# Weaving Question ....



## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

I'm finding that after I get a few rows in , I am needing to use a Hair Pick and smashing down the weaving to get a denser fabric .... even harder use of the heddle doesnt get it ?? Am I even making any sense ?!!!? Is this normal ?

Not sure if it's just the type of yarn being used that effects this either :shrug:
I have looks like a cotton Warp , maybe butcher string ?? ...and size 10 cotton weft ...... do I need a picture for y'all ??


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## SvenskaFlicka (Nov 2, 2011)

I have actually found with my rigid heddle loom that if my warp is _too_ tight, my weft will slip back up on me. 

It's a fine balance.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

ooohhhhhh ..... like scotch tension on a spinning wheel !!! I'll try an loosen the weft, see what happens !


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

hmmm.....cant figure out how to loosen it ....


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

You did do a sample to see how much the cotton you are using will shrink, didn't you ???

And I ask because once you wet finish any fabric it will have some shrinkage so the fibers will pull together. Depending on the yarn, it may shrink both in the warp and weft, or just the warp.

I just finished a shawl make of 100% cotton and I started with an 8 dent reed and 8 ppi. My warp was 26" wide and 90" long. When I took it off the loom and hemmed the ends it was 24 1/2" wide and 60" long (I did not use the fringe / waste so cut that off). After I washed the shawl twice, once in warm water and once in hot water, I had a finished piece that was 23 1/4" wide and 55" long - so it shrunk 1 1/4" in the width and 5" in the length, just with the washing. Also, even though I wove it at 8 ppi, which is pretty wide, once it was washed in hot water it shrunk enough that the warp and weft pulled together to show off the weave pattern good and I felt like the structure was what I wanted. It did not shrink enough and pull together enough with just the warm water wash, hence the hot water wash. And I did two small samples of this cotton yarn. Neither shrunk as much as the actual finished piece.

And I am curious why you want your fabric packed so dense? What are you trying to make that you want it so tight? I don't really think it matters what kind of yarn you use, but a tighter weave will make a coarser, and less pliable fabric. - think upholstery fabric. A looser weave structure will let the fabric drape more.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

Featherbottoms....I am SO new, never woven before .... put the loom together and am just trying to figure out how to weave ~ hahaaa !!!

How do you make a sample ?!?! ( nope, I didnt do this ! ) 

I wasnt aware of all the shrinkage !! I thought what you were weaving was what ya got ..... so I wanted a more dense fabric ( thinking a simple shoulder bag was ok for a first project ..) 

Im kinda just trying to get a feel for how to weave, what all the lingo means ... 
Goodness sakes I need to read more !!! I was even using a cardboard shuttle I made ....

So, when your weaving, using the heddle to beat down the fell, it's SUPPOSED to be airy loose in the weave ? 

Here is what Im doing .... see the top portion is airy open, and the bottom is after I smooshed it all down ??? So , whe this is done, this part would be good for the _bottom _ of a bag !?


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

A sample is just a woven piece that you make using the same epi, warp and weft, as your finished product. Imagine cutting a section out of your finished piece and that could be your sample. Different people make samples in different ways, and in different sizes. It is recommended that you do a sample of each thing that you weave, and keep good notes. Once you have a record of a particular fiber, and the sample to go by, you will not necessarily need to sample that same fiber again, unless you weave it in a whole different way (I don't think just changing dent and ppi sizes will make a lot of difference unless you go from like a 24 dent reed to a 12 or 8 and change your ppi accordingly). Some people that have floor looms will use a rigid heddle loom to make their samples. Others add a bit to their warp and weave it at the beginning, cut it off, and then wet finish (I don't do that). For my momma's shawl, I made two samples about bookmark size and used a rough nailed loom that looks a bit like a potholder loom. One I wove loose, the other a bit tighter, because I wanted to see how I should weave the actual shawl. One of the reasons a lot of people do not do samples, and I don't do them all the time, is that you have to buy extra yarn. I tend to buy natural fiber yarns and they are kind of expensive. I have a hard time buying an extra skein of both warp and weft for a sample so most of the time I take my chances without a sample. I very seldom ever have enough yarn left that I could have made a sample even if I'd wanted. And so far, I've been lucky and my finished projects haven't shrunk enough to cause a problem. I'm sure that will change sometime.

As for the shrinkage, some fibers that you think will shrink a lot won't and others will shrink more than you expect. The only way to know is by sampling. For example: I wanted to make a long piece of fabric using Lion Brand Fisherman's Wool yarn. I have almost 2,000 yards of the stuff in various colors. On the package it says it is 100% wool, and it is from China. I figured that since it was 100% wool it would shrink a lot so I made a small sample, about 10" long and 6" wide., and used all the colors that I had so I would get a sample of each yarn. I also wove it rather loosely, expecting it to pull together and "full" a bit when washed. I didn't have a washer at the time but I washed it in hot water and rubbed it together to try to make it full, and I did this two times. I was really surprised to see that the sample didn't shrink much at all. I talked to my weaving instructor about it and all we could come up with is the way that the yarn is processed does something to it to keep it from shrinking and fulling like other wools. So unless I make a much larger sample, and use the washer instead of doing it by hand, and it fulls like I want, this particular yarn isn't going to work for the project that I had in mind and I don't really know now if I even want to use it for anything.

And it isn't just the wet finishing that will cause shrinkage. When you plan a project, you should allow 10% for draw in on the sides and about the same for shrinkage on the warp. I have heard that the weft will not shrink but I know that's not true with some yarns. So, if you want something to end up being 20" wide then you have to start with about 22". You may notice your weaving is a bit narrower as you go along and that's the draw in. If you are drawing in too much you can sometimes correct it and get back a bit of what you've lost.

You probably do want a really dense fabric for a bag and what you have woven so far looks like it will work, but keep in mind that it's probably going to be really stiff to work with when you are trying to sew it together. The way it looks right now, I'd think you are going to have something about the texture of a small throw rug, which should be ok for a bag since you don't want things falling out. You could weave it a little looser if you plan to line it with cloth.

I have read that us new weavers tend to beat things too hard and pull in to much so we have a coarser fabric with a lot of draw in. I notice that I do both. It has taken me almost a year to be able to weave something with a little looser structure (I still pack too tight sometimes), and I still have trouble with the draw in.

And there's nothing wrong with a cardboard shuttle. It should work fine. I have two or three that are homemade out of a yard stick. Someone cut them off about 14" long and then rounded out a bit on each end for the yarn to fit. They were also sanded and varnished. They work great.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Actually, that "open airy" fabric looks about perfect to me. 

Generally, with a balanced weave, you want to see little 'squares' between the threads. They will disappear with wet finishing, trust me!

Beating is really the wrong word for what you want to do: you are placing the weft. If you wanted a super hefty fabric for a bag, you might make a weft-faced weave, by threading the loom wider than normal and your warp threads will just about disappear. But really, I think you should just weave this as you have it on the top there, and then wash it in hot and rinse on cold, and you will be amazed. Measure it first, then after. Take pictures. Come show us. 

It's not supposed to require hard physical bashing - just pull the heddle forward, pat the yarn in place, and carry on. That looks really nicely balanced just the way it is!


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

Why thank you Ladies !!! SO much to learn , but SO much fun ! 

Trying to get this Lingo .... same as when ya start any new craft ! 

My cardboard shuttle bent all up on me ... was good awhile it lasted ! 

My next project will be a scarf ..... but I will finish this first , and take notes/ pictures !! 


You guys are so helpful , thank you for taking the time to help a newbie !


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

MizMary, what's the brown part at the very bottom of the picture?

That looks like a weft faced weave to me: did you have a thinner thread there? Because that kind of fabric is very sturdy and stiff and might be what you want for the bottom of your bag.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Getting to this thread late. I did the same thing on my first rigid heddle weaving. I beat very tight. It made a very dense cloth. Other people told me to "place" the weft rather than beating it so tight. That made the cloth softer. Cotton will shrink about 15 percent and usually can be finished with a trip through the washing machine and dryer. Looking at the brown stripe I see you are getting excellent warp coverage, almost like tapestry. Which is okay if that is what you were trying for. So far so good! 
Have a good day!


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

When I bought the loom from MullersLaneFarms, it was already warped with a bit of weaving on it, and I was able to save it after shipping ! The brown is my first attempt at weaving ever , it's a cotton size 10 ....

Just gonna keep going , to learn ...like I need to work on my selvages !

Today I get to play with my new shuttles .... :sing: and will be advancing the warp my first time ..........

Here it is so far ... I started at the brown ....


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

See how you have that hourglass shape forming, most noticeable with the sky blue color? That's your draw in. It means you are not leaving enough weft yarn so when you pull the beater (heddle) down it is drawing in from the sides. I found this page that has a simple explanation (she is not using a rh loom but the idea of "placing your weft" is the same)

http://peggyosterkamp.com/2011/09/weaving-advice/

You will get better at that with time. I have a Navajo loom here with about 1/3 of a project and the draw in is so bad I finally stopped. I may start on it again someday but if I do I'll take it completely apart and start over. 

I tried to find a good video at youtube on rh weaving that may help, but in a quick search, I didn't find one that I liked enough to recommend.

However, since you did not warp this originally, before you start your own first project, I would recommend you watch the Ashford Handicrafts youtube vid on warping the rh loom. It was a big help to me when I first started. I actually watched the video each time I warped my rh looms for the first year.

Do you have a book on rh weaving? Do you have a guild in your area? Trial and error is nice but I don't want you to get frustrated.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

Been told I have alot of patience , if I get frustrated , I just ask for help or start over ! :teehee:

I HAVE seen that video !! I will do it that way when I warp next time .... 

That is an AWESOME way Peggy explains it !! 

I have been aware of my edges, but dont know how much is too much draw in ..... Been too into not having loops / tight selveges !


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

Miz Mary, I think you should just not worry about it right now. Just keep weaving and learning. You will notice things as you weave, and you will learn how to fix things as you weave. You will enjoy it a lot so just relax and weave. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished bag. I haven't gotten brave enough to make a bag yet.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

MizMary, I took a close up of my weaving today - I'm working on a different pattern than you (mine is a twill, yours is plain weave) so it's not over one under one like you are doing, it's over two under two and it alternates ... this is a four harness weave, not something you can do (easily) on a rigid heddle loom but I don't want you to be distracted by the funky weave pattern.

I want you to notice how open the fabric is. (Note that this picture is taken from the side: to see how it looks when you are the guy sitting at the loom, tilt your right ear down to your shoulder. )










Now, this is being done in wool and it is intended to be fulled somewhat in the wash. The finished fabric will be dense enough to use for a coat that is comfortable at minus 15 Celsius: it packs right down in the washing. Of course cotton will respond differently than wool, but it WILL pack down a lot in the wet finishing!

You might try weaving a few different yarns and "packing intensity" sections on your warp there, then take it off and wash it. I think you'll be very surprised at the changes! The resulting fabric can be cut into smaller pieces - especially if you have a serger, it's super easy to make little rectangles, or squares for mug rugs, coasters, patches for the knees of your jeans, whatever ... by the time it's off the loom it's just fabric, after all, and you can do whatever you'd normally do with fabric with it!


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

Oh wow Frazzle !! Thats beautiful fabric ! I assume it's the same as the work you posted in the Whatcha Workin' On thread ? I now wonder how long it takes to weave a project ... I notice everytime I sit down with it, I am able to get more done , like my hands are learning the moves smoother !! 

UGH ! The thought of being able to cut up the finished fabric is crazy ! It will be really fun to do actually .... 

I started leaving more space in my weaving, so I will be able to see the difference when I wash it all !! 

I am already planning more projects , cant wait to use my own handspun !!!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

The first time I cut my woven fabric was pretty freaky, I admit it. However, I wove a small piece and fulled it in the machine JUST so I could cut it and see what it did. Because it was thoroughly fulled, it didn't fray one tiny bit. 

Cotton will fray, but then I either use the serger or stay stitch it with the machine (or hem stitch it on the loom first, which also works really, really well, but takes some practice).



Can't wait to see your finished work!

(and yes, that's the blanket from the other thread, just a close up photo)

ETA With wool, at 8 epi and about 8-10 picks per inch (passes of the weft thread every inch of fabric) in a simple weave pattern on about 30-34" width, I can do about 18" in an hour. A coat takes me just over 3 days, with warping, weaving, and sewing up.


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