# Bread question



## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

I got a KitchenAid mixer for Christmas. Yesterday I tried to make some oatmeal bread from a recipe I got on the King Arthur site and it was a disaster. Next I tried the recipe that I always use in my bread machine. It didn't turn out so well either. So my question is: Can I use the same recipes that I used in my machine? Is there something I should know about making bread in the mixer?
TIA
Mickey


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

A Kitchen Aid mixer is just a mixer, it's not a bread machine. You can use the dough hook to knead the dough, but I always finish the dough by hand. There's really only one recipe I use the Kitchen Aid dough hook for, and that's a cheddar cheese bread. I suppose a person CAN over work the dough with the dough hook, but usually yeast doughs can take it. What was the disaster? Maybe if you tell us what the problems were, we could help? In my humble opinion, Kitchen Aid mixers are highly over-rated (and over priced). I use it only for things like angel food cakes, sponge cakes, and just a handful of other recipes. For breads, a nice big bowl, a wooden spoon, hand mixing and hand kneading gives excellent results every time.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

In the first recipe the dough wouldn't rise at all, so thinking that perhaps the yeast was old I got more out of the freezer and tried my old tried and true recipe that I use in the bread machine; it didn't rise enough either. I did proof the yeast the second time so I know it's good. In both cases I let the mixer knead th edough for 5 minutes, per King Arthur instructions. I'm wondering if that's enough kneading time?
Gosh I'm discouraged after reading your response Upnorthlady. I wanted the KitchenAid especially for bread making so I wouldn't need to keep 2 machines around :-(
Thanks for your help.
Mickey


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## highlandview (Feb 15, 2007)

I do not think my KitchenAid does a good job of kneading the dough. My parents have a Bosch mixer that is more expensive but does an excellent job with bread. I believe Pleasant Valley Grain sells them on the web.


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## FrodoLass (Jan 15, 2007)

Mickey, I use my KA mixer to make bread dough all the time (my bread machine passed away, lol) and have had no problems. I've only used all-purpose white flour though, so don't know anything about other flours. Did you try using one of the dough recipes designed specifically for the KA?


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## praieri winds (Apr 16, 2010)

I made some ww bread the other day I used my hamilton beach with the dough hooks 
I made a sponge as per one person on here instructed me to do there was no trouble with the dough rising I had to do some additional hand kneading to make it smoother but they turned out real nice


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

Gosh, I've used a Kitchen Aid mixer for about thirty years with excellent results. My thought on your bread might be that most of the King Arthur Flour recipes I've used do best with the SAF instant yeast available on their site. They have one for regular breads and one for sweet breads and sourdoughs, both from France. It doesn't need proofing, it gives excellent results, and is a lot cheaper to use than the stuff from the grocery. I keep mine stored in the freezer and put it directly into the Kitchen Aid bowl with the other ingredients.

Another thought is to check the temperature of your liquids. I find that the metal bowl in my KitchenAid sucks about ten degrees out of the liquid in the summer, and a wee bit more in the winter. So I heat to 120 degrees so when I pour it in I'll have 110.

Aren't bread mistakes exasperating?


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Mickey - If your bread doesn't rise, and you did proof the yeast and it seemed fine, perhaps your kitchen is a little on the cool side and it's taking longer for the bread to rise. Breads that use whole wheat flour, rye flour, or oats or mixed grains, can take a really long time to rise in a cool kitchen. I have often taken my bread to a warm place (like in front of the wood stove) or now in my warm basement with the radiant floor heat, or in an oven with a pan of really hot water in there. You mention keeping your yeast in the freezer - I keep mine in the fridge. Maybe the "frozen" yeast is taking a long time to come to room temp and work with your dough. I use Fleishman's yeast that I get from Sam's Club (I don't shop there, but a friend gets it for me at the Sam's Club in Fargo). It comes in two 1-lb vacuum sealed packages and when I open a package I store the rest of it in a large canning jar in the fridge. I do so much baking that 2 lbs of dry yeast last me only about 6 months.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

I went to that King Aurthur bread site and looked up oatmeal bread recipes. Reading the comments after several of the recipes, I see that others have had the same problems with the bread not rising properly. The oatmeal bread I make is very similar in ingredients to the ones listed on the KA site, so I think the problem is with the method. It might just be my opinion, but I really don't care for machine mixing of bread, nor do I care for the method of adding liquids to the flour/yeast mix. I always proof my yeast in a separate bowl, scald the milk (or heat the water), and add the dry ingredients *to* the lukewarm liquids, not the other way around. I bake all the bread we eat, plus I make all our own pizzas and coffeecakes with yeast, and have been baking for over 40 years. I still swear by the method of adding flour to the liquids, not the liquids to the flour as most 'modern' recipes call for. By adding flour to the liquids, you have better control of how much flour you need to add.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

Thanks so much ladies for your help 
The yeast is some that I get from my sil. He owns a restaurant and gets my baking stuff at very good prices. It has always worked very well in my bread machine so I don't think that's my problem, and I did proof the second loaf just to be sure it was still good. Someone mentioned that it might have been too cold coming right from the fridge or freezer, but I've always taken it from the fridge directly to the bread machine with no problems. Also I always set my dough to rise on top of my stove and haven't ever had a problem with that either, so I don't think room or yeast temp was the problem. I suppose it is possible that the mixer bowl was too cold and chilled the dough. I'll be sure to warm the bowl next time or use a bit warmer water. 
I'm going to assume that the problem with the first batch was old yeast, but still wonder why the second loaf didn't rise like it usually does when I mix it up in the bread machine. Does 5 minutes sound like a long enough knead in the mixer? I know the bread machine goes alot longer than that. And what about the crawling up the dough hook thats mentioned in the book? Do any of you experience that? 
Upnorthlady, I've had very good luck mixing my bread dough in the bread machine for years now so I don't think it's a problem with machines. This problem clearly has something to do with the mixer. Not neccesarily that there's anything WRONG with it, just something about the method that I haven't figured out yet.
Highlandview, my dd's bought me the KitchenAid for Christmas so getting another brand is out of the question ;-)
Frodolass, I will try that white bread(GASP!) recipe that came with the machine.
Horseyrider, do you have an oatmeal bread recipe that you make in your KA that you'd be willing to share?
Thanks again gals for trying to help me figure this thing out 
Mickey


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## marinemomtatt (Oct 8, 2006)

A tip about today's KA mixers...rumor has it that they will burn out quickly if using it for kneading bread. They just don't make them like they used to....Like I said Rumor has it, I don't know for a fact as I use my bread machine for kneading for fear of wrecking my beloved kitchen wonder.
I LOVE my Red KA mixer and all her attachments.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

marinemomtatt,
I'd read on here that some folks had problems with their newer machine burning out faster with alot of bread making so I had them get the one with the heavier duty transmission. Don't know if it will make any difference, but it seems like they should do what they're made to do eh?
Mickey


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## MissQueenie (Feb 15, 2006)

Hi Mickey! Just wanted to say that although I am also having a terrible time making bread (just learning), I have had my KA mixer since I was 16 and I love it. Even if you don't like it for making bread, I'm sure you'll love it for making mashed potatoes, cookies, cake batters, whipping cream or egg whites, etc. We received the ice cream making attachment for it as a wedding gift and it makes the most delicious frozen yogurt and ice creams! If it wasn't so dang heavy, I'd be tempted to grab my KA if the house ever caught fire! It's pretty awesome.


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

Mickey said:


> Horseyrider, do you have an oatmeal bread recipe that you make in your KA that you'd be willing to share?
> Thanks again gals for trying to help me figure this thing out
> Mickey


Sure! This is one that I came up with. It's chewy and hearty, yet just fine for slicing for sandwiches. I don't usually write my recipes down, so bear with me; but I'll try and explain as I go.

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Oatmeal, Milk, and Honey Bread

1 3/4 cups water 
1T instant yeast (I use SAF)
1 egg, room temperature
3-4 T honey
4T buttermilk powder
1 scant T salt
2-3 T butter, room temperature
5-6 cups KAF white whole wheat flour
1 cup rolled oats

I run the water from the tap on hot with an instant read thermometer in it, until it registers 120 degrees. Then I pour out all but 1 3/4 cups of the water, and pour that in the bowl of my mixer. (I refill the measuring cup with warm water if I don't have an egg directly from the coop, and drop in the cold egg to warm it up.) I sprinkle the yeast on the water and let it begin to soften while I glook out the honey into the bowl. (The dough hook end does a great job of scooping out some of the excess honey so I can measure again.) I go directly to dough hook and don't pass GO, and add about three cups of flour and the buttermilk powder and let 'er start. (Using the buttermilk powder is cheating because I don't want to bother with warming any milk.) When it's starting to consume the flour, I add my warm egg, blob of butter, the salt, and the oatmeal. I let it go at the lowest or next to lowest speed for a bit, until it takes up almost all the flour. Then I add the remaining 2-3 cups of flour about half a cup at a time, letting the dough blob take it up. It should start looking elastic and gorgeous, not sticky, but not too dry either. Figuring when you've got it right is an acquired skill; it depends on the humidity and temperature and a little luck, too.

After all the flour's been taken up, I usually let it knead for 4-6 minutes more. Kneading by hand takes more time than by machine, so if a recipe says to knead by hand for ten minutes, I know 4-6 is plenty in my KitchenAid. As you've noticed, sometimes the dough sort of crawls up the shaft of the dough hook. This isn't a biggie; but if it bothers you, you can scrape it down with a butter knife and move the hook to another location in the dough blob. Or, you can turn the dough a little in the bowl as you flop it back down, so that the dough hook stabs it in a different place. When it's done kneading I pull the dough aside and spray all around with oil, then roll the dough to the other side so I can just throw waxed paper and a kitchen towel over the top to raise it. 

I almost always raise my bread in my oven. It has a nifty digital heat sensor so I can punch in 100 degrees if I like. Before I had this oven, I'd turn on the oven for two minutes, shut it off, and then turn on the oven light to make a nice proofing box. Either way works, as long as it doesn't get too hot or too cold. I leave it there for about an hour to an hour and a half, or until it's doubled in size and wants to foof down when I poke it with my finger. If it springs back much, well, it needs more time. Don't leave it too long though; the little yeasties can smother in their own waste, and that can give you a heavy loaf.

I punch it down, let it rest ten minutes on the counter, then divide it with a bench knife and shape into loaves. I put them in greased 8.5x4.5 pans, and put them back in the oven to rise again. These I check after about 30 minutes, because every once in awhile they really fly; but usually it takes 45 minutes to an hour to be loafy-looking. When they're close, I cheat (again!) and just turn on the oven to 400 degrees, and set my timer for 30 minutes. You can go 350 for 45 minutes if you like; it'll give you a paler loaf more like Americans eat. The faster oven oven gives a slightly darker loaf, more like the French eat. At least, that's the way it works with my JennAir. Either way it's dang good eatin.' I've fed it to a lot of different people and most say it's the best they've ever had. It's good for savory things like turkey sandwiches and for sweeter stuff like PBJs or French toast.

If you like, (or if they swelled up to huge proportions) pull them out while you preheat your oven. You can brush with some beaten egg and sprinkle on some extra rolled oats. This makes them look a little flashier and easier to identify on a big spread of food.

BTW, white whole wheat flour is a new cultivar. Hard red winter wheat is the typical bread flour, but it has a gene that makes it a little bitter. In the new cultivar it's been bred out. I like the KAF brand better than any other; the protein content is consistently high, which gives you more gluten for a more elastic dough. It runs around 13% versus the 11% for typical all purpose flour. Yet it's great for cookies and muffins, too. You can even get it organically grown.

Now I'm sure hoping I didn't forget anything.... :lookout:


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## nappy (Aug 17, 2003)

My KA is the Professional 600 with a 6 qt. bowl, and is nearly 5 years old. I've been using the basic white bread recipe in the KA book but have tweaked it to fit my needs to use honey and whole wheat flour. The milk, salt, honey and butter is heated in the microwave for 1 1/2 min. and cooled to lukewarm. When the milk mixture is almost cool, the water is heated for 3 min. in the MW and then poured into the mixing bowl to heat it along with rinsing the measuring cup in which the honey was measured. When the water has cooled to about 117*, the yeast is added and proofs for about 3 min. The cooled milk mixture is mixed into the yeast water. I use 3 C. whole wheat flour and 3 C. unbleached white. And because the whole wheat flour seems to require additional water, I add nearly 2 C. instead of the 1 1/2 C as in the KA recipe. Lately I have had problems with the middle of the loaves being crumbly so I'm now adding a Tbsp. of coconut oil or extra butter or applesauce which seems to help. It's kind of fun to play around with a recipe especially if it turns out good. One tip that has helped me is to butter the upper part of the dough hook and the flat bottom below where it attaches to the mixer. Another thing to remember is to check the spring latch where the bowl attaches to mixer. It has a screw that will loosen over time. Also I have tried to make 3 loaves but it strains the mixer too much.

Phew, that was wordy....hope it was understandable and of some help. Horseyrider, your oatmeal bread sounds delicious...will give it a try too.


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## FrodoLass (Jan 15, 2007)

Mickey said:


> Frodolass, I will try that white bread(GASP!) recipe that came with the machine.


LOL! I've made other stuff besides white bread. I've made rolls, pizza dough, cinnamon rolls, that delcious orange bubble bread recipe that was in the cooking forum 

I usually search online for a recipe designed for KA whenever I want to make something. I'm going to get a new bread machine for kneading, but am waiting to see if I can find one at a thrift store.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I Love my Kitchen aide mixer. For bread though after using it to mix the bread dough enough I turn it off & knead it by hand, then turn it over on the counter with the kitchen aide bowl on top of it until it's reisen enough. Works good for me that way.

I would guess the yeast, liquid or house was still too cool & maybe causing it to take alot longer to rise than you thought. Try using your kitchen aide with just a standard white bread dough first & see how you like it. I think mine works great for everything, I just do the final kneading of bread by hand.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

I'm going to try again tomorrow. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Thanks so much again ladies 
Mickey


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Mickey said:


> I'm going to try again tomorrow. I'll let you know how it turns out.
> Thanks so much again ladies
> Mickey


I've only skimmed the replies but did see something about temperature and rising. When I use my bread machine to knead dough, it rises well always; when I use the KA it doesn't always especially in winter here in Brrhio in a chilly house. I finally figured out why: the BM is "enclosed" while the KA isn't. So if I mix in the KA, I put my dough in a warm oven; sometimes I have to turn the oven back on to get it moving. And it seems to take longer. I can forget sourdough after Halloween; spring can't come soon enough for me.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

I use my KA for bread and it does take a long time to rise in the winter. Last week is took all day for both rises. I have burned out 3 KA mixers and am working on my 4th now. When this one goes Im getting a bosch. I dont care for the looks of them but Im tired of spending money on a "workhorse" and having it burn out on me. I use this recipe and it turns out everytime.
I tweak mine and use white whole wheat flour I buy at the store as I dont have a grain mill yet and hubby doesnt like whole wheat. I also use 1/4 of the sugar that the recipe calls for. 

http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Amish-White-Bread/Detail.aspx


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## Mulegirl (Oct 6, 2010)

I've not had problems getting bread to rise after using my KA mixer, but I do finish the kneading by hand with all my breads--it's just easier for me to tell if they're "done" that way. This was a new recipe, right? Sounds like you may just need to work out the kinks.

A slight tread hijack:

On the question of KA's burning out: an important tip is to NEVER EVER EVER use the lowest speed setting if you're mixing something even vaguely stiff, even if you've got one of the more powerful ones. I sort-of killed my mixer (bought new in 2006) during the first year by trying to mix/knead bread dough on that lowest setting, and by using the lowest setting during the last stage of my chocolate-chip oatmeal cookie recipe. At one point, mixing that last stage of the cookies, it just stopped. Dead. And it wouldn't start up again for a day or so. I freaked out, looked in my directions, and saw the instructions NOT TO KNEAD BREAD ON THE LOWEST SETTING EVER. Ooops. I continued to have periodic stops of the mixer until about a year and a half ago when it just quit. Completely. Wouldn't start up again even after a week. Well, we're short on money, and we didn't want to send it in to KA to get refurbished, so instead we read up a little on KA problems and went looking for parts. We figured it was one of a couple of things (worm gear or motor), and so bought replacements for less than $100, and my husband and his dad took it apart. At first they couldn't figure out what was wrong--replacing the parts didn't change anything--and then, just as he was giving up and putting the cover back on, my husband looked at the apparatus for the switch that turns the machine on and controls the speed. It had come unhooked. He put it back together, and we haven't had any problems since. No stoppages or anything, and we use the machine for kneading bread, making cookies, grinding flour, and cracking malted barley for beer. So if anyone has a KA that goes out on them, get a mechanically-inclined person to check out the insides. Since KAs aren't at all computerized, it's actually possible for a normal person to repair them.

End of thread hijack. Good luck with that oatmeal bread--I hope you can figure out what happened to it. I really don't have any other ideas aside from what's been said already!


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

Wow, I've had two KitchenAid mixers in thirty years, used hard and on whole wheat bread, and I've often used the lowest setting. It's what the manufacturer advised in the manual for the first one, so I just always did. I guess I've been lucky?

Such thread hijacks are indeed welcome, and wanted.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Thanks for the info on the speed of mixing bread. I dont use the lowest speed to mix it on. I think it just not the workhorse it used to be.


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## suzyhomemaker09 (Sep 24, 2004)

Horseyrider said:


> Wow, I've had two KitchenAid mixers in thirty years, used hard and on whole wheat bread, and I've often used the lowest setting. It's what the manufacturer advised in the manual for the first one, so I just always did. I guess I've been lucky?
> 
> Such thread hijacks are indeed welcome, and wanted.


If I'm not mistaken it says on the side where the speed numbers are the 2 setting says knead under it....I've seen it in the manual as well IIRC.


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## Mulegirl (Oct 6, 2010)

TJN66 said:


> Thanks for the info on the speed of mixing bread. I dont use the lowest speed to mix it on. I think it just not the workhorse it used to be.


From what my mom's said, this definitely is the case (I think she's still using the one she was given as a wedding present ~37-ish years ago). It is possible to deal with these "delicate" new ones, though.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

I'm sorry it took me so long to get back. It's been a very busy week.
I did try the King Arthur flour recipe in the KitchenAid again and this time it turned out perfectly:clap: I had written to them about the problem I had as well and it turns out it was entirely my fault:ashamed: I had doubled the recipe and it turns out that one does not neccesarily double ALL the ingredients when one doubles a bread recipe, and the other problem was that I didn't let it knead long enough. 
I haven't tried the recipe that I used with my bread machine again yet, but I'm pretty sure that some extra kneading will fix that one too. Oh, and I did warm the bowl and dough hook first. I'm free today so I'm going to try a couple of other recipes.
Now, can anyone tell me how to stop this darn machine from walking all over the work surface while it's kneading the dough?:help:
Mickey


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## lexiemom (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm very interested in hearing the stand mixers you ladies like. I am looking at the Bosch Universal (800 watt motor and a 6.5 qt. bowl) VS. a Cuisinart (1000 watt motor and 7 qt. bowl. Both have very similar features and I see lots of kudos for the Bosch plus I have a friend who has one, but I am reading in Test Kitchens the Cuisinart has a better recommendation. Any thoughts? I am going to use it primarily for baking bread, but will also do cookie dough, cakes, etc. THANKS!!


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## Marilyn (Aug 2, 2006)

I think the King Arthur flour is part of the problem. I have tried it twice and both times, my favorite bread recipe crumbled when sliced - and the baking powder biscuits only rose about half as much as normal. No more KA at this house.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

Oh my goodness, I've been using King Arthur's flours exclusively for 15-20 years now and never had a problem with it. I can't imagine what could have been wrong with it, but I'd try another bag.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mickey said:


> Now, can anyone tell me how to stop this darn machine from walking all over the work surface while it's kneading the dough?:help:
> Mickey


Try setting your machine on a tea towel, that often helps me with various appliances that want to slide around on the countertop.


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