# Illinois School MUST allow Males in the Female Shower Areas



## Shine

This takes the cake, so to speak. This trans gendered thing is so out of control. For those of you that have daughters, the Federal Government is FORCING this school to allow a "trans-gendered" male to co-habitate the female showers further stating that if the school puts up privacy barriers, it will be the choice of the male student if he uses them or not. IT was deemed discrimination to either force him to use a single shower or to require him to corden himself off from the other females as none of the other "females" are required to do so in the presence of other females.

To me, this is like stating that if a wheelchair bound student attends a school that ALL stairways must be removed and ramps installed and all doorways must accommodate wheel chairs.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-school-district-transgender-ruling/


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## Shine

...and in Missouri too:

"I believe that inside Lila is a female. I believe that she wants to have the female body and wants to be like the rest of females, but I know right now that's not physically possible," the 17-year-old said. "The only thing that bothers me is that Lila was in the girls' locker room. Some girls already have insecurity problems getting dressed in front of other girls as it is, much less having to get dressed in front of a boy."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/living/missouri-transgender-teen-feat/index.html

Might as well just let both genders shower together. Boy o boy do I see some serious lawsuits just a waitin'

now a 4 year old trans-gendered boy:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/04/california-family-discusses-4-year-old-transgender-child/

Consequences? 

http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...celebrating-transgender-children-david-french

"This is the future that our new culture is proclaiming for troubled kids &#8212; a future of genitals that are like &#8220;wounds&#8221; and suicide rates that skyrocket beyond all reason, more than nineteen times that of the general population. After being put forward to the world as a transgender child celebrity, how free will Jazz Jennings be to pull back from the brink? In a world of red carpets, fame, and acclaim, who will tell Jazz the truth?"

What happens when someone's daughter wants to shower with the boys? I'm betting that this will go over quite well.... <sarc off>

Story of another extremely young child making this decision who is being guided by his parents:

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/06/...old-transgender-child-somebody-call-the-cops/

"Just in case anyone misinterprets where I&#8217;m coming down on this story, I would insert one exhortation to the public at this point. Is there nobody in the state of New Hampshire who can call Child Protective Services, find a public defender and/or judge, call the police, or do something&#8230; *ANYTHING*&#8230; to get this child out of that home?"


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## farmrbrown

The people are getting exactly what they asked for, so be it.


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## AngieM2

It is interesting that all the stories I've seen is males wishing to be female. Of males wishing to be in an area of females regardless of how the most feel. At least when I went to school there were individual curtained off dressing and showering areas.

I would not have a daughter of mine be in that school after this passes. I can see more homeschooling in the future for many.


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## Evons hubby

I'm curious here, would those who are worried about these "boys" using the girls locker rooms feel all that much better having them shower with their sons, knowing their sexual preference?


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## Shine

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm curious here, would those who are worried about these "boys" using the girls locker rooms feel all that much better having them shower with their sons, knowing their sexual preference?


Good observation. It does not bode well. We as a people have lost something. This is something new.


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## farmrbrown

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm curious here, would those who are worried about these "boys" using the girls locker rooms feel all that much better having them shower with their sons, knowing their sexual preference?


Yes..


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## JJ Grandits

I think these poor kids have been brainwashed by their screwed up parents. I feel sorry for them. Many will become future timebombs waiting to go off.

I am also amazed how the rights of one so called transgender student outweighs the rights of all the other students.

The section 9 law that the government is using to force its opinion does not give it the power to do so. the law itself says so. We are in a dictatorship.

A perverted dictatorship.


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## Irish Pixie

&#8220;These are going to be my final words. I can&#8217;t stand to live another day, so I&#8217;m committing suicide. The reason why I&#8217;ve decided to do this is because I&#8217;m transgender.&#8221; &#8211; Ashley Hallstrom, October 15, 2015

http://www.transglobalmagazine.com/the-horrific-rate-of-transgender-suicides/

"A 16-year-old transgender girl who spoke about being bullied at school in Fallbrook, California killed herself, a support group said, raising questions about what educators can and should do to support students who change gender identity. Taylor Alesana described her struggles in one of the many videos she posted to her fans last November, saying; 'I&#8217;ve lost tons of friends, tons. And it&#8217;s been hell. I go to school every day, and I get my lunch and I sit down alone.' She took her life on April 2."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3034272/Transgender-teen-California-kills-self-bullying.html


Yup, it's worth all of this just to get the chance to use the woman's shower:

http://www.transsexual.org/basicsoftransition.html


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## Bearfootfarm

> To me, this is like stating that if a wheelchair bound student attends a school that ALL stairways must be removed and ramps installed and all doorways must accommodate wheel chairs.


That's pretty much the law already, but has nothing to do with transgenders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990



> Good observation. It does not bode well. *We as a people have lost something*. This is something new.


Some have lost the ability to mind their own business.


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## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> The people are getting exactly what they asked for, so be it.


Then why is anyone complaining?


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## Irish Pixie

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's pretty much the law already, but has nothing to do with transgenders:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990
> 
> Some have lost the ability to mind their own business.


Public access for disabled people has been law for over 23 years. I wonder how the OP missed that?


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## Laura Zone 5

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm curious here, would those who are worried about these "boys" using the girls locker rooms feel all that much better having them shower with their sons, knowing their sexual preference?


I didn't think transgender was so much about 'sex' as it was the person born with boy parts really thinks he is a girl?
I could be wrong.

Kids are bullied at school for all kinds of reasons, and it's wrong, every single time. 
Zero tolerance for bullying is a lie.

Home schooling is always, always an option.
It's the option we chose.

IMHO (and we have been down this road before) having a separate bathroom with a door would be the answer. Add a shower to it now.

All humans with boys parts shower together.....period.
All humans with girl parts shower together.......period.

Do not cross the streams.


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## Irish Pixie

Laura Zone 10 said:


> I didn't think transgender was so much about 'sex' as it was the person born with boy parts really thinks he is a girl?
> I could be wrong.
> 
> Kids are bullied at school for all kinds of reasons, and it's wrong, every single time.
> Zero tolerance for bullying is a lie.
> 
> Home schooling is always, always an option.
> It's the option we chose.
> 
> IMHO (and we have been down this road before) having a separate bathroom with a door would be the answer. Add a shower to it now.
> 
> All humans with boys parts shower together.....period.
> All humans with girl parts shower together.......period.
> 
> Do not cross the streams.


Or a female that identifies as male. 

I agree with down the road separate bathroom/showers but what do we do now? To have a transgender girl in with a bunch of teenage boys is asking for her to be hurt or dead, in many cases. A transgender boy in with girls is less likely to be violent, but there could be verbal harassment.


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## Laura Zone 5

Irish Pixie said:


> Or a female that identifies as male.
> 
> I agree with down the road separate bathroom/showers *but what do we do now?* To have a transgender girl in with a bunch of teenage boys is asking for her to be hurt or dead, in many cases. A transgender boy in with girls is less likely to be violent, but there could be verbal harassment.


Allow them the room, to themselves after every one else showers?

Showering after PE or sports was brutal for me.
I was not as 'developed' as the other girls.....and the harassment was cruel and brutal.
I cannot imagine what kind for brutality would come out of the mouths of kids trying to shower who identify w/ a gender they are not born with.

I would think that it would be infinitely worse than what I endured.


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## Evons hubby

Shine said:


> Good observation. It does not bode well. We as a people have lost something. This is something new.


Yes, we do seem to have lost something.... Our sense of humanity. Transgendered people have been with us for thousands of years, just like gay men and lesbians have been. The only thing "new" is these human beings are wanting to be recognized as the people they are without having to endure the cruelty of so called normal people.


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## doozie

This student had their very own private changing area from what I have read on this story elsewhere. I am wondering if this was fine with the student, and someone else got wind of it, and pushed it further, demanding access.

It sure seems like schools have to spend so much time on everything but education.

I don't think I would want my daughter to be expected to welcome all in the shower room. You know?, What about their "rights"
I really wish they would interview the students to see how they really feel about this turn of events.

I don't really understand transgender tendencies. I think people are warping reality in their heads somehow. Either you are or you aren't. A look at oneself in a full length mirror nekkid can confirm it for you. Just the way I feel about it, and that does not make me phobic, or heartless. I just plain can't figure out how this happens.


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## Farmerga

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm curious here, would those who are worried about these "boys" using the girls locker rooms feel all that much better having them shower with their sons, knowing their sexual preference?


 You cannot assume which gender they prefer to diddle.


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## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Public access for disabled people has been law for over 23 years. I wonder how the OP missed that?


Issues with comprehension? The comparison stated ALL stairs and ALL doors, meaning a school complex without stairs, and all 36" doors. Get it?


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## Shine

No, they are absolutely pushing for him to have access to the girl's showers at the same time as the girls so that he can feel like he is a "girl", anything else is discrimination - re-read the article.


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## arabian knight

This is one of the most idiotic thing that these liberals these days have put upon OTHERS in the USA. Just LEAVEX stuff alone. Stand in a corner with a Dunce cap on they are so out of this world as to what the USA is all about.


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## arabian knight

1984 is alive and well all thanks to these liberal ideas happening. They want and DEMAND everyone to look the same do the same and act the same. No individual thoughts or identity. Just all the same NOT what the USA was or is about. But by golly their agenda is alive and well.


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## no really

When I was in school some of the most harmful bullies were the girls. Don't think sending a young person that is obviously different will be good.


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## arabian knight

Well at least PEOPLE are speaking up and winning.
NO MEN IN WOMENS BATHROOMS 
Houston, TX folks spoke up Loud And Clear.~!
Houston Equal Rights Ordinance fails by wide margin~!!! YEAH


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## Cornhusker

arabian knight said:


> This is one of the most idiotic thing that these liberals these days have put upon OTHERS in the USA. Just LEAVEX stuff alone. Stand in a corner with a Dunce cap on they are so out of this world as to what the USA is all about.


Idiotic and liberal in the same sentence is a bit redundant.
I guess if this had been a rule when I was in high school, half the boys would have claimed tranny status and headed for the shower.


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## wiscto

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm curious here, would those who are worried about these "boys" using the girls locker rooms feel all that much better having them shower with their sons, knowing their sexual preference?


Do we know his sexual preference? Do we have to take everything everyone says at face value, because they tell us we should take it at face value?


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## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> Idiotic and liberal in the same sentence is a bit redundant.
> I guess if this had been a rule when I was in high school, half the boys would have claimed tranny status and headed for the shower.


You can't just suddenly "claim" it.
You have to be *living* it 24/7


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## Vahomesteaders

This has gotten out of hand. If you have male parts then it's the male bathroom for you. Same for females. You stick a female who wants to be a boy in the boys shower and eventually rape will happen by hormone crazed kids. And a boy with a penis will definitely make girls uneasy. It's just not right. It's a is disease of the mind. Someone brought up suicide. It is higher rates among gays and trans not because of bullying. Sure that catches the blame, but infact is because their minds are not working properly. They are not happy with themselves because they are fighting nature. It should be treated as any other physiological disorder and help should be given. Instead we say it's OK to be unwell and different. We should not do that. We should be helping them. Not by facilitating the gender confusion but by helping them cope. Almost 50 percent of people who have a sex change commit suicide. Why? Because they thought it would make them complete. But it didn't. They are still what they were born. You can change the body but not the DNA.


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## wr

wiscto said:


> Do we know his sexual preference? Do we have to take everything everyone says at face value, because they tell us we should take it at face value?


I would hope that schools are basing decisions on actual diagnosis and parental input rather than the high school football team showing up in cheerleader uniforms one Monday morning.


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## Michael W. Smith

Agreed.

But how far does this have to be taken? 

Back when I was in school some 30 some years ago, there were classmates you always wondered about - which sex do they really prefer? Back then, kids were very harsh - and could be downright mean - whether or not that person was really actually gay or not.

Today, my son and his classmates are way more understanding of it then my generation. Some kids have "come out" of the closet - and for the most part it's no big deal to their fellow classmates.

The problem comes from the people who are different, make a public scene "Hey, look at me - I'm ________. I want to be treated fairly. Hey, look at me! I am the same as you, just want to be loved. Hey, look at me!!"

I think it's great now adays that folks who are gay can come out, and for the most part be accepted. 

But now you are talking different sexes in the same bathroom, locker room, or shower. What could go wrong with that? Plenty.

A person isn't legally an adult until (depending on where you live) 18-21. They can't vote, they can't drink, etc. But now young children can now determine what sex they really are - despite whatever they were born with?


So where should the line be drawn? 

Should people who want to have sex with animals also be accepted?
Should people who want to have sex with children also be accepted?
Should people who like to rape strangers also be accepted?
Should people who like to kill other people also be accepted?

"We are just like you . . . . but slightly different . . . . we want rights."



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yes, we do seem to have lost something.... Our sense of humanity. Transgendered people have been with us for thousands of years, just like gay men and lesbians have been. The only thing "new" is these human beings are wanting to be recognized as the people they are without having to endure the cruelty of so called normal people.


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## Farmerga

Really, no one bit on my last post, so, I will ask again.

What if a male transsexual (claims he is female) is also a "lesbian"? So you have a person, allowed into a girls shower who is, on average, much stronger, possessing the genitals of a male and is attracted to girls. Anyone see a problem with that?


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## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> âThese are going to be my final words. I canât stand to live another day, so Iâm committing suicide. The reason why Iâve decided to do this is because Iâm transgender.â â Ashley Hallstrom, October 15, 2015
> 
> http://www.transglobalmagazine.com/the-horrific-rate-of-transgender-suicides/
> 
> "A 16-year-old transgender girl who spoke about being bullied at school in Fallbrook, California killed herself, a support group said, raising questions about what educators can and should do to support students who change gender identity. Taylor Alesana described her struggles in one of the many videos she posted to her fans last November, saying; 'Iâve lost tons of friends, tons. And itâs been hell. I go to school every day, and I get my lunch and I sit down alone.' She took her life on April 2."
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3034272/Transgender-teen-California-kills-self-bullying.html
> 
> 
> Yup, it's worth all of this just to get the chance to use the woman's shower:
> 
> http://www.transsexual.org/basicsoftransition.html




If you've got such deep psychological problems, that by age 16 you are committing suicide, a trip to the men's room ain't gonna help.
Showering with my sister ain't gonna save your life.
I wish it were that easy, but it's not.
This idea that we can force everybody to accept anything people want to do.....and LIKE IT.....that's some fantasyland out in California I guess.
There's a REASON most people don't accept it, even the so called "transgender" people can't accept it for themselves. 
The internal conflict is so great, some end up as suicides.

Obviously, the answer isn't the one the crackpot head doctors are coming up with, otherwise this problem would be getting BETTER instead of WORSE.




Bearfootfarm said:


> Then why is anyone complaining?


Well, my reply WASN'T a complaint at the time, but an observation. But since you asked, read what I wrote above.


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## Bearfootfarm

> Should people who want to have sex with animals also be accepted?
> Should people who want to have sex with children also be accepted?
> Should people who like to rape strangers also be accepted?
> Should people who like to kill other people also be accepted?


All those things are illegal in most places
Let's try to be realistic


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## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> Really, no one bit on my last post, so, I will ask again.
> 
> What if a male transsexual (claims he is female) is also a "lesbian"? So you have a person, allowed into a girls shower who is, on average, much stronger, possessing the genitals of a male and is attracted to girls. Anyone see a problem with that?


There are probably other lesbians there that have no trouble controlling themselves, so I don't see why you think there would be any problems.
Do you think they gay guys should shower separately too?


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## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are probably other lesbians there that have no trouble controlling themselves, so I don't see why you think there would be any problems.
> Do you think they gay guys should shower separately too?


Those other lesbians don't generally have levels of testosterone or the upper body strength of a transsexual with testicles. And if you believe this one can control his/her self, why not just take down the separations all together and let it be a free for all in the high school locker room?


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## Irish Pixie

farmrbrown said:


> If you've got such deep psychological problems, that by age 16 you are committing suicide, a trip to the men's room ain't gonna help.
> Showering with my sister ain't gonna save your life.
> I wish it were that easy, but it's not.
> This idea that we can force everybody to accept anything people want to do.....and LIKE IT.....that's some fantasyland out in California I guess.
> There's a REASON most people don't accept it, even the so called "transgender" people can't accept it for themselves.
> The internal conflict is so great, some end up as suicides.
> 
> Obviously, the answer isn't the one the crackpot head doctors are coming up with, otherwise this problem would be getting BETTER instead of WORSE.
> 
> Well, my reply WASN'T a complaint at the time, but an observation. But since you asked, read what I wrote above.


It's just a few queer kids killing themselves so it doesn't matter, right?  What if it was your (collective your) kid? Would you care then?

This is exactly what gay kids went through not that long ago. With "just" gay kids it's better accepted, at least now, than it was.


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## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> All those things are illegal in most places
> Let's try to be realistic


Realistic?? Really? Let's see... I'm going to put on a dress and head down to the YWCA for a shower. Think they'll let me or will I be in jail and in the news at 6? Is that realistic enough for you?


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## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Realistic?? Really? Let's see... I'm going to put on a dress and head down to the YWCA for a shower. Think they'll let me or will I be in jail and in the news at 6? Is that realistic enough for you?


Are you transgender?


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## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> It's just a few queer kids killing themselves so it doesn't matter, right?  What if it was your (collective your) kid? Would you care then?
> 
> This is exactly what gay kids went through not that long ago. With "just" gay kids it's better accepted, at least now, than it was.


I guess some people cannot see the forest because of all the trees in the way. Possibly he was suggesting that there might be a better solution?


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## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you transgender?



Yeah... um... yeah - that's the ticket... Can I shower with the women now?


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## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> Those other lesbians don't generally have levels of testosterone or the upper body strength of a transsexual with testicles. And if you believe this one can control his/her self, why not just take down the separations all together and let it be a free for all in the high school locker room?


So should everyone be separated based on upper body strength?
I've seen some pretty big girls too.
Do you know how big this one is, or is this all just speculation?
It's starting to sound pretty silly to me


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## wiscto

wr said:


> I would hope that schools are basing decisions on actual diagnosis and parental input rather than the high school football team showing up in cheerleader uniforms one Monday morning.


I'm not really sure there is such a thing as actual diagnosis yet. I don't know if there is even a study. It's the person's word, and possibly a psychologists word, and I'm sorry but psychology is far from a perfect science. They can be lied to.


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## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Yeah... um... yeah - that's the ticket... Can I shower with the women now?


Sure, after you've proven it... Or for all we know you actually could have trans leanings, and that's why you're so emotional over this.


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## Irish Pixie

wiscto said:


> I'm not really sure there is such a thing as actual diagnosis yet. I don't know if there is even a study. It's the person's word, and possibly a psychologists word, and I'm sorry but psychology is far from a perfect science. They can be lied to.


How many straight teenage boys have you known that would dress in drag for years in order to someday, maybe, be able to shower with the girls?


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## no really

Just an opinion but it sounds like they are placing a psychologically fragile young person in what could very well prove to be a high stress situation. The young person may or may not have unreal expectations of the out come. If it is not up to expectations the outcome could be bad, very bad.


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## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Realistic?? Really? Let's see... I'm going to put on a dress and head down to the YWCA for a shower. Think they'll let me or will I be in jail and in the news at 6? Is that realistic enough for you?


Yes, you'd probably be arrested since you're not a documented transgender living as a female.

But that has nothing to do with the situation in the OP, and it's not very realistic either


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## Irish Pixie

Bearfootfarm said:


> So should everyone be separated based on upper body strength?
> I've seen some pretty big girls too.
> Do you know how big this one is, or is this all just speculation?
> It's starting to sound pretty silly to me


My daughter can dead lift 425 lbs. 

ETA: She's been back in serious training for a meet this weekend so she can probably lift more than that now.


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## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> So should everyone be separated based on upper body strength?
> I've seen some pretty big girls too.
> Do you know how big this one is, or is this all just speculation?
> It's starting to sound pretty silly to me


 They should be separated by post-op/pre-op status. If you have a twig and two berries, you go with the circle with the little arrow on it, if you don't you go with the circle with the little plus sign on it. Simple, biologically based line of demarcation. 

We passed silly years ago.


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## MO_cows

Geez how does something like this end up in federal court in the first place? Why can't they just let the trans kid out of class a few minutes early to use the shower before the rest of the class? If they already have gender issues, being around a bunch of naked people of either sex probably doesn't do their psyche any good. They aren't a good match for either group. Not enough difference from the boys but not enough like the girls either.


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## Farmerga

MO_cows said:


> Geez how does something like this end up in federal court in the first place? Why can't they just let the trans kid out of class a few minutes early to use the shower before the rest of the class? If they already have gender issues, being around a bunch of naked people of either sex probably doesn't do their psyche any good. They aren't a good match for either group. Not enough difference from the boys but not enough like the girls either.


 Careful, that sounds almost.....logical. We will have NONE of that here!!!!:teehee:


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## Wolf mom

What amazes me is that a few years ago few kids even knew what the term transgender meant. Now they are.

I blame....


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## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, you'd probably be arrested since you're not a documented transgender living as a female.
> 
> But that has nothing to do with the situation in the OP, and it's not very realistic either


Well, then I might have to work on that. 

You see, people that are unwilling to go the tough route usually collapse and seek a path of lessor resistance. I would offer that many of these misguided individuals are seeing that they can gather some pity and attention by doing what they are doing. The problem with that is it then turns into a tougher path that the one that they were originally on. Where I scream out for help is when others WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY IN THEIR HEAD jump on the bandwagon to siphon off that attention and pity for themselves without severely changing their world, those are the leeches in this predicament...

I mean, what parent in their right mind would let little Billy at 4 years old sit at the dinner table and say - wow, I really hate being a boy, I feel like wearing a dress tomorrow and then start the planning for gender reassignment and try to force their prejudices upon all those around them? 'splain that'un Lucy.


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## Irish Pixie

Wolf mom said:


> What amazes me is that a few years ago few kids even knew what the term transgender meant. Now they are.
> 
> I blame....


Transgender surgery (called sex change operations) have been done since at least the '50s. One of the first, and most famous, was Christine Jorgensen.


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## wr

Farmerga said:


> They should be separated by post-op/pre-op status. If you have a twig and two berries, you go with the circle with the little arrow on it, if you don't you go with the circle with the little plus sign on it. Simple, biologically based line of demarcation.
> 
> We passed silly years ago.


That works well unless the twig and two berries has a habit of wearing a dress and the entire football team may get a bit upset when someone dressed in a skirt enters their zone.


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## wiscto

Irish Pixie said:


> How many straight teenage boys have you known that would dress in drag for years in order to someday, maybe, be able to shower with the girls?


None who had "normal" control of their impulses. Knew a guy who admittedly joined the cheerleading squad so he could put his hands on their butts and look up their blouses.


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## arabian knight

no really said:


> Just an opinion but it sounds like they are placing a psychologically fragile young person in what could very well prove to be a high stress situation. The young person may or may not have unreal expectations of the out come. If it is not up to expectations the outcome could be bad, very bad.


It will bring up all sorts of things now. 
People ought to not take this sitting down. The future of their children, the sanctity and well-being of their sons and daughters and grandchildren, is at stake. The future is NOW, and it is not looking good for the children if THIS keeps up the way it is going.
And now it sounds like each of the girls have a case against the school district for creating *a sexually threatening environment.*~!!!!!
Lots of money in play now for the right lawyer, and their clients.
The ones that are on the side of children mental health that is.~!


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## Shine

wiscto said:


> None who had "normal" control of their impulses. Knew a guy who admittedly joined the cheerleading squad so he could put his hands on their butts and look up their blouses.



:shrug: -> down their blouses???

Anyways, as a guy, that's the only benefit I can think of to being on a cheerleader squad as a teenager or as a young adult in college... Jest sayin'


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## RichNC

Shine said:


> :shrug: -> down their blouses???
> 
> Anyways, as a guy, that's the only benefit I can think of to being on a cheerleader squad as a teenager or as a young adult in college... Jest sayin'


If you are holding them over your head, I imagine you can see up there tops in some cases.


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## keenataz

wiscto said:


> I'm not really sure there is such a thing as actual diagnosis yet. I don't know if there is even a study. It's the person's word, and possibly a psychologists word, and I'm sorry but psychology is far from a perfect science. They can be lied to.


Do you think a teenage boy would seriously lie about this? In my experience to "come out" with something like this, is going to make your teen years very unpleasant.

And I don't think you can really "fake" it. I am assuming the school would need more than a kid showing up some day and saying "By the way..."


----------



## Irish Pixie

wiscto said:


> None who had "normal" control of their impulses. Knew a guy who admittedly joined the cheerleading squad so he could put his hands on their butts and look up their blouses.


Did he wear a cheer skirt for years in order to do it? A true trans kid will have cross dressed for years by the time he or she got to high school.


----------



## Shine

Really, it does not matter to me regarding the person who is gender confused. They can be any one they think they are. BUT, they have to deal with themselves. They cannot say "Although I have boy parts, I'm actually a girl." and visa-versa in the light that they are forcing others to be subject to their whims. What I am saying is that there should be no "boys" who still have boy parts in the girls locker rooms. There should be no "girls" that have girl parts in the boys locker rooms. Since College is a captured environment, meaning that the use of the locker room areas and other areas of privacy are necessary to being able to be going to classes on campus, I would say that it is only reasonable to extend this premise there too.

Other than that, I say "be whomever you want to be." Their rights stop where my rights begin. [to copy someone else's statement] My rights as a parent dictate that the above should be in place as long as I have children in school.

It does not matter how long this person has worn a skirt or whatever.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Really, it does not matter to me regarding the person who is gender confused. They can be any one they think they are. BUT, they have to deal with themselves. They cannot say "Although I have boy parts, I'm actually a girl." and visa-versa in the light that they are forcing others to be subject to their whims. What I am saying is that there should be no "boys" who still have boy parts in the girls locker rooms. There should be no "girls" that have girl parts in the boys locker rooms. Since College is a captured environment, meaning that the use of the locker room areas and other areas of privacy are necessary to being able to be going to classes on campus, I would say that it is only reasonable to extend this premise there too.
> 
> Other than that, I say "be whomever you want to be." Their rights stop where my rights begin. [to copy someone else's statement] My rights as a parent dictate that the above should be in place as long as I have children in school.


Nope. The court has decided, at least in this one case, that you're wrong. 

This situation is the same as the one 30 years ago with gays, 45 years ago with women, and 60 years ago with blacks. Transgender people have rights too.


----------



## JJ Grandits

Ok, so your a teenage boy who thinks he is a girl and therefore wants to shower with the girls. But what if your a teenage boy who thinks he is a girl but is also a lesbian? Would you want your daughter in the shower with a boy who thinks he's a girl who is attracted to her? I think his attraction will become somewhat noticeable. How would the other girls in the shower react? How should the parents react? and most of all, what the hell is wrong with our government?


----------



## JJ Grandits

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. The court has decided, at least in this one case, that you're wrong.
> 
> This situation is the same as the one 30 years ago with gays, 45 years ago with women, and 60 years ago with blacks. Transgender people have rights too.



Wrong.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. The court has decided, at least in this one case, that you're wrong.
> 
> This situation is the same as the one 30 years ago with gays, 45 years ago with women, and 60 years ago with blacks. Transgender people have rights too.


Ah, but you have already provided the solution to this dilemma, if it happens in my area, I will demand that the Sheriff arrest this person once HE enters the locker room. Let the court then rule over state rights once again. If the Feds want to destroy America in this fashion, I will be standing in their face. It appears that you wish to destroy the rights of those that still hold good morals, to allow a boy in a girls privacy areas is not right thinking. You cannot get there from here. I do not care if he has worn a tu-tu since birth. 

I can see the uproar just about to burst.


----------



## doozie

I have looked a little deeper into this story, and all I can come up with is, if this child, yes child, thinks things will be just fine when they are admitted to the locker room, no more hurt feelings. Right.
School can loose millions in funding affecting so many if they don't comply with basically one persons identity, which, who knows, could change at any time.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Ah, but you have already provided the solution to this dilemma, if it happens in my area, I will demand that the Sheriff arrest this person once HE enters the locker room. Let the court then rule over state rights once again. If the Feds want to destroy America in this fashion, I will be standing in their face. It appears that you wish to destroy the rights of those that still hold good morals, to allow a boy in a girls privacy areas is not right thinking. You cannot get there from here. I do not care if he has worn a tu-tu since birth.
> 
> I can see the uproar just about to burst.


I don't think that being in the opposite sex's locker room is illegal. So what would you demand the sheriff arrest her for?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> They should be separated by post-op/pre-op status. If you have a twig and two berries, you go with the circle with the little arrow on it, if you don't you go with the circle with the little plus sign on it. Simple, biologically based line of demarcation.
> 
> We passed silly years ago.


I don't think the surgery can't be performed until they are 18, and even then it's only after years of hormone treatments and psychiatric evaluations.

There are also drug that inhibit puberty so testosterone levels can be controlled too.


----------



## JJ Grandits

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't think that being in the opposite sex's locker room is illegal. So what would you demand the sheriff arrest her for?


You could hang out in a men's locker room and find out. Disturbing the peace and trespassing comes to mind. Not to mentioned being labels as a sex offender. I assume there are also minors involved.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Well, then I might have to work on that.
> 
> You see, people that are unwilling to go the tough route usually collapse and seek a path of lessor resistance. I would offer that many of *these misguided individuals* are seeing that they can gather some pity and attention by doing what they are doing. The problem with that is it then turns into a tougher path that the one that they were originally on. Where I scream out for help is when others WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY IN THEIR HEAD jump on the bandwagon to siphon off that attention and pity for themselves without severely changing their world, those are the leeches in this predicament...
> 
> I mean, what parent in their right mind would let little Billy at 4 years old sit at the dinner table and say - wow, I really hate being a boy, I feel like wearing a dress tomorrow and then start the planning for gender reassignment and try to force their prejudices upon all those around them? *'splain that'un Lucy*.


No one needs to explain anything.
It's not your business, no matter how much you'd like to control things


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't think that being in the opposite sex's locker room is illegal. So what would you demand the sheriff arrest her for?


Let's see you walk into a boys locker room when they are there, or a men's college locker room when they are in there. You are being illogical.

um, you are calling a person with male genitalia a female? Oh, yeah... I get it, it all depends upon what the definition "is" is, doesn't it?


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> Ok, so your a teenage boy who thinks he is a girl and therefore wants to shower with the girls. But what if your a teenage boy who thinks he is a girl but is also a lesbian? Would you want your daughter in the shower with a boy who thinks he's a girl who is attracted to her? I think his attraction will become somewhat noticeable. How would the other girls in the shower react? How should the parents react? and most of all, what the hell is wrong with our government?


You've showered with gay men at some point in your life, assuming you went to high school and college, did one attack you in the shower? 

I'm sure that I've showered with a lesbian, and I'm confident both my daughters have as well. All of us were unscathed by her/them. I'd have no problem showering with a transgender man, in fact I'd rather her than a bigot.

LGBT are human beings, most human beings can control their lustful urges. 

People have rights. I would have thought that the gay marriage law cemented the fact that ALL of us have rights.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Let's see you walk into a boys locker room when they are there, or a men's college locker room when they are in there. You are being illogical.


I'd be arrested? By whom and for what?


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> You could hang out in a men's locker room and find out. Disturbing the peace and trespassing comes to mind. Not to mentioned being labels as a sex offender. I assume there are also minors involved.


Why would I want to? I'm a woman.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

JJ Grandits said:


> Ok, so your a teenage boy who thinks he is a girl and therefore wants to shower with the girls. But what if your a teenage boy who thinks he is a girl but is also a lesbian? Would you want your daughter in the shower with a boy who thinks he's a girl who is attracted to her? I think his attraction will become somewhat noticeable. How would the other girls in the shower react? How should the parents react? and most of all, what the hell is wrong with our government?


Somebody already played the "lesbian" card.
Read the other posts and it will save time


----------



## wr

Shine said:


> Ah, but you have already provided the solution to this dilemma, if it happens in my area, I will demand that the Sheriff arrest this person once HE enters the locker room. Let the court then rule over state rights once again. If the Feds want to destroy America in this fashion, I will be standing in their face. It appears that you wish to destroy the rights of those that still hold good morals, to allow a boy in a girls privacy areas is not right thinking. You cannot get there from here. I do not care if he has worn a tu-tu since birth.
> 
> I can see the uproar just about to burst.


I can actually understand your discomfort but I do believe that quite often that comes from trying to cope with something unfamiliar and it's perfectly understandable. 

I'm not fond of large open area change rooms and personally feel the concept is very flawed because young people who reach an age where they are very self conscious about their bodies are in a position to be scrutinized by others and often made to feel uncomfortable. Essentially, the whole gym change room thing is one giant train wreck. 

My school was much smaller and couldn't afford showers so we simply used the individually locked toilet cubicles to change before and after phys ed and we all seemed to survive so perhaps the best answer is to let kids shower at home and just offer individually locking cubicles instead of curtains or a wide open area. I'm sure it would also save school divisions a great deal of money and with the locked doors, it should be less chance of problems. 

In the article linked, the child in question is in grade 1 so I doubt if sexual assault is a concern since kids that age aren't exactly fueled by hormones but like everything else, it certainly has broader implications and it seems to me that adults should be smart enough to work out a reasonable solution without involving lawyers and courts.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Public access for disabled people has been law for over 23 years. I wonder how the OP missed that?


How is being transgender a disability? What exactly is she unable to do because of her disability?

Jim


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Ah, but you have already provided the solution to this dilemma, if it happens in my area, *I will demand* that the Sheriff arrest this person once HE enters the locker room. Let the court then rule over state rights once again. If the Feds want to destroy America in this fashion, *I will be standing in their face*. It appears that you wish to destroy the rights of those that still hold good morals, to allow a boy in a girls privacy areas is not right thinking. You cannot get there from here. I do not care if he has worn a tu-tu since birth.
> 
> I can see the uproar just about to burst.


You can "demand" anything you like, but don't be surprised when they ignore you.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> This takes the cake, so to speak. This trans gendered thing is so out of control. For those of you that have daughters, the Federal Government is FORCING this school to allow a "trans-gendered" male to co-habitate the female showers further stating that if the school puts up privacy barriers, it will be the choice of the male student if he uses them or not. IT was deemed discrimination to either force him to use a single shower or to require him to corden himself off from the other females as none of the other "females" are required to do so in the presence of other females.
> 
> *To me, this is like stating that if a wheelchair bound student attends a school that ALL stairways must be removed and ramps installed and all doorways must accommodate wheel chairs.
> *
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-school-district-transgender-ruling/





Jim Bunton said:


> How is being transgender a disability? What exactly is she unable to do because of her disability?
> 
> Jim


Transgender isn't a disability. I was responding the post listed above, specifically to the part I bolded.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Jim Bunton said:


> How is being transgender a disability? What exactly is she unable to do because of her disability?
> Jim


Shine brought up disabilities by talking about stairs and doors, so her reply was in reference to his remarks


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Let's see you walk into a boys locker room when they are there, or a men's college locker room when they are in there. You are being illogical.
> 
> um, you are calling a person with male genitalia a female? Oh, yeah... I get it, it all depends upon what the definition "is" is, doesn't it?


You say you're male and expect people to believe it, right? I'll give the same consideration to a transgender person.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> You've showered with gay men at some point in your life, assuming you went to high school and college, did one attack you in the shower?
> 
> I'm sure that I've showered with a lesbian, and I'm confident both my daughters have as well. All of us were unscathed by her/them. I'd have no problem showering with a transgender man, in fact I'd rather her than a bigot.
> 
> LGBT are human beings, most human beings can control their lustful urges.
> 
> People have rights. I would have thought that the gay marriage law cemented the fact that ALL of us have rights.


I do not see any parallel between this and gay rights. I have supported gay rights for as long as I can remember. I have never understood how there could be a question as to whether two members of the same sex could be together sexually and matrimonial if they so chose. I have no issue with transgenders in general. Where I see a problem is when others are forced to feel true psychological distress so the transgender individual does not have to. I might feel differently if the distress was based on being forced to shower with a transgender individual. It is not it has to do with being forced to being naked with naked members of the opposite sex. That is a very common human feeling and should be respected.
Jim


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one needs to explain anything.
> It's not your business, no matter how much you'd like to control things


too funny... Try to get a gender confused teen in the locker where there are others in various stages of undress and I will show you what illegal means, the laws regarding this are already on the books even though you wish to make believe otherwise. Oh, and btw, the school only loses funding, no one goes to jail for telling the gender-confused child, family - get out of here, that's stupid, we'll send your child to jail if they try that.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. The court has decided, at least in this one case, that you're wrong.
> 
> This situation is the same as the one 30 years ago with gays, 45 years ago with women, and 60 years ago with blacks. Transgender people have rights too.


What case did the court decide? Do you have a link, or the case name? I would like to read it. All I have found was a ruling by the department of education.

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I do not see any parallel between this and gay rights. I have supported gay rights for as long as I can remember. I have never understood how there could be a question as to whether two members of the same sex could be together sexually and matrimonial if they so chose. I have no issue with transgenders in general. Where I see a problem is when others are forced to feel true psychological distress so the transgender individual does not have to. I might feel differently if the distress was based on being forced to shower with a transgender individual. It is not it has to do with being forced to being naked with naked members of the opposite sex. That is a very common human feeling and should be respected.
> Jim


I imagine that will be addressed, and is in the Chicago school now. Perhaps the people that feel real distress will be able to shower separately? I have no idea having never encountered the issue. 

The bottom line is that transgender people have rights. Just like everyone else.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. The court has decided, at least in this one case, that you're wrong.
> 
> This situation is the same as the one 30 years ago with gays, 45 years ago with women, and 60 years ago with blacks. Transgender people have rights too.


There is also responsibility that comes with having rights, any rights, and [mis]using them to bully a school is an abuse of those rights. Some school districts can't afford to add facilities to accommodate every orientation out there. What are we up to now, 7?? What if more schools just drop phys ed, all the kids would be punished, how fair is that? It could have been so easily handled without the courts ever getting involved. 

Also you do a huge disservice and disrespect to the people who struggled and strived for women's rights and civil rights for blacks, by comparing those causes to a blown-all-out-of-proportion kerfuffle over if, when and where sexually confused high school kids take a shower after gym class. Get off the pedestal already. 

You could stagger the times for showering. You could just excuse the trans kids from gym class, I remember there were girls with "severe cramps" who managed to get out of gym all thru high school with a note from their parents. Along with the kids with asthma and such. They did some paper work and got a grade, big whoop. Put the trans kids in the last class of the day for gym. Then they go home afterwards and shower there. I mean there are probably a hundred ways to accommodate the situation without invading the rights of the trans kids or the normal kids either one. And without trying to construct school facilities to accommodate umpteen different sexual orientations. And definitely without wasting our taxpayer money on court actions about it!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> too funny... Try to get a gender confused teen in the locker where there are others in various stages of undress and I will show you what illegal means, *the laws regarding this are already on the books* even though you wish to make believe otherwise. Oh, and btw, the school only loses funding, no one goes to jail for telling the gender-confused child, family - get out of here, that's stupid, we'll send your child to jail if they try that.


Obviously you're confused if you think it's illegal, but I'll be happy to read the statutes when you post them.

Until then, refer to the court ruling you already posted to see what is "legal"


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> What case did the court decide? Do you have a link, or the case name? I would like to read it. All I have found was a ruling by the department of education.
> 
> Jim


The original post, and it's link, has all this information. It references several court cases including the one we are discussing now.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> You say you're male and expect people to believe it, right? I'll give the same consideration to a transgender person.


OK, I'll prove my gender in the proper arena and act accordingly if the transgendered person does also.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> I imagine that will be addressed, and is in the Chicago school now. Perhaps the people that feel real distress will be able to shower separately? I have no idea having never encountered the issue.
> 
> The bottom line is that transgender people have rights. Just like everyone else.


Rights to invalidate my or my child's right to privacy? You can't be serious.


----------



## painterswife

Shine said:


> Rights to invalidate my or my child's right to privacy? You can't be serious.


How. Other children already are changing together. Your child has the option already to change in a bathroom stall. Nothing changes that.


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> There is also responsibility that comes with having rights, any rights, and [mis]using them to bully a school is an abuse of those rights. Some school districts can't afford to add facilities to accommodate every orientation out there. What are we up to now, 7?? What if more schools just drop phys ed, all the kids would be punished, how fair is that? It could have been so easily handled without the courts ever getting involved.
> 
> Also you do a huge disservice and disrespect to the people who struggled and strived for women's rights and civil rights for blacks, by comparing those causes to a blown-all-out-of-proportion kerfuffle over if, when and where sexually confused high school kids take a shower after gym class. Get off the pedestal already.
> 
> You could stagger the times for showering. You could just excuse the trans kids from gym class, I remember there were girls with "severe cramps" who managed to get out of gym all thru high school with a note from their parents. Along with the kids with asthma and such. They did some paper work and got a grade, big whoop. Put the trans kids in the last class of the day for gym. Then they go home afterwards and shower there. I mean there are probably a hundred ways to accommodate the situation without invading the rights of the trans kids or the normal kids either one. And without trying to construct school facilities to accommodate umpteen different sexual orientations. And definitely without wasting our taxpayer money on court actions about it!


Are they all a kerfuffle because they aren't important to you? I can assure you that rights are very important to transgender people, as important as the struggle for women, blacks, and gays. 

I'll bet that was all discussed. I have no idea as I wasn't there. I kinda doubt that a court case was the first thing mentioned tho. 

Would it be OK to make the black kid, the girl, or the gay kid have the last gym class and shower at home?


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> Obviously you're confused if you think it's illegal, but I'll be happy to read the statutes when you post them.
> 
> Until then, refer to the court ruling you already posted to see what is "legal"


You are not aware of the multitude of Sex Crimes that cover nudity, ESPECIALLY the ones regarding minors? Which "ruling" invalidates the other? You want to say that a woman has the privacy to control their bodily functions, I want privacy for my children. And if another adult forces my child to be in a state of undress with one of another gender, I will be able to retire early because I will sue whomever I can and have whatever child, teacher and principal arrested for crimes against my child.


----------



## MO_cows

wr said:


> I can actually understand your discomfort but I do believe that quite often that comes from trying to cope with something unfamiliar and it's perfectly understandable.
> 
> I'm not fond of large open area change rooms and personally feel the concept is very flawed because young people who reach an age where they are very self conscious about their bodies are in a position to be scrutinized by others and often made to feel uncomfortable. Essentially, the whole gym change room thing is one giant train wreck.
> 
> My school was much smaller and couldn't afford showers so we simply used the individually locked toilet cubicles to change before and after phys ed and we all seemed to survive so perhaps the best answer is to let kids shower at home and just offer individually locking cubicles instead of curtains or a wide open area. I'm sure it would also save school divisions a great deal of money and with the locked doors, it should be less chance of problems.
> 
> In the article linked, the child in question is in grade 1 so I doubt if sexual assault is a concern since kids that age aren't exactly fueled by hormones but like everything else, it certainly has broader implications and it seems to me that adults should be smart enough to work out a reasonable solution without involving lawyers and courts.


Very good points. I remember lots of kids who didn't ever shower, they were simply too uncomfortable to be naked in front of the group. Our junior high and then high school had a "shower room" with a bunch of shower heads coming off the walls, and just benches in front of the lockers, so zero chance for privacy if you wanted to shower after gym. Whatever modesty you could find with an undersize towel, that was it! But that was the most cost effective setup.


----------



## Shine

painterswife said:


> How. Other children already are changing together. Your child has the option already to change in a bathroom stall. Nothing changes that.


So, my child has to surrender the right to not have to be naked in front of other genders? You guys should listen to yourselves. This is hypocritical thinking, you want rights for everybody to do everything but when you do this- you are destroying the rights of others and you seemingly do not care.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Would it be OK to make the black kid, the girl, or the gay kid have the last gym class and shower at home?


Would it be OK to make the black kid, the girl, or the gay kid have to be naked in front of someone else of the other gender?


----------



## painterswife

Shine said:


> So, my child has to surrender the right to not have to be naked in front of other genders? You guys should listen to yourselves. This is hypocritical thinking, you want rights for everybody to do everything but when you do this- you are destroying the rights of others and you seemingly do not care.


Who said your child has to be naked infront of anyone in school? I never had to. Do you force your child to be?


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> Are they all a kerfuffle because they aren't important to you? I can assure you that rights are very important to transgender people, as important as the struggle for women, blacks, and gays.
> 
> I'll bet that was all discussed. I have no idea as I wasn't there. I kinda doubt that a court case was the first thing mentioned tho.
> 
> *Would it be OK to make the black kid, the girl, or the gay kid have the last gym class and shower at home?*


Only if they take issue showering with the white kid, the physically challenged kid, the "developed way sooner than everybody else" kid, etc. If they aren't comfortable then they should have the right NOT to shower there as well. 

Now if they were denying the trans kid entry into the school, that would be a violation of rights. And no, I wouldn't go along with that. 

But a federal court case about a kid's shower is the epitome of a kerfuffle!


----------



## MO_cows

painterswife said:


> Who said your child has to be naked infront of anyone in school? I never had to. Do you force your child to be?


Lucky you! Did you go to school in the high rent district? 

We had benches, we had lockers, we had an open shower room, and only like 5 bathroom stalls for a gym class of 25 or more girls. You were gonna expose yourself just changing in and out of gym clothes, even if you skipped the shower.


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> Only if they take issue showering with the white kid, the physically challenged kid, the "developed way sooner than everybody else" kid, etc. If they aren't comfortable then they should have the right NOT to shower there as well.
> 
> Now if they were denying the trans kid entry into the school, that would be a violation of rights. And no, I wouldn't go along with that.
> 
> But a federal court case about a kid's shower is the epitome of a kerfuffle!


I imagine it was thought the first black's right, woman's rights, and gay right's were thought by some to be silly and overblown as well. 

I remember the viciousness of "my kid will never shower with a :insert horrible slang word for gay:!!" Before that it was a vile words for black people... 

Perhaps the "normal" (your word, not mine) kids can have the last gym class and go home without showering. Is that OK?


----------



## wr

MO_cows said:


> Very good points. I remember lots of kids who didn't ever shower, they were simply too uncomfortable to be naked in front of the group. Our junior high and then high school had a "shower room" with a bunch of shower heads coming off the walls, and just benches in front of the lockers, so zero chance for privacy if you wanted to shower after gym. Whatever modesty you could find with an undersize towel, that was it! But that was the most cost effective setup.


It's hard on kids. Two of my friends were 5'8" and built like fashion models and it went a long way to reinforcing my belief that I was built like Winnie the Pooh, when in reality, I wasn't chubby, didn't have short stumpy legs with fat thighs. I was just actually a well built, well muscled farm kid who just happened to be short. 

After a few years of sticking my fingers down my throat, I came to realize no amount of weight loss was going to make me 5'8" and pin thin thighs just wasn't genetically possible.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> You are not aware of the multitude of Sex Crimes that cover nudity, ESPECIALLY the ones regarding minors? Which "ruling" invalidates the other? You want to say that a woman has the privacy to control their bodily functions, I want privacy for my children. And if another adult forces my child to be in a state of undress with one of another gender, I will be able to retire early because I will sue whomever I can and have whatever child, teacher and principal arrested for crimes against my child.


It's not a "sex crime" to shower or undress in the locker room.
You're being totally unrealistic now.


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not a "sex crime" to shower or undress in the locker room.
> You're being totally unrealistic now.


Look, I really do not care to play your games. I have warned others to this horrific change in our school system. You know well enough that if one person of one gender exposes themselves to one of the other gender that this is a violation of the law. If an adult forces this to happen to minors then the adult goes to jail. So, I do not care to reply to your silliness anymore in this thread, you are not being logical, I feel that you are not being genuine and I sincerely believe that you are saying the things that you are to mix the pot.

TTFN

Now people know...


----------



## wiscto

Irish Pixie said:


> Did he wear a cheer skirt for years in order to do it? A true trans kid will have cross dressed for years by the time he or she got to high school.


No he didn't. But he showed me a stash of underwear he had stolen from some girls who had people over for parties. I ratted him out, and after that we didn't talk. And I don't think that you're going to be able to define trans for everyone. I don't think everyone is going to have gone through the timeline you're assuming. And I think that if you tried to enforce the rule, "must have cross dressed for years," you will be on my side of the fence being called a bigot.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Look, I really do not care to play your games. I have warned others to this horrific change in our school system. You know well enough that if one person of one gender exposes themselves to one of the other gender that this is a violation of the law. If an adult forces this to happen to minors then the adult goes to jail. So, I do not care to reply to your silliness anymore in this thread, you are not being logical, I feel that you are not being genuine and I sincerely believe that you are saying the things that you are to mix the pot.
> TTFN
> Now people know...


I'm not "playing games" 
I'm attempting to have a rational discussion with you, but I see it's not possible.


----------



## Irish Pixie

wiscto said:


> No he didn't. But he showed me a stash of underwear he had stolen from some girls who had people over for parties. I ratted him out, and after that we didn't talk. And I don't think that you're going to be able to define trans for everyone. I don't think everyone is going to have gone through the timeline you're assuming. And I think that if you tried to enforce the rule, "must have cross dressed for years," you will be on my side of the fence being called a bigot.


I meant dressed as that gender for years but it really doesn't matter. And I don't think you're a bigot.

It's going to take awhile to figure out the "rules" regarding the transgendered. But I really don't think that an "always been straight" teen boy is going to be allowed access to the girl's locker room just because he says he's transgender.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> I imagine it was thought the first black's right, woman's rights, and gay right's were thought by some to be silly and overblown as well.
> 
> I remember the viciousness of "my kid will never shower with a :insert horrible slang word for gay:!!" Before that it was a vile words for black people...
> 
> Perhaps the "normal" (your word, not mine) kids can have the last gym class and go home without showering. Is that OK?


Normal is the appropriate word, look it up. LGBTQ is not the most common human condition which is what fits the description of "normal". And it isn't an insult to say so, no need to get the vapors over it. And yes if they let the kids go home after gym class as the last class of the day and clean up there, I would not have a problem with that for my kid. It's a two-fer, gets the gym clothes home to be washed too! 

Rights for blacks wasn't thought to be silly, white people were scared. Scared of more competition for jobs, college admissions and everything else, and scared of "revenge" type actions. But the white majority took a leap of faith and passed the civil rights act and time has proven it was the right thing to do. I'm sure a lot of men thought women's rights to be silly but they have come around. Most of them anyway! Gay right to marriage was blown badly by both sides. If a "domestic union" type legal status had been created for them years ago we'd all be better off today and we wouldn't have forever redefined the word marriage. 

A federal court case over a kid's shower, still silly. And overblown.


----------



## wiscto

Irish Pixie said:


> I meant dressed as that gender for years but it really doesn't matter. And I don't think you're a bigot.
> 
> It's going to take awhile to figure out the "rules" regarding the transgendered. But I really don't think that an "always been straight" teen boy is going to be allowed access to the girl's locker room just because he says he's transgender.


I can understand that people want to make sure that no one feels isolated, rejected, left out, etc.... This is just one thing I feel isn't worth it. I also don't think that it's healthy. I don't think the full spectrum of feelings and rationale have been explored here. I don't think a chromosomally male child _should_ feel badly about using the "wrong" bathroom compared to how they feel. They should be taught that the bathroom designations are there for reasons that have nothing to do with them, and are not designed to hurt their feelings. They should be taught that the stigmatic boundary is there to stop the majority of the kids, who are heterosexual and fully identify with their genitalia, from knocking each other up with 12 second quickies in the bathroom stall. They should be taught that maintaining the stigma of being in the wrong bathroom per your genitalia is there so that teachers don't have to stand around in bathrooms all day making sure 12 year old girls aren't popping out babies a year later. They should be taught that it's just about convenience, logic, statistics, and that using their male parts in the male bathroom, or vice versa, while they have them shouldn't be a big deal, that it shouldn't hurt their feelings. They're just built that way for the time being. They should be taught that they're just doing the rest of us a favor, and saving us all a gigantic hassle. And they should be high-fived for getting over it and deciding not to behave like victims of a system _that wasn't designed to hurt them_.


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm not not "playing games"
> I'm attempting to have a rational discussion with you, but I see it's not possible.


Really, so one person of one gender exposing themselves to another of the other gender does not rank as a crime in this country? Are you trying to tell me that you are saying that it is not a crime to walk into and shower in an EMPTY locker room? You absolutely know the reference that I was making and you come up with a goofy reply like that? 

Please, if you can, answer this: If two people, different genders, underage, and without any intention of wanting to see the other naked, one intentionally disrobes in front of the other. Can the one who has to see that report that a crime has been committed? 

Games, not rationality. :nono:

So, can you please retry your attempt at having a rational discussion? I'll try but there has to be some give and take on both sides. We've spoke of this before.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Really, so one person of one gender exposing themselves to another of the other gender does not rank as a crime in this country? Are you trying to tell me that you are saying that it is not a crime to walk into and shower in an EMPTY locker room? You absolutely know the reference that I was making and you come up with a goofy reply like that?
> 
> Please, if you can, answer this: If two people, different genders, underage, and without any intention of wanting to see the other naked, one intentionally disrobes in front of the other. Can the one who has to see that report that a crime has been committed?
> 
> Games, not rationality. :nono:
> 
> So, can you please retry your attempt at having a rational discussion? I'll try but there has to be some give and take on both sides. We've spoke of this before.


Scroll back.
I'm not repeating it for you.


----------



## Cornhusker

Bearfootfarm said:


> You can't just suddenly "claim" it.
> You have to be *living* it 24/7


I must have missed the rules meeting.


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> Scroll back.
> I'm not repeating it for you.


Whatever. Rationality. Does the Federal Board of Education make laws now? That is where this decision came from. Are you saying that the Federal Board of Education has passed a law that supersedes local sexual crime laws? I knew you were running in circles and to defend your premise it was necessary for you to get me running in circles.

Both you and pixie think that some court case has been decided that stated that the locker rooms/showers where people are sometimes in different stages of undress are no longer taboo, well you need to go find that - here's the current "Legislative" body that has written this "Law". Sorry, does not work that way.

CHICAGO &#8212; Federal education authorities, staking out their firmest position yet on an increasingly contentious issue, found Monday that an Illinois school district violated anti-discrimination laws when it did not allow a transgender student who identifies as a girl and participates on a girls&#8217; sports team to change and shower in the girls&#8217; locker room without restrictions. 

No more running in circles for you, my statements all stand as written.


----------



## Shine

By the way, you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person with male genitalia is a female and I will give you a pass. Until then, a person with male genitalia is a male.


----------



## Jim Bunton

For those that see no problem with a male transgender girls being allowed to use the girls shower think this should be extended to include all male students? Isn't it unequal treatment for some males to have access to the girls shower and not others?
Jim


----------



## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> It's just a few queer kids killing themselves so it doesn't matter, right?  What if it was your (collective your) kid? Would you care then?
> 
> This is exactly what gay kids went through not that long ago. With "just" gay kids it's better accepted, at least now, than it was.


 
Nice spin, but that's not even close.

I didn't say it wasn't a terrible problem.
What I SAID, was this wasn't the solution to that problem, and if all these so called experts were right, WHY is it getting worse instead of better?


----------



## wr

Cornhusker said:


> I must have missed the rules meeting.


I don't know if there is a transgender handbook but I do know someone who is transgendered and there was no earth shattering Monday morning revelation. 

The interesting thing is that there isn't a large number of them and while I'm one of those people that hates to think anyone may be in an uncomfortable situation but it seems to me that every time adults try to make rules to make kids more comfortable, they seem to set them of to be more uncomfortable. 

I realize that parents need to be informed of what goes on in schools but when adults stepped back and let kids figure things out, they seemed to have concluded gay kids aren't a big deal and these things have a way of not becoming big huge festering issues when they're handled like the small things they really are. 

I read the article and this whole uproar began over a kid in first grade and I'd bet my soul that not many first grade kids are even concerned about gender identity issues and in their world, it's just another kid that needs to change clothes for gym. 

I'm certainly not an expert of child psychology nor am I an expert on sociology but I have raised a gay kid and while life isn't easy for them, you have to raise them to understand their world isn't easy and they'd best be tough enough to cope with obstacles along the way and I suspect it's the same path for trans kids.


----------



## Shine

wr said:


> I don't know if there is a transgender handbook but I do know someone who is transgendered and there was no earth shattering Monday morning revelation.


I too know an adult who is transgendered, my heart aches at the travails that this person is going through in this world. I ask my Savior for understanding, I find myself wanting to hate them for saying that God made a mistake as far as they are concerned. However it is not my battle, they get to do as they wish as long as they do not impede others rights.

In this instance, our government is telling us, all of us, that it is necessary to allow males into the females locker rooms, into their private realms. I find it unreasonable to bow to this edict and I will not.

Children do not need to be the pawns of those that would push an agenda, a 4 year old is not competent to state that they are a certain gender, and should they and if their parents try to capitalize on this innocent statement and guide their child down this very arduous path, then I sincerely do not know what to think.

There are many on here that advocate that transgendered people have rights. Ok, I agree. But I would ask, what or how are these children protected from over zealous parents that would use these children to push an agenda? Will you do it or will you jump on the bandwagon to suit your agenda?


----------



## wr

Shine said:


> I too know an adult who is transgendered, my heart aches at the travails that this person is going through in this world. I ask my Savior for understanding, I find myself wanting to hate them for saying that God made a mistake as far as they are concerned. However it is not my battle, they get to do as they wish as long as they do not impede others rights.
> 
> In this instance, our government is telling us, all of us, that it is necessary to allow males into the females locker rooms, into their private realms. I find it unreasonable to bow to this edict and I will not.
> 
> Children do not need to be the pawns of those that would push an agenda, a 4 year old is not competent to state that they are a certain gender, and should they and if their parents try to capitalize on this innocent statement and guide their child down this very arduous path, then I sincerely do not know what to think.
> 
> There are many on here that advocate that transgendered people have rights. Ok, I agree. But I would ask, what or how are these children protected from over zealous parents that would use these children to push an agenda? Will you do it or will you jump on the bandwagon to suit your agenda?


They aren't mistakes and if nothing else, they're humans and we can learn a lot from any kid who's different. 

I'm sure you'd also believe that children of the same age aren't old enough to competently express their sexual preference and they aren't but there are plenty of signs as they mature and most parents are well aware their kids are different, even if they chose not to admit it. 

My kids are older and I have no agenda and neither do they, beyond the fact that they're simply people with likes and dislikes and I assume they have a lot of similar traits to myself and other family members who strongly influenced their lives. 

Thankfully, I've never been forced to have to defend any of my kids sexual preferences but then again, why should any parent be put in a position of having to defend their child because others fear them or dismiss them as being a mistake simply because they're different. They don't bite or poop on the carpet, they aren't recruiting for some secret organization and all they really want is the same thing anybody else's kids want. 

If someone saw your kid(s) as scary or a mistake, would you simply take them home and tell them to throw in the towel or teach them to stand up for themselves and what's right? These parents may be right or wrong but if they don't stand up for their kids, who's going to? 

I don't have answers to the change room issue but but I'm not sure that it's worth getting too excited about because there's a much greater chance of a gay kid in a change room than a trans kid.


----------



## farmrbrown

A few good points I'd like to highlight......



wr said:


> The interesting thing is that there isn't a large number of them and while I'm one of those people that hates to think anyone may be in an uncomfortable situation but it seems to me that every time adults try to make rules to make kids more comfortable, they seem to set them of to be more uncomfortable.
> 
> I realize that parents need to be informed of what goes on in schools but when adults stepped back and let kids figure things out, they seemed to have concluded gay kids aren't a big deal and these things have a way of not becoming big huge festering issues when they're handled like the small things they really are.
> 
> I'm certainly not an expert of child psychology nor am I an expert on sociology but I have raised a gay kid and while life isn't easy for them, you have to raise them to understand their world isn't easy and they'd best be tough enough to cope with obstacles along the way and I suspect it's the same path for trans kids.





wr said:


> They aren't mistakes and if nothing else, they're humans and we can learn a lot from any kid who's different.
> 
> 
> If someone saw your kid(s) as scary or a mistake, would you simply take them home and tell them to throw in the towel or teach them to stand up for themselves and what's right? These parents may be right or wrong but if they don't stand up for their kids, who's going to?
> 
> I don't have answers to the change room issue but but I'm not sure that it's worth getting too excited about because there's a much greater chance of a gay kid in a change room than a trans kid.




If it is approached in this way, as individual cases, with understanding, I think the best outcome for all is possible.
Blanket laws for everybody, everywhere is the way to likely get the worst outcome possible.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## JJ Grandits

Irish Pixie said:


> I'd be arrested? By whom and for what?


I already answered that. You assume that one persons rights may override the rights of others. Someones rights stop when they impinge on the rights of others.

Here is an example. a young woman believes that she is really a boy and wants to use the boys locker room and showers. She goes to a school that has a large muslim population. For a muslim boy to see a naked female body violates his religion and he is very devote. Practicing his religion is a Constitutional right. Must he surrender his right and violate his religion to satisfy the so called right of an individual with what is a government approved mental disorder?

You own land and have a farm. If there is a pond you can sunbathe and go skinny dipping. It's your property and you have the right to privacy. Afterwards, to you drive to town and meet some friends for lunch and shopping naked. You were naked on your property, why not now? explain.

Being male or female is genetic. XX vs XY. If your brain tells you something different then you have a problem. I really don't care how cool and trendy it is. If you seriously want to think you belong to the opposite sex go ahead, but don't expect me to accept, support, or violate my rights to fulfill your fantasy.


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> I already answered that. You assume that one persons rights may override the rights of others. Someones rights stop when they impinge on the rights of others.
> 
> Here is an example. a young woman believes that she is really a boy and wants to use the boys locker room and showers. She goes to a school that has a large muslim population. For a muslim boy to see a naked female body violates his religion and he is very devote. Practicing his religion is a Constitutional right. Must he surrender his right and violate his religion to satisfy the so called right of an individual with what is a government approved mental disorder?
> 
> You own land and have a farm. If there is a pond you can sunbathe and go skinny dipping. It's your property and you have the right to privacy. Afterwards, to you drive to town and meet some friends for lunch and shopping naked. You were naked on your property, why not now? explain.
> 
> Being male or female is genetic. XX vs XY. If your brain tells you something different then you have a problem. I really don't care how cool and trendy it is. If you seriously want to think you belong to the opposite sex go ahead, but don't expect me to accept, support, or violate my rights to fulfill your fantasy.


How can any of that happen when the transgender girl has court permission to be in the locker room? 

So you agree that the brain can be wired differently, and tell you that you are a different sex. Good. Now tell me how that is any different than the 1000s of other genetic anomalies?

You don't have to agree with transgenderism. Aren't transgender? Fine, just mind your own business.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Whatever. Rationality. Does the Federal Board of Education make laws now? That is where this decision came from. Are you saying that the Federal Board of Education has passed a law that supersedes local sexual crime laws? I knew you were running in circles and to defend your premise it was necessary for you to get me running in circles.
> 
> Both you and pixie think that some court case has been decided that stated that the locker rooms/showers where people are sometimes in different stages of undress are no longer taboo, well you need to go find that - here's the current "Legislative" body that has written this "Law". Sorry, does not work that way.
> 
> CHICAGO â Federal education authorities, staking out their firmest position yet on an increasingly contentious issue, found Monday that an Illinois school district violated anti-discrimination laws when it did not allow a transgender student who identifies as a girl and participates on a girlsâ sports team to change and shower in the girlsâ locker room without restrictions.
> 
> No more running in circles for you, *my statements all stand as written.*


Except for this one:



> So, I do not care to reply to your silliness anymore in this thread, you are not being logical, I feel that you are not being genuine and I sincerely believe that you are saying the things that you are to mix the pot.
> TTFN


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't think the surgery can't be performed until they are 18, and even then it's only after years of hormone treatments and psychiatric evaluations.
> 
> There are also drug that inhibit puberty so testosterone levels can be controlled too.


 
Look you are all about this right or that right. Biologically this person is male, correct? Do girls have the right to a private locker room, or, does this one person get to trump the rights of the many? Reasonable accommodations are one thing, let her shower, in the girls locker room, alone, or something like that. But, forcing unwilling girls (as most are underage, their parents rights are also in danger) to shower with a person who is biologically male, violates their rights.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> Look you are all about this right or that right. Biologically this person is male, correct? Do girls have the right to a private locker room, or, does this one person get to trump the rights of the many? Reasonable accommodations are one thing, let her shower, in the girls locker room, alone, or something like that. But, forcing unwilling girls (as most are underage, their parents rights are also in danger) to shower with a person who is biologically male, violates their rights.


The court case in the OP indicates it doesn't, at least right now. I'm sure that one of the nontransgender's parents can also file suit tho. 

I don't think everyone has read the article in the original link so here are it's pertinent points. 

"The federal government has followed suit. Last year, the Obama administration announced that _transgender people are protected from discrimination under the Civil Rights Act_.

But the report announced Monday by the Department of Education might highlight how thin the line is that schools must follow.

Like other districts faced with this dilemma, the district tried to find a negotiated solution by putting up privacy curtains in the girls' locker room. Similar arrangements have kept schools from running afoul of anti-discrimination violations.

At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so.

The use of curtains might be OK, but the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains, the Department of Education report states.

"*All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right*," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement.

The student, who hasn't been publicly identified, participates on a girls' sports team, but has been required to change and shower separately from her teammates and classmates."


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> How can any of that happen when the transgender girl has court permission to be in the locker room?
> 
> So you agree that the brain can be wired differently, and tell you that you are a different sex. Good. Now tell me how that is any different than the 1000s of other genetic anomalies?
> 
> You don't have to agree with transgenderism. Aren't transgender? Fine, just mind your own business.


Have you got a link to a court case that gives them permission?
All the links I have followed lead to agency decisions not court decisions.

It becomes my business when they decide to allow male adolescents to share the female shower in our schools. I have grand daughters in the school system in Illinois. Many option were made available to this child that would have allowed him not to have to shower with other males he turned them down unless it was optional for him to shower with the girls. 

I agree with transgenderism like many mental issues. I do not think changing society to accommodate their condition is the answer. What other mental disorders do we make societal changes to accommodate?

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> Have you got a link to a court case that gives them permission?
> All the links I have followed lead to agency decisions not court decisions.
> 
> It becomes my business when they decide to allow male adolescents to share the female shower in our schools. I have grand daughters in the school system in Illinois. Many option were made available to this child that would have allowed him not to have to shower with other males he turned them down unless it was optional for him to shower with the girls.
> 
> I agree with transgenderism like many mental issues. I do not think changing society to accommodate their condition is the answer. What other mental disorders do we make societal changes to accommodate?
> 
> Jim


You realize that genetic issues are not necessarily mental ones, right? There are five that have been conclusively linked to genetics (depression, bipolar disorder, ADHD, schizophrenia and autism) LGBT are not on the list. 

I'm not researching the court case for you, make your own sammich.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> The court case in the OP indicates it doesn't, at least right now. I'm sure that one of the nontransgender's parents can also file suit tho.
> 
> I don't think everyone has read the article in the original link so here are it's pertinent points.
> 
> "The federal government has followed suit. Last year, the Obama administration announced that _transgender people are protected from discrimination under the Civil Rights Act_.
> 
> But the report announced Monday by the Department of Education might highlight how thin the line is that schools must follow.
> 
> Like other districts faced with this dilemma, the district tried to find a negotiated solution by putting up privacy curtains in the girls' locker room. Similar arrangements have kept schools from running afoul of anti-discrimination violations.
> 
> At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so.
> 
> The use of curtains might be OK, but the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains, the Department of Education report states.
> 
> "*All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right*," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement.
> 
> The student, who hasn't been publicly identified, participates on a girls' sports team, but has been required to change and shower separately from her teammates and classmates."


 So, showering is considered a school program and activity? And, if so, why are not the cheerleaders and the football team allowed to shower together? 

We used to have common sense in this country. Now we have to sue and take the chance that we get a judge with common sense in order for our children to be allowed to shower in uni-sex locker room.

Yet another reason why my daughter will NEVER step foot in a public school.


----------



## arabian knight

Yes this is one way to get more and more home schooled children that is no lie.
And the less and less will be in public schools THEY will be hurting for finds as the enrollment goes down so does the funding. So this is in a way going to for once HURT these liberal ideas that is running rampant in this country. LOL


----------



## mmoetc

There's actually a very simple solution pointed to in the decision cited. Put up privacy curtains and give all students the choice of whether to shower behind them or not. All get treated the same. All have the same choice. No one is singled out by the school for "special" treatment. Problem solved.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> So, showering is considered a school program and activity? And, if so, why are not the cheerleaders and the football team allowed to shower together?
> 
> We used to have common sense in this country. Now we have to sue and take the chance that we get a judge with common sense in order for our children to be allowed to shower in uni-sex locker room.
> 
> *Yet another reason why my daughter will NEVER step foot in a public school.*


And that's the option that everyone has.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> You realize that genetic issues are not necessarily mental ones, right? There are five that have been conclusively linked to genetics (depression, bipolar disorder, ADHD, schizophrenia and autism) LGBT are not on the list.
> 
> I'm not researching the court case for you, make your own sammich.


I do realize genetic issues are not necessarily mental ones. I didn't mention genetics at all. Transgenderism is a mental disorder. 
I'm not asking you to research anything. Just requesting a link to the court case you keep referring to. I am assuming you have seen it since you have mentioned it a couple of times. 

Jim


----------



## HDRider

Mental disorders abound.


----------



## Jim Bunton

I think we are getting too hung up on the shower thing when we should be asking why he is allowed to play on a girls sports team, or more precisely Why other girls teams are forced to play against a team with a male player on it? Do they get to put a male player on their team when they play against this school?

Jim


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> And that's the option that everyone has.


 I only wish I had the option NOT to help fund the crap holes.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> Look you are all about this right or that right. Biologically this person is male, correct? Do girls have the right to a private locker room, or, does this one person get to trump the rights of the many? Reasonable accommodations are one thing, let her shower, in the girls locker room, alone, or something like that. But, *forcing unwilling girls (as most are underage, their parents rights are also in danger) to shower* with a person who is biologically male, violates their rights.


I didn't see where anyone is being forced to take a shower at all.
I saw a ruling that said they can't stop one person from using those showers if they want.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> So, showering is considered a school program and activity? And, if so,* why are not the cheerleaders and the football team allowed to shower together? *
> 
> We used to have common sense in this country. Now we have to sue and take the chance that we get a judge with common sense in order for our children to be allowed to shower in uni-sex locker room.
> 
> Yet another reason why my daughter will NEVER step foot in a public school.


They would if they were all* transgender*, but since they aren't it is irrelevant.

Context matters, and unrealistic scenarios don't


----------



## Irish Pixie

Bearfootfarm said:


> I didn't see where anyone is being forced to take a shower at all.
> I saw a ruling that said they can't stop one person from using those showers if they want.


Yup. And in the specific article she couldn't be _forced_ to use the curtained off area if she didn't want to. No forced showers mentioned, in the original article anyway.


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> I didn't see where anyone is being forced to take a shower at all.
> I saw a ruling that said they can't stop one person from using those showers if they want.


 Can they stop the football team from showering with the cheerleaders? I mean, if they can't stop one person from using the showers, how can they stop anybody? 

Also, are not those girls entitled to a "safe space" where they can shower without the worry of some dude walking in on them? (yes, I am going to say it, if a person has testicles and a penis, he is a dude. I can say that I am a tree, but, without roots and leaves, that statement is not convincing.)


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> Can they stop the football team from showering with the cheerleaders? I mean, if they can't stop one person from using the showers, how can they stop anybody?
> 
> Also, are not those girls entitled to a "safe space" where they can shower without the worry of some dude walking in on them? (yes, I am going to say it, if a person has testicles and a penis, he is a dude. I can say that I am a tree, but, without roots and leaves, that statement is not convincing.)


That's already been answered, so let's not run in circles


----------



## wr

Jim Bunton said:


> I think we are getting too hung up on the shower thing when we should be asking why he is allowed to play on a girls sports team, or more precisely Why other girls teams are forced to play against a team with a male player on it? Do they get to put a male player on their team when they play against this school?
> 
> Jim



Are US school sports teams still gender specified? Even my little county has the option for kids of either gender to play on a team, as long as they qualify.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I do realize genetic issues are not necessarily mental ones. I didn't mention genetics at all. Transgenderism is a mental disorder.
> I'm not asking you to research anything. Just requesting a link to the court case you keep referring to. I am assuming you have seen it since you have mentioned it a couple of times.
> 
> Jim


No, transgenderism is a genetic anomaly. As is homosexuality and bisexuality. All are thought to be influenced by environment as well.

"The new DSM eliminates the term "gender identity disorder," long considered stigmatizing by mental health specialists and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender activists."

Here's a link: http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...onger-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/


----------



## Irish Pixie

wr said:


> Are US school sports teams still gender specified? Even my little county has the option for kids of either gender to play on a team, as long as they qualify.


They can, but it's not common, at least in my area. Every so often you'll hear of a traditionally male sport having a girl on it, even less common is a girls team with a boy on it.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Generally speaking it is an option only if the school does not offer the sport to both sexes. Girl's basketball and boy's basketball

Jim


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> They would if they were all* transgender*, but since they aren't it is irrelevant.
> 
> Context matters, and unrealistic scenarios don't


 So the transgendered get special treatment. It would seem that some ARE more equal than others.


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> Except for this one:


Trouble with understanding the words: "I do not care to..."

The paragraph containing that preamble states why.


----------



## wr

Jim Bunton said:


> Generally speaking it is an option only if the school does not offer the sport to both sexes. Girl's basketball and boy's basketball
> 
> Jim


Ours is more based on ability to make the team. There are a couple girls playing hockey right now and while they could have joined ringette or lacrosse, they simply prefer hockey and they felt the girl's team wasn't as competitive. Their skills meet or exceed the rest of their team.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> "*All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right*," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement.


I left your bolding... So, hygienic care of one's body is delineated as a "School Program and/or activity" - there are so many things wrong with this decision that I have no real fear of its widespread enforcement.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> So the transgendered get special treatment. It would seem that some ARE more equal than others.


No, they don't. 
They get the same treatment as all the transgenders


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> I left your bolding... So, hygienic care of one's body is delineated as a "School Program and/or activity" - there are so many things wrong with this decision that I have no real fear of its widespread enforcement.


You can do anything you'd like, it still remains that transgender kids can't be treated differently.


----------



## Shine

Jim Bunton said:


> I do realize genetic issues are not necessarily mental ones. I didn't mention genetics at all. Transgenderism is a mental disorder.
> I'm not asking you to research anything. Just requesting a link to the court case you keep referring to. I am assuming you have seen it since you have mentioned it a couple of times.
> 
> Jim


The only court case is the one that declares that gender confused people cannot be discriminated against. The BOE decision is something that says that telling them that they cannot do everything that a girl does is discrimination. I guess, using this logic that we taxpayers will have to foot the bill for the transplanting of the female reproductive organs because if one of these people go to the emergency room and tells the nurse that they are having labor pains, when the nurse says "Get outta here you kook" then the hospital gets sued... lol


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, they don't.


The gender confused boys get to shower with the girls at this school, tell me that's available to all the boys then we can agree on your viewpoint.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> The gender confused boys get to shower with the girls at this school, tell me that's available to all the boys then we can agree on your viewpoint.


That's already been addressed more than once

It's obvious you aren't really reading posts since you just keep repeating the same tired arguments from before.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> No, transgenderism is a genetic anomaly. http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...onger-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/


You realize that there are a number of groups that are trying very hard to get Pedophilia defined as a genetic condition. This does not bode well for our children. This is along the same path that you are standing up for, how far will you go??


----------



## Shine

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's already been addressed more than once
> 
> It's obvious you aren't really reading posts since you just keep repeating the same tired arguments from before.


Believe me, I have read every post. If one boy is allowed to do something then it is discrimination to deny other boys the opportunity. Having a boy just say that they are a female and then dress the part does not make them a girl. You're so hip on equal treatment, I fail to see how we should trust the statement that a minor is not really the gender that they are. Show me a medical test that validates their assumption then we might go further.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> You realize that there are a number of groups that are trying very hard to get Pedophilia defined as a genetic condition. This does not bode well for our children. This is along the same path that you are standing up for, how far will you go??


Pedophilia is illegal, it always will be, whether it's decided it's genetic or not. I do not agree that adults having sex with children is in any way acceptable. 

Are you trying to say that because LGBT is genetic, and since groups are trying to get pedophilia classified as genetic, they are comparable in any way?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Believe me, I have read every post. If one boy is allowed to do something then it is discrimination to deny other boys the opportunity. Having a boy just say that they are a female and then dress the part does not make them a girl. You're so hip on equal treatment, I fail to see how we should trust the statement that a minor is not really the gender that they are. Show me a medical test that validates their assumption then we might go further.


No one has to prove their gender or sexual orientation to _you_. There will be a set of criteria (that you will not be involved in) used by the school administration. They will decide.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Shine said:


> Believe me, *I have read every post*. If one boy is allowed to do something then it is discrimination to deny other boys the opportunity. Having a boy just say that they are a female and then dress the part does not make them a girl. You're so hip on equal treatment, I fail to see how we should trust the statement that a minor is not really the gender that they are. Show me a medical test that validates their assumption then we might go further.


And yet you keep repeating it all as if it hadn't been addressed.
I'm not playing the silly "run in circles" game with you.


----------



## farmrbrown

Farmerga said:


> Can they stop the football team from showering with the cheerleaders? I mean, if they can't stop one person from using the showers, how can they stop anybody?
> 
> Also, are not those girls entitled to a "safe space" where they can shower without the worry of some dude walking in on them? (yes, I am going to say it, if a person has testicles and a penis, he is a dude. I can say that I am a tree, but, without roots and leaves, that statement is not convincing.)


This rely was worth repeating, although for some, it hasn't been accepted as the logical answer.



Bearfootfarm said:


> That's already been answered, so let's not run in circles


Yes, we have answered it again and again.
It's quite simple. If a judge gives an absurd ruling, you ignore it and continue living your life by the common sense rules you were taught. Period.
It kinda gives a better context to the phrase, "Grow a pair".





Shine said:


> You realize that there are a number of groups that are trying very hard to get Pedophilia defined as a genetic condition. This does not bode well for our children. This is along the same path that you are standing up for, how far will you go??



This question has been answered as well, although the opposing side denies it, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
They won't stop, no matter how many accommodations are made, because it will never be enough.
People outside the norms of society feel an internal pressure. They want to be like "everyone else" but can't, so the only resolution in their eyes, is to make society be like them.
It IS really that simple, but it will be denied. It's far easier to vilify everyone and imply there is something wrong with society that has to be "fixed".


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Yes, we have answered it again and again.
> It's quite simple. If a judge gives an absurd ruling, you *ignore it* and continue living your life by the common sense rules you were taught. Period.
> It kinda gives a better context to the phrase, *"Grow a pair"*.


So your answer is to ignore court rulings if you don't agree, and become a transgender


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, they don't.
> They get the same treatment as all the transgenders


 So, let me get this straight. Boy "x" cannot shower in the girls locker room because he knows he is a boy.

Boy "y" can shower in the girls locker room because he thinks he is a girl. 

That just seems like Boy "Y" is more equal than Boy "X".


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Pedophilia is illegal, it always will be, whether it's decided it's genetic or not. I do not agree that adults having sex with children is in any way acceptable.
> 
> Are you trying to say that because LGBT is genetic, and since groups are trying to get pedophilia classified as genetic, they are comparable in any way?


No but you are hanging your hat on the "Genetics" of gender confused people as some kind of bellwether of validity, just wanted to see if you are going to follow that trend to its logical conclusion. Wait, isn't Sexual exposure a crime in Chicago? Wow, how about the following Statutes in Chicago? 1536, 1570, 1585, 1720 & 1725 - these all deal with public nudity and would be considered controlling in the sense of School locker rooms/showers. Do we throw these out?


----------



## wiscto

So my question is... If the school installs a centrally located non-gender restroom, does this drop?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> No but you are hanging your hat on the "Genetics" of gender confused people as some kind of bellwether of validity, just wanted to see if you are going to follow that trend to its logical conclusion. Wait, isn't Sexual exposure a crime in Chicago? Wow, how about the following Statutes in Chicago? 1536, 1570, 1585, 1720 & 1725 - these all deal with public nudity and would be considered controlling in the sense of School locker rooms/showers. Do we throw these out?


I'm not hanging my hat on anything, I wanted to make it clear that transgenderism is not a mental illness. 

I'm not playing the circle game with you either.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> *Pedophilia is illegal, it always will be*, whether it's decided it's genetic or not. *I do not agree that adults having sex with children is in any way acceptable.
> *
> Are you trying to say that because LGBT is genetic, and since groups are trying to get pedophilia classified as genetic, they are comparable in any way?


 
How do you know that? There was a time, in certain cultures, where it was accepted and encouraged. 

Who died an made you emperor?

With the slopes being greased on an industrial scale, I put NOTHING out of the path of the current "culture". 

(To be clear, pedophilia is disgusting and IMO, should be punishable by death)


----------



## Bearfootfarm

wiscto said:


> So my question is... If the school installs a centrally located non-gender restroom, does this drop?


Why would it, when it has nothing to do with "restrooms"?


----------



## Farmerga

wiscto said:


> So my question is... If the school installs a centrally located non-gender restroom, does this drop?


 A non-gendered shower, in addition to the two gendered ones, would likely be accepted.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> So, *let me get this straight*. Boy "x" cannot shower in the girls locker room because he knows he is a boy.
> 
> Boy "y" can shower in the girls locker room because he thinks he is a girl.
> 
> That just seems like Boy "Y" is more equal than Boy "X".


Scroll back and read, because the answers aren't going to change from the first time


----------



## arabian knight




----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> How do you know that? There was a time, in certain cultures, where it was accepted and encouraged.
> 
> Who died an made you emperor?
> 
> With the slopes being greased on an industrial scale, I put NOTHING out of the path of the current "culture".
> 
> (To be clear, pedophilia is disgusting and IMO, should be punishable by death)


I'm sorry, I was sure that it was very clear that it was my opinion as I was asked specifically "You realize that there are a number of groups that are trying very hard to get Pedophilia defined as a genetic condition. This does not bode well for our children. This is along the same path that you are standing up for, *how far will you go*???"

It was my opinion, I was not stating fact.


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> Scroll back and read, because the answers aren't going to change from the first time


 Oh I know what was said before. And what was said is that some are more equal than others. Transgendered get special treatment, not equal treatment. A boy, who thinks he is a girl, gets more rights and privileges than a boy who knows he is a boy. That is the fact of the situation.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> Oh I know what was said before. And what was said is that some are more equal than others. Transgendered get special treatment, not equal treatment. A boy, who thinks he is a girl, gets more rights and privileges than a boy who knows he is a boy. That is the fact of the situation.


Like any other protected class (gay, women, blacks, disabled, etc) transgender needs government involvement to force people to treat them as equals. 

Maybe someday there won't be a need...


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> Like any other protected class (gay, women, blacks, disabled, etc) transgender needs government involvement to force people to treat them as equals.
> 
> Maybe someday there won't be a need...


 The thought of a protected class flies in the face of the Constitutional concept of "equal protection under the law" and is, as I have stated, a case of some being more equal than others.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> *Oh I know what was said before*. And what was said is that some are more equal than others. Transgendered get special treatment, not equal treatment. A boy, who thinks he is a girl, gets more rights and privileges than a boy who knows he is a boy. That is the fact of the situation.


Then why this compulsion to keep *repeating* it in nearly every post?


----------



## arabian knight

Farmerga said:


> The thought of a protected class flies in the face of the Constitutional concept of "equal protection under the law" and is, as I have stated, a case of some being more equal than others.


 So true there are not ANY Protected class. BUT these liberals seem to think THEY not only want to be treated SPECIAL but put up on a pedestal at the same time so they can Shove it in the face of Americans and proclaim " Look at us, we have special rights now. BALONEY in the first degree.~!


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> The thought of a protected class flies in the face of the Constitutional concept of "equal protection under the law" and is, as I have stated, a case of some being more equal than others.


Yet it's law... and it has to be abided.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Not worth taking the time to figure out what was trying to be said...


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> Yet it's law... and it has to be abided.


 And if that doesn't fill your heart with dread and disgust, little will. "Oh, it matters not that the law flies in the face of the Constitution, as long as we get to force our values on everyone, it is fine." Does that pretty much sum up your side of the argument?


----------



## MO_cows

From the article:
_Like other districts faced with this dilemma, the district tried to find a negotiated solution by putting up privacy curtains in the girls' locker room. Similar arrangements have kept schools from running afoul of anti-discrimination violations. 

_
_At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so. 

_
_The use of curtains might be OK, but the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains, the Department of Education report states. 

_
_"All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement._

So this really is a case of the transgender student's rights trumping the rights of the rest of the girls. If the school can't enforce their policy for the transgender kid to use the privacy curtain, then all the rest of the girls in the locker room get exposed to a male body. I don't care how female the brain says one is, if they still have the junk dangling, the other young girls shouldn't have to be exposed to it. There is simply no acknowledging the reality of the student's still-male body in this decision. How "equal" is it to take away the innocence of many girls to accommodate one extra special snowflake who wasn't satisfied with having to use a privacy curtain?


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> Then why this compulsion to keep *repeating* it in nearly every post?


 The fleeting hope that someone, who supports this silly mess, will admit the truth, that some are more equal than others. That they are not looking for equal protection they are looking for special protection.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> And if that doesn't fill your heart with dread and disgust, little will. "Oh, it matters not that the law flies in the face of the Constitution, as long as we get to force our values on everyone, it is fine." Does that pretty much sum up your side of the argument?


SCOTUS ruled on it. Do you think it was just magicked into being?

We have to have an authority and SCOTUS is it, like it or not.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> The fleeting hope that someone, who supports this silly mess, will admit the truth, that some are more equal than others. That they are not looking for equal protection they are looking for special protection.


Nope. I explained it once, the government had to force people, business, etc. to treat certain groups of people fairly. I just don't see what is so hard to understand... I can link something if that would help?


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> SCOTUS ruled on it. Do you think it was just magicked into being?
> 
> We have to have an authority and SCOTUS is it, like it or not.


 We are supposed to have brains and the ability to know when the SCOTUS is full of crap. 

BTW, what case? I can't find a single case where the legality of the concept of protected classes, in general, or, LBGT inclusion in to said classes, specifically, have been heard by the SCOTUS.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> We are supposed to have brains and the ability to know when the SCOTUS is full of crap.
> 
> BTW, what case? I can't find a single case where the legality of the concept of protected classes, in general, or, LBGT inclusion in to said classes, specifically, have been heard by the SCOTUS.


Isn't it great that everyone can have an opinion? 

Make your own sammich. I'm not interested.

I made your sammich. Don't take it for granted. "Instead, the five justices in the majority have made sexual orientation a full-fledged protected class under the 5th (and presumably 14th) Amendment. That is indeed truly historic." http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/supreme-court-declares-gays-a-protected-class/


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. I explained it once, *the government had to force people*, business, etc. to treat certain groups of people fairly. I just don't see what is so hard to understand... I can link something if that would help?


 So, it is ok to treat others unfairly in order to treat these groups "fairly"?

The bolded portion of the statement above, should make every freedom loving American dry heave.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> Isn't it great that everyone can have an opinion?
> 
> Make your own sammich. I'm not interested.


I tried to "Make my own sammich" but, I couldn't find a record of such a case that YOU said existed. So, since you brought it up, it should be easy for you to find the case and let us all see it. Correct?

Read beyond the title. They didn't declare gays a protected class, they struck down DOMA, putting them on EQUAL footing with everyone else, they did not give them special rights that everyone else doesn't have.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> I tried to "Make my own sammich" but, I couldn't find a record of such a case that YOU said existed. So, since you brought it up, it should be easy for you to find the case and let us all see it. Correct?


You aren't a very good sammich maker, are you?  I edited my prior post.

I'm not going to argue if transgender is "gay" or not...


----------



## wr

Wouldn't it have been easier to just require ALL kids to use the privacy curtains rather than making things more complicated?


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> You aren't a very good sammich maker, are you?  I edited my prior post.
> 
> I'm not going to argue if transgender is "gay" or not...


 As I edited mine.:spinsmiley:

I don't remember bringing up the distinction between transgender and gay.


----------



## Farmerga

wr said:


> Wouldn't it have been easier to just require ALL kids to use the privacy curtains rather than making things more complicated?


 Yes, but, I doubt very seriously that it would have worked.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> I tried to "Make my own sammich" but, I couldn't find a record of such a case that YOU said existed. So, since you brought it up, it should be easy for you to find the case and let us all see it. Correct?
> 
> Read beyond the title. They didn't declare gays a protected class, they struck down DOMA, putting them on EQUAL footing with everyone else, they did not give them special rights that everyone else doesn't have.


That isn't how I see it- and I did read the entire article. 

Aren't opinions great? Argue with SCOTUS.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> That isn't how I see it- and I did read the entire article.
> 
> Aren't opinions great? Argue with SCOTUS.


 There is nothing of my opinion to it. There is nothing in opinion that speaks to the legality of protected classes, or, adds the LBGT community to the list.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> There is nothing of my opinion to it. There is nothing in opinion that speaks to the legality of protected classes, or, adds the LBGT community to the list.


Argue with SCOTUS. I had nothing to do with it.


----------



## Evons hubby

Farmerga said:


> So, it is ok to treat others unfairly in order to treat these groups "fairly"?
> 
> The bolded portion of the statement above, should make every freedom loving American dry heave.


Yeppers, the government shouldn't have forced anyone to treat people fairly... We should have had enough decency to treat everyone fairly to start with. As to your first comment.... No one is being treated unfairly by being asked to treat others fairly.


----------



## JJ Grandits

Irish Pixie said:


> How can any of that happen when the transgender girl has court permission to be in the locker room?
> 
> So you agree that the brain can be wired differently, and tell you that you are a different sex. Good. Now tell me how that is any different than the 1000s of other genetic anomalies?
> 
> You don't have to agree with transgenderism. Aren't transgender? Fine, just mind your own business.


How can it happen? Court permission does not change the faith of the Muslim boys. Please answer my question. 
You seem to put a lot of faith in the courts. What if the court ruled against this person? Would you quietly accept it?

By the way, what courts are you talking about? I've only heard of a grand proclamation by the administration of our Dictator in Chief. Was there a court trial?

Mind my own business????????
I decide what is my business and what is not.
You do admit it is a genetic anomaly, ie, a mistake, a deviation from the norm, a biological error. That's nice. Now lets get these people the help they need.

Bruce Jenner is not a woman. He has XY chromosomes and male genitalia. He is a really screwed up guy with a boob job. Nothing more.


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> How can it happen? Court permission does not change the faith of the Muslim boys. Please answer my question.
> You seem to put a lot of faith in the courts. What if the court ruled against this person? Would you quietly accept it?
> 
> By the way, what courts are you talking about? I've only heard of a grand proclamation by the administration of our Dictator in Chief. Was there a court trial?
> 
> Mind my own business????????
> I decide what is my business and what is not.
> You do admit it is a genetic anomaly, ie, a mistake, a deviation from the norm, a biological error. That's nice. Now lets get these people the help they need.
> 
> Bruce Jenner is not a woman. He has XY chromosomes and male genitalia. He is a really screwed up guy with a boob job. Nothing more.


Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman. Who are _you_ to contradict her? 

FYI, an anomaly is a variation, not a mistake. Like blue eyes and red hair. I'm glad I could help you with that. 

If the court ruled the other way, and it bothered me, I wouldn't whine and call people names on the internet. I'd be writing letters, calling my government official, etc... Actually doing something about it. 

Muslims have lived in this country for over at least a half century, I don't hear them whining about this. Why are you? Are you muslim? MYOB.


----------



## JJ Grandits

And if I was, why should I surrender my first Amendment rights?

I appreciate your comments, but you do not answer questions. How can we come to a consensus if you keep hiding your truth? I think my questions were reasonable and in an attempt to reach greater understanding of the issue they deserve an answer.

BTW, Bruce is a man. I can prove it biologically. After all, it is a scientific fact, not my opinion.


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> And if I was, why should I surrender my first Amendment rights?
> 
> I appreciate your comments, but you do not answer questions. How can we come to a consensus if you keep hiding your truth? I think my questions were reasonable and in an attempt to reach greater understanding of the issue they deserve an answer.
> 
> BTW, Bruce is a man. I can prove it biologically. After all, it is a scientific fact, not my opinion.


You don't choose what sex another person is, they do. You have absolutely no control over it. Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman and she would know, right? 

Hiding what truth, and not answering what questions?


----------



## JJ Grandits

Must the Muslim boys surrender their first amendment rights by having a girl who "believes" she is a boy enter their shower?

Nobody chooses their sex. Nor do they choose their race or their species.


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> Must the Muslim boys surrender their first amendment rights by having a girl who "believes" she is a boy enter their shower?
> 
> Nobody chooses their sex. Nor do they choose their race or their species.


I dunno. I'm not muslim. Why would you care anyway? Are you muslim? Like I said, muslims have lived in this country for over a half a century and don't have hissy fits over scantily clad women with uncovered hair. That's against their religion as well, isn't it?

Are you going to answer my question? Are you muslim? Why do you care?

Transgender people become the sex they identify with. It's still none of your business.


----------



## keenataz

Irish Pixie said:


> I dunno. I'm not muslim. Why would you care anyway? Are you muslim? Like I said, muslims have lived in this country for over a half a century and don't have hissy fits over scantily clad women with uncovered hair. That's against their religion as well, isn't it?
> 
> Are you going to answer my question? Are you muslim? Why do you care?
> 
> Transgender people become the sex they identify with. It's still none of your business.


Find it very amusing how some are all of a sudden concerned about the rights of muslims. Hopefully this will become a new trend with the more conservative members and Irish Pixie and some of other liberals can just smile.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman. Who are _you_ to contradict her?


Jenner can call himself a tree if he wants to. Doesn't mean he is a tree. It does mean he's out of touch with reality and needs mental help.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> You don't choose what sex another person is, they do. You have absolutely no control over it. Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman and she would know, right?
> 
> Hiding what truth, and not answering what questions?


Alrighty then... We decide what sex we are. LOL This is totally ludicrous...

That makes things totally different because I really feel like I am part male, part female. Now I get to experience the full portion of all the protected classes. Oh. My. Goodness. I guess the premise of intelligence has left the building. <sarc off>


----------



## keenataz

Txsteader said:


> Jenner can call himself a tree if he wants to. Doesn't mean he is a tree. It does mean he's out of touch with reality and needs mental help.[/QUOTE
> 
> I am trying to be nice, but remember a saying something like "Don't judge until you have walked in their shoes"?
> 
> I myself cannot understand why Bruce Jenner changed to Kaitlyn Jenner, same as I cannot how someone can be gay. And why? Because I am a straight man. It is not part of my reality.
> 
> But it is part of theirs. And no they don't need mental help for it. They may need help to get where they want to go, but not because they are different.
> 
> I think a little bit of kindness and understanding towards those who are different and are having no negative impact on someone else is a good thing to have.
> 
> But I am just a crazy liberal, who to some here need mental help.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> You can do anything you'd like, it still remains that transgender kids can't be treated differently.


wrong - this boy is going to get the option to shower with the girls. The other boys do not. Can you prove to me via a medical test that he is actually a girl? Or does this "premise" rely on psycho-bable to become valid?


----------



## Shine

keenataz said:


> Txsteader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jenner can call himself a tree if he wants to. Doesn't mean he is a tree. It does mean he's out of touch with reality and needs mental help.[/QUOTE
> 
> I am trying to be nice, but remember a saying something like "Don't judge until you have walked in their shoes"?
> 
> I myself cannot understand why Bruce Jenner changed to Kaitlyn Jenner, same as I cannot how someone can be gay. And why? Because I am a straight man. It is not part of my reality.
> 
> But it is part of theirs. And no they don't need mental help for it. They may need help to get where they want to go, but not because they are different.
> 
> I think a little bit of kindness and understanding towards those who are different and are having no negative impact on someone else is a good thing to have.
> 
> But I am just a crazy liberal, who to some here need mental help.
> 
> 
> 
> The decision by the BOE does impact millions of children. If this translates to all parts of America, the number of people who will have their rights trampled upon because .033% the population want to be treated differently than normal boys and girls are treated will be in the millions.
> 
> Boys shower with boys and girls shower with girls. 'nuff said.
Click to expand...


----------



## Shine

Son of a gun, Psychologists still think that it is a disorder:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-dysphoria

"Individual and family counseling is recommended for children, and individual or couples therapy is recommended for adults. Sex reassignment through surgery and hormonal therapy is an option, but severe problems may persist after this form of treatment. A better outcome is associated with the early diagnosis and treatment."

See above, Counseling is recommended for children, wonder how much counseling this child has received. Wonder how much counseling the people that made this ruling have received...

From WebMD:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria?page=2

"Diagnosis and treatment are important. People with gender dysphoria have higher rates of mental health conditions. Some estimates say that 71% of people with gender dysphoria will have some other mental health diagnosis in their lifetime. That includes mood disorders, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and suicide attempts."

And a Journal published by Hindawi that finds that there is more than a normal rate of Schizophrenia with this with gender identity disorders:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/schizort/2014/463757/

Beginning with the observation that the comorbidity of schizophrenia and GID/GD is greater than would be expected, it is seen that patients with either condition may exhibit symptoms or traits of the other. Several converging lines of evidence, involving cerebral sexual dimorphism, laterality, prenatal infection, and childhood adversity, suggest that both these disorders have their roots in abnormal brain development and that their overlap may be explained by shared risk factors (such as Toxoplasma infection) or mechanisms (such as abnormal lateralization and sexual brain differentiation) via common biochemical pathways, such as prenatal hormonal imbalances or reduced BDNF expression and release.


----------



## arabian knight

keenataz said:


> Hopefully this will become a new trend with the more conservative members and Irish Pixie and some of other liberals can just smile.


Smile? They ALL should be hanging there heads in SHAME for what they are doing to this once great country.~!!!!!!!


----------



## Irish Pixie

keenataz said:


> I am trying to be nice, but remember a saying something like "Don't judge until you have walked in their shoes"?
> 
> I myself cannot understand why Bruce Jenner changed to Kaitlyn Jenner, same as I cannot how someone can be gay. And why? Because I am a straight man. It is not part of my reality.
> 
> But it is part of theirs. And no they don't need mental help for it. They may need help to get where they want to go, but not because they are different.
> 
> I think a little bit of kindness and understanding towards those who are different and are having no negative impact on someone else is a good thing to have.
> 
> But I am just a crazy liberal, who to some here need mental help.


You are a caring and compassionate human being, and more people should be like you. :bow:


----------



## MO_cows

keenataz said:


> Txsteader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jenner can call himself a tree if he wants to. Doesn't mean he is a tree. It does mean he's out of touch with reality and needs mental help.[/QUOTE
> 
> I am trying to be nice, but remember a saying something like "Don't judge until you have walked in their shoes"?
> 
> I myself cannot understand why Bruce Jenner changed to Kaitlyn Jenner, same as I cannot how someone can be gay. And why? Because I am a straight man. It is not part of my reality.
> 
> But it is part of theirs. And no they don't need mental help for it. They may need help to get where they want to go, but not because they are different.
> 
> I think a little bit of kindness and understanding towards those who are different and are* having no negative impact on someone else *is a good thing to have.
> 
> But I am just a crazy liberal, who to some here need mental help.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the key. And in this case the rest of the class is negatively impacted. The way I understand this story, the trans kid took legal action because the school expected her to use a privacy curtain screening her still-biologically-male body from the girls in the class. So the rest of the class will lose their innocence because the trans kid still has male parts. The rights and sensibilities of the rest of the class has been sacrificed for the trans gender kid, and that isn't right. Using the privacy screen was a reasonable accommodation for a kid with male body parts to participate with a girls sports team or phys ed class.
Click to expand...


----------



## JJ Grandits

Irish Pixie said:


> I dunno. I'm not muslim. Why would you care anyway? Are you muslim? Like I said, muslims have lived in this country for over a half a century and don't have hissy fits over scantily clad women with uncovered hair. That's against their religion as well, isn't it?
> 
> Are you going to answer my question? Are you muslim? Why do you care?
> 
> Transgender people become the sex they identify with. It's still none of your business.


Answer the questions and stop playing sophomoric run around. You really do no honor to your reputation. Please explain why it is your business but not mine? 

As far as your questions go, no I am not a muslim. Nor am I Black. But I will speak out against anyone who infringes on their rights for the sake of some perverted political plan. This is also why I care. The lefts hypocrisy, which you have exemplified so wonderfully in your posts demands that any reasonable person must respond.

Now please, answer my questions about the rights of the other people in the shower. 
Why do the so called rights of a transgender person outweigh the rights of others?
When you are talking about individual rights it's my business and everybody else's too.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> Jenner can call himself a tree if he wants to. Doesn't mean he is a tree. It does mean he's out of touch with reality and needs mental help.


I'll never understand how someone can be hateful, callous, and unfeeling toward another human being. That's a real mental illness.


----------



## keenataz

MO_cows said:


> keenataz said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the key. And in this case the rest of the class is negatively impacted. The way I understand this story, the trans kid took legal action because the school expected her to use a privacy curtain screening her still-biologically-male body from the girls in the class. So the rest of the class will lose their innocence because the trans kid still has male parts. The rights and sensibilities of the rest of the class has been sacrificed for the trans gender kid, and that isn't right. Using the privacy screen was a reasonable accommodation for a kid with male body parts to participate with a girls sports team or phys ed class.
> 
> 
> 
> I was speaking more in the general terms not this specific.
> 
> In this case I agree with you. Sometimes compromise is the sensible way to go. But I am not sure these kids are going to lose their innocence?
Click to expand...


----------



## keenataz

Shine said:


> Son of a gun, Psychologists still think that it is a disorder:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-dysphoria
> 
> "Individual and family counseling is recommended for children, and individual or couples therapy is recommended for adults. Sex reassignment through surgery and hormonal therapy is an option, but severe problems may persist after this form of treatment. A better outcome is associated with the early diagnosis and treatment."
> 
> See above, Counseling is recommended for children, wonder how much counseling this child has received. Wonder how much counseling the people that made this ruling have received...
> 
> From WebMD:
> 
> http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria?page=2
> 
> "Diagnosis and treatment are important. People with gender dysphoria have higher rates of mental health conditions. Some estimates say that 71% of people with gender dysphoria will have some other mental health diagnosis in their lifetime. That includes mood disorders, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and suicide attempts."



Of course they need counselling they are going through what I believe would be great torment. And this torment is causing mood disorders.

The transgender is not a mental illness but the stress and anxiety can produce mental illness. Although I am not sure why you have schizophrenia listed.


----------



## Irish Pixie

JJ Grandits said:


> Answer the questions and stop playing sophomoric run around. You really do no honor to your reputation. Please explain why it is your business but not mine?
> 
> As far as your questions go, no I am not a muslim. Nor am I Black. But I will speak out against anyone who infringes on their rights for the sake of some perverted political plan. This is also why I care. The lefts hypocrisy, which you have exemplified so wonderfully in your posts demands that any reasonable person must respond.
> 
> Now please, answer my questions about the rights of the other people in the shower.
> Why do the so called rights of a transgender person outweigh the rights of others?
> When you are talking about individual rights it's my business and everybody else's too.


Since when do you speak out for muslims? 

This post doesn't look like you like muslims at all:


JJ Grandits said:


> Well geeze, those Muslim folks sure do have a reason to be angry. Besides, that clip was obviously taken out of context. Afterall, anyone can put up subtitles. That guy could have been a salesman pitching his new weight reducing belt. The one with the wires.


I just think it suits your agenda to speak out for muslims to use them on this one issue, and that's sad. 

I've answered all your questions, and I'm not playing the circle game with you.


----------



## Shine

keenataz said:


> Of course they need counselling they are going through what I believe would be great torment. And this torment is causing mood disorders.
> 
> The transgender is not a mental illness but the stress and anxiety can produce mental illness. Although I am not sure why you have schizophrenia listed.


"I" do not have schizophrenia in there - read the article, it is in conflict with your understanding.


----------



## mreynolds

keenataz said:


> Although I am not sure why you have schizophrenia listed.


Well I saw why.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Since when do you speak out for muslims?
> 
> This post doesn't look like you like muslims at all:
> 
> I just think it suits your agenda to speak out for muslims to use them on this one issue, and that's sad.
> 
> I've answered all your questions, and I'm not playing the circle game with you.


Having a discussion with you and expecting an equal and balanced "give-take" relationship is like searching for the end of a mobius strip.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Having a discussion with you and expecting an equal and balanced "give-take" relationship is like searching for the end of a mobius strip.


Clever!


----------



## mmoetc

JJ Grandits said:


> Answer the questions and stop playing sophomoric run around. You really do no honor to your reputation. Please explain why it is your business but not mine?
> 
> As far as your questions go, no I am not a muslim. Nor am I Black. But I will speak out against anyone who infringes on their rights for the sake of some perverted political plan. This is also why I care. The lefts hypocrisy, which you have exemplified so wonderfully in your posts demands that any reasonable person must respond.
> 
> Now please, answer my questions about the rights of the other people in the shower.
> Why do the so called rights of a transgender person outweigh the rights of others?
> When you are talking about individual rights it's my business and everybody else's too.


If you read the decision it respects everyone's rights. It doesn't say there cannot be privacy curtains just that one cannot be installed and made mandatory for only one person. There's nothing to stop any other student who might feel uncomfortable from utilizing the curtains. There's nothing to stop the transgender student from using the curtain. There's nothing to stop the school from instituting a policy saying all students must use the curtains. They just can't say that one, and only one student must use the curtains.


----------



## Shine

mmoetc said:


> If you read the decision it respects everyone's rights. It doesn't say there cannot be privacy curtains just that one cannot be installed and made mandatory for only one person. There's nothing to stop any other student who might feel uncomfortable from utilizing the curtains. There's nothing to stop the transgender student from using the curtain. There's nothing to stop the school from instituting a policy saying all students must use the curtains. They just can't say that one, and only one student must use the curtains.


Yours appears to be quite the rational solution, but it will come at a monetary cost though. If this causes the students to have to shower individually then it would solve many of what seems to be the age old insecurities of teenagers. The fly in the ointment would be the fact that those that wish to live on the wild or adventurous side will have the opportunity to shower with the other sex if that entity exists at their school. If they are going to stick to this plan then the only way that I could jump on board would be if individual showerers were the requirement. 

I would wish that someday we could cast off these hangups of a naked human body, where a naked body does not represent something filthy, something nasty, something to be ashamed of. I am quite certain that now is not the time and that the children should not be the guinea pigs for this experiment.


----------



## mmoetc

Shine said:


> Yours appears to be quite the rational solution, but it will come at a monetary cost though. If this causes the students to have to shower individually then it would solve many of what seems to be the age old insecurities of teenagers. The fly in the ointment would be the fact that those that wish to live on the wild or adventurous side will have the opportunity to shower with the other sex if that entity exists at their school. If they are going to stick to this plan then the only way that I could jump on board would be if individual showerers were the requirement.
> 
> I would wish that someday we could cast off these hangups of a naked human body, where a naked body does not represent something filthy, something nasty, something to be ashamed of. I am quite certain that now is not the time and that the children should not be the guinea pigs for this experiment.


Most rational solutions come at some cost. Meeting in the middle means that both sides must step forward. I'm with you on putting away the hang ups about nudity and sexuality. I just think it's not the kids that will have a problem.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> I'll never understand how someone can be hateful, callous, and unfeeling toward another human being. That's a real mental illness.


To say that someone is mentally ill is hateful????

I guess we need to ban the mental health profession, period. Their very existence must represent an entire industry of HATE!!!!

:bash:

ETA: Frankly, I think telling the truth about someone's mental state, so that it leads to getting help, is very compassionate.


----------



## farmrbrown

The insanity on this thread blows my mind.
How in the world can someone "decide" what gender they are, what race or what species by just saying it is so?
And there are actually people agreeing with it, defending it and thinking because a few people in black robes agreed, the rest of us are crazy enough to go along with it!
Unbelievable, what this world is turning into is unbelievable.


----------



## wr

farmrbrown said:


> The insanity on this thread blows my mind.
> How in the world can someone "decide" what gender they are, what race or what species by just saying it is so?
> And there are actually people agreeing with it, defending it and thinking because a few people in black robes agreed, the rest of us are crazy enough to go along with it!
> Unbelievable, what this world is turning into is unbelievable.



How do you feel they can be forced to live by someone else's standards and if we do, who decides what standard they live by and how far does that extend?


----------



## Shine

Not to be confrontational but I have to side with Farmer on this subject. Who knows if the child has been influenced by others to act in this way. This is some messed up stuff if even one child has been manipulated in this fashion. My youngest I like to call my "metro child" - he has no interest in sports, only wants to be fashionable. look good and have the toys that others in his school have. I do not tell him that he cannot act in that fashion - it is just him. At an earlier age, what if I had have pressed him to wear dresses to feel more comfortable? You saw or might have seen the studies that I posted, disorders for GID persons run higher than in the normal populace, ya think? So I am definitely not going to tell someone that they should be someone that they are not, but as alluded to before, if this is just psychobable and there is no real proof that there really is a He/She then I am not jumping on that wagon. I am not going to jump through hoops to bend over backwards to allow a male to tell me that they are a female and then to put my children at risk of not being able to grow up in a somewhat normal environment.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> No, transgenderism is a genetic anomaly. As is homosexuality and bisexuality. All are thought to be influenced by environment as well.
> 
> "The new DSM eliminates the term "gender identity disorder," long considered stigmatizing by mental health specialists and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender activists."
> 
> Here's a link: http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...onger-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/


As is cancer, as is Alzheimer The fact that it is a genetic anomaly does not mean that it is not a mental disorder. What else could it be if you believe something that is so clearly wrong. Scientifically speaking He is a male. Transgender feel as if they are female. That is fine, and not a mental disorder necessarily, but when they take the next step and demand to be treated as a female because they are female. They are rejecting the obvious fact that they are male. That steps into the realm of delusion.

Jim


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Pedophilia is illegal, it always will be, whether it's decided it's genetic or not. I do not agree that adults having sex with children is in any way acceptable.
> 
> Are you trying to say that because LGBT is genetic, and since groups are trying to get pedophilia classified as genetic, they are comparable in any way?


A male exposing his penis to a group of under aged girls in the girls locker room is also illegal. 

I don't know what the original post was trying to say. I would say just because transgenderism is genetic does not mean it should allow illegal action to become legal. 
Jim


----------



## Shine

Jim Bunton said:


> A male exposing his penis to a group of under aged girls in the girls locker room is also illegal.
> 
> I don't know what the original post was trying to say. I would say just because transgenderism is genetic does not mean it should allow illegal action to become legal.
> Jim



The original poster was only trying to say that the school scenario places children in a situation where they are going to be naked. In all times past it seemed that there was a separation of sexes. With this new policy it seems, that across the board that someone has decided for all our children that they have no value, that we must work so that the minority controls the majority.

As an individual that has children, this policy casts a fear upon me. Not that I might consider a child that is confused with regards to their gender, there are many causalities that might place a child in this position but the the control, as a rule would see to strip the right to privacy of our children so as to present ourselves [collectively] as a populace who is unable to advocate for our children, that we must subjugate ourselves to somehow support those small percentages of people in the sense that they have not been offended when normal life offends them. 

At which point do we say [collectively] that this is unreasonable? 

My only effort in posting this is to ask people to understand that we cannot accept when a child tells us that they are of a different gender than they are, we must take that child into our confidence and share all of the beautiful things about being who they were born to be.


----------



## farmrbrown

wr said:


> How do you feel they can be forced to live by someone else's standards and if we do, who decides what standard they live by and how far does that extend?



I can only offer you my honest opinion to that question.
All my life, including today in fact, I've felt the pressure of living by others' standards. Some are trivial and I ignore, and can be downright oppressive, but they are there just the same.
We can all list them, from what I call the trivial like personal appearance, social etiquette, language, hygiene, etc. to the major ones we call laws, and everything in between.
The most common examples I encounter daily are when I drive.
I'm not the most courteous driver I know, but I don't have DUI's and throw trash out the window or run over kids and small animals either.

So my immediate response is to say, "We all have to follow some kind of standards unless we plan on a solitary life far from civilization."

The second part is much more difficult, obviously.
That is, what standards, when, on whom, and how far?




The Bruce Jenner thing was a big shock to me, the last time I recall anything close was learning about Rock Hudson. I would have bet the farm that couldn't have been true, yet there it was..........
Part of it I'm sure is not understanding any of it or being exposed to it at all, IOW complete ignorance on my behalf.
I admit that, quite honestly.
I know gay people and that's something different. I do understand that and haven't had any problems in that area.
To be blunt, yes, I have used the restroom at the same time as a gay man, it was no different than any other time.

But having watched the Olympics that Jenner was in, to picture him now as a woman is so surreal, I can't even wrap my head around it.
The emotional and mental torment must be immense, and I don't have one drop of anger towards him, but a tremendous amount of pity. If he were a friend of mine, I think I could only hug him and cry.
Not trying to be sappy, but that poor man needs more help than I could ever give, or even know how.

That's the other thing that troubles me about this issue.
I don't know if this is something that's always been out there or not. I mean, we've all heard of cross dressers and fetishes before, but it was rare and kept secret. It may be a false perception, but it seems like this is becoming more common today.

If it's a few individuals, I'm not in favor of turning everything upside down to "accommodate", nor do I think it necessary.
If it's a growing trend, I think it wise to figure out the cause and try to correct it because it may not be PC to say so, but it just isn't a new normal that should be welcomed as acceptable.


----------



## JJ Grandits

I would like to see one of these so called privacy curtains. Seriously? In a locker room? You realize that makes absolutely no sense. Explain how this privacy curtain works. Especially in a group shower. How does one move from their locker to the shower, take a shower and then move back to their locker when surrounded by some mystical privacy curtain?


----------



## mmoetc

Shine said:


> The original poster was only trying to say that the school scenario places children in a situation where they are going to be naked. In all times past it seemed that there was a separation of sexes. With this new policy it seems, that across the board that someone has decided for all our children that they have no value, that we must work so that the minority controls the majority.
> 
> As an individual that has children, this policy casts a fear upon me. Not that I might consider a child that is confused with regards to their gender, there are many causalities that might place a child in this position but the the control, as a rule would see to strip the right to privacy of our children so as to present ourselves [collectively] as a populace who is unable to advocate for our children, that we must subjugate ourselves to somehow support those small percentages of people in the sense that they have not been offended when normal life offends them. H
> 
> At which point do we say [collectively] that this is unreasonable?
> 
> My only effort in posting this is to ask people to understand that we cannot accept when a child tells us that they are of a different gender than they are, we must take that child into our confidence and share all of the beautiful things about being who they were born to be.


It's not that the minority controls the majority. The minority is treated the same as the majority. The majority doesn't control the minority. I doesn't matter the size of the minority. One person gets the same rights as millions.

I don't know any parents of transgender children. I do know gay adults and patents of gay children. Many of the same things you say about those transgender children are exactly what was said about gay children in the past. Some still say them. Adults influence children in many ways. Not all of them are good. Some you would find good I might see as potentially as harmful as you see this. Sex, sexuality, gender and identity is far more complex than looking behind one's zipper. Most things about human existance and behavior are more than black and white. Embracing who they were meant to be might just be what these parents and children are doing.


----------



## mmoetc

farmrbrown said:


> The insanity on this thread blows my mind.
> How in the world can someone "decide" what gender they are, what race or what species by just saying it is so?
> And there are actually people agreeing with it, defending it and thinking because a few people in black robes agreed, the rest of us are crazy enough to go along with it!
> Unbelievable, what this world is turning into is unbelievable.


Why is it any less valid than someone deciding what religion they are and expecting preferential treatment based on that? I find it just as irrational to believe in some unprovable supreme being that controls all aspects of life and allows, even encourages, mistreatment of others. ( No, I'm not directing this specifically at you, your religion or any of your practices. It applies equally to all those religions and individuals within them that use those religions to treat others differently because they aren't somehow chosen or made the right choice in what to believe.). In this case the child doesn't want to bevy related differently, just the same. I find that eminently sane.

Brains are wired in many different ways. Some cause behaviors that harm others. Those behaviors should be discouraged and punished. Some cause behaviors harmful only to oneself. These should be discouraged. Some cause harm to no one. These should be ignored. How knowing that others have different anatomy or even seeing this different anatomy is harmful to anyone baffles me.


----------



## Farmerga

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yeppers, the government shouldn't have forced anyone to treat people fairly... We should have had enough decency to treat everyone fairly to start with. As to your first comment.... No one is being treated unfairly by being asked to treat others fairly.


 Ok, how is if fair to allow this boy to shower with the girls? That is the distilled question here. Some of those girls may have a problem with it. Do they not deserve a safe place where they can shower without the thought of the possibility of a male walking in on them? 

The government shouldn't be ALLOWED to force people to play nice with others except to prevent fraud or bodily harm. If he doesn't want to shower with his biological sex (male) he can be given the opportunity to shower alone. That is what we call a reasonable accommodation.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> To say that someone is mentally ill is hateful????
> 
> I guess we need to ban the mental health profession, period. Their very existence must represent an entire industry of HATE!!!!
> 
> :bash:
> 
> ETA: Frankly, I think telling the truth about someone's mental state, so that it leads to getting help, is very compassionate.


Yes, we need to ban the entire mental health profession.  Tolerance to each other's differences would just be too hard and not worth the effort... Right? Gah. 

Telling another human being that they are wrong about what they feel is just helping them, right? Even tho it's their mind, and they _know_ what they think. A stranger certainly knows better, right? SMH

I was right the first time- I'll never understand how someone can be hateful, callous, and unfeeling toward another human being. That's a real mental illness.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> As is cancer, as is Alzheimer The fact that it is a genetic anomaly does not mean that it is not a mental disorder. What else could it be if you believe something that is so clearly wrong. Scientifically speaking He is a male. Transgender feel as if they are female. That is fine, and not a mental disorder necessarily, but when they take the next step and demand to be treated as a female because they are female. They are rejecting the obvious fact that they are male. That steps into the realm of delusion.
> 
> Jim


Some cancers can be genetic, early onset familial Alzheimer's is likely to be genetic, but not all types of cancer or Alzheimer's are genetic. 

I'm not arguing with you. You (or I) will never know the feeling of being trapped in the wrong sex body. I pointed out the DSM5 no longer classifies transgenderism as a mental illness, so take it up with them. 

Have a lovely day.


----------



## arabian knight

JJ Grandits said:


> I would like to see one of these so called privacy curtains. Seriously? In a locker room? You realize that makes absolutely no sense. Explain how this privacy curtain works. Especially in a group shower. How does one move from their locker to the shower, take a shower and then move back to their locker when surrounded by some mystical privacy curtain?


This whole lib real ideas that is happening today STINKS. Why must the entire country cow tow to some one sided views of a group of minorities that have no business telling the rest of the country what they can and can not do should do or should not do. Time to clip a few wings off these kind of people and FAST. Stop this insane movement that is doing nothing but tearing down the Foundation of what this country was built on. I don;t give a rip what the World is doing in their OWN countries, I don't want this country to two be like every other one in the world.
We sure as heck don;t want socialistic views and ideas come to the USA. I don't give a rat behind what things are like north of our boarder either. That is not the USA. The USA is THE USA. Period~! The the entire world wants to stand and take a shower, together LET THEM but LEAVE THE USA ALONE~!!!!!


----------



## painterswife

arabian knight said:


> This whole lib real ideas that is happening today STINKS. Why must the entire country cow tow to some one sided views of a group of minorities that have no business telling the rest of the country what they can and can not do should do or should not do. Time to clip a few wings off these kind of people and FAST. Stop this insane movement that is doing nothing but tearing down the Foundation of what this country was built on. I don;t give a rip what the World is doing in their OWN countries, I don't want this country to two be like every other one in the world.
> We sure as heck don;t want socialistic views and ideas come to the USA. I don't give a rat behind what things are like north of our boarder either. That is not the USA. The USA is THE USA. Period~! The the entire world wants to sit and take a crap together LET THEM but LEAVE THE USA ALONE~!!!!!


You maybe don't believe in anything liberal but that is all right. You get to live your life and others get to live theirs. Conservatives don';t own this country any more than liberals do. This is the USA, too bad you don't believe in the constitution and others being allowed to live their own lives in spite of others uptight views.


----------



## farmrbrown

mmoetc said:


> Why is it any less valid than someone deciding what religion they are and expecting preferential treatment based on that?
> 
> How knowing that others have different anatomy or even seeing this different anatomy is harmful to anyone baffles me.


If you think both are equally valid, more or less the same, I don't have any words to reply to that. It confirms my bewilderment.
It seems the world is fusing biology with psychology, confusing is a better word.

If this continues, I foresee some more lawsuits on school curriculum.
After all, how can you teach basic biology now, without it being offensive hate speech?:shrug:


----------



## Farmerga

painterswife said:


> You maybe don't believe in anything liberal but that is all right. You get to live your life and others get to live theirs. Conservatives don';t own this country any more than liberals do. This is the USA, too bad you don't believe in the constitution and others being allowed to live their own lives in spite of others uptight views.


 That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about having the views of a very small, very vocal minority forced on the rest of society. I am sure that if the girls don't want to shower in the same room, at the same time, as this boy, they have the right not to shower. How is that fair? For as long as we have had showers in school locker rooms, they have been separated by biological gender. Now comes along a few boys, or, girls, who want to mix things up because they "believe" they are not the gender that genetics and anatomy say that they are. They are not interested in having reasonable accommodations, such as showering alone (oh the horror), no, they want to force society to bend to their will. 

Lets look at another very small, very vocal minority and see how you all would feel if they tried to have their vision of society forced upon you. That minority would be the freaks at the Westboro Baptist Church. 

I am a live and let live type of person. If a male wants to call himself a female and dress and live like a female, that is fine, to a point. When that person wants to intrude into the safe space of women and, lets face it, violate their right to privacy, I am not OK with that. Many women are not OK with that, but, I guess that women's rights are no longer the cool cause it once was.


----------



## mmoetc

farmrbrown said:


> If you think both are equally valid, more or less the same, I don't have any words to reply to that. It confirms my bewilderment.
> It seems the world is fusing biology with psychology, confusing is a better word.
> 
> If this continues, I foresee some more lawsuits on school curriculum.
> After all, how can you teach basic biology now, without it being offensive hate speech?:shrug:


Not to belabor the point, but choices are choices whether they're sexual or gender identity or religous identity. Both are done for reasons only really known to those doing them. That you or I cannot understand the reasons for another's choice speaks more to the reason for constitutional protection than against them. When you speak of a threshold for those rights look in the mirror. It is you.


----------



## painterswife

Farmerga said:


> That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about having the views of a very small, very vocal minority forced on the rest of society. I am sure that if the girls don't want to shower in the same room, at the same time, as this boy, they have the right not to shower. How is that fair? For as long as we have had showers in school locker rooms, they have been separated by biological gender. Now comes along a few boys, or, girls, who want to mix things up because they "believe" they are not the gender that genetics and anatomy say that they are. They are not interested in having reasonable accommodations, such as showering alone (oh the horror), no, they want to force society to bend to their will.
> 
> Lets look at another very small, very vocal minority and see how you all would feel if they tried to have their vision of society forced upon you. That minority would be the freaks at the Westboro Baptist Church.
> 
> I am a live and let live type of person. If a male wants to call himself a female and dress and live like a female, that is fine, to a point. When that person wants to intrude into the safe space of women and, lets face it, violate their right to privacy, I am not OK with that. Many women are not OK with that, but, I guess that women's rights are no longer the cool cause it once was.


If the girls already have to share the showers with each other, then their right to privacy is already violated.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes, we need to ban the entire mental health profession.  Tolerance to each other's differences would just be too hard and not worth the effort... Right? Gah.
> 
> Telling another human being that they are wrong about what they *feel* is just helping them, right? Even tho it's their mind, and they _know_ what they think. A stranger certainly knows better, right? SMH
> 
> I was right the first time- I'll never understand how someone can be hateful, callousoand unfeeling toward another human being. That's a real mental illness.


Allowing someone to go down the rabbit-hole of insanity, disconnected from reality, is your idea of tolerance and compassion? 

Obviously, we disagree.


----------



## mmoetc

arabian knight said:


> This whole lib real ideas that is happening today STINKS. Why must the entire country cow tow to some one sided views of a group of minorities that have no business telling the rest of the country what they can and can not do should do or should not do. Time to clip a few wings off these kind of people and FAST. Stop this insane movement that is doing nothing but tearing down the Foundation of what this country was built on. I don;t give a rip what the World is doing in their OWN countries, I don't want this country to two be like every other one in the world.
> We sure as heck don;t want socialistic views and ideas come to the USA. I don't give a rat behind what things are like north of our boarder either. That is not the USA. The USA is THE USA. Period~! The the entire world wants to stand and take a shower, together LET THEM but LEAVE THE USA ALONE~!!!!!


Socialistic ideas like Social Security, government disability and energy assistance programs. Yeah, let's get rid of those. Giving all people the same rights? The founders would be rolling in their graves.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> Allowing someone to go down the rabbit-hole of insanity, disconnected from reality, is your idea of tolerance and compassion?
> 
> Obviously, we disagree.


Of course we do. I'm tolerant and compassionate.


----------



## Farmerga

mmoetc said:


> Socialistic ideas like Social Security, government disability and energy assistance programs. Yeah, let's get rid of those. Giving all people the same rights? The founders would be rolling in their graves.


 For one, yes, I agree, get rid of the programs you listed. That would be a wonderful start. All people already have the same rights, the government has just been poor at protecting them for some. But that is not what we are talking about here. Big Bubba linebacker doesn't have the right to shower with the girls in the female locker room. This boy, who calls himself a girl, shouldn't either.


----------



## arabian knight

Farmerga said:


> That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about having the views of a very small, very vocal minority forced on the rest of society. I am sure that if the girls don't want to shower in the same room, at the same time, as this boy, they have the right not to shower. How is that fair? For as long as we have had showers in school locker rooms, they have been separated by biological gender. Now comes along a few boys, or, girls, who want to mix things up because they "believe" they are not the gender that genetics and anatomy say that they are. They are not interested in having reasonable accommodations, such as showering alone (oh the horror), no, they want to force society to bend to their will.
> 
> Lets look at another very small, very vocal minority and see how you all would feel if they tried to have their vision of society forced upon you. That minority would be the freaks at the Westboro Baptist Church.
> 
> I am a live and let live type of person. If a male wants to call himself a female and dress and live like a female, that is fine, to a point. When that person wants to intrude into the safe space of women and, lets face it, violate their right to privacy, I am not OK with that. Many women are not OK with that, but, I guess that women's rights are no longer the cool cause it once was.


 It is almost a waste of time talking with these control freaks, that if they don't feed their appetite, they just go crawling and crying and whining to the government to pass some insane laws that all it does is divide Americas even more into different groups. They are nothing but control freaks that if they don;t get their way must pass laws and make them higher on that pedestal.


----------



## Farmerga

painterswife said:


> If the girls already have to share the showers with each other, then their right to privacy is already violated.


 Then why not take it a step further. Why not let the football team shower with them as well? Take down all of the signs. Let it be a free-for-all in the showers at our public schools. Shoot, let the coaches shower with them as well and the teachers, and the support staff.


----------



## Farmerga

arabian knight said:


> It is almost a waste of time talking with these control freaks, that if they don't feed their appetite, they just go crawling and crying and whining to the government to pass some insane laws that all it does is divide Americas even more into different groups. They are nothing but control freaks that if they don;t get their way must pass laws and make them higher on that pedestal.


 Oh it is a vast waste of time, but, much like a rubber necking at a car wreck, I just can't help it.


----------



## painterswife

Farmerga said:


> Then why not take it a step further. Why not let the football team shower with them as well? Take down all of the signs. Let it be a free-for-all in the showers at our public schools. Shoot, let the coaches shower with them as well and the teachers, and the support staff.


Why not. You have already violated each individual person's privacy by making them shower together anyways. What difference is it now?


----------



## mmoetc

Farmerga said:


> For one, yes, I agree, get rid of the programs you listed. That would be a wonderful start. All people already have the same rights, the government has just been poor at protecting them for some. But that is not what we are talking about here. Big Bubba linebacker doesn't have the right to shower with the girls in the female locker room. This boy, who calls himself a girl, shouldn't either.


If big bubba linebacker is transgender he/ she has the right to shower in whichever lockerroom he/she identifies with. That would be freedom. The same freedom offered to heterosexual youth who identify with what they see in their pants. Or homosexual youth who identify with what they see in their pants. Saying you can shower in the locker room you identify with but you must do it in the corner behind the curtain isn't freedom. Saying you may is. It's the same freedom the decision cited must be offered to all.


----------



## mmoetc

Double post


----------



## Farmerga

mmoetc said:


> If big bubba linebacker is transgender he/ she has the right to shower in whichever lockerroom he/she identifies with. That would be freedom. The same freedom offered to heterosexual youth who identify with what they see in their pants. Coe homosexual youth who identify with what they see in their pants. Saying you can shower in the locker room you identify with but you must do it in the corner behind the curtain isn't freedom. Saying you may is. It's the same freedom the decision cited must be offered to all.


So, Bubba, with his XY chromosomes and Twig and two berries doesn't have the same right as Transsexual Luke with his XY chromosomes and Twig and two berries? Just because Transsexual Luke claims to be something that he is not? 

These are minors, they are not afforded the same level of freedom as an adult, nor should they be.


----------



## Farmerga

painterswife said:


> Why not. You have already violated each individual person's privacy by making them shower together anyways. What difference is it now?


 You would send a teenage daughter of yours into a shower with football players, male coaches, teachers, etc.? Wow!!!


----------



## painterswife

Farmerga said:


> You would send a teenage daughter of yours into a shower with football players, male coaches, teachers, etc.? Wow!!!


Did I say I would? I would not send a child of mine into any shower where they have to be with any other individual. I never had to share the same shower with anyone so why would I expect my child to.


----------



## Farmerga

painterswife said:


> Did I say I would? I would not send a child of mine into any shower where they have to be with any other individual. I never had to share the same shower with anyone so why would I expect my child to.


 But, you would force that choice on everyone else?


----------



## painterswife

Farmerga said:


> But, you would force that choice on everyone else?


How? I have not forced any child to shower with anyone nor would I. Are you all for your daughters or sons having to group shower?


----------



## Farmerga

painterswife said:


> How? I have not forced any child to shower with anyone nor would I. Are you all for your daughters or sons having to group shower?


 
Look, some girls are perfectly comfortable showering in the presence of other girls, but would not be so, showering in front of males. So, the power that be, for the supposed "rights" of one individual, force that choice on the group at large. I will ask again, how is that fair?


----------



## painterswife

Farmerga said:


> Look, some girls are perfectly comfortable showering in the presence of other girls, but would not be so, showering in front of males. So, the power that be, for the supposed "rights" of one individual, force that choice on the group at large. I will ask again, how is that fair?


As far as each individual wants it to go. No child has to share the shower with someone else. That will be and should be the next court case.


----------



## Farmerga

painterswife said:


> As far as each individual wants it to go. No child has to share the shower with someone else. That will be and should be the next court case.


And that is the problem. We have surrendered common sense to the court system.


----------



## mmoetc

Farmerga said:


> So, Bubba, with his XY chromosomes and Twig and two berries doesn't have the same right as Transsexual Luke with his XY chromosomes and Twig and two berries? Just because Transsexual Luke claims to be something that he is not?
> 
> These are minors, they are not afforded the same level of freedom as an adult, nor should they be.


Reread my post. Bubba has the same right to shower with the gender he identifies with as anyone else. Bubba also has the same right not to shower with anyone Bubba doesn't want to. Bubba can use the privacy curtain, so can anyone else. Bubba, nor anyone else is required to do anything anyone else is not.


----------



## Farmerga

mmoetc said:


> Reread my post. Bubba has the same right to shower with the gender he identifies with as anyone else. Bubba also has the same right not to shower with anyone Bubba doesn't want to. Bubba can use the privacy curtain, so can anyone else. Bubba, nor anyone else is required to do anything anyone else is not.


 I simply do not understand why, under law, someone gets to pick which gender they are. That is silly on the face of it. If Transsexual Luke commits a crime, and bodily fluids are found, they will be tested and they come back as being from a male. If he is running around naked, his genitalia, flopping around for everyone to see, is male. 

Using the scientific method, nothing can be concluded except that he is male. His feelings on the subject do not change the biological fact, he is male. 
It infringes on the rights of those girls to be put in the position where a male can legally walk into the girls shower, drop trow, and take a shower with them, and all he need say is "Don't worry girls, I am one of you."

We are quickly loosing our collective mind, as a nation. We have really stepped off of the deep end and many want to weigh us down with rocks so that we sink faster.


----------



## Txsteader

What of the girl who says, 'no Bubba, you're not a girl'? 

Will she be punished for her refusal to accept what she's being told? Sent to re-education class? 

The public education system is going to lose even more students because of these type rulings. Perhaps it will eventually die....of self-inflicted wounds. :facepalm:


----------



## MO_cows

painterswife said:


> As far as each individual wants it to go. No child has to share the shower with someone else. That will be and should be the next court case.


And that could well spell the end of sports and phys ed. Schools can't afford individual facilities in the quantities required for a class that is likely to be 25 or more.

Seriously, consider yourself fortunate that you have never encountered a group shower/locker room! Even in a pricey health club, very little privacy is provided from others of the same gender.


----------



## MO_cows

keenataz said:


> MO_cows said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was speaking more in the general terms not this specific.
> 
> In this case I agree with you. Sometimes compromise is the sensible way to go. But I am not sure these kids are going to lose their innocence?
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't mean innocence as in virginity. I meant innocence in that a school age kid would be presumed not to have seen the opposite sex body naked. Sure, some of them have, but it's still way out of line for the school to provide the experience!
Click to expand...


----------



## MO_cows

??huh?? Some glitch with the quote above. It is from Keenatz. I'm not discussing it with myself, honest!!


----------



## wr

MO_cows said:


> ??huh?? Some glitch with the quote above. It is from Keenatz. I'm not discussing it with myself, honest!!


Things have been glitchy and we'll get Chelsea to look into it.


----------



## Shine

wr said:


> Things have been glitchy and we'll get Chelsea to look into it.



Clinton??? OK, things are a whole lot clearer now...


----------



## Shine

You know... I am going to start selecting the box beside where it says latino on all my official forms now, I feel just like I am from Puerto Rico. Now I am going to dress like a Puerto Rican, cook tasteless banamas - eat lots or pulled pork and park my car in the front yard instead of the driveway. Yeah, that's the ticket. I get to be first in line to demand my Puerto Rican Rights!!!

Doesn't anyone else see the insanity of a boy saying that they are a girl? Or visa versa? How can a sane person think that they are of a different gender than they are? How can Doctors that believe in the Hippocratic Oath they took that begins with "First, do no harm..." when they start cutting off body parts???


----------



## wr

Shine said:


> Doesn't anyone else see the insanity of a boy saying that they are a girl? Or visa versa? How can a sane person think that they are of a different gender than they are? How can Doctors that believe in the Hippocratic Oath they took that begins with "First, do no harm..." when they start cutting off body parts???


I kinda feel the same way about plastic surgery as well but it seems that if someone wants to have a new nose, bigger breasts, thinner thighs or a bigger bum, it's all okay, as long as it makes them feel better about themselves.

I can't comprehend transgender issues because it's not something that I've experienced but I do know someone who is a very prominent entrepreneur that was reassigned years ago. She's comfortable as who she is and it must have been pretty important for her because she had to go out of country to have the surgery done and it cost a lot but it's nothing she advertises or promotes and she would far rather not have made it public at all but a disgruntled employee decided to try blackmailing her so she was forced to either pay a large sum of money or share her personal life publicly.


----------



## wr

Shine said:


> Clinton??? OK, things are a whole lot clearer now...


:rotfl:


----------



## Shine

I cannot comprehend the concept either, that's why I ask so many questions. However, if they are going to shower with the girls then that have to get the reassignment surgery done before they are allowed to. If it is still a boy, it is still a boy. This business about calling someone a she when they have the equipment to be a he is not correct nor is it honest. Just because you act like a girl, that does not mean it is true. Come on, get some skin in the game... er.. out of the game.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> You know... I am going to start selecting the box beside where it says latino on all my official forms now, I feel just like I am from Puerto Rico. Now I am going to dress like a Puerto Rican, cook tasteless banamas - eat lots or pulled pork and park my car in the front yard instead of the driveway. Yeah, that's the ticket. I get to be first in line to demand my Puerto Rican Rights!!!
> 
> Doesn't anyone else see the insanity of a boy saying that they are a girl? Or visa versa? How can a sane person think that they are of a different gender than they are? How can Doctors that believe in the Hippocratic Oath they took that begins with "First, do no harm..." when they start cutting off body parts???


Which Puerto Rican rights would that be? You can be anything you want to be...


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Which Puerto Rican rights would that be? You can be anything you want to be...



Really now, you buy into something as silly as my idle daydreams, then I understand the weight that you place on a minor's decision to destroy not only their body but their life too?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Really now, you buy into something as silly as my idle daydreams, then I understand the weight that you place on a minor's decision to destroy not only their body but their life too?


Why would you post about your daydream to become Puerto Rican? 

What can a minor do to their body that would destroy it? Hormones aren't permanent, and neither are clothes, hairstyles, etc...


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Why would you post about your daydream to become Puerto Rican?
> 
> What can a minor do to their body that would destroy it? Hormones aren't permanent, and neither are clothes, hairstyles, etc...


Removing body parts is kinda' permanent, yes?

The posting of the "daydream" was to illustrate what could happen if you let people add themselves to this or that "protected class" with just a positive assertion... Chaos.

Nope, if they are going to cram this down people's throats, there needs to be some kind of medical test that can be performed to insure that this person is not pulling the wool over people's eyes or to find out if there is a disorder causing this delusion.


----------



## keenataz

arabian knight said:


> This whole lib real ideas that is happening today STINKS. Why must the entire country cow tow to some one sided views of a group of minorities that have no business telling the rest of the country what they can and can not do should do or should not do. Time to clip a few wings off these kind of people and FAST. Stop this insane movement that is doing nothing but tearing down the Foundation of what this country was built on. I don;t give a rip what the World is doing in their OWN countries, I don't want this country to two be like every other one in the world.
> We sure as heck don;t want socialistic views and ideas come to the USA. I don't give a rat behind what things are like north of our boarder either. That is not the USA. The USA is THE USA. Period~! The the entire world wants to stand and take a shower, together LET THEM but LEAVE THE USA ALONE~!!!!!


Don't worry we'll keep our evil ways up here. But I am not sure this change room thing is a socialistic thing or a Canadian thing. I have never heard of it up here. Or maybe it is up hee and we are taking our usual "who really cares" attitude towards it?


----------



## keenataz

MO_cows said:


> ??huh?? Some glitch with the quote above. It is from Keenatz. I'm not discussing it with myself, honest!!


Sure you aren't. The voices in your head. Kidding you by the way.

Couple of points-I really don't think this is going to a widespread issue. There are very few kids that are going that will come out as transgender. Or if I remember being a teenager and trying to fit in.

Also and this will surprise people I am a little uncomfortable with young people saying they are transgender. It is a time of confusion and change. And I don't know how many young people can be so certain of themselves to make that declaration. That is where I do see the mental health industry coming in. Not to try and change them, but to make sure they are seing everything clearly.

And in the few cases like this that come up. I would hope some common sense can reign and a solution for all be achieved. We are thinking human beings who put a man on the moon, surely we can.


----------



## keenataz

Shine said:


> Removing body parts is kinda' permanent, yes?
> 
> The posting of the "daydream" was to illustrate what could happen if you let people add themselves to this or that "protected class" with just a positive assertion... Chaos.
> 
> Nope, if they are going to cram this down people's throats, there needs to be some kind of medical test that can be performed to insure that this person is not pulling the wool over people's eyes or to find out if there is a disorder causing this delusion.


Again in our society being transgender is not something a kid is going to do unless they are serious. The ridicule they would have to go through would not be worth. Remember teenagers can be the cruelest creatures on earth. And as far as doing to see a naked person of the opposite sex-that is what the internet is for.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Maybe schools should do away with required PE and forcing adolescents to shower together.


----------



## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> Which Puerto Rican rights would that be? You can be anything you want to be...


To not pay federal income tax. They pay only 4% state tax in Puerto Rico.

So, the freedom to be whoever and whatever you want, sounds like a freedom everyone would endorse.

OK, transgender boy wants to shower and play with the girl's softball team.
Today he/she wants to be the pitcher, but his/her assigned position is in the outfield.
Tomorrow he wants to be the QB on the football team, but has never played before.
Who should stand in his way of what he wants, some silly rule or a coach?
There's no real harm to the other players is there?
My wife hates sports so she would be one vote in favor of it, so there ya go.:bouncy:


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Removing body parts is kinda' permanent, yes?
> 
> The posting of the "daydream" was to illustrate what could happen if you let people add themselves to this or that "protected class" with just a positive assertion... Chaos.
> 
> Nope, if they are going to cram this down people's throats, there needs to be some kind of medical test that can be performed to insure that this person is not pulling the wool over people's eyes or to find out if there is a disorder causing this delusion.


You do realize that there have been protected classes since the 60s and no chaos... 

A minor can't have "body parts" removed without parental permission.

Be sure to announce to all the transgendered that want to call themselves by the pronoun of the other gender, or have gender reassignment surgery that *you* require a medical test before *you'll* allow them to do something with their body or use a specific bathroom. Let us know how that goes, 'K?


----------



## Irish Pixie

farmrbrown said:


> To not pay federal income tax. They pay only 4% state tax in Puerto Rico.
> 
> So, the freedom to be whoever and whatever you want, sounds like a freedom everyone would endorse.
> 
> OK, transgender boy wants to shower and play with the girl's softball team.
> Today he/she wants to be the pitcher, but his/her assigned position is in the outfield.
> Tomorrow he wants to be the QB on the football team, but has never played before.
> Who should stand in his way of what he wants, some silly rule or a coach?
> There's no real harm to the other players is there?
> My wife hates sports so she would be one vote in favor of it, so there ya go.:bouncy:


You do realize that your "what ifs" or "could be" are far fetched, right?


----------



## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> You do realize that your "what ifs" or "could be" are far fetched, right?


You know, that's about all anyone can say when the next "far fetched" idea is proposed.
I've gone thru this with others before.
"Oh no, you're wrong, that'll never happen, that's not what they want to do."

Uh huh.
Like I said previously, the unbelievable has ALREADY happened. 
When you remove all boundaries, expect the unexpected.


----------



## Irish Pixie

farmrbrown said:


> You know, that's about all anyone can say when the next "far fetched" idea is proposed.
> I've gone thru this with others before.
> "Oh no, you're wrong, that'll never happen, that's not what they want to do."
> 
> Uh huh.
> Like I said previously, the unbelievable has ALREADY happened.
> When you remove all boundaries, expect the unexpected.


Does "remove all boundaries" mean make people equal?


----------



## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> Does "remove all boundaries" mean make people equal?


That' a good question.
I'll let you think about it for a while...........


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> I've gone thru this with others *before*.


About half of the posts on this thread are just repetition.
Doesn't anyone remember what they already read or posted?


----------



## farmrbrown

Yes. It can be frustrating when the truth is denied, over and over.


----------



## Irish Pixie

farmrbrown said:


> That' a good question.
> I'll let you think about it for a while...........


Oh, good. I didn't know what you were implying, and it looks like you didn't either.


----------



## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> Oh, good. I didn't know what you were implying, and it looks like you didn't either.


Oh, but I do know what I'm talking about.
I was going to wait on your reply after you had time to think about it carefully.


----------



## keenataz

farmrbrown said:


> To not pay federal income tax. They pay only 4% state tax in Puerto Rico.
> 
> So, the freedom to be whoever and whatever you want, sounds like a freedom everyone would endorse.
> 
> OK, transgender boy wants to shower and play with the girl's softball team.
> Today he/she wants to be the pitcher, but his/her assigned position is in the outfield.
> Tomorrow he wants to be the QB on the football team, but has never played before.
> Who should stand in his way of what he wants, some silly rule or a coach?
> There's no real harm to the other players is there?
> My wife hates sports so she would be one vote in favor of it, so there ya go.:bouncy:


I think it says a lot when you somehow equate the turmoil and confusion that a possible transgender teen must go through to a little league sports team. I am assuming this is not fun and games for them.


----------



## keenataz

farmrbrown said:


> You know, that's about all anyone can say when the next "far fetched" idea is proposed.
> I've gone thru this with others before.
> "Oh no, you're wrong, that'll never happen, that's not what they want to do."
> 
> Uh huh.
> Like I said previously, the unbelievable has ALREADY happened.
> When you remove all boundaries, expect the unexpected.


I am curious what you mean? I am guessing what is in this thread, but what else? Gay marriage? Just being gay? Or are you one that expects this to lead to a person marrying their horse or something like that? That is far fetched.

By boundaries do you mean laws?


----------



## farmrbrown

keenataz said:


> I think it says a lot when you somehow equate the turmoil and confusion that a possible transgender teen must go through to a little league sports team. I am assuming this is not fun and games for them.


But the point is, I'm NOT equating them.
I'm pointing out the fallacy that this is the way to help them, by tearing down the boundaries that the rest of us have established.



keenataz said:


> I am curious what you mean? I am guessing what is in this thread, but what else? Gay marriage? Just being gay? Or are you one that expects this to a person marrying their horse or something like that? That is far fetched.
> 
> By boundaries do you mean laws?



LOL.
Yep, you're getting the picture.
Do some googling and what some call far fetched have already been tried.
Remember, there is nothing new under the sun.......


----------



## keenataz

farmrbrown said:


> But the point is, I'm NOT equating them.
> I'm pointing out the fallacy that this is the way to help them, by tearing down the boundaries that the rest of us have established.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.
> Yep, you're getting the picture.
> Do some googling and what some call far fetched have already been tried.
> Remember, there is nothing new under the sun.......


What was far fetched at one time is no longer. There are many examples-woman voting, black man marrying white woman, Donald Trump a presidential contender. But times change, so must we.

Look I am not totally comfortable with what is going on here and hope some compromise can be worked out. But also I feel compassion for any person who is going through the distress and trauma that this person must. I remember this person is n't doing it for kicks or fun and I assume many jokes are being said about her. Again knowing kids being cruel.

And to your analogy I am not one who thinks should be quarterback just because they want to be


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> You do realize that there have been protected classes since the 60s and no chaos...
> 
> A minor can't have "body parts" removed without parental permission.
> 
> Be sure to announce to all the transgendered that want to call themselves by the pronoun of the other gender, or have gender reassignment surgery that *you* require a medical test before *you'll* allow them to do something with their body or use a specific bathroom. Let us know how that goes, 'K?


Once again, you've either misunderstood my point or are attempting to change it. It is a child that we are speaking about here. You want their parents standing up for them? OK then if you are going to endanger the privacy of the females then you better be darn well certain that the person is who they say they are. If there is no medical test to prove that this condition does in fact exist then those parents, if they are so certain that the child is mis-gendered, should have the surgery so that the boy becomes a "girl" in physical appearance. If not - the boys shower with boys and girls shower with girls... It is not too hard to understand. I am relatively certain that this will not happen and I have done my job to warn others that this is going on so, really, I'm not going to expend much more effort on this subject.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Does "remove all boundaries" mean make people equal?


The boundary I am most concerned about is the one that makes it illegal for a male to go into a female shower room and expose himself. That is one that I think most of us would agree on in any other circumstance. There is nothing unfair, or unequal to have this simple concept apply to all males even transgender males. This is a boundary that should remain in place under all circumstances.

Jim


----------



## Shine

Jim Bunton said:


> The boundary I am most concerned about is the one that makes it illegal for a male to go into a female shower room and expose himself. That is one that I think most of us would agree on in any other circumstance. There is nothing unfair, or unequal to have this simple concept apply to all males even transgender males. This is a boundary that should remain in place under all circumstances.
> 
> Jim


You're asking them to observe the rules of "common decency" - I'm not sure that's in their game plan...


----------



## Txsteader

keenataz said:


> Look I am not totally comfortable with what is going on here and hope some compromise can be worked out. But also I feel compassion for any person who is going through the distress and trauma that this person must. I remember this person is n't doing it for kicks or fun and I assume many jokes are being said about her. Again knowing kids being cruel.


I feel compassion for him, too. Being a teen is hard enough as it is.

But here's the part that doesn't make sense to me; why subject himself to *more* distress and trauma? Knowing the nature of kids & teens, I suspect he's setting himself up for even more rejection by forcing the issue, making himself an outcast w/ both genders.


----------



## painterswife

Txsteader said:


> I feel compassion for him, too. Being a teen is hard enough as it is.
> 
> But here's the part that doesn't make sense to me; why subject himself to *more* distress and trauma? Knowing the nature of kids & teens, I suspect he's setting himself up for even more rejection by forcing the issue, making himself an outcast w/ both genders.


SHe just may hope to prevent the next child from facing this abuse. Maybe she knows she is strong enough to deal with it but someone else may not be,. Pretty brave child. I admire the courage.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> I feel compassion for him, too. Being a teen is hard enough as it is.
> 
> But here's the part that doesn't make sense to me; why subject himself to *more* distress and trauma? Knowing the nature of kids & teens, I suspect he's setting himself up for even more rejection by forcing the issue, making himself an outcast w/ both genders.


Why can't you (collective you) understand this? This kid is female in all ways except genitalia. She has identified female since she could understand the concept. Transgenders don't *choose* to be the opposite sex they *are* the opposite sex. Can you imagine knowing you are female, and then looking in a mirror and seeing a man? Knowing that your body is the wrong one for your soul? 

Do you still think that people choose to be gay too? You do have a point, why would anyone take the disdain, pain, and humiliation of not being socially accepted if they didn't feel overwhelmingly that they were the wrong sex or gay? Most people aren't masochists, they do not seek pain, they just want peace within themselves. Think about that. 

This world would be a better place if more people had a little compassion for things that they can't completely understand.

ETA: I can't understand the arrogance either. The utter self absorption of "you're different than me, therefore _you_ must change so I don't feel uncomfortable".


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> You're asking them to observe the rules of "common decency" - I'm not sure that's in their game plan...


You know what common decency is? It's not telling someone that you know better than they do what is happening in their mind/body. That is the epitome of arrogance and control. 

Rather than project your (collective your) arrogance and control outward perhaps you should direct your energy into changing yourself. Just sayin'.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> You know what common decency is? It's not telling someone that you know better than they do what is happening in their mind/body. That is the epitome of arrogance and control.
> 
> Rather than project your (collective your) arrogance and control outward perhaps you should direct your energy into changing yourself. Just sayin'.


I do have compassion for the situation, but forcing others into a bad situation is not going to change his situation. Do you really think forcing girls to shower with a boy will make him more accepted. I can not possibly know what he is going through and still I can be sure that if I was going through it I would not want to make others suffer the embarrassment, or awkwardness or what ever emotion a pubescent teen feels being forced to shower with a members of the opposite sex against their will. Had he not decided to force this issue I would have no issue with his being a girl and going along with him. In order to get that respect from me he has to acknowledge the reality of the harm his actions are doing to others and make some compromises. 

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I do have compassion for the situation, but forcing others into a bad situation is not going to change his situation. Do you really think forcing girls to shower with a boy will make him more accepted. I can not possibly know what he is going through and still I can be sure that if I was going through it I would not want to make others suffer the embarrassment, or awkwardness or what ever emotion a pubescent teen feels being forced to shower with a members of the opposite sex against their will. Had he not decided to force this issue I would have no issue with his being a girl and going along with him. In order to get that respect from me he has to acknowledge the reality of the harm his actions are doing to others and make some compromises.
> 
> Jim


You do realize that the original article had nothing to do with showers, right? I find nothing on Google that forces students to shower with someone of the opposite sex (I'm including non op transgenders in this group). The OP was about _forcing_ a transgender girl to use privacy curtains in the locker room when none of her teammates had to use them. Do you have a link that there is currently any school in the US that does or that there is a lawsuit in motion now regarding showering with the opposite sex? Or is this a far fetched, "I'm going to get all upset over something that _might_ happen", thing?

Finally, is it realized that we went through this is in the 50s when the schools were integrated and the government had to force whites to accept blacks into their schools, restaurants, and businesses? Then again, when the government had to force people to accept women as equals. After that, gays and now transgender. Why do people have to be forced to be compassionate human beings? I don't get it.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> Why can't you (collective you) understand this? This kid is female in all ways except genitalia. She has identified female since she could understand the concept. Transgenders don't *choose* to be the opposite sex they *are* the opposite sex. Can you imagine knowing you are female, and then looking in a mirror and seeing a man? Knowing that your body is the wrong one for your soul?


Ok, so what of the Lila Perrys out there? 'Lila' Perry self-identified as a gay male until he was 13, came out publicly as a trans this year and, at age 17, demands to use the girl's locker room. 

So what do we do about those? As one female student protested, (paraphrasing) putting on a wig and a dress doesn't make one transgender. 

Is society now expected to make special accommodations for everyone's differences, based on nothing more than how one feels?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> Ok, so what of the Lila Perrys out there? 'Lila' Perry self-identified as a gay male until he was 13, came out publicly as a trans this year and, at age 17, demands to use the girl's locker room.
> 
> So what do we do about those? As one female student protested, (paraphrasing) putting on a wig and a dress doesn't make one transgender.
> 
> Is society now expected to make special accommodations for everyone's differences, based on nothing more than how one feels?


I don't see your point- Lila Perry came out as transgender last February because she said she was tired of hiding who she was.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> *You do realize that the original article had nothing to do with showers, right?* I find nothing on Google that forces students to shower with someone of the opposite sex (I'm including non op transgenders in this group). The OP was about _forcing_ a transgender girl to use privacy curtains in the locker room when none of her teammates had to use them. Do you have a link that there is currently any school in the US that does or that there is a lawsuit in motion now regarding showering with the opposite sex? Or is this a far fetched, "I'm going to get all upset over something that _might_ happen", thing?
> 
> Finally, is it realized that we went through this is in the 50s when the schools were integrated and the government had to force whites to accept blacks into their schools, restaurants, and businesses? Then again, when the government had to force people to accept women as equals. After that, gays and now transgender. Why do people have to be forced to be compassionate human beings? I don't get it.


The article in the OP does seem to state that the trans student would now be sharing the shower with the "natural" girls. 

_Like other districts faced with this dilemma, the district tried to find a negotiated solution by putting up privacy curtains in the girls' locker room. Similar arrangements have kept schools from running afoul of anti-discrimination violations. _
_At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so. _
_The use of curtains might be OK, but* the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains*, the Department of Education report states. _
_"All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement._
_The student, who hasn't been publicly identified, participates on a girls' sports team, but *has been required to change and shower separately from her teammates and classmates.*_

Now the ruling says the trans kid can't be required to use the privacy curtains. So that puts her showering with the classmates.


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> The article in the OP does seem to state that the trans student would now be sharing the shower with the "natural" girls.
> 
> _Like other districts faced with this dilemma, the district tried to find a negotiated solution by putting up privacy curtains in the girls' locker room. Similar arrangements have kept schools from running afoul of anti-discrimination violations. _
> _At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so. _
> _The use of curtains might be OK, but* the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains*, the Department of Education report states. _
> _"All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement._
> _The student, who hasn't been publicly identified, participates on a girls' sports team, but *has been required to change and shower separately from her teammates and classmates.*_
> 
> Now the ruling says the trans kid can't be required to use the privacy curtains. So that puts her showering with the classmates.


I read it as the privacy curtains were in the locker room, not the shower. There is no absolute that non op transgender kids are going to shower with the opposite sex. At this point, it's much ado about nothing. I personally don't think it will ever happen. There are lines, and that is one that I personally don't think will be crossed. 

Can't the non transgender girls that are so upset use the privacy curtains? Seems like a good compromise to me.


----------



## Jim Bunton

]Irish Pixie;7584762]You do realize that the original article had nothing to do with showers, right? I find nothing on Google that forces students to shower with someone of the opposite sex (I'm including non op transgenders in this group). The OP was about _forcing_ a transgender girl to use privacy curtains in the locker room when none of her teammates had to use them. Do you have a link that there is currently any school in the US that does or that there is a lawsuit in motion now regarding showering with the opposite sex? Or is this a far fetched, "I'm going to get all upset over something that _might_ happen", thing?

Finally, is it realized that we went through this is in the 50s when the schools were integrated and the government had to force whites to accept blacks into their schools, restaurants, and businesses? Then again, when the government had to force people to accept women as equals. After that, gays and now transgender. Why do people have to be forced to be compassionate human beings? I don't get it.[/QUOTE]


From the original link in this thread. 


> the use of curtains might be OK, but the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains, the Department of Education report states. "All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement.
> 
> The student, who hasn't been publicly identified,* participates on a girls' sports team, but has been required to change and shower separately from her teammates and classmates.*


 What do you think is meant by this if not that that he must be allowed to to change and shower with the group in order to participate equally in school programs and activities

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> ]Irish Pixie;7584762]You do realize that the original article had nothing to do with showers, right? I find nothing on Google that forces students to shower with someone of the opposite sex (I'm including non op transgenders in this group). The OP was about _forcing_ a transgender girl to use privacy curtains in the locker room when none of her teammates had to use them. Do you have a link that there is currently any school in the US that does or that there is a lawsuit in motion now regarding showering with the opposite sex? Or is this a far fetched, "I'm going to get all upset over something that _might_ happen", thing?
> 
> Finally, is it realized that we went through this is in the 50s when the schools were integrated and the government had to force whites to accept blacks into their schools, restaurants, and businesses? Then again, when the government had to force people to accept women as equals. After that, gays and now transgender. Why do people have to be forced to be compassionate human beings? I don't get it.



From the original link in this thread. 
What do you think is meant by this if not that that he must be allowed to to change and shower with the group in order to participate equally in school programs and activities

Jim[/QUOTE]

The privacy curtains are in the locker room, not the showers. This is much ado about nothing. Your statement doesn't prove that the transgendered will shower with the opposite sex.

Did you find a link that proves your assertion that there is, or soon will be, co gender showering in public schools?


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> From the original link in this thread.
> What do you think is meant by this if not that that he must be allowed to to change and shower with the group in order to participate equally in school programs and activities
> 
> Jim


The privacy curtains are in the locker room, not the showers. This is much ado about nothing. Your statement doesn't prove that the transgendered will shower with the opposite sex.

Did you find a link that proves your assertion that there is, or soon will be, co gender showering in public schools?[/QUOTE]


The quote I posted from the original story is from Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon This is an official position and it certainly seems to me that she is saying that being required to change, and shower separately denies the transgender student " the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," quoted from Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon. 
It does prove that the Office of Civil Rights is at the very least leaning in the direction of requiring the girl showers be open to the transgender child.


Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> The privacy curtains are in the locker room, not the showers. This is much ado about nothing. Your statement doesn't prove that the transgendered will shower with the opposite sex.
> 
> Did you find a link that proves your assertion that there is, or soon will be, co gender showering in public schools?



The quote I posted from the original story is from Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon This is an official position and it certainly seems to me that she is saying that being required to change, and shower separately denies the transgender student " the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," quoted from Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon. 
It does prove that the Office of Civil Rights is *at the very least leaning* in the direction of requiring the girl showers be open to the transgender child.


Jim[/QUOTE]

Like I said, much ado about nothing. I'm done.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> The quote I posted from the original story is from Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon This is an official position and it certainly seems to me that she is saying that being required to change, and shower separately denies the transgender student " the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," quoted from Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon.
> It does prove that the Office of Civil Rights is *at the very least leaning* in the direction of requiring the girl showers be open to the transgender child.
> 
> 
> Jim


Like I said, much ado about nothing. I'm done. [/QUOTE]

Sorry to see you go Irish Pixie If anyone else is interested this is a link that makes clear the Office of Civil Rights position.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-transgender-students-legal-questions-met-20151103-story.html

In most instances the locker room and the shower are one and the same. Other wise you would have to shower and then walk down the hall in a towel to get dressed.
Jim


----------



## arabian knight

Jim Bunton said:


> Like I said, much ado about nothing. I'm done.


Sorry to see you go Irish Pixie If anyone else is interested this is a link that makes clear the Office of Civil Rights position.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-transgender-students-legal-questions-met-20151103-story.html

In most instances the locker room and the shower are one and the same. Other wise you would have to shower and then walk down the hall in a towel to get dressed.
Jim[/QUOTE]
I see so much of this liberal insane things they fall back on civil rights. Well when it comes to things like trying to make everyone the same even when it comes to bathroom PRIVACY. This fall bak on cilvil rights carp takes a BACKSEAT. They try there best to once again run everyones live. This MUST STOP~!


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> You know what common decency is? It's not telling someone that you know better than they do what is happening in their mind/body. That is the epitome of arrogance and control.
> 
> Rather than project your (collective your) arrogance and control outward perhaps you should direct your energy into changing yourself. Just sayin'.


You are kidding - right? This is like holding up a yellow flag and then sitting there and trying to tell me that it is a blue flag. Then you accuse me of arrogance. Common decency is not forcing YOURSELF upon others. Kind of like you demanding the we accept something in the absence of any tangible proof. You want us to accept that this person suffers from a condition where there is no undeniable medical proof, just throw our children under the bus to protect the feelings of this one anomaly as someone so deftly addressed them...

That is the height of arrogance


----------



## Shine

[/QUOTE]

Like I said, much ado about nothing. I'm done. [/QUOTE]

Good.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> You are kidding - right? This is like holding up a yellow flag and then sitting there and trying to tell me that it is a blue flag. Then you accuse me of arrogance. Common decency is not forcing YOURSELF upon others. Kind of like you demanding the we accept something in the absence of any tangible proof. You want us to accept that this person suffers from a condition where there is no undeniable medical proof, just throw our children under the bus to protect the feelings of this one anomaly as someone so deftly addressed them...
> 
> That is the height of arrogance


So, you'd be fine and dandy with a transgender person telling you that being the gender you are is wrong, and trying to force you into the "trans" lifestyle? Is that what you're saying? That is what you're doing to them. 

Arrogance is someone knowing what is best for someone else, control is trying to force your views on them. What you're doing totally fits. Look at yourself first.


----------



## arabian knight

Like I said, much ado about nothing. I'm done. [/QUOTE]

Good.[/QUOTE]

Bout time those on the left mind their own business and mind what they do behind closed doors and forget what others in this country are doing and try to CHANGE them with their far out ideas.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> So, you'd be fine and dandy with a transgender person telling you that being the gender you are is wrong, and trying to force you into the "trans" lifestyle? Is that what you're saying? That is what you're doing to them.
> 
> Arrogance is someone knowing what is best for someone else, control is trying to force your views on them. What you're doing totally fits. Look at yourself first.


The problem with you analogy is there is no debate about what sex someone is. Even the transgender person knows what sex he or she is. They just feel they were born the wrong sex. Or at least that is my understanding.
Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> The problem with you analogy is there is no debate about what sex someone is. Even the transgender person knows what sex he or she is. They just feel they were born the wrong sex. Or at least that is my understanding.
> Jim


There shouldn't be a debate. If you tell me that you believe in Big Foot, I have to assume you believe in Big Foot, right? I'm not going to argue with you after you stated that you believe in Big Foot, or ask you to provide proof, right? So why would people be so arrogant as to say that someone is lying or ask to provide proof of their sexual identity?

Or if I say I don't believe in god. Do you say, "Yes, you do." and ask me to provide proof?


----------



## Evons hubby

Just a thought here as to a possible solution. How about we do away with public showers, that way no one can be offended.


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> There shouldn't be a debate. If you tell me that you believe in Big Foot, I have to assume you believe in Big Foot, right? I'm not going to argue with you after you stated that you believe in Big Foot, or ask you to provide proof, right? So why would people be so arrogant as to say that someone is lying or ask to provide proof of their sexual identity?
> 
> Or if I say I don't believe in god. Do you say, "Yes, you do." and ask me to provide proof?


 I will believe them when they say they believe in big foot. If they want me to believe in big foot they will have to show me proof. 

I believe they self identify as a female. In the vast majority of situations I have no problem with treating them as they would like to be treated. For the most part I try to treat people the same, but I do tend to hold doors and offer assistance to females more then I do for males and it would be no different in this case. That being said I still don't believe that their self identity makes them a female when it comes to the few things that our society deems fit to separate women from men. 
Judging from what you said in your post above when the use of the female showers by male transgenders*. " I personally don't think it will ever happen. There are lines, and that is one that I personally don't think will be crossed." Irish Pixie*. 
I don't think we are that far apart on this issue. 

*"Can't the non transgender girls that are so upset use the privacy curtains? Seems like a good compromise to me." Irish Pixie*
I agree with you here. The problem is the Office of Civil Rights has said while the privacy curtains could be made available the decision to use or not usethem must be left up to the transgender person..
Jim


----------



## Heritagefarm

How about if we just tell everyone to use their own bathroom.


----------



## scooter

I was trying to post a link, but, it isn't working.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> I read it as the privacy curtains were in the locker room, not the shower. There is no absolute that non op transgender kids are going to shower with the opposite sex. At this point, it's much ado about nothing. I personally don't think it will ever happen. There are lines, and that is one that I personally don't think will be crossed.
> 
> Can't the non transgender girls that are so upset use the privacy curtains? Seems like a good compromise to me.


Unless you have seen the facility, you don't know. I have a hard time imagining a public school in Chicago that has individual, private showers.

The trans kid using privacy curtains was a good solution but apparently this kid is high maintenance in addition to the gender issues. The school accepted her into the girls class and sports teams with a caveat that was perfectly appropriate due to the reality of having a male body. But that wasn't good enough, and that's where we whoosh right on past equal rights into special rights.


----------



## Heritagefarm

MO_cows said:


> But that wasn't good enough, and that's where we whoosh right on past equal rights into special rights.


Quite right. Everyone has mohave something special that no one else has, or special treatment or entitlement or something.


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> Unless you have seen the facility, you don't know. I have a hard time imagining a public school in Chicago that has individual, private showers.
> 
> The trans kid using privacy curtains was a good solution but apparently this kid is high maintenance in addition to the gender issues. The school accepted her into the girls class and sports teams with a caveat that was perfectly appropriate due to the reality of having a male body. But that wasn't good enough, and that's where we whoosh right on past equal rights into special rights.


Even back in the rural schools I attended in the 70s (one graduated 300+, the other 101) had at least one single shower. Which is beside the point as no one has ever indicated that Chicago (or any other public school) had individual showers. 

IIRC, the shower issue was never brought up in the original article. The only thing mentioned was privacy curtains which are in the locker room, and then only to point out that the trans girl can't be forced to use them. 

From the original link: "At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so.

The use of curtains might be OK, but the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains, the Department of Education report states."

She's not asking for anything special, just to be equal to the other girls.


----------



## painterswife

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0203/p12s01-legn.html
Where have all the showers gone?
By Randy Dotinga, Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor FEBRUARY 3, 2004


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Even back in the rural schools I attended in the 70s (one graduated 300+, the other 101) had at least one single shower. Which is beside the point as no one has ever indicated that Chicago (or any other public school) had individual showers.
> 
> IIRC, the shower issue was never brought up in the original article. The only thing mentioned was privacy curtains which are in the locker room, and then only to point out that the trans girl can't be forced to use them.
> 
> From the original link: "At Township High School District 211, however, the line between accommodation and discrimination came down to this: whether the student would be able to choose to use the privacy curtains, or whether the school could force her to do so.
> 
> The use of curtains might be OK, but the school can't have a policy that singles out this student for mandatory use of the privacy curtains, the Department of Education report states."
> 
> She's not asking for anything special, just to be equal to the other girls.


That would be true if he was a girl. 

"The question at hand is whether the law requires school leaders to place students of the opposite sex in the same locker room without any measure of privacy," Cates said. Cates is district 211 superintendent.

One of the privacy curtains is in the shower according to superintendent Cates "the district put up four privacy curtains in unused areas of the locker room and another one around a shower. However, because the district stipulated that the student would be required to use them, federal officials balked at the plan."
This is about sharing a shower whether the original link made that clear is open to debate, but a little additional digging makes it clear. 


Jim


----------



## wr

MO_cows said:


> Unless you have seen the facility, you don't know. I have a hard time imagining a public school in Chicago that has individual, private showers.
> 
> The trans kid using privacy curtains was a good solution but apparently this kid is high maintenance in addition to the gender issues. The school accepted her into the girls class and sports teams with a caveat that was perfectly appropriate due to the reality of having a male body. But that wasn't good enough, and that's where we whoosh right on past equal rights into special rights.


I'm not sure if the kid in question would be high maintenance or not because I believe I read the child is in grade one. 

Having worked in the legal profession, I would speculate that the whole additional about the privacy curtain was nothing more than legal posterior covering that comes with these things.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> That would be true if he was a girl.
> 
> "The question at hand is whether the law requires school leaders to place students of the opposite sex in the same locker room without any measure of privacy," Cates said. Cates is district 211 superintendent.
> 
> One of the privacy curtains is in the shower according to superintendent Cates "the district put up four privacy curtains in unused areas of the locker room and another one around a shower. However, because the district stipulated that the student would be required to use them, federal officials balked at the plan."
> This is about sharing a shower whether the original link made that clear is open to debate, but a little additional digging makes it clear.
> 
> 
> Jim


Where did you find that information? Can you share the link, please? 

If there is a privacy curtain in the shower, how is that shower being shared?


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Where did you find that information? Can you share the link, please?
> 
> If there is a privacy curtain in the shower, how is that shower being shared?


I am sorry I should have supplied the link. I am 99% sure all the information came from this site.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-transgender-students-legal-questions-met-20151103-story.html

The school can not require the student to use the curtain according to the Office of Civil Rights.

Jim


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> There are lines, and that is one that I personally don't think will be crossed.


So as long as you get to draw or at least agree with the lines society can't cross, you are ok with lines. Interesting!


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> She's not asking for anything special, just to be equal to the other girls.


But he's not a girl, so how can he be equal to them?


----------



## Shine

Jim Bunton said:


> I am sorry I should have supplied the link. I am 99% sure all the information came from this site.
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-transgender-students-legal-questions-met-20151103-story.html
> 
> The school can not require the student to use the curtain according to the Office of Civil Rights.
> 
> Jim


The boy in the OP is 17, there are other similar situations listed below that including the one with the 1st grader.

The young man stated that he did not want to use the privacy curtain, his parents got a lawyer and viola... here we be.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> But he's not a girl, so how can he be equal to them?


Repeatedly stating a silly opinion doesn't make it so, thankfully. Why don't you worry about your sexual identity and everyone else will determine their own? Seems easy enough, right? You can't control what other people think, no matter how hard you want to. 

You can't tell any transgender person that they are not the sex they know they are. They already know who they are. 

I can tell you that you're wrong and there is no god, is it true? It's my opinion, can I force you to believe it? That makes about as much sense as a stranger telling a transgender person they they are wrong about _their_ gender. Do you understand now? That voice inside yourself that made you decide there is a god, is the same one that tells the transgender that they were born the wrong sex.


----------



## Irish Pixie

nchobbyfarm said:


> So as long as you get to draw or at least agree with the lines society can't cross, you are ok with lines. Interesting!


Sorry, I'm missing your point. Can you explain?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I am sorry I should have supplied the link. I am 99% sure all the information came from this site.
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-transgender-students-legal-questions-met-20151103-story.html
> 
> The school can not require the student to use the curtain according to the Office of Civil Rights.
> 
> Jim


Your link won't work for me. It wants me to pay or at least register, I'm not doing either. 

All this disagreement is a waste of time. To deprive a transgender student something that other students have or do, is a violation of their Civil Rights.

From the original link: "The federal government has followed suit. Last year, the Obama administration announced that transgender people are protected from discrimination under the Civil Rights Act."


----------



## oneraddad

They didn't get the wrong plumbing, they got the wrong brain.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> *Repeatedly stating a silly opinion doesn't make it so, thankfully.* Why don't you worry about your sexual identity and everyone else will determine their own? Seems easy enough, right? You can't control what other people think, no matter how hard you want to.
> 
> You can't tell any transgender person that they are not the sex they know they are. They already know who they are.
> 
> I can tell you that you're wrong and there is no god, is it true? _*It's my opinion, can I force you to believe it? *_That makes about as much sense as a stranger telling a transgender person they they are wrong about _their_ gender. Do you understand now? That voice inside yourself that made you decide there is a god, is the same one that tells the transgender that they were born the wrong sex.


It's not a silly opinion. It is reality. Biologically, he is male, he has a penis. It's not a _myth_, it's not an opinion, it's a penis.

Re: the 2nd sentence I bolded; the problem is that the federal government is trying to FORCE others to accept this unreality. 

Now, explain the logic to me how this person can force his beliefs on others (even if they don't believe what he believes) yet Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves.

The boy is free to believe whatever he wants to believe. For some reason, that's not good enough.....others have to make special concessions for his beliefs.

That is a two-edged sword.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> Your link won't work for me. It wants me to pay or at least register, I'm not doing either.
> 
> All this disagreement is a waste of time. To deprive a transgender student something that other students have or do, is a violation of their Civil Rights.


Nobody is depriving him of his rights. He's completely free to use the boy's locker room.

Penis = Boy.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> It's not a silly opinion. It is reality. Biologically, he is male, he has a penis. It's not a _myth_, it's not an opinion, it's a penis.
> 
> Re: the 2nd sentence I bolded; the problem is that the federal government is trying to FORCE others to accept this unreality.
> 
> Now, explain the logic to me how this person can force his beliefs on others (even if they don't believe what he believes) yet Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves.
> 
> The boy is free to believe whatever he wants to believe. For some reason, that's not good enough.....others have to make special concessions for his beliefs.
> 
> That is a two-edged sword.


Two words: Civil Rights. 

I have to make special concessions for your religion- it's on my money, it's on most court houses, it's in the daily lexicon, and more. I've learned to live with it, and I'm confident you can learn to live with the transgendered. Or not. It really doesn't matter because of the two words I typed above.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> Two words: Civil Rights.
> 
> I have to make special concessions for your religion- it's on my money, it's on most court houses, it's in the daily lexicon, and more. I've learned to live with it, and I'm confident you can learn to live with the transgendered. Or not. It really doesn't matter because of the two words I typed above.


What special concessions are you having to make because of what's written on money or buildings? Does that money spend the same in your hand as everyone else? Which of your rights or freedoms are being infringed?

Again, people are free to be transgender. This boy is free to use the boy's locker room. What you (collective) are ignoring is that the girls' rights are being denied. 

Can you justify that?


----------



## Jim Bunton

The link goes straight to the story for me. I wouldn't have paid or registered to read it either. 
I will assure you that anything I quoted was cut and paste with no edits. 

I don't know if this link will work for you but it is a link to the full text of the department of education report.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-doe-report-on-district-211-20151102-htmlstory.html

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> What special concessions are you having to make because of what's written on money or buildings? Does that money spend the same in your hand as everyone else? Which of your rights or freedoms are being infringed?
> 
> Again, people are free to be transgender. This boy is free to use the boy's locker room. What you (collective) are ignoring is that the girls' rights are being denied.
> 
> Can you justify that?


It doesn't matter if I have to make a special concession or not. Civil Rights. The transgendered have rights just as you have the right to your religion. Just as we all have the right to own a gun. 

In what way are the non transgender girl's rights violated? They can use the curtained rooms right? Or not take a shower? Any of the things that the transgender girl can do, that way *all* are equal.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> The link goes straight to the story for me. I wouldn't have paid or registered to read it either.
> I will assure you that anything I quoted was cut and paste with no edits.
> 
> I don't know if this link will work for you but it is a link to the full text of the department of education report.
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-doe-report-on-district-211-20151102-htmlstory.html
> 
> Jim


I'm not saying what you've posted isn't true. I just like to read things for myself and form my own opinion. 

We're never going to agree on this...


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> It doesn't matter if I have to make a special concession or not. Civil Rights. The transgendered have rights just as you have the right to your religion. Just as we all have the right to own a gun.


The boy's rights are not being denied. He has a right to live as transgender, he has the right to use the boy's locker room. 


> In what way are the non transgender girl's rights violated? *They can use the curtained rooms right? Or not take a shower? *Any of the things that the transgender girl can do, that way *all* are equal.


There are those special concessions. The *girls* have to make the concessions. They are the ones having to make adjustments in order to accommodate someone who chooses to deny biology and reality.

Why should they be made to use the curtained rooms or not take a shower simply to accommodate a boy who believes he's a girl? What of the girls' civil rights?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Txsteader said:


> The boy's rights are not being denied. He has a right to live as transgender, he has the right to use the boy's locker room.
> There are those special concessions. The *girls* have to make the concessions. They are the ones having to make adjustments in order to accommodate someone who chooses to deny biology and reality.
> 
> Why should they be made to use the curtained rooms or not take a shower simply to accommodate a boy who believes he's a girl? What of the girls' civil rights?


I think you're deliberately not "understanding" what *Civil Rights* mean, you do understand it regarding your religion but don't seem to grasp that other people have them as well. You cannot discriminate. No discrimination. No segregation, no bias, you cannot make inferior. Do you understand?

Anything that can be set up for a transgender girl can also be used by a non transgender girl. Do you understand that? All can use the same facilities, all are the same. No discrimination. No one is forced to do anything. 

I'm trying to be sensitive but you continue to throw around words like "biology" and "reality". I have to bring up that fact that your religion is neither but you believe in it anyway. Yet you continue to state that someone can't be the opposite sex because their genitalia doesn't match? Really?


----------



## Evons hubby

Txsteader said:


> The boy's rights are not being denied. He has a right to live as transgender, he has the right to use the boy's locker room.
> There are those special concessions. The *girls* have to make the concessions. They are the ones having to make adjustments in order to accommodate someone who chooses to deny biology and reality.
> 
> Why should they be made to use the curtained rooms or not take a shower simply to accommodate a boy who believes he's a girl? What of the girls' civil rights?


The other girls don't have to make any special efforts, they are free to use curtained stalls, they are free to not shower, or to shower the same way they have done in the past. They have all the same options they have always had.


----------



## arabian knight

Jim Bunton said:


> The link goes straight to the story for me. I wouldn't have paid or registered to read it either.
> I will assure you that anything I quoted was cut and paste with no edits.
> 
> I don't know if this link will work for you but it is a link to the full text of the department of education report.
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-doe-report-on-district-211-20151102-htmlstory.html
> 
> Jim


The way the liberals use this cilvil rights carp just to justify something like THIS is sicken. Nobody is stopping them from any of their civil rights. Male is male Female is female. Plain and simple. They can go wherever their internal parts or external parts dictate. But lets not go into this carp about just because they THINK they are both they can use both. BOLONEY~!


----------



## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm not saying what you've posted isn't true. I just like to read things for myself and form my own opinion.
> 
> We're never going to agree on this...


I never felt like you were saying what I posted was false. I like to read it all myself too. That is why I kept asking for the court case that was being referred to. 
As far as us never agreeing I think we are closer then you think. Answer a question for me just to see. Do you think the young girls should be forced to share a shower or other areas where they will have very little options but seeing a male penis in the room with them or being observed by that same person. You have said this will never happen, but you never said how you would feel about it if it did. Puberty is a rough time for every one. 
Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I never felt like you were saying what I posted was false. I like to read it all myself too. That is why I kept asking for the court case that was being referred to.
> As far as us never agreeing I think we are closer then you think. Answer a question for me just to see. Do you think the young girls should be forced to share a shower or other areas where they will have very little options but seeing a male penis in the room with them or being observed by that same person. You have said this will never happen, but you never said how you would feel about it if it did. Puberty is a rough time for every one.
> Jim


It's a penis. They are everywhere, and eventually everybody will see one. I will say that there will be non trans girls that will have a problem with it, even tho they can do any number of things to avoid seeing the dreaded penis. It's not like they'll turn to stone at the mere sight of one anyway. 

We aren't going to agree on this...


----------



## Jim Bunton

I can live with that. I will say that if the ruling comes down to allowing him full access to the female shower a lot of teenage boys will want the same equal right as he is receiving. Is there any way to deny them that right?

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I can live with that. I will say that if the ruling comes down to allowing him full access to the female shower a lot of teenage boys will want the same equal right as he is receiving. Is there any way to deny them that right?
> 
> Jim


Do non transgender teen boys identify as female? Live their daily lives as female? LGTB have special rights that non LGTB do not. It's sad that some have to be forced to treat people equally. 

Ask yourself (I'm assuming that you're a straight man) would you have dressed, acted, and thought of yourself as a woman for years in order to maybe someday get a peek at a naked girl in the shower/locker room? 

It's even more ridiculous now, anyone with a computer can see a naked woman at any time. 

You're right in that puberty is a rough time for anyone. Can you imagine what it's like for a transgender kid? Why would anyone that doesn't completely believe they are the other sex go through that?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Jim Bunton said:


> I can live with that. I will say that if the ruling comes down to allowing him full access to the female shower a lot of teenage boys will want the same equal right as he is receiving. Is there any way to deny them that right?
> Jim


That's probably the 10th time that's been mentioned, and the answer hasn't changed at all.

They don't have that "right" if they aren't already *living* as the opposite sex.

It's not that hard to understand (or at least it shouldn't be)


----------



## Heritagefarm

Irish Pixie said:


> I think you're deliberately not "understanding" what *Civil Rights* mean, you do understand it regarding your religion but don't seem to grasp that other people have them as well. You cannot discriminate. No discrimination. No segregation, no bias, you cannot make inferior. Do you understand?
> 
> Anything that can be set up for a transgender girl can also be used by a non transgender girl. Do you understand that? All can use the same facilities, all are the same. No discrimination. No one is forced to do anything.
> 
> I'm trying to be sensitive but you continue to throw around words like "biology" and "reality". I have to bring up that fact that your religion is neither but you believe in it anyway. Yet you continue to state that someone can't be the opposite sex because their genitalia doesn't match? Really?



This issue is a fairly modern one. At no point in history until recently was it possible to slice a penis up and shove part of it back into the body, thus forming a vagina. And I've got no clue whether the reverse is possible, and I don't want to know, either. There is no other animal on the planet that can have genital mutilation done in this manner. Further, our society is so narcissistic now, I've got no clue if these people are genuinely confused, or if they want attention. 
Now, as to the main point here, I think the trans should be relegated to a different bathroom entirely. Public showers are embarrassing enough, who wants to honestly share with a former member of the opposite gender?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Heritagefarm said:


> This issue is a fairly modern one. At no point in history until recently was it possible to slice a penis up and shove part of it back into the body, thus forming a vagina. And I've got no clue whether the reverse is possible, and I don't want to know, either. There is no other animal on the planet that can have genital mutilation done in this manner. Further, our society is so narcissistic now, I've got no clue if these people are genuinely confused, or if they want attention.
> Now, as to the main point here, I think the trans should be relegated to a different bathroom entirely. Public showers are embarrassing enough, who wants to honestly share with a former member of the opposite gender?


It's because of views like this that we have to force people to be decent human beings by making protected classes to uphold civil rights.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> LGTB have special rights that non LGTB do not. It's sad that some have to be forced to treat people equally.


Finally we get to the truth, lgtb people have special rights. If one boy, I do not care what he tells other people, how he dresses, what his parents, what the teachers say, if one boy has the "Right" to shower with the naked women, they all should. You have made it now a right for a boy to share the showers with the women. A boy. Do you not see the logical conclusion? What the boys say does not amount to a hill of beans. 

The girls have the right to privacy, you cannot override that with your so called special rights. That is nonsensical.

Just because he says, acts or wants HIS misguided rights does not mean he can cause the females to lose their rights.


----------



## wr

I keep thinking that the more effort put into making trans kids comfortable, the more we emphasize that they are different and in doing so, sets them up for further discomfort and harassment. 

I don't dispute their desire for their gender preference but without surgery, there are physical differences. 

Regardless of how school systems handle these things, it's a tough problem that I don't believe has a one size fits all rule. If you send them off to a separate room of their own to shower and change, the rest of the school will quickly notice they get special treatment. If you throw them in with others with the same physical traits, you set them up for abuse and ridicule and if you send them in with those who's traits they identify with, they may feel uncomfortable. 

I'm certainly not saying they don't deserve respect but I am saying it's a tough problem that may not have an easy solution without remodeling the entire school shower room concept or doing away with showering altogether. 

Some have shown clear reasons, outside gender identity where family or mixed gender facilities may be beneficial and while it makes a great deal of sense for a lot of reasons, I'm not sure that small businesses and schools have the funding needed to meet new government requirements that come with new regulations.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Finally we get to the truth, lgtb people have special rights. If one boy, I do not care what he tells other people, how he dresses, what his parents, what the teachers say, if one boy has the "Right" to shower with the naked women, they all should. You have made it now a right for a boy to share the showers with the women. A boy. Do you not see the logical conclusion? What the boys say does not amount to a hill of beans.
> 
> The girls have the right to privacy, you cannot override that with your so called special rights. That is nonsensical.
> 
> Just because he says, acts or wants HIS misguided rights does not mean he can cause the females to lose their rights.


I'm sure you have heard of protected classes and civil rights? Well, since some people, businesses, etc. don't understand that people should be treated equally, the government had to provide law that would force the issue. Didn't you learn about this is school? You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Ring a bell? At all?

For the dozenth time, everyone has the same degree of privacy. The non transgender girls can not shower, change behind a curtain, change somewhere else, all the things that the transgender girl can. Equal.


----------



## MO_cows

wr said:


> I'm not sure if the kid in question would be high maintenance or not because I believe I read the child is in grade one.
> 
> Having worked in the legal profession, I would speculate that the whole additional about the privacy curtain was nothing more than legal posterior covering that comes with these things.


I believe it's high school. The article said the kid plays on the girls sports team, and I have never seen a public school have organized sports for first graders.


----------



## wr

MO_cows said:


> I believe it's high school. The article said the kid plays on the girls sports team, and I have never seen a public school have organized sports for first graders.


Yes. I had read the article a couple days before and the mentioned first grader stuck in my mind a little more but I did reread.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> It's a penis. They are everywhere, and eventually everybody will see one. I will say that there will be non trans girls that will have a problem with it, even tho they can do any number of things to avoid seeing the dreaded penis. It's not like they'll turn to stone at the mere sight of one anyway.
> 
> We aren't going to agree on this...


It is NOT ok for the school to put the girls in the position of seeing the "dreaded penis". Sure sooner or later it happens and usually by choice, but it's simply not the school's place to make it happen.

Hmmmm, but using a privacy curtain would make the trans kid turn to stone? 

Don't you see you are so over zealous to accommodate the trans kid, you are ignoring the rights, feelings and sensibilities of all the other kids?


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Ring a bell? At all?
> 
> For the dozenth time, everyone has the same degree of privacy.


Yes, I understand the Civil Rights Act. However, it is not one of those "Living Documents" that is so used by the Liberal team, it is words that all have specific meanings. It is not a document that takes from one to give to another as you would have it in this context. You may not force you views upon another if that denies them any of the significant "rights" that they currently enjoy.

To the Nth degree, a boy being allowed into a girl's area where they have, for generations, enjoyed privacy is NOT equal privacy, I do not see how you do not get that.


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> It is NOT ok for the school to put the girls in the position of seeing the "dreaded penis". Sure sooner or later it happens and usually by choice, but it's simply not the school's place to make it happen.
> 
> Hmmmm, but using a privacy curtain would make the trans kid turn to stone?
> 
> Don't you see you are so over zealous to accommodate the trans kid, you are ignoring the rights, feelings and sensibilities of all the other kids?


Nope, no one is _forced_ to do anything. 

Again, nope. They all have the same choices, all of them, equally. If you force the trans girl or the non trans girl to do anything, that's not equal. Is it? If the non trans girl doesn't want to see the dreaded penis she doesn't have to, she can use the privacy curtain, not take a shower, or change somewhere else. All the same things that were/are offered to the trans girl. 

This isn't a hard concept, they are all equal if all are treated the same way.


----------



## Txsteader

Irish Pixie said:


> It's because of views like this that we have to force people to be decent human beings by making protected classes to uphold civil rights.


There's that word again; force. 

I predict that the outcome of this (general) issue will be the death knell for the public school system. 

There's only so much that people will be forced to tolerate.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> Yes, I understand the Civil Rights Act. However, it is not one of those "Living Documents" that is so used by the Liberal team, it is words that all have specific meanings. It is not a document that takes from one to give to another as you would have it in this context. You may not force you views upon another if that denies them any of the significant "rights" that they currently enjoy.
> 
> To the Nth degree, a boy being allowed into a girl's area where they have, for generations, enjoyed privacy is NOT equal privacy, I do not see how you do not get that.


It really doesn't matter what you think. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is law. It protects the equality of classes of people. Period. End of story. 

From the link YOU put up in your first post: "The federal government has followed suit. Last year, the Obama administration announced that transgender people are protected from discrimination under the Civil Rights Act."


----------



## Shine

OK. You've been asked before. The Colorado case that affirmed that the lgbt squad is included into the mix is not in dispute. Show me the court case that indicates that "Discrimination" is found when a boy [you have to leave it there until that "boy" is changed into being a "girl"] when a boy can violate the privacy of a girl.

It is that simple.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> OK. You've been asked before. The Colorado case that affirmed that the lgbt squad is included into the mix is not in dispute. Show me the court case that indicates that "Discrimination" is found when a boy [you have to leave it there until that "boy" is changed into being a "girl"] when a boy can violate the privacy of a girl.
> 
> It is that simple.


Make your own sammich, I've done all of your research I'm going to do. Civil Rights, 'nuff said.


----------



## Txsteader

wr said:


> I keep thinking that the more effort put into making trans kids comfortable, the more we emphasize that they are different and in doing so, sets them up for further discomfort and harassment.


You're absolutely right and it's the one thing that his defenders fail to consider. 

Just because the girls are forced to tolerate his presence, doesn't mean that they'll embrace his presence. More than likely, he'll be subjected to even worse rejection than if he'd stayed in the boy's locker room.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Make your own sammich, I've done all of your research I'm going to do. Civil Rights, 'nuff said.


You've not made that "sammich" - so you go right on being disingenuous... It's your right to do so.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> You've not made that "sammich" - so you go right on being disingenuous... It's your right to do so.


You can think anything you'd like, but that doesn't make you correct.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> My post is there for all to see. It's not my problem if you interrupt the way _you_ want to.


Circular logic + duck and burrow. Interesting procedure, infuriating but interesting too.


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## Shine

The answer about the court case where a court says that the boy must have access to the girls bathrooms/showers cannot be shared because there is not one. To see the requirement, you will see that the BOE EO sections comes up with this illogical decision and attempts to force it upon all of the school aged girls of this nation. Soon, I would imagine that there will be a girl who says she is a boy who will demand access to the boy's bathrooms/showers, that will be the one to watch. Let's see them squirm then. Ha! There will be a court case, I would go all in on it becoming true because this is far outside the realm of reality. Taxpayers will probably have to pay out to either a class action suit or individual single settlements for this stupidity because, when it;s all cut and dried, what gives to one, takes away from another. It is in no way equal, it is purely a special "right" that some people on this thread are saying is crucial to their cause. If no one takes it up with the courts and it becomes across the board, I will do so once it comes to my locale. Probably won't even need a lawyer... lol

Um... What? You say that you are a girl, prove it.


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## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Snort. Yet the trans girl will be in that locker room and/or showering this week. That's showing 'em all right. :hysterical:


You might want to check your facts on that one...

&#8220;District 211 has provided individual accommodations in a manner that does not infringe on the privacy concerns of other students, and it will continue to do so,&#8221; reads a statement from the school district, which cited &#8220;privacy&#8221; concerns for students. &#8220;It is the District&#8217;s position that OCR&#8217;s unilateral mandate does not consider the best interests of all District 211 students and their families.&#8221;

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...aims-privacy-transgender-discrimination-case/

The people guarding the children under their watch in District 211 appear to have a good set of heads on their shoulders...


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## Shine

oneraddad said:


> The conservatives used to run this place and I found it very annoying, the liberal's are now just as annoying if not more so.


That's why I typically cite myself as being "Moderate" in temperament rather than hitching my wagon to either train....


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## Jim Bunton

Irish Pixie said:


> Make your own sammich, I've done all of your research I'm going to do. Civil Rights, 'nuff said.



I notice you are very reluctant to help others find information that supports your argument. Why is that? And what is a sammich?

Jim


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## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> You might want to check your facts on that one...
> 
> &#8220;District 211 has provided individual accommodations in a manner that does not infringe on the privacy concerns of other students, and it will continue to do so,&#8221; reads a statement from the school district, which cited &#8220;privacy&#8221; concerns for students. &#8220;It is the District&#8217;s position that OCR&#8217;s unilateral mandate does not consider the best interests of all District 211 students and their families.&#8221;
> 
> http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...aims-privacy-transgender-discrimination-case/


Where does it say she won't be in the girls locker room or showering? Can you point it out please? 

Good luck with that, my guess is that it will hold until funding is withdrawn from the school district.


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## Shine

Well reasoned Opinion piece in the Las Vegas Review Journal:

"But no accommodation can change the fact that the student remains a boy biologically. The U.S. Department of Education, in ordering a school system to allow a boy to disrobe and shower in an open space where girls might be doing the same, if he wants to, is well outside the mainstream and completely disconnected from social norms. By asserting that a transgender student has a right to dress and bathe in a locker room of his or her choosing, the government is ignoring the right of every other student to have some measure of privacy and not be exposed to the opposite sex in a state of undress."

http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinio...-transgender-locker-room-mandate-crosses-line


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## Irish Pixie

Jim Bunton said:


> I notice you are very reluctant to help others find information that supports your argument. Why is that? And what is a sammich?
> 
> Jim


I've bent over backward to be polite and helpful in my posts to you.

I'm truly done. If you want any more information, you can use Google. 

Good day, sir.


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## Heritagefarm

Irish Pixie said:


> It's because of views like this that we have to force people to be decent human beings by making protected classes to uphold civil rights.


Ouch.


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## farmrbrown

Since no one can "force" anyone to answer a question sometimes you have to wait for the answer or maybe not get one at all.




Irish Pixie said:


> Does "remove all boundaries" mean make people equal?





farmrbrown said:


> That' a good question.
> I'll let you think about it for a while...........





Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, no one is _forced_ to do anything.
> 
> Again, nope. They all have the same choices, all of them, equally. If you force the trans girl or the non trans girl to do anything, that's not equal. Is it? If the non trans girl doesn't want to see the dreaded penis she doesn't have to, she can use the privacy curtain, not take a shower, or change somewhere else. All the same things that were/are offered to the trans girl.
> 
> This isn't a hard concept, they are all equal if all are treated the same way.



This is about as close as I think we'll get to a direct answer.
A boundary comes with some kind of enforcement, IOW "force".
Does civil rights mean no boundaries, therefore equality?
For some, it does.


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## Heritagefarm

Jim Bunton said:


> I notice you are very reluctant to help others find information that supports your argument. Why is that? And what is a sammich?
> 
> Jim


It is very hard to find information that supports either side of this argument, as both sides are supported more by opinions and emotions rather than logic. Logic would seem to dictate that a person stay their gender - to do otherwise is a hassle as best, hazardous at worst. There are also social factors at work here. Do we protect these individuals, or ostracize them? Personally, I don't understand either side very well, as the emotional content is overriding any hopes of being rational. Science can determine how to perform the surgery, but what it cannot do is provide adequate explanation as to whether we should or should not allow such behavior.


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