# **SCHOOL THESE DAYS ...



## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

I mean, can you believe that they completely did away with teaching cursive writing?!? What on earth?! My youngest son who is in elementary school isn't required to learn it what so ever and, when I asked why they weren't teaching him, they classify it as not imperative/important for anyone to know anymore!! I just about died! But, theyre teaching him algebra in the second grade!! Which, he doesn't pay mind to any of it, I currently have trouble with him in school. But I am just blown away about how things are nowadays, I seriously am. Rendered all but speechless by it. I mean, hand writing and, cursive is no longer necessary or, important to learn?!?! WHAT?!?! Yet, hes been learning things like algebra and, foreign language since the first and second grade. I never in my life ... 
(I'm not sure if I've done this right or, placed this in the correct spot, as this is my first post. If not, please feel free to do what's needed and, tell me what I should do better the next time. Thanks so much for everyone's kindness and, time in reading or, posting! )


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You first post is fine! 

When I have more time, I will post some of the liberal shenanigans going on in my grandson’s school district.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

lilcrzi said:


> I mean, can you believe that they completely did away with teaching cursive writing?!? What on earth?! My youngest son who is in elementary school isn't required to learn it what so ever and, when I asked why they weren't teaching him, they classify it as not imperative/important for anyone to know anymore!! I just about died! But, theyre teaching him algebra in the second grade!! Which, he doesn't pay mind to any of it, I currently have trouble with him in school. But I am just blown away about how things are nowadays, I seriously am. Rendered all but speechless by it. I mean, hand writing and, cursive is no longer necessary or, important to learn?!?! WHAT?!?! Yet, hes been learning things like algebra and, foreign language since the first and second grade. I never in my life ...
> (I'm not sure if I've done this right or, placed this in the correct spot, as this is my first post. If not, please feel free to do what's needed and, tell me what I should do better the next time. Thanks so much for everyone's kindness and, time in reading or, posting! )


Regarding cursive writing— Current research does not indicate that it has benefits over any other type of writing. Most teachers aren’t going to spend instructional time on cursive when other types of writing will do just as well. 

Regarding algebra in the second grade— In my experience, the “algebra” in the second grade is usually limited to things like 5 + ___ > 7 - ___ at most. While it is technically algebra, it isn’t the algebra most folks think of when they hear the word.

Regarding learning a foreign language— Current research show gains in the area of reading fluency, comprehension, cognitive development and memory for students who study a foreign language.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

What I find most appalling with our education system is that we have kids graduating that can barely write two sentences that make sense and have proper grammar. I taught several college courses that required writing papers. I was amazed at how terrible these students wrote yet had graduated from high school. How is that even possible?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

what I wonder is how will these kids be able to sign their name? Cursive is very personal.Printing can be duplicated 
Are they dumbing down the kids on purpose for some reason ?
signed..X..


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

Things really went down hill when the common core crap into play. I truly feel the smaller the school or even homeschool is the way to go. Public schools, especially the bigger ones are too worried on the gender, pc, liberal, socialist crap to worry about what is right or wrong to be taught. I have found that schools that have a grade population of 70 or less are much better at teaching what is needed and correct to teach.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

hiddensprings said:


> What I find most appalling with our education system is that we have kids graduating that can barely write two sentences that make sense and have proper grammar. I taught several college courses that required writing papers. I was amazed at how terrible these students wrote yet had graduated from high school. How is that even possible?


In the 1950,s when i was in school we had quite a few students that could not read or write very well. Even back then they would give a kid a D instead of an F so they could get out of school before they reached a certain age. Not much has changed over the years. As far as printing most everything is done on computer now. The big problem with longhand writing is some people don't write very well. Most can print ok so it can be read. I just wish we had computers when i was going to school. I did attend college for 10 years after i got out of the military. Each degree got me a raise in pay. 
High School drop out,
Gerold.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

lilcrzi said:


> I mean, can you believe that they completely did away with teaching cursive writing?!? What on earth?! My youngest son who is in elementary school isn't required to learn it what so ever and, when I asked why they weren't teaching him, they classify it as not imperative/important for anyone to know anymore!! I just about died! But, theyre teaching him algebra in the second grade!! Which, he doesn't pay mind to any of it, I currently have trouble with him in school. But I am just blown away about how things are nowadays, I seriously am. Rendered all but speechless by it. I mean, hand writing and, cursive is no longer necessary or, important to learn?!?! WHAT?!?! Yet, hes been learning things like algebra and, foreign language since the first and second grade. I never in my life ...
> (I'm not sure if I've done this right or, placed this in the correct spot, as this is my first post. If not, please feel free to do what's needed and, tell me what I should do better the next time. Thanks so much for everyone's kindness and, time in reading or, posting!
> 
> 
> ...


If I had kids I would probably home school or find a private school. I know many parents that have begun home schooling their kids, some of them my friends. One in particular, who was a math teacher (high school), was not impressed with the education her children were receiving. She teaches part time now at a nearby college, so she has time for home schooling. The kids are part of a group of home schoolers. She and her husband are very happy with the education the kids are getting.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

no really said:


> If I had kids I would probably home school or find a private school. I know many parents that have begun home schooling their kids, some of them my friends. One in particular, who was a math teacher (high school), was not impressed with the education her children were receiving. She teaches part time now at a nearby college, so she has time for home schooling. The kids are part of a group of home schoolers. She and her husband are very happy with the education the kids are getting.


That’s why I homeschooled my youngest daughter. We used a really excellent curriculum for a very classical education (The Calvert School) but I’ve seen some real failures as well. Parents who go work full time and expect the kid to sit in front of a computer while they’re gone to do an online curriculum, parents who aren’t teachers who use no set curriculum, some of the very religious curricula are pretty spotty academically. And I’ve known a couple of parents who just used their kids as farm help instead of actually homeschooling them.
When my daughter opted to go to public high school the teachers were shocked that she was far ahead of her peers. They were used to the opposite from homeschoolers who returned to public school.
But our state had no oversight whatsoever for homeschoolers so parents could do as they pleased for better or worse.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Lisa in WA said:


> That’s why I homeschooled my youngest daughter. We used a really excellent curriculum for a very classical education (The Calvert School) but I’ve seen some real failures as well. Parents who go work full time and expect the kid to sit in front of a computer while they’re gone to do on online curriculum, parents who aren’t teachers who use no set curriculum, some of the very religious curricula are pretty spotty academically. And I’ve known a couple of parents who just used their kids as farm hell instead of actually homeschooling them.
> When my daughter opted to go to public high school the teachers were shocked that she was far ahead of her peers. They were used to the opposite from homeschoolers who returned to public school.
> But our state had no oversight whatsoever for homeschoolers so parents could do as they pleased for better or worse.


I have known a lot of people who home schooled their children. Most did not get a compute up to date education. Most i know here in the Bible belt that do home education keep the kids at home and they get a lot of teaching out of the bible. That's great however when going for a job today its good to have an up to date education and know computing inside out. I have had 5 different business and have always hired people that had a good up to date education. To me one of the most important things a young person gets from a public or private school is how to get interact with people. Communication in all jobs is at the top of my list. Home school can limit this important skill in a lot of cases.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

101pigs said:


> I have known a lot of people who home schooled their children. Most did not get a compute up to date education. Most i know here in the Bible belt that do home education keep the kids at home and they get a lot of teaching out of the bible. That's great however when going for a job today its good to have an up to date education and know computing inside out. I have had 5 different business and have always hired people that had a good up to date education. To me one of the most important things a young person gets from a public or private school is how to get interact with people. Communication in all jobs is at the top of my list. Home school can limit this important skill in a lot of cases.


It ended up that my daughter had to take most of her classes online in the school library (to access AP classes) but she did end up at a top college and is now getting ready to graduate from law school this May.
My MIL (who was a teacher) accused us of “educationally neglecting” our daughter so it was nice that she had to eat those words. 

I knew one family who used ONLY the Bible as a textbook. They discontinued the daughters academic education after 8th grade and focused on homemaking skills. They homeschooled, homechurched and the kids eventually “courted” with teens of the opposite sex whom their respective parents had chosen. It was like a cult. No easy way for those girls to choose their own lives with no real education and no exposure to the outside world.
i can’t say enough how much I think that is child abuse of a sort.


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## ladytoysdream (Dec 13, 2008)

I am not up to speed on what the kids are learning in school today.
I think cursive writing is important.

I was getting a few groceries at the mom pop vegtable store the other day.
I had 4 markdowns of bread, cookies. Half price.
So the $ 1.29 was 65 cents. I do stuff like this in my head all the time
so I know what my totals are. Next thing I know the cashier whips out his
calculator and starts with the numbers. I looked at him, and said,
the price is 65 cents. He looks at me and says, why yes you are right.
SIGH....I was wondering if math was not his best subject.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Personally I see no problem with lack of cursive. Most that I have been exposed to is difficult to read do to poor skills. Printing is pretty easy to read even when its not done well.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Personally I see no problem with lack of cursive. Most that I have been exposed to is difficult to read do to poor skills. Printing is pretty easy to read even when its not done well.


I think I may well agree with you. Cursive may have become obsolete. Of course, older generations are aghast because it’s importance has been drummed into us.
People can always teach their children cursive themselves.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

ladytoysdream said:


> I am not up to speed on what the kids are learning in school today.
> I think cursive writing is important.
> 
> I was getting a few groceries at the mom pop vegtable store the other day.
> ...


I feel your pain. Me and numbers... they don't always go together well. But I have had to, on several occasions, teach either one of my own employees or a cashier handling my transaction how to count change....


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Most teachers aren’t going to spend instructional time on cursive when other types of writing will do just as well.


They could if they weren't wasting time on being politically correct.



SLFarmMI said:


> Current research show gains in the area of reading fluency, comprehension, cognitive development and memory for students who study a foreign language.


They should learn to use the first one correctly before taking on another.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

when I was young, a lot of people spoke German or Polish if they didn't want us kids to know what they were saying.
Now us old timers only have to write notes in cursive and those youngsters will never catch on.. LOL
In doing some family tree searching, my wife got a court recording of a divorce. written in cursive and 14 pages long.. circa 1900..

signed..X..


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If the teachers can't write cursive, how can they teach it. When I lived in Teller, Alaska a Eskimo village on the Bering Sea, I often had supper with the teachers. The principal invited everybody over for supper once a week. One of the new teachers was complaining about the lack of computers in her classroom. She said, "How can I be expected to teach math? I only have three computers in my classroom."

How do you even respond to a question like that?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

A chalkboard and chalk ?


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

I'm seriously considering home schooling.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Where we live, it doesn't matter how hard a child tries or, doesn't try ... They support "no kid left behind" and, my son passes with straight Fs regardless. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Yes, they need the communication skills and interaction, I agree with that. But in my instance, I can teach him much better.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> Where we live, it doesn't matter how hard a child tries or, doesn't try ... They support "no kid left behind" and, my son passes with straight Fs regardless. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Yes, they need the communication skills and interaction, I agree with that. But in my instance, I can teach him much better.


I support the "_no child left behind_" mantra related to elementary school, because academically speaking, there's little to no importance in the studies that are administered at that age.

With that said, I can appreciate the complications and obstacles that such a system can harvest.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Witch's Broom said:


> I support the "_no child let behind_" mantra related to elementary school, because academically speaking, there's little to no importance in the studies that are administered at that age.
> 
> With that said, I can appreciate the complications and obstacles that such a system can harvest.


No importance to the studies at that age? What exactly do you mean?


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Witch's Broom said:


> I support the "_no child let behind_" mantra related to elementary school, because academically speaking, there's little to no importance in the studies that are administered at that age.
> 
> With that said, I can appreciate the complications and obstacles that such a system can harvest.


What do you mean, little to no importance in what they're learning? They're teaching him algebra and such hard work is causing him severe anxiety and stress. Its sad. If it means nothing then why on earth put them through it?


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

no really said:


> No importance to the studies at that age? What exactly do you mean?


Exactly what I said, little importance.

Wasn't until junior and senior-high (back in my school days), where studies played a more integral part as to being accepted into certain (post senior-high) institutions based on ones curricular studies, and the same held true when my oldest entering school a decade after.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

The pressure placed on him is extreme for his age. Yet, they don't teach the little, more simple things. He comes home telling me how he's so stupid because he doesn't comprehend what they are teaching. He struggles just to get passed along anyway, it makes no real sense, not any of it, if its all for nothing anyway. I just got to thinking about it today and wondered how many other parents out there may have ever dealt with this also. I really just wanted to reach out about it and possibly connect. My son has had the worst year of his life this year.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Who cares about a foundation and whether the plumbing is hooked up on the main floor? Worry about the upstair windows and the roof.
That is how you build the best houses.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Witch's Broom said:


> Exactly what I said, little importance.
> 
> Wasn't until junior and senior-high (back in my school days), where studies played a more integral part as to being accepted into certain (post senior-high) institutions based on ones curricular studies, and the same held true when my oldest entering school a decade after.


That is a complete opposite of my schooling, all aspects of education played an integral part. Amazed that anyone could downplay any part of the system.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Well its certainly an awful way to begin their schooling and, basically the very stepping stones to their entire education. I see no point in it being set up that way. And I know theres nothing I can't teach him, if not teach better one on one, at home rather than a classroom and, still keep up with socializing him and such, without doubt. And I wouldn't let him get away with not learning, that's the whole point.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> What do you mean, little to no importance in what they're learning? They're teaching him algebra and such hard work is causing him severe anxiety and stress. Its sad. If it means nothing then why on earth put them through it?


I'm sure nearly every school kid goes through a few trials and tribulations related to learning along the way, but I'd be had-pressed to believe such causes any long-term or permanent side-effects or after-effects.

I struggled through mathematics all through my school years (as it was called back in my day), and I ended up graduating just fine, and am just as well-adjusted today as I would be had mathematics not been introduced into the early part of my education.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Must be totally different locations to anywhere near where I'm from or, different timing in going to school between us because it wasn't looked at like that at all for me or, my family. Or my husbands family for that matter. He feels the same.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

lilcrzi said:


> The pressure placed on him is extreme for his age. Yet, they don't teach the little, more simple things. He comes home telling me how he's so stupid because he doesn't comprehend what they are teaching. He struggles just to get passed along anyway, it makes no real sense, not any of it, if its all for nothing anyway. I just got to thinking about it today and wondered how many other parents out there may have ever dealt with this also. I really just wanted to reach out about it and possibly connect. My son has had the worst year of his life this year.


how old is your son in relation to the rest of his class?


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Its still mathematics  math for short. Algebra is what high school and, college kids learn, not so much elementary school children. Which my son is, he's in 3rd grade.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Lisa in WA said:


> how old is your son in relation to the rest of his class?


He was made to skip kindergarten because his birthday fell beyond acceptance. But, he's the same age, technically a year behind.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> He was made to skip kindergarten because his birthday fell beyond acceptance. But, he's the same age, technically a year behind.


Not suggesting that is where the woes are originating, but IMO, skipping a child through kindergarten is downright wrong.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

You would be surprised at what finger painting and gluing elbow noodles onto paper can and does do for a child's early development, just saying. No schooling should be wasted or for nothing. His mind is supposedly in its prime for learning at the youngest of ages.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> *You would be surprised at what finger painting and gluing elbow noodles onto paper can and does do for a child's early development*, just saying. No schooling should be wasted or for nothing. His mind is supposedly in its prime for learning at the youngest of ages.


No argument from me.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

He got played a pretty awful hand. His beginning is so tainted. And now its partly because of these things as to why he already rejects school in some ways. And here, all I want is a proper learning experience and, education for him. That's all.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> I'm seriously considering home schooling.


I believe for some children that is key. One-on-one attention and focus.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

lilcrzi said:


> He was made to skip kindergarten because his birthday fell beyond acceptance. But, he's the same age, technically a year behind.


I can’t even fathom a school making a child skip kindergarten because of age when so many parents opt to keep their children home an extra year. 
So how old is he now in second grade?


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Witch's Broom said:


> Not suggesting that is where the woes are originating, but IMO, skipping a child through kindergarten is downright wrong.


I feel the same way! I ask all the time if that was even allowed or, if they would have had to accept him the following year just as an older child? It absolutely stunted his start in school, in many ways. I have no doubt and, its a shame.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Lisa in WA said:


> I can’t even fathom a school making a child skip kindergarten because of age when so many parents opt to keep their children home an extra year.
> So how old is he now in second grade?


He's 9 in 3rd. I tried to enroll him and they refused to let me.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

lilcrzi said:


> He's 9 in 3rd. I tried to enroll him and they refused to let me.


You tried to enroll him in kindergarten and they said, “no, he’s too old”?
Because he was 6 years old?


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> I feel the same way! I ask all the time if that was even allowed or, if they would have had to accept him the following year just as an older child? It absolutely stunted his start in school, in many ways. I have no doubt and, its a shame.


I agree with you wholeheartedly.

This topic really hit home with me, because I had a friend that started kindergarten one year too early, due to the year and time in which her birthday fell, and her mother knew at the time she wasn't ready, but she allowed it, and sure enough, my friend struggled dearly until grade 5, at which point the school held her back for a return year in grade 5, and from that point on she excelled.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Witch's Broom said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly.
> 
> This topic really hit home with me, because I had a friend that started kindergarten one year too early, due to the year and time in which her birthday fell, and her mother knew at the time she wasn't ready, but she allowed it, and sure enough, my friend struggled dearly until grade 5, at which point the school held her back for a return year in grade 5, and from that point on she excelled.


My oldest daughter was born in the summer and luckily we lived in Indiana where the cut off date at the time was June 1 for kindergarten. We moved away but stuck to that schedule though we were urged to move her into school sooner because she was academically precocious.
I’d done a lot of looking into it and talking to professionals and the thing that stuck with me is that no one ever regretted giving their child an extra year to mature but MANY regretted sending them to kindergarten too young.

She was always among the oldest in her class and school was an absolute breeze for her...both academically and socially. I was born on the cut off date and was always the youngest in my grade and I would have benefitted immensely from being he,d an extra year.

It’s just unfathomable that a school would deny kindergarten to a six year old because he was too old.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Witch's Broom said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly.
> 
> This topic really hit home with me, because I had a friend that started kindergarten one year too early, due to the year and time in which her birthday fell, and her mother knew at the time she wasn't ready, but she allowed it, and sure enough, my friend struggled dearly until grade 5, at which point the school held her back for a return year in grade 5, and from that point on she excelled.


Not that a "like" is actually prohibited ...
Thats just terrible, I mean, these are reasons why I feel (even if it is just for the time) that the system fails the kids at times. Its been extremely rough. My son can be terribly hard on himself and an actual fail is all he needs to top it off. Of course, I'll be there to help him through it. But, he used to love school and its been especially hard to see and take care of lately. I just can't believe it myself that schools even do such things!


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Lisa in WA said:


> My oldest daughter was born in the summer and luckily we lived in Indiana where the cut off date at the time was June 1 for kindergarten. We moved away but stuck to that schedule though we were urged to move her into school sooner because she was academically precocious.
> I’d done a lot of looking into it and talking to professionals and the thing that stuck with me is that no one ever regretted giving their child an extra year to mature but MANY regretted sending them to kindergarten too young.
> 
> She was always among the oldest in her class and school was an absolute breeze for her...both academically and socially. I was born on the cut off date and was always the youngest in my grade and I would have benefitted immensely from being he,d an extra year.
> ...


I would have LOVED them to have given him the opportunity to still go to kindergarten the following year and, go through the stages and, processes of school, as any other child does or, at least should, have the chance to. He would have been amazing as well, I believe. He truly loved school then and desperately wanted to go and make friends. It was sad how it crushed him. Its been hard since. I absolutely would have kept him back and sent him to kindergarten first but, they had him go straight into first grade based on his age


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

You must have a horrendously bad school there.
Not allowing a 6 year old in kindergarten is unheard of. 
My grandson is four. He will have had preschool for ages 3,4 and 5 and then start kindergarten at 6. this is not an uncommon age to start...particularly for boys. 

@SLFarmMI, do you have any insights on this?


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

And then also factor in how all of the other children who had gotten that chance and opportunity all went to kindergarten the year prior together, they all knew one another and already had good friends made. Not only was it his first year ever, it was also all new period. He was so unprepared.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Lisa in WA said:


> You must have a horrendously bad school there.
> Not allowing a 6 year old in kindergarten is unheard of.
> My grandson is four. He will have had preschool for ages 3,4 and 5 and then start kindergarten at 6. this is not an uncommon age to start...particularly for boys.
> 
> @SLFarmMI, do you have any insights on this?


I've honestly wondered if there were anything I could even have done about it now? I wouldn't know what exactly but, even just someone's help, a tutor, anything for him. Its all but unjust, what happened.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

lilcrzi said:


> I've honestly wondered if there were anything I could even have done about it now? I wouldn't know what exactly but, even just someone's help, a tutor, anything for him. Its all but unjust, what happened.


I think you should find someone in your district to talk to. It doesn’t seem to make sense to keep him in a situation he is failing at that’s causing him such anxiety.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> My oldest daughter was born in the summer and luckily we lived in Indiana where the cut off date at the time was June 1 for kindergarten. We moved away but stuck to that schedule though we were urged to move her into school sooner because she was academically precocious.
> I’d done a lot of looking into it and talking to professionals and the thing that stuck with me is that no one ever regretted giving their child an extra year to mature but MANY regretted sending them to kindergarten too young.
> 
> She was always among the oldest in her class and school was an absolute breeze for her...both academically and socially. I was born on the cut off date and was always the youngest in my grade and I would have benefitted immensely from being he,d an extra year.
> ...


Absolutely spot on!


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Lisa in WA said:


> I think you should find someone in your district to talk to. It doesn’t seem to make sense to keep him in a situation he is failing at that’s causing him such anxiety.


I'll try the school board again perhaps. I've called them before, during this year actually. I pray to find some kind of solice. 
Still wish he learned penmanship though  it took him ages to learn how to write as well and, its still practically illegible.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> Not that a "like" is actually prohibited ...
> Thats just terrible, I mean, these are reasons why I feel (even if it is just for the time) that the system fails the kids at times. Its been extremely rough. My son can be terribly hard on himself and an actual fail is all he needs to top it off. Of course, I'll be there to help him through it. But, he used to love school and its been especially hard to see and take care of lately. I just can't believe it myself that schools even do such things!


I can't believe it either. It's a terrible shame.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

This is my very first post as well! And I tell you what, I'm sure glad you all have been here for it to help!! If nothing else, I feel a bit better in knowing others can relate and, be here for help or direction if needed. I truly appreciate it, more than you may know right now!


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

lilcrzi said:


> This is my very first post as well! And I tell you what, I'm sure glad you all have been here for it to help!! If nothing else, I feel a bit better in knowing others can relate and, be here for help or direction if needed. I truly appreciate it, more than you may know right now!


It's what I refer to as community spirit, and as far as I'm concerned, not enough community spirit exists today, so being able to kick it up a notch here is refreshing!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> You must have a horrendously bad school there.
> Not allowing a 6 year old in kindergarten is unheard of.
> My grandson is four. He will have had preschool for ages 3,4 and 5 and then start kindergarten at 6. this is not an uncommon age to start...particularly for boys.
> 
> @SLFarmMI, do you have any insights on this?


Kindergarten is not required here which I think is dumb but I have never heard of a district not allowing a parent to enroll a child in kindergarten at all. What usually happens here is that, if a kid misses the birthday cutoff here which I think is 5 by Sept 1 (they keep changing it so not sure), they enroll in kindergarten the following school year. We’ve had parents choose to enroll their kids directly in first grade that year but we usually advise against it.

@lilcrzi, part of my job is to dig into why students are struggling in school. So, if you don’t mind, may I ask a few questions? If your son is struggling, his teacher should be pulling him into a small group with other struggling students to work on helping hm acquire the skills he is missing. When you have spoken to her, has she outlined the skills he is missing and what they are working on in small group? Is this the first year he has been struggling or has it been ongoing? What have his previous teachers said? Is he struggling in language arts, math, both? All subjects?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kindergarten is not required here which I think is dumb but I have never heard of a district not allowing a parent to enroll a child in kindergarten at all. What usually happens here is that, if a kid misses the birthday cutoff here which I think is 5 by Sept 1 (they keep changing it so not sure), they enroll in kindergarten the following school year. We’ve had parents choose to enroll their kids directly in first grade that year but we usually advise against it.
> 
> @lilcrzi, part of my job is to dig into why students are struggling in school. So, if you don’t mind, may I ask a few questions? If your son is struggling, his teacher should be pulling him into a small group with other struggling students to work on helping hm acquire the skills he is missing. When you have spoken to her, has she outlined the skills he is missing and what they are working on in small group? Is this the first year he has been struggling or has it been ongoing? What have his previous teachers said? Is he struggling in language arts, math, both? All subjects?


I was just talking to my sister in Ohio (she’s a kindergarten teacher with 30 years of special ed experience) and Ohio now won’t let kids move into 1st grade without kindergarten. Which seems smart to me.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

lilcrzi said:


> You would be surprised at what finger painting and gluing elbow noodles onto paper can and does do for a child's early development, just saying. No schooling should be wasted or for nothing. His mind is supposedly in its prime for learning at the youngest of ages.


How well he does from 1-5th grade will be his foundation for learning in the next grades. Without that foundation he will be in sad shape in the coming years. I started school in the 1st grade because of the date of my age. That was in the country. I got to the city school and because the school in the country was not accredited i had to do the first grade over. Spend another school year in the country so then i was behind 2 years in the city school. At age 17 and only in the 10 grade quit and joined the Marines and took tests in there and had my H.S. compete in one year. I was in charge of the Education dept. the last year in the Marines got 1 year college. Worked and went college for the next 10 years till i got my PhD in design engineering. The first 8 years of school are the most important in his education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I was just talking to my sister in Ohio (she’s a kindergarten teacher with 30 years of special ed experience) and Ohio now won’t let kids move into 1st grade without kindergarten. Which seems smart to me.


That’s promising. What Ohio does, whether good or bad, Michigan usually follows so this could be a good thing for us.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> That’s promising. What Ohio does, whether good or bad, Michigan usually follows so this could be a good thing for us.


She also said the cut off in her district is August 1st. I don’t know if that’s state wide or not. 
Kindergarten is so academic now. It’s insane to make a child skip it.
But that’s a whole other argument. 
I think kids are too hurried.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

lilcrzi said:


> The pressure placed on him is extreme for his age. Yet, they don't teach the little, more simple things. He comes home telling me how he's so stupid because he doesn't comprehend what they are teaching. He struggles just to get passed along anyway, it makes no real sense, not any of it, if its all for nothing anyway. I just got to thinking about it today and wondered how many other parents out there may have ever dealt with this also. I really just wanted to reach out about it and possibly connect. My son has had the worst year of his life this year.


That's terrible for him. You can't learn fancy number work without knowing the basics. It's the same with reading and writing.

I took my daughter out of public school in the 5th grade to homeschool her. We had to go to a 3rd grade workbook to get something she could understand. She got her GED right around the time she would have graduated. In Ohio if you pass the practice test with a high enough grade you don't have to take the classes. She passed with a higher score than most of the district graduates.

With all the resources available to home schoolers now, from workbooks to online schools, there is no excuse to not provide a decent education for home schooled children. Yet some parents just don't care and do little to no educating. 

Our biggest obstacle was the metric system. It's very difficult to teach something that you never use.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

The cursive/printing argument in school is actually rooted in the manufacturing sector going back to the 1970s /1980s.

While cursive has long been valued for it's speed of flow in writing and space saving aspect of page of paper and saved on postage and to an extent helped verify the identity of the writer, in industry ,especially technical environments neat almost typeface grade printing is preferred for clarity when a typeface device is not used.

Cursive writing also has the disadvantage of if a person writes something in a rush even they cannot read their cursive after it has gone cold.

I was taught to write cursive and my signature and often my cursive in personalizing occasion cards with a note is almost calligraphy grade and I can print true calligraphy on certificates of achievement and such when needed.

However , during my career, entries in my engineering log notebooks with graph paper lined pages required size 10 +- 1 printing for clarity if others had to review my in use or storage archived log books.

Now with tablets and laptops replacing log books in industry, it is logical that typeface printing is considered acceptable , however cursive will continue to be required to be taught in some extent in the future so students learn enough to make their signature instead of printing it or making their mark with witnesses .


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Who cares about a foundation and whether the plumbing is hooked up on the main floor? Worry about the upstair windows and the roof.
> That is how you build the best houses.


 . Wish they had abandoned cursive writing before it was forced on me. Waste of time then (50+years ago) and a waste of time now. Art class was also the bane of my existence at the time. 

IMHO a proper foundation (thank you GTX63) in reading, math, and science is critical. Not so much learning French or Spanish, they all want to come here, let them learn English. So many children born in this country who graduate high school without being able to write an understandable sentence in English and we want them to understand a foreign language as well?


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

lilcrzi said:


> Its still mathematics  math for short. *Algebra is what high school and, college kids learn, not so much elementary school children.* Which my son is, he's in 3rd grade.


5+2=?

5+_=7

x=5+2

Hint: they are ALL Algebra.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I didn't read all the pages. I have a question for the mom of the 3rd grade boy. 
Did you teach him to read or learn any numbers before he started school ? Do you help him understand his homework ? I already suspect that he doesn't have homework.. That is where your responsibility comes in.
create some pertinent homework .
your chance of homeschooling is already at hand..
If he is one year younger than the most of the children in his class, he is at a huge disadvantage.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

School is different now days, and I've heard it's easier for a very young child to learn a foreign language. 

Cursive was taught to me and mine, but I myself rarely use it. 
My father had beautiful handwriting, but I've never seen a simple stroke in my mothers notes, right down to her unique printed signature.

With so many educational games and workbooks available and presented as a fun evening activity you can work with him at home and get a taste of what it would be like to homeschool.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I know that everyone thinks the education of the past was the best and it certainly had great advantages but it is hardly new that parents complain about the changes to education. My parents were horrified at the curriculum that was the standard at my time - and this was back in the 1950s,60s and 70s.

And they were right. Their education was much more comprehensive, varied and detailed. Their solution was to accept that there were things that we would learn at school and other things that it was their responsibility to teach us so that we could have a well rounded education. 

My Dad read every text book that we had and taught us much more than was in any of them. He corrected some of the math, science and chemistry texts which the school board did not really appreciate as they did not want to print new books. He was completely disgusted by this decision. Mom was in charge of languages and behaviour and supervised our reading. 

There is no reason why parents or grandparents cannot teach things that are cut from the curriculum. It would be nice if everything was included - especially music, art and physical education - but these seem to be the first things cut.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Other than signing my name, I have not used cursive since high school - 46 years ago. But if you believe it important, teach him yourself. Education should start in the home anyway.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

emdeengee said:


> I know that everyone thinks the education of the past was the best and it certainly had great advantages but it is hardly new that parents complain about the changes to education. My parents were horrified at the curriculum that was the standard at my time - and this was back in the 1950s,60s and 70s.
> 
> And they were right. Their education was much more comprehensive, varied and detailed. Their solution was to accept that there were things that we would learn at school and other things that it was their responsibility to teach us so that we could have a well rounded education.
> 
> ...


My youngest Daughter teachers at Cal.State long beach, C. She is a big History fan from way back. Most grade schools have replaced History classes with Social Studies. My Daughter and a few other teachers have had a drive in every state to get History back in grade school. 6 states now teach History in their schools. When i went to school History was require subject in school. I have helped a few kids with there home work and Social studies. I teach them a bit more History in Social studies and they and their teachers have all approved the way i teach them the History that deals with their home work. When my children was in school soon as they got home from school in the evening they had to sit at their table and do home work if no home work they had to read a book of their choice for 1 hour after school. They have carried this practice on with their children. Works for us. All my children have are engineers, teachers, one is a diamond dealer and one has a big pawn shop in Ca. All have their own property and do very well.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> My youngest Daughter teachers at Cal.State long beach, C. She is a big History fan from way back. Most grade schools have replaced History classes with Social Studies. My Daughter and a few other teachers have had a drive in every state to get History back in grade school. 6 states now teach History in their schools. When i went to school History was require subject in school. I have helped a few kids with there home work and Social studies. I teach them a bit more History in Social studies and they and their teachers have all approved the way i teach them the History that deals with their home work. When my children was in school soon as they got home from school in the evening they had to sit at their table and do home work if no home work they had to read a book of their choice for 1 hour after school. They have carried this practice on with their children. Works for us. All my children have are engineers, teachers, one is a diamond dealer and one has a big pawn shop in Ca. All have their own property and do very well.


History is incorporated within Social Studies. History, civics and geography are all taught under the umbrella of Social Studies.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

101pigs said:


> My youngest Daughter teachers at Cal.State long beach, C. She is a big History fan from way back. Most grade schools have replaced History classes with Social Studies. My Daughter and a few other teachers have had a drive in every state to get History back in grade school. 6 states now teach History in their schools. When i went to school History was require subject in school. I have helped a few kids with there home work and Social studies. I teach them a bit more History in Social studies and they and their teachers have all approved the way i teach them the History that deals with their home work. When my children was in school soon as they got home from school in the evening they had to sit at their table and do home work if no home work they had to read a book of their choice for 1 hour after school. They have carried this practice on with their children. Works for us. All my children have are engineers, teachers, one is a diamond dealer and one has a big pawn shop in Ca. All have their own property and do very well.


One thing I loved about our homeschool curriculum (Calvert) is that we did history, geography and civics separately. A textbook for each and they were read over the course of the school year cover to cover.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mnn2501 said:


> Other than signing my name, I have not used cursive since high school - 46 years ago. But if you believe it important, teach him yourself. Education should start in the home anyway.


I agree and feel that it doesn't matter if we home school or send our kids to public school, they won't thrive unless there is strong parental involvement. 

My youngest had a horrible time learning to read with the sight recognition method and since his skills were marginal, I suspect he would have advanced grades regularly until it became an ugly problem. I met with his teacher and we set up a program that helped him learn read phonetically and got consent from the school to keep him in the same reading program as the rest of the class but was allowed to select age appropriate books that were geared toward his areas of interest. Clifford the Big Red Dog was replaced with children's books about agriculture and equipment. 

When fractions became an issue, he learned by using wrenches, sockets and cooking recipes.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I was watching my 4YO granddaughter color, and it dawned on me that she is left-handed! My memory flew back to the time when our teacher would almost slap a lefty's hand to get them to keep from curling it over the top of the center line of the Double QQ yellow tablet and dragging the pencil instead of pushing it. You could always tell a lefty's writing because it "slanted" in the _wrong direction_(according to the teacher)

I imagine her parents' will teach her cursive with a $1.99 app for iPhone--just practice on the screen. Stands to reason, they taught her ASL as she was learning to talk. Better than watching dumb hero cartoons on TV.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cursive-writing-app-abcursive/id1033872407

geo


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

On the foreign language thing. First it is easier for young child to learn a foreign language. And it can be a good thing. BUT if there are no native speakers so the child can use it daily in normal course of their life, they wont really learn a foreign language. They will just learn bunch of substitute words for words they know in their native language. Plus some grammer. Meaning with help of a foreign language to English dictionary and lot frustration they probably can figure out how to translate writing in that foreign language, least get gist of it. They wont even come close to fluency to be able to communicate seriously in that language with native speaker. In other words lot work to not be able to do as well as Google translate.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

Here's a thought, we've removed cursive because it's now considered antiquated--more or less. So with the invention of speech translation devices how long do you think it will be required to actually learn a foreign language, or will that be phased out as well?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> History is incorporated within Social Studies. History, civics and geography are all taught under the umbrella of Social Studies.


 You are right and that is the problem. Its all put together in Social Studies. Most of the History is not there anymore.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> You are right and that is the problem. Its all put together in Social Studies. Most of the History is not there anymore.


Not true. 

Exactly what history do you think has been removed from the curriculum?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not true.
> 
> Exactly what history do you think has been removed from the curriculum?


One good thing is a student can still get world history etc. BA and also graduate history degree at UCLA and other colleges. Which will also include social studies. Taking history out of the grade school is a great lost.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> One good thing is a student can still get world history etc. BA and also graduate history degree at UCLA and other colleges. Which will also include social studies. Taking history out of the grade school is a great lost.


What makes you think history has been removed from grade school? It has not been.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

101pigs said:


> I have known a lot of people who home schooled their children. Most did not get a compute up to date education. Most i know here in the Bible belt that do home education keep the kids at home and they get a lot of teaching out of the bible. That's great however when going for a job today its good to have an up to date education and know computing inside out. I have had 5 different business and have always hired people that had a good up to date education. To me one of the most important things a young person gets from a public or private school is how to get interact with people. Communication in all jobs is at the top of my list. Home school can limit this important skill in a lot of cases.



One of our neighbors 'homeschooled' their child. Mom is a teacher but this child did so bad they never actually graduated from high school. While i think homeschooling is a great idea for some families it is not for everyone.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> What makes you think history has been removed from grade school? It has not been.


Social studies has taken the place of old world history etc. along with other subjects. If you want an education in pure detailed history (which our world was build on) you need to get history books, which includes social studies. Social studies combine 5 different subjects and glosses over a lot in these different subjects including history.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> Social studies has taken the place of old world history etc. along with other subjects. If you want an education in pure detailed history (which our world was build on) you need to get history books, which includes social studies. Social studies combine 5 different subjects and glosses over a lot in these different subjects including history.


Still waiting for you to detail what you think has been deleted. What period of history do you claim is missing?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> Still waiting for you to detail what you think has been deleted. What period of history do you claim is missing?


Sorry i don't have the time to write a book on World history etc. today. You need to go to your local college to get a book on History. World, State, Local, Mid-east etc. Like i stated before many college offer books and courses in history of different countries.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> Sorry i don't have the time to write a book on World history etc. today. You need to go to your local college to get a book on History. World, State, Local, Mid-east etc. Like i stated before many college offer books and courses in history of different countries.


I am aware of that.

However, you made the claim that schools are no longer teaching history which just isn’t true.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> I am aware of that.
> 
> However, you made the claim that schools are no longer teaching history which just isn’t true.


 Social studies include history, and many other subjects. I am talking about a complete course in history like we used to have in elementary school. Which is not in the elementary school any longer. It is included in Social studies which include other subjects. In college if you major in History you get all history etc. which does include social studies. UCLA offers BA and also PhD. in History. I attended McGill university in Montreal, Canada and they have a very good courses in world history etc.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> Social studies include history, and many other subjects. I am talking about a complete course in history like we used to have in elementary school. Which is not in the elementary school any longer. It is included in Social studies which include other subjects. In college if you major in History you get all history etc. which does include social studies. UCLA offers BA and also PhD. in History. I attended McGill university in Montreal, Canada and they have a very good courses in world history etc.


And I am telling you that history is most definitely still taught in the elementary schools.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> And I am telling you that history is most definitely still taught in the elementary schools.


Okay. I understand that . My point is it is under Social studies. Not listed as history by itself.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

101pigs said:


> Okay. I understand that . My point is it is under Social studies. Not listed as history by itself.


So what? Wasn’t listed as history by itself when I was in school either.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> And I am telling you that history is most definitely still taught in the elementary schools.


It is the accuracy and selection of what parts of history that are being taught that is the problem in schools.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> So what? Wasn’t listed as history by itself when I was in school either.


 It is not listed as history anymore. Point being as history it was a main subject. As i mention before. In college you can take history as a main subject and get a complete education in history itself. 
As i said before there are 5-6 grade school in some states that now teaches History as a main subject and also Social studies as a subject also. 

This subject has been debated for the last few years and continues.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

History was a course by itself, it was not a part of social studies when I went to school. Social Studies took the place of civics which was barely touched upon.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Hiro said:


> It is the accuracy and selection of what parts of history that are being taught that is the problem in schools.


That is the reason some schools has gone back to History as a main subject and not as something combined with other subjects. History as a subject under a different name and not a complete History of the whole world is the main subject now that some are trying to correct. You can get a complete world History etc. if you go to college and take History subjects. Not everybody goes to college.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Where is there any school at any level that teaches accurate history?


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

gleepish said:


> Here's a thought, we've removed cursive because it's now considered antiquated--more or less. So with the invention of speech translation devices how long do you think it will be required to actually learn a foreign language, or will that be phased out as well?


With the invention of a lot of things (technology devices mostly), has come the phasing out of many things. In ways, it can be a good thing. But, I feel in others, its not. What I meant by cursive includes penmanship at all, the signing of his own name, simple things like that. He can't write to save his life, let alone spell a word being "taught" to him in school, when hes never asked to write them at all to start with. He's dumbfounded as if english is mostly foreign. But, they take the time to sit and teach him true foreign language. Here soon all the kids will know is LOL, N2M, G2G, TTYL, PLZ, CU, which yes, are "faster" to write, it doesn't take a genius to write those things. It may be something worth knowing at times but, it would be nice to see a bit more important things being taught to the kids in the proper order. Like, he cant TRULY understand algebra, when he doesn't know his times tables. He can't begin another language when he doesnt even fully know his own. You crawl before you run basically, usually, I know there's kids who bypass the basics but, not the majority. They don't even remotely touch these subjects with my son, in the school he's in. It makes no sense to me. I just asked him, he has social studies, not history. I didn't expect much, curriculum is whatever they say is "best or most proficient" and, I'm not one to judge. I just feel like he could have better teachings and, opportunities when it comes to his education, especially during the very first years which pave the way, is the very fundamental foundation for the rest of his schooling, life and, careers. I teach him all I can, the best thing I can give him is direction, knowledge and, experience. But, I wonder where his teacher comes in then? If I must teach him everything, no matter how important, in proper order. I'm not the one with a teaching degree.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I didn't read all the pages. I have a question for the mom of the 3rd grade boy.
> Did you teach him to read or learn any numbers before he started school ? Do you help him understand his homework ? I already suspect that he doesn't have homework.. That is where your responsibility comes in.
> create some pertinent homework .
> your chance of homeschooling is already at hand..
> If he is one year younger than the most of the children in his class, he is at a huge disadvantage.


Yes, yes and, yes. I've actually sat and hand written out practice math homework, the solid then dotted penmanship papers, I'm always creating projects we do together, things of that nature. But im still left wondering what exactly the school is doing rather it be in what they teach or, why they even teach it. He has been at a great disadvantage and, its been the struggle of a life time. Especially when I work 12 hours shifts at times! I teach him most of what he even knows but, as I said, I'm not the one who has the teaching degree or, whos technical job title it is to teach and, I've yet to see him learn anything or, the school to take any time or care in his learning themselves. I've showed up at the school numerous times now, when calling and emails didn't seem to work, I've sat with his teacher, principal and guidance counselor. I've went as far as to call the school board and speak with people there. I mean, its been absolutely obsurd. I believe its possibly just his school. I'm not saying ALL schools are like this. Or that its all teachers, just the curriculum, nothing like that. It must be this god awful school. But, I did wonder if someone else has experience with this or, has any knowledge to help. Which it seems some do thankfully


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

colourfastt said:


> 5+2=?
> 
> 5+_=7
> 
> ...


Math is algebra, algebra is math. I'm speaking of the breakdown of the actual problems as in addition, subtraction, times tables, division and, problems presented in algebraic form, like the ones you posted or harder. But, when he can't do simple times tables or, division and, they present him with an algebra problem or, even something harder, theres no way he truly comprehends it, let alone complete it.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

gilberte said:


> . Wish they had abandoned cursive writing before it was forced on me. Waste of time then (50+years ago) and a waste of time now. Art class was also the bane of my existence at the time.
> 
> IMHO a proper foundation (thank you GTX63) in reading, math, and science is critical. Not so much learning French or Spanish, they all want to come here, let them learn English. So many children born in this country who graduate high school without being able to write an understandable sentence in English and we want them to understand a foreign language as well?


Agreed, I couldn't have said the second part of your message much better myself. 
He does well and really likes most of his side courses like art and, Physically education. He's amazing in those. And they've never even considered showing the children how to sign their own names. But wish for him to speak and write Spanish. This is what makes no sense to me.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Lisa in WA said:


> She also said the cut off in her district is August 1st. I don’t know if that’s state wide or not.
> Kindergarten is so academic now. It’s insane to make a child skip it.
> But that’s a whole other argument.
> I think kids are too hurried.


You are absolutely 100% on my same page here. I couldn't agree more! Of course, my child is the one who was denied kindergarten but I'm agreed on all else as well.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

101pigs said:


> I have known a lot of people who home schooled their children. Most did not get a compute up to date education. Most i know here in the Bible belt that do home education keep the kids at home and they get a lot of teaching out of the bible. That's great however when going for a job today its good to have an up to date education and know computing inside out. I have had 5 different business and have always hired people that had a good up to date education. To me one of the most important things a young person gets from a public or private school is how to get interact with people. Communication in all jobs is at the top of my list. Home school can limit this important skill in a lot of cases.


I completely agree with you. But, that's never been an issue for my son as I've always insisted on socializing him and, its always been a concern in my mind so, its always been priority too.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> On the foreign language thing. First it is easier for young child to learn a foreign language. And it can be a good thing. BUT if there are no native speakers so the child can use it daily in normal course of their life, they wont really learn a foreign language. They will just learn bunch of substitute words for words they know in their native language. Plus some grammer. Meaning with help of a foreign language to English dictionary and lot frustration they probably can figure out how to translate writing in that foreign language, least get gist of it. They wont even come close to fluency to be able to communicate seriously in that language with native speaker. In other words lot work to not be able to do as well as Google translate.



This is absolutely true. However. When a child is exposed to languages they retain an enormous amount even if they do not use the language. This was the case for me as I "learned" French as a very small child when my Grandmother came to stay with us for over 6 months. 

My parents spoke several languages to each other so we also picked up a lot from these as well. But my parents also wanted us to speak perfect English so this was our home language. 

Most of my friends had the same experience with their parents and grandparents and their languages. When it came time for us to study French, German and Spanish at school those of us who had previously been exposed found it very easy.

To keep up with a language is difficult unless you have a really good grounding in the grammar. Speaking fluently is the hardest part and that does take contact with other speakers of the language and lots of practice. You know you are fluent when you just speak without first having to translate in your head from you mother tongue to the other language. 

Reading in the language and watching TV or movies does keep the language alive in your mind. 

Speaking more than one language (and especially those that are popular around the world) opens doors for everyone. Google Translate is fantastic but it is a fairly new system. I am just afraid that it will make people lazy to even learn the simple phrases.


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## NChemungGuy (Sep 5, 2004)

Our son is in 10th grade and told us in English class they're now learning to write in cursive. He and his brother went to a parochial school so they learned it in elementary school, like all kids should. So now it's all review for him. 

I told my wife I feel like the curriculum is so dumbed down anymore these kids are in for a huge shock when they get to college. Unless it's happening there as well.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Your son has an advantage over his classmates and not just that he can write beautifully and not only print. Cursive writing is a great brain exercise. This is from an interesting article.

When directing the writing by hand, the brain has to visually track rapidly changing positions of the pencil and control hand and finger movements. To learn such skills, the brain must improve its control over eye-movement saccades and the processing of visual feedback to provide corrective feedback. Both tracking and movement control require much more engagement of neural resources in producing cursive or related handwriting methods than in hand printing, because the movements are more complex and nuanced. Thus, learning cursive is a much greater neural activator, which in turn must engage much more neural circuitry than the less demanding printing.

The key to learning successful handwriting, whether cursive, italics, or calligraphy, is well-controlled visual tracking and high-speed neural responses to the corrective feedback. Scientists are now starting to study the mechanisms, but not yet in the context of education. Two recent reports, seemingly unrelated to each other or to cursive, examined visual tracking and found results that could have profound educational implications for both reading and hand-eye coordination training, as in learning to touch type.

Visual targets are fixed by saccades. One theory is that the eyes scan the target with a linked series of saccades, in this case the changes in cursive letter structure as the letters are being rapidly formed. We already know that the brain predicts eye movements based on what they see at each saccade fixation. This is how our visual world is made stable, even though the eyes are flicking around; otherwise, the image would jitter back and forth constantly. This suggests that visual image representation is integrated rapidly over many successive saccades. The degree of tracking speed, accuracy, and prediction error must surely influence how well the letters are transcribed during handwriting. The corollary is that the better one learns to write by hand, the better the brain is learning how to track visually.


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## lilcrzi (Feb 5, 2020)

Put it like this, some of his work, I don't even understand and, I'm certainly no idiot. Very far from it. Its not simple algebra at all. Long division and, scientific formulas in the 2nd and 3rd grade really aren't necessary. I think they're over compensating like, they're wanting to be seen as such an amazing school that they force little kids behind their limits and, all the while, never teaching them a single thing really.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

lilcrzi said:


> Put it like this, some of his work, I don't even understand and, I'm certainly no idiot. Very far from it. Its not simple algebra at all. Long division and, scientific formulas in the 2nd and 3rd grade really aren't necessary. I think they're over compensating like, they're wanting to be seen as such an amazing school that they force little kids behind their limits and, all the while, never teaching them a single thing really.


You know I really dont remember when I had to do long division. It was before computers and calculators. I remember having to grind out pages of long division homework which was extremely annoying. 3rd or 4th or 5th grade? Somewhere in there. One thing they beat this into us for so long that I never had problem doing arithmetic of any kind by hand though you bet I would used calculator if one had been available. I think they started with dividing by a single digit number, then moved up to multi-digit numbers. So maybe more than one year of it. I vaguely remember being unhappy having to write everything out under the division problem with single digit divisor rather than just doing it the short way. Now dividing with multi-digit divisor, then pretty much forced to do it the long way.

I guess kids now are allowed calculators on tests? Even if they existed, we wouldnt been allowed them back then. With calculators and computers, think even most phones (even dumb phones) have built in calculator. How would you ever not allow them? You could prevent it in class, but not for homework. And teaching foreign language be hard if kid has access to Google translate and such. Its one thing to have to use a foreign language to English dictionary. But when you can just input your foreign language passage and click translate....


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> what I wonder is how will these kids be able to sign their name? Cursive is very personal.Printing can be duplicated
> *Are they dumbing down the kids on purpose for some reason ?*
> signed..X..


Well, just think....before long we won't have a citizenry who can read the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution for themselves.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> Well, just think....before long we won't have a citizenry who can read the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution for themselves.



Here’s the DOI.
I can’t read it... can you?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> On the foreign language thing. First it is easier for young child to learn a foreign language. And it can be a good thing. BUT if there are no native speakers so the child can use it daily in normal course of their life, they wont really learn a foreign language. They will just learn bunch of substitute words for words they know in their native language. Plus some grammer. Meaning with help of a foreign language to English dictionary and lot frustration they probably can figure out how to translate writing in that foreign language, least get gist of it. They wont even come close to fluency to be able to communicate seriously in that language with native speaker. In other words lot work to not be able to do as well as Google translate.


I used to be able to speak and understand enough French to be able to ask for and find someone who spoke English. Not now, I have forgotten too much. 
And I still can't understand a single word spoken by Jacques Cousteau!

The universal translator in so many scifi tv shows and movies is quickly becoming reality.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

lilcrzi, what state are you in? Many people don't understand that the state has authority over Education in that state. Feds are always talking about education, but only have control where Federal funding is used. 
I taught for years, my last year I taught cursive on Friday because I naturally would write in cursive on the board and my students couldn't read it. I would start printing but end up in cursive. That was the natural way for me to write.
Three years before I retired, the high school sent certificates and a list of names to me at the middle school to enter the name od the students because they wanted my penmanship on them.
I ran in to a former teacher at the doctor a few months back. He said he was talking to another principal that had worked with me and they were talking about my penmanship. The first said I was old school where if it wasn't done right it was thrown out. Funny thing is my cursive isn't near as good as that of my parents. Their cursive was a work of art.








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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Lisa, I can't even see the words on that copy you put up, but I can read it if it is full sized. I also have copies of letters my Grandpa wrote to his parents and to my Grandma before they were married. I can read them as well. Beautiful things to see.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

whiterock said:


> Lisa, I can't even see the words on that copy you put up, but I can read it if it is full sized. I also have copies of letters my Grandpa wrote to his parents and to my Grandma before they were married. I can read them as well. Beautiful things to see.


I think this is interesting.
https://elpasoheraldpost.com/op-ed-kids-dont-need-cursive/


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

"Schools These Days"are more concerned with making little test takers, who can score highly on achievement testing. This allows the school to get local/statewide accolades, which attracts more families with small kids to the district. This also attracts more state grant $$, and tax money from families buying into the district real estate market, and paying property taxes. Don't even get me started about the liberal education agenda, and some of the diversity classes that are now required.

I hate to say that this is a game of $$ numbers, but it sure appears that way.

It's sad to see that proper penmanship is on it's way out in favor of emojis. and "likes"


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Honestly I'm not surprised. I been fighting the schools for 5 years now regarding the education my Autistic step son is getting. They completely pass over the "mentally empaired" kids and just keep passing them on to the next year. My step son is 16 and can barely read on a kindergarten level. When I came into the picture,he couldn't read at all. I started going to his school to find out what was going on and on more than one occasion I found the kids watching TV and not learning. We finally have him in a new school where he is learning and he's starting to pick things up better. It makes me so sad and mad about the school systems these days


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There are challenges at so many levels in our schools. 

I have a friend who has a Downs Syndrome daughter and a fragile diabetic son. The other day, her son was having a low blood sugar crisis, and another student in another area of campus stopped breathing. My friend is an aide in the Special Ed department, so she was called to care for her son while the nurse took care of the other student. It turned out ok, but next time? 

There isn’t enough money for our schools to provide everything our children need. There aren’t enough caring people who want to work for low wages.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

CKelly78z said:


> "Schools These Days"are more concerned with making little test takers, who can score highly on achievement testing. This allows the school to get local/statewide accolades, which attracts more families with small kids to the district. This also attracts more state grant $$, and tax money from families buying into the district real estate market, and paying property taxes. Don't even get me started about the liberal education agenda, and some of the diversity classes that are now required.
> 
> I hate to say that this is a game of $$ numbers, but it sure appears that way.
> 
> It's sad to see that proper penmanship is on it's way out in favor of emojis. and "likes"


I ran into this first hand with my son. He was in the 6th grade and I start getting notes that he was being held back from recess because he did poorly on 'a test'. This made no sense to me at all as we worked with him every evening and he knew the work. So teacher finally says that he just not taking his class work seriously or some such and we tell him flat out... you're grounded until your grades come up. (we were under the impression that all this failing work was lowering his grades, makes sense right?) Then we get a permission slip for a trip to the zoo... We tell him you're not going, you're grounded and I refuse to sign the permission slip. School calls and says he'll have to stay at home if he doesn't go because they don't have the staff to stay behind with him. Oh hell no! I call the superintendent who is as upset as I am over his teacher telling me that he gets a 'free day' as a punishment for poor grades, says send him to me as soon as he gets off the bus. So, we did... and our son spent all day sitting on the floor of the superintendents office cutting out box tops. Skip ahead about a week, we go in for a parent teacher conference and find out the 'tests' he was have issue with were the MAP tests--that have NO EFFECT ON HIS GRADES. My son figured this out and was blowing them off. All of his other class work and tests were A's and B's. When I brought this to the attention of the superintendent, he did step in and make some changes. Luckily all of this took place over about 2 weeks or so and our son didn't spend too much time being punished for imaginary grades... And while we didn't apologize for the grounding, we did explain that he was in the wrong for blowing them off but we also took him and a couple of his friends to the zoo to make up for the missed trip! Our schools have to stop putting so much emphasis on 'the test' and start putting it on our children actually learning.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> There are challenges at so many levels in our schools.
> 
> I have a friend who has a Downs Syndrome daughter and a fragile diabetic son. The other day, her son was having a low blood sugar crisis, and another student in another area of campus stopped breathing. My friend is an aide in the Special Ed department, so she was called to care for her son while the nurse took care of the other student. It turned out ok, but next time?
> 
> There isn’t enough money for our schools to provide everything our children need. There aren’t enough caring people who want to work for low wages.


I know.
In Idaho, our school system was exceptionally poorly funded. Idaho was dead last in the country as far as funding schools. The schools didn’t have enough money to provide textbooks for the kids and had slashed so many programs but when a dentist moved to town with an autistic child, the school had to pony up for a full time, one on one assistant to be by her side all day. I don’t know where the funding came from for that...maybe it was a federal program or something.
I remember when every school had a nurse. Now they seem to be shared between schools in many places.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

54metalman said:


> Things really went down hill when the common core crap into play.


Things really started to go downhill with the advent of the Federal DOE and the rise in power of Teacher's unions.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro said:


> It is the accuracy and selection of what parts of history that are being taught that is the problem in schools.


When our last two boys were in late middle and early highschool I recall much of their ignorance of basic history. I always discussed US and world history with them when I had the opportunity, but it was many times a discussion that had to start from scratch.
I still had my old history books and when comparing them to what they used, which were not history books at all, there were glaring omissions. Yes, more history has occurred; however, additions that were little more than socio/cultural indoctrination with bias does nothing but water down the subject. Some chapters read more like an article from Salon than from historical archives.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> I think I may well agree with you. Cursive may have become obsolete. Of course, older generations are aghast because it’s importance has been drummed into us.
> People can always teach their children cursive themselves.


They used to teach penmanship when I was a tot.
My granddaughter's school started teaching cursive again, but she was already learning it at home.
How will they read some historic documents if they can't read cursive?


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

As a society we seem to be expending more and more of our limited resources on either the very young, or the very old with an ever shrinking portion for those in the middle struggling to provide for them and for themselves.
Can it be very long before we will need to resort to more draconian measures in order to survive? Will we be able to keep "Johnny", or "Susy" in school for 12 years and beyond if they have the IQ of a cabbage? Will we be able to keep Grandpa or Grandma alive at any cost even though they have no hope of regaining or maintaining a reasonable quality of life?
I know it sounds cruel or uncaring but it just seems to me that to continue in the manner that we have been just leads to an ever-and-ever decreasing quality of life, or even continued existence for us as a species.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

lilcrzi said:


> The pressure placed on him is extreme for his age. Yet, they don't teach the little, more simple things. He comes home telling me how he's so stupid because he doesn't comprehend what they are teaching. He struggles just to get passed along anyway, it makes no real sense, not any of it, if its all for nothing anyway. I just got to thinking about it today and wondered how many other parents out there may have ever dealt with this also. I really just wanted to reach out about it and possibly connect. My son has had the worst year of his life this year.


Sounds like my younger son in 4th grade.
He's a smart kid, and does well in life, makes a good living, but 4th grade just about defeated us all.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

My hardest year of school was 5th grade. The most and hardest homework. High standards for everything, including penmanship. Often I was working on homework after 10. Learned more that year than any other, I believe. After that year, school was pretty easy, up to and including graduate school and beyond.


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## snowlady (Aug 1, 2011)

We moved when our kids were in 4th and 6th grades. Son was having trouble getting work and tests done in class on time. When I went to see the teacher about it, it was because she required cursive writing. He had learned it in 2nd grade but the 3rd grade teacher didn’t require it. Then we moved and the new school did require it. The move was literally 4-5 miles, just to get our kids into a better school district.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

One of my granddaughters has an incomplete corpus callosum. That is the neural connection between the hemispheres of the brain. Think Rainman, but not nearly as severe.

My son and DIL found an incredible school in Austin that teaches at the pace she can maintain, and she doesn’t take stupid state mandated tests.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

At 9 years old and in 3rd grade is age appropriate. My daughter is in the 5th grade and is 10 years old. She will be 11 in April. *shrugs* At age 9, their handwriting will ALWAYS be terrible even if they aren't learning cursive. You don't say where you live but in Kansas, they have quit teaching cursive. My daughter taught herself cursive while my older son still hand prints everything he writes and he's in 7th grade. His handwriting is still bad but it's readable. He's struggling with math now. That's his biggest thing but it does not help that all of his classes tend to have 20-30 students per teacher! He does not get individualized one on one teaching. However he's a whiz at computer programming and other things that are computer related. He has taught himself minor computer coding and can and has created several video games on his own while his sister could care less about any of that and she's advanced in math and can do her BROTHER'S math work and she's in 5th grade! Oklahoma has a horrible school system and I suspect a few other states do also. It is often difficult to get a child diagnosed with a disability here in Kansas if it's not an obvious disability.


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