# Help with mystery



## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

I have learned SO much about LGDs from ease-dropping on your posts. Thank you. But I have another ,horrible problem I need help with. I have a 2YO Akbash/Anatolian,Ethel who does a great job, but needed help. I was given a year+ old Akbash/Pyrenees female, on her way to the pound.She was a rescue because the owner moved to town and couldn't keep her. She had been a house pet until she was 6 MO, then she was taken to a ranch. I was told that there were other dogs-,2 pit bulls,that she got along with as well as other livestock. I took her because she was such a sweet, happy dog, and young enough to possibly make into a goat dog. From the first, she was extremely submissive to EVERYTHING. She is afraid of the goats, but just avoids them, no aggressive behavior.Toward our other dogs-(an alpha-ish neutered German Short-hair, a 13 year old Westie mix, and a very meek lab) she just ignored them in a meek manner. To the Akbash, she rolls over on her belly anytime Ethel looks at her. There have been NO fights. She is not food agressive at all. NOW FOR THE STORY:3 weeks ago, we came home from work and the lab had been torn up, all on the rear quarters; she was running from this attack. In many places, down to the bone. In all my years working with dogs and as a vet tech, I've only once seen that degree of damage.They sewed up what they could, about 60 stitches, and left many large places open to drain.We initially thought it was Bella-the new dog- because she had blood on her. No injuries, just blood on her hair. But we talked ourselves out of it, watching her behavior with the group and because she is so incredibly meek. But 12/23, I ran to the store, gone about 1 hour. I returned to find my Westie dying, torn apart-ear gone ,broken ribs sticking through her chest which was ripped open.She died minutes later. Once again, Bella had blood on her,on her chin and chest.No other dog did.All the evidence seems to point to Bella, but we can't believe it because she is so "puppy" and so submissive. The Akabsh was out in a pasture, with the goats, and the rest of the dogs were locked in the farmyard (2 acres) Something else could have gotten in-5 foot fence with electric at the bottom- but it would be hard.There was no evidence, except the blood on Bella. My experience "reading " dogs says she isn't guilty, but all the evidence points to her. Is she is attacking dogs that she's accepted for 3 months? I don't feel I can trust her with goats either, since I can't figure her out.What happened? I want to be fair, she seems to be a very good dog. But I don't want this to happen again. Sorry so long. Help please.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Dogs act different when they are in a new home. It takes them a while before they think of it as their home. When they do they may decide to become the alpha dog.
Some dogs also act different when people are around.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

in order to feel guilt you have to know what you did was wrong.
do to the somewhat randomness of the violence you may want to get the dog checked for a brain tumor or other health issues that spark random violence.
also even though it's called spaniel rage syndrome, it can occur in other breeds. it causes random but extremely driven attacks.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Well, having oned Pyrs & 1 pyr/anatolian cross, I've learned never to underestimate these dogs. Sweet teddy bears one minute & raging maniac the next when threatened.

It's hard to say. It does seem as though this dog is guilty, 2x at the scene does not look good. BUT it is the nature of these dogs to clean up blood & wounds & things so things may not always be as they appear. 

We can't make the decision for you if she is guilty or not. Her appearing "meek" could simply be she's not an alpha, is submissive, but when riled will react. 

My suggestion: go with your gut, but try to get her in a more confined area so if something does happen you know it was either her or it wasn't. Did you check her mouth & claws for blood, hair, any clue that she was the aggressor?

I would want to be confident it was her before putting her down/making a decision on her. Also as someone else stated, she may not be showing her true colors and you could be reading her wrong.

I don't know what I would do....2 beloved pets hurt/killed is tough. I'm sorry this happened.

HF


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

First, let me offer my sincere condolences to you for your loss....

Now.... :soap: this is why, why why I am SO against running LGD's with or near any kinds of 'pet' dogs or non-LGD breeds.

LGD's CAN tell the difference. I even talk about this briefly on my website, at risk of sounding like a grump....I have seen with my own eyes how my LGD's will calmly accept my neighbor's LGD's. But their yapping nasty little pet Yorkie and Corgi cross would be sandwich meat if they ever, EVER come under or some how through my fence. 

I know of very few 'gray area' situations where an LGD really, safely, honestly gets along with pet dogs particularly pets who are allowed anywhere near, or in, the livestock.

Although I would not say for sure it is her, you need to scour fencelines and really really look for hair, blood tracks etc. to eliminate her entirely. Akbash, depending on line, can be kick tail LGD's and fierce fighters....yes they can go from hot to cold in a nano second....so can many other LGD breeds. 

Although what may have happened could have been an intruder, the fact that the Akbash didn't attack intruder would make me think it is her.

Another reason why, noeskimo, I am not a fan at all of rescues. NO WAY. Sorry but that is my feeling. You may as well close your eyes and put your hand in a meat grinder and see what comes out! Its a gamble you do not really, REALLY KNOW...what you bring home. Do you? Oh the shelters might tell you anything...remember, its their job to place those dogs! You took a chance on this dog. Could be she is more than you thought she'd be. My Kangal can be sweet ....grin.... she also almost killed one of my Pyr females. Don't ever underestimate what an LGD can do. And this only happens when you are gone. And were your pet dogs chasing stock? Were they up to mischief? You will never know. Again sorry for your loss. I would not leave her alone in stock until you've been able to observe her over more time AND watch what your pet dogs are up to...they are not always the little innocent lambs we all think they are. They know and watch for when you leave too. When the cat's away....the mice may play.


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

In retrospect, I should have been wiser, but her former ownerssaid she was great with all dogs and cats, she showed no signs of being otherwise and after 3 months trying to get her interested in goats/guarding, I had given up and decided to look for her another home as a house pet.So I allowed her to hang with the pets. My dogs don't go near the goats, nor do they chase. I have worked long and hard to teach them their rules. I don't know if she would be safe as a pet, but "they" said she was a great one and that's certainly what she wants to be. After such a long time without seeing any change or interest on her part, I had decided she was a pet.And yes, I am a pushover, I shouldn't have taken her, but I felt like 3 months of careful supervision without incident made her trustworthy. How long should I have waited?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

noeskimo said:


> How long should I have waited?


The answer to this question lies with each individual dog. Could be 6 months, 9, it depends on the dog.

I have to admit I also would have laxed at 3 months of good behavior, though I know know know better. 

We learn as we go, unfortunately the learning curve can be steep.

HF


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

It sure sounds like she is the aggressor. So sorry to hear. Three months should have been enough time to get an idea on her tendencies. On the other hand she is maturing, and potentially changing the pecking order with the other dogs. Instead of little somewhat civil spats, she might just go all out and do damage. You would think she would be showing signs other than if you are there or not. You could try to trigger her aggression to see how she reacts by testing her in different situation(This is at a big risk for you and other animals involved). If you can see why and how she reacts then you will get a better idea how to handle her and/or know if she can be placed in another home. You just can't let her go without knowing for sure if she is a danger or not. Don't blame yourself!! You had now way of knowing how she would be. I once took in an Anatolian female 9 months old from a pet home. She was wonderful and took right to sheep. You just never know. Good luck and hope you get her figured out.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

at two years shes becoming mentally mature therefor she will try to climb the pecking order ladder especially if shes not spayed, its just the nature of the beast always trying to go up in the world, from wolves to yorkies. 

If shes not spayed spay her but dont trust her, kennel her or whatever you need to do, me personally I would take her as too much of a liability for me to own her and I would do the right thing. 
I dont see this as a mystery at all, but at least she seems to respect your authority otherwise she would do it when you are around.. as far as the stock can you afford to find out if its just a dog thing? If nothing else has been killed then its possible.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Spaying is not going to make a difference. I wouldn't waste the money if that dog's future is unknown.


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

I am sure that I would never trust her around my livestock, or with their guardian, Ethel. But since she's always been a pet, and apparently, has done well as one,would she be safe to rehome as a pet if there were no other dogs there?She's happy, obedient and stays on the front porch, if allowed out (she's in "seg" now-I teach at a prison ).


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

if you place her as a pet, and the home has small children, whats to say when the adults look the other way she wont attack them? thats not a risk i would take with this dog,


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

PuT her in an enclosed pen with a chicken and see what she does.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

KSALguy said:


> if you place her as a pet, and the home has small children, whats to say when the adults look the other way she wont attack them? thats not a risk i would take with this dog,


I had a similar experience with a rehomed Anatolian. Prior owners lied which didn't help, but I should have trusted my gut. She was so submissive to me, the kids, etc, but she was DETERMINED to kill my male Pyr. She could jump up and catch birds out of the air and kill them so EXTREMELY athletic and capable. I ended up having to put her down for the reason quoted above. When she decided to attack, she didn't care who or what was in the way. Had an offer of a child-free, other pet-free home days after we put her down, but in retrospect I'm glad we didn't do that. There was just no way to guarantee that she wouldn't come across another pet or child once out of our hands just like we couldn't prevent everything from going into her pen. It's a horribly difficult position to be in, and one reason I'll never have another LGD despite them being my all time favorite dogs. Not a risk I'm willing to live with.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

If she did that much damage to the other dogs then I would worry that she has no inhibition, and does not know when to stop(like when the other dog submits). What if she was in the house and you tripped over her one day scaring her? How long do you think it could take to stop her and get her off of you if she did freak out? She could very well have had some issues growing up that causes her to flip out. If you did consider placing her it would need to be with somebody experienced at dog training and with full knowledge of what she has done. Another thing is just because she seems submissive does not mean she can't be dangerous. I've seen dogs that had been corrected for going after sheep that just couldn't seem to help themselves. They would get tense and worried before the attack, then as soon as they made the attempt, they would shut down and go hide.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

It' tough to do the right thing when a dog is dangerous to it's surroundings. That is why the rescues are full of LGDs. 

I'm sorry, I would put her down, if you are sure it is her.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Just because a dog is dangerous around other animals does not mean they are the same way around humans.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

yes pancho that is true, but it is also true that you never know for sure untill its too late, if the full history in all honesty were known one could make a better assumption but sence this is a dog that is now in its Third home, and the two previous owners may or may not have been fully honest in what the dog is known to do and been exposed too, this type of action is not something i would take litely, I would have to at the very least test this dog extensively to know what works and what doesnt with her, and if she still "mysteriously" harms anything not a threat then i would have to put her down, "mystery" does not make a trustworthy animal,


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I am sorry for your lose and troubles. But in all fairness IMO if you have lurked here long enough on this board you should have known that you may have been asking for trouble bringing an older LGD that is unknown and not penning her up and watching her closely allowing her to acclimate herself to your and your animals. 

I do not allow my pets to be with my LGD's. They only see and smell them through the fence. I raised them from puppies. If I were to ever bring home an older LGD, I would kennel it near the livestock and work on any possible personal behavior issues.
Your new LGD was accustomed to the previous owners and pets, not yours. Also she was just given away. Now she must start over with new owners, pets and livestock. I would pen her and work with her, alot of work. 
Sorry if I offend anyone it's just my motto:

But if you did the crime, now put in the time to fix it....LOL, I dont believe in putting dogs down unless they turn into cujo...


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

Fowler:thank-you for your honesty, but since I'm trying to learn from this, I have questions. I watched, worked and trained her for 3 months with no sign of aggression. She was kept by herself, unless with me for all but the last 3 weeks.When out of her pen, adjacent to goat's night paddock, she was on leash for the first month, then on a dragrope, with me, for the 2nd month. She was oblivious to everything but me. She absolutely refused to have anything to do with the goats. The final month,she would set at the fenceline, looking at the house and cry, or she would go to the farthest edge of the paddock and stay by herself. So, after the 3 months with no change,no acceptance of her job, I decided she was a pet, and that the months of being a "housedog" had made her one,not an LGD. I then put her in the yard,away from the real LGD and the stock. So what do I need to do different, besides not taking in any more rescues? I was looking for rough stock treatment, or aggression. Should the lack of anything at all-the ignoring-been a signal? She just acts very puppy, but only to people. Everything else-dogs,stock-horses, donkeys, calves and goats is not acknowledged.I can usually read dogs, but I really missed this one.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Quite a few years ago, I sold a 13 month old male Kangal to a goat man. He penned him with a Akbash female for breeding. She always dominated the male. After being with him for 2 months, she killed the male. I was extremely upset after the man informed me of this, and how she had previously attacked every dog on his place.

A dog that aggressive should not have been bred in the first place.

some dogs are to aggressive. Being raised under different conditions, she might have been perfect. But each circumstance brings different outcomes. 
The LGDs are very capable dogs, as they have to be. This comes with the potential for such behaviors. 

Sorry for your losses.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

noeskimo said:


> Fowler:thank-you for your honesty, but since I'm trying to learn from this, I have questions. I watched, worked and trained her for 3 months with no sign of aggression. She was kept by herself, unless with me for all but the last 3 weeks.When out of her pen, adjacent to goat's night paddock, she was on leash for the first month, then on a dragrope, with me, for the 2nd month. She was oblivious to everything but me. She absolutely refused to have anything to do with the goats. The final month,she would set at the fenceline, looking at the house and cry, or she would go to the farthest edge of the paddock and stay by herself. So, after the 3 months with no change,no acceptance of her job, I decided she was a pet, and that the months of being a "housedog" had made her one,not an LGD. I then put her in the yard,away from the real LGD and the stock. So what do I need to do different, besides not taking in any more rescues? I was looking for rough stock treatment, or aggression. Should the lack of anything at all-the ignoring-been a signal? She just acts very puppy, but only to people. Everything else-dogs,stock-horses, donkeys, calves and goats is not acknowledged.I can usually read dogs, but I really missed this one.


I'm so sorry. It sounds like you did everything you could. Most on here will tell you to put her down. I cannot  If it were me in my situtation, I would let her just guard the yard. I have an old lab that lives in the house and only comes out to use the bathroom. But my place is sit up to not allow other dogs to cross over to different paddocks unless I open gates, even then they do not have access to the yard. I wish I could help you, or give you some encouragement that she would most likely be great at guarding the yard? Maybe? I would even set-up a temporary kennel next to the chickens and make her stay there with help from me to teach her one job, if that is even possible, I have learned through the years to never say never...LOL but in the end it's your decision....good luck noeskimo


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

First of all shying away from everything is not submissive, and you made a huge mistake in not recognizing that. Shying away is probably more terrified of everything. And that is a seriously dangerous condition. Fight or flight. remove the ability to flee and there is only one thing left. 
As for the cause. This sounds to me like a dog that was removed from it's mother to early. I have seen it before many times. It has been shown in university studies. Premature removal from the mother sets up the animal for a permanent panic reaction to any sort of stresses. they never learn to cope. A panicked animal is dangerous. As you have now found out. Hard way to learn the lesson. Btu a timid cowering dog is not cute any more than a snarling growling one is.


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

She's not timid, she doesn't cower. She just seems to be oblivious to any other animals. Ethel, the Akbash, has tried to engage her in play-play bow, tail wagging etc. and Bella seems to have no idea what she's doing.She lays there, looks at her and then rolls over on her back, wagging her tail until Ethel goes away.I, myself had wondered if she had been bottle-raised or weaned too young and just doesn't know the "dog" rules.She acts like a happy, goofy puppy to humans and ignores others, like she doesn't think she's a dog.If she's terrified, I'm missing it.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. You can't know the rescue dog caused your grief but adding up all the clues would be enough for me to either return the dog to the rescue if that's the contract or euthanasia. Every once and a while life sucks. Sorry you're there with this problem. The dog may have been ruined by its previous owners, all you know is it isn't acting as you expect or want and is very likely the cause of your problems and losses. You were its second chance that's more than most get. It wouldn't have lasted the night here killing a Westie and I truly hate the idea of putting any dog to sleep. 

This LGD system would seem to me to be one where you follow good advice from knowledgeable people or not at all. We're very fortunate to have good people here on HT who give us their time and advice. Considering its value its oddly free.

Take care and I'm very sorry for your losses.


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## lockhart76 (Jul 31, 2011)

In the case of LGD's killing stock or dogs, often the evidence is there but as we are in the situation we refuse to see it. As an impartial reader of your thread, it seems pretty obvious that your new dog attacked your pets. Remove emotion and you would likely agree with me. What are the odds that two attacks would occur after the new dog was introduced? And if a LGD attacked pets, it would likely be pretty onesided, so don't think the LGD would be covered in blood, hair, etc. Not to mention that they would probably clean themselves. We had two pet Irish Wolfhounds that jumped out of their kennel at night and raided some sheep we had in the corral...five dead or wounded. Although the evidence pointed to them my wife and I refused to believe it b/c of our attachment to them and the 'lack of blood' on them. Next night the same thing occurred. We locked the Wolfhounds in the barn and guess what, no injured sheep. They are now locked up even tighter at night and we have not had an issue since. [I would have shot them but then my wife would have shot me.] It is a case of Ockham's Razor: the simplest solution is often the correct one.
Very sorry to hear of your losses. If I were you I would put the dog down. Sadly, I too do not advocate rescue dogs for guardian purposes. Adoption for a pet, perhaps, but not for a job.
Good luck with your decision. Again, sorry about your losses, I have been there.


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