# Difference between Bo-Se and Vitamin E & Selenium Gel



## CarolynRenee (Jan 30, 2008)

We've had a problem with white muscle disease in a few goat kids. What is the difference between using the Bo-Se vs. the Vitamin E & Selenium gel? The Bo-SE has to be OK'd by a vet, yet the gel does not.

I got a Bo-SE shot from my vet for last year's WMD kid with weak back legs, and it didn't seem to do anything. Then I gave him Vitamin E and a B Complex and that seemed to perk him up more than anything.

Now this year, I had the same problem with a kid from the same line. I got a scrpit from the vet, but it will take a few days to get since the vet was out. I can get more of the gel from the feed store but wanted to know if anyone has used the gel for treatment vs. prevention (for the does during pregnancy).

AND.....

In the ten years we've had goat births (almost 30 birthings, all dairy), last year was the first time we've had WMD show up. It started with the Boer, Pickles (who we adpoted as a bottle baby) offspring, and now Pickles daughter just had the bucklings with the back leg problems.

Are Boers more predisposed to a Selenium / Vitamin E deficiency, and is that hereditary? I'm finding it hard to believe that it is just a coincidence that Pickles' offspring are the only ones with this problem.

BTW, they get a Selenium supplement in their feed as our area is supposed to be deficient.

Thanks in advance for the input / opinions!


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

"Bo-Se is recommended for the prevention and treatment of white muscle disease (Selenium-Tocopherol Deficiency) syndrome in calves, lambs, and ewes, and as an aid in the prevention and treatment of Selenium-Tocopherol Deficiency in sows and weanling pigs. Bo-Se contains selenium and vitamin E. Each ml of Bo-Se contains the equivalent to 1 mg selenium and 50 mg (68 USP units) vitamin E. Bo-Se is administered by SQ or IM injection."

"All-natural vitamin E and selenium at proper levels for use in goats. Contains 500 IU vitamin E and 2.5 ppm selenium per 5 ml (max level of selenium for goats is 3 ppm per animal). Dosage for newborn goats is 2 ml. Dosage for adult goats is 4 ml. Administer once every 30 days. Palatable butterscotch flavor in a gel base. Vitamin E & Selenium Gel in a dial-a-dose tube is easy to administ*er."


*_2.5 ppm is .0025 mg_

The BoSe has much more selenium, less vit E. You can easily overdo the selenium, but vit E works very well and less chance of overdosing.

I give only the Vit E capsules to the goats. The rations have selenium as does the mineral.


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## SueBee (May 28, 2010)

I have had a few babies over the last 5 years with WMD but keep the gel on hand to use if I see it. This year all of our does will be getting a dose of the Gel a week before kidding, that should help, and yes MO is low in Selenium.


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## Wonderland (May 26, 2009)

Gel has less selenium and oral dosage is generally less risky than injecting. Oral also provides better absorption, but because there's less SE in the gel a dose may not be enough. 

It is possible for different goats to need more or less of certain minerals. That along with the fact that minerals are absorbed better given orally (and the small amount of SE in the gel) is why I've started providing selenium powder free choice alongside their minerals. Everyone can get what they need.

If you changed a feed or hay source, that might affect the selenium levels in their diets, too.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Contrary to popular belief, no research really supports that animals eat what they 'need' or to correct deficiencies. At least, I haven't seen it and that was a major point all of my nutrition professors have always made.  They eat what tastes good, and preferentially eat to sate desires and nutritional drivers such as fat and sugar - wether or not they 'need' fat and sugar. Salt/minerals can be drivers during times of massive feed intake/milk production/after kidding due to large changes in body water. They love empty calories and will pass up more nutrient dense foods for candy just like humans.  Putting out Se powder may be dangerous if one decides it's delicious - they'd eat and eat. It should safely be used as part as a diet, generally - we have it mixed in our feed. I'm not sure it's technically 'legal' to use as a free choice item. Most minerals and feeds actually have enough Se in them to stave off deficiencies, but most of us dose pre-breeding and pre-kidding to prevent any of the outliers from going deficient - the dose we use I believe is not enough to correct a true deficiency, and only 'lasts' a few weeks. Some people use it a week or so pre-kidding, which is also fine. I don't have the paper anymore as a link, but I believe in sheep that dosing pre-lambing is actually better to prevent issues in lambs than dosing newborns with BoSe. 

Generally, injectable allows for the best absorption of the routes available for administration. The gut is technically 'outside' the body, and when injecting you're putting it in a location that to move it - even if as waste - it must be 'absorbed'. I have not heard that Se is more readily absorbed given orally.

If you did oral, I'd assume you'd have to dose a bit more, but I'm not familiar with it. With BoSe I give 3-4 weeks before duedates, and 4 weeks pre-breeding. I don't want to have to mess with them more than that. The less I have to 'do' to them, the better.


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## Wonderland (May 26, 2009)

Here is what I'm basing my info off of: 

This is about livestock regulating their mineral intake:
https://extension.usu.edu/behave/files/uploads/Fact_sheets_basic/Mineral Nutr.pdf 

Short talk about mineral consumption given by Deborah Niemann at University of Massachusetts:
https://app.box.com/s/iz0s9tkowl65rowpyaehlvwa0qja1hny

"It is more effective to provide selenium supplementation through feed than by injection." Langston University: http://www.luresext.edu/goats/training/nutrition.html#min

The SE powder I use isn't mixed with anything yummy, not even salt. I think it's wheat middlings, but I'd have to look it up. What was interesting to me when I first provided it is that they treated it just as they would their regular minerals if it had run out for a couple of days: they ate a fairly good bit the first day and then their consumption dropped off. They consume very little now. I also noticed that the pregnant does eat/ate more than the dry/open does, who showed very little interest even the first day.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Interesting sources.  I'm wondering if the 'more effective' is equated to more readily absorbed, or if its easier and simply more effective because the injection 'wears off' sooner - whereas in feed/minerals, they're constantly taking it in to meet their needs.


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## Wonderland (May 26, 2009)

mygoat said:


> I'm wondering if the 'more effective' is equated to more readily absorbed, or if its easier and simply more effective because the injection 'wears off' sooner - whereas in feed/minerals, they're constantly taking it in to meet their needs.


That is a good question! I wish they elaborated more.


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## OakHollowBoers (Jun 26, 2013)

The gel would be harder to overdose them on, bo-se easier. For me, I changed feeds and no longer need to supplement. It is a deer ration specifically formulated for this area, and has double the selenium of the goat feed.


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## CarolynRenee (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks for all the info, I've been going over the stuff I haven't seen already.

I've had several more kiddings since this year's apparent WMD problem with the Boer kids, and haven't had another single kid with the problem. I'm going to have to assume that it has SOMEthing to do with the certain line and the genetics, i.e. not being able to adequately absorb/use the selenium or Vitamin E. 

I just find it too much of a concidence that the ONLY goats that have had this problem were the mother & daughter and not a single other of the dozens of kids on the farm.

Now I just have to decide if I should cull her & her daughter or just dose them with Bo-Se before breeding & right before kidding and take another chance on them. Right now, they only get the selenium and vitamin E during pregnancy in their feed and not the Bo-Se. I think I'm leaning towards culling. Why have / breed an animal that needs additional / special meds (the bo-se shots) just to have a healthy kidding.


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

I've been using the gel for years on my goats and sheep. This is selenium deficient area, and the gel has worked fine. Dose the does 30 days before kidding lambing and dose the kids/lambs the day they're born. Never a case of white muscle. I don't copper bolus either, my goats get 6 CC of redcell every week. They also have access to a good loose mineral. Running to the vet for Rx is just a waste of money.


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

I have never found a "goat feed" that I feel good with, I've always fed various brands of equine feed, generally the ones formuated as senior or complete feeds. The protein, copper, and selenium are always much higher than you'd find in a goat branded feed, for less $$$.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

CarolynRenee said:


> Thanks for all the info, I've been going over the stuff I haven't seen already.
> 
> I've had several more kiddings since this year's apparent WMD problem with the Boer kids, and haven't had another single kid with the problem. I'm going to have to assume that it has SOMEthing to do with the certain line and the genetics, i.e. not being able to adequately absorb/use the selenium or Vitamin E.
> 
> ...


Other things to consider - body size of the dams and kids is usually greater than dairy. Management is usually different. Also growth rate differences between breeds - so it may not be as simple as 'the boers got it and the rest didn't', because they may be more prone to it simply because of their purpose. Perhaps there is an inherent metabolic difference. Plus where they originate geographically may be different from your dairies and that can mean differences in genetics/traits - I'm wondering if that makes any issue. How did you diagnose WMD in kids? My understanding it's can be confused for other illnesses, yes? Thankfully I haven't had to see it. My boers were mostly percentages with dairy crosses, so perhaps if it's a breed thing perhaps that's why. I haven't heard from others that it is the case, but it would be interesting to figure out. Of course the easiest option is to cull of course and if you're not set on these guys having another chance, then whatever makes your life easier is best!


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

I posted on the sheep board about lambs that fail to thrive, despite heroic intentions. The same thing happens with kids. Sometimes, for no reason, a kid fails to thrive. A twin grows well and is robust, but it's not uncommon for the other to simply fade away, even when conditions are perfect and mom is healthy. This failure to thrive often mimics WMD. And then there is the problem with floppy kid syndrome. Often the case is a "good mother" - one who doesn't kick those tiny babies off soon enough in the first few days, and the kid overeats in that critical first 2 or 3 days, overloading its digestive system and rendering it weak and unstable, again mimicking WMD.


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## CarolynRenee (Jan 30, 2008)

I keep reading sort of conflicting info on the WMD. The last two times this happened, the kids were NOT very peppy like the dairy kids. It took them sometimes an hour or more to even get up, if they did at all (the back leg problem kids obviously didn't). My dairy kids are usually up and nursing within fifteen minutes of being born.

And they show the leg problem at birth, not after like some of the WMD pages say. Got me what's going on. I even did an autopsy on the one that died first (both kids eventually died) and there wasn't any obvious white streaking in the heart or leg muscles. 

Unfortunately I think that we're going to have to cut bait on the two does from this line.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Another factor to consider is the 2ml "one size fits all" dosing for E/Sel gel. I can't imagine it would be safe to dose a 2 pound mini newborn the same as a 15 pound standard sized kid.


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