# No Baking stone??



## Queen Bee

I don't have a baking stone but would love to bake some artisian bread--can I just pop them on a cookie sheet?


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## 3ravens

Yep, but the bottom crust won't be quite the same. You soak the baking stone in water to release steam into the oven. So put a pan of water in the bottom of the oven to mimic this.


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## RVcook

A lot depends on your oven. Maybe it'll be crisp...maybe it wont...

Next time you go to a large hardware store, check out unglazed quarry tile and buy a few to use as a baking stone substitute. I can get two rows of 3 tiles on the bottom rack of my oven and I just leave them in there. Plenty of room for air circulation around the edges and when you want the crisp bottom on bread or pizza, just place your dough onto a cornmeal dusted pizza peel or separate cookie sheet bottom and then just "shake" the dough off onto the preheated tiles. Works great.

RVcook


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## Marcia in MT

I found something better than cornmeal: parchment paper! No more cornmeal all over everything, and the paper is reusable a couple of times. We are eating a lot more homemade pizza because of this.


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## fin29

I'm famous for by baguettes, so I can definitely answer this question. Use a rimless baking sheet in the oven, and let it heat with the oven. When you shape your dough to rise, shape it on a floured or cornmealed piece of *foil* and let it rise on either another rimless baking sheet, cutting board, or bread peel--something that will let it slide off. When it's time to bake, put three ice cubes and 1/4c. water in a glass, open the door, slide the bread (still on the foil) onto the hot pan, throw the ice cubes and water onto the floor of the oven (or into a rimmed small tray on the floor of the oven if you're using gas), and shut the door. For baguettes, I bake at 450 for 20-25 minutes and then lower to 400 until internal temp reaches 200 degrees. 

I've never heard of soaking a stone before baking on it. In commercial bakeries, they use steam injection ovens so that you have a brief burst of steam for about 5 minutes and then dry heat for crust formation. I would think that a wet stone would adversely affect crust formation.


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## AnnieOakley

I used my baking stone for many years and when I used it for the artisian bread it broke.  
I'll have to buy another.


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## Jeff54321

Letting a rimless baking sheet preheat in the oven sounds like a good idea when no stone is available.

Unglazed quarry tile works very well. I would not soak the tile or a stone. 

Steaming can be done in the home oven by putting 4 oz of water directly on the floor of an electric oven or preheating a cast iron pan or shallow broiler pan on a gas oven floor and then putting water in it just as you put the dough in the oven.


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## woodsman

I used quarry tiles, even bricks. Baking stone is just more convenient The point of the baking stone is to release the heat stored in it during preheating so the dough would bloom from the bottom inside and up. Cookie sheet won't provide the similar effect as it will equalize the temp with the dough too fast.


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## suzyhomemaker09

I use quarry tiles in my oven all the time..I also have never heard of soaking stones when baking. I usually let my oven preheat for almost an hour when baking pizza so the stones actually come to temperature rather than just relying on the preset time of the preheat cycle on my oven. As for steam I use a pie plate with water in it on the bottom rack when baking.


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## fin29

woodsman said:


> The point of the baking stone is to release the heat stored in it during preheating so the dough would bloom from the bottom inside and up. Cookie sheet won't provide the similar effect as it will equalize the temp with the dough too fast.


Actually, the point of a baking stone is to absorb moisture when baking to produce a crisper crust. And really, when you get down to brass tacks, the laws of thermodynamics don't support your argument that a metal pan will equalize the temp. too fast, based on heat capacity and thermal conductivity. The thick stone has more heat capacity but lower conductivity versus the thin metal with a lower heat capacity and a higher conductivity, such that--provided both have been properly preheated in the oven--the net effect on the bread rise is negligable at best. In addition, the point of putting your bread onto a preheated surface is to facilitate INSTANT bottom skin formation to provide a base for your oven spring, and whether that's a stone or a pan, as long as it's hot, it'll do the trick. You put steam or water into the oven during the first 1/3 of the baking time to retard the top and side skin formation.

The real allure of stones for commercial bakeries is their heat retention, meaning less energy costs over time. It's actually all of the other steps--the steam injection, the moisture venting during the last 10 or 15 minutes, the dough production process itself--that makes the real difference in the final product.


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## Solace Farm

Here's another vote for using tile - but instead of using multiple small tiles, I found a 16" (I think, possibly 18") square tile at Lowe's, it just fits in the bottom rack of my oven, and it was well under $2. I just leave it in there all the time, if I want to pop a casserole or chicken or something in before the oven finishes preheating, it doesn't burn on the bottom because the tile absorbs/blocks the direct heat.


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## woodsman

fin29 said:


> Actually, the point of a baking stone is to absorb moisture when baking to produce a crisper crust. And really, when you get down to brass tacks, the laws of thermodynamics don't support your argument that a metal pan will equalize the temp. too fast, based on heat capacity and thermal conductivity. The thick stone has more heat capacity but lower conductivity versus the thin metal with a lower heat capacity and a higher conductivity, such that--provided both have been properly preheated in the oven--the net effect on the bread rise is negligable at best. In addition, the point of putting your bread onto a preheated surface is to facilitate INSTANT bottom skin formation to provide a base for your oven spring, and whether that's a stone or a pan, as long as it's hot, it'll do the trick. You put steam or water into the oven during the first 1/3 of the baking time to retard the top and side skin formation.
> 
> The real allure of stones for commercial bakeries is their heat retention, meaning less energy costs over time. It's actually all of the other steps--the steam injection, the moisture venting during the last 10 or 15 minutes, the dough production process itself--that makes the real difference in the final product.


Interesting, I'd swear that the breads I bake on the stone raise more than the ones I did on metal. Though I never did a controlled experiment using both methods at the same time with the same amount of dough on each surface for a true comparison. Well, today looks like a good day for baking - I'll report the results


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## katydidagain

woodsman said:


> Interesting, I'd swear that the breads I bake on the stone raise more than the ones I did on metal. Though I never did a controlled experiment using both methods at the same time with the same amount of dough on each surface for a true comparison. Well, today looks like a good day for baking - I'll report the results


Criminy. you posted at 11:07AM EST....post the results already! :bash:


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## whodunit

I guess I've been baking what's called "artisan bread". I've been baking a sourdough using real starter and no commercial yeast. I've been using about a 75% unbleached flour to 25% whole grain mixture. The dough is "proofed" for 18 hours, then shaped and allowed to rise again for another 1.5-2 hours. I then pre-heat a cast iron Dutch oven in a 500 degree oven. The dough is placed into the Dutch oven and the lid is put on. The lid causes the moisture in the dough to steam and makes the crust become crispy and broken. It's really comes out beautiful! Here's a link to where I learned this technique:

http://www.breadtopia.com/sourdough-no-knead-method/


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## Jeff54321

woodsman said:


> I'd swear that the breads I bake on the stone raise more than the ones I did on metal.


That is probably due to the fact that breads baked on a hot preheated stone _do_ rise more than the same bread on metal.

Jeff


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## highlandview

Do you have any cast iron? It might work.


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## woodsman

katydidonce said:


> Criminy. you posted at 11:07AM EST....post the results already! :bash:


All righty then. I set out to make sourdough bread so everything had to take its own sweet time

I made a batch of dough that was exactly 1630 grams.I scaled it into two loaves of exactly 810 g each and a 10g ball that I use as a floater in a glass of water to tell me when the dough is ready to bake.

Both loaves were placed in exactly the same loaf pans (Teflon coated WearEver 4.75x8.75) greased with lard and left for the final raising.

When the little ball of dough floated to the top of the water in the glass I fired up the oven to its max temp (500 deg F) and placed a rectangular baking stone and cookie sheet side by side on the middle rack. After 30 minute warm up I filled a small baking pan with water placed it at the bottom of the oven, slashed the loaves and put one loaf pan on the baking stone and the other one the cookie sheet. Baking took about 30 minutes.

As far as I can tell both loaves are of the same volume after baking. The difference is that the one baked on the baking stone is much darker at the bottom and sides where it touched the wall of the pan, and it is also 50g lighter than the one baked on the cookie sheet. The tops of both loaves are baked to the same degree - can't tell them apart, save by looking at the bottom.

So it seems to me that if during the same time the loaf baked on the baking stone lost 50g more water than the other one and also got darker at the bottom - it must have baked faster - that's all. I must also conclude that my previous assessment as to the rise of the bread on the baking stone was wrong and the better rise of my breads must have been influenced by me improving my bread making technique rather than the stone itself 

My next experiment will involve a 1/4 inch thick aluminum comal v. baking stone.


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## Old Swampgirl

I made the Artisan bread from a recipe in MEN a couple of issues ago. Didn't have a bread stone, but saw pizza stone at Walmart & bought it. It worked fine & the bread was great. Also the recipe was so easy!


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## katydidagain

Thanks for taking time to reply in such detail!



woodsman said:


> ...a 10g ball that I use as a floater in a glass of water to tell me when the dough is ready to bake.


I hate to be a pain but could you elaborate on this? I "eyeball" loaves and have failures; they get eaten but are not up to my standards.


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## woodsman

katydidonce said:


> Thanks for taking time to reply in such detail!
> 
> I hate to be a pain but could you elaborate on this? I "eyeball" loaves and have failures; they get eaten but are not up to my standards.


I read about it in the "Village Baker". When you punch down the dough for the final raising, you pinch a little piece of it, make it into a ball and drop it into a glass/jar filled with water. When it expands enough so floats to the surface the bread is supposed to be ready to bake. I use this method as timing the sourdough due to huge variances in yeast vitality, temperature and humidity is quite useless and judging the rise in volume might not work so well for free form loaves. So far using this method gave very good and constant results v. eyeballing or timing.


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## Macybaby

I was just reading about this in my "Cookwise" by Shirley O. Corriher this morning. 

If you don't have a stone:
Preheat the oven to 25 d F below the baking temp. Place bread on shelf in the lower third of the oven, 5-6" above the bottom, and then turn the oven up to baking temp. Carefully place a shallow pan with 1/2" of boiling water on the oven floor (or lowest shelf for electric stove). Or use cold oven procedure described on page 14.

The book says the purpose of the stone is to get heat from the bottom and slow crusting. The bottom heat will allow the bread to raise better before the crust forms to hold the loaf down.

I really like this book, it talks more about "why" and "how" than what. Not a real good recipe book, but great to learn what is really going on in the process. The section on risen bread is almost 100 pages long but only has about 32 recipes. The rest is information.

Cathy


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## Molly Mckee

I would be careful using floor tile for baking. Most of it comes from third world type countries and could have any kind of things in it. It is not made for baking on so held to any kind of food grading. Molly


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## katydidagain

woodsman said:


> I read about it in the "Village Baker". When you punch down the dough for the final raising, you pinch a little piece of it, make it into a ball and drop it into a glass/jar filled with water. When it expands enough so floats to the surface the bread is supposed to be ready to bake. I use this method as timing the sourdough due to huge variances in yeast vitality, temperature and humidity is quite useless and judging the rise in volume might not work so well for free form loaves. So far using this method gave very good and constant results v. eyeballing or timing.


Cool! Guess I'll be baking tomorrow and testing this new trick!


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## Jeff54321

My previous comments regarding baking on a stone vs. some other surface assumed that the loaf was free standing and not in a pan.

Jeff


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## Lolly-Dolly

well.. the way my oven cooks it likes to scorch stuff on the bottom while leaving the top not done yet... and I've found if I put a cast Iron skillet on the bottom rack and cook in a pan on the top rack that it dissipates the heat more and whatever I bake comes out right. so... I vote for cast-iron.


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## woodsman

In Mexico and Central America they use these heavy round flat griddles (comales) made of cast iron, aluminum, stone or clay for making tortillas, etc. Really a useful implement, as it can be used with cheaper thin bottom pots that would otherwise burn what's cooking in them if placed directly over flame. They can also be used over wood fire as a base for other pans that you wouldn't want to have covered with soot. I didn't bake bread on one by placing it in the oven, but I'm sure gonna try it next


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