# CL/CAE Transmittable to Family



## SunKissedAcres (May 12, 2008)

Ok, I've been reading and reading. Here and the internet. I'm seeing and hearing BOTH answers. I've been told that CL/CAE are not transmittable to humans (i.e. m family).

I bought most of my herd from one woman. She had about 50 goats, and I bought 16 total from her, 10 does, 1 buck, 5 babies. I talked to her about CL/CAE and LET HER KNOW I did NOT want this in my herd. She told me she vaccinated for CL, and that she didn't test for CAE that it was too expensive, but that in 15 yrs. she'd NEVER had a case of it. (Yes, I'm a newbie, and gullible).

So I get them home, with my boers. I have since learned that people don't run boers and nubies together because boers carry cl/cae and nubies are extremely susceptible to them.

So after about 2-3 weeks, I notice that one doe has a lump on the side of her face. I called the seller, and she said that that particular doe had not been vaccinated for CL, because she was at a different farm until the day before I bought her. (Yes, I find this out AFTER I got her home, great huh?) So, it did burst and I'm sure it is CL. I've since had another that WAS vaccinated ALSO get a lump on her face, in the same place.

The doe that currently has a lump on her face is the one I am milking. She also has HUGE, swollen knees. We ARE drinking RAW milk. I read that CL is transmittable to humans. But also read that it isn't. I need to know if it is or if it isn't. I want to keep on RAW milk. To me, it makes no sense to have goats, and pasturize the milk. The whole point is to get it the way God gives it to us.

I know I'm going to get both answers, but I'm just trying to really wrap my head around this. At this point, the only thing I could do, would be sell off all of the animals, and get out of the goat "business" altogether. I REALLY don't want to do that.

So tell me, what do I do with a herd that is CAE/CL+? I'm mostly just going to keep the meat for us, and use the milk for us, and sell some on the side. But I don't want something that can infect us. How bad is it to have a CL+/CAE+ herd? Help????


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

CL is transmittable to other animals, including us. I believe the only way it can be in the milk is if they have an abcess in the udder that bursts, which is a possibility. CAE will not hurt you though.

I would call her and tell her the animals have symptoms of both CL and CAE and that you told her when you purchased them that you didn't want either diesease and bought them under the agreement they were clean, and that you would like to return them. You have not exposed them to any other goats (right?) so she cannot say they got it from your place.

Or if you can't return them, have a vet check this lump, send in the pus and see if it really is CL (blood tests for CL are inaccurate, that is they can give false negatives, so you need to send the actual pus in - also with these animals being vaccinated, they will all test positive for it by blood). If it isn't (I don't know much about CL, not familiar with where they usally crop up, but having two animals with lumps is suspicious) then test all the does for CAE, get rid of any positives and start from there. CL is much worse (IMO) than CAE as CAE doesn't really spread easily from adult to adult, usually just to the kids by the milk, but CL is very persistent and can last in your soil for, I believe, 7 years. You don't want it on your property.

Oh, and I don't believe nubians are any more suceptible to CAE or CL, nor that all boers carry either. But it does seem a higher percentage of boer breeders really don't care about these diseases so getting clean boers can be more difficult.


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## SunKissedAcres (May 12, 2008)

Can't return them. 1.) It's been more than 2 months since I bought them and 
2.) I DO have a few boers already.

Since she didn't have CL before (according to her) I'm assuming that my boers have it, and passed it to the nubies.

If I cull them all, then I'm basically out of goating. At this point, I'm certain it's CL, so my land is infected. I'm so confused. Now I'm thinking that my horses will get it (CL) and that if I got cattle (to replace the goats) then they'd get it as well. I HAVE to have SOMETHING here, or we'll have to move. The goats originally were for our tax exemption (but I fell in love with goats!!!!). Without the tax exemption, we CANNOT afford the taxes on this place, and would have to move.

I'm saving a bit of money, not having to buy milk, but if I can't even use that, then I'm not getting anything, since I can't sell the goats now.

Is there anyway at all to tell is there's an abscess in the udder? And if we DO get it, is there a cure? 

I'm so exhausted over all of this!


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

From my understanding, and keep in mind this is without any direct experience with either disease on my part, just from what I've read about them, CL IS transferable to humans (alhtough I am not sure exactly what form that would take as it would seem to be more of a health threat and really something they'd crack down on, on an official level if it were since it is prevelant in quite a few herds, both meat and dairy even though some of both sides do work hard to eradicate it)... however from my understanding CAE is not transferable to humans.


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## GoddessKristie (Jun 18, 2007)

Here is some interesting things I came accross conscerning CL

"Although human infection is rare, take sanitary precautions when treating and handling infected animals. Always wear disposable gloves, and wash your hands and clothes after you have been in contact with a suspect animal."
From the University of Arkansas publication found here http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-3095.pdf

and 
"Caseous lymphadenitis is a chronic contagious disease of sheep, goats and occasionally
cattle, deer, horses, and humans."
Fom an A&M Pub found here http://uvalde.tamu.edu/staff/rick/Goat Gathering IV/Health/CASEOUS LYMPHADENITIS.pdf


Also
"The virus causing this disease is contagious to humans and any person handling goats with sores should wear rubber gloves."
From a Langston University Pub found here http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/library/field/herd_health99.htm

This is pretty much a good example of the info I have found. I only trust reputable sources, experts and Universities. From the information I have found it seems that the disease is transmittable to humans, but only through the puss found in the abcess. Because this is a SKIN disease I would only be conscerned if there were an abcess ON the utter or teats that could leak puss into your milk. 
I may have more information for you later, I'll let you know!


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## 4Hmomwyo (May 7, 2007)

Don't assume that you're boers had it. CL can and will lie dormant until a stressful event, such as pregnancy or moving to a new herd before it will crop up. I know there are people who have managed the CL by having clean herds and CL herds housed separately. Hopefully they will contact you on the specifics.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i'm very sorry you have to go through this difficulty. 
what i would do is, get a vaccine and vaccinate all your goats for cl. cull those that are getting abcsess repeatedly. keep them as stress free as possible. bred them. make another pen ready, far away from your infected herd. when they are ready to kid, be there, snatch every kid from the doe when it comes out, don't let it even hit the ground. take the kids away and raise them separate. practice strict cae,cl prevention. feed the kids always first and the infected herd last. cull as you go.
cae is not transmitted to humans but although very rare, cl can.
good luck


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

GoddessKristie said:


> Because this is a SKIN disease I would only be conscerned if there were an abcess ON the utter or teats that could leak puss into your milk.


CL=CAESUS LYMPHADENITIS is a disease of the lymphatic system. not a skin disease  but yes, i would also be concerned in getting puss in the milk from an active external abscess near the udder.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I would get it tested first before you worry. I had a vet last year scare me so badly about CL and it turned out to be nothing! I did alot of reading while waiting for the test to come back. The vaccine is meant for sheep and not goats so it is not very effective if at all. In some cases it might make them ill. http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-3095.pdf

If does turn out to be and it did burst on the ground, yes it will stay contaminate for a long while. 

As far as horses are concerned it is a different virus:
Pigeon fever is a SIMILAR disease caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. "A different biotype of the organism is responsible for a chronic contagious disease of sheet and goats, Caseous lymphadenitis, or CL." The site is here: http://www.completerider.com/ucolorado/PIGEONFEVERINEQUINES.html

That _wonderful_ vet scared my neighbors about the goat giving the horses pigeon fever that we had to research that as well. 

I doubt your Boers gave it to the Nubians. I wonder if the goats she kept are showing any signs of illness, lumps or bad knees. I would tell her it started with her goats and maybe she can pay for testing if she will not give you a partial refund. 

Have the test done and then go from there. From what I read CL while it can be zoonotic is rarely "caught" by humans. So I would not worry about you or your family getting it if you keep your hands and milk clean. Good Luck!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. 

Sorry but when you culture a goat for CL even though we call it Caseous (cheese) lymphitis (gland) the bacteria present is Corynebacterium pseudotruberculosis...also found in horses, also found in dogs, also found in humans. Each disease in another species is simply just called something else.

How you started in goats is pretty typical. I would do as Susanne says, it's how everyone back in the 80's started because we didn't have testing back then, once we did, we quaranteened or killed off or old herds. Gleaned doe kids and important bucklings from their dams before they nursed or hit the ground and moved them into clean barns, clean pastures. All chores were done on the clean farm first, boots seperated for use in the dirty barn including all equipment. It can be done but there can be nothing transmitted from clean to dirty or vice versa, not chickens and not dogs. Vicki


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