# Continuation of 20 Ga vs. .410



## Lookin4GoodLife

I didn't want to veer off BlueRose's thread although it may be relevant to her search. I would like to ask more questions about shotguns without turning her thread into a mishmash. 

I've got my needs around a homestead pretty much covered except for one. DW and snakes. She is deathly afraid of snakes. I've explained to her that the vast majority of snakes are going to try to get away from you, not attack you, but she's not having it. She KNOWS she's going to encounter them when we get our homestead and I want her to be able to DEAL with them, not run from them. I doubt she'd be able to hit a snake with a pistol when she was in a state of panic so I'm thinking a nice, lightweight shotgun would do the trick. Either to carry it with her when we were out and about or at least have it at the ready when she's gardening or what-not. I think those little Rossi's and H&R's are cool, but I'd rather have a pump with more than one shot if I'm going to spend the money just for this task. I think the Judge's are pretty cool too, but don't know if she's got the hand strength to fire one of those. DW is only 4'9" and 100 pounds. I'm certainly not trying to sound sexist or lump all women of this size into any "group", but she can barely pick up one of my loaded 12 gauges much less control it and fire it. 

I haven't fired a .410 since I was a kid but I remember it doing a pretty good number on some empty freon cans at my uncle's shop. I've never fired a 20 ga. Most of what I've *read* says 20 gauges kick as hard as a 12 simply because they're lighter. Makes sense to me, but I don't know that to be true. I would have to agree with the ammo availability comment as I never saw .410 at Walmart during the shortage and very little online at a price I wanted to pay, but 20 ga was available the whole time during the shortage, even when they were out of 12. I would also be a bit concerned about the noise. Having to shoot a snake in a hurry gives you very little time to don goggles or hearing protection. I liked the comment about defending your chickens with a shotgun because I have thought about the possibility of blasting a bunch of stuff I don't intend to blast.

Would a 20 ga be painful to the ears with no protection just shooting 2 3/4â birdshot? I like the bantam and junior Mossberg and Remington pumps. That's kind of what I'm leaning towards. The .410's I've seen in those only hold 3 shells, but I've just started looking. Maybe I need to take her to the gun show and let her hold some of them. We have two LGS here, but neither of them have a range where you can try stuff. She's never fired any of my weapons, but she's open to it and wants to, we just haven't found the time yet. 

Anyway, y'all get the situation. I'd appreciate actual feedback, not speculation, because never firing a 20 ga and not firing a .410 for probably 40 years, I've got plenty of that bouncing around in my head.  Thanks!


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## Ozarks Tom

I haven't seen them around for a while, but there's a .410 single shot called "The Snake Charmer". Short stock, short barrel. Very handy little gun. 

A 20 gauge definitely does not kick like a 12 gauge. My wife has chalked up over a dozen armadillos this year with her 20 gauge, and bugs me to go spotlighting for them nearly every night.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

my son who bought his shotgun when he was 10 , 4', 9" tall and 110 pounds had no trouble with the 20ga mossberg pump and target loads this will be more than enough to mess up a snake 

the 870 20ga youth with the 21 inch barrel will do her well

20 has the versatility to do so much more than a 410 and shells are so much more available 20 dollar for 100 round target loads in 8 shot will chew up a snake 

this last weekend we were at a youth hunt / skills day , they warmed up on some clay pigeons and all the ammo was provided it was mostly federal target that my son looks at me after firing the first shot ans said i think they are using the weak stuff as he had very little recoil shooting his 20 ga pump

for even greater recoil reduction a 20ga semi auto will really soak up recoil 

yes 50 some kids walking around all day with their shot guns going from station to station , it was great he got a pheasant on his hunt 

any way he had no problem with the 20 nor did a lot of kid smaller than he 

some of the very small kids did use 410 one girl probably wasn't 65 pounds she used a 410 , also used a 28ga at the waterfowl station she was afraid of it but it really wasn't a problem when she shot it , most people are more afraid of recoil than it actually affects them, the thing is you need to "own" the gun , take charge position the body to take up the recoil , get your cheek on the wood , remember up to the cheek into the shoulder , that is how you mount a shot gun to shoot . all to often people try an leave a gap they are afraid of it and that is when the gun jumps and hits them in the jaw , a firm pull into the shoulder lean forward a bit let you body soak up the recoil as it moves 

but even with some of the horrible form leaning back gap between the cheek and the stock , a bunch of kids didn't hit much but none was sore or injured by the recoil 

a 20ga also really holds it's value if you buy a youth 20 and some light target rounds and she says it is just to much then you can sell it for nearly what you bought it for , here is the warning , you might like it so much that you find yourself borrowing it.

I know i have thought about buying myself a youth 20 more than once , shorter . easy handling , lighter , slimmer 


all that said you might want to take her to a trap range that rents or has loaner guns and have her try each and buy whatever she likes , as much as it may cost as illogical as it may be just get her what she wants it is easier in the long run


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## simi-steading

It's much easier to carry around a little 38 snubby with shotshells in it... Had mine in my back pocket the other day when I stumbled on a copperhead... 4 dead snakes.. (it was pregnant). You get a nice wide scatter. The only reason I carry that gun is for copperheads.. 

I hope you won't let her shoot just any snake.. there's a ton of good snakes you don't want to kill.. My wife wanted to kill them all, but she's understood now how good they are..

BTW, shot shells in a 38 aren't near as loud as a .410.. .


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

shooting anything 22lr or greater isn't easy on the ears but it the heat of it adrenaline going I have only once had my ears hurt , and lets just say the business end of a 12 ga was way to close to my head I was standing about 4 feet directly to the left of the muzzle of a 12ga firing a slug i could feel the pressure wave not ever a good place to be even with or in front of a muzzle 

get a set of the fold up muffs wear them any time you can keep them folded over the sling of the gun , yes put a sling on it , and when your in the heat of it whatever it is your unlikely to notice if you didn't have time to put them on


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## 1shotwade

Yo start with the"snake charmer" mentioned above is made by Charter Arms. It has the tenite plastic stock/forearm and the shortest legal barrel of I thing 16 or 18 inches. They are in 410 only I do believe.
Yes,410 ammo is more expensive.I haven't bought ammo in a long time but the last I can remember 12ga would be $5 and 410 would run you $9.That's a big difference but if you are only going to shoot a box a year it's not worth thinking about.
Now as for 20 ga. Yes,some will kick like a 12 ga. Most however do not.A 20 with an extremely tight choke that is a light weight gun can pop you a good one.,so be careful not to get her discouraged from the start.You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive so 'nuff said on that.
I am a 410 kind of guy! really a sweet little roound for me.With that said,yes they cost more for ammo and they have less power down range,they have less shot per shell.There's also a couple other things I've learned over the years about them.
To start with It is not a good gun for extremely cold weather if you are thinking pump or auto. The shells are just too small to get the gun loaded with winter gloves on.It's a real pain. for this reason I only take a "top break 410 out in the weather. The second thing is some of them can out kick a 12 ga. I bought an 1148 which is a spring action 410 made by remington.to chamber a round in it after firing the barrel is on a slide action and once you get used to these nice gas driven actions the old spring action , even in the little 410 just kicks like a mule!I bought this gun and after one cold day hunting with it I put it up for sale.
Hope this info helps some. Bottom line if if you get something she will enjoy shooting you will be far better of than any money you've saved in the deal.

Wade


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## simi-steading

Read this thread with pictures of patterns from .22 and .38 shot shells.. 

Seriously, carrying around a shotgun all the time is a real pain, and if you lay it down, after you see a snake, you have to go get it.. By that time good chance the snake is gone.. 

A small pistol is always there.. I shot my copperhead the other day from about 5 feet.. For the most part it split it in two.. The block of wood it was laying on was well peppered.. 

http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?t=204499


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

sell semi you sold me , buy a 230 dollar RIA M206 a holster and a pack of snake shot load 3x3 3 snake 3 solid rounds , done deal alwasy with you enough for snakes and if you have to shot one in the garage the 1/2 inch plywood onthe wall will soak up the shot and you will paint over it one day and no one will care 

if you shoot a snake say on you brick patio with a 20 expect to be replacing a brick or 2 

some where i heard that if you used a 12ga on snakes you didn't need to use shot , that almost literally confetti would carry more than enough energy to kill a snake at 7 feet

I might have to try that open up a shot shel and load it with rice then close it back up and shoot some card board if it went through 2 sheets cardboard i would be sold that it would do on snakes.


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## -justin-

its my opinion that .410 shotgun is useless for anything BUT snakes.. and even a stick will do you better, but if you have to have something close to you for that situation i wouldnt waste my time on a taurus judge, id just get a .410/.45LC 2-shot derringer.. but thats the ONLY think .410 will really be good for

a 20 gauge is going to be much more versatile though, its hands down the better choice for any multi purpose tool


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## Lookin4GoodLife

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> most people are more afraid of recoil than it actually affects them, the thing is you need to "own" the gun , take charge position the body to take up the recoil , get your cheek on the wood , remember up to the cheek into the shoulder , that is how you mount a shot gun to shoot .


I agree completely. We took my son's GF out a couple weeks ago and she had never shot a firearm before either. We started her out with a M&P22 and then went to the M&P9. She did great. Then we went to the 22 rifle, the AR, the AK, then the 12 ga with a 3" shell and the Mosin. She did great. She's taller than DW, but she only weighs about a buck herself and she had no problem because she got her feet set, pulled it back into her shoulder and as you said, "owned it". The Mosin and that 3" 12 ga shell really got her attention, but she didn't have any trouble with it and she had a great time.  

I did not realize (guess I just hadn't checked) that you could get .38 shot shells. I've seen the 22's and I've read some of the back and forth on the forums about the usefulness of them.  I've got a trusty little 2" .38. That may just be just the ticket. 

I'll try to educate her Simi, but you know how that goes. LOL Myself, I *used* to think the "only good snake is a dead snake", but I've since come to know better. I read where we've had a copperhead explosion here in GA because everybody was killing or relocating the king snakes that kept the copperheads under control. Now that I know that, I've been trying to get that across to her.  And I've been trying to better educate myself as to which ones to leave be. 

I guess I do need to get her out to the range before I make a decision and I should let her shoot whatever is going to be "hers". I know that's very prudent advice. The only place I know of around here is about an hour away and I will NOT step foot in that place again. I'm sure there are plenty of places around Atlanta though that rent stuff out. Will be worth the drive. 

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I've been wanting a 20 ga for a long time to go with my 12's, but I also would like a 410 for nostalgia, as much as anything, I guess. That may be the biggest part of my problem..... I want "whatever" but that may not be what I need for the job.  Great advice here as always!


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## Lookin4GoodLife

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I might have to try that open up a shot shel and load it with rice then close it back up and shoot some card board if it went through 2 sheets cardboard i would be sold that it would do on snakes.


Hey, there's an idea!  We've cut open some 12 ga shells and diddled around with some reloads closing them up with hot glue, always weighing them to keep them under the original weight. I hadn't thought about something LESS lethal.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

Justin, I think you're selling the .410 a little short, but your point is well taken. I agree the 20 would be much more versatile and probably a MUCH better bargain especially when you're throwing in the ammo value. I just remember seeing those freon cans blasted to smithereens by my uncle's 410 and as I said, this was about 40 years ago. These were not flimsy aluminum like beer cans are made of today. I agree it's a much wimpier shot than a 20 or a 12, but I'd no more want to be shot with a 410 than I would a 22.


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## unregistered41671

My wife shoots a 20 GA with no problem


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## simi-steading

Mt wife bought her poly bodyguard as her first gun.. Bought it without shooting it.. She didn't like it because the trigger is too much... She wanted to sell it, but I bought some shot shells and let her shoot it and she said yep.. that will work fine for snakes.. Plus I like the thing, so I won't let her sell it no matter what.. 

After seeing the damage it did to that snake the other day, I'm WAY more than happy with it.. I keep three shot shells in it, and two JHP's in it.. That way if I do have more than a snake to deal with, if it's still standing after three shots of shot, then I got two slugs to finish it off.. 

I tend to carry it most the time around the property... It's a lot lighter on the pants than carrying one of my CZ's... much less lugging a shotgun around.. 

I would have no problem believing a 38 shell loaded with rice would take out a snake..


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## bigjon

problem solved-I own both.410 with 3" shells has netted 5 woodchucks so far.20 gauge for anything bigger.


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## RonM

Cant use a .410 in Delaware for deer hunting, but can use a 20 ga. must tell you something...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

RonM said:


> Cant use a .410 in Delaware for deer hunting, but can use a 20 ga. must tell you something...



same here but i often wonder if it wasn't because everyone stuffed a 45lc colt in them technically making it a rifle in a shotgun zone

then again what does that say that a 45lc is more effective than a 410 slug

had a family friend who had polio she has been dead many years but she had a old station wagon with hand controls and drove that all over she had a class A disabled permit and hunted from the car on the side of the road using a 410 but with a 45lc loaded in it this was before some of our current laws


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## hawgsquatch

-justin- said:


> its my opinion that .410 shotgun is useless for anything BUT snakes.. and even a stick will do you better, but if you have to have something close to you for that situation i wouldnt waste my time on a taurus judge, id just get a .410/.45LC 2-shot derringer.. but thats the ONLY think .410 will really be good for
> 
> a 20 gauge is going to be much more versatile though, its hands down the better choice for any multi purpose tool


I keep a journal of the things I kill, Since I started hunting in 1990 I have killed literally thousands of squirrels and blue or ruffed grouse with my J.C.Higgins depression era single shot 410. I've shot a few rattlesnails too, but prefer to just run them over on the road. Its not a good wing shooting gun, but for meat killing the thing shoots where I point it and throws enough lead, tight enough at thirty yards to take the head off of a grouse, quail or squirrel. I reload my shells for two or three bucks a box with a Lee loader and a hammer sitting in front of the fire. It's my dedicated truck gun and I can carry a days worth of shells in my front pocket.


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## hawgsquatch

Oh and when I was a kid we would kill garter snakes and Lizards by taking a .38 and pulling the lead with a pair of pliers, then sticking the shell full of powder in a bar of Fells Naphtha laundry soap and breaking off a plug. It would cream a lizard at twenty feet.


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## moonwolf

A 7/8 oz. load in 20 gauge is light for recoil and the ammo
for 20 is quite a bit cheaper than .410 in my area.
I'd choose 20 over .410.


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## littlejoe

You don't really need a gun to kill a snake. And actually some things work much better for snake killing than a firearm!


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## StL.Ed

littlejoe said:


> You don't really need a gun to kill a snake. And actually some things work much better for snake killing than a firearm!


Perhaps true, but it's difficult to carry a mongoose with you all of the time.
eep:


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## hawgsquatch

StL.Ed said:


> Perhaps true, but it's difficult to carry a mongoose with you all of the time.
> eep:


IWB mongoose holster. Look it up.:happy:


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## 1shotwade

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> same here but i often wonder if it wasn't because everyone stuffed a 45lc colt in them technically making it a rifle in a shotgun zone
> 
> then again what does that say that a 45lc is more effective than a 410 slug
> 
> had a family friend who had polio she has been dead many years but she had a old station wagon with hand controls and drove that all over she had a class A disabled permit and hunted from the car on the side of the road using a 410 but with a 45lc loaded in it this was before some of our current laws



Hey Pete!! Friendships fall shoot opens tomorrow. Y'all come'n down?

Wade


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## Lookin4GoodLife

Is that a mongoose in your pocket or..... Sorry.  Yeah, I don't have a problem chopping a snake's head off with a shovel or bush axe, but DW ain't gettin NEAR a snake! 

Found this, very interesting: http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-mossberg-510-mini-510-mini-all-purpose/50490 Might see if I can handle one of these at the gun show.

Man, they're proud of those .38 shot shells IF you can find them! I did find a pretty good article on hand loading them though and I've got a buddy who reloads, so maybe we'll see what we can come up with.


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## simi-steading

Yeah.. the shot shells aren't cheap.. Last time I bought two packs of them, it was $15 for 10... Not a cheap way to kill a snake, but I'd rather pay that than pay for anti-venom..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

1shotwade said:


> Hey Pete!! Friendships fall shoot opens tomorrow. Y'all come'n down?
> 
> Wade



I wish , wife has a list of everything I have been putting off all summer while i was hardly home , now it's time to pay the piper 

My son is out at scout camp for the weekend and i have already been told I am only allowed to go to to scout camp with the wife present cause i been known to get involved in a project at scout camp and not be seen for the rest of the weekend at home.

so it is list time


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## 1shotwade

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I wish , wife has a list of everything I have been putting off all summer while i was hardly home , now it's time to pay the piper
> 
> My son is out at scout camp for the weekend and i have already been told I am only allowed to go to to scout camp with the wife present cause i been known to get involved in a project at scout camp and not be seen for the rest of the weekend at home.
> 
> so it is list time



Remind me again why women are always the boss 'cause we said they could be?Now just how does this benefit us again?


Wade


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## whiterock

I'll vote for a 20 ga, Remington or Mossberg, for cost of ammo, availability, amt of shot, versatility in useage, ability to change out chokes. The only .410 I've shot kicked worse than a 20 gauge to me. It was a side by side double. Youth model 870 would be my choice.
Ed


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

1shotwade said:


> Remind me again why women are always the boss 'cause we said they could be?Now just how does this benefit us again?
> 
> 
> Wade



HAPPY WIFE HAPPY LIFE !

and I really have been gone almost every weekend since march , think i can count on one hand the weekends I didn't have something all year

and I she is taking over all my shooting sports administrative stuff because I hate paperwork , i have her off to an all weekend training to learn the ins and outs of that job coming up 

I think we are going to go to Bloody Lake Rendezvous in the spring and it was her idea , so progress is being made.

now i need to get her shooting some black powder , and not just her black pistol


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## Nimrod

The primary concern seems to be a small person shooting snakes. I agree with the folks that said use the 38 revolver you already have and load shot for this. You can't carry a shotgun and do work at the same time so it won't be handy when you need it. Keep the revolver in a holster and it's always handy. Snake shot loads shouldn't kick too much either.

For Ozark Tom,

A 12 gauge can kick a lot more than a 20 but it's wrong to say that it always will. You can put shells in a 12 gauge that have more powder and shot than any 20 gauge shell holds because the 12 gauge shell is bigger. The 12 will kick more if you do that.

If you put shells containing the same amount of shot and powder in both gauge guns the 20 will seem to kick more than the 12. You have heard "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" and may remember the equation F=ma (force = mass times acceleration) from a science class. If you shoot a 1 oz. shot charge with a muzzel velocity of 1200 feet per second from both a 12 or a 20 gauge gun the mass (1 oz.) and the acceleration (from zero to 1200 feet per second) is the same so the force is the same. We are assuming that the barrels are the same length and the time to accelerate the shot charge is the same and the 20 gauge gun weighs less than the 12. The force on the guns are the same except in the opposite direction to the shot because of the "equal and opposite reaction". The 12 gauge has more mass (weight) than the 20 so the acceleration has to be more for the 20 than the 12 for both to exert the same force on the gun (and shooter). The mass of the 12 gauge gun times the acceleration of the 12 gauge gun = the force = the mass of the 20 gauge gun times the acceleration of the 20 gauge gun. Since the 20 gauge gun is accelerating faster than the 12 gauge gun the force it applies to your shoulder happens in a shorter period of time and feels bigger than the force from the 12 gauge gun even though the force is the same.

Of course the 12 will kick less if you shoot shells with a smaller charge of shot and/or smaller powder charge as the 20 gauge.


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## 1shotwade

Nimrod said:


> The primary concern seems to be a small person shooting snakes. I agree with the folks that said use the 38 revolver you already have and load shot for this. You can't carry a shotgun and do work at the same time so it won't be handy when you need it. Keep the revolver in a holster and it's always handy. Snake shot loads shouldn't kick too much either.
> 
> For Ozark Tom,
> 
> A 12 gauge can kick a lot more than a 20 but it's wrong to say that it always will. You can put shells in a 12 gauge that have more powder and shot than any 20 gauge shell holds because the 12 gauge shell is bigger. The 12 will kick more if you do that.
> 
> If you put shells containing the same amount of shot and powder in both gauge guns the 20 will seem to kick more than the 12. You have heard "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" and may remember the equation F=ma (force = mass times acceleration) from a science class. If you shoot a 1 oz. shot charge with a muzzel velocity of 1200 feet per second from both a 12 or a 20 gauge gun the mass (1 oz.) and the acceleration (from zero to 1200 feet per second) is the same so the force is the same. We are assuming that the barrels are the same length and the time to accelerate the shot charge is the same and the 20 gauge gun weighs less than the 12. The force on the guns are the same except in the opposite direction to the shot because of the "equal and opposite reaction". The 12 gauge has more mass (weight) than the 20 so the acceleration has to be more for the 20 than the 12 for both to exert the same force on the gun (and shooter). The mass of the 12 gauge gun times the acceleration of the 12 gauge gun = the force = the mass of the 20 gauge gun times the acceleration of the 20 gauge gun. Since the 20 gauge gun is accelerating faster than the 12 gauge gun the force it applies to your shoulder happens in a shorter period of time and feels bigger than the force from the 12 gauge gun even though the force is the same.
> 
> Of course the 12 will kick less if you shoot shells with a smaller charge of shot and/or smaller powder charge as the 20 gauge.



Yep! Just what you said! Two other things that will effect the perceived "kick" that a gun has is the choke in the barrel and the size of the shot.If all other is equal,shooting a "full choke 20 ga. will have a perceived kick harder than a 12 open cylinder simply because the shot is being "choked" down into a tighter space.Also,the size of the shot. If you shoot the 20 with #4 buck and the 12 with #10 bird shot(all other things being the same) the 20 will kick harder because the smaller shot in the 12 will "choke" down more readily than the 4 buck.
Like I said before, you wouldn't buy a car with out test driving it!


Wade


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## -justin-

hawgsquatch said:


> I keep a journal of the things I kill, Since I started hunting in 1990 I have killed literally thousands of squirrels and blue or ruffed grouse with my J.C.Higgins depression era single shot 410. I've shot a few rattlesnails too, but prefer to just run them over on the road. Its not a good wing shooting gun, but for meat killing the thing shoots where I point it and throws enough lead, tight enough at thirty yards to take the head off of a grouse, quail or squirrel. I reload my shells for two or three bucks a box with a Lee loader and a hammer sitting in front of the fire. It's my dedicated truck gun and I can carry a days worth of shells in my front pocket.


even a BB gun will kill those things at that range, be much cheaper in initial cost and in ammo, so the .410 still doesnt impress me when a simple air rifle can get the same game


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## alleyyooper

Just the cost of shells for a 410 in my area is a great reason not to use one or buy one. 
On Tuesday at a box store similar to Wally world 410 3 inch # 6 shot was $12.99 a box of 25 and the # 6 shot was all they had. Box of 25 20ga. shells from # 5 shot to #8 skeet loads were $5.00.

My wife also can handle a 20ga. just fine.

 Al


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## Cornhusker

I will jump in here to say that a .410 is a great snake gun, and I've never seen the snake a .410 couldn't turn to snake juice.
I have some .410 pistols that are handy and deadly.
A single shot Super Comanche is my favorite, it uses a "choke" at the end of the barrel to straighten the shot pattern so it doesn't spiral out of control due to the rifling.
I have a Rossi single shot pistol and a double barrel .410 pistol but I rarely ever shoot them.
Don't get me wrong, if they made those in a 20 gauge, I'd be selling a kidney to get one, but take my word, a .410 is more than enough for a snake, even with target loads.


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## poorboy

jist don't buy 'er a youth Rossi single shot 20 ga. they kick like hell(cause they are so lightweight). A youth Mossy 500 or Remington 870 youth model 20 ga. would be a good way to go...Take the plug out an the Mossy will hold 5 in the magazine, only illegal for hunting certain game.
personally, we have no trouble here killing snakes with .22 birdshot shells..I buy the Winchester brand cause they come 50 to a box an are much cheaper than the cci's..


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## watcher

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> I didn't want to veer off BlueRose's thread although it may be relevant to her search. I would like to ask more questions about shotguns without turning her thread into a mishmash.
> 
> I've got my needs around a homestead pretty much covered except for one. DW and snakes. She is deathly afraid of snakes. I've explained to her that the vast majority of snakes are going to try to get away from you, not attack you, but she's not having it. She KNOWS she's going to encounter them when we get our homestead and I want her to be able to DEAL with them, not run from them. I doubt she'd be able to hit a snake with a pistol when she was in a state of panic so I'm thinking a nice, lightweight shotgun would do the trick.


I see a big problem here. If she's in a state of panic you don't want a firearm anywhere near her! I've seen boats where people have shot or beaten holes in them when a snake fell out a tree into the boat while they were fishing and one case where someone jumped out of the boat. I've seen an incubator ruined when it was shot several times because there was a small snake under it. All by people who panicked when they saw a snake.

What you need to do is lessen her irrational fear of snakes.


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## simi-steading

Ya'll are forgetting one more thing that decides how bad a gun kicks.. How much drop there is to the comb.. If there's very little drop, the gun is going to kick a lot more than a gun that has a lot of drop..


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## simi-steading

watcher said:


> What you need to do is lessen her irrational fear of snakes.


I can't agree with this more... I've been doing just this wit my wife.. If a person panics when they see a snake, then they probably shouldn't be living in the woods... I've gotten my wife to where now she doesn't want to kill them. but she'd rather them not be near her..


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## 1shotwade

Really for a homesteader there is no reason you shouldn't have a hoe in your had most of the time,even if it is just as a walking stick.You'll kill a lot more weeds 'cause you got it with you and it's the best tool going for kill'n snakes.And if you panic you'll only break the handle out of the hoe. Not so dangerous as a gun!

Wade


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## simi-steading

My cat had been messing around with a lamp the other night.. Thought he was playing with the cord.. He knocked it over so I went to pick it up.. It pinned a Northern Ringneck snake under the lamp but it was as good as dead because the cat had punctured it pretty bad.. 

It took a while but I got my wife to at least look at pictures of it on the web. She wouldn't let me show it to her in person... So after she read all it ate, and I explained if we saw it, we probably had baby mice it liked, then she felt a little better... I reminded her how snakes don't tear up and pee all over your good linens.....

She's a little more accepting, She stood and studied the copperhead I killed, and was looking at the babies I pulled from it.. so at least I got her to get a close look at one.. Major step for her.. She used to dance and run if someone just said there was one...


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## K-9

1shotwade said:


> Really for a homesteader there is no reason you shouldn't have a hoe in your had most of the time,even if it is just as a walking stick.You'll kill a lot more weeds 'cause you got it with you and it's the best tool going for kill'n snakes.And if you panic you'll only break the handle out of the hoe. Not so dangerous as a gun!
> 
> Wade


Wade, you are almost right, it is probably the second best tool, the best one I have found for all around use is to take two teeth from a sickle bar mower and weld them on a small piece of flat stock and then attach that to a rake handle. That way you can drag them out from under stuff and have 6 sharp edges to take care of business. Try it you'll like it as the old saying goes.


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## simi-steading

Well... It would have been kinda hard for me to carry that hoe the other day while I was splitting and stacking wood... I almost forgot I had my 38 in my pocket.. seriously, I started looking for something sharp and long before I remembered.. Besides, what better target practice, than shooting at the actual reason you're carrying..


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## 1shotwade

simi-steading said:


> Well... It would have been kinda hard for me to carry that hoe the other day while I was splitting and stacking wood... I almost forgot I had my 38 in my pocket.. seriously, I started looking for something sharp and long before I remembered.. Besides, what better target practice, than shooting at the actual reason you're carrying..



I have gotten to the age (and state of health) that I enjoy all the pleasures of a walking stick and I use the hoe. I also have constant "tremors" now for the past few months so I have taken up the 410 and my walking stick for squirrel. It's been 50 years since I had to pick shot our of a meal of squirrel!
It's the "golden years"!

Wade


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I ran a little experiment , I took a run of the mill 12ga target /game load loaded with #8 shot I opened up the crimp with a awl , then dumped out the shot and made sure to get it all out , then i packed it full of plain old dry rice i got from the kitchen then folded the crimp back down 

I had a box from a router so shiny coated corrugated cardboard about 2 inches thick and 9x13 inches I set it up and shot it , the barrel was about 6 feet from the target the box is peppered the wad obvious blew right through both sides making a big hole 

but almost every grain of rice in a 9 inch pattern blew through the first side of the box several went through both sides a bunch more went part way through and left the back of the box freckled with little bulges 

this was fired from a smooth bore slug barrel so cylinder or improved cylinder 

the best part no recoil 22lr like recoil almost non existent , they feed and eject fine with the pump

now I can see where rice would attract moisure , so now i need to find the bag of craft beads i have around her someplace , you know the kind used in a stuffed annimal to give it some weight and make it sit up like what was used in the beany baby plush toys that used to be so popular , now i see a box of them at yard sales for free, slice them open and dump out your new snake shot


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## simi-steading

How about the old fail safe of rock salt, or kosher salt?


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## 1shotwade

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I ran a little experiment , I took a run of the mill 12ga target /game load loaded with #8 shot I opened up the crimp with a awl , then dumped out the shot and made sure to get it all out , then i packed it full of plain old dry rice i got from the kitchen then folded the crimp back down
> 
> I had a box from a router so shiny coated corrugated cardboard about 2 inches thick and 9x13 inches I set it up and shot it , the barrel was about 6 feet from the target the box is peppered the wad obvious blew right through both sides making a big hole
> 
> but almost every grain of rice in a 9 inch pattern blew through the first side of the box several went through both sides a bunch more went part way through and left the back of the box freckled with little bulges
> 
> this was fired from a smooth bore slug barrel so cylinder or improved cylinder
> 
> the best part no recoil 22lr like recoil almost non existent , they feed and eject fine with the pump
> 
> now I can see where rice would attract moisure , so now i need to find the bag of craft beads i have around her someplace , you know the kind used in a stuffed annimal to give it some weight and make it sit up like what was used in the beany baby plush toys that used to be so popular , now i see a box of them at yard sales for free, slice them open and dump out your new snake shot



So I don't understand why y'all are going to all the bother of changing out the lead shot. You don't want the dying snake to suffer lead poisoning?Just shoot the thing with the load you;ve got and be done with it.

Wade


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

simi-steading said:


> How about the old fail safe of rock salt, or kosher salt?



funny you mention that I went back to the kitchen and found we had some small rock salt in a grinder , well lets just say the old timer knew a thing or two pattern is tighter , boom bigger because it was more compressed it got better pressure 

pattern about 4 inches at 6 feet

but still very little recoil as the payload doesn't weigh much and , the snake is dead and pre seasoned , we have a winner , good old rock salt loads 

I only know one guy who was ever shot with rock salt , he said at what he thought was 35 yards as he was running away it went through his shirt and pants and imbedded in his skin , he was on the way home from school when the kid he was walking with decided to go get some peaches off this guys tree, well the old guy come out on his porch started yelling , the other kid got out of sight and the only thing the old man saw was my friend running away and let him have it 

today this would gain national media attention , "MAN SHOOTS INOCENT UNARMED BOY IN BACK OVER SUSOPECTED THEFT OF FRUIT" but in 1950s West Virginia as a black kid his mother and grandmother knew and that was about it.
any way he said he spent the rest of the afternoon laying in a cold mountain creek to get relief before going home to his mother He turned out fine and served 22 years as and officer in the USN I met him some years later in one of his post navy careers. 

and since occasionally there is justice even if not swift , the kid stealing fruit graduated to bigger items and spent time in prison later in life.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

1shotwade said:


> So I don't understand why y'all are going to all the bother of changing out the lead shot. You don't want the dying snake to suffer lead poisoning?Just shoot the thing with the load you;ve got and be done with it.
> 
> Wade


there was some concern brought up earlier about things behind the snake when it is shot , when somewhat overly excited persons pump them full of shot 


also as a huge recoil reducer lightening up the load , with salt or rice it had almost no recoil not that it was a heavy load to start with but more than maybe a recoil sensitive person would care for


and finally to be able to use the 12s that the original poster said he already owns , a rock salt or rice load is a few cents compared to a 200 dollar or more gun


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## 1shotwade

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> there was some concern brought up earlier about things behind the snake when it is shot , when somewhat overly excited persons pump them full of shot
> 
> 
> also as a huge recoil reducer lightening up the load , with salt or rice it had almost no recoil not that it was a heavy load to start with but more than maybe a recoil sensitive person would care for
> 
> 
> and finally to be able to use the 12s that the original poster said he already owns , a rock salt or rice load is a few cents compared to a 200 dollar or more gun



OK Pete! I guess I didn't read everything. Makes sense. BTW< I can vouch for the rock salt! It burns like ____ when you get shot with it. Nothing like purifying a wound with salt.Halloween just wasn't safe around here!LOL

Wade


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## watcher

simi-steading said:


> My cat had been messing around with a lamp the other night.. Thought he was playing with the cord.. He knocked it over so I went to pick it up.. It pinned a Northern Ringneck snake under the lamp but it was as good as dead because the cat had punctured it pretty bad..
> 
> It took a while but I got my wife to at least look at pictures of it on the web. She wouldn't let me show it to her in person... So after she read all it ate, and I explained if we saw it, we probably had baby mice it liked, then she felt a little better... I reminded her how snakes don't tear up and pee all over your good linens.....
> 
> She's a little more accepting, She stood and studied the copperhead I killed, and was looking at the babies I pulled from it.. so at least I got her to get a close look at one.. Major step for her.. She used to dance and run if someone just said there was one...


Caught a 4+ foot rattler (biggest one I've ever caught) in the yard a while back. Took me forever to find anyone in the DNR who could tell me if it was legal for me to relocate it (it was) and where they wanted me to move it to.

The wife kept telling me "Hold it this way I want to get a better picture if it."

And yes all of my neighbors and most of my friends think I'm crazy for not just killing it.


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## watcher

simi-steading said:


> How about the old fail safe of rock salt, or kosher salt?


NEVER!! Salt will draw moisture and form a solid 'slug' which is much harder than lead which can do nasty things when fired.


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## simi-steading

watcher said:


> Caught a 4+ foot rattler (biggest one I've ever caught) in the yard a while back. Took me forever to find anyone in the DNR who could tell me if it was legal for me to relocate it (it was) and where they wanted me to move it to.
> 
> The wife kept telling me "Hold it this way I want to get a better picture if it."
> 
> And yes all of my neighbors and most of my friends think I'm crazy for not just killing it.



I've not no issue with relocating poisonous snakes, so long as it's not my property I'm keeping them on... They do good, but I don't want to get bit while they are..


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## hawgsquatch

This post has inspired me. On my last day off I pulled the shot from a couple of shells and poured them full of melted paraffin. They should do well for snakes and I bet I could splat a raccoon under the porch with a 20 or 12. No recoil to speak of and popped a 2 liter full of water at 20 feet nicely. Will post pics when I learn how.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

hawgsquatch said:


> This post has inspired me. On my last day off I pulled the shot from a couple of shells and poured them full of melted paraffin. They should do well for snakes and I bet I could splat a raccoon under the porch with a 20 or 12. No recoil to speak of and popped a 2 liter full of water at 20 feet nicely. Will post pics when I learn how.



now i have heard of mixing the shot with paraffin and pouring it back in to make a wicked effective improvised slug but strait paraffin that's an idea 

how is the accuracy at 25 yards


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I think I have a combo that will work , I found those poly pellets today , not sure why I didn't see them before they where right there in the shelf 

any way I made up a shell with poly pellets , to give you an idea on size the 8 shot dumped out of the shell measured .110" the beads measure .150" I filled the wad back up with them , remember to tamp them in a bit with a dowel or something then put the crimp back 

this fired at a card board box seems like the spread should be right but over penetration shouldn't be an issue 

spread at 6-7 feet was about 8 inches . they all punched though the cardboard 

who wants to try it on snakes , I haven't got any


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## Lookin4GoodLife

I wonder about making pellets out of hot glue on a non-stick surface.... Then doing the same thing. Probably spread all crazy because of their shape non-uniformity. Might be fun though.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

glueblits , or glue bullets , made them , use a spray of vegtable cooking oil on a bullet mold then close the sprue plate and stick the tip of a hot glue gun intot he hole fill till you can't get any more in , this is like home style injection molding

when i made them i did them in a 308 mold and loaded them in 30-30 cases just a primer , thay can be fun , most guys do them for a revolver cartridge and then use them to practice quick draw and fire 

be careful they may only weigh 20 or so gr but with a charge of powder behind them they can go through more than you might think 

if you had a slug mold you could make a very interesting rubber slug

the poly beads are very small and dense these are good qualities for a shot i tried some larger ones and couldn't get the number in I liked and they were to light , making a dense packed load is important to getting enough resistance to going down the barrel to get the powder to burn , not enough weight and you have a bunch of left over powder that didn't burn


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