# How to divide land?



## Faithful One (Mar 22, 2008)

I've never owned land, so give me a how to for a dummie.

I would like two acres at the northwest part of a 40 acre ground, what needs to be done?

I kinda understand that a title needs written out for the land and their land title and creating a new title for the two acres? Who does this?

Also Does this need surveyed and a professional grid description written?:shrug:

:shrug::shrug:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

You need a surveyor and a lawyer. They can tell you all the details for your area. Other regulations may apply


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

County Clerk


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## Hoop (Jan 1, 2003)

This is not a one size fits all answer. Different localities will mean different issues.

In most states, undeveloped land does NOT need to be surveyed to sell it. However, if you're borrowing money on the land, bankers usually INSIST upon a survey. 

There also may be zoning issues. 

Remember this when purchasing vacant land. Without access to your property, you have nothing. Avoid all land on shared roads unless the property is very cheap or free. Oral utterings mean nothing when it comes to access. If your easement to the land is not written on the deed....you don't have it.


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## deb (Jul 27, 2002)

I would first start with the Town (Township) clerk, then county clerk to find out the land division & zoning rules before you start paying anyone (lawyer, surveyor) to work.

Once you know the rules and understand what is possible, you will want to hire a lawyer and a surveyor. Don't trust the lawyer or surveyor to know the local rules because they work in a number of areas with different rules.
Don't forget to the title insurance. You don't want to 'buy' land and find out later the person you paid doesn't own it.

Get the land surveyed before you buy. It will come in handy later!

deb
in wi


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## Brandr (Mar 3, 2008)

Hoop said:


> This is not a one size fits all answer. Different localities with mean different issues.
> 
> In most states, undeveloped land does NOT need to be surveyed to sell it. However, if you're borrowing money on the land, bankers usually INSIST upon a survey.
> 
> ...


That depends...in the state of SC...one cannot be landlocked.
That is why it is a good ideal to have a lawyer work out the details.


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## Christiaan (Mar 13, 2004)

When we subdivided my Dad's place we first went to the County Clerk. They gave us loads of information. Then we found the surveyor who had last worked on the area to do the survey. Saved about half the cost because he could work from his notes and old markers. Then we found a reputable real estate attorney by asking around. Things went very smoothly, but even with saving on the survey it isn't cheap. Be prepared to spend a few thousand for the subdivide.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

Have it surveyed and have the surveyor put some t-posts in to help you know where the boundaries are. Surveying is expensive...buy the 40;-)

RF


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## Faithful One (Mar 22, 2008)

Well I live in Illinois, and it's in the boonies, so it's zoned as farm.

Yeah it's by the road, my question as a buyer, is who would do what...

Like who agrees to pay what? and would a notary note be enough to define who pays what, for example I'll pay for the land survey, but what if the owner decides not to sell after the survey is complete? I loose.

Would a notary note be good enough spelling out the promises?

Also can somone tell me what a Title and Abstract company does besides title insurance?

Seems to me the tough part is dividing the land, once divided the hard part is over...

Okay this is the steps I'm getting so far:
owner goes to clerks office to subdivide
get surveyor out and get concordanance and title description
a new title is made???????? :shrug: with the old owner
then transfer over to me.

If I do have to use a lawyer, I might as well deal with a real estate agent, small tracts of land in the country comes up every now and then, but you pay agent prices.:nono:


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## mwhit (Jun 8, 2006)

Faithful One said:


> Yeah it's by the road, my question as a buyer, is who would do what...
> 
> Like who agrees to pay what? and would a notary note be enough to define who pays what, for example I'll pay for the land survey, but what if the owner decides not to sell after the survey is complete? I loose.
> 
> ...


I would definitely use a lawyer. *Each state has different laws*. For example, in NY I can write up a deed and sell you anything I want to (even the neighbors property)-- nobody checks it at the county clerks office, they just file it. So theoretically, you could buy something that will never belong to you-- unless you have abstract (title search) and a survey you will never know if the 'owner' had a legal interest in the property you buy. 

A title/abstract company will do a title search to determine if anyone else has interest in the property, if there are any liens on it etc. I had a full title search of my property done in '03. It was from 1960-current and it cost me $600. Not too big a price to make sure your title is clear...


Michelle


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Because you're a babe-in-the woods, get professional help. 

All info that the other posters said is right on.

No access- don't buy.
EVERYTHING MUST be in writing.
Have it surveyed - or sometimes it's cheaper & you can ask just to have the "corners staked". 
Everything is negociable in a land transaction. I'd go for 1/2 -/ 1/2 on the expensive survey as it'll benefit both parties. 
If you don't want to hire an atty, find an experienced land realtor & ask if they'll do it for X dollars, many times they'll guide a transaction through without their full commission - especially in down times. 

Read some of the older threads & you'll see some of the pitffalls:
potable water, access over someone elses land, boundary issues, septic issues.

Oh yea, have it percolation tested so you can install a septic if you're rural. If it doesn't perc - don't buy. Land can perc in one area and not in another. 
Make sure you have potable water & how deep your well will be - big bucks! 
Find out what the plans are for the rest of the acrage - you don't want to end up next to a housing development. Try to get first right of refusal on the other 38. Or buy it all....Sometmes you can buy it all, then sell part & end up with yours free & clear.

Good luck...


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## deb (Jul 27, 2002)

In some areas farm land is not dividable into small plots.

Don't depend on the seller to know the land division rules because most folks don't bother to go to town & zoning meetings. Same thing for lawyers, real estate agent and surveyors. Let the buyer beware.

A quick call to the town clerk will let you know if land division is under town rules or county rules. Our township isn't under county zoning and the county clerk wouldn't be able to tell you anything. If the county has control then call the county clerk or look at their website for division info.

If the land is dividable, then the owner of the land has to pursue getting it divided, rezoned, etc. They may have to get a survey to do this anyway.

You can make an offer for the land that has many contingencies 1) legally divided, 2) properly zoned, 3) tested oaky for septic etc., 4) able to get financing, etc. but you will need to a real estate lawyer or a rural real estate agent to write the offer so you don't lose your shirt, pants, etc on it.

The title company researches the ownership of the land, any liens on the land, any taxes due on the land. They prove that the "owner" has rights to sell you the land and the land is free and clear of all debts. The title company then issues you title insurance, which means if they missed something during their research and they will pay you for your loses.

A notary is not good enough to spell out promises for buying land. The notary only states the signatures are real, but the problem is the document has to hold up in court and if you don't know enough to get it right by yourself.

deb
in wi



Faithful One said:


> Well I live in Illinois, and it's in the boonies, so it's zoned as farm.
> 
> Yeah it's by the road, my question as a buyer, is who would do what...
> 
> ...


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

A property owner can normally subdivide by affidavit, up to a point anyway, depending on the laws of the particular state. A typical restriction is that the property can't be carved-up into any more than a certain number of parcels (4 is a common number) without hiring an engineer and designing a subdivision. Of course you'll also have to respect your zoning regulations, which normally restrict the minimum size of a parcel.

The affidavit is filed with your county recorder and normally costs about $15 to file.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Even knowing your in IL it makes a ton of difference just where you're at. it also makes a lot of difference just what ground you buy.
In some counties you could describe that 2 acres as starting from X go y feet to the starting point of the property and then go north b feet east c feet south b feet and west c feet to the point of beginning , this is called a metes and bounds discription.
In other counties you would be much better off to go to 2 1/2 acres that you could describe as the NW/4 ,NW 1/2,NW/4, NW 1/4 of section X in township y north range c east of the d ...etc this is called aliquot parts and in someplace's wont need surveying .
Go spend some time in your county courthouse asking around.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Also in Illinois you cannot be "land locked" - you will always have access to your property even if it means driving through someone's corn field.
Follow all the good advice given here and you'll be happy with your two acres!


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

deb said:


> In some areas farm land is not dividable into small plots....


This is good advice. Check your local zoning laws. In many rural agricultural counties, it may be required that an individual parcel be at least 5 to 15 acres to build a home on.

If two areas is all your county requires, consider this. Someday the landowner of the remaining 38 acres may decide to subdivide it into 19 parcels and you're gonna have a lot of close neighbors.


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## Fried Okra (Mar 28, 2008)

Go to the register of deeds - research the primary parcels and the adjoiners - many property descriptions indicate the surveyor and the date of survey, which may give you a lead on selecting a surveyor who is familiar with the site and could very well be less expensive.

I think that after doing your research a surveyor should be your next stop - most of us are good guys who will take the time to talk with you about the situation (and not send you an invoice for the 30 min.) and the local requirements.

Don't let someone convince you to do a simple deed w/o a survey, esp since the land is not in the family. Due diligence is key to any major purchase.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Fried Okra said:


> I think that after doing your research a surveyor should be your next stop - most of us are good guys who will take the time to talk with you about the situation (and not send you an invoice for the 30 min.) and the local requirements.
> 
> Don't let someone convince you to do a simple deed w/o a survey, esp since the land is not in the family. Due diligence is key to any major purchase.


Often a surveyer is a good idea but the founding fathers of our nation went thru a lot of trouble to create a system where the average person could reliably loacte an average parcel.
In fact even the USA government uses this system to deed lands without a survey.


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## Fried Okra (Mar 28, 2008)

fantasymaker said:


> Often a surveyer is a good idea but the founding fathers of our nation went thru a lot of trouble to create a system where the average person could reliably loacte an average parcel.
> In fact even the USA government uses this system to deed lands without a survey.


You can locate *where* it is ... but it might not end up being *what* you think it is. Faithful One is not buying a 1/4 1/4 section (or some other piece so simply described) and I have no idea what the parcels around him/her look like, but if I were buying I'd darn sure want to know (ie. their surveyor didn't quite find the section corner and their fence follows his line, not THE line). It's a great system for describing land but I don't think that Jefferson et al were negating _caveat emptor_.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Fried Okra said:


> You can locate *where* it is ... but it might not end up being *what* you think it is. Faithful One is not buying a 1/4 1/4 section (or some other piece so simply described) and I have no idea what the parcels around him/her look like, but if I were buying I'd darn sure want to know (ie. their surveyor didn't quite find the section corner and their fence follows his line, not THE line). It's a great system for describing land but I don't think that Jefferson et al were negating _caveat emptor_.


Could you explain this? Im just not getting what you are trying to say.

Part of the problem here is that we dont know WHAT faithfullone is trying to buy.
Nor do we know where he wants to buy
.
In many cases here in IL you are looking at perfectly square totally open square miles with the corners either marked or apparent.
So a 2 1/2 acre parcel could be either very easy or very hard for the layman to locate by aloquit parts.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

fantasymaker said:


> Could you explain this? Im just not getting what you are trying to say.
> 
> Part of the problem here is that we dont know WHAT faithfullone is trying to buy.
> Nor do we know where he wants to buy
> ...


On close inspection, you would find that all sections in Illinois and thruout the PLSS areas vary from a perfect square mile sometimes by only a little but all too often by a lot. To me, 5280' plus or minus 5' is a lot but many sections vary from exactly a mile in each dimension by hundreds and in some extreme cases by thousands of feet..

Therein, lies the problem in aliquotically creating a new parcel without an accurate survey. While it may be legal to convey a new tract of land with merely a general description, it does leave open the question of just where the limits of that land is on the ground. Some people get very upset over as little as 2' of ground.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

fantasymaker said:


> Often a surveyer is a good idea but the founding fathers of our nation went thru a lot of trouble to create a system where the average person could reliably loacte an average parcel.
> In fact even the USA government uses this system to deed lands without a survey.


"the average person could reliably locate an average parcel. (only if it were already accurately and visibly staked)"

It is true that an average person could write an aliquot description but they still could not likely place it correctly on the ground within many or even many dozens of feet.


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## Faithful One (Mar 22, 2008)

fantasymaker said:


> Could you explain this? Im just not getting what you are trying to say.
> 
> Part of the problem here is that we dont know WHAT faithfullone is trying to buy.
> Nor do we know where he wants to buy
> ...


most of the land is bottom land, but about 2-3 acres are up by the road, wooded and hilly with a old entrance, possibly a old house place.

There is a fence south of the land, and a road on the west side going north/south, the wooded section is in the south-western part of the property connering the road and that fence.

Keep posting guys, you folks sure have given me some good advice, it sure does sound like a survey and a abstract search.



> If you don't want to hire an atty, find an experienced land realtor & ask if they'll do it for X dollars, many times they'll guide a transaction through without their full commission - especially in down times.


That sounds like a promising ideal!


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

Start with the county clerk. In our county, only one house per 20 acres is allowed. You can sell off 5 acres, but the buyer may not be able to build.

This happened a few miles from us. Family sold a few acres off their 40 acre farm to son # 1 who built a home. They then sold 5 acres to son # 2. Son # 2 put in a driveway and well and went to get his building permit and was denied because only 2 houses are allowed on the 40 acres. You need to find out before you spend a lot of money getting halfway there. I think you can appeal, but no guarantee you will get approved on appeal either.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

hillsidedigger said:


> "the average person could reliably locate an average parcel. (only if it were already accurately and visibly staked)"
> 
> It is true that an average person could write an aliquot description but they still could not likely place it correctly on the ground within many or even many dozens of feet.


I disagree. That was the point of the rectangular net . And it worked! Very few of the individual parcels in IL were surveyed by surveyors .In fact huge amounts of land were simply stepped off from the nearest marker. AND THEY DID A GOOD JOB! People still can even though in some ways its a bit tougher now


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## Fried Okra (Mar 28, 2008)

fantasymaker said:


> I disagree. That was the point of the rectangular net . And it worked! Very few of the individual parcels in IL were surveyed by surveyors .In fact huge amounts of land were simply stepped off from the nearest marker. AND THEY DID A GOOD JOB! People still can even though in some ways its a bit tougher now


I think the point of the PLSS was and is to describe land - and it does work for that general purpose, but I would not trust an average citizen to properly step off and calculate double proportion for my plot of land - heck, I wouldn't trust my self as I don't work in a PLSS state. There is quite a difference between doing a good job and doing a job correctly.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

As a lot of professsionals in their own line of work do , I think you missed the point .Its not about perfection is about having a system that works.
It did work ,its still works and how can you argue with success? Its not perfect,it needs to be used with some common sence and inteligence ,but its a great system.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

fantasymaker said:


> I disagree. That was the point of the rectangular net . And it worked! Very few of the individual parcels in IL were surveyed by surveyors .In fact huge amounts of land were simply stepped off from the nearest marker. AND THEY DID A GOOD JOB! People still can even though in some ways its a bit tougher now


So, misunderstandings of maybe 5' or 50' or more in the position of boundary lines have never caused a problem?


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

hillsidedigger said:


> So, misunderstandings of maybe 5' or 50' or more in the position of boundary lines have never caused a problem?


Sure they do its what keeps surveyors employed. And its the reason surveyors have a skewed view. But most properties are fine.
Its sorta like a Doctor all they ever see is sick people but it doesn't mean everyone is so sick they cant function.


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## Fried Okra (Mar 28, 2008)

fantasymaker said:


> As a lot of professsionals in their own line of work do , I think you missed the point .Its not about perfection is about having a system that works.
> It did work ,its still works and how can you argue with success? Its not perfect,it needs to be used with some common sence and inteligence ,but its a great system.


Maybe we're talking past each other - PLSS is a GREAT way to 'describe' a piece of land and find it on a tax map - and it is great at organizing the bulk of the land in the US, so yes it is quite successful at what it does well and it will continue to do so. It does not set your corners for you or show you where you can build a fence, nor does it make it particularly easy for the lay person to ascertain these things. Here's a link to the 1973 Manual of Surveying for your reading pleasure.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

LOL I haven't read that in years ! Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
I don't think we are going to convince each other and I'm pretty sure that we have said all that anyone else wants to hear on the subject so I think Ill end my part of the discussion by saying ,Thank You . You reawakened some long dormant brain cells!


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