# the laser can't help you if you don't have trigger control!



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the laser can't help you if you don't have trigger control! BUT it can point out what your doing wrong very quickly.

had a shooter yesterday , was really struggling get hits steel he had a laser and you could see him put the laser on the target then just before the shot broke , the laser would jump off the target to the left or down and to the left.

making it apparent he wasn't making a smooth pull strait back.

there is help for him , but there seems to be a shooter mentality it will be so easy all I have to do is put the red dot on the target and pull. 

It is selling a bunch of laser grips , laser guide rods , and other lasers mounted to guns but I don't think it is really helping the shooters.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Quite right sir. We had the same problem at the PD. When I had shooters doing quals, the shot worse when they had a laser. It tactical training, they often would miss the target. There is a tendency to forget the basics and rely on toys. No different than those that rely on gps and can't read a map.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I find some of the lasers in the grip , if your finger is where it should be on the draw , along the frame parallel to the barrel your blocking the laser so you either have to be doing something else with your finger that could easily fall into bad technique. or the laser you paid extra for doesn't do anything till you move your finger to the trigger. if the hole point is sights on target before moving to the trigger your back into bad technique.


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## Ellendra (Jul 31, 2013)

I noticed that when I took my mom to a gun range for the first time. My CC gun has a laser, because at the time I was mute, and I figured the little red dot would be the loudest warning I could give. But when I shot, I used the iron sights. The laser was there for my attacker's benefit, not mine. 

When Mom shot, she held the gun way too low, right in front of her sternum, and relied on the laser sight. That meant her posture was all wrong, her aim was shaky, and when the gun kicked it hurt worse. Which made her flinch on all her subsequent shots.

The lessons I had tried to give before we started apparently went nowhere. And being mute, I couldn't tell her how to correct her posture until after we got back home.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ellendra said:


> The laser was there for my attacker's benefit, not mine.


The attacker will only see a bright light on your gun, if they see it at all.
In low light situations it can give away your position.
If you are pointing the gun at them, it's past time for any "warnings" and time to be shooting.


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## Ellendra (Jul 31, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If you are pointing the gun at them, it's past time for any "warnings" and time to be shooting.


Probably. But I could argue in court that I had tried.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ellendra said:


> Probably. But I could argue in court that I had tried.


If shooting is justified there's no obligation to issue any warnings.
If there is a real, imminent threat any "warning" is just giving them more time to harm you.



Ellendra said:


> When Mom shot, she held the gun way too low, right in front of her sternum, and relied on the laser sight.


That's actually a position some instructors teach for use when the threat is so close that extending the arms would risk losing control of the gun. 

Holding the arms bent with the elbows tight against the body on either side makes it more steady.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

A laser is an alternative to sights, nothing more or less.

As Bear pointed out, there are shooting positions where one can't see the sights, and one should practice shooting from those positions. Another example is car-jacking defense. There is no way you'd be able to achieve sight picture, and a laser allows you to do a little better than "feel" where your weapon is pointed- a valuable option if you're being car jacked at a busy intersection or parking lot.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

There are times when it could be useful , but as a crutch to bad trigger control it doesn't do what people think it will.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> but as a crutch to bad trigger control it doesn't do what people think it will.


It's really got nothing to do with trigger control, but if it shows you what is happening it can be helpful in correcting the problems.

They are at their best in low light conditions when it's hard to see the sights.
This is the part where someone usually says:
"If it's too dark to see the sights, it's too dark to see the target"

Reality is there are lots of scenarios where one can see a target will enough to identify and aim, but still too dark to rapidly and clearly see the sights.

One example would be an intruder in my hallway that would be well lit by a night light and me in my totally dark bedroom where they couldn't see me and I couldn't see my sights.
(If they weren't night sights)


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

when you watch some one put the laser on the target they hold it steady on the target for a second and then as they are pulling the trigger it swirls and jumps off the target just before the trigger breaks , it is about trigger control and the laser is not helping you to hit the target.

I am not against lasers , I feel some are constructed in a way that they are not as useful as one that isn't blocked by your index finger when you draw.

what I am saying is they are a sight but like any other sight that can't help you if you can't break the shot without pulling the sight off the target.
but they will show what your doing if your watching it

however some feel it will fix all their shooting issues , I think they sell a lot of lasers to people who want this buy a fix and it will not make up for bad trigger skills


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> it is about trigger control and the laser is not helping you to hit the target.


They aren't going to overcome bad form, but a little training can fix that.
If you're jerking the trigger it doesn't matter what type of sights you use.

Even with perfect trigger control, you still need accurate sights.
The system has to work as a whole, and that includes the shooter.



GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> however some feel it will fix all their shooting issues


I haven't noticed that.

Most of the laser sights I've sold were to people who were serious about learning how to shoot. I see more of them now on AR type rifles than handguns.

It would take atrocious trigger control to totally miss a standard silhouette target at typical self defense distances.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> There are times when it could be useful , but as a crutch to bad trigger control it doesn't do what people think it will.


I'm not sure I understand how it could be a crutch. A laser is just an alternate sighting system. If a shooter can't maintain picture through pull with a laser, they can't do it with irons either. 

If anything, a laser is an advantage in that it will allow bystanders to help ID the problem for the shooter with trigger control problems.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

what I am saying is that I am seeing people who think because they can't shoot with irons , that a laser will fix their problem , but they don't really test it to find out if they can shoot they think well all I have to do is put the dot and pull 

but not so , you still have to have the trigger control to not pull off target.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's really got nothing to do with trigger control, but if it shows you what is happening it can be helpful in correcting the problems.
> 
> They are at their best in low light conditions when it's hard to see the sights.
> This is the part where someone usually says:
> ...


Just how - long is your hallway? Over 25 yards? You shouldn't need to use sights in your scenario. That is instinct shooting, point and fire, same thing. Practice. Depending on a little light is really compromising yourself.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

krackin said:


> Just how - long is your hallway? Over 25 yards?
> *You shouldn't need to use sights in your scenario*.


You need to use the sights for all shots that are more than a few feet away.
There's no need for guesswork when you can use precision.
Even for "point shooting" you should at least be able to see the front sight.

One hallway is about 25 yards, since I can see from the front door to within about 5 feet of the back door, but most shots would likely be much closer.

This side view gives an idea of the size of the house:


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Trigger control is everything.
I have a young nephew with a butt kicking accurate rifle and poor trigger control. 
He can't hit poop.
Been working on him, but I don't think it sunk in yet.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> Trigger control is everything.
> I have a young nephew with a butt kicking accurate rifle and poor trigger control.
> He can't hit poop.
> Been working on him, but I don't think it sunk in yet.



dry fire helps a lot when they can see the sights move without recoil , it has to be them.

a drill for this is to shoot each target 5 times , the first 4 dry fire , get steady , get sight picture , then control the breathing and Squeeze strait back with the center of the pad of the index finger. it may very well take all afternoon to shoot a box of 20 because your really making a hundred shots and they should be on 20 different targets so you can see the errors and read each target .

these are a good target to use it is 5 1 inch squares 
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index...u51&action=dlattach;topic=9833.0;attach=12561
remember to shift your body and re align on each square finding natural point of aim , so that when you look down or close your eyes and take a breath then open your eyes your looking back at the square your shooting and not another then trying to muscle the shot in.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the order I see lasers in for accessories is down the list a ways

the gun
minimum of 3 mags - stuffing 1 or two mags at the range is a waste of training time and you don't get good reload training without a 3rd mag

a quality holster - if it is a carry gun - better to have a ok gun and a good holster than a great gun and a garbage holster

a hand held white light - I think everyone carrying should have a good white flashlight that is 150-300 lumen and simple to operate and a mounted light second further down the list , the independent light is a great tool with a lot more uses than just identifying a target.
Back when I managed an outdoor weekend music festival I was turning the ground over to the security guard that we hired from a local security company, I slept on site but I got little enough sleep for the weekend , he was unarmed security probably not making very much but he showed me something , he said his job as an unarmed security guard is all about avoiding contact. so when he would see head lights coming down the 1/2 mile drive way into the venue he would flash his head lights on for a few seconds then off , most of the time the car turned around almost immediately. the only cars that didn't had business there.

night sights -

mounted white light - unless it is a dedicated HD gun or HD long gun then a mounted white light moves up the list
witht he options to now get something like a StreamLight TLR-4 and many paces are now making a holster for popular guns and this light laser combo it adds a laser for very little additional cost and it can be turned on or off as you like.

laser - without light as an alternate aiming device for those really awkward positions to shoot from where you can't use the sights but are farther from the target say outside 8 feet
if it is in your budget cool but I think most new shooters will benefit a lot more from 500 rounds of additional practice ammo and a training course than than they will from the purchase of a laser. it also relies on batteries and would benefit from the option to turn it on only when you want and not every time you grab the gun .

this is my opinion , if you think that a laser should be farther up the list I would like to understand why.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> Trigger control is everything.
> I have a young nephew with a butt kicking accurate rifle and poor trigger control.
> He can't hit poop.
> Been working on him, but I don't think it sunk in yet.


Take him shooting and only load one round at a time.
YOU load the rifle without him watching.
When he pulls the trigger on an empty chamber you both will find out how bad he's flinching.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> A laser is an alternative to sights, nothing more or less.
> 
> As Bear pointed out, there are shooting positions where one can't see the sights, and one should practice shooting from those positions. Another example is car-jacking defense. There is no way you'd be able to achieve sight picture, and a laser allows you to do a little better than "feel" where your weapon is pointed- a valuable option if you're being car jacked at a busy intersection or parking lot.


My wife likes her Laser if a Fire Fight comes.

Me the other day found if instead of thinking what I do and take my time, if I just fire I had better Groups. Strange!

big rockpile


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