# Lgd caught eating live ewe



## eljen (Jun 16, 2011)

May I start by saying I am looking for solutions. This is our first time around with LGDs and I know we have made some mistakes along the way. I have two female pyree/Anatolian crosses they are 2 and 1/2 years old. They were raised with goats and recently my husband put a small group of kidding ewes in the goat pasture. The sheep don't hang with the goats and they were never properly introduced to the dogs. We lost 3 lambs and thought the LGDs just weren't protecting the sheep- our predation is pretty heavy. Well, my husband caught one of our LGDs tonight eating the backside of an adult ewe to the bone while she was still alive. The other LGD was watching. Now we assume the LGDs killed the lambs over a span of 8 or so weeks. Where we stand now, can we try to bond the dogs to the sheep? Are the dogs salvageable? Would we have to get rid of both dogs- the one who killed and the one who watched? We have never had an incident with the goats but we cannot keep the dogs from escaping the goat pasture no matter how hard we try so keeping the goats and sheep separate is not a viable option.


----------



## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Are the dogs well fed? That's my first concern. It's doubtful they would go that for sport. It would seem to me that once they have done that they would need to be placed in a new home. But the 6 month old I'm sure isn't old enough to guard,


----------



## eljen (Jun 16, 2011)

Sorry for the confusion they are litter mates, both 2.5 years old. They are timid with the automatic feeder so it is possible the door was closed and they couldn't get to the food. That has happened before.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Doesn't matter if they were hungry or not, they shouldn't be eating the sheep. It is possible that something else brought down the ewe and the dog was taking advantage. But, being that she was still alive, he should not have done that. I'd rehome the dog that was feeding on the ewe.


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I have 2 brothers, same age as yours, one is hyper and has caused me grief killed a lamb directly after birth, and chewed the ears off 2 rams when they got into his food bowl. My other LGD (his brother) is perfect. He knows his job and does his job. 

His brother is still in the horrible teens. I am not giving up hope just yet. But he is not allowed near the sheep without my supervision. And I learned a hard lesson to not feed him with sheep in the pen because the sheep like their dog food and they knew the dogs would never hurt them. I guess ziggy my LGD just had enough. I dont trust him and he still acts like a child. His brother has never acted this way. Ziggy is only allowed to guard the fields alone which he is a great deterant. But it is a pain keeping him seperate from the others. I still have hope that he will mature, if not he will be the lone field guardian.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Myself personally, lead and gunpowder would be the only solution.. 

Once a dog has a taste for something, you're not going to change their minds...


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I took the dog that caused the problems away from the sheep. He knows he is being punished without saying a word. He sees his brother through the fence with the sheep. 
I go out often and allow him with the sheep and watch him closely, I plan on doing this also when its lambing season too. I want him with me so I can correct him with the lambs. Right now he is too playful and wants to chase and play. He's just not hit maturity yet. He has till he is 4, to show me he's worthy. 

I am willing to put in the work first before giving up. After all I paid good money for them at 8 weeks old but thats just me.


----------



## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Myself personally, lead and gunpowder would be the only solution..
> 
> Once a dog has a taste for something, you're not going to change their minds...



Thats been dis-proven numerous times on this board alone.


----------



## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Our 6.5 month old LGD was caught with a freshly killed chicken (broke my heart, and made me rethink the bird that went missing a few days earlier-- after NEVER having predation losses)....
Later I realized I switched dog foods last month and it is MUCH lower in fat and protein and dog was probably really hungry...
That and more supervision....(I am rooting for your dog and mine as well!)...


----------



## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Maura said:


> Doesn't matter if they were hungry or not, they shouldn't be eating the sheep. It is possible that something else brought down the ewe and the dog was taking advantage. But, being that she was still alive, he should not have done that. I'd rehome the dog that was feeding on the ewe.


If the owner is not responsible enough to keep them well fed and then puts them in with unfamiliar animals they are asking for trouble in my opinion.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

Shoot the one that killed the ewe. LGDs are supposed to PROTECT the ewes, and if they don't, they need a bullet. Killing a ewe is unacceptable. How can you trust her? I personally don't have any tolerance for livestock killing dogs. yes, you need to make sure they are well fed, but they still shouldn't kill the animals you own them to protect. If she was mine, she would of been shot as soon as I saw her eating the ewe, ni questions asked. Anyways, shoot her.


----------



## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Oh no I hope this does not dissolve into ... a Guns are the only right solution argument....

the OP is willing to work with the dog, it was mentioned above already....


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

I wasn't telling you to shoot your dog( even though that's what should happen to a livestock killer). I personally wouldn't waste my time with a dog that killed livestock. But I was replying to eljen.


----------



## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Very simple if the dog doesnt work out, call your local rescue. Give them a new home. Its not the dogs fault it was starved to the point of needing to eat.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

NamasteMama said:


> Very simple if the dog doesnt work out, call your local rescue. Give them a new home. Its not the dogs fault it was starved to the point of needing to eat.


Who would want an ex lgd? Really, they don't make good pet dogs. Yes there are a few that do, but for the most part they don't. Like I said, shoot it.


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Some ex-lgd's, especially younger ones, can make great pets. i let one go that it didn't work out with my herd a few years back and the family just loved her and couldn't thank me enough. and some lgd's don't make good lgd's at all, ever. 

when they gang up on the herd, it is a different matter and i would say the dogs need to go but when they attack alone imo, the dog can be salvaged and retrained. 

if there is a feed problem it should be corrected once and for all. they are your workers and feed and care are their compensation. but in this case there was also the introduction of a different livestock and no proper break in period so it was risking what happened. livestock have a smell the dogs become familiar with. he may have thought they were intruders. he knew they were not the goats. i would keep a sharp eye on him and reintroduce him gradually with supervision until he becomes familiar.let him learn the sheep are his just like the goats. good luck.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> Who would want an ex lgd? Really, they don't make good pet dogs. Yes there are a few that do, but for the most part they don't. Like I said, shoot it.


That isn't true. I know of many LGD's that are also good pets. I had one GP that was a chicken killer and horse chaser. I probably could have retrained him but already had two others who were terrific and didn't have the time or resources to work with him. He was rehomed to a family with no other animals but had children. It was a perfect situation and he was a great pet.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> deleted post was quoted here



Why should it be dead if you can find it a good home as a pet? 
Sounds like you like vengeance shooting.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> That isn't true. I know of many LGD's that are also good pets. I had one GP that was a chicken killer and horse chaser. I probably could have retrained him but already had two others who were terrific and didn't have the time or resources to work with him. He was rehomed to a family with no other animals but had children. It was a perfect situation and he was a great pet.


Yes, I said "a few make good pets" not all. I have a neighbor that had one that killed goats maul their 4 year old son. A big dog like that can severely injure a little kid. I have a cousin that bought one to protect their land( no livestock) that killed deer. They are working dogs. They are not pet dogs. Not all make good pets. Livestock killers need put down. If you have a problem with a bullet, take them to the vet. Get it euthanized.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

So do you think any dog that kills another animal is too dangerous to have around children?


ALL of my working Great Pyrs have been fantastic pets as well as LGD's.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Why should it be dead if you can find it a good home as a pet?
> Sounds like you like vengeance shooting.


because not all make good pets. and if they are livestock killers, even if the new owners don't have livestock, it is a liability. What if it runs away and kills SOMEONE elses livestock. You might not care if your livestock get killed by your LGDs, but other people will.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> So do you think any dog that kills another animal is too dangerous to have around children?


No, I think a dog that kills livestock is a liability and needs to be put down.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> No, I think a dog that kills livestock is a liability and needs to be put down.


Your (seemingly inexperienced) opinion. I think a dog deserves a shot at a new life unless he's shown aggressive to humans.


Easy enough to rehome a dog to a place with no neighbors with livestock. As I said, I've done it. Which is more than you can say.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> because not all make good pets. and if they are livestock killers, even if the new owners don't have livestock, it is a liability. What if it runs away and kills SOMEONE elses livestock. You might not care if your livestock get killed by your LGDs, but other people will.


And you have no idea if this dog in question will make a good pet or not. You just want her to shoot it. Without knowing anything else. Which is just silly and reactionary.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I've never met a dog that's tasted blood from a live animal or human to ever become trustable... I had to put one of my chows down. No matter how much I tired, once it started killing anything it could, (cats, birds, rabbits etc.. ) it started biting people. I'm lucky I didn't get sued..

Your mileage may vary, but in this stupid lawsuit crazy society, it's not worth the risk to pass a LGD off as a pet once it's started killing..


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> I've never met a dog that's tasted blood from a live animal or human to ever become trustable... I had to put one of my chows down. No matter how much I tired, once it started killing anything it could, (cats, birds, rabbits etc.. ) it started biting people. I'm lucky I didn't get sued..



:smack So if an LGD killed a coyote doing it's job, you would have to put him down, huh? What LGD's do you actually have experience with?


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> And you have no idea if this dog in question will make a good pet or not. You just want her to shoot it. Without knowing anything else. Which is just silly and reactionary.


No not silly, I just value my livestock more than a dog, unlike you. Livestock killers are livestock killers. Never lost a ewe to a dog, because if a dog acts like they are interested, they are dead. I have lost chickens, ducks and turkeys, all the dogs that killed them are dead. I would rather have live ( Valuable) ewes than dead ewes and a worthless livestock killing dog. Because I protect my prey animals from predators. All I know is that the dog KILLED a ewe. That's all I need to know.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> No not silly, I just value my livestock more than a dog, unlike you. Livestock killers are livestock killers. Never lost a ewe to a dog, because if a dog acts like they are interested, they are dead. I have lost chickens, ducks and turkeys, all the dogs that killed them are dead. I would rather have live ( Valuable) ewes than dead ewes and a worthless livestock killing dog. Because I protect my prey animals from predators. All I know is that the dog KILLED a ewe. That's all I need to know.


Do you have LGD's?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> quoted deleted post here


If you look back at my post carefully, you'll see I was responding to (and quoted) this:



simi-steading said:


> I've never met a dog that's tasted blood from a live animal or human to ever become trustable....


A coyote is a LIVE animal, no? Do you understand now?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> No not silly, I just value my livestock more than a dog, unlike you. Livestock killers are livestock killers. Never lost a ewe to a dog, because if a dog acts like they are interested, they are dead. I have lost chickens, ducks and turkeys, all the dogs that killed them are dead. I would rather have live ( Valuable) ewes than dead ewes and a worthless livestock killing dog. Because I protect my prey animals from predators. All I know is that the dog KILLED a ewe. That's all I need to know.


So if the dog pricks it's ears at a ewe, you just blast away like Yosemite Sam? Gotcha. Now I know what I'm dealing with. 

Carry on.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I don't have much for experience with a livestock dog, but I do with dogs in general, and I've put down a couple because they became very untrustable after that first taste... I had a lab that started with rabbits, then nipped a neighbor kid. 

The parents were forgiving, because their kid had come into my yard, but still.. I wasn't going to risk being sued the next time.. 

I was actually surprised, because I've not known labs to be that way, but I got the dog when it was about a year old... The neighbors had moved and abandoned it in their fenced yard.. I don't know what it's history was, but I knew what wasn't going to be in it's or my future..


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> I don't have much for experience with a livestock dog, but I do with dogs in general, and I've put down a couple because they became very untrustable after that first taste... I had a lab that started with rabbits, then nipped a neighbor kid.
> 
> ..


So what about the LGD that kills a yote doing it's job? Do you shoot it too? My daughter's Border Terrier killed a weasel. Do you think she needs shooting as well?


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

No, not unless one of my other animals is it's next victim... One chance... 

I didn't do anything about the dogs with the cats and rabbits, until a human was next... But I should have.. I got no clue who owned the cats they were killing.. I'm sure a couple were strays.


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

most of my dogs have killed a chicken before they learned the error of their ways and never did so again. my first catahoula, whom i found on a dirt road in the middle of nowhere when she was about 5 or 6 weeks, had killed three piglets (i used to raise wild pigs) before someone on this forum told me to shoot her with a .22 caliber bb pellet on the rump next time she chased them. i'd tried everything but this and this worked. she never hurt the piglets again. so it is possible to correct a wrong-doer. there is nothing inherently in the taste of blood that makes it addicting.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

No.. those cost money and aren't reusable.. I use a wooden stake and silver hammer.. 

Seriously... I'm not going to keep a wonder in the back of my mind, and always feel the need to keep any eye and a lawyer in my back pocket.. A dog gets once chance... A dog is either your best friend, or he's untrustable.. I've had both.... The ones that were good dogs I miss dearly, the ones I couldn't trust I don't miss at all... 

I got a saying I pretty much live by.. got a problem.. get rid of it...


----------



## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

baileysclublamb said:


> We had a chicken killing dog once. He happened to be an AKC champion show dog. He met a bullet. It was the responsible thing to do.


Apparently, killing dogs left and right, you have a lot more money to throw away than most people!


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> So if the dog pricks it's ears at a ewe, you just blast away like Yosemite Sam? Gotcha. Now I know what I'm dealing with.
> 
> Carry on.


No, I take the dog ON A LEASH into the sheep pen. If it freaks out and gets excited, snaps at them, its gone. Maybe you don't need livestock if you think every livestock killer needs to live. Dogs are ( for the most part) free, My sheep are not. When I pay thousands for my rams, I value my sheep more than a dog.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> A dog gets once chance... A dog is either your best friend, or he's untrustable..



You clearly don't understand the idea of a working dog versus a pet. Not every dog has to be your best friend to be an incredible working dog. And he can be entirely trustworthy.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> No, I take the dog ON A LEASH into the sheep pen. If it freaks out and gets excited, snaps at them, its gone. Maybe you don't need livestock if you think every livestock killer needs to live. Dogs are ( for the most part) free, My sheep are not. When I pay thousands for my rams, I value my sheep more than a dog.


So if a dog is eating and growls at a sheep.....BLAM!!? 

What kind of LGD's do you use? Pyrs, Maremma's...what?

How old are you? Just curious...


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Granted.. they don't have to be a friend.. but they have to be trustable.. 

So you're telling me of you caught one of your dogs eating your animals while alive, you'd be able to retrain it and trust it from then on? Or are you always going to have to keep going and checking on it?

Is it worth the risk of losing a second animal, or third before you feel comfortable trusting it to not do it any more as you retrain it?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> Granted.. they don't have to be a friend.. but they have to be trustable..
> 
> So you're telling me of you caught one of your dogs eating your animals while alive, you'd be able to retrain it and trust it from then on? Or are you always going to have to keep going and checking on it?
> 
> Is it worth the risk of losing a second animal, or third before you feel comfortable trusting it to not do it any more as you retrain it?


nope. Like I already said, if it was good with people I'd rehome it. Which is what I did and it worked out quite well. Dog never killed another animal and was wonderful with children.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

pretty sure my age doesn't matter. You are the one that is being unreasonable. My passion is LIVESTOCK. I spend thousands of dollars on my sheep and goats every year. I show all over the Pacific Northwest. I will not risk my valuable sheep for a dog. Simple as that. Just depends on your priorities. Livestock or dogs. Mine is livestock, yours is dogs.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

That is where i wouldn't feel safe. Even if i thought the dog was good with people and let the new owner know why i was rehoming it. I could never feel right wondering if it would bite someone... and if i ever found out it did then I would really feel sick about it.


----------



## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

I imagine free dogs aren't really well bred or trained. Rather than getting those and treating them as disposable, buying a quality LDG would likely bring better results.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

yes, I agree that LGDs are not free. I didn't mean LGDs, I just meant other dogs. But even if I buy an expensive LGD, I wouldn't keep it if it killed any livestock.


----------



## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Here's the thing people, LGD's are a different type of dog, they are not your average canine. 
They need proper training, and introduction to new livestock. Simple as that.
Alot of people get them thinking how wonderful, I can just turn out this 150 pound dog with my Sheep, Goats, Cattle, Whatever, and all will be well. NO!!!!
They are killers, plain and simple.
They will give their life for any animal, or person that they perceive as belonging to them, but will kill anything new and different. Especially if they are young, as the OP's are, and have not been allowed to take ownership of the thing you are wanting them to guard.
I feed my two Pyrs raw, have since they were 10 weeks old. They get blood from a wide range of animals, as they eat raw meat and offal nightly. They know the difference between "dinner" and "pack". 
You do not eat the "Pack".
They have killed coyotes, racoons, rabbits(wild not pet), and gotten into a serious scrap with a bobcat, and won that one too.
They do not go after the cattle, the cats, chickens, or any people who are introduced to them.
LGD's are one dog that you must spend the time and work with, they are not trustworthy alone until they are at least two or three, especially around new animals. Period.
BTW, working LGD's can sell for as much as 800.00 each, not a free dog by any means.
These are not "farm" dogs, they are considered livestock in many places, and deserve to be treated and cared for as such. 
I would never consider shooting one of my dogs, if they killed a new animal, the fault is with me for not allowing a period of introduction, plain and simple. The dog is doing it's job protecting the other animals from the "intruder" as it sees the new animal.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> That is where i wouldn't feel safe. Even if i thought the dog was good with people and let the new owner know why i was rehoming it. I could never feel right wondering if it would bite someone... and if i ever found out it did then I would really feel sick about it.


Why would it bite a person because it had killed a chicken? Do you expect a Rat Terrier to bite a person because it kills mice?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> pretty sure my age doesn't matter. You are the one that is being unreasonable. My passion is LIVESTOCK. I spend thousands of dollars on my sheep and goats every year. I show all over the Pacific Northwest. I will not risk my valuable sheep for a dog. Simple as that. Just depends on your priorities. Livestock or dogs. Mine is livestock, yours is dogs.


Nope. My livestock and dogs do quite well together. My Pyrs protected my sheep against grizzlies, wolves and cougars and we never lost one to a predator because of those dogs. We had a dog that killed chickens and rehomed it successfully. How would shooting it have protected my sheep any better?

I only asked because you sound very young and inexperienced and didn't want to argue with a teenager.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

Well you are lucky that your dogs get along with your livestock. Not all do. And I am an adult, thanks.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I suspect that those suggesting killing the dog have not and do not have LGD,S guarding their stock.


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

painterswife said:


> I suspect that those suggesting killing the dog have not and do not have LGD,S guarding their stock.


well, you are wrong


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

baileysclublamb said:


> well, you are wrong


What kind do you have then?


----------



## baileysclublamb (Nov 17, 2013)

GP antolian cross. He doesn't live in our sheep pen, he patrols our property. A dog is a dog and I wouldn't keep one with my sheep. If he ever killed one, he would be shot.


----------



## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

baileysclublamb said:


> No, I take the dog ON A LEASH into the sheep pen. If it freaks out and gets excited, snaps at them, its gone. Maybe you don't need livestock if you think every livestock killer needs to live. Dogs are ( for the most part) free, My sheep are not. When I pay thousands for my rams, I value my sheep more than a dog.


Dogs are predators. If you can't bother with training and choose to condemn the dog to death by a first experience you shouldn't have one. Please at least warn the person you are purchasing the dog from that you are more than willing to shoot it if it looks cross-eyed at a ewe.


----------



## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

So, you use him as a general "Farm" dog.
Whatever works for you. Antolian/Pyr's are amazingly good with livestock. Too bad he's not being allowed to show you what a true LGD can do..
Not my business how you do things, just my opinion.
Maybe, if you had more practical experience with them actually working with your stock, instead of just being a "Dog", you would better understand what we are trying to say.
Have a good night.:cowboy:


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I agree with hersmama, it was the first time my immature LGD, smelled a newborn lamb. The ewes and lambs were pinned in the barn. I was at work. The ewe had her lamb next to a small whole in the inner wall. And he pulled it through. I got home ad the damage was done, he is now seperated from the sheep until he can be trusted.

I learned a lesson an expensive lesson. But he guards the pasture just fine, he will be worked on during lambing season too. He guards just fine, he's just still immature. He was even raised with the sheep in a seperate pen. His brother has never harmed the sheep. 

The bottom line is they know their job, sometimes they just dont mature till much later. DO THE WORK!! LGD's are not petsmart dogs, they actually work. But you as a responsible owner now know that your LGD needs more maturity and penned off from the others...do your part and they will.


----------



## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

baileysclublamb said:


> Who would want an ex lgd? Really, they don't make good pet dogs. Yes there are a few that do, but for the most part they don't. Like I said, shoot it.


BS this rescue will prove otherwise http://www.nationalpyr.org I have owned a pyrenees as a pet and they are wonderful pets, granted they bark a bit, but nothing bad.


----------



## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

hercsmama said:


> Here's the thing people, LGD's are a different type of dog, they are not your average canine.
> They need proper training, and introduction to new livestock. Simple as that.
> Alot of people get them thinking how wonderful, I can just turn out this 150 pound dog with my Sheep, Goats, Cattle, Whatever, and all will be well. NO!!!!
> They are killers, plain and simple.
> ...


 Exactly OP's dogs did not see these sheep as part of their pack because they were goat dogs. This is an owner mistake and killing the dogs would be wrong. I would rehome the one that ate the ewe for sure and make sure that in the future you do proper introductions and feed your dogs well.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I believe enough has been said.


----------

