# Gun suggestions



## Traffic gal (Sep 23, 2013)

So we are new to all this. I have shot guns a couple times before mostly a 9mm hand gun. My husband has had extensive training with guns but it was ALONG time ago, another lifetime really)

We are moving out to a 37 acre property in a few months. Speaking with the neighbor the predators we need to worry about are a couple coyotes, supposedly there may be a mountain lion or 2, fox, raccoons, skunks and snakes (copperhead and water moccasin) Our plan is to have some goats, chickens, horses, sheep, rabbits, lama or alpaca, cats and a dog or 2. 
My husband is convinced we MUST have at least 2 guns (one hand gun and one shot gun or rifle (if he had his way we would have both and more) 

My concerns are a few things 1) we have 3 young children how do we keep them 100% safe with regards to the guns. 2) I'm nervous to shoot the guns (which I will get over its just been many years since I shot anything even a BB gun) 3) how useful will the guns even be if I have to keep them locked up really well (assuming I will lock in one place and keep the amo locked in another) 4) what kinds and caliber of gun would you suggest for our operation?


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

the handgun question, is imposible to answer.. you just need to get to a gun store, and handle a few.. see what feels right.. you will know it when you feel it.. but I would recommend nothing with a caliber less than 38spl or 9mm, for your next gun I would highly recommend a pump shotgun. something like a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, super easy to operate, not picky on which ammo you use.. and with so many choices on the round you put it it.. they are the most versitale gun you can buy.. you could use #7(would be great for training, and the snakes) would work on the raccoons and skunks aswell.. jump up to something like #4 to 00 buck would be great for the coyotes and mountain lion, slug more so if your a good shot.. and the 00 buck is GREAT(best imo) for home defence ... and the ONLY way in my opinion to keep the gun safe and easily accesable in a emergency is proper training for you AND MOSTLY the children. I personaly don't like the lock the gun up, and ammo locked up thing.. when its an emergency, and seconds count.. your gun and ammo is just to far away, and to time consuming to access... training beats locks.... but if you just have to has it secured.. you can get rapid access gun safes.. that use either a password or fingerprint. so children caint get to them...(only takes a second for you to access) and inside is a loaded and ready gun... I hope this helps..


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## Lupine (Oct 2, 2013)

First...which state are you in?

Second: Look up Johny Appleseed marksman programs. Great for families and gun safety.

And NRA-certified gun safety classes. You especially will benefit.

As for firearms, there is no cookie-cutter answer, but you will get a ton of suggestions!

(A good pump 12 guage, a Ruger 10/22 and a simple autoloading pistol in .45 (Glock, Springfield, etc.) are my recommendations. For the pistol, avoid subcompacts until you are confident with shooting. Borrow a .22 pistol and practice, to avoid developing a flinch) 

Best way to prevent accidents is through training, education, and self-discipline. 



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## Traffic gal (Sep 23, 2013)

Im half asleep now its almost 2am now here...

I'm in PA 
My kids are twins age 4 and baby 7months so even if we teach them to be safe and not touch etc. I would still want it locked up! i

is a .22 useless? I like the idea of minimal kick easy handling (no flinching LOL)


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Traffic gal said:


> Im half asleep now its almost 2am now here...
> 
> I'm in PA
> My kids are twins age 4 and baby 7months so even if we teach them to be safe and not touch etc. I would still want it locked up! i
> ...


22 rimfires have killed more big game than any other caliber (poachers choice & they don't worry about bag limits)
You'll hear a lot about needing at least this much power or that much power. One hit with a 22 is better than six misses with a 44 magnum.


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## Lupine (Oct 2, 2013)

Purposefully hunting anything larger than a raccoon with a .22 is unethical. 

Counting on a .22 for home defense is suicidal. You need stopping power.

Poachers who manage to bag a deer with a .22 sacrifice a lot of wounded, lost quarry for the relatively quiet noise.

Regardless of caliber, shot placement is key.



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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Unless you live in an area that has lots of major crimes you should keep the guns locked up when small children are in a household. At 4 years old a child isn't to young to teach gun saftey. Make sure you have it unloaded and nothing in the mag and allow them to handle it so they won't want to sneek to touch and hold.

Now for the use you may have for a gun I would pass on the hand gun and go for a small caliber rifle like a 243,6mm and 6.5mm and a shot gun. The small caliber rifle can handle coyotes and even be used to hunt white tail deer with . The shot gun will take care of *****, possums and skunks and with slugs can take care of a second deer gun need. the shot gun with #4 buck is deadly on close range coyotes.

I carry my 22mag hand gun very little around our home stead and never the bigger caliber ones except to target shoot. The 22 Mag was brought out a couple months ago as some coyotes moved into the area again and I want the 22mag in case one comes after the dog when we are on our daily walks. 

:grin: Al


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

.22 and 9mm, one is always with me. Coyote and up, I go overboard, either 303, 308 or 30-06. Snakes...little 410 shotgun.
Sheriff used to have "Operation kid safe" where they offered gun locks to residents...might still be around.

Matt


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

exactly what wannaliv said!I bought an 870 in the 70's and put 200-300 rounds through it every year and the only thing I have ever done besides oil it is to change the choke tubes and my choice of ammo.
I raised 3 boy and NEVER had any of them touch my guns which were never in a gun locker 'cause I couldn't afford one.They knew the guns were mine and a tool, not a toy.I also made it a point early on to teach them that my guns were ALWAYS loaded(whether they were or not) Education is the key to gun safety.
Hand gun have their place. Most likely you will find that while out working that pest will show up and before you can get to your long gun it's too late.Carrying even a sidearm all the time is a real pain until you get used to it.Your lack of experience with firearms leads me to think you would do very well with the 22 magnum or the newer 17hmr. Both are available in rifle or pistol,very low recoil,flat trajectory and enough penetration and"stopping power" to take care of most your need.They are also much cheaper to shoot than larger calibers.People 'round here use them for anything from squirrel to coyote. Get the 870 in 12 gauge with a slug barrel and a "choke tube" barrel and you're good to go for anything from quail and dove to deer.
More than anything,do your research. Good luck. Hope this helps.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Sorry,it's been so long now I forgot. I wanted to also say that part of teaching my kids not to handle guns and that they are ALWAYS loaded was to keep a rifle standing in the corner by the back door where they saw it every time they went out to play.There is a type firework that has a string out both ends "snapps or poppers" or something like that. Take clear tape and put it on the wall and the other end on the barrel of the gun and when it is moved "BANG". You'll find the guilty one shuddering under his bed!


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

On the topic of teaching strategies, my dad taught me to handle and operate the guns in the house at what many would consider a ridiculously young age. The day before we would go shooting, he would give me a 3 ft dowel with the end painted orange. I had to carry it around with me all day - out playing, to the dinner table etc. - and if I pointed it at something it would be unacceptable to point a gun at, I wasn't allowed to go shooting. 

This was in the 80's before it was common to keep guns locked up. I'm still not sure that I've reconciled that trend. My wife and I do not have kids yet, but I can't imagine living in a house without a loaded gun in (almost) every room. If I needed to get to one quickly to defend my wife or myself, I'd hate to have to fight with a lock. I realize that there is risk involved with loaded/unlocked guns, but it seems to me like there is risk involved with NOT having loaded/unlocked guns.


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## Rollochrome (Apr 9, 2012)

I live on a small ranch, have a lifetime of firearms experience and formal training (never enough), and four small children.

Here's what I would tell you traffic gal.....

1. YOU go get trained. Husband too. Firearms training is cheap and fun. Look to local gun ranges and ask about firearms training. I am going to tell you that NOONE has too much experience. I trained quite a bit in 2013 and chalked it up to part of the regular maintenance of ME as a protector and steward of my family. Go get trained. You will be surprised how much you will learn. Seriously....GO GET TRAINED. Absolutely imperative. 

2. We have the same plan as you describe for your 37 acres. We have basically the same predators as you described. We have almost exactly the same livestocking plan as you described. One size does not fit all. Pick the right tool for the job.

Here's the tools:

1. Pistols: I always keep a small pistol in my pocket on the ranch, mostly because of the fact that I concealed carry everyday anyway, but I am going to tell you that unless the threat is within a few feet of you, it's just a noise maker. You can scare off some wild dogs or something, but you won't hit the side of a barn with a pistol. Still, I'd rather shoot a pistol than throw rocks, but I would not consider this to be a primary ranch tool. Personal defense shooting typically occur within 3 feet. That's where you want a pistol. Threats out on a ranch are at distance usually. Not many animals are going to sneak up to you. You're going to see some wild dogs at 70 yards, or a yote, or a bobcat, or whatever....and it is going to be no closer than 50 yards typically as they don't want anything to do with you..

2. Rifles: I like to keep an AR-15. Why? Hand one to a little kid and tell him to pull the charging handle. He can't do it. Hand anything else to a child and they'll probably get a side charging rifle to charge, like an AK or whatever. AR's are hard to charge unless you are an adult. So you put a full magazine in the weapon, and do not charge the weapon. Chamber empty.

Why else? They're lightweight so you can throw one on your back when walking the property and it is not an encumbrance. A 16" barrel with tele-stock is about as long as your arm. They're reliable when maintained. Very accurate. And the .223 round is going to kill everything on your ranch. And it's not too much gun. Easy recoil. Easy follow up shots. And fun!

Get a Bushmaster, Windham, DPMS or if you have lots of cash, a Colt, then put a Aimpoint Patrol Rifle Optic on it for $400 more. Turn the optic on, and the battery is good for 3 years with it on the entire time. You don't want to be fiddling with switches when you need it. Throw the factory sling on it, and you're good to go. I have a forward handle on mine and a little tactical light, but to each his own. This is an investment. Expect to pay $900 for the gun alone.

3. Shotgun: $250 gets you a good pump 12. Get one and some #7 shot. Blow a snake away if you had to as well as pepper the heck out of anything within 20 to 30 yards. Standard equipment. Get you some doves too! They're easy to load and easy to charge, so I would not keep shells in it. Keep the shotgun in the closet and the shells in a cheapo $75 Office Depot electronic lock box with a keypad right next to it. The shovel is your go to weapon for snakes...

4. Shovel: Put a flat faced shovel at the front and back door. Nothing is a better tool for killing snakes. Much safer than shooting a gun at your feet and potentially richotteing a shot into an eyeball or window. Go to the shotgun as a last resort on a snake.

Now.....CHILDREN AND FIREARMS...............

Train your children...

Train your children.....

Train your children.........

Do not move the little porcelain sugar bowl out of reach. TRAIN your child not to grab the porcelain sugar bowl off the table..

Get it????

Put a rifle, unloaded, against a wall in the house. Train your children not to touch it. IF they do, crack them in the bottom with a wooden spoon. 

Expose them to it.....and train them not to touch it.

If a rifle is as common in your house as a desk or light switch, they will learn that it is not forbidden fruit. If they ask to see it, stop what you are doing everytime and have "gun time". After awhile, it just stops being a big deal.

Then, you can load the magazine in the weapon and it still sits in the same corner everyday like an umbrella. Chamber empty. But ready to rock if you look out the back door and see a yote walking around with a chicken in its mouth....

We have had good success with this approach.

Remember....nothing out there on that ranch is worth protecting to the endangerment of your family. Err on the side of safety even if that makes the weapon "less ready". YOU are the only real "SAFETY" on that weapon. Train that way.

Blessings!


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

4 years old is not to young to teach. mine started at 4.. and were pretty good shots for their age.. the key is keep them exposed to the gun at all times.. that takes the curiosity away.. curiosity is what kills...but rapid access safes are a good choice.. gun is still secure, and not so time consuming for you to get in an emergency... and a 22 is a good choice for homesteading or survivalism.. right after a shotgun imo. a shotgun may not be perfect for any one job. but can cover them all.... imo go.. shotgun, then handgun, the 22.


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## Tinga (Jul 24, 2011)

I have 2 special needs kiddos and something that I've learned is If it's new or forbidden... they WANT. Once something looses it's fascination, kids tend to leave it alone. I leave safety ON and noting in the chamber but loaded. Mommy's Mossberg, as they call it, Is hanging above the front door.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Any gun in the house, loaded or unloaded, locked or unlocked, is useless if the threat is outside. The threat will be gone or have done its damage by the time you get back outside with it. A shovel leaning against the house/garage/fence is the way to go if your gun is always in the house.

Does your jurisdiction allow conceled and/or open handgun carry on your own property? Will children, guests, neighbors etc object to open carry? Do you have the training and permit for conceled carry?

I always carry conceled and reccomend a loaded lightweight 22, 38 or 357 revolver with snake shot in the first few chambers to dispach snakes or scare animals as needed, and solids or hollow-points in the rest . Lightweight and small so you actually do carry it. 

Big and heavy handguns are more accurate and, maybe, more deadly but you are not likely to carry it with you outside after the first week or so.

I am assuming that you live in a somewhat warm location from the snakes listed. Concealing a large handgun wearing summer work clothes is difficult. A small revolver can be conceled much easier. 

Use a proper rifle or shotgun if you are going to hunt the animals. Use a properly licensed self-defense handgun (big and heavy) for carry off your property and/or in your nightstand.

Whatever you get, try to shoot it a lot so you are comfortable with it and can hit your target. Starting with a 22 is a good option.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Lupine said:


> Purposefully hunting anything larger than a raccoon with a .22 is unethical.
> 
> Counting on a .22 for home defense is suicidal. You need stopping power.
> 
> ...


Some of the big northern ***** I've seen, it'd be unethical to hunt them with a 22.
IME poachers have better kill rates than legal hunter. Most are taking head shots of about 10-25 yards with the deer held in the beam of a light. Head shot with a 22 kills a lot faster than a traditional behind the shoulder with a 30/06. Of the dozens upon dozens of previously shot deer I & my dogs have found over the years only one was probably a poacher. Its jaw was broken by a 22. All of the others were previously hit with legal size bullets, buckshot or arrows.
The one thing I agree with is shot placement. 
Now I'm going to clue you and everyone here in on a Marine Corps secret. It's called the pelvic girdle. It's the triangle from the belt to the man parts and between the hip joints. Unless you're Aaron Spelling, at household ranges even a 22 LR will break the pelvis if you shoot someone there. The hydrostatic shock will make it feel like Mark McGuire just used your testicles for batting practice. Since most people carry their weapon pointing at a spot 5-8 feet in front of them on the ground, it is the very first target of opportunity in most engagements (called the alert carry in the USMC and the ready in the US Army). So we teach Marines to take that first shot there and continue engagement until the bad guy drops and stops moving. What most people don't know is that 99 of 100 guys will drop like a rock when hit in the pelvic girdle. The broken pelvic bone will prevent them from running and most from walking or crawling. Additionally there is always the chance of hitting a femoral artery which will bleed them out before an ambulance (or cop for that matter) can get there. Even if they aren't immediately killed the contents of their intestines being dumped into the body cavity will put them into systemic sepsis within hours and they will need very high doses of antibiotic to survive the infection. Without immediate and competent medical attention a hit to the pelvic girdle is 100% fatal. A 22 pistol or semiautomatic rifle will allow most any shooter to quickly put multiple hits into the pelvic girdle.
Anyone who doesn't believe is more than welcome to grab a friend, some beer and a 22 and prove I'm wrong. But first get some good life insurance and let me know what your future widow's favorites are.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I can confirm the previous post. I n law enforcement it is called the i.n.z. triangle standing for "immediate neutralization zone."


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

yeah, and the triangle on your face from between your eyes to your uperlip/nose area is also the fastest kill.. but 99.9 percent of ppl in a life or death situation will not have the time or fine motor controle skills to his such a small target.. that is why (imo) any good instructer will say the upper chest is the target of choice, biggest area with vital organs.. and remember you caint argue this point. even with our soldiers it has been proven it takes something like 1000 rounds for every kill.. that is because with out extensive traing, you WILL spray and pray.. accuracy by volume.. so training trumps any kind of tactics you can develop.... train train train... remember its fact that when put in a life/death situation you will always resort to you level of training.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

as to a gun, get a .22 or a small bore rifle.

get a .38/.357 revolver or another .22LR pistol.

Or whatever tickles his and your fancy.

As to the kids. YOU are going to be the biggest issue here. Just from the way you posted your OP.

It's as if you were raised that guns are evil and are to be afraid of. It's as far from the truth as you can get.

Guns are nothing but an inanimate object that needs to be taught to be respected just like a knife, ax or chainsaw.

how you act around them will have as much to do with how the kids act around them.

Expose them to them, but teach them to respect guns.

NRA has a program called Eddie Eagle. It's a place to start with young kids.
http://eddieeagle.nra.org/

But first and foremost, get them used to being or having a gun around. If need be, just start with a realistic airsoft pistol and get them used to it.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Traffic gal, 

A gun for daily carry for farm use isn't necessarily the same as the best gun for defense against humans. All animals you list can be killed or scared away by almost any handgun you pick. Cougars too. 

Get one that fits your hand and that you can easily operate. Then buy a bunch of paper plates for targets and start shooting. Shoot a lot. Shooting is a sport/hobby and fun. Teach your kids to shoot a cheap 22 rifle. Shoot a few pop cans, water bottles, etc for fun and to show kids something other than holes in paper happen when bullets hit.

Worry about self defense after you can hit the paper plate at 20' or so.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Remember too, before you think about shooting some of those animals just because you see them on your property, find out what the laws are about shooting them....


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

For a handgun I'd suggest looking at the taurus judge or S&W govenor. With it being able to shoot 410 and 45LC (govenor also shoots 45acp) gives yo the option of taking care of wide variety of threats. When walking around the place I carry the 1st 2 chambers as 410 shells for rattlesnakes. The other 3 are critical defense 45LC loads for bigger threats.

WWW


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

wy_white_wolf said:


> For a handgun I'd suggest looking at the taurus judge or S&W govenor. With it being able to shoot 410 and 45LC (govenor also shoots 45acp) gives yo the option of taking care of wide variety of threats. When walking around the place I carry the 1st 2 chambers as 410 shells for rattlesnakes. The other 3 are critical defense 45LC loads for bigger threats.
> 
> WWW


Wow.. that's overkill for a lady to carry around... My wife was looking at them... even the ultralight was too much for every day carry. Not to mention quite a bang for someone that isn't used to doing much shooting... 

Now she carries a 38 bodyguard on the farm... every other chamber is shotshell.. in between is a slug...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

where to start 

kids - kids are raised with guns as a tool or kids are raised with guns as a item of fascination they see on tv , you get to decide 

if you have really young kids and want really good access to your gun there is basically one option , you wear your gun in a good holster.

this myth of pistol inaccuracy , It generally isn't the gun it's the person , at 50 feet a person should have no problem hitting a gallon milk jug reliably with any pistol worth having , I can usually get a 1/2 liter water bottle at 15 yards with my 3 inch barrel carry gun yes it takes practice but you would be surprised how fast you can get it with a little good instruction. we shoot targets the size of a quart mason jar at 60 meters about 200 feet standing with off the shelf 22 pistols and ammo the gun can do it ,the shooter not always but misses are not usually that far off, if the target were a bushel basket it would get hit every time.


guns and farm steads , well a gun is a tool , you use the right tool for the job , here is an example you do fence repairs you carry a fence tool http://www.amazon.com/Channellock-8...qid=1381181935&sr=8-3&keywords=fencing+pliers now you go out and you may pound a few staples with your fence tool but you don't go out and pound hundreds of staples with a fence tool you grab an actual hammer.

so a pistol is a bit like a fence tool , you can keep it with you all the time and while it isn't the ideal tool for the job of say shooting a coyote at 50+ yards it be virtue of being the gun you have on you at the time is the best gun at the time. your not coyote hunting your doing chores and happen to see something that needs shooting or at least shooting at.

22 is very use full , for practice ,dispatching livestock , for small game , small varmint , not ideal for a coyote that isn't in a trap , but if it is what you have in your hands. 

shot placement is everything no mater what your shooting , size can only help you so much , you can shoot a bull in the chest with any self defence handgun like what a cop would carry and it will still be standing in 10 minutes or you cam pop it in the ear with a 22lr and have it ready to butcher in 10 minutes 

now you could take the one hammer approach , some people do this and then the tool if choice is generally a 12 ga shotgun 

a better choice is a pistol that you can comfortably carry with you , a 22 that you can practice with dispatch with , a rifle that you can hunt an take longer shots at coyotes and since you mentioned your in snake country hogs since not much of the country that has snakes doesn't have hogs , and a shotgun.
if your distances are under 100 yards a shotgun can do double duty as a rifle with the proper load but shotguns 

no one says you need to rush to the store and buy them all tomorrow , learn research and understand then purchase.

about 350-550 for most good quality handguns , it's best if you can take a training course and shoot some of theirs first then decide what you like 

budget wise about 200 for a 22 , right now finding 22 ammo is a little hard , i hope that gets better soon.

rifles 300-500 , there are a lot of entry level hunting guns on the market that shoot better than their price might suggest starting around 300

shotguns , about 350 for a Remington 870 , I say 870 because they have basically made the same gun now for 50 years with interchangeable parts and it has more parts available for it than any other shotgun around you can get a shotgun for about 225 but if you break it there is not the parts availability 

a pistol for each of you and a 22lr rifle would be a great place to start , don't cheap out on a hostler get one that fits and is comfortable.

I agree with the others , it is all about training your kids not to say i wouldn't put the guns up high or locked up when they are very little but 5-8 is about the right time to start them shooting with a bb gun as a supervised shooting time to build the basics of marksmanship.

leaving a unloaded gun in a corner to train them and test them and let them know if they ask to see it you will check it make sure it's unloaded and have that handling taboo breaking time with them , if they say mommy can i see your pistol you go to a place where it can be pointed in a safe direction , unloaded , checked unloaded action open and shown to them , then when they have seen and gotten their curiosity out you reload and holster in the safe direction then go back to what you were doing.

I have a 8 10 and 12 year old they are so used to seeing guns around the house they think nothing of it , the only actual loaded one is on me , but all guns are treated as loaded. not to say the magazine for some aren't loaded and near by , but if i need a gun right now the one i am carrying will have to do. 

so lets say you put a rifle over the back door , it is up away from toddlers , and you keep it unloaded but say have the magazine next to it on the shelf or you may even carry that in a shirt pocket if it is small enough you see a coyote near the chicken coop , you can grab it and be loaded in seconds. It is a compromise you can probably live with , if you leave the farm you could lock it up in a safe , it is all up to what you determine to be the best decision for your family , there is no cookie cutter answer.

practice , be safe , and do whats right for you but do it fully educated and not in fear out of ignorance. understand what a gun is what it isn't and what it can and can't do.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wannalive said:


> yeah, and the triangle on your face from between your eyes to your uperlip/nose area is also the fastest kill.. but 99.9 percent of ppl in a life or death situation will not have the time or fine motor controle skills to his such a small target.. that is why (imo) any good instructer will say the upper chest is the target of choice, biggest area with vital organs.. and remember you caint argue this point. even with our soldiers it has been proven it takes something like 1000 rounds for every kill.. that is because with out extensive traing, you WILL spray and pray.. accuracy by volume.. so training trumps any kind of tactics you can develop.... train train train... remember its fact that when put in a life/death situation you will always resort to you level of training.


What are you creedee reincarnated? A good instructor will teach you to engage the FIRST target available which is USUALLY the pelvic girdle. Coincidentally the pelvic girdle is about the same size as the stop zone in the torso which is actually a 6" X 12" rectangle running vertically from the collar bone to about 2" below the zyphoid. By comparison the pelvic girdle is a triangle usually about 12-14" across at the belt by about 8-10" down to the base of the penis. Hits outside the triangle in the upper leg will generally impact the ball of the femur with a high probability of cutting the femoral artery.
As for the thousands of rounds, unlike the guy breaking into your home bad guys in combat like to hide behind mud brick walls, large boulders, date palms & vehicles. All of which must be destroyed by fire before your bullets can actually hit them. Additionally suppressing fire is often used to hold groups of hostile fighters in place behind cover while friendly forces move around & kill them with well aimed shots to the back. All of that tends to throw off the number of rounds fired to people killed ratio.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

well pops2.. it seams like comparing apples to oragnes... you have evendently been trainded for combat.. and that is well and good.. but the other 99 percent of us are not.. we are(or should be) trained for the real day to day life.. where it Is the bad guy breaking into your home or the mugger on the street... and just so you know.. I am trained, but more than one trainer/acadamey, and almost all highly recommend the upper torso for the new shooter.. then work into the zipper drill. starting down low(pelvic region like you like), the use the muzzle climb from recoil to help you do a zipper up the body until reaching the head... some time they teach the mozambeak(sp) drill... 2 quick shots to upper torso then one to the face triangle... some even teach just point shooting..which is just pointing the gun in direction of gun and focusing on front sight only.. a lot of way to train.. but most in the civilian world train upper torso... but anyway we are getting way off topic.. op wanted suggestions on a first gun, not advanced tactics.... so like I said I highly recommend a 12 or 20 ga shotty for a first.. a lot of guns can do a particular job better, but none in my opinion can cover as much ground as a shotty..


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wannalive said:


> well pops2.. it seams like comparing apples to oragnes... you have evendently been trainded for combat.. and that is well and good.. but the other 99 percent of us are not.. we are(or should be) trained for the real day to day life.. where it Is the bad guy breaking into your home or the mugger on the street... and just so you know.. I am trained, but more than one trainer/acadamey, and almost all highly recommend the upper torso for the new shooter.. then work into the zipper drill. starting down low(pelvic region like you like), the use the muzzle climb from recoil to help you do a zipper up the body until reaching the head... some time they teach the mozambeak(sp) drill... 2 quick shots to upper torso then one to the face triangle... some even teach just point shooting..which is just pointing the gun in direction of gun and focusing on front sight only.. a lot of way to train.. but most in the civilian world train upper torso... but anyway we are getting way off topic.. op wanted suggestions on a first gun, not advanced tactics.... so like I said I highly recommend a 12 or 20 ga shotty for a first.. a lot of guns can do a particular job better, but none in my opinion can cover as much ground as a shotty..


I agree with the shotty recommendation.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I agree that if your going to go with one gun does all the shotgun is the way to go , but having a 30 cal rifle , a 22lr rifle , a pistol and a shotgun , there are very few times i would grab the shotgun. for around the homestead chores involving a gun , short of shooting coyotes across the field i am going to grab the 22lr and carry the pistol in a holster. wood chuck and **** are probably the biggest issues. it would come down to economics even at 30 dollars a brick 22lr is still 6 cents a round 
a slug is 75 cents a round and buck shot is 98 cents a round then figure in potential collateral damage , a friend shot a **** in his corn crib with a 30-30 and ended up having to fix the corn crib where he blew out a board , a 22 probably wouldn't have done that. most of my 22s don't find their way out of the **** I actually use CBee longs much of the time for the very low noise and limited penetration for in and around buildings when i tested CBee longs would not penetrate a 2x4 but if you shoot a **** in the right place from 20 feet away they ball up the ear the neck or behind the shoulder in the first ribs as they waddle away . noise is also a factor have you ever shot a 12 ga in a confined space holy hurt your ears batman.

so to answer a previous question , is 22 useful you better believe it is , but you need to have decent shot placement 

if bears were an issue slugs in a shotgun would then cross my mind big deep penetration 

I have been shooting deer for 20+ years with slugs and i have a nice setup great for deer or land shooting but if i had my choice I am not sure i would grab the shotgun for deer over the 30-06 even considering most of my shots are under 100 yards


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