# Does anyone prep for very long term breakdown of society?



## candyknitter (Apr 23, 2009)

I look on many prepping sites and read about great preps and recommended purchases. Lots of people are already pretty self sufficient and living off the grid.
I'm wondering if people ever prepare for if there was a very long shtf event, one or several decades?
Generators and vehicles still need fuel, some prep items require batteries, guns need ammo. I'm wondering about how people can prep once these things are unavailable and your own store of them has run out?
I'm guessing a good supply of wood growing on the land will be needed for heat, and candles can be made from rendered animal fat. Hunting would be possible by trapping or crossbows. Transport would rely on a horse!
It sounds like going back to frontier days, but back then people relied on their community and good neighbours. I don't know how many would be able to do that now. 
Do you have any plans that include this scenario or is it too unlikely for you to consider? If you do prep for it what advice on forward planning would you give?


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

Rechargable batteries with a solar charger solves that potential problem. Many who prep for long term situations have the knowledge/equipment/skills to make alternative fuel for at least the tractor and possible the gennie, i.e. wood alcohol comes to mind 1st. As for food stuffs, most seem to be storing enough to get through the 1st good harvest on their property - that will basically replace/renew the stored foods from then on. THe long term prepping is looked at as a way to keep going with as little stress as possible and give breathing room to be able to solve other problems over time. But long term prepping is not just something one does, it is basically a lifestyle to be lived. Prep so one does not notice much difference in daily life when "bad" incidents happen or the power goes off - just go to Plan B and keep on living.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

If it gets as bad as you propose (the OP) I wouldn't worry to much as life will be short, especially for those isolated homesteads with a lot of stored goods.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes, I'm a Homesteader,not really a "prepper". So I prep for each season,and the one after that,and the one after that....


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I have always considered my prep supplies as a tool that would allow me the luxury of a smoother transition from my current lifestyle to a long term, completely self sufficient lifestyle.

So, for example, I try to keep enough food in storage to last me for at least 2 growing seasons. That should give me enough time to increase my garden to subsistence levels, also my livestock and other food sources. I have worked to find as many hand tools and a few animal powered ones as possible because although I have a nice tractor and rototiller for now, when gas supplies are gone, so will much of their usefulness.

In my opinion, I am thinking about a late 1700 style existence. I am looking for things that have an indefinite shelf life and that would have made life back then much easier. If that time/the need never comes, it doesn't matter because I am having fun with it now. I am teaching a 4-H Living History group and we are playing with many of these things every week. I am having fun learning how to do this lifestyle and gathering the required bits and pieces as needed. If civilization falls, I will be fairly well equipped.


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## SupermansBabe (Aug 29, 2013)

We aren't off grid, but we have lived a homesteading lifestyle for 20+ years. Learned a long time ago that if you have a particularly good harvest on something you keep canning/preserving because the next year may not be anything to brag about.

Due to a near fatal illness in the spring and still recuperating, I had no garden this year. We are living off the extra from previous years.

This has been a tremendous year for nut harvest in our area. I've got enough hickory nuts already in the freezer for years of baked goods and just waiting on the walnuts spread in the driveway to dry. I will have a busy winter cracking and picking.

The kids have gathered bucket after bucket of acorns to be smashed for supplemental chicken feed this winter. Nuts are like everything else, they go in cycles.

I did manage to get a partial fall garden in with more tender crops under cover. You grow what you can, when you can. You also learn to pick up antique tools when you come across them. Still some great bargains out there.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

The op is in London England , people have been surviving there for thousands of years while we have only been working on it for a couple hundred ,we should be asking him questions ?


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## candyknitter (Apr 23, 2009)

goatlady said:


> Rechargable batteries with a solar charger solves that potential problem. Many who prep for long term situations have the knowledge/equipment/skills to make alternative fuel for at least the tractor and possible the gennie, i.e. wood alcohol comes to mind 1st.


I had never heard of wood alcohol before, that's very interesting thanks.



Grumpy old man said:


> The op is in London England , people have been surviving there for thousands of years while we have only been working on it for a couple hundred ,we should be asking him questions ?


Unfortunately the modern world has made us dependent on shiny new things, the old skill are all but lost!


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Explorer said:


> If it gets as bad as you propose (the OP) I wouldn't worry to much as life will be short, especially for those isolated homesteads with a lot of stored goods.


How so you figure :duel: We are way out of town in a concrete house with a steel roof .Have a great view from up stairs big Germanshepard and lots of ammo.All i like is a little razor wire and folks won't get in easy . :awh:


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

I've given this a fair amount of thought. Some of those old skills haven't died out in my household... so we look for hard times lasting at least 10 years. Maybe 20, before some semblance of how we define (now) basics of civilization are re-established. Hubs has skills I don't have and many choices of solutions are collaborations between our skill sets.

We can't say with any accuracy what hard times are going to look like. I'd say, in the US, the last 5 years have been unusually hard for a large majority of people already. Unfamiliar making do and doing without - for some families - is a brand new experience. Others of us have been dealing with this all our lives.

It's the wide availability of services that we take for granted disappearing, that will mark for most people, when SHTF. We may see a time when electricity is still available, but intermittent. Maybe it will be on part of the week, not all. the US has seen gas rationing as recently as the 70s. that could return. And Europe and the US still have stories about food rationing during the war.

That kind of extended hard times is very survivable. People do cooperate and help each other out still. But add in lawlessness or a breakdown in the rule of law or war... and that's a layer of misery that will only make surviving extremely more difficult. I'm not uncomfortable without electricity, even for an extended length of time. But we all depend on fuels - nat gas, propane, or gasoline/diesel - indirectly, for so many things. We are accustomed to buying manufactured goods. Manufacturing will be more vulnerable than our homes, initially. It does spread, though.

Making shoes of various kinds, is on my list to try. I sew pretty well. I'm pretty good building in wood and designing furniture. Metal work and welding is high on my list, too. And I have years of experience growing things, preserving, and medicinal herbal healing. Lots more to learn!!  But, my past 50+ years has given me a good foundation of knowledge and skills for what's coming. 

Maybe not enough, but I'm not overly concerned about anything except war.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

We have been living a pretty much late 1700-1800 lifestyle for the past 14 years. There's always things to learn so we we keep our eyes and ears open. Its sad to think that this way of life might be the only way to survive, due to the current and/or unforeseen antics of the government, economy, etc.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

We prep for the long term. Everything not in one place, and in many cases backups to backups. We've made relationships with some pretty crusty oldtimers here, and their large families who live fairly close by. Not necessarily confident, but we have reason to believe we'll be fine.

One thing I might mention, if you're storing staples you're going to need spices to keep them from getting boring. Prices at the stores are outrageous for just a couple ounces. We buy by the pound from http://www.bulkfoods.com/default.asp repackaged and stored with o2 absorbers they'll keep a long time.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

candyknitter said:


> Hunting would be possible by trapping or crossbows.


I doubt it.

In the "Great Depression", when the US population was about 1/3 of today, the whitetail deer was hunted to near extinction east of the Mississippi in a few short years.

Given the NEXT economic collapse is probably going to be far worse, and a hungry population far greater, I would not include any hunting of any wild critter in long term plans for at least a generation out....because the woods will be emptied of nearly everything that walks, crawls or flies.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

It has been 45 years so far....James


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Ozarks Tom said:


> We prep for the long term. Everything not in one place, and in many cases backups to backups. We've made relationships with some pretty crusty oldtimers here, and their large families who live fairly close by. Not necessarily confident, but we have reason to believe we'll be fine.
> 
> One thing I might mention, if you're storing staples you're going to need spices to keep them from getting boring. Prices at the stores are outrageous for just a couple ounces. We buy by the pound from http://www.bulkfoods.com/default.asp repackaged and stored with o2 absorbers they'll keep a long time.


better yet grow a few perenial herbs, garlic, onions and have seeds for hot peppers.
having garlic, dill and hot peppers to pickle vegetables growing in the garden already helps. a good supply of canning, sea or kosher salt is handy.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

And a sad part of those trigger happy bozzo's is the waste that will happen because 'they' wont have the means to preserve whats left, after the first meal or two......

Then even more dangerous will be bozzo's attitude when he finally realizes that there just ain't any more 4 legged deer to shoot........


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

The long term is what we should all be working on. We are trying to find ways to maintain our current lifestyle if this were to happen. If it doesn't GOOD we still had fun being ready. Its pretty neat to go in to town after a few days at home and find out everyone else is without power. It was only a few days after a storm a couple years ago but people were crazy. More than two - three weeks would start making things harder on us as our power system uses gas to recharge. We do have some solar and if we did without everything but the fridge solar would handle that. What most people with off grid systems don't seem to realize is in a few years they are going to need parts. Batteries and panels do wear out. So does anything else. After 5 years we just replaced part of our battery bank. So I guess what I am saying is supply plenty of expendables. If you always have access then use as needed and rotate your stock. 

If you are really worried about long term here are a few items you may want to have on hand. Cases of oil, barrels of gas or diesel, filters, plugs, glow plugs. Thats just the tip of the iceburg but you get the idea. Most of us will find a way to keep enough fuel for chainsaws but do you have enough chain for a lifetime? I buy 2 stroke mix by the gallon not only is it a LOT cheaper but lasts 3 - 5 years for us. Get the things you can't make or do without, then just rotate your stock. For example I pulled out a brick of .22 the other day that had a $4.95 price tag. Now I need to get another brick to replace them. Its not that I am out its just I like to have X boxes on hand just in case. 



Ramble :soap: 

Larry
A World Away

PS. Salt is a main must have item everyone has to have salt to live.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Ozarks Tom said:


> We prep for the long term. Everything not in one place, and in many cases backups to backups. We've made relationships with some pretty crusty oldtimers here, and their large families who live fairly close by. Not necessarily confident, but we have reason to believe we'll be fine.
> 
> One thing I might mention, if you're storing staples you're going to need spices to keep them from getting boring. Prices at the stores are outrageous for just a couple ounces. We buy by the pound from http://www.bulkfoods.com/default.asp repackaged and stored with o2 absorbers they'll keep a long time.


 
Ozarks Tom; We like you plan ahead for the long term. Everyone knows we store food both by preserving and in cold storage. In the event of a crisis I am fully aware we might be targeted. So we already decided we would willingly give to those who would otherwise take anyway. When times are hard people often turn on eachother and steal and don't care who they hurt in the process. So the obvious stores are from year to year unless there is a bumper crop of something that lasts over two years.

You are wise to have a back up plan for survival. Even when the obvious stores of food are gone if a person has been planning ahead they could have a backup of dehydrated food. Dehydrated food last for years and takes little room to store. No one needs to know about the extra cache. You mentioned herbs and spices also which is a good idea. 

Another thing a person can do is learn is which plants that grow wild are edible in the area where they live. Also before a worse crisis happens save seeds from open pollinated plants when you plant a garden. Seeds also keep for years if dried properly. 

Learning how to use hand tools and how to cook and bake without electricity is necessary for survival too. A person can collect tools and other things without drawing attention to themselves and will be prepared for what ever situation arises. There may not always be gasoline available or batteries to run things. A few simple hands tools is all that is needed to garden on a small scale. Candles, solar and crank lights and radios are also useful. 

Getting right down to the nitty gritty it does not take a lot of things to be able to live comfortably without modern conveniences. But it does take planning ahead and learning self sufficient skills and knowedge about plants and animals.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

candyknitter said:


> ..... a very long shtf event, one or several decades?
> 
> Generators and vehicles still need fuel, some prep items require batteries, guns need ammo. I'm wondering about how people can prep once these things are unavailable and your own store of them has run out?
> 
> ...


I think you've gotten a few good suggestions for a really short term SHTF, but I'd like to add my 2 bits worth of realistic devil's advocacy for if you're talking about a really long term shtf event where there's a breakdown of civilization and you have to rely on your own resources.

Thinking in terms of frontier days isn't going back far enough. Go back several thousand years ago to times before people used fossil fuels, when there were no inventions that required batteries or generators, there was no such thing as firearms, and no such thing as candles, and nobody was wealthy or knowledgeable enough to keep expensive animals like horses for transportation.

Candles actually didn't exist until just about 1,600 years ago and even when candles were first invented and for centuries afterwards they were a luxury item used only by wealthy churches and the very wealthiest of nobility. That's because candles are wasteful of material and too cost prohibitive in time and natural resources. So forget making candles because you won't have enough of the necessary resources and materials, and you can't make candles out of rendered animal fats anyway. You need *wax* .... bees wax or paraffin wax .... to make candles. Besides which, rendered animal fats will be in very short supply and are far more essential as an important food resource and food preservative. Before the invention of candles, for many thousands of years B.C. and right up until about 400 years ago the majority of people used *oil lamps.* Oil lamps from the most primitive to the most sophisticated designs are safer and easier to make out of a variety of natural resources and the oils used in them can also be derived from a larger variety of natural resources including plant and nut oils, mineral oils, fish oils _and_ rendered animal fats.

Regarding hunting - well in this day and age nobody would survive long if they relied on hunting because in a long term shtf all animals (including birds, fish and marine animals) would disappear real quick from being hunted out by humans. There are too many people (7 billion soon to be 8 billion) who would all have the same idea. The same thing applied even thousands of years ago, wild animals were not readily available to hunt because of increasing human populations so humans were forced to start breeding and raising their own domesticated herds and flocks of livestock. That is what you will have to do too. Raise your own domestic meat if you want to eat meat. It will probably require a cooperative community effort to do that and to protect the herds, just like it did in the past and still does now.

As to relying on horses for transport - in the given scenario that will work only if you are very wealthy and powerful and can afford to buy and care for horses and have the property and human resources to protect the horses from other people who will want to steal and eat them. Anyone who is not wealthy and doesn't have a lot of human resources at their personal disposal will have to rely on the same transportation that people did only a few hundred years ago. That would be Shanks Mare (your own two feet) and maybe transport other items besides yourself by pushing or pulling a wagon or barrow ..... or using boats for transportation and that means there's a different sort of skill sets and knowledge required for making boats.

In summary, what I'm saying here is if you want to survive in a future where there's a very long term shtf scenario you will first need to learn skills from the very distant past. Forget about luxuries like fossil fuels, chain saws, generators and batteries.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

My longest term prep is in my mind. I know I am a soft target and that my chances of hanging on to anything I have is remote in the extreme if anyone chose to take it. Add to that a few disastrous years financially and my physical preps are depleted to say the least (although I am rebuilding bit by bit). Along the way I have learnt that what is in my head they can't take - knowledge is my best prep. No-one can take it away and it makes me useful if I needed a larger group.

rushlights are another form of light IF you can get hold of the rushes to make them with. They are very economical to make but don't give out a HUGE amount of light. People would go back to sleeping when it got dark! Or gathering around the fireplace, which people would have to relearn the art of having an economical fire - we tend to have very fuel heavy fires!

People will end up eating things they never dreamt of - peasants in Italy used to trap sparrows for food by putting a form of glue on the branches which the birds would stick to - gypsies used to eat hedgehog! 

It would depend largely on how sudden and catastrophic it was - if it was a sudden event then people would react dramatically and there would be less chance of a reasoned response. If it was a slow descent, then people would adapt (look at WWII, people found ways to cope.

But the knowledge in your head is a far more important prep than anything you may have in your cupboard.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

I hear a lot of folks say that the deer would be hunted out. But hunters know they can't take ALL the deer, if they want another season. And the REST of people, simply have never hunted. They'll stop wasting ammo, if they're not immediately successful.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I too would not count on hunting for more than 1-2 years.

I do think that many MANY people will succumb to chronic/acute illness and suicide in short order. 

Knowledge is key. A strong back is also favorable.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

and you can't make candles out of rendered animal fats anyway 

Tallow from cattle and sheep.....wicks dipped in it over and over again......I thought that qualified as a candle

In a truly shtf setting, animal fat would be easier to produce than vegetable oils.....takes alot of power to plow, plant, and process....never rwealyy thought about it but I suppose thats one benefit of olive trees.....plant once and gather for decades, and graze your sheep in your groves


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

plowhand said:


> and you can't make candles out of rendered animal fats anyway
> 
> Tallow from cattle and sheep.....wicks dipped in it over and over again......I thought that qualified as a candle
> 
> In a truly shtf setting, animal fat would be easier to produce than vegetable oils.....takes alot of power to plow, plant, and process....never rwealyy thought about it but I suppose thats one benefit of olive trees.....plant once and gather for decades, and graze your sheep in your groves


No. Tallow on its own is too soft and maleable, it won't get hard enough when it's cooled and the slightest bit of warmth near it will cause it to melt into a pool of oil. So it is good for oil lamps. To use it for candles it has to have additives of one kind or another in it to harden it firmly so that it will hold it's shape for storage even in warm weather and to stand upright in a candle holder without collapsing or folding up on itself. 

There are many recipes for tallow candles but they all require other additives that may not be so easy to come by from scratch or to manufacture. Some of the additives that may be used in various proportions include stearic acid, camphor, bees wax or white paraffin wax, alum, gum damar, sugar of lead, lye, saltpetre, resins, turpentine.

The easiest recipe for tallow candles that will hold their shape would be a combination of tallow and melted tree resin at a 4:1 ratio and poured into moulds, not dipped. This will make a hardened candle with a bright flaring white flame, but it will burn down extremely quickly so it must be used judiciously.


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## gravelroad (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm a homesteader.

I have been all most off grid for 21 years. We have cable for high speed internet and when my in-laws moved in they got satellite so they could watch TV. We have about 4,500' of fiber that brings the internet from the road to our house.

Currently we spend about $60 a month on flour, sugar, paper products, and cleaning supplies for 9 people. We have ground our own grains before and have the stuff on hand to do it, but with 9 people it's a pain in the but. We have bee's and use a lot of the honey for sugar, but still bake a lot with sugar.

My biggest issue would theft.

To me the true test is to see how much trash a house hold makes in in a month. With 9 people we all most fill a plastic grocery bag.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I think knowing how to survive beats a year or two of storage. Not that we don't have stores. Over the years we have learned how to garden and what to garden. Most people stop at tomatoes, cukes, and green beans. In a shtf situation, I am at least partially prepared. We built our present home and only have to pay taxes and utilities. This year we bought our retirement home and are fixing it up for a life of arthritis and poor health. It needed a new roof and we went straight for standing seam. We have two city lots and I am planning a subtle life sustaining landscape with hickory nuts, sunchokes, etc. I'll be planting amaranth this year in the form of love-lies-bleeding, which nobody will know is a high nutrient seed. We already know that with a cover, we can grow spinach until Christmas and kale most of the year. We've already grown blue and purple potatoes and gone through that learning curve. Our new town has it's own generator so power outages last minutes, not days or weeks. At the point that the town can't generate electricity, we will all be well warned and be making other plans. Electricity it important because we buy our meat on the hoof and freeze vegetables from the garden. I'm sure we could get a generator and keep it going through the first summer and winter. After that, we would make other arrangements. For instance to buy on the hoof and use winter to freeze the meat, then minimizing the amount of meat we eat and go to seeds, nuts, and dairy for our protein.

I can spin, knit, and sew. I'm a good teacher and can teach others.


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## picklehopper (Sep 18, 2013)

I hope if all poo breaks loose, that we dont have to depend on the government for anything. If it ends up "long term" I wish you all the best and the wisdom to make it through.

Not everybody will require the same things to survive. While some will have to have power for medical machines etc that keep them alive at home, the majority of us could actually live in the woods if we had food (not that we ever would want to). With that in mind, put your mindset "in the woods" before making a plan maybe. Think of what you absolutely need to survive. 

I have given this topic a lot of thought over the past few weeks more than ever. There is so much to consider if worst comes to worst. What, when and where to store. This isn't just for my own family but for the people I may need to barter with to survive. While I don't want to be stuck with something I wont use/need, there is always that one item I could use if I had to but I know others would relish and appreciate to barter for. Coffee for example will probably barter well. You think you can live without it? If you are suddenly forced to stop cold turkey, there are some incredible withdrawls that can occur. Not everybody is effected but I am. That's why I don't drink coffee much now. I do however see it as a good bartering tool that again I wouldn't mind being stuck with. Cigarettes however, even though they may be a good barter tool, I would never store because I would never have a use for them if I couldn't trade them. I might stock up on medical supplies, seeds, needle and thread etc. Whatever we do, we shouldn't stock up on things that wont benefit us if we end stuck with it.

Also we need to make a plan to store in several places if possible and barter out of a minimal pantry space. The idea is to let people think that we are in the same boat and that we are willing to barter what little we have. When they are gone, you can restock.
Never let anyone know you have much.

It is important that I be a "producer". A producer is someone who can offer/produce goods and services that people will need. I am wanting goats because they can forage and require little supplementation compared to other livestock. They produce 1-3 kids at a time and produce milk, that can make cheese and butter. They are also a great meat source. I am also wanting heritage chickens that prefer to forage for bugs and seeds and require little or no extra feed but love the kitchen scraps. Then I will have meat and eggs. Seeds are important because we need to be able to grow food to eat or barter with if you are too picky for vegetables (you wont be for long). I realize this isnt possible for everybody but most city ordinances allow at least 1 fowl per house. And if you live in an apartment, vertical gardening can make even a small balcony/patio profitable for trade. Work as hard as you can with what you have. Build a solar oven and invest in a good cast iron dutch oven with a lid. 

If people are willing to work at it and sacrafice a little, they should be able to survive right?


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Prep for forever. That will almost certainly make surviving anything shorter much easier. However I don't feel that we would fall all the way down to a subsistence living. Barring some truly horrific sets of circumstances we would almost certainly come back up to a 19th century level of tech fairly quickly. Some form of commerce would quickly start up shortly after almost any kind of disaster. Getting back to a level of tech equal to that we have might take time but at most 20-30 years. This is barring all out nuclear war. That might truly bring us down and keep us there but even that is not likely. Half the battle is knowing that it can be done. We've already done that.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

I am paid as a consultant with my expertise if you call it that is how to deal with a problem with what is on hand.
Here is your main problems.
1. You have done everything right and have what you need, are you able to keep it. If a band of 10 well armed and trained comes to get what you have you probably are defeated.
A.Being invisible to the community is one of the ways that is a solution to that. 
B. Banding together for protection is another, this is what happened in the colonial times and worked unless there were larger bands
2. If there is a government , which I expect there will be then the problem is that the government will want to collect all supplies for the good of the community, This has happened in all wars and disasters. Solution A probably would be good. 
I could go on but I think I have made the point. What I am doing for my family is a lot of Solution A with having the tools for rebuilding. I am in the middle of research and designing an invert style of a gasifier. When there is a problem I can switch our life to the same life (Minus Sesame street) and be up and running. 
I run and own a Sawmill that I hope will be important to the life of the community around the area that hurting my family is a bad thing. Having staples and homestead items are very important the the solution.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

FYI - hubs just showed me a sale on Amazon, of Lodge cast iron. This set consists of the dutch oven, 2 skillets, and a griddle. I think it was about $65. With care, cast iron will last a lifetime, doesn't attract attention, and can be used to cook on almost anything - from an open wood fire, to grill, and traditional range/oven.

It's like the perfect combination of durability, ease of care/use, and essential function. It's only drawback is it's weight - it's only "portable" with a vehicle!! LOL.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

I guess we do prep for the long term, but it has been that way in our family as far back as I can remember. Large family, we live close enough to work together. We as a group try to acquire skills that are useful to our survivability. Lots of old skills in the group which are being passed to the youngsters, redundancy in key skills is important. 

Preps yes, for the long term yes. We live in a very isolated area and most have been here for a very long time. So understanding the area when it comes to sufficiency is ingrained.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

candyknitter said:


> I look on many prepping sites and read about great preps and recommended purchases. Lots of people are already pretty self sufficient and living off the grid.
> I'm wondering if people ever prepare for if there was a very long shtf event, one or several decades?
> Generators and vehicles still need fuel, some prep items require batteries, guns need ammo. I'm wondering about how people can prep once these things are unavailable and your own store of them has run out?
> I'm guessing a good supply of wood growing on the land will be needed for heat, and candles can be made from rendered animal fat. Hunting would be possible by trapping or crossbows. Transport would rely on a horse!
> ...


Scenarios as that are not of a real concern as after any noteworthy fan hit and the following anarchism a new version of social structure of some type takes hold.

Take the evolution, devolution , re-evolution of Cuba as an example
In the last 70 years.

It went from an American supported resort and agricultural nation to a embargo depressed Soviet agricultural third world communit existence to a non superpower yet small communist dictated organic resource nation to the European and Canadian vacation paradise that our nation shields us from seeing due to the continuing U.S. embargo and dictatorship.

During the 1990s some organic farming organizations highlighted how Cuba had turned to organic fertilizers to support their agriculture in the absence of the Soviet support yet our government only chose to show us the depressed Havana image of folks driving rebuilt 1950s era U.S. cars.

Even now our view of Cuba is restricted to that of the continuing evil communist dictatorial environment and U.S. presence in Guantanamo Bay , not the developed resort areas on the other side of the island that draws in European and Canadian tourist income and the resort construction is actually endangering the sea tortoise habitats as more hotels are built to fund the Cuban nation and communist regime still in control nearly 60 years later.

It is still an "us and them" political hit the fan situation less than 100 miles off our territorial waters but their political environment has survived the fan hit began by Fidel and intensified by JFK and every administration since as the continuing Cuban regime continues to oppress its population and free enterprise.

PBS globetrekker although pretty far left often helps fill the holes in the news reports the mainstream media offers us. :shrug:


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

My dh came from Cuba, still has family there. Yes, its still communist, but they have health care, education, drive those old cars. They have learned to do alot. Also, Cuba is very beautiful in areas, my dh remembers good and bad about Cuba. A lot has changed there in 40 years.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

sand flea said:


> I hear a lot of folks say that the deer would be hunted out. But hunters know they can't take ALL the deer, if they want another season. And the REST of people, simply have never hunted. They'll stop wasting ammo, if they're not immediately successful.


You'd be amazed how many 'good ol boys' entire prep is based upon the song, "A Country Boy Will Survive".

"Hunters" 'know' about leaving breeding stock, but in the face of starvation (their starving children) they'll take every animal they can find... and, with a spotlight, it's terribly easy to take them all.

Hunting isn't necessary to kill deer... a car/truck light, or spot light, and any rifle, and anyone can 'jack' deer.

Anyone planning on hunting for their food had best hope everyone else on the planet dies quickly...


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Texican, I always thought that if things got that bad, that we could domesticate and breed the deer... but then, I have different ideas, sometimes.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

Maybe we should try to domesticate politicians but not breed them.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

sand flea said:


> Texican, I always thought that if things got that bad, that we could domesticate and breed the deer... but then, I have different ideas, sometimes.


Nothing different about that idea, people have been keeping deer farms in Europe for centuries but it's only become popular in North America in recent decades. Deer farming is common now in Canada, particularly in the provinces of B.C., Alberta and Ontario. There's a successful deer farm a couple of miles away from my own home. It's also common in New Zealand and there's around 2,000 deer farms in tiny little New Zealand. 

If you're interested and want more information about the feasibility and 'how to' of running a deer farm here are some links about the North American Deer Farmers Association, this covers deer ranching in USA and Canada: 

http://www.nadefa.org/

http://www.agmrc.org/commodities__products/livestock/deer-venison-ranching/


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

sand flea, a good thought, but thinking it further out, how nice for hunters to be able to be on your fence line and be able to harvest your herd of deer! Same with any pasture animal, in a SHTF situation you MUST be able to protect your resources from others.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

goatlady said:


> sand flea, a good thought, but thinking it further out, how nice for hunters to be able to be on your fence line and be able to harvest your herd of deer! Same with any pasture animal, in a SHTF situation you MUST be able to protect your resources from others.


What do you mean SHTF situation?

You've got to be able to protect your resources from others TODAY. Whether it's meth-heads or the government.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

I'm not worried about a total breakdown in civilization..IMO if that were to happen then smaller areas would communicate and join forces to establish some rule of law. Sort of like frontier justice..steal a hog we hang ya. We might appoint some trusted people to keep the peace in our localities. Round up a posse if they need more guns. Trade would still go on, in fact even more robustly without government regulation, taxes and restrictions.

People are civil because it is in our mutual individual interests to be that way. The only thing that might change that would be a war or a disease or some radical climate change.

I do see a prolonged depression as a very real possibility, a currency collapse maybe.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Twobottom said:


> I'm not worried about a total breakdown in civilization..IMO if that were to happen then smaller areas would communicate and join forces to establish some rule of law. Sort of like frontier justice..steal a hog we hang ya. We might appoint some trusted people to keep the peace in our localities. Round up a posse if they need more guns. Trade would still go on, in fact even more robustly without government regulation, taxes and restrictions.
> 
> People are civil because it is in our mutual individual interests to be that way. The only thing that might change that would be a war or a disease or some radical climate change.
> 
> I do see a prolonged depression as a very real possibility, a currency collapse maybe.


The problem I see with that is that those small communities will be run by the same sorts of mentalities who tell you how tall your grass can be, what you can sell at your yard sale (and how often), and where you can park your car.

Think of a Homeowner's Association with guns and no accountability.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes Linda 98% of all those polliticians belong in an encampment in circled with razor wire.

It is all the Hot Air from said polliticians that is causing "Global Warming".........


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Ernie said:


> The problem I see with that is that those small communities will be run by the same sorts of mentalities who tell you how tall your grass can be, what you can sell at your yard sale (and how often), and where you can park your car.
> 
> Think of a Homeowner's Association with guns and no accountability.



Well they already have guns and a very organized system of enforcement/oppression. In a SHTF scenario I would think that a break up of those institutions can only be for the betterment of all. And shifting the focus from draining the taxpayers at gunpoint, to getting enough food to survive might just bring out the best in them.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Twobottom said:


> Well they already have guns and a very organized system of enforcement/oppression. In a SHTF scenario I would think that a break up of those institutions can only be for the betterment of all. And shifting the focus from draining the taxpayers at gunpoint, to getting enough food to survive might just bring out the best in them.


That bunch in power now will under the guise of helping others will use their guns to take your goods and keep it for them self's :hobbyhors 

Same as now :shrug:


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

As for security, since I don't know what, why or where I'd need it - yet - I try not to make any claims about what I will/won't do, when I need to. OPSEC and all that... LOL! I have however, thought through how I would defend my neighborhood in WROL situation. We have a social club among the neighbors and there are quite a few like-minded folks with a wealth of useful experience and skills for a long term situation. We could pull together a pretty good team, pretty quickly... and our natural environment is conducive to being able to defend ourselves. One reason I chose this place, in fact - it wasn't an accident!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

sand flea said:


> Texican, I always thought that if things got that bad, that we could domesticate and breed the deer... but then, I have different ideas, sometimes.


Already been done... most of us call them 'goats'. They can eat the same things... Get em naked and they're pretty much alike.

Goats give milk, lots of it, for the amount they eat.

Trouble with wild stock of live stock, is there are starving people who would kill to get that stock... More difficult guarding wild game than livestock you live with. If the end came, our goats wouldn't go out grazing, without an armed shepherd(ess)...


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

texican said:


> Already been done... most of us call them 'goats'. They can eat the same things... Get em naked and they're pretty much alike.
> 
> Goats give milk, lots of it, for the amount they eat.
> 
> Trouble with wild stock of live stock, is there are starving people who would kill to get that stock... More difficult guarding wild game than livestock you live with. If the end came, our goats wouldn't go out grazing, without an armed shepherd(ess)...


And if the worst came to the absolute worst, goats "can" live in the house with you. The Golden Guernsey breed of goat only survived WWII because people took them into their houses at night to protect them. I read about one lady who had the does tethered on the staircase and all the kids in the bathroom


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Think of a Homeowner's Association with guns and no accountability. 

I might be callous and hard hearted, but I can't help but think that people that put themselves willingly under such a thing as a Homeowners association deserve what ever they get.......what ever happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...
I still can't beleive there are places within a few minutes of my farm....where you can't park a $70,000 pickup in the drive way....but you can a danged ole yugo


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> Yes Linda 98% of all those polliticians belong in an encampment in circled with razor wire.
> 
> It is all the Hot Air from said polliticians that is causing "Global Warming".........


Sounds reasonable....don't it!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

plowhand said:


> Think of a Homeowner's Association with guns and no accountability.
> 
> I might be callous and hard hearted, but I can't help but think that people that put themselves willingly under such a thing as a Homeowners association deserve what ever they get.......what ever happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...
> I still can't beleive there are places within a few minutes of my farm....where you can't park a $70,000 pickup in the drive way....but you can a danged ole yugo


Now imagine that Homeowner's Association driving up and down the roads, looking for things that need "donating".


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

I don't think they'd like what most folks round here would be willing to donate.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I have no problem living 1800's style. I started doing it for reenacting, continued doing it cause I live at the end of the grid where I'm the last person to get power restored when it goes out. I'm used to going a week or two without power. I'm so used to it that it's as normal for me to live without it as it is with it.

Other things like invaders, mass illness, etc. would take some adjustments. 

Worst scenario... I join my ancestors in the afterlife. It WILL happen sooner or later. I leave the timing to a higher power.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

I see far too much written on forums about buying and storing things, and not much about PRODUCING things you need. Long term preparedness requires that we produce SOMETHING, unless we have unlimited wealth ahead of time, and even that is limited by storage life of many things. 

Anyone who thinks about this very much comes to realize that no individual can live very well for very long without help. People figured that out thousands of years ago and learned to live together for mutual benefit. The needs that caused people to cooperate in ancient times have not changed. We benefit from the division of labor and specialization as being more productive, then trade ensues. 

Why do preppers seem to forget this? It has to be fear. Fear of not knowing enough people they can trust to live together in a community. The FIRST prep of all needs to be finding that community. All the rest can come later. Security is not found by force of arms, but in large numbers of committed like-minded people. 

No community is perfect, but some are much less perfect than others, so seek the best you can find and build from there. 

In a societal breakdown, I too envision a period without rule of law, but I expect that will be comparatively short. Those who live through it will go right back to living together in communities, and the sooner the better. 

Then, we get back into what is possible with what is left? It depends, like someone else said, on how far we fall. Without grid power and fossil fuels, we would see a die-off estimated at 90% or more by some. That puts us back to a lifestyle of somewhere around the mid-1800's as being optimistic. 

If we learn what is required for that ahead of time, we will be ahead of the game. Learn some skill that will be in demand and tradable, and that you can be productive doing it.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

I think we all need to pray that the electric grid never, ever goes down. Not just for what it would mean to our society, but because that would mean the nuke plants in the country would probably fail, eventually, and the aftermath of that is just about unthinkable. Consider what happened at Fukushima, times 110, or whatever we have in the US now. Bad news, indeed. 

Even with the grid working, something as relatively benign as a currency collapse would wreak havoc. I have given that some thought, and written a fiction tale about it. Long term survival by average people in that situation was what I tried to address in the story. If you are interested, it is posted on a free amateur authors board. Just click and read. It is a full length novel, so be advised of that. 
http://pawfiction.proboards.com/thread/410/bottom


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

I read that on another forum just last week, it was a good read. I just hope the nation never face such a situation. I'm not real optimistic due to religious teaching, economics, and general common sense.
As to preparing long term.....people used to do it, called it planning ahead, big families, even to preparing coffins and burial clothes years ahead. Where money in the bank has become security......a filled smoke house, corn crib,livestock, work stock, wood lot, common sense and faith. People could live without spending a lot of money, and there was always some job that needed doing. 
Just think how much it used to take to wash clothes. An axe, crosscut saw, wash pot, couple of tubs, a wash board, or battling sticks and bench. I have bought 3 new washers and 2 dryers in the last 15 years, I don't know how much eletricity we've used...and I still hang out clothes! Grandma's wash pots are still usable, probably 90 to 100 years old, cross cut and axes wear out, but got some awfully old usable ones, still got wash boards..with heavy glass scrub boards in them, wash tubs too!
I'm not recomending giving up the Maytag, but I do ask how much freedom and security we have given up for our ease and current lifestyles. Dependence on anything that has to be delivered frequently, semi-frequently, even monthly is a newer notion in most parts of rural America. It may get us into trouble someday!


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

I'm going to toss in my recommendation to read Machinist's stories if you're interested in the how-tos of trying to survive a long-term crisis and what that situation might look like. The best thing about his stories, are the simple human goodness, hope and ingenuity in how his characters cope. Kind of takes the big, scary unknown... and brings it down to a human scale, an everyday level. The stories teach, without being "preachy".  I'm a big fan!

Gasoline, diesel, and electricity may/may not become scarce in the future... but one thing for sure: the cost of each of these will go up as a proportion of our "take home pay". The American people are kind of "under siege" from all directions right now... and trying to find ways to reduce our living expenses, means more of our "income" (which isn't going as far) can be "invested" in the things we need to be able to cope with a long-term decline in this country. The next couple of months I'm going to be looking for more ways to reduce what it costs to run my house's a/c.

Simple things like increasing the insulation in the ceiling/attics. Finding window coverings that have a higher R value... but are easy to adjust for light (without electric ones) when I need light... and to keep out heat and cold.

OH - and I have to pass on an idea I heard awhile back for doing laundry: get one of those mop wringers that mount on a bucket. It's essentially the same thing as the wringer washer setup (which is obviously preferable) - but this will be better than beating the clothes with rocks in a stream... LOL.

I'm starting to limit my "prepping" to things that accomplish what we absolutely need, without any fossil fuel derived power involved. Anyone can on a woodstove yet? Have a bicycle or two? How about a cart pulled by a bicycle?


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

We canned on a wood stove when I was a kid, using the water bath process, not a pressure canner. I've seen it done with a pressure canner, but it takes close control of the fire. 

We have wood heat now, but a heating stove is not the answer for canning. If necessary, I'd do it in the back yard now with a couple rows of concrete blocks and a sheet of metal over that, fire beneath.

Yup, got bikes, working on building a trailer for one out of lawn chair tubing and 20" bike wheels, using a big plastic tote to a 'trunk". 

We were poor when I was a kid, so we did all the 'homestead' stuff from necessity. Good experience for today, I'm thinking. 

We have collected "antiques" for a long time now. It's just the stuff I grew up using daily, household items, lots of manual tools and such. Got a full cistern with a hand well pump on it, too. Gardens, chickens, orchard, etc., all in operation now. If the lights go out, we will live from sun to sun like everybody else. Don't want to stick out like a fat man during a famine.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

All I worry about is if we would have enough fuel to provide warmth to survive the cold winter, whether it's wood, diesel, gas, propane or oil. Food isn't a problem because it's always put up to last the winter and even the following year in case of a bad harvest.


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## Beachbum (Nov 18, 2013)

For us, it has been an ongoing, but not extreme, process for the past several years:

* We moved out of the city on our 1.5 acres in the country and our paid-for starter house. 
* We built a chicken coop and raise chickens for eggs.
* We barter eggs for deer/hog meat and may haw berries.
* We planted a relatively large garden and started canning. 
* We purchased a couple hundred pounds of dry rice and beans. 
* Ordered several books on various aspects of surviving when society goes to the dogs. 
* I've stocked up on arms and ammo.
* We have propane fuel for cooking and a "keep full" plan with the gas company.
* The family has a plan for where we will gather our necessities and ourselves if all goes south.

Some of our 2014 goals are:

* Prepare our bugout location further away from larger cities.
* Stock up on firewood.
* Build a greenhouse.
* Improve our gardening skills.


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## Reboopie (Sep 12, 2013)

We made/produce as much as possible and learn to do things without power. 
I cook on my wood stove on a regular basis, I look at it as free energy as it already provides my heat. 
I have made soap and will continue to do so (saving hardwood ash this year to make my own lye). 
We have numerous hand tools we have collected over the years and use them in addition to our power tools so that we cut down on the learning curve. 
We have several bikes and necessary items to keep them in good repair should they become a necessary form of transportation in the future. 
I have notebooks full of useful information where I include notes as to what has and hasn't worked for us. 

One suggestion I have is to learn to make your own hardwood lump charcoal and gather the items needed to make it. I like knowing I can smoke my meat once I cure it.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

Don't know if its more for the breakdown of society or just so we don't have to be very dependent on others for our needs/survival. We have been living this way for a little over 13 years and we keep trying to see what else we can learn to do for ourselves and not be dependent. 

We have solar panels and a generator. We normally use generator to top off batteries when several cloudy days. Now we just conserve our banked power better and haven't had to use generator in almost a year. No generator use means we don't have to buy gasoline.

Every winter I cook on my wood cookstove instead of using my propane one. Told dh that I would prefer to use woodstove year round.we have an abundance of woods and not buying propane makes us less dependent.

Due to where we live, we can't get out much, nor to we want to; so we are very prepared. I've been living like the 1800's for so long, that modern conveniences scare me. People are shocked when they learn that I have not had a refrigerator for about 14 years.

I think that anything a person can do for them selves, leads to a sense of accomplishment and self esteem; rare traits these days.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

lindamarie said:


> Due to where we live, we can't get out much, nor to we want to; so we are very prepared. I've been living like the 1800's for so long, that modern conveniences scare me. People are shocked when they learn that I have not had a refrigerator for about 14 years.


My wife constantly tells people that I spend thousands of dollars on solar equipment just to run a fridge so I can have ice cubes in my tea. 

Initially I remember thinking that we simply could not do WITHOUT a fridge, but as time went on I found there was less and less we were storing in it.

A deep freezer is handy to have and I'd probably want one of those where we live (it rarely freezes in winter), but if I lived where I could freeze meat by hanging it in a smokehouse then I don't think I'd bother with that either.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

That wailing sound you hear is from all the sheeple who can not get a glass of ice and water from their through the door monster fridge . . . . . .Because the grid is down ....and will be for awhile ..............


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

Thank goodness for root cellars and spring houses. Always a cold glass of whatever. And spring fed water, icy cold and better than anything you pay for a the store.


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## fishinshawn (Nov 8, 2010)

candyknitter said:


> I look on many prepping sites and read about great preps and recommended purchases. Lots of people are already pretty self sufficient and living off the grid.
> I'm wondering if people ever prepare for if there was a very long shtf event, one or several decades?
> Generators and vehicles still need fuel, some prep items require batteries, guns need ammo. I'm wondering about how people can prep once these things are unavailable and your own store of them has run out?
> I'm guessing a good supply of wood growing on the land will be needed for heat, and candles can be made from rendered animal fat. Hunting would be possible by trapping or crossbows. Transport would rely on a horse!
> ...


Unfortunately for some people that type dystopian fantasy is not only impossible to prepare for but completely unlikely to happen. We will never be bounced back to the horse and buggy days. The worst that will happen is a economic crash where unemployment gets significantly worse. Prepare for that, save your money, have enough food and a savings account that will let you live for 6 months without any income. Have some marketable skills, learn a trade, and be wise with your money.


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

machinist said:


> I think we all need to pray that the electric grid never, ever goes down. Not just for what it would mean to our society, but because that would mean the nuke plants in the country would probably fail, eventually, and the aftermath of that is just about unthinkable. Consider what happened at Fukushima, times 110, or whatever we have in the US now. Bad news, indeed.
> 
> Even with the grid working, something as relatively benign as a currency collapse would wreak havoc. I have given that some thought, and written a fiction tale about it. Long term survival by average people in that situation was what I tried to address in the story. If you are interested, it is posted on a free amateur authors board. Just click and read. It is a full length novel, so be advised of that.
> http://pawfiction.proboards.com/thread/410/bottom


Thank you for posting the link to the story. I particularly enjoyed the setup and character development over the first 100 pages or so.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

fishinshawn said:


> Unfortunately for some people that type dystopian fantasy is not only impossible to prepare for but completely unlikely to happen. We will never be bounced back to the horse and buggy days. The worst that will happen is a economic crash where unemployment gets significantly worse. Prepare for that, save your money, have enough food and a savings account that will let you live for 6 months without any income. Have some marketable skills, learn a trade, and be wise with your money.


I'm afraid the likelyhood of it happening is high or low depending on your circumstances. Lot of folks have lost the money they had in savings, or had to use up their savings while trying to find a job. I wouldn't doubt that we are heading back to a lifestyle that will be like the 1920's and 30's at the least. Lot a folks had modern conviences at the time....lot more folks were still living like they did 40 to 50 years prior. Then came the depression. My 92 year old neighbors memories are pretty much in line with whats going on today....2006 I watched television interviews and such telling about the job losses, and troubles in the midwest....things were rocking and rolling here.....2013, I drove to my accountant 30 miles away and saw 1 new house being built.....only thing in my county I've seen being built are 2 groups of subsidized housing...people can't find jobs like they used too, and you need a big, BIG!,bank account if you wan't to get a business loan. People have still got money, but most of them are holding on to it with both hands. My older neighbor says the depression didn't really hit here till 1932/1933...several years after it was tearing other section out of the frame. In my own family, the trucks were parked, the prices on farm crops got down to nothing....they sold the two horse cutlivators for $14 apiece to pay other bills and went back to walking.
I just imagine in a few more years you'll see folks really thankfull , that have ways to provide themselves with life's necessities without having to emptying their pockets. I really feel sorry for folks that depend on purchasing everything they need to live.....if they don't have deep pockets....they are going to be in trouble in the next few years....unless the track the global economy is on changes in the the next year or two!


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## viggie (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm no where near close yet, but that is my goal. I'm also on the homesteading side of the spectrum trying to live harvest to harvest. But I do have plenty of preps that I rotate through to supplement the limited amount I can grow at my current home and help me during hard times. The next few years will be focused on living cheap so I can afford more land than this little postage stamp, and growing/making my own will definitely help me there.

It also came in very handy this year, as I was one of the lucky folks that got a post election layoff and just found work again recently. A pantry and preps are a real blessing when your SHTF is losing your livelihood and only being able to pay for the mortgage and utilities each month...not silly things like food, toiletries, and critter supplies.


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## hurryiml8 (Apr 15, 2009)

Viggie, your gardening efforts have been pretty impressive to me from what I have seen on FB. You grow a lot in a small area. You have a greener thumb than me.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

To answer the OP, yes, yes we do.

Matt


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

machinist said:


> I think we all need to pray that the electric grid never, ever goes down. Not just for what it would mean to our society, but because that would mean the nuke plants in the country would probably fail, eventually, and the aftermath of that is just about unthinkable. Consider what happened at Fukushima, times 110, or whatever we have in the US now. Bad news, indeed.
> 
> Even with the grid working, something as relatively benign as a currency collapse would wreak havoc. I have given that some thought, and written a fiction tale about it. Long term survival by average people in that situation was what I tried to address in the story. If you are interested, it is posted on a free amateur authors board. Just click and read. It is a full length novel, so be advised of that.
> http://pawfiction.proboards.com/thread/410/bottom


Fantastic story It took me two days to get it read. May well be the best thing I have read all year! :lock::clap::happy::goodjob::goodjob::goodjob: It would be nice if we could sticky it with the other stories. Or at least a link to it it in its own thread. 

You have many talents you should be proud. THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!

What you have written is much what I expect to happen in the next 3-5 years by 2020 at the latest. 

*If you haven't read this story you should.* 

Larry


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## campfiregirl (Mar 1, 2011)

Ernie said:


> My wife constantly tells people that I spend thousands of dollars on solar equipment just to run a fridge so I can have ice cubes in my tea.


:rock: I'm with you.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

fishinshawn said:


> Unfortunately for some people that type dystopian fantasy is not only impossible to prepare for but completely unlikely to happen. We will never be bounced back to the horse and buggy days. The worst that will happen is a economic crash where unemployment gets significantly worse. Prepare for that, save your money, have enough food and a savings account that will let you live for 6 months without any income. Have some marketable skills, learn a trade, and be wise with your money.


We can hope it doesn't happen, but it doesn't hurt to ready if it does. 
I don't think it will get back to the horse and buggy days, but it may in some areas. Personally I think in my area I think goats would be better to have as our very limited natural forage won't support large animals in a confined area. My boss said its been so dry they have had to cut back to 1 cow/calf pair per 35 acres or feed hay.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

Grumpy old man said:


> The op is in London England , people have been surviving there for thousands of years while we have only been working on it for a couple hundred ,we should be asking him questions ?


Except for society there becoming more and more dependent on government. That might have been true 50 or so years ago. Not so much now.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

I do not think that a long term multi decade prep plan is needed. I think civilization would return to a normal state in a decade at most regardless of what the problem/issue is. 

If you are very concerned about it move to an area with many small farms where they still use a great deal of horse power. 

While my Amish neighbors are willing to let me use my tractors and trucks to help them do a task they can with more time and more effort do the same with their horses and wagons. They still plow, disc, harvest with horses. About the only thing they do differently is to use a hay bailer. Bailer has a gas motor and is pulled through the field with a team. Many operate green houses that use solar/battery and a fan to circulate hot air . 

In order to be without gasoline / diesel for years you have to raise/brew your own fuel or use horses or both. Not easy training a horse when you do not know what you are doing. If you lived in an Amish area you could purchase an older team of Mares. say 16 to 18 years old. Breed the Mares and raise the foils while lightly working them as they teach you how it is done. Hire an older Amish man to teach you and get a wagon, plow, disc. As the younger horses are ready start training them, keep or sell but keep breeding your mares and raising /training teams. 

You will be as ready as can be, have a fun hobby to keep you healthy and if you do it right be making a little money while raising your own food.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

I don't think it will get back to the horse and buggy days, but it may in some areas

I think you hit the nail on the head. If you read history, mostly ppopulation centers had the modern convienences. There wasn't electricty in the rural area here until 1948. Tractors didn't become the main source of power on the farms here until the latter 50's......lotta folks let their mules die of old age...just in case...specially those that came through the depression....I'm 38 and can remember folks still having outhouses, wring washers on the porch, and handpumps in the yards...not many, but some...and until the last 25 years most folks had wood heat.
My mother is headed towards 72, and can remember folks driving oxcarts to her uncles grist mill.....8 mills from Myrtle Beach, SC...I've plowed a mule on the same farm she lived on as a child. If you go there now and tell anyone that...they tell you how big a liar you are.
We, in this country, have had an abundance of ease the last 65-70 years. We've been able to use electricty and oil to replace human hands and animal labor...sped up production and allowed leisure time unheard of before.....but it costs money...money for electricty, diesel, gas, lubricants, tires, ......that make todays lifestyle possible.
Well, most folks I hear talking, are not talking about the great excess of wealth they have now, or the cheap cost of living......I don't hear much noise about it improving quickly either.......If your in the right place and it's the right time you may be doing well.....may just be scrapping by if you aren't. 
Horse and buggy days...maybee not...but looks like it might get back to doing without, driving to town once and a while 'sted of every day, and using the mules more to keep extra money in my pocket...sorta like they did here 65 to 75 years ago....if we are lucky.............................................................................


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Great post plow. Especially liked the story of your family in early SC. It's amazing the history a piece of land can be witness to. If it could only talk. Maybe then we as a culture would respect it more. There's some fascinating history out there.


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## Halfway (Nov 22, 2010)

The old saying.....time equalizes everything and everyone. we all end up dead or in a government cheese line.

Buy time!


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## campergirl (Oct 23, 2004)

7thswan said:


> Yes, I'm a Homesteader,not really a "prepper". So I prep for each season,and the one after that,and the one after that....


Just a note...I used the stock of my rifle to conceal fire starting stuff..matches, striker, lint, wax


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

I know this is a older thread, but I thought I should mention something that is very rarely brought up. I know we try to think of protecting our properties from those that might want what we have worked for. I think people should think about those that will just plan down right do harm if they can't get what they want. Think about someone riddling your solar panels with bullets, your well house being shot up, your place, or property being set on fire. You need to think about animals being shot, just because you have them, and have protected them well enough to keep them from being taken. I know this part of life is not what people want to think about, but if you look at the rioting that takes place today, with people just being upset about different events that they don't like, you have to think about it. I could see a band of people trying to take from others soon after they figure out the stores are not going to be stocked any time soon. They may take some from you her and there until you figure the proper way to keep what you have. Then I see them becoming more aggressive. If they are not successful at this stage, many will move on, but there will always be some that will have the attitude that if I can't have it, then you won't either. Just something I think we should consider.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

That would be an issue in a SHTF situation. There are precautions both active and passive. In a community, sentries could be posted. For a single family it would be tougher. There's still things that could be done to prep for raids other than stocking ammo. I like the idea of providing cover for those that might attack. You can use your imagination on what may happen if some uses that cover.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

Some of my thoughts are to possible sandbag, or reinforce a well house to protect it from stray bullets. Even if it wasn't purposely done, I can sure see how well laid out plans could fall apart quickly with a hole in a pressure tank. I think when solar panels are set up, it should be also considered how to protect them and battery banks. I also think about windows on your home. It may be near impossible to protect them, but I think it would be wise to have enough plywood, and insulation to stuff between the plywood to board up all of your windows if you need to.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

My first post to this Forum. Hello everyone. 

I try to prep for situations that would make life unpleasant. Loss of power, access to goods and services, for temporary or of medium duration periods. I do not prep for the EOE (end of everything), some religious end times or alien invasions. Such scenarios are the staple of lured fiction and movies (which might be fun to read or watch) but of rather low probability. 

Living remote as I do I only visit the store once every month to get supplies. It is just good sense to have extra against possible problems. Not to mention it saves money to buy up when prices are good on things I am going to use eventually. Not 100 toothbrushes however though I do keep a lot of extra TP on hand.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Welcome aboard!

Matt


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