# My vet is a jerk....



## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

Sometimes.... I just want to wring their neck! Our goat naomi has been having a problem with bloat hookworms and anemia. Now the anemia is doing good and she has less bloat but... now her Face is all swollen and gross and she refuses to get up at all I am at my wits end. And.... the vet won't see her with out a credit card or cash!!! I don't know what to do for her we fear she will die if she doesn't move or something. Plus she has lost alot of weight. She drinks and eats some but not enough. I just don't know what to do. 

:help: 

Arklady


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Ok, first off, why is he a jerk? Because he wants to get paid? I don't think that's too crazy. 

Have you wormed the goat? With what? Anemia and swollen jaw sounds like worm overload. Can you at least pay the vet to do a fecal and see what kind of worms you're dealing with.


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## Faithful Heart (Jan 28, 2006)

Our vets are like that here too. It's a shame they can't be like a county hospital where we can get care for them RIGHT NOW even though pay day is a week away. 

Do you have someone you can borrow money from? Or maybe one of those loan offices where you can put the title to your car up till pay day? I know not the greatest option, but sometimes the only ones. Many of those loan places will let you get $100 the first time used, with some sort of paycheck/payment guarantee. Or do you have something/anything you could pawn? A tv and vcr can usually get you $60-$100.

Still not great options...... just trying to open your mind to the fact that you can do SOMETHING to help your very loved goat. Take strength, you DO have options (somehow), and there are people here to listen and give advice.


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## GrannyG (Mar 26, 2005)

Our vet just up and locked his gates, stated he was quitting, no more vet in our town, he is just going to raise cattle. Why? Because people couldn't pay their bills. We always paid him and feel the loss of his services.


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## SDjulieinSC (Aug 8, 2005)

My vet will "hold" a check if you are a regular client. Often times he will even hold a few, like if the bill is $100 leave a check for $50 dated for your next pay day and another for $50 dated for your following pay day. You can't loose anything by asking...good luck.


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## moosemaniac (Mar 7, 2003)

homebirtha said:


> Ok, first off, why is he a jerk? Because he wants to get paid? I don't think that's too crazy.


My vet bills me for a "house" call.

Ruth


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

We used to know vets that would work with people no matter how bad their situation was, and used to know vets that would wave certain fees for people who simply couldn't pay them but were really trying to do the best that they could. Our animals are very important to us and our money is extremely limited. Whatever stuff we could pawn wouldn't net us enough to pay even half of what the vet charges us. He's very expensive and one of the few vets in our area that deal with livestock. He knows our situation and just doesn't care. He won't take a check. From us he just wants paid right then because of our previous problems in the past. Yes, I understand where he's coming from in wanting to get paid, and I do want to pay him. But! He has charged me for things I DIDN'T ASK for. He has also blatently not helped us when we were desperate. I have lost animals due to his lack of caring and desire for money. That's why he's a jerk. He's supposed to like animals, but all he seems to see is dollar signs. We don't have long distance, don't even have an accessable car till after 4 pm. It is very hard on us, and he has no understanding whatsoever. 

As far as the goat goes, we have wormed her twice in the last 10 days. First time was orally with Ivermectin. The second time was under the skin with the same stuff. We don't have the money to get anything more. We bought a mineral block for her, a mineral salt lick, have been giving her some kind of iron supplement for the anemia. She hasn't made any attempt to get up in the last 4 days and barely acknowledges our presence when we go over and pet her. The vet has told us repeatedly that she would be fine, and she's not. That's why I'm so upset.

Arklady


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

So you have stiffed this vet in the past and now you're upset that he won't treat your animals "on credit"? It's nice and all when a vet is magnanimous enough to help people out in a bad situation. But if they've done it before and not gotten paid, I wouldn't blame them for telling those folks to find a new vet. Around here, most livestock vets aren't super-wealthy and would have trouble staying in business is they didn't get paid. 

I am not trying to be hurtful here, but I don't know how else to put this. If you don't have money to pay a vet, that's bad enough, but not even having enough money to buy the necessary meds is really irresponsible. Perhaps you should wait to have animals until you have the money necessary to care for them. 

From what you're described, my guess would be that the Ivermectin isn't working anymore. The worms have built up a resistance, or it's not the right kind of wormer for the parasites you have. You need to switch wormers, I would try Cydectin orally. But it's expensive. You also need to be giving something like Red Cell to build her iron back up. I'm sorry, but if you don't have the money and have no way to get it, perhaps you need to find a new home for your goats with someone who can at least afford to stock the basic meds necessary to keep animals. 




Arklady said:


> We used to know vets that would work with people no matter how bad their situation was, and used to know vets that would wave certain fees for people who simply couldn't pay them but were really trying to do the best that they could. Our animals are very important to us and our money is extremely limited. Whatever stuff we could pawn wouldn't net us enough to pay even half of what the vet charges us. He's very expensive and one of the few vets in our area that deal with livestock. He knows our situation and just doesn't care. He won't take a check. From us he just wants paid right then because of our previous problems in the past. Yes, I understand where he's coming from in wanting to get paid, and I do want to pay him. But! He has charged me for things I DIDN'T ASK for. He has also blatently not helped us when we were desperate. I have lost animals due to his lack of caring and desire for money. That's why he's a jerk. He's supposed to like animals, but all he seems to see is dollar signs. We don't have long distance, don't even have an accessable car till after 4 pm. It is very hard on us, and he has no understanding whatsoever.
> 
> As far as the goat goes, we have wormed her twice in the last 10 days. First time was orally with Ivermectin. The second time was under the skin with the same stuff. We don't have the money to get anything more. We bought a mineral block for her, a mineral salt lick, have been giving her some kind of iron supplement for the anemia. She hasn't made any attempt to get up in the last 4 days and barely acknowledges our presence when we go over and pet her. The vet has told us repeatedly that she would be fine, and she's not. That's why I'm so upset.
> 
> Arklady


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

Amen to homebirtha. We had a vet that left because of people charging and not paying bills. If you can't afford to take care of animals you don't need them. My .02


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

homebirtha said:


> So you have stiffed this vet in the past and now you're upset that he won't treat your animals "on credit"?


I have never stiffed my vet. But then you don't have to believe me either. That is your choice if you like. Personally I feel they over charge for somethings and it makes me mad. I know somethings they get by the 55 gallon barrels and its dirt cheap but they charge exorbidant prices for it. I know its life. Same as with you. You don't always get what you pay for. This guy is and has been a jerk since he bought the vet business from the guy who retired. Appearantly being treated fairly is an option they don't choose to excercise. I will go else where for my information. You guys can pm me if you have ANY valuable information. I used all my cushion I had to pay for what I got for my goat she will either die or not.

Thanks anyways...

Arklady


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## huntingnappanee (Mar 23, 2005)

I work for a business that people say charges too much and I have problem collecting from people sometimes. This is a free country, a vet or any business person can set whatever terms they want for their services. Either you pay for it or you find another source. Most people have no idea about overhead cost, insurance, and the other expeses to run a business. Just because the vet pays $5.00 for 5 gal. of med. does not mean he can sell it for $1.10 per gal. Now that I got that off my chest. Your goat has worms that are causing bottle jaw. You need to worm it with a different class of wormer than you have been using. Make sure you give enough wormer. Too much is better than not enough as far as wormers are concerned.


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## brierpatch1974 (Sep 28, 2005)

My vet bills me for a "house" call. ? He should bill you. Its not free for him to drive out to your place. I don't blame any vet for wanting paid up front. Too many people never pay them or even try too. 
Ofcourse when I finish my bioloigy degree I am going to vet school. If I am nice enough to help some one out and they don't pay me I garuntee I will have lawers put leans against all their property until I get paid.. They will never be able to sell their land and kids won't inherit it either untill bills are paid... Sounds mean and cruel but vets have a right to be paid and make a living same as anyone else. Raising animals cost money if you cant pay for them don't raise them. Its that simple. I know it hurts honest people but now days their seem to be more crooks than honest people.


B{


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Arklady, you could spend 1 hour searching worms, swelling in the throat (bottle jaw) on this site, it would have saved you the second injection of Ivermectin, it would have told you that you needed to switch wormers from Ivermectin to Cydectin (just because of where you live) and that a mineral block is not going to give your goat the copper she needs (because of your area) and you wouldn't have had to bother your vet. Bloat, anemia etc., is all us, we cause it...we feed goats incorrectly we harm their rumen flora, we leave them in too small of areas or feed them hay on the ground, or have feeders they and kids can get their feet into, feed them too short of grass, and we reparasitize them....goats would never live "naturally" in many of our farms! Open the gates and my goats would leave for the frozen north!

If you don't have the money I will send you a syringe of cydectin (281-592-3039) you give it to her by mouth. But you have to fix the anemia which is causing the severe anemia. And unless she is your only goat, you whole herd has worms, not just one goat. Much more and your does liver will be completely ruined. IF you had anemia this severe you would be in the hospital on IVs, your goat is laying out in a hot barn...huge difference. There are a few things every goat person needs to have around always....lactated ringers in an IV bag is one, you simply don't give it IV you put it under the skin and make a large bubble high up on the shoulder, replacing another bubble on the other side until she is up on her own. pipevet.com Less than $5 You will have to temp her 10 times a day with koolaid or gatoraide water....switch between warm and cold water, do everything you can to get her to eat and drink. Get the molassas out of her grain. Quit switching her diet around. If all you can afford is oats and grass hay than feed that to her every day. Switching to better feed some of the time, or giving treats like handfuls of chicken feed, rabbitt feed, scratch or corn, or reading something on the internet and adding it....takes different bacteria in her gut to handle than what she is used to, so she bloats, milks poorly and looks awful.....why it's so important to take food the goat is used to and slowly switch them when you purchase them.

Call me and get the Cydectin. Get her on a good diet and keep her there. Do everything you would do for yourself if you were anemic, iron, green things to eat, lots of fluids, and she has no energy to get up..........make her, but in the cool of the evening or she can die of heat stroke.

I am lucky, I have a great vet, but I treat her that way, and I taught her how to treat me, and how to treat my goats. We are responsible for our animals. Vicki


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

I understand everyone's point of view, and I'm not saying that this vet doesn't deserve to make a living. I have never said that. I likewise never said that I didn't pay my vet. I have also not written down my life story, and I was instantly accused of being a bad person with my animals. A vet is required by law to allow people to see their facility. Because ours says "hospital" instead of clinic, they have told us that we are not allowed back there. They have also charged me for services I didn't ask for and didn't need and then forced me to pay for it. Example, I had a cat with some absessed teeth. I took her to the vet to have the teeth removed. He removed all of her teeth but one and then did a dental on the one tooth and charged me $85 for it. $85 to clean and polish ONE TOOTH. I told him to go ahead and pull it because she was getting irritated by it and he refused. He refused to perform a service on MY CAT. What kind of vet is that, I ask you? My daughter also took in a conure to have her leg band removed because she kept getting caked food on it. She told them that she wanted to be with her bird. They refused to let her be with her bird. Her conure was completely stressed out all day over that. What kind of vet is this, I ask you? And you guys are telling me that the vet has the right to do this because he has a right to charge whatever he wants? He charges almost $150 to spay a cat in heat. I can go to a vet an hour away and get the same job done for less than $40. I have had animals die because this vet even refused to answer my questions. I have explained that I don't have a car and just need to know what I can do to keep an animal alive until I can take it in, and he just gives me this runaround "Sorry, can't help you." story all the time. 

Every person has the right to own animals. It is this country that has suddenly decided that if you can't give them sterling living conditions that they don't deserve to have an animals. My daughter has dealt with people who were poor and still had animals. She has heard from those people that their dog or cat or bird was the only thing keeping them from going insane from their hard life. Who are you people to tell someone else what they can and cannot have? If your life suddenly went down the crap shoot would you just get rid of all of your animals because you suddenly couldn't care for them perfectly? Would you just get rid of your "best friend" because you couldn't care for it, be it a horse, dog or whatever? Farm life has never been easy for anyone and we are doing the best we can with the animals that we can afford. Bad things just spring up out of nowhere sometimes and it's usually when we are the brokest. 

My goat never had a problem, not one, until she had babies. The little ones are doing great, but she has suffered because we were told to keep her penned up and to treat her all these special ways for the babies. We had to keep her penned up because our dogs thought the babies were snacks. So to protect them, we did what we had to. We brought her what she usually ate on her own, even if it took going out there with a pair of hand scissors to cut the weeds ourselves. We had never ever had a problem with worms until she had her babies. We were going to worm her when we found out she was pregnant and we waited. We knew she needed it, but we HAD to wait. Maybe we fell down on our job, maybe we didn't do everything we could. We have talked to the people in our area and we have done everything they told us to no effect. This was a place we thought we could go to get some real help. So far I've gotten two posts that seemed genuinely helpful. The rest were posts on how bad of an animal owner I was. 

Thank you, Vicki for your post. I did research this site as best I could. I just didn't know what to look for. I read several threads. I would love to call you even if it was just to talk, but I don't have long distance. And it is true, I can't afford Cydectin. It's $87 for a 12 oz bottle in this area. There's no way I could justify that cost when it's almost half of a week's pay just for that. I had heard a lot of good things about Ivermectin. That's why I bought it, and it was hard to do that. And now here I am with a bottle still 95% full and being told that it's worthless. That's the kind of stuff that drives a poor person insane. It's not that we can't afford to care for our animals. It's the products that we are told good things about UNTIL we buy them and then we're told "the truth" and are stuck with wasted money.

I really care about my animals, and I do everything as best I can for them to keep them healthy. This year has been particularly harsh on everyone, so I'm not feeling entirely the lone wolf in this instance. But if all you guys want to do is slander someone on their methods of care, then keep your .02 to yourself. I don't want to hear it. I already know what you're going to say. As far as the rest of you that still seem to care, thank you for your posts, and I am still trying very hard to do my best with my goat. She's a good goat, a good mom, and I really don't want to lose her.

Arklady


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Don't know if your vet will do it, but if we only need a couple doses of something that comes in a *large* bottle, our vet will draw up the amount we need and sell it to us that way. :shrug: 
Like Vicki said, your doe needs Cydectin and it *can* be used on pregnant does with no side effects. So you know next time, if you have a wormy pregnant doe, you can worm her with Cydectin. The worms attacked your doe while she was stressed from the kidding and they have taken over. If she is this bad, then the kids need wormed as well. Since the doe has worms who are immune to the Ivermectin class of wormers, the kids will also. Sorry this is happening to your doe. Is there a goat person anywhere in the area who would let you borrow some Cydectin?? Do you have any Vitamin B??


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

We were given a B12 shot for her, which we gave her right away, but aside from that, no I don't have anything on hand, Ozark. He also gave me some Lixotinic and told me to give her 5 cc a day, which I've been doing as well.

Arklady


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Up the Lixotonic, it's alot like the Red Cell I would use, to 3 times a day until at least the signs of swelling go down, which will also tell you her liver is doing better. Leave her babies in the stall away from the dogs and let her out to browse, or in the case of rain (hay or cut her browse) (I am thinking of starting an ARK tommorrow!) Does rarely have to be wormed in pregnancy if they were wormed before they are bred, just something about being bred that most goats are stronger immune wise, unlike humans. But the hormonal surge of kidding, and the worms know this, they know the stress and activate their babies who were arrested all winter, to become activated, they suckblood and your nearly egg free goat on fecal at 4 months pregnant is dieing from anemia and blood soaked diarrhea the week after she kids. Worming the day they kid and monthly wormings of the kids until they are weaned and growing well, are more important than ever with our southern humidty.

Good care, and a clean place to live has nothing to do with money. It is more about hard work.

Purchasing drugs wormers and supplies local at feed stores and Tractor Supply type places will just cost you more money in the long run. There simply aren't better prices than jefferspet.com call 1-800-jeffers and get their catalogs sent to your house if you don't internet products. Sharon Miller at M&Supply (shoot that doesn't sound right is a goat owner and sells and shipps all goat things cheap and will sell you small portions of things go to dairygoatsplus.com and find her there. Good luck with your doe, she needs lots of good nursing for a very long time, don't even think of breeding her for several months. Vicki


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

I live in southern MO and the Ivomec still works for me, I give 1cc/33 lb orally. I know it works because I do fecals. Some people I know in AR have switched to Cydectin though. Worms are causing the bottle jaw. It would take a little if she is severly anemic to make a difference also you probably need to give her another dose of ivomec 10 days after the first, might help. I would give the B12 every day for a while, and if you have any Probios give that to her too. I'd say all this is effecting her rumen too. Have you got any cattle people near by that you could by just buy a dose of Cydectin off of? Sorry if I judged to harshly, don't know your situation, but Iv'e seen situations where the person is better off and the animal is better off if they are draining your cash supply and not making anything off of them.


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

If you don't have anything to take a fecal with, is there anyway to tell on sight if a goat is doing better after worming. The bloat has gone down considerably, but the bottle jaw has gotten worse in the last few days. Her stool was in clumps a few days ago, but now it looks like normal. The vet had suggested giving her yogurt as well, and I completely forgot about it until now, so I decided to try it and she drank it like it was gonna be stolen. I did try to move her and all she did was let out a weak and pathetic pain filled baa..and she didn't move, so, I don't know what to do there.

Arklady


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

SDjulieinSC said:


> My vet will "hold" a check if you are a regular client. Often times he will even hold a few, like if the bill is $100 leave a check for $50 dated for your next pay day and another for $50 dated for your following pay day. You can't loose anything by asking...good luck.


We are regular clients of a local vet office, have been for about 3 years. They treat our horses, cats, dogs, sheep, goats, etc. and I've always paid in full at the time of service. A couple months back one of our barn kitties split her side open somehow and required anesthesia and suturing, bill was around $130.00 total. When my husband went to pick her up, he asked if they would hold a check for 3 DAYS until his paycheck went into our bank account. They were so rude and so awful to him, telling him, "Well, we'll do it this once, but in the future we expect payment in full at the time of service." Just to make him feel extra terrible, the receptionist told him, "Postdating checks is ILLEGAL!" 
Sure made me see them in a whole new light. We've paid them THOUSANDS of dollars over the last few years, and this is how they treat us?
I've started taking alot of the livestock to a different vet who is much more accommodating. I guess the other vet would prefer that we left the cat to suffer til payday? It wasn't elective treatment, it was necessary due to an emergency.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Arklady- I will buy your Ivomec from you if your area is resistant. PM me with how much you bought/how much you paid and how much you used and we'll come up with a price, ok?

Hope your Doe responds to the Cydectin from Vicki!

-Jill


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## goatmarm (Nov 19, 2005)

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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

There are good vets and not-so-good vets. I have run into a few that really didn't seem to care and were rough with the way they handled sick animals. Can't tar all vets with the same brush, be it good or bad. :shrug:


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## brierpatch1974 (Sep 28, 2005)

Another thing about vets is make sure you find one who works alot with farm animals and not just every now and then. If there specialty is cats and dogs stay away from them. And if the vet locally is no good when you call you can always call others in differant areas. I always call more than one just in case there is a big differance in opinions. I even have my favorite two on speed dial. But even they rarely get goats. mostly horses and cows and a few sheep.

Bp


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

I'm sure everyone has their "perfect" areas in the US where they moved to and have never had a better life or better friend. Unfortunately we have never found that area. I don't believe for a minute that anyone of you would believe me when I say that I have no friends down here, but it's uncommon to run into someone willing to say it. I'm not going to go into a pity party speech about it because it won't do any good. Suffice to say that because of that situation, we are unable to get the information we need or desire, and are generally treated like we aren't worth knowing. We do the best we can with what we have. The only two people that I would consider as friend are in no position to help us even if they wanted to. Her son was wrongfully sent to prison and we have sacrificed time and money to take care of her when no one else would. I don't regret that, not for a minute, but it was a real shame to hear from her that we were the only ones, as poor as we were, willing to make sure she was still alive everyday.

I'm not really going to talk about my vet anymore, because I know what kind of vet he is even if no one else will believe me. I will not ask him for help anymore for any reason. If my animals die because I can't (money wise) get the help I need, then I guess that's just what I'll deal with. I was hoping I could raise some pygmy goats to get a little extra income, but each one we get seems to die for some unknown reason. And I do mean up and fine one day, dead the next. :shrug: 

Arklady


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

I work for a vet and believe me.....just about every other person that comes in wants to pay on credit. We had THREE just today within a 15 minute span that came in wanting to "pay next Tuesday". We do what we can to accomodate them (in emergencies) including having them leave post-dated checks, tho' you'd be surprised at how many claim they don't have a checking account or a telephone number or even a driver's license.......sigh. Do you know how many of them actually come back in to pay? Less than 30% of them. Just in the last 6 months we've had to write-off balances that came to a sum total of over $18,000! and this is from a vet who certainly doesn't overcharge!

A lot of vets now ARE requiring cash or credit cards up front as a result of the increasing number of non-paying clients. You may have every intention of paying, but there are just as many with a sob story that won't pay up and to differentiate between these people is just about impossible. Heck, a veterinarian in the area had to close up shop because of non-paying clients. Fortunately, he was kind enough to foreward to us a list of clients that he WOULD recommend (because we've been innundated with calls).......it's amazing how small that list is tho'.

Spaying a cat in heat? Of course it costs a great deal more......there's a LOT of risk in doing so and extra precautions need to be taken. If you didn't want to pay that much then you should have waited a few weeks until she was out of heat........far safer for the cat and much easier on your pocketbook.

Pulling a tooth that is not dead or decayed? I'm not surprised the vet refused to do this. Heck, we have people coming in asking if we'll pull the canines on their dog so they can't "bite" but it's just unethical. It's also extremely painful to pull a tooth that is well rooted. Yes, a vet can refuse to perform a service. In fact.....our vet REFUSES to declaw cats in the rear claws. You wouldn't believe the number of people that stomp off in a huff when we tell them that we can't remove ALL of "fluffy's" claws. No, you can't demand that a veterinarian do a particular service on your animal.....they DO have every right to refuse if they do not believe it is in the animal's best interest.

Not allowing your daughter to be with her bird? Well, there are some procedures that it's just better off that the owner isn't there. We have a lot of people who ask to be there for their dog's C-section or their cat's grub removal or an xray. Not only do we not need an owner there that might faint at the sight of a surgery (YES, it does happen) because we're supposed to be tending to the animal and not the owner who just dropped to the floor, but sometimes having an owner there is just one too many people to get in the way. Once you have the vet and an assistant and anyone else necessary for the procedure you have a full room without adding to it a hovering client.

We do try to accomodate clients, but even we are getting to be far stricter in our payment requirements. Tho' we used to allow clients to observe surgeries etc, that is no longer the case (due to a few injuries from passed out owners) and when a procedure is needed to be done when the animal needs to be taken in to the back or another room. No, I don't believe these situations are because your vet is being a jerk.....maybe they've bumped you down on the priority list due to your previous conflicts. If you've not been a pleasant client to deal with they may no longer even want to deal with you. A vet/client relationship is a two way street.


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

If a vet is willing to extend "credit" for emergencies, that's wonderful, a plus. It is not something to expect. I would be just as desperate and angry in this same circumstance, but I'd blame myself for ending up in this situation. Not that anyone was a bad animal owner, but "blaming" yourself is the only way to solve the problem! You're situation financially and animal wise is the only thing you have any control over, not some veterinarian.

Look back on your own actions and see where you went sideways as far as feeding, meds, etc. Perhaps you didn't do something wrong, but isn't it more important to know if you DID or not, so not to do it again??

Our closest livestock vet is 80 miles away. We have no freeways up here, so it's an hour and a half if the roads are good, coming and going. There are no local visiting vets.

If my animal gets sick there is NO vet except by phone. Am I going to whine about having no reasonably close vet or am I going to do something about it? There are livestock owners in my shoes who make darn sure they are stocked up, savvy about medications, treatments, symptoms, what's a common parasite for the area, lay person resources, even surgical supplies. I am just now setting up for our homestead, and while I still have the money from the sale of our previous home, I'm ordering Lactated Ringers, worming meds, kid nipples, you name it. I'm fortunate to have the resources. But if I didn't, I'd have to get them SOMEHOW. Not complain that someone won't give them to me just because they have them and I need them.

I know poorly goats can be bought unbeknownst to you. But you describe a lot of death and sickness in your goats, and it can't all be bad genes. No vet or lack of one's services causes that. What's going on in your environment? You can't just say "I don't know!" because then who else will? The same old same old will keep happening, and that is heartbreaking for you and your family.

It's a waste of time to focus on how money grubbing or uncaring a vet is. Your goat girl needs you to forget his butt and see what all the people on this forum are offering. Already several aspects of your problem have been solved, and they're willing to help more.

Can hardly call this "my 0.02" but there it is. I wish you and your goat lady the very best, I think with the help offered here she'll have a good chance of recovery.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

We are in dairy country and almost all vets allow accounts for farms. Our local vet (who are mainly cow vets) have allowed us an account from day 1, 8 years ago, usually it's paid every month, but at times, it does carry a couple months, but I always pay a fair chunk monthly. Now we switched (for important stuff) to a better small animal and horse vet clinic 40 minutes away 2 years ago and they always want payment immediately (sometimes this is emergency stuff that's $600) and I always suck it up and charge on the C.C. but, last fall, we asked for an account after a big farm call for floating all the horses/donkeys teeth and they obliged us. If I can, I still pay up front, but they will allow us to run a month or two on account. BUT you have to figure, we have 5 dogs, 2 house cats, 2 horses, 8 donkeys and a dozen or more goats. So, we see the vet a fair amount sometimes. And we've proved ourselves reliable, honest, and willing to do what must be done for our animals and to get them paid. But there was another small animal vet 20 miles in the other direction we used for 5 years and they never allowed us an account, pay now, or your dog stays basically is their policy, but their farms are allowed accounts. 

You also have to think for those vets that don't allow accounts to farms/hoof stock owners, that they probably got burned a few times by clients and just gave up the "credit" idea. Around here, lots of farmers are poor, and alot of others may have the money, but be just plain bad about bills - my step dad does some custom baling and he has a terrible time collecting money on that from half his customers. I used to work in a bank that's big into Ag. stuff and we had lots of farmers that owed thousands to vets, feed stores, etc.

I've charged a lot of my animal stuff on credit cards (food, vet, health care stuff, etc.) as I figure I want 'em, I got to pay for them. If I've got debt now to show it, big deal, can't take it with me later on! If you can't afford even basic care, don't have animals.


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

I said I wasn't going to discuss the vet anymore and I won't. I don't care. None of you guys seem to have ever experience the same situation and don't give a hoot if you ever do. Because we can't afford $100 at the drop of a hat, we look for other methods that work just as good. You guys wanna know what led us to this situation. People like you who thought they way you do that gave us bad advice that we trusted because we had no where else to go. THAT'S what did it. Our goat was perfect one day and down the next. I know the signs to look for. Clear eyes, good stool, good food, alertness, responsive to voices and actions, all of that. We do it every day. It bothers us greatly when we have a problem that develops overnight in the middle of the week when we have no money to fix it. We have asked about major do's and don'ts and we got the biggest runaround. Now we ask for methods we can do in the middle of the week when we have little to no money to help fix the problem. And now we are getting criticized SOME MORE for being bad pet owners. We can and do afford basic care. There's just stuff we flat out DON'T KNOW. And we come to people who are supposed to know and then they either blatantly lie to us so that they don't lose business, or tell us they don't want to help, or give us bad advice. Take it however you like, I don't care. 

I will say this again and I hope for the last time, if you're not here to help, go away. If you just want to criticize me, go away. If you do not know, look but don't talk because it can be as much of a learning experience for you as for others. Ask questions, but if you really don't know, it's most often more harmful to offer advice than it is to help. I follow that advice myself. I don't offer the advice unless I know that it works! You guys think that I don't feel like a bad pet owner? Like I should have seen this coming? I don't LOOK for my animals to get sick, but when I see a problem I jump on it then to get it fixed. I have been asking every source possible as soon as this problem developed, when it was just a problem with a bit of bloat and worms. It's developed into this due to BAD ADVICE! You vet workers can justify everything out there, and fine, go ahead. There are exceptions to every rule. There are people who can handle the surgeries, and there are people who actually know what they're doing that are not in the vet business. Like another person said, " You can't tar them all with the same brush". It just don't work like that.

It tears me up inside to see my hard work come to nothing because we spend all the money we have to spend helping our animals as best we can. You tell us that if we can't afford it, then don't have them. Well, there are people out there that can't afford children and they have them anyways. Why don't you go talk to them? Talk to the hundreds, no thousands of children that are homeless and the ones that die because their parents can't afford to take care of them. How about the people that die because they are afraid to go to the doctor because they can't pay for it and die from some simple problem? How do you deal with that one? Oh, I know, if you can't afford the medicine, then don't get sick? Doesn't that sound a little odd? If Chuck comes in here and disrupts the thread, so be it. I came on looking for something I could do TODAY to help my goat. I have $10 to my name TODAY to help my goat. I would really appreciate being able to write, chat, talk, or e-mail an EXPERIENCED goat person, meaning one who's had them for probably over 10 years. Vicki has been very helpful and while I feel like I would be taking advantage of her, I would appreciate the Cydectin if it would really help. I can't afford the $100 to drop on a full bottle at this time. I can work on it though if it will really help. I cannot call her because I do not have long distance. So Vicki if that's ok, I can pm you my phone number so that we can talk, because I'd like to do that too. I just want good advice that really works because I want to learn. Raising goats and other animals for that matter doesn't have to rely on expensive medication all the time. Home remedies are called that for a reason, they are simple things that do the same job. I've been told that you can worm goats with long cut chewing tobacco. Is that true? If that's the case, I CAN AFFORD THAT! :grump: 

Arklady


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## brierpatch1974 (Sep 28, 2005)

*I was hoping I could raise some pygmy goats to get a little extra income, but each one we get seems to die for some unknown reason. * You want to raise healthy animals but instead of figuring out whats causeing them to die for "no reason" you just go buy more and try again? That is NOT responsible thing to do. There is somthing wrong with the living enviroment there. You should NOT be buying more untill the problem is fixed. You can't afford vet bills I understand but everything you get is going to get sick and die untill the problem is located and fixed.
*"People like you who thought they way you do that gave us bad advice that we trusted because we had no where else to go. THAT'S what did it."* No one here did anything to your goats. Everyone offered advice on what problems could be and how to fix it. No one here has come to you and inspected your goats or their enviroment or even soil samples.
You ask for advice and people share their experiences and try to find a solution and offer help. But untill you get the enviroment cleaned up and checked out you are doing nothing but killing goats and getting mad and blaming other people when you have no one but yourself and your lack of good judgement to blame. 
Yes there are lot of people who have kids when they can't afford them and they shouldnt. Would you have more kids now since your budget is so tight? I don't think you would because you are smart and careing enough not to do that to a child. Do the same thing for your pets. Make the enviroment work and safe before killing more goats. Why keep treating goats for the same unknown problems? Find out what it is and fix it then raise the goats.
If you think this is an attack on you then I am sorry but I won't sit by and let you blame honest people for giving good advice the best they can without seeing your animals and their enviroment. Its no ones fault but yours if you are not learning the cuase of the problem and treating it. every goat you buy will get the same way untill the enviroment is cleaned up.


BP


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Arklady said:


> Vicki has been very helpful and while I feel like I would be taking advantage of her, I would appreciate the Cydectin if it would really help. I can't afford the $100 to drop on a full bottle at this time.


Also, as I said, some vets will draw up what you need if its just a minimal amount and just charge you for that. Don't know if your vet will, ours does. That way you wouldn't have to buy an entire bottle.....


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

Sorry, but you are blaming everyone else for your situation. It's the vet's fault for requiring money up front.....it's the fault of others for giving you bad advice etc. 

What you have to understand is that if you are asking a medical opinion of someone who is NOT a vet you may get the advice for free, but I've seen an awful lot of baaaaaad free advice given on this forum and others. It may be free, but it may NOT always be reliable. The best answer IS always to talk to your vet. There are a few here whose advice I would trust (Vicki IS among them) but you can't always take "Joe Blow's" advice and run with it......do a little research in to the subject on your own after asking for advice....you'd be surprised at how much information you'll find. Heck, you can even search the Merck Veterinary Manual online......a very valuable source of information!

This thread was ABOUT the vet so I certainly don't understand why the vet can't be discussed. I personally found the blame you placed on your vet to be weak.......I explained my reasons and I stand by them. Too many people don't think twice about paying for their groceries before leaving the store, but think that it's different when it comes to a vet bill and unfortunately, that has created a completely new mentality when it comes to billing for vet services. More and more vets are requiring payment up front. 

Yes, of course there are owners out there that can handle the surgeries, but of course just like not being able to "know" which people asking for credit will actually pay, there is no way to know which of these people that claim to be able to "handle a surgery" can actually do so and we certainly can't handle the liability if one of these "crashing owners" injures themselves. For example.....even tho' there are owners out there that can handle their pet for routine procedures there are also pet owners out there the THINK they can handle their pet that in all reality can not. That is why it is routine for an assistant to hold a pet for vaccines, nail trimming etc. in our clinic. This is to protect the pet as well as the veterinarian AND the owner. Of course there are some owners that are offended and in some cases the vet has relented and let the owner hold the pet......guess what......80% of the time SOMEONE gets injured. Now there is a sign at the front desk stating that an assistant will handle the animal for ALL procedures without exception. It's called liability. You don't expect to be in the surgery room when your child is in there having surgery......why is it any different with a pet? 

Vicki has offered to help you. Why not invest that $10 you have in to a calling card so you can call her and talk to her. I'm sure with the meds and shipping and all that she shouldn't have to call you on her bill too. That's asking a bit much.


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

You're all absolutely right. My vet is a top notch guy who deserves every penny he makes. In fact, all vets are. I'm worthless slime because I really liked my goat that cost next to nothing to care for. I really liked my goat that never had a problem until now, and now that she does, I'm a horrible pet owner because I let it get this far. I'm really sorry that I troubled anyone with this problem that was solely my fault. I'm really sorry that I didn't do absolutely everything I could to see to it that she was healthy at all times. I'm even sorry I ever got her pregnant, she might have lived longer had it not been for that. I'm sorry I came to you guys for solutions....no...I'm not sorry for that. I deserved every beating I took from you guys. And I am sorry that I burdened Vicki. I don't think her help would benefit now anyways. Naomi's breathing is so shallow I can barely see her chest rise. It was much appreciated and I would have enjoyed getting to know her, but the cars are gone all the time and the only time I have to get a phone card is on the weekend when it's not in use. But that's ok. I won't need it then anyways. I didn't mean to bring out the bad things in you guys. So I'll remove myself from the situation in abject apology and humility. Thank you guys so much for showing me the error of my ways. I am such a bad pet owner...horrible. I just want you to know before I go..... You guys have been really mean. And you have said many horrible things....And if you really cared about my goat...you would have actually offered me solutions even if you beat me. Anything would have been better than a wasted day of arguing because my goat was baaing at me this morning...and now she's just laying there. But thank you guys. I know that was the best thing to do for my goat. Thank you so much.

Arklady


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm sorry to hear that your goat is doing so poorly. I wish there was something you could do to help her, but it sounds like it's probably too late for her. But if you have other goats, you need to figure out what's going on, for their sake. Please.. please... do some reading, figure out what to look for, save up some money and get some of the basic meds to keep on hand, and learn how to use them when they're needed. Worm the kids. Put them on coccidia prevention. Keep them in a clean, dry area. 

Start here: www.fiascofarm.com 
It's free to read and has lots of good information. 

I don't care if you want to blame me, your vet, everyone on this forum or Santa Clause for what's happened. But now you have to move on and figure out what you can do to keep from losing more goats.


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## full sun (Aug 6, 2005)

Arklady, I am sorry about your goat. It must be beyond frustrating to watch her suffer and not be able to fix it. And maybe this frustration has made you hyper-sensitive. I have read this whole thread, and I really don't think people were mean. I think people have been trying to help. But you have been so combative every step of the way. I am going to pray tonight that you lose some of your negative energy. I know that it is personal, but i didn't mean it as an attack. I am worried about you. It sounds like you are in a tight situation and in many ways, your hands are tied. But you need to step back, take a deep breath and thoroughly examine your resources what you *are* in control of. You can't go around blaming people for what's wrong in your life. I am really getting off the subject, but I think that people are trying to help you. Nobody wants to see your animal suffer. And we've all had our own worries about our animals. But for their sake, you have to keep your cool. 

I hope that you continue to visit this site. There is a lot to learn here. And I know you have things to contribute here too.

Like I said, I am praying for you and your peace. 
Jennifer


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## mrglock27 (Dec 8, 2003)

erased


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

It is the height of frustration to have a sick animal and not know what to do . 

From everything you've written, Arklady..I'm going to suggest a few things:

1. Until your financial situation improves enough where you have the means to provide the care that you WANT to provide should the remaining goats become ill, please seriously consider getting them to a new home ASAP .

2. While you are recuperating from this terrible experience, visit your local library and speak with the librarian about ordering books concerning goat care..make certain that you get ones which address what every goat owner needs to have on hand to treat common emergencies/illnesses, etc. as well as how to diagnose them. 

3. Those books will also tell you some great information about how to PREVENT illness and accidents when you have goats..some things occur no matter how careful people are, or how much money they have to put into managing their herd.."stuff" happens. Yet the more you know, the better.
And as you read, you can always visit here and ask.."Hey..I read such and such..does that really work?" What works in Northern Maine isn't going to work in Southern Alabama for many things related to worming for instance.

Many goat owners don't have access to a Vet at all..not because of money..but because there's no Vet in their area who has expertise with goats..even if there is, he/she may be busy elsewhere and you may have an emergency..the more you know, the less anxious and upset you'll be..and the better for your goats.


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## Arklady (Dec 27, 2005)

bostonlesley said:


> you can always visit here and ask.."Hey..I read such and such..does that really work?"


I did and I got nothing... so... I will do the next best thing. I will leave and I will quit this forum because I just realized I really have nothing in common with any of you. To those who tried to help thank you.

Arklady

May God have mercy on us all.


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

Arklady said:


> I did and I got nothing... so... I will do the next best thing. I will leave and I will quit this forum because I just realized I really have nothing in common with any of you. To those who tried to help thank you.


Wow........I just looked back at your previous posts (easy enough to do) and found there were plenty of people willing to try to help you out. There are some that may be reluctant to post a suggestion because they dont' feel they know enough to do so, but it sounds like your doe was VERY sick. There are certain situations that you have time to ask for opinions here and have the time to work thru them and try a few things. Unfortunately this situation was not likely one of those. Your doe may have been anemic due to worms or could have been anemic due to internal blood loss......that's not something that someone here could diagnose. There are some situations that just plain require a vet and I think this was probably one of them. I understand being in a tight situation with money, but that is not the fault of your vet or anyone here......that is something you need to work out. Sell a few goats so that you have an emergency fund to cover situations like this. Be resourceful in coming up with answers for your difficult situation......the world isn't against you......YOU are against you.

I've lost goats. I've posted the situations here in the past so that others can learn from my mistakes and successes. Sometimes nothing works.....sometimes you're able to get figured out how to fix it. You're angry now because you have a sick animal that you can't get fixed right now (due to varying circumstances). People here have offered help and you've given excuses. Someone even offered to send you meds and you still had excuses. You're losing this battle because of you......not because of the vet or anyone here. Grow up a little and take responsibility for the situation......only then will you begin to succeed.


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## Bluebutterfly (Jul 17, 2005)

Ok.. Just leave her alone. I have read each reply and most of you gave your opinion about the vet. Who cares about the vet! The important issues at hand were the goat. She is not against herself.. just looking for answers about her goat and complaining about her vet and I have read numerous posts here lately of people doing so. She had the right to do so as everyone gets ----ed off at their vet once in a while. Everyone.. Just back off and leave her alone now.. enough is enough. There is nothing wrong with this woman.. she is not agianst herself and she is not a piece of beef jerky to chew on! 
Bluebutterfly


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Never mind.


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## Shazza (Nov 20, 2004)

Wow this is a very involved thread and I dont want to upset anyone with my yabbering.....but I will say that we are also on the lower side of the "money" scale....BUT.....we make sure we keep all the animals well fed and mineralised and wormed so we dont have any problems requiring a Vet. Cos we too have Vets and we have Good Vets....but we also have different Vets for our different animals. I drive an hour to go to our Pug Vet...will trust no other...our local Vet is good for the goats and cows but frankly I havent had to call them out. The local guy is quite happy to chat over the phone and as long as you can completely give him the symstems etc he will diagnose over the phone and then its just a 10 min trip to pick up the meds from him.
I dont think people should keep animals that cannot afford to look after them properly, ie feed them....but a Vet bill is something you cannot plan for and I dont think neccessaryily bag someone cos they cant afford a Vet. Vets are like Mechanics..there are good ones and theres bad ones...dont we all begrudge paying a BAD mechanic. 
I do see where you are coming from...one of the reasons I dont have horses anymore...they always seem to need the Vet.


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## TexCountryWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

I feel like I need to say something in Arklady's defense. I think maybe some of yall may not be seeing her point as I do. She is obviously not a woman of monetary means, as she herself states. This is, afterall, a homesteading forum. There are many topics here on survival on limited income, etc. I may understand, more than most, what living on little money is like. I am disabled and receive a very tiny SSDI check. I cannot go out and buy things at the drop of the hat either. I have to be very careful with my money and figure things out for myself and with the help of my computer and books. Fortunately, we get internet servive free as a perk from my hubby's job or I would not have computer access. We have not bought meat since I can remember and it has been to hot to kill the extra little roosters. We have been in drought mode for well over a year and can't BBQ so the pit is out of the question and that is how we cook in the summer, so no goat meat. We have not had meat to eat in weeks. Pasta and beans. And lots of milk. Our goats FEED US! We are fortunate to have lots of land. And our wits about us to raise animals that people want to buy. But we cannot go buy anything we need if we don't have the money til payday. It has taken YEARS to accumalate all the vet supplies I have now. I have a very good supply of vet meds, but it has taken a good while to get them. Many folks get goats and have to good fortune and good paychecks to be able to buy what they need then and there. Arklady and I cannot. So we do the best we can as homesteaders. Self education from forums like this and friends like Vicki make a huge difference in our ability to raise healthy animals succesfully. Vicki has taught me so much that I am now able to raise my goats in a profitable manner. No foolin'! So has Sharon Miller of M-SSupply. And many others on DairyGoatsPlus. Knowledge is more powerful than the dollar. Arklady wanted knowledge, she did not come here to be blasted for not having dollars. We have all lost goats, she was upfront about several of hers dieing...so what, she was honest. Honesty is not a fault, it is a virtue. 

Arklady, I hear you loud and clear.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

The topic of this is "My Vet's a Jerk"


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Arklady, please email me [email protected] Put goats in the subject or your email will automatically go in the junk folder. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

TexCountryWoman said:


> I feel like I need to say something in Arklady's defense. I think maybe some of yall may not be seeing her point as I do. She is obviously not a woman of monetary means, as she herself states. This is, afterall, a homesteading forum. There are many topics here on survival on limited income, etc. I may understand, more than most, what living on little money is like. I am disabled and receive a very tiny SSDI check. I cannot go out and buy things at the drop of the hat either. I have to be very careful with my money and figure things out for myself and with the help of my computer and books. Fortunately, we get internet servive free as a perk from my hubby's job or I would not have computer access. We have not bought meat since I can remember and it has been to hot to kill the extra little roosters. We have been in drought mode for well over a year and can't BBQ so the pit is out of the question and that is how we cook in the summer, so no goat meat. We have not had meat to eat in weeks. Pasta and beans. And lots of milk. Our goats FEED US! We are fortunate to have lots of land. And our wits about us to raise animals that people want to buy. But we cannot go buy anything we need if we don't have the money til payday. It has taken YEARS to accumalate all the vet supplies I have now. I have a very good supply of vet meds, but it has taken a good while to get them. Many folks get goats and have to good fortune and good paychecks to be able to buy what they need then and there. Arklady and I cannot. So we do the best we can as homesteaders. Self education from forums like this and friends like Vicki make a huge difference in our ability to raise healthy animals succesfully. Vicki has taught me so much that I am now able to raise my goats in a profitable manner. No foolin'! So has Sharon Miller of M-SSupply. And many others on DairyGoatsPlus. Knowledge is more powerful than the dollar. Arklady wanted knowledge, she did not come here to be blasted for not having dollars. We have all lost goats, she was upfront about several of hers dieing...so what, she was honest. Honesty is not a fault, it is a virtue.
> 
> Arklady, I hear you loud and clear.



so nice said diana  

yes, the topic was "my vet is a jerk" so what, maybe he is? we don't know him. don't understand why mostly every body had to jump in to rescue the vet.
why is it that people have to hit some one that is already on the ground?


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

> From us he just wants paid right then because of our previous problems in the past.


Jerk or not he should still expect payment for services rendered...Sounds like he gave them a chance in the past and they blew it...Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. 



> why is it that people have to hit some one that is already on the ground?


Probably because of the following quote...Sounds like she isn't taking responsibility for her actions, or inactions in this case; instead she would rather blame others for her misfortune.



> I have lost animals due to his lack of caring and desire for money. That's why he's a jerk.


She lost animals because she couldn't afford them, not because treatment wasn't available. :nono:


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## ForMyACDs (May 13, 2002)

susanne said:


> yes, the topic was "my vet is a jerk" so what, maybe he is? we don't know him. don't understand why mostly every body had to jump in to rescue the vet.
> why is it that people have to hit some one that is already on the ground?


The reasons given were because the vet wouldn't do the work on credit, because he wouldn't let her daughter stay during a procedure on her bird and because he charged her more for spaying a cat in heat. All of these are not unusual in the present day circumstances of liability and non-bill paying. Nope......sounds like a wise vet to me. HOWEVER, there are lots of ways a vet CAN be a jerk.......the reasons she gave just don't add up to that statement.....instead they're an excuse to blame someone else. 

Unfortunately, Arklady is also blaming the people here for her animal being sick and when help was offered she gave excuses. Others have tried to help in the other posts she made.......she's so busy blaming everyone else that she's not taking the responsibility for the things she CAN do. Of course we all want the magic pill that will make things go away but you know what? That just plain doesn't exist. Standing around blaming people isn't going to fix the animal......nor is coming up with excuses for everything offered.

Do I know what is wrong with her doe? No, because from what I read it could be a multitude of things. Without a physical exam (and sometimes even WITH a physical exam) diagnosing and treating from a distance can be tricky. She's already angry that the suggestions that were given to her didn't work and has blamed these people for her doe still being sick. Why feed the fire?


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## orphy (Feb 27, 2006)

Hey arklady where in Ark. are you. I am in northcentral ar. just below mammoth spring. Are you anywhere near me. If you are I can sure try to help you out. I don't have alot either but I am willing to help if I can. I understand how it is to be allienated from the rest of the folks here. We moved here from somewhere else and after 14 years we have decided we will never be from here. But we are not leaving. Let me know if you are near me.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

I feel pretty fortunate to have a vet practice where, outside of major surgery they not only allow you to watch procedures, but expect you to jump in and assist. I do understand vets not allowing clients to attend and observe operations, but something like a band removal on a bird I don't see the harm in letting the owner be on hand, if requested. I find a big discrepancy in the protocal between small and large animal practices. Ark Lady, I hope your goat improves; I know how stressful it is with sick animals.


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## willowbarnfarm (Dec 26, 2005)

Jeez, can't a person vent here without some people getting so crabby about it? I think what started out as Arklady just venting about her vet turned into kind of an attack. I'm sorry, but some of you were extremely condescending and judgemental! No wonder she was put on the defense. I have seen this kind of behavior 
more times than I can count on these HT forums, and most of the time the poor soul just leaves all together. So what if she called her vet a jerk. I vent sometimes, about my vet, my kids, my husband, my goats...to my friends, mind you. Maybe she just needed someone to listen and to give some advice, not ridicule her for complaining about her vet. Arklady, if you are still reading-don't leave because of just a few people-there really are people who care and are willing to help with no judgment.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

A lot of good suggestions were given & she would say that she could not afford it. How else can we help? If we give advice & she can't afford to do it, than she is stuck & we can no longer help her.



> If your life suddenly went down the crap shoot would you just get rid of all of your animals because you suddenly couldn't care for them perfectly?


In response to this. Absolutely! My husband lost his job & I sold every animal I had except about 6 of the goats. I have since built my herd back up. I hated to sell them, but I knew I could not care for them at the time. I sold my turkeys, rabbits, mini donkeys, sheep, & most of my goats. I butchered my ducks & geese. So yes, when you get down on your luck you need to do what is in the best interest of your animals. Even if it means selling them. 

With a vet that is not helpful it is even more important to have the things on hand what you might need in an emergency. That way when you ask on a forum like this, you will have the things on hand to go out & treat your animals. We can tell you that she is wormy & needs to be wormed with Cydectin, but if you do not have it on hand or do not have the money to get it, we can't help you.


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Hear Hear Wendy. That was my thought exactly. Keeping animals that you can't afford to care for is wrong. If I couldn't afford to keep the most basic meds on hand for my animals, you bet your bottom dollar I would find them new homes. I'm not talking about having hundreds of dollars on hand to pay for expensive vet treatments. I'm talking about having proper wormers and knowing how to use them, being able to get an $8 bottle of medicine that could mean the difference between life and death. Maybe even having a credit card you have for vet emergencies if you don't have a vet who will work with you on the financial issues. Maybe I'm just so affluent, I don't get it. (Yeah, right) But I will not buy animals if I can't take care of them. 

Look, I'm sorry Arklady is hurting. But she needed to hear the truth, which it seems she is still having trouble coming to terms with. She wants to blame everyone else for what's happening with her animals (the vet, the people who live near her, now a bunch of strangers on an internet forum), instead of looking at what she can do to fix it. 

But you know what, she's not the only one. I've been quite alarmed at the number of people who go out and get animals, THEN start looking at information on how to care for them. Getting their animals bred, then a week before their due to kid, starting to read information on how to handle kidding. All the folks who come looking for answers (here and on other boards) because they didn't do any research, reading, asking questions, before they got their animals into trouble. I'm not talking about honest mistakes that everyone makes, I'm talking about complete lack of preparation or planning. I can't believe how often I've seen that in the short time I've had goats. Ok, this is a huge thread drift. Sorry.


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## Dee (May 12, 2002)

Once, I needed Valbazin and only had a few kids (I was afraid of expiration date until Vicki said it was still good for a while after the date) so I called a cow farmer who sold me what I needed for 5 cents per cc. He also had Cydectin but I ended up buying both myself and have had it for a while now.

Just another option.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

homebirtha said:


> > But she needed to hear the truth,
> 
> 
> who gives us the right to judge over some one?
> ...


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Well, didn't you take your nasty pills again today.

What does "rome" mean? 

I'm not judging, but doesn't it bother you when you read about some animal suffering because the new owner didn't bother to learn anything about how to care for them? Guess I'm too soft, but it bugs the heck out of me.

And yes, I was sorry for digressing into other posts from other people. But I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not. 



susanne said:


> homebirtha said:
> 
> 
> > who gives us the right to judge over some one?
> ...


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

missed history class huh?
rome is a very famous city in italy. it is where the vatican is. 
if somebody is saying there are many ways to rome means there are many ways you can do things and because you do it different than arklady does not mean her way is wrong. she may need to go a little bit longer but will arrive there too. maybe you should read diana's post again and undedrstand what she is saying.

there are always people that seem to wait for a situation to come out and judge others for "wrong" doing. would like to be a little mouse to see your management. remind you, nobody is perfect.


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## brierpatch1974 (Sep 28, 2005)

"*does not mean her way is wrong. she may need to go a little bit longer but will arrive there too"* I agree there are many ways to get things done. Some take longer and we learn form them all. 
BUT she has had goats die in the past from the same thing and instead of finding out the problem and fixing it she goes and buys more goats. THAT is irresposible and cruel. She needs to take a step back and look things over. Figure it out and fix it. Then buy Meds she may need then buy the goats.
What has people in here mad is not so much as her Bad methods but the fact that she blames those methods on everyone else. Best thing she can do is get rid of all goats. Sick and healthy ones and start over. Pain in the butt I know but if anyone really cares and is serious about keeping them then they would. Bringing animals into a dangerous enviroment is cruel and punishible by law in most places. 

BP


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

brierpatch1974 said:


> BUT she has had goats die in the past *from the same thing* and instead of finding out the problem and fixing it she goes and buys more goats. THAT is irresposible and cruel.
> BP


i did not read that in this thread. only that some of her animals died because she could not come together with her vet for what ever reason. 
maybe it was in a post weeks ago?


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## Lynne (May 10, 2002)

brierpatch1974 said:


> "*does not mean her way is wrong. she may need to go a little bit longer but will arrive there too"* I agree there are many ways to get things done. Some take longer and we learn form them all.
> BUT she has had goats die in the past from the same thing and instead of finding out the problem and fixing it she goes and buys more goats. THAT is irresposible and cruel. She needs to take a step back and look things over. Figure it out and fix it. Then buy Meds she may need then buy the goats.
> What has people in here mad is not so much as her Bad methods but the fact that she blames those methods on everyone else. Best thing she can do is get rid of all goats. Sick and healthy ones and start over. Pain in the butt I know but if anyone really cares and is serious about keeping them then they would. Bringing animals into a dangerous enviroment is cruel and punishible by law in most places.
> 
> BP


 :clap: :clap: :clap:

She came here asking for advice then went off on a tangent about how no one wanted to help her. Sometimes you have to skip the crap post and just read the ones that _are_ trying to help.


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## brierpatch1974 (Sep 28, 2005)

I guess you missed it so here it is. * "I was hoping I could raise some pygmy goats to get a little extra income, but each one we get seems to die for some unknown  reason. And I do mean up and fine one day, dead the next"*. and it was in this thread.

BP


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## TexCountryWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

Lynn, you are so right. Folks cannot be thin-skinned on a public forum. All kinds of people with all kinds of opinions post here. People from all over the country, and even the world. Each area of the country even has it's own attitude at times. Besides that, it is difficult ti read emotions and tones of voice in most posts. If you are familiar with the poster, you might get the flavour of their response, but not always. There are different educational levels, different ages, different IQs, different experence levels. All these things factor in. The list goes on. There are those who see the glass full, some see it half empty. You have to gleen the advice you take carefully as you don't know who is giving it. Ultimately, this forum is a place where people, in general, likeminded folks can gather and share experiences and information. We are the same, but different. We all want to be respected and our veiwpoints heard. We want a place to vent, we want a place to laugh, to cry, to learn. 

Can't we all just get along?


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Aahhh, Rome, with a capital R. Yeah, that one I know, but not rome with a lower case "r". Did you miss grammar or typing class? lol. Never heard that saying before. Sorry, some of your posts are so disconcerted that I thought maybe you had mistyped or misspelled a word again. Threw me. 

Anyway, I'm not interested in a pi$$ing contest with you, and I certainly never claimed to be perfect. In fact, when I offer advice, I almost always tell someone this is just my experience, others probably have more experience to offer. Which is something you might consider adding to your advice posts too. 

I'm not judging anyone, but I still feel strongly that folks should prepare and have SOME basic information (and know where to go for more info) before getting animals. Guess we'll just have to disagree on that one. 



susanne said:


> missed history class huh?
> rome is a very famous city in italy. it is where the vatican is.
> 
> there are always people that seem to wait for a situation to come out and judge others for "wrong" doing. would like to be a little mouse to see your management. remind you, nobody is perfect.


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## lacesout (Jul 5, 2005)

The expression is "All roads lead to Rome". It is a very old expression based on the fact that the empire's roads all radiated out from it's center - ie Rome. Now taken to mean there are many paths which lead to the same ends.

Many paths to Rome ... but the darn goat is still the one suffering while it gets figured out. Get a vet. If you can't afford it ... you may be able surrender the animal to the nearest Animal Control/Humane Society. Most that I am familiar with will take livestock if it is sick and not being cared for. If the animal is down, not eating, it sounds pretty dire to me. 

Lynn in Mesa County, CO


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

lacesout said:


> The expression is "All roads lead to Rome".


That one I've heard.


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## marcir (Mar 15, 2006)

I really agree with Lynn, a trip to the Humane Society or Rescue Organization may be in order. Alternatively, I would call any nearby Ag College with a Veterinary School and ask for help.


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## KindredSpirit (Feb 16, 2006)

I know her original post was that she didn't like her vet but if you continued to read you could see that the underlying thing was she was worried sick about her goat. Whether or not she should or shouldn't own animals is beside the point. She was needing info on what to do now. She had limited funds and basically wondered what she could do. Couldn't a little compassion have been shown when you told her she needed more than she could provide? Don't you think she knew that? Geez people, it was a cry for :help: I am sure she has given much thought to her economic situation through all of this, she didn't need it pointed out. I have noticed lately that HT folks are getting a bit cranky, maybe it is this heat! :shrug:


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> She had limited funds and basically wondered what she could do.


And when advice was given she then said that she could not afford to get what was needed to treat the goat. IMO she should get rid of the goat. Why ask for advice if you can't get what is needed to treat the animal? She should have said: my goat is sick, the vet won't treat without $$ up front, I have no extra $$ right now, so I am going to sit & watch my goat die. If she knew she did not have the $$ to buy anything, then why seek advice? Most anything that is causing a goat to be so sick is going to take $$ to get them well.


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## KindredSpirit (Feb 16, 2006)

Wendy said:


> And when advice was given she then said that she could not afford to get what was needed to treat the goat. IMO she should get rid of the goat. Why ask for advice if you can't get what is needed to treat the animal? She should have said: my goat is sick, the vet won't treat without $$ up front, I have no extra $$ right now, so I am going to sit & watch my goat die. If she knew she did not have the $$ to buy anything, then why seek advice? Most anything that is causing a goat to be so sick is going to take $$ to get them well.


I hope you never need anyone to show you compassion. Remember people, your spirit is showing, christian or not.


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## Bluebutterfly (Jul 17, 2005)

This whole post should be removed. Is there any reason why you guys are still fighting over this?
Bluebutterfly


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## APPway (May 27, 2005)

Hi Arklady
Not gonna get into this Mess 
Just was wondering How the Goat is Hope it is better and Vicki was able to help

APPway


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## TexCountryWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

"All we are saying is give peace a chance"..........the Beatles


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## KindredSpirit (Feb 16, 2006)

APPway said:


> Hi Arklady
> Not gonna get into this Mess
> Just was wondering How the Goat is Hope it is better and Vicki was able to help
> 
> APPway


Her goat died. Don't worry, I am not going to get into any arguments over this. Moving on.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

KindredSpirit said:


> It died. Don't worry, I am not going to get into any arguments over this. Moving on.


very sorry to hear that


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

That is disheartening to hear. Ark Lady, I am very sorry for your loss and hope things start to turn arond for you.


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## orphy (Feb 27, 2006)

you folks really have turned me off to this forum. I am sorry for you. Very, very sorry arklady, I know it is hard to loose your goat. I know mine are like my family and I really hope your luck changes. Hang in there and I will talk to you soon.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

I am so sorry you lost your goat


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## Shahbazin (Dec 10, 2002)

FWIW, I've found the book, "Where There Is No Vet" (from Lehman's) to be an excellent investment; really, no vets around here really want anything to do w/poultry, sheep, or goats (they don't know anything about them, just pets & horses), & I do as much of the dog treatment as I can. I think one does have to look at one's situation realistically, too; due to the recent birth of my DD, we are a single income family right now, & I sold my turkeys, ducks, geese, show chickens, plus some sheep I'd have rather kept; I just kept a small laying flock, a few sheep & 1 goat, & our dogs - that is all we can afford right now.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I am also very sorry her goat died. I did not mean to sound mean in my posts. I am just trying to point out how very important it is to have the items you need on hand when one gets sick. Goats are funny. They are usually very sick before you realize it & therefore you do not have much of a time frame to get them well. That is why it is important to have things on hand to treat them. ESPECIALLY if your vet is a jerk. I am just curious why she would ask for advice knowing she had no $$ to get anything. We can not help if a person does not have anything on hand for treatment or any $$ to treat them. If she were close to me I would have gladly helped her out & given her what she needed to treat the goat. I have done that a lot for other people.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

I am so sorry that Arklady's goat died...sometimes no matter what the resources or money available this will still happen...


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## KindredSpirit (Feb 16, 2006)

ArkLady, I PM'd you.


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## pourfolkes (Jul 1, 2005)

I can not believe how mean spirited some of you on this board have become. Someone asking for the advice of an experienced person does not excuse being judgemental and downright ugly to people. In fact, you should all be flattered that she came to this board for advice. I just started with goats last October. I knew NOTHING about goats, nothing at all. Do you know where I went for advice? HERE.... because I was told how helpful and knowledgable you all are about goats, etc. I had no clue what kind of expense I was in for. So, little by little, I have built up the supplies that I keep on hand for emergencies. Why did she ask for advice when she has no money???? I will tell you why. Alot of times, there are things that you folks have told people to do, including me, that don't cost money. For example: Baking Soda is so cheap and yet, can save a goat's life. I would not have known that were it not for some the folks on this board... In fact, it did save the goat's life. None of us knows when we might be without alot of funds... I for one lost everything in hurricane Katrina, so I can understand it. At any rate, instead of being judgemental and rude, you all should have been supportive and helpful as you have been with me. It is obvious that she does care, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have $$ available the second that you need it, and I don't feel that the purpose of this board is to judge others, something that has been going on alot lately. It is sad to see because most of the members of HT are warm, compassionate, helpful folks.
IMHO


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## cayenne47 (Nov 7, 2004)

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: pourfolkes


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

pourfolkes said:


> I can not believe how mean spirited some of you on this board have become. Someone asking for the advice of an experienced person does not excuse being judgemental and downright ugly to people. In fact, you should all be flattered that she came to this board for advice. I just started with goats last October. I knew NOTHING about goats, nothing at all. Do you know where I went for advice? HERE.... because I was told how helpful and knowledgable you all are about goats, etc. I had no clue what kind of expense I was in for. So, little by little, I have built up the supplies that I keep on hand for emergencies. Why did she ask for advice when she has no money???? I will tell you why. Alot of times, there are things that you folks have told people to do, including me, that don't cost money. For example: Baking Soda is so cheap and yet, can save a goat's life. I would not have known that were it not for some the folks on this board... In fact, it did save the goat's life. None of us knows when we might be without alot of funds... I for one lost everything in hurricane Katrina, so I can understand it. At any rate, instead of being judgemental and rude, you all should have been supportive and helpful as you have been with me. It is obvious that she does care, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have $$ available the second that you need it, and I don't feel that the purpose of this board is to judge others, something that has been going on alot lately. It is sad to see because most of the members of HT are warm, compassionate, helpful folks.
> IMHO


 Well said. :rock: :rock: :rock: I have been on vacation for a week and boy what a thread to come back too. I am very sorry she lost her goat. Like someone said I do believe she just wanted to vent, and you all have given TONS of WONDERFUL advice that was cheap or free, I think that is all she was looking for.
ARKLADY, my prayers go out to you and your family. Hope things start looking up for you.


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## pourfolkes (Jul 1, 2005)

Exactly my point!! When I decided to get goats, I had no clue what I was getting into.... One of the goats I bought was 4 months pregnant. Now, keep in mind that I had NO IDEA what was involved. When I got her home, I said to myself, "What the hell was I thinking?????" I was in a total panic. There is a woman, who is a member of this site that I had met on another site. I have never seen her face to face, but she is now my best friend. She has spent countless hours on the phone with me listening to my silly questions, giving freely of herself, her experience and her advice. When my doe was due, she even kept her cell phone with her at all times, wherever she was in case I needed her advice. Turns out I did need her advice, the third kid was dead and the neck was turned back so the doe could not deliver it. This woman stayed on the phone with me the whole time and talked my through the whole thing. To this day, I call her with questions and she is more than happy to help. Was she gaining anything from this? Other than helping someone, no. I told her that I must be nuts and did she rub it in and say..."if you don't know what to do, you don't need goats"? Nope, she encouraged me every step and said we all have to start somewhere. That is what I would have expected from the folks here. It is not for us to judge but to help where we can. Vicky did not scold her, she offered to send her some medicine to help. Criticizing makes it worse and certainly does not help the goat. I have to say that I am very disappointed in alot of people and I am thankful that when I was just starting out I was not treated this way. Were you all born knowing everything? No, we all have to learn. Whether or not she can or can not afford a vet is not the point, the fact is she can not afford one, so now, onto the next thing which is drawing from the awesome knowledge base here at HT. And contrary to what some are saying, there are times when there is a very inexpensive solution, it does not alwayes equate to money..... "nuff said"


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## MorrisonCorner (Jul 27, 2004)

Well, I'm glad I came into this on the end because my advice would have been "shoot the goat and get what meat you can off it..." because we don't have access to a large animal vet either. And if an animal is going down like that we move from "try and save" into "salvage what you can" pretty quickly.

Bummer she lost the goat though.


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## pourfolkes (Jul 1, 2005)

Yes, I agree.... there comes a point where you have to salvage what you can. We don't have a vet here either for goats. A shame really, but you have to work with what you have, not what you wish you had...


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

Again the thread is "My Vet is a Jerk" She did not title this thread help me with this goat. That's where she got off on the wrong foot with most people. IMO


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

Dang and I promised myself I wouldn't say anymore.


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

> It is not for us to judge but to help where we can.


With all due respect, I disagree, with the judging part. We do judge each other, not always correctly or appropriately, but when a person puts out their situation and asks for help, judging is part of the act of helping. How it is done, with vitriol or with compassion, is in a way less important than the facts that are being weighed.

I had a dog put down for a medical problem that, in retrospect, was unnecessary. On another forum, I was BLASTED for six pages. It hurt like heck, but I found myself reading each post, wanting to shoot back this excuse or that one, but something in me responded to their feedback, as it was. Turns out, I actually agreed with them in my heart. Instead of getting defensive and "nasty right back", which is what Arklady did, I had to ask myself why so many people had the SAME POINT OF VIEW. Perhaps I was wrong? I was wrong. DH and I have an agreement now about veterinary bills and services we both agree on now. And I have to live with deciding to end this dog's life for no good reason.

Perhaps it was none of their business, but I posted the topic and gave the details. What I get back is not under my control. Sometimes, the right thing to do is chastise someone or firmly and with conviction, JUDGE them. We all do it every day. C'mon.

Arklady CHOSE to respond as she did, which was to reject advice to take a long hard look at her ability to take care of goats with her very limited means. It wasn't given to help her goat NOW, but to help future goats or animals. Granted, the timing would have made anyone defensive, but she continued to be to the point of very angry and sarcastic responses. It made her look pretty self-absorbed. 

I was appalled at her response, she missed the whole point. So did a lot of other people who felt sorry for her. I too feel bad for her, but that does NOT excuse the facts, she has severe monetary restraints and it is impacting the lives of her animals which she obviously needs and loves, and cannot provide necessary care for. That is nothing to be ashamed of, as many in this thread have posted, selling or butchering their stock due to loss of income. To me, that is incredibly brave and unselfish, and, it is the responsible decent thing to do.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Amen!! The knee jerk reaction of the "poor Arklady" crowd was getting ridiculous...


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## homebirtha (Feb 19, 2004)

Idahoe said:


> I was appalled at her response, she missed the whole point. So did a lot of other people who felt sorry for her. I too feel bad for her, but that does NOT excuse the facts, she has severe monetary restraints and it is impacting the lives of her animals which she obviously needs and loves, and cannot provide necessary care for. That is nothing to be ashamed of, as many in this thread have posted, selling or butchering their stock due to loss of income. To me, that is incredibly brave and unselfish, and, it is the responsible decent thing to do.


Idahoe hits the nail on the head. There was a lot of good advice given to Arklady, about how to treat this animal, but just as importantly, that she needed to address the underlying reasons that her goats keep dying. She didn't want to hear, got nasty, told us to shut up, and basically, only give her advice if we didn't say anything negative about her care that caused the problems. I'm still astonished at anyone who would say they would keep their animals, even if they didn't have the money to care for them AT ALL, because "everyone in America is entitled to have animals no matter what"!!! If circumstances came up that meant I couldn't care for my animals properly, I would absolutely find another home for them. I wouldn't let my animals suffer because I didn't want "to be lonely". That is just selfish, and frankly, I think "I can't afford it" is sometimes just a convenient excuse for improper care. If someone can afford to have a computer and internet access, they should be able to buy a bottle of wormer and other basics of goat care, so their animals don't have to suffer.


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## brierpatch1974 (Sep 28, 2005)

Amen homebirtha. 

Bp


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