# heating options???



## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

So my wife and I are planning our homestead. Topic comes to heating source.

Options are Coal, electric, corn, wood pellet, propane, fuel oil.

Discussion this morning was with a friend on how much work wood is and as one ages, the difficulties that are associated with it.

I am finding through google, sources for anthracite coal in both bulk and 40 lb bags.

Using different energy calculators, the price per million BTU's shows they are all coming out to around $14-15 / M-Btu. This is showing $288/ ton for coal, .05 / Kwh for electric and 0.50 / therm for natural gas.

So what would you likely consider?


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

Dont know where you are but wood is the cheapest here, not pellets, split wood. As for age and wood, here we can buy cords pre-split and delivered. Hauling split logs to toss in the stove isnt any harder than hauling bags of pellets. Actually bags of pellets are to heavy for me. I would rather grab 2 split logs at a time.
Electric is second choice here as its second cheapest.
You have to go by whats readily available and cost effective for your area thats workable for you.

I know I wont touch propane or oil as those are the most expensive ways to heat here.

I couldnt do your poll as wood logs are my first choice and what we use, not pellets.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

I specifically left split wood off for the reason that it's not an option for us.



> Discussion this morning was with a friend on how much work wood is and as one ages, the difficulties that are associated with it.


My friend does use split wood and has 140 acres to supply him with it. And as he ages, falls apart (just had vertebra fused and shoulder replaced), he is finding split wood isn't that good of an option for him as it once was.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

For someone that cant carry a log, nothing will be easy other than an auto fuel that takes no labor at all like electric, propane, oil, etc, where the only work is in setting the thermostat. In that case its a matter of what is the cheaper to use in the area. Energy cost varies a lot from area to area.

Pellets, coal, corn, all need labor, lifting bags, feeding the stove, etc. Just as physical as lifting split pieces of wood.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We burn a little bit of coal. It we lived in an area that had coal mines, then I would say that coal should be the primary fuel. It is cheap and domestic.

Otherwise I like wood. Not pellets as there is a great deal of work that goes into making a pellet. If a person wanted to, they can use equipment to drop trees, cut them haul them and split them, with minimal manual labor.

The more ideal fuel source is solar.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

We are all electric. Small and well insulated cottage so it is economical and clean. Radiant, no fans to blow dust and pollutants around. I have a small generator for backup....James


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## Jhn56 (Oct 11, 2011)

Like James, we're all electric too. I noticed in your poll, your price per kWh was .05 - wish that were the case here! We pay close to .13

Keeping in mind prices will just continue to climb, regardless of your source of heat, your best bet would be to build your new home with a good thermal envelope. My best advice would be to spend the money up front on quality doors, windows, insulation etc..., to save $ over the long haul and size the system based on btu loss for efficiency. Don't install or pay for, more than you actually need.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

the cost of electricity is taking it off my dad's utility bill. He is also on off-peak control with the local REA to get that rate.


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

Something to consider is using more than one heat source. Why I say this is because if the power goes out; many are suprised what no-longer works...

Me, I use fuel oil as my "main" heat, but also have a wood stove as back-up. Although for the most part the wood stove is going 24/7 excluding us taking off for an extended day trip or such.
And yes, doing wood as a person gets older does get to be work. But the cutting, spliting, piling, and hauling spread out over the year is something that does keep me active....:goodjob:


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

What about cooling???


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

ELEctric flip a switch if it is dead you lose
propane needs electric 
nat gas needs electric
pellets lots of carrying 40 -50 lb bags needs elect
coal dirty lots of carrying need s elect
Sounds to me like you need a bckup elect source and your fuel is realy immaterial
I have tried all and am back to wood again.
Back still doesn't like it but as above alittle at a time keeps me out of the wifes hair
Steve


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Wood wasnt an option, but I use and choose wood.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't see passive solar listed either. While not available 24/7 it is very nice and totally free. It's a viable supplement option, provided the house is well insulated and properly sited.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

If I could get cheap coal I would have a wood/coal furnace, oil back up.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

If it were me it'd be passive and active solar combination with a Masonry heater as backup. For a central heating system for when I take that 2 week winter vacation I'd have whatever's cheapest that's available, where I am that means either propane or oil.


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## Jhn56 (Oct 11, 2011)

Farmerj, have you researched geothermal? It's possible you could qualify for both state and federal tax rebates to cushion the costs as its a renewable energy, depending which state you live in. I built my home last year, and as I said in my earlier post, it is 100% electric.

My system, is the closed loop horizontal trench type (filled with a glycol solution), which is forced air, via water to air heat exchanger. The system has a built in desuperheater, that basically gives me free hot water in the summer time (cooling mode). It works perfectly!

To give you an idea on the numbers, the system cost me 17K after rebates, but considering what I pay per kWh (.13), + transmission and supply costs, and the taxes, I'm not complaining. My first years total average cost was $161/mo. My monthly costs in my previous home were $375/mo., which included natural gas, AND it had a fireplace.

Depending on what you build, it's possible to do it much cheaper too. Had I just built a "regular" ranch :bash: (long story that involves my better half), rather than a sprawling layout with bumpouts, dormers etc..., and a 2nd zone option making the unfinished second floor (9/12 cape style) "ready", I could have saved 25-30% in equipment, ductwork and labor costs. 

Since you are still in the planning stage, please consider this: The "first" costs when building, are the actual building costs. The "true" costs are all those associated with the home throughout the homes lifetime, such as costs for hot water heating, electric, gas, hvac etc... While carefully considering which system is best for you, also consider spending more on your first costs (doors, windows, insulation etc...), to avoid the much higher true costs, which will only compound $upward$

BTW, that last bit of info, is something that stuck in my head while attending an alternative energy seminar in Philadelphia a few years ago, I also watched a similar PBS presentation about the very same subject. As I recall, the "true" costs actually accounted for more than 70% of the homes total cost through its lifetime.

http://www.pbs.org/greenbuilders/transcript.html, I found this link (transcript of the PBS show). By scrolling down about midway, (Graphic title: beyond a single building) there is mention of lifecycle costs which are actually closer to 80%.
Too bad the actual show isn't viewable


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

SteveO said:


> ELEctric flip a switch if it is dead you lose
> propane needs electric
> nat gas needs electric
> pellets lots of carrying 40 -50 lb bags needs elect
> ...


Don't know what type of coal stove you are thinking of, But of the 3 we have and use none of them use electric. 1 of them burns "nut" coal and the other 2 burn "pea" coal.. 

Now as to the original post.. The answer to your question is what is available in your area. Coal will become harder to get in the near future because of Obama and his EPA. They are making it hard for the mines to provide coal unless it is being exported to China. Then they are allowed to produce all they want... 

From 1991 till 2000 we used wood, till a drunk driver decided my Goldwing looked better embedded into the side of his car. I wasn't able to cut or split the wood due to the time it took to heal. I had to learn to walk again before I could do wood. Anyway, Then we switched to coal and have been using that since. Now if the price of coal continues to go up as it has we won't be able to afford that and may have to go back to wood..

So check your area and see what the costs for a ton of coal is and how much it is to deliver...


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## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

Using one of the infra red element type heaters can space heat around a 1000 sq. ft. if there is decent insulation and double windows.


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## Coloneldad5 (Dec 6, 2011)

Natural gas is probably one of the most inexpensive methods of heating overall. Wood (log) burning is probably the cheapest with work, but as you stated that is not an option. Propane is fairly inexpensive and cheaper to start up with (at least for me). I have propane at my homestead only because we wanted a certain degree of independence (we can set up a couple of tanks and not worry about it for a few months) and because it was quite a bit cheaper in start up costs (we are 400 feet off the road and the cost of running NG to was was significant). 

Electricity would only be feasible in my opinion if you are set up with solar panels, wind turbine or a hydro power system on your property. That would make it feasible in the long run. Electric heating is generally not economically sound nor as efficient as compared to other options. Now if you are in a much milder climate such as the south US, then it may not be an issue, but up north it would be.

One of the issues many folks deal with, which are often forgotten in the planing stages, are the initial costs. These can be from running the lines in to initial equipment.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Coloneldad5 said:


> Natural gas is probably one of the most inexpensive methods of heating overall. Wood (log) burning is probably the cheapest with work, but as you stated that is not an option. Propane is fairly inexpensive and cheaper to start up with (at least for me). I have propane at my homestead only because we wanted a certain degree of independence (we can set up a couple of tanks and not worry about it for a few months) and because it was quite a bit cheaper in start up costs (we are 400 feet off the road and the cost of running NG to was was significant).
> 
> Electricity would only be feasible in my opinion if you are set up with solar panels, wind turbine or a hydro power system on your property. That would make it feasible in the long run. Electric heating is generally not economically sound nor as efficient as compared to other options. Now if you are in a much milder climate such as the south US, then it may not be an issue, but up north it would be.
> 
> One of the issues many folks deal with, which are often forgotten in the planing stages, are the initial costs. These can be from running the lines in to initial equipment.



Thank you for a well thought out response.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I just installed in-wall electric heaters. I can heat only the space we are using. I don't have wasted heat going out thru ductwork nor do I have to deal with the dust and mold that ductwork inevitably collects. I put a 240vac unit in the living room/kitchen area and 3 120vac units in the 3 bedrooms (1 per room). My total cost, including paying someone to install, was about $720.

I have used coal and wood in the past as well as natural gas central heat and like this the best. As I get older, I just do not want the mess and work of coal or wood and don't want central. Nat gas is not an option here and propane is expensive. We use window a/c units.

It is always a good idea to have a non-electric backup source of heat, but you don't have to use it constantly, day to day. I have a wood stove that I can install if I really need to and small propane heaters for shorter emergencies. I haven't needed them since I moved here though. The electric coop is good at getting the power restored rapidly whenever it goes off.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

beowoulf90 said:


> Coal will become harder to get in the near future because of Obama and his EPA.


 Shoot,coal won't be a problem for us, all we gotta do is walk down to the creek bank with a shovel and a bucket. Tons of the stuff down there! Its all soft bituminous, though. Like burning a tire. I throw a piece in the woodburner from time to time, as a novelty. Actually not in a few years, it just smells too bad.
I wouldn't complain too much about the EPA, you DONT want to breathe the unscrubbed fumes from a bituminous coal fire. And the EPA is going after the OLDER, filthier plants that ARE a hazard to human health. As proof, just this year a brand new, billion dollar coal-fired powerplant just opened up about fifteen miles from here. They built it right over the mine. And yeah, they needed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of scrubbers, but thats the price you pay when you burn dirty coal and want clean air.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

FarmerJ, where you guys at? Is passive solar an option? You'd be surprised the amount of BTUs you can harvest during a cold but clear day. This would be most effective in the western states, at elevation. They generally have clearer, colder winters. 
Orient your house so the windows face south. Put overhangs on them to shield the summer sun, I'm sure you've heard all this before...

If I was unable to split wood, for sheer convenience I'd go with electric, with propane as a backup. As it stands now, we burn wood and have a small electric baseboard heater to take the chill off. We got a ventless propane heater, but its in storage now, as I don't like the thought of ventless combustion in my house. Could use it as another backup, though.


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## Coloneldad5 (Dec 6, 2011)

The problem with the many of the propane heaters is the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. Many folks, especially older folks, die each year from those things. Unless you have a drafty house the risk is very real and significant. Most modern homes are too sealed up to allow you to use them safely. 

The passive solar heating is definitely a great and inexpensive option. If you are building then you can anticipate some additional costs to do it right, but you can also do a lot of things that will work much the same way by as Greg stated orienting your house the right way. That can save you tons of money in the long run. 

However, redundancy is always good. Having more than one system to heat your house or provide is just practical. In the military organization that I've spent most of my time with we have an acronym "PACE" This stands for Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency. When we plan things we have our primary plan, a back up alternate plan, a contingency plan if things go bad and then the emergency plan for when it hits the fan.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

edited by me.. This is the wrong forum to say what I said...

Imagine that!


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Coloneldad5 said:


> The problem with the many of the propane heaters is the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. Many folks, especially older folks, die each year from those things. Unless you have a drafty house the risk is very real and significant. Most modern homes are too sealed up to allow you to use them safely.
> 
> The passive solar heating is definitely a great and inexpensive option. If you are building then you can anticipate some additional costs to do it right, but you can also do a lot of things that will work much the same way by as Greg stated orienting your house the right way. That can save you tons of money in the long run.
> 
> However, redundancy is always good. Having more than one system to heat your house or provide is just practical. In the military organization that I've spent most of my time with we have an acronym "PACE" This stands for Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency. When we plan things we have our primary plan, a back up alternate plan, a contingency plan if things go bad and then the emergency plan for when it hits the fan.


Also here propane is expensive.. My last bill was something like $3.05 a gal. Thankfully we only use it to cook and hot water. Oil for us isn't an option at this time since our 250 yo home has never had a furnace, hence no duct work or way to run duct.. Propane is too expensive. No NG lines even though a major pipe line is just up the road. So that leaves kerosene space heaters, wood, or coal... Oh forgot electric, well that is also too expensive here and just keeps going up, because everyone has cut back, so the electric company keeps raising the rates per KW/hr


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Coloneldad5 said:


> The problem with the many of the propane heaters is the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. ...


A CO monitor is cheap.

I have one plugged in even though we do not use an un-vented propane heater.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

This cottage was an old carriage house with 12" thick limestone block walls. I put 2"x6" walls inside and insulated very well, triple gas filled windows. Living and bedroom faces south with 24" roof overhangs. Well placed trees for summer shade, no air conditioning needed. I use a small electric heater in each room. I did this for a retirement home when I got old, well, health is the reason now as we have an off grid cabin and are not able at this time to handle the wood stove. Only a little over 480 sq. ft, living and bed room can be closed off and heated seperately. Bath and kitchen have floor heat under the tile, all on electronic programable thermostats. I couldn't heat this place with wood for the cost of electricity. 3 120 volt heaters at 125.00 each and 35.00 ea. for the 5 thermostats. The offgrid cabin was heated with passive solar and a small woodstove fueled by leftover kiln dried lumber from construction projects....James


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

greg273 said:


> FarmerJ, where you guys at? Is passive solar an option? You'd be surprised the amount of BTUs you can harvest during a cold but clear day. This would be most effective in the western states, at elevation. They generally have clearer, colder winters.
> Orient your house so the windows face south. Put overhangs on them to shield the summer sun, I'm sure you've heard all this before...
> 
> If I was unable to split wood, for sheer convenience I'd go with electric, with propane as a backup. As it stands now, we burn wood and have a small electric baseboard heater to take the chill off. We got a ventless propane heater, but its in storage now, as I don't like the thought of ventless combustion in my house. Could use it as another backup, though.


We are in central minnesota west of the Minneapolis area a ways.


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## NorthCountryWd (Oct 17, 2008)

farmerj said:


> We are in central minnesota west of the Minneapolis area a ways.


You have to look at the history of different fuels in you area. What has the price of LP vs electric vs home heating oil been? 

Around here I've priced them all and Natural Gas is the lowest cost per BTU, but very few have it here. HHO is second, propane next and electric dead last. 

The house we're planning on building will be an HHO boiler....with outdoor wood boiler, woodstove, wood cookstove (we have our own woodlot) and supplemented with solar hydronic.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2012)

(1) You need at least 2 heat sources. One has to be able to run without electricity. Both need to be able to keep your house comfortable in the dead of winter. That way when the power goes out (when not if) you will still have heat.

(2) The secondary heat source should take over automaticaly if the primary heat source quits working. Otherwise you could come home to frozen pipes and frozen canned preps.

(3) What types of heat sources you use depends on how much work you are willing to put in and how much money you can spend on heat. Keep in mind that if you buy fuel to provide your heat, it will inevitibly go up in price. The price increase may be sudden and enormous if the supply is restricted by Oboma regs, war, some foreign leader or another reason. The price of all fuels will go up if one does, although probably by not as much.

(4) Types of heat;
(A) Passive solar. High cost up front for materials. No cost for operation. Not usually enough to supply all the heat but cuts down on the amount of fuel needed.
(B) Wood log heat. Cheap, especially if you cut and split the wood yourself from your wood lot. Needs to be loaded periodicaly. Most work. No electricity needed. Stoves are much more efficient than fireplaces. Some fireplaces can suck in more cold than they produce in heat.
(C) Wood pellets/corn burner. Moderatly priced. Some labor involved. Needs to be loaded periodicaly. Electricity needed for most. 
(D) Propane/natural gas. Fairly expensive. No labor involved. Can require electricity but some don't. If you are worried about CO, get a CO detector. If you are planning a gas stove you already have gas plumbed in the house.
(E) Geothermal. Expensive up front but lower operating costs. Most claim cost is 1/4 that of baseboard electric. Needs electricity. No labor. Can be reversed to provide AC and hot water in the summer. 
(F) Fuel oil. Fairly expensive. No labor involved. Requires electricity. Can collect moisture but won't spoil.
(G) Electric heat. Usually the most expensive. No labor. 
(H) Coal. Moderatly priced. Labor needed to be loaded periodicaly. Dirty. May need electricity if a blower is used. Check the local supply before you put in coal.
(I) Solar panels. Would need a prohibitivly expensive system to provide heat in MN.

In my case, I have wood log heat as primary and propane as secondary. If the power goes out, and I am home or can get home, the wood stove will keep things toasty. If the wood stove goes out the propane furnace kicks on. The thermostat is set to a lower temp than the wood stove usually keeps the house. I do have a generator to keep the well house warm if the power goes out. It can also power a few things in an emergency. A geothermal heat pump would be nice but is beyond the budget for now. The next project is a wood gas powered generator, perhaps followed by a violent disconect from the grid with a 12 guage.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

In a grid down scenario... the only fuel you might have is what you see out your window. If I had a coal seam in the backyard, my heat would be coal. Electric, propane, oil, pellets.... all have to be delivered... meaning you'd be depending on someone else to take care of you.... "grid down" your SOL. 

At least with a wood stove, you can (regardless of how good you feel) go out and get some free wood, or, burn your books and furniture. The other sources, outside of that 'coal seam' in the back, leaves you freezing.

I have a woodstove, piped with natural gas... since my gas is free, plan on using it forever.... If Ng is an option, it might actually still flow into your home, even if the world stopped spinning... that is, unless your unlucky enough to be using 'my' gas. In a shtf scenario, I'm cutting my well off from the pipeline, and using it all myself.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

texican said:


> In a grid down scenario... the only fuel you might have is what you see out your window. If I had a coal seam in the backyard, my heat would be coal. Electric, propane, oil, pellets.... all have to be delivered... meaning you'd be depending on someone else to take care of you.... "grid down" your SOL.
> 
> At least with a wood stove, you can (regardless of how good you feel) go out and get some free wood, or, burn your books and furniture. The other sources, outside of that 'coal seam' in the back, leaves you freezing.
> 
> I have a woodstove, piped with natural gas... since my gas is free, plan on using it forever.... If Ng is an option, it might actually still flow into your home, even if the world stopped spinning... that is, unless your unlucky enough to be using 'my' gas. In a shtf scenario, I'm cutting my well off from the pipeline, and using it all myself.


You forgot one option of fuel. But I understand due to where you are located.

Peat.

When we lived in Scotland, about half of our home heating fuel was peat [the other half was coal].

In our home now, we did burn peat one year. I harvested the peat myself from an adjacent property. 

North America holds over 90% of the world's peat resources.

A 'green' renewable fuel resource.

Peat harvesters can re-harvest a peat bog every 8-years on average.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Farmerj

Get a stove designed to burn Bituminous. They burn it cleanly.

70 dollars a ton... If you need direction in this regard. Go here.

http://nepacrossroads.com/forum-74.html


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

texican said:


> In a grid down scenario... the only fuel you might have is what you see out your window. If I had a coal seam in the backyard, my heat would be coal. Electric, propane, oil, pellets.... all have to be delivered... meaning you'd be depending on someone else to take care of you.... "grid down" your SOL.


Texican... Coal was delivered here at the stead........ When Texas was Mexico. :grin:

Grids... need not apply!


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Propane is out for me, makes me nauseous. I do have the off grid cabin if needed. Wood, passive solar and microhydro there. Elec was the best option here, no natural gas, coal is expensive. Wood pellets are cheap enough, stove is expensive and just don't like. I know the grid will, can and does go out. I am at the end of the line, hasn't yet since we have been here. I have the little generator and dedicated outlets, we have tested for 2 week intervals, works well. We are minimalists, very little usage, when we need it we power up for 20 minutes to an hour a day, maybe longer in warm weather for refrigeration use but we can do without refrigeration if needed....James


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Interesting that corn has received no attention......


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## m39fan (Apr 11, 2005)

Corn isn't cheap and price varies according to markets. With increased demand for corn to use as fuel (Ethanol, etc) and food, you might soon find that you can no longer afford to keep warm. Most of the people I knew with Corn stoves have long since gotten rid of them (and that was in Indiana when corn is pretty common). Most also need pampering. Too much moisture and it won't feed or burn correctly, clinkers have to be cleaned out regularly and then you have the fact that you tend to attract every rodent in the county with that much corn in your storage building.

HTH,
Mike


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

m39fan said:


> Corn isn't cheap and price varies according to markets. With increased demand for corn to use as fuel (Ethanol, etc) and food, you might soon find that you can no longer afford to keep warm. Most of the people I knew with Corn stoves have long since gotten rid of them (and that was in Indiana when corn is pretty common). Most also need pampering. Too much moisture and it won't feed or burn correctly, clinkers have to be cleaned out regularly and then you have the fact that you tend to attract every rodent in the county with that much corn in your storage building.
> 
> HTH,
> Mike


 Plus, it would be essentially burning food, which doesn't sound like a great idea. And corn takes a lot of energy to plant, grow, harvest, process,and transport...


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## Blue Yonder (Jan 28, 2008)

Whereas wood has been removed from the options, I think it bears considering if you don't think in terms of feeding a wood stove or furnace with large chunks/logs of wood. 

You might consider another option that is "when the grid goes down" friendly and is still the cheapest method of heating and burning wood~even if you grow old and infirm.

A rocket mass heater...takes minimal wood and of the size that can be easily gathered in the form of dead fall limbs, scrap wood, etc. My mother is 77 and still heating with wood but has found running the chainsaw and gathering her own a little daunting when she lives by herself. We are building her a rocket mass stove this spring to solve this problem. 

She will not give up the good quality and cheap nature of wood burning so we just had to problem solve how she could still do this economically and realistically as she ages. All the articles I've read about this form of wood heating states a person can go from burning 4 cords of cut and split wood to the equivalent of 1 cord...and it's all wood one wouldn't normally consider gathering but is likely right outside in the woodlot behind your house. 

Wood that even an old lady can bend over and pick up out of her yard, bundle for use and still heat the house efficiently.


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## pheasantplucker (Feb 20, 2007)

I'll never be without a woodstove...I don't care one hoot how old I get...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

SteveO said:


> ELEctric flip a switch if it is dead you lose
> propane needs electric
> nat gas needs electric
> pellets lots of carrying 40 -50 lb bags needs elect
> ...


You can use natural gas without electic if you use the small room heaters.


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## pheasantplucker (Feb 20, 2007)

A friend of mine and his wife built a place with thermal energy...says it's pricey to start with but pays for itself over time...


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