# I got good advice along with my good ammo deal today



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Due to heavy snake populations around here lately I went through about 70 125 gr +P FJHP for my pocket carry .38 Colt Detective because its always in my pocket.

As he showed me the 50 count boxes of 125 gr lead tipped JHP +P Winchesters for $16 a box and I bought three he asked me why I had burned through so many and I told that with the copperheads I have come across I was lucky to achieve a 50% hit rate from 2 to 5 yard distance and I seldom had time to swap to the snake shot and when I did carry the shot loaded S&W 38 also I just felt too weighted down.

When I said I couldn't understand it since I always shoot good on his range even his pop up alley, he told me that his pop up action alley didn't have any two inch target zones that snake squirm across the range.

Maybe during snake season I will load a couple snake shot loads ahead of the mass penetration loads so I don't have to change loads to often.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I would think 2 snake 4 jhp would be in order for your issue , you could also load jhp , snake , jhp , snake, jhp , snake and fire in controlled pairs.

you must be getting a good deal on that 38SPL ammo around here it is 21 dollars a box for lead round nose practice ammo 

self defense ammo seems to run closer to 75 cents or a dollar a round 

buy extra at that price


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Pete,
He also had 25 round short boxes of FJHP with an expansion insert similar to how some used to insert a shotgun pellet as a mushroom expander.

The Hornady short box was almost as expensive as the 50 count box of Winchester but he said the penetrability was about the same as normal round but produced less recoil and might be more appealing to my mother to use in her Taurus featherweight.

I remember those shotgun pellet customized hollow points but the tips of those reduced recoil 125 grain Hornady rounds looked more like a rocket nose cone.

The dealer said the lower recoil was achieved by use of a slower burn powder like what is used in the snake shot cartridges.

I am keeping my carry piece loaded with the two snake shot and then four +P hollows now.

Something that surprised me while we were talking, he mentioned that although the LEO range trainers here advise civilians to use hollow points for stop force and to prevent through and through risk to bystanders, the LEOs in our area still us ball ammo instead.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

that is very interesting that they would use ball ammo

as far as I know all of our area departments are using 9 or 40 mostly Winchester ranger le or black hills


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shrek said:


> the LEOs in our area still us ball ammo instead.


If they do I suspect it's based on cost rather than performance.
I don't know of any agencies that use ball ammo for anything other than training.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If they do I suspect it's based on cost rather than performance.
> I don't know of any agencies that use ball ammo for anything other than training.


I suspect that also but it is sad , it is like saying your officers are not worth 20 dollars a month in the right ammo.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I mentioned what I was told to a deputy sheriff I know and he told me that he knew of the one small town that still requires the ball slug ammo and he said it had something to do with a decades old local department liability and funding policy that the S O is working with the town PD and council to upgrade since although the community has their own officers, they are also under S.O. jurisdiction and they often all respond together.

You may be right in that the small department may not be getting the funding they should, If that is the case I hope they get it corrected because they shouldn't be stuck in the 1970s when criminals are almost 50 years ahead of them.

When he told me that, it got me to wondering how many small towns have problems with their town councils looking out for their city budgets instead of their police departments.

The deputy even said that his department doesn't even use ball ammo to qualify and hasn't for years. They qualify with the same ammo they carry on patrol.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shrek said:


> They qualify with the same ammo they carry on patrol.


I believe that's a standard practice based on what I've heard from various LEO's over the years.
They can practice with most anything, but qualifications have to be with their carry ammo.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

cost may well be part of the reason that many departments are switching back to 9mm from 40 that and training , it was harder for some officers to qualify with 40.

many departments have sold off their shotguns they no longer qualify or carry them at all , each squad has an M4 or two.

I was talking with one officer from a near by city , he feels that getting rid of the shotgun was a big mistake his department kept it as an option and switched to slugs only in the shotguns.
he is an Afgan vet as well as a cop , he said it has been his experience that both here and in Afghanistan people respect a shotgun more than an m4 , even when using expanding ammo that would make a real mess out of you in a hurry , people have some mental thing about shot guns.

when I said , but they should be equally if not more afraid of the 223. he agreed but said "they just were not". it may have something to do with everyone knowing someone who got shot with an fmj round that lived and no one knowing anyone shot with a 12ga with buck or slug that lived.

thing is here in the USA your much more likely to be shot with Hornady , federal , Winchester or black hills 223 law enforcement ammo using bullets designed to rapidly expand and not go through multiple walls that typically means fragmenting and not much different than a varmint round actually not that Hornady will say necessarily but the 55gr TAP URBAN looks like it is using a V-Max bullet maybe it isn't but the construction looks very similar.

I think most of our near by departments also qualify with their duty ammo , I know the town I live in does ,the lieutenant was in the gun shop buying 38spl +P 110 gr critical defense for his S&W j-frame off duty carry gun they have to qualify with anything they are going to carry.

part of why some the officers just carry their duty gun off duty, they don't even much worry about concealing they clip the badge to the belt next to the holster and go about their daily business.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

It makes sense carrying their service weapon and badge when off shift considering that technically they are never really off duty.

The deputy I know carries his service 9 mm at all times and when off shift with it concealed he neck chains his badge inside his shirt.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I was talking with one officer from a near by city , he feels that getting rid of the shotgun was a big mistake his department kept it as an option and switched to slugs only in the shotguns.
> he is an Afgan vet as well as a cop , he said it has been his experience that both here and in Afghanistan people respect a shotgun more than an m4 , even when using expanding ammo that would make a real mess out of you in a hurry , people have some mental thing about shot guns


I think they should keep shotguns in the cars so they can use "less lethal" rounds like bean bags or rubber buckshot, but I don't see any logical reason why they would need slugs for police work. 

Combat is different, since you don't generally have to worry so much about over penetration and innocent bystanders.

I also think for riot control they could learn from the Israeli's and use suppressed 10/22 rifles to surgically remove the instigators with leg shots. They aren't much louder than a pellet rifle and aren't as likely to kill anyone even if the target subject is missed.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

#4 buck shot with leg shots would be more effective. Slugs are pretty rough on targets, then again don't be a friggin' target. LEO isn't intended to be fluffy mediation group. Just the opposite these days.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

krackin said:


> #4 buck shot with leg shots would be more effective.


Police can't fire buckshot into a crowd under most circumstances.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

they went with slugs because they saw multiple projectiles that may not be controlled or because they are round might bounce and hit an unintended target as a liability.
we are also very Rural and while they are the city they have mutual aid agreements with the county and several small villages and townships. 
as rural as we are and as little crime as we generally have seems we don't go a year without something that involves a road block there are only a few roads in and out so rather than engage in town they set up a road block in a few key locations where your options are stop , the spike strip , a lime stone wall or very steep embankment . slugs penetrate auto glass better than 223. so far they haven't shot anyone at a road block, but a few have tried the steep embankment one died trying that.

had 2 cars with 7 people try the spike strips this spring 

you can't out run the radio.

the Israelis had stop using the 10/22 suppressed to break up riots , when in 2007 they did the testing and realized just how lethal they , they killed several people before they ordered the testing.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

We finally switched to 00 and got away from #4. Effective range was too short and flyers were a liability. In training we stressed the range limitations of 00. Finally got approved to carry slugs. As police, we generally shoot at individuals not groups. If we can justify shooting at person A it does not mean we can shoot at the person next to them.

People have fear of the 12. They assume you carry shot. With modern ammo. The slugs have great accuracy. 

Not all should carry a 223. Not all should carry a 12. One should carry that with which they are the best.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

I sit here with a new insight.


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