# Polebarn, strawbale and loft? Advice needed!



## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

We would like to build a pole barn with a second story aka hayloft. The bottom will be used for some machinery and some stalls/pens. Loft space used for hay storage. We plan on using plastered straw bale type insulation wrap at least on the animal side of the bottom floor.

Particulars are: size 35' by 51' slab with extra wide footings to accommodate the posts and plastered bale wrap outside the posts. We cannot just sink the posts because of the high water table and clay. Posts set 8' on center making them 32' by 48'. Two rows of outside posts 16' high, center row of posts running under the ridgeline 21'. 
As we have our own bandsaw mill and a lot of dead trees to clean up we don't want to go with purchased trusses but use logs and cants/posts that we have on hand or can produce. Standard metal roof planned. No permits required by county due to farm building on agricultural land.

Question 1. How big do the main posts need to be? We have some sound posts from the electric company minus the ends with the creosote on them. some of the posts are up to 16" diameter and I'm thinking overkill and groaning at the thought of getting them in place. With the mill to use we can cut these down to size and make them square if needed.

Question 2. How the heck do you find fasteners to anchor posts that big or where? To date I have been able to find none.

Question 3. We would like to do the roof without pre-made trusses. Rather a post and beam style using purlins and some of our stockpile of logs. I would like to be able to use the extra height gained for hay/straw storage in the loft. We would prefer a gable style roof to match other buildings and because husband hates the gambrel look.

Question 4. We went on using center posts so we would have better support for the loft/second story storage. How would we go about attaching the beams (? by ?) to posts for the second story floor joists? Considering that the posts will go through to the roof. Bolt 2 by 12 (or multiples of whatever size we need) to each side of the posts? Notch them in? I am picturing three rows of posts wrapped with 2 by's looking like posts sticking through the rungs of a ladder (if that makes any sense).

Question 5. Ridgebeam - if we do not have one sound log/pole of sufficient length to span the whole length would it be better to butt join the logs with appropriate fasteners or mill the logs into 2 by's and use those to make up the needed size? Leaning to the second method for ease of getting it up there but not sure what size would be needed.

Since most of the materials we will be using except the roofing metal are from our own land we would rather overbuild than underbuild.

This building will be heated or partially heated by animals, solar gain and a small woodstove if needed. Although we get down to -20C regularly our snow is not the heavy snowball type but the lighter blows across the roads drifting kind.

Skill level - competent farmgirl type that can hammer and saw with both hands but not usually at the same time! Not my first building.

Thanks for any feedback.


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

Old barns were built with similar materials and timberframe style as you have described. However it does require considerable knowledge about the joints needed to construct it.
Perhaps a study of those old barns could supply the ideas needed.
All your questions can be addressed in these old buildings.
As to fasteners I have used steel plate and drilled and bolted where needed.
Perhaps with your mill it may be better to use standard framing to build.the loft and roof structure desired can still be done with this method. 
Good Luck.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

How will you support all that weight of floor on 16' centers (1 row on outside, 1 row down middle). Build the building more of a center barn and 2 leantos with each side of the roof as 1 continuous roofline, 4 rows of posts, 3-12' bays = 36'? Better yet build your own trusses, all open second floor. (Think pole barn on top of 1st floor using your long outside posts). The weak point in this type of building is always how to support the floor. But no foundation needed.
In the end many times it is easier to use dimensional lumber, build first story, then floor, and then second floor, no heavy timbers. Modern post and beam = studded outside walls with sheathing for lateral strength, center posts, floor joists, floor, then second floor. Much easier to keep from racking. But, need a foundation.
So most have gone to a polebarn, square posts and the dreaded second floor attachment issue....James


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## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

barn-apart said:


> However it does require considerable knowledge about the joints needed to construct it. Perhaps a study of those old barns could supply the ideas needed. All your questions can be addressed in these old buildings.


We did consider timberframe and after previous study we could do some of the less complicated joinery but not enough to be confident. And we wanted to use the barn way before we could do the frame ourselves.
Still considering options of just putting up a hayshed 'and' a barn minus the loft.

Thanks


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

Maybe a post and beam would do the job for you. Verticles on reasonable centers with horizontal beams laid on top and butt spliced with simpson straps screwed at the joints. Then lay the joist on top to secure the loft,with more verticle post to the ridge and again fasten with steel and screws, bolts. then rafter the roof. This would eliminate the timberframing complications and still use timbers for the build.
Rick


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## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

jwal10 said:


> How will you support all that weight of floor on 16' centers


Well one possible current plan calls for a row of 8 by 10 framed stalls down the center between the posts. Those walls I believe would help support the second story too. Leaving the unsupported span 11' on each side. 

I am looking at span tables trying to figure out what size the posts, beams and joists would have to be to do what we want. They go up past 16' but I can't seem to put it all together so that it makes sense to me.

I think the best solution would be to keep hubby's opinions of wanting one big barn out of my plans of chickens here, rabbits over there, goats past the chickens, beehouse in the beeyard, ducks and geese by the lake and marsh area, hayshed next to the field and keep the horses and their small barn in thier own field next to the hayshed. I like walking.

Maybe I'll just turn the big barn problem over to him to solve and go on my merry way getting things done. Let him deal with engineers and plans and the headache! But.... this is part of my honest effort to let him have somethings his way. :happy: 
Makes me wonder how (or why) they did it when the top floor of the barn was the house.


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## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

barn-apart said:


> Maybe a post and beam would do the job for you. Verticles on reasonable centers with horizontal beams laid on top and butt spliced with simpson straps screwed at the joints. Then lay the joist on top to secure the loft,with more verticle post to the ridge and again fasten with steel and screws, bolts. then rafter the roof. This would eliminate the timberframing complications and still use timbers for the build.
> Rick


So timberframe without the joinery cuts? Use metal fasteners instead? That works for me. Know where I could peruse some plans? Now back to the same problem giving me a headache. What size reasonable span posts, beams and joists? lol :grit:

Hubby says he likes you already! Me too!

What I really need is one of what I want, 2 hours, a pad of paper, a ladder and a tape measure.


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## mike554 (Jun 9, 2012)

Timber Linx makes a post to foundation hold down system. There is a book by Rob Roy called "Timber Framing For the Rest Of Us". I don't know much about it I've just seen it on Amazon. Timber framing isn't that hard it just takes practice and a lot of sweat.



www.mktimberworks.com


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

Spans can be 12' or more if knee braced and of say 8"x8" or larger. Knee bracing is needed in post and beam and timberframes.
Is the material you have hardwood or softwood? Hardwoods need to be sawn square or they will check deep and spiral to the grain angle. Softwoods can be used round or sawn ,but should be pealed.
I assume you refer to details when asking about plans? I'll see what I can find and post them in a day or so.


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## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

Pine (peeled logs - seasoned) poplar - dead standing, live standing, and cleared logs not peeled felled last summer. 
As for plans details would be awesome thanks.


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## Bob Huntress (Dec 17, 2012)

I tried to send a long reply that detailed how to layout for a gambrel barn roof as well as several of your questions. It wouldn't post. My email is [email protected] if you still want anything.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

Here's a CD from an eBay seller I've recently noticed. Looks like a bunch of detailed plans for barns but from the early 1900s (so no copyright, I suppose). Might be perfect for some but I wonder if absence of modern materials would be a problem. Anyway:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BARN-PLANS-...594?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item53f1b49e2a

The seller has some other interesting collections like firearms manuals, house plans, horse books, too.


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## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks for the link. Will check it out.


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## Packerman (Dec 22, 2012)

The North Dakota state university has some free plans you can print out from years ago on how they did things "the old fashioned way". There are barn plans (#5166 & 5167) that show how things need to be framed up with sizes and spacing of the wood members for a barn perhaps like you'd build. The website is www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension-aben/. Click on building plans and then click beef. There are LOTS of plans for doing many things the old fashioned way.


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## Monica33 (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks to all for the links!


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