# Quit Obsessing over Cartridges and Bullets: It doesn't matter!



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I am constantly amazed at both new and old white tail hunters, who talk endlessly of caliber, and worry ad nauseous about whether the brand new XYZ bullet is better than last year's ZYX bullet, etc.

I stopped getting gun rags, well about all out door magazines 40 years ago. Back when I was a young beginning deer hunter is you ran into 10 other deer hunters in the woods or a parking lot 90% would have a shot gun of some sort, a good many single shots and a few pumps. Of those 90% 10% would use a load of buck shot and the rest foster style slugs. 
Of the 10% with rifles you found lever action Winchesters from 25 20 to 30 30, Marlin 336 from 30 30 to 35 Remington, Savage 99's from 303 savage 300 to 250 3000 and war surplus rifles of 30 06 and 303 British and other country's rifles sweeds were popular. 
Each and every one killed deer. Rifles none had todays high flutin bullets. They were Remington core locks, Winchester silver tips were the fancy ones. and other soft lead bullets.

In the 1960's I started seeing writers pushing, big bore rifles, premium bullets and other crap not really needed.


Today I have shot a bunch of deer with my 243, 7mm08, 308, 300 win mag, 30 30, 20ga slugs, 300gr pistol bullets in a sabot from a 50cal ML and a 54cal ML. They all arrived at the cutting table dead as a door nail as the old saying goes.

None of this gun junk matters. None of the hair-splitting tables matter. All that really matters is that the stock fits you, and that you can comfortably handle the recoil of your rifle, so that you can cooly and calmly shoot a 3 to 4 inch group out to 200 yards. All of the rest is total BS.

 Al


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

You got that right. It's not what you shoot. It's how accurately you shoot it.
I do take issue with the guys who jumped on the bandwagon shooting extremely light rifles for deer. Sure a .223 will take a deer just as a .22LR CAN be used for a defensive round but ethics requires me to use a round that will help insure a quick clean kill to my game in the event my shot is not absolutely perfect.
In my part of New York we have only been able to use rifles for a few years. For decades thousands upon thousands of deer have been effectively taken with a well placed Foster slug. Even when hunting area's where I can use a rifle if the shooting is going to be within a certain range I will always grab my shotgun first.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I think you are full of it..........


The truth I mean....I agree.
MF even asked me once after I had started "collecting" guns....what do you need all those for?
But did kinda take a liking to the little Ruger .44mag carbine w/scope.......so kinda borrowed it foe a few years till he passed.

I usually don't bother getting into these discussions....I don't think anyone opinion has ever been changed by spouting ballistics, Chronograph reading, gell blocks......powders, bullets.,...Bla, bla...

To say nothing about the large number of kills the poster will they made using their magic combo.
You question them....and you will get a, "I killed 350 deer every year....SO I know WHAT I'm doing and am RIGHT!"

The funniest one I see all the time is....
"I want to take up deer hunting......what kind of gun do in need....?"
HAHAHAHA
You will get 100's of suggestions .....Buy this caliber, but you will need a Timmy trigger, bed the barrel (or float it) custom stock, $2000 buck scope..
Then reload your own .30 cal magic bullets over go-faster powder, but only re-load on Tuesdays(?)
Over, and Over, and Over.
And there seem to be a surge in popularity for small caliber and pistol caliber rifles ....Bigger calibers too much recoil for many?
After all" A .22lr will kill anything on the planet....I'ts all about sight picture.

Original guy at some point, kinda wanders off...to allow the experts hack away at each other.

The question REALLY was....
"Hey a buddy invited me to go deer hunting Saturday.....never been hunting, or owned a gun.
I just want to buy a gun, scope and box of shell on Friday....Heck most likely I won't see anything anyway...."
Soooo... Those long and windy answers to the OP... are deserved... as shooting and hunting of any sort need to be taken seriously...always.


----------



## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

I live in Delaware, it is a shotgun state, our deer are all taken by either shotgun or archery..My buddy has got over 75 deer and all with 00 buck, myself, I prefer a slug..In Pa. and WV I use a .308.....Several years ago I went to Maine Bear hunting took my 30-06, but my 870 would have done the trick...


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Hunter 63 I also love the question of what gun to buy. I always ask the poster if he/she is married. Many times they are and didn't need to ask any one if it was the right man/woman.

If your going with a buddy ask him what he would buy today.

 Al


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

A well placed shot with a .50 Hawken mini type slug and 90 gn at 100 yards drops a whitetail as well if not better than an aught six. Bang, flop, gut. I've found the .308 Win about the best for around here, see through scope mounts with iron zero at 125 yards and scope 200 yard zero. Now I carry a Ranch in 6.8 more often. 150 yard zero with a fixed 3x. My .308s are more finicky to bullet weights for given zeros than any of my other rifles except 7mm STW. Probably the rifles themselves, no big deal. Dial 'em in and stay there.


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

alleyyooper said:


> If your going with a buddy ask him what he would buy today.
> 
> Al


If you buy the same gun (caliber) that your buddy uses, you can share ammo, if one forgets his at home.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

I mounted a scope on a 20Ga. Pump my Grandson thinks I'm nuts.

But if I get 3 Deer with my Crossbow I'm quitting for the season.

big rockpile


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Your grandson does not have old eyes. But his time will come. I gave up on open sights a few years back.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Great post. All these new young guys at the shop always screaming about a new round. And dont get started on ammo. I killed many deer way out there with the ol Remington core lokt out of my 1953 Winchester model 70 30-06. My son does the same today with the same gun. Don't need the wild new cartridge or even the fanciest scope. Most deer are shot under 100 yards. My 3006 had its original fixed 4 power weaver until just recently when it finally wore out. Had no problem popping deer at 250 yards with it.


----------



## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

It is quite obvious that you gentlemen are not perfectionists!
After all it's not everyone's cup of tea to be able to group 4-5 shots into a 1" circle at 300 yards - that is if you could see that 1" circle at that distance without a super scope..... Or do a group like that without the latest super duper laser scanned bullet loaded into the greatest casing the world has ever known.... And of course you need to do all this with the newest caliber rifle - the envy of all those that haven't been able to afford that rifle because some spouse has other thoughts about where the money should go to....
   

Other than that I agree with all that has been posted.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I am a perfectionist!!!!!! I refuse to take a iffy shot, It isn't important to me to wound a animal and chase it down.

Rock pile I have a scope on my 20ga shot gun. It is one of those I am told junk scopes not worth taking out of the store as it will fall apart as soon as you can not return it to the store for money back.
It is a Bushnell dusk to dawn scope.
Funny it works great going on 20 years, first on a muzzle loader now the shot gun.



Have more Bushnell scopes on rifles too some as old as 48 years old with no problems. Only scope I ever had to send back to the factory because I had a problem with was a Leopold, today it holds down the pistol case in the safe. 

 Al


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

You are correct. A 30-06 or 308 with Remington Core Lokts will work just fine for any big game animal on the North American Continent, including the big bears and moose.

But ...... the gun manufacturers need to keep coming up with something new all of the time to keep people interested and buying new products. if everyone was content with one 30-06 or 308 there wouldn't be much gun or ammo business.


----------



## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

It is true that you only need one gun to take a deer, especially at the short ranges here in the woods. On the other hand folks try different guns and ammo just because it's fun. 

I am economically challenged so I only have two deer rifles. I am frugal so both are the same caliber, 30-06. Each is more accurate with a different specific factory load. They are most accurate with a specific reload. The Browning has the BOSS system so you can tune the vibrations of the barrel. I have that one tweaked to the point that it's accuracy is more accurate than I can utilize. 

I also like knowing that I have done all I can to ensure a clean kill.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I can go both ways. On the range I am a nit picking SOB for extreme accuracy. However when hunting I use what works that I am familiar with. Sometimes the two go hand in hand. I stand firm on passing up "iffy" shots. I let a lot of deer walk. On the other hand, I have never tracked a deer. Don't want to sound like I'm some great hunter. I'm not. But I have come up on poorly hit deer in my younger days and decided that I would not play that game.
As I may have posted before, the spike buck I took last year looked like he went through a shooting gallery. This was a mercy killing. In hunter training I use the line that when you hunt you are planning on killing one of Gods creature. It is your duty as an ethical hunter to end that creature's life as quickly and humanely as possible. There will always be another deer, or turkey, or squirrel or whatever you hunt. The world won't end by passing a shot. In the meantime, practice, practice, practice. That separates you from the fools who "spray and pray".


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Tracking deer is a norm with archers these days. I've had about enough of it on the farm. They need to get better or move on.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

diamondtim said:


> If you buy the same gun (caliber) that your buddy uses, you can share ammo, if one forgets his at home.


No, No, No......And he will ask to borrow, your ammo as he "forgot his" with a"pay ya back".....
Same guy that forgot his knife....and wants to borrow you.... to clean his deer for him.
You know "that Guy"...Heads to the hooter for a whizz... whenever it's his turn to buy a round at the saloon....

I shoot whatever they don't shoot......LOL


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

alleyyooper said:


> None of this gun junk matters. None of the hair-splitting tables matter. All that really matters is that the stock fits you, and that you can comfortably handle the recoil of your rifle, so that you can cooly and calmly shoot a 3 to 4 inch group out to 200 yards. All of the rest is total BS.
> 
> Al


 I agree, however like any hobby there are the hardcore folks that love to dwell in the minutia. It is their passion. I don't do reloading, but if I had to sit in a room and listen to a group discussing powders, grain weights and primer preferences, it might be interesting for the first 20 minutes or so and then I'd be ready for a bullet of my own.
I figure if people didn't share their "expertise" the bars would all be quiet.


----------



## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I remember a saying in a gun book that I read long. I don't recall anything about the guns.

" A BB that hits the target is more effective than a cannon ball that misses"

A fun interesting thread about the human animal. Aim small. 

I always need to practice before hunting to settle down, aim, avoid dreaded flinching, follow through etc.

All have none to do with the the gun or bow and everything to do with me.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Reloaders are like motorheads. My son and I can go on for hours just like sport fans. We choose our own poison.

Here in the Great Socialist State Of New York, If I "lend" you some ammo I have broken the law as I am not a licensed dealer.

Needless to say New York is full of unconvicted criminals.


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> No, No, No......And he will ask to borrow, your ammo as he "forgot his" with a"pay ya back".....
> Same guy that forgot his knife....and wants to borrow you.... to clean his deer for him.
> You know "that Guy"...Heads to the hooter for a whizz... whenever it's his turn to buy a round at the saloon....
> 
> I shoot whatever they don't shoot......LOL


I hear ya!
Why hunt with that guy in the first place, unless you're related or he owns the land. 

In that case, you only have 3 shells with you. Honest. I only have 3!


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

LOL....My go to for a while now is H&R Handi Rifle....in .270.
The stock has a cuff holds 10 rds.....but I cut two dividers out so it will hold 12 ga on part of it ....270 rifle in the remaining positions.....
So Maximum or 5 rounds total.....have never used more than 2 per deer with that rifle.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Saw a guy out in the swamps years ago who was hunting deer with a sxs. He had two of those mexican bandoleros full of slugs crossing his chest. Must have been carrying ten pounds of lead.
No deer was getting away from him by golly!


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Deer are a lot tougher and much more dangerous than they were 30 or 40 years ago, and way more than they were 80 years ago. Where a .35 Rem, .30-30 or .32 Special and even .25-35 would work, they will fail now. Bullets bounce off today's whitetails when they get into their bristling rage, tails flappin' and ears twitching. As far as I can tell for 100 yard work, you need at least a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win with at least one handgun backup.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

krackin said:


> Tracking deer is a norm with archers these days. I've had about enough of it on the farm. They need to get better or move on.


Broad Heads work different than Bullets and Tracking is normal.

big rockpile


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

krackin said:


> Deer are a lot tougher and much more dangerous than they were 30 or 40 years ago, and way more than they were 80 years ago. Where a .35 Rem, .30-30 or .32 Special and even .25-35 would work, they will fail now. Bullets bounce off today's whitetails when they get into their bristling rage, tails flappin' and ears twitching. As far as I can tell for 100 yard work, you need at least a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win with at least one handgun backup.


Interesting I didn't realize this. Know of a Guy over 40 years ago killed a Buck 300 yards with .22LR aimed 3 foot over its Neck to hit it but still killed it. It was so far away couldn't see it had Antlers and this was with a Single Shot Open Sights.

Same Guy same Rifle shot a Sparrow in the Head at 100 yards.

big rockpile


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Better ammo back then.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

krackin said:


> Better ammo back then.


Yes even .22 Shorts. They were so Bad never see them anymore.

big rockpile


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

What are these "guns" you people speak of? I hunt naked, with a rock


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

big rockpile said:


> Broad Heads work different than Bullets and Tracking is normal.
> 
> big rockpile


Yes they certainly do. They slice innards to cause internal bleeding. So be it. I don't consider quarter hits any indication of a qualified archer. Gut hits aren't much better. I don't bow hunt anymore even though I was pretty good. Pretty good isn't good enough IMHO.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I read this whole thread. Must be some kind of North South thing. The deer must be bigger and tougher up there. I have shot, hundreds, possibly close to a thousand deer, lots of those on crop damage permits. .223 works perfectly fine, just keep it between the ribs and the guts. Have had deer stand and look around like a bee stung them and fall over. Have actually noticed that they don't run as far as deer hit with the bigger calibers. Always figured it had to do with less muzzle flash, less sound and less of a mule kicking them in the ribcage. Works more like a bow, they bleed out without a lot of shock. Of course you have to have some common sense, you don't want to use a light bullet like that in high grass, heavy wind, or anywhere you can't thread it where it needs to go and have a good enough vantage point to see the deer's reaction.

I think a lot of people would do better with a .223, or at least a lot lighter recoil rifle than most people seem to push. They would shoot better because they weren't scared of it, and they could recover the sight picture in the scope to see what the heck was going on. A lot of tracking can be eliminated by watching the animal through the scope, which is hard to do if it's pointed straight up in the air and you are fighting to recover your balance while your nose is bleeding. 

Anymore cheap to shoot would be a good thing, encourage people to shoot a little more, cause everybody doesn't develop the skills that some of us have from a lifetime of cheap shooting, by just checking a scope at the range once a year. Spending a truck payment on a box of shells does not help shot placement.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Must be some kind of North South thing. The deer *must be bigger and tougher up there*.


Many animal species get larger the farther they are from the Equator.
They need more body mass to survive colder weather.

It's called "Bergmann's Rule":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann's_rule


> *Bergmann's rule* is an ecogeographical rule that states that within a broadly distributed taxonomic clade, populations and species of larger size are found in colder environments, and species of smaller size are found in warmer regions.
> 
> Although originally formulated in terms of species within a genus, it has often been recast in terms of populations within a species. It is also often cast in terms of latitude.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_deer
A Florida Key Whitetail buck (_Odocoileus virginianus clavium)_ might weigh 60-75 pounds full grown, while a Northern Woodland Whitetail buck (O. v. borealis) may go over 300.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I am well aware of Bergmann's rule. Don't think it is enough to stop a well placed .22 centerfire from working wonders on the majority of North American whitetails. The few places where deer hit 300 pounds, a .243 would suffice.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

.223 Would be illegal in most states where I hunt with a centerfire, usually .243 is minimum legal cartridge.

I wouldn't fault anyone for using a big bore if that's what they want to use. Heck, we've been tipping them over in the midwest with big old 12ga lead slugs and .50 cal muzzy bullets for a long time with no ill effect.


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

.223 is worthless mostly. It isn't really a very good chuck gun even. It works. A .22-250 walks over it all day. It is a lousy mid sized game round in any firearm. .243 is far superior, which should have been the replacement for the 7.62 round, in carbine.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Don't think it is enough to stop a well placed .22 centerfire from working wonders on the majority of North American whitetails.


They might kill the deer, but I think you'd be taking the risk of losing them due to the lack of a bloodtrail due to no exit wounds.

Taking head and neck shots really isn't a good idea and even the 24 calibers can have problems making it through on a less than perfect angle.


----------



## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

Caught off guard with a sharp broadhead, and hydrostatic shock caught off guard with lead, lead to the best eating. Both well placed.

Rat shot? Snake shot? Neither fall under the previous.

Stray cats, and typically dogs, as well as many vermin?

Humans, first in singles, second in multitudes.

Just being able to score at 300? Empty a hand in the ten at ten?

You don't get out/in much.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I never found lack of exit to be a problem. Buck running a doe or deer pushed out on a drive may be a little more problematic. But standing, walking, feeding deer that are relaxed usually don't make it far enough to lose. In deeper timber, it might also be a problem. In open fields, you are going to watch them fall because you will still have the scope on them, and in woods, you will hear them fall, because you won't be deaf. No tracking required. Bullet goes in, vaporizes heart and ling tissue, deer jumps and stands there, looks around, and then falls over. I have never shot one with a seven magnum, 30-06, .270, or .300 Weatherby that took a couple steps and stood there looking around, the way they do when they take a .223 or a .222 to the boiler room. The difference is, you can hold on the shoulder with any of those rounds, and they will fall on the spot, but then you can pretty much throw one or maybe two shoulders away. People that say .223 aren't effective on deer, either haven't done it, or weren't doing it right. Put it on the shoulder with a .223 and you might fail, but behind it works fine. Comes down to shot placement and ability to place shots.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Never had one take a single step out of my 300 RUM or 300 win mag. Shot a doe with a 22-250 once hit the lungs and tracked it for awhile, it sure as heck didn't stand there like nothing happened though!


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

*".223 is worthless mostly. It isn't really a very good chuck gun even."*

Tell that to the hundreds of coyotes taken with the 223 every year, Might also talk to the thousands of chucks harvested with the 223.
If your having a problem with one I suggest more time shooting paper and possible talking to those who know the proper bullet to use.

I am always hearing and reading about the lack of an exit wound, My self I want the bullet to take out the lungs and heart and not make an exit wound and ruin more meat than need be.

I like above do not take iffy shots at running deer and even the coyotes I shoot are very rarely running when I shoot.

 Al


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

gilberte said:


> What are these "guns" you people speak of? I hunt naked, with a rock


Tom Brown would give you a thumbs up. He did it with a knife.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

krackin said:


> Deer are a lot tougher and much more dangerous than they were 30 or 40 years ago, and way more than they were 80 years ago. Where a .35 Rem, .30-30 or .32 Special and even .25-35 would work, they will fail now. Bullets bounce off today's whitetails when they get into their bristling rage, tails flappin' and ears twitching. As far as I can tell for 100 yard work, you need at least a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win with at least one handgun backup.


You need more powerful cartridges to kill them deader.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Darren said:


> Tom Brown would give you a thumbs up. He did it with a knife.


I thought the rock was cheating.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The guy that got me started on .223 for deer was actually a soybean and peanut farmer. Was nothing for him to get hundreds of crop damage tags. He explored the .223 as a means to not have to drag them out of the field. Yes, it is nice to make use of meat, but once everyone you know and have contacted that eats deer meat runs and hides when you pull up in their yard with another pickup load of deer, what do you do? It's a hundred degrees out, you just killed 15 out of some fields that had fifty or seventy five in each of them. So the idea was, if he shot them in the ribs with a .223, they would die humanely, moreso than say a .22 rimfire, and at a longer range, but would make it out of the field. Was not the case. Go get the backhoe, and a helper, so we don't drag all the beans down getting them out. The plan didn't work like he intended. But, as ammo was cheaper and accuracy and recoil were great, he kept on using the .223, even when he had skinners and people with empty freezers lined up. Added side benefit was that you could shoot more deer in the field, because it wasn't as loud, and Gertrude wasn't running out of the field like she had a tiger after her.

Now, when I say deer stand there and look around and then fall over dead, that is out around 200 to 250. I wouldn't recommend shooting one with a .223 anywhere past 300 really past about 275. Up to around a hundred or a buckfitty, they usually kick and run, just like they were hit with a big magnum. .22-250 will make them run, out to about 2 or 250. A lot of it had to do with whether you hit a rib.

But if you can get that little .22 to go into the heart and lungs, it's like giving them a shot with a syringe, they react to the sound of the shot a little, and then start getting weak and fall over. The sound of the shot was not accompanied by the sensation of getting whacked in the side with a 2x4, so it didn't make them run. More nerves on the skin than in the lungs. It goes in, blows up and they die. When you add the .2x4 sensation, as seems to happen with your bigger calibers, they usually run. They are running dead, but they can cover a lot of ground before they lose enough blood pressure to end motor function in the brain. Have seen a bunch of deer cover hundreds of yards with holes like a volleyball from a big magnum, and a bunch of deer that didn't make it 50 yards with the .223 and the .222.

But if you shoot them in the paunch or the brisket or the ham, yes, you need more mass for more penetration so you get a good exit, because there will be tracking.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Loud when I do some range work out back with the 220 swift the wife says boy that thing is loud. but if I use the 54cal Muzzle loader she doesn't say that.

 Al


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

alleyyooper said:


> Loud when I do some range work out back with the 220 swift the wife says boy that thing is loud. but if I use the 54cal Muzzle loader she doesn't say that.
> 
> Al


I have noticed a different in report between the high speed round vs subsonic like the ML....


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hunter63 said:


> *subsonic* like the ML....


I would think most deer hunting loads are supersonic.
Even my 300 Gr. XTP's are getting 1600 FPS with just 80 Gr's of Triple 7 powder.
The muzzle loaders aren't as loud as most centerfires, but I don't think it's due to velocities as much as pressures.


----------



## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

krackin said:


> Deer are a lot tougher and much more dangerous than they were 30 or 40 years ago, and way more than they were 80 years ago. Where a .35 Rem, .30-30 or .32 Special and even .25-35 would work, they will fail now. Bullets bounce off today's whitetails when they get into their bristling rage, tails flappin' and ears twitching. As far as I can tell for 100 yard work, you need at least a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win with at least one handgun backup.


It certainly is a possibility that, since the introduction of guns, we have been removing the thin skinned deer from the gene pool. Look at dandelions if you want proof that man can change nature. Used to be that dandelions that grew nice and tall had an advantage over the low growing ones. Tall ones seeds would be spread further by the wind. Now the tall ones get cut down by all the lawn mowers before their seeds mature. Now the advantage is to the short ones and they are dominant. 

Another possibility is that hunters have become less proficient over time. Back in the day a hunter was expected to put meat on the table for each bullet used because bullets were expensive. Today's hunters need bigger bullets and more shots to bring down a deer.

If you want to explore the realm of conspiracy theories, consider that antihunters are sabotaging the ammunition. Perhaps replacing the bullets with papermachie dummies.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I would think most deer hunting loads are supersonic.
> Even my 300 Gr. XTP's are getting 1600 FPS with just 80 Gr's of Triple 7 powder.
> The muzzle loaders aren't as loud as most centerfires, but I don't think it's due to velocities as much as pressures.


Yup, probably correct....


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Admitted, a good hit with a .223 is far better than a clean miss with anything.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Why is it when ever .223 for deer is brought up....most of the comments are in defence of it?

Personnely although it may be legal in your state....My opinion is that it is too small and not enough energy to a clean kill.....unless all of the "conditions" are met.

To e....223 is used by those not dealing with recoil well......for what ever reason.....
Many like to have a large magazine of ammo...so they can keep shooting and sorta of "whittle them down".
Sorry had to toss that out there, .....That *my opinion* and I'm stiking to it


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hunter63 said:


> Why is it when ever .223 for deer is brought up....most of the comments are in defence of it?


There are a lot of people now with AR-15's who feel a need to justify hunting with them instead of buying another rifle chambered for a better cartridge.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are a lot of people now with AR-15's who feel a need to justify hunting with them instead of buying another rifle chambered for a better cartridge.


No ship.......and don't like recoil.


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

A biker I rode with who was out of KC,MO, road name was 'Stroker', was up my way and asked me about deer hunting. He asked me how many times I had to shoot a deer to drop it.

"One shot". 

He shook his head and told me he had just received an AR .223 as a gift and took up hunting. He said 4 shots. I told him to get a .308. To me he seemed good enough to get the shot but not taught the right way to make it. He told me he wasn't going hunting again after that. Been years now, don't know.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Been told that one of the reasons the 220 swift about didn't make it is due to gun writers back in the day claimed amazing kills on deer.
Yet the average deer hunter wasn't getting the same results.

I love my swift and it is legal in the northern half and the UP of Michigan but I would never chose it as my deer rifle, but then I own 4 other rifles with much better cartridges, a shot gun with rifled barrel, 3 50 cal ML's and a 54cal.

 Al


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the Scandinavian side of my family talks about how they though 22 hornet and 222 were great deer cartridges before they were forced into shotgun only by the state in the early 70s. everyone around them used them and no one had read any different at that point.

what I realized was they were always shooting deer under a hundred yards frequently in an apple orchard and would never think of anything but a neck shot because anything else would waste to much meat.

to this day my great uncle takes only neck shots with the little 20ga Ithaca Deer slayer smooth bore. we have never tracked one of his deer.


----------



## dademoss (May 2, 2015)

I dont know, but everytime I hit a squirrel with a .338 Lapua it vanishes 

Just kidding .


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

dademoss said:


> I dont know, but everytime I hit a squirrel with a .338 Lapua it vanishes
> 
> *Just kidding* .


I knew you were kidding because everybody knows it takes at least a 50 BMG to kill a squirrel.


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Great respect to ya'll for not mentioning the wrist rocket released boomerang shaped rock. I can't begin to fathom all the years we have used it in complete secrecy and never discovered. Keep it up!

For reasons of ultra secrecy, this has been written in top secret code. The key to the code is that what you see is the message, yet even mom won't believe it.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I had a cousin in the 1960's only used a Remington 222 Mag to deer hunt with till he stopped deer hunting.

 Al


----------



## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Never ha an issue with my .62 smoothbore. Light for squirrels, medium with soft lead for deer, little hotter with hard lead for bigger. Also shot for little things.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I aint no expert, and I don't play a doctor on TV. But I have done a lot of shooting over the past sixty years. My dad started killing deer with a .22 long rifle during the depression. Later he moved up to a Winchester 30 WCF, how many of you experts know what that is? Then when his eyes got bad he switched to a scoped .308 in a auto loading Rem.

I grew up on a small farm in Michigan, near Gaylord. I don't have any idea how many deer I have put in the freezer. All but two of them killed with a .22 magnum. Shoot what you got, hit what you aim at. If you can't do that, stay home.

I guided hunters for two seasons in Alaska. In my opinion, the average American hunter is a gut shooting slob.

Please excuse my language, my wife says I am a grumpy old man with selective hearing. At least that is what I think she said.

Muleskinner2


----------

