# Power Co. came to install Smart meter...



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

But I asked them not to until my husband and I could make a decision...

I think its intrusive and a way for the government to subsidize GE...what are you thoughts on this?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

What's to decide ? You either get the meter they want to put in, or no meter and no power.

What's your problem with that meter ?


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

http://www.pressherald.com/news/cmp-chastised-over-smart-meters_2011-03-16.html#

I don't want them to know when I'm blow drying my hair or canning food or whatever...it seems odd in this economy for "improvements" of considerable cost to be done.


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## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

My meter reader told me they are terrible and that anyone that he knows that has it hates it!


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

We no longer have meter readers. Haven't for some time. I guess it was installed before I wore tinfoil very often. It probably is older technology now. I did not notice a difference. I do not know what a new meter would be able to decipher.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The argument around here is it saves the cost of a meter reader. 
They can at their own time from their office/shop "read" your monthly usage.
They could care less about you using a blow dryer . . .in fact turn it on for a couple hours a day . . .they will just smile because of all the KWH's that you use.
Its your tough luck if you "don't like it" . . . . .It is their game..........


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

I have had one for about 2 years now. Haven't seen any differences. The thing I really like is no meter reader. The meter is on a shed next to the house, about 500' from the road. Is nice not to worry about the meter reader trying to see how fast he can drive down the road or the one too lazy to get out of the car and just pulls up through the grass to the meter. I actually feel like I have more privacy without a stranger pulling up once a month with no warning.

Kathie


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## joyfulheart (Mar 26, 2009)

We have no option. We are on a "list" to recieve ours this week or next, but are not allowed to opt out. It's being upgraded to EVERYONE. 

They told hubby that if he wants electricity he has to get upgraded. And since we don't have other options on electric companies, we are stuck. 

(I hate coserv)


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

We have one and I was glad to get it. We used to have to read our own meter. We are with an electric coop. My guess is that too many people were shaving their numbers to lower their bill. Once in a while, they would come around and take a reading, I guess you could call it an audit. I think the constant readings of the automated meters also helps them figure out the usage peaks and patterns and meet the demands.


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## Spotted Owl (Jul 5, 2010)

This is a huge cost. Millions or more depending on the company size. 

Here are a few problems they have had. Wrong reading on the wrong meters, power shut off accidentally, meters blowing off the wall during a surge(containment cages have been built for school yards and such to hold meters), broken meter bases from improper installation leading to fires, tracking of usage and subsequent investigations of over average use.

Look at your meter if you see an RC on it that means remote control, they can shut your power off any time. Unless programed correctly a garage door controller can and has shut off the power to these meters. Then it takes several workers to come out and change out all the meters in the area(entire apartment complex).

However your are stuck with them. Just be careful and take precautions with them. Ours is on the pole facing away from anything.



Owl


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## Tilly (Oct 16, 2007)

We have had ours for 2 years. It was installed when we bought our house, and I just don't trust it. Our very conservative usage gets us huge bills, and the power co-op will not do an energy audit, come out and check the meter. They will, however, 'accidentally' shut us off remotely. I have to call, ask why they shut off, and am told they shut off the wrong house......

Tilly


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

We have one & I love it. No meter reader. He would come at such random times. One month as early as he could & the next month as late as he could. Our bills fluctuated so bad. Now the meter is read the same day every month & our bill is more consistent. Usually within $5-$10.


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

We're members of an electric coop and the smart meters are being installed on all customers. There wasn't a choice. You have to allow the new meter to be installed if you want electric. I certainly wanted to say no but didn't. They also sent out a mailing last month asking if we want to join the Smart Sense program they're offering. They'll knock $5 off your monthly bill if you allow them to come inside and put a control switch on your hot water heater. For another $10 off your bill you can have them put one on your heat/air unit. No, you most certainly will not come in my house and control my heat and air.

Late last year we installed a new energy saving heat/air unit and new water heater. We enjoyed the lowest electric bills we've had in the 30 years we've lived here. The January bill was the first taken from the new smart meter and was the highest monthly bill we've ever received since living here. Our December bill was $97 and the January bill was $268. As far as I'm concerned they can stick the smart meter where the sun don't shine. We managed to get the February bill down to $200, but that was because of better weather and less heat used.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My meter reader was a nice guy...and so was the gentleman who came yesterday....In no way rude as the article suggests. My meter reader was always consistent 10am on the 3-8th of the month. So no worries there.
Its all the other stuff, being shut off accidentally...means a trip down to the lake for water if they are not quick about getting it back on....I've heard a lot about higher bills...funny CMP just said rates were going down3%...and honestly I don't know how there signal is going to get out...we cant get cell service or digital TV service where we are....so they may have to come out anyway!

And we don't use a hairdryer...but I saw something on tv that appliances have a "signature" and the smart meters could decipher...

I think its Big Brother-ish....and quite suspect...where will all those meter readers find work?


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## halfpint (Jan 24, 2005)

We've had ours a couple of years, and the one thing I do like is that when the power goes out, they know immediately, so our power is usually restored quicker. Seems that we have a lot of suicidal squirrels around here as the cause is often a tripped breaker. 

Dawn


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

We've had a smart meter at houses in two different parts of the state. Never had an issue and never had the power accidentally shut off to our home either. I prefer it, no need to worry about meter reader flipping out over our dogs, or leaving a gate open.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

mpillow said:


> honestly I don't know how there signal is going to get out...we cant get cell service or digital TV service where we are....so they may have to come out anyway!
> 
> And we don't use a hairdryer...but I saw something on tv that appliances have a "signature" and the smart meters could decipher...
> 
> I think its Big Brother-ish....and quite suspect...where will all those meter readers find work?



the signal goes out over the power line , same as brodband over power line internet service 

big brotherish thats what we said about grocery store savers club cards , now every one has 2,3,4 of them.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I would be for it if we could do away with meter readers. Meter readers have left our gate open and allowed livestock to wander off. A meter reader once closed our gate wrong and locked us out of our own property!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Common Tator said:


> I would be for it if we could do away with meter readers. Meter readers have left our gate open and allowed livestock to wander off. A meter reader once closed our gate wrong and locked us out of our own property!


That's the main idea.....doing away with the readers as a labor savings. I can't see why folks are against that. What it will translate into is lower electrical costs ( or at least don't rise as fast ). 


In some places, they will also use it to manage power when demand is great.....able to cut certain devices, like water heaters off for 5-10 minutes at a time to help balance the overall load on the system....you won't even notice it happened, AND they will have to some inside ( with your permission I assume ) to install a remote controlled cutout switch on any appliance they want to control "from the office".

I doubt they give a flying flip about your power use, or lack of it. It would simply be too much data to even keep up with, and for no purpose. 

Not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy, folks.....BUT those of you driving GM cars with OnStar.....well, now, THAT, you might wanna look into !


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## gardenmom (Dec 31, 2004)

We are on an electric coop and have never had a meter reader so the "saving money by doing away with meter reader" argument doesn't hold water.
I, personally, hate it. Around here bills have been unusually high and some of the meters have been found to be defective.
We are using less electricity and paying higher bills. Even factoring in increased costs of production, it doesn't compute. I think it's the first step in control and I wouldn't have OnStar, either.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

gardenmom said:


> We are on an electric coop and have never had a meter reader so the "saving money by doing away with meter reader" argument doesn't hold water.


So, how did the meters get read BEFORE the new meters ?


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

I dont see the issue at all. They dont know when your using your hairdryer! LOL
What is nice is no more estimated bills when a meter reader cant get out here. In winter its impossible to get to our meter unless you have a 4 wheel drive vehicle and so we got estimated bills, Hard to keep track of your billing cycle on estimations!!!

So I love our new meter. Had it for a year and its great. No guy coming around whenever and no estimated bills!!! 

We are second shift here and with the new meter we are thinking of signing up for the special rate plan since we can now. We can get our electric cheaper if our usage is highest after nightfall. Well ours is always highest at night since we do all our stuff at night. My washer is always going at 1am.
From the looks of it, we may be saving even more money and thats because we got the new meter.

So I like it.

Oh as for the wireless signal and health stuff...LOL everything around us is wireless. Even the tv signals are now digital wireless satellite fed technology.
Cell phones too. Its all going wireless.
The last thing I am worried about is a wireless meter outside, especially when I am on a wireless pc while taking on my cell phone. LOL


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Let me add my two cents here. I've worked in the Power Supply industry all of my adult life. (20 years) I worked for 7 years in a meter shop for an electric company that upgraded to "smart meters" and seen the advantages from their standpoint. 

First of all, the old electromechanical meter than spins a disk round and round 24/7 is easy to "steal" power from. You'd be surprised how enginuitive folks have become at robbing power. 

Second, the electromechanical meter is so out of date in it's technology that major companies like GE and ABB Elster are discontinuing lots of their product lines in the US that works on the 60 hertz cycle of electric power. 

Third, the new smart meters are retrofittable with the AMR equipment (automated meter reading) and come from the factory with this option available for less money than it takes to bring an old school meter in from the field and upgrade the register and equip it to do AMR reading. The days of meter readers are numbered in most US areas. It's not 

Fourth, it's not an issue of "big brother". The power company wants to sale you power bottomline! The only reason that they would care if you were using your hair dryer is to be prepared to provide you more power. The US has gotten very in depth in grid tying and most all systems, (with the exception of Texas) are tied together to provide constant service to all demand. (BTW, Texas would love to have more accross the state-line ties to outside sources. They just don't have the transmission infrastructure to get it done yet.) If a company can look at their outgoing load and have the ability to predict certain times of the day when load is higher or lower, their power buying folks can beg, borrow, or trade for more of it at peak demand. 

The electrical industry has changed signifcantly in the last two decades. No longer does a person know exactly where their power is being generated. It used to be that the local power plant provided point to point service for their area but no more. It's for the most part all tied into a grid and is traded by power pools much like the stock exchange.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Smart Meter = No Meter Reader. Major OPSEC concern eliminated. It was a good day when the meter reader stopped attempting to come down here.


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## gardenmom (Dec 31, 2004)

TnAndy : Customers read their own meters and sent in the readings with their bill payments.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

gardenmom said:


> TnAndy : Customers read their own meters and sent in the readings with their bill payments.


Sorry but I dont work for the electric company for free. 
If they are paying joe blow to read my meter, they better pay me too.

so glad I got the new meter.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

We got ours last summer and like others have said; no more meter reader. It also notifies the power company when the power goes out even if we are not here which happens a lot. And finally, we can get a detailed listing of our kwh useage on line which we have used to help conserve (our highest electrical bill in the year we have lived here was $111.00).

But, I am concerned that eventually they will be able to control our useage whether we want it or not...part of the reason we are starting to increase our own power generation capability.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

salmonslayer said:


> We got ours last summer and like others have said; no more meter reader. It also notifies the power company when the power goes out even if we are not here which happens a lot. And finally, we can get a detailed listing of our kwh useage on line which we have used to help conserve (our highest electrical bill in the year we have lived here was $111.00).
> 
> But, I am concerned that eventually they will be able to control our useage whether we want it or not...part of the reason we are starting to increase our own power generation capability.


we do that to follow our usage online. I love it. Our company keeps the previous year too so you can compare.

As for controlling usage, yeah, how? What about people with electric heat or aircon? They cant control it that much.
Consumption has a lot of factors and the cost alone pushes us to use less.

Rolling black outs I dont think is something they want to do. Nor individual black outs. Cant make money either if your turning off peoples juice.
Electric companies want to make money and they do that by selling electricity. Many are expanding in my state. Our company has several new plants going up. I dont think they want to limit anyone. 

Oh they can mess with the cost but they do that already.
Our company has the standard rate but its high. If you want it cheaper you have to contract to use your peak juice during night hours. If you contract for the savings and use to much during the day then they charge you more than the standard for those daytime kw's. So messing with cost is all they can do and they do anyhow.

I dont think they will limit anyone, just mess with cost but thats nothing new.


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## TracyB (May 24, 2010)

As usual I think some of you guys are too trusting (they don't want to shut you off) and some are too paranoid (see me using my hairdryer) but the answer is probably somewhere in between. 

How about they just shut you off because they think you should "upgrade" to the new energy efficient heat pump system they just started carrying? You've already used all of your allotted kwh for the month. It's either that or you are forced to go online and agree to new terms of service that allow them to turn your service back on at double the cost as a penalty for your "outdated" appliances. 

In return they'll plant a tree in africa or something and carve your name into the base.

It's all about power here, and I don't mean the kind that comes through the wires. 

That's my 2 cents. I could be wrong and really they'll call me once a month to sing kum-ba-ya about my new smart meter, but somehow I don't see the fat cats at the power companies taking the time to learn the words. 


Hubby and I are really thinking more and more about solar now. Sure it's expensive, but for the extra dough (four years worth of payments for us) it seems like we'd get the freedom to take a knife and stick it in that money pit they call a heart and give it a little twist.

I don't know. That's just my late night rambling thought. I should get some sleep.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

New meters are better technicly. No problem with that.

I'm surprised at the number of people happy to have out of work meter readers. I'll let my friend that just lost his job know that the homestead crowd doesn't really care if he can buy food to feed his kids but they'll be happy to give him pointers on growing a garden.

I don't get it. Most here think times are getting tougher, unemployment is out of control, but dance in the street that their meter reader lost his job.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

technology is like anything else in the hands of honest people its great. "bad" meters have been installed across the country and the company swore they CANT be bad they just cant. and you get double and triple billed . if by some miricle you can spend hundreds to get a electrictian and the company to not just swap annother "bad" meter and actually load test the meter in the field you will find out. its great they actually doing something to put more people out of work. but when are they going to put smart power supply that THEY pay to upgrade where power if fed from both sides and if a branch or ice downs the line everyone but between those 2 poles goes down. seems like we lose power to all of town and sometimes all of town the penisula and the neighboring town. we pay good money for crap and less service and random outages.
and yes they DO want black outs(reason for rate hikes and huge repair 'cost') our company doesnt even 'own' power plants they just a supply monoply that charges 2 rates power cost and supply . common really? you think if there was 2 independants if power wouldnt be cheaper.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

time said:


> I don't get it. Most here think times are getting tougher, unemployment is out of control, but dance in the street that their meter reader lost his job.



Really ? Think about how silly that is....

Improvements in technology replace people all the time. When the railroad went to diesel engines over coal/steam, they were forced by the union to keep firemen ( the guys that used to shovel the coal in the firebox ) even though they had absolutely no function any more. 

Is THAT what you are suggesting ?

We could employ thousands of people to sit around NOT picking cotton because they were replaced by mechanical pickers.
Hey....come to think of it, we do !.....it's called welfare.....ahahahaaaaa


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

TracyB said:


> *Hubby and I are really thinking more and more about solar now.* Sure it's expensive, but for the extra dough (four years worth of payments for us) it seems like we'd get the freedom to take a knife and stick it in that money pit they call a heart and give it a little twist.


THAT, in IMHO, is EXACTLY what you ought to do......along with conservation.

The cost of power IS GOING TO GO UP in the future, and likely, is going to be less reliable in delivery. ( The whole electrical grid is a mess of bailing wire and bubble gum, in serious need of billions in upgrades ). 

Despite the paranoia displayed over smart meters, they are actually a way to help hold down costs a bit...but the fact is everything from the cost of fuels to the costs of new production down to the wages of linemen are going to cost MORE going forward, and that WILL be reflected in your bill. The ONLY way you have to avoid this is USE LESS, or PRODUCE MORE. It's a simple formula.

If more people would divert some money away from toys and vacations and new vehicles and spend it on a real investment in their own electrical future, we'd be far better off.

This month, we have used 513 kw/hrs of power ( 3 1/2 weeks into the month )....of that, we produced OVER 50% at 261kw/hrs. I am spending another 8,000 bucks to put up 2.4kw more in panels/etc in the next month or so, aiming to produce 75% or more of our needs. My goal is ZERO electric bill going forward.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Also TracyB and every one else out there . .The way the "dollar" is going investment in a "system" should be sooner than yesterday.

I shudder to even speculate about the price tags on all this good PV equipment . . . shortly down the road with all the (hyper?) inflation talk.
Yes the utility prices are also only going up UP.............

Also the present PTB are/have put assinine regulations on the electric industry that do Nothing but drive prices up . . .It is insane what is happening...........

The time to put serious thought into renewal energy is yesterday.......


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

I have had this type of meter for years... can't remember exactly, 5-7 years.

I called and asked for it. I had them put in at my rentals too!

no more strangers coming into my farm, no more having to put up dogs which means I had to stay home and wait for them. This was a blessing.

Now I need to move a propane tank down to the road, fortunately, the driver calls me and gives me the day and aprox. time. Gotta move dogs.

I am sure at some point everyone will have these. Will it put meter readers out of work... probably, however, no one complained when computers put file clerks out of work, copy machines put mimeographs manufactures out of work. *shrug* it happens, we evlove and change and grow.


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## Billin (Nov 24, 2009)

The local idjits keep trying to sell me the interruptable service. I've told them it is geo-thermal but I guess they don't understand electricity, or maybe they do. Power was out for 4 days and I had the highest bill I've had since the house was built by about 120%-


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> Really ? Think about how silly that is....
> 
> Improvements in technology replace people all the time. When the railroad went to diesel engines over coal/steam, they were forced by the union to keep firemen ( the guys that used to shovel the coal in the firebox ) even though they had absolutely no function any more.
> 
> ...


Nope, I'm suggesting keeping the mechanical meters.

You are correct. It is called welfare when people don't have jobs and are paid by the state to stay home and do nothing. So you advocate it is better for a machine to do an actuall job a person can do and the person stay home and get paid to do nothing. Makes sence to me. :icecream:

Just to keep the facts straight, what company has lowered rates after installing smart meters? My power company does'nt even pretend it's going to do that. They do cite lower costs but do not claim these will be passed to consumers.

The number one concern to americans, according to ALL polls, is jobs. Smart meters at the expence of jobs is a step backwards and is not needed.

Another concern is solar flares. If and when it happens, it is well known that "smart grids" are particularly vulnerable. Flares are less likely to effect mechanical meters. Smart meters are vulnerable and may require replacing in mass quantities in the event of a serious flare event. This will increase the time and cost to repair any damage to grid in this type of event. While I'm not in the convinced doom and gloom crowd, mainstream science rather than psuedoscience is driving this probability. There are no mainstream scientists arguing against this possibility. Using unshielded smart meters is akin to building nuclear power plants on fault lines.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

time said:


> You are correct. It is called welfare when people don't have jobs and are paid by the state to stay home and do nothing. So you advocate it is better for a machine to do an actuall job a person can do and the person stay home and get paid to do nothing. Makes sence to me. :icecream:


Clearly you missed that chapter in Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" that discussed productive labor versus nonproductive labor. 

Do you pay someone to come draw you bath each day or do you flip on the faucet yourself? Do you pay for someone to stoke a fire and cook your meals, or do you just flip the switch on the front of the stove and do it yourself?

The electric companies are corporations and they own the grid. It's THEIR grid. When you hook up to it, you obey THEIR rules. If they tell you that they reserve the right to come watch your wife take a shower to make sure she doesn't waste any hot water, then what grounds for complaint do you have? Are you going to call and demand they cease current flowing to your house and stop taking their service?

It's their grid. Most Americans would consent to being tagged in the ear like cattle before they'd unhook from it willingly.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

While I agree with your post in it's entirety, we'll have to disagree that meter reading is unproductive. The same job is being done through different means.

I do sometimes pay someone to cook my meals. Sometimes I like to eat out.

Yes, I will disconnect if it is insisted that my wife be watched in the shower.

I understand the point you are making but your taking it to extremes. I am not a sheeple and thus voice my opinion. This is a minor concern of mine as it pertains to the industry and I could easily ignore it as most sheeple do. I find it benifitial to vioce concerns on issues big and small.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It is indeed beneficial, but I find that when you only get one shot to try and convince someone on the internet, going to extremes is about your only option.

I'm hooked up to the grid, at least for now. I just don't have any illusions that it's anything other than an open doorway into my home for them and a chain around my ankle.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I will miss them reading the meter with binoculars from the house next door....

I think my 130 pound rottweilers will miss them too.......such fun to watch and good exercise for the beasts too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If they are paying joe blow to read my meter, they better pay me too


They pay JB to read meters 40 hours a week.

I doubt you can retire on the wages from the 10 seconds it takes to read your own


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

time said:


> Another concern is solar flares. If and when it happens, it is well known that "smart grids" are particularly vulnerable. Flares are less likely to effect mechanical meters. Smart meters are vulnerable and may require replacing in mass quantities in the event of a serious flare event. This will increase the time and cost to repair any damage to grid in this type of event. While I'm not in the convinced doom and gloom crowd, mainstream science rather than psuedoscience is driving this probability. There are no mainstream scientists arguing against this possibility. Using unshielded smart meters is akin to building nuclear power plants on fault lines.


A major solar flare, like the one that occurred in the ?1880's or thereabouts, would indeed cripple the smart meters. But that'd be a minor drop of trouble in a sea of misery... all the electric grid would go down... including the very hard to replace transformers.

If memory serves me correct, large industrial sized transformers are made to order... utility company's can't go to the local electrical supply store and pick up one. And, in a SHTF Catch-22, the factories that make the transformers would have troubles making more transformers, as they need grid power (that's just disappeared) to make them. No grid, because transformers are fried, mean no new transformers, so the grid would go down for a long long time.

And, you 'can' get electricity into your house, without a meter... it's just illegal, and dangerous. "IF" all the smart meters disappeared in a blink, and the only thing stopping rural folks from having power was the meter, I'm certain short bars of copper and aluminum would find a home quickly. If the transformers die, the grid ain't coming back for months, possibly years.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Also true, jobs is always forefront in the mind of Americans... Jobs, or more precisely, Positions... There is plenty of work, but it's not 'good enough' for a lot of people. There 'is' a difference between work and jobs. Do away with welfare completely, and the distinctions would evaporate, and it'd all be 'work' or starvation. Believe, in a TEOTWAWKI scenario, such an evaporation would take place instantaneously. And only useful, meaningful, work... the kind that callouses hands and dirties nails.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Interesting distinction between jobs and positions. I'd never heard that before.


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## norcalfarm (Feb 11, 2009)

I had some of the same concerns here when Pacific Gas and Electric decided to roll out the smart meter. The primary concern here was that the utility company would raise rates during hours when people were most likely to have higher usage. Then there was the cases of people's bills immediately tripling once they were installed. Many people made these claims, PG&E said the old meters were inaccurate, which seemed very suspicious. I had mine installed against my will. They snuck in and installed it when I wasn't home after I told them not to. Luckily my bill did not go up. I think for you, it is inevitable but I definitely understand your concerns.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

We were not given notice that someone was coming out to change our meter, so when he showed up in my yard instead of parking on the side of the road. I nicely told him NO. Then the manager came to visit 2 days later to ask why. I told him I didn't want it and didn't appreciate not being notified of the change. He apologized for the notification, but said basically I had no choice, the entire department was changing and they couldn't support the older meters anymore. Plus he pointed out that I didn't own the meter, they did. After some talk explaining the meter and the new process, I agree (not much choice otherwise).

They always parked on the shoulder and walked over to the house before, now they just drive by and point a remote that reads it. I like that better as my dog does not go crazy when they "read" it.

One day, I shall have solar. One day..*sigh*


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Saffron said:


> We were not given notice that someone was coming out to change our meter, so when he showed up in my yard instead of parking on the side of the road. I nicely told him NO. Then the manager came to visit 2 days later to ask why. I told him I didn't want it and didn't appreciate not being notified of the change. He apologized for the notification, but said basically I had no choice, the entire department was changing and they couldn't support the older meters anymore. Plus he pointed out that I didn't own the meter, they did. After some talk explaining the meter and the new process, I agree (not much choice otherwise).
> 
> They always parked on the shoulder and walked over to the house before, now they just drive by and point a remote that reads it. I like that better as my dog does not go crazy when they "read" it.
> 
> One day, I shall have solar. One day..*sigh*


You could pull the plug tomorrow if you were just willing to sacrifice some of those devices around your home.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Someone is going to get bent out of shape reading this ... I just know it. If it's you, I humbly submit that it's perhaps because you see yourself reflected in it.

Most modern homes revolve around ONE electrical device. The television. While it's a really low kilowatt item on its own, ALL of the subsequent electrical devices that go to support its use draw a LOT of power.

Take the dishwasher for example, the most common television support device. It is a labor saver in that it enables you to wash dishes faster, therefore freeing up more of your time. Which you will then use to watch television. Could you wash dishes by hand? Certainly. "But I have a lot of children," the reader complains. Yes. A lot of children who _could be washing dishes._ If you don't have children, then you probably don't have that many dishes that need washing after each meal.

And so forth and so on through each of the labor saving devices in your household. The only electrical devices that I can see as almost critical is a hot water heater and a refrigerator. However storing a refrigerator in a cold basement would mean that it wouldn't have to consume as much electricity AND might not even have to be hooked up to the grid on a constant basis. There are on-demand hot water heaters and if you timed it right you COULD enjoy a hot bath while your fridge is also being chilled.

My home is the same as yours. I have most of these devices. I've just recently realized I don't need them. My next home won't have so many. I've made the mental switch from thinking that are a critical component of the household, to thinking that they are just luxury items that I can do without.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

We don't really have a meter reader. We read our own every month and the power company stop once a year to get the actual reading.

Bobg


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Someone is going to get bent out of shape reading this ... I just know it. If it's you, I humbly submit that it's perhaps because you see yourself reflected in it.
> 
> Most modern homes revolve around ONE electrical device. The television. While it's a really low kilowatt item on its own, ALL of the subsequent electrical devices that go to support its use draw a LOT of power.
> 
> ...


I've got add the well to the necessaries. We're working getting our well off grid. Once I get that and the fridge figured out, we're ok going off grid. I'll miss the stock tank heaters, but am working on alternatives for those as well.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I like my well pump too, but I think I'd be pretty happy with a windmill filling up a large tank that was elevated above my home. That would provide constant water, even if it wasn't pressurized.

Here's the deal ...

Prior to the 1920's or so, almost all of America and the rest of the world WASN'T hooked up to the grid. So for more than 6000 years of human history, we did without and only about 90 years we've had this.

Are you willing to admit you are WEAKER than 99.999% of the human population that came before you?


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Ernie said:


> I like my well pump too, but I think I'd be pretty happy with a windmill filling up a large tank that was elevated above my home. That would provide constant water, even if it wasn't pressurized.


That's exactly what we're in the process of setting up! But until that's done............


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Nothing at all wrong with intermediate steps. It's ok to not get there in one giant leap.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

Ernie said:


> You could pull the plug tomorrow if you were just willing to sacrifice some of those devices around your home.




If it were completely up to me, I would have done so long ago.

As it is - baby steps.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

That's what that book I mentioned talks about, Saffron ... intermediate steps.

It's what finally bridged the gap for me. For years now I've struggled to balance reducing my dependence on the grid with Forerunner's lifestyle. It seems pretty simple after the fact, but it's a transitional move. You get there slowly. Start thinking in transitional steps ... "we can do this for now and later do this other". 

That overcame the hurdle for me and now I'm transitioning. If you asked Forerunner, however, he'd probably say I have a 30 year transition plan.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

You forgot the washing machine, Ernie. Before modern washing machines a woman would have at least one day a week of heavy, back breaking work to get the clothes clean. I went without a washer for years since I didn't have running water in the house. 

In the past, there were women who earned their living washing clothes by hand. If you had the money for it you could have someone come to your house to wash once a week or so or you would have a maid to help your wife. These days everyone has a washing machine unless they are close to a laundromat and can take their clothes there.

If you live in a hot climate without the right kind of housing (very little of that around) you have to have a/c at least part of the time. When it is triple digits in the shade and humidity to match, you have to have some way to cool down. I'd love to build the appropriate house, but I've done really well just to get this tin mansion for now.

No tv here, hasn't been for yrs. I could "live" without internet, but I don't drive and depend on it for news, ordering online, communicating with friends and family and getting information, so while it is available, I intend to have it.

Yes it is a choice, mains power or do without. I've done without enough to appreciate having it while I still can.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Ernie said:


> I like my well pump too, but I think I'd be pretty happy with a windmill filling up a large tank that was elevated above my home. That would provide constant water, even if it wasn't pressurized.


Ernie - That's all fine and good if you live in a hot climate. Good luck with this one when it's 30 below zero outside...........


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

upnorthlady said:


> Ernie - That's all fine and good if you live in a hot climate. Good luck with this one when it's 30 below zero outside...........


What did people in your area do for water before there were electric wells?


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Not sure - They probably melted snow over a wood fire or chopped up ice on the lakes and melted that over a wood fire. Water was a precious commodity.....


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I guess I've had a smart meter since I moved into this place. Out of all the things to be worried about the smart meter ranks pretty low. 



Ernie said:


> Someone is going to get bent out of shape reading this ... I just know it. If it's you, I humbly submit that it's perhaps because you see yourself reflected in it.
> 
> Most modern homes revolve around ONE electrical device. The television. While it's a really low kilowatt item on its own, ALL of the subsequent electrical devices that go to support its use draw a LOT of power.
> 
> ...


Well my home doesn't revolve around the TV, I haven't turned it on in 6 months. Like most people who grew up with the internet the computer is what everything revolves around for myself. My friend would never consider moving somewhere where he couldn't get high speed internet. Myself, while annoying having high speed access is less of a concern. I lived without a refrigerator for years, still don't have a dishwasher, didn't have running water until last year. This year was the first year I had running water all winter, previously I shut it off for the winter since I didn't have a reliable heat source. 

I have running water, high speed internet, and grid electric because I bought a house instead of bare land. I had almost bought 10 acres with nothing on it. Had that happened I suspect I would still be living off the grid, no running water, and probably no refrigerator. It is nice having conveniences. In order to have the same level of convience I have now off the grid would require a substantial investment. On a pure dollar and cents level you can't beat the price of the grid. Now if one didn't mind comming home to a cold house, unthawing water during the winter, having the lights go out around 8 or 9 o'clock in the winter and stumbling around in the dark the next morning then yes one could get by much cheaper off the grid. That was my experience. I remember piling on a foot of blankets and waking up to 10-15 below temps in the house. I suppose a larger woodstove could have fixed that but I didn't make much money. Having a SO or kids probably would have made for a different experience as well. When I went to work there was no one to throw wood in the fire. Anything freezable in glass was guaranteed to break. I'd set my water containers near a window. Sometimes it worked sometimes not. Baths were a pain in the neck during the winter. Most of the time I would resort to taking a shower at work or a "sink bath" at a gas station. I guess the biggest problem for me would be frozen water. It can be worked around I'm sure if one went to propane instead of wood but to me that is just replacing one "grid" for another.

I had no well out at my first place, water was surface water, store bought water, or purified water, or water from work. During the winter I'd melt snow for wash water. Took a lot of snow to get any sort of decent amount of water for anything. Although it froze most of the time so it was smarter just to have just enough for what ever immediate need I had to use it for. Ice took a bit longer to melt, even on a wood stove a solid couple gallons of water takes a while to thaw out not to mention it can make for a steamy house. Once I came home to thick frost covering everything in the house. All the condensation from melting ice had froze to everything. When it warmed up everything was damp to the touch and water would drip off the ceiling.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

mpillow said:


> I don't want them to know when I'm blow drying my hair or canning food or whatever...it seems odd in this economy for "improvements" of considerable cost to be done.


Ummmmm . . . . . . . . . . . . okay.

The electric company could care less when you do things or what you do with their electricity. As long as you use it, without stealing from them - they really don't care.

To think this is some kind of "big brother is watching" scenario - well, it seems a little bit paranoid. They put the smart meters on so they don't have to pay someone to travel out to your house (using a vehicle) to read your meter. When it's time to bill, they read it instantly, and their done.

As for the meters "stealing jobs", are you going to shun all technology? Look at all the jobs the automobile put people out of work - horse harnesses, buggys, wagons, blacksmith's, carriage drivers . . . . . . . . . . .

Chances are that job that was "stolen" is that the next guy that retires, isn't going to be replaced. And that would have happened anyway. The employees just have to pick up the slack.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

I think they will eventually start time of use billing. This means a different rate for daytime usage, lower in the middle of the night (in general). That is how they pay for their power, so they have been itching to pass that along.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

upnorthlady said:


> Not sure - They probably melted snow over a wood fire or chopped up ice on the lakes and melted that over a wood fire. Water was a precious commodity.....


Cisterns were in most northern homes. 
There must have been ways to plumb wells to keep lines from freezing. Livestock had to be watered and cows in milk drink a lot.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

tab said:


> Cisterns were in most northern homes.
> There must have been ways to plumb wells to keep lines from freezing. Livestock had to be watered and cows in milk drink a lot.


I'm thinking that in a lot of areas, if you didn't live alongside a river or a creek that didn't freeze solid, you simply didn't live. 

So many homesteads out there are simply unsustainable without the grid. If you don't have water, you don't have squat.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

tab said:


> Cisterns were in most northern homes.
> There must have been ways to plumb wells to keep lines from freezing. Livestock had to be watered and cows in milk drink a lot.


Most of the older houses around here either had wells in the barns or basements or very close by. Nobody here milked cows in the winter, they were dried off in November or early December and calved in April. Partly because nobody wanted to carry the extra water they'd drink if they were milking and partly because none of the cheese factories went to the extent of winterizing their buildings so as soon as it got too cold to keep the vats from freezing they shut down for the winter. Pretty well stayed like that here until the electric lines came through in the early 50s, even though Grandpa was milking 40 cows by then.

Water was also part of the reason a lot of animals got butchered or went to market in the late fall, along with pastures going dormant and having the weather to keep the meat. If you only had half as many animals or less in the winter and they were mostly dry it took a lot less work to keep them.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Jena said:


> I think they will eventually start time of use billing. This means a different rate for daytime usage, lower in the middle of the night (in general). That is how they pay for their power, so they have been itching to pass that along.


We have time of use billing now. In the winter, 7am to 11 am and 5pm to 9 pm is 9.9 cents per kWh, 11am to 5pm is 8.1 cents, and 9pm to 7 am and weekends is 5.1 cents.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Just read an article about smart meters over at The Blaze, Beck's site. Thinking you might want to read it and check out the links. I hope our meter is older technology.


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## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

tab said:


> Just read an article about smart meters over at The Blaze, Beck's site. Thinking you might want to read it and check out the links. I hope our meter is older technology.


Here is a link to the original article in the East Bay Express

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/ebx/are-smartmeters-dangerous-too/Content?oid=1939740


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Some interesting thoughts. 

First, if you are really unhappy with Big Brother knowing your business, the only option is to cut the cord and go solar, or without.

We don't have tv or a microwave but we do have other modern day luxuries like a fridge, washing machine, and computers. Could we cut the cord? Yes. We actually have wonderful Spring water on this property, an all weather creek and a spring house that 'could' work but needs tlc. 

If I push came to shove, we could live without electricity, but I would rather have a set up that allows me internet access and the use of a fridge and possibly washing machine. Spoilt I know.


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## NJ Rich (Dec 14, 2005)

I didn't read all the posts:

I would not allow the power company to install one on our home. It allows the power company to acually control your useage. One neighbor had her air conditioner shut down for over an hour on a hot day. How hard will the AC need to work to bring the temperature back down? It happened more than oncr BTW.

Savings? I doubt it. The power company saves money on the meter reader but you don't get the savings. The power company wants to control your usage.

We should have nuclear power but after what happened in Japan most people will say NO! All of Japan is on a fault line. We can have nuclear power plants here and Not built on a fault Line. And they also got hit with wave after wave from Sunomies.

The technology is so much better now. Have you heard of any nuclear problems in Scadanavia; Europe or Canada? Don't count Chernoble. It was built below stands and safety issues went uncorrected. 

Bottom line is I suggest you don't allow any power controlling device to be installed on your system if you have a choice. Just my two cents.....


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

NJ Rich said:


> I didn't read all the posts:
> 
> I would not allow the power company to install one on our home. It allows the power company to acually control your useage. One neighbor had her air conditioner shut down for over an hour on a hot day. How hard will the AC need to work to bring the temperature back down? It happened more than oncr BTW.
> 
> ...




The only issue is: With some of the companies, if you refuse to allow them to change it, guess what? You're going off grid, ready or not.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I would not allow the power company to install one on our home. It allows the power company to acually control your useage. One neighbor *had her air conditioner shut down* for over an hour on a hot day


Unless they installed a remote switch on the air conditioner itself, I don't see any logical way they could shut it off without turning *all* the power off.

I don't think her situation is just a "smart meter".

If they want to install them, you really don't have any options other than produce all your own power.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

From what little I know about these smart readers, they can't actually shut down any actual appliances. They can't even specifically monitor which appliances you are running. They can tell that your power load just increased from X to Y, but unless you're running some very new (and compliant) devices that report back to the Smart Meter, they don't know what has just kicked on.

I like being connected to "the grid" so long as I can do it on my own terms. When it becomes too much of an intrusion or burden to do so, then I can throw the switch. The key is being able to do that when the time comes. Otherwise you're just a junkie saying, "I can quit when I want to!"


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

This business of ever increasing encroachment/violation of privacy/rights is an effort by the Beast to give us all opportunity to get off the fence and make a firm decision.

You can keep jumping through the hoops until the effort finally kills you.....
Or, go it on your own, breathing after your own fashion, as Thoreau said.

Given my firm conviction that Satan owns the system and the realm, though not the rock, itself, it is easy for me to see that he has to give not only full disclosure but also opportunity to jump his ship before it crashes off the edge of the world.
Better look long and hard at the direction you're headed in and make sure it's going to get you where you want to be.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

That does seem to be the way of it. All through the bible you can see that Satan's traps are firmly labeled and posted with warning signs, but we (being human) desire convenience, ease, comfort, or gratification so much that we ignore them and proceed right into the danger.

Lately I have taken pencil to paper and charted out how many watts I need and what could be scheduled throughout the day. I just about have it figured out that I could run on battery power for hours throughout the day (if I use one of the battery array designs I've found on the internet) but would need to actively generate a lot of power for about 1-2 hours each day. I have the means to do so with a generator, but lack the technical skills to make it happen.

Cue Forerunner as my power plant specialist ...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I find the trick to be running the system during heavy loads, i.e. washing day and flour grinding day.... for an hour or so, and the charge that puts in the batts keeps us going a couple days before we hit it again.

Of course, both laundry and milling grain will again be accomplished with rocks, soon enough. You pound your laundry against a rock or pound a rock against your grain to facilitate the desired outcome. 
Someday, I may take a rock to this computer, but, for now.......


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Unless they installed a remote switch on the air conditioner itself, I don't see any logical way they could shut it off without turning *all* the power off.
> 
> I don't think her situation is just a "smart meter".
> 
> If they want to install them, you really don't have any options other than produce all your own power.


I would agree with this statement if I hadn't experienced something odd last year. Our power went out due to some sort of issue with the transformer on the power pole. Our entire street was blacked out.

The power company came and did something to the transformer but told us that they would have to come back around 4 am or so to install the new one. They informed us that we'd have no power until 6 am or so.

I got ready for bed and I passed through the laundry room, which used to be a kitchen. I saw that the indicator light was burning on my deep freezer. I also have a fridge plugged into that same outlet...It was working, too.

I went downstairs and checked the kitchen fridge...It was working as well. One of my daughters had a paper that she was supposed to be working on for college, so I plugged a lamp into the other outlet and we had lights in the kitchen. She was able to get her work done. I really didn't understand it. In my entire house, only two outlets were working. My house is a two family that is used as a one-family, so there are two meters. I couldn't help but wonder if my neighbors had one working outlet in the kitchen area, as well. 

I've seen blackouts and brownouts, living in the city. I had never seen anything like this. I do know that we have smart meters. The power company rolls down the street in a van once per month to get the meter readings.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Jena said:


> I think they will eventually start time of use billing. This means a different rate for daytime usage, lower in the middle of the night (in general). That is how they pay for their power, so they have been itching to pass that along.


I actually wish they would do this... tell me when my power is cheaper, and I'll wash clothes, do my microwave'ing, and fire up the super collider, whenever the rates are best.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> I've seen blackouts and brownouts, living in the city. I had never seen anything like this. I do know that we have smart meters. The power company rolls down the street in a van once per month to get the meter readings.



Sure.....easy to explain......your house got "single phased". The transformer only 1/2 failed. There are two lines of 120v power coming out of it, each running to parallel bus bars in your panel. Look at the wires running to your house....you'll see 2 with black insulation ( 2 -120v hot wires ) and one with no insulation ( the neutral/ground wire ).


Each bus bar provides 120v to circuits that use 120v, and the 240v circuits tap BOTH bus bars to make up 240v. One side of your panel was "dead" since one side of the transformer was dead....the other side was still hot, and thus, some circuits in your house that come off that bus bar in your panel still worked, the others didn't. 

It would seem completely random to you UNLESS you understood which bus bar supplied which circuits....then it would be quite obvious.

Nothing magic.....just plain electrical common sense.....which, apparently, when it comes to meters, isn't all that common.....


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Unless they installed a remote switch on the air conditioner itself, I don't see any logical way they could shut it off without turning *all* the power off.


You are correct. A smart meter, by itself, can NOT control any electrical device in your house. All it can do is send the readings remotely, (which can be by the second, minute, hour, day, etc ) and cut ALL the power to your house by remote control. Unless you allow them to install some type of secondary device on each appliance, it simply can't cut off the AC or anything else on command. NOT POSSIBLE.


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## granite-ridge (Mar 17, 2008)

We were changed over to a smart meter recently and given the option of signing up for Google powermeter ( http://www.google.com/powermeter/about/about.html ). Although in general I don't like the idea of sharing information with a third party, we decided having access to our power consumption info was worth it. We are trying to cut our usage drastically in order to be able to afford solar, so having the graphical representation of our usage as a function of time is very helpful. (The Kill-a-Watt is a great tool also, but it isn't easy to get to some of the outlets for the built-in appliances.)

While perusing the SDG&E website, I discovered that if I let them put shut-off switches on my air conditioner units (as someone mentioned above), they would give me hundreds of dollars in credit at the end of the year. Since we *stopped using our AC 2 years ago *(as part of our conservation-to-solar effort), this is pure gravy! And no, it doesn't matter that I don't use it anyway - I asked. As long as the units are sitting there and are hooked up, I can get the credit. So our goal for next year is to switch over to solar before the credit runs out. I figure this is as close as I'll ever get to being paid for not growing a crop!:thumb:

So for us, the smartmeter has been a good thing and is helping us transition to a lower energy lifestyle. I do look forward to having it removed some day though!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

granite-ridge said:


> While perusing the SDG&E website, I discovered that if I let them put shut-off switches on my air conditioner units (as someone mentioned above), they would give me hundreds of dollars in credit at the end of the year. Since we *stopped using our AC 2 years ago *(as part of our conservation-to-solar effort), this is pure gravy!


ahahahaaa.......that's rich ! Go for it !

THIS is the kind of thing the smart meter is designed to do ( assuming you let them install these secondary devices )....it helps to balance the peak load on the system. If they can cut out, say 10%, of the air conditioners, or water heaters, on a couple minutes each rolling basis, they can reduce their peak load, and THUS, avoid having to use more expensive, temporary generation ( like diesels ),or BUY expensive power from someone else.

Amazing how people don't understand this really IS a benefit to them.


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## Scott in Florida Panhandl (May 10, 2002)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ironically-named-smart-meters-prove-to-be-a-dumb-idea/

Ironically-Named âSmart Metersâ Prove to Be a Dumb Idea

Posted on March 26, 2011 at 7:37pm by Mike Opelka 

Headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, DNA breakdown. . . These are just a few of the myriad problems mentioned when people talk about the constant bombardment of EMFs or electromagnetic frequencies, a huge by-product of the new Smart Meters being installed by public utilities around the country.


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