# One reason America won't willingly abandon fossil fuel cars for electric ones



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

The Sunday paper had an article about the push to get totally away from fossil fuels to wind /electric by 2035. One of the older guys said the later Generation X and Millennials would be more of a barrier to the goal than the remaining Baby Boomers.

When I asked why he explained that while the remaining Baby Boomers and the early Gen X population who share many baby boomer values and attitudes and many still use 3G flip phones , landlines and drive 25 to 30 year old vehicles and have golf carts they use as first generation electric vehicles, the back end of the Gen X and most all of the Millennials share the "I want it now and I want it fast" mindset , be it their iPhone , movie streaming speed or computer overloaded 10 year old gasoline powered vehicle capable of going 100 mph and can be fueled at a gas station in a matter of minutes even if fuel is $6 and they always have a reason to justify the cost.

He says that he can't see the "I want it now!" folks willing to spend hours recharging electric cars unable of the high speeds they want

He did say that by 2035 wind turbine electric production might get a toehold provided other environmentalists or folks not wanting their landscape views tainted by wind turbines NIMBY block them. 

When he added that a majority of Americans can't afford new cars every 7 to 10 years and those non golfer RVers with golf carts to drive around campsites he has known often have problems affording replacement battery banks for their carts every 4 or 5 years after keeping their RV homes maintained.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Shrek said:


> ... He says that he can't see the "I want it now!" folks willing to spend hours recharging electric cars unable of the high speeds they want


I drive a plug-in hybrid that accelerates 0-60 in 10.2 seconds. Maybe not the world's fastest acceration, but faster than anything I drove in the 1970s or 1980s.

I normally set my cruise-control at 82mph on the interstate. How fast is needed?

Teslas drive at over 250mph.





> ... When he added that a majority of Americans can't afford new cars every 7 to 10 years and those non golfer RVers with golf carts to drive around campsites he has known often have problems affording replacement battery banks for their carts every 4 or 5 years after keeping their RV homes maintained.


He once saw, some other electric device, that did some other thing, and that relates to this topic somehow.

Just tell him that when he sucks on his crack pipe, he needs to avoid inhaling so much. It is clearly messing with his head.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> I drive a plug-in hybrid that accelerates 0-60 in 10.2 seconds. Maybe not the world's fastest acceleration, but faster than anything I drove in the 1970s or 1980s.
> 
> I normally set my cruise-control at 82mph on the interstate. How fast is needed?
> 
> Teslas drive at over 250mph.


Why does a Tesla need to go 250?

The improvements in gas mileage made over the past 50 yrs is almost all due to the fact that vehicles are now lighter. It has almost nothing to do with the computerized efficiency of engines. E = 1/2 mv^2. Driving lighter uses less gas. Driving faster increases energy use by the square of the velocity....If you drive your Tesla at 250, you'll only do it for about 10 minute before the battery goes dead. ( 5 if you have the heater on)

The little Geo was getting 50mpg 40 yrs ago without putting any demand on the electric grid. --But greedy lawyers & the EPA put them out of business.

I'm not sure I agree with the author of the article., although I can see his argument. I think he's underestimating the stupidity of the younger generation. They are sheep that will do what they're told, then rationalize it (Festinger's Theory of Cognitive Dissonance).


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

doc- said:


> Why does a Tesla need to go 250?


I have no need to go over 250mph.

That was in response to someone who obviously lives under a rock and thinks EVs can not go fast.





> ... The improvements in gas mileage made over the past 50 yrs is almost all due to the fact that vehicles are now lighter.


The single biggest increase in fuel mileage I am aware of has been from Regenerative Braking.





> ... If you drive your Tesla at 250, you'll only do it for about 10 minute before the battery goes dead. ( 5 if you have the heater on)


Lets step away from meth-fueled fantasy for a minute to speak reality.

When I drive in EV mode, the A/C can be running, or the heater, or the defrost, none of these have any effect on fuel mileage or on driving range.

Having the heater on still has no effect on battery life.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Hopefully they'll soon have more rapid charging. If not, there will be a problem.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This is much too much thinking.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 2/1/21 8:23 PM CST

Jenn,
The charging time required is a pain. My maintenance man told me about his neighbor who's wife inherited an electric car when her aunt passed away in May after buying the car in September of 2019.

The guy's wife drives about 70 miles a day round trip to work and her husband told him she often forgets to charge it and one day when it died from lack of charge, their road service they had with their car insurance loaded it on the rollback not following the proper dead EV loading / unloading procedure and messed up something that although her aunt had paid in full when she bought the car, ended up costing about $2000 in non covered expenses he and his tow service settlement had to cover because proper procedure in loading wasn't followed.

My maintenance man said that his neighbor told him although the car survived the improper load and unload at their house that when it wouldn't charge and he called the dealer, their rollback driver disengaged what should have been done on the initial rollback tow home and said they were lucky the car didn't catch fire.

She still has her inherited EV but when she got a raise, she bought herself a 6 cylinder sedan and is trying to sell the electric car.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

Shrek said:


> The Sunday paper had an article about the push to get totally away from fossil fuels to wind /electric by 2035. One of the older guys said the later Generation X and Millennials would be more of a barrier to the goal than the remaining Baby Boomers.
> 
> When I asked why he explained that while the remaining Baby Boomers and the early Gen X population who share many baby boomer values and attitudes and many still use 3G flip phones , landlines and drive 25 to 30 year old vehicles and have golf carts they use as first generation electric vehicles, the back end of the Gen X and most all of the Millennials share the "I want it now and I want it fast" mindset , be it their iPhone , movie streaming speed or computer overloaded 10 year old gasoline powered vehicle capable of going 100 mph and can be fueled at a gas station in a matter of minutes even if fuel is $6 and they always have a reason to justify the cost.
> 
> ...


So much wrong in this post.

The main idea is correct, but the reasons are goofy.

I would love an electric truck and muscle car.

I can't afford one. Get me a 3/4 ton 4x4, crew cab with 450 mile range that I can "fuel" up in 15 minutes, and make it cost 25,000 bucks, I'm in. And I need to tow 15,000 pounds.

I can buy a low mileage fuelie one now for 30,000 or a more used one for 15,000.

If they mandate it, does anyone think the price will go down? If the government is also trying to go electric, why make it affordable.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Shrek said:


> Posted 2/1/21 8:23 PM CST
> 
> Jenn,
> The charging time required is a pain. My maintenance man told me about his neighbor who's wife inherited an electric car when her aunt passed away in May after buying the car in September of 2019.
> ...


The Lowe's employees can't keep the electric forklifts charged. Had to wait over an hour to get a dryer. They had propane ones running all over the place. No they had to plug up the electric one!!!


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

This is just a crazy thought. Why not let the consumer decide whether they want to buy an electric vehicle or a gas/diesel vehicle? 

If they make an EV with a battery that will last more than 10 years reliably, that charges up in under 2 or 3 hours, heck I might buy one. But, probably not because it will have some gizmo that I can't fix.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

TripleD said:


> The Lowe's employees can't keep the electric forklifts charged. Had to wait over an hour to get a dryer. They had propane ones running all over the place. No they had to plug up the electric one!!!


Is this connected to the OP in some context? 

If you end your work shift without plugging your toys in to charge, you can not expect them to be charged for your next shift.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Hiro said:


> *Why not let the consumer decide whether they want to buy an electric vehicle or a gas/diesel vehicle? *


Because then this administration would loose control. We stupid people don't know what's the best for us. You can't control the masses if you let us think for ourselves.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

ET1 SS said:


> Is this connected to the OP in some context?
> 
> If you end your work shift without plugging your toys in to charge, you can not expect them to be charged for your next shift.


Seems like a example of being able to replace a forgotten empty propane bottle in a couple of minutes and then being able to take care of the customer. No such choice with electric.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> Festinger's Theory of Cognitive Dissonance


I like learning stuff.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> I have no need to go over 250mph.
> 
> That was in response to someone who obviously lives under a rock and thinks EVs can not go fast.
> 
> ...


You are disillusioned. Where do you think the energy is coming from to run the car heater in an EV?...Yours is a hybrid, so you're using the heat waste of the ICE to heat.

Re-generative braking captures some the of the kinetic energy wasted as heat in braking-- conventional ICE's don't do that. ..I repeat-- most of the improvements in gas mileage made over the last 50 yr is due to the fact we now drive 2000 lb cars instead of 5000 lb cars.

BTW- your hybrid is probably in the $30K range. You could have bought a model similarly equipped but as a standard ICE for about $20K....Driving 12,000 mi/yr at 30mpg and $2.50/gal would cost you $1000/yr in fuel in the ICE...and $600/yr in the hybrid (plus electricity costs)... That means with that fuel savings, it'll take you 25 yrs to make up the dif in the price you paid....Smart....You'll argue with me-- Festinger's Theory in practice.

In regards battery charge times-- the faster you charge, the shorter the battery life and more energy wasted as heat in charging...There's always trade-offs.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I love facts


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

doc- said:


> You are disillusioned. Where do you think the energy is coming from to run the car heater in an EV?...Yours is a hybrid, so you're using the heat waste of the ICE to heat.


That is NOT correct.

My cars make heat even without running their ICE. Heat and cold comes from a heat-pump. Not from any water cooling system.

Running the A/C in the summer, or the heat, defrost and seat heaters in winter has no detectable effect on fuel mileage.





> ... Re-generative braking captures some the of the kinetic energy wasted as heat in braking-- conventional ICE's don't do that. ..I repeat-- most of the improvements in gas mileage made over the last 50 yr is due to the fact we now drive 2000 lb cars instead of 5000 lb cars.


The dealership says otherwise.

I also post on a couple forums dedicated to folk driving EVs.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The Volkswagen XL1 is a two-person limited production diesel-powered plug-in hybrid produced by Volkswagen. The XL1 car was designed to be able to travel 100 km on 1 litre of diesel, while being both roadworthy and practical.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> That is NOT correct.
> 
> My cars make heat even without running their ICE. Heat and cold comes from a heat-pump. Not from any water cooling system.
> 
> Running the A/C in the summer, or the heat, defrost and seat heaters in winter has no detectable effect on fuel mileage.


It's a Festivus Miracle!!....
What powers the heat pump? ...You either gotta supply the energy from the ICE or the battery.

A "heat pump" is simply an AC unit..If you blow the hot exhaust to the outside, it leaves cool air inside.. If you blow the exhaust inside, it warms the space....If yours doesn't make use of the ICE cooling system, it's wasting energy.

I laugh at how stupid engineers are...The first hybrids used the smart & simple technique of having the vehicle run off the electric motors at speeds under ~30mph, and automatically switching to the ICE at higher speeds...But I guess that was too simple and didn't provide enough intellectual gratification to the engineers (They seem to thrive on mentalmasturbation.)..They had to make it more complicated (and expensive.)..Now they go thru all the complex gyrations of computer controls that do the very difficult co-ordination of running drive wheels getting power from both the ICE and the electric motors simultaneously.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

A lot of people aren't thinking about where the electricity to charge those cars is going to come from in the first place.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

thesedays said:


> A lot of people aren't thinking about where the electricity to charge those cars is going to come from in the first place.


Every car will have a solar panel right on its roof and a wind turbine built in where the radiator is now. No need to plug in.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Every car will have a solar panel right on its roof and a wind turbine built in where the radiator is now. No need to plug in.


I am still waiting on flying cars


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I am still waiting on flying cars
> 
> View attachment 93594


You don't have long to wait. Aeromobil








Flying cars airport of the future to land in England


An airport for flying cars will thrust the English city of Coventry into the future later this year, with a project aimed at demonstrating how air taxis will work in urban centres.




www.reuters.com


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

painterswife said:


> You don't have long to wait. Aeromobil
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool looking drones.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Advances in aeronautical engineering during WWII had everybody extrapolating that to the near future and thinking it wouldn't be long before flying private planes would be common...But growth of all sort seems to follow the logistic equation-- that sigmoid curve most of know from population studies..where slow growth leads to a rapid expansion phase followed by a flattening of the curve as further growth becomes limited.

We should remember that it was a mere 67 yrs from the first flight at Kitty Hawk to landing on the Moon...We haven't been back to the moon in 51 yrs.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

doc- said:


> I'm not sure I agree with the author of the article., although I can see his argument. I think he's underestimating the stupidity of the younger generation. They are sheep that will do what they're told, then rationalize it (Festinger's Theory of Cognitive Dissonance).


It's the younger generation and the millennials pushing for this "clean energy" and the "global warming" fiasco.

I'm not sure how many of this younger generation and millennials will become "motor heads" in their older years. Refurbishing the 1989 car that they bought from somebody's back yard.

I will say this though - if you truly agree with the "green new deal" - as in no gasoline, oil, natural gas, coal, etc - start living it now. If your house is heated with natural gas or propane - shut it off. If it's heated with electric using natural gas or coal, shut it off. You won't be able to use a car or public transit - as they use oil and gas and pollute the environment. I guess you will have to use a bicycle to get around.

And no, I don't know how you are going to heat your house. Because you have eliminated natural gas, oil, and coal from your use. (And you can't put in a wood burner either because it pollutes the air too!)


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Michael W. Smith said:


> It's the younger generation and the millennials pushing for this "clean energy" and the "global warming" fiasco.
> 
> I'm not sure how many of this younger generation and millennials will become "motor heads" in their older years. Refurbishing the 1989 car that they bought from somebody's back yard.
> 
> ...


Don't forget that you shouldn't fly or buy any product that is distributed by air or conventional trucking/train/ship and don't ever, ever eat any meat or anything grown more than a mile away delivered by hand cart. But, hypocrisy usually just goes one way....from my observation.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I just keep wondering how submarines will work with solar power and what length of time.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Wolf mom said:


> I just keep wondering how submarines will work with solar power and what length of time.


They will work fine, all the way to the bottom............


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

doc- said:


> Advances in aeronautical engineering during WWII had everybody extrapolating that to the near future and thinking it wouldn't be long before flying private planes would be common...But growth of all sort seems to follow the logistic equation-- that sigmoid curve most of know from population studies..where slow growth leads to a rapid expansion phase followed by a flattening of the curve as further growth becomes limited.
> 
> We should remember that it was a mere 67 yrs from the first flight at Kitty Hawk to landing on the Moon...We haven't been back to the moon in 51 yrs.


Wonder what mileage rating would be required by the government and green people to make such a trip currently ? And under what category. It would not be the city or highway ranking currently used.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Every car will have a solar panel right on its roof and a wind turbine built in where the radiator is now. No need to plug in.


I have asked several people in the industry about roof mounted solar panels and keep getting the same answers. The roofs don't provide enough surface to allow for fully changing the batteries. Of course they would be useless to car owners who park in garages. 
I don't know if a turbine would be practical.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

There is no battery fairy.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

HDRider said:


> The Volkswagen XL1 is a two-person limited production diesel-powered plug-in hybrid produced by Volkswagen. The XL1 car was designed to be able to travel 100 km on 1 litre of diesel, while being both roadworthy and practical.
> 
> View attachment 93590


What a cute car. Of course it would be useless 6 months out of the year where I am because it doesn't have enough clearance to get over lumps and bumps of snow, or to get through any ruts in dirt roads.

Actually, it looks like it can't go over speed bumps in the grocery store parking lot.

But it sure looks cute.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael W. Smith said:


> It's the younger generation and the millennials pushing for this "clean energy" and the "global warming" fiasco.
> 
> I'm not sure how many of this younger generation and millennials will become "motor heads" in their older years. Refurbishing the 1989 car that they bought from somebody's back yard.
> 
> ...


We can evolve into a polar bear like mammal. Then we don't need no stinking heat.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Wolf mom said:


> I just keep wondering how submarines will work with solar power and what length of time.


Put paddle wheels on them.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> What a cute car. Of course it would be useless 6 months out of the year where I am because it doesn't have enough clearance to get over lumps and bumps of snow, or to get through any ruts in dirt roads.
> 
> Actually, it looks like it can't go over speed bumps in the grocery store parking lot.
> But it sure looks cute.


Ha - I didn't even notice the "clearance" on it. Yeah, it probably wouldn't do well here in North-West Pennsylvania - where during the winter - you might be pushing snow with that car - well . . . . . I don't know even know if it COULD push through snow. And then like you said, you have the frozen humps, bumps, and chunks of frozen snow.

And yeah - the speed bumps around here might saddle it.

And then of course, we have wildlife. I've found out even with my Subaru Impreza, it doesn't have the clearance for groundhogs and raccoons. And good grief - imagine trying to straddle a dead deer in the middle of the road. It would catch under the car and you would grind it away as you continued on down the road!!!


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

The "New Green Deal" with be a mandate for the masses, not the elite. They will still show up to the climate accord meetings in their Leer Jets, and limos.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

CKelly78z said:


> The "New Green Deal" with be a mandate for the masses, not the elite. They will still show up to the climate accord meetings in their Leer Jets, and limos.


And new 1%ers will emerge. Heck, I may get back into it. I already have all the crook contacts still. Maybe they won't remember that I called them that on my way out the door.


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## Ferretman (Feb 1, 2021)

painterswife said:


> You don't have long to wait. Aeromobil
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While that is admittedly pretty cool, that's *not *a flying car. It's an airplane that lets you drive on the ground.

A flying car is the DeLorean from "Back to the Future". 


Ferret


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

doc- said:


> You are disillusioned. Where do you think the energy is coming from to run the car heater in an EV?...Yours is a hybrid, so you're using the heat waste of the ICE to heat.
> 
> Re-generative braking captures some the of the kinetic energy wasted as heat in braking-- conventional ICE's don't do that. ..I repeat-- most of the improvements in gas mileage made over the last 50 yr is due to the fact we now drive 2000 lb cars instead of 5000 lb cars.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not someone just linked this on one of my hot rod sites. People complaining about their Tesla and running the heat shortening battery life. It made me think of this thread. 









Dropping to 50% of range with heater on at 72F and with one person.


I have 8 month of old with 8K+ miles on my 75D and this is my model x first winter experince, my miles range is dropping 50% with heater on even with one person in car, I have been experiencing this issue for last 4 weeks, did anybody experiencing same with Model X or it is a known issue?




forums.tesla.com


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

America has not willing abandoned 10 mpg fossil fuel cars in the past. Did not abandon cars without safety devices, not even seatbelts. What happened is the government willing mandated the changes, the manufactures changed their designs and Americans started paying more. Same thing is now happening with the electric cars.


Pretty much a reflection on the poor voting habits and other issues with a lot of the voters.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> Why does a Tesla need to go 250?


'casuse it is FUN

When I win the Lotto ( and I keep telling myself that I will if ever buy a ticket) one of the first things I will do is buy a Tesla, and than learn to drive it- FAST!

GO BABY!


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> 'casuse it is FUN
> 
> When I win the Lotto ( and I keep telling myself that I will if ever buy a ticket) one of the first things I will do is buy a Tesla, and than learn to drive it- FAST!
> 
> GO BABY!





B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> 'casuse it is FUN
> 
> When I win the Lotto ( and I keep telling myself that I will if ever buy a ticket) one of the first things I will do is buy a Tesla, and than learn to drive it- FAST!
> 
> GO BABY!


Let me save you some money (and possibly grief)-- Having raced Formula Ford, driven motorcycles & famous Italian exotics on the unregulated Autostrada, I can assure you that at any speed over about 90 you have no sense of how fast you're going...All your attention is focused on keeping it on the paved parts with rubber side down.

Working a gear box, using heel & toe, trailing throttle braking into four wheel drifts at speed is fun...Pressing your toe to an accelerator & just steering isn't even driving.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> 'casuse it is FUN
> 
> When I win the Lotto ( and I keep telling myself that I will if ever buy a ticket) one of the first things I will do is buy a Tesla, and than learn to drive it- FAST!
> 
> GO BABY!


What is the fastest you ever drove?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> Let me save you some money (and possibly grief)-- Having raced Formula Ford, driven motorcycles & famous Italian exotics on the unregulated Autostrada, I can assure you that at any speed over about 90 you have no sense of how fast you're going...All your attention is focused on keeping it on the paved parts with rubber side down.
> 
> Working a gear box, using heel & toe, trailing throttle braking into four wheel drifts at speed is fun...Pressing your toe to an accelerator & just steering isn't even driving.


I have driven around Charlotte Motor Speedway at about 175. What you say is true.

I have driven cars through the long flat roads out west at 120+. Scary stuff.

I drive a Harley so my motorcycle speeds have been rather slow.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

I used to drive fast. 

These days I commonly end up being the guy doing 50 on the back roads heading home.

I'm not even old yet. Just in no hurry.

That being said, if an old dude is going 50 in front of me, he better hurry up, I got places to be.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> Let me save you some money (and possibly grief)-- Having raced Formula Ford, driven motorcycles & famous Italian exotics on the unregulated Autostrada, I can assure you that at any speed over about 90 you have no sense of how fast you're going...All your attention is focused on keeping it on the paved parts with rubber side down.
> 
> Working a gear box, using heel & toe, trailing throttle braking into four wheel drifts at speed is fun...Pressing your toe to an accelerator & just steering isn't even driving.



That is what I mean by "learning how to drive it". The acceleration must be incredible out of the turns.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

thesedays said:


> A lot of people aren't thinking about where the electricity to charge those cars is going to come from in the first place.


 I know that when I get home is on one thing "Where's my beer!" 

(Plug in, plug what in...)


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Michael W. Smith said:


> It's the younger generation and the millennials pushing for this "clean energy" and the "global warming" fiasco.
> 
> I'm not sure how many of this younger generation and millennials will become "motor heads" in their older years. Refurbishing the 1989 car that they bought from somebody's back yard.
> 
> ...



I don't know if this is right. I sometimes have to drive down to Portland, OR and their are a lot of Prius owners in the middle age bracket. (and they are a pain in the a$$. They intentionally pull in front of you if they feel you are going too fast, or have a truck)


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> That is what I mean by "learning how to drive it". The acceleration must be incredible out of the turns.


Sorry if I was a little harsh in that last post...but I get that all the time on this auto forum I go to once in a while-- young guys who don't know how to drive a standard trans car (ie- don't actually know how to drive at all) who apparently get thrilled by the acceleration of an EV. Big deal. If that's all you want, strap a rocket on your back.

Racers talk about going "10 10ths"-- that is it's not the actual speed, but getting everything out of a vehicle up to its limit, whether that's at 70mph in a Fiat 132 or 220 mph in a Lamborghini Countach.--driving it to the point where the rubber is just on the edge of losing grip. 

Drivers in Portland-- that's obviously because they are Liberals and know better than you what's good for you and insist you follow their rules.....I would use a more specific anatomical reference in describing them, but Liberal will do for polite society.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> Sorry if I was a little harsh in that last post...but I get that all the time on this auto forum I go to once in a while-- young guys who don't know how to drive a standard trans car (ie- don't actually know how to drive at all) who apparently get thrilled by the acceleration of an EV. Big deal. If that's all you want, strap a rocket on your back.
> 
> Racers talk about going "10 10ths"-- that is it's not the actual speed, but getting everything out of a vehicle up to its limit, whether that's at 70mph in a Fiat 132 or 220 mph in a Lamborghini Countach.--driving it to the point where the rubber is just on the edge of losing grip.
> 
> Drivers in Portland-- that's obviously because they are Liberals and know better than you what's good for you and insist you follow their rules.....I would use a more specific anatomical reference in describing them, but Liberal will do for polite society.


Agreed!

I used to drive a VW Bug. Was always trying to be as efficient as possible. It made it a bit more interesting driving a car that could barely go 60 mph, down hill, with the wind at it's back, drafting a semi, ha ha ha!


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

doc- said:


> Drivers in Portland-- that's obviously because they are Liberals and know better than you what's good for you and insist you follow their rules.....I would use a more specific anatomical reference in describing them, but Liberal will do for polite society.



More than once I considered not slamming on the brakes...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> More than once I considered not slamming on the brakes...


I drove a vehicle that was looking for an accident for 3 years. Never had the opportunity to have a slow reaction. Bought a new vehicle and had 2 such incidents driving it home!



Rodeo's Bud said:


> I used to drive fast.
> 
> These days I commonly end up being the guy doing 50 on the back roads heading home.
> 
> ...


Too funny! I passed someone who couldn't decide if he (she?) wanted to drive 35 or 50 on a slushy road in a 55 mph zone. But the next night coming home after dark I went 50 on that same road. My excuse is my car is too expensive to use for deer hunting.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Rodeo's Bud said:


> I used to drive fast.
> 
> These days I commonly end up being the guy doing 50 on the back roads heading home.
> 
> ...


Dang young whippersnappers barreling along at 50mph! Slow down before you kill somebody, 25mph is fast enough.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Agreed!
> 
> I used to drive a VW Bug. Was always trying to be as efficient as possible. It made it a bit more interesting driving a car that could barely go 60 mph, down hill, with the wind at it's back, drafting a semi, ha ha ha!


We ran an old Datsun B210 full blast on the Autobahn. That was exciting to say the least.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Dad drove around 45 on the FM roads around here. Folks would pass when a passing zone provided it. When we got to the stop sign at the next intersection, we would be right behind the ones that passed. The roads had so many curves that it didn't matter if you tried to drive 60 or drove 45. You did save gas and brakes by driving 45.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Rodeo's Bud said:


> We ran an old Datsun B210 full blast on the Autobahn. That was exciting to say the least.


I bet that thing could go 80?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

whiterock said:


> Dad drove around 45 on the FM roads around here. Folks would pass when a passing zone provided it. When we got to the stop sign at the next intersection, we would be right behind the ones that passed. The roads had so many curves that it didn't matter if you tried to drive 60 or drove 45. You did save gas and brakes by driving 45.


Some pretty simple arithmetic-- @75 mph, you'll go 25 miles in 20 [email protected] 60 mph, you'll go 20 miles , but it will take you only 5 extra minutes to make up the difference...Unless you're a firefighter on the way to a fire, is that 5 minutes important?

Gas mileage diminishes by the square of the speed.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

whiterock said:


> Dad drove around 45 on the FM roads around here. Folks would pass when a passing zone provided it. When we got to the stop sign at the next intersection, we would be right behind the ones that passed. The roads had so many curves that it didn't matter if you tried to drive 60 or drove 45. You did save gas and brakes by driving 45.


Ah, but if you are not in a hurry, why not simply just pull over and let them go by? Would be nice, safe, and so what if you are right, it would be neighborly.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

no shoulder


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

doc- said:


> Some pretty simple arithmetic-- @75 mph, you'll go 25 miles in 20 [email protected] 60 mph, you'll go 20 miles , but it will take you only 5 extra minutes to make up the difference...Unless you're a firefighter on the way to a fire, is that 5 minutes important?
> 
> Gas mileage diminishes by the square of the speed.


And then factor in an occasional stop sign or light, and it’s usually less of a difference.
I drive pretty conservative these days. I think my last ticket was 15 years ago, the one before that, maybe another 15 years earlier.
My wife on the other hand drives like a high school kid. 1 or 2 tickets a year. She needs 3 brake jobs for every 1 that I need on my vehicles. No kidding. I mean, if you see a stop sign, take your foot off the gas, then brake when you get down to 10-20. She flies up on them and jams the brakes on.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

67drake said:


> And then factor in an occasional stop sign or light, and it’s usually less of a difference.
> I drive pretty conservative these days. I think my last ticket was 15 years ago, the one before that, maybe another 15 years earlier.
> My wife on the other hand drives like a high school kid. 1 or 2 tickets a year. She needs 3 brake jobs for every 1 that I need on my vehicles. No kidding. I mean, if you see a stop sign, take your foot off the gas, then brake when you get down to 10-20. She flies up on them and jams the brakes on.


We must be married to sisters....and when she flies up to a four-way stop, , slams on the brakes and finally comes to a halt 15 ft into the intersection, she wonders why the other three people already stopped there are waiting and won't go right away.

There's a classic problem asked in every basic calculus course---- with acceleration rate & speed limit given, how much should you slow down as you approach a red light with a car already stopped to minimize the time it takes to catch up after the light turns green...Driving fast so you have to come to a stop also is the worst result...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> What is the fastest you ever drove?


My first car was a 1970 El Camino L48 with 4.11s. The day I traded my permit for a license I got stuck in the mud 2 miles from home. God was speaking.
An hour later I hit 80 mph down a tar stripped (more like speed bumped) country road and I thought I was going to bounce off the road. I may or may not have uttered for my mother. God was speaking.
The end of the summer I was drag racing and hit 137mph. I didn't know it at the time but the mechanical fuel pump ruptured and was blowing fuel all over the motor on the return trip. God cleared his throat before speaking that time.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 2/7/21 8:45 PM CST

In the 1990s after moving to an a duplex apartment in my small hometown 38 miles from the city I worked in after a rash of robberies in my in city / close to work neighborhood and enough of a raise to cover my commute costs, 31 miles of my commute one way was on two lane 45 to 55 limit hilly highway with three school zones and only one 150 yard passing zone in a swampy section.

Many days driving into work on that 2 lane country highway at posted speeds for the 40 minute and big travel mug of coffee, a woman in a new Corvette would illegally and riskily pass traffic and where the two lane met the 4 lane into the city, she might have gained 3 car lengths after 15 miles of risky passing.

I started having fun with her for a couple years when I figured out if she kamikaze passed me within a mile of a back road turn off I could take so I was triangulating off the 2 lane a mile further up the 4 lane and saving some milage although the back road detour had some tight curves and was log road rough in places even in my farm suspension pick up.

At work one day, she came right out and asked me how I ended up in front of her going into the plant when she knew she had passed me on the highway from where we lived. One of the guys I worked with fought to keep a straight face as I told her my family had a bit of witchery from my mama's side and it was one of the few spells her or my grand maw taught me LOL.

I told of the back road cut off and warned her of the rough spots and few tight curves in the shorter route that her car might have trouble with but she started using it anyway.

I guess she must have tried running the cut off as she did the highway because one morning when I was going in 2 hours late to trade off overtime the day before , at the first tight curve her car was rolled and totaled in a field and the state patrol and sheriff were fatality marking the road as they one laned traffic past it.

I still feel bad about telling her of the shortcut but I figure she most likely over drove the speed the back roads could handle and at least wrecking where she did, it was her and her car and not a multi car country road rush hour and school bus wreck.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> We must be married to sisters


It must be a big family.

My wife has her foot on one pedal or the other at all times.

I taught my wife to drive. We married young. I am a very bad teacher.

Her brake replacement is 2 to 1 of mine.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

True story. My wife and I were in my truck pulling a trailer and heading up a steep winding mountain road. Maybe 8%-10% grade.
I was driving about 50 in a 45mph zone. We were passed by a woman driving a new Ford Truck 3/4 ton running 60+. She pulls in front of us and as soon as we hit the next curve, her brake lights came on. Then she would speed up and hit the brakes again. Not just tap for a second but ride the brake enough to keep the lights on for at least 5 seconds. Over and over for the next few miles. My wife said "I've never seen someone ride their brakes while going uphill before, lol."


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I guess I should be happy my wife is not good at anticipating things, otherwise she would not have married me.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Is this a situation for the Darwin Theory?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Ah, but if you are not in a hurry, why not simply just pull over and let them go by? Would be nice, safe, and so what if you are right, it would be neighborly.


Around here if you pull over you slide off the road and into the frame scraping ditch. In some of the places I drive there is no option to pull over. Big hill on one side, 20 foot or more drop on the other. Just slow down, don't ride my bumper and we can all get where we are going safely.

I've got a bumper sticker that says "the closer you get, the slower I go". I mean it too, stupid girl that was 3 feet behind me had to do 30 in a 55 zone this afternoon.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> Around here if you pull over you slide off the road and into the frame scraping ditch. In some of the places I drive there is no option to pull over. Big hill on one side, 20 foot or more drop on the other. Just slow down, don't ride my bumper and we can all get where we are going safely.
> 
> I've got a bumper sticker that says "the closer you get, the slower I go". I mean it too, stupid girl that was 3 feet behind me had to do 30 in a 55 zone this afternoon.


I wish I were so right as you. 

If you cannot pull over, than you cannot, but that is not the point, is it?

There are too many people telling each other what to do, trying to control them (masks, blocking others in).

This seems to be a sign of the times, and maybe a symptom of a larger problem? 
Perhaps people are feeling hemmed in and seek control over their own lives and cannot do it, or perhaps it is the lack of safety for their futures?

Regardless, no one of us is always right and any given moment.

Be kind, be neighborly, be nice, be helpful.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Rude and not a smart game to play



Danaus29 said:


> I've got a bumper sticker that says "the closer you get, the slower I go". I mean it too, stupid girl that was 3 feet behind me had to do 30 in a 55 zone this afternoon.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Rude and not a smart game to play


Bumper riders are law breakers. I've been rear-ended or nearly rear ended too many times to count. I sure am not going to keep driving along doing 60 in a 55 zone with some dip doodle up my exhaust pipe. I don't give a flying fig about their inability to leave a safe distance. I do care enough about my safety to slow down when faced with unsafe driving conditions.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

I agree with Danaus-- tailgating is a dangerous situation..... If I'm going to get rear-ended when a deer jumps out of the bushes unexpectedly and I slam on the brakes, I'd rather get rear-ended at 30mph than at 55 mph....At least she's got s bumper sticker that tells the jerk following her what's going on and she doesn't have to rely on his abilities of deductive reasoning.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The rode is no place to play games. Speed and weight are killers, and there is no reason to up the chances of an accident. 

Of course tailgating is dangerous.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Speeding up when the car behind you can pass then slowing down when they can't is dangerous and a stupid game. Break checking is dangerous and a stupid game. Passing someone then slamming on the brakes is dangerous and a stupid game. Texting while driving is dangerous and a stupid game.

I don't play stupid games. When a tailgater is 3 feet off your bumper at 55 mph it takes only a split second for something to go wrong and you have to have their car removed from your trunk. At 35 it gives them a bit more time to react and their car just crunches your bumper. If you think going slower is a stupid game you are more than welcome to pass me. Just don't slam on your brakes when you get back in front of me. I have a dash cam and Ohio does not automatically ticket the car in back.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> I don't play stupid games.


Sure you are. Just pull over, let them go on. You are trying to control a person that the only control factor you have has a high potential of injury and expense. 

If they could pass, they would.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

HD there are many areas in my part of the county and country that do not have many or any safe place to pull over. I am usually one of the frustrated ones, but it does not mean I will get silly about trying to save a few minutes. Witnessed about 55 miles of it this afternoon before I finally got to a major road.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> HD there are many areas in my part of the county and country that do not have many or any safe place to pull over. I am usually one of the frustrated ones, but it does not mean I will get silly about trying to save a few minutes. Witnessed about 55 miles of it this afternoon before I finally got to a major road.


I understand, but taunting, or goading someone on the road is going to lead to a bad outcome.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Saw a few wind mill turbine farms shut down today. Read up a bit and learned that ice can build up on wind turbines used for electricity. The ice greatly reduces the efficiency of the wind tuning the blades. The ice also adds to the friction to turn the blades. But even more important the ice usually does not build up evenly on a blade and very differently from one blade to the other on the same windmill. Creates a large imbalance and can easily result in damage to the gearing that is housed in that big box behind the blades. So when ice might happen, the turbines are shut down. For however long it takes to melt or for the company to remove the ice. A costly and often ongoing maintence issue.

Would suspect ice is a issue to solar farms also in one way or the other. 

Good thing we still have power plants burning fossil fuels to keep the heat going in most homes where and when bad weather is a issue.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Sure you are. Just pull over, let them go on. You are trying to control a person that the only control factor you have has a high potential of injury and expense.
> 
> If they could pass, they would.


Did you miss my previous post where I said there is no extra room beside the roads to pull over? Apparently. Just today, doing 35 in a 35 zone with cars and sidewalks about 2 feet from the white line the law-breaker behind me was so close I could not see their headlights. I wasn't the one playing games. Tailgaters play games.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Pull over to let tailgaters pass.
Slow down to let tailgaters pass because there is no safe way to pull over.
Hmmm, sounds like 6 of one, half dozen of the other.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

When you can no longer see the headlights of the vehicle behind you, they are past being too close.
When a driver notices a tailgaiter behind them, they become a distracted driver. You spend more time with your eyes in the mirrors than looking ahead.
One of the first lessons I gave to our kids when they got behind the wheel was to never let another driver dictate how you drive.
So, in my experience, and I don't play road games, is I slow down when someone becomes a distraction and give them the opportunity to pass. But terrain plays a role; I'll speed up and pass the semi so I can shoot into the right lane when I am on a flat interstate. Winding, hilly roads, nope.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If you cannot react to another driver in a safe manner, making whatever allowances you have to, you are not a very good driver.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> If you cannot react to another driver in a safe manner, making whatever allowances you have to, you are not a very good driver.


That describes (fill in the blank) % of US drivers today.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> That describes (fill in the blank) % of US drivers today.


I was very impressed with German drivers


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

If I am being followed by a tailgater, I slow down. They can either pass me or slow down themselves. Sorry, but pulling over is just not an option on the majority of the roads here at this time of year. If I am driving the speed limit and they are still tailgating they are breaking the law. I don't have to adjust my speed for them. My job as a driver is to make sure I am safe when someone else is breaking the law.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I don't have to adjust my speed for them


You don't have to. But, you should


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> You don't have to. But, you should


So in your opinion should the driver being tailgated slow down or speed up?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> So in your opinion should the driver being tailgated slow down or speed up?


I would find the earliest opportunity to let them go around. Ever oh best to do so


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And that is exactly what gets accomplished when I slow down, which you claimed was me playing games.

But cheering for them when they get to the red light before me is playing games. I will admit to being guilty of that.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> And that is exactly what gets accomplished when I slow down, which you claimed was me playing games.


I guess I misunderstood your intent. I did not realize you were slowing to let them around in a stretch of road that was not conducive for passing at normal speeds. 

My apologies.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

There's a lot of twists and turns in these roads and precious little room to pass. I'm willing to let them blow by me when they get a chance. I usually catch up to them at the next light.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I was very impressed with German drivers


So was I-- negatively.

I'd be doing 105 on the bike on the Autostrada in Italy and the @#$%ers would blow past me at 135 in their big Mercedes 600s-- without changing lanes.

I did like the style of Italian drivers. Every man for himself and everyone knew it and everyone acted accordingly. "If you don't like the way I drive, then stay off the sidewalk" is not a joke in Italy. It's a rule.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> There's a lot of twists and turns in these roads and precious little room to pass. I'm willing to let them blow by me when they get a chance. I usually catch up to them at the next light.


I'm with you.

HD is a biker and bikers put up with a whole lotta crap, both unintentional and intentional, from car drivers, so I think you hit a raw nerve in principle with him.

I see your method as one of communication with the following driver, not as an example of passive/aggressive behavior.

I do the same as you. I have a 6 mile run along a two lane built on a ridge with sharp, steep drop off on either side and sections cut thru as a narrow valley-- no room for a shoulder. It's a nice drive, speed limit 55 but turns cautioned down to 25 in spots....If I'm lolligaggin' but I see someone approaching quickly, I'll get up to the limit (either as posted or for the conditions)...If that's still too slow for the jerk who needs that extra 40 seconds, I put on my right blinker and pull as close to the right edge as possible, slowing down so much he can pass quickly while only putting two wheels over the center line.

By the same token, if I see a guy going slowly (maybe a tractor; maybe a 90y/o; etc) I just slow down to his speed and stay a few hundred yds back so he doesn't feel pressured into driving over his abilities. No sense in pushing him. I don't need the 40 seconds.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> So was I-- negatively.
> 
> I'd be doing 105 on the bike on the Autostrada in Italy and the @#$%ers would blow past me at 135 in their big Mercedes 600s-- without changing lanes.
> 
> I did like the style of Italian drivers. Every man for himself and everyone knew it and everyone acted accordingly. "If you don't like the way I drive, then stay off the sidewalk" is not a joke in Italy. It's a rule.


Sounds like you are talking about Italians.

I never even got in the far left lane in Germany. I might be chugging along at 80 to 100 and someone would come up instantly in the lane to my left and be out of sight before I even knew what happened. Driving them, I was surprised at how under powered some of the big Benzs were. BMW is a best of another breed. 

I liked how they allowed you in when you signal. Everyone used turn signals. I like how all the trucks stay in the far right lane. I like how all the trucks are off the road at 10 PM Friday, and don't come back until 10 PM Sunday.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

As near as I could tell, the only thing the carabinieri were strict about was when driving on the Autostrada-- You could only drive in the left lane if you were passing, and you had to have your left blinker on while you were out there until you turned your right one on to get back in the right lane after the pass.

It seems Italians drive 10/10ths at all times on all streets...The problem is, it might be in a Ferrari or it might be in a Topolino Cinquecento (top speed maybe 50 mph).

I've driven in Rome and I've driven on the east coat of Fla....Rome is safer.... Rome isn't over-run with large Cadillacs with only the top of the blue hair and knuckles of the driver on the steering wheel visible.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc, while I agree bikers put up with a lot of crap from 4 wheelers (part of the reason I made hubby give up his bike, too many close calls) I have seen them do a lot of stupid stuff too. Had one right behind my van, texting while doing 45 mph. I thought I was going to have to scrape him off my bumper. I have a lot of respect for bikers (even bicycles) and would never play games with them. Other than the one texter, I have never had a problem with bikers tailgating.

I wish these roads were wide enough to allow one car to move over for another to pass. Even the main roads don't have more than a foot of asphalt to the right of the edge lines.

Most of Columbus isn't so bad, lots of 4 lane roads. But you still get bumper riders who just won't go around. Even when you are the only 2 cars going that direction.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> I have never had a problem with bikers tailgating.


That's a problem that solves itself..Bikers who tailgate are eliminated from the gene pool pretty quickly...There are no "fender benders" on a bike.


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## Bront (Jan 26, 2021)

Shrek said:


> The Sunday paper had an article about the push to get totally away from fossil fuels to wind /electric by 2035. One of the older guys said the later Generation X and Millennials would be more of a barrier to the goal than the remaining Baby Boomers.
> 
> When I asked why he explained that while the remaining Baby Boomers and the early Gen X population who share many baby boomer values and attitudes and many still use 3G flip phones , landlines and drive 25 to 30 year old vehicles and have golf carts they use as first generation electric vehicles, the back end of the Gen X and most all of the Millennials share the "I want it now and I want it fast" mindset , be it their iPhone , movie streaming speed or computer overloaded 10 year old gasoline powered vehicle capable of going 100 mph and can be fueled at a gas station in a matter of minutes even if fuel is $6 and they always have a reason to justify the cost.
> 
> ...


Of course not. Did they willingly give up tobacco? no It took years lawsuits, people dying..mass ad campaigns and

people can see all that and still smoke. The results of global warm are all around us..this polar vortex is undoubltedly

a result. But people can't see the forest for the trees... 😕


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bront said:


> results of global warm are all around us..this polar vortex is undoubtedly


When did the "polar vortex" start, was it in the 70's or maybe around the late 1800's?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Bront said:


> Of course not. Did they willingly give up tobacco? no It took years lawsuits, people dying..mass ad campaigns and
> 
> people can see all that and still smoke. The results of global warm are all around us..this polar vortex is undoubltedly
> 
> a result. But people can't see the forest for the trees...


USA has more trees now than a hundred years ago. Probably part of that forest. 

Now if you want to take a stroll down to South America, or get over to china you might be useful. They definitely need some help getting up to speed on this environmental deal. Might also make china a bit easier to compete with on the market and production issues. No need to stay around here, it’s under control.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Until a more reliable and safer alternative is developed, fossil fuels will be our primary fuel. Simple logic.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Bront said:


> Of course not. Did they willingly give up tobacco? no It took years lawsuits, people dying..mass ad campaigns and
> 
> people can see all that and still smoke. The results of global warm are all around us..this polar vortex is undoubltedly
> 
> a result. But people can't see the forest for the trees... 😕


Read this (particularly the "Comments")...Then get back to us. Southeast Greenland Sea Surface Temperature 1° – 2°C Warmer In 1940 Than Today, New Study Shows – Watts Up With That?


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

doc- said:


> Read this (particularly the "Comments")...Then get back to us. Southeast Greenland Sea Surface Temperature 1° – 2°C Warmer In 1940 Than Today, New Study Shows – Watts Up With That?


Don't you know that warming makes it colder which makes it warmer which makes it dryer which makes it wetter which makes it windier which makes it calmer which makes it lighter which makes it darker...

Sheesh, keep up.


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