# Sex And The Single Man



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

“Masturbation is not the happiest form of sexuality, but the most advisable for him who wants to be alone and think. I detect the aroma of this pleasant vice in most philosophers, and a happily married logicians is almost a contradiction in terms. So many sages have regarded Woman as temptress because fornication often leads to marriage, which usually leads to children, which always leads to a respectable job and pretending to believe the idiocies your neighbors believe. The hypocrisy of the sages has been to conceal their timid onanism and call it celibacy.”
― Robert Anton Wilson


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Even in marriage many men end up living a lifestyle of celibacy.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

ET1 SS said:


> Even in marriage many men end up living a lifestyle of celibacy.


When a woman weaponizes her affections a man has little choice.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Sorry, I have no need, desire nor facination in discussing it.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

homesteadforty said:


> Sorry, I have no need, desire nor facination in discussing it.


Then don't


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

God killed Onan because what Onan did was a betrayal of his marital and familial obligations and a wickedness in the sight of his lord. Marriage isn't supposed to be about sexual gratification, it's supposed to be about commitment and familial responsibilities and obligations under the Old Covenant. If all a man needs out of marriage is sexual gratification he does not need a wife to do the work to gratify him and he should not get married. He can easily and more quickly self-gratify himself through his own _handy_-work and self ministrations. 

.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> Then don't


Sorry, I thought you would elaborate on your seeming fascination with it... that could be an interesting discussion... or at least a good laugh.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tom Horn said:


> When a woman weaponizes her affections a man has little choice.


Or she just doesn't find you sexually attractive or worth her time.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

homesteadforty said:


> Sorry, I thought you would elaborate on your seeming fascination with it... that could be an interesting discussion... or at least a good laugh.


I came across the quote this morning and was taken with the truth of it.



Did you hear about the little boy who his mother caught in flagrante delicto?

She shouted, "Johnny, stop that! Do you want to go blind?"

To which Johnny responded, "Aw Mom, can't I just do it until I need glasses?"


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> Or she just doesn't find you sexually attractive or worth her time.


I was in a pub last Saturday night, drank a few, and noticed two very large women by the bar. They both had pretty strong accents, so I asked, "Hey, are you two ladies from Ireland?"

One of them chirped saying, "It's WALES, you friggin' idiot!"

So, I immediately apologized and said, "I'm sorry. Are you two whales from Ireland?"

I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Tom Horn said:


> “Masturbation is not the happiest form of sexuality, but the most advisable for him who wants to be alone and think. I detect the aroma of this pleasant vice in most philosophers, and a happily married logicians is almost a contradiction in terms. So many sages have regarded Woman as temptress because fornication often leads to marriage, which usually leads to children, which always leads to a respectable job and pretending to believe the idiocies your neighbors believe. The hypocrisy of the sages has been to conceal their timid onanism and call it celibacy.”
> ― Robert Anton Wilson


As I've said before, you need to find a girlfriend.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tom Horn said:


> I was in a pub last Saturday night, drank a few, and noticed two very large women by the bar. They both had pretty strong accents, so I asked, "Hey, are you two ladies from Ireland?"
> 
> One of them chirped saying, "It's WALES, you friggin' idiot!"
> 
> ...


Looks are only part of sexual attraction for most women. Jerks are a definite turn-off no matter how funny they think they are.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> Looks are only part of sexual attraction for most women. Jerks are a definite turn-off no matter how fun they think they are.


Now if that ain't a double-edged sword comment, I don't know what is.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Paumon said:


> God killed Onan because what Onan did was a betrayal of his marital and familial obligations and a wickedness in the sight of his lord.


Wow that went off into Left Field quickly.

Onan violated the Law. The only other example of Levirate marriage in the Bible is Boaz [to maintain the bloodline of Christ].

Levirate marriage, is commanded in Deuteronomy 25:5–10

Deuteronomy 25:
:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

:6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

:7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.

:8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;

:9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.

:10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

ET1 SS said:


> Wow that went off into Left Field quickly.
> 
> Onan violated the Law. The only other example of Levirate marriage in the Bible is Boaz [to maintain the bloodline of Christ].
> 
> ...





> The term "Onanism" is sometimes used as a reference to personal indulgence, or excess. More commonly, it is used as an alternate word for masturbation. Though common, this particular use of the word "Onanism" is misleading. The Biblical story of Onan is not at all about masturbation, but exploitation and rebellion.
> 
> In Genesis 38:8-10, Onan is commanded to follow the Law and provide a child for his brother's widow. This practice of a "levirate marriage" was meant to carry on the deceased man's family, giving his widow a legally-official heir to provide for her. Onan was willing to take advantage of the law in order to have sex with his sister-in-law, but purposefully withdrew early so he would not impregnate her. Whether he did this in order to give himself additional sexual access to her, or simply because he did not want to provide an heir for his brother, the Bible does not say.
> 
> ...


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

kinderfeld said:


> As I've said before, you need to find a girlfriend.


I think what he really needs is a big, tough, no-nonsense boyfriend to tune him up and set him straight. A girlfriend would be useless to him and such a choice would be a cruel disfavour to the girlfriend because, unless she's a lot bigger and meaner than him, she will end up being abused in the variety of misogynistic ways that he has already demonstrated in his writings and memes. There is a reason for him being single over and over again. 

.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

ET1 SS said:


> Wow that went off into Left Field quickly.
> 
> Onan violated the Law. The only other example of Levirate marriage in the Bible is Boaz [to maintain the bloodline of Christ].
> 
> Levirate marriage, is commanded in Deuteronomy 25:5–10 ...... snip .....


I know what levirate marriage is but I don't care about it and it isn't the point of my comment. Onan abused the woman and he disobeyed his obligations. He got the sexual gratification he wanted out of using her body but instead of impregnating her and fulfilling his only real duty to her, to his family and to his lord, he let his seed go wasted to the floor, so his God killed him. The point is that as a consequence the act of masturbation and letting one's seed go to waste is also referred to as onanism.

.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Paumon said:


> I think what he really needs is a big, tough, no-nonsense boyfriend to tune him up and set him straight. A girlfriend would be useless to him and such a choice would be a cruel disfavour to the girlfriend because, unless she's a lot bigger and meaner than him, she will end up being abused in the variety of misogynistic ways that he has already demonstrated in his writings and memes. There is a reason for him being single over and over again.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


>


LOL. Thank you. I've always liked that song, and although I'm old enough to be his granny I'd let that sexy singer tune me up too if he wanted to. 

.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)




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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Tom Horn said:


> I was in a pub last Saturday night, drank a few, and noticed two very large women by the bar. They both had pretty strong accents, so I asked, "Hey, are you two ladies from Ireland?"
> 
> One of them chirped saying, "It's WALES, you friggin' idiot!"
> 
> ...


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Paumon said:


> I think what he really needs is a big, tough, no-nonsense boyfriend to tune him up and set him straight. A girlfriend would be useless to him and such a choice would be a cruel disfavour to the girlfriend because, unless she's a lot bigger and meaner than him, she will end up being abused in the variety of misogynistic ways that he has already demonstrated in his writings and memes. There is a reason for him being single over and over again.
> 
> .


Great- then, in a few weeks, after several men have dumped him, we’ll get to enjoy an endless deluge of threads about how gay men are no good at gaying, how he gayed better than anyone before him, and the fact that they didn’t induct him into the Gay Hall of Fame and appoint him Emperor of all Gaydom for life, after his long and storied career of gayman for over two weeks, is just proof that they’re incompetent narcissists who wouldn’t know good gaying if it poked them in the butt.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Great- then, in a few weeks, after several men have dumped him, we’ll get to enjoy an endless deluge of threads about how gay men are no good at gaying, how he gayed better than anyone before him, and the fact that they didn’t induct him into the Gay Hall of Fame and appoint him Emperor of all Gaydom for life, after his long and storied career of gayman for over two weeks, is just proof that they’re incompetent narcissists who wouldn’t know good gaying if it poked them in the butt.


Bravo!


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)




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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Tom Horn said:


> When a woman weaponizes her affections a man has little choice.


To assume this would be the reason, is short sighted.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> To assume this would be the reason, is short sighted.


…short something.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Sex is a recreational pursuit, with the burdensome side effect of children, and a mother-in-law. You can hire it for a much smaller investment in time and money, and the end result is almost always a better product. Or if you want it done right, do it yourself.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I guess we really will argue about anything...........


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Cornhusker said:


> I guess we really will argue about anything...........


This is true as true can be.... Let's argue about camel foot now.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> To assume this would be the reason, is short sighted.



It is not generally disputed that prostitution is the oldest profession.

Women who sell their bodies for money and men whose only goal in a job is purely monetary are both prostitutes, as both are trading the use of their bodies for money only.

My experience is that if you wish to paralyze a woman from the waist down, put a ring on her finger.

Women have long known that the male libido is much stronger than a woman's and have used it to their advantage for centuries.

The best way to avoid becoming a sexual beggar/slave is self-service.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

JRHill02 said:


> This is true as true can be.... Let's argue about camel foot now.


Foot, or toe?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JRHill02 said:


> This is true as true can be.... Let's argue about camel foot now.


OK - It is camel toe


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Get married. Then you have to respond in kind.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Paumon said:


> God killed Onan because what Onan did was a betrayal of his marital and familial obligations and a wickedness in the sight of his lord. Marriage isn't supposed to be about sexual gratification, it's supposed to be about commitment and familial responsibilities and obligations under the Old Covenant. If all a man needs out of marriage is sexual gratification he does not need a wife to do the work to gratify him and he should not get married. He can easily and more quickly self-gratify himself through his own _handy_-work and self ministrations.
> 
> .


Has any one reliable fact checked your source of stories for accuracy ?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Or she just doesn't find you sexually attractive or worth her time.


Sounds like a good reason for a divorce. Time to move on it seems for someone.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

muleskinner2 said:


> Sex is a recreational pursuit, with the burdensome side effect of children, and a mother-in-law. You can hire it for a much smaller investment in time and money, and the end result is almost always a better product. Or if you want it done right, do it yourself.


You've got that backwards. Sex is for the purpose of making children. God made it pleasurable so you'd do it.
You specified women as prostitutes and as far as I can tell you are correct. Us women are just out of luck when we'd like to pay for some pleasure......or as the old joke goes,. I'm not paying for sex, I'm paying for them to leave afterwards.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> Has any one reliable fact checked your source of stories for accuracy ?


I think you should do that fact checking yourself ...... you _are_ reliable, aren't you? ...... and then get back to us with your results. 😊

.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Tom Horn it is a shame you had such a bad experience with woman.
I guess that gives you the motivation to generalize and speak poorly of them.

I have had bad experiences with men.
I found it most liberating to not give a Fk about their poor behavior rather than hold it against all men.

Perhaps someday you can find the same peace.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

This post is in no way a reflection of anyone on this forum. It's just an observation is all. 

I know a guy who throws money around when he is near women. Then he gets mad when all he attracts is money hungry women. He keeps her around long enough to find another one that is just the same as the last one. He doesn't understand why he only attracts these types of women.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Tom Horn it is a shame you had such a bad experience with woman.
> I guess that gives you the motivation to generalize and speak poorly of them.
> 
> I have had bad experiences with men.
> ...


Ecclesiastes 7:27 “Look,” says the Teacher, “this is what I have discovered:

“Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things—
28 while I was still searching
but not finding—
I found one upright man among a thousand,
but not one upright woman among them all.

My negative experiences with man-eating woman have caused me to be very selective about the company I seek.

That is why I have been pretty much alone for 20 years and am prepared to never have a companion.

Not all women are evil, like my maternal grandmother who seethed with hatred in Jesus' name, my mother who wished me dead rather than married to my ex who she introduced me to, and my ex who stole $50,000 from each of our children.

However, in 65 years of living, I have not met but 5 women who had a modicum of true character. my paternal grandmother, my maternal aunt, my mother in-law and my two daughters.

I very much desire companionship, but not at the cost of emasculation, and that is the price that nearly 100% of women demand to be paid.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Insulting half of HT members seems like a poor way to foster dialogue so some may interpret this as trolling.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

wr said:


> Insulting half of HT members seems like a poor way to foster dialogue so some may interpret this as trolling.


If by half the members, you are referring to the women, I am not a misogynist.

My intent is not to generally cast a blanket disparage. 

Each person, whether male or female that I meet gets a clean slate with which to start.

They are the ones who choose what is scribed thereon.

If they choose to be insulted by my revelations of past interactions and thereby become defensive, that is not my doing, it is their internalization and self-personalization thereof and not my personal indictment against them. 

I do not at all hate women, there are women in my life that I hold in very high regard, albeit very few.

Likewise men, I can count on one hand the number of men that I trust to have my back.

If anyone wishes to know, they should ask, not leap to erroneous conclusions and seek the intervention of the authorities to cover their timidity.

P.S. No one has a gun to their head forcing them to either read or participate in any OP that I begin.

I find it very curious that those who feign gross offence would tarry long enough to become indignant.

It must be exactly what is expressed in the following beginning at 2:10.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Weren't they supposed to be coming out with robots for this sort of thing? Haven't heard an update on that in quite a while. 🤔🤔
If they can be programmed to build fence and wash dishes I'll buy one!


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Tom Horn said:


> If your comment is directed at me, please show me how I am insulting half the members.
> 
> Thank you


Dude, please stop with the passive aggressive and victim hood when challenged. It impresses no one.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

My brother, who is a multiple-times looser with women and a single guy that just hit his fifties.....

I told him..... Forget the eight-twelves..... eight on beauty and 12 on crazy....... and......

Just choke the chicken.... and then... fly fish, kayak, ride motorcycles, explore, etc.....

Stay away from crazy... I told him.

.........


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

From what I have observed from the guys around town, the women act in reaction to how they are treated. And yes you are insulting a large portion of the population here.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kmac15 said:


> From what I have observed from the guys around town, the women act in reaction to how they are treated. And yes you are insulting a large portion of the population here.



If that is directed at me, your comment cuts both ways.

Both sexes react and respond to the way they have been treated.

That does not mean that people lose their civility, it's just that after being taken advantage of after offering kindness, one tends to become somewhat jaded.

It's neither a male, nor female characteristic, it's a human reaction to repetitive stimulus.

I weary of those who demand to have their cake and eat it too.

One-sided relationships do not flourish.


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## Heartbroken (12 mo ago)

Tom Horn said:


> I very much desire companionship, but not at the cost of emasculation, and that is the price that nearly 100% of women demand to be paid.


Nearly 100%, eh? Ever look in the mirror for the answer for that? You get out of relationship what you put in to it and tarring all women with the same brush just ticks me off. I know a lot of women who respect and honor their husbands.
My Husband was a real man. He provided for me, he protected me, he cherished me and always put me first. I appreciated and cherished him and never tried to belittle him, make him feel small, demand his paycheck and send him away cold, or whatever else you think could have compromised his manhood or be "payment" to me. 
I loved him with all of my heart. I didn't demand anything or take him for granted. He was the leader, the strength, the brains, the very much better half of me and without him I am nothing. We had each other and that was all we needed. I will forever be thankful that I had such a man, in all of his manliness.
It's sad that you've evidently never thought to treat a woman right but saw her as an enemy that somehow threatened your manhood. When you put the other person first, everything else comes together, and a spouse is a most precious gift that must be cherished.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Heartbroken said:


> Nearly 100%, eh? Ever look in the mirror for the answer for that?  You get out of relationship what you put in to it and tarring all women with the same brush just ticks me off. I know a lot of women who respect and honor their husbands.
> My Husband was a real man. He provided for me, he protected me, he cherished me and always put me first. I appreciated and cherished him and never tried to belittle him, make him feel small, demand his paycheck and send him away cold, or whatever else you think could have compromised his manhood or be "payment" to me.
> I loved him with all of my heart. I didn't demand anything or take him for granted. He was the leader, the strength, the brains, the very much better half of me and without him I am nothing. We had each other and that was all we needed. I will forever be thankful that I had such a man, in all of his manliness.
> *It's sad that you've evidently never thought to treat a woman right but saw her as an enemy that somehow threatened your manhood.* When you put the other person first, everything else comes together, and a spouse is a most precious gift that must be cherished.


Yes, nearly 100% and yes, I have and I know that I have lived an honorable life.

Virtūs et Honos 

I acknowledge that there are actual successful, mutually supportive/loving marriages out there.

The only one that I saw modeled was that of my maternal aunt and her husband.

I was married to a woman to whom I did everything that I could to have a good relationship.

It wasn't enough.

She dumped me after 26 years of marriage having worked my gluteals off providing for four children and building a life, so that she could pursue a second childhood.

I walked away from a furnished house, late model car, with no job and just the clothes on my back because I did not want to press my legal rights and leave her homeless because I felt that it would set a poor example for my children to see. There was not even a dust bunny out of place.

I lived the next five years homeless while I built my life back from zero.

In five years I had $100,000 in the bank.

She went on to steal $50,000 inheritance from each of our three living children, $150,000 total, in cash and that was after she was handed nearly $400,000 in free-and-clear real estate.

Thank you for jumping to your misandrist, stereotypical, pre-conceived conclusions about someone that you know absolutely nothing about whatsoever.

You and the rest of the ill-informed scalping party weighing in only prove my point, while all the while accusing me of being the one that is guilty of casting disparage.

I am not a misandrist in spite of what your confirmation biases tell you.

It's just that after a lifetime of being eviscerated by some of the best female tormentors on the planet, I am quite selective about my female associations, thank you very much. 

Listen at 0:55


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

If the majority of women you've been involved with throughout your life have all eviscerated you that should tell you that you've been doing something wrong with all of them. And something wrong that you've done to yourself and taken away from your failed relationships. 

Maybe it was your persecution complex and chronic complaining, maybe not, maybe it was other things. But in any case, after all these years of suffering and anguish if you still haven't figured out by now what's wrong and you're still this miserable about women I'd suggest you get some professional counselling. Seriously, you need some help.

I wasn't joking when I said I think you need a boyfriend as your companion to tune you up because a boyfriend will understand and be able to relate better to your psyche's problems than women would. And if he has a strong character he won't permit you to put him down and he'll make you stiffen your spine.

.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@Heartbroken, I am sorry for your loss.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

If you are marrying or dating for sex, then you probably won't have a good relationship.
It's not about who you go to bed with Saturday night, it's who you wake up with Sunday morning.
After a while the sex becomes more infrequent, and someday will likely stop all together, so you better have other reasons to be together.
Lust is temporary, love is forever.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Tom Horn said:


> Yes, nearly 100% and yes, I have and I know that I have lived an honorable life.
> 
> I acknowledge that there are actual successful mutually supportive/loving marriages out there.
> 
> ...


It takes two to make a marriage and it takes two for a marriage to fail.

Obviously, she was dissatisfied with something or she wouldn’t have left.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> This post is in no way a reflection of anyone on this forum. It's just an observation is all.
> 
> I know a guy who throws money around when he is near women. Then he gets mad when all he attracts is money hungry women. He keeps her around long enough to find another one that is just the same as the last one. He doesn't understand why he only attracts these types of women.


Kinda like wearing see through yoga pants and being mad when men stare.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Kinda like wearing see through yoga pants and being mad when men stare.


See through or not, it is hard not to stare


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> See through or not, it is hard not to stare


I get it! I am a woman and if a woman has nice breasts and she has them half hanging out I end up noticing them. I don't stare, but I mean, if they are out- you see them. I mean no disrespect. Just admire nice breasts.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> I get it! I am a woman and if a woman has nice breasts and she has them half hanging out I end up noticing them. I don't stare, but I mean, if they are out- you see them. I mean no disrespect. Just admire nice breasts.


I admire your honesty. There is nothing more hypocritical than a female putting the girls on display and then chastising a male for looking at her breasts.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Paumon said:


> If the majority of women you've been involved with throughout your life have all eviscerated you that should tell you that you've been doing something wrong with all of them. And something wrong that you've done to yourself and taken away from your failed relationships.
> 
> Maybe it was your persecution complex and chronic complaining, maybe not, maybe it was other things. But in any case, after all these years of suffering and anguish if you still haven't figured out by now what's wrong and you're still this miserable about women I'd suggest you get some professional counselling. Seriously, you need some help.
> 
> I wasn't joking when I said I think you need a boyfriend as your companion to tune you up because a boyfriend will understand and be able to relate better to your psyche's problems than women would. And if he has a strong character he won't permit you to put him down and he'll make you stiffen your spine.


How does one be at fault when it is his own mother and grandmother doing the evisceration when you are but a child?

My mother and grandmother were both seriously damaged individuals and visited their hurt on men in general because to them, they blamed all men for their problems. 

My grandmother had my mother out of wedlock in 1935, she was a barroom girl that liked to drink and later "got religion" and self-righteously hated people, "in Jesus' name."

She poured the oil of vitriol down my mother's throat from childhood and my mother too grew up and hated all men.

It didn't matter that the men were their teenage sons and grandsons.

I will not follow you down the misandrist road you are on, doing your best to bait me into a confrontation.

I have a very healthy regard for women that are worthy of that regard.

My eldest daughter is at the top of the list.

I also have a very healthy positive self-regard and do not require your back-alley, coat-hanger, psychological evaluation. 

Keep in mind that when you point the finger there are three pointing right back at you.

I have not one homosexual inclination and it is most odious and insulting that you suggest I get a boyfriend.

How dare you hypocritically accuse me of misogyny while you smear me by your misandrist insinuating accusations of personal cowardice and a need for a homosexual relationship.

You are quite a piece of work.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

wr said:


> It takes two to make a marriage and it takes two for a marriage to fail.
> 
> Obviously, she was dissatisfied with something or she wouldn’t have left.



Obviously

Any coward can run when the situation is not going 100% their way.

It takes guts and commitment to work things out.

It takes being an adult.

She wanted to go back to being a teenager again.

She wanted it all her way.

So she took the easy road.

As it turns out, she did me a tremendous favor, she removed her toxic presence from my life.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Kinda like wearing see through yoga pants and being mad when men stare.


Often they are not mad. They just want to start up the conversation. 

Or so I have been told. 

Nothing will open your eyes like being designated driver for girls night out.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)




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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It doesn't take 2 to make a marriage fail. It takes only one to make life so miserable for the other person that the other person is left with no options but to split, for their mental health or physical safety. I won't repeat some of the stories I have heard from abused women, but they could not have ever made those marriages work.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> It doesn't take 2 to make a marriage fail. It takes only one to make life so miserable for the other person that the other person is left with no options but to split, for their mental health or physical safety. I won't repeat some of the stories I have heard from abused women, but they could not have ever made those marriages work.


I completely agree.

The same holds true for abusive women.

They may not be strong enough to physically abuse; however, they are experts at ripping out the souls of the men who love them.

Abuse and gaslighting know no gender.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> It doesn't take 2 to make a marriage fail. It takes only one to make life so miserable for the other person that the other person is left with no options but to split, for their mental health or physical safety. I won't repeat some of the stories I have heard from abused women, but they could not have ever made those marriages work.


And it isn't just abused women. At one time I pursued a mutual goal and it was accomplished. But it was harder than she expected. So she threw up her hands and said "Let's just go back to XX". Ah, not. Cattle, schedules, haying.... No, we don't get to do that. If we do it has to be unwound correctly. She left (with some kids) and inevitably destroyed the project with the help of city lawyers.

Country life is exceptional. And I mean that in the broadest way. I was not without error. But many years after the fact I understand it was due to the destruction of the 10 year project the destruction of our family with 7 kids and more. Still to this day it haunts me.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Tom, these old clips are kind of fun. But they don't validate the truth of any situation.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Women have long known that the male libido is much stronger than a woman's and have used it to their advantage for centuries.


Maybe true up to age 25 or so, but otherwise that's a myth. Women just aren't into bad sex. If it's good, she'll initiate just as much if not more than the man.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Women have long known that the male libido is much stronger than a woman's and have used it to their advantage for centuries.


Women have been led to believe that initiating intercourse is 'not proper for a lady'. It doesn't mean they don't want sex, they have just been led to believe such desires should not be acted on.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes, there are cases where the woman is the abuser in a relationship. Men don't air their dirty laundry like women do. Women talk to their friends and coworkers. Men don't like to admit their wife is a harpy and/or hits them.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> See through or not, it is hard not to stare


That really depends.


…and I wasn’t going for a play on Depends, but it is applicable.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> Women have been led to believe that initiating intercourse is 'not proper for a lady'. It doesn't mean they don't want sex, they have just been led to believe such desires should not be acted on.


I think that is out the window these days though. Many young guys I talk to today are afraid to approach women at all.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> I think that is out the window these days though. Many young guys I talk to today are afraid to approach women at all.


That might be, I don't know how today's kids are being taught by their parents or if they are being taught by their parents. Maybe there's a reason the young guys are afraid to talk to young women. Maybe the young guys are afraid of being accused of sexual harassment or set up for #metoo bs. Because we all know a young woman would never take advantage of a man. 🙄 (that last sentence was sarcasm)


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

I think it’s the modern perfection perception. Everyone tries to be so perfectly polished, and social media helps them sell that story, so what used to be difficult because “she smells good and has boobies” has become “she’s a supermodel music video star… and has boobies”. 

I don’t know if it’s as difficult for the girls, but suspect that it isn’t, because the social-media-polished persona for young males is that they’re aloof, stupid thugs who are one YouTube challenge away from an early funeral. Girls might be scared of them, but not for the same self-confidence challenging reasons.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> That might be, I don't know how today's kids are being taught by their parents or if they are being taught by their parents. Maybe there's a reason the young guys are afraid to talk to young women. Maybe the young guys are afraid of being accused of sexual harassment or set up for #metoo bs. Because we all know a young woman would never take advantage of a man. 🙄 (that last sentence was sarcasm)


Yeah, I could sign up for #meetoo but women (cougars) are not monsters in the public eye right now. Maybe in a few years it will catch up. 

Of course, I never complained back then.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

At my high school, a male teacher got a young, 14 or 15 year old, student pregnant. He lost his job and I believe her parents pressed charges. The next year one of the female teachers ended up pregnant by one of her teenage students. She kept her job, divorced her husband and moved the male student into her house. There was a double standard then, they may still exist today.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Not all women are evil…. But one can hope!


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

HDRider said:


> See through or not, it is hard not to stare


Sometimes like men at a gentleman's club, sometimes like men at a carnival side-show.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Tom Horn said:


> View attachment 111527


Proof that you shouldn't believe everything you read.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Danaus29 said:


> Yes, there are cases where the woman is the abuser in a relationship. Men don't air their dirty laundry like women do. Women talk to their friends and coworkers. Men don't like to admit their wife is a harpy and/or hits them.


Boy oh boy! My wife and I have known numerous women who needed no prodding to let anyone willing to listen know every fault and wrong, every mistake their husbands have made since they have been married to eachother.
My wife told me once, when a spouse feels the need to degrade their marriage partner in front of others, it really reflects just as poorly on them. After all, they married them.

My experience with men, is that they tend to keep their criticisms to "My old lady is a B****".


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

TxMex said:


> Weren't they supposed to be coming out with robots for this sort of thing? Haven't heard an update on that in quite a while. 🤔🤔
> If they can be programmed to build fence and wash dishes I'll buy one!
> 
> i can wash my own dishes but i'm in desperate need of a fence. i wonder do those robots do full body massages. i'm definitely in need of one today. i've been working on the side of my hill at my rock garden since 6am and every part of me is in pain. i'm actually slumping and half lying down while i'm typing this. it's times like this i really miss my husband. ~Georgia


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Women have been led to believe that initiating intercourse is 'not proper for a lady'. It doesn't mean they don't want sex, they have just been led to believe such desires should not be acted on.


My Grandparents raised me and the only talk I got on sex was don't do it. I definitely saw no touching or affection between my Grandparents. 
So I had no idea about the no initiating thing. Actually ran one fella off. Guess he couldn't handle someone being an equal rather than a submissive in the bedroom 🤷


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

TxMex said:


> My Grandparents raised me and the only talk I got on sex was don't do it. I definitely saw no touching or affection between my Grandparents.
> So I had no idea about the no initiating thing. Actually ran one fella off. Guess he couldn't handle someone being an equal rather than a submissive in the bedroom 🤷



My grandparents were much like your grandparents. I never saw them hold hands, kiss each other good-bye or even give one another a little pat on the butt. My sex talk from my mom consisted of "see your little brother? That's what you get if you mess around."


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> My grandparents were much like your grandparents. I never saw them hold hands, kiss each other good-bye or even give one another a little pat on the butt. My sex talk from my mom consisted of "see your little brother? That's what you get if you mess around."


I didn't even get that much of a talk! 
When I asked Grandpa how to tell a girl calf from a boy calf he said a girl pees out the back and a boy pees underneath. A few days later I asked how to tell if they weren't peeing? He didn't respond 😂
I was amazingly nieve as a child and they worked hard to keep me that way.
The first pregnant woman I was around was my Aunt and I was really curious but Granny would shush me when I tried to ask questions. She should have been in charge of a nunnery!


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Paumon said:


> I think you should do that fact checking yourself ...... you _are_ reliable, aren't you? ...... and then get back to us with your results.
> 
> .


Sound like your comment is from a bible. If so then I personally have great reservations about its accuracy verses what really happened. It’s well known how stories change with the telling and writing, and almost all versions of bibles cover a lot of years and retellings, not to mention which bible or version is being used. I am reliable enough to know that attempting to fact checking such tales would be silly waste of time.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> Sound like your comment is from a bible. If so then I personally have great reservations about its accuracy verses what really happened. It’s well known how stories change with the telling and writing, and almost all versions of bibles cover a lot of years and retellings, not to mention which bible or version is being used. *I am reliable enough to know that attempting to fact checking such tales would be silly waste of time.*


Okay. Yes, it's a parable from some kind of ancient holy Hebrew book full of history, parables and metaphors, and maybe it is biblical but I couldn't tell you if it's biblical or not. 

But if that's how it sounded to you and you already believe that fact checking such a tale is a silly waste of time (your words above) then why did you ask _me_ if I know if anyone reliable has fact checked the source of the story for accuracy? 

To answer your question you asked - How would I know? I'm not thousands of years ancient enough to know if and when the accuracy of the story has been fact checked, and by who, and to be honest I don't care. I don't think it's important anyway. It's the parable about selfishness, betrayal and abuse that was the point.

.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

TxMex said:


> I didn't even get that much of a talk!
> When I asked Grandpa how to tell a girl calf from a boy calf he said a girl pees out the back and a boy pees underneath. A few days later I asked how to tell if they weren't peeing? He didn't respond 😂
> I was amazingly nieve as a child and they worked hard to keep me that way.
> The first pregnant woman I was around was my Aunt and I was really curious but Granny would shush me when I tried to ask questions. She should have been in charge of a nunnery!


Hahaha! 

You should have seen my grandma's face when I asked her what the light tan colored oblong things were inside one of the roosters I was gutting! I think she choked because it was a couple minutes before she said they were testicles.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

painterswife said:


> Or she just doesn't find you sexually attractive or worth her time.


But isn't that part of the deal, you cannot "fool around" but you have it at home.

I Ta problem with this in general actually.

People constantly talk about THEIR RIGHTS, but not about their responsibilities.

Being attractive to your mate is part of that, otherwise you are just a burden.
Sitting in bed eating ramen until you can balance the bowel on your stomach is inconsiderate at best.
and YES, it goes both ways, and NO, I am not saying perfect, or staying 16.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

kinderfeld said:


> View attachment 111449


Until one sits on you...


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Redlands Okie said:


> Sounds like a good reason for a divorce. Time to move on it seems for someone.


Consider the source...


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

TxMex said:


> Weren't they supposed to be coming out with robots for this sort of thing? Haven't heard an update on that in quite a while. 🤔🤔
> If they can be programmed to build fence and wash dishes I'll buy one!


That is because they are "keeping it under covers" ha ha ha


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

When I worked in Liberia, I had an old man working for me as a guide. He was in his 70's and had three wives. He explained to me his thoughts on marriage. First, he said that men and women have nothing in common, and trying to live in the same house was just stupid. Second, he said that a man should marry sisters, as they came of age. They already knew each other and already had a pecking order. They would share in the household chores, and could help each other when needed. 

Third, the most important thing was whenever you married a woman you should build her, her own house. He had three wives, all sisters, and each one had her own house. The last bit of advise he gave me was, only visit a woman one day a week. And never spend the night.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> When I worked in Liberia, I had an old man working for me as a guide. *He was in his 70's and had three wives*. He explained to me his thoughts on marriage. First, he said that men and women have nothing in common, and trying to live in the same house was just stupid. Second, he said that a man should marry sisters, as they came of age. They already knew each other and already had a pecking order. They would share in the household chores, and could help each other when needed.
> 
> Third, the most important thing was whenever you married a woman you should build her, her own house. He had three wives, all sisters, and each one had her own house. The last bit of advise he gave me was, only visit a woman one day a week. And never spend the night.


You mean he had three women he occasionally had sex with. Sounds like a fulfilling relationship for all involved, and he sounds like a person I'd definitely take relationship advice from.

Also left me wondering what household chores the sister wives shared in since they all apparently had separate houses, but then I realized, again, he probably didn't really have a clue what he was talking about and that's when I kind of stopped caring completely.

ETA - Liberia isn't a wonderful place to be a woman or a girl. That's why in most places where women can choose how they want to live, it doesn't end up looking like this.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it's not a quaint story, especially when you look into the rights women don't have in that country.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> especially when you look into the rights women don't have in that country.


Perhaps you should explain that to the woman who is the President of Liberia.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> Also left me wondering what household chores the sister wives shared in since they all apparently had separate houses,


The houses were only a few feet apart, so they shared caring for the children, cooking, and laundry. The also shared the gardening, and herding the goats. The women in Liberia traditionally own the produce from their gardens, and all of the livestock. And if they want a divorce they kick the husband out, and keep the house. The main drawback to their system in my opinion is the "bride price". The prospective groom must pay the brides father, thirty five dollars cash, or thirty five goats. Seems a little high.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Mish said:


> You mean he had three women he occasionally had sex with. Sounds like a fulfilling relationship for all involved, and he sounds like a person I'd definitely take relationship advice from.
> 
> Also left me wondering what household chores the sister wives shared in since they all apparently had separate houses, but then I realized, again, he probably didn't really have a clue what he was talking about and that's when I kind of stopped caring completely.


Just a little bigoted and judgemental are we?????


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Perhaps you should explain that to the woman who is the President of Liberia.


The current president of Liberia is a man. The former female president of Liberia has gone on record after her tenure to say that women's rights in her country still have a long way to go.



muleskinner2 said:


> The houses were only a few feet apart, so they shared caring for the children, cooking, and laundry. The also shared the gardening, and herding the goats. The women in Liberia traditionally own the produce from their gardens, and all of the livestock. And if they want a divorce they kick the husband out, and keep the house. The main drawback to their system in my opinion is the "bride price". The prospective groom must pay the brides father, thirty five dollars cash, or thirty five goats. Seems a little high.


Hmmm, I remember hearing about land ownership stories differently when my ex-husband was in Liberia for work years ago. Googled to make sure I wasn't having leaky brain memory issues. Doesn't seem that I was. Land is power: How land rights can enfranchise Liberia’s women 

I'm sure buying women is a huge drawback for men. Seems like nothing but a positive to the woman to be bought and paid for. I'm sure that system takes the woman's wishes into consideration and doesn't prioritize those of the men bartering for her, or make it more likely that she is viewed as property and not a human being.



homesteadforty said:


> Just a little bigoted and judgemental are we?????


In what way?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> Sounds like a fulfilling relationship for all involved,


In their culture getting married isn't about a fulfilling relationship. It's about the brides family getting a "bride price" and marrying their daughter into a well to do (livestock and land) family. And the grooms family getting a woman to raise a family. Romance, love, and useless emotion has nothing to do with it. This silly business about a fulfilling relationship, is a first world idea from countries with high divorce rates.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Mish said:


> In what way?


Disparaging cultural norms from a different culture by contrasting them with your beliefs.

In other words... if it ain't what I believe in then it ain't right.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> In their culture getting married isn't about a fulfilling relationship. It's about the brides family getting a "bride price" and marrying their daughter into a well to do (livestock and land) family. And the grooms family getting a woman to raise a family. Romance, love, and useless emotion has nothing to do with it. This silly business about a fulfilling relationship, is a first world idea from countries with high divorce rates.


And my argument is that the system you describe was not put in place by women, or for women, or really taking women into consideration at all beyond the work that they can do, the sex that they can have, and the children that they can bear.

Being a woman myself, I can tell you that around 99.99999999% of women want more than that. Whether or not the "culture" (which has obviously been formed for years based on what the men want, because I can guarantee you that's not what the women would come up with if they were able to start from scratch) defines that or not.

I'm not even talking about romance or love, or other "useless" emotions. I'm talking about being treated as an equal human being, with equal thoughts, feelings, dreams, and ideas. Not only as a commodity to be purchased, a body to engage in sex with or carry children for, or labor to keep everything running. Yes, women can do that, but to be treated as if they are only good for that and not as human companions (unless you want to have fun once a week!) is just...well gross. But, yeah, cute story.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

homesteadforty said:


> Disparaging cultural norms from a different culture by contrasting them with your beliefs.
> 
> In other words... if it ain't what I believe in then it ain't right.


I think you mean disparaging men mistreating women by calling what they do culture as a way to get women to continuously accept being treated as less-than. Yep, guilty as charged.

Belief has nothing to do with it.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> women's rights in her country still have a long way to go.


Considering that Liberia is a third world dung heap I am sure they do. Having lived in a remote village in Liberia, I can tell you that the women are very proud of their family's land, livestock and social status. None of the women I met had been compelled to marry their husband. They were more concerned with how much property his family owned, and how nice of a house he could build them. Pretty much like most women anywhere in the world. When you and everyone you know lives a subsistence lifestyle, and is only two or three meals away from starvation, your priorities may be different than American women raised on soap operas.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> I'm not even talking about romance or love, or other "useless" emotions.


I am not a Vulcan


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> And my argument is that the system you describe was not put in place by women, or for women, or really taking women into consideration at all beyond the work that they can do, the sex that they can have, and the children that they can bear.
> 
> Being a woman myself, I can tell you that around 99.99999999% of women want more than that. Whether or not the "culture" (which has obviously been formed for years based on what the men want, because I can guarantee you that's not what the women would come up with if they were able to start from scratch) defines that or not.
> 
> I'm not even talking about romance or love, or other "useless" emotions. I'm talking about being treated as an equal human being, with equal thoughts, feelings, dreams, and ideas. Not only as a commodity to be purchased, a body to engage in sex with or carry children for, or labor to keep everything running. Yes, women can do that, but to be treated as if they are only good for that and not as human companions (unless you want to have fun once a week!) is just...well gross. But, yeah, cute story.


While living in a remote Liberian village I noticed a few things. The women ran the family and conducted all of the business. The women had the final say in who their daughters did or did not marry. The men owned the land, and it passed down to their sons, or daughters if they didn't have any sons. Their way of life is very different from what Americans tend to believe is normal. But it is normal for them, and they have been doing it that way for thousands of years. What Americans consider to be normal and right, is only a few hundred years old.

And yes you are right, it is a cute story. Thanks.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Considering that Liberia is a third world dung heap I am sure they do. Having lived in a remote village in Liberia, I can tell you that the women are very proud of their family's land, livestock and social status. None of the women I met had been compelled to marry their husband. They were more concerned with how much property his family owned, and how nice of a house he could build them. Pretty much like most women anywhere in the world. When you and everyone you know lives a subsistence lifestyle, and is only two or three meals away from starvation, your priorities may be different than American women raised on soap operas.


I don't know why it seems so difficult to understand what I'm saying. It really shouldn't take being female to understand it, just a little bit of imagination and empathy, put on those shoes for 30 seconds.

Of course women are interested in the material things they can get, because that's all that they can realistically aspire to. There is no hope you can attain these things if you don't marry. If you must marry, and it sounds like you must, get a man that has enough money that you're not going to be scrabbling on bleeding hands and feet in the mud trying to scrape enough food together so that you all don't starve. Bonus if you can marry a man that's not going to beat you, rape you, or kill you or your kids. 

TLDR: The bar being low because the system is set up that way doesn't indicate how women would prefer things to be had they the power to change the system. Since they don't, they make the choices that make their lives easier, because those are the only options in some very limited options.

I'm mostly ignoring the jabs about silly girlish notions and soap operas, but that's really low debate. I'm not a vacuous, silly woman, so we could drop that any time you feel like it.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> land ownership stories


I had not mentioned land ownership.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Mish said:


> I think you mean disparaging men mistreating women by calling what they do culture as a way to get women to continuously accept being treated as less-than. Yep, guilty as charged.
> 
> Belief has nothing to do with it.


Actually... no. I'm quite capable of saying what I mean and meaning what I say, as in:



homesteadforty said:


> Disparaging cultural norms from a different culture by contrasting them with your beliefs.
> 
> In other words... if it ain't what I believe in then it ain't right.


I thought I was pretty clear but I quoted what I said in case you missed it the first time.

In other words you seem to be saying that if you couldn't be happy living their way then they're what... too stupid to know they shouldn't be happy either.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> While living in a remote Liberian village I noticed a few things. The women ran the family and conducted all of the business. The women had the final say in who their daughters did or did not marry. The men owned the land, and it passed down to their sons, or daughters if they didn't have any sons. Their way of life is very different from what Americans tend to believe is normal. But it is normal for them, and they have been doing it that way for thousands of years. What Americans consider to be normal and right, is only a few hundred years old.
> 
> And yes you are right, it is a cute story. Thanks.


That is almost the opposite of the story I heard from my ex, and seems to not be the case from the quick reading I did to make sure I wasn't just imagining all the conversations he had with us about his experience.

I'm not a hick from the sticks yelling 'Murica and insisting everyone must do as we do. While I haven't been to Liberia, I did travel during my time as a U.S. Marine, and during my husband's career as a U.S. Marine, to some third world **** holes. I've seen enough to know that labeling something as culture doesn't make it right (or wrong, honestly), and that the ways that people can rationalize mistreating other human beings are countless, especially if that other human being is just different enough. Men and women seem to fit the bill so well. There are some really horrific places in the world to be a female (got to go myself and be treated as less than human, even by my own military, because their "culture" insisted I must be treated as such), and I'm just not cool with people rationalizing why that's ok. It's not Ok. It doesn't matter how long it's been rationalized and normalized so that it becomes culture, it's not OK. Period. End of story.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> I had not mentioned land ownership.


I would assume you'd own the house in order to or, after, kicking your husband out? Or does he still own it and you can just reside there?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

homesteadforty said:


> Actually... no. I'm quite capable of saying what I mean and meaning what I say, as in:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice try. If you can't understand the posts I've already made, I don't think attempting to explain further is going to help.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> I'm sure buying women is a huge drawback for men.


Bride price isn't about "buying a woman". It is about compensating a family for the loss of their daughter. And ensuring that the groom has the means to support a wife and family. They figure if he can't afford the bride price, he wouldn't be a very good provider. In a country where people are dying like flies from starvation, finding a good provider is high on the list of things to look for in a potential husband.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Bride price isn't about "buying a woman". It is about compensating a family for the loss of their daughter. And ensuring that the groom has the means to support a wife and family. They figure if he can't afford the bride price, he wouldn't be a very good provider. In a country where people are dying like flies from starvation, finding a good provider is high on the list of things to look for in a potential husband.


That doesn't make logical sense. If you really wanted to ensure the groom has the means to support a wife and family, the bride's family would either give her the bride price or let the new bride/groom couple keep the money. Instead, money is being taken out of the pocket of the new family, thus making it more difficult to survive.

Also, compensating a family for the loss of their daughter is the literal definition of buying a woman. ?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I am not a Vulcan


I've been accused before


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Mish said:


> Nice try. If you can't understand the posts I've already made, I don't think attempting to explain further is going to help.


Oh, I understand your prior posts perfectly.

BIGOT
_(noun)_


a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

JUDGEMENTAL
_(adjective)_


having or displaying an excessively critical point of view.
Please explain how neither of those words apply.

BTW... there are a number of members here that have spent time in 3rd world dung heaps (as @muleskinner2 likes to call them)


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> I've been accused before


I think love is important


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> I would assume you'd own the house in order to or, after, kicking your husband out? Or does he still own it and you can just reside there?


In a small village like the one I lived in, nobody owned the land until they built a house on it or tilled it. In the bush if you want to build a house, you clear a piece of land and build the house. If a woman divorced her husband, she would own the house and the garden along side it. She would not own anything that the husband had before they got married. If a man decides he wants to divorce his wife, she keeps the house, and her family keeps the bride price. This helps the women from becoming homeless and destitute. People live in villages, and their farmland, is outside the village. It might have a small house on it, and one of the older sons might stay there if there was a crop to look after. But no body would live there full time, because it is very dangerous. They live in villages as protection from bandits, and predatory animals. 

Their circumstances are very different than anything a westerner would be familiar with. Comparing their culture to what we think of as normal, is so very progressive of you.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> In a small village like the one I lived in, nobody owned the land until they built a house on it or tilled it. In the bush if you want to build a house, you clear a piece of land and build the house. If a woman divorced her husband, she would own the house and the garden along side it. She would not own anything that the husband had before they got married. If a man decides he wants to divorce his wife, she keeps the house, and her family keeps the bride price. This helps the women from becoming homeless and destitute. People live in villages, and their farmland, is outside the village. It might have a small house on it, and one of the older sons might stay there if there was a crop to look after. They live in villages as protection from bandits, and predatory animals.
> 
> Their circumstances are very different than anything a westerner would be familiar with. Comparing their culture to what we think of as normal, is so very progressive of you.


As I've mentioned, I have traveled. I'm not basing my opinions on my culture of origin. I'm basing them on being part of that half of the population who is often on the short end of the stick with culture.

My problem starts when culture is used as a means to keep certain human beings below a bar that other types of humans are above. Being one of the types of humans that is pretty consistently below the bar, perhaps I tend to see it as being as damaging as it is. If I were the type of human that was consistently above the bar, I might not see it as a problem. I have experienced being treated as less than a man, so, perhaps you're right, I do take it kind of personally and can empathize and sympathize with other women who have to live that their whole lives, and not just on a temporary assignment. Yes, I emotionally feel for them and wish it was different, and can see all of the ways that people rationalize that treatment being OK. I'm not OK with it, culture take a flying leap.

I tend to value equality over culture. If that isn't what you consider progressive, I'm not very concerned about that one way or another. Although adhering to culture is usually considered a traditional value, so there's that.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Mish said:


> I don't think attempting to explain further is going to help.


CULTURE
_(noun)_

_*the customs*, arts, *social institutions*, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group._



Mish said:


> As I've mentioned, I have traveled. I'm not basing my opinions on my culture of origin. I'm basing them on being part of that half of the population who is often on the short end of the stick with culture.


How condescending of you to think that because you are a woman you can judge for half the population.



> ...I'm not OK with it, culture take a flying leap.
> 
> I tend to value equality over culture...


But you want to project your cultural values over others cultures. Do you not see the superiority/supremacy issues with that?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Well it looks like Liberia's instance of female genital mutilation has decreased to only 31% of females, looks like they are advancing somewhat. 





__





Female genital mutilation prevalence (%) - Liberia | Data


Female genital mutilation prevalence (%) - Liberia from The World Bank: Data




data.worldbank.org


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> Since they don't, they make the choices that make their lives easier, because those are the only options in some very limited options.


Everybody no matter where you go, makes their choices based on their available options. I never said that the woman's options were pleasant, or what she might choose to do if she were born someplace else. You live with what you have, not what you wish you had.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

no really said:


> Well it looks like Liberia's instance of female genital mutilation has decreased to only 31% of females, looks like they are advancing somewhat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Do you have a point? There is a choice in abortion and from most available information the girls of Liberia have no choice they are children when it's done to them.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

no really said:


> Do you have a point? There is a choice in abortion and from most available information the girls of Liberia have no choice they are children when it's done to them.


Yes I do. The mutilation is done because of religious superstition, and most abortion is done for convenience. Which one kills more babies? Because women in America can't be bothered with using birth control or keeping their legs together.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> That doesn't make logical sense. If you really wanted to ensure the groom has the means to support a wife and family, the bride's family would either give her the bride price or let the new bride/groom couple keep the money. Instead, money is being taken out of the pocket of the new family, thus making it more difficult to survive.
> 
> Also, compensating a family for the loss of their daughter is the literal definition of buying a woman. ?


Ok, have it your way. They have been doing it for thousands of years, and aren't going to change any time soon. Muslim countries stone girls to death for talking to a strange boy in public. It's none of my business what they do, and I don't care. I still think that thirty five goats is too much to pay for a wife.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mish said:


> And my argument is that the system you describe was not put in place by women, or for women, or really taking women into consideration at all beyond the work that they can do, the sex that they can have, and the children that they can bear.
> 
> Being a woman myself, I can tell you that around 99.99999999% of women want more than that. Whether or not the "culture" (which has obviously been formed for years based on what the men want, because I can guarantee you that's not what the women would come up with if they were able to start from scratch) defines that or not.
> 
> I'm not even talking about romance or love, or other "useless" emotions. I'm talking about being treated as an equal human being, with equal thoughts, feelings, dreams, and ideas. Not only as a commodity to be purchased, a body to engage in sex with or carry children for, or labor to keep everything running. Yes, women can do that, but to be treated as if they are only good for that and not as human companions (unless you want to have fun once a week!) is just...well gross. But, yeah, cute story.


Being treated as a equal in marriage, man or woman, is a nice idea, actually a great idea. There are some marriages in the USA that even manage to pretty well practice the idea. I have found it to be somewhat uncommon though here in this enlightened country of ours.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Yes I do. The mutilation is done because of religious superstition, and most abortion is done for convince. Which one kills more babies? Because women in America can't be bothered with using birth control or keeping their legs together.


How did this become a comparison between the two vastly different occurrences?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> The current president of Liberia is a man


I am sorry, why don't you jump on a plane and go run for president? I am sure they would be happy to have you tell them what they should be doing.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

no really said:


> How did this become a comparison between the two vastly different occurrences?


Why did you bring up genital mutilation?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Why did you bring up genital mutilation?


Because it's part of the culture.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> When I worked in Liberia, I had an old man working for me as a guide. He was in his 70's and had three wives. He explained to me his thoughts on marriage. First, he said that men and women have nothing in common, and trying to live in the same house was just stupid. Second, he said that a man should marry sisters, as they came of age. They already knew each other and already had a pecking order. They would share in the household chores, and could help each other when needed.
> 
> Third, the most important thing was whenever you married a woman you should build her, her own house. He had three wives, all sisters, and each one had her own house. The last bit of advise he gave me was, only visit a woman one day a week. And never spend the night.


I haven't been everywhere but I have been lots of places. No where have I found 3 sisters that I could be married to at the same time. Plus,I was raised with three sisters and they are all so very much different.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> I am sorry, why don't you jump on a plane and go run for president? I am sure they would be happy to have you tell them what they should be doing.


So in order to have an opinion about something, one should have to be ready to run for president? Oh, boy, you have a lot of fundraising to do.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

mreynolds said:


> I haven't been everywhere but I have been lots of places. No where have I found 3 sisters that I could be married to at the same time. Plus,I was raised with three sisters and they are all so very much different.


Have you ever been to West Africa? In Liberia it is quite common.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mish said:


> So in order to have an opinion about something, one should have to be ready to run for president? Oh, boy, you have a lot of fundraising to do.


No need to raise money. I have no interest in running for president, changing peoples minds, or interfering with their culture.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Mish said:


> I'm not a hick from the sticks yelling 'Murica and insisting everyone must do as we do.


Well I can say one thing... it appears you're an equal opportunity bigot (I won't mention the stereotyping and prejudice).

I am "a hick from the sticks", though I actually prefer hillbilly. We don't yell " 'Murica"... it's actually amurca (short a and no i). And we especially don't insist everyone do as we do... we're very much leave us to do our thing and we leave you to do yours.



> There are some really horrific places in the world to be a female (got to go myself and be treated as less than human, even by my own military, because their "culture" insisted I must be treated as such)


Yep.. and there are some really horrific places in the world just to be human... regardless of your gender.



> and I'm just not cool with people rationalizing why that's ok. It's not Ok. It doesn't matter how long it's been rationalized and normalized so that it becomes culture, it's not OK. Period. End of story.


Sanctimonious indignation does nothing to further your argument.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> No where have I found 3 sisters that I could be married to at the same time.


That's a pretty messed up thing to go looking for. But, hey...best of luck to you.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

kinderfeld said:


> That's a pretty messed up thing to go looking for. But, hey...best of luck to you.


I knew this set of twins once.............. maybe that's a story for a different forum


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

homesteadforty said:


> I knew this set of twins once.............. maybe that's a story for a different forum


Probably wouldn't even fly in "Dear Penthouse".


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

kinderfeld said:


> That's a pretty messed up thing to go looking for. But, hey...best of luck to you.


Not looking.


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