# Pain Killers & government



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Has anyone noticed that getting your prescriptions for pain medications filled is becoming harder this last month or so? I had to go back on some meds I was off for a good while and was having a hard time finding a pharmacy that had the medication. You cant call around to find a good price or find out if they have the meds in stock, they wont tell you. Last month I took the prescription to Rite Aid and had to wait 5 days to get it filled, this month the 28th they just said they could not get any more in till after the 6 th of April. I finally asked why and was told the government is controlling the amount of pills the pharmacy can order for the month. So it makes people drive all over to find a pharmacy that has your drug in stock. I am sure people misuse the medications but dont punish me because of other people.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Certain pain meds that are popular to abuse, they are making it very inconvenient for the people who need them to get them. 

With the limits on cold and allergy meds, some of the family with bad allergies have to get another family member to buy some for them. It is ridiculous, the wrong people are punished.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Oh yeah.
My wife is a counselor in a program that teaches alternative pain management without narcotics. As a former patient, she saw the writing on the wall a few years ago and quit when it was becoming a small hassle. Now it is a BIG one. Her clients are complaining about it all over the country (she coaches by conference call).
The hardest part to get people to believe is that their pain level will be the same or less WITHOUT the drugs.
From a strictly chemical point of view, they start losing effectiveness after 7 days. After that, the only "pain" is in the brain wanting the drug, not in the body part that received the initial trauma that started it all.
The VA has started using these techniques to get their patients off pain meds. I don't know what the national average is, but so far her clients have over a 90% success rate. 
(It's actually 100% but she gets new ones every 6 months and I'd like to leave her some "wiggle room".) 
The fact that the U.S. population is only 2% of the world yet we use 80% of the narcotics ought to tell you something..............


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> The fact that the U.S. population is only 2% of the world yet we use 80% of the narcotics ought to tell you something..............



Answers the question of why we're still 'fighting' in Afghanistan after 13 years.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

It tells me most of the worlds population doesn't have access to medication.

Government should not regulate the use of drugs in a free society. 

Jim


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Jim Bunton said:


> It tells me most of the worlds population doesn't have access to medication.
> 
> Government should not regulate the use of drugs in a free society.
> 
> Jim


My libertarian stance agrees with you on the last part.


But I don't believe that all of the other countries of the world don't have access to it.
They just know how it's supposed to be used.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TnAndy said:


> Answers the question of why we're still 'fighting' in Afghanistan after 13 years.


Very wise, I had forgotten about the poppies.
One of the big companies actually bought a whole island in Tasmania to grow a hybrid poppy that's more potent.
This link is just a general one. I didn't link that specific story.
https://www.google.com/search?clien...ania+bought+to+grow+poppies&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I've had the misfortune of trying to find a new doctor due to a move. I had to fill out the regular question forms and included was a form regarding "pain" that was 3 pages long if you were experiencing any! Quite detailed questions too. I've never seen anything like it before. I figured they must get a lot of pain med requests???


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## My2butterflies (Jan 17, 2015)

Is it just hard to get pain meds if you are taking them for chronic pain? I've had surgery a couple times, wisdom teeth removed, and a cough that would not let me sleep. All times I was given narcotics and the only hassle was I had to bring in a signed prescription from my dr instead of her being able to call it in. And my wait was never more then 15mins to pick it up. Or is this more of an issue in big cities? I do live in a small town.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I go to pain management and even with my issues they will not give me any narcotics. When I had my surgery done in 2010 the orthopedist was allowed to give me percocet for 12 months after the procedure because I was participating in physical therapy and seeing him regularly for follow-ups.

I had a really hard time recovering from my 2nd c-section (16 months after my first one), I have a high pain tolerance due to my chronic pain but I was hurting bad  My OB/GYN kept telling me that I had to take the percocet every 6 hours round the clock... then she'd hand me an Rx for 10 percocet (no refills of course) and say "See you back in a week!". I asked her how the heck I was supposed to take 4 pills a day per her advice if she could only give me 10 in a week and she really never had an answer for me :bash:

I know that narcotics only work for so long before you become habituated to them. I really do get that. What I do when I'm not in post-surgical pain is I divide my pills into separate pain levels.... OTC pain meds like Alieve and Advil are for regular pain days. If I'm more painful than usual I take one of my muscle relaxers instead of the OTC stuff. If it's a notch above that I take the heavy-duty muscle relaxers instead of anything else. I reserve percocet/vicodin/narcotics in general for "break glass in case of emergency" days when I absolutely cannot stand the pain. I'd give my left pinky finger if my pain management doc would give me just 5 percocet a month for those really bad days... Instead I have to combine meds and take Alieve and a heavy duty muscle relaxer and sometimes one of the light-duty muscle relaxers too just to be able to do what I need to do to make it through the day :help: I should own stock in IcyHot patches, I go thru sometimes a whole box in a day. I always keep 9 volt batteries on hand in case the one in my TENS unit dies on me.

It's endlessly frustrating :run:


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

ER and family doctors can no longer prescribe narcotic pain relievers. Any pain relievers they do prescribe (Tylonal 3 for example) can be no more than a 1 or 2 week supply and must have a written prescription (as opposed to one sent electronically).
Just because some people abused them I have to live with additional temporary pain that could easily be taken care of.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> ER and family doctors can no longer prescribe narcotic pain relievers. Any pain relievers they do prescribe (Tylonal 3 for example) can be no more than a 1 or 2 week supply and must have a written prescription (as opposed to one sent electronically).
> Just because some people abused them I have to live with additional temporary pain that could easily be taken care of.


That may be true in TX but it's absolutely not true nationally. I take Tylenol #3, had a new prescription filled last week, by my family health provider (a PA) and it has 3 refills. It's also not true that it has to paper script, in NY it can't be paper and _must_ be filed electronically because it has to go through a state database.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I've had a script for a pain killer for over twenty years that is often abused. The reason my Dr. readily fills it is because it's a one month script but I only take it when absolutely necessary so it lasts me over a year.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> ER and family doctors can no longer prescribe narcotic pain relievers.


They're still licensed to prescribe, but most family doctors find the new record keeping requirements prohibitive. Doctors are now required to keep and submit records tracking the use of pain medications. Most don't have the staff to do that, so the refer their patients to pain clinics who are already setup for record keeping.

I expect that problem to eventually take care of itself, since nearly all doctors use medical practice software now. Medication tracking should become a standard software feature in the future.

This is a case of a few bad actors ruining for everyone else. I'm not sure that tracking prescription drug abuse is worth the compromise of medical care we're seeing as a result.

If your doctor thinks you should have it, that should be good enough.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> They're still licensed to prescribe, but most family doctors find the new record keeping requirements prohibitive. Doctors are now required to keep and submit records tracking the use of pain medications. Most don't have the staff to do that, so the refer their patients to pain clinics.
> 
> I expect that problem to eventually take care of itself, since nearly all doctors use medical practice software now. Medication tracking should become a standard software feature in the future.
> 
> ...


Software won't solve the DEA "record keeping", that's what it's about.
If you don't know what I mean, go ask a pain doctor. He'll fill you in on what's changed the last few years.
As far whether or not you think there's a real problem going on and whether there are thousands of docs writing scripts as fast as the cash comes in - open your eyes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> They're still licensed to prescribe, but most family doctors find the new record keeping requirements prohibitive. Doctors are now required to keep and submit records tracking the use of pain medications. Most don't have the staff to do that, so the refer their patients to pain clinics who are already setup for record keeping.
> 
> I expect that problem to eventually take care of itself, since nearly all doctors use medical practice software now. Medication tracking should become a standard software feature in the future.
> 
> ...


Pretty much. NY has been working on this for 4-5 years, and it was fully implemented last month. When the program was first started my MIL called my husband in tears because her sister told her to get pain killers you'd have to get a Congressman to approve it. That's how stupid information gets started. He explained that NY was implementing a program that tracked (and changed the scheduling) of narcotics. She had no problem getting pain medication.

There are Drs that over prescribe narcotics, but your primary Dr. knows your condition and quality of life must be considered as well.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> As far whether or not you think there's a real problem going on and whether there are thousands of docs writing scripts as fast as the cash comes in - open your eyes.


I didn't say there was no problem, I just said the compromise of medical care wasn't worth it. Quite frankly, those problems have nothing to do with me, yet my medical care is compromised. I really don't see what we're getting out of these restrictions.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> There are Drs that over prescribe narcotics


Sure. It's obvious when a doctor is running a pill mill. That's not what we're talking about here.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> I didn't say there was no problem, I just said the compromise of medical care wasn't worth it. Quite frankly, those problems have nothing to do with me, yet my medical care is compromised. I really don't see what we're getting out of these restrictions.


I get that you don't see it. And I doubt there are members here that ARE abusing pain meds. But you will read stories from time to time about friend, relatives and neighbors who do. It's an unspoken epidemic in this country.
What I'm talking about specifically are narcotics like oxycontin.
The DEA crackdown extends to lesser drugs like codeine but that isn't as hard to get and shouldn't be used long term anyway.
But much like the discussions about vaccines, what gets prescribed to some, DOES affect others around us, like it or not.

Another consideration that caused my wife to give up hers, is all the Tylenol that is taken with those meds. It's basically used as a "cut" in the pill but all that is hard on your liver, especially if you've got a liver disease to boot.

The simple fact is, there's a lot of money to be made selling drugs, and not everyone has your best interest in mind when they do it. If you've got a great doctor who does, good for you, but from what I've seen in the pain med arena, they aren't the majority.

And as I said in my first post, once people get past the fear of cutting way back or eliminate taking it long term, they find their pain level hasn't increased at all, just the opposite. There are better, healthier ways to manage it.




Nevada said:


> Sure. It's obvious when a doctor is running a pill mill. That's not what we're talking about here.


But that's just it. These restrictions ARE the result of all the pill mills.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> And as I said in my first post, once people get past the fear of cutting way back or eliminate taking it long term, they find their pain level hasn't increased at all, just the opposite. There are better, healthier ways to manage it.


Maybe so, but I would prefer that my doctor made that decision. What you advocate is turning those medical decisions over to politicians & law enforcement. Maybe I can't stop it, but I don't have to like it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Sure. It's obvious when a doctor is running a pill mill. That's not what we're talking about here.


That is what caused the new restrictions although it's really not a new phenomenon


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

No it isn't really new. In the 70's they had to stop making Quaaludes because they were over prescribed and became a big party drug. In the 80's Valium took over and after that the hillbilly heroin.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That is what caused the new restrictions although it's really not a new phenomenon


Oh, of course not. I did fire/rescue and ambulance work 30 years ago and saw it. People screw up. It's a fact. But it's not justification to take medical decisions out of the hands of doctors.

People die from prescription pain meds. I know that. I've even watched it happen. But it's a rare prescription overdose that doesn't involve not following the instructions on the bottle, and/or alcohol. But taking pain meds isn't a game. If you don't follow your doctor's instructions then fine, you live (or die) with the consequences. But don't compromise my medical care over it.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Maybe so, but I would prefer that my doctor made that decision. What you advocate is turning those medical decisions over to politicians & law enforcement. Maybe I can't stop it, but I don't have to like it.


Let me correct you.
I wasn't _advocating_ it, just explaining what happened and why.

Some of this stuff like Oxycontin and Fentanyl was originally made only for terminal cancer patients in the last few months of their lives. That's something NO ONE should interfere with, but I don't advocate jr. high kids passing that stuff around in class either.
Maybe you can give Obama a better way to handle it. :shrug:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

The Govt wouldn't need to take more control if people could show some responsibility, but that's not going to happen.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The Govt wouldn't need to take more control if people could show some responsibility, but that's not going to happen.


Yes, people are going to do what they're going to do. And some doctors are even going to turn it into a business. Fine, bust them as it's encountered. But I don't see what any of that has to do with me or my doctor.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Maybe you can give Obama a better way to handle it.


The better way to handle it is to not handle it. These are medical decisions, not political or law enforcement decisions.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

The most egregious mistake the government has made in pain management is cannabis. They'll allow for medical opioids, which are more dangerous, more addictive, and may actually be less effective.... But medical cannabis, which by the way usually has incredibly small amounts of THC, oh now we can't do cannabis, OH no no no that's bad, so bad. Bad I tell you.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> The better way to handle it is to not handle it. These are medical decisions, not political or law enforcement decisions.


Selling pills on the street to addicts isn't a law enforcement problem?
As you say, bust the ones breaking the law, but doctors have been able to get away with supplying the stuff *because* they have a degree and a license.
As long as the supply is making it to the streets, it's like bailing a boat with a thimble.

I appreciate your views on government overreach, but this doesn't sound like the same Nevada that used to talk about following the law when the gov't knows what's best for us.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Selling pills on the street to addicts isn't a law enforcement problem?
> As you say, bust the ones breaking the law, but doctors have been able to get away with supplying the stuff *because* they have a degree and a license.
> As long as the supply is making it to the streets, it's like bailing a boat with a thimble.
> 
> I appreciate your views on government overreach, but this doesn't sound like the same Nevada that used to talk about following the law when the gov't knows what's best for us.


I'm not talking about selling pills on the street. I'm talking about my doctor writing a prescription and me filling it at a pharmacy. What happens on the street is not my concern. I suspect there will always be something to buy on the street.

I'm not understanding the concern here. Is it that pills are being sold on the street, that people overdose, that doctors are going into the pill mill business, or that someone might be getting high?

I suggest responsible gun control and people's heads explode, but those same people don't mind stripping doctors of their license to dispense pain medications when indicated. I have a hard time accepting that this has anything to do with preventing people from dying.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The Govt wouldn't need to take more control if people could show some responsibility, but that's not going to happen.



It used to be our government was supposed to simply protect our rights and keep us from hurting each other.

Now it is supposed to eliminate all irresponsible behavior and keep us from hurting ourselves? Where does that end?

We are now in an obesity epidemic. People overeating and eating bad food and sitting too much. Philosophically speaking, if they must restrict irresponsible drug use, I don't understand why they shouldn't crack down on deadly eating behaviors and lack of exercise.

We seem to cherry pick which behaviors we control.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> I'm not talking about selling pills on the street. I'm talking about my doctor writing a prescription and me filling it at a pharmacy. What happens on the street is not my concern. I suspect there will always be something to buy on the street.


Well, despite your denials, that IS what we're talking about, Rx drugs getting into the wrong hands.





Nevada said:


> I'm not understanding the concern here. Is it that pills are being sold on the street, that people overdose, that doctors are going into the pill mill business, or that someone might be getting high?


All of the above.



Nevada said:


> I suggest responsible gun control and people's heads explode, but those same people don't mind stripping doctors of their license to dispense pain medications when indicated. I have a hard time accepting that this has anything to do with preventing people from dying.



I don't know about that. I feel pretty much the same about all issues of gov't control. I agree with you on that.
But unless you've had your tv off for the last 10 years, I don't understand why you don't see people dying over this stuff every day. IIRC, they now surpass vehicle deaths.

But again, don't misunderstand me. Because I can explain it, doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

DJ in WA said:


> It used to be our government was supposed to simply protect our rights *and keep us from hurting each other*.
> 
> Now it is supposed to eliminate all irresponsible behavior and keep us from hurting ourselves? Where does that end?
> 
> ...


Not allowing easy and virtually unlimited access to opioids *is* preventing people from hurting both themselves and others. They are simply tightening the controls already in place to stop the blatant abuse and over use.

There is no realistic comparison to food and excercise


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not allowing easy and virtually unlimited access to opioids *is* preventing people from hurting both themselves and others.


Can't the same be said about guns?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Can't the same be said about guns?


Yes.
You'll notice if you look down, your shoes are on the other feet now.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not allowing easy and virtually unlimited access to opioids *is* preventing people from hurting both themselves and others. They are simply tightening the controls already in place to stop the blatant abuse and over use.


We had a system in place that works pretty well. People who studied and practiced medicine for years were licensed to prescribe medications. Now, politicians and law enforcement are saying they've been doing it wrong.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> All of the above.


So the problem isn't anything in particular? What's changed that makes it necessary to have new restrictions now?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> We had a system in place that works pretty well. People who studied and practiced medicine for years were licensed to prescribe medications. Now, politicians and law enforcement are saying they've been doing it wrong.





Nevada said:


> So the problem isn't anything in particular? What's changed that makes it necessary to have new restrictions now?


Are you saying you haven't heard of this before now?
There's a whole network set up to do this. It's been on 60 minutes, Dateline, and local news wherever you are.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Are you saying you haven't heard of this before now?
> There's a whole network set up to do this. It's been on 60 minutes, Dateline, and local news wherever you are.


What I'm saying is that I've been aware of it for over 30 years. Why the big push now?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> What I'm saying is that I've been aware of it for over 30 years. Why the big push now?


I keep asking if you're unaware, but this last reply you said you knew.
Ok, here.

http://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/

It starts with.........

*The United States is in the midst of an opioid overdose epidemic.

Opioids (including prescription opioid pain relievers and heroin) killed more than 28,000 people in 2014, more than any year on record. At least half of all opioid overdose deaths involve a prescription opioid.*


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> *Opioids (including prescription opioid pain relievers and heroin) killed more than 28,000 people in 2014, more than any year on record. At least half of all opioid overdose deaths involve a prescription opioid.*


So it's the deaths that's disturbing you?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Remember when you could go buy good ole Suedophed at the local drugstore when allergy season hit?
What happened there?
C'mon Nevada, you're smarter than that, stop playin'.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> So it's the deaths that's disturbing you?



Is that a trick question?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Is that a trick question?


When I asked a few posts back you couldn't say for sure. Now you say you're disturbed at the number of deaths.

PS - That's only about 1/4 the number of gun deaths in America.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Remember when you could go buy good ole Suedophed at the local drugstore when allergy season hit?
> What happened there?


I still buy it at my local drug store, so I have no idea what happened.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> When I asked a few posts back you couldn't say for sure. Now you say you're disturbed at the number of deaths.
> 
> PS - That's only about 1/4 the number of gun deaths in America.


Um......where did I say I was disturbed by the deaths?
And when I said "all of the above", that was an affirmative statement, not a doubtful one.



I can explain every reason the gun control lobby has for wanting new laws.
That doesn't mean I'm in favor of it.
(I think this is the 3rd time I've said this in the thread)


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> I still buy it at my local drug store, so I have no idea what happened.


Seriously? You aren't yanking' my chain?
They didn't move "the good stuff" behind the counter, make you show I.D., fill out paperwork and put a limit on how may you can buy in a month?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Um......where did I say I was disturbed by the deaths?
> And when I said "all of the above", that was an affirmative statement, not a doubtful one.
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe you should decide why you want to control pain meds before posting back. I have no idea what you want.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Maybe you should decide why you want to control pain meds before posting back. I have no idea what you want.


How about read what I wrote?
I have no idea where you got that from, maybe someone else's post?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> How about read what I wrote?
> I have no idea where you got that from, maybe someone else's post?


Until you organize your thoughts, I'm done here.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Well, despite your denials, that IS what we're talking about, Rx drugs getting into the wrong hands.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





farmrbrown said:


> *My libertarian stance agrees with you on the last part.*
> 
> 
> But I don't believe that all of the other countries of the world don't have access to it.
> They just know how it's supposed to be used.





farmrbrown said:


> Um......where did I say I was disturbed by the deaths?
> And when I said "all of the above", that was an affirmative statement, not a doubtful one.
> 
> 
> ...




Organized enough?

I stated what the problem was, that brought this gov't action.
I said narcotics aren't effective long term, aren't good for you and there are better ways to handle pain.
I said that the gov't shouldn't come between you and your doctor.

Smoking isn't good for my health and when I decide I don't want to anymore, I won't smoke, as I've done in the past. But I don't agree with outlawing tobacco. That's gov't overreach.

Is that confusing to you?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Can't the same be said about guns?


Guns are more tightly controlled than opioids.
There are no age restrictions or background checks for pills, and if you eliminate suicides and justifiable homicides, pills kill far more people


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> What I'm saying is that I've been aware of it for over 30 years. Why the big push now?


The "push" now is little different than before
The headlines are the biggest difference.

Think about how many times since WWII Meth has been about to destroy the country "if we don't stop it now"


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> When I asked a few posts back you couldn't say for sure. Now you say you're disturbed at the number of deaths.
> 
> PS - That's only about *1/4 the number of gun deaths in America.*


I'd like to see your source for that figure
You seem to be saying there are around 112,000 gun deaths per year


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

I can't count the number of times a rep from a drug company has been in the doctors office selling a new drug. The doctors don't even know many times what it is. They take the reps word for it and start prescribing. It is fast to easy to get pills around here. So many people on pain meds who just sell them. Heck every time I go to the dentist even for a filling he offers pain meds. I decline and wonder how it could be so easy with the problems we have. And as BFF said. Far more people die from prescription drugs than probably any other factor in America. Edpecially guns. Not just from overdose but allergic reactions and negative interactions with other prescription drugs.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> When I asked a few posts back you couldn't say for sure. Now you say you're disturbed at the number of deaths.
> 
> PS - That's only about 1/4 the number of gun deaths in America.


 28,000 is one quarter of the gun deaths?


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

If you have a better method for pain control I'd love to hear it. My husband has degenerative bone disease and were it not for the pain meds he would be dead today at his own hand simply because he could not live another minute in that state of pain. It is getting harder each month to get his meds. He used to go to Walgreens but they kept telling him they were out so he'd go all over town from one store to the next. Then the switched to CVS and they filled them for a few months before giving him the same run around. How can a pharmacy be out of pills all the time? He finally went to a local mom and pop pharmacy and they have been good but this month we bought the last pill they had. I see the struggle my husband has every day of his life and we've tried the tens unit, physical therapy, gluten free, shots in the back, other non pain meds, and there is nothing else to try. It is sure easy for some to say you don't need them. Maybe you don't need them but some people do yet it is becoming impossible to get. I'm not worried about the junkie that wants to buy them on the street. He's going to buy something else when this is not available. I'm worried about the people who really need pain meds to live due to cancer, bone disease, etc. Don't punish my husband for what the junkie does.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jim Bunton said:


> It tells me most of the worlds population doesn't have access to medication.
> 
> Government should not regulate the use of drugs in a free society.
> 
> Jim


I absolutely agree with the first part, but I think there needs to be some regulation on medication.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'd like to see your source for that figure
> You seem to be saying there are around 112,000 gun deaths per year


 The CDC puts total number of deaths from firearms in 2013 at 33,636. 

Jim


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Miss Kay said:


> If you have a better method for pain control I'd love to hear it. My husband has degenerative bone disease and were it not for the pain meds he would be dead today at his own hand simply because he could not live another minute in that state of pain. It is getting harder each month to get his meds. He used to go to Walgreens but they kept telling him they were out so he'd go all over town from one store to the next. Then the switched to CVS and they filled them for a few months before giving him the same run around. How can a pharmacy be out of pills all the time? He finally went to a local mom and pop pharmacy and they have been good but this month we bought the last pill they had. I see the struggle my husband has every day of his life and we've tried the tens unit, physical therapy, gluten free, shots in the back, other non pain meds, and there is nothing else to try. It is sure easy for some to say you don't need them. Maybe you don't need them but some people do yet it is becoming impossible to get. I'm not worried about the junkie that wants to buy them on the street. He's going to buy something else when this is not available. I'm worried about the people who really need pain meds to live due to cancer, bone disease, etc. Don't punish my husband for what the junkie does.


OH NO YOU can buy then on the street EASY a 5 milligram oxicodone costs $5, 10 mg $10 each and so on. The drug store told me the government only allows them to order a set number of schedule 2 /3 drugs pain meds. oxicodone, hydrocodone, ect. Tylenol 3 is not one that is controlled as hard. I could get that all day long but it makes me throwup so what the point. If I cant get out of bed because of pain or because Im throwing up. If insurance company's would let me have the setrioud injections then I wouldn't need pills. but no they wont approve that. Workers comp is bad bad bad to deal with.
Schedule II/IIN Controlled Substances (2/2N)
Substances in this schedule have a high potential for abuse which may lead to severe psychological or physical dependence.\

Examples of Schedule II narcotics include: hydromorphone (Dilaudid), methadone (Dolophine), meperidine (Demerol), oxycodone (OxyContin, Percocet), and fentanyl (Sublimaze, Duragesic). Other Schedule II narcotics include: morphine, opium, and codeine.

Examples of Schedule IIN stimulants include: amphetamine (Dexedrine, Adderall), methamphetamine (Desoxyn), and methylphenidate (Ritalin).

Other Schedule II substances include: amobarbital, glutethimide, and pentobarbital.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

> Examples of Schedule II narcotics include: hydromorphone (Dilaudid), methadone (Dolophine), meperidine (Demerol), oxycodone (OxyContin, Percocet), and fentanyl (Sublimaze, Duragesic). Other Schedule II narcotics include: morphine, opium, and codeine.



That is the full menu of painkillers my wife was on for close to 10 years as a result of a fused lumbar and a titanium plate holding her neck together.

It takes about that long, struggling with the nausea, dizziness, mind-stopping pain, and constant health problems, doctor's appointments and ER visits to realize what is, and isn't working.
The difference in her health between then and now is like night and day. She marvels at what kind of life she had vs. now.

The #1 obstacle, bar none, is the fear.
That fear continually tells one that it is impossible to go on with those meds. You'll go insane, you'll die - either from suicide or from the pain itself.

It's only after years of a downward spiral that you get the courage to try what no one believes will work. All of her clients have the same story as hers, and the founder of the program, nearly identical. That's one of the reasons I don't like the gov't interfering by "forcing" a change. It HAS to be a voluntary decision, and that usually happens after many years and immense desperation.


Make no mistake, there is no miracle cure, no silver bullet, no 100% complete removal of all pain for all time. That's ridiculous.
Naivety is an enemy too. Stopping narcotics abruptly can kill you and having the access to narcotics when they are truly needed (maybe 3 or 4 days a year) is important and should be between you and your doctor NOT the gov't.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

No one has the right to assume they know what your pain is or how if effects the quality of _your_ life. Which is why, in my opinion, the primary decision for pain medication should be with an individual's health care provider along with reasonable government regulation. 

My husband had lumbar spinal fusion with hardware due to a work related injury, used narcotics, didn't become addicted and/or dependent, returned to school and graduated with his RN:BS. He's worked full time since with no dependence on any type of drug. The medications aren't always a problem, they can be but it's more likely the _person_ rather than drug. That's my anecdotal story. I have another that involves a woman with a double knee replacement but it pretty much mirrors my husband's outcome.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

another daily opioid user here. I have severe RA that has put me in an electric wheelchair on the days that I am able to get out of bed. My RA doctor is over an hour away, which makes the new rules very hard. Where I once could get 30 days with refills, I can now only get 30 days and must have a new written Rx every month. My disease is very fluid, some days I need pain meds every 4 hours and other days I can go the whole day with none, so the idea that fear is the reason I use pain med is BS. I would also like to say that my son pushed and pushed until I at least tried cannabis. I found that it did help in increasing the effectiveness of the pain meds, but did not offer the relief that opioids do.

For myself, my primary care dr will give me a 30 day Rx as an emergency stop-gap with an office visit, drug test (to show I am taking the med and not selling it, and not taking illegal drugs) and showing my last bottle. This was worked out with a couple of phone calls with my primary and RA doc. 

I feel sorry for the people who need (yes, need) these meds and can't get them, or are made to feel like a junkie for even asking for them.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The "push" now is little different than before
> The headlines are the biggest difference.


I don't care about headlines. The big difference, as I see it, is that my primary care doctor can't prescribe the meds she wants to, and has to refer her patients to a pain clinic. That's a huge difference, and hits very close to home.

No doubt about it, medical care for all of us has just been compromised severely.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Forcast said:


> OH NO YOU can buy then on the street EASY a 5 milligram oxicodone costs $5, 10 mg $10 each and so on.


This keeps coming up. Why should what the drug culture does be such a big concern to the rest of us? People also make a lot of money selling weed. So what?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I would guess the drug companies are missing profits, and they really hate that.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

coolrunnin said:


> I would guess the drug companies are missing profits, and they really hate that.


I suspect that opioids are more trouble than they're worth to drug manufacturers. Most opioids have generics that sell for next to nothing. The profit margin on those drugs is almost certainly very slim.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I suspect that opioids are more trouble than they're worth to drug manufacturers. Most opioids have generics that sell for next to nothing. The profit margin on those drugs is almost certainly very slim.


Definitely. Most are generic and cost less than $5 a month.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Show me the generic for oxycodone IR ? This is a new drug for me and I can tell you first hand it works and no extra stuff, so no upset stomic from all the extra drug they put in. I broke my neck at work in 2006 have plates and screws c4-c7, the cadaver bone is falling apart. Just had an MRI this week. My surgeon wont touch it. So for now Im back on the oxy IR. and it sure helps. I went years without needing anything but maybe an over the counter pill. I just dont understand why people that use the drugs for the right reasons at the right amount have to search ( in person) ( the store wont tell you over the phone) for the store that has it. Pain clinics carry it but workers comp wont approve it on the day of your appointment so you have to keep checking and go back and forth. Its a 1 1/2 hr drive one way for me. I just think the government needs to stay out of our doctors office.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Forcast said:


> I just think the government needs to stay out of our doctors office.


That's really the long and the short of it.

They've already backtracked on the purpose of the new regulations. The purpose was the tighten rules on long term use of opioids (defined as 3 months or more). So why tighten regulations on all use of opioids, including short term use?

As you said, stay out of my doctor's office.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Forcast said:


> Show me the generic for oxycodone IR ?


I thought IR was the designation for Immediate Release (as opposed to extended release). Isn't oxycodone IR just regular oxycodone?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I thought IR was the designation for Immediate Release (as opposed to extended release). Isn't oxycodone IR just regular oxycodone?


That's what Google says, it's just regular generic oxycodone.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Michigan has been on the script database set up by the state. Requires your doctor to check if another doctor is already filling the pain scripts. That has been the problem, people would visit a bunch of doctors and get scripts. Take what they want and sell the rest. This really has put a halt to Doctor shopping. As for getting enough meds to last it's a matter of how you write the script. I get Vicodin for a collapsed vertebra, all he needs to do is raise the number of pills per day for me to have a 90 day supply. As I travel for a living it can be tough with out pain meds when things get hurting. Use only what you need because when you need them you want them to work. I have been on this regime for years and have yet to ask for a dosage increase. These are not toys or party favors.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm calling BS on Farmrbrown too. Not sure what your wife is selling but she has no clue what my husband goes through.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

so a name brand is __________ and oxycodone is the generic? Not sure I know the difference.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*Print your pills at home: Researchers reveal fridge-sized machine that can make prescription drugs on demand*


> Currently able to produce four drugs formulated as solutions
> Can make 1,000 doses of drugs in just 24 hours
> Device looks to develop a flow process where drugs are made in one place
> Working on a smaller system that produces more complex drugs
> ...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3519735/Print-pills-home-Researchers-reveal-fridge-sized-machine-make-prescription-drugs-demand.html


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> This keeps coming up. *Why should what the drug culture does be such a big concern to the rest of us?* People also make a lot of money selling weed. So what?


It's because they get the drugs through prescriptions


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Forcast said:


> so a name brand is __________ and oxycodone is the generic? Not sure I know the difference.


Yes. Oxycodone is the generic name.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Miss Kay said:


> I'm calling BS on Farmrbrown too. Not sure what your wife is selling but she has no clue what my husband goes through.


Since there is more than enough hurt to go around, I guess I should be glad to take my share of it.

My first instinct was to reach out and offer help to another who is truly hurting.

Then I hesitated to send a pm, when I started to detect some resentment and the unintentional feelings of accusations when a pain patient is asked to face some difficult facts, such as the topic of this thread.
"What happens to me if the doctors/government/drug companies decide one day to pull the rug out from under me?"

That's a frightening experience for anyone, their families included. For me, fear manifests itself in anger.
My wife and I went thru that very same trial.

She isn't selling anything, and there are some who participate pro bono, as she did.
I think she just wants to give back a little and help others the way she was helped.

I figured this would be a messy and sensitive topic to wade into, but difficult things often are, that's part of life.
Being hurtful instead of helpful isn't something I care to participate in, however.
:cowboy:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's because they get the drugs through prescriptions


That seems to disturb you more than it disturbs me.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> That seems to disturb you more than it disturbs me.


Actually it doesn't "disturb" me at all.
Reality seldom does, and I've seen enough reality that it seldom surprises me anymore either


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Actually it doesn't "disturb" me at all.


Then why should it be of concern? Drug dealers have to source their products from someplace, and this is nothing new.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Miss Kay said:


> If you have a better method for pain control I'd love to hear it. My husband has degenerative bone disease and were it not for the pain meds he would be dead today at his own hand simply because he could not live another minute in that state of pain. It is getting harder each month to get his meds. He used to go to Walgreens but they kept telling him they were out so he'd go all over town from one store to the next. Then the switched to CVS and they filled them for a few months before giving him the same run around. How can a pharmacy be out of pills all the time? He finally went to a local mom and pop pharmacy and they have been good but this month we bought the last pill they had. I see the struggle my husband has every day of his life and we've tried the tens unit, physical therapy, gluten free, shots in the back, other non pain meds, and there is nothing else to try. It is sure easy for some to say you don't need them. Maybe you don't need them but some people do yet it is becoming impossible to get. I'm not worried about the junkie that wants to buy them on the street. He's going to buy something else when this is not available. I'm worried about the people who really need pain meds to live due to cancer, bone disease, etc. Don't punish my husband for what the junkie does.


I am also a daily pain med person. No one has the right to judge someone who lives everyday with constant pain. I have some rather severe back problems which are continuing to worsen and at my last appointment with my pain Dr they are starting to discuss the possibility of surgery which I am not happy about. I also have some severe degenerative problems in my right foot which has already had extensive surgery on it and the bones are now dying. I take pain meds to function without them I would be in bed the majority of the time.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> They're still licensed to prescribe, but most family doctors find the new record keeping requirements prohibitive. Doctors are now required to keep and submit records tracking the use of pain medications. Most don't have the staff to do that, so the refer their patients to pain clinics who are already setup for record keeping.
> 
> I expect that problem to eventually take care of itself, since nearly all doctors use medical practice software now. Medication tracking should become a standard software feature in the future.
> 
> ...


Different issue but this works fine until their system is hacked or attacked with ransomware. I have said all along that being dependent on an electronic system is a fool's game. More so when you have a place like a doc's office or hospital where there are tons of people who must have access to the system.

The weakest link in almost every security is the human.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Different issue but this works fine until their system is hacked or attacked with ransomware. I have said all along that being dependent on an electronic system is a fool's game. More so when you have a place like a doc's office or hospital where there are tons of people who must have access to the system.
> 
> The weakest link in almost every security is the human.


Electronic medical records are a good thing. We have computerized record keeping for banking, department store & credit card accounts, and even for credit reporting. Those systems work pretty well. It's here to say.

But electronic medical records will save lives and money. If you show up in the ER they'll know who you are and your entire medical history.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Electronic medical records are a good thing. We have computerized record keeping for banking, department store & credit card accounts, and even for credit reporting. Those systems work pretty well. It's here to say.
> 
> But electronic medical records will save lives and money. If you show up in the ER they'll know who you are and your entire medical history.


Unless I show up to a hospital where some smuck has set his password to "password" or has downloaded something or clicked on the wrong link in an email and their entire system is locked up until they pay a few thousand bit coins to get the key. Google "hospital hit by ransomware" and see what pops up. And this is just the start. Remember years ago when you first heard of "identity theft"? It sounded like a joke, how could someone steal you identity? Its no joke now is it?

I read the other day financial institutes spend something like 20% of their IT budget on security while major hospitals spend less than 2%.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Unless I show up to a hospital where some smuck has set his password to "password" or has downloaded something or clicked on the wrong link in an email and their entire system is locked up until they pay a few thousand bit coins to get the key. Google "hospital hit by ransomware" and see what pops up. And this is just the start. Remember years ago when you first heard of "identity theft"? It sounded like a joke, how could someone steal you identity? Its no joke now is it?
> 
> I read the other day financial institutes spend something like 20% of their IT budget on security while major hospitals spend less than 2%.


You can't stand in the way of progress.


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

Just another case of "I'm from the government, I'm here to help. The government with unlimited resources can't keep your records safe how can any entity keep them safe? Anyone who expects government to a good job at anything is a fool. The military you say the US hasn't won a war since 1945.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Then why should it be of concern? Drug dealers have to source their products from someplace, and *this is nothing new*.


And LEO's/Govt always try to limit the sources.
I agree there's nothing new here


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