# When Are You Pulling Your Money?



## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

Someone asked this in another thread and I didn't see an answer, so I am going to ask it again.

When are you pulling your money out and keeping it as cash?

How much are you keeping as cash? A couple hundred, a couple thousand?

What is your sign that says "Go now, or you won't be able to" and what was your sign that this point was coming. (Since it is pretty obvious it is almost here.)

I have to balance having cash out of the bank with the ability to write checks for all of those bills that still need to be paid. It isn't TEOTWAWKI yet and even if it was, I'm sure they'd find a way to make us pay those bills!

Kayleigh


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## halfpint (Jan 24, 2005)

My personal opinion is that if it's TEOTWAWKI, cash isn't going to do much good. So put what you have into what you will need or can barter with. 
Dawn


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

That is fine and all, but I think my husband would have me checked into a nice hotel wearing a straitjacket if he came home and I had spent all of our savings on farming implements.

I guess a better question would be what is that line that we should walk between being prepared for a survival situation and being prepared in case there isn't one.

Kayleigh


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

Kayleigh:

I might be the one you're referring to who asked that question about pulling money out of the bank.

And, I AM dead serious. In a few months, I'll be getting a settlement for an on-the-job injury that, for me, will be a lot of money. Chances are, because of this injury, I won't be able to return to the work force.

So, obviously, I am counting on this settlement to see me through my "golden years" and I'm deathly afraid of losing it.

My original plan, after doing some improvements to my house and property, was to put most of it in short and long-term c.d.'s.

Now, I'm not so sure if I even want to leave it in savings or checking.

Janis


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

What money? After I pay the bills, there's not much left over.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I pulled all mine from the market in October right before the market dropped nearly 2000 points. I keep that money on my property in a safe. My monthly income is direct deposited and we pay what needs paid and pull the rest. I have some gold and silver in a safe with me as well.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Well, if I HAD any money, I'd be thinking of converting FRNs into gold as fast as I could. As it is, I'm still buying stuff I KNOW we will use, mostly food. For the rest of my funds, as I get them, I'm repairing the house and trying to get things set up to run without extra cash input, as in more insulation so it doesn't take as much electricity to cool/heat and a wood stove for heat if the electric is off or goes too high. I keep the bank account drawn down routinely so I'm not too concerned about when to draw it out.

After you pay the bills, why not draw the rest out and pay cash for anything else you need that month?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I don't know if I want to pull out everything in cash.......

As long as merchants accept credit cards, I'll be golden.

My wonder is, when the banks start failing, and a cascade effect happens, will the credit card system fail during the cascade????

If the cc industry stays up longer than the banks, I could equalize my cc debt to equal what I have in fiat currency cds. I'd rather have the goods, and owe money to the cc companies, as long as I could pay with my bank funds. Does that make sense????

TSC... three or four thousand
Ace Hardware... got my 'list' ready.... five thousand
The two local gunstores... three thousand
Asian market.... 500, or HEB 2 thousand.......

In a bank failure cascade, I'd go with hardware (tools, equipment) first... cause all of it would have resale value, and no worries about insect damage (to food) if I had to store a couple tons in an emergency storage situation...

so my trigger is a bank failure, and FDIC stepping in... Then several failures... a couple of smaller banks failing will do it for me......

Of course, my cc cards are with "large banks"... Guess I better go ahead and get one of those silly bank debit cards...


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

I am only keeping enough in the bank to pay bills. I have a small amount at home (around a hundred dollars). I'd like it to be more, but right now I'm still trying to purchase essential preps, and I don't think the cash is going to be worth much before long. 

Folks, if you really want to keep track of what's going on with the economy, go over to The Tree of Liberty at http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/forum/index.php We've got some people there who have been calling the shots correctly for over a year now. They have some pretty good sources of information, and according to those sources, a LARGE bank is in the process of failing as we speak. A bunch of others have been down-graded and may fail 'soon' (date-setting is not as accurate as event-forecasting). There is a LOT of stuff going on that is NOT getting onto the TV or into the newspapers -- if you believe anything you hear on the MSM, you are going to be caught short when this all falls apart.

Thankfully, I just got my tax return (plus EIC for my handicapped daughter), and am stocking up on food staples (had some, but when this order comes, we should have enough basic stuff for a year); essential tools and equipment; and a few more chicks and some feed. Oh, yes, and those seeds for me and the whole neighborhood. The only thing I'm still not going to be able to manage is the wood stove that we need (our house is all-electric). Maybe that's what that 'rebate' check will go towards.

Kathleen


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

Ok, I have what might be considered a "dumb" question: if the "large" banks are already failing, or are "getting ready" to fail, is a small bank a better place (if there is one) to have your money?

The bank I currently bank at, I guess, could be considered "regional," as opposed to nation-wide, or even state-wide. Heck, they don't even have a branch in my current county of residence; I've been doing my banking by mail since moving here 2 1/2 years ago.

I've been thinking about putting my money into a nationwide bank (such as Bank of America) but am I better off staying where I am? Or, would I be better off doing what others are doing, which is keeping only a minimal amount (to pay bills) in my account, regardless of where I bank?

And what about c.d.'s and such? Are they a big risk also? Mutual funds?

Thanks.

Janis


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

The defaults in credit cards is also soaring.And car loans.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I must have inadvertently stumbled into the Rockefeller forums. I don't have enough in savings to worry about should the banks collapse. 

I don't keep large amounts of cash around, and if I did I certainly would never tell anyone. Almost all of my extra money goes into acquiring farm assets or paying off the farm mortgage. Having all the tools you need, breeding livestock, and heirloom seeds on a piece of property you own outright will get you a lot further in the face of economic collapse.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Ernie said:


> I must have inadvertently stumbled into the Rockefeller forums. I don't have enough in savings to worry about should the banks collapse.
> 
> I don't keep large amounts of cash around, and if I did I certainly would never tell anyone. Almost all of my extra money goes into acquiring farm assets or paying off the farm mortgage. Having all the tools you need, breeding livestock, and heirloom seeds on a piece of property you own outright will get you a lot further in the face of economic collapse.


True.. but the little bit I do have...I sure don't want to have to fight a bank for at the end..nor do I want to be limited on my withdrawals each day...I suspect the day will come where people will be standing in lines all day just to get the small amount allowed for that day in order to buy what supplies they need... that is not going to be me.. not to mention I am sure taxes will still always be due no matter what else goes on..and my property is all Ineed to survive but I have to keep it. I think you have to have variety... stock, live food, money, metals, and smarts...


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Janis,YOU have to make that choice about your RETIREMENT planning.

When Helicopter Ben says Bank Failures are coming I wouldnt be going there.

I would buy Gold and Silver which are the ANTI banks.It may go down but it will NEVER disappear unless you are robbed.

And that also depends on having a paid off home first.IMO.Others will say the heck with that,sit on metal and buy a ranch in a couple years for much less than todays prices.

Right now inflation is the name of the game,metal is the protection against inflation.

Dont worry,you will get plenty of opinions and none will agree because when its said and done you must make the choice.

But banks are my second worse choice,Wall Street would be the worst IMO.

A CD guarantees a loss as the interest paid is far below inflation and what it does pay will be taxable income at that.Should they devalue the dollar you are really fleeced.

Another nice thing about physical gold and silver? Buy it cash and leave no paper trails,NO CHECKS!.When you die it transfers to your heirs without a sound,it quietly sprouts legs and walks into their homes,no taxes,no probate.

Silver is up 60% PLUS in 6 months BTW.

Mutual Funds???? *EEEK!!!!!!!!*Worse choice of all! The stock market is failing big time,DO NOT put your money there!


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> Janis,YOU have to make that choice about your RETIREMENT planning.
> 
> When Helicopter Ben says Bank Failures are coming I wouldnt be going there.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything here as well.. :rock:


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## virtualco (Feb 3, 2006)

Pulled three months living expenses last July. Moved 401k from risky to money market and gov't securities.

And as texican said, when the balloon goes up use credit card (to be repaid by money I have) to buy items that will be in demand by those less prepared.

i.e. Propane tanks 20 lbs
Propane 1 lbs bottles 
Battery charger 
Bread maker
Rice cooker
Coleman lantern with spare generator
Coleman fuel funnel
Coleman mantels 
Coleman fluid
Coleman cook stove
Rechargeable flashlights or lights
Water purifying pitchers
Liquor/cigs
Toilet paper
Paper plates
Buckets	
On gallon gas cans
Garden implements 

...just to name a few.

Remember, the first to panic gets their money. So PANIC, now. 

Right on texican!


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

So....where does one buy silver and gold? And how does one keep one's five children from fighting over it if one is no longer around to referee?

Janis


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

I have money direct-deposited into savings with every paycheck. I try to keep about $300 - 500 in savings for emergency medical co-pays, car repairs, etc. Once I get over $500, I tend to take it out and make a purchase.

I have a few tubes of sivler American Eagles coins and several single 1/10 ounce gold coins. This is my "non-dollar" money.

Past that, you can do thinks intelligently bit by bit. For example, I bought some fuel cans and filled them with gas. When the gas gets below a half tank now, I fill the tank with the gas cans and take the cans to the gas station to refill them. Now I have enough gas stored to fill both my vehicles almost twice. 

You can start one thing at a time like this. Extra gas is easy to "sell" to your spouse since a gas crisis would mean that gas jumps in price instantly and runs out in a day or two. I know that I have enough gas to drive 250-350 miles on each vehilce and STILL have enough gas to make it to our bug-out location.

I sugest that you make a list of items for purchase, prioritize the list, and go down as money allows.


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## Trixters_muse (Jan 29, 2008)

I am glad this question was asked, I have been trying to decide what I should do and when. I don't have any big investments, my main income is deposited monthly and I use that to pay the bills and all my extra cash I make with my many little talents I reinvest into supplies I need and work I'm doing around the house leaving a little extra in a home safe to be used as/when needed.


In another thread concerning buying gold and silver a website was posted and I checked it out and will be buying my first bit of silver soon, but like everything else I have to buy a little at a time, just can't afford to go out and buy a whole lot at once. I did take Texicans advice (thanks!) in that same thread and bought rolls of quarters to look for older ones made with silver.

As far as using credit cards, I had little credit card debt to begin with and paid it all off, cut them all up but one major and one store one I keep for emergencies. So I guess it was a good thing I didn't cut them all up!

Janis, I keep a copy of my will with my valuables, and I only have two kids so everything is split down the middle.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

Janis Sauncy said:


> So....where does one buy silver and gold? And how does one keep one's five children from fighting over it if one is no longer around to referee?


I started buying my gold and silver off eBay, but a pattern developed that about 1 in 6 transactions started having problems - people taking forever to ship, not shipping at all, and one coin got stolen in transit. I took the names of a couple of the sellers I was having the most success with and stuck with them even if they were not the cheapest that day.

I have not purchased any metal in over a year, so I am afraid I can't be more help...


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

What money? My money is invested in paying off the real estate, stocking supplies, planting an orchard, animals, fences, and other things I need to survive now and after TSHTF. I rarely have more than a couple hundred in the bank, the rest is either spent or in a jar under a fence post in the form of silver coins. 

disclaimer: the coins are not really in a jar under a fence post so those of you who know where I live... please don't come over and dig up my fence posts. LOL


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

There is a philosophy of revolving debt that says that if the currency goes through the floor (super-inflation), then you should max out your credit cards on goods that can be sold or bartered. 

For example, I use my credit cards to buy 20 gold coins (1/10th ounce) at $100 each for $2,000. Due to inflation, the value of the dollar drops and the value of gold soars, so one month later each coin is worth $120 each. You sell 17 coins for $2,040 and pay off the credit card bill ... and still have 3 gold coins in your care.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Go to this site and read read read.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63

Im happy to say they have really cleaned up the site too,its now much more friendly and not a hangout for racist agenda masquerading as 'free speech'. Kudos to the people in charge for noticing the difference and greatly increasing their credibility as a premier metal site.

Everything you ever wanted to know about metal can be found there.

I cannot answer how your heirs react.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

You can check the status of your bank here.


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## CarolynRenee (Jan 30, 2008)

Less than a year ago, we pulled all of our stocks out of the market and even cashed out our 401K. My family thought we were crazy. It's hard to explain things to people (no matter how much we love them/love us) who cannot even imagine TEOTWAWKI.

I tried to explain that the money was better used to pay off mortgage & purchase much needed equipment than sitting in a 401K. When asked why I would pay the "penalty", I said I would rather pay a penalty now than lose all to inflation. I also asked them if they actually thought that keeping it in the 401K until I retired (which is WAY long away) was safer seeing as I could probably bet the farm on the fact that 1) the taxes on it in the future would be WAY more than now and 2) it would not outgrow inflation.

At least, that's our reasoning, and we're darn happy we did it when we did. Unfortunately, an insane amount was stolen from us in the form of taxes & penalties, but we are still satisfied with our decision. 

If you have "extra" FRN's to "play" with, I would suggest, as others have, to buy metals. We don't have any extra that would make it worth metals, but will put any extras into food storage, farm equipment & home protection. 

Take your money & RUN!


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

CJ:

Thanks for the link.

My bank got a 4-star rating.

Janis


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Janis Sauncy said:


> CJ:
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> ...


http://www.321gold.com/editorials/merk/merk022808.html

There was one further market that was developed to close the circle of financial sophistication: credit default swaps were created. Think of a credit default swap as a put option that will pay you if a company or a security fails.

With a perceived foolproof arsenal of financial tools, banks felt encouraged to carry a lot of complex financial products on their balance sheets. By buying insured securities, or by protecting against the default of an issuer, the banks reasoned, they could show stellar balance sheets. Banks are in the business of lending money; to do so, they require reserves. *That arsenal of financial tools, however, is at risk of turning into an asinine collection of toxic waste if the securities held are not as secure as they seem to be or if the credit default swaps are not worth the paper they are written on.*

One risk that few talked about until recently, is counterparty risk. Your insurance is only as good as your insurance company. Your credit default swap is only as good as the party you contract with to setup the agreement.

And that's where we are: the banks are* scared that a significant part of their reserves may be downgraded.* In practice, the market trades these securities as if they had been downgraded; but for the purpose of preserving capital ratios, *a AAA rating on paper continues to satisfy the banks' top regulator, the Federal Reserve (Fed)*. Selling these securities is not a preferred option for the banks, as many are - even in good times - illiquid; and in the current environment, a fire sale would cause serious harm to the banks holding the securities.

However, banks are on an increasingly shaky foundation. Add a few ingredients to set the stage for more volatility in financial markets.


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## highplains (Oct 5, 2006)

If I remember the correct players in this catastrophe, didn't Bank of America buy Country Wide Financial to keep it from going down the tubes.
So... I wouldn't trust them with large quantities of cash right now, but I am sure they would accept it gladly!

Pay off as much as you can on debts, and make the pennies squeak again.
As for a safe place to put money - hmm ... everything is a gamble, but there are opportunities everywhere. You just need to look for them.




Janis Sauncy said:


> Ok, I have what might be considered a "dumb" question: if the "large" banks are already failing, or are "getting ready" to fail, is a small bank a better place (if there is one) to have your money?
> 
> The bank I currently bank at, I guess, could be considered "regional," as opposed to nation-wide, or even state-wide. Heck, they don't even have a branch in my current county of residence; I've been doing my banking by mail since moving here 2 1/2 years ago.
> 
> ...


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## lo6xzm (Aug 23, 2006)

I've always been somewhat of an anarchist so if it's going to hit the Fan...I would rather it be sooner than later. My gut tells me it's going to be much later if ever. America could get a whole lot worse than $3-4 dollar gas. Can't wait for the rebate check. Don't panic. Hey the police are still getting paid, and the prison population just got reported upward this week. But I digress...


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

I also plan on putting some of my next paycheck into metals. By that, I mean that I plan on buying a good pressure cooker and a small garden tiller. I would be looking to trade produce or canned goods for some chicken, pork, lamb, or anything else that I can't grow myself. As for that shiny yellow stuff that everyone else thinks is so valueable, no thanks.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I may be wrong... and I'm sure if I am, someone will straighten me out...

If the system crashes, and exists no more, wouldn't you rather have a boatload of debt (and the things that debt buys) instead of a boatload of credit (cds, 401k, bonds, etc.) that is suddenly worthless???

In the 'real world', imho, debt is an evil mistress.

In a TEO world, debt is just a bad memory, and all of the credit (money in the bank that now rots in a vault) a worse memory.

I have no debts. I have credits. If the system crashes, my fiat currency savings are gone. I'd rather my situation be flipped, and have several times what I have saved, in my possession, and owe some now defunct financial institution.


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## tn_junk (Nov 28, 2006)

I spent a lot of money last fall buying "stuff". Bullets, primers, powder, brass, survival goodies, freeze dried food, etc.
Figured it would be better sitting in my basement as goods than sitting in the bank where it could disappear overnight.
Many folks thought me crazy. Now they ain't so sure.

alan


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

Janis Sauncy said:


> CJ:
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> ...


Mine too. The bank I owe money to, on the other hand, only has a 2. What happens to outstanding loans if a bank collapses? Who acquires the debt?


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

Texican, in theory you would be correct, that it would be better to have debt and goods, than to have CD's, etc. However, there has been some conjecture that anyone who is in debt when the house of cards comes down may end up more or less in 'debtor's prison', working to pay off what they owe. Not likely to actually end up in prison, as there are too many people in debt to manage that, but very likely to end up in some sort of indentured servitude. That, of course, is if the people holding the paper can sort out who actually owns what.

Kathleen


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

galump said:


> I spent a lot of money last fall buying "stuff". Bullets, primers, powder, brass, survival goodies, freeze dried food, etc.
> Figured it would be better sitting in my basement as goods than sitting in the bank where it could disappear overnight.
> Many folks thought me crazy. Now they ain't so sure.
> 
> alan


You might still be crazy. The jury is still out on that one. If so though, you and I are both together in the crazy department. 

At least we'll be well-armed crazies. That ought to make everyone feel better.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> However, there has been some conjecture that anyone who is in debt when the house of cards comes down may end up more or less in 'debtor's prison', working to pay off what they owe. Not likely to actually end up in prison, as there are too many people in debt to manage that, but very likely to end up in some sort of indentured servitude. *That, of course, is if the people holding the paper can sort out who actually owns what.*
> Kathleen


If they actually care !


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

highplains said:


> If I remember the correct players in this catastrophe, didn't Bank of America buy Country Wide Financial to keep it from going down the tubes.
> So... I wouldn't trust them with large quantities of cash right now, but I am sure they would accept it gladly!


And look at what the Fed and Congress did as repayment for them stepping in.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

It might be very difficult to walk away from that debt.I dont think I'd run up credit cards before a crash but then again,I truly dont know what their options are now to recover that unpaid debt.

Something tells me the powers that be are going to side with the banks and not the people.

Im going with debt free as your best course of action.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

You still have to pay property taxes.They arent going to take barter.Nor will the drug company when you need antibiotics for the pneumonia that is killing you.Nor will the hospital for that operation you need.

Better have some cash around in an economic collapse or you may be dead or your wife or child dead for want of medicine.That happens all over the world right now.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> Texican, in theory you would be correct, that it would be better to have debt and goods, than to have CD's, etc. However, there has been some conjecture that anyone who is in debt when the house of cards comes down may end up more or less in 'debtor's prison', working to pay off what they owe. Not likely to actually end up in prison, as there are too many people in debt to manage that, but very likely to end up in some sort of indentured servitude. That, of course, is if the people holding the paper can sort out who actually owns what.
> 
> Kathleen


What I wonder is, say I have 10K in debt, will that debt be reindexed upwards with inflation... 

Say in March 08 the debt is 10K...

A year later the original debt is still 10K, but it takes 200$ to buy a loaf of bread... Inflation has made the goods bought with the 10K worth many multiples of what it costs when the bills come due. (I've read about post WWII Germany, and present day Zimbabwe, and bales of cash needed to buy simple cheap goods)... And the 10K thats squirreled away in CD's will buy a bag of groceries.

+++++++++++++++
So... gamble on some luck... go into debt to the exact amount of the level of savings in a bank... (btw... mine is 4 star).... Now I have the goods... If the debt purchasers come calling, I point them to my savings account, with my blessings. If they don't come calling, I have the goods, and some digital numbers in an FDIC approved acct...

My main source of cash for property taxes and whatnot would be natural gas... The well is on my place, and I own mineral rights now.... Later, I'll own all of the rights... For me to crack the pipeline valve, something valuable would have to come my way...

Any kind of servitude would not be accepted kindly...


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Debt is not indexed upward with inflation unless your interest rate goes up to match. Isn't that what they've been doing anyhow? I constantly get offers for preapproved credit cards with astronomical interest rates. (They make good litter for the chicken coop, BTW.) I don't know how anybody can pay those rates.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

I haven't pulled money, but I've also not been building the account. It's used to pay for household needs, groceries, medical bills, etc. So, it's slowly dwindling by the week until it will be empty.

That's just the expendable funds account. The main account which pays all the bills is not the one I handle.

Call it small funds diversification. It can't hurt to have a smorgasboard of resources at your disposal. It's a very personal choice based on many factors, some of them predictable, some of them a gamble.

I kind of see any possible up coming economic crisis as a big gust of wind that scatters seeds in many directions. Some will sprout, some will be carried far away, some will get blown into a creek and swept down the stream.

I don't think anyone knows for sure how well their preps and plans are going to carry them through, but the attempt toward saving oneself is always better than sitting in wait for FEMA.


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## Deb862 (Jun 22, 2005)

This is something we are really worried about of late. We have been looking to buy a property and therefore have our very large downpayment in the bank and are very concerned about it. We don't have much choice and have to leave it in the bank if we are going to hopefully buy a property this year. We are very worried....


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

I see a market opportunity. Safe deposit boxes outside the banks.

Anyone have some venture capital? :rock:


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

mightybooboo said:


> Better have some cash around in an economic collapse or you may be dead or your wife or child dead for want of medicine.That happens all over the world right now.


But which currency? Euro? If the dollar crashes, and I mean utterly crashes here, then people will start using a foreign currency in day-to-day life. They will do this because hyper-inflation will make the paper nearly worthless. What cost $500 the day before the crash might cost $5,000 several weeks after the crash. Stashing 20 $100 bills in the Fish Oil tablet bottle in the freezer is not going to help in that situation.


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## DoubleD (Jan 28, 2007)

I like to spread my risk. I have supplies and goods sufficient to support us for many years. I have a garden that produces all of our vegetables and most of our fruits - and the know how to keep doing it and doing it well. I have low tech tools for all important tasks. And as for money:

I have money in the bank - enough to cover six months of mortgage payments, 1/2 year of property tax, and 1/2 year of insurances, electricity, garbage services, and phone. 

At home... I have cash - exactly the same as the above amount in the bank.

I have investments - retirement planning and emergencies - nothing huge - but a nest egg.

I have a variety of foreign currencies - not much but about $100 to $200 each in Canadian, Australian, and Euros.

I have junk silver coins and regular current coinage. Couple hundred of each.

I also have "trade goods" that are above and beyond our families supply needs - things that keep easily but are priceless in hard economic times or a SHTF situation.

Will I pull everything out of the bank? Nope.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Debt is not indexed upward with inflation unless your interest rate goes up to match. Isn't that what they've been doing anyhow? I constantly get offers for preapproved credit cards with astronomical interest rates. (They make good litter for the chicken coop, BTW.) I don't know how anybody can pay those rates.


A buddy of mine buys $2,500 in metal on credit. The credit card has a 25 day grace period, so he sets up auctions on eBay to sell the metal on day 24, thus allowing him to pull the money from his PayPal account to pay the credit card. Yes, he has lost money some months, but with the way metals have been going up, most months he wins.

If TSHTF, the price of metal will jump so much that he will not have to sell it all to make the money he needs to pay it off.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> But which currency? Euro? If the dollar crashes, and I mean utterly crashes here, then people will start using a foreign currency in day-to-day life. They will do this because hyper-inflation will make the paper nearly worthless. What cost $500 the day before the crash might cost $5,000 several weeks after the crash. Stashing 20 $100 bills in the Fish Oil tablet bottle in the freezer is not going to help in that situation.


I guess the best answer is have liquid wealth in more than one form.I have FRNs and metal.Whats going to happen to the fiat currencies? I think SOMEWHERE along the line they will collapse (not that the FRN hasnt been collapsing for close to 100 years,inflation is collapse) but who knows when?

I will point out that in the Argentina collapse Banks took Gold at world market prices and exchanged it for local currency.Since thats the most recent example we have,I would expect the same to occur here.They are INTERNATIONAL banks after all that did this,ie,Citibank and such.Dont know if they did that with silver,anyone know?

I know the metal will have some value,the FRN's at some point likely will not.At that point they will be exchanged for some other Bogus fiat and life will go on.At what rate? Again,who knows,it will depend on how people choose to value them.IE,the official exchange rate and the 'black' market rate,ie,the true rate,LOL.

It all depends on what,and if,we collapse to,nobody truly knows short of the men behind the curtain and they sure as all get out wont be letting us in on the secret.

IMO.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> A buddy of mine buys $2,500 in metal on credit. The credit card has a 25 day grace period, so he sets up auctions on eBay to sell the metal on day 24, thus allowing him to pull the money from his PayPal account to pay the credit card. Yes, he has lost money some months, but with the way metals have been going up, most months he wins.
> 
> If TSHTF, the price of metal will jump so much that he will not have to sell it all to make the money he needs to pay it off.


That works until you have an August 2007.

And the banking cartels are very good at manipulating metal prices though lately their stranglehold has been loosened by private investors and their holdings.

The futures markets time and again show that metal prices can be squashed just long enough to save the bankers and slam the futures investor.

The guy holding and owning physical really doesnt care about the short term (few day,week long) scams.The speculator does,they get eaten alive.

Im not going to speculate on it with borrowed money.Thats me.Some do and make out.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Back during the Great Depression of the 20th century, the men who usually jumped to their deaths were the ones who speculated on borrowed money. Very dangerous practice.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Just a note, that if your thinking about pulling your IRA or 401K or any tax-exempt money stashed.
Big penalty, from 30-45%.
Kinda got ya by the ......, well you know what.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

Notice that *I* am not doing it with him...


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

I feel for you, we are in the same boat. We hate the thought of taking on debt for a mortgage, but nor do we trust large amounts of cash in the bank anymore, while we continue to save.



Deb862 said:


> This is something we are really worried about of late. We have been looking to buy a property and therefore have our very large downpayment in the bank and are very concerned about it. We don't have much choice and have to leave it in the bank if we are going to hopefully buy a property this year. We are very worried....


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> Just a note, that if your thinking about pulling your IRA or 401K or any tax-exempt money stashed.
> Big penalty, from 30-45%.
> Kinda got ya by the ......, well you know what.


10% penalty plus income tax. It depends on where it pushes you on the tax tables for income.

They will allow hardship withdrawals, say if you're facing a possible bankruptcy. Not sure of the penalties for withdrawals in that instance.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

Very good question. I don't know what to do at all.

I got some money when my mom died. Still don't know exactly how much, but it's a good amount. I also have her condo and a couple small lots in FL to sell, and a few hundred shares of stock in a major insurance co.

First thing I'm doing is home repairs that need doing. I figure that if I get everything fixed up, and the economy goes sour, at least I won't have to worry about fixing that stuff anymore. Then I'm paying off all of our loans.

People tell me not to pay off our mortgage. They say it's good to have the tax deduction. But we rarely go above the standard deduction anyway. 

My mom and I had this argument many times -- she insisted upon keeping money in the bank while at the same time floating credit card debt (never that much, but still...) and a home equity loan. Said she'd gotten angry with my dad often because he'd pay everything off and leave them with zilch in the bank account. I have to side with my dad on this one. I think it's stupid to have money in the bank while you owe money. You can never earn in interest more than you're paying in interest. And besides, if you don't have a loan, you don't have loan payments, and as long as you don't spend more than you have been, you will soon have money in the bank again.

Now, there ought to be a little left over after that. What to do? I want to have enough money to put my kids through college in a few years. But I don't need an official kids' college investment fund for this, I just need a place where the funds will be safe and maybe earn some money. If you don't trust banks - and I don't, really - what to do, then?

I thought maybe I'd stash enough in a fairly safe investment to cover tuition for the two of them, at least in a modestly priced state college. 

And for the rest, I thought maybe land would be the best choice.

Starting with the 16 acres behind us. It's an excellent location, top of a ridge, wonderful view, but there's no good access to it from the road. Of course, since it is adjacent to our property, that is not a problem if we wish to use it ourselves.

Or, some acreage somewhere else. I figure the housing market might be in a slump, but good arable land will always be worth something, if only from a survivalist's point of view. If nothing else, we can move there and grow things.

How about it?


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

edayna said:


> Very good question. I don't know what to do at all.
> 
> I got some money when my mom died. Still don't know exactly how much, but it's a good amount. I also have her condo and a couple small lots in FL to sell, and a few hundred shares of stock in a major insurance co.
> 
> ...


A couple of things... I would definitely think about the land,but one thing.. investigate those insurance shares and make sure you know who they are with and watch how they are performing.. there are some insurance companies having real difficulties rights now. Beyond that, I would second the idea of finding a safe investment for your kids tuition... there are some accounts ( I think 525 accounts?) that you can invest in and keep adding to tax free.. you might want to check that out..


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

CarolynRenee said:


> I tried to explain that the money was better used to pay off mortgage & purchase much needed equipment than sitting in a 401K. When asked why I would pay the "penalty", I said I would rather pay a penalty now than lose all to inflation.
> ...Unfortunately, an insane amount was stolen from us in the form of taxes & penalties, but we are still satisfied with our decision.


Our thinking runs pretty much along the same lines.

Yes, you pay 10% penalty for early withdrawal, plus you get taxed at something insane like 30-40% so you pretty much lose half your 401K when you decide to liquidate it. 

If you liquidate your 401K you're essentially betting that 
- You can invest in something that will earn that 50% back and then some
or
- Getting 50% now is better than losing it all when your 401K goes bust or gets frozen
or 
- The dollar is going to devalue so much that goods purchases with 50% of your 401K now are worth more than goods purchased with all of your 401K later.

About the ONLY thing this economy is good for is paying off the property. Yes, home values are going down but if you don't need to sell, you can just sit tight and that big 100k mortgage balance will be less than the cost of a new motorcycle after the economy tanks.

So I question your notion that "the money was better used to pay off mortgage" because the mortgage is not going to go up like everything else. The money is probably better off being spent on canning equipment, log splitting and cutting equipment, gardening and livestock setup, etc. The prices on those things is just going to keep climbing. T-posts alone are through the roof and you might get more if you buy T-posts and fencing now with half your 401K money than to wait and buy T-posts and fencing with all of your 401K later. IF the 401K even exists then.

But the mortgage isn't going to get more expensive. Pay it off in the future, in worthless dollars. 

The only reason to pay off the mortgage sooner rather than later is if you're worried you may not retain your income, which is a real and valid concern given the current economy.


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## FalconDance (Feb 4, 2007)

Well, I guess I'd have to _have_ some money before I could worry about when I'd pull it or where I'd put it :stars:.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

******* said:


> Someone asked this in another thread and I didn't see an answer, so I am going to ask it again.
> 
> When are you pulling your money out and keeping it as cash?
> 
> How much are you keeping as cash? A couple hundred, a couple thousand?


Pulling your money out is pretty much a waste if your going to convert it to something else besides cash. $1000 in the bank is just as worthless as $1000 in your mattress. If there is a run on money the value of the cash is whats going to change, not the access to it. While gold can be a good investment it is my opinion a poor option for preparedness. who you going to sell the gold to? When you need a loaf of bread to survive what are you going to do with a gold coin worth $100 or $1000. Who's going to make change and what good is gold at that point in time when food and survival is the most important


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> Pulling your money out is pretty much a waste if your going to convert it to something else besides cash. $1000 in the bank is just as worthless as $1000 in your mattress. If there is a run on money the value of the cash is whats going to change, not the access to it. While gold can be a good investment it is my opinion a poor option for preparedness. who you going to sell the gold to? When you need a loaf of bread to survive what are you going to do with a gold coin worth $100 or $1000. Who's going to make change and what good is gold at that point in time when food and survival is the most important


I personally foresee having cash on hand being especially crucial in the initial stages of a SHTF. What happens if they impose a "holiday" and you cannot withdraw any of your money? Or you can only withdraw a certain amount a day? At this point merchants will still be taking cash, and I doubt they will have superinflated their prices at this point. There might be some gouging, but I think prices would be excessive, not impossibly high. While it is nice to say that you already have everything that you could need at your location, I bet there are always a couple more things that you could use.

We certainly don't have a lot of money, but I think that puts us in a position with even less leeway compared to someone with more money at their disposal. At the very least, people who are used to paying for everything with their debit (or credit  ) card should consider having enough cash on hand to get through a few days. (and longer than that would be better.)

Kayleigh


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## morrowsmowers (Jun 14, 2004)

Madame said:


> Mine too. The bank I owe money to, on the other hand, only has a 2. What happens to outstanding loans if a bank collapses? Who acquires the debt?


Check out the scales on those ratings - 5 is the worst, 1 is the best. My bank got a 3.

Ken in Glassboro, NJ


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

There are 46 TRILLION dollars in derivatives which are an unregulated form of securities.

Obviously Banks are holding a lot of these.They cant even put a true value on these because the banks just 'said' they are worth this much.Nobody knows their TRUE values.

Now these Bank ratings you all are looking at are valuing these securities as if they are AAA. The ratings system has already been shown to be a sham thru conflict of interest between the rating agencies and those who pay them,the Banks.If the insurers have their ratings dropped from AAA these securities have suddenly lost a lot of their book value.I dont know how you rate something AAA when they are unable to finance continuing operations and are begging for billions of cash inflow,but Moodies is still doing just that.

Point being,especially the major Banks have terrible exposure to these securities,the ratings are questionable at best.

These ratings you all are talking about hold little true value as their risk exposure is truly unknown,which even the Banks admit is the case.

Dont get warm and fuzzy over these 3-5 star ratings.They are based on hugely damaged/unverifiable securities valuations being treated as AAA.They arent. Subprimes were sold as AAA,see a problem there?


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

morrowsmowers said:


> Check out the scales on those ratings - 5 is the worst, 1 is the best. My bank got a 3.
> 
> Ken in Glassboro, NJ



5 STARS is the best... a 5 "rating" is the worst. A bit confusing.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> Pulling your money out is pretty much a waste if your going to convert it to something else besides cash. $1000 in the bank is just as worthless as $1000 in your mattress.


Did you mean pulling your money out is a waste UNLESS you're going to convert it to something besides cash? For the most part, I agree. Cash in your house or mattress isn't worth any more than cash in the bank. However goods purchased with 100 of today's dollars could be worth 1000 of tomorrow's dollars.




> If there is a run on money the value of the cash is whats going to change, not the access to it.


Okay, all I know about "a run on the bank" is what I saw in Mary Poppins  and they DID close the doors of the bank and refuse to let anyone take out their money. Of course, that was Disney so maybe totally fantasy.

Having some cash on hand is a good idea, in the event of a Katrina. Those folks had money in the bank but couldn't even use their credit or debit cards because the communication lines to the banks were down. 



> When you need a loaf of bread to survive what are you going to do with a gold coin worth $100 or $1000. Who's going to make change and what good is gold at that point in time when food and survival is the most important


Personally I'd barter for a loaf of bread if I couldn't make it myself. I'd barter some fruit or eggs or labor. The gold is for big ticket items, like paying off the mortgage when the job goes away, or for a team of horses and implements.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Also IF its trading,thats why you have junk silver coins.Right now a silver dime is 1.40 or so.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080304/bs_nm/citigroup_gulf_dc_3;_ylt=Alwjs.0c3v5s8saZe6ZpsLsE1vAI 

DUBAI/NEW YORK (Reuters) - Citigroup Inc (C.N) shares sank to their lowest level in more than nine years on Tuesday after a prominent Middle East investor said the largest U.S. bank needs to raise more capital and an analyst projected a $15 billion mortgage write-down.

Shares of Citigroup, a Dow Jones industrial average (.DJI) component, fell $1.75, or 7.5 percent, to $21.34 in morning trading. The shares had not traded below $22.47 since November 1998. Through Monday's close, they had fallen 53 percent in the last year.

Speaking at a private equity conference, Sameer al-Ansari, the head of Gulf investment agency Dubai International Capital, said Citigroup may need "a lot more money" from outside investors, following billions of dollars of write-downs tied to subprime mortgages.

New York-based Citigroup in January slashed its dividend 41 percent, and since November it has raised some $30 billion of capital from investors including Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal.

"It's going to take more than that to rescue Citi," al-Ansari said. Dubai International Capital manages $13 billion of assets and has invested in HSBC Holdings Plc (HSBA.L) and India's ICICI Bank Ltd (ICBK.BO).

Citigroup suffered a record $9.83 billion fourth-quarter loss tied mainly to mortgage write-downs.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

Yeah... that's just huge. It's the 7th most held stock. If Citibank goes down, the repercussions will be huge.



mightybooboo said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080304/bs_nm/citigroup_gulf_dc_3;_ylt=Alwjs.0c3v5s8saZe6ZpsLsE1vAI
> 
> DUBAI/NEW YORK (Reuters) - Citigroup Inc (C.N) shares sank to their lowest level in more than nine years on Tuesday after a prominent Middle East investor said the largest U.S. bank needs to raise more capital and an analyst projected a $15 billion mortgage write-down.
> 
> ...


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

mightybooboo said:


> Also IF its trading,thats why you have junk silver coins.Right now a silver dime is 1.40 or so.


I have stuck with american eagle silver bullion coins because it says, "1 Ounce Silver" in nice big letters. I have always been afriad that if TSHTF, I would try to barter with a bag of old dimes telling the person, "No, really, these have silver in them!" and the guy would just say, "Sure it does, buddy, now give me something real for trade."


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Diversify.

THEY,whoever they are,say Eagles are good bets.But the old saying dont put your eggs in one basket,or one form of currencies.Junk,bars,coins,rounds,different mints,different metals.

If metal is trading in the scenario,somebody will understand what is what.

I dont worry,in crisis the black market pops right up. The 'currencies' will be well understood.

That is if it isnt TEOTWAWKI.That happens all bets are off.

But who knows,we are all just speculating from where we stand.

If you are going economic crash your metal will be just fine.Sleep easy on that one,history is on your side.


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## charles burns (Mar 21, 2006)

HSBC, Europe's largest bank made pre tax profits of 24 billion in 2007 - even after the loss of 17 billion from it's HSBC Finance division due to bad US housing debts.

"Its performance in the ever-strengthening markets of China, India and Hong Kong proved a more-than-ample buffer against its U.S. sub prime woes."

A profit of 91 million by HSBC North America was considered exceptionally weak.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/business/business-hsbc.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin

Hands up if you really think this bank is in trouble?


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## charles burns (Mar 21, 2006)

Commercial banks and savings institutions insured by the FDIC reported a decline of 27.4% in earnings at the end of 2007 compared to their record high earnings of 2006 - their earnings at close of play 2007 - 105.5 billion.

"The said insured members raised more than $29 billion in capital during the fourth quarter [2007] to bolster their ability to absorb losses."

"The industry as a whole is coming off a golden period of record profits. Because of this financial strength, the overwhelming majority of banks and thrifts remain well-capitalized and profitable." 

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={9FFB95F1-9067-498B-B8F0-718D8D9982B2}


I can't find any performance figures for money stuffed into mattresses or projected performance estimations for money packed into cookie tins and buried under the crooked tree that was hit by lightning.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Why do they need 29 billion if they are so healthy? Could it be the 45 TRILLION in derivatives have some problems?

Somebody is holding them.Will be interesting to find out just who that is,it isnt known yet.Its a BIG secret for now,they arent talking and they dont have to under the current rules.

Aint that just a ducky way to do business? Dont reveal your risk positions or even know their true values,how nice.

And Wall Street is pumping their value,uhhh OK,I trust Wall Street to be fair,open and unbiased,its only their patooties on the line,eh? After all,they only brought us all these bad securities.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

And now the news is the private equities market is in trouble.

When I get the chance, I'm going to have to look up this derivatives thing. Still wondering what a credit default swap is, where supposedly there is 45 trillion about to what? 

Confused. :stars:


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

generally does a good job of covering what's going on in the financial scene. might try there to understand derivitives, private equity, etc.

--sgl


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