# 40 billion watts?



## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

Just a thought . Suppose the entire economic stimulus pakage was applied to solar panels, This would create massive jobs, would make a difference in oil consumption, and would pay back , plus return a profit over time. I realise this is not possible ,but if govenment leadership existed It would trully be a economic pakage for AMERICA.
Now I don't know how much power that is , but sure seems like it would power a few homes.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

There are better more effective solar options now available. Large scale use of single site solar panels have several disadvantages compared to the current 'green' technologies.

Solar panels will remain a very effective solution for the individual wanting to produce their own power or a portion of that consumed. Most people can not be bothered to learn the simple skills needed or take the time required for periodic maintenance.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

Money could also be spent on windfarms creating many good jobs and lasting benefits.


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## Sand Flat Bob (Feb 1, 2007)

The problem is that you think politicians really care. What they care about is how much the lobbyists will pay them to mandate regulations where the lobbyists companies will make lots of money. Maybe another 8 years with Bill Clinton in the White house will change things. LOL

Bob


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Take the Iraq money and do a Manhattan Project on renewable power,that too would make a HUGE difference to our country and create jobs and clean our air and environment,and save lives too.

Most likely have powerful good political returns to us too if we didnt spend our time fueling wars in the Middle East.

You know THAT isnt about to happen either.Imagine how many high power people that would affect,they arent about to give up that power and control that Oil brings.

That we are making any progress at all right now truly amazes me.


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

What if a group of folks together form a corporation and built a renewable energy factory of wind, solar, ect. Purchasing power would get a much better deal than individual purchases. Would certainly be more secure than the stock market, as energy would always be in demand and has sale value to the utility grid. Then we would need no government involment and we would all be pioneering into the future. Then there is not much the rich folks could do but watch and learn or buy us out, then we start over.
There must be some way to fight back against the rising oil prices.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

The political demands out west here that so much power has to come from renewables is spurring a lot of construction.Thats a good step for sure IMO.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

40 billion watts

Thats about what the coal fire power plant I work at produces in 5 hours. If you calculated on a national level that might power the nation for 2 seconds (I think that might even be high)

If it is all put into renewable electricity it would ZERO difference in oil consumption since there is no real link (yet) between oil and electriicity. I really don't think it would make any difference in the economy as it would mostly go to projects that are already in the works. It would end up being a way to finance the already planned projects. 

The only way I would see it doing anything is if it was given to individuals with the stipulation that the money must go towards energy conservation or production. I bet you would see alot of little grid tie solar systems come on the market real fast that cost between $1500 and $2000. People wouldn't make all the power they needed but would cut their overall grid need by about 10%.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

Sand Flat Bob said:


> The problem is that you think politicians really care. What they care about is how much the lobbyists will pay them to mandate regulations where the lobbyists companies will make lots of money. Maybe another 8 years with Bill Clinton in the White house will change things. LOL
> 
> Bob


You hit the nail on the head. The current policy of being totally at the mercy of OPEC and the big oil companies has made millions of dollars for politicians. 

Germany developed a policy of providing serious economic benefits to people willing to invest in producing energy from solar power. As a result of the huge increase in demand for solar panels, Germany became the leading manufacturer of solar panels. Todat 30% of Germany's electric power comes from solar and their economy is really strong.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Wow,had no idea Germany was producing that much power,very impressive!


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

wy_white_wolf said:


> 40 billion watts
> 
> Thats about what the coal fire power plant I work at produces in 5 hours. If you calculated on a national level that might power the nation for 2 seconds (I think that might even be high)
> 
> ...


 I think you have the right idea. How many jobs would that create? 15 million installations, the manufacture of products, distribution, tax incentives for individuals, 10 percent reduction in electric bill. +++ Seems better than spending it at Walmart.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

For $2000 you can produce what? Maybe 150-200 watts per hour when the sun is shining. Wouldn't even touch the air conditioning bill.

Large scale solar plants in the area of 300-500 MW is where we must get to. No more investment in research as the technology is currently available. Maybe still do research on nuclear fusion. We will still need coal and nuclear fission for the near time future (50 years), but let's build modern ones to replace the old style plants built 20 years ago.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2008)

Sand Flat Bob said:


> Maybe another 8 years with Bill Clinton in the White house will change things. LOL


LOL! But will those changes be for the better? And how many more of the Clintons' friends will end up dead or in prison?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2008)

rickd203 said:


> You hit the nail on the head. The current policy of being totally at the mercy of OPEC and the big oil companies has made millions of dollars for politicians.
> 
> Germany developed a policy of providing serious economic benefits to people willing to invest in producing energy from solar power. As a result of the huge increase in demand for solar panels, Germany became the leading manufacturer of solar panels. Todat 30% of Germany's electric power comes from solar and their economy is really strong.


Several European countries are getting large amounts of their energy from renewable sources. I think about that when I read posts at this forum saying it can't be done here.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2008)

Explorer said:


> For $2000 you can produce what? Maybe 150-200 watts per hour when the sun is shining. Wouldn't even touch the air conditioning bill.
> 
> Large scale solar plants in the area of 300-500 MW is where we must get to. No more investment in research as the technology is currently available. Maybe still do research on nuclear fusion. We will still need coal and nuclear fission for the near time future (50 years), but let's build modern ones to replace the old style plants built 20 years ago.


A power company is building a solar plant in Arizona which is costing $1B and will power 70k homes.

How about we use the $152B from the stimulus package and build solar plants that will power 10M homes. :happy:


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Explorer said:


> For $2000 you can produce what? Maybe 150-200 watts per hour when the sun is shining. Wouldn't even touch the air conditioning bill.
> 
> Large scale solar plants in the area of 300-500 MW is where we must get to. .


$2000 would buy about 200 to 400 watts, installed by a professional. It would provide effortless power and require almost no maintenance for 25+ years. Here in Wisconsin 400 watts of PVs would provide about 1.5 kwhrs of electricity per day on an annual basis, and in Arizona it would produce more, and it would produce the most on those sunny days when air conditioning would be used most. The solution to electrical power production is not more huge centralized power plants, no matter what the fuel, but power production on the site that uses the power.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

ladycat said:


> A power company is building a solar plant in Arizona which is costing $1B and will power 70k homes.
> 
> How about we use the $152B from the stimulus package and build solar plants that will power 10M homes. :happy:



I know, I live here and posted that article. It is interesting to note that those type plans are being designed by Spanish or Israeli firms. It would seem we went down the wrong road in this country trying to use large scale solar cell plants and now we are behind in the necessary technology.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

WisJim said:


> $2000 would buy about 200 to 400 watts, installed by a professional. It would provide effortless power and require almost no maintenance for 25+ years. Here in Wisconsin 400 watts of PVs would provide about 1.5 kwhrs of electricity per day on an annual basis, and in Arizona it would produce more, and it would produce the most on those sunny days when air conditioning would be used most. The solution to electrical power production is not more huge centralized power plants, no matter what the fuel, but power production on the site that uses the power.


I am in the process of installing myself a small solar system. A little over $2000 spend for materials in November. I have two 85 watt panels, controller, inverter and four 6 volt batteries. Prices seem to be going up rapidly.

I agree about small scale, but a huge reeducation process is necessary in the country before it will happen. The majority of people will not make that kind of capital outlay. Perhaps what is more important, they will not put forward the minimal effort to maintain their system. All they want to do is throw the light switch and maybe whine a little about the cost of power.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

A lot of folks talk about conservation.I dont like that word,sounds like you are giving something up by using less.

I like the word efficiency better .Just replacing everyones refer and freezer with Danfoss compressors would save a LOT of generating needs.Hate the idea of regulations but this is an area,and power use in general where regulation really needs to be done.And DEMAND better efficiency.

Also start up costs are high with solar,but add on panel costs are less when you overbuild the SYSTEM from the getgo looking towards your future plant.Then at todays price you can still get panels at 4.00/watt,but you really have to shop around and negotiate.Thats one thing I really like about solar is sellers will negotiate price and if they can make a sale at a profit,they will do so.

I think the biggest bang for the buck in energy costs/use for the whole country can be found in light bulbs and refrigeration and insulation.There are still big gains to made there.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

WisJim said:


> $2000 would buy about 200 to 400 watts, installed by a professional. It would provide effortless power and require almost no maintenance for 25+ years. Here in Wisconsin 400 watts of PVs would provide about 1.5 kwhrs of electricity per day on an annual basis, and in Arizona it would produce more, and it would produce the most on those sunny days when air conditioning would be used most. The solution to electrical power production is not more huge centralized power plants, no matter what the fuel, but power production on the site that uses the power.


Ideally I agree with you Jim.But big solar plants are the best way to go for now I think.People still want completely effortless power.

Another thing on costs.How many people with solar have you met who regret it? I havent met one yet.They are few.

In my case solar is on the motorhome.Its really nice that it can sit for months with zero attention,I go to it and its fully charged and ready.Makes me smile everytime.

At Buds offgrid home we watch those amps start piling up every day the sun shines,yep,we smile.A lot! Try starting (Cranking) that greasy smelly piece of work diesel genny that sprays oil and fumes and is LOUD and cost every time it starts,OH YEAH! You smile a lot!

Once that power is being produced not many people want their money back.

That said then solar is actually quite cost effective to most owners in more ways than just kw/hr costs.Also in inflation proofing power,self reliance,etc. all are part of the cost equation.

Makes me smile more than a new car does,requires far less maintenance,far less ongoing costs,far less depreciation.Yet folks dont freak out over car costs,and solar owners realize you get a better return putting the same cash into a system.

Mighty hard not to love it once youve taken the plunge.I look forward to dropping 10 grand into it ASAP when we find our offgrid home.:bouncy:


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Explorer said:


> I know, I live here and posted that article. It is interesting to note that those type plans are being designed by Spanish or Israeli firms. It would seem we went down the wrong road in this country trying to use large scale solar cell plants and now we are behind in the necessary technology.


Take Israel for example.We may have R+D the tech,but because of our power structure it wasnt feasible to market.In Israel,with no power sources it makes a Lot of sense.

I think thats why other countries have a lead in thermal solar construction companies,not because of our use of a few solar cell generating plants,but political/fiscal considerations that favor other fuel sources period.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

mightybooboo said:


> A lot of folks talk about conservation.I dont like that word,sounds like you are giving something up by using less.
> 
> I like the word efficiency better .Just replacing everyones refer and freezer with Danfoss compressors would save a LOT of generating needs.Hate the idea of regulations but this is an area,and power use in general where regulation really needs to be done.And DEMAND better efficiency.
> 
> ...



We are in agreement on this. I have been negotiating with several suppliers for two additional panels and I just bought them today. Two more 85 watt panels at $4.83 a watt or $410 per panel.

I had my home built five years ago and it is very energy efficient. Total year energy costs (electric, propane and wood pellets) are a little over $1000 a year for 2500 sqft livable space. That is heating, cooking, gas dryer and air conditioning in a four season climate. I am at 6000 feet in zone 6b. Most neighbors with homes built about the same time are at over $3600 per year. I am not doing solar for cost savings although there will be some (my year round electric is about $350 a year) now and more in the future.

The big plus for me is that it is educational and I am having fun putting it together by myself.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> Take the Iraq money and do a Manhattan Project on renewable power,that too would make a HUGE difference to our country and create jobs and clean our air and environment,and save lives too.
> 
> Most likely have powerful good political returns to us too if we didnt spend our time fueling wars in the Middle East.
> 
> ...


Ain't that right...i would guess that with a few hundred billion (a few trillion before we finally get out of Iraq, in about 5 more years) we COULD have electric cars, high speed rail trains. and maybe even startrek transporters.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I'd just like to have a dicussion about alternative energy without it tuirning into a "I HATE BUSH" thread.














Oh BTW, I hate bush


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Not about hating Bush,its about poor energy policy.

War and energy=Bad policy.Very bad policy.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Whining about WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA doesn't solve anything

DEAL WITH IT


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

Dang, WWW, don't yell!


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Fine,you win.

War for energy is GOOD energy policy.

Happy now?

Sorry,Politics DOES affect energy policy.

Saying it doesnt wont change the fact that it does,nor invalidate the discussion of same by throwing a tantrum for bringing it up..


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

ladycat your right, . . No it can't be done.......

Because . . . .
The lobbyests are so into all the politio cats that all we get are millions of pontificating *words* (very hot BS air)


Don't you be rocking the well *oiled* boat.

Might have to sic some clinton problem solvers on ...YOU....


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