# 4x4 Wall Frame Base Plate



## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

I need to tear down our well house and replace it. It's leaning in all sort of different directions because the previous home owner never put walls on the studs to hold anything in place (just some particle board and vinyl siding!). They tried bracing it, but it didn't work and there is a lot of termite damage.

I'd say I'm an average DIYer when it comes to wood work. I really need to plan it out well to make sure I can do as much work before I demo and rebuild. I plan to build the walls and trusses in our carport first. There is already an 8' x 8' concrete pad there and some electrical, which shouldn't be a problem.

I'm using pressure treated for everything except the siding. Is there any reason why I can't or shouldn't use 4X4s for the wall base plates? I can't think of any reason and can't find much online. Thanks for the help!


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I would anchor a treated 2x to the concrete first and then nail the bottom plate of your walls to that. This 2x bottom plate makes it so you can nail through it into the studs instead of having to toe nail the studs to a 4"x4" bottom plate....James


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks James. I hadn't really thought of that. I want to pre-build the entire wall in my carport to minimize any time without a structure.

Do you think I could use 5" galvanized deck screws through the 4x4 into the studs instead of toe nailing them and then anchor the 4x4 to the concrete?

I was planning on anchoring them similar to how we anchor random fabrications at work; bolts in the concrete with epoxy. A little reading suggests that tapcons or a PA hammer should be used?


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

I agree with jwal...2x for sill/base plate. 
You nail through the sill plate straight into the studs with 3-1/4" ACQ rated full round head nails (not clipped)...I use pneumatic equip all the way....
So, your wall is built with sill attached, then you raise it and place it on concrete. Drill through sill plate into concrete and put in anchor bolts (bolts with sleeve on one end and nut on other). I assume your familiar with anchor bolts? They are stronger than tapcons. 

4x4 sill plate adds nothing to strength of wall over a 2x sill plate, provided sill is anchored to concrete. They key here is not toe-nailing studs to sill (poor connection). 

Before raising wall on concrete I put down a layer of blueskin (6" wide) and sill foam tape on top (what is width of wall?). It keeps the lumber from wicking moisture and will seal imperfections in concrete (usually not perfectly smooth). 

Now, this wall (size???) will be heavy if done with PT lumber...square it, and throw on a cross member or two (scrap lumber) while transporting it into place. Of course, on new builds, I will have wall laid out so I just have to lift into place, so weight isn't a huge concern for me, unless it is a 40' wall...lol
For smaller walls, I will throw on my top layer of ply, to keep it square...plus, it means I won't have to raise a sheet of ply up high afterwards. 

If you can, post some pics....

What is your reasoning behind 4x4 sill plate?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Use two 2 X 4's for the bottom and drive the nails/screws straight through, or if you already have the 4 x 4, "toe-nail" the studs with 8 penny nails.

Trying to use long screws will just lead to a lot of frustration when they break off or the heads strip out

It will be best if you can anchor the walls to the concrete so it can't move in high winds.
It's much easier to do that with 2 x 4's also.

Toe nailing:


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks for the responses guys! Very helpful so far. The shed is 8' x 8'. My reasoning for the 4X4s was to provide extra pest and water protection at the base. The well leaks (plan to get that fixed) and there is currently termite damage along the base plates. They did not install a sill plate. Based on your feedback I was able to target some of my "research" and will go with the 2x sill plate straight to the concrete, with a membrane in between. 

I'll build the normal 2x walls in my carport and see how heavy they are to transport. I'll move them to the well house, put my sheathing on and then prop the walls up and nail to the sill plate. I'm just watching a ton of videos and trying to plan as much as possible. I have a week off of work after Thanksgiving and will be doing the work that week.

I appreciate the advise, could use as much as your willing to give and will most definitely have more questions! Rafter are the intimidating part; never doing them before. Then I need to make sure I have all the smaller steps in order, trim, etc.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Sill and base plate are the same thing....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plate
I see...thanks for pics. So, you plan to knock out a wall and then insert a new one? 
Roof looks ok...appears to be 4x4 ceiling joists and rafters (or rough cut dimensional lumber - true 2x)? I like that. They have collar ties, so all is good there...if one wanted to go crazy, collar ties 1/3 down from apex is ideal (for best strength), but we are talking about a 8x8 shed, so it is a moot point. 
It looks like you have a double top plate? That could work for you...keep one up for support, and then slide in wall with sill and top plate. 
Gabled ends appear to be the non-load walls. Should be able to knock those walls out without adding temp support (one at a time though). The load walls (sides that rafters sit on) are a bit trickier...but with two top plates, it might be doable, depending on how well they are nailed together, and how deep they nailed the rafters into top plate. You might have to toe-nail studs on those walls. I see that with all the well stuff in shed, tearing the works down and rebuilding might be a headache? 

Like you, my concern is the sill plate...having a new PT sill plate with appropriate sill foam tape etc., will be the way to go. Afterwards, one can anchor it into concrete. 
Then get on some sheeting (preferably ply, not OSB)...that gives the shed it's shear/torsional stability. Typical nail spacing for sheeting is 6" on edges, 12" on interior (use 2" nails - spiral nails have the best holding power).


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

I was pretty sure the sill and base plate were the same, but what is the 2x that is attached to the concrete? I thought that was in addition to the base plate of the wall? So there'd be two 2x's on the floor?

I really plant to take the entire thing down and start from scratch. This shed is leaning so bad in two directions and full or termite damage. The roof isn't horrible, but I hate doing things like this half way. I suppose I could do the walls now and in a few years tear the roof off, but I'll probably do it all.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> So there'd be two 2x's on the floor?


There's no real need for a double 2 x 4 on the bottom.

In house construction there is one on the bottom and two on top, but that is to get a roughly 8 foot inside height when using standard length studs, and to allow the walls to be tied together at the top by overlapping the top plates.

You can get by with just one top and bottom for what you're building.

If you're having termite problems, a good solution would be to run a row of cinderblocks around the perimeter, top it with metal flashing to create a termite barrier, and then build the wooden wall on top of that base.

For your purposes, single 2X's top and bottom and a 24" stud spacing would be fine.

Another alternative would be to use 2 X 6's so you could heavily insulate the walls and roof if you get lot of cold weather requiring you to heat the area to prevent freezing.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Dustin said:


> I was pretty sure the sill and base plate were the same, but what is the 2x that is attached to the concrete? I thought that was in addition to the base plate of the wall? So there'd be two 2x's on the floor?
> 
> I really plant to take the entire thing down and start from scratch. This shed is leaning so bad in two directions and full or termite damage. The roof isn't horrible, but I hate doing things like this half way. I suppose I could do the walls now and in a few years tear the roof off, but I'll probably do it all.


Yep, I agree on the teardown...just wasn't sure you'd be up for it, and you have to work around your pump gear. 
If building the same size, one could reuse the roof members if they are not knarly. 
Yeah, as BFF mentioned, only one sill plate and two top plates is the general rule. I like the two top plates so one can tie walls together (overlap at corners). Plus, it gives you more 'meat' to attach the rafters and ceiling joists. And if you make it exactly 8x8, one sheet of ply will cover a wall side to side (means your load bearing walls (ones that rafters sit on) are 8' long, and your gable end walls are 7" short of 8' or 7'5" long (if using 2x4 for walls). 
Now, I live up north, and I use nothing but 2x6 for walls, since I need good insulation. ymmv. 
Thankfully, termites are not an issue here...just rain and rain....


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm from way upstate NY where cold is an issue and termites are not as well. I'd love to do blocks on the bottom and I think I could do it, but I also think there's a good chance I'd have to end up calling someone and my pump gear would be sitting outside in the cold! Next time!

Great, I'm going go with y'alls advice so far and I appreciate it very much. Any straightforward and good resources for the rafters? Youtube has been giving me lots to watch and it's been good so far.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Make sure your fasteners (screws or nails) are compatible with the treated lumber. The new treatments are corrosive.


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

That's a good point; one that I have considered, but brings up a good question for y'all.

Which do you prefer; screws or nails? I have a nice nail gun and I know it'll be a lot faster, but I purchased deck screws for the project and feel like they offer better strength.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Dustin said:


> That's a good point; one that I have considered, but brings up a good question for y'all.
> 
> Which do you prefer; screws or nails? I have a nice nail gun and I know it'll be a lot faster, but I purchased deck screws for the project and feel like they offer better strength.


If they are typical ACQ deck screws, they DO NOT offer more strength than 3-1/4" framing nails. For pull out strength, sure, but for framing, you are more interesting in shear strength. Plus, one can always buy ardox nails for improved pull out strength. 
Should note, if you do your walls in PT lumber, with ACQ nails, over time, the wood drys out and clamps those nails like no tomorrow...lol

For your rafters, copy what you have, and you'll be fine, especially since you have ceiling joists and collar ties.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I think nails are better unless you're building something you will take apart later.

If I do use screws, I like the square drive heads over the Phillips, but you will still break lots of bits and strip out heads with long screws. I haven't broken a hammer since they stopped using wooden handles.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think nails are better unless you're building something you will take apart later.
> 
> If I do use screws, I like the square drive heads over the Phillips, but you will still break lots of bits and strip out heads with long screws. I haven't broken a hammer since they stopped using wooden handles.


I've been staring at those titanium hammers for a decade in our local lumber store, but cannot part with a $100...for a hammer, no less. 
Trying to remember the last time I actually used my hammer to put in a nail...hmmm....I do use it a lot for cleanup duty (pneumatic nail didn't drive in all the way, or making a toenail flush). 
I've been abusing my old wood handle steed, but it keeps on going...had to wrap end in tape as I cracked it 'tossing' it off job site...:huh:

I hear you about those Philips head screws...
Although, it drive me nuts when I get batch of poorly dipped ACQ rated Robertson (square) screws. Can't be all that difficult to make a square #2 screw. I'm good with #2 to about 2-1/2" (for deck boards)...any longer and I'm praying...well, zinc plated screws I have good success with, but one can only use those for interior applications on non-PT lumber. 
The only screw I've had good success with is torx head screws...but they are expensive $1/6" screw).


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I've been staring at those titanium hammers for a decade in our local lumber store, but cannot part with a $100...for a hammer, no less.


I have some hammers that are over 60 years old, and hammers I bought myself that are over 40 years old.

I don't need a $100 hammer as long as there are fiberglass Stanley's and metal Estwings



> Can't be all that difficult to make a square #2 screw. I'm good with #2 to about 2-1/2" (for deck boards)...any longer and I'm praying


If I need screws longer than about 2.5", I drill pilot holes, but still prefer nails for most jobs


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Is it possible to space the rafters unevenly so that way I can have better access to a small storage up there?


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Dustin said:


> Is it possible to space the rafters unevenly so that way I can have better access to a small storage up there?


You mean the ceiling joists? Absolutely. 
You have 5 ceiling joists (8' roof with 16" oc gives me 5)? 16" OC or did you space them further apart? You could leave one out without much issue. That would give you about a 30" gap...just have good collar ties. 

Another route is a beam at ridgeline (roof peak), but it has to be supported at gable ends right to floor. That supports the roof, and the ceiling joists are for decoration...albeit, every extra bit counts. They will tie walls together. Maybe for another day...

I am from the overkill camp...the more the better. Nothing worse than having a shed fall apart. Build it so you never have to rebuild it. 

It was easy to see why the shed failed in the first place (thanks for pics!). No sheathing in spots (made shed flimsy - and a flimsy shed will usually cause problems to siding/roofing material) and hodge podge siding (allowed water inside), no water resistant barrier (typar etc), plus, no sill plate protection. Gutters would really help, once your done...stop water from splashing on siding, especially down low. I also put flashing (drip cap) around perimeter to protect bottom of shed...even rolled flashing would work. 
Folks don't seem to pay enough attention to sill plate protection...that is the most important thing...imho


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Here is a quick update on the well house project. Thanks a lot to you guys for the advice; it really helped a lot. Planning was key and a big difference in some of the other DIY projects I've gotten in to. Most of it went to plan and what didn't was able to be accounted for. I've put some more trim up, but there are a few small things to finish up. That's typical of me. Like to finish everything 99% for some reason...

Overall a really good project that was needed for the new homestead.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Good job!!
It looks great.


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## ijon1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Good job. Looks real clean.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Very nice Dustin! That is a shed you can feel good about...right on!
Looks like you snuck in some flashing under shingles all around...nice. 
One minor suggestion...making sure you get no standing water around perimeter of shed. Just a small depression around perimeter, with a outward flowing trench (away from building), will limit those heavy rainstorms from pooling water reaching sill plates. 
I see it a lot in my travels. 

I have no doubt you'll be visiting your shed a lot...
What a difference from the original shed...lol


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone. Great suggestion melli! We actually found that out pretty quick and went and dug a depression. Some rain got in around the door frame before i put the trim up. I'm out there every rain inspecting it like crazy and the two days of recent rain left it bone dry inside. I bought some crushed marble to place around the perimeter to keep the plants and mud down. Nothing like that feeling when you stand back and are proud of your hard work.


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