# 9mm Balistics



## vallyfarm (Oct 24, 2006)

I picked up a little Hi Point carbine and love this little sucker. I'm holding a 5" grouping at 100 yds shooting cheap 115gr plinking ammo with it. My question is if the bullets have anything left at that range, or are they just hitting too soft to actually do any damage at that range? How far out is a 9mm able to connect and hurt?:croc: I know it's no 30-06, but I know they will put the slap on ya at close range. Thanks for any comments. Mike


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

If you confine your shots to 50 yds or less, on non-spooked game, a lung shot or a CNS shot will get you meat. As to 2 leggeds, well I always like a long gun better than a short one, and therefore, its what you got? Then its good.

If I had to have a dual purpose carbine style gun, I'd prefer one the short cowboy style levers like Winchester or Marlin make in a .357 or .44 mag.

Learn to shot and handle it good and likely no one with ill intent will get near you or your family.






vallyfarm said:


> I picked up a little Hi Point carbine and love this little sucker. I'm holding a 5" grouping at 100 yds shooting cheap 115gr plinking ammo with it. My question is if the bullets have anything left at that range, or are they just hitting too soft to actually do any damage at that range? How far out is a 9mm able to connect and hurt?:croc: I know it's no 30-06, but I know they will put the slap on ya at close range. Thanks for any comments. Mike


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Did you get the new 995TS?
I have the old style Hi point 995, and while it'll punch a hole at 100 yards, I don't know if it'd bring down bigger game.
At 50 yards, it'll drop most things within reason.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I wouldn't bet my life on a 9mm at 100yds.

It's a nice little gun, but 9mm is sorely underpowered even at close range, compared to the magnums (357 and 44). Wouldn't attempt shooting a wild boar with one at ten feet. Wouldn't hesitate with the 44 out to 50yds.

Two legged beasts? Might not stop em, but would probably encourage them to go the other way, instead of approaching closer where you might get a better shot.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

When I was younger I got hit with some 12 gauge bird shot at about 70 yards. Didn't even penetrate the jean jacket I was wearing, though some of the pellets caught me across the back of the hand and stung like the devil. 

There's this chart on ballistics:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm

A 9mm at 100 yards isn't going to have anywhere near the power it does at sub-20 yard ranges, but it's not something your target is going to laugh off either. A hollow point entering the body even at a slow velocity is going to hurt. A LOT. Your biggest problem with range in a handgun is going to be accuracy. I can't hit a pie plate at 100 yards if you give me all the time in the world to do it. I have no illusions that I'd be able to do it at a pie plate that was firing back at me.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I wasn't aware that there was any such thing as "cheap 9mm ammo" any more. . . .?!?!

When I lowered my standards and went into a chinafarts recently I was kinda shocked at the price of 9's.........


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I hit a running jackrabbit at 125 yards with a 9mm 124 gr JHP once. I was well into the high capacity magazine when I finally connected. The bullet grazed his side and slit him from hip to shoulder, snipping off the ribs along the way. 

Doesn't mean much, but it does show you could get badly hurt by a 9mm at that range.


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Checking my Speer ballistics table, assuming your 115 grains bullets are leaving the carbine at about 1300-1400 fps, they will still be going 1036-1086 fps at 100 yards. That will give you about 250-300 foot pounds of energy out there. Better than throwing rocks.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Michael Kawalek said:


> Checking my Speer ballistics table, assuming your 115 grains bullets are leaving the carbine at about 1300-1400 fps, they will still be going 1036-1086 fps at 100 yards. That will give you about 250-300 foot pounds of energy out there. Better than throwing rocks.


....and there's your answer. Would those numbers be based on something along the lines of a +P load, or a standard load? I'm also curious, bein' as how most factory 9mm ammo is loaded for a pistol, if a slower burning powder could make better use of the longer carbine barrell and squeeze a bit more velocity out of it. 

Neat little carbines, those hi-points. Always wanted to take one for a spin.


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## FreightTrain (Nov 5, 2005)

i would like to know how NATO rounds measure up against the others.. I buy em when i can find em


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## hillbillly (Jun 28, 2009)

the local gunshop has 2 of those hi-point 9mm carbines @$275 each, tax paid.
thinking about getting one for plinking.
but haven't seen much 9 mm ammo around recently.
easier to find .45 ACP and .40 S & W, around here, at least.


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

swamp man said:


> ....and there's your answer. Would those numbers be based on something along the lines of a +P load, or a standard load? I'm also curious, bein' as how most factory 9mm ammo is loaded for a pistol, if a slower burning powder could make better use of the longer carbine barrell and squeeze a bit more velocity out of it.


I got the numbers out of my Lyman reloading manual that has 9mm rifle data. I then flipped open the Speer manual to look at their ballistics table for a 9mm hollowpoint.

As far as I can tell the Lyman data was standard 36,000 PSI data, it doesn't list numbers for +P.

Looking at Lyman's published data, 9mm doesn't really get that much of a performance boost from the longer barrel because of the powders being used and the tiny case capacity of the 9mm. Typically 100-200 fps increase. If you know the velocity of your NATO ammo, add 100-200 fps to that.

You typically get better performance upgrades from revolver cartridges like .357 and .44 magnum because they can hold a lot of slow burning powder. Testing my own load with Lyman's 358477 bullet being pushed by 12.0 grains of Blue Dot, it leaves my 6" revolver at 1440 fps. That same load in my lever rifle is going 1810fps. At one hundred yards it should still be going about 1340 fps with 600 foot pounds of energy.

I'm totally uneffected by recent ammo shortages because I pick up all the used brass at the range and reload my own. I also cast my own bullets out of scrap wheelweights I get from the garage. Here's a pic of a 9mm load made with the same 358477 bullet.


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## FreightTrain (Nov 5, 2005)

i havnt reloaded in years, but, isnt that the crimp ring thats showing on the bullets?


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

FreightTrain said:


> i havnt reloaded in years, but, isnt that the crimp ring thats showing on the bullets?


Yes it is:funky looking isn't it! 
I originally took this picture to show how I loaded this bullet into a 9mm. It really looks like it couldn't possaibly feed, but it doesn't jam in my 9mm Ruger and has been 100% reliable!

By the way, if you look at the case mouth carefully, you'll notice that there's still some residual case flairing that my Lee crimp die doesn't remove. I more recently got a second 9mm Wather that would jam with this load. The cartridges would feed into the chamber, but the slide would stop before locking into battery. The Wather had a slightly tighter chamber that wouldn't allow this round to fully chamber. Solved that problem though by getting a real Lyman taper crimping die which removes the last of the flair and now gives me flawless chambering in both guns.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

How do you lube your bullets? Do you size them?



Michael Kawalek said:


> I got the numbers out of my Lyman reloading manual that has 9mm rifle data. I then flipped open the Speer manual to look at their ballistics table for a 9mm hollowpoint.
> 
> As far as I can tell the Lyman data was standard 36,000 PSI data, it doesn't list numbers for +P.
> 
> ...


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

9mm's are fun, to shoot, but would stick to either the .44 or .357 for serious shooting.

Large cap mag 9mm is good weapon for covering fire while you hauling butt and retreating to a better position.
Point it backwards, haul butt and keep pulling the trigger.....


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## Wilhelm (Jun 1, 2003)

Just out of curiousity, are these new carbines that much more in price? I picked up mine for $165 with 2 mags. It was used, but like new condition.

$275 seems like a lot to pay for a high point carbine.:shrug:


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Michael Kawalek said:


> I got the numbers out of my Lyman reloading manual that has 9mm rifle data. I then flipped open the Speer manual to look at their ballistics table for a 9mm hollowpoint.
> 
> As far as I can tell the Lyman data was standard 36,000 PSI data, it doesn't list numbers for +P.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'd much rather have a nice little levergun in .357 magnum.
It'll reach out there & touch 'em at a few more yards, with much better power. A .44 magnum is even better.
Heyy even my old Winchester Cowboy gun in .45 Colt is a better option, as I see it.
I can use it for deer, up here in Indiana.
But.....Have Fun.


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## TheMrs (Jun 11, 2008)

FYI from DH, (who is a firearms instructor), when researching handgun ballistics, the data is typically based on the bullet being fired from a 4 inch barrel. When you take the same ammo and go from a 4 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel, it will increase the velocity by 40%. Therefore, you would be surprised at what "handgun" ammo can do when fired through a carbine rifle.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> When you take the same ammo and go from a 4 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel, it will *increase the velocity by 40%*.


I think that's an overly generous estimate.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132243



> The *chronograph data *in magazine reviews of guns like the Ruger PC9 and Kel-tec Sub2000 carbines indicates that even +P+ ammo gains at most 200fps in a 16" barrel. It works out to about *10-12% extra velocity *from a gun that is over twice as heavy and four times as long as a typical service pistol.



http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=158684



> Comparisons of muzzle velocities of the 4-inch pistol and the 16.5-inch carbine revealed *only a 6 percent increase in velocity with the carbine*


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

A 9mm doesn't have the powder capacity to give a great increase from a carbine. I once made a 357 Maximum with a 24" barrel. That thing gave outstanding ballistics. Shooting a 10" Dan Wesson revolver was a blasting experience, shooting the rifle was a pleasure. The same would be true for the bigger revolver cases, too.


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## Catshooter (May 11, 2009)

Most of the replies to this thread missed the fact that even thought the 9 has a very small powder capacity, how much a longer barrel gains depends on the particular powder being burned.

When I was into the 9, I did quite a bit of comparing between my four inch Glock and my sixteen inch Kel-Tec carbine.

Most rounds went from 1300 + fps to 1500 + in the carbine. But the 115 grain PowerMax went from 1320 to 1730. Six percent increase? Try over 30%.

Post #12 tells the tale. Blue Dot is a slow powder for a 9 and look at the increase he posted. He shows almost 400 feet per second.

The real point is until you _measure_ it, you don't know. What a person feels or thinks don't really apply in ballistics. 

Isn't learning fun? 


Cat


Cat


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Post #12 tells the tale. Blue Dot is a slow powder for a 9 and look at the increase he posted. He shows almost 400 feet per second


But that wasnt a 9 mm load
That was a 357



> The real point is until you measure it, you don't know


That's why I posted the military tests. They *measured *it and got 6%


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Catshooter said:


> Most of the replies to this thread missed the fact that even thought the 9 has a very small powder capacity, how much a longer barrel gains depends on the particular powder being burned.
> 
> When I was into the 9, I did quite a bit of comparing between my four inch Glock and my sixteen inch Kel-Tec carbine.
> 
> ...


No, not when it's presented in a patronizing, "know it all" sort of way, it aint.

...and as has been pointed out already, the posted increases weren't in reference to the 9mm.


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Chronographing my own loads is on hold right now because of the hole I put in mine.








But, I've looked at the published data in the reloading manuals and their numbers more or less mirror mine for the .357.

What their numbers say for 9mm, .40, and .45 carbines is that the rifle barrel increase is not as much. If you look at the Lyman #48 manual for example, a 147 grain bullet is going about 1000 fps out of a 4" barrel, and only about 1100 out of a 16" barrel. That's only a 10% increase. For .40 (rifle I have) it's about 1000fps and 1200 fps respectively. Say a 20% increase. I'm at work right now, so I'll have to get back to you later for the 115 grain data specificly.

If you don't mind waiting a while, I can answer this question myself because my replacement Chrony will come for Christmas. I can then give you the side by side comparison of the .40 pistol and .40 rifle, shot again with Blue Dot powder. Again, it's NOT a 9mm, but a closer comparison than a .357 or a .44 is.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I used to work for a rancher that had Chronograph once.
He tried to chrono 4 shot 12 gauge once..............


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If you don't mind waiting a while, I can answer this question myself because my *replacement Chrony *will come for Christmas.


Aim a little higher


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Aim a little higher


Hey, that just might work! I'll try that!

Here's data from Lyman's #48 manual. I selected the maximum velocity load for three bullet weights.

bullet powder pistol rifle difference
115 Power pistol 1212 1409 197
125 Blue Dot 1163 1270 107
147 Blue Dot 1052 1132 80

Hope that settles things.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I had one of the early cheaper chronos in the 80s. I loved it and used it weekly. One day, shooting a 10" TC 30-30 Improved with a 165 SP, I shot it in the face and it exited the rump. The company was very nice and sent me a new one at a greatly reduced price. 

When you fire and see those plastic chunks fly above the scope, you know there is trouble.


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11650835

This doesn't actually relate to this thread but I thought I'd post it anyway.
This was a local event.
Good guy 1,bad guys 0.
I even liked the statement by the State Trooper.

I'm reading more and more of these home evasions.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm reading more and more of these home evasions


.

I think they will become far more common as the economy keeps declining


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## Catshooter (May 11, 2009)

swamp man said:


> No, not when it's presented in a patronizing, "know it all" sort of way, it aint.
> 
> ...and as has been pointed out already, the posted increases weren't in reference to the 9mm.


Swamp man,

Now that I read your post and re-read mine, you're right, it comes across as you describe. *sigh*

I apologise. I tried hard _not_ to sound that way, but I can see that my poor use of the written word screwed it up.


Cat


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## klickitat (Dec 26, 2008)

The 9mm in experienced hands is absolutely deadly out to 100 yrds. in a pistol. I know a "contractor" who calls his Glock 17 his pocket sniper. I have personally seen him take 1 gallon jugs at that distance over and over again.

As for energy; with modern bullets and powders you are fine out to 100 yrds. I killed my first elk with my CZ75 at 80 yrds (I have a witness). I was shooting 115 grain HST +P rounds. I punch the cow clipping a rib on the way in passing through her liver and all the way through, then clipping a rib on the way out and lodging behind the scapula on the far side. The cow elk only went 30 yards before she bled out and died. 

Ball ammo in a 9mm is worthless and has been proven time and again. If you are going to use the 9mm; buy premium hollow point ammo and become proficient with your weapon.

With all that said; I am not going to trust my life to my CZ75. A pistol is only for getting you back to your rifle. I have an FN FAL in .308 for my main rifle.


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## countrymech (Nov 28, 2005)

In experienced hands a .22 rifle was used to kill the largest polar bear on record with a well placed shot. Any pistol at 100 yards is delaying the inevitable. Pistols are best suited 30 yards and below. If you want a catch all for 0 to 100 yards, buy a shotgun. Buy what you can shoot and be proficient with it. If it holds twice as many rounds, it will take twice as many rounds to accomplish the mission. My personal pick is a .357 magnum revolver, which incidentally also has an interchanchable cylinder for 9mm and also chamber .38's as well without swapping cylinders. My semi is a .45. No matter where you hit the target, it will go down.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> No matter where you hit the target, it will go down.


You may want to rethink that one


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You may want to rethink that one


How far did your eyes roll when you read that? Mine were past the eyebrows.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I guess some guys just love the crap out of their .45's.........sorta like the Ford 8n tractors........can use them for every thing.
Just kidding boys.........you like what you like.


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## countrymech (Nov 28, 2005)

How did you guess that I have an old '8N tractor? :bow: Having been a Marine in a previous life, I have little use for a 9mm. Shot plenty of them and wouldn't bet my life on any of them. Just an opinion.


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## klickitat (Dec 26, 2008)

The problem with most (not all) people who shoot larger calibers, is that they can not control them for fast and accurate shots. :viking:

Case in point: I just went to my very first handgun competition yesterday. It was a bowling pin match. Now everyone there besides my buddy Mike and myself have been doing this type of shooting for years. There were even two "Grand Masters" competing. Guess what caliber won. Yep you guessed it. A 9mm in the hands of a first time novice; ME! The most common caliber there was the .45 and .40 in 1911 frames.

It's not who shoots first; it's who shoot accurately first.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Michael Kawalek said:


> Chronographing my own loads is on hold right now because of the hole I put in mine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ALRIGHT-nice shot.....if I had a dig camera,I would show you my Chrony-same place but with a 300grLFN from Ruger.45....


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