# Tell me about the food stamp program???



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

As a Canadian, ( my wife has quite a few american friends though), I always hear about your food stamp program. Sounds like something from the great depression days. I googled, but I found limited sites that made any simple sense. 

So what is the program about and how does it work? Is it needed? Is it effective? Is it based on need in theory?

As the supposed great bastion of free markets, why does the US have such a program? Does it not discourage free thought and a get up and go attitude? Or am I missing something?

I simply ask, as the "farm bill" gets passed, the program is the VAST portion of the bill itself.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

To receive Food Stamps you fill out an application and provide proof of income, bank records, proof of the $$ you pay out in bills each month. This includes SS checks, child support etc..

The amount of Food Stamps monies that you receive depends on those figures, plus the number of people in your house.

If you have too much available money, you don't get Food stamps.
And if you have some money the amount of Food Stamps you receive are low.

You receive a credit card type of card and each month a designated amount is put on that card on a certain day.
When you have spent that allotted amount of money for the month, then there is no more on the card.

To hear people talk you would think that the amount received is astronomical.
It is actually quite small.

And to hear people talk you would think that everyone that receive food purchasing assistance is living high on lobster and steak. Nope.
A majority of people that receive the monies really and truly do need it to put food on the table.

Food Stamps only pay for food items.
Sadly, due to lobbying by large AG/Food Producers, chips, processed food etc.. are included.

There is another program, WIC (Women, Infants, Children) that only provides monies for healthier food choices.. veggies, cheese, milk etc...


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## JamieCatheryn (Feb 9, 2013)

It's supposed to be a safety net to avoid letting people starve when their income is too low for their family size or non existent. For many, it's a temporary help in a time of need. For others yes it does discourage "free thought and get up and go attitude", to the extent that people become experts in navigating the red tape and spending a lot of time getting all the welfare they can rather than working at a job.

I am pretty frugal with my shopping, folks with no income and my family size get a little more food stamps than I spend on food and household goods (my household goods are mostly oil to make soap and vinegar to clean with so that would count too).


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

"Food stamps" are a blast from the past. They used to mail out coupons in different increments like $1, $5, or $10. You gave the grocer the coupon just like you would cash. There was widespread fraud because they were anonymous and could be sold, traded, etc. So now the benefits are delivered on a card like a debit card. 

The real name of the program is SNAP - Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. I think what most people overlook is the "supplemental" part. This was never intended to be one's entire food budget but a supplement. I read somewhere that the top benefit possible is $597 a month. Well that is one whale of a supplement! But then I hear of others who are very, very low income like widows living on social security, and they only get like $20 a month. 

The program is ripe for an overhaul. I think there is just as much fraud with the cards because no ID is required. They don't do a good job of following up and making sure the recipient still qualifies over time. There was a news story about a million dollar lottery winner who was still collecting SNAP benefits.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I always thought of it a a farm aid program expanded to include retailers they were feeling left out under the old commodities program.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

chickenista said:


> To receive Food Stamps you fill out an application and provide proof of income, bank records, proof of the $$ you pay out in bills each month. This includes SS checks, child support etc..
> 
> The amount of Food Stamps monies that you receive depends on those figures, plus the number of people in your house.
> 
> ...


 Don't forget if your income goes up, like this year there was a COLA increase in SS, well a portion of that raise is deducted from the monthly Food Stamp allotment a person gets, and now over the years some like my self have gone Down from just under 100 to now it is at 50 bucks well that is not much when you take into consideration the cost of FOOD now days.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

I don't know much about either program. (Never been on it or WIC.)

The programs are set up so depending on your income, assets, & bills, you or your family won't starve.

As with any government program it has problems monitoring the system.

I know of one family who was on WIC and the husband worked, wife worked one day a week. They had 2 kids. They would get baby formula and then sell it on the internet. I'm not sure how they qualified for it, as not only did the husband work, but they owned a duplex that they rented out, as well as an apartment above the garage. 

Do these programs discourage get up and go attitude? In my opinion, yes it does! Why bother getting a job, or a 2nd job when the government will provide some things to you for free? 

As an example of the family I mentioned above, the husband and wife divorced. The woman & kids now lives in an apartment that a family member owned and was renting out, but allowed her and the kids to move in rent free. The woman still only works 1 day a week, not because she hasn't had other job offers, or offers for more work, but because she only WANTS to work 1 day a week. Why work when you have family or the government to provide for you?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> As a Canadian, ( my wife has quite a few american friends though), I always hear about your food stamp program. Sounds like something from the great depression days. I googled, but I found limited sites that made any simple sense.
> 
> So what is the program about and how does it work? Is it needed? Is it effective? Is it based on need in theory?
> 
> ...


Snap is a needs based program designed to purchase the poor mans vote with the rich mans money... very much like our other social programs such as SS, "welfare", (whatever name it uses these days), heating assistance, HUD housing programs etc. They are quite effective... democrats have been winning elections since the early thirties using these wealth redistribution programs.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

farmerDale said:


> As the supposed great bastion of free markets, why does the US have such a program? Does it not discourage free thought and a get up and go attitude? Or am I missing something?


We haven't had free markets in this country in a very long time...and progressively less and less free. The fact that we have a farm bill in the first place is a good indication of this.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Truth is it is both a program that assists in covering basic living expenses for those who need it and a program subject to widespread abuses for those willing to take advantage. 
It is not well controlled as it is massive in scale and, unless a person is extremely greedy and stupid, its misuses are not really penalized. And there are built in exemptions to ignore things like 401k and other resources in determining benefits. 
And it is used as a standard for many other benefit eligibilties so eligibilty to food stamps might lead to subsidized utilities, rent, etc- which is one of the favored things of indoor pot growers in our area. The utility users are subsidizing $5000 per month utility bills for people who simply do not report their pot profits.
One thing is sure, it has spawned an industry of social workers and lobbyists and advocates who are always demanding more. And equally vitriolic about requirements for verification standards lest it dissuade someone from filing for them. They immediately trot out the selected example to prove their point. And the media dutifully reports it. And it just keeps snowballingz creating generations of people who think it is a normal life to scam the governmentz that everybody does it.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

WOW! From my point of view, thanks to your replies, it looks like quite a nutty program. If it was based completely on need, or for the folks who simply CAN NOT work, that is one thing:

But if it is enabling those who COULD work, but do not, that is another thing. Hmmmm.

So does the US have a regular welfare program too? Canada has a welfare program that is quite ridiculous as well.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Snap is a needs based program designed to purchase the poor mans vote with the rich mans money... very much like our other social programs such as SS, "welfare", (whatever name it uses these days), heating assistance, HUD housing programs etc. They are quite effective... democrats have been winning elections since the early thirties using these wealth redistribution programs.


 The local paper decided to do a story on this a few years back. Seems that what they found out, when interview the head of the county agency, was that the typical new recipient was an elderly widow who was in pretty tough shape, financially. Often a family member, or member of their church, literally had to drag the old woman in by her sleeve to get them some help. The chain of events is that the bread winner, bill payer, and love of their life, who "took care of everything" has recently passed. The husband's pension stops about the same time he hits the floor. the SS is reduced and somebody figures out that the woman is "doing the right thing" by diligently paying all the bills with money that she doesn't have, while not buying enough food and skimping on prescriptions. 

Sorry if you find such assistance distasteful, or suffer from other delusions about why we have a safety net, but without SNAP, SS and Medicare we would be no better than China, or a lot of third world nations, that find their less fortunate citizens to be a disposable nuisance. The people of this nation are pretty clear that such behavior isn't acceptable and the MAJORITY clearly have no interest in abusing our elderly, disabled and extremely poor to accommodate your extremist ideology.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

farmerDale said:


> WOW! From my point of view, thanks to your replies, it looks like quite a nutty program. If it was based completely on need, or for the folks who simply CAN NOT work, that is one thing:
> 
> But if it is enabling those who COULD work, but do not, that is another thing. Hmmmm.
> 
> So does the US have a regular welfare program too? Canada has a welfare program that is quite ridiculous as well.


And that is always the hitch- deciding who can provide for themselves versus who simply won't. It is really an impossible thing to do.


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## WV Farm girl (Nov 26, 2011)

There are those who need it and those who don't. My sister with 3 sons was told she didn't qualify in WV because she worked part time ($6k/yr) and got child support of $200/month. Well below poverty level but didn't qualify supposedly. 
Then my DH worked with a man who was married with 1 child and they got over $700/mo in food stamps! 
The math doesn't add up. Some ppl cld really use the assistance and don't get it and others get it and don't need it.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

farmerDale said:


> WOW! From my point of view, thanks to your replies, it looks like quite a nutty program. If it was based completely on need, or for the folks who simply CAN NOT work, that is one thing:
> 
> But if it is enabling those who COULD work, but do not, that is another thing. Hmmmm.
> 
> So does the US have a regular welfare program too? *Canada has a welfare program that is quite ridiculous as well*.


How so? It's not easy for anyone to get on welfare or any other social assistance programs in Canada. There has to be a proven real need. The welfare system's time limits that are imposed on recipients makes it not possible for there to be 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation welfare families. There's no such thing as food stamps or other numerous assistance programs and benefits that USA and some other countries have. I'd be interested to know what aspects of Canada's welfare program you think is ridiculous.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

While others have presented their opinion of the SNAP program to answer the questions in the original post, I'd like to address another issue that I have seen with Social Service programs like SNAP, WIC and welfare cash payments, daycare assistance, etc...

In the late 90's, I worked as a manager in a call center. Many of my employees were single moms. They worked 32-40 hours per week and still couldn't make ends meet due to the high cost of daycare. As a result, all of them received daycare assistance. Some received foodstamps and/or WIC. Without the daycare assistance, they would not have been able to work at all. 

In order to continue to receive the benefits,they had to re-certify for that assistance 2 or 3 times per year. The appointments were set by Social Services and they were always in the middle of the work day. This wasn't just one appointment to re-certify for all services, but separate appointments for each one. If you receive 3 services, then you might have to miss work 9 times out of the year. With WIC, there were added child health checkups in addition to the re-certifications, so that might add an extra 5 visits per year into the mix. These same parents also had the same issues that other parents had like regular doctor appointments and absences due to illness for themselves and their kids. 

We always excused the absences but they were an inconvenience from a business standpoint. I always felt that one major improvement to the system would be to do all of the re-certifications at the same time. As a manager, it always felt as though these employees were less likely to receive promotions due to their absences. I think that this one change would make it easier for employees to use the services that they need and still work their way up the employment ladder to the point where they no longer needed the services.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

Here is a chart, showing the maximum benefits by family size. This would be for a family with no income. IF the family had an income of $900 a month, the benefits drop dramatically, for instance, the benefits for a family of 4 with $900 a month income would be $362 a month.

I'd like to point out that people CAN buy seeds, and even fruit trees with food stamps, and thereby have a future source of food.

View attachment 23055


Data and chart from http://www.massresources.org/snap-benefits.html


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## fatrat (Feb 21, 2009)

It's typical of so many government programs, while good intentioned it ends up filled with fraud, waste and abuse. Originally food stamps looked like money and circulated just like cash. You could buy anything with food stamps even though they were supposed to be just for food. Now it looks like a credit card and each state has there own card and program funded by the federal government. It's a big political thing now where each side accuses the other of being wasteful, extremist, bigoted, hateful, racist, etc..... I suppose some people, though probably few, really do need it. To tell you the truth I've been watching healthy, strong, young people using it for so many decades it just makes me wonder if it's really a program thats time has come and gone. I do know some that really did need it. I was in the military and I knew soldiers using it because back then they were paid very little, much less than today. They really couldn't feed their bunch of kids on a low ranking enlisted salary. Some of the new guys would come into the military at E1, E2 or E3 and have three, or four kids already and they would be making about $4-$6 an hour. I think we do need some sort of social welfare for those who need it and are overlooked by their families, neighbors and churches but I think the size of the government welfare programs including food stamps have gotten way to big, so big that fraud, waste and abuse have become almost the norm.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

A person could write a book on the food stamp program in the US.

One bored evening, I looked around on the website for food stamps. If a person applied online, there were tons of questions asking about their income and assets. As an interesting side note, if a person owns stocks, securities or investments, they are pretty much barred from getting food stamp benefits.

As another side note, there has been a great deal of controversy over the food stamp program. In years past, there was a TON of abuse, and I suspect that there still is.

What is different about the food stamp program is that as taxpayers and consumers, we see it firsthand at the grocery stores. You never hear many people complain about NASA wasting $700 million dollars on a failed rocket, about the Army wasting $1,200 on a hitch pin (when a $20 pin from a farm store would work), or the state spending $280 million on a project that benefits very few.

But again, we see it first hand every time we check out at the grocery store. Sometimes, it is so bad that it wants to make you puke right there in the store. Often, you see people with carts literally overflowing (and piled on top) with every high-end, expensive, brand name items, and when you do, often these are the people whip out a food stamp card to pay for it, and then pay for thee cases of expensive beer and a carton of smokes with cash.

As a taxpayer, the abuse really gets under my skin, especially when you know that the young person could have easily gotten a job for less money per hour ($14), but says they "are holding out for a management position at $16 an hour." All the while, an 81 year old widow I know who is on Social Security, draws just $61 a month in FS.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Paumon said:


> How so? It's not easy for anyone to get on welfare or any other social assistance programs in Canada. There has to be a proven real need. The welfare system's time limits that are imposed on recipients makes it not possible for there to be 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation welfare families. There's no such thing as food stamps or other numerous assistance programs and benefits that USA and some other countries have. I'd be interested to know what aspects of Canada's welfare program you think is ridiculous.


 Just like in this country, if YOU do not need it, it is all fraud! When people give all of there ,,they abuse the system examples, I wonder how many report the abuse. I think if you are sure there is cheating going on and do not report it, you are as guilty as the food stamp cheaters. It is always easy to moan and groan but much harder to help fix the problem!


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

People abuse everything. I can guarantee you that there are people in this forum abusing drugs, alcohol, and food. 
That's right, some people here are 300 pounds or more, and as much a substance abuse as a crack head. 

So what? Some people abuse the system, but not everybody. Do you hate alcohol because you know somebody that is an alcoholic? How about opiates? Tobacco? Bacon? 

Just because you know someone who abuses the program don't mean the program is bad. You should turn them in. Personally, I don't think anybody would walk away from a $14 an hour job, $560 a week, $2240 a month, just to get $189 a month in food stamps.


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## Jokarva (Jan 17, 2010)

The local news did a story recently about food stamp fraud, they interviewed people who had no qualms about admitting ( on camera no less) that they regularly sell their food stamps. I thought that wasn't possible any more with the new cards....silly me. 

They interviewed a DHHS supervisor and asked if she knew food stamps were being sold...yes, she did. Did she know there was active trade going on in the local craigslist (where they found their sellers)...no she did not. They would have to 'look into that'.

Widows wouldn't be getting just $20 a month if scammers weren't bankrupting the system and DHHS were better at policing.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

zong said:


> People abuse everything. I can guarantee you that there are people in this forum abusing drugs, alcohol, and food.
> That's right, some people here are 300 pounds or more, and as much a substance abuse as a crack head.
> 
> So what? Some people abuse the system, but not everybody. Do you hate alcohol because you know somebody that is an alcoholic? How about opiates? Tobacco? Bacon?
> ...


To me, it is the system that allows for so much abuse and fraud.

I am told that a few years ago, when there were massive lay offs and so many unemployed or underemployed, that the state pretty much opened the flood gates so _almost anyone_ could get on food stamps. In fact, it was all over the local news, 'Come apply today!!' was the basic message.

FWIW, I don't think many are passing up $2240 a month for $189 in FS, but there are some that qualified for $750+ a month, and then refused work because it was beneath them. 

IMO, I am equally ticked at Congress, and I don't believe that the FS system will ever be fixed. Think about it: if you take all of the House of Representatives and Senators from Georgia, and all of those from North Carolina, do you think that they would ever vote for a provision to remove Coke or Pepsi from the food stamp program?

I agree, the FS program does help many people, but the whole system is really messed up, IMO.


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## Shayanna (Aug 1, 2012)

When my hubby and I moved here and were stuck without jobs a for a month, and cupboards were bare, we were desperate. Campbell's tomato soup and spaghetti noodles as a gift from my mother was a meal one night. I was pregnant at the time 

I remember meeting with our caseworker and crying when he told us we would be receiving food stamps for the month. I sent him a thank you card and still thank him every time I run into him at the store. There are only so many times you can eat morel mushroom soup before it makes you physically sick (it happened to be mushroom season.)
Unfortunately there are still people out there abusing this program, and buying others groceries using the card in exchange for cash to be used for alcohol it tobacco.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

zong said:


> Personally, I don't think anybody would walk away from a $14 an hour job, $560 a week, $2240 a month, just to get $189 a month in food stamps.


I agree with you on the189 bucks a month in food stamps wouldn't be worth turning down a good job. But when you add up all the other assistance available..... section 8 housing... medicaid... utilities...etc many will opt to turn down that job... have all their basic needs met and have all that free time to work under the table or go fishing if they want.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

I think it bears repeating...

Not ALL recipients are committing fraud.
A majority of people really and truly do need the extra to put food on the table.
Most of them do have jobs.
But their weekly check does not cover all of their needs.

Have you looked at the prices of rent these days??
It has more than doubled since I last rented.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

I'm so sick of people justifying confiscating one individuals property in order to subsidize another person's lack of planning, initiative, and dignity. A welfare recipient is incentivized to not claw themselves out of poverty. It is not a hand up, it is an anchor around their necks that will, in most cases, become a generational inevitability.

Before I get lambasted for not having compassion for the poor...I'm a former poor person that understands the only way to crave a better life is to FULLY feel the pain of poverty. When I'm in a grocery store behind someone using a food stamp card, and see them talking on a $300 iPhone, and getting into a late model SUV, I start to lose my compassion. 

People need toughen up, quit making excuses and take responsibility for their own lives.

If someone has a true disability, or has a catastrophic loss that their extended family, church or local civic organization cannot help out with...then yes, perhaps a governmental safety net might be in order.

And, I'm sorry...America became the greatest nation on Earth, not because we have oodles of European style entitlement programs, but largely because for the first half of our nation's existence, we AVOIDED those national pitfalls. We had the American "can-do" attitude, we took responsibility for ourselves, we had pride in doing for ourselves. If a neighbor needed help, we helped...not looking for something in return...just because it was right. We didn't look to the government to solve our problems. This way of thinking was replaced by government's "benevolent hand" around the turn of the last century, but greatly accelerated after the New Deal and the Great Society. Notice that even after all of this massive government redistribution that poverty is at the same relative rate? Now, even here on a HOMESTEADING WEBSITE of all places I see people extolling the virtues of government sanctioned property confiscation and redistribution in the name of fairness.

Phew...I feel better. Off my soapbox.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Foodshare or SNAP, at least in WI, is based on income. Assets do not figure in. Only income generated by the asset is counted.

Clarification - WIC - Women, Infant, & Children nutrition program is for low income pregnant women and also for dependent children birth to 5. Women are are still breast feeding get some additional grocery funds. Yes, a low income father raising his children qualifies.

ETA - a serious chunk of brain development occurs in children birth to three. It's a good society investment to help low income families raise kids whose brains have nutritional needs met.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Gravytrain has it correct.

Think back to The Great Depression - when MOST people had NOTHING. They made do with what they had. Many a family had potato soup day after day after. And they were HAPPY to HAVE it, because they knew there were people that didn't.

If something would occur in our society now (similar to The Great Depression), people would moan and complain about having to eat potato soup day after day. "It's inhumane."


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wharton said:


> The MAJORITY clearly have no interest in abusing our elderly, disabled and extremely poor to accommodate your extremist ideology.


I have no interest in abusing anyone be they poor or well off. I endorse a bit different approach to the problem of poverty.... like providing incentives for people to work and provide for themselves rather than paying them to remain in poverty. In the words of a previous president "the best social program is a job". I am not quite sure just what extremest ideology you think I hold but it is certainly not to abuse the disabled or elderly or anyone else!


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Chixarecute said:


> ETA - a serious chunk of brain development occurs in children birth to three. It's a good society investment to help low income families raise kids whose brains have nutritional needs met.


Agreed, but how many of developing brains will be taught to "work the system"?

A better thing would be if you can't afford to feed your kids, then you don't have them (or have more). But brood mares continue to pop out more and more - and why not? - they WILL get fed.


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## VERN in IL (Nov 30, 2008)

The "food stamp program" here is called the "Illinois Link card"

Users who qualify for the food program can swipe their Link cards in the grocery checkout lane. They can't buy alcohol, tobacco, pet food &#8212; you get the idea.

But if they're also enrolled in TANF, those restrictions get unwound. TANF money can be withdrawn from ATMs, via the Link card, and spent on anything. 

you can use it for:


-Bail money
-to gamble at slot machines 

The money is intended to pay utilities, rent and essentials. But it's cash &#8212; tough to track and regulate. Grocery clerks will tell you: It's not uncommon for users to go through the grocery lane with food, then come back with TANF cash for cigarettes or alcohol.

I'm pretty sure you can now use your LINK government welfare card as an ATM card. So you can now just withdraw your welfare cash to buy smokes, booze, drugs, ipods, xbox games, and big screen TV's.

Check out what is going on with these Link cards at these small convenience stores, Anything you want to buy, cigarettes, cash back, no problem!! They'll take care of you!

 Move here!


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

Opinions about whether the food stamp program is good or evil are irrelevant. The fact is, the food stamp program is here to stay. As is the fact that the USA spends money on everything you can think of. I don't believe hardly any government programs are worthwhile. So what? It's here anyway. We can argue the virtues of the food stamp program versus the war in Afghanistan, money spent of solar energy, or anything else. The food stamp program exist, and will never go away.

Too many people have had hard times, mostly because the federal government gave away millions of jobs when they opened the door by eliminating import quotas. The jobs just aren't there like they were in the 60's and 70's. I remember when you could get mad, walk off your job, go down the road a mile or 2, and be at work at a new job before your shift was up. Now, it takes weeks to even apply for a job.

Yep, some people abuse the program. BUT, it's here anyway. You may not like the government and the way it does business. Get out and vote. Can you guys not see that it was our own apathy that let us get to this point?? Look at the clowns that we, the people, elected. It ain't them, it's us. 
We have met the enemy, and he is us.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

My husband is a vet , with military disabilities. To make a long story short he is unable to work now. Even with his disability he has worked for years.
But he had to have surgery due to the disability this summer.
So we applied. He had lost his job last spring. And over the last 5 years the economy had left us Short on cash.
I do what I can working here and there.
So we do ok. But We had eaten most of the food from our garden. 
I was astonded when they gave 2 people $369 dollars a month. They put me on as care giver. we took it for 2 monthes with both of us on it. But if we kept getting so much we would have filled the house with food. So I am not on it any more. By my own choice.

Doing some resurch on food stamps they were started during the Great depression , but they were only coupons that allowed persons to buy crops grown by farmers at half off the price. Now I think they are a stand in for the soup kitchens. We probably wouldn't need so many if the goverment didn't inflate our money so much.

Doesn't Canada have a safety net? Except they only give cash?


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

zong said:


> Opinions about whether the food stamp program is good or evil are irrelevant. The fact is, the food stamp program is here to stay. As is the fact that the USA spends money on everything you can think of. I don't believe hardly any government programs are worthwhile. So what? It's here anyway. We can argue the virtues of the food stamp program versus the war in Afghanistan, money spent of solar energy, or anything else. The food stamp program exist, and will never go away.
> 
> Too many people have had hard times, mostly because the federal government gave away millions of jobs when they opened the door by eliminating import quotas. The jobs just aren't there like they were in the 60's and 70's. I remember when you could get mad, walk off your job, go down the road a mile or 2, and be at work at a new job before your shift was up. Now, it takes weeks to even apply for a job.
> 
> ...


Really I think it's voter fraud. Tell me what the voter can do when they have proof of it but no one will do any thing about it.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2014)

Gotta have organized write-ins. The 2 party system has failed the people. Both parties are equally incompetent. We need people who don't go into office owing donors.


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## tikaani (Apr 3, 2005)

This is such a hot button issue it probably belongs in another sub forum. That being said i have known people on welfare who were working full timebig box retail jobs. They all looked to be getting the minimum amount. I think they told me they were getting $20 a month. Hardly worth the time they spent on paperwork and phone time. I would think this country would be better served if wages kept up with inflation. My neighbor told me when he left school in the 70s he got a minimum wage job that he said allowed him to maintain a home, pay for college, a car, and start a family. I would hate to be in these people's shoes today. Not only have costs skyrocketed but wages have remained flat. Food for thought


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

http://www.fns.usda.gov/building-healthy-america-profile-supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program

See the report file

geo


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Sadly I think there is more fraud in the food stamp program happening because of stores buying them. Most of the money made is probably sent out of the country.
Possibly to fund terrorism.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Boy, folks, I appreciate the responses, I had no idea about the program, and I am glad you all shared. Thanks!


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Paumon said:


> How so? It's not easy for anyone to get on welfare or any other social assistance programs in Canada. There has to be a proven real need. The welfare system's time limits that are imposed on recipients makes it not possible for there to be 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation welfare families. There's no such thing as food stamps or other numerous assistance programs and benefits that USA and some other countries have. I'd be interested to know what aspects of Canada's welfare program you think is ridiculous.


Come to my small town on welfare check day. The liquor store is busy busy busy! There are so many able bodied people using MY and YOUR tax dollars to buy alcohol, it is not even funny. They are simply lazy. And we all know it. That is what is wrong with the Canadian system. It is abused horribly. There should be a doctors note or something.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

farmerDale said:


> Come to my small town on welfare check day. The liquor store is busy busy busy! There are so many able bodied people using MY and YOUR tax dollars to buy alcohol, it is not even funny. They are simply lazy. And we all know it. That is what is wrong with the Canadian system. It is abused horribly. There should be a doctors note or something.


Many people on social assistance DO go to the liquor store on welfare Wednesday for a case of beer. That's one day and one case of beer out of the month. You don't see them at the liquor store every day. I sure don't begrudge a person a treat of one case of beer a month out of their welfare cheque - a $600 a month cheque that has to cover all of their living expenses. How do you know that all of them are lazy? How do you know that they're not taking a required government skills training course, or that they may be a mentally or physically handicapped person? Nobody who is able bodied can stay on welfare beyond a couple of months unless they're taking a government approved skills and career training course or if they're a single mother with children under school age. Even single mothers have to go off welfare and get a job once their youngest child has reached school age, and they can't have more babies while they're on welfare or they'll risk losing custody of all of their children.

People who are disabled or have some kind of medical problem have to do far more than get a simple doctor's note and it's a complicated, long drawn out process. There are 12 pages of government medical forms that have to be filled out by the applicant and the doctor and then assessed and witnessed by an official government advocate. The forms have to have the complete medical history and disability diagnosis of the applicant, including the doctor's recommendation for how long the disabled person needs medical treatment before they're deemed able to go back to work or require new skills training for a different job. Then the forms have to be submitted to the government for assessment and approval or denial of benefits, that's a process that takes 2 - 4 months after submission of application before the applicant hears back from the government.

This following post is for your further information and may answer some other questions you might have. Somebody in America asked what the welfare state was like for single mothers in Vancouver. Canada's welfare system isn't provincial, it's federal, so the regulations are the same for everyone across the country as they are for the city the person was asking about. The answer that was given covers a lot of requirements for eligibility of benefits and you'll see there why it's not possible in Canada for 2nd to 4th generation welfare families to exist. If they try it they lose custody of their kids and get kicked out of the system permanently.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/vancouver/1951229-state-welfare-vancouver.html


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

snowcap said:


> Doesn't Canada have a safety net? Except they only give cash?


No. No safety nets and no cash. People must be proven desperate to qualify for social assistance or they're not eligible for anything. There's no in-between criteria. If they're working low income earners and not able to cover all their food expenses they can go to the Food Bank for food which all comes from donations from the public.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Paumon said:


> No. No safety nets and no cash. People must be proven desperate to qualify for social assistance or they're not eligible for anything. There's no in-between criteria. If they're working low income earners and not able to cover all their food expenses they can go to the Food Bank for food which all comes from donations from the public.


I bet there is alot more gardens there.
Here if you suggest growing a garden, they get upset.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

snowcap said:


> I bet there is alot more gardens there.
> Here if you suggest growing a garden, they get upset.


Agriculture in general is a big deal in Canada. I haven't travelled across Canada so can't speak for everyone else but here in BC anyone who lives in a house has a back yard garden and that's including welfare families. Many back yards also have little greenhouses or solariums set up on porches. In the cities there are a lot of neighbourhood community gardens and roof top gardens on high rise buildings and condos. Lots of commercial greenhouses, farms and lots of local farmers markets. People in towns and cities are also permitted to have backyard chickens - limited to 4 hens per family.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Wanda said:


> Just like in this country, if YOU do not need it, it is all fraud! When people give all of there ,,they abuse the system examples, I wonder how many report the abuse. I think if you are sure there is cheating going on and do not report it, you are as guilty as the food stamp cheaters. It is always easy to moan and groan but much harder to help fix the problem!


No one said, to the best of my knowledge, it was all fraud. That is the usual extreme emotional statement to meant to derail any conversation that there is fraud and misuse. You're right that it is easier to see it than to do anything about it-and that includes ending any conversation about it because someone lays on a guilt trip.
The misuse knowledge come from personal experience. Although I generally do know know many people getting welfare, the ones I did know enough to know what was going on all were working under the table to get what they wanted. And that includes the collusion between my own relatives to provide money and not report it. 
It is an unreasonable thing to expect such widespread practices to be reorted by friends and relatives, especially when nothing much happens except an emotional scene. Proving something to bureaucracy standards is difficult.
There is a fairly simple solution to minimize fraud but it entails making it less comfortable to use it. At one point there were commodities only- which is how a welfare program ended up under the Farm Bills. But it was embarassing and awkward to go get it. To make easier , people started getting ersatz money to use at the grocery. Then, to avoid the embarassment of actual food stamps, debit card were supposed to disguise the use so no one would have to be singled out in line. As if that ever worked.
Then there was the endless reducing of verification because it was embarassing too and beside it cost money with personnel and it gradually disappeared.
Thus there is a program that is so widely misused, it has become acceptible. Simply making it unattractive again will at least reduce the chance for fraud in the first place.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

And now even some Welfare recipients are getting EBT cards so they can go and get parts etc. even for their car. And some Connivence stores are now taking EBT cards so one can not tell if it is their Food Stamp Card or the Welfare one.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree with you on the189 bucks a month in food stamps wouldn't be worth turning down a good job. But when you add up all the other assistance available..... section 8 housing... medicaid... utilities...etc many will opt to turn down that job... have all their basic needs met and have all that free time to work under the table or go fishing if they want.



Then you just proved you know nothing at all about foodstamps, or medicaid or your section 8

Welfare does not pay your utilities. In order to get ON assistance you have to do a minimum of 10 job searches a week, and actually talk to the people and get something signed. Not like unemployment just sending around resumes.

Welfare does not meet your basic needs. If I went on welfare here, with 2 children, my monthly benefit would be 525 dollars a month. 
That includes having to pay for rent, heat, utilities out of that. Tell me where is the free ride for 525 dollars a month?

Again, you are spouting republican propaganda and don't know anything about welfare.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Agreed, but how many of developing brains will be taught to "work the system"?
> 
> A better thing would be if you can't afford to feed your kids, then you don't have them (or have more). But brood mares continue to pop out more and more - and why not? - they WILL get fed.



Brood mares? Seriously?

I bet they get pregnant all by themselves too. Nice way to talk about your fellow human beings. You are no better than anyone else, neither am I.

And I bet you are pro life too, and would fight them for wanting to get an abortion.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Years ago the gobbermutt bought up farm commodities to help even out the lean times, these were given out as surplus (cheese was a common handout) Over the years goobermutt bought up and supported more and more commodities. Problem is they started giving money away instead. It wasn't their money, it was yours and mine, easy money, traded for a vote....James


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> Boy, folks, I appreciate the responses, I had no idea about the program, and I am glad you all shared. Thanks!



PLEASE don't take the words of a disgruntled few, to be the truth about the food stamp program here.
Yes there is fraud, there is in any program. But this forum tends to be populated by republican conservative christians, who very much tend to be against such federal programs. 

You are NOT going to get an accurate account of the US food stamp program here. You will get opinions, mostly from people that think everyone on it is "lazy" or a "Brood mare", and wont go to work, and that is not true.

This isnt the place to get the truth about anything like this.


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## SugarMag (Jun 30, 2011)

What SNAP and TANF mainly do is subsidize corporations like Walmart and others to pay poverty wages to folks who work hard and should be able to EARN enough to buy their own darn groceries.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Agreed, but how many of developing brains will be taught to "work the system"?
> 
> A better thing would be if you can't afford to feed your kids, then you don't have them (or have more). But brood mares continue to pop out more and more - and why not? - they WILL get fed.


Sure they do and it starts in High School too. The more kids the pop out the more money they get. It is nearly epidemic as to what is happening to this young generation now days, and they way they are treating their bodies, and now when they can get those pills to take care of things the next day it is getting even worse as to what is going on these days. Some now can take a pill and others can just keep popping out kids like there is no tomorrow and the government is happy to help them in sending Tax Paying Funded programs, in the feeding and upkeep of the little ones, that never were brought into this world by love just Greed~!
I know one personally that wanted to be a 'baby factory', move from MI to WI just to do that. She asked ME to marry her. But guess what? I turned her down as I wanted nothing to do with a person like that. LOL
But that did not stop her one bit, she gads 5 kids the last I heard. LOL


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

farmerDale said:


> Come to my small town on welfare check day. The liquor store is busy busy busy! There are so many able bodied people using MY and YOUR tax dollars to buy alcohol, it is not even funny. They are simply lazy. And we all know it. That is what is wrong with the Canadian system. It is abused horribly. There should be a doctors note or something.


Here, my husband had a small business, and they would come around to sell bags of meat bought with food stamps to customers of ours. The going rate was 50% of what the grocery store price was.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

SugarMag said:


> What SNAP and TANF mainly do is subsidize corporations like Walmart and others to pay poverty wages to folks who work hard and should be able to EARN enough to buy their own darn groceries.


It certainly allows a lower wage to be unresisted. But in the end , if corporations raise their wage level, they raise their prices. The profit will not be reduced. 
I personally would rather pay someone for working rather than paying for not working. It simply makes a better citizen and neighbor.

However, i'm also sure that raising the wage would not have the stated effect as not all that many working people are receiving welfare of any sizable amount. That idea is one that the unions are using to push their own agenda.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

arabian knight said:


> And now even some Welfare recipients are getting EBT cards so they can go and get parts etc. even for their car. And some Connivence stores are now taking EBT cards so one can not tell if it is their Food Stamp Card or the Welfare one.


If there is not a grocery store in the town they live in, which is common here, our closest store is 10 miles one way, they can used their LINK card at the gas station, but only for food items. I don't see anything wrong with that, other than the quality of food, should they starve otherwise, would you??

And unless I am wrong, you get Food Stamps, might not be much, but you do right?


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Brighton said:


> If there is not a grocery store in the town they live in, which is common here, our closest store is 10 miles one way, they can used their LINK card at the gas station, but only for food items. I don't see anything wrong with that, other than the quality of food, should they starve otherwise, would you??


I am finding on the forums that the same people who complain about the food stamp cuts are also the ones defending the fraud. It's confusing to say the leaste.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

clovis said:


> As a taxpayer, the abuse really gets under my skin, especially when you know that the young person could have easily gotten a job for less money per hour ($14), but says they "are holding out for a management position at $16 an hour." All the while, an 81 year old widow I know who is on Social Security, draws just $61 a month in FS.





Shygal said:


> Welfare does not pay your utilities. In order to get ON assistance you have to do a minimum of 10 job searches a week, and actually talk to the people and get something signed. Not like unemployment just sending around resumes.
> 
> Welfare does not meet your basic needs. If I went on welfare here, with 2 children, my monthly benefit would be 525 dollars a month.
> That includes having to pay for rent, heat, utilities out of that. Tell me where is the free ride for 525 dollars a month?
> ...


See the problem isn't the fraud, or how much each program gives out individually, its ALL the different programs available to hand out money. Yes welfare pays your utilities(heating assistance) , pays for a phone (cell and home) pretty much anything you could ever want. It does vary by state, but it is ALOT once you combine all the different programs available.

Take Hawaii (the highest amount) for example, if you take advantage of all the different welfare programs it would be the equivilant to making a salary of $61,000/yr off of the government for NOT working.

Most states average benefits in the $30,000/yr range but still, why would anyone take a $14/hr job to bring in the same amount of money and then have to pay taxes on that money when they could just sit at home collecting welfare making that money and not having to pay taxes on the benefits.

Want to see how each state pays?Check out this PDF Report


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

snowcap said:


> I am finding on the forums that the same people who complain about the food stamp cuts are also the ones defending the fraud. It's confusing to say the leaste.


I have never gotten food stamps in my whole life, 50 years, and there are times when I was very hungry, between jobs and such. I work with our local food pantry, I see the hunger, the older folks who can't make it and can't garden anymore, I am just happy my church helps them.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Brighton said:


> I have never gotten food stamps in my whole life, 50 years, and there are times when I was very hungry, between jobs and such. I work with our local food pantry, I see the hunger, the older folks who can't make it and can't garden anymore, I am just happy my church helps them.


So am I. but not all the food stamp recipients are older folks. 
just think we could help the needy more if we stopped the fraud. But I can't understand why people defend those committing the fraud. It hurts the elderly and kids.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shygal said:


> Then you just proved you know nothing at all about foodstamps, or medicaid or your section 8
> 
> Welfare does not pay your utilities. In order to get ON assistance you have to do a minimum of 10 job searches a week, and actually talk to the people and get something signed. Not like unemployment just sending around resumes.
> 
> ...


I am no expert on the subject by any means but I do know that a great many people in my area do get enough out of the various programs that All of their needs are met without any other income. There are three section eight apartment complexes in our small town... between welfare, section eight, wic, utility assistance, snap, and medicaid those good folks live in very decent fashion without working a day. Their basic needs are indeed being met.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shygal said:


> PLEASE don't take the words of a disgruntled few, to be the truth about the food stamp program here.
> Yes there is fraud, there is in any program. But this forum tends to be populated by republican conservative christians, who very much tend to be against such federal programs.
> 
> You are NOT going to get an accurate account of the US food stamp program here. You will get opinions, mostly from people that think everyone on it is "lazy" or a "Brood mare", and wont go to work, and that is not true.
> ...


You might be right.... general chat would probably provide a less biased group to gather information.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

No, looking things up from reputable sources would be a better source of information, not a forum


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

I dont see anyone defending people committing fraud, Snocap


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I am no expert on the subject by any means but I do know that a great many people in my area do get enough out of the various programs that All of their needs are met without any other income. There are three section eight apartment complexes in our small town... between welfare, section eight, wic, utility assistance, snap, and medicaid those good folks live in very decent fashion without working a day. Their basic needs are indeed being met.



How do you know? Do you go in their homes and check out their refrigerators and pantries, and their bills, what they have in their closets? Do you go through their mail and see what is coming in for this assistance? 
Do you follow them to the stores to see what they pay with? 

Id love to know how you know so much about the three apartment complexes that are full of people, that you know what each one gets, if they work or not, what they buy, etc.

You DONT know. I can drive by a mansion and envy the people inside, assuming all kinds of things, and not know the owner just went broke and has to leave the house, or his child just committed suicide, or his wife just left him and took him to the cleaners.

I can drive by a broken down looking house and think how those people must be getting all kinds of welfare and not know that its a single mom working two jobs to keep her children fed, whose husband ran out on them and wont pay a penny of child support, etc.

You dont know what anyone else lives like, except themselves.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Shygal said:


> I dont see anyone defending people committing fraud, Snocap


Oh, but they do. And they make excuses for it.
Even our own goverment commits fraud with our safety nets by giving benefits to non citizens.
But my point is people in need may be able to get more help if the fraud stopped.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shygal said:


> How do you know? Do you go in their homes and check out their refrigerators and pantries, and their bills, what they have in their closets? Do you go through their mail and see what is coming in for this assistance?
> Do you follow them to the stores to see what they pay with?
> 
> Id love to know how you know so much about the three apartment complexes that are full of people, that you know what each one gets, if they work or not, what they buy, etc.
> ...


Call me gullible.... I take their word for these things. Its one of those small town things where people actually get to know their neighbors.  I do have some pretty good knowledge about one case in particular.... as he lives in our home with us and I have been helping him out for several months now. He is hoping to be able to get back to his own place in another month or so.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Shygal said:


> How do you know? Do you go in their homes and check out their refrigerators and pantries, and their bills, what they have in their closets? Do you go through their mail and see what is coming in for this assistance?
> Do you follow them to the stores to see what they pay with?
> 
> Id love to know how you know so much about the three apartment complexes that are full of people, that you know what each one gets, if they work or not, what they buy, etc.
> ...


This is what I am talking about. When you know some one doesn't have a job, but the can smoke, drink, live in goverment housing, and are talking about taking their kid to the emergency room with Medicaid.
It's not hard to do the math.
Or they are selling sacks of meat, then going to the food bank. 
The American public isn't dumb.


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

I generally don't jump in on things like this, but, Shy, sometimes others do KNOW things about how others live.

Like, I know for a fact what one family is bringing in, because she told me. Her and her husband have never worked a day in their life, they have 7 kids. Three of those kids were born after she told me she could have one more before welfare would cut her off. They are making in excess of $5,200 a month in SSI checks and SNAP. This doesn't include their medical cards, lawyer fees, heat assistance and clothing vouchers. They continually have to have lawyers to prove they are fit parents, because of documented neglect/abuse. 

That's over $62,000yr in SSI and food alone. They are from 2nd/3rd generational public assistance families and their siblings are doing the same as them. Many siblings that have many kids. 

This is not an isolated case. In the area I lived it is more of a standard operation.

I have also seen my widowed grandmother live on $352 a month and be told that she was only eligible for $13 a month in food stamps. The same for my brother who was a paraplegic.

I know for me, seeing things first hand like above, is what bothers me. Many getting rewarded for having kids while others truly in need get very little.


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## sunny225 (Dec 4, 2009)

The problem I have with all of this is that the govt is TAKING my money by force out of every paycheck plus sales taxes on everything - then they redistribute it to those they deem worthy to have it. It's called theft, plain & simple. This was not constitutional when it was started & isn't now.
They take so much money from us that it's very hard to have any to give to those who are truly in need that are in our lives or who come into our lives.

I just wanted to add that some of you posting in this thread are as crazy as run over chickens.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

One law of life is that you get more of whatever you subsidize. Which is why nearly all government programs do more harm than good. We don't like to consider that our help may have created the problem. Few want to show tough love and reduce the amount of need. That would be cruel, right? 

So, with all our great "help", we produce more problems that need more help, and down the drain we go.

Private charity works better to assess people's true needs. Of course, charities have been replaced by government workers who don't mind throwing around other people's money. Read The Tragedy of American Compassion, by Marvin Olasky.

As for the baby makers, I'm ashamed to mention my niece who had 4 kids out of wedlock, by 3 different dads who never were involved. I understand one mistake, but how do you get to number 4? That would not be possible without state aid. Needless to say, her kids are a mess, and will likely need much more care from the taxpayer.

The so-called War on Poverty has greatly increased the percent of kids born to single moms. I believe in blacks it rose from 30+% to over 70%. Government checks replacing dads. Which results in more poverty and crime, and requires more government programs.

Last week, I heard a guy at work at the lunch table saying he was going to get over $500 a month for food for him, his girlfriend, and their baby and toddler. Two days later he told of buying a new TV with sound system for $800. Another crazy thing - he is 100 pounds overweight, and is trying to lose, but now he has all this government money to spend on food.

Which is another thing I've never understood - why many on assistance are obese. Sure, healthy food can be more expensive, but there is always the option of eating less. Were the poor in the depression overweight?

Of course, the government promotes obesity, then provides healthcare to fight the consequences - diabetes, etc.

Lest I be accused of picking on the poor, I feel more disdain for the money we waste in useless wars in which we destroy countries and countless lives.

And I'm sure the food corporations with their lobbyists are pushing hard for these programs. The poor are needed by the food corporations, just as the troops are needed by defense contractors, students are needed by the education industry, and patients are needed by the healthcare industry. All these industries use government to take money from us, and make us feel safe and secure and warm and fuzzy, while making things worse.

The number of poor increases, the troops are maimed or messed up mentally, students are in debt and without jobs, and patients are less healthy and less able to pay due to government driving up the cost of healthcare.

But still, many are grateful for all the 'love' our government has for us. Just as they were taught in government school, and on the government loving media.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

A few more thoughts.

There might be fewer poor if we weren't sucking trillions of dollars out of the economy to pay for such programs. And pay for the endless number of bureaucrats to administer them.

Send a dollar to Washington and get back 20 cents and we thank them dearly.

Where did we ever get the idea that we are better off by giving away our money and getting a fraction of it back?

Some will say the poor don't pay taxes. But since we don't want to pay taxes, much of government is funded by printing money out of thin air, which puts more dollars in circulation and makes each one worth less. If each dollar is worth less, it takes more of them to buy something, which is why over time, prices generally go up. So we pay for the printed money every time we buy something. That is called the inflation tax, which greatly affects the poor.

Which is one reason food prices keep going up, and the poor need more 'help'.

Another concept which few understand. People generally price what they are selling as high as someone is willing to pay. So when government provides money for something, the prices go up.

Which is why all the government money thrown at education has caused tuition to rise 3 times the rate of inflation.

Healthcare is also much higher priced than it should be. The Surgery Center of Oklahoma lists prices at their website that are a fraction of the usual - all because they decided to go free market and reject government money.

So for food, in addition to the increased prices from money printing, most likely the price is also inflated by the government aid.

So again, government programs jack up the price, then provide us 'help' because we can't afford it. Those lobbyists and bureaucrats sure do love the poor!

Thank You!!!!!

Those of us that question this 'help' are told we hate children and the poor and the elderly and we want people dying in the streets. Completely backwards.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

DJ in WA said:


> A few more thoughts.
> 
> There might be fewer poor if we weren't sucking trillions of dollars out of the economy to pay for such programs. And pay for the endless number of bureaucrats to administer them.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

zong said:


> Personally, I don't think anybody would walk away from a $14 an hour job, $560 a week, $2240 a month, just to get $189 a month in food stamps.


Well it happens. My farm neighbor was making $12 / hour (I think is what he told me) and he walked away from that job. He has 5 kids by 3 wives, the youngest two live with him. Says he gets $600/ month in SNAP. He didn't like the 30 minute drive to work, it cost too much in gas and was a pain. He told me flat out he could work under the table and get SNAP and be better off than working the job. 

One of the big things he didn't like about a real job was that the state and his ex-wives could track him down and garnish a portion of his pay for back child support.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> You might be right.... general chat would probably provide a less biased group to gather information.


So a less "biased" group is where all the low information extremists congratulate themselves about the correctness of their delusion, while being extremely careful to avoid facts, while degrading minorities and the poor, since they are clearly superior?


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

sunny225 said:


> The problem I have with all of this is that the govt is TAKING my money by force out of every paycheck plus sales taxes on everything - then they redistribute it to those they deem worthy to have it. It's called theft, plain & simple. This was not constitutional when it was started & isn't now.
> They take so much money from us that it's very hard to have any to give to those who are truly in need that are in our lives or who come into our lives.
> 
> I just wanted to add that some of you posting in this thread are as crazy as run over chickens.


Don't want to have your money taken, it's simple. Don't use a public road, enter a public building, use any form of communication at all, eat any food you didn't grow from seed you harvested in the wild and stay of public land while gathering, don't ever go to a hospital, don't ever have an accident that needs any emergency service. Completely divest yourself of any activity that may have enjoyed while partaking in the benefits of life in a first world country. Because, although it may be a little difficult for you to comprehend, it's ALL possible because various levels of your government funding and regulating it.

As for dismissing rational folks here as crazy, don't fly too close to the fire on that one. And be careful what you wish for. The Rep. party learned the hard way that extremists teatards, Randians, and other idiots want to destroy this country if given the opportunity, and are too dumb to comprehend the results of their actions.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

wharton said:


> Don't want to have your money taken, it's simple. Don't use a public road, enter a public building, use any form of communication at all, eat any food you didn't grow from seed you harvested in the wild and stay of public land while gathering, don't ever go to a hospital, don't ever have an accident that needs any emergency service. Completely divest yourself of any activity that may have enjoyed while partaking in the benefits of life in a first world country. Because, although it may be a little difficult for you to comprehend, it's ALL possible because various levels of your government funding and regulating it.
> 
> As for dismissing rational folks here as crazy, don't fly too close to the fire on that one. And be careful what you wish for. The Rep. party learned the hard way that extremists teatards, Randians, and other idiots want to destroy this country if given the opportunity, and are too dumb to comprehend the results of their actions.


I don't think a single one of us says that we should pay NO taxes, any government needs some sort of tax, ALTHOUGH if we cut out the welfare our taxes would go down approximately 43%. Thats almost HALF of all government spending.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

wharton said:


> As for dismissing rational folks here as crazy, don't fly too close to the fire on that one. And be careful what you wish for. The Rep. party learned the hard way that extremists teatards, Randians, and other idiots want to destroy this country if given the opportunity, and are too dumb to comprehend the results of their actions.


Typical progressive strategy. When you don't have a rational answer to the argument, resort to wanton name calling and ridicule. Alinsky would be proud.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

Food stamps, like a lot of government programs, needs reform and oversight as it is prone to abuse.

I'm fairly certain that most in these forums would not want to deny aid to someone who legitimately needed it. However, given the waste in government these days, it would be prudent to find ways to reduce fraud, waste and abuse.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

I see that a lot of people are posting on different forums about the selling of food or food stamps. A couple of things come to mind,who is the buyers and why don't people report them? As a general rule it is hard for one person to commit a lot of the fraud. Someone mentioned working ''under the table''. Why is the one working any worse than the one hiring?:shrug:


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Paumon said:


> No. No safety nets and no cash. People must be proven desperate to qualify for social assistance or they're not eligible for anything. There's no in-between criteria. If they're working low income earners and not able to cover all their food expenses they can go to the Food Bank for food which all comes from donations from the public.


Ok, I did not want to go here, but if you are brown and have indian heritage is one way to get on the dole. Sorry, just the way it is. You can be as able bodied as anyone, but if you have the correct genetic makeup, you get welfare. Then you come into town, buy up the alcohol, and go back to the reserve.

Often in a stolen vehicle.

I get it, this is brutal to say, but sadly it is the absolute truth. I know folks in Vancouver will not get this at all, but this is the reality of most, not all, of rural western Canada. 

I feel so badly about the situation: but I am not sure how it can ever be fixed. But race based perks are killing us. The crime rate is terrible because of it. Saskatchewan's crime rate would drop probably 90% if this could be resolved somehow. Racial tensions do not go away. Over Christmas, about 11 vehicles were stolen from our small town of 1400 people, including our van, taken while we were caroling on the steps of a friend. All were found on the reserve, burned black. 

That is how welfare in Canada is working. Just for some perspective. 

We need a better system. We CAN NOT leave the poor with reason behind. But we also need to weed out those who refuse to help themselves, whether they are purple, brown, or white. I am not sure how we should do this. Stopping cold turkey would be tough.

How do you get folks to work, when they don't want or need to, because they have no reason to? It is a tough situation. My heart aches over it.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

SugarMag said:


> What SNAP and TANF mainly do is subsidize corporations like Walmart and others to pay poverty wages to folks who work hard and should be able to EARN enough to buy their own darn groceries.


You got that right. Some employers also promote all those govt support programs to suppliment their meager pay. I know some that could pay a living wage but don't because they use these programs as a form of subsidy.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Maybe those families with lots of children see all his govt help as a form of God's provision. Really though, what's the difference between welfare and getting an exemption on your income tax?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

bowdonkey said:


> Maybe those families with lots of children see all his govt help as a form of God's provision. Really though, what's the difference between welfare and getting an exemption on your income tax?


One is getting relief from the government taking his earnings while the other is getting paid what he doesn't work to get?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

arabian knight said:


> Sure they do and it starts in High School too. The more kids the pop out the more money they get. It is nearly epidemic as to what is happening to this young generation now days, and they way they are treating their bodies, and now when they can get those pills to take care of things the next day it is getting even worse as to what is going on these days. Some now can take a pill and others can just keep popping out kids like there is no tomorrow and the government is happy to help them in sending Tax Paying Funded programs, in the feeding and upkeep of the little ones, that never were brought into this world by love just Greed~!
> I know one personally that wanted to be a 'baby factory', move from MI to WI just to do that. She asked ME to marry her. But guess what? turned her down as I wanted nothing to do with a person like that. LOL
> But that did not stop her one bit, she gads 5 kids the last I heard.
> LOL


What were you thinking? You robbed the world of a little arabian knight running around! You got to admit, those extra food stamps had to be tempting?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

where I want to said:


> One is getting relief from the government taking his earnings while the other is getting paid what he doesn't work to get?


The result is the same in my book. Both are vote buyers and breed dependancy.


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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

I'm not sure where some of you are that have been saying that there is no follow up. When I was first a single working mom of two I received food stamps and had to report my income every month. I had a form to fill out and had to include a copy of my bills and pay stubs. When I got child support I was cut off and they took half of each check to pay back the program. All while I was still paying taxes. I also had to send in a letter from a dealership with the value of my car.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

http://whotv.com/2014/02/14/agribusiness-food-assistance-users-vary-from-state-to-state/

One of the reasons for fearing the food stamp programs is the creeping expansion it has been having as more and more of the limiting resource and income tests are raised. Excluding variuos resources and raising income exclusions creates more opportunities for misuse.
It's the same thing as raising the speed limits. The rational is that, if everyone is driving 65 now and that appears a safe speed, then raising the speed limit is ok.
But in truth people are well aware that they face little chance of being stopped for speeding if they only drive a bit over the speed limit. So when the speed limit is raised, people just up their speed to be what they consider a safe level over the increased limit. Which may not be so safe.
So, with the it's-ok-to-cheat-a-little mentality, the amount and scope of cheating rises.
The only way to check this tendency of most people is strict enforcement. Which we are not willing to do.
I would suspect that very, very few of the people using SNAP would report income or resources that they thought would not be likely to be caught.

So the fact that so many people, and their numbers are increasing despite the improving economy, as the above report lists, the small fraud can reach astronomical levels. And the result is being in line at the check out counter behind someone who drives a better car than you can afford or that nice cell phone and wears better clothes. And it happens more and more frequently.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

bowdonkey said:


> The result is the same in my book. Both are vote buyers and breed dependancy.


The vote buying I can accept but dependency? How can the government taking less of my own money make me dependent?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wharton said:


> So a less "biased" group is where all the low information extremists congratulate themselves about the correctness of their delusion, while being extremely careful to avoid facts, while degrading minorities and the poor, since they are clearly superior?


I am one of those low information extremists that likes to be better informed when I can. My research over the years shows our federal expenditures go pretty close to this average... 25 percent to military spending, 65 percent to social programs in one form or another, and the remaining 10 percent to "all other" categories. As best as I have been able to find out roughly 15 percent of our nations citizens pays roughly 85 percent of all federal income taxes collected by the federal government. I have also been lead to believe that FDR was re-elected 3 times and is the president who began the "welfare" programs even though the US Supreme Court justices unanimously declared them to be unconstitutional. Please inform me where these facts and figures are incorrect.... I do like to be well informed.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

farmerDale said:


> ........ I get it, this is brutal to say, but sadly it is the absolute truth. I know folks in Vancouver will not get this at all, but this is the reality of most, not all, of rural western Canada.........
> 
> ...... I feel so badly about the situation: but I am not sure how it can ever be fixed. How do you get folks to work, when they don't want or need to, because they have no reason to? It is a tough situation. My heart aches over it.


I don't think you're being brutal. You're addressing the white elephant in the room. Believe it or not, British Columbians DO "get it" because there are two problems and you have just mentioned one of them. 

(1) - The prairie provinces have the problem with Native affairs and everyone in Canada knows about it but treats it like the white elephant in the room due to political correctness and from guilt and shame stemming from the past. 

(2) - The 2nd problem is in British Columbia, (whose native tribes are different and mostly do have a very strong capitalistic and entrepreneurial work ethic), but instead BC has the problem with all of the rest of Canada's non-native derelicts, drug addicts and homeless who migrate permanently from across the entire country to the BC lower mainland for the survivable winter climate. 

This is a problem that both BC and Florida share in common so I think it's something that Floridians might also relate to.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

tiffnzacsmom said:


> I'm not sure where some of you are that have been saying that there is no follow up. When I was first a single working mom of two I received food stamps and had to report my income every month.


Well that MAY vary from State to State.
I only get reviewed once a Year, and that is it.. That is for both Food Stamps and WI Medicaid benefits. Once A Year thats it.
And now it has gotten even easier as I ONLY do it Over the Phone and do a Digital Signature while on the phone interview. Yeah.
Now I still have to send in a bank statement, and if my Medicare insurance payment for Humana changes, but last year I also did that over the phone as when those payments go up the Food Stamp allotment also goes up. 
And to get on Medicaid program for WI I work a few hours each week as I can then Pay to get in. 
The Program is called MAPP:
Stands for Medicaid Assistance Purchase Plan and is only for people on disability like myself.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

where I want to said:


> One is getting relief from the government taking his earnings while the other is getting paid what he doesn't work to get?


The exemption buys votes. I wonder how all the right wing religious kooks with big families would vote if a candidate was for ending this deduction. Why should a single person be forced to pay more tax than someone with children making the same amount of money? Those family friendly politicians are buying votes. You're depending on that deduction. You're getting something others don't get from the govt. Unless of course you do what you have to and have more kids.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

farmerDale said:


> Ok, I did not want to go here, but if you are brown and have indian heritage is one way to get on the dole. Sorry, just the way it is. You can be as able bodied as anyone, but if you have the correct genetic makeup, you get welfare. Then you come into town, buy up the alcohol, and go back to the reserve.


Cant speak to canada, but in the states this is true because of treaty obligations. Its a requirement that the fed had to provide certain services to all, enrolled tribal members


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> They don't do a good job of following up and making sure the recipient still qualifies over time.


I can tell you that they're doing a lot better on that now. I know a girl who was on SNAP and got a job working at a convenience store. Within a few months her SNAP amount was automatically reduced, apparently because they saw IRS withholding of her wages.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

That is just as fast as it has been for Years. Every time there is a COLA increase of the past X years the Food Stamp Allotment will and has gone down, so the Government has been checking the amount of income for years in relating to the amount a person gets on FS's.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

bowdonkey said:


> The exemption buys votes. I wonder how all the right wing religious kooks with big families would vote if a candidate was for ending this deduction. Why should a single person be forced to pay more tax than someone with children making the same amount of money? Those family friendly politicians are buying votes. You're depending on that deduction. You're getting something others don't get from the govt. Unless of course you do what you have to and have more kids.


Wow- just wow. Right wing religious kooks with big families. Beside being a sharp detour from your own question about the difference between a working person paying less taxes and a person not working at all.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I can tell you that they're doing a lot better on that now. I know a girl who was on SNAP and got a job working at a convenience store. Within a few months her SNAP amount was automatically reduced, apparently because they saw IRS withholding of her wages.


sShe was suppossed to report income every month. And that she got a job. I am surprised she didn't have to pay back some or that she wasn't cut off all together.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

bowdonkey said:


> Really though, what's the difference between welfare and getting an exemption on your income tax?


Wow. OK. Barney style for you then.


*Income Tax exemption:*
I do a job, I get money for that job, government wants to take some money, exemption stops government from taking some of the money I WORKED FOR.

*Welfare:*
I do NOTHING, government gives me money.



It is literally as simple as that. They are not even close to being the same thing. Interpret or spin that however you want.

The "Right wing religious kooks with big families" you speak of don't want a handout from the government. An exemption is merely getting the government OUT OF YOUR POCKET. It's not an entitlement like welfare because YOU HAVE TO WORK to obtain an income that they can tax.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

snowcap said:


> sShe was suppossed to report income every month. And that she got a job. I am surprised she didn't have to pay back some or that she wasn't cut off all together.


I don't recall how often she had to qualify, but I'm sure it was a matter of months. This adjustment was automatic and occurred before her next qualification.


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## Classof66 (Jul 9, 2011)

My dad worked in a small town grocery during the depression to help support his widowed mother and himself. Not everyone worked hard and made do. A lot of them bought stuff and charged it and never paid for it. Food, gas, coal, rent, you name it. Times were hard, but a lot of well meaning businessmen got hurt too. Many hated to say no, or see a family go hungry. Some of these folks were ones who got on their feet later and lived well, they just never paid the grocery back. It used to really irk my dad.


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## lexy (Dec 4, 2013)

I live in a small rural town in BC and there are people that abuse the welfare system here. They say they are single, yet have a boyfriend that works full time and does not claim his income or that he is living there. They could work but chose not to cause they are getting paid to stay home and drive a brand new van that the child tax credit pays for....There is abuse in all systems and this person is a second generation welfare recipient. She never paid rent either as it was one of her grandparents houses...So do not fool yourself that Canada is strict on it.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I don't recall how often she had to qualify, but I'm sure it was a matter of months. This adjustment was automatic and occurred before her next qualification.


It's by the month.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

lexy said:


> I live in a small rural town in BC and there are people that abuse the welfare system here. They say they are single, yet have a boyfriend that works full time and does not claim his income or that he is living there. They could work but chose not to cause they are getting paid to stay home and drive a brand new van that the child tax credit pays for....There is abuse in all systems and this person is a second generation welfare recipient. She never paid rent either as it was one of her grandparents houses...So do not fool yourself that Canada is strict on it.


 
If you know of these abuses for a fact have you reported her? If not, why not?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

So Vash, you're more special than the single person who does the same job?


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Shygal said:


> Welfare does not pay your utilities. In order to get ON assistance you have to do a minimum of 10 job searches a week, and actually talk to the people and get something signed. Not like unemployment just sending around resumes.
> 
> Welfare does not meet your basic needs. If I went on welfare here, with 2 children, my monthly benefit would be 525 dollars a month.
> That includes having to pay for rent, heat, utilities out of that. Tell me where is the free ride for 525 dollars a month?
> ...


Why the Republican bashing? I'm a Republican and it's as OK for me to have an opinion as it is for you. 

All states have different requirements. In IL there is a five year limit on TANIF benefits unless you're working, disabled, or caring for a disabled child or spouse. It is a federal program but states administrate it differently. It must be possible to live off welfare because some people do. They certainly don't live high but they can survive with a combo of Medicaid, TANIF, SNAP, Section 8, and assistance programs that pay for utilities. 

I'm not saying that these programs shouldn't exist. Today's society does not care for its weakest members as it did in past times. 




arabian knight said:


> The more kids the pop out the more money they get. It is nearly epidemic as to what is happening to this young generation now days, and they way they are treating their bodies.


I don't think this has as much to do with welfare as it does for the lack of respect people have for their bodies. The social stigma associated with out of wedlock babies is pretty much gone. Unfortunately, we expect our children to be sexually active instead of expecting them to remain chaste until marriage.



SugarMag said:


> What SNAP and TANF mainly do is subsidize corporations like Walmart and others to pay poverty wages to folks who work hard and should be able to EARN enough to buy their own darn groceries.


I'm not quite sure how you came up with this one since these programs were developed far before the era of the megamart. 



wharton said:


> As for dismissing rational folks here as crazy, don't fly too close to the fire on that one. And be careful what you wish for. The Rep. party learned the hard way that extremists teatards, Randians, and other idiots want to destroy this country if given the opportunity, and are too dumb to comprehend the results of their actions.


It is important to be respectful to everybody. People often resort to name calling when we have nothing of substance to say. The Republican party of today is Republican in name only. Do you realize how offensive it is to people who have developmental disabilities (and their loved ones) when they hear people sling around the word retard? That sure isn't very sensitive. 

Because my views are different from yours does not make me stupid. I don't like the changes that have happened in our country since it's gotten so liberal. I would never tell you that you are too dumb to understand your actions. 

In case you want to know, I'm pretty well educated. 

All programs are subject to abuse. SNAP benefits are one of them. You hear a lot about how benefits are really low. I guess you could say that if you eat a lot of processed food and don't keep staples on hand. During the time between I became unable to work and the time my commercial disability insurance started paying we received food stamps. We had gone through every penny we had by the time we applied.

We keep basics on hand and make food from scratch. We had enough money left in our SNAP account to eat on for nearly a year after we stopped getting benefits. 

The really sad thing about all this is that I think social programs are needed. They are so rife with corruption and abuse that it can be more difficult for the truly needy to get assistance. Not all need is based on poor planning or poor decisions.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Paumon said:


> If you know of these abuses for a fact have you reported her? If not, why not?[/
> because you don't tell. you can get hurt that way.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Classof66 said:


> My dad worked in a small town grocery during the depression to help support his widowed mother and himself. Not everyone worked hard and made do. A lot of them bought stuff and charged it and never paid for it. Food, gas, coal, rent, you name it. Times were hard, but a lot of well meaning businessmen got hurt too. Many hated to say no, or see a family go hungry. Some of these folks were ones who got on their feet later and lived well, they just never paid the grocery back. It used to really irk my dad.


People get mad at me when I say they are keeping our food distribution structure up and running. But I've read what your saying and it does seem to be true. It kinda looks like the store here is kept going with the food stamps.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

snowcap said:


> Paumon said:
> 
> 
> > If you know of these abuses for a fact have you reported her? If not, why not?
> ...


Nonsense. That's the most common and cheapest excuse that chronic complainers and cowards use for turning a blind eye and permitting other people to commit abuses. 

Complainers like to moan and groan about how their tax money is being abused by people who abuse the welfare system, but when it comes right down to it they can't be bothered to speak up in the right places or do anything proactive to put an end to the abuse. So they say "I don't want to involve myself or I might get hurt." 

Well cry me a river.

If someone wants to report an abuser they can do so anonymously and then leave it up to the proper authorities to investigate the abuse. If the complainers can't be bothered to report the abuse and are willing to stand by and watch it happen then they have no room for complaints. They're only hurting themselves more and have nobody but themselves to blame for it.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

You know that for sure. I had no idea you lived near me.
Or in the big citys where the convinience stores by them by the thousands, and take the profits to finace terror. 
You have no clue.

There are alot of youtube videos on the subject. A few might be made up but no way all of them are.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

snowcap said:


> You know that for sure. *I had no idea you lived near me.*
> Or in the big citys where the convinience stores by them by the thousands, and take the profits to finace terror.
> You have no clue.
> 
> There are alot of youtube videos on the subject. A few might be made up but no way all of them are.


I had no idea you lived near Lexy in BC.

Snowcap your profile identifies you as Snowcap, location in Idaho, not Lexy located in a small rural town in British Columbia. I asked _Lexy_ a question about whether or not she's reported a welfare abuser in her own town, I didn't ask you but you chose to answer for her. You don't like my response that getting hurt is a cheap excuse used by complainers for not standing up for what is the right thing to do. That's too bad for you but it's still a cheap excuse.

What do you propose should be done about the problems that you are complaining about? Surely you must have some constructive ideas to help solve your own problems in your own country, or do you just want to complain and make excuses and hope that somebody else who has some gumption will solve your problems for you?


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Your saying some thing is not happening in a country that you don't live in does not happen.
Truth is This country wants it to happen. It does no good to say any thing.
I thought this was a open form. Excuse me.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

bowdonkey said:


> So Vash, you're more special than the single person who does the same job?


It doesn't surprise me that you're on the attack again. 

Your question is also faulty, because a single person (as you say) can claim a personal exemption as long as their AGI is below a certain amount.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

Paumon said:


> What do you propose should be done about the problems that you are complaining about? Surely you must have some constructive ideas to help solve your own problems in your own country, or do you just want to complain and make excuses and hope that somebody else who has some gumption will solve your problems for you?


Copout.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Vash said:


> It doesn't surprise me that you're on the attack again.
> 
> Your question is also faulty, because a single person (as you say) can claim a personal exemption as long as their AGI is below a certain amount.


Yea, but he's talking about the multiple exemptions based on how many people you have created. The way the current tax system is setup in this country we subsidize the cost of creating kids. It is all to create a larger tax base/ dependency base. (Whichever way the politician are gaining votes)

I don't believe we should be subsidizing having kids anymore since our population has grown out of control. Back in the 40's I could see the reasoning, but not anymore. There is a reason countries like China have the one child rule, we need to stop subsidizing kids before we have to enact the same types of laws.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

blooba said:


> Yea, but he's talking about the multiple exemptions based on how many people you have created. The way the current tax system is setup in this country we subsidize the cost of creating kids. It is all to create a larger tax base/ dependency base. (Whichever way the politician are gaining votes)


You don't, technically, have to create any people to have multiple tax exemptions.

:hobbyhors


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

blooba said:


> Yea, but he's talking about the multiple exemptions based on how many people you have created. The way the current tax system is setup in this country we subsidize the cost of creating kids. It is all to create a larger tax base/ dependency base. (Whichever way the politician are gaining votes)
> 
> I don't believe we should be subsidizing having kids anymore since our population has grown out of control. Back in the 40's I could see the reasoning, but not anymore. There is a reason countries like China have the one child rule, we need to stop subsidizing kids before we have to enact the same types of laws.


The US population is not out of control due to birth. Depending on what source you believe, we are either basically a stable population or slightly declining population in the US as long as you factor out immigration.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

That is why "WE" factor in immigration. Many are illegal but are benefitting from the tax "breaks"

....James


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## VERN in IL (Nov 30, 2008)

This thread is trash now, since it was moved to GC, just read it, started off with good info then turned into fighting "extremist" and derogatory comments.

This is why GC is a waste and sorry that the OP thread got moved here. THAT is the reason that "off topic" threads get started in the other forums. I'm so Sorry!


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

Actually, there is a pretty good reason why parents get exemptions for raising kids.

Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, children benifit society in a lot of ways. First off, they grow into productive and tax-paying citizens, at least my five did, and so far all of THEIR offspring are doing the same, in a very impressive way. Not an adult in either generation unemployed or uneducated or a felon or a burden on society.

Secondly, children have a stabilising effect on adults.......especially on men. They make us better citizens, harder workers, better husbands, and better stewards of society, itself, because we are more interested in and caring about the country's future.

In centuries past, one's offspring benifitted him more than they did society, but for several decades, that has been reversed. Society now benifits more than parents do by the good job parents do in raising responsible offspring in a responsible way.

Deductions for children is a way that society shares the burden in some small way because society benifits in a BIG way.........and if you think the country is overcrowded, you need to get around more. Our county has a population density outside of it's one city of a person every 1.4 square miles, and it's a BIG county.

Lots of empty country out there in this nation. The fact that lots of people alll want to live in small chunks of it close together like a rabbit warren does not mean the country is full, just that folks seem to hate solitude or self reliance or something.....Joe


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## lexy (Dec 4, 2013)

Yes she had been turned in but they called to come for a home visit so they had advance notice as the social workers have to travel over 100 kms to get here and wanted to make sure she was home. She has now since moved since then and is probably still scamming the system.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Lexy, thanks for your reply.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Vash said:


> It doesn't surprise me that you're on the attack again.
> 
> Your question is also faulty, because a single person (as you say) can claim a personal exemption as long as their AGI is below a certain amount.


LMAO, maybe no one should get a deduction for being alive then? I would support that. What cracks me up is how everyone wants a little help from the government, and gets it but won't admit it. And no matter how you spin it someone else will pay for it. Adjusted Gross Income, little games they let you play so you feel they are looking out after you. May as well just camp out on the IRS steps and beg for alms. Now I'm on the attack.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

VERN in IL said:


> This thread is trash now, since it was moved to GC, just read it, started off with good info then turned into fighting "extremist" and derogatory comments.
> 
> This is why GC is a waste and sorry that the OP thread got moved here. THAT is the reason that "off topic" threads get started in the other forums. I'm so Sorry!


But GC is the one that excludes people so if this were in CF, the people you don't like in GC would still be posting. This is an issue that simply ends up this way because of what it is.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

What I like about GC is the differing viewpoints. It's interesting how you can agree with someone on a topic and be very opposed on another. Steel sharpens steel.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

bowdonkey said:


> LMAO, maybe no one should get a deduction for being alive then? I would support that. What cracks me up is how everyone wants a little help from the government, and gets it but won't admit it. And no matter how you spin it someone else will pay for it. Adjusted Gross Income, little games they let you play so you feel they are looking out after you. May as well just camp out on the IRS steps and beg for alms.


does this mean you are for the flat tax?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

DEKE01 said:


> does this mean you are for the flat tax?


I'll spell this out when I'm on the ticket.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

DEKE01 said:


> does this mean you are for the flat tax?


You will never, EVER see a flat tax in this country. We might change from income tax to sales tax, but there will always be incentives, rebates and credits. We can't stop politicians from doing it, and this is how politicians repay political favors.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Examples in fraud in the food stamp program.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...Men-Charged-with-1-9-Million-Food-Stamp-Fraud

In case you question my intent. It's not to bash the program. I just think we could help those who use the program as intended get a little more. The ones every one says are only getting $20- $25. In these cases a $10-$20 Would mean alot. Any thing would help. But even those on the program even deny it's happening.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

bowdonkey said:


> What I like about GC is the differing viewpoints. It's interesting how you can agree with someone on a topic and be very opposed on another. Steel sharpens steel.


That sounds good but isn't what seems to be happening here. Sound debate is great and our differences are what makes the world go 'round. It ain't cool, though, to call somebody an idiot simply because they don't share your views. A couple people have done that in this thread.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

bowdonkey said:


> What I like about GC is the differing viewpoints. It's interesting how you can agree with someone on a topic and be very opposed on another. Steel sharpens steel.


What is interesting, and not in a good way, is how some people use this as nothing but a platform to argue. They take both sides of an argument, not seeming to bring light to the subject, but rather to just counter what someone else has said.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

When most states no longer count assets because it makes it less expensive for the state to administer, and has multiple exemptions of income and raises the amount paid so more people qualify while the earned income for a large part of the population stagnates and illegal immigration is not only unchecked but has its own effective lobby in Congress, it is perfectly clear that food stamps has become a means of soothing citizens into ignoring the incompetent and abusive government.

This is why you can find yourself behind someone using food stamps then going home in their Lexus. It is not hyperbole.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

where I want to said:


> When most states no longer count assets because it makes it less expensive for the state to administer, and has multiple exemptions of income and raises the amount paid so more people qualify while the earned income for a large part of the population stagnates and illegal immigration is not only unchecked but has its own effective lobby in Congress, it is perfectly clear that foof stamps has become a means of soothing citizens into ignoring the incompetent and abusive government.
> 
> This is why you can find yourself behind someone using food stamps then going home in their Lexus. It is not hyperbole.


Also to consider, if it's Federal tax dollars, it's advantageous to get as many people qualified as possible. Get more outside money coming 
into the state.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

bowdonkey said:


> Also to consider, if it's Federal tax dollars, it's advantageous to get as many people qualified as possible. Get more outside money coming
> into the state.


Except, once we quit borrowing it, it comes out of the pockets of tax payers. There may be a shift of who gets to use the money but it is a productivity loss.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Except, once we quit borrowing it, it comes out of the pockets of tax payers. There may be a shift of who gets to use the money but it is a productivity loss.


And I'm sorry to say my state is playing this game with the new immigrants. Once the Federal dollars stop then we shoulder the burden.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

bowdonkey said:


> I'll spell this out when I'm on the ticket.


I'm right there with you on the flat tax idea.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Vash said:


> I'm right there with you on the flat tax idea.


 I do know The Fairtax is still circulating around Congress, that really would help things out a lot if that got approved.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> I do know The Fairtax is still circulating around Congress, that really would help things out a lot if that got approved.


It has zero chance. 3/4th of Congress's power comes from choosing winners and losers in the tax code. That is where the lobbyists concentrate. While they won't stand up to Obama, they will certainly stand up to taxpayers.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

where I want to said:


> It has zero chance. 3/4th of Congress's power comes from choosing winners and losers in the tax code. That is where the lobbyists concentrate. While they won't stand up to Obama, they will certainly stand up to taxpayers.


Amen to that. Big voting blocks and $$$ are who they pander to. Their constituency are eaisly controlled and manipulated through the tax code. To the point it effects the way they think and live, and they don't realize it.


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## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

deleted


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

All I know about foodstamps and welfare is that they aren't considered help:

Craig T. Nelson quote

""What happened to society? I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. *I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out*? No. No. They gave me hope, they gave me encouragement, and they gave me a vision.""

That is all you need to know....right?


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