# Fear Grows



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ARCADIA (CBSLA) – Gun sales are skyrocketing across the San Gabriel Valley as Asian Americans in the area fear they may be targeted because of their ethnicity amid rising fears about the spread of the coronavirus.

David Liu, the owner of Arcadia Firearm & Safety, said his store has been very busy in recent weeks. Liu said he’s seen as many as 10 times more customers than usual come through the doors of his business.

“Because of coronavirus, a lot of people start to worry,” he said.

The area has a high concentration of Asian Americans, and Liu said many of his customers are afraid they may be targeted because of their ethnicity if a local outbreak of coronavirus occurs.

“I do worry,” said Daniel Lim, who recently bought a gun for his wife at Arcadia Firearm & Safety.

Lim said he wants his family to be able to defend themselves, and he fears coronavirus may spark a financial crisis that leads to social disorder.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/202...ericans-who-fear-coronavirus-related-attacks/


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

Our world is so screwed up.

But it is refreshing to see that the gun remains the solver of all in America.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Witch's Broom said:


> Our world is so screwed up.
> 
> But it is refreshing to see that the gun remains the solver of all in America.


Being able to defend one's self is very important to us.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I agree. It is very funny how some can't see that.


The bad guys tend to avoid places like your home and my home, so I would disagree.
They seek out those who pose no challenge to them and who fear guns as a means of defense even more so than the ones who mean them harm.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> The bad guys tend to avoid places like your home and my home, so I would disagree.
> They seek out those who pose no challenge to them and who fear guns as a means of defense even more so than the ones who mean them harm.


That is why I love this sign


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Every morning as I go outside I am carrying a folding knife and a small caliber 1911 on my belt. I've done it so long I hardly notice they are there; but I know from many, many people who carry firearms over the years this thing- they tend to avoid conflict, and when conflict is present, they tend to remove themselves rather than escalate.
The power to take a life doesn't weigh lightly with them.
Yet there are those who seem to believe carrying a firearm is a gateway to soon brandishing and waving it around and intimidating people or expressing bravado. They believe a legal gun owner carries a secret desire to kill someone.

Folks who scoff, belittle, mock and become snarky over your choice to defend yourself, as these Asians are doing reveal quite a bit about their own phobia and fears more than anything.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I agree. It is very funny how some can't see that.


And yet Asian Canadians really don't seem too concerned


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> And yet Asian Canadians really don't seem too concerned


How do you know?

Could they buy a gun if they needed it?


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

HDRider said:


> How do you know?
> 
> Could they buy a gun if they needed it?


They sure can if they have the credentials.

I laugh at what seems like a misconception that Canadians are unarmed or cannot possess.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Witch's Broom said:


> They sure can if they have the credentials.
> 
> I laugh at what seems like a misconception that Canadians are unarmed or cannot possess.


What are the "credentials"?

What point are you trying to make if access to guns in Canada is as free as it is in the US?


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

HDRider said:


> What are the "credentials"?


Proper licensing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Witch's Broom said:


> Proper licensing.


What does it take to get a license? Can anyone, except felons get one?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A highly original method of preventing criminals or those who wish to be one from doing so.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

HDRider said:


> What does it take to get a license? Can anyone, except felons get one?


Anyone? Your point being?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Witch's Broom said:


> Anyone? Your point being?


I am trying to understand how easy it is to get a gun in Canada compared to the US.

You seem to imply it is as easy there as it is here.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Any one can get a gun anywhere in the world.
All it takes is money.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

HDRider said:


> I am trying to understand how easy it is to get a gun in Canada compared to the US.
> 
> You seem to imply it is as easy there as it is here.


Those interested require to enroll in a certified firearms course, pass all applicable testing, and are issued a licence related to the official course they enrolled in.

Here in Canada there are two forms of licensing, one that authorizes the licence holder to buy and use a long-gun, and another that authorizes the licence holder to buy and use pistols, or as they are referred to in our country, restricted firearms.

As to the second part of your question, I implied nothing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Any one can get a gun anywhere in the world.
> All it takes is money.


I guess that blows the whole idea of gun control


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Witch's Broom said:


> Those interested require to enroll in a certified firearms course, pass all applicable testing, and are issued a licence related to the official course they enrolled in.
> 
> Here in Canada there are two forms of licensing, one that authorizes the licence holder to buy and use a long-gun, and another that authorizes the licence holder to buy and use pistols, or as they are referred to in our country, restricted firearms.
> 
> As to the second part of your question, I implied nothing.


I have tried to ask plainly, and you dance around the answer.

Is it as easy to get a a license to buy a pistol there? What cause one, if anything, to fail to get a license, other than the obvious thing like being a felon?

Is a semiautomatic rifle fall into your long gun category? Is it easy to buy a semi auto there?

I get the sense form Canadians that not everyone can get a gun. I am just trying to understand.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> Any one can get a gun anywhere in the world.
> All it takes is money.


Absolutely true. Gun laws do nothing except to disarm the law abiding.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The VIX


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

HDRider said:


> I have tried to ask plainly, and you dance around the answer.
> 
> Is it as easy to get a a license to buy a pistol there? What cause one, if anything, to fail to get a license, other than the obvious thing like being a felon?
> 
> ...


I'm not arbitrarily attempting to dance around your questions, HD.

Being certified to own and purchase long-guns is a shade easier than being certified to own and purchase restricted firearms in Canada, however, at the end of the day, so long as one is willing to enroll in the course that pertains to each, anyone (aside from those with records, mental issues, etc) can obtain licensing.

As for semi auto long-guns, there are provisions to have and use such, but I am not aware of where the point of cut-off would be related to.

My husband is a restricted licence holder and shoots regularly (both handguns and long-guns).


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Witch's Broom said:


> My guess is, the homeowner sporting this sign in their yard has another sign on the opposite side of their walkway that reads, "_you can't play in my sandbox_".


So, because we have the right to defend ourselves you find a reason to mock us?
Even Canadian liberals like to spread hate _eh_?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

keenataz said:


> And yet Asian Canadians really don't seem too concerned


maybe Canadian politicians aren't pushing a panic for the sake of economic collapse?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Absolutely true. Gun laws do nothing except to disarm the law abiding.


How do you know they're law abiding?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> How do you know they're law abiding?


Because they follow the law.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

SRSLADE said:


> How do you know they're law abiding?


Because that's who the laws apply to?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> maybe Canadian politicians aren't pushing a panic for the sake of economic collapse?


What panic to collapse the economy.
That's about as fringe as any conspiracy I've heard.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> Because that's who the laws apply to?


Laws apply to every one if they chose to abide by those laws or not.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Witch's Broom said:


> My guess is, the homeowner sporting this sign in their yard has another sign on the opposite side of their walkway that reads, "_you can't play in my sandbox_".


What’s the matter with that ? I assume everyone can have a sand box. No need to use mine.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

keenataz said:


> And yet Asian Canadians really don't seem too concerned


https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZR2YZ



Might be more concerned than you think


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

SRSLADE said:


> Laws apply to every one if they chose to abide by those laws or not.


Even you can't believe criminals follow laws?
Laws are written to control those who are law abiding.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Witch's Broom said:


> Yes, it does seem as though boogieman and zombies are rampant in your parts.


If they were, we'd be prepared to handle them.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

SRSLADE said:


> What panic to collapse the economy.
> That's about as fringe as any conspiracy I've heard.


Are you watching how any word of the virus affects the stock market?
Are you watching to see the Democrats gleefully blaming Trump?
The democrats want to collapse the economy, it's they only way to get rid of Trump, but even that might not work.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> And yet Asian Canadians really don't seem too concerned


Have you asked any of them?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Witch's Broom said:


> Proper licensing.


People here also have to meet qualifications.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You mean criminals won't obey those laws????


I'm flumoxed but I expect the beano to begin working anytime.

Since "proper licensing" seems to have rung the bell for the candy word of the day, in lieu of these Asians in the OP buying firearms for their protection, how would a criminal, either in Canada or the US, purchase a firearm without the "proper licensing"?
What would be the ideal purpose of "proper licensing"? To dissuade them from pursuing their unlawful plans?
In other words, would it be better explained as restricting the freedoms of the good in order to restrict the means of the bad?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> In other words, would it be better explained as restricting the freedoms of the good in order to restrict the means of the bad?


That sounds like a pretty accurate assessment.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is a broad statement-
People who tend to project gun owners as lacking self control may be the individuals who least possess the capabilities to handle a high stress situation in which they had custody of a firearm. They use their own fears, angers and uncertainties as the emotional makeup of everyone else, and it frightens them.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I think to tell if someone is good we need to check their books.
This way we can tell if good means they got away with it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Your needs aren't my needs.
Your good isn't my good.
Different hog, different fat.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Here is a broad statement-
> People who tend to project gun owners as lacking self control may be the individuals who least possess the capabilities to handle a high stress situation in which they had custody of a firearm. They use their own fears, angers and uncertainties as the emotional makeup of everyone else, and it frightens them.


That's possible but based on bragging, the gun owners seem to do a lot of crowing.
Is that a sign of needing to scare off any challenge to their insecure standing.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Mostly bubble not so much gum.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Witch's Broom said:


> Those interested require to enroll in a certified firearms course, pass all applicable testing, and are issued a licence related to the official course they enrolled in.
> 
> Here in Canada there are two forms of licensing, one that authorizes the licence holder to buy and use a long-gun, and another that authorizes the licence holder to buy and use pistols, or as they are referred to in our country, restricted firearms.
> 
> As to the second part of your question, I implied nothing.


You are misinformed. All long guns are not simply PAL purchases and restricted firearms extends beyond handguns.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> That's possible but based on bragging the gun owners seem to do a lot of crowing.
> Is that a sign of needing to scare off any challenge to their insecure standing.


What gun owners are you speaking of?
The Asians?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Here is a broad statement-
> People who tend to project gun owners as lacking self control may be the individuals who least possess the capabilities to handle a high stress situation in which they had custody of a firearm. They use their own fears, angers and uncertainties as the emotional makeup of everyone else, and it frightens them.


People do tend to project themselves on others


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wr said:


> You are misinformed. All long guns are not simply PAL purchases and restricted firearms extends beyond handguns.


Ya'll are speaking Canadian


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I had a business associate recently send me a list of Illinois, both Chicago and downstate, anti 2nd amendment alderman, politicians and activists who have been busted for carrying without a permit, unlawful use, brandishing, etc.
It is a long list and it only goes back a few years.
People trying to push severe gun control laws while acting out with anger and little self control or respect for the laws they pass.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> How do you know?
> 
> Could they buy a gun if they needed it?


Yes they could get a gun. I have 3 co workers of Asian descent in the office I work in. They seem quite calm. None of my business if they have guuns or not


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I am trying to understand how easy it is to get a gun in Canada compared to the US.
> 
> You seem to imply it is as easy there as it is here.


If I wanted to, I could drive 2 kilometres and but a gun right now


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I have tried to ask plainly, and you dance around the answer.
> 
> Is it as easy to get a a license to buy a pistol there? What cause one, if anything, to fail to get a license, other than the obvious thing like being a felon?
> 
> ...


Nope we can't and most of us are fine about that.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> Yes they could get a gun. I have 3 co workers of Asian descent in the office I work in. They seem quite calm. None of my business if they have guuns or not


I am under some major misconceptions regarding guns in Canada. They way you Canucks had portrayed your little piece of paradise it sounds like no one had a gun, wanted a gun or knew how to spell gun.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Ya'll are speaking Canadian


Wait til she starts talking about "timbits" and "double doubles"


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

At least 1,000 students at the University of Dayton broke out in a riot after being told to leave campus over the Wuhan coronavirus outbreak. The crowd became so violent that police wore riot gear when responding to the chaos.

https://www.wbrz.com/news/ohio-riot...ncement-of-temporary-closure-due-to-covid-19/


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> I have tried to ask plainly, and you dance around the answer.
> 
> Is it as easy to get a a license to buy a pistol there? What cause one, if anything, to fail to get a license, other than the obvious thing like being a felon?
> 
> ...


I'll offer some answers to your questions. Things that would cause someone to fail to get a license would generally be things like a conviction of a violent crime but I know people who've worked to get past that an actually own restricted on non restricted firearms. 

If a Canadian wants to get a non restricted firearm, they simply take the PAL (posession & acquisition license), which is a short course on firearms safety and regulations. Without the course, one can't legally purchase a firearm, ammo or take their restricted firearms course. 

Once that's in place, one can walk into a store and purchase a non restricted firearm and ammo and leave the same day. The gun will have a trigger lock in place and you will be walked out the door by a store employee before it's turned over. You must present your PAL before any store employee will allow you to physically handle firearms and it's reviewed again if you purchase. 

Restricted firearms, which would include handguns, certain long guns, semi automatics, etc, do require a restricted firearms license and even when presented, must be verified with a division of the RCMP. I've seen the process done in hours and I've also seen it take up to a week. There is a magical formula on certain restricted firearms that involve barrel length. 

In order to leave the store with a restricted firearm, you must be registered with a legal range and have transport papers in place. You can take your new firearm to the range or home but not many places in between. 

I would suggest that handguns are not overly common in Canada because most people aren't interested in the paperwork required to purchase a restricted firearm but those that do, seldom have much problem with additional purchases. 

Most Canadians feel they have some knowledge of what is and isn't restricted but when a couple of young men from BC went hunting humans a while back, most were surprised to learn that the two SKS they used were legally puchased and not considered restricted. 

I could not purchase a handgun today because my only interest is being able to humanely dispatch livestock and make sure my coner of the world is free from gophers so I don't have my restricted license but there would be nothing stopping me.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Wait til she starts talking about "timbits" and "double doubles"


I had a mental lapse yesterday and had to make a trip to town today, the timbits, double double line was pretty sparse. Nobody was there to pay it backward so I had to buy my own.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> Nobody was there to pay it backward so I had to buy my own.


I feel your pain.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

wr said:


> I had a mental lapse yesterday and had to make a trip to town today, the timbits, double double line was pretty sparse. Nobody was there to pay it backward so I had to buy my own.


That will go over the heads of some of our members.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

keenataz said:


> That will go over the heads of some of our members.


Not all. 

I would like some coffee crisps and chocolate covered jujubes in my emergency stash.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

wr said:


> You are misinformed. All long guns are not simply PAL purchases and restricted firearms extends beyond handguns.


Please lay it out for us, and do let me know where I'm so misinformed.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wr said:


> I'll offer some answers to your questions. Things that would cause someone to fail to get a license would generally be things like a conviction of a violent crime but I know people who've worked to get past that an actually own restricted on non restricted firearms.
> 
> If a Canadian wants to get a non restricted firearm, they simply take the PAL (posession & acquisition license), which is a short course on firearms safety and regulations. Without the course, one can't legally purchase a firearm, ammo or take their restricted firearms course.
> 
> ...


Thank you

It appears about 10% of Canadians own an AR 15, where less than 3% of Americans do, yet we have a loud minority calling for their ban here, and I do not hear the same call in Canada. The link on Canadian ownership says they are harder to get in Canada than in the US.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/13/own...nder-renewed-fire-after-orlando-massacre.html

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/getti...-much-harder-in-canada-than-the-u-s-1.2945990


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

wr said:


> I would suggest that handguns are not overly common in Canada


I respectfully disagree with your suggestion, _handguns are not overly common in Canada_.

My husband, aside from being a range shooter, is involved with IPSC, and says the number of fellow Canadian IPSC and everyday range shooters (handgun category) is staggering, and steadily growing all the time.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Every morning as I go outside I am carrying a folding knife and a small caliber 1911 on my belt. I've done it so long I hardly notice they are there; but I know from many, many people who carry firearms over the years this thing- they tend to avoid conflict, and when conflict is present, they tend to remove themselves rather than escalate.
> The power to take a life doesn't weigh lightly with them.
> Yet there are those who seem to believe carrying a firearm is a gateway to soon brandishing and waving it around and intimidating people or expressing bravado. They believe a legal gun owner carries a secret desire to kill someone.
> 
> ...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Witch's Broom said:


> My husband, aside from being a range shooter, is involved with IPSC, and says the number of fellow Canadian IPSC and everyday range shooters (handgun category) is staggering, and steadily growing all the time.


That's still just a tiny percentage of gun owners, much less the entire population.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

wr said:


> I'll offer some answers to your questions. Things that would cause someone to fail to get a license would generally be things like a conviction of a violent crime but I know people who've worked to get past that an actually own restricted on non restricted firearms.
> 
> If a Canadian wants to get a non restricted firearm, they simply take the PAL (posession & acquisition license), which is a short course on firearms safety and regulations. Without the course, one can't legally purchase a firearm, ammo or take their restricted firearms course.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to provide this.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Witch's Broom said:


> I respectfully disagree with your suggestion, _handguns are not overly common in Canada_.
> 
> My husband, aside from being a range shooter, is involved with IPSC, and says the number of fellow Canadian IPSC and everyday range shooters (handgun category) is staggering, and steadily growing all the time.



Ownership is solid but because they are restricted, they aren’t carried or transported like they are in the US. 

The law clearly states that our restricted firearms are restricted by way of ownership and locations they can be used, transport and they’re quite a bit more expensive than purchased in the US.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Thank you
> 
> It appears about 10% of Canadians own an AR 15, where less than 3% of Americans do, yet we have a loud minority calling for their ban here, and I do not hear the same call in Canada. The link on Canadian ownership says they are harder to get in Canada than in the US.
> 
> ...


They're harder to get in Canada because they're a restricted firearm but they're also quite costly to purchase, ammo is fairly expensive and while I grew up with a reloading room, that seems to be a whole subculture but not the norm. 

I suspect that your estate would have few problems distributing your firearms but ours can be complicated.

My father is failing and his firearms are locked in his safe, as required by law. I have a fairly good idea of his inventory but without actually verifying contents, which will set my mother off, plans need to be made for a couple of handguns I believe he still owns. 

He was always an artist in need of an outlet so his rifles all have hand carved stocks and engraving and the last time I saw the handguns, they had very intricate engraving. Certainly not something one wants to turn over to the RCMP for destruction.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

wr said:


> Ownership is solid but because they are restricted, they aren’t carried or transported like they are in the US.
> 
> The law clearly states that our restricted firearms are restricted by way of ownership and locations they can be used, transport and they’re quite a bit more expensive than purchased in the US.


I am aware of all the above.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

wr said:


> They're harder to get in Canada because they're a restricted firearm but they're also quite costly to purchase, ammo is fairly expensive and while *I grew up with a reloading room,* *that seems to be a whole subculture but not the norm*.


I can tell you it is the norm, at least around our neck of the woods it is. Reloading among long-gun (big game) hunters is huge. My dad did it, my husband does it, immediate and extended family does it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Reloading was a norm at our home as well. No special room. Kitchen table and all hands on deck from cleaning brass to measuring powder.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Reloading was a norm at our home as well. No special room. Kitchen table and all hands on deck from cleaning brass to measuring powder.


Yes. Remember the scale? I remember it came down to grains when my dad did it, and when he loaded them extra, he would refer to them as "hot loads".


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Thank you
> 
> It appears about 10% of Canadians own an AR 15, where less than 3% of Americans do, yet we have a loud minority calling for their ban here, and I do not hear the same call in Canada. The link on Canadian ownership says they are harder to get in Canada than in the US.
> 
> ...


Your math is off. There are 38 million Canadians and they collectively own about 3800 AR-15s. That is .01%. So not very many at all. According to your second link, Canadians own about 1 million guns, which if no one owned more than one gun, would put gun ownership around 2.6% of the population. I think most gun owners would own more than one, but I would hesitate to guess at an average number per owner. 

As others have noted, getting a rifle or shotgun to hunt isn't particularly difficult. Getting access to restricted weapons is more of a task. This is going back a few years, but I remember filling our a character reference for a family friend who was becoming a guard with Corrections Canada. At that time, the application included reference checks and I think (but am not 100% sure) that the references had to come from social workers, clergy, police officers, elected officials etc. a list of approved vocations. They basically asked about temperment, and whether we had any knowledge of domestic violence or other "red flag" issues regarding the applicant.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Witch's Broom said:


> I respectfully disagree with your suggestion, _handguns are not overly common in Canada_.
> 
> My husband, aside from being a range shooter, is involved with IPSC, and says the number of fellow Canadian IPSC and everyday range shooters (handgun category) is staggering, and steadily growing all the time.


That’s really a moot point. Canadian gun ownership entered the conversation with these two posts:


keenataz said:


> And yet Asian Canadians really don't seem too concerned





Witch's Broom said:


> They sure can if they have the credentials.
> 
> I laugh at what seems like a misconception that Canadians are unarmed or cannot possess.


The topic was about an increase in Americans purchasing firearms for self-defense. How many guns are owned by Canadians, and how they go about buying them is not related to their not experiencing an uptick in gun sales for self-defense.

In all but the very, very, VERY rare case, is purchasing a firearm for self-defense allowed in Canada. Without an ATC, which the crown grants to almost no one, “personal defense” is not a valid reason to give on a Canadian license application- and it WILL be rejected if that reason is given.

The ATC is so rare that it’s nationwide issuance is normally in the single digits. The RCMP reported only one (yes, one person. One less than two, if you’re counting) in 2019. All the rest of the peasants must provide sporting reasons for their ownership.

So, even if your husband is a IPSC Grand-Master, he still better not have that pistol loaded or even unlocked at home. He can, conceivably, use it to defend you in your peasant home, but he’d better only start the process of unsecuring and loading it AFTER the invader has brought an equally deadly threat to bear.

And, if he somehow manages to get the gun out of his safe, and load it, before the invader can pull his own gun’s trigger, and successfully defends you against the bad guy, the crown WILL charge him with a crime. It cannot be waved off by law enforcement as a “justified self-defense”. The peasant WILL be forced to defend themself against the charges in court.

So rationalizing gun ownership permissions in Canada really has nothing to do with Americans buying guns for self-defense. Subjects aren’t allowed to do that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Witch's Broom said:


> I can tell you it is the norm, at least around our neck of the woods it is. Reloading among long-gun (big game) hunters is huge. My dad did it, my husband does it, immediate and extended family does it.


If you happen to tour through Cabella's or one of the range/gun shops, you'll notice brisk business at the ammo counter which strongly suggest that my statement is not incorrect. 

I have a friend who likes going to the range mid to later day so he can collect the brass that others have left behind and his collection also seems to substantiate my opinion.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The Paw said:


> Your math is off. There are 38 million Canadians and they collectively own about 3800 AR-15s. That is .01%. So not very many at all. According to your second link, Canadians own about 1 million guns, which if no one owned more than one gun, would put gun ownership around 2.6% of the population. I think most gun owners would own more than one, but I would hesitate to guess at an average number per owner.
> 
> As others have noted, getting a rifle or shotgun to hunt isn't particularly difficult. Getting access to restricted weapons is more of a task. This is going back a few years, but I remember filling our a character reference for a family friend who was becoming a guard with Corrections Canada. At that time, the application included reference checks and I think (but am not 100% sure) that the references had to come from social workers, clergy, police officers, elected officials etc. a list of approved vocations. They basically asked about temperment, and whether we had any knowledge of domestic violence or other "red flag" issues regarding the applicant.


Sorry, not sure why I used 3.8 million ARs. It did not make sense to me either. Thanks for correcting that and the further elaboration. It fits more with what I expected, but I was having a hard time getting info on the Canadian purchase process.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

According to the RCMP, there were actually two ATC permits in all of Canada in 2018. That means the one still remaining in 2019 is a 50% reduction from 2018. 

The crown giveth. The crown taketh away. 


https://thegunblog.ca/2018/11/08/two-canadians-have-authorization-to-carry-guns-filing-shows/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> According to the RCMP, there were actually two ATC permits in all of Canada in 2018. That means the one still remaining in 2019 is a 50% reduction from 2018.
> 
> The crown giveth. The crown taketh away.
> 
> ...


I thought witchy woman was making it all sound too easy.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Do you understand that there are two different ATC permits in Canada? You are talking about the ATC to protect life authorization. There are many more that have the ATC for their occupation.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I thought witchy woman was making it all sound too easy.


Owning a gun in Canada isn’t that difficult. It’s actually even easier than in some of our states. 

But, in their culture, guns are not held as a check against the crown, or even for self-defense. Gun ownership is only _allowed_ for sport and sustenance and protection against four-legged threats in the deep wild. 

Canadian sensibilities about self-defense have really nothing in common with American ones. There is no such thing as an “armed” Canadian (subject).


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Owning a gun in Canada isn’t that difficult. It’s actually even easier than in some of our states.
> 
> But, in their culture, guns are not held as a check against the crown, or even for self-defense. Gun ownership is only _allowed_ for sport and sustenance and protection against four-legged threats in the deep wild.
> 
> Canadian sensibilities about self-defense have really nothing in common with American ones. There is no such thing as an “armed” Canadian (subject).


I was talking more specifically about an AR


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Do you understand that there are two different ATC permits in Canada? You are talking about the ATC to protect life authorization. There are many more that have the ATC for their occupation.


Yes. I do realize there are multiple reasons. The one specified is for people (sorry, _person_) to protect themselves, or “Protection of Life” allowance in their 98 Firearms Act. This is the allowance we’d liken to a CCW here in the US. 

An ATC can also be issued to a subject for use in their work (money carrying, trapping etc), but they’d better not be carrying that weapon when they’re not engaged in that specific work. 

Come into the cabin after a long day on the trap line, her majesty demands that you unload that rifle and secure it before you even think about sitting down to a bowl of stew. Money carriers better unload and secure their weapons before they return to their POV at the end of the day- so no, nothing like a “carry permit”.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I was talking more specifically about an AR


Oh. Still, an AR is easier to own in Canada than in some US states. 

Many sportsmen prefer the non-AR AR stuff, like SCARs, ACR, MCXs etc, because, not being a standard issue mil platform, their club use is not quite as restrictive. 

And they don’t have an SBR restriction like you and I, so there’s no $200 tax-stamp and 10 month wait for them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Oh. Still, an AR is easier to own in Canada than in some US states.
> 
> Many sportsmen prefer the non-AR AR stuff, like SCARs, ACR, MCXs etc, because, not being a standard issue mil platform, their club use is not quite as restrictive.
> 
> And they don’t have an SBR restriction like you and I, so there’s no $200 tax-stamp and 10 month wait for them.


Thanks Monkey.

I am a little confused. Here you say it is easier there than in some states, but I got the impression from your earlier post it was quite rare for them to get an AR permit. 

I know we have went far afield from my original topic, but that is OK. I have become curious to compare here and there. It must be hard to get an AR there if they only have 3,800 of them.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

In both the US and Canada a bad guy can still buy a gun on the black market and both face legal trouble if they are caught.

Legal Canadian gun owners are on a government list. The Canadian government knows who owns guns, how many, and what they are. When the time comes for confiscation the RCMP can get all the legally owned guns.

In most places in the US you can legally buy a gun without a background check from a private individual if you meet face to face, neither is a Federal Firearms License (FFL) holder, and both live in the same state. All other firearms sales must have a background check run on the purchaser by an FFL holder. The background check does not list the type of gun, just the purchaser. The government is not informed whether the individual actually bought a gun nor how many guns were purchased. The government is not supposed to keep a record of who applies for a background check. (The tooth fairy is real.) The FFL holder is supposed to keep a hard copy of the background check for 20 years. I hope that when confiscation happens most of the forms are destroyed in a flood.

The point is that when the government confiscates the guns the Canadians will be get all the legally owned guns while the US government won't even come close.

As for the OP, I am all in favor of everyone's ability to defend themselves. I have not seen any evidence of anyone blaming people of oriental extraction for corona virus but there are always a few nuts that think in that illogical way.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

With all the information given freely can we now determine who has guns and who doesn't?
Does the world also know how many and what caliber?
Why do we feel compelled to tell everyone our personal business?
Do we cast around gun facts and figures because we feel more secure thinking the neighbors are reading our post?
Should Canada be afraid it may not have enough guns?
Do I stand to profit if Canada buys more guns?


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Owning a gun in Canada isn’t that difficult. It’s actually even easier than in some of our states.
> 
> But, in their culture, guns are not held as a check against the crown, or even for self-defense. Gun ownership is only _allowed_ for sport and sustenance and protection against four-legged threats in the deep wild.
> 
> Canadian sensibilities about self-defense have really nothing in common with American ones. There is no such thing as an “armed” Canadian (subject).


This is not a comment on your guns laws as Istay away from that. But we don't live in fear of being attacked. Works pretty well.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> With all the information given freely can we now determine who has guns and who doesn't?
> Does the world also know how many and what caliber?
> Why do we feel compelled to tell everyone our personal business?
> Do we cast around gun facts and figures because we feel more secure thinking the neighbors are reading our post?
> ...



I can personally say for me and people I know we are not afraid we do not have enough guns.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

keenataz said:


> This is not a comment on your guns laws as Istay away from that. But we don't live in fear of being attacked. Works pretty well.


I have zero fear of being attacked. Is there a correlation?


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> I have zero fear of being attacked. Is there a correlation?



Why do you carry a gun in your normal day to day life? If you do?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

This thread is regarding fear over a virus.
The point passing thru almost all of the HT corona threads has involved being prepared for the unknown.
Some call it prepping while others refer to it as a part of being self sufficient.
The same can be said about firearms. Being prepared eliminates much of the fear of the unknown.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

keenataz said:


> Why do you carry a gun in your normal day to day life? If you do?


So now I understand a little more of your perspective. You believe because I carry a firearm I must live in fear.
Do you wear a seat belt out of fear?


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> So now I understand a little more of your perspective. You believe because I carry a firearm I must live in fear.
> Do you wear a seat belt out of fear?



To me it is common sense because there is a possibility I could be in an accident. I can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

It's the law you wear a set belt.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Do you happen to know the number of people killed each year behind the wheel of a car vs being shot dead?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Thanks Monkey.
> 
> I am a little confused. Here you say it is easier there than in some states, but I got the impression from your earlier post it was quite rare for them to get an AR permit.
> 
> I know we have went far afield from my original topic, but that is OK. I have become curious to compare here and there. It must be hard to get an AR there if they only have 3,800 of them.


Sorry. No. The rare permit I was talking about was the one to be able to have your gun loaded anywhere other than at the range or while actively hunting. 

The license to be able to own an AR is not too difficult, or rare to secure. Guns that are “ARish”, but aren’t actually ARs, carry some preference because they can be used for hunting. An actual AR may only be used at a club range specifically approved for shooting them. 

It’s still easier to buy/own one than in California, New York, CT (I think), DC...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> I can personally say for me and people I know *we are not afraid* we do not have enough guns.


Many aren't until something happens to make them realize that's a false sense of security.
Then it's too late to prepare.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

keenataz said:


> This is not a comment on your guns laws as Istay away from that. But we don't live in fear of being attacked. Works pretty well.





keenataz said:


> To me it is common sense because there is a possibility I could be in an accident. I can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun


I don’t live in fear of being attacked any more than you do.

My motivation for wearing the seatbelt is the same as mine, but I find your sentiment about how you “_can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun_” to at least be disingenuous.

Home invasions, deadly assaults, rapes etc all happen in Canada, too.

I recognize the possibility I could be in an accident, and, like you, I wear a seatbelt in response.

Unlike you, I also recognize the possibility I could be assaulted, my home could be invaded, or someone could try to harm my wife. It could happen to either of us, but only one of us recognizes it as a possibility.

I “live in fear” because I aim to protect myself against one of those possibilities, but you’re just exercising “common sense” because you aim to protect yourself against the other? How does that work?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It was just mentioned in another HT thread that this is a teachable moment and that should be a good thing.
It is ok to have a predisposition towards different subject matters; in this case there is a common theme.
Some recognize our predispositions and others don't, and that is ok too.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> This thread is regarding fear over a virus.
> The point passing thru almost all of the HT corona threads has involved being prepared for the unknown.
> Some call it prepping while others refer to it as a part of being self sufficient.
> The same can be said about firearms. Being prepared eliminates much of the fear of the unknown.


This thread is not about fear over a virus. It is about a certain group of Americans buying guns because they fear people who will go after them because they are ethnically similar to many where the virus started.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t live in fear of being attacked any more than you do.
> 
> My motivation for wearing the seatbelt is the same as mine, but I find your sentiment about how you “_can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun_” to at least be disingenuous.
> 
> ...



I was commenting on carrying a weapon during day to dat activities. Have no doubt I have ways to keep my home safe.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

And that is good you have your methods. 
My own observation is that more people feel the need to comment about another person's decision to arm themselves than about those who do not.
You won't hear from me what I may or may not think is the proper one for you, rather that in all facets of life, each of us are prepared as we see fit.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Do you happen to know the number of people killed each year behind the wheel of a car vs being shot dead?


About 30 are killed every day by drunk drivers alone.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I wonder how many expected it when they got out of bed that last morning?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> I wonder how many expected it when they got out of bed that last morning?


None, or they would have stayed at home.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

keenataz said:


> I was commenting on carrying a weapon during day to dat activities. Have no doubt I have ways to keep my home safe.


Ok, but you said you “_can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun”. _Even in the context of “day to day activities” (or especially in that context, as it were) how is it that you honestly can’t foresee the possibility of you being attacked and needing a gun to protect yourself?

This isn’t a question of whether someone lives in the US or Canada any more than car crashes are exclusively American or Canadian. There is a possibility you will be attacked, whether you choose to admit it or not, and there is a chance that the attacker will be able to kill or maim you before one of the Queen’s men is able to get there to save you.

How is it not disingenuous that you “_can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun”?
_
ETA: and, just out of curiosity, are the ways you protect your home (to which I am instructed to have no doubt) legal in Canada?


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Ok, but you said you “_can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where I would need a gun”. _Even in the context of “day to day activities” (or especially in that context, as it were) how is it that you honestly can’t foresee the possibility of you being attacked and needing a gun to protect yourself?
> 
> This isn’t a question of whether someone lives in the US or Canada any more than car crashes are exclusively American or Canadian. There is a possibility you will be attacked, whether you choose to admit it or not, and there is a chance that the attacker will be able to kill or maim you before one of the Queen’s men is able to get there to save you.
> 
> ...


I think your earlier posts, putting this down to a fairly fundamentally different culture, is pretty accurate.

It's not that Canadians can't forsee a situation where violence happens, because it certainly does from time to time. It's more that we recognize that the chances of that kind of violence are actually pretty remote, and that the remedy of walking around armed probably creates (collectively) more probability of violence than it prevents. I don't expect you to agree with that conclusion, but based on the evidence from our respective countries, its a pretty plausible argument.

Culturally, we are more prone to trust our police than to feel we have to defend ourselves against them. And while we get irritated by our government, most of us don't see our relationship with government as adversarial. Our Loyalist background gave us our constitutional catch phrase "peace, order, and good government". It's not as snappy as "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" but it works for us.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

HDRider said:


> I thought witchy woman was making it all sound too easy.


On the contrary.

It's very easy for those who have kept their noses clean to obtain licensing. When I outlined the process to garner a licence it had zero to do with carrying, so witchy woman wasn't making it all sound too easy.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I thought witchy woman was making it all sound too easy.


Why be rude, and call someone something that isn't their name?


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

wr said:


> If you happen to tour through Cabella's or one of the range/gun shops, you'll notice brisk business at the ammo counter which strongly suggest that my statement is not incorrect.
> 
> I have a friend who likes going to the range mid to later day so he can collect the brass that others have left behind and his collection also seems to substantiate my opinion.


I refuse to carry on a tit-for-tat related to this discussion.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't believe it is for me to determine if these Asian Americans have just cause to seek arming themselves. They seem to feel the need to, so as I would if it were a woman, a man or otherwise, leave it to their own judgment, just as others might do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why be rude, and call someone something that isn't their name?


Witch and a pic of a woman was all I remembered. It's close Trixie


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

The Paw said:


> I think your earlier posts, putting this down to a fairly fundamentally different culture, is pretty accurate.
> 
> It's not that Canadians can't forsee a situation where violence happens, because it certainly does from time to time. It's more that we recognize that the chances of that kind of violence are actually pretty remote, and that the remedy of walking around armed probably creates (collectively) more probability of violence than it prevents. I don't expect you to agree with that conclusion, but based on the evidence from our respective countries, its a pretty plausible argument.
> 
> Culturally, we are more prone to trust our police than to feel we have to defend ourselves against them. And while we get irritated by our government, most of us don't see our relationship with government as adversarial. Our Loyalist background gave us our constitutional catch phrase "peace, order, and good government". It's not as snappy as "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" but it works for us.


I don’t disagree with your conclusion at all. I think we’re saying mostly the same thing, but, maybe, disagreeing on the whys and hows.

Had @keenataz said that he thought that the odds of a violent attack, that he needed to wield deadly force to defend himself from, were so low that he couldn’t rationalize the need to carry a gun, then I wouldn’t have questioned his statement at all- just as I wouldn’t question the decision of an American who can carry but chooses not to. I questioned the honesty of his statement because he said he “_can't forsee a circumstance where there is a possibility where (_he_) would need a gun”. _Sure, the odds are thankfully slim, but they’re not unimaginable, by any honest person’s standard. Saying otherwise is, well, disingenuous.


That is where the logic directly analogs to wearing a seatbelt. There are a lot of different things that can happen to you when you drive a car. By far, the most likely is that you get where you’re going. A list of descendingly likely outcomes includes getting a flat tire, blowing your engine up, and getting in a crash in which a seatbelt could save your life.

The odds of needing the seatbelt are small, but so is the price of wearing it. Therefore, you buckle up- and probably don’t think much about it.

Likewise, carrying a pistol comes at very little practical cost. In fact, it has becomes so ubiquitous to me that, if I don’t have one, I feel similarly “naked” as I do when riding in a car without a seatbelt- the lap belts in my old Mustang feel downright unnatural.

Neither of us wear a seatbelt out of a fear of the likelihood of needing it. We wear it because the dire outcome of the unlikely event of needing it and not wearing it.

I think the departure comes in how you asses the cost of carrying a weapon. You default to thinking that carrying weapons (collectively) increases the chances of something bad happening, but I don’t recognize that correlation any more than I do the possibility of eliminating seat belts for the risk of the sense of security they provide, causing others to drive more recklessly.

Even if that were the case, I would still “click-it/pack-it” simply because I don’t live for the collective. I live for me... and damned be the government that tries to make me live otherwise.

That’s the real “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. It’s not just a catchy phrase. It’s who we are.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nimrod said:


> As for the OP, I am all in favor of everyone's ability to defend themselves. I have not seen any evidence of anyone blaming people of oriental extraction for corona virus but there are always a few nuts that think in that illogical way.


Here ya go;
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/4/2...sm-social-media-east-asian-chinese-xenophobia


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Witch's Broom said:


> I refuse to carry on a tit-for-tat related to this discussion.


I woud consider firsthand observations or another opinion a discussion.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Some things are better to have and not need than to need and not have. There are hundreds of examples of armed citizens stopping criminals in the US. Pepper spray and tasers just don't have the stopping power of a properly placed chunk of lead.
"When seconds count, police are only minutes away"
I am very thankful that I am not required to retreat before some nut job who would wish to harm me or mine. I simply can't run fast enough.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Here ya go;
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/4/2...sm-social-media-east-asian-chinese-xenophobia


Two things on your link. 

Some of the things called racists are not.
Publishers want eyeballs so they draw people in with controversy.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

First you said you hadn't seen any examples, then you say that you don't consider some of the comments racist. Whatever. 

I hope the new owners take the time to learn how to use their self defence devices before they have to use them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Why be rude*, and call someone something that isn't their name?


Good question.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> First you said you hadn't seen any examples, then you say that you don't consider some of the comments racist. Whatever.
> 
> I hope the new owners take the time to learn how to use their self defense devices before they have to use them.


I just don't believe everything I read. Don't get huffy


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