# Silvopasture - Rotational grazing & Cattle in a Forest setting



## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

I am interested in establishing a Silvopasture system â i.e. a rotational grazing system combined with forest for timber production. The key to Silvopasture is managed intensive (rotational) grazing, but since it is a little bit different than conventional MIG, I thought Iâd start a new thread. Iâm just starting out, and would appreciate the forumâs thoughts about such a system. 

Silvopasture has benefits and problems as with any system. 
Benefits:
- Better cash flow than forestry alone (i.e. cash-flow from cattle between timber harvests)
- Price of timber tends to move in the opposite direction as cattle - cattle prices up, timber down, and vice versa, which helps to steady out your cash-flow also
- Shade / wind break provides for better environment to cattle in both winter and summer. Studies have shown increased grazing in the heat of summer and better weight retention in winter.
- prolonged grass growing season into summer, because of shade/cooler micro environment than open pasture 
- improved timber quality and higher per tree sale value
- reduced fire hazard
- improved timber growth from fertilization/nitrogen from legumes
- makes sense if you have timber already, and want to add cattle (my situation)
- pretty (I know subjective, but I think pastures with trees is prettier than pure pasture)

Problems:
- from a cattle program stand point, carrying capacity is decreased to about Â½ that of what it could be in a pure pasture setting due to portion of land growing trees instead of grass and due to shading
- from a forest standpoint, you grow fewer trees, hense lower profits. (controversial, some say this is offset because the trees grow larger/faster with less crowding which offsets decreased number of trees)

For me, since I am starting out from a pure forest setting, with no cattle and no pasture, I have two options if I want cattle. 1) clear cut and plant pasture, 2) thin/cut into a silvopasture set-up. 

Since I already have productive timber, I think it makes more sense to start with silvopasture, in order to maximize the return on the trees already planted, while enabling me to begin to purchase cattle. I am hopeful that the combination of forest and cattle will be worthwhile in the long-term. If, however, it turns out that the cattle side of the operation is more profitable, I can always increase the carrying capacity by harvesting more timber and converting the land to pure pasture. On the other hand, if the cattle don't work out, I haven't sacrificed all the timber (timber is a slow growing crop...with it's best gains in volume occurring after the age of 30. 

Here are some links for those of you who are interested in learning more about silvopasture:
Nice video lecture:
http://www.forestryvideos.net/videos/cover-your-assets-silvopasture-a-successful-alternative
Some articles:
http://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/environment_and_recreation/forestry/silvopasture.html
http://www.unl.edu/nac/silvopasture.htm
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr139
An online course in silvopasture 
http://www.silvopasture.org/


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

I guess I should start off by explaining what I have currently, so we can talk about how to get where I want to go. 

I have ~188 acres of forested land, with:
~27 acres of long leaf pine (17 years old &#8211; nearly ready for thinning)
~18 acres loblolly pine (18 years old last thinned 2008)
~ 40 acres of mature loblolly pine (30 years old &#8211; ready for thinning or harvest as combination chip&saw and saw lumber)
~60 acres of Natural pine (last thinned 2008)
~20 acres of loblolly planted in 1009. 
The remainder is hardwood forest along the stream on one side of the property.

There is a small stream that runs down one side of the property. It&#8217;s about 4 feet wide, on average, and maybe 6-12 inches deep, slow flowing, but never runs dry, based on what people tell me who live around there. The area immediately around the stream is low lying and when it rains, floods/gets pretty muddy, but by 30 ft away, you are 5 to 10 feet higher, and it not swampy at all.

The front roughly Â½ of the property (long leaf, planted loblolly) is in planted, well managed timber. The Longleaf and 93 pines can be managed as one group and will need thinning in the next 2 -3 years. The 30 year old pine could be harvested now, but best profits would be to thin it slightly (15%) for chip&saw now, and in start saw lumber / veneer block harvests in 5 years. 
The back half of the property has in 20 acres of 2 year old Baby Planted pine (lightest yellow), and 55-60 acres of natural pine forest. This half of the property is not in as great shape as the front half. The 20 acres of baby pine was planted after a fire. The rows are 10 ft apart with trees ever 5 feet. But between the rows is a lot of deadwood. They cut the rows in down to the soil, which pushed the dead wood together in&#8230; I guess you could call them windrows, about 4ft wide, and a foot or two thick, which are slowly decomposing. There is a fair amount of overgrowth of shrubs which should be cut back or controlled with an herbicide to give the baby trees more light. Unfortunately, the rows of baby trees run 30 degrees west of north, not east-west. I would need to change this if I go to a row based silvopasture set-up.

The 60 acres of natural pine has some areas which are quite steep. I blocked this out in the picture, because I think it should be left undisturbed to protect against erosion. As natural pine, this area isn&#8217;t uniformly aged trees (probably 5 to 20 years old), nor are they uniformly spaced, or optimally thinned. A bit of work to be done in this section.

Here&#8217;s a picture:










Definite Plans:
- spend this winter and the first part of next year finalizing plans for getting started this spring or next fall. I want to get a better handle on what my final game plan is before moving too far ahead. Once you cut a 30 year old tree, you can&#8217;t put it back&#8230; I figure putting a lot of thought into the process now will more than make up for the lost year in not starting right now.
- Summer of 2012 at the earliest, 2013 at the latest, break ground for our home
- Thin/harvest prior to breaking ground

This is what I'm working on now - planning for the long term so I can make the right decisions regarding the thin/harvest next year. I have some thoughts about that, but it's almost time for church, so I'll have to post more on that later.


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## momofseven (Oct 10, 2008)

I know nothing about this, but I am anxiously awaiting some answers. Can you run cattle in a forest? What do they eat? We have 40 acres of mature hardwoods and we're going to put pasture in eventually and we want more cows. So.....(tapping foot here) how can this be done?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Hi momofseven,

From what I've read, it definitely can be done. The links I listed above are mostly pine forest based, but here's a link that has some info on hardwoods - http://www.centerforagroforestry.org/practices/sp.asp

Do a google search on hardwood silvopasture, or hardwood agroforestry and you will find a lot more information. I know I've seen other sites, but since I have pine I didn't save them to my favorites list.

Best wishes,


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

OK, So Sunday afternoon my wife and I went for a long hike throughout some of the "wilderness" (natural pine) areas of the property. I confess that I am biased, but it sure was pretty. Mostly, we wanted to get a handle on what we had to work with in the back half of the property. 

As I mentioned, the front half is already in timber production. I don't want to disrupt this process. In the mature pine section, I don't mind thinning to the point where I can grow pasture underneath either next if a 15% thinning will get me there, or 5-7 years down the road when we harvest the first half as veneer block. I'm waiting to hear back from the forester on if the thinning we have planned for next fall will get us there or not.

In the back, I have two very different situations. In the northern tip of the property, there is baby pine, which is a bit overgrown at the moment with broadleaf brush. The forester suggests treating it with an herbicide that will kill the brush but spare the pine. I have mixed feelings about this. I asked him about bush-hogging instead (not that I have a tractor or bush-hog... but still). Anyhow, here's a couple of pics:



















There are two problems with this area, in terms of eventually having a silvopasture set up here. First, the rows are 10ft wide, with trees every 5 feet (no problem there) but they run 30 degrees west of north to 30 degrees east of south... Need to be east west for least amount of shading on the forage. I have a solution for that - If I harvest every other tree from each row, alternating between taking the first tree or the second tree in every other row, I can shift the rows to east west. See diagram below. 

x's are trees, _ are where a tree was removed. North is in the upper right of each square, East is in the upper left. The new row spacing is about 10 feet, so if I take out 3 rows for every two, I will have 40ft rows for pasture between the trees. 

East ----------------------------North---East ----------------------------North---East -----------------------------North
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes x....._.....x....._.....x....._.....x becomes _....._.....x....._.....x....._....._
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes _.....x....._.....x....._.....x....._ becomes _....._....._.....x....._.....x....._
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes x....._.....x....._.....x....._.....x becomes _....._....._....._.....x....._.....x
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes _.....x....._.....x....._.....x....._ becomes _....._....._....._....._.....x....._ 
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes x....._.....x....._.....x....._.....x becomes _....._....._....._....._....._.....x
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes _.....x....._.....x....._.....x....._ becomes x....._....._....._....._....._....._ 
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes x....._.....x....._.....x....._.....x becomes _.....x....._....._....._....._....._
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes _.....x....._.....x....._.....x....._ becomes x....._.....x....._....._....._....._ 
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes x....._.....x....._.....x....._.....x becomes _.....x....._.....x....._....._....._
...x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x.....x becomes _.....x....._.....x....._.....x....._ becomes _....._.....x....._.....x....._....._
South----------------------------West---South----------------------------West---South----------------------------West



The other problem concerns me more. This area was planted after a fire about 3 years ago, and there is a lot of deadwood in the area. They basically cut in rows for the trees, pushing the dead wood into piles between the rows of trees. In some areas it is hardly noticible, in others, it's pretty thick.










An thoughts on what to do about the dead wood, in terms of getting forage to grow in this area?


The other area is "natural" pine forest. 









(huge oak in with the pine trees, pretty no? - definitely staying!)

I'm still thinking about what to do with this, but right now, I think the best answer would be to clear it, except for the dominant trees, and plant rows of baby pines on a 5x10x40 spacing running east west (pines every 5 feet in the row, with rows 10 feet apart, and 40 feet between every 2 rows of pine) This is pretty much a standard spacing (some do 4x8x40).

If I did this, I would have them cut the trees flush with the ground. The stumps could rot in place for 3-4 years (long enough for the trees to get to a size large enough to be safe from cows.) And then if needed I could go pull them with a back-hoe. Any thoughts about this?

Finally, anyone have any suggestions regarding equipment? So far I've I can see that I will need a good sized tractor (is 45 to 75hp about right?) and a good bush-hog. A few years down the road I may need a back-hoe attachment to pull the stumps. Any thing else?


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

ArmyDoc, I was involved with silviculture/pasture for 12 years but mostly on the forest side of it - I started off planting and ended up pruning and thinning to waste along the lines of your diagram. The trees were Pinus Radiata and the concept of running two tier farming (trees and stock) is called agroforestry.

This was on a 7,000 acre station that ran Angus cattle and Perendale sheep, all of which grazed in the trees. Pregnant cattle were wintered in older, thinned blocks because the microclimate in trees in such that it is much warmer and the cows expended less energy keeping warm and more in keeping in good condition.

The management of an agroforestry block is quite complex and I don't know that I'm up to being able to pass on what limited knowledge I have of it to be of any use to you. But ask away if you think I might have an answer. 

BTW, your forester is right - release spray your young pines.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

ArmyDoc

I read several references in your posts regarding the orientation of the trees but I have not observed at my place a concern. Actually my "fairways" run north/south and I see a benefit. I have cool season grasses and with the hot summer temps the shade in the afternoon conserves moisture and extends the productive period. When moisture is in short supply the tress aid the grass significantly on the east side of the trees. There is definitely a marked difference. On the areas that do receive shade to the north the grass does not grow nearly as well. Is there any chance that the east/west directions you mentioned are area/location related?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Ronnie! Please feel free to comment on anything you see that needs to be addressed. I'm learning all of this as I go, and welcome any constructive comments or questions.

Agmantoo,
As I understand it, it has to do with the amount of shade on the forage. Since the sun is lowest in the morning and at night when it is in the east or west respectively, the shadows tend to fall on the trees when they ar longest, and on the grass when they are shortest. I made up a table in MS Excell if anyone is interested looking at shadow length and amount of shade in the pasture with rows runing NS, NW, NE and EW. There is less shading with the East West orientation. 
But I don't know how crucial it is - the other silvopasture option is block planting with the trees 17 to 20 ft apart or more - no rows at all, and it seems to work. But the prefference seems to be rows. Hmm. Wonder why? Wonder if theres more trees with the rows? Will have to look into that.


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## godsgapeach (Jan 1, 2009)

Hey, ArmyDoc. I saw mention on the rotational thread something about possible equipment purchase and a seed drill (forgive me, I didn't read all the details). 

Before you go far with that consideration, check with your local NRCS office. There was talk here of some "regions" in GA (several counties) purchasing a drill and that it could be reserved for a nominal fee. I don't know if that might be available in your area, and haven't checked into it here lately--the meeting I went to was about a year ago. But I'd sure ask before dropping my own $$ for one.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Wow, great news! I'll check with the extension agents and see if they know about one being availble. I guess the other option would be to rent one.

One of the biggest questions I have is what kind of tractor to get. I know I will need one - is 45-75 hp enough? (too much?) What brand is best? Agmantoo sugested a low hour Massey Fergusson. There are a couple on Craigslist, but I dont' know what a good price is. I have a friend at church who knows more about this sort of thing - I think I'll ask him what he thinks and if he'd be willing to go looking with me.

A bushhog is definitely needed too - I already have several days to a weeks worth of work for that... But I will also need some way to prepare the soil and plant the forages. When I was a kid, we used a disc harrow and spread the seed by a rotary spreader (hand cranked by your's truly...) But I've read a no till drill is better for preserving the sois structure, and with the stumps being present, I don't think the disc harrow is an option. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## godsgapeach (Jan 1, 2009)

I'm trying to find the paperwork from that meeting, but no luck so far. It was at the Farm Bureau conference room, but the speakers were NRCS and FSA folks. Somebody from one of those organizations might be able to help. And I'll see what I can track down, too.

As for the tractors, I'm no expert. The ones I know and drive are all John Deere. 

I assume you know about the Market Bulletin http://www.agr.state.ga.us/mbads/Ads.aspx?CategoryID=435

That's where Daddy looks first and where he posts to sell.

Hope that's a little help.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

No, I wasn't familiar with it - but it's on my favorites list now! Thanks. I've mostly been looking on craig's list. 

I talked with the extension agents for my county, but they are mostly 4h oriented. I have a friend who lives in Burke County (next county over) and he says they are wonderful. He's going to get me their names - don't know if they'll be willing to work with me since I'm not in their county, but I hope so.


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## godsgapeach (Jan 1, 2009)

The agents are usually pretty flexible, especially if your county's agents have a different specialty. Our local guy is a plant guy.

The market bulletin used to be in print and it came every other Wednesday. I don't know if you can still get it that way or not (if so it's like $10 a year), but the internet updates it as soon as someone posts an ad, so it's much quicker. And if there's a hot deal, sometimes it's sold before the print one comes out. I think South Carolina has one too--just google it and see if you find something closer. You never know.


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## mrpink (Jun 29, 2008)

yes it still comes in the mail every other wed. and you are correct its is now $10 per year. I didn't know the internet site updated right away though. I thought they loaded a new one as they had the mailed ones ready. I'll have to check into that.

greg


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## Glenda in MS (Sep 15, 2007)

Have you considered Pineywoods Cattle? They will eat anything, and I think you would be able to rum ,ore of them on your scrub than commercial cattle.

We have Kabota's and love them.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Hi Glenda,

Pineywoods Cattle are an interesting breed - I just read about them on the ALBC site. I haven't fully settled on the breed we will be using, but at the moment I am still leaning towards Red Angus. I like red cattle (also like the Red Pol, and Senepol breeds) but Red Angus seem to be more economically viable - the Angus name I guess. I may get docked at the sale barn, because they are red not black. I need to look into this more as we get closer. One of the local fellows tells me the Red Angus are docked less than the other non-black breeds around here, but again, I need to look into it for myself to be sure.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Question: Does anyone know what a fair price to charge someone who wants to rake my pine straw?

I'm told they harvest about 800 bales each season (1600 for the year) That seems low. I read that the average harvest is 60-80 bales per acre on the low range, and 120-250 on the high end. He offered, $.50 per bale. I've been told that the price ranges any where from $.40 to $1.00 per bale to the land owner. Does anyone know the current price in georgia?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> ArmyDoc
> 
> ArmyDoc
> 
> ...


I can answer some of these questions now, and will have to research the others.

How did you get that area of forest you cleared to look so nice so quickly? I got the impression you cut the stumps flush and then waited for a while before pulling them. But what else did you do?

As far as the silvopasture, the easiest area to understand / conceptualize for me is in the strip technique. i.e. where the trees are in rows (usually 2 rows) sepparated by 40 feet or so of pasture. This is what I will be doing in the area in the back of the propery - where there is currently baby pine. I expect I will also be doing this on the "natural pine", though it may be a bit harder to get this started because of the mature trees. Only the area in the rows will ever have stumps in it - the strips of pasture will remain pasture for ever.

For the area with the baby trees, I don't see any stumps (it was cleared by forest fire ~3 years ago could they be gone that fast? or just burried when they cleared the area?) The biggest problem is all the deadwood up there. I don't know what to do about it. I guess I could chip the bigger stuff, and disc the smaller stuff under?

In the natural pine areas, there would be stumps... You had suggested cutting the trees flush, letting the stumps rot in place, and going back in 2-3 years and cherry picking them out with a track hoe or back hoe. Wouldn't this still work? I'm not sure why after stump removal you couldn't harrow or do what ever other ground prep you wanted between rows of trees... I guess you'd need to stay a certain distance from their roots.

In the areas where the trees are being thinned, but not to rows, the trees will be on a grid with about 20-25 feet apart. If it werent for the stumps, I could just run a harrow down between the trees... Not sure what to do with the stumps, but after 2- 3 years, couldn't I pull them as you suggested and then smooth it out by running a harrow between the trees? I was thinking, if I got the back 20 going (no stumps that I can see) then I would have a bit of time for the stumps to rot in the other areas. Then I could pull them, and try to get the ground prepped better.

As for what to plant, ultimately I was planning on planting a combination of fesque, bahia and crimson clover. (I am open to suggestions for other combinations). I have thought about trying to brodcast some winter rye up there now... but don't know if it would be worthwhile / what site prep would be needed.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

"How did you get that area of forest you cleared to look so nice so quickly? I got the impression you cut the stumps flush and then waited for a while before pulling them. But what else did you do?"

I base most things I do on the financial impact. The area you reference was harvested for the hard wood and the logs were sold creating a tax obligation. This obligation was partially offset by the expense associated in land prep to minimize erosion. I have an old cat track loader. I removed the small stumps and tree laps and windrowed the trash wood. I hired the stumps removed with a large track hoe. The stumps were left adjacent to where the trees grew. My machine could handle the large stumps once they were out of the ground. I moved the stumps and formed a farmers version of a silt fence and left them to decay. Using my machine I filled the stump holes and smoothed the area. I then took my tractor and a drag harrow that can be hydraulically raised and worked the surface. The drag harrow would drag debris and I would pull the debris to a common area and then lift the harrow for the trash to fall to the ground. I did this repeatedly until I had most of the area clean and smooth. I brought in a lime truck and applied lime. A small amount of starter fertilizer was appied. I then broadcasted the seed. Once the seed were up I applied chicken litter. I would have done this at the time the seed were sown but could not get any litter. Had I not had any income from the harvest I would have left the largest stumps and remove them a few years later. Just this week we removed very large red oak stumps on an area that was cut 3 or 4 years ago. The stumps rolled right out saving a lot of work and expense.



"As far as the silvopasture, the easiest area to understand / conceptualize for me is in the strip technique. i.e. where the trees are in rows (usually 2 rows) sepparated by 40 feet or so of pasture. This is what I will be doing in the area in the back of the propery - where there is currently baby pine. I expect I will also be doing this on the "natural pine", though it may be a bit harder to get this started because of the mature trees. Only the area in the rows will ever have stumps in it - the strips of pasture will remain pasture for ever."

ArmyDoc, why cannot the tree areas be much wider (5 times) but with a thin tree population and the grassed area very wide (also 5 times) ? The reason that I am hung up on this is the cost to establish and to maintain so many narrow stips.



"For the area with the baby trees, I don't see any stumps (it was cleared by forest fire ~3 years ago could they be gone that fast? or just burried when they cleared the area?) The biggest problem is all the deadwood up there. I don't know what to do about it. I guess I could chip the bigger stuff, and disc the smaller stuff under?"

A root rake on a dozer can clean this area very inexpensively. 

"In the natural pine areas, there would be stumps... You had suggested cutting the trees flush, letting the stumps rot in place, and going back in 2-3 years and cherry picking them out with a track hoe or back hoe. Wouldn't this still work? I'm not sure why after stump removal you couldn't harrow or do what ever other ground prep you wanted between rows of trees... I guess you'd need to stay a certain distance from their roots."

Yes what we earlier discussed will work in the pastured area. After seeing the pic of this area, where the trees remain you will need to do nothing.

"In the areas where the trees are being thinned, but not to rows, the trees will be on a grid with about 20-25 feet apart. If it werent for the stumps, I could just run a harrow down between the trees... Not sure what to do with the stumps, but after 2- 3 years, couldn't I pull them as you suggested and then smooth it out by running a harrow between the trees? I was thinking, if I got the back 20 going (no stumps that I can see) then I would have a bit of time for the stumps to rot in the other areas. Then I could pull them, and try to get the ground prepped better."

I have no inputs at this time on the above.



"As for what to plant, ultimately I was planning on planting a combination of fesque, bahia and crimson clover. (I am open to suggestions for other combinations). I have thought about trying to brodcast some winter rye up there now... but don't know if it would be worthwhile / what site prep would be needed. "


I have no experience with bahia. As for the fescue and crimson I have used them a lot. I bought 1100 lbs of crimson this Fall to sow to improve some land for a neighbor. I over seeded over a 1000 lbs of fescue on my pastures due to the drought damage. The only reason that I would sow rye grain/cereal rye is to control erosion over the Winter.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> "ArmyDoc, why cannot the tree areas be much wider (5 times) but with a thin tree population and the grassed area very wide (also 5 times) ? The reason that I am hung up on this is the cost to establish and to maintain so many narrow stips.


Essentially you're asking why not run conventional forest alternating with conventional pasture. You could certainly do that, but you do lose some of the benefits of the silvopasture set up. As I understand it, the main draw back is you lose the shade/cooling aspect so the pasture is hotter. The cattle will move to the shade when hot, rather than spread out, which can cause uneven grazing of the pasture and uneven manuer dumping. Also, you lose the extended growing season that comes from growing under partial shade. You would also lose some of the "fertilization" benefits from growing legumes under the trees. You would increase over-all timber vollume, but decrease the quality of the timber, as silvo-pasture focuses on growing quality saw & veneer lumber.

Why is the cost higher to maintain narrow strips, as opposed to wider pastures? I would think the cost would be roughly the same for a given amount of pasture, whether it was in strips or in one block.


If I did convert a large section of the natural pine to pasture, the timber sale probably wouldnt bring in enough money to hire a dozer to clear the whole area and plant pasture. There's not a lot of timber value in that portion of the land (maybe $15,000? for the whole 60 acres) compared to the established pine. How would you establish pasture if you couldn't remove the stumps? 

You mentioned cutting them flush with the ground (or as low as possible) and letting them rot for 2-3 years before going back to pull them. Do you need wait until you pull them to establish forage, and just bush-hog the area to keep the brush down in the mean time? Or is there a way to get some forage started sooner?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Grazing of cattle during the heat of the day is misunderstood IMO. In two 45 minute periods of the day cattle can consume the forage they need if they are on good pasture. I want my cattle to loaf during the heat. As for uneven grazing that is for the manager of the rotational grazing to correct. The forage allocated should match the need of the cattle for the time period set. Properly done and the cattle will consume the grass rather uniformly and the manure will be distributed accordingly. I will agree that the shade/cooling will be reduced. However, the tree roots will not be undermining the forages as their roots will not reach as far into the pasture area provided the pastured areas are wider.

Maintaining narrow strips will IMO create more difficulty due to the damage done to existing trees when clearing the open areas. Dozer work done in in confined areas requires a lot more concentration by the operator. Such things as spreading fertilizer or lime can be a problem based on the spreading width of the equipment. Trees are always dropping limbs and if you wanted to bush hog or mow for hay that debris has to be dealt with. If the open area is say 40 feet and the bush hog can cut 10 feet one would initially think 4 passes would get the 40 width clipped. In reality the best you could do is to clip 38 feet as clearance of the trees to prevent damage to the trees would be essential. However in the real world the operator would do good to get 36 feet clipped without skipped areas due to overlapping. With a 12 ft wide harrow used to distribute manure in three passes the with a little overlapping would create a worked 34 ft wide area and another trip would need to be made just to work a few feet. This would be a waste of time and fuel.

The natural pine area has much larger trees that I initially realized. I would want those stumps removed. I would reduce the area prepared to match my budget. Once you determine that you want to be in the cattle business for certain you can clear a few acres each year until the size of the pasture matches your needs. I had rather have money spent on improving my farm than to pass the profits from the enterprise wasted by the government when rendered as taxes. You have past experience on dozer operation, have you ever considered buying one? During the depression we are in, earth moving machinery is about 1/2 what they were. 

If I did not remove the stumps I would insist whomever cuts the property cut ALL the trees as close as possible to the ground. I would then hire a drum chopper pulled over the entire area and I would broadcast grass seed over the total area. and I would conventionally graze for a couple of years. Most of the trash will rot and what does not rot you can pile with your tractor that you are going to buy. The cattle will control most of the trees that try to sprout and spread their manure as they go.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Agmantoo.

Unfortunately, I'm cash poor at this point (finally land rich cash poor! I guess I'm still new enough into the process that that feels like a good thing...) Anyhow, I was planning to put any money from clearing in to the cost of the tractor and implements. I can probably afford to hire the drum chipper/chopper though. That was also recommended by the forester for clearing the fire break/perimeter around the property.

I didn't realize the disc harrow and bush-hog needed to be so big. Most of the ones I was looking at were 5 to 6ft wide. I thought I might need to go up to 7 or 8ft wide because you mentioned they should be wider than the tractor. (haven't seen any that big though) How powerful a tractor do you need to pull one of these? Where do you find them for sale?

Speaking of tractors and implements, currently I'm looking in the 50 to 75 hp range. Maybe I should be looking at 75hp minimum? Most of the ones I'm seeing on Craigs list are small (25-35hp) but some are 45-55. These run $12,000 to 15,000. Which, unfortunately is about all I can afford. A friend said I should stay away from Craigs list and look on ebay, but I haven't really had time to do that yet.


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## mrpink (Jun 29, 2008)

for tractors I would look in the farmers bulletin. there is two jd 3020's listed in todays. one for 1 for $4000 with a 6 ft mower and one restored for $6500. these are older but rated at 70 hp pto. a ford 8000 1970 mdl for $8500 that is pto rated at 105 hp. thats just a few I saw right off for an example.

greg


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Let me suggest somewhat of an alternative on the strips then we will discuss the tractor.

I was out today and the weather was great. I kept thinking about your pic of the natural pines and the size of them. Obviously you would be way ahead if you could incorporate the larger trees in the silvopasture venture. Here is my budget approach for your consideration. Grid off the entire natural pine area. Designate the open strips and the tree strips. Have every tree in the tree area that you want to keep painted at the base and at breast height. Use quality exterior house paint. This will let the logger and you know that the correct trees were harvested. The logger should leave those painted at breast height and you should not see any paint on the base (stump area) of cut trees if things go right. Have the strips clear cut of all trees as close to the ground as feasible. Broadcast seed the open areas with little or no preparation and get some cattle once the grass starts to grow. The cattle will prevent the saplings and tree stump sprouts suppressed (notice there is no trash growing under the trees where the cattle controlled the growth) and distribute their manure to aid in establishing forage. You will need your perimeter fence in place and some method of partitioning the acreage. It will take a few years before you can start rotational grazing in a true manner. You can add clover seed to the mineral/salt supplement fed to the cattle and they will spread the seed. The cattle can "walk" the grass seed in to the soil for good germination. Here is another pic of my strips. Just envision that your open area will be narrower and that the trees in the pic would be a lot less in number. Your thoughts?









With the acreage you have you need a tractor to match. 75 HP would be nice and with a Bush Hog to match. I realize that you have recommendations for a front end loader. Tell me where you would use it. My tractor with a FEL sits idle most of the year. It is just another machine to keep the battery charged. I truly dislike using a tractor for other task and have the FEL on it. A readily detachable FEL will just put added money to the purchase. I can buy a used skidsteer for what a FEL option would cost. You need to watch for auctions where a person is retiring or an estate is being sold and you need to have a mechanic lined up to go before the auction to determine if the tractor is mechanically sound. For me, I want the hours to be low so that I can reasonably expect the machine to be reliable for some time to come. IMO it is cheaper to spend the money on a low hour tractor than to spend the money on parts and labor and tires. The last tractor tire I bought was $1700 for one.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Agmantoo,

What you describe is essentially what I had hoped would work for converting the natural pine acreage into some usable pasture. That area is just barely chip and saw size (and many almost but not quite there yet), so by clearing it all, leaving the largest trees, I suspect I will break even, and maybe make a little bit, if I combine it with thinning the other areas that are ready for thinning. But there won't be a lot left for bulldozing etc.

If I can clear it and still have it convert to pasture a bit more slowly, using just bush hogging and cattle, I should be in good shape. Then, if the silvo pasture concept doesn't work, in 5 to 10 years the trees will be large enough to be worth harvesting as saw lumber at a good price. Meanwhile, I should have enough pasture for a starter herd of a dozen or so cattle after a year or so - or do you think it will take over a year for the pasture to get established? (not necessarily true MIG, but enough to support that many cattle?) By the way, how wide is that strip - looks like 100ft or so?

Regarding tractors, how many hours is low hours? MrPink pointed out a couple of tractors in the $6500-8500 range. (Thanks MrPink!) Looking on ebay and the farmers bulletin, most 75hp tractors in this range have 3500-4500 hours... and are late 1960s to 1970s tractors. That is 40+ years old. As you know, I'm not a mechanic...

Theres one MF 1085 (~1986) with a 10ft bush-hog for $13,000 that looks promising. But its still 25 years old, and in KY - a bit of a drive from here. I guess I'll have to keep my eye out on the farmers bulletin and ebay. Where would I find out about estate sales to watch out for those types of situations?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Regarding FEL... I'm not married to the idea, especially with a larger tractor. I think the people who recommended it are using small 25hp tractors to help with chores etc. A skid steer would work great for that... But that second purchase of equipment is a lower priority.

My priorities are:
1) finalize plans
2) Get land cut
3) Get tractor and bush hog (roughly same time as land cut)
4) Get pasture seeded
5) Get home built
6) Get perimeter fencing done (roughly same time as home completed)
7) Cross fencing and handling corral and then cattle purchase

What else am I missing?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

My sequence would be

My priorities would be:
1) finalize plans
2) Get trees cut and perimeter cleared for fence and house site
3) Drum chop so debris will start to rot and build perimeter fence
4) Put road in to house site, road needs time to stabilize before heavy use
5) Start the house
6) Sept 2011 prepare to seed pasture, have some type of tractor, maybe one to own temporarily. Always be searching for the bargain tractor/bushhog. 
7) Spring 2012 finish house
8) get Bush Hog
9) Later Summer 2012 buy a few thin cattle to fatten, not the 
broodstock, the trash that is trying to grow has to be suppressed.
10) Fall 2012Cross fencing and handling corral 
11) Dec 2012 Sell the cattle and buy brood stock
13) Jan /Feb buy the brood stock
14) Enjoy


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I have 50 acres listed with the state (OH) as timber farm. I am required to keep livestock out of the forest. They say livestock will kill the next generation of timber. I have to cut the grapevines to open the canopy more so these seedlings can grow. I originally ran goats in the woods. They did great. But I had to switch from county to state as a tax relief. The county said I have to have 10 acres tilled before a timber farm can be claimed. I don't have 10 tillable acres... so I had to go through the state. The state's rules are very specific and the #1 is No livestock in the forest. Good luck with your venture


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

blaineiac

It seems that whether cattle harm or help the trees is up for debate. I had two different foresters on my place a while back. One stated that the cattle were harming the roots of the trees and the other was asked if he observed any negative effects from what I am doing. His reply was that the trees were healthy.

There recently was an article in a major agriculture magazine promoting running cattle with pine trees. I wish I knew where the real answer is.

Here is a pic of some of my hardwoods that the animals have had access to for more than 12 years.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

blaineiac said:


> I have 50 acres listed with the state (OH) as timber farm. I am required to keep livestock out of the forest. They say livestock will kill the next generation of timber. I have to cut the grapevines to open the canopy more so these seedlings can grow. I originally ran goats in the woods. They did great. But I had to switch from county to state as a tax relief. The county said I have to have 10 acres tilled before a timber farm can be claimed. I don't have 10 tillable acres... so I had to go through the state. The state's rules are very specific and the #1 is No livestock in the forest. Good luck with your venture


Interesting regulation. Silvopasture has been around in other parts of the world for many, many years (from what I've read) but is relatively new in the US (last 30 years or so). I posted several links at the start of this thread that have many articles with pictures. Here's a link to a recent webinar they had this month: http://www.forestrywebinars.net/webinars/silvopasture

They seem to feel it works pretty well for them, with incomes that exceed timber or pasture alone. Most of what I've read applies to pine forest. Up north, the forests are deciduous. Is it possible these trees are more at risk due to a shallowere root system? Several articles mention that the trees should have deep roots, so as not to compete directly with the forage. Perhaps so as to not be injured by cattles hooves also? 

Most of what I've read on deciduous silvopasture relates to black walnut and black locust trees planted in or with pasture rather than native timber forest. That said, here's an article on hardwood silvopasture that specifically discusses its applicablity in the hardwood states of which Ohio is one. It was published in 2004.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h59514480r110657/fulltext.pdf

Of course this doesn't help you much if you are using state lands, and they prohibit the practice. You might ask the Ohio state forestry service what they think of the USDA Agroforestry recommendations  Here's the July 2010 edition:

http://www.unl.edu/nac/insideagroforestry//vol18issue1.pdf


Hope this helps.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Thought I'd give everyone and update.

So, I met with the forester and the state NRCS people, and I think we have developed a reasonable plan.

The first step will be a controlled burn in the next month or so to clear out the underbrush, deadwood etc. There is a fair amount of brush etc and it has been several years since the last prescribed burn. This will also be needed before the various areas can be thinned. This is the area we plan to burn marked in orange: 










After the burn, I will begin to establish a row based silvopasture in the upper part of the property. That area is currently planted in ~2 year old pine. It's also overgrown with brush, but too young to burn to clear it. I've looked into several options, but it seems cheapest to have them run a mulching head through it to clear out all the brush, open up the strips of pasture, and also clear the brush around the baby trees. I'm hoping to get this done for a couple of hundred dollars an acre - much less than what they quoted for conventional clearing.

Hopefully, we can complete this in the next month or two also, so we can plant bahia grass in March/April. Currently I am planning on tifton #9 bahia, but I've also been reading about Tifqwik which is supposed to be better, but is a lot more expensive seed. Anyone have any experience with either of these?

That will be about it for me this year. The rest will be up to the logging company that wins the bid. They will be bidding on thinning the '94 long leaf pine in the front to ~125 TPA, thinning the '79 pine in the center to 48 TPA, and clearing the ~10-15 acres to the left of the main road currently in Natural pine. The will have 12 months to complete it.

This will give me two more areas to plant next spring. In the '79 pine, there should be enough light at 48 TPA (~30ft between trees) that we should be able to get bahia established for pasture. They call this "block planting" silvopasture. They recommend thinning to a Basal Surface Area of 40, and then re-thinning when it reaches 60. We estimate 48 TPA will give me slightly less than a BSA of 40. In 5 to 7 years, we can thin again, with a final clearing in ~15 years. At that point I'll plant long leaf in a row based system.

In the cleared area, north of the '79 pine, and west of the road, we will plant more row based silvopasture in the area cleared, this time in long leaf and bahia. I'm going to try a 10x10 spacing with three staggered rows, separated by a strip of pasture ~40 ft wide. This will give me a total of 30-35 acres which should be ready for cattle in 5 to 7 years (once the trees are big enough). I marked this area in blue on the picture.










We hope to break ground on the house about 18 months from now, in the 4 acre area shown in red. 

With any luck, we will end up with about 35-40 acres of silvopasture north of the house, and after 5 to 7 years an additionaly 35 acres of row based silvopasture north of that. We'll start working on the natural pine at that point, and lastly on the front long-leaf, to provide 4 areas of different maturities. This should provide a timber harvest every 5 years or so, and be a self-sustaining system.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Agmantoo
That last picture you posted of your forest...Do the cows keep it that nicely cleared ..it looks like a park..or do you have to do labor intensive upkeep?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

ArmyDoc said:


> Currently I am planning on tifton #9 bahia, but I've also been reading about Tifqwik which is supposed to be better, but is a lot more expensive seed. Anyone have any experience with either of these?


Anyone?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lamoncha lover

The cattle keep the area as you see it. I do remove a little firewood, mostly dead trees, from time to time.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

ArmyDoc

As the extension agent which he would plant, not what he would recommend. There could be two answers.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Thought I'd give everyone and update.

We did the controlled burn to clear underbrush, deadwood etc. I have a contract to thin the '94 LL Pine (upfront), clear the area for the homesite (4acres in center) and clear the lower partion of the area in blue. I'm going be planting longleaf in the cleared area of blue, in a silvopasture pattern. I'll bushhog the baby pines in to the same silvopasture pattern. This will give me 40 acres to manage this way - about 30 of which will be pasture, and 10 in forest. 

Hopefully, we can complete this in the next month or two... They were supposed to do it last month, but got delayed by issues at the mill. Technically they have 12 months to comeplete the harvest, so I guess I can't complain. I was going to plant bahia in the back after they cleared, but it maybe to late for that. I have heard you can plant Red River crab grass later in the season, so that may be an option. 

That will be about it for me this year. We've decided to put off building for few years. Will give me time to get the land paid down a bit, and come up with a bigger down payment for the house. It will also give the pasture a while to get established, and time for me to get the perimeter fences up.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Cross posting this from the rotational grazing thread:



CesumPec said:


> I would greatly appreciate any advice you may have on setting up my farm. It's 168 acres, very poor sandy soil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not Agmantoo, but I've been doing a fair amount of work towards converting our timber to silvopasture, so maybe I can help/make some suggestions too. I can't see the picture here at work, but I will take a look at it when I get home.

Regarding the conversion to silvopasture, several questions:

1)What is your current stocking - how old, howmany TPA etc?

2)Second, what pattern is your timber going to be cut to when converting to silvopasture- Block pattern, or 2 rows sepparated by 40ft of pasture, something else? If you are cutting in rows, try to orient your rows east to west to improve the sun availblility to the pasture.


3)What forage are you planning? You are too far south for fescue. Have you considered bahia grass and crimson clover? They are supposed to do well in a southern silvopasture setting.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

CesumPec said:


> 1. where the longleaf pine will be converted to silvopasture it is about 25 years old. The trees will be sold for pulp at about $8 - 9 /ton. There are several plots (about 25 acres worth) of older / larger trees that won't get touched because the nearest ply mill closed last Novemeber for lack of demand.
> 
> The longleaf is undersized for its age due to a lack of any serious management in that time. It was burned twice as best the rangers / foresters could guess. I've come in and mowed everything in the last year to cut down on competition from oaks, plums, and brush and to give the natural grasses a chance to grow.
> 
> I don't know what "TPA" means. Most of the acreage is planted near perfect east-west but about 20 acres were planted north-south. There doesn't seem to be a difference in size. trees were planted generally every ft in rows 8 ft wide.


I was wondering why the Longleaf was only pulp at 25 years&#8230; usually it's pulp at 15-20 years, and chip and saw, or even saw lumber by 25. Do you have a solid contract on the thinning? If so, you did well on the price. Pulp is only $5.50 a ton here. Timber market is poor right now.

TPA stands for "Trees Per Acre". Here's a chart you can use to look it up: Number of Trees per Acre by Spacing

I'm going to look at your drawing a little longer before I say anything else about thinning patterns. Can you tell me where the older / larger trees are? Or are they intermingled with the smaller pines?



CesumPec said:


> 2. pattern of timber cut is undetermined as of now. Where buildings and roads will go obviously means some small clear cuts. One forester suggested keep 2 rows, cut 3. But another suggested it would be better to be more selective and keep everything above 8 inches and forget about rows. I'm not sure how that would work for pasture improvement.


What are your goals? Timber, pasture, silvopasture, a pretty place to live and raise some livestock, or something else? (They don't have to be mutually exclusive, but knowing your priorities will help you decide what to do.) 

Here's a great site to learn more about silvopasture: Silvopasture: Establishment and management principles for pine forests in the Southeastern United States 
and a good video by someone who is doing it: Cover Your Assets/Silvopasture- A Successful Alternative &mdash; Forestry Videos




CesumPec said:


> 3. forage = perennial peanut, for those unfamiliar it is a legume, a Brazillian import for hot weather climes. It doesn't produce a peanut as we know it but it is great for soil building, high in nutrition and protein, and at the feed store today I was told it is selling for $13.50 / sq bale. Will also have bahia because it is already naturally occurring on the property and seems to do well where it can get enough sun.


Sounds reasonable. Bahia grass is what I've heard recommended for silvopasture in the southeast/Florida. I have no knowledge/experience perennial peanut, but have heard of it. We were planning on using Crimson Clover to increase nitrogen in the soil. Sounds like you are doing the same thing with the peanut.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

>>I was wondering why the Longleaf was only pulp at 25 yearsâ¦ usually it's pulp at 15-20 years, and chip and saw, or even saw lumber by 25.<<

Not absolutely certain except that it has received too little burning, fertilizer, and water. I'm on a sand hill that is very dry and retains no ground moisture.

>>Do you have a solid contract on the thinning?<<

Out for bid, was just mentioning the price I've seen published by U of F.

>>TPA stands for "Trees Per Acre". Here's a chart you can use to look it up: Number of Trees per Acre by Spacing<<

Thanks, based on already thinned spots and 6x8 spacing, probably about 400 - 500/ac on average.

>> Can you tell me where the older / larger trees are? Or are they intermingled with the smaller pines?<<

larger older trees, a mix of slash and longleaf, are in 7 acres in the SW corner, intermixed with the northwest 40 acre jungle so only about 50 TPA in that zone, and in about 15 - 20 acres along the north-eastern boundary near the wetlands. Some of them might be too difficult to get to, not sure.


>>What are your goals? Timber, pasture, silvopasture, a pretty place to live and raise some livestock, or something else? (They don't have to be mutually exclusive, but knowing your priorities will help you decide what to do.) <<

pretty place to live that still produces some supplemental income from cattle, trees, horse boarding, and possibly some other farming operations. I feel like I can tackle the cattle and horses from the start and will add other farm ops as time, skills, and marketing allow. Will have some pigs, maybe a few goats for personal use. The orchard and garden should be able to produce enough for a farmers market but I'm not counting on that for any real income. My wife is a school teacher and would like to host girl/boy scout events and possibly even summer camp type activities. She has the experience and patience to be very good at that. Me not so much.

>>We were planning on using Crimson Clover to increase nitrogen in the soil. Sounds like you are doing the same thing with the peanut.<<

Correct and the peanut has the added benefit of adding perhaps an inch deep of thick soil holding root mass each year. Probably not that much if grazed but anything I can do to build organic matter holding soil is highly desired and needed. 

thanks for the links and assistance


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Actually, what I meant was I was wondering why they were so small until you mentioned they were planted every foot in 8ft rows. That's way over crowded for a 25 year old tree. Are some areas this thick, and others 6x8?

I'm still new to the forestry / silvopasture game, so you should check anything I say with a forrester, but I'm happy to relay what I've read and what my forrester has told me.

You're goals are pretty much inline with mine. I have another source of income, so my goals are to have a place I can live that I want to live in, that my wife wants to live in, and that will stustain itself, and ultimately pay for it's own expansion/improvements. So hopefully I can provide some tips that will help you on your journey. I'm synthesizing from several different areas, so if I am not clear, just ask me.

As far as silvopasture patterns, there are two basic themes - block planting, where the trees are far enough apart that there is about 50% canopy coverage, to allow sunlight to get to the forest floor. Some tree types are better for this than others - thankfully for you longleaf pine is one of them!

The other pattern consists rows of trees alternating with alleys of pasture. Two rows seems to be preferred (double the trees of single rows, with no downside to tree growth, where as 3+ rows causes the center rows not do do as well as the outer rows)

I think the biggest difference is that it is easier to MIG/Rotationally graze strips of pasture than block plantings of trees. Both are better looking (in my opinion) than forrest or pasture alone. 

I've read both that silvopasture increases and decreases forage production. Presumbably this depends on the amount of tree cover, type of forage etc. I think it makes sense to count on less production per day, but one known benefit is a longer growing season (due to shade in the hot months and protection from cold winds in cold months) In anycase, my plan is to start small and grow as I learn... better to have too much forage than not enough!

From a timber standpoint, generally you thin to the desired level, by cutting the worst trees and leaving the biggest and best (to hopefully get bigger and better). It's been a while, but if I remember right, you want to thin to a canopy of 35-40%, and re-thin when it gets to about 60%. (more than 60% and forrage growth takes a noze dive). 

This maybe a good option for you, if have large trees mixed in with the smaller ones. If they are more uniform, I would just thin the rows to the desired spacing, and cleare alleys between sets of 2 rows. 

One thing you will have to deal with is stumps. I've decided to flush cut and let mine rot in place... Pines aren't like hardwoods. They do rot a way with time, and I checked into having a forrestry muching head brought in to much them. WAY to expensive (~$2500/acre). Dozer and clearing was similar. I've got more time than money, so that solved that problem.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

>>Actually, what I meant was I was wondering why they were so small until you mentioned they were planted every foot in 8ft rows. That's way over crowded for a 25 year old tree. Are some areas this thick, and others 6x8?<<

Sorry, error somewhere. Pines are planted every 6 ft in 8 ft rows. Due perhaps to a prior harvest, or competition from oak, plum, and orange, some areas are considerably thinner than 6 x 8.

>>You're goals are pretty much inline with mine. <<

One goal I forgot to mention is wildlife attraction. I have hawks, turkey, deer, and wild pig a plenty. Would like to encourage all but the latter and in addition have bird and butterfly friendly landscaping. 

>>As far as silvopasture patterns,... rows of trees alternating with alleys of pasture.<<

That's what I've seen around the state and it has usually been rich looking grass and aesthetically pleasing as well.

>> if I remember right, you want to thin to a canopy of 35-40%, <<

Which fits with the keep 2 rows, harvest 3 pattern. But I'll see what the forester has to say.

>>One thing you will have to deal with is stumps. <<

I might let some rot but I've read that LL rots very slowly. I will have a loader/backhoe (looking at what appears to be a good deal tomorrow) and as time permits will dig the stumps out. The house site, orchard and garden take priority for hoe time. After considering several alternatives, the used construction type loader/hoe and a ~50HP tractor seem to be the best solution for all that we want to do. Considered dozer rental vs full service vs purchased loader/hoe and over the long haul it seems having my own equipment will be better because clearing trees, stumps, and trenching irrigation lines will not be a one time event.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Silvopasture is definitely associated with improved wildlife attraction compared to either forrest or pasture alone. The original long leaf forest was a "savannah" patern due to frequent forrest fires, which cleared the brush and favored a grass and pine ecology. There are sometimes grant programs for re-establishing this, which you might want to check into.

I prefer the row/alley system, but block plantings look nice too. (I have a web site that shows some at ~ 125 - 175 TPA at home...I'll try to find you tonight.) This would be amenable to a selective thinning, preserving your best trees for future harvest, rather than only cutting/preserving entire rows, regardless of content. 

For our property, I'm going with the row system for the baby pines (in the back) because it's easy to convert (just mow down the trees you don't want), but thinning the existing older trees (up front) in a block pattern. I'll let you know which is better in about 15 years... 

If you have the equipment and time, clearing is much less of an issue. Agmantoo said he has left stumps for a couple of years for the roots to rot, then pulled the residual stumps with a track loader. This reduces the disturbance to soil than doing it when they are cut fresh. This seems like a nice compromise to me. In time, I may be able to afford both a trackloader or back hoe and a tractor, but for now I'm just looking for a 50-75hp tractor.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

put in an offer today on a 98 JD 310 loader/hoe. Not sure if it is just buyer's remorse or what but I'm not sure I've gotten a good deal. 

Have also started in with Florida's Stewardship program. Application is in process and will get me entry into grants for LL maintenance, e.g. last year they would have paid me $25 / ac for the mowing I did. That's not great income but it would have been a nice bit of income to offset diesel costs and tractor wear and tear.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

CesumPec,

I need to get a better idea of the scale of your drawing in order to make any suggestions. You mentioned that the northwestern square is about 40 acres. So I'm guessing that it is about 1300 feet across, and the western boarder of the property is about 2600 feet across. Is this about right?

Second, I need to know where the pines you are thinning are located. Is it basically the eastern third and southern half of the property(everything but the north western corner) that is in pine? 

Also, what is the box you have drawn in front of the house area - is that the barn/horse paddocks?

If you can answer those questions, I'll try to give some more specific suggestions. But meanwhile, There are two things that strike me at the moment. First, if my measurements are correct, your garden is a LONG way from the house (over 1500 ft). The second thing is concerning your orchard. You mentioned the prior owneres orchard died in frost... you have it located on a north facing slope. If you put it on a south facing slope it will be warmer... and that might protect it against frost more..


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

>>I need to get a better idea of the scale of your drawing in order to make any suggestions. You mentioned that the northwestern square is about 40 acres. So I'm guessing that it is about 1300 feet across, and the western boarder of the property is about 2600 feet across. Is this about right?<<

Correct

>>Second, I need to know where the pines you are thinning are located. <<

Apologies for the kindergarten quality art (injured right hand and no skill with the left), but the longleaf to be thinned are the areas marked "LL". National Forest = NF, The green blobs are old growth mixes of pines and oaks and while the satellite imagery shows other areas of oaks, those other areas have non-merchantable sized trees within the next 25 years. The red line is a rough approximation of the property boundary, orange lines are electric. The electric on the SW corner is a long haul line and not available for my use. The electric in the center of the property ends near the well and future buildings. 

>>Also, what is the box you have drawn in front of the house area - is that the barn/horse paddocks?<<

Yes. Unfortunately that means cutting quite a few trees, but after debating building sites for a year, that's the best solution we have been able to come up with.

>>your garden is a LONG way from the house (over 1500 ft). <<

which is both a positive and negative. Because the soil is so poor and full of parasitic nematodes, garden areas have to be rotated each year. So after lots of reading, my plan is a 4 yr rotation of hogs, garden, cover crop, cover crop. So ease of getting to the garden is poor but distance between my and pig poo is good.

>> The second thing is concerning your orchard. You mentioned the prior owneres orchard died in frost... you have it located on a north facing slope. If you put it on a south facing slope it will be warmer... and that might protect it against frost more..<<

A fair point but that was in the early 80s and it was all orange. Since then UF has made great strides with new cold resistant citrus and low chill hour fruits such as apple, peach, apricot, plum, pear, cherry and a few others. As my aim is more towards the more traditionally northern fruits that need chill hours, the north slope works for me. I plan to try a few citrus in the orchard area and somewhere nearer the house, but nothing on a commercial scale. So a hard frost might be deprive me of a home grown, fresh squeezed breakfast beverage, but it won't hurt my income.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Ok, that helps a lot. 

I'll try to put together something that may work for you tonight, and post it for you before I go to bed.

Couple more questions... Do you know which way is the prevaling wind? Have you thought any more about if you want row and alley pattern silvopasture, or a block planting style? If you haven't seen pictures of the block pattern, here is a link to a powerpoint that shows both. 

http://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/environment_and_recreation/forestry/pdf/IntroSilvopasture.pdf

There's another one, but I can't find it.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Wind? I've found sources that say primarily west to east but others that say northerly in winter and southerly in summer, and yet another that says winds are erratic due to the proximity of the gulf and ocean. My limited personal experience says erratic. 

Aesthetically I prefer row/alley and I haven't found any source that says block is better. 

Thanks for the help.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

OK, here are some thoughts.










I did three sections, drawn with east west rows. If you wanted to try block plantings, you could do that in one section, it's up to you.

1) I would have them cut the trees in east-west strips - 2 rows of trees followed by ~ 40 ft of pasture (unless you want to do block plantings instead). 
2) I would put permanent fence around this whole section, and put a good electric wire inside it. On the east side, set it back however far from the house you want to keep the cows away.
3) I would make an access alley along the north side to move cows between sections, and put your road in it to get back there.
4) I would make another access alley going between each section, such that each section is not more than 700ft wide - About in thirds if my calculations are right (my drawing is a little off) I think 600ft would be better, as the cows will have to walk a short way down the access alley to get water, and you want to try and keep the total distance they walk for water under 800ft.
5) the water line should run down the access alleys that go between each section, and the watering points will be in these alleys too, ~ every 2-300 feet depending on how wide the sections are..
6) Your temporary pastures are made by running a temporary electric tape accross the section, parrallel to the trees (most likely betwen the two rows of trees), and be wrapped around the permanent electric lines to charge them.
7) each row of trees should end ~10 to 15 ft before the edge of the section. This way if you want more than one strip of pasture in your temporary paddock, the cattle can get around the trees easily. Also, when moving the cows into the next section, you will just disconnect the tape at the end, and the cows can move past it in to the next portion you want them to graze.
8) you prop up the lines in the alley between sections the way Agmantoo does, to allow the cows access to water in the portion you are grazing, and drop it down to protect it. (agmantoo's posts discuss this)

Couple of things we haven't talked about yet:
1) we haven't set aside a place to sort/load&unload/treat the animals. You might want set a side a 1/2 acre to do this somewhere. I'd say at the end of the east west road, just north of the last section would be a good place.
2) for your initial space/animal estimate, you will need to double the extension agents estimate, to ~8 acres per cow. There won't be as much pasture per acre in silvo pasture, because the trees limit production. Over time, this will probably improve as you manage the forage better, and your pastures improve, but don't short change your animals in the beginning. Better to end up with excess forage than not enough. Still, I'd say you have 50-60 acres or so to work with, I bet you can start off with 6-8 cows, and after the first year decide if you sell all the calves or keep one or two.
3) in a 600 ft wide section, each 40ft strip of pasture will be about 1/2 an acre (actually closer to 1/3, because the edges won't grow as much rass close to the trees) so that can help you estimate how many rows to give the cattle. If the section is about 1300 ft long (like the two on the western side) then you will have about 26 rows per section. If your cattle eate one row per day, then you could rotate through two sections before returning back to the start, giving you ~7 weeks rest between grazings. In the hotter months, they may have to go through the third, smaller section, to give you another 2 weeks or so before starting over. So, if your cows are needing more than a row per day, then you have too many cows.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

wow - extremely helpful, and just why I wanted another set of eyes looking at the problem. I was thinking more along the lines of the access road running besides the planned water line I had drawn. This gives me lots to think consider. 

1. quarantine area - had been considering it on the south-eastern side where the 80 is. but then i have additional water piping problems so I'm going to rethink that one.

2. animals / acre - I'm with you on that. I had planned to start with a few bred cows and a few steers just to get my feet wet. I haven't taken care of cattle since I was a kid spending summers on my uncle's farm so I have lots to learn. And perennial peanut takes 3 years (maybe less with irrigation) to get a firm footing so no need to rush things anyway. After that I'll grow the herd as my skill and grass allow.

Again, thank you. You provided much more than I expected. I wish I didn't have to wait for the loggers to get done so I could jump in on this right away.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

CesumPec said:


> ... I wish I didn't have to wait for the loggers to get done so I could jump in on this right away.


LOL! With you on that one. Bought our place over a year ago, and had hoped to be building our house right now. Things never go quite as planned. 

Don't be terribly surprised if it takes longer than you think/want for the loggers to get started. Logging contracts are generally written such that they have a period of time to do the cutting (to allow for weather etc.) My contract states they have a whole year! They were supposed to start in March, but have still not started yet.

On the bright side, I have found a nice tractor, and I'm going back to get the implements that came with it next Monday.

Best of luck to you, and be sure to post photos of your progress!


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## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

Hey All,

I recently became aware of silvopasture and am excitedly working my way through these posts and other, related material.

I have 17 acres in south GA: 9 acres in 13 year-old slash pine (6' in-, 12' between-row spacing) and 8 acres in bay swamp. I'm considering converting the 9 acres to silvopasture and rotating sheep or goats on it. I have a few questions (not necessarily related to silvopasture) I'm hoping you may be able to address.

I live about 45 minutes from the property and would only be able to realistically visit once a week. Is only once a week on site sufficient with animals on pasture and automatic watering? If not, how often would I need to be there? (The plan is to live there...one day.)

The rows run diagonally from about 30 degrees NW. Is east-west running pasture critical to success? I don't have confidence in myself or the loggers to layout and follow respectively a complex cutting plan to produce east-west pasture.

With 6x12 spacing, would I need to eliminate 2 or 3 rows for 36' or 48' wide pastures? What's the "magic" width ratio of pasture to trees? 36' of pasture to 12' of trees is 3:1 (75%/25%); 48' of pasture to 12' of trees is 4:1 (80%/20%). I haven't found anything in the literature regarding silvopasture and 6x12 spacing.

Regarding the 6' in-row spacing, do I eliminate every other tree now or wait a few years?

Regarding a tractor, what would be an optimum size to maintain (not develop) 9 acres? (I'll probably rent equipment or contract to develop.) With such a small scale operation, is the width of implements as important as it would be for a large scale operation?

Thanks,

Doug


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Hi Doug,

Welcome aboard! I will preface all that I tell you by saying that I am just learning too. I can tell you what I've read, and what I'm doing, but my experience is limited.

1) Regarding living 45 minutes from property and having animals on property. I wouldn't recommend it, but if you are going to do it, you need to invest heavily in you fences. You run a significant liability if they get out and get into your neighbors stuff, or worse, get on to the road. 

The other aspect is that silvopasture really requires Managed Grazing, which means pasture rotation every day or two.

I am in a similar situation. I live ~ 30-40 minutes away from our place, and it will be ~5 years before I can afford to move out there. So what am I doing? I'm trying to get it ready for when I do arrive. It takes time to establish forage and put up fences etc, get a well put in etc. So I'm doing that. I don't think I will have my forages well enough established for animals for a year or two anyhow.

2) From what I have read, E-W rows is optimal, but not mandatory. That said, it isn't hard to shift the rows to east west. I think I posted on how I plan to do that earlier in this thread. If you do a select cut (marking the trees you want kept) you can make the rows go where ever you want.

Speaking of trees - several questions. First, have you found a forester yet? If not, stop, do not pass go and go find one. You'll be happy you did. Second, how big are your trees? (what diameter at chest height, and roughly how tall?) And what kind of trees are they?

3) I don't know that there is a "magic" ratio. Most of what I have read talks about 40ft alleys (pasture) sepparated by 2 rows of trees, generally spaced 4'x8' to 5'x10'. 6'x12 isn't unreasonable. The spacing changes with time too. As the trees mature, you're going to need to thin them. Your forester will help you with determining when to thin.

4) As for a tractor, there are more knowledgeable people on the forum than I. However, I just bought a Massey Ferguson 245. Its a 45 Hp 1976 vintage tractor, that I got for under $5000, including the shop work to get it refurbished. (I could have probably used it as it was and saved even more... but I decided to put the $ into preventive maintenance). At this point, I would go this route again if I had it to do over. You can spend a LOT of money on a tractor. And it is definitely fun, cool etc., but in my opinion not necessary. 

As for size, I doubt you'll need/want more than 45-50hp for the amount of land you have. The bigger the tractor and the wider the implements, the faster you can get work done. But I decided my row spacing was only 10 ft (vs your 12ft) so I didn't want anything wider than 8ft, and ideally closer to 6ft. (6 ft only gives me 2 ft to spare on either side) But I don't really want smaller, because of the increased number of passes in the pasture portion. A 6 ft bush hog is going to take ~ 7 passes to mow a 40 ft wide alley. A 15 ft bat wing would only take 3...but wouldn't fit betwen my trees. Anyhow, that was my thinking.

Best of luck to you.


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## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

ArmyDoc,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Yes, after more research, I concluded once a week on site is insufficient. I have a lot of work to do (thinning, burning, developing pasture, fencing, water) before putting animals on the property. So, by the time the land is ready to support livestock, I hope to be living there. Time will tell.

Regarding the trees, I have slash pine. A couple of years ago, they were 5.7" DBH. So, I assume they're a little over 6" now.

Regarding a forester, I had a GFC forester out. She told me what I had and gave me a basic management plan: thin in 2013-2014; prescribe burn 1-2 years after thinning. Is that the forester you're talking about? She also recommended mowing between rows. Is there other information I need from a forester?

Speaking of prescribed burning, do you know what the GFC charges?

Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it very much.

Best regards,

Doug


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Doug, not sure what is available in your state, but if you are in Florida and get in the forest stewardship program, you can get paid $25/acre to mow once a year. The state will also subsidize precommercial thinning and several other necessary activities. It isn't anything that is going to make you profits but it will cover some of your costs.


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## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

CesumPec,

The property is in southern GA, but just a few miles above the FL line. I wonder if FL would make an exception. ;^)

Thanks for the info.

Doug


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

I just took a mob grazing course taught by Ian Mitchell-Innes and at one point we went to some woods which had been (partly) bale grazed. The bales had been unrolled for the cows and the difference was remarkable, no, _tremendous_! 

Non grazed section: 










Grazed section: 










Cost: fuel to haul the bales to the woods.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

The GFC forester can provide a wealth of helpful information, but I was talking about a forester to help you with your contracts for cutting. I don't know enough about forestry at this point to try and draw up my own contracts. My forester got the bids for me, drew up the contracts, marked the trees and supervised the cutting. He does charge a fee for this (which varies by what is being cut). 

I recommend talking with people in the area to see who is recommended. As with all professions, there are good ones an bad ones. One problem you may have is that the amount of land you have to thin is small, which may make it harder to get someone to come cut. My property was not given priority, as it was only ~40 acres. It has to be profitable for the cutter to move his machine out there and pay the workers to harvest. If you only have a dozen trees, you're going to be paying them (as you would in a subdivision) If you have a couple dozen truck loads, they are going to be paying you. A forester should be able to tell you where you fall in the spectrum. Your GFC forester may be able to advise you on who to hire too.


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## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

ArmyDoc,

will do.

Thank you

*****

Gabriel,

what is bale grazing?

Thank you


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

dheat said:


> Gabriel,
> 
> what is bale grazing?
> 
> Thank you


Setting out bales in the field/woods where you want the nutrients deposited, rather than a dry lot/sacrifice pasture.


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## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

Gabriel,

Interesting. Was grass seed put down first, or is the second picture the sole result of the cattle fertilizing the area?


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

dheat said:


> Gabriel,
> 
> Interesting. Was grass seed put down first, or is the second picture the sole result of the cattle fertilizing the area?


No extra seed was spread, but the hay bale was unrolled, which obviously spread enough seed.


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## arbullet (Oct 19, 2014)

Old post but I'm researching Silvopasture. 

ArmyDoc. Do you have any updates on your Silvopasture?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Still working on it. Three words of advice:
1) It will take longer than you think; be patient
2) You can't get much done unless you are living out there, or are close enough to get out there frequently (weekly or more). We weren't until last July. Have accomplished more in the last year than in the prior 3.
3) Fences first. Water second. Cutting/clearing and planting next, animals last. We did it almost exactly opposite - started with Cutting and clearing and planting, thinking we could get the grass growing and totally underestimating the time needed for the first two. As a consequence, a lot of the work was undone by subsequent overgrowth without animals to keep it down.

So here's where we're at now. I have one small area cleared and in good pasture (knee high - gotta mow it again) I have a larger area cleared, that is not bad, but still has a lot of brush as well as grass. I have the well in. Plan for this winter is to finish fencing the smaller pasture, and get the water lines run. This spring we'll start with a handfull of sheep, and use electric net fencing into the forest areas surrounding the small pasture. 

Next year's major project will be to get a good perimeter fence around the whole property - but that's going to take a while - almost 3 miles of fence after all.

Hope that helps.


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm not doing silvopasture however here are my observations with forest and cattle.

I have 2 properties, both have wooded areas, neither had cattle in the recent past (20+years) so the forests in South Carolina tend to be a tangled mess that is next to impossible to navigate with out a machete.

Like ArmyDoc said - Perimeter Fence first! If you don't have the equipment to blast a channel through the forest it CAN be done by hand - it's just hard and long work.

I perimeter fenced 81 acres - all but about 1,200 feet of it was through the woods. That's almost ArmyDoc's 3 miles of perimeter fence.

I pulled 6 strands of high tensile smooth wire through the woods. At times I would tie it around myself and literally crawl on all 4's to pull that much wire (2500 +/- is the longest straight run. Close to 4,000 feet when I followed the creek side that straight would have been about 2,500 feet. After a few bends even smooth wire get's tough to pull.

If you can get a dozer to clear you a path.

Anyway once your perimeter fence is in cattle will clear a LOT of the underbrush down and make the woods more passable - at least up to their heads/backs.

This is not immediate but over time they clear it out for you to a large extent.

So Perimeter Fence, Water, then you can do Animals. You can always plant the forest if it doesn't exist after - just have to keep the cattle off the new woods - 1 way to do that is to just run electric wire around the wooded sections, a single strand is typically enough on each side of what you want to keep them out of.

Just don't overload with cattle and starve them if you don't have decent pastures, it takes time to build fertility.


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## rosalind (Oct 6, 2014)

Did you find particular types of grasses that grow the best in a forest environment?


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

That really depends on your location. I'm in 7b/8a. In the northern part of my zone fesque would probably work best. But in the southern portion, Bahia is king.


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