look for but is representative of half the cows. The other half are bigger. I just wanted to post the pic to make sure I was on the same page as far as her type.


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## FarmerDavid

Also as i previously stated I've just recently started to read this thread and an only on page 8. Ill read a page or two a day as I have time so this my have been previously addressed, have you done any ultrasound on your cattle?


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## agmantoo

I have not had any ultra sound work done. I have thought about possibly doing it myself but I do not know very much about the equipment nor the cost. My daily activities seem to occupy more time than I have. As a one man show I often let things go that should get my attention.


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## am1too

agmantoo said:


> am1too
> 
> I am clipping with a Bushhog brand rotary cutter. I can get a higher clip using a semi mount type when the fescue is nearly seeded to the point of maturity. I also have a drawbar type and it works OK when I come in after the cattle have grazed the fescue and left trampled stems and uneaten manured grass. Sometimes I am now pulling the drag behind the mower to accomplish both task in a single pass. The tractor is using roughly 2 gallons of fuel per acre when pulling both implements. On my flatter land I can cover ~3 acres per hour. Each day that I can graze a paddock offsets the cost of 3+ large round bales of hay. I will let you do the math. For me, the effort is justifiable plus I enjoy running the machinery.


Thanks so much. I am just trying to get an idea how to work my grass the best way possible. I am still trying to just get grass. I am doing better with all this rain. Oh what a relief it is. The fire hydrants quit asking dogs for water.

Right now it is to wet to do much more than walk on it.


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## Awnry Abe

FarmerDavid, I've seen some very inexpensive, creative, temporary waters. I just put an affordable Jobe float in an old plastic 100 gallon tank that is serviced with a long garden hose. It isn't fancy, won't work in the winter, but I don't care. I have cows on a new smaller paddock that didn't exist until 2 days ago.


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## agmantoo

FarmerDavid

Here is a pdf that has some waterers for ideas. It downloads slowly.

http://www.mn.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/ecs/grazing/photos/Watering Systems.pdf

This link will/should open
http://www.giantrubberwatertanks.com/Setting The Tank.htm


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## baseball

agmantoo, 

If you get a chance can you help me with the fence layout on the picture I posted on page 86 of this thread?

Thanks


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## agmantoo

Look this over and see how it may adapt to your farm


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## FarmerDavid

agmantoo said:


> FarmerDavid
> 
> Here is a pdf that has some waterers for ideas. It downloads slowly.
> 
> http://www.mn.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/ecs/grazing/photos/Watering Systems.pdf
> 
> This link will/should open
> http://www.giantrubberwatertanks.com/Setting The Tank.htm


ill have a look at these later. Part of my problem is that farm where my cattle are is 45 acres. 5 acres is the barn, old farm house were hopefully going to be moving to soon, and drive way. It was all in pasture when we bought it but im currently row cropping half, and whats not farmable remains in pasture so its alittle cut up. Its a pain in the butt, but the row crop is more profitable for me currently. I can see the cattle being more profitable once I have a more established herd but not at this time.

We have a first right of refusal on the rest of that section and a half section across the road. It is supposed to sell in approx. 5 years. The balance is mostly row crop ground. 

I hope to put what was origionally in grass back to grass and probably some additional land if we are able to buy the rest. 

Even with just the original part that we own now I can invision how I would use rotational grazing if it was all still in pasture. I hope to set up a rotational setup as is currently configured. I don't think that it will be as managed as yours is but maybe 2 acre paddocks. I need to build another pond and think that its location will cure most of the water issues.

I was out on it on the four wheeler yesterday and the 5 acres that it is currently in is to big. Places are ate into the ground while others aren't touched. Im also hoping to go to a corn-cover crop-corn rotation on the row crop ground and grazing the cover crop in the fall and winter when the weather permits. This would allow me to stock pile some fescue. 

Even if you don't rotational graze this thread seems to be full of excellent pasture management advice. When we took over our farm 18 months ago it was nothing but 6 foot high ragweed and thin fescue stands. Even with last years drought the pastures are much improved simply by becoming friends with my brushhog.


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## SCRancher

I would think building a pond would be more expensive and less flexible then burring water pipe and putting hydrants in. I put in 6k feet of 2 inch PVC pipe and 20 hydrants so I now have 20 spots to hook up for water. I actually have more problems providing shade then I do water.


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## FarmerDavid

Do you catch many fish in that pipe?


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## SCRancher

FarmerDavid - you said build ANOTHER pond - just how many ponds do you need to catch fish? but no I don't catch fish in the pipes - good point.


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## FarmerDavid

One more  running pipe would be Cheeper and add more flexibility I agree. The pond is as much for aesthetic and entertainment value as much as function.


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## Gabriel

My problem with routine mowing and dragging is that it reduces diversity. If the clumps of manure are left, the cows won't eat it on the first pass, but they will after it gets mature. This helps them balance their intake, as fresh growth is often too high in protein and old growth or hay will help them balance it out. Also, when you clip on a regular schedule, only the plant(s) that thrives on that recovery period will do well. As I've lengthened my recovery times many different species are coming in. I now have a lot more Orchard grass than before. 

I am still spot mowing for some invasive stuff like brambles, but my vast ignorance of nature keeps me humble enough to limit my interference. Just the other day I moved the cows and watched a heifer graze up to a young (8" tall) thistle and rather than go around it... she ate it. All of it. Who am I to say what a weed is or isn't?


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## Gabriel

With serendipitous timing, along comes this blog post: http://beefproducer.com/blogs-sake-energy-watch-cattle-graze-seedheads-first-7245


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> My problem with routine mowing and dragging is that it reduces diversity. If the clumps of manure are left, the cows won't eat it on the first pass, but they will after it gets mature. This helps them balance their intake, as fresh growth is often too high in protein and old growth or hay will help them balance it out. Also, when you clip on a regular schedule, only the plant(s) that thrives on that recovery period will do well. As I've lengthened my recovery times many different species are coming in. I now have a lot more Orchard grass than before.
> 
> I am still spot mowing for some invasive stuff like brambles, but my vast ignorance of nature keeps me humble enough to limit my interference. Just the other day I moved the cows and watched a heifer graze up to a young (8" tall) thistle and rather than go around it... she ate it. All of it. Who am I to say what a weed is or isn't?


 The problem I'm seeing so far is that most of my mature grass has very little if any blades even though it is tall a thick in some places. Most of the undergrowth is clover and various tender weeds that the cattle seem to like. But when they eat all that all new growth has to tiller out from the roots because there seems to be no blades.
On one place I clipped the seedheads off about 3 weeks ago and it had regrowed seedheads and all just like I had never clipped it, but it started putting on some blades and it seems to be more palatable to the cattle.
I 've been seeing this phenomenon for many years even fertilized hay fields now seems to be mostly stems. When I was a kid it wasn't that way...we would have hay up to your waist and thick blades almost knee high. I feel like it is from a lack of organic matter and it will take time to get back to that. In the mean time during the rebuilding phase I'm not so sure that clipping is a bad idea. At least before the first rotation.


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## bigbluegrass

I agree with what Gabriel is saying. I am seeing similar things. I don't mow. I can't mow. Most of my farm is hillside that is too steep to mow. I also don't drag for the same reasons. The small areas that I have mowed do not look any better than the areas I can not mow. Actually, most of the areas I have mowed are the ones with less variety and suffer more in late summer. We will see what happens this year. I have been doing this about 4 years now. I do some things a little different every year. When I started I wished I could mow it all, because I had so many weeds. Each year the grass gets thicker and more varieties come in. I see fewer weeds every year. My grass stays green longer and recovers faster. I am seeing new types of grass. I just found a whole bunch of Eastern Gamma Grass that I planted 3 years ago. The Big Bluestem and other NWSG I planted 3 years ago is coming in strong as well. It is looking great. I never knew it was there until late last year. I just grazed the pastures hoping it was down there somewhere. That is pretty exciting to me. July-September I have always struggled with. If the warm season grasses can take hold, that will eliminate that problem. I am trying to graze in favor of the warm season grasses. 

My cows do eat the seed heads when they enter a paddock. Normally they seem to mix the seed heads and low growing clover and other grasses. Right now almost all of my paddocks, except the ones I was in less then 2 weeks ago, have the majority of the cool season grasses with seed heads. I do not think it is a problem to let your grass mature and get a seed head. I do not see any lag in performance when they are on mature pasture. Quite the opposite, the cows seem to do better and the calves seem to grow better. I would need a scale and weigh them monthly to really be able to tell, but they sure look good right now. 

I also have a ton of dung beetles this year. The population seems to grow rapidly every year. I am seeing a lot of the small ones, which are the ones that lay eggs in the patty and would be hurt by dragging. I also have a lot of the medium sized tunnelers. I can't find too many of the big rollers, but the few I have seen are pretty neat to watch. You can't find a cow pie in my pastures that does not have at least some kind of dung beetle activity or the "drill marks" left by them. If I go back to where I was 30 days ago, you can't even find a cow patty - they are gone. Eaten by all natures workers. I will add that the grass from 30 days ago is ready again - but I won't be on it for another 30 days if I can help it. I need to do all I can to let the warm season grasses take hold, and they are coming in. 

With that said, I think any kind of rotational grazing and any variation will produce better, thicker, stronger forage. If you like to mow - go for it. If you like to drag - go for it. It is still much better than continuous grazing.


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## bigbluegrass

ycanchu2 said:


> ...we would have hay up to your waist and thick blades almost knee high.


In my opinion, this comes from healthy grass with a strong root, that has not been stressed. What I see is that stressed grass will put up a seed head right away, only making the bare minimum of leaves needed. It makes sense if you think about it. The grass is trying to protect itself, and when it is stressed the seed is the only way to reproduce. If you let the roots grow and mature, and then graze it, the grass will not be stressed. When it comes back next year, or even later the same year, it will be thicker and have more leaves. As an example, watch grass grow the year after a major drought. It is almost always just a seed head and just the bare minimum of leaves. This is true of any hay field the year after a drought. The first cutting after a drought year is always low in quality and quantity. By the second cutting, it will be producing well, if it has had moisture and hasn't been stressed. At least that is what I see.


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## Gravytrain

I could use some advice on my pasture...I have approximately 25 acres securely fenced and 6 beef heifers and steers (this number will grow next year to at least 10-12) on a large paddock that is taking up about half of that. I'm giving them that much space because this pasture is loaded with goldenrod as well as orchard grass, timothy and ryegrass, and I want to make sure they have enough quality forage. I have another 20 acres adjacent to this that is not fenced. Neither of these areas have been grazed in 20 years or more, but have been brushhogged every couple years.

Today, I mowed (down to 8" or so) the lower ground that should remain moist and green in the worst of the summer heat and polywired them out of it...leaving them with 5 acres less room. Under this goldenrod is a fair amount of orchard grass. 

My question is should I mow the snot out of the fenced area to add organic material to the soil and give room for the grasses that have been laying somewhat dormant for the last couple decades? The soil samples show a low pH (5.5-6.2) and the need for nitrogen, with phosphates and potash a bit on the low side, but not too bad. I probably won't have any use for the unfenced areas this year as I won't have time to fence it and the quality isn't there for haying. What should I do with that area to make it viable pasture/hay for next year beside applying lime which I plan to do this fall?


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## SoldiersRest

I've been reading this thread for a week now. I'm currently deployed to Africa with the National Guard, due home in about a month. I hope to apply these basic principles to my very small acreage (around two acres usable as pasture, after I clear the cedars off half of it) to at least cut down on the hay cost for my horses. I do reaalize some principles are different, and horses are pickier and harder on pasture than cattle, but it seems to be worth a try!



agmantoo said:


> Anyone needing to repair or to seed small areas in the pasture IMO should consider having one of these seeders. This seeder will broadcast very small to large seed and do it accurately and inexpensively. My old broadcast seeder had the bag to fail years ago and until now I could not locate a replacement. This one is made in China but it does work and has what seems to date a better bag than the old one.
> http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-9969-tool-broadcast-spreader.aspx


I will have to seed about an acre from whatever is growing under a dense cedar thicket. Have you used the seeder above enough to know if you still like it? With only two acres, and a strong, willing son, I'm hoping this can be my only seeder.


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## agmantoo

The seeder works fine. It is the same design as the old seeder from years ago with just a few updates. I plan on buying a second seeder to use solely for fertilizer. I often have small areas that for whatever reason need to have some attention and I do not want to use the farm machinery to replant. I will topdress my yard as needed with a little fertilizer using the hand seeder. The hand seeder is also great for putting out clover seed because the seeder can be easily regulated with the small seed. You may want to seed some alfalfa in your horse pasture. PS....Welcome to the site!


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## SoldiersRest

Thanks, Agmantoo, I can't wait to get home and try to put this stuff to work. My son seeded an entire acre with one of the $5 Wal-Mart hand-held yard spreaders, so I think he'll be happy to get this one! If you seem to think I can spread alfalfa with it, it must be pretty capable, that stuff is tiny. I'll probably be able to put seed in no later than the first of August, although I think September is better timing. I plan to use a mix of 50% KY31 (no plans to breed the horses, so the endophyte doesn't worry me) and the rest a mix of ryegrass, alfalfa, and clovers. Not at all sure what is there now, but it got grazed to the dirt last fall, and has been untouched this year,since the animals are at my FIL's place.


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## agmantoo

SoldiersRest

I would go ahead with the liming now to be prepared for the seeding on the rye grass ( I use Marshall variety) and fescue in the Fall. I would like the phosphate and potash applied in the Fall also to get the roots established. Nitrogen application would be held off until Spring and I would go on the low rate to hold the top growth back and let the grasses get better established in event of drought. The early Spring planted legumes should make up for any deficiency once they take hold. My opinion is that it takes 3 years to get a good pasture established. You may consider having a sacrificial area set aside to the horses to lounge as they can be rough on pasture if the grazing is not controlled. On my many trips to Ky one thing that always gets my attention is the big well maintained barns and homes with large acreage pastures along the interstate with just a handful of horses and the many bare spots.


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## agmantoo

Gravytrain said:


> I could use some advice on my pasture...I have approximately 25 acres securely fenced and 6 beef heifers and steers (this number will grow next year to at least 10-12) on a large paddock that is taking up about half of that. I'm giving them that much space because this pasture is loaded with goldenrod as well as orchard grass, timothy and ryegrass, and I want to make sure they have enough quality forage. I have another 20 acres adjacent to this that is not fenced. Neither of these areas have been grazed in 20 years or more, but have been brushhogged every couple years.
> 
> Today, I mowed (down to 8" or so) the lower ground that should remain moist and green in the worst of the summer heat and polywired them out of it...leaving them with 5 acres less room. Under this goldenrod is a fair amount of orchard grass.
> 
> My question is should I mow the snot out of the fenced area to add organic material to the soil and give room for the grasses that have been laying somewhat dormant for the last couple decades? The soil samples show a low pH (5.5-6.2) and the need for nitrogen, with phosphates and potash a bit on the low side, but not too bad. I probably won't have any use for the unfenced areas this year as I won't have time to fence it and the quality isn't there for haying. What should I do with that area to make it viable pasture/hay for next year beside applying lime which I plan to do this fall?


With a ratio of 4 acres per animal and an allocation of half that attempting to get rid of golden rod I see a challenge. Discounting the set aside acreage, that remaining paddock is far too big to get under control by giving the animals access to the entire paddock. I agree with isolating the animals from the moist area that you clipped as that should provide grazing in a few months when you need it. My thoughts would be to allocate small areas, using the polywire, of the non clipped area and to mob graze. This practice will force the animals to trample what they do not want to eat and will prevent the animals from selecting the choicest forage without impacting the golden rod. If circumstances permit move the animals more frequently than once per day. Allocate roughly 2000 square feet of paddock to graze per day until you see how it goes.


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## Gravytrain

agmantoo said:


> With a ratio of 4 acres per animal and an allocation of half that attempting to get rid of golden rod I see a challenge. Discounting the set aside acreage, that remaining paddock is far too big to get under control by giving the animals access to the entire paddock. I agree with isolating the animals from the moist area that you clipped as that should provide grazing in a few months when you need it. My thoughts would be to allocate small areas, using the polywire, of the non clipped area and to mob graze. This practice will force the animals to trample what they do not want to eat and will prevent the animals from selecting the choicest forage without impacting the golden rod. If circumstances permit move the animals more frequently than once per day. Allocate roughly 2000 square feet of paddock to graze per day until you see how it goes.


Thank you for the response agman. Since my last post I've already cut the paddock area roughly to around 5 or 6 acres, and mowed the rest of that first area (about 5 acres) down to about 8 inches. On your recommendation I will reduce their daily paddock size greatly. In the next couple days, 2000 sq. ft. will be difficult to attain logistically...however, I will try to get close to that asap.

In the meantime, I'm wondering what will benefit the remaining 30 acres the most. My instincts tell me to mow...and the areas that will not be used this year or not until later this year, clip low. I thought the areas that I will graze within the next several weeks to a month would benefit from a moderate clip in order to let the grasses peek out from the goldenrod canopy. Does this plan of action have merit or should I rethink this? Also, I would like to reseed at some point, but I'm not sure how well broadcasting would do as thick as the weeds/grass are. I don't really have any bare or semi-bare ground. 

I appreciate the feedback. I've spent years (especially in my youth) doing the grunt work on farms, but I was never the person making these type of decisions.


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## SoldiersRest

agmantoo said:


> SoldiersRest
> 
> I would go ahead with the liming now to be prepared for the seeding on the rye grass ( I use Marshall variety) and fescue in the Fall. I would like the phosphate and potash applied in the Fall also to get the roots established. Nitrogen application would be held off until Spring and I would go on the low rate to hold the top growth back and let the grasses get better established in event of drought. The early Spring planted legumes should make up for any deficiency once they take hold. My opinion is that it takes 3 years to get a good pasture established. You may consider having a sacrificial area set aside to the horses to lounge as they can be rough on pasture if the grazing is not controlled. On my many trips to Ky one thing that always gets my attention is the big well maintained barns and homes with large acreage pastures along the interstate with just a handful of horses and the many bare spots.


I'll be home in about three weeks, so I'll work on liming ASAP, while I have leave after this deployment. I intend to get soil samples run through the extension office as soon as I get home.
I do have a sacrificial area planned, with luck it will be graveled. I have seen the damage horses can do first hand, mine spent last winter literally in my backyard. According to my wife, it is still pure chopped-up clay, no sign of grass at all. Standing around in the wet soil didn't do the animals hooves any good, either.

I work surrounded by those beautiful, multi-million dollar pastures. Unfortunatly, race and show horse owners mostly see pasture as a baby-sitter, to keep the animals busy. They feed in the barn, to control diet.


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## FarmerDavid

Been wasting time mowing hay this week, I hate mowing hay. Had some time to think about rotational grazing. Probably 5 acres of what is my current 20 acres of pasture gets under water whenever we get a good rain. How do you manage something like this with rotational grazing? I can see situations where lots if fencing is washed away or where cows could be grazing a paddock that gets flooded.


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## Gabriel

SR, I would clip it high, not low. By high, I mean 8"-12". Also, I wouldn't apply any nitrogen. You're understocked and not really in need of the growth. Also, nitrogen kills off a lot of the valuable soil critters. It's not really N, it simply makes the existing N that's tied up in carbon available, which means you're burning out future fertility. 

David, can you leave a permanent lane out to some high ground? That would keep the cows safe. Also, I'd manage for a much higher residual in that area. Lots of trampling, but leave it long and let that growth hold the soil down for you.


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## agmantoo

FarmerDavid said:


> Been wasting time mowing hay this week, I hate mowing hay. Had some time to think about rotational grazing. Probably 5 acres of what is my current 20 acres of pasture gets under water whenever we get a good rain. How do you manage something like this with rotational grazing? I can see situations where lots if fencing is washed away or where cows could be grazing a paddock that gets flooded.


I have a 26 acre bottom land area that does flood from time to time. It has standing water now from recent rain. Since I use the polywire for cross fencing only when the cattle are grazed there to form paddocks none of the area has partition fencing subject to being washed away. The main permanent grass planted to this area is fescue. The fescue will tolerate being flooded for some time. I have done the rotational grazing long enough to understand what and how to handle such situations. In the coldest periods of Winter I try to graze the hills with a south eastern exposure. It the wettest periods I again try to use the dryer hillsides. In high heat I give the animals access to the lower areas (damp and cooler) with the best shade. There are times when I cannot make certain things happen and I just go in afterward with seed and equipment and make repairs. With a minimal effort, mucked areas can be easily recovered with nothing more than throwing out some seed and pulling a drag harrow. At times I just let the herd "walk in" seed as they graze. Other times I include clover seed in with the minerals and the animals then distribute the seed. The approach is like many others recommendations I promote, learn what works for you and apply accordingly.


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## FarmerDavid

There is a decent stand if fescue there now, alittle thin so it has a few weeds but not bad. So you'd just manage it so that is what is grazed in July, aug when we don't get much rain? From what I've read in this thread so far I see alot of similarities in our climates.


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## agmantoo

FarmerDavid

By the end of June fescue will have gone dormant here, particularly if it has not been clipped down to around 8 inches high. I have Red River crabgrass interseeded in the low wetter land and I should have the RRCG ready to graze by the 15th of July when things start to turn dry here. I will be back on fescue in September provided we get some rain in August. In late September I hope to start hoarding fescue by stockpiling. This is possibly something you should consider. September, October and November months are critical to me regarding getting through the Winter without hay.


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## SoldiersRest

agmantoo said:


> SoldiersRest
> You may consider having a sacrificial area set aside to the horses to lounge as they can be rough on pasture if the grazing is not controlled.


My horses will be spending a good bit of time in the barn and sacrificial paddock. I'm wondering if the manure dropped there would be best used spread as-is, or if I should compost it first. My concern is that a spreader might get it thick enough to retard growth of my forage, which would be counterproductive. Any thoughts? I still plan to drag the grazing paddocks to break up manure, especially since horses drop a much more solid pile than cattle.


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## agmantoo

SoldiersRest

All farms that I am familiar with have areas that are lacking in nutrients or have some areas with issues such as erosion or traffic patterns from the past. If I was going to rotational graze I would use these problem areas as sacrificial paddocks and rebuild the soil via the manure. My land and that around me is the common red clay that one often sees in detergent commercials. One of the largest manufacturers of brick making machinery is only 10 miles or so from my farm and there are many brick manufacturers within a 30 mile radius. This type soil is subject to compaction and frustrating to farm. However, since converting to rotational grazing and utilizing the manure and other organic matter my paddocks have now taken on a medium brown color and the soil is no longer rock hard.


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## SoldiersRest

The area I plan to use as sacrificial paddock is definitely my worst soil. I'm in an area that is all brown/yellow clay, with large flat limestones "floating" in the clay. The floaters are the origin of the many miles of stone walls on older farms. My whole farm is this type of soil, but the planned loafing paddock, despite being the flattest land I have, has too many of the floaters right on the surface to even consider a plow or tiller. Hopefully, a few years of animals on it will help! Plus, not needing to buy and run a manure spreader is a plus.


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## Ironbutt

A observation of mine about dung beetles & flies, my neighbor uses the mineral blocks with fly control in them and has no dung beetle population. Where I use regular mineral and have a slew of dung beetles. 
But his fly control is much better as I see fewer flies bothering his cows even though we both use fly tags. I spray once a week to help my cows with their fly problem. He just has a sock hanging in his pasture with diesel fuel & sevin.
I tend to think I'm better off as at least I'm building my pasture, but he disagrees. What do you think ?


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## ramiller5675

Are you sure that your neighbor is using mineral blocks with fly control in them, or are they the mineral blocks with wormer in them? I can see where the wormer block might impact the dung beetles, but I don't think that a fly control block would.

I use a loose mineral that has an IGR (insect growth regulator), along with cattle rubs that are treated with pyrethoid (Permethin). Just using those two methods will almost control the flies, but last summer I also started treating them with a generic Ivomectin pour-on wormer.

I don't know if the pour-on is the best type of wormer or if it even worms them at all, but adding it to the mix really helped control the flies, ticks, and lice last year. And, I still have the same amount of dung beetles that I had before. 

It might be that the pour-on wormers aren't really doing as good of a job of worming the cattle and therefore doesn't ever get to the dung beetles to impact them, but it really helps with the flies and ticks. 

I would think that you could both control the flies and build up your pasture at the same time.


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## agmantoo

Ironbutt

From what I have read I fully agree with you. I might add that I have read a lot on the subject. Even Cydectin, from what I have read states that Cydectin does not impact adult dung beetles but the article does not mention what impact there is with immature dung beetles. I am spraying my cattle occasionally with the natural version of the permethrin with an epsom salt and water carrier. My herd is not fly free however the few flies that they have seem to be tolerated.


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## bigbluegrass

How many flies do you consider to be too many? I don't use any kind of fly control. Does this steer have too many flies?
View attachment 11079


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## agmantoo

200 is the number that is quoted to be the point to start treatment. A $10 pump garden sprayer and most home concoctions should bring down that fly load to acceptable.
























































4


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## bigbluegrass

200 is about the same number I have heard. I don't think mine have 200 flies on them or 100 per side. Some of the cows only have about a dozen. The milk cows (Jersey breed) have the fewest flies. That steer in the picture has the most. I don't think he has 200. His dam and grand dam carry some flies, but not near enough that I would consider spraying for them (maybe 50 or 100 at peak fly season). They are both very slick. The steer in the picture still has a hairy coat, I think because he is young (13 months old)

On the topic of flies, I find it interesting that the flies seem to be attracted to some cows more than others. I read some things by Kit Pharo about flies, saying you can breed cows for "fly resistance". 
http://www.pharocattle.com/extrastuff/Cattle/Fly_Resistance.pdf

I spayed for flies one year - then I sold all the cows that had the most flies on them and haven't had as many problems since.

edited to add: in the picture, the steer's dam is right behind him facing the opposite way. The steer's grand dam is the next behind him, facing the same way he is. You can see the grand dam doesn't have many flies. The dam has a few more. The steer has more. It seems I am not using the right bull to keep my fly resistance. One of the Jersey cows is behind them, but you can't see much of her - but she doesn't have more than a dozen flies on her - ever. The red steer to the right and farthest back is her's and he doesn't have any flies either.


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## Ironbutt

Yes I have noticed on my Red Angus cows that they have very few flies. Mostly a few horn flies and the occassional horse fly. Wonder if the red color makes a difference in fly resistance?

But my black angus cows have around a hundred that are concentrated across the back like in your picture. They act like they are miserable sometimes from all the flies. I spray with agman's concoction once a week, but with our every night thunderstorms I don't think it will help until the weather settles.


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## agmantoo

bigbluegrass 
I would not have a lot of concern if my cattle had no more flies than what your cattle have in the pic. I would watch for pinkeye however.

I attended a meeting this year where Jim Gerrish was the speaker and he said not to address the fly issue and not to worm. I am minimally addressing the flies and I have only wormed a few animals over the last few years. Those animals that were wormed needed some attention as most of them were heifers and went through a hard Winter on poor feed while nursing so I was attempting to give them a little assist. I recently did some research on the cattle in India as I know first hand that these cattle are not impacted by flies. I finally found some information that stated that the makeup of the India cattle had a different hair coat than the European cattle. This unique difference is that the India cattle secrete a product (sebum) via their hair that is a repellant to flies.


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## bigbluegrass

I have been watching for pink eye. I haven't had a case of it in about 5 years. I do have a lot of seed heads and mature dead grass on top right now. I have had an excess of forage since the spring green up - around the end of April. Most of the orchard grass and fescue has gone to seed and is now turning brown. The timothy still looks good. The clovers are still going strong. The warm season grasses are really taking off. It doesn't look pretty, but there is still plenty of green. The next rotation I will put a little more pressure on it and trample some of that dead grass into the ground.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, a few questions for you.

1. I'm assuming you having been getting about as much rain as we have this year. Are you noticing that you have a lot more clover than normal? We have loads of it this year and I'm trying to see if it is due to the excess rainfall.
2. I'm familiar with the layout of your farm and can see it on google earth. I was thinking you may have mentioned something in the past about having a dedicated or permanent lane to shade (or maybe you just suggested that to someone else) if so give me an idea from your barn where that lane to shade is.
3. What would you say has made the biggest impact to get your pastures looking as well as all the pictures show for example did you use herbicides, chicken litter, stocking density or something else. 
4. I'm at a cross roads now between trying to decide on spring calving or year round calving. I have some emails out to Jim Gerrish and others using methods similar to yours that only do fall calving on fescue but you seem to be pretty successful with year round. What are your suggestions for me on that considering we having similar conditions.

Thanks


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## agmantoo

Hi

I spent time intending to give you a detailed reply and it went into oblivion when I hit the reply. Here is the condensed version!

Both my computer and my left arm are having issues. I injured my shoulder/arm while helping my neighbor and my computer is on the blink. This reply is on a borrowed machine.

My clover has remained lush and the growing period has been extended with frequent rains.

There is a satellite view of my paddocks somewhere on this site. The main north south lane is marked and you will see some additional lanes leading off to shade.

Chicken litter gets credit for the major change. Minimizing soil compaction and herbicide/insecticide impact on microbes also contribute. I prefer to mechanically deal with the weeds and the cattle manure. To me the fuel expense is not that great and I do not get the residual impact associated with chemicals. I have a pesticide license and I have tried both methods. Somewhere hard work enters into the improvement in my farm.

Jim Gerrish has moved into a colder climate. I would think the cold would impact his decisions.
I like having income throughout the year and I like going into 4 marketing dates instead of 1.
I also watch where the best selling weight range exists. I can market some animals anywhere from 350 lbs to 600+ if the market shifts. If you market in the Fall and the best prices are for the 350 to 400 lb range where would you get any calves?


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## SCRancher

I'm just a little further south of Agmantoo and I have been getting regular rains here - it's been just amazing - as soon as the ground starts to dry out on the surface down comes rain. When I seeded clover some areas took better than others, the area's it took I have 2 foot high clover in front of the cattle - not a patch here or there but so thick you would think it's the only thing I have growing.

I made a mistake however with my shade situation and I think it may have cost me a calf that I believe was stillborn or just too stressed because in the 24 hours between checking on them it dropped and was already in rigor. The cattle had no access to shade and the temp hit 90 - when I checked on them I debated letting them to shade that day and just working them from the other end of the lane back toward the middle but I checked the weather and the 90 of the day was going to be the hottest of the week with temps falling the rest of the week. Lesson learned =(


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## agmantoo

Not that I have had the opportunity to use it recently but I thought that I would share a pic of the drag harrow that was made from some recycled materials I bought. The only new items was the pipe used for the tongue and some bar stock. With the limited use to date of the harrow I have been satisfied with the results. Being nearly 20 wide it doesn't take very long for just a 40 HP tractor to cover some acreage. My rough calculations indicate about 4 acres/hour.


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## kickinbull

Agmantoo, in previous post 2872, you mentioned you were using epsom salt in your fly spray. What is the reason? Tnks. KB


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## kickinbull

In the past while doing research online I came across a story of someone using rotational grazing, but the difference was he didn't have any interior fences. He used a mower. If I remember correctly he would mow an amount that would be like a paddock every day for the cows. Has anyone else tried using this method. If you know of the article and can post I would appreciate. Tnks, KB


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## agmantoo

kickinbull said:


> Agmantoo, in previous post 2872, you mentioned you were using epsom salt in your fly spray. What is the reason? Tnks. KB


I cannot substantiate that the epsom salt actually contributes to the fly control but I read that epsom salt contributes to the healing of insect bites and I also thought it may discourage the flies from biting. Magnesium sulfate is not very palatable. I tasted it! I had read earlier that there was a homemade fly spray that contained the epsom salt so I included it in my concoction knowing it is approved for human consumption.

Having read your question, I made it a point to thoroughly look the herd over today when I moved them. Even with near daily rain storms the fly load per animals was minimal with no more than ~15 to 20 flies.


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## agmantoo

kickinbull said:


> In the past while doing research online I came across a story of someone using rotational grazing, but the difference was he didn't have any interior fences. He used a mower. If I remember correctly he would mow an amount that would be like a paddock every day for the cows. Has anyone else tried using this method. If you know of the article and can post I would appreciate. Tnks, KB


I have to limit the available area allocated because the first thing the animals do is to walk the area over to determine what is the most desirable forage available. I know of farmers in the past that would plow a furrow around standing corn and then install a hot wire in the furrow to limit hogs as to what they were to consume. After doing this for a few days the hogs would come conditioned to not cross the furrow and the farmer could cease to use the hot wire. Never seen it done with cattle.


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## ycanchu2

Someone needs to invent a white laser beam that would project about 300 to 400 ft so that the cattle could see it and think its an electric fence. Just set it over your post and point it in the direction you want.
Now there's an idea somebody can take and make a million dollars off of it.


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## ATPFARM

found a good video on rotational grazing on YouTube....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIHDmlUQ-1o[/ame]


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## Awnry Abe

ATPFARM said:


> found a good video on rotational grazing on YouTube....


Thanks, ATP. That was a good video. I am pondering the conversion of our current rotational grazing setup (weekly moves) to more of a strip-per-day type of arrangement. I have a couple of mega-sized paddocks (relative to the others) that just don't get grazed well. On a whim, I just put up some temporary polywire to bisect the pastures to shorten it--with the goal of keeping the cows from overgrazing the regions nearest to the waterer. The first half of the grazing period went well. They grazed the whole area fairly uniformly. In the first half, water and shade are at opposite corners, so they seem to travel pretty well across the entire half. The second half was a more of a mess because my feeble attempt at quickly putting in a lane using the polywire did not go as well as I had hoped. I'll try a tiny bit harder next time...However...I did not see the use of lanes in that video. It looks like a single strand was advanced through the paddock. That is basically what I had after the lane was destroyed. They still spent the majority of the time grazing the new grass, but I am finding them more and more frequently on the first half, even though there is what I would consider good grass left on the 2nd half. I've looked at the pasture on google earth. It looks like the far corner of the 2nd half is 1200' away from the water. Almost all of it is further than the recommended 800', especially with the way I had my lane. I am suspecting that the distance is at play on what I am observing...

What are your thoughts on the using a lane vs. allowing the cows to back-graze? Does your answer depend on the season?


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## agmantoo

Permitting back grazing is a sure way of reducing the preferred forage and promoting the undesirable plants. That was a well done video and it had much of the content recorded near me. I do not know the people in it however.


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## ycanchu2

The video looked like it was made in the winter or early winter because the theme of it was reducing the need for feeding hay.
I personally don't think not having a back fence is a problem as long as you keep the backfence no more than 3 or 4 days out. What you don't want to do is allow them access to pasture grazed a week or two weeks back. Even in the winter the fescue will grow a little if it gets above 40 degrees.
I'm finding that lengthening my recovery time out to at least 45 days to 2 months or even longer is helping me.


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## baseball

What's the best way to wrap electrified high tensil wire around a metal pipe fence corner?

Also what's the best pin to use on poly posts so that you can easily drop or raise the wire at any given point in the line?


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## agmantoo

baseball said:


> What's the best way to wrap electrified high tensil wire around a metal pipe fence corner?
> 
> *I use the porcelain "doughnuts" and let the wire slide through the hole. Other than doing that I would terminate the wire at the post and make a jumper around a metal post using a piece of the insulated underground hi tensile wire and I would crimp each end of the jumper to the terminated high tensile wire. There is a crimp component made for attaching a wire to an existing wire without having to cut the existing wire.*
> 
> Also what's the best pin to use on poly posts so that you can easily drop or raise the wire at any given point in the line?


*I use the "hair pin/cotter pin" wire clips sold to attach the high tensile to a drilled post. I prefer the longer length version which is roughly 6 inches long. I put the hair pin over the high tensile fence wire and then twist the legs of the hair pin once around the wire so that when I take the hair pin from the post the hair pins cannot lose off the high tensile fence wire.*


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## SCRancher

Regarding back grazing - I try not to do this but when the temps reach above 85 degrees shade becomes more important to me than keeping the cows from back grazing. I have 4 long permanent paddocks that are 200 feet wide by ~2500 feet long but pasture is only about 2000 of the 2500 feet.

With out the hunt for shade I usually give my cows a 200 ft by 100 ft section for them to graze and perform daily moves however once the temps go over 85 I start at the shade and don't put up the back fence thus allowing them to reach the shade which also allows them to back graze. 

Ideallly I would like to limit them to not have access to any 1 spot for more than 6 days which in 3 of the 4 long permenant partitions is no problem but I have 1 of them that the middle is 10 days from the shade so the worst case for me is 4 daily moves worth having more than 6 days of back graze on it.

I could try to make lanes and all that but it's simply not worth the extra setup it would take to create a dynamic lane that is up to 1,000 feet long.

What about water you may be thinking if your not familiar with my setup - I have 6,000 feet of buried water lines with a hydrant every 200 feet, each hydrant serves 2 permanent lanes and I have a mobile water cart that every other day I pull 200 feet down the lane to hook to the next hydrant. My cows are never more than 200 feet away from water except when I am allowing back grazing then I get lazy and leave the water cart in one place close to the shade.


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## ycanchu2

SCRancher said:


> Regarding back grazing - I try not to do this but when the temps reach above 85 degrees shade becomes more important to me than keeping the cows from back grazing. I have 4 long permanent paddocks that are 200 feet wide by ~2500 feet long but pasture is only about 2000 of the 2500 feet.
> 
> With out the hunt for shade I usually give my cows a 200 ft by 100 ft section for them to graze and perform daily moves however once the temps go over 85 I start at the shade and don't put up the back fence thus allowing them to reach the shade which also allows them to back graze.
> 
> Ideallly I would like to limit them to not have access to any 1 spot for more than 6 days which in 3 of the 4 long permenant partitions is no problem but I have 1 of them that the middle is 10 days from the shade so the worst case for me is 4 daily moves worth having more than 6 days of back graze on it.
> 
> I could try to make lanes and all that but it's simply not worth the extra setup it would take to create a dynamic lane that is up to 1,000 feet long.
> 
> What about water you may be thinking if your not familiar with my setup - I have 6,000 feet of buried water lines with a hydrant every 200 feet, each hydrant serves 2 permanent lanes and I have a mobile water cart that every other day I pull 200 feet down the lane to hook to the next hydrant. My cows are never more than 200 feet away from water except when I am allowing back grazing then I get lazy and leave the water cart in one place close to the shade.


 If I figure right you have about 80 days of grazing or 80 days of recovery. If you are in one paddock for 20 days they will definitely be picking new growth, but if you can let it rest for 60 to 80 days you maybe able to overcome it. If you see improvement from year to year it may be ok.


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## ATPFARM

I've seen in several posts links to buy fencing supplies and i was curious where was the best place to buy it all....energizer, posts clips, wire...polywire...etc...
i had made a out a pretty good order at kencove then noticed the shipping (over $100).. and i thought i would wait and post this question.... there was about 200 posts in the order(4ft by 1/2 fiberglass and step in's)...i suppose that will add up anywhere... anyone know of free shipping...?
thanks.


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## SCRancher

I buy my posts and hi-tensile wire at the local TSC - best prices I have found in my area; everything else I ordered from Kencove including my post driver.


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## Awnry Abe

I drive past a Ken-Cove distribution place twice a day. I get quite a bit from them, but not all. I mostly shop around the farm and lumber stores for the best deals.


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## gwithrow

could I ask someone to post a review of exactly how to stockpile grass for winter grazing...currently we are fairly easily doing a 12 week rotation....we have had rain and the grass is thick and green....but if I set half the area aside for January....do I just keep rotating the herd on the other half?.....we are only half way through the second rotation of 2013...we started late into April.....and the cows are fat and sassy now....we will pull off a few calves to sell soon and the cows are due to calve in the fall....

this year with all the rain and improved pastures, (our third year of rotating) it seems like we are ready to see how far we can get with out hay or using very little....we will have 9 cow/calf pairs and a bull and two steers to feed on a total of maybe 25 acres....the pastures are of varying quality......though with the rain all look good for the moment...

our goal is to do without hay, but we also want the highest quality soil/grass we can develop out here..these pastures were almost ruined with cotton and corn so it will take a while to restore them...

I understand stockpiling but would just like to know more of the actual how to do it...thanks


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## agmantoo

Hi gwithrow,

Here is what I do.
Around the end of September when the fescue begins its growth I put the herd on a fast and controlled rotation on the tallest forage. I set aside the area that I will use for stockpiled Winter grazing. I usually use the hilly ground with an eastern or southern exposure because it will be the warmest and the less muddy land during Winter. This time period is the Fall growth season for the grass and the nutrient level is good so I may reduce the area allocated particularly in the drier years. During this time I will pull the drag harrow behind the grazing cattle as I want a uniform distribution of the manure so that when the cattle return they will graze the complete paddock rather than avoiding the cow patties. If I have bare spots or insufficient stands of grass in the area that I am stockpiling I would have seeded Marshall ryegrass in early September. The area that is being grazed will be rotated several times before going onto the stockpiled paddocks. If you utilize the area being grazed to maximum you will find that even late in the year you will still get some growth on warm days. I would not expect you to go onto stockpiled grass until mid January at the earliest. Do not concern yourself with grazing the grass too short in late December and January as the fescue is going dormant regardless. I do like to have at least part of the stockpiled area overseeded to give a burst of growth starting in March. In difficult years I will sometimes in Spring have to return to the area that was grazed in the Fall to get a few more days of grazing till the weather warms breaking dormancy.


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## agmantoo

I am in the process of getting ready to start the preparation for stockpiling. Clipping the recently grazed acres to reduce weeds from going to seed and planning on what I will do where the cattle trampled the paddocks bare with the abundance of rain we have experienced. My conclusion is that I will plant a mixture of Ky 31 fescue and Marshall rye grass and add some Brome seed. This will be my first sowing of Brome grass. However, I did have some volunteer Brome this Spring and the growth was impressive and the cattle seemed to like the taste. My observation was that the Brome unfortunately did not have the staying characteristic of the fescue. As the weather warmed the Brome lost its sustainability. When I went about these tasks today it was difficult to realize that it was 26 July. The weather was mild and when I went to move the herd it was hard to believe the amount of forage that is present. Normally at this time of year I am checking the crabgrass to see if I will have enough forage to make it through August. Here is how things looked late this evening. Fat content cattle and lush forage.....


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## ATPFARM

It has been a near perfect growing season here as well... normally last 2 weeks of july and the 1st 2 weeks of august are our hottest and driest....sunday our high is to be in the 70's...

beautiful pasture and cattle... thanks for sharing pic.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Hi gwithrow,
> 
> Here is what I do.
> *Around the end of September when the fescue begins its growth I put the herd on a fast and controlled rotation on the tallest forage. I set aside the area that I will use for stockpiled Winter grazing*. I usually use the hilly ground with an eastern or southern exposure because it will be the warmest and the less muddy land during Winter. This time period is the Fall growth season for the grass and the nutrient level is good so I may reduce the area allocated particularly in the drier years. During this time I will pull the drag harrow behind the grazing cattle as I want a uniform distribution of the manure so that when the cattle return they will graze the complete paddock rather than avoiding the cow patties. If I have bare spots or insufficient stands of grass in the area that I am stockpiling I would have seeded Marshall ryegrass in early September. The area that is being grazed will be rotated several times before going onto the stockpiled paddocks. If you utilize the area being grazed to maximum you will find that even late in the year you will still get some growth on warm days. I would not expect you to go onto stockpiled grass until mid January at the earliest. Do not concern yourself with grazing the grass too short in late December and January as the fescue is going dormant regardless. I do like to have at least part of the stockpiled area overseeded to give a burst of growth starting in March. In difficult years I will sometimes in Spring have to return to the area that was grazed in the Fall to get a few more days of grazing till the weather warms breaking dormancy.


1) What do you mean by fast rotations? are you giving them a lot more area per day than normal?
2) how much do you set aside to stockpile?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

Here is the breakdown of what I will be doing.

I have enough forage to carry me into September. However I am already starting to graze my low land that will typically get too wet for Winter grazing. This land will not be stockpiled for Winter use. The acres, ~56 to 68, to be stockpiled will be grazed and clipped within the next 45 days. I am planning for enough forage for 75 to 90 days for Winter stockpiling. Paddock size will be ~3/4 acres/day.

With the above reserved land I will have 110 head of breeding age cows on ~70 acres. This is where the fast and reduced allocation of forage comes into play. The cattle are fat and slick and the weather will be hot to mild thru Dec. I will cut back on the size of the paddocks and I will take the cattle off before they graze the grass too short. My intent is to provide enough forage to maintain their condition but not to add weight. As Nov winds down I will attempt to get any of this grazed acreage to put on some forage growth just in case the reserved stockpile area has not grown as it should have or if Winter lingers. Of the 141 acres of pasture you can see that I will have to maintain the herd on ~ half the area until they herd goes on stockpile forage and then the herd will have the remaining 1/2 till Spring grass comes on. This is the biggest challenge of year round grazing IMO.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> ycanchu2
> 
> Here is the breakdown of what I will be doing.
> 
> I have enough forage to carry me into September. However I am already starting to graze my low land that will typically get too wet for Winter grazing. This land will not be stockpiled for Winter use. The acres, ~56 to 68, to be stockpiled will be grazed and clipped within the next 45 days. I am planning for enough forage for 75 to 90 days for Winter stockpiling. Paddock size will be ~3/4 acres/day.
> 
> With the above reserved land I will have 110 head of breeding age cows on ~70 acres.* This is where the fast and reduced allocation of forage* comes into play. The cattle are fat and slick and the weather will be hot to mild thru Dec. I will cut back on the size of the paddocks and I will take the cattle off before they graze the grass too short. My intent is to provide enough forage to maintain their condition but not to add weight. As Nov winds down I will attempt to get any of this grazed acreage to put on some forage growth just in case the reserved stockpile area has not grown as it should have or if Winter lingers. Of the 141 acres of pasture you can see that I will have to maintain the herd on ~ half the area until they herd goes on stockpile forage and then the herd will have the remaining 1/2 till Spring grass comes on. This is the biggest challenge of year round grazing IMO.


 I guess i'm still confused by what you mean by fast rotation, if you keep 70 acres to graze.....at 1 acre/day is 70 days and at 3/4 ac/day you have 90 days....those are pretty long rotations and recovery periods. A good thing.
I hear guys talk about fast rotations in the spring during the spring flush.....like giving the cows several acres a day in order to keep the grass under control.


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## gwithrow

thanks for asking for more clarity...so the fall rotation, Sept-Dec, is on half your total area, and the paddock sizes are smaller?....makes sense to me...while the other areas have been clipped following the last of summer rotation and perhaps dragged as well?....then they are allowed to grow, no cows until January......seems like this is a good year to jump in there with trying to see how far we can go with stockpiled forage....
so we are now getting ready for the last full rotation....ready to follow the cows with drag and seed......??

also I am getting blank looks when I ask for Marshall rye....any suggestions in this area for that?


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## Go for 300

Hopefully my upload works.

First picture is after day one. I left the calves in this paddock another day to get a comparison, see second photo when we moved them tonight.

I will say moving them is easy since they knew the grass was greener on the other side.

I have a challenge with water sources. I am going at this with limited water sources, so they will need to back graze for 4-6 days at most. Not ideal, but it is what it is for now.

From those who are doing this on a viable scale, was there too much material removed by leaving them two days? 

We are about 95% done with the cross fencing so we will be following this program the rest of the year to see how it progresses. We have been in three main fields so far, but now trying to break them down to allow for better management. The rotation before was not intense by any means, but much better than a free for all I think. Prior to these photos the rotations varied from 10 days to 3 weeks (not ideal by any means).

Any suggestions on leaving too much, too little? There are a total of 32 acres ready to MIG, so rest period should by about 30 days minimum. Got another 90 ac that we will stockpile for winter. So long as snow/ice or mud for that matter, don't keep us off the stockpile, I hope it will carry the 60 cows a long ways into winter.


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## Go for 300

Looks like this one didn't come through. This was after day one.


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## agmantoo

Go for 300

Welcome to the site! 

IMO your paddocks are too large for the number of animals being grazed. I think your animals may be manuring much of the forage rather than eating it. Reducing the area and increasing the frequency of the moves will give a more uniform height of the residue. Leaving several inches of grass should be enough plant to promote rapid regrowth. Leaving to much grass with varying height will give spotty regrowth from my experience and the weeds left (not trampled) will give the weeds a head start. From the pic it appears you have adequate water and that water will give you plenty of regrowth even if you graze down to the 2 to 3 inch level. Consuming the grass to a lower height will lengthen the recovery period and overall it will greatly expand your grazing days. On the area to be grazed during the time period when you have snow or ice, getting the height to maximum will help. I usually have snow or ice no more than several times a year. My animals will push the snow aside or break thin ice as they prefer stockpiled grass over hay. I actually reserve 5 to 6 acres near the drive for adverse weather for bad weather feeding. PS.....what part of Oregon are you located, Central or Eastern?


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## Go for 300

Thanks for the welcome. We are in southern Oregon on the easy side of the cascade range. Get an average of 12 inches precipitate, with most from Oct to April. We do have irrigation, so long as the reservoir fills.

I will try and post a shot from this morning off myself phone. Wildfires in area are making the haze, but these were after moving them last night. I don't think the area is more than a quarter acre, and there are 80 yearlings.


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## Go for 300

Guess I will try again.


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## agmantoo

on post 2907 isn't that pic after grazing? That is the pic I was responding to with my comments.


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## Go for 300

Yes the photo in 2907 was after two days, just prior to moving them last night. Trying to learn. Thank you for the feedback.

The last photo was after about 12 hours.


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## Go for 300

where is the best place to buy pigtail posts? I bought the yellow ones you see in the pictures from Kencove, as it was the best price I could find on step ins with multiple height selections...

But with them being "flexible" I have a hard time getting them stepped in in certain areas. Just thought the pigtails might be a little easier as you could push from the top and set at the same time. Just a thought. The multiple wire posts work good around the alfalfa fields that I put them in for a couple days to eat the corners and such that are not hayable, hopefully they will grow back and give more area for the rotation.

Anyone strip grazing alfalfa or grassy/alfalfa in the winter. I am debating doing so with either the third cutting, or possibly the regrowth after the third cutting. I don't think there is much bloat danger if grazed after a good killing frost since it is common for people here to turn in once it dries out in the late fall or freezes solid in the the early winter. My only concern about not taking that third cutting is getting too much forage, if there is such a thing, that I cannot control the paddock size small enough so they clean it off like it would be if it were cut clean the first part of September. We have easy access to water now with irrigation ditches full, but those will also go dry in the fall and/or freeze over for winter. I could run a lane up one side on the four wheeler trail to get to a livestock well, but need more posts and more wire.

I have read on this thread multiple thanks to Agmantoo for his contribution. I would like to also applaud the information I have gathered over the past 2 years reading this information. I have done exhaustive research, and now it is time to put it into practice. But as much information that is out there "for sale"; I don't think it is contains as much "value" as the collection of efforts on this site.

I will most likely have lots of questions for a while, but hope to someday be able to offer my own contributions from my experience in MIG. With any luck it will be from someone who was able to make it work where they all say it can't. (and believe me "they", whether it neighbors, friends, or peers are all on the "can't/won't work here). But feeding hay for 4-5 months a year isn't gonna cut it anymore. Not for me.


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## agmantoo

Valley Vet has the ParMak brand of pigtail posts. These posts are IMO the best on the market but they are a little more expensive. Do not buy the ParMak posts from Amazon because it is a ripoff. ParMak posts were intended to be sold in packs of 10 but from Amazon you will get a single (1) post and you will never get the situation corrected. The ParMak posts will last for years. The Kencove posts are for a left handed user. A right handed person will find them awkward to use. I can put the ParMak post in without pausing as I walk. Kencove was to notify me when they modified their post but this has not happened. I returned the 100 count order because they were not user friendly as I am right handed. Maybe I am just lazy but as many posts as i handle daily I like to do the chore efficiently.

I have no alfalfa experience

Go for 300, even as you fine tune your operation your neighbors will not accept that what you are doing is considerably more profitable. I had the extension agent to visit recently and the agent acknowledged the unwillingness of the farmers to make a change. I was asked to host a farm visit for area farmers in an effort convert others in the area to the method. IMO the user has to want to make the change and those that do not want to change will not be converted even if they go under financially. It seems acceptable to fail using conventional ways rather to succeed by changing. As a user of rotational grazing techniques you will be viewed as "different and maybe a little weird". Just smile to yourself and enjoy the trip to the bank as they wonder how they will get through the Winter and where the money will come from to remain in business.


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## SCRancher

300 - Winter grazing of the alfalfa - I too do not have any experience of grazing alfalfa however once things have settled for winter - hard freeze and you will get NO regrowth from the field till spring then IMO it is safe to to allow back grazing so your water situation is not has hard as you would imaging, just start at the water and move the forward fence putting up NO back fence - since alfalfa is such good forage you may want to consider strip grazing - moving twice (or more) a day so they don't trample as much as once a day moves.

Now the problem is I don't know what effect this will have on your alfalfa field - especially if it get's wet they could damage the field. From what reading I have done on alfalfa a farmer will typically get 5 years out of a planting - will this reduce the stand thickness or longevity? Sorry I can't answer that.

Once you have gained firsthand knowledge about it add it back to the thread!

Good luck on your rotational journey!


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## bigbluegrass

Go for 300 said:


> where is the best place to buy pigtail posts? I bought the yellow ones you see in the pictures from Kencove, as it was the best price I could find on step ins with multiple height selections...
> 
> Anyone strip grazing alfalfa or grassy/alfalfa in the winter.


I like the pigtail posts Tractor Supply has. The only problem I have with them is the insulating plastic on them doesn't hold up very well. I took some small pieces of garden hose and slid them over the top to add to the insulation. I had quite a few that the wire cut through the insulation and shorted out at the post. I also found some with the bottom support/step on backwards (for me). I like the curl of the pigtail and the bottom support/step to face the same way. I use them to make corners and if the two are on opposite sides, it doesn't hold the corner very well. I haven't tried Kencove or ParMak. I have tried O'Brien brand. I didn't like them as much. I tend to bend them up a bit more. I like O'Brien plastic step in posts and I don't like the Tractor Supply plastic step in posts. I guess we all develop our own preferences depending on how you do things.

I have quite a bit of alfalfa in most of my pastures (at least the ones that are not in the wooded areas). It varies between 10% to 60% of my total forage, depending on the season and the pasture. In the early spring the cool season grasses provide plenty of forage and it is closer to the 10% of the forage. In the middle of summer (now) it is close to 60% of the forage, since the cool season grasses aren't growing as quickly. I have rotated through the grass/alfalfa in the winter. My main concern in the winter around here is the alfalfa roots. If it is really muddy, you could damage the roots. I have a few small areas that had too many cows in too small of an area with muddy conditions and they tore up the ground pretty bad and killed everything, alfalfa included. I thought (from what I read) that the greatest risk for bloat was right after (the next day or two) a killing frost, since the plant leaves are damaged from the frost and break down too quickly. However, I just keep with my rotations (even after a frost) and have not had any problems. Bloat seems to be more of an individual animal problem than a whole management problem. I have one cow that bloats some, but does not seem to have any adverse affects from it (she keeps eating fine). She is more likely to bloat on spring clover. I have not seen her bloat on alfalfa near as bad as clover. Anytime you change the feed, you need to work them in slowly. If they have never been on alfalfa, I would warm them up to it slowly. My cows graze alfalfa grass mix pretty much all year round. They love the new growth, so you have to back fence if it is actively growing. There is some alfalfa in the pasture now that has regrown 8"-10" in the past 7-12 days. It comes back fast. Just watch them. In my opinion alfalfa is a great forage for grazing and building soil. I seeded some last fall that looks really good and will probably end up 60% to 80% of the forage in that pasture.


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## SCRancher

Bigbluegrass - how did you seed your alfalfa? Broadcast, no-till, conventional till???


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## bigbluegrass

Broadcast with a hand spreader. I planted some in the spring and some in the fall. The fall planting seemed to do the best, but that may have been the year.


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## ycanchu2

Does anybody know if Parmak makes the pigtail posts with white plastic pigtails or are they all yellow? I like the white better....better visibility IMO.


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

I have only seen the yellow. My observation is that the Parmak posts have a better foot section as the metal on the ones I have seem stronger and the point is sharp. The workmanship seems to also be more uniform and consistent. Attention to detail is better also. Parmak has a listed phone number that is available through a Google search. I have called and talked to a knowledgeable and willing to help person.


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## Go for 300

Are the parmak posts worth double? The freight to me from valley vet makes them just over double then free shipping from kencove. I think I will give the kencove ones a shot as I think for corners having the curl and the step would help with the additional strain.

Anyone plant peas for an annual grazing crop? 

Calves are doing good. Got one that likes the greener grass on the other side of the fence. But others won't go near it.


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## ATPFARM

300... check your shipping at check out from kencove... I had a large order of the same item along with other items.... definitely was not free


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## agmantoo

Go for 300,

Here is a source that has a cheaper shipping of pigtail posts to you location. I have never bought from them and the Parmak pigtail posts are still higher than Kencove. I would probably pay the premium especially for dry weather when it becomes difficult to push posts into hard soil.
http://www.hardwareworld.com/cart.aspx


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## CedarMoore

Agman, thanks for posting your plans for your fall and winter grazing. I stockpile about an acre for each cow, but I have had some problems in waiting until January to graze the stockpile. I don't I will have the problem this year due to all the rain we had this year. You said you were planning on clipping your fields behind your grazing cattle for the stockpile. Will clip lower than you normally do? The "Experts" recommend clipping at about 4 inches at the middle or end of August for the stockpile.

I like your manure spreader. Does it work well on dried patties? I also use a homemade spreader, works a lot better than a chain harrow.


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## dannybardwell

i want to plant Ball clover this fall.... is it a problem to evenly disperse small amounts of seed (4-6 lbs per acre)? any suggestions?


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## agmantoo

danny

For very small seed the only seeder that I have had success with using is the Herd seeder. You can see one here http://www.kascomfg.com/kasco_seeders_g77_atv.html One way to set the opening is with using a drill bit as a gauge pin and set the opening to where the ball clover seed can just barely pass through. If you are not careful you will broadcast to many seed. Rather than sow too thick I had rather sow thin and then make a second pass if needed. I took the adjustment for the herd seeder off and replaced it using a micrometer head as a stop. There is a pic in this lengthy rotational grazing post of the modified seeder should you want to see it. Once you are satisfied with your setting you can use the micrometer reading and reset the seed rate again in the future for future seedings.


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## Ironbutt

Agman, Can the herd seeder be adapted to mount to the front bumper of my JD Gator without alot of modifing, so I can see whats being spread. Also is it capable of spreading fluffy seed?


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## SCRancher

Danny, why Ball Clover and not White Clover? 

I have had TREMENDOUS success with white and red clover.

The clovers I put down were:
Kenland Red Clover
Durana White
Patroit White
Advantage White Ladino Clover

The amounts of seed I used on my 40 acres of pasture were
25 pounds Durana
25 pounds Patroit
50 pounds Advantage
50 pounds Kenland Red

I did nothing to disturb the soil when seeding other than a chain drag harrow for the fall planting.

I used an ATV mounted seeder - I don't remember the brand name I set the seeder to spread very thin and made multiple passes.

I tried both fall seeded on 1/2 of my pasture and winter seeded on the other 1/2 - I had less luck with the fall seeded due to drought conditions that year but had great success with the winter (frost) seeded.

Mixed in a few areas I have a very little crimson clover from where I was putting in water lines - my goal hopefully this fall is to spread about 5 pounds per acre of Dixie Crimson Clover on the areas where I don't have as much clover and in my recovered beaver pond area.

I do not think I will ever have to reseed my white clovers as they have dumped enough produced seed on the soil to create a permanent seed bank.


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## ycanchu2

Ironbutt said:


> Agman, Can the herd seeder be adapted to mount to the front bumper of my JD Gator without alot of modifing, so I can see whats being spread. Also is it capable of spreading fluffy seed?


 You should be able to if it is for an ATV. I have a herd seeder that mounts to the frame of my 4 wheeler also I can mount it to the front of my tractor.


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## agmantoo

*Also is it capable of spreading fluffy seed?*

On the fluffy seed I would want to only partially fill the hopper. Being fluffy IMO the seed would want to bridge creating a void above the metering mechanism. The Herd seeder has a small "agitator" device above the seed exit and this aids in the continuous flow of the seed out of the hopper. Though the Herd unit is expensive it should give years of service and the wear parts are replaceable from parts available from the manufacturer.


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## dannybardwell

sc rancher... i'm open to all suggestions...


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## SCRancher

Well when I was researching clovers I found the following thread and while LONG and targeted primarily at hunting and in Iowa I found it to be an excellent resource and anyone wishing to get a better understanding of clovers it is IMO worth the read.

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15076


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## MNSteader

Hello. I just came across this thread and am certainly enjoying the read. I live on a farm in Northern MN and we are currently rotational grazing 25 cows with calves. We just bought this farm almost exactly one year ago and this was totally new to us. We got hooked up with a local grazing specialist and he got us started on the right path. We had to basically start from scratch and for the time being are using another farmers cows until we can build up our own herd. We have seen a nice improvement in our pasture after doing this for the better part of 1 year and look forward the future. I only know of a couple of farms in our area that truly do things this way and all the other guys think we are nuts... Anyway, I just wanted to jump in quick and say thanks for the good info and it's nice to read about others who are as "nuts" as we are....


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, I remember last year you were having a good bit of Horsenettle in your pasture, asking for suggestions to control it. Did you have any success. With the year being so wet we have tons of it this year.


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## lakeportfarms

We do strip grazing 2x per day with about 70 Dexters in Michigan. We have hundreds of the Zareba pigtails, but we've been so impressed with the Gallagher step ins that we picked up at a local store that we keep buying out their stock, and the Zarebas have been consigned to the "well, if we have to use them" pile. We set up nearly a week worth of moves in advance, so the time it takes to move them is negligible on a daily basis. These are the economy Gallagher pigtails, but the steel seems to be hardened, the metal appears to have a durable white coating on it, and on the pigtail portion the end is covered so there is no chance of a short if the vinyl sleeve shifts, as was the case with the Zareba posts.

I think you can buy them online if you're not around any of their stores, here is the link:

https://www.familyfarmandhome.com/inet/storefront/store.php?mode=showproductdetail&product=9167


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## SCRancher

lakeportfarms - can you take a pic or make a drawing of how you setup a week in advance - I know how I can do 4 days at 1 a day but a week at 2 a day is pretty impressive.


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## agmantoo

*


randyandmegs said:



Agmantoo, I remember last year you were having a good bit of Horsenettle in your pasture, asking for suggestions to control it. Did you have any success. With the year being so wet we have tons of it this year.

Click to expand...

*

I still have horsenettle in some of the paddocks. IMO the welcome rains that we have had contributed to the germination of the horsenettle. At this point I have continued to do some clipping with the rotary mower to minimize the horsenettle seed from maturing. I also have reduced the paddock sizes thus using the herd to trample the horsenettle plants. Additionally, next month I will plant more annual rye grass and attempt to suppress the undesirable plants come Spring.


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## lakeportfarms

SCRancher said:


> lakeportfarms - can you take a pic or make a drawing of how you setup a week in advance - I know how I can do 4 days at 1 a day but a week at 2 a day is pretty impressive.



I'll get some better photos of the full setup in the next couple days for you but this is what I have now. We've tried to be pretty creative (and cheap) with some of the materials that we use. For example, instead of the reels made for rotational grazing, we found inexpensive extension cord reels for $8 and used those instead. The ones in the photo are what we started with, but now we're using a little more expensive ($13) and better quality one that seems like it will hold up better in the long run. It actually rolls up pretty fast. We made up some 3/4" PVC ends with jumpers to connect to the hot fence, so we can leave the perimeter fence on even when moving the temporary lines. We're gradually reworking all our fencing to hi-tensile, so I'm made a few changes in how it connects to that fence, but the idea is the same. The snow is too deep here in the winter to do any grazing, so these reels have been holding up pretty well for the 4 years or so that we have been using them.







For water we now use an Igloo cooler that has a handle and wheels, combined with an auto waterer and quick connect fittings. I used to use a portable cart but the quality of the powder coat wasn't very good, and I figured it would require too much maintenance on an annual basis. The Igloo cooler has been holding up well. Bear in mind we are just running Dexters here so they're not real hard on things like some other breeds might be. I've put some frost free hydrants at various areas of the property, and run hose from them. Our water lines need to be at least 5' below grade, so that's why we rely extensively on hoses from there.



We'll usually give them a 10 foot strip, and move the back line every couple of days. The movable water and mineral allows us to do this pretty easily. We have a very old apple orchard with several hundred trees at least, so they always have shade available from the trees along the strips. We have some areas where we've trimmed really big mature branches from the trees, and we wind the polywire and step ins around all the cut branches. Despite all the mess, they have been very respectful of the hot fence and trim the grass really well around all the branches so we can see them to clean them up when we have the time to do so. It's been a huge project for us as the orchard had been neglected for nearly 20 years.


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## ATPFARM

lakeportfarms said:


> I'll get some better photos of the full setup in the next couple days for you but this is what I have now. We've tried to be pretty creative (and cheap) with some of the materials that we use. For example, instead of the reels made for rotational grazing, we found inexpensive extension cord reels for $8 and used those instead. The ones in the photo are what we started with, but now we're using a little more expensive ($13) and better quality one that seems like it will hold up better in the long run. It actually rolls up pretty fast. We made up some 3/4" PVC ends with jumpers to connect to the hot fence, so we can leave the perimeter fence on even when moving the temporary lines. We're gradually reworking all our fencing to hi-tensile, so I'm made a few changes in how it connects to that fence, but the idea is the same. The snow is too deep here in the winter to do any grazing, so these reels have been holding up pretty well for the 4 years or so that we have been using them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For water we now use an Igloo cooler that has a handle and wheels, combined with an auto waterer and quick connect fittings. I used to use a portable cart but the quality of the powder coat wasn't very good, and I figured it would require too much maintenance on an annual basis. The Igloo cooler has been holding up well. Bear in mind we are just running Dexters here so they're not real hard on things like some other breeds might be. I've put some frost free hydrants at various areas of the property, and run hose from them. Our water lines need to be at least 5' below grade, so that's why we rely extensively on hoses from there.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll usually give them a 10 foot strip, and move the back line every couple of days. The movable water and mineral allows us to do this pretty easily. We have a very old apple orchard with several hundred trees at least, so they always have shade available from the trees along the strips. We have some areas where we've trimmed really big mature branches from the trees, and we wind the polywire and step ins around all the cut branches. Despite all the mess, they have been very respectful of the hot fence and trim the grass really well around all the branches so we can see them to clean them up when we have the time to do so. It's been a huge project for us as the orchard had been neglected for nearly 20 years.


Never would have thought of a kooler....Neat...:clap:


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## Ironbutt

Your cows in the photo's don't look like Dexter's?


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## lakeportfarms

Ironbutt said:


> Your cows in the photo's don't look like Dexter's?


There is one miniature Hereford in there and her little bull calf. The others are dun, red, and black Dexters.


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## Allen W

agmantoo said:


> *Also is it capable of spreading fluffy seed?*
> 
> On the fluffy seed I would want to only partially fill the hopper. Being fluffy IMO the seed would want to bridge creating a void above the metering mechanism. The Herd seeder has a small "agitator" device above the seed exit and this aids in the continuous flow of the seed out of the hopper. Though the Herd unit is expensive it should give years of service and the wear parts are replaceable from parts available from the manufacturer.


 
I was surprised to find them competitively priced with other similar style plastic hopper spreaders. I also seen they had a native seeds kit Possibly for fluffy seeds? Maybe some day down the road I can get one, older style ones occasionally show up on farm sales.


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## randyandmegs

Allen W. Try Craigslist. I have seen good deals on older ones there. Even if it is a ways off they could ship it to you. The Farmers Co-op in Tn and NC rent theirs out and after a while once they have made their money back plus some profit they sell the unit to the public much cheaper. Just a thought.


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## gwithrow

as we are now almost to the end of August, I realize that we need more clarification on the 'how to' part of stockpiling...

we are just now ending our second rotation of the year, in fact it was too long a time for some areas that we just sort of skipped over and bush hogged...and we are truly grateful for the rain and grass.....

so where does this leave us now?...do we just leave out half the pastures for the next three months?...which would mean a 6 week rotation two times before January over the half we are not setting aside??? 

should we bush hog behind the cows as we finish this last part of the second rotation?....then let the 'stockpiled' areas just grow until Jan? we are also waiting on our Marshall rye seed order and will broadcast where we can....however we do not have a drill and the grass has been so thick that I think some of the seed will not ever get down to the ground....not sure what to do about that....I suppose we could broadcast ahead of the cows and hope they will trample the seed in?

we should have new calves in October...so I want those mommas to have all they need to get those babies off to a good start....

thanks for all thoughts as we try to work this plan...or maybe just get the plan in place....


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## Ironbutt

I purchased a herd seeder for the front of my JD gator which I intend to sow my Marshall Rye. I am planning to broadcast behind my cows in rotation. I plan to pull a cultipacker behind the gator to push the seed in contact with the ground. Last year just broadcasting I didn't get as good a stand and noticed alot of the seed that didn't fall down enough to germinate. Hope my plan to cultipack will increase my stand this year as with our record rainfall I've got more grass than I had last year.


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## bigbluegrass

I am trying to get my stockpile in order for winter as well, so I would be interested in replies from those more experienced. Last year I grazed all winter, but I did use a good deal of hay to supplement my stockpile (needed or not). I have much thicker grass this year.

My basic plan for this year, from several articles I have read, is to divide the farm into winter grazing areas now (on paper, not with fencing yet). I will restrict the grazing for September 1 through October 31 to roughly 1/3 of my grazing area (it is a little less). I am putting them on an area during that time that I skipped in my earlier rotation, so it has pretty decent grass. I am going to graze that hard, still moving them everyday. This gives the remaining 2/3 of the farm time to regrow. Most articles recommend putting fertilizer down on the 2/3, but I do not use any commercial fertilizers, so I am going to try it without fertilizer. Starting November 1, I will start grazing the remaining 2/3. I have that area divided up for my daily moves and should last until April. I will still buy hay this year since I don't have a system really figured out for stockpiling and I am not 100% confident in my ability yet. 

In my opinion, if your grass is so thick that you don't think the seed will make contact with the ground this fall, I would save the ryegrass seed. I don't think it will sprout and even if it does, it will have too much competition to grow. I would seed more bare or open areas.

Interested in replies from others.


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> as we are now almost to the end of August, I realize that we need more clarification on the 'how to' part of stockpiling...
> 
> we are just now ending our second rotation of the year, in fact it was too long a time for some areas that we just sort of skipped over and bush hogged...and we are truly grateful for the rain and grass.....
> 
> so where does this leave us now?...do we just leave out half the pastures for the next three months?...which would mean a 6 week rotation two times before January over the half we are not setting aside???
> 
> should we bush hog behind the cows as we finish this last part of the second rotation?....then let the 'stockpiled' areas just grow until Jan? we are also waiting on our Marshall rye seed order and will broadcast where we can....however we do not have a drill and the grass has been so thick that I think some of the seed will not ever get down to the ground....not sure what to do about that....I suppose we could broadcast ahead of the cows and hope they will trample the seed in?
> 
> we should have new calves in October...so I want those mommas to have all they need to get those babies off to a good start....
> 
> thanks for all thoughts as we try to work this plan...or maybe just get the plan in place....


Here is my 2 cents and what I plan to do and am now doing. I am like you just starting into my third rotation this year. I think the key is.....long rotations, long recovery periods....like 100 days or more. 100 days from today will put you at about Dec. 1st. This rotation from now to Dec.1st will be stockpiling(regrowing) from now till then. When Dec. 1st gets here you should have at least another 90 to 100 days of winter grazing, which should put you at march 10th. You may be able to make smaller allotments in the winter since the nutritional value of the cool season grasses will rise and therefore taking you further into spring plus whatever regrowth you get during the winter during possible warm spells.


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## gwithrow

thank you, of course this year is not a typical year since we have had soooo much rain...but it might be a great year to try to go without hay.....actually the 90 day rotation has almost been too long a time for some areas.....but I will watch and use the bush hog as needed to keep anything from getting really out of control....some of our pastures still have a bunch of blackberries and they just grew way too big...too fast...

but with the sowing of the marshall rye behind the cows at least through 
Sept....should give me something good to come back to in March...how late in the fall can I sow the rye?

my goal is to keep the cows in good condition through the whole year...and of course the pastures are already better than when we started...plus with the rain we still have clover blooming and almost immediate regrowth...

I can see how in time the soil and pastures will recover and we can increase herd size gradually as conditions improve...


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## Gabriel

I wouldn't mow behind the cattle when you're headed into a slow growth season. I observe my cattle eating old growth on the second pass what they didn't on the first. On lush pastures they'll willingly eat a small amount of junk hay, if it's available, so why not let it be standing hay?


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## agmantoo

I mow behind the herd to prevent undesirable plants to mature thus creating more undesirable seed to germinate in the future. With the rain here this summer I did not want to get onto the wet soil that is prone to compact. As a result I have had more weeds than anytime in the recent past. Where I did manage to mow I have a good stand of 2/3rds growth of forage and minimal weeds. This is the first time that I have annual rye grass (volunteer) emerging in August.


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> thank you, of course this year is not a typical year since we have had soooo much rain...but it might be a great year to try to go without hay.....actually the 90 day rotation has almost been too long a time for some areas.....but I will watch and use the bush hog as needed to keep anything from getting really out of control....some of our pastures still have a bunch of blackberries and they just grew way too big...too fast...
> 
> but with the sowing of the marshall rye behind the cows at least through
> Sept....should give me something good to come back to in March...*how late in the fall can I sow the rye?*
> 
> my goal is to keep the cows in good condition through the whole year...and of course the pastures are already better than when we started...plus with the rain we still have clover blooming and almost immediate regrowth...
> 
> I can see how in time the soil and pastures will recover and we can increase herd size gradually as conditions improve...


 I'd say right now or around the 1st of Sept. Unless you have a lot of bare spots the ryegrass will have difficulty competing with other grasses. You will need to graze real short or no-till or disk the ground a little in order to give it room to come up thru the other grasses or least that's been my experience. Last year what ryegrass I sowed didn't do anything, there was just too much competition from the other grasses, and IMO grazing real short in order to possibly get a good stand seems to be defeating the purpose.
If you get too good of a stand of ryegrass then you will have a lot of nothing come next summer. Seems to me its a trade off. JMHO


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> as we are now almost to the end of August, I realize that *we need more clarification on the 'how to' part of stockpiling*...
> 
> we are just now ending our second rotation of the year, in fact it was too long a time for some areas that we just sort of skipped over and bush hogged...and we are truly grateful for the rain and grass.....
> 
> so where does this leave us now?...do we just leave out half the pastures for the next three months?...which would mean a 6 week rotation two times before January over the half we are not setting aside???
> 
> should we bush hog behind the cows as we finish this last part of the second rotation?....then let the 'stockpiled' areas just grow until Jan? we are also waiting on our Marshall rye seed order and will broadcast where we can....however we do not have a drill and the grass has been so thick that I think some of the seed will not ever get down to the ground....not sure what to do about that....I suppose we could broadcast ahead of the cows and hope they will trample the seed in?
> 
> we should have new calves in October...so I want those mommas to have all they need to get those babies off to a good start....
> 
> thanks for all thoughts as we try to work this plan...or maybe just get the plan in place....


 IMO you should be in a state of stockpiling all the time. The term stockpiling has been used over the years by people who for the most part were doing continuous grazing. My Dad used to stockpile about 30 acres every year for years, but was continuous grazing every thing else. The 30 acres we stockpiled was either hayed or continuous grazed until Sept. then set aside or stockpiled for winter, some years it did ok and some years it didn't depending on the rainfall. Looking back now it was never really great unless fertilized heavily because it was abused all year then expected to blossom like a rose in the fall.
If you have long enough rotations and recovery times then there is no need to "stockpile" or set aside, because you are in a constant stockpiling mode. Think about it, if you can have a 100 day recovery period or more, you can go a whole year in less than 4 rotations. If you can do 120 day recovery you can make it one year in 3 rotations! Anything that gets to mature for you or weedy can be clipped during that recovery time anyway you like its up to you.
Think about it!


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## Gabriel

No offense to anyone, but it seems like some of y'all are taking the hard/expensive way. If a paddock is so good that seed won't make soil contact, it doesn't need seed! If a paddock is so sparse that it needs seed, it also needs organic matter. Depending on local hay prices, it may well be more efficient for you to buy hay, unroll it on the poor parts and voila - you added both seed and organic matter. Nothing, and I mean nothing(!), has done as much good for my pastures as that. 

Weeds. As I said a while back, I'm no longer sure I can recognize them. Ran my cattle through an area where there had been a compost pile and they stripped the forage that regrew in that spot. I have to call it forage, not weeds, because stuff that they wouldn't touch elsewhere got devoured in that spot. I still spot mow, but no longer spend much time worrying about weeds. Instead, I work to improve the nutrients.


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## biggkidd

Agmantoo,

Great thread here. I've read a great deal of this thread but not all of it in the last week. Just wonderful that you have been so kind helping all these folks. If you are up to it I've got a few questions for you. Others are of course welcome to chime in also. 

I am located a bit north of you but not to far about 35-40 miles north of southhill VA. I have a small place 36 acres we are carving out of timberland. I would like to copy what you are doing on a smaller scale. I have three acres just cleared. I have talked with one Co about doing some more timbering and plan to get several est. I would like to end up with about 15 acres of pasture here. I know thats not much but I do like my hardwoods too. (May also be able to buy some more land someday) The space just cleared is 400 foot wide and about that deep on one side running to 250 on the other. My property is roughly 1200 ft deep. So what I am thinking is keep a nice strait lane 400 ft x 1200 ft with another joining making a backwards letter L . Not sure yet how long the bottom leg of the L will be. Maybe another 400x400. This whole area from what is already cleared runs downhill to a seasonal creek that makes up my rear property line. Its not steep but is a fare slope that should drain well. The total elevation change is maybe 40-50 ft if that. 
Those are my thoughts as a complete novice. The sizes I gave do however come up to being a shade under 15 acres. So now for the questions. I am after your best guess I know this isn't a science (yet).

1) Would I have to have all the stumps removed or could I just cut as close as possible and seed around? Let them rot and fill the holes. These are mostly hardwoods so they are going to try and grow back. A few goats could handle that though if the cows don't. 

2) K31 and clover for forage? 

3) lots of lime? PH here seems to be around 6

4) Would this support 10 pairs calf cows and a bull. (not sure I want a bull I have two young daughters)

5) I was thinking of Dexters but not set on that. I would like this to be a money making venture. Along with supplying us with good grass fed beef.

The layout I think I've got figured from reading this thread. A driving lane down the center water in the middle area. Lets say my paddocks are 190 ft wide x the total length with poly braid across sized as needed. I am thinking if I set it up right I could start at one corner and go down one side back up the other. Making a nice long rotation. I also plan to include 20-50 or so feet of woods down either side but not the ends as the property ends.

You all please pick this to pieces and set me strait. Its so much easier to correct mistakes before construction than during or after. 

Thank You

Larry 
A World Away
off grid since 08


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## agmantoo

biggkidd said:


> Agmantoo,
> 
> Great thread here. I've read a great deal of this thread but not all of it in the last week. Just wonderful that you have been so kind helping all these folks. If you are up to it I've got a few questions for you. Others are of course welcome to chime in also.
> *Thanks for the kind words!*
> I am located a bit north of you but not to far about 35-40 miles north of southhill VA. I have a small place 36 acres we are carving out of timberland. I would like to copy what you are doing on a smaller scale. I have three acres just cleared. I have talked with one Co about doing some more timbering and plan to get several est. I would like to end up with about 15 acres of pasture here. I know thats not much but I do like my hardwoods too. (May also be able to buy some more land someday) The space just cleared is 400 foot wide and about that deep on one side running to 250 on the other. My property is roughly 1200 ft deep. So what I am thinking is keep a nice strait lane 400 ft x 1200 ft with another joining making a backwards letter L . Not sure yet how long the bottom leg of the L will be. Maybe another 400x400. This whole area from what is already cleared runs downhill to a seasonal creek that makes up my rear property line. Its not steep but is a fare slope that should drain well. The total elevation change is maybe 40-50 ft if that.
> *From what I gather from your description I do not know why your proposed layout would not work*
> Those are my thoughts as a complete novice. The sizes I gave do however come up to being a shade under 15 acres. So now for the questions. I am after your best guess I know this isn't a science (yet).
> 
> 1) Would I have to have all the stumps removed or could I just cut as close as possible and seed around? Let them rot and fill the holes. These are mostly hardwoods so they are going to try and grow back. A few goats could handle that though if the cows don't.
> *Having the stumps removed will make the paddocks more productive quicker. I would take the income from the timber sale and hire by the hour someone with a large track hoe to lift the stumps out and make a windrow that will help prevent erosion. Avoid paying taxes on the timber income and spending it on the farm makes sense to me. Doing so will also increase the value of your holdings. You will make the money back off the calves and make it sooner. *
> 
> 2) K31 and clover for forage? *Yes, plus annual ryegrass for more grazing in the late fall and early spring.*
> 
> 3) lots of lime? PH here seems to be around 6
> *Do a soil sample, get what your need and no more*
> 
> 4) Would this support 10 pairs calf cows and a bull. (not sure I want a bull I have two young daughters)
> *Provided you get the fertility and the PH where it should be I would think it would be achievable. You can justify the bull and you should be able to get a bull that is docile. *
> 5) I was thinking of Dexters but not set on that. I would like this to be a money making venture. Along with supplying us with good grass fed beef.
> *I like helping those that are profit minded. The motivation is seemingly more apparent. I may be biased but I had rather see you go with commercial beef animal and preferably black. The color bonus is a plus. A 10 cents per pound advantage is like raising an extra calf on 10 head. *
> The layout I think I've got figured from reading this thread. A driving lane down the center water in the middle area. Lets say my paddocks are 190 ft wide x the total length with poly braid across sized as needed. I am thinking if I set it up right I could start at one corner and go down one side back up the other. Making a nice long rotation. I also plan to include 20-50 or so feet of woods down either side but not the ends as the property ends.
> 
> You all please pick this to pieces and set me strait. Its so much easier to correct mistakes before construction than during or after.
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Larry
> A World Away
> off grid since 08


I am excited for you. Looks as if you have a plan that will reward you and get you underway.


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## biggkidd

Thanks Agman,

I am trying to get several est. on the timber the one I already talked with didn't think that the timber would cover getting the stumps up. I am spent out for this year with what I paid to get the stumps out of the three acres just done. I'll post updates as I have them. 

Thanks 
Larry
A World Away


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## randyandmegs

I am in the same boat this point. The cost of getting the stumps out is going to farm exceed the money I will make from the timber. We are not completely clear cutting so that does make a difference to me. I'm looking at (a hardly used) SG-36 model stump grinder in the link below. What do yall think?
http://www.worksaver.com/product/stumpgrinder.html


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

If this stump grinder is at a dealer I would insist a trial use in my purchase. I do this with any implement I buy. There have been occasions to where I returned the item. Have you inquired as to the upkeep cost associated with the use of the grinder? IMO the replacement tips are expensive. You do realize this s going to be a very slow process? Are you going to be able to hold the tractor in position on your hillsides? I am having trouble trying to determine why marketed timber did not bring enough money to pay for the clearing. Christmas tree growers in Ashe county are able to trade the existing trees to loggers in exchange for prepping the land for planting. You do know that I am a timber producer don't you? Even on trash land if I have enough acreage I can get some land prep in exchange for the biomass. Myself, I would find someone with a very large track hoe and let him extract the stumps and windrow them. This should cost no more than $200 per acre. Let him do this between jobs as fill in work. I know this may sound too low but it will cover the operating cost of the machine and pay his operator. Getting enough work to make the machine payments, cover the fuel and maintenance and keep and employee earning is better than the machine and operator idle.


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## gwithrow

when I had a track hoe guy come in last winter to work on stumps and the stupid privet gone wild, he charged way way more than 200 an acre...it was many hours of steady work and even then he didn't get them all...it is a bush hoggers nightmare and now it is a major blackberry jungle....still too many stumps to bush hog, and now we can't even see them..however the stump grinder man just shook his head and said it wouldn't be worth the time and wear and tear on his equipment to take out all the stumps....the best was to find some one to cut them level with the ground....and spray them to keep them from sprouting...I wish I had the answers on this one, I would so love to be able to just run that tractor right in there and cut the thorns and bad weeds...


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> when I had a track hoe guy come in last winter to work on stumps and the stupid privet gone wild, he charged way way more than 200 an acre...it was many hours of steady work and even then he didn't get them all...it is a bush hoggers nightmare and now it is a major blackberry jungle....still too many stumps to bush hog, and now we can't even see them..however the stump grinder man just shook his head and said it wouldn't be worth the time and wear and tear on his equipment to take out all the stumps*....the best was to find some one to cut them level with the ground....and spray them to keep them from sprouting...*I wish I had the answers on this one, I would so love to be able to just run that tractor right in there and cut the thorns and bad weeds...


 That would be what I would do and worry about them later or never.


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## Gabriel

Spend a little extra on fencing and throw some goats in there. They'll clean it up with a smile on their face and pay you to do it.


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## gwithrow

yes, goats are the answer...I need about 30 for a month or two...the area is maybe 4 acres or a little more...then we could see the stumps again...and then I need a handyman....and if you know where to get one of those I would be thrilled...but I do think I will look into goats...I just do not want them long term...just for a while to eat their favorite things...the fencing is in place...field fence with a hot wire on the inside already...

where do I get goats? do they need a shelter? or a dog to protect them? I am good with cows...don't know much about goats...


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## biggkidd

Check craigs list for goats. You can also ask oldtimers in your area where you might find some. Hang out at the local gas station that sells breakfast early to meet the right kind of folks. You may even find someone who has more goats than space who would be thrilled to have their goats over for a visit. 

Yep here they want more than $2000 an acre to grub stumps with a track hoe. The timber value isn't even close on hardwoods unless you have a mature stand of grade A trees. The guy I had in had a track loader cost $1900. for three acres and left about 15-20% of the stumps. He was working by the hour and I just couldn't afford anymore. He also took a 15 min break for every 45 min he worked. I got a bit hot under the collar about that. After talking with others in the business here I probably got a pretty good deal for this area. Some of them get better than $2500 an acre plus pick up and delivery...

As much as I would like to get the stumps out I just don't think I'll be able to. Time will tell. I am going to seed the area that's just been cleared now. My thoughts at this time are first to get the rest timbered. Second get grass / forage growing next get a fence around the entire area I MAY end up using. Plus a little more. Get a few head and a few goats and get started. I have a small 4x4 tractor with a front end loader and a backhoe. Work on the stumps as I can and or hire someone after I start having the farm support itself. I don't know that this is a good idea and its not a final plan but some progress will get made this way. Until a better plan finds me or I play and win the lotto. 

Larry 
A World Away

Add: My place has poor access as I am 2 miles from a paved road down a old logging road with a poor bridge over a creek.


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## agmantoo

The key to getting the stumps under control is to get them extracted and left in a windrow. After extraction handle the stumps yourself or leave them in the windrow. A tractor with box scrape can fill the smaller holes or a large tractor and a log chain can drag the larger stumps. If the stumps are too big for this just leave them alone until the Winter freeze will break the dirt loose to where you can burn the near bare stumps. Just a few moves and burnings will get the windrows gone. An advantage of this method is that the topsoil remains where you need it. What drives the cost up is having the area prepared for ready to use and having it done when it suits the time frame of the property owner. I can get a large Cat excavator or a D8 dozer with a skilled operator for $125/hour when the equipment is between jobs. I often trade my doing electrical repair on machinery for earth work or favors. I do a fair amount of bartering which I enjoy.


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## biggkidd

Agman,

I've got a long windrow of stumps to deal with now. Good tip about winter freeze to get the dirt off. I didn't know that one. Thanks. I spent several hours today trying to clean up with the tractor & box blade. Pulling all the roots and junk to the stumps piling it up for burning. About two solid weeks should have it done. Which means that I might get it done by first of the year. lol 

You know what a sub soiler is? If so do you think if I made a real heavy one and sharpened the front edge I could cut through the root ball around the stumps and then pull them out? The more I am able to do myself the better. I built a good heavy root rake that goes on the tractor that works wonders. I need to add a set of ski's to keep it from going so deep though. It'll pull down till the cross bar where the tines mount is flush on the ground and front tires are in the air.

It must be nice to have a trade that you can barter with getting things you need done. I need a skill like that. 
Back to cows though what are some smaller breeds that you would recommend for a small farm? One that wants to produce a good quality product and put good beef on the table? 

Again thanks!

Larry
A World Away
Off grid since 08

Larry


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## agmantoo

biggkidd said:


> Agman,
> 
> I've got a long windrow of stumps to deal with now. Good tip about winter freeze to get the dirt off. I didn't know that one. Thanks. I spent several hours today trying to clean up with the tractor & box blade. Pulling all the roots and junk to the stumps piling it up for burning. About two solid weeks should have it done. Which means that I might get it done by first of the year. lolYou know what a sub soiler is? *I certainly do! I have a small single shank and a too large one that I no longer have a tractor that can handle it. *If so do you think if I made a real heavy one and sharpened the front edge I could cut through the root ball around the stumps and then pull them out? *That will not work if the trees have any size to them * The more I am able to do myself the better. I built a good heavy root rake that goes on the tractor that works wonders.* I also have a homemade root rake. Like yours mine also works great. I can manipulate the lift lever until I get a partial load of roots and branches and I then just let my root rake float. the debris will prevent the teeth from going too deep.*I need to add a set of ski's to keep it from going so deep though. It'll pull down till the cross bar where the tines mount is flush on the ground and front tires are in the air.
> 
> It must be nice to have a trade that you can barter with getting things you need done. I need a skill like that.
> Back to cows though what are some smaller breeds that you would recommend for a small farm? One that wants to produce a good quality product and put good beef on the table? *Small frame commercial Angus, frame 3 to frame 4. Do not try to reinvent a super breed.
> *
> Again thanks!
> 
> Larry
> A World Away
> Off grid since 08
> 
> Larry


Sorry for not having an answer regarding the stump removal. I am one of those people that believes you can eat an elephant one mouthful at a time. I would like to see you get started in the cattle business and use the income to clean up some land each year. Eventually you would have what you wanted cleared, cleared. After I got into rotational grazing to the point I was netting some decent income I used that income to purchase some earth moving machinery. I learned from doing my own work the advantages of not depending on others. I also learned that most folks have little imagination and I have cleaned up a lot of acres that I resold after improving for a significant profit enabling me to purchase additional land. I bought some cheap unimproved acres and the seller had his coffee shop buddies to laugh at me for buying the junk land. Later when I sold the acres for ~5 times what I paid for it he no longer associated with me. I tell you this not to boast but to plant an idea.


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## Ironbutt

What I did I had 4 acres of 25 year old yellow pine that I had clear cut. Made just enough off the cutting to have the stumps jerked out with a track hoe at $125 a hour , I found a guy who was between jobs. the four acres cost $3,125.00 . The I hired one of those forestry machines to come in and grind up and level everything he charged me $1500.00 to do the four acres. He found 5 stumps that the track hole guy missed and ground them down 6 inches. I took my dozer and leveled & moved some soil here & their and started burning stumps. This was in feb. 2013 today I am grazing that property planted in ranchero bermuda & clover. Soil sample came back in may , called for 300 lbs to acre, limed 150 lbs to acre in june, the other half will be spread in feb. The last picture shows the clear cut in the back ground with the grass young and two piles not yet burned.


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## agmantoo

Ironbutt

From my calculation you converted 4 acres to beef production for a little more than $1400/acre. That 4 acres using rotational grazing and my production costs along with my expenses plus current cattle prices I expect you to recover the investment within 3 plus years. Your sharing this project supports what I am promoting to those that want to get into the cattle business but have land that is not producing forage. Each year that the land is not producing is forfeiting future profit that could be realized if it were feeding animals now. I view your venture to be a sound investment and one that you will want to expand.


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## biggkidd

agmantoo said:


> Sorry for not having an answer regarding the stump removal. I am one of those people that believes you can eat an elephant one mouthful at a time. I would like to see you get started in the cattle business and use the income to clean up some land each year. Eventually you would have what you wanted cleared, cleared. After I got into rotational grazing to the point I was netting some decent income I used that income to purchase some earth moving machinery. I learned from doing my own work the advantages of not depending on others. I also learned that most folks have little imagination and I have cleaned up a lot of acres that I resold after improving for a significant profit enabling me to purchase additional land. I bought some cheap unimproved acres and the seller had his coffee shop buddies to laugh at me for buying the junk land. Later when I sold the acres for ~5 times what I paid for it he no longer associated with me. I tell you this not to boast but to plant an idea.


Agmantoo,
I think you may also be a mind reader. There are two more small properties by mine that will likely go for sale in the next few years. If I can get on the right track I should be in a pretty good position to buy them right. Long as they don't come up for sale at the same time anyhow. One good thing for me is the access here is poor and not many want to deal with two miles of old logging trail. I've got word out that I am looking to have some more area timbered. The one guy who is currently working around the corner doesn't seem interested if it means he has to remove the stumps. So I am currently looking for others. I need to have some income from this in order to pay for fencing etc. So what I may end up doing is having a bit more (5ac) timbered to cover those costs. That would still leave a nice little bit that hasn't been touched. While putting the 15 ac to work. Timing needs to work in my favor for all of this to come together. 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge its a big help.

Larry
A World Away'


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## Ironbutt

My herd is the best it has looked in 40 years, my worm load has been cut in half, I purchase half the amount of hay I once purchased and even with a reduced herd now I make even more profit, My plans are to continue to bring property into production. 
The property I had cleared had been fenced years ago and the cows had ate most of the underbrush away and their was some grass in places. But with the new grazing plan I had I was making more from beef than any future profit from timber. My forester told me that it was to the point that loggers wouldn't want to continue logging timber that was 25 acres or less to be profitable since costs were rising so fast. 
The photo's are from a small tract that will never see a plow so even with the few stumps remaining it doesn't matter as they are covered with a foot of dirt from the forestry mower. I had advertised on craigslist looking for stump removal & the forestry mower so I had took bids from the ones who came out and got some interesting estimates. 
This is a photo of that property the middle of June.


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## gwithrow

I have a ton of the white pig tail posts, they work fine and are far superior to the plastic step in posts...however.....I just received an order of some of the yellow topped Parmak posts....they are superior all the way around...I like the sharpened ends and they are a heavier gauge metal and I like the yellow...which may not matter at all....I will be ordering more of these as our needs warrant...if anyone finds a 'deal', please advise all of us here...


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## biggkidd

Ironbutt said:


> My herd is the best it has looked in 40 years, my worm load has been cut in half, I purchase half the amount of hay I once purchased and even with a reduced herd now I make even more profit, My plans are to continue to bring property into production.
> The property I had cleared had been fenced years ago and the cows had ate most of the underbrush away and their was some grass in places. But wit
> 
> Man that looks great! Way to go. I'm headed down the same road now. Got a guy coming to look at my timber tomorrow. We will see what he has to say. I would like to have the same person who timbers do the land clearing so no money changes hands. Unless of course theres some left I can put toward fencing etc.
> 
> Where you had pines I have mixed hardwoods. I'll miss my trees but in todays economy we all have to find more ways to make ends meet.
> 
> So how many acres are you running cattle on and how many cattle?
> 
> Thanks
> Larry
> A World Away


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## biggkidd

Had the timber guy out yesterday. He gave me an est of 1000 an acre for 20 acres. Thats just enough to pay for clearing I think. More area than I wanted to get cut, but with timber companies getting like they are about doing small acreage. Have a friend, neighbor who was in timber until he retired who is going to look it over to make sure I get a fair shake. So the first steps are in motion to becoming a ranch / farm. I remember reading about the little ten cow spreads in old westerns. I guess thats what we'll be here in another couple years. This is better than just letting the land sit. If I have the stumps gotten up on about 15 ac with the three I just had done that will give almost 20 acres of pasture. That should just about leave enough $$$$ for fencing, and seed. Then I'll have 12-18 months to come up with the cash for cows. I WILL NOT go into DEBT to do this. From what I have heard / seen thats when all the big trouble starts. 

Anything I have missed? Looking for you guys to keep me strait here. I can't afford any mistakes in this game the stakes are to high...

The biggest problem I see at this point is I will only be able to start with a couple 2-3 bred cows or three in ones. So I'll have a slow haul building up my herd. 

Please point out anything I missed, forgot, just plain don't know (that covers a lot of ground).

Thanks

Larry 
A World Away


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## Gabriel

May I humbly suggest, again, not having it cleared immediately. If you can't afford any mistakes, and I'm in the same boat, remember this mantra: cash flow, cash flow, cash flow. Don't force the land to fit your preconceived notion of what it should be doing, do what it does best. Fit the project (animals) to what the land is already doing well. In 2-3 years after trying something like goats and pigs, the stumps should have decayed somewhat and if you decide then to have them cleared, it will go faster which will save you money. 

Don't worry, I won't harp on this again.  Whatever you decide to do, I wish you luck in that endeavor.


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## agmantoo

biggkidd

When I started I had very minimal experience with cattle. I also had made very little profit farming though I tried several ventures over time. With this as a background I was cautious with my move into the feeder calf business. To get started with the least upfront expense I bought heifer feeder calves at market that were preconditioned to go directly to a feedlot. My pasture land was converted row crop land and I was in the process of getting the land into grass production. This had me growing 500 lb heifers into cows and getting grass established at the same time. Initially I did conventional grazing and used hay. The results were the same as I had experienced with the earlier farming ventures, lots of input costs, high risks and little profit. I decided to either get out of this rut or get out of farming. I started teaching myself how to do rotational grazing and testing to see if I had to have the expenses I was incurring. Somewhat to my surprise I found out that my input costs dropped significantly and the animals did not die or become culls at the sale barn. The reason that I am sharing this with you is I strongly recommend that instead of you buying just a few cows to consider buying as many heifers as you can feed and muster money to buy. The risk will be minimal as you can sell grown heifers or at 15 months age breed them enabling you to sell pregnant heifers to recapture your investment if you had to. IMO, you need to get into production quickly and you need enough calves to generate adequate profit to go forth with the enterprise. Even if you have to borrow some money for the heifer purchase I see it as an investment, one with minimal risks. The first calves you market should pay for the initial startup animals and you will still have the cows that are marketable in an emergency. My initial 30 heifers have become a 100 cow herd with an annual 85 plus feeder calf harvest. Expansion is not possible where I now have the animals as I am using all the available land there.


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## ramiller5675

I don't know anything about timber or managing woodlands, but it seems odd to me that if I had all the trees cut down, I might make just enough money to pay someone to remove the stumps so that I could hopefully turn it all into a pasture.

I've cleared areas of big cedar trees (small areas up to a couple of acres or so) by using a chainsaw to cut them down, and letting them rot in place for about a year. After about a year, I can push them all into piles with a bulldozer, and either leave them to rot or burn them. 

Usually if there isn't a bunch of erosion under the cedars, there is enough of a native grass seed bank in the soil so that I can get a decent stand of grass. The native grasses I'm dealing with don't need to be limed or clipped so it doesn't matter if it takes a long time for the stumps to rot away.

I don't see why you wouldn't sell the timber, leave the stumps and burn any debris, apply some herbicide if you have a sprouting problem, wait for your native grasses to start growing, use all the money from the timber sale to buy cattle instead of seed and stump clearing, and then start grazing cattle in the area. 

Of course, like I said before, I don't know anything about timber and it might be that none of that is possible.


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## biggkidd

Thank you all for your inputs. I will give some more thought to this. But at any rate I am going to get at least half of the area cleared of stumps. 

The idea of going with more heifers instead of less cows and breading acceptable ones sounds pretty good. That was the first thought I had then second thought was that I could get 2-3 bred cows come spring and run the area I am seeding now. By the time I have forage growing on the rest will mean waiting another year. Wonder how many heifers I could start with on just 3 acres. Have to remember I will have more pasture with in a year. 

I know I want to put the money from the timber sale into improving the land so as not to pay taxes on it. Which means getting this all done fast until the cash runs out. Or is this wrong?

I will not go into debt to do this. If it fails then it was just poorly spent money, and I wont owe anyone. I'll also have nice cleared pasture, and not a bunch of mostly scrub hardwoods. Hardwoods are nice but take longer than my lifetime to grow to maturity. But when it succeeds then it was a good investment. :goodjob:


Thanks 
Larry
A World Away


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## biggkidd

Got another question for you guys. I'm looking at spending 10-15,000 to get stumps up after the timbering is done. When faced with similar situations in the past I usually buy tools / equipment and do the job myself. Then have the ___________ for future use. Question is this crazy? If not what would be the best piece of equ. to buy? Track loader or mini excavator or ? I would like to keep $$ down as much as possible. Have to keep it down to what clearing would cost. I have worked on most things but never one of those. Basic mechanics I would think just more expensive and heavier. I was school trained in diesel 20+ years ago. Didn't stick with it long to greasy / nasty.

Thanks 
Larry
A World Away


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## Awnry Abe

Larry, 

Buying vs. renting vs. subcontracting is always something I wrestle with when presented with an equipment need. One thing I won't do anymore is buying without using first. Renting is valuable for that. But I don't think you are crazy for DIY and owning the equipment for future use.


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## agmantoo

A track hoe (excavator) is the most useful single piece lowest cost to own and operate machine ever designed to do multiple earth related tasks. A track hoe and a worn tandem axle dump truck can accomplish anything associated with earth work on a farm. Personally, I would never have a mini however. Get a full size machine. I have a Cat 312 BLX that I will be using later this week to aid in building a fence on a property line and install culvert in a small stream. The machine has a thumb that I will use to remove limbs that are hanging low on my side of the property line. I built a pond last year with the machine. Previously I thought that a track loader would have been ideal but I have since found out that I was wrong. The track loader was expensive to own, requiring repairs and more fuel while not being as flexible. If you want to visit, I will let you run the track hoe to get an idea of how it is to operate.


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## biggkidd

Thanks Abe. Thats always the way I have looked at things.



agmantoo said:


> A track hoe (excavator) is the most useful single piece lowest cost to own and operate machine ever designed to do multiple earth related tasks. A track hoe and a worn tandem axle dump truck can accomplish anything associated with earth work on a farm. Personally, I would never have a mini however. Get a full size machine. I have a Cat 312 BLX that I will be using later this week to aid in building a fence on a property line and install culvert in a small stream. The machine has a thumb that I will use to remove limbs that are hanging low on my side of the property line. I built a pond last year with the machine. Previously I thought that a track loader would have been ideal but I have since found out that I was wrong. The track loader was expensive to own, requiring repairs and more fuel while not being as flexible. If you want to visit, I will let you run the track hoe to get an idea of how it is to operate.


That sounds good but I couldn't get away except on a weekend though. Would that work for you? I am the only one who works here full time so its hard to justify taking time off. I left my # when I returned your pm if you would like to call and set something up.

Thanks 

Larry
A World Away


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## Go for 300

Well I have been reading since I last posted, but haven't taken the time to post. My first rotation with the yearlings went well, about to start a modified version in the next day or two through the "system". I say modified because I am now laid up for 6-8 weeks after an emergency back surgery. Fortuneately I have some very willing help from neighbors and my dad as much as he is able.

I did go ahead and get an order of par mak pigtails from Jeffers online. They said free shipping, but I had to pay a "handling" charge. They are much stouter than the plastic step in posts, and now the calves are trained to electric, the single wire will work awesome. My nine year old son, the oldest, is capable of setting up un moving the cattle, s that is going to be a huge blessing through this.

Just wanted to say hello and again thanks for the insight provided on this thread. Heck, I might just go back and read it again since I have lots of down time now!


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## agmantoo

biggkidd

*That sounds good but I couldn't get away except on a weekend though. Would that work for you? I am the only one who works here full time so its hard to justify taking time off. I left my # when I returned your pm if you would like to call and set something up.*

The PM did not arrive. Pls resend. I am very obligated the balance of this month. Oct would also be better weatherwise as it is hot and very dry here currently.


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## biggkidd

That sounds good. Actually works better for me. I sent my number again today.

Thanks

Larry 
A World Away


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## biggkidd

agmantoo said:


> My cattle manage to shift whatever I have used to date away from the waterer. I find stones far larger (think baseball size) than I ever imagined that they would move as much as 100 feet from where I put them initially. I also used the geotextile fabric. I am now trying to find something to use as a curbing to hold the stone in place. If I could locate a very thick heavy mat made from something like recycled heavy truck tires I would consider that also.


I know this is from way back. But if you never fixed this issue you might try old truck bed mats laced or rivited together. They are made of strong thick rubber 3/8" in some cases. I use several for stuff around here. For a edge you could roll it around a piece of pipe and rivit back to itself. 

Just a thought.

Larry 
A World Away


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## WJMartin

We finally got some rain, of course it had to come down fast and hard, 2.5 inches, and are suppose to get some more tonight. It has saved our pastures for the fall, we were dry and dusty. All 8 head look really good going into fall, three preg expecting early spring calves. 

Had fun moving them from a neighbor's place 1/2 mile away to an acreage 1/4 mile away, used new trailer so only had to make one trip, but we have been riding horse up on this acreage and forgot to close back gate. Those dang cattle got off the trailer and started running straight for the gate and ran all the way to the house! lol Let them rest a bit, got a bucket of cubes and they followed me back up the hill. Those bad girls will do anything for an extra cube.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

Glad you got everything under control. Rain in time of need is wonderful. It is dry here now and I hope we receive rain soon. I need the water to promote growth of my Winter feed over the need two months. You mention cubes and I suppose these are what is referred to as range cubes. I have at times needed or thought that I needed such cubes during drought periods but to my awareness these cubes are not even sold where I live. If time permits would you share how you use the cubes and the amounts given along with the prices and quantities they are usually purchased? How are the cubes stored and do they spoil if the humidity is high? Are there any complications associated with feeding them? Is there any question I should have asked and didn't? Thanks.


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## ramiller5675

agmantoo said:


> ...I have at times needed or thought that I needed such cubes during drought periods but to my awareness these cubes are not even sold where I live. If time permits would you share how you use the cubes and the amounts given along with the prices and quantities they are usually purchased? How are the cubes stored and do they spoil if the humidity is high? Are there any complications associated with feeding them? Is there any question I should have asked and didn't? Thanks.



Locally you can get cubes with 20% or 38% protein, it's sold in either 50 lb bags or bulk (fill up the feeder on the back of your truck, a grain truck, a trailer, etc.), and last winter I think a 20% bag cost about $9.50 and a 38% bag was about $12.50. If you buy in bulk you save a little but not a lot.

I would usually buy about 30 bags or so at a time when I'm feeding cubes, and just store them on a pallet in the barn. I don't know if they would spoil in high humidity, or if long-term storage is possible.

I usually fed about 2-3 lb. per head (the 20% bag recommends between 2-6 lb. per cow) when I was grazing something like dormant native pasture or feeding low-quality hay or straw. 

The way I understand it, cubes aren't really a substitute for forage, they stimulate the cow's appetite so they will be more likely to eat lower quality forage and/or provide a little protein so they don't lose condition eating that lower quality stuff.

In a drought, cubes don't really help if there isn't enough grass to eat.

Personally, I've always hated feeding cubes, it seems like a lot of money for little return, the cattle seem to get stressed out waiting by the gate to be fed, I've came the closest I've ever came to getting seriously hurt while feeding cubes, etc. and so I've decided to stop feeding any cubes this winter.

I'd much rather feed $25 worth of hay than $25 worth of cubes.


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## Gabriel

If you read the ingredients, cubes do have protein but they also have a lot of energy, usually in the form of molasses. That is what stimulates the rumen microbes which do the digesting. What I learned from Mark Bader is to check the pH of the cattle, if it's acid give protein, if it's alkaline give energy. You want it to be 7. 

Cubes are an expensive way to give energy, which is what they are, predominantly. If you're wanting a way to supplement with additional feed, keep looking, cubes aren't it...


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## Allen W

agmantoo 

Cubes or range cubes like the popular 20% cube are a basically grain product in cube form, the label will read grain product, plant protein product, etc. You can still find some cotton seed cake cubes (oil meal) but it takes some looking. If you have a local feed mill you could have some grain and protein meal mixed and be better off, other then needing to feed in bunks. 

Cattle cubes are cheap hired help when you need to catch some uncooperative cattle.

ramiller 

You could do like my old neighbor used to, lay the sack across your lap and feed out the pick up door.


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## SCRancher

Agman, There is a bulk distributor in Lancaster, SC that has corn/cotton seed mixture or it was distillers leftovers, can't remember exactly, they will load your vehicle or if you buy a large enough bulk will ship to you in a tractor-trailer load. 3 or 4 years ago when I ran out of hay in the winter and couldn't find any more I fed my cattle this for about a month, at the time it was 190 per ton in the qty I was buying which was about a ton at a time as that was all my pickup would hold. I just drove under their drop auger and they filled her up.

I will figure out the name if you are interested in investigating them.


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## WJMartin

Cattle cubes are very common around here as a winter supplement. I store all my bag feed in an old freezer and I don't have any problem with mold or mice ect. I have a very small herd and several feed stores close by so I don't bother with bulk feed, I did several times but it actually cost me more because I could only store 300 lbs. at a time. Right now price is $10/50lbs. for 20% protein. I haven't heard of any problems associated with feeding cubes, my dad fed cubes 60 years ago so it's a common practice around here. It is grain based, being in a cube form you can pour out on the ground, no feeders needed, I believe this is the biggest reason cubes are popular. 

Since I walk my girls about 1/4 mile to different pastures it's nice that they will follow me anywhere with the shake of a feed bucket and the promise of cubes. Even my horses will do anything for a cube treat.

My cousin has a large herd and feeds them cubes all winter, he has a large bin set up on a one ton and just drives by the troughs and pours it in.

I haven't had any issues while feeding but I keep a close eye on the horns and keep my personal space, especially with the 2yr.old steer who is headed to freezer camp soon. However, my DH, very inexperienced with animals, was "helping" me load the cattle and led them into the catching pen with cubes and backed into a corner, I about had a fit and had to go rescue him. He had no idea of the danger he was in, even with my small Dexters.

I feed cubes during the winter, about 1 - 2lbs. per animal, more if the weather is really bad or I'll feed extra to a new mom. Everyone I know fed cubes the last two winters when hay quality was low due to drought. Hay is better quality this year but I will still feed some just because I like that time spent with my girls.

I'm expecting to reduce my hay needs a lot this year since we've had good rains and a neighbor asked me to bring my herd up to his place for a month, I've been able to stockpile for the first time ever. I'm hoping that I don't have to start feeding hay until Dec. and if we get rain and the rye grass I let go to seed will sprout and the creek don't rise and God is willing I'll have rye grass at some point.


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## WJMartin

Finally took a walk about out in the north pastures this weekend, my son has mowed a path right down the middle of a field to his deer stand, %&*#, but it made it easy
 to walk. Since we had 2.5 inches of rain last week the grasses have grown, it feels almost creepy walking through 6 ft. high grasses but I love having the tall prairie grass. Probably not the best stockpiling practice and I'll certainly have to mow it down after a hard freeze because of fire danger but for now I'll play "King of the Jungle" with the grands.

After three years of throwing out several hundred pounds of fescue seeds I finally found a small stand of fescue, under some trees where we had cleared cedars for fence, right next to a huge pile of deer, um, stuff.


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## Allen W

WJ

Why mow? Feed them cows some protein and they will eat a lot of that grass this fall and winter.


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## Lively Creek

I am a newbie to the site and am not sure if this is the place to post this question. I am looking for someone who has had experience using the AimVet-L system of administering horn fly insecticide via a paintball type gun. 
Thanks,
Lively Creek Farms


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## Gabriel

This is not the correct thread. Simply start a new thread for your question, the box that says "new thread" is on the left, above all the thread titles. Good luck.


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## WJMartin

Allen W, I will rotate the cattle through all the fields, in my reading on different forages, most of them will retain a good % of protein for a month after a freeze so I won't be mowing until sometime in Dec. BUT, grass fires are a real threat around here and tall dead standing grass is just too dangerous. We had our field set on fire by kids with Roman candles one year. Someone's car broke down and he parked on our side of the road, caught the grass on fire, his car on fire, my field on fire. 

So, I'll mow and leave it to help build top soil and hope some rye comes up.


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## joshf

biggkidd said:


> Thank you all for your inputs. I will give some more thought to this. But at any rate I am going to get at least half of the area cleared of stumps.
> 
> The idea of going with more heifers instead of less cows and breading acceptable ones sounds pretty good. That was the first thought I had then second thought was that I could get 2-3 bred cows come spring and run the area I am seeding now. By the time I have forage growing on the rest will mean waiting another year. Wonder how many heifers I could start with on just 3 acres. Have to remember I will have more pasture with in a year.
> 
> I know I want to put the money from the timber sale into improving the land so as not to pay taxes on it. Which means getting this all done fast until the cash runs out. Or is this wrong?
> 
> I will not go into debt to do this. If it fails then it was just poorly spent money, and I wont owe anyone. I'll also have nice cleared pasture, and not a bunch of mostly scrub hardwoods. Hardwoods are nice but take longer than my lifetime to grow to maturity. But when it succeeds then it was a good investment. :goodjob:
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Larry
> A World Away


I am admittedly very ignorant on the subject. But selling the timber just to pay for the removal of the stumps sounds counterintuitive at best. Have you considered clearing the land yourself on a small scale? It would seem that would be more profitable then your current plan. You could purchase a bandsaw mill and sell lumber. Which would be more profitable than selling the trees wholesale. This would also allow you to cut selectively so as to save trees that may be profitable in your golden years,or your children's golden years.

Also how serious an issue are stumps for a pasture. I would hypothesize that if left tall so as to be readily visible cattle could maneuver around them quite safely. They may even enjoy the scratching posts.

Again I don't know much about the subject, but the thought of losing all the value of your trees to pay for land clearing just does not seem cost effective. Either way I hope it works out for you.


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## Farmerboy16

Hi all. I would like some advice here. I have been reading this great thread on and off for the past 9 months. 

My situation is this- I only have 5 acres, 3 of it is pasture, but just seeded it. I have 1 milk cow, 3 heifer, 2 steers, and 2 goats, and I have been using the neighbor's 20 acres land north of me for 5 years, but it got sold a few days ago, so I asked the neighbor south of me, if I can use his 10 acre field. He said yes. He had kept it mowed once in a while, had it baled a few years back, but the last few years, he only mowed a few parts. There is a lot of grass, and I am wondering how long into the winter can they graze before I have to start giving them hay? I am trying to stretch the hay as much as possible. I also feed them fodder. 

Here is a picture of the south neighbor's field with my cows in the temp fencing.


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## ycanchu2

Farmerboy16 said:


> Hi all. I would like some advice here. I have been reading this great thread on and off for the past 9 months.
> 
> My situation is this- I only have 5 acres, 3 of it is pasture, but just seeded it. I have 1 milk cow, 3 heifer, 2 steers, and 2 goats, and I have been using the neighbor's 20 acres land north of me for 5 years, but it got sold a few days ago, so I asked the neighbor south of me, if I can use his 10 acre field. He said yes. He had kept it mowed once in a while, had it baled a few years back, but the last few years, he only mowed a few parts. There is a lot of grass, and I am wondering how long into the winter can they graze before I have to start giving them hay? I am trying to stretch the hay as much as possible. I also feed them fodder.
> 
> Here is a picture of the south neighbor's field with my cows in the temp fencing.


 Here is what I would do. You want to let what you have seeded to grow all the way till spring flush next year if possible ungrazed. Take the ten acres and divide it by 6 months which is how long you have roughly until new spring growth. So roughly speaking you have an allotment of 1.5 ac per month which equals 65,340sq.ft.(43,560x1.5). Then divide 65,340 sq. ft. by 30 days and you get 2,178 sq. ft. a day. I would round it off to abut 2000 sq.ft a day, easier to figure. If the grass is good at all it should be plenty for 6 hd of cattle and 2 goats for one day. Try it and see, what they eat in the next month or two will probably grow back and be ready if you need it in the spring. If they leave some in the daily allotment that's ok don't make them eat it.....it will recover quicker.


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## Farmerboy16

ycanchu2 said:


> Here is what I would do. You want to let what you have seeded to grow all the way till spring flush next year if possible ungrazed. Take the ten acres and divide it by 6 months which is how long you have roughly until new spring growth. So roughly speaking you have an allotment of 1.5 ac per month which equals 65,340sq.ft.(43,560x1.5). Then divide 65,340 sq. ft. by 30 days and you get 2,178 sq. ft. a day. I would round it off to abut 2000 sq.ft a day, easier to figure. If the grass is good at all it should be plenty for 6 hd of cattle and 2 goats for one day. Try it and see, what they eat in the next month or two will probably grow back and be ready if you need it in the spring. If they leave some in the daily allotment that's ok don't make them eat it.....it will recover quicker.


Thanks for the advice! I will like to try it.

Forgot to mention that I am in West Michigan, we get a bit of snow in November and December, then a early January thaw, then real winter hits us in mid January thru early March. That is If Michigan weather follows the rules for this coming winter. lol 
Also, the south neighbor have trails crisscrossing all over the field and he wants the trails open, so I got one pasture fenced inside the trails. I just connect the main fence to the temp fence to move the cows in and out, its connected by a plastic coated wire on the ground. Plus, I have a solar charger too, but I am using that for the 4 months old steers(Jersey boys) and my milk cow's 6 weeks old heifer calf(she is being weaned).

I do want to keep the animals off my pasture until spring when the plants have grown tall enough, that might not be until mid-May or so. Meanwhile, I can set up sections of fencing inside the trails as many as I can with the supplies I have. Having the cows access to water might be difficult, unless I lug them water everyday. It might be difficult for me to rotate them everyday with that set-up, but I will be doing the IRG in my pasture, and in my neighbor's field next year if he is happy with the way I have been doing on his land.


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## ATPFARM

Huge thanks to all the regular contributors to this thread.... it has reached 100 pages and 3000 posts.... the most detailed thread I've ever read....!
Special thanks to Agmantoo for countless hours of very technical and valuable cattle management expertise...


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## ycanchu2

ATPFARM said:


> Huge thanks to all the regular contributors to this thread.... it has reached 100 pages and 3000 posts.... the most detailed thread I've ever read....!
> Special thanks to Agmantoo for countless hours of very technical and valuable cattle management expertise...


 Ditto.....I've learned more from this thread than all the books on rotational grazing I've read put together. At well into my 2nd year at this I am seeing my pasture improve by leaps and bounds.


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## kscaddo

New here. I just finished the whole topic. Took almost two weeks. Thanks to everyone as I've learned a heck of a lot about how to improve my small operation. It has been interesting to see some prolific posters fall away and others take up the slack. I'll stay tuned.
Regards


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## Lots2Learn

Awesome thread!
I think this is related. I would like to ask someone to outline their procedure for introducing a "sale barn" cow to an enriched diet of clover/alfalfa to prevent bloat.
I searched and couldn't find a thread or response addressing this topic. If I missed it could someone refer me to a post# where this has been covered?
Thanks agman and everyone that has contributed to this thread.


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## agmantoo

My process would be to fill the animal with common hay and then give her access to the clover /alfalfa for an hour or so. I would repeat this daily slowly increasing the time on the clover/alfalfa by 10 to 15 minutes each day. I would watch the waste discharge each day. If she get overly "loose" cut back on the clover/alfalfa and increase the common hay. You can regulate the condition of the manure until the bacteria for digesting the clover/alfalfa develops. I do not know much about the alfalfa but I do feed lots of clover with no bloating issues.


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## biggkidd

ycanchu2 said:


> Ditto.....I've learned more from this thread than all the books on rotational grazing I've read put together. At well into my 2nd year at this I am seeing my pasture improve by leaps and bounds.





ATPFARM said:


> Huge thanks to all the regular contributors to this thread.... it has reached 100 pages and 3000 posts.... the most detailed thread I've ever read....!
> Special thanks to Agmantoo for countless hours of very technical and valuable cattle management expertise...


Me too this thread from start to finish is what made me realize I could have cattle on my little bit of land. I am starting from scratch so it will take time. But many thanks to agmantoo and all the others that made this great.

Larry
A World Away


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## Lots2Learn

Thanks Agman.
You are the man! 
L2L


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## dannybardwell

planted my clover 3 weeks ago. with a little rye grass. thanks to AGMAN


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## dannybardwell

First winter of stockpiled forage: 
I have plenty of grass available now. 90 acres supporting 25 animal units... mixed bahaia and bermuda, and light clover. what i don't have is a lot of rotational fencing. some, but not a lot. i've got 5 acres fenced of clover ryegrass planted.. twelve acres fenced of stockpiled forage, the remainder of the place is open with plenty of grass.... i do not anticipate grazing problems untill january thru february....What i'm hoping to do, is go without hay, maybe a few lick tubs or cubes, but no hay is this feasible?.... Agman, as i remember, you do not use hay, but what about when the grass dies of frost and freeze? Will there still be a little nutritional grass below the dead grass?


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## Gabriel

Have you ever tested any of the dead grass? It's best if you know the nutritional starting point before you start adding anything.


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## dannybardwell

good idea...i have not had any of the dormant/dead forage tested... i will this winter, maybe several times to see how/if/when it drops off in nutritional value.


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## Gabriel

Your extension agent may be able to tell you what to expect, or perhaps an experienced rancher in your area can help. Also, it would help us help you if you would add your location.


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## dannybardwell

southwest mississippi.... the experienced ranchers in the area do not subscribe to AGMAN's way of farming.... rotational grazing, stockpiled forage, ect.... nor did i until a few years ago... i'm afraid i'm on my own..


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## agmantoo

Burmuda does not perform as well as the cooler season grasses here in western NC. I have no experience with Bahia. My main forage is from Fescue and Rye grass. As suggested from others, you need to find out what forages that will grow in your area and store nutrients in the plant suitable to maintaining your cattle. Here is a pic of grazed fescue in the foreground and the herd on the remaining background portion of the paddock. By doing some research I feel confident that you will find something to your satisfaction.


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## dannybardwell

rye grass does great here, if you fertilize...eventually i will be able to overseed with rye grass into fields rich in nitrogen because of the clover i am now establishing... to keep a good stand of rye grass it cost about 130-150 per acre per winter/spring..this includes topdressing 2 times a season. i've did all the traditional cattle wintering, planted and kept rye grass, fed hay and lick tubs, kept liquid feeders. this year i want to utilize my standing grass and a little planted green. We'll see...


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## agmantoo

Danny
With established pasture to maintain rye grass I buy 50 lbs of seed at $32/bag and seed at ~10 to 12 lbs/acre. No other inputs for the rye grass. Once you get your nutrient level up your costs should drop dramatically.


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## CedarMoore

For the people that sow ryegrass, are you doing it for fall/winter or early spring grazing? My only experience was last year. I sowed a few acres, in a thin area of fescue, in September hoping for December grazing. Also seeded a few acres in a good fescue stand to see its performance in early spring. The grass came in very good, but only reached four inches, at most, by December which the cattle grazed. This was the area that the fescue was thin. The other stand seeded with the good fescue didn't outperform the fescue until mid-spring when I could graze the fescue anyway. I didn't fertilize. I felt like I got a small return on my investment, but was hoping for more. How about your experience?

Does anybody sow fescue in the winter and let the cattle tromp it in the ground? Would the seed just rot? Thinking about seeding a few days in front of the cattle in thin/weak areas and then spreading the manure. Would this be a waste of time and seed?


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## WJMartin

Just wanted to give an update.

Summer grazing: The girls will run over you to get to the Johnson grass, they love it and stayed at a 6 - 7 all summer on mostly Johnson grass and native grasses. Bermuda was the last choice.

Fall grazing: We had a couple nights of frost and one freeze 31 degrees and now all they want to eat is the Bermuda. They stand at the fence looking over at the fresh grass waiting. I was able to stockpile some Bermuda, it is at least a foot tall and very thick and they act like they're starving they eat at it so fast. 

I have read that Bermuda will hold its protein for one month after a freeze so I'm thinking I won't be needing to feed hay until early Dec. and hope the rye comes back for early spring.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin,
What Bermuda existed here went totally brown following out first killing frost. The cattle will not eat it. Here is a pic of my fescue following the killing frost. The area in the forefront is where the cattle ate day before yesterday. The animals are on yesterdays allotment of fresh recently frosted grass. I believe the reason that I am a strong supporter of fescue is self evident. I am not permitting the herd to back graze as I am somewhat short of forage for all of Winter. The grazed area should have significant regrowth by year end provided we get more rain. Rain hase been in short supply here since August.


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## WJMartin

Agmantoo, you are the fescue whisperer! lol

I have some in the yard that has survived for 15 years but it is in shade and where water pools, not pasture conditions.

We are getting somewhat dry but not too bad. However, if you've never heard OK weathermen, "The next horrible, terrible, possible storm is coming, just wait!" There is always a chance of a tornado, not necessarily rain. lol

I have been quite happy with this year's forage, plenty of native and Johnson grass for spring and summer, lovely thick Bermuda for fall and early winter but it doesn't matter what you have if the girls won't eat it which is why this thread has been so helpful. How many times have I seen Agman tell someone to go look in the ditches and see what grows well in that particular area? 

If only I could get them to eat ragweed I'd really be happy.


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## biggkidd

Agman,

Your pasture looks great! I've been picking away at the stumps roots and rocks where my pasture will be. Did finally get a timber contract signed. They should start cutting by years end. Also talked with the local Co Op agent. Still trying to find a local source for litter to sweeten my fields for grass. Did get a line on free lime if I pick up and spread. That's going to save me several thousand dollars. So thinks are moving along slowly. 

The Ag agent suggests cedar post what do you think? I also am planning on class III field fence for the perimeter and electric for everything else. The field fence is crazy expensive but I want to be sure it lasts a lifetime. If we hadn't had such bad luck here with electric I would use it everywhere. 

*Thank you again for all your help!* 

Larry
A World Away


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## SCRancher

I have 6 strand (should have just left at 5 strand) perimeter fence that run's through open field and wooded areas - mostly it's wooded - 3 out of the 4 sections (rectangular property) are through woods.

If I had field fence I would have had to replace sections so many times it would not be funny. With just high tensile (200k+) I simply cut off the trees and branches that continually fall on my fence and it springs back up. In the 7 years my fence has been up I have only tightened the spring tensions once after the first year when everything was settling and stretching.

I only run cattle and only need to contain the large animals if I was running goats or sheep my fence may not be able to keep them in.

Personally if your running a cattle farm and no other animals I would recommend you not use field fence. Once the cattle are trained to the fence they respect it and that respect lasts a LONG time. I will routinely forget to turn my fence back on from daily moves and they won't even test temporary partition wire let alone the perimeter wire.

I am a huge fan of high-tensile electric fence.

I have NEVER had a calf let alone a cow escape my perimeter fence while all of my neighbors routinely have cattle escaping. I get calls from neighbors once or twice a year with neighbors trying to see if some cow they have found is mine - it never is.

That is not to say a determined cow or bull can't escape because I have had my bull escape my corral before resulting me having to replace a $100 tube construction cattle panel that he left a twisted mess upon escaping.


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## agmantoo

Initially I had lots of cedars growing on my place. I even went to the effort to have many of the better cedars sawn into square posts to be placed in the more visible portions of the perimeter fence. Many of these large cedars were all heart wood once processed. After roughly 18 years nearly all these posts have failed. The treated posts purchased through the local "farm" stores are now failing also. The only posts that have held up during the years are the recycled guard rail posts bought from a road repair contractor. Over time I have become aware that there exists galvanized tee posts. I would consider these and a high tensile 5 or 6 strand fence. I have had small calves get outside, the calves go under the fence, but never a problem with larger calves. The only wood posts that I would use would be the southern yellow pine treated to state standards for highway fencing. Such posts can be identified by having a brand burned in one end. Any fence wire I use would have to be grade 3 galvanized. Believe me as your operation grows you will have more things to do than replace fencing! The expenses for your fence will be written off as an expense on your IRS taxes. Wouldn't you rather write this off as opposed of contributing this money for the government to waste?


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## randyandmegs

I'm copying what Agmantoo does for the most part. I bought some treated posts that need painting already and they are only 3 years old damaged from boring bees. I am taking out A LOT of T posts and use them in line but all my main posts are used guard rail I beams. I also have a place within 10 miles that sells them as well which helps. I use 6' with wire spacing at 12" 22" 32" and 42" If I could offer one suggestion would be to go with Class III galvanized but use 170K versus 200K so you can hand tie the fence. I took pieces of 170k on the post side of the insulator and was able to tie it easily but had to crimp the other side which was my last ever roll of 200k wire I had left over.


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## biggkidd

Ok I'll have to see if I can find galvanized posts. Class III is the plan weather its high tinsel or field fence. 

Thanks everyone for the help.

Larry
A World Away


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## randyandmegs

I was finally able to get the pictures turned the right way and attached. That post pictured is not one of the 6' ones. That is a 10' buried 2-3' deep to support a 20' gate. I put the 6' down 2' leaving me 48" to work with. The surrounding dirt areas are from recent logging I had done.


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## biggkidd

Looks Good :happy:

Larry
A World Away


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## dcrichmond

The I beams look great. I am thinking of making a form and pouring 6 by 6 concrete posts (with rebar). Has anyone tried this? I would think they would be very durable.


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## Gabriel

http://agriculturalinsights.com/on-...a802bea7310b25f0df88c9e9293744bb79e27eebf9fb5

Good talk by Jim Elizondo about how to reduce/eliminate hay. I think it's no longer free by next Monday, so listen now.


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## dcrichmond

Gabriel said:


> http://agriculturalinsights.com/on-...a802bea7310b25f0df88c9e9293744bb79e27eebf9fb5
> 
> Good talk by Jim Elizondo about how to reduce/eliminate hay. I think it's no longer free by next Monday, so listen now.


Here is the link for the video version of the program

http://agriculturalinsights.com/how...5730794ecca7a8188a665024c323b6f1610019d2535a7


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## John5Dexters

Start off small. I purchased 3 Dexters a few years ago and have only 3 acres to run them on. My little place is cross fenced, but nothing compared to your farm size. I had read a ton on rotational grazing and thought I had it figured out when I bought the cattle. I learned very quickly that the type forage you have and the type cattle you are grazing will determine how quickly you must rotate them and how many animals you can utilize. My plan then and now is to use temporary electric fence rope with pigtail type posts so I can move them easily. I sectioned my entire place off into 5 paddocks - i think the recommendation is about 7 from the experts. When it came down to actually running the cattle on each section they would graze each one for about 3 days and then I would have to move them. They did eat almost everything and my weeds are minimal. The biggest problem I have run into is letting the cattle graze the forage too short and then not having enough rest time between grazing the same section again. It's working for me right now and I feed some hay in the winter, but probably not as much as most folks. I agree with several people in recommending the local extension agent. They have been a great help to me - after the fact - I wish I had gotten his input before setting up the sections and laying out the woven wire fencing that crosses my place. I like the quote from agmantoo - If they can do it you can do it.


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## MarkM

We are in a transition where we will double our available pasture in January but we are a little oversteocked where we are now.

We have been supplementing our daily moves with rolled out hay for about 10 days and that is working well.

We have some areas of fescue that we could go back to now but it has young ryegrass and legumes in it.

Will grazing the areas of fescue and young stuff be detrimental to the spring growth of the RG and legumes?

Should we stop now and sacrifice an area to feed hay?

Should we go over everything supplementing the daily move with hay?

Should we go over everything again without supplementing and then use a sacrificial area to feed.

Next year will be the third year of rotational and I am already excited about what I see coming for the spring. More legumes than ever. Most bare spots are now covered with litter and beginning to fill in.


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## agmantoo

MarkM said:


> We are in a transition where we will double our available pasture in January but we are a little oversteocked where we are now.
> 
> We have been supplementing our daily moves with rolled out hay for about 10 days and that is working well.
> *I would suggest continuing on the plan you are using. If your aren't feeding the hay on the poorest ground I would suggest that.
> 
> * We have some areas of fescue that we could go back to now but it has young ryegrass and legumes in it.
> * I would hold off on going to the fescue until it goes fully dormant. The ryegrass does need to establish a deep root if you want maximum performance in the Spring
> 
> * Will grazing the areas of fescue and young stuff be detrimental to the spring growth of the RG and legumes?
> *Yes on the grasses. On the legumes, if they are clovers the impact will be minimal, as they will freeze shorty if they haven't already.
> 
> 
> *
> Should we stop now and sacrifice an area to feed hay?
> *Stated above*
> 
> Should we go over everything supplementing the daily move with hay?
> *you can increase the value of lesser quality hay by letting the cattle graze the cool season grasses for a short time each day and* *then moving the animals onto cheap hay.* *Again, I would let the grasses grow as long as possible and feed the hay now. Should you get short on hay you can carry a cow on 6 to 7 lbs of stockpiled cool season grass and ~ 14 lbs of low quality hay provided the cow is in good body condition going into Winter. IMO it doesn't hurt an animal to loose some body condition as she will regain the loss with compensatory gain in the Spring.* *Obviously this does not apply to extremely cold climates.*
> 
> Should we go over everything again without supplementing and then use a sacrificial area to feed.
> *I always feed hay in troubled areas on the farm. It is an excellent method to give a non productive area a significant boost.*
> 
> Next year will be the third year of rotational and I am already excited about what I see coming for the spring. More legumes than ever. Most bare spots are now covered with litter and beginning to fill in.


*Be cautious to not get too many legumes early on. Let the grasses fully establish prior to giving the legumes a chance to multiply.* *I have seen legumes choke grass creating bare spots in the winter.*


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## am1too

dcrichmond said:


> The I beams look great. I am thinking of making a form and pouring 6 by 6 concrete posts (with rebar). Has anyone tried this? I would think they would be very durable.


That's my plan for the corners.


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## ycanchu2

am1too said:


> That's my plan for the corners.


 Should work great...but an awful lot of work, not to mention heavy. Probably will cost as much as a good treated or RR tie.


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## Gabriel

If you're trying to stretch your hay, this is the most efficient way that I've found to feed. 



After you unroll the bale, simply move the fence wire next to the edge and the cattle will reach under it and eat about half of what you unrolled.


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## SCRancher

Yup I did that 2 winters ago. Last winter I had the bales parked at the top of a slope that really needed more organic matter. I just pushed the round bales down the hill. If they didn't unroll all the way it was OK because the cows would finish unrolling the bale for me. The grass there was much better in that area this year.

This year I am not feeding hay - first winter I'm going to try it. If I run out of forage I will have to move my cows to a new place I bought last January. I have been working on the house since then and it's almost ready to move into. The fences will need work before I can turn cows loose there. The fields have not been cut since before I purchased the place.

I am really hoping that I will not have to move the cows but if I do that's just the way of it.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo

How do you feel about using 170kpsi wire? That must have been what I had on my most recent posts because it was fairly easy to work with and hand tie. I am using 180k now and I'm having a pretty hard time getting it to tie. I'm working in a few tight spots lately and its about impossible to work with it. If I have a long tail after the first wrap around I can generally get it going from there. I have to purchase about 20k ft of it soon and didn't want to get the wrong thing. I can hardly find 180 let alone 170 locally so I will likely have to order it. I sure understand now about your warning on wearing safety glasses after the tail end popped me in the eye, just too bad stupid me had the glass sitting up on my head after stopping to raise them up to read a text message a few minutes before. A lot of good the glasses did me up there.


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## agmantoo

The tensile strength of the high tensile wire doesn't concern me that much. 
Having the correct tools along with some helpful learned tips will let you work the wire regardless of tensile strength. The lower strength does work better on end posts when forming H braces. I am insistent that the galvanizing be grade 3 however. Since I have no means of verifying the quality of the plating I try to adhere to using a brand name product anticipating that their QC department verified the coating to be in compliance and as advertised. Wear the safety glasses


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## ATPFARM

That last Sentence has been great advice for me...You mentioned it way back in the thread and I took the safety glasses to heart.... i'm thankful for your experience...


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## SCRancher

Yea I use the high tensile wire 200k or 220k can't remember which. You will ruin anything you try to cut the wire with other than the proper tool found out the hard way when I ruined my best wire cutter although is now also makes a decent wire stripper . The wire tool I use has the crimper on it so I just built mine that way, I have no idea how to hand tie.


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## ramiller5675

I always just used the 200K wire, mainly because I can get it locally. 

I've never used a crimping tool, I just tie it off similar to how it's shown in this video:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCcwqEWWSeY[/ame]

The only difference is that I usually make about 4-5 wraps instead of 2-3 wraps like they suggest in the video. When I tie on an insulator, I just wrap it 4-5 times and break the wire. Once you figure out that you just have to wrap the wire fast enough to get it "hot" and then it will break off cleanly, you'll find out it's a lot easier to hand-tie than trying to use pliers and crimpers. 

And, I have a cheap pair of fencing pliers that I use to cut high tensile wire so I don't have to worry about ruining an expensive pair of pliers, they wear out quicker, but they will still work for barb wire or to throw in the pickup for emergency repairs.


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## mulemom

If it helps anyone we use a cheap short handled pair of bolt cutters to cut ht wire. (Think Harbor Freight) Bought my crimper tool back in the 80's and it doesn't have a cutter on it. Younger hands back then could cut the wire with fence pliers but now no way. Bolt cutters make it easy though it does mean another tool to carry. Crimp sleeves aren't cheap but are much easier to use now than tying. If you tie remember that the wire noose will tighten around whatever you tie to. Agmantoo-have to thank you for all the knowledge you've contributed to this thread.


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## gwithrow

so we are completing our third cycle of the year, the cows are happy and next week we will be starting over again but the pastures have not recovered as I had hoped...we had a very dry spell in early Sept/Oct and while there is regrowth it is not great....

I did not have an area that I could do without in August and Sept, so all we have now is what has grown since mid Sept....ok, on to my question:..

what is the best way to utilize these fields?..give them larger paddocks? and still move them daily?...or hold them up somewhere and feed hay for a month or so, then start again...

I don't want to set things back for early spring...the Marshall rye is coming up, about 4 inches or so...and it will continue til iti s hot?....but if I let the cows hit what there is hard, will this create a problem in Mar and April?....once Spring is here again we should be fine, there is good ground moisture and after 3 years of MIG, we should be reaping the results of that....

any advice is appreciated...hold them up with hay? or graze what is there, even if it gets eaten pretty close to the ground...???????


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## ycanchu2

I don't think you could go wrong either way. Sounds like you are gonna have to feed hay sometime anyway. I am too...but not much. I personally wouldn't worry about grazing it too short this time of year.
Sounds like you have some long recovery periods going on. To me, I think that is the key to the whole thing.....long recovery periods. Let it grow long. IMO however big your grass gets say 4 inches, 6 inches or 12 inch to 16 inch blades then that is where it will grow back to without a lot of effort given enough recovery time.
I have a neighbor across the road from me that moved his cattle off that farm because he ran out of grass three months ago due to continuous grazing and it has hardly regrew any and we have had lots of rain here. It just popped up there to about the 2 or 3 inch mark and stopped. That's all the root system will support.


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## agmantoo

*what is the best way to utilize these fields?..give them larger paddocks? * * and still move them daily?... **If you already have hay, I would reduce the size of the paddocks and I would reduce the time available for them to graze. Following a daily movement, I would give their rations of hay. The hay I provided would the lowest quality that I had. or hold them up somewhere and feed hay for a month or so, then start again..* do not feed hay for a month this late in the season, just supplement after the limited grazing mentioned. We will get minimal growth from here on this year and nearly none in Jan. and Feb. Come Mar. what residual growth that was preserved by doing as I suggested will start growing as the temperature starts to rise and the days get longer. The more leaf that exists will absorb more sunlight. That is the time period for confining the cattle and feeding hay only for a few weeks. Note....in normal rainfall years had I been short on forage coming out of Summer I would have fed some hay and let the paddocks recover in late Sept. and Oct. and early Nov. This just was to NOT happen in our area this year. Your need to see your way in having adequate feed for the next 75 to 90 days as is. I am certain your animals are in body condition score 5 or better. IMO it does not hurt to let the cattle drop a little weight for a short period if need be. For the last while I have every other day been stretching my available forage by reducing the allocation of grazing area by ~30%. I have noticed no notable change in the animals. When the colder days of Winter arrive I will revert to the normal volume of forage. Then again as we near the growing season for the cool season grass to regrow and stockpiled grass is in short supply, I may revert to the every other day reduction provided I need to ration grass. In Mar. as Spring growth spurts, compensatory gain will correct any issues that may have resulted.
* 
I don't want to set things back for early spring...the Marshall rye is coming up, about 4 inches or so...and it will continue til iti s hot?.. *The rye will grow almost as long as the fescue.*
..but if I let the cows hit what there is hard, will this create a problem in Mar and April? *I addressed this above with feeding the hay.


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## gwithrow

thanks, I now have a plan for this area that the cows have now moved to...they will graze a small area during the day, move to the central area in the evening where they will be offered hay.....then repeat....when we get to Jan and Feb, I have two areas that will benefit from unrolled hay and lots of stomping......the bull is here, arrived yesterday for a couple of months so it will be a good time to keep an eye on them all...

by March the pastures in the 'first' of our rotation will be good for grazing, I could put the cows there now, but it won't hurt to let those areas, rest and have a long recovery time....and round and round we go....


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## agmantoo

I had a request to show some of my Winter grazing following the drought we had in the Fall. So here goes. These pics were taken today on my phone. Pic one, two, and 5 is where the herd is grazing today. Pic three is where the herd grazed in Dec on the left of the fence, on the rt of the fence is future feed. Pic 4 is for Jan grazing 2014.









<a href="http://s73.photobucket.com/user/agmantoo/media/winter%202013/c41848bb-0535-40eb-b160-783561771c94_zps850870f0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/winter%202013/c41848bb-0535-40eb-b160-783561771c94_zps850870f0.jpg" border="0" alt="cold winter grazing photo c41848bb-0535-40eb-b160-783561771c94_zps850870f0.jpg"/></a>


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## hondac

agmantoo said:


> I had a request to show some of my Winter grazing following the drought we had in the Fall. So here goes. These pics were taken today on my phone. Pic one, two, and 5 is where the herd is grazing today. Pic three is where the herd grazed in Dec on the left of the fence, on the rt of the fence is future feed. Pic 4 is for Jan grazing 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <a href="http://s73.photobucket.com/user/agmantoo/media/winter%202013/c41848bb-0535-40eb-b160-783561771c94_zps850870f0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/agmantoo/winter%202013/c41848bb-0535-40eb-b160-783561771c94_zps850870f0.jpg" border="0" alt="cold winter grazing photo c41848bb-0535-40eb-b160-783561771c94_zps850870f0.jpg"/></a>


Agmantoo: How much area are you currently allocating per day?


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## agmantoo

hondac
The weather has not turned cold for an extended time yet. I am on a rotating schedule of day 1 of ~36000 sq ft , day 2 of ~36000 sq ft, day 3 of ~45000 sq ft of allocated area and then I repeat this schedule. On days where the weather has been warm for short periods I hold to the 36000 sq ft. My observation of the cattle is that they are accepting this routine calmly. Hungry cattle will let you know when they are not getting enough feed. I am doing this to stretch the forage that I have available.


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## SteveO

Agman,
What height would you say your cattle are at the shoulder? I am trying to compare them to mine. And could you confirm that you have 100 or so cows plus calves grazing up to stocker weight.
thanks
steveo


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## agmantoo

SteveO

My best guess is that the average cow is roughly 48 to 49 inches at the hip. My cattle weigh approximate 1000 to 1025 lbs when in good condition. I try to keep 100 brood cows at all times. That will include a few replacement bred heifers. At this time I have around 30 calves from birth to 3 months of age. Additionally, there must be 12 to 14 calves that will go to market soon. I did sell some feeder calves at year end that were a little light to reduce the load on my paddocks as I am lacking in forage due to drought in the Fall. If Winters lingers into Spring I will have to purchase a 100 or so round bales.


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## randyandmegs

Is that due to the lack of rain in Sept and Oct? I know I have had to feed a lot more hay this year than last, my first attempt with Marshall isn't doing great and what fescue I stockpiled doesn't look like it will last me very long. I keep waiting to turn them in on that because the Marshall didn't do well. I also planted it too late I'm sure. 

Sorry just re-read you post explaining the drought causing the shortage.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs

I have Marshall ryegrass that is still attempting to establish itself so do not give up as it may provide early Spring grazing as it will possibly start growing up to 2 weeks before the fescue.

My current forage issues are IMO all related to dry weather.


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## kile529

I've been trying to read up on several pages, but I'm so new to cattle that it reads like greek to me. I'm looking at getting 2 calves to bottle raise. I'd like to do rotational grazing and have 3-4 acres to do it with. I'm in lower mid-Michigan and they say an acre per head of cattle. It's basically a rectangle. How many pastures to I make? 2 with a sacrifice area? Any suggestions would be wonderful!! Thank you!


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## MarkM

I am in zone 7. We have had a few days of really cold (below 10) weather as well as some ice and snow.

The question is this. Does the ryegrass and clover that I planted in the fall, and which was sprouted and growing, as well as "volunteer" clover, vetch, singletary pea all completely die? Will the spring stand come from newly germinated seed, or do the plants that appear burned and the ryegrass that is browned come back?


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## Allen W

They all should winter over and begin growing again soon.


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## MarkM

Thanks, Allen. I will choose to be excited because this will be our third year of rotation and this past fall I saw dramatically more of those legumes than ever before.

Now, if I were going to let the animals hoof in a warm season annual in the sacrificial area, what would be a good choice?


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## Allen W

Crabgrass


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## ycanchu2

Crabgrass is a perennial, is it not?


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## Allen W

Annual, just makes lots of seed if you let it.


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## ramiller5675

Crabgrass is an annual and it takes a little bit of tillage or disturbance to come back each year. The only tillage my crabgrass gets is from a no-till drill, so it doesn't take a lot of disturbance to get it to grow.

I sort of grow it as a double-crop in my wheat fields, I've never spread any crabgrass seed, it's just a volunteer stand that usually comes up every year. Last year after the wheat was harvested I put down about 30 lb. N per acre, the crabgrass took off, and in about 4-5 weeks I was able to bale over 4000 lb. of hay per acre. Then I let it regrow and grazed it before planting wheat in the fall.

When I feed that hay, sometimes I'll get some crabgrass coming up from the seed in the bale.


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## ycanchu2

Allen W said:


> Annual, just makes lots of seed if you let it.


You are correct......I think I had Bermuda grass on my mind.


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## SCRancher

Ok I have had an access issue for over 18 months now; by court order I am allowed to remove cattle but that's it, no bringing in supplies by vehicle, only what I can carry. When the issue started I had 50 1k bales of hay already on the property so the first winter I was good. This past year was looking great until we had the fall drought and I didn't get enough regrowth. I skimped along as long as I could but finally ran completely out of anything substantial to eat yesterday; several days ago I arranged to move my cattle to my new property.

I was hoping that I was going to have enough forage to last through the winter without having to move them (or bring in hay which I can't do) but I just didn't make it. 

My stocking density is pretty high but not at Agmantoo's level yet. I have 40 acres of pasture and 32 total head of cattle of which 9 are calves 7 months old or less with the rest of the cattle in the 11+ age range. So roughly 20 full grown on 40 acres with an additional 40 acres of woodland with small meadows that I run the cattle through 3-4 times per year for a short time - perhaps 20 days total.

I moved 24 cattle to the new place yesterday and the ate from the time I unloaded them till it got dark. The new place is not setup for rotational grazing having roughly 40 acres divided into roughly 20 acres each. The good thing is it does have high tensile electric fence (poorly constructed) already but I was late ordering a new fence charger so it will be here in a few days then I will have the task of finding all the shorts I am positive are in it. It will only have 1 hot strand for now as that is all I had time to try to fix prior to the cows arriving.

The 8 - 6 month old calves I left as they should be able to find enough to eat over the 80 acres - they have been roaming all over the place already and looked in good condition. I will be monitoring them closely to make sure they don't lose weight. The 9th calf was too small to be separated from the mama cow so he with the larger cows.

The plus side is that rotational grazing got me this far into the winter; yes my cows are in rough shape but until now they at least has something to graze. All of my neighbors have been feeding hay since around mid October or so.


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## SLFarmMI

I haven't read all the posts but I've read a fair few and I have a question that I haven't seen addressed. I warn you in advance that it is going to be a stupid question because my background is in the suburbs and I don't know squat about pasture but I'm trying to learn.

DH and I have bought 11 acres and are in the process of converting it from traditional corn/soybean crops to orchard/pasture and a sustainable garden area. Eventually we would like to have a few goats, sheep, chickens and a calf or two. There is nothing that I would describe as pasture on the place. There are some grassy places around the buildings. I know we have some white clover and some red clover. We also have a ton of what I think are thistles (purple flowers and very pokey). We also have a lot of dandelions. That's the extent of the plants that I can identify in the grassy areas. I have no idea what kind of grass the grass is. Too me all grass looks the same. I'd take a picture but right now everything is buried under about a foot and a half of snow.

So my question is, does anyone have a good resource that I can look at to figure out what kind of plants we should be planting to achieve a good pasture for what we want to raise? We are in SE Michigan about a half hour north of Ohio. I know that our soil is a clay/clay loam and it can be fairly wet (one future project is to tile the fields). Thanks for any help you can provide.


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## ycanchu2

SL farmMI.......contact your local NRCS office


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## ramiller5675

I've never converted an entire field from cropland to pasture before, but I have a long lane area (~2 ac.) along a wheat field that I have converted to grass, and from what I've seen the same method would work on a bigger field.

I didn't plant any grass seed of any kind. I started with wheat stubble in the summer, moved the cattle back and forth a few times letting them graze it a little, but basically just let the weeds and grass grow until fall, then I brush hogged it all down.

The next spring, I sprayed it to control the weeds, let the cattle graze it a few times, and mowed it again in the fall. 

Now, I have a stand of volunteer crabgrass, the native grasses (little bluestem, indian grass, etc.) are starting to come in, and a few scattered clumps of johnson grass. I treat it as a paddock when I have to move cattle back and forth and now it's their job to maintain that grass. 

I don't see the need to spend money on grass seed that might not even be able to compete with the grasses that are going to start coming up on their own over time. The only thing I might plant is some sort of "nurse" crop like wheat or oats that's inexpensive and easy to grow. 

I would focus on controlling any weeds and doing simple soil tests to make sure your fertility isn't off in some way (if it was a former corn field, I'd guess that the fertility is fine for growing grass).


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## Awnry Abe

not to change the subject...but...

Starting in late January I had to unroll hay daily. My hay hauling tractor went kaput late last week. A friend let me borrow his for a day to stage many days of hay in different paddocks. This thread inspired me to try a MIG like approach. I unrolled the hay in straight rows then took step-in posts and placed them in 5-gallon buckets filled with gravel, then stretched a poly-wire between them. Moving the buckets stunk, but it has been working. I am able to control the hay consumption vs. just having the cows make a mess over the whole lot.


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## DEKE01

For rotational grazers, I don't think you'll find anything new here, but it does give a good over view to share with your friends who think you are crazy for moving cattle every day. 

http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/63637-cell-grazing?r=y


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## Gabriel

There is a youtube series entitled "Sustainable Ranching" by Living Web Farms that's very good. Each part is quite long (for youtube) but well worth the time.


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## agmantoo

It has been a long hard Winter for rotational grazers. I have been feeding hay for the last week. I will probably continue feeding hay for another week thus allowing the pastures to grow. This was the worst Winter that I have gone through since going into year round grazing. However, the weather has now shifted for the better and I see some encouragement. This afternoon I took time to travel over the farm to see what the paddocks looked like. I was pleasantly surprised to see the cool season grasses growing and small clover leaves emerging.


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## WJMartin

Can you expand on what made this winter more difficult? Here it was temps and dry, we just got 1/2 inch of moisture,(sleet, snow & rain) and think we're in heaven. It is warmer today but really need some moisture to get the pastures to green up.


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## agmantoo

WJMartin

Dry period during the time period when my stockpiled grasses should have been growing resulted in a shortage of forage. Rain came too late as Winter arrived and the temps dropped thus limiting the growth. 

The needs of the herd for good stockpiled nutrition escalated as the low temps dropped to decades lows. I am unsure of the cause but I even had one newborn calf to loose its tail. (Possibly froze?) The poor quality of the feed was also stressful on the mature animals. 

We are now in a mud period uncommon to this location. The ground froze deeper than normal and with recent rains muck is everywhere with the thaw. I use a skidsteer to feed hay and yesterday I got it stuck for a short time. 

I realize that nature is something that we need to accept and I am not complaining. I am just grateful that things look better going forward. PS....I did manage during all the above to sell a load of feeder calves for an all time high!


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## DEKE01

Agnmantoo, that is a great testament to the value of managed grazing. Very unfavorable weather and the price you pay is a couple of weeks of hay. It sounds like you did a great job of managing your resources.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> WJMartin
> 
> Dry period during the time period when my stockpiled grasses should have been growing resulted in a shortage of forage. Rain came too late as Winter arrived and the temps dropped thus limiting the growth.
> 
> The needs of the herd for good stockpiled nutrition escalated as the low temps dropped to decades lows.* I am unsure of the cause but I even had one newborn calf to loose its tail. (Possibly froze?)* The poor quality of the feed was also stressful on the mature animals.
> 
> We are now in a mud period uncommon to this location. The ground froze deeper than normal and with recent rains muck is everywhere with the thaw. I use a skidsteer to feed hay and yesterday I got it stuck for a short time.
> 
> I realize that nature is something that we need to accept and I am not complaining. I am just grateful that things look better going forward. PS....I did manage during all the above to sell a load of feeder calves for an all time high!


I have a newborn without a tail also. can't figure it out. Thought maybe it might of gotten stepped on, but don't know. But it could have frozen.


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## Farmerboy16

agmantoo said:


> WJMartin
> 
> Dry period during the time period when my stockpiled grasses should have been growing resulted in a shortage of forage. Rain came too late as Winter arrived and the temps dropped thus limiting the growth.
> 
> The needs of the herd for good stockpiled nutrition escalated as the low temps dropped to decades lows. I am unsure of the cause but I even had one newborn calf to loose its tail. (Possibly froze?) The poor quality of the feed was also stressful on the mature animals.
> 
> We are now in a mud period uncommon to this location. The ground froze deeper than normal and with recent rains muck is everywhere with the thaw. I use a skidsteer to feed hay and yesterday I got it stuck for a short time.
> 
> I realize that nature is something that we need to accept and I am not complaining. I am just grateful that things look better going forward. PS....I did manage during all the above to sell a load of feeder calves for an all time high!


That is great that you only had to be feeding them hay for a few weeks. I had been feeding them hay since November, and snow average 2 feet around here.  Can't wait for spring!


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## Awnry Abe

Look at that green! Nothing around here even comes close to resembling that. Brown rules here.


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## SteveO

Also feeding hay for another 3 weeks or so but the clover is a comin.
Agman have you heard from godsapeach on how things are going for her. 
Sure could use another 20 acres though it would make the hay season shorter. We got up to 23 with 8 pregnant. Not good for 12 acres to graze. sold a couple and just took 2 to freezercamp. So we now have a daycare. 5 under a month 8 under a year and 9 adults. Poor planning on my part so we learn and move on.
Your help in getting started was invaluable.
Thanks again
Steve


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## gwithrow

so here we are, almost to official Spring?....I am almost out of hay...the cows are not in bad shape, but I need to have a plan for the next couple of weeks...should I continue feeding all the hay out, it will last another week, maybe....and then start rotations....sort of like 'ready or not, here they come'?......or put cows now in a small area feeding a reduced amount of hay before letting them out?...and move that area daily???? I don't want to damage any paddocks but neither can I afford to buy any more hay...the grass is growing, slowly....clover beginning to return...what a terrible season it has been!!

also need a source for crabgrass seed...for a warm season area that we are opening up...there are already some native grasses in that area, but it seems it would be prudent to sow some annual seed down there and graze it in July and August...

is there something not out of sight money wise that would be better?...

as a side note, the local groundhog bit his handler when he was pulled out of his hole for Feb 2nd....should we not all have known this winter would continue on and on??


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## agmantoo

gwithrow

I too am almost out of hay. My herd does not have a calender so "Spring" arrived here Saturday! 

To minimize the chance of bloat I filled the animals gut with hay to limit how much fresh grass they could consume and put them on the tallest grass that I had. Now I am having to rotate in this slush.

As for the crabgrass....the second year after planting offers better yield typically but you must let the crabgrass make seed so do not graze it too low. Stockpiling your Spring grasses may be a better choice for bulk "better than a snowball" late July/August dry weather feed.


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## agmantoo

SteveO said:


> Also feeding hay for another 3 weeks or so but the clover is a comin.
> Agman have you heard from godsapeach on how things are going for her.
> 
> Steve


I have not heard from godsgapeach in some time. Hopefully all is well. Possibly she will see our posts and respond.


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## Gabriel

Gwithrow, I can't remember how many cattle/acres you have. Unless you have substantially more land than you need in the normal growing season I recommend you cull the worst of your cattle right now rather than start grazing when the grass is immature. Prices are still good.


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## ycanchu2

gwithrow said:


> so here we are, almost to official Spring?....I am almost out of hay...the cows are not in bad shape, but I need to have a plan for the next couple of weeks...should I continue feeding all the hay out, it will last another week, maybe....and then start rotations....sort of like 'ready or not, here they come'?......or put cows now in a small area feeding a reduced amount of hay before letting them out?...and move that area daily???? I don't want to damage any paddocks but neither can I afford to buy any more hay...the grass is growing, slowly....clover beginning to return...what a terrible season it has been!!
> 
> also need a source for crabgrass seed...for a warm season area that we are opening up...there are already some native grasses in that area, but it seems it would be prudent to sow some annual seed down there and graze it in July and August...
> 
> is there something not out of sight money wise that would be better?...
> 
> as a side note, the local groundhog bit his handler when he was pulled out of his hole for Feb 2nd....should we not all have known this winter would continue on and on??


I have enough hay to get to the end of next week. Instead of buying more hay, unless I change my mind, I am going to start flash grazing thru the farm...the part that has been untouched or grazed since I ran out of stockpiled grass earlier in the winter. There has been some grow in the last few days, not a lot but some and hopefully some more by the end of next week. By flash grazing I mean....giving them 3 or 4 acres where normally I would give them one or less. So I would be going thru the whole farm in 20 to 30 days. By then we should be seeing significant growth. Also I have a lot of of old growth from some summer grasses that should buffer the new grass with fiber.


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## mulemom

Agmantoo we would love to see green like you have. If we squint we can see a slight tint to the brown. Ground is still frozen below about six inches, muck on top of that. Around 45 degree average this week but it's supposed to go below freezing again Sunday through Wednesday. It looks like a wet spring so still no pasture for a while.


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## Awnry Abe

ycanchu2 said:


> I have enough hay to get to the end of next week. Instead of buying more hay, unless I change my mind, I am going to start flash grazing thru the farm...the part that has been untouched or grazed since I ran out of stockpiled grass earlier in the winter. There has been some grow in the last few days, not a lot but some and hopefully some more by the end of next week. By flash grazing I mean....giving them 3 or 4 acres where normally I would give them one or less. So I would be going thru the whole farm in 20 to 30 days. By then we should be seeing significant growth. Also I have a lot of of old growth from some summer grasses that should buffer the new grass with fiber.


15 bales left for me, which is 15 days worth, starting tomorrow. I have them on a sacrificial postage stamp sized paddock. I thought I was going stir crazy. Poor things. My plan is to move them up to the working pens in two weeks, then do what you mentioned. Fingers are crossed. I could probably just buy one or two more week's worth of hay and uncross them, but I hate the hassle of buying hay. If I recall correctly, I turned the cows out last spring in the first week of April. 

Would this be a good time to broadcast some seed over the sacrificial paddock? It's about 5 acres. It is part of a much larger paddock that I cut down in size over the winter because part of it was in poor shape, and I didn't want them to ruin the good part. Plus it had a nice pond on it that I could rely on, and did rely on, if the waterer plumbing froze.


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## Ironbutt

Here in eastern NC , we had late fall drought with little regrowth. terrible winter with temps I haven't seen since 1983. On top of that 3 more snows than we usually get and one freezing rain event. Has rained nearly every week with temps in 40's & 50's. I have averaged 1" of rain per week.
Marshall rye started growing about 2 weeks ago with ocassional 70 plus degree days with one monday reaching 80. Average day temps have been 45-55. Turning herd on pasture next week as my hay will be gone. Hoping warmer temps will bump the rye into overdrive.
Had a Dexter pure bred calf born in Nov. along with 3 Dangus calves that have managed the winter pretty good. 
Thinking of having a family event the day we open the pastures back to the herd. The cows have been ooglying the green grass several weeks now...


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## Alaska

less than half an inch of rain here so far this year.


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## WJMartin

Have made the decision to go ahead and buy 9 more round bales. I don't need it to finish up this year, I hope, but it will get me a good start for next winter and who knows what hay will be like this coming year.


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## Ironbutt

Agmantoo a question for you? 
I was recently told not to drag my pastures as this atributed to the decline of dung beetles and that the beetles needed a large pat to keep the soil cool to promote their burrowing for reproduction. I know from your dung beetle post you were trying to find dung beetle larvae one time. That being a old thread what have you experienced? 
I Wonder if dragging hurt the population? If it caused a declined in the population? Or is it just as strong but not as noticeable?
I would hate to lose the beetles, but I know from soil tests dragging has increased my pastures fertility, increased the vigor of my grass and elimated cows grazing around large patties. Your thoughts ????


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## randyandmegs

I can tell you from my experience the last few years. We have a lot of the smaller type dung beetles. They normally break down a pat in about 72 hours. I wait until they have done most of their work and then drag the pasture.


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## agmantoo

I have been very busy but got a chance to take a few pics today. Here is how the farm looked 

This is the area where I had to feed hay to finish out Winter


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## agmantoo

This is the long awaited new growth and the current forage being fed. The herd can be seen in the center of the pic at the far distance of the paddock area.


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## agmantoo

Well digested decent forage instead of the low quality hay that was fed the last few weeks of Winter.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, 
Is that your lane in dirt? I'm building mine now 60' wide and trying to figure out how to utilize the lane in areas where the timber was cut that is dirt now as well as be to able to establish grass.


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## agmantoo

*Is that your lane?*
That is my main access lane! Rather barren isn't it? IMO it will heal quickly. This is rich soil that warm ground and rain will again make productive. I will reroute my travel or I will commit to traveling to one side and address that portion of the lane once the main damage has recovered.


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## randyandmegs

After 3 years a working toward managed grazing I finally got the herds combined today. All the black ones are the ones my wife and I have purchased as well as the black calves out of the Pharo Bull. Hopefully the black ones can quickly teach the others to go under the electric fence to the lane and water.


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## Awnry Abe

A sure sign of spring: The bale spike is coming off the tractor! ...for 2 reasons:

1) I turned the cows out if their teeny little winter CAFO situation onto grass today and
2) I'm out of hay.


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## agmantoo

The situation here with the cattle continues to improve as true Spring arrives. I see the animals gaining body condition as well as their getting back into the rotational grazing schedule. The grasses are growing but the legumes are seemingly behind schedule. At this juncture I have not seen a requirement to add commercial fertilizer but as some of you may know my source of chicken litter ceased due to a fire last Fall. As it was prior to the fire, due to limited availability of litter, I was only applying litter on 20 percent of the farm on a rotational basis once per year. I did pick up some more land suitable for grazing but it is not contiguous to the cattle farm. Currently I am working to improve this land and if I use it for cattle I will have to build fence. Some planning and uncertainty as to the direction that will be taken has me concerned. Meanwhile, this is how the cattle appeared this afternoon.


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## gwithrow

they look happy, happy, happy!


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## ycanchu2

I am seeing earthworms and earthworm castings like never before. I am seeing several in and under each and every manure pile. I didn't drag any of mine this year. Also just seeing lots of earthworm castings in general everywhere in the pastures....so that's very encouraging.
Wonder if anyone else has noticed the same thing.


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## gwithrow

yes, here we see them if we turn a patty over, the worms that is...I am leaving them be for now...and hoping to see the dung beetles show up soon....
I am working on repairing bare spots where my husband over zealously sprayed for the horse nettle last year...if you spray enough, apparently, you will kill off the neighboring grass as well as the weeds...


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## WJMartin

We are still so dry that I have very little grass in the pasture. Have had to split my small herd (9!) and put 4 on a neighbors 9 acres and so far they are still in grass, the 5 I have here, 3 cows + 2 calves, have mowed down all the grass close by. Moved them into the old pond bottom which has abundance of some flowering weed that the cows and horses love to eat when tender so have moved them there last night. When they saw that green stuff they ran right past me and my bucket of cubes, I'm not sure they even stopped eating to sleep. 

We got a quarter inch of rain two days ago but we had so much wind that it was dry in an hour. Hoping we get some more rain over the weekend. Our weathermen only talk about the very slight chance of tornados, we figure they've turned saying the word, tornado, into a drinking game, Lord, knows everyone else around here has.


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## Allen W

WJMartin I'm sick of the tornado hype by our local weather man. All I got out of the storm was wind. 

I burnt a small patch of native grass and ceders, about 3 acres, earlier and the grass is only greening up in the clear areas away from the cedars. A neighbor burnt some for me and it's just barely greening up with no real growth. The cheat grass hasn't made any real growth and if it doesn't rain the native grass isn't going to get started very well.


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## WJMartin

Allen W. Don't you love cedars?! We've been unable to burn any that we've cut for a year, I've got brush piles everywhere but they aren't sucking moisture from the grass. 

I've been looking into buying some round bales to beef up my hay stash. If we don't get rain soon I'll have to hay the cows and horses all summer and pray for fall grazing. I have a separate 15 acres that I save back for July/August grazing but this year I'll probably graze it mid May or so before it dies and then start haying.

I didn't want to cull anyone for two more years but may have to start this year. I hate having to do that.

The dry line is suppose to be sitting up in the Texas Panhandle for Sat. night, so I'm doing a rain dance hoping that we all get rain, a lot of rain.


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## Allen W

WJMartin
Last I seen the weather it looked like the storms were going to build in the south west. We can't get a break up here it don't seem like. I don't know if I'll have any wheat or rye to swath and bale, let alone harvest for grain. Insurance adjuster looked at my wheat yesterday and we decided to wait to fill a claim, that it will get worse if it doesn't rain.

The hill I burnt is across the road from the house and the build up of needles under the trees smoked off and on for a week. I was alright as long as the wind had a westerly direction but lost some sleep and my desire to do any more burning until conditions improve.

I've been using a Stihl FS130 with a saw type blade cutting the smaller cedars as I get time. It does a good job up to a little over an inch in diameter. My wife is still comfortable using it as a weed eater.


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## WJMartin

Allen W. I have a lot of cheat grass but didn't think the cows would eat any of it, do your cows? I've had some type of brome start up, probably from hay, that my cows refused to eat last year, if it returns this year I think I'll pen them up in this area until they have to eat it or starve, my girls are too picky.

We struggled with a chainsaw and clearing cedars for a few years and then went into debt for a bobcat with a tree cutting setup, worth every bit of interest to the bank. On our 60 acres we have cut out over 1,000 cedars, DH says 2,000 and if he counted right there's still a million standing. Seems when you cut out a couple of large ones there are a dozen little ones hiding.

If we ever get a foot of snow I might get enough nerve to light one of the big piles. I love a good bonfire.

No one around here is burning since two months ago a farmer 5 - 6 miles out of town had a permit for a controlled burn and was burning cedar brush piles. City came out, cut his fence instead of using gate and cussed him out and put out the under control burn. We had a light snow the day of the burn and light wind. 

City came out the next day with a dozer with intentions to bury the still smoldering logs, problem was the snow had evaporated because of 40 mph wind gusting to 60 mph and everything was dried out. They sparked a grass fire that burned over 300 acres, several barns and killed over 100 cows. 

City of course claims no responsibility and farmer had only 1 million in insurance. Last I heard he's going to have to totally sell out. Hope he hires a good lawyer first.

I turned my horses loose in the front yard, trimming done, but they do a lousy job on the edging of the walkway.


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## Allen W

WJMartin Yes my cows will eat cheat, they doing it right now. This is good for helping to id cheat types, it's fact sheet L-316 at your extension office, http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2850/L-316Keep.pdf. Put the cattle to it and keep it ate until later next month which should keep it from making much if any seed. a heavy crop of cheat seems to be hard on our warm season grasses especially with our limited moisture we have right now.

The cedar war is ongoing and I think it's worse in your area with more rain fall.

The fire danger this year is multiplied by the total lack of topsoil moisture and desert dry air and terrible wind we've been having. It is hard to understand why people are burning when we have 40 plus winds predicted for the next day.


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## ycanchu2

I have alittle bit of cheat grass here, but it doesn't seem to be invasive. It grows mainly in the shady areas where the cattle like to loaf.


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## WJMartin

Just in case anyone has seen the wildfire going on in Guthrie, Oklahoma, it is burning just two miles from my farm. Thankfully we're in no danger. The main fuel for the fire.......cedars.


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## collegeboundgal

Take pictures!


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## Allen W

I was wondering how close that was to you. The one in Dewey county was about 6 miles west of me when they goy it shut down. There were cedars in it too, but a lot was just bone dry grass and high winds.

The one near WJMartin, unfortanantly some one has died in this wildfire http://www.news9.com/story/25425422/multiple-homes-lost-as-crews-battle-wild-fire-near-guthrie, .

This was is in my area http://www.news9.com/story/25425162/grass-fire-shuts-down-us-270-in-dewey-county not nearly the fire as is in logan county.


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## ycanchu2

Agmantoo and all others......just wondering if anybody has started clipping pastures yet? Does anybody wait until pollination occurs in order for the seed to be viable for natural reseeding? if clipped before pollination occurs it would seem that the seed would be benign.


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## gwithrow

I am waiting on tractor repair to begin following the cows...the rest of the untouched pastures can wait a little....it has been dry here which I think has slowed up growth..not sure if that is good or bad ....time will tell...


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## ycanchu2

ycanchu2 said:


> Agmantoo and all others......just wondering if anybody has started clipping pastures yet? Does anybody wait until pollination occurs in order for the seed to be viable for natural reseeding? if clipped before pollination occurs it would seem that the seed would be benign.


Also I want to mention that this year I have virtually NO buttercup in my pastures. I do have it in my alley ways where the grass stays picked short, but almost none in my paddocks. Any one else noticing that too?


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## agmantoo

I have been clipping pastures for the last two days. As my main forage is fescue I do not want the the grass to set seed and reach maturity as it will then cease to grow. Clipping will cause the grass to "stool out" and have better grazing as it remains green.

I have noticed that I have almost no buttercup this year. Not that I have had much in prior years. The forage plants have grown rapidly since the weather has warmed and I guess that growth has contributed to suppressing the buttercup.


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## c-parrish

Hey Agman,
I came across this thread today doing research for rotational grazing for horses. Unfortunately it is challenging to find details specific to horses...it seems like most people just give up. I made it through the first 5 pages of posts here. It seems you know a lot and I plan on trying to do this anyway. 

Here are the details: Location is Sandy, OR (East side of Portland). 3 adult horses. By energy level one is low impact, one medium impact, one high impact. All are barefoot (lowers impact some). At the end of this month I will be moving them onto a newly leased pasture for us that was last grazed by cattle early last fall.

Total land is approximately 12 acres split into 3 permanently fenced pastures. First area is ~3 acres with a couple deciduous trees in one corner. Second area is ~3 acres with a ~1/2 acre stand of deciduous trees. Third area is about 5-6 acres with a ~2 acres of that being heavily wooded with fir-type trees.

My goal is to use as little hay as possible throughout the year, and if/when it's necessary I intend on keeping the horses in the heavily wooded area. I suspect that the wet of winter will be when I may need to keep them off the grass, period. That is usually January-March, with a bit of variance some years.

Waiting to find out where each pasture's water source will be before planning the lanes. In the meantime, do you have any thoughts on this pursuit?


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## DEKE01

Here's an Australian on horse rotational grazing and pasture mgmt. I attended one of her lectures and found it very helpful. One of the key items on your amount of acreage is that you will most likely need a dry lot or sacrifice lot, something surfaced with sand, wood chips, or something similar. The horses spend much of their time in the dry lot and only get put in the individual paddocks for a few hours each day and only if the paddocks have grass ready for grazing and ground that is dry enough not to take too much damage. 

http://www.equiculture.com.au/equicentral%20system.html

I've seen a woman with 5 acres in a flood plain and she houses 6 horses using the dry lot method and 5 or 6 paddocks. Her pasture is beautiful with lots of excellent grass, but she rigidly controls the amount of time the horses have access to it.


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## c-parrish

Thanks for that. My challenge is that I do not own the property, and I live about 11-12 miles away, which would be a major (expensive) trip to make 2x a day in my 1 ton pickup. That said, the partner has an extra motorcycle, and I have my endorsement...I just haven't ridden in years! Perhaps I just need to buck up and use the motorcycle to go do daily barn chores.

That system did give me a couple ideas that I might talk to the landowner about. Like a long lane and only having one water source which I could have her put down in the trees. I have to get in touch with her before they finish setting everything up.


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## agmantoo

Ditto what DEKE01 stated above. I did assist a horse owner and using the sacrificial area as a loafing area for the animals and limiting the horses having access to the grazing would IMO be the only way to make rotational grazing work for horses.

Welcome to the site


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## am1too

Ironbutt said:


> Agmantoo a question for you?
> I was recently told not to drag my pastures as this atributed to the decline of dung beetles and that the beetles needed a large pat to keep the soil cool to promote their burrowing for reproduction. I know from your dung beetle post you were trying to find dung beetle larvae one time. That being a old thread what have you experienced?
> I Wonder if dragging hurt the population? If it caused a declined in the population? Or is it just as strong but not as noticeable?
> I would hate to lose the beetles, but I know from soil tests dragging has increased my pastures fertility, increased the vigor of my grass and elimated cows grazing around large patties. Your thoughts ????


My place hadn't seen a pastured or any domesticated animal for more than 15 years. The dung beetles love my dog dung. So where did they come from? The place was thick 20' tall brush.


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## am1too

WJMartin said:


> We are still so dry that I have very little grass in the pasture. Have had to split my small herd (9!) and put 4 on a neighbors 9 acres and so far they are still in grass, the 5 I have here, 3 cows + 2 calves, have mowed down all the grass close by. Moved them into the old pond bottom which has abundance of some flowering weed that the cows and horses love to eat when tender so have moved them there last night. When they saw that green stuff they ran right past me and my bucket of cubes, I'm not sure they even stopped eating to sleep.
> 
> We got a quarter inch of rain two days ago but we had so much wind that it was dry in an hour. Hoping we get some more rain over the weekend. Our weathermen only talk about the very slight chance of tornados, we figure they've turned saying the word, tornado, into a drinking game, Lord, knows everyone else around here has.


What have you planted in your pasture for brose or are you doing native grass?


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## agmantoo

I soon will be planting some pearl millet to help get the herd through the usual dry period of late July and August. At this time I am feeding Ky31 fescue mixed with volunteer orchard grass.

The dung beetles are probably from beetles released in Texas some years back. Pressure from commercial manufacturers forced the research to be shutdown as the research to use a natural means of fly control was a "conflict of interest"


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## ramiller5675

agmantoo said:


> I soon will be planting some pearl millet to help get the herd through the usual dry period of late July and August..........


How and where are you planting your millet?

Are you broadcasting it or drilling it? Into a seedbed or into your fescue? 

I've drilled wheat into my pastures in the fall for winter grazing and I've planted millet after wheat on some cropland for hay and grazing, but I've never drilled something like millet and/or sorghum-sudangrass into an existing pasture before.


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## agmantoo

ramiller5675 said:


> How and where are you planting your millet?
> *I have a paddock in what we refer to as "bottom land" that i will be planting. This is the foothills area or Piedmont section, where I live and along creeks we often have flat areas. This area flooded over Winter negatively impacting the fescue*. *Currently the herd is grazing what forage that is there off and I am waiting for the soil to warm some more.*
> Are you broadcasting it or drilling it? Into a seedbed or into your fescue?
> *I will be sod drilling* *into whatever the cattle leave.*
> I've drilled wheat into my pastures in the fall for winter grazing and I've planted millet after wheat on some cropland for hay and grazing, but I've never drilled something like millet and/or sorghum-sudangrass into an existing pasture before.


*Sorgum and sudangrass is commonly planted here following grain when additional feed is needed. I do not like the stems but that is just me.*


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## am1too

Calling the Oakies on what they plant for pasture. Pretty please.


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## ramiller5675

My pastures are either native grasses or bermuda grass, and I've never planted anything in a pasture except some winter wheat drilled into bermuda grass for winter grazing.

I've planted sorghum-sudangrass and millet in wheat fields after harvest for hay and grazing, but volunteer stands of crabgrass after wheat work just as good as long as it is fertilized.


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## agmantoo

Update on post #3098 where I showed how the sacrifice area looked where I fed hay for the last weeks coming out of Winter.

Today I clipped the tops off the few weeds that had volunteered as the grass is getting started. Regardless of how many times I have done this I am always awed at how the damaged areas respond.


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## am1too

ramiller5675 said:


> My pastures are either native grasses or bermuda grass, and I've never planted anything in a pasture except some winter wheat drilled into bermuda grass for winter grazing.
> 
> I've planted sorghum-sudangrass and millet in wheat fields after harvest for hay and grazing, but volunteer stands of crabgrass after wheat work just as good as long as it is fertilized.


Thank you very much.


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## randyandmegs

This being my first full year of managed grazing with both herds combined and moving all over the farm grazing. I have some questions and observations. Gwithrow and I have talked offline (we live a county apart in Western NC) and have some very similar issues. I have not used any wormers or fly treatments other than Ecto-phyte and we hardly have any dung beetles this year. The past years when we did use wormers and chemicals I had plenty in every Pat. In turn I think this is helping to cause our worst fly year I have ever seen. Their faces and eyes are covered in flies along with their backs. We have a pretty good mineral program and will be starting ACV pretty soon. Hardy any of my cattle have slicked off yet this year, even ones that have in the past. Spring calving is going great with all my heifers and calves. I had one still born per the Necropsy, just waiting on final results and liver mineral analysis. On the other hand we have the best diversity of grasses and legumes I have ever seen grazing that way. We have had lot of orchard, clover, vetch mixed in with the fescue and starting to see a lot of warm season forages like Bermuda and crab grass. In most areas fescue is not our primary forage and I happy about that to dilute the endophye . All but one cow are in great body condition With all the positive changes I have made I'm not understanding the results I'm seeing. Any suggestions?


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## Filson

This thread is just amazing. I can't wait to plan out a system for my new farm, using the tons of experience on this board. It's just amazing. Thanks for sharing everything you guys n' gals know!

Edit:

I suppose I should just ask and start working towards building and implementing a plan lol. This seems like the best place to ask too, instead of starting my own thread. Beware: Newbie questions coming your way. >.< I'll post a few pics at the end of the post for a visual reference.

So we just moved into our 60 acre farm, and there is a lot of work to do. This will be the first time either of us have raised beef, so while we have some idea now (thanks to this site, and a few books) of what we need to do, I was wondering if some of you could give us an idea of how we should set up a rotation program for our beef on our pasture. Before I go any further, I should point out that as of right now, our primary focus is to raise beef for family consumption. Depending on how many head of cattle we're able to raise on our little lot, and after we get some experience, I may consider raising a few to sell, but that is a thought very far down the road.

To me, the biggest issue we face is keeping a fresh supply of water. The land is sloped, and I remember reading agmantoo's post some time back in this thread that you should try to keep your cattle from traveling more than 1200' for water, 800' being preferred. Our pasture is roughly rectangular in shape, and is about 1200' long. It is also all sloped in one direction the long way. It just so happens that about right in the middle of this slope is a flat spot, that seems like an ideal spot to create a water source. This would allow the cattle to only walk up to around 600' maximum up hill to their water source, or downhill 600'. Does that seem reasonable to you guys? The flat spot sits right about dead center between the two wells.

Considering the pasture is sloped, should I try to keep the cattle from having to climb any more than needed, by setting up the sections across the slope, opposed to up/down, or should I not worry about it as much as I am, and just try to make each section just run to the single water source, in a bit of a pie-sliced-in-to-wedges idea?

Also, how would you recommend offering shelter in each rotational section? Do you have a way for the cattle to return to a central shelter place, or do you just let them spend the nights out in the field?

Lastly (and a little off topic of rotational grazing), if we were to get horses or goats, would it be a problem for them to hang out in the same areas with the steers, or should they be kept separate?

Thank you for your time!

The property slopes from the top left to bottom right corner.









Looking down at the house.









Looking up the field.









Looking north-ish across the field.


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## ramiller5675

Randyandmegs, if it was me, I think I would start out by treating them the same way I had treated them in the past to control worms and flies.

Besides that, is it drier than it's been before? Dung beetles need moist conditions, so if it's too dry the dung beetles just won't be around as much.

During one drought year, I had a horrible fly problem and ended up with a bunch of calves getting pinkeye, so I don't mess around anymore with not treating for flies if I can help it. I use back rubbers, Minerals with IGR, and I'll also use a cheap generic pour-on wormer (not sure if it does anything for the worms but it'll kill the flies for a month or so). 

Even though you say you have a "pretty good mineral program", is it different than the one you used to have? Maybe the new mineral program isn't as good as the old one.

What is the ACV supposed to do for you?


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> This being my first full year of managed grazing with both herds combined and moving all over the farm grazing. I have some questions and observations. Gwithrow and I have talked offline (we live a county apart in Western NC) and have some very similar issues. I have not used any wormers or fly treatments other than Ecto-phyte and we hardly have any dung beetles this year. The past years when we did use wormers and chemicals I had plenty in every Pat. In turn I think this is helping to cause our worst fly year I have ever seen. Their faces and eyes are covered in flies along with their backs. We have a pretty good mineral program and will be starting ACV pretty soon. Hardy any of my cattle have slicked off yet this year, even ones that have in the past. Spring calving is going great with all my heifers and calves. I had one still born per the Necropsy, just waiting on final results and liver mineral analysis. On the other hand we have the best diversity of grasses and legumes I have ever seen grazing that way. We have had lot of orchard, clover, vetch mixed in with the fescue and starting to see a lot of warm season forages like Bermuda and crab grass. In most areas fescue is not our primary forage and I happy about that to dilute the endophye . All but one cow are in great body condition With all the positive changes I have made I'm not understanding the results I'm seeing. Any suggestions?


 Would the severe cold this winter have killed them? I don't know. My cattle have slicked off really well now but I have started using Redmon sea salt again. It contains a whole host of trace minerals.


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## agmantoo

I too am having more flies than usual. I modified my homemade salt holder to have a "sock" treated with an insecticide to reduce the chance of pinkeye. This is my approach of not having to use ear tags. I will monitor this method and share my results.


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## agmantoo

The attached pic is the lane that was sacrificed in late winter to feed some hay. This pic is roughly 2 months from the time I started to salvage the mucked area. I used to fret over damaging already established pasture but I have come to realize that it will return and often better than before.


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## agmantoo

Not to bore those that visit with the recent frequent pics but I was asked to show how the rotational grazing was going. The area in the foreground was part of a paddock that I grazed in May. This is the longest paddock on the farm and it lasted the entire month. The herd was move to the paddock in the background and it will last only a week. As you may see I am clipping the grasses with a Bushhog to minimize the seed heads from irritating the animals eyes. I am experiencing some eye watering, mostly with calves, that may lead to pinkeye.


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## WJMartin

am1too, a couple of years ago I planted a lot of rye, clover and fescue, nothing came up but some rye. I had some more Bermuda sprigged last year and it is doing OK. Mostly I have native grasses with Sudan grass, crapgrass and weeds, lots of ragweed, I've finally gotten a sprayer and am headed out armed with 2,4,D, I've never sprayed anything but the weeds just keep getting thicker no matter how much I mow, they have got to go. My Lowlines have all slicked off and are looking good, the Dexters are some slick some wooly.


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## Allen W

WJMartin

The local elevator has been promoting a product called weedmaster, it's a 2,4-D and dicamba premix. The dicamba, a systematic herbicide that goes through the plant roots and all, gives it a little more punch on the tougher perennial weeds and dries them all up faster.


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## randyandmegs

WJmartin

What other types of "weeds" do you have other than ragweed? Cattle can be trained to eat ragweed. Some weeds are actually nutritious like crabgrass and pigweed. Check out the Livestock for landscapes website. I have gotten mine eating the multi-flora rose that I had been spraying for so many years with little actual long term success.
I am no longer a fan of and do not spray anything. As I have started tightening up my paddocks they are starting to stomp out my worst weed at this time horse nettle, and the cattle are eating the tops of some of it. If herbicides really work then why do we have to keep using them every year. Stolen quote but true.... Manage for what you want and not for what you don't want. I'm by no means an expert just learning still like most so of course this is just my opinion for what that's worth.


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## ramiller5675

Using herbicides is a management tool like fire, mowing, or grazing pressure. 

In the past I wasn't a big fan of controlling weeds with herbicides, but after over two years of drought, I was overran with weeds and no amount of mowing, ignoring, or trying to train cows to eat weeds was going to work. I'm not even sure how I would have went about managing for more grass instead of managing for less weeds (it makes a great soundbite, but how do you apply it in the real world?).

So last year, I reluctantly sprayed Weedmaster in the worst parts of my pastures, and it killed the weeds and let the grass actually grow. Once the grass was growing it kept the weeds from growing (would you call that managing for more grass, or managing for less weeds?).

I didn't spray other parts of my pasture, and the weeds still kept growing and the grass didn't grow as much even though we had more rain last summer than typical. 

This year I don't have as many weeds in the areas that I sprayed last year, so I didn't need to spray anything. I'd say that herbicides worked to control the weeds. If I have a weed problem in the future, I'll spray it again. If I was mowing to control weeds, I'd also probably have to come back in the future and mow again to control weeds.


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## agmantoo

I have a pesticide license and I do use the products, however sparingly. I am posting this to share a bit of information that is seldom acknowledged. Many agriculture chemicals have more uses than are described on the label as to its purpose. For example, 2-4-D is sold as a herbicide because that is the use where the chemical has the largest area of consumption and the most revenue for the producer. On the flip side and little know 2-4-D can be used as an insecticide. When 2-4-D is applied it will impact the insects on the land. I have not any ideas as to what it does to the microbes and earth worms as there is little data published nor do I see it promoted and sold as an insecticide. I do know that on acreage that I lease to others that I seldom see any visible life in the soil. I realize that water runoff is an issue and that a lot of effort is made mechanically to minimize the water loss. Since many weeds are becoming resistant/tolerant to Glyphosate "roundup" that soon there will be other crops known to be "2-4-D Resistant". What the consequences will be are to be determined!


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## Allen W

ramiller5675 said:


> Using herbicides is a management tool like fire, mowing, or grazing pressure.
> 
> In the past I wasn't a big fan of controlling weeds with herbicides, but after over two years of drought, I was overran with weeds and no amount of mowing, ignoring, or trying to train cows to eat weeds was going to work. I'm not even sure how I would have went about managing for more grass instead of managing for less weeds (it makes a great soundbite, but how do you apply it in the real world?).
> 
> So last year, I reluctantly sprayed Weedmaster in the worst parts of my pastures, and it killed the weeds and let the grass actually grow. Once the grass was growing it kept the weeds from growing (would you call that managing for more grass, or managing for less weeds?).
> 
> I didn't spray other parts of my pasture, and the weeds still kept growing and the grass didn't grow as much even though we had more rain last summer than typical.
> 
> This year I don't have as many weeds in the areas that I sprayed last year, so I didn't need to spray anything. I'd say that herbicides worked to control the weeds. If I have a weed problem in the future, I'll spray it again. If I was mowing to control weeds, I'd also probably have to come back in the future and mow again to control weeds.


Very good post ramiller, I agree that herbicide is another tool to use when necesaary. It seems like the drought has let the weeds gain a hand hold that they wouldn't have in a normal weather pattern. I've a lot of chinese elm showing up I haven't had in the past, also.

Our warm season native grasses and bermuda grass don't compete well with weeds shading them out, and often the weeds start growing before the grass does. With the warm season native grasses growing patern mowing can be conter productive to the stands over all health.


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## ycanchu2

Before I started Rotational Grazing I had lots of Thistle in a certain area and now into my third year the thistle has diminished dramatically, but we have had good growing conditions also.


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## Gabriel

Most of my "weeds" are only a problem on bare soil. I put weeds in " " because my cows will now eat most of them. (If they eat it, is it a weed?) So I manage in a way that promotes cover. That means a longer rest period than many recommend, but because the soil is still poor, that's what it takes here, right now. As I look at the spots that have improved the most I can tell that in the future the recovery times will get much shorter! :clap: I intend to remain understocked until that happens.


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## WJMartin

As many of you know I have declared war on the cedars, I have many bare batches in the fields where they have been removed and brush and weeds have taken over those spots. In the spots two years old, there is a lot of native grasses started. I also am hesitant to make my rotation paddocks as small as they should be because I'm changing cattle breed from horned to nonhorned and the horned steer and one cow are aggressive to the rest, they will be culled and eaten within the next year. 

So, yes, I think if I made the paddocks smaller the cattle could do a better job of getting rid of some of the weeds, ragweed, thistle, milk weed, black berries, small trees and some things I haven't identified. I read a study, sorry didn't save it, that said weeds take up 50% more nitrogen than grass, no wonder they grow faster. That fact alone was enough to get me to try spraying at least once as some of my fields are 50% weeds, the grass has little chance to get ahead. 

My fields are trying to recover from 10 years of letting the neighbor come in and cut for hay without putting anything back into them. He became angry when I said I was getting my own cattle and no more cutting, sneaked in and cut in July drought when I was gone, in some places a lot of grass just died. So, I have the perfect conditions for the weeds to flourish. 

My goal is to have enough grass for 10 cow/calf pairs + 2 - 4 steers for butcher, right now I barely have enough for 9 head so something has to change. Of course, regular rain would be a plus but I'm in Oklahoma, that isn't going to happen often.


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## farmguy

I rotationally graze for several years in central Mn. If you have any questions send me an E mail. Not an expert but have learned a few things, Farmguy.


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## am1too

WJMartin said:


> am1too, a couple of years ago I planted a lot of rye, clover and fescue, nothing came up but some rye. I had some more Bermuda sprigged last year and it is doing OK. Mostly I have native grasses with Sudan grass, crapgrass and weeds, lots of ragweed, I've finally gotten a sprayer and am headed out armed with 2,4,D, I've never sprayed anything but the weeds just keep getting thicker no matter how much I mow, they have got to go. My Lowlines have all slicked off and are looking good, the Dexters are some slick some wooly.


Have you ever thought of adding organic material to your property? I get compost and mulch material from the Norman compost facility. They told me a near by farmer gets an extra cutting of hay spreading the material at his convenience. The only thing I don't like about it is the trash content. I screen it before use.


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## WJMartin

am1too, I agree that adding organic material would be one of the best things I could do and am always on the look out for such. I did find square bale hay last year for $3 a bale and spread it out on 5 acres that was bare from cedar removal. That area is much improved this year. I also feed my hay in bare areas and have seen a lot of improvement in those spots too. 

So far I haven't found any place like you have in Norman but I'll check with Edmond to see if they would let me use theirs', different county so not hopeful. Would love to get a chipper large enough for these trees we are taking out, for now I have huge piles providing cover for the wildlife but as they are rotting away I see grass coming up and in a couple of years I should be able to break off most of the branches and just burn the logs.

On the plus side, it appears that the 2, 4, D has worked it's magic on the ragweed and cockleburs. I also noticed that the cattle have eaten the bloom buds off the thistles, not the sprayed ones, I didn't spray where the cattle are.


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## WJMartin

It's amazing what some rain will produce. I've been trying to post a pic of the good pasture with no luck but it is up to their bellies and they are happy girls. I think I have 3 more weeks worth of good stuff and then they get to vacation at the neighbors to eat down their pasture. I do have some really nice pasture areas, I just tend to see what needs improvement.


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## agmantoo

I have promoted and use organic material to build the soil on my place for the last ~20 years and benefited accordingly. More recently I came across and article where a Corn farmer was adding humic to his soils for record producing yields. Not knowing what humic is I did some research and I have found the articles very interesting. Couple this with the terra preta from South America I find both very encouraging that eventually we may stumble onto a means of growing massive crops in a very sustainable manner.


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## Gabriel

It's hard to believe that anything is more "sustainable" than mob grazing. Doesn't require heavy metal of any kind. It does require the self discipline to start with a lower stocking rate, but that pays off over time. Harness the sun!


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## agmantoo

Times remain good for beef producers. The number of views here have exceeded more than I ever expected. The Summer temps are climbing and I have some things that I need to do. As a result I will be taking a hiatus from the cattle forum. My time here has been one of learning and enjoyment. For that, I thank all those that have visited here. May success be with each of you.


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## Skip

Thank you so much Agmantoo for sharing over the years.


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## am1too

WJMartin said:


> am1too, I agree that adding organic material would be one of the best things I could do and am always on the look out for such. I did find square bale hay last year for $3 a bale and spread it out on 5 acres that was bare from cedar removal. That area is much improved this year. I also feed my hay in bare areas and have seen a lot of improvement in those spots too.
> 
> So far I haven't found any place like you have in Norman but I'll check with Edmond to see if they would let me use theirs', different county so not hopeful. Would love to get a chipper large enough for these trees we are taking out, for now I have huge piles providing cover for the wildlife but as they are rotting away I see grass coming up and in a couple of years I should be able to break off most of the branches and just burn the logs.
> 
> On the plus side, it appears that the 2, 4, D has worked it's magic on the ragweed and cockleburs. I also noticed that the cattle have eaten the bloom buds off the thistles, not the sprayed ones, I didn't spray where the cattle are.


You might check with the local city (Edmond) to see if you could get their yard waste and keep it out o the land fill. That what the compost guru did. When I drove a garbage truck the volume doubled in the warm months just from the grass cuttings. Land fill space is getting precious fast. If you're not to far it would save them tons of money.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> Times remain good for beef producers. The number of views here have exceeded more than I ever expected. The Summer temps are climbing and I have some things that I need to do. As a result I will be taking a hiatus from the cattle forum. My time here has been one of learning and enjoyment. For that, I thank all those that have visited here. May success be with each of you.


Many thanks for all your posts, come back when you can. 

As a reminder to the rest of us, life is cyclical. Good times are followed by hard times. Get your costs down now so that you not only have cash reserves for the hard times, your cost of production will be low enough that you can still profit when prices fall. 

Re: growing crops - http://www.brownsranch.us/

There's a grazing school in Hillsboro, Texas, taught by Jim Elizondo and Johann Zietsman on Aug 28-30. It's only $200! Much of the tab is picked up by the local NRCS, so if you're anywhere close I strongly recommend going. PM me for the contact email.


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## Gabriel

Just started reading "Man, Cattle & Veld" by Zeitsman. It's very good. Also just finished "How to not go broke ranching" by Walt Davis. Excellent, concise read.


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## randyandmegs

I guess I'm in good company! Reading the same plus Cows Eat Weeds.


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## ThunderLaneFarm

http://www.attainable-sustainable.net/reversing-desertification/

This is a very interesting video. Reversing desertification in the world by using rotational grazing. Ted talk.


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## am1too

WJMartin said:


> am1too, I agree that adding organic material would be one of the best things I could do and am always on the look out for such. I did find square bale hay last year for $3 a bale and spread it out on 5 acres that was bare from cedar removal. That area is much improved this year. I also feed my hay in bare areas and have seen a lot of improvement in those spots too.
> 
> So far I haven't found any place like you have in Norman but I'll check with Edmond to see if they would let me use theirs', different county so not hopeful. Would love to get a chipper large enough for these trees we are taking out, for now I have huge piles providing cover for the wildlife but as they are rotting away I see grass coming up and in a couple of years I should be able to break off most of the branches and just burn the logs.
> 
> On the plus side, it appears that the 2, 4, D has worked it's magic on the ragweed and cockleburs. I also noticed that the cattle have eaten the bloom buds off the thistles, not the sprayed ones, I didn't spray where the cattle are.


I don't live in Cleveland county where the compost yard is. People and even commercial business from outside of the county get material there.


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## am1too

agmantoo said:


> I have promoted and use organic material to build the soil on my place for the last ~20 years and benefited accordingly. More recently I came across and article where a Corn farmer was adding humic to his soils for record producing yields. Not knowing what humic is I did some research and I have found the articles very interesting. Couple this with the terra preta from South America I find both very encouraging that eventually we may stumble onto a means of growing massive crops in a very sustainable manner.


Municipalities are putting this great material in land fills daily. I drove a garbage truck.


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## gander801

I just got done reading this thread and I would like your advice on my new property I currently have 30 acres but the black line is the perimeter fence approximately 17 acres the blue box is a 4" free flowing well. Red circle will be the house and the grey box is septic drain field. Would you mind giving me any advice you can think of thank you and I enjoyed your thread. Oh yeah the perimeter fence is 6 strand electric HT fence.


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## agmantoo

gander801

Share with me what you are wanting to accomplish. Is this project for hobby or for profit? Are you planning on feeding hay or are you planning to be a grass fed sustaining operation? How much of the 30 acres are you allocating for the cattle? From the aerial view I cannot determine how much of the 30 acres are suitable at this time to provide pasture for forage. Are any of the acres "wet land"? Are you planning to produce calves for sale or to sell finished cattle? What will be your main forage grown? I am over committed with other tasks so my replies may be slow in coming but I will reply. PS...welcome to the site!


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## gander801

agmantoo said:


> gander801
> 
> Share with me what you are wanting to accomplish. Is this project for hobby or for profit? Are you planning on feeding hay or are you planning to be a grass fed sustaining operation? How much of the 30 acres are you allocating for the cattle? From the aerial view I cannot determine how much of the 30 acres are suitable at this time to provide pasture for forage. Are any of the acres "wet land"? Are you planning to produce calves for sale or to sell finished cattle? What will be your main forage grown? I am over committed with other tasks so my replies may be slow in coming but I will reply. PS...welcome to the site!


Thanks I a just starting out but I was someday hoping to make a profit. I plan on being grass fed operation when I can get there. The fenced in area is approx 20 acres the back side with the trees is a hardwood bottom land with a small (drainage) creek running through it. I fenced that area off just because. This area was sold to a developer prior to the housing crash and that is where the road came from. I plan to produce calves for sale and raise a couple for finished cows if I could sell them. Like I said I am just starting so I sure do appreciate any and all help you can give me. Just finished the perimeter fence on Wednesday. Thank you. I also sent you a PM.


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## Sunbee

I am on, um, page 91, and continuing. I haven't seen anyone with quite my sort of question yet. We are looking into getting a Dexter cow for dairy and her annual calf. Electric fence is not feasible on our eight acres--we'd have to put in a second meter and run it from the power company and that's just cost prohibitive. We are down in a N/S running canyon and have been told solar won't work. Our perimeter fence, such as it was, is nearly destroyed and needs to be rebuilt to discourage predators. We are borderline zone 3 and 4, and average 11" of precipitation a year. I'm not sure we have enough usable land--about half of it is not, I think--to graze year around but we'd like to keep our costs comparable to buying milk at the store. (The main reason to do this is to spoil our eldest--he wants to do 4-H dairy!) The soonest we could possibly buy a cow would be next spring--fence and shelter have to be built first--and more reasonably next autumn. So, the question: has anyone done rotational grazing on a picket? Could that work? I'll be asking plant questions later.


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## hdrockn

I would not tether for safety reasons....the purpose of solar is to keep the battery charged......you could buy a couple of lawn mower batteries to power a 12v fencer and rotate them to the house to put on a trickle charger and not have to worry about the solar panel.


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## agmantoo

gander801

I have attempted to give you 2 replies without them going through. Apparently I am now limited to the size of my responses. I have sent messages to 2 moderators and have no replies at this time.


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## gander801

Agmantoo

Thanks I'm getting started with 3 feeder calves. Now I just move them willy nilly with hot wire. Kind of a pain moving water and such every day but I think I can do this.


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## Phean

Hi, 

I really enjoyed spending last winter reading the rotational grazing thread. Thank you to everyone's contributions! Sadly, here in California we are still in a huge drought, so in the best conditions we get rain Nov-April so its been tough to rotate. 

Im looking at *Murray Greys* to cross with my angus crosses and I was wondering what line you found best for grass? I have a few cows and do not need to have black cattle since I sell mostly to friends. Im looking for grass finishing qualities, marbling, drought hardy, and sm-med frame size (ive got steep land and erosion issues) as well as the other standard qualities.Im looking at these bulls that are close, but since its AI I could ship. http://www.eaglesrun.com/cattle/herd...show/Hobo.html or Eagles Run Luxor 415U. http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salesemen.html. 

Thanks for any tips on what line of bull you used.

thank you again


----------



## am1too

Sunbee said:


> I am on, um, page 91, and continuing. I haven't seen anyone with quite my sort of question yet. We are looking into getting a Dexter cow for dairy and her annual calf. Electric fence is not feasible on our eight acres--we'd have to put in a second meter and run it from the power company and that's just cost prohibitive. We are down in a N/S running canyon and have been told solar won't work. Our perimeter fence, such as it was, is nearly destroyed and needs to be rebuilt to discourage predators. We are borderline zone 3 and 4, and average 11" of precipitation a year. I'm not sure we have enough usable land--about half of it is not, I think--to graze year around but we'd like to keep our costs comparable to buying milk at the store. (The main reason to do this is to spoil our eldest--he wants to do 4-H dairy!) The soonest we could possibly buy a cow would be next spring--fence and shelter have to be built first--and more reasonably next autumn. So, the question: has anyone done rotational grazing on a picket? Could that work? I'll be asking plant questions later.


Electric fence chargers do not draw that much juice. It is kinda like my neighbor who will not plant pasture because the neighbors goats will eat to the dirt.


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## lonecowhand

Welcome back, Agmantoo!
I was hoping you were only taking a leave of absence, not adios.I enjoyed reading this thread and couldn't wait for more. 

I was very curious as to how this drought affected your operation, did you eventually have to feed hay? Did you have to reduce herd size? 

Thanks for all the great advice and information,hope to put it to good use.


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## Gabriel

Sunbee said:


> I am on, um, page 91, and continuing. I haven't seen anyone with quite my sort of question yet. We are looking into getting a Dexter cow for dairy and her annual calf. Electric fence is not feasible on our eight acres--we'd have to put in a second meter and run it from the power company and that's just cost prohibitive. We are down in a N/S running canyon and have been told solar won't work. Our perimeter fence, such as it was, is nearly destroyed and needs to be rebuilt to discourage predators. We are borderline zone 3 and 4, and average 11" of precipitation a year. I'm not sure we have enough usable land--about half of it is not, I think--to graze year around but we'd like to keep our costs comparable to buying milk at the store. (The main reason to do this is to spoil our eldest--he wants to do 4-H dairy!) The soonest we could possibly buy a cow would be next spring--fence and shelter have to be built first--and more reasonably next autumn. So, the question: has anyone done rotational grazing on a picket? Could that work? I'll be asking plant questions later.


OK, you got me hooked. Why would you have to put in a second meter? You can run e-fencing for miles. Two different parcels of property? hdrockn is right, you could just rotate out two batteries if that's truly your only choice. At your low precip' rates, you don't want to tether, there's simply not that much grass available. You wouldn't have time to do much else!


----------



## Gabriel

Phean said:


> Hi,
> 
> I really enjoyed spending last winter reading the rotational grazing thread. Thank you to everyone's contributions! Sadly, here in California we are still in a huge drought, so in the best conditions we get rain Nov-April so its been tough to rotate.
> 
> Im looking at *Murray Greys* to cross with my angus crosses and I was wondering what line you found best for grass? I have a few cows and do not need to have black cattle since I sell mostly to friends. Im looking for grass finishing qualities, marbling, drought hardy, and sm-med frame size (ive got steep land and erosion issues) as well as the other standard qualities.Im looking at these bulls that are close, but since its AI I could ship. http://www.eaglesrun.com/cattle/herd...show/Hobo.html or Eagles Run Luxor 415U. http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salesemen.html.
> 
> Thanks for any tips on what line of bull you used.
> 
> thank you again


The pic' of Hobo isn't very good and Luxor is too young at the time of his photo for me to judge. I haven't had any experience with MG's, so won't say anything else about them.


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## WadeFisher

Sunbee said:


> I am on, um, page 91, and continuing. I haven't seen anyone with quite my sort of question yet. We are looking into getting a Dexter cow for dairy and her annual calf. Electric fence is not feasible on our eight acres--we'd have to put in a second meter and run it from the power company and that's just cost prohibitive. We are down in a N/S running canyon and have been told solar won't work. Our perimeter fence, such as it was, is nearly destroyed and needs to be rebuilt to discourage predators. We are borderline zone 3 and 4, and average 11" of precipitation a year. I'm not sure we have enough usable land--about half of it is not, I think--to graze year around but we'd like to keep our costs comparable to buying milk at the store. (The main reason to do this is to spoil our eldest--he wants to do 4-H dairy!) The soonest we could possibly buy a cow would be next spring--fence and shelter have to be built first--and more reasonably next autumn. So, the question: has anyone done rotational grazing on a picket? Could that work? I'll be asking plant questions later.


I can not believe you can't get solar to work. If you get enough sunlight for grass to grow you should be able to get enough for a solar charger. I've had them in some pretty wooded areas and can find somewhere to get enough sunlight to keep them going just fine.


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## WadeFisher

This one for me has been the best.
http://www.parmakusa.com/product_details.php?PId=4

I think it was only getting 3-4 hours of _direct_ sunshine a day. I had 6 acres fenced in the woods for summer pasture for some pigs.

If you get those ones with 'dinky' solar panel that is 4" square it would not keep up.


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## gander801

Ok so I got started on my rotational pasture. Question I'm not really getting the gate idea I'm about 5'10" tall and this is my first attempt at the gate. It seems too tight but when I take out the "gate" the wire is too low. What am I doing wrong? This is for several weened calves so the lane fence is only 30" high.


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## agmantoo

gander801

Your adjacent posts are too close to the "gate" Release the wire from each post ahead and behind the "gate". Your "gate post" is long enough for any cow to go under the wire.


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## gander801

Agmantoo

Thank you
Ok I've got the lane set up it was about 300' x30' wide. The cows seem to spend most of the time in this lane because the grass is about the same in the lane as the temp paddock. I have cut the lane down to around 100' I am able to move them into the paddock for awhile but they always end up in the lane. Now the lane is where their water and shade is at. Is there anything else I should do to get them in the paddock or will this just happen as the lane gets less desirable? Oh yeah great idea with the extension cord reel from Lowes bought 2 form there and now I am going to get rid of the more expensiv reel from Gallaghers. Will get 1 more to be able to set up a day ahead.


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## randyandmegs

gander801 said:


> Agmantoo
> 
> I am going to get rid of the more expensiv reel from Gallaghers.


Ganger801, send me a PM of what you want for all the Gallagher reels you have. I used the electrical cord reels the first 2 years but after my paddocks have gotten bigger and longer the time/labor cost spent with them is no longer worth it and the time saved with the geared reels has paid for themselves over time. I still use a few of the other electrical reels that have survived the winters but only to block the lane. I have 4 different brands of geared reels and the newest Gallagher model that locks onto the HT wire are by far the fastest and easiest for me to use, I don't know about longevity yet.


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## ycanchu2

gander801 said:


> Ok so I got started on my rotational pasture. Question I'm not really getting the gate idea I'm about 5'10" tall and this is my first attempt at the gate. It seems too tight but when I take out the "gate" the wire is too low. What am I doing wrong? This is for several weened calves so the lane fence is only 30" high.


What is the psi of your wire. If your using 200 psi, the wire will be hard to stretch. If you are using 170 preferably or 180 psi, the wire will have more give to it, for making temporary gates. Just sayin.


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## agmantoo

The following is slightly off topic but I feel I need to share as an experience with selling at the sale barn. 
I sold feeder calves this week. I had a calf that lost its tail from getting it stepped on. That calf weighed 315 pounds and other than no tail that was healed, it was the same as the lot where I grouped steers that weighed 330 pounds each. The no tail calf brought $1.35/lb or $425. The grouped intact calves brought $3.67/lb or $1212 each. One missing tail valued at $787 apparently.


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## Allen W

Agmantoo They raped you on that one. 

Order buyers usually don't have orders for bobtail calves, hard to put a load of them together.  With a strong local demand here I would have been surprised to see the calf backed off a $1.35 a lb.


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## gander801

ycanchu2 said:


> What is the psi of your wire. If your using 200 psi, the wire will be hard to stretch. If you are using 170 preferably or 180 psi, the wire will have more give to it, for making temporary gates. Just sayin.


I'm using the 200k line. Will have to look for the 170 or 180. Thanks.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> The following is slightly off topic but I feel I need to share as an experience with selling at the sale barn.
> I sold feeder calves this week. I had a calf that lost its tail from getting it stepped on. That calf weighed 315 pounds and other than no tail that was healed, it was the same as the lot where I grouped steers that weighed 330 pounds each. The no tail calf brought $1.35/lb or $425. The grouped intact calves brought $3.67/lb or $1212 each. One missing tail valued at $787 apparently.


 That is interesting to know. I have a bobtail heifer born last winter. I guess she will make a good freezer beef.


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## sassafras manor

agmantoo said:


> The following is slightly off topic but I feel I need to share as an experience with selling at the sale barn.
> I sold feeder calves this week. I had a calf that lost its tail from getting it stepped on. That calf weighed 315 pounds and other than no tail that was healed, it was the same as the lot where I grouped steers that weighed 330 pounds each. The no tail calf brought $1.35/lb or $425. The grouped intact calves brought $3.67/lb or $1212 each. One missing tail valued at $787 apparently.


 Agmantoo, if you don't mind sharing, what were the reasons for selling the calves at a lesser weight? Often in our area of the midwest producers push them into the 5 to 600 pound range before selling. For diffferent reasons we had several bobtail calves with over half of them missing half of thir ear flaps as well thanks in part to the extreme cold of the winter. Oh and thank you for your continued effort in this thread!


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## pfettig77

agmantoo, I noticed from some of your earlier posts that you are a deer hunter. I am a fairly avid bow and gun hunter and I was wondering how rotational grazing affects deer hunting. Although a deer can jump over an electric fence without batting an eye, they do like to take the path of least resistance and I wondered if all those fences would affect movement. Also, how do deer like your pastures compared to soybeans or corn?


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## randyandmegs

pfettig77 said:


> agmantoo, I noticed from some of your earlier posts that you are a deer hunter. I am a fairly avid bow and gun hunter and I was wondering how rotational grazing affects deer hunting. Although a deer can jump over an electric fence without batting an eye, they do like to take the path of least resistance and I wondered if all those fences would affect movement. Also, how do deer like your pastures compared to soybeans or corn?



Here is my experience with deer. Just like cows they learn quick not to touch the hot wire. As my forages have improved so has the deer health IMO. That is my 30' lane in one area close to the house.


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> The following is slightly off topic but I feel I need to share as an experience with selling at the sale barn.
> I sold feeder calves this week. I had a calf that lost its tail from getting it stepped on. That calf weighed 315 pounds and other than no tail that was healed, it was the same as the lot where I grouped steers that weighed 330 pounds each. The no tail calf brought $1.35/lb or $425. The grouped intact calves brought $3.67/lb or $1212 each. One missing tail valued at $787 apparently.


 Agmantoo,

How old were these calves? I just sold all my spring calves (June born) except 2 heifers, all were in the 3.20-3.60 range at 390-460 lbs. I'm wondering what you consider a good ADG on forage only to see how mine are comparing. Glad to see you back on the forum and hope you are doing well.


----------



## ycanchu2

sassafras manor said:


> Agmantoo, if you don't mind sharing, what were the reasons for selling the calves at a lesser weight? Often in our area of the midwest producers push them into the 5 to 600 pound range before selling. For diffferent reasons we had several bobtail calves with over half of them missing half of thir ear flaps as well thanks in part to the extreme cold of the winter. Oh and thank you for your continued effort in this thread!


This is why I would have sold them....To relieve grazing pressure, keeping the calves 3 or 4 more months to get another 100 or 200 per head would be an option, assuming prices stay where they are or higher. However, anything can happen and $1200. a hd is not anything to sneeze at.


----------



## agmantoo

sassafras manor said:


> Agmantoo, if you don't mind sharing, what were the reasons for selling the calves at a lesser weight? Often in our area of the midwest producers push them into the 5 to 600 pound range before selling. For diffferent reasons we had several bobtail calves with over half of them missing half of thir ear flaps as well thanks in part to the extreme cold of the winter. Oh and thank you for your continued effort in this thread!


I had no intention of selling the calves at the low weight that I did. As a matter of fact I passed up a ride for them just a week before I sold. The main contributor to selling was my reviewing of where the money was regarding weight. I could have kept the animals until they weighed 500+ but would not have gotten any more money or as much. With cold weather it was also a chance to give the cows a break from producing milk and to conserve forage. I believe that if you have something to sell and you get a profitable price offered then sell. I have friends that farm holding beans and corn now that they in hindsight regret not selling.


----------



## agmantoo

randyandmegs said:


> Agmantoo,
> 
> How old were these calves? I just sold all my spring calves (June born) except 2 heifers, all were in the 3.20-3.60 range at 390-460 lbs. I'm wondering what you consider a good ADG on forage only to see how mine are comparing. Glad to see you back on the forum and hope you are doing well.



I cannot give good data on daily gain. As I calve year round and the quality and quantity of feed fluctuates, the time and gain varies. Additionally my cost to produce a feeder calf is so low that it does really matter to me. I know that if a cow rebreeds within 45 to 60 days after calving that as long as I wean the current calf before the next calving all is OK. I am the sole source of looking after the herd and I avoid unnecessary handling of the herd. My current headcount of brood stock has risen to 113 head and trying to send that many animals, cows and calves, through the chute is trying. Catching, castrating, spraying navels, ear tagging, occasional doctoring, allocating forage, culling, selling along with plus my non-cow tasks and obligations are taxing at times.


----------



## agmantoo

pfettig77 said:


> agmantoo, I noticed from some of your earlier posts that you are a deer hunter. I am a fairly avid bow and gun hunter and I was wondering how rotational grazing affects deer hunting. Although a deer can jump over an electric fence without batting an eye, they do like to take the path of least resistance and I wondered if all those fences would affect movement. Also, how do deer like your pastures compared to soybeans or corn?


An avid deer is something that I am! I only gun hunt as I have cannot handle a bow due to an old injury. My observation is that when not frightened the deer will crawl under the lower wire and when startled they will jump the fence. Obviously there are a few exceptions. Movement does not seem impaired by the fences. Most of the deer I harvest live elsewhere and dine on my pastures, clover and some shade tree acorns. I put deer number 129 in the freezer yesterday. He was a healthy animal and I weighed him prior to processing. As far as deer for my area go, he weighed 185 lbs which is above the typical 160 to 175 range. Does here usually weigh 110 to 125 lbs.


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## pfettig77

agmantoo said:


> An avid deer is something that I am! I only gun hunt as I have cannot handle a bow due to an old injury. My observation is that when not frightened the deer will crawl under the lower wire and when startled they will jump the fence. Obviously there are a few exceptions. Movement does not seem impaired by the fences. Most of the deer I harvest live elsewhere and dine on my pastures, clover and some shade tree acorns. I put deer number 129 in the freezer yesterday. He was a healthy animal and I weighed him prior to processing. As far as deer for my area go, he weighed 185 lbs which is above the typical 160 to 175 range. Does here usually weigh 110 to 125 lbs.


185 is pretty decent even by Wisconsin standards! Nice. Just got done processing one myself. I found it interesting that you still eat venison with all that beef around. I suppose it would "eat" into your profits. If you have an old injury, couldn't you shoot crossbow?
I'm really glad to hear you say the fences don't hinder movement and that they like to eat the pasture - I really didn't want to have to compromise my favorite hobby.


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## agmantoo

With our recently discussions regarding stockpiling forage I made this pic this morning, Nov. 24, when I visited the beef farm. This is the appearance of the cool season grass (fescue) following what we refer to as cold weather (16F). The cattle eat this stored grass readily and it still retains plenty of nutrient. Notice there is little or no thatch. We had some rain in July and August and this short grazed paddock started growing in late August as the weather cooled.


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## blessingsfarms

Ok the rotational grazing is the way but what about a small guy ?
We are not going to make a living on this but don't need to have it 
eat are income either, close to retirement and using our property
for our family needs. 
We have 6 mini Nubian goats, one Dexter cow with calf, one Dexter
heifer now. Purpose is milk and meat. AI for Dexters, buck for goats.
Would like to have 3 to four Dexter cows in end.
Setup is 3 1/2 acres of pasture with 40 x 80 hog barn converted to
shop and holding area. 10 x 10 water pond central to sacrifice area 
20' wide two sides of barn. Acreage has always been used as barnyard
and been fescue, clover, grass mix last 10 years and chopped at about
6" height. 
Have read Stalin and lots of info. My brain is overloaded.
Any input would be great. 
I am also a avid deer hunter and have injuries that only allow use of
cross bow and gun now. Have never got a Ohio Big Buck bout last 
one was a great 8 point. Would rather eat the does anyway.


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## agmantoo

blessingsfarms

I do not see doing things differently be it with a large or small scale operation. I can, here in western NC, feed a cow weighing ~1050 lbs and her calf till marketed most years year round on 1.4 acres of managed forage. Based on your location determine your carrying capacity and adjust your animal size, count and needs to your acreage. To help with the ratio I can tell you that conventional producers here depend on hay from not less than 90 days upward to 120 days+ and still need 1 1/2+ acres per a beef breed (angus) for pasture. I feed grass only. Most conventional producers also add grain particularly during Winter. Based on recent published typical returns of profit per calf it is costing these conventional producers approximately 3.2 times as much to produce a marketable calf compared to my rotational farm.


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## agmantoo

As I have stated previously, I drag the manure in my paddocks to distribute the fertility. Recently I was told that dragging manure was wasted effort. I took a couple of pics a few days back to compare the results. If necessary I believe that I can get a some additional grazing if need be prior to Spring growth.
Here is a pic on the day I harrowed
]

Here is an adjacent paddock harrowed 14 days earlier. That is oak leaves in the foreground


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## Ironbutt

I too have been told that dragging pasture's will destroy dung beatle populations and contribute to soil compaction lessening the regrowth of grass. But I see after dragging that I have quicker regrowth of grass and less area's where the cows avoid eating grass around cow patties. As for the dung beetles I think they are still their as I see them in patties next to posts & trees where the drag doesn't impact them. The end results I go by is my pocket book, I'm using less money for fertilizer each year, since I started dragging cow patties.
Now if I could come up with a idea for the seasonal drought we have been having that would be great. Normally months of May & June no rain. Then this year September through November no rain. Last year it was May no rain. September & October no rain.


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## agmantoo

Ironbutt

I am in full agreement with your findings even including the drought periods. My conclusion for dealing with the weather is to amass forage in bale form when either hay is cheap or when there is an excess of pasture forage. I expect to accumulate the hay over time to the point that I have more than enough to get through short drought periods even to an extensive dry period for N.C. With feeder calf prices where they are I have seen some good deals on large metal hay buildings that look affordable. PS....with round hay bales priced where they are here I have concluded that fertilized baled hay is either free feed or fertilizer that is sold at below commercial fertilizer prices. I do not plan on owning hay equipment again regardless.


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## ycanchu2

I have not been dragging my pastures, maybe I should be. 
Most of the proponents against it is based on conventional continuous grazing where the cow patties are not as closely concentrated in an area as is rotationally grazed pastures.


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## Gabriel

agmantoo said:


> ....with round hay bales priced where they are here I have concluded that fertilized baled hay is either free feed or fertilizer that is sold at below commercial fertilizer prices. I do not plan on owning hay equipment again regardless.


Huge +1 to that. Jim Gerrish says that if hay is under $100 per ton, it's well worth it. 



> I have not been dragging my pastures, maybe I should be.
> Most of the proponents against it is based on conventional continuous grazing where the cow patties are not as closely concentrated in an area as is rotationally grazed pastures.


I've dragged a small amount, but not enough to claim that I performed a scientific test. I don't believe it's necessary, nor am I convinced that it pays. Those who do it have never been able to tell me what their real costs are. Sure, the benefits are obvious, but that logic is what every input salesman tells me. 

A few questions I try to ask myself before I take an action:


Does it mimic nature?
Will it pay?
Is it sustainable, or better yet, regenerative?
One thing I did see, as the dung beetle population grew, some of the manure pat's were disappearing overnight. I believe that if I had not just moved, their numbers would have continued to grow to the point that dragging would become unnecessary.


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## ycanchu2

Gabriel said:


> Huge +1 to that. Jim Gerrish says that if hay is under $100 per ton, it's well worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> I've dragged a small amount, but not enough to claim that I performed a scientific test. I don't believe it's necessary, nor am I convinced that it pays. Those who do it have never been able to tell me what their real costs are. Sure, the benefits are obvious, but that logic is what every input salesman tells me.
> 
> A few questions I try to ask myself before I take an action:
> 
> 
> Does it mimic nature?
> Will it pay?
> Is it sustainable, or better yet, regenerative?
> One thing I did see, as the dung beetle population grew, some of the manure pat's were disappearing overnight. I believe that if I had not just moved, their numbers would have continued to grow to the point that dragging would become unnecessary.


 Around here we have quiet a few wild turkeys and they will go thru and scratch up the manure piles .....in the more secluded parts of the farm. 

so I guess in some ways in dragging would mimic nature.

Will it pay? I guess it all in who you ask.

I may need to start dragging mine next year since I sold my baler this year and bought all my hay. And now that I have most of my electric fencing in place, I'll need something to do


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## MSFarm

How should I begin the process of looking into rotational grazing. I have read the posts above and on other sites, but it seems everyone's farm will be different. Anyone have time to walk a newbie through it?

Some prelim info. I have about 80 acre piece of property I currently use with about 55 acres of grazing area. one large pond in the back west portion of the property that is about 5 acre pond (give or take). I had the grass tested and it was about 12% protein and the Co-op has some suggestions on adding things to bring up nutritional value.

I'm all ears.


----------



## gwithrow

the ideal way would be to find someone near you who manages their livestock this way...go visit and see what they are doing...or get someone who does this to help you visualize your property divided up...where to put fencing, what kinds of fencing...and maybe most important of all, where to locate water and minerals, shelter and or shade....cows don't need much in the way of shelter where I live, but I always have a way to get the cows to a handling facility if necessary...by that I mean a way they can walk there and not need to be trailered...

your location is important since we all have to work with the climate and variables unique to where we live...

for us, visiting a farmer who had been doing rotational grazing for awhile was very helpful....even though we do it on a much much smaller scale...

I have also had super assistance from our county extension agent...who really understands the benefits of rotational grazing...he has helped us design handling facilities,,...that we could afford to build,....as well as the layout of pastures....our water was already in place and it is less than desirable as far as location in pastures, but we have managed to work around that.....good luck, perhaps someone on here is not too far from you and can help you think through where to begin......


----------



## ycanchu2

MSFarm said:


> How should I begin the process of looking into rotational grazing. I have read the posts above and on other sites, but it seems everyone's farm will be different. Anyone have time to walk a newbie through it?
> 
> Some prelim info. I have about 80 acre piece of property I currently use with about 55 acres of grazing area. one large pond in the back west portion of the property that is about 5 acre pond (give or take). I had the grass tested and it was about 12% protein and the Co-op has some suggestions on adding things to bring up nutritional value.
> 
> I'm all ears.


start at the beginning of this thread and start reading....it will take a while.


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## MSFarm

Thanks, Githrow and Ycanchu2. 

I have read the posts. Actually twice. Once in 2013 and again this year. I was hoping I could put up a picture of my land and let people help me design the layout. I was hoping not to put in a water system, but instead use the pond as the sloe water source. 

Thanks

Bobby.


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## gwithrow

a pic is ok, but there is nothing like walking the lay of the land...not sure about only using the pond...cows will stand in it...not as clean as a more protected water source...we use a creek, sometimes...but that is continuously being renewed...and shade is very important here in NC....my black cows need shelter from the extreme heat in the dead of summer....we use trees, not a manmade structure....

I think if you can post a picture there will be someone who will have suggestions...what I have found out is that in the end I had to just figure it out as we went along....I did learn a lot from seeing another set up, but I just have had to see how my property works with my cows....and of course the seasonal weather....


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## MSFarm

Attached is the land. The yellow highlight is the boundary. The square in the top corner (Northeast) is a current loading pin. I'm not stuck to its location as it needs repair anyway so if there are suggestions to move it to make it more optimal let me know. Also there is a pipeline that runs from the Southeast to Northwest. (you can see a clearing in the tress where the pipe is underground). It extends the entire way from the southeast corner to northwest corner. I think that's it. I would like for all paddocks to use the pond.


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## Gabriel

I recommend "Management Intensive Grazing" by Jim Gerrish. Lots more thoughts, but I'm tight on time right now.


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## ramiller5675

MSFarm, if you want to use your pond as a water source try going to the following links for some ideas, 

There's an example of a grazing system using lanes and a pond as a water source at: http://kerrcenter.com/publication/layout-design-grazing-systems/

There's an example of a floating fence watering access setup in a pond at:
http://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-3128.pdf


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## ycanchu2

MSFarm said:


> Attached is the land. The yellow highlight is the boundary. The square in the top corner (Northeast) is a current loading pin. I'm not stuck to its location as it needs repair anyway so if there are suggestions to move it to make it more optimal let me know. Also there is a pipeline that runs from the Southeast to Northwest. (you can see a clearing in the tress where the pipe is underground). It extends the entire way from the southeast corner to northwest corner. I think that's it. I would like for all paddocks to use the pond.


I'm assuming large black odd shaped spot on the left side is the pond. If so, here is an idea off the cuff.
Run a wire from the property line on the left side of the pond and one on the other side of the pond down about halfway...you might need to go out in the pond a few feet to contain the cattle on the right side. Make it(the fence) just far enough from the bank that you can drive a truck, tractor, etc along the side of the pond.
Bring each fence line up to the northern point of the pond, then make them parallel to each other at about 30 feet wide and take both lines straight to your loading facilities.
This will be your lane, alley way, common area etc. You will need to put in electric fence gates here and there so you can drive into the lane yourself.
From this alley way/lane, then go perpendicular with your polywire and step in posts with any size paddock you want making the temporary access to each paddock with lifting the wire over the pvc pipe so the cattle can walk under into the paddock.
On either side of the pond or both sides if feasible, try to take in a few trees inside your fence for shade.


----------



## Gravytrain

MSFarm said:


> Attached is the land. The yellow highlight is the boundary. The square in the top corner (Northeast) is a current loading pin. I'm not stuck to its location as it needs repair anyway so if there are suggestions to move it to make it more optimal let me know. Also there is a pipeline that runs from the Southeast to Northwest. (you can see a clearing in the tress where the pipe is underground). It extends the entire way from the southeast corner to northwest corner. I think that's it. I would like for all paddocks to use the pond.


Where is the high point on the property? Is a gravity fed watering system, that is drawn from the pond feasible?


----------



## MSFarm

Thanks for the responses. Also thanks for the links, some good information. The more I read the more I get the sense that the pond water may not be best. I'm not sure how I could get a water system in place with the pipeline that runs from the southeast to Northwest corner of the property. Open to all ideas, I just thought using the pond would be easiest. 

Gravytrain --- the land is mostly flat, the high point would be along the east boundaries. As you go from east to west about halfway it gets to the lowest point and then goes back up as you approach the pond. I don't think there is much slope though.

Ychanchu ---- I tried to draw what you wrote but had a hard time imagining how it looked. But if I got it right you were imagining, paddocks fencing going from east to west (rectangular shape), and ending just before the pond?


----------



## ycanchu2

MSFarm said:


> Thanks for the responses. Also thanks for the links, some good information. The more I read the more I get the sense that the pond water may not be best. I'm not sure how I could get a water system in place with the pipeline that runs from the southeast to Northwest corner of the property. Open to all ideas, I just thought using the pond would be easiest.
> 
> Gravytrain --- the land is mostly flat, the high point would be along the east boundaries. As you go from east to west about halfway it gets to the lowest point and then goes back up as you approach the pond. I don't think there is much slope though.
> 
> *Ychanchu ---- I tried to draw what you wrote but had a hard time imagining how it looked. But if I got it right you were imagining, paddocks fencing going from east to west (rectangular shape), and ending just before the pond?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, correct.
> The fence I suggested on the right side of the pond could take in the whole woods if you wanted to. However large you want your loafing area to be.
> If your water line crosses with the proposed lane/alley way you could easily put in a automatic waterer on one side or the other of the lane.
> Essentially you are creating one main artery for your cattle to get to and from water/shade/working pens etc and off that artery you create your paddocks.
> Hope this helps


----------



## Gravytrain

MSFarm said:


> Gravytrain --- the land is mostly flat, the high point would be along the east boundaries. As you go from east to west about halfway it gets to the lowest point and then goes back up as you approach the pond. I don't think there is much slope though.


What feeds the pond? Is there a stream or spring that feeds it or is it primarily runoff?


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## MSFarm

Thanks for all the replies. 

Gravytrain - there is no source for the pond other than runoff. 

Ycanchu2 - I think I have your idea of he fencing but not sure I grasp all of it. I may come back to it. For now I want to get some other questions answered while I continue to try different layouts.

New Questions
1) I got my soil test and it recommends lime (2 tons per acre) and Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Is it recommended to follow the suggestions from testing to the T, or is some stuff more important than others?

2) I have read about manure spreading. I assume that is talking about the manure the cows put on the ground. IS that done as soon as the cattle leave a paddock or some other time period? Any suggestions on cheap ways to do this? Right now my only equipment is a pickup truck.

3) When looking at a layout and leaving the lane open for cows to get into and to travel to water, I thought that the cows would constantly eat from the lane. Is this ok? Does it feat what i'm trying to do with rotational grazing? 

4) With the layout I have about 30% of my big rectangular paddocks do not have access to trees for shelter. IS this an issue? Should I build shelter in the lane? 

I have more questions but will start with these. 

Thanks


----------



## ycanchu2

MSFarm said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Gravytrain - there is no source for the pond other than runoff.
> 
> Ycanchu2 - I think I have your idea of he fencing but not sure I grasp all of it. I may come back to it. For now I want to get some other questions answered while I continue to try different layouts.
> 
> New Questions
> 1) I got my soil test and it recommends lime (2 tons per acre) and Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Is it recommended to follow the suggestions from testing to the T, or is some stuff more important than others?
> 
> 2) I have read about manure spreading. I assume that is talking about the manure the cows put on the ground. IS that done as soon as the cattle leave a paddock or some other time period? Any suggestions on cheap ways to do this? Right now my only equipment is a pickup truck.
> 
> 3) When looking at a layout and leaving the lane open for cows to get into and to travel to water, I thought that the cows would constantly eat from the lane. Is this ok? Does it feat what i'm trying to do with rotational grazing?
> 
> 4) With the layout I have about 30% of my big rectangular paddocks do not have access to trees for shelter. IS this an issue? Should I build shelter in the lane?
> 
> I have more questions but will start with these.
> 
> Thanks



I will try and answer 3 and 4. I haven't used any commercial fertilize in 7 years, but I'm not telling you not to, if you feel you need to bring some elements up, do so, but its something you should not have to keep doing.
Question 3)...Your cows will eat constantly from the lane, this will be sacrificed. it is only a very small portion of the farm, so don't worry about it. To me, it is a constant reminder of what my farm used to look like. And what 99% of all my neighbors farms DO look like all the time.
The only other alternative to lanes is having shade in every paddock and water also. 

Question 4)...your trees for shelter should be accessible via your lane, somewhere around your pond. If you have trees in some paddocks, good but have another place of shelter also. Your lane is like a interstate that goes thru your farm and takes you to water, shade, working pens...it can be narrow or it can be very wide in places also. Its not just a 30 ft. lane all over usually.


----------



## gwithrow

I would like to add that shade in the heat of summer is very important, in fact I think the cows suffer more from heat stress than from cold in winter...so creating a way for them to get out of the sun in the heat of the day is critical here for my black cows...when it is hot, they graze in the evening and early morning and lay low in the shade when it is high noon...in the winter time it is less critical, and the way we move the cows around sometimes means there is not any direct shade for them .......but if the temperature outside is even 65 that is not a problem, much different from 90.....


----------



## Gabriel

MSFarm said:


> 1) I got my soil test and it recommends lime (2 tons per acre) and Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Is it recommended to follow the suggestions from testing to the T, or is some stuff more important than others?
> *
> Acidulated fertilizer kills microbes and other soil critters. N is especially hard on the worms. Once you start doing it, you can hardly stop because you won't get growth (for a time) without it. *
> 
> 2) I have read about manure spreading. I assume that is talking about the manure the cows put on the ground. IS that done as soon as the cattle leave a paddock or some other time period? Any suggestions on cheap ways to do this? Right now my only equipment is a pickup truck.
> *
> The cheapest way... is to not do it.  Encourage dung beetles by leaving their food alone. If flies are a major problem, then use traps etc near water points. *
> 
> 4) With the layout I have about 30% of my big rectangular paddocks do not have access to trees for shelter. IS this an issue? Should I build shelter in the lane?


Yes, that's a problem as the others mentioned. Lanes aren't ideal, but they're better than the alternative. Don't let the "best" stop you from implementing "good enough".


----------



## CurrentWave

agmantoo said:


> These cattle are the result of culling hard those animals that cannot hold their body condition while lactating and remain in condition for breeding back.


This statement of yours got me thinking . . . . . .

Hello Agman - I've been reading this thread with interest. My goals are very different from being a cattle rancher, but still involve rotational grazing. 

Background:
I have 12 acres with most of it in tress and half of that is to dark so I'm in the process of thinning, removing brush, and opening it up; and will be seeding this spring. I live in Oregon (heavy winter rains). My driveway to the house and past it to the pump house runs about center of the property, with water and power - I plan on creating long rectangles from the driveway to the perimeter fence line(s). Bigger winter paddocks will be off the end of the road spiraling out, where I hope spreading the animals out will help the soggy land from traffic damage. Also there is a small seasonal creek the runs through this back area, cutting through each paddock. I'm just starting with electric twine fencing.

I need to create inputs for animal nutrition from my land, however my land won't be in good grass for a few years yet. Every year it improves, but to help with my winter feed bill I was wondering about getting a small breed, mid-range milking cow to supplement my 5 breeder pigs, 5 hair sheep and 20 or so chickens. Plus 3 cats and 2 dogs. I sell hair sheep lambs and KuneKune piglets; pick the best for breeding and keep some for us to eat. The focus is land improvement and feeding us clean food, selling is just another form of culling. All my animals are tough, heritage breeds.

My thinking is: milking cow will turn feed into much higher protein/fat that would really help during the cold, wet, poor grass months. I turn milk, when I can get it raw, into yogurt and add it to rye grass pellets along with some soaked peas, molasses and kelp. I'm trying to get away from feeding grains, and it's gone well for the last 3 years. When I first bought my land the rough brush fed everyone fairly well and they helped me clear it, but now as it gets cleared out my feed bill is getting out of hand. The grasses are thin.

*Is a cow of mid-range milk production - kept for milk, feasible in your opinion?*

My hope is to have lots of lush grasses as you do now, but I too am only one person with a teenage daughter. And my land is sloped, lumpy, with lots of dead and spindly trees that need removed. It's a work in progress. 

My problem with the idea of rotational grazing is how to break it down from big farms to my wee homestead. This discussion has really helped me to see how I can achieve it.

Thanks so much !


----------



## am1too

CurrentWave said:


> This statement of yours got me thinking . . . . . .
> 
> Hello Agman - I've been reading this thread with interest. My goals are very different from being a cattle rancher, but still involve rotational grazing.
> 
> Background:
> I have 12 acres with most of it in tress and half of that is to dark so I'm in the process of thinning, removing brush, and opening it up; and will be seeding this spring. I live in Oregon (heavy winter rains). My driveway to the house and past it to the pump house runs about center of the property, with water and power - I plan on creating long rectangles from the driveway to the perimeter fence line(s). Bigger winter paddocks will be off the end of the road spiraling out, where I hope spreading the animals out will help the soggy land from traffic damage. Also there is a small seasonal creek the runs through this back area, cutting through each paddock. I'm just starting with electric twine fencing.
> 
> I need to create inputs for animal nutrition from my land, however my land won't be in good grass for a few years yet. Every year it improves, but to help with my winter feed bill I was wondering about getting a small breed, mid-range milking cow to supplement my 5 breeder pigs, 5 hair sheep and 20 or so chickens. Plus 3 cats and 2 dogs. I sell hair sheep lambs and KuneKune piglets; pick the best for breeding and keep some for us to eat. The focus is land improvement and feeding us clean food, selling is just another form of culling. All my animals are tough, heritage breeds.
> 
> My thinking is: milking cow will turn feed into much higher protein/fat that would really help during the cold, wet, poor grass months. I turn milk, when I can get it raw, into yogurt and add it to rye grass pellets along with some soaked peas, molasses and kelp. I'm trying to get away from feeding grains, and it's gone well for the last 3 years. When I first bought my land the rough brush fed everyone fairly well and they helped me clear it, but now as it gets cleared out my feed bill is getting out of hand. The grasses are thin.
> 
> *Is a cow of mid-range milk production - kept for milk, feasible in your opinion?*
> 
> My hope is to have lots of lush grasses as you do now, but I too am only one person with a teenage daughter. And my land is sloped, lumpy, with lots of dead and spindly trees that need removed. It's a work in progress.
> 
> My problem with the idea of rotational grazing is how to break it down from big farms to my wee homestead. This discussion has really helped me to see how I can achieve it.
> 
> Thanks so much !


Personally I believe the first line of defense is soil quality.


----------



## CurrentWave

Yes that would be great, but the land around streams, rich bottom land is clear cut in these parts and taken by big Ag. Oregon soils are acidic, low in copper and my soil is clay on top of that.

What I could afford was not nice, rich or manured.

And I'm a city girl - so all this equipment and skills is slow coming.

This is where I'm at..... Clearing and burning (lots of poison oak), learning electric fencing, balanced nutrition for animals and home repairs. And I'm no spring chicken.

I have my animals spreading their fertilizer, I'm letting light back in, planting fruit trees, I have acorns from all the oaks for the pigs. I'm doing what I can with what I have.

I do not have the money to turn this land around fast, so slow it will have to be. And part of that plan is rotational grazing. Even if the grass isn't rich yet. But I'm wondering about feasibility of the small heritage breed milk cow... I'm wondering about rotational grazing such a animal..... Agmantoo has experience with smaller cattle breeds and year round grazing so I'm asking.


----------



## am1too

CurrentWave said:


> Yes that would be great, but the land around streams, rich bottom land is clear cut in these parts and taken by big Ag. Oregon soils are acidic, low in copper and my soil is clay on top of that.
> 
> What I could afford was not nice, rich or manured.
> 
> And I'm a city girl - so all this equipment and skills is slow coming.
> 
> This is where I'm at..... Clearing and burning (lots of poison oak), learning electric fencing, balanced nutrition for animals and home repairs. And I'm no spring chicken.
> 
> I have my animals spreading their fertilizer, I'm letting light back in, planting fruit trees, I have acorns from all the oaks for the pigs. I'm doing what I can with what I have.
> 
> I do not have the money to turn this land around fast, so slow it will have to be. And part of that plan is rotational grazing. Even if the grass isn't rich yet. But I'm wondering about feasibility of the small heritage breed milk cow... I'm wondering about rotational grazing such a animal..... Agmantoo has experience with smaller cattle breeds and year round grazing so I'm asking.


On the coast side or the east side? How big is the closest town and what is the distance?


----------



## gwithrow

so we are moving through our stockpiled fescue/other grasses and doing pretty well so far...the cows seem very satisfied and the calves are growing well like weeds.....but since this is our fist winter with stockpiled forages, I am wondering how short to let them graze?....

this time in years past we were well into hay and protein tubs....I am hoping to have what they are grazing now all recovered by mid spring....but I also want to make this stockpile last as long as I can...so how short is too short?....


----------



## agmantoo

gwithrow

IMO we have about 40 more days to feed stockpiled grass. I would let/force the cattle to eat down to about 2 inches. If you look at areas fed 2 to 3 weeks ago are you seeing a hint of new green? That hint of green is what I want to see as that will be the future first new growth. If things go well you should see the first new Spring growth 10 to 14 days prior than in previous years. Did you observe that your stockpiled grass continued to grow up to 2 weeks longer in the Fall than you may have observed prior to your going to rotational grazing?


----------



## gwithrow

yes, and yes,....I am an avid grass watcher and for sure we are seeing greening....we have had pretty good rain, and the cows seem more satisfied....I have moved fairly slowly with the rotations....but like you we are down to counting the days of grass left....so I think that I will make the paddocks a bit smaller and the time on them maybe a little longer....if that rye gets going where it was sown we should be all right....even if we get some cold weather and ice I think we will still be all right....I have been frost seeding clover in new/ bare spots...at this time of year I am usually the optomist...


----------



## medski

Agmantoo: I am new here and have read most of this in the last week and think it is great! I live in south west Michigan and just purchased 34 acres to go with my existing 64 acres. I am going into my dream of producing grass fed beef! I have been tree farming my land for 30 plus years. The land I purchased is mostly tillable farm land and has been corn and soybean rotated a long time. The land was last put into corn and combined with tall stalks left. I purchased the land two days before Xmas and we had mild weather with no snow so I mowed the stalks with a brush hog mower and cleared a lot of autumn olive and pruned the tillable boundries and gained about five acres, some of the land is woods with a trout stream running thru it giving me about 30 acres or so total grazing land total for my whole farm. After reading this I probably would have broad cast seeded the corn then mowed! But I have mowed it so my question is should I no till, get growth , then broad cast? Any suggestions?


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## medski

Already amazed at looks I get when I talk about using your approach to grazing up here! They look at me at first like I am talking about rocket science but are really good at listening to my plan and future development. I must be doing an ok job at explain it because they seem to get. Excited to learn I may qualify for funds to do my fencing!


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## randyandmegs

Medski I saw this and thought of your post 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=rhDq_VBhMWg

Randy
Columbus NC


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## medski

I am planning to practice rotational grazing and want to get my best bang for buck. I watched the video and get the concept, thanks! I hope to start grazing spring of 2016 and want to get everything set up right here this year. I would appreciate any advice with planting the corn stuble! Have great soil and funds I just want to start out with right approach! I did the google thing and I have 40 plus acres grazing available to start and more I can develop. I will start with 10 to 15 cow/ calf pairs and grow to what the land can handle from there. Thanks for any input you have all is very appreciated! I have read most this site and have my head around most of the basics. I have barn,electric, and well water also gullys are too steep to graze or get water from trout stream , 100 yards almost vertical drop. Too bad because I own almost a mile of it! But it is great hunting and fishing and very pleasant to the eye and very private. I can give more info as needed.


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## agmantoo

I do not like notilled for establishing a pasture. The barren areas between the drill rows take a long time to fill in and the fill in is often weeds since I rarely use herbicides. However, I do own and use a notill drill. Broadcasting seed is my preferred method of establishing pasture. To compensate for the notill short comings I have a Herd brand seeder that I use on an ATV to overseed the notill drilled paddocks during optimum seasons with both grasses and legumes. Getting a balance between grasses and clovers is more difficult than it may seem.


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## stockdogcompany

medski,

Are you on really sandy stuff, western allegan and ottawa county kind of soils? If so, you may need to build some organic matter into the converted farm land.

You may have to spread chicken litter, pack barn manure, or rolled out hay strip grazed in place to kick start things. If you get the kind of summer we had in 2011 or 2012 new grass seedlings on west Michigan dune sand farm land will roast off pretty quick. You may be wise to broadcast a really diverse cover crop mix as well as grass and graze it off to build carbon. Think 9 or 10 seed mixes with cool crop broad leafs and clovers as well as warm season stuff. Sunflowers, millet, rape, buckwheat, clovers, radishes, etc. Much better drought resistance this way. I've had to bring back farmed down sand and clay soils, and a big mix of plants and intensive grazing have been the key. Grazing someone else's dry cattle or dairy heifers the first couple of years until a sward of high energy grasses are established would be a little easier than trying to manage the narrow window of grass finishing available in your area.

As much steep stuff as you have, and as much snow as your are likely to get, have you considered hair sheep instead or cattle? The autumn olive is great feed for hair sheep, and those steep hills become profitable feed as well as beautiful vistas. 

Anyway you go, building organic matter with managed grazing will really boost productivity and drought resistance.


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## medski

Agmantoo 
So do you think I should broadcast seed before notill then? The ph is 6.5 and I am on sandy loam soil! Typically seed 20 pds/ acre. So maybe 15pds/acre notill and 15pds/acre broadcast before would be a better combo? Checking into turkey litter soon. We have many farms close by. Do you worry a bought what has been fed to the chickens or turkeys? Growth hormones and such? I will be raising beef for profit! I don't know anything about goats or sheep. What do you think? Any advice or comments are helpful! I will setting up a layout for the property for rotational grazing and would appreciate any advice on that also. Thanks everything you have done on this so far is amazing and I appreciate all of the input and knowledge/experience posted here by everyone ! Thanks!


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## medski

I am also checking into seed varieties that will do well here for a good pasture mix, especially fescue. I have or can get all of the equipment to do everything. Funny I have an 02 foreman like yours. That thing is a work horse!


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## agmantoo

medski

Look in the side ditches and the shoulders of the roads at what type of grass is thriving. Then determine is that type of grass is palatable to cattle and if it will stockpile? For me nothing comes close to old common Ky31 endophyte infested fescue. It will perform here year after year, remains long lived and holds nutrient levels when stockpile better than anything that I am aware. The cattle seem to thrive on the fescue and never tire of eating it. It is Feb 5 and I have not fed any hay and the cattle are holding condition and the current calves are growing. Areas where I fed recently are starting to rebound with not less than 2 inches of new growth within the last 2 weeks. Night temps are in the teens to the low twenties with daytime temps in the mid forties F. I no longer concern myself with the endophyte as the herd has accustomed itself to this diet. I lowered my marketing weights as that seemed where the best prices existed in Dec. and Jan. Even with no supplemental creep feed my calf prices were some of the highest at the auction where I market them. My good steer calves brought up to $3.67/lb off this regimen.


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## medski

Stock dog
I am in newaygo county and have pretty good soil to start with.


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## medski

Agmantoo 
Wow nice price! I know cattle are high right now! I look at fields around here and can see corn and soybean Stubble sticking out of the snow. My commonsense tells me I should be able to stockpile and get thru winter. We will see! I know you like fescue and it should grow well here since it does well in cold weather. That corn stubble in my field was pretty heavy, so it should hold good moisture for the new seeding.It mowed down to a nice mulch. Can't wait to get it planted and start on the fencing. -4f here this morn we still have a foot of snow and the ground is froze.


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## MSFarm

I'm getting my fencing in and although it has changed I think this will be the best way for me to start. I was hoping folks can take a look at the pic and let me know of any suggestion. The biggest change is that I won't have a lane, but instead I will start with 4 big paddocks separated by permanent fencing. I'm adding the permanent fencing in yellow to create the paddocks. This will create 2 rectangle paddocks with 10 acres each, one 8 acre tract the runs along the railroad track and then the 7 grazing acre tract that includes all the trees. Three tracts will have access to the pond and the one tract that doesn't have pond access I am putting in an automatic waterer. It Is shown as the hollow circle on the picture (the filled in circle was the old position but I moved it to possibly later put another fence in to split that pasture even more and then have the water serve both of those areas (that thought can be seen with the blue line coming down from the hollow circle, but that's to come later). 

The current proposal would put me on about a week rotation, which I think is a good start as I can learn and make mistakes, and then I will bring in temporary fencing to do even more rotations/less grazing time. Any thoughts, etc? Since I'm using permanent fencing, any ideas on where the gates should be for the new yellow fencing?

I hope to have the fencing completed by March 1.. As far as getting the pasture ready I am about to put 1 ton of lime and cut two distinctive areas (3 to 4 acres each) of sage grass. Any ideas on how to get that sage grass area to go away? Do I need to reseed it, etc? The farm service guy suggested burning but that seems like a big undertaking. 

Also I didn't know what type of grass I had, but I found out it has good coverage and mostly Bermuda and fescue. Any thoughts on the grass and what's needed or how to help it excel?

Lastly I'm mostly interested in the stockpiling which is to come later in the year, but at what point do you start to stockpile and what percentage of your farm is used to stockpile verse what the cows are eating in the fall?


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## stockdogcompany

MS,

Frost seeding legumes and managing post grazed height to let it get going is a cheap way to get nitrogen and support existing species of grass. Unrolling purchased hay grown of local non improved stuff like Agman suggests for a seeding, in winter or drought months will add valuable organic matter, seed, and nutrients twice, once to stock and once to soil.

That fescue is a stockpilers dream. You will need at least some decent percentage of your pasture that you can stop grazing a few weeks before fall flush occurs in your area. I like to have some I'm off of at least 3 weeks before the fall rains and cool down make the fescue pop. This means you can't be stocked to utilize 100% of your grass during the growing season. You have to have some grass you can't keep up with during spring and fall flush, and not lose your mind and bush hog it because the neighbors say so.

Sage grass? If you mean the plant called broom sedge(no argument on the common name, just want to make sure we are talking the same thing) in the areas I've worked, you can buy a reel or two, some step ins and poly wire and do small breaks right away you'll find that the lime you add and the organic matter and trample down will eliminate it quickly, as long as you don't hay it off and feed hay off site. If you have to feed hay, choose the areas that had the most broom sedge in them to use as feeding sites and build the organic matter there first! I've always been able to eliminate or greatly reduce broom sedge after a few years of intensive grazing and rolling and feeding hay on heavy broom sedge areas.

Burning broom sedge off is a terrible idea. It's there because of low organic matter in your soil. Don't put your carbon in the air for a neighbor to capture with his grass or timber crop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you really want to have fun, dig up a 12" soil profile in a few places on your farm, and take a picture. Do that in the same places at the same time of year for the next five years. You won't believe what happens. Count the earth worms in each block while your at it.


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## MSFarm

I did not attach a picture so here it is attached this time. The black line is permanent perimeter barb wire fence. The yellow will be interior permanent barb wire fencing. Location of gates is needed. see below for other info. 

I'm getting my fencing in and although it has changed I think this will be the best way for me to start. I was hoping folks can take a look at the pic and let me know of any suggestion. The biggest change is that I won't have a lane, but instead I will start with 4 big paddocks separated by permanent fencing. I'm adding the permanent fencing in yellow to create the paddocks. This will create 2 rectangle paddocks with 10 acres each, one 8 acre tract the runs along the railroad track and then the 7 grazing acre tract that includes all the trees. Three tracts will have access to the pond and the one tract that doesn't have pond access I am putting in an automatic waterer. It Is shown as the hollow circle on the picture (the filled in circle was the old position but I moved it to possibly later put another fence in to split that pasture even more and then have the water serve both of those areas (that thought can be seen with the blue line coming down from the hollow circle, but that's to come later). 

The current proposal would put me on about a week rotation, which I think is a good start as I can learn and make mistakes, and then I will bring in temporary fencing to do even more rotations/less grazing time. Any thoughts, etc? Since I'm using permanent fencing, any ideas on where the gates should be for the new yellow fencing?

I hope to have the fencing completed by March 1.. As far as getting the pasture ready I am about to put 1 ton of lime and cut two distinctive areas (3 to 4 acres each) of sage grass. Any ideas on how to get that sage grass area to go away? Do I need to reseed it, etc? The farm service guy suggested burning but that seems like a big undertaking. 

Also I didn't know what type of grass I had, but I found out it has good coverage and mostly Bermuda and fescue. Any thoughts on the grass and what's needed or how to help it excel?

Lastly I'm mostly interested in the stockpiling which is to come later in the year, but at what point do you start to stockpile and what percentage of your farm is used to stockpile verse what the cows are eating in the fall?


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## MSFarm

Stockdogcompany - Thanks for the info. I was not using the placing my hay a am currently feeding on the brown sedge (I'm sure you are right on what its called) but will do that right away. It is pretty tall as it stands now. Should I bush hog is first or just place the hay there and see if they trample it? 

When you mention the reel, step-ins and polywire were you saying fence the cows in that area and make them eat it?


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## gwithrow

there is not much food value in the broom sedge....I like to see where it is since that tells me the areas that need organic matter...good places to feed out hay...and fertilize...oh, that would be letting the cows fertilize for me....it will be trampled down as they eat the hay there...

the reels and polywire allow you to 'force' the cows to stay in a smaller area, eat what is there and stomp on the rest....whether it is hay or stockpiled grasses...then they move on...you can go behind them and cut if you want...I don't.....they will fertilize more evenly if they are confined to a smaller area, then moved...I move cows daily....or every two days when feeding hay.....

sometimes I put out seed in front of where they will be, since they walk that in while visiting a paddock....at this time of the year, clover frost seeded ahead of the cows will work well....


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## stockdogcompany

^ what he said. Exactly. Smashed down uneaten broom sedge will help hold moisture and break down into carbon.

I also like throwing a few pounds of clover, trefoil, and maybe even radish, rape or turnip seed down in the worst areas. Really helps build carbon and break loose the soil nutrients. This time of year you can buy the 3-10 lb bags of over stock"deer plot" seed for 50 cents to a dollar a pound from the local farm and hunting stores. Handy to have a 3 pound bag and chuck it out on a half acre plot before you roll bales or put up wire.


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## medski

Great thread! I have read all and will keep reading and stay in touch! Would love to hear some results from anyone rotational grazing where I live. Michigan

Some questions for Michiganders

How far into the winter have you made it with out feeding hay?

Does snow or temp. Inhibit not stockpiling and winter grazing, not wanting to be out in cold and not wanting to improvise 
Temporary fencing etc.

Seems to me a thick tall stockpile would be attractive to cows, even if they have to move snow to get to it.

Any input on this subject welcome!

Agmantoo you have done a great patient job mentoring and teaching! Applause! 

Hope everyone continues sharing their experience and learning!


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## stockdogcompany

Hey Medski,

I've been on and off grazing farms in half a dozen Michigan counties within the past 2 decades as a consultant, service rep, or running stuff of my own and have some good friends with stock living outside in other parts of Michigan as well.

Well fed and adapted cows don't care about cold, except that nasty icy, wet 29-35 degree rain and wet snow. Then a shelter belt or barn is handy. Or high winds. Then a wind break is handy. Piled up corn stalk bales, pine trees, piled up bark chip mounds, utility poles and tin or tarps and cables. Locally available stuff, cost, and your imagination are the only limits. 

Any day there is less than 8-10" of loose or lightly crusted snow, your cows will dig and eat upright, dense stockpile as long as it hasn't been flattend by ice storms or multiple wet snow and melt off cycles. Hard crust and belly high snow is a no go. This is not for light stockers, lactating cows or high gaining finishers!


Putting step in posts into frozen ground: Get a cordless drill, a very long shanked auger bit(so you don't have to bend over, worth the $35 or $40 bucks) 10-20% smaller in drill diameter than your step in posts spike, and a rubber mallet to tap them in modestly. Whack plastic hard at 25 below and you won't have a post. The step ins shear off if you step on them very hard, as well.

I favor colored post in the winter. I often spray paint my white posts with various color stripes to make them stand out against snow in winter. Different color bands because be darned if blue or red alone won't manage to blend in the the clear sky or sunset colors at least once or twice a day. Down right embarrassing to walk or drive right through a poly break wire. Makes me cuss a great deal to if its at 10K volts.

You should have some of the 48" tall step in's for winter if you are grazing under snow, or you'll soon have step overs!! I often will lay out potential breaks before snow flies and put in a few pasture pro or other tall, flexible self insulated semi permanents so I can find my way across the good stockpile under the snow and plug the rest of the step in's into line.

Very deep, very dry snow is self insulating from electric current. If you get at or below zero and get fine grainy snow on hard frozen ground you won't have a return path for current. You will need to run a second wire 6-8" below your hot wire hooked to your ground to zap cows. Commonly known as a pos/neg system. Done in arid deserts as well as deep, dry snowy places.

You are in the deep snow belt. You won't be able to use stockpile as effectively as a lot of other folks. Buy you still can use it. Have your gear ready and take advantage of every day of not feeding hay and hauling manure you can.

You have some awesome dairy graziers and a few noted long term cow/calf men who rotationally graze not too far from you. Check out the regional farm papers or call the dairy cooperative folks to figure out who some of those folks are and go visit them!

Keep a keen eye and measure everything. Scales, weigh tapes, feed inventories, body condition scores and accurate data about your own results matter the most.


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## ycanchu2

stockdogcompany:

What are your thoughts about dragging the manure piles. Is it worth the effort ever? 
Some say yes, some say no. I really don't know. Most usually during the year I don't mess with it. But I could see it being possibly beneficial here as soon as grass starts growing here in a few weeks....as to let everything get growing as fast as possible.
For the most part during the winter I see the piles as just insulators of the ground where earthworms can work under with some protection from the cold.


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## stockdogcompany

A good time to run your own trial.......drag a plot and don't drag an identical plot. Mark them with t-posts, etc. Measure results.........time of green up, plant density in a hula hoop randomly dropped in each plot, new germination of a desired species( I get a bang at the number of clover seedlings that erupt out of a good pile of manure!) rising plate meter measurements and the estimated differences in productivity. I'd like to know your results!

I tend to always do less with fuel and tractors, mostly because I hate fuel and tractors. But there may be a return. I personally only scatter heavy, heavy concentrations from an outside bedded pack or chip piles under shelter belts, etc. I tend to use more/different animals to do the work and then sell the pounds. Probably would turn pigs or chickens or turkeys or venomous composting ducks loose, anything that would sell good in the area, work with available infrastructure, and do the kinda work I need done with the least amount of labor and investment. Might even rent the neighbors Labrador retriever who loves to roll in the patties!


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## medski

Stockdogcompany
What company do you consult/rep for?


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## stockdogcompany

I own a half dozen small enterprises. I do grazing and stock management consulting independently, as well as follow my own other interests. I have worked for a small regional company and a large national brand, and after seeing the wizard behind the curtain, I left Oz to help people get results for their operation, and not for the input sellers if there wasn't a return for the producer. I have signed enough disclosure statements that I can't mention names and give my opinions of them together. And sometimes I like to give a strong opinion and not get my tail in a crack!!!!


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## agmantoo

MSFarm said:


> I did not attach a picture so here it is attached this time. The black line is permanent perimeter barb wire fence. *The yellow will be interior permanent barb wire fencing*. Location of gates is needed. see below for other info.
> 
> I'm getting my fencing in and although it has changed I think this will be the best way for me to start. I was hoping folks can take a look at the pic and let me know of any suggestion. The biggest change is that I won't have a lane, but instead I will start with 4 big paddocks separated by permanent fencing. I'm adding the permanent fencing in yellow to create the paddocks. This will create 2 rectangle paddocks with 10 acres each, one 8 acre tract the runs along the railroad track and then the 7 grazing acre tract that includes all the trees. Three tracts will have access to the pond and the one tract that doesn't have pond access I am putting in an automatic waterer. It Is shown as the hollow circle on the picture (the filled in circle was the old position but I moved it to possibly later put another fence in to split that pasture even more and then have the water serve both of those areas (that thought can be seen with the blue line coming down from the hollow circle, but that's to come later).
> 
> The current proposal would put me on about a week rotation, which I think is a good start as I can learn and make mistakes, and then I will bring in temporary fencing to do even more rotations/less grazing time. Any thoughts, etc? Since I'm using permanent fencing, any ideas on where the gates should be for the new yellow fencing?
> 
> I hope to have the fencing completed by March 1.. As far as getting the pasture ready I am about to put 1 ton of lime and cut two distinctive areas (3 to 4 acres each) of sage grass. Any ideas on how to get that sage grass area to go away? Do I need to reseed it, etc? The farm service guy suggested burning but that seems like a big undertaking.
> 
> Also I didn't know what type of grass I had, but I found out it has good coverage and mostly Bermuda and fescue. Any thoughts on the grass and what's needed or how to help it excel?
> 
> Lastly I'm mostly interested in the stockpiling which is to come later in the year, but at what point do you start to stockpile and what percentage of your farm is used to stockpile verse what the cows are eating in the fall?


I am confused as the the type of internal barb wire fence you plan to install. Please elaborate.


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## MSFarm

Agmantoo - I was thinking of a three or four strand barbwire fence with metal post. 
What would you do if you wanted to get rotational grazing going on my farm as far as layout? I have a pond and can put an automatic waterer close to the street if needed. I am getting a grant for my fence so I think i may be limited to "permanent" interior fencing. See attached image. Location of gates is also something a struggle with. The black perimeter fence is already in place and looks pretty good, so I can focus on dividing up the interior. 


Stockdogcompany - I put the cows feed on the sedge grass so i will see how well they stomp in down.


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## agmantoo

MSFarm

I absolutely would not put anything permanent for a fence on the interior. I would want a quality perimeter fence however. You can get by on the interior with something temporary. Over time you can rearrange this temporary fence to match your place without a lot of effort to maximize efficiency of rotational grazing. Your place will change over just a brief time to be more productive than you imagine. Your cattle needs and your thoughts on what you now perceive necessary will change also. Overall this move will be a work in progress and the needs initially will not reflect the future needs and the permanent fences will require a lot of work and expense to replace thus becoming a hindrance. What is your reluctance to having a main lane, using a temporary partial fence, to allow controlled movement of the animals to the entire acreage? You can use this main lane as a paddock that can be grazed. Waste nothing and graze everything!


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## stockdogcompany

I agree with agman. I especially don't like barb for internal divisions. Just a place for temporary electric break wires, reels, and other gear to tangle up and ground out! If you have hot high tensile smooth, or hot high tensile wove down on one side of the pasture on self insulated poly or composite posts, you can make breaks as often and as varied as you like with a couple of reels and poly wire, and a modest amount of step ins.

About grazing over your broom sedge: Small breaks, high density, and frequent moves. The sedge areas need hay rolled out, or you can only count as forage for feed the amount of non broom sedge stockpiled grasses. Are you tossing out some mixed legume and cover crop seed prior to getting on? If not, you should consider it. These are the areas that really benefit from turnips, radishes, carrots, beets, mangals, etc. Anything to build carbon below soil surface.


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## MSFarm

ok, I will go back to the drawing board. Could you tell me what you make your main lanes out of? What equipment is needed for lanes? And what equipment is needed for the other interior fences. Also How wide should the lanes be? 

Any suggestions on layout with the map I posted?


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## stockdogcompany

MS...........I can't pull out your pdf pic. I'm doing this assuming you can get pressurized water. If not, I'll show you my low cost radial break diagram to go to a central water location.

The cheapest way to start for MIG for rectangular fields with pressurized water and no history of yields, capacity, etc.

Run an offset permanent hot inside of your fence. (If you are short on cash, just run the permanent hot line down the long run so you can hook hot to the break wires, and use an insulated plastic handle to hook onto "dead" fence on other end to make a break without shorting out.)

Run an HDPE water line on top of the ground between fence and offset hot wire
Place T's with turn offs and connectors at every other theoretical break line to hook hose or line to portable tank. (don't put them all in at once. You may find it cheaper to get a longer set of hose/drop lines for your tank and splice and T every 4th paddock or so)

Just buy 3 or 4 reels, poly wire, and step in posts to make long, narrow breaks.

Leap frog cattle and break wire lines up and down the field. Buy tanks big enough to sit under the wire and give several cattle access at once from both sides of the break wire. You only have to move a tank every other paddock shift. Have a tank full of water already waiting every time you move cattle. I always leapfrog the tank to the next break and pre-fill before the next shift. That way if a connector, float,or tank breaks, I have time to get it fixed instead of having thirsty cattle. 

You have a small place. Spend money on returning things like over sized water line and bigger water tanks you can grow into, seed, someone elses hay, not permanent interior fence.


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## Gravytrain

What stockdog is describing is exactly how I'm set up, though I do have a few interior permanent dividers with gates. I set 1200 gallon polytanks at the highest points on my farm and use gravity to feed 1" water line that runs the 1/2 mile length of my farm. I have faucets every 150' or so that supply the moved 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tanks...easy to move, and you only have to do it every couple paddock changes. If you have a lane, you would have to move the tank even less frequently or never. I think what Agmantoo is getting at, is with a lane, you could place a water tank in the top middle of stockdog's rectangle and never have to worry about moving tanks.

If you don't have a way to fill those tanks uphill, you might need to pump water up periodically to fill a polytank from the pond.


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## MSFarm

I'm attaching the layout again. Only the black perimeter fence is a must. Let me know what you suggest. 

There can be pressurized water from the road that runs along the north side of the black perimeter fence.


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## stockdogcompany

If I had to use the surface water, I'd do something like this. The red represents a semi permanent hot 1 or 2 strand smooth high tensile. The greens are poly wire breaks. You can funnel to one point like a lane, but if it gets sloppy the broken green is a theoretical poly break to open via the west. The north/south and east west red semi permanent would need a buried or over head jumper. I would use spring gates or wire gates to open/close as needed.

The temp greens can do anything you want. They need to tie to red to be hot, but I left it open so you could see possibilities. If I have to make a hard corner with a poly wire I pound in a pasture pro or timeless fence post as a semi permanent that will take the pressure.

The little short red to the pond, probably should be green. Would be no fun to wrangle by a gate hole in a middle instead of a corner. Probably better off to just use a temp spring or wire gate there when needed.

Ignore the blue line, oops.


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## stockdogcompany

If you have pressure water, I could do with one semi permanent hot fence running with the surface pressure line from the north.

Here the leap frog idea is straight forward for the north west 1/4 of the property. The only limits on the woody/wet parts are your imagination, the number of posts, etc. There are thousands of variations of this, depending on your factors. 

I can't see the rocks and squishy parts. These should just get your wheels turning for lower cost, flexible solutions.

Red line, semi permanent hot
Blue line, pressure water
Green lines, theoretical placements of poly wire, step in posts......you can get infinite with these babies!!!


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## Gravytrain

Don't be afraid to allow a bit of access to wooded areas in each paddock for shade.


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## MSFarm

So in the second pic (the one with the pressure water), you wouldn't use lanes? 

Is the water along the blue line, also the location of the water tub?


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## Gravytrain

MSFarm said:


> So in the second pic (the one with the pressure water), you wouldn't use lanes?
> 
> Is the water along the blue line, also the location of the water tub?


You could do that with or without a lane. With a lane you wouldn't need to move the stock tank(s). Without a lane you would have to move a tank along the blue line connected with a hose. I move mine every other day. I set it up in the middle of where the paddock polywire will be. That way, tomorrow, when I move them I don't have to empty it. I just move the pigtail closest to the tank toward yesterday's paddock to give them a little more room to drink.

Keeping the interior as temporary as possible allows you to change things when, after grazing for a year or two, things turn out a bit different than you originally thought. You might need to add a lane, or change where the lane is at. Some of these needs might not be apparent right now.


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## stockdogcompany

MS

Correct. Just like in my generic rectangular field, the lowest cost and most grass productive would be to have two large tanks and leap frog the tanks down the field. If you get 200 gallon or bigger tanks, put a big drain valve on the bottom, mounted inside the tank so you have to get a wet arm but the cattle can't step on it and break it. Trying to flip and drain big tanks is no fun. Disconnecting the fill line and draining while you move cattle and mineral blocks and coming back to move an empty tank is much easier. You want to bulkhead a large drain valve hole for this so it's fast. 2" is good.

Just like Gravytrain said, you want tanks big enough to split under a break wire so your cattle can have access from both sides of a break so you only have to move a tank every other time. I like big tanks and big water lines, you can grow into them. You can't really trade out small tanks and small diameter lines for bigger ones and get your money back.

Lanes to permanent water are useful to limit damage to a field if you can't get the water to animals. Lanes loose productive capacity near the water point at best, or become muddy slop holes at worst. If you have clay soils and high animal density and heavy rain, it becomes necessary and costly to install geotextile fabric and sand, crushed shell, fine crushed lime, etc. Large volume grazing dairies end up with their own well maintained crushed stone and sand roads to the parlor. You need lots of revenue to pay for those systems.

If you have small animal densities, less rainfall, or sandy soils lanes are much easier to manage.

Beware NRCS recommendations, they love big crushed sharp pointy #2 stone pads with permanent water. I brought hundreds of thousands of revenue to one my companies fixing those cattle over a decade and a half. If you love abscesses, ulcers, and general bruising of hooves then the big nasty stone is the way to go.

You can get 50 or 100 feet long garden hoses or other line material and tie to the main blue line how ever you wish. Water tanks don't have to be on short lines right on main line. If there are wet holes, etc, you can move the tanks out further. You can also put tanks hooked to water lines this way where you want to get rid of undesirable stuff like rosebushes or black berry cans or broom sedge. Toss down seed, put tank in the middle of nasty stuff, let cattle trample it down. Just can't be so nasty cattle would rather go thirsty than trample stuff.


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## MSFarm

Thanks Gravytrain and stockdogcompany

I think i have been convinced that putting that permanent fence in the interior would be a big mistake. And I was going with the stone pad, put I see how that might be a bad idea. 

I think I now see why agmantoo was looking at what works for man and animal. I think I will go with the lanes to the pond without pressurized water and as I grow into this i will find out where the best place to add pressurized water would be. I will work on the lanes and trying to get as many long rectangular padocks as possible. 

Assuming you have multiple lanes or offshoots of lanes, what is used to make sure cattle only go toward water and not back and forth from lane to lane?


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## agmantoo

MSFarm

Always exit a paddock into the lane at a corner of the paddock being grazed. The corner should always be in the direction of the water location. If the exit is at a Tee into the lane then go in the lane to the offside from the direction of water an put up a short polywire blocking the cattle from moving in that direction. The cattle will quickly learn what direction to go. They will also know how to return to the area where they are grazing on their own. Try to keep the layout to where water is within 800 ft maximum if possible. I sometimes have to go further than that but if I do the herd seems to want to go as a whole group instead of going a few at a time.


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## MSFarm

Thanks Agmantoo. 

I'm going to work on a list for my fencing need. I will reserve my questions until I have read this thread again. I will return here if I still don't understand everything regarding fencing and layout.


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## Mid-MO

stockdogcompany said:


> MS...........I can't pull out your pdf pic. I'm doing this assuming you can get pressurized water. If not, I'll show you my low cost radial break diagram to go to a central water location.
> 
> The cheapest way to start for MIG for rectangular fields with pressurized water and no history of yields, capacity, etc.
> 
> Run an offset permanent hot inside of your fence. (If you are short on cash, just run the permanent hot line down the long run so you can hook hot to the break wires, and use an insulated plastic handle to hook onto "dead" fence on other end to make a break without shorting out.)
> 
> Run an HDPE water line on top of the ground between fence and offset hot wire
> Place T's with turn offs and connectors at every other theoretical break line to hook hose or line to portable tank. (don't put them all in at once. You may find it cheaper to get a longer set of hose/drop lines for your tank and splice and T every 4th paddock or so)
> 
> Just buy 3 or 4 reels, poly wire, and step in posts to make long, narrow breaks.
> 
> Leap frog cattle and break wire lines up and down the field. Buy tanks big enough to sit under the wire and give several cattle access at once from both sides of the break wire. You only have to move a tank every other paddock shift. Have a tank full of water already waiting every time you move cattle. I always leapfrog the tank to the next break and pre-fill before the next shift. That way if a connector, float,or tank breaks, I have time to get it fixed instead of having thirsty cattle.
> 
> You have a small place. Spend money on returning things like over sized water line and bigger water tanks you can grow into, seed, someone elses hay, not permanent interior fence.


Stockdogcompany,

A couple questions for you on the HDPE water line:
1. What size do you recommend?
2. Are there concerns of the water getting too hot in the summer with the pipe laying on the ground? We are in mid Missouri (zone 6) and I'm just thinking about those dog days of summer. If it is a concern, what is a work around? Go ahead and dig a trench and bury the pipe/add hydrants?

Apologies if you already covered this and I over looked it.

Mid-MO.


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## Gravytrain

Mid-MO,

The water coming out of the black water pipe will be warm at best and hot at worst, but that heat dissipates quickly in the stock tank. I run a 75' light green 5/8" hose from my HDPE water line and coil any slack around the bottom of the tank. This allows a the water to cool a bit coming from the black water pipe...not that it's necessary. We get a lot of days in the 90's and occasionally 100's here and my stock tanks are always cool.

I use 1" supply pipe. You could use larger, but it gets harder to prime in the spring if you are on hilly ground.


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## Mid-MO

Gravytrain said:


> Mid-MO,
> 
> The water coming out of the black water pipe will be warm at best and hot at worst, but that heat dissipates quickly in the stock tank. I run a 75' light green 5/8" hose from my HDPE water line and coil any slack around the bottom of the tank. This allows a the water to cool a bit coming from the black water pipe...not that it's necessary. We get a lot of days in the 90's and occasionally 100's here and my stock tanks are always cool.
> 
> I use 1" supply pipe. You could use larger, but it gets harder to prime in the spring if you are on hilly ground.


Gravytrain,

Thank you for the response. Can you drive over the HDPE pipe with, say, a truck or side by side ATV? I'm sure you wouldn't want it in a high traffic area, but I have one pasture in mind that the best place to run a line may end up being along a fence line that has a gate that may get occasional usage. 

Thanks again,
Mid-MO


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## stockdogcompany

It all depends on your situation. The number, size, and stage of production of livestock, wet grass or dry crop refuse, ambient temperature, distance of lines from the well or main connector, etc all factor into it.

From a larger scale commercial cow or stocker producer perspective, anything under 1 3/4" isn't going to do much if your are shoving it over 1,000 feet.

I don't like anything less than 2" for my needs if I'm going over 1500 feet. Big line is cheaper than loss of gain or lost time fixing broken down break wires cattle passed through to get to a different water source.

Dairy cows and I want it even bigger!!

The biggest problem with small line is the oops factor. Temperatures are high, grass is in a lower moisture status, and a line or tank breaks. Trying to "catch up" to the cattle gets really hard if you have low GPM flow at the tank because of water friction losses and small diameter pipe. Been there, done that, won't pee on that fence again on purpose!


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## stockdogcompany

Mid Mo

On non rocky areas, atv's are fine.

For heavier stuff, just slide it inside of a piece of iron pipe if you have to drive over it. I use used rubber milker liner ends and duct tape to make grommets on the ends of the iron pipe so it doesn't abrade through the poly pipe as the ends shift/wiggle/vibrate with vehicle or livestock passes. Then I pin it down in place with two "u" pins made of metal re-bar.


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## agmantoo

Here in zone 7 on a hot summer day I need to deliver ~30 gallons of water per adult animal minimum per day. With the well set to 40/60 PSI and using schedule 40 1 1/2" pvc buried it gets the job done without a lot of shoving and butting on a run that is ~1800 feet at this time. This amounts to more than 3000 gallons per day. I have read that cattle are not overly particular as to the quality of water they consume but my observation does not agree this is true. The cattle will walk further than one might imagine to get cold clean water and avoid drinking from a stream.


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## medski

I agree Agmantoo , my runs are a couple hundred feet longer than 800 but I am going to put in auto waters, Ritchie , and pump it cold from the well!


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## medski

I found out turkey litter was too expensive here, and I have to haul it and spread it! So I found two different dairy farmers here not far away, one is going to knife dairy manure in at 4 inches and one is going to surface apply this spring,(for free!) then I will notill and broadcast seed after I start grazing. My soil tested good for everything but organic matter.


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## stockdogcompany

Medski,

Don't be afraid to put in a few extra risers with t's and shut off's and short pieces of line with a female hose end hook up when you trench in your line. It's real handy to flip a concrete block or insulated cover off of a riser culvert and hook up to a portable tank with a piece of hose or HDPE when a Ritchie fount has a malfunction.

An extra hundred gallon rubber tank or two with a good high flow float assembly like the Jobe Mega Flow valves are very inexpensive insurance.


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## agmantoo

medski

I learned that I can put the water sources in the lane where a paddock starts to a point 800 feet away and then place the next waterer another 1600 feet away from the first one. This way initially the herd is moving toward the first waterer. Once they get to the first waterer I then start the herd working backward in the lane to the first waterer. After they get 800 feet from the first waterer I then start them going forward again to the second waterer that is now 800 feet in front of them again. I repeat this pattern on really long lanes. Cuts down on the number of waterers to buy and maintain and stops back grazing in the paddocks. This method is a little confusing until the layout is seen.
} ------------------------------------------------------------2400'----------------------------------------{} ------800'---------{ total 3200'
Start> ........... (800')............>Waterer#1<........(800')............<travel direction >...........(800')............>Waterer#2....................... off 2 waterers if needed
PS...not to scale


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## agmantoo

medski said:


> I found out turkey litter was too expensive here, and I have to haul it and spread it! So I found two different dairy farmers here not far away, one is going to knife dairy manure in at 4 inches and one is going to surface apply this spring,(for free!) then I will notill and broadcast seed after I start grazing. My soil tested good for everything but organic matter.


If you are going to use the dairy manure keep your animals inoculated, where available, for as any diseases that are prevalent in your area.


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## Gravytrain

stockdogcompany said:


> From a larger scale commercial cow or stocker producer perspective, anything under 1 3/4" isn't going to do much if your are shoving it over 1,000 feet.
> 
> I don't like anything less than 2" for my needs if I'm going over 1500 feet. Big line is cheaper than loss of gain or lost time fixing broken down break wires cattle passed through to get to a different water source.


I have a very small operation of (currently) 34 brood cows, bulls, short yearlings and feeders. I have about 2400' of 1" on my main line, and the ~600-700 gallons per hour the 1" supplies is overkill for my operation. 

However, the benefits of running, say 2" over 1" probably outweigh the drawbacks. The cost is greater with 2" but not substantially. I use all brass t's, L's and boiler valves, so buying 2" hardware would be quite a bit more expensive. If using pvc hardware, it wouldn't matter much.

I also run the water pipe through black pipe wherever I have a gate. I drive over the pipe with 4 wheelers all the time, and occasionally with a 3 ton tractor, but wherever I have high traffic I have it running through black pipe.


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## Awnry Abe

I want to dogpile on this latest water-source conversation on this thread with my own question. I don't do daily moves w/ lanes (yet). I still have 7-15 acre paddocks. On one particular set of paddocks, the waterer is in the corner. Using satellite views + walking the paddocks, I can tell you that whoever came up with that 800' line stuck the landing within a few feet. I am wasting about 1/3 of these paddocks because from corner-to-corner the water source is too far away. There is a very distinct arc in the grass radiating about the water source. Very obvious.

On other paddocks, I have had great luck with 100 gallon Rubbermaid tanks+Jobe valves+Plasson valves+garden hoses to get temporary water. But the runs have been very short. Gravytrain mentioned it, but I think I want to hear it again...the problem I think I will have will be the distance between the original water source and the temporary tank with above-ground lines in the heat. Is there a way around this without trenching? (In stockpiled/non-growing seasons, the 800' limit seems to be a non-factor).


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## Gravytrain

Abe, will you be moving your tanks with the paddocks or using a lane? How many cows? How long would the main run of water pipe be?

The long run to the tank shouldn't matter either way, but if you will be using a lane and the cows have to walk say 250 yards to water, they'll tend to go as a group. On the other hand, if you are moving the tanks with the paddocks then your cows will tend to go to the water cooler individually or in smaller groups. The "hot" water in the water pipe would be more of a concern with a higher number of cows drinking at the same time, but even so, heat dissipates very quickly in the stock tank.


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## stockdogcompany

Gravytrain,

Heat isn't a real big problem unless you get your tanks drank down and have large volumes of hot refill.

The easiest solution is a bigger tank, so the ratio of water in the tank is greater than the incoming warmed water that mixes in to reduce wild swings in water temp. You can reduce ambient temp in the tank with a small pipe frame structure and shade cloth to reduce solar gain during the hottest part of the day if you have a real sizzler of a heat wave. 

The biggest advantage of the surface line/portable tank is reducing walking distance so only a head or two at a time drink, rather than 15 or 20 or more based on herd size. Reducing hot refill. Two birds, one stone.


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## agmantoo

If stockpiling of forage is used how do you address watering the animals in Winter with small tubs and frozen surface pipe?


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## stockdogcompany

Snow. If I live where regular cold and snow go together, my stuff learns to eat snow. Dry brood cows, dry ewes, heavy stockers, not lactating or light stuff. Or overflow through a drain line just below the top of the surface area out-letted to a paddock stock just left so cows aren't ice skating or mud bogging. Hard to believe, but small amount of constant overflow is often cheaper than electric tank heaters. 

Of course at least one permanent water point that is winter proof and within reasonable walking distance is ideal as a back up. Or the ability to tank water to a tank for the necessary days. Flexibility, imagination, management ability and capital all influence what has worked in different areas.

I had one customer in Michigan who was very good with a pencil and spread sheets.....he discovered in a winter with little snow for his herd to eat that he could do trickle over flow for much less electric cost for the well than the cost of electric or LP tank heaters.

I tell folks in cold country to find Steve Kenyon's articles about winter grazing. He runs stuff outside year round in Busby, Alberta. He does a lot of "impossible" things pretty well.

*** I don't recommend not putting in under ground water lines when possible. I did lots of dairy consulting, I believe in investing in water. However, on new property, or rented property, or on crop land residue properties it isn't always feasible to get water lines in before you bring stock, develop a trusted relationship to invest in someone else's property, or it just isn't feasible. Putting a permanent waterline in a crop field for corn stock residue once every other or third year doesn't pay back very quickly.


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## stockdogcompany

Lest the snow for water bashing gets out of hand again. Yes, you have to have snow for your cows to eat snow. Yes there has to be enough snow, and it has to be good quality snow. Managing snow for water is just like managing grass for grazing, quality, volume and intake by stock must be monitored.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...cts/09-065.pdf

from above cited work

CONCLUSION
Without any apparent stress, dry pregnant ewes and
beef cows can use clean snow as their sole source of
water. This watering alternative may be used for an
extended period of time or when there is a disruption
of the normal winter water supply. Clean snow is a
safe and economical option as a source of water for
Ontario sheep flocks and beef cow herds


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## ycanchu2

We don't have enough snow here in Ky to make a snowman anymore but it sure does get cold like right now.
We just seem to get the arctic blasts with cold temps and very little snow.


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## medski

Great advice guys! My runs won't be much over 800 so I probably won't need extra. Also will be installing two Ritchie's and a frost free in barn just in case. The manure applied on the field shouldn't be a problem for desease as I won't be grazing it the first year.


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## medski

Most people that use snow for water here do time calving for early summer and it does work well as long as they use quality hay and minerals.


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## Awnry Abe

Mine would be lane less. It is currently two long rectangular paddocks that are too large for my herd to begin with. The waterer sits in the corner shared by the two. I tried chopping them in half with a lane this season, but the cows wouldn't budge past that imaginary 800' line. I estimate 400' would be necessary. My auxiliary tank with a Jobe is only 100 gallon. Procuring a larger one is not a problem.

@agman, the barely-touched ends of those paddocks were REALLY good stockpile this winter. I am just using my normal frost-free waterer in the corner right now. The cows are doing fine with the distance in the cold. I foresee the Jobe tank as a summer-only thing. I really look forward to trying it. That is a significant slice of pie.


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## stockdogcompany

Hey Abe,

With the tank and line in the summer, all you have to do is throw in some break wire lines and you'll really boost productivity.

You'll have to find a few head to custom graze on the extra grass during the flush and boost cash flow for the same work! Refer to my generic rectangular set up a page or two back to see how I break rectangles for simple daily to weekly moves.


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## Awnry Abe

What is a "break wire line?" I don't have a full cattleman's vocabulary.

With respect to the extra head / custom grazing, I'd have it wait a bit until I have my own house in order. In particular, I am trying to find the right stocking rate for my place. I got started right before the drought in 2012, so my pasture and mental metrics are a wee bit wacked. Do you see the custom grazing strategy as a trade for direct revenue which is offset by extra hay expense (instead of stockpiled grass?)


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## stockdogcompany

break wire=portable electric fence wire and step in posts used to create a temporary paddock subdivision or "break"

If you still had fall stock pile while section grazing and after drought, that means whatever you had stocked won't be nearly enough in adequate moisture and better management. I bring in extra animals for spring and early summer flush and send them out before beginning fall stock piling of forages. This may be 2 animals or 500, depending on your size. 

I've consulted on several cow calf places that were able to buy and sell or custom graze stocker calves, replacement heifers, dry fall calving cows, etc for a 70-100 day period and bring in a lot of extra cash flow from additionally produced forages from better management of the same acreage. Drawbacks are exposure to different animals, hence disease risks. Crazy animals that don't fence break, etc.

But if you get the right arrangement it can add cash flow without laying out your own capital to buy more brood cattle, etc. and little more labor outside of receiving protocols and shipping.


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## MSFarm

I have made a lot of progress in my planning. But I want to really get going over the next 2 weeks. I will send a pic of my lanes and rectangular paddocks. I have a list of things to buy but was hoping people know where the best place to find things. 

1) Where can I get the pre-drilled PVC post with the holes every 2 inches?
I need a spinner jenny, what is the best thing for someone that hasn't worked with fencing but wants to do it at low cost?
2) What is best for the end post? I have a barbed-wire external fence. Do I just place the interior paddock fence as close to it as possible? I'm sure I wont be making that external fence hot. 
3) Any good source for the step in pigtail posts 

4) Lastly and probably a longer more thought out purchase. I don't have a tractor, bushhog, or drag harrow (may use something homemade to spread manure), but from this site I see importance in being able to bushhog on quick notice.


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## MSFarm

Here is a link to a layout I did. 

http://www.scribblemaps.com/api/maps/images/450/450/Ce1EVApguV.png

The blue is the lanes. The one along the top edge and then turns to the water is 60 ft wide. The top part has barbwire fence along the top edge. Do you still have post and single strand parallel to that or do you let the barbwire handle that side of the lane? The other lane in the middle of the two rectangular paddocks is 30 ft wide. The three rectangular paddocks are 300 ft wide. They are each about 6 to 6.5 acres each. The paddock to the left that is odd shaped is 10 acres total. It has the water to 2 sides and a barbwire fence along the left side. What is the best way to rotate with this (fencing needed)?

In general what do you do when one side of your paddock is running along your outside permanent fence? Do you just run the post and hi tensile wire parallel to it? (If so how many feet away?)

Lastly the area at the bottom of the map I have struggled to figure out how to incorporate it. It is 20 acres mostly trees but the green part in it is about 7 acres of grazing area. Any help with this is greatly appreciated. 

Also so you know my operation. I have about 19 cows and 1 bull out there now with about 5 calves on the ground with calving expected year round but mostly in the Jan - late Sept time. I am looking to increase that and with this map I know I have about 35 acres of grazing area not counting the lanes. Assuming all areas can be incorporated. 

Thanks


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## stockdogcompany

1a. Timeless Fence b. http://www.powerflexfence.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=spinning+jenny

2. You can place an offset wire, 12 or 16 " inside the barb wire 32" off the ground with offset insulators, or on poly posts. You don't want it getting grounded out by getting too close.

http://www.powerflexfence.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=offset

3. http://www.kencove.com/fence/Posts_products.php

4. Lots of small scale ranchers lose money bush hogging with their own equipment. You could buy a helluva lot of revenue producing cows,hair sheep or goats for brush management instead of a tractor. I can get bushhogging done for 10-15 bucks an acre. It doesn't cover the interest expense/opportunity costs, let alone all the none returning capital expenditure on something that depreciates away. When unable to pay someone to do it, I can rent a beautiful tractor, have it delivered and picked up with an implement, and do a single management activity in a day or two for way less than one months payments, interest, depreciation, taxes, insurance, etc. 

Tractors don't produce revenue on a ranch, pounds of livestock sold or custom grazed produce revenue!!!!

4 b. If you do higher density grazing, learn to put your water tanks or salt blocks in the brush, and you won't need a bush hog. It's a sign of poor grazing management or improper stocking density, with some exceptions that the peanut gallery is about to tell you all about.


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## ramiller5675

stockdogcompany, I might be wrong but I'd guess that MSFarm's question about brush hogging has more to do with one of the main themes running through this thread which is about clipping the seed heads of grass to keep it more productive than it does about mowing to control brush. 

The way I understand it, it wouldn't be too feasible to either rent a tractor or pay someone to come out and mow the seed heads in the way that Agmatoo is talking about where the mowing is staggered over the pasture depending on the growth of the grass. 

If you haven't read through the thread, go back and read it for a better explanation about clipping seed heads.


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## MSFarm

Thanks Stockanddog. 

Yes I was talking about the keep grass from seeding. I do agree that a new tractor is out of the question and I don't know anything about repairing older ones that may be cheap. I just didn't want the savings that I was gaining from extended grazing seasons to go to paying someone to bushhog when needed. I may try the out-sourcing until a better option is available.

One more question. I don't have electricity out at the pasture . So I was thinking of the solar or battery powered chargers. Any recommendations on specs for those and would battery or solar give enough juice for my operation?


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## stockdogcompany

RA,

I am talking about seed head clipping. If MS ended up with one less calf for the 19 cows he has, and 20 pound lighter calves per cow because of not clipping with a purchased tractor and mower, but instead bought 10-15 more cows and weaned 9-14 more calves of 20 pound below average calves, he would still make a helluva lot more money than by clipping pastures with the bought tractor and mower. And have self replacing capital assets on his balance sheet instead of rusting depreciating metal.

Once fully stocked and very productive, using the extra dollars to invest in a tractor and mower may have benefit or not. Sharp pencil and real evaluations of one's own circumstance will determine the best outcome.

Using extra cattle from someone else to get paid to get ahead of senescence is usually more profitable than riding a tractor to do the same thing.

MS,

A dual input battery/ AC as big as you can afford. Spend extra for more joules up front if you can so you can add semi permanent wires without upgrading later. Also, if you get one with a hand held remote with that brushy/woody area you have you'll save tons of time not running back and forth to turn the charger on/off as you pick up tree limbs, etc off of your fences after wind storms. 

The most expensive, but my favorite for remote areas are

http://www.kencove.com/fence/Dual+Purpose+Energizers_product.php

You can build your own component system by using large dry cell batteries, a solar cell of proper wattage indirectly hooked to batteries via a voltage regulator, all mounted on a dolly cart or one of those fancy plastic milk crate looking wagons. If batteries fail, they are external and you can swap em, if a solar panel breaks it isn't hooked to a fencer, and if the fencer goes down, you can get another battery operated one and swap out. At least the dry cells and solar panels can be found at a broad variety of stores from RV centers to farm stores to harbor freight, etc. I keep a spare fencer of minimum capacity on hand as well.


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## MSFarm

Stockdog, I hear you on the carrying additional cows. I guess I really was concerned about stockpiling forage for drought and winter. I'm not sure how this could be done without keeping cattle off of it and keeping it from seeding by bushog, so that it keeps growing.


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## medski

Question: I have 30 acres with little or no perimeter fence it needs all new. Any suggestions on the best way to go?


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## stockdogcompany

MS,

Welcome to the dance. Maximum production? Maximum TDN? Maximum Stocking? Or optimums and compromises to produce the most profit for the labor, land and cash you have available.

Some of the best graziers with paid for places will have better management opportunities that will pay back incrementally, however you have to paint a target on the low hanging fruit and build revenues. You're a boot strapper building equity.

And you have to measure it to manage it. You have to measure your results and tweek and fiddle and fail and re-try until you get it right. You can't have maximum security and maximum productivity......you'll have to find your middle ground according to your resources.

A non ag website to help you think like a businessman in the wonky, digitally connected world we live in. 

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/


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## ycanchu2

If you are coming out of an overgrazing/continuous grazing situation like I am, then you got pastures that are uneven. You may have half the field of fescue thick and tall and the other half thin and short from all the years where the cattle have over grazed their favorite spots. If you turn cattle into those paddocks for even one day they will go straight to the short thin tender spots and hardly touch the bigger more established areas.
Whereas, if you can leave these areas out for a few months, either most or part of the year these thin spots can have a chance to come together and establish itself where the whole paddock or paddocks will become established. Clipping with a bushhog....not too short can help speed up the process IMO and experience....sort of like mowing your yard but mowing it high as possible. Nothing is wasted IMO....the grass clippings is going to feed the soil mics.
I do know from experience that if you let fescue go fully brown to seed, it is done until fall, but if it can be clipped before turning brown it is not as likely to go dormant unless it gets awfully dry. Letting it head out and complete its lifecycle at least once per year....but not turn brown, is good for it IMO.
If you already have the bushhog and tractor I think they can be used for ones benefit.
Its hard to make all the money that can possibly be made from the git go.....there is a learning curve in all this. Building a cow/calf herd up 20 to 50% above what I already have is something I see as very doable and am doing as my pastures improve in parallel.


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## stockdogcompany

Are any of you using warm season natives like eastern gamma grass, big blue stem, indian grass etc in your rotational grazing programs to have productive grass during summer slump for fescue and other cool season grasses?


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## agmantoo

stockdogcompany said:


> Are any of you using warm season natives like eastern gamma grass, big blue stem, indian grass etc in your rotational grazing programs to have productive grass during summer slump for fescue and other cool season grasses?


Getting through the last half of July and all of August is the more difficult portion of my rotational grazing. I can, with rain, extend my managed fescue forage until mid July and I will want by September to start pulling the fescue from dormancy to start amassing fescue growth for stockpiling. What works best for me in this narrow window and not conflict with the established fescue is pearl millet. Additionally I can get grazing from the pearl millet within a short growth period, less than 60 days, so I overseed some fescue acreage (~25 acres of bottom land with some moisture) that is going dormant. Pearl millet does not contain prussic acid so I can feed it without concern at any stage of growth. The fescue and the pearl millet work well together without competing with each other. I can interseed early planted rye grass with this mixture if needed.


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## stockdogcompany

Is there enough nitrogen credit from the clover and nutrient cycling from grazing to produce the millet with out additional fertility?

Any idea of approx. dry matter tonnage with the interseeding scheme?


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## agmantoo

The tonnage is not all that good because the fertility of this parcel of land is lacking coupled with seasonally dry August weather. The creek significantly overflowed the banks a couple of years ago and the bottom got a heavy deposit of sand/sediment along the boundary. I have limed the area but I have not applied any commercial fertilizer. Years that have a hurricane coming up the coast producing inland rain will yield ~ 2 plus tons/acre but realistically I expect maybe 1.8 tons of DM on average. I have nothing to support this statement other than the number of head it will support over the July/August time period mentioned above. Overall, I have not had to feed hay but a few times in the last 15 years, and that was mostly during drought. I may have to feed a little hay this Winter or have a photo finish with nature come Spring. My herd headcount is 10% over what I can normally support without hay. With no hay fed, my yearly objective is to maintain one cow and her calf until the feeder calf is sold for each 1.4 acres in forage. Land prices along with limited available contiguous acreage for sale restrict expansion. I also have all the work that I want to do at this juncture. Cattle are a part time venture for me.


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## ycanchu2

stockdogcompany said:


> Are any of you using warm season natives like eastern gamma grass, big blue stem, indian grass etc in your rotational grazing programs to have productive grass during summer slump for fescue and other cool season grasses?


EGG takes a long time to get established from what I've seen, might be nice to have some, but then its gone at first frost they say.
I have a native bluestem grass that the NRCS id'd as caucasion blue stem it gets a purple silky seedhead when mature. cattle don't seem to like it much except when its young and tender, it wants to go to seed pretty quickly then they really don't like it. It grows mostly where the fescue isn't established very good.
I have been interseeding some Persist Orchardgrass in my pastures that I like pretty well. It doesn't slump in the summer as bad as fescue, but doesn't hold its green as good as fescue in the late winter, but it comes on in the spring almost as quick as ryegrass.
I have planted some pearl millet like Agman mentioned. Cattle love it...I mostly worked up some ground and planted it that way I haven't tried no-tilling it into fescue. But I haven't grown it in years.
I try to get thru the slump like I do during most of the year by making my paddocks alittle bigger and moving the cattle daily just letting them eat the top of the fescue/ orchardgrass etc. THey don't seem to want to eat it very short that time of year I guess because it is less palatable.


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## Awnry Abe

I have a 7 acre paddock of almost all EGG. Over the years, that paddock had been bailed with those bails rolled out in winter to other paddocks. Now there are stands of EGG in the midst of so many paddocks. It is real nice to have.


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## Allen W

ycanchu2 said:


> I have a native bluestem grass that the NRCS id'd as caucasion blue stem it gets a purple silky seedhead when mature. cattle don't seem to like it much except when its young and tender, it wants to go to seed pretty quickly then they really don't like it. It grows mostly where the fescue isn't established very good.


http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/caucasian-bluestem

Caucasion bluestem isn't a native grass, it's an old world bluestem that was introduced.

The best seed head picture I found http://www.jeinc.com/old-world-bluestem


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## agitatorr

1st post. no comments for week. is weather keeping everyone busy? Many here seem to weather the weather without feeding; is that still true this year? 

I live in Texas Panhandle, so fescue is just lawn grass that requires lots of water. Warm season perennials require protein during dormant season but I do have abundant ""stockpiled" frosted grass. 

Amarillo forecasting 8F tomorrow morning; cold and windy here with some snow predicted but not what Boston gets.

Tried setting up polywire step in post fence but cows through in 12 hrs. took up polywire and threw away in 24. would veterans mind answering questions?


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## stockdogcompany

Agitatorr,

i am having a little trouble discerning what you are after.

Do you need help learning to break wire train your cows? If so, tell us about your numbers, class of cattle, locations and types of water, perimeter fence type, etc.

Don't blame the fence. By the way, arid desert ground in frozen conditions usually has poor ground fields and you need a pos/neg two wire system and/or a really good ground system. And cows need to be trained. And you need to have enough feed, water, wind breaks to keep them where they belong.

Give us some good concise information and we can help you out! Almost everybody has cows through the fence the first time if they haven't grown up or worked for someone else doing it before. Don't give up and we'll talk you down for a smooth-ish landing.


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## agitatorr

thanks, sdc.

I have some experience with electric fence- but not polywire, step in posts, low impedance chargers, frequent breaks. I am "20th century". Slow to adapt to new technology.

Cattle are: 25 momma's, 3 bred heifers, 11 yearling heifers, 5 new baby calves.
5 wire barb wire perimeter. 5 one wire (electric)interior divisions.
3 central watering pts.- two submersibles, one windmill.

Climate zone- on cusp of 6-7, se Tx. panhandle. 20 in. av. precip. Western Tx panhandle is steppe climate zone, I am barely in Humid subtropical side. USDA says 26 acres/ cow here for native range, 9 acres improved pasture. 

tried to use break with 3 strand polywire, zareba, black and orange. I decided it was too small and hard to see and didn't carry enough current. used plastic step=ins available locally. replaced old small "10 mile" zareba charger with new 10 joule Gallagher, which showed to be putting out 7500 kv, so should have been enough juice.



after reading this thread, (didn't memorize it!) I wanted to know if polywire, polybraid, real wire, tape is most popular with those experienced. Looking to order fatter wire/braid- 6 or even nine pieces, but thought consulting folks here might save mistakes and frustration.

Did find favorable recommendations for pigtails- specifically parmak. Is it the consensus opinion for pigtails over plastic? Parmak over Gallagher or?

Cattle haven't been through old one wire semi-permanent fence during recent period, but they are trained to old wire, but not polywire. have had some moisture lately. there may have been mistake in my installation, but grounding (due to dry soil) is not problem at this time. 

1. Which- polywire? polybraid? tape? Favorite size? 1/4 mile or 1/8(200meters)? (haven't ordered any yet, but thinking fat diameter, shorter lengths-)

Favorite brand? source?

2. Parmak pigtails for step-in posts over plastic step-ins? O'Brien?

My writing as I am thinking may be impossible to decipher, if so, I will try again. Thanks for response!


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## stockdogcompany

I use 6 stainless steel strand wire, in 1640' rolls in white color.

http://www.kencove.com/fence/items.php?page=2&cat=Rotational+Grazing+Supplies&userRows=

It is light weight, needs less posts per long run, is more visible except in snow, and costs the least to boot. 

I have had sheep, goats, cattle and pigs walk through the yellow/black stuff when doing intensive grazing and frequent moves. There must be a few head in every group that can't see it for some reason. Only time it works for me is when it's snow covered, and then it stands out a little.

You need to train cows. Start near existing fence line and creep in your temp fence a few feet, yards, etc and let them learn that the new line is equivalent to the smooth wire hot interior you have. If you need an excuse to drink a few beers or extra soda pops, I tie empty an empty beer can to a short piece of poly wire and dangle it 4" or so below the line. Curious cows train themselves awful fast. When I am on snowy fields or very tall prairie grasses I use the shiny beer can trick to help cows see the wire. Left over aluminum foil from holiday dishes can do the same thing if folded into aluminum foil bow ties and fashioned on the same way.

I love o'brien's white step-in posts and 3:1 geared reels. 

http://www.kencove.com/fence/Rotational+Grazing+Supplies_products.php


Metal pig tails are nice until a wire slips out somehow and grounds out against the metal lower part. I had a mossy horned old nag that figured out how to lift up hot wire on a horn tip and drop it to ground out the fence. Never been so happy to butcher a good breeder as when I found out the who and how of that deal. And I always figure out a way to bump into the single hot while holding the metal part of a pig tail. Makes me cuss and dance!

I occasionally will pound in a pasture pro composite post or a timeless fence poly t post to sturdy up a line in dry gravelly soil or smooshy, water logged muck or clays with high winds possible.

http://www.powerflexfence.com/category_s/128.htm

It sounds like you are in a fairly arid condition most of the time. I would make sure I have a good ground plane. I might even run another perimeter wire around the pasture down low, with ground rods driven in and connected to it at the far end of the pasture , and hook this to the ground side of the fencer. Optional, but may be necessary during droughty or dry frozen times of year.


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## agitatorr

thanks sdc. I will peruse links and incorporate your suggestions for training on next try, as well as making sure connections and ground are sound.


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## Gravytrain

I use the exact same reels and polywire as SDC does. I use the O'Brien step-ins for pigs. I use pigtails for cows. I've never had a problem with them except when I let the metal extend out beyond the insulator. It's easy to slide the plastic insulator back out if that happens. 

Probably the reason I don't have a problem with pigtails is I installed shutoffs every so often along my exterior fence. I usually set up multiple paddocks at a time. Kill power, run reels, pigtails, reenergize...repeat in 3 or 4 days. When moving I just unhook handle and let cows in, then disconnect the former back line reel to be reinstalled up ahead. No risk of getting zapped. On the rare occasions that I'm just hooking up one paddock, I typically do not shut the power off...I just take my time and avoid touching the metal part of the pigtail to the energized wire.

When training cows make sure your energizer is as hot as it can be. It might be worth your money to invest in a new fencer if they are not respecting yours. I'm an amperage hound on my farms. Any leaks and I sniff them out before my animals can become underwhelmed by the fence performance.


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## stockdogcompany

I like the cut out idea Gravytrain!

I finally jumped up to the nicer model of fencers with the remote control for shutting off power. Just like a regular voltage meter with a control for the fencer, lay it on the line, and push a button to turn it on or off. I do the zappity dance a lot less frequently now.

Stafix and Kencove both have these models available now.


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## WJMartin

I run a lot of electric fence, some poly some wire stuff but my charger is a 100 mile charger for a couple of miles or so of fencing. It has a good hard bite to it and the cows don't try to get out and the grass doesn't bother too much.


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## stockdogcompany

WJ,

That it works and has good voltage on your fence is what ultimately matters. However, the 100 mile fencer by Zareba(ratings other than joule vary by brand significantly) is only a 6 joule fencer. Everyone needs to think about if there will be expansion of more internal fences over time, if by adopting good grazing that they will get more and denser and taller forages as they go, or if they may add species that will need more wires down in the vegetation in the future of their operations.

Mileage ratings are fairly inaccurate. I just helped at a consulting job last summer with two 100 mile fencers up on the farm on two different circuits and the small fencers just couldn't hack it. Less than 20 miles of actual wire up and running per charger and couldn't keep 1 kV at the far end. They had awesome grass and clover. The fencers had been adequate a couple years ago, however their plant density, health, and height had exploded under good management. Had them bump up to 13 joule fencers with remotes of a different brand and they cooked the vegetation and put out 9-10 KV all over the place.

And of course, ground plane matters. All of us that live where we get over 32" of rain a year spread out fairly evenly have no idea how good we have it. I've done enough help with folks on arid soils that need a pos/neg system that I really appreciate a humid, well watered environment to provide a return path for current to the charger. But fences still need enough ground rods in the right place hooked properly to the fencer to matter.


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## ycanchu2

Any body started rotating their cattle yet and stopped feeding hay? I plan on starting about the 22nd, simply because I'll be out of hay then and am finding hay hard to find.
I started last year on the 26th because I ran out of hay. I always wander when too early is too early, but looking at the grass today its really greening up and if these temps stay up it should be tall enough to graze in a week or so.
What I plan to do, as I did last year, is open up large sections...about 5 to 6 acres a day, which will take me thru the whole farm in 2 to 3 weeks. 
By the time I get thru one pass it will have regrown significantly or least that's what happened last year.


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## agmantoo

I reverted to rotational grazing 4 days ago. Hay was fed for roughly 8 days. I am doing the same thing you are planning on doing, large areas and moving frequently. My clover is earlier than the fescue and the clover stand is too strong and needs suppressed. I see no downside especially with the weather we are experiencing.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> I reverted to rotational grazing 4 days ago. Hay was fed for roughly 8 days. I am doing the same thing you are planning on doing, large areas and moving frequently. My clover is earlier than the fescue and the clover stand is too strong and needs suppressed. I see no downside especially with the weather we are experiencing.


That sounds great. 8 days...that's awesome. 
I am thinking that letting the cattle lightly graze the grass may stimulate growth similar to mowing the yard for the first time. 
We all know how after we mow the yard once.... its all over....it seems to go into growing mode. I've heard it called root shock, which stimulates regrowth.


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## Gravytrain

ycanchu2 said:


> Any body started rotating their cattle yet and stopped feeding hay?


Still 4 or 5 feet of snow to melt off yet. :hair


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## Awnry Abe

The past 3 seasons, I have stopped hay and started grazing April 7-ish. We are having a warm end of winter, and I am hopeful to start earlier this year. But I used little hay this winter and have plenty, so I have options. 

The fundament change I am making this season is more frequent moves. I have taken some large paddocks and divided them. In the past, I would camp cows on the large paddocks for long periods (5-7 days), with uneven grazing. I hope the short intervals over smaller paddocks will yield healthier lawn.


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## bja105

I have not yet stopped hay, but the snow is melting. I have my round bales set in a strip and move the cross fence. The bales were set on the longest, best grass. As the snow melts, the animals get more of the grass. Today, they skipped the hay and went straight for the grass. We have an inch of ice in half of the pasture.


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## stockdogcompany

The increasing productivity, decreasing costs, and improving stockmanship of this crowd is getting pretty impressive.


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## agmantoo

Awnry Abe said:


> The past 3 seasons, I have stopped hay and started grazing April 7-ish. We are having a warm end of winter, and I am hopeful to start earlier this year. But I used little hay this winter and have plenty, so I have options.
> 
> The fundament change I am making this season is more frequent moves. I have taken some large paddocks and divided them. In the past, I would camp cows on the large paddocks for long periods (5-7 days), with uneven grazing. I hope the short intervals over smaller paddocks will yield healthier lawn.



Keep a record again this year with the more frequent moves. IMO I believe you will find that you will have improved carrying capacity, up to 20 more animals, and at least a week earlier getting started rotating and a week later with the grazing period, possibly longer. This projection is based on having typical moisture.


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## MSFarm

Agmantoo, 

Is there anyway your system works with 2 strand of electric high tensile wire? Seems like you would need gates with 2 strands instead of being able to raising the wire?


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## agmantoo

I can work the interior partitions with as many as 3 wires.The top and bottom wire hot and the middle wire ground. The PVC pipe will have a V cut in the top of pipe, just as if I was going to use a single wire. I make 2 small ~1/8th inch holes in the PVC pipe on one side about 4 inches vertically apart starting near the top of the PVC pipe and then a single ~1/8th inch on the other side about 4inches below the lower 1/8th inch hole. 3 small "S" hooks are fabricated and inserted in the 1/8th inch holes. Next I pull the hairpins holding the top and the lower hot wire and insert those wires on the side with 2 small holes, top wire to top hook and lower/bottom hot wire to the second hook down. Following this, I now remove the ground wire hairpin and place that wire on the unused "S" hook. The diameter of the 2 inch PVC will now separate the hot wires to one side of the PVC pipe and the ground wire will be on the other side of the PVC pipe by more than 2 inches which is adequate to prevent arching.
Hot hole_"S"__Hot_hole_"S"________________________________Not
>Vee_______________________________________________________to
____________________Gnd_Hole____________________________Scale
PVC......................... pipe "S"
Gate Top
<.........................................................7 1/2 ft................................>


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## pfettig77

We just got our first cattle (4 lowline heifers) and we're feeding them hay. I was going to just keep feeding them hay till things green up. Now I'm wondering a few things about grazing:

1) Should I put them out in the pasture right now and let them eat the tall dormant grass (see picture). Is there nutritional value in that? I haven't trained them on electric fence yet, so I'll have to put up a training fence in the corral first (not sure how long to do that). 

2) I have about 8 acres of pasture that hasn't been pastured in many years but has the tall dead grass in it. Should I give that all a mowing before the summer so that it comes up green and lush?

3) Is there any point to rotating if there is more than enough pasture to feed the animals without rotating?


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## agmantoo

pfettig77 said:


> We just got our first cattle (4 lowline heifers) and we're feeding them hay. I was going to just keep feeding them hay till things green up. Now I'm wondering a few things about grazing:
> 
> 1) Should I put them out in the pasture right now and let them eat the tall dormant grass (see picture). Is there nutritional value in that? I haven't trained them on electric fence yet, so I'll have to put up a training fence in the corral first (not sure how long to do that).
> *Put the animals on pasture* *as soon as you see things greening*.* While feeding this dormant and dead grass give each of the cattle access to roughly 6 to 8 lbs of good hay per day Start training the animals to the electric fence now. A week should be adequate.*
> 
> 2) I have about 8 acres of pasture that hasn't been pastured in many years but has the tall dead grass in it. Should I give that all a mowing before the summer so that it comes up green and lush?
> *Yes, let the animals eat what they will off that also and still supplement with the 6 to 8 lbs. daily. After the cattle stop willingly grazing the 8 acres use a rotary cutter to chop up the residue/thatch and then a harrow to distribute the manure*.
> 
> 3) Is there any point to rotating if there is more than enough pasture to feed the animals without rotating?


*You do not want to stop rotating. Instead start storing the surplus for future use. Never let this surplus make seed heads. If you do it will stop growing.* *As cold weather nears you can/should have stockpiled grass to go into Winter with.*


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## pfettig77

Great! Thanks a bunch.


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## pfettig77

By the way, I've been giving them all the hay they want, not just 6-8 pounds. Should I limit them to one bale a day(I'm guessing my bales are about 40 pounds)?


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## agmantoo

3% of their body weight should meet the total demand for a one day allocation of hay. Good quality hay at 20%+ of the daily allocation will let the non lactating heifers hold body condition while eating the thatch/stubble. Your observation of how the animals preference goes for the forages will "tell" you of how they like the mixture. They will eat their first choice initially. As the pasture turns green I expect the animals to go for the green first. As for my preference of what they eat, I would want the pasture cleaned ASAP so that I could get them off the hay and the pasture back into production. Have you taken a soil sample of the pastures so that you will know what to apply to maximize the production of the soil? Are there any legumes, maybe dormant, in the pasture?


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## Phean

Interesting videos on mob grazing.
Mob Grazing &#8211; Definition, Benefits, Drawbacks and Implementation

Sorry if its been posted before


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## gimpyrancher

I can't open the link.


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## ycanchu2

Its been an unusual spring here. The cool weather has made the grass recovery slower than usual....barely getting tall enough to regraze after 40 to 45 days of rotating thru the whole farm.​ The forecast is in the 80's next week so I expect grass growth to really speed up.​ Anyone else having any issues?​


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## gwithrow

same here...though it looks like things are picking up this past week...I wonder how the rest of the season will go, but all I can do is continue the march...we will pull off fall calves in two weeks...which will lighten the load on the pastures and allow for smaller paddocks....

the cows are hopefully rebred for October calves and I am always hopeful that the rain will continue as needed and we will go into fall in good shape...and that I will be able to stockpile even more for winter this year than last...

what is growing looks pretty good...more clover than ever and the orchard grass is looking healthy....of course we have no control over the weather, so we will just do the best we can with what comes our way.....


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## Conhntr

Hi. I am much smaller than most of the examples on here. I have a 6 acre main pasture, one .5 acre pasture, .5 acres of lawn id like to use for the cattle, a .25 acre corral/watering area/creep feeeder, and a .3 acre paddock that is used for pigs 6 months a year but can use it early spring and late fall. 


Unfortuantly there is a 1100 lb horse here that i am stuck with. Currently i have 2 400lb steers and the horse. 

The main pasture has a perimeter fence, 3 string electric inside that (one of the calves is a jumper) and i have polywire on step in post dividing it into 3 pieces each conncected to the corral for access to water, hay, and a run in. This equals about 2 acres per section. The pasture has good grass but i get alot of weeds and have to bushhog at least 1 in late spring and 1 Or 2 times in summer. I believe part of this is it was overgrazed last year becuase i did not rotate and it was just hammered by the horse until about may when the grass finally got ahead of him. 

So my questions are
1. With 1 horse and 2 steers should i divide it into more smaller sections? just eyeballing it seems like 3 made sense but what do i know? 
2. What is the best utilaztion of the 2 half acre areas? one was mowed as a lawn by prior owner and is pure fescue the other used to be part of the main pasture but my orchard and garden cut in between. 
3. The steers are for an experiement this year to see how i do. id like to get some cows eventually and sell calves. I need at least 2 cows year round and selling the calves at auction for tax reasons. But Id prefer to maximize the number i can carry while minimizing input. Is 2 going to max out my pasture or 3? This is horse country so "cattle" hay is cheap but id rather not have to supplement hay in green season winter only


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## agmantoo

I too have been observing the conditions in my paddocks. Here is the main lane leading from the furthermost back of the farm to the near front area where I stage feeder calves that are going to market. Tomorrow I will be marketing a group of feeder calves and the herd is being moved accordingly to allow sorting. Even though the pic is not very good you can see that the mixed grass in the lane is a mixture of volunteer and some seeded varieties and are not very impressive. Where I sod drilled Marshal ryegrass and had orchard grass established has flourished however.


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## WJMartin

Well, at least for another month my rotational grazing has come to a screeching halt. It's been so long since we had mud that when we finally got some I guess I forgot how slippery this red clay is. Fell and broke my right leg just above the ankle, spiral, thankfully no surgery if I behave so I've been ordered out of the pasture.

We have the best looking pasture in 4 years and the cows and horses are just wondering around having a grand ol' time. We have finished removing cedars from this 20 acre area and that has helped a lot. We are having enough rain I don't dare run the gator out in the pasture so here I sit just enjoying the view from my rocking chair, hoping the grass doesn't put on seed heads before I can run the mower over it.

Thankfully for now the drought is over, enjoying the rain and so far the tornados are to the north and south and all the tigers at the Safari are back in cages.


----------



## ycanchu2

WJMartin said:


> Well, at least for another month my rotational grazing has come to a screeching halt. It's been so long since we had mud that when we finally got some I guess I forgot how slippery this red clay is. Fell and broke my right leg just above the ankle, spiral, thankfully no surgery if I behave so I've been ordered out of the pasture.
> 
> We have the best looking pasture in 4 years and the cows and horses are just wondering around having a grand ol' time. We have finished removing cedars from this 20 acre area and that has helped a lot. We are having enough rain I don't dare run the gator out in the pasture so here I sit just enjoying the view from my rocking chair, hoping the grass doesn't put on seed heads before I can run the mower over it.
> 
> Thankfully for now the drought is over, enjoying the rain and so far the tornados are to the north and south and all the tigers at the Safari are back in cages.


Sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you get well soon.


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## Allen W

WJMartin said:


> Well, at least for another month my rotational grazing has come to a screeching halt. It's been so long since we had mud that when we finally got some I guess I forgot how slippery this red clay is. Fell and broke my right leg just above the ankle, spiral, thankfully no surgery if I behave so I've been ordered out of the pasture.
> 
> We have the best looking pasture in 4 years and the cows and horses are just wondering around having a grand ol' time. We have finished removing cedars from this 20 acre area and that has helped a lot. We are having enough rain I don't dare run the gator out in the pasture so here I sit just enjoying the view from my rocking chair, hoping the grass doesn't put on seed heads before I can run the mower over it.
> 
> Thankfully for now the drought is over, enjoying the rain and so far the tornados are to the north and south and all the tigers at the Safari are back in cages.


Sorry to hear about your ankle, hopefully you'll recover quickly. The rain we're receiving has been a real blessing. I'm behind and haven't even been able to get any thing started and it looks like we have another week of rain.


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## Gabriel

Conhntr said:


> So my questions are
> 1. With 1 horse and 2 steers should i divide it into more smaller sections? just eyeballing it seems like 3 made sense but what do i know?
> 
> Is 2 going to max out my pasture or 3? This is horse country so "cattle" hay is cheap but id rather not have to supplement hay in green season winter only


1 - Smaller sections with more frequent moves will be better for the pasture. Only you can say whether or not that's feasible for you to do. 

2 - Only time will tell, as it depends on the quality of the pasture and your management, along with the size of the cattle. 

3 - Horses eat more than cows for their body weight. *cough* Just sayin'.


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## Conhntr

Gabriel said:


> 1 - Smaller sections with more frequent moves will be better for the pasture. Only you can say whether or not that's feasible for you to do.
> 
> 2 - Only time will tell, as it depends on the quality of the pasture and your management, along with the size of the cattle.
> 
> 3 - Horses eat more than cows for their body weight. *cough* Just sayin'.


So what size paddocks is ideal for my "herd" of 1 horse and 2 300-400lb steers? 1 acre? I use step in post and polywire so i can make any size. Im making them pizza slice shaped so i have the run in and water available at all times then alternating slices. 


I know about the horse. Im stuck with it.


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## Gabriel

Only you can say for sure. It will vary according to how productive your land is, as well as the season. Just apply the principles of movement and rest and you'll see what works.


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## arbullet

I'm only on page 60.

Agman,

Curiosity has got the best of me and I was wondering about harvesting the seeds. 

On page 56 you said you use a old Allis Chalmers 66 combine. When do you harvest them? Is there a time limit once the seed head has formed? 

Once you harvest the seed do you still clip the pasture?

Thanks.


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## agmantoo

Hi,

I have harvested tons of fescue seed over time. My approached is to grasp a handfull of seed heads once they turn brown, usually this time of year here is zone 7, and rub the seedheads between my hands. If the seeds release readily, I then harvest. However, once harvested you are not through with the task, the harvested seeds will go through a heat cycle if not forced to conclude drying. My earlier drying consisted of shoveling the seeds from one utility trailer to another trailer. That was time consuming and laborious. Later I bought an old peanut wagon. A peanut wagon is made for drying peanuts and has a perforated floor. Under the floor is a large duct like configuration for moving forced air under the perforated floor and up through the product on the floor. This is somewhat like drying beans and corn. For air use and old furnace/heat pump blower fan. The moisture will slowly rise up through the product being dried. Obviously this removes all the work and improves the drying process. I check the dried fescue seed germination to ensure I have a viable end results by using paper towels and a paper plate. This is easy. Take at least 3 to 4 sheets of paper towel and wet them heavily. Put the towels on the paper plate and then place a set number of seeds on the wet towel. Next place a single wet paper towel over the seed. Put this rig on top of the refrigerator. In 3 to 5 days uncover the seed and count the number of seeds that have a root visible and calculate the percentage of germinated seed.

PS....Yes I do clip because this effort coincides with fly hatching and pinkeye. I clip to minimze scratching the area near the eyes.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have harvested tons of fescue seed over time. My approached is to grasp a handfull of seed heads once they turn brown, usually this time of year here is zone 7, and rub the seedheads between my hands. If the seeds release readily, I then harvest. However, once harvested you are not through with the task, the harvested seeds will go through a heat cycle if not forced to conclude drying. My earlier drying consisted of shoveling the seeds from one utility trailer to another trailer. That was time consuming and laborious. Later I bought an old peanut wagon. A peanut wagon is made for drying peanuts and has a perforated floor. Under the floor is a large duct like configuration for moving forced air under the perforated floor and up through the product on the floor. This is somewhat like drying beans and corn. For air use and old furnace/heat pump blower fan. The moisture will slowly rise up through the product being dried. Obviously this removes all the work and improves the drying process. I check the dried fescue seed germination to ensure I have a viable end results by using paper towels and a paper plate. This is easy. Take at least 3 to 4 sheets of paper towel and wet them heavily. Put the towels on the paper plate and then place a set number of seeds on the wet towel. Next place a single wet paper towel over the seed. Put this rig on top of the refrigerator. In 3 to 5 days uncover the seed and count the number of seeds that have a root visible and calculate the percentage of germinated seed.
> 
> *PS....Yes I do clip because this effort coincides with fly hatching and pinkeye. I clip to minimze scratching the area near the eyes.*


*
*Have you ever tried using a cover crop crimper on your mature grass?
they are used a lot around here to knock down wheat or other cover crops before planting beans or corn. It basically crimps the stem and causes it to die. I just wander if it would stand back up, that's what it does when a grass harrow is dragged over it.
I like the ideology of a crimper, in that it leaves the residue in place evenly placed unlike a bushhog, which is what I use, that tends to winrow it to one side thus far removing it from its original place.
Then sometimes I wander if it would be just as well to leave it unclipped....all that top growth would really go along way in shading the ground and undergrowth during the heat of summer and maybe allowing for quicker or better regrowth in the fall by keeping the ground cooler.


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## agmantoo

"Have you ever tried using a cover crop crimper on your mature grass?
they are used a lot around here to knock down wheat or other cover crops before planting beans or corn. It basically crimps the stem and causes it to die. I just wander if it would stand back up, that's what it does when a grass harrow is dragged over it.
I like the ideology of a crimper, in that it leaves the residue in place evenly placed unlike a bushhog, which is what I use, that tends to winrow it to one side thus far removing it from its original place.
Then sometimes I wander if it would be just as well to leave it unclipped....all that top growth would really go along way in shading the ground and undergrowth during the heat of summer and maybe allowing for quicker or better regrowth in the fall by keeping the ground cooler. "

I take a different approach with the fescue than farmers growing a grain crop. Fescue is planted as a lawn grass often here and in order to keep the fescue growing and green into the heat of summer it is clipped with a lawn mower and held from producing seedheads. I apply this to awareness to my rotational grazing.

By not allowing the fescue to produce seeds it retards the plant from reaching maturity and going dormant early. An additional benefit from clipping is that the negative part (endophyte) is concentrated in the seedheads and the clipping reduces the consumption of the seeds as the cattle graze. Added to that is my ability to stockpile grass during the cooler Spring growing period for the dry hot July and August ahead. Thatch is also minimized by holding the fescue growth to less than a fully mature plant allowing the cattle to graze the lower portion more readily and often.

As for crushing the stems of the fescue plant and having the same impact as doing the same to cereal crops IMO it will not work. Fescue has the ability to recover from abuse. I have seen fescue fields used for a parking lot at some weekend events and later the same field cut for hay weeks later.


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## arbullet

I work overseas and my job has me on a schedule of 30 days on and 26 days off. When I'm home, I spend pretty much all day with the cattle. While I'm at work they get checked on at least every other day. My little herd consists of 8 lowline cows and a lowline bull. They currently have the run of 23 acres with 16 being pasture, timber is all oak trees.

Is rotational grazing doable in my case? I'm sure I can get my wife to move them weekly when I'm away. 

I'm a few years from retiring and this is just a hobby farm right now.


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## agmantoo

arbullet said:


> I work overseas and my job has me on a schedule of 30 days on and 26 days off. When I'm home, I spend pretty much all day with the cattle. While I'm at work they get checked on at least every other day. My little herd consists of 8 lowline cows and a lowline bull. They currently have the run of 23 acres with 16 being pasture, timber is all oak trees.
> 
> Is rotational grazing doable in my case? I'm sure I can get my wife to move them weekly when I'm away.
> 
> I'm a few years from retiring and this is just a hobby farm right now.


Rotational grazing certainly is doable in your situation IMO and it can be rewarding both financially as well as gratifying. Being able to see your place sustainably support and grow a herd of quality animals, is in my mind, very fulfilling. I have no hired help, however I do have a wife that willingly adjusted to assisting with the cattle. She has become about as equally interested in the cattle as I am. I did have a female neighbor, with no prior cattle experience that has since moved out of state, that volunteered her help to gain experience. She also did a great job.
I would like to see you put your animals on a more frequent rotation schedule. The time it takes to move the animals is only a matter of minutes. At this juncture we spend less that an hour daily to move the 100+ broodcows. Most of the rest of the country is experiencing excessive moisture but we are in a drought. The frequent moves maximize the use of the available grass on our place. I have neighbors that are feeding hay. 
I suggest discussing this with the wife and if she agrees go for it!


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## arbullet

We've been discussing it for the last few months. Just not sure how to go about it, with me being gone and not able to move the electric fence daily. We don't own this place yet but hopefully be closing on it next month, and able to call it ours.

This is my drawing of the place, it's pretty close to scale. Hope y'all are able to decipher it. One thing I didn't put on the drawing is the live oak trees that are along the south fence row. There isn't alot of shade on the north fence.

There is a spring feed creek just to the east of the pasture. There is also a well at the homestead. Once the place is mine I can dig water lines anywhere we need them.


It hasn't had cattle on it in a few years. Does have lots of Dewberry and Sweetgum trees. Some of the grass I've been able to identify is: Fescue, Bermuda and Bahiagrass


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## agmantoo

Nice appearing layout and a promising pasture. Appears to me to be a near ready property to begin rotational grazing. Some rotary cutting of the scrub trees and a soil sample plus a fence charger and polywire and pigtail posts and you should be on your way. Should any issues surface there are a number people here that have demonstrated a willingness to assist.

I read just today that many folks are reluctant to begin converting to rotational grazing as they find the project too "daunting". Obviously there is a lot of interest in converting from conventional cattle production as supported by the number of views reported on this site. I have yet to understand the reluctance. There is nothing complicated with the method. Risks are minimal. The tasks are simple and nearly passive. The investment is minimal. The rewards are financially sound. Where is the downside? Where is it stated that we have to produce cattle in the same manner as Granddad?


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## lgutman

Agman and others this is a wonderful conversation. Took me some time to wade through all this information. I just want to say thank you for your time.

Because of this forum I ran across this video. It is from the Savory Institute's conference. It is a lot to watch but very worth it. 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idYo2yhwXSo[/ame]

Thanks

Larry


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## randyandmegs

agmantoo said:


> "Have you ever tried using a cover crop crimper on your mature grass?
> they are used a lot around here to knock down wheat or other cover crops before planting beans or corn. It basically crimps the stem and causes it to die. I just wander if it would stand back up, that's what it does when a grass harrow is dragged over it.
> I like the ideology of a crimper, in that it leaves the residue in place evenly placed unlike a bushhog, which is what I use, that tends to winrow it to one side thus far removing it from its original place.
> Then sometimes I wander if it would be just as well to leave it unclipped....all that top growth would really go along way in shading the ground and undergrowth during the heat of summer and maybe allowing for quicker or better regrowth in the fall by keeping the ground cooler. "
> 
> I take a different approach with the fescue than farmers growing a grain crop. Fescue is planted as a lawn grass often here and in order to keep the fescue growing and green into the heat of summer it is clipped with a lawn mower and held from producing seedheads. I apply this to awareness to my rotational grazing.
> 
> By not allowing the fescue to produce seeds it retards the plant from reaching maturity and going dormant early. An additional benefit from clipping is that the negative part (endophyte) is concentrated in the seedheads and the clipping reduces the consumption of the seeds as the cattle graze. Added to that is my ability to stockpile grass during the cooler Spring growing period for the dry hot July and August ahead. Thatch is also minimized by holding the fescue growth to less than a fully mature plant allowing the cattle to graze the lower portion more readily and often.
> 
> As for crushing the stems of the fescue plant and having the same impact as doing the same to cereal crops IMO it will not work. Fescue has the ability to recover from abuse. I have seen fescue fields used for a parking lot at some weekend events and later the same field cut for hay weeks later.


 Agmantoo,

What do you think about a flail mower instead of a bush hog in order to leave the residue where its clipped instead of throwing it mostly all to the side? In theory it seems like it would break down faster and more evenly. 

When do you plan on seeding the Marshall and how do you get it to germinate while the fescue is growing as well. I'm not understanding that part or really how to drill anything with the fescue and orchard that I have. When the hot weather really got going this summer I over grazed a test plot twice and also had to clip everything low in order to drill in some sorghum sudan. Then my normal luck happened and the rain stopped. Over the past few weeks we finally got rain and it is taking off now along with the Rays Crazy Mix I tried this year in a test plot. 

Thanks,
Randy


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## agmantoo

Unfortunately I do not have any issues with regrowth on any of my forage. We remain extremely dry. At this juncture I have roughly 30 days of forage remaining. The talking heads on the weather reports state we are in a severe drought.

As for the regrowth from your recent rains you need to make a determination as to whether you have adequate plant population to make ground coverage of the paddocks. Remember this growing fescue has established roots and will tolerate being grazed soon whereas any newly planted forage, if grazed to soon, will be uprooted. If you anticipate the stands are just thin simply broadcast new seed and do a fast rotation over each paddock and let the cattle walk the seed in. I would put out maybe 10 to 15% more seed than usual. I would start planting at the end of August provided moisture is good. Try not to re-graze the newly planted areas and use them for stockpiled forage later. If necessary feed hay to hold off damaging the newly planted forages. As for myself I had rather feed hay in mild weather and conserve stockpiled forage for adverse conditions. Either way you may end up feeding hay and stockpiled grasses. Just when will be your call.

As for the flail mower...I have one and I do not like the manner it leaves the ends of the grass when the flail mower is used. Blades on a flail mower will not stay sharp enough to make a clean cut. Instead the flail mower beats the ends of the plants ragged. The regrowth on these damaged edges do not regrow like when clipped by a sharp blade on a rotary cutter.


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## randyandmegs

What time frame would you estimate to be safe for grazing new grasses? I guess I could have been testing myself this year to a degree by pulling on the plants. I had planned on waiting until this fall to graze what was seeded last fall. That was on one of the areas that was cleared of timber..


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## agmantoo

Again this question will be weather dependent. If the grass is planted early and germinates quickly and we have good growing conditions until Christmas I would expect to put the herd on to the new grass by March. I would want to put them on and take them off after only a short period of grazing. You would want to limit the removal of the top growth only leaving not less than 3 inches of height. You could even consider going on twice daily moves to limit hoof traffic/destruction. I would not apply excessive nitrogen as you will be wanting to establish root growth rather than top growth.


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## ycanchu2

Was wondering if anybody planted any pearl millet or sudangrass this summer?
I was thinking of maybe doing some pearl millet next year. I grew some a few years back in plowed up ground, but haven't tried no-tilling into existing sod.


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## randyandmegs

Here is picture from my front porch this morning. I did several test plots this year of different seeds and mixtures. I drilled this into the pasture after letting the cows overgraze it. It was seeded probably a month late and the day after a rainfall then no rain for close to 6 weeks or I imagine it would have done pretty well. This is Iron clay peas, Sorghum Sudan, Wonderleaf millet, Diakon Radish, some type of brassica and sunflowers. The mix is called Rays Crazy mix created by Ray Archuletta.


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## ycanchu2

randyandmegs said:


> Here is picture from my front porch this morning. I did several test plots this year of different seeds and mixtures. I drilled this into the pasture after letting the cows overgraze it. It was seeded probably a month late and the day after a rainfall then no rain for close to 6 weeks or I imagine it would have done pretty well. This is Iron clay peas, Sorghum Sudan, Wonderleaf millet, Diakon Radish, some type of brassica and sunflowers. The mix is called Rays Crazy mix created by Ray Archuletta.


Most people say to plant around June 1st. When did you plant? I guess you know you will have to be careful around frost time with the sorghum-sudangrass.


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## ramiller5675

I usually plant sorghum-sudangrass after wheat harvest somewhere around late-June (no-tilling it into wheat stubble), but have planted it as late as July 22 with good results. 

Sorghum-sudangrass needs some fertility to grow a decent stand, but I've never fertilized with more than about 30 lb. of N/acre (to avoid any nitrate issues) and with just a little moisture it can easily grow to 4-6 ft. tall within about 45-50 days.

I've tried planting a small plot it in a cover crop mixture and found that sorghum-sudangrass is such an aggressively growing plant that even though I only had about 7-8 lb./acre in the mix, it quickly outgrew almost everything else. If I planted it again in a mix, I'd probably drop the amount planted to under 5 lb./acre.

I'm not so sure it would work to try drilling sorghum-sudangrass into an existing pasture. In my experience, sorghums don't seem to be able to easily out-compete weeds and grasses until they are about 12 inches tall, so I wonder if you'd be able to get a decent stand of sorghum-sudangrass unless you killed almost everything else in your pasture before drilling. Then, once the sorghum-sudangrass started growing, it would shade out and kill most of your perennial grasses in your pasture. Because of that, I think sorghum-sudangrass is more suited to cropland grown as a cover crop, hay crop, or for short term grazing.


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## ycanchu2

ramiller5675 said:


> I usually plant sorghum-sudangrass after wheat harvest somewhere around late-June (no-tilling it into wheat stubble), but have planted it as late as July 22 with good results.
> 
> Sorghum-sudangrass needs some fertility to grow a decent stand, but I've never fertilized with more than about 30 lb. of N/acre (to avoid any nitrate issues) and with just a little moisture it can easily grow to 4-6 ft. tall within about 45-50 days.
> 
> I've tried planting a small plot it in a cover crop mixture and found that sorghum-sudangrass is such an aggressively growing plant that even though I only had about 7-8 lb./acre in the mix, it quickly outgrew almost everything else. If I planted it again in a mix, I'd probably drop the amount planted to under 5 lb./acre.
> 
> I'm not so sure it would work to try drilling sorghum-sudangrass into an existing pasture. In my experience, sorghums don't seem to be able to easily out-compete weeds and grasses until they are about 12 inches tall, so I wonder if you'd be able to get a decent stand of sorghum-sudangrass unless you killed almost everything else in your pasture before drilling. Then, once the sorghum-sudangrass started growing, it would shade out and kill most of your perennial grasses in your pasture. Because of that, I think sorghum-sudangrass is more suited to cropland grown as a cover crop, hay crop, or for short term grazing.


I have a few acres where the fescue/orchardgrass is not as thick as it could be...in other words not solid and in those spots I'm getting crabgrass basically growing in the summer which isn't a bad thing....much better than just bare ground.
But I was thinking of trying some sudangrass or pearl millet no-tilled to maybe fill in those spots. I would think it would take some pretty heavy fertilization for it to completely choke out the cool season perennials.
I just bushhogged some iron weeds and cocklebur today that was pretty thick and there was an amazing amount of fescue growing down in there, of course we have had an abundance of rain this year too.


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## ramiller5675

My pastures are all warm season grasses, so I don't have much experience with cool season grasses in pastures besides something like winter wheat pasture. 

It's possible that millet or sorghum-sudangrass might work in a fescue type of pasture.


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## randyandmegs

ycanchu2 said:


> Most people say to plant around June 1st. When did you plant? I guess you know you will have to be careful around frost time with the sorghum-sudangrass.


 I planted in July. The seed company rep came out and said May would have been better for our area. I certainly would have gotten a lot more rain then. We had a lot of rain in the area in July, that just happened to have missed us by a few miles 6 or 7 times but that's the way it goes with new seed in the ground, either no rain or gully washers on this sloped land.


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## ycanchu2

ramiller5675 said:


> My pastures are all warm season grasses, so I don't have much experience with cool season grasses in pastures besides something like winter wheat pasture.
> 
> It's possible that millet or sorghum-sudangrass might work in a fescue type of pasture.


I thought there was a lot of fescue in Oklahoma, but maybe I'm thinking of another state.
Here in Ky., the cool season grasses like fescue and orchardgrass start slowing down when it starts to get hot. I would probably have more competition from the WSG's like crabgrass and johnsongrass. I also have a summer grass called caucasion bluestem that was brought in many years ago from somewhere.
I like the pearl millet because of the no worries about prussic acid like the sorghums have.


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## ramiller5675

There might be fescue in Eastern or SE Oklahoma, but in my area it's mostly native prairie grasses like big bluestem, little bluestem, etc., bermuda grass, or crabgrass.

I can't explain why, but one of my best plantings was one year when I just mixed some leftover old seed in the drill. I ended up with a mix of pearl millet, a couple of different varieties of grain sorghum, and some sorghum-sudangrass.


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## ChocolateMouse

Just wondering, since there's a huge number of pages to go through, have we heard back from the OP in the past year about their success or not with rotational grazing, culling their herd for a smaller size and improving their pasture? I'd like to know how it worked out for them, years later.


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## sassafras manor

To be honest I can recall seeing any posts from them in the past couple of years. Agmantoo helped them out quite a bit early on so he may know more.


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## agmantoo

I sent a private message recently to the lady that started this post but as of today I have not received a reply.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo...

Would you have any other suggestions instead of raising the wire and having lanes? I will be brining in and out a lot of cattle in the near future as the price continues to lower. I had thoughts like having them walk over the wire by covering it with something, making many more gates ( probably wouldn't work very well) or just leave it like it is and hope I can train the new cattle fast enough. What are your suggestions on this? I don't even know if I can purchase all the cows I need that are accustomed to electric fence.

Randy
Columbus NC


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## agmantoo

I suggest that you build a containment lot to condition the animals to being on your place. It is a sickening feeling to off load animals and watch them head off in all directions other than where you want them to go. Include in the holding area room to feed and water the animals for up to a couple of weeks to get them conditioned to their new home. I like the new woven high tensile wire and I would want the fence tall enough to keep "jumpers" from making it over the top. You can install some electrical wire inside the holding lot to get the cattle conditioned to electrical fencing. Even after having the animals for a couple of weeks I would slowly introduce only the calm ones to the existing herd. The new animals will adapt to your setup from the home herd animals. I always want calm animals that respect my privacy and I respect their space. I do not have a shock probe and I limit being overly vocal, shouting or startling. However, the herd knows that I am in control. PS.....train the animals to come to you when you call them.


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## medski

Well, it has been a busy fall! My wife and I purchased a small herd of registered lowlife black angus, six cow calve pairs that are rebred,one bull unrelated,built lots of fence, installed waterer,mineral feeder, bought a band saw mill last spring and built separating stalls and 99 percent efficient round bale feeder! I was able to do some rotational grazing and it has worked great! I would still be grazing as the weather has been great, but I put a new seeding in last spring and won't graze it until next spring so it doesn't get damage at its in its young stage. My fence is peeled black locust post and 4 foot woven wire with one strand barbed wire at the top. Fort Knox like I know but I sleep good at night knowing my cattle are safe and sound! I purchased enough hay to feed all winter. Cows will calve in May and I purchased a unrelated bull and a unrelated bull calve for future bull. I love the size and temperament of these cattle! They are like puppy dogs following me around! I'm too old for anything big that could run me over!


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## medski

I have also been wondering what has been going on with the Georgia Peach that started this post with her question about rotational grazing!


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## agmantoo

Well, it has been a busy fall! My wife and I purchased a small herd of registered *lowlife* black angus,

You are being a bit harsh on the cattle aren't you? :goodjob:


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## medski

Yeah , I'm sure the fence is over the top but my stress level is down! Haha!


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## medski

Still thinking about doing a quick graze over the new seeding! What do you think? It has come on great!


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## medski

When do you band your bull calves?


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## agmantoo

Within 3 days after being born I band the bull calves


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## agmantoo

damp, misty, rainy makes for days one questions about being in the cattle business.







However decent green grass will cheer everyone!


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## agmantoo

I had a discussion recently regarding cattle eating fescue grass and an individual wanted to argue that his cattle would not eat fescue grass. Just a few days back I took a pic of a calf that was 7 days old standing near its mom and BOTH were eating/nibbling fescue. My cattle have never had any forage to speak of other than fescue, rye grass, clover and a little volunteer mixed weeds, grasses and legumes. The offspring grow up with the herd and they all eat the same forages. I do believe that early grazing is picked up from the older animals. Is this early grazing contributed by learned observation or from genetics? I do think that cattle raised on fescue can tolerate fescue and its associated issues better than cattle that are abruptly switched to fescue. Below is the calf nibbling fescue at 7 days of age. Today I saw the same calf eating greater mouthfuls. She is now 9 days old! PS...I have never seen cattle that refused to eat fescue. Has anyone else observed cattle not eating fescue?







[/URL]


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## ycanchu2

If they won't eat fescue now, its because he probably don't have any to speak of. It should be very sweet and palatable this time of year.
My cattle don't seem to want it too much in the middle of the summer especially if they have other stuff to graze.


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## Skip

agmantoo said:


> ... I do believe that early grazing is picked up from the older animals. Is this early grazing contributed by learned observation or from genetics? ...


I don't have much experience with cattle, yet with the cows I had I observed: The first winter the two cows would not touch snow. The next winter they were eating it perhaps because the calf liked it? So I presumed it was a learnt behavior. Also when I took them for walks, one would prefer the grasses and the other preferred to eat the leaves off of branches. :shrug: Maybe one cow alone can afford to be fussy but as the herd gets larger they eat better?


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## agmantoo

Some more pics.

We suffered a 3 month drought here at my location. As I mentioned earlier for the last two months I have had to venture away from feeding grass on a rotational manner to feeding silage. Hay at the volume I needed was not justifiable. Within ~ the last 30 days we have received rain and I continued with minimal silage as the grass reestablished itself. I read frequently that it is necessary to apply commercial fertilizer and it is a waste of time and money to drag harrow pasture/paddocks. Using a homemade harrow and no commercial fertilizer and no reseeding I want to share the results. The herd is back on grass only and I have IMO ample stockpiled grass to get through the Winter.

The first pic is of a grazed lane and the manure remaining following the herd being moved.





The pic above shows the lane after it recovered. The right half is the lane picture above and to the left of the partition fence is future grazing.



This pic is part of the farm where I am amassing fescue for stockpiling. The grass in the forefront was also part of the pictured manured lane that was recently grazed.



For the last 33 days I have been grazing ~92 brood cows, 2 bulls and 42 calves from where I was standing when the pic was taken up the lane and the paddock area to the right of the lane to the distant building, roughly 32 acres. NO hay was fed and the the last of silage was consumed weeks ago. Prices for feeder calves are down 30 to 40% from a year ago. For those that want to remain in business with a sustainable and profitable low cost operation should give this method consideration IMO.


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## gimpyrancher

You live in some spectacular scenery. The animals help the picture if that is possible. :bowtie:


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## ycanchu2

So you are giving them about an acre a day?


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## agmantoo

Yes, I was allocating about an acre plus per day due to the late rain and the stressed grass having to recover. From the pics you can see how short the grass is as it has been regrowing following the drought for only a matter of weeks. Currently I am beginning to back off on the area allocated as the grass is getting taller. I am also holding off on the taller/better grass for cold weather. Provided Winter does not extend itself later than typically, I feel that I should make it through to Spring growth without supplement feed. Just with the cattle coming off the corn silage their body condition has improved. Going with the silage was a mistake but I had very little to choose from. My lack of experience with feeding corn silage did not help either. I was feeding ~ 3000 lbs per day (30 lbs/brood cow) as a complete ration (I had read that was correct but I learned later it was inadequate according to dairy folks). I erected a hay storage building in 2014 to enable me to have purchased hay stored to get me through a crisis. In hindsight I should have spent the money on irrigation. No hay was available. The drought started early and lasted through the entire hay growing season here. I am now dealing with mud. Over the Christmas holiday period my place received 6.64 inches of rain in a 3 day span.


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## ycanchu2

I've probably asked this before at some point ,but how long a time do you give for recovery on average during spring/summer growing season? 

At one farm I was doing about 60 to 80 days recovery....this farm has the best grass and I may be able to get all the way thru the winter without hay or very close.
The other farm is more fertile but I was rotating thru about 35 to 40 days. I'll have to start feeding hay there in a couple of weeks.
The only management difference is recovery times.


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

I do not have the answer to your question at this time. I do know that I grow most of my grass in March, April and May and then again September, October and November. There will some additional growth in June and December. All this growth is impacted by timely rain. Moving the herd daily I will run paddock sizes from 1/2 acre up to 1 acre depending on abundance or lack thereof of grass and weather conditions. I usually am running ~100 brood cows and 2 bulls and all calves up to 500 lbs on 141 acres of paddocks unless there is a great market for smaller calves. I try to move cattle when there are 3 inches of grass remaining and I do not let cattle back graze. Doing as described I get fast regrowth as the roots still provide nutrients to promote top growth and the foliage is long enough to absorb sun. Distributed manure allows the full stands of grass to get uniform growth and hold weed/trash plants suppressed. I have lots of earth worms that also contribute to good growing conditions by holding the PH from being to acidic.


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## JLS Cattle

Anyone else moving cows in the dark like I do? 

I move them each evening around 7:00pm, and this time of year, it might as well be midnight as dark as it is. I guess it is not ideal, but it is all I can do because of my full time job.

I can't move the old backfence each day as I assume most do, so I have to set up all my paddocks for the week on the weekend and just move them over each night in the lights of the 4 wheeler. It just means lots of posts, reels, and twine.

Anyone else in the same boat? Is there any disadvantage to doing this? The cows seem to go right to eating and exploring their new paddock as if they would in the middle of the day.

BTW, Agmantoo, I only have you and this thread to blame for this. You got me into this mess. But seriously, thanks for sharing all of your knowledge. Been at this for about 4 years now, silently following this thread and slowing converting others into believers of rotational grazing.


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## gwithrow

I am not moving in the dark, however the cows seem to respond to whatever routine we establish..and are always glad for fresh grass...this year we have grass for the next six weeks anyway, with all of the rain there was a bit more regrowth for December than usual so I am hopeful that this may give us a little head start for spring..

In the winter I am not using a back line for every move like we do in the faster growing seasons...the pastures are divided into large paddocks...which are subdivided daily depending on grass conditions and the needs of the herd...the line is just moved forward until the paddock has been covered...it is more of a strip grazing plan for winter only...once the whole paddock has been grazed then it is closed off for recovery...usually that is a ninety day recovery....in the fast growing seasons we use a back line always..

We have been doing this now for several years..my old timer neighbors think it is way too much work, however they do not see me moving hay daily all winter long either...and my fat happy cows do not complain...

I too am grateful for all the shared knowledge here on this forum...


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## ycanchu2

I don't think a backfence is critical in the winter. imo you can go a few days then backfence unlike warm weather when grass is growing fast.


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## agmantoo

The frost depth here is 6 inches. We have an abundance of red clay that is prone to soil compaction and erosion. With the limited area I allocate each day and the number of hooves treading the soil I restrict back grazing to improve the soil conditions and to reduce water runoff. I am not moving cattle in the dark but I am working in mud, rain and now cold. I never tire of moving over my farm and appreciating the views. Usually I am thinking about what changes I can make to improve the place and production thereof. I like to think that the folks that visit here and share their efforts and accomplishments feel the same way. Hopefully each of you are rewarded for your work and the benefits that result. Cattle prices have dropped off but we should still be profitable and comforted that we can sustain our cattle endeavors as long as anyone and still make some money. I also like going to the bank knowing there will be something left over for me.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> The frost depth here is 6 inches. We have an abundance of red clay that is prone to soil compaction and erosion. With the limited area I allocate each day and the number of hooves treading the soil I restrict back grazing to improve the soil conditions and to reduce water runoff. I am not moving cattle in the dark but I am working in mud, rain and now cold. I never tire of moving over my farm and appreciating the views. Usually I am thinking about what changes I can make to improve the place and production thereof. I like to think that the folks that visit here and share their efforts and accomplishments feel the same way. Hopefully each of you are rewarded for your work and the benefits that result. Cattle prices have dropped off but we should still be profitable and comforted that we can sustain our cattle endeavors as long as anyone and still make some money. I also like going to the bank knowing there will be something left over for me.


 I've noticed in past pics you use a ATV to do your moves is that correct?
I use a ATV also, but don't like it in a pouring rain or freezing temps. Getting to all parts of the farm in all types of weather is one of my biggest obstacles. I bought a Jeep Liberty 4x4 last year for extreme weather conditions, but there are some places under muddy conditions I dare not take it.
So, the other day I took the plunge and bought a Polaris ranger 4x4 with a fully enclosed cab. my neighbor has the next of kin Polaris razor and it will truly go anywhere. I expect it will go in all conditions.


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## FraserV

Wow, this is incredibly interesting. I'm wondering if you could lend your expertise to my situation. 

I'm planning on fencing 3 acres of good land and am preparing to raise 2-3 head on it. How would you manage such a small plot of land for beef cows if at all?

Thanks in advance 
Devon


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## agmantoo

I am unfamiliar with the forage and the production capabilities that your land can produce. However, if you will make a sketch of the perimeter of the land you plan to use and list any improvements such as storage building and water source along with shade and shelter buildings you plan to use I will provide a reply as to how I would layout the parcel for rotational grazing. Do you have any idea as to how much land is necessary to support a cow at your location?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

Yes I do use an ATV. Actually I have two. Both are Hondas and they are getting old. I have a golf cart top mounted on one and I have some vinyl sides and a windshield that attach. The other is just a plain 4x4. Either will go anywhere on the farm except for some of the hills which are too steep to travel for safety reasons. I did turn one over a few years back. Both have been dependable and cheap to keep.


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## stockdogcompany

Devon,

2 or 3 head of what? Brood cows that will have calves? 500 lb weaners that you will put growing season only gain on and then sell?

800 pound long yearlings that you will grass finish?

What is your goal? Do you want to work year round? Or just green season?
Do you want to produce food for your family? Do you want to move fence 3 times a day or once a week?

What is your rainfall, grass growing length, and primary forage types?

Give us some feedback and we can help you more.


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## Gravytrain

stockdogcompany said:


> Give us some feedback and we can help you more.


Welcome back sdc.


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## stockdogcompany

awwwwwwwww shucks.


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## FraserV

stockdogcompany said:


> Devon,
> 
> 2 or 3 head of what? Brood cows that will have calves? 500 lb weaners that you will put growing season only gain on and then sell?
> 
> 800 pound long yearlings that you will grass finish?
> 
> What is your goal? Do you want to work year round? Or just green season?
> Do you want to produce food for your family? Do you want to move fence 3 times a day or once a week?
> 
> What is your rainfall, grass growing length, and primary forage types?
> 
> Give us some feedback and we can help you more.


Sorry, I was not clear. I want to raise some steers on it. One cow would be for our small family and the other(s) would hopefully go into paying off the fence. I'd prefer to move the interior fence a couple times a week vs every day but I recognize that 3 acres isn't a lot of land and more work may be required to use it efficiently.

I'll work on getting some more answers regarding my specific area. I'll be back!

Thanks guys 
Devon


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## medski

I was moving fence in the dark at Christmas time then we got a foot of snow. Feeding hay now here in Michigan! I have stock pile but the first snow melted a little then froze. Then we got about eight inches of snow on top of that. So I will wait for a good thaw.


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## medski

I also use a quad to move fence! Dreaming about a side by side or a mini truck!


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## stockdogcompany

Hey Medski!

So you went for it and grazed stockpile in the great white north. Welcome to the club of those who do the exact opposite of the coffee shop fools. How many days of hay feeding did that save you versus conventional wisdom for your area?


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## stockdogcompany

Agman,

Have you given any thought to broadcasting some brassica's into those recently pugged areas? Some grazing collards or purple top turnip or daikon radishes might give some extra early growth and catch some nutrients from any excessive root pruning do to last summers drought.

I often do this on stressed paddocks, and have reaped good rewards. Looks funky when everything bolts in June or July, but I take extra forage and soil organic matter every chance I can get!


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## agmantoo

stockdogcompany
Several years ago I tried turnips and radishes. The cattle were slow to adapt to eating them. In the Spring, the turnips rotted and the stench was rank. I appreciate the recommendation but I have yet to find anything that comes close to the endophyte infected KY31 fescue.

This grass in the foreground was planted ~2 months ago in Nov. This was subsoil, hauled in for the building fill dirt, with only a light mix of topsoil blended on the surface. On the left half background of the pic that area was grazed in Dec. The bare area in the center is the sacrifice area where I fed the corn silage while waiting of the drought to break. It has been to wet to do anything to the bare area.








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## medski

I got by almost to the New Year grazing then winter set in.


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## jonchrs1

Rotational Grazing is easy!


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## gwithrow

We need to take down our interior semi permanent electric lines in a rented pasture...i need some ideas for the most efficient way to manage the metal lines...i would like to reuse these in another loacation so i dont want to just bunch it up...

It was easy to unroll but doesnt seem as simple to reroll..surely someone has done this before and can save me some time by sharing a good method?

I will spare you all the details of my frustration with the adjoining neighors cows who jump over to eat my stockpiled grass....and said neighbors suggestion that i pay for a new fence....please note that our cows are not interested in licking the dirt that his pastures have become.....owner can soon just rent to this neighbor, and then see the color of the dirt on owners side


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## randyandmegs

I sent you an email on a wire roller/unroller topic from another group. I haven't tried it but would a spinning jenny work if the someone on the other end could hold some tension on it while it is being taken back up?


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## gwithrow

Thanks..i think the spinning jenny might work...might could tie something as a drag on the end to create tension


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## ramiller5675

There is a "rewind hoop" available as an option for most spinning jennys that is designed to help roll up high-tensile fencing. 

Most places that sell spinning jennys and other electric fencing supplies usually also sell the rewind hoops.


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## agmantoo

Hi

I have rerolled as much as several coils at one time when reworking my layout over the years. You need one of the large reels used by cable companies when they install their lines. Make a holder for the reel to get the reel elevated to where when you but a pipe through center that you can turn the reel. I use a drill bit to drill a small hole only large enough to push the high tensile into letting the friction hold the wire. With the core/center of the reel horizontal use your hand to rotate the spool. Doing so will re-reel the high tensile wire rather quickly. I crimp the ends of the wire each time I come to one. This allows unreeling without difficulty. With the wire to be re-reeled lying on the ground that friction is enough to keep the wire snug to the reel. You turn the reel with one hand and use the other hand to "level wind" as the wire as is fed onto the spool. If you have a round hay bale handler for a tractor you may be able to place the spool on the spear and turn the tractor 90 degrees to the wire being spooled. I find it very easy to salvage wire doing as stated.


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## masseyandy

I spent a couple afternoons with extension cord reels and would love to see a picture of what you have.


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## agmantoo

I am having issues with my phone and camera. I will post a pic when I get this fixed This reel has about 4 feet sides and roughly a 12 to 16 inch core. I have a welded frame for supporting the reel and I suspend the reel on the fixture with a section of scrap 2 inch schedule 40 pipe.


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## stockdogcompany

http://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=1703

I do something similar to this.


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## agmantoo

Homemade reel for rewinding high tensile wire for future reuse. Works great and will store and later permit unreeling of hundreds of pounds of wire. Cost was minimal.


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## masseyandy

Thank you


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## 92utownxj

I wanted get some ideas from everyone. I've included a map I made, hopefully it shows up. The 2 parcels are my property, 31 acres in all, the field is 6 acres. There's a big creek in the back and the ox bow pond. The house and barn are up on a hill, the rest slops down to the woods, pond, and field. The field is wet in the winter, but by spring it dries out for the whole summer. The wet spots can be seen by the darker color. No ideal, but it works. We have dairy goats and layer chickens. 

The red line is permanent fence. Near the barn it's woven wire with a strand of electric. The rest in high tensile electric. 6 joule charger, over 5,000 volts in the fence. We've never had a problem with escaping, they respect it. We also have a llama in with the goats. The blue lines are how I rotated the goats last year. 3 strands of poly twine on reels with step in posts. I had 6 areas I moved them to keeping them in an area for about a week. The area from the barn to the field is in the woods. It was a sacrifice area since we milk twice a day. I milk early in the morning, the goats spend the morning in the field, they'd come up in the shade all afternoon, I'd milk, then they go down for the evening. 

We have the layers up by the house in electric netting, and we plan to put them in the field behind the netting after the goats are in an area.

This spring I'm moving the high tensile wire to include the whole field, the yellow line. 

My main question is about the best layout for rotation. Now, there is a lane at the back by the pond. It's dry all the time. Do I run long, narrow strips with the poly twine off that? Should I make a lane along the south then split the field in half with a lane north to south? That would make smaller, squarer paddocks. 

The area northeast of the pond to the creek is all open woods with lots of vegetaion. I don't plan to put any animals there, but my grandpa used to run 5-10 cows in all of it. The inside of the oxbow, the northeast, and the field.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, 

Is there a point coming up in which you stop dragging your pastures in order to not damage new spring growth coming up or does it have no effect? My drag is a new 12' wide Preifert 3 pt mount that can be pretty aggressive. 

Randy
Columbus NC


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## agmantoo

Weather permitting I try to drag the paddocks within 3 to 5 days after grazing. My drag harrow is not overly aggressive, it is homemade and I purposely made it to not be aggressive. Can you not adjust your drag to where it is not destructive?


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## randyandmegs

I think the adjustment was to turn it around but this is my 2nd drag for the attachment. The first one kept coming off when I used it 2 years ago to cover newly seeded areas in fairly rocky soil and Preifert sent me a whole new 12' drag mat free of charge and we heated and closed the loops so it could not pop off. I can keep it from being so aggressive somewhat by lifting the 3 pt hitch but even at that wondered if it would hurt the new growth coming soon.


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## agmantoo

I have not witnessed my drag doing any damage then again I may have a much more establish root system with the age of my plantings of fescue. Fescue is known for its deep rooting characteristic. Even after a lot of damage on a wet paddock and rather deep trampling of the cattle hooves recovery to me is rapid. I have grass that was grazed 1 week ago that is showing recovery today. Is there any chance that your tractor is creating soil compaction?


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Weather permitting I try to drag the paddocks within 3 to 5 days after grazing. My drag harrow is not overly aggressive, it is homemade and I purposely made it to not be aggressive. Can you not adjust your drag to where it is not destructive?


Whats your drag made out of?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2

I have already taken care of the herd today. The farm is separate from the farm where I live. Tomorrow when I go to take care of the animals I will try to remember to take a pic of the drag harrow.


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## agmantoo

Here should be 3 pics, a before dragging, and after dragging and a pic of the homemade manure drag. The unit is in 3 sections each about 6 ft 6 inches wide and front to back each of the flat bars pivot. Those are repurposed small I beams and the front is a schedule 80 steel pipe. The pivots are on grade 8 bolts and the bar stock is 1 inch thick. I plan to later add skid plates for wear protection. The unit can be flipped over and used on either side.


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## ycanchu2

Looks good. Do you drag according to certain moon signs? The old timers used to say to spread manure in the dark of the moon and it would go in the ground good, spreading in the light of the moon and it would stay on top of the ground.


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## agmantoo

I drag when there is manure to be spread and the ground moisture is not excessive causing soil compaction by the tractor. I want the manure to not hinder sun getting to the new growth. I like a uniform recovery of the grass also.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo I have been reading this thread and agree with your opinions, I was wondering how you would set up our place for rotational grazing? I have tried to rotational graze a couple years ago but have gave up due to only having three cows and my wife and I building our new house. I live in okla and am in growing zone 7. Prairie grass is my base forage, my soil is red clay and I have very little top soil. I have planted k31 fescue, marshal rye grass and arrow leaf clover in the last 5 years but have little to show from my plantings due to poor management. I walked my front pasture yesterday and see quite a bit of fescue greening up although stunted by conventional grazing, it is there so I plan to keep all cattle off of it to help get a good root system going. I would really appreciate any recommendations and comments you have, I have included a photo that outlines the 160 acres that we have, hopefully you can make out the fence lines and the elec fence we have installed. I'll try to post a pic of them marked if needed. PS we have about 3200 ft of water lines ran in the pasture basically heading straight west and south of the barn/corral area. Thank you


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## agmantoo

Ryno10,

I too am in growing zone 7. Unfortunately I cannot tell a great deal from the Pic. I can tell you the first thing I would do is to get a soil sample taken in order to get the nutrient level and the PH as correct as the budget will permit. If at all possible I would try to determine if there is any source of natural animal fertilizer available. Chicken litter would be first choice but I would go with whatever may be available. It is imperative to get the forages established prior to putting animals on to start grazing. From the pic I can detect some ponds so water seems to be present but with the red soils you need to be careful not to get soil compaction. I am very strict regarding NOT putting machinery on wet ground. Frost depth is shallow at my location and once ground here has been compacted it becomes nearly impossible to correct. Like you have observed, I am also seeing activity with fescue growth. Not being that familiar with your location can you tell me if Ladino clovers perform well in your area? If so I strongly suggest that you do some frost seeding very soon. You can grow the nitrogen your forages need cheaply. I cannot make recommendations regarding the prairie grass. Your place looks good judging from the view posted and IMO you should have success with the project. Hard work and patience should get you positioned for rotational grazing. It takes good management and 3 to 5 years to get forage growing here on poor ground. Would you be planning to supplement feed with hay during Winter or would you try to get through cold weather with stockpiled grass?


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## Ryno10

I agree about the soil test, and soon will take samples. I haven't tried and don't know if ladino clover would grow here, the arrow leaf that I have planted has done pretty well,but after the first year of plantings it slacks off considerably. I am aware that clover is an annual, but we had a lot of seed heads so I expected more than I had. I run cattle with my dad and he has about 10 head,so overall this place is under stocked, so I figure now is the time for pasture improvement. I am wanting to grow my herd and be profitable. With our cow numbers low,while I've worked on my house we took steps backward from beginning to get in to rotational grazing back to conventional grazing. I have been using hay for winter feeding and will continue until I can get my pasture where it needs to be. I have also tried to use the hay to try to improve my soil and hay is helping,slowly. This red clay is pretty compacted imo. I don't really know of a quick fix for that. The prairie grass I have is at its best in June July and Aug so if I can imitate your fescue growing practices hopefully I can work twards year round grazing. What grasses did you start off with on your place?


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## Ryno10

I plan to start off improving the north west part of my place from the pic, that is where I observed the fescue. I have a water line that runs east and west through the center of the open area just on the south side of the small pond. There isn't really any shade alongside the road so any recommendations of fence layout and comments would be appreciated.


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## agmantoo

Just a few general suggestions for rotational grazing layouts from my viewpoint

Have a good perimeter fence.

Layout the interior partitions to create long rectangles that can be bushhogged efficiently. Use polywire to reduce the size/length of the paddocks to match the forage needs of the cattle. Do not permit backgrazing where possible.

Have the cattle water accessible to where the animals do not need to walk more than 800 feet to access water.

Have a few permanent lanes that function as both equipment and traffic lanes as well as sacrificial paddocks. This will reduce overall soil compaction and conserve forage paddocks when feeding hay. This area can do double duty when sorting, holding/staging or working animals and preparing to sell.

Use the sacrificial lanes during times when you take the cattle long distances to shade or water or when you may need to move the herd a distance to new grass.

Create a sacrificial area near hay storage and an all weather road for your convenience when feeding hay or have need to hold the animals for transport.

Have the necessary machinery to bushhog, spread manure, provide your personal transportation to the paddocks for frequent moves, spray cattle for insects as well as spray trash weeds should it become necessary, prepare to move mineral/salt feeders, etc.

Review the above with other family members to see if they are in concert with your intentions. Everyone involved needs to be on board,


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## Ryno10

I have a question about managing the fescue that I already have. With it basically just coming up like I just sowed it, how should I manage it throughout this year? I want to use it to extend my grazing into the winter 2016/ 2017 should I clip this spring then go dormant this summer the stockpile in fall or let it just grow until next fall?


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## Ryno10

Thank you agmantoo, you have a wealth of knowledge!!!!!


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## agmantoo

I lost my internet and power yesterday when the wind storm came through plus my reply that I had partially prepared.

The sequence I would follow for the fescue boost is as follows.

Right now get the soil sample done and apply lime if the sample indicates a need for lime. Get the PH to where it will be at least 5.8 ASAP.

Frost seed a red clover that is known to produce in your area. Use the minimum seeding rate recommended. We do not want the new clover to compete with the fescue.

Apply fertilizer if the soil sample indicates a need. Do not apply the full rate of nitrogen recommended. Instead apply only about 1/2 the nitrogen at this time. We are wanting to suppress top growth and encourage root growth with the fescue at this juncture.

Should you have access to a sod drill use it to drill 20 lbs/acre of KY31 common fescue provided the soil temp at seeding depth is 38F or warmer and the ground is not too wet to get on. Remember we do not want soil compaction on the red dirt. When you get a stand of grass established we will discuss the grazing recommendations. Any questions, ask.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo I sent you a pm


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## Ryno10

I attached a few pic's of what I have growing now and hopefully you can see a better view of the area I'm wanting to work on.The pics are the fescue I have greening up,and an overview looking west.


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## Ryno10

These are a couple heifers I saved as replacements, any comments would be appreciated.


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## Ryno10

I have a couple questions regarding your cowherd when you first started rotational grazing. You said you started with 30 heifers, how long did it take to breed the cowherd to small frame efficient cows,and did you use extra small frame bulls at first? How long did you keep that first set of heifers until you replaced them with their daughters? When did you start not weaning your replacement heifers and why? When did you stop giving vaccinations and why? If you were to start over again what would you do differently regarding your cowherd and why? How long does it take a cowherd to adapt to fescue? What types of grass did you have when you started rotational grazing, and what's most important, establishing pasture or establishing a cowherd that will perform on your pasture?


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> I have a couple questions regarding your cowherd when you first started rotational grazing. You said you started with 30 heifers, how long did it take to breed the cowherd to small frame efficient cows,and did you use extra small frame bulls at first? How long did you keep that first set of heifers until you replaced them with their daughters? When did you start not weaning your replacement heifers and why? When did you stop giving vaccinations and why? If you were to start over again what would you do differently regarding your cowherd and why? How long does it take a cowherd to adapt to fescue? What types of grass did you have when you started rotational grazing, and what's most important, establishing pasture or establishing a cowherd that will perform on your pasture?


You said you started with 30 heifers, how long did it take to breed the cowherd to small frame efficient cows,and did you use extra small frame bulls at first?


I bought the heifers from a group of feeder heifers sold at the local sale barn. When the heifers reached around 750 lbs I borrowed a bull from a friend. The bull stayed with me for nearly 6 months as the friend was low on grass. The bull was an unregistered angus and was around a frame 5 size. I sold the calves he sired and got all my investment back that paid for the heifers. I next located a bull sale that advertised registered angus and I bought a bull but with no papers. Up to this point all the animals grazed endophyte fescue. I made it a habit to retain smaller height and shorter length heifers. I had raised a few horses and I realized that smaller horses seemed to stay fat easier than tall long ones. A seasoned horse trader verified that also in a conversation. I had also read that in an article on Morgan horses.


How long did you keep that first set of heifers until you replaced them with their daughters? 

I kept the first heifers 4 or 5 years retaining the heifers that were the daughters of the more efficient cows and the cows that were more docile.


When did you start not weaning your replacement heifers and why? 

I found that it took a lot less of my time if I only had a single herd to manage and it worked better rotating them. I spend less than an hour, sometimes less than 30 minutes, depending on where the herd is or how far I need to move them. The herd will come to me if I call them, they are very calm also.

When did you start not weaning your replacement heifers and why? I gave up separating the calves from the herd for my convenience and to save time. My logic was that wild animals don't separate their offspring and why should I separate the calves. I neuter all the bull calves and have had almost no problems. The heifers seem to be breeding size before they start to cycle. Once a female calf reaches ~70 percent of adult weight they are the size to breed IMO.

I am going to make a second post......


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## agmantoo

When did you stop giving vaccinations and why? 

I never started giving vaccinations on a schedule. I have only had a vet on the place once. I had bought a registered small frame bull and he arrived with a foot problem and needed attention. By that time I did have handling equipment and I could retain the bull. The vet I called did not show up but did send a hoof trimmer that knew what to do for the bull and provided the hoof trimmer with meds. The bill I got was for Vet services. I decided then that I was not going to need future Vet services unless the entire herd was in jeopardy. It is cheaper for me to keep the animals healthy with good feed and my care. If I cannot cure a problem I can bury the animal cheaper!

 If you were to start over again what would you do differently regarding your cowherd and why? 

I do not regret starting with the sale barn heifers. I do regret not getting better bulls initially. By better I am not meaning registered, I mean better suited to my application. I have been reading info on bull selection and have come to believe most of the statistics collected and touted by bull producers is most smoke and mirrors. Have you ever noticed all the statistics collected by race horse breeders? Have you ever noticed how few of these studs produce offspring that consistently win races. There are too many sperm present to get the sperm you want to be the one that produces the ideal animal you want. Having a closed herd is my preference and bringing in a bull best suits my situation. The closed herd will be conditioned to your farm, avoids introduction to outside diseases, the animals are adapted to your place, your habits and the care and feed you provide.

How long does it take a cowherd to adapt to fescue?
Most cattle here in NC are accustomed to fescue. Fescue covers more acres of pasture in the US than any other grass.

what's most important, establishing pasture or establishing a cowherd that will perform on your pasture?

Without feed (good, plentiful, growth producing grass over a long duration is paramount) is totally necessary if you want to be profitable. The bulk of the expense, up to 80%, in being a beef producer is incurred from feed cost. If you are in the cattle business for hobby then it doesn't matter since you can buy feed. Controlling your feed cost will determine your profitability and is about the only thing you have any influence on. This is where you need to concentrate. You may have observed that cattle prices currently are considerably below where they were. I enjoyed the calf prices when they were above $3.50/lb and now they are less than $2/lb. I was profitable then and I expect to remain profitable now. You too can get in this position. PS...you do know that the cattle folks around me think I am a weirdo since I do not do what their grandfather did with raising cattle? I also don't sit around the coffee shops and farm supply stores gripping about losing money on my cattle.


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## agmantoo

Why red clover over white?

The intent is to get the fescue established and producing grass in quantity. It is possible when the needs of the soil get corrected for the fescue to become suppressed by clover. Red clover will grow tall and upright whereas white clover will tend to grow low and laterally. We want the existing poor stand of fescue and any newly seeded fescue to thrive without competition, hence the red clover is the clover of choice at this juncture. Later we may add the white clover but not now.


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## Ryno10

Well, I got 5 out of 10 acres planted today I'll finish the k31 fescue and red clover planting tomorrow . I also plan to take soil samples tomorrow and get them sent off next week.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, thanks for answering my questions, I have plenty more.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, could you post some pics of your shade that is fenced in? Is shade being more than 1100 ft away an issue? With cattle being that far form shade, would they continually graze the lane and not the daily alotment?


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## agmantoo

I do not have a pic specific to your question. My layout is such that I have natural shade usually close to a paddock that they cattle is grazing. I am not a golfer but I have had visitors to say the place reminds them of a golf course with the paddocks being fairways and the shade the treed areas in between the fairways. In Winter I typically move cattle in the heat of the day for my comfort. In Summer, I usually move in the late evening for the same reason. I move the herd only once per day. In Winter the herd doesn't need shade and they may be in the open (paddock area) or near the minerals or water. In Summer, the herd will eat at moving time and maybe eat into night then they will go to water and shade. When I arrive for the evening move, they will leave the shade to come out to graze. Remember, I am only allocating what *I* am giving them to eat. They realize that if they miss chow time, the pickings may not be the best. My main lane is only used for major moves or to create a route to water to prevent back grazing. I will permit limited back traveling over grazed areas if it is a no growing period and the soil is not overly wet. I never want to muck up a paddock if it can be avoided. There will be times here where one does what has to be done or cannot be avoided. As the herd becomes accustomed to rotational grazing the herdsman also becomes accustomed to what can or has to do. The herd bought us a Crustbuster sod drill in 2014 and that has helped recover the few damaged paddocks that do occur. Do recall, your interior partitions are minimal and if you error it is not all that difficult to make a correction. IMO it is unlikely any two people would replicate an identical layout.


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## Ryno10

I got all the plantings done, had a question regarding some of the Prarie grass that is standing,should I cut it or leave standing?


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## agmantoo

I have no experience regarding prairie grass. Maybe call your extension office.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, regarding your cow herd, what's your opinion on line breeding? Have you considered using a bull that you bred to use on your cowherd? Have you ever did a comparison between castration at a early age and leaving in tact until an older age? With the heifers you retain, how is the rebreeding rate for the second calf? Did you see a lot of hybrid vigor using the MG bull? How are the heifers you retained from the MG cross doing compared to commercial angus?


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## Ryno10

What I meant about the Prarie grass was do I clip what is standing where I just seeded the fescue and clover?


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> Agmantoo, regarding your cow herd, what's your opinion on line breeding? Have you considered using a bull that you bred to use on your cowherd? Have you ever did a comparison between castration at a early age and leaving in tact until an older age? With the heifers you retain, how is the rebreeding rate for the second calf? Did you see a lot of hybrid vigor using the MG bull? How are the heifers you retained from the MG cross doing compared to commercial angus?


I normally castrate all the male calves within a few days of being born. As you may recall I only have 1 herd comprised of all the animals. I also raise calves throughout the year. Other than some assistance from the wife with moving the cattle this is a one person operation and banding calves as the are born spreads the labor. My cattle are very docile and I catch by hand the calve to be banded in whatever paddock they are in an perform the task there with the cow usually standing nearby. This process seems to not upset or stress the calf nor the cow. The breeding bulls pay no attention to what is going on. My calves sell good and usually go to buyers that are known at the sale barn to handle quality calves. I do compare the sale prices at the sale barn and I am constantly in the upper price range. 

I have considered using a bull from my herd but since the start up animals were from a commercial lot of feeder calves I decided against doing so. However I have sold a bull to a neighbor and he was very happy with his purchase, 

Fescue fed heifers are supposedly slow to rebreed but I have not had this issue that I am aware. Animals in good body condition tend to have few problems. 

Regarding the Murray Grey...IMO the purchase was a mistake. He sired a lot of calves and they grew nicely. At the sale barn the MG calves were constantly identified as Charolais and I took a discount due to the lack of black color or Angus influence. Retained MG heifers also moved up at least 1 frame size. I learned very quickly that a person needs to sell what the customer wants or be willing to take a ~$40 hit on each feeder calf. I have phased out all but 3 of the MG cows and they will leave when their current calves are marketed next month. I will most likely continue to buy bulls because I like to see what the outside influence will do with the closed herd.


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> What I meant about the Prarie grass was do I clip what is standing where I just seeded the fescue and clover?


I have no knowledge regarding prairie grass. Maybe someone else on this site can answer you.

I can tell you that I know of no known grass that can give 365 days grazing including stockpiling with the sustaining ability of endophyte infected KY 31 fescue.


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## Ryno10

Where the Prarie grass is standing I increased the seed amount that I drilled to about 30 pounds per acre, because of the extra grass. You may refer to it as thatch. From what I have saw with the Prarie grass it greens up and starts growing April 15 and typically, around here is cut for hay around the middle of july. How long do you think it will take the fescue to choke it out? Also what's your opinion of a 10x20 man made shade in the lane? Also recommendations of building materials for the shade.


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## agmantoo

I got this off google and there is a comparison chart. Possibly this chart may help. http://extension.psu.edu/plants/crops/forages/species/prairie-grass We just do not have any prairie grass here nor have I farmed anywhere that does.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, I'm sorry, let me clarify . What I refer to as Prarie grass is not specifically prairie grass , what I should call it is native range grass, that includes big blue stem, little blue stem, buffalo grass, Indian grass bromegrass ect. Thank you for taking the time to research it, the chart is very informative.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo do you have an aerial view of your property on this thread? Or drawn pics of your specific layout? Also what's the size of your hay storage barn,how many bales will it hold, would you recommend building one if you had it to do over? Do you think irrigation would be a better option?


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, what's the typical cow frame and weight of cattle in your area? How many generations did it take for you to get your cow herd to the 1000# range, beginning with you first heifers? In your opinion what specific genetics work best for the type of cattle you prefer? Of your bull suppliers, is there one you keep going back to?


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## agmantoo

Also what's the size of your hay storage barn said:


> The hay storage building is 5000 sq. feet with a A roof and an eve height of 16 ft. Something under 800 bales down to 600 bales should fit with 5ft diameter bales depending how tight they are stacked. yes, I have no regrets in building.
> 
> With the EPA scheduled to take over water control I do not know what impact that will have with irrigation. Cost to pump water is a second hurdle.
> 
> Recall my comments on the fertilizer value of hay.


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> Agmantoo, what's the typical cow frame and weight of cattle in your area? How many generations did it take for you to get your cow herd to the 1000# range, beginning with you first heifers? In your opinion what specific genetics work best for the type of cattle you prefer? Of your bull suppliers, is there one you keep going back to?


My cattle are frame 3 up to a near frame 4 on a few cows. I keep my proven cows probably longer that you may realize. 12 years+ old cows are not uncommon. Beef cattle on good soft dirt, not concrete, do not have foot problems as dairy cattle experience. 

It is not the genetics that make my preference in the type of cattle I have. My calf buyers at the sale barn pay a premium for black calves.

I shop around in fescue country for bulls that I purchase. I like to visit the producer to see their operation and their pastures as well as the bulls for sale. I want to see the bull's behavior as I am the one that is going to share the pasture with him daily. As stated previously, I have calm docile animals. I neutered 3 new calves in the pasture amongst the herd just yesterday.


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## agmantoo

Recently we discussed making lanes to enable the movement of our cattle from one location to another using lanes. I ran out of forage in the area the cattle were grazing and needed to shift to a distant portion of the farm today. The move started at the top right at the far side of the planted pines on the top far right side of the pic. Fortunately the weather cooperated and shifted from rain to sunny this morning and move went smoothly. Here is a pic I took but I was a little unmanned and was not able to get to two places at once so I was unable to show the destination. Those black spots in the distance are cattle also. I was in front of the herd and a portion of the herd managed to get past me as I was getting the camera out of the case.


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## SCRancher

My oldest (and best cow) is a 2004 birth year model.
I say it's my best because in good times she gains weight really fast, in bad times she looses weight the slowest.

Nearing the (hopeful) end of winter the other cattle have of course lost some weight but are doing well but the 1 cow looks like she is still eating fresh grass with her condition.

I am feeding last year's poor quality leftover hay with constant access to a protein bucket and minerals and water and 15 acres of sacrificial pasture where I'm feeding them.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo is that your hay barn in the distance? Also, are the distant cattle in your lane heading twards the cattle in the foreground?


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## agmantoo

Agmantoo is that your hay barn in the distance?

Yes, that is my hay storage building.

Also, are the distant cattle in your lane heading towards the cattle in the foreground?

Yes, those are my cattle and some are missing from the front of the line as they got by me as I was getting the camera ready. The destination the cattle were going to is not in the pic. The forage where the cows were grouped in the forefront was grazed about 1 month ago. The cows stopped there for a snack, they did not know the herd was headed to better grass. PS...that is single strand each side of lane of high tensile wire. A few feeder calves were taking a shortcut outside of the lane. The power was off.


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## Ryno10

I had some questions regarding my grass. I have native range as my base forage, I just planted 10 acres of fescue and clover. What percentage of my pasture should I keep as native for late summer grazing and what percentage should I convert to fescue? Also in just starting out with fescue, what are your opinions on using the 10 acres of fescue to supplement the native , which is low in nutritive value? Please elaborate


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## agmantoo

I do not find everything covered in this article to coincide with my findings however there is a lot that I do agree with. As I have stated previously I have not found a plant that works better in my operation than endophyte infected fescue intermixed with legumes and good practices for dealing with KY31. Your results could differ with mine and I have no experience with growing fescue at your location. I will go on record stating that I do feel that I can produce feeder calves as profitable or more so to compete with the the lowest cost producers.

Read this with an open mind.

http://courses.missouristate.edu/We...rass\\1Fescue\\OSUF2559TallFescueOklahoma.pdf


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, that is a very interesting read, I was wondering what doesn't coincide with your findings? It has been a week since my plantings, still anxiously awaiting sprouts. What's your experience with sprouting time frame? Sent off soil test, waiting for results, rain in forecast all week here. I think I'm convinced fescue for me is the way to go, what fescue that I already have is starting to to really grow. I have been trying to implement your suggestions, so all future recommendations are appreciated! I'm still in the planing stages of making lanes and building fence, ect., what would be the best way for me to display my ideas to you, to receive your recommendations?


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## agmantoo

Ryno10

Where I differ/fail to coincide is that most articles referencing KY31 fescue is the lack of recognition given to the protein content, the long periods of production and the sustainability of the plant. I know of stands of fescue that exist today and are still producing that were planted more than 30 years ago. Plant legumes with the fescue and it is IMO one of the best forages particularly in marginal soils. The deep growing roots grow into the soil and give resistance to drought and improve compacted soil. Some flooding is tolerated. Yes, I have had some of the negative side effects such as rough hair coat and minimal foot issues. As a feeder calf producer, I have to own the herd year round and maybe it takes a little longer for my calves to meet market weight as I feed no grain. Since the fescue, growing and stockpiled, carries the entire herd through most non drought years without hay, any additional time to get the calves to market weight is not considered a penalty by me. The market/sale barn prices I receive do not reflect a penalty either.

Good uniform sprouting should occur within 7 days with moisture present, good soil to seed contact, proper depth seed placement and the soil temperature above 38-40F at night.

Continue to post here. I like to share info as it may help someone else without having to repeat the typing.


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## Ryno10

I'm starting to see soom emergence from my plantings, have been getting rain looks like spring is here about a month early. Agmantoo what's your opinion for the hay residue where we fed hay this winter, I want it to improve the soil, should I drag and spread or leave alone. I'll try to get a pic tommarrow.


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## Ryno10

This is the area I was referring to with the hay residue.


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## agmantoo

The hay residue in the left foreground of the 1st pic is IMO too thick and will retard or limit the regrowth/sprouting of any fescue seed underneath. In the same pic the background waste hay residue is also thicker than I would want. Not knowing what methods that you may have to distribute the residue leaves me lacking for a suggestion. As for myself, I no longer have a tedder but I would attempt using one if available to spread the residue. My drag harrow would want to roll the clumps so that would not work for me either. I guess I would take my bushhog and run over the residue several trips lowering the cutting height each trip. I use a 3 point tractor hay unroller to feed hay and I never waste hay if possible. By unrolling the hay being fed on fresh ground each feeding my animals waste very little. If I had a badly eroded or a very poor soil I wanted to improve, I would possible concentrate feeding in such an area to get the manure, urine and fallout seed. Once hay gets manured the cattle will be reluctant to eat from the area and waste more hay.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, the hay residue in the foreground is the last feeding. That is where I set out a round bale. I too have rolled out the hay in the past but chose not to because I wanted the waste to build the soil. This ground is probably the worst ground on our place, it was very eroded and was plowed up and smoothed then sprigged with common burmuda about ten years ago by my grandfather. The burmuda grass is there but hardly grows. I have a chain harrow that I plan to use to spread. I agree I may have to do something with the large piles. I don't plan to plant fescue yet because this ground needs some tlc first. I don't know why I haven't fed hay here already , I guess I'm starting to change my thinking thanks to research and this forum. Would you agree there is no top soil in this area due to plowing? I think I need organic matter first, then a soil test, what's you opinion? I started rotating the cows today on an area of native range that hasn't been grazed in over a year the grass is tall should I brushhog after the cattle? Are you still on stockpile or are you grazing new growth?


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## Allen W

Ryno10 you might be surprised at what the bermuda will do in those hay piles. A good stand will grow up through them pretty quick a poorer stand might just grow around the edges if they're too thick the first year. Bermuda doesn't grow aggressively until it gets pretty warm making it easy for weeds to get a head start, keeping it shaded and pulling moisture from it.


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## ramiller5675

Allen W is right, your bermuda will grow right up through those piles of hay. 

Bermuda needs a lot of fertility and moisture, and it should thrive on all that manure and the moisture under that decaying hay. I feed hay to my cattle over the winter in almost the same way and try to feed around 30-40 bales per acre so that I end up with a pretty uniform layer of manure, urine, and hay. 

By early summer, you usually can't tell that I've fed any hay at all. The hotter and wetter spring is, the quicker it'll break down. In the past, I've dragged the hay feeding area, I've brush-hogged bigger piles of hay, and I've fed cubes on bigger piles to get the cattle to spread them out for me, but I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble to do any of that. 

Of course, my experience is with bermuda grass and I don't have any idea how fescue will respond to this sort of treatment.


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## Ryno10

Thank you both for your opinions, I may try to spread the very large clumps and leave the rest.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, what percentage of your overall pasture do you have warm season grass growing in? I have decided to try and covert my pasture to fescue,clover and rye but am at about 90 plus percent warm season grass now. I am wondering what your opinion is on how much I should convert. Until I convert the pasture to a high percentage of cool season grass, how would you utilize what I have now? Are you still grazing stockpile or are you grazing new forage? I will try and get some pics of my fescue plantings tomorrow.


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> Agmantoo, what percentage of your overall pasture do you have warm season grass growing in? I have decided to try and covert my pasture to fescue,clover and rye but am at about 90 plus percent warm season grass now. I am wondering what your opinion is on how much I should convert. Until I convert the pasture to a high percentage of cool season grass, how would you utilize what I have now? Are you still grazing stockpile or are you grazing new forage? I will try and get some pics of my fescue plantings tomorrow.


I have ceased to attempt to grow warm season grass by itself as a forage. In non-drought years I am able to produce more forage and for a longer duration off the KY31 fescue blended with clovers and vetch. Most folks think about stockpiling for Winter only whereas I stockpile for July and August additionally. In so doing, I have acreage that is producing forage when the temperatures and the moisture is correct for what I already have established planted without taking land out of production and preparing acreage for regrowth. This is what allows me to create the ability to feed a cow, and her calf till marketed, in non-drought years without supplemental feed for a full 365 day year on 1.4 acres. This practice goes a long ways in making me the low cost producer of feeder calves that I am.

Currently I am grazing drought recovering fescue and vetch plus the clover is beginning to reestablish itself. In your case it will be a coin toss as to how well this new fescue will hold up since the root system will be at risk should the weather turn dry. I prefer to plant fescue in the Fall but again getting established fescue and grazing it at the same time is risky, IMO. Check with some of the local producers and ask what will give you the most warm season forage tonnage for your area. Beware of planting something that could give you a prussic acid issue. If you can get some fertilized hay at a justifiable price I would consider that as you could benefit from the manure. Getting established does incur expenses that are difficult to justify initially but will payoff later.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> I have ceased to attempt to grow warm season grass by itself as a forage. In non-drought years I am able to produce more forage and for a longer duration off the KY31 fescue blended with* clovers and vetch.* Most folks think about stockpiling for Winter only whereas I stockpile for July and August additionally. In so doing, I have acreage that is producing forage when the temperatures and the moisture is correct for what I already have established planted without taking land out of production and preparing acreage for regrowth. This is what allows me to create the ability to feed a cow, and her calf till marketed, in non-drought years without supplemental feed for a full 365 day year on 1.4 acres. This practice goes a long ways in making me the low cost producer of feeder calves that I am.
> 
> Currently I am grazing drought recovering fescue and vetch plus the clover is beginning to reestablish itself. In your case it will be a coin toss as to how well this new fescue will hold up since the root system will be at risk should the weather turn dry. I prefer to plant fescue in the Fall but again getting established fescue and grazing it at the same time is risky, IMO. Check with some of the local producers and ask what will give you the most warm season forage tonnage for your area. Beware of planting something that could give you a prussic acid issue. If you can get some fertilized hay at a justifiable price I would consider that as you could benefit from the manure. Getting established does incur expenses that are difficult to justify initially but will payoff later.


 Are you using hairy vetch? Are you overseeding it?


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## agmantoo

Yes hairy vetch.

I broadcast the seed and let the herd walk the seed into soil contact usually in late September before the Fescue gets a good restart following hot weather.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, i plan to set that 10 acres of fescue aside and not graze it at all until next fall. I plan to get the same amount of hay as typical and use it to improve soil and feed cows this winter. Next fall I will plant more acreage to fescue and so on year after year till I get a high percentage of cool season grass. Again I'm understocked and can afford to set aside acreage and not graze it to get the fescue established. I'm am wondering what would be the best way to utilize the fescue I have with the native range for winter grazing next year and so on? As I plant more fescue my percentage of fescue will climb. If I continue this plan for say 5 years I will hopefully have a high percentage of cool season grass. My question is how would you manage it until I get there? My idea is right now, to use my small amount of fescue to supplement either my stockpiled native range or hay the same if I provided protein supplements. Maybe on a 2 day native/hay 1 day fescue rotation . What's your opinion?


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## Ryno10

Here are the pics of my fescue.


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> Agmantoo, i plan to set that 10 acres of fescue aside and not graze it at all until next fall. I plan to get the same amount of hay as typical and use it to improve soil and feed cows this winter. Next fall I will plant more acreage to fescue and so on year after year till I get a high percentage of cool season grass. Again I'm understocked and can afford to set aside acreage and not graze it to get the fescue established. I'm am wondering what would be the best way to utilize the fescue I have with the native range for winter grazing next year and so on? As I plant more fescue my percentage of fescue will climb. If I continue this plan for say 5 years I will hopefully have a high percentage of cool season grass. My question is how would you manage it until I get there? My idea is right now, to use my small amount of fescue to supplement either my stockpiled native range or hay the same if I provided protein supplements. Maybe on a 2 day native/hay 1 day fescue rotation . What's your opinion?


You must know by now that the common opinion of me by the locals here is that I am a weirdo! What I would do is handle the newly planted fescue the same as grass growing in my yard with a few exceptions. Initially I would let the fescue grow until it was established and growing until it was 6 inches tall and with a sharp bladed bushhog I would mow it. This should knock off the tops of any weeds and at the same time conserve nutrients in the fescue root system. Within a short time you should see regrowth and the converging of the fescue as it branches out creating a thicker growth. I would do this again as the grass becomes established. I do want to caution you not to mow when the soil is wet. We do not want soil compaction and or root damage. Once the root depth reaches down a foot or so the plants will become more tolerant. If the weather limits the moisture as summer advances I do not want you to let the fescue go to seed. Mow again about as high as the bushhog will run and leave the cattle traffic off. The fescue will go dormant by June/July depending on moisture and heat. By the second week in September provided moisture is present the fescue will come out of dormancy. Do not apply a high rate of nitrogen at this juncture. It is OK to apply some fertilizer if you want a Fall growth boost but we do not want excessive top growth as we are still establishing a root system.

Where you have some established fescue I would take a multi-prong approach with the native grass/fescue once it get 8+ inches tall. I would limit graze with a single day grazing followed by a herd move. Leave not less than 2 to 3 inches of grass remaining and move the animals. Note....always graze the tallest forage first and keep moving with no backgrazing. IMO this is always a good habit to establish. Replicate what the plains animals did. When I know that I will not have enough growing forage to stockpile to get through the Winter I will feed hay early and reserve the fescue that is still growing. My fescue will usually grow to near the end of the calendar year. This effort will maximize what forage that is still growing and I find it more enjoyable feeding the hay before bad weather hits.


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## agmantoo

Here is a pic taken 2 days ago showing the status of what I am grazing at this time. The greenest area in the distance is what was grazed when I showed the herd being moved recently.


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## ycanchu2

agmantoo said:


> Yes hairy vetch.
> 
> I broadcast the seed and let the herd walk the seed into soil contact usually in late September before the Fescue gets a good restart following hot weather.


How much do you sow lbs/ac.? Is it an annual or perennial?


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2 said:


> How much do you sow lbs/ac.? Is it an annual or perennial?


I sow annual common hairy vetch (vicia villosa). I want the nitrogen but I do not like the price of the vetch seed so I broadcast the seed during September at a low rate of approximately 18 to 20 lbs/acre using a Herd seeder mounted on an ATV, planning on getting the vetch to establish itself over time. With rotational grazing some seed will get trampled as the vetch is grazed. The trampled seed will come up the next year and I imagine some seed is distributed with the manure. The cows are very fond of eating the vetch. Where I have a thin stand of vetch I try rotating around the vetch until the plants have mature blossoms. At this time the vetch is up and appears to be flourishing.


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo, I respect your opinions that's why I ask for them. You are making money in the cattle business and I am not. Your thoughts comparing pasture to my yard makes alot of sense! Those bulls, where did you source them from? What's the age and frame score and what genetics are they? Thanks again!!!!!


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> Agmantoo, I respect your opinions that's why I ask for them. You are making money in the cattle business and I am not. Your thoughts comparing pasture to my yard makes alot of sense! Those bulls, where did you source them from? What's the age and frame score and what genetics are they? Thanks again!!!!!


I bought the bulls from a local farmer when they were around 500 lbs each. They each had the same sire which was a registered Angus and the dams' history was lacking. My best guess was unregistered Angus. One bull is ~4 years old and the other is ~3 years old now. Each from my judgement are frame 4. Neither have had any grain as feed after I purchased them but they did have silage for 2 months to get them through the drought impact we experienced in 2015. The entire herd had negative results for the low quality silage and my lack of experience with such feed. However, the herd has had a remarkable recovery just from the fescue that responded from late Winter rain and unseasonally warm recent weather. In order to minimize stress on the cattle I sold more feeder calves lighter than I normally would to get them off the cows and the limited on hand feed. Even so if I posted the lbs sold no one would belief the numbers.


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## gwithrow

Agman can you tell me where you got the hairy vetch seed and about how much it was per pound?....what i have been seeing for sale is a mix with rye...but i want just the vetch...

I still want to work on improving the pastures for early spring grazing...and for hot summer as well..... i do the rye ....broadcast in the fall which is great if we get rain...anda i want to add the vetch into the mix out there...right now though the cows are walking seed in to any bare places...fescue and orchard grass and clover...


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo here are the results of my soil test, what are your recommendations for my situation?


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## agmantoo

gwithrow said:


> Agman can you tell me where you got the hairy vetch seed and about how much it was per pound?....what i have been seeing for sale is a mix with rye...but i want just the vetch...
> 
> I still want to work on improving the pastures for early spring grazing...and for hot summer as well..... i do the rye ....broadcast in the fall which is great if we get rain...anda i want to add the vetch into the mix out there...right now though the cows are walking seed in to any bare places...fescue and orchard grass and clover...


I will have to get back to you on the vetch source. Vetch is around $3.50 to $5.00 per lb. Being cheap I plant around 15 lbs per acre in Sept. and let the vetch go to seed in the Spring and then wait on the vetch to reseed itself.

As for warm weather, I work my fescue hard and I stockpile it for July and August. I do not get the results I want from warm weather grazing forage.


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## agmantoo

Ryno10 said:


> Agmantoo here are the results of my soil test, what are your recommendations for my situation?


The results on your soil test look encouraging. Since your fescue is newly planted if you put all that nitrogen on at this time the root system will not keep up with the top growth. Should the weather turn dry I am concerned that the fescue will perish for lack of root growth. I would apply diammonia phosphate (18-46-0) at the rate of 150 lbs/acre now and then if the weather cooperates with moisture add nitrogen in at least 2 additional applications over the next 2 to 3 months. If it turns dry halt and wait till Sept for the 2 application. I do not like Spring planted fescue due to risk.


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## Ryno10

I'd did some checking dap is about $500 per ton and urea is around $400 a ton what's it going for there?


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## Ryno10

Agmantoo I used your pvc pipe gate idea this evening. I had one that wouldn't go under, how long did the training take for you? Also, do you ever have the cows challenge the fence after there is no longer a gate there trying to get through?


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## medski

Getting fence finished here. Looking to start grazing soon! Side question? Had first calf a week ago and ice storm so I put cow/ calf inside. Went to let cow/ calf back out two days later. Cows started fighting so bad I thought they were going to kill her! I put her back in stall for now. These are lowlines. Has anyone had this situation?


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## agmantoo

Ryno10

toss a little old hay under the "gate" wire and the animal should accept that as a path. I did have another person in the past that stated his animals were reluctant to go under the wire. You do have the height of the wire about as high as you can reach don't you? As for animals breaching the single strand of partition wire that seems to happen either when there is insufficient feed or the fence charger is not hot enough. Do you know what the voltage is at the fence?  3500 volts is stated to be minimal but I like for my charger to deliver 5000 volts or more at the fence being used. I did send a cow to the sale barn years back as she was a constant escapee. She was bought as a grown cow back when I was trying to build a herd. Her calf accompanied her to the sale.


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## agmantoo

medski said:


> Getting fence finished here. Looking to start grazing soon! Side question? Had first calf a week ago and ice storm so I put cow/ calf inside. Went to let cow/ calf back out two days later. Cows started fighting so bad I thought they were going to kill her! I put her back in stall for now. These are lowlines. Has anyone had this situation?


Establishing a new pecking order can be rough. As long as the animals are not overly crowded things should correct themselves in a day or two.


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## agmantoo

gwithrow said:


> Agman can you tell me where you got the hairy vetch seed and about how much it was per pound?....what i have been seeing for sale is a mix with rye...but i want just the vetch...
> 
> I still want to work on improving the pastures for early spring grazing...and for hot summer as well..... i do the rye ....broadcast in the fall which is great if we get rain...anda i want to add the vetch into the mix out there...right now though the cows are walking seed in to any bare places...fescue and orchard grass and clover...


Bad news on the vetch. My source is out. He also stated that his price to renew his inventory would jump roughly $30 per 50 lb bag to $150. IMO it is getting too late in the season to take the leap/risk. Internet price at Hancock seed is still stating $129/50 lb bag. The site estimator would not work when I tried to get the UPS shipping to here.


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## Ryno10

The height of the pvc gate is 7' the cattle did a little better today going under the wire. I fed some cubes to entice them. I do not know what the voltage is on the fence, I do know in the past the grounding wasn't the best I since have corrected the ground problem. When the cattle come to the pvc gate they are reluctant to go under they walk parallel up and down the fence. This evening they came under better with the cubes, but I did notice they all walked under on the same side of the pvc.


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## Allen W

agmantoo said:


> Bad news on the vetch. My source is out. He also stated that his price to renew his inventory would jump roughly $30 per 50 lb bag to $150. IMO it is getting too late in the season to take the leap/risk. Internet price at Hancock seed is still stating $129/50 lb bag. The site estimator would not work when I tried to get the UPS shipping to here.


Or too early depending on how you look at it. The old timers always said to plant it in August or early September here,some where between zones 6 and 7 on the dry plains, to give it plenty of time to get established before winter. That was drilling into clean ground, broadcasting that might be a little early but with moist soil and a good heavy dew every morning I might be tempted to try.


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## medski

The pecking order did correct itself by moving to new area with a little green grass! I have been reading some on cattle and witch eye they view certain things with! That maybe why your cows all walked under on the same side.


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## main_man

Agmantoo

With the harsh drought conditions last year, wondered how your pasture and herd faired, did you learn anything new or adapt/change your management compared with how you have before with drought or how you would manage in the future? Some great photos and impressed with the look of your cattle!


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## agmantoo

main_man said:


> Agmantoo
> 
> With the harsh drought conditions last year, wondered how your pasture and herd faired, did you learn anything new or adapt/change your management compared with how you have before with drought or how you would manage in the future? Some great photos and impressed with the look of your cattle!


Prior to the drought last year when the calf market was great I already started to create the cushion I felt I needed during a drought. I did this by erecting a metal building as a hay storage facility and hoped that I would never have to use it. I did get caught with inadequate hay and I had to revert to some drought stressed silage. The silage was low quality as it was also hit by the same drought I found myself in. My cattle did lose some body condition but quickly regained it when the rains did arrive. Since then I have already scheduled to obtain more hay as well as to bale hay on shares off another farm. My intention is to fill the new building and hold the hay as I continue to do rotational grazing.


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## TNgrassgrower

Hello everyone, I have managed to read the first 50 pages of this thread in the last week (talk about a lot of wonderful information!). I have 35 acres with 16 pasture acres and the rest wooded areas (a contractor will be clearing a 3 acre area next month that I will be converting to pasture)(I bought this farm last year and am working to get it in better shape). I have 5 acres of winter wheat that I am rotational grazing right now with my small herd, 20 cattle (9 cows and 11 calves). the cows are due to calve any day now, I have a defined 60 day calving window. I broadcast KY31 (15#) red clover (4#) and white clover (2#) along with 40-50# of commercial N almost 1 month ago (the pasture had a fescue on it last year). Thankfully we have had plenty of rain recently. Should I keep the cows off of the seeded pasture until I can clip at 6-8" height or should I continue to rotational graze it at that time? Like I said the pasture has the herd on it all year last year, I just seeded it to get a better stand on it. Like most people I did what the neighbors told me to do and did NOT rotational graze last year. I love this thread and this website...thank you everyone especially AGMANTOO for all of your efforts to help out each and every one of us.


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## SCRancher

TNGrassGrower - Even for rotational grazing you seem to be overstocked IMO. Agmantoo can get away with this intense stocking density because he has been doing this a LONG time and has the experience to go with it and his pastures are well established.

You seem to be just getting into this, pastures are not established, stocking density near what Agmantoo has if not higher.

You have basically 16 acres of pasture divided by just 10 leaves 1.6 acres per cow. From what I remember Agmantoo is running 1.4 acres per cow.

Now I will say I don't know the size of your cattle, your layout, etc etc etc so I could very well be wrong.


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## TNgrassgrower

SCRancher, I totally agree that I am a newbie in this area. I am probably overstocked as well. I have 6 mature cows, 4 of them are a high frame 3 of low frame 4, the other 2 are most likely frame 5 (I will be selling them as 3-1's this summer depending on prices). There are 3 bred heifers, all of them are due to calve within the next few days. Then I have 11 calves, none of them are more than 500#s right now. 9 of them are heifers as I am working towards the goal of building a quality herd. 

I am waiting on a contractor to cut down all of the available trees to sell and then convert that land to pasture. After talking to the NRCS office, I might plant long stem bluegrass on that 3-4 acres for summer growth(they will compensate 90% of it). 

Thank you for comments and suggestions.


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## ycanchu2

I am running 1 cow to 2 acres approximately, not counting the calves, which will vary in size and growing thru the summer. I am working towards 1 cow to 1.5 acres.
What puzzles me is these guys out here that will stock about 1 cow to 1 acre all summer with conventional grazing and do ok....as long as it doesn't turn off dry..... then feed hay all winter starting in November or the first freeze.
I don't think that's what I want to do, but if I doubled my cow herd, that sure would buy a whole lot of hay.


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## agmantoo

ycanchu2,

1 cow and her calf till the calf is marketed at around 450 to 500 lbs for 365 days is the goal here with No Hay. In non drought years I achieve this goal. How much hay do you need to NOT buy? Why are the conventional producers whining about not making money? They are giving their cattle income to the hay man!


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## medski

Unfortunately here in the north we have to give some money to the hay man.


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## TNgrassgrower

I spent some more time with the NRCS rep yesterday. We have a plan set up regarding water and cross fencing. Right now I have 36 acres that has a perimeter fence of the typical 5 strand barbed wire. There are 3-4 stream around the perimeter of the land with full access for the herd. Now the bad part...

I originally worked with the NRCS rep last year and in time to make both deadline for state(cost share is 75% of the project) and federal programs (Veteran with 100% disability, the cost share is 90% of the project). He told me yesterday that I was approved for the State program, but he messed up the paperwork on the Federal part and I have to wait until next year to receive 90%. I am a frugal guy and I will be holding out for the 90% (this could be $1500-2000 more dollars saved overall). 

Since I am now waiting until next year I am at a dilema as to what I should do for this year and coming winter. Right now I am moving my herd every day. I have run a temporarily permanent 2 run electric fence parallel to the perimeter fence and am running 2 seperate temporary runs perpendicular to that along with an alley for them to go back to the barn and get water for now. Basically I will have do work with all temporary fence for another year somehow someway. I am dedicated to daily rotational grazing as I enjoy walking amongst the herd learning from them. 

Another issue I am facing is wether to go ahead and run most of the underground water lines now so that I can utilize them this year while waiting for the 90%. I can then move clean, fresh, and COLD water with the cows daily! 

If you were faced with this situation what would you do? 

PS. I can financially afford to do this part of the project now or wait until next year.

Thank you everyone,

TNgrassgrower


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## TNgrassgrower

Next Friday I plan on running a ditch and water lines with quick attach fitting set 18" into the ground at about 200' intervals so I can keep water with the cattle 24/7. I have a temporary lane set up right now, but I would rather have the water with them instead of a long walk back to the barn/water. Question, during dry times does anyone ever put out big water sprinklers to water areas that have been recently grazed to help with regrowth?


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## ycanchu2

Do you have shade in all of your paddocks that you are planning on running water to?
I personally think the permanent lanes to water and shade that Agmantoo advocates is the best system.
I probably wouldn't overthink the water situation. But that's just me. Keeping the ground covered in the heat of the summer is probably the most critical thing you can do to conserve moisture.


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## SCRancher

Ok I have over 6,000 feet of waterlines with hydrants spaced every 200 feet - 2 separate 2500 foot runs and a 1,000 foot from well to the farthest run.

I have a water cart with a 50 gallon tub that I pull along to the cattle and plug into the hydrants.

My property is rectangular and I have the lanes running the long edge making 4 lanes approximately 200 feet apart with a 5th area that is mostly woods with a creek as the property boundary on that side. I don't typically use the 5th area except when I am forced to which I have not had to do for the last 2 years.

I create daily blocks between the lanes with temporary wire I can size the blocks according the the amount of grass. Currently I basically give the 13 brood cows and 10 calves a 100 x 200 foot area for the 24 hour period.

I am going to number the lanes and describe them then I'm going to point out the problems with my setup and what I would do differently.

Lane 1: This lane is 2500 feet long 200 feet wide with about 25 to 50 feet of trees along the western edge with the perimeter fence. The cows have access to woods daily for shelter and of course I have water available due to the water cart. The very back of this lane there is about 500 feet of woods. When moving daily this time of year I get about 20 days of grazing in this 1 lane.

Lane 2: This lane borders lane 1 and also has 500 feet of woods at the back of the lane but other than these woods there is NO other shelter but they do have the water cart at all times. During this nice spring weather I can run the cattle in this lane with no ill effects that I can see to the cattle but when the temperature starts to get over around 80-85 degrees then I start having problems due to the lack of shelter. I end up having to not put a back wire allowing them access to the previously grazed areas so they can make their way into the woods to escape the sun/heat. 1 year I didn't do this soon enough and lost a calf because of it.

Lane 3: Next to lane 2 also has 500 feet of woods at the back but also has a small arc of woods in the first 1/2 of the lane and the eastern 1/3 has a 25 to 50 foot section of woods. While I have the same issues as lane 2 it's a smaller scale as and I don't have to leave the back wire off as long a distance during the summer heat.

Lane 4: This is a shorter and more irregular lane that is also at times wider than 200 feet, perhaps 300 - 350 feet at it's widest. This lane has shade available in the form of tree shadows from overhanging trees along the eastern edge. I do not have to leave any wires down for shade so in this regard it is as good as lane 1 but shorter typically only giving me around 7 - 10 days of grazing.

So if I had to do this over again instead of running 4 lanes north/south along the long edge I would instead run the lanes east/west and create 20 lanes as I could then only have 1 to 3 days of back grazing during the > 80 degree weather. While water IS the #1 concern shelter runs a close 2nd IMO.

My long water lines run between lanes 1 and 2 and 3 and 4.

I keep saying I'm going to do this but I have not yet made the effort to improve the layout as it would mean driving around 60 more posts and 40 more spring gates.

I have attached a picture (hopefully it works) so you can see my layout if you look closely you can see the lines that my fences form. The marked orange boundary is off a little as the top straight line is actually in the field and does not include any woods and the back includes more woods than what is shown.


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## ycanchu2

SCRancher said:


> Ok I have over 6,000 feet of waterlines with hydrants spaced every 200 feet - 2 separate 2500 foot runs and a 1,000 foot from well to the farthest run.
> 
> I have a water cart with a 50 gallon tub that I pull along to the cattle and plug into the hydrants.
> 
> My property is rectangular and I have the lanes running the long edge making 4 lanes approximately 200 feet apart with a 5th area that is mostly woods with a creek as the property boundary on that side. I don't typically use the 5th area except when I am forced to which I have not had to do for the last 2 years.
> 
> I create daily blocks between the lanes with temporary wire I can size the blocks according the the amount of grass. Currently I basically give the 13 brood cows and 10 calves a 100 x 200 foot area for the 24 hour period.
> 
> I am going to number the lanes and describe them then I'm going to point out the problems with my setup and what I would do differently.
> 
> Lane 1: This lane is 2500 feet long 200 feet wide with about 25 to 50 feet of trees along the western edge with the perimeter fence. The cows have access to woods daily for shelter and of course I have water available due to the water cart. The very back of this lane there is about 500 feet of woods. When moving daily this time of year I get about 20 days of grazing in this 1 lane.
> 
> Lane 2: This lane borders lane 1 and also has 500 feet of woods at the back of the lane but other than these woods there is NO other shelter but they do have the water cart at all times. During this nice spring weather I can run the cattle in this lane with no ill effects that I can see to the cattle but when the temperature starts to get over around 80-85 degrees then I start having problems due to the lack of shelter. I end up having to not put a back wire allowing them access to the previously grazed areas so they can make their way into the woods to escape the sun/heat. 1 year I didn't do this soon enough and lost a calf because of it.
> 
> Lane 3: Next to lane 2 also has 500 feet of woods at the back but also has a small arc of woods in the first 1/2 of the lane and the eastern 1/3 has a 25 to 50 foot section of woods. While I have the same issues as lane 2 it's a smaller scale as and I don't have to leave the back wire off as long a distance during the summer heat.
> 
> Lane 4: This is a shorter and more irregular lane that is also at times wider than 200 feet, perhaps 300 - 350 feet at it's widest. This lane has shade available in the form of tree shadows from overhanging trees along the eastern edge. I do not have to leave any wires down for shade so in this regard it is as good as lane 1 but shorter typically only giving me around 7 - 10 days of grazing.
> 
> So if I had to do this over again instead of running 4 lanes north/south along the long edge I would instead run the lanes east/west and create 20 lanes as I could then only have 1 to 3 days of back grazing during the > 80 degree weather. While water IS the #1 concern shelter runs a close 2nd IMO.
> 
> My long water lines run between lanes 1 and 2 and 3 and 4.
> 
> I keep saying I'm going to do this but I have not yet made the effort to improve the layout as it would mean driving around 60 more posts and 40 more spring gates.
> 
> I have attached a picture (hopefully it works) so you can see my layout if you look closely you can see the lines that my fences form. The marked orange boundary is off a little as the top straight line is actually in the field and does not include any woods and the back includes more woods than what is shown.


I have a lot of woods as you do. In most places I go around the edge of the woods and out about 50 or 60 feet with a single strand high tensile. This make my lane or common area which takes in the woods. The cattle have easy access to the woods/shade from all adjacent paddocks. My water is also in the woods or the edge of the woods.
I can't imagine hauling water everyday especially in bad weather.


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## TNgrassgrower

ycanchu2 and SCRancher,

Thank you both for your information. I have woods around the perimeter of my property. I agree that water is #1 and shade is #2. I have been taking into account both of these before moving the herd to a paddock. I wanted to get your thoughts on putting in water now instead of waiting another year. I also have steams that go around the perimeter of the property, but it will be a painful process to fence out using temporary electric fencing in the woods to get to the water. Right now they are using a lane to get back to water near the barn. 

Once again thank you for all of your inputs.


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## SCRancher

ycanchu2 - I only have to pull the water cart 200 feet so even in bad weather it does not take long and 1/2 of the days I only have to pull it 5 feet or so under the wire to the next partition.

It's not like I'm having to carry water anywhere, when I go to move it 200 feet I dump the cart of water and pull it empty.

TNgrassgrower - I can't answer for you when to put the water lines in - you'll have to do that for your self however I can tell you how I did mine.

I rented a riding trencher and trenched all 6,000 feet in about 10 hours the pipe is laid 2 feet in the ground. It then took me about 2 days to assemble the pipe on site. I had previously (in the evenings done the other prep work with the T's for the hydrants).

I used 2 inch PVC pipe. It was not a glue pipe but you grease a rubber seal and the pipe slips together. On 1 hand it was nice because it was very fast. On the other hand if your end run's are not buried tight then the water pressure can cause the last pipe segment to fly off - ask me how I know LOL.

I learned some lessons doing everything and if i would have to do it over again there would be some minor changes but overall I LIKE my water situation and wouldn't trade it for a central water location or even several central water locations.


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## TNgrassgrower

SCRancher - I understand, thank you for the info.

What do you all suggest for a summer forage? So, far I am thinking Pearl Millet or Crab grass. Sorghum was on my list until I read about Prussic acid problems. I am in zone 7 and this seed will be broadcasted.

Thank you


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo

I guess I missed the normal email telling me folks were on the site and I haven't checked in a while. What bull are you running now and are you still doing the terminal cross type breeding? If not then how many heifers do you retain each year versus what goes to the sale barn?

Thanks,
Randy


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## agmantoo

Hi, randyandmegs

I am running 2 bulls with the herd as per usual. Neither are registered but both are ~ frame 4 from Angus stock from a good IMO herd. I consider all my offspring to be terminal as I get a lot of mileage from the females and retain less than 20% of the heifers in order to hold the total female headcount consistent at approximately 100 brood cows, my carrying capacity. Only bulls are brought in from the outside. The bulls remain in service up to 4+ years.


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## DisasterCupcake

Wow. This thread is nothing short of amazing. 

I've poked around it quite a bit, and found some really great information. Thank you. 

Maybe you can help me find an appropriate management technique for a very small farm <10 acres, with approximately 6 acres of good pasture. I have searched around and not really found a lot of information on intensive grazing at low acreage or lower stocking rates. It may be that it is just not doable under a certain size.

Also, I'm in Michigan where the snow is wet, heavy, and deep for about 3 months of the year, and the ground hard frozen for 4. I do not think that stockpiling forage would be at all effective for feeding during the winter. Animals expend more energy getting through the snow to the grass than they get from the grass. 

It may be that only a very small herd of brood animals that tend to have multiple offspring (sheep and goats) would be the most effective for this climate, considering the overwintering cost of keeping brood animals. 

Would love to hear thoughts and ideas.


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## TNgrassgrower

Hello everyone, I have been rotational graining my small herd about 3 months now. I have been putting up 2 strands on my back fence(1 at knee height and 1 just under hip height) and 1 on the front fence so that the calves can go under to better grass if they want to. My problem is that sometimes a bigger calve(my guess) will go through and some of the Mamma cows follow the calf out of the allotted grass for the day. What suggestions do you have?

My old electric fence charger took a lightning hit last week and I replaced it with a new ParMac Ringmaster RM-1 (thanks Agmantoo for the suggestion). It is outputting 11.5-12.1kv without rain and 7.8-8.7kv while raining. 

I am confused why some calves can take the electrical Zap for the new grass while the Mammas wouldn't without encouragement. 

There is plenty of shade and water within 300-400' for them.

Am I doing something wrong or is it just young calves being teenagers and I need to use 2 strands on both sides?

Thank you for your inputs.


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## Gravytrain

TNgrassgrower said:


> I am confused why some calves can take the electrical Zap for the new grass while the Mammas wouldn't without encouragement.


Smaller hooves = less of an electrical ground = less negative persuasion.

How low are you allowing them to graze their current paddock? Unless you are in a sacrifice paddock situation for some reason, they shouldn't be that eager to get through the fence. 

I would think you should be greening up nicely at your latitude. Unless you are overstocked, you should be rotating quite rapidly right now. I move them twice/day once the spring flush starts in order to keep up with the growth and to allow the ability to get back on the same ground in a couple of weeks.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo,

I sent you a PM, if you would check it out.

Thanks,
Randy


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## TNgrassgrower

Thanks for your response Gravy train,

I am allowing them to graze 24hrs in each section to strip graze. The area is 300' by 20' for 9 cows and16 calves. Your are correct, we are greening up quite well. I have been bush hogging other areas to keep it from going to seed.

Last night around midnight I had a calf born with what looked like a balloon the size of my fist about 2-3 inches in line with the umbilical cord. Google helped me identify this as either a rare hernia that the calf further ripped open because of the pain or the guts and intestines were formed outside of the interstitial wall. Needless to say when I went out this morning she was dead with all of her guts on the grass.

I cut most of the coat off of the dead calf and put it onto a bottle calf. I am trying to bond a previous bottle calf onto her Mamma now. It seems to be working, when i put the Mamma in the squeeze shoot and the had the calf suckling her she seems to accept her. I the pair in barn in fairly tight area trying to encourage her to accept her.


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## randyandmegs

TNgrassgrower did the calf have any other odd things with it. I had one born to a heifer this year that had the intestines on the outside as well but it also had severely deformed feet and legs. So bad it had to be taken out in pieces by the vet. Had I know what was going on I would have just taken her straight to the packing house. I haven't found anyone that could tell me what happened other than rare genetic occurrence. She will be the first one headed to the sale with a few more teenagers.

Randy


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## TNgrassgrower

Randyandmegs, I came upon the calf and it looked like she was born within the last 30-45 minutes. She was aggressively hunting for an udder to suckle. She would hop around and play a little. My wife and I read a lot on the internet and it looks like she also had a rare genetic occurrence, but she only exhibited part of it. What we read said both the Sire and the Dam had to have this genetic occurrence to pass it along to their calf. This was the Mamma cows second calf and her first calf is perfectly fine, but was bred to a different bull. I will be shipping her as well. I sure don't want the possibility of losing another calf to the same situation agin. 

On another note...Last year was my first year involved in cattle and I did what my FIL told me to do. Yep I let them have all 36 acres as they pleased.
This year I have been rotational grazing...Now when some calves are born they like to go outside of the paddock fence and take their naps. Sometimes the Mamma cow is balling looking frantically all over her 24hr strip. This make me nervous for some reason (I think I can just see the Mamma going through the temp. electrical fence and letting everyone out as well.

What do you all do if you have this happen? Should I just let the Mamma cows into the bigger part of the paddock when their calves are a few days old?

Again thank you for your replies


TNgrassgrower


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## Gravytrain

TNgrassgrower said:


> ...Now when some calves are born they like to go outside of the paddock fence and take their naps. Sometimes the Mamma cow is balling looking frantically all over her 24hr strip. This make me nervous for some reason (I think I can just see the Mamma going through the temp. electrical fence and letting everyone out as well.


This seems more plausible than a larger calf going through IMO. I've had this problem. Calves like to hide in taller grass. Moving your 2 strand to the leading edge instead of the back line should fix this if this is, in fact, what is happening. It will also train your calves to respect fences.


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## TNgrassgrower

Happy Mothers Day to everyone


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## randyandmegs

TNgrassgrower said:


> On another note...Last year was my first year involved in cattle and I did what my FIL told me to do. Yep I let them have all 36 acres as they pleased.
> This year I have been rotational grazing...Now when some calves are born they like to go outside of the paddock fence and take their naps. Sometimes the Mamma cow is balling looking frantically all over her 24hr strip. This make me nervous for some reason (I think I can just see the Mamma going through the temp. electrical fence and letting everyone out as well.
> 
> What do you all do if you have this happen? Should I just let the Mamma cows into the bigger part of the paddock when their calves are a few
> 
> 
> TNgrassgrower



My newer born calves will will often go a paddock away for the first few days. Some go further on occasion but I quit worrying about it after the first year. Like Agmantoo said make sure you have a good perimeter fence and if they are getting out in the interior you always have the perimeter fence for security and piece of mind. I only run one strand paddocks and my 1-5 month old calves spend a good bit of time outside the paddock the herd is in. I consider that as creep feeding letting them get to the higher quality forages before the herd does. As they grow they will eventually get taller and heavier enough to where the polywire starts hitting them and then they stay in with the rest of the herd. If I have to make a move across the farm and have newer calves I will make the cow get her calf and make the herd bunch up before moving them.


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## TNgrassgrower

Randyandmegs, 

Thank you for information. I feel much better now after reading your response. I did wasted almost an hour looking for that calf! I will proceed as normal rotational grazing and enjoying the herd.

Much appreciated,

TNgrassgrower


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## 92utownxj

I'm looking for ideas and to see what others have done. I'm improving and working on our grazing set up. I actually have dairy goats, and they need to come to the barn to be milked. It complicates things, but so far we've had good luck with it. We have high tensile electric wire for the perimeter. I plan to have a center lane down the length of the field with a few strands of electric wire. I'll have temporary paddocks off the lane on either side. The temporary wire is poly wire.

What's the best way to open the lane up into the various paddocks? I hate to buy tons of gate handles for wire gates, but I can't think of anything else to do. I plan to use something to block the lane off right after the gate that is open. I keep running it though my head, and I need to figure it out soon. Any advice?


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## DisasterCupcake

That is pretty much exactly what I am going to do. 
After much deliberation about making a portable milk stand, it's just easier to have them come back to the barn, and have a more secure place to sleep.
As for design of center lane and paddocks.. I don't know how else to make the paddocks readily accessible without using the rubber handles. My plan is to make the lane width equal to the gate width. So you can unhook to open a paddock, and hook directly across the lane, blocking access to the rest of the lane.
Mine is a tad more complicated using temporary netting to further limit grazing, but it works fine.


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## TNgrassgrower

I have 1 Mama who routinely leaves her 2 week calf. Eventually the calf goes outside of the fenced off daily graze portion. At some point Mama is Mooing constantly looking for her calf. It has been over 24 hours and she hasn't found her calf yet. Usually I can find the calf pretty easily, but not today. I spent a good amount of time looking to no avail. 

Can I get some advice please? Should I just trying to find the calf and let nature take its course? Should I take the pair to a small 1/2 acre paddock and let them bond more? This is the Mamma's 2 calf.

Thank you,

Tennesseegrassgrower


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## TNgrassgrower

Update, I just let the Mamma out and followed her. She walked 5-10 acres Mooing her ----- off and finally found her calf. Calf sucked for a long time all is well again. Now the Mamma is no longer in the grazing paddock . 

Should I leave her out there or put her up in that smaller paddock with her calf for a few days?


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## Gravytrain

IMO, you're expending significant energy encouraging interactions between a mother cow and her calf that they should be doing naturally on their own. I have a feeling that you are being overly protective and the pair are finding each other when the calf is hungry...perhaps in the dark of night.

If I'm wrong about that and the cow and calf need assistance in keeping themselves in contact with one another...If it were my cows, we would soon be parting company I can assure you.

ETA: When I began raising cattle I obsessed about cow/calf interactions, dominant cow/other cow interactions, etc.. It didn't take me long to realize that I needed to, other than basic common sense husbandry, let the cows be cows. Select for cows that make your life easier with their behavior (calm, good mothering ability, etc.) while demonstrating desirable physical characteristics.


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## TNgrassgrower

Gravy train, You are right! I retired almost 2 years ago and this is my first real year of having cattle. I have been expecting to see a lot more of that motherly love your talking about. I realize it is not worth the time or energy of chasing down a calf basking in the long grass in the sun. I did let that Mamma cow out of the grazing rotation and the pair have the pasture to themselves for now. She didn't bellow (baller) once today. 

On another note, I have 3 heifers in a 1/2 acre lot springing and almost ready to calve. This morning I checked on them and 1 had just entered the second stage of calving. After 45 minutes she finally got a hoof out. Long story short her calf was upside down and twisted. There was no way she could get it out herself. I got a couple neighbors over and they agreed with my assessment. Calf was either already dead or died at this point. They were hesitant of pulling the calf with a calf puller due to the positioning of the calf. I took Mamma to a vet and he evidentially got the calf out with only 3 cranks on a calf puller after about 30 minutes of repositioning the calf. He was a nice guy (new vet too) and soon I told him I was new and willing to learn as much as possible he got in there and gave me some tips and tricks of calving. Even though I lost the calf I feel today was a success as I learned many thing concerning calving.

Cheers,

TNgrassgrower


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## agmantoo

Have you read your recent PMs?


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## TNgrassgrower

I had the pleasure of visiting Agmantoo at his farm. He is a wonderful person willing to teach new people to the rotational grazing concept. We went all around his property to view various ways that he employs the ideas he has introduced to us all here on the site. I enjoyed talking to him for several hours of stimulating conversation while basking in the North Carolina sun. His pasture is utterly amazing to see in person. The pictures he posts look incredible, but to view them in person is nothing less than spectacular. I have a total of 32 cattle half of them calves. My best cow doesn't compare to his worst cow. 

Thank you so much for the visit Agmantoo!!

TNgrassgrower


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## JLS Cattle

Hey Agman, how is your red river crab grass persisting? I guess you have had it a few years now? Does it volunteer each year and seem to come back or is it declining any? 

I was looking seriously at trying RRCG but I kept reading how you need to disturb the soil each spring to get it to germinate and come back. It sounds like most people lightly disc to get it to pop up, but this is not something I'm interested in doing. I want something that will reseed itself without needing any additional work or messing with my late cool season forage.


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## agmantoo

With the RRCG my results seem to reflect the weather conditions that exist or coincide with the current weather each season. An ample moisture in early Spring and good sprouting results. With insufficient rain and stress results. I have shifted from trying to have an ideal plant during warm season to concentrate on what few plants that I can cope with most seasons. My persistent and longest producing forage is endophyte infected KY31. Too wet or too dry is less of a problem. The fescue recovers on its own, occasionally reseeded, once the weather cooperates. I have no crop that produces the volume of forage over the year on dry land. In 2014 my solution to inconsistent/seasonal forage production was to build a reserve of stockpiled hay stored in the new dry hay building. This purchased hay is for emergency feed. I buy this hay and once it is fed the manure becomes fertilizer. I buy the hay during productive years and then store it till droughts. Round bales are bought when there is an abundance for roughly $30/bale and then then stored till needed. This forage has a manure value of $28/ bale when fed. If fertilized, was the feed worth $2 or was the fertilized manure worth $30 and the feed free? My animals are accustomed to eating fescue. This has been a closed herd for more than 18 years.


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## ozarko

What would be the best way to setup my electric fencing on my new, small 11 acre farm? I have about 9 or 10 acres of pasture.

If you look at the picture I've posted you can see the existing perimeter fencing outlined in black, well house in blue and gates in orange. I have one pond (which leaks), but could run pipe and hose from the well house out to any paddocks. I'm imagining I could run around 4 or 5 cows on this? It's mostly KY 31 fescue, but there is lots of clover and other forbs underneath. It hasn't been hayed for a year and no cattle on it for 2 years. There is a gentle slope from the south to the north and east bottoming out shortly before the north fence line.

I'm trying to figure out where I should put feeder lines for the temporary fencing for the paddocks.

Here are the approximate acreage sizes of the marked areas:
A=2.25 acres
B=7 acres
C=0.06 acres
D=0.15 acres

I would appreciate any advice and if you need more information, I'd be happy to provide it.

Thanks!


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## gwithrow

while waiting for those with more expertise to respond, I can throw in my two cents...not sure you are located, but for starters, my cows need shade access from every paddock..summer can be brutal...and of course water and minerals...

it is easier to let the cows walk to a central water, mineral/ shade location than to tote those items around...I do not have perfectly laid out paddocks, or centrally located water....so I have lanes that lead to those things...not a great solution but it allows for the rest the pastures need....I don't see where your cows would get shade?, but if possible that is where I would put water and minerals or close to there....then figure out the most efficient lane pattern to allow them to graze in a new area often....sometimes I have changed where my lanes are after I see how my system in any given paddock works...or in the winter when shade is not so required...

once your perimeter more permanent lines are established, you can 'play' with interior semi permanent lines until you find what works best...sometimes just getting started is the hardest, once you start going on this program you can fine tune and figure out what is the best plan...

I know you are hoping someone will draw lines for you to get you started, but for me not seeing shady area potential makes it harder...I do know for sure that dragging a hose around and a tank and minerals daily is a drag to say the least....

so start with your perimeter lines....make them secure and use as many gates as you can...gates give you options...then work on the idea of lanes or water/shade access....good luck....I do know one thing for sure....this system works and is worth the effort, for whatever size area you are working with....


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## ycanchu2

ozarko said:


> What would be the best way to setup my electric fencing on my new, small 11 acre farm? I have about 9 or 10 acres of pasture.
> 
> If you look at the picture I've posted you can see the existing perimeter fencing outlined in black, well house in blue and gates in orange. I have one pond (which leaks), but could run pipe and hose from the well house out to any paddocks. I'm imagining I could run around 4 or 5 cows on this? It's mostly KY 31 fescue, but there is lots of clover and other forbs underneath. It hasn't been hayed for a year and no cattle on it for 2 years. There is a gentle slope from the south to the north and east bottoming out shortly before the north fence line.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out where I should put feeder lines for the temporary fencing for the paddocks.
> 
> Here are the approximate acreage sizes of the marked areas:
> A=2.25 acres
> B=7 acres
> C=0.06 acres
> D=0.15 acres
> 
> I would appreciate any advice and if you need more information, I'd be happy to provide it.
> 
> Thanks!


 I would draw a line inside the center fence on the B side all the way down to the gate then make a 90 degree right angle over to the woods.
Bring another line from the other side of the woods back across to the fence. make the lane about 30 ft, wide al the way down to the gate. around the woods it can be as wide as it needs to be. Put you a waterer somewhere centrally located in the lane.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo,

I'm not sure if you got any rain from the hurricane but we didn't, it looked like the outer bands of rain hit just 2 counties away and we have not had any fall rain at all to get some fescue growth. A few heavy dew mornings is about all the moisture we have gotten. It never fails as I drilled in $1800 worth of seed on sloped ground and over seeded other pastures have a full drill and at least another pallet of various clovers and Marshall rye. I still have quite a bit of stockpiled grass warm and cool season. I feel sure the warm season stuff is not of great quality at this point. I also purchased fertilized round bales for $25 a bale and have about 300 bales on hand. Would you go ahead and keep the cattle in the rotation or save it and feed hay hoping for rain soon or some combination of both? At what or is there a point that should I give up on seeding grass and save the seed until next year? EarIy this year I was able to almost double the price I paid for the hay and sold off everything that was older than 3 years and could have actually sold it much higher and if this regional drought/flooding keep up I will be in the same position again. This year I did seed less than $200 in Sorghum Sudan grass that really did well and the cattle are still eating regrowth on it right now just waiting on a frost to pull them off and move them for a few weeks. That seemed to have several benefits of shading the grasses in the summer, adding a lot of organic matter to the soil and provide a high energy feed pretty cheap.


















Randy


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## odieclark

does anyone use a cattle delouser? what brand? Does it work? 

I am actually looking for one for goats, but someone mentioned check with the cattle people as the cattle delouser is cheaper and works great!

Thank you!


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## gwithrow

Randy any answer to your question?...i am in the same boat...super dry with a small amount of stockpile areas...the summer grsses are nothing but brown fit only for the cows to stomp down...i have started with round bales...have sent for hay analysis so i know how to supplement. ...my cows will calve starting at the end of nov.....but of course i am not sure the hay i have is enough....is it wiser to sit on the stockpiled areas til january...feed hay now til then? And hope we get rain to at least make step in posts go in?...or just put them on the grass now??


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## randyandmegs

Not much info yet. Our extension agent told me this on planting 
"It depends on if we ever get cold. They way it looks you may be ok to seed late into November. If it rains you will get germination but it may not put on much top growth until spring unless it stays warm into winter."

As far as the warm season grasses and the quality, I'm watching their manure and I seem to still have a decent balance in energy and protein (without supplementing them) from what fescue is mixed in. Not loose from excess protein and not stacking up either. In the stockpiled areas where I stopped grazing at this summer due to seeded out fescue, and I started back at the beginning there is a lot more forage than appears and what I expected. 

I'm just going to continue drilling in seed in hopes of rain at some point. It definitely won't grow if it's not there.


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## WannabeWaltons

Does anyone use non electric fence for rotational grazing for a family cow or two? Would fencing several paddocks be a viable option? 
Also does anyone know how much space you need to devote to a stockpile pasture to graze through the winter? Does anyone here graze year round if so what is your winter like? What zones would make this not a viable option?


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## jwal10

Sure but a non electrified fence has to be a barrier for a cow. 1 tiny smooth wire is not a barrier to a cow. Barb (alone not recommended because IF they tried it can damage an udder) tall enough woven or with a barb on top or high tensile wire fence will work. 

A lot depends on climate for how much pastureland it would take, even here where we can grow grass as well as anywhere, my 1 acre is not enough even though we can run 3 head to the acre, just not in the dry season (especially if grazed too close) nor the entire winter. Also cows make a muddy mess in our wet winters. This is why I have milk goats (sheep work well on pasture all winter) Also best if cows have hay along with all the green, for roughage here....James


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## edwardcharette

The golden rule for rotational grazing is keep grass at least three inches tall. Grazing pastures below three inches would stress the plants by reducing leaf surface grasses use to prepare food and thereby they would resort to food reserves in the root. Eventually the grass depletes its stored reserves and leaves bare spots in your pastures. Turn your animals to graze a field when grass reaches six to eight inches and move them when grasses reach 3 to 4 inches in height.


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## rumenboard

Hello everyone
I found this thread in Jan. 2017 and it took me 8 weeks to read every post. I feel like I went to Grass Growing and Management University. I have decided to implement this practice on my farm and increase the number of head of cow-calf pairs that I am raising. I just hope that some of the posters on this thread are still around to answer some of my questions that may not be answered in previous postings. I raise cattle in Southern Illinois. Thanks in advance.

Jon


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## gwithrow

This whole site is a great resource...there are also a couple of really good books to read....one is by jim gerrish....kick the hay habit is one, another is mangement intensive grazing...actually both of those books are his....

Remember it is a process, and takes a long time to get where you want to be, however each season that you use these practices you will see improvement in your pastures..

Each year we refine what we are doing, based on what is working for our herd and for us..it has been gratifying to see the results and the cows are happy..ask any questions and you will find people here to be very helpful


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## collegeboundgal

Contact your soil and water conservation district for your county. There are programs that will help pay for this (they pay 75%/you pay 25%). It has been the best thing we have done. They even paid for 75% of a new well, well house, tanks, and water lines (different program). We did All the work ourselves aside from having some dozer work done and mulching a lane of ceders down for fence placement. We did rent a backhoe to dig the trenches for the lines. Doing all the work ourselves saved us so much that everything was completely paid for with a little bit left over. Yes we had to do things to their specs, but seriously, they do them that way for a reason... so we did it their way. I also plan on rotation for a lot longer than they require it. 10 yrs I think...


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## rumenboard

I have read this thread thru and was wondering about laying out paddocks for 200 cow-calf pairs in the future on 60 and 80 acre fields. This will be probably a 5-year plan. I have 450 acres currently and hope to add more if the acres become available. I understand that Agmantoo is very good with this type of planning for paddocks. I hope he or someone else can steer me in the right direction. I only want to build permanent fence once if possible.
Thanks Jon


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## chaossmurf

rumenboard said:


> I have read this thread thru and was wondering about laying out paddocks for 200 cow-calf pairs in the future on 60 and 80 acre fields. This will be probably a 5-year plan. I have 450 acres currently and hope to add more if the acres become available. I understand that Agmantoo is very good with this type of planning for paddocks. I hope he or someone else can steer me in the right direction. I only want to build permanent fence once if possible.
> Thanks Jon


can ya clarify that ??? are you wanting to run them on 60-80 acres or the whole 450 ??? I am not an expert on this ---but youd need some danged fast growing grass for the 60-80 acres to hold that many pairs id think


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## agmantoo

rumenboard, it is good to see someone willing to take on a sizable task as you are considering. I need more info prior to my making recommendations. For starters, what breed of cattle are you going to work with? What agriculture growing zone are you in? Do you have the basic agriculture equipment? What will be the backbone crop/forage you plan on feeding? Are you willing to do what is necessary to become a low cost producer? 

As a starter let me share that provided your area can support the growing conditions necessary to generate enough feed to provide 3000 lbs. of forage per year per year your goal of 200 cow/calf pairs is achievable. Actually, IMO you should be able to move on up into 300 cow/calf pairs per year without outside purchased feed.
Can you provide an aerial view of your acreage? Mark any existing sources present for drinking water. IMO it is essential to have a good permanent perimeter fence but hold off at this time for allocating and grazing ares in the 80 acre range. Think of large, but long rectangles inside of the permanent perimeter fence using minimal partitions something in the narrow dimension of 300ft to 450ft and as long as the space can accommodate. I promote efficiency and limited back grazing. I sold feeder calves last week and I remain optimistic. Being a low cost producer is where the success comes from!


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## rumenboard

Chaossmurf
I plan on using the entire 450 acres. Land purchases were done in 60 or 80 acre parcels.
Agmantoo
Would 2or 3 people be able to handle 300 head of cattle with your system of grazing? I am looking at using frame 3 to 4 Black Angus cows. I will try to upload an aerial view. I have been raising beef for 45 years and decided to change my ways, "more profit and less expense". I have a full inventory of cattle equipment at my disposal.


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## rumenboard

Agmantoo
I already have predominately fescue pastures to work with. I am located in So. Illinois.
Thanks Jon


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## agmantoo

rumenboard said:


> Chaossmurf
> I plan on using the entire 450 acres. Land purchases were done in 60 or 80 acre parcels.
> I have not had any problems handling up to 125 plus brood cows and this only takes about 1 to 1 1/2 hours each day. I hire the feeder calves hauled to market and the hauler helps me load the animals. I have no hired help on the farm.
> Agmantoo
> Would 2 or 3 people be able to handle 300 head of cattle with your system of grazing?
> should not be any problem. This workload will be less than you imagine.
> 
> I am looking at using frame 3 to 4 Black Angus cows.
> I am in full agreement with you on this.
> 
> I will try to upload an aerial view. I have been raising beef for 45 years and decided to change my ways, "more profit and less expense". I have a full inventory of cattle equipment at my disposal. IMO you are well on your way





rumenboard said:


> Chaossmurf
> I plan on using the entire 450 acres. Land purchases were done in 60 or 80 acre parcels.
> Agmantoo
> Would 2or 3 people be able to handle 300 head of cattle with your system of grazing? I am looking at using frame 3 to 4 Black Angus cows. I will try to upload an aerial view. I have been raising beef for 45 years and decided to change my ways, "more profit and less expense". I have a full inventory of cattle equipment at my disposal.





rumenboard said:


> Agmantoo
> I already have predominately fescue pastures to work with. I am located in So. Illinois.
> Thanks Jon


 Fescue is my choice since it performs for many months and can tolerate varying weather conditions.


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## agmantoo

rumenboard said:


> Agmantoo
> I already have predominately fescue pastures to work with. I am located in So. Illinois.
> Thanks Jon


Did you state your agriculture zone?


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## agmantoo

rumenboard said:


> Agmantoo
> I already have predominately fescue pastures to work with. I am located in So. Illinois.
> Thanks Jon


Will you be feeding forage only? Most years I can get the herd through on NO hay.


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## rumenboard

Agmantoo
I reside in zone 6a.
I am going to try to move to hay less operation except in dire circumstances.
I currently have 125 acres in row crop production. It will be the last to be converted to pasture.
Still looking for a way to post an aerial view for your consideration.


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## chaossmurf

hey agmantoo I figured id ask you about this idea ---I was watching something about good old saugrum -plese forgive my spelling ---but anyways to the idea ----it can be used to grow a great amount of chicken feed once it goes too seed ---and its basically a sweet grass ----so my question is this ------once you let it go too seed & harvest the seeds --can the rest be fed to cows as a hay alternative or supplement ? would they even eat it ?? --basically whats your thoughts on tossing the non-seedhead parts to the cows ?


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## Nuttynuts75

I am wanting to add cattle to my small farm, I found this post and it has been very helpful. I have had the app for about a year and a half and just studied what I was looking for.i haven't even joined until today. Agmantoo, I am currently reading around post 150 so it is going to take me a minute to catch up. I just wanted to tell you your time and wisdom is not wasted effort. I am reading posts from 2009 like they were written yesterday and I am learning from all of the posts from everyone. Thank you and thanks to godsgapeach for starting this thread. Well it's back to the sidelines studying for me as I have 9 acres 10 miles away and 5 I live on and don't have extra space for major mistakes. Thank you again. 
N


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## dragonmorgan

Hey Agmantoo. I started reading this thread a couple years ago with the hopes of utilizing your great advice on my husbands family cattle farm. Unfortunately many things happened. His grandfather, and owner of all the cows and land, passed away, all the cows were sold (not that that was a bad thing since they were the extreme version of what the ag people tell us we should have and were all huge mutts and not the first one was black) and then his father passed away cutting down the acreage we had to work with from 100 acres to 20 (since nearly everything is tangled up in non-existant wills). Anyway we are looking at this 20 acres as a possible start for us. I have not had a chance to read all the posts in the thread yet but wanted to go ahead and ask a few questions. The problem we have right now is getting the field ready. It used to be used to bale hay for the cattle because it was separated from all the other acreage but a few years ago a fellow came and rented it and put up a good fence and kept some bulls in it. This was short lived though and long story short for the last few years it has only had 2 cows on it. Those were sold recently so it's empty now but it is overrun with broomsedge witch I am now reading thrives in poor soil conditions so I know a soil test is first thing on the list. The next step is the confusing one. Hubby has suggested we burn the broomsedge down and then plant what we want (you have convinced us of the merits of fescue so we are planning to go that route). Would burning be the best option or should we just plow the whole field, fertilize, and start fresh? I really don't know what is in the field other than the broomhedge because it has taken over so much but Im sure it's nothing noteworthy. We want to take the time to get a good pasture ready before we throw cows on it and don't plan to come right out the gate with a large herd. Maybe 10 at most and build from there when we have things ready. Do we need to let the pasture establish itself for a year or once we get something growing would so few cows be easy enough on the forage that we could allocate larger paddocks and have them out there while everything is still getting established. Another problem we have is a water source. The field has no water that I know of although hubby seems to remember a small creek running though the woods/brush on one side. I've haven't seen it yet and any time there were cows in the field we watered them by running a hose to a trough and that's where they drank from so Im not so sure the creek is even still there.

Sorry for the novel. I had never been around cows until I married (10 years ago) and the way his grandfather ran the farm was more of a hobby. He was fine if he only made enough selling the calves to buy hay and grain, which he fed a good part of the year even with all the land. I don't want to run it like that, nor can we afford to, so we are both new to doing it right and we will be the only cattle people around here that I know of who are doing rotational grazing so it's a big learning experience for us both.


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## dragonmorgan

Just wanted to add to/correct my original post. I went and checked the field out today and I was mistaken about the main thing out there being the broomsedge. The last time I had checked the field was around Christmas and from what I could see that was all that was growing but now that we are getting into spring some more things have begun to pop up I noticed some other things growing. Apparently the clover is doing really well because that seems to be what is covering the majority of the pasture. I noticed at least 3 different types (I didn't walk the whole field just some of the upper part). There's white clover, field clover (aka hop clover) and some crimson clover. There's also some patches of blackberry briars and a little bit of rye grass growing in the shadier parts, mainly near where the last 2 haybales the cows were given are at. And then of course the broomsedge. There seemed to maybe be other types of grasses but Im not an expert at identifying those so I don't know what alls there. This leads me to think that burning the field may not be the best option but I don't know how much clover is too much. Some of the places had clover that was as deep as my hand (from wrist to finger tips). I took a few pictures if they would be of any help.


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## agmantoo

dragonmorgan said:


> Just wanted to add to/correct my original post. I went and checked the field out today and I was mistaken about the main thing out there being the broomsedge. The last time I had checked the field was around Christmas and from what I could see that was all that was growing but now that we are getting into spring some more things have begun to pop up I noticed some other things growing. Apparently the clover is doing really well because that seems to be what is covering the majority of the pasture. I noticed at least 3 different types (I didn't walk the whole field just some of the upper part). There's white clover, field clover (aka hop clover) and some crimson clover. There's also some patches of blackberry briars and a little bit of rye grass growing in the shadier parts, mainly near where the last 2 haybales the cows were given are at. And then of course the broomsedge. There seemed to maybe be other types of grasses but Im not an expert at identifying those so I don't know what alls there. This leads me to think that burning the field may not be the best option but I don't know how much clover is too much. Some of the places had clover that was as deep as my hand (from wrist to finger tips). I took a few pictures if they would be of any help.


I would get a soil sample taken and determine what the PH is on your acreage. If the ph is below 5.8 you need lime. The lime will take time before you see the impact on the broom straw. I would not burn the current cover. You need what organic matter you have to deteriorate to contribute to soil improvement as you grow the forage you will need for future rotational grazing. Plant the grass that will be your base crop, seed heavily along with clovers (arrowleaf) for free nitrogen ASAP. I suggest getting the forage thriving prior to getting cattle. It is essential to get the roots established in the beginning and grazing too early will stress the grass while it is becoming established. Running a bush hog close to the ground over the standing growth and sod drilling the grass seed following the clipping would be a good idea in my opinion. Do not let the newly established grass go to seed. Instead keep the grass cut when it is 8 to 10 inches tall. Avoid getting on any wet ground thus minimizing compaction.


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## agmantoo

dragonmorgan said:


> Hey Agmantoo. I started reading this thread a couple years ago with the hopes of utilizing your great advice on my husbands family cattle farm. Unfortunately many things happened. His grandfather, and owner of all the cows and land, passed away, all the cows were sold (not that that was a bad thing since they were the extreme version of what the ag people tell us we should have and were all huge mutts and not the first one was black) and then his father passed away cutting down the acreage we had to work with from 100 acres to 20 (since nearly everything is tangled up in non-existant wills). Anyway we are looking at this 20 acres as a possible start for us. I have not had a chance to read all the posts in the thread yet but wanted to go ahead and ask a few questions. The problem we have right now is getting the field ready. It used to be used to bale hay for the cattle because it was separated from all the other acreage but a few years ago a fellow came and rented it and put up a good fence and kept some bulls in it. This was short lived though and long story short for the last few years it has only had 2 cows on it. Those were sold recently so it's empty now but it is overrun with broomsedge witch I am now reading thrives in poor soil conditions so I know a soil test is first thing on the list. The next step is the confusing one. Hubby has suggested we burn the broomsedge down and then plant what we want (you have convinced us of the merits of fescue so we are planning to go that route). Would burning be the best option or should we just plow the whole field, fertilize, and start fresh? I really don't know what is in the field other than the broomhedge because it has taken over so much but Im sure it's nothing noteworthy. We want to take the time to get a good pasture ready before we throw cows on it and don't plan to come right out the gate with a large herd. Maybe 10 at most and build from there when we have things ready. Do we need to let the pasture establish itself for a year or once we get something growing would so few cows be easy enough on the forage that we could allocate larger paddocks and have them out there while everything is still getting established. Another problem we have is a water source. The field has no water that I know of although hubby seems to remember a small creek running though the woods/brush on one side. I've haven't seen it yet and any time there were cows in the field we watered them by running a hose to a trough and that's where they drank from so Im not so sure the creek is even still there.
> 
> Sorry for the novel. I had never been around cows until I married (10 years ago) and the way his grandfather ran the farm was more of a hobby. He was fine if he only made enough selling the calves to buy hay and grain, which he fed a good part of the year even with all the land. I don't want to run it like that, nor can we afford to, so we are both new to doing it right and we will be the only cattle people around here that I know of who are doing rotational grazing so it's a big learning experience for us both.



20 acres of established forage and good basic rotational skills will support 14 head of frame 4 beef brood cows and their calves the bulk of most years along with timely rain.


----------



## agmantoo

dragonmorgan said:


> Just wanted to add to/correct my original post. I went and checked the field out today and I was mistaken about the main thing out there being the broomsedge. The last time I had checked the field was around Christmas and from what I could see that was all that was growing but now that we are getting into spring some more things have begun to pop up I noticed some other things growing. Apparently the clover is doing really well because that seems to be what is covering the majority of the pasture. I noticed at least 3 different types (I didn't walk the whole field just some of the upper part). There's white clover, field clover (aka hop clover) and some crimson clover. There's also some patches of blackberry briars and a little bit of rye grass growing in the shadier parts, mainly near where the last 2 haybales the cows were given are at. And then of course the broomsedge. There seemed to maybe be other types of grasses but Im not an expert at identifying those so I don't know what alls there. This leads me to think that burning the field may not be the best option but I don't know how much clover is too much. Some of the places had clover that was as deep as my hand (from wrist to finger tips). I took a few pictures if they would be of any help.



I have very little experience with Sorghum growing as feed for cattle. My experience is that the stems are to coarse as a basic forage. The animals will waste a large portion as they consume the plants. The height of the cattle waste, once it passes through the animal, is indicative of too much roughage. The mound will stand 5 to 6 inches tall. My fescue when mixed with clover will only mound 2 plus inches as it is passed.


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## dragonmorgan

Would I need to seed more clovers in if I already have so many different types of clovers. Also I just did I quick check on arrowleaf clovers and I read that they are cool season clovers that are best planted in mid-october in the south (Im in Alabama). Would they be something that could be planted this late in the spring? 

Sorry if I missed you saying something about this earlier. I am only on page 11 of this thread but I know in then you were suggesting that ladino clover be planted so I was hopeful when I saw that we had alot of that growing. Is the arrowleaf better?


----------



## agmantoo

agmantoo said:


> I have very little experience with Sorghum growing as feed for cattle. My experience is that the stems are to coarse as a basic forage. The animals will waste a large portion as they consume the plants. The height of the cattle waste, once it passes through the animal, is indicative of too much roughage. The mound will stand 5 to 6 inches tall. My fescue mixed with clover will only mound 2 plus inches when consumed.


----------



## dragonmorgan

agmantoo said:


> I have very little experience with Sorghum growing as feed for cattle. My experience is that the stems are to coarse as a basic forage. The animals will waste a large portion as they consume the plants. The height of the cattle waste, once it passes through the animal, is indicative of too much roughage. The mound will stand 5 to 6 inches tall. My fescue mixed with clover will only mound 2 plus inches when consumed.


Im not sure what you mean by sorghum. Sorry. Still trying to figure out the technical term for plants. If you are talking about the broomsedge then Im pretty sure cows wont eat it. I've read they will eat it when it's young but once it gets tall like it is they won't. Either way I don't want it in my pasture. I've read it's not too hard to get rid of if we can get the soil nutrients worked out and get it cut down and some better stuff growing. Just trying to figure out where to start.


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## dragonmorgan

Here's a picture of how the main part of the field looks. You get the idea of the scale of the broomsege and you can see the clover mixed in with it. Majority of the green in the picture is clover.
http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/dragonmorgan/media/20170331_160704_zpscnplxuwh.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2


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## agmantoo

dragonmorgan said:


> Would I need to seed more clovers in if I already have so many different types of clovers. Also I just did I quick check on arrowleaf clovers and I read that they are cool season clovers that are best planted in mid-october in the south (Im in Alabama). Would they be something that could be planted this late in the spring?
> 
> Sorry if I missed you saying something about this earlier. I am only on page 11 of this thread but I know in then you were suggesting that ladino clover be planted so I was hopeful when I saw that we had alot of that growing. Is the arrowleaf better?


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## agmantoo

your posted pic certainly supports the fact that you have a clover that is well adapted to your location. I do think that your PH on that field is too low. A soil sample is what I would do and then see how the current clover will perform. There are clover varieties that are suited to low Ph and sandy soils thus the recommendation.


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## dragonmorgan

Thank you so much for taking the time to go over this with me. We are working on getting soil samples but I am positive the PH is low. Im checking around to see where I can get some fertilizer and try and figure how to spread it.


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## agmantoo

dragonmorgan said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to go over this with me. We are working on getting soil samples but I am positive the PH is low. Im checking around to see where I can get some fertilizer and try and figure how to spread it.


I would put the lime on first. It takes time for the lime to do its thing.

If you have a high tech sewage processing facility near you check with them. Near my farm is such a processor and they treat the liquid prior to releasing. The waste water is sent through lime to improve the PH of the processed liquid going into a stream. I got roughly 100 ton of the waste lime just for the haul bill. A nearby farmer spread the lime for me


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## dragonmorgan

Thanks so much Agman! I found a waste water treatment plant about 45 mins away. Don't know anything about the way they process the water but Im def going to give them a call (and by me I mean my husband, he's far better at talking to people than I am, especially when it comes to business).


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## rumenboard

Agmantoo
I am getting the first 40 acres setup for rotational grazing. It is 1/2 mile long with the shade on one end. Any ideas on how to provide shade closer. Trees are just too far for livestock to travel each day IMO. I am open to any ideas.
Thanks
Jon


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## TNgrassgrower

Hello everyone, everything is going great here in Tennessee. I was all set to feed no hay last winter until the drought hit our area. Fast forward, I have been the only person strip grazing my herd this spring and I was able to stop feeding hay a month before the traditional guys around here. I am feeding 25 cows and a couple of new calves on 5 acres! I know this is not sustainable on winter wheat and Marshall Ryegrass, but I will be planting Pearl Millet and Sorghum hybrids for the summer slump. I am happy to report that I was finally approved by NRCS for my water plans. I am installing 2000' of underground pipeline with quick disconnects spaced every 200' and 1 permanent waterer connected to a new well that hit water at 60'. As I move the herd everyday I will move a small trailer that has a 110 gal water tub and mineral/salt available on it. The permanent waterer is there mostly for a time when we have the leave the area. 

I do not have enough pasture for a pure fescue system to stockpile enough for winter. I have been reading a lot about Brassicas for fall/winter production. I will be trying out several varieties and report back the findings. My goal, as is all of ours as rotational strip grazers, is to feed NO hay...ever. 

I have a question for you *Agmantoo*...What are you using in a mixture to spray your herd for flies? I remember you that you make your own, but I did not write down what you are using. 
Also, I got ahold of a purebred Gelbvieh bull calf from a friend. I have read mixed results about using them on Angus cows. What so you think about them? He will be 16-17 months when I put him in with the herd. I plan on putting him in 3-4 weeks before the real bull for 63 days.

As always thanks for the replies and have a great day.


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## randyandmegs

Agmantoo, good to see you back active again. FYI..I did send you emails while you were away checking on you and wishing you well. 
How does the manure look for your cattle this time of year? I went to some classes a year or so ago and the guy talked about "reading" the manure in a way to determine forage protein, lignin and fiber content in order to determine if supplementation was needed (I think he was mostly talking about non fescue dominant areas of the country). They said the class would be posted online in a few months so I stopped taking notes early and then they never posted the video so I don't recall all of what he said. I don't ever have manure that stacks up so to speak. The closest I got was in Feb this year where I was trying to improve some ground and fed quite a bit of hay rolled out over several acres. Right now they are all really loose. Is that a sign of excess protein or high water content etc? Does this negatively effect performance at all or enough to worry about, or is it wasting forages by just running through them and is there a way to manage it without going back to feeding hay along with the daily moves? I know late last summer I drilled in some Sorghum Sudan in my lanes and the manure seem to look about right. The paddock was normal mixed forages while the lane was 8-9' tall mature S/S grass. At $19 a bag it seemed like a cheap enough experiment to try and have some quality forage in case of a drought or during the summer slump and build some organic matter. Since we had nearly 75 days with no rain in the fall I wasn't able to get anything else growing during the fall to try and have something green or growing year round so a good bit of the residue from that experiment is still there and didn't get broken down as I had hoped it would.

Randy
Western NC foothills.


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## agmantoo

randyandmegs said:


> How does the manure look for your cattle this time of year? I went to some classes a year or so ago and the guy talked about "reading" the manure in a way to determine forage protein,


The rotational grazing is going great here! I contribute that to the recent rains here along with the kick the fescue is getting from the clovers that are contributing to the forage I am feeding at this time. I will attempt to get a few pics to post soon.


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## ycanchu2

I recently got another batwing bushhog with dual wheels in the centersection, between them and the tractor tires, they smash about 90% of the manure piles. Will that suffice in lieu of dragging? Anyone doing that or dragging something behind the bushhog to make one trip?


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## Gravytrain

You could pull a drag harrow/chain harrow behind it. I pull an 8' one behind a brush hog or by itself behind an atv.


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## ycanchu2

In clipping the fescue, this time of year fescue will head out before you can get thru the rotation. is everyone clipping strictly behind the cattle? or also going in front of the cattle and removing the seedheads?


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## chaossmurf

I love that QUESTION ycanchu2 --ive been trying to think of how to word it myself ,because if I go hit the seedheads right as their forming im guessing the seeds wouldn't form & become viable seeds to help keep the field planted well or fully whatever -----and im wondering if I wait till the day before cows get to the area --if the seeds would be toxic enuff that the following chickens would get effected from eating the seeds laying around ??? or for that matter eat all the seeds that fall & therefore not effectively replanting any seeds into the ground from cattle traffic ????


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## collegeboundgal

Well, what I've been doing is clipping everything but at different heights. The fields that the cows just came off of get clipped from 4 or 5 inches. The fields the cows will be moving to SOON don't get clipped till after the cows move through them as it takes me many days to clip everything and with the storms and wrk and no one to watch the kids, it can take over a week or 2 to get everything clipped. So I start clipping in fields where the cows won't be for 2-3 weeks and clip higher at 12 inches or more. The longer before cows will be in a field, the shorter I clip. Then I just wrk my way to right behind the cows. As they are moved out, I will clip right behind them if that field hasn't been clipped yet.


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## ufo_chris

I have a pasture that I don't need right now and want to get it ready for winter stockpiling. I will be brush hogging it periodically but my question is how often and how short should I do it since there will be no cattle on it till winter?
Since there are no cattle on it right now would it be more beneficial to clip it real short? I've just noticed before when we've cut a piece of field for a lawn area it came in real nice if you mow it short like a lawn.
And I guess this way I would have to do it less often? I normally clip behind the cows but not real short.
I'm in northeastern Ohio in the pasture is mixed I don't really know my grasses but it has some clover in it also.
I have been using it for around 5 years with the Agmantoo rotational grazing and they did really well on it.
I've just always had more cattle till now and couldn't set anything aside or go into winter too long.


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## ycanchu2

I wouldn't go real short....too short causes the grass to use its root reserves to grow back. ....so your not gaining much. When you see the grass grow up and start drooping over then its starting to slow down. Clip the blades to no more than half at that point. That will stimulate it to start growing again.
In many ways its similar to a yard, just taller.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks ycanchu2, I didn't think I could but I thought it's worth asking would be less work and resources. 
Also,when should I cut it for the last time bf winter , I'm thinking maybe end of August if it's not real dry , that way it still has all of September at least to come back?
We usually get frosts in October.
Oh ,and how long can I let it get between clippings?
I'm thinking it's probably good to let the grasses go to seed once or twice but then the weeds will also LOL


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## ycanchu2

When should you stop clipping? Don'y know,but probably later than you think. I would think into Sept., Oct., for your area. Just remember, when the blades droop over, it is starting to slow down. That's when it needs to be clipped in order to stimulate more growth. It could be 2 or 3 weeks maybe longer in between clippings.


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## ufo_chris

Thanks! 
I figured it's not going to grow much in October, gets pretty cool,and a few frosts,that's why I was thinking end of August let it grow Sept bc it's usually kinda dry by then also.
But I will watch the weather and see what the forecast is around that time and I guess decide then when to clip it the last time.
I will watch for the drooping, I did not know about that, thank you !


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## ycanchu2

I certainly don't know it all, but I don't think you can clip fescue too much as long as its not cut too short or bone dry. You could take a small section and mow it late into the fall and see if there is any difference......like next year. Grass will atrophy just like an unexcercised muscle. I let some stand last year all year untouched and this year it is my poorest pasture.


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## ferdberfel

Agman, if you are still around. I have read up to page 86 over a period of months. You may have already told us, if so I apologize for asking again. How short do you let the cattle graze the grass during the growing season? 
I am about 2/3 of the way south in Illinois and the grass totally quits growing in the winter. How short would you let them graze then?


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## ycanchu2

ferdberfel said:


> Agman, if you are still around. I have read up to page 86 over a period of months. You may have already told us, if so I apologize for asking again. How short do you let the cattle graze the grass during the growing season?
> I am about 2/3 of the way south in Illinois and the grass totally quits growing in the winter. How short would you let them graze then?


I'm not Agman.....but I will give my two cents. The shorter you graze a grass the longer it takes to recover....anytime of the year. The exception to that would be crabgrass. Crabgrass is real good, but if your whole farm is in it you won't have any winter grazing since it dies with a hard freeze.
If you have a lot of fescue...cattle tend to not graze it too short in the summer unless forced to, since its not very palatable in the summer. When it starts frosting on it, it starts getting sweeter and they really like it. Grazing fescue short in the winter doesn't seem to be an issue.


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## ycanchu2

How is everyone? I wanted to share something I tried last year that I think holds a lot of promise. In a normal rainfall year I have found that I only need about 2/3's to 3/4 's of my pasture in the spring flush and into the summer and even up till late fall. So that 1/3 or so of my pasture I simply clipped/bushhogged about every month to 6 weeks. I think I wound up cutting it about 4 or 5 times.
That it is putting a whole lot of organic matter back to the soil. After doing that all year the fescue really came on strong last fall. That section looks the best it has ever looked. Next year I'll set aside another 1/3 or so and do the same thing....and then the next year and so on. In 3 to 4 years the whole farm gets an influx of organic matter. I started grazing the clipped area in Nov.
I think its a good way to build organic matter and fescue seems to love OM.
I am also clipping behind the cattle.


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## rumenboard

ycanchu2
Thanks for the information. I am in the fence building and pasture improvement mode right now. Hope to be up and running
this spring with the cows and calves that I have before expanding.


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## odieclark

Wow, love the idea of a plan ycanchu2! Also, on how well it worked for you so far! Our growing season is much shorter, but we still need to come up with a better growing schedule and way to graze our livestock.


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## lmrose

ycanchu2 said:


> How is everyone? I wanted to share something I tried last year that I think holds a lot of promise. In a normal rainfall year I have found that I only need about 2/3's to 3/4 's of my pasture in the spring flush and into the summer and even up till late fall. So that 1/3 or so of my pasture I simply clipped/bushhogged about every month to 6 weeks. I think I wound up cutting it about 4 or 5 times.
> That it is putting a whole lot of organic matter back to the soil. After doing that all year the fescue really came on strong last fall. That section looks the best it has ever looked. Next year I'll set aside another 1/3 or so and do the same thing....and then the next year and so on. In 3 to 4 years the whole farm gets an influx of organic matter. I started grazing the clipped area in Nov.
> I think its a good way to build organic matter and fescue seems to love OM.
> I am also clipping behind the cattle.


It is a very good idea what you are doing. We call it "green manure" and you are right it is adding nutrients back to the soil. Rotating pasture gives each piece a rest period time to regenerate its self. In ancient times farmers rested their land every seven years. I'm not sure if they rotated or rested the whole farm. I suspect it was rotation so part of the land was always in production .


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## ycanchu2

Yes...green manure...I haven't heard that term in a long time. Usually that's related more to plowing under a green crop. But, nonetheless, still a form of it.
I had been finding that with the lanes for the cattle to go to shade and water...which are necessary....the cattle walk off a lot of nutrients/organic matter.
This way it all stays right there with a heavy dose too. Basically, the same as mowing a yard and leaving the grass clippings. I'm thinking 3 to 4 feet of residue or more going back to the soil.


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## collegeboundgal

We got virtually no fall rains and it has been bitterly cold for our area this winter with a really nice 60's degree day thrown in to make you yearn for spring. So we have been feeding hay. We roll out our bales and no matter if they do waste some of it I don't mind as much because we feed on our poorest pastures. The amount of poop and left over hay only improve the ground. 
On the "to do" list for this year is to finish the electric fencing around the fields that still need it so we can move the goats into every field the cows go to for brush and weed control.


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## Old Dog Mike

agmantoo, I am interested too. Do you ever have to supplement with bales of hay or anything?

I may have posted this question too sooon. I see there are six more pages to this thread. But I'll leave it for now and delete it lateer after I've read the other 6 pages.

Ha! There are 179 more pages!


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## randyandmegs

Old Dog Mike said:


> agmantoo, I am interested too. Do you ever have to supplement with bales of hay or anything?
> 
> I may have posted this question too sooon. I see there are six more pages to this thread. But I'll leave it for now and delete it lateer after I've read the other 6 pages.
> 
> Ha! There are 179 more pages!


I don’t think I have seen Agmantoo on here in quite some time. The best I remember he only had enough reserve hay for emergencies like severe drought. 

From my experience there are some great weather years for making hay and it can be bought for under the value of the fertilizer/nutrients contained in it. I feed it out in poorer ground or fields tested with the lowest organic matter or even hold it until a drought hits and use it as needed or I can usually sell it for double what I paid for it and people still think it’s a steal at that price.


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## Old Dog Mike

Well, I'm on page 10 now. By the time I reach 180 maybe he'll stop by again.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Hi. Have been reading this link over the last two weeks and find it fascinating. Live in western Washington but have bought a farm in Maine where I will move in four years. We want to raise highland cattle although have no experience ( that will ba an experience!). I am on page 16 so far, having looked ahead, I hope agmantoo is alright


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> BTW have there been many posts of people raising highlanders this way?
> 
> Have a good day


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## ufo_chris

I raised my highlands that way.
Worked very well


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## Wilbah

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Hi. Have been reading this link over the last two weeks and find it fascinating. Live in western Washington but have bought a farm in Maine where I will move in four years. We want to raise highland cattle although have no experience ( that will ba an experience!). I am on page 16 so far, having looked ahead, I hope agmantoo is alright


Heres someone you might contact that is grass raising Highlands in NH. Maybe they can give you some insights. But depending on where in ME you will be you might have a very different growing season/snow season than they do. 

https://www.milessmithfarm.com/about-us.html


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## prinellie

godsgapeach said:


> Hi, all. Our family has been a farming family for 4 generations now and my brother and I would like to convert it to a more sustainable state. We've got at least 250 acres in pasture, but the 150 head of cattle have been allowed to roam wherever they please and graze on their favorite grasses--mostly fescue. Then they get alfalfa or bermuda hay in winter.
> 
> What I'd like to know is how best to plant seed for forage to introduce the rotation and eventually have fresh forage year round.
> 
> Also, would you suggest portable fencing or permanent paddocks?
> 
> One major consideration for us will be water availability. Since the cows are able to roam right now, they have access to a creek that backs the property. I can't envision how to include the creek (across some of the terrain we have--woods and steep hills) while limiting the grazing area, so some other watering method would be necessary.
> 
> Thanks for all suggestions!
> Godsgapeach


I know this post was from a long time ago, but for anyone who is interested in regenerative farming, a good place to start is to read a book by Gabe Brown 'Dirt To Soil'.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

prinellie said:


> I know this post was from a long time ago, but for anyone who is interested in regenerative farming, a good place to start is to read a book by Gabe Brown 'Dirt To Soil'.


I just finished this book as well as " All Flesh is Grass" Very helpful. Now to actually make it work!


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## muleskinner2

I can't even imagine a place with that much grass. Where I live, in a good year with a lot of rain 250 acres would not feed one cow, or three goats.


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## FreeRange

muleskinner2 said:


> I can't even imagine a place with that much grass. Where I live, in a good year with a lot of rain 250 acres would not feed one cow, or three goats.


Having driven from Amarillo to Albuquerque, I can believe that.


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## Critter Keeper

It is probably in the thread somewhere but I am needing to purchase new insulators for my existing fences. What are the best ones that all of you have found?


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## Alice In TX/MO

Just go to Tractor Supply and get the ones designed for your situation. There’s not much difference


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## LAFarm

We have been considering a no-til seeder for planting winter grass without having to plow the existing warm season grass up in order to plant. Has anyone had any difficulty grazing on freshly planted pasture? Do the cattle wipe it out soon as it sprouts and before the root system gets established? Bought a hay king pasture renovator a few years back and it has made a big difference. Located in central Louisiana, so winters are normally not that bad compared to Iowa, Kansas, the Dakotas or Connecticut. Broadcasting ryegrass without tilling does not yield very much at all. Would like to hear if anyone else has tried this and what type of results they have gotten. Thanks.


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## Gravytrain

If you are talking about seeding cool season perennial grasses into an existing sward of warm season perennial grasses, then yes, it can be done, but it may be challenging. The biggest hurdle is to get your cool season species established before the warm season grasses leave dormancy. Your best bet would be to heavily over graze the warm season grasses in the pastures you want to plant in the dormant (cool) season. Then you can no till your cool season grasses in. Use the "pull test" to mimic how a cow grazes grass...grab firmly and yank the new forage to see if it is sufficiently established before allowing stock to graze that area.


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## HDRider

LAFarm said:


> We have been considering a no-til seeder for planting winter grass without having to plow the existing warm season grass up in order to plant. Has anyone had any difficulty grazing on freshly planted pasture? Do the cattle wipe it out soon as it sprouts and before the root system gets established? Bought a hay king pasture renovator a few years back and it has made a big difference. Located in central Louisiana, so winters are normally not that bad compared to Iowa, Kansas, the Dakotas or Connecticut. Broadcasting ryegrass without tilling does not yield very much at all. Would like to hear if anyone else has tried this and what type of results they have gotten. Thanks.


You have to wait to graze. I no till in pearl millet in the spring. I wait until it is about 18", then they can hit it hard maybe 4 times.

Planting cool season in the fall, you need to wait until mid spring or later to graze.


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## broncocasey

Watch Greg Judy on YouTube.


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## LAFarm

Gravytrain said:


> If you are talking about seeding cool season perennial grasses into an existing sward of warm season perennial grasses, then yes, it can be done, but it may be challenging. The biggest hurdle is to get your cool season species established before the warm season grasses leave dormancy. Your best bet would be to heavily over graze the warm season grasses in the pastures you want to plant in the dormant (cool) season. Then you can no till your cool season grasses in. Use the "pull test" to mimic how a cow grazes grass...grab firmly and yank the new forage to see if it is sufficiently established before allowing stock to graze that area.


I noticed that you referenced cool season perennial grasses and I follow what you are saying. The difference in costs of annual winter grass and perennial winter grass is pretty substantial. Also, waiting until the following spring before grazing would require us to basically remove that paddock from grazing for that winter season. The real benefit would come that following fall/winter. To permanently seed the place would take several years. Guess I didn't think it would take so long for the root system to become established enough to survive and recover from grazing. I appreciate your insight and suggestions and hope to acquire a no-till seeder so we can begin the process of upgrading our paddocks. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.


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## LAFarm

HDRider said:


> You have to wait to graze. I no till in pearl millet in the spring. I wait until it is about 18", then they can hit it hard maybe 4 times.
> 
> Planting cool season in the fall, you need to wait until mid spring or later to graze.


Are you planting the pearl millet into a pasture that has an established warm season grass? Roughly how long does it take to reach 18" height? Thanks for sharing your practices with me.


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## LAFarm

broncocasey said:


> Watch Greg Judy on YouTube.


I have heard of him and will look him up. Thanks!


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## HDRider

LAFarm said:


> Are you planting the pearl millet into a pasture that has an established warm season grass? Roughly how long does it take to reach 18" height? Thanks for sharing your practices with me.


I am planting it where my cows eat hay through the winter so anything that was there is destroyed.

About 4 to 5 weeks until they first grazed it at ~18"


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## AmericanStand

New grass will survive a cutting long before a grazing.


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## Gravytrain

LAFarm said:


> I noticed that you referenced cool season perennial grasses and I follow what you are saying. The difference in costs of annual winter grass and perennial winter grass is pretty substantial. Also, waiting until the following spring before grazing would require us to basically remove that paddock from grazing for that winter season. The real benefit would come that following fall/winter. To permanently seed the place would take several years. Guess I didn't think it would take so long for the root system to become established enough to survive and recover from grazing. I appreciate your insight and suggestions and hope to acquire a no-till seeder so we can begin the process of upgrading our paddocks. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.


I was only clarifying whether you were planting annuals or perennials because the problem with overseeding non-dominant season perennial pasture into a dominant season pasture (in your case cool season into warm season...in my case warm season into cool season) is getting the introduced species to establish before the dominant species kick into high gear. Most annual grasses grow fast enough where establishment isn't really an issue, as long as good seed to soil contact is accomplished. Cereal rye does establish slowly if planted in the spring...if planted in the fall, spring growth is early and abundant.


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## LAFarm

HDRider said:


> I am planting it where my cows eat hay through the winter so anything that was there is destroyed.
> 
> About 4 to 5 weeks until they first grazed it at ~18"


That is pretty quick. Will share this with my Dad for us to try out. Thanks again>


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## HDRider

LAFarm said:


> That is pretty quick. Will share this with my Dad for us to try out. Thanks again>


Double check me on the time thing. I have to say I was not focused on that. It seems slow to come up, but once it was up it grew fast. I got 4 grazing the last one was after I mowed it thinking it was done. Cows loved it.


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## dalucl

I have a question about forage production that iam sure has been discussed in this thread how do I serch this thread


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## HDRider

dalucl said:


> I have a question about forage production that iam sure has been discussed in this thread how do I serch this thread


At the upper part of the page


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