# My Daughter Got a Pitbull



## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Well, actually it is my son-in-law who got the pit. They had gotten a sweet little dog for my oldest (13 y/o) granddaughter and he got himself a PB female. There is a second (9 y/0) g'daughter in the home. They live well off the main road and the puppies run pretty freely. 

My concern is that the PB is, in effect, a potential time bomb. I know that they aren't going to be very good as alphas in her pack and that they are not, on any level, much as disciplinarians. The dog isn't "their" dog, she's "dad's" dog. And 'dad' is a bit of a question mark with little sense and less self discipline.

We met the dog yesterday. Very quiet. 3 months old. Walked in a constant 'stalk' like a big cat and just watched. Everybody. Everything. Did little else. Watched. Almost eerie.

How do you all suggest I approach this as I feel I surely must? 

I welcome advice. Advise.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I just don't see how it would be any concern of my father in laws as to what types of dogs I own. If he approached me on the subject I would tell him thanks for the concern but mind your own business.


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## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

How's your relationship with your daughter and son-in-law? If you have an open relationship with good communication, just say "I'm concerned with your ability to control the new puppy in the future." If they won't respond well to that statement, I don't really see any good way to start a conversation.

If you can't speak with the parents in a productive way, ask if you can take the grandkids to dog training classes with the new pup. It would do everyone good - the kids get to learn how to train as well as how to treat the dog. And the dog gets some training!


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## Parttimefarmer (May 5, 2011)

I wouldn't say a thing, except maybe that if they need any help to let you know.

My FIL told my husband and I (this was about 15 years ago and is still a sore) he would pay for the funeral when we brought our american bulldog puppy home. Needless to say he was never again on my good side. He insulted our parenting with a low blow, and that is pretty unforgivable. Tread lightly.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

I think you're right to feel uneasy, your son-in-law selected this dog for reasons you won't be able to "reason" him out of.

If you can teach the girls about protecting themselves from the worst with this dog, it will be your best bet in keeping them safe.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

My pit bull is by far the sweetest, smartest dog I have EVER owned in my life. She is a very dominate dog but my chihuahua were here first and she respects them. they are even allowed to eat out of her food bowl. She is very eager to please us and most definitely submits to our alpha status in the family. She even obeys command that my 3 year old grandson gives her! Not all people who get pit bulls are doing it for the wrong reasons. Sometimes they just adore the breed, as I do. Pit bulls are not time bombs waiting to explode unless their owners make them that way.


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## Bluesgal (Jun 17, 2011)

As breed PB's are much maligned. They are protective of their owners and nor more viscous then many other breeds. They will however protect their family. Some have been trained to be vicous or became that way because they were abused. 

As for the family issue... I'm not going there...


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

it has a lot to do with breeding as well environment. 50% of a dogs temperament IS genetic.

maybe say "congratulation on the new puppy! here is a payed puppy class coupon as a welcome to the family gift"


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## HTG_zoo (Apr 18, 2011)

Even better yet, present them with a coupon for the low cost spay / neuter clinic. If you don't like pit bulls, nothing you say to them will make a difference. If you want to own a pit bull you must learn to ignore those who will tell you that your dogs is a ticking time bomb and out to kill. If you support them, they're much more likely to accept your help.

I love my pit bulls, and dogs in general, but admit that whenever I hear about a situation in which 'dad' has his own dog that is not the family dog, I worry. They're moving the dog out of the 'family as a pack' or 'you're the bottom of the heirarchy around here' and making the dog 'treasured' or putting him above the kids in his mind. I've seen this lead to Dad's dog is too rough with the kids, so Dad's dog needs to live outside, but Dad's dog is an intact male and wanders, so Dad's do has to be on a chain.

In general, the most dangerous dog (the one who kills most often) is an intact male that is either kept chained in the yard or used for breeding. So it would do the most good (as far as keeping your grandkids safe) to reduce the chances of those scenarios. So strong encouragement to neuter and keep the dog part of the family will help a lot. Professional training goes a long way too.

ETA: I don't live at his house, but my dad has lots of opinions about the dogs I keep. I don't think that is unusual, I don't listen to him too much since he gave me a GSD he rescued that turned around and tried to eat me.

As for the 3 month old puppy walking around in a constant stalk, he could be ill. A lot of illnesses common to young dogs can cause them to crouch or hunch when walking (any of the gastro-instental illnesses, 'growing pains', even worms or flea bite anemia). It could also be a fearful dog, which is just as dangerous as the dominant aggressive dog in my experience. So no matter what, they should definitely get some professional eyes on this pup, first a vet, then a trainer.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

I can see why your concerned, your afraid of the dog being around your grandaughters. I'd probably feel the same way, but about more breeds than just pit bulls. Not crazy about many of the high drive more aggressive breeds, was raised with Dobermans myself. I was never bit, but my sister was. Dogs have never liked her. Can't see what you can do, except express your concern without condemning the SIL's decisions. Whats been done to the Pit Bull breed is a sin, hope they managed to find a good tempered decent puppy. Only time will tell.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

statistically pit bulls are less likely to bite than a lab. the problem is that if they do bite it's usually more damaging. it would be a good idea to find out as much as you can about the lines the dog comes from. also don't stress if it wants to fight every dog it sees, (it's in the genes & you can't love it out) dog agression & human agression are two completely unrelated drives.
OTH i understand where you're coming from about the SIL. my in laws got a GSD that was a fear biter, dominant toward children & then they didn't train it because the dad was a lazy pansy. it bit me & later bit one my nieces (their daughter). i told them not to get it before they got it because i knew it would be a poor choice for their family.
HTG
i'd be MORE afraid of the fear biter, because it indicates a general temperament defect & TREMENDOUSLY increases the chances of a biting incident.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

HTG_zoo said:


> Even better yet, present them with a coupon for the low cost spay / neuter clinic. If you don't like pit bulls, nothing you say to them will make a difference. If you want to own a pit bull you must learn to ignore those who will tell you that your dogs is a ticking time bomb and out to kill. If you support them, they're much more likely to accept your help.
> 
> I love my pit bulls, and dogs in general, but admit that whenever I hear about a situation in which 'dad' has his own dog that is not the family dog, I worry. They're moving the dog out of the 'family as a pack' or 'you're the bottom of the heirarchy around here' and making the dog 'treasured' or putting him above the kids in his mind. I've seen this lead to Dad's dog is too rough with the kids, so Dad's dog needs to live outside, but Dad's dog is an intact male and wanders, so Dad's do has to be on a chain.
> 
> In general, the most dangerous dog (the one who kills most often) is an intact male that is either kept chained in the yard or used for breeding. So it would do the most good (as far as keeping your grandkids safe) to reduce the chances of those scenarios. So strong encouragement to neuter and keep the dog part of the family will help a lot.


This. Great advice, and not just for the breed in question either.
A LOT of possible problems could be prevented if people would get their dogs fixed.
Unfortunately, a large number of the folks who are attracted to the bully breeds are also opposed to neutering. 

If I were you, I would work on convincing my daughter that this procedure should be done, for BOTH their puppies.

Good luck.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

What I see as the problem, regardless of the specific breed, is that the dad chose a dog that needs a strong alpha when it comes to training and discipline.

Another dog in the house and two small girls with a less than firm owner who now owns a dog with the very real capability to kill would worry me too.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Situations LIKE THIS are how kids get hurt and the breed is further damaged.

I would think little dog might be toast in a few months and that could accelerate the removal of the pitt. The pitt may be fine with the little dog, I've seen it go either way. 

They way you describe this particular dog, I'd fret. 

What can you do, I don't know that you can do much. I'd offer to get the dog fixed for them,I'd pay it and arrange transport if I must.

You may be able to teach the girls a bit about dogs and body language, so they will exercise caution if the dog ever looks at them like that. 

At least the kids aren't babies. I doubt the dog will last long before it runs off/is gotten rid of. So, there's that.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

When we got my pit bull, she was 6 weeks old. My 3 pound chihuahua was almost a year and my bigger chihuahua was around 4. Bailey wanted those little dogs to play with her SO bad. She tried everything. she watched, she pounced, she ran at them. They would have none of it and set her in her place. To this day, Bailey respect them and loves them. Don't automatically assume the pit bull is going to eat the little dogs. She is a puppy and just wants a friend. Y'all are reading WAY too much into the actions of a 3 month old puppy!! If you treat this dog with fear and act like she is going to rip your head off, she will pick up on that and it will cause a lot of anxiety in her. Treat her like a regular, sweet pup and don't brainwash those children into being afraid of her. That's the worst thing you can do to them!


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Barbados- 

Did you just bring your pup home and dump her into the family? Or did you work with her, correct her when need be and train her to be a well socialized dog?

The concern is that the owner will not properly train the dog and that problems may arise from it.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Actually there is very little (read _NO_) doubt in my mind that this dog is just being dropped into the family mix with the previous puppy a sweet little thing and everybody (human) pretty much on the laissez-faire side of life.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> When we got my pit bull, she was 6 weeks old. My 3 pound chihuahua was almost a year and my bigger chihuahua was around 4. Bailey wanted those little dogs to play with her SO bad. She tried everything. she watched, she pounced, she ran at them. They would have none of it and set her in her place. To this day, Bailey respect them and loves them. Don't automatically assume the pit bull is going to eat the little dogs. She is a puppy and just wants a friend. Y'all are reading WAY too much into the actions of a 3 month old puppy!! If you treat this dog with fear and act like she is going to rip your head off, she will pick up on that and it will cause a lot of anxiety in her. Treat her like a regular, sweet pup and don't brainwash those children into being afraid of her. That's the worst thing you can do to them!


And I could tell stories where the pitt just wanted to play, but then when it was about 8-10 months it, for whatever reason, killed the doxie/heeler pup/lab mix that helped raised it. *shrug*

This is NOT about the breed. It's about a guy who shouldn't have one, getting one.

And no one, anywhere, said anything about making the children afraid of it. Most children are not fluent in "dog". I've seen a twelve year old girl run up to a doxie and squeal in his face, and he, of course, went ape. I grabbed the little dog instinctively, while she kept right up in his face squeaking away. I kind of got on to her in my terror (little dox was snarling and snapping like a mousetrap) and later felt a bit bad because a) not my dog and b) not my kid. Nevermind she about got her face torn up.  They just don't KNOW what resrouce guarding looks like, and it ends badly, whether it's a Golden or a Pitt (or a GSD or a Pom, for that matter). 

Please don't kneejerk into Breed Protection Mode. A man is concerned for his grandkids and wants to know what he can do to help keep them safe. That is a GOOD thing, for kids and dog!

I'm kind of in the camp of "Don't get a high energy breed if you can't devote the time and training". That just never ends well. It's like handing a kid an SKS to go squirrel hunting.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

But she has no proof that the SIL isn't trying. Is the dog chained up and ignored? Or is she allowed to interact with the other dogs and kids? The OP sounds like she is terrified by pit bulls and isn't even willing to give that pup a chance. This is not a tiger who's wild instincts tell it to kill. It's a puppy who's instincts are to love it's family and it's pack mates. ALL dogs need to be worked with and corrected or they may not turn out well. How are the other dogs in the family? Have they ever attacked anyone? Pit bulls have been bred to be aggressive to other dogs, but they have not been bred to be aggressive toward humans any more than a poodle is aggressive towards humans. I don't think she has even given this pup a chance, instead judging it by the stories she has heard and nothing else.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Justin Thyme said:


> Actually there is very little (read _NO_) doubt in my mind that this dog is just being dropped into the family mix with the previous puppy a sweet little thing and everybody (human) pretty much on the laissez-faire side of life.


ITU. They were just my neighbor kids and thank heavens the dog was innately good with the children (not so much livestock, which was his eventual undoing). He had really bad owners too. 

I really hope he's a good dog and you'll have nothing to worry about. Sometimes even a fool (sorry. Your SIL is one in this situation. It happens) gets a wonderful dog.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

If you look at previous posts from Justin Thyme regarding pitbulls it is apparent that the puppy is already deemed a killer in his eyes no matter how it acts. I doubt a 3 month old puppy was really walking around stalking everyone waiting to make its kill. It looks like romanticism to justify his "need to intervene. 



> Your home security system has a bad history of turning on the home and tearing it to pieces. Your children are living under a constant threat of being killed or maimed by their sweet6 and amusing little pal. Your dog is quite likely to give your neighbors good reason to shoot it.





> I do not like pitbulls and consider them to be dangerous, hair trigger weapons. I do not know if Hannibal would have bitten a child but I do not doubt he could have caught one had he really wanted to. I don't think he would have. He wouldn't have snapped at the adult if he hadn't come out of the store. Pitbulls seem to have an instinctive, innate killer instinct, killer desire, killer joy....
> My 2c.


I have a hard time believing we are getting the whole story here, but instead a one sided version as to how the op sees things.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks all. I'm trying to decide on the best way to deal with this. They are~250 miles away. Live in a nice home in the woods and both puppies are just set out to wander much of the day. There are other homes nearby, all properties (and the dogs) unfenced and farms within wandering distance as the dogs grow older.

These are people who don't even take care of their cars. Their five year old Escalade (don't ask) "fell apart". Their Honda isn't running and the new HHR needs about a thousand dollars worth of engine work. 

SIL hasn't had a job in years and his idea of making money is buying used things and hoping he can sell them for more than he paid. (Hasn't happened yet.) Currently he wants to get a job as an "armed guard" because he now owns a gun in addition to the PB pup. If he does it will be a first. That is all part of my concern.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

JasoninMN said:


> I have a hard time believing we are getting the whole story here, but instead a one sided version as to how the op sees things.


OF COURSE you are getting MY side of it. And that's why I'm asking for information/support about what I may do, if anything.

Yeah. I DO NOT LIKE PIT BULLS. I'm a petsitter and will not have a PB as a client. I have met many, many dogs and some have been rather poorly natured. I will take my chances with a Chiwawa (and have) but not with a 90 pound dog that has been bred to kill/maim/hurt whether it is trained to or not. 

WHY have such a dog if you are not the kind of person who will put in the time to properly train it? These are people who kept their previous dog on a rope, and left it (for the petsitter, me) tied to their porch, for me to come the NEXT day. Despite the temps being in the 90s. I came out that day anyway and the dog was near heat stroke, wrapped around a porch piling in the sun. So I brought it home (it was family) and discovered it had never gotten its shots. So I got it shots. A year later I got a notice that it was due for another set of shots. They didn't take it. I offered to pay for and help build a fence for the dog. They chose not to. The dog subsequently got off its _rope_, ran off and was never seen again.

These pups don't have their own fenced in area. Never will. 

You can demean my reasons and dislike my breed-prejudice but I stick by them and am asking for advice.... not criticism.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

JasoninMN said:


> If you look at previous posts from Justin Thyme regarding pitbulls it is apparent that the puppy is already deemed a killer in his eyes no matter how it acts. I doubt a 3 month old puppy was really walking around stalking everyone waiting to make its kill. It looks like romanticism to justify his "need to intervene.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I imagine grandad wants to be wrong and the dog to turn out to be absolutely wonderful. But if you have negligent owners and a dog allowed to run loose, you rarely see a Lassie come out of that upbringing. 

Really Jason, there is no need to be rude. 

Let's all look at the specific concerns and situation rather than freaking out in defense of our breed of choice or maligning a poster. 

Things you can get away with with a laid back or small breed, you simply cannot with a high energy large one. We've all seen a dog in an inapropriate situation end badly, whether that dog is a lab, a doxie, a border collie or a pitt.


Bad owners are a problem no matter the breed. This dog has them.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The sad fact is, there is nothing you CAN do. I don't like it that my son drives around on an ATV. I know it's dangerous, but he is an adult to make his own decisions. If your son in law gets rid of this dog, he could get a rottie or shepherd next and those ARE breeds that were designed to attack humans. At least pit bulls were designed to attack other dogs and not people. But ANY breed running loose is a problem and is probably illegal where he lives. Maybe you will luck out an an angry neighbor will shoot the dogs for chasing livestock.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

BarbadosSheep said:


> If your son in law gets rid of this dog, he could get a rottie or shepherd next and those ARE breeds that were designed to attack humans. At least pit bulls were designed to attack other dogs and not people. But ANY breed running loose is a problem and is probably illegal where he lives. Maybe you will luck out an an angry neighbor will shoot the dogs for chasing livestock.


Actually I wouldn't put it past him. What the heck were Pits designed to do in the first place? Why do they 'hate' other dogs? I do suppose that they can be carefully bred to be less violent but it is the reputation for sudden violence that concerns me. Sudden and unpredictable.

I'm concerned for my granddaughters and my daughter. I won't consider myself lucky if some angry neighbor ends up shooting something because the dog is chasing children. I've even considered that I don't want to have to be the one who shoots the childrens dog. 

They do live in "the county" where the leash laws are (or were when I lived there) non-restrictive.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Pit bulls were bred to fight other dogs. In the fighting world, a dog vicious to humans is a bad thing because the ring handlers need to be able to handle whatever dogs are fighting. Pit bulls make terrible watch dogs because they are so accepting of people, including strangers. All countries have their own version of fighting dogs, pit bulls are american. Many of the terrier breeds were developed to destroy other dogs too. The guard dog breeds were developed to be multi-purpose animals, with one of their purposes to attack humans. Rotties, malanois, shepherds, giant schnauzers, mastiffs, and others were never meant to be house pets. So honestly I fear those breeds around my grandson than my pitbull.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> I will take my chances with a Chiwawa (and have) but not with a 90 pound dog that has been bred to kill/maim/hurt whether it is trained to or not.
> 
> You can demean my reasons and dislike my breed-prejudice but I stick by them and am asking for advice.... not criticism.


1. there is no such thing as a 90# pit bulldog. there is a reason weight classes in the USA end at 60#. a 90# pit bulldog wouldn't be able to walk around the coffe table w/o dying of exhaustion due to obesity.

2. they were not bred to kill, that style of dog generally leads to short fights which make it difficult to test the dogs tenacity. they were bred for high dog aggression, endurance, high pain tolerance & courage (most of which also brought along high intelligence and therefore difficult to train by simpletons that can't control a BYB pet lab).

3. you asked for criticism by expressing your prejudice the same as if you'd expressed concern if they had let some random ******/colored/***** move in w/ them. like any prejudice it is based in ignorance & propaganda. and like some people no amount of education is going to open your mind to view things objectively.

honest advice
talk w/ your DD. don't say anything that demeans your SIL (demeaning him is demeaning her by default since she chose him to be her husband). express concern that the pit bulldog is a breed w/ above average intelligence & needs above average training & supervision to avoid trouble. express how sad you'd be for your grandchildren if something happened to the dog. anything beyond that & you'll be overstepping yourself & causing hard feelings.

my last curXbulldog has been dead 5 years and my DW still gets PO'd at my father for the stupid things he said telling us to get rid of him. even more infuriating is the fact that his heeler tried to take a bite out of my younger daughter and my greyhoundX. see his comments inferred that we were stupid, unfit parents that would glady endanger our children and that still makes the DW angry.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> 1. there is no such thing as a 90# pit bulldog. there is a reason weight classes in the USA end at 60#. a 90# pit bulldog wouldn't be able to walk around the coffe table w/o dying of exhaustion due to obesity.
> *
> Who cares? That's not the point.*
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice. I'm looking for approaches to her.... This will help.


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

How new is the puppy? This is a picture of my boxer/lab/pit mix the very first day i got her. 










See how unsure she looks and is all hunched over? She wasn't used to her new home yet. If the puppy is brand new this may be the case. 

Another pic the same day she looks frightened lol. 










Not all pits are bad, I will agree that some of it is genetics but most of it is training. As long as they get this puppy started right and train it in a non aggressive manner they shouldn't have any problems. My dog had fear aggression when i got her and i got her with a good trainer and here she is today. 



















She's awesome with kids, SISIL had her kids over here not too long and she was unsure at first because of her breed if she wanted her kids around Angel, but they love her now that they've been around her. 


I agree with everyone else tred lightly you don't want to make your daughter feel like you attacking her over the dog.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

the point is you're prejudiced against a breed you can't even recognize (like most people).


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

"Honey" is three months old, her feet are huge and according to SIL she is a 'red' coat. She has a much broader face than Angel does.
Your photo of Angel being "pinned" by the kitten and kissing the rabbit are comforting but "A" looks less intimidating than Honey does. They've had her for a few weeks at this point.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> the point is you're prejudiced against a breed you can't even recognize (like most people).


I am sort of prejudiced against unnecessary violence and the endangerment of other people, especially children. THAT'S the point.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> honest advice
> talk w/ your DD. don't say anything that demeans your SIL (demeaning him is demeaning her by default since she chose him to be her husband). express concern that the pit bulldog is a breed w/ above average intelligence & needs above average training & supervision to avoid trouble. express how sad you'd be for your grandchildren if something happened to the dog. anything beyond that & you'll be overstepping yourself & causing hard feelings.


 Best advice I've read anywhere in months.


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## davimi (Jul 12, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> statistically pit bulls are less likely to bite than a lab. the problem is that if they do bite it's usually more damaging. .


Not according to what I read...http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-statistics.htm

I had a good friend who raised Pit Bulls. He was always trying to get me to buy one from him. I told him that I wouldn't raise my children around one. He would jump on his soap box and tell me that it is all in how you raise them. A few years later he and his wife had twin girls. They suddenly got rid of all of the dogs within a year. He realized that he couldn't risk it.

I have no advice on how to talk to your daughter. I find that most Pit Bull owners are very defensive over their animals.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

davimi said:


> Not according to what I read...http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-statistics.htm
> 
> I had a good friend who raised Pit Bulls. He was always trying to get me to buy one from him. I told him that I wouldn't raise my children around one. He would jump on his soap box and tell me that it is all in how you raise them. A few years later he and his wife had twin girls. They suddenly got rid of all of the dogs within a year. He realized that he couldn't risk it.
> 
> I have no advice on how to talk to your daughter. I find that most Pit Bull owners are very defensive over their animals.


the site is put together by an ambulance chaser that considers boxers a "pit bull type" dog. CDC stats gathered on *reported* bites around the country show that the number of bites a breed is involved in correlates directly to the breeds popularity. EXCEPT for pit bulls are far lower in total bites than what their population is. they are the ONLY high popularity breed that is.


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## davimi (Jul 12, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> the site is put together by an ambulance chaser that considers boxers a "pit bull type" dog. CDC stats gathered on *reported* bites around the country show that the number of bites a breed is involved in correlates directly to the breeds popularity. EXCEPT for pit bulls are far lower in total bites than what their population is. they are the ONLY high popularity breed that is.


You may be right that the site is sponsored by an ambulance chaser but... check out the CDCs site http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

It doesn't paint a pretty picture for owning a Pit Bull (or a cross breed of a Pit) The overwhelming majority of fatalities were caused by this breed. Do you have a link for the information that you mentioned?


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## KySam (Dec 1, 2009)

Justin Thyme said:


> Thanks all. I'm trying to decide on the best way to deal with this. They are~250 miles away. Live in a nice home in the woods and both puppies are just set out to wander much of the day. There are other homes nearby, all properties (and the dogs) unfenced and farms within wandering distance as the dogs grow older.]Quote
> 
> Wandering much of the day is a bad thing. The PB puppy will get stolen by someone. If that doesnt happen it will be shot by someone that relates a PB with attacking and killing things.
> 
> ...


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

davimi said:


> You may be right that the site is sponsored by an ambulance chaser but... check out the CDCs site http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf
> 
> It doesn't paint a pretty picture for owning a Pit Bull (or a cross breed of a Pit) The overwhelming majority of fatalities were caused by this breed. Do you have a link for the information that you mentioned?



the absolute HIGHEST number of fatalities, from* ALL DOG ATTACKS,* NEVER exceeded 30 in a single year. and pit bulls as ID'd by "competant experts" have never reached half that number (even counting mixes that may not even have any pitbull in them). it's not hard to have an "overwhelming majority" of that small a number. what all of THAT means, is that you literally have 2-3X more chance of being *killed by lightning *(which kills about 70 people a year) than ANY dog attack and about 5X more chance than being killed by pit bulls. so pit bulls are safer than lightning. won't even get into deer.
keep digging on the CDC site. if the total bite info is still up, it's there somewhere. i used to keep it on my favorites 2 computers ago. i no longer go nuts about trying to change people's minds that are happy in their ignorance. if you care enough to *try* to prove it wrong, you can do the research.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> I am sort of prejudiced against *unnecessary violence and the endangerment of other people*, especially children. THAT'S the point.


so you're down for banning alcohol, cars and politicians? every one of those is more directly related to unnecessary violence &/or endangerment of people than all other factors combined.


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## Caren (Aug 4, 2005)

I have a pt bull that I adore but I might have to get rid of him. He is a happy pee er. It just shoots all over the place But he is loving and afffectionate eager to please. If it wasn't for the peeing problem I would never get rid of him.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> so you're down for banning alcohol, cars and politicians? every one of those is more directly related to unnecessary violence &/or endangerment of people than all other factors combined.


Darn right on politicians, Pops2!
As for alcohol. I don't care. Leave it to the grown ups.
Cars? That's just plain silly.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Would you have been concerned if your son in law had gotten a lab puppy? Because honestly, a puppy, to some extent, is like a blank slate. Pit bulls are NOT predisposed to be aggressive. There is a pitbull rescue near me that is doing really well, I probably know 20 people in the area with adopted pit bulls. Some of these dogs come from HORRIBLE, abusive backgrounds where they were beaten, neglected and treated horribly. They ALL have turned out to be wonderful dogs, I have not met one yet that is aggressive or unpredictable. They are happy, energetic, social, loving dogs. I know that there are aggressive pit bulls out there, but I personally have never met one. I have met aggressive labs, golden retrievers, pugs (I was mauled by a pug when I was 2 years old and needed 5 stitches in my face), hounds, corgis, greyhounds, great danes, etc. Never a pit bull. 

I agree with others who have claimed that there is a clear prejudice here. Don't get defensive just because we are trying to point out something that you can't see for yourself. You say you have "second hand" experience that justifies your opinion toward all pit bulls, could you say a little more about that? You must realize, of course, that all websites and news articles have something that they want to portray to you, and will pull facts that support their argument and leave out facts that don't. The media is not giving you a complete/nonbiased report on breed statistics.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Justin Thyme said:


> Darn right on politicians, Pops2!
> As for alcohol. I don't care. Leave it to the grown ups.
> Cars? That's just plain silly.


Why is that just plain silly? You realize the statistics on the number of people who are killed or injured in car-related accidents each year compared to the number of people who are injured by pit bulls? I bet the dogs wouldn't even show up on the chart. Does your son-in-law drive a car?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Even most of the Micahel Vic pit bulls have been rehabilitated and placed into loving forever homes. And those dogs went through pure hell. This week on the news they found a beautiful young male pit bull on the side of the road. All of his teeth had been sawed off and he was covered in bite marks from head to toe. They think he was probably a bait dog, used for training fighting dogs. This dog is less than a year old and suffered terribly at the hands of his abusers. And his disposition is sweet and gentle, even to a kitten at the rescue place. He will need extensive oral surgery to remove the remains of his teeth roots and there is a long list of people wanting to adopt him.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

TroutRiver said:


> Would you have been concerned if your son in law had gotten a lab puppy?
> 
> *No. I believe Labs have a better track record but I still wouldn't leave a child alone with any dog. By the same token I think it is easier to pull a Lab off of someone than a Pit.*
> 
> ...





TroutRiver said:


> Why is that just plain silly? You realize the statistics on the number of people who are killed or injured in car-related accidents each year compared to the number of people who are injured by pit bulls? I bet the dogs wouldn't even show up on the chart. Does your son-in-law drive a car?


Nor, I expect, will Honey be driving anytime soon. Boy, what a dangerous combination that would be. A Pitbull with a car! Yowch.

And yes, he _does_ drive. But never terribly far or terribly long because he doesn't take good care of his cars or maintain them properly!! That is why I worry. He gets things, is excited by them, then tends to ignore them. You can't do that with a dog. 

Cars are inanimate objects. Like guns and swords and throwing stars they just lay, sit or stand around, never ever moving on their own. (See: http://montego.roughwheelers.com/gun_cam.html ) If my grand daughters were in a room with a gun, say hanging over the mantle, I would have no worries. (If it were in my SIL's hands I'd be concerned.) But a PB isn't an inanimate object. It is a living, breathing, thinking (and we're told quite intelligent, in a doggy sort of way) 60 pounds of muscle and teeth that I DO NOT TRUST. 

Comparative statistics are utterly meaningless and should I assume that you were only playing around and poking at me for even bringing it up?

I am looking for advice about a situation I am concerned about. Being told I am prejudiced and have little or nothing to be concerned about doesn't help me. (It may help you because you think you have another forum to push your own preferences.) I am seeking advice on how to approach and talk with my daughter about it. I have actually gotten some very helpful suggestions and supportive feedback. To all of those, Thank You. To those of you who want to push your tooth agendas, "I Pitty the fools." (Just couldn't resist. Just read a book about Hulk Hogan and Mr T.)


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

OK, deeeeeeep breath, folks.

First, Honey is a "she" which steps her down (as a rule) a notch from loaded gun with the safety off to just "loaded gun."

Second, be sure that you daughter doesn't already know the risks...she very well might already be alarmed. Talk to her calmly and ask if they have any plans for doggie obedience school, if you can afford it, offer to pay for the class as your "Welcome Doggie" gift. I know I would have accepted it had it been offered to me with my chow pup.

Third, the dog needs HEAVY socialization. As in, out and around people daily (ask me how I know getting complacent with your "aggressive" dog breeds can come back and bite you in the rear end.

Talk to the grandkids, don't scare them, about what is "appropriate" play and what is not. The pup needs to know NOW that it isn't acceptable to put his mouth on a human, EVER.

I know it's hard to see a potential train wreck coming, but if you interfere too much you might only succeed in driving the daughter away.

Everyone can share pit bull stories, good and bad. Everyone can share chow stories, good and bad. MY dog never...I knew this dog once that...all this goes to show is that there is a potential for any dog to be a good dog or a bad dog. As someone stated so perfectly in a prior post, the pup is a blank slate right now. I personally DO know some good pitbulls. As a Paramedic, I have also seen some horror stories that would keep you awake at night. I am not sure I would step up from a chow to a pitbull, myself, and yes, I DO worry when DD goes to her cousins to play because she has the two "good" pitbulls...always in the back of my mind is, "what if?" 

I agree, this man doesn't seem to have the personality to have a pitbull...some breeds take very special, INFORMED people to raise. I hope this dog turns out to be a "good story."

I don't blame you for being wary. Just know that being a pit doesn't automatically amke him evil, and keep your eyes open. Sadly, there is nothing you can do to undo what has been done.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Ban guns too because they kill people, Right? Its the gun that kills not the person who pulled the trigger. Its the same with dogs, if the owner keeps them controlled there will be no accidents. Its amazes me what a bunch of sheep this country has become, following the media and politicians never question anything. And its a miracle if anyone in this country could actually be accountable for anything they have caused. There is always something to fall back on a depression, child abuse, sex addiction, ADHD, whatever it is there is always a underlying blame. Here is an idea, when someones dog kills a person unprovoked while intentional or not charge them with murder and make it stick. Instead most walk free, a few might spend a year or two in jail and are good too go. I have had numerous dogs over the years, bull breeds and otherwise. I have yet to have a dog escape from me, bite a human, or damage someones property, so I wonder when did owning a dog become so difficult? When I was 10 years old my first dog was a rottweiler, even at the age I was able to figure out dog ownership and how to keep a dog in the yard and from not biting someone. Seems that is beyond most adults now days. 

Now for sure this epidemic of pit bull attacks is a breed thing right? That is what the flock leaders aka media has told us. There are over 50 million pits in the U.S. The amount that attack people are a very small percentage of the breed. However, pitbulls are the most abused breed on the planet and we turn an eye on that because they are pitbulls. They have been separated from all other breeds into a class of their own. How often do you see the media report about a pitbull being burned alive, stabbed a 100 times, beaten to death, starved to death, tortured for hours etc, hardly ever. It does not sell papers. Over 75% of the countries animal abuse cases involve pitbulls. The nice family dog that suddenly attacks as the media writes the story is almost always a victim of animal abuse, that doesn't free a dog of its actions though. "Family pitbull turns and kills toddler" makes a better headliner then "dog tethered in back yard and neglected for five years attacks child while parents are in bed sleeping." Pit bulls are dogs too, and there is always a explanation for their behavior. 

Dogs can be used to pursue prey and kill it. There are badger dogs, hog dogs, fox dogs, coyote dogs, dogs that kill deer and a variety of other animals that are killed by dogs with the aid of man. There are dogs breed too attack humans and that is okay with society. When a LGD kills the neighbors dog, the owner brags about it, I have seen that on this board. When a terrier kills a raccoon its okay to post the pictures and everyone applauds, some how this is all acceptable to most people. This does not breed "aggression." Now when a dog has been bred to fight other dogs its some how the most immoral thing on the planet and the dog is unstable. Guess what, that is all a bunch of B.S. that has been distributed by animal welfare groups and the media. Dogs by nature are aggressive with strange canines. They evolved from wolves, a wolves worst enemy is another wolf outside its pack. Dog aggression is common to most dogs and believe it or not, dogs are not humans and don't need day care and dog parks to socialize and be happy. People are so out of touch with dogs being dogs that they view dog aggression as the same as human to human violence. Dog aggression is not related to human aggression. Dogs really are smart enough to tell a human from another dog and pit dog is not anymore of a threat to a human then a terrier bred to kill vermin. 

Banning pit-bulls will be the cure right? Not so much. The UK passed their dangerous dog act in 1991, banning pit bulls and the tosa inus, since that time dogs attacks on humans has risen 66%. Breed bans do not work, people will move to other more dangerous breeds. If the media and animal activist groups where to get there way and have pit bulls banned they will move to another group of dogs. Most likely it would be hunting dogs and then LGD's could be next. It would not be hard to portray them as abused dogs, left neglected in fields their entire life with nothing but sheep to keep them company. Rarely feed and expected to fight off large predators and rarely getting vet treatment for their wounds...blah blah blah Soon as it gets published people will eat it right up.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

beccachow said:


> I agree, this man doesn't seem to have the personality to have a pitbull...some breeds take very special, INFORMED people to raise. I hope this dog turns out to be a "good story."
> 
> I don't blame you for being wary. Just know that being a pit doesn't automatically make him evil, and keep your eyes open. Sadly, there is nothing you can do to undo what has been done.


Thank you. Please. I don't consider any breed of dog to be "evil" as such. I do think that this is all on a continuum and I see PBs somewhere down on the end. I am (well not really) sure that with proper care and husbandry PBs make fine "pets" for some people, in some situations. Just don't drop by with yours and don't expect me to pet-sit it.

So _yes_ I am concerned about the dog being a PB. 

From everything I have read in this thread I am even more concerned knowing the lackadaisical ownership it will have.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

JasoninMN said:


> Ban guns too because they kill people, Right?
> 
> They have been separated from all other breeds into a class of their own.
> 
> *Probably because they are (I have been told on this thread) to fight with and kill all other dogs. *


Who said anything about banning?

Public education was supposed to ban ignorance and that is rampant.

People kill people. Perhaps we should simply ban US? That would solve ALL of our problems.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> Public education was supposed to ban ignorance and that is rampant.


The irony is that sentence is HILARIOUS!

The only thing you have posted is ignorant biases 

Thanks for the laugh. 

Banning entered the topic on post #40.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

JasoninMN said:


> The irony is that sentence is HILARIOUS!
> 
> The only thing you have posted is ignorant biases
> 
> ...


And I thank God that you are in Minnesota where, apparently, they don't have public education.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Justin, the ownership really is the only thing that "red flags" to me, too. All you can do is intervene without seeming to be intervening. Tough situation.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I am not a fan on prejudging dog by its breed BUT we must remember 50% of temperament IS genetic.
as posted some abused PB's turn out to make wonderful pets. WHY? because they have good temperaments in the first place.
well treated dogs of any breed can turn if they have unstable temperaments. PB's are one of the breeds that have been bred by unknowledgeable people to be "the bad dog" many times they breed unstable to unstable. That IS worrysum.
They can be wonderful dogs IF bred by knowledgeable breeders.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

beccachow said:


> Justin, the ownership really is the only thing that "red flags" to me, too. All you can do is intervene without seeming to be intervening. Tough situation.


Yep.

Why oh why do people who don't want to spend the time on a dog, always seem to get the most dog they can get their hands on? Maybe it's just that an untrained spaniel mix is less annoying/attention getting than an untrained bulldog. Here's an idea, if you aren't an active person with an interest in training a dog, stay away from anything with "terrier" anywhere in the breed name. No ratties, no yorkies, no cairns, and no pitts.

It's a mishmash of nature/nurture as to how a dog turns out.

I'm another who is glad the dog is female. She's likely going to be alot less dog than her brothers, and if they spay her that will help a great deal too. I do know many a pitt who nannies her human charges at the risk of her own safety, most are female but you do get the occasional child-besotted male. Hopefully she lives up to her name and is a credit to the breed. 

I have to say, I really don't understand the use of the term "breed prejudice". It's a dog. It's not a character flaw to dislike certain breeds, or even dogs in general. Truly.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

tailwagging said:


> I am not a fan on prejudging dog by its breed BUT we must remember 50% of temperament IS genetic.
> as posted some abused PB's turn out to make wonderful pets. WHY? because they have good temperaments in the first place.
> well treated dogs of any breed can turn if they have unstable temperaments. PB's are one of the breeds that have been bred by unknowledgeable people to be "the bad dog" many times they breed unstable to unstable. That IS worrysum.
> They can be wonderful dogs IF bred by knowledgeable breeders.


A big part of my concern as well. SIL tends to buy things on the cheap from shady people.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

jen74145 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Why oh why do people who don't want to spend the time on a dog, always seem to get the most dog they can get their hands on? Maybe it's just that an untrained *spaniel *mix is less annoying/attention getting than an untrained bulldog. Here's an idea, if you aren't an active person with an interest in training a dog, stay away from anything with "terrier" anywhere in the breed name. No ratties, no yorkies, no cairns, and no pitts.
> 
> ...


the fact you used spaniel is hilarious irony. there is a genetically passed mental condition called spaniel rage syndrome. it occurs in all breeds of spaniels but is most common in cockers & least common in field bred springers. it litterally is everything the pit is accused of, unprovoked highly aggressive attacks w/ no body language to warn of it.
where that coincides is that pit bulldogs generally don't exhibit warning signs in the box, in fact they generally show signs of happiness like tailwagging prior to & during a match.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

So my (wonderful) daughter sent this email, which I will share:
"_Honey is a full Pit. Her mom is a red nosed pit and her dad is a half red, half blue. She is a clumsy, sweet baby and I wish you had more time to spend with her. She wasn't nipping at all until Emi started going after her ankles and her ears.
Emi is half beagle, half rat terrier. She is domineering over Honey and Honey will not usually venture to far without Emi._"

I know that what puppies learn to do, dogs do do. This seems to be a very good sign for all involved. Eventually Emi will be about the size of Honey's head. On the other hand the the fact that she is nipping is not a good sign. Many mixed blessings all around.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> the fact you used spaniel is hilarious irony. there is a genetically passed mental condition called spaniel rage syndrome. it occurs in all breeds of spaniels but is most common in cockers & least common in field bred springers. it litterally is everything the pit is accused of, unprovoked highly aggressive attacks w/ no body language to warn of it.
> where that coincides is that pit bulldogs generally don't exhibit warning signs in the box, in fact they generally show signs of happiness like tailwagging prior to & during a match.


really?? Maybe that would explain the nut-case spanial mix I adopted years ago. She was so cute and we wanted to get a small dog for the kids. We had her for maybe 2 weeks and she snapped. I mean BAD nuts. She attacked my husband and was chewing his hand up. He had to hit her to make her let go. I took her to the pound, told them to euthanize her and check for rabies. I am just glad it was him that got attacked and not one of my kids. I guess that explains why she was "free to good home". :grit:


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Justin Thyme said:


> So my (wonderful) daughter sent this email, which I will share:
> "_Honey is a full Pit. Her mom is a red nosed pit and her dad is a half red, half blue. She is a clumsy, sweet baby and I wish you had more time to spend with her. She wasn't nipping at all until Emi started going after her ankles and her ears.
> Emi is half beagle, half rat terrier. She is domineering over Honey and Honey will not usually venture to far without Emi._"
> 
> I know that what puppies learn to do, dogs do do. This seems to be a very good sign for all involved. Eventually Emi will be about the size of Honey's head. On the other hand the the fact that she is nipping is not a good sign. Many mixed blessings all around.


she was defending herself against a dog who was nipping at her first. She does not understand that Emi is much smaller.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> the fact you used spaniel is hilarious irony. there is a genetically passed mental condition called spaniel rage syndrome. it occurs in all breeds of spaniels but is most common in cockers & least common in field bred springers. it litterally is everything the pit is accused of, unprovoked highly aggressive attacks w/ no body language to warn of it.
> where that coincides is that pit bulldogs generally don't exhibit warning signs in the box, in fact they generally show signs of happiness like tailwagging prior to & during a match.


See, I don't consider cockers spaniels. I think of them as "Grandma's Wicked Little Hellbeasts".  At least the American bred ones. One of those onmy "No way,no how" list.

Cockers are one I would never, ever own, but most spaniels are just sweet little housepets these days. Cavs, Tibetans, Chins... Y'know. The floofy things that are, assuming raised by a sane person, about as harmless as a kitten.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Darn right on politicians, Pops2!
> As for alcohol. I don't care. Leave it to the grown ups.
> Cars? That's just plain silly.


yeah, i'm down w/ banning politicians myself. BUT alcohol is the BIGGEST contributing factor to random violence & habitual abusive violence in the country. end drinking and you'll cut both by at least half. car wrecks kill as many people every years as died during the whole vietnam war. where these line up w/ dog attacks is that 99% of ALL these deaths are preventable. but the point of comparison (& why i like the lightning comparison) is to show just how small the numbers are & how irrational it is to overreact to the situation.

since the dog is named Honey & is a red nose, is it likely the dog's bloodline is Honeybunch? if so the risk is VERY low as honeybunch is one of the less damaged lines out there. however if the dogs are Dagger or Big Block which are a crossbred line the risk is greater.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

jen74145 said:


> See, I don't consider cockers spaniels. I think of them as "Grandma's Wicked Little Hellbeasts".  At least the American bred ones. One of those onmy "No way,no how" list.
> 
> Cockers are one I would never, ever own, but most spaniels are just sweet little housepets these days. Cavs, Tibetans, Chins... Y'know. The floofy things that are, assuming raised by a sane person, about as harmless as a kitten.


but when you say spaniel most people automatically think cocker. hunters probably think springer first. and there are more breeds of hunting spaniels than toy spaniels.
don't discount toy dogs, over the years several have mauled infants to death.
which goes back to the caution of never leave children alone w/ ANY dog.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

BarbadosSheep said:


> she was defending herself against a dog who was nipping at her first. She does not understand that Emi is much smaller.


Are you another PB defender or simply pointing out the obvious? 

I guess the concern is her puppy-snaps extend to humans as well. All puppies playfully nip each other. It's how they play. Consensus seems to be, though, that nipping needs to be discouraged in PBs. Immediately. Maybe especially with other dogs since that is what they are bred to fight with.

I am always wary when some client says that their dog is really good but kills cats. What?


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

*sigh*

Not one group in the pit vs anti-pit is going to change each other's mind. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts and that's completely okay. Calling people names or alluding to their intelligence as lacking or going so far as to accuse them of being prejudice (it's a freakin' DOG y'all!) is ridiculous. 

The original poster posted because he has concerns ABOUT A SPECIFIC SITUATION his family is facing and asked opinions on how to deal with it. He didn't ask your opinion on his opinions. Yes, I know it's a message board and people can post whatever they want, but ----- give it up already!

The end result is that it's HIS family and his choice to handle the situation however he wants and feels is best, regardless of anyone else's thoughts on the subject.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> yeah, i'm down w/ banning politicians myself. BUT alcohol is the BIGGEST contributing factor to random violence & habitual abusive violence in the country. end drinking and you'll cut both by at least half. car wrecks kill as many people every years as died during the whole vietnam war. where these line up w/ dog attacks is that 99% of ALL these deaths are preventable. but the point of comparison (& why i like the lightning comparison) is to show just how small the numbers are & how irrational it is to overreact to the situation.
> 
> *We (I use the "we" advisedly) tried banning alcohol when, eighty, ninety years ago. Didn't work so good. Just as banning drugs today isn't working that well either. But yes, you are of course correct. If we all lived in arcologies (like in Sim City, for example) then noone would need a car. As it is nearly everyone does. The bottom line is that when it comes to inanimate and mind-altering items we come back to reliance on individual human responsibility.*
> 
> ...


And* that* is what I have to say about that.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Not one group in the pit vs anti-pit is going to change each other's mind. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts and that's completely okay. Calling people names or alluding to their stupidity as lacking or going so far as to accuse them of being prejudice (it's a freakin' DOG y'all!) is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Thank You.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Not one group in the pit vs anti-pit is going to change each other's mind. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts and that's completely okay. Calling people names or alluding to their stupidity as lacking or going so far as to accuse them of being prejudice (it's a freakin' DOG y'all!) is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Now Rose, you know breed prejudice is a very real problem. Completely worth namecalling and questioning the intelligence of those who do not welcome every breed into their lives with open arms and milkbones for all.

I couldn't even type that with a straight face.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> I am always wary when some client says that their dog is really good but kills cats. What?


again dogs can differentiate between people & other animals. they can also differentiate between dogs & other animals. in fact, according to my aussie friends, their running dogs can differentiate between dingos & feral dogs and dogs that are kept by people.
i have a greyhoundXsaluki that has killed MANY cats (five in his own yard in one year), fox, raccoon, possum, skunk, rats, squirrel, rabbit and caught deer & wild boar. Sonic is absolutely the most people friendly dog i've ever had. i still have to watch him around kids because he will lick a small child to tears & knock other kids down while playing because he doesn't understand his own size. the dane i rescently got from the pound is just as people friendly and just as cat unfriendly. she even killed a coyote pup a couple of weeks ago, but w/my children her biggest threat is her size as she rubs against them seeking some loving.
if fighting, catching or killing other animals made a dog a threat to people, hounds would kill hundreds to thousands every year.
ETA the only problem i can see w/ a cat killing dog is that you have to be more careful as a sitter.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> again dogs can differentiate between people & other animals. they can also differentiate between dogs & other animals. in fact, according to my aussie friends, their running dogs can differentiate between dingos & feral dogs and dogs that are kept by people.
> i have a greyhoundXsaluki that has killed MANY cats (five in his own yard in one year), fox, raccoon, possum, skunk, rats, squirrel, rabbit and caught deer & wild boar.


Dogs have a prey instinct. I know. Even my Pyr, when confronted with one of his best in-house friends, Peter, outside chased him. You should have seen that cat stretch out to get the heck back inside where the dog was, once again, his best friend.

My quibble. Such as it is. Is. If your dog kills things what do you do to help keep that from happening or do you consider it a quaint and endearing characteristic?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

jen74145 said:


> Now Rose, you know breed prejudice is a very real problem. Completely worth namecalling and questioning the intelligence of those who do not welcome every breed into their lives with open arms and milkbones for all.
> 
> I couldn't even type that with a straight face.


actually it is a real problem because people are more than willing to legislate their prejudice which is bad enough. but on top of it is the very real problem that such legislation without fail has had adverse consequence on breeds NOT specifically ID'd in the legislation. further where it has been enacted on a large scale like britains DDA & the dutch pit bull ban it has actually escalated the problem it sought to cure.
everyone needs to decide for themselves what breed of dog is best suited to them but it is not your place (nor mine) to decide that for your neighbors.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Dogs have a prey instinct. I know. Even my Pyr, when confronted with one of his best in-house friends, Peter, outside chased him. You should have seen that cat stretch out to get the heck back inside where the dog was, once again, his best friend.
> 
> My quibble. Such as it is. Is. If your dog kills things what do you do to help keep that from happening or do you consider it a quaint and endearing characteristic?


for alot of people it is accepted because of the problems caused by free roaming cats. i don't have an issue w/ it in my yard or in the wilderness areas i hunt. at the same time i think it would be very unneighborly to just let them whack every free roaming cat we see in the neighborhood.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

I've never had a PB so I can't speak from personal experience, but of those I've been around, every one that was mean was TAUGHT to be mean...those that weren't were just big lap babies.

Any breed of dog can be taught to be mean and aggressive, but the danger of some breeds (such as the PB) is in the sheer force/strength of their bite.

If your SIL has shown himself to be an irresponsible pet owner, I understand your concern, though.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

hippygirl said:


> I've never had a PB so I can't speak from personal experience, but of those I've been around, every one that was mean was TAUGHT to be mean...those that weren't were just big lap babies.
> 
> Any breed of dog can be taught to be mean and aggressive, but the danger of some breeds (such as the PB) is in the sheer force/strength of their bite.
> 
> If your SIL has shown himself to be an irresponsible pet owner, I understand your concern, though.


Their first dog ran out into traffic.
Their second dog ran away.
They went seven years w/out a dog.
Daughter gets a puppy.
A week later dad shows up with his PB.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Justin,

I understand your concern. The breed has a bad reputation. I did Bully breed rescue for many years and I have seen the good the bad and the ugly. But I must say that it is EXTREMELY rare for a pit to go after their own family. More likely is that your SIL will have a few buddies over and someone will be drunk or obnoxious in some way and the pit will go after the buddy to Protect his family. 
What I can say is that if you tell them you hate the dog you will be the one that suffers as they well may say you can't see your grandkids any more. 
Talk to your daughter rationally and tell her you are concerned but offer her the advise that someone must be in charge in the house (alpha) and it can't be a dog. Not this dog or any dog. This pup NEEDS to be socialized, I needs obedience school even if the grand daughters are the ones who work with the dog in class so dad doesn't have to get off his lazy bum. See if your daughter will drive them. It will teach your grand daughters dog behavior and how to discipline correctly. The more the dog is socialized the less likely they are to have a problem. 
Puppies are not born aggressive they are raised to think they own the place and learn to be in charge. IF you approach them telling them the dog is a time bomb waiting to go off you will be shunned and that doesn't help anyone, least of all your grand kids. Think about this calmly and with as open of a mind as you can. You need to find a way to help them succeed rather then helping them fail. Your son in law is not going to all of a sudden be responsible so help your daughter to do it.
In 15 years of doing Bully rescue I have never had one try and bite me. I have had many Aussies try and fear bite and MANY cocker spaniels bite me. I even get called from the humane society when they have an Aggressive Pit. And the dog is fine once they are out. These dogs are not meant to be tied up or locked up for long periods of time. They need lots of exercise and discipline (not punishment). they need a job! Whether it is bringing in the paper or carrying a back pack to collect fire wood. They need to exercise their minds. Help your daughter be the responsible one.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

When we ran a kennel there were a few you couldn't seperate from their family, and most who were terrific pit bull types. I remember a petite (but perhaps correct) pit bull who was without a doubt the best dog we ever boarded bar none. Belonged to our insurance broker at that!


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

BTDT when Step son got a pit and had a baby boy,FREAKED ME OUT!

I was WRONG,she was a sweet dog who LOVED having grandson crawling all over her.

So I will say this,it probably is very likely not going to be a problem.

Agree with Ross too,one of the sweetest dogs Ive ever met was Lola at the dog park,all pit and so loving to all there,human and animal alike it was unreal.Vrs the one we met with the gangbanger who turned his into a Lethal Weapon and threatened people with it.


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

There's really not a lot you can do. I had a similar situation but it was Boxers and I was the one who had one and my parents who freaked out. I basically told them "I'm sorry if you're unhappy with my decision, but it's MY dog and MY family, and since I've been on my own (married) for the last 15 years, you have no say in what I do." My mom knew a boxer when we were young that had NO training what so ever and was basically crazy. My dad's neighbor had a boxer, when my dad was a child, that he (the neighbor) thought it was funny to have him attack other dogs until another dog killed him. (the boxer)

I assured them that he would be trained and not to worry. (I'm sure they did anyway). They got to know Spartacus (our boxer) and grew to love him. When my female had puppies we kept one of the males. (Rocky). After my parents dog died of old age, they decided to get a Lab. I thought they were crazy. The LAST thing my parents needed was a large frisky puppy. I told them so. They told me. "This is OUR house, and we will get any kind of dog we want!" (Hmmm, sound familiar?) Six months later this HUGE puppy was way more than they could handle. (think the movie Marley and Me) As my dad was walking him he saw a deer (or something) and pulled my dad off his feet. Fortunately he wasn't hurt badly, but it could have been a lot worse. I told him then, that I would take the Lab (gag, choke, I really dislike labs) and they could have Rocky on a trial basis.(he was now 2 y/o) That if they didn't like Rocky, they could send him back to me. In the meantime, I would look for a suitable home for Max (the lab) Fortunately their neighbor's son was looking for a lab for his 2 boys to play with. They are a great family and loved Max to death. In the meantime, they had Rocky for a week and that was it. I was NEVER getting him back, that he was the BEST dog they have ever owned! That was 10 years ago. Rocky is now 12 and they are Boxer converts!

I know the situation is different, but your DD and SIL are adults and will make their own decisions. As the mother of adult children, I would LOVE to be able to tell them what to do to save them from heartache and suffering and just plain stupidness, but they have to make their own mistakes.

Try not to worry. As someone once said "Worrying is like trying to solve a math equasion by chewing bubble gum. It just doesn't work."


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

More and more fine advice. Thank you all again.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Sometimes I just shake my head. This dog spent 7 happy years with the family. The other family dog chased a bunny that got out of a cage. Pitbull went crazy, got loose, and killed the other dog. The boy tried to stop it, and got attacked. Then a friend and grandma tried to stop it, and got attacked. But the boy grabbed his trusty rusty 20 gauge and ended the fight. Grandma got her calf muscle ripped off for her efforts. 

http://www.wmtw.com/r/28537181/detail.html

Sometimes there is a product recall because only a few of the thousands of products are made wrong and can cause damage. Many people learn to avoid that particular brand of product altogether.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

There is no such thing as a 120 pound pit bull, if its that large then dog is a mix. A 40-60 lb breed just doesn't double or triple in size with out adding another breed to the mix.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> Boy shoots dog to end rampage that injures 3
> A grandmother's calf is partially torn off during attacks that started when a pit bull killed a small dog.
> 
> By CRAIG CROSBY Kennebec Journal
> ...


Imagine that, the dog had a history of aggression that was basically not dealt with till something like this happened. So here we go, we have a MIX breed with a history of aggression being called a pit bull and as usual the media has represented the whole story so well.

I am guessing dads a real stand up guy, great dog handler. I wonder if this is when he was training the kid to shoot the dog in case it got out of the bedroom. 










Here is the dog which may have pit in it but its not a purebred. Looks like it maybe a bandog of some sort or American bulldog. 










Go to his face book account for even more wholesome family pictures. Nothing is cuter when your wife and kids are giving the camera the middle finger.


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## kaitala (Mar 24, 2011)

Justin Thyme said:


> These are people who don't even take care of their cars. Their five year old Escalade (don't ask) "fell apart". Their Honda isn't running and the new HHR needs about a thousand dollars worth of engine work.
> 
> SIL hasn't had a job in years and his idea of making money is buying used things and hoping he can sell them for more than he paid. (Hasn't happened yet.) Currently he wants to get a job as an "armed guard" because he now owns a gun in addition to the PB pup. If he does it will be a first. That is all part of my concern.


Why is a man who is unemployed, with vehicles that need repair but not fixed yet, getting new animals anyway? That's where my concern would be rooted. Pit bull or Mastiff or teacup poodle, they all have to eat, see the vet, flea meds, training, spaying etc. and it's never cheap. Not to even mention the implications of other bad financial and family care decisions to come.



Pops2 said:


> ...where that coincides is that pit bulldogs generally don't exhibit warning signs in the box, in fact they generally show signs of happiness like tailwagging prior to & during a match.


One of the trainers I worked with always said "Don't pay attention to the end without the teeth." meaning a wagging tail isn't your end of concern. Wagging isn't "happiness" per se, it can just be excitement. Not necessarily happy excitement, either. And how high or low the tail is held during the wag can indicate submissiveness/dominance, vigorousness of the wag indicative of intensity of excitement, etc. Note I said *can*. There are always exceptions to the rules when dealing with sentient, salient creatures.


Anyway, it seems like the dog is there to stay, for now. If they won't take training classes, there are bazillions of videos available. Cesar Millan, while a pop icon and a little overexposed, does a great job of explaining basics of pack dynamics. Netflix even has a great selection of training videos, maybe you can suggest renting them either from a mail service or the local store. 

I don't know how often you get to see them, but exposing them to something like dog agility would be a good way to get the humans jazzed up about training both of them, and then give them an activity to keep the minds and bodies of the dogs in shape, and I bet the kids would love doing it. You could even help them to build the obstacles, etc. making it a great intergenerational project. That would also keep you in the loop, seeing the progress, and being able to help out much more effectively, having already laid a positive foundation by working WITH them, not against.

Best of luck with it, hope it all goes well and we see the grandkids and granddogs on the next doggie all stars!


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

JasoninMN said:


> Imagine that, the dog had a history of aggression that was basically not dealt with till something like this happened. So here we go, we have a MIX breed with a history of aggression being called a pit bull and as usual the media has represented the whole story so well.
> 
> I am guessing dads a real stand up guy, great dog handler. I wonder if this is when he was training the kid to shoot the dog in case it got out of the bedroom.
> 
> ...


you are quite right...that is NOT a pit bull. It's a bull breed mix of some sort. Looks Bandog to me as well, and those ARE bred for human aggression. Well treated dogs don't just snap and attack their family members. It does not happen. Abused or neglected dogs (of any breed) might but not loved family pets.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

JasoninMN said:


> There is no such thing as a 120 pound pit bull, if its that large then dog is a mix. A 40-60 lb breed just doesn't double or triple in size with out adding another breed to the mix.


Guess again. People breed dogs larger and smaller. I have some Decker Giant rat terriers, they are double the beginning rat terror size. Labs have grown over the years from 65 lb to big ones. The Oorang Airedale strain is huge. 

And here is a purebred monster 150 lb plus pitbull for your pleasure. He mentions many others over 120 lb.

http://www.biggeminikennels.com/males.php

That worn out excuse of no such thing as a xxx pitbull is seen often, but it isn't true. It's a way to dismiss another story.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Ed Norman said:


> And here is a purebred monster 150 lb plus pitbull for your pleasure. He mentions many others over 120 lb.
> 
> http://www.biggeminikennels.com/males.php
> 
> .


My God, those are enormous. If a typical 60 pound pit can do damage, what would THOSE things do?!


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

http://www.biggeminikennels.com/males.php

Hideously mutant looking


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## HTG_zoo (Apr 18, 2011)

Hard to think of that thing, as the same breed as my little girl I can carry in my arms... a lot of folks don't, but that's an issue for lovers of the breed.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

HTG_zoo said:


> Hard to think of that thing, as the same breed as my little girl I can carry in my arms... a lot of folks don't, but that's an issue for lovers of the breed.


Siamese cats have also been distorted beyond belief.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I hate to bring this thread back to life,but I see a few things I'd like to comment on...

Getting more of the story sounds like SIL is pretty irresponsible,as for dog an irresponsible owner with ANY large dog,not a good combo,I think thats really your issue.

But I havent a clue what you can possibly DO about it.

Lets hope it turns out OK,but I see why you are concerned.As I said i also had HUGE PB fear until I actually dealt with some,hopefully this girl is from calm genes and SIL isnt looking for a weapon,but if he is and it looks like he is,any big dog is dangerous for sure,pit or not.

SIL is the problem here IMO.NOT the dog.

Now for that dog that attacked,take a look at the family!!! Clearly the Father is a weapons nut and that dog sure wasnt a pet but just another weapon to prove his manhood and intimidate/threaten others. Clearly he knows the dog is aggressive and LIKES it that way,and APPROVED of it being that way....it didnt JUST HAPPEN,it was planned!

ANOTHER example of IDIOTS that have no business with ANY large dog,he would have had same 'problem' with ANY other large breed dog being used as a weapon!!!! They should have shot HIM,along with the weaponized dog!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I agree MBB. I cannot understand why you would have/keep a dog that has to be locked in the bedroom...away from the FAMILY. I understand having one that should be kept seperated from guests, but your OWN family?!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

so, if you have guns then you want a mean dog???
that would mean that if you have a rafle and a GSD you would want it to bite someone?

Edited to ad either he knew that the dog *was *mean or he was being preventive (like with a buck,ram or bull)


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

beccachow said:


> I agree MBB. I cannot understand why you would have/keep a dog that has to be locked in the bedroom...away from the FAMILY. I understand having one that should be kept seperated from guests, but your OWN family?!


Did I miss something???

ok, I see what you mean now.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

mightybooboo said:


> Getting more of the story sounds like SIL is pretty irresponsible,as for dog an irresponsible owner with ANY large dog,not a good combo,I think thats really your issue.
> 
> But I havent a clue what you can possibly DO about it.
> 
> ...


I know. I have to work around it. Just seeking ways....


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I think the best way would be to offer puppy training classes. then if the puppy isn't a good tempered one you would have someone *other then you* telling them that. and if it is good tempered then they will have a trained pup.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

tailwagging said:


> so, if you have guns then you want a mean dog???
> that would mean that if you have a rafle and a GSD you would want it to bite someone?
> 
> Edited to ad either he knew that the dog *was *mean or he was being preventive (like with a buck,ram or bull)


No,Im saying THIS guy is a JERK with weapons,the dog is just one more.

That opposed to responsible folks with guns who arent ANTISOCIAL flipping off the camera and their dog is a pet and protector,not another purposefully AGGRESSIVE weapon to THREATEN others..

What happened was no surprise at all.

THAT guy is an IDIOT,period.

I have a GSD and a gun,Im not flipping the World off and using my dog as another LOADED AK that needs to be locked away when Im not at home (Hows that for socialization,like extremely poor????).Mine PROTECTS the family,isnt a threat to it,and we ALL can see the difference,you,me *and* The JERK.

Prevention isnt putting a loaded weapon with a dogs brain in your home.AFAIC HE should be facing some sort of endangerment charges.He both KNEW and ADMITTED the dog was a threat TO HIS OWN FAMILY no less.Why else did he have to lock it up when he wasnt present????????


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

or he was afraid that the dog would accidentally be let out by the kids and go running off to get in trouble. unless we know the family we can't say that we know.
sorry I didn't see the pic of him flipping anyone off.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

JasoninMN said:


> Go to his face book account for even more wholesome family pictures. Nothing is cuter when your wife and kids are giving the camera the middle finger.


Must have missed that,Ive heard enough to draw some conclusions.Notice how he uses the word RESPECT HIM so commonly,guy has ISSUES! You better RESPECT him,got it!! Or face the consequences.
-------------------
*But Bailie knew not to trust Excalibur*, an American pit bull. He said he had told his family to leave the dog in his bedroom when he was not at home, with food and water and the air conditioning running.

"He respects *me* because I've been the owner for seven years," Bailie said of the dog.

Excalibur had been out of the bedroom when Bailie arrived home from work for the past three days. "*They should have respected what I asked them to do*," Bailie said. (BooBoo---> Clearly not HIS fault,the familes FAULT,puhleeze!!!!)

He said the dog *was not  typically* aggressive toward people.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

mightybooboo said:


> No,Im saying THIS guy is a JERK with weapons,the dog is just one more.
> 
> THAT guy is an IDIOT,period.
> 
> Prevention isnt putting a loaded weapon with a dogs brain in your home.AFAIC HE should be facing some sort of endangerment charges.He both KNEW and ADMITTED the dog was a threat TO HIS OWN FAMILY no less.Why else did he have to lock it up when he wasnt present????????


You sort of overlooked* that when he came home after a three day absence he noted that he (paraquote) "had told them to keep the dog in the bedroom and they had let it out." Sort of it wasn't really his fault at all, the folks he lives with simply can't follow directions. So apparently he had expected the dog to remain locked in a bedroom for three days. Calling the guy an idiot is an honorific in this case.

(* okay, not ALL of you overlooked that gem but I was typing this when the immediately previous post went up.....)

and most guys I know who own labs love to take them to the job site.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> Must have missed that,Ive heard enough to draw some conclusions.
> -------------------
> *But Bailie knew not to trust Excalibur*, an American pit bull. He said he had told his family to leave the dog in his bedroom when he was not at home, with food and water and the air conditioning running.
> 
> ...



didn't go to FB.

yup I read that. and it also could be that the dog didn't like other dogs, like the chihuahua or the cat next door or the family's rabbit.
see *the media can/will/do twist a lot of what someone says. they will leave out words and even sentences and quote them out of order..
*
edited to add 
I guess I don't know much about face book. since I can't find a pic. I did see some on my space and they were giving the peace sign not the finger.

edited again.. to make my words huge too lol naaaa I'll just put them in bold


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Justin Thyme said:


> You sort of overlooked* that when he came home after a three day absence he noted that he (paraquote) "had told them to keep the dog in the bedroom and they had let it out." Sort of it wasn't really his fault at all, the folks he lives with simply can't follow directions. So apparently he had expected the dog to remain locked in a bedroom for three days. Calling the guy an idiot is an honorific in this case.
> 
> (* okay, not ALL of you overlooked that gem but I was typing this when the immediately previous post went up.....)
> 
> and most guys I know who own labs love to take them to the job site.


he didn't leave the dog for 3 days. he worked and came home.
"But Excalibur had been out of the bedroom when Bailie arrived home from work the last three days."
http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/boy-with-shotgun-ends-pit-bulls-rampage_2011-07-13.html


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

tailwagging said:


> he didn't leave the dog for 3 days. he worked and came home.
> "But Excalibur had been out of the bedroom when Bailie arrived home from work the last three days."
> http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/boy-with-shotgun-ends-pit-bulls-rampage_2011-07-13.html


I stand corrected. His dog couldn't be taken to a work site. Shouldn't have been let out of a room. Weighed over 120 pounds. Maybe it was driven to kill by being part of the epidemic of obesity our country is suffering from.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Ed Norman said:


> Guess again. People breed dogs larger and smaller. I have some Decker Giant rat terriers, they are double the beginning rat terror size. Labs have grown over the years from 65 lb to big ones. The Oorang Airedale strain is huge.


 nice try Ed, but milton decker's foundation gyp was a herderXterrier. also standard or larger sized basenji were bred into the lines to reincrease size as the terrier genes brought it down. labs originate from the lesser st johns water dog which was in the 80-100# range and field labs have always been in the 60-80# range bringing them back up to 100# is not a huge stretch. Oorang dales weren't actually that much bigger than standard only about 10-20# over the standard of 40-60# and still much smaller than the 120# otterhounds used to found the breed.



Ed Norman said:


> And here is a purebred monster 150 lb plus pitbull for your pleasure. He mentions many others over 120 lb.
> 
> http://www.biggeminikennels.com/males.php.


 read the site his dogs are Gotti bloodline which the original breeder later admited to outcrossing to johnson american bulldog (a line that had st bernard added for more size) and neapolitan mastiff (which was already known because of size, look & color and the neo breeder admitting to selling him the neo gyp). i'll repeat what Jason said, you *CANNOT DOUBLE* the size of a breed w/o crossbreeding. heck you can't shrink them either, mini aussie sheperds were outed as shetland crosses & toy aussies are mostly papillion crosses (some use other toy breeds.



Ed Norman said:


> That worn out excuse of no such thing as a xxx pitbull is seen often, but it isn't true. It's a way to dismiss another story.


 again Ed if pit bull s come in 120#, why did the weight classes end at 60#?


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I certainly hope that a dog would respect it's owner.
I wouldn't trust any animal in all situations. example I wouldn't trust my son's whippet with chickens or my newffie with my plate of food.


typical -&#8212;Synonyms - normal, average, stock, usual. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/typically
= the dog was not normally aggressive toward people.

I am sorry I am not trying to be a pain in the *** I just hate to see the twist the media can do (not saying I feel that is being done in this story but you never know, and when you don't know you can't assume)


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Y'all are clogging up my thread here.....

(That wasn't you TW. Too many posts, fast and furious. Where have I heard_ that_ before?)


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Ed Norman said:


> Guess again. People breed dogs larger and smaller. I have some Decker Giant rat terriers, they are double the beginning rat terror size. Labs have grown over the years from 65 lb to big ones. The Oorang Airedale strain is huge.
> 
> And here is a purebred monster 150 lb plus pitbull for your pleasure. He mentions many others over 120 lb.
> 
> ...


Ed those dogs have had mastiff bred into them to increase their size. I can tell you exactly who and when these crosses took places. Just because someones SAYS its purebred doesn't mean it really is.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

JasoninMN said:


> Ed those dogs have had mastiff bred into them to increase their size. I can tell you exactly who and when these crosses took places. Just because someones SAYS its purebred doesn't mean it really is.


the scary part is the breed of mastiff used (neapolitan) was developed specifically for manwork.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Pops2 said:


> i'll repeat what Jason said, you *CANNOT DOUBLE* the size of a breed w/o crossbreeding. heck you can't shrink them either, mini aussie sheperds were outed as shetland crosses & toy aussies are mostly papillion crosses (some use other toy breeds.


All dogs come from wolves. That negates your size argument. That teacup poodle was taking down caribou a few generations back. 

Look at the mini horses and draft horses. All came from Hyracotherium supposedly, they aren't breeding them with goats and rhinos to get different sizes. Of course you can selectively breed for size, up or down. 

I understand your argument. This dog doesn't fit the parameters of a dog fighting weight class system so it is not a pit bull so pit bulls are not dangerous. 

I still look at them as a flawed product that can cause damage. Any gun can hurt you, but the old Lee Navy rifle could be assembled wrong and the bolt would come through your head. It fell out of favor. The Ford Pinto could get bumped in the rear and engulf you in flames. The de Havilland Comet sometimes landed safely, but usually not. Smart people learned to avoid those products.

As for the pictures of the family with their gestures and actions and general style, isn't it amazing how stereotypes are so often fitting?


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Ed Norman said:


> A
> As for the pictures of the family with their gestures and actions and general style, isn't it amazing how stereotypes are so often fitting?


 can someone please post a link to these pic?? I can't find them (not being sarcastic, just can't find them)


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

:hijacked:


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Ed Norman said:


> All dogs come from wolves. That negates your size argument. That teacup poodle was taking down caribou a few generations back.


 there is some disagreement on that. there are scientists that still believe they are seperate species that come from a common ancestor. there is strong evidence of this in that feral dogs never breed back to a wolf which would be the theoretical ideal canine predator. instead natural selection produces just a generic dog like dingos & dholes & pariahs. the teacup poodle never took down caribou. and it takes MANY generations in a closed gene pool to induce a significant change. even then there are limitations, which is why there is no such thing as a 120# pit bulldog. 



Ed Norman said:


> Look at the mini horses and draft horses. All came from Hyracotherium supposedly, they aren't breeding them with goats and rhinos to get different sizes. Of course you can selectively breed for size, up or down.


 no not crossing to goats & rhinos. but every horseman out there will tell you that within a closed gene pool it'll take hundreds of generations to take shetlands to the size of belgians. however if you're okay w/ outcrossing, you can double the size of shetlands overnight by crossing to a belgian. but then they'd no longer BE shetlands, they'd be the horse equivalent of a mutt.



Ed Norman said:


> I understand your argument. This dog doesn't fit the parameters of a dog fighting weight class system so it is not a pit bull so pit bulls are not dangerous.


 not saying they can't be dangerous, just the chances of them being dangerous to people is more hype than happening. no the weight classes were drawn up BASED on the dogs, so a dog outside those parameters ISN"T that kind of dog, period. you are just unwilling to grasp this concept.



Ed Norman said:


> I still look at them as a flawed product that can cause damage. Any gun can hurt you, but the old Lee Navy rifle could be assembled wrong and the bolt would come through your head. It fell out of favor. The Ford Pinto could get bumped in the rear and engulf you in flames. The de Havilland Comet sometimes landed safely, but usually not. Smart people learned to avoid those products.


there are two ways to look at your analogy (except for the de havilland as i'm not a flier and don't know them):
1. the hazards of the Lee & the Pinto are the DIRECT RESULT of human misconduct/error.
2. far more people used the Lee rifles & the Pintos without any harm than were harmed by them.
both are equally true of real pit bulldogs (not counting the crossbred junk w/ faked papers).


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> :hijacked:


sorry
it happens a lot on this subject :ashamed:


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> sorry
> it happens a lot on this subject :ashamed:


Oh well.... I'm new. I'll get over it.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Regardless of the breed, all dogs should be evaluated before left to run amok with kids. 

There is an instinct in many dogs that can trigger an attack to happen in a blink of an eye. Some dogs will switch into attack mode in a split second when exposed to a screaming rabbit or a dog that screams when it gets it's foot stuck, etc. A pack of dogs that have lived peacefully together for years can get sent into a pack attack and kill another dog they live with if it screams or becomes injured = "pack attack." A child that screams and runs can trigger it just as easily, even with a single dog present.

Someone I knew had a dog scream under their camper in the back yard while her dogs were out playing, the entire pack launched onto the injured dog and tore it apart; these dog grew up together and got along great until they were triggered. (NOT Pits)

I don't own a Pit but I own dogs that will get sent into an attack if I pick up my rabbit and it screams. I also own dogs that will just stand there and look at the rabbit. In fact, the previous article that was posted mentioned something about the dog attacking after another dog took off after a rabbit, this may have triggered the attack when that prey drive kicked in.

I don't care if it's a Pit or a Poodle, any dog can do this. The only difference is that a Pit has a powerful jaw and generations of tenacity bred into it - this cannot be overlooked. .

When dealing with kids and dogs you have to guage the behaviour of the kid along with the drive in the dog. A Caucasian Ovtcharka or a Saint Bernard could do a heck of a lot more damage than a Pit if it wanted, but this breed isn't stereotyped by the media...

Kids naturally behave in a way that goes against k9 behaviour, screaming, running, falling down, jumping on dogs in a dominant manner, putting their face right up in a dog's face. This is where the problem lies.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Luckily the kids I'm dealing with are more mature. BUT. They are still the type who may put their face right in the dogs because they see it as 'affectionate.'

And yes, every dog has that prey drive and chase instinct. That's just "dog," isn't it.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> All dogs come from wolves. That negates your size argument. That teacup poodle was taking down caribou a few generations back.


No it doesn't, it shows your not well versed in breeding animals and line breeding. I want to see you create a standard poodle out of a toy poodle in a few generations because its impossible. Breeds have fixed traits because they have all been selectively bred for desired characteristics. A tea cup poodle doesn't have the genetics to become a standard because it doesn't have the genes to breed up in size unless you cross it to a larger dog. You could spend you whole life breeding the largest toy poodle to the next largest toy poodle and hardly make any uphill movement in size. You maybe increase size a tad 5-10 lbs but eventually your going to have to make an out cross to another toy poodle and you just lost what you gained in size or you could cross out to another breed that will increase the size and be headed some where. You can't breed something back into a breed if the genes aren't there. Results are achieved a lot faster with out crosses to other breeds and that is why other breeds were added to create the Decker terrier. Wolves really hardly play into this argument at all because you could take all the dogs you wanted to and never be able to create a wolf no matter how you crossed them because some of the wolves traits have been lost during domestication. That is selective breeding for you, its eliminated the undesirable characteristics. And another fact its a lot easier to breed down in size then it is to breed up hence the reason the majority of breeds are smaller then wolves in size.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Justin Thyme said:


> And yes, every dog has that prey drive and chase instinct. That's just "dog," isn't it.


Well, like I said. I have owned Dobes with low drive that would sit there and look at me if the rabbit I held went into a screaming fit. I have also owned one with off the charts drive that would take off through my electric fence that was set on high shocking him over and over and over, and never flinch, if he was after deer.

There is drive, then there is DRIVE.

Tenacity is the other factor to consider...

If my Dobe latched onto a deer, he would call off with a verbal command. A dog with tenacity may not let go at all.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Justin Thyme said:


> Luckily the kids I'm dealing with are more mature. BUT. They are still the type who may put their face right in the dogs because they see it as 'affectionate.'
> 
> And yes, every dog has that prey drive and chase instinct. That's just "dog," isn't it.


maybe one of them would like to take the puppy to training class.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

JasoninMN said:


> No it doesn't, it shows your not well versed in breeding animals and line breeding. I want to see you create a standard poodle out of a toy poodle in a few generations because its impossible. Breeds have fixed traits because they have all been selectively bred for desired characteristics. A tea cup poodle doesn't have the genetics to become a standard because it doesn't have the genes to breed up in size unless you cross it to a larger dog. You could spend you whole life breeding the largest toy poodle to the next largest toy poodle and hardly make any uphill movement in size. You maybe increase size a tad 5-10 lbs but eventually your going to have to make an out cross to another toy poodle and you just lost what you gained in size or you could cross out to another breed that will increase the size and be headed some where. You can't breed something back into a breed if the genes aren't there. Results are achieved a lot faster with out crosses to other breeds and that is why other breeds were added to create the Decker terrier. Wolves really hardly play into this argument at all because you could take all the dogs you wanted to and never be able to create a wolf no matter how you crossed them because some of the wolves traits have been lost during domestication. That is selective breeding for you, its eliminated the undesirable characteristics. And another fact its a lot easier to breed down in size then it is to breed up hence the reason the majority of breeds are smaller then wolves in size.


Hate to say this but a poodle is a poodle. they are the same breed just classed differently by hight. A toy can produce a stranded.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/

there is only 5 inch difference in a toy and stranded poodle.

but we understand what you meant.
as a chihuahua breeder I have seen (not that i have bred) 12 lbs purebred chihuahuas and if I bred ones that big to others that big I MAY get bigger ones but it would take a good while.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

tailwagging said:


> maybe one of them would like to take the puppy to training class.


I can only hope. AND suggest.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

That's what I would do. Give them a gift slip or something, go pay for the classes so feel like they HAVE to use them, and call it YOUR gift for the puppy. You don't have to bring anything else into it. Just a nice gift for their new pup.


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## HTG_zoo (Apr 18, 2011)

It makes a wonderful gift, if you can afford it.

At the least you could maybe teach them things to teach the dog? The more the dog does for them command wise, the better she will be in regards to pack position. The emergency down is a great thing....

But I have a feeling you may not have to worry about this pup too long. If they're running free they have a tendency to disappear.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

No one is going to change the OP's irrational fear and hatred of pit bull type dogs. He has made a point to spell out his opinions of pit bull type dogs in many threads besides this one. If his phobia wasn't so great I might be more inclined to think there was something to his concerns.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

The Ford Pinto could give years of service until one day when someone rear ended it, then it blew up. This pitbull gave years of service until one day the other dog chased a rabbit, and it blew up. It's a common story. 



Pops2 said:


> Oorang dales weren't actually that much bigger than standard only about 10-20# over the standard of 40-60# and still much smaller than the 120# otterhounds used to found the breed.


I'll take the word of the kennel owner and originator over yours.

"Oorangâs literature stated that âWhen full grown, your Airedale dog will weigh from forty to fifty-five pounds and if a female will weigh slightly less. This is the standard weight, but when required, we can furnish over-sized Airedales whose weight will be from sixty to one hundred pounds.â http://www.dogsincanada.com/the-story-of-oorang-kennel



JasoninMN said:


> No it doesn't, it shows your not well versed in breeding animals and line breeding.


Thank you for knowing everything about me.



> I want to see you create a standard poodle out of a toy poodle in a few generations because its impossible.


from tailwagging:


> Hate to say this but a poodle is a poodle. they are the same breed just classed differently by hight. A toy can produce a stranded.


whoops



> Wolves really hardly play into this argument at all because you could take all the dogs you wanted to and never be able to create a wolf no matter how you crossed them because some of the wolves traits have been lost during domestication.


We're talking about dog breeds, not inventing wolves. Since all the purebreeds come from crossbreeding, then the 150 pound pitbull can be considered a purebreed as soon as it's traits are standardized. It has pit blood, and other blood, same as every other breed which is a mix.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

tailwagging said:


> Hate to say this but a poodle is a poodle. they are the same breed just classed differently by hight. A toy can produce a stranded.
> http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/
> 
> there is only 5 inch difference in a toy and stranded poodle.
> ...


first 5 inches in dogs is like 18 inches of height in people, so it is a huge deal.
second the toy poodle (and possibly the mini) was in fact created by crossing terriers into the breed to bring down size, which is also why toys are more aggressive & intense than standards & minis.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

ahh but ED the dog named The Rock looks like a Neapolitan mix

http://www.biggeminikennels.com/photos.php


http://www.akc.org/breeds/neapolitan_mastiff/


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Pops2 said:


> first 5 inches in dogs is like 18 inches of height in people, so it is a huge deal.
> second the toy poodle (and possibly the mini) was in fact created by crossing terriers into the breed to bring down size, which is also why toys are more aggressive & intense than standards & minis.



it does happen and quite often. they go by height not by weight.

may I ask where you get all this breed history from?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Ed Norman said:


> The Ford Pinto could give years of service until one day when someone rear ended it, then it blew up. This pitbull gave years of service until one day the other dog chased a rabbit, and it blew up. It's a common story.


not as common as the histerics would have you believe for a variety of reasons including willful misidentification.




Ed Norman said:


> I'll take the word of the kennel owner and originator over yours.
> "Oorangâs literature stated that âWhen full grown, your Airedale dog will weigh from forty to fifty-five pounds and if a female will weigh slightly less. This is the standard weight, but when required, we can furnish over-sized Airedales whose weight will be from sixty to one hundred pounds.â http://www.dogsincanada.com/the-story-of-oorang-kennel.


i'll take the word of guys that hunted the dogs and told me the so called 100# oorangs weren't any bigger than a big 70# coonhound and that almost all of them they ever saw were under 70#. 





Ed Norman said:


> Thank you for knowing everything about me.
> from tailwagging:
> whoops.


as i pointed out to TW, toys were in fact created by crossing to terriers, so the genes now have a set limit in them that will prevent toys from producing standards w/o crossbreeding again.




Ed Norman said:


> We're talking about dog breeds, not inventing wolves. Since all the purebreeds come from crossbreeding, then the 150 pound pitbull can be considered a purebreed as soon as it's traits are standardized. It has pit blood, and other blood, same as every other breed which is a mix.


it can be considered a pure breed but it still isn't a pit bull no matter how much you want it to be. this is why a large segment of breeders of the line in your link have begun a breed association & have changed the name to american bully. they are tired of getting ripped by real pit bulldog supporters for hanging paper on a mutt.
thanks Ed. i understand you'll never get over your pitphobia. but you make it easy for people that are undecided to see how your position is rooted in false information, no information, media hype & irrational baseless fear.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

tailwagging said:


> it does happen and quite often. they go by height not by weight.
> 
> may I ask where you get all this breed history from?


it doesn't happen. two 9-10" dogs do not regularly or even occasionally produce 15-16" dogs. however it does happen that two 14.5" dogs produce an occasional 15-16" dog.
as for breed history, i just happen to be literate & like old books, which apparently is not the case w/ the AKC. i also like to listen to old men tell about their history. but i also am open to new discoveries as well. for example a recent study of mitochondrial DNA shows that the chihuahua is descended almost entirely of european terriers.
the german pudel IS a retriever/upland birddog. the french breed was used to herd waterfowl into nets. specifically into nets at the end of curving canals dug off the main body of the pond and having long thin strands of willow woven over them into a roof which kept the fowl from taking off. in fact many standard poodles pass herding instinct tests for this very reason.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

pops I hate to tell you but a toy can produce a standard. it is by height not weight. 

you can get a very tall spindly small standard poodle or a shorter legged thick heavy larger toy.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Justin Thyme said:


> How do you all suggest I approach this as I feel I surely must?
> 
> I welcome advice. Advise.


Honestly, I would help the dog get lost and taken to a shelter far, far away from their home. I understand how you feel about grandchildren. And NOTHING in the world would stop me from helping this dog loose its way back to their house. Take it for a walk one day, dogsit for them once, do whatever it takes, and ....... OOOPS! the dog just ran off. 

I know that seems unkind, but when it comes to the grandbabies, safety is paramount. I understand your concerns. I understand your emotions. It isn't just about the breed, it is about ANY dog that you are afraid will hurt them. If it came to it, I would take the beast to be euthanized when I was dog sitting, and the story would be... OOOPS! I don't know how it happened, but the leash broke and it ran away. I called it and called it, but ..... It's just gone. 

And I wouldn't even feel guilty about it. My grandbabies are more important than ANY dog or any boyfriend or husband of my child.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

tailwagging said:


> pops I hate to tell you but a toy can produce a standard. it is by height not weight.
> 
> you can get a very tall spindly small standard poodle or a shorter legged thick heavy larger toy.


name one that doesn't have standards or minis in the last ten generations. i understand it's by height not weight. i also understand that there is NOT that much variety in the genes for two 9-10" dogs to produce 15" dogs. it is the canine equivalent of two 5' people producing a 7' tall child. not 1 in 100 or even 1 in 1000 but 1 in 1 million. i grew up w/ my mom's toy poodles (and got several beatings for taking them squirrel hunting). i know what they produce. and for two 10" dogs to produce a 12" dog is VERY uncommon so to go another 4" is far far more difficult. even more so since the majority of breeders don't breed between the different height varieties.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Pops2 said:


> name one that doesn't have standards or minis in the last ten generations. i understand it's by height not weight. i also understand that there is NOT that much variety in the genes for two 9-10" dogs to produce 15" dogs. it is the canine equivalent of two 5' people producing a 7' tall child. not 1 in 100 or even 1 in 1000 but 1 in 1 million. i grew up w/ my mom's toy poodles (and got several beatings for taking them squirrel hunting). i know what they produce. and for two 10" dogs to produce a 12" dog is VERY uncommon so to go another 4" is far far more difficult. even more so since the majority of breeders don't breed between the different height varieties.


That the thing pops, they are the same breed. it is OK for the toy to have mini or standard in the background. so they can and often do produce what is back there, even if the sire and dam is small. in fact in other countries (FÃ©dÃ©ration Cynologique Internationale) they have a 4th size to play with, the Moyen also called Kleins.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

tailwagging said:


> That the thing pops, they are the same breed. it is OK for the toy to have mini or standard in the background. so they can and often do produce what is back there, even if the sire and dam is small. in fact in other countries they have a 4th size to play with, the Moyen.


not saying it isn't okay but VERY few breed outside their variety specifically because they then have dogs that are outside of their area of interest. and the ones that do are rarely going to breed to extremes. you won't see toyXstandard. what you will see are 7-8" toys bred to a really nice 10-11" mini and thus producing dogs in the 9-10" range w/ maybe a couple hitting 11". it's not an absolute but it is really close to a statistical impossibility for 10 or more generations of 9-10" dogs to produce even one 15" dog.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

it isn't that far fetched. many minis are off springs of standards and just as many toys are off springs of mini. all that it would have to be is two toys that had mini or stranded behind them to throw a standard. many will breed to another size if there is a chance of improving the breed.
I am sooo glad we don't have sizes in chihuahua! I have seen small throw large and large throw small. I would hate to have to wait until the dog was almost full grown to reg it the right size.

back to pits. I do think that the oversized ones are mixed. they look it.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Ok seriously the only reason I used poodles because that is what he used in his statement. 

Now how fast do you believe you could take a Chihuahua and breed them up to 40 pounds or more? Take a 6-9 inch dog and get it 24 inches or more tall with out out crossing to another breed. I think we both know its not likely to happen in either of our lifetimes.

I should add again, these dogs went from under 60 pounds to over 120 in a few generations. Sad thing is they used some of the more man aggressive breeds to get them up to that size.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

in the case of the gotti lines they admitted it. in the case of other lines many ahve been outed by the breeders they bought mastif breed gyps from.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

JasoninMN said:


> Ok seriously the only reason I used poodles because that is what he used in his statement.
> 
> Now how fast do you believe you could take a Chihuahua and breed them up to 40 pounds or more? Take a 6-9 inch dog and get it 24 inches or more tall with out out crossing to another breed. I think we both know its not likely to happen in either of our lifetimes.


if I breed non standard deer style to get height to whopper size coby blockie type to get weight and only used the biggest offspring. maybe 10 years. but see their are two diffident styles one tall and one coby in chihuahuas so it wouldn't real be fair.
it would be easier then most breeds.
plus it is always easier to breed up a toy size to a normal size. mother Nature and all


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Hey this thread only need a few more replies to make it into the top 5 most replied to threads on the Pet forum. 

Has about 80 more to go till it knocks out the last pit thread from its third place standing.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I hope Justin Thyme doesn't mind. his thread has a lot of good info in it.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

tailwagging said:


> if I breed non standard deer style to get height to whopper size coby blockie type to get weight and only used the biggest offspring. maybe 10 years. but see the are two diffident styles one tall and one coby in chihuahuas so it wouldn't real be fair.
> it would be easier then most breeds.
> plus it is always easier to breed up a toy size to a normal size. mother Nature and all


JMO
but i think it would take longer. the reason they crossbred shelties to make mini aussies is because doing it any other way would take to long to see a profit.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

but they were bringing the size down weren't they? 
Bantamizing always takes a good while. that takes work.

Mother Nature always want to normalize things, like size.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Wags said:


> No one is going to change the OP's irrational fear and hatred of pit bull type dogs. He has made a point to spell out his opinions of pit bull type dogs in many threads besides this one. If his phobia wasn't so great I might be more inclined to think there was something to his concerns.


*My irrational fear, huh? Thank you for that bit of unsolicited and unwarranteed (yeah, I do know how to spell) psychoanalyzation. Thank you Dr Fraud. *



mekasmom said:


> Honestly, I would help the dog get lost and taken to a shelter far, far away from their home. I understand how you feel about grandchildren. And NOTHING in the world would stop me from helping this dog loose its way back to their house. Take it for a walk one day, dogsit for them once, do whatever it takes, and ....... OOOPS! the dog just ran off.
> 
> I know that seems unkind, but when it comes to the grandbabies, safety is paramount. I understand your concerns. I understand your emotions. It isn't just about the breed, it is about ANY dog that you are afraid will hurt them.
> 
> And I wouldn't even feel guilty about it. My grandbabies are more important than ANY dog or any boyfriend or husband of my child.


*I live too far away to get away with this. The suggestion that wandering dogs get lost is really more on the mark. This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with the barking dog. But I totally agree with feelings. My granddaughters (and daughter) safety is far more important than any dog. I couldn't have it euthanized though. Maybe a Pit-rescue group would be a reasonable alternative. I hope they come to that on their own.*



tailwagging said:


> I hope Justin Thyme doesn't mind. his thread has a lot of good info in it.


*
LOTS of good information. Once again I reiterate, thank you all.*

Even the psychoanalyst I opened this post with, though not so much.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Dog breeding is a great topic so lets give that its own thread. I don't mind the thread drift but we have two threads twisted together here so I'm going to close this one. Feel free to start anew on one or the other topic.


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