# Why, really WHY??



## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

This just makes me sick, as sick as I have been in months. Why, why, probably time for bed and an attempt at sleep.

White young man shoots up African American Episcopal Methodist church in Charleston, SC.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/17/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/index.html


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

This is truly disturbing and disgusting. it is an affront to what we hold dear. I pray for those families and their community. The sickness in some peoples minds goes beyond anything I can understand. This should spark the largest manhunt in our Country.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Ten to one the man is mentally ill. If so, it's a complicated situation, you can't force someone to take medication without a court order and there has to be actual proof that the person will hurt themselves or others. 

Most people have a MYOB attitude about reporting abnormal behavior until it's too late as well. 

It's a sad situation for everyone involved.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

There are no words that can describe this horrible crime. I pray for the families and for the community. My first thought when I read the story was that this is work of a crazed neo-nazi. I hope they find him soon before he hurts anyone else.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I hope they get him and hang him in the street.
That being said, why is it that a white on black crime always lists the race of the shooter, but when a black man kills whites, the race is not mentioned and it's not considered a hate crime?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Disturbing. Hard to comprehend. How can a person be so messed up in the head to do something like that?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

MO_cows said:


> Disturbing. Hard to comprehend. How can a person be so messed up in the head to do something like that?


The powers that be are pushing for a race war.
It just takes one dimwit falling for it to keep the fire blazing.
I'm guessing the riot has already been scheduled.
This also falls into the hands of the gun control crowd.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Can just one tragedy not be used as a polarizing political event? Please.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can just one tragedy not be used as a polarizing political event? Please.


That's up to the polarizing politicians


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can just one tragedy not be used as a polarizing political event? Please.


Probably not. Every tragedy is leverage for some political goal. 

That said, I agree with your premise, even though you only implied one, there are bad people that do bad things for bad reasons. Always been so. Always will be so.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Why, really WHY??


You're looking for logical and rational answers to an illogical and irrational event.

There are no answers other than some people are crazy, and only the shooter truly knows "why"


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You're looking for logical and rational answers to an illogical and irrational event.
> 
> There are no answers other than some people are crazy, and only the shooter truly knows "why"


True. Although I completely understand the frustration of the OP... more innocent people dead. Again.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Hate talk leads to hate action. Our country is on a hate fest where people confuse their own frustrations as being caused by others and can't spare a moment to look at their own behavior. There is too much permission given for it.
People in a church- why pick on people in a church? Women and children? Why does hate seem to love to target them?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I am so terribly sad. They know who the shooter is. Why, oh, why? So horrible.
He is from Columbia, SC. His uncle recognized him from the picture. He was arrested earlier this yr on drug charges.
http://www.wistv.com/story/29351540/charleston-shooting-suspect-from-columbia-area


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

gapeach said:


> I am so terribly sad. They know who the shooter is. Why, oh, why? So horrible.
> He is from Columbia, SC. His uncle recognized him from the picture. He was arrested earlier this yr on drug charges.


Yes, Dylann Roof. Woundering about what looks to be blood on his grey shirt in the camera shots. Was this revenge?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Everything will all come out. Columbia is the center of the State Law Enforcement Division. FBI has a large office there too.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Hate talk leads to hate action. Our country is on a hate fest where people confuse their own frustrations as being caused by others and can't spare a moment to look at their own behavior. There is too much permission given for it.
> People in a church- why pick on people in a church? Women and children? Why does hate seem to love to target them?


Because most states have laws about being armed in church.
Most crazy people aren't stupid, that's why they pick on schools and churches, they are unlikely to be shot back at.
We call those victim zones


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

He has been caught!


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

gapeach said:


> He has been caught!


Good 
Hope they weren't too gentle


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Ten to one the man is mentally ill. If so, it's a complicated situation, you can't force someone to take medication without a court order and there has to be actual proof that the person will hurt themselves or others.
> 
> Most people have a MYOB attitude about reporting abnormal behavior until it's too late as well.
> 
> It's a sad situation for everyone involved.



I don't believe he was mentally ill, as his father just bought him the gun for his birthday. I don't believe the father would have done so if he suspected his son had mental issues. The parent would be the first to know if their child was acting strange.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Staceyy said:


> I don't believe he was mentally ill, as his father just bought him the gun for his birthday. I don't believe the father would have done so if he suspected his son had mental issues. The parent would be the first to know if their child was acting strange.


Time will tell. Parents are well known for denial in their kids behavior. I can't imagine anyone _not_ mentally ill killing a group of people studying the Bible but anything is possible.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Cornhusker said:


> Good
> Hope they weren't too gentle


I hope he gets a quick but fair trial and is immediately executed in a mostly inhumane way afterwards if he is guilty!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Staceyy said:


> I don't believe he was mentally ill, as his father just bought him the gun for his birthday. I don't believe the father would have done so if he suspected his son had mental issues. The parent would be the first to know if their child was acting strange.


Maybe his parents did not know he was a drug user.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

Staceyy said:


> I don't believe he was mentally ill, as his father just bought him the gun for his birthday. I don't believe the father would have done so if he suspected his son had mental issues. The parent would be the first to know if their child was acting strange.


Adam Lanza's mother allowed him access to her guns.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Dylann Storm Roof, According to the S.C. State Law Enforcement Division (SLED), Roof has two prior arrests on his record &#8211; a late February drug charge in Lexington County, S.C. (which resulted in him being briefly jailed) and an April trespassing charge which was awaiting disposition.

Roof&#8217;s drug charge was for the manufacture and possession of a controlled substance known as Suboxone.


(.pdf here) he was arrested for strange questions that he was asking at stores in a local mall.

The drug, Suboxone is a drug usually given to people who have an opiate addiction.

(I hesitate to post the link here because of the rough language used in comments to this news article.)


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Staceyy said:


> I don't believe he was mentally ill, as his father just bought him the gun for his birthday. I don't believe the father would have done so if he suspected his son had mental issues. The parent would be the first to know if their child was acting strange.


Sandy Hook shooter?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

There have been two recent horrific events in the State of SC. 

1. Walter Scott's shooting in Summerville (April).
2. Charleston SC church shooting (Yesterday)

In both cases the "little ole southern state of SC police forces" , did their jobs , did them well, and have worked hard to keep the peace.

I am sure that there are exceptions, but we sure did not see the type of rioting and violence that occurred elsewhere in this country.

I see where the politicos are again going to descend on the scene of the crimes in an attempt to create unrest and take advantage of a terrible crime to further their own personal objectives. This time it appears that it is not only the Sharpton , and Jesse that are on the way, but also Glenn Beck sees the opportunity to be relevant again. I wish they all would stay away!

It is VERY appropriate for the Nikki Hailey and Tim Scott to be there and promote ways that the state can support all efforts to see justice is done and that families of the victims , and the community as a whole can be assisted.

Actually this perpetrator drove from Columbia, SC to Charleston 100 miles away. I don't really see that this gives Charleston an ongoing black/white crime problem unless the rent a protestors come in and make it one.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Ten to one the man is mentally ill. If so, it's a complicated situation, you can't force someone to take medication without a court order and there has to be actual proof that the person will hurt themselves or others.


I think this time we're looking at a strong segregationist.

But getting a court order for mental illness after a mass killing is easy to do. The Aurora theater shooting trial is the best example of a mental illness defense that I can think of. No question about it -- he's madder than a cat. In fact I think the prosecutor's insistence that he's NOT mentally ill is frivolous. That case will end with Holmes being sent to a mental hospital, and it's unlikely that he'll ever leave. The trial is a complete waste of taxpayer-funded resources.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

gapeach said:


> There have been two recent horrific events in the State of SC.
> 
> 1. Walter Scott's shooting in Summerville (April).
> 2. Charleston SC church shooting (Yesterday)
> ...


From what I see in the media the local people seem to be handling this tragedy as well as can be expected so I think we all would be better off if those parasites avoided situations like this, just stayed away. But like you said it makes them feel relevant.

The other thing I wish is now that he has been identified and caught, stop posting his picture and using his name. I strongly suspect that is what he wants


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Like most other mass murderers, he was likely taking a prescription drug. Of course, it will be ignored just like it was in the other cases. Got to go after guns.


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

Watching him being loaded into a police car SMILING all the way, while 9 people are dead as just pretty much made me give up my internet break for the day.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Ten to one the man is mentally ill. If so, it's a complicated situation, you can't force someone to take medication without a court order and there has to be actual proof that the person will hurt themselves or others.


Is a person who is hooked on prescription drugs always mentally ill?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> *I think this time we're looking at a strong segregationist.*
> 
> But getting a court order for mental illness after a mass killing is easy to do. The Aurora theater shooting trial is the best example of a mental illness defense that I can think of. No question about it -- he's madder than a cat. In fact I think the prosecutor's insistence that he's NOT mentally ill is frivolous. That case will end with Holmes being sent to a mental hospital, and it's unlikely that he'll ever leave. The trial is a complete waste of taxpayer-funded resources.


The bolded from the guy who always says we shouldn't jump to conclusions. We really haven't heard much about him at all except he has a drug history and was charged with trespassing. More will come out in a day or two to give us a better idea of what the nut was all about. He might be a segregationist, he could have had a grievance against the church or someone in it, he could have been high or drugs, or he might be bitter because he is a woman trapped in a man's body. However it develops, I'll wager he has mental problems.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

poppy said:


> The bolded from the guy who always says we shouldn't jump to conclusions. We really haven't heard much about him at all except he has a drug history and was charged with trespassing. More will come out in a day or two to give us a better idea of what the nut was all about. He might be a segregationist, he could have had a grievance against the church or someone in it, he could have been high or drugs, or he might be bitter because he is a woman trapped in a man's body. However it develops, I'll wager he has mental problems.


Well in a photo he is wearing patches of the Rhodesian and Apartheid era South African flags. To me that hints there may be a racist element involved.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> Like most other mass murderers, he was likely taking a prescription drug. Of course, it will be ignored just like it was in the other cases. Got to go after guns.


Serious question-Do you want them to go after the prescription pills? And it isn't an either or case to me, so I am not saying go after the guns.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Of course he has "mental problems" or he wouldn't do such a thing in the first place. But whether or not he will be found "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a lot more complex.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> The bolded from the guy who always says we shouldn't jump to conclusions.


I'm going by what his roommate said.

â*He was big into segregation* and other stuff,â Tyler said. âHe said he wanted to start a civil war. He said he was going to do something like that and then kill himself.â 
http://abcnews.go.com/US/charleston-shooting-closer-alleged-gunman-dylann-roof/story?id=31865375

What are you going by?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The drug that he was taking without a prescription is Suboxone. It is a prescription drug and is used for treating a heroin addiction. 

I think jumping to the conclusion about anything right now is premature. 
I am so sorry for all of the people who lost their lives and all of the families involved. I am also very sorry for Charleston and it's citizens. The fact that it happened in their city should not make Charleston a rally center for protests and people who would try to make even more trouble and to promote their own agendas.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

MO_cows said:


> Disturbing. Hard to comprehend. How can a person be so messed up in the head to do something like that?


There have always been crazy people. But, I do think there is something to the arguments I have heard that say that some of these rx drugs that are in wide circulation (both legally and illegally) are mind-altering and may be contributing heavily to some of these mass shooting incidents.

These tragedies make me wish that people would realize this whole "gun free zone" mentality has created a target rich environment. People are deterred from committing crimes of opportunity when they understand there is significant risk of citizens returning fire before law enforcement can even get to a scene. Gun free is not gun safe in my opinion.

Saying prayers for all those adults and kids in that community. The dead aren't replaceable to their loved ones, and the lose will be felt for so long. The fact that it happened in a church is even sadder, as it will be painful to be there just at the time that it would try to be a blessing and place of comfort for people to come to.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I'm going by what his roommate said.
> 
> â*He was big into segregation* and other stuff,â Tyler said. âHe said he wanted to start a civil war. He said he was going to do something like that and then kill himself.â
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/charleston-shooting-closer-alleged-gunman-dylann-roof/story?id=31865375
> ...


That roommate should have told the police what his plans were if that is true. 
Read Facebook sometimes and you will see all kinds of talk like that and also racist trash from young black people toward whites. 

Drugs are a terrible thing for the mind.


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> Of course he has "mental problems" or he wouldn't do such a thing in the first place. But whether or not he will be found "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a lot more complex.


Really did the people who bombed the church in Birmingham that killed four young girls have mental problems or were they just horrible racists, I see this as the same thing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Is a person who is hooked on prescription drugs always mentally ill?


I believe you are misinterpreting my post. I meant that mentally ill people can't be forced to take anti-psychotic or other medication to treat mental illness without a court order.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

keenataz said:


> Serious question-Do you want them to go after the prescription pills? And it isn't an either or case to me, so I am not saying go after the guns.


When there is a pattern of young men committing violent acts when on prescribed psychotropic drugs, then yes, I want them to go after the drugs and the doctors that prescribed them.

I see 3 possibilities in this case:


He is mentally ill and not taking prescription drugs
He is mentally ill and on psychotropic drug(s)
He has an overwhelming hatred of black people.
#2 seems most likely to me followed by #1. of course the media is only focusing on #3.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> When there is a pattern of young men committing violent acts when on prescribed psychotropic drugs, then yes, I want them to go after the drugs and the doctors that prescribed them.
> 
> I see 3 possibilities in this case:
> 
> ...


Or, and more likely in my opinion, a combination of all three plus taking illegal street drugs. 

Like I said, time will tell.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

RichNC said:


> Really did the people who bombed the church in Birmingham that killed four young girls have mental problems or were they just horrible racists, I see this as the same thing.


I hope you aren't suggesting that people who kill for racist reasons are deserving of an insanity defense, are you?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I see 3 possibilities in this case:
> 
> 
> He is mentally ill and not taking prescription drugs
> ...


His roommate thinks it's #3.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Or, and more likely in my opinion, a combination of all three plus taking illegal street drugs. Like I said, time will tell.


The source is suspect, but I heard this on Hannity this afternoon as well.



> *Charleston shooter Dylann Storm Roof was reportedly taking a drug that has been linked with sudden outbursts of violence, fitting the pattern of innumerable other mass shooters who were on or had recently come off pharmaceutical drugs linked to aggression.*​ According to a CBS News report, earlier this year when cops searched Roof after he was acting suspiciously inside a Bath and Body Works store, they found âorange stripsâ that Roof told officers was suboxone, a narcotic that is used to treat opiate addiction.​ Suboxone is a habit-forming drug that has been connected with sudden outbursts of aggression.​


http://www.infowars.com/charleston-shooter-was-on-drug-linked-to-violent-outbursts/


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

From all the articles I have read that are Columbia,SC sources, say that he actually lived with his father still but stayed at different places, most times in his car, in friends' driveways. 
The Meeks boy who claims he was his roommate lives with his mother and Dylann was sleeping is his car Tuesday night until yesterday morning.

The father seems to be a likeable guy to people who know him but a big hippy whose house was always open to friends of all races. Dylann also had black friends.
Both parents say that they will give no interviews at all. Father lives in Columbia. Mother and boyfriend live in Lexington,SC about 15 miles away.

Everything will come out and it probably won't be very long til it does.
Dylann does have several S African flags.


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

Nevada said:


> I hope you aren't suggesting that people who kill for racist reasons are deserving of an insanity defense, are you?


My goodness did you read the post I quoted??

And as an add, was it mental illness that killed Medgar Evers, or Dr. King, or was it flat out racism, which is what I really believe in my heart this tragedy in Charleston was.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

RichNC said:


> My goodness did you read the post I quoted??
> 
> And as an add, was it mental illness that killed Medgar Evers, or Dr. King, or was it flat out racism, which is what I really believe in my heart this tragedy in Charleston was.


Based on what?


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

*Charleston shooter Dylann Storm Roof was reportedly taking a drug that has been linked with sudden outbursts of violence, fitting the pattern of innumerable other mass shooters who were on or had recently come off pharmaceutical drugs linked to aggression.*

"Sudden outbursts of violence'..except this wasn't sudden. He sat with them, talked with them etc.. for a long time before he killed them.
And he had a plan. He let the one live and gave her a message to share.

Not a sudden outburst at all.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

chickenista said:


> Not a sudden outburst at all.


I agree. It sounds like he sat there until he convinced himself that these people deserved exactly what he was going to do to them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> I agree. It sounds like he sat there until he convinced himself that these people deserved exactly what he was going to do to them.


Sounds like someone out of touch with reality.


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> Sounds like someone out of touch with reality.


Really??

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35793/charleston-shooting-discussion/


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Sounds like someone out of touch with reality.


It was a deliberate act, and he even gave his reasons why he was going to do it.

_"You all rape women and you're taking over our country. I have to do what I have to do"_
http://abcnews.go.com/US/charleston...edly-survivor-inside-church/story?id=31872085


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Oh.. and they caught him about 10 miles from my house.. heading west on 74 towards us. Oh joy.
I wonder where he was headed...


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I have read in several articles that he flunked out of school in the 9th grade. Mom sent him to Dad in a different school district but he did not last long there either. Mom and Dad told him to get out and get a job. 
How can you get a job with a 9th grade education?
He is one messed up person, apparently. What a shame and tragedy for all involved!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

RichNC said:


> Really??
> 
> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35793/charleston-shooting-discussion/


I lived in the deep South in the 60's, and this is far different from what I knew as racism. This is the twisted mind of a young man that was fed lies by his mother's boyfriend, at least that's what it sounds like right now. 

Was the act racist? Of course it was. But I think he was a screwed up kid on drugs and was "programmed" by others. The act itself may not have been programmed, but the belief that black men were raping white women and taking over was. 

The reason I think drugs are the driving influence is that what he said and did makes no sense, even to a racist. It was not based on facts, but fiction. The belief that he could start a race war was delusional. The guy was definitely not acting in a sane way.

The other option is he was so driven by hate that he decided to go to the church and commit mass murder. Where did the hate and rage come from? If he was that angry, how did he manage to sit in the church with his victims for an hour?

To me, the only thing that makes sense is he was delusional.


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

chickenista said:


> *Charleston shooter Dylann Storm Roof was reportedly taking a drug that has been linked with sudden outbursts of violence, fitting the pattern of innumerable other mass shooters who were on or had recently come off pharmaceutical drugs linked to aggression.*
> 
> "Sudden outbursts of violence'..except this wasn't sudden. He sat with them, talked with them etc.. for a long time before he killed them.
> And he had a plan. He let the one live and gave her a message to share.
> ...



On the news they said he planned this for 6 months. I don't think you can plan something for 6 months and blame it on drugs.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can just one tragedy not be used as a polarizing political event? Please.


Wasn't it Clinton that said, "Never let a tragedy go to waste"?

Pols can't help themselves.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Ok, now let's talk about the *real* problem...

In the late 1970's and into the early 1980's, a perfect storm occurred:

1. The country was in a heckuva financial fix.
2. A new generation of psychiatric drugs were coming into the marketplace.
3. The Left succeeded in painting all psychiatric institutions as punitive jails for the mentally incompetent.

Therefore, we decided to drastically cut back on psychiatric institutions, and consequently, psychiatric beds. We quit letting patients be institutionalized, no matter if a pastoral lifestyle was better for them, meds or no meds. We thought that meds could cure all, but we kinda left out the fact that psychiatric patients are not the most dependable folks when it comes to taking their medicine as prescribed.

So, we turned these patients out into our frenzied world with a minimum of resources to help them cope. And the country just kept piling rats in the box, leading to all of the problems people start to have with population density. Not to mention that society has become more technological, with technology's fast paced lifestyle.

There are people out on the streets today, that have no business being there. For our safety and for theirs.

This is just another example...


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Jolly said:


> Wasn't it Clinton that said, "Never let a tragedy go to waste"?


It was Rahm Emmanuel who said "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

Jolly said:


> Ok, now let's talk about the *real* problem...
> 
> In the late 1970's and into the early 1980's, a perfect storm occurred:
> 
> ...


Replying to the bolded, that was actually Ronald Regan who did that!!


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I think this young man obviously did not have a strong family structure, enough dicipline and was failed by his parents. He was a high school dropout early on, shifted back and forth to his divorced parents. He had gone to several different schools. He did not work, had only a few friends. I wonder how he got a car and it is a nice one. 
I am not excusing him for what he did. His crime is horrendous.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

RichNC said:


> Replying to the bolded, that was actually Ronald Regan who did that!!


Read what I wrote, _in toto_.

For a long time, folks have tried to hang that one solely on Reagan, when in fact, it was more than just reimbursement and DRGs.

I think the Truth is bit more complicated and the blame can be spread around.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> Sounds like someone out of touch with reality.


I would have to give that award to someone else actually. Racism as a motive is pretty much slapping you in the face here.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> Wasn't it Clinton that said, "Never let a tragedy go to waste"?
> 
> Pols can't help themselves.


Neither can posters on forums it would appear.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> Neither can posters on forums it would appear.


I didn't give a definitive, it was worded as a question.

Turn your snark meter down, bubba.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> I would have to give that award to someone else actually. Racism as a motive is pretty much slapping you in the face here.


Secondary, perhaps.

You think racism drives sane people to mass murder?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> I would have to give that award to someone else actually. Racism as a motive is pretty much slapping you in the face here.


It strikes me more as terrorism than racism.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> It strikes me more as terrorism than racism.


Facts will continue to come out, but I am reading he was deluded, drug addled and desired some type of race war. It is being said he was filled with hate for blacks.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A North Carolina florist is being hailed a hero after alerting police when she spotted the suspected gunman Dylann Storm Roofâs car early on Thursday and then tailing him until authorities arrived.

Debbie Dills was driving to work on Thursday through Shelby, North Carolina â about four hoursâ drive from Charleston â when she spotted a black Hyundai with a South Carolina plate

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ills-hailed-a-hero-after-tailing-suspects-car


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Out of the hundreds or even thousands of people you have met in your life, can you think of even one that was so driven by racism that they could have committed such an act. Now think about strange people you have known.

I can think of 1 or 2 people I have known that might have committed a horrendous act and both had mental problems.

I agree that the act was racist, but I still think it was because of mental problems and not racism.


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

MO_cows said:


> It strikes me more as terrorism than racism.



According to the witness, he specifically said he wanted to kill black people.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

gapeach said:


> That roommate should have told the police what his plans were if that is true.
> Read Facebook sometimes and you will see all kinds of talk like that and also racist trash from young black people toward whites.
> 
> Drugs are a terrible thing for the mind.





HDRider said:


> Facts will continue to come out, but I am reading he was deluded, drug addled and desired some type of race war. It is being said he was filled with hate for blacks.


Yes, he wanted a Civil war. We keep talking about it elsewhere, and I have stated it here. People are being pushed to accept things that they are not ready for or they do not want. Pushing the bad cop issue all the while telling people to overlook what the thugs(can't say that -PC don't you know) are doing to get in trouble with Cops.It's constant with this regime, stirring the pot. Someone ,drugs,mental, whatever -goes over the edge. Summer is just starting and the regime has only so much time left.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> Out of the hundreds or even thousands of people you have met in your life, can you think of even one that was so driven by racism that they could have committed such an act. Now think about strange people you have known.
> 
> I can think of 1 or 2 people I have known that might have committed a horrendous act and both had mental problems.
> 
> I agree that the act was racist, but I still think it was because of mental problems and not racism.


I can think of a couple who, if given the right circumstances, would kill another base on race. I grew up with some who would go out of their way to provoke fights based on race. 

I was discussing this incident with a friend of mine last night. He asked me a question I can't answer. Why, when a white kid commits a mass murder does the conversation turn immediately to mental illness and drug addled behavior? Why when a black kid shoots someone is he just a thug?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> I can think of a couple who, if given the right circumstances, would kill another base on race. I grew up with some who would go out of their way to provoke fights based on race.
> 
> I was discussing this incident with a friend of mine last night. He asked me a question I can't answer. Why, when a white kid commits a mass murder does the conversation turn immediately to mental illness and drug addled behavior? Why when a black kid shoots someone is he just a thug?


 Very few cases of Blacks going on these spree shootings. Usally whites.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Staceyy said:


> On the news they said he planned this for 6 months. I don't think you can plan something for 6 months and blame it on drugs.


Wasn't he on the drugs longer than 6 mo?
Has anyone mentioned yet that his dad BOUGHT HIM THE GUN?!!!? Prolly why he's declining interviews. Had to know the son was messed up. 

As far as it getting political already, the Idioitincharge came out w/statement & barely got "how tragic" out of hie mouth & called for gun control.
What do you think woulda happened if 1 or 2 of the parishoners had a gun?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Ok, now let's talk about the *real* problem...
> 
> In the late 1970's and into the early 1980's, a perfect storm occurred:
> 
> ...


Post of the week award.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We are denying the American reality if we deny we have a problem between blacks and whites.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

About hate crimes, is it a hate crime if this were a black 21 yr old who had said bad things about white people, wore a anti-white shirt and shot (and killed) 9 people at another historic church in Charleston and all of his victims were white?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

If he wanted to start a race war that was really a war he could have gathered up a few like minded idiots and headed into one of those neighborhoods that make the news all the time for violence. He attacked people who he didn't think could fight back and had nothing to do with his so called grievances. That's more like terrorism, a cowardly sneak attack. From what has come out, he was an extreme racist, but what he did went way beyond racism.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> About hate crimes, is it a hate crime if this were a black 21 yr old who had said bad things about white people, wore a anti-white shirt and shot (and killed) 9 people at another historic church in Charleston and all of his victims were white?


Yes it would.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> About hate crimes, is it a hate crime if this were a black 21 yr old who had said bad things about white people, wore a anti-white shirt and shot (and killed) 9 people at another historic church in Charleston and all of his victims were white?


The good news is is that there is no state level hate crime statute in SC.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/18/3671111/south-carolina-shooting-hate-crime/


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

He himself bought the .45-caliber handgun used in the shooting last April at a Charleston gun store, according to the two officials. Earlier, a senior law enforcement official had indicated that Roofâs father bought him a Glock firearm for his birthday.
http://fox6now.com/2015/06/19/charleston-church-shooting-questions-swirl-around-suspect-dylann-roof/

This is new this morning.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> The good news is is that there is no state level hate crime statute in SC.
> 
> http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/18/3671111/south-carolina-shooting-hate-crime/


Why is that good news?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

RichNC said:


> Replying to the bolded, that was actually Ronald Regan who did that!!


Just responding to the "likes" at the bottom of the post...I can predict that stuff by what's written - either side of the political spectrum - because too many view this simply as a debating society.

Rather than a Reagan "gotcha", some of y'all might want to back up and actually think over all the points.

Then, tell me if I'm right or wrong. And why.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Why is that good news?


For me, it's because I dislike things like hate laws. The nine good people in SC are just as dead whatever the shooter's reason. The shooter should be punished for his actions, not his thoughts.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> For me, it's because I dislike things like hate laws. The nine good people in SC are just as dead whatever the shooter's reason. The shooter should be punished for his actions, not his thoughts.


I agree. His uncle said this morning that he would gladly pull the lever if they put him in the electric chair. 
Well, they don't use the chair anymore but he will undoubtedly get the death penalty. The Governor has called for it.
Sadly, it won't bring any of the victims back.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

mmoetc said:


> I was discussing this incident with a friend of mine last night. He asked me a question I can't answer. Why, when a white kid commits a mass murder does the conversation turn immediately to mental illness and drug addled behavior? Why when a black kid shoots someone is he just a thug?


That's easy. There is no equivalence between mass murder and murdering one person. Mruders are relatively common in our culture, but not mass murders.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> That's easy. There is no equivalence between mass murder and murdering one person. Mruders are relatively common in our culture, but not mass murders.


But can't anyone who kills another be similarly mentally disturbed, drug addled or otherwise lacking mental capacity? Is there a limit on how many one must kill before the question is broached?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

mmoetc said:


> But can't anyone who kills another be similarly mentally disturbed, drug addled or otherwise lacking mental capacity? Is there a limit on how many one must kill before the question is broached?


There is a known relationship between brain altering drugs and mass murder. I don't think there has been shown to be a relationship between murder and brain altering drugs



> *John Hinckley (1981)* John Hinckley, age 25, took four *Valium* two hours before shooting and almost killing President Ronald Reagan in 1981. In the assassination attempt, Hinckley also wounded press secretary James Brady, Secret Service agent Timothy McCarthy and policeman Thomas Delahanty.
> *Laurie Dann (1988) *In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, IL, killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the anti-depressant *Anafranil as well as Lithium*, long used to treat mania.
> *Patrick Purdy (1989) *Patrick Purdy went on a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, CA, in 1989, which became the catalyst for the original legislative frenzy to ban "semiautomatic assault weapons" in California and the nation. The 25-year-old Purdy, who murdered five children and wounded 30, had been on *Amitriptvine, an anti-depressant, as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine*.
> *Joseph T. Wesbecker (1989) *In another famous case, 47-year-old Joseph T. Wesbecker, just a month after he began taking *Prozac *in 1989, shot 20 workers at Standard Gravure Corp. in Louisville, Ky., killing nine. Prozac maker Eli Lilly later settled a lawsuit brought by survivors.
> ...


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The perp will be having blood tests to see what was in his system. He could have been taking several drugs at once.
It is too late now but he should have had some help a very long time ago. Flunking the 9th grade twice would send enough red flags to alert most families to send the kid to a counselor or a psychologist to see what was wrong.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

He was a hatefilled terrorist. Period. It is a good thing to get a better handle if prescription or other drugs played a part or he was mentally ill but none of it changes he was a hatefilled terrorist. 
There are plenty of others who have had mental illness or whatever sad story is part of his life who did not kill.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

where I want to said:


> He was a hatefilled terrorist. Period. It is a good thing to get a better handle if prescription or other drugs played a part or he was mentally ill but none of it changes he was a hatefilled terrorist.
> There are plenty of others who have had mental illness or whatever sad story is part of his life who did not kill.


Most people with mental illness don't kill. That's not the point. The problem is a small percentage of people who take drugs for mental illnesses exhibit side effects of aggression, paranoia, fantasy, etc. As readily as these drugs are prescribed, it's not a surprise that every year we have young men involved in mass killings.

It sounds like this young man showed no signs of racism until fairly recently. So what caused it?


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I hate to think this will be another brick in the wall of race relations. Seems like black Americans just need a big warm hug from the rest of the population, even if it is a symbolic one. And to hear they are valued by all but a few of the most messed up human beings ever born. Seems like there is some opportunity here for healing with universal condemnation of that cowardly little weasel and especially by not using the tragedy to score political points.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Most people with mental illness don't kill. That's not the point. The problem is a small percentage of people who take drugs for mental illnesses exhibit side effects of aggression, paranoia, fantasy, etc. As readily as these drugs are prescribed, it's not a surprise that every year we have young men involved in mass killings.
> 
> It sounds like this young man showed no signs of racism until fairly recently. So what caused it?


Psychosis? Illegal drugs? 

*If* he was on anti-psychotic drugs he was under the care of a psychiatrist. If he was having side effects a trained mental health worker should have been able to discern them. Many anti-psychotic drugs require at least weekly blood draws so he should have been seen at least that often if they were prescribed.


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> It sounds like this young man showed no signs of racism until fairly recently. So what caused it?


I'm not sure where you came across this information.

Everything I'm reading shows that people who went to high school with him remember him making racist statements and his roommate advises he has had a racist mindset.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Your family doctor can prescribe way too many drugs that I feel should be prescribed by a mental professional. IMO.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Jade1096 said:


> I'm not sure where you came across this information.
> 
> Everything I'm reading shows that people who went to high school with him remember him making racist statements and his roommate advises he has had a racist mindset.


I'm not sure why this thread resists the idea that this guy is racist.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TripleD said:


> Your family doctor can prescribe way too many drugs that I feel should be prescribed by a mental professional. IMO.


Yeah, that's what we need; laws that restrict how doctors practice medicine.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> Yeah, that's what we need; laws that restrict how doctors practice medicine.


Most general practitioners won't prescribe anti-psychotic drugs, and leave it up to the specialists.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Yeah, that's what we need; laws that restrict how doctors practice medicine.


Wow ! You want your family doctor doing your triple bypass ???


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Most general practitioners won't prescribe anti-psychotic drugs, and leave it up to the specialists.


Is Prozac on that list ?


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> I'm not sure why this thread resists the idea that this guy is racist.


Me either.
I mean, the guy said, "I'm killing you because you are black."

I'm not sure how much more cut and dried it can be.

But then also, like many horrific crimes, I also don't think it can boil down to one issue. And most of the viewpoints expressed in this thread are correct, imho.

It is a mental health issue.
It is a race issue.
It is an issue of a gun in the hands of a nutbag.

He does have a drug problem.
He is a racist.
He shouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun.
He does have mental health issues.

Just because any one of those statements is true, doesn't mean that the other statements cannot be equally true.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

TripleD said:


> Is Prozac on that list ?


Nope. Prozac is an anti-depressant.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Most general practitioners won't prescribe anti-psychotic drugs, and leave it up to the specialists.


My observation has been that family doctors prescribe meds like prosac & zoloft all the time.


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> I'm not sure why this thread resists the idea that this guy is racist.


Probably because that opens the door to all other kinds of uncomfortable things...like possibly being wrong about cops killing black people and the persistent myth of rampant breeding black welfare queens.

I do note that no one in this thread is asking "Where are his parents?!"
or lambasting the fact that he didn't finish school and suggesting laziness, addiction to drugs due to his own shortcomings as a human, etc. etc., like was seen in the threads about young black men being shot by officers.
Instead they are suggesting it is a mental health issue, or blaming the drugs altogether while saying, "tsk, tsk, I mean, of course it's awful but it obviously has to be caused by external factors, like drugs." 

Like that is what turned him into a racist dirtbag.
He was made, pure and simple. 
He didn't drop out of outer space as an adult fully formed racist with a drug/mental problem.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> My observation has been that family doctors prescribe meds like prosac & zoloft all the time.


Oh, they do but prozac and zoloft (they are actually older anti-depressants) aren't anti-psychotic drugs.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

*The Lawyer Who Handled Dylann Roof&#8217;s Drug Case Says He Seemed Like "Just a Normal Kid"*

&#8212;By AJ Vicens
Thu Jun. 18, 201

After Dylann Storm Roof was arrested Thursday morning for allegedly shooting nine people at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, Ken Mathews, an attorney who has been representing Roof in an ongoing drug-possession case, was, he says, "very shocked" to hear about what Roof had allegedly done. He tells _Mother Jones, _"The dealings I had with him, he was just a normal kid."
Mathews, a Columbia, South Carolina, attorney, notes that so far in the drug case he has had "very limited dealings" with Roof. He says he saw "nothing that would indicate that [Roof] would take this type of action."
The local police have called the shooting a hate crime. Mathews says he has seen no signs that Roof harbored any racial animus: "I had no inkling of anything like that in the dealings I had with him."
Mathews has known the Roof family for years, dating back to a custody dispute between Dylann's father Ben and mother Amy over visitation rights concerning Dylann. Mathews says he spoke to Dylann's father this morning, and "it's very, very difficult."
Mathews became Roof's lawyer after Roof was arrested in March at the Columbiana Centre, a mall in Columbia, and charged with possession of suboxone, a drug used to treat opiate withdrawals. Mathews says Roof had gone into some stores and "asked people some questions, which made some people uncomfortable," including what time the stores closed. Someone at one of the stores contacted the authorities. Roof was stopped and searched, according to Mathews, and the police found he was carrying suboxone and arrested him. Roof was also given a trespassing warning, which he violated a couple of weeks later, Mathews notes, and Roof was subsequently cited for trespassing.
Here's what else we know about Roof:
read more.........
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/dylann-roofs-attorney


I think this is probably more credible since the lawyer actually knew him and would have not bias rather than supposed roommates and "friends", some who have not seen him since middle school and one had known him only a few months.
Daily Beast s reporting that He was also using Meth and cocaine.
The drug of choice in prisons now is Suboxone. Iit's not just for withdrawals. It's the most powerful opiate available


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> I think this is probably more credible since the lawyer actually knew him and would have not bias rather than supposed roommates and "friends", some who have not seen him since middle school and one had known him only a few months.
> Daily Beast s reporting that He was also using Meth and cocaine.
> The drug of choice in prisons now is Suboxone. Iit's not just for withdrawals. It's the most powerful opiate available


I don't care if he gets high or not, he's still a racist.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure why this thread resists the idea that this guy is racist.


How does one become a racist? Are they born that way?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> How does one become a racist? Are they born that way?


I'm certain that racism is a learned trait.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Jade1096 said:


> Probably because that opens the door to all other kinds of uncomfortable things...like possibly being wrong about cops killing black people and the persistent myth of rampant breeding black welfare queens.
> 
> I do not that no one in this thread is asking "Where are his parents?!"
> or lambasting the fact that he didn't finish school and suggesting laziness, addiction to drugs due to his own shortcomings as a human, etc. etc., like was seen in the threads about young black men being shot by officers.
> ...


I don't follow your logic. How is mass murder similar to a white cop killing a black male? Was he born as a racist? If not, where did his racism come from? What would make him think that shooting blacks would start a race war? 

There is the obvious which is, he acted in a racist manner. Then there is the not so obvious. Why? Some of us are focused on the why?


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> I'm certain that racism is a learned trait.


So where did it come from and why did it motivate him to become a mass murderer?


----------



## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> I think this is probably more credible since the lawyer actually knew him and would have not bias rather than supposed roommates and "friends", some who have not seen him since middle school and one had known him only a few months.


Right. A lawyer that probably met with him once or twice for a few minutes each time, when his client was probably quiet and on his best behavior, is MORE credible than people who went to school with him or the guy that lived with him.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't follow your logic. How is mass murder similar to a white cop killing a black male? Was he born as a racist? If not, where did his racism come from? What would make him think that shooting blacks would start a race war?
> 
> There is the obvious which is, he acted in a racist manner. Then there is the not so obvious. Why? Some of us are focused on the why?


1. He was born into a racist family.

2. He was around racist people a lot.

3. A black person did something he hated.

That's just 3 off the top of my head.........


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> So where did it come from and why did it motivate him to become a mass murderer?


Of course, I don't know enough about him to know for sure. What's your purpose in asking?


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Of course, I don't know enough about him to know for sure. What's your purpose in asking?


It seems to me that for him to be defined as racist, we need to know his motivation. The act was racist, but if the perpetrator's view of reality was distorted by drugs, is he necessarily racist? Or, what if he is racist, but the action was caused by drug side effects?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Jade1096 said:


> Right. A lawyer that probably met with him once or twice for a few minutes each time, when his client was probably quiet and on his best behavior, is MORE credible than people who went to school with him or the guy that lived with him.



The lawyer has known him and the whole family for many years. Dylann has not been to school in 6 years.

The people who know his father claim that he is a happy go lucky kind of hippie partier with a house full of like minded people around, both white and black. They also claim the kid was that way too. Not the best way for a kid to grow up but that does not sound like a racist environment.
I have not seen anything printed about the mother.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Jade1096 said:


> Probably because that opens the door to all other kinds of uncomfortable things...like possibly being wrong about cops killing black people and the persistent myth of rampant breeding black welfare queens.
> 
> I do note that no one in this thread is asking "Where are his parents?!"
> or lambasting the fact that he didn't finish school and suggesting laziness, addiction to drugs due to his own shortcomings as a human, etc. etc., like was seen in the threads about young black men being shot by officers.
> ...


I notice you left out one group. The group that doesn't care why he did it. All we care about is finding out if he is guilty, then punishing him in the harshest way possible. See page 2, post number 22.

And as far as your asking why no one is questioning his parents, he is an adult. He is responsible for his own actions!


----------



## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> I don't follow your logic. How is mass murder similar to a white cop killing a black male?


My point was that some people are going through very strenuous mental gymnastics to avoid calling this guy a racist murderer. Some of those same people also strenuously deny that there is a race problem in America and have gone through the same twisting and gymnastics to deny or cast a different reasoning on other recent events that show a very serious race problem in the US. Some of those people might be afraid that calling a racist a racist might be the first step in opening that door of maybe examining those other events. 



> Was he born as a racist? If not, where did his racism come from?


 Are you asking nature vs nurture? I personally believe that racism is absolutely a learned behavior. I've never seen a case made for someone being born racist.



> What would make him think that shooting blacks would start a race war?


Not only do I not know, I also don't care. I don't mean that as flippant as it sounds. I've been in law enforcement for the better part of two decades now and there are times when the crime is so heinous I really just don't have any compassion or empathy or desire to understand his mindset. This would be one of those times. This coward specifically targeted black people and said that he is doing this because "You are raping white women and taking over." Note that he didn't attack a large group of those that would stereotypically be thought capable of rape, ie a group of young and virile black males. You didn't see him walk into a fraternity or sports hall filled with those strong enough to fight back. No, he mostly killed elderly women at church. So I really don't care why he thought it would cause a race war.
I'm not sure why you specifically ask or care. 



> There is the obvious which is, he acted in a racist manner. Then there is the not so obvious. Why? Some of us are focused on the why?


He acted in a racist manner.
Really?
And with one sentence you attempt to sanitize his actions. I wonder why you would choose to word it that way. Are you trying to separate his actions from him?
Yeah, "he acted in a racist manner" sounds a lot better than "he's a racist mass murderer."


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Anyone hear any info about why this guy drove so far to find Blacks to kill. Why this Church? I realize Churches usally are gun free zones, but he could have killed so much closer to home. Did he also hate the religious?


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> And as far as your asking why no one is questioning his parents, he is an adult. He is responsible for his own actions!


---- right.

So when there are threads about black people rioting in the streets, why are so many posts here asking about where the parents are? Or asking where the fathers are or whether they are involved in the lives of their young adult children?

I was noting the difference.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> It seems to me that for him to be defined as racist, we need to know his motivation. The act was racist, but if the perpetrator's view of reality was distorted by drugs, is he necessarily racist? Or, what if he is racist, but the action was caused by drug side effects?


According to the news, he wanted to start a race war because he believed that the black race was dragging whites down. I don't know where he got those ideas, but they're still racist ideas.

It sounds like you're suggesting that since we don't know where he got his racist ideas that he's not racist. That's absurd on its face.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HDRider said:


> We are denying the American reality if we deny we have a problem between blacks and whites.


Yet nobody seems to ever mention racism among black people, they deny it or just don't mention it.
If a black guy shoots a white guy, race isn't mentioned, but if a white guy shoots a black guy, it's the main focus and it's a hate crime.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Jade1096 said:


> ---- right.
> 
> So when there are threads about black people rioting in the streets, why are so many posts here asking about where the parents are? Or asking where the fathers are or whether they are involved in the lives of their young adult children?
> 
> I was noting the difference.


I did hear on the news that his Mother had taken away the gun and he had stold it back from her. I also thought it was quite strange that the news had to mention that he lived with his mother in a log cabin. Sure, I figured that ment something(?), log cabin living messes people up? Strange, the things we have to pick thru to get what they are trying to imply.


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> The lawyer has known him and the whole family for many years.


Then how can he not have a bias?

Furthermore, I would not say that when I was 21, family friends who knew my parents knew me better than a roommate would, or schoolmates.
I'm fairly certain that I was one person in front of my family and acted a bit differently in front of my peers.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Another White man "attacking" a Church. The incident started about 8:45 p.m. when children inside the black church saw a white man banging on the door, using a racial slur and saying, "You're taking over," according to Lydia Jones, a church member.
Some witnesses initially thought the object the man was holding was a machete, she said. http://www.richmond.com/news/local/...cle_8764390a-079c-530a-9ee0-11c58084ec5f.html


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> I also thought it was quite strange that the news had to mention that he lived with his mother in a log cabin.


Who knows.
If I had to guess, I would bet they will attempt to spin some sort of isolation/abuse theory out there.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

7thswan said:


> Another White man "attacking" a Church. The incident started about 8:45 p.m. when children inside the black church saw a white man banging on the door, using a racial slur and saying, "You're taking over," according to Lydia Jones, a church member.
> Some witnesses initially thought the object the man was holding was a machete, she said. http://www.richmond.com/news/local/...cle_8764390a-079c-530a-9ee0-11c58084ec5f.html


Strange story. At least nobody got hurt. He needed to be taken away in a rubber truck for sure.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> But can't anyone who kills another be similarly mentally disturbed, drug addled or otherwise lacking mental capacity? Is there a limit on how many one must kill before the question is broached?


I realize that the victims involved are still just as dead, but there's a difference in someone killing b/c its an intruder, or in the heat of the moment, even. I cannot understand that-even-but I do see a difference in that if you can kill a bunch of innocents w/o batting an eye, something is terribly wrong vs heat of the moment...most of us cannot fathom methodically shooting folks IN CHURCH! I am really upset about this. There was another such incident in Dallas, maybe a decade ago. Horrific. 
Some say mentally ill. I maintain there IS evil sometimes...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

where I want to said:


> He was a hatefilled terrorist. Period. It is a good thing to get a better handle if prescription or other drugs played a part or he was mentally ill but none of it changes he was a hatefilled terrorist.
> There are plenty of others who have had mental illness or whatever sad story is part of his life who did not kill.


Yup. My vote is: 'evil'.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Some say mentally ill. I maintain there IS evil sometimes...


Or just plain racist.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I hate to think this will be another brick in the wall of race relations. Seems like black Americans just need a big warm hug from the rest of the population, even if it is a symbolic one. And to hear they are valued by all but a few of the most messed up human beings ever born. Seems like there is some opportunity here for healing with universal condemnation of that cowardly little weasel and especially by not using the tragedy to score political points.


Post of the day award.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I just read that some of the pro-football players who played at USC and Clemson are so saddened by what has happened in Charleston and suggest that people who are so upset but don't know how to help send some money to the relief fund at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

7thswan said:


> Anyone hear any info about why this guy drove so far to find Blacks to kill. Why this Church? I realize Churches usally are gun free zones, but he could have killed so much closer to home. Did he also hate the religious?


It's a deeply historically important church in black history, that may have been the reason.


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

Not much phases me anymore but this...

This just makes me cry.

I just keep picturing my granny sitting in church on a Wednesday night. Happy...smiling...surrounded by her friends.

I know if she saw a young man sitting at the back of the church, she would attempt to get him to engage in the bible study. Would definitely invite him to supper/fellowship hall afterwards...

Those people were someone's parents...someone's son/daughter...someone's Meemaw and PawPaw and Nana.

Can you imagine your Nana sitting in church and being shot?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Jade1096 said:


> He acted in a racist manner.
> Really?
> And with one sentence you attempt to sanitize his actions. I wonder why you would choose to word it that way. Are you trying to separate his actions from him?
> Yeah, "he acted in a racist manner" sounds a lot better than "he's a racist mass murderer."


When a person acts outside the norm, it is deviant behavior. It is not normal. So why does a person decide to commit a deviant act of this magnitude. I can't think of a single person I have ever known that was racist to the point of considering murdering a black person.

People here are throwing out the term racist and racism like it is common for a white person to be racist and murder a black person. It rarely happens. There may be a lot of racists, but they don't commit murder.

So it is reasonable to try to figure out what caused him to act out. What would motivate a 21 yo, uneducated white man to go to a church, sit there for an hour, and then pull out a gun and start killing people. Racism doesn't cause other 21 yo white men to kill blacks, so why him? What would cause a person to go from hatred to murder?

From the mass shootings over the last 10 years or so, we know that prescription psychotropic drugs were often used by the perpetrator(s). It seems logical to me to find out if he was taking any drug that could have triggered his action to commit senseless murders.

He planned to die. This was a suicide mission. Being racist doesn't make one suicidal. Blaming this on racism seems to easy to me. It fits an agenda. It takes the easy answer.

On the other hand, if we find out that someone he looked up to is racist and coached him and taught him to be racist, then maybe that's the answer. But still there had to have been something that triggered his action.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> I can think of a couple who, if given the right circumstances, would kill another base on race. I grew up with some who would go out of their way to provoke fights based on race.
> 
> I was discussing this incident with a friend of mine last night. He asked me a question I can't answer. Why, when a white kid commits a mass murder does the conversation turn immediately to mental illness and drug addled behavior? Why when a black kid shoots someone is he just a thug?


Your post made me think of the sayings,

You teach people how to treat you, and
You create your own reality.

There's some truth in both of those, I think.

And, I think a lot of young men are being groomed in a dysfunctional way from a very young age, and then acting out in ways that fit the lousy preconceived notions that society assigns them. Tyoe-casting creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

Lots of little white boys are put on rx drugs from a young age because there's pressure to alter their behavior.

And, lots of little black boys are treated as though there should be suspicion of them, and so they should be considered a suspect or a possible threat.

I'm not saying it's an excuse for any crimes. But, I think there is a cycle that needs to be broken there and it does seem at least somewhat more or less prominent in each of those demographics or races.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Jade1096 said:


> Not much phases me anymore but this...
> 
> This just makes me cry.
> 
> ...


I know, it's horrible. They welcomed among them and he sat with them for quite awhile. There is a short phone video taken of the shooter inside taken by one of the people sitting. I have no idea if the person that took the video was harmed.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> When a person acts outside the norm, it is deviant behavior. It is not normal. So why does a person decide to commit a deviant act of this magnitude. I can't think of a single person I have ever known that was racist to the point of considering murdering a black person.
> 
> People here are throwing out the term racist and racism like it is common for a white person to be racist and murder a black person. It rarely happens. There may be a lot of racists, but they don't commit murder.
> 
> ...


This is a very good post. I think it is just natural for us to wonder why even though we are horrified about what he did. It is not normal behavior. He even called a couple of people in the church by name like he knew them. None of us in Savannah or Charleston have ever heard of anything like this. We have had our share of racial problems in the past but still nothing to the magnitude of this. People can say that he is a strict segregationist, (a term I haven't heard since the days of Lester Maddox) but it does not fit here.


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

> When a person acts outside the norm, it is deviant behavior. It is not normal. So why does a person decide to commit a deviant act of this magnitude. I can't think of a single person I have ever known that was
> racist to the point of considering murdering a black person.


How many people have you known that were ___________________(fill in the blank) enough to commit ANY murder?
I suppose ALL murderers could be called deviant since most people don't go around committing murder.



> People here are throwing out the term racist and racism like it is common for a white person to be racist and murder a black person.


No one has said that it is a common event. They have said that it does happen. And no one is saying that being white equals being a murderer of black people or that being white equals being racist. They have said that it does happen. In this case, it is safe to assume that he is racist due to the fact that he admitted that he did it, and that the told the victims, I am doing this because you are black.



> So it is reasonable to try to figure out what caused him to act out. What would motivate a 21 yo, uneducated white man to go to a church, sit there for an hour, and then pull out a gun and start killing people. Racism doesn't cause other 21 yo white men to kill blacks, so why him? What would cause a person to go from hatred to murder?


So you are interested in the reason why he did this because....?
It's an interesting social commentary? Because you are afraid Roof won't get a fair trial? Because...what?



> From the mass shootings over the last 10 years or so, we know that prescription psychotropic drugs were often used by the perpetrator(s). It seems logical to me to find out if he was taking any drug that could have triggered his action to commit senseless murders.


Why? So you can blame the drugs?



> Blaming this on racism seems to easy to me. It fits an agenda. It takes the easy answer.


What exactly is your agenda?
The guy is a confirmed racist yet you are hell bent on determining a deeper reason and care deeply about the infinite workings of his mind, his chemical makeup at the time of the crime, whether he was raised racist or coached into it, or whatever, etc, etc.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Jade1096 said:


> How many people have you known that were ___________________(fill in the blank) enough to commit ANY murder?
> I suppose ALL murderers could be called deviant since most people don't go around committing murder.
> 
> 
> ...


There appears to be a common thread with these killers. That commonality is psychotropic drugs. I'd like to know if Roof was on antidepressants. It may be a reason for this insane behavior.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Jade1096 said:


> How many people have you known that were ___________________(fill in the blank) enough to commit ANY murder?
> I suppose ALL murderers could be called deviant since most people don't go around committing murder.
> 
> 
> ...


I did not hear him say that he did what he did because they were Black. From what I heard him say, he is very angry at Blacks; he might have specific reasons in his mind. I also read from (probably scrubbed by now) face book-he had mostly Black friends.
PS. not to mention these were Good people, he could have killed many Blacks in a bad part of town with his car if he is just wanting to kill. It just makes no sence to people that would not even think of this kind of thing, so they try to understand the workings of a killer of any kind. Look at all the crime shows on TV, it's just normal to want to know, makes life less scary.


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## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I just find it stunning that so many people here called black people animals and thugs, etc, when blacks were rioting.
Questioned their raising, their parents, their education, whether or not they were on welfare, etc, etc. For rioting.

This white man walks into a church, hangs out with them for an hour, then shoots and kills 9 of them.
And the overwhelming sentiment that we MUST figure out WHY he killed these people and refusing to call him a racist. People are refusing to soundly condemn his actions w/o adding a caveat and a "but" and/or looking for an excuse to somehow make his crime seem less heinous if they can say it was because he was on drugs.
Not one of those same people offered the same navel gazing when it was a black thug committing a crime that didn't involve murder. And I suspect wouldn't give two ****s about the WHY if it was a black thug that did murder one someone much less nine someones.

With that I'm stepping away from the thread for the rest of the evening.


I feel a desperate need to go and hug my granny and spend some time with her tonight.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure why this thread resists the idea that this guy is racist.


 I've only noticed one person in the thread resisting that idea.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Maybe some of the "woundering" also has to do with him looking so much like those School shooters we've seen. Those didn't have to do with race, but the same strange emptyness in them.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

7thswan said:


> Maybe some of the "woundering" also has to do with him looking so much like those School shooters we've seen. Those didn't have to do with race, but the same strange emptyness in them.


It is true! They had the same spaced out look on their faces. It fits because they knew that they would probably be killed in return.
It reminds me too of the radical Islamic terrorists who have decided to die for their cause. It was a suicide mission. He had to know that he would be killed one way or the other. *Dylan* Klebold is the one that I am thinking about.​


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Jade1096 said:


> How many people have you known that were ___________________(fill in the blank) enough to commit ANY murder?
> I suppose ALL murderers could be called deviant since most people don't go around committing murder.
> 
> No one has said that it is a common event. They have said that it does happen. And no one is saying that being white equals being a murderer of black people or that being white equals being racist. They have said that it does happen. In this case, it is safe to assume that he is racist due to the fact that he admitted that he did it, and that the told the victims, I am doing this because you are black.


But people are saying it happened because he is racist, and I'm saying racists rarely, if ever, commit mass murder. It just doesn't make sense to me that racism was the cause. There is no pattern.



> So you are interested in the reason why he did this because....?
> It's an interesting social commentary? Because you are afraid Roof won't get a fair trial? Because...what?


Because that's how my mind works. I was a sociology major and I am always curious as to why someone commits a deviant act. The best way to prevent it, is to understand the motivation behind it.

The judicial system will decide if he is innocent or guilty, and if he lives or dies. I am not commenting on guilt or innocence, but on causation.



> Why? So you can blame the drugs?


I'm looking for causation, not blame. We know that the young white males at Columbine, the guy that shot Gaby Giffords, the guy at Colorado theater, and the guy at the Conn school were all taking psychotropic drugs. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, nothing has been done about it. Politics trumps prevention, and I think there is a good chance that Charleston is just one more example.



> What exactly is your agenda?
> The guy is a confirmed racist yet you are hell bent on determining a deeper reason and care deeply about the infinite workings of his mind, his chemical makeup at the time of the crime, whether he was raised racist or coached into it, or whatever, etc, etc.


There is no causal relationship between being racist and being a mass murderer, yet you seem to believe there is. To blame it on racism, imo is to ignore the real cause. Without knowing the real cause, the best we can do is to take superficial actions to try to prevent something like this from happening again. Well, how has the government done so far at preventing young white males from committing mass murders?

We know little to nothing about his life from when he left school in the 9th grade until about 6 months ago. When that information gets filled in, we will likely know what led him to do what he did. Everything else, including my opinion, is just guessing.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

If we never find out the details of why he caused this terror and the murders to those poor people in that church, then we won't ever know what to look for in the future. I would love to know if Dylann was religious or was he a non-believer. He was definitely racist or he would not have gone to a black church but there are plenty of black churches in Columbia. I wonder if he ever met any of the people who were in the church? Was there something that had happened to set him off?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Jade1096 said:


> I guess I just find it stunning that so many people here called black people animals and thugs, etc, when blacks were rioting.
> Questioned their raising, their parents, their education, whether or not they were on welfare, etc, etc. For rioting.
> 
> This white man walks into a church, hangs out with them for an hour, then shoots and kills 9 of them.
> ...


Hug granny an extra time for me. I sure miss mine....

To put the shoe on the other foot, why is it so important in your mind to affix the label of racism? I happen to think what he did went way beyond racism...into terrorism. 

Racist is having a tizzy when your kid brings home a black date, or enjoying a slanderous joke, or maybe even passing over someone in a hiring situation. It happens less and less as time goes on, but sure, it still happens. But when you change from having a slight superiority complex about race to being willing to murder all those people in cold blood, racism just isn't strong enough a term to suit me. Or maybe "Racism" has been so over-used it is diluted and doesn't have the impact it used to?

I was among those who said some not so kind things about the demonstrators, rioters and looters in Ferguson. That wasn't racist, because that was judging them on their actions - not their skin. There were whites holding "hands up" signs and perpetuating that fantasy too. I did not personally catch any video of white looters but that doesn't mean there weren't any. A thug is a thug no matter how much pigment. 

This was just a shocking human tragedy. Setting everything else aside, the families and the church members just need to feel support and sympathy from ALL other Americans. Let the grieving process happen naturally without turning it into a "who is more enlightened" contest, or a political issue. 

The answer to "why" probably isn't going to make any of those surviving family members feel a bit better. They just need to know people are feeling for them, praying for them if they are of faith, and wishing right along with them that it never happened. I might send a sympathy card to the church. If they received a truckload of them, wonder if the message would be clear that they are cared about?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> He was definitely racist or he would not have gone to a black church but there are plenty of black churches in Columbia.


The fact that he went out of his way to go to such a famous black church is troubling. It suggests that he did what he did to send a message to the black community, which makes it terrorism. I'm sure the prosecutor is thinking the same thing.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> Secondary, perhaps.
> 
> You think racism drives sane people to mass murder?


Absolutely. You really think all the racist murders committed all over the world since the beginning of humanity were done by insane people?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

7thswan said:


> Yes, he wanted a Civil war. We keep talking about it elsewhere, and I have stated it here. People are being pushed to accept things that they are not ready for or they do not want. Pushing the bad cop issue all the while telling people to overlook what the thugs(can't say that -PC don't you know) are doing to get in trouble with Cops.It's constant with this regime, stirring the pot. Someone ,drugs,mental, whatever -goes over the edge. Summer is just starting and the regime has only so much time left.


Um wow. No words for this one. You guys never cease to amaze.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Patchouli said:


> Um wow. No words for this one. You guys never cease to amaze.


Every word he said was true


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Um wow. No words for this one. You guys never cease to amaze.



Amazing, you guys never cease to amaze either.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> The fact that he went out of his way to go to such a famous black church is troubling. It suggests that he did what he did to send a message to the black community, which makes it terrorism. I'm sure the prosecutor is thinking the same thing.


What about the hundreds of whites killed by blacks every year?
Why doesn't that bother you?
Why doesn't it bother the Obama's of the world?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> The fact that he went out of his way to go to such a famous black church is troubling. It suggests that he did what he did to send a message to the black community, which makes it terrorism. I'm sure the prosecutor is thinking the same thing.


I read a little while ago that the prosecutor is looking at domestic terrorism charges.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Cornhusker said:


> What about the hundreds of whites killed by blacks every year?
> Why doesn't that bother you?
> Why doesn't it bother the Obama's of the world?


It is not like it never happens either. It happens all the time.
It bothers me.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> What about the hundreds of whites killed by blacks every year?
> Why doesn't that bother you?


It doesn't bother me?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It doesn't bother me?


Well, you never mention it when it happens. Kinda says it all right there!

Does it bother you?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Well, you never mention it when it happens. Kinda says it all right there!
> 
> Does it bother you?


It bothers me when ANYONE dies, even when someone dies from a medical condition.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> It seems to me that for him to be defined as racist, we need to know his motivation. The act was racist, but if the perpetrator's view of reality was distorted by drugs, is he necessarily racist? Or, what if he is racist, but the action was caused by drug side effects?


It should be quite obvious he was racist long before he was getting high

Drugs don't make one racist

Drugs magnify traits that already exist


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> Absolutely. You really think all the racist murders committed all over the world since the beginning of humanity were done by insane people?


Let me take a stab at that. Racist behavior is normal behavior for much of the world and has been since man started living in groups. You protect your group from the others, from the different ones. Killing someone outside the group was considered not only sane, but moral.

Non-racist behavior is relatively new and is largely learned behavior. Racism was normal behavior in the US as little as 50 years ago. Both sides had to learn how to be non-racists. 

The US is one of the least racist countries in the world, but you wouldn't know it from what the media tells us.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It should be quite obvious he was racist long before he was getting high
> 
> Drugs don't make one racist
> 
> Drugs magnify traits that already exist


We don't know when he 1st started taking drugs and we don't know what drugs he took. But the part of the brain that controls things like impulse control and right/wrong are still being formed during the teen years of a male and can can be damaged by some drugs.

Some drugs can also make him more susceptible to ideas like racism. Things that are not socially acceptable.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> We don't know when he 1st started taking drugs and we don't know what drugs he took. But the part of the brain that controls things like impulse control and right/wrong are still being formed during the teen years of a male and can can be damaged by some drugs.
> 
> Some drugs can also make him more susceptible to ideas like racism. Things that are not socially acceptable.


Drugs still don't make one racist.
That's environmental, not chemical


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Drugs still don't make one racist.
> That's environmental, not chemical


But a drug can lower inhibitions so that a person will do things they wouldn't have without the influence of the drug. They can also distort reality to the point where racism and *********** sounded logical.

Alter someone's brain and you can get them to do or say almost anything. That's why drugs are used to turn spies and get them to talk. :stars:

I was recently on a blood pressure medication that should have been discontinued years ago. My doc didn't warn me about it and the side effects snuck up on me over a period of weeks. When I checked online, I read one horror story after another from people who had been prescribed this drug.

This was for blood pressure. What I am worried about is these young males are being given brain altering drugs at exactly the worst possible time, when their brains are most vulnerable.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> Let me take a stab at that. Racist behavior is normal behavior for much of the world and has been since man started living in groups. You protect your group from the others, from the different ones. Killing someone outside the group was considered not only sane, but moral.
> 
> Non-racist behavior is relatively new and is largely learned behavior. Racism was normal behavior in the US as little as 50 years ago. Both sides had to learn how to be non-racists.
> 
> The US is one of the least racist countries in the world, but you wouldn't know it from what the media tells us.



We have had a lot more racial problems since Obama was elected because he is so divisive.

*Under Obama, 4 in 10 Say Race Relations Worsened...
www.cnn.com/2015/03/...obama-race-relations-worse/index.html

Mar 12, 2015 Â· Four in 10 Americans say race relations in the United States have gotten worse under the nation's first black president, according to a new CNN/ORC poll. *


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Wow. I jus read an amazing article on yahoo (of all places). It had several quotes from the victims' families when they spoke out in court to the shooter.

Absolutely inspiring to hear them speak of having forgiveness even in their pain. That is something I have so much respect for them doing. In this era of over saturation of sound bites "hands up don't shoot" comes to mind, these people are putting out words in circulation that will help all the people who must be devastated in their community to stay focused on something other than revenge.

I'm praying that community doesn't face horrible rioting.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

gibbsgirl said:


> Wow. I jus read an amazing article on yahoo (of all places). It had several quotes from the victims' families when they spoke out in court to the shooter.
> 
> Absolutely inspiring to hear them speak of having forgiveness even in their pain. That is something I have so much respect for them doing. In this era of over saturation of sound bites "hands up don't shoot" comes to mind, these people are putting out words in circulation that will help all the people who must be devastated in their community to stay focused on something other than revenge.
> 
> I'm praying that community doesn't face horrible rioting.


And the videos show the entire community coming together with no politics being played. Hurray for Charleston, South Carolina and hurray for the South.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

There will be a unity march tomorrow across the Cooper River Bridge in Charleston. People will be holding hands for unity. All are invited to join in.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> But a drug can lower inhibitions so that a person will do things they wouldn't have without the influence of the drug. They can also distort reality to the point where racism and *********** sounded logical.


Maybe so, but I'm skeptical that drugs would make someone behave contrary to his fundamental makeup. I have to agree with BFF, drugs aren't going to make someone racist.

On the other hand, I've been to South Carolina. Racist people aren't difficult to find. He may have been racist all along.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Maybe so, but I'm skeptical that drugs would make someone behave contrary to his fundamental makeup. I have to agree with BFF, drugs aren't going to make someone racist.
> 
> On the other hand, I've been to South Carolina. Racist people aren't difficult to find. He may have been racist all along.


Right, the people in SC are racist. That's why they elected Tom Scott to the House and then the Senate. That's why they elected Nikki Haley as governor. And that's why the community came together in solidarity after this senseless murder, unlike Ferguson and Baltimore.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I'm not the least bit surprised.

Racial hatred is alive and well, recently demonstrated by the _white cops_ vs _black suspect_ spectacles, we cant get enough of.

It's laughable to blame Obama, as if having a black POTUS neutralized all racial problems.

When people started stocking up on guns and ammo, for _the end of the world, _it's likely they weren't protecting themselves from_ rich white folks.

_people arezappped out on script drugs, getting demensia, discruntled ith the world, etc.Just another preview of the coming attraction_, unfortunately. _It is good people are taking it peaceably this time.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Maybe so, but I'm skeptical that drugs would make someone behave contrary to his fundamental makeup. I have to agree with BFF, drugs aren't going to make someone racist.
> 
> On the other hand, I've been to South Carolina. Racist people aren't difficult to find. He may have been racist all along.


Are you saying that drugs don't have an effect on the human brain? Look up "bath salts", LSD, opiates, ever know anyone who got drunk. None of this can have any influence? You were a paramedic, ever deal with a druggie, what about PCP? I have. Drugs can cause someone to irrational things. While I do believe that this killer may be racist, drugs, especially psychotropic drugs certainly do have an effect, and make people act irrationally. What one thing do these "kids" have in common? (Not sure about this last one yet, but I suspect he is/was on them)

I've been to Compton, your right, racists are pretty easy to find. What about racists like Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, Wright, Holder, Jerrett,...etc... Why do you tolerate them?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But a drug can lower inhibitions so that a person *will do things they wouldn't have* without the influence of the drug. They can also distort reality to the point where racism and *********** sounded logical.


That's what I said

It brings out what is already there.
It doesn't plant new ideas

He didn't get high and suddenly start thinking racist thoughts

He's a product of his environment more so than any pills, along with his low IQ


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I've been to Compton, your right, racists are pretty easy to find. What about racists like Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, Wright, Holder, Jerrett,...etc... *Why do you tolerate them?*


The same reason you do


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> I've been to Compton, your right, racists are pretty easy to find. What about racists like Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, Wright, Holder, Jerrett,...etc... Why do you tolerate them?


One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> I'm not the least bit surprised.
> 
> Racial hatred is alive and well, recently demonstrated by the _white cops_ vs _black suspect_ spectacles, we cant get enough of.
> 
> ...



Yes, unfortunately it usually is good folks that get the shaft. If he's convicted (I'm sure he will be as he confessed) I would be honored to flip his switch!!

But, how did we get to this point? Schools suck, schools want kids on anti depressants, infrastructure sucks, foreign relations suck, medical care now sucks (except for Nevada), 1% suck, rich white people suck, white people are the only privileged ones. Do you see a connection here?

Liberal policies. Guys like Larry Elder may be right when they say white folks are suppressing their true feelings, and if blacks continue to have the racist attitude they have currently, huge problems will be forthcoming. He may have a point. White people are now a minority here in California, time to turn the table!!!


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> Absolutely. You really think all the racist murders committed all over the world since the beginning of humanity were done by insane people?


Know many murderers?

I've known several hundred. Not real well, but enough to know some by their names when I saw them. Curious enough about some to talk to the guards that were with them or to the guys themselves (not very many female murders).

Murder, for the most part, is a crime of passion. And it's a crime that's directed at specific people...That's why the cops question family, friends and aquaintences, in that order, about any murder. After a person kills the object of their passion, they tend not to kill anyone else. Most of the time, they're not even violent towards anyone else.

Did you know the average murderer is usually one of the best behaved prisoners?

The guy we're talking about in this thread is not your average killer. No, somebody who walks in and shoots nine people, people who have actually shown him kindness, is most definitely not sane. He's psychotic.

Racism is just a secondary problem. It may have helped him delineate his victims, but make no mistake, there were going to be victims, of one kind or another. ust a bomb, waiting to go off.

Tick...Tick...Tick...


----------



## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Nevada said:


> One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.


That is far too over-generalized and is not even remotely true as you claim "always." Lots of mixed marriage people live in white communities and are very comfortable there. And lots of black people are against mixing too.

Neither white or black communities are "much better about accepting mixed marriages." Some black communities are more accepting than some white communities and some white communities are more accepting than some black communities.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.


Maybe your experience, not mine. My neighbors are a mixed race couple, no one around here cares. Can't say the same for Compton, do you think you could just walk down MLK blvd and not be harassed? Would you feel.safe with crips and bloods as neighbors? No, I don't think so. We could switch areas. Boyle Heights? East LA? Does Reginald Denny sound familiar? 

What about my questions? Are you going to play games......again?


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The same reason you do


I don't!! Why do you?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> I don't!! Why do you?


I already answered that one.

There's little point in continuing to ask the question when we all know we have no control over them. 

It's silly to imply we do, or that you "don't tolerate them" when you haven't really done anything about them either


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Nevada said:


> One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.


Geez what a generalization and a wrong one at that. Now granted the "mixed marriages" in my world have been more Hispanic or Indian with white, but the one black/white couple we know right now don't live in the 'hood', they are rural - and the guy, who is black, is an enthusiastic hunter and outdoorsman. Sorry to shatter a good stereotype though.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.





:umno:


I noticed a few replies to this post, and I found it rather startling as well, so I did some digging.:grin:

Nevada, your data is correct, but your conclusion is wrong.
The gap is narrowing, but according to surveys and polls, 96% of blacks vs. 87% of whites approve of interracial marriages.

But that isn't what determines where they live.
While racism may seem to be a logical conclusion why black/white couples don't tend to live in white neighborhoods, there's a bigger factor you overlooked.
Gender.
I'll have to double check, but I think it's 5 times more likely that a black man will marry a white woman than vice versa.
And it's generally the man who makes the final decision on where to live, primarily for employment reasons.
So there IS a reason why they live where they do, but NOT the one you thought.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880679/



The study is quite long, so I'll post the conclusion........





Conclusions
The analysis of the neighborhood location of households headed by mixed-race couples brings the issue of gender to the surface faster than when the object of analysis is a household headed by a same-race couple. Our investigation of the gender makeup in the three most frequently occurring racially mixed partnerships and their relationship to neighborhood location found that not only does race matter, but also that gender matters. In each of these household relationships, the presence of a white male partner is associated with the percentage of the neighborhood of residence that is white. In addition, if the male partner is white, it reduces the likelihood that the households make their home in a diverse neighborhood for white-Asian and white-Latina households. We also found a statistically significant relationship between the percentage of a neighborhood that is black or Latino and the presence of households headed by heterosexual couples with, respectively, a black male or Latino partner.

These results augment those of White and Sassler (2000), who found a race/class/ spouse effect in the residential attainment of mixed couples. Our research similarly detects a gender/race effect in several different models and with different racial pairings. We had access to confidential census information to conduct our investigations; nevertheless, future research, however configured, should pay more attention to intrahousehold gender regimes. Such analyses could address this issue from the &#8220;inside out&#8221; (by examining gender relations within the household and neighborhood context). The work could also be directed from the &#8220;outside in&#8221;&#8212;assessing, for instance, the differential racialization of, say, Latino-white and Latina-white couples by neighbors in preference/attitudinal surveys.

Research in related realms consistently shows that household power relations tilt in favor of male partners in heterosexual couples. What are the implications for theory? One reading of SA theory is that residential attainment is an individual or a collective process and that parsing housing power relations fits albeit awkwardly in such a rubric. SA theory posits that we should find no difference in the residential attainment of, say, white male/Latina households relative to Latino/white female households; their household-level SES characteristics generate potentially different locational outcomes. We demonstrated, both theoretically and empirically, that we can tease out gender effects from such a perspective. The charge for researchers is clear: scholars should pay more attention to gender dynamics in household neighborhood dynamics. Recent related research is trending slightly in this direction. For example, Iceland and Nelson (2010) and Ellis et al. (2006) showed that spousal characteristics usefully predict residential outcomes for immigrants to the United States, in line with spatial assimilation frameworks. Ellis et al. (2006) found suggestive gender effects for some immigrant groups, but new research has yet to build substantively on this outcome.

Place stratification theory is constructed on the idea of racial hierarchy and is associated with the inability of minorities to convert human capital into residential advantage. For households headed by racially mixed couples, the racialization of all household members as nonwhite, no matter the racial claims made by individuals in the household, creates the conditions for subordination. We maintain, and research bears out, that racially plural places provide attractive locations for mixed households (Dalmage 2000; Wright et al. 2011). Inserting gender into place stratification forces us to confront both racial and gender differences and to consider not one but two sets of social hierarchies based on these differences. Our analysis uncovers an important irony. Households headed by racially mixed heterosexual couples literally love across racial divides; gender practices in such households, in general, toe conventional lines. The race of the male partner significantly affects neighborhood location. If the male partner in a racially mixed couple is nonwhite, it raises the chances that the couple resides in a nonwhite neighborhood. Furthermore, the race of the male partner can reduce the likelihood that the household lives in a racially diverse neighborhood.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

The FBI data suggests blacks are actually twice as racist as whites.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Jolly said:


> Rather than a Reagan "gotcha", some of y'all might want to back up and actually think over all the points.
> 
> Then, tell me if I'm right or wrong. And why.




I was in New York at this time.. I was attending school in NYC. As winter was coming on and temperature dipped down it was the cops and volunteers backed by the cops to get the homeless and mental ill off of the streets and the mental ill were the hardest to get help to so they were forced with arrest just to get them help... ended up with one mentally ill lady being the poster child for mentally ill have rights and can't be rounded up and processed thru the system and forced in to group homes hospitals or institutional living places.. persons who cared got her a lawyer.. she won the right to no be institutionalised.

She froze to death the winter after losing... but laws were made to allow them that right.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Farmrbrown, so I guess the study might be saying that the families were choicing to live in certain types of racial areas based on the race if the man/breadwinner?

So we're they showing people that the families were not living there because of racism issues with the neighbors, but it was because they were having racism issues with employers?

My eyes are sleepy tonight, not sure if I totally misread that as I scanned through it.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

gibbsgirl said:


> Farmrbrown, so I guess the study might be saying that the families were choicing to live in certain types of racial areas based on the race if the man/breadwinner?
> 
> So we're they showing people that the families were not living there because of racism issues with the neighbors, but it was because they were having racism issues with employers?
> 
> My eyes are sleepy tonight, not sure if I totally misread that as I scanned through it.


Pretty close, not necessarily race issues with employers, but that men usually decide on a convenient residence based on where they work. The shorter the commute the better.

It may be chauvinist to say that men are the primary breadwinners, but if it's true (men still make more than women by percentage) then the one making the most money decides where they are going to live. Friends, family ties and familiarity may be as important as well as the cost of housing.

Instead of it being the result of community racism, it's more the choosing of the man in the marriage to be near his friends, family and work.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I commented to my wife tonight, that for all the talk about racism lately, especially "down South", that the last two incidents around Charleston show how much really HAS changed......for the better.
A cop shoots a fleeing man in the back and a few days later is in jail for murder.
The church shooter flees and is caught the next day with the aid of friends and family.
His uncle is so distraught he said he'd pull the switch himself if they'd let him.

If that isn't equal protection and justice for all, I don't know what is.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> According to the news, he wanted to start a race war because he believed that the black race was dragging whites down. I don't know where he got those ideas, but they're still racist ideas.
> 
> It sounds like you're suggesting that since we don't know where he got his racist ideas that he's not racist. That's absurd on its face.


Absolutely. 
It is the magnitude of the horrific massacre. Its obvious he's racist, we all know a couple of 'em to a degree. This is monster-ous Its a given he's racist. The definition is thinking one race is better than another. Disliking another race to that point. Doubt that you'd find a definition that states murdering more than a 1/2 dozen of another race in the list of definitions.

This is over the top-would you not agree? There's far more going on. This is nazi behavior to the utmost.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Or just plain racist.


I'm sorry NV. Cannot be. There are just plain racists all over, to a degree. Like I said above. This is pure evil-coming out as racism. My DH's best friends wife is a racist. (who voted for this POTUS 2Xs tho) She'd never harm a black person. But they're beneath her.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gapeach said:


> I just read that some of the pro-football players who played at USC and Clemson are so saddened by what has happened in Charleston and suggest that people who are so upset but don't know how to help send some money to the relief fund at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.


Thanks soo very much, Peach, check written!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.


I think you are still living in the 60's.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I just read that some of the pro-football players who played at USC and Clemson are so saddened by what has happened in Charleston and suggest that people who are so upset but don't know how to help send some money to the relief fund at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.


Your link does not take you to the donation site. This is a direct link to the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church's PayPal donation button. 

http://www.emanuelamechurch.org/#


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Jade1096 said:


> How many people have you known that were ___________________(fill in the blank) enough to commit ANY murder?
> I suppose ALL murderers could be called deviant since most people don't go around committing murder.
> 
> So you are interested in the reason why he did this because....?
> ...


I kinda resent parts of your post. 

Being in law enforcement you should know that ordinary murders, 1 person shooting another, is NOTHING like this...? Other wise we'd have 1000 threads a day going.

I think we all-or at least MOST-here are full of sympathy, feeling much like the folks there. We cannot possibly know the feeling of the families/friends but -like you said earlier-hug your g'mas. 

Did you see the folks at the press conference? All w/signs saying "WHY"!!
We all are identifying w/them and asking the same Question. 

What is so 'off' about that to you? ALL those folks WANT to know "WHY"! We do too! 

Do you think they want to know why so they can blame it on drugs? Its interesting? B/c he was raised wrong? To get a fair trial? Do they ave an agenda? We are hurting over this also. 

To accuse any of us of anything else is just down right MEAN.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Racist or deranged or both?



> *A black drinking buddy* of the white man accused of killing nine people at a Charleston church says the suspect told him a week earlier that he planned to* shoot up a college campus* in the city.
> 
> The friend, Christon Scriven, told The Associated Press on Friday that he thought Dylann Roof&#8217;s statements were just drunken bluster. Still, Scriven said he was concerned enough that he and another friend, Joey Meek, went out to Roof&#8217;s car and retrieved his .45-caliber handgun, hiding it in an air-conditioning vent of a mobile home until they all sobered up.
> 
> ...


gatewaypundit

If he had shot up the college instead of the black church, would this still be racist and a hate crime?


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> Hug granny an extra time for me. I sure miss mine....
> 
> To put the shoe on the other foot, why is it so important in your mind to affix the label of racism? I happen to think what he did went way beyond racism...into terrorism.
> 
> ...


Post of the week award.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeffreyD said:


> Yes, unfortunately it usually is good folks that get the shaft. If he's convicted (I'm sure he will be as he confessed) I would be honored to flip his switch!!
> 
> But, how did we get to this point? Schools suck, schools want kids on anti depressants, infrastructure sucks, foreign relations suck, medical care now sucks (except for Nevada), 1% suck, rich white people suck, white people are the only privileged ones. Do you see a connection here?
> 
> Liberal policies. Guys like Larry Elder may be right when they say white folks are suppressing their true feelings, and if blacks continue to have the racist attitude they have currently, huge problems will be forthcoming. He may have a point. White people are now a minority here in California, time to turn the table!!!


We have eyes, but cannot see.

We have ears, but cannot hear.

We have hearts, but cannot feel.

We have brains, but cannot think.


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Just saw an earler friend of the shooter on tv, I do no know if he was Black, but assume he was because they interviewed him as if he is- he said shooter was never racist and cannot imagine that would ever be.His friends now,say the opposite.
Not trying to defend the shooter or say he is mental-but at the beginnings of a mental issue,say schizophrenia, a persons thinking can change totaly. They hear voices, they cannot seperate those voices from their consciousness . A chemical is lacking in their brain that inhibits the electrical connections. A voice, can come from the radio,trees,airplanes,sky, ect. and it drives them insane with repetive instructions,many times to kill -someone that has done them some slight/harm or to harm themselves. There does not have to be anything done to this person but it can be totaly perceived in their mind. This process can take place over years. It also can take years to find a proper drug to help them.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> Liberal policies.


Lets not whitewash history.

In America, It was _Conservative_ policies, that created the _divide_ between blacks (the ones in chains) and whites, _since day one_. They also fought tooth-and-nail, to keep it that way, at least up until the Civil rights Act, incidentally a Liberal policy.

Problem were here long before voters started electing Liberal mayors and legislators.

By then it was too late, as it still is today.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> One way to measure racism is the willingness to accept others. One thing you'll always find in black & white mixed race marriages is that they end up in the black community. That's because the black community is much better about accepting mixed marriages than the white community.


Black community. Wow. My neighborhood has about 60 houses, almost half are owned by black people. These houses are not cheap. Is this a black community?

Some are mixed race.

People live where they choose to live for many reason, they didn't "end up here". They chose to live here for many reasons. 

You take everything to its absurd conclusion.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Lets not whitewash history.
> 
> In America, It was _Conservative_ policies, that created the _divide_ between blacks (the ones in chains) and whites, _since day one_. They also fought tooth-and-nail, to keep it that way, at least up until the Civil rights Act, incidentally a Liberal policy.
> 
> ...


You are OH SO WRONG!


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> Lets not whitewash history.
> 
> In America, It was _Conservative_ policies, that created the _divide_ between blacks (the ones in chains) and whites, _since day one_. They also fought tooth-and-nail, to keep it that way, at least up until the Civil rights Act, incidentally a Liberal policy.
> 
> ...


Huh?


All Leftists are liars, because there is nothing good in Leftist philosophy, it's very foundations, and the history of the Left, when it rules, supports the evil inherent in it, when you total the millions deaths under it's rulers like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. Only it's natural ally, Islam, rivals Leftism for the number of deaths at their hands. SirWilham.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> Lets not whitewash history.
> 
> In America, It was _Conservative_ policies, that created the _divide_ between blacks (the ones in chains) and whites, _since day one_. They also fought tooth-and-nail, to keep it that way, at least up until the Civil rights Act, incidentally a Liberal policy.
> 
> ...


I agree. We should be honest and not whitewash history.

From: http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/15/CultureAndSocialPathology


Any economist worth his salt will tell you that if something is taxed, expect less of it. If something is subsidized, expect more of it. Taxpayers have been forced to subsidize slovenly behavior. 

The statistical evidence proves it. According to the 1938 Encyclopaedia of the Social Sciences, that year 11 percent of black children and 3 percent of white children were born to unwed mothers. Today 72 percent of black children and 30 percent of white children are born to unwed mothers.










Who waged war on poverty?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

7thswan said:


> Huh?
> 
> 
> All Leftists are liars, because there is nothing good in Leftist philosophy, it's very foundations, and the history of the Left, when it rules, supports the evil inherent in it, when you total the millions deaths under it's rulers like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. Only it's natural ally, Islam, rivals Leftism for the number of deaths at their hands. SirWilham.


HUH? Is this what the majority of conservatives think? Or is it just a horrible extreme conservative thing?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> Lets not whitewash history.
> 
> In America, It was _Conservative_ policies, that created the _divide_ between blacks (the ones in chains) and whites, _since day one_. They also fought tooth-and-nail, to keep it that way, at least up until the Civil rights Act, incidentally a Liberal policy.
> 
> ...


You're gonna confuse _everybody_ now, if you use the real definitions of "conservative" (conserve the present power) and "liberal" (liberate from control of power).
That doesn't fit with what the PTB want everyone to believe. After all, if we could agree on that, most of the infighting would be over and we could concentrate on the REAL enemy.......government itself.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Lets not whitewash history.
> 
> In America, It was _Conservative_ policies, that created the _divide_ between blacks (the ones in chains) and whites, _since day one_. They also fought tooth-and-nail, to keep it that way, at least up until the Civil rights Act, incidentally a Liberal policy.
> 
> ...



Yes, let's NOT whitewash history! And I might add, LBJ was NOT keen on the civil rights bill. He was one of our more racist POTUS. 

&#8226;	The 13th Amendment to abolish slavery was voted for by 100% of the
Republicans in congress and by 23% of the Democrats in congress.

&#8226;	Not one Democrat either in the House or the Senate voted for the
14th amendment declaring that former slaves were full citizens of
the state in which they lived and were therefore entitled to all the
rights and privileges of any other citizen in that state.

&#8226;	Not a single one of the 56 Democrats in Congress voted for the
15th amendment that granted explicit voting rights to black Americans.

&#8226;	In 1866 Democrats formed the Ku Klux Klan to pave the way for Democrats to regain control in the elections.

One of the founders of the Republican party was U.S. Senator Charles Sumner. 
In 1856, Sumner gave a two day long speech in the U.S. Senate against slavery. 
Following that speech, Democratic Representative Preston Brooks from South Carolina came from the House, across the Rotunda of the Capitol, and over to the Senate where he literally clubbed down Sumner on the floor of the Senate, knocked him unconscious, and beat him almost to death. According to the sources of that day, many Democrats thought that Sumner&#8217;s clubbing was deserved, and it even amused them. 

What happened to Democrat Preston Brooks following his vicious attack on Sumner? 

He was proclaimed a southern hero and easily re-elected to Congress.

It is worth noting that for over a century and a half, Democrats often have taken a position that some human life is disposable &#8211; as they did in the Dred Scott decision. 
In that instance, a black individual was not a life, it was property; and an individual could do with his property as he wished. Today, Democrats have largely taken that same position on unborn human life &#8211; 
that an unborn human is disposable property to do with as one wishes.

http://frederickdouglassrepublican.com/did-you-know/


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada, maybe you should just make it a point never to travel anywhere in the South since you don't like it here. We, in South Carolina and Georgia have our share of tourism every year. We have 2 of the most beautiful cities in the United States, Charleston and Savannah. We do extend our hospitality to all who visit and most people appreciate the beauty, the history, and the food plus all the hospitality that goes with it.

They are not looking for things to criticize. They love the ambience of the great seafood, the Soul Cooking, the barbeque and our islands and beaches plus all the walking tours of our beautiful cities.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Jun 20, 3:09 AM EDT
*

Man accused of church killings spoke of attacking college* 
By MITCH WEISS and MICHAEL BIESECKER 
Associated Press

-video- at link 







COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) -- A black drinking buddy of the white man accused of killing nine people at a Charleston church says the suspect told him a week earlier that he planned to shoot up a college campus in the city.
The friend, Christon Scriven, told The Associated Press on Friday that he thought Dylann Roof's statements were just drunken bluster. Still, Scriven said he was concerned enough that he and another friend, Joey Meek, went out to Roof's car and retrieved his .45-caliber handgun, hiding it in an air-conditioning vent of a mobile home until they all sobered up.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...06-20-03-09-22



Why, oh, why didn't these kids tell someone?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> HUH? Is this what the majority of conservatives think? Or is it just a horrible extreme conservative thing?


The left brought us such things as slavery, the KKK, and Obamacare.
Republicans abolished slavery, gave women the right to vote, passed civil rights, etc.
Now the democrats, being the liars they are, are trying to say it was them all along.
It's a matter of record, a matter of history.
Liberals steal from the rich and poor alike


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> The left brought us such things as slavery, the KKK, and Obamacare.
> Republicans abolished slavery, gave women the right to vote, passed civil rights, etc.
> Now the democrats, being the liars they are, are trying to say it was them all along.
> It's a matter of record, a matter of history.
> Liberals steal from the rich and poor alike


While you are correct in literal terms, you assume readers are ignorant of our political history. I think HT members are smarter than that.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> HUH? Is this what the majority of conservatives think? Or is it just a horrible extreme conservative thing?


The truth is hard to take for some folks. If you don't think it's true, prove your point!


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> While you are correct in literal terms, you assume readers are ignorant of our political history. I think HT members are smarter than that.


Some prove your wrong everyday!


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> You are OH SO WRONG!


Ok, please explain. I'm all ears.

And please, let's not regurgitate the whole "southern Democrat" nonsense.


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Yes, let's NOT whitewash history! And I might add, LBJ was NOT keen on the civil rights bill. He was one of our more racist POTUS.
> 
> â¢ The 13th Amendment to abolish slavery was voted for by 100% of the
> Republicans in congress and by 23% of the Democrats in congress.
> ...


I did not say one word about Democrats, or Republicans - for obvious reason.

I was talking about Conservatives and Liberals, during the time frame frames you have outlined.
*
We need to stop whitewashing Conservative history.*

George Wallace was a Democrat. Who considers him Liberal


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

7thswan said:


> Huh?
> 
> 
> All Leftists are liars, because there is nothing good in Leftist philosophy, it's very foundations, and the history of the Left, when it rules, supports the evil inherent in it, when you total the millions deaths under it's rulers like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. Only it's natural ally, Islam, rivals Leftism for the number of deaths at their hands. SirWilham.


Maybe a few _white lies_ are coming from the Right themselves, stating that that slave trade, segregation and housing discrimination, were products of the Liberals.


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

HDRider said:


> I agree. We should be honest and not whitewash history.
> 
> From: http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/15/CultureAndSocialPathology
> 
> ...


You have some good points, but they have absolutely nothing to do with mine.

Lyndon Johnson? I was not aware that he was a Conservative.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

How sad. Daily mail has an article up about the shooter's sister reporting to police his identity from a surveillance video.

Then, she was supposed to be married this weekend, and it's now been called off.

And, the media has tons of pictures up from Facebook and some wedding announcement web-sites of her and fiance and his children and all kinds of details of their lives.

This is why I'm so paranoid of my family putting anything online that pictures or otherwise that could be hunted down by others.

The internet isn't all bad, but I pity people who go viral unintentionally these days. We like genealogy, and I'm even concerned about what will be left digitally for our descendants to find.

I don't know if these people were part of this tragedy or not. I kind of doubt it if she turned her brother in. The extra layer of all this becoming "google-able" about her is sad.

Privacy is gone.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> I did not say one word about Democrats, or Republicans - for obvious reason.
> 
> I was talking about Conservatives and Liberals, during the time frame frames you have outlined.
> *
> ...


Me, in the strictest sense of the word.
He hated central control of the federal government and wanted local people to make their own decisions.
He DID have conservative views on social matters, such as segregation, but truthfully that was for show, in order to get votes, his personal feelings were another matter.
I think he still holds the record for the highest percentage of black votes in Alabama.


Oh, but don't just take MY word for it, listen to what a black man who knew him said......
(Ain't history fun?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=George_Wallace


In 1952, he became the Circuit Judge of the Third Judicial Circuit in Alabama. Here he became known as "the fighting little judge," a nod to his past boxing association.[14] He gained a reputation for fairness regardless of the race of the plaintiff. As J.L. Chestnut, a black lawyer, recalled, "Judge George Wallace was the most liberal judge that I had ever practiced law in front of. He was the first judge in Alabama to call me 'Mister' in a courtroom."[14][note 1]


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> He hated central control of the federal government and wanted local people to make their own decisions.


What George Wallace hated was federal law and constitutional findings that gave blacks rights. When George Wallage said that we don't need the federal government telling "us" how to live, he was using "dog whistle" politics. Wallace's REAL message was that southerners didn't want northern liberals (i.e., yankees) telling them that they had to accept and live with integration.

Although Wallace didn't do well in presidential politics, Richard Nixon noticed that northerners who didn't get Wallace's segregation message kind of liked the idea of the federal government staying out of their business. That gave Nixon the highly successful "southern strategy", where he catered to southern democrats on segregation, while at the same time catering to northerners on smaller government. He had to be careful with the exact language he used, to not appear racist to northerners, but he pulled it off. Smaller government became a mainstay in conservative politics after that, and they have George Wallage to thank.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Democrats have been 'progressive liberals' since at least Woodrow Wilson, another really racist POTUS.
This is great if anyone thinks "Rs" were not conservative and/or that conservatives were the racists. How odd. 
So, NV, Nixon was racist? Just your opinion? B/c betcha I can find lots of links to LBJ's racism.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I hate the idea of that this thread is now being sucked into the routine personal politics as if a personal opinion on that worn out path is really meaningful.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> So, NV, Nixon was racist?


Nixon was bigoted in a lot of ways, but I don't think he was racist. Nixon was an opportunist. He knew what he was offering southern democrats, and why, but that wasn't as important as the votes he hoped to gain. Nixon wasn't above catering to racists to get their votes.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

where I want to said:


> I hate the idea of that this thread is now being sucked into the routine personal politics as if a personal opinion on that worn out path is really meaningful.


People have short attention spans, and in a couple of weeks few will be discussing this very much at all.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Democrats have been 'progressive liberals' since at least Woodrow Wilson, another really racist POTUS.
> This is great if anyone thinks "Rs" were not conservative and/or that conservatives were the racists. How odd.
> So, NV, Nixon was racist? Just your opinion? B/c betcha I can find lots of links to LBJ's racism.


LOL Got wikipedia?



> From around 1850 until the end of Reconstruction, Radical Republicans led the Republican Party. They supported the abolition of slavery and equal rights for freed blacks, and also pushed for the Reconstruction acts and reduced rights for ex-Confederates. They opposed both Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson's Reconstruction strategy, and almost led to Johnson's removal from the Presidency. After Reconstruction, many Radicals joined the Stalwarts, which supported machine politics and opposed civil service reform. They supported Ulysses S. Grant, especially when he tried for a third term in 1880. The Stalwart faction broke up during the 1880s. The "Half-Breeds" were the opposing faction. Although the Stalwarts and Half-Breeds agreed on many issues, they fought over corruption issues and the role of patronage. The Half-Breeds supported civil service reform and a merit system. Like the Stalwarts, the Half-Breed faction vanished during the 1880s.[13]


Here is when they started to change.



> Starting in the 1930s the terms "liberal" and "conservative" were mainly used to refer to supporters and opponents of the New Deal. Most Republicans were opposed to the New Deal, but many, especially in the Northeast, agreed with its essential ideas. However, these liberal Republicans were frustrated with the corruption and inefficiency of certain New Deal programs, and said the GOP could do a better job of running these programs. By the 1960s liberal Republicans were often called Rockefeller Republicans. Hostile conservatives sometimes called them "Republican In Name Only," or "RINo


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_in_the_Republican_Party_(United_States)#Conservatives

LOL, Richard Nixon a racist?

Ever heard of the _Nixon tapes_? they're a real hoot. Nixon loved other groups. 

*Nixon*: â_A majority of people in Colorado voted for abortion, I think a majority of people in Michigan are for abortion, I think in both cases, well, certainly in Michigan they will vote for it because they think that whatâs going to be aborted generally are the *little black bas******_.â


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

where I want to said:


> I hate the idea of that this thread is now being sucked into the routine personal politics as if a personal opinion on that worn out path is really meaningful.


I think the argument happening here is very representative of what's happening at large in our society.

To me, I really think most people with an alignment with either the democrats or Republicans are frustrated with their own parties.

But, I don't think the people will ever force a reckoning on the government until more of us can let go of our hatred of "the other party" and clearly see they are both one half of the same face. If that can happen, we'll realize we need to stop arguing about who is the bad guy, called them both villains, cause they are, and maybe have an actual shot at slaying the two headed dragon.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Very true.
Then of course you have those that drag out misinformation on people like Nixon and Wallace. They have no idea what they're talking about, but because they heard it somewhere in the past and never verified it, it's still ok to drag it back out of the dirt pile and use it again.
I try to get my info as close to the source as I can, not always possible, but I try.
That's why reading biographies and autobiographies will give you a different view than what you saw on channel #? last night.
If you REALLY want to learn something about former Presidents and others, try THAT. What you thought you knew and what is truth can be a long way apart.

But back on topic, most all of us have some kind of "racist" opinions, whether we admit it or not. But it isn't so much what you FEEL, it's what ACTIONS you take. In this case, it was pure evil.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Anyone find the shooters manifesto online yet?


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> Very true.
> Then of course you have those that drag out misinformation on people like Nixon and Wallace. They have no idea what they're talking about, but because they heard it somewhere in the past and never verified it, it's still ok to drag it back out of the dirt pile and use it again.
> I try to get my info as close to the source as I can, not always possible, but I try.
> That's why reading biographies and autobiographies will give you a different view than what you saw on channel #? last night.
> ...



Did you read the Nixon quote in post #228?:shrug:


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Wanda said:


> Did you read the Nixon quote in post #228?:shrug:


Yes I did.
I knew about it long before it was posted, which is why I was decrying the ignorance of another poster who thought Wallace was a racist, but Nixon really wasn't. (post #226) Listen to the Nixon tapes to get a feel for what the man was really like.
I've read biographies on many Presidents. I met George Wallace, and talked to people in downtown Montgomery who knew him personally. His biography was quite insightful on what really went on behind the scenes during the 60's and LBJ's administration.
I just wish others would do more than parrot what the media wants them to say.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Never use today's lens to judge history. Judge history with a lens commensurate to the times you are studying.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Better still, use BOTH.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes I did.
> I knew about it long before it was posted, which is why I was decrying the ignorance of another poster who thought Wallace was a racist, but Nixon really wasn't. (post #226) Listen to the Nixon tapes to get a feel for what the man was really like.
> I've read biographies on many Presidents. I met George Wallace, and talked to people in downtown Montgomery who knew him personally. His biography was quite insightful on what really went on behind the scenes during the 60's and LBJ's administration.
> I just wish others would do more than parrot what the media wants them to say.


 People can use all of the ''weasel words'' they like to justify there opinion. I prefer to take it at face value when a racist remark is made and not look for a way to ''justify'' it ,or find a context it will fit into.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes I did.
> I knew about it long before it was posted, which is why I was decrying the ignorance of another poster who thought Wallace was a racist, but Nixon really wasn't. (post #226) Listen to the Nixon tapes to get a feel for what the man was really like.
> I've read biographies on many Presidents. I met George Wallace, and talked to people in downtown Montgomery who knew him personally. His biography was quite insightful on what really went on behind the scenes during the 60's and LBJ's administration.
> I just wish others would do more than parrot what the media wants them to say.


George Wallace sealed his fate when he personally stood in front of the University of Alabama to prevent two black students from registering. JFK called out the national guard, who ordered Wallace to step aside. The black students registered.

Americans never forgot Wallace's "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door", as it became known. He tried to walk the incident back during his presidential runs, claiming that he was only carrying out the wishes of the people of Alabama, but Americans wouldn't have it.

Below, Wallace and General Henry Graham exchange salutes before the general ordered Wallace to step aside, on presidential orders.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Privacy is gone.


There is no privacy on the internet so complaining about it seems silly
If one wants privacy they keep things to themselves, and offline


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Wanda said:


> People can use all of the ''weasel words'' they like to justify there opinion. I prefer to take it at face value when a racist remark is made and not look for a way to ''justify'' it ,or find a context it will fit into.



???
I'm not sure who you're directing that to.......

Nixon indeed made a racist remark, no context or justification needed and I agree.
So, again, if you agree Nevada didn't know what he was talking about, we're 2 for two.




Nevada said:


> George Wallace sealed his fate when he personally stood in front of the University of Alabama to prevent two black students from registering. JFK called out the national guard, who ordered Wallace to step aside. The black students registered.
> 
> Americans never forgot Wallace's "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door", as it became known. He tried to walk the incident back during his presidential runs, claiming that he was only carrying out the wishes of the people of Alabama, but Americans wouldn't have it.
> 
> Below, Wallace and General Henry Graham exchange salutes before the general ordered Wallace to step aside, on presidential orders.



All true, what would you expect me to say?
I never denied his racist remarks or actions, my original reply was to plowjockey who asked, "Who would call Wallace a liberal?" to which I provided a most appropriate response.....

Now, a question for you.

Know anything about JFK or LBJ's views on the civil rights events from the 60's?
Care to share?
:kiss:


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There is no privacy on the internet so complaining about it seems silly
> If one wants privacy they keep things to themselves, and offline


That's a great point. Perhaps business and govt could take that advice?

Cause in the past when my identity, health records, banking, school records, etc was done through paper mail and through in person contact I was I guess afforded the right to expect it to remain private 

Then, there's all that pesky national and local security stuff that's all over the digital world.

So thanks for being willing to actually type the honest truth about what we're all expected to accept now as far as online privacy. I guess some of us are slower than others in letting go of our silly old fashioned notions


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Know anything about JFK or LBJ's views on the civil rights events from the 60's?


I guess I knew what everyone else knew. I was in high school during those years. I was somewhat politically aware.

Of course, huge progress was made under both JFK & LBJ. No surprise with JFK. Progress wasn't as fast under JFK as some of us would have liked, but JFK knew the political realities of change. A lot of us were surprised at the civil rights & voting acts under LBJ. We considered LBJ to be a pretty strict southern democrat who wouldn't be quick to enact those things.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Wanda said:


> People can use all of the ''weasel words'' they like to justify there opinion. I prefer to take it at face value when a racist remark is made and not look for a way to ''justify'' it ,or find a context it will fit into.


Then Abraham Lincoln would be one of our most famous racists...


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Jolly said:


> Then Abraham Lincoln would be one of our most famous racists...


He was also a war criminal.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Williams, an African-American man, said that, even as the city pulls together to denounce the shooting, he was not confident church life would change much. Even when black and white churches are just a stone's throw from one another, "they don't ever intermingle. It's just the way it is," Williams said.

"One hundred and fifty years of this has led to the number one reason people today say why they worship in racially separate congregations: they just feel more comfortable with the worship and practices, and they know people there," Emerson said. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...south-carolina-churches-idUSKBN0P10WC20150621


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> George Wallace sealed his fate when he personally stood in front of the University of Alabama to prevent two black students from registering. JFK called out the national guard, who ordered Wallace to step aside. The black students registered.
> 
> Americans never forgot Wallace's "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door", as it became known. He tried to walk the incident back during his presidential runs, claiming that he was only carrying out the wishes of the people of Alabama, but Americans wouldn't have it.
> 
> Below, Wallace and General Henry Graham exchange salutes before the general ordered Wallace to step aside, on presidential orders.


Wait! I thought you said America's racist? There you said Americans wouldn't have it...so what is it? We were far more racist back then, or more folks were, than now.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Wait! I thought you said America's racist?


No, what I said was that most people I ran into in South Carolina thought segregation was the natural order of things. I don't know how you mistook that for saying America's racist.

George Wallace selling himself in the south is a very different thing from selling himself up north. People up north saw photos of Wallace blocking the entrance to the school and never forgot. Wallace didn't deserve to be shot for his political views, but he also didn't deserve to be president. He was selective about who the constitution applies to. We can't have that.

For any northerners who forgot what Wallace stood for, we were all reminded in the film Forrest Gump.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

No, he didn't selectively apply the constitution, his judicial record is evidence of that fact.
But that's why I asked you earlier how much you knew about the men you described.
You would do well to read this and ask yourself, "Do I deny a man the right to admit a mistake and ask forgiveness?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/sept98/wallace090591.htm

The sentiment in that article above is the one that is still misunderstood about Southerners.
We have funny ways, we're looked upon as backwards, but we don't go around hating people.
We're taught to admit our mistakes promptly and try to make amends. If you try talking to us and ask us to change, we're likely to listen and take it to heart.
But, if you try sending troops down here to *make* us do something, you're not gonna find a big welcoming committee.
Never have, never will.
I'd try that first approach I suggested.
It works wonders.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> No, what I said was that most people I ran into in South Carolina thought segregation was the natural order of things.
> 
> 
> What year did you meet people in South Carolina and where did you meet them? How long did you know them and how well did you know them?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> No, what I said was that *most people I ran into in South Carolina thought segregation was the natural order *of things. I don't know how you mistook that for saying America's racist.
> 
> George Wallace selling himself in the south is a very different thing from selling himself up north. People up north saw photos of Wallace blocking the entrance to the school and never forgot. Wallace didn't deserve to be shot for his political views, but he also didn't deserve to be president. He was selective about who the constitution applies to. We can't have that.
> 
> For any northerners who forgot what Wallace stood for, we were all reminded in the film Forrest Gump.


My guess is you found what you were looking for in your scientific sample of one.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

And my guess is that thru it all NV, you never realized its the Ds who were/are racist-overall.


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