# 46 dead so far... :(



## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I have a question about my rabbits. I have california rabbits, 4 does and 1 buck. In their first litter they all had 9 kits, and they all passed away after 2 days. It was pretty evident that they weren't caring for them. We are on round two now, and one doe just had a litter of 10, and it seemed as if she was taking care of them but again they all died after 2 days. The first time around all of the babies had left the nest and were looking for mama, but this time only one baby was out of the nest. I am waiting for the other 3 to have their babes, but I am worried that I will lose those too  Is this just first time mother woes? Is there anything I can do to help out?


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Wow! I've never had a doe let all her babies die. With that said, a first time doe does have higher chances of this happening.However, since all the does babies died on the first go around...I would be suspicious. The only thing they(the does) have in common is the buck(whom I'm assuming isn't their full-blooded brother).

To check if the doe is feeding them, look for round bellies without wrinkles(aka frog-bellied I call it).Keep in mind though in the wild a doe may not feed her offspring the first time for 48 hours after birth(don't worry, they can go the 1st time not being fed till day 2 only).

I'm assuming all the babies are born alive,right?

There are some diseases a rabbit can carry that will make all the kits terminal. Have you checked the buck and does gentitals for signs of illness?

I"ll look for the list of those diseases. I know one is full-blown E.cunculi(all offspring of the doe are terminal and will never be viable). I'm thinking the other is some type of rabbit veneral disease.

1st time doe all the kits dying is one thing, all 4 does litters dying is something else. One of the does kits all dying again at the same age on a 2nd litter should be of concern, this is not normal for your stock.

Oh how I wish my other computer hadn't crashed recently with all my rabbit health info on it:grump:. This may take sometime, but I'll look to see if I can find the info again...


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Here's a creditable link for rabbit syphilis with treatment referring to "greater nest box losses (neonatal deaths)." for rabbits who carry this and then kindle.
I'm still looking for the other diseases that can cause though.


http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-health-feeding/vent-disease-syphilis-treatment/

Also certain things like Charcoal(which is great for a poisioned animal) can dry up your does milk supply or prevent it from lactating ever.I believe their are some herbs or forage that do this also.

Here's another disease(this one I've never heard of):

Some of the signs of metritis are enhanced breeding problems, increased amount of stillborn kits in the litter, does that fail to show maternal instincts & mother the kits, does that scatter kits on the wire, vaginal discharge, & multiple pinpoint abscesses around the vaginal area or in the sheath of the male animal. It's also listed that these does fail to lactate on day 3.


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Okay..I read this whole thing and now my head hurts:stars:.

http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/rabbits/rabbits.txt then realized it said diseases of Lab rabbits, however some of the diseases are known in reg. breeding rabbits.

Did I mention my head hurts now:stars:,lol


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

I love my dear sweet old country boy dad(he's 75). He read this and simply stated "get a new buck". I agree, try a new buck and see if things don't improve.


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## SherryB (Oct 10, 2012)

This is truly awful. I don't know if I could face another round of deaths from all 4 does. 

redneckswife, you mentioned that you "assumed the buck isn't their full-blood brother". Is this a problem in your mind? I have read that with rabbits, this is okay. I hope it is because I have that set-up in my rabbitry with the "back up buck" I saved from my very first litter and I'm using him... I do try and not put him with a full-blood sister(s) but sometimes I may have to just to provide him with some experience. So far, I've only done this once and everything seems fine.


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

What's the temperature in the area where the kits are? Is there enough fur and hay in the nest box?

Are the kits wrinkly? Any abnormalities? Diarrhea? 

If they are wrinkled, the does are probably not feeding them or not producing milk. But if this is the case, it is odd that all the does are not lactating. What protein percentage is the does' feed? 

It could be genetic, or an illness.


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## froebeli (Feb 14, 2012)

The accountant and puzzle working person in me wants lots more information in order to work the puzzle. 

Location in the country?
Type of Hutch?
Type of Nest box?
Next box materials? cedar shavings?
Temperatures?
Did the does pull fur?
Diet of the does?
Anything else in the cage other than wire, water and pellets?

There is one common denominator imho that would cause this to happen 5 times and with such consistency. Finding that "could" be the key. So far we have the Buck as the common thread, but what else?

I'm sure others will have more thoughts, but the above questions answered will help all of us help you.


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

SherryB said:


> redneckswife, you mentioned that you "assumed the buck isn't their full-blood brother". Is this a problem in your mind? I have read that with rabbits, this is okay.


If you breed a sibling pair and unknown to you, both of the parents(of the brother & sister-your littermate breeders) carry a recessive gene for an illness..since both of your breeders now carry that recessive...100% of the offspring would carry it. If it's a weakness or hereditary disease all of your stock now has this issue. Some people in-line breed(mother to son, father to daughter) but very few breed boy & girl from the same litter because that's when you really can run into problems.The genetics are to similar. And if the original breeding pair had any issues or diseases unknown to you..the issue is now compounded.

By litter breeding I mean your buck and doe that you intend to breed were born at the same time from the same doe and buck.


If you have any other options than litter mate breeding, I would definitely use the other option.

I hope I explained that right:bash:


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## SherryB (Oct 10, 2012)

RNWife.... Okay. So, if I am lucky and they have no health issues, it "might" be okay if all I'm doing is raising their litters to eat? I knew this could be a problem when I had an unrelated doe die and replaced her with a sibling of the buck I had saved but that's what I had at the time and was relying on book knowledge that it would be okay. But, he is such a good buck. I've never really picked him up and only patted his head a couple times a day. I decided the other day that he needed a lesson in people-loving so I got him out and he was AWESOME! Never even wiggled. The doe I bred to him is the doe that killed (?) the 2-4 week old bunnies a few days, so she has been bred now for a second chance. Other than something happening with those 2 bunnies she has been a really good momma. I separated her remaining 5 and 3 of the same age from another doe and I put ALL of them back in with her once a day to nurse and she dutifully nurses all of them. What about when they are siblings but not from the same litter? Does this help?


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

SherryB said:


> RNWife... What about when they are siblings but not from the same litter? Does this help?


Oh my gosh, honestly I don't know. They probably all still have the same genetic make-up(if the buck and doe you are wanting to breed come from the same breeding pair) just are different ages. Maybe someone else knows.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ok, so the does are all in cages that are half wire, and then they each have a wooden breeding box. They have hay in there, and get timothy every day as well as a 16% pellet. I am going to look on CL and see if there is a breeder that will trade me bucks or at least stud theirs out to me. I can't take all of these dead babies, I am pregnant and last litter that died made me cry. The mamas are all so sweet, they ALL pull fur and make great nests. No genital abnormalities on any of them, I have studied them all, especially the male. All of the babies are fully formed and look completely normal. The last litter of 10 had 2 that were slightly darker colored and more wrinkly, but the others were tighter skinned and pink with white fur coming in. I am planning on breeding again on the 22nd with a different buck so hopefully we get better results!


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Be careful when looking for a buck to borrow as just a stud...he may be carrying an illness with no visible outward signs that he transfers to your doe and then you might bring something unwanted into your rabbitry. I would only do this with someone I trust a whole lot and also make sure they know about the health of their rabbit too(like they didn't just purchase him).

I know this sounds like I'm being paranoid, but it's better safe than sorry when having "outside or newbie" rabbits around your stock. What could be worse than all the offspring dying? All of your rabbits catching something and dying.

BTW, Congratulations on YOUR baby on the way!!What an exciting time:bouncy:.


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

Sherry, there is a good discussion on brother and sister mating on HT,I attached the link--if you read the 10th post by KSALguy he explains. You can also find a couple of more threads too, on HT. After doing research, I bred brother and sister--will know in the next few days how it turns out..lol. I have done line breeding/inbreeding in horses...but this is my first with inbreeding rabbits. DH does inbreeding with his chickens once or twice, then mates from a different batch. 

*http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...-brother-sister-daughter-mating-question.html*


Sorry to go on a rabbit trail abagee_123, I wish I had answers for you loss, I know its sad and frustrating...hopefully you will find some answers. The board is a great place to gain a lot of knowledge.


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Point noted Countryfied. But if the pair is a brother & sister pair and all the offspring aren't viable doesn't that point to the "hidden" or fault genetic issue. I know line breeding (mother/son and father/daughter) is common, didn't know litter breeding was common(except a breeder in TN who told me this is how you find unknown issues in your breeding pairs). I didn't know anyone did it for a positive outcome.

I don't mind having more than one buck(they don't seem as temperamental as the does,lol) but I guess if it's what you have to work with...then do your thing

And Countryfied's right, if your unsure..here is definitely the place to go to find the answers:goodjob:


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

My outlook is as such, anytime you breed it is a gamble...breeding siblings is not something I would want to do a lot of....the purpose that I did it with my two,is I am in the middle of changing stock. I have a doe that is a year old that I havent been able to get a litter out of, so I thought I would try with a different buck this time and then cull. I tried her with her sire 3 different times and nada, so I decided to try with the Jr/her brother. Although I have another Sr buck, I wanted NZ and not Cali. She is building a nest but we shall see. If this doe has problems or the kits arent right...I would be more inclined to blame her not the brother/sister thing, only because I have had problems with getting her bred to begin with.

Imo, I think that your chances of having all of the litter with defects at least on the first go, would be very low especially if you were breeding both high quality siblings. And for purpose of eating, I wouldn't worry to much about it unless your production went down etc. There are probably more breeders doing it and just arent saying anything about it..lol I have 4 bucks right now..lol

Again a person has to be willing to cull, if they aren't then I don't suggest someone doing it. When I use to line breed horses..my thoughts were I was either going to have one heck of a horse, or one crazy S*O*B*....:grin: Fortunately the latter didnt happen, but I was willing to cull if needed be. It is a whole lot easier to cull rabbits then it is a horse.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

Inbreeding is not the devil, and there are TONS of misconceptions out there in regards to what is acceptable and what is not, Inbreeding Does Not Cause Issues in a well managed herd at all, you can breed sister brother all you want if you cull out the bad genetic traits and ONLY keep the good, and actually the idea that a brother sister pair is more closely related than a mother son, father daughter is not true, the brother sister pair have each received a DIFFERINT gene code from each parent, they are NOT IDENTICAL TWINS< but if you breed a mother son, pair or father daughter pair your essentially doubling up the genetic material from that parent in the next generation, if you kept breeding say Father to Daughter to Daughter to Daughter to Daughter you would eventually get Clone like results being identical to the original Father, 


ANY WAY that's another can of worms, it honestly sounds like a Management issue due to it happening 5 times in a row, the only real common denominator is the Management practices, if the first four litters were found on the wire in the first two days then the doe is dragging them out some how either when she jumps out of the box they are still attached or she is digging them out, we really need more information from the OP to know whats going on. we need to know the list of questions already asked and we also need to know how much time the OP or the OPs kids are spending messing with the babies, is there any stress causing factors in the rabbitry like loud sounds, predators, etc. 

no way to say whats going on with out more information


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

None were found on the wire they were all still in the nest. No kids handling them and I only lift the hair to see that they are ok and to get a head count. There are no predators near them and little noise. Let me look at the other questions and provide answers. 

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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I am just outside Denver colorado so ot hasn't been hot and the temps haven't dropped too low either. I did answer all the other questions in my previous post.

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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

I see you said you had wooden nest box...but I didnt see where you mention the size. Could they possibly be to small for the does to go in and out?


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

No the boxes themselves are about 2 ft by 2ft

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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

With horses you can have NI(Neonatal Isoerythrolysis)It occurs when the mother has antibodies against the blood type of the newborn

http://extension.vetmed.ufl.edu/files/2011/10/Neonatal-Isoerythrolysis-in-the-Horse.pdf

Do rabbits have anything like that?


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

abagee_123 said:


> No the boxes themselves are about 2 ft by 2ft
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Homesteading Today mobile app


 
Those are very large nest boxes, I would make the boxes much smaller


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Definitely not saying inbreeding is the devil,lol.
I just personally wouldn't breed that closely related due to POSSIBLE issues(but then again, I don't have a need too). I'm confused though why it causes issues possibly in humans, but not rabbits. I understand in line breeding not inbreeding(that's 2 different things) to get a certain quality enhanced

Still thinking I'd try a different buck, chances that all 4 does have an issue vs. one other rabbit having an issue...well. 

Illness or non-visible disease from your buck might still be an issue whether your inbreeding or not.

Did anyone say the OPs kids were messing with the babies..did I miss something:shrug:?

I can honestly say I have only ever lost one litter(a first time mom whose babies froze when it was 17degrees and I didn't use light reflectors&bulbs). I have 7 kids who peek at the babies from day one...but most of my does were raised with my kids peeking at them. I've heard over and over during my life from various people "don't touch the babies, the doe will reject them". I haven't found this to be true in my case(not saying it doesn't occur) in 32 years- with obviously many different does.I guess if I run across a doe who does this, I'd probably cull her anyways, the truth be told(I don't like a non-trusting doe).

Sometimes without lab testing there are no definite answers and you just have to change some factor of the equation to see what is or isn't working. If you try another buck and they successfully have living kits-then there's your answer. If you try a different buck and their all still dead, then you have to try a different approach and investigate.

I suggested the buck because it's the easiest variable to test first.

Countryfied, your post makes me think of my daughter's horse(she was [email protected]#### crazy),lol. I spent last Thanksgiving getting my pointer finger re-attached where she pulled my thru a trailer.

Agree with Ksal though that one pulled out could of come out on a nipple(am I allowed to use that word here:gaptooth. A whole litter out of a nestbox with sides though, sounds odd. They spread out if it's hot, but with edges on a nestbox at 2 days old...they couldn't of got out on their own,or could they?

Anyways...reoccurring death at approx. same age in different litters from the same doe, would probably indicate an illness in doe(or buck) past to offspring or doe not having milk-let down(since they should of been fed on or by day 2).

Good luck and don't give up. We all sometimes have to become private investigators and with help from people here you can possibly narrow it down.


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

countryfied2011 said:


> With horses you can have NI(Neonatal Isoerythrolysis)It occurs when the mother has antibodies against the blood type of the newborn
> 
> http://extension.vetmed.ufl.edu/files/2011/10/Neonatal-Isoerythrolysis-in-the-Horse.pdf
> 
> Do rabbits have anything like that?


They have something like that in humans too. When the mother and fetus have incompatible blood types. Hhhmmm...


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## SherryB (Oct 10, 2012)

Abagee, I apologize for nearly highjacking your post, especially given the tradegy you have experienced. 

Countryfied and Redneckswife and KSA, thanks for info on breeding pairs. I feel more knowledgeable and can make better decisons now.

Back to Abagee's situation...what about flea or worm treatment or a pesticide used too close to the rabbits. Wondering if something could have been absorbed and passed to the kits in the mothers milk. Something in the pellets that shouldnt have been in it. Something the pellets absorbed...? Then passed through the milk.


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

From all the deaths, I would purchase a pregnant doe from different bloodlines, and different rabbitry than your current rabbits. 

Keep the new doe quarantined away from all of your rabbits, well past the standard 30 days. Remember to wash your hands, and keep their food stored in different areas so that they're not contaminated. This won't create a perfectly sterile environment, but it would definitely help. Allow her to kindle, observe the kits, make sure everything is fine. 

Meanwhile, try your current does again. If the kits from the original does die, I would cull them and/or the buck. Hopefully, the new doe's kits survive - if not that should rule out a genetic problem, and so it would be a viral issue, contaminant, poison in the environment.

I would do this just for my own experiment to try to pin point where the problem is, and it's always a plus to have new stock.

If you open up the kits, or one of the does, you might be able to see some abnormalities within their organs.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

The babies are in smaller plastic bin type things so none leave that. I just don't know what it could be. I feed a commercial diet so you would think other people would have the same problem? Could I just have 'dud' does?

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## froebeli (Feb 14, 2012)

abagee_123... do you have pictures? Reading just your answers to threads.. you mention wooden boxes and then plastic boxes. Which do you have? sizes? pictures would be MOST helpful I think. The buck may be the answer, but there seems to be more here we are missing and don't know about. 

Please post photos of your set up to get more help.


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Sherry you asked and you got lots of info. It's up to each individual owner to do what the believe is best for their herd.

I realize I've gave lots of reasons why I don't inbreed but have forgotten to share my experience. Every breeding age rabbit(besides the biter I raised and made stew out of) I have had to cull has been pedigreed(I say this because that's the only way to know for certain who the parents and grandparents were). When examining those pedigrees upon deciding if I should cull, I noticed all of the breeders who I chose to cull also had inbreeding in their pedigrees(inbred parents or grandparents). I (only in my own personal experience) have found that the inbred have fragilier immune systems and more health issues than rabbits conceived without inbreeding. 

abagee, I'd give you a rabbit too if you lived close by. I hate to see new breeders have such a hard time on their 1st breedings. Don't give up:goodjob:


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

We went through something similar earlier this spring. We lost a lot of infants. They were much older - to the point that they were emerging from the nest - then they started dropping, one after another. After I lost 4 or 5, I pulled everyone out of the cage and scrubbed it down hard with novalsan and water *a strong disinfectant). The losses stopped abruptly.

I'm not sure what it was. Didn't seem to affect the adults, but the episode points to a viral/bacterial or parasite illness. We can't help that rats visit the area we keep our hutches.(They can't get inside, but I've seen them scuttle in the vicinity at night), so it's not at all inconcievable that they carried in something. 

You might try a good deep cleansing of nest boxes and hutch. If it's a wooden nest box - maybe switch to something that can be thoroughly disinfected. We use plastic totes - up turned, with an opening cut in the long end. They stay nice and dry, and can be well cleaned. Good luck.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I have no clue how to post pictures. I have wooden boxes making up half of their cages and the other half is wire. When babies come I put in smaller plastic boxes so I know they are all together and aren't getting wet. I have no knowledge of the lineage of the rabbits but I do know that the buck is younger than the does. Could the does be too old to continue breeding? 

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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Oooo I forgot I kept the first dead litter in the freezer! Sounds weird I know but we don't have trash service here so I freezr dead things until trash day and can take the frozen body rather than a decomposing one. I will pull them out and open one up. Also the hutches were built by my husband using new wood so they are the first rabbits in there. Unless they came with a virus...

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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ok I made a newbie mistake and I am nlt sure if this is the key to it all. Instead of putting the female into the males cage I put the male into the females xages. Could that have anything to do with it? I am wracking my brain trying to think of all the options. 

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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

abagee_123 said:


> Ok I made a newbie mistake and I am nlt sure if this is the key to it all. Instead of putting the female into the males cage I put the male into the females xages. Could that have anything to do with it? I am wracking my brain trying to think of all the options.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Homesteading Today mobile app


 The reason for taking the doe to the bucks cage is the doe is very territorial and will usually kill or at best wound a male rabbit if you put him in her cage.


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## froebeli (Feb 14, 2012)

Okay... so my next questions are...how big are the plastic boxes? Lids on them? Are the does having the kits in the plastic boxes or are you moving them into the boxes? What size/variety of rabbits? When you come to the cages after the litters, does the doe jump into the boxes? 

It could still be the buck. 

If you have a cell phone and can text or email your photos to your email and on your computer(assuming your using one) you can save the file and then attach the photo by using the additional options section that says attach file. Follow the instructions there.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

They are about a foot by a foot and a half but are three sided. They have had the babies in there for the most part but I moved a few litters. All the mamas have been very sweet and when I open their cage door they come to greet me. They are california possibly with something else mixed in. Also curious, I bred all four of them at the beginning of september but only one has had a litter.  although to me they all look pregnant with extra double chins.

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## froebeli (Feb 14, 2012)

You've answered all of the questions so far. Now I'm stumped and don't have any more questions to ask. Nothing you mention has shouted "This is it!" 

I'd try a new buck as redneckswife suggested and see what happens.


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## General Brown (Jan 10, 2008)

Are the kits bellies rounded? Be certain that they are recieving milk.

Im just guessing here, but is there any possible chance that they have mastitus? Normally, if the kits are born alive, they will make it. the reason I ask is because there was a comment about looking pregnant and double chins. how much do you feed daily?

Im not a pedigreed breeder by no means, but I see no way that the buck could be at fault here. He has did his end of the agreement...he produced babies. In my opinion, after they are born, its either the doe or management issues.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I didn't notice and abnormal swelling or hard lumps on the does. They are not overweight at all but when they are pregnant their double chins seem to get bigger. The last litter looked completely normal with full bellies. 

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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Mastis, is pretty easy to see if you flip your doe over.
Here's a link to this topic previously

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...frustating-nursing-doe-problem-any-ideas.html

However, I don't know if it happens by day 2(for the kits) unless the doe has been bred before and had this issue previously. 

If there is an illness or disease that he is a carrier of, it can show up in the nestbox (with non-viable kits) but the same can be said for the doe.

Which reminds me, are all the does full blooded sisters? They might all carry a non-visable genetic illness or disease which then might lead to them being the issue instead of the buck. (I'm not saying having all sister breeders is bad, in no way:in fact I kind of like it) I'm just thinking 4 does are a lot of does to keep having dead babies and if the buck isn't at fault...if they have similar dna they might produce the same outcome in the nestbox (ie, non-viable kits).


Totally agree with Frobeli though, if you switch up your breeding pairs (switch out the buck or try buck with different doe) and they all wind up dead again...it would be something other than genetic.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ok here are some pictures. That is the hutch and then a picture of the ladies socializing. The last one is a picture of the last litter. 

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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Okay, I feel like an idiot but I'm gonna ask..Where does the poo go from the top pods?

Is there a tray or something I can't see?

By the way, it's a very nice set-up


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## SherryB (Oct 10, 2012)

Plastic bins? Is this common? Wonder if that has any connection. Dampness? Lack of circulation? Toxicity from something the plastic is giving off?


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

They poop and pee out on the wire and it falls into plastic bins underneath the hutch. If it is really rainy or cold they poop inside but I just clean it out in the morning if so  babies have been dry and they have most of the doors of the hutch open with the wire so I think the circulation is good

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## General Brown (Jan 10, 2008)

Could a draft be an issue? 

I noticed on the first post, that you said it was clear that the does were not taking care of the babies. 
perhaps they just dont have good mothering abilities. How old are the does?
Perhaps they will do better the next round.

Best wishes


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I have no history on these ladies  I found another buck so I am giving them all one more try. I cover the hutch up if its cold or windy and the opening into the wire part is just a circle cut out. 

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## General Brown (Jan 10, 2008)

Could you take a pic of the inside of the cage, from the door that we can see the does behind the wire? Include the nesting box if possible.


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

abagee, if it were me, I would purchase a pregnant doe. Find a doe you like from a breeder, and ask them to breed her upon pick up. Preferably, watch the buck fall over a couple times to make sure she's bred. Like I have said previously, keep her quarantined, even after she's had her kits.

The reason why I say this is, if you go ahead and buy another buck and it turns out there is an issue in terms of virus/pollutant around your current does, then your new buck will also be contaminated. In such a case, you'd have to cull all your does, current buck and the new buck.

Has the water they've been drinking been tested, assuming it's well water?


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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

D'vash, that's a really good point on if it is the does.

Was just thinking..If you get a pregnant doe and wait for her to kindle...then put her with your buck,if it's your buck then she is susceptible now. If it's your does and you wait for a litter and keep bucks to put with yours and it is the does, then those bucks she kindled would also be susceptible.

In either circumstance(whatever you decide to do:shrug:-new buck, buy a pregnant doe) it's really going to be just a process of elimination for you abagee to determine who is causing this and as others have pointed out..if all kits are still dying it might not be something genetic. Say if you bought an outside breeding age pair and all of their kits die-then it's probably environmental or management issue(like a disease or illness that is contagious and can spread to all rabbits on the property that aren't separated).

I guess all those different variables is what makes detectives out of all of us rabbit breeders:viking:

But don't give up, rabbits are a lot of work but they're enjoyable to when things go right:happy:


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Looking at those pictures I posted the ladies have grown quite alot since I took those. I took them when I first got them about 3ish months ago. Here is a picture from this morning if you can tell the difference. Could it be that they were just young lousy mothers? We are also on city water btw.

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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

From what you've described, I would say no - the pattern and number deaths point something other than simply having lousy mothers.


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## bonnie in indiana (May 10, 2002)

My 2 Cents. In the late 70's I started loosing all my newly hatched chicks. I put them in cardboard boxes that I got at work [local University]. They kept dying. I finally figured out that the boxes had contained bottled chemicals and the fumes leached into the cardboard and the fumes that I could not smell killed them. Hard lesson learned.

I would look at the bedding. Are you cages new, if so - move the rabbits to new quarters. Are they breathing to much urine ammonia. THINK OUTSIDE the BOX.

Just my 2 cents.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

They are new cages I wonder if the wood was treated with some thing. It came from home depot but I will check with my husband. That would make sense if it were formaldehyde fumes or something similar. Thank you for your input everybody!!!!

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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

Treated lumber maybe...hmmm..
The state of California has strict regulations due to continued handling is supposed to make you sterile. However, those warnings are just being issued now and tons of people have handled the stuff(my old dad included -job superintendent over construction developments and I'm here:grin

Don't know where they got these studies or if their true or if it crosses to species. My rabbits chew on their wood a lot. I haven't used treated where they could reach to chew..so I don't know.I know they are treated with a chemical process.

I know there are a lot of diseases that are transmitted via rabbit urine(E.Cuculi is excreted from the kidneys out in the urine for about a month.) or feces.The only reason I mention this is that I noticed in your pictures it's possible for the top does to "rain" on the ones on bottom and then drop into the excrement bin.

Let me say, none of this might have anything to do with your does or issues though.

Treated wood will usually have a green cast to it and an odd smell(which should help you determine if yours is). The wood is meant to stand up to a lot so it won't age as quickly as non-treated. Don't know if this would influence your specific issues though.

Good luck abagee, by the way cute kid:thumb:


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I have ruled out e cunculi as the symptoms are all neurological amd my buns don't have any of them. There is also no treatment for that so I would have to cull all of them. 

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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

I'm glad to hear it, I bought 1 bred Lionhead doe last winter that had it and it was horrible(I noticed it the day after I bought it this "episode"). I'd never seen a rabbit run in circles and fall on it's side, drag it's legs and then have seizures(of course it had full-blown last stage symptoms). It was awful. Still waiting on my promised refund. It was the only pregnant doe I've ever culled.

It sounds like your eliminating your possible reasons.I think most of us never thought we'd have to be detectives or make shift "vets" for our herds but Homesteaders are some pretty knowledgable people-welcome aboard:bandwagon:


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ok I scrubbed everything with vinegar and it is drying while the ladies are playing. I checked every mouth and genital as well and there are no lumps bumps or sores. I checked the wood and it is untreated so that shouldn't be a problem either. One of the babies is defrosting so I will open it up today and see if I can find anything abnormal. Ugh...I wish this was easy

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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

So I found these little black dots. They were only in one of the hutches though. At first I thought it was from the hay, they look like seeds. I just feed timothy and pellets along with the occasional fruit and veg. Could this be the answer to my baby woes?

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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Nevermind it is from the hay :/

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## OakHollowBoers (Jun 26, 2013)

If those are in your hay... Where do you store your hay? Because those look like mouse droppings. Could also be from large cockroaches, if you have such there. But that is what mouse droppings look like.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

I have not read all the post but Wanted to comment on this.




redneckswife said:


> Okay, I feel like an idiot but I'm gonna ask..Where does the poo go from the top pods?
> 
> Is there a tray or something I can't see?
> 
> By the way, it's a very nice set-up


 



abagee_123 said:


> They poop and pee out on the wire and it falls into plastic bins underneath the hutch.


 
Not that this is your problem but I would not want my rabbits "below" to be getting pee and poop on them from "above". You have a nice looking rabbit hutch but this is a bad flaw in the design. Also if the closed in area has a wood floor that is not good when it comes to cleaning. The rabbit pee will soak into the wood making sanitizing it impossible--a piece of vinyl on the wood might help some but then all the pee will go to the edge/cracks.JMO


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## SherryB (Oct 10, 2012)

Yes I couldnt see how there was the plastic tubs under the top row. And I agree that if the floor is not all wire that its an issue just waiting to cause you big problems.
But back to the hay. I read somewhere and I thought it was on this forum that someone was having issues with mice or rat poop being in the hay when they bought it and their rabbits were dying. Cant you determine if those black specs are animal feces? Those specs should not be in your hay.

I am still wondering too about those plastic nest boxes. I would think condensation would build up. One of my last litters the does had pulled lots of fur but she also carried an absolute ton of hay in it. I reached in that box a few days later and it was hot and streamy in there. Way too damp. I immediately took the nest box out and got rid of all that damp stuff and replaced it with dry. I cant imagine they would have survived in that damp mess.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

Half of the hutch is wooden, and the outside is all wire. I haven't noticed any urine on the rabbits on the bottom, and they don't urinate on the inside of the boxes. I have a new doe, who is inside the house and will not come in contact with the others. I plan on breeding her to my buck to rule him out. Also, the specks are seeds, not sure where they came from this bale was from a new supplier I haven't used before. I will let you know how the new doe does!

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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

SherryB said:


> I am still wondering too about those plastic nest boxes.


I have been using plastic nest boxes from the start, and have never had any issues.


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

> I am still wondering too about those plastic nest boxes. I would think condensation would build up. One of my last litters the does had pulled lots of fur but she also carried an absolute ton of hay in it. I reached in that box a few days later and it was hot and streamy in there. Way too damp


Sherry, you have humidity there, if the kits were peeing in there, or hay had enough moisture to begin with(still green) the heat from the hay would cause it to be hot and steamy. 

I would think condensation would depend on location(heat and humidity) and the moisture content in the hay.


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## Terry G (May 30, 2013)

could they have froze, it looks like snow in the pic. the snow along with a wire door and a three sided box maybe they simply got too cold, I tend to look for the simple solutions first.


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

The wooden boxes are actually solid, the only openings are the door and a hole to the outside. The first litters were born at the end of summer as well.

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## Terry G (May 30, 2013)

If the wind can blow through the door and the open side of the nest box they can get chilled on cool evenings. I'm no expert and believe me I have had my problems with Rabbits and I also have mine in Hutches with wood and wire floors and even though I had 3'x3' wood houses I still ended up putting regular wood nest boxes in the wood hutch. I don't think its the buck or the does thats just to many to lose without something else going on. just trying to help.


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

The nest the does made looked really nice and warm; lots of fur. Especially considering it was summer, I would say that unless the doe had urinated inside the nest or it had somehow become wet, chilling wouldn't be a cause. Kits do a good job of pilling on top of each-other to keep warm, along with the aid of the fur and hay. 

I am also curious about the black stuff in the hay. Mice love hay and straw! It might do some good to set up a few traps around the rabbit pens and where you store your feed. Just make sure the rabbits can't get to it!


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

If those ARE rodent droppings then Iâd definitely advise a very thorough cleansing with a strong disinfectant. Which is the reason I like the plastic totes. We too have used them for years and have never had a problem â though they are scrubbed clean before each anticipated litter. We live in a very wet and clammy climate, but have not had humidity issues â though we use straw, not hay. It has a better insulating factor and resists becoming soggy (as does hay). In the 6 years and 10-12 litters, weâve had difficulty only twice - once during a freak deep freeze when only one kit survived from a litter of only two (we helped hand raise it to maturity), and the recent unexplained losses I posted about. Disinfecting stopped those losses immediately. Iâm not sure how strong vinegar is against some of the sterner microbes. â 2 cents!


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## abagee_123 (Oct 14, 2013)

I actually don't use strong disinfectants, I am pregnant and stay away from chemicals plus I don't want those soaking into the wood. They were seeds in the hay, not sure what exactly from.

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## redneckswife (May 2, 2013)

abagee, could hubby disinfect for you?

I use a garden sprayer(1 gallon water/1 gallon disinfectant{I do use bleach})-truly the easiest for me to get a good even coating of disinfectant quickly on the hole housing(minus nestbox,feeders and waterers which I submerge in my disinfectant for 30 minutes). Don't forget to let it set on the housing for 15 min. before rinsing.I love to use my faucet sprayer on the hose, it kind of gives more pressure to the rinsing.

If you are worried about those chemicals or disinfectants soaking into the wood, try to time your cleaning to a time of day when the sun will be on the wood or hutch. Drying in the sun for 2 hours will evaporate any left over residue removing it from your wood.

I would definitely trade hubby a homemade cake(or pie) for hutch disinfecting duty if it was me. Regardless of what the issue is with these rabbits, they do need to be disinfected to lower incidents of future problems.

Congrats on your baby & I'm frustrated for you-the first breedings should be fun:smack


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## SherryB (Oct 10, 2012)

Abagee, go to barbi browns bunnies website and look at the iodine sanitizer she sells. Read about its ability to sanitized. Pretty convincing and it might be safe to use while you are pregnant. They are very nice to work with too. You could ask her about its safety while pg.


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