# Kangal/Boerboel mix puppies as pets??



## earthkitty

I'm always checking rescue sites, mainly because I love dogs and you never know what you might find, right? I currently have an old, big Lab and a Newfoundland, and we are most likely going to add a couple of LGD's when we move the sheep to the back pasture. I'm consistenlty torn over fenced in with sheep vs. protecting the whole farm (which is not fully fenced, so there is my conundrum), but I suppose that is another thread. 

So, my point...now that my kids are older, I can have a giant breed rescue, so I was perusing the Big Dogs Huge Paws rescue site. They have a LOT of LGD breeds! I sent them an email to see if they adopted out for the breed's intended purpose, and they said no, they only adopt out as house pets, and they recommended some LGD rescue organizations. 

I figured they would say that, but here's my question...they have the parents and 7 puppies that are Kangal/Boerboel crosses, Mom is Kangal and Dad is Boerboel. Does it not seem foolish to adopt this kind of dog out as a house pet in general? I think people will adopt them, think oh how awesome a giant protective dog, give it no real job and then there will be trouble.


MMalak and Goatress, opinion on this? This cross just seems dangerous to be adopting out in this manner.

http://bigdogshugepaws.com/adoption


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## Goatress

This is very interesting...because Andrew Johnson in WA state specifically breeds this cross. He is 'notorious' for crossing Kangals on everything (including non LGD breeds), and has Great Danes, Boerboels, you name it.... I admit he has handsome dogs but this cross I see as a potential timebomb....in the wrong hands.....a disaster. Although I do know someone (I think on this board as well) who has a pup out of this same cross from Andrew, and at six months old is becoming an EXCEPTIONAL companion for his daughters. So I cannot say, the cross won't work. But you can bet the people who did this - and I'm sure its not Andrew's dogs - or I hope its not - probably bit off more than they could chew.... Potential here for very highly aggressive dogs that could cause much harm if not in responsible experienced hands. I know what my Kangal is capable of - instant death. Is the person ready to deal with that? Break up bloody dog fights? Kangals mature slowly....keep that in mind.... Aggression may not rear head till after a year old. Boerboels - another breed that is a challenge.... There you have my input....


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## earthkitty

Thanks! I have sent fair warning to this rescue group, I do hope they know what they are doing. The LAST thing I want is a bunch of news stories about how these "dangerous" breeds are killing things, only because they have been put in homes as pets and turned violent due to boredom and lack of training.

I know a lady who has a friend who decided she wanted to spend money on having pets that none of her friends had. She had two Maremma pups shipped over from a working farm in Italy, and then kept them as untrained house pet show pieces. One of them bit her nose off, literally. Idiot.

This rescue group operates in the midwest and don't have a presence in WA, so I wouldn't think these dogs are from the man you know. No telling though, as they do transport all over.


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## citxmech

Hi EarthKitty!

My wife and I are indeed the proud owners of one of Andrew Johnson&#8217;s Kangal/Boerboel crosses [See olympicdogs.net] which is employed in a largely "house pet" capacity. I could probably write a short book on Daisy&#8217;s qualities at this point but here are some initial observations.

Both the Kangal and Boerboel breeds seem to display a broad variation in temperament in addition to their physical appearance. Regarding the litter my wife and I picked from, both of the parents were noted for their temperament with stock. While performing our temperament tests, we noted that the most laid-back male in the litter was more dominant than the most dominant female. Judging from one of Andrew&#8217;s other crosses we met by chance at a training/socialization class, this tendency seems consistent. IMHO, it&#8217;s safe to say that generally males are going to be larger, and more assertive/dominant than females. Also, as with most dogs, runts will generally be more aggressive as well. We were looking specifically for a service dog candidate (mobility assist) that would also be good around our small homestead including our cats, chickens, neighbor's children, the occasional UPS guy and the general public. In addition, we wanted a dog that could act in both guard and watch capacities and have the inherent discretion to differentiate between all of these diverse roles. We knew this was a tall and largely unrealistic order, but so far, Daisy seems to be doing a better job than we could have wished for. 

Having said that, I would hope any adopters understand that they will soon have a large, highly athletic, and energetic puppy - Daisy is now 7 months old and over 28" and 90lbs. With these breeds there is a distinct danger that someone who hasn't done their homework could end up with more dog than they are comfortable with or than suits their lifestyle. Not that I believe that any of those dogs couldn&#8217;t make a decent pet/companion animal &#8211; but employing a LGD in this capacity means a BUNCH of work and expertise, and our success with Daisy has largely been due to non-stop socialization, on-going training work, and regular exercise (i.e. daily, rain or shine). If anyone is going to consider one of Grim and Indie&#8217;s pups, I would highly recommend they personally assess the pups and meet the parents if possible, before deciding. [These are not Andrew's dogs btw.]

I also would suggest they spend some quality time on the Olympic Dogs site reading the descriptions of the Kangal and Boerboel breeds, and &#8220;Genghis&#8221; (Andrew&#8217;s choice Kangal x Boerboel cross). His 1-10 breed rankings are pretty spot-on. Interestingly, our dog seems to exhibit strong qualities of both breeds rather than a &#8220;toning down&#8221; of either. For example, in Daisy, the Boerboel tendency to constantly seek approval and stick by your side, and the Kangal tendency toward independence, did not really &#8220;blend.&#8221; Even when she&#8217;s being stubborn and wants to do her own thing, she wants to do her own thing near you &#8211; which at least makes keeping tabs on her a little easier! Having said this, she does respect limits very well if they have been established clearly and applied consistently with lots of positive training &#8211; which we feel is essential to establishing a strong relationship with one of these dogs in a non-farm environment. She shows incredible impulse control for a pup her age, and moderates her behavior and play depending upon the size, species and demeanor of her playmate. We'll see how she is after her first heat!

Having said all that, these are not pups you can leave unattended in the home, or regularly crated for extended periods of time, though Daisy does spend some of her time in her crate each day, so that'll be an issue for any family with two working adults. These dogs need to either be with someone in their family, or outdoors in a large secure area with a job to do. Also people need to know that Kangals are diggers. 

Speaking of Genghis, when we were touring Andrew&#8217;s facility, I wanted to see this dog in particular, as this was the only adult Kangal x Boerboel cross he had at that moment. Upon being introduced, Genghis looked my wife and I up and down, ignored my wife, shoulder-bumped me off-balance, peed on my leg, and then walked away as if to say: &#8220;I&#8217;ll tolerate you because that&#8217;s what the boss wants, but that&#8217;s the only reason.&#8221; So I do understand that we could've ended up with a pretty hard dog. While Genghis looks mostly Kangal, our Daisy seems to show a bit more Boerboel - her temperament seems to follow. As soon as I have picture posting privileges, I&#8217;ll be sure to put up some pics. 

If anyone is interested in this particular cross in this capacity, they should feel free to PM me if they&#8217;d like, or just post their questions here and I&#8217;ll do my best to answer them in a timely manner. In short, I think these dogs can make great pet/companion animals, but they are only for dedicated and committed owners.

Thanks for the post!


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## Goatress

citxmech, thanks for piping in because you are indeed the person I recalled talking about this cross, but couldn't remember your forum name, lol! Oh and Bill and Kate my friends down the road from me, of Coban Collars, just built your dog a collar. 

Again thanks for your input. Very valuable. And thanks for clarifying they weren't Andrew's dogs. I tried buying a Kangal from him once. Won't delve into details but the deal went south. It turned out my friend in MT got him, lol. Andrew even named the dog "Nevada" because he almost came here with me but nope.... Anyhow I had a failed attempt at breeding my kangal girl to him last year but she didn't cotton to the big boy...grin. But he has just sired a great litter for my MT friend out of one of his biggest kangal bitches and they are beautiful pups.

What you say could be said for LGD's in general. They take committed owners willing to take the time and love and patience to bring them up right, whether it be for a working LGD or as in your case, family guard and companion.

It is most frustrating for me to talk to people on a daily basis almost, who expect too much too soon from their LGD's. Instead of approaching this as a lifelong commitment and partnership, so many people think of LGD's as an instant fix for their livestock predation problems.

Your pup is lucky to have such a caring and responsible home. Congratulations and when you get that collar, post some pics of your baby showing it off!


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## thaiblue12

EarthKitty I doubt that rescue will listen. They think all big dogs should be house pet/couch potatoes. 
They also hear what they want to hear, and take in certain dogs and ignore people who contact them about placing a dog. My friend had a large St. Bernard type stray show up and she kept trying to get them to take him but they would never return her calls or emails. 

In cases where they are too strict or too uneducated I omit things on an adoption application, such as fencing, or in this case, I would state sure it will be a house pet. People are trying to give them a good home, farm or otherwise and rescues are making it harder to adopt a dog then to get married, have a baby or buy a car. 

The dogs lose out when rescues are more like hoarding then actually adopting them out.


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## citxmech

Thanks for the kind words Goatress! Funny you mention collars. We're on our third now in 5 months (an extra-large that's about at its upper limit) so your timing is impeccable. Iâll definitely be looking into your friend's collars (I wonder if they could/would make a wide leather padded Martingale type?).

Daisy is our first non-rescue/stray â and a big part of that tough decision was that we knew we wanted a bigger working-type dog and didnât feel confident at this point in rehabilitating somebody else's unfortunate disaster. Also, we wanted an intentional mix not only for the temperament, but for the genetic health benefits. 

I think the biggest adjustment we've had to make conceptually to accommodate our LGD cross has been to really âpartnerâ with the animal. LGD really are quite a bit different than the other more domesticated canine breeds that we've dealt with. They don't automatically subordinate themselves, for lack of a better term. We find that we're most successful when we try to understand where she's coming from and what she needs to see us as stable, respect-worthy, and a source of generally good experiences. For instance, on walks I'll split the time I give her a loose leash to sniff a bit and do her thing, and choke-up around groups of people. If all I did was drag her around on a 1ft lead with a choke collar I wouldn't get the co-operation I get now when I ask for a tight heel to negotiate past a crowd at a bus stop for instance, and she certainly wouldn't look forward to walks. 

Another behavior we've encouraged is for her to lay down when children or puppies approach. It really puts the everybody at ease because she's so large and then she gets rewarded with positive attention for her physical restraint. I shudder to think of a new apartment-dwelling owner of a LGD rescue trying to Alpha-roll one of these dogs to establish their âpack leaderâ status a-la Cesar. 

Regarding the large breed rescue outfits â that's really good information. I would've thought that these folks would have their act together a little more on these breeds. It's unfortunate because these dogs really need to have an outdoor area to guard to be happy.


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## TedH71

Heard a comment somewhere. Not sure how much truth there is but was told Boerbels don't live long because a lot of them are put down due to extreme aggression.


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## citxmech

TedH71 said:


> Heard a comment somewhere. Not sure how much truth there is but was told Boerbels don't live long because a lot of them are put down due to extreme aggression.


Aggression toward people, or other animals/dogs?

All the Boerboels I've met have been complete lovers - but they are a protective breed, so proper introductions are a must with visitors. I have heard that dog aggression can be an issue - but early socialization should help with that - I probably wouldn't plan on bringing an unfixed male down to the dog park, however. As far as prey drive with stock - it's substantially higher than a traditional LGD, but not unmanageable as long as you let them know who they're supposed to leave alone and provide lots of supervision [this can be a long process btw]. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are a number of dogs out there in shelters that have been abused or owned by incompetent handlers that will have issues. Boerboels don't tolerate being chained up or crated alone for long periods for instance, so anyone considering a rescue should perform a full temperament evaluation and be prepared for some rehabilitation work. Of course - these are powerful dogs, so having a handle on how to command respect and enforce discipline through presence and redirection is essential.


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## lasergrl

I have experience with two boerboels (im a vet tech). One had to be tranqued completely for all vet work. The other was indeed euthenised for aggression. He started attacking family members.


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## citxmech

lasergrl said:


> I have experience with two boerboels (im a vet tech). One had to be tranqued completely for all vet work. The other was indeed euthenised for aggression. He started attacking family members.


Do you know any of the backstory on the dog put down for attacking family members? Boerboels tend to bond tightly to _their_ people, with any aggressive/protective tendencies reserved for outsiders. A real, full-on attack, would put the target in the hospital for sure, so I'm wondering if there isn't some more to this story. 

Regarding the vet care, was it fear-aggression, or dominance-based? As socialized and friendly as our dog is, if she's going to get poked and prodded near her more sensitive parts at the vet, we will muzzle her, just to be on the safe side. She does get growly and snappy when they take her temperature, or do a vaginal exam for instance - at home, however, we don't have any problem handling her anywhere.


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## terradura

Hi Folks!

Nice discussion here, and particularly interesting to us because we have a littermate sister of citxmech&#8217;s Daisy. In fact, we are the ones who ordered the Coban collar (it is beautiful and incredibly sturdy). So, nice to meet you all and be able to say that your webpages (Goatress) and posts here and elsewhere really helped educate us as we searched for our dog. We do not have livestock, though we don&#8217;t rule it out at some point. We do have two daughters (9 and 11 years old) and some property (an acre where we live in southern California and 40 acres in NE California). What we wanted in a dog was one that (1) would be strongly bonded to family, (2) would not chase deer or run off to visit neighbors, (3) would be protective of family and property, (4) would be genetically healthy, and (5) would have a pleasant disposition. After months of reading on websites, we came across Andrew Johnson&#8217;s site late last summer. In reading his material and talking with him on the phone, it sounded like the kangal &#8211; boerboel cross would be a good match. Most of the litter was sold at that time, but we bought the runt and named her Bessa. She is 8 months old today. I believe that is too young for a final verdict, but I can give a report on her so far.

Bessa is not as big as her sister Daisy. She is 26&#8221; and 80 lbs. She absolutely loves and is devoted to our daughters. I suspect this is at least partly related to Andrew having young children who play with the pups born there. When I brought Bessa home from the airport she was not feeling well. It was clear the travel experience scared her. But as soon as she saw our girls she perked right up and played with them. When our kids play in the arroyo behind our house, Bessa follows them and stays right with them. In fact she does this with my wife and me as well, sometimes so close it is hard to walk. If we are working on a project, she finds a spot to lie down and watch us. We have only had a few glimpses into her protective nature, but it seems to be strong. If she observes anything unusual around our place she charges toward it with her deep bark. Our pup, like citxmech&#8217;s Daisy, wants to be as close as possible to her people, but still do her own thing. This is not a dog that sees pleasing her master as its own reward. I have made progress in training her, but it has taken a lot of time and patience. The motivator is food. I used little scraps of meat to teach her sit, down, stay, come, heel. And these commands are not solidly obeyed yet, even though she knows what they all mean. Each command is evaluated, considered, and maybe obeyed. Fortunately, I have been able to work at home a lot and take time to work with her a couple times a day. Despite their imposing features, these dogs (at least ours) are sensitive compared to other dogs I&#8217;ve worked with (German Shepherd/Boxer, Shar Pei mix, etc). I think citxmech hit the nail on the head in describing a &#8220;partner&#8221; approach with these dogs. They can be stubborn, but they are sensitive too.

Some other observations. When we take her on walks, Bessa is eager to meet people we run into along the way. We&#8217;ve taken her to the dog park in town a few times and she is very happy to meet all the people there, but is pretty reserved around the other dogs. Each time she warms up a bit more to playing with the dogs, but the impulse is always conflicted by her desire to stay close to us. Bessa does get along famously with our other dog, a 45 lb female mixed breed. They rough house throughout the day. Otherwise, Bessa has been an exceptionally calm puppy. She will play fetch with us, but it is a very relaxed affair in which she watches the ball roll to a stop, then she walks over, whacks it with her paw, then picks it up and brings it back (rather proudly). No frenetic obsession to chase or play. Our biggest issue is that she is afraid of cars, no doubt traumatized by her shipment to us when she was 12 weeks old. With LOTS of patience and moving forward in tiny increments each day or week, she is getting better. She will willingly get in the car, but she does not enjoy the ride. The key to our progress has been letting her chew on a large bone while we drive around. She is also afraid of cars driving by and for that reason she has resisted going for walks. But when my daughters go along, she is happy and prances right along. She is getting better, but it is a lot of work.

So, to this point, it seems like she is turning out to be just what we wanted. As mentioned earlier, she is devoted to our girls. Bessa is calmer and more independent (stubborn?) than any puppy with which I&#8217;ve had experience. She also studies everything she encounters, from crows flying overhead to every object in the house. She is generally confident and even-tempered. Taking all this into account, I still would not make a blanket recommendation of this cross as a family pet. Beyond the breed characteristics, I suspect that the nature of the parents is tremendously important as well. And we have had the benefits of lots of space, another dog for our kangal/boerboel to play with, and someone who is able work with her a couple times a day and see to her socialization. Those are good things for any medium to large dog, but I suspect especially so for this kind of dog.

Thanks again to all for the helpful discussions, and it is fun and quite interesting to hear about Bessa&#8217;s sister.


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## citxmech

Dear Terradura,

Wow - What a small world! Itâs great to hear from you about Bessa â My wife and I remember her distinctly â she was a total cutie (and quite spunky as I remember)! 

Itâs interesting that you mention her uneasiness around cars and reluctance to go on walks. Daisy is exactly the same way. She still doesnât get too excited about going on walks. She used to be very anxious around traffic, headlights reflecting off the puddles (of which there are many around here in Seattle!), and car rides are still not her favorite thing either, even though they usually take her to fun places. Weâre not too far from Andrewâs farm, maybe about a 1-1/2hr drive, so we were able to bring her home in our car - it was late when we made our return trip and she slept in my wifeâs lap most of the way, so I donât think she has any bad associations from the trip. Iâm wondering if itâs maybe a breed/mix thing. Iâve heard from at least one source that Boerboels tend to get sick in cars, and I think Kangals just donât do well in any over-stimulating environment â I know that in Daisyâs case, exposure to lots of moving things and noise, like those present in urban areas, gets her pretty worked up. To combat this, we also feed treats after encountering anything that spooks her. Now sheâs much better and is making steady improvement. Iâve even brought her on walks through downtown Seattle, and sheâs done really well. I think the key here is that weâve built up trust. 

Regarding the dog park, what I found seems to work well is bringing her in and initially keeping her on-lead so I can run interference if a large group of dogs tries to âgang-sniffâ her. Sheâs confident one-on-one, or even two-on-one now, but any more dogs than that, and she gets defensive. After sheâs met any of the dogs interested enough to stop by, Iâll then let her off the lead and from there on out sheâll do great. Usually, no more than one or two dogs come in at a time â so once the initial greetings are made, the remainder of the visit tends to go smoothly. If she comes across a particularly grumpy dog â sheâll usually stay out of range enough for things to calm down. The one thing we do have to watch for is dogs that are nippy and growly toward her face. That kinda sets her off â and at her age, I want to make sure Iâm situated to intervene if she corrects another dog, as I donât want her to go overboard.

We completely agree that Andrew's kids did us all an amazing favor in the nurture department,  Daisy just LOVES kids too. 

Itâs great to hear from you and we look forward to hearing more about Bessa!


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## Rock

terradura said:


> Some other observations. When we take her on walks, Bessa is eager to meet people we run into along the way. Weâve taken her to the dog park in town a few times and she is very happy to meet all the people there, but is pretty reserved around the other dogs. Each time she warms up a bit more to playing with the dogs, but the impulse is always conflicted by her desire to stay close to us. Bessa does get along famously with our other dog, a 45 lb female mixed breed. They rough house throughout the day. Otherwise, Bessa has been an exceptionally calm puppy. She will play fetch with us, but it is a very relaxed affair in which she watches the ball roll to a stop, then she walks over, whacks it with her paw, then picks it up and brings it back (rather proudly). No frenetic obsession to chase or play. Our biggest issue is that she is afraid of cars, no doubt traumatized by her shipment to us when she was 12 weeks old. With LOTS of patience and moving forward in tiny increments each day or week, she is getting better. She will willingly get in the car, but she does not enjoy the ride. The key to our progress has been letting her chew on a large bone while we drive around. She is also afraid of cars driving by and for that reason she has resisted going for walks. But when my daughters go along, she is happy and prances right along. She is getting better, but it is a lot of work.
> 
> So, to this point, it seems like she is turning out to be just what we wanted. As mentioned earlier, she is devoted to our girls. Bessa is calmer and more independent (stubborn?) than any puppy with which Iâve had experience. She also studies everything she encounters, from crows flying overhead to every object in the house.


 Couple of observations,
1st I would be very careful at the dog park because no matter what happens it is always blamed on the bigger dog (or pit bull or bulldog), with the dogs protective instinct, it may take issue to other dogs being to rowdy around your youngsters.
Next the walking past cars, I'll give a little back story of my issue with something similar and how I worked it out.
I have a dog that I take fishin. Often we will park the truck and walk on rail tracks to get to the good spots. Well I found him start acting funny enough that I would put him on a lead, and sure enough, within 5-10 minutes a train would come past and he would drag me back from the track. _(This dog has pulled over 10,000lbs in comp so if he wants to go)_ After I quit being so dense and started thinking like a dog, I realized he could hear the train through the rail well before there was any other indication.
Here is how I fixed it, used his instinct to my advantage. When he started acted up, I put a lead on him, put down my poles and watch for the train. When I spotted it I would place us so that I was between the train and him and it was coming towards the front of us, Walk and ignore the dog after a few weeks, I let him in-between the train and I still facing the oncoming train, Walk and ignore the dog. Then we went back to step one but with the train coming from behind (I cant get to the fishin hole till the train pass anyhow LOL) then step 2 with him between the train and I. Now this is a multi- rail set up, he will hear the train in the rail. If I am on the track the train is on he will move me off to the side and stay between me and the rail until the train has past.
Might help your thing with the dog and cars. Remember cars have lots of things that squeal & whine that we cant even hear that can be deafening to the pup.


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## lasergrl

citxmech said:


> Do you know any of the backstory on the dog put down for attacking family members? Boerboels tend to bond tightly to _their_ people, with any aggressive/protective tendencies reserved for outsiders. A real, full-on attack, would put the target in the hospital for sure, so I'm wondering if there isn't some more to this story.
> 
> Regarding the vet care, was it fear-aggression, or dominance-based? As socialized and friendly as our dog is, if she's going to get poked and prodded near her more sensitive parts at the vet, we will muzzle her, just to be on the safe side. She does get growly and snappy when they take her temperature, or do a vaginal exam for instance - at home, however, we don't have any problem handling her anywhere.


The one that was put down, they were pulling into the driveway of their home, and the dog jumped out, ran at the adult daughter that lived there, and grabbed her arm. There were other escalating instances that I don't recall. The other one I would say it was dominance based. The dog was fine until the vet looked in his ears, then bam, four puncture wounds to the arm. The owner took offense to the idea of a muzzleso it wasn't put on before exam. I asked them if I could put one on before the exam even started. The dog seemed OK but being familiar with the breeds tendancies I had asked to use it. Once the muzzle was on her would gator roll throwing urine and feces and anal glands all over. Just easier to tranqu for sure.


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## citxmech

Lasergrl â thanks for the reply! Wow â Sounds like the owners of the dog with vet issues really dropped the ball on early socialization â and were clueless about their dogâs needs on top of that. Very sad. Having had a dog with extreme fear of the vetâs office before, we try to take our dog in for weighings about twice per month â just so more visits are pleasant and coupled with lots of staff-interaction and treats as opposed to poking and prodding. Even with that â as I said, sheâll still guard against violations of her personal space â hence the muzzling. IMHO Every dog should be socialized to a muzzle enough that they will accept it â but this becomes more important as a dogâs weight goes up the scale, of course. Freaking-out in your office like that is totally unacceptable for everybody involved.

Regarding the other dog â It almost sounds as if it didnât recognize the daughter - either that or there were some extreme dominance challenges being worked out that the folks werenât equipped to handle. Also very sad.

I think the most important thing Iâve learned having a large, dominant, dog is how to redirect challenging behavior to ensure and maintain respect as the alpha without resorting to physical aggression or challenging the dog back on its own terms. When a dog challenges the handler for dominance and the human responds in kind, an escalation has been invited. At that point, the options are to put the dog in itâs place through physical dominance â which may not be possible without a level of force that is abusive (potentially hurting both the dog physically, and the respectful relationship you are trying to nurture), or to surrender to the bad behavior, which will only aggravate the problem further down the road. 

Put another way, we try to put our dog into a position where we âencourage herâ to make the âright decisions.â This way, we create the positive outcomes we need, and at the same time reinforce the behavior pathways we want repeated in the future. An example of this is when we get dominance behavior at the front door for instance (i.e. wanting to barge out first in front of the people) I will prevent her from exiting the door by closing/blocking it, tell her to âsit,â and just stand there and wait. So rather than pushing her back physically, or shoving her butt down into a sit, I will wait for her to elect to submit to my authority/pack rank. The key is having the patience to wait her out. I just hold her lead firmly but with a little free play, so sheâs not totally restricted, but she canât disengage either. This way, if she elects to struggle â sheâll exert her own stress/correction rather than me doing it. As time goes on, she has learned (pretty quickly) that I wonât give up, and if she wants to get on with her day, sheâs going to have to do what I ask. Consistency is key. Now, I can usually get her to make those âgood decisionsâ with a look or body posture alone.

Regarding Rockâs post â boy is he right. Iâve sure learned to respect Daisyâs senses. Thereâs a whole world out there that she is aware of that I can only see through her behavior. If she perks up â no doubt thereâs a reason. Funny thing is, she also seems to ask for appreciation of her good work. Many times sheâll be outside doing her guarding thing, and sheâll scratch at the door, and when I open it, sheâs moved back into her âKangal guard poseâ (tail and ears up, intense forward posture) and sheâll look over at me as if to say, âjust wanted you to know Iâm busy, alert, and doing a good job.â Iâll always come out and stand by her for a minute or two, see if I can figure out what sheâs keying in on, and give her some rubs/praise. 

When you try and understand what your dog is experiencing and trying to communicate to you, it can take your relationship with your dog to a deeper and much more rewarding level for the both of you.


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## Rafek

Sorry to dredge this post back up. I felt that this community should know another side of the Andrew Johnston Kangal/Boerboel Crosses.

I purchased a dog from Andrew in spring of 2013 1/2 boerboel, 1/4 kangal, 1/4 dogo we named him Bagheera. I told andrew I would be keeping the dog with me at the gym I was the head coach for and he would be around kids and other dogs regularly, Andrew told me it would be good advertising for him. 

When he was 6 months old a friend of ours liked him enough to buy his half brother from a litter just a couple months younger. That dog was named Hooch he 1/2 kangal 1/4 boerboel 1/4 dogo. We met another dog from the same breeder named Mouse at the dog park she was 1/2 boerboel, 1/4 kangal 1/4 dane, and we all started meeting up with our dogs. All have since had to be put to sleep, Mouse passed away to today. All because of aggression. 

At 9 months Bagheera became so aggresive with other male dogs he could not be taken to dog parks or walked off leash, at 105 lbs of very muscular dog my wife could no longer walk him at all. At almost two years old he bit a friend of ours, then snapped at our daughter three weeks later, we consulted 3 behaviorists who all told us based on his history and behavior there was was no safe way to keep him or rehome him we had him put to sleep. Additionally Bagheera had demodex and recurrent Knee sprains. 

At the same time Hooch had also become uncontrollable with other male dogs and a couple of weeks before Bagheera bit, Hooch bit his owners roomates 6 year old son, Hoochs owner worked with a behaviorist until even after we put Bagheera down but a few days after Bagheera went down Hooch went after two girls who were personal training clients of his owners for no apparent reason. He was put to sleep. Hooch also had weird coat problems.

Mouse, was actually the earliest to have issues she became extremely aggressive to small dogs at 6 months old, but she never became people aggresive, however she ended up having to be put to sleep today because she almost killed her owners other dog, a dog the owner had adopted from a friend because it was the only dog who Mouse was still comfortable around. Mouse also tore her ACL at 18 months. 

I have also been told of at least 3 more dogs from this breeder who were likely put to sleep because of aggression through friends in the breeding and rescue networks. 

I don't know if this is bad mix in general I do know that this breeder is breeding very large, powerful, extremely aggresive and unhealthy dogs and selling them as pets to families with small children.


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## TedH71

No, the breeder is solely responsible for breeding crappy dogs. Not all of those breeds are bad dogs to cross breeding wise. Just that the breeder probably knew she had bad dogs prior to breeding them which shouldn't have happened. I know nobody is going to take her to court but eventually someone needs to tell her not to breed her dogs and to get them neutered/spayed.


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## wiscto

Wow. Yea. I don't believe in breed banning, but I'm guessing that's where we're headed.


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## bluemoonluck

Genetics plays a huge role in the behavior of a dog. The whole "it's not the breed, it's how you raise them" isn't really accurate. I've been "in" dogs since I was 19, worked at a kill animal shelter for several years, was a licensed veterinary technician, and I've been breeding Miniature Bull Terriers for 10 years now.

My personal observation is this: a dog with bad temperaments in his DNA, raised in a super fabulous home with all the proper training, has about a 50/50 shot at growing into a decent doggie citizen. A dog with good temperaments in his DNA, raised in a terrible environment with no training/socialization/etc, has about a 50/50 shot at growing into a decent doggie citizen. 

When rescues get in a dog of unknown background, a dog who is slightly decent in temperament can go either way when put into a good home. If it's one of the dogs with a good genetic temperament, he'll likely make a drastic improvement in personality and be a stellar citizen in no time. If he's from bad genetic temperaments, he's likely as good as he's going to get :shrug:

My personal program focuses on temperament, health, and conformation. If I have to compromise on one of those three things, conformation is the loser. I'd rather have a dog who will never be a huge show winner but who is healthy and has a spot-on awesome temperament than a dog that wins left and right but who either is nasty or who is going to drop dead of a heart condition at 5 years of age. When other people get snotty with me about my dogs, I smile big and tell them "yes, his bite is undershot, but I've never seen a dog drop dead from an off bite"...and then I walk away.

So if you have a breeder who is breeding with little to no regard for temperament or health, and they're breeding large breed dogs (which are prone to orthopedic issues in the best of circumstances), even if those dogs are sent to stellar homes you're rolling the dice. Dogs who have any kind of aggression in their DNA are time bombs, and the older they get the nastier they get. The aggression is often worse at around the 2 year mark, that's when they hit their prime. Dogs who are aggressive prior to the 2 year mark are really tough to work with, because it's only going to get worse 

I hope that everyone who purchases a dog for any purpose does their homework and is patient. A good dog from the right breeder is worth waiting for....the dog is going to live for a decade or longer, so a wait of a few months is better than spending the next 10 years dealing with a mess of a dog IMO.

At least half a dozen times I've had people want a puppy from me (they did their homework and my reputation speaks for itself), but when they found that I didn't have a pup for them **right this very second** they went off and got a dog from another source....only to end up emailing/calling ME for help because that dog was a mess. I had one person call me from the airport, they had imported a dog from a shady breeder in Europe (who had a pup available right then) and the 8-week old pup was so aggressive that they couldn't get it out of the crate it had been shipped in  Or they go with a breeder who charges a bit less than I do, then when the dog starts to exhibit genetic behavioral issues the breeder blocks them and refuses to offer advice or any help at all. You're not just buying a dog, you're buying the person/people behind the dog....choose carefully.


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## GrannyCarol

I'm with you bluemoonluck. My parents ran a dog boarding kennels when I was a kid and bred and showed dogs. I was active in dogs since I was 19 and bred and showed them until I was in my 50's and still have dogs. I've been a groomer since I was 20 as well. I'm in my 60's now and still groom. Temperament is HIGHLY hereditiable and ought to be the #1 thing on any breeder's mind. It can also show up generations down the road. 

I've seen way too many puppies that exhibit definite temperament characteristics at birth that stayed with them their whole lives to think its all in training. The dog's eventual personality can be formed by socialization and training, but an inherently unstable temperament can't be fixed and its a lot of work and stress to try. Some dogs are ruined by their environment, some are born ruined. I've seen and worked with both. As a breeder, if I felt a dog was going to be unstable, I put it down and I readjusted my breeding program. It's only fair to the dog, who would be miserable its whole life, trying to be fit into situations it couldn't handle. Now a stable dog that has been mishandled will rapidly re-adjust to good handling and be fine. A dog that was never socialized as a puppy will probably have a hard time becoming a happy pet, sad to say. I firmly believe that breeders are largely responsible for their dogs being of good temperament and socialization as puppies should give a dog a good start at being a happy dog throughout its life.


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## Rafek

Thanks for the support guys, I hope anybody who see this will learn for our mistake.


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## fluttervale

I've been involved in (conformation) dogs for almost 20 years now, and my experience is similar to Bluemoonluck.

Dogs inherit their temperament. What happens with that is the result of the dog's experiences. I had a very flightly, jumpy dog. Socialized the heck out of him. He always jumped and recovered within a second, but without that socialization he'd have headed the other direction quickly. A littermate did and was euthanized.

I don't have a horse in the race, but I feel it is incredibly irresponsible to breed large dogs with difficult temperaments and a propensity for aggression, and place them in pet homes. The bulk of pet homes are "experienced" in Labradors, Shepherds, or dogs too small to cause major damage. A LGD is not a Labrador. It may as well be a different species. It is no different from deliberately selling a Jersey bull to someone who has only raised miniature goats and also does not have a remotely secure pasture to put him in, and BTW that bull is going to be the 8 year old's 4-H animal.


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## wiscto

There a lot of trends in the dog world that tick me off. Cities banning Pitbulls, people fighting pitbulls, people training dogs for "personal defense" by training them to attack people on command whether the owner has real control of the dog or not. Police need that training, the rest of us really don't. Most of these breeds had good instincts for protection long before they were bred and raised for aggression. Pitbulls are some of the happiest, loving dogs on the planet, but they will defend their families if necessary, so training them to think aggressively and be prepared to launch themselves at people on a moments notice is just stupid. It creates a dangerous situation. The term "bite work" makes me want to throw punches unless we are talking military, police, and security professionals with legitimate needs and a sturdy process of training/elimination for both human and dog candidates. I don't know what we can do to stop this garbage, but we have to stop it before useful breeds start facing bans in the United States the way they have in some European countries.


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