# Factory Farming: A Blessing or A Curse?



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

Hello all, Iâll like to know what you think about factory farming. With some people, that words brings to mind animal cruelty, antibiotic misuse, pollution and so on. On the other hand, theyâve really help in feeding the booming population of the world. Now to you personally, what is your view about factory farms? What better ways can the world be fed without harming the environment?


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

More local production. How many suburbanites have big lawns that they spend a ton of money dumping chemicals on and get no food out of it? Family gardens and meat animals also lead to other sustainable activities like composting, feeding scraps to the chickens, fertilizing the garden with chicken poop, weeding with geese...

I wouldn't go so far as to ban factory farming. I try not to let perfection be the enemy of good, and it is good that our poor can afford to buy chicken for dinner. Imagine a politician now campaigning on "a chicken in every pot"! People should have the free choice to prioritize food and humane treatment of animals for themselves and not be told how they have to eat.

I would encourage people that can afford to to buy more of their meat from small producers that spend more effort on animal welfare, and I would encourage lawmakers to loosen the restriction on direct farmer to consumer sales of farm products, and ease restrictions on suburban families keeping small meat and egg flocks in their yards.


----------



## Lady89 (Feb 22, 2014)

It is in truth both for all the reasons you pointed out poultryguy. I think we should try to get away from it as much as possible by buying local from small scale farmers but that being said factory farming is an important tool to fight world hunger


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I've heard repeatedly we have to keep increasing our farm output to feed the "booming populations of the world". Whether its chicken, pigs, corn, soy etc maybe the booming populations should slow down on the booming. 

If we pollute our own waters and deplete the soil and expose our own children to toxic chemicals to support the countries that grow past their abilities to feed and shelter themselves, is that wise? I am trying to buy more locally grown food products. I eat factory raised foods as does my DH. Each year we'll try to grow more and buy more locally. 

The world needs to take an honest look at what they can do to feed themselves and that also means looking at reproduction rates... Many of the poorest and chronically hungry populations have 4 or more children, often without the stability of both a husband and wife committed to seeing the children reaching adulthood. OK I'll get off the :soap:.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't even like the term, "factory farming" in the first place. Just because these farms do things extremely efficiently and scientifically, does not make them wrong or evil, or a curse. I would argue they are less damaging than the alternatives.

Imagine trying to raise 80 000 chickens outside? And then figure out how much poorer they would perform on a year round basis. You would need double the numbers to produce the same amount of eggs. To have free run farms, you would need three or ten times the footprint on the earth. So if all of a sudden, you are feeding twice as many birds to keep up production, because climate control, lighting, and scientific feeding is out the window, you need twice the grain grown for the same production. And now you are producing twice the manure, which again needs twice the land to spread it on.

How many of us can attain a 90%+ rate of lay, year round, outside a climate controlled building? 

The world is not in the 1940's anymore. We do not have a mere 2 billion people anymore. 20% of the population does not farm anymore. So who is up to it/ Who will be the farmers who grow the food for the world? New farmers are not exactly coming on stream in droves in most areas. Yes, you have your little organic, "local" farms, that cater to a few or ten families. But can you imagine what would happen if the farms that grow enough food to support 20, 200, 2000, or 20 000 families were to disappear? Who would fill the void?

Ideally, all animals would be raised the old fashioned way. It is a romantic notion to look wistfully on days gone by. But as the cost of living has gone up, farmers have had to get larger to keep a feasible living wage, because commodities, other than a few blips along the way are stagnant. What other occupation would be satisfied, or able to cope with 1960's wages, under the current cost of basic living?

In 1976, my dad bought a tractor new, with 4000 bushels of wheat. Today, an equivalent sized new tractor, would cost me 40 000 bushels of wheat. He bought a new truck in 1980 for 800 bushels of wheat. today a new truck would be something like 7 or 8 THOUSAND bushels of wheat. Not that I buy new stuff, or need it, just trying to show the difference in cost structure.

The sad reality, is that in order for a farmer to make a feasible living, in order to produce food efficiently, in order to feed the soon to be 9 BILLION people, farms have had to grow, become much more efficient, and use science to help keep pace.

If we farmers had not done that, food would be taking up 40% of our living wage like it does in Kenya, not the paltry 12 or 15% we spend in North America. 

For that reason, I have mixed thoughts: Perhaps if we had not used fertilizers and zero tillage practices to increase wheat yields by two and three times in the last few decades, we would be getting twice the price. But then we would be producing half as much???

I think it is a blessing that we have factory farms. Sure, they are not a romantic ideal. But what is the alternative? Really, what is it?


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

True, "factory farms" is a really broad brush. Some might consider my cousin's place a factory farm, he has a decent size milking herd, feeds them with a computerized feed mixer that puts feed out on a conveyor. Cows with special needs have rfid tags that open a feed bunk with suppliments or medication specific to them. ...but... The place was very clean, cows very well cared for. My friend had a small milk operation, the old barn was hard to keep clean, calves were tied to posts instead of getting calf huts with little porches in the sunshine... In this very narrow comparison, I'd rather be the cow on the factory farm than the small farm. ... but our distribution system keeps us from knowing our producers, all kinds of milk operations sell to the local milk bottling company...


----------



## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

We need more families running smaller chicken operations. Smaller numbers of chickens spread out over more farms can be run more humanely than the big operations and have the added benefit of providing a living for the families involved. There are a lot of people who need jobs that are not particularly skilled. However, running a chicken operation like in the following link is not that complex. I even ran Dad's once for a week when he was sick, including doing the paperwork and I was 12 years old at the time. Here is my post on another thread http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/7362009-post99.html .


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Farmer Dale, do you believe we have a moral obligation to feed the soon 9 billion people? 

If we do, how do we get the food to the people as the transportation costs increase? 

Do we have a right to say practice birth control and we will supplement x% of your native foods? 

I do not believe in abortion but I most whole heartedly believe in birth control. Now while some may say I've gotten off the topic started, please take note that almost every large farmer justifies their production choices by saying "we've got to feed the burgeoning world population". 

Also do we HAVE to feed the world because it is a moral obligation or it is profitable?


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

light rain said:


> Farmer Dale, do you believe we have a moral obligation to feed the soon 9 billion people?
> 
> If we do, how do we get the food to the people as the transportation costs increase?
> 
> ...


Yes we need to feed the world. No it is not because it is profitable. Farming is not always profitable, (it is often quite the opposite), it is what we farmers love to do. The best way to be profitable, would be if we produced less, not more, and the world was half starving.

I farm and am one of the smallest farmers in our area. Size should not matter, we all love our farms, our soil, and our life. Highly productive farms speak for themselves. I do not and never have felt the need to "justify" highly productive, efficient, and environmentally conscious farming practices, by stating we need it to feed the world.

There is plenty more room in this world for more people. I do not believe in limiting a families choice to have half a dozen kids if they want. We "western" folks are the ones NOT having many kids, but we are the hardest on the resources. The places where families are largest, often have less environmental impact, because they are satisfied with the basics of life. We North Americans need it all, two cars, two homes, boats, plastic toys for the kids.

I look at it in a practical way. We need "factory" (hate that term) farms.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

How do we get the food there? Well, we show these areas that are furthest behind, how to farm properly. I would love to share with areas of Africa, how to farm efficiently. But alas, governmental corruption, and infrastructure for high output farming is lacking.

The thing is, Canada exports so much food to places that DO NOT need it the most: Mexico, the US, China, Europe, Japan. These places have money. Areas that need it most, do not have money, mainly because of governmental priorities. 

It is most unfortunate that this is how the world is...


----------



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

Great contributions! I think the reason why the government try to restrict sales from local farms is to avoid competition that will take factory farms out of business. considering the level of investment they've made, that action may be understandable. However, if all the inhumane aspects I've read about factory farms are true, I'll say that they have to do something about it. The most serious one being the issue of antibiotic misuse. They should probably look into herbs as a means of boosting immunity! The reason why I like factory farming is because I don't think small farms can match their capacity and efficiency.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Poultryguy said:


> They should probably look into herbs as a means of boosting immunity!


Just more space per bird is the best immunity boost they can get. More bedding per bird means fresher air, more air to sweep away airborne disease particles, less frequently encountering fresh manure of other birds, etc... This is a major cost though to the farmers.


----------



## SmokeEater2 (Jan 11, 2010)

Here in Arkansas we have lots of chicken and turkey CAFO operations. The English language can't come close to describing the eye watering stench of those things.

If you've never been in one you can't imagine the smell and conditions that the birds live in. 

Coming in contact with them over the years convinced me to never buy chicken from super markets or restaurants anymore. I don't know what they have to feed them to keep them alive in those houses, but I'm pretty sure I don't want it.

We are lucky enough that we can raise our own chickens for meat and eggs. It's a good thing since I really like both eggs and fried chicken. :happy:

I have no answer for how chicken or hog warehouses or cattle feedlots could be changed and still supply the cheap food people are used to, But I'll do everything I can to supply my family with food I raise myself.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I also hate the term "factory farm". It's meaningless except to show contempt and be derogatory.

Everyone likes to think that the "small family farm" provides the most "humane" treatment of their animals. But it isn't that simple. 

We have a flock of chickens. They get to free range, the only fences on our place are barbed wire so they can go where they want. At night they are secured inside a coop. Layer feed and fresh water available at all times. And we don't kill off the old hens, they get to live out their lifespan. That's chicken shangri-la, right? No, not necessarily. 

We've had frostbitten combs, frozen feet and even had birds die on exceptionally cold nights. Then it's 100 degrees and humid in the summer and the birds are panting, you can see they are suffering from the heat. Meanwhile those hens in the "factory farm" egg battery are climate controlled, never too hot or too cold.

Then there are predators. We've lost birds to chicken hawks, dogs, and unknown predators over the years. People post on here all the time about the varmint that killed their birds. That hen in the egg battery is safe, she'll never get "played to death" by the neighbor's dog or have her head ripped off by a raccoon.

Other hazards, like for some reason our birdbrains like to drink out of the stock tank. 50 feet away, they have their own water that is fresher. But they will fly up and perch on the edge and drink, sometimes they fall in and drown. We lost another one just this week. This happens more often than predators at our place. We've had birds come up limping, have cuts on their feet and legs, get a string from a feed bag wrapped around them, etc. When they free range, they are more likely to get hurt. Also they come in contact with wild birds and the droppings/remains of all kinds of creatures. There is no "bio security" for free range birds.

There is a pecking order and it can be cruel. The lower ranking birds have to stay out of range of the higher ones at all times. They eat last, get the hottest/coldest place to roost, etc. Second class citizens. 

So a lot depends on your definition of "humane". The egg battery hens actually have more comfort, safety and security in some ways over my "little family farm" flock.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> I also hate the term "factory farm". It's meaningless except to show contempt and be derogatory.
> 
> Everyone likes to think that the "small family farm" provides the most "humane" treatment of their animals. But it isn't that simple.
> 
> ...


Awesome analogy. Thanks for putting that thought into words that explain it so well!


----------



## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Over a billion chicken wings will be consumed in the US alone on Sunday (and I know not all wings are, well, wings). Just think on that for a while.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Just something we have to live with. No one really wants factory farms but no one wants to go without food either.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

pancho said:


> Just something we have to live with. No one really wants factory farms but no one wants to go without food either.


I think that is a false equivalence. Cheap food yes, but not no food. There are plenty of places in the US that are under utilized for food production that we would use if it became economically efficient to do so. The way things stand only people who have intrinsic values supporting a different kind of food production bother with a more expensive way of raising food.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

MO Cows, how long do those egg battery hens get to live? Do they ever see sunshine or get to chase a bug? I have seen what happens over time to people that don't get/choose the opportunity to breath fresh air or get a little sunshine. It isn't pretty. 

I think if more people saw what very large scale farming does to get the out put of food that they accomplish more people would be looking for alternatives.

I went grocery shopping today at Walmart. Winter squash that sold for 35 cents a lb. a couple of years ago now sells for 98 cents a lb. My incoming cents/dollars have not tripled in that time. :umno:

I did buy low cost beef products at a local butcher today. For a dollar I fulfilled my suppertime need for protein and shared with old animals that live with us. DH had a little of it but had me pick up a sub for him. 

I am glad that you are able to let your old hens live out their natural lifespans. For a lot of folks that would just not be a financial option. But I am happy that yours get that opportunity...


----------



## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

The bees are dying, butterflies are nearly gone, our youngest and oldest are plagued by mental disease and this is on the rise, Parkinson's disease is hitting more and more in the prime of their life, antibiotics must continually be stronger in order to work and cancer cases are increasing. We consume air, food and water. Arguably, pollution in the air and water has been decreased in the last 40 years. Factory farming has traditionally applied to animals. Plant "factory" farming must also be considered. Definitive answers? don't have them. I'll be long gone when awareness arrives.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Pollution of some types have been reduced only to be replaced by pollution of other types. I see where they are going to stop using micro beads in cosmetics. Because an authority said we had to put our children in flame retardant clothes all folks have some of those chemicals in their blood streams. To what effect? I am in my 60's and came from a farming community. I saw no examples of autism in my community and didn't start hearing about it until I read the book Noah. Autism may have many causes but it was not in my immediate community in the 50's, 60's or 70's. 

I speculate that if the citizens of Greece knew the effects of drinking from lead vessels they would have chosen pottery or wood...


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Does a chicken have enough intellect to know what it is missing in life? I don't think so. If they see a bug they will instinctively chase it, but if they never see it...they don't miss it.

Those of us who produce our own eggs are very fortunate to be able to do so. The quality of the eggs is better and it is very gratifying to have a happy flock. But the millions and millions of people in New York, LA, Chicago, Atlanta and so on, they need eggs too and our happy little backyard methods just don't get the job done.


----------



## Shore Farming (Jan 9, 2014)

I grew up on a chicken farm in an area where chicken farming was very common. Our two 365 ft chicken houses would be filled with fresh clean wood shavings, feed and water containers were placed around each large, round propane stove hood - for heat. Biddies would arrive in small boxes hand carried by people from the chicken company and gently placed under each hood - with temps about 90 degrees. The house looked empty with the exception of the little ones. As they grow, water troughs replaced hand watering. They are cleaned daily from wood shavings. Large feed troughs run on both sides of the house, carried by a chain from the central feed room. The sides of the house have fans and curtains to keep these chickens at the perfect temperature all the time. Amazingly, there are even bugs to chase and plenty of room for a chicken to be a chicken. The chickens are hand caught and put into cages for transportation to a slaughter plant. You can bet it is done humanely or the state, and all of its regulations would not allow it. After this, the chicken house is empty - and by the time a bobcat removes the chicken manure - yes it stinks. This goes on the fields, the house is washed and scrubbed, pine shavings delivered and the cycle repeats. We now raise pasture raised chickens but believe there is no way to feed our country by growing pasture raised chickens in bulk. It would be great if we could, but we aren't ready for it yet. I am glad there are commercial chicken operations to feed our country. Many cannot afford to buy pasture raised chicken and eggs. I think more people should visit one of those long chicken houses owned by people who are growing for one of the large quality companies. You wouldn't think it is so 'inhumane'.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Propaganda houses like PETA are going to pick out the worst of the worst to show us. Stinky nosy places cling in our memories while nice places we drive by without knowing what is in them. I don't think the average non farmer has any clue what a typical operation looks like.


----------



## jedoud (Jan 21, 2015)

Well what are the alternatives to factory farms. For one if they can not get the price they want, the factory farms will fail, issue solved. If there were no factory farms then the millions and billions of people would not have a ready source of food obtainable through NRC. The starving in the world would change dramatically, and it would not just be in third world nations.

What is the end of that, global famine, it has occurred in the past, and it is usually followed quickly with global pandemic, and then death of large parts of the population. The real question is, if not factory farms than what, the answer is self correcting, at some point the population would match production, no matter the lack or not of birth control, or medical care, all this would be moot.

Still the other side of "factory farms" is the waste management, animal welfare (is there really such a thing), and poisoning of our planet (or at least contributing to it). Again the answer is self correcting. As with all things the earth is self correcting.

We have our little farm and buy very little from the stores, so we are not contributing to the society the way we should. We sell some stuff, so we can make our basic payments of taxes and such, and now we have to afford health care because the insurance companies now have a government backed mandate to provide insurance, just like car insurance, you want to drive a car, you have to have insurance (even if you have never needed it), and now the same for other insurance, how long before they will require other types of government backed extortion schemes (insurance). Still all of this too is self correcting, maybe not today, but at some point, even the economy is self correcting, just not sure I would want to see the correction.

In the past we used wars to correct economic and social injustice (or so they say), perhaps that is solution again, hmm. Are "factory farms" good, bad or indifferent? Do they help feed the surplus population of the world, that is their justification, although I think Purdue and others certainly seem to profit quite well from that ruse. The safe answer is they are a necessary evil, so to speak, but truth is they are an engineered disaster. In the end they will fail, and we will fail, and at some point whoever survives will start over as they always have, and find out far too late lessons of those that came before, so the process will happen over and over, like some cruel game.

Myself, I think they are fine, given they still allow me to opt out. If I am required to buy my food rather than grow and raise my food, well then that would be an entirely different scenario, and I do not think it would be pleasant for anyone.


----------



## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

I'm not at all convinced that the cumulative environmental impact, or animal welfare, of 1000 backyard 40 bird flocks with 1000 different masters would be any less than one 40,000 barn with one professional farmer making the decisions. In fact I'm convinced it's the opposite


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There are good factories and bad factories.

We have factories where all the workers are treated well with good working conditions and there are factories that are sweat shops. This happens with farming as well.

Nothing wrong with a well run factory farm.


----------



## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

light rain said:


> I've heard repeatedly we have to keep increasing our farm output to feed the "booming populations of the world". Whether its chicken, pigs, corn, soy etc maybe the booming populations should slow down on the booming.
> 
> If we pollute our own waters and deplete the soil and expose our own children to toxic chemicals to support the countries that grow past their abilities to feed and shelter themselves, is that wise? I am trying to buy more locally grown food products. I eat factory raised foods as does my DH. Each year we'll try to grow more and buy more locally.
> 
> The world needs to take an honest look at what they can do to feed themselves and that also means looking at reproduction rates... Many of the poorest and chronically hungry populations have 4 or more children, often without the stability of both a husband and wife committed to seeing the children reaching adulthood. OK I'll get off the :soap:.


Totally agree! When I was living in CA I had an epiphany. I saw a chicken farm and it wasn't pretty. I got to taste organic items for the first time and it was amazing. I started really thinking what I was putting in my body and decided to make a change that day. And I did. I reduced our consumption of food from the major players. I joined a CSA out there and shopped the farmer markets and yes, I went to their farms and ensured I was getting organic - not re-sold items. I researched and researched. It was so easy to eat that way out there, as items are so plentiful and demand is high.

One of my concerns were eggs, as we eat low carb and a lot of eggs. As luck (or not) would have it, a lifestyle change - divorce- forced me to downsize and leave $$ California, a move I hated to make but financially needed to for the benefit of my children. So we packed up, left our paradise and moved here. I bought a tiny home I could afford in the school district I wanted, and scrimped and saved like a maniac, finally moving to where I am now, still a small home but a large yard, and _*finally *_allowed to HAVE a garden and HAVE chickens - arriving in a few months. I've made huge sacrifices but I've made these choices for me and my family alone. Yes, I care about the world but my first and foremost concern is for myself and my family. I cut back in other areas to make sure I have enough money to buy the items I want because they are more expensive. I will produce as much as I can to feed us, donate the extra, shop local and support the small farms and producers who I feel treat their animals in ways I find appropriate. I've always said, I vote with my wallet. I know I'm not alone as I see the explosion in organic items, sometimes only for profit but still..I think the people have spoken. Lest anyone thinks negatively of me here, I have researched and done more groundwork and homework than I can accurately explain here. I'm 100% commited to raising my kids with the best possible start, building blocks that they will carry with them for the rest of the life. I know some things I cannot control, environmental, etc, but I'll be darned if I won't do my best to make sure I give them a good start healthwise.


----------



## Swanny (Oct 20, 2014)

This is one of those topics that has as much to do with opinion and ones own experience as it does agricultural or environmental science or economics. Way too many variables involved. That said, i would offer up the point that remeber large cafo operations definately do not run in a vacuum. Large production of grain comes from somewhere and all that waste needs to go somewhere. Its not just the cafo footprint but everything else going into it. Also, gmo foods from monsanto etc. are defended as feeding the world but threaten food security from all of us. Something is wrong when farmers are getting locked up or fined for seeds in their field they didnt plant. people dont need to eat the amount of meat we do as a country. And we should probably be eating more herbivores than omnivores. Anybody who wants to learn more should consult gene logsdons work or even joel salatin. I know they have a very strong small farm slant, but there is alot of economic and environmentally feasible reasons in there from guys who actually farm. In the end i agree its about choice. I want to be able to run my 5 acres the way i want. Economically and environmentally sensible as i can. But i also have the financial means to feed my kids expensive meat, fruits and vegetables off my land.


----------



## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

Great post Swanny and welcome.


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

We have raised our own "meat birds" (which are a factory-type bird) in the past. Last year I almost was going to do it again but did not since we could not afford it (costs more per pound than store bought). But after a cancer scare just recently, I think I will find a way to afford it, or at least contract to buy some true free range chickens. I am now committed to quality food, and that could, in the long run save on things like extended hospital stays and expensive treatments.

So in comment to the OP, I am in favor of freedom. Allow high production farming with reasonable limits. Allow city and suburb dwellers to raise their own poultry and smaller animals for their own use.


----------



## SmokeEater2 (Jan 11, 2010)

DaleK said:


> I'm not at all convinced that the cumulative environmental impact, or animal welfare, of 1000 backyard 40 bird flocks with 1000 different masters would be any less than one 40,000 barn with one professional farmer making the decisions. In fact I'm convinced it's the opposite


"one professional farmer making the decisions." I absolutely agree with that statement.

The only problem is the farmer is not allowed to make any decisions in most of the Turkey/chicken houses here.

I don't know how it is in other parts of the country but here, Tyson Foods rules over almost all of them.

The farmer signs an exclusive contract with Tyson and they supply the chicks/poults, The feed, The medication and a schedule. 

The farmers job is to house the product and feed and medicate on schedule. At the appointed time Tyson trucks arrive and haul the product to processing plants and the farmer is paid the contracted amount by Tyson.

If they have followed the rules and Tyson is pleased they will receive another delivery of chicks and the cycle repeats. If Tyson is not pleased they don't get the next delivery of chicks but they are still bound by contract.

An independent farmer who does not sign with Tyson has a hard time finding a market for his chicks. At one time Puritan's Pride had a processing plant in Arkansas and didn't require a contract but I don't know if that's still the case or not.

Currently I don't know of any large poultry operations in my area that are not under contract to Tyson. 

When I was a kid in the 70's and the first turkey houses were built in my area the farmer DID make all the decisions, and the houses were not nearly as crowded and the birds were moved out into fenced fields at different times so the houses could be cleaned out, And then they were moved back in.

The houses also had big screened openings on the sides that could be opened for ventilation and light.

There is a HUGE difference in the way the houses smelled then and the way they smell now. The families that raised them had a personal interest in the health of their birds and took very good care of them.

I do realize that that time is long gone and that things are different now, But I do wish that farmers had some control over the way they raise their birds.


----------



## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

^ Yes, funny, I was just reading an article yesterday in Mother Earth News mag - I think it was the most recent issue at the library. It was all about Tyson. It was heartbreaking. I gave up eating their brand long ago.

It's a good read, rather long but worth it if you have the time. http://www.motherearthnews.com/natu...son-foods-kills-rural-towns-zm0z14djzmat.aspx


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

DaleK said:


> I'm not at all convinced that the cumulative environmental impact, or animal welfare, of 1000 backyard 40 bird flocks with 1000 different masters would be any less than one 40,000 barn with one professional farmer making the decisions. In fact I'm convinced it's the opposite


Specialization becomes a problem, which tends to happen on larger scale farms. On my little place my garden is fertilized with animal manure, and animal feed is produced from my garden. Very little nitrogenous waste gets into the ground water, and what does is dilute enough that local bacteria can process it. Even the processing waste is composted on site. In a specialized farming situation farmer A buys petroleum based fertilizer to feed his corn, sells it to farmer B that feeds corn to his chicks, then has a huge concentrated waste problem, only made worse by the latest safety laws that limit how and when that waste could be used in a useful manner. Then the birds go to processor C. We get some gains at the processor because they can make useful products from feather, bone, and guts, but they still have a large waste water steam. Now there are handling systems in place for that waste, but they require energy to run and are at risk for containment failure before processing is complete.


----------



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

dlskidmore said:


> Just more space per bird is the best immunity boost they can get. More bedding per bird means fresher air, more air to sweep away airborne disease particles, less frequently encountering fresh manure of other birds, etc... This is a major cost though to the farmers.


Space is a very important requirement too, but there are other things that add to immunity boost. Just like in a car, a little improvement here and there add to the overall efficiency.



SmokeEater2 said:


> Here in Arkansas we have lots of chicken and turkey CAFO operations. The English language can't come close to describing the eye watering stench of those things...
> 
> I have no answer for how chicken or hog warehouses or cattle feedlots could be changed and still supply the cheap food people are used to, But I'll do everything I can to supply my family with food I raise myself.


Hmm... Is their litter wet or what? I wonder what will be causing the serious stench you described. Poultry pens normally have a peculiar smell and some people might call that "stench". 



billinwv said:


> The bees are dying, butterflies are nearly gone, our youngest and oldest are plagued by mental disease and this is on the rise, Parkinson's disease is hitting more and more in the prime of their life, antibiotics must continually be stronger in order to work and cancer cases are increasing. We consume air, food and water. Arguably, pollution in the air and water has been decreased in the last 40 years. Factory farming has traditionally applied to animals. Plant "factory" farming must also be considered. Definitive answers? don't have them. I'll be long gone when awareness arrives.


I once read somewhere that in China, some economic trees were being hand pollinated because there was not enough bees. We should seriously look into the chemicals we use.



MO_cows said:


> Does a chicken have enough intellect to know what it is missing in life? I don't think so. If they see a bug they will instinctively chase it, but if they never see it...they don't miss it.
> 
> Those of us who produce our own eggs are very fortunate to be able to do so. The quality of the eggs is better and it is very gratifying to have a happy flock. But the millions and millions of people in New York, LA, Chicago, Atlanta and so on, they need eggs too and our happy little backyard methods just don't get the job done.


An important question I'll like answered is "how many people are willing to keep livestock in their backyard?". Some people hate the crow of a cock but say nothing about the bark of a dog.



dlskidmore said:


> Propaganda houses like PETA are going to pick out the worst of the worst to show us. Stinky nosy places cling in our memories while nice places we drive by without knowing what is in them. I don't think the average non farmer has any clue what a typical operation looks like.


I suspect that also.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I think that we as food-producers have a far greater moral obligation to produce our food in a sustainable manner, that does not create further problems for the inhabitants of our world.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Poultryguy said:


> An important question I'll like answered is "how many people are willing to keep livestock in their backyard?". Some people hate the crow of a cock but say nothing about the bark of a dog.


That is the crux of the issue in my opinion. If everybody with a quarter acre keep a garden and some chickens, we wouldn't need as much intensive farming.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Dlskidmore, I agree with what you say for the USA. When you look at other cultures that have populated past their ability and the ecosystem to support them do you think that suggestion is applicable? 

When you look at China with their massive poultry industry, remember, this is where bird flu originates yearly. Could it be that the intensive, concentrated poultry production sparks these deadly outbreaks...


----------



## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

dlskidmore said:


> That is the crux of the issue in my opinion. If everybody with a quarter acre keep a garden and some chickens, we wouldn't need as much intensive farming.


We have about .75 acre but only allowed 5 hens, no roosters and even that took a lot of letter writing, pleading and patience. Plus there's restrictions regarding outlots. I got turned down 3 times for my permit but kept coming back, refusing to give in. . The cities themselves can be rather difficult but I understand their reluctance. Very few people keep chickens-too much work maybe? None of my friends have them nor want them. They think they all crow.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

2dogs-mom said:


> ...only allowed 5 hens...


Yeah, but if everyone wanted to do it, the law would be changed. We're a minority and therefore the laws are not written to suit us.


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2015)

This thread is a wonderful example of how a hot topic issue can be discussed in a civil manner. You guys are great!


----------



## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

dlskidmore said:


> Yeah, but if everyone wanted to do it, the law would be changed. We're a minority and therefore the laws are not written to suit us.


Oh I agree -education is key. These are city folk we are talking about , so far removed from the food chain. . Hopefully more cities will follow suit but every city is so different. The one next me allows more chickens but the one on the other side allows none. Oh well I'll be happy with my little flock. It'll be good practice so when I move someday I can decide if I can handle more!!


----------



## Swanny (Oct 20, 2014)

From an economic and environmental standpoint, i think the future is not going to be just smaller specialized farms, but diversified farms. Small farms all around that produce livestock, vegetables, fruit etc. they will use as much as they can on site not even because they are environmental super stars but because its economically required. Also, there are things lost in large operations that small ones concentrate on. I have a lot of weeds in my small orchard and bordering my small woodlot. Those weeds are stinging nettle, comfrey etc. this weed saves me money. My birds eat it. My rabbits eat it. The fallen fruit feeds geese and chickens. The manure is fertilizer and compost tea that i spray on trees. No fungicides or insecticides required. In a diversified farm the collapse of one product is not doom. Others will be ok. This doesnt have to be everyone. I know that there is alot that needs to be considered but one thing im sure of. If the govt ever stops subsidising big ag then it is a whole new game. That chicken is only cheap because grain is subsidized. It may be cheap at the checkout but that doesnt take into consideration the tax dollars that you and i pay to make it cheap.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Here is a point to consider. In the past food has been relatively cheap for Americans. With our higher economic level we didn't have to compete on purchasing food. Now as other countries gain in financial standing we will be competing with our dollars to buy our staples. Yep, instead of us praying for the starving children in China, which I did , maybe they'll be praying for us.

So if the taxpayer is subsidizing the growing of foods that get shipped to other countries isn't that the same situation that the people with the tea incident proclaimed "taxation without representation" dealt with? :shrug:


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> That is the crux of the issue in my opinion. If everybody with a quarter acre keep a garden and some chickens, we wouldn't need as much intensive farming.


I have found that most people just have no ambition to raise their own food. There are so many people that have never been truly hungry. That would surely be a motivator to grow your own. I have no problem selling 100 broilers every year & hope to do 200 this year. A picture of chickens out in the grass posted on craigslist gets them gone quick!


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Wendy said:


> I have found that most people just have no ambition to raise their own food. There are so many people that have never been truly hungry. That would surely be a motivator to grow your own. I have no problem selling 100 broilers every year & hope to do 200 this year. A picture of chickens out in the grass posted on craigslist gets them gone quick!


If hunger is the motivator than growing your own food is not the right answer. You can buy it cheaper.

Better nutrition would be a better motivator.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The future is more large factory farms and very few small farms. The population is growing and looks like it will continue to do so. More people=more food=less land available for farming.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> If hunger is the motivator than growing your own food is not the right answer. You can buy it cheaper.


Actually, as the price of groceries continues to rise, it may motivate people to grow their own because they will not be able to afford it even at the grocery store, therefore they might get a little hungry once in awhile.

Also, for the most part, the beef & pork we buy locally on the hoof is quite bit cheaper. The broilers I raise & butcher myself end up cheaper, actually free, once I sell half of them to others. The $$ amount I spend on seeds for the garden & my supplies in canning them is also cheaper. So, it is not actually cheaper all the time to buy it at the store & is getting worse everyday.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Actually, as the price of groceries continues to rise, it may motivate people to grow their own because they will not be able to afford it even at the grocery store, therefore they might get a little hungry once in awhile.
> 
> Also, for the most part, the beef & pork we buy locally on the hoof is quite bit cheaper. The broilers I raise & butcher myself end up cheaper, actually free, once I sell half of them to others. The $$ amount I spend on seeds for the garden & my supplies in canning them is also cheaper. So, it is not actually cheaper all the time to buy it at the store & is getting worse everyday.


How is the majority of the population going to raise meat in their back yard? Or grow enough vegtables in their apartments economically and still work and pay for their homes. They pay someone else for food that can be raised cheaper because of scale. This has been the case for thousands of years. Don't think it will change now. In fact it will only increase. The poor will be fed by large farmers.

This idolized view of the world where the majority of the population can live of their land has not been the reality since the hunter gathers and is not a possibility now.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

There are apartment buildings large enough and with a large enough population to have their own zip code. These people do not have a choice of raising any plants or animals. Someone has to raise the food for them to buy.


----------



## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

I wonder about stress hormones released from mishandled animals prior to slaughter. Have you seen the videos of broilers being vacuumed into crates for shipping? Stress hormones have been proven to lead to weight gain. Things are bad the body stocks up. Could "fight or flight" hormones in our meat cause humans to pack on the pounds? 
On the farm killing is usually done without much handling, pig shot while having a bite to eat. Chickens have to be caught, but nothing like commercial butchering where they are caught, transported, and hung by a leg for who knows how long before being killed. This would be a good study for the MIT experts.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I realize that everyone can't grow their own food, I never said they could. What I was trying to get at is a lot, I mean a lot of people could if they wanted too, they just don't want too. Until they can't afford to buy it at the store or have something other reason to motivate them, they won't even try. A lot of people are just too lazy. 

For that reason, factory farms should not be put down or constantly criticized. Without them, a lot of people would starve. It takes huge egg layer operations, & cattle & hog feed lots to feed everyone. There is just no way small farms could feed everyone, no matter how hard they tried. 

For the people that do care, they grow their own or buy locally from people that do grow their own.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> This would be a good study for the MIT experts.


My son is there, I'll tell him to do that!


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

It's great how much interest there is in backyard flocks again. This was still common into the 40s, 50s, not just rural but in smaller towns too. My dad remembers his grandma having a backyard flock even after she moved to town. Many, many cities and towns have updated their regulations to allow backyard chickens again, because the citizens demanded it. This is a trend we should be celebrating, not moaning and wringing our hands because high production farms are still in business. A lot of people have started paying attention to where their food comes from and how it is raised. So there is more and more self-production and smaller scale local production. Meanwhile the big operations are still feeding the masses, people have choices, although limited by their means of course. We have it all, what are we complaining about?


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

There is a man in Milwaukee named Will Allen who is promoting gardening in the inner city on quite a large scale. So even for folks living in apartments there are ways to raise your own vegetables. Also in Chicago and one bigger cities in northern WI folks are converting manufacturing bldgs. into indoor growing centers. 

There are more options to explore with aquaculture. Locally I have bought tilapia raised in tanks and recently bought trout raised in tanks and a converted silo. Both made excellent eating. 

When our children were little we rented a garden plot and grew our own vegetables. Before that when DH was still in the service we had a garden plot down by the antenna field and had lots of tomatoes, peppers and other veggies. If people want to garden or raise meat or fish they have to explore the possibilities. If they want to sit and watch tv or be on the computer that is their right. But it won't assure them meals or jars in the pantry. 

If there ever is a major disruption with our food supplies it would be better for people to have some knowledge on how to raise enough food to feed themselves and their families. This same philosophy applies to foreign countries that we and Canada ship so much grain and other food items. If there is a disruption they will not have the experience and systems in place to be self-sufficient. Such encompassing dependency could be a huge opportunity for power grabs. What would any of us agree to in order to prevent our children from starvation?


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Wendy said:


> I realize that everyone can't grow their own food, I never said they could. What I was trying to get at is a lot, I mean a lot of people could if they wanted too, they just don't want too. Until they can't afford to buy it at the store or have something other reason to motivate them, they won't even try. A lot of people are just too lazy.
> 
> For that reason, factory farms should not be put down or constantly criticized. Without them, a lot of people would starve. It takes huge egg layer operations, & cattle & hog feed lots to feed everyone. There is just no way small farms could feed everyone, no matter how hard they tried.
> 
> For the people that do care, they grow their own or buy locally from people that do grow their own.


Even many farmers around me, in fact most, have limited gardens, few animals, and buy their food from the store. I find this mind boggling.

A great book my dad had from the 1940's, IMPLORES that a farm without some hens, a huge garden, and hogs and beef, well, it is actually not a farm at all. Ironic, huh?


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I have several Mexicans that come from Cincinnati to buy my old laying hens. I seriously can't keep enough here. I make great money on them. They will not take the Cornish cross I raise. So, every year I get new layers & buy any old layers from people that advertise & then re-sell them to make a nice little profit. I make pretty good money on the Cornish cross I raise every year. I also sell eggs. I just sold 10 last night & 4 last weekend. They wanted more, but I just don't have enough heavy ones right now. I am going to order my Cornish cross for about March delivery. Along with my order I can get 25 free chicks for every 50 I order. So, I will get the free ones & raise them up to sell to the Mexicans that want the layer breeds. Mine all free range so I have little cost in them. My broilers are raised in tractors. 

I plan on doing some ducks again this year & also some turkeys. Once you build up a customer base, word of mouth is all you need.


----------



## SmokeEater2 (Jan 11, 2010)

You're absolutely right about word of mouth and customer base Wendy.

I sell out of honey every year as soon as it's ready. The people that buy from me have told friends and family and I could sell more if I had it. Most of them buy eggs from me too.


----------



## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

light rain said:


> Such encompassing dependency could be a huge opportunity for power grabs. What would any of us agree to in order to prevent our children from starvation?


Somewhat of a thread drift, but last night my daughter (13) and I were talking about self-sufficiency, gardening, chickens, aquaponics..the whole shebang and how it was good to have these skills both for now and in the future in case of a power outage or who knows what. She looked at me and said, "but mom, if there's an apocylapse, I don't want to be the only one alive." I told her jokingly that there would be zombies to keep her company - that was the good news. The bad news is that they would find her tasty and wholesome because she eats very well and healthfully, so she better learn how to run fast! 

She looked me and deadpanned 'I don't have to run fast, I only have to run faster than xxxx (her brother). :happy2:


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Oh no! She's been watching that commercial that has the wild boar...


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> Even many farmers around me, in fact most, have limited gardens, few animals, and buy their food from the store. I find this mind boggling.


I can see that.

Around here, I think it swings the other way.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

ET1 SS said:


> I can see that.
> 
> Around here, I think it swings the other way.


As the younger guys take over from pa, they tend to direct all their attention to raising crops. So they end up dropping the few cows their dads had. Hardly anyone has milked cows for domestic use since the 1970's around here. Hens for eggs? Rare as their teeth. Chickens for meat, not quite as rare, but still rare.

It is too bad, it is such a wasted resource! Most of the younger guys think they do not have the 15 minutes a day to care for a few critters. Tis a shame!


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I understand how farmers stop the small garden and cows and chickens. They can barter very easy with other farmers.

The cattle guy gets feed and provides back beef. The economics of the cattle guy raising a couple more and getting grain or grass from the guy that farms that for a living just makes economic sense.

Specialization works at all levels.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Wlover said:


> I understand how farmers stop the small garden and cows and chickens. They can barter very easy with other farmers.
> 
> The cattle guy gets feed and provides back beef. The economics of the cattle guy raising a couple more and getting grain or grass from the guy that farms that for a living just makes economic sense.
> 
> Specialization works at all levels.


Very little of that goes on here, sadly. I am a wrong generation kind of guy!


----------



## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Factory farming is a rotten term. Although I am worried about the way animals are treated on these farms, it's not just about that. I agree with bilinwv. Not only do we have to think about the animals, we need to consider what is happening to us. Is it because of all the chemical fertilizers/additives that have found their way into our food supply? Whether added directly or fed to the animals we eat? I don't know. I don't have scientific proof either way, but I know what my gut tells me. I raise as much of our food as possible and locally source the rest from area farms where I get to know the farmer and how he farms. I honestly believe we are killing ourselves because we keep trying to feed the world. Now the world is beginning to respond and tell us that they don't want our GMO grains. Nations with people starving won't take our food. Why?

I hope we all find the answer before it's too late.


----------



## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> Nations with people starving won't take our food. Why?


Because they are bullied by other nations.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Sammyd, could you explain? I don't understand what you mean.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

My view is this. If we pushed people to try to grow as much of their own food as possible we would be much better off. It's done on little tenth of an acre lots in the middle of cities and even on balconies and Windows ledges. Now I know it may not support year round but it could help. If more communities had community gardens where those who help could benefit from it we wood be better off. It's not that I'm against factory farming. I'm in a huge chicken factory area with a Perdue factor right below my house. My worry is the quality. They take these chick's from egg to butcher size in only 32 days. That's some serious steroid action there. Not to mention other things pumped into the animals of factory farms.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> My view is this. If we pushed people to try to grow as much of their own food as possible we would be much better off. It's done on little tenth of an acre lots in the middle of cities and even on balconies and Windows ledges. Now I know it may not support year round but it could help. If more communities had community gardens where those who help could benefit from it we wood be better off. It's not that I'm against factory farming. I'm in a huge chicken factory area with a Perdue factor right below my house. My worry is the quality. They take these chick's from egg to butcher size in only 32 days. That's some serious steroid action there. Not to mention other things pumped into the animals of factory farms.


No reason to use steroids with the Cornish X. It would be a waste as they grow fast anyway. Just selective breeding, no steroids.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Vahomesteaders, that can't be right. 32 days? Oh my gosh! When we butchered our roosters years ago they weren't ready until 4 to 5 months. 

If you are correct about the time that is scary IMO.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

light rain said:


> Vahomesteaders, that can't be right. 32 days? Oh my gosh! When we butchered our roosters years ago they weren't ready until 4 to 5 months.
> 
> If you are correct about the time that is scary IMO.


Check out the Cornish X. Other breeds of chickens you would be right. Buy a few of the Cornish X and see for yourself. They will eat themselves to death. Put a few normal heavy breed chicks in the brooder for comparison. If they do not get stepped on by the Cornish X you will see why it doesn't take long to raise them to boiler size.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

pancho said:


> Check out the Cornish X. Other breeds of chickens you would be right. Buy a few of the Cornish X and see for yourself. They will eat themselves to death. Put a few normal heavy breed chicks in the brooder for comparison. If they do not get stepped on by the Cornish X you will see why it doesn't take long to raise them to boiler size.


We have Cornish x chickens. And they do grow big quick. But not that quick.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Pancho, I don't doubt what you say. Is Perdue using the Cornish X for their chickens? I've heard people talk in our area that the X's take about 6 to 8 weeks to finish out. 1 month from hatching to butchering sounds sci fi to me. 

"Eating themselves to death" does not sound like a ringing endorsement to me, but, if Gold'nPlump use these chickens I guess I've been eating them for years.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I raise Cornish cross also. If I gave them access to all the food they wanted they would probably be ready that quick. However, I would lose some due to the health problems it would cause. I restrict feed & also put them in tractors when big enough. I usually start butchering at 6-7 weeks.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> We have Cornish x chickens. And they do grow big quick. But not that quick.



They may be growing them for the Cornish hen market.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

light rain said:


> Pancho, I don't doubt what you say. Is Perdue using the Cornish X for their chickens? I've heard people talk in our area that the X's take about 6 to 8 weeks to finish out. 1 month from hatching to butchering sounds sci fi to me.
> 
> "Eating themselves to death" does not sound like a ringing endorsement to me, but, if Gold'nPlump use these chickens I guess I've been eating them for years.


Almost all boiler houses use the cornish X. Have been for a long time.


----------



## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

At 4 1/2 weeks (32 days) those CornishX are right about 3.5 lb. Mine are the size of supermarket birds at that age. I keep them longer 'til 8 weeks to get BIG dressed birds 7-9 lbs easy in the bag. Most people have never seen an 8 lb chicken...and never will.

I have no problem with "factory" farming if it is done humanely. Most of the broiler operations aren't too bad as long as the buildings have good ventilation. If you've ever grown broilers, you know that they don't require a lot of space. They just want to lay in front of the feeder. 

Some of the hog practices could be improved with more space and better social housing of mothers w/litters and feeders. But there are reasons for some of the confinement - saves litters. Most beef cattle spend most of their lives under decent conditions until their last few feedlot months - I do think dairy should be given some pasture time every day for mental health - but in cold weather, dairy cattle have historically spent most of the winter inside. Battery egg outfits need to give the girls more space, but what are you going to do? Eggs are the cheapest protein out there for really poor people.

Current practices feed a whole lot of people, and changing/improving is going to cost money and production. No easy answers if it means somebody has to go hungry.


----------



## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

light rain said:


> Sammyd, could you explain? I don't understand what you mean.


The EU is a good one for telling African nations that they ca not accept stuff from the US because it may have GMO in it. The EU has placed severe restrictions on food for people as far as GMOs are concerned however they will import GMO stuff for animal feed.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We do not raise Cornish-cross birds, however we have neighbors that do.

They buy day-old chicks and they butcher between 6 and 8 weeks old. They have told me that they get 60% survival rate with their birds. 

I do not know exactly why they lose so many.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

sammyd said:


> The EU is a good one for telling African nations that they ca not accept stuff from the US because it may have GMO in it. The EU has placed severe restrictions on food for people as far as GMOs are concerned however they will import GMO stuff for animal feed.


The silliest thing is, the EU has approved two gm crops for cultivation in Europe. And it has few restrictions on importing gm crops. It restricts growing most gm crops in the continent, but has little concern to import them. Go figure! It has authorized imports of 49 gm crops. They GROW gm corn and gm potatoes! It is all a political joke. They have always been hyper protectionist of their agriculture industry, are the most heavily subsidized place in the western world, and do indeed import and accept gm crops. AND GROW THEM! That they have banned them is a cruel lie. Fake fodder for the anti gm movement. One country, yes ONE country in the entire world has outright banned gm crops. Kenya. And that was actually a mixed up government vote. Look it up.

Not directed at you Sammy D! You just jarred my memory mentioning Europe.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> We do not raise Cornish-cross birds, however we have neighbors that do.
> 
> They buy day-old chicks and they butcher between 6 and 8 weeks old. They have told me that they get 60% survival rate with their birds.
> 
> I do not know exactly why they lose so many.


Some people who buy the Cornish X do not know how to raise them. They try to raise them like they do regular chickens. If you raise them right your losses will be the same as any other breed. I have some I kept back. A few hens that are 4 years old now. Giant hens that lay a giant egg. I have other friends who have used a regular breed rooster on Cornish X hens. If you want big birds they are the ones to get.


----------



## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

ET1 SS said:


> We do not raise Cornish-cross birds, however we have neighbors that do.
> 
> They buy day-old chicks and they butcher between 6 and 8 weeks old. They have told me that they get 60% survival rate with their birds.
> 
> I do not know exactly why they lose so many.


They take some management. Biggest mistake most people make is that they DON'T pull the feed at night. They must have a 12 hour period at night with no feed, and 12 hours during the day with free choice of good hi protein broiler mix. Otherwise, their hearts give out on them because they grow too fast.

Do that and keep them in decent temps, and they should grow like weeds and do well. I rarely lose a bird anymore unless I have a real hot day in the barn, (+90's) and even then, if I catch it and turn on a fan for them, they manage just fine. Those broiler chicks don't come cheap, and after they have a few week's feed into them, they are worth even more. I sure couldn't tolerate a 40% loss.


----------



## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Worst loss rate I had was 15% the first year. Next 2 years it was 0. Since then we run 1-2%. Learned not to keep the feed in front of them all the time. Read somewhere it isn't really their hearts that give out, it's the super full crops cut off their air supply.


----------



## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

Well, I definitely think a pat on the back is in order for PoultryGuy for starting what I think is a very interesting thread. I have enjoyed the varied opinions. I was raised on a farm in southeast Ohio by the smartest and wisest farmer i ever met. Farming is very dear to my heart and I can go off like a cheap pistol when someone criticizes farmers. At the same time, I don't care much for what I call "fake farmers." I guess that would be the equivalent to factory farmers. I don't like them because I believe they give farmers and the industry as a whole a bad name. I also realize that the small farm doesn't guarantee proper treatment of animals. Reuben Holiday the tongue tied, narcoleptic farmer next to us when I grew up was one of those. Dad would get so fired up at the poor conditions Reuben kept his animals in. But that's another story.
I really did not know what a factory farm was until the housing market crashed. I was laid off so I decided to become a long haul trucker. That gave me a few opportunities to pickup or deliver at a few of these farms. It is unfathomable some of the conditions I saw animals being kept in. I did visit one large feed yard in Bovina, TX and was very impressed with how large yet clean and efficiently it was ran. Chicken houses in Arkansas, not so much. A dairy in California, deplorable. That dairy was almost like a freak show with deformed cattle, or open sores. I never drank milk on thw west coast after that.
Farmer Dale and I have had a go round or two over GMO stuff and such. Farmer Dale, don't take it personally if I wind you up a little. I love the fact that you are so passionate about what you do. I would venture to say that it seems like Dale has a size able operation but from everything I see on this forum, I'm betting he runs a clean and efficient operation that keeps up with modern times. That's how my Dad was. I guess I'm saying that so much depends on the person running the operation. When a corporation runs the operation, who is going to be the passionate one who makes sure things are done "decently and in order." A corporation has other priorities. Although a farm has to be ran as a business because that's what it is, a corporation doesn't have compassion. A farmer has compassion and sometimes will be faced with a decision that may not make the most business sense but is the right thing to do. That goes the other way, just because someone thinks they are a farmer doesn't mean that they have ethics. I've known a couple fellows that would send cattle to market that should not have because of sickness. That was what made them money but was not ethical. 
I agree with Wendy that the current environment with the economy and other factors will lead more people to raise their own food. But, land costs and other factors will keep that number low. Factors such as city folk that don't understand that you have to get out of bed no matter how cold and feed the animals and give them water. People today are very stupid. Had a conversation with a lady last week. She doesn't think we should eat bacon because it is the same as torture to cut the bacon off of the pigs. And farmers cut that bacon off of the pigs several times a year. What??? Oh my! She did not understand that you kill a pig to get the bacon. You just slice it off of them. Oh my my my. She absolutely went into some kind of brain spasm when I told her you kill the pig to get bacon. She's probably in a rubber room by now. Anyhoo, I want to hear more opinions on this.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

Trim the Bacon from the pig......wow, just wow....
Just when you thought people couldn't get any dumber


----------



## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

Nosedirt, can you send me some of those pig seeds, it would be great to harvest bacon several times a year.


----------



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

Vahomesteaders said:


> My view is this. If we pushed people to try to grow as much of their own food as possible we would be much better off. It's done on little tenth of an acre lots in the middle of cities and even on balconies and Windows ledges. Now I know it may not support year round but it could help. If more communities had community gardens where those who help could benefit from it we wood be better off. It's not that I'm against factory farming. I'm in a huge chicken factory area with a Perdue factor right below my house. My worry is the quality. They take these chick's from egg to butcher size in only 32 days. That's some serious steroid action there. Not to mention other things pumped into the animals of factory farms.




They don't use steriods in animals, it's the genetics that makes broilers to grow fast, just like you have goats and cows that are good and poor milk producers.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Poultryguy, do they use continuous low levels of antibiotics to make them grow or this not practiced?


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Nosedirt: LOL. A big, but sad, LOL. Slicing the bacon off the pig! Oh my aching sides. So funny, but oh, so sad. Wow. 

You made some great points there regarding WHO is running the farm. The family running it has a very strong interest to keep things in good shape, or they are bankrupt. A corporate style farm, just does not have the need to care about every detail, especially if not run by a farmer.

I need to clarify as well. There are many INCORPORATED farms, that are still family farms. And then there are CORPORATE farms run by a non farming group or company.

A couple hours from me, there is a farm that was running 60 000 acres of crops. They recently wen bankrupt, because while a family farm guy will trim the fat and work extra hours to feed his family and stay in business, the managers and workers on these farms simply have no connection in the same way.

Gotta run. Need to go pull some eggs from my hens, and slice a few lamb chops off my wethers....


----------



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

@Light rain, are they still using it? I've once read about moves to ban it. It's a very dangerous practice - antibiotic resistance.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Poultryguy said:


> @Light rain, are they still using it? I've once read about moves to ban it. It's a very dangerous practice - antibiotic resistance.


From what I can tell, the US may still use it. In Canada it is not used. So then you have the situation where regulations are different in different countries, and so painting with the same brush gets icky as well.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

They do in fact use antibiotics that contain a growth hormone. The fda says it's a naturally enhanced chemical already contained in the chicken.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Soy contains estrogen and is used as Hormone Replacement Therapy [HRT] among some perimenopausal ladies. Soy is also included in chicken feed, both as a protein source and for it's HRT benefits [increasing the frequency of ovulation].

It is not seen as an 'added' hormone.

Soy has enough estrogen that it has been shown to effect girls reaching their 'blossom' at younger ages, as well as effecting male sterility in our culture.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Related: http://loostales.blogspot.com/2015/02/nothing-humane-about-animal-agriculture.html


----------



## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Vahomesteaders said:


> ...... They take these chick's from egg to butcher size in only 32 days. That's some serious steroid action there. Not to mention other things pumped into the animals of factory farms.


*
THERE ARE NO, NONE, NOT AN OUNCE, ZIP, NIL, NADA STEROIDS OR HOMONES USED IN POULTRY OR PORK PRODUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!*

Sorry for bolding but this is a FACT and not subject to one's opinion on what happens in commercial farms in the USA.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Lazy J said:


> *
> THERE ARE NO, NONE, NOT AN OUNCE, ZIP, NIL, NADA STEROIDS OR HOMONES USED IN POULTRY OR PORK PRODUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Sorry for bolding but this is a FACT and not subject to one's opinion on what happens in commercial farms in the USA.


Is not as simple as you think. Trenbolone acetate and zeranol are approved by the fda for use in feed as growth hormones for natural development according to them. I know for a fact without a doubt that the pelletized version is sold in a poultry mix. Why? Because a friend was given about 800lbs left over from a comercial operation and he gave us some. And its listed right on the bag. So either regulations are laxed or the truth is being fudged to people.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Not to mention the large amounts of "natural hormones" they pump into them such as progesterone and testosterone along with the antibiotics.


----------



## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Is not as simple as you think. Trenbolone acetate and zeranol are approved by the fda for use in feed as growth hormones for natural development according to them. I know for a fact without a doubt that the pelletized version is sold in a poultry mix. Why? Because a friend was given about 800lbs left over from a comercial operation and he gave us some. And its listed right on the bag. So either regulations are laxed or the truth is being fudged to people.


Sorry, but you are wrong! Trenbolone Acetate is not approved for use in poultry. In fact I don't believe there is a feed grade form of this product, it is used as an implant in some cattle production schemes.

I will state it again, there are NOT steroids or hormones fed to pigs or chickens in the USA.


----------



## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Not to mention the large amounts of "natural hormones" they pump into them such as progesterone and testosterone along with the antibiotics.


Not in pigs or chickens.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have laying hens. 

The feed I buy is available in medicated and non-medicated options, and it is high in soy [estrogen] content.


----------



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

What I learnt from this link: http://www.thepoultrysite.com/artic...eive-growth-hormones-so-why-all-the-confusion 

Growth hormones won't be effective when given to poultry orally, unless it is injected but injecting 20k birds is not practical.

Growth hormones are given to beef cattle, but not to dairy cattle, veal calf, pig or poultry.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

ET1 SS said:


> I have laying hens.
> 
> The feed I buy is available in medicated and non-medicated options, and it is high in soy [estrogen] content.


Medicated chicken feed usually has anti coccidia medicine in it, not growth hormones.

If you use a medicated feed know what you are medicating for and why.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

dlskidmore said:


> Medicated chicken feed usually has anti coccidia medicine in it, not growth hormones.
> 
> If you use a medicated feed know what you are medicating for and why.


I do not think I said anything about 'growth' hormones being added to feed.

I am aware of antibiotics being added to feed that is already high in estrogen.

If you use feed you should know what is in it.


----------



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Anti coccidia meds are not antibiotics. Coccidia is a protozoa, not a bacterium. They limit the uptake of vitamin B by the protozoa (and the chick) which limits protozoa growth. If you actually need to kill protozoa that is a seperate medication, not the one in the feed.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

dlskidmore said:


> Anti coccidia meds are not antibiotics. Coccidia is a protozoa, not a bacterium. They limit the uptake of vitamin B by the protozoa (and the chick) which limits protozoa growth. If you actually need to kill protozoa that is a seperate medication, not the one in the feed.


Okay I stand corrected.

I think in general conversation that any drugs used to control or kill a parasite, is generally called an antibiotic. But I see where the true definition of 'antibiotic' refers to bacteria. Since coccidia is not bacteria, the drugs used to control them are not actually antibiotics. 

It looks like any of these drugs can be used to control these parasites:
Amprolium, ethopabate, Clopidol, meticlorpindol, Decoquinate, Diclazuril, Dinitolmide (zoalene), Halofuginone hydrobromide, Lasalocid sodium, Maduramicin ammonium, Monensin sodium, Narasin, Nicarbazin, Robenidine hydrochloride, Salinomycin sodium, Semduramicin, Sulfadimethoxine + ormetoprim


----------



## Swanny (Oct 20, 2014)

Did they ban arsenicals or is that still in use?


----------



## Poultryguy (Jan 29, 2014)

News sites says they ban most of the arsenic drugs.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

So, is a hatchery a "factory farm"? I'm delighted to be able to browse a catalog or web site, see photos of a wide variety of poultry, descriptions and even videos, place an order for exactly what I want, right down to the sex in most cases, and have any amount from one individual chick, to hundreds, delivered right to my door! If that's considered factory farming then sign me up to the fan club. 

Thread drift - I also noticed that the terminology has been "dumbed down", I guess for the backyard chicken city people. Apparently it was too much to expect them to learn the terminology, so the catalog now says "not sexed", "female" and "male" instead of straight run, pullets and cockerels.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

MO_cows said:


> So, is a hatchery a "factory farm"? I'm delighted to be able to browse a catalog or web site, see photos of a wide variety of poultry, descriptions and even videos, place an order for exactly what I want, right down to the sex in most cases, and have any amount from one individual chick, to hundreds, delivered right to my door! If that's considered factory farming then sign me up to the fan club.


It is a phrase. Like all phrases, if it gets over-used, then someone changes the meaning of the phrase.

Does 'Anti-Biotic' mean only drugs that kill bacteria? Or can it be used for things that kills worms? Or protozoa?

When is a hormone a hormone? Estrogen is a hormone when dealing with humans, it acts as a hormone in both males and females [of all species]. But when used as livestock feed, suddenly we all change our definitions, to make estrogen no longer a hormone. So when is a hormone a hormone? It depends on if the day of the week is a day that ends in 'Y', or not.

If you want antibiotic-free animals, change the meaning of Antibiotic. If you want hormone-free animals, change how you say it.

What makes a 'factory-farm'? Who knows.

When is a puppy-mill a puppy-mill?


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Funny. We just got done Tysons chicken nuggets. Their bag says unlike our competitors we use no hormones or steriods.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Funny. We just got done Tysons chicken nuggets. Their bag says unlike our competitors we use no hormones or steriods.


In 2006, there was a news article I caught about Perdue and Intralytix.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2006-08-19/news/0608190338_1_bacteria-center-for-food-viruses

http://www.intralytix.com/Intral_News.htm

http://washington.chenw.org/bulletins/CHEWAbulletin8-23-06.html

You may find of interest.


----------

