# Question about lathering and cows milk...



## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I usually make my soap with goats milk. But ran out and went to whole cows milk - organic from the grocery store.

One of my customers has remarked that the soap made from the cows milk doesn't LATHER very well.

Anyone else have this problem?

All I can figure is that it's the cream difference?

I know the bars are harder and whiter somehow.


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## swamp_deb (Jan 9, 2004)

My guess would be the different fat content in the milks.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Gailann, 
Never had to use cow's milk from the store. Most likely (and this is an assumption) it was from a Holstein cow and that the milk was homogenized.

The fat content of whole cow's milk is (if I remember correctly) about 3%.

See if there are any Jersey owners around (check realmilk.org) that have a herd share program or are certified for selling raw milk for pet consumption. The milk from our Jersey yeilds about 1 quart of cream per gallon of milk. The soap made from this is very lathery.

I also wonder about the sugar content in the different milks...


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## Charleen (May 12, 2002)

You're probably right abot the fat content of the milk. When we use goat milk from a recently freshened goat, the butterfat content is much higher than later in lactation. Protein content drops also.

Cindy - On Thanksgiving day we were visiting relatives a couple hours away and they had bought a quart of fresh Jersey milk from a local amish farm. Delish! But I'll stick with my goat milk! LOL


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## JR05 (Jan 1, 2005)

MullersLaneFarm, question do you use the cream only or the skimmed milk from the cow milk? I have always used the goat milk but we have cows we milk for the local farmers that are afraid of the little four letter word! GOAT! Would like to try it in the futurefor soap making. Oh and how much do you use, my recipe calls for 3/4 gallon of goat milk would I use the same from the cow?

jr05


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

JR05 said:


> MullersLaneFarm, question do you use the cream only or the skimmed milk from the cow milk?


I use the whole milk from our Jersey for all my recipes except the cream & aloe. 



> Oh and how much do you use, my recipe calls for 3/4 gallon of goat milk would I use the same from the cow?
> jr05


That would depend if I were making a 3# batch or a 12# batch of soap. I weigh my ingredients (including the milk)

I'd caution you about using any recipe that called for volume measurements instead of weighed unless you're using a large amount of oils - say 10#.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

At different times, I have used both cow's milk and cow's cream. The soap turned out great.


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## kidsnchix (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't remember where I read it, probably on here somewhere, but someone said to use a small amount of castor oil and it will cause your soap to have more lather.


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## FarmGirl18 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes castor oil is supposed to give some lather, but coconut oil does the best for me, it makes a wonderful lather.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

I remember when folks started toting castor oil as a lathering oil ... bout 2002 or there abouts. A lot of conversations about it because some could get it to lather and others couldn't. Discussion went on to add that castor oil needed to be fully saponified so folks started adding it to their lye solution. Still some could get lather, others couldn't.

Looking at its fatty acid make up, it has 0% Lauric (the lathering FA) but 90% Ricinoleic. As part of the Oleics, it is very conditioning and acts as a humectant.

I'm still not 'sold' that it is a lathering oil. Folks that have had good results with the lather could probably trace it back to combination of the other oils in their recipe.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I originally tried it because it was supposed to make your lather last longer. Seems too, but even if it doesn't, soap sure is better with it than without it. I would caution that too much [12.5% ] has made my soaps made with Crisco soft and difficult to unmold. The same % used with Wallyworld brand shortening seemed OK. All future batches will use 1 oz PPO [6.25%], mostly because I don't see any difference between the two %'s.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

If you look at the ingredients of Crisco, you will find it is an all-vegetable shortening (some combination of soy, palm, cottonseed usually). I beleive the generic WalMart shortening is animal based (tallow, lard with touch of soy).

Since it is a humectant, it attracts moisture to it and could cause it to go soft.

I haven't used castor oil in my soap recipes since around 2003. I prefer the moisturizing properties (linoleic) of regular (NOT the high-oleic) sunflower and safflower oils at no more than 15% using 80% of other oils that add to the hardness of the bar.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Cyndi, do you have any problem with DOS with those oils? If you had to choose one, which do you prefer? Shipping getting what it is, I'm trying to eliminate fixed/base oils from mail order if possible. Do you know any substitute for jojoba?


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## kidsngarden (Mar 24, 2006)

I'm interested to know Cyndi if you have a problem with DOS in any of your soaps? It was talked about on another forum that when additives like milk are in soap it has a less tendency to DOS? I've only had one bar DOS and it was the only "regular" (no milk) soap I made! It was a Lard, Canola coconut blend. The very first bar I made was 100% GM (yep, I just jumped right in to GM without a batch of regular under my belt!) was just lard and canola. I found one a year later and it had no DOS and was wonderful!

All my recipes have between 20-40 percent sunflower (used to use canola) and almost all are lard/coconut base and the only DOS I ever had was that one bar without milk.

Interesting look into the mystery of DOS I think!

Bethany


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

bowdonkey said:


> Cyndi, do you have any problem with DOS with those oils? If you had to choose one, which do you prefer? Shipping getting what it is, I'm trying to eliminate fixed/base oils from mail order if possible. Do you know any substitute for jojoba?


No problem with DOS since 1999.

Lard
Olive
coconut
sunflower/safflower
sweet almond

100% fresh frozen jersey milk with 32% lye solution discounted 7%

jojoba is technically a wax, not an oil.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

kidsngarden said:


> All my recipes have between 20-40 percent sunflower


Is his high oleic sunflower??

I don't use high oleic - mine is high linoleic .... !


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

for me, it is a combo of castor and coconut. i find the coconut gives a very bubbly lather and the castor oil gives a more stable foamy/creamy type lather. i use (without checking to be sure) @ 15% coconut and @ 4%-5% castor.


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## kidsngarden (Mar 24, 2006)

MullersLaneFarm said:


> Is his high oleic sunflower??
> 
> I don't use high oleic - mine is high linoleic .... !


Yes, High oleic. And it is said that linoleic has higher risk of DOS in large amounts, right?

I've never use high linoleic - where do you get it? Seems like most soaping suppliers sell only the high oleic.

Bethany


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Bethany,

From Golden Barrel. It's the only place I can find it now. Beaglady turned me on to them.

http://www.goldenbarrel.com/store/


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## kidsngarden (Mar 24, 2006)

Thier prices are pretty decent! I don't know if I want to do high linoleic though..I'd have to reformulate some of my recipes, most are at 20% though.

Bethany


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Bethany,

I keep the linoleic sunflower about 15-17%. With the high linoleic FA, you can use more coconut / palm kernel without the soap being drying.

Take one of your recipes using 20% HO sunflower, drop it down to 17% and add the other 3% to the coconut. You'll see what I mean!

I have some extra HL sunflower (maybe it's safflower) that I could send you for postage if you want to try a bit. PM me if you do


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## kidsngarden (Mar 24, 2006)

So even though I would be using ol. sunflower it would still work if I lowered it and added coconut? Or would it be too drying?

Bethany


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Bethany,
Using HO sunflower is like using OO. It is the Linoleics in the non-HO sunflower that counter-acts the drying effects of the Lauric in the coconut and palm kernel.


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