# Reloading 'Premium' Ammo



## JeepHammer

There have been a lot of posts on 'Reloaing',
Mostly what I'd call 'Plinking' ammo from the descriptions of the reloading practices...

Not much conversations about accuracy ammo.

So, I'd like to know what OCD people go through to produce 'Match' or 'Premium' ammo IN VOLUME...
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My personal process is to cursory clean the brass,
Any brass I can lay hands on that passes inspection...

I de-cap, remove primer.
This finds Berdan priming, creased or flattened cases, some times cracked cases.

I anneal everything.
Soft shoulders/necks make for MUCH longer lived dies when you reload in bulk,
And the shoulder stays where you push it,
The neck case tension on the bullet is more uniform with a dead soft case.

Then I use an air pressure test to see if the flash hole is too big, case neck cracked, ect.

Once deprimed, annealed, crack/flash hole checked,
Its off to a serious cleaning.
I'm using soap/steel pin tumbler.
(Relatively cheap & fast, really clean cases)

Then its resize time,
Full length resize since I can't vouch for what rifle the case came from,
And a SAAMI resize since I don't know which rifle that case is headed for.

Once the shoulders/sides are pushed back where they belong,
I trim for length, and SAAMI trim tapers into the case mouth edges, inside & out,
Deburring in the process.

The primer pocket!
Cut for size, depth, remove any crimp and radius the mouth of the primer pocket,
Pilot drill the flash hole,
This is one process, the primer pocket cutter is auto limiting and contains the flash hole drill.

I only check for 'Diviots' or 'C' punches in the case around the flsh hole on bench rifle reloading, and that's usually brand new or carefully seperated brass.
Some folks say this is nessary, some don't, while I'm on the fence about it...

Once everything is inspected again,
The cases go for cleaning/polish AND SORTING before reloading...
I sort by head stamp, and case volume.

I have no issues with 'De-Militarized' brass once its annealed, De-crimped, primer pocket uniformed, and re-sized,
But some people don't want to mix brass with different case volumes.


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## JeepHammer

You can't add material to an oversize flash hole,
So those go in the 'Plinking' ammo bucket.
You can pretty easily (with a parabolic drill, standard drills like to ball up brass & gall the flash hole) drill undersized holes uniform.

Since ANY wear on the Origional forming dies results in a less than optimum primer pocket,
And since a lot of manufacturers have odd ideas about what a 'Standard' primer pocket should be,
I've found it more time efficient to use a piloted cutter than a 'Swage'.










Swagers make for mostly round holes, and they will push back any crimps,
They usually don't leave a radius or clean taper for the new primer,
And with a blunt nose in a hand press, they don't do a thing for a shallow primer pocket,
A cutter is quick and leaves you with a round, proper depth hole,
And with a pilot drill, a uniform flash hole size, the drill gives you a pilot for the pocket cutter.

The air pressure check for cracks and oversize flash holes isn't perfect,
But its the fastest way I've found so far...
And the rubber nipples I use get worn pretty quickly, but they are common air gun nipples so they are dirt cheap, and apply just enough pressure to open cracks in the neck without expanding a solid neck.
Air is cheap! Strictly a cost/benifit/speed thing...

The length cutter (Case Neck) indexes off the case shoulder,
So no worries about having a piece of grit under the case head to screw up length cutting,
And having a fly cutter not only trims to length, but cuts both inside & outside tapers & Deburrs at the same time.
Can't get a pilot cutter to do that, its three different processes.

Angled Nose, doesn't cut a flat primer hole,
No Stops, you CAN cut too deep,









Square Cutting in the pocket, DOES remove military crimp, and has a positive stop that needs to be adjusted.









Square Cutting, Adjustable Positive Stop, Pilot Hole For flash hole drill,
Doesn't taper or round military crimp...









The primer pocket tool indexes off the bottom of the case head, self limiting so I can't cut too deep.
Makes for FAST case trimming & primer pocket uniforming.

The cutting process also alerts you IMMEDIATELY to oversize primer pockets,
No cut, no shinny brass = oversize primer pocket.
No screwing with a gauge on every brass to check primer pocket for 'Go/NoGo'.

I wish there was an EASY mechanical way to seperate military from civilian brass,
Haven't cracked that one yet.
Tried a scale, but the scale was slower than an eyeball check,
And some civilian (headstamp, I suspect the brass was for government contracts) brass is close enough in weight that a scale can't always differentiate between the two.

My last process to crack is inside flash hole chamfer/radius,
Haven't figured out how to do that inclusive with the case length trim since I'm using a fly cutter.
If it were a pilot, I could include it.
I'll take the 3 for 1 process fly cutter and its precision over a pilot with a reamer.


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## JeepHammer

I found out in the last few years I had been annealing the cases wrong for years.
I had been slathering them on the outside with temperature sensitive paint,
Turns out I should have been painting the inside of the neck,
The outside was getting direct flame heat, and the cases weren't getting up to temp correctly.

I also should have been rotating the case, or using a couple torches to even out the heat around the case...

Before that, I was overheating the cases, getting that 'Puff' of smoke from inside the neck as some of the alloy gave up.

I went to an electrical induction heating element.
360* even heating, simple digital timer precisely heats the cases correctly.
Not real cheap, but MUCH better results and no open flame in the reloading area.


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## MattB4

For better accuracy try just neck sizing your brass after it has been fired in your rifle. Also find that rifles particular length before the lands begin and load the bullets so that they do not engage the lands. Returning brass to factory specs might allow it to be loaded in other rifles but it does not improve accuracy. 

You may be wasting time annealing brass. You should be buying first class brass to begin with instead of using whatever old brass you find. You want consistency and you will not get that by mismatched lots. The cleaning of brass is not as big of a issue either. The overall length and the head space is where accuracy happens. 

Finally you do not mention your tests after doing all your practices. Have you improved a particular rifles accuracy by doing so? If not than you have spent a lot of time making pretty loads.


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## JeepHammer

For bench rifles, I can get away with neck resizing.
For bench rifles, I found that annealing uniformed case neck tension, which increased accuracy.
Once fired brass, unless it was blown out in a super sloppy chamber,
Wouldn't need to be annealed,
But I shoot a bunch of de-milled brass, and you can't bet it didnt go through a machine gun with a sloppy chamber.

According to the metal working geeks, firing the round isn't what hardens it,
Working the case, expansion & compression is what hardens it.
I know blown out cases resize much easier, almost no stuck cases, when they are annealed,
And the resizing dies last much longer.

I'm trying to get once fired brass, but you never know if its fired just once, or what it was fired through, back as close to SAAMI as possible,
Simply because SAAMI is *Supposed* to be the civilian standard,
And SAAMI .223 & .308 are the rounds I fire most, and have the most access to military 'Once Fired' brass for reasonable money.
*.223 Rem specification brass fires just fine in NATO 5.56 chambered rifles,*
So that's a plus also, two birds with one stone kind of thing...

With only a couple of exceptions, (bench rifles) my chambers are all SAAMI specification,
So full length SAAMI sizing works for me & the guys I shoot with,
In any rifle of the same caliber.

I also sell a fair amount of reconditioned brass.

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Primer pockets are routinely out of specification for the commonly available primers.
Not an issue for a hand loader that can seat a primer by 'Feel',
But with a driven auto indexing loader, it results in way more primer insertion issues than I like to see.

The flash hole being oversize a little isn't an issue,
I learned from bench shooting that flash hole UNDERSIZED is an accuracy issue much of the time, and there doesn't seem to be a 'Standard' among manufacturers.
I shoot for (more or less) SAAMI.

A drilled flash hole rarely leaves the 'Funnel' or burrs on the inside a punched hole does,
I deburr anyway in case its a punched hole larger than the drill, but small enough the pressure check doesn't kick them out.

I'm on the fence about the anvil 'C' or 'Ring' punched into the bottom of the case when the flash hole is punched...
Some recondition machines check for, and eject those anvil punched cases, 
Others ignore it completely.
I don't use a ring punched case loading for bench rifles, mostly because I was taught to toss them, not because I have any first hand data on the effects to accuracy or case integrity.


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## MattB4

Well.. all of that is interesting but it sounds like you are marketing reloads. 

I still suggest you simply buy good un-fired brass and avoid all the hand waving exercises.


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## Texaspredatorhu

SAAMI first off is an institution. Second they hold the specs for what a chamber should be. So if you reload any standard cartiridge i.e. A 308 and 223 they will work in any and all rifles chambered such. Dies are manufactured according to SAAMI specs therefore not "requiring" a SAAMI die that may or may not exist in that name. Lastly, if there's only 1 gun to shoot it from and its bench rest neck is better because it will remain tight in the chamber and also extend the useful life of the case. SAAMI is not a "civilian" standard, it is the standard if it wants to labeled a certain cartridge. Do what you want and take all the time in the world, I'm shooting 4" groups at 900 yards and I'm perfectly content with that.


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## diamondtim

MattB4 said:


> For better accuracy try just neck sizing your brass after it has been fired in your rifle. Also find that rifles particular length before the lands begin and load the bullets so that they do not engage the lands. Returning brass to factory specs might allow it to be loaded in other rifles but it does not improve accuracy.


Neck sizing works for bolt action rifles. It doesn't work for auto-loaders.


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## Texaspredatorhu

diamondtim said:


> Neck sizing works for bolt action rifles. It doesn't work for auto-loaders.


It will work in an auto loader if it's the same one it came from. Good chance it'll work going to another but generally full length is best for auto loaders. I always full length size anymore now just because those are the dies that are readily available.


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## JeepHammer

Right now, just reconditioned brass, when it's available, and only to friends and people I shoot with.
Too much liability in loaded ammo.

This is an attempt to recoup some of the money I dump into my own shooting...
Sometimes I break even, but I'm never going to make much money at it.

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From the SAAMI web site,

*"The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) is an association of the nation's leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components. SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and tasked with:
&#8226;Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality
&#8226;Coordinating technical data
&#8226;Promoting safe and responsible firearms use"*

LINK: http://www.saami.org/

Created at the request of the government in 1926, is NOT a governmental or military organization,
Run by civilians, privately funded by members.

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As plainly stated, these brass are NOT fired through the same rifle.

Since these will be fired in several different rifles, I choose to stick to SAAMI specs and NOT produce brass that are off specification.

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Texas, If you took up the 9mm revolver, maybe you could reach out to 1,000 yards...

LINK: http://sploid.gizmodo.com/legendary-shooter-nails-a-1000-yard-shot-with-a-9mm-han-1617466793


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## JeepHammer

diamondtim said:


> Neck sizing works for bolt action rifles. It doesn't work for auto-loaders.


Generally speaking, that's true.
Auto loaders often have oversized chambers to help with feeding,
That blows out the cases, especially in 'Military' firearms.

The military gets to dictate to SAAMI what's it's going to use, doesn't have to apply for, or go through the vetting process.

The point is moot since we are in the US, and I'm using SAAMI specifications,
But SAAMI is a US organization, and not all manufacturers everywhere are members.
In the US for example, wildcatters don't apply for every round they create,
And no one in say, Russia gives a crap what SAAMI thinks or does if they aren't selling here.

I'm aiming to recondition cases to SAAMI specifications for .223 Remington & .308 Winchester.
That includes proper case over all length, neck tapers, both inside and out, and primer pockets cut to proper dimensions to accept commonly available, first quality primers.

*Since you CAN shoot .223 Remington in a 5.56 NATO chamber with no danger,*
Then .223 Remington is the way to go with those cases.
If specified, it's simply a very slight case trimming adjustment to produce NATO 5.56 cases.
*Since people don't seem to often know exactly what the chamber is supposed to be, the .223 Remington is the 'Safest' choice for common cases.*










Cutting with a flat faced cutter, using a pilot in the case neck, produces a pretty ragged trim job, and you still have to taper/deburr both inside and outside to be 'SAAMI', and remove burrs that will screw up case neck tension, gouge the bullet, or put the bullet off center with the bore.
SO,
I'm going with a 'Fly Cutter', a spindle tool with an off set cutting bit with the tapers built into it.
Length & both tapers cut at the same time. 
AFTER FULL LENGHT RESIZING, The tool indexes from the PROPER case point, the shoulder, instead of the head/rim of the round like the more common pilot cutters do.
Using the neck taper as the 'Stop' in the bearing, you simply CAN NOT cut the case too short.

Roller bearing precisely cut with the case bottle neck so the round isn't moving when it cuts,
And that bearing holds the case precisely under the fly cutter so no pilot is needed.
3 cutting processes at once, while still staying centered. Slick & Quick, Precise to boot.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Here we go again.

Thank you for the history lesson, you also proved my point exactly. They create and publish a STANDARD, that is so Remington, Winchester, Howa and so forth can all chamber for instance a 300 win mag and the chambers be exactly or very very close to exactly the same. Never said they weren't civilians but they standardize ALL cartridges that are in production. If you reload ANY standard cartridge you are obviously loading to SAAMI specs unless you go over the max load. You dies will size to SAAMI specs no matter who built it. There is not a special set of dies for a 300 win mag and another for 300 win mag SAAMI. I believe it was you who called all involved telling a new reloader some bad info in your opinion was putting one at risk. I believe it is you that is feeding false info once again. 

I'm not a pistol shooter, I have 1, a 1911. If the Marines hadn't made me carry the M9 I wouldn't care much for shooting one at all. If it's going to be close quarters I have shotguns for that. I stick to rifles. I have never measured a group past 900 because I'm shooting steel at that range and all I care for is the ding at the end. Thanks for your vote of confidence though!


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## diamondtim

Texaspredatorhu said:


> It will work in an auto loader if it's the same one it came from. Good chance it'll work going to another but generally full length is best for auto loaders. I always full length size anymore now just because those are the dies that are readily available.


Small Base FL sizing dies are designed for auto-loaders and lever-actions.


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## Texaspredatorhu

diamondtim said:


> Small Base FL sizing dies are designed for auto-loaders and lever-actions.


I agree. I'm stating my experiance, not always going to work for everyone.


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## Texaspredatorhu

You realize your drawing is a chamber drawing I hope and not a case drawing. The cases are identical except for maybe the wall thickness in NATO ammo. The difference in 5.56 and the 223 is the throat of the chamber, 223 has a shorter throat which will result in higher pressures of using the NATO ammo. Once again putting bum scoop for new reloaders. You will be the one to get someone hurt with your info.


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## Texaspredatorhu

RCBS, a very respectable reloading equipment manufacturer has a set of dies that are labeled both, and for a good reason.


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> ... Never said they weren't civilians but they standardize ALL cartridges that are in production...


Cartridges are produced every day by NON SAAMI members,
From wildcatters, to foreign country manufacturers, to the guy that just neck sizes and doesn't full length resize so the cartridge is SAAMI specification.

My point is I'm doing my best to reproduce SAAMI specification cases.
That's as politely as I can state my intentions as per the warning not to prang on you guys...

------------------------------------------------------

*SO, IF we can progress with the thread as intended,
I'm asking volume reloaders, and guys with good ideas to chime in...*

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Datum point, at the shoulder, determines head space.










With the case walls pushed back in to SAAMI specifications,
And the shoulder pushed back to SAAMI specifications,
The Case Over All Length (COAL) *Should* come out correctly when the neck is cut for length and proper tapers are added...

Indexing off the datum point (Shoulder) makes for a quick, accurate length trim that *Should* be correct, The reason for a fly cutter rather than a pilot/flat cutter.









Fly Cutter & Bearing/Stop.
Bearing Insert Has Shoulder Matching .223 Case.










Tool bit with tapers on case, The cutting head assembled.

This *SHOULD* make for short work of case neck length and deburr/taper work...


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## Texaspredatorhu

I no longer neck size, but many bench rest shooters do to this day. I think what you are failing to understand is that 5.56 and 223 cases are the same and are trimmed to the same length SAAMI or any other loading manual. The difference is in the chamber throats as I have shown you. So this is me being as polite as I can as to not hurt your feelings again. 

I know people such as wildcatters cook up their own stuff everyday, Remington, Winchester, Howa and so on are NOT wildcatters, what more do you need to understand that I comprehend and understand all this and you are the one spreading bum info that could potentially injure someone? 

If you really think you can come to this forum after being laughed out of your sniper and long range forums because the crock you spread, you got another thing coming. I mean no offense by any of this to anyone here but this group will shred you over and over with actual facts as they do on every thread here. You have been proven wrong over and over and all you do is start a new thread and try to conjure more sheeple into believing you. Good luck amigo.


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> You realize your drawing is a chamber drawing I hope and not a case drawing. The cases are identical except for maybe the wall thickness in NATO ammo. The difference in 5.56 and the 223 is the throat of the chamber, 223 has a shorter throat which will result in higher pressures of using the NATO ammo. Once again putting bum scoop for new reloaders. You will be the one to get someone hurt with your info.


*Yes, I'm aware it's a chamber comparison drawing.
How else are you going to point out the difference between the rounds that are the same length/nearly identical case?*

I'm also aware it shows a longer 'Throat' in the 5.56 NATO chamber.
I also know why the 5.56 NATO throat is slightly longer taper...

Perfectly safe, especially since the chamber pressures of a .223 are lower than 5.56 NATO rounds. (Post 5, Post 11)
The ONLY thing you might experience shooting .223 Rem ammo through a 5.56 NATO chamber is a slight drop in velocity since some of the expanding gasses can pass the bullet in the first milli-second of bullet movement.

I've not experienced this myself, and I've not read about it since it's probably so slight that no one bothers to mention the possibility.
As for accuracy, that would depend on the bullet you were using and how fast the olgive covered the freebore distance and hit the throat.
A long, sleek varmint bullet might not be as accurate out of a 5.56 NATO chamber, but the run of the mill FMJ and blasting ammo I doubt there would be much of a difference...

------------------------------------------

*For anyone that might doubt, here are a couple of things to look at,*

The first is a discussion of potential dangers, using 5.56 NATO *ammo* in a .223 *Chamber* rifle,
The second, the warning from SAAMI about the same thing.
Using .223 Rem ammo in a 5.56 NATO chamber/rifle is perfectly safe, contrary to what's posted above...

http://bearingarms.com/223-remington-vs-556-nato-what-you-dont-know-could-hurt-you/

An article pointing out exactly what I've been saying since the beginning...

http://saami.org/specifications_and...1-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf

SAAMI, PAGE 7.
*Chambered* for .223 Rem, DO NOT use 5.56 NATO *Ammo*.

*You WILL NOT find the same warning for shooting a 5.56 NATO CHAMBER rifle with .223 Remington Ammunition.*

Since 5.56 NATO isn't a 'Sporting Arm', you won't find much information at all except for this on 5.56 NATO...

-----------------------

*AGAIN I'LL POINT OUT, I'M CONDITIONING CASES FOR .223 REMINGTON AS PER SAAMI SPECIFICATIONS.
I'm reconditioning cases for .308 Winchester, not 7.62x51mm NATO rifles, not that it matters much.*

Now, if that's all, I'd like to get back to a reloading conversation...
I'm wasting a lot of time on a subject that has been thoroughly researched, posted ENDLESSLY on the internet, and printed in every firearms magazine for years, 
AND,
Taken into consideration when I decided to prep the cases for .223 instead of 5.56 NATO. (no goofy military primers, no crimps, no flat faced necks, ect.)


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> View attachment 52205
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RCBS, a very respectable reloading equipment manufacturer has a set of dies that are labeled both, and for a good reason.


Yes, they are full length resizing dies, exactly what I've been talking about all along.
Exactly the same thing I'm using, but mine are high tolerance carbide insert dies.

When someone civil wants to know specifically about the dies I'm using,
Or the dies they are using, then we will cover dies... The good, the bad, the ugly... Care & feeding...


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## Texaspredatorhu

Hey boss, I never said you couldn't shoot 223 in a 5.56 chamber. I simply pointed out that the difference is in the chambers and there NO REASON to trim the case. The biggest issue is the case wall thickness which will reduce capacity and create higher pressures in the 223. It has nothing to do with the length of the case, it is the chamber. So that being said if you use 223 dies and put a 5.56 case through it it will size it correctly to either chamber and you will be fine. I have done it through numerous ARs and bolt guns, never hurt a thing to include my accuracy. Congrats on the high tolerance carbide dies, they are ALL built to SAAMI specs, ALL OF THEM. This is what you no comprende, you think you know but your pulling it out of the sky. Do some more reading on the cases homie. Your trying to reinvent a wheel that doesn't need to be. Hornady, federal and many others spend millions so you don't have to! If you were as good as you think you are they would have hired you as the lead r and d person.


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## Bearfootfarm

diamondtim said:


> Small Base FL sizing dies are designed for auto-loaders and lever-actions.


They are designed for the relatively *few* guns that have problems operating with standard sized dies. 

Most people I know get by just fine with standard dies for all types of rifles


I've never had to use a set of "small base" dies. In fact, I've never even seen a set of them outside of catalogs


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## Texaspredatorhu

Here, read this and then continue on with your hogwash!

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Hey boss, I never said you couldn't shoot 223 in a 5.56 chamber. I simply pointed out that the difference is in the chambers and there NO REASON to trim the case.


The reason to full length resize is to push bloated case walls back into specification.
The reason to neck size is to push the shoulder back into specification,
And to push the neck back into a size/shape that will hold a bullet.

The bloating/stretching of the case material creates a case, that when resized, gets longer.
The walls are stretched, when resized, the material moves forward.

The trimming process simply uniforms the case to the correct specified length.
Without trimming, the case may be 'Safe', or may not be 'Safe',
But stretched means its not 'Specification' anymore.

With an indexed trimmer, if the case isn't stretched, its not cut,
If its over length, its trimmed to specification.

Its a consistancy thing,
The cases are returned to SAAMI specification, they are not 'Texas 223 1/2'.



> The biggest issue is the case wall thickness which will reduce capacity and create higher pressures in the 223.


If you want a specific answer to this, you need to be more clear, formulate a coherent question.
Barring that, cite sources where you got this idea.



> It has nothing to do with the length of the case, it is the chamber.
> So that being said if you use 223 dies and put a 5.56 case through it it will size it correctly to either chamber and you will be fine.


Correct.
The .223 Rem & 5.56 NATO cases are virtually identical outside dimentions.
The 5.56 NATO case is slightly thicker at the lower sides and base to withstand being fires in sloppy military chambers, higher chamber pressures, and violent machine gun extractors.

Base brass is slightly harder than 'Sporting' cases to survive machine gun extractors,
The upper case sides & necks are the same since they are annealed to dead soft to form the upper bottle neck and form the bullet mouth.

Military cases clearly show a deeper annealing process than civilian cases,
Annealing further down the case than *Most* 'Sporting' cases.



> I have done it through numerous ARs and bolt guns, never hurt a thing to include my accuracy.


What *YOU* do is your business.
If *YOU* build 'Texas 223-1/2' brass/rounds that's your business.
They just aren't 'SAAMI .223 Remington' Specification cases/rounds.



> Congrats on the high tolerance carbide dies, they are ALL built to SAAMI specs, ALL OF THEM.


Actually, that's not 'Specifically' true.
Anything that is formed, pressed in or out, is going to 'Rebound' or spring back out some. Anyone that has coiled a wire or bent sheet metal knows this.

The dies are made to resize the brass so the brass rebounds to (more or less) SAMMI specification.

The neck/mouth resized squeezes the mouth well under SAAMI specification,
Then the resized ball on a rod expands the neck/mouth to an approximation of SAAMI specification.

Anyone that had a die with an over size expander ball knows the bullet falls onto the mouth/neck,
Anyone with an undersized expander ball knows the bullet doesn't want to start into the case.

To unequivocally state that 'All Dies' are specifically and exactly SAMMI I'd over reaching at best.



> This is what you no comprende, you think you know but your pulling it out of the sky.
> Do some more reading on the cases homie.
> Your trying to reinvent a wheel that doesn't need to be.


Actually, what I'm doing is exactly what is required for a premium case.
If it was over reaching, there wouldn't be so many tools on the market for the processes.
There is a reason there are so many case prepration tools on the market, built to exacting specifications.
If the cases were better made, or held there shape when fired, none of that equipment would exist.

I'm just trying to automate the process to bring fired cases back to a reasonable approximation of SAAMI specification on a volume basis.



> Hornady, federal and many others spend millions so you don't have to! If you were as good as you think you are they would have hired you as the lead r and d person.


Manufacturers make NEW cases.
The closer tolerance the case, the higher the price.

What I'm doing is USED cases reconditioned to SAAMI to seriously reduce the price of a premium brass.

Winchester NEW brass, nothing special, just the basic brass for reloading is 30 cents a piece/ $30/100 in the express bags.
Lapua PREMIUM brass is OVER $77/100 count box. 
http://www.amazon.com/Lapua-Reloading-Brass-223-Remington/dp/B00PKZTT0C

There is a niche in the market between these two, and for a serious loader that doesn't want to spend a ton of time reconditioning, there should be something in the middle somewhere...
I'm currently looking at about 7.5 cents a round with current production, which could reduce with further automation.


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## MattB4

I must admit, I still fail to see why all of the efforts made by the OP to odd lot, once fired, military contract brass results in "premium" ammo. 

If you are going to prove things you need to set out a beginning to end study. You need to compare results between not doing anything special and what your changes accomplish. 

Personally, I wonder if you are not better off to stick to bulk surplus military ammo for shooting in your military style semi-auto. Rather hard to beat the price of that stuff. It seems to reliably go bang. I do not see that you have a market for your reloads.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Big pimpin' I trim my cases after sizing. What you said was you need to trim a 556 case to be the same as a 223 case. If you understand the time money value theory, you would understand that the amount of time it takes you to produce a "premium" case from fires brass is probably more expensive that buying it, because your time must be extremely expensive with your vast knowledge! I understand what a full length size does, I understand the chamber dimensions and expansion, that's why bench rest shooters use neck sizing because it's formed to the chamber. I comprende this whole process fully, I'm just pointing out your flaws in processes and practices.


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## JeepHammer

MattB4 said:


> I must admit, I still fail to see why all of the efforts made by the OP to odd lot, once fired, military contract brass results in "premium" ammo.


Not 'Ammo', reconditioned brass to SAAMI specification.
Big difference there...

There is a niche in the market between 'Premium' NEW brass, and the cleaned/resized stuff most places are selling.



> If you are going to prove things you need to set out a beginning to end study. You need to compare results between not doing anything special and what your changes accomplish.


GOAL: SAMMI specification brass, properly annealed, primer pockets uniform, trimmed to correct length, neck properly resized, proper neck tension.

Since there are only SLIGHT differences in alloy in the 'Brass', the big issues are sizing correctly, annealing and attention to details, for a reasonable price/time investment.



> Personally, I wonder if you are not better off to stick to bulk surplus military ammo for shooting in your military style semi-auto. Rather hard to beat the price of that stuff. It seems to reliably go bang. I do not see that you have a market for your reloads.


Never been able to shoot Sub-MOA with military surplus ammo.
I can do Sub-MOA with reconditioned military brass (De-Milled & annealed, properly prepared)
Virtually everyone at matches reloads, they just pay more attention to the cases, and the bullet seating depth, and the case neck tension.
That's why I'm thinking there is a niche in the market.

The government buys the very best, it's just a little harder and thicker cases.
Annealing takes care of the 'Hard' at the case shoulder/neck, Harder bottom case/rim doesn't come into play. 

Thicker isn't an issue with todays powder, you can get as hot a powder as you want.

I also do some varmint hunting, so some PREMIUM brass to load my varmint bullets into is a good thing, especially when I didn't pay $77/100 for those 'Premium' brass!
With about 7.5 cents a piece in the brass and reconditioning, that's VERY attractive over $30/100 for new, run of the mill brass, or $77/100 for 'Premium' brass that have the same dimensions as what I'm reconditioning for...

Some people just HATE military brass, some people crap on anything that's once fired... That's their view point and you aren't going to change it.
I really don't find any difference once it's annealed and properly resized all the way around, it's just a case, holds the bullet, powder & primer...
If it's proper size/neck tension, I can't find any difference between 'New-Premium' for 77 Cents each, and 7.5 cent reconditioned brass.

And you have to consider, 'Once Fired' is just that,
Once your 77 cent brass if fired, then you have to recondition that also,
but no one prangs on that brass because it has a different head stamp... 

*The most expensive, highest tolerance brass is just plain 'Once Fired' brass after the first firing cycle, 
Just like any other 'Once Fired' brass, no matter the head stamp, and needs the full reconditioning treatment again...
It's the degree of reconditioning that makes the difference, which is exactly my point...*

It's cheap and easy to clean it (more or less) and run it through a sizer die of indeterminate age/wear and call it 'Reconditioned/Ready To Load',
It seems to me the Annealing of the shoulder/neck makes the brass take the sizing die shape much closer to tolerance.
A precise, hardened die resists wear much better than 'Also Ran Discount Dies' do, ask anyone that uses high tolerance match or bench loading dies,
Trimming gives you the EXACT length to bring the case back to specification,
Primer pocket cutting removes any inconsistencies in the primer pocket due to worn dies at the factory, or firing distortions.

After those functions, can you seriously say the head stamp makes any difference?


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

If you think the government buys they best you truely do live in Narnia. Government buys from the lowest bidder, especially bulk ammo......you should know this. SAAMI doesn't have 556 because it's pressure is verified the military way not SAAMIs way. A touch of reading and you would know this. Yes head stamp still maters after your process because different manufacturers have different wall thickness. Once again a touch of reading and you would know all this. You can't shoot a 1" or smaller group at 100 yards with surplus ammo? I thought you were a sniper?


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Big pimpin' I trim my cases after sizing. What you said was you need to trim a 556 case to be the same as a 223 case.


That is correct, I do trim the case to length, And I also deburr/cut tapers into the brass mouth, just like every other case preparer.
I simply do all three cutting jobs at the same time to save time.



> If you understand the time money value theory, you would understand that the amount of time it takes you to produce a "premium" case from fires brass is probably more expensive that buying it,...


That would be the self limiting cutting process, and the automation.
Extremely fast compared to trimming on single brass,
Then deburring/chamfering the inside,
Then deburring/chamfering the outside in three different processes.

Same with uniforming primer pockets, rather than 'Swaging' the primer pockets.
Self limiting, so it CAN NOT screw up the case, and fast when automated.



> ...because your time must be extremely expensive with your vast knowledge!


That would be the self limiting and automation processes I'm working with...
Saves time and allows for bulk cases that are SAAMI specification.



> I understand what a full length size does, I understand the chamber dimensions and expansion, that's why bench rest shooters use neck sizing because it's formed to the chamber. I comprende this whole process fully,


The why the fight about PRODUCTION cases to SAAMI specifications?
Bench rifle shooters are rarely semi-auto (I don't personally know any),
And they resize to get the case to hold the next bullet IN THE SAME RIFLE.

They aren't worried about auto loaders, they aren't worried about different chambers, they don't worry about building to 'Texas 223-1/2' caliber.
I would have to consider all those issues, and I have, that's why everything is resized to SAAMI specification, with some of the processes that bench, competition & even home loaders do to their brass,
As in 'READY TO LOAD, PREMIUM'.



> I'm just pointing out your flaws in processes and practices.


No, you are arguing moot points.

1. .223 Rem is perfectly safe in 5.56 NATO chambers.

2. ANYTIME you push the case walls back in, and the neck back where it belongs, the brass gets longer, the material has to go somewhere.
This requires trimming, even if it's very slight trimming, to bring the case back to SAAMI specification.

3. More and more 'Civilian' brass (.223 headstamp) has crimped primers.
That requires a crimp removal.

4. Not all primer pockets are uniform, requiring a 'Uniforming' cut, rather than a crimp 'Swage'.

5. Firing the brass, bloating/stretching the case/shoulder/neck will harden the brass.
So will working the brass back to the correct SAAMI specification.
Annealing is the only way to soften the brass to like new elasticity.
Annealing before resizing also allows the brass to more closely form to the die keeping the case tighter tolerance as per SAAMI specifications.

6. Annealing also allows the neck of the case to hold the bullet with like new neck tension.

7. Tapering the inside of the cases is something that removes burrs, and allows for easier insertion of bullets. And it's a freebie with the neck length cutter I'm using.

8. Tapering the outside of the case neck removes burrs, makes for smoother feeding into the chamber, no square edge to hang up on anything, even momentarily.
And again, it's a freebie with the case neck cutter I'm using.

9. Attention to detail is what is 'Premium' about cases prepared the way most ACCURACY reloaders do things.
There is NOTHING that's not inconsistent with current accuracy reloading practices.
All these things, from primer pocket uniforming/crimp removal, to deburring/tapering the cases necks that isn't found in every reloading hand tool catalog, or on inclusive one at a time powered machines.

I'm simply doing it in an automated process, much faster than doing one case at a time to produce 'Premium' cases for reloading.
Self limiting automation, combined with simply mechanical jaws holding the brass 90 degrees to the cutting operations, produces a more consistent case than most inclusive machines do simply holding the case by hand against the cutting heads...

The time/money factor comes in volume of production.
There is economy in scale.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

All common reloading practices that I do, so I am not making a Texas 223.5 there yank. What I am getting at here is you throw around SAAMI spec as if it's something special that only you know how to do. Pick up a reloading manual any one and it mentions SAAMI and goes by their guidelines.i know most bench shooters shoot bolt and singles and only neck size for that reason. I know why auto loading shooters do full size. What you are attempting to do is mass produce once fired brass that is like new and call it premium. So your full length size and then trim you already removed material which means the original mass isn't there anymore and that the material had to come from somewhere so something is thinner somewhere than original. Automate all day long and you will have nothing more than debt and money in a hole because it will not be worth buying your premium brass compared to new Norma or hornady brass. If you were as good as you think you are you would be an engineer for one of these companies and my guess is your not.


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> If you think the government buys they best you truely do live in Narnia. Government buys from the lowest bidder, especially bulk ammo......you should know this. SAAMI doesn't have 556 because it's pressure is verified the military way not SAAMIs way. A touch of reading and you would know this. Yes head stamp still maters after your process because different manufacturers have different wall thickness. Once again a touch of reading and you would know all this. You can't shoot a 1" or smaller group at 100 yards with surplus ammo? I thought you were a sniper?


OUR GOVERNMENT, (can't speak for others) buys a very specific alloy brass, 
Very high grade,
And forms that brass into cases using hydraulic or scroll forming dies.

Brass arrives in coils, every coil is tested for alloy content and initial hardness.

Since the military has slightly different applications for that case, it's slightly harder and thicker at the base.
This is a process of the dies used that apply enough pressure to make the brass reach 'Plastic' point where it can flow in the dies.
The pressure process, and working the brass makes it 'Hard', as with civilian brass...

The necks are annealed to 'Dead Soft' to accept the necking and forming of the smaller bullet mouth tube.
The same process used in civilian production brass.

Since neither the case/head thickness matters with modern powders,
The hardness of the case head/lower case sides matters little since it's just a 'Cup' to hold powder/primer, there isn't any issue with that part.

Annealing the case neck returns it to dead soft, proper resizing returns the case mouth to proper bullet tension. 
Again, a wash since the shoulder/mouth thickness is the same as civilian brass,
And it's returned to dead soft for neck tension.


----------



## MattB4

JeepHammer said:


> Not 'Ammo', reconditioned brass to SAAMI specification.
> Big difference there...
> 
> ...


Well since the title of your thread is Premium *ammo* and not how to recondition reloadable military brass (you ever wonder why some militarily cases are not reloadable?) you might forgive me that I thought we were talking about ammo. 

Incidentally making a claim about accuracy improvements should have some backing up. I could claim because I turned around 3 times and chanted the Battle Hymn of the Republic during reloading that it resulted in sub MOA during shooting. Would you give it any credence? 

Oh well... marketing claims are great for selling things to people. Make sure you toss in words like tactical, improved mil-spec, battle tested, sniper approved and I am sure you will find someone to buy.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

JeepHammer said:


> OUR GOVERNMENT, (can't speak for others) buys a very specific alloy brass,
> Very high grade,
> And forms that brass into cases using hydraulic or scroll forming dies.
> 
> Brass arrives in coils, every coil is tested for alloy content and initial hardness.
> 
> Since the military has slightly different applications for that case, it's slightly harder and thicker at the base.
> This is a process of the dies used that apply enough pressure to make the brass reach 'Plastic' point where it can flow in the dies.
> The pressure process, and working the brass makes it 'Hard', as with civilian brass...
> 
> The necks are annealed to 'Dead Soft' to accept the necking and forming of the smaller bullet mouth tube.
> The same process used in civilian production brass.
> 
> Since neither the case/head thickness matters with modern powders,
> The hardness of the case head/lower case sides matters little since it's just a 'Cup' to hold powder/primer, there isn't any issue with that part.
> 
> Annealing the case neck returns it to dead soft, proper resizing returns the case mouth to proper bullet tension.
> Again, a wash since the shoulder/mouth thickness is the same as civilian brass,
> And it's returned to dead soft for neck tension.


The wall thickness is the whole point that's why the pressure is higher in a 223 chamber than a 556 chamber. Less area for boom to take place within the case and a smaller throat. God bless do more research, Yankee!


----------



## JeepHammer

Yeah, no one has got off to the ammo part...
I reload for myself and some friends, but production ammo 'RETAIL' ammo isn't something I'm ready to step off into yet.
Too much liability without working out every detail.

Case conditioning is the first step, and VERY little liability since I wouldn't be liable for the end loading or use.

The commercial case conditioning machines are OUTRAGOUS priced, and some include steps I'm not convinced are necessary,
And some DON'T do things I consider necessary for premium brass.

The two places I contacted wanted up to $20,000 and had between 1 & 2 year waiting lists...

I don't know what the ammo/brass/components market is going to do in a year or two from now, 
And I have enough time to build exactly what I want since most of the cutting/sizing tools are commercially available,
Building a frame/drive assembly isn't that difficult when the high precision parts are all available commercially, and for mostly reasonable prices.

The presses are NOT reasonable priced, they have jumped up in price about $500% since the 'Obamas cumin fer yer guns!' crap,
And the government buying up over 2 billion rounds of ammo throwing the commercial makers into fits...
That government contract money beats commercial retail sales any day!


----------



## JeepHammer

MattB4 said:


> Well since the title of your thread is Premium *ammo* and not how to recondition reloadable military brass (you ever wonder why some militarily cases are not reloadable?) you might forgive me that I thought we were talking about ammo.


No forgiveness nessary,
I should have labeled the thread 'Cases', but I didn't anticipate such resistance to common, accepted standards, 
I thought the tread would die or would progress faster.

You can't anticipate someone bestowing magical/mystical properties to a small piece of brass alloy,
Or that common, accepted practices/standards would be so misinterpreted and/ignored.



> Incidentally making a claim about accuracy improvements should have some backing up.
> I could claim because I turned around 3 times and chanted the Battle Hymn of the Republic during reloading that it resulted in sub MOA during shooting. Would you give it any credence?


Would every match shooter that doesn't have an ammo sponsor do?
I don't know a single match shooter that doesn't reload,
And I don't know one match shooter that doesn't pay particular attention to the case preparation steps that I laid out.

I would venture a guess that every reloading match shooter has precision dies,
A case prep center, case gauges, primer pocket gauges, and either toss the brass after 5 or so loads, or anneals the necks.

I haven't been able to CONSISTANTLY, or even very often been able to shoot MOA with military rounds,
Simply because of the inconsistencies in the loaded rounds.
If a guy is happy with a 3" group @ 100 yards, then there is a ton of military surplus on the market right now,
And no need to reload at all.

Just like every other match shooter I know, taking that once fired military brass,
Reconditioning it with care, attention to detail, it shoots as well as any other reloaded brass on the market.



> Oh well... marketing claims are great for selling things to people. Make sure you toss in words like tactical, improved mil-spec, battle tested, sniper approved and I am sure you will find someone to buy.


Why would it be a 'Claim' if the brass were actually SAAMI specification, and marketed as such?
Why would it be a 'Claim' if the brass had the custom reloaders touches,
For instance, annealed case necks for consistant neck tension, tapers cut in the mouth for flat based bullets to load easier,
Outside taper to falicitate chambering,
How would that NOT be 'Premium' touches?

Far beyond what basic SAAMI specifications require, so how is that NOT 'Premium'?

Like I said before, but bears repeating,
Some guys just don't like 'Once Fired' brass.
This wouldn't be for them...

Some guys believe military or governmental brass is inferior.
I have no idea how the head stamp would make any difference in a hunk of brass once its reconditioned to exacting standards, but a lot of things don't make sense to me, like fear of clowns, fear of milkshakes, Taylor Swift to name a few...
This wouldn't be something they would be interested in...

For a reloader that wanted a really accurately reconditioned brass for a reasonable price (most hand loaders) this would be a deal, without the equipment or the time investment...


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Whoa whoa turbo, your getting your Yankee panties in a wad here. If military brass and ammo is the best why can't you shoot MOA with it? Why wouldn't I buy surplus if the government gets the best stuff? Your contradicting yourself here. 

If you full length size your case and trim afterwards like most reloaders do you just returned it to SAAMI specs! You are getting way too wrapped around the axles about what you think SAAMI is. Any die manufacturer makes their dies according to SAAMI specs. One more time, ALL DIE MANUFACTURERS MAKE THEIR DIES TO SAAMI SPECS. 

Head stamp matters all day everyday if you are a match shooter. Different manufacturers have different case thicknesses. This results in different volume which may alter the speed of the bullet. This is all very basic reloading stuff here Yank. So if you go FAR beyond what SAAMI wants then you are not within SAAMI specs! Common sense and research will show you all these things. You are a walking talking or typing in this case contradiction. Have a blessed evening Yank.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

FYI- most match shooters use the same brass and neck size so it remains tight in the chamber because like we agreed earlier most match shooters run bolt or single action, generally not mixing head stamps for the exact reasons I stated earlier as well. 

Funny thing here, why not turn the necks too?


----------



## MattB4

JeepHammer said:


> ...
> You can't anticipate someone bestowing magical/mystical properties to a small piece of brass alloy,
> Or that common, accepted practices/standards would be so misinterpreted and/ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> Would every match shooter that doesn't have an ammo sponsor do?
> I don't know a single match shooter that doesn't reload,
> And I don't know one match shooter that doesn't pay particular attention to the case preparation steps that I laid out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct, I did not anticipate where the magical properties to your premium brass comes from. I simply asked that you had some proof to your assertions. Where is your shooting tests? Using a strawman of match shooters reloading for better accuracy does not prove what you are doing unless it is exactly the same thing. You have argued repeatedly that your methods are better. 

Your whole premise is that you are taking surplus military brass and somehow turning it into "premium" brass. At the same time you keep arguing that it is being returned to spec. This is contradictory if you can not see it. For one, once your remove the crimped in primer, you can not restore the crimp. Thus it is not to spec for military ammo.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

JeepHammer said:


> OUR GOVERNMENT, (can't speak for others) buys a very specific alloy brass,
> Very high grade,
> And forms that brass into cases using hydraulic or scroll forming dies.
> 
> Brass arrives in coils, every coil is tested for alloy content and initial hardness.
> 
> Since the military has slightly different applications for that case, it's slightly harder and thicker at the base.
> This is a process of the dies used that apply enough pressure to make the brass reach 'Plastic' point where it can flow in the dies.
> The pressure process, and working the brass makes it 'Hard', as with civilian brass...
> 
> The necks are annealed to 'Dead Soft' to accept the necking and forming of the smaller bullet mouth tube.
> The same process used in civilian production brass.
> 
> Since neither the case/head thickness matters with modern powders,
> The hardness of the case head/lower case sides matters little since it's just a 'Cup' to hold powder/primer, there isn't any issue with that part.
> 
> Annealing the case neck returns it to dead soft, proper resizing returns the case mouth to proper bullet tension.
> Again, a wash since the shoulder/mouth thickness is the same as civilian brass,
> And it's returned to dead soft for neck tension.





JeepHammer said:


> The reason to full length resize is to push bloated case walls back into specification.
> The reason to neck size is to push the shoulder back into specification,
> And to push the neck back into a size/shape that will hold a bullet.
> 
> The bloating/stretching of the case material creates a case, that when resized, gets longer.
> The walls are stretched, when resized, the material moves forward.
> 
> The trimming process simply uniforms the case to the correct specified length.
> Without trimming, the case may be 'Safe', or may not be 'Safe',
> But stretched means its not 'Specification' anymore.
> 
> With an indexed trimmer, if the case isn't stretched, its not cut,
> If its over length, its trimmed to specification.
> 
> Its a consistancy thing,
> The cases are returned to SAAMI specification, they are not 'Texas 223 1/2'.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a specific answer to this, you need to be more clear, formulate a coherent question.
> Barring that, cite sources where you got this idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.
> The .223 Rem & 5.56 NATO cases are virtually identical outside dimentions.
> The 5.56 NATO case is slightly thicker at the lower sides and base to withstand being fires in sloppy military chambers, higher chamber pressures, and violent machine gun extractors.
> 
> Base brass is slightly harder than 'Sporting' cases to survive machine gun extractors,
> The upper case sides & necks are the same since they are annealed to dead soft to form the upper bottle neck and form the bullet mouth.
> 
> Military cases clearly show a deeper annealing process than civilian cases,
> Annealing further down the case than *Most* 'Sporting' cases.
> 
> 
> 
> What *YOU* do is your business.
> If *YOU* build 'Texas 223-1/2' brass/rounds that's your business.
> They just aren't 'SAAMI .223 Remington' Specification cases/rounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, that's not 'Specifically' true.
> Anything that is formed, pressed in or out, is going to 'Rebound' or spring back out some. Anyone that has coiled a wire or bent sheet metal knows this.
> 
> The dies are made to resize the brass so the brass rebounds to (more or less) SAMMI specification.
> 
> The neck/mouth resized squeezes the mouth well under SAAMI specification,
> Then the resized ball on a rod expands the neck/mouth to an approximation of SAAMI specification.
> 
> Anyone that had a die with an over size expander ball knows the bullet falls onto the mouth/neck,
> Anyone with an undersized expander ball knows the bullet doesn't want to start into the case.
> 
> To unequivocally state that 'All Dies' are specifically and exactly SAMMI I'd over reaching at best.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, what I'm doing is exactly what is required for a premium case.
> If it was over reaching, there wouldn't be so many tools on the market for the processes.
> There is a reason there are so many case prepration tools on the market, built to exacting specifications.
> If the cases were better made, or held there shape when fired, none of that equipment would exist.
> 
> I'm just trying to automate the process to bring fired cases back to a reasonable approximation of SAAMI specification on a volume basis.
> 
> 
> 
> Manufacturers make NEW cases.
> The closer tolerance the case, the higher the price.
> 
> What I'm doing is USED cases reconditioned to SAAMI to seriously reduce the price of a premium brass.
> 
> Winchester NEW brass, nothing special, just the basic brass for reloading is 30 cents a piece/ $30/100 in the express bags.
> Lapua PREMIUM brass is OVER $77/100 count box.
> http://www.amazon.com/Lapua-Reloading-Brass-223-Remington/dp/B00PKZTT0C
> 
> There is a niche in the market between these two, and for a serious loader that doesn't want to spend a ton of time reconditioning, there should be something in the middle somewhere...
> I'm currently looking at about 7.5 cents a round with current production, which could reduce with further automation.


As far as the thickness of the case you are my source! You said that military cases are thicker. 

You also said you HAVE to trim a 556 case before sizing to make it a 223, which is dead wrong. 

Keep on keepin' on yank!


----------



## JeepHammer

I HAD NO IDEA THIS WOULD HAVE TO GO THIS BASIC.

---------------

Actually, since 2012 the government has been making US military 5.56 NATO cases to EXACTLY the .223 Remington Specifications.
Something I just found out about.

Explains why a scale to sort military from civilian cases didn't work for me, as mentioned earlier.
Saves me time, same case, no sorting required.

It also throws your arguments about case volume right out the window,
Which wasn't valid from the beginning.
The difference was slightly steeper case neck angles in some chambers,
And the MUCH faster burning/higher pressure powder used in 5.56 NATO rounds.
Case volume had NOTHING to do with it from the very beginning...

-------------------

BASIC RELOADING, 101, FROM THE BEGINNING FOR THOSE HAVING ISSUES WITH THE DISCUSSION...

*The 'CASE' is just that, the container for primer, powder and bullet.*

Chamber pressure is determined in a lesser extent by case neck angle, bullet weight, chamber throating, primer used, 
And to a *MUCH* greater extent, the burn rate of the powder used.

*LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN,
THE BIGGEST FACTOR IN CHAMBER PRESSURE IS THE BURN RATE OF THE PROPELLANT.
FAST BURING PROPELLANTS CREATE MORE CHAMBER PRESSURE,
WHILE SLOWER BURNING PROPELLANTS PRODUCE LOWER CHAMBER PRESSURES,
ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL.*

There are EXTENSIVE load data books published, both in print with pictures,
And on line with Videos,
I might be a good idea to check into some of that load data...

-----------------

*ALL CHAMBERS ARE LARGER THAN THE BRASS CASE OF THE CARTRIDGE. AGAIN, NO EXCEPTIONS.*


This is simple mechanics,
The cartridge simply WOULD NOT FIT into a chamber smaller than the cartridge.

That *Shouldn't* be hard to understand... so I'm wondering why it's so hard for a couple of people to grasp...

The cartridge simply MUST be smaller than the chamber to fit INTO the chamber.
With that in mind,
The second part of this is also simple mechanics...

*EVERY COMMON CARTRIDGE CASE WILL EXPAND WHEN FIRED THROUGH A .223 OR 5.56 FIREARM. Again, NO EXCEPTIONS.*

The pressures are great enough to blow apart any brass UNSUPPORTED case,
So the chamber is the 'Support' that keeps .223 & 5.56 from exploding into unusable scrap.


*COMMON SENSE AND BASIC MECHANICS, PART THREE.

THE EXPANDING BRASS WILL MORE OR LESS TAKE ON THE SIZE LIMITATIONS OF THE CHAMBER. 
Again, regarding .223 & 5.56, Chamber pressures are high enough there are no exceptions with common .223 or 5.56 ammunition.*

-------------------------------

*KEEPING THAT BASIC MECHANICS IN MIND, THAT THE CASE WILL EXPAND TO MORE OR LESS THE SIZE/SHAPE OF THE CHAMBER...*

Just like anyone else that full length resizes military cases, I find military cases to be a shade, slightly, very little bit longer after resizing.

5.56 NATO has higher chamber pressures, which makes sure the case expands to the limiting factors of the chamber, so 5.56 NATO are often more 'Chamber Formed' when the exit the chamber.
Again, common sense & basic mechanics...

----------------------

It's the 'Once Fired' vs. 'New' thing all over again...
NEW already has the case sides pushed in, the shoulder pushed back, and was trimmed to length.

ONCE FIRED is just that, a fired case.
The CHAMBER to a greater extent, and the powder/pressure load to a lesser extent, determine how expanded the case gets.

Since ALL common .223 & 5.56 loads produce enough pressure to expand the case, Every case will expand. No Exceptions.
The pressure loads are simply greater than the case structural strength,
The CHAMBER is what stops the case from further expansion.

This is simple mechanics of firing a soft, non-furious case in a steel chamber,
The case will more or less conform to the chamber...

-----------------------------

I would assume, like about everyone else does, this is from being fired in 5.56 NATO chambered MACHINE GUNS, which have 'Looser' (read: SLOPPY) chambers.
Something that fires 600 to 1,200 rounds a MINUTE will have a larger chamber because of simple wear,
And from compression of the metal the chamber is made of.

Some 'Machine Guns' have excessively 'Loose' tolerances in the chambers to falcate the chambering of dirty rounds (Combat Conditions), 
And to prevent 'Failure To Feed' or 'Jam' situations.

This allows the case to expand even more, sometimes even non-concentric expansion.

You CAN NOT tell by the human eye exactly which cases were machine gun fired, Infantry rifle fired, 
Or which firearms had NON-Standard chambers, or worn chambers.

This REQUIRES full length resize of the case, which will push the case sides back into specification, the shoulder back where it belongs.
Since you moved metal in a closed, specific diameter die, with a closed 'Bottom' (Shell Plate/Press Ram),
The ONLY way the metal can go is 'UP'.

This simply makes the case slightly LONGER.
Since you CAN NOT tell by the human eye which cases are 'Just Right',
And which cases are longer,
In volume production, you simply trim ALL CASES to bring them back into specification.
A powered, self limiting, trimmer makes this operation FASTER than trying to run each case through a 'Gauge' and identify the cases that are over length,
Then trim the over length cases by hand...

Each case takes about 2 seconds to trim to length if they are oversized,
IF they aren't oversized, some trimmers will cut a reloading facilitating taper into case neck, 
AND, that same trimmer will deburr the cut in the same 2 second process.

Absolutely NO QUESION if the case is trimmed to the correct length with a self limiting power trimmer.










Just a few of the power trimmers that index off the SHOULDER of the case, at the Datum Point, where manufacturers, including the US Military, index from for fast & accurate trimming...

VIDEO: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...33B1760C0B91D54FF78433B17&FORM=VDQVAP&fsscr=0





























--------------------------------


*TO REVIEW COMMON .223 & 5.56 REASONS FOR CASE RECONDITINING...

1. CARTRIDGE IS SMALLER THAN CHAMBER, IT HAS TO BE SMALLER TO ENTER THE CHAMBER.
A CARTRIDGE LARGER THAN THE CHAMBER SIMPLY WOULDN'T FIT IN THE CHAMBER.
NO EXCEPTIONS.

2. CASE EXPANDS WHEN FIRED. 
NO EXCEPTIONS.

3. WITH 'ONCE FIRED' BRASS, YOU HAVE NO IDEA AT ALL WHAT FIREARM THAT BRASS CAME OUT OF, OR WHAT THE CHAMBER CONDITION WAS IN...

4. EXPANDED 'ONCE FIRED' BRASS IS NOT ANY SPECIFICATION,
SHOULD NOT BE FIRED WITHOUT FULL LENGHT RESIZING.*
(Probably won't hold a bullet fast anyway)

*5. WHEN THE CASE IS RESIZED IN A DIE, IT BECOMES LONGER.
THE MORE OUT OF TOLERANCE/SPECIFICATION THE CHAMBER WAS, THE LONGER THE CASE WILL GET.
NO EXCEPTIONS.

6. A RESIZED CASE IS LONGER, NEEDS A TRIM TO BRING IT BACK INTO SPECIFICATION.
The ONLY exception is if the case was shorter than specification to begin with, which occasionally happens.

7. POWER TRIMMERS MAKE TRIMMING A 2 SECOND JOB THAT NORMALLY PRODUCES 3C UTS AT ONCE, NO MANUAL DEBURRING REQUIRED.
TRIM TO LENGHT, INTERNAL TAPER/DEBURRING, EXTERNAL TAPER/DEBURRING.

Manual trimming is a three step process, 1. The Trim To Length, 2. The Internal Deburring, 3. The external Deburring.

8. WITH PROPERLY SIZED AND ADJUSTED RESIZING DIES, A SELF-LIMITING POWER TRIMMER REMOVES THE NEED TO GAUGE EACH AND EVERY CASE.
Again, saving a BUNCH of time...

9. ONCE PROPERLY RESIZED TO SPECIFICATION, TRIMMED TO SPECIFICATION, THE CASE WILL BE SAFE TO LOAD FOR ANY FIREARM CHAMBERD FOR THAT SPECIFIC ROUND.

10. SAFETY OF THE LOADED ROUND WILL BE ENTIRELY BASED ON THE BULLET YOU USE, THE SEATING DEPTH OF THAT BULLET, THE PRIMER USED, AND THE PROPELLANT/WEIGHT INSERTED INTO THE CASE.
Extensive load data charts available from every propellant manufacturer, from reloading supply companies (such as RCBS, Lee, ect.) to determine 'Safe' loads, bullet weights, primer types, ect.

11. ANY DEVATION FROM THIS BASIC PROCEEDURE SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPED BY ANYONE THAT DOES NOT HAVE EXTENSIVE EXPERENCE IN FIREARMS SAFETY.

*


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Ok Yankee, great principles. If the OUTSIDE of the cases are exactly the same as they have been forever not since 2012 and the 556 has a thicker base it would be on the inside to be the same dimension. YOU SAID it has thicker walks towards the base because of machine guns, THAT WILL REDUCE VOLUME. This is simple physics here bud. The 556 case was never longer the cartridge was not the case. Simple analogy here, fill a 20oz glass bottle with 5oz of water and put a fire cracker in it, it just pops and splashes no damage to the bottle. Now full the same bottle with 20oz of water and put a firecracker in it and it will almost always break the glass because there is no room for expansion. If you think all manufacturers build their cases the same your wrong. The outsides are the same but the thickness won't be. 

No kidding the cartridge has to be smaller than the chamber?!?! You don't say! You really are of a much more supreme intelligence. 

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FULL LENGTH SIZE EVERY TIME! MATCH SHOOTERS DO NOT GENERALLY FULL SIZE SO IT STAYS TIGHT IN THE CHAMBER!!!!

It becomes longer when you size it? Another one that proves you are beyond many people intelligence! 

The reason you are not supposed to shoot the 556 in 223 chambers is because the wall thickness and the throat that is half the length. That is their reasoning. If you size military brass to 223 specs and load it to a max round you can have issues because of the reduced volume. You yourself said it was thicker. 

Show me one company that says you cannot shoot a reloaded round that has not been full length sized. There probably isn't because they make neck dies for a reason. 

Deburring is common sense.

If you are really going through all this trouble to create so called premium brass why not turn the necks to true them up as well. Now that might make it premium once fired brass. 

If you think your half as good as you are you would be working for a name brand company as someone important in their food chain, but instead you probably sit in your garage and provide beer for people that only listen to you to drink your beer. God bless Yankee and enjoy your evening!


----------



## JeepHammer

*THE THREE CARDNAL RULES FOR RELOADING...

1. APPLICATION.

2. APPLICATION.

3. APPLICATION!*

Since there is a basic lack of understanding here,
Lets start from the VERY beginning...

Many 'Wildcatters' had messed around with a fast, light weight .22 caliber bullet in a 'High Pressure' center fire cartridge, there were several variations in .22 cal center fire that provided outstanding accuracy (varmint hunting, extremely precise 'Bench Rifle' applications.

Cheap to shoot, not abusive to the shoulder, and fast/accurate.

According to most accepted sources, RCBS/Speer Reloading manual, The NRA 'Reloaders Handbook', US Department of Defense, ect.

The .223 was developed between 1957 & 1959 at the request of the Continental Army Command.
I was standardized by the Army as the "5.56mm Ball Cartridge, M193" in Feb. 1964.

In Jan. 1964, Remington introduced it as a commercial round, dubbed ".223 Remington".

Military Rifles had a barrel rifling twist rate of 1 Turn in 14 Inches (1/14')
This did NOT stabilize the long, boat tail military bullet at long range.
The barrel twist rate was changed to 1 Turn in 12 inches (1/12")
There were 1 Turn in 9" (1/9") rifles produced,
Longer, heavier bullets continued to be adopted by the military, and the rifling twist rate was changed again to 1 Turn in 7.5" (1/7.5").

Some military bullets can reach above 70 Grains.

-----

The Military 5.56x45mm NATO version produces SIGNIFICANTLY MORE CHAMBER PRESSURE since it uses a much faster burn rate of propellant.

------

TECHNICAL DATA NOTICE. (f you break into a rash at technical data, skip down)

The 5.56mm NATO rifles have a pretty big difference in chambers, allowing for a much LONGER/HEAVIER bullet that .223 Remington was intended to use.
The 5.56mm Chamber has a longer 'Leade' space between bullet and rifling, allowing for a longer/heavier bullet to be properly chambered without being jammed into the rifling.

A bullet is often measured to the 'Ogive', the point on the bullet behind the 'Point' or 'Nose' where the bullet becomes large enough to contact rifling.










There is also a 'COAL', (Cartridge Overall All Length), which is a limiting factor of what will fit into a standard magazine. With NATO rounds, this is 57.40mm, or about 2.260 Inches.
'COL', (Case Overall Length) should not exceed 1.760" or 44.70mm.

Since the bullet MUST be 5.56mm/.224 Diameter, All else being equal, 
The 'Ogive' must be pushed forward, and more 'Leade' or 'Free Bore' must be cut into the chamber to accommodate that mass.

To put it another way, all things being equal,
Adding mass to a cylinder, the cylinder MUST get longer to accommodate the extra mass.

A 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle will have a longer 'Leade' to accommodate the longer/heavier bullet.

CHAMBER DIAGRAMS, 5.56 vs .223.










A 5.56mm chambered rifle WILL shoot .223 Rem cartridges,
The normally shorter .223 Rem bullet will simply 'Jump' a longer distance into the rifling.

*A 5.56mm cartridge should NEVER be fired in a .223 chambered rifle!*

Some READING...

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/rifles/ar-15/5-56-and-223-are-they-different/

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/3/4/223-remington-vs-556-whats-in-a-name/


*IN SHORT,
THE 5.56x45mm NATO ROUND IS MUCH HIGHER PRESSURE, AND OFTEN TIMES HAS A LONGER BASE TO OGIVE LENGHT THAN .223 REM CHAMBERED RIFLES,
5.56 NATO SPECIFICATION AMMO SHOULD NEVER BE FIRED IN A RIFLE CHAMBERED .223 REMINGTON!*

*Although the cases are virtually identical, RELOADERS should be aware of the differences in powder burn rates, charge loads & bullet weights/ogives when loading 5.56 military brass for .223 Chambered rifles.*

-------------------

The .223 Remington was advertised as a 'Varmint' & Small Game rifle.
The 'Standard' .223 Remington round offered was a 35 Grain bullet, 
(where the military hasn't used anything lighter than 52 grains for the 5.56mm version)

For years, the 35 to 45 grain .223 Remington bullets were working VERY well for Prairie Dogs, Ground Hogs/Wood Chucks, Coyotes and other small game/varmints.

As of late, there is a trend towards big heavy bullets and shooting excessively long ranges with the .223, Something that the round wasn't designed for, and other rounds do exceedingly well.

*IF* You are target shooting, varmint or small game hunting, the .223 Remington chambered barrels *Should* probably use the traditional .223 Remington lighter weight bullets to avoid any problems...

RELOADERS should probably stick to .223 Remington reloading data, taking care NOT to get loads up to the pressures, and bullet weights, of a 5.56 NATO round to stay safe and prevent any damage/issues with the firearm.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

I understand fully. It is you who is confused by SAAMI, MOA and many other things out there. If you read your second link you would know about the thicker case wall. 

Cartridge overall length is NOT 45mm or 1.77 inches, that is the CASE length. Trim length is 1.750 and a cartridge(COL) of 2.250-2.260 with a 62 grain pill. 

Yank, I cook my own loads all day everyday and I shoot plenty good and I would be willing to put my money where my mouth is any day of the week. 

Once again I ask why no neck turning on this premium brass? If your so concerned about the best brass and best accuracy m, you have test to mention neck turning. 

At the end of the day, I will take your tag line on the firing line forum to heart. The Internet has info that you get what you pay for from experts. 

If you really thought you knew all there is to about this you wouldn't even be on this site you would work for hornady or some other big name company or have a sponsorship for matches. My guess is you don't, you try to spread you mind washing bs here and when you get called you go deeper into a hole. 

So in closing, application, aplication, aplication....submit one and get a real job other than thinking your someone who knows more than everyone else. As far as I'm concerned you know jack and squat when it comes to common reloading or long range shooting. 

Have a great evening my Yankee friend.


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Ok Yankee,


Insult I assume.
I never get called 'Yankee' unless any common rational discussion has failed.



> great principles.


I can't take credit. It's basic common sense coming from reloaders for the past 100 years or so.



> If the OUTSIDE of the cases are exactly the same as they have been forever not since 2012 and the 556 has a thicker base it would be on the inside to be the same dimension.


2012 is when the military/governmental agencies adopted the lighter case.
The base of a 5.56 NATO round has always been HARDER than civilian rounds.
Mostly to withstand the extractors/ejectors of machine guns.
Keeps from ripping the extraction rim off the round.

As for your theory, pretty much correct.
A cylinder can not add mass without becoming longer, or in this case, filling the interior propellant cavity slightly.

Anyone that has cut a military case cross section, and there are THOUSANDS of pictures of this, will show a slightly thicker bottom section in a military case.
This changed in 2012 without my knowledge, probably due to the civilian companies pumping out 2.4 billion rounds for homeland security, a governmental agency, 
And in 15 years of war in two different countries, I know for a fact that General Dynamics got a HUGE military contract for ammunition.
I know for a fact that Federal got a HUGE military contract.
Don't know about the other civilian manufacturers.



> YOU SAID it has thicker walks towards the base because of machine guns, THAT WILL REDUCE VOLUME.


Yes I did say that. It's fact up until about 2012.



> This is simple physics here bud.


Um, the name is not 'Bud'... Or 'Yankee'...



> The 556 case was never longer the cartridge was not the case.


Correct, the 'Cartridge was not the case'. The Case is the case, the Cartridge is a loaded round, case, primer, propellant, bullet is a 'Cartridge'.

OK, this doesn't make much sense, but I think I know where you are going.



> The case was never longer...


Not True. 
Since we are talking about 'ONCE FIRED BRASS' that has to be resized, and resizing makes the case longer, the ONCE FIRED cases ARE longer...

Remember, RELOADING thread, not new production.



> Simple analogy here, fill a 20oz glass bottle with 5oz of water and put a fire cracker in it, it just pops and splashes no damage to the bottle.


That would depend entirely on the bottle, the size of the fire cracker...
My firecrackers would break the bottle... ANY BOTTLE...



> Now full the same bottle with 20oz of water and put a firecracker in it and it will almost always break the glass because there is no room for expansion.


Flawed analogy.
1. Fire Cracker on top the water, the fire cracker jumps out of the bottle.
2. Fire Cracker IN the water, water jumps out of the bottle.
3. Fire Cracker in WATER creates a HYDRAILIC SHOCK against the glass.
No liquids in a firearm chamber.
4. What's the thickness/strength of the bottle?
Do you pick a bottle at random, or do you use a bottle designed to contain the fire cracker? Or do you pick a bottle that will survive a small concussion but break with a larger concussion? (Rig the test)
5. Do you use a fire cracker with the same burn rate of powder?
That would be flawed since chamber pressure is clearly dictated by the load you are rolling. 5.56 NATO uses a MUCH faster burning/higher pressure powder than .223 Rem loads do,
Either by increasing/decreasing charge weights, or by using a faster/slower burning powder.



> If you think all manufacturers build their cases the same your wrong. The outsides are the same but the thickness won't be.


That is *Almost* correct.
The cases dimensions are carved in stone for SAAMI specification cases, both inside and outside.

Very slight variances are inevitable as dies wear, temperature of equipment expands & contracts metal parts, ect.

It has more to do with the closely guarded trade secrets I'm not privy to,
Which is why I don't MANUFACTURE cases.
Alloy percentage contents, Case heat treating/hardness will be the biggest differences I see in cases from different manufacturers.



> No kidding the cartridge has to be smaller than the chamber?!?! You don't say!


I don't say, 
PHSYICS DICTATES that two solid objects (mass) can not occupy the same space at the same time.
Over time, I've found that to be true...

That means one solid can't be larger than the hole you are trying to put it into.



> You really are of a much more supreme intelligence.


Nope, just practical. It's a waste of my time to try and get a larger 'Peg' into a smaller 'Hole'...
But I appreciate the vote of confidence.



> YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FULL LENGTH SIZE EVERY TIME!


Then every reloading book ever published is wrong in your opinion...
EVERY case has to be resized when it comes from an unknown firearm, SIMPLY FOR SAFETY REASONS.
Again, that whole 'ONCE FIRED' thing you can't seem to get a grip on...



> MATCH SHOOTERS DO NOT GENERALLY FULL SIZE SO IT STAYS TIGHT IN THE CHAMBER!!!!


Now, would that be the 'Match Shooters' that pick up the brass and keep it to fire in the same rifle again?
That would hardly be 'UNKNOWN, ONCE FIRED' brass.

And as a rule, all the SEMI-AUTO match shooters I know (Service Rifle, Three Gun Matches, Ect.) Resize every case.
Reasoning is it will feed better when resized, and they can never tell when they get 'Pick Up' brass the brass came from their specific rifle.

You don't get to pick up your brass immediately in some matches, you get what is laying there when they DO let you police up brass, so you get a mix.

Also, having run 3 gun matches, and service rifle competitions, I ALWAYS have a second rifle with me in the event my semi-auto stops cycling.
That would be a SECOND rifle you were trying to run brass from the FIRST rifle through...

I don't know where you got the idea that match shooters all run bolt actions.
Bench Rifles are almost exclusively bolt guns, but it's a mix of everything in some matches, and in some (speed) matches, it's exclusively auto-loaders.



> It becomes longer when you size it?


Correct.
The bottom of the case is barred from movement by shell holder/press ram,
The sides are moving in, coming back to specification dictated by the dies,
The ONLY place that stretched brass can go is 'UP'.

Unless you have a PROVEABLE alternative theory, I'll stick with the experts
AND common sense, 
AND practical experience.



> Another one that proves you are beyond many people intelligence!


Glad I could help clear up the misconceptions you had.
Brass is somewhat viscous, it has to go somewhere,
And now that you know it doesn't 'Miracle' off into the nether regions, you now know what to do with the excess when you find it.



> The reason you are not supposed to shoot the 556 in 223 chambers is because the wall thickness and the throat that is half the length.


Yeah, I thought we cleared up that case wall thickness thing already, but OK...

*The BIGGEST reason you shouldn't shoot 5.56 NATO in a .223 Rem chamber is about 5,000 PSI too much pressure!*

.223 SAAMI dictates 55,000 PSI.
5.56 NATO is about 60,000 PSI measured at the same point in the case as SAAMI does, although NATO and SAAMI measure at different points.
It's still about 5,000 PSI too much for the .223 Rem chamber.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/rifles/ar-15/5-56-and-223-are-they-different/

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/3/4/223-remington-vs-556-whats-in-a-name/

The second biggest reason is CIVILIAN .223 Remington was originally designed for a small, short, light weight bullet,

The MILITARY 5.56 NATO uses a long/heavy hunk of copper/lead/steel that more or less plugs up the barrel in a .223 Remington chamber, driving the pressures even higher.



> That is their reasoning.


"THEIR" WHO? 
The tooth fairy? 
Unicorns? 
The Lolly Pop Guild? 
Socalist Snow Plows with "OBAMMERS AFTER UR GUNS!" teams inside?

What is the "THEIR" you are talking about/referencing?
You aren't giving references, or being clear in the slightest...
You demand reference for EVERYTHING from me on all counts,
The least you should do is provide clear, concise text and references in return.



> If you size military brass to 223 specs and load it to a max round you can have issues because of the reduced volume. You yourself said it was thicker.


Volume in AIR SPACE doesn't equate to hydraulic pressure since liquids are NOT compressible...
You are 'ASSUMING' the open air space is somehow going to overcome the 55,000 or 60,000 PSIG that is created by the burning propellant...

All other factors being equal,
The BURN RATE OF THE PROPELLANT is going to determine the maximum POTENTIAL pressure...

THIS WOULD BE THE SCIENTIFIC 'POTENTIAL', not the general use 'Potential'.
In a closed container, NO EXITS, the POTENTIAL PRESSURE would be the 'TERMINAL PEAK', the MAXIMUM any given propellant could achieve,
The absolute MAXIMUM before it cooled and contracted.

The 'EFFECTIVE' pressure will depend on how easily the bullet slides out of the case and into the rifling,
AND,
How fast the bullet picks up speed (coefficient of friction) creating more VOLUME the same pressure has to fill...

Roll an oversized ball bearing into that throat/leade in the chamber, stick a loaded case in and you WILL achieve the maximum pressure the ACTION/CHAMBER can stand.
When it can't stand the pressure anymore, it will fail and let the pressure out into OUTSIDE, UNLIMITED VOLUME...

As it stands, a big, heavy 5.56 copper/lead/steel plug probably shouldn't be wedged into a .223 chamber,
THEN, you turn loose the propellant, 5,000 PSI above what that chamber was SAFELY designed to hold back...

I'd call that a BAD IDEA!

And it has little or NOTHING to do with the case volume,
It has to do with a big heavy bullet being wedged into a chamber that's too short for it, and turning loose EXCESSIVE PRESSURE PROPELLANT behind that big heavy bullet.



> Show me one company that says you cannot shoot a reloaded round that has not been full length sized.


EVERY firearms manufacturer tells you to use the CORRECT AMMO FOR THE FIREARM.
'CORRECT' would be SAMMI specification if it's a 'Civilian' firearm, since they are REQUIRED to chamber the firearms to SAAMI specifications.
A blown out case is NOT SAAMI specification, and therefore NOT CORRECT AMMUNTION.



> There probably isn't because they make neck dies for a reason.


Sure there is a reason, for guys that know what they are doing and know the dangers of off specification ammo.
Not exactly something I would recommend for novice reloaders or anyone that wasn't technically versed in the dangers of off specification ammunition.

As a side note, every reloading manual tells you NOT to exceed posted 'SAFE' data, but there are a TON of guys that do it every day...
Every reloading manual tells you a MAXIMUM length of the case, and to trim over length cases, but there are people that don't trim no matter how long the case gets...
Every reloading manual tells you the exact specifications for SAAMI specification ammunition, but guys neck size, shoot blown out cases, don't trim, don't even own a case gauge, and they reload regularly...



> Deburring is common sense.


I agree.



> If you are really going through all this trouble to create so called premium brass why not turn the necks to true them up as well. Now that might make it premium once fired brass.


You know, I've considered that...
The issue I run into is that once the brass/neck is resized, most brass is already at SAAMI specification on the outside...
You have to have a REALLY tight chamber at the neck to see ANY benefit in turning the neck, and every chamber that tight is different,
So neck turning would have to be a custom service to fit the specific chamber,
Not that I'm opposed to it.

I actually found a really slick/fast way to turn necks, it wouldn't be hard to do a bunch of brass really quickly.



> If you think your half as good as you are you would be working for a name brand company as someone important in their food chain,


Already am working as an engineer, just looking at a retirement business to keep my shooting habit fed.
You wonder about simple machine functions in brass,
Try building suspensions for race & show cars for liability!
Every customer's life is in your hands...
Lots and lots of moving parts that have to be PRECISELY built, welded, assembled...
And the government contracts alone will kill the average mule, nothing like a government geek to screw things up to the point nothing works...



> but instead you probably sit in your garage and provide beer for people that only listen to you to drink your beer. God bless Yankee and enjoy your evening!


You ASSUME too much, and apparently have a RICH fantasy life.


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I understand fully.


Glad I could help with that.



> It is you who is confused by SAAMI, MOA and many other things out there.
> If you read your second link you would know about the thicker case wall.


Yup, It's hard to keep up with everything at once, since this is a hobby, I don't pour over everything that is printed in every publication. 



> Cartridge overall length is NOT 45mm or 1.77 inches, that is the CASE length. Trim length is 1.750 and a cartridge(COL) of 2.250-2.260 with a 62 grain pill.


Thanks for pointing that out, I've corrected the post for future reference.
Heaven Forbid that I'd make a HUMAN mistake and there wasn't someone there to get as nasty about it as they could...



> Yank,


I wonder what my family in Wimberly, TX would think about being called a 'Yankee'!?
I'm sure they would get a charge out of it!



> I cook my own loads all day everyday and I shoot plenty good and I would be willing to put my money where my mouth is any day of the week.


Wish I had all day, every day to screw around with hobbies! I have to work for a living and that takes up most of my time.

Retirement is coming so maybe I'll get the chance to goof off, shoot more, have my toes in the sand and a drink in my hand... 



> Once again I ask why no neck turning on this premium brass? If your so concerned about the best brass and best accuracy m, you have test to mention neck turning.


I covered that, but here goes again since you didn't seem to notice the first time...
The benefits of neck turning come in with a REALLY tight chamber, and really tight chambers don't come around often.
If a guy were willing to cast his chamber and send me the cast, or a good measurement of his chamber, I could turn them with no problem,
I have a slick/quick way to turn necks, it wouldn't be an issue.

Most of the brass I see is barely at SAAMI specification when it's properly resized to start with



> At the end of the day, I will take your tag line on the firing line forum to heart.
> The Internet has info that you get what you pay for from experts.


That's not the tag line...



> If you really thought you knew all there is to about this you wouldn't even be on this site you would work for hornady or some other big name company or have a sponsorship for matches.


Nope, they don't pay worth squat for engineers.
Much better off where I am.



> My guess is you don't, you try to spread you mind washing bs here and when you get called you go deeper into a hole.


Yeah, I don't know what that means... Is it like a 'Yankee' thing?
Not what I'd call a first class insult, insults have to be relevant.



> So in closing, application, aplication, aplication....


Even if misspelled, you DID pick up something that stuck!



> submit one and get a real job other than thinking your someone who knows more than everyone else.


Again, that would be the 'Common Sense' and 'Application' thing.
Common sense dictates you follow the common safe practices that others have laid down before you,
Application means you adapt to your needs.



> As far as I'm concerned you know jack and squat when it comes to common reloading or long range shooting.


This is America, you are allowed to believe anything you want to.
There are millions of people that think Trump & Palin would make a good political team,
Millions more that believe in the tooth fairy...
You believe what ever you like.



> Have a great evening my Yankee friend.


Not to be rude here, but we are NOT friends.
You are just another user of the internet, Nameless, Faceless, completely un-accountable since you post things you would NEVER say to anyone's face.

I've never met you, probably never will...
But glad I could point out the mis-conceptions you had about this stuff.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Ok Yank,

Prior to firing the case was never longer. Of course I know after firing the case gets longer, common sense that was sarcasm. 

Excuse me for the mix up not match shooter, bench shooters. I will not go back and fix it to attempt to save face though. You yourself said you didn't know bench shooters using auto loaders. Yes when I did compete I kept MY brass and neck sized just those cases and never had a single issue. Readsomemorereloading manuals, bolt or single and going in the same hole neck sizing is perfectly acceptable. Can you get away with it on autos, sometimes if your lucky. 

Powder is much more violent that a firecracker. Does not matter if it's hydraulic or not. Think of it as compression in a diesel vs gas engines.

Only ever issued LC ammo for my "service" rifle, never saw a headstand newer than 08. 

Not saying they didn't change anything in 2012. 

Most of my comments were sarcastic the only thing I may have learned is the change in cases. Thanks for publishing common sense stuff though!

Yankee is not an insult, it's what you are, you can't always help what you are but that's life. My experiance with people from the north-northeast is they are generally very arrogant and rude. There are some good people up there but not many. I guess me calling you a Yank wouldn't be any different than you calling me Tex. I will say this though, with the exception of 2 people on this forum if anyone knocked on my door My wife or I wouldn't let anyone leave hungry. People are always welcome here. Like I said you can't help what you are


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Ok Yank,


Yank or Yankee, which is it?



> Prior to firing the case was never longer.


Not necessarily, and again, BE SPECIFIC.

"Prior To Firing" 5.56 NATO brass is crimped.
US Military uses an outside compression crimp, moving the brass with 'Finger' sections with force applied 90 degrees to the cartridge.
This compresses sections around the neck into the bullet.

Since the brass is compressed, and the brass can't move down into the case, or into the bullet, it has to move UP the bullet slightly.
Like a lot of people, I find military cases are over length from that crimp alone.
Just a thousand of an inch or so, but still, it's not a 'VIRGIN' case or in strict/specific tolerance...

*This makes the case a slight bit longer.*
(It's also a good reason for annealing the neck to prevent that compressed/hardened brass from cracking sooner.)

I know you don't like exceptions, and you like those blanket statements when they work in your favor,
Just pointing out "Prior To Firing The Case Was Never Longer"... 
You didn't specify the case as produced, or the case after loading/crimped... 
Since you weren't particularly clear on WHICH case was 'Never Longer', and what 'Specification' you were basing the 'Never Longer' "THAN WHAT" off of,

Since you said 'CASE' instead of 'Cartridge', The case as manufactured before loading? or the CARTRIDGE as loaded for firing?



> Of course I know after firing the case gets longer, common sense that was sarcasm.


Now, you make me footnote, post reference material, case specifications to the 1/1000",
'Sarcasm' doesn't have a place in a refined technical conversation,
Generalities don't have a place in a refined technical conversation.

This was a FRENDLY thread intended to find out exactly what reloaders might think of cost effective reconditioned brass with 'Premium' flourishes,
YOU turned it into a micrometer busting technical thread that required diagrams, specifications to the 4 digit behind the decimal place, and introduced insults, insolence, theories that defy laws of physics, and a generally nasty demeanor.

These are YOUR rules, please try to abide by them.



> Excuse me for the mix up not match shooter, bench shooters.


That's OK, I'm trying to recondition brass that both can use.



> I will not go back and fix it to attempt to save face though.


No need, 
You pointed out the mistake I made while typing too fast, and looking at reference material,
I changed the specification in the event ANYONE ever gets past the nasty, snarly, sarcastic 'Text' posted excessively to glean the pepper from the fly dung.



> You yourself said you didn't know bench shooters using auto loaders.


I don't know a single one right now, the only guy I knew that used an ammo waster passed away several years ago.
Even bench shooters have 'Matches', since 'Match' was used in a blanket/generic context, then used in a specific way, it was only prudent to define the difference.



> Yes when I did compete I kept MY brass and neck sized just those cases and never had a single issue.


What were the EXACT specifications on that brass when you received it?
I'm pretty sure you didn't have custom brass made to the EXACT size of your rifle's chamber...

My guess it was SAAMI specification NEW brass....



> Read/some/more/reloading manuals, bolt or single and going in the same hole neck sizing is perfectly acceptable. Can you get away with it on autos, sometimes if your lucky.


Two points here,
1. When you get brass for any given rifle, factory loaded or cases from the big manufacturing companies, what specific specification is it?
I would venture to say it's SAAMI specification...
A reconditioner wouldn't do very well selling brass sized to one specific rifles chamber, not much volume in that...

2. What is the largest market for .223/5.56mm brass right now?
Sure, there are still a lot of bolt rifles out there,
But it's the SEMI-AUTO market that's dumping brass on the ground at a much faster rate.

Since a reconditioner can't ever tell EXACTLY what rifle the brass will be loaded for, it's much SAFER to stick to SAAMI specification so it fits EVERYONE'S RIFLES.



> Powder is much more violent that a firecracker.
> Does not matter if it's hydraulic or not.
> Think of it as compression in a diesel vs gas engines.


Now, that would depend on EXACLTY what the WEIGHT of the 'Powder' charge was in the 'Fire Cracker' & the containment vessel was for the 'Fire Cracker'.
The military has big, high grade SEALED cast steel cases for their 'Powder', which burns at MUCH higher rates than any 'Propellant',
They call them 'Bombs'...

It's the burn rate of the propellant.
The burn rate, combined with the friction coefficient of the bullet entering the rifling, is going to ultimately determine chamber pressure.

Put something in there that burns 6,000 ft.sec. and it won't matter one bit if there was, or wasn't, space in the case.

Since the invention of 'Smokeless' (nitro-cellulose) propellants, ammunition has been built for economy of space,
Not making the case any larger than was required for the propellant charge OF THE DAY,
Since propellants have improved/refined, it's really easy to get a propellant that WILL NOT fill the case to 100% leaving air space.

'Titegroup' in a .45 ACP cases is a prime example. 5 grains in the case means most of the case is air space...
The original 'Powder' used filled the case up.
No issues...

Within reason, the ONLY concern with 'Powder' and air space in the case is black powder rounds,
Since black powder has also gotten more potent, but still has a (low) maximum burn rate,
The issue isn't with chamber pressure, but ignition of all the powder at once, 
Not burning rear to front.

Too little 'Black Powder' in a case can allow the primer to ignite the surface of the ENTIRE powder charge when the case isn't mostly full,
No 'Rear To Front' burn, but everything burning at once.
I would rationalize the warnings in both the NRA and RCBS manuals to have at least 85% case volume to be from that very ignition process.

That is why I use 'Propellant' rather than 'Powder' as much anymore when I type something out.
Flake, Stick, Ball... I rarely reload with 'Powder' anymore.



> Only ever issued LC ammo for my "service" rifle, never saw a headstand newer than 08.
> 
> Not saying they didn't change anything in 2012.


That's one problem with using 'Surplus' ammo or cases,
The military doesn't tell the civilian population when they make changes...
They don't have to.

Depending on the 'Military' barrel you get for an 'AR' style rifle,
It might have a 1/14" twist barrel, 1/12" twist barrel, 1/10" twist barrel, 1/9" twist barrel, 1/7.5" twist barrel or 1/7" twist rate barrel...
The military has used all the above.

They also used 52 grain, 55 Grain, 59 Grain, 62 Grain, ect. bullets.
You don't know if you are getting lead, nylon or steel cores...
Or maybe even tracers!

Pulled or overrun bullets from military manufacturers are all over the place in weight, +/- 5 grains sometimes...
I don't know how it happens, I just find them.

I guess a machine gun spitting out 600 rounds a minute doesn't care, so they don't.



> Most of my comments were sarcastic the only thing I may have learned is the change in cases. Thanks for publishing common sense stuff though!


Enough 'Voo-Doo' information out there...
Common sense SHOULD have told a lot of these guys better, but there are a lot that still don't do the 'Common Sense' stuff, like NOT mixing propellants!

The chamfer/deburr is another common sense thing that I don't see much.
Just whack off the case with a flat faced cutter that's seen better days and run the brass.

Saw some at a gun show that were 'Reconditioned', gouges in the primer pockets from a Dillon 1050 decrimp, the case mouth was more or less rounded over from the dull length trimmer.
I didn't even bother trying one in a case gauge...
The guy that buys those to start hand loading is in for a BIG education real quick...



> Yankee is not an insult, it's what you are, you can't always help what you are but that's life.


I don't care. The war between the states has been over for over 150 years.
When traveling the world, everyone from America is a 'Yankee'.



> My experiance with people from the north-northeast is they are generally very arrogant and rude.


Having been born in Texas, spending much of my childhood in TX, I thought the same thing...
Now I realize there is a difference between insulting someone and getting back what you give and the stereotype.

Most country/rural folk are pleasant enough, which is why I live out in the woods.
The rude meter swings off the scale in most cities.
There are some areas that have a chip on their shoulders, doesn't matter what you say, it's going to be taken as an insult.



> There are some good people up there but not many. I guess me calling you a Yank wouldn't be any different than you calling me Tex.


I didn't 'Call' you anything.
When I reffered to the ammo you loaded without resizing, limiting that to one specific rifle,
I called the round you rolled a 'Texas' round because your user name is Texas Predator.
If your user name was 'Fred' I would have called it a 'Fred 223-1/2'



> I will say this though, with the exception of 2 people on this forum if anyone knocked on my door My wife or I wouldn't let anyone leave hungry. People are always welcome here. Like I said you can't help what you are


Can't help what I am? Sounds like a back handed insult...

What I am is farm kid, grown to a Marine, Disabled, but won't take welfare.
If you CAN work, you DO work.
A few replacement parts that leave me with some limitations, so I simply found something I COULD do that didn't involve welfare.

I CAN design, machine, weld, understand and work with AC, DC, Welding electrical. (welding guys needed a class in basic electrical! screwed me all up!)

I grow most of my own food, but I can't break the 'Starbucks' habit,
I'll help anyone that will help themselves.
I love my wife, best human being I know!

I've seen a 'Black' president, I've seen a train wreck, I've seen an ostrich (or maybe Emu?) sniffing a buffalo's butt!
Gained ZERO wisdom from any of those events...

I *GENERALLY* know 'Stupid' when I see it happen...
Sometimes I'm the one doing it.

I'd say I'm pretty 'Average' in every way. 
Smarter than some, not so much with others...
My farm and vehicles are paid for, I have some money in the bank for old age, I can pee (at my age, saying you can still pee with the best of them is a good thing!) 
I can pee in the yard without the neighbors calling the cops, I still smile while watching the kids splash around in the lake, SO, I'M NOT DEAD YET!
What else can you ask for?


----------



## JeepHammer

As for the crimping of the case mouth, it's esoteric, strictly a 'Geek' issue.
Every FACTORY chamber I've ever casted/gauged had 'Slop Room' in there, especially military chambers.

I'm not sure *I* would cut a chamber that tight of tolerance (and I'm OCD about chambers), and I use three piece chamber cutting tools...
0.001" or less is 'Decimal Dust' when you are cutting chambers for practical use.
There is usually more wobble/flex in the chamber reamer than that.

I'm not sure an EDM could burn a chamber that tight in a production rifle...

Crimp at the case mouth DOES make a pretty good argument for annealing all cases the first time around.
The 'Fingers' compress the brass unevenly, and that's a recipe for a crack to start.
Annealing will take ALL the stress out of the case mouth, even if you can't trim the entire crimp out, it wouldn't matter if the neck were returned to 'Dead Soft'.


----------



## JeepHammer

PROPELLANTS.

I've noticed a couple of trends in the last 45 years, see if you see the same things...

Pistol Propellants charges have gotten MUCH smaller as the propellant has increased in potential energy.
I used to fill .45 ACP cases up to the point the propellant was compressed,
Now, with something like 'Tightgroup' there is barely a dusting in the bottom of the case.
I had to buy a new powder thrower for 'Titegroup' since my old, trusty charge bar wouldn't throw consistent charge weights that small!

With rifle powders, there are still the old tried and true...
Pretty much fills the case up.

Then came the newer, higher energy powders, and I started seeing air space in the cases.

Then along came the even NEWER propellants, with something listed on the labels I'd never seen before, 'Inert Components' on the label...
And the powders started filling the cases up again.

I'm wondering if people were blowing too many rifles up by trying to fill the cases up with the higher energy propellant,
So they started adding 'Space Filler' or 'Inert Components' to the propellant?

Not that I'm against safety,
But the idea of buying (and paying through the nose for) 'INERT' anything kind of chaps my buttocks...

I know how to use a scale, so why the 'Inert' stuff in the propellant if it wasn't for anything other than safety,
To make it impossible to overpressure rounds? 
To sell us sawdust? Increase profit margin by selling 'Inert' weight?

Just some thoughts... And some questions...


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Sarcasm always has a place. This wasn't all that technical from the word go.

I've read your other threads, you like to use all of the above.

It's called fire forming and then neck sizing instead of full length for THAT rifle for matches. 

Never said you called me anything, I said it would be the same as you calling me Tex. That's an analogy. 

If you load 24.5 of an IMR 1 case and 24.5 of something else it will matter. Believe it or not case capacity does matter.

Just for your peace of mind, new manufactured brass is SAAMI, that's why you firework before the match and then load it. 

As of 3 or 4 years ago I full length size everything and trim it all. 

Lastly, if I am leaving too many specifics out I guess it's because I assumed you would comprehend and fill in the blanks with your vast knowledge, guess I made a butt out of myself on that one. 

Have a great day Northerner.


----------



## JeepHammer

I had that same 'Assumption', which has ALWAYS bit me in the buttocks...

It's fire forming if you intend to use it right back in the same rifle.
It's just case 'Expansion' or bloat when I get 'Once Fired' cases.

Since I have an accumulation of rifles in the same caliber, and I don't reload for any specific rifle with exception of one bench rifle, I full length resize to stop confusion.
I also crank out reconditioned brass for other people, and that pretty much requires a full length resized since I have no idea what the previous chambers did to the cases.

I never saw a big difference in using 'Neck Sized' cases over full length resizing in service rifle matches.
I did see feeding problems without full length resizing, my auto loaders with tight chambers just did not like neck sized cases.

Even fire formed & neck sized, I sometimes get a 'Sticky' bolt, one that takes a little more pressure to lock down.
I don't get those issues with full length resize.

Bolt gun guys can get away with a lot more than the 'Average' autoloader guys...


----------



## JeepHammer

SO...
No more arguments about reconditioning 'Once Fired' bulk brass from UNKNOWN chambers to 'SAAMI' specification the first time around?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

So, you ARE just looking for arguments to your (often misguided/misleading) ramblings?

This thread was never about reloading premium ammo, and it was only marginally about conditioning mutt brass. It was entirely about trying to show the admin that you actually could make a thread without calling anyone an idiot, a liar, or threatening them. 

That demonstration may mean something to the Admin, but isn't going to carry a lot of water with the guys around here who conduct themselves that way as SOP. 

What MIGHT carry a little is manning up and apologizing for calling a guy a liar, and then being proven wrong. It's a box you haven't checked, and, based on your prior behavior, one I don't think anyone expects you will. 

If you have any confusion on the matter, I'm happy to re-quote the posts where you called me a liar, I responded with hard data, and you offered only to apologize once I'd given you a chance to shoot at me. I'll throw in the weaseley attempt to say that what you said was something different, in an attempt to placate the mods, for free comedy-relief, if you'd like. 

You've been laughed off the other forums for your lack of comprehension and argumentative nature, as demonstrated by Bear, and you nearly lost your home here (for an infraction that would have cost ANYONE ELSE their access). I'd recommend that, if you want to smooth things out for yourself here, you right your previous wrongs, quit looking for arguments, quit trying to "church up the yokels with your vast knowledge", and start again. No one else would have been given that chance. You should count yourself lucky.


----------



## JeepHammer

Since I have ZERO idea where the 'Once Fired' brass comes from, or what chamber it was fired in, like most bulk brass,

I'll cursory clean the brass, get rid of corrosion/tarnish, get anything IN the brass out, 
And proceed.

The air pressure test to help find cracked case necks, oversize flash holes.

I will De-Cap, knock the primer out,

I will Anneal the upper case, including the neck/shoulder so the brass is 'Dead Soft',
Removing the hardening issues at the neck, shoulder, crimp (if any) and make the brass easier to work.

This also returns the neck to 'Dead Soft', giving the best *Chance* at a consistent neck tension on the bullet when it's reloaded,
And it will give the best chance for the brass to take on the shoulder angles in the sizing die.

This would be a 'Premium' touch that most 'Resized' brass does not get.

The next step would be resizing the cases, pushing case walls back in where they belong,
Pushing the case shoulder back where it belongs.

The next step would be to CUT the primer pocket to a consistent size & depth.
This will also clean the pocket out thoroughly.
I see 'Swaged' primer pockets to push back military crimp,
But I just don't see CUT primer pockets in reconditioned brass, this would be a 'Premium' touch since it's not commonly done in reconditioned brass.

Next step, flash hole size check/drilling to specification.
A 'Premium' touch I don't ever see in ready to load reconditioned brass.

The next step would be to De-Burr the inside of the flash hole.
Another 'Premium' touch that I don't see done in mass resized brass.

The next step would be trim to length, SAAMI specification.
During this trimming process, the burrs will be removed, and the case neck inside/outside will be tapered a little.
This facilitates smoother loading into the chamber, no sharp lip to catch on anything, and the inside taper allows for easier bullet insertion into the case.
These are 'Premium' touches I simply don't see in 'reconditioned' cases.

Once the brass passes final QC, it would be off to the polisher, if the customer does NOT want the signs of annealing, and wants a high polish on the brass.
This would also remove any case lube left on the brass.

*Since I have the potential for 10 stations on the press bar, there *Could* be additional checks/processes done, if anyone can think of anything that is relevant to about all brass that gets processed...*


----------



## JeepHammer

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> So, you ARE just looking for arguments to your (often misguided/misleading) ramblings?


I'm invested over $3,000 in a reconditioning machine, I have unused stations on the press bar.
I'm looking for CONSTRUCTIVE IDEAS to improve what I'm doing for myself.



> This thread was never about reloading premium ammo,


Argumentative souls haven't let it progress into reloading yet, and I haven't progressed into a loading machine for large production of loaded ammo.
Addressing the 'Issues' raised has taken about 10x the time it should have to run through basic resizing, what is and isn't basic reconditioning points.



> ... and it was only marginally about conditioning mutt brass.


Not everyone shoots brand new brass all the time, every time.
Some people reload, and once fired, then all brass would be 'Mutt' brass if your definition holds of 'Mutt' brass.

I'm like everyone else, I like some new brass better than others,
I like some 'Once Fired' better than others.
Some people will shoot anything with acceptable results, I'm also one of those.

If you want to insult/degrade any Once Fired brass as 'Mutt', then that would be your prerogative.
Since it's just a brass container, but one we can not shoot without, I don't see much in the way of a difference most times when the brass is shown some care in preparation.



> It was entirely about trying to show the admin that you actually could make a thread without calling anyone an idiot, a liar, or threatening them.


This is America, you can believe anything you want to believe.
Since I've 'Been Warned', abiding by that warning, 
And obviously others have not, That's all I have to say on your 'Opinion'.



> That demonstration may mean something to the Admin, but isn't going to carry a lot of water with the guys around here who conduct themselves that way as SOP.


You mean the consistency of name calling, insults, rants & raves like the one you are conducting?
I would agree, that's pretty much the SOP of some of the members...



> What MIGHT carry a little is manning up and apologizing for calling a guy a liar, and then being proven wrong. It's a box you haven't checked, and, based on your prior behavior, one I don't think anyone expects you will.


Your ego and demands for an apology do not concern me.



> If you have any confusion on the matter, I'm happy to re-quote the posts where you called me a liar, I responded with hard data, and you offered only to apologize once I'd given you a chance to shoot at me.


Again, I would NOT shoot anyone over a crap fight on the internet.
I have no idea about your 'Character' since we haven't met in person.
Until such a meeting takes place, I will refrain from commenting on your character, and I'm forbidden from commenting on your actions on the forum.



> I'll throw in the weaseley attempt to say that what you said was something different, in an attempt to placate the mods, for free comedy-relief, if you'd like.


Again, more insults, name calling which I'm not allowed to respond to, simply point out...



> You've been laughed off the other forums for your lack of comprehension and argumentative nature,


Prove what you say...



> ... as demonstrated by Bear,


Bear Who? No actual name?



> ... and you nearly lost your home here (for an infraction that would have cost ANYONE ELSE their access).


Yet while others rant & rave on, slinging insults, name calling, ect. with no admonishment in the slightest since it's still going on?
What 'Protections' are you talking about?



> I'd recommend that, if you want to smooth things out for yourself here, you right your previous wrongs, quit looking for arguments, quit trying to "church up the yokels with your vast knowledge", and start again. No one else would have been given that chance. You should count yourself lucky.


A 'Church' is the last thing you will ever hear me mention.
Your 'Opinions' of what I should, or should not do are noted.

*DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL TO ADD TO THE CONVERSATION,
OR ARE YOU JUST INTENTIONALLY SLOWING DOWN THE DISCUSSION OVER A PERSONAL BEEF?*


----------



## JeepHammer

If you are UNCLEAR on the post, the reasoning for every process, I can 'Cut & Paste' it all over again, take up a dozen pages or so,
OR,
You can go back and read the arguments, and why unknown 'Once Fired' needs to be full length resized before going into another chamber,
Which we've spent three pages getting to at this point...

If you have any SPECIFIC process that should/shouldn't be done that hasn't been discussed to death already, post that up...


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

No sorry I was in the hospital with my pregnant wife, something more important that arguing with your hogwash. 

But just to prove my point, I have not said anything you do is bad or wrong, just you wording, specs, and stating it is a requirement to full length resize ALL brass knowing that it is not true.

Next part is brand new cases will probably be the same price as what you are attempting to produce. I have seen brass like yours on the net at 2 places for .52 a case, most will buy new cases knowing they are new and manufactured by a company that has stood the test of time instead of in the garage. 

For the tenth time or so, I know what SAAMI is, I also know that no matter what you believe because of the liability involved reloading dies are made to return the cases to SAAMI specs, if they were not then there would probably be a lot more law suits, but that should be common sense for a man of your knowledge. 

I also know cases expand into the chambe and get longer and that a 556 chamber is longer than a 223 and so forth so on. The whole thing I have been arguing with you is that you say you cannot do something such as neck size and that you say no case has a different volume than another when YOU posted the link that says there is. You also say case volume does not matter, you are extremely wrong on that one but whatever Northerner, I'll let the people you associate drink your beer and listen to you talk. Hopefully one of them will stand in front of your target and be safe. 

Just for the record, church in something up just means making it nicer or pretty something along those lines, nothing to do with going to church. Have a blessed Sunday Yankee, I have a tire that had gone flat and I am going to return it to DOT specs and sell it as a premium tire. Any tips?


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Hornady new 223 brass 45-55 cents per case 
Lapua new 223 brass 60-67 cents a case
Remington new 223 brass 20-27 cents a case
Once fired 223 cases crimped and non crimped Winchester, federal, Remington, and many more 8-15 cents a case

I can reload a 223 case 5-7 times so for instance a Remington case bought new will cost me 5 cents every time I load it if I spread it out over its useful life. 

I really don't think you can top factory brass and sell it cheaper to cover your time and equipment, that's the other point. If you were doing this with cases that are less available or more costly like ultra mags and weatherby's I could see a market, but 223? Not worth the time or effort. Tumble em size em prime em load em shoot em, 223 is too dang cheap to waste that much time!


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> No sorry I was in the hospital with my pregnant wife, something more important that arguing with your hogwash.


Family time is important, the insults aren't needed. 



> But just to prove my point, I have not said anything you do is bad or wrong, just you wording, specs, and stating it is a requirement to full length resize ALL brass knowing that it is not true.


Sorry, Don't know anyone or any reloading source that doesn't believe full length resizing is NOT needed on unknown brass.
If you have a source, post it up.



> Next part is brand new cases will probably be the same price as what you are attempting to produce.


The cheapest 'Brand New' cases I've found were 30 cents each, $30/100.
I'm looking at half that or less.



> I have seen brass like yours...


You haven't SEEN MINE, so that is false.
A complete overreach. 
Another 'Assumption'...



> I have seen brass like yours on the net at 2 places for .52 a case,


I wouldn't buy ONCE FIRED for 52 cents each! Not with new common Winchester running 30 cents each! That's outrageous for common brass!
They better be 'Palma' for 52 cents each 'Once Fired'!



> ... most will buy new cases knowing they are new and manufactured by a company that has stood the test of time instead of in the garage.


If you buy new cases, you pay new price, anywhere from 30 cents each to $3 each depending on size and quality. 



> For the tenth time or so, I know what SAAMI is, I also know that no matter what you believe because of the liability involved reloading dies are made to return the cases to SAAMI specs,


Again, be PRECISE,
Neck sizing dies WILL NOT return the 'CASE' to SAAMI specifications.



> ... if they were not then there would probably be a lot more law suits, but that should be common sense for a man of your knowledge.


If that were specifically true, where are there 'MATCH' dies and 'Common' dies on the market?
Tighter tolerances maybe, something that returns the case to a more desirable shape?



> I also know cases expand into the chambe and get longer and that a 556 chamber is longer than a 223 and so forth so on.


Glad you understand those points, makes things MUCH easier...



> The whole thing I have been arguing with you is that you say you cannot do something such as neck size...


NOT what I said, 
I said you CAN NOT just neck size unknown brass for someone else's rifle!
Even you yourself said you only neck size for brass being used right back in the same rifle...

Why is the idea of bulk brass being SAAMI when you get it so repelling to you?
You have to start SOMEWHERE, SAAMI is usually the place most people start...



> ... and that you say no case has a different volume than another when YOU posted the link that says there is.


Again, incorrect/mis-quote.
I said as of 2012 there is no difference in case volume.
The case volume issues in previous years is so slight as not to make a difference in anything but a bench rifle or other selective, highly accurate rifle.
Common rifles won't know or care.



> You also say case volume does not matter, you are extremely wrong on that one but whatever Northerner,


Again, a mis-quote.
I said the case volume differences between civilian manufactures, military brass, make virtually ZERO difference when compared to the choice of propellants and the different burn/expansion rates.

Case volume differences I can verify amount to folding a dollar bill over twice (4 layers) and punching a .224 diameter hole,
putting those punched layers under the bullet.
NEGAGLABLE AT BEST.

You used a 'Hydraulic' example, which was flawed since liquids don't compress.
We aren't dealing with liquids, gasses only.
High energy gasses at that, no chance for liquid.



> I'll let the people you associate drink your beer and listen to you talk. Hopefully one of them will stand in front of your target and be safe.


I don't drink beer.



> Just for the record, church in something up just means making it nicer or pretty something along those lines, nothing to do with going to church.


Nope again,

church/CH&#601;rCH/
noun: church; plural noun: churches
1. a building used for public Christian worship.
"they came to church with me"

synonyms: place of worship, house of God, house of worship; cathedral, abbey, chapel, basilica; megachurch; synagogue, mosque 
"a village church" 

I'm simply trying to figure out mechanical processes, not looking to have a 'religious' experience (any religion).



> Have a blessed Sunday Yankee, I have a tire that had gone flat and I am going to return it to DOT specs and sell it as a premium tire. Any tips?


Not sure you can, 'Premium' would indicate touches or flourishes not found in 'Standard' products, either in design or manufacturer.

Since you aren't 'Designing' or 'Manufacturing', (simply trying to get it to hold air above ambient air pressure)
And you can't return it to 'New' or 'Like New' condition, being tread wear you can't get back, I would say you have a long and challenging adventure ahead of you...
Enjoy the experience and be happy there isn't 2 feet of snow and ice out there to enhance your experience...


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Hornady new 223 brass 45-55 cents per case
> Lapua new 223 brass 60-67 cents a case
> Remington new 223 brass 20-27 cents a case
> Once fired 223 cases crimped and non crimped Winchester, federal, Remington, and many more 8-15 cents a case


My point EXACTLY, with those case prices,
It makes a 7 cent or 8 cent case attractive, no reaming required.



> I can reload a 223 case 5-7 times so for instance a Remington case bought new will cost me 5 cents every time I load it if I spread it out over its useful life.


And when you buy that case for 7 or 8 cents, that makes the case 1 cent per use.



> I really don't think you can top factory brass and sell it cheaper to cover your time and equipment, that's the other point.


Good point. That's why I'm trying to find out.
Don't know what it's going to cost for SHARP cutting tools per 1,000 cases,
Don't know what the power & cleaning is going to run per 1,000 cases.



> If you were doing this with cases that are less available or more costly like ultra mags and weatherby's I could see a market, but 223?
> Not worth the time or effort. Tumble em size em prime em load em shoot em, 223 is too dang cheap to waste that much time!


Depends on the AVAILABILITY of loaded ammunition or components,
And the cost of brass/production...

Time isn't that big of a concern with automation.
With automation, there could be a sized brass every second or less,
60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in a hour = 3,600 brass an hour.
3,600 x 24 hours in a day = 86,400 brass.

Just loading the machine over a 10 hour day, 36,000 brass.
That's just short of ONE 55 gallon drum, which holds around 40,000.

That's from ONE machine... And *ASSUMING* it takes a full second to cycle...
I could crank out a second machine for half the price, twice as fast as this one is going together since everything is worked out.

I've already started collecting parts for a .308 Win machine...

-----------------

Now, if I went 'Specialty', like you said, Ultra-Mag, where is the source of inexpensive base brass to feed the machines,
And how fast do you saturate the market?
The ratio of ARs out there to 'Ultra Mag' anything has got to be HUGE.

You can't produce .223/5.56 Brass fast enough, especially if there is another big government buy or another, (7th annual) 'Obammers Gettin' Ur Guns!' rush on ammunition & cases...


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Whatever Yankee. Your so full of yourself it's not funny. I could show all the places you screwed up and lied but you probably went back and fixed it by now. 

No, you said in your big bold deal full length size always required. Either way I don't care because this is what you do. Your beyond arrogant, and your not doing anything that's premium. 

It's calls re tread, it's still got a used side wall but new tread. It's still used!

It's once fired and your trying to make it new. It's still used! If you want premium buy new.

You are not designing anything or manufacturing anything. 

If volume in a case has no value fill a pipe halfway with powder and the other full up bet both kill you! 

Your arrogance will catch up to you someday, hopefully mangled! 

Pleasant evening Yankee.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Texaspredatorhu said:


> No sorry I was in the hospital with my pregnant wife, something more important that arguing with your hogwash.


Hope your wife and little one are well.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Hope your wife and little one are well.


Thank you much. She will be induced in the morning which is fine because she has hit 39 weeks. Thank you again.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Diamondkbrass.com. They are sizing, trimming m, swaging and polishing 10-13 cents a case. That's what they do, it's not a hobby. I don't think you understand that doing more work doesn't necessarily make it premium but takes more time to do and generally cost more. You yourself said this will be for AR shooters mostly. Why take the time and effort? There is no point, you will be limited by the rifle as far as accuracy and more importantly what took you 2 hours to do lasted 12 seconds worth of trigger pulls inaccurately. Like is said polish, size, trim, load, shoot. It's 223 the market is flooded with loaded rounds, brass and components.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Texaspredatorhu said:


> She will be induced in the morning which is fine because she has hit 39 weeks.


Congrats for the two of you, and prayers for all three.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

JeepHammer said:


> Argumentative souls haven't let it progress into reloading yet,...


You're free to blather on at will. You've demonstrated your willingness to do that since the moment you got here, so I don't expect there's anything I or any other reasonable person can do to stop you.

Personally, I find you equal parts funny, and disturbing.





JeepHammer said:


> Not everyone shoots brand new brass all the time, every time.
> Some people reload, and once fired, then all brass would be 'Mutt' brass if your definition holds of 'Mutt' brass.
> 
> If you want to insult/degrade any Once Fired brass as 'Mutt', then that would be your prerogative...


"Mutt" brass is not ALL fired brass. "Mutt" brass is the "anything shiny" you're picking up and claiming to make premium. Of course, that's the obvious implied meaning to anyone capable of shutting their own yuck trap long enough to value anything anyone else has to say - a virtue you've proven countless times that you don't have.




JeepHammer said:


> This is America, you can believe anything you want to believe.
> Since I've 'Been Warned', abiding by that warning,
> And obviously others have not, That's all I have to say on your 'Opinion'


And you were warned for something that others have been banned for. In my time here, you're unquestionably the worst I've seen for name-calling, and the only one I've seen to survive extending an offer to shoot another member. 

You can "abide" that. In fact, I expect you would. A fella that conducts himself like yourself quickly runs out of places to hang out. 



JeepHammer said:


> You mean the consistency of name calling, insults, rants & raves like the one you are conducting?
> I would agree, that's pretty much the SOP of some of the members...


Name calling?
What?



JeepHammer said:


> Your ego and demands for an apology do not concern me...


This has never been about MY ego. It's about your lack of honor. 
The reason that men with a sense of honor don&#8217;t go around calling other men liars, is that they accept their own fallibility and acknowledge the fact that, if they do, they&#8217;ll eventually have to eat some crow. 

Nobody likes crow. 

Men eat it when they have to, though. But not all males are men. Those of us that are recognize those who aren't when we see them, and we don&#8217;t let them forget it.

You called me a liar, I proved I was telling the truth, and you conditioned your apology on my allowing you to shoot at me. 
It&#8217;s not a matter of opinion, perspective, or debate. It&#8217;s clear as daylight, and preserved in print. 
You want to hide your head in the sand on the matter, put me on &#8216;ignore&#8217;. I&#8217;ll be waiting up here with your crow.



> _Of course the "dead" 90% of your optic theory is hogwash. The M2010 is outfitted with a 34mm main-tube optic with a 120MOA elevation adjustment, sitting on a 20MOA rail. The Army zeros at 100m, and considers max-effective to be 1300m, so they spend A LOT of time outside the "10%" schwacking bad guys. _
> 
> 
> JeepHammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Actually, that's an absolute & outright lie...
> 
> First Off,
> 120 MOA in the optic, plus 20 MOA in the mount = 140 MOA total.
> Zeroed at 100 Meters, Elevation in MOA would be 322 or 323 MOA @ 1,300 Meters.
> There isn't even CLOSE to enough adjustment in the optic YOU DESCRIBE to shoot 1,300 Meters*
> 
> 
> 
> Easy there. Slow your roll, homes', before you suffocate yourself on your own CO2.
> 
> The M2010 is a 24" 300WM. The M24 is no longer supported by TACOM, and the Army has full-fleeted them into M2010s. Ballistic charts for the Mk248 Mod1 attached, as well as a drop comparison between Mk 248 Mod1, Mod0, and M118LR.
> 
> The hard chart I had handy only went to 1200m, but you can see that, with a 100m zero, Mod 1 requires 47.3 MOA (14 mils) elevation. The comparative chart shows the Mod 1 having about 650 in. of drop at 1300, so about 50 minutes - well within the allowable adjustment of the optic. Assuming perfect optical/platform alignment, there is 60moa north and south of the standard, with 20moa baked back into the cake from the rail. With a 100m zero, you're good with just the knob at 1300&#8230;._CHART INCLUDED TO PROVE CLAIM_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JeepHammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just stand in front of my 600 yard target for about 1 minute and I'll apologize.
> If you are right, you would be perfectly safe and I'll apologize.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




JeepHammer said:


> Again, I would NOT shoot anyone over a crap fight on the internet.


And yet you _said_ you would. 
Integrity is another virtue normally associated with honor. 
You should look it up so you at least have a passing familiarity with the thing.



JeepHammer said:


> Again, more insults, name calling which I'm not allowed to respond to, simply point out...


Not a single insult or called-name in this post or the last&#8230;or any that I can recall. Some things I say may hurt your feelings, but I&#8217;ve backed everyone of them up with facts, data, commonly accepted reality, and your own quotes. I can&#8217;t apologize for saying the truth. 




> You've been laughed off the other forums for your lack of comprehension and argumentative nature,
> 
> 
> JeepHammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove what you say...
> 
> Bear Who? No actual name?
Click to expand...




Bearfootfarm said:


> Are you sure you want to continue calling people liars when they can show proof of what they have stated?
> 
> If you like, I can show you a thread you started to "instruct" everyone on the
> "proper "way to seat bullets, and you argued with this guy:
> 
> http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/cartridges-calibers/12007-bart-bobbitt-2.html


I suggest you avoid clicking the link, though, pal. If you&#8217;re as sensitive to having your ego and feelings hurt as you&#8217;ve shown, you&#8217;re not going to like what you see there. It&#8217;s not very flattering.
Neither is this one:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...op-talk/545519-securing-jeep-car-trailer.html

A long-standing member and well-respected mod started a thread looking for some very specific advice, and you joined in to completely derail it in an attempt to how much you knew about jeeps, since, you know, Jeep is in your name and all. When the dust settled, it was shown that you didn&#8217;t know half of what you were claiming, and you had the gall to tell the OP that HE should have never started the argument with YOU.

And, of course, there is this thread, where you tried to school us all up on the difference between MOA and milradians, lecturing us on the importance of developing hard experience at-range rather than trusting calculators. Then tried to use data from a calculator to show us all how &#8220;knowledgeable&#8221; you were, failing to recognize that your calculation was off by a factor of 400% (your &#8220;experience&#8221; seemed to fail you there, buddy), and stated about a dozen &#8220;facts&#8221; about the M24 that turned out to be totally bunk &#8211; ehh, why let facts get in the way of a good lecture, right?
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...547461-optics-moa-vs-milliradian-mil-dot.html

That one also gave us the classic Jeephammer gem:


JeepHammer said:


> You are REALLY struggling with this...
> 
> First off, the range is in METERS, you laid that down.
> 2,950 FPS is 899 METERS Per Second...
> 
> 2,950 METERS per second comes up to around 9,678 Feet per second.
> Can't think of one single rifle round that travels at 9,678 FPS...
> 
> I guess if I screwed with the speed like that, I could get a chart to read about anything...


You never did explain. What was that??
I&#8217;m not ashamed to admit that I lost a few minutes of introspection trying to figure that one out. 
I&#8217;d genuinely like to know what that was supposed to mean.




JeepHammer said:


> A 'Church' is the last thing you will ever hear me mention.
> Your 'Opinions' of what I should, or should not do are noted.


&#8220;Church up&#8221;&#8230;the yokels is a colloquialism for teach them and get them proper. But you knew that.
A perfect example of your intent is in one of your first posts, where, in response to our own knowledgeable mod and several other members, you said:


JeepHammer said:


> OK, education time.
> Hope this doesn't turn ugly, these are just facts...


(http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...r15-pistols-love-em-loath-em.html#post7529908)
And then went on to state some opinions as &#8220;fact&#8221;, and stated some &#8220;facts&#8221; that were patently wrong. 
Three months here, and you showed your hand that you were here to &#8220;educate&#8221; us, and you&#8217;ve been trying to do so ever since.
Except it always ends up making you out to be an unqualified &#8220;teacher&#8221;.

I&#8217;ve been constructively suggesting that you dial it back a little since the moment you showed your head in this forum, but you wouldn&#8217;t have any of it. 
You came here to church up these yokels, and it&#8217;s just not working for you.


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Congrats for the two of you, and prayers for all three.


Thank you kindly.


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Whatever Yankee. Your so full of yourself it's not funny. I could show all the places you screwed up and lied but you probably went back and fixed it by now.


I noted when I changed anything, and besides, you quoted EVERYTHING, so no chance of changing anything.



> No, you said in your big bold deal full length size always required.


Full length resizing is always required when the case has been fired once in a different chamber.



> Either way I don't care because this is what you do.
> Your beyond arrogant, and your not doing anything that's premium.


If you 'Didn't Care' what I did, then there wouldn't be so much backlash and time spent trying to disprove common practices.



> It's calls re tread, it's still got a used side wall but new tread. It's still used!


It's a brass tube. The brass only gets harder and that would be the reason for annealing & resizing.
Otherwise specification would be identical to new manufacture.



> It's once fired and your trying to make it new.


No, it's ONCE FIRED, Resized, prepared for reloading.



> It's still used! If you want premium buy new.


Ok, tell me EXACTLY what the difference of the brass is once it's fired.
Not the case shape or hardness, since those are covered by annealing and sizing,
Tell me EXACTLY what the chemical composition changes are in the brass to make it inferior to 'New' production...



> You are not designing anything or manufacturing anything.


I'm getting a piece of brass that is out of specification, both in side and hardness.
Same as anyone that gets raw materials and 'Makes' something useful out of it.
I'm more than willing to call it 'Reconditioned' brass, no issues with that at all.



> If volume in a case has no value fill a pipe halfway with powder and the other full up bet both kill you!


Another general analogy with nothing related to what a brass does in a rifle chamber.



> Your arrogance will catch up to you someday, hopefully mangled!


So, it's come to wishing someone mangled since you can't produce a coherent argument?
I'm 55 years old, been doing this a LONG time with all my fingers & toes intact.
Not likely I'm getting 'Mangled' anytime soon...

I'll take this opportunity to wish your wife and unborn child a good result with the current medical issues they are having. That is a SINCERE wish they have the best results possible.



> Pleasant evening Yankee.


It was!


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

Yankee,

No one is trying to disprove "common" reloading practices. I know how to reload, I have been doing it for many years, I have been reloading very accurate rounds for many years. 

Neck sizing is just that, sizing the neck to hold the bullet. You do not want to push the shoulder back, that defeats the purpose. 

Once they are resized and trimmed they are technically lighter and because of this whole process thinner as well. 

My next point is this, why take the time and effort to create a like new product that has a 99.9% chance of going through a sloppy AR chamber? You, me , and Jesus all know run of the mill ARs will eat just about everything. Not to mention the wreck less and inaccurate spray of bullets for grins. 

I highly doubt there is anything you can do to help the inside of the case outside of the neck.

Neck turning is so the neck is the same thickness and holds the bullet in perfect alignment with the case. Much like you saying it's required to lap the upper reciever. Neither are required but can't hurt.

In all actuality you have probably spoiled reloading for some because they now believe what you do is the only way and that is not true in any way. Can you turn a good product, sure, is it all MANDATORY? Not in any way shape or form. I have picked brass up at the range taken it home and tumbled, sized, loaded and shot sub MOA groups. Your trying to reinvent the wheel with something that doesn't need to be because there is no shortage of 223 brass anywhere. The market is flooded with t all right now. Simple economics can explain all that if you want to go down that bunny hole too. 

Basically what I'm trying to say is you are not filling a void, no one really cares if their brass for their AR is premium, they want instant gratification. 

Since I have some time off from work, I'll load up some 223 and I will neck size them and they came from 4 rifles and see how many jam. I'll let you know the results. 

Thanks for the wishes.


----------



## JeepHammer

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You're free to blather on at will. You've demonstrated your willingness to do that since the moment you got here, so I don't expect there's anything I or any other reasonable person can do to stop you.
> 
> Personally, I find you equal parts funny, and disturbing.


And EXACTLY what has this to do with reloading or firearms in general?




> "Mutt" brass is not ALL fired brass. "Mutt" brass is the "anything shiny" you're picking up and claiming to make premium.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, show me the military or SAAMI definition for your claims.
> I have never seen any listing for 'MUTT' brass in any reloading manual, or on the SAAMI web site, or in military writings.
> 
> Since you are DEFINING the term 'MUTT', please show references from an authoritative/regulating body for that definition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, that's the obvious implied meaning to anyone capable of shutting their own yuck trap long enough to value anything anyone else has to say - a virtue you've proven countless times that you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> What EXACTLY does that have to do with the subject at hand?
> Seems like exactly what you are accusing me of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you were warned for something that others have been banned for. In my time here, you're unquestionably the worst I've seen for name-calling, and the only one I've seen to survive extending an offer to shoot another member.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At no time did I write I was going to 'Shoot' anyone.
> I was "Warned" to be 'Nice' and stay on topic.
> Topic is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, if it weren't for all the argumentative posts this would have progressed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can "abide" that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I seem to be the ONLY ONE 'Abiding' by the 'Be Friendly/stay on topic' warning lately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, I expect you would.
> A fella that conducts himself like yourself quickly runs out of places to hang out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no idea what you are trying to say... I 'Ran' nowhere.
> Just giving coherent, concise, referenced reasoning why the processes I'm doing are relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name calling?
> What?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Re-read your posts in this thread alone...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has never been about MY ego.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a different opinion of that, and it's pretty obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's about your lack of honor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, another of your 'Opinions' and an insult that means ZERO over the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason that men with a sense of honor don&#8217;t go around calling other men liars,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And there is the reason for the vitriolic posts with no relevance to the thread posted, and the reason for all the irrlvant posting,
> Your 'feelings 'are hurt, your 'Ego' bruised...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...is that they accept their own fallibility and acknowledge the fact that, if they do, they&#8217;ll eventually have to eat some crow.
> 
> Nobody likes crow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, show me something in THIS THREAD you are spamming that isn't backed up by common sense or practical usage.
> Be PRECISE, and give references other than your 'Opinion'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men eat it when they have to, though. But not all males are men.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That would be debatable.
> Anything 'Male' of the species would be a (Singular) 'Man'.
> 
> My 'Man Card' is intact.
> I'm prevented by the 'Be Nice' clause/warning to NOT proceed further.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those of us that are recognize those who aren't when we see them, and we don&#8217;t let them forget it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds like you found someone that is prevented from responding appropriately you can 'Bully' without response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You called me a liar, I proved I was telling the truth, and you conditioned your apology on my allowing you to shoot at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not the case, but tell it any way you want to since I'm restricted from correcting you in the only manner you understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It&#8217;s not a matter of opinion, perspective, or debate. It&#8217;s clear as daylight, and preserved in print.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> YOUR version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to hide your head in the sand on the matter, put me on &#8216;ignore&#8217;. I&#8217;ll be waiting up here with your crow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't wait! You have a standing offer to meet me in person,
> Take up your 'Grievances' face to face,
> OVER COFFEE, IN A PUBLIC PLACE WHERE YOU WON'T HAVE TO SAY SOMEONE IS THREATENING YOU OR TRYING TO KILL YOU...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you _said_ you would.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure what you are referring to since you changed subjects so often...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Integrity is another virtue normally associated with honor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 'Honor' is a construct of ego to rationalize actions.
> 'Honor' changes with circumstance and what one needs to rationalize.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should look it up so you at least have a passing familiarity with the thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm perfectly aware of the concept, at the psychological level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a single insult or called-name in this post or the last&#8230;or any that I can recall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You need to read the posts again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some things I say may hurt your feelings,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My 'Feelings' have nothing to do with mechanical processes laid out in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I&#8217;ve backed everyone of them up with facts, data, commonly accepted reality, and your own quotes. I can&#8217;t apologize for saying the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, you won't apologize. Don't expect me to apologize either.
> Other than that, it's not 'Friendly', so it won't be posted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you avoid clicking the link, though, pal.
> If you&#8217;re as sensitive to having your ego and feelings hurt as you&#8217;ve shown, you&#8217;re not going to like what you see there. It&#8217;s not very flattering.
> Neither is this one:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't much care about 'Feelings'.
> The posts stand on there own...
> The retraction I posted is all you will get in the way for an 'Apology'.
> It stands on it's own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A long-standing member and well-respected mod started a thread looking for some very specific advice, and you joined in to completely derail it in an attempt to how much you knew about jeeps, since, you know, Jeep is in your name and all.
> When the dust settled, it was shown that you didn&#8217;t know half of what you were claiming, and you had the gall to tell the OP that HE should have never started the argument with YOU.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't have anything to do with this thread,
> But lets review...
> 24 volt electrical system, CHECK.
> Black Out Light Switch, CHECK.
> Pioneer Tool Mounting Points, CHECK.
> 
> I can't help it if someone wants to with hold information then FINALLY show that all the above were correct...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is this thread, where you tried to school us all up on the difference between MOA and milradians, lecturing us on the importance of developing hard experience at-range rather than trusting calculators. Then tried to use data from a calculator to show us all how &#8220;knowledgeable&#8221; you were, failing to recognize that your calculation was off by a factor of 400% (your &#8220;experience&#8221; seemed to fail you there, buddy), and stated about a dozen &#8220;facts&#8221; about the M24 that turned out to be totally bunk &#8211; ehh, why let facts get in the way of a good lecture, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What ever you think, that's the one your ego got bruised on...
> I've slept since then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That one also gave us the classic Jeephammer gem:
> You never did explain. What was that??
> I&#8217;m not ashamed to admit that I lost a few minutes of introspection trying to figure that one out.
> I&#8217;d genuinely like to know what that was supposed to mean.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a hint and if it doesn't require a lengthily explanation, I'll try to fill the void in your understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;Church up&#8221;&#8230;the yokels is a colloquialism for teach them and get them proper. But you knew that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not familiar with the 'Yokel' speak.
> Since it means nothing to me, you can claim it means anything...
> And I still won't mean anything.
> The definition of 'Church' is easy to find, but 'Church Up' doesn't appear in the English language dictionary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A perfect example of your intent is in one of your first posts, where, in response to our own knowledgeable mod and several other members, you said:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And I still won't recommend anything I don't believe is going to function.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then went on to state some opinions as &#8220;fact&#8221;, and stated some &#8220;facts&#8221; that were patently wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Prove your 'Facts'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months here, and you showed your hand that you were here to &#8220;educate&#8221; us, and you&#8217;ve been trying to do so ever since.
> Except it always ends up making you out to be an unqualified &#8220;teacher&#8221;.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Free exchange of ideas, freedom of speech.
> Like anything else on the internet, take it or leave it.
> As for 'Teaching', some of that might happen along the way, if you are open minded enough to glean something from someone else's posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I&#8217;ve been constructively suggesting that you dial it back a little since the moment you showed your head in this forum, but you wouldn&#8217;t have any of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And who EXACTLY are you to 'Direct' anyone on this forum?
> I didn't see a 'Moderator' tag on your avatar...
> I wasn't aware you had the power to 'Direct' the conversations, ideas, opinions of others...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You came here to church up these yokels, and it&#8217;s just not working for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I came to find information on renewable energy, solar in particular.
> I FOUND a void in understanding of things like cable size, output vs. input wattage, ect.
> 
> *AND I ASK AGAIN, WHAT PURPOSE DOES YOUR CONSTANT TIME CONSUMING ATTACKS HAVE ON THE CURRENT THREAD, OTHER THAN TO SWAGE YOUR BRUISED EGO?*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Texaspredatorhu

I think you bowed out of the MOA/mil argument because you were way wrong and off in left field. Even though you have been warned, you are still rude and still do not support your answers with anything more than opinion. Millions have reloaded for years without going through your"premium" process and have shot sub MOA groups. I can hammer out a .4" group at 100 yards with my cheap AR that rides around the truck and gets used hard but has its purpose. That's off reloads that are just sized and then off to a magazine. 

It's all the principle. You said the 3 cardinal rules in reloading are application x 3. Safety should be one of those, quality and accuracy should be the other 2. But hey I'm good with your version. The application for you is to deliver "premium" 223 brass to users that generally shoot ARs. Once again there's no niche for it. Like I said bench shooters maybe but not 3 gun.


----------



## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Yankee,


Again with the 'Yankee'?...



> No one is trying to disprove "common" reloading practices.


*Then why all the vitriol, argument, name calling, pages & pages of argument?*



> I know how to reload,
> I have been doing it for many years,
> I have been reloading very accurate rounds for many years.
> 
> Neck sizing is just that, sizing the neck to hold the bullet. You do not want to push the shoulder back, that defeats the purpose.


That defeats *YOUR* single use purpose in a single bolt gun...
The conversation was never about a *SPECIFIC* firearm,
It was about reconditioning brass, adding premium touches that other brass reconditioners don't add, 
BUT,
Hand loaders often do, commonly recognized reloading flourishes to the brass before reloading.



> Once they are resized and trimmed they are technically lighter and because of this whole process thinner as well.


*Then the question becomes,
Does the loss of 0.001" or less of brass MASS from the case neck make it UNSAFE or even UNUSEABLE.*

ANYONE that trims brass DOES NOT believe so,
And there is no proof that removing that tiny amount of brass during trimming does anything but IMPROVE accuracy, with the case being perfectly safe & effective to use.

*IF* ANYONE believed that removing that tiny bit of brass from the case mouth damaged the brass in any way, they wouldn't be reloading...



> My next point is this, why take the time and effort to create a like new product that has a 99.9% chance of going through a sloppy AR chamber?


Because it MIGHT NOT be used in an AR rifle.
Because generally, fully resized brass feeds better in an AR.
Because it's not 'SAAMI' specification if it's not full length resized.
Because it stands a pretty good chance of causing 'Issues' when it's used in an auto loader if it's not full length resized.



> You, me , and Jesus all know run of the mill ARs will eat just about everything.
> Not to mention the wreck less and inaccurate spray of bullets for grins.


First off, I have to be VERY careful here... EXACT, TECHNICAL, LITTERAL since I don't want anything thrown back up in generalities and wild rants about whatever...

I agree.
In 'General' terms, AR chambers are less than 'Exact' SAAMI or NATO specified chambers.
Most auto loaders are 'Off Spec' to facilitate the auto loading/chambering process.

What about the guy with a bolt rifle, tight chamber, that will have to hammer the bolt closed with a swollen/long case?
What about the guy that gets a quality AR chamber/barrel that bloated, over length cases won't chamber?

Starting from SAAMI only make sense so the cases fit EVERY rifle THE FIRST TIME AROUND.



> I highly doubt there is anything you can do to help the inside of the case outside of the neck.


Nothing but gauge it for 'Thinning' so you don't have a head/case separation.
That's pretty easy in a straight line reconditioning machine, looking for thin spots, only take a pointer with 'Go/NoGo' limits.



> Neck turning is so the neck is the same thickness and holds the bullet in perfect alignment with the case. Much like you saying it's required to lap the upper reciever. Neither are required but can't hurt.


Again, when you do a custom build, or 'Blue Print' the action,
The idea is to get the action to live up to the design 'Blue Prints'.
Blue Prints say upper bore at X.xxx inches, then that's what you build the rifle to,
If the blue prints say a square/90 degree barrel face to the upper bore, then that is what you do...

GENERALLY, but not limited to,
NECK TURNING is to have a consistent tension on the bullet.
Common neck turners RARELY come with a 'Through' pilot to center the case,
No turning the case between centers so the neck is centered with the bore.

Normal neck cutting tools simply uniform thickness of the neck brass all the way around the bullet so tension is applied to the bullet evenly.

The resizing die is *Supposed* to center the neck on the case when it's resized... The cutter only thins/uniforms the brass thickness at the neck, it doesn't cut an off set to correct for misalignment of the neck on the case.

Guys shooting custom or very TIGHT chambers sometimes turn case necks, simply to fit in the neck portion of the chamber.
That would be a custom chamber, requiring a custom neck thickness that is smaller than 'SAAMI'.



> In all actuality you have probably spoiled reloading for some because they now believe what you do is the only way and that is not true in any way.


I can't see that.
Every reloading manual in the world has you whack out the brass for size, check length, charge and shoot...

You only buy the extras tools when you find 'Issues',
Or when you are handloading for increased accuracy.

What I'm talking about is brass that has the 'Extras' done already...
The stuff a PRECISE reloader does.



> Can you turn a good product, sure, is it all MANDATORY?


Nope, it's not MANDATORY, that's why it would be 'Premium' reconditioned.



> Not in any way shape or form.


Again, the 'Premium' part...
If all the stuff is checked, cut, in specification, and rebuilt to perform, then it's premium, not 'resized' and that's it...



> I have picked brass up at the range taken it home and tumbled, sized, loaded and shot sub MOA groups.


Did you FULL LENGHT resize range finds?
Did you check or trim primer pocket crimps or just smack another primer in?
Did you check the case for defects? Berdan priming? Crimped Primer Pockets?
Neck Cracks?
Did you check/cut for length once resized?
Did you deburr and taper the cases in the processes?

AND,
You just maid my point exactly!
There is no reason once fired range brass can't shoot sub-MOA!
So why the resistance to having the brass in bulk, for the same price as 'Resized', but with the touches that make the brass capable of shooting sub-MOA CONSISTANTLY...



> Your trying to reinvent the wheel with something that doesn't need to be because there is no shortage of 223 brass anywhere. The market is flooded with t all right now. Simple economics can explain all that if you want to go down that bunny hole too.


As I've explained,
There isn't a loaded ammo or brass 'Shortage' NOW, at this second...
Sized, polished and dumped is everywhere, new and used.

For the price of production, I believe I can put out a good product at a very attractive price.
Better preparation than what I'm commonly seeing, but at the same price.

I could be wrong, in which case I'm going to have a fast, accurate home conditioning machine and barrels of once fired brass for life...
My mistake and my loss in that event.

In any event, I *Should* be able to compete with the 'Polished, Resized' guys, which will be OK with me for a retirement business.



> Basically what I'm trying to say is you are not filling a void, no one really cares if their brass for their AR is premium, they want instant gratification.


'Instant Gratification' guys don't reload generally, they buy that cheap import crap already loaded.



> Since I have some time off from work, I'll load up some 223 and I will neck size them and they came from 4 rifles and see how many jam. I'll let you know the results.


That would be helpful!
I have several ARs myself, the reason I full length resize about everything in .223 since some don't like to shoot just neck sized cases from the other rifles...



> Thanks for the wishes.


I hope your wife and child are just fine!
Sorry to hear she's having issues with the pregnancy.
Best wishes and regards.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Because you speak as if you way is the bible and any other way is wrong. Brass from the range that picked up I tumbled, sized, uniformed the primer pockets, primed and loaded. Shot sub MOA out of a junkie AR. You said that most of your customer base would be AR shooters, not me. 

If you have a custom chamber, SAAMI does not apply, talk to a real wildcatter.

Yes I trim every case every time, I toss them after I reload 6 times or 7 if new, they might be ok but I won't chance it. Yes I Debur all my case just like a primer pocket uniformer, it's not difficult and I can crank out about 100 full rounds in about 2 hours start to finish. 

I know I MADE your point, why the annealing on once fired brass? Why not just size it tumble and let it go you'll have even less time and money in it and be able to turn a profit and maybe compete with actual companies. If it's premium it usually carries a premium price. If it doesn't, the people you are targeting may think it's junk unless they see your process. That's where marketing comes into play.


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I think you bowed out of the MOA/mil argument because you were way wrong and off in left field.


What you think is wrong.
I acknowledged the mistake, the resetting of the calculator when I didn't notice.
I was told to leave it alone. I have.
Others haven't or made any acknowledgment of the correction.



> Even though you have been warned, you are still rude and still do not support your answers with anything more than opinion.


I thought everything on this thread was documented seven ways from Sunday.
What exactly didn't get documented a dozen ways in any part of this conversation?



> Millions have reloaded for years without going through your "premium" process and have shot sub MOA groups.


I would argue that.
There are rarely people shooting sub-MOA on any range I've seen...
Most are lead slingers or hunters with no need to shoot sub-MOA, so they simply don't worry about it...

The Sub-MOA shooters I know do some or all these things, 
Or they buy 'Premium' rounds so they CAN shoot sub-MOA.



> I can hammer out a .4" group at 100 yards with my cheap AR that rides around the truck and gets used hard but has its purpose. That's off reloads that are just sized and then off to a magazine.


You are the exception to the 'Beater' AR owner.
Outside of competitions, I don't know any AR owners interested in Sub-MOA grouping.
Most of them just want to waste ammo and heat the 'Boom'...



> It's all the principle. You said the 3 cardinal rules in reloading are application x 3.
> Safety should be one of those, quality and accuracy should be the other 2.
> But hey I'm good with your version.
> The application for you is to deliver "premium" 223 brass to users that generally shoot ARs. Once again there's no niche for it. Like I said bench shooters maybe but not 3 gun.


APPLICATION, to have a brass capable of shooting Sub-MOA, if you choose to use it that way,
WITHOUT having to do all the tedious hand work getting there...
With a cost of 7-10 cents a brass, consistent and ready to load is a deal without putting in hours of preparation in.

APPLICATION, to have a brass that fits in EVERY .223 chambered rifle without issues.

I agree on Safety.
A well reconditioned brass is inherently a safe brass.
Safety would be up to the guy loading it, propellant charge weight, bullet weight/type, ect.

*IF* Reloadable brass came out of a rifle, then there wouldn't be a need for all the tools for primer pockets, case resizing, neck conditioning, ect.

It does NOT, There is a HUGE business in that particular market!

There wouldn't be 'Powered Tools' to help with the TIME consumption.
What's your time worth to produce a useable, resized, prepared brass?

There is economy in scale, the idea is to produce them VERY QUICKLY, and automate the process, just like the original manufacturers do.
Reducing man hours involved with reconditioning the brass to load is the reason for all the small 'Reconditioning' machines...

This just takes it one step further...


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Because you speak as if you way is the bible and any other way is wrong.


I talk about SAAMI specification, simply because that is the industry standard.
What people do with their brass is entirely up to them and the amount of time/safety issues they worry about.



> Brass from the range that picked up I tumbled, sized, uniformed the primer pockets, primed and loaded. Shot sub MOA out of a junkie AR. You said that most of your customer base would be AR shooters, not me.


I said most of the once fired brass on the market went through an autoloader.
An autoloader guy will dump as much ammo as he takes to the range most times,
While bolt gun shooters actually take time to AIM, and they don't dump 30 round mags over and over again.

I can pretty much guarantee most of the military brass was dumped through an auto loader of some kind since .223 bolt rifles are scarce in the military services.



> If you have a custom chamber, SAAMI does not apply, talk to a real wildcatter.


Exactly my point if someone has a chamber that NEEDS a turned down neck on the case to even fit the rifle chamber...



> Yes I trim every case every time, I toss them after I reload 6 times or 7 if new, they might be ok but I won't chance it.


And virtually all the brass I can get in bulk is 'Once Fired' leaving several reloads left to it's life.
The difference is, I'm not paying 'New' price, but producing a product for all intents and purposes is 'New'...



> Yes I Debur all my case just like a primer pocket uniformer, it's not difficult and I can crank out about 100 full rounds in about 2 hours start to finish.


Then why argue the practice of trimming, deburring/chamfering and primer pocket uniforming? 



> I know I MADE your point, why the annealing on once fired brass?


To anneal the military or factory roll crimp, return the case neck to 'Dead Soft' for case neck tension uniformity.



> Why not just size it tumble and let it go you'll have even less time and money in it and be able to turn a profit and maybe compete with actual companies.


The idea wasn't to 'Compete' with others, but surpass what they do,
To give as close to a 'New' case as is practically possible.
Competition would be a question of volume you can reliably produce.



> If it's premium it usually carries a premium price.


Usually is correct. Cost in a 'Free Market' instead of a 'Capitalism' market depends on quality, and a REASONABLE mark up over production/shipping costs,
Marketing isn't the issue it was with the internet,
And the 'Premium' touches seem to sell well at the gun shows so far,
Which is why I'm considering expanding volume of production.
Higher production reduces costs, and I'm just not making enough with the slower way I was doing things... 



> If it doesn't, the people you are targeting may think it's junk unless they see your process. That's where marketing comes into play.


You (and my wife) are correct.
Sales at the gun shows went up when I made signs that pointed out the touches, with pictures of the cutting processes, uniformed primer pockets, ect.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Never argued trimming, argued that you said before sizing you trim a 556 case to 223 length. That's where I argued your statement and it has unfolded to this. 

I don't know what kind of ranges you go to up there but people around here and I'm sure all over the US care about their groups, might not care about the term MOA or sub-MOA but they generally care about their groups. 

Let's just say you pluck up a case that has been reloaded a few too many times but it makes it through your checks and someone loads it up after buying from you and hurts themselves, who is responsible? 

Trimming will get the crimp out if it's even there after firing, case expansion in chamber conversation. 

With more production come more expense. There's a happy place between supply and demand. With more expense comes the need for a higher price to just break even let alone turn a profit. 

My time to reload my rounds is a fun time because I let one of my daughters put the bullet in and let them help me run the press. When I reload for others they usually buy the dies and components, and i generally get to keep the dies or the leftovers. At the end of the day I'm out the time and nothing more.


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## JeepHammer

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Never argued trimming, argued that you said before sizing you trim a 556 case to 223 length. That's where I argued your statement and it has unfolded to this.


If that is the case, I mis-wrote.
I don't trim ANYTHING until the case is sized.
No reason to trim anything until after sizing, as I've said over and over again,
No sense in trimming until the case sides are pushed back in where they belong.

5.56 with military crimp *Usually* are a tiny bit longer because of the military crimp at the case mouth.

The case mouths are also harder because of that crimp,
So annealing returns them to the softened state that's easier to work, and from everything I could find out, and any minor testing I've done,
restores proper case neck tension, or as close to 'New/Soft' as you can get with any crimped case.



> I don't know what kind of ranges you go to up there but people around here and I'm sure all over the US care about their groups, might not care about the term MOA or sub-MOA but they generally care about their groups.


Just like ranges anywhere, 
There are more ammo wasters than accuracy shooters (read: Hunters)
There are more accuracy shooters than match or bench shooters...
Most times you have to wait for a bunch of ammo wasters to run out of ammo before you can get a bench at a public or club range,
That's why I built my own when I moved to the woods...



> Let's just say you pluck up a case that has been reloaded a few too many times but it makes it through your checks and someone loads it up after buying from you and hurts themselves, who is responsible?


That's a LOT of "What If's" stacked up in a row...
First off, what I'm getting by far and wide is Once Fired Military Brass.
I KNOW it's once fired, since the military doesn't reload anything.

*IF* a case gets sucked up that has been reloaded,
Then it's inspected for case wall thickness, a simple 'Feeler' test inside the case to determine if there are low spots on the inside.
(Because of full length resizing, the movement of brass won't show up on the outside)

It has to get into the brass base supply,
Then it has to be missed by automation,
Then it has to get into the hands of someone that will carelessly reload it, 
Since a case separation alone causes a failure to feed...

It would have to be a dangerous reload to be 'Dangerous' and cause injury.
I'm not responsible for the reloading.

The firearm would have to be modified to fire with a round only HALF WAY into the chamber, since a case separation happens at half or usually further down the case towards the head.
When 1/2 to 3/4 of a case is stick in the chamber, that doesn't leave any doubt the bolt WILL NOT close,
And to be 'Dangerous' it will have to fire that case with the bolt open...

Again, ONLY modification of a firearm that will fire with the bolt OPEN, not locked into place, isn't my responsibility, since I didn't modify said firearm.



> Trimming will get the crimp out if it's even there after firing, case expansion in chamber conversation.


Depends on the length of the crimp, how far down the case neck said crimp goes.
Annealing removes the work hardening of the crimp, trimming returns case to SAAMI specificaitons, and usually removes most of the roll crimp factory ammo uses,
Some slight signs of a military crimp are still visible often times, just a touch...

That *Shouldn't* effect the case performance since the neck is annealed, the neck is properly sized,
The case headspaces from the shoulder to the head/bolt face,
The hint of previous crimp shouldn't effect anything.

You know that, I'm sure you have reloaded military brass before...



> With more production come more expense.


Per Piece costs go down dramatically with increased volume.
The cutting tools are only going to cut so many brass before they need changed/sharpened, but again, that's a fixed cost per brass.
Lubrication during the cutting process will increase the lifespan of the cutting edges, but eventually all things will wear out.
It's a fixed cost per brass (or hundred, or thousand) produced.

The dies will wear out over time, become off specification.
Again, it's the same number of uses as a 'Hand' reloader, (Less with proper lubrication & proper cleaning of the cases) 

Operational costs and lifespan of the machine will be the wild card once in full production operation. 
I just don't know what it will take for costs per 10,000 or per 100,000 brass at a time...



> There's a happy place between supply and demand.
> With more expense comes the need for a higher price to just break even let alone turn a profit.


I agree.
Discounting my time to $10 an hour for current production, I still make a little profit.
Automation *Should* effectively reduce my time, while producing 30 or 40 times as much brass...



> My time to reload my rounds is a fun time because I let one of my daughters put the bullet in and let them help me run the press.


That's a GREAT THING!
It's the little moments when kids remember back, the common day to day things that they were happiest...

My dad & grandpa never expected me to be 'Perfect' while puttering around the shop, I got the stuff that was 'Already Broke' to mess around with to figure out how it works, or was supposed to work.
Learning curve at my own pace, instead of telling me I was doing it 'Wrong' and 'Get Out Of The Way'...

Sure it's time 'Inefficient' to let a 10 year old rebuild a carb or starter, when a replacement is cheap,
But the kid learns something, and they get to hang out with 'Dad' & 'Grandpa'!

Kids learn ZERO when dad is staring at the TV or off golfing or whatever...

I'll bet she is PROUD AS ANYTHING to say she 'Helped DAD!' when you are done!
That will stick with her!



> When I reload for others they usually buy the dies and components, and i generally get to keep the dies or the leftovers. At the end of the day I'm out the time and nothing more.


If it's better than 'Import' or 'Cheap' ammo, I'm sure it's more accurate, more consistent, and generally better all the way around.
Reloading 'Components' is what I'm talking about, at some time, you WILL have to buy cases for reloading...
Why not buy cases that are consistent and ready to reload without a ton of quality control checks?

Some people are going to buy 'New' ammo, then keep the cases for reloading,
While not really paying attention to the 'New' rounds, seeing if they are on or close to specification...

Some people simply won't use a used brass for loading.
They *THINK* firing that brass has 'Polluted' the brass in some way.
Being RATIONAL, you and I, and every reloader, knows better than that or we wouldn't reload used cases.

Some people have had bad experiences with 'Reloaded' ammo,
Usually can be traced back to guys that didn't set up the sizing or assembly correctly,
Sometimes faulty components or reloading equipment.

We've all seen the guys that buy a $2,000 (or more!) rifle and buy 'Crap' blasting ammo.
We have seen guys have issues with the firearm, blames the ammo,
Or have issues with the ammo and blames the firearm...

I'm NOT talking about guys that can't get the dies set up to produce SAAMI spec cases, don't even own a length or case gauge...
I'm talking about the guys that can reload a round that performs,
Or wants to reload, but without the time investment/cost investment in case preparation.

Lets face it, you should NOT have to go back over, invest a bunch of time in a 'Ready To Load' case...
It should be just that, READY TO LOAD.


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## JeepHammer

I know this isn't technically 'Reloading', but what I need to do is consider a packaging machine that case checks EVERY CASE before it's boxed.
Every single case, instead of batch QC pulls.

No pass, no packaging.

I had to screw the case gauges to a cable to keep them, some people will steal anything even if they don't know what it's for...
But I leave case gauges out on the tables at the gun shows so you can gauge the bag of brass you are considering.
That also helped. Part of advertisement if I think about it much...
Let the customer VERIFY the 'Claims' of SAAMI specification their own selves.

You will have to show a good 50% of the people how to use the case gauge, but if it makes sales, why not?


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## Bearfootfarm

> Then why all the vitriol, argument, name calling, pages & pages of argument?


Says the one who calls everyone who disagrees "idiots".
No one asked for nor needs your "tutorials", especially when so much of the information is incorrect


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## JeepHammer

Bearfootfarm said:


> Says the one who calls everyone who disagrees "idiots".
> No one asked for nor needs your "tutorials", especially when so much of the information is incorrect


Not really what I'd call an addition to the information pool, but an example of stating ones 'Opinion'.

If you have a CREDIABLE source you believe proves any of the processes discussed inaccurate, by definition, then post those CREDABLE sources up...


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## JeepHammer

Don't know where this post came from, who posted it, or anything else about it & the adjoined link.



> Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
> Are you sure you want to continue calling people liars when they can show proof of what they have stated?
> 
> If you like, I can show you a thread you started to "instruct" everyone on the
> "proper "way to seat bullets, and you argued with this guy:
> 
> http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/ca...bobbitt-2.html



I don't know 'Specifically' what was trying to be said, since it's all jumbled up...
I am not now, and I have NEVER been a part of a 'Sniper Forum' of any kind.


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## JeepHammer

Any chance we could get along with a reloading thread anytime soon, or are there more insults and 'I do it this way' posts you all want to get out of the way?


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## Bearfootfarm

JeepHammer said:


> Not really what I'd call* an addition to the information pool*, but an example of stating ones 'Opinion'.
> 
> If you have a CREDIABLE source you believe proves any of the processes discussed inaccurate, by definition, then post those CREDABLE sources up...


I did that multiple times in the thread about the proper sized balls for BP revolvers, and you continued to say your source was right even when it was contradicted by the same sources own website.

You really haven't said anything here that most didn't already know, and much of what you've said is incorrect.

You're resizing some brass, and nothing more.

It's no longer worth the effort to wade through page after page of you repeating something you read somewhere else, and seeing you call everyone who doesn't pat you on the back an idiot.

Much of what you post here has been the same as you've posted on other sites, arguments and misinformation included

You aren't the only one that belongs to several forums


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## JeepHammer

I guess were aren't done with the vitriolic comments yet...
So lets get it out of our systems.



Bearfootfarm said:


> I did that multiple times in the thread about the proper sized balls for BP revolvers, and you continued to say your source was right even when it was contradicted by the same sources own website.


Someone quoted 'Dixie Gun Works', 
I actually WENT TO DIXIE and got the low down from the owners.
That still wasn't good enough for the internet bunch.
Nothing I can do there.

The main guy in the debate even admitted that patches/proper sized balls made for more accuracy, that didn't end the conversation.
Nothing I can do there.



> You really haven't said anything here that most didn't already know, and much of what you've said is incorrect.


Quote the inconsistences, post them on the appropriate thread.



> You're resizing some brass, and nothing more.


'Resize' is a single function.
If you have read the thread, there are several functions going on.



> It's no longer worth the effort to wade through page after page of you repeating something you read somewhere else, and seeing you call everyone who doesn't pat you on the back an idiot.


Any name calling won't be on my part, due to the 'Warning'...



> Much of what you post here has been the same as you've posted on other sites, arguments and misinformation included
> 
> You aren't the only one that belongs to several forums


Please, DO TELL...
At this point, another right angle tangent isn't going to pollute the thread any more...


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## Bearfootfarm

JeepHammer said:


> Don't know where this post came from, who posted it, or anything else about it & the adjoined link.
> 
> I don't know 'Specifically' what was trying to be said, since it's all jumbled up...
> I am not now, and I have NEVER been a part of a 'Sniper Forum' of any kind.


If you read what I posted, I never said you were a member of *that* forum. 



> Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm View Post
> Are you sure you want to continue calling people liars when they can show proof of what they have stated?
> 
> If you like, I can show you a thread you started to "instruct" everyone on the
> "proper "way to seat bullets, and *you argued with this guy*:


On the other forum where you're posting this same information, when you told them about: 



> I just had a crap fight with a guy on a little firearms section of a forum that wasn't dedicated to firearms....
> *Lots of insults, name calling*, "I do it this way" sorts of things.


I noticed you didn't say it was you doing the name calling, telling those who disagreed they were idiots.



> Any name calling won't be on my part, due to the 'Warning'...


That ship has sailed. 
Why didn't you tell the other guys it was you doing the name calling to begin with? You already know they won't tolerate it there

I'm not rehashing the BP thread. 
It's still there with *links* to multiple sources of data that contradicts all your hearsay.

You still have no credibility as far as I can see.


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## GunMonkeyIntl

Bearfootfarm said:


> You still have no credibility as far as I can see.


Don't worry. It's not your eyes. 
Don't strain them trying to spot it.


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