# Some feller named Omar killed 50+ gays in Florida



## poppy

He was born to Afghan parents. He went into a gay bar in Orlando and committed murder/sewercide. Is it too early to say it was Muslim terrorism? The story is on Drudge.

Now they say cops shot him in the restroom. How appropriate. It doesn't say whether or not he self identified at a female or which restroom he was in. Reports say he was wearing a suicide vest. I sure hope he wasn't a Muslim/refugee/transgender/terrorist. If so, it will take forever to figure out why he did it and who to blame. I suspect it is somehow Trump's fault.


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## 7thswan

It is sickening. It does look like islamic ideology.


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## 7thswan

There was warning.http://shoebat.com/2016/06/09/major...attack-florida-and-slaughter-americans-there/


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## barnbilder

7thswan said:


> It is sickening. It does look like islamic ideology.


Well that is a big assumption to make. Plenty of people came from over there as Christian refugees. And you know how much hate Christians are filled with. Dude probably even ate at Chick-fill-a.


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## Nevada

7thswan said:


> It is sickening. It does look like islamic ideology.


His father says it wasn't religious, but that he had a personal problem with public displays of homosexuality.


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## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> His father says it wasn't religious, but that he had a personal problem with public displays of homosexuality.


Duh. and hateing/murdering homosexuals isn't part of islam?


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## 7thswan

barnbilder said:


> Well that is a big assumption to make. Plenty of people came from over there as Christian refugees. And you know how much hate Christians are filled with. Dude probably even ate at Chick-fill-a.


He was born here, and is muslim.


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## hornless

poppy said:


> He was born to Afghan parents. He went into a gay bar in Orlando and committed murder/sewercide. Is it too early to say it was Muslim terrorism? The story is on Drudge.
> 
> Now they say cops shot him in the restroom. How appropriate. It doesn't say whether or not he self identified at a female or which restroom he was in. Reports say he was wearing a suicide vest. I sure hope he wasn't a Muslim/refugee/transgender/terrorist. If so, it will take forever to figure out why he did it and who to blame. I suspect it is somehow Trump's fault.


Instead of immediately jumping to politicize this event, at least take a moment to acknowledge it for the horrific tragedy that it is. 50 people are dead. Your unbelievably flippant attitude is sickening.


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## Nevada

poppy said:


> Reports say he was wearing a suicide vest.


News is now reporting that as false.


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## ozarkchaz

Prayers to the victims families and survivors. So sad.


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## 7thswan

hornless said:


> Instead of immediately jumping to politicize this event, at least take a moment to acknowledge it for the horrific tragedy that it is. 50 people are dead. Your unbelievably flippant attitude is sickening.


PC has been pushing us to become flippant, don't you get it? And ya it's political, islam is political that's why it's being forced on us.


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## greg273

hornless said:


> Instead of immediately jumping to politicize this event, at least take a moment to acknowledge it for the horrific tragedy that it is. 50 people are dead. Your unbelievably flippant attitude is sickening.


 Its expected, whenever a Muslim crazy does something, you can bet poppy will be on here shouting his same tired rhetoric from the rooftops. He's already expressed his warped view that 'all muslims are out to kill us', so its not surprising.


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## 7thswan

FL. Sen. Bill Nelson already said it's terrorist attack.


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## HDRider

greg273 said:


> Its expected, whenever a Muslim crazy does something, you can bet poppy will be on here shouting his same tired rhetoric from the rooftops. He's already expressed his warped view that 'all muslims are out to kill us', so its not surprising.


And you always remind us it is only about 25%, but we don't know who they are.


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## Nevada

Sad that this guy was able to get his hands on an assault rifle.


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## DryHeat

I'm pretty sure I heard on one of the news streams that he actually had some sort of carry permit and worked as a security guard. Details will follow shortly, so who knows how accurate that is.


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## farmrbrown

There are plenty of Christians and Jews that own Ar-15's.
But they don't walk in to social service buildings in San Bernardino or a nightclub on the other side of the U.S. and start shooting innocent people.
Some have warned y'all who the REAL enemy is but you haven't listened.
When that kid in Charleston shot up that Black church, his own friends and family turned him in.
Let me help you with this last event in Orlando.
The friends and relatives of this man will go on TV and tell everyone that it WASN'T about Islam and they had NO IDEA what was going on.

You either get the picture or you don't.


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## Lisa in WA

DryHeat said:


> I'm pretty sure I heard on one of the news streams that he actually had some sort of carry permit and worked as a security guard. Details will follow shortly, so who knows how accurate that is.


I've seen that too, as well as a pic of him in security uniform.


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## 7thswan

DryHeat said:


> I'm pretty sure I heard on one of the news streams that he actually had some sort of carry permit and worked as a security guard. Details will follow shortly, so who knows how accurate that is.


Yes.and I'm reading of the powers that be, trying to shut down talking of islam and to start with the anti-gun whineing.


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## Nevada

farmrbrown said:


> The friends and relatives of this man will go on TV and tell everyone that it WASN'T about Islam and they had NO IDEA what was going on.


His father said that the shooter was disturbed with public displays of gay affection during a recent visit to Miami. The father seems to have a very good idea about what was going on.


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## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> His father said that the shooter was disturbed with public displays of gay affection during a recent visit to Miami. The father seems to have a very good idea about what was going on.


So? Usally those muslims just throw homosexuals off buildings. This lowlife killed many more. Wounder what the bathroom had to do with the unfolding of this issue, huh?


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## FarmerKat

The terrorist was an ISIS supporter: 

Quote below from this link: http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/index.html



> The 29-year-old suspect was known to the FBI, the officials said -- one of hundreds of people on the agency's radar suspected of being ISIS sympathizers, according to two law enforcement officials.


It has not been determined whether the attack was ISIS inspired or ISIS directed (from this link: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/1...possible-act-islamic-terror.html?intcmp=hpbt1)


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## farmrbrown

Nevada said:


> His father said that the shooter was disturbed with public displays of gay affection during a recent visit to Miami. The father seems to have a very good idea about what was going on.


Yeah.
Lots of thing are "said".
It depends on how well you connect the dots as to whether you are aware of the danger or not......

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html


*"Mateen killed 53 people and shot more than 100 in total at the Pulse gay nightclub early Sunday morning, in the deadliest mass shooting in modern American history.
The senior law enforcement source reports that Mateen became a person of interest in 2013 and again in 2014. The Federal Bureau of Investigation at one point opened an investigation into Mateen but subsequently closed the case when it produced nothing that appeared to warrant further investigation.

&#8220;He&#8217;s a known quantity,&#8221; the source said. &#8220;He&#8217;s been on the radar before.&#8221;*




*&#8220;We are saying we are apologizing for the whole incident,&#8221; the father added. &#8220;We weren&#8217;t aware of any action he is taking. We are in shock like the whole country.&#8221;

The attack, he said, &#8220;has nothing to do with religion.&#8221;
FBI Agent Ron Hopper told reporters Mateen may have had leanings toward Islamic extremism. The law enforcement source told The Daily Beast there is no immediate indication that Mateen had any direct connection to ISIS. Rep. Adam Schiff, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said Mateen had pledged allegiance to ISIS, according to officials from the Department of Homeland Security.
ISIS recently declared online that its followers should mount attacks to mark the approach of the holy month of Ramadan."*



Congressman Bill Nelson, who lives near Cocoa, also confirmed the same info, as he is on the intelligence committee.


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## 7thswan

I read he gave his allegiance to isis while being shot by cops.


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## FarmerKat

I pray for those who are injured and that they pull through. I pray for those who lost their loved ones. I have been in tears all morning. Even it I personally do not know anyone affected, it hits home, I have lived in Orlando for many years, DH grew up not far from the scene of the terror attack, I used to take my kids to doctors in the hospital that is treating the injured .... some of those doctors are probably there helping the victims today. 

But I also pray that we finally wake up and see this for what it is and that if we do not act that people will be dying in attacks like this on a daily basis in the near future. Just like the terrorists in Europe, this guy is a second generation immigrant. Raised here in the US. Parents probably don't appear to be radicals yet they raised their son to become one. Did they come here to simply look for better life or did they come here with this purpose? What will happen in 20-25 years when the next generation is raised by the millions of Muslim migrants flooding western countries? 

And, yes this is political on many levels ... our country's leadership will have to choose sides now - will they support the LGBT community in this event or will they do all they can to cover up the fact that this is an islamist terror attack? It sucks when the reality does not match the agenda. I am sure they are disappointed it was a not a white Christian terrorist.


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## 7thswan

Oh no. I just read more ..please be safe out there people, in large gatherings. Please pay attention to your surroundings.


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## wendle

He walked into the night club at 2:00 AM. The FBI didn't get him until 6:00 AM. That's 4 hours he had to kill people. I have to wonder how it might have ended if somebody else there had a weapon, like maybe a bartender, or owner. Very sad ordeal all around, they were all like sitting ducks.


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## Bearfootfarm

hornless said:


> Instead of immediately jumping to politicize this event, at least take a moment to acknowledge it for the horrific tragedy that it is. 50 people are dead. Your *unbelievably flippant attitude is sickening*.


Yes, it hardly reflects a "christian" attitude at all.


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## 7thswan

Here's what I was reading.http://www.latimes.com/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html
thorities in Santa Monica found possible explosives as well as assault rifles and ammunition Sunday in the car of a man who told them he was in town for the L.A. Pride festival in West Hollywood, a law enforcement source said.

Early Sunday, Santa Monica police received a call of a suspected prowler near Olympic Boulevard and 11th Street. Patrol officers responded and encountered an individual who told officers he was waiting for a friend. That led officers to inspect the car and find several weapons and a lot of ammunition as well as tannerite, an ingredient that could be used to create a pipe bomb.

The car had Indiana plates. The man made comments that he was in town for the Pride event in West Hollywood this weekend. The source said authorities did not know of any connection between the gay nightclub shooting in Orlando, Fla., early Sunday morning and the Santa Monica incident. The investigation has been taken over by the FBI.


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## Bearfootfarm

Nevada said:


> Sad that this guy was able to get his hands on an assault rifle.


Would you be happier if he had used a couple of gallons of gas?
Don't act like Poppy
Let all the bodies get cold before you start spinning your agendas


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## farmrbrown

CBS news is now reporting on the 911 call the *gunman * made from the nightclub.
He repeated his ISIS pledge, mentioned the Boston bombers, and more info is coming out.


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## arabian knight

Breaking on Fox:

Man arrested with weapons headed to Los Angeles gay pride parade...developing...


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## 7thswan

Bearfootfarm said:


> Would you be happier if he had used a couple of gallons of gas?
> Don't act like Poppy
> Let all the bodies get cold before you start spinning your agendas


Poppy is just in shock. Not flippant. I have family in Orlando,my sis is gay, I had my second of shock and am looking for info. Sadly BFF, they say most of those in the trama center are "gravely injured".


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## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, it hardly reflects a "christian" attitude at all.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Would you be happier if he had used a couple of gallons of gas?
> Don't act like Poppy
> Let all the bodies get cold before you start spinning your agendas


I'm surprised you didn't just say that this event was all all "imaginary" and we had a mental illness.
Taking lectures from a non believer on how to be a Christian isn't advice that I'll be taking, thank you.


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## 7thswan

farmrbrown said:


> CBS news is now reporting on the 911 call the *gunman * made from the nightclub.
> He repeated his ISIS pledge, mentioned the Boston bombers, and more info is coming out.


For some reason... people refuse to acknowledge that the BB were known and the USA were warned by Russia.


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## FarmerKat

7thswan said:


> Poppy is just in shock. Not flippant. I have family in Orlando,my sis is gay, I had my second of shock and am looking for info. Sadly BFF, they say most of those in the trama center are "gravely injured".


I hope your family members are okay.


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## Nevada

farmrbrown said:


> There are plenty of Christians and Jews that own Ar-15's.
> But they don't walk in to social service buildings in San Bernardino or a nightclub on the other side of the U.S. and start shooting innocent people.
> Some have warned y'all who the REAL enemy is but you haven't listened.


Your statement prompted me to do a little research.

While the Pulse nightclub shooting is the most deadly mass shooting incident, none of the next 5 most deadly mass shootings involved Muslims.

* 32 killed. Va Tech.
* 27 killed. Sandy Hook.
* 23 killed. Luby's Cafeteria, Killeen, TX
* 21 killed. McDonalds, San Ysidro, CA.
* 18 killed. Texas Sniper, U of Texas, Austin, TX.
http://kfor.com/2016/06/12/30-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history/


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## 7thswan

FarmerKat said:


> I hope your family members are okay.


 Sis called she is OK, niece ok. Sis says the blood banks are turning people away there are so many donating blood.


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## farmrbrown

7thswan said:


> Poppy is just in shock. Not flippant. I have family in Orlando,my sis is gay, I had my second of shock and am looking for info. Sadly BFF, they say most of those in the trama center are "gravely injured".


Same here. Just got off the phone with DIL, about 15 miles away.
My wife had once been to that bar years ago with one of her gay friends.
She has a granddaughter entering college at one of the Florida universities which shall remain nameless.


> I don't anticipate our muslim president doing a darn thing about this except to try and disarm our non muslim citizens so they can kill more of us.
> 
> It's time for a change in the watchman's alarm call............


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## farmrbrown

Nevada said:


> Your statement prompted me to do a little research.
> 
> While the Pulse nightclub shooting is the most deadly mass shooting incident, none of the next 5 most deadly mass shootings involved Muslims.
> 
> * 32 killed. Va Tech.
> * 27 killed. Sandy Hook.
> * 23 killed. Luby's Cafeteria, Killeen, TX
> * 21 killed. McDonalds, San Ysidro, CA.
> * 18 killed. Texas Sniper, U of Texas, Austin, TX.
> http://kfor.com/2016/06/12/30-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history/


Thank you, Obama press agent.
:grit:


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## Nevada

farmrbrown said:


> Thank you, Obama press agent.
> :grit:


I'm just keeping it real.


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## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, it hardly reflects a "christian" attitude at all.


Says you. Just trying to get the facts out before the media started blaming it on some conservative Christian. There's no denying it was a horrific attack. What else is there to say? How many of these horrific attacks have we seen now? Don't you see a pattern? Someone kills a bunch of people. The media downplays any ties to terrorism at first. Then it dribbles out that the attacker(s) have Arabic names but their families disavow their kids were terrorists. Then we find they support ISIS or some other murdering group. Yes, sometimes Christians or just some nut will go off the deep end and kill people. No one is denying that. However, in recent times, it is nearly always Muslims. You can't deny that either.


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## farmrbrown

Yeah.
Your hero is having a press conference as we speak.
He is talking about assault weapons.
Never mind the guy worked security at a juvenile detention center and had all necessary permits.
Never mind that the muslim president is trying to disarm us so his muslim friends can take over............as I predicted he would a few minutes ago.
Never mind the watchman...........he's a nut. Just ignore him.

suicide icon here


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## JJ Grandits

When this first happened I said to my wife that the powers that be will blame an inanimate object instead of the insane perpetrator.

I was right.


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## wendle

7 out of the 10 are in the last 8 years, in other words, while Obama was president. http://timelines.latimes.com/media/event_images/61/6af2879a-5fec-4929-8cac-dfb4f20d306e.png


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## greg273

farmrbrown said:


> Thank you, Obama press agent.
> :grit:


 Aw, someone doesn't like the truth.


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## poppy

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah.
> Your hero is having a press conference as we speak.
> He is talking about assault weapons.
> Never mind the guy worked security at a juvenile detention center and had all necessary permits.
> Never mind that the muslim president is trying to disarm us so his muslim friends can take over............as I predicted he would a few minutes ago.
> Never mind the watchman...........he's a nut. Just ignore him.
> 
> suicide icon here


I missed his speech, thankfully. I'm not surprised he focused on guns. Did he even mention Islamic terrorism and tell us again how peaceful Muslims are and that we need to bring a lot more of them into the country? It's always those danged guns. I admonished mine this morning and told them firmly not to do anything like that AK did. They've been obeying me for 50 years. Good guns.


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## Nevada

wendle said:


> 7 out of the 10 are in the last 8 years, in other words, while Obama was president. http://timelines.latimes.com/media/event_images/61/6af2879a-5fec-4929-8cac-dfb4f20d306e.png


If you're suggesting that we hold the president responsible for bad things that happen under his watch, I'm not sure you want to go there. If you do that then you'll have to hold GWB responsible for 9/11.


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## mreynolds

Nevada said:


> Your statement prompted me to do a little research.
> 
> While the Pulse nightclub shooting is the most deadly mass shooting incident, none of the next 5 most deadly mass shootings involved Muslims.
> 
> * 32 killed. Va Tech.
> * 27 killed. Sandy Hook.
> * 23 killed. Luby's Cafeteria, Killeen, TX
> * 21 killed. McDonalds, San Ysidro, CA.
> * 18 killed. Texas Sniper, U of Texas, Austin, TX.
> http://kfor.com/2016/06/12/30-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history/


I know the incident commander at the McDonalds shooting. He doesn't talk about it much.


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## poppy

Nevada said:


> If you're suggesting that we hold the president responsible for bad things that happen under his watch, I'm not sure you want to go there. If you do that then you'll have to hold GWB responsible for 9/11.



Think a bit. Remember Obama's apology tour early on? Remember how he promised a kinder gentler US approach to Muslims? Remember all the Muslim refugees he has been/is bringing into the country? We were told those policies would make Muslims like us more. Has it worked? No, they hate us more than ever. Muslims spot weakness a mile off and will take advantage of it every time, even if they are just bartering with each other. Trump is right. Obama is not a leader and neither is Clinton. They are apologists. So, if not Obama, who should we blame? Certainly Clinton had a hand in it too. Yes, Obama/Clinton supports have blood on their hands too.


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## farmrbrown

greg273 said:


> Aw, someone doesn't like the truth.


Yes, there are MANY on here that hate the truth. They do whatever they can to distract or excuse the truth.
The truth is the fear expressed about the christian conservatives killing gays was responded to with the fact that you had more to worry about from the muslims.
Now the truth woke us up this morning.


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## greg273

poppy said:


> I missed his speech, thankfully. I'm not surprised he focused on guns. Did he even mention Islamic terrorism and tell us again how peaceful Muslims are and that we need to bring a lot more of them into the country? It's always those danged guns. I admonished mine this morning and told them firmly not to do anything like that AK did. They've been obeying me for 50 years. Good guns.


 He didn't 'focus' on guns. There was ONE sentence in the whole speech where he mentioned how easy it was to obtain weapons. Thats it. No need to just make things up poppy. Funny how you comment on the speech* after *admitting you missed it.


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## greg273

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, there are MANY on here that hate the truth. .


 Do you hate the fact that the vast majority of Muslims don't want you dead?


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## farmrbrown

Well I admit that I turned it off after I heard his disgusting comment. The whole speech lasted only a few minutes, because when I turned back and it was over.
I imagine he had more important things to do - like play golf.


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## farmrbrown

greg273 said:


> Do you hate the fact that the vast majority of Muslims don't want you dead?


I hate the fact that I have NO way of knowing if that is true.
Do you?


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## poppy

farmrbrown said:


> I hate the fact that I have NO way of knowing if that is true.
> Do you?


No he doesn't, but he has a feeling he is right. He probably also knows a few who haven't killed anyone and assumes all Muslims are like them. The Omar in last night's shooting was reportedly a security guard and I'll wager no one saw him as a threat either, until last night when he became a deadly threat. The problem with Muslims is you can't tell the good from the bad just by looking at them or even knowing them. Most of us know to stay away from goofy acting groups of young ******** or young blacks wearing hoodies gathered on a street corner. We also realize ********, old or young, out fishing aren't likely to be a problem at all. Same with older black folks at Walmart or in church. How does one identify a terrorist supporting Muslim? It can't be done until they snap.


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## poppy

This article says Omar was investigated by the FBI is 2013 and 2014, so they were aware of him. If true, why was he allowed to have firearms? Probably some PC rules put out by this administration. It doesn't say why they investigated him but there had to be a reason. Also, some IMAM in Florida said gays need to be killed out of "compassion". Why isn't he is jail for inciting violence?

https://pjmedia.com/homeland-securi...olf-terrorist-previously-investigated-by-fbi/


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## bjba

The Islamic State has claimed responsibility for the attack. Mr. Mateen had a class g Florida license (state wide license to open carry issued to security guards). If his problem was only with homosexuals he surely had a hate on. Witnesses said Mr. Mateen was heard to shout Allah Akbar several times.


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## mnn2501

> Solemn Obama calls for gun control action and DOESN'T link Orlando nightclub terror attack to Islam in address to nation



www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-36...lando-terror-attack-Islam-address-nation.html



> The president started his remarks by addressing where things stood in the investigation.
> 'We are still learning the facts. This is an open investigation. *We have reached no definitive judgment on the precise motivations of the killer,'* Obama said.
> 
> 
> *NBC News reported earlier that the gunman, identified as 29-year-old **Omar Mateen, had called 911 before he staged his attack and pledged allegiance to ISIS*.



NBC has better intelligence that Obama?! Who elected this...... :nono:?


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## mnn2501

Nevada said:


> Sad that this guy was able to get his hands on an assault rifle.


Sad that someone with ties to isil was running round loose. He had been on the FBI's radar every since he went to Afghanistan.


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## 7thswan

bjba said:


> The Islamic State has claimed responsibility for the attack. Mr. Mateen had a class g Florida license (state wide license to open carry issued to security guards). If his problem was only with homosexuals he surely had a hate on. Witnesses said Mr. Mateen was heard to shout Allah Akbar several times.


In one of the other attacks, movie theater IIRC it seems there were "insiders' that propped the back door open for the perp. I would not be supprised if this shooter became a security guard for reasons the same.


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## farmrbrown

That's just it.
Look at how they do it in Afghanistan, where Omar's parents are from.
Infiltrate the security forces, carry a weapon legally and shoot them when their backs are turned.
The entire culture and religion is built on cowardly attacks.
Expel of all of them in this country before it's too late.

The final warning of the watchman.


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## poppy

mnn2501 said:


> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-36...lando-terror-attack-Islam-address-nation.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NBC has better intelligence that Obama?! Who elected this...... :nono:?


Obama knew full well this guy was an Islamic terrorist. He NEVER blames Islamic terrorism for these attacks. IOW, he was lying as usual.


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## poppy

I see they arrested another guy in California with guns and explosives headed to a gay parade. No mention of the guy's ethnicity or religion and police said they are not sure if it is related to the shooting in Florida or not. Could just be a nut or a coincidence but it sounds suspicious.


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## wendle

Nevada said:


> If you're suggesting that we hold the president responsible for bad things that happen under his watch, I'm not sure you want to go there. If you do that then you'll have to hold GWB responsible for 9/11.


Is that one on GWB watch?


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## wendle

poppy said:


> Think a bit. Remember Obama's apology tour early on? Remember how he promised a kinder gentler US approach to Muslims? Remember all the Muslim refugees he has been/is bringing into the country? We were told those policies would make Muslims like us more. Has it worked? No, they hate us more than ever. Muslims spot weakness a mile off and will take advantage of it every time, even if they are just bartering with each other. Trump is right. Obama is not a leader and neither is Clinton. They are apologists. So, if not Obama, who should we blame? Certainly Clinton had a hand in it too. Yes, Obama/Clinton supports have blood on their hands too.


 I have to wonder how much worse it might get if Hillary is elected.


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## CurtisWilliams

poppy said:


> Think a bit. So, if not Obama, who should we blame?


 So Poppy, who should we blame? I have an insane idea. Lets blame the person pulling the trigger instead of a figure head a thousand miles away!!!

While I have MANY problems and issues with Obama's policies, he did not pull the trigger. His policies are incapable of pulling the trigger. Policies are ideas, and have NO corporeal substance. 

This act was performed by an inhumane being, and was not sanctioned my our mis-administration.

This person acted on his free volition with fatal consequenses. How can ANYONE else be held accountable?

In your own words "THINK A BIT"!!! Even a little bit. Please.


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## watcher

Nevada said:


> Sad that this guy was able to get his hands on an assault rifle.


No need to worry we know this must be a story from the Onion because the nightclub is a gun free zone therefore no one could ever be shot in it.

BTW he's got a way to go to match Julio GonzÃ¡lez's record. Good old Julio killed 87 people in a night club. W/o googling can you tell me what kind of firearm he used to kill them?


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## wendle

It was a gun free zone 
http://crimeresearch.org/2016/06/ma...e-died-in-a-shooting-at-an-orlando-nightclub/


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## cfuhrer

Nevada said:


> I'm just keeping it real.


Then why use the misnomer "assault rifle"?

http://www.assaultweapon.info/


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## greg273

farmrbrown said:


> That's just it.
> Look at how they do it in Afghanistan, where Omar's parents are from.
> Infiltrate the security forces, carry a weapon legally and shoot them when their backs are turned.
> The entire culture and religion is built on cowardly attacks.
> Expel of all of them in this country before it's too late.
> 
> The final warning of the watchman.


 Thankfully, extremists such as yourself have very little power.


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## barnbilder

We need more money for education. It's obvious that this guy wasn't able to read very well, or he would have seen the gun free signs. I don't think hanging out at any large event would be a good idea until after Ramadan, from what I'm seeing on the web.


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## DryHeat

Mods, may I suggest you do some deleting or moving of posts that focus on anti-Obama crackpot Trumper birtherism derivatives? There's the semi-hidden political posting area for that junk and I'm getting tired of some few pinheads here launching into their blatant Republican (or worse) nonsense on the slightest excuse.


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## Nevada

cfuhrer said:


> Then why use the misnomer "assault rifle"?http://www.assaultweapon.info/


I don't know that it's a misnomer. The news reported that he had a handgun and an assault rifle. Maybe it was an assault rifle and maybe it wasn't, but all we have to go on right now is what the police are telling us.

_At a news conference, Chief John Mina of the Orlando Police Department said the weapons recovered from the dead suspect included a handgun and an âAR-15-type *assault rifle*,â along with additional rounds._
http://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/assault-rifle-is-among-weapons/

I don't know for sure. I wasn't there and I haven't even seen a photo of the weapons. What makes you think it wasn't an assault rifle?

But why is this important? I think all of us wonder why this shooting was so bad. Was it the setting, pre-planning, training, or just what? Perhaps all of those factors played a part in the severity of the attack, but I think we can agree that the type of weapon was also a factor.


----------



## cfuhrer

Nevada said:


> What makes you think it wasn't an assault rifle?


Because "assault rifle" has a specific criteria and the AR 15 does not meet the criteria.


----------



## Nevada

cfuhrer said:


> Because "assault rifle" has a specific criteria and the AR 15 does not meet the criteria.


The police chief didn't say it was an AR-15, he said it was an "AR-15-type assault rifle." That's not very specific. I take that to mean it's an assault rifle that looks similar to an AR-15. But we'll have to wait and see to know for sure.


----------



## barnbilder

Why are they incorrectly labeling this as the worst massacre in US history? They killed 150 people at wounded knee. I guess it's not really a massacre when the government does it.

I can't really see it being an assault rifle. They are really hard to get and you have to get lots of costly permits.


----------



## Nevada

barnbilder said:


> Why are they incorrectly labeling this as the worst massacre in US history?


It's being called the worst mass shooting incident, not the worst massacre.



barnbilder said:


> I can't really see it being an assault rifle. They are really hard to get and you have to get lots of costly permits.


Why would that stop a terrorist?


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> The police chief didn't say it was an AR-15, he said it was an "AR-15-type assault rifle." That's not very specific. I take that to mean it's an assault rifle that looks similar to an AR-15. But we'll have to wait and see to know for sure.


Assault rifles are illegal, you can't buy one without the proper credentials. But you knew that, so why parrot the lies?


----------



## Shrek

wendle said:


> It was a gun free zone
> http://crimeresearch.org/2016/06/ma...e-died-in-a-shooting-at-an-orlando-nightclub/


 I wonder how many of the club goers would have appreciated just one attendee with a six shot revolver or even a derringer 10 feet or so to the side of the shooter with a clear aim for just one head shot on the shooter.?


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> It's being called the worst mass shooting incident, not the worst massacre.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would that stop a terrorist?


How many folks were killed at the direction from Janet Reno and Bill Clinton at Waco?
You can't stop a terrorist, period. Profiling really does work.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Isis claimed responsibility for the attack. It was Islamic terrorism. It's not a gun problem. They can get any weapons they choose. Heck we gave them to them. No law would have prevented this. It's very sad.


----------



## Nevada

JeffreyD said:


> Assault rifles are illegal, you can't buy one without the proper credentials. But you knew that, so why parrot the lies?


Again, why would that stop a terrorist from getting one? After all, it was a suicide mission. It's not like he was concerned that he might get stuck with paying a fine.


----------



## barnbilder

Nevada said:


> Why would that stop a terrorist?


The BATF is not likely to issue the specific FFL needed to obtain an assault rifle to anyone that could potentially be a terrorist. They might smuggle one from a buddy back home, but doubtful they would make it through customs.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> Again, why would that stop a terrorist from getting one? After all, it was a suicide mission. It's not like he was concerned that he might get stuck with paying a fine.


Because no one can just walk into a gun store and buy one. But he could buy a pressure cooker without a permit.

What about my other questions Nevada, are you going to ignore those like you always do? Why, cause they make you question your agenda?


----------



## bjba

Nevada said:


> Again, why would that stop a terrorist from getting one? After all, it was a suicide mission. It's not like he was concerned that he might get stuck with paying a fine.


You are both wrong. Assault rifles (fully automatic weapons) are not illegal they are heavily regulated and fines and imprisonment are mandated for illegal possession of a fully automatic weapon. You are right in that the perpetrator would not care about the fine or prison sentence when he would be hanging out in Paradise.


----------



## barnbilder

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev-OzHQy94[/ame]

Wonder if the guy went to church with this imam?


----------



## popscott

Interesting read....

Omar Mateen: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-...attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/


----------



## Heritagefarm

......


----------



## Nevada

JeffreyD said:


> What about my other questions Nevada, are you going to ignore those like you always do? Why, cause they make you question your agenda?


I was ignoring your question because it's absurd. Waco wasn't a mass shooting incident, it was a fire.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Westboro says God sent the shooter. I hope no one here agrees with that.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Heritagefarm said:


> Westboro says God sent the shooter. I hope no one here agrees with that.


I just read that and nearly lost my supper.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Irish Pixie said:


> I just read that and nearly lost my supper.


Those heinous louses make me lose faith in humanity.


----------



## Cornhusker

greg273 said:


> Aw, someone doesn't like the truth.


You finally admit Obama hates the truth


----------



## wendle

So, why is the government once again telling us guns are bad instead of telling us how to defend ourselves against terrorists.


----------



## Cornhusker

greg273 said:


> Thankfully, extremists such as yourself have very little power.


Insulting another member, ain't you a big boy now :rotfl:


----------



## Cornhusker

Nevada said:


> It's being called the worst mass shooting incident, not the worst massacre.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would that stop a terrorist?


Why would gun control stop a terrorist?
Obama is giddy with delight, he gets to crow about gun control, disarm the innocent is his motto.
What kind of leader disarms his own people when they are under attack?
He's no leader, and in fact was most likely behind the attaack


----------



## Heritagefarm

wendle said:


> So, why is the government once again telling us guns are bad instead of telling us how to defend ourselves against terrorists.


Omar obtained his gun legally. How many other shooters will do the same?


----------



## Cornhusker

wendle said:


> So, why is the government once again telling us guns are bad instead of telling us how to defend ourselves against terrorists.


Because Obama, Clinton and the other traitors from the left are not on our sied
Obama always sides with muslims over us


----------



## Heritagefarm

Cornhusker said:


> He's no leader, and in fact was most likely behind the attaack


No there's a conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. :whistlin:


----------



## no really

Heritagefarm said:


> Omar obtained his gun legally. How many other shooters will do the same?


Gun ownership restrictions did not stop the Paris attacks either. So either way they manage to accomplish their objective.


----------



## Heritagefarm

no really said:


> Gun ownership restrictions did not stop the Paris attacks either. So either way they manage to accomplish their objective.


Yeah, that's true. And if not, then really determined people get it off the black market.


----------



## wr

Heritagefarm said:


> Those heinous louses make me lose faith in humanity.


Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


----------



## farmrbrown

greg273 said:


> Thankfully, extremists such as yourself have very little power.


Yeah, better to have THIS guy in power.........



barnbilder said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev-OzHQy94
> 
> Wonder if the guy went to church with this imam?


Thank you for posting that, I hope everyone sees it. It is from eyewitness news channel 9, in Orlando, FL.


----------



## farmrbrown

wr said:


> Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


People have different ways of handling bad situations Ms. Moderator.
When my hometown is attacked, I concentrate on eliminating the enemy first, grief can wait for a more convenient time.


----------



## Cornhusker

Heritagefarm said:


> No there's a conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. :whistlin:


Obama loves this stuff
He gets a chance to say "don't pick on muslims" and "we need to take away the guns"
Muslims have no fear of him, he's a weak, spineless traitor who will never blame the real culprits.
It's always our fault.
He's capable of being behind this, there's no doubt, and it's just up his alley.
He has no integrity, all he cares about is killing this country, and he's doing a fine job.
How anyone can support his actions is beyond me.


----------



## Cornhusker

wr said:


> Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


If we keep blaming inanimate objects, this will continue
It is political, there's no doubt and there's no doubt who'd to blame


----------



## MO_cows

Cornhusker said:


> Why would gun control stop a terrorist?
> Obama is giddy with delight, he gets to crow about gun control, disarm the innocent is his motto.
> What kind of leader disarms his own people when they are under attack?
> He's no leader, and in fact was most likely behind the attaack


Giddy with delight? Went one toke over the line there. At least one.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Says you. *Just trying to get the facts out* before the media started blaming it on some conservative Christian. There's no denying it was a horrific attack. What else is there to say? How many of these horrific attacks have we seen now? Don't you see a pattern? Someone kills a bunch of people. The media downplays any ties to terrorism at first. Then it dribbles out that the attacker(s) have Arabic names but their families disavow their kids were terrorists. Then we find they support ISIS or some other murdering group. Yes, sometimes Christians or just some nut will go off the deep end and kill people. No one is denying that. However, in recent times, it is nearly always Muslims. You can't deny that either.


Save that BS for the gullible
I saw what you said


----------



## Bearfootfarm

7thswan said:


> In one of the other attacks, movie theater IIRC it seems there were *"insiders' that propped the back door open* for the perp. I would not be supprised if this shooter became a security guard for reasons the same.


Nope, that's not accurate at all.
Holmes propped the door open himself


----------



## Bearfootfarm

JeffreyD said:


> Assault rifles are* illegal,* you can't buy one without the proper credentials. But you knew that, so why parrot the lies?


They aren't illegal, as you admitted when you contradicted your own claim


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shrek said:


> I wonder how many of the club goers would have appreciated just one attendee with a six shot revolver or even a derringer 10 feet or so to the side of the shooter with a clear aim for just one head shot on the shooter.?


The armed LEO outside the store couldn't stop him

What's *really* sad is with over 200 people in the club, they let one guy with a gun control them all


----------



## Txsteader

CurtisWilliams said:


> S
> This person acted on his free volition with fatal consequenses.* How can ANYONE else be held accountable?
> *
> In your own words "THINK A BIT"!!! Even a little bit. Please.


Good question. Why are law-abiding gun owners punished/restricted for acts done by one outlaw? They are, in effect, being held accountable for the criminal acts of others.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Vahomesteaders said:


> Isis claimed responsibility for the attack. It was Islamic terrorism. It's not a gun problem. They can get any weapons they choose. Heck we gave them to them. No law would have prevented this. It's very sad.


It's easy for them to say that.
It doesn't mean it's true


----------



## Bearfootfarm

barnbilder said:


> The BATF is not likely to issue the specific FFL needed to obtain an assault rifle to anyone that could potentially be a terrorist. They might smuggle one from a buddy back home, but doubtful they would make it through customs.


No FFL is needed to purchase a Class III firearm


----------



## DAVID In Wisconsin

wr said:


> Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


I believe that every single poster here feels for the dead, the injured and their families and friends without specifically saying those very words. Part of that empathy could be trying to figure out what evil caused this. Surely you realize that.


----------



## poppy

wr said:


> Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


How many times can you grieve for murdered people without naming the real problem? Of course anyone murdered is a tragedy and now many times does it need said? Israel had 3 murdered last week by a Muslim and it barely made the news here because we expect it over there. There was no grieving for those 3 or even any mention of it on here that I saw but, per capita, it was larger than these killings in Florida. Who has been grieving for young blacks killed weekly in Chicago? We've become immune to them just like we will victims of these terror attacks as they become commonplace, which they will. Those who criticize us for pointing out the dangers of bringing more Muslims into this country don't even understand these attacks are what we want to prevent. Enough of them are radical enough, or become radical enough, to make these things a regular occurrence.


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> No FFL is needed to purchase a Class III firearm


Lest your reply make someone thing they are easy to buy, they are not. You need a form signed by the chief LEO officer of your area okaying the transfer. You then pay a $200 fee and then wait 6 to 12 months to get approval to pick up the weapon.


----------



## wendle

Heritagefarm said:


> Omar obtained his gun legally. How many other shooters will do the same?


I don't care that he got it legally, we should still be prepared for terrorist attacks.


----------



## poppy

wendle said:


> I don't care that he got it legally, we should still be prepared for terrorist attacks.


Since he was interviewed on two occasions by the FBI, I would think that should be enough to put him on the "do not sell" list. The FBI says their interviews with him were "inconclusive". That should raise red flags. Of course he was going to lie in an interview and they knew that, but there had to be something that caused them not to completely clear him.


----------



## Shine

Practically any semi-auto can be turned into a full auto weapon with just a little time, a tool or two and some know-how.


----------



## Heritagefarm

wr said:


> Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


We have become desensitized to this. This is no longer news to us. It's just something else on the page of a magazine now, "Look, another nut job killed some people with a gun." We have more gun homicide victims than any other developed country, by a LONG shot. But everyone's convinced we need more guns...










http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2015/10/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/


----------



## arabian knight

Shine said:


> Practically any semi-auto can be turned into a full auto weapon with just a little time, a tool or two and some know-how.


 OR you can do this, and make it a simulated auto fire And No Tools Required. LOL This is cool. Bump Fire 

[YOUTUBE]?v=wnBAyOAiUIM[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## barnbilder

Just a few things I have learned. The shooter was a registered democrat, had a criminal justice degree, and did security work. He did some work that involved transporting illegal immigrants. His father, has his own TV show, is running for president of Afghanistan, has spent time at the capitol, had his picture made with Crazy Charlie Wrangel, and though the Taliban were generally a bunch of good guys. 

I can't believe that people are using this opportunity to lecture us about gun violence, and bother repeating anything stated by Westboro Babtist in their constant quest for attention, while we have church leaders, here in the US, that are saying "the only compassionate thing you can do for gay people, is to kill them." Is there an elephant in the room?

We are at war, whether we want to be or not, every single one of us.


----------



## poppy

Heritagefarm said:


> We have become desensitized to this. This is no longer news to us. It's just something else on the page of a magazine now, "Look, another nut job killed some people with a gun." We have more gun homicide victims than any other developed country, by a LONG shot. But everyone's convinced we need more guns...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2015/10/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/


Remove the gang related drug and turf wars from those numbers and we're probably no worse than other countries even though the vast majority of guns are not in the hands of gang members. IOW, it's not a gun problem, it is a culture problem. The chart has us at about 5 deaths per 100,000 population. Look at this chart with some city numbers over 65 per 100,000 and, considering the cities are where the majority of our population is, you can see how the city numbers would affect our national numbers.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ings-chicago-nowhere-near-u-s-murder-capital/


----------



## Shrek

Bearfootfarm said:


> The armed LEO outside the store couldn't stop him
> 
> What's *really* sad is with over 200 people in the club, they let one guy with a gun control them all


 True. Even in a gun free turkey shoot environment as a night club, there should have been enough people to throw themselves on the shooter greatly reducing the casualty count.


----------



## greg273

barnbilder said:


> We are at war, whether we want to be or not, every single one of us.


 Yep, we've been at war with radical Islamists since at LEAST 9-11-01, and arguably long before that. 
Luckily most Muslims aren't radical, fudamentalist jihadis, just like most Christians aren't abortion-clinic bombing radicals.


----------



## Shine

greg273 said:


> Yep, we've been at war with radical Islamists since at LEAST 9-11-01, and arguably long before that.


Intentionally, including some non-radicals.


----------



## Heritagefarm

poppy said:


> Remove the gang related drug and turf wars from those numbers and we're probably no worse than other countries even though the vast majority of guns are not in the hands of gang members. IOW, it's not a gun problem, it is a culture problem. The chart has us at about 5 deaths per 100,000 population. Look at this chart with some city numbers over 65 per 100,000 and, considering the cities are where the majority of our population is, you can see how the city numbers would affect our national numbers.
> 
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ings-chicago-nowhere-near-u-s-murder-capital/


Worthless attempt to skew the numbers in your favor. I'm not even going to tell you where you weren't wrong if you can see it. The chart lists our country at deaths per 100000, so the cities won't change that assure from having a disproportionately high homicide rate. Which oddly enough matches some of those Middle East countries you detest so.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Lest your reply make someone thing they are easy to buy, they are not. *You need a form* signed by the chief LEO officer of your area okaying the transfer. You then pay a $200 fee and then wait 6 to 12 months to get approval to pick up the weapon.


That's not an FFL, that's a "Form 4", and has nothing to do with the claims that were made about needing an FFL or being "illegal" to purchase.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Since he was interviewed on two occasions by the FBI, I would think that *should be enough* to put him on the "do not sell" list. The FBI says their interviews with him were "inconclusive". That should raise red flags. Of course he was going to lie in an interview and they knew that, but there had to be something that caused them not to completely clear him.


So you think they should ignore the laws and just arbitrarily place people on a "list"?

That's what BO says all the time. You might be on some lists too


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Practically any semi-auto can be turned into a full auto weapon with just a little time, a tool or two and some know-how.


It's really not that easy unless you just want it to slam fire, which is quite dangerous. It's also highly illegal to possess an altered weapon. 

There's no real advantage to full auto outside military combat


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> We have become desensitized to this. This is no longer news to us. It's just something else on the page of a magazine now, "Look, another nut job killed some people with a gun." We have more gun homicide victims than any other developed country, by a LONG shot. But everyone's convinced we need more guns...
> 
> http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2015/10/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/


Those types of comparisons are pretty lame considering some of the countries are smaller than our largest cities, and have totally outlawed firearms.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> I don't know that it's a misnomer. The news reported that he had a handgun and an assault rifle. Maybe it was an assault rifle and maybe it wasn't, but all we have to go on right now is what the police are telling us.
> 
> _At a news conference, Chief John Mina of the Orlando Police Department said the weapons recovered from the dead suspect included a handgun and an âAR-15-type *assault rifle*,â along with additional rounds._
> http://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/assault-rifle-is-among-weapons/
> 
> I don't know for sure. I wasn't there and I haven't even seen a photo of the weapons. What makes you think it wasn't an assault rifle?
> 
> But why is this important? I think all of us wonder why this shooting was so bad. Was it the setting, pre-planning, training, or just what? Perhaps all of those factors played a part in the severity of the attack, but I think we can agree that the type of weapon was also a factor.


Mainly because its dang hard and very, very expensive to get a legal true assault rifle. To be an assault rifle it must be capable of full or burst fire making it a Class III weapon which many states refuse to allow their subjects to own (I don't know about FL) and as such it would have had to be manufactured and licensed for private ownership before 1982.

If this guy had a bit more training he would have known a semiautomatic rifle is not the best weapon for causing the most casualties in a close combat environment. If he had been "better" trained and used the "proper" weapon(s) the body count would have been much higher.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those types of comparisons are pretty lame considering some of the countries are smaller than our largest cities, and have totally outlawed firearms.


You're right. Here a better article with a lot of graphs that I'm too tired to look at right now:

http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/


----------



## poppy

Heritagefarm said:


> Worthless attempt to skew the numbers in your favor. I'm not even going to tell you where you weren't wrong if you can see it. The chart lists our country at deaths per 100000, so the cities won't change that assure from having a disproportionately high homicide rate. Which oddly enough matches some of those Middle East countries you detest so.


That is nonsense. If a city has 1/3 of the population of its state and has a gun death rate of 20 per 100,000 while the rest of the state has 2/3 of the population and only a 2 per 100,000 gun death rate, It is plain to see how the city death rate will affect the overall death rate of the state.


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> Westboro says God sent the shooter. I hope no one here agrees with that.


If you believe that God is in control, as most religions do, how can you not agree with it?

If you read the Bible you will find that God sent the Israelites to kill off entire civilizations. If you read the Quran you will find Mohammad's god told him and his followers to kill a lot of people. Heck even Buddhist and Hindus would say it was karma which lead to the deaths.


----------



## Cornhusker

The funny thing is, it's never an NRA member, yet Obama and Clinton want to shut down the NRA, the one organization fighting every day to protect our Constitutional rights.
Politicians who are constantly attacking our rights should be imprisoned.


----------



## poppy

It gets more weird all the time. The Department of Homeland Security wants all our info so they can keep us safe from terrorism. It turns out Omar worked for a major DHS contractor. Apparently ISIS has infiltrated the DHS itself. Story on Drudge.


----------



## Heritagefarm

poppy said:


> That is nonsense. If a city has 1/3 of the population of its state and has a gun death rate of 20 per 100,000 while the rest of the state has 2/3 of the population and only a 2 per 100,000 gun death rate, It is plain to see how the city death rate will affect the overall death rate of the state.


yeah, I see what you were getting at now. But the fact is, the across-the-board ### / 100k is going to produce the same results for the whole country as for each other country, regardless of size. For instance, my local town has say 1000 people, and only 1 murder, but technically that's a 100 / 100k murder rate for that year.


----------



## Heritagefarm

watcher said:


> If you believe that God is in control, as most religions do, how can you not agree with it?
> 
> If you read the Bible you will find that God sent the Israelites to kill off entire civilizations. If you read the Quran you will find Mohammad's god told him and his followers to kill a lot of people. Heck even Buddhist and Hindus would say it was karma which lead to the deaths.


OK, you've about got me ready to barf. You're agreeing that killing gays is all right and that God might command it? Because if so, we've got a major problem and you REALLY might want to take a rain check from your religion. And I don't believe in your God; I only entertain the possibility for the purpose of our discussions.


----------



## watcher

wr said:


> Fifty humans dead, others in grave condition and three pages of political comments with only a few expressions concern for the dead, injured or their families speaks volumes to me and not in a good way.


To promote my standard of being the hard hearted one on the board, we could post 10,000 pages of concern for the dead, injured and their families but what good would it do? The dead would still be dead, the injured would still be injured and the families will most likely never read a single post here and if they did NOTHING anyone can write or say will take the pain from their lives.


----------



## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> The armed LEO outside the store couldn't stop him
> 
> What's *really* sad is with over 200 people in the club, they let one guy with a gun control them all


People are trained to give in to criminals and run from anything scary. Remember the three UNARMED men on the French (?) train? There are still a few who are willing to charge into the breach when necessary but clearly there were none in that nightclub.


----------



## Heritagefarm

watcher said:


> To promote my standard of being the hard hearted one on the board, we could post 10,000 pages of concern for the dead, injured and their families but what good would it do? The dead would still be dead, the injured would still be injured and the families will most likely never read a single post here and if they did NOTHING anyone can write or say will take the pain from their lives.



Eh-heh... So, instead we have a discussion going about how evil Muslims and gays are.


----------



## watcher

Shine said:


> Practically any semi-auto can be turned into a full auto weapon with just a little time, a tool or two and some know-how.


Not so much any more. Used to many could be switched to full auto with nothing more than a properly bent paper clip but now days you practically have to remachine the receiver.


----------



## Elevenpoint

Nevada said:


> I was ignoring your question because it's absurd. Waco wasn't a mass shooting incident, it was a fire.


What kind of fire?


----------



## Darren

Nevada said:


> Sad that this guy was able to get his hands on an assault rifle.


We're lucky he didn't build an improvised IED and kill everyone in the club. We've been lucky so far that most terrorists seem to be limited upstairs.


----------



## Elevenpoint

Heritagefarm said:


> Yeah, that's true. And if not, then really determined people get it off the black market.


Any gun is available within 48 hours for anyone, or less.


----------



## barnbilder

I hope we didn't pay anybody to make that chart, but sadly, we probably did. Why don't you come up with a chart that compares countries with more similar ethnic demographics as the United states and show it to us.


----------



## arabian knight

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's really not that easy unless you just want it to slam fire, which is quite dangerous. It's also highly illegal to possess an altered weapon.
> 
> There's no real advantage to full auto outside military combat


 Well that video showing a bump fire stock IS Legal without ANY type of extra paperwork or regulations or payment to do it, and does a very good job at a Semi going to pretty close to full auto and VERY ACCURATE also.


----------



## oneraddad

watcher said:


> To promote my standard of being the hard hearted one on the board, we could post 10,000 pages of concern for the dead, injured and their families but what good would it do? The dead would still be dead, the injured would still be injured and the families will most likely never read a single post here and if they did NOTHING anyone can write or say will take the pain from their lives.



What good do any of your posts do ?


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> OK, you've about got me ready to barf. You're agreeing that killing gays is all right and that God might command it? Because if so, we've got a major problem and you REALLY might want to take a rain check from your religion. And I don't believe in your God; I only entertain the possibility for the purpose of our discussions.


Wipe your mouth and read it again. If you (a general you) believe in an all powerful God who is in control of the universe then you MUST agree that EVERYTHING which happens in that universe happens because God wants it. To say otherwise it to say God is not in control. Just because you don't like how He runs the universe doesn't change a thing.

Something to think about: Do you think Ike wanted to see thousands of American, British, French, Canadian and others killed? Using your logic he must have of because it was his command which set the invasion of France into motion. After all if he were a compassionate and caring man he would have refused to send those men to their death.


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> I hope we didn't pay anybody to make that chart, but sadly, we probably did. Why don't you come up with a chart that compares countries with more similar ethnic demographics as the United states and show it to us.


Here's a much better article with all sorts of graphs. Brazil and Russia and Mexico beat us on most accounts, but we're the most. developed country with the problem.

http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/


----------



## Heritagefarm

watcher said:


> Wipe your mouth and read it again. If you (a general you) believe in an all powerful God who is in control of the universe then you MUST agree that EVERYTHING which happens in that universe happens because God wants it. To say otherwise it to say God is not in control. Just because you don't like how He runs the universe doesn't change a thing.
> 
> Something to think about: Do you think Ike wanted to see thousands of American, British, French, Canadian and others killed? Using your logic he must have of because it was his command which set the invasion of France into motion. After all if he were a compassionate and caring man he would have refused to send those men to their death.


Good LORD man! That's actually one of the reasons why I don't believe God actually exists - because if he did, he wouldn't be able to condone all the violence that exists in the world. And don't throw that Adam and Eve fairy tale at me either. It's just a way of explaining things away for people who don't have enough brain capacity to understand things like causality and laws of large numbers. It also means that every natural disaster and gun shooting and war is GODS FAULT, and would make your God nothing but a blithering, cruel deity with a penchant for meddling. Good NIGHT!


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> Eh-heh... So, instead we have a discussion going about how evil Muslims and gays are.


You are the only one I've see who have called gays evil. As for muslims if you check recent history you will find most muslims are not terrorist but most terrorist have been muslims. Its up to you to make your own threat assessment based on that.

Now ever time I get into a car I don't think the guy next to me is going to hit me but because there is a possibility I take the reasonable action of putting my seatbelt on. I have been doing this from the first time I had a car with seatbelts (A 1970 Galaxie 500).


----------



## Heritagefarm

watcher said:


> You are the only one I've see who have called gays evil. As for muslims if you check recent history you will find most muslims are not terrorist but most terrorist have been muslims. Its up to you to make your own threat assessment based on that.
> 
> Now ever time I get into a car I don't think the guy next to me is going to hit me but because there is a possibility I take the reasonable action of putting my seatbelt on. I have been doing this from the first time I had a car with seatbelts (A 1970 Galaxie 500).


And her's an article for that, too, now I really of to bed...
http://thehumanist.com/magazine/mar...olent-the-answer-isnt-as-simple-as-many-think


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> Good LORD man! That's actually one of the reasons why I don't believe God actually exists - because if he did, he wouldn't be able to condone all the violence that exists in the world. And don't throw that Adam and Eve fairy tale at me either. It's just a way of explaining things away for people who don't have enough brain capacity to understand things like causality and laws of large numbers. It also means that every natural disaster and gun shooting and war is GODS FAULT, and would make your God nothing but a blithering, cruel deity with a penchant for meddling. Good NIGHT!


Your arrogance is showing again. You think you know better than God. That's like a private thinking he knows the best way to fight the war when he has no idea of what is really going on outside his foxhole. 

Let me ask you this. How many people would you be willing to let die to save 1,000?


----------



## poppy

Heritagefarm said:


> Good LORD man! That's actually one of the reasons why I don't believe God actually exists - because if he did, he wouldn't be able to condone all the violence that exists in the world. And don't throw that Adam and Eve fairy tale at me either. It's just a way of explaining things away for people who don't have enough brain capacity to understand things like causality and laws of large numbers. It also means that every natural disaster and gun shooting and war is GODS FAULT, and would make your God nothing but a blithering, cruel deity with a penchant for meddling. Good NIGHT!


In the final analysis, God is in complete control. However, He gives man free will. I have free will whether or not to go to bed now or 3 hours from now. I also have free will whether or not to go kill someone. However, despite free will, the end of things will come on God's timetable and exactly in the manner He foretold us in His Word no matter what man does. When one studies prophecy, things are lining up perfectly.


----------



## barnbilder

Heritagefarm said:


> Here's a much better article with all sorts of graphs. Brazil and Russia and Mexico beat us on most accounts, but we're the most. developed country with the problem.
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/


And just what in the pea picking heck does developed have anything to do with anything? Is South Chicago what you would consider developed? Developed only gets you a good set of wheels, some free time away from subsistence farming, some disposable cash, and a good communications system to network with like minded individuals. If you want to see real human atrocities, ban guns in the US. We will be like Jamaica. They were setting on the beach one minute, sipping rum in an island paradise, able to own guns, low murder rate and then pow, they passed laws so strict that you have to be rich to have a gun license, and if they find one bullet on you without a permit you go to jail for life. Became a world leader in murder rates with a stroke of the pen.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> It gets more weird all the time. The Department of Homeland Security wants all our info so they can keep us safe from terrorism. It turns out Omar worked for a major DHS contractor. Apparently ISIS has infiltrated the DHS itself. Story on Drudge.


He worked for a multi-national security firm with over 50,000 employees.
I've seen no evidence he did anything related to "DHS" at all.

Don't get caught up in the hype and hysteria by blowing things out of proportion


----------



## Shine

oneraddad said:


> What good do any of your posts do ?


If you would forgive me... I find your replies to be void of any real content also... Kind of like Foghorn Leghorn posts, or along those lines...


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> You're right. Here a better article with a lot of graphs that I'm too tired to look at right now:
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/


Your source states:



> The relationship between homicide rates and the supposed measure of gun ownership provided the Small Arms Survey shows that even with their obviously biased measure of gun ownership, *more guns ownership is associated with fewer homicides*, though the relationship is not statistically significant.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> Well that video showing a bump fire stock IS Legal without ANY type of extra paperwork or regulations or payment to do it, and does a very good job at a Semi going to pretty close to full auto and VERY ACCURATE also.


It's not "accurate" and it has nothing to do with "converting to full auto"
It's just a gimmick that wastes ammo

You've never seen one other than the video, have you?


----------



## arabian knight

You want to see people having FUN with full autos? Here take a look see. Over a half a million rounds were used in the filming of this. LOL


[YOUTUBE] ?v=A0CKq0xRu2k[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> You want to see *people having FUN* with full autos? Here take a look see. Over a half a million rounds were used in the filming of this. LOL


That should be another thread
This one is about 50 people being killed


----------



## JJ Grandits

Bearfootfarm said:


> That should be another thread
> This one is about 50 people being killed


I agree. This is not a gun issue. It is a radical Islamic terrorist issue.

If Obama was President during 9-11 would he be talking about plane control?

Some whacko islamic terrorist kills 50 Americans and wounds more and our noble leader will not even mention it. It's watered down to "domestic terrorism" and somehow gun control will prevent this from happening again.

Aside from 9-11 the greatest mass killing in NY as I remember occurred when someone walked into a crowded club with a gas can and some matches. 

We need gas can control.


----------



## MichaelZ

Nevada said:


> Sad that this guy was able to get his hands on an assault rifle.


Yes, especially given the two times he was investigated due to his ties to terrorism. 

What a sad event this was for this nation. My prayers go out to the grieving families.


----------



## Tommyice

Bearfootfarm said:


> The armed LEO outside the store couldn't stop him
> 
> What's *really* sad is with over 200 people in the club, they let one guy with a gun control them all





Shrek said:


> True. Even in a gun free turkey shoot environment as a night club, there should have been enough people to throw themselves on the shooter greatly reducing the casualty count.


It was a NIGHTCLUB at 2am (last call) where alcoholic beverages are consumed and darkened lighting. Do think, perhaps, that there was some impairment of reasoning?

Seeing the news reports of people looking for their loved ones--it is just like NYC was during the aftermath of 911. Prayers for those lost and injured and their loved ones. Hold those people in your thoughts.


----------



## Farmerga

The first thing out of the mouths of the D.C. scum is "gun control". What they don't understand is that these people were not just victims of a crime, they were civilian casualties in a war that is being waged against us. This is not some far off war, in some dusty country, but a war of civilizations that is being, and will continue to be, fought amongst us. 

They(D.C. scum) wish to disarm the 10's of millions of lawful gun owners, who own AR-15 like rifles because our enemy used one on a soft target. They wish to make even more soft targets for the savages to exploit. 

This war will only escalate. The savages will pay about as much attention to gun laws as they do to laws forbidding the killing of innocence, and all our "leaders" can come up with is to disarm a major line of defense against our enemy. 

Obama, with one breath, says "We won't give in to fear" and with the next breath says oooo, scary black guns, we must take them away!! Please!! Can we stand much more ignorance?


----------



## Ozarka

Nevada said:


> I was ignoring your question because it's absurd. Waco wasn't a mass shooting incident, it was a fire.


waco was cold bloodied murder by the us government.


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> He worked for a multi-national security firm with over 50,000 employees.
> I've seen no evidence he did anything related to "DHS" at all.
> 
> Don't get caught up in the hype and hysteria by blowing things out of proportion


Let me get this straight. You don't find it troubling that an ISIS supporter was able to work for a major contractor for DHS? Unbelievable. DHS is constantly telling Congress about how they need to gather information on everyone to prevent terror attacks. Wouldn't you think they would start with their own employees and those of companies they contract with? No wonder this country is so screwed up.


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> And just what in the pea picking heck does developed have anything to do with anything? Is South Chicago what you would consider developed? Developed only gets you a good set of wheels, some free time away from subsistence farming, some disposable cash, and a good communications system to network with like minded individuals. If you want to see real human atrocities, ban guns in the US. We will be like Jamaica. They were setting on the beach one minute, sipping rum in an island paradise, able to own guns, low murder rate and then pow, they passed laws so strict that you have to be rich to have a gun license, and if they find one bullet on you without a permit you go to jail for life. Became a world leader in murder rates with a stroke of the pen.


We're a developed, ultra-rich, first world country. I'm sorry you have a problem grasping the nomenclature. I'm assuming you'll need to Google that word.


----------



## Heritagefarm

poppy said:


> In the final analysis, God is in complete control. However, He gives man free will. I have free will whether or not to go to bed now or 3 hours from now. I also have free will whether or not to go kill someone. However, despite free will, the end of things will come on God's timetable and exactly in the manner He foretold us in His Word no matter what man does. When one studies prophecy, things are lining up perfectly.


If God is in completely control, he would basically be personally responsible for most atrocities. But since we have free will, it's on us. 
So, which is it?



watcher said:


> Your arrogance is showing again. You think you know better than God. That's like a private thinking he knows the best way to fight the war when he has no idea of what is really going on outside his foxhole.
> 
> Let me ask you this. How many people would you be willing to let die to save 1,000?


I don't care what you think.


----------



## Farmerga

Shine said:


> Practically any semi-auto can be turned into a full auto weapon with just a little time, a tool or two and some know-how.


It is not that easy to turn a modern sporting rifle, fully auto. Contrary to the scare tactics of D.C. scum. Sure, if you have a $100,000 CNC machine and the right specs, you could, but, a person tinkering in his garage would have a rough time of it.


----------



## Cornhusker

Heritagefarm said:


> We're a developed, ultra-rich, first world country. I'm sorry you have a problem grasping the nomenclature. I'm assuming you'll need to Google that word.


19 trillion in debt is rich?


----------



## Cornhusker

Farmerga said:


> It is not that easy to turn a modern sporting rifle, fully auto. Contrary to the scare tactics of D.C. scum. Sure, if you have a $100,000 CNC machine and the right specs, you could, but, a person tinkering in his garage would have a rough time of it.


Exactly
With the right tools and enough money, a pressure cooker can be turned into a bomb.
Replace enough parts, a toaster can be a tank.
The anti liberty gun grabbers are spouting things like "assault rifle" to scare the ignorant and uninformed.
Why can't they see that a government disarimg it's own people is up to no good?
How many lies does this administration have to be caught in before their followers will wake up and say "Hay, something's wrong here"?


----------



## Cornhusker

The shooter's ex is say now that he was violent and abusive, was an Isis wannabe and threatened to kill gays.
Good thing they didn't profile him, he might have been offended.


----------



## joebill

Heritagefarm said:


> And her's an article for that, too, now I really of to bed...
> http://thehumanist.com/magazine/mar...olent-the-answer-isnt-as-simple-as-many-think


Easy to take the position that nothing means anything and that whatever facts emerge can be negated by other facts dreged up somewhere else. 

The most classicly evasive and dissmisive answer in the history of man is "well.....it's complicated."

OK, let's admit that it is complicated and that there are variables. One variable that seems to me to stick out like a diamond on a goat's ankle is our leader's response to islamic terrorism. Who got bulllied in the schoolyard? The wuss who tolerated it. 

Easy to blame the God you do not believe in for allowing it to happen, but God allows us free will, and men abuse it.

MEN allow it to happen. On the political front, men in the white house and elsewhere hiding behind a facade of "tolerance", and on the personal front men hiding in the bathroom and calling their mommies on their cellphones, convinced they are about to die but unwilling to put together a team of five and almost certainly end it. 

God did not assemble us like that. We have done that to ourselves with this veneer of what we want to believe is civilization, but is, in fact, cowardice and the futile belief and passionate hope that somebody else will handle our problems for us.

This is what happens to men when they start to put faith in a government that claims it can love, protect, care for them from cradle to grave. They start to believe they have no responsibility for protecting themselves. This is the outcome. 

If we so desire, God will protect our souls. Where our bodies are concerned, it's every man for himself and his friends.

The JV team is graduating to varsity, and nobody is doing much of anything. You know full well the problem is not going to solve itself, and the next administration is going to have to tackle it. I don't much like the odds for Obama 2.0 ......Joe


----------



## greg273

joebill said:


> The JV team is graduating to varsity, and *nobody is doing much of anything*. You know full well the problem is not going to solve itself, and the next administration is going to have to tackle it. I don't much like the odds for Obama 2.0 ......Joe


 How well do you follow the events in Syria/Iraq? You do know the Kurdish fighters are, as we speak, laying seige to one of ISIS's main strongholds in Syria and have vowed to raise the rainbow flag over Raqqa? Wow, imagine that MUSLIMS vowing to raise the gay pride flag over the capital of ISIS. Really blows a lot of the rightwing theories out of the water, but then again, reality has never been too kind to the rightwing idealouge.


----------



## Cornhusker

greg273 said:


> How well do you follow the events in Syria/Iraq? You do know the Kurdish fighters are, as we speak, laying seige to one of ISIS's main strongholds in Syria and have vowed to raise the rainbow flag over Raqqa? Wow, imagine that MUSLIMS vowing to raise the gay pride flag over the capital of ISIS. Really blows a lot of the rightwing theories out of the water, but then again, reality has never been too kind to the rightwing idealouge.


Why do you people always defend muslims while attacking Christians out the other side of your mouth?
The hypocrisy is astounding
Just like Obama, you (collective you) pretend to promote unity, harmony and all that when in reality, you (collective you) are all about division and spreading your own hatred and bigotry.


----------



## arabian knight

You got that right. WOW


----------



## greg273

joebill said:


> MEN allow it to happen. On the political front, men in the white house and elsewhere hiding behind a facade of "tolerance", and on the personal front men hiding in the bathroom and calling their mommies on their cellphones, convinced they are about to die but unwilling to put together a team of five and almost certainly end it.


 What utter BS. Hey John Wayne, were YOU in that nightclub?? If not, then you have NO IDEA what exactly happened.


----------



## greg273

Cornhusker said:


> Why do you people always defend muslims while attacking Christians out the other side of your mouth?
> The hypocrisy is astounding
> Just like Obama, you (collective you) pretend to promote unity, harmony and all that when in reality, you (collective you) are all about division and spreading your own hatred and bigotry.


 Someday Cornhusker, you may be able to string together a coherent, rational post, based on things someone actually wrote, rather than firing off knee-jerk reactionary drivel.


----------



## Irish Pixie

greg273 said:


> Someday Cornhusker, you may be able to string together a coherent, rational post, based on things someone actually wrote, rather than firing off knee-jerk reactionary drivel.


:bow:


----------



## Cornhusker

greg273 said:


> Someday Cornhusker, you may be able to string together a coherent, rational post, based on things someone actually wrote, rather than firing off knee-jerk reactionary drivel.


Maybe I need to type slower so you can un-der-stand
Typically, if you don't agree with it, it's drivel.


----------



## Farmerga

Nevada said:


> I don't know that it's a misnomer. The news reported that he had a handgun and an assault rifle. Maybe it was an assault rifle and maybe it wasn't, but all we have to go on right now is what the police are telling us.
> 
> _At a news conference, Chief John Mina of the Orlando Police Department said the weapons recovered from the dead suspect included a handgun and an &#8220;AR-15-type *assault rifle*,&#8221; along with additional rounds._
> http://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/assault-rifle-is-among-weapons/
> 
> I don't know for sure. I wasn't there and I haven't even seen a photo of the weapons. What makes you think it wasn't an assault rifle?
> 
> But why is this important? I think all of us wonder why this shooting was so bad. Was it the setting, pre-planning, training, or just what? Perhaps all of those factors played a part in the severity of the attack, but I think we can agree that the type of weapon was also a factor.


It was reported that he legally purchased the weapons the week prior, from a gun dealer, as you cannot just go to a gun dealer and purchase an assault rifle, it is obvious that the government/media is, yet again, lying in order to further their anti-liberty agenda and the ignorant/agenda-driven, lap it up like manna from heaven.


----------



## barnbilder

Heritagefarm said:


> We're a developed, ultra-rich, first world country. I'm sorry you have a problem grasping the nomenclature. I'm assuming you'll need to Google that word.


Well, that is incredibly insulting. Let me rephrase, what does being an ultra rich, first-world country have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that rich people don't kill anyone? Have you actually been to an inner city, or to a poor southern town with boarded up factories? Not exactly brimming in luxury, in fact, not much different than a third world country.


----------



## barnbilder

Cornhusker said:


> Why do you people always defend muslims while attacking Christians out the other side of your mouth?
> The hypocrisy is astounding
> Just like Obama, you (collective you) pretend to promote unity, harmony and all that when in reality, you (collective you) are all about division and spreading your own hatred and bigotry.



The rainbow is much more powerful when viewed from the other side of the prism of divisiveness. That radical muslim extremist didn't kill gay people, he killed Americans. That is what is important here. Making this about gun control or about gay rights or about promoting atheism just continues to drive in the divisive wedge that progressives need to remain in control.


----------



## cfuhrer

greg273 said:


> How well do you follow the events in Syria/Iraq? You do know the Kurdish fighters are, as we speak, laying seige to one of ISIS's main strongholds in Syria and have vowed to raise the rainbow flag over Raqqa? Wow, imagine that MUSLIMS vowing to raise the gay pride flag over the capital of ISIS. Really blows a lot of the rightwing theories out of the water, but then again, reality has never been too kind to the rightwing idealouge.



I would be more impressed if it were Syrians and Iraquis. It's well know the Kurds would eat a pulled pork sandwich on main street at noon if it ticked of ISIS.


----------



## joebill

greg273 said:


> What utter BS. Hey John Wayne, were YOU in that nightclub?? If not, then you have NO IDEA what exactly happened.


Actually, the mother was reading the texts on TV this morning. Unless she was making them up, her son painted a pretty complete picture of what HE was doing.

pre-liberal government, the folks in the club would have strung him up....Joe


----------



## Raeven

I am so sad over this senseless loss of life. I have LBGT friends, one of whom moved here from the Orlando area. He is devastated by this horrific event. To be loathed based solely on oneâs sexual orientationâ¦ itâs simply beyond my comprehension. 

The families of all the victims are going to need help going forward. My thoughts and immediate concerns are with them. There will be medical expenses not covered by insurance, the need for full time caregivers for some, prosthetics and many other costs. Many of the victims are young and likely ill prepared for the expenses they face. I urge anyone who can spare a few dollars to contact this website: https://www.gofundme.com/PulseVictimsFund

This gofundme page is sponsored by Equality Florida, who has pledged to give 100% of the proceeds to the victims. They have been given a gold star (highest) rating by Guidestar.

http://time.com/money/4365694/orlando-pulse-nightclub-shooting-how-to-help/

I hope some will honor the memories of the dead and assist their survivors in a meaningful way. Please help if you can.


----------



## arabian knight




----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't care what you think.


Fine but seeing as how you seem to think you know better than God I just wanted to know how many people your greatness would be willing to kill or let die to save 1,000 others.

Do you use a simple math system where as long as the number of live people is greater than the number of dead its OK, e.g. you'd allow 999 people to die to save 1,000 because you come up with a net gain of 1 life.

Or is there some equation known only to you where you take into account your view of the worth of the people. IOW, would you let 1,000 dullards die rather than kill one mensa member.

Or does you system just depend on how you are feeling at the time?

There are some people out there who must think about such things. Anyone who faces the possibility of being involved in a mass casualty incident has had to. Same thing for military commanders.


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> If God is in completely control, he would basically be personally responsible for most atrocities. But since we have free will, it's on us.
> So, which is it?


Both. If you raise livestock you are, or can be, in complete control of what it eats. You can pen it in and force it to eat only what you give it or you can let it have some freedom in a pasture and eat what's out there.


----------



## joebill

No doubt there will be stories of heroism, people trying to save one another from the terrorist who did this, and I salute them.

It would have had a better outcome with a few Todd Beamers on hand, though. Along with selflessness, we need to promote a bunch of old fashioned agression into our citizens or we will be sitting ducks over the coming years.....Joe


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tommyice said:


> It was a NIGHTCLUB at 2am (last call) where alcoholic beverages are consumed and darkened lighting. Do think, perhaps, that there was some* impairment of reasoning?*
> 
> Seeing the news reports of people looking for their loved ones--it is just like NYC was during the aftermath of 911. Prayers for those lost and injured and their loved ones. Hold those people in your thoughts.


Alcohol should have made them more brave.

If enough people had simply mobbed him at the start, there would have been very few casualties

One guy even talked about listening to the gunman fumble around when his gun jammed.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Let me get this straight. You don't find it troubling that an ISIS supporter was able to work for *a major contractor for DHS*? Unbelievable. DHS is constantly telling Congress about how they need to gather information on everyone to prevent terror attacks. Wouldn't you think they would start with their own employees and those of companies they contract with? No wonder this country is so screwed up.


There you go with the hype again.

Just because the same company does some DHS contracts doesn't mean this man had anything to do with working for DHS.

He was investigated more than once and they found *no evidence* of any "terrorist" ties.

Unless you are in favor of people being punished based solely on "suspicion" then you should stop and *think* about what it is you're wishing for.

BO wants the same thing you're asking for


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> The shooter's ex is say now that *he was violent and abusive*, was an Isis wannabe and threatened to kill gays.
> Good thing they didn't profile him, he might have been offended.


She keeps *saying* that, but it's obvious she never reported it before, since if he had been convicted of "domestic violence" he wouldn't have been able to purchase the guns legally.


----------



## Nevada

joebill said:


> It would have had a better outcome with a few Todd Beamers on hand, though.


Maybe. But it also might have had a better outcome of he had to reload more often because this clip size was limited.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> Maybe. But it also might have had a better outcome of he had to reload more often because this clip size was limited.


Fire? Really?

Criminals dont care about the law, so i doubt he was worried about the size of the clips.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Nevada said:


> Maybe. But it also might have had a better outcome of he had to reload more often because this clip size was limited.


So you think adding another *minute * over the entire three hours would have made a big difference?

Let's keep it realistic


----------



## Farmerga

Nevada said:


> Maybe. But it also might have had a better outcome of he had to reload more often because this clip size was limited.


In three hours, it he could have shot those people using a single shot breach loader.


----------



## Nevada

JeffreyD said:


> Criminals dont care about the law, so i doubt he was worried about the size of the clips.


It does, of course, make a difference in availability. For example, he tried to buy military grade body armor before the incident, but couldn't get it. He went to the incident without body armor. The point is, these people are going to commit terror acts with what's available.

If larger clips aren't readily available then they're going to use smaller clips.


----------



## Farmerga

Nevada said:


> It does, of course, make a difference in availability. For example, he tried to buy military grade body armor before the incident, but couldn't get it. He went to the incident without body armor. The point is, these people are going to commit terror acts with what's available.
> 
> *If larger clips aren't readily available then they're going to use smaller clips*


 And smaller magazines would have made no difference. If he was as trained as the reports say, they wouldn't even have slowed him down. 

I don't know why he couldn't find body armor, it is available and legal to purchase. Perhaps the company he tried to buy from was out of stock.


----------



## Nevada

Farmerga said:


> I don't know why he couldn't find body armor, it is available and legal to purchase. Perhaps the company he tried to buy from was out of stock.


He found it, but the store refused to sell it to him.

_He attempted to buy military-grade body armor from a local store in recent weeks, according to a U.S. official. Personnel at the store refused to sell him what is known as Level III body armor, which offers more protection than the body armor police typically issue to officers._
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Nevada said:


> It does, of course, make a difference in availability. For example, *he tried to buy military grade body armor before the incident, but couldn't get it.* He went to the incident without body armor. The point is, these people are going to commit terror acts with what's available.
> 
> If larger clips aren't readily available then they're going to use smaller clips.


He didn't try too hard if he "couldn't get it".
Tossing out buzzwords like "military grade" just shows you're following a script

He could have blocked the doors and set off a couple of incendiary bombs and killed more people in less time


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Nevada said:


> He found it, but the store refused to sell it to him.
> 
> _He attempted to buy military-grade body armor from a local store in recent weeks, according to a U.S. official. Personnel at the store refused to sell him what is known as Level III body armor, which offers * more protection than the body armor police typically issue to officers*._
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html


Don't fall for the media hype

Level III often just means they insert a metal or ceramic plate into a pocket behind the standard Kevlar vest

It's not "typically issued" to LEO's because it's heavy and uncomfortable, and seldom needed in police work.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=level...ttps=1&redig=C889A0E1E03B4C4AA7720E331DEC1D4F

He could have easily ordered it online:
http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iii-body-armor.html


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> Well, that is incredibly insulting. Let me rephrase, what does being an ultra rich, first-world country have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that rich people don't kill anyone? Have you actually been to an inner city, or to a poor southern town with boarded up factories? Not exactly brimming in luxury, in fact, not much different than a third world country.


Poverty tends to create more crime. Basic social science there... So poor countries tend to have more crime while richer countries tend to have less. 

But when it comes to homicides, we have a lot more than our European peers.

We're also an outlier with religion. Generally, the richer the country, the less religious. We're WAY more religious than our developed peers. 

So clearly, religion causes more crime. 



watcher said:


> Fine but seeing as how you seem to think you know better than God I just wanted to know how many people your greatness would be willing to kill or let die to save 1,000 others.
> 
> Do you use a simple math system where as long as the number of live people is greater than the number of dead its OK, e.g. you'd allow 999 people to die to save 1,000 because you come up with a net gain of 1 life.
> 
> Or is there some equation known only to you where you take into account your view of the worth of the people. IOW, would you let 1,000 dullards die rather than kill one mensa member.
> 
> Or does you system just depend on how you are feeling at the time?
> 
> There are some people out there who must think about such things. Anyone who faces the possibility of being involved in a mass casualty incident has had to. Same thing for military commanders.


Hahaha, that's precious! According to your logic, anyone not Christian falls under that blanket statement. Muslims, jews, Buddhists, Hindus, all think they know better than "your" God. Your religion is nothing more than a way to explain away all the absurdities and inexplicable things that happen, when it reality, with a universe as complex as ours, weird stuff happens! 

And I'm not so insecure I have to believe some extraterrestrial deity is coming to save me from myself eventually. Guess who I've got to blame for everyone - ME! I can't blame the Devil like you can (The Devil Made Me Sin), I have to take personal responsibility for all my actions. Gee whiz, what an idea!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> We're WAY more religious than our developed peers.


I don't believe that at all.
Many *claim* to be "religious" but certainly don't act as if they are.

It's a lot like the ones who claim they have "left HT" but still show up every day.
There are some of them reading this right now.
It must be a slow day over at CC


----------



## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't believe that at all.
> Many *claim* to be "religious" but certainly don't act as if they are.
> 
> It's a lot like the ones who claim they have "left HT" but still show up every day.
> There are some of them reading this right now.
> It must be a slow day over at CC


Well, at the very least we have more people filling out the paperwork that way here in the US.  I would guess the Europeans are more honest.

There are other metrics as well, though, such as "how often do you go to church," and "how important is religion" blahblahblah.


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't believe that at all.
> Many *claim* to be "religious" but certainly don't act as if they are.
> 
> *It's a lot like the ones who claim they have "left HT" but still show up every day.*
> There are some of them reading this right now.
> It must be a slow day over at CC



Is that any different that someone who posted here as a conservative and got banned for it slinking back at the first opportunity and posting as a liberal?


----------



## barnbilder

Heritagefarm said:


> Poverty tends to create more crime. Basic social science there... So poor countries tend to have more crime while richer countries tend to have less.
> 
> But when it comes to homicides, we have a lot more than our European peers.
> 
> We're also an outlier with religion. Generally, the richer the country, the less religious. We're WAY more religious than our developed peers.
> 
> So clearly, religion causes more crime.
> 
> 
> 
> !


So because we are a rich nation we have no poor people?

What is the murder rate in the Vatican city? Lots of religion there. Of course, it is a tourist destination so there is always a lot of theft when you have tourists. So, tourists cause theft?

When you have lots of diverse religions, that's when you see high murder rates. Europe? Find me a European country with a 12% black population and a 18% Hispanic population living together and show me the murder rate figures. Basic human nature, us against them. I'm sure with the way world events are playing out, you won't be clinging to those wonderful European statistics for very long. How many people died in Orlando? How many died in Paris?

Study Jamaica's history of gun control and murder rates. It will tell you all you need to know.

People throwing around magazine capacity don't have a clue what they are talking about. The longer you make that spring, the more probability of a jam. l would find it hard to believe that you couldn't do more damage with 9 -10 round magazines than with 3-30 rounders, based on range experience. They would certainly handle better. 
No doubt, in a soft target environment such as this one, with no one to equipped to mount a defense to an active shooter, a 12 gauge with buckshot, like any hunter has had laying around since the early 1900s, could mount massive casualties. How many of the wounded would be dead if these shooters used high penetration hunting rounds that have been common for a hundred years? Most common hunting loads wouldn't make hiding in the bathroom a safe option, will go through cinder block like it wasn't there. Lucky for them that the most common gun ammo combination at this time is relatively anemic, as far as firearm options go. The common ARs are a little more effective as medium range guns, there are much better choices for massive casualties at close range, some of which don't involve a firearm of any kind.


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> So because we are a rich nation we have no poor people?
> 
> What is the murder rate in the Vatican city? Lots of religion there. Of course, it is a tourist destination so there is always a lot of theft when you have tourists. So, tourists cause theft?
> 
> When you have lots of diverse religions, that's when you see high murder rates. Europe? Find me a European country with a 12% black population and a 18% Hispanic population living together and show me the murder rate figures. Basic human nature, us against them. I'm sure with the way world events are playing out, you won't be clinging to those wonderful European statistics for very long. How many people died in Orlando? How many died in Paris?
> 
> Study Jamaica's history of gun control and murder rates. It will tell you all you need to know.


You've thrown around so many different ethnicities, numbers, countries and stats that it makes no sense. Where's the correlation? What's you point, as usual? Are you saying religion does indeed cause violence? Intolerant people living in close proximity causes violence.


----------



## barnbilder

Heritagefarm said:


> You've thrown around so many different ethnicities, numbers, countries and stats that it makes no sense. Where's the correlation? What's you point, as usual? Are you saying religion does indeed cause violence? Intolerant people living in close proximity causes violence.


Compare murder rates in the Gaza strip to an Amish community. Amish are probably more devout. Gaza strip has Jews and Muslims. Put more than one religion together, and you will have more killing, especially if one of those religions is the religion of peace.

Do you know of a European country that has a 12% Black population and a 16% Hispanic population, both of which are largely impoverished and involved in gang activity? If you don't, then no European country can be used as a benchmark for what the US murder rate would be, if we allowed liberals to transform it into a socialist utopia governed by erudites that can't see the powderkeg that is brewing in Europe right now.

Your wildest dreams in gun laws have already failed in Jamaica.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> *Is that any different* that someone who posted here as a conservative and got banned for it slinking back at the first opportunity and posting as a liberal?


Yes, it's completely different

I never said I was leaving because of the way the site had "changed".
I never went on other sites and talked about how terrible things are here, and how I'd never return

I got banned because Angie didn't like the things I said, not because they were any different than what others said. 

I came back when it was decided by others it would be allowed.

There was no "slinking" involved, and I had nothing to do with the events that lead up to the mass exodus, since I was gone for nearly a year and a half.

That all falls on your crew


----------



## dixiegal62

Tragic and senseless. I can't imagine the terror they had to endure or the pain of the families waiting for news of their loved ones. Praying for the families.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> Well, at the very least we have more people filling out the paperwork that way here in the US.  I would guess the Europeans are more honest.
> 
> There are other metrics as well, though, such as "how often do you go to church," and "how important is religion" blahblahblah.


People will lie when filling out "paperwork" that asks about religion because often they don't want to admit the truth, or be considered a "heathen".

It's easier to just check the most "popular" choice than have to listen to those who want to convert you or have them gossip about you behind your back.


----------



## barnbilder

dixiegal62 said:


> Tragic and senseless. I can't imagine the terror they had to endure or the pain of the families waiting for news of their loved ones. Praying for the families.


I heard that it was rather hard on the police working the crime scene, they couldn't move the bodies until they were finished. There was a constant din of cellphones notifying and ringing, on the other end of each one was someone that had experienced loss.


----------



## Nevada

Heritagefarm said:


> Poverty tends to create more crime. Basic social science there... So poor countries tend to have more crime while richer countries tend to have less.
> 
> But when it comes to homicides, we have a lot more than our European peers.
> 
> We're also an outlier with religion. Generally, the richer the country, the less religious. We're WAY more religious than our developed peers.


While poverty, religion, and a lot of other things are factors in our mass killings, I believe that the notoriety that a mass killer garners is also a factor in this country. News coverage makes people feel important, if not for fame then at least for infamy. I don't know how to make people not want fame.


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> Compare murder rates in the Gaza strip to an Amish community. Amish are probably more devout. Gaza strip has Jews and Muslims. Put more than one religion together, and you will have more killing, especially if one of those religions is the religion of peace.
> 
> Do you know of a European country that has a 12% Black population and a 16% Hispanic population, both of which are largely impoverished and involved in gang activity? If you don't, then no European country can be used as a benchmark for what the US murder rate would be, if we allowed liberals to transform it into a socialist utopia governed by erudites that can't see the powderkeg that is brewing in Europe right now.
> 
> Your wildest dreams in gun laws have already failed in Jamaica.


Nowhere have I advocated total gun bans. That's absurd. But some common-sense measures would be great - background checks, banning people with mental health issues from obtaining a gun, and a mental health screening.

Now, what you're also doing is being racist and saying that blacks and hispanics drastically raise our crime rate, while whites are supreme, peaceful beings. Not gonna bite that one.:whistlin:


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> Nowhere have I advocated total gun bans. That's absurd. But some *common-sense measures *would be great - background checks, banning people with mental health issues from obtaining a gun, and a mental health screening.
> 
> Now, what you're also doing is being racist and saying that blacks and hispanics drastically raise our crime rate, while whites are supreme, peaceful beings. Not gonna bite that one.:whistlin:


You're parroting mindless phrases while showing your ignorance of current laws.

Mateen passed the background checks, and had no documented history of "mental illness".


----------



## Declan

Some retweeted a link in twitter to some gay site that is saying that the shooter was a prior patron of the club and had been using a gay dating app. Don't know if it is true or not. They are saying he himself was bi/gay.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> You're parroting mindless phrases while showing your ignorance of current laws.
> 
> Mateen passed the background checks, and had no documented history of "mental illness".


You're supposed to follow your liberal mantra. Hush now, you're out of line.


----------



## barnbilder

So you are saying having rival gangs that not only compete for drug sale revenues, but have a general disdain for each other because of racial animosity DOESN'T factor in to crime rates. Factor in some impoverished southern whites, and some unemployed coal miners, and you have a demographic that is not present in any of the European countries you like to blather about. Are you actually calling me a racist for mentioning that racial animosity factors into crime schematics?

Here is a common sense gun measure for you. Since the murder rate is actually down, and the only thing that seems to be spawning outrage on the left is MASS shootings, they all have one thing in common. Lets get rid of this stupid social experiment with gun free zones.


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> So you are saying having rival gangs that not only compete for drug sale revenues, but have a general disdain for each other because of racial animosity DOESN'T factor in to crime rates. Factor in some impoverished southern whites, and some unemployed coal miners, and you have a demographic that is not present in any of the European countries you like to blather about. Are you actually calling me a racist for mentioning that racial animosity factors into crime schematics?
> 
> Here is a common sense gun measure for you. Since the murder rate is actually down, and the only thing that seems to be spawning outrage on the left is MASS shootings, they all have one thing in common. Lets get rid of this stupid social experiment with gun free zones.


The only point you're coming up with is that we have more crime than them, and for various reasons. And for whatever reasons, they DO NOT have as much crime as us. There are a lot of reasons for this, but explaining it away doesn't make it go away.


----------



## haypoint

When the US Government discussed a ban on rifle clips, 20 or so years ago, demand heated up and tens of thousands of banana clips and drum clips arrived from around the world, mostly China. There's no "need" for them. But they are here now. Any law banning them will heat up the Black Market and criminals will still have them. Calling that rifle an "assault weapon" is either silly or misleading. A common hunting/sport rifle .223 , semi automatic with a clip and a fore stock handle isn't any deadlier than any other semi-automatic rifle.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noy5f-y0uhY[/ame]

Omar might not have been able to buy body armor, but no amount of laws will keep someone like him from obtaining a semi-automatic rifle and a long clip.


----------



## MO_cows

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't believe that at all.
> Many *claim* to be "religious" but certainly don't act as if they are.
> 
> It's a lot like the ones who claim they have "left HT" but still show up every day.
> There are some of them reading this right now.
> It must be a slow day over at CC


It must be an even slower day at your place to keep track of such things.


----------



## arabian knight

And those that duck hunt sure knows the government can and WILL limit the amount one can have loaded and ready to shoot.


----------



## MO_cows

haypoint said:


> When the US Government discussed a ban on rifle clips, 20 or so years ago, demand heated up and tens of thousands of banana clips and drum clips arrived from around the world, mostly China. There's no "need" for them. But they are here now. Any law banning them will heat up the Black Market and criminals will still have them. Calling that rifle an "assault weapon" is either silly or misleading. A common hunting/sport rifle .223 , semi automatic with a clip and a fore stock handle isn't any deadlier than any other semi-automatic rifle.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noy5f-y0uhY
> 
> Omar might not have been able to buy body armor, but no amount of laws will keep someone like him from obtaining a semi-automatic rifle and a long clip.


Any speculation about more gun laws sets off a buying binge of guns and ammo "while you can still get it". It's the one bright spot in the economy but the media doesn't talk about it.


----------



## barnbilder

Interesting you should mention the Chinese high capacity mags. Being like anything else made in China, they leave a lot to be desired. Fill them with ammo and leave them laying around any length of time, and they CAN become, in effect, a really long and cumbersome 10 round mag. About the only thing they are good for is range fun. I did use one as an ammo container, kept shells from rattling around and shaking out of the box and into the floor of the farm truck. Whenever I needed to top off a smaller mag, I just stripped a few out, as needed for groundhogs, crows, etc. 

The super scary round that is used in the AR-15, is illegal to even use in a lot of states. On deer anyway, because it is too weak. Hit them in the ribs and you are OK, hit one in the shoulder and it might not penetrate to the vitals. Using full metal jacket will get you more penetration, but little expansion, so there isn't enough of a hole to kill quickly. I was always under the impression that one of the big factors in the military adaptation of the .223 (5.56 NATO), in addition to it's lighter weight, was the fact that it is less lethal. On the battlefield, a less lethal round can be advantageous. A lethal hit removes one enemy, a non lethal hit can remove three. Depends on your enemy, some of the more recent engagements have been with people not as concerned with picking up a stretcher for their buddies, the .50 BMG has seen a little more use. So, for all the people that think the AR-15, varmint control staple of the modern American farmer, is scary, it's really not that scary compared to what people could be using. The problem wasn't the gun in Orlando. The problem had a little to do with the extremist with a gun. The biggest problem was the 100 people without guns.


----------



## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> There you go with the hype again.
> 
> Just because the same company does some DHS contracts doesn't mean this man had anything to do with working for DHS.
> 
> He was investigated more than once and they found *no evidence* of any "terrorist" ties.
> 
> Unless you are in favor of people being punished based solely on "suspicion" then you should stop and *think* about what it is you're wishing for.
> 
> BO wants the same thing you're asking for


The fact he was investigated at least TWICE and was cleared then went on to attack the club, to me, says the FBI's investigation system needs to be MAJORILY reviewed. 

What'd they do go "Sir are you a terrorist" and when he said "No." they left?


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> Maybe. But it also might have had a better outcome of he had to reload more often because this clip size was limited.


Seeing as how everyone just hid under the tables while he was reloading what difference would it make if he had to reload 5 times or 10?


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> It does, of course, make a difference in availability. For example, he tried to buy military grade body armor before the incident, but couldn't get it. He went to the incident without body armor. The point is, these people are going to commit terror acts with what's available.
> 
> If larger clips aren't readily available then they're going to use smaller clips.


I don't know where he looked but its not hard to buy body armor with metal and/or ceramic plates which will stop any round the police would have fired at him. But in this case body armor would probably have been counter productive. Its bulk would have slowed him down and w/o training deteriorated his ability to aim.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> He found it, but the store refused to sell it to him.
> 
> _He attempted to buy military-grade body armor from a local store in recent weeks, according to a U.S. official. Personnel at the store refused to sell him what is known as Level III body armor, which offers more protection than the body armor police typically issue to officers._
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html


Didn't the guy have a computer and credit card? A quick google search will show that you can order it online and have it delivered next day.


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> Nowhere have I advocated total gun bans. That's absurd. But some common-sense measures would be great - background checks, banning people with mental health issues from obtaining a gun, and a mental health screening.
> 
> Now, what you're also doing is being racist and saying that blacks and hispanics drastically raise our crime rate, while whites are supreme, peaceful beings. Not gonna bite that one.:whistlin:


Are you willing to have those same standards applied to all your other rights? Heck the left screams when you suggest we should required a photo ID to vote.


----------



## barnbilder

watcher said:


> Are you willing to have those same standards applied to all your other rights? Heck the left screams when you suggest we should required a photo ID to vote.


If they did mental health screening at the polls, this could be the first election in US history that nobody won.


----------



## Nevada

barnbilder said:


> The problem had a little to do with the extremist with a gun.


Seriously?


----------



## susieneddy

Declan said:


> Some retweeted a link in twitter to some gay site that is saying that the shooter was a prior patron of the club and had been using a gay dating app. Don't know if it is true or not. They are saying he himself was bi/gay.


well this was reported

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html


----------



## susieneddy

barnbilder said:


> If they did mental health screening at the polls, this could be the first election in US history that nobody won.


I hate to say I agree with this 

check out Jill Stein running for the Green Party


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> You're supposed to follow *your liberal mantra.* Hush now, you're out of line.


More mindless parroting 
It seems to be all you have left


----------



## haypoint

This is a more complex problem than a Muslim with an attitude against gays. Radical Islamists have moved to the head of the pack for mass murders. Plenty of action from the crazy kids from the suburbs. Not really news when some cracker shoots up the trailer park or a Black kid shoots up the gas station.

When you find yourself in a hole, the best advice is to stop digging. When Muslim immigration is up 500% and Muslim extremists appear out of nowhere, its time to stop what we are doing and rethink this.

I think I liked immigration better when immigrants were screened and wanted to adopt the prevailing way of life in the US.


----------



## barnbilder

Statue of liberty said something about giving us your tired huddled masses, not your spare militant jihadis.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

MO_cows said:


> It must be an even slower day at your place to keep track of such things.


There's no "keeping track" involved.

The names of everyone viewing a page here are listed at the bottom, and the other website is there for anyone to read

It doesn't require any special effort to see what happens


----------



## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> The fact he was investigated at least TWICE and was cleared then went on to attack the club, to me, says the FBI's investigation system needs to be MAJORILY reviewed.
> 
> What'd they do go "Sir are you a terrorist" and when he said "No." they left?


They investigated him more than 2 years ago and found no evidence of any *crimes*.

It's ridiculous to think they could predict his actions


----------



## FarmerKat

watcher said:


> The fact he was investigated at least TWICE and was cleared then went on to attack the club, to me, says the FBI's investigation system needs to be MAJORILY reviewed.
> 
> What'd they do go "Sir are you a terrorist" and when he said "No." they left?


Kind of like when they investigated the woman of the terrorist couple from San Bernandino for her fiance visa ... because there were clear indications that she was a radical before she came to live in the US. If I remember correctly, it came out that during the background check for immigrants, they are not allowed to check their social media postings.


----------



## Txsteader

watcher said:


> Are you willing to have those same standards applied to all your other rights? Heck the left screams when you suggest we should required a photo ID to vote.


Now, there's a compromise:

Background checks for gun purchases if the left is willing to agree on photo ID to vote.

:thumb:


----------



## haypoint

barnbilder said:


> Statue of liberty said something about giving us your tired huddled masses, not your spare militant jihadis.


Islam has been at war with Christianity since its inception a couple dozen centuries ago.
Their attacks on US ships and enslavement of our citizens is the reason the US formed a Navy and our first battles as a new country were against radical Islamic terrorists on the shores of Tripoli. 
The US does have a sign that says, in part, "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning to breath free. The retched refuse of your teaming shore....." But we never had open immigration. We send many back home. We didn't accept Brown people for a time, we refused Jews and we always kept it to a limited amount.

There have been times in human history that Islam ruled most of the world. "We" brought down the Ottoman Empire. Doubt Muslims ever got over that.

The US operates the World's most powerful military. Foolish for a country ruled by Muslims to declare ware on us. They spend $10,000 on flight training and 12 tickets and kill thousands, destroy billions and cause us to cripple our economy with worthless airport and border security.

They buy a pair of pressure cookers and some gun powder for a couple hundred and cause mass deaths and more worthless heightened security.

They can spend a dime and cost us millions all day long. We are falling for it. It is a tactic that they can win at.

What is the solution for many people after this Gay nightclub shooting? Lock up US citizens that speak out against Gays, Blacks, Jews? Restrict legal gun sales even further? Why not put everyone in our own jail cell so we'll all be safe?


----------



## Farmerga

Nevada said:


> He found it, but the store refused to sell it to him.
> 
> _He attempted to buy military-grade body armor from a local store in recent weeks, according to a U.S. official. Personnel at the store refused to sell him what is known as Level III body armor, which offers more protection than the body armor police typically issue to officers._
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html


I heard this morning that the store, where he asked to purchase, didn't carry the armor. Again, it is available, onine, and if he had it, it is likely that fewer would have died.


----------



## Farmerga

In the vast majority of gun purchases, including for the ones that this savage bought, background checks are performed. The people who advocate for banning those on the "terror watch list" from purchasing firearms are forgetting (or not) one very important thing. Those people have not been convicted of a crime. There is no due process and, therefore, their constitutional rights cannot be infringed upon. 

Can you imagine the slippery slope that will be created if we allow rights to be taken away just because you are on some government watch list? How long will it be before, because some white dude, with a love of history, reads Mein Kampf, and is placed on some watch list, is unable to exercise his Constitutional rights.

In this era of government "letting no crisis go to waste" we must be ever watchful. In a moment of grief, we could, very well, give away our most important rights and leave ourselves open to tyranny and oppression from within and from outside the U.S..


----------



## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> More mindless parroting
> It seems to be all you have left


At least it's not my bogus operandi. You'll reply to anything just about.


----------



## Heritagefarm

haypoint said:


> This is a more complex problem than a Muslim with an attitude against gays. Radical Islamists have moved to the head of the pack for mass murders. Plenty of action from the crazy kids from the suburbs. Not really news when some cracker shoots up the trailer park or a Black kid shoots up the gas station.
> 
> When you find yourself in a hole, the best advice is to stop digging. When Muslim immigration is up 500% and Muslim extremists appear out of nowhere, its time to stop what we are doing and rethink this.
> 
> I think I liked immigration better when immigrants were screened and wanted to adopt the prevailing way of life in the US.


Not sure where your graph is from, but I call bull. It's only showing part of the equation. Granted the graph for younger people looks similar:

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/soci.../2015/12/15-guns-race-different-worlds-reeves


----------



## Heritagefarm

SOmething the NRA doesn't want you to know - the Autralia has had great results with curbing their gun control.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG



> Australia on Thursday marked the 20th anniversary of a mass shooting which led to strict gun controls that have in turn led to a huge decline in gun murders, undermining claims in the United States that such curbs are not the answer.
> 
> The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed.
> 
> In 1996, Australia had 311 murders, of which 98 were with guns. In 2014, with the population up from about 18 million to 23 million, Australia had 238 murders, of which 35 were with guns.
> 
> It was the April 28, 1996, shooting deaths by a lone gunman of 35 people in and around a cafe at a historic former prison colony in Tasmania that prompted the government to buy back or confiscate a million firearms and make it harder to buy new ones.
> 
> The country has had no mass shootings since.


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> SOmething the NRA doesn't want you to know - the Autralia has had great results with curbing their gun control.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG


Well, the U.S. is doing much better than Australia. I can think of NO cases of anyone being murdered by a gun here. I don't know what kind of autonomous guns they had running around the outback, but, the ones here must have a person in its control. 

It would seem that these numbers are not statistically significant. a reduction from just over 300 to just under 300 in a population of 20+/- million is not that big of a difference. It would seem that there is something else going on as the numbers of murders, pre and post ban, are very low.


----------



## TripleD

Heritagefarm said:


> SOmething the NRA doesn't want you to know - the Autralia has had great results with curbing their gun control.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG


Yeah. Some say Cain killed Abel without a gun too. Murder can be done with many things......


----------



## Heritagefarm

Here's some more bubbles to burst:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/u...ent-world.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0



> The mass shooting in Orlando on Sunday was appalling in scale: 49 killed in a single attack. But it&#8217;s not unusual for dozens of Americans to be killed by guns in a single day.
> 
> Gun homicides are a common cause of death in the United States, killing about as many people as car crashes (not counting van, truck, motorcycle or bus accidents). Some cases command our attention more than others, of course. Counting mass shootings that make headlines and the thousands of Americans murdered one or a few at a time, gunshot homicides totaled 8,124 in 2014, according to the F.B.I.
> 
> This level of violence makes the United States an extreme outlier when measured against the experience of other advanced countries.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Farmerga said:


> Well, the U.S. is doing much better than Australia. I can think of NO cases of anyone being murdered by a gun here. I don't know what kind of autonomous guns they had running around the outback, but, the ones here must have a person in its control.
> 
> It would seem that these numbers are not statistically significant. a reduction from just over 300 to just under 300 in a population of 20+/- million is not that big of a difference. It would seem that there is something else going on as the numbers of murders, pre and post ban, are very low.


Read the number again. AU's total rate is only 0.15 per 100k. It's all about percentages.


----------



## no really

I'll be honest here I don't give a dang about Australia's gun control practices. Different country, different demographic and the largest factor IMHO it's an island. Try living on the Mexican border, than tell me and many others that we don't need protection. 

These comparisons are IMO mental masturbation.


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> Read the number again. AU's total rate is only 0.15 per 100k. It's all about percentages.


That is what I am saying, there wasn't a statistically significant number of murders PRE-BAN. The low numbers have much more to do with low population and cultural differences than any government gun ban.


----------



## Darren

Nevada said:


> Maybe. But it also might have had a better outcome of he had to reload more often because this clip size was limited.


AR type rifles do not use clips. 

Ignorance is common thank God.

The man could have stopped at a Walmart and shopped the chemical aisle (yes that's what Walmart associates call one of the aisles). There he could have found the necessary items to kill every one in the club. 

Mass killing is easier when you're not ignorant. 9/11 could have been much worse if the conspirators had picked a different time of the year and different targets.

We're lucky most terrorists consider firearms as their go to weapon of choice.


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> Here's some more bubbles to burst:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/u...ent-world.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0


As there are estimated to be ~250million cars in the U.S. and ~270 million guns, but, counting ALL auto accidents, there are many more deaths from auto accidents than guns. Perhaps we should stop supporting the Auto manufactures and end the rivers of blood that they are responsible for.

Also, suicides account for ~60% of deaths by gun fire each year, in the U.S.. So, death by car is even more egregious. Don't listen to the UAW and other shills of the Auto industry, we must buy back and confiscate automobiles NOW!! it is for the Children!!


----------



## greg273

TripleD said:


> Yeah. Some say Cain killed Abel without a gun too. Murder can be done with many things......


 I can guarantee you if that dude came into that nightclub armed with rocks we wouldn't be talking about 49 killed and 50+ wounded. 

Instead of just a 'homegrown terrorist', what it looks like we have is a very confused, deranged man who was hiding his own homosexuality and lashed out in a suicidal, murderous rampage. The whole 'allegiance to ISIS' thing was probably yet another cover for the fact he had homosexual feelings. Sure, he was Muslim, which made his orientation even more problematic. 
Amazing that some people still think homosexuality is a 'lifestyle choice' and that people can just choose who they are attracted to. Thats not how it works. You're attracted to whom you are attracted to, its not a choice.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Farmerga said:


> That is what I am saying, there wasn't a statistically significant number of murders PRE-BAN. The low numbers have much more to do with low population and cultural differences than any government gun ban.


So, you're saying we can't be compared to any other country. Why, because we're so much better than everyone? Because clearly our problems are worse and no one can come close to understanding them? Come on, give me a break. 

So what do you think the cause is? A violent, entitled, mentally ill society, class wars, racial wars, etc?


----------



## TripleD

greg273 said:


> I can guarantee you if that dude came into that nightclub armed with rocks we wouldn't be talking about 49 killed and 50+ wounded.
> 
> I can guarantee you if that guy had gone into a biker bar he wouldn't have killed 49 + 50 wounded. Different strokes for different folks I guess...........QUOTE]


----------



## greg273

Darren said:


> We're lucky most terrorists consider firearms as their go to weapon of choice.


 One look at the news from Syria/Iraq/Turkey shows this is not the case. the preferred method of ISIS for killing large numbers of people is usually by a suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest, or driving a car packed full of explosives.
Its becoming more and more clear that this Omar dude was not an 'Islamic terrorist', but a deranged homosexual who couldn't stand being that way. Its the classic self-hating behavior that usually ends in suicide, although this guy took it a step farther and lashed out at others.


----------



## Farmerga

The French Terror attack shows that, no matter the gun laws, those who want to do harm, will do harm. France as some of the strictest gun laws in the "free" world, yet, over 100 people were killed by terrorists using guns. 

If reductions in the number of mass shootings were really the goal, the reduction in the number of "gun free zones" should be advocated for. This club was a "gun free zone". The San-Bernardino terror attack was inside a "gun free zone". Sandy Hook was a "gun free zone". The vast majority of mass shootings occur in "gun free zones". Letting the bartenders carry inside the club may have greatly reduced the number of casualties. There is a reason why you don't hear of mass shootings at gun ranges, hunting camps, and NRA meetings.


----------



## greg273

TripleD said:


> greg273 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can guarantee you if that dude came into that nightclub armed with rocks we wouldn't be talking about 49 killed and 50+ wounded.
> 
> I can guarantee you if that guy had gone into a biker bar he wouldn't have killed 49 + 50 wounded. Different strokes for different folks I guess...........QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, he probably would have only killed 10 or 15 people.
Click to expand...


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> So, you're saying we can't be compared to any other country. Why, because we're so much better than everyone? Because clearly our problems are worse and no one can come close to understanding them? Come on, give me a break.
> 
> So what do you think the cause is? A violent, entitled, mentally ill society, class wars, racial wars, etc?


I am saying that the number of murders, in Australia, pre and post ban, are not significantly different. 

I know what the cause isn't, guns. No more than pens are the cause of misspelled words, or, forks are the cause of obesity.


----------



## Farmerga

greg273 said:


> One look at the news from Syria/Iraq/Turkey shows this is not the case. the preferred method of ISIS for killing large numbers of people is usually by a suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest, or driving a car packed full of explosives.
> Its becoming more and more clear that this Omar dude was not an 'Islamic terrorist', but a deranged homosexual who couldn't stand being that way. Its the classic self-hating behavior that usually ends in suicide, although this guy took it a step farther and lashed out at others.


It sounds like this is just the type of unstable individual that is ripe for ISIS indoctrination.


----------



## FarmerKat

greg273 said:


> I can guarantee you if that dude came into that nightclub armed with rocks we wouldn't be talking about 49 killed and 50+ wounded.
> 
> Instead of just a 'homegrown terrorist', what it looks like we have is a very confused, deranged man who was hiding his own homosexuality and lashed out in a suicidal, murderous rampage. The whole 'allegiance to ISIS' thing was probably yet another cover for the fact he had homosexual feelings. Sure, he was Muslim, which made his orientation even more problematic.
> Amazing that some people still think homosexuality is a 'lifestyle choice' and that people can just choose who they are attracted to. Thats not how it works. You're attracted to whom you are attracted to, its not a choice.


You are forgetting that ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack and celebrated him as their hero. Surely they would not be doing that if he was gay (considering what ISIS does to gays).


----------



## no really

greg273 said:


> One look at the news from Syria/Iraq/Turkey shows this is not the case. the preferred method of ISIS for killing large numbers of people is usually by a suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest, or driving a car packed full of explosives.
> Its becoming more and more clear that this Omar dude was not an 'Islamic terrorist', but a deranged homosexual who couldn't stand being that way. Its the classic self-hating behavior that usually ends in suicide, although this guy took it a step farther and lashed out at others.


The reason that bombs are the effective choice in those areas is some idiot decides to open fire on a group there will be a large amount of return fire. :teehee:


----------



## greg273

FarmerKat said:


> You are forgetting that ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack and celebrated him as their hero. Surely they would not be doing that if he was gay (considering what ISIS does to gays).


 They did that AFTER the incident, BEFORE all this new info came out. ISIS was basically just trying to claim credit without knowing the facts.


----------



## no really

Some do have the need to interpret actions that they can't understand or mentally deal with into something that they can comfortably. The government does it for political issues.


----------



## MO_cows

greg273 said:


> I can guarantee you if that dude came into that nightclub armed with rocks we wouldn't be talking about 49 killed and 50+ wounded.
> 
> Instead of just a 'homegrown terrorist', what it looks like we have is a very confused, deranged man who was hiding his own homosexuality and lashed out in a suicidal, murderous rampage. The whole 'allegiance to ISIS' thing was probably yet another cover for the fact he had homosexual feelings. Sure, he was Muslim, which made his orientation even more problematic.
> Amazing that some people still think homosexuality is a 'lifestyle choice' and that people can just choose who they are attracted to. Thats not how it works. You're attracted to whom you are attracted to, its not a choice.


You are far too sympathetic. If he was gay and couldn't come to grips with it he could have blown his own brains out and been over it. Attacking the club like he did was just evil.


----------



## Darren

MO_cows said:


> You are far too sympathetic. If he was gay and couldn't come to grips with it he could have blown his own brains out and been over it. Attacking the club like he did was just evil.


You have to wonder why he chose to kill people in a club frequented by gays. The man had been there before and had a "gay" app on his phone. He was also scoping out Disneyland. 

It was reported he was laughing as he shot people. Is that something terrorists normally do? Laugh?

Since he had married and had a child does that make him bisexual instead of gay? There are quite a few aspects to the incident.


----------



## no really

Darren said:


> You have to wonder why he chose to kill people in a club frequented by gays. The man had been there before and had a "gay" app on his phone. He was also scoping out Disneyland.
> 
> It was reported he was laughing as he shot people. Is that something terrorists normally do? Laugh?
> 
> Since he had married and had a child does that make him bisexual instead of gay? There are quite a few aspects to the incident.


He also walked around and methodically shot the ones that were down. There are aspects coming out slowly and some that the public will probably not know ever.


----------



## greg273

MO_cows said:


> You are far too sympathetic. If he was gay and couldn't come to grips with it he could have blown his own brains out and been over it. Attacking the club like he did was just evil.


 Hmm, lets see, he was known to frequent gay clubs, had a profile on a gay dating site, and yet was an outspoken critic of the 'lifestyle'... apart from the murderous suicidal rampage, he sounds like many other 'outed' religious leaders and GOP congressmen throughout recent years who preached against homosexuals yet were secretly one themselves. 
Obviously he was mentally unstable, being gay probably didn't help, or perhaps the conflict between his upbringing and his orientation caused the mental problems. Either way, yes, I agree killing scores of people is indeed evil, no matter what the cause.


----------



## Nevada

Darren said:


> AR type rifles do not use clips.
> 
> Ignorance is common thank God.


I know that it's properly called a magazine. But I don't see how that helps the situation. Actually, I always thought the term "banana clip" was more descriptive than magazine or banana magazine. Everyone knows what you're talking about when you say "banana clip."

_A large capacity magazine for Automatic weapons, Named after "banana clip" because it's shape resembles a banana_ 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=banana%20clip


----------



## M5farm

I ideology of Muslims is their belief they can atone for their sins by works. I can speculate he thought by killing the gays he could be forgiven for his sin of being gay. That does align with their teachings of being a martyr.


----------



## no really

Give the spin doctors time it will all be the fault of white Christian males.


----------



## FarmerKat

Darren said:


> You have to wonder why he chose to kill people in a club frequented by gays. The man had been there before and had a "gay" app on his phone. He was also scoping out Disneyland.


The gay days at Disney World just ended (they were during 1st week of June). Maybe he was considering that as a target.


----------



## Nevada

FarmerKat said:


> The gay days at Disney World just ended (they were during 1st week of June). Maybe he was considering that as a target.


Maybe he was considering attending.


----------



## FarmerKat

Nevada said:


> Maybe he was considering attending.


That is possible too. I have read that Disney World is combing through their surveillance videos to see if he was in the park.


----------



## barnbilder

How come if this guy is not representative of all muslims, he is representative of all gun owners?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> At least it's not my bogus operandi. *You'll reply* to anything just about.


Isn't that the purpose of a "forum"?
You constantly reply to me don't you?

It's your choice to read my posts, so if you do don't whine about it.


----------



## Nevada

barnbilder said:


> How come if this guy is not representative of all muslims, he is representative of all gun owners?


Did someone say he's representative of all gun owners?


----------



## keenataz

Nevada said:


> Did someone say he's representative of all gun owners?


No I'm willing to concede most gun owners aren't mass murderers. And I am sure all here will concede most Muslims aren't mass murderers.


----------



## Farmerga

But when a Muslim is a mass murder, one of the first knee jerk reactions from the Political class is to ban firearms, not, the Muslim religion. As both are "protected" by the Constitution, what is the difference? 

You have freedom of Religion except for religions X, Y, and Z would be the same as saying your rights to bear arms is not infringed except that you can't have X, Y, and Z type firearms.


----------



## barnbilder

I'm not sure that looking at Australia's data could be indicative of how successful gun control would be in the US. Australia was on a downward trend and had been for some time, ever since they quit sport hunting for their minorities. Their minorities are also prone to congregate in remote areas, rather than flock to cities and adapt to modern civilization. With a very low tolerance for alcohol, they are effectively being wiped out by alcoholism as we speak.

Looking at the big picture, there are some tradeoffs in OZ, crime is still very present, with sexual assault on the rise, according to some sources. Their crime rates actually had an increase following their gun ban, they built up their police force heavily in response to this, no doubt to ensure the impression of success of their gun program.

The most telling thing of anyone that brings up Australia, is their true intent of massive civilian disarmament, AKA gun confiscation, which is what happened in Australia. I would hope that many would view that as an unconstitutional act if attempted here, many LEOs have indicated that this is their stance.


----------



## keenataz

Farmerga said:


> But when a Muslim is a mass murder, one of the first knee jerk reactions from the Political class is to ban firearms, not, the Muslim religion. As both are "protected" by the Constitution, what is the difference?
> 
> You have freedom of Religion except for religions X, Y, and Z would be the same as saying your rights to bear arms is not infringed except that you can't have X, Y, and Z type firearms.


Not living in US I will not comment on your gun laws. But a point I make after each of these mass shootings, you cannot blame one single element. Each case is complicated. If it was simple we would be able to stop them.


----------



## joebill

One thing that should be aparent to anybody and everyone is that every culture is different. In Japan, you can't even own a sword, and I'm pretty sure nobody minds, for the most part. Japan seems to have cured itself of war in one easy lesson.

Radical Islam has been getting it's own folks killed for longer than guns have existed and they seen to relish it, although they really don't seem to get as many applicants for the "suicide bomber positions" as they would like. 

When I was making knives, I sold a LOT of knives and shipped them to the UK, so they have not lost interest in self defense by a long shot, just switching tactics.

Gun confiscation in the US is a special problem, in that most folks believe, and I agree, that such an act on a federal basis would be the signal that we would have arrived at the point in time when our government was prepared to go to war with it's citizens and become a dictatorship. After all, that is what the second ammendment is about, resisting tyranny. Gun confiscation is the first step to tyranny and has been for over a century.

It can be presented as something for public safety or any one of a hundred different excuses, but even if it were about something else, nobody much is going to believe it, and most of us were taught two things growing up;

1.Someday, you may have to die for your faith. You will only be the most recent amongst millions

2. Someday, you may have to fight and perhaps die for your liberty. Once again, you will be in good and honorable company. 

None of us want to see that.......ever. Not only for the obvious reasons, but I honestly doubt we would ever again be blessed with the kind of singleminded and honorable leaders we had the first time. Another civil war would bring out every kook and little tin god in the nation, trying to take over, and you can throw in Islam trying to set up a theocracy along with it. Communications are too good on both sides, weapons ditto. I could go on and on, but unless I am completely unhinged, I'm pretty sure it would turn the continent into something nobody with a brain even wants to think about. 

Wholesale gun confiscation in the US is really not an option. Just something folks like to dydream about if they don't like guns and armed citizens.

Best option;
Don't like guns? Don't own one. Also, you can move where folks share your dislike....Joe


----------



## Farmerga

D.C. scum is not interested in protecting anyone other than themselves. They know that gun control will do NOTHING to curb terrorism, or, save lives. They are interested in CONTROL. 

I remember a citizen, of this once great nation, schooling Dick Durbin on what the 2nd amendment was really for. It was not created for hunting, or, even home protection. It was created to keep wanna be tyrants (like Durbin) at bay. I remember Mr. Durbin was HORIFIED to think that people would consider raising arms against their government under any circumstances. Like it, or, not, that is the reason for the 2nd amendment. It is meant to keep the power in its rightful place, with The People. We must not allow these evil people, in D.C., to use this and other evil acts to remove power from our hands.


----------



## Nevada

*Some feller named Omar*

When I saw the title of this thread I first thought of the Omar bread man, who delivered bread to our home back in the 1950s. I never considered that there was anything sinister about that name before this thread.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Nevada said:


> Did someone say he's representative of all gun owners?


BO wants to place restrictions on all gun owners due to the actions of one individual, while at the same time saying his actions can't be justification for restrictions on all Muslims

He's being a hypocrite again


----------



## M5farm

If only the same logic would apply to this situation as it did in the SC church shooting. The aftermath of that has caused practically everyone calling for the banning of the confederate battle flag. That flag caused him to shoot up that church. What should we attribute the cause of what this demon did?????????


----------



## itsb

Farmerga said:


> D.C. scum is not interested in protecting anyone other than themselves. They know that gun control will do NOTHING to curb terrorism, or, save lives. They are interested in CONTROL.
> 
> I remember a citizen, of this once great nation, schooling Dick Durbin on what the 2nd amendment was really for. It was not created for hunting, or, even home protection. It was created to keep wanna be tyrants (like Durbin) at bay. I remember Mr. Durbin was HORIFIED to think that people would consider raising arms against their government under any circumstances. Like it, or, not, that is the reason for the 2nd amendment. It is meant to keep the power in its rightful place, with The People. We must not allow these evil people, in D.C., to use this and other evil acts to remove power from our hands.


So VERY true----well put !


----------



## Nevada

Farmerga said:


> I remember a citizen, of this once great nation, schooling Dick Durbin on what the 2nd amendment was really for. It was not created for hunting, or, even home protection. It was created to keep wanna be tyrants (like Durbin) at bay.


----------



## Nevada

M5farm said:


> If only the same logic would apply to this situation as it did in the SC church shooting. The aftermath of that has caused practically everyone calling for the banning of the confederate battle flag. That flag caused him to shoot up that church. What should we attribute the cause of what this demon did?????????


The right blames Islam, of course.


----------



## M5farm

nevada said:


> the right blames islam, of course.


because its to blame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tricky Grama

Nevada said:


> His father said that the shooter was disturbed with public displays of gay affection during a recent visit to Miami. The father seems to have a very good idea about what was going on.


And the father thinks he's the Pres of Afghanistan. And is a known al queada sympathizer.


----------



## Tricky Grama

FarmerKat said:


> I pray for those who are injured and that they pull through. I pray for those who lost their loved ones. I have been in tears all morning. Even it I personally do not know anyone affected, it hits home, I have lived in Orlando for many years, DH grew up not far from the scene of the terror attack, I used to take my kids to doctors in the hospital that is treating the injured .... some of those doctors are probably there helping the victims today.
> 
> But I also pray that we finally wake up and see this for what it is and that if we do not act that people will be dying in attacks like this on a daily basis in the near future. Just like the terrorists in Europe, this guy is a second generation immigrant. Raised here in the US. Parents probably don't appear to be radicals yet they raised their son to become one. Did they come here to simply look for better life or did they come here with this purpose? What will happen in 20-25 years when the next generation is raised by the millions of Muslim migrants flooding western countries?
> 
> And, yes this is political on many levels ... our country's leadership will have to choose sides now - will they support the LGBT community in this event or will they do all they can to cover up the fact that this is an islamist terror attack? It sucks when the reality does not match the agenda. I am sure they are disappointed it was a not a white Christian terrorist.


Post of the century award.


----------



## Tricky Grama

CurtisWilliams said:


> So Poppy, who should we blame? I have an insane idea. Lets blame the person pulling the trigger instead of a figure head a thousand miles away!!!
> 
> While I have MANY problems and issues with Obama's policies, he did not pull the trigger. His policies are incapable of pulling the trigger. Policies are ideas, and have NO corporeal substance.
> 
> This act was performed by an inhumane being, and was not sanctioned my our mis-administration.
> 
> This person acted on his free volition with fatal consequenses. How can ANYONE else be held accountable?
> 
> In your own words "THINK A BIT"!!! Even a little bit. Please.


If the FBI were not constrained by this guy in the WH, perhaps this could've been stopped. However, when FBI is not allowed to say: "sharia law" or "Jihad" among other things when questioning, there's a connection here. 
Most definitely this admin is responsible for attacks.


----------



## po boy

Nevada said:


> The right blames Islam, of course.


Show me!!!


----------



## Tricky Grama

Raeven said:


> I am so sad over this senseless loss of life. I have LBGT friends, one of whom moved here from the Orlando area. He is devastated by this horrific event. To be loathed based solely on oneâs sexual orientationâ¦ itâs simply beyond my comprehension.
> 
> The families of all the victims are going to need help going forward. My thoughts and immediate concerns are with them. There will be medical expenses not covered by insurance, the need for full time caregivers for some, prosthetics and many other costs. Many of the victims are young and likely ill prepared for the expenses they face. I urge anyone who can spare a few dollars to contact this website: https://www.gofundme.com/PulseVictimsFund
> 
> This gofundme page is sponsored by Equality Florida, who has pledged to give 100% of the proceeds to the victims. They have been given a gold star (highest) rating by Guidestar.
> 
> http://time.com/money/4365694/orlando-pulse-nightclub-shooting-how-to-help/
> 
> I hope some will honor the memories of the dead and assist their survivors in a meaningful way. Please help if you can.


I heard the $$$am't gofundme was collecting, more in that given period than any other cause. Lots of caring folks in our country.
The folks giving blood were turned away there b/c there were so many, but not here. I have O neg & in demand, went & gave. 
Did you?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> If the FBI were not constrained by this guy in the WH, perhaps this could've been stopped. However, when FBI is not allowed to say: "sharia law" or "Jihad" among other things when questioning, there's a connection here.
> Most definitely this admin is responsible for attacks.


The FBI said there was no hard evidence Mateen had any connection to any terrorists. 

If you keep asking for them to have more power, don't whine when they turn it on you


----------



## Tricky Grama

Declan said:


> Some retweeted a link in twitter to some gay site that is saying that the shooter was a prior patron of the club and had been using a gay dating app. Don't know if it is true or not. They are saying he himself was bi/gay.


His wife said he had "homosexual tendencies". A guy who went to some sort of training/school w/him said he was gay.


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> If the FBI were not constrained by this guy in the WH, perhaps this could've been stopped. However, when FBI is not allowed to say: "sharia law" or "Jihad" among other things when questioning, there's a connection here.
> Most definitely this admin is responsible for attacks.


 When was the last time you've been questioned by the FBI? How do you know they're not allowed to say those things? The only thing I could find was a bunch of links to the anti-Muslim kook Pam Gellar and her hate-site.


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> The FBI said there was no hard evidence Mateen had any connection to any terrorists.
> 
> If you keep asking for them to have more power, don't whine when they turn it on you


He was interviewed twice by the FBI and the results were "inconclusive". He was on the no fly or terror watch list until being removed in 2014. Then he went to Saudi Arabia twice. I would think that should ring some bells somewhere. Of course now the FBI is going to spin things to cover their arses. From what his former acquaintances and wife say, he has always been a loose cannon. Somehow, he fell through the cracks in the FBI system.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> I can guarantee you if that dude came into that nightclub armed with rocks we wouldn't be talking about 49 killed and 50+ wounded.
> 
> Instead of just a 'homegrown terrorist', what it looks like we have is a very confused, deranged man who was hiding his own homosexuality and lashed out in a suicidal, murderous rampage. The whole 'allegiance to ISIS' thing was probably yet another cover for the fact he had homosexual feelings. Sure, he was Muslim, which made his orientation even more problematic.
> Amazing that some people still think homosexuality is a 'lifestyle choice' and that people can just choose who they are attracted to. Thats not how it works. You're attracted to whom you are attracted to, its not a choice.


So what was it, his 'gayness' that made him dance when Sept 11th happened while others in his school were mourning? 
What caused him to frighten his co-workers daily w/rants against black people, gays, women? 
What caused him to befriend the suicide bomber-only known American who blew himself up in Syria? 
What caused him to state to coworkers, wife, that he wanted to be a martyr for ISIS?
What was it that compelled him to go to mosques that encourage jihad?


----------



## Nevada

po boy said:


> Show me!!!


Sure.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqd8RgcDLw0[/ame]


----------



## arabian knight

Be the best thing to happen to this country. It HAS been done before it sure as heck Can and SHOULD be done NOW till we get things straightened the heck uno once and for all.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Nevada said:


> The right blames Islam, of course.


Evidently you have not heard Dr Azudi Jassen (prolly have the spelling wrong) former Navy Lt Commander speak out against Islam. The THEOCRATIC Islamists want to KILL ALL OF US. There are enuf muslims in countries like Jordan, there's the Kurds, etc, who will assist in wiping ISIS from the face of the earth, & we must do it. Congress should've declared war on ISIS yesterday.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Bearfootfarm said:


> The FBI said there was no hard evidence Mateen had any connection to any terrorists.
> 
> If you keep asking for them to have more power, don't whine when they turn it on you


So, what's the point in "see something, say something"??? Many did & look at the carnage.
The FBI has their hands tied when looking for Jihadists. 
I have nothing to fear, never been one nor communicated w/any.


----------



## greg273

Farmerga said:


> I remember Mr. Durbin was HORIFIED to think that people would consider raising arms against their government under any circumstances. Like it, or, not, that is the reason for the 2nd amendment. It is meant to keep the power in its rightful place, with The People..


 The purpose of the second amendment is NOT to overthrow the government, its purpse is clearly stated, that is, to provide SECURITY against insurrection, invasion, and to enforce the laws of the state. The Framers were no anarchists, quite the opposite. THe last line of defense against tyrants may be a by-product of having a well armed populace, but the STATED reasons differ from your overly simplistic and one-sided view.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> When was the last time you've been questioned by the FBI? How do you know they're not allowed to say those things? The only thing I could find was a bunch of links to the anti-Muslim kook Pam Gellar and her hate-site.


B/c I listened to several ex-FBI say it was true. As well as ex-Secs of Defense.
So what you got?


----------



## greg273

Nevada said:


> Sure.


 Trump gets dumber by the day, and his lame-brained ideas appeal to some of the most ignorant citizens in America. But of course we all know how trump 'loves the poorly educated'.


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> B/c I listened to several ex-FBI say it was true. As well as ex-Secs of Defense.


 Thats all you got?? You 'heard' it somewhere? lmao! ANd what does the Sec. of Defense have to do with the FBI??


----------



## Shine

greg273 said:


> The purpose of the second amendment is NOT to overthrow the government, its purpse is clearly stated, that is, to provide SECURITY against insurrection, invasion, and to enforce the laws of the state. The Framers were no anarchists, quite the opposite. THe last line of defense against tyrants may be a by-product of having a well armed populace, but the STATED reasons differ from your overly simplistic and one-sided view.


The Federalist Papers #46

James Madison

"Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. 

Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. "


----------



## haypoint

This country has never had the open borders and influx of "refugees" like we have absorbed this past decade. For example, during and following WWII, we refused Jews. We have always screened for disease.
20% of the recent Syrian refugees to Minnesota are infected with tuberculosis. It costs $100,000 per patient to treat tuberculosis. If you want to allow such humanitarian efforts, donate the health care costs of just one patient. If you won't give $100,000, why should you expect me, as a tax payer, to cover the costs?

The current rate of immigration is unsustainable. If we are to preserve this country with a reasonable immigration rate, who do we restrict? Build a wall and stop Middle East non-Christians isn't such a bad place to start. 

When Blacks are killed by Whites, national news. When Blacks are killed by Blacks, no one raises an eye brow. When a white kid kills a white kid, not news. When a Mexican cuts up another Mexican, ho hum. Within your ethnic community and no one seems to mind.
With that in mind, the LGBTQIA Community thought some radical Homophobe had declared Jihad, it was a tragic hate crime. But is it different now that other facts come out? Isn't this a crime within the LGBTQIA Community? Is it a bigger deal than if a Black dude shot up a Black Gentleman's club or a Skinhead shot up an Arian Brotherhood clubhouse or a Mexican drug leader shoots up a rival drug dealership?
As a member of the SHM Community, it isn't newsworthy when a member of my community shoots up the trailer park of others in that same community.


----------



## poppy

haypoint said:


> This country has never had the open borders and influx of "refugees" like we have absorbed this past decade. For example, during and following WWII, we refused Jews. We have always screened for disease.
> 20% of the recent Syrian refugees to Minnesota are infected with tuberculosis. It costs $100,000 per patient to treat tuberculosis. If you want to allow such humanitarian efforts, donate the health care costs of just one patient. If you won't give $100,000, why should you expect me, as a tax payer, to cover the costs?
> 
> The current rate of immigration is unsustainable. If we are to preserve this country with a reasonable immigration rate, who do we restrict? Build a wall and stop Middle East non-Christians isn't such a bad place to start.
> 
> When Blacks are killed by Whites, national news. When Blacks are killed by Blacks, no one raises an eye brow. When a white kid kills a white kid, not news. When a Mexican cuts up another Mexican, ho hum. Within your ethnic community and no one seems to mind.
> With that in mind, the LGBTQIA Community thought some radical Homophobe had declared Jihad, it was a tragic hate crime. But is it different now that other facts come out? Isn't this a crime within the LGBTQIA Community? Is it a bigger deal than if a Black dude shot up a Black Gentleman's club or a Skinhead shot up an Arian Brotherhood clubhouse or a Mexican drug leader shoots up a rival drug dealership?
> As a member of the SHM Community, it isn't newsworthy when a member of my community shoots up the trailer park of others in that same community.



Some on the left seem to have no objection to letting everyone into the country that wants to come. It is their view that the more on the backs of taxpayers the better and there is no end to the freebies. It's high time we let Muslims clean up their own mess in the ME or live under dictators. Don't drag their filth over here for us to deal with. We should be like many countries and not allow immigrants in unless they have a means of support, a job waiting, a special skill, can be thoroughly vetted, and are certified to be free of disease.


----------



## Nevada

haypoint said:


> The current rate of immigration is unsustainable.


We need a certain amount of immigration just to get by. Immigrants, be it documented or undocumented, are both consumers & taxpayers. We always need more consumers & taxpayers.


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> We need a certain amount of immigration just to get by. Immigrants, be it documented or undocumented, are both consumers & taxpayers. We always need more consumers & taxpayers.


More of the current ones are consumers rather than taxpayers. Many are never going to be taxpayers because that is counter to their culture. They are used to living off oil money distributed by the government. Having consumers living off taxpayers is not an economic plus. It is a drag on the economy.


----------



## Nevada

poppy said:


> More of the current ones are consumers rather than taxpayers. Many are never going to be taxpayers because that is counter to their culture. They are used to living off oil money distributed by the government. Having consumers living off taxpayers is not an economic plus. It is a drag on the economy.


My observation of immigrants, particularly Mexican immigrants, is that they're a pretty hard working bunch.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> He was interviewed twice by the FBI and the results were "inconclusive". He was on the no fly or terror watch list *until being removed* in 2014. Then he *went to Saudi Arabia *twice.
> 
> I would think that should ring some bells somewhere. Of course now the FBI is going to spin things to cover their arses. From what his former acquaintances and wife say, he has always been a loose cannon.
> 
> Somehow, he fell through the cracks in the FBI system.


One more time, the FBI found *no hard evidence of any crimes* or "terrorist" connections.
That's not "inconclusive". 

All Muslims are supposed to go to Mecca (which is in Saudi Arabia)



> The Hajj is an annual Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca, and a mandatory religious duty for Muslims that must be carried out at least once in their lifetime by all adult Muslims who are physically and financially capable of undertaking the journey, and can support their family during their absence.




Be careful about asking the Govt to discriminate arbitrarily based on religion, because yours might just be next on the list


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> So, what's the point in "see something, say something"??? Many did & look at the carnage.
> The FBI has their hands tied when looking for Jihadists.
> I have nothing to fear, never been one nor communicated w/any.


No one can be "punished" before they break the law.
Which part of that confuses you?

The fact that a lot of people are talking about him now doesn't mean they said anything then


----------



## Raeven

Tricky Grama said:


> I heard the $$$am't gofundme was collecting, more in that given period than any other cause. Lots of caring folks in our country.
> The folks giving blood were turned away there b/c there were so many, but not here. I have O neg & in demand, went & gave.
> Did you?


 Noâ¦ too soon since my last visit.

Iâm glad you did what you could, though.  It would be nice if everyone did.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Nevada said:


>


You mistakenly assume the 2nd Amendment is about "overthrowing" tyrants, when in fact it prevents them from becoming tyrants in the first place.

Your "scoreboard" proves it's effective.

Now look up the stats on crimes prevented with firearms and you'll see the lives saved top those lost (since yours would include criminals killed while committing crimes)


----------



## Raeven

Bearfootfarm said:


> Be careful about asking the Govt to discriminate arbitrarily based on religion, because yours might just be next on the list


Yes! I've already been schooled here that the appropriate term the next time some Christian nut job takes out a bunch of people, I should refer to him/her as a "radical Christian terrorist" or "radical Christian extremist."

Most helpful!


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> One more time, the FBI found *no hard evidence of any crimes* or "terrorist" connections.
> That's not "inconclusive".
> 
> All Muslims are supposed to go to Mecca (which is in Saudi Arabia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be careful about asking the Govt to discriminate arbitrarily based on religion, because yours might just be next on the list


Government already discriminates based on religion and other things. How many Christian Arab refugees have we let in? I seem to have heard something about the IRS discriminating against conservative groups but I haven'r heard of anyone going to jail.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> *Government already discriminates* based on religion and other things. How many Christian Arab refugees have we let in? I seem to have heard something about the IRS discriminating against conservative groups but I haven'r heard of anyone going to jail.


Is there supposed to be a point in there?
Are you saying you think that behavior is acceptable?


----------



## Elevenpoint

Raeven said:


> Yes! I've already been schooled here that the appropriate term the next time some Christian nut job takes out a bunch of people, I should refer to him/her as a "radical Christian terrorist" or "radical Christian extremist."
> 
> Most helpful!


 But for now, we'll stick to what just happened.


----------



## Raeven

elevenpoint said:


> But for now, we'll stick to what just happened.


Mouse in your pocket?

You feel free to talk about whatever you like, and I'll do the same. 

Besides, I *am* sticking to what just happened. The right insists we liberals just can't fight terrorism -- which you also insist is the cause of this tragic, murderous event -- unless we employ the appropriate terms, "radical Islamic terrorism," or "radical Islamic extremism." I'm just pointing out where that must naturally lead.


----------



## MO_cows

Nevada said:


> My observation of immigrants, particularly Mexican immigrants, is that they're a pretty hard working bunch.


That stereotype doesn't hold up any better than the others. Friend of mine manages a restaurant, usually a few Mexicans in the kitchen. Suspected illegal but they present documents that pass. Although once they did find 2 guys using the same social security number. Try calling one of these guys in when somebody doesn't show up. To earn overtime. They won't come in. Somebody in management has to supervise taking out the trash because meat was going out the back door by the case. And on payday, don't give them their check until quitting time. They take a lunch break to go cash it but don't come back.


----------



## Elevenpoint

Raeven said:


> Mouse in your pocket?
> 
> You feel free to talk about whatever you like, and I'll do the same.
> 
> Besides, I *am* sticking to what just happened. The right insists we liberals just can't fight terrorism -- which you also insist is the cause of this tragic, murderous event -- unless we employ the appropriate terms, "radical Islamic terrorism," or "radical Islamic extremism." I'm just pointing out where that must naturally lead.


Not sure, one of the first tweets I saw was a muslin woman claiming it was a white Christian that did it. Nope.


----------



## Raeven

elevenpoint said:


> Not sure, one of the first tweets I saw was a muslin woman claiming it was a white Christian that did it. Nope.


Oh, I could have told you that.  You can't trust women made of cloth.


----------



## Heritagefarm

The truth is that Muslims are frequently as fundie and conservative as die-hard born-again Christians would like to be. I'd have as many problems getting along with a Muslim who thinks women submission is fine as a Christian who thinks women are just breeding machines. A lot of them may say otherwise, but from their actions it's clear that how they're viewed.


----------



## Nevada

Heritagefarm said:


> The truth is that Muslims are frequently as fundie and conservative as die-hard born-again Christians would like to be.


Of the Muslims I've known, they've been pretty strong social conservatives. But not necessarily fiscal conservatives.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Nevada said:


> Of the Muslims I've known, they've been pretty strong social conservatives. But not necessarily fiscal conservatives.


I tend to consider my ethics conservative, I'm socially liberal, fiscally moderate. I generally call myself a moderate, but since ISideWith says I agree with Bernie Sanders 95%, I'm not sure I can honestly say that.


----------



## barnbilder

I have had several muslims out to the farm. At one time, I sold quite a few lambs off the farm. One guy, I always tried to get him to take a pig, too. Always spent more time haggling over price than it was really worth, but sometimes broadening cultural awareness is worth something.

Some of the things I respect about them. There appear to be no animal rights nuts in muslim culture. (Always a good idea to give them a knife that has been properly sharpened if they slaughter on site, make sure and make it disappear after the slaughter. it will be used as a hatchet.) They make their children help, and be respectful. Their children know where food comes from, and are involved in the process, no matter how affluent. The women were always much more skillful with a blade than the men, and the men, and women seemed to take pride in this. They have a strong desire to eat fresh, local food, they want to see an animal walk around a little before they eat it, they have a distrust for some animal that was probably near death right before going behind cellophane. If we could get past the whole blowing infidels up in the name of Ollie thing, they would be much better to have around than your average hipsters with skinny jeans and mousse in their beards.


----------



## Farmerga

Raeven said:


> Yes! I've already been schooled here that the appropriate term the next time some Christian nut job takes out a bunch of people, I should refer to him/her as a "radical Christian terrorist" or "radical Christian extremist."
> 
> Most helpful!


I am sure that you won't be alone. Everyone from Obama down to the local news crew will be using exactly those terms.


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> One more time, the FBI found *no hard evidence of any crimes* or "terrorist" connections.
> That's not "inconclusive".
> 
> All Muslims are supposed to go to Mecca (which is in Saudi Arabia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be careful about asking the Govt to discriminate arbitrarily based on religion, because yours might just be next on the list


Nonsense. No one is saying he should have been punished. He should have been under surveillance or at least monitored. The FBI has thousands of active investigations on Muslims going on in this country right now and those are their words, not mine. Those Muslims haven't done anything yet either but they are still under surveillance. As I said, Omar should have been watched too but he wasn't.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> Thats all you got?? You 'heard' it somewhere? lmao! ANd what does the Sec. of Defense have to do with the FBI??


If you listened/watched any credible news outlet you'd know these things. Of course its from FOX. The MOST trusted & watched cable news ON THE PLANET.

The Sec of D confirmed what the ex-FBI people said. 
3 ex-Secs of D have blasted this POTUS for his poor knowledge of the ISIS situation as well as how he betrayed them.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Tricky Grama said:


> If you listened/watched any credible news outlet you'd know these things. Of course its from FOX. The MOST trusted & watched cable news ON THE PLANET.


LOL! You mean the LEAST trusted pile of steaming horse manure in existence?


----------



## Tricky Grama

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one can be "punished" before they break the law.
> Which part of that confuses you?
> 
> The fact that a lot of people are talking about him now doesn't mean they said anything then


I guess you didn't read or listen to any of the news reports from the massacre. Many of the co-workers reported this savage. MANY. Some quit their job b/c of him. He was allowed to rant & disrupt, as well as frighten his co-workers w/o being fired b/c he was muslim.


----------



## Tricky Grama

poppy said:


> Nonsense. No one is saying he should have been punished. He should have been under surveillance or at least monitored. The FBI has thousands of active investigations on Muslims going on in this country right now and those are their words, not mine. Those Muslims haven't done anything yet either but they are still under surveillance. As I said, Omar should have been watched too but he wasn't.


Only way to solve this would be to declare was on ISIS. NOW. Then those that preach/rant about killing would be hauled in.


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> If you listened/watched any credible news outlet you'd know these things. Of course its from FOX. The MOST trusted & watched cable news ON THE PLANET.
> .


:hysterical:
Oh thats a good one tricky. 





> *Fox News viewers tend to be less informed about current affairs than people who obtain their news from other news sources *and are even less informed than people &#8220;who don&#8217;t watch any news at all.&#8221; That is the controversial conclusion of a new study by Bruce Bartlett, a conservative economist, Treasury Department official under President George H.W. Bush and former adviser on domestic policy to President Ronald Reagan.


 http://www.inquisitr.com/2105906/fo...mers-says-new-study-by-former-reagan-adviser/


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> Only way to solve this would be to declare was on ISIS. NOW. Then those that preach/rant about killing would be hauled in.


 Are you even aware there is an ongoing war against ISIS? FOX must really keep its viewers in the dark.


----------



## arabian knight

Tricky Grama said:


> If you listened/watched any credible news outlet you'd know these things. Of course its from FOX. The MOST trusted & watched cable news ON THE PLANET.
> 
> The Sec of D confirmed what the ex-FBI people said.
> 3 ex-Secs of D have blasted this POTUS for his poor knowledge of the ISIS situation as well as how he betrayed them.


 For sure. At any time of the day if you have Directv you can go to a chart that SHOWS the TOP RATED shows and under News. FOX is 99.99% of the time ONTOP of EVERYONE. There must be a reason why so many people watch FOX. And CNN is losing its viewership to almost zero. LOL I love it. And how many of those that were ON CNN have moved over to FOX? Many. LOL And they have over the years put more and more left sided views and people on their station as well, so they are a Well Balanced.


----------



## barnbilder

This illustrates the utter stupidity of liberals. They think, and remember here they are the undisputed champions of lumping everyone into one group, that all conservatives watch Fox news and never change the channel. Conservatives are not all crackers living in trailer parks with guns and bibles. Heck, I just came across a group of lgbt 2cnd amendment advocates, who, after Orlando, have a very good argument for legislators who wish to leave gays as defenseless targets, by enacting restrictive gun laws in places that have large gay communities. Some of the strongest women's choice arguments I've ever heard have taken place in churches. Some of the most hateful, racist, woman oppressing evangelicals I know are card carrying democrats, a throwback to when most in the party wore the long white robes at night. So everyone doesn't fit neatly into one little pigeon hole.

I know a lot of conservatives, myself included, that tune in to Nazi Propaganda Radio, regularly, if nothing else, to make fun of the spin they put on things, it's almost as entertaining as listening to Alex Jones. I bet CNN has not come close to mentioning the Texas Walmart hostage takers name, it was Mohammed, by the way. And, I didn't bring that up because I hate Muslims, I just hate acts of terror, carried out by radical muslims. Hearing the word "radical Islam" could be very reassuring, coming from the president, it would show the American people whose side he is on. From his actions, it is pretty hard to tell.


----------



## arabian knight




----------



## no really

Pick your poison one major media is just as much a steaming pile as the other, only difference is which side they support.


----------



## Nevada

But, interestingly, the Orlando shooting spree was done in the name of God. Perhaps the problem with society is too much belief in God.


----------



## Farmerga

Nevada said:


> But, interestingly, the Orlando shooting spree was done in the name of God. Perhaps the problem with society is too much belief in God.


And millions upon millions were killed, in the 20th century, by governments that denied the existence of God. No, humans are capable of being murderous animals. I don't see that changing anytime soon.


----------



## barnbilder

Whether you believe in God, or things like hope and change, you can screw things up pretty bad, if you behave stupidly.


----------



## greg273

barnbilder said:


> . I bet CNN has not come close to mentioning the Texas Walmart hostage takers name, it was Mohammed, by the way. .


 Good thing you didn't actually bet. 



> (CNN)Police in Amarillo, Texas, killed a man Tuesday during a SWAT raid after he barricaded himself in a Walmart store with hostages in what authorities described as a "workplace violence event."
> 
> *Mohammad Moghaddam*, 54, was a store employee who took the manager and another employee hostage after a confrontation regarding a dispute over a promotion, said Sonja Gross, spokeswoman for the City of Amarillo.


 http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/14/us/amarillo-walmart-armed-person/


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> FBI is not allowed to say: "sharia law" or "Jihad" among other things when questioning, there's a connection here.


 Still no links? We're just supposed to trust something you claim to have 'heard' on FOX news? Come on tricky, if this is true, lets see some PROOF. You made the claims, now back them up! 
This is the closest I could find, and it proves nothing of the sort...In fact 'jihad' is still in the title of some FBI reports. 


https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...b6eefa0-b379-11e2-bbf2-a6f9e9d79e19_blog.html


----------



## barnbilder

greg273 said:


> Still no links? We're just supposed to trust something you claim to have 'heard' on FOX news? Come on tricky, if this is true, lets see some PROOF. You made the claims, now back them up!
> This is the closest I could find, and it proves nothing of the sort...In fact 'jihad' is still in the title of some FBI reports.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...b6eefa0-b379-11e2-bbf2-a6f9e9d79e19_blog.html


I think this was brought up in an interview with a recently retired FBI agent who wrote a book titled "See Something, Say Nothing", detailing his experiences with beuracrats repressing normal investigative procedures in order to promote their agenda. I'm really not clear if they are attempting to "not make muslims mad at us" or jsut not encumber them in the hopes that their terror and destruction will finally cause enough public outcry to get guns banned. Either way, like most liberal policy, it doesn't seem to be effective.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Nonsense. *No one is saying he should have been punished.*
> He should have been under surveillance or at least monitored. The FBI has thousands of active investigations on Muslims going on in this country right now and those are their words, not mine. Those Muslims haven't done anything yet either but they are still under surveillance. As I said, Omar should have been watched too but he wasn't.


They are most *definitely* saying he should have been punished by NOT allowing him to purchase any guns. How is that not "punishment"?

Being "monitored" is the same as being punished.

People on probation or parole are "monitored" AFTER being convicted of a crime

Free people are not.

You think he should be treated differently just because of his religion, but you whine and moan about "rights" and "freedom" if anyone suggests doing the same to you


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> If you listened/watched any credible news outlet you'd know these things. Of course its from FOX. The MOST trusted & watched cable news ON THE PLANET.
> 
> The Sec of D confirmed what the ex-FBI people said.
> 3 ex-Secs of D have blasted this POTUS for his poor knowledge of the ISIS situation as well as how he betrayed them.


Repeating that you "heard it" doesn't change the fact it's still hearsay without proof.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> I guess you didn't read or listen to any of the news reports from the massacre. Many of the *co-workers reported this savage.* MANY. Some quit their job b/c of him. He was allowed to rant & disrupt, as well as frighten his co-workers w/o being fired b/c he was muslim.


"Reported" to whom?
*Complaining to your boss* isn't the same as reporting a potential crime to the police

There is *no evidence* he committed any crimes before the shooting, not matter what he may have said.


----------



## greg273

barnbilder said:


> I think this was brought up in an interview with a recently retired FBI agent who wrote a book titled "See Something, Say Nothing", detailing his experiences with beuracrats repressing normal investigative procedures in order to promote their agenda. I'm really not clear if they are attempting to "not make muslims mad at us" or jsut not encumber them in the hopes that their terror and destruction will finally cause enough public outcry to get guns banned. Either way, like most liberal policy, it doesn't seem to be effective.


 Well, you offered more info than Trickys "i saw it on FOX', but where is the proof that the FBI 'can't say jihad'?? Seems hard to believe considering they have reports with the word 'jihad' in the title.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

barnbilder said:


> I think this was brought up in an interview with a recently retired FBI agent* who wrote a book* titled "See Something, Say Nothing", detailing his experiences with beuracrats repressing normal investigative procedures in order to promote their agenda. I'm really not clear if they are attempting to "not make muslims mad at us" or jsut not encumber them in the hopes that their terror and destruction will finally cause enough public outcry to get guns banned. Either way, like most liberal policy, it doesn't seem to be effective.


So what you're really saying is some guy *trying to SELL his book *made some anti-Govt allegations

Imagine that!!


----------



## Raeven

Farmerga said:


> I am sure that you won't be alone. Everyone from Obama down to the local news crew will be using exactly those terms.


 And why *would* I be alone? This is what you and your candidate (*love* that guy, by the way!) *are insisting on*. If itâs ok to identify a comparatively small group of terrorists by the religion of a billion people, why is it not ok to identify Christians in the exact same way? 

If you are offended, then good. Youâre beginning to grasp my point. It *is* offensive to invoke the religion of millions of peace-loving practitioners when describing a segment of murderous thugs. Donât hypocritically wrap yourself in the robe of the Persecuted Christian when someone does to you what you insist on doing to others who identify with a religion different to your own. Or... are they not quite as human as you are?


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> They are most *definitely* saying he should have been punished by NOT allowing him to purchase any guns. How is that not "punishment"?
> 
> Being "monitored" is the same as being punished.
> 
> People on probation or parole are "monitored" AFTER being convicted of a crime
> 
> Free people are not.
> 
> You think he should be treated differently just because of his religion, but you whine and moan about "rights" and "freedom" if anyone suggests doing the same to you


That's absurd. Millions of people are on the do not sell list who never did anything wrong with a gun. Many felonies do not involve guns but will still get your on the list. Mental illness can also get you on that list even though you never harmed anyone. If you are deemed a threat to yourself or others or a convicted felon is all it takes. Domestic abuse can also do it. Call it punishment if you choose, but anyone who has been brought to the attention of the FBI twice should not be allowed to buy guns no matter his religion. The FBI flubbed this one up big time. He clearly was a threat and for some reason they missed it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> That's absurd. Millions of people are on the do not sell list who never did anything wrong with a gun. Many felonies do not involve guns but will still get your on the list. Mental illness can also get you on that list even though you never harmed anyone. If you are deemed a threat to yourself or others or a convicted felon is all it takes. Domestic abuse can also do it. Call it punishment if you choose, but anyone who has been brought to the attention of the FBI twice *should not be allowed to buy guns* no matter his religion. The FBI flubbed this one up big time. *He clearly was a threat* and for some reason they missed it.


All the *legal* disqualifications you listed involve due process and verdicts by courts.

You keep claiming he was 'clearly a threat" when reality is there was 
*no hard evidence *of any crimes or ill intent.

Here you are saying what your last post claimed no one had stated:


> should not be allowed to buy guns


The Govt can NOT be allowed to* arbitrarily* decide who can and cannot purchase firearms.


----------



## coolrunnin

poppy said:


> That's absurd. Millions of people are on the do not sell list who never did anything wrong with a gun. Many felonies do not involve guns but will still get your on the list. Mental illness can also get you on that list even though you never harmed anyone. If you are deemed a threat to yourself or others or a convicted felon is all it takes. Domestic abuse can also do it. Call it punishment if you choose, but anyone who has been brought to the attention of the FBI twice should not be allowed to buy guns no matter his religion. The FBI flubbed this one up big time. He clearly was a threat and for some reason they missed it.


I can't believe you want to unilaterally deny rights without due process.


----------



## barnbilder

Many of these people are under no protection of the constitution. Many could be thoroughly investigated prior to entry of this country, and denied entry. Many could be rounded up because of expired visas, investigated and deported. As it turns out, Omar and his wife tripped Disney's security radar in April, they notified the FBI and nothing happened. In effect, Disney has better security than the FBI right now. Sure, they have protection to practice their religion, if they are US citizens. This problem could be stopped before they become US citizens. If the guys father had ties to the Taliban, why was he allowed to move here? How many more home grown jihadis are growing up in a society that sickens them, to parents whose views and allegiances should have denied them entry to this country? Why do we demonize Christians? Do Christians make their wives wear full body coverings in 100 degree heat, only go to sixth grade, and need seven male witnesses to prove rape? Do Christians throw homosexuals off rooftops? If there were a Christian group that proposed that, and they gave money to a presidential nominee, that would make news. But Muslims that hold those views can finance a presidential nominee, and nothing is said.


----------



## Raeven

barnbilder said:


> Many of these people are under no protection of the constitution.


Please define "these people," and show your authority for which "many" you are talking about.



barnbilder said:


> Many could be thoroughly investigated prior to entry of this country, and denied entry.


The shooter in the Orlando massacre was born in Queens, New York. Guess this wouldn't apply to him, eh?



barnbilder said:


> Many could be rounded up because of expired visas, investigated and deported.


If they have visas, they've already been investigated and given permission to enter the country. We have a pretty good track record. You're suggesting they should continue to be investigated and deported... just because of their religion?



barnbilder said:


> As it turns out, Omar and his wife tripped Disney's security radar in April, they notified the FBI and nothing happened. In effect, Disney has better security than the FBI right now.


Source for your information, please?



barnbilder said:


> Sure, they have protection to practice their religion, if they are US citizens. This problem could be stopped before they become US citizens.


What "problem" could be stopped? The fact that they practice a religion different to yours?



barnbilder said:


> If the guys father had ties to the Taliban, why was he allowed to move here?


Dad migrated here in the 1980s. What crystal ball do you have to understand what that might mean to us in 2016? Get real.



barnbilder said:


> How many more home grown jihadis are growing up in a society that sickens them, to parents whose views and allegiances should have denied them entry to this country?


Why do you have so much trouble with the proportional nature of this? You keep trying to discuss something that has, *in fact*, happened very rarely, when compared to the hundreds of mass shootings that occur in this country. Before you try to make the comparison, in San Bernardino, the individual was most likely radicalized by his wife. A tragic mistake was made by granting her entry on a fiance visa, no question about that. But San Bernardino Guy, too, was an American-born citizen, as were the 2 Boston Marathon brothers, with all the rights that attach to that designation. No evidence that their families radicalized them. So who did, do you think?

You and others keep wanting to radicalize American adherents of Islam further by marginalizing them as citizens and by attaching a religious designation to extremism within their culture. You and others get a burr under your saddle every time anyone even *suggests* that Christianity has its share of nut jobs, too. There isn't a culture in this country that doesn't have its extremists, including Christians, and we don't do that to them or anyone else. So why do you insist on doing it to American Muslims? 



barnbilder said:


> Why do we demonize Christians?


Another unproven, overheated fantasy in the minds of certain Christian adherents. Why do you demonize Muslims? Your entire post does nothing but.



barnbilder said:


> Do Christians make their wives wear full body coverings in 100 degree heat, only go to sixth grade, and need seven male witnesses to prove rape? Do Christians throw homosexuals off rooftops?


You seem simply incapable of grasping that out of a billion Muslims who inhabit this world, the vast majority of them do not engage in *any* of these things. You can't imagine American Muslims who become doctors, lawyers, policemen, firemen, educated teachers, serve their country in active military or in any of hundreds of other significant, productive ways. In your mind, they're all garbage. How do you think they feel, every time they read or hear about views like yours? But you're not a bigot. Oh, no, not you.



barnbilder said:


> If there were a Christian group that proposed that, and they gave money to a presidential nominee, that would make news.


Of course it would make news, just as it would make news if *anyone* did it.. Such things are illegal here. But as for Christians giving money to a presidential nominee, here's a list of 100 top Christians who are very involved in politics, just to get you started:

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/newsmax-top-100-christian/2015/04/20/id/639492/



barnbilder said:


> But Muslims that hold those views can finance a presidential nominee, and nothing is said.


Authority for this statement? Which presidential nominee do you assert was financed by Muslims?


----------



## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> They investigated him more than 2 years ago and found no evidence of any *crimes*.
> 
> It's ridiculous to think they could predict his actions


Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

If it had came out this guy's actions had reached the point the FBI was called one time and he wasn't tracked closer I'd be willing to say such things happen. But it happened TWICE, there should have been more done. 

Its a fairly common LE tactic to set up a sting with people who are thought to be planning a crime but either have not committed one or there is not enough evidence to convict them. For example if they think someone is planning on killing someone they will have someone offer to put them in contact with a hit man and have an agent pose as one. I'd think the second time he was reported someone would have put him high on the list of guys we should run a sting against.


----------



## watcher

Txsteader said:


> Now, there's a compromise:
> 
> Background checks for gun purchases if the left is willing to agree on photo ID to vote.
> 
> :thumb:


Not enough. What's good for one right is good enough for all of them. 

Before each and every story is written, reported, posted, etc. I want the media types forced to jump through each and every hoop they want a gun owner to jump through before he can buy a firearm. And if they fail to do so they will face the same penalties.


----------



## watcher

Darren said:


> AR type rifles do not use clips.


I've loaded many a AR and M16/14 mags with them.


----------



## Shine

Raeven said:


> Authority for this statement? Which presidential nominee do you assert was financed by Muslims?



Recent donors include the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Australia, Germany and a Canadian government agency promoting the Keystone XL pipeline. . . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ons-foundation-raise-major-ethical-questions/


----------



## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
> 
> If it had came out this guy's actions had reached the point the FBI was called one time and he wasn't tracked closer I'd be willing to say such things happen. But it happened TWICE, *there should have been more done. *
> 
> Its a fairly common LE tactic to set up a sting with people who are thought to be planning a crime but either have not committed one or there is not enough evidence to convict them. For example if they think someone is planning on killing someone they will have someone offer to put them in contact with a hit man and have an agent pose as one. I'd think the second time he was reported someone would have put him high on the list of guys *we should run a sting against*.


So you think the Govt should set up anyone they suspect of plotting to kill someone? 

Do you listen to yourself?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

barnbilder said:


> Many of these people are under no protection of the constitution. Many could be thoroughly investigated prior to entry of this country, and denied entry. Many could be rounded up because of expired visas, investigated and deported. As it turns out, Omar and his wife tripped Disney's security radar in April, they notified the FBI and nothing happened. In effect, Disney has better security than the FBI right now. Sure, they have protection to practice their religion, if they are US citizens. This problem could be stopped before they become US citizens. If the guys father had ties to the Taliban, why was he allowed to move here? How many more home grown jihadis are growing up in a society that sickens them, to parents whose views and allegiances should have denied them entry to this country? Why do we demonize Christians? Do Christians make their wives wear full body coverings in 100 degree heat, only go to sixth grade, and need seven male witnesses to prove rape? Do Christians throw homosexuals off rooftops? If there were a Christian group that proposed that, and they gave money to a presidential nominee, that would make news. But Muslims that hold those views can finance a presidential nominee, and nothing is said.


People here illegally cannot legally buy a gun now.
You really don't seem to know the current laws too well

You should also look up the word "paragraph" and learn how to put them to use


----------



## Raeven

Shine said:


> Recent donors include the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Australia, Germany and a Canadian government agency promoting the Keystone XL pipeline. . . .
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ons-foundation-raise-major-ethical-questions/


Those are donations to the Clinton Foundation, not her campaign. And of course you noted that what you cited was an opinion piece offered solely for the opinion of the author, who is a... what... blogger? I didn't find much factual information there. Just a lot of unsupported statements.

I asked for supporting factual information about *barnbilder*'s assertion that Muslims were contributing to finance a *presidential nominee*.

Even if they were, how would you know? That's what you get when you allow dark money into presidential campaigns via SCOTUS rulings like Citizens United, and the donors don't have to disclose who they are to anyone.


----------



## barnbilder

According to Pew, 69% of American Muslims are immigrants. Most, of course, are not a problem. The problems come from Muslims that believe in Shariah. This is a set of teachings that come from three distinct places. The Quran, which is like the Old Testament of Christians, and Hadith, which are more the direct experiences and teachings of their prophet, and various Fatwa, which are like edicts directly from religious leaders. Some sects reject the hadith, much like Jews more or less reject the New Testament. Some fatwa are much more progressive. Some versions of the Hadith are translated much differently than the others, certain Hadith are not written, but passed orally, only among Muslims. The oral teachings are referred to as Sunnah. If you picked up a Quran at the bookstore and are basing your assumptions on your interpretations of it, then you are missing two thirds of the story. Traditional Shariah, based on the hadith, include things like throwing homosexuals from buildings, as performed by the prophet's own near descendant, beating women for arguing with their husband, rape accusations need 7 male witnesses, just to name a few. These form Sharia law. In Afghanistan 99% of Muslims favor Shariah law, 91% of those in Iraq, and 84% of those in Pakistan do as well. Saudi Arabia has a legal system based on Shariah law. It is no stretch to see that some of the people who immigrate from these countries would bring these beliefs with them, and teach them to their children.
True, once born here, there is nothing to prevent them from buying a gun, but we could easily prevent them from being born here, by denying entry to Muslims from areas that practice Shariah, unless they could be properly investigated. It is pretty well documented that The Clinton Foundation has taken money from Shariah practicioners, this should be a left-leaning-enough source to be credible. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...y-clinton-took-money-kings-four-countries-go/ , the question is, has she used every penny of that money benevolently, or does she have a team of campaign bundlers working around the clock to launder it through the proper channels, so that it can be used without incrimination? Seems like with the speaking fees she can command anyway, it would be a convenient time to deny their contributions, and use it as an opportunity to chastise those governments for their horrendous treatment of women.

Here is a paragraph. Just for those who like paragraphs.


----------



## barnbilder

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you think the Govt should set up anyone they suspect of plotting to kill someone?
> 
> Do you listen to yourself?



They have set up people that have done far less. Take Randy Weaver, for instance.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

barnbilder said:


> *They have* set up people that have done far less. Take Randy Weaver, for instance.


Does that make it acceptable?


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> Are you even aware there is an ongoing war against ISIS? FOX must really keep its viewers in the dark.


Only the ignorant do not know that there is NO formal declaration of war against ISIS. 
Want to tell us when the last declaration of war was?


----------



## Tricky Grama

barnbilder said:


> This illustrates the utter stupidity of liberals. They think, and remember here they are the undisputed champions of lumping everyone into one group, that all conservatives watch Fox news and never change the channel. Conservatives are not all crackers living in trailer parks with guns and bibles. Heck, I just came across a group of lgbt 2cnd amendment advocates, who, after Orlando, have a very good argument for legislators who wish to leave gays as defenseless targets, by enacting restrictive gun laws in places that have large gay communities. Some of the strongest women's choice arguments I've ever heard have taken place in churches. Some of the most hateful, racist, woman oppressing evangelicals I know are card carrying democrats, a throwback to when most in the party wore the long white robes at night. So everyone doesn't fit neatly into one little pigeon hole.
> 
> I know a lot of conservatives, myself included, that tune in to Nazi Propaganda Radio, regularly, if nothing else, to make fun of the spin they put on things, it's almost as entertaining as listening to Alex Jones. I bet CNN has not come close to mentioning the Texas Walmart hostage takers name, it was Mohammed, by the way. And, I didn't bring that up because I hate Muslims, I just hate acts of terror, carried out by radical muslims. Hearing the word "radical Islam" could be very reassuring, coming from the president, it would show the American people whose side he is on. From his actions, it is pretty hard to tell.


Post of the decade award.


----------



## tamarackreg

greg273 said:


> Are you even aware there is an ongoing war against ISIS?


Yes there is, just like there is a "war on drugs". 

Either would more appropriately be named "war on the constitution".


----------



## Raeven

Tricky Grama said:


> Only the ignorant do not know that there is NO formal declaration of war against ISIS.
> Want to tell us when the last declaration of war was?


LOL, only the super ignorant don't understand that you can't declare war against a tactic -- which is what terrorism is. Which sovereign nation shall we select to declare war against? Saudi Arabia? Syria? Egypt? Iran? Iraq? France? Belgium? Hey, we could declare war against ourselves! We've got terr'ists here, too! 

Wish Bush had known that in 2001.


----------



## FarmerKat

Since it seems contradictory that a devout Muslim would frequent a gay club, I thought this article (https://www.rt.com/news/346912-taliban-boys-sex-police/) adds an interesting perspective on Afghani culture.


----------



## Raeven

barnbilder said:


> According to Pew, 69% of American Muslims are immigrants. Most, of course, are not a problem. The problems come from Muslims that believe in Shariah. This is a set of teachings that come from three distinct places. The Quran, which is like the Old Testament of Christians, and Hadith, which are more the direct experiences and teachings of their prophet, and various Fatwa, which are like edicts directly from religious leaders. Some sects reject the hadith, much like Jews more or less reject the New Testament. Some fatwa are much more progressive. Some versions of the Hadith are translated much differently than the others, certain Hadith are not written, but passed orally, only among Muslims. The oral teachings are referred to as Sunnah. If you picked up a Quran at the bookstore and are basing your assumptions on your interpretations of it, then you are missing two thirds of the story. Traditional Shariah, based on the hadith, include things like throwing homosexuals from buildings, as performed by the prophet's own near descendant, beating women for arguing with their husband, rape accusations need 7 male witnesses, just to name a few. These form Sharia law. In Afghanistan 99% of Muslims favor Shariah law, 91% of those in Iraq, and 84% of those in Pakistan do as well. Saudi Arabia has a legal system based on Shariah law. It is no stretch to see that some of the people who immigrate from these countries would bring these beliefs with them, and teach them to their children.
> True, once born here, there is nothing to prevent them from buying a gun, but we could easily prevent them from being born here, by denying entry to Muslims from areas that practice Shariah, unless they could be properly investigated. It is pretty well documented that The Clinton Foundation has taken money from Shariah practicioners, this should be a left-leaning-enough source to be credible. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...y-clinton-took-money-kings-four-countries-go/ , the question is, has she used every penny of that money benevolently, or does she have a team of campaign bundlers working around the clock to launder it through the proper channels, so that it can be used without incrimination? Seems like with the speaking fees she can command anyway, it would be a convenient time to deny their contributions, and use it as an opportunity to chastise those governments for their horrendous treatment of women.
> 
> Here is a paragraph. Just for those who like paragraphs.


You've provided statistics with no supporting authority, given a lecture (unneeded) on the practice of Sharia, speculated wildly about what many immigrating Muslims would do to their children and attempted to smear a politician with suggestions of money laundering -- again, all without any supporting authority. For yourself on the campaign contribution issue, you accepted as authority the rhetoric offered by the Republican National Committee chairman shown to be half-true by Politifact, which distinguished between contributions made to the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton campaign. (By the way, just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them "left-leaning.") None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the 102 casualties of the shooting *that is the subject of this thread*.

As for how funds have been spent by the Clinton Foundation, that is a legitimate area of inquiry and inquiries can and should be made. However, once there has been a determination of wrongdoing -- or no wrongdoing, as the case may be -- then I think you need to let this stuff go, in the absence of actual proof of wrongdoing. Continually suggesting that there was a conspiracy, or that Clinton "minions" are hard at work behind the scenes in coverup efforts, only undermines whatever credibility you may have. It also has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Getting back to your concerns about Sharia, there is virtually no religion on earth that doesn't have some splinter group who interprets their book in an extremist way. We do not accept these values as a whole in American society, nor should we. Why single out Muslims?

You keep saying you understand that many Muslims are not the problem. If that is true, why keep trying to paint with the broad brush and punish them all with divisive language and proposed tactics that would alienate those who are good, law-abiding citizens?

Are you aware that most of the active ISIS terrorists have no religious affiliation whatsoever? They haven't read the Qu'ran. They couldn't tell you anything about Sharia. Most are disenfranchised misfit criminals who identify with the intolerable practices of ISIS. The shooter in Orlando named 3 separate terrorist organizations to whom he was declaring his allegiance -- ISIS, Al Qaeda and Hezbollah -- without knowing they all despise each other's ideologies. In doing so, he displayed his utter ignorance about Islam except for admiring the barbarism of ISIS. This is the case with many who join ISIS' ranks. They're criminals. Call them criminals and treat them accordingly.

The distinction is important and the language matters, because if you can't identify the actual underlying problem, you can't fix it. You can pretend to fix it, but you're just putting lipstick on a pig. You may think those of us who slice the hairs fine are not interested in addressing the problem. You're wrong. Just screaming rhetoric and jingoisms about "stupid liberals" doesn't change that.


----------



## greg273

FarmerKat said:


> Since it seems contradictory that a devout Muslim would frequent a gay club, I thought this article (https://www.rt.com/news/346912-taliban-boys-sex-police/) adds an interesting perspective on Afghani culture.


 He went because he was most likely a closeted homosexual. Whats so hard to understand about it? His 'jihadi' cred is lacking, he couldn't even decide which terror group he wanted to be a part of, he alternately claimed to be allied with Hezbollah, ISIS and al-queda, all groups that are fighting against each other. 
Sounds like he was a confused, self-loathing homosexual who used the jihadi angle in one last vain attempt to cover his true feelings.


----------



## barnbilder

He mentioned Hezbollah when he was in high school. Possibly to terrorize those around him. There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest this guy was gay. The fact that he was in a gay club means nothing. He also scoped out disney world, does that make him a mouseketeer? If he wasn't muslim, why was he shouting ollie akbar while he shot people. Sharia is not a splinter group, it is the practice of large numbers of muslims, around the globe. But, if you wish to believe that dismantling the constitution and bringing in boatloads of fresh terrorists will fix the problem, go right ahead.


----------



## greg273

barnbilder said:


> There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest this guy was gay.


 There is plenty of evidence.


----------



## Heritagefarm

greg273 said:


> There is plenty of evidence.


Why else would he use gay dating apps? There wouldn't have been any reason for that unless he wanted specific targets, which is obviously not what he wanted.


----------



## no really

Heritagefarm said:


> Why else would he use gay dating apps? There wouldn't have been any reason for that unless he wanted specific targets, which is obviously not what he wanted.


Or he was using the apps to further incite his hatred of gays and their lifestyle. Something to help him reach the state where he could shoot all those people.


----------



## Raeven

barnbilder said:


> He mentioned Hezbollah when he was in high school. Possibly to terrorize those around him. There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest this guy was gay. The fact that he was in a gay club means nothing. He also scoped out disney world, does that make him a mouseketeer? If he wasn't muslim, why was he shouting ollie akbar while he shot people. Sharia is not a splinter group, it is the practice of large numbers of muslims, around the globe. But, if you wish to believe that dismantling the constitution and bringing in boatloads of fresh terrorists will fix the problem, go right ahead.


In the USA, adherents to Sharia are a splinter group. Please stop conflating global concerns with domestic ones.

The shooter claimed *membership* with Hezbollah in the last 3 years. That statement, along with others, are what got him investigated in 2013. He would hardly have been in high school at age 26.

http://www.businessinsider.com/james-comey-orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-fbi-2016-6

I've not seen it reported anywhere that he shouted, "ollie akbar," or even "All&#257;hu Akbar" when he shot anyone. If you have a link that's reported that, it would be helpful. I've seen reports from surviving witnesses that he laughed; that he asked those who were still alive to raise their hands; that he commented he didn't have anything against blacks, and quite a few other statements. But no reports of "ollie akbar."

I'm not disputing the argument that he was inspired by terror organizations or that he was radicalized by them. He obviously was. I also believe he was radicalized by his father's extremist views. Additionally, I accept the evidence that he may have been very conflicted about his own sexuality. That said, I haven't heard any evidence that he actually engaged in a homosexual act. Believe it or not, all of those things can be simultaneously true and all factors contributed in varying degrees to his hideous choice to massacre American citizens. We don't yet know which of those things was the greatest contributor to his decision. What I object to is applying the broad brush to all Muslims in this country.

As for the rest of your post, I see you sought predictable refuge in using the timeworn tactic of making a personal attack. Nothing says, "I don't have a legitimate refutation to offer," than that.


----------



## Heritagefarm

no really said:


> Or he was using the apps to further incite his hatred of gays and their lifestyle. Something to help him reach the state where he could shoot all those people.


That would certainly have helped to that end. People can use stuff like that without actually believing it, so whether or not he was gay is up for grabs. My guess would be he had at least some gay tendency, because self hatred cast on an external group could be very powerful.


----------



## Clem

Billions of Muslims do not commit atrocities. Hundreds, thousands, or however many "self-loathing homosexuals" or whatever term fits do not commit atrocities. Only horrible people with twisted minds.

If people were to stop blaming groups, religions, ideologies, or categories for the acts of a homicidal maniac, and just blame the maniac himself, everybody would be right. What if, for instance, I were to kill these puppies? Would it be "old guy kills puppies" "southern godless infidel kills puppies" "Guy who smoked cigarettes until they went to 50 cents a pack kills puppies" "Man who admits to drinking a beer in 1968 and liking it kills puppies" Or the truth "Fed up puppykilling sicko kills puppies" 

Nah, truth wont sell. Plus, how could all of HT argue amongst themselves were we to actually blame Omar Mateen for what Omar Mateen did? So, blame religion and sexuality instead.

Hm...."Yet another Homesteadtoday member kills puppies in a rage over forum." Yeah...that's the one.


----------



## Shine

Clem said:


> Hm...."Yet another Homesteadtoday member kills puppies in a rage over forum." Yeah...that's the one.


You've made quite a salient point.


----------



## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you think the Govt should set up anyone they suspect of plotting to kill someone?
> 
> Do you listen to yourself?


Sometimes and yep. There are many cases when this is the proper thing to do.

Say you hear your neighbor's wife saying she wants to find someone to kill her husband. You report her to the police and they investigate and find that she has to others the same thing but there is just not enough evidence to convict her of a crime because all she has done is talk. They come to you and tell you to approach her and suggest if she really wants to kill her husband you can connect her with someone who might do it and give you a phone number which will be answered by a police office who will then see if she is just talking or will actually try to hire him to kill. Or would you refuse because you think the government is setting her up?

The key here is the fact there was more than one incident. Its not like he got angry one day and shot his mouth off. His actions reached the point he was investigated TWICE by the feds.


----------



## Heritagefarm

watcher said:


> Sometimes and yep. There are many cases when this is the proper thing to do.
> 
> Say you hear your neighbor's wife saying she wants to find someone to kill her husband. You report her to the police and they investigate and find that she has to others the same thing but there is just not enough evidence to convict her of a crime because all she has done is talk. They come to you and tell you to approach her and suggest if she really wants to kill her husband you can connect her with someone who might do it and give you a phone number which will be answered by a police office who will then see if she is just talking or will actually try to hire him to kill. Or would you refuse because you think the government is setting her up?
> 
> The key here is the fact there was more than one incident. Its not like he got angry one day and shot his mouth off. His actions reached the point he was investigated TWICE by the feds.


All the more reason to bar people like that from getting guns.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Tricky Grama said:


> *Only the ignorant* do not know that there is NO formal declaration of war against ISIS.
> Want to tell us when the last declaration of war was?


There is no defined procedure for "declaring war".

There are no magic words that have to be spoken

Any authorization of the use of force would constitute such a "declaration".

You can only "declare war" on other nations, not on some "group".

If you spent half as much time researching as you spend tossing out labels, you'd be a genius by now


----------



## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> Sometimes and yep. There are many cases when this is the proper thing to do.
> 
> *Say you hear* your neighbor's wife saying s*he wants to find someone to kill her husband.* You report her to the police and they investigate and find that she has to others the same thing but there is just not enough evidence to convict her of a crime because all she has done is talk. They come to you and tell you to approach her and suggest if she really wants to kill her husband you can connect her with someone who might do it and give you a phone number which will be answered by a police office who will then see if she is just talking or will actually try to hire him to kill. Or would you refuse because you think the government is setting her up?
> 
> The key here is the fact there was more than one incident. Its not like he got angry one day and shot his mouth off. His actions reached the point he was investigated TWICE by the feds.


Let's not play your usual boring "what if" games.

You're comparing someone who* stated outright* they wanted to commit a crime to someone who visited some websites and traveled to another country. Mateen was investigated and no hard evidence was found.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

barnbilder said:


> He mentioned Hezbollah when he was in high school. Possibly to terrorize those around him. There is absolutely *no evidence that would suggest this guy was gay*. The fact that he was in a gay club means nothing. He also scoped out disney world, does that make him a mouseketeer? If he wasn't muslim, why was he shouting ollie akbar while he shot people. Sharia is not a splinter group, it is the practice of large numbers of muslims, around the globe. But, if you wish to believe that dismantling the constitution and bringing in boatloads of fresh terrorists will fix the problem, go right ahead.


You once more prove you don't really research the topics you discuss, or you just don't care about sticking to the facts


----------



## Tricky Grama

Raeven said:


> LOL, only the super ignorant don't understand that you can't declare war against a tactic -- which is what terrorism is. Which sovereign nation shall we select to declare war against? Saudi Arabia? Syria? Egypt? Iran? Iraq? France? Belgium? Hey, we could declare war against ourselves! We've got terr'ists here, too!
> 
> Wish Bush had known that in 2001.


LOL, ISIS is holding land. They've declared a caliphate. They're in roughly the 1/3 top of Iraq, & into Syria. Declare war on them.


----------



## Tricky Grama

barnbilder said:


> He mentioned Hezbollah when he was in high school. Possibly to terrorize those around him. There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest this guy was gay. The fact that he was in a gay club means nothing. He also scoped out disney world, does that make him a mouseketeer? If he wasn't muslim, why was he shouting ollie akbar while he shot people. Sharia is not a splinter group, it is the practice of large numbers of muslims, around the globe. But, if you wish to believe that dismantling the constitution and bringing in boatloads of fresh terrorists will fix the problem, go right ahead.


He was in trouble from the time he was in Kindergarten. Every school he went to. Teachers really tried to get his parents to do something about his lack of control, defiance, and lack of compassion.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> Still no links? We're just supposed to trust something you claim to have 'heard' on FOX news? Come on tricky, if this is true, lets see some PROOF. You made the claims, now back them up!
> This is the closest I could find, and it proves nothing of the sort...In fact 'jihad' is still in the title of some FBI reports.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...b6eefa0-b379-11e2-bbf2-a6f9e9d79e19_blog.html


http://freedomoutpost.com/federal-a...islam-could-get-you-prosecution-imprisonment/


http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/h...violent-extremism-with-political-correctness/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/25/obamas-cleansing-of-islamic-terms-suppresses-commo/


https://pjmedia.com/homeland-securi...-guessed-gay-club-would-be-targeted-by-jihad/

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQSZ_nhMsE[/ame]

The youtube is Mike McCaul, house homeland security chair. The non-conservatives here prolly won't watch for fear they'd learn something. I really cannot believe those that haven't heard about the ban on saying 'jihad', etc. I even think we had a thread on it in pol a while back. Oh, well. The good part starts 'bout 5 min, 30 sec.
There's other links too. But we'll continue to have this happening as long as we have no formal declaration of war on ISIS. IF there's a formal declaration, there's laws that would've allowed the detainment of this savage as well as the San Bernadino ones, Ft Hood, etc.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> there's laws that would've allowed the *detainment* of this savage


Until the shooting Mateen hadn't broken any laws.

According to the links you posted, BO had nothing to do with "not saying Jihad"


----------



## watcher

Heritagefarm said:


> All the more reason to bar people like that from getting guns.


Again what other rights are you willing to see taken w/o due process?


----------



## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> Let's not play your usual boring "what if" games.
> 
> You're comparing someone who* stated outright* they wanted to commit a crime to someone who visited some websites and traveled to another country. Mateen was investigated and no hard evidence was found.


You don't get a one visit much less TWO from the FBI just for visiting websites and visiting another country. He was invest aged by the FBI because it was reported he was claiming to support and have ties to terrorist. As I said once you could count as someone just shooting their mouth off. But when the second report came in it should have triggered something more than another quick glance. To me it would be more than enough probable cause to start an operation where a "terrorist" would make contact with him and see if he was a blow hard or was actually willing to take action. Just like when a wife is reportedly looking to find someone to kill her husband and she is introduced to a "hit man".


----------



## barnbilder

Heritagefarm said:


> All the more reason to bar people like that from getting guns.


Well, the way it works here in America, in order to violate someone's constitutional rights, their has to be a trial, or a hearing at least have a judge involved.

It's a little thing called the fifth amendment. As much as you would like to say, "That ol' barnbilder says some crazy stuff" to the authorities, and keep me from having semi-automatic weapons, that is not how it works, at least for now. (Joe Mansion, the WV governor, would like to do away with the fifth amendment, by the way.) 

There are already laws preventing people that have been proven mentally incompetent from firearm buy/sell/possess. Federal laws as well as state laws. Here is a list of laws.http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-...session-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> The youtube is Mike McCaul, house homeland security chair. The non-conservatives here prolly won't watch for fear they'd learn something. I really cannot believe those that haven't heard about the ban on saying 'jihad', etc. I even think we had a thread on it in pol a while back. Oh, well. The good part starts 'bout 5 min, 30 sec.
> There's other links too. But we'll continue to have this happening as long as we have no formal declaration of war on ISIS. IF there's a formal declaration, there's laws that would've allowed the detainment of this savage as well as the San Bernadino ones, Ft Hood, etc.


 I did a little research into this, and looks like you're partially right, there are indeed SUGGESTIONS of language to use among certain government agencies when communicating with the public, but I still don't see any 'ban' and you've still shown no evidence that the 'FBI can't say jihad when questioning suspects' which is what your original assertation was. Although too bad you can't pin it on Obama, because the directives for the National Counterterrorism Center were put into place in 2008. 

Here ya go, have a look...

http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/127.pdf


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> But we'll continue to have this happening as long as we have no formal declaration of war on ISIS. IF there's a formal declaration, there's laws that would've allowed the detainment of this savage as well as the San Bernadino ones, Ft Hood, etc.


 More terrible, counterproductive ideas with no basis in reality. Trump is indeed the perfect candidate for you tricky, you guys are birds of a feather. Both fans of grandstanding gestures that seem like a good idea, but that would actually make the situation worse. Does it really need to be explained again that ISIS is not a true nation state and granting them that legitamacy would only INCREASE their attraction to disaffected Islamic criminals worldwide? In addition to that, it would change nothing on the battlefield, Obama is still trying to wage war against them using the Kurdish fighters backed by our airpower, trying to NOT get us deeply entangled in another decade-long protracted, expensive, bloody occupation of Iraq (AND Syria this time!).


----------



## Heritagefarm

barnbilder said:


> Well, the way it works here in America, in order to violate someone's constitutional rights, their has to be a trial, or a hearing at least have a judge involved.
> 
> It's a little thing called the fifth amendment. As much as you would like to say, "That ol' barnbilder says some crazy stuff" to the authorities, and keep me from having semi-automatic weapons, that is not how it works, at least for now. (Joe Mansion, the WV governor, would like to do away with the fifth amendment, by the way.)
> 
> There are already laws preventing people that have been proven mentally incompetent from firearm buy/sell/possess. Federal laws as well as state laws. Here is a list of laws.http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-...session-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx


I'll look into it. FYI Trump isn't a very big fan of the 5th amendment either.


----------



## Heritagefarm

watcher said:


> Again what other rights are you willing to see taken w/o due process?


We're not trying to take anyone's rights away, though certain Dems might want the 2nd repealed totally. I think it's safe to say the 2nd can simply be reinterpreted for our purposes.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> You don't get a one visit much less TWO from the FBI just for visiting websites and visiting another country. *He was invest aged by the FBI *because it was reported he was claiming to support and have ties to terrorist. As I said once you could count as someone just shooting their mouth off. But when the second report came in it should have triggered something more than another quick glance. To me it would be more than enough probable cause to start an operation where a "terrorist" would make contact with him and see if he was a blow hard or was actually willing to take action. Just like when a wife is reportedly looking to find someone to kill her husband and she is introduced to a "hit man".


You keep repeating the same thing, and pretending the didn't already do an investigation.

*They found no evidence he did anything illegal*

You're promoting "entrapment" and still using a fabricated example of someone admitting they wanted to commit a specific felony to justify it.

Just stick to the facts in *this* case


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> We're *not trying to take anyone's rights away*, though certain Dems might want the 2nd repealed totally. I think it's safe to say the 2nd can simply be reinterpreted for our purposes.


That is contradictory to what you said here:



> Originally Posted by Heritagefarm View Post
> All the more reason to *bar people like that from getting guns*.


There are *legal* reasons to restrict the sale of firearms.
Mateen met none of them, and being on some "list" isn't a good enough reason in itself


----------



## farmrbrown

watcher said:


> You don't get a one visit much less TWO from the FBI just for visiting websites and visiting another country. He was invest aged by the FBI because it was reported he was claiming to support and have ties to terrorist. As I said once you could count as someone just shooting their mouth off. But when the second report came in it should have triggered something more than another quick glance. To me it would be more than enough probable cause to start an operation where a "terrorist" would make contact with him and see if he was a blow hard or was actually willing to take action. Just like when a wife is reportedly looking to find someone to kill her husband and she is introduced to a "hit man".


Chances are we'll never know all the details OR be able to confirm them. But with 100 casualties, there is enough blame for everyone to get a slice. The vast majority of it falls squarely on the murderer, IMO.
He did the planning and killing and managed to get the opportunity. I don't think the authorities intentionally allowed it to happen and the victims certainly weren't doing anything but living their lives in peace.

According to the info that has been released, the FBI DID use a confidential informant to try and find out the murderer's intentions. They also used wiretaps with their surveillance of him.
He just didn't get caught before he did the crime. One thing to consider is, his contact and employment with law enforcement. At one time he even worked at the courthouse. All the secrecy in the world won't do any good if someone is "tipped off".


----------



## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are *legal* reasons to restrict the sale of firearms.
> Mateen met none of them,



That appears to be true.




> and being on some "list" isn't a good enough reason in itself



And that is actually false, not only in Florida, but in other states and even some federal laws.

There are many "lists" that will bar you from getting a firearm legally.
And "no", it does not require you to actually be convicted of a felony or in some cases any crime.
One example is being a dishonorably discharged veteran.
In some cases merely being charged with a crime and not convicted will get you on such a "list".


----------



## Tricky Grama

Bearfootfarm said:


> Until the shooting Mateen hadn't broken any laws.
> 
> According to the links you posted, BO had nothing to do with "not saying Jihad"


Oh, yeah, I forgot, this so-called POTUS has nothin' to do w/DOJ, DHS, FBI. Nah.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Raeven said:


> In the USA, adherents to Sharia are a splinter group. Please stop conflating global concerns with domestic ones.
> 
> The shooter claimed *membership* with Hezbollah in the last 3 years. That statement, along with others, are what got him investigated in 2013. He would hardly have been in high school at age 26.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/james-comey-orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-fbi-2016-6
> 
> I've not seen it reported anywhere that he shouted, "ollie akbar," or even "All&#257;hu Akbar" when he shot anyone. If you have a link that's reported that, it would be helpful. I've seen reports from surviving witnesses that he laughed; that he asked those who were still alive to raise their hands; that he commented he didn't have anything against blacks, and quite a few other statements. But no reports of "ollie akbar."
> 
> I'm not disputing the argument that he was inspired by terror organizations or that he was radicalized by them. He obviously was. I also believe he was radicalized by his father's extremist views. Additionally, I accept the evidence that he may have been very conflicted about his own sexuality. That said, I haven't heard any evidence that he actually engaged in a homosexual act. Believe it or not, all of those things can be simultaneously true and all factors contributed in varying degrees to his hideous choice to massacre American citizens. We don't yet know which of those things was the greatest contributor to his decision. What I object to is applying the broad brush to all Muslims in this country.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, I see you sought predictable refuge in using the timeworn tactic of making a personal attack. Nothing says, "I don't have a legitimate refutation to offer," than that.


Really, now, your criticism of others who don't provide evidence conflicts w/your statements w/o any evidence.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> More terrible, counterproductive ideas with no basis in reality. Trump is indeed the perfect candidate for you tricky, you guys are birds of a feather. Both fans of grandstanding gestures that seem like a good idea, but that would actually make the situation worse. Does it really need to be explained again that ISIS is not a true nation state and granting them that legitamacy would only INCREASE their attraction to disaffected Islamic criminals worldwide? In addition to that, it would change nothing on the battlefield, Obama is still trying to wage war against them using the Kurdish fighters backed by our airpower, trying to NOT get us deeply entangled in another decade-long protracted, expensive, bloody occupation of Iraq (AND Syria this time!).


I guess you didn't see the CIA director on TV. 
Perhaps all you saw was this inept POTUS's remarks: "ISIL's ranks are shrinking. Isis's morale is sinking."

Then not too long after comes the CIA director. Huh. Go figure. "ISIL's terrorist capabilities are NOT reduced. ISIL is training & attempting deploying operatives for further attacks on the west. ISIS has large caudre of western fighters who can potentially serve as operatives for attacks on the west The group is exploring a variety of means to infiltrate operatives into the west, including: REFUGES (in refuge flows) smuggling routes, and legit means of travel."

Huh. I guess this is just more "birds of a feather" grandstanding, making trouble, assuming that ISIS is a real state. 
If ISIS is wiped out, the 'homegrown', the operatives here would have no cheering section, no directives to keep at them to attack here. Or did you know that ISIS has repeatedly called for the jihadists here to attack at any opportunity? I suppose that's more "birds of a feather grandstanding".


----------



## Tricky Grama

Heritagefarm said:


> All the more reason to bar people like that from getting guns.


No one has mentioned the the 1st place he went to for guns wouldn't sell them to him b/c he wanted body armor too, and THAT MERCHANT notified the authorities!!! What when wrong there!!!


----------



## Tricky Grama

Bearfootfarm said:


> There is no defined procedure for "declaring war".
> 
> There are no magic words that have to be spoken
> 
> Any authorization of the use of force would constitute such a "declaration".
> 
> You can only "declare war" on other nations, not on some "group".
> 
> If you spent half as much time researching as you spend tossing out labels, you'd be a genius by now


I guess you do not know that ISIS has quite a bit of territory under their caliphate. They claim to be a country. 
I guess you have no clue about the process for congress to declare war. This one should have last Monday.

If you'd spend half as much time researching as you spend on insults & posts showing your hatred of Christians, you'd still not be a genius.


----------



## 7thswan

http://www.follownews.com/witnesses-orlando-shooter-shouted-allahu-akbar-during-rampage-1efep

Witnesses of an Orlando nightclub mass shooting, say the shooter, Omar Mateen, a known ISIS supporter, shouted &#8220;Allahu Akbar&#8221; during the shooting rampage that left at least 50 dead and scores more injured.
Allahu Akbar is an Islamic phrase, called Takbir in Arabic, meaning &#8220;God is greater&#8221; or &#8220;God is [the] greatest&#8221;.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> I did a little research into this, and looks like you're partially right, there are indeed SUGGESTIONS of language to use among certain government agencies when communicating with the public, but I still don't see any 'ban' and you've still shown no evidence that the 'FBI can't say jihad when questioning suspects' which is what your original assertation was. Although too bad you can't pin it on Obama, because the directives for the National Counterterrorism Center were put into place in 2008.
> 
> Here ya go, have a look...
> 
> http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/127.pdf


Huh, In your link it says to avoid saying "We are NOT at war w/Islam". Guess this POTUS didn't read that.

And you failed to mention this-out of the link I posted on page 20 of this thread:

Less than a week before Omar Mateen walked into an Orlando gay club and killed or wounded more than 100 people, the Homeland Security Advisory Council (HSAC) submitted its Countering Violent Extremism report to Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Jeh Johnson. The report instructs the DHS not to use any language that might be &#8220;disrespectful&#8221; to Muslims, including (but not limited to) the words &#8220;jihad,&#8221; &#8220;sharia&#8221; and &#8220;takfir.&#8221;

The report was crafted by an HSAC subcommittee that Secretary Johnson created in November 2015. The head of that subcommittee, Farah Pandith, was appointed by Johnson in May 2015. The subcommittee published the report on June 9.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/h...ed-to-combat-violent-extremism-with-political


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> I guess you didn't see the CIA director on TV.
> Perhaps all you saw was this inept POTUS's remarks: "ISIL's ranks are shrinking. Isis's morale is sinking."
> 
> Then not too long after comes the CIA director. Huh. Go figure. "ISIL's terrorist capabilities are NOT reduced. ISIL is training & attempting deploying operatives for further attacks on the west.


 You should stop assuming what others know and don't know, although its true I don't watch as much TV as you, which is a good thing. Studies have shown FOX viewers less informed generally. I heard the CIA directors statements, they were on many different news outlets.
Now look at the two statements you're apparently baffled by... They're both true. I know, the differences are subtle and nuanced, something some folks have trouble with. The flow of foreign fighters to ISIS has slowed dramatically, and people are abandoning them in droves. That has very little to do with their ability to wage terrorist attacks.


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> Huh, In your link it says to avoid saying "We are NOT at war w/Islam". Guess this POTUS didn't read that.
> 
> And you failed to mention this-out of the link I posted on page 20 of this thread:
> 
> Less than a week before Omar Mateen walked into an Orlando gay club and killed or wounded more than 100 people, the Homeland Security Advisory Council (HSAC) submitted its Countering Violent Extremism report to Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Jeh Johnson. The report instructs the DHS not to use any language that might be âdisrespectfulâ to Muslims, including (but not limited to) the words âjihad,â âshariaâ and âtakfir.âl


 Yes, I saw that. What you said was 'The* FBI* is banned from saying jihad when questioning someone'. DHS is not the FBI, and you've shown NOTHING that proves your statement. Once again, you HEARD something, about one organization and thier public statements, and ASSUMED it applied to another organization in their internal work. The fact is, you have no idea what the FBI is 'allowed' to say. Perhaps you should spend less time watching FOX and more time actually researching these things before spreading false or unverified information as passing it off as fact.


----------



## greg273

Tricky Grama said:


> If ISIS is wiped out, the 'homegrown', the operatives here would have no cheering section


 Lol thats pretty funny. Maybe they'll do like the Orlando shooter, try and claim affiliation with a couple of different terrorist groups, even ones who are fighting each other. 
I agree though, wiping out ISIS would be a good thing, but there will always been radicalized fundamentalist Islamic terrorists who think the 'west' is the enemy.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> That is contradictory to what you said here:
> 
> 
> 
> There are *legal* reasons to restrict the sale of firearms.
> Mateen met none of them, and being on some "list" isn't a good enough reason in itself


certain rights are revoked constantly for the greater good. Are you afraid you'll wind up on some list? Maybe they'll equate the no-fly list with the "Homesteading Today Troll List."


----------



## TripleD

Heritagefarm said:


> certain rights are revoked constantly for the greater good. Are you afraid you'll wind up on some list? Maybe they'll equate the no-fly list with the "Homesteading Today Troll List."


So if you see somebody buying a 6 pack at the store we need to revoke their license because they ''might drink and drive'' ?


----------



## Heritagefarm

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/06/orlando-club-had-armed-security/

Trump said there were no guns, but there was one armed guard. I guess that wasn't enough?


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> http://www.factcheck.org/2016/06/orlando-club-had-armed-security/
> 
> Trump said there were no guns, but there was one armed guard. I guess that wasn't enough?


One guard, likely wearing a uniform. Instant and initial target.


----------



## no really

Heritagefarm said:


> http://www.factcheck.org/2016/06/orlando-club-had-armed-security/
> 
> Trump said there were no guns, but there was one armed guard. I guess that wasn't enough?


Apparently not. I will not second guess that guard in any way, he was doing a job that in that venue is more than difficult.


----------



## Heritagefarm

TripleD said:


> So if you see somebody buying a 6 pack at the store we need to revoke their license because they ''might drink and drive'' ?


We already tried it, it didn't work. (Prohibition) It's unclear whether more gun laws would actually accomplish anything.


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> We already tried it, it didn't work. (Prohibition) It's unclear whether more gun laws would actually accomplish anything.


The one, and only, decent thing about Prohibition is that the government went about it in the correct fashion. They amended the Constitution to allow it. They didn't have their legal team "reinterpret" the document to get their way as has been the common practice for most of the 20th century to date.


----------



## Nevada

Tricky Grama said:


> Huh, In your link it says to avoid saying "We are NOT at war w/Islam". Guess this POTUS didn't read that.
> 
> And you failed to mention this-out of the link I posted on page 20 of this thread:
> 
> Less than a week before Omar Mateen walked into an Orlando gay club and killed or wounded more than 100 people, the Homeland Security Advisory Council (HSAC) submitted its Countering Violent Extremism report to Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Jeh Johnson. The report instructs the DHS not to use any language that might be âdisrespectfulâ to Muslims, including (but not limited to) the words âjihad,â âshariaâ and âtakfir.â


But this incident is shaping up to be less of an ISIS thing and more of someone confused about his sexuality.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Farmerga said:


> The one, and only, decent thing about Prohibition is that the government went about it in the correct fashion. They amended the Constitution to allow it. They didn't have their legal team "reinterpret" the document to get their way as has been the common practice for most of the 20th century to date.


In that case we could vie for a 2nd amendment amendment.


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> In that case we could vie for a 2nd amendment amendment.


There is nothing, in the Constitution, that forbids the repeal of the 2nd amendment, or, the 1st, or, the 5th, or, whichever amendment gives the subjects of the U.S. too much liberty.


----------



## Farmerga

Nevada said:


> But this incident is shaping up to be less of an ISIS thing and more of someone confused about his sexuality.


I know that, for the sake of the God King Obama, the "Left" is desperate to call this anything other than ISIS terror, but, the unbalanced and self loathing is exactly the type of person that can be easily exploited by the likes of ISIS.


----------



## TripleD

Heritagefarm said:


> In that case we could vie for a 2nd amendment amendment.


How about we just repeal the 3rd and you can move some troops in ?:bash:


----------



## Farmerga

I have been looking at the silly "gun ban for those who happen to be on the "terror watch list" as a 2nd amendment issue as that is the amendment that the party of Indian removal, slavery, and internment camps go after most often, but, when one steps back and thinks about it, it is, in fact a 5th amendment issue. It denies due process of law. Lets take a look at the text of the 5th amendment:



> No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, *nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law*; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


 I have bolded the relevant part. As these people haven't been tried, in a court of law, nor convicted of any crime, these proposed laws are in direct violation of the 5th amendment of the Constitution of the United States. Well, it in not as if the Bill of Rights means squat to the Party of Indian Removal, Slavery, and Internment Camps.


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> But this incident is shaping up to be less of an ISIS thing and more of someone confused about his sexuality.


And he could be both. The investigation is in it's infancy right now. 

But it is easier to feel he was just a confused homosexual than that he was a terrorist, normalcy bias.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Farmerga said:


> There is nothing, in the Constitution, that forbids the repeal of the 2nd amendment, or, the 1st, or, the 5th, or, whichever amendment gives the subjects of the U.S. too much liberty.


I never said I supported repeal.



Farmerga said:


> I have been looking at the silly "gun ban for those who happen to be on the "terror watch list" as a 2nd amendment issue as that is the amendment that the party of Indian removal, slavery, and internment camps go after most often, but, when one steps back and thinks about it, it is, in fact a 5th amendment issue. It denies due process of law. Lets take a look at the text of the 5th amendment:
> 
> 
> 
> I have bolded the relevant part. As these people haven't been tried, in a court of law, nor convicted of any crime, these proposed laws are in direct violation of the 5th amendment of the Constitution of the United States. Well, it in not as if the Bill of Rights means squat to the Party of Indian Removal, Slavery, and Internment Camps.


The Democrats were conservative back then. Start harping about how evil the Democrats are - it's always been conservatives who have held this country back from making progress.

http://www.dineshdsouza.com/news/dsouza-claims-democratic-party-pro-slavery/



> In the 1828 campaign, Democrats claimed to represent &#8220;the people&#8221; against the corrupt, tyrannical, aristocratic administration of president John Quincy Adams. Adams&#8217;s liberal agenda of international improvements, technological innovations, public education, and cooperation with new Latin American nations was anathema to Southern conservatives, who despised America&#8217;s dark-skinned neighbors and who feared that a dynamic, activist federal government threatened slavery. &#8220;If Congress can make canals,&#8221; declared Nathanial Macon of North Carolina, &#8220;they can with more propriety emancipate.&#8221;1


----------



## Nevada

no really said:


> But it is easier to feel he was just a confused homosexual than that he was a terrorist, normalcy bias.


Actually it was easier to assume he did it for ISIS. The confused sexuality thing is a lot more complicated.


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> Actually it was easier to assume he did it for ISIS. The confused sexuality thing is a lot more complicated.



Interesting that you feel that way. Since confused sexuality is not out of the ordinary, but a terrorist killing and injuring that many in a nightclub in Orlando is a bit unusual.


----------



## Nevada

no really said:


> Interesting that you feel that way. Since confused sexuality is not out of the ordinary, but a terrorist killing and injuring that many in a nightclub in Orlando is a bit unusual.


The circumstantial evidence pointed to the ISIS theory at first. It was easy enough to believe.


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> The circumstantial evidence pointed to the ISIS theory at first. It was easy enough to believe.



What evidence points to confused sexuality?


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> But this incident is shaping up to be less of an ISIS thing and more of someone confused about his sexuality.


Nevada, it's a islam "thing". As far as his sexuality , sure maybe he did self-loath,which we know islam is against homosexuality, BUT we also know that they get extra points for murdering infidels . Might all equal out in his warped mind.


----------



## 7thswan

no really said:


> What evidence points to confused sexuality?


Did you hear that FBI told the wife not to mention to anyone that he was Gay.


----------



## Nevada

no really said:


> What evidence points to confused sexuality?


A dozen visits to Pluse, a lot more than was necessary to be casing the place. Gay contact apps on his cell phone. Some of the people at Pulse who knew him believed he was gay.


----------



## Farmerga

Heritagefarm said:


> I never said I supported repeal.
> 
> 
> 
> The Democrats were conservative back then. Start harping about how evil the Democrats are - it's always been conservatives who have held this country back from making progress.
> 
> http://www.dineshdsouza.com/news/dsouza-claims-democratic-party-pro-slavery/


Yeah, the bastion of Conservatism that was FDR. No my friend, the desire, of the leftist party to subjugate others, hasn't changed, the tactics have merely been modified. The Democrats have always and continue to claim to be for "The People" and against the aristocratic (fill in the blank with Billionaires, CEO's, Rich Northern industrialists, Special Interests, Those "Indian lovers from the east, etc..) They have always been about dividing an concurring, using what ever rubes they could fool into their way of thinking and turning them into cannon fodder.


----------



## colourfastt

Farmerga said:


> Yeah, the bastion of Conservatism that was FDR. No my friend, the desire, of the leftist party to subjugate others, hasn't changed, the tactics have merely been modified. The Democrats have always and continue to claim to be for "The People" and against the aristocratic (fill in the blank with Billionaires, CEO's, Rich Northern industrialists, Special Interests, Those "Indian lovers from the east, etc..) They have always been about dividing an concurring, using what ever rubes they could fool into their way of thinking and turning them into cannon fodder.


My favourite quote from tRump: "If I ever run for president, Iâll run as a Republican because Republican voters are the dumbest group of voters in the country. They believe anything and everything on Fox News. I can lie and they still eat it up." Donald Trump (D, NY) People Magazine 1998


----------



## Farmerga

colourfastt said:


> My favourite quote from tRump: "If I ever run for president, I&#8217;ll run as a Republican because Republican voters are the dumbest group of voters in the country. They believe anything and everything on Fox News. I can lie and they still eat it up." Donald Trump (D, NY) People Magazine 1998


It would seem that many American, not just Republicans are too stupid to find their butts with both hands. Look at the "choice" we have given ourselves? Hillary, possibly the most evil person ever to run for President, and Trump, a blowhard bully and Democrat with a thin veneer of RW talking points.

And BTW, There is absolutely no evidence that Trump ever said it: http://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> A dozen visits to Pluse, a lot more than was necessary to be casing the place. Gay contact apps on his cell phone. Some of the people at Pulse who knew him believed he was gay.


So far they haven't found he had an account from the app.

Yeah he was at Pulse, he could have been checking to see what they had in security, normal activity for a terrorist.. As to the several visits he could have been there to see which timeframe would be more optimal.


----------



## wr

Tricky Grama said:


> No one has mentioned the the 1st place he went to for guns wouldn't sell them to him b/c he wanted body armor too, and THAT MERCHANT notified the authorities!!! What when wrong there!!!


I read that it had been investigated but with no name, phone number, address, license plate number or any indication of identity, the authorities had very little information to conduct an investigation. 

The employees did recognize pictures of him on the news after the shooting but I would think that without some kind of information that lead to the shooter's front door, it would be a little like looking for a needle in a haystack with the information provided at the time.


----------



## wr

7thswan said:


> Did you hear that FBI told the wife not to mention to anyone that he was Gay.


Given that his wife is under investigation as an accomplice, I find the idea that the FBI would coach someone about what they share to the media to be highly doubtful.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> A dozen visits to Pluse, a lot more than was necessary to be casing the place. Gay contact apps on his cell phone. Some of the people at Pulse who knew him believed he was gay.


Yes, I saw an interview with a bartender. His potential gayness means nothing. There are other reasons one would "pretend" to be gay. Look at the muslims that flew planes into the towers, they frequented strip clubs and drank. They are allowed to do anything to further the islamic cause.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> certain rights are revoked constantly for the greater good. Are you afraid you'll wind up on some list? Maybe they'll equate the no-fly list with the "Homesteading Today Troll List."


You make a great cheerleader for Govt repression.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

7thswan said:


> *Did you hear* that FBI told the wife not to mention to anyone that he was Gay.


That's hearsay and nothing more.
There's no logical reason for them to say that


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by Tricky Grama View Post
> *No one has mentioned* the the 1st place he went to for guns wouldn't sell them to him b/c he wanted body armor too, and THAT MERCHANT notified the authorities!!! What when wrong there!!!


It's not only been mentioned, but it's been largely refuted.
Go back to post 205 
I'm pretty sure you read it since you "liked" several posts on the same page

He didn't try to buy any guns, and they didn't "refuse" to sell him body armor because what he asked about isn't something they sell at all.


----------



## FarmerKat

7thswan said:


> Yes, I saw an interview with a bartender. His potential gayness means nothing. There are other reasons one would "pretend" to be gay. Look at the muslims that flew plains into the towers, they frequented strip clubs and drank. They are allowed to do anything to further the islamic cause.


I find this odd ... there are always reports after the attack that the attackers were not religious, engaged in drinking alcohol, casual sex, etc. yet - almost overnight - they are willing to die for their religion. Similar reports were out there about the European attackers.


----------



## 7thswan

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's hearsay and nothing more.
> There's no logical reason for them to say that


There's no logic for all of what is going on, well except, to obama and his muslim brotherhood buddies. There is no logic whatsoever to bring in a million potential killers.


----------



## 7thswan

FarmerKat said:


> I find this odd ... there are always reports after the attack that the attackers were not religious, engaged in drinking alcohol, casual sex, etc. yet - almost overnight - they are willing to die for their religion. Similar reports were out there about the European attackers.


Taqiya (&#1578;&#1602;&#1740;&#1577; taqiyyah/taq&#299;yah, literally "fear, caution") is a form of Islamic dissimulation or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny their faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.

Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim should appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel that way..

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir (vol 4, p 49)

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Feel free to take this however you want. You can also replace "Holy Bible" with "Quran" and basically get the same results.


----------



## 7thswan

Heritagefarm said:


> Feel free to take this however you want. You can also replace "Holy Bible" with "Quran" and basically get the same results.


Not. As little as I know,I know most Christians don't still live in the 7th century. Islam will never "progress" they belive the Qur'an is perfect as is and should NEVER evolve/change.


----------



## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> You make a great cheerleader for Govt repression.


I don't know what you're referring to.

_This post paid for by the National Democratic Committee for Excessive Government Control_


----------



## Raeven

Tricky Grama said:


> Really, now, your criticism of others who don't provide evidence conflicts w/your statements w/o any evidence.


No one asked me for any links. If they had, I'd have provided them.

The rest of my post was an opinion, as indicated by such words as, "I believe." I know you struggle to differentiate, but maybe one day you'll get the hang of it.


----------



## Raeven

7thswan said:


> http://www.follownews.com/witnesses-orlando-shooter-shouted-allahu-akbar-during-rampage-1efep
> 
> Witnesses of an Orlando nightclub mass shooting, say the shooter, Omar Mateen, a known ISIS supporter, shouted âAllahu Akbarâ during the shooting rampage that left at least 50 dead and scores more injured.
> Allahu Akbar is an Islamic phrase, called Takbir in Arabic, meaning âGod is greaterâ or âGod is [the] greatestâ.


Thank you for the link, but color me skeptical. It's a Twitter page. I've done my own searches and have not found any report of this on any credible news site -- only ones I would classify as "bat crap crazy." No offense. I appreciate that you made the effort.


----------



## keenataz

Again there is no cause. Obviously the terrorism angle and perhaps the sexuality. Also from the news today he has always been a troubled person. His school file was full of discipline problems, suspensions. Co workers had anecdotal stories describing a troubled person. 

I think all this crap got mixed in a blender and we got this terrible terror attacked/ hate crime/ demented murder


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by Tricky Grama View Post
> Really, now, your criticism of others* who don't provide evidence* conflicts w/your statements w/o any evidence.


I'm still waiting for you to provide links to "lies" I have told


----------



## barnbilder

It appears that some people are hung up on the sexual orientation of the shooter. You have to understand, although homosexuality carries heavy penalties in the muslim world, that doesn't mean it is uncommon. There are considerations for the specific role of the particular homosexual, in some circles, the active partner is only flogged, while the passive partner is killed. It can also be looked at as the ultimate act of violence, if Omar could convince himself that he was raping infidels, it might still be "sort of OK", or excusable. In some parts of muslim society, the abuse of young boys is commonplace. In some Taliban rules, it is advisable to make sure that they don't have facial hair, that way they aren't a man yet, so it is OK. (I'm not singling out Islam here, similar things have happened in the Catholic church.) This guy was a sick puppy, so none of us are going to be able to really get into his mind, I hope. But, I'm not buying that he acted out because of some sense of self loathing from being a closeted homosexual, when some homosexual acts could be just an extension of jihad, or a precursor to the final act of jihad. I think that Islam was a strong factor in this situation.


----------



## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> You keep repeating the same thing, and pretending the didn't already do an investigation.
> 
> *They found no evidence he did anything illegal*
> 
> You're promoting "entrapment" and still using a fabricated example of someone admitting they wanted to commit a specific felony to justify it.
> 
> Just stick to the facts in *this* case


Clearly not because it has been used many times to catch many different types of criminal. Entrapment would be if they went up to him and said "We want to kill a lot of people would you like to do it for us?" Going up to him and saying "Did you really mean it when you said you support what the terrorist are doing?" isn't.

The fact is there was enough PC to start TWO investigations of him. The fact the feds went back a second time shows they felt the first investigation showed there was a possible problem but there wasn't enough evidence at the time to get an arrest warrant. I'd be willing to bet if there was enough evidence to justify a SECOND investigation there was enough to get authorization for a sting especially after the second investigation. But until/unless the case files are released, uncensored, we will never know for sure what was known and what actions were requested and/or denied.


----------



## Nevada

barnbilder said:


> It appears that some people are hung up on the sexual orientation of the shooter. You have to understand, although homosexuality carries heavy penalties in the muslim world, that doesn't mean it is uncommon. There are considerations for the specific role of the particular homosexual, in some circles, the active partner is only flogged, while the passive partner is killed. It can also be looked at as the ultimate act of violence, if Omar could convince himself that he was raping infidels, it might still be "sort of OK", or excusable. In some parts of muslim society, the abuse of young boys is commonplace. In some Taliban rules, it is advisable to make sure that they don't have facial hair, that way they aren't a man yet, so it is OK.


Where did you learn these things about Islam?


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> Where did you learn these things about Islam?


It pays to read up on it. He is correct. It is common in Islam and varies from sect to sect just as laws on marital rape and other sexual issues do.


----------



## barnbilder

I have studied Islam and Arab culture for about 15 years now. (Hasn't everyone?) This is not so much Islam as simply Arab culture. Rape is common as a form of aggression, toward slaves, infidels, or enemies. Raping another muslim adult male would be bad, another adult infidel male, not as bad, an infidel male child, even less bad. Female rape is even less looked down upon, possibly even warranted in some cases. It is a very violent culture.


----------



## Nevada

poppy said:


> It pays to read up on it.


Sure. Where do you suggest I go to learn more about that?


----------



## farmrbrown

The internet is a wealth of information, isn't it?

See how they do it Afghani-style........
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi


----------



## farmrbrown

Of course, some will say that is a cultural thing, not sanctioned by the prophet of Islam.
Well.........

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...phet-muhammad-kissed-the-penis-of-small-boys/


----------



## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> Clearly not because it has been used many times to catch many different types of criminal. Entrapment would be if they went up to him and said "We want to kill a lot of people would you like to do it for us?" Going up to him and saying "Did you really mean it when you said you support what the terrorist are doing?" isn't.
> 
> The fact is there was enough PC to start TWO investigations of him. The fact the feds went back a second time shows they felt the first investigation showed there was a possible problem but there wasn't enough evidence at the time to get an arrest warrant. I'd be willing to bet if there was enough evidence to justify a SECOND investigation there was enough to get authorization for a sting especially after the second investigation. But until/unless the case files are released, uncensored, we will never know for sure what was known and what actions were requested and/or denied.


*Saying* you support something isn't illegal
You're just repeating yourself, and expecting a different result each time


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by watcher
> I'd be willing to bet if there was enough evidence to justify a SECOND investigation there was enough to get authorization for *a sting *especially after the second investigation. But until/unless the case files are released, uncensored, we will never know for sure what was known and what actions were requested and/or denied.


It appears they did in fact try to set him up, but he wouldn't take the bait.
You should be satisfied now since they did exactly what you said they should:
https://theconservativetreehouse.co...uty-and-his-family-fbi-dismissed/#more-117631



> A deputy at the courthouse mentioned the Middle East to Mateen, who reacted by threatening the deputy, said Sheriff Ken Mascara, who attended the Wednesday night meeting at the community&#8217;s Island Club.
> 
> &#8220;Omar became very agitated and made a comment that he could have al-Qaida kill my employee and his family,&#8221; Mascara said Wednesday. &#8220;If that wasn&#8217;t bad enough, he followed it up with very disturbing comments about women and followed it up with very disturbing comments about Jews and then went on to say that the Fort Hood shooter was justified in his actions.&#8221;
> 
> The FBI launched an investigation into Mateen after Sheriff&#8217;s Office officials reported the incident to the agency. As part of its investigation, *the FBI examined Mateen&#8217;s travel history, phone records, acquaintances and even planted a confidential informant in the courthouse to &#8220;lure Omar into some kind of act and Omar did not bite*,&#8221; Mascara said. The FBI concluded Mateen was not a threat after that, Mascara said.


----------



## 7thswan

Raeven said:


> Thank you for the link, but color me skeptical. It's a Twitter page. I've done my own searches and have not found any report of this on any credible news site -- only ones I would classify as "bat crap crazy." No offense. I appreciate that you made the effort.


I heard it on TV, then I looked for a link.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> Where did you learn these things about Islam?


Nevada, there are many ex-muslims telling the truth. easly found. Very brave too considering how much other islamics would like to shut them up.


----------



## Heritagefarm

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/islam-facts-or-dreams/2/

This article would seem to support the premise that it's rather difficult to interpret the Quran into a peaceful religion.


----------



## greg273

Bearfootfarm said:


> *Saying* you support something isn't illegal


 Making threats against people can be illegal... Once numerous people complain that they've been threatened, and the FBI has gotten involved, there is no way this dude should have been able to purchase a firearm. Sorry about his supposed rights, the rights of everyone else to not be shot by that jerk take precendence.


----------



## Heritagefarm

greg273 said:


> Making threats against people can be illegal... Once numerous people complain that they've been threatened, and the FBI has gotten involved, there is no way this dude should have been able to purchase a firearm. Sorry about his supposed rights, the rights of everyone else to not be shot by that jerk take precendence.


Exactly. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or few. We cannot sacrifice everyone else's liberty just so a small percentage of people who ARE law abiding do not get thrown on the no-gun list.


----------



## Nevada

7thswan said:


> Nevada, there are many ex-muslims telling the truth. easly found. Very brave too considering how much other islamics would like to shut them up.


I guess I don't know a lot about how people think in Afghanistan. What I can tell you is homosexuality is condemned in Saudi Arabia, and I never heard any exceptions to that.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> I guess I don't know a lot about how people think in Afghanistan. What I can tell you is homosexuality is condemned in Saudi Arabia, and I never heard any exceptions to that.


One can always find apologists willing to dismiss the harsh rhetoric of the Quran with creative interpretation, tortuous explanation or outright denial, but their words and deeds almost always belie a concern for Islam's image that does not extend to Islam's victims - at least not with the same sense of urgency - thus proving the point.

Of course, there are also exceptional Muslims who do not agree with Islamic supremacy and sincerely champion secularism and respect for all people. Some even find verses or fragments of such to support their independent beliefs. But, for these people, the Quran as a whole will always be a constant challenge, since it explicitly teaches the distinct and inferior status of non-Muslims.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/quran-hate.aspx



You mention SA, did you know a few SA Princes visited the WH yesterday. No media allowed. It's as important now to remember what many have warned of when we let the public know of the $ donated to Harvard to get obama in from the Saudi Prince. Also to remember that president is more Arab than Black. Maybe that is the point of playing up his blackness, when he is very little.


----------



## Nevada

7thswan said:


> You mention SA, did you know a few SA Princes visited the WH yesterday. No media allowed.


Yes. I keep up on USA-Saudi relations pretty closely. That prince is actually second in line for the throne, but the first in line has recently developed health problems. This visit is the first chance for US government officials to get to know him.

There's a lot of speculation over whether his visit has something to do with proposals to declassify the 9/11 investigation pages. I kind of doubt that. Some Saudi officials have suggested declassifying those 28 pages in the past. I suspect that the 28 pages are not classified because they directly implicate Saudi in 9/11, but that there's something embarrassing to the US government in them.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> Yes. I keep up on USA-Saudi relations pretty closely. That prince is actually second in line for the throne, but the first in line has recently developed health problems. This visit is the first chance for US government officials to get to know him.
> 
> There's a lot of speculation over whether his visit has something to do with proposals to declassify the 9/11 investigation pages. I kind of doubt that. Some Saudi officials have suggested declassifying those 28 pages in the past. I suspect that the 28 pages are not classified because they directly implicate Saudi in 9/11, but that there's something embarrassing to the US government in them.


Yup. Remember Bush sent a group of Saudis home right after 9/11 and it was he that said islam is a religion of peace. But also the Obamas visited a Saudi in the hosptial harmed(?) in the Boston Bombings. People have a right to wounder what is going on.


----------



## popscott

colourfastt said:


> My favourite quote from tRump: "If I ever run for president, Iâll run as a Republican because Republican voters are the dumbest group of voters in the country. They believe anything and everything on Fox News. I can lie and they still eat it up." Donald Trump (D, NY) People Magazine 1998


Weâll save you the effort. It is not an actual quote by Trump. And a public relations representative with People told us that the magazine couldnât find anything like that quote in its archives, either. 

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/bogus-meme-targets-trump/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Donald Trump did not say that Republicans are the "dumbest group of voters" in a 1998 'People' magazine interview.

http://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/


----------



## popscott

7thswan said:


> But also the Obamas visited a Saudi in the hosptial harmed(?) in the Boston Bombings. People have a right to wounder what is going on.


HHHHHHMMMMMMMM......

http://www.video.theblaze.com/video/v26490701/details-on-saudi-national


----------



## 7thswan

popscott said:


> HHHHHHMMMMMMMM......
> 
> http://www.video.theblaze.com/video/v26490701/details-on-saudi-national


Thanks! Haven't seen that.


----------



## greg273

7thswan said:


> One can always find apologists willing to dismiss the harsh rhetoric of the Quran with creative interpretation, tortuous explanation or outright denial,.


 Yeah, I hear the same thing about the Old Testament and its edicts to kill people and burn their towns if they don't worship the same god. Good thing modern Christians don't follow that stuff!


----------



## 7thswan

greg273 said:


> Yeah, I hear the same thing about the Old Testament and its edicts to kill people and burn their towns if they don't worship the same god. Good thing modern Christians don't follow that stuff!


Wow greg, You know of any links about Chris, well, aren't "Christians" those that believe in Christ,you know, the new Testament?
Islamists don't have an updated version,infact sinse you know so much about about islam,you know it would be wrong(sinful) for them to update their beleifs into being a bit more modern.


----------



## Heritagefarm

greg273 said:


> Yeah, I hear the same thing about the Old Testament and its edicts to kill people and burn their towns if they don't worship the same god. Good thing modern Christians don't follow that stuff!


When was the last time Christians paraded a Muslim woman, naked, down the streets and make lewd jokes at her? Because this happened, in reverse, in Egypt recently.


----------



## barnbilder

Bringing up Old Testament scripture to condemn Christianity shows a certain degree of misunderstanding. Parts of the Old Testament and the Quran tell the same story in many ways. In some ways Islam is an offshoot of Judaism. I haven't come across any prophets sexually abusing children in any bible translations I have read, but I haven't read them all, some middle easterners did want to have involuntary relations with Jesus at one point, which was a custom at the time, as a way to greet foreigners.

edited to correct: Had to brush up, it wasn't Jesus, but two angels that the men wanted. I do remember hearing some theologian discussing this Old Testament reference in regards to Jesus and his disciples, traveling in groups was preferable in those days as all sorts of calamities could befall a stranger traveling alone, including the custom of random stranger raping. Those particular people in the Old Testament reference were destroyed, and the Quran even ties in with a very similar account.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

greg273 said:


> Making threats against people can be illegal... Once numerous people complain that they've been threatened, and the FBI has gotten involved, there is no way this dude should have been able to purchase a firearm. Sorry about his supposed rights, the rights of everyone else to not be shot by that jerk take precendence.


A "threat" has to be credible to be criminal.

Unless there are formal charges and convictions, mere "talk" isn't enough to restrict any rights at all.

None of the investigations found evidence of any* crimes* or real connections to terrorists

He was just a loudmouth most of his life


----------



## watcher

farmrbrown said:


> Chances are we'll never know all the details OR be able to confirm them. But with 100 casualties, there is enough blame for everyone to get a slice. The vast majority of it falls squarely on the murderer, IMO.
> He did the planning and killing and managed to get the opportunity. I don't think the authorities intentionally allowed it to happen and the victims certainly weren't doing anything but living their lives in peace.


But a very large slice falls on the pols who forced anyone with a CCW to either go into the club defenseless, go into the club armed in violation the law and face the consequences of that if caught or not go into the club at all.

Let's look at some numbers. Based on the population figures and the number of CCW permits over 10% of Floridians have a CCW permit. There were over 300 people in the club at the time of the terrorist attack. That means, statistically, there were 30 people there who could have been armed and could have engaged the shooter if the state had not made it illegal for them to do so.


----------



## watcher

Farmerga said:


> One guard, likely wearing a uniform. Instant and initial target.


Yet some people want to carry openly.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> But this incident is shaping up to be less of an ISIS thing and more of someone confused about his sexuality.


Nice try at a diversion. Its been reported he specifically told blacks he wasn't going to shoot them so you might be able to call it a hate/race crime. Its been reported he told people he was doing it for his nation, Afghanistan, so you might be able to call it treason. Its been reported he did it in support of his religion so you could call it terrorism. But AFAIK nothing has been reported he said anything about killing people because he did or did not want to have sex with them.


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## watcher

7thswan said:


> Nevada, it's a islam "thing". As far as his sexuality , sure maybe he did self-loath,which we know islam is against homosexuality, BUT we also know that they get extra points for murdering infidels . Might all equal out in his warped mind.


Actually Islam says homosexuals must be killed.


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## watcher

Nevada said:


> A dozen visits to Pluse, a lot more than was necessary to be casing the place. Gay contact apps on his cell phone. Some of the people at Pulse who knew him believed he was gay.


A dozen recons for a single op isn't a lot more than necessary. In this case he'd have to learn the locations of any security, he'd want to know where the emergency exits were and if they could be blocked/jammed, he'd want to know when the most people would be there, he'd want to know the layout to plan his attack path, he'd want to know when there would be the most people there, etc., etc. And its good opsec to have your targets think you are one of them. If he was known to the armed guard that would have caused at least a moment's confusion in the guard's mind which could have been fatal.


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## watcher

FarmerKat said:


> I find this odd ... there are always reports after the attack that the attackers were not religious, engaged in drinking alcohol, casual sex, etc. yet - almost overnight - they are willing to die for their religion. Similar reports were out there about the European attackers.


Its not really odd. For one thing its "OK" for a follower of Islam to violate the teachings if doing so will promote Islam in the end. Also Islam says if you martyr yourself you automatically get into paradise so if you have a guaranteed ticket in why not take advantage of all the sins of this world while you can?


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## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> *Saying* you support something isn't illegal
> You're just repeating yourself, and expecting a different result each time


Saying you support something isn't illegal but if the police believe you really support some illegal thing it they can legally run a covert op and put an agent in contact with you to provide a conduit for you to take action on your support. 

If you state you want to kill a bunch of gays because your religion says you must a LEA could have someone befriend you, tell you he hates gays and when you tell him you want to kill a bunch he can LEGALLY offer to obtain the tools necessary for you to do so. As soon as you take control of the tools he can arrest you and the courts would reject all your pleas of entrapment.

There was enough PC for the feds to investigate him once. Then when he was reported again they didn't say "Well we've already checked into this guy and his OK, there's no need to waste time checking him again." They spent the time and money to investigated him a second time. To me that says in the first investigation they didn't find anything which would meet the requirement for an arrest there was enough there to make them want to see if they could find something if they looked again.


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## watcher

Nevada said:


> I guess I don't know a lot about how people think in Afghanistan. What I can tell you is homosexuality is condemned in Saudi Arabia, and I never heard any exceptions to that.


The way I understand it is the men are not viewed as homosexuals. They are hetrosexuals who use young boys for sex. Its kinda like a girl who wants to say she's a virgin so she allows men to. . .well even though we are all adults here let's just say "enjoy her in other ways".


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## greg273

watcher said:


> A dozen recons for a single op isn't a lot more than necessary. In this case he'd have to learn the locations of any security, he'd want to know where the emergency exits were and if they could be blocked/jammed, he'd want to know when the most people would be there, he'd want to know the layout to plan his attack path, he'd want to know when there would be the most people there, etc., etc. And its good opsec to have your targets think you are one of them. If he was known to the armed guard that would have caused at least a moment's confusion in the guard's mind which could have been fatal.


 Or he could have just been a closeted, confused, self-loathing gay dude who happened to be muslim. His true reasons for the attack are probably a mixture of jihad and self-loathing.
I guess the gay dating apps on his phone were for 'recon' also. And the guy who says he hit on him at school, recon. Uh huh.


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## vicker

I think it should be clear that he was just a typical mass shooter. He may have claimed otherwise, but he was just a typical mass shooter, troubled, violent with his family, grudging comments to his coworkers... It was a senseless mass murder. Y'all ain't going to make sense of it.


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## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> Saying you support something isn't illegal but if the police believe you really support some illegal thing it *they can legally run a covert op *and put an agent in contact with you to provide a conduit for you to take action on your support.
> 
> If you state you want to kill a bunch of gays because your religion says you must a LEA could have someone befriend you, tell you he hates gays and when you tell him you want to kill a bunch he can LEGALLY offer to obtain the tools necessary for you to do so. As soon as you take control of the tools he can arrest you and the courts would reject all your pleas of entrapment.
> 
> There was enough PC for the feds to investigate him once. Then when he was reported again they didn't say "Well we've already checked into this guy and his OK, there's no need to waste time checking him again." They spent the time and money to investigated him a second time. To me that says in the first investigation they didn't find anything which would meet the requirement for an arrest there was enough there to make them want to see if they could find something if they looked again.


They *did* that.
Go back to Post # 474

You're not reading what's been posted, and you're still saying the same thing in all your posts


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## mreynolds

vicker said:


> I think it should be clear that he was just a typical mass shooter. He may have claimed otherwise, but he was just a typical mass shooter, troubled, violent with his family, grudging comments to his coworkers... It was a senseless mass murder. Y'all ain't going to make sense of it.


I agree Vicker. There is no rhyme or reason for this. Some people do things because they are unhinged and just need a reason to act. 

Maybe he was in_ total_ cahoots with ISIS. Maybe it was an _excuse_ is all. Who really knows?


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## 7thswan

From a Brit about what is happening there, soon to come here, except we still have the 2nd .https://player.vimeo.com/video/167607521


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## watcher

Bearfootfarm said:


> They *did* that.
> Go back to Post # 474
> 
> You're not reading what's been posted, and you're still saying the same thing in all your posts


No, trying to get him to talk to a court house snitch is NOT the same as running an undercover op on him. Do you think the feds could build a case on a Cosa Nostra member by getting him to talk to a court house snitch?


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## Bearfootfarm

watcher said:


> No, trying to get him to talk to a court house snitch is NOT the same as running an undercover op on him. Do you think the feds could build a case on a Cosa Nostra member by getting him to talk to a court house snitch?


They did exactly what you wanted, and now you're just complaining about their methods.

Face the fact he committed no crimes they could prove before the shooting

(Howdy Peach!!)


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