# Started lgd pup or young pup??



## Joy Bell Farm (Jul 30, 2013)

Here is my setup. I have only 2 and a half acres the half is my yard which i let the goats have. Next spring i plan to get chickens I will buy the dog after i get chickens. And have 3 kids that are always out in the yard with the goats ages 5 to 9.
Im really torn to what is best. I really think a started dog is best but worry the kids would be unsafe with a older dog. I want her socialized as our setup there is no way to have a untamed dog around. I would like her to guard the goats, chickens and human kids. A started 6 months or old pup would not bound as well to kids i dont think. But i found someone 2 hrs from me that starts them and sells them 6 months to a yr. Im willing to pay for a well started pup. She says she will start them how i want she has grand kids and can socialize her.Even bring them in the house if i want them as a part house dog. But she believes all dogs need a pack to learn from.
I worry pulling a young dog from a pack and putting it in with my setup would be hard for her. And letting a pup grow up to my ways and kids would be much better. So for all u who have ever had the chance to get a started dog what have u thought o them?


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

For only one acre I would seriously consider if you really need a LGD, these dogs have been bred to free roam thousands acres. Now of course there are always exceptions but most LGD's are not going to be happy on one acre. These dogs are notorious barkers, so if you have close neighbors then that could pose some issues for you. Also they are notorious diggers, fence climbers and escape artists in general, especially on small acreage. You will need a dog proof fence and for one acre, a dog proof fence is also going to keep out most predators. Keep in mind these dogs are free thinkers and are not going to be the most obedient dogs either. Luckily as adults they are pretty low energy. I am a fan of building secure pens and shelters first then thinking about adding a dog. Since it sounds like this dog will more of a pet then an LGD I would probably recommend the puppy. Either way could work if you invest the time and keep up on the supervision and training. At 6 months old the dog is a teen and those are the ones who usually kill chickens. If it was me though is get the dog before the chickens, age is on your side with chickens. Young dogs are generally to rough on poultry and kill them.


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## Joy Bell Farm (Jul 30, 2013)

I want chickens and there is something that comes and always picks them of no matter if there locked up or not they seem to find a way in. So before i get chickens again i want a backup protection. So something does not haul of a baby goat. I live in the country and know the dogs bark that is on the job description. Next door is a male pyr locked in a half acre with his male goat. He has been there all summer so i dont see why i cant have 1 on 2 acres. This pen is right next to my house and the dog barks all night. They where never considerate of me so i dont think i need to worry about there thoughts of me getting a lgd. Fences will be worked on but the 2 acres is my dads and half the yr it goes back to him as a bull pen so its hard to modify it to good as that bull destroys everything i do to keep my goats in.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

It sounds like you need something to guard the house and yard rather than specifically to guard the goats and chickens. Consider also that the constant barking of the neighbor's dog has not been enough to keep whatever is killing your chickens from killing your chickens.

First, you need to know what is killing them. Raccoons hunt at night and typically will come by every three days. If, however, the raccoon is real close to your yard, he may kill chickens sooner. If it is a fox, they will be out in the afternoon. Set up a have-a-heart type trap using chicken as bait and see what you get. Could even be a bobcat. Once you know what is going after your chickens, you'll know what you need. You may need a dog that hunts and kills rather than one that barks. 

Just because your neighbor keeps a Great Pry on a half acre means that it will work for you. Great Prys are known to roam, but other LGDs do not.


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## Joy Bell Farm (Jul 30, 2013)

I did think of getting a farm collie but i worried they would herd to much as they will live with the goats in the goat barn. And have accesses to the animals 24 hrs a day. I was thinking of a Anatolian mix what other lgd breed are u thinking of Maura? Its been about 2 yrs since my last chickens where here. The chickens at first went into there small coop but something kept getting in at night it was a poorly made coop but i thought good. Then they moved to roast at night in the goat barn in the rafters. I thought they would be safe as they where 8 to 9 ft of the ground and it was a metal barn so no climbing. But nope there was always 1 gone by morning and that was the last of my chickens as i gave the last away for free. There was always a trail of feathers leading out of the barn to where it ate them in the field. I sat on the porch threw out the night for 3 to 4 nights and never seen anything but a possom run threw the yard.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I guess the biggest question would be, do you want it as a part time house dog or not? From your first post it sounded like you did, now it sounds like it will be outside 24/7. If its going to be outside I say go with the started dog as long as its been with goats.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

We have had Pyrs and Akbash on less than 2 acres for over 12 years with few problems. Yes, good fences are a must or your Pyr will become a Dis-a-Pyr. I think contentment is a factor for these dogs when they consider leaving or staying. We have always had at least two; dogs are pack creatures and they usually do best in pairs even in smaller areas. We have also found that LGDs with another LGD playmate are easier to deter from puppy-chasing of livestock because they have a natural outlet for their puppy energy.

I would choose the started pup because, frankly, small children can teach a younger pup a ton of bad habits. Since you also want the dog to be civilized, I would take him to obedience school to instill some basic manners. We have done so with all our small acreage dogs and it has proven to be most valuable for handling them easily. It has not caused any problems with their guarding abilities.

Anita Crafton
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
Hansen, Idaho


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## Joy Bell Farm (Jul 30, 2013)

Nope not a house dog but will be in the yard with the goats where the kids will be. I have a house dog. I just want the lgd to be well socialized. My yard is the kids play area and the barn yard lol. My bucks are in the front yard the does have the back and a small pasture behind. Do what u have to when u want animals and not lots of land. I dont mind if the dog hangs with us all day but i need her on duty at night when we are sleeping to be sure nothing comes in trying to get at my animals. She will be living with the goats 24 hrs a day. But can come say hi anytime she wants during the day.
Thank you Antia hearing your stories makes me think its possible to have a lgd. It seems to be a 50 50 split on raising these dogs. And ive got it 2 ways lol. Most people i talk to say u throw the dog in the pasture and never socialize and it has to have over 100 acres others like u say socialization is ok and small acres is fine. My goats double as pets so i spend almost half the day with them as does my family and so a unsocialized dog would not be happy in this setup. Guess my dog will be the out of the box type lol. The lady thats willing to train the pup says she has dogs thats happy in her kids pen which is like a 1/4 an acre and she would pick a pup that prefers to be in there rather then out roaming for me.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Joy Bell, I'm not real clear on your set up. You have a yard you keep goats in; yet you say a bull is placed in the area at times and it destroys fencing you use for goats. So will you clarify that? Is your 2 acres strictly yours to use or is part of it used by the one with the bull?

Not all LGD are barkers and not all LGD need a lot of acreage. That is why a newbie to LGD gets confused in attempts to choose one. Also, every single pup in all liters have their own unique personality; and if gotten young, that personality can be formed to an extent.

Let me share my experience as I recently purchased my first pureblood LGD. My homestead consists only of a little over 6 acres. It is completely fenced with internal fencing as well. Our closest neighbor has 2 large dogs that bark frequently and live within 30 ft of one of our boundary lines. Our predators are rather small compared to some, i.e. foxes, *****, possoms, even badgers and some flyers I cannot name. We also have black rat snakes that will get our very young fowl. Now that is our basic set up. Since I'm up in years I can no longer make a mad dash when something disturbs the tranquility around here; and since I've always had dogs for "personal" protection, I figured an LGD would be suitable for the goats and fowl. 

The LGD I chose is of a breed known for its quiet mannerisms as well as its assertive protective propensities. We looked at three females from the same litter; and chose the one that showed signs of being curious & alert without wanting to hide. At the young age of 8 weeks she literally barked once, then lowered her head and growled. That to me showed a bit of fearlessness. David made a little jump toward her with his hands over his head and bringing them down quickly; and this pup's response was to jump back, then jump forward on both little front feet, bark and growl. David changed his demeanor to one of acceptance and this little pup was friendly. This is the one we brought home. (I have a running saga about her in this forum.)

Now, since you have 2 children (along with the goats and soon to be fowl) you want your LGD to guard, that LGD will need to see all those as its "charges". That is easily done on a small piece of land......as long as you get a breed that will be content with a small piece of land. (Ours has been content so far.) I believe such contentment is developed by the way that pup is treated. If your children (and all adults around) can provide a safe place for that pup to explore your place, play and enjoy its new world and is permitted its own personal space to develop at its own pace, many LGD pups can grow well and develop into the guardian you are wanting. However, if your children and the adults around do not know how to respect an LGD's need to think for itself, you may be asking for problems.

You might want to consider another type of dog. One that will be content to stay outside. It would not necessarily have to be an LGD. There are many good guard dogs that can do what you are wanting that would not be the challenge an LGD would be. (My favorite dog for your situation use to be a short-haired German Shepherd. Of course, I've fallen in love with my little Karakachan; so either would work for my little 6 acres.)

A little aside here and strictly a personal preference: I would never but never let anyone else train a pup intended to come to my home.


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## Joy Bell Farm (Jul 30, 2013)

Sorry i guess im bad at explaining my setup . Guess that's why im not a writer lol. The half acre is my yard the 2 acres is my dads and for the winter months the bull gets put in it and i lock the goats of from the field and they live in my yard. Then i get it back come spring. The field is right behind my house. I cant let the goats run with the bull as the bull has access to my dads holding area and there is a lot of gates and paneling in there thats a good 2 ft of the ground. And he does not want me fixing anything in there. So the goats would get out in the rd our where ever they wanted to go. The other breed im looking at is called the farm dog or English shepherd. From talking with breeders some have a very low chase drive and want to just guard there animals. But i would fill safer have a lgd as they have no desire to kill or herd.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Please know that an LGD will not automatically guard chickens. You have to break them to birds. And, as mentioned before, you will need strong fences to keep an LGD home. 2 acres is small potatoes for them and they will adopt more property.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

The best thing for chicken killers is trapping them. It can be rats, weasels, mink, ****, possums, house cats, dogs, fox, coyotes...it's a long list. Some of them come in underground or over roofs. I've had zero luck with dogs protecting chickens.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Joy Bell, do not retain the illusion that LGD dogs do not kill what they are suppose to be guarding. A young pup that has had no training may harm the young while it learns to play. These dogs need some training (either by their working parents or by their owners). Just yesterday my wonderful little Karakachan grabbed a week old guinea keet, chomped once and swallowed it. This Karakachan is 6 months old and has been living with all the fowl since it was 8 weeks old. Yet this is the first time she has been around the tiny fowl. (Cujo, my lab, who does indeed have a prey drive has caught baby rabbits, squirrels, morning doves, etc....whatever he can. He never harms our grown animals nor bothers the new-born goats. But he sould not hesitate to eat baby chickens. He and Valentina both lunged for that keet. Valentina got there first.) Still the mother guinea has her keets following her all over the acreage with Valentina knowing they are together. When Valentina starts nosing around the keets, the mother (and male partner guinea) flaps her wings and chases Valentina away; so it is another learning experience for my young pup. (That little keet was unfortunate in that it was not anywhere near its mother at the time.)

So, whatever guard dog you get, even an LGD, will need some training.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I have 2 karakachan pup's 6 & 8 months old & they think my guinnea's & ducks are squeaky toys no matter what I say or do. So here my LGD' do not protect my fowl, only the goats.
They do know my barn cats & don't harm them but they Do Not let anything in their pastures with their goats that isn't supposed to be in there as far as they are concerned.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

First: the answer to your question: a young pup. But you will need to take it to puppy class (we are doing this with our GP/anatolian cross pup) for socialization. I know alot of the LGD people leave the dog out with the goats.period. and the dog becomes wary of people all people-- your kids included-- which is not what you are wanting-- besides -- having a socialized pup will not impede your dogs LGD-ing abilities.
(Akbash btw, is a somewhat conterversal subset of the Anatolian shepherd dog)...
Our setup is a bit similar- 2 acres, but we have a flock of free range Jersey Giants (thought they would be a harder target for the perdators) and an open coop-- no losses in a year -- we also have a bunch cats out hunting vermin--
we used our family pets for the guarding--they naturally stepped into the role-- our Bernese Mt dog stays up half the night --he likes the coolness at night--so he sleeps up on our back porch and at the least sound of anything stirring he launches himself up and out he can be at our back fence in a minute and his bark is pretty booming. The giant schnauzer is alerted by him and she is the one who actually likes killing things (we had to train her not to kill the chickens, she still kills anything that isnt "ours")...
It was nice to start off with a very low prey drive breed like the Berner though, he just doesnt have any desire to chase or hunt, but he is intensely territorial (which if you read up on them, they were homestead guardians as one of their duties).
We got the LGDmix pup with an eye towards goats and are incorporating him into our pack -- I figure, if he can learn to leave the chickens alone that is a good start (I have been correcting his play behavior with the hens, and so has the Rooster-- a Jersey Giant Roo is definitely not to be messed with)...
Goats will be a another project that is for sure-- anyways I went on too long sorry!
But am reading your thread with interest...
PS we have a 10 year old child that does all the kid-things, and our dogs are very kid-seasoned which is nice.


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