# The "Socialization" issue



## Cheryl in SD

In another thread, this issue was brought up again. One teacher pointed out that homeschool kids seemed to relate better to adults that to their peers. I think she may be right. My sil was homeschooled and was reluctent to hs her children for this very reason. HOWEVER, my sil relates well to adults of all ages now, including those who are her "peers". The condition ends as soon as the peers achieve adulthood. My daughters do have trouble relating to ps children. They think the constant discussion of clothing, use of cell phones, discussion of teenage relationships are silly and they don't relate. This is okay with me. They are mature, well-mannered, confident, hard-working and well spoken young women who are self confident enough to walk away from silly and ill-mannered "peers", even those at church. As those "peers" gain maturity, I am confident that they will relate just fine.

Just my .02.


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## oldcj5guy

I have been around several young teens that were homeschooled and found all of them to be better mannered and well behaved in comparison to other young teens that I have been around. I think they are more of a throwback to the era when almost all households had a parent home all the time and children were held more responsible for their actions.

While I was worried about the whole socializing issue, it seems that I couldn't have picked a better spot to move to if I had planned it for my children to have the opportunity to socialize with others of their age being homeschooled.


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## Elsbet

Yeah, people are constantly talking about how well behaved and interesting my kids are, and then worry about their socialization. ??? We had them in Public School for a couple of years, and it was horrible for them- the kids they were in school with acted like little animals.
Homeschooling offers more natural socialization opportunities than public school does, by far. Where in the world, other than in school, do you only associate with other people within a year of your own age?


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## NEfarmgirl

Sorry to but in but saw the word. I hated that word when I homeschooled!!! All of the homeschooled teens I have ever seen or talked with are so much more mature and are hard workers. My son was not around kids his own age everyday and as I told people that had their opinion when he grows up and goes out into the world he will have to work with people of all ages and he won't be working with people his own age! He was able to experience so much more in the way of social activities that "normal" kids don't get to do. He was willing to walk into an dementia unit in a nursing home and allow people to hug him and he would even hug some without being asked--complete strangers mind you. One lady would scream at me because she thought I was her daughter but hug him--he was ok with it since he understood. When we put him into private school last year he fit in fine and did well in testing--proved to a few people we didn't screw up! I ignore ignorant people when it comes to that subject.


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## Tracy Rimmer

Ah, yes, that "socialization" thing.... nothing is more likely to make my head explode. Seriously.

Okay, so let's look at this. First -- WHAT is SOCIALIZATION?

Well, here are a couple dictionary definitions:

From Merriam Webster:

_Main Entry: soÂ·cialÂ·izaÂ·tion
Variant: also British soÂ·cialÂ·isaÂ·tion /"sOsh-(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n/ 
Function:noun
: the process by which a human being beginning at infancy acquires the habits, beliefs, and accumulated knowledge of society through education and training for adult status_

So, we're training them for adult status within our society, so we park them with thirty other non-adults and expect them to learn how to function as adults? Hmmmm.... okay. Moving right along....

From the Random House Dictionary:

_a continuing process whereby an individual acquires a personal identity and learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills appropriate to his or her social position_

Simply put, I do NOT want my child learning their values, behavior and appropriate social skills from other kids. Have you walked through a public school playground in the past twenty years? It's like _Lord of the Flies_ out there -- so, no. I think not.

Or, my very favorite -- from the American Heritage Dictionary:

_To place under government or group ownership or control.
To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.
To convert or adapt to the needs of society._

Now, I don't know about you, but that first one sounds VERY MUCH LIKE the main aim of public school, but not one I particularly feel is in line with my children's best interests. Come on.... to place under government or group ownership or CONTROL? Yes, that is EXACTLY what I want (not).

To be reasonable, I do recognize that (when talking about the "socialization of homeschooled children") people typically mean the second definition here -- "to make fit for companionship with others; to make sociable" -- but I'd appreciate it if those spewing this particular argument would at least TRY to get the nomenclature correct. I mean, we are talking about EDUCATION here, and my kids do know the difference between SOCIALIZATION and ACQUIRING SOCIAL SKILLS. 

And you don't have to hang out in a group of thirty other kids who are equally inexperienced as you to get those social skills -- as a matter of fact, that's kind of counter-productive.

This argument just about makes my head pop every time I hear it.


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## Jakk

I have to say, this is one of the other reasons that I have decided to homeschool my 13 yr old and 4 yr old. I taught in my 4 yr old daughters CHRISTIAN preschool last year and I definitey did NOT like what I was seeing. I had 14 four year olds in my class I was shocked at how few manners they had, and the sense of entitlement was unbelievable. 

The sense of entitlement is what is driving me nuts with my 13 yr old. My husband calls all her peers little prostitots. 11 yr olds with makeup and their butt crack showing out of their jeans! The sense of entitlement to have not just a cell phone, but an Iphone with internet access, oops, broke another ipod... run to the store mom and buy another one.. with NO consequenses what so ever just blows my mind. I understand wanting the latest gadget or toy, but what about working towards it or saving your own money up for it? That concept is totally lost on most young teens. 

I would prefer to have my kids socialize with kids outside of school, in a dance class or other organized club/sport.


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## brody

I wasn't trying to make anyone's head pop - sorry!

I have no issue with homeschooling at all -so I'm not spewing anything at all - simply making an observation - happy to leave the forum if you want .. homeschooling has a great place in society but the vast majority of folks are schooled through "the system" and I think the best homeschoolers are the ones who make the choice carefully and think through pros and cons .. I can only a slightly different perspective from my view .. but if it isn't wanted I won't be the least offended 

I teach coop ed now - put students out into the real workplace to learn real application skills of what they have book learned - it's FABULOUS .. and it helps students mature and learn about themselves too .. I am NOT a supporter of traditional fit in a box learning and have never been - I went into teaching because the school system failed me miserably and I wanted to change someones experience of education to something more positive than mine .. 17 years I'm still here much to my shock.. but enough of me - back to the issue ...

I do think opportunties to learn how to get along in the real world are important ... and I don't mean needed through school... perhaps 4H, a club, lessons in an area of interest that a parent has no skills in (music for example) 

I don't think being lambasted for checking that someone new to the idea of homeschooling starting with a student in grade 9 has thought of that aspect - whatever you want to call it - is particularly needed .. 

Being mature is fine and well and important but people need to learn how to cope with people - people who are different to them, have different interests and perhaps people who aren't even very nice - I think the teen years with support from home - are an important time to learn those lessons...

just an off track thought ...entitlement is a disaster ...and I think in todays connected society it can be very hard to get away from if you allow contact with kids at all


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## ErinP

Frankly, for me, the bigger concern is socia_lizing_ rather than socia_lization_.

Sure, there are always those who worry about whether kids will learn how to relate to their peers (and I agree with everyone above that I _don't_ want my kids thinking it's normal to have to worry about phones, iPods and hair). 
But for _me_, I worry more about my kids being lonely. 

DH grew up very isolated, simply due to proximity to the world. His folks always lived on ranches in the Sandhills of Nebaska and there just weren't very many kids anyway. Those that were around were pretty far flung and if you're too young to drive you only see them in school. Playing with friends after school just doesn't happen. Sleep overs and things were a rarity. The same is true for _my_ children. DH is well aware that he missed a part of childhood that I took very much for granted. I hate that my own children are missing it too.

I realize most folks on this site think they're "rural" but there are a handful of us who are truly _isolated_. We don't have very many neighbors anyway, and those that are there are usually older... That's just the demographic of the business, afterall.


Homeschool groups are something I _dream_ of. 
Dance class, soccer, or karate? I'd have to drive them nearly 100 miles to do any of the above. 
We had PE with other homeschool kids in the area last spring. (DS is already looking forward to it this year lol) 
I drove him 30 miles, one way, twice a week to get to do it. 

This summer, I drove the kids to the same town, once a week for summer reading program. It was every day for swimming lessons for two weeks.
4H horse practice was at least once a week, with a show every few weeks. 
Last spring I drove DS in to town three days per week (only 12 miles one way) so that he could still do Music and Library with his former classmates (7 kids in the 2nd/3rd and 4th grade combined classroom). 

Yet all of these things are still organized activities. Normal, spontaneous play? That's something that happens at recess. DS misses nothing about school _except_ recess. Even when he and his classmates were arguing about whether they should play ball, or trucks, or build sand cities, at least they were playing _together_.

This year we've moved and no longer have the option of "partial enrollment." I've also added DD to our homeschool. 

The lonely factor is again present in my mind. 
I do worry about socializing...


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## Cheryl in SD

brody said:


> I wasn't trying to make anyone's head pop - sorry!


Which is why I brought it here and actually agreed with you. I think most of us do, our kids may have a tough time with their peers in a ps situation, our family just doesn't think that is a bad thing.  

Your experience could be an asset to the forum, I know several of my neighbors are former educators and if I get stuck they are a wealth of information. I think our (home schoolers) reaction to the "S" word is because it is thrown in our faces every time home educating comes up. "But what about socialization..." is the one thing we are guaranteed to hear somewhere along the line. That's why our collective heads go boom.


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## PulpFaction

Here's a few thoughts from a previously homeschooled child:

I, like most of your children, was very mature for my age and identified best with adults despite weekly (at LEAST) interaction with peers through 4-H or church or other social outlets. For the most part, however, they were other homeschooled kids and so we got on quite well together in our own little world through 9th grade.

At that point, my family moved to a much better school district and my mother, having homeschooled 5 children for too long, decided to give it a shot. At first, I was excited and dreamed a lot about what actually going to school might be like.

It was terrible. 

I had no friends (aside from a few other misfits and outsiders which were probably more detrimental to my well-being than no friends at all,) and now no longer had the time or opportunity to spend with my homeschooled friends. I did not want to learn to get along with the kids at the school and instead of sense of entitlement (which I did eventually developed in regards to academics,) I had the worse superiority complex you would ever dream of running across in a 16-year old girl!

I also hated my parents for a while in there, but that might be owed simply to the fact that I was a teenager.  I blamed them for my inability to make friends and have not only an enjoyable highschool experience, but a mass of problems I've experienced since in regards to relating to others, empathy, nuances of communication, et cetera.

HOWEVER, that being said, would (indeed will I,) homeschool my own children? You betcha.

On the other side of that teen angst, after I dropped out of highschool, I talked my way into a position as an editorial assistant at a national magazine and have never looked back. I realized that while I may have trouble, sometimes, completely understanding where the masses are coming from, my unique outlook and observations are an invaluable asset and I have made every attempt to take full advantage of them.

And yes, I have thanked my parents for their decision to homeschool me many, many times. 

By the way, I finally got my GED last month. LOL Never needed it, just thought it would be kind of funny to have a "diploma" that says Alaska!


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## CamM

I went to public school and found that responsible mannered kids came from parents that care, and homeschooling is really just another version of responsible parenting. The kids who messed around and did nothing probably came from absent families who had more 'important' things to do than ensuring their child's success. I think upon looking around some more you'd find not all PS kids are vain and less mature, and if they are it's because they associate with the wrong people or have dumb or uncaring parents.


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## brody

Cam - you make a good point - I deal with students who are mature and responsible from all walks of life - I have also met one homeschooled child who was,hmmm, difficult as they had done whatever they wanted in all ways without any structure or boundaries until they showed up in my grade 11 class. 
Parenting is the essential piece of raising children. Education has a place but without parenting there is nothing.


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## ErinP

CamM said:


> I went to public school and found that responsible mannered kids came from parents that care, and homeschooling is really just another version of responsible parenting. The kids who messed around and did nothing probably came from absent families who had more 'important' things to do than ensuring their child's success. I think upon looking around some more you'd find not all PS kids are vain and less mature, and if they are it's because they associate with the wrong people or have dumb or uncaring parents.


I agree 100%.
My child is the same kid whether he's in PS or at home. And indeed he _has_ done both. 

Along those lines, I remember reading some little cutesy "you know you're a homeschooler" thing once about how homeschool parents turn everything into a lesson, kids love to learn, you look at wounds under the microscope, etc.. Mind you, at the time I was still happily putting both of my kids on the bus every day. But I was baffled. 
You mean, _all_ parents don't do this stuff?!?! People think this is unique to homeschooling?! 

Oh my... :help:


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## brody

ErinP said:


> But I was baffled.
> You mean, _all_ parents don't do this stuff?!?! People think this is unique to homeschooling?!
> 
> Oh my... :help:


you just hit that nail so hard it only took one whack!!
Education isn't possible to box .. you can learn specific skills in instituations or out of a box 
but an appreciation for learning and looking at the world through OPEN eyes is a pretty holistic thing it seems to me


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## Callieslamb

I believe that today's HS world is quite different than that of a generation ago. There are tons of activities HS kids can do with other kids. There are MORE HS kids around now to interact with. 

I have a DS that had a difficult time interacting. Period. It would be the same if he were PS or HS. He relates to adults better simply because he is being raised alone - just two stodgy adults in the house. He isn't allowed to play the normal video games, doesn't watch the usual TV shows or movies....this is going to make it difficult for him to interact with children that are allowed those things - whether they are HS or PS. 

HS and PS children can both be very well adjusted. I don't agree that HS kids have an advantage. There are too many bad examples from both sides of the issue to have HS or PS be the difference in them. 

I congratulate anyone that has well-adjusted children that interact with others. It is a challenge to raise children like that these days. I am glad I live in a place where parents can make their own choice about what is best for their children - be in Private school, HS or PS. I hope we can keep our country this way with parents in charge of choosing.


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## Cheryl in SD

Soooo, if we are all in agreement that parents should be in control of and are the ones who should be responisbile for and are the ones the create poorly or well socialized children, WHY is this the one question brought up to us every time? Even here, if someone wants to start homeschooling, someone will mention in passing, don't forget to "socialize" them. But once we discuss it, the issue comes back to proper and quality parenting. If this is the case, then why don't we always remind new parents to not forget to socialize their child? Why don't we, for that matter, remind people with parents livinig alone , that their parents meed to be properly socialized. If, as so many of you are insisting this is not a location or method of education issue, why is it an issue that must be addressed every time with only home school parents? 

(Note, please read this post in a curious, questioning voice (mine) not in a sarcastic or argumentative voice. These questions are not meant to provoke only to wonder outloud.)


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## offthegrid

Cheryl in SD said:


> Soooo, if we are all in agreement that parents should be in control of and are the ones who should be responisbile for and are the ones the create poorly or well socialized children, WHY is this the one question brought up to us every time?


Because most people who don't homeschool have no idea what homeschooling *looks like*, and imagine the desks lined up and the mom standing in front of the "class" with chalk in hand...never leaving the house. So these people just repeat the same ignorant comments they've heard in the past, from other ignorant people or on South Park, whatever.

I've been toying with two possible responses to the inevitable question "so what about *socialization*??" The first (and perhaps more polite) is to just turn the question around and ask the person "What does that even mean? What is it you really want to know?" The second (more fun, but definitely more rude) response is to very seriously say..."well....we've been cutting out pictures of other kids from magazines and stuff...and we pretend to have conversations with them. And this year now that dd is in middle school, we'll practice using swear words and tell dirty jokes, like on the bus...you know, that kind of thing. Why, what do YOU do for *socialization*?"


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## Jakk

offthegrid said:


> ..."well....we've been cutting out pictures of other kids from magazines and stuff...and we pretend to have conversations with them. And this year now that dd is in middle school, we'll practice using swear words and tell dirty jokes, like on the bus...you know, that kind of thing. Why, what do YOU do for *socialization*?"


:rotfl:

That is great lol, I will need to remember this one for future use if you dont mind lol..

Socialization is one of the reasons WHY I want to pull my DD out of the public school. She will be starting 9th grade and has NO friends at school. Once in a while a friend will come into the picture but then as quick as they appear, they are gone. My daughter has one friend that she met in kindergarten, then we moved the following year. She sees this friend 3 or 4 times a YEAR. The kid is not someone I would want her hanging around all the time so this works for me. I would prefer to find a way for her to socialize that suits HER. Not what everyone else thinks she should do. 

My daughter prefers to hang out with adults. She does not like younger kids except for her little sister (and that can change by the day). She has no maternal instincts and kids just are not her thing which is OK. I have a 17 yr old with autism who was NOT social at all as a young child, but now is very outgoing.


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## ErinP

Cheryl in SD said:


> Even here, if someone wants to start homeschooling, someone will mention in passing, don't forget to "socialize" them. But once we discuss it, the issue comes back to proper and quality parenting. If this is the case, then why don't we always remind new parents to not forget to socialize their child?


Probably because a lot of people use the term "socialization" to refer to both the act of social_izing_, as well as the formation of social _skills_. 
And while the latter can indeed be accomplished in structured activities like 4H, dance class and karate, the former needs free access to other kids. Spontaneous play _is_ a really important part of child development. :shrug:

So the "socialization" question _is_ a valid one. 
(Though, it definitely falls in the MYOB category. )

However, this is a perfect example of a structured activity (4H horse show) that provides _un_structured play time.


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## frazzlehead

We started Virtual School last year for my son who is now entering grade 8.

He *really* misses seeing his friends every day - although I find it intersting that he uses the term "my friends" but has no specific names ... he didn't really have any close friends in school, except one boy who lived next door to us (which is 10 minutes walk through a pasture filled with cattle) - and they moved away at the end of grade 6. If DS had specific kids he wanted to visit, and they were kids we thought it was good for him to hang out with, we'd make it happen but honestly ... well, as Tracy's tagline says "I've seen the village and I don't want it raising my children!" Most of these kids come from households that have very different value structures (not sayin' it's right or wrong, but it's not the way we do things in our house, that's for sure).

I had to explain this to him just recently, and the way I put it was that after he spent the entire school day (an hour on the bus in, 8 hours at school, and another hour home) marinating in that cultural atmosphere of entitlement, sexual innuendo (yes, it was already thick in upper elementary), and bad attitudes in general, it was hopeless for me to try to rinse that off of him in the couple of hours I had with him in the evenings at home. There was just no way ... so he needs to spend most of his time OUT of that kind of environment, so that when he IS exposed to it, it won't soak in.

He doesn't like it, but when he's not in super-self-pity-mode, he understands my point of view. He himself has pointed out some of the behaviour of his peers and said he thinks it is awful ... kids calling each other really rude names, being hurtful in horrible ways, stuff even a 13 year old boy can see is unacceptable.


Like ErinP, though, we are isolated. I work full time, and so does my husband (although he works at home, which is how it is that we have someone around to supervise the virtual schooling ... but we don't *teach*, it's online school). We are an hour's drive from the nearest main city (where I work - yes, an hour commute each day each way). We do what we can in the community - spend the entire weekend at the fair, go to the movie nights at the local library, attend the family dance - every chance for him to see the kids in the community and hang out ... and the advantage of those places is that there is a broad range of kids there, older and younger, and everyone kind of hangs out together, so it's not *just* the kids in the same grade, you get a mix. We did 4H, but are 'retiring' for at least one year for a number of reasons ... and I'd like to have him in lessons or activities of some kind but the logistics are just crazy. 

We make as many opportunities as we can for him to social_ize_ with others, but when you live as we do at the end of a dirt road an hour from grandma and grandpa's house, with no neighbours in walking distance with kids, and so on ... well, those opportunities are limited.

We do allow him internet access (monitored!) and he can keep in touch with his PS friends that way, and that seems to help some. 

But, yeah, the lonely kid thing is an issue for us. 

As a parent, I had to make a hard choice: none of the options were perfect, and I had to pick my poison, as it were. I hate seeing him lonely, and I try to alleviate it as best I can - which isn't enough, and I know it - but better this than the alternative.

At least I hope so. I suppose only time will tell, but as parents, we have to make the best choices we can with the information we have, and then just keep monitoring the situation and changing things as necessary. 

It's a hard choice to make, and the guilt over knowing that MY choice is making my kid sad some of the time is probably behind some of the "head popping" reaction to the accusation (which is not necessarily intended but somehow I always seem to 'hear it' anyway) of 'not socializing my kid properly'. 

I suppose we'll muddle through as best we can. ErinP, are your kids near the same age as my boy? Maybe they'd like to be email buddies with my son! Virtual contact is better than none - look at all of us here, virtual online friends on HT!


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## ErinP

My kids are quite a bit younger, frazzle...
DD is 8 in November, and DS is 10 in Feb. 

I _so_ sympathize, though. Sounds like you're in the same quandry as us. Homeschooling is both a blessing and a curse. But for now, the blessings outweigh the curses.


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## frazzlehead

Yep, ErinP, the blessings outweigh the curses - just gonna keep repeating that to myself ... and my son!

Found a great article:

http://www.everyday-education.com/articles/socialization-russell.shtml


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## Cheryl in SD

After starting this thread, I decided to make an effort to bring more children here to play with the kids. It has been a mixed bag. The children (mine & their friends) did enjoy it but, me not so much. One tried to kick our dog, repeatedly. The friends did not like that we have chores (overnight guests) but animals still need fed and we still pick up after ourselves even when friends are here. My children now are calling each other rude names (not swear words just rude) and the friends resented being asked to not use those names in my house. I am taking the last boy home this morning and breathing a sigh of relief. Next month school will be back in session and we will be having homeschool events. Whew! I actually enjoy those!


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## Chuck

we went to a missions training center in NC a couple weeks ago - there were about 2 dozen families there, all of whom had homeschooled kids. The hundred or so children played together so well, we didn't have or hear of a single problem all weekend - and most of the time the kids were riding four-wheelers and motorcycles all over the 1500-acre training center - often without adult supervision.

It doesn't take homeschooling to raise smart, well-adjusted children. It takes engaged parents. But homeschooling makes parental engagement sort of a given.


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## ErinP

rose2005 said:


> Children in school rarely have time for recess now anyway. Yes they interact with each other in the halls etc, but their days are long, with homework. When do they get time to be children and really play?


At recess. 
I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the country, but Nebraska school children still get recess _at least_ once per day, twice or more for younger kids.
So far as the rest, like I said, there's a big difference between structured activities and spontaneous play...

And having been a public schooled child also, I agree. There can be loneliness in school also. But it's _much_ more likely in an isolated home schooled child.


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## cindy-e

ErinP said:


> At recess.
> I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the country, but Nebraska school children still get recess _at least_ once per day, twice or more for younger kids.
> So far as the rest, like I said, there's a big difference between structured activities and spontaneous play...
> 
> And having been a public schooled child also, I agree. There can be loneliness in school also. But it's _much_ more likely in an isolated home schooled child.


our "recess" when I was growing up was already replaced by "P.E" at 5th grade. From 5th grade through your senior year, where I'm from, kids do not have a period for social interaction at all. It was the same in TN when I moved there, and I believe it is the same here in WA, too. There is no recess.

FYI - We homeschool and I have a child who struggles with social skills. He had been in a class this year with other kids with the same struggles that was run by an educational psychologist. I thought it would help, but the things the kids in ps are dealing with socially are not at all the same as what my son is dealing with! He stayed in the class because it helped him emotionally to see that he wasn't the only kid who struggled, and that it wasn't a homeschool issue. But he didn't need to know how to deal with bullies in wrestling class! He didn't need to know how to handle it if his peers were routinely shoplifting! (The topics for the class were chosen by the kids based on real situations they were in!) I came away from the experience feeling very relieved that if I was going to have a child who was struggling socially, at least he wasn't having to deal with that! It made me ask the question, "socialized into what?" What my son really wanted to know was the skills to go deeper in relationship with other kids. What the "social skills" class was teaching was how not to get killed in school! Dumbfounding!

Cindyc.


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## ErinP

> our "recess" when I was growing up was already replaced by "P.E" at 5th grade. From 5th grade through your senior year, where I'm from, kids do not have a period for social interaction at all.


Not even at lunch?? If nothing else, older kids should be having time to talk to one another at lunch... 

More importantly, recess isn't really age appropriate for older kids anyway. (Though I find it sad that 5th and 6th graders are denied a recess). For that matter, my concern, that of spontaneous play isn't really age appropriate anymore, either. :shrug:


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## NEfarmgirl

I agree that the parents will make our break their kids when it comes to how they act around others. 99.9% of homeschoolers in this area have parents that care deeply about their children and want them to succeed in life. There are kids in ps that have parents that care and you can tell. Then there are the ones who don't have time or really don't care and their kids run wild. Any more a lot of kids are staring at a cell phone pushing buttons to communicate with other kids that may be standing right beside them since texting in the new way to talk--very sad. Our niece has a cell phone at the age of 10 and she texts her friends--rarely talking to them face to face. She goes to a ps and has a hard time talking to others. Her mom is the same way. We had gone out to eat and all of a sudden my phone is making noise--she was texting from across the table.


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## TurnerHill

People ask the question because it is a perfectly valid one.

We have three kids. One is too young for school, one is homeschooled, one goes to public school. We made the decision about whether to homeschool each child based on what was best for that child.

I believe strongly that unstructured play time with peers who are not siblings is absolutely vital to a child's development. And most homeschooled kids don't get enough of it.

It drives me wild when I see other homeschool parents depriving their kids of normal interaction with other kids because of those parents ideological biases and stereotyping of "typical" kids. It's just wrong.


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## Cheryl in SD

But I don't see ps children getting unstructured play time with other children either. Our local ps has recess once a day for 15 minutes. They have lunch for 30, but quite a few of the local kids walk home for lunch (usually eating at home alone because both parents work). The only really unstructured time is the ride to and from school. Parents are encouraged to put their children into after school activities and they have about two hours of homework a night after 4th grade, when does this allow for unstructured play?

I just reviewed the handbook from our local school district. Unless you ride the bus, students are asked not to arrive early or remain on school grounds after the school day. The 15 minute recess period is not enough time to even begin playing. A bus ride is not a good environment for play. There may be a few minutes at lunch, but how does one play in a few minutes? 

Yes, homeschool children should have opportunities to play with others, but so should ps children and I don't see them getting it either. To this end we formed a local co op. We have classes but left one entire 2 hour block of time un-structured for the children to just do "stuff". We have not had problems with children bullying or fussing (other than the little boys teasing the girls). They just have fun.


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## cindy-e

Cheryl in SD said:


> But I don't see ps children getting unstructured play time with other children either. Our local ps has recess once a day for 15 minutes. They have lunch for 30, but quite a few of the local kids walk home for lunch (usually eating at home alone because both parents work). The only really unstructured time is the ride to and from school. Parents are encouraged to put their children into after school activities and they have about two hours of homework a night after 4th grade, when does this allow for unstructured play?
> 
> I just reviewed the handbook from our local school district. Unless you ride the bus, students are asked not to arrive early or remain on school grounds after the school day. The 15 minute recess period is not enough time to even begin playing. A bus ride is not a good environment for play. There may be a few minutes at lunch, but how does one play in a few minutes?
> 
> Yes, homeschool children should have opportunities to play with others, but so should ps children and I don't see them getting it either. To this end we formed a local co op. We have classes but left one entire 2 hour block of time un-structured for the children to just do "stuff". We have not had problems with children bullying or fussing (other than the little boys teasing the girls). They just have fun.


Yes, that is the point I was trying to make earlier, there really isn't time for kids to "hang out" in the public schools of which I am familiar either. I remember being required to have "assigned seats" in the lunch room and on the bus as early as 5th grade to keep the crowds under control! 

Cindy


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## bluefish

Ditto here with the recess. You get two 15 minute recesses up til 3rd grade. One in 4th grade then nothing but lunch. Lunch is 15 minutes heavily supervised, then 15 minutes around the track, supervised. It didn't used to be so bad, but we SO much meth and such around here and all those peoples' kids are WILD. Violent wild, so NO unsupervised activity at all. They are even escorted to the bus. And I live in a small town in the middle of Wyoming.

On another note, my daughter is 7 and homeschooled. We do try hard to get her out and about for playtime with friends. Some supervised and some not. One of her favorites is soccer. One thing I noticed, is that even at 5, when she started, these kids have their 'cliques' and if you're not part of that, you don't hardly exist. At 5 YEARS OLD! These kids are in daycare from day 1. They already have their 'friends' and their 'groups'. And, judging by the experience with foster kids in the PS system, they never change. It's really kinda scary. If I sent my daughter to PS, I don't think she'd have any friends there. She would always be the loner. So I think the socializing part really depends on your situation. We don't live out in the middle of nowhere (assuming you don't count Wy as the middle of nowhere  ) but in a lot of ways, we might as well. Even if I didn't homeschool, since my dd did not go to daycare, there would be no one for her to play with.

That got a little rambly. Sorry.


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## Elsbet

When my kids were in PS, they had 15 minutes of recess, and usually, because of bad behavior in their classes, they, the whole class, had to spend that whole time walking or running laps. They were not permitted to talk to each other. There was no unstructured play time at all.
My kids have a lot of unstructured time with other kids- more than many PS kids have. They play with our neighbor's grandchildren- one of them is several years younger than they are, one is right around their age. They play with kids from our church- various ages. They play with our doctor's kids (also homeschooled.) But I don't think it is normal or natural or "unstructured" to have kids play with other kids exactly their age. And if the only socialization a child gets is with their siblings... why is that any different than playing with the kid down the road, or in their classroom? 
Honestly, our struggle is more with making sure the kids have some alone time to destress from social interaction with us, each other, and other people. Kind of a mental/social detox time. It's hard to find those times.


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## cindy-e

Yes,
My homeschooled kids spent the day with another family playing at the park and picking black berries. Then they came home and one of the boys came with. He just left. The girls in the fam are coming over both Sat and Sun of this week to hang out with my girls. And even my socially challenged boy is currently at the movie theater with some friends watching Shorts. Even though not all of the kids at the movie with my son are homeschooled, nor are they all of the same faith, or of the same native language, or of the same ethnicity either for that matter, one of the parents of those children whose kids are ps kids will eventually ask me the inevitable question: "But what about socialization?" :shrug: Mark my words. It will happen! Even when "socialization" is clearly happening, by anybody's definition, because your kids are not in public school, you'll still repeatedly, at every opportunity, get asked that question. That is why homeschoolers get a little nuts about the "socialization" question. Just the sheer volume of times asked, and sheer assumption and presumption in the question about what you do with your time, and who you do or do not socialize with. It gets really tiresome.
FWIW,
Cindyc.


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## hobbyfarmer

We homeschooled for 5 years. Our oldest DD chose to attend PS when she entered high school last year (she was a PS student until the 5th grade) and that went well so we allowed our younger DD (3rd grade- always homeschooled) to enroll this year. 

During the 3rd grade orientation night, she had friends and their parents, whom she had met at church, through girl scouts, and softball stopping by her classroom to ask her how she was liking school so far. I think 4 different families peeked into the class room during the teacher's 15 minute introduction. More girls stopped in after the teacher finished.

When the other kids had filed out and DD and I were the only ones left in the room, the teacher actually said, "Mrs. Embry, I need to know if your daughter has been socialized at all." Seriously???? Did you MISS all these people stopping by to offer her encouragement? There was no one peeking in to check on any of the other children! 

Socialization happens, for us, every day. I got really tired of hearing that word and I believe homeschoolers are far too often wrongly assumed to be isolated.


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## TurnerHill

The thing is, many homeschoolers ARE isolated. Having one foot in both camps, as it were, we see it often.

And very often, that isolation is intentional. It is not even uncommon to see a homeschooling parent proud of the fact that their child has little or no contact with other children. This is often expressed with some self-justifying carp like, "I'm trying to raise my child into an adult, not a child. So why should she/he need to spend time with children?"

Part of unstructured play, so far as I am concerned, is that it be an activity the child has chosen himself, carried on with peers who the child has chosen himself. Too many homeschooling parents just cannot bring themselves to relinquish that level of control.

There are limits, of course. I don't let my kids play with matches, or with the human equivalent of matches. But I do let them get dirty and grass-stained, and play with the human equivalent of dirty and grass-stained.


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## Cheryl in SD

Interesting, TurnerHill. In our community 2/3 of the children are homeschooled, I know not one family that feels or acts that way. In the bigger town near us I personally know close to fifty homeschool families, I know one family that is what I would call isolated. I also know the family and their children have serious health and allergy issues, the isolation is a direct result of this and even they participate in 4H as much as possible. 

I have been homeschooling for 10 years and have known only one family that should not have been homeschooling and heard of one other. In both cases it was not a lack of socialization that was the trouble, it was lack of parental committment to the children and their education.

I am sure there are parents who are isolating their children, but none that I personally know.


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## Tracy Rimmer

I think that the home schooling culture in parts of the US must be very different than the home schooling culture in Canada. I often hear about these "unsocialized" children on forums like this, but I've been doing this for over ten years, and I have yet to meet one. I've met UNLIKEABLE children, spoiled children, but never children who were incapable of interacting with others.

However, I have met children who are acquiring their education in PS system who can't speak to adults, who grunt to communicate, or look at you blankly when you address them. I've even met children who rudely ignore you, but I have yet to meet a home educated child who is "unsocialized" -- if we're using this term to describe this behavior.

I have met home schooled children who aren't in the least interested in talking about the latest fashions, who would rather talk about current events in the news -- which I think sets them up for wanting to interact more with adults than with some of their publicly educated peers, to whom adults are the enemy, and the kind of jeans you're wearing dictates whether or not you're worth speaking to, and who couldn't tell you the name of a foreign leader if their life depended on it.

To be fair, I've met a lot of very interesting, intelligent, well-spoken young people who are publicly educated. Most of them are either honor roll or the outcasts -- sometimes both. 

I have a great deal of respect for parents who choose what is in the BEST INTEREST of their child -- whatever that may be. Yes, there are people who should not be home educating, just as there are children in the public system who should not be there. Every parent owes it to their child to consider what is in their best interest (and this may vary from sibling to sibling) EVERY year, but I just don't see how socialization and public school are related if the parents are doing their job as parents.

Which, I suppose, proves that "socialization" is not an EDUCATIONAL issue, but a PARENTING issue. Home education is an approach to academics -- as public school SHOULD be. The problem is, we've allowed the government to take over so much of our parenting role that people automatically assume that home educating can't possibly produce a NORMAL human being.

To sum it up, if parents are doing their job properly, it doesn't matter where your child is getting their academics, acquiring social skills will not be an issue.


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## ErinP

I would point out that this topic really took shape because of frazzle and I's concerns with our geographically _isolated_ homeschooled kids. 
Those of you who are fortunate enough to have co-ops, soccer and ballet, etc. obviously do not have this problem. Lucky you. :shrug:

_My_ kids got far more social_izing_ in school than they do at home.

(BTW, just to toss in, my husband, due to his area, as well as religious affiliation, knew a number of homeschooled kids when he was a kid. Several different families, and he was one of those kids that got along with everyone. He hated having to play with several of the kids because he says they were mean. I've tried pointing out that that probably didn't have anything to do with homeschooling, but he still carries that association just like many here do about public school...)


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## rxkeith

i think people ask the socialization question out of reflex, and just not knowing enough about the home schooling process. our son is now 5, and will be home schooled/unschooled. my experience in the detroit public school system was a lesson in survival, at times. my son does not need nor do we want that type of socialization. he will be an independent thinker, and knowing my wife, will be one of the most socialized kids on the planet. they will be going to a unschooling conference in dallas next week for starters.
the home schooled kids we have met seem at ease with adults, and kids of different ages. you could hold conversations with them that gave more than one or two word responses. 
for us, socialization is a non issue.


keith


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## ErinP

No. It's not. 

As I've already stated, it's a trade-off. 
And for now, the quality of education they're receiving at home, trumps the fact that they get more socializing at school. For the moment, the blessings outweigh the curses.


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## hobbyfarmer

ErinP said:


> No. It's not.
> 
> As I've already stated, it's a trade-off.
> And for now, the quality of education they're receiving at home, trumps the fact that they get more socializing at school. For the moment, the blessings outweigh the curses.



For the first few years, it was the same with us. Unfortunately, we live in an area with very few homeschoolers and too far away from major cities to take advantage of many extracurricular activities. Our church family was not supportive of our decision to hs so even though the children were getting socialization time with the youth there, it was not always a positive experience. We eventually found activities like girl scouts and summer sports that our girls could participate in and that is alot of the reason they begged to attend PS. Constantly hearing their PS peers telling them how much they would "hate" to be homeschooled did influence our children whether we liked it or not. Honestly, even though the kids seem very happy with their new situation, I don't know that I would allow as much outside involvement with PS peers if I had it to do over again.

All the same, when our children were not involved in peer group activities, they were still involved in other things. Family, friends, and the occasional volunteer opportunities provided plenty of socialization, imo. Neither of my kids have had any trouble making friends and fitting in at the PS. That makes it clear to me that there never was a "lack of socialization". 

My point in my earlier post was that even if you are geographically isolated, your children may not be socially isolated. That is where the mistaken assumptions concerning homeschool families come in, I think. Kids do not need daily peer socialization to thrive. Family is what is most important anyway!


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## cindy-e

You know, the other day there was a lady at a cook out we went to... She was talking about those "homeschooled" kids. Didn't know my kids were homeschooled. She said parents homeschooled because they just couldn't bring themselves to "let the kids go". Then she said that her young (not school age) daughter was playing at the park, and some older homeschooled kids were playing on a peice of equipment. Her young child was watching them. The hs kids stopped and asked this child if she would like to join in. The mother, when relaying the event, said, "I mean, who does that?!" (in disgust!) "These poor kids were so lonely that they were asking a little kid they didn't even know to play with them. " She said she could point out homeschooled kids a mile away because they were so wrongly socialized. But she never was able to point out my homeschooled kids! We homeschoolers can't win for losing! Here these hs kids at the park were "socializing"/relating to another kid in a way that I interpret as just being kind to someone smaller than you, and she interpreted it as the kids being unhealthy and lonely! When did kindness become unhealthy? I guess that is my problem with the whole "socialization" argument. There is no way to answer it that satisfies people who have already decided that homeschoolers are not socialized even when they see healthy interaction right before their eyes! Also, if socialization means that it is abnormal for kids to be nice to a child who is younger than them, why would anybody want that for their kids? 

I think the socialization question is fundamentally flawed. Everybody is socialized into something unless they live alone in the woods with the wolves (and then they would be socialized by the wolves!) The better question, IMO, is what are they being socialized into? And is that socialization in their best interest? We hs'ers actually get looked down upon because our kids are not socialized *in the same way* as ps kids in spite of the fact that for the most part, our kids are healthy human beings. Our familes, and often our kids, have made different choices because of who we/they are. So yea, maybe the look different or talk different. But there is a huge assumption in the idea that this would be different if these "poor kids" were simply put in ps! To me, their differences prove only that they would not be the "popular" kids in school if they were there, and that because they are not there, they are free to pursue their interests without any stigma attached to them and without suffering the embarrassment of being - I dunno - let's pick the computer geek who is serious about academics who will one day be the boss of that popular kid because of his work ethic and his intelligence. He doesn't have to learn to be afraid of people. He will be a better boss. That does not make him unsocialized! He will still be a part of the computer club, the math club, likely virtual classes with other kids in them... well, and the neighborhood? Churches and civic organizations? Since he is serious about academics and wants to go to college very badly, he will take the time that he could be spending dodging wedgies in the stairwell at the local high school, and apply it to volunteering in the community so that he can have that to put on his college applications. And nobody will ever call him a geek or a nerd, or get physical with him, or whatever. I just don't understand why that is wrong. Different, yes. But wrong? They are learning to deal with people, but more gently. They don't have to be told that they are different than the "crowd" at age 6! 

And while we are on the subject... name me one "average", "just like every other kid", person who did *not* "follow the beat of a different drummer" who has had much impact on his or her world? Leaders, real leaders, real avant guard thinkers, are fundamentally different! You read their bio's and the few who went to ps, you will find really didn't fit in very well! Many, many felt lonely as a kid, no matter what environment they were in, especially the more creative types! There are a few exceptions, I'm sure. Most rules are not hard and fast. But why would I want my kids to be in an environment which creates "exactly the same", (and let's be honest - that's what the socialization argument really is - discomfort with people who are different) when they can be *brilliantly* different? Naturally themselves? Guilt-free geeks? Happily creative aritists? Political afficianados? Avant guard activists? Kids coming from ps - by percentage - who are any of those things are rare. Homeschooled kids, who have never had to spend a brain cell on what the tag says on their jeans unless fashion is their passion - are quite often these types of people at the end of the journey. I know doctors who were homeschooled, and lawyers, and animators, and computer programmers, and musicians... none of them were affected ill by the lack of the high-school-created-false-corporate-identity that society finds to be "normal". And colleges, who actively recruit homeschoolers now see that too! They want homeschoolers because of their differences, not in spite of them! 

I agree that isolation is a different thing than socialization. But I would challenge the idea that isolation in a "good" environment is worse than socialization in a "bad" one. If you have a great ps without a lot of drug problems, or gang problems, and in which people who think outside the box are accepted - by all means use it! If your kid's strength is that he or she is mr. or mrs. social/ belle of the ball/ life of the party, and you are ok with that, by all means let them go to ps. But don't buy the lie that you are doing your kids a dis-service if they are thriving at home because they have fewer social contacts sometimes. What they have is also a gift! They have more time to explore their world, and their own thoughts... Like Whitman, or Thoreau, or Robert Frost... alone in that snowy wood in the evening. What would the world be like without them? And really, would you rather your kid have a letter jacket, or a sense of self?

My 5 cents (because it is so long, sorry.  

Cindyc.


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## TurnerHill

Thoreau and Frost were both public school teachers. Just sayin'.


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## ErinP

*chuckle*
And Whitman was openly gay. 

Though I see you point, cindy (except the letter jacket. Haven't figure out where that ties in...) 
But I don't think most of you really understand what it means to be so rural. :shrug:
That's OK. I won't hold it against anyone.


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## Tracy Rimmer

TurnerHill said:


> Thoreau and Frost were both public school teachers. Just sayin'.


Actually, Thoreau was fired as a teacher, and he ended up opening a small school which offered "progressive education" rather than the traditional classroom concept. He was a strong proponent of the theory that children are ACTIVE learners, and learn more by exploring their world than if they were forced to "conform" by sitting in a regular classroom.

And while Robert Frost WAS a teacher, he spent most of his "teaching" years as a college professor -- a little different than teaching elementary aged children.


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## ErinP

rose2005 said:


> If you are unhappy about your children not having any time with peers at all, yet you still wish to homeschool, have you thought about taking a day to travel as part of your homeschooling, or moving?
> 
> Rose


My husband is a cowboy, Rose. We live where the job is.
And I think you're misreading my posts. I didn't say my kids didn't have any time at all. I said they don't have as much time as they did when they were in PS. 

And yes, we travel. In fact, we probably travel more than most. lol It's 50 miles to the grocery store, afterall. 
However, that doesn't do anything to provide _unstructured play time with peers_. :shrug:


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## cindy-e

ErinP said:


> *chuckle*
> And Whitman was openly gay.
> 
> Though I see you point, cindy (except the letter jacket. Haven't figure out where that ties in...)
> But I don't think most of you really understand what it means to be so rural. :shrug:
> That's OK. I won't hold it against anyone.


While I am openly a Christian too, I don't think that Whitman's gender orientation negates his impact on society.  A fact is a fact. 

The point of my post Erin was to encourage you, and maybe to vent a little, honestly. I know you left "the system" over academics and not social issues, but still... Maybe you have a world changer over there! You get to raise an independent thinker.  Don't kill yourself worrying about what he doesn't get. Focus on what you can give him. When/if it becomes important for him to be back in that situation again, you'll know that. For now, it is what is it, and maybe that isn't so bad.  

You are right, I am not as rural as you are, but I was once. I figured out eventually that my kids were not the ones who were lonely.  They were happy with the wide world as a playground once I stopped telling them that they shouldn't be.  I am Reminded of Laura Ingalls Wilder. Isolation did not do her much harm, nor did it harm many, many other pioneer children. I think your kids will likely be OK too.  

FWIW
Cindyc.


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## TurnerHill

Tracy Rimmer said:


> Actually, Thoreau was fired as a teacher, and he ended up opening a small school which offered "progressive education" rather than the traditional classroom concept. He was a strong proponent of the theory that children are ACTIVE learners, and learn more by exploring their world than if they were forced to "conform" by sitting in a regular classroom.
> 
> And while Robert Frost WAS a teacher, he spent most of his "teaching" years as a college professor -- a little different than teaching elementary aged children.


Robert Frost did a significant part of his writing while a teacher at Pinkerton Academy, in Derry, NH. Where my brother happens to be a teacher.


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## Tracy Rimmer

I'm not arguing with you, TH -- I'm simply saying that neither one of them really taught in the type of public elementary situation that we're talking about here. Both of them saw -- and expressed -- the benefits of alternative education.


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## maps1350

Didn't read it all, but read most. WOW!

My Dh and I both went to private, public, and homeschool. Between the two of us, including the HS, we attended over 15 schools throughout our k-12 careers. He learned ALL about heroin, and I learned ALL about premariatal sex. We learned children are bad things. We learned ways to cheat, lie, steal, and get out of any troble we might have gotten into. To be fair for the socialization issue.....if it weren't for that 15 minutes of recess in tenth grade, I wouldn't hve met my DH. 

Fast forward a fwe years to raising our kids. We have always homeschooled. We chose it to begin with because we honestly felt I'd do a better job at teaching them. Ask any teenager if they remember anything they learned a week after the test was given. They aren't teaching kids, they are teaching them to take tests.

So now comes the socialization issue. Which first off.....why exactly would I want my kids learning what we learned in our socialization in PS? Secondly, with four kids in five years, every night around here is like a sleep over...heaven forbid they EVER just stop talking and giggling and go to sleep!!!!! Third....school is not for socializing...it's for learning. Just like work isn't for socialzing...it's for working...if you happen to share a few words during lunch break....great...but you're not their for friendships...you're there to work. Fourth....we're in the middle of trying to cut some socializing OUT....we're WAY too busy. Which, from my unstanding, is pretty common with HSers.

We've got three kids and myself in Tae Kwon Do, which is twice a week and we practice daily. The other child who's too young for TKD does gymnastics twice a week....and he practices daily. We've got one practice and one game of a given sport at all times. WE just finished up basketball and we're off to soccer. With the ages of my kids, that means that I've got two different teams to deal with, and two o fmy kids are "playing up" to the age group of the child that is just older than them...grouping the 4 and 6 YOs in the 5/6 team and the 7 and 8YOs in the 8team. Sports get changed every 6 weeks. But either way, we've now cover 5 days of our week (gymnastics is held with one day in common with TKD). 

Then of course, there are piano lessons (which I don't teach, although I do teach them guitar), and swimming lessons...both of which we only do once a week, and is done on the same day. From April through October, we go swimming at least 3 times a week at the community pool, and in the school months during that time, there are ALWAYS other HSed kids and younger children there too (we go mid afternoon after school and chores, before other extra-curriculars). Between 4-6 (extra curriculars start after 6) M-F, we've got at least 4 other kids over at our house playing with mine. And then the weekends, which, if we don't have anything planned, they will be playing with their friends who are mostly PSed on this street (we've got about 10 other little boys my kids ages.....it's crazy!). 

Don't forget the summers....free Thursdays at museums....$5 days at the aquarium.....$1 family summer fun movies every tues morning....etc, etc, etc.....and I don't think we've gone to ONE of these things without at least two friends hopping along!

That's what *I* do. And we have to drive aways as well...we're in the Houston area, but north and in a suburb...which means a bit of driving. The other parents that I know that are not HSing....with moms who stay at home....it's a HUGE deal if they go to the park ONCE during the summer. We're busy year round and most of the fun stuff, I'm bringing along THEIR kids so that they can have the same advantages my kids have. Most other parents rather not do anything...they are too tired. I get that. I'm sitting here on my third cup of coffee this morning. But my kids are only young once. And I like hanging out with them. Some days it's overwhelming to have so much going on. But it's just a phase. They were once all babies. They will soon all be gone. I will enjoy this family time while I can. 

And BTW.....this isn't just me and the kids.....4 months a year, DH is invovled in everything we are...the other 8, we Skype. lol We get 1/3 of the time as full time quailty family time. 

Socialization of the HSer? yeah....too much! lol But I guess when it doesn't take you 8 hours to do school daily, you have more time to be the best soccer mom you can be! lol

April


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## ErinP

> Just like work isn't for socialzing...it's for working...if you happen to share a few words during lunch break....great...but you're not their for friendships...you're there to work.


This is a whole 'nother issue and probably should have it's own thread somewhere, but I find this thinking sad, actually. Friendships formed at work are a _big_ part of what makes a work environment either enjoyable or miserable. And only sharing words during a lunch break? I think I'd be miserable immediately. What type of job is this that doesn't allow regular communicating between co-workers?? 

But the rest of it just reinforces my point that those of you in/near cities have _far_ more opportunities than those of us who live in rural areas. (though apparently that's the draw back for public schools. From the sounds of things, any kids who go to school in cities and suburbs must be complete degenerates. I just can't imagine it. Our schools are pretty innocent, it seems).

cindy--
I guess I just feel guilty. 
I wish my kids could socialize as much as _I_ do. I have Bible study and TOPS every week. (LOTS of socializing there. lol), Quilt Guild once a month, and book club... Yeah, everything has a basic format, but there's still plenty of "unstructured play time" because being adults, we make sure we fit it in.

And like I keep saying, homeschooling is both a blessing and a curse. But for now, the blessings definitely outweigh the curses. And both kids have gotten to the point that they realize some of their closest friends _wish_ they were homeschooled, so they think they're lucky, too.


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## maps1350

Erin....as I stated, I have to drive 30 min anyways. We're looking at purchasing land out "in the country". Funny thing is...where it's located...it'll take the same amount of time to get everywhere we go as it does here....and here we've got a Target on the closest corner. But here, there' traffic. So driving 15 miles takes 30 minutes. Or, in our proposed rural community....driving 30 miles takes 30 minutes. And we'll probably get better gas mileage as well.

April


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## CamM

ErinP said:


> From the sounds of things, any kids who go to school in cities and suburbs must be complete degenerates. I just can't imagine it. Our schools are pretty innocent, it seems).
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch. I thought I was a pretty stand up guy. Anyway, socialization's all in the kid. I sucked at socializing and kept to a small group of friends who didn't do the 'typical' public school stuff; therefore, while 50% of college students are dropping out and favoring alcohol over good grades, we are doing quite well. My parents were the same way.
Click to expand...


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## ErinP

rose2005 said:


> So why can't your children get together with other children while you are at Bible study, or go to their own Bible study? Why not form a club or group for your children taking into account their interests and invite others? As you manage to socialize, you must have other humans around you.....therefore children too..right?


I'm not sure why I keep trying to explain this, because I know most of you simply _won't_ understand because you have no experience with it, but I'll try one more time... 

Rose, I'm the youngest person in any of my organizations, by a long shot (except once-a-month book club, and the kids _do_ get to go along to that). Ie, no one else has younger kids, except, fortunately, in book club. Such is the nature of living in a region that has been experiencing out-migration for decades...
(and so far as my kids' group associations, I'll assume you've read my other posts so I don't have to relist.  )

But I'm not talking about being out in "the country"... 
I'm talking about living in an area where there are _12 kids_ in the 4-12 year old range in the western half of our county (an area of about 400 square miles). 
It's not just distance. It's _population density_. 

Like I said, most people here think they are rural, but they simply do not understand what it means to be _really_ rural. 

And I'm not upset or irritated or anything that you guys don't get it. 
But I truly don't know how to make you understand that this is _not_ a case of not thinking outside the box or not wanting to seek opportunities, or not seeing other options that are available... :shrug:


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## ErinP

*chuckle*
This is it:


> there are 12 kids in the 4-12 year old range in the western half of our county


Like I said-- I know you _can't_ understand, but I won't hold it against you.


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## ErinP

rose2005 said:


> Ug. What I am trying to say, badly obviously  is that if YOU think that they would get more socialization in public school, (hence the post I copied), that must mean that there ARE children within bus distance from you, so why not get together with those children? Do they ALL go to public school?
> 
> Another question. Your husband was unhappy living so alone as a child, so what does he think about raising your children the same way?


No, he wasn't unhappy. He just thinks he missed out on a lot that other kids take for granted. And "bus distance?" I'm not sure what you mean by that...
But yes, they all go to public school.

I've mentioned PE with the "other home school kids in our area." That "area" is a circle of about 50 miles in any direction of the town we drive to. (Ie, our group brings in about 12-18 kids from an area of about 7,500 square miles)


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## frazzlehead

Wow, ErinP, 12 kids in a 400 square mile radius??? Zoinks, you are not kidding you guys are isolated. Next time my boy says he's lonely, I'm gonna describe that to him!

My son's PS class had 17 kids in his grade, and all those kids are within about a one hour bus ride from the school ... so we actually have a thriving community of kids compared to your situation!

I suppose, like with so many other things in life, it's all about making the best of what you have. So, yeah, it's lonesome being away from other non-family-kids-your-age, and the kids do miss that ... but someone earlier mentioned the Ingalls family, and I've thought often about that kind of life - if your family hangs around with you, well, even if it's not your companion of choice, at least you have someone to hang out with and play with and such.

That part is often hard for us, because both DH and I work full time, and we are, quite frankly, very tired when evening comes around, and making time to play really takes effort. It is important though, and it really does seem to help when we make time to do stuff together - kid stuff, particularly.

I suppose that's about the only mitigation you have available - that, and to empathize with your kids when they say they are lonesome. I have found it (somewhat) helpful to tell my son that I understand that he misses his friends, and I'm very sorry he is lonely. He knows why we home school, and he agrees with the choice from an academic standpoint - so ... a bit of empathy goes a long way.

It's one of those 'teachable moments' that comes up regularly in our house, where we talk about how life isn't always exactly the way you want it to be ... so the trick to beign happy is to figure out how to enjoy what life has given you, instead of focusing on what it is you haven't got.


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## Drew Cutter

Everyone in my church home school. I went to PS . It seems that the girls who are home school have a hard time when they are in their 20's. When they start thinking about who to marry . It seem safer or maybe better if they date others who have been home school. The parents really have a hard time with who the girl decides to date. I realize all parent do. But the home schooler are not exposed to the sexual part of PS . The girls have hard time even with young women their own age who went to PS. The PS young women don't have problems with premarital sex , etc . Thoughts .


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## offthegrid

Drew Cutter said:


> Everyone in my church home school. I went to PS . It seems that the girls who are home school have a hard time when they are in their 20's. When they start thinking about who to marry . It seem safer or maybe better if they date others who have been home school. The parents really have a hard time with who the girl decides to date. I realize all parent do. But the home schooler are not exposed to the sexual part of PS . The girls have hard time even with young women their own age who went to PS. The PS young women don't have problems with premarital sex , etc . Thoughts .


Maybe this has more to do with church than homeschooling? Not trying to be offensive but there can be a very big difference between secular and non-secular homeschooling, depending on region, community, etc. As a secular homeschooler living outside a medium-sized city, we don't really expect to have any of these issues.


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## Cheryl in SD

Erin, I got it the first time. I used to live 28 miles north of Wall, SD. My dh was trucking & we had no children. It was lonely! Beautiful, quiet, wonderful but very lonely. All the children in the entire area went to the country school, they had 12 students. 

My cousin lives north of Hyannis, NE. His girl's went to ps. They were the only two in the school. Parts of Nebraska, South Dakota, Wyoming and North Dakota are still really "that" rural. 

We are strong home school proponents. BUT if we still lived that rural, I don't know that we would be. OTOH, my in laws hs my sil living out north of Wall (where there were 12 students), mom got her involved in the 4H and she made friends with the other kids and where they went to school wasn't an issue. They played after school and on weekends.

My only suggestion would mean driving, but how about once a month or so on Friday night, you arrange a sleep over at your home for some of the ps kids? Life doesn't have to be about where they go to school. You could arrange to pick the friend up after school and drop them home Saturday or at church Sunday (or in town Saturday). Oe invite the whole family out of a Sunday afternoon. Our neighbors up north would travel quite a ways for some neighbor time.

*READ FIRST- This part of this post is to try to figure out what Drew was saying. I do NOT believe all hs children are pure (I know it to be untrue and too broad a generalization), but I think it MAY increase the odds in families that feel it is important nor am I saying that all ps students aren't (also too broad a generalization and untrue)- again a parenting issue, each family will ultimately decide their moral limits. * 

Now to Drew's post. 


> Everyone in my church home school. I went to PS . It seems that the girls who are home school have a hard time when they are in their 20's. When they start thinking about who to marry . It seem safer or maybe better if they date others who have been home school. The parents really have a hard time with who the girl decides to date. I realize all parent do. But the home schooler are not exposed to the sexual part of PS . The girls have hard time even with young women their own age who went to PS. The PS young women don't have problems with premarital sex , etc . Thoughts


Taking this out of sequence -


> "The girls have hard time even with young women their own age who went to PS."


Do the PS girls have trouble with the HS girls also? Our church has this trouble but it seems to go both ways. I have seen HS girls reach out and be rejected by PS girls and PS girls at a loss with HS. Once they are married and have children it seems to even out. (Or all get to working and/or college.)

Now to the rest of Drew's post - 

Drew, are you saying that homeschool girls are hard to date because they say no more readily or don't know how to say no? What do you mean, they haven't been exposed to premarital sex so have trouble, are you referring to after marriage or before? This statement puzzles me, "The PS young women don't have problems with premarital sex , etc." You are meeting these young women at church and almost every religion I know states that sex is an activity limited to *after * marriage, Christian, Islam, or any otherm it doesn't matter which, they consider it wrong. But if I am reading this right, you are saying the trouble with home school girls is that they want to follow this tenet of their religion, so ps guys are having a hard time dating them? (Please tell me I am mis-reading your post.)

As for having young men around to date/marry, again, this is a parenting problem not a location of school problem. As children age the parent needs to make opportunities to meet other young people of similar age, background, faith, etc. This is why we go to camp with our kids, do co ops, ski days etc. and will look for other opportunities to have them around other young people. The young people do need to know how to interact with a wide variety of other people, including those of the opposite sex. And parents should be aware of this, regardless of where they are educated. Having standards and morals should NOT be a hs/ps issue and if it is, parents are falling down on the job but *this* particular trouble (if this IS what you are saying, Drew) isn't with the home school parents but with the parents and children who have lowered the standard so greatly that being pure before marriage is considered so foreign that we need to send our kids to school to be sure they aren't. 

_(I have trouble even writing that last sentence because I can't really believe that's what Drew said but it sure sounded that way.)_

Drew, if what I just wrote IS what you are saying (hs girls are undatable because they don't want to have premarital sex, so send them to PS to "fix" this problem), then, yes, most of the fathers of home school girls in your church are going to have problems with ps boys dating their daughters. The truth is that ps girl's fathers in your church should also. Perhaps a visit with the pastor/priest about what the ps boy's faith teaches on premarital sex is in order. 

If on the other hand, you are simply stating that they are shy & uncomfortable around guys, it may mean the boy/young man needs to try a little harder to come up to standard if the girl is worth it. And this is something hs parents should be aware of and providing opportunities to work on (the shy, uncomfortable part). 

(I had to read Drew's post wrong. Right?}


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## Cheryl in SD

offthegrid said:


> Maybe this has more to do with church than homeschooling? Not trying to be offensive but there can be a very big difference between secular and non-secular homeschooling, depending on region, community, etc. As a secular homeschooler living outside a medium-sized city, we don't really expect to have any of these issues.


Exactly! You just said it from the secular viewpoint.


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## offthegrid

Cheryl in SD said:


> This statement puzzles me, "The PS young women don't have problems with premarital sex , etc."
> 
> (I had to read Drew's post wrong. Right?}


Maybe he meant "the PS young women don't have _a problem with_ premarital sex" ? :lookout:


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## Cheryl in SD

offthegrid said:


> Maybe he meant "the PS young women don't have _a problem with_ premarital sex" ? :lookout:


I tried reading it that way, too. 

I decided that wasn't any better. Either way you read it, one group of young women or the other aren't following their faith and it would appear the boys aren't either or its making life miserable for the young men.


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## offthegrid

I'm just glad we don't have to worry about this yet. My 11 year old dd "likes" boys, especially boys in movies...as in..."OMG...look...he's soooooo cute!" but in real life would *much* rather hang out with girls. My 7 year old dd thinks all boys with no shirts are "GROSS" and will loudly tell you this, even when said shirtless boy is within earshot.


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## ErinP

rose2005 said:


> Have no clue what the solution would be.


Thanks for "hunting", but truly Rose, we're fine the way we are.  
Like I keep saying, it's a trade-off and for now this is the best option.



frazzlehead said:


> He knows why we home school, and he agrees with the choice from an academic standpoint - so ... a bit of empathy goes a long way.


Yeah, that's pretty much where we're at, too, frazzle. Both kids agree with the reasoning, but that doesn't prevent them from being a bit lonely now and again. 



> I used to live 28 miles north of Wall, SD.


Yes Cheryl, you _do_ get it.  
In fact, my husband's family all lives out by New Underwood and Hermosa. But he lived north of Whitman, NE (northeast of Hyannis) during his elementary years.
And yep, that's what we do for socializing. Host sleepovers about once a month a so. In fact, we have two of DS's buddies and their younger sister, DD's bud, coming out Labor Day weekend. Not to mention, the afore-mentioned activities like HS PE, 4H, etc. 
Like I keep saying, it's not like they don't _ever_ see other kids, it's just nothing like they got when they were in school.


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## meanwhile

Making a decision not to have sex can be secular too. Our family is secular and we Homeschool 3 boys. They do not have sex because it is "stupid" to do so at a young age when there are other things one should be doing. It is also disrespectful to one's self, the other person involved and presents way too many problems for young people to deal with. All kids, Homeschool or otherwise Schooled, need for adults to speak up and let them know it is OK not to have sex and to get busy doing other things. 

As for the isolation and lack of resources/ friends, I feel for you. We have dealt with that problem too and just this year are tackling it head-on. Our youngerst son has not played with same age peers for over 5 years. There are no kids his age around our farm. We have now moved part time into the City for him to have more opportunities. We are fortunate to be able to do that. I am thankful.

I hope things improve for you and your family. Good luck.


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