# good starter "sniper" type rifle



## randolphj (Feb 24, 2013)

Hello all, I'm looking for advice on a good starter long range rifle I only shoot pistols and ar's so not looking to spend 3 g's on a first bolt gun. any suggestions?


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## randolphj (Feb 24, 2013)

Btw, I have been eying a Mossberg .308 night train so looking for something along those lines ie. something with a bipod and scope.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

It's hard to beat a Remington 700 Sendero


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's hard to beat a Remington 700 Sendero


I second the Remington, but suggest an LTR.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

I have ahoy a few and for a low cost 110 savage is great.
Understand that the rifle is only the biscuit pan to a great biscuit.
Tigger job
Lap barrel
Stock float
Measurement to you
Scope lap
Instruction
Shoot, shoot, shoot


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

I've heard good things about the Savage as well. I've got a Savage 17HMR and that thing is a tac driver. However, for a centerfire I'd go with a Remington 700. There's so much aftermarket availablity for it that it can be just about anything you want out of a bolt gun.


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

I love my 700 chambered in 308. It has all the bells and whistles including the removable magazine set up. I have tried it out to 900 meters a few times and been happy with the results. Also have a few 1903a3's that we have hunted with and target shoot with that are fairly cheap to find sporterized and shoot excellently.

Picked up a Mossberg bolt in 223 before the new round of craziness that utilizes ar mags. Out of the box I was impressed. Bought it for some of the multi gun comps so I could have a cheaper day that didn't beat me as bad as firing 50-100 rounds of 308 or 30-06.
I have only tried it out to 600 meters, and it was a tack driver. Of course I have used ar-15' s off the shelf out to 500 meters from most positions fairly accurately with open sites.
Guess it all comes down to what you are looking to do with the gun and how much you want to invest initially and/or add on down the road.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Usingmyrights said:


> I've heard good things about the Savage as well. I've got a Savage 17HMR and that thing is a tac driver. However, for a centerfire I'd go with a Remington 700. There's so much aftermarket availablity for it that it can be just about anything you want out of a bolt gun.


This I correct...the Remi action is a base that our military uses...all kinds f thing you can get for it. The savage for the price is great gun, just not as refined as the Remington.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Savage for out of the box accuracy. Remington if you are going to customize. Most people can't shoot as accurately as their weapon is capable of anyway.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Gosh I think my son grabbed a .308 for a good price at Cabelas last year...camo stock even! 

.223 is ok not so impressive..... .250 savage is good. .270---.280 actually shoots flatter I think but kicks like a mule.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

How far do you want to shoot? the 223 is good for about 600 meters but to shoot more you must go with a 308 or 30-06 for at least 1000 yards more. If you want to go as fare as 1 mile the 50 caliber is the only way to go.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

One of the local hunters regularly takes deer at long ranges using a .22-250. I wonder how that would work as a sniper round. Another who used to hunt here regularly liked the same caliber for deer.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

My vote is a .338 Lapua...


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## randolphj (Feb 24, 2013)

wannabechef said:


> My vote is a .338 Lapua...


I really like the 338 lapua platform but I'm afraid there are no 338's in my price range


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

randolphj said:


> I really like the 338 lapua platform but I'm afraid there are no 338's in my price range


Or even the cartridges themselves!


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## randolphj (Feb 24, 2013)

Exactly the 308 Mossberg comes with a muzzle break a scope and bipod so its a complete package for under 700 think its the one for me...


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Iâve got 2 rifles that would be considered âprecisionâ rifles; a REM700 XCR Tactical in .223, and a heavy barreled REM700 in .300Win. I probably shoot the little .223 ten times as much as any centerfire rifle I own (16) simply because; itâs cheaper to load for. With 69 grain SMKs at just shy of 3000 FPS it holds well out to 500 yards even in wind. The 20â heavy fluted barrel doesnât add too much weight, but it still would not be my choice to lug around all day. 

We were out at my place yesterday shooting from 100-500 yards. I was shooting the .300 (seldom) and the .223 (lots) and a friend of mine was shooting his Nosler 300 WSM sporter with Luepold 3-10X Scope with custom BDC dial. He had no problem lasing he distances and getting 1st round hits on a 18â x 9â 2/3rds IDPA steel silhouette. This was with a standard "deer rifle" and decent scope.

IMHO, donât skimp on glass, at distance, good optics pay big dividends. I gladly pay 2-3 times the price of a rifle on the optics. As the saying goes, âyou canât hit, what you canât seeâ

IF youâre concerned about the rifleâs cost, Iâd definitely shy away from anything larger than a .308. Even with reloading the bigger cartridges are expensive as they burn through quite a bit more powder, my .308 load burns twice the powder as much as my .223 and youâll only get about 100 rounds of .300Win from a pound of powder compared to 280 of .223. 

With a modern bolt action, decent scope, and known distances, LR shooting is all about wind, and that takes practice. Generally, the less expensive the ammo, the more practice youâll be able to get in. 

Chuck


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

Old Vet - there's other options besides the 50BMG for a mile plus shots. Look at some of the Nitro Express rounds. There's one that makes the 50 look like a 308 when compared to the 50. Hopefully I described that right. There's pictures out there comparing them.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

My long range rifle is a Remington 700 in 7mm Magnum. Seems to work for me and the cost wasn't excessive. Completely agree that the glass is just as important if not more important than the rifle. If it comes down to it, buy a little cheaper rifle like a Savage and get better glass.


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## BMCC (Oct 2, 2012)

You couldn't go wrong with a Remington 700 in either 270 or 30-06 caliber.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

.308. Cheap and plentiful ammunition, many different weight bullets if you reload, can be used to hunt any game in this country and not bad shooting several times because it has relatively low recoil.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

a sniper rifle does not make a "sniper"

are you willing to do reload testing for best powder/bullet/velocity, barrel land to bullet distance and practice 3000 to 5000 rounds a year burning out a barrel a year. figure $0.12 a round for a replacement barrel or set back if there is a good smith around.

are you willing to learn wind estimating and ranging.

if using scope, a guide line is whatever $ you put in the rifle, put that much in the scope. (that hurt, didn't it)

savages are the best buy for off the shelf accuracy. or anyother good rifle plus about $800 worth of smithing. as others have said 223 for 600 or less, 308 for 1000 yard, forget the 50 cal stuff unless you have deep pockets to purchase 3000 rounds a year.

as a coach. i'll take a fair shot that is willing to practice over an excellant shot that will not or cannot practice anyday, and the practice shooter will win.

and for the record, shoot NRA or CMP matches to earn an expert rating or higher in highpower. all else is just talk.


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## MD Steader (Mar 11, 2010)

Might want to look at this Model 700â¢ SPSâ¢ Tactical AACÂ®-SD, I came across an article on making a cheaper long range gun. It comes with a heavy barrel thats threaded for attachments. And it has the X-Mark pro adjustable trigger. Starts at 833 MSRP. The article threw about 1200 in optics and accesorries on it but this platform in .308 with a bipod is a good start.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Most of your name brand rifles are going to be good to go... if you want long range sub MOA groupings, your going to have to go beyond just the gun, and find the right ammunition that your particular gun likes. My BIL spent six months finding a tack driving load for one of his rifles... handloaded dozens of different bullets, primers, and powders, keeping records on everything... now, he only goes with that exact recipe.

Of course, you can buy MOA rifles, or even sub, but you pay for it. I wouldn't spend 3 grand for a bolt... I might on an AR-10, if I could get sub MOA at 500 yards.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

I dont know if they still are, but Tikka (owned by Seiko) is guaranteed 1" groups at 100yds. They're more of a hunting platform, and 100yds isnt long range for a rifle by any means, but theyre good guns and can be had for around the price of a Rem700.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm pretty happy with my Remington 700 in 30.06. Got it at a garage sale a few years ago, think I paid about $375 for it with sling and scope. Bet I couldn't get close to that price as a buyer now. Shoots straight, the scope isn't an expensive one, but seems pretty accurate. I do need to have the stock shortened up a hair on it, though - I'm sure it'd be more comfortable to shoot, especially with a better butt pad on it.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

As far as "starter" I believe if you want to do very accurate long range shooting, you might as well go all out and get you a very good gun to start with... It will make learning a LOT easier than trying to learn around a "make do" kind of weapon,... 

A Remington 700 built to M40A1 specs would cost you close to the 4 grand mark, BUT, you'll never be buying another long range gun again... You'll also know that when you're not hitting your target at 600 yards, it's you, not the gun... 

I've got a buddy that has one of these, and once you hold it, you'll be amazed at the the quality it oozes... I'm hoping to shoot it soon, since he keeps saying he needs to bring it out to my place to sight it... http://www.gaprecision.net/mil-spec-rifles/m40a1.html I've been around a LOT of guns, but this one was almost mesmerizing... 

Now with that said... I've got two guns I am VERY happy with, and they are what would be considered very oddball sized rounds here in the US, but in Europe, they have a decent following, and are used for long range shooting.. 

I've got a 6.5x55 Mauser that will blow you away with how tight of group it will keep at over 200 yards with open sights.. This one has been sporterized and a lot of work was done on it for accuracy by someone that really knew what they were doing.. ... That round when loaded for accuracy is a pin driver.. I've also found the same to be true with the 7mm Mauser round.. .Their flight characteristics are phenomenal for an old military round.. It was so good, the 30-06 round was based on it, and Remington had to purchase the rights from Mauser to make them... 

Just giving you some things to think about and research...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

wannabechef said:


> .308. Cheap and plentiful ammunition


Not any more.. It's gone WAY up in price, and not so easy to find... 

I'm still waiting for Magtech to send me back some 308 to replace a couple of bad lots I had.. They said they had to wait until they can get them into their headquarters from the factory to send me them...


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

my husband cleaned this guy's furnace a few months ago...for you real long rangers:

http://www.bulzeyepro.com/


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Why do you want to shoot something a long way off? Do you want to pick off zombies before they get close enough to do you harm?

You might look at used. I picked up a lightly used Browning A-bolt Medallion with BOSS for $500. It is certainly a cut above the Remington 700 or the Savage. The barrel is floating so the expansion and contraction of the stock doesn't impact the accuracy. The BOSS is a combination muzzle brake to reduce recoil and an adjustable weight on the end of the barrel to dampen vibration. It really makes a difference in the accuracy. I also tested it with different reloads and found one the gun likes. The gun club I belonged to has a 200 meter range I tested it on. The gun now shoots better than I do. LOL 

I also like the beautiful wood grain and the engraving and inlay on the metal. It's a very good looking gun.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> Not any more.. It's gone WAY up in price, and not so easy to find...
> 
> I'm still waiting for Magtech to send me back some 308 to replace a couple of bad lots I had.. They said they had to wait until they can get them into their headquarters from the factory to send me them...


Yes, not now...but generally it is.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Nimrod said:


> Why do you want to shoot something a long way off? Do you want to pick off zombies before they get close enough to do you harm?
> 
> You might look at used. I picked up a lightly used Browning A-bolt Medallion with BOSS for $500. It is certainly a cut above the Remington 700 or the Savage. The barrel is floating so the expansion and contraction of the stock doesn't impact the accuracy. The BOSS is a combination muzzle brake to reduce recoil and an adjustable weight on the end of the barrel to dampen vibration. It really makes a difference in the accuracy. I also tested it with different reloads and found one the gun likes. The gun club I belonged to has a 200 meter range I tested it on. The gun now shoots better than I do. LOL
> 
> I also like the beautiful wood grain and the engraving and inlay on the metal. It's a very good looking gun.


Not knocking your Browning, but I'd put my Remington LTR or PSS up against it any day of the week, both of which have floating barrels and aluminum inside the composite stocks to stiffen them.

The big thing about Remington is the amount of accessories that can be put on that action.


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## randolphj (Feb 24, 2013)

Nimrod said:


> Why do you want to shoot something a long way off? Do you want to pick off zombies before they get close enough to do you harm?
> 
> You might look at used. I picked up a lightly used Browning A-bolt Medallion with BOSS for $500. It is certainly a cut above the Remington 700 or the Savage. The barrel is floating so the expansion and contraction of the stock doesn't impact the accuracy. The BOSS is a combination muzzle brake to reduce recoil and an adjustable weight on the end of the barrel to dampen vibration. It really makes a difference in the accuracy. I also tested it with different reloads and found one the gun likes. The gun club I belonged to has a 200 meter range I tested it on. The gun now shoots better than I do. LOL
> 
> I also like the beautiful wood grain and the engraving and inlay on the metal. It's a very good looking gun.


You hit that one on the head, that's exactly why I want one.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You hit that one on the head, that's exactly why I want one.


What do you consider "a long way off"?


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## randolphj (Feb 24, 2013)

I can't imagine more than 600 yards


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Where I live the country is so forested that a 300 yd shot would only happen in a powerlined area


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Wannabe,

I looked up the Remington LTR and they go for about a grand. The OP was looking for a cheap rifle. This one is pushing the limit.

For me the Browning shoots better than I can. Any advantage to a gun that shoots better would be lost to me.

Although I didn't explicitly say it, I was also suggesting that the OP consider a good used gun. 

Randolphj,

Remember that the zombie might be shooting back and be better than you.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

Not sure I understand the desire to kill the already dead zombies. 

Dear, Elk I can understand and I have seen hunting areas where a long range would be helpful. I have never taken a shot or needed to take a shot over 200 yards. 

I think the poster is getting some good advice on purchasing a used gun in good condition, spending some money on a gun smith, lots on optics and practicing than practicing some more. 

The suggestion to purchase the smallest caliber that will get you the range you want while killing that already dead zombie sounds like very good advice. The cheaper the bullets the more you can afford to practice.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Nimrod said:


> Wannabe,
> 
> I looked up the Remington LTR and they go for about a grand. The OP was looking for a cheap rifle. This one is pushing the limit.
> 
> ...


Wow, they must have went up big time! Back when I purchased mine they were not that much.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> spending some money on a gun smith


I've never found that necessary if you buy a quality gun to begin with.
Many rifles today, *right off the shelf*, will shoot as well as most custom rifles


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've never found that necessary if you buy a quality gun to begin with.
> Many rifles today, *right off the shelf*, will shoot as well as most custom rifles


This is true..my LTR and PSS are sub MOA with reloads or of the shelf match ammo.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

1000 yard Palma match, shot by a 16 year old. sleeved 700 action



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSrtcNtYrb0[/ame]


those are 5x10 foot number boards you see, the actual targets are about 35 yards beyond. the 308 will take almost two seconds in flight, and will reach a maxium height of about 20 feet before fallng to the target. iron sights, scopes are for whimps.:drum:


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

My Winchester 30 30 can shoot 600 yards with a tack driver. Why do you want to have a sniper bolt gun? Are you trying to get a head start of being a sniper for the military? Most snipers are trained to forget what they know about shooting and learn it from the experts. One of the guns used to train a sniper is a .22.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Pistol and short barrelled 12 gauge for close quarters, Marlin .22 with scope for mid range and scoped Marlin 30-06 bolt action for long range protection make for an affordable self defense collection.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

People ain't paper.

One of the hottest bullets in long range shooting right now, is the 6.5. In the right weight, it combines the best of wind-bucking abilities with good trajectories.

But...While I like the 6.5 ( I own a customized 6.5x55 - aluminum pillared bedded action, Timney trigger, custom turned, tuned and crowned barrel,) it's not my favorite go to gun for long range work.

Lots of guys go gaga over the .338 Lapua, but it's a bit too esoteric for me. No, I'm a big fan of the standard .300 Winchester Magnum. Here's why I like it:

1. Most modern bolt action rifles will group MOA with the round. Some will do better.

2. Most manufacturers offer a premium .300 Win load. Make no mistake, ammo makers load stuff about as accurate as you can at the bench. I reload today to save money, not so much for accuracy.

3. If you do reload, though, there are a ton of 30 caliber choices available.

4. You are a lot more likely to find a couple of boxes of .300 Win at a country store, than you'll find 6.5 or .338.

Lastly, when talking about rifle brands, we have always had good luck with Savage. If you are willing to spend just a wee bit more, Tikka makes what I consider the most accurate rifle for the money on the market today.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Please explain the difference in the result of a 168 grain bullet traveling 1800 feet per second hitting (God forbid) people or paper. Seems to me the results is the same, a score

The odds are none of us here will ever take a shot on a person, Thank God, I'm sure there is a lot of difference in paper and people,,, just talk if you cant make the shot. on paper or as one shooter we all know,,watermelons....

if you know anything about NRA, long range highpower targets, the X ring size will have a particular size.....about the size of a brain shot. no one talks about it.

like i said if you're in the record books you've proved yourself, all else is just talk. i hear a lot of talk about 1000 yard shots. i know a few hundred in this nation that can actually do it on a daily basis. I see the equipment it takes on a weekly basis. I witness the hundreds, thousands of hours of practice it takes..let me repeat, it takes practice.

anyway, get a rifle, get ammo, get a kid, and go to an organized range and learn something, have some fun. and remember its the patriotic duty of every responsible American citizen to own a firearm and know how to use it....well thats what i think.... 

the 100 year old 6.5 x 55 and its younger brothers and all the other good cartridges are good long shooters. almost anyone can take a modern rested rifle and hit a clay at 300 yards, but a cartridge and rifle does not a rifleman make. i'm speaking of taking a freely held rifle and making 600 to 1000 yards and beyond hits. it takes practice, it takes development of neuron paths in the brain. and that takes thousands of rounds. who can afford to purchase the non military brass it takes for practice. i am prepping 2000 once fired lake city 308 casings now. they cost me $400 shipped . what would 6.5 x 55 or 338 cost? about $1800 + shipping?


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

My longest shot ever was 550 yards at an electric stove reflector (the large one) and let me tell ya, you ain't gonna do that very easily with most rifles...it took me three shots to get on target, I had my velocities and I knew my distance, plugged it into my range calculator and dialed my scope. And for the folks who tell me they've shot deer at 300-500 yards...I know BS when I hear it.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

On the run at 300 yards....the very last day of the season...hunting the power lines...my husband made Maine Antler and Skull Club...with his .280....his freinds were there to witness...and the deer is hung on the wall.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

A wise man once said, get there fustest with the mostest.

I like having a bullet arrive with over 1600 pounds of energy at 500 yards. Yes, I agree a .308 does a nice job of killing...I've got a Savage that has accounted for its share of venison...but there's a difference between killing and swatting.

I'm too old and lazy to trail much, anymore...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> One of the hottest bullets in long range shooting right now, is the 6.5.


It's one of the latest "fad" bullets
Reality is they all perform basically the same if they have similar weights and velocities.

Some calibers tend to have slightly better ballistic coefficients, but unless you're doing competitive target shooting, it really makes little* practical *difference


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

mpillow said:


> On the run at 300 yards....the very last day of the season...hunting the power lines...my husband made Maine Antler and Skull Club...with his .280....his freinds were there to witness...and the deer is hung on the wall.


I'm not saying it can't be done, but some folks 300 yards is 300 feet.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> And for the folks who tell me they've shot *deer at 300-500 yards*...I not BS when I hear it.


That's not all that unusual around here.
Google "Beanfield Rifles" and you'll see most of the guns already mentioned here


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Perhaps...

One of the reasons the 6.5x55 was such a good cartridge, was the bullet. For the caliber, 6.5 bullets have a high sectional density. Sectional density equates to penetration, if you are shooting at animals or people.

Because of their axis, they also buck wind as well as most.

In the case of the 6.5, this all combines to give you a decently flat shooting bullet, with decent wind-bucking ability, and in a package that is comfortable to shoot, for almost anyone.

What I think is lacking, is commonality and energy on target (at the longer distances). Hence, my argument in favor of the .300 Mag.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's not all that unusual around here.
> Google "Beanfield Rifles" and you'll see most of the guns already mentioned here


I could easily make a kill shot with my 308 at that distance with known ammo specs, but with off the shelf ammo with no data it's not going to be easy. I alway hear friends talking about 500 yard kills, it's simply not the norm...none of my friends have a rangefinder...what do they base the distance off of? None have a mil-dot scope either...


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Again I ask why do you want a sniper rifle? The gun will not shoot any better than the person holding it. Did you have a person to shoot or will anybody do? Any gun will only shoot so far but it is the the person behind that makes it hit. Try a .22 to become good at aiming then go to something bigger. The best shot I have ever saw was from a single shot 30-06 breach loader. He shot a 1200 yards at a half dollar and centered it.But he had a great scope on it. the scope cost 2 times as much as the gun and the man was a good shot.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

In all reality the basic rounds that have been around forever (.270, 308, 30-06, etc) will take down any animal in North America. It's the shooter that makes the difference.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> It's the shooter that makes the difference.


Along with using the right *projectile*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Again I ask why do you want a sniper rifle? The gun will not shoot any better than the person holding it. Did you have a person to shoot or will anybody do? Any gun will only shoot so far but it is the the person behind that makes it hit.


Because they are *precision tools* designed to be more accurate.



> My Winchester 30 30 can shoot 600 yards with a tack driver.


I truly suspect only *one* person here really believes that 

If it were true, you'd see professional snipers using a wider assortment of designs.
Reality is they *mainly* use BOLT actions, and a few semi autos.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Because they are *precision tools* designed to be more accurate.
> 
> 
> I truly suspect only *one* person here really believes that
> ...


You are correct real snipers use a 308 in a re manufactured 700 Remington or a 50 caliber in a semi auto. That is what they are issued. But I doubt that there are snipers here only want to be.But of course it gives a lot of people room to talk about the different rounds and what they will do in the hands of a real sniper or the guns they think may work.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That is what they are issued.


That is what they are issued, *because* that is what has *proven* to be the most accurate design.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

A VEPR in 7.62 x 54r. That should cover all the angles I think. Short enough to use in the woods in buildings, etc. But has a decent enough reach with a big hunk of lead that's still cheap and available.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That is what they are issued, *because* that is what has *proven* to be the most accurate design.


Or low bid government contract!!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> Or *low bid* government contract!!


That would only determine who built them
The Govt gives out the *design specs* that have to be met


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That is what they are issued, *because* that is what has *proven* to be the most accurate design.


With a good shooter not just a paper targets but human. It is not just being a good shooter but the willingness to pull the trigger that is what a sniper is all about. When you look thru the optics at somebody and pull the trigger at somebody that really doesn't want to die but will when you pull the trigger may weed out the want to be. A sniper has to do many things to get in position to pull the trigger and most of us can learn that part but the actually shooting of a man is harder than you might suspect. That is why I hate to give advice for a sniper rifle because it will do no good if you are not ready to kill somebody. I may be cautions about advising people to get the best but on the other hand anybody can shoot paper targets.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That is why I hate to give advice for a *sniper* rifle because it will do no good if you are not ready to kill somebody


The best type of rifle *for* *long range precision* has nothing to do with killing at all.
You're too hung up on just one word

Read the OP's *actual question* on more time:



> Hello all, I'm looking for advice on a* good starter long range rifle* I only shoot pistols and ar's so not looking to spend 3 g's on a first bolt gun. any suggestions?





> Sniper's Rifle:
> In military and law enforcement terminology, a *sniper rifle* is a precision-rifle used to ensure more accurate placement of bullets at longer ranges than other small arms.
> 
> A typical sniper rifle is built for optimal levels of accuracy, fitted with a telescopic sight and chambered for a military centerfire cartridge.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The best type of rifle *for* *long range precision* has nothing to do with killing at all.
> You're too hung up on just one word
> 
> Read the OP's *actual question* on more time:


Agreed, this thread has taken a turn from the original question which I viewed to be a relatively inexpensive rifle for long range work. Keeping in mind that everyone has a different opinion of what LR is. When I was competing, LR was 700 and beyond, most thinking 800, 900, and 1000. Mid-range was out to 600.

While any rifle capable of deer hunting can be utilized, a âprecision rifleâ has some features not normally found in your average âoff the shelfâ sporter, such as heavy barrel, adjustable match trigger, bedding, sometimes an adjustable stock. The optics are usually high powered, with ranging and holdover capability and external adjustments to dial in for range/wind corrections. Theyâre also usually chambered in calibers that have shown some level of inherent accuracy, and their barrels have the proper twist rate to stabilize a bullet getting to a certain ballistic coefficient (usually heavy/long for caliber). 

Regardless of how accurate a standard rifle might be, it generally wonât meet the definition of what is considered to be a precision rifle. For instance I have 16 centerfire rifles, some are very accurate, sub MOA with handloads, but I only have 2 that I consider to be âprecisionâ rifles. Hereâs a picture of one of mine ( the yellow/white on the side is the dope chart out to 600 in MIL/clicks):




Reticle at 500 yards:



BTW, the new REM MSR (the new sniper rifle) is chambered in the standard military sniping calibers of 7.62, .300W, and .338 Lapua. Itâs a switch barrel that handles all 3 calibers. http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/Firearms/Sniper%20Rifles/MSR.aspx

Chuck


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## ralph perrello (Mar 8, 2013)

IF, and I hope it never does, it ever becomes necessary for me to need a 900yard rifle I shall revert to my US Army infantry training and pick one up from a body I am leaving behind and all the ammunition I need as I go past more bodies.

I know this sounds grossly morbid but I am a realist. If it gets to where it is them or me I shall try my darndest for it to be me and with no regrets for having to kill another human being. Can I do this now? NO! Never until it is my life at stake. 

At 72 years of age I hope this never materializes. History tells us that there has been way too much blood spilled in the world and it is still being spilled. When are human beings going to say ENOUGH!!! and stop stomping on each others toes?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Keeping in mind that everyone has a different opinion of *what LR is*.


LOL
That's why I specifically *asked.*


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

By far and away the Barrett 50 caliber is the best everything else is less.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> By far and away the Barrett 50 caliber is *the best* everything else is less.


That depends on the specific job that needs to be done, which is why there need to be choices
Often one of these would be better:


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That depends on the specific job that needs to be done, which is why there need to be choices
> Often one of these would be better:


Are arguing that the Barret is not the best one or that you like your guns. Any rifle can do the job as long as it reaches the target with a killing force. It doesn't matter if it is the top of the line or the cheapest one out their.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Are arguing that the Barret is not *the best one*


If Barretts were "best" *for everything*, then they wouldn't be using MOSTLY Remingtons in smaller calibers

M40A1 (USMC)








M40A3 (USMC)









M24SWS (Army & USAF)








M110 SASS (Army)









A Barrett is more of a "specialty" tool, best used on hard targets like vehicles
M82A1 Barrett:


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

Look up the 20mm Vulcan. Now that will reach out and touch something that the Barrett struggles to reach. I tried posting an image, but kept getting error messages. The image I did get to load compares the 5.56, 338 Lapua, .50BMG and the 20mm


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> By far and away the Barrett 50 caliber is the best everything else is less.


Actually not if you believe any of the AARs coming out of theater. If you mean everything else has less weight, then Iâll agree. 

The .50 is a specialized weapon, itâs heavy, cumbersome, and match grade ammo is in short supply. Without mach grade ammo it's a 1.5MOA system. The initial concept was for it to be used against hard targets such as vehicles, not a GP sniper weapon. Most of the guys weâve interviewed that had to hump their gear any distance used either the .300s or the .338L. A couple AARs I read went so far as recommending leaving the .50 back at the FOB. 

Chuck


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

The Barret can kill somebody 1 foot away or at a mile. What else can do that? In your sense you will have to have one of everything to do the job. A .22 up to Artillery can do the job in the right situations.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The Barret can kill somebody 1 foot away or at a mile. *What else can do that? *


That has nothing to do with what is "best" "in a particular situation, but to answer your question, it's been done more than once with a *338 Lapua*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills


> > Longest confirmed sniper kill
> > In November 2009, British Army sniper Corporal of Horse (CoH) Craig Harrison, a member of the Household Cavalry, set the then longest recorded sniper kill record by killing two Taliban machine gunners consecutively south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan at *a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd) using a L115A3 rifle*.[7][8][9][10] In the reports CoH Harrison mentions the environmental conditions were perfect for long range shooting: no wind, mild weather, clear visibility. [11]
> 
> 
> ...


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That has nothing to do with what is "best" "in a particular situation, but to answer your question, it's been done more than once with a *338 Lapua*
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills


I stand corected the Barret is nothing to the 338 Lapua. Wow over 2 and half miles that is great shooting.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Old Vet said:


> I stand corected the Barret is nothing to the 338 Lapua. Wow over 2 and half miles that is great shooting.


It's a pretty good round, it's used more than the 50bmg on soft targets.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I stand corected the Barret is nothing to the 338 Lapua


The Barrett and the 50 BMG cartridge still does better for* SOME* things, like armor or vehicles, but you have to keep in mind it's a 30+ lb rifle that doesn't lend itself to being carried by a lone gunner trying to stay hidden.

In modern URBAN combat, often a "long shot" will be 300-400 yds


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

i once saw a guy on a tractor down a 16 oz coke from a bottle. when he had finished, he threw the botttle to the ground (for us kids to pick up for deposit money). the bottle landed and stood on the hard soil, upside down.

to receive a NRA rating, you have to shoot your last 25o shoots at a certain score. thats 250 shots, not one. Starting with Marskman, Sharpshooter, Expert. Distinguished Experts have to have to receive 32 points which are gained through competing in sactioned EIC (excellance in competation) matches, the top ten percent gaining points based on a formula. these matches draw the very best shots in and outside our nation (civilian and military). Most have their pictures taken, some very few will not have their pictures taken. the last points have to be obtained at the nationals at camp perry. all else is just talk.

I onced shot a clay with the very first shot at 500 yards with a rested, newly scoped N0 1 ruger 300 win. mag. what i saw through the scope (and no one saw) was the shot fell short, but the resulting gravel was thrown through the clay breaking it....i walked away from the rifle, claming the shot. one fluke shot, just talk. 

know NPA, bone on bone, respority pause, sling use, pulse points, sugar levels, relaxation methods, trajectory and wind effects of your tuned round, effect of lighting on sight picture, cheek pressure, trigger pull methods, barrel temperature vs shot placement history. without knowing all this,,,,,its just talk.

get on a organized range, get some coaching, fire a few thousand tuned rounds. if a 50 cal is what you.re using fire a few thousand rounds of that. if you're using a 105 recoiless rifle, practice a few thousand rounds of that to get good, what ever you can afford....all else is just talk.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

randolphj said:


> Hello all, I'm looking for advice on a good starter long range rifle I only shoot pistols and ar's so not looking to spend 3 g's on a first bolt gun. any suggestions?


 I believe a nice WWII Model 1903A4 would make a very nice starter long range rifle that should be had for a reasonable price. Not only that, it would be a decent investment that will continue to appreciate in value with time.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> I believe a nice WWII Model 1903A4 would make a very nice starter long range rifle that should be had for a reasonable price. Not only that, it would be a decent investment that will continue to appreciate in value with time.


Nice rifles, With the CMP vintage Sniper Matches, which started 3 yeaers ago the demand for the rifles and reproduction (a3's scoped to be a4's) has driven the price up. The re barreled, 1903A3 with reproduction scopes (leatherwood) are running around $1200.00. 

My son and daughter shoot a Swedish mauser (6.5 x 55) with a reproduction scope mount (accumount $250) and an original weaver K4 scope all to meet the requirements of CMP so for about $800, we put together a foreign military vintage sniper rifle (i did the smithing)

http://www.odcmp.com/Comm/OTM/11/OTM_Summer2011.pdf


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Ace, that Jessica is a cutie. She is really going to intimidate a boyfriend someday! Great shooting! I really enjoy hearing - and seeing - how Jessica and Robert are doing at the CMP matches. You must be very proud!


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