# Do You Add Lye to the List of Ingredients?



## JudyM

I'm afraid it will freak people out! But I want to be honest. Isn't the lye rendered ineffective after the saponification? What do you do when listing ingredients?


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## Maura

No. There is no free lye in the soap I make. When you have &#8220;soap&#8221; on the label, it is understood that the lye and oils have gone through a chemical change and have created soap. You must honestly label your soap, but those who put lye on the label call it by its chemical name, 'sodium hydroxide'. You could also call it &#8216;caustic soda&#8217;. It just confuses people by putting &#8216;lye&#8217; on the label. They think there is free lye in the soap.

I list:
Olive Oil Soap
_with_
Coconut & Castor Oils
_(essential oils listed)_

Olive oil is the major oil, coconut is the second largest, and a few ounces of castor oil, so I am following the guideline to have the largest unit listed first.


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## MDKatie

It is dishonest to not include lye in your ingredients label, even if there is no free lye left over in the soap. While soap makers understand the chemical reaction between the fat and lye, most buyers do not know that difference. Anything that goes in the soap pot should go on the ingredients list, from most to least. 

Some people list "saponified" oils, but if you're listing ingredients that go into the pot, saponified oils are not on that list. I don't add saponified coconut oil to my pot, I add coconut oil and lye. 

Here's a really good explanation of how to label your soaps. 

A brief explanation of how the lye is used in the soaping process is nice for your buyers, and if you sell on Etsy or online, you can easily add a description. I have not had a single person question the lye on the ingredients label on my soap, but if they did I could explain how the process works and why most soapers superfat their soaps.


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## Maura

I think the most honest thing to do is tell people what they are getting in a manner they can easily understand. People want to know if there is something in the soap they are allergic to. They may want to know if it is all vegetable. They may want to know if there is glycerin or if there are unnatural ingredients. Not including lye in the list of ingredients is not dishonest.


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## MDKatie

Maura said:


> Not including lye in the list of ingredients is not dishonest.


I disagree. If you use it to make the soap, it should go in the list of ingredients. As a consumer, I wouldn't want a soaper picking and choosing what she wants to put on the list, I want to know everything.


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## terri9630

Maura said:


> I think the most honest thing to do is tell people what they are getting in a manner they can easily understand. People want to know if there is something in the soap they are allergic to. They may want to know if it is all vegetable. They may want to know if there is glycerin or if there are unnatural ingredients. *Not including lye in the list of ingredients is not dishonest*.



I have lots of allergies and having EVERY ingredient listed is important to me. That is why we have gone to making as much of our own "stuff" as we can. From food to soap. You'd know how important it is if you washed your hair and broke out in hives because you didn't know there was something your allergic to in your shampoo. That really sucks.


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## HillBettyMama

I used to make soap and sell it at a medium sized towns farmers market and at a few craft fairs. For my first craft fairs I had printed up the labels to include lye. So many people were argumentative when I tried to explain how the other vendors soaps had to be made with lye even though they did not list it. I only sold a handful of bars that day. I never included lye on my labels again. I agree that not including lye on a soap label is not dishonest. Perhaps if there were anoer way to make soap without lye, then it would only be fair to list which method was used. As far as my limitd knowledge on the subject of soap making I have yet to find a way to make soap without lye. Aside from that one gal that used melt and pour soap that was premade and insisted she would never use lye.


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## hippygirl

I used to list all of my ingredients and had no problems. For example, a basic soap's list of ingredients would have looked like the following (in the example, I'm showing "generic" ingredients, not actual):

_Soap (oil#1, oil#2, water, sodium hydroxide), additive/s, essential oil/s, colorant.
_
IIRC (keep in mind it's been a LONG time since I made a soap label), the "rules" said one had to list ALL of the ingredients if offering it for sale to the public.


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## Maura

I&#8217;ve had the same problem as Hill Betty. It probably depends on where you are selling your soap how informed people are. I have had people ask if there is lye in the soap, at which time I inform them that all soap is made from lye or something equally caustic. But, I add extra oils to make sure all of the lye turns to soap, and I try out my soap.

If I were to put lye on the label, I would call it sodium hydroxide.


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## NostalgicGranny

Legally you do not 'have' to list any ingredients for soap. BUT, if you list any ingredients you are legally obligated to list ALL of the ingredients from most used to least used. Or you can list the saponified name for each oil used and skip the lye.


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## FarmChix

I am completely transparent. Everything that goes in that pot, goes on the ingredient label.


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## Tinker

I list it. If anyone asks, I explain all soap is made with lye.

I even made a soap once I called "Grandma Katie's Ole Time Lye Soap". Just basic oils with no scent or color. I sold all of it (24 bars).


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## lathermaker

If you list one ingredient, you must list them all. That includes lye. If you don't want to explain to customers why you use lye, maybe you shouldn't be selling yet. Get a copy of Marie Gales book.
http://www.amazon.com/Soap-Cosmetic...TF8&qid=1457935376&sr=1-1&keywords=Marie+Gale

I hate to keep harping on this subject. But, with new legislation being proposed for home soap makers it would be wise to get up to date with labeling requirements.


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## FarmerKat

I do not sell soap myself but I used to buy from a local soap maker. In her stand at the festivals, she would have a nice, brief display explaining how lye is used in the soaps. She also lists lye on her soaps (and her website). I liked the way her booth was set up and you could not miss the little poster about lye. I do not know if anyone argued with her about it. 

I guess if you make your own lye, you could list ash and water 

ETA: Until I started making my own soap, I have often wondered how those who claim there was never any lye in their soap make it ...


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## FarmerKat

Since this thread sparked my curiosity, I looked at commercial natural soaps (like Dr Bronners and a couple others that have decent reputation) to see what is acceptable. Dr. Bronner's lists lye as sodium hydroxide with a note that "**&#8202;None remains after saponifying oils into soap & glycerin." (from their website https://www.drbronner.com/DBMS/BARSOAP/OBBA05.html). Other soaps used the term "saponifed oil".


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## Cabin Fever

If there is no lye in the soap, I have no idea why it should have to be on the label. 

When I buy fish, I see the word "lutefisk" on the label. I do not see the words "cod and lye."

When I buy a pan, I see the words, "stainless steel" on the label. I do not see the words "iron and chromium."


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## MDKatie

Cabin Fever said:


> If there is no lye in the soap, I have no idea why it should have to be on the label.
> 
> When I buy fish, I see the word "lutefisk" on the label. I do not see the words "cod and lye."


Sorry, but that's not the same. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but lutefisk is made by soaking fish in the lye solution, and then the solution is rinsed off before it's packaged or served, right? 

The lye in soap is not rinsed off. It goes in the pot to make soap, and happens to be neutralized in the chemical reaction. It is still an ingredient in the soap. You can say "saponified olive oil" if you'd rather not list "lye and olive oil", but you have to address that it was in there to begin with.


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## Cabin Fever

Lye is a chemical used to make soap. Lye is not an ingredient in soap when it's sold.


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## MDKatie

Cabin Fever said:


> Lye is a chemical used to make soap. Lye is not an ingredient in soap when it's sold.


Yep, and the ingredient label is there to show what was used to make it. I mean, by your logic, the ingredient label should just read "soap".


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## Cabin Fever

MDKatie said:


> Yep, and the ingredient label is there to show what was used to make it. I mean, by your logic, the ingredient label should just read "soap".


That is correct. Soap is a new product it is simply a salt of a fatty acid. If you're gonna list lard as an ingredient, then to be consistent the label should also list beef tallow or lard or whatever fat or oil used.

Ingredients: lard, lye, peppermint oil


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## MDKatie

Cabin Fever said:


> That is correct. Soap is a new product it is simply a salt of a fatty acid. If you're gonna list lard as an ingredient, then to be consistent the label should also list beef tallow or lard or whatever fat or oil used.
> 
> Ingredients: lard, lye, peppermint oil


Did you read any of the above posts? :hohum: I already said if you're going to list one, you have to list them all. You don't look at a package of bread at the store and see "bread" listed as the only ingredient, even though that's what the end product is, you're not buying a bag of flour, water, yeast, etc. It all comes together to make bread, just like the fats and lye and liquid come together to make soap. 

So, the label says SOAP, because that is the name of the product, but the ingredients show ALL of the things that were used to make the soap.


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## Cabin Fever

MDKatie said:


> So, the label says SOAP, because that is the name of the product, but the ingredients show ALL of the things that were used to make the soap.


I realize we are debating semantics here, but the purchaser is buying "soap". Soap is not lye and fat, it is chemically synthesized from lye and fat. Soap is defined as a salt of a fatty acid. There is no lye or fat in the product that is being sold. The chemical ingredient in that bar that s/he is buying is a salt of a fatty acid.

Let me try another analogy. The chemical ingredients of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, trace minerals, water, carbon dioxide are combined and a process called photosynthesis is used to change these chemical ingredients into corn. The label on a can of corn indicates what is in the can is corn, not the chemical ingredients from which the corn was synthesized.


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## MDKatie

Cabin Fever said:


> Let me try another analogy. The chemical ingredients of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, trace minerals, water, carbon dioxide are combined and a process called photosynthesis is used to change these chemical ingredients into corn. The label on a can of corn indicates what is in the can is corn, not the chemical ingredients from which the corn was synthesized.


Totally different things here. Corn IS the ingredient. You're not making corn, you're simply packaging it. Like milk....milk doesn't have an ingredient label (well, MOST doesn't unless it has added stuff) because milk IS the ingredient (you never see water, lactose, fat, etc on an ingredient label for milk). When you combine more than one thing to make an end product, you need the ingredient. When you combine multiple things that each have separate ingredients, you list all those too. For example, a boxed macaroni and cheese will list the ingredients: pasta (semolina, water, etc), cheese (milk, enzymes, color) etc. ALL ingredients used in there go in the final product. 


When you make soap, you choose what ingredients you use to make it. There's soap made with milk, made with water, made with cucumber juice, lard, tallow, essential oils, fragrance oils, etc. There is an infinite number of combinations you can make, which is why it is important to list ALL ingredients used to make it. You list what goes in the pot.


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## Maura

I agree that with honesty comes &#8220;soap&#8221; or &#8220;saponified&#8221;. 

_When cleaning products and detergents are processed using ethoxylation, a cheap technique that lessens the severity of the harsher ingredients, 1,4-dioxane is created. Since it is considered a byproduct of ethylene oxide reacting with other ingredients, 1,4-dioxane is technically considered a contaminant and thus does not have to be included on product labeling. As a result, consumers are largely unaware of its presence in major household products. Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/028846_laundry_detergents_dioxane.html#ixzz436cYEjS5_

Is it honest to have listed on your product _ethoxylation_, but not the carcinogenic by product produced? I would rather know that Tide contains a known carcinogenic (1,4 dioxane) than the other ingredients that were changed. The Tide label lies. Your label that reads &#8220;soap&#8221; does not. The lye has changed into something else before it gets packaged for the consumer. While I will not be washing my face with lye, I could be washing my clothes with 1, 4-dioxane.


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## terri9630

Maura said:


> I agree that with honesty comes âsoapâ or âsaponifiedâ.
> 
> _When cleaning products and detergents are processed using ethoxylation, a cheap technique that lessens the severity of the harsher ingredients, 1,4-dioxane is created. Since it is considered a byproduct of ethylene oxide reacting with other ingredients, 1,4-dioxane is technically considered a contaminant and thus does not have to be included on product labeling. As a result, consumers are largely unaware of its presence in major household products. Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/028846_laundry_detergents_dioxane.html#ixzz436cYEjS5_
> 
> Is it honest to have listed on your product _ethoxylation_, but not the carcinogenic by product produced? I would rather know that Tide contains a known carcinogenic (1,4 dioxane) than the other ingredients that were changed. The Tide label lies. Your label that reads âsoapâ does not. The lye has changed into something else before it gets packaged for the consumer. While I will not be washing my face with lye, I could be washing my clothes with 1, 4-dioxane.



That is why I started making my own soap. So I know what's in it. We raised the pig for lard, pumped and filtered the water from the well and even though I bought lye it can be made with wood ashes. And we have lots of those.....

Omissions and "technically not an ingredient" cause my family lots of problems. I'm allergic to *something* in detergents, soaps and shampoos and my daughter's digestive system can't take even minimally processed, commercially preserved foods. Ingredients are VERY important to us. Epi pens are expensive......


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## 4nTN

FarmerKat said:


> I do not sell soap myself but I used to buy from a local soap maker. In her stand at the festivals, she would have a nice, brief display explaining how lye is used in the soaps. She also lists lye on her soaps (and her website). I liked the way her booth was set up and you could not miss the little poster about lye. I do not know if anyone argued with her about it.
> 
> I guess if you make your own lye, you could list ash and water
> 
> ETA: Until I started making my own soap, I have often wondered how those who claim there was never any lye in their soap make it ...


sounds like my booth possibly...NE Tn and all.


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## Daydreamer7102

http://www.mariegale.com/ingredient-labels-soap/


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## Polarbearforge

I didn't list it when I was selling soap, but in the ingredients, I would list it as "saponified mixture of coconut, palm, and almond oil". The oil list is made up in the example, but you get the idea. It's not necessarily omitting lye, but it is rather listing the end result of the chemical reaction.

Jamie


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## Nsoitgoes

Polarbearforge said:


> I didn't list it when I was selling soap, but in the ingredients, I would list it as "saponified mixture of coconut, palm, and almond oil". The oil list is made up in the example, but you get the idea. It's not necessarily omitting lye, but it is rather listing the end result of the chemical reaction.
> 
> Jamie


Except unless you have every single batch of soap you make tested by a laboratory you do not know what proportion of each oil was saponified and what proportion was left over as a superfat. The law requires that if you list ingredients, they are to be in descending order of content. If you do not know, and cannot prove, that your coconut oil saponified more than your olive oil then you are technically breaking the law.

As you *do* know the proportions of your ingredients going into your pot, listing them on your label keeps you on the right side of the law and saves you having to explain how you made soap without lye when someone (and it *will* happen fairly often) asks if yours is lye soap, if there is lye in your soap, tells you that Bubbles Overload in the next booth doesn't use lye, and that she can only use Dove anyway. 

It is far better to be well versed in a simple yet truthful explanation. In my little pamphlet I give a short blurb about my products and also a few FAQs - some of which explain the role of lye, how superfatting results in all the lye being "used up" in the saponification process and how a vendor can claim that they don't use it. (They use melt and pour - which is still made with lye, but before they purchased it).


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## GetAGrip

If this helps, here's a shot of how I label mine: If you follow a Soap Calculator (such as http://soapcalc.net/) to formulate your soap, it shouldn't be lye heavy. If not, well, then, It might be...







Kerry
https://www.etsy.com/shop/GetaGripSoapCo


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