# walter jefferies in the news



## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

250 loose pigs plague vermont town

Ag secretary threatens to call in feds to end great pig escape

Farmers fines now exceed $90,000

Apparently the pigs have been out repeatedly, and while they're out they do all the things that
pigs do - they root, they eat things, and they've reportedly been all over the road. 

It's interesting because Walter has repeatedly said his pigs don't root. There's also a picture
of what appears to be a castrated boar from his herd in some of the video footage. He's touted no castration in the past. Wonder if he's changed his practices? 

I guess "pastured pork" means the neighbors properties, too


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I heard everyone in VT is having ham for Xmas.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I can't understand why anyone would attack WJ


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

From one of your links

ORANGE, Vt. (WCAX) It appears progress is being made corralling runaway pigs in Central Vermont.

According to pig farmer Walter Jeffries, about 99 percent of his pigs are now back at the Sugar Mountain Farm in West Topsham.

We caught up with him Friday afternoon luring two pigs from a neighbor's property where there was visible damage to the lawn.

Dozens of pigs have been roaming Riddle Pond Road for the past three weeks after escaping from their pens.

Walter Jeffries: Somebody sabotaged my fences on purpose. They are trying to hurt my farm. I've been dealing with this for nine months.
Reporter Adam Sullivan: You know who it is?
Walter Jeffries: Yeah, I know who it is.
Adam Sullivan: But you don't want to say?
Walter Jeffries: Until they are arrested by police, I'm not going to say their name.

Police have been to the farm several times over the last couple of weeks.

Jeffries is offering a reward for any information that leads to an arrest.

Meanwhile, town fines delivered to Jeffries continue to add up. They now total close to $90,000.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

WJ has worked long and hard to create something really good. I don't know why anyone here would look to diminish that.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

I would of been filling my freezer


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I can't understand why anyone would attack WJ


I can think of a few reasons, but other's opinions may vary.


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

HDRider said:


> WJ has worked long and hard to create something really good. I don't know why anyone here would look to diminish that.


I don't think that the state of vermont, the vermont state police, the town of orange, vermont or the neighbor they interviewed on video are attacking walter. they just want him to keep his pigs on his property. 

this apparently happened last year, too; the neighbor says that in the interview.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

HDRider said:


> WJ has worked long and hard to create something really good. I don't know why anyone here would look to diminish that.


WJ left our pig forum because another pig farmer came on the forum. They have been having a few words with each other for years.

Another pig farmer raised wild hogs. I think he had a lot of problem with his state government over his hogs. Don't know how that one turned out.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Just one note here from my personal experience. I contributed to his Kickstarter at a level that would have netted me some pork products. I haven't heard from them in years. No pork has arrived.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Just one note here from my personal experience. I contributed to his Kickstarter at a level that would have netted me some pork products. I haven't heard from them in years. No pork has arrived.


Are you talking about the wild pig farmer. I had a few talks with him a few years back. He made out ok i think on problem with the state. I think he wrote a book and did receive a lot of money from people to help pay for lost of business. To bad these pig farmers had problem with their businesses. I have had a few pigs get out at times but most times they cane back by the next day. Lost 4 Sows one year that got up to a main country road. Some young men shot them and used them for meat. I told them to enjoy my Pork. Now one of them is working for me. 

I dry age all my Pork and Beef that i sell. Most is aged for 30 days. Some other long term aging cost a bit more depending on time aged. In the old days before elec. we aged by using salt and smoke in the smoke house for a long time. Aged enough for all year use for food on our farm. 
I do not age any Chicken. Sell most of them live as fryers. Good profet in all meats if aged right and have good customers. I never have enough dryed beef. Getting to old now to raise a lot of animals.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

101pigs said:


> Are you talking about the wild pig farmer.


I believe she's talking about Walter (Highlander)

THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT BY ME.
THIS IS POSTED AS EVIDENCE ONLY:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sugarmtnfarm/building-a-butcher-shop-on-sugarmountainfarm

@Alice In TX/MO, did you at least get a T-shirt? 
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...utcher-shop-on-sugarmountainfarm/posts/226244


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Just one note here from my personal experience. I contributed to his Kickstarter at a level that would have netted me some pork products. I haven't heard from them in years. No pork has arrived.


Have you contacted him to ask about your pork?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No, I haven’t contacted him recently. I asked once before, and he said they had to fill local orders first. 

It’s ok. 

I learned from similar experiences to avoid Kickstarter.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Have you contacted him to ask about your pork?


If he was truly interested in ethics you wouldn't need to contact him.

Did you ever read his blog?


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Highlands and I tangled on here a few years ago for various reasons. When I visited back here one time and saw he was a mod, I never came back, until today, when I read about his mess on Facebook.

I never believed the tales he told we're all true and I'll just leave it at that.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> If he was truly interested in ethics you wouldn't need to contact him.
> 
> Did you ever read his blog?


I haven't.

Maybe I see what I want to see, but I always thought he was a stand-up guy. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, thinking he might have lost some of the details of his funders.


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

HDRider said:


> Have you contacted him to ask about your pork?


The people who contacted walter regarding their promised rewards for kickstarter are pretty much a very unhappy bunch. given that the promised ship date is now more than 6 years ago, can you blame them? 

kickstarter banned me when I asked about my backing and asked walter to keep everyone appraised as to his current ship date. 

you can read the comment stream here - most recent comments at the top


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Just one note here from my personal experience. I contributed to his Kickstarter at a level that would have netted me some pork products. I haven't heard from them in years. No pork has arrived.


I also backed walters butchershop project.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I can't understand why anyone would attack WJ


I can. He twisted the truth, misled people and used his power as a moderator to silence those that tried to expose his lies.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I didn't know


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

What I know for a fact is he tried to tell people all over the country what to do based on his small local experience. This included recommending things to plant in semi arid parts of Texas that he claims to plant in Vermont.

I can't say what he claims these days but he also used to claim he only fed hay and whey to his pigs along with whatever they could forage.

And lastly, I know from personal experience, if you called him out, you were better off doing it in public so everyone could see. I tried it thru PMs and he went crying to the mods ( before he was one ) saying I was cussing and threatening him when he was the one calling me names. The mod contacted me and threatened to boot me. When I asked what about him, I was again told I would be booted.

He has a cult following in the pastured pig pages on Facebook. I have him blocked so I don't see his b.s. but I see his name mentioned there often followed by the hero worship nonsense.

The very sad truth is, the hobby folks that are newbies fall for his rhetoric. The people that know better, well, those folks and an wj usually don't get along very well.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Just a point on “pastured” pork. I know another producer here in central Texas. It hasn’t rained here in SIX WEEKS. Nothing is growing in the pastures. 

Those piggies get restaurant scraps, outdated grocery store food, etc. I am friends with a former employee, so it’s inside info. 

Their pork is delicious, but if pastured means totally pastured, that isn’t happening.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Just a point on “pastured” pork. I know another producer here in central Texas. It hasn’t rained here in SIX WEEKS. Nothing is growing in the pastures.
> 
> Those piggies get restaurant scraps, outdated grocery store food, etc. I am friends with a former employee, so it’s inside info.
> 
> Their pork is delicious, but if pastured means totally pastured, that isn’t happening.


I asked about " pastured " on the pastured pig page on Facebook. A few claim to bring the pasture to the pigs by feeding fodder they grow. I can kind of see that.

Here, I call my pigs pastured because they live in 1/4 to 1/2 acre traps and get rotated around. But, right now with nothing growing, they are on full feed. All last fall and into spring, they had turnips, oats, rye grass and crimson clover to graze to their heart's content.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> He twisted the truth, misled people and used his power as a moderator to silence those that tried to expose his lies.


That sounds about right to me, based on my own observations.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> but if pastured means totally pastured, that isn’t happening.


That is where Highland and I locked horns. I think it's wonderful if you have enough land to let your pigs roam and not turn the land into moonscape. I think it is a good idea to let pigs nibble grass. I have seen lush green pastures, densely planted with alfalfa. I can imagine pigs enjoying a series of rotated paddocks continuously replanted to garden vegetables and grains. 

But I've had livestock long enough to know hogs will mow through that vegetation in a flash. Their relatively small stomach and caloric needs prevent hay and pasture from making up much of their nutritional needs. Pastured pork with ample additions of cooked eggs, bakery waste, brewers spent grains, cheese plant waste, garden waste and ground corn were fed to Highland's pigs. OK, that's sort of pastured pork. But before you start guiding others to pasture pigs, you'll need to admit the scope of those inputs, you need to be clear that they aren't raised on grass. 

When you feed oats or corn, but brag that your pigs don't get any commercial hog feed, that is, IMHO, intentionally misleading. To claim your soil has the perfect balance of minerals is preposterous. 

I imagine many people that seek out this HT site have little experience. Often without that experience the nutritional needs of livestock are under estimated. I picture in my mind, an overgrown pasture, poor to moderate fertility, in need of redevelopment. A few goats, calves, sheep or pigs will eat that down to the dirt in short order. Following Walters model will leave you either starving your pigs or spending un-budgeted money on commercial hog feed.

But when your business model depends on setting your product apart from the commonly available product, admitting that their diet is mostly non-pasture nutrients, threatens the model. Calling pork "pastured pork" due mostly to the location, not the diet, isn't enough to garner the wildly higher prices on might wish for.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Just one note here from my personal experience. I contributed to his Kickstarter at a level that would have netted me some pork products. I haven't heard from them in years. No pork has arrived.


Perhaps there are one or two on their way now. It will take a while, however, given the distance.


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

My sole complaint about his operation was that he talk about what he actually did. Every time I drilled down on one of his claims it turned out to be a lie, in my opinion. 

like when i offered him $10,000 cash to raise pigs on pasture alone. He called me every name in the book, but at the end of the day, couldn't do it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

About 2 minutes into the NEWS video, what is that building? Barn? House? Compound?


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

the building the state guy is standing in front of with the canvas sides and stainless equipment in thebackground? no idea, but could be a dairy barn. the footage where the two guys are trying to herd
the barrow was taken on the road in front of walters farm. the driveway up to his butcher shop area.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

haypoint said:


> That is where Highland and I locked horns. I think it's wonderful if you have enough land to let your pigs roam and not turn the land into moonscape. I think it is a good idea to let pigs nibble grass. I have seen lush green pastures, densely planted with alfalfa. I can imagine pigs enjoying a series of rotated paddocks continuously replanted to garden vegetables and grains.
> 
> But I've had livestock long enough to know hogs will mow through that vegetation in a flash. Their relatively small stomach and caloric needs prevent hay and pasture from making up much of their nutritional needs. Pastured pork with ample additions of cooked eggs, bakery waste, brewers spent grains, cheese plant waste, garden waste and ground corn were fed to Highland's pigs. OK, that's sort of pastured pork. But before you start guiding others to pasture pigs, you'll need to admit the scope of those inputs, you need to be clear that they aren't raised on grass.
> 
> ...


But he told the world he only fed hay and whey.

And that was my issue. When I called him out on it it got ugly.

And for what it's worth, I call my pigs pastured also, but I'm quick to point out that means they are not in small pens. Usually 1/2 acre paddocks


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bruce King said:


> the building the state guy is standing in front of with the canvas sides and stainless equipment in thebackground? no idea, but could be a dairy barn. the footage where the two guys are trying to herd
> the barrow was taken on the road in front of walters farm. the driveway up to his butcher shop area.


First video, 53 seconds into the news report. Behind the Van.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Slip form building.


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

haypoint said:


> First video, 53 seconds into the news report. Behind the Van.


That's his butcher shop building. under the forms and stuff apparently is a concrete shell. Why he hasn't removed the construction forms is beyond me. it's been more than 5 years since the last pour. 

when i do concrete I usually pull the forms the same day, or certainly within a day or two, or they get stuck hard to the concrete and get hard to remove.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Somehow refreshing to see that the person that was a known lair and abusive towards me is viewed the same way by others on HT, his neighbors and the community he lives in. His exit from HT was like cutting a rotten spot off an apple, to preserve the rest of the apple.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

and now he's chasing his pigs down the road and trying to pull them off of his neighbor's butcher's tables.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I never knew there was so much animosity toward the guy 

It sounds like his neighbors feel the same way as some of you guys


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You might want to open the can of worms that is the permaculture dude, Paul Wheaton.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You might want to open the can of worms that is the permaculture dude, Paul Wheaton.


Never heard of him

What about Joel Salatin? Is he for real?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Salatin is a real person. The jury is out on whether anyone can duplicate what he accomplished. I am selling a nice house and property to a family that tried. Heart and soul. Good neighbors. They are still on the property, but the Salatin dream wasn't successful.

Wheaton used to post here, too.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

This hyped up see what I can do crap was popular for awhile.
It seemed to peak the interest of young potential farmers. It had a little run and now is starting to wain in my area.
Reality eventually sets in and you realize it still involves money,knowledge and work.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You might want to open the can of worms that is the permaculture dude, Paul Wheaton


He's worse than Highlander.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> Wheaton used to post here, too.


More like "spam here".
His posts mainly had links back to his own site.
He'd pop in every six months or so and revive old threads so he could drop the links.


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## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

SRSLADE said:


> Reality eventually sets in and you realize it still involves money,knowledge and work.


And Walter has the knowledge of how to make other peoples money work for him.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think that is what all three of them have done. Have a great idea and then promote the peewaddle out of it. After a while, the income from the actual enterprise doesn't matter. They are making more on books and lecture tours than on pigs, chickens, and rocket stoves.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Salatin is a real person. The jury is out on whether anyone can duplicate what he accomplished.


Nah....anyone can do it as long as you can get enough free labor from 'interns' 


And I think he figured out quite some time back there was way more easy money in books, tours and promotion of his deal than actually raising chickens. Lot of people revere him as a god of agriculture.....personally, I think he is a promoter first, and a farmer second....or third....or so.....


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think he inherited the land, which is fine, but most folks don’t have that blessing.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TnAndy said:


> Nah....anyone can do it as long as you can get enough free labor from 'interns'


Exactly. 50 years ago, Helen and Scott Nearing were telling the world how to grow your own food. Vegetarians. They wrote several books and did many speaking tours.

Many followers showed up at their home to see their gardens and way of life. They escorted them in, put them to work in the garden. At noon, they'd provide some vegetable soup/broth, put them back to work and then send them away. Its easier to be food independent if you have a group of unpaid laborers stopping by. 

Salatin is another.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I feel bubbles bursting. 

Dang it.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Exactly. 50 years ago, Helen and Scott Nearing were telling the world how to grow your own food. Vegetarians. They wrote several books and did many speaking tours.
> 
> Many followers showed up at their home to see their gardens and way of life. They escorted them in, put them to work in the garden. At noon, they'd provide some vegetable soup/broth, put them back to work and then send them away. Its easier to be food independent if you have a group of unpaid laborers stopping by.
> 
> Salatin is another.


They had a bunk house just for the free labor.
I spent many days across many years at that property.
They never really mentioned that local farmers had been building walls and running subsistence farms long before the world had heard of Scott nearing.
They had a flair for monetizing themselves much like the farming self help gurus of today.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> Nah....anyone can do it as long as you can get enough free labor from 'interns'
> 
> 
> And I think he figured out quite some time back there was way more easy money in books, tours and promotion of his deal than actually raising chickens. Lot of people revere him as a god of agriculture.....personally, I think he is a promoter first, and a farmer second....or third....or so.....


Like Tom tricks a bunch of boys into thinking that work – the thing that he _doesn't_ want to do – is fun, so that he can spend the afternoon goofing off. He even get the boys to pay _him_ for the "privilege" of painting.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> They had a flair for monetizing themselves much like the farming self help gurus of today.


As I was taught at a young age, it isn't the product that sells but the salesman.
And I am ok with that, just be upfront and honest about it.
It doesn't do their audience any good to show lush pastures, fat livestock, photo quality produce, nice equipment and clean buildings if they are using these late night no money down get rich tomorrow in real estate methods.
Not every super secret method these guys push is universal nor worthy of investment.
Lead people to believe homestead utopia is an absolute result from your books, videos etc and many of those same people are getting out of the lifestyle a few years later, frustrated and broke.

Here is a guy from Kentucky, retired college professor, suffers from some debilitating physical issues.
His youtube channel doesn't get a whole lot of traffic and his videos are bare bones and basic. He lost most of his garden over the summer due to his health, yet I still find him interesting and informative.

Guys like Joel Salatin might present a sexier, more magical image to homesteading, but the small time diyr like this, I believe, do new homesteaders a great service showing the grit and reality of rural self sufficiency.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nice. Neighborly.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I've long contended that a good mechanic that's a poor businessman will go broke, while a poor mechanic that's a good businessman will prosper. Same for gardening.

45 years ago, bitten by the "back to the land" bug, I grew a 3 acre vegetable garden. I got free manure bu shoveling out the neighbor's horse barn. I used my van to pull the steel wheeled manure spreader. My irrigation system was several 10 foot step ladders and lawn sprinklers. Long hours cultivating with a hoe.My garden was a success. 

But I expected the people I worked with at a factory would clamor for my wholesome vegetables. But they didn't. I expected grocery stores or roadside markets to buy my produce, but they were already locked into produce wholesalers.

My garden was a success, my marketing a failure. Hundreds of Sugar Baby watermelons, smashed as chicken feed. Bushels of sweet corn thrown to the pigs. Heads of lettuce and cabage fed to the rabbits. 

So, I respect those that can promote their products. It is a skill I've never mastered. But due to that respect, I also despise those that use lies and deception to promote their product. I reserve a special place of disdain for those that lead others into their imaginary processes.

I think it is evil to use meaningless words that give a false belief. "Pasture Raised", but feedlot finished id deception. "Hormone free" chicken is deception, since there are no added hormones in any chicken. GMO-free vegetables is deceptive. Since there are no GMO-vegetables. 
"Pasture raised pork, never fed commercial feed" but fed a variety of whole grains with their cheese waste, garden waste, bakery waste, brewery waste, is deceptive. 

When Michigan government put a stop to farmers raising Wild boars, one guy refused, garnered sympathy by claiming they were after his heritage breed Magilousa hogs. He denied the hogs were escaping, while standing next to hog tracks outside his fences. Like Walter, he got lots of donations from across the nation.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> This hyped up see what I can do crap was popular for awhile.
> It seemed to peak the interest of young potential farmers. It had a little run and now is starting to wain in my area.
> Reality eventually sets in and you realize it still involves money,knowledge and work.


Fueled by these self proclaimed experts, I've seen many folks jump into the homesteading lifestyle. I've heard them complain about how cold the community was to them. But we've seen them come and seen them go. Hard to get attached when you know that in a couple seasons, they'll see the reality and return to their previous life.
The imagined lifestyle of a hundred years ago is not reality. It is a select few people in a select few locations that can make it work. But they don't have time to write how too books or hang out on the internet beating their chests.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

I don't know how many of you are on Facebook but, there are numerous pages for " homesteading " , self sufficiency, pasture raised everything, vegetable farmers, and all else.

Interns are a thing with the bigger of these. They talk about the chance to learn this, that and the other, for a place to stay, meals with the owner or food boxes for them to cook for themselves.

And they seem to keep interns coming in on a regular basis.

Another common theme is a lot of there folks raise a bunch of stock, have it processed for resale, and it sits in their freezers , with them just selling a little here and there then complaining and asking for suggestions. No pre arranged market makes for failures.

The CSA folks try to figure out why customers do not want a bag of chicken feet or pig fat ( with instructions on rendering included ) in the high priced meat boxes.

$24 for a pasture raised broiler, $1800 plus for a side of grass raised beef weighing approximately 350# before processing. Non gmo pasture raised pigs for $4.50 to $8 a pound , scalded and scraped, head and hide on.

Or $8 to $10 a dozen for non gmo pasture eggs, but, they don't understand why people don't just jump on their product.

I saw a guy the other day claim $18 for a half gallon of raw milk was reasonable. I don't argue, usually don't even comment. Just watch and learn.

More and more every day get online and say they just can't do it anymore and are having to go back to a day job.

I have 7 acres, and on it I have a big garden, orchard, raise a bunch of pigs ( that are pre sold ) but I don't try to make a living here. It's all supplemental income. And I'm phasing out the pigs even tho I make about 60% profit on them , my biggest order is once a year ( average of $15k )and he wants them as big as I can get them, meaning I have to spend my 60% through out the year on feed so I really never see the money.

It's a tough way to make a living on just a few acres and the romance of it doesn't seem to pay the bills.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

We tried the supplemental income thing a while after my wife retired, but in the end, we finally decided that using the farm to raise for just us made the most sense....so we rarely buy much food except what we don't produce, all our heat come from our woods, and so on. 

The BEST supplement we've done has nothing to do with agriculture, but pays around 1500/yr, which covers the property taxes....and that is rental of space on a light tower I built to a local wireless internet provider....we not only get that income, but we pay nothing for our own connection (included by contract), which saves us 50/mo we used to pay for DSL from the phone company....so the tower is really worth a couple grand/yr.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

When you are raising your own food, livestock, supplying your own heat and water, etc, you are still making a living.
Remember that thing about not how much you spend but how much you keep.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

As Ben Franklin said: "A penny saved is a penny earned".....and given our current tax structure, it's more like 1:2 ratio now.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> We tried the supplemental income thing a while after my wife retired, but in the end, we finally decided that using the farm to raise for just us made the most sense....so we rarely buy much food except what we don't produce, all our heat come from our woods, and so on.
> 
> The BEST supplement we've done has nothing to do with agriculture, but pays around 1500/yr, which covers the property taxes....and that is rental of space on a light tower I built to a local wireless internet provider....we not only get that income, but we pay nothing for our own connection (included by contract), which saves us 50/mo we used to pay for DSL from the phone company....so the tower is really worth a couple grand/yr.


We had big dreams of having and abundant garden and selling produce and eggs out of our barn. 

A couple years later and I'm realizing I can barely guarentee I'll have enough food dor my family let alone selling to people. 

Also do i really want rando's stopping by my home? Not really

Im content to just give extra eggs and garden bounty with my co workers. 

I'll be just trying to grow enough for the year for us ans buy as little as possible at the store. And finding local alternatives. 

Before my son was born I wanted to strive towards 100% self sufficiency. But the reality is now that will never truly be possilble with his health issues. 

Thats ok. I do what i can.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

BobbyB said:


> It's a tough way to make a living on just a few acres and the romance of it doesn't seem to pay the bills.


https://www.mthopeauction.com/sites/default/files/market_reports/9-27-19.pdf
Here are honest, real world prices for produce.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

My wife is a teacher and she had a bunch of teacher friends wanting produce this year. So I planted extra and for a while it was going good. Charging farmers market prices and she took it to school for pick up and they were all happy.

Then school let out and they all went their own way for the summer. The saving grace was by then the heat was building and production was talking like bricks. 

After some discussion we've decided to just plant for us. If we have more than we can eat or can, we'll either give it away or sell it, depending on who is getting it.

So many of those folks on FB talk about having to work 12-14 hours a day 7 days a week. I grew up farming. That's not always necessary. But that's theirs to bear. I'm getting too old for it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

When my father in law finally decided he could no longer grow his enormous garden, I think everyone that knew him was disappointed, except for him.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Good fences make good neighbors. Also not being a total jerk to your neighbors so that they clandestinely sabotage your fences is good too.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Have they confirmed a neighbor was the one who scattered Mr. Jeffries pork?
I assumed up until now he was just blaming others for his misfortune.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Have seen a lot of people go down the Joel Salatin rabbit hole. He lives not far from here. They plan their business models and try to sell in an area where most people that want home grown food are already growing it themselves, supplemented by harvesting wild protein sources, and couldn't afford specialty prices. They also fail to factor in the huge blow to profit margins when you have to supply your own labor instead of relying on interns, and there are no huge speaking fees to take up the slack.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ch for your produceOften we seek the remote locations for peace and quiet and lower cost land for our "homestead". But when marketing our products, we need a large population of folks without access to naturally grown products. Best if they are educated and have high incomes, too. 

When there is a roadside market along every highway, spaced 2 or 3 miles apart, a farmers market and custom slaughterhouse in each village, you can't depend on getting much for your products.

I'm reminded of a very profitable roadside market from 50 years ago. A guy rented a 2 acre lot on a busy street in Lansing Michigan. He pitched a big camping tent and was highly visible cultivating his 2 acre garden. Tens of thousands of people were able to watch the garden grow. Finally, he began erecting signs of what was available to buy. People flocked to him. All day long he sold tomatoes, sweet corn, watermelons, etc. Then, late at night, each night, he refilled his tent with cases of vegetables he bought from a vegetable wholesaler. He sold 100 times more produce than his 2 acres could have ever produced. But he got premium prices from customers happy to be "buying local". 

A local family operated slaughter facility sells some great tasting hams, bacon, sausage and pork products. People love to buy local. the closest livestock auction is 80 miles away. Every beef farmer takes their cattle there. But they return home empty. So, the local slaughter facility tells the truckers that if any hogs sell below a certain price to buy them a few. Of course people think they are buying local, but no telling where these hogs came from. Most local hog growers couldn't afford to sell their pork at auction prices. The local slaughter facility can compete with the grocery stores, so everyone is happy.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Local farmer's market here opens in April, when the only local thing ready to harvest is maybe lettuce and a few cole crops....but there will be tomatoes, corn, watermelon, etc.....all from Florida or Mexico.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/U...ound-up-rest-of-pigs-in-Orange-560025771.html


https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Escaped-pigs-back-in-their-pens-561464761.html


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

haypoint said:


> ch for your produceOften we seek the remote locations for peace and quiet and lower cost land for our "homestead". But when marketing our products, we need a large population of folks without access to naturally grown products. Best if they are educated and have high incomes, too.
> 
> When there is a roadside market along every highway, spaced 2 or 3 miles apart, a farmers market and custom slaughterhouse in each village, you can't depend on getting much for your products.
> 
> ...


The reality is, that if you are close enough to town to not cut your profit margin with the commute to farmers markets, your property taxes would cut into your profit margin. So there basically is no profit margin, if you value your time. Driving an hour each way to a farmer's market in town and setting there all day to sell produce means you better sell a lot. Hard to do the work needed to grow a lot when a significant portion of each weekend is burned marketing. It's a business model with no margin for expansion. Want to sell enough to have a larger profit cushion? Then you need to hire help. It starts at maybe break even and goes downhill from there, from a business economy standpoint. But fortunately for us, the people involved in most all food production have a poor understanding of business principles and even poorer math skills.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Bingo!


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Doesn't look like all is paradise on Sugar Mountain. That's a rawhide looking place he has considering the prices and numbers he liked to through around on here.

He left here because he refused to play by the rules.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

I wonder if the state will send him a bill for trapping his escapes ?


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

That seems like a lot of animals to have got out at one time, either some kind of human or animal interference pushing them out or they were seriously looking for something better to eat.


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## Bruce King (Jan 11, 2018)

Allen W said:


> That seems like a lot of animals to have got out at one time, either some kind of human or animal interference pushing them out or they were seriously looking for something better to eat.


Take a look at the video footage shot by the news stations; when they pan over the farm the ground is basically bare dirt and rocks; not much forage to be had there. Walter always talked about how his pigs don't root, but the first thing they apparently did was go over and root up his neighbors lawns. 

I think you're right; they saw green stuff on the other side of the fence, and just kept walking.


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## TamBerk (Aug 17, 2010)

Walter Jeffrey will definitely get a bill from the USDA wildlife services for setting up cameras and traps. They don’t work cheap.

What is the latest? Did he get all his pigs back? I think he was quoted saying that his pigs can’t go feral “wrong genetics “. I’m not sure if I can agree with that.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

TamBerk said:


> I think he was quoted saying that *his pigs can’t go feral* “wrong genetics “.


I don't think he knows the meaning of the word "feral".



> feral
> [ˈferəl, ˈfirəl]
> ADJECTIVE
> 
> (especially of an animal) in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication.


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## Tnff319 (May 28, 2012)

Bruce King said:


> Take a look at the video footage shot by the news stations; when they pan over the farm the ground is basically bare dirt and rocks; not much forage to be had there. Walter always talked about how his pigs don't root, but the first thing they apparently did was go over and root up his neighbors lawns.
> 
> I think you're right; they saw green stuff on the other side of the fence, and just kept walking.


Seems you can’t believe everything you read on the internet


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

3 people have been arrested in connection with burglary at sugar mt farm.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> 3 people have been arrested in connection with burglary at sugar mt farm


https://www.timesargus.com/news/loc...cle_55920760-dd1f-5b28-8458-b0a11f1a0e46.html


> Oct 12, 2019
> ORANGE – Police have arrested three people in connection with a burglary at Sugar Mountain Farm in August.
> 
> As a part of an ongoing investigation into the Aug. 23 incident, police said that Jennie Galway, 32, and Shawn Stevens, 34, both of Orange, and Robert Love, of Walden, were arrested and charged with burglary.
> ...


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

TamBerk said:


> Walter Jeffrey will definitely get a bill from the USDA wildlife services for setting up cameras and traps. They don’t work cheap.
> 
> What is the latest? Did he get all his pigs back? I think he was quoted saying that his pigs can’t go feral “wrong genetics “. I’m not sure if I can agree with that.



He has an answer for every thing . Said once he could train a feral hog to a hot wire, if he wasn't so far away I would have set him up with some so I could watch.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

And the saga continues...


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SRSLADE said:


> 3 people have been arrested in connection with burglary at sugar mt farm.


He has made a bit o money off this. More then if he sold the hogs. Plus a lot more money will be coming his way.


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## markt1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You might want to open the can of worms that is the permaculture dude, Paul Wheaton.


I just came to realize how much Paul's permies forum has fallen off the left cliff. I saw a post where the poster was chastized by staff for violating the rules by "stating the truth". When I called them out on it, my post was deleted. While there is unquestionably some valuable info there, I am cutting the string with that forum. I now suspect that many of the people there are actually just extremely liberal small garden types with no practical real world farming experience. Now that I have 50 acres to work with in WV, I hope to positively participate here with farming people who actually know their business.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

markt1 said:


> I just came to realize how much Paul's permies forum has fallen off the left cliff.


I figured something must have been going wrong when he showed up here again.
His pattern is to pop in every year or two, open some old threads, and post lots of links back to his own sites and videos.

He's been told repeatedly not to do that, but he plays the victim routine when anyone points it out.

https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/t...e-an-alternative-to-burning-fuel-wood.600796/



markt1 said:


> I now suspect that many of the people there are actually just extremely liberal small garden types with no practical real world farming experience.


One can sometimes find useful information on those sites, but it's mostly just things copied from other folks and can be found all over the internet at no cost.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

markt1 said:


> I now suspect that many of the people there are actually just extremely liberal small garden types with no practical real world farming experience. Now that I have 50 acres to work with in WV, I hope to positively participate here with farming people who actually know their business.


My grandfather believed that before you took advice from someone else on how to run a farm, check their hands.
Some are social justice nazis and keyboard oracles first and homestead/self sufficiency folks second, or third, etc. 
Paul didn't invent it; it is common from Facebook to HT.


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