# About the food to be missing from California



## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Anyone think like me? (Hmmm, not likely, let me rephrase that) Anyone also thinking ahead on this?

If California is not going to have cantaloupe available this coming season due to water restrictions and the price is scheduled to go up, wouldn't it be an idea to plant your own cantaloupe or other "endangered" food for sale during that peak drought of food? Seems like a money making opportunity to me. Money is good for survival.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

We've been thinking exactly the same thing around here.
You should see the amount of seeds I'm getting started, and dh and I have already decided that the extras will go to the Farmers Markets on Saturdays.:happy:


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I have never bought a cantaloupe. We plant what we eat but I haven't had 1 in 3 years....James


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yup. I heard that Michigan is #2 behind Callyfornia in Produce production, so maybe we can help.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

what about the taters coming out of ID? or AZ? CA isn't the only place having water issues.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Melons, salad greens, tomatoes, all sorts of produce is going to get awful expensive this year, I think.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Lot of brown in a lot of mountains last couple times I've been out there.

A lot of folks are going to have a tough year this year.


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

hercsmama said:


> Melons, salad greens, tomatoes, all sorts of produce is going to get awful expensive this year, I think.


Not at my house....lol


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

Almonds....watch the price skyrocket on them now (like they weren't already high-ish). Just read a story on Yahoo! about farmers in CA ripping up healthy trees and selling them as wood chips because they won't be able to keep whole groves watered enough.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

the few things i buy i am buying extras now.


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## Peggy (Feb 14, 2010)

thanks for the tip. will have to add cantaloupe to my garden!


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

jessimeredith said:


> Almonds....watch the price skyrocket on them now (like they weren't already high-ish). Just read a story on Yahoo! about farmers in CA ripping up healthy trees and selling them as wood chips because they won't be able to keep whole groves watered enough.


Just told DH to stock up on Almonds and all nuts when he goes to town tomorrow. We are just planting nut trees this year, missed out last year, so it will be awhile before we have our own...


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## OH Boy (Dec 22, 2010)

I think the 'shortage' will be during certain times of the year when the crop in California is ripening but the same crop in other parts of the country is not ready yet or is done for the season. It may be difficult to capitalize on the California shortages by trying to produce the same crop in other locations that have different climate conditions. Not to say its impossible but it could be challenging.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I agree it could be challenging, but using "starts" and having good luck could make it possible.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I was thinking the same things. The farmers markets should be popular this year.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

It is only the irrigation districts that won't be getting water. A lot of wells in California that are not affected. A lot of the newer nut and fruit orchards are on wells and emitters....James


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

I tryed melons last year. They were in the same bed as the cukes. We put up many pounds of cukes , but not one melon.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

We've never had much luck with canteloupes, either. We plant them every year, but either they rot before ripening, or just never form. We love canteloupe, and it's so healthy for us, but I don't buy them at the store. Those tiny melons for $3 just aren't in our budget.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Whn the prices of certain items climb too high, I just don't buy them and do without. Sometimes I can find local fruits and vegetables being sold by local people alot cheaper than the stores. (I live near all the Amish in Bremen Ohio) I'll wait until I can get it at a reasonable price or I do without. It won't kill me to not buy something when the price is outrageous ....... It's like buying a brick of 22's for $80.00. That is stupid and I won't do it. I won't buy a scrawny cantalope for 5 dollars either .....
If it's too high in price, then I hope it rots on the shelves. 
If meat gets too high, then I'll just start killin' more .... no biggie deal.
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

We were just discussing this with my sis and BIL yesterday. My DD grew some awesome cantalopes at age 6....no success since!

Was thinking about making a shelf on my south facing windows and starting some salad greens, bok choi and beets...but wll the cats stay out of them?

So far we have a good amount of meat growing (pork and beef) for the coming year and enough wood....but need to get more wood "drying" and start some seedlings but I think it will be late May before all the snow is gone and soil temps are good...:grump:


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I've had bumper crops of cateloupes and we're in a very cold area with short summers. They need warm soil to do well. If you lay down black plastic and plant the canteloup through holes cut in the plastic, the soil gets very warm and they grow well. My guess is that I got around 200 lbs of melons per year with maybe . . . . IDK . . . . 30-35 plants? I put 4 plants together in one hole, and space the holes 4 feet apart. They don't need much watering spaced this way. The water doesn't evaporate.

The only year I didn't get a bumper crop was last year. I didn't get a single one and I don't know why. Maybe because I didn't have a lot of rabbit manure to fertilize with like I have in the past.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Not trying to highjack the thread but at my local IGA saturday the owner told me the cheapest hamburger will cost HIM over $ 5lb by summer.....


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## homstdr74 (Jul 4, 2011)

We'll either have to grow or do without a lot of these items as times get tougher:

http://www.netstate.com/economy/ca_economy.htm

"California grows over 200 different crops, some grown nowhere else in the nation. Crops include *grapes, almonds, strawberries, oranges and walnuts*.

California produces almost all of the country's *almonds, apricots, dates, figs, kiwi fruit, nectarines, olives, pistachios, prunes, and walnuts*. It leads in the production of *avocados, grapes, lemons, melons, peaches, plums, and strawberries.* Only Florida produces more oranges.

The most important vegetable crops grown in the state are *lettuce and tomatoes*. Again, California leads the way. *Broccoli and carrots rank second followed by asparagus, cauliflower, celery, garlic, mushrooms, onions, and peppers.* 

Only Texas grows more cotton than California. Hay, rice, corn, sugar beets, and wheat are also grown in large quantities."


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Looks like a list of stuff to plant and bring to farmers markets, homstdr. Except the tree fruits of course, and if you don't already have asparagus it will be too late to take advantage of that.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

jwal10 said:


> It is only the irrigation districts that won't be getting water. A lot of wells in California that are not affected. A lot of the newer nut and fruit orchards are on wells and emitters....James



Don't wells have to rely on recharging from the snow melt as well? I know from my experience with wells in the past that if it doesn't rain, the well can go dry.

Maybe they get their water some other way out in California? My DH sister lives out there and she said that many of the growers are letting their cropland go fallow this year and that produce prices are already going up as there has been a drought for quite some time.

I have grown cantaloupes in half barrels and used a trellis for the vines. You have to sling the fruit with netting or old t-shirts, but they do will as long as they get enough sun and water. One thing to make the fruit bigger is to remove every other bloom so that there are larger fruit but not as much of it. Oh and be sure to keep the ants out, they LOVE to set up shop in a melon patch - lol..


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

lets see there is a strawberry farm right down the road from me..and we have peach trees, and grow a garden so I dont think we have to worry about California here in Middle TN...:thumb:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Unfortunately, no one is really isolated unless they produce their own at home. If Michigan can take up some slack in terms of produce, it will still likely cost more in Michigan stores as some of Michigan produce will be siphoned off to supply those usually supplied by California.
I think it will be like hay shortages where the locally grown hay is sent where people need it and are willing to pay more. Then the local hay sellers will want more locally because they can always sell it for more at the moment.
No one is going to starve but there will be increasing prices and probably more imported foods.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

""California grows over 200 different crops, some grown nowhere else in the nation. Crops include *grapes, almonds, strawberries, oranges and walnuts*.""

Media finessing of facts at its best.  <satire mode on>
"*some grown nowhere else in the nation*" Try to explain to the people with vineyards in New York and Florida that they don't grow grapes. For that matter, explain to the people around Martha's Vineyard that the original explorers must have discovered California because grapes don't grow there.

Oranges. Californians are confused. They grow orange SKINS with a drop of orange juice inside. Florida grows oranges with real juice in them and thin skins.

Strawberries. Maybe we should chip together and send the writer of that fluff a big raspberry? I'll keep the local juicy strawberries.

Walnuts. Now I guess that might explain why the walnut tree out back that had been there for about a hundred years was so hard to cut. The roots were in California.

Hass avocados may be pretty much from California. The Florida ones are a different variety. (Of course we all know that Texas no longer grows anything...  )


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Harry Chickpea said:


> ""California grows over 200 different crops, some grown nowhere else in the nation. Crops include *grapes, almonds, strawberries, oranges and walnuts*.""
> 
> Media finessing of facts at its best.  <satire mode on>
> "*some grown nowhere else in the nation*" Try to explain to the people with vineyards in New York and Florida that they don't grow grapes. For that matter, explain to the people around Martha's Vineyard that the original explorers must have discovered California because grapes don't grow there.
> ...


The two statements are not connected. It did not say that oranges only grow in California. Just that some commercial crops are pretty much restricted to California like almonds and kiwis. And the California also is a prominent producer of the things in the second sentence.

And, after they pick a green Florida orange and send it to California, it is a much more pathetic specimen than the lovely, juicy naval orange for fresh eating that is provided locally. I'm sure that Florida's oranges in, places near their origin, are better than California oranges picked under ripen then shipped too.


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## Peggy (Feb 14, 2010)

Hey everyone, just in case it is a dry summer where you live. make sure you have rain barrels set up. I just ordered another one this year. It is suppose to be a hot summer in my area.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

I am completely planning.
With the FEDS refusing any irrigation waters to the Central Valley, veggies will be a rarity.
I will be planting bigger etc..

But sadly..it's the poorest that will suffer the most.
Fresh veggies are already tough for them to afford.

And the effects will spread to everything.. all of the processed foods that contain dried veggies etc.. will go up and then the foods that don't contain any will go up because 'why should the farmers make all the money'.
I think we will see a food crisis.

Not to mention the cost driven up by speculation.. which is the leading cost of the price of food already.
Speculators are going to go wild, so we will see the prices rise before the shortages actually begin.


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## shannsmom (Jul 28, 2009)

Countryfied2011, those are some pretty pictures....making me hungry!

We get most of our produce (not grown locally) from South Florida, but this past weekend, one of the veggie guys at the flea market we go to said he couldn't get cantaloupes anywhere near cheap enough to resell from down there, so wasn't bothering. Not sure why their prices have gone up so much, I sincerely hope they are not using the news from California to jack up prices. The other guy didn't have any, either. I think I will try to grow my own this year, never had luck with them before, but it can't hurt to try. This household just doesn't know how much work I have in store for them  

ETA: Your pictures reminded me....we pick 40+ pounds of strawberries every spring at a local farm, but they just sent an email saying that with the losses they suffered last year due to the weather, they couldn't afford to plant them this year. That was shocking and disheartening. Now I wish I had't given so many pounds away last year!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Shallow wells rely on rain water, including snow melt. Deep wells rely on aquifers. The water is there and has been for centuries. For drinking and home gardens, these aquifers will outlast us all. However, if the aquifers are tapped for irrigation, they can be drained relatively quickly. This is happening in Australia and in the west.


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank you Shannsmom



> ETA: Your pictures reminded me....we pick 40+ pounds of strawberries every spring at a local farm, but they just sent an email saying that with the losses they suffered last year due to the weather, they couldn't afford to plant them this year. That was shocking and disheartening. Now I wish I had't given so many pounds away last year!


I usually buy between 10 to 14 gallons every year just in case something happens and there isnt a good year. I probably have at least 7 to 8 gallons frozen right now. What I will do this year is if there is a good crop, I will take the ones I have frozen and make jam and then take this years crop make jam and also freeze for next year. So every year I am carrying some over. I do the same with veggies and fruits from the garden. We usually have 2 yrs of stuff ahead...so like right now we are finishing off 2011 and working on 2012.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

where I want to said:


> The two statements are not connected. It did not say that oranges only grow in California. Just that some commercial crops are pretty much restricted to California like almonds and kiwis. And the California also is a prominent producer of the things in the second sentence.
> 
> And, after they pick a green Florida orange and send it to California, it is a much more pathetic specimen than the lovely, juicy naval orange for fresh eating that is provided locally. I'm sure that Florida's oranges in, places near their origin, are better than California oranges picked under ripen then shipped too.


Note that I had satire mode on. The concept is that words have power. Place two statements together that are not related and people will MAKE a relationship. "George Bush II invaded Iraq to take out Saddam" "Iraq has a civil war going on." Those may or may not have a relationship, but someone reading will imply that they must. It is a media and propaganda trick that has been used for generations.

If the article had said "Almonds and Kiwis might be a problem this year," that would be factual reporting and good journalism. To IMPLY that grapes only grow in California is what passes for reporting these days.

(Never grown a kiwi, but had them and consider that passionfruit is a wonderful alternative.)


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

we import more produce than anyone here realizes...

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/wa_fv190.txt


http://www.marketnews.usda.gov/portal/fv


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Big storm expected here in Northern CA the next couple of days....Yeah!!! 
It won't get us out of our drought situation but every bit helps!!!


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

I was reading that aquafirs had been drained so heavily in parts of Ca that the land is sinking inches a year. Cannot refill a crushed area. Also read that salt water is an issue with the real deep wells. Those are problems not just in one state either. Here in NY there are growing concerns with water, in part to large dairy herds that number in hundreds and many of them per county. Aquafirs and ground water can be a finite resource. This, in turn can affect everyone's well within a fairly large area. To say nothing of the bacterial contamination. Food production is not something to take for granted. Just because my well has always been good in a dry year doesn't mean that the thousands of cows in a fifty mile radius won't affect the ground water table and cause my well to go kaput. Rain barrels and cisterns are looking like a real good project. Btw, BWH magazine has a goodvarticle on building a cistern out of drain pipe.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

tab said:


> Btw, BWH magazine has a goodvarticle on building a cistern out of drain pipe.


Do you have a link?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Something I considered when I first read about this that others may or may not have ...

Centralized agriculture with government subsidies and cheap immigrant labor from Mexico is a STAPLE of the California model of agriculture.

If it goes bust, does that not mean an opportunity is created for those growing foods elsewhere?

Yes, I think the general public will pay more for food, but if they're paying people more local to them instead of giant agro-businesses on the other end of the country, is that not a net gain?


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

no cantalopes,but we do a 300ft row of sugar baby watermelons


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Off topic, but not really.
Tomorrow I have an interview with a woman from the USDA. We've applied for a grant to have a high tunnel built on the property, it's part of the Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food program.
If we get it, it will go a long way in allowing us to take our gardening to a much more commercial place!! So excited!:goodjob:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

hercsmama said:


> Off topic, but not really.
> Tomorrow I have an interview with a woman from the USDA. We've applied for a grant to have a high tunnel built on the property, it's part of the Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food program.
> If we get it, it will go a long way in allowing us to take our gardening to a much more commercial place!! So excited!:goodjob:


No offense to you personally, but that's exactly what is the problem.

Government subsidized agriculture. Why should I, the taxpayer, give you a head start in your business over someone else? How does it in any way benefit the community to have small, local farmers who have no robustness in their competitive model and have to depend upon the USDA for their infrastructure?

The USDA paid for much of that infrastructure in California which is about to go belly-up. A SIZABLE investment on the behalf of the American people _which didn't pan out_.

So why should we do it again? Almost every other business has to stand on its own, so why shouldn't commercial agriculture?

Sustainable agriculture is what we need, not agriculture that's being propped up by fiat currency printed in bulk by the Federal Reserve. 

The government meddling in the free market is what has created these problems. They pick winners and losers. 

There's other people here who grow and sell food. Do you think it's fair that you take their money and then use it to build infrastructure and compete against them?


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

I can't grow melons, so I plant what grows. California should start growing what they can during wet monthes. Instead of trying to grow water hungry crops.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

snowcap said:


> I can't grow melons, so I plant what grows. California should start growing what they can during wet monthes. Instead of trying to grow water hungry crops.


Trouble is there was no wet season. California has a large water infrastructure for catching snow melt to use but no snow, no snow melt. And no wet season means no water for any crops no matter how drought tolerant.
So far the big storm has been a bust for us but I heard it was better down south.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Ernie, no offense taken, and I do see your point. But, as both my husband and I have worked for our entire lives, and payed into the system diligently, never asking for or taking any hand outs, heck we owe taxes every year, I personally don't see a real problem with this program helping us with a few thousand dollars to get a jump start on building this thing.
Now, if we were not the type that have worked our hind ends off, and sat about collecting on every thing that came along, well, that wouldn't be right.

As far as taking someone elses infrastructure for our own gain, as far as I see it, it isn't happening. After over 30 and 40 years in the workforce, I have no doubt that the amounts we have both paid into the system will more than compensate for the small amount we are talking about here.

As to what has caused all the water issues in various part of the country, besides the obvious, I can't help but wonder, what was everyone thinking building golf courses, and housing subdivisions in desert areas.
While subsidized Ag has certainly been a portion of the issue, I think the major portion belongs to developers not thinking things through properly, and, in truth, that old saying "Follow the Money", comes into play in a big way.
They knew, way back in the beginning, that the areas in question had water issues, but allowed the over building, and over crowding to continue. 
People need houses, people need food, but the question is, how many people can the area actually support?
There really is a whole scary place this entire argument can go...

BUT, it doesn't solve the already existing problem. Neither does stealing water from one area to take to another. I personally would love to see California, and any and all other states that have coastlines, start seriously using desalinization plants, and supplying themselves with their own water.
Of course, then you get into that whole "Draining the oceans" argument. And around and around we go.....


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## homstdr74 (Jul 4, 2011)

There are some good books on year-round production of food. Google has some excerpts from some of them. The one by Leandre Poisson has some interesting information and some neat pictures of what agriculture was like in &#8220;the good old days&#8221;. Here&#8217;s the book from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Gardening-Vegetables-Year-Round-Independent/dp/0930031695

Here&#8217;s a link to Eliot Coleman&#8217;s book on four season agriculture. Coleman has spent years studying the French intensive method of gardening:

http://www.amazon.com/Four-Season-Harvest-Organic-Vegetables-Edition/dp/1890132276/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y/184-6804361-4047364


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

hercsmama said:


> Ernie, no offense taken, and I do see your point. But, as both my husband and I have worked for our entire lives, and payed into the system diligently, never asking for or taking any hand outs, heck we owe taxes every year, I personally don't see a real problem with this program helping us with a few thousand dollars to get a jump start on building this thing.
> Now, if we were not the type that have worked our hind ends off, and sat about collecting on every thing that came along, well, that wouldn't be right.


You never get to the point where you've had so much stolen from you that it justifies throwing in your lot with the thieves and participating in their stealing from others.

And when you do succeed ... because I think you probably are the type who will do well with this ... you won't have the pride and self-respect which comes from having done it on your own. The government will have robbed you of that too, and they will never forget you. Doing this puts you permanently in their debt.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Ernie said:


> You never get to the point where you've had so much stolen from you that it justifies throwing in your lot with the thieves and participating in their stealing from others.


Now dad gum it Ernie, stop that!
Your making sense and ruining my buzz.:Bawling:

You're right and I know it, dh said the same thing the other day when I told him about it....carp. Alright, alright, time to rethink this thing....
we could do it on our own...just need to wait another year for the tractor then.......dad gum it.....I really wanted the tractor this year...
You men! :duel:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

hercsmama said:


> Now dad gum it Ernie, stop that!
> Your making sense and ruining my buzz.:Bawling:
> 
> Your right and I know it, dh said the same thing when I told him about it....carp. Alright, alright, time to rethink this thing....
> ...


I wouldn't have piped in AT ALL in this thread if I didn't think YOU particularly could do this without their help. 

What's a year? And you probably will only use that tractor a couple of times between now and the time you can afford it on your own. You could borrow one from a neighbor, pay someone to do the work for you with theirs, or rent one!

I faced down (and continue to face down) the same temptation. There's grants and business loans and everything else just out there waiting for you to fill out the forms. The government wants EVERYONE to participate in their thievery so there's no one who can sit on the sideline and point the finger at them. 

Y'all can do this on your own. I know you can. Even at a slower pace and with hodge-podge infrastructure, here in a couple more years there will be such a demand for food that your finances will be set. Pray on the matter, and I think you'll find you'll be given the faith to make the leap without the government to hold your hand.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Well done, Ernie. VERY well done.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> No offense to you personally, but that's exactly what is the problem.
> 
> Government subsidized agriculture. Why should I, the taxpayer, give you a head start in your business over someone else? How does it in any way benefit the community to have small, local farmers who have no robustness in their competitive model and have to depend upon the USDA for their infrastructure?
> 
> ...


Because you can live without most of those other businesses but not food? Agriculture should absolutely be supported and even subsidized if necessary. We have a growing shortage of farms and farmers and it is a very hard business to start in due to the cost of land and equipment. We need to do everything in our power to increase food producers. It is in everyone's best interest.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I heard on the radio yesterday that San Diego County is going to purchase 30% of it's potable water from a Desalination Plant that is being built right now near there.

The water will cost more but will be more reliable. Here is a link to the project which is expected to be completed in 2016:

http://carlsbaddesal.com/

and here is a link with a picture of the plant. 

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Jan/07/carlsbad-desalination-plant-drought-poseidon/

California, I believe, currently has 17 desalination plants and are building more as they know they won't have enough water for residents and farms, ranches, and environmental efforts too.

They also plan to recycle sewer water into drinking water and are looking at other ways to save/recycle water. 

One thing they could do is quit building golf courses. Those things take an amazing amount of water. But I always have looked at golf courses as a waste of good pasture


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The reason the San Joaquin Valley is so very productve for agriculture almost all the time is the same thing that has made this such a crisis for them now.
It is a broad, almost perfectly flat valley floor with little "weather" to disrupt growing almost all year long. So, when ample water is available for irrigation, the farmer does not have too much worry that rain or wind or cold or, for that point, heat will ruin his crop. If you drive up the valley, you will see apparently endless flat fields growing just about anything wanted.
But this is the third year with diminishing rain and snow to be held in reservoirs, and with environmental challenges to taking water flow from farming, there is not enough at the moment for business as usual. And the same lack of "weather" that makes farming so good now means they can't grow anything- not even what other places would call a poor harvest.
But this does not mean that it is wrong to farm there, it's just that there will be periods where it simply will not work amidst the more usual superproductive periods.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Love this quote..

"When there is much food there are many problems,when there is no food there is only one problem"

:run:


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Because you can live without most of those other businesses but not food? Agriculture should absolutely be supported and even subsidized if necessary. We have a growing shortage of farms and farmers and it is a *very hard business to start in due to the cost of land and equipment.* We need to do everything in our power to increase food producers. It is in everyone's best interest.


I see your point, and don't disagree - completely - that the gov can be helpful to Ag, in feeding the people. Perhaps, not in the current fashion.

But if it were so hard to get started, then why are the number of homesteads and urban farms increasing? They seem to be doing OK - even without gov support.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

sand flea said:


> I see your point, and don't disagree - completely - that the gov can be helpful to Ag, in feeding the people. Perhaps, not in the current fashion.
> 
> But if it were so hard to get started, then why are the number of homesteads and urban farms increasing? They seem to be doing OK - even without gov support.


Or perhaps we should say, despite the government support _of the larger farms_.

Small farms were just about all you had prior to the 80's, when Reagan's secretary of agriculture made his famous statement of "get big or get out". If there was a family farm in most family histories, that was the decade in which it was most likely lost.

A small farm which can be established and thrive now, without the hand of government, can certainly survive later on when that hand of government is capriciously withdrawn.

Also, consider a future in which America continues down its socialist path and farms are completely collectivized. Which would be the easier farms for the government to lay claim to? The ones who remained free of all obligations and have built a place for themselves in the community on their own footing, or those who took the government's coin early on in their development?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Oh, and before someone says that the government would never seize control of all of the agricultural industry ...

The same could have been said in years prior about the healthcare industry.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Regarding the idea of almost every other business having to stand on its own...
View attachment 23968


If you would really like to delve into which industries are reaping the benefits from the taxpayers, feel free to read the entire report. 

http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf

Long story short, if you are paying taxes, you are helping certain businesses/industries over others, like it or not. 

If it were me, I would have no trouble accepting a grant if my intentions are true and honest.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

where I want to said:


> Do you have a link?


www.backwoodshome.com
Go to current issue, the title of the article is something like "building a cistern out of corrugated drain pipe". It is one of the articles that can be viewed online, I checked  

Sorry for the break, this topic changed a bit since last nite!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

It is the micro-managing hand of big government that is the root of every current problem facing the American people, perhaps by far and large the food supply.

Let local markets face their own problems, and enjoy the benefits of their own successes, and famine will be eliminated from the land.

Unemployment would shortly follow.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

we eat what ever we can grow- and eat what is in season- we have ever-bearing strawberries- black rasberries, purple rasberries- blueberries~ we grow all these
apples pears plums and peaches I get from the Amish- minus the pears I gleen those- 

I love Avocados - but if they aren't available- I will live-


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

sand flea said:


> I see your point, and don't disagree - completely - that the gov can be helpful to Ag, in feeding the people. Perhaps, not in the current fashion.
> 
> But if it were so hard to get started, then why are the number of homesteads and urban farms increasing? They seem to be doing OK - even without gov support.


I would venture a guess that most of these new farms and homesteads do not have the capacity to support themselves and rely on other outside income. At least most farmers I know have an off farm job, or a wife that is a nurse or teacher that also carries the health insurance besides bringing in a paycheck.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

sand flea said:


> I see your point, and don't disagree - completely - that the gov can be helpful to Ag, in feeding the people. Perhaps, not in the current fashion.
> 
> But if it were so hard to get started, then why are the number of homesteads and urban farms increasing? They seem to be doing OK - even without gov support.


Most of us starting homesteads and small farms are older. We have long money making careers behind us or we have one breadwinner in a lucrative field and can afford the price of the land and to support it while we get a farm on it's feet. The average age of American farmers is 57. The largest growing age group going into farming is 65 and older. 
http://www.thegreenhorns.net/wp-content/files_mf/1393277315census.pdf

When we started into the farmers market business we were the youngest people there by a decade or 2 and we were in our late 30's. I have seen some younger people come into it over the last decade and a half but they either inherit their land or they have a person who works off farm making very good money. 

The urban farms generally get free land or very cheap since the city can't use it and it isn't generating tax revenue, they also tend to get hefty grants from a variety of sources and donations too.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Forerunner said:


> It is the micro-managing hand of big government that is the root of every current problem facing the American people, perhaps by far and large the food supply.
> 
> Let local markets face their own problems, and enjoy the benefits of their own successes, and famine will be eliminated from the land.
> 
> Unemployment would shortly follow.


I think there would be a gap and a food shortage between when the government pulled out and the system was able to restore itself but I do agree the Farm bill and the USDA have skewed the system pretty hopelessly. It's nice to see them throw us a small bone once in awhile though with their support for small farmers, farmers markets and stuff like the tunnel supports. 

Part of the problem is also the American people too. They want absurdly cheap food and they do not want to grow any of it themselves. I was just reading about Victory gardens and in 1943 we produced 40% of our fruits and vegetables at our homes. If we were still that invested in producing our own food and less dependent on convenience foods small farms could produce more of what we need and the system would have a better chance of righting itself.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Old habits, especially bad ones, often require stringent and painful therapy/circumstances before they can be broken.

Cold turkey is the quickest.........


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