# Fodder??



## Bubbas Boys (Apr 11, 2013)

Just learning about this whole fodder thing. I know I want to do it with our layers but wondering if it can be used for baby chicks and also Cornish cross birds? Any other tips would be great. Thanks.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Bubbas Boys said:


> Just learning about this whole fodder thing. I know I want to do it with our layers but wondering if it can be used for baby chicks and also Cornish cross birds? Any other tips would be great. Thanks.


 Yes it can be done with all, and they will appreciate it. I grow some greens to give them. I find that less labor intensive, but what you would be giving them will be good for them. 

What you will be feeding them is young grass (if you are sprouting grains).


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## Bubbas Boys (Apr 11, 2013)

Could u feed fodder and no other grain? They will be free range layers and pasture boilers in tractors. Thanks


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

Bubbas Boys said:


> Could u feed fodder and no other grain? They will be free range layers and pasture boilers in tractors. Thanks


 
Not as their only food-----there is not enough in fodder to make them grow like they should. Not saying that they would die on just fodder-----would just end up stunted/slow growth compaired to a chick on a good high protien commercial starter feed.

There are so many debates on fodder----I personally feel the greens is good for the animals, but as far as being "better" than the grain you started with-----I do not have the equipment or knowledge to test it to get My Own facts! I grow many things for the animals in the dirt, and I know the animals get more out of it than fodder-----just harder to collect.

I feel you need to study fodder, and do What you feel you want to do as far as growing it or not. I feel for Sure there is nothing bad about it, just not sure at this time---if the extra work to grow it is worth it. 

Having said all that----There is alot of things that Might Not Be Worth my time I put in it, but If I lived in a area where the chickens/animals did not get some greens in the winter---I would have a Big Fodder set-up going. I shut mine down this past spring because I had stepped up my garden greens and I got enough growing---I am not growing fodder.


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## our ochre way (Feb 14, 2014)

were about to start our fodder process with our flock. We are going to add a tsp or so of kelp and rock dust to each batch right before we feed them to boost the nutrient value of the feed, birds, eggs and most importantly, manure.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...nics/445673-hydroponic-fodder-production.html

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/poultry/505662-fodder-ducks.html

Two recent threads on fodder production. Worth checking out.

IMO yes, you could feed a 100% fodder diet and your birds will be alright. But the Dry weight nutrients VS the Wet mass nutrient availability argument doesn't look like it will be resolved soon.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

If chickens are fed on fodder alone, they will not be as they could be. 

Do not try to make anything do too much. 

Sprouting grain for livestock is nothing new. It has been done for a long time, to come back up to the surface. It's value has been recognized for a long time, but it is no magical feed ingredient.

The old adage (that I go by) was, before three days feed AS PART OF the grain portion and after feed as greens. 

A good way to know is feed two pens side by side. Feed a commercial ration in one, and fodder alone in the other. It will not take long to see. Document your results accurately and share for others to see.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

I grew some small trays of wheat fodder this winter just to give the chooks something green and something extra to do/eat on those frigid heavy snow days they couldn't get out of the coop. I kept it simple, just some small trays hand watered once a day, cut up the mat into small pieces spread around the coop.

There's a _lot_ of discussion on pros and cons, mostly pros which I think are somewhat exaggerated...like the wet vs dry advantage. But I believe it does boost the nutrients of the grain and the green portion cannot be a bad thing. There's a lot to learn by experience, grain type and source, mold issues, temps, watering frequency, etc.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

aart said:


> I grew some small trays of wheat fodder this winter just to give the chooks something green and something extra to do/eat on those frigid heavy snow days they couldn't get out of the coop. I kept it simple, just some small trays hand watered once a day, cut up the mat into small pieces spread around the coop.
> 
> There's a _lot_ of discussion on pros and cons, mostly pros which I think are somewhat exaggerated...like the wet vs dry advantage. But I believe it does boost the nutrients of the grain and the green portion cannot be a bad thing. There's a lot to learn by experience, grain type and source, mold issues, temps, watering frequency, etc.


 What you have in that tray will have a lot of vitamins and minerals, and some digestible protein. It would be very nutritious. It will be very short on energy, one because for chickens it has been grown to long. That tray would be better used by rabbits. 
It certainly could be put to good use with the birds though. It would be even better if it was combined with whole grains, and freshly sprouted grains. Then balanced with animal protein. 

Remember this. A chickens heart rate is around 250-275. For us that would be fatal. Your heart would pump so inefficiently that your blood pressure would drop drastically. You could maintain that if your heart was healthy for a short period of time, but not for long. 
There metabolisms are very very high. They NEED a lot of energy. There is not a lot of energy in that tray. Not enough for chickens. 

There is a reason that 60-70% of what Red Jungle Fowl eat is to meet their energy requirements. 60% of that is in the stored energy of seeds.


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## Dr_aplet (Mar 31, 2013)

I'm considering this for our little farm.
Just chiming in on available energy, it seems that with the conventional system has a digestibility of about 30- 40% and 19%protein
The sprouting system produces about 80% digestibility with about 14% protein. in the protein department the critter would be able to access more of the proteins not including the amino acids. 
Secondly its my understanding that birds will store the grain in their crop until it spouts 8-24 hours later. I am bumping this post because i am interested in using this system even selling the product to organic farmers. This really could as at least a supplement for organic farmers bring the cost down a little. 

 some links attached to this site
Has anyone used fodder for at least a year?


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

I haven't used it for a full year, as I rotate my bird's feeds with the seasons and their purpose. But I've always thought barley had a 15% protein level before sprouting? The starting grain has a lot to do with it. If you're concerned about protein levels, how about sprouting black oil sunflower seeds? Starting at 28% protein, that should give you enough of a margin for any loss.


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## GreenMomma (Jun 3, 2008)

I feed fodder to our rabbits now, not as their primary feed, but as a part of the whole system  Our chickens get any root mats left over and a handful of fodder now. This month we'll be transitioning our chickens (a flock of 20) over to a diet of fodder (but probably feeding on day 5 or 6 since I'm a little concerned about what I've been reading on impacted crops). 

I am adding peas, lentils and BOSS to the grain (I switch between barley, oats and rye berries depending on what is most affordable and in season). From what I've read, at this point I'm pretty confident in this plan to provide comprehensive nutrition since they free range all day. They can get all the bugs and hunt down other nutrients as needed. 

I am also planning on keeping their organic layer pellets in the feed program, but just today started a fermenting bucket. I'm hoping to cut their consumption by fermenting to add to the nutrients. I can't honestly say I understand how that works yet, but everything I can find online with various blogs and articles written by people that run WAY more chickens than we do looks like we can reduce consumption by around 30% just by fermenting. 

I'm going to go that route while we transition the flock to sprouted feed and hope that we don't see a reduction in production.

Most of the info I've seen seems like the protein and nutrients are nearly doubled in fodder vs. the dry grain. Again, something I don't quite understand yet, but am trying to learn 

Fermenting feed might be great for your needs- reducing the amount of commercial feed while feeding out chicks and broilers... ?


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

gjensen said:


> What you have in that tray will have a lot of vitamins and minerals, and some digestible protein. It would be very nutritious. It will be very short on energy, one because for chickens it has been grown to long. That tray would be better used by rabbits.
> It certainly could be put to good use with the birds though. It would be even better if it was combined with whole grains, and freshly sprouted grains. Then balanced with animal protein.
> 
> Remember this. A chickens heart rate is around 250-275. For us that would be fatal. Your heart would pump so inefficiently that your blood pressure would drop drastically. You could maintain that if your heart was healthy for a short period of time, but not for long.
> ...


Yes, that particular tray is day 7, I usually give it to them on day 5 or 6. I'm only using it for some additional greens, they get a pretty good balance of other good foods, including animal protein and fats. They clean it all up except the root mass, most of that gets left to dry into the bedding.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

aart said:


> Yes, that particular tray is day 7, I usually give it to them on day 5 or 6. I'm only using it for some additional greens, they get a pretty good balance of other good foods, including animal protein and fats. They clean it all up except the root mass, most of that gets left to dry into the bedding.


 And sprouts are good for that. You will never hear me say that they are bad. There just seams to be a trend in exaggerating their benefit to poultry. 

Chickens also would benefit more when the sprouts are on the younger side. The grass from grains anyways. 

I tend to emphasize that from experience. The grasses that grow well in my poor sandy soils that both tolerate the drought and our humidity, are rather coarse and fibrous. Unless the growth is kept short, well watered, and fertilized it is useless for my birds. They will eat some, but not a lot. They will eat less if they have access to something better. 

Frankly grass itself tends to be overrated with chickens. Some grasses being better than others. They just are not made to perform best with high fiber diets. The best grasses are the most tender, sweet, and digestible. Young edible broad leaf plants tend to be better, and those that are sprouting are best. 

I am a believer in tender greens. The old saying was that if you could not bring greens to your birds every day, then you should not have them. This was before we had access to the excellent feeds that we have today, but I think there is still value in the saying. I see it in my birds concerning condition. Though what I feed has all that they need, they still seam better for it. 

I think there is something to be said for food that is alive.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

GreenMomma said:


> I feed fodder to our rabbits now, not as their primary feed, but as a part of the whole system  Our chickens get any root mats left over and a handful of fodder now. This month we'll be transitioning our chickens (a flock of 20) over to a diet of fodder (but probably feeding on day 5 or 6 since I'm a little concerned about what I've been reading on impacted crops).
> 
> I am adding peas, lentils and BOSS to the grain (I switch between barley, oats and rye berries depending on what is most affordable and in season). From what I've read, at this point I'm pretty confident in this plan to provide comprehensive nutrition since they free range all day. They can get all the bugs and hunt down other nutrients as needed.
> 
> ...


 I read some studies in commercial layers fed fermented feed. While the birds were adapting to the new diet, there was a drop in performance. After an adjustment period production levels picked back up and were equal to the control groups. The benefit being that they did eat less feed, and by as much as 20%. 

In home flocks there tends to be more waste, possibly adding to the potential savings. 

My theories behind the claims has a few points. 

One, there is less waste when a bird is fed all it wants once per day and allowed to range. 
The water used to ferment the feed adds volume, reducing the amount eaten at a single sitting.
The fermentation process essentially starts the digestion process ahead of time, making the feed more digestible and nutrients more available. 
The altered ph, and surplus of good bacteria etc. aid in the digestion process. 

I have wondered if soaking the feed overnight and adding probiotics (or using feed with it already present) would not offer a similar result.


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## Dr_aplet (Mar 31, 2013)

It would seem that there are 2 conversations happening side by side because people are using similar terminology. I think the original conversation was concerning Hydroponic fodder and gjensen is talking about fermenting feed. 

Hydroponic fodder takes cereal grains and sprouts them to about 6-8 days and can be fed to most farm animals at a lower cost than traditional feed. Herbivore critters are purported to thrive compared to dry grain feeds which they do not process completely. 

Fermenting seems to remove much of the anti-nutrients like Phytates that are in grains as well as improving digestibility. 

Is my understanding of this conversation accurate?


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Dr_aplet said:


> It would seem that there are 2 conversations happening side by side because people are using similar terminology. I think the original conversation was concerning Hydroponic fodder and gjensen is talking about fermenting feed.
> 
> Hydroponic fodder takes cereal grains and sprouts them to about 6-8 days and can be fed to most farm animals at a lower cost than traditional feed. Herbivore critters are purported to thrive compared to dry grain feeds which they do not process completely.
> 
> ...


 Aplet, if you look closer, I was only commenting on a poster's plan of incorporating the two together. I felt that it was relevant to share the conclusions that I have come to.

It is not off topic to discuss how one might incorporate fodder into a larger plan, and then would be relevant to discuss what that other part is. That is part of balancing the ration. Fodder being unable to contribute all that the bird needs, it is helpful to get a feel for what would work best with the fodder, or what fodder might work best with. 

Again these ideas are not new. These ideas are new to a suddenly expanded group of people that keep poultry. Both of these items have been being done for over a hundred years, and some variations of it for hundreds of years. 

I first started exploring these things 25 years ago, and have seriously been breeding poultry for two decades. I thought, maybe mistakenly, they the conclusions that I came to could at least offer a particular perspective. That was all that was intended. A shared perspective. There was no scientific data included. I could carry on a conversation of that type, but I was just illustrating a point of view.

I do not want to confuse the matter, so I will leave this one alone.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

fodder is most certainly not lower cost if you factor in your labor. According to one Australian study, sprouts cost 2 to 5 times the original cost of the dry grain.
You lose dry matter which means you are basically trading actual feed for water and the loss in energy from the sprouting process leave the sprouting thing off the table for me.
I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be.


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## GreenMomma (Jun 3, 2008)

gjenson- I hope you don't leave this one alone  I thought the original poster's question was great, as I've never seen it posed before. Lot's of people trying fodder, but I've not really had any conversation as to if it could be done (well) with chicks or broilers. I would love to be able to use fodder more comprehensively for my flock, but only if I can find the right complimenting elements to make it healthy and successful. Your input has been very helpful, as I've only been raising chickens for a couple of years. 

Sorry if I took the conversation in the wrong direction- I was just trying to help add some other ideas that might help make fodder a possibility for chickens that don't get as many nutrients from free ranging.


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## Dr_aplet (Mar 31, 2013)

gjensen, I certainly was not intending any offense. I thought that i was trying to clarify what process was being spoken of in the original question since there were some responses toward the top of the post that were unclear about what process was being spoken of. I am glad to see this issue being discussed I certainly am investigating this myself. 

sammyd you bring up a good question, Dry Mater... I have read many posts and white papers on this it seems that the standard is measured in dry matter. That only makes sense in the math world and conventional farming. Here is one thing that i might not understand. see if my math works at all on this...
take a kg (easy math) of dry barley. generally speaking grains are only 30% digestible, now feed that to you animals, now compare that same kg of barley is sprouted and consumed which is 80% digestible minus 18% DM loss in the sprouting. 
Dry feed 1kg. x 30% = 30g uptake
fodder 1kg -18%= 82g x 80% = 66g uptake. (not including any carbon increase or synthesis or nutrient value gained out of the water impurities).
is this right?


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Looks like I might have carried away. I will be a little more careful. I apologize. 

But really, I do not want to confuse the matter. I am in a different place on the subject.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

This is a subject I am interested in and I am interested in all the aspects of it - how well fodder works for those that have used it over time. Is it enough alone? Do the birds benefit from a diet of fodder mixed with other inputs? If so, what other inputs make for a more optimal feed. Please do all keep the conversation going. 

Common sense says that any one feed is likely to be less beneficial than a mix of feeds. I'm sure that green living feed is good for animals and I suspect that they are better off having other feed sources available. 

Has anyone used fermenting with ducks? Their digestion is different than chickens, so is it a good idea for them or not? (I am confident that fodder would add to their diet, they love green food!)

Another thread drift... any ideas on animal protein and fats for winter feed? (I apologize in advance for any confusion my questions cause!)


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Carol, just view it as it is. It is sprouted grains (grass) allowed to green out. This grass is just at it's most nutritious and digestible stage of it's growth. My opinion, if not allowed to grow to long, it could be fed up to 20% of their diet. (just an opinion)

You could expand the benefit by feeding them grains that are freshly sprouted as part of the grain ration. It will still have much of the energy content, and will be more digestible than the whole grain. Not fodder but freshly sprouted grains.

Like this, you are getting two ingredients out of one. 

That said there was a North Korean study that fed a group 100% bamboo leaves and compared them to control groups. The bamboo fed birds did survive, but they did not thrive or were productive. So I imagine that fodder fed birds would do a little better than that. 
Upon dissection they found that the intestines were longer than that of the control group. The birds did partially adapt to the diet. 

Birds fed whole grains tend to have larger gizzards. Obviously with exercise a muscle grows larger and stronger. I have to conclude that they would grind more effectively. 

Just a consideration, because you are looking for balance.

To me older sprouts are excellent (not to old), but are not as significant where a bird has access to quality green forage. Considering the labor, etc. For confined birds, it could certainly benefit them. But considering the labor involved, could you raise and feed them greens instead? Much of the talk about the studies rarely include comparing them to alternatives. Let's say growing clover and rape? 

I plant a deer forage mix of rye, chicory, rape, and clover. I bring some to the penned birds, and I allow the birds let out to range to hustle up their own. The rye grass that I over seed their "pasture with" stays young and tender throughout the winter.

You see where I am going. I would however, be much more likely to go this route if I lived in the North where it is too cold for winter greens. Then the idea makes much more sense to me. 

Geese could utilize the fodder even more than chickens. I do not know ducks, but I am guessing they would be in between the two. 

Oil seeds are good for adding fat to their diet all year round. If you live up north, fresh greens (fodder) every day, and a little cod liver oil occasionally is helpful. They are not getting the greens or the sunshine they would get in other seasons. 

Animal protein is a little goes a long ways. Processed organ meat is an option. Milk as part of the ration is an option. Extra eggs (which you are not as likely to have in the winter). Insects and insect larvae stored for winter is thinking outside the box, but has potential. 
If you are processing other animals, it would be easy to supply. 

Just some thoughts.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I was wondering about other sprouts for the ducks, or even growing other plants as or in fodder. There are months here where there is very little green or forage available. My ducks are out in a large yard during most days, but everything is either covered in snow (then they don't go out and forage at all, but sit and fluff up) or pretty dry and dead in the winter. The ducks like some grass, but are a lot more interested in baby broadleaf greens - they eat a lot of the weeds out of the lawn for instance. 

Could the deer forage mix be sprouted in the house and fed as a green supplement? I'd think the more variety the healthier (as long as none of it is toxic to ducks). 

Also I've wondered if anyone has tried feeding ducks a measure of nice leafy alfalfa - do they eat it or just waste it? 

Mostly at this time I feed a commercial ration and they seem to do fine on it, but I like the idea of giving them a more natural diet at least in part. I'd also like to cut costs some if I can. 

We don't really live on a farm or homestead, we live in a small rural town. We have about 3/4 of an acre, the ducks do get a large yard to forage in, but it's not free range. My only "livestock" are my ducks, which I keep for eggs and entertainment, so I am not processing any other animals.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> I was wondering about other sprouts for the ducks, or even growing other plants as or in fodder. There are months here where there is very little green or forage available. My ducks are out in a large yard during most days, but everything is either covered in snow (then they don't go out and forage at all, but sit and fluff up) or pretty dry and dead in the winter. The ducks like some grass, but are a lot more interested in baby broadleaf greens - they eat a lot of the weeds out of the lawn for instance.
> 
> Could the deer forage mix be sprouted in the house and fed as a green supplement? I'd think the more variety the healthier (as long as none of it is toxic to ducks).
> 
> ...


 With your arraignments sprouting seed sounds like a good option. I hope that I do not come across as being against it. 
I am in a sense doing it myself. I just put the seed in the ground instead of a tray. 

The forage mixes should work well. You would have to evaluate cost. It is easy to get spending more on supplements than you would have the feed. It would seam that you would want to grow such a mix farther into maturity to get your money's worth. You do not want to use treated seed in a tray. (I do not think)

I would say where you are, and your situation, go for it. the birds would appreciate it. Like I said, you can carry it to two different stages, and feed two ingredients in one. 

I do not know about the saving money part. Depends on what you can get your grain for. 

Fermenting feed works. It should save you a little. If it is worth the labor to you. 

There is nothing wrong with any of these things. As long as we do not try to get them to do too much. 

And I have very little experience with ducks.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Oh, one thing I forgot about is wheat. I live in wheat country and can sometimes get it free - grain elevator sweepings - or very cheap. I know Dave Holderread mentioned wheat based mixes for ducks in his book. Now I'm feeling a bit foolish, I have a bag of wheat just sitting there I could be sprouting. I doubt I'll go all out fodder with it, but I'll bet either as sprouts or fodder (or both) it would be a great additive to their diet. Time to find some containers for growing it! 

They grow barley and oats around here too. Not so sure where I'd find them, as I think most farmers store theirs on their farms. Hay is another crop with irrigated alfalfa being grown for the horse market. I guess I'll have to look around a bit more... I get so hibernated in the winter myself!  Maybe I should be sprouting things for our salads!


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> Oh, one thing I forgot about is wheat. I live in wheat country and can sometimes get it free - grain elevator sweepings - or very cheap. I know Dave Holderread mentioned wheat based mixes for ducks in his book. Now I'm feeling a bit foolish, I have a bag of wheat just sitting there I could be sprouting. I doubt I'll go all out fodder with it, but I'll bet either as sprouts or fodder (or both) it would be a great additive to their diet. Time to find some containers for growing it!
> 
> They grow barley and oats around here too. Not so sure where I'd find them, as I think most farmers store theirs on their farms. Hay is another crop with irrigated alfalfa being grown for the horse market. I guess I'll have to look around a bit more... I get so hibernated in the winter myself!  Maybe I should be sprouting things for our salads!


 That is where these things make more sense. Having access to an opportunity like that. If you can get your hands on wheat that easily, you can sprout some, make some fodder, and give them some whole grains. 

Soaked oats is excellent chicken feed. I soak them to separate the hulls. Oats is closer to complete than wheat. The fiber is the hang up, but when the hulls are removed . . . 

You can grind alfalfa and make leaf meal.

Here you can find grain to buy by the drum. 

Just do not pay more than your feed or let anything be too much. Play with one thing at a time, and keep your eyes and hands on the birds. They will tell you what is working and not. 

A little calf manna can help balance supplements.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I had access a couple of years ago to a homemade feed by a farmer that was carefully formulated and used GMO free sources. He worked hard at it and balanced it with supplements. It was in a ground grain format. I tried it for my ducks, it was very reasonable in price. Unfortunately, they did not like it and did poorly on it. I chose to go back to the commercial feed that they'd been doing well on. 

It's my gut feeling they'd do better with more green feed, esp. in the winter. A certain amount of green growing things is natural for them, though it seems likely they make do on dry grass and seed in the winter as they migrate. My chubby friends won't be doing any flying though, much less migration! 

I also treat them in early spring with Ivermectin because the wild starlings come to my duck water and bring bird lice with them every winter. Since I have open water for the ducks to bathe in whenever possible, I can't keep the wild birds out, so I know I'm going to see reduced weight and poor feathers if I don't treat them. 

I totally agree that knowing your livestock (or pets for that matter) and what is normal and what is healthy is primary in keeping them in good condition and productivity.


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