# Pope Francis



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Is right on the environment, but wrong on abortion, homosexuality and marriage. 

So he is either one for four, or three for four, depending on our perspective. 

Does anyone give him four for four?


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

The man is a Luciferian, so I give him a 0.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Why can Christians call other Christians nasty names (that are all but certainly not true) but a non religious person is "Christian bashing" if they say _anything_ less than flattering?


----------



## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why can Christians call other Christians nasty names (that are all but certainly not true) but a non religious person is "Christian bashing" if they say anything less than flattering?


Because how else can they have a 'War on Christmas" or anything like that if they don't have the boogey-man to point to and cry and wail on????

Far as the Pope, if he says something isn't he the supposed 'voice of G-d' here on earth for Catholics? So surely, they have him being 'infallible' right?

Outside of when he was elected, I don't follow him and wouldn't know where he stood on any specific issue, other than he clearly believes that Catholics are the better of the Christian Sects...... or does he?


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I keep hearing he is a Marxist.


----------



## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Woolieface said:


> The man is a Luciferian, so I give him a 0.


Is there something bad about people who are Luciferians?


----------



## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Is right on the environment, but wrong on abortion, homosexuality and marriage.
> 
> So he is either one for four, or three for four, depending on our perspective.
> 
> Does anyone give him four for four?


And some would say exactly the opposite. 

I don't trust him on environmental issues but I happen to agree with a lot of what he stands for in regards to abortion, homosexuality and marriage.

Glad we're all still entitled to our own opinions.

P.S. I'm not Catholic.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

My immediate family and in-laws are Catholic. I'm not. My mother in law once referred to me as a "heathen" because I wouldn't convert so I've used that as my "religion" ever since. It works as well as any other. 

Overall, I like Pope Francis.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

From what little I've read about his views I have to wonder what Bible he's getting his teachings of Christ from. 

I heard him the other day say something like you can't have faith if you don't give away your money.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

watcher said:


> From what little I've read about his views I have to wonder what Bible he's getting his teachings of Christ from.
> 
> I heard him the other day say something like you can't have faith if you don't give away your money.


That *is* in the Bible, isn't it? "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why can Christians call other Christians nasty names (that are all but certainly not true) but a non religious person is "Christian bashing" if they say _anything_ less than flattering?


Christian is as Christian does. Some would argue that Luciferianism is a valid religious choice. You might offend them by calling it a "nasty name".


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Fennick said:


> Is there something bad about people who are Luciferians?


Yeah.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

So I am clear, I give him 3 out of 4. He is wrong on man's effect on climate change. Hearing his rhetoric, it appears he has the same motivation as other power structures looking to control economies and individuals.


(CNN)Pope Francis warned Thursday that a broad sweep of human activities -- *from a blind worship of technology to an addiction to fossil fuels and mindless consumerism *-- has brought the planet to the "breaking point."

"Doomsday predictions," the Pope said in a sharply worded manifesto, "can no longer be met with irony or disdain."

Citing scientific consensus that we are witnessing a "disturbing warming" of the Earth, Francis embraced the view that humans are largely to blame for a dramatic change in the climate.

Nothing short of a *"bold cultural revolution"* can halt humanity's spiral into self-destruction, the Pope warned.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/world/pope-francis-climate-technology-encyclical/


Who do you think he is talking to? He is talking to America, and other industrialized economies "demanding" we revert back to pre-industrial times. How else can you explain it?

As been said a million times, we could drive our carbon emissions to zero and still have no effect in reversing climate change.


----------



## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

If Francis thinks the pollution in the US is a big deal, he should spend a little time in places like China and India. Yikes!!


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why can Christians call other Christians nasty names (that are all but certainly not true) but a non religious person is "Christian bashing" if they say _anything_ less than flattering?


 Because we can. Who else would be better to call out those who misinterpret God's word.



Irish Pixie said:


> That *is* in the Bible, isn't it? "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."


 And oh yeah, this one. I would mention its taken out of context, but you knew that already.
And since you don't believe anyway, Why do you care?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Marshloft said:


> Because we can. Who else would be better to call out those who misinterpret God's word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I may be just a silly heathen but hypocrisy bothers me.

Christians shouldn't bad mouth anyone, should they? Isn't that one of the rules?


----------



## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Marshloft said:


> Because we can. Who else would be better to call out those who misinterpret God's word.


how do you know they are misinterpreting God's word? Just because you don't see it that way doesn't make it wrong.


----------



## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I may be just a silly heathen, but hypocrisy bothers me.
> 
> Christians shouldn't bad mouth anyone, should they? Isn't that one of the rules?


only when it suits them :drum:


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> I may be just a silly heathen but hypocrisy bothers me.
> 
> Christians shouldn't bad mouth anyone, should they? Isn't that one of the rules?


Just curious, are you being serious in your heathen comment? Asking because my religion Asatru, classified heathen.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

watcher said:


> From what little I've read about his views I have to wonder what Bible he's getting his teachings of Christ from.
> 
> I heard him the other day say something like you can't have faith if you don't give away your money.


Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 
1 Timothy 6:6-10 

Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. 



Matthew 6:19-21 & 24

&#8220;Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 
24 &#8220;No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


Luke 6:24
&#8220;But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. 



James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. ...


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> Just curious, are you being serious in your heathen comment? Asking because my religion Asatru, classified heathen.


Not really. It annoyed my mother in law. I do identify with Celtic Paganism more than any other religion.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I know Christians and non-Christians who think he is 4 for 4. I liked what he had to say about technology.

"It has become countercultural to chose a lifestyle whose goals are even partly independent of technology."
"Nobody is suggesting a return to the Stone Age, but we do need to slow down and look at reality in a different way." 
"When media and the digital world become omnipresent, their influence can stop people from learning how to live wisely, to think deeply and to love generously. In this context, the great sages of the past run the risk of going unheard amid the noise and distractions of an information overload."


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

susieneddy said:


> how do you know they are misinterpreting God's word? Just because you don't see it that way doesn't make it wrong.


Well, the Bible says "I AM the way,, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me (Jesus)"

The Pope says: Muslims, Atheists, Martians (no, that one isn't a joke)... it's all good. God doesn't mind.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> Well, the Bible says "I AM the way,, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me (Jesus)"
> 
> The Pope says: Muslims, Atheists, Martians (no, that one isn't a joke)... it's all good. God doesn't mind.


And that is the way that he interprets the Bible verse, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." It doesn't matter to his God if people are Muslim, Atheist, or Martians they are welcome. 

What is wrong with that?


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> And that is the way that he interprets the Bible verse, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." It doesn't matter to his God if people are Muslim, Atheist, or Martians they are welcome.
> 
> What is wrong with that?


What do you mean that is the way he interprets it? The statement is, by its nature, exclusive. Jesus said no man comes to the Father but through Him. That is by His sacrifice and acceptance of His message. There's no other way to take it. It was stated by Him for the precise reason of ending this very argument right here. There is no other way to God. If you don't like that, there's a million other religions to choose from.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> What do you mean that is the way he interprets it? The statement is, by its nature, exclusive. Jesus said no man comes to the Father but through Him. That is by His sacrifice and acceptance of His message. There's no other way to take it. It was stated by Him for the precise reason of ending this very argument right here. There is no other way to God. If you don't like that, there's a million other religions to choose from.


Simply based on the fact that he heads the Roman Catholic Church, and that they are Christian, I think he realizes that the way to God is through Christ. 

Pope Francis is saying that you don't have to be "whatever" religion, or even have a religion or be human, to go through Christ to God. God accepts everyone.

I think that's a great thing, and I identify Pagan.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> That *is* in the Bible, isn't it? "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."


No, not at all. If it you read it, it doesn't say a rich man can not get into the kingdom. I can't find anywhere Christ told people they must be poor to get in. And I sure can't find anywhere He said if you didn't give your stuff away you can't get in.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I may be just a silly heathen but hypocrisy bothers me.
> 
> Christians shouldn't bad mouth anyone, should they? Isn't that one of the rules?


Nope. AAMOF, we are specifically told we are to call out anyone claiming the name of Christ if they are not teaching Christ.

If I didn't have to go pick up the wife I'd give you verses.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

watcher said:


> Nope. AAMOF, we are specifically told we are to call out anyone claiming the name of Christ if they are not teaching Christ.
> 
> If I didn't have to go pick up the wife I'd give you verses.


That's quite all right, please don't. I won't read them and it will just be a waste of your time.


----------



## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Woolieface said:


> Well, the Bible says "I AM the way,, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me (Jesus)"
> 
> The Pope says: Muslims, Atheists, Martians (no, that one isn't a joke)... it's all good. God doesn't mind.



He might as well have thrown Jews in there then. So finally we may be able to convince people that that 'mythical;' Judeo-Christian stuff is bunk huh?


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Simply based on the fact that he heads the Roman Catholic Church, and that they are Christian, I think he realizes that the way to God is through Christ.
> 
> Pope Francis is saying that you don't have to be "whatever" religion, or even have a religion or be human, to go through Christ to God. God accepts everyone.
> 
> I think that's a great thing, and I identify Pagan.


If he believed that the way was Christ, he could not then say that there are multiple alteratives that lead to God. They are directly contradictory statements.

If I do not adhere to the Koran, do not honor Muhammed and do not follow Islamic law, can I go ahead and call myself a Muslim, anyway? That's a bizarre idea, but that's nonsensical standard people somehow still apply to Christianity. You can believe in some vague form or "be good", ignore the glaring inconsistancies and still call youself Christian. It really doesn't matter what he's the head of in this Earth... the central tenant of Christ's ministry was that He was The Exclusive Way. 

It's a great thing, in your opinion, because He is reflecting an ideology that a Pagan can relate to....however, it isn't one that a Christian can relate to.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> If he believed that the way was Christ, he could not then say that there are multiple alteratives that lead to God. They are directly contradictory statements.
> 
> If I do not adhere to the Koran, do not honor Muhammed and do not follow Islamic law, can I go ahead and call myself a Muslim, anyway? That's a bizarre idea, but that's nonsensical standard people somehow still apply to Christianity. You can believe in some vague form or "be good", ignore the glaring inconsistancies and still call youself Christian. It really doesn't matter what he's the head of in this Earth... the central tenant of Christ's ministry was that He was The Exclusive Way.
> 
> It's a great thing, in your opinion, because He is reflecting an ideology that a Pagan can relate to....however, it isn't one that a Christian can relate to.


Again, Pope Francis is NOT saying there is another way to God except through Christ. He IS saying that you don't have to be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, whatever in order to do it. Atheists can too. God accepts all people, and Martians as well apparently.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Again, Pope Francis is NOT saying there is another way to God except through Christ. He IS saying that you don't have to be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, whatever in order to do it. Atheists can too. God accepts all people, and Martians as well apparently.


If Martians exist he must have created them, too. Right?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Again, Pope Francis is NOT saying there is another way to God except through Christ. He IS saying that you don't have to be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, whatever in order to do it. Atheists can too. God accepts all people *through Christ*, and Martians as well apparently.


Do you object to my edit?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Do you object to my edit?


You changed my words to your own and didn't attribute them. Yes, I object. 

I already stated that God accepts everyone through Christ, I have no idea why you thought it needed to be said again. 

"Originally Posted by Irish Pixie 
Again, Pope Francis is NOT saying there is another way to God except *through Christ*. He IS saying that you don't have to be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, whatever in order to do it. Atheists can too. God accepts all people, and Martians as well apparently."


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You changed my words to your own and didn't attribute them. Yes, I object.
> 
> I already stated that God accepts everyone through Christ, I have no idea why you thought it needed to be said again.
> 
> ...


Not sure how I could have been more clear on my edit. My sense is you object to me, especially since I essentially said the same thing you did. I did not see or did not recall your original statement.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Not sure how I could have been more clear on my edit. My sense is you object to me, especially since I essentially said the same thing you did. I did not see or did not recall your original statement.


My objection is to you changing my statement. You saw the statement in question because you quoted it. When you added "through Christ" to my quote "God accepts all people" you changed what I actually said to something you wanted it to say. I think that's wrong. 

I have nothing against you personally if that's what you are suggesting. This is just a message board. 

"Originally Posted by Irish Pixie 
Again, Pope Francis is NOT saying there is another way to God except through Christ. He IS saying that you don't have to be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, whatever in order to do it. Atheists can too. God accepts all people, and Martians as well apparently."


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Simply based on the fact that he heads the Roman Catholic Church, and that they are Christian, I think he realizes that the way to God is through Christ.
> 
> Pope Francis is saying that you don't have to be "whatever" religion, or even have a religion or be human, to go through Christ to God. God accepts everyone.
> 
> I think that's a great thing, and I identify Pagan.


And you accept Christ as your Savior, that He shed His blood for the redemption of your sins? Do you follow the teachings of Christ?

My point here is that Muslims, for example, do not accept the divinity of Christ or that Christ is greater than Muhammad. Is the Pope declaring that this is acceptable to God?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Txsteader said:


> And you accept Christ as your Savior, that He shed His blood for the redemption of your sins? Do you follow the teachings of Christ?
> 
> My point here is that Muslims, for example, do not accept the divinity of Christ or that Christ is greater than Muhammad. Is the Pope declaring that this is acceptable to God?


I don't know the mind of Pope Francis but that's how I interpret his words.


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Newsflash! Pope Francis is a man, and thus, fallible. 

Hence, we are to study the Word and rely on the Holy Spirit for the true and pure meaning of the scripture,s rather than *blindly* follow anyone who stands behind a pulpit.

Love, Txsteader


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Txsteader said:


> Newsflash! Pope Francis is a man, and thus, fallible.
> 
> Hence, we are to study the Word and rely on the Holy Spirit for the meaning of the scriptures rather than blindly follow anyone who stands behind a pulpit.
> 
> Love, Txsteader


A bit snarky, but OK. I personally don't care about the word, the holy spirit, scriptures, etc. and definitely don't follow anyone (blindly or not) that stand behind a pulpit, but I don't like when anyone is bashed for their opinion, religious or otherwise.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Again, Pope Francis is NOT saying there is another way to God except through Christ. He IS saying that you don't have to be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, whatever in order to do it. Atheists can too. God accepts all people, and Martians as well apparently.


What makes you think that's what he's saying? From his own words, that's not at all the message he seems to be spreading. Christianity has always been about reaching out to the lost from every walk of life, but the point is that the lost be found. A Muslim can certainly come to Christ and forsake Islam but when the Pope says things like this.....
*
"...Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: âYou ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who donât believe and who donât seek the faith. I start by saying â and this is the fundamental thing â that Godâs mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

âSin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.â ...
*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html 

He's talking about getting good with God by "doing good". Coming to Christ is apparently optional.


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> A bit snarky, but OK. I personally don't care about the word, the holy spirit, scriptures, etc. and definitely don't follow anyone (blindly or not) that stand behind a pulpit, but I don't like when anyone is bashed for their opinion, religious or otherwise.


The post wasn't directed specifically at you (I didn't quote your post) and it wasn't intended to be snarky but you're free to interpret it any way you wish.

But......I fail to understand how you claim to *not* know the mind of the Pope when you just interpreted/informed us what the Pope was/was not saying, inferring that your interpretation of the Pope's words are somehow correct and those who contradict are wrong.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Txsteader said:


> The post wasn't directed specifically at you (I didn't quote your post) and it wasn't intended to be snarky but you're free to interpret it any way you wish.
> 
> But......I fail to understand how you claim to *not* know the mind of the Pope when you just interpreted/informed us what the Pope was/was not saying, inferring that your interpretation of the Pope's words are somehow correct and those who contradict are wrong.


I've sat through enough Masses in almost 33 years (I've been married to a Catholic that long) to know that the Catholic Church (and all it's members) does indeed believe that the path to God is through Jesus Christ. 

I'm not privy to the Pope's mind but I can use my knowledge of the Catholic Church to interpret (at least in my opinion) what his statement meant.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> Newsflash! Pope Francis is a man, and thus, fallible.


 Yes, just as every author of every scripture ever written. Human. Fallible.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> My objection is to you changing my statement. You saw the statement in question because you quoted it. When you added "through Christ" to my quote "God accepts all people" you changed what I actually said to something you wanted it to say. I think that's wrong.
> 
> I have nothing against you personally if that's what you are suggesting. This is just a message board.
> 
> ...


I added to your statement because I was unclear on your message. I asked if you objected to see if I changed your meaning. 

You quoted your own message saying excatly what I added and you still objected. You confuse me.


----------



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

I'll toss a Molotov cocktail, here is an old book that will take some time to read. The first half of the book is best. It is about the origin of the Catholic church, and its daughters. http://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I added to your statement because I was unclear on your message. I asked if you objected to see if I changed your meaning.
> 
> You quoted your own message saying excatly what I added and you still objected. You confuse me.


You asked if I objected to you adding "through Christ" to my quote. I told you I did. 

What are you confused about?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You asked if I objected to you adding "through Christ" to my quote. I told you I did.
> 
> What are you confused about?


It confuses me that my add to your statement matched an earlier statement of yours and you objected to that. Especially considering I was clear about my add, which I only did to better understand your statement.


----------



## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> My point here is that *Jews*, for example, do not accept the divinity of Christ or that Christ is greater than a *regular man*. Is the Pope declaring that this is acceptable to *G-d*?



There, helped give another example of your statement. My additions/revisions are in bold. Hopefully you don't object....


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

greg273 said:


> Yes, just as every author of every scripture ever written. Human. Fallible.


That is to imply that God is fallible, somehow unable to ensure that His word remain true and pure.

But to that end, when Jesus told His disciples that He had to leave them (knowing He was about to be crucified), they panicked and asked who would teach them if He was gone.......to which He replied that they had no need that any *man* teach them, but that the Holy Spirit would guide them to all understanding.

And so it is.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> That is to imply that God is fallible, somehow unable to ensure that His word remain true and pure.
> 
> But to that end, when Jesus told His disciples that He had to leave them (knowing He was about to be crucified), they panicked and asked who would teach them if He was gone.......to which He replied that they had no need that any *man* teach them, but that the Holy Spirit would guide them to all understanding.
> 
> And so it is.


 Um, no, never said God was 'fallible', only that humans are. You trust that the words of Moses, Job, Paul, Matthew, John, etc are the verbatim words of the Creator of the Universe, then good for you. You have more in common with the Muslims than you realize, they think the same thing about thier holy book. 
Perhaps instead of looking to ancient scriptures and regarding them as the verbatim word of God, we should do as Jesus instructed and let the 'Holy Spirit' be our guide.


----------



## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> That is to imply that God is fallible, somehow unable to ensure that His word remain true and pure.


Well, all one has to do is exercise their 'Google" fingers to find contradictions within the religious texts, any of them. In this case, there are a multitude to choose from, so how does one reconcile them if infallibility is indeed the treasure desired?


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

greg273 said:


> Which is exactly what I said.


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

greg273 said:


> If that's how you choose to do it, you're free to do so. I choose to do it differently.
> 
> Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

greg273 said:


> Um, no, never said God was 'fallible', only that humans are. You trust that the words of Moses, Job, Paul, Matthew, John, etc are the verbatim words of the Creator of the Universe, then good for you. You have more in common with the Muslims than you realize, they think the same thing about thier holy book.
> Perhaps instead of looking to ancient scriptures and regarding them as the verbatim word of God, we should do as Jesus instructed and let the 'Holy Spirit' be our guide.


How do you know what Jesus said at all if you're willing to think that scripture is entirely the work of fallible men? Going by that theory, we may assume that we don't know a single thing about Him or anything He said that's reliable. Perhaps the Gospel writers made up that part you like.


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Hmmm

Climate change. 

Pope Francis or Fox News. Conservative Catholics, must be engaging in some serious _gnashing of teeth_ on this one. 

http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/16/fox-news-host-attacks-pope-francis-for-addressi/204022


----------



## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

"Is the pope Catholic?" is no longer just a rhetorical question nowadays.


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Sumatra said:


> "Is the pope Catholic?" is no longer just a rhetorical question nowadays.



Maybe it's like the other thread, about "losing confidence" in the SC, Government, Banks, etc.

Are they a "problem", because they tell us, what we don't want to hear?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> What makes you think that's what he's saying? From his own words, that's not at all the message he seems to be spreading. Christianity has always been about reaching out to the lost from every walk of life, but the point is that the lost be found. A Muslim can certainly come to Christ and forsake Islam but when the Pope says things like this.....
> *
> "...Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: âYou ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who donât believe and who donât seek the faith. I start by saying â and this is the fundamental thing â that Godâs mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.
> 
> ...


You might want to take a quick chug through Romans chapter 2 it should sort out for you where Pope Francis is coming from here.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

BlackFeather said:


> I'll toss a Molotov cocktail, here is an old book that will take some time to read. The first half of the book is best. It is about the origin of the Catholic church, and its daughters. http://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf



Well I have to say you and Woolieface are consistent when it comes to your conspiracy theories. You even like the religious ones. :TFH:


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> Well I have to say you and Woolieface are consistent when it comes to your conspiracy theories. You even like the religious ones. :TFH:



If you've both read the bible and taken a good look at the Vatican, there's not much to theorize about.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> If you've both read the bible and taken a good look at the Vatican, there's not much to theorize about.


I have, and concluded that most (all?) organized religion is a cult. Of course, that's just my opinion. 

And again, I don't understand why Christians can take potshots at other Christians but have a non Christian/non religious person do it and they're "Christian bashing" and trying to remove all religion in America.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have, and concluded that most (all?) organized religion is a cult. Of course, that's just my opinion.
> 
> And again, I don't understand why Christians can take potshots at other Christians but have a non Christian/non religious person do it and they're "Christian bashing" and trying to remove all religion in America.


I never heard an atheist telling another atheist they are not being a proper atheist.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why can Christians call other Christians nasty names (that are all but certainly not true) but a non religious person is "Christian bashing" if they say _anything_ less than flattering?


Double standards seem to be the norm with many


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Woolieface said:


> *Christian is as Christian does.*
> 
> Some would argue that Luciferianism is a valid religious choice. You might offend them by calling it a "nasty name".


I'm not sure you want to use that argument


----------



## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

food for thought:

White Jesus modeled on Cesare Borgia?

The theory is that people were generally not too enthusiastic about the Catholic Churchâs regular massacres of Jews and Muslims, because the people they were killing looked like Jesus. Pope Alexander VI then ordered the destruction of all art depicting a Semitic Jesus and commissioned a number of paintings depicting a Caucasian Jesus. His son, Cardinal Cesare Borgia, was the model for these paintings. Thus, the nastiest of all the Borgias, became the iconic Caucasian Jesus so loved by Christians today. 

If anyone wants to see what the Catholic Church was like go watch the Netflix show Borgia. This show was based on historical fact.


----------



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> Well I have to say you and Woolieface are consistent when it comes to your conspiracy theories. You even like the religious ones. :TFH:


Those who look into conspiracy theories are said to be more sane. http://thespiritscience.net/2014/11...onspiracy-theorists-are-the-most-sane-of-all/
The reason is we don't accept what we are told by those in charge but want to examine the possibilities. The desire to find truth is more important than being comfortable for those of us who look into these things. Not that we always find truth, but it is the pursuit of it that is important. Some people would rather have comfort than truth, they are the type that believe everything they are told by government, churches, schools or the media. By the way if you read the book I listed, it is very interesting. It is a very scholarly work.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

BlackFeather said:


> Those who look into conspiracy theories are said to be more sane. http://thespiritscience.net/2014/11...onspiracy-theorists-are-the-most-sane-of-all/
> The reason is we don't accept what we are told by those in charge but want to examine the possibilities. The desire to find truth is more important than being comfortable for those of us who look into these things. Not that we always find truth, but it is the pursuit of it that is important. Some people would rather have comfort than truth, they are the type that believe everything they are told by government, churches, schools or the media. By the way if you read the book I listed, it is very interesting. It is a very scholarly work.


From the actual Pub Med page from the study, one of the researchers felt compelled to comment on the way his study has been misconstrued:



> Michael Wood2014 Nov 30 07:45 a.m.edited 3 of 3 people found this helpful
> As the first author of this study, I'd like to address a misleading headline that's been making the rounds lately: the idea that this study says that people who believe 9/11 conspiracy theories are better-adjusted than those who do not. *This grossly misinterprets our results: this study says nothing about mental health, and its results do not justify any conclusions about one group of people being more or less "sane" than another.*
> The main basis for this misinterpretation appears to be the observed difference in hostility between conspiracist (pro-conspiracy-theory) and conventionalist (anti-conspiracy-theory) comments. On average, conventionalist comments tended to be somewhat more hostile. In the paper, we interpret this difference as the product of a fairly specific social situation in which the two rival opinion-based groups use different strategies of social influence according to their relative popularity, rather than as an inherent psychological difference. In fact, previous research by Marina Abalakina-Paap and colleagues has shown that dispositional hostility is positively, not negatively, correlated with beliefs in conspiracy theories - in other words, people who believe more conspiracy theories tend to be _more_ hostile. However, that finding doesn't necessarily justify the conclusion that conventionalists are better-adjusted than conspiracists. Either of these conclusions relies on the unstated premise that hostility is never good or justified, and that less hostility is always better. This is at least an arguable assumption, and there's certainly no evidence for it here.
> *In general, I would urge anyone who found this paper via the "sanity" article to please think critically about headlines in the future. It is tempting to believe without question self-serving headlines that validate your prejudices and beliefs, but that's precisely when critical thinking is most important.*


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

I have to say I wish more researchers would feel compelled to address articles that make hash out of their studies.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have, and concluded that most (all?) organized religion is a cult. Of course, that's just my opinion.
> 
> And again, I don't understand why Christians can take potshots at other Christians but have a non Christian/non religious person do it and they're "Christian bashing" and trying to remove all religion in America.


There's nothing, necessarily "organized" about Christianity. There are organized churches, sects and denominations, which are all of man's influence upon the faith, but the only thing necessary to Christianity is God's message.

There was no "potshot"... I have a problem with his message being affiliated with Christianity because it is the antithesis of the Gospel message and I, in no way believe that he considers himself Christian no matter what he may be standing as the Grand Pooba of.


----------



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have, and concluded that most (all?) organized religion is a cult. Of course, that's just my opinion.


You may be surprised but I probably agree with you. To me a cult is anyone who follows a man not God. A study of how the Bible came about has lead me to believe that God intended for us to have this instruction book. I can't tell you how many times I have heard it said..."my minister said..." or "the reverend said" or "The Pope said," or announcing some other man in authority is their basis for their belief. These people don't say "the Bible said." My rule for what is a cult, is if you follow a man your being cultist, If you follow the Bible which is God's words for man then your not. Some will go to church and follow the minister others go to the same church and follow what they understand of the Bible, so being in a cult is really a personal mental attitude. It is true some religions lend more to being a cult then others. I also recognize that some reject the Bible as the word of God, well that is up to them, I am satisfied that I have proven it to be God's instruction book, others can decide for themselves.


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have, and concluded that most (all?) organized religion is a cult. Of course, that's just my opinion.
> 
> And again, I don't understand why Christians can take potshots at other Christians but have a non Christian/non religious person do it and they're "Christian bashing" and trying to remove all religion in America.


Because Christians are allowed to judge each other, but only in accordance to the scriptures rather than their own personal opinions, ideas or feelings.

Example: if a pastor declared that murder was not a sin, clearly he would be teaching a false doctrine and chastised or removed from his position, as he would obviously be leading people astray.

Likewise, if the pastor is having an affair with a parishioner, should he not be judged? 

How is it that people who claim to have read the scriptures yet they don't know these things?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I see, but non-Christians are just supposed to ignore the hypocrisy? Ignore the preaching and prophesying, ignore the attempts to put Christian tenet into the laws of this country? 

The Pope/Catholic bashing makes me laugh and shake my head. One of the original churches based on the teachings of Christ but it's not Christian? I don't believe the dogma but for one Christian religion to blatantly say that another Christian religion isn't based on Christianity is just bizarre. 

And many wonder why people will have nothing to do with religion...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I see, but non-Christians are just supposed to ignore the hypocrisy? Ignore the preaching and prophesying, ignore the attempts to put Christian tenet into the laws of this country?
> 
> The Pope/Catholic bashing makes me laugh and shake my head. One of the original churches based on the teachings of Christ but it's not Christian? I don't believe the dogma but for one Christian religion to blatantly say that another Christian religion isn't based on Christianity is just bizarre.
> 
> And many wonder why people will have nothing to do with religion...


Maybe you should consider that many Christian have little to do with "religion", but more to do with God.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I see, but non-Christians are just supposed to ignore the hypocrisy? Ignore the preaching and prophesying, ignore the attempts to put Christian tenet into the laws of this country?
> 
> The Pope/Catholic bashing makes me laugh and shake my head. One of the original churches based on the teachings of Christ but it's not Christian? I don't believe the dogma but for one Christian religion to blatantly say that another Christian religion isn't based on Christianity is just bizarre.
> 
> And many wonder why people will have nothing to do with religion...


You apparently have a problem with the Catholic church and organized religion, yourself, so I'm not sure why you have such an problem with anyone else having reservations about those things. A Christian Must agree with organized religion in your opinion, or what?

I'm still trying to figure out how pointing out that the Pope does not say things that represent what I believe is "bashing". Weird.......

But it's not bashing when you say the Catholic church doesn't represent what you believe?


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Woolieface said:


> You apparently have a problem with the Catholic church and organized religion, yourself, so I'm not sure why you have such an problem with anyone else having reservations about those things. A Christian Must agree with organized religion in your opinion, or what?
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out how pointing out that the Pope does not say things that represent what I believe is "bashing". Weird.......
> 
> But it's not bashing when you say the Catholic church doesn't represent what you believe?


Oh ya anyone that is on that side of believing or not believing will think and say something like that.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Maybe you should consider that many Christian have little to do with "religion", but more to do with God.


 That is probably true for most people. Even those Muslims you love to hate. Everyone has a personal relationship with the divine, God doesn't speak just one language.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

greg273 said:


> That is probably true for most people. Even those Muslims you love to hate. Everyone has a personal relationship with the divine, God doesn't speak just one language.


Yeah, that's another thing. Christians don't love to hate anyone. That's the thing the world doesn't get.... the Christian label does not apply to everything that wears it. You are able to comprehend that when it applies to religions like Islam...as I mentioned before, I couldn't call myself Muslim and deny Muhammad. 

The label of Christian gets picked up and thrown around and worn by all kinds...but our manual does not tell us that it's ok to hate people, it doesn't tell it's ok to replace Jesus with whomever we like, it doesn't tell us we can find our own way to God and it doesn't tell us that our faith must be draped in dogmatic adornment and presided over by a priest.

Loving others does not come down to loving everything they believe and do.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> Yeah, that's another thing. Christians don't love to hate anyone. That's the thing the world doesn't get.... the Christian label does not apply to everything that wears it. You are able to comprehend that when it applies to religions like Islam...as I mentioned before, I couldn't call myself Muslim and deny Muhammad.
> 
> The label of Christian gets picked up and thrown around and worn by all kinds...but our manual does not tell us that it's ok to hate people, it doesn't tell it's ok to replace Jesus with whomever we like, it doesn't tell us we can find our own way to God and it doesn't tell us that our faith must be draped in dogmatic adornment and presided over by a priest.
> 
> Loving others does not come down to loving everything they believe and do.


So, the people on HT that hate Muslims and defile their religion aren't really Christian?


----------



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Woolieface said:


> But it's not bashing when you say the Catholic church doesn't represent what you believe?


What's the point of religion, if the faithful, just believe whatever they want?

Just curious, since it is(was) supposed to be about faith.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> So, the people on HT that hate Muslims and defile their religion aren't really Christian?


Hating is not Christian...the promotion of hate is not Christian. I'm following my own advice here...I'm judging an action, not souls. Every person sins, every Christian has done things that are unchristian. I don't know of any specific person to call out even if I wanted to, but I can assure you that anyone who hates another person is not doing so with the blessing of our Lord.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

greg273 said:


> That is probably true for most people. Even those Muslims you love to hate. Everyone has a personal relationship with the divine, God doesn't speak just one language.


Where did I say I hated Muslims?

What I do hate is people putting words in my mouth.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So, the people on HT that hate Muslims and defile their religion aren't really Christian?


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

plowjockey said:


> What's the point of religion, if the faithful, just believe whatever they want?
> 
> Just curious, since it is(was) supposed to be about faith.


The hundreds or thousands of denominations of organized religion are just what you're describing... a license to believe any contrary doctrine they want, and beyond that, giving it a sense of pseudo-legitimacy by placing it under the authority of that group's leadership. 

The Bible is the message...and that's all. Any individual can cave to their own biases in reading it and do so to their own detriment...but organized denominations lead an entire congregation astray when the leadership is in error. 

We're each, individually responsible for what we do with the message He's given us. We can seek God in it... or we can seek our own interests.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> Hating is not Christian...the promotion of hate is not Christian. I'm following my own advice here...I'm judging an action, not souls. Every person sins, every Christian has done things that are unchristian. I don't know of any specific person to call out even if I wanted to, but I can assure you that anyone who hates another person is not doing so with the blessing of our Lord.


That's what I thought too- hating is not Christian. Thank you.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I like this one better :thumb:


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Where did I say I hated Muslims?
> 
> What I do hate is people putting words in my mouth.


 Didn't you vote for 'we're at war with Islam'??


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's what I thought too- hating is not Christian. Thank you.


You're quite welcome.


----------



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

greg273 said:


> Didn't you vote for 'we're at war with Islam'??


You can hate what people do with out hating the people themselves. You can war against evil, yet hoping the evil doer will change his ways. It is possible to kill in defense of self or others with out hating the person you are forced to kill. I have had to shoot a vicious dog, I dislike shooting animals but it had to be done. I didn't hate the dog, I hated its actions and was sorry it turned bad.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

greg273 said:


> Didn't you vote for 'we're at war with Islam'??


Who is "Islam"? I don't know that guy.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

He did not say the way to God is not through Christ. You donât know when or how a person evolves after death. Perhaps Francis is saying that Jesus is waiting for you whether or not you call yourself Christian.

Also, the Pope is not considered infallible in everything he says. Only in certain rare instances, and most Popes do not make those kind of statement or decisions. However, not all Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Maura said:


> He did not say the way to God is not through Christ. You donât know when or how a person evolves after death. Perhaps Francis is saying that Jesus is waiting for you whether or not you call yourself Christian.
> 
> Also, the Pope is not considered infallible in everything he says. Only in certain rare instances, and most Popes do not make those kind of statement or decisions. However, not all Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope.


There seems to be a misunderstanding about what being saved in Christ is (which is the central and non-negotiable tenant of the christian faith). It means that you make the choice to accept the sacrifice of Son of God as remission for your sins. If you choose to be atheist or Muslim until the day you die, you have not done that. 

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that *whosoever believes in Him,* should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16


----------



## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Weasel words are great things. Imply your beliefs over time but it is OK to deny it if you did not use ''specific'' words. It is both amusing and sad at the same time to watch it play out. Many on this sight could blend into politics with a little polishing.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

greg273 said:


> Didn't you vote for 'we're at war with Islam'??


That does not mean I hate Muslims. 

We were at war with Germany. That does not mean we hated Germans. 

Hate. War. We hate what we are warring against. 

Are you implying we are at war with all Muslims?


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

HDRider said:


> That does not mean I hate Muslims.
> 
> We were at war with Germany. That does not mean we hated Germans.
> 
> ...


 Whom you hate or don't hate isn't any of my business. My point was, You alleged that many Christians aren't 'religious', just following God. And I pointed out that applies to most people, whether you agree with their stated religion or not. 



> Originally Posted by *HDRider*
> _Maybe you should consider that many Christian have little to do with "religion", but more to do with God._


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

greg273 said:


> Whom you hate or don't hate isn't any of my business. My point was, You alleged that many Christians aren't 'religious', just following God. And I pointed out that applies to most people, whether you agree with their stated religion or not.


So you are suggesting Islamic terrorists are doing God's work?

Or

Are suggesting I hate all Muslims because I hate Islamic terrorist?

You asked the question about my vote to imply something, that for the world of me I can't figure out.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

HDRider said:


> So you are suggesting Islamic terrorists are doing God's work?
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


 You just did a poll on 'who we were at war with', given the early poll results, I thought perhaps you voted 'We are at war with Islam as a culture', which implies ALL muslims. Now I could be wrong about your vote, but your comments afterwards also led me to believe you think we are at war with all Muslims. Do you think we are?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

greg273 said:


> You just did a poll on 'who we were at war with', given the early poll results, I thought perhaps you voted 'We are at war with Islam as a culture', which implies ALL muslims. Now I could be wrong about your vote, but your comments afterwards also led me to believe you think we are at war with all Muslims. Do you think we are?


No...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Enter Schellnhuber, a German scientist who came up with the 2 degrees Centigrade temperature limit and is known for his radical ideas on climate change. That is, we must limit any increase in global warming to 2 degrees or humanity faces unavoidable catastrophe. In 2009, for example, he claimed famously that the âcarrying capacityâ of the Earth is less then one billion people. It will be interesting to see if he still holds these views in the near future, and if so, what advice he will offer on how to adjust that number, given that the worldâs population currently stands at 7.2 billion.

Schellnhuber, is director of Germanyâs Potsdam Institute, which has been crafting data, indicating alarming climate change like the 2 degree trigger, to frighten German politicians into adopting radical climate policies. His predictions are based on yet to be validated, computer-generated models, predicting doomsday scenarios. In reality, satellite data confirms there has been no notable warming for the past 18 years. Sea ice is on the rise. Crop production is increasing. Hurricane numbers are down. Sea level rise has declined for the past decade â all of the catastrophes Schellnhuber predicted â are not happening.

Perhaps that is why Schellnhuber revised his 2011 statement that the emissions curve needs to peak no later than 2020 in order to meet the 2 degree target. Now he says: at latest by 2030. Funny how climate change alarmists will keep adjusting their predictions instead of evaluating new data. Thatâs an example of why some call climate change âa moral crusade in search of a scientific theory.â

http://www.acton.org/pub/commentary/2015/06/17/unholy-alliance-who-advising-pope-francis-global-w


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

It's funny how those who voice the loudest objections to the earth's population are never interested in removing themselves from the equation.


----------



## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Maybe you should consider that many Christian have little to do with "religion", but more to do with God.


I don't disagree. But would also add that there are also a lot of people that have given themselves the "Christian" label and attend their churchly social club faithfully, and yet have little interest in God, which is sad.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> That does not mean I hate Muslims.
> 
> We were at war with Germany. That does not mean we hated Germans.
> 
> ...


No I have to call you wrong there. My grandparents were taught to hate both the Germans and Japanese during WWII. And that even was transferred to my parents who were born in the war years. Go back and look at some of the propoganda from WWII.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> No I have to call you wrong there. My grandparents were taught to hate both the Germans and Japanese during WWII. And that even was transferred to my parents who were born in the war years. Go back and look at some of the propoganda from WWII.


That is what makes this so much harder with these current middle eastern enemies. 

They are not a country. 
They have no central command structure. 
They sheild themselves with innocents. 
They don't abide by any agreed upon rules of war. 
They wrap themselves in the cloak of the second largest religion. 

You tell me the rules and boundaries of this war. Just don't tell me we are not at war.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> That is what makes this so much harder with these current middle eastern enemies.
> 
> They are not a country.
> They have no central command structure.
> ...


I would never tell you that. I believe we are at war, but trying to fight by our outdated rules and methods. Of course I have no idea how we can fight more effectively as we want to fight a "nice" war and the enemy knows that and uses it. We seem to want to fight but not destroy anything.


----------



## FutureFarm (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm reading 1984 again and came across the part where the main character reads Goldstein's book. The chapter about "War is Peace" sounds a lot like this situation. Couldn't help but see the similarities.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> There's nothing, necessarily "organized" about Christianity. There are organized churches, sects and denominations, which are all of man's influence upon the faith, but the only thing necessary to Christianity is God's message.
> 
> There was no "potshot"... I have a problem with his message being affiliated with Christianity because it is the antithesis of the Gospel message and I, in no way believe that he considers himself Christian no matter what he may be standing as the Grand Pooba of.


So half the books in the NT are not valid they are just man made? All those books about how to organize the Church? That's interesting.

And you seriously don't think the Pope considers himself to be a Christian?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Maybe you should consider that many Christian have little to do with "religion", but more to do with God.


I think what you mean is most Christians can't actually get along well enough with their fellow Christians and so they don't go to Church. And they excuse that by saying they are just following God rather than man. Which really means they are following the God they created in their own image and tweaked the Bible to suit.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I think what you mean is most Christians can't actually get along well enough with their fellow Christians and so they don't go to Church. And they excuse that by saying they are just following God rather than man. Which really means they are following the God they created in their own image and tweaked the Bible to suit.


Not what I meant at all. I would try to explain but it would be a waste of time. 

Go right ahead and live whatever lie that keeps your fire burning.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Not what I meant at all. I would try to explain but it would be a waste of time.
> 
> Go right ahead and live whatever lie that keeps your fire burning.


I am sure it wasn't what you meant because you don't want to think that is what you are actually doing. But the honest reality is that is what all of the Christians I have ever heard say that are actually doing. You guys wouldn't be fighting here amongst yourselves as to who really knows what God wants if you weren't tweaking him to suit your own personal agendas.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> So half the books in the NT are not valid they are just man made? All those books about how to organize the Church? That's interesting.
> 
> And you seriously don't think the Pope considers himself to be a Christian?


All of those books about how to organize a church? Where are those? Early believers were loosely structured and came together based upon their belief in Messiah and what He said. They congregated at one another's homes. They had elders, but not priests nor reverends. 

Jesus stated plainly to call no man "father" or "master" in the sense of a spiritual leader. God alone is to be those things to every believer.

He also said "where two or three or gathered in My Name, there I will be in the midst of them". 

No, I do not think the Pope considers himself to be Christian... though obviously that is the faith he is supposedly representing in the eyes of the world.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> I think what you mean is most Christians can't actually get along well enough with their fellow Christians and so they don't go to Church. And they excuse that by saying they are just following God rather than man. Which really means they are following the God they created in their own image and tweaked the Bible to suit.


I don't personally have a problem with my fellow believers, even the ones I can't agree with on some things. I do have a problem with the majority of church leadership, however.

I don't know why you assume an individual is necessarily inventing a God to suit them, but the organized leadership of countless denominations (also comprised of fallible humans) are not doing that. What connection to God does the pastor at the local church have that I do not have access to?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> All of those books about how to organize a church? Where are those? Early believers were loosely structured and came together based upon their belief in Messiah and what He said. They congregated at one another's homes. They had elders, but not priests nor reverends.
> 
> Jesus stated plainly to call no man "father" or "master" in the sense of a spiritual leader. God alone is to be those things to every believer.
> 
> ...


Wow really? That explains so much.... So I take it you don't consider any of Paul's writing canon? Start with 1 Timothy. 

I would love to know what you base your belief that Pope Francis does not consider himself a Christian on.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I don't personally have a problem with my fellow believers, even the ones I can't agree with on some things. I do have a problem with the majority of church leadership, however.
> 
> I don't know why you assume an individual is necessarily inventing a God to suit them, but the organized leadership of countless denominations (also comprised of fallible humans) are not doing that. What connection to God does the pastor at the local church have that I do not have access to?


I think all Christians do it to some degree. There is no doubt that denominations can go completely off road and there is no guarantee that any Church will have the one true faith. But what I have found to be pretty consistent across the board is that Christians who can't find a Church and fellow Christians they can get along with have serious problems and are far more likely to have heretical theology than those in a Church. Not to mention they have serious personality issues. 

The one thing that is pretty consistent from Jesus straight on through the NT is that the way we can tell you are a real Christian is by the love you show your fellow Christians. If you can't find a local group to get along with what does that say about the reality of your faith? 

[FONT=&quot]1 John 4:20-21 âIf someone says, âI love God,â and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? This commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.â[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Patcholi, you are quoting Bible verses but you seem to have a strong dislike for anyone with a faith based life. You keep starting with the individual when I think that you are starting with the wrong origination point. I see it as one individual being called by God and therein is the starting point, as we grow in faith, more and more of the teachings of Christ become dear to us in our own hearts. No matter how close we come to Christ and acting as if we were Him, we will never shed the title of "Sinner". I am one who shuns, to a degree, corporate or organized religion - to me, once a "church" stands within the state, it has chosen another "god" - there are few Churchs that stand apart from the state so there is little desire for me to attend. Now, tell me, am I making God in my own image or am I allowing Him to make me?


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> Wow really? That explains so much.... So I take it you don't consider any of Paul's writing canon? Start with 1 Timothy.
> 
> I would love to know what you base your belief that Pope Francis does not consider himself a Christian on.


I'm not sure why the contents of 1 Timothy bring to your mind the image of cathedrals, megachurches and a singular charming fellow who, unlike all the congregants, always interprets the scriptures perfectly. 

The "church" mentioned in the Bible is the entirety of the body of believers in the world. As I mentioned earlier, local believers would gather at one of their homes to worship, and while the elders held a position of respect for having walked in the faith for greater years and with good integrity...they were not given a position that rivaled Christ as the One Master who was the head of all believers.

As for why I don't believe that the Pope considers himself Christian...I'm not sure you'd Love to know...but I'm sure you'd Love to debate it. 

That's a long trip down a rabbit hole you're not interested in...but in a nutshell, he is an individual with a globalist agenda who has been adamantly promoting a globalist religion, economy and environmental movement, which is nothing more that a depopulation agenda, and if it means anything to you, he is a Jesuit. 

As a believer, I've already been briefed on who's plan those descriptions fit.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> I think all Christians do it to some degree. There is no doubt that denominations can go completely off road and there is no guarantee that any Church will have the one true faith. But what I have found to be pretty consistent across the board is that Christians who can't find a Church and fellow Christians they can get along with have serious problems and are far more likely to have heretical theology than those in a Church. Not to mention they have serious personality issues.
> 
> The one thing that is pretty consistent from Jesus straight on through the NT is that the way we can tell you are a real Christian is by the love you show your fellow Christians. If you can't find a local group to get along with what does that say about the reality of your faith?
> 
> ...


I get along with Christians and I have love for every one of them...as far as it is possible with me, I am at peace with every believer. In fact, I don't even hate my enemies, let alone fellow Christians. That does not mean I have to accept a certain denomination's leadership as my own.


----------



## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Shine said:


> ... to me, once a "church" stands within the state, it has chosen another "god" - there are few Churchs that stand apart from the state so there is little desire for me to attend. ...


I read that 4 or 5 times and I am still trying to figure out what you're saying.

"Within the state?" "Apart from the state?" I'm not understanding what you're saying. Maybe I missed something earlier, entirely possible.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Shine said:


> Patcholi, you are quoting Bible verses but you seem to have a strong dislike for anyone with a faith based life. You keep starting with the individual when I think that you are starting with the wrong origination point. I see it as one individual being called by God and therein is the starting point, as we grow in faith, more and more of the teachings of Christ become dear to us in our own hearts. No matter how close we come to Christ and acting as if we were Him, we will never shed the title of "Sinner". I am one who shuns, to a degree, corporate or organized religion - to me, once a "church" stands within the state, it has chosen another "god" - there are few Churchs that stand apart from the state so there is little desire for me to attend. Now, tell me, am I making God in my own image or am I allowing Him to make me?


Hebrews 10:
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 *Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.*


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I'm not sure why the contents of 1 Timothy bring to your mind the image of cathedrals, megachurches and a singular charming fellow who, unlike all the congregants, always interprets the scriptures perfectly.
> 
> The "church" mentioned in the Bible is the entirety of the body of believers in the world. As I mentioned earlier, local believers would gather at one of their homes to worship, and while the elders held a position of respect for having walked in the faith for greater years and with good integrity...they were not given a position that rivaled Christ as the One Master who was the head of all believers.
> 
> ...


So you will totally ignore his own statement of faith, his many quotes that show he has a true devotion to Jesus and a true relationship with him because you are off on some conspiracy theory? I don't see how you know you are a Christian unless you are just making up the rules yourself. Because he meets all of the requirements in the Bible and you are tossing his faith out because of your personal politics. If that isn't fashioning God in your own image I don't know what is. 



> 1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
> 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
> 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
> 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
> ...


I see a building and a government structure for Churches here. Maybe you can explain how that is supposed to happen with all of you floating around doing your own thing?


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm not Catholic but in my opinion the Pope is veering off into political causes and making lame claims. He is no authority on climate change or who can or cannot be called a Christian. He can only espouse the Catholic doctrine or his version of it. As I understand it, the Catholic church views the Pope as infallible only in matters of salvation. Therefore he can be totally wrong and biased in other matters. This guy is wrong on many things and his views on some things reflect a communist/Marxist slant. He is even wrong on salvation matters. He is dead wrong to say weapons manufacturers or those who invest in them are hypocrites. He is dead wrong to endorse a Palestinian state. Doesn't he even read the Bible? God punishes those who divide up His land and here we have the Pope pushing to do just that. Something is rotten in Denmark.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> So you will totally ignore his own statement of faith, his many quotes that show he has a true devotion to Jesus and a true relationship with him because you are off on some conspiracy theory? I don't see how you know you are a Christian unless you are just making up the rules yourself. Because he meets all of the requirements in the Bible and you are tossing his faith out because of your personal politics. If that isn't fashioning God in your own image I don't know what is.
> 
> I see a building and a government structure for Churches here. Maybe you can explain how that is supposed to happen with all of you floating around doing your own thing?


How would you rate the Pope and Catholic church in meeting the standards you posted? Or, how about many other organized churches?


----------



## Guest (Jun 23, 2015)

Bellyman said:


> I read that 4 or 5 times and I am still trying to figure out what you're saying.
> 
> "Within the state?" "Apart from the state?" I'm not understanding what you're saying. Maybe I missed something earlier, entirely possible.


I imagine submitting to federal IRS rule 501.C3 and being bound to the rules of worship, you know like ya can,t endorse a political candidate, and other threat to force conformity with the government intentions.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Bellyman... When the church decides to accept the governing dictates of the "state" then the church is no longer a Church but just another facet of the government. They are essentially trying to worship two gods, both of which being very jealous...

The Church needs not align themselves with any other than the One...

Once the church accepts the blessings of the government then the other relationship is severed...


----------



## Guest (Jun 23, 2015)

poppy said:


> I'm not Catholic but in my opinion the Pope is veering off into political causes and making lame claims. He is no authority on climate change or who can or cannot be called a Christian. He can only espouse the Catholic doctrine or his version of it. As I understand it, the Catholic church views the Pope as infallible only in matters of salvation. Therefore he can be totally wrong and biased in other matters. This guy is wrong on many things and his views on some things reflect a communist/Marxist slant. He is even wrong on salvation matters. He is dead wrong to say weapons manufacturers or those who invest in them are hypocrites. He is dead wrong to endorse a Palestinian state. Doesn't he even read the Bible?* God punishes those who divide up His land and here we have the Pope pushing to do just that. * Something is rotten in Denmark.


Dang we and Britain are in deep stuff, did we not do that with the formation of the new Isreal state, &#128513;


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

There are two "religions" practiced in Israel, Christianity and Judaism, one adheres to the new testament and the other the old testament or Torah. One is under the Law, the other has reduced it to two primary aims, to love God with all your heart, mind, body and spirit and the other to love one another...


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

dlmcafee said:


> Dang we and Britain are in deep stuff, did we not do that with the formation of the new Isreal state, &#128513;


No we did not. God gave it to the Jews as a permanent home. Actually we should have given them their full inheritance instead of just part of it.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I think all Christians do it to some degree. There is no doubt that denominations can go completely off road and there is no guarantee that any Church will have the one true faith. But what I have found to be pretty consistent across the board is that Christians who can't find a Church and fellow Christians they can get along with have serious problems and are far more likely to have heretical theology than those in a Church. Not to mention they have serious personality issues.
> 
> The one thing that is pretty consistent from Jesus straight on through the NT is that the way we can tell you are a real Christian is by the love you show your fellow Christians. If you can't find a local group to get along with what does that say about the reality of your faith?
> 
> ...


So you apply your little hypothesis to all 2.18 billion Christians?


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

lol... name one human that can pass that test:

[FONT=&quot]1 John 4:20-21 &#8220;If someone says, &#8216;I love God,&#8217; and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? This commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.&#8221;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]


----------



## Guest (Jun 23, 2015)

poppy said:


> No we did not. God gave it to the Jews as a permanent home. Actually we should have given them their full inheritance instead of just part of it.


See the smile at the end I was just poking for fun. Don't get your knickers in a bind. G.d scattered his people for a reason and promised their return. Being essentially exiled from those 2 countries because of bigotry and hate and with the displaced Ananazi Jews it gave them an easy out. I have not heard from G.d yet but maybe they had.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Read the last 4 books of the Old Testament, God scattered the Jews to the wind... No where that I know of in the New Testament have I read that the Jews were to return to the Promised land so the "gifting" of Israel back to the Jews was done by man's doings, possibly by Gods doings but the granting to the Jews this time was not overtly "Godly". The Jews continually angered their God...


----------



## Guest (Jun 23, 2015)

Shine said:


> Read the last 4 books of the Old Testament, God scattered the Jews to the wind... No where that I know of in the New Testament have I read that the Jews were to return to the Promised land so the "gifting" of Israel back to the Jews was done by man's doings, possibly by Gods doings but the granting to the Jews this time was not overtly "Godly". The Jews continually angered their God...


This is the main writings people use, in KJV its Joel 3.2

This is from the Tanakh Yoel (Joel) 4


1 For behold, in those days and in that time when I return the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem.
2 I will gather all the nations and I will take them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will contend with them there concerning My people and My heritage, Israel, which they scattered among the nations, and My land they divided.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Shine said:


> Read the last 4 books of the Old Testament, God scattered the Jews to the wind... No where that I know of in the New Testament have I read that the Jews were to return to the Promised land so the "gifting" of Israel back to the Jews was done by man's doings, possibly by Gods doings but the granting to the Jews this time was not overtly "Godly". The Jews continually angered their God...


I firmly believe it was the hand of God that brought the Jews back to Israel because without Israel in place, the prophecies of the end times could not be fulfilled. Example: How could all nations come against Israel if Israel didn't exist? Look at how present day Israel was formed. Who caused it to happen? No one can argue Israel would exist today without the holocaust and the international push to try to make it up to the Jews. Who caused the holocaust? It was the most evil man in last century. Do you think it was Hitler's goal to bring Israel into being when he was exterminating Jews? Certainly not. And yet, his actions brought Israel into being. God uses whom He will and Hitler had no say in it.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

poppy said:


> No we did not. God gave it to the Jews as a permanent home. .


 Yeah, according to the Jewish holy books. What a coincidence. 'Hey lookie here, this book we wrote says God wants us to have this place'. God is a prettty sweet real estate agent.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

poppy said:


> No we did not. God gave it to the Jews as a permanent home. Actually we should have given them their full inheritance instead of just part of it.


I don't know if God actually gave it to them. From the history it took a lot of hard work and fighting to establish it. Not what I would term "giving". Maybe giving an opportunity?


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

greg273 said:


> Yeah, according to the Jewish holy books. What a coincidence. 'Hey lookie here, this book we wrote says God wants us to have this place'. God is a prettty sweet real estate agent.


You might do well to look around at what's happening before you mock the Bible. When God said "I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all that concern themselves with it", how many presidents have tried and failed to make peace in that area? What's ALWAYS the stumbling block? Jerusalem. Can you offer a sane reason how a bunch of Jews thousands of years ago wrote that on their own and it is happening before your eyes? God said. "I am God and there is none like Me. Foretelling the end from the beginning". He told us and it's your problem if you choose not to believe.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

keenataz said:


> I don't know if God actually gave it to them. From the history it took a lot of hard work and fighting to establish it. Not what I would term "giving". Maybe giving an opportunity?


No, He promised it to them as an eternal inheritance. When they disobeyed, He also promised to scatter them among the nations. He also promised He would plant them back in that land and they would never be plucked up again.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

poppy said:


> You might do well to look around at what's happening before you mock the Bible. When God said "I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all that concern themselves with it", how many presidents have tried and failed to make peace in that area? What's ALWAYS the stumbling block? Jerusalem. Can you offer a sane reason how a bunch of Jews thousands of years ago wrote that on their own and it is happening before your eyes? God said. "I am God and there is none like Me. Foretelling the end from the beginning". He told us and it's your problem if you choose not to believe.


 So the ancient jews prophesized it would be hard to get along with them, and they'd be subject to strife. Given all that tribe has been through, I'd say that was a pretty safe bet. 
They could have peace in that region tomorrow if they wanted to, but they'd rather hold on to their grievences and quarrels. I don't believe the future is foretold, other than the obvious, that people will continue to be petty, hateful, hurtful, quarrelsome, and kill each other using whatever excuse is handy at the time.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> So you will totally ignore his own statement of faith, his many quotes that show he has a true devotion to Jesus and a true relationship with him because you are off on some conspiracy theory? I don't see how you know you are a Christian unless you are just making up the rules yourself. Because he meets all of the requirements in the Bible and you are tossing his faith out because of your personal politics. If that isn't fashioning God in your own image I don't know what is.
> 
> I see a building and a government structure for Churches here. Maybe you can explain how that is supposed to happen with all of you floating around doing your own thing?


I'm not ignoring what he's saying at all. He doesn't proclaim Jesus Christ as the One and Only way to eternal salvation. 

When even Satan comes as an angel of light, does it make sense to be willfully naive just because the man heads the Roman Catholic church?

I'd really like to know what the going definition of conspiracy theory is. I won't say I've never theorized in all my life, but Some things I talk about, I didn't have to theorize on.

The bible contains the rules. I'm literate...so what's the problem?

There's nothing political about my observations. They apply to prophetic scripture. Politics will be employed by religious leaders.... religion will be employed by government leaders.

Faith in Jesus needs neither structures nor any government element at all. In fact, it needs nothing except His Word, His people and Him.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

greg273 said:


> Yeah, according to the Jewish holy books. What a coincidence. 'Hey lookie here, this book we wrote says God wants us to have this place'. God is a prettty sweet real estate agent.


You always preach some form of tolerance, yet you mock Poppy and his beliefs, when you could simply be silent and respect the man's beliefs.

Please demonstrate what you speak.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Says the Pope, âThe developed countries ought to help pay this debt by significantly limiting their consumption of non-renewable energy and by assisting poorer countries to support policies and programs of sustainable development.â


Read more at http://spectator.org/articles/63202/pope’s-climate-confusion


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

HDRider said:


> So you apply your little hypothesis to all 2.18 billion Christians?


What hypothesis? That if they can't love each other they aren't really Christians? That is what your God says so if you have a problem with it you will have to take it up with him. Need more bible verses? I have plenty.....


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

keenataz said:


> I don't know if God actually gave it to them. From the history it took a lot of hard work and fighting to establish it. Not what I would term "giving". Maybe giving an opportunity?


God would beg to differ with you: 

Exodus 6:8 I will bring you into the land that I swore to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. I will give it to you for a possession. I am the LORD.ââ


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I'm not ignoring what he's saying at all. He doesn't proclaim Jesus Christ as the One and Only way to eternal salvation.
> 
> When even Satan comes as an angel of light, does it make sense to be willfully naive just because the man heads the Roman Catholic church?
> 
> ...


He claimed Jesus as his personal savior and he loves his fellow Christians so he meets the only 2 criteria I know of in the Bible. Like I said you can make up your own rules all day long doesn't make them valid. 

You may not think your observations are political but it's a pretty odd coincidence your religion happens to run along the same lines as your personal politics. You want to know what the biggest problem is with Christians in America? American comes first and Christian comes second.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> You want to know what the biggest problem is with Christians in America? American comes first and Christian comes second.


Yeah...I'd agree. Emphatically

and if you think that I fit that definition, you've got me very, very wrong.

I do not pledge my allegiance to the flag.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> Yeah...I'd agree. Emphatically
> 
> and if you think that I fit that definition, you've got me very, very wrong.
> 
> I do not pledge my allegiance to the flag.


That is good to hear and if I have misunderstood you I sincerely apologise.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

No problem... 

Perhaps I am misunderstood as being highly motivated by politics or the American flag because I am strongly opposed to the removal of freedoms from human lives. I despise bullying, trampling on people and taking advantage of those that can't defend themselves. I am particularly incensed by this when it comes from a government that hypocritically still claims it is running the show in the "land of the free". I do not stand with either party...to me it's all one big game being played on citizens.

God endowed men with the freedom to live like real human beings. The government never had the authority to give what we were already born with....and most assuredly does not have the right to take that away.

I could never, in good conscience, pledge my allegiance to anything or anyone but God....much less a government that is reflecting more devil than God these days.


----------



## Vikestand (Feb 27, 2015)

Only on this site will you have somebody claim the Pope(of all people) is interpreting the Bible wrong. lol


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Vikestand said:


> Only on this site will you have somebody claim the Pope(of all people) is interpreting the Bible wrong. lol


And that Catholics aren't Christian...


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Vikestand said:


> Only on this site will you have somebody claim the Pope(of all people) is interpreting the Bible wrong. lol


No, it's not just here and it's nothing new. The history of Europe, our own country and much of the world was and is still being influenced by Christianity's internal conflicts.


----------



## Vikestand (Feb 27, 2015)

mmoetc said:


> No, it's not just here and it's nothing new. The history of Europe, our own country and much of the world was and is still being influenced by Christianity's internal conflicts.


The fact that anybody would claim the Pope doesn't have a real understanding of the bible or "wonders what bible" he is reading is hilarious. People sure do love themselves a lot.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> And that Catholics aren't Christian...


Who says Catholics aren't Christian? I disagree with some of their doctrine because I personally find no Biblical justification for it. That does not mean they are not Christian or that I hate them. I assure you I do not hate them. There are hundreds of Christian denominations with various doctrines and the simple fact is, they can't all be right. I choose to read and study the Bible and use it to make my own mind up. No where in the Bible will you find that all churches are right. In fact, it says judgement begins at the house of the Lord. Look at the seven churches in Revelation. There are only two that Christ found no fault with, the other 5 have problems they need to set right. Oddly enough, those 2 both knew and taught the same thing.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> Who says Catholics aren't Christian? I disagree with some of their doctrine because I personally find no Biblical justification for it. That does not mean they are not Christian or that I hate them. I assure you I do not hate them. *There are hundreds of Christian denominations with various doctrines and the simple fact is, they can't all be right.* I choose to read and study the Bible and use it to make my own mind up. No where in the Bible will you find that all churches are right. In fact, it says judgement begins at the house of the Lord. Look at the seven churches in Revelation. There are only two that Christ found no fault with, the other 5 have problems they need to set right. Oddly enough, those 2 both knew and taught the same thing.


I wasn't pointing at any one person, this thread is littered with people that think Catholics are Christian. 

This is your opinion, and I'm sure that the hundreds (if not more) Christian denominations will disagree with you. They all feel their religion is reading the Bible correctly.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Vikestand said:


> The fact that anybody would claim the Pope doesn't have a real understanding of the bible or "wonders what bible" he is reading is hilarious. People sure do love themselves a lot.


Maybe they love God, and see the fallibility of man, EVEN the Pope.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> And that Catholics aren't Christian...


I don't think you'll find where I said that. I think you will find that I said I am at peace with every believer as far as it is possible with me. My problem is not with the congregants of various denominations...it's with the leadership.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> *The man is a Luciferian*, so I give him a 0.





Woolieface said:


> I don't think you'll find where I said that. I think you will find that I said I am at peace with every believer as far as it is possible with me. My problem is not with the congregants of various denominations...it's with the leadership.


Call me a silly heathen (again) but what are you trying to say when you indicate he's a Luciferian? 

I'll help with a definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Call me a silly heathen (again) but what are you trying to say when you indicate he's a Luciferian?
> 
> I'll help with a definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism


I would first have to say that I don't stand by Wikipedia's definition entirely. The subject could certainly take up a lot more space than they dedicate to it. 

I would not say that anyone truly practicing Luciferianism is an athiest...but like Satanism, there is a mainstream sect that claims their religion centers around a "concept" and not a literal being. The hardcore practitioners of either persuasion aren't particularly public about their beliefs.

As I don't want to write a novel, I will put it as shortly as possible: A Luciferian holds that YHWH of the bible is basically the inferior deity who created material existence...but not the Creator of all. Lucifer, is supposedly the true creator and "enlightened" mankind with the fruit of the tree of knowledge (which according to the bible was the downfall of the human race). 

This belief is practiced covertly under the guise of many more mainstream and acceptable religious practices and their beliefs only become evident to those who know the doctrine and what they mean when they begin speaking of global agendas...because ultimately, that is the goal of their belief system...to have the whole world under the authority of their "messiah".


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If you don't like the Wiki definition, how about the Greater Church of Luciferism? 

http://greaterchurchoflucifer.org/what-is-luciferianism/

You indicated that Pope Francis is a Luciferian, correct? And none of the definitions I have found, and I linked two, indicate that Luciferism is Christ based religion, correct? 

How can that be interpreted in any other way other than you think that Catholics are not Christians?


----------



## Guest (Jun 24, 2015)

Interesting, now with the sagely logic now instilled upon me, I can feel comforted in knowing that our country being led by a communist socialist is in fact the mind set of the citizens. Thanks a lot &#55357;&#56853;


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> So half the books in the NT are not valid they are just man made? All those books about how to organize the Church? That's interesting.
> 
> And you seriously don't think the Pope considers himself to be a Christian?


Do you think that the false prophets warned of in the NT will not consider themselves/portray themselves as Christian?


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Vikestand said:


> The fact that anybody would claim the Pope doesn't have a real understanding of the bible or "wonders what bible" he is reading is hilarious. People sure do love themselves a lot.


Even Satan has a real understanding of the Bible, hence his most powerful tool used for the destruction of souls is.....deception/distortion of God's word. He did it to Eve with one word.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> If you don't like the Wiki definition, how about the Greater Church of Luciferism?
> 
> http://greaterchurchoflucifer.org/what-is-luciferianism/
> 
> ...


No, Luciferianism is not Christ based. You will not find a full description of their beliefs published by them. 

What the Pope is and what Millions of Catholics are have nothing to do with one another. While many Catholics are genuine about their faith in Christ, my point is that the leadership of the church practices something covertly that they do not overtly announce.


----------

