# Separating Doe and Kid



## kanpope (Oct 14, 2004)

We are first time goat owners and this will be the first time that I will be milking. We are picking up the goats tomorrow (7 does, 1 buck, and a buckling - all NDG) and my head is spinning with questions and concerns. :help: 

If anyone is willing to take the time to answer my question, I will be greatly indebted to you! :bow: 

1. The lactating doe has a 4 day old (tomorrow) buckling...I want to milk her but do not want to bottlefeed the baby. I don't want to deal mith milk replacer, bottles, sterilizing, etc. So, I read that I can leave them together during the day, separate them at night, milk the doe in the morning, and then put them back together. Does this sound accurate? I know that I will not get a lot of milk, but seeing that we are just starting out with this...I will roll with the punches. 

2. I also read (I have read a lot  ) that the doe may cry the first night or two away from it's mama. I am planning on putting the three older goats together, the buck by himself (obviously), and the four 6 month olds together with the buckling. The 6 month old kids are still nursing when the does will let them, so I want to keep the older does away from the buckling as well. So, do I need to do anything for the kid theose nights that it is crying? My daughter wants it to sleep with her. LOL Any thoughts on that? 

3. I know that nb breastfed human babies need to nurse at night. Is the same true of the kid? Do I need to give him anything during the night other than hay? I read that he will not take the doe and a bottle. 

4. What do I really need to milk this doe? The books say that I need a ton of things and I want to know what I _really_ need. I was about to go to Caprine Supply and spend $150 and decided that I need to wait and see what the real deal is. I have a stainless steel bucket. I have filters. I have a stainless steel household strainer. Do I need teat dip and an anti-bac for afterwards? Are there other everyday, readily available items that I can use instead? 

5. I am going to make a milk stand _eventually_ but in the meantime, what can I use to milk this goat on Monday? Can I just tie her to a gate while my dd gives her treats? She has been milked before but it has been a couple of years.

I think that is all for now... :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:


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## TexCountryWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

Hi!

I think 4 days old is a bit young to separate all night from the momma. If it were me, i would give the little baby a bit more time to nurse more frequently and get a bit stronger. I no longer dam raise my kids, but when i did, I would leve the kids on for weeks and still milk the doe in the morning, getting what milk i could. Supply and demand would increase the milk supply. I also breastfed (4 babies) and as you know, the more milk they take, the more milk is produced. You milking the doe will simply make her produce more milk even with the baby on 24/7. The momma needs good nutrition in order to do this though. free choice alfalfa pellets for the calcium, not free choice grain. Start the afalfa slowly though if she has not been on them. Feed the grain only while she is being milked in the morning and she may stand to be milked better and then feed her a meal of grain in the evening. Later (when you wean the kid completely) you will be milking her twice a day on a milkstand and you will feed her grain twice a day only an the milkstand, with alfalfa in front of her at all times in the pen. My grain is mostly whole oats with a small amount of corn chops mixed in. My full sized milking goats get about 2 lbs each feeding on the milkstand, so as you see, a ND would get much less each feeding or would bloat.

Yes, you can milk her with someone restrainindg her but do it the same each time. Routine is important to goats. They like things the same. A milkstand will make it much easier though.

By feeding her grain only at milking time, she will be more willing.

As far as milking utensils, no, don't buy all that expensive stuff. Make do for awhile. As a teat dip, use a bleach solution of 1/4 cup bleach to 1 gallon water. Get a little jar with a cap and then open it and just dip her teat in it when you are done milking. If she chaps, it's too strong.

prior to milking, you can clean her udder with unscented baby wipes.

We drink our milk raw, so I just chill it down rapidly in the freezer section of the fridge til just before it freezers (use a timer) and we drink it fast and don't let it linger in the fridge for days. If we don't use it, it goes to the dogs, etc.

You will get into a comfortable routine before you know it. Sometimes the first few months are tough and a bit crazy. Don't give up. You will find your method. Your hands and arms may hurt til you develope your muscles and strength then it becomes second nature.

Keep asking questions


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## TexCountryWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

Oh, and I grow out my little goats on alfalfa pellets, hay and loose goat minerals. They do great. Start offering that to your baby right away. He will start nibbling and play eating at first, but they learn fast.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

I prefer to wait until the kid is about a month old to separate at night. Others might do differently. By then, he should be okay with the older kids, but I'd keep an eye on him at first.

When I first started with goats, I ordered a bunch of expensive stuff I never use (not even the milk bucket!) I milk into a gallon glass jar. For udder wash, I use 1/4 cup bleach in 1 gallon of water, and pour it up in a $1 spray bottle. You will, though, need milk filters. (Though I have a friend who uses coffee filters.)

mary


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

Congrats on your new goats! 

I left my buckling on his mom 24/7 until he was two weeks old, then I started putting her into another stall at night with my Alpine yearling and an old Nigerian doe, both dry. Gabriel stays in his own stall with my big Saanen (who is due any minute, but not showing signs as of this morning :grump: ) I usually find him curled up beside his "auntie" Polly in the morning. :angel: When she kids and her babies are old enough, I'll just leave the kids together at night, and separate the moms.

I apparently have another Nigerian due any minute - I didn't think any of them were due until at least August. I haven't quite decided how I'll separate them, or even if I'll try and milk her. She's in a small pen with another herdmate, as my two original Nigerians are miserable and pound on them. :flame: I think I have to do some rearranging in my barn - soon! LOL

As for equipment: I have a stainless steel compost bucket to milk in, but for a Nigerian, I've heard that stainless steel "dog" bowls work well, as they will fit under the goat. I bought a stainless steel colander which I line with a coffee filter, put it into a canning funnel and strain the milk into wide-mouth, glass canning jars. I did buy the gallon jugs of udder wash and acid wash - I put smaller amounts into pump bottles (from the dollar store!) and I find it quite economical.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

I have a page on my website that shows my rather non-standard milking equipment. Here's a link: http://www.glimmercroft.com/MilkingEquipment.html . 

I separate kids at night starting between one and two weeks of age. I find that once the kids get a couple or a few weeks old, if I don't separate them, they will drink up all the milk. I once had an Oberhasli doe with twins. I didn't separate the kids, and after about three weeks, I noticed that she seemed to be drying off. There was very little or no milk when I milked her. Then I took the kids away overnight. In the morning, I milked out THREE QUARTS! She was producing about 12 pounds a day (that's a gallon and a half of milk!) and the kids were taking it ALL! And no scours or anything. Boy was I surprised!

For separating kids, I built a little pen that adjoins the adult pen, and has a section of horizontal slats spaced about an inch and a half apart near the floor. This way, the doe and kids can see and smell each other, but the kids can't nurse. Everyone seems to be much more calm using this kind of pen. I do not feed kids during the night.

I would strongly caution against keeping any females with the buckling once he gets to weaning age - 8 to 10 weeks of age. He can and will settle does starting at about 3 months of age. And although they don't show it very much, Nigerians can and will breed during any season of the year. I would get the little guy a wether for a companion, or even better, a second nice buckling so you can have enough available genetic diversity to keep the occasional very nice doeling, and to get his mother bred.

And do yourself a huge favor and build a milking stand pronto. It will take a little wood, a circular saw, hammer and nails or a drilldriver and screws, and about 4 or 5 hours tops. Once you have one, you will wonder why you waited so long to do it, even if you do it today! I'm betting that if the does are feeding kids and haven't been milked in a couple of years, they're going to fight you, and it is infinitely easier to deal with that when you have a stanchion. I also find it VERY helpful to milk from behind the goat rather than to the side.


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## kanpope (Oct 14, 2004)

I cannot thank you all enough for all th information, advice, and wise words. I have actually printed off a few of the responses in order to keep them close at hand. I love the computer, but I NEED paper! 

Thank you again! I am so happy to be a part of this wonderful community!


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## kanpope (Oct 14, 2004)

pookshollow said:


> I left my buckling on his mom 24/7 until he was two weeks old, then I started putting her into another stall at night with my Alpine yearling and an old Nigerian doe, both dry.


Would it be safe to put the buckling in with my buck at night? 

I cannot put him in with the other does because all are in some stage of lactation and the young does stay with their mothers and have never been apart. I do not want to traumatize them. So I do not think that I can separate them? 

Any ideas?


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## Robin007 (May 9, 2018)

We fashion quick stalls for our NDG kids with pallets. Just make sure they are well secured so they can't push through. Very easy makeshift stall and the little ones are so small they don't need much room overnight.


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## Rosepath (Feb 18, 2011)

Putting the buckling in with the adult buck might be risky for the little guy. Maybe a small stall like Robin mentions above.
Adult bucks can be pretty territorial, especially as he'll be adjusting to a new situation, and it wouldn't take much for him to kill the buckling. (Even if it were his own son, yes, it could happen.....had friends who introduced their adult ram to "his very own lovely ram lamb" and went into the house to get their celebratory glasses of wine, only to return to the stall to find a dead ram lamb. They were horrified. Nature is how it is, sheep and goats don't have human perspectives on their offspring)


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## Robin007 (May 9, 2018)

Yes, even the other mommas can be quite aggressive to other kids. Going out of their way to push them around. It's a part of their herd mentality, but I keep the wee ones separate until they can fend a bit better.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

1. Bottle feeding is only as difficult as you make it - one kid would be a breeze. I know some don't agree, but I think it's easier than dam raising especially in some desired management systems. Kids need to be fed 2-3x per day (depending on how intense your growing program is - we do 3x per day as long as convenient and usually let them self wean). We are going for growth on breeding stock and quality animals raised. And no, you don't need to sterilize bottles for goat kids.  A good system takes literally minutes per feeding with often the longest part being the microwaving of milk. (which is also optional, honestly). You'll need to be home at least 2-3x per day but having a farm, that is usually not a suprise.  I don't feed replacer but when I am short of goat milk (rare), I use whole vit D cow's milk from the store, pop it in the microwave and feed. Bottles are rinsed with soapy water and allowed to dry. I usually have several kids at once so instead usually fee with a lambar bucket feeder. It's faster than bottles in that the tubes only get cleaned every few days and allows one person to feed up to 10 kids at a time. 

If you want to milk that doe, another option would be to market him cheaply and sell him as a bottle kid for someone else to bottle feed. Nigies make good pets and since most males are not breeding quality, that may be the best option to reduce stress on him and the dam both of which who will scream if separated. Some have success with isolating to a dog cage so the dam can still see them, but I have heard of other does in the herd bashing the cage to bits with the kids inside. It's just a goat's nature.  

2. Goats will cry during weaning from dam raising situations. Animals tend to yell when in heat, when hungry (or if they think feed is coming their way), at milking time, and at any other stimulatory time. To avoid this in kids, don't dam raise and cull animals that excessively scream. Pulling my dairy kids at birth has eliminated the several days of weaning-screaming I used to 'enjoy' when I dam raised my boer kids (back when I raised boers). Gawd it was terrible. My alpines are quite quiet for example, but if I got a yell-y one it would probably need to be perfect otherwise to stay.  

3. Goat kids will nurse all night if allowed to, but may not need to once they are a couple weeks of age. Many people start separating at 2 weeks of age if they are dam raising without issue. Newborns that are very young (first couple weeks of life) should be allowed to nurse at will because they need a constant intake of milk to maintain their energy to stay warm and active. Starvation-hypothermia syndrome is a #1 killer of sheep and goat babies and while it seems odd they would die during warm months, they sure can. Essentially starvation (which happens a LOT faster in neonates than older animals) leads to an energy deficit. Goat kids WILL take the bottle and the dam if trained to do so. Some kids will need to be hungry enough to accept the bottle the first time, but many herds do both bottle and dam raising successfully. 

personally for good growth, I supply a lamb or goat grower ration free choice to kids. Especially as you wean, this is important. They may eat only a small amount while nursing or getting large milk feedings by bottle, but the earlier they eat solid foods the better their rumen will work. A slower growing goal would be fine with hay and a mineral, but keep in mind for continued good growth you will need to replace the nutrition in milk with solid nutrition. You don't do that and while they will not starve, they will not grow like weeds either. This means bucklings and doelings that you cannot breed the first fall and/or won't meet growth requirements for slaughter. Totally depends on your goals. 

4. Milk bucket (I use a cheap stainless stock pot from the dollar store), milk strainer/filters. Udder wash - we use a splash of bleach and blue dawn dish soap in a couple quarts of water. POST DIPPING IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO TO PREVENT MASTITIS, so DO NOT skip this step! Get a decent teat dipping cup, and a quality teat dip. The chlorhexidine based teat dip at Tractor Supply is just a couple bucks per gallon, so there really is no excuse to skimp. Sure, with your single doe in milk you may not see mastitis - but if you do, it is often completely ruinous to that udder and can be extremely deadly. Why risk it when it is so inexpensive and EASY to prevent? 

5. Milking her on the ground may work. It really depends mostly on how well she was trained and her demeanor at a new place. The best of goats can freak at a new place. I suggest feeding her her grain mix instead of treats to keep her pre-occupied. (which lactating dairy goats will generally require to produce the excessive amounts of milk they are bred to produce unless she is naturally a poor producer - otherwise be prepared to milk piddly amounts not worth the time it takes to wash the milking equipment). It also may break your back in the meantime, so be prepared for that. At 4 days old for her kid, I'd actually just suggest you DON'T milk her till about 2 weeks fresh and milk her after you have a stand. I would still feed her on that stand daily till she's ready to be separate from him, and 'practice' milking by sitting beside her and going through the motions of milking WITHOUT expressing milk, so she's good and ready by milking day. Goats are creatures of habit. 

Finally, I'd like to say that do not be suprised if your freshened doe does not blow you away with production this year. Moving goats is extremely stressful in-lactation. Lactation is the HARDEST, most taxing life-stage an animal undergoes, much more taxing than pregnancy and growth. Add moving and a huge management and life change, and you may see a poor lactation. This is NORMAL. The fact this doe also had a single kid means she is not producing like gangbusters anyways - it goes without suprise that does with multiples produce more and more milk the more kids they have. 

Have fun with the new herd and hope the learning curve goes easy on you. The first couple years can be fun and 'easy', but be prepared for the parasite bloom you'll likely see next year or in two years in both kids and mature does.  Next year with kiddings you'll likely see better production. Don't forget to train does to the milkstand and start their pregnancy/lactation diet in the milkstand ~1 month prior to kidding to support both the late pregnancy and ease the transition to the lactation diet.  Good luck!


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