# HMS Navy ship. All sailors vaccinated.



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The news media story...









HMS Queen Elizabeth: Covid outbreak on Navy flagship


There have been around 100 cases on HMS Queen Elizabeth, the BBC has been told.



www.bbc.com





The rest of the story is that I have a relative on that ship. The actual infection rate is about four times what the news article says. Some very sick, some sick like having a cold, some with no symptoms.

100% are saying why the frick did we have the fracking vaccinations. (you know how sailors talk)


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Prayers said for your relative. 

And that exactly is why the CDC says vaccinated people don't need to be tested. They still want to deny breakthrough cases are more common than they want us to believe.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Seems like a ship would be a good place to conduct a drug test, and that is what this whole thing is, a test.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I guess we need to get two of each just to be safe.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

po boy said:


> I guess we need to get two of each just to be safe.


 I got the virus and didn't feel very bad but went to the local health dept. and tested and had the virus and they gave me the shot and one later. No more virus now. Yes i would hope all get the shots to protect your family and others, Common sense. Time to stop this virus. How many people have to die before people wake up and get the shot. If many people get virus the U.S. government will pass a bill making all get the shot. Yes the U.S. government can pass a bill making all get the shot. When a kid we had to get a shot for virus that was taking many lives and the U.S. government passed a bill saying all people must get the shot. We had our shots in the country school. All kids got the shot. That stopped the bad virus that was killing many people at that time.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

101pigs said:


> I got the virus and didn't feel very bad but went to the local health dept. and tested and had the virus and they gave me the shot and one later. No more virus now. Yes i would hope all get the shots to protect your family and others, Common sense. Time to stop this virus. How many people have to die before people wake up and get the shot. If many people get virus the U.S. government will pass a bill making all get the shot. Yes the U.S. government can pass a bill making all get the shot. When a kid we had to get a shot for virus that was taking many lives and the U.S. government passed a bill saying all people must get the shot. We had our shots in the country school. All kids got the shot. That stopped the bad virus that was killing many people at that time.


It is not a vaccination it is a gene therapy.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

101pigs said:


> I got the virus and didn't feel very bad but went to the local health dept. and tested and had the virus and they gave me the shot and one later. No more virus now. Yes i would hope all get the shots to protect your family and others, Common sense. Time to stop this virus. How many people have to die before people wake up and get the shot. If many people get virus the U.S. government will pass a bill making all get the shot. Yes the U.S. government can pass a bill making all get the shot. When a kid we had to get a shot for virus that was taking many lives and the U.S. government passed a bill saying all people must get the shot. We had our shots in the country school. All kids got the shot. That stopped the bad virus that was killing many people at that time.


When i went in the military shots were required in order to serve in the military. If you refused the shot you didn't serve in the military. Still required to get vaccinated when going in the military or else you don't get in.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

101pigs said:


> I got the virus and didn't feel very bad but went to the local health dept. and tested and had the virus and they gave me the shot and one later. No more virus now. Yes i would hope all get the shots to protect your family and others, Common sense. Time to stop this virus. How many people have to die before people wake up and get the shot. If many people get virus the U.S. government will pass a bill making all get the shot. Yes the U.S. government can pass a bill making all get the shot. When a kid we had to get a shot for virus that was taking many lives and the U.S. government passed a bill saying all people must get the shot. We had our shots in the country school. All kids got the shot. That stopped the bad virus that was killing many people at that time.


I had a health checkup a few days ago and my PCP asked if I had been vaxed and said no. The PCP told me that they would not advise me to get it as they had not been vaxed.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You do not have to be vaccinated for anything in this country. You can decline. It’s called freedom.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You do not have to be vaccinated for anything in this country. You can decline. It’s called freedom.


You can decline, but you might not get into the military, or school, or college or wherever else they require proof of vaccine. If you’re in the military already and they ship you off to east bugsquat, I thought they could compel you to be vaccinated against whatever is endemic where you’re going. One persons freedom doesn’t trump everyone else’s.
Wow…looks like they can force vaccination according to the military attorney.








Forced Vaccinations in the Army - The Law Office of Matthew Barry


Soldiers often wonder about forced vaccinations in the Army. Attorney Matthew Barry, an experienced military lawyer, explains here.




mattbarrylaw.com


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It is not a vaccination it is a gene therapy.


It’s not. 








Why mRNA vaccines aren't gene therapies - Genomics Education Programme


We bust another Covid-19 myth – this time about how mRNA vaccines work – in our latest blog post




www.genomicseducation.hee.nhs.uk


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It's called freedom. If you don't understand it, that's ok. Those who opt out of vaccinations do understand it, and they attend public schools. I will not take the time to explain it. You might want to look it up.

The military is made up of folks who have made those decisions to opt IN. That was their freedom/choice.

Unfortunately, this man-made fear factor "pandemic" has convinced an amazing number of people to forget what this country was founded on, AND that one person's freedom to choose is valuable.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It is not a vaccination it is a gene therapy.


Get the vaccination or not, it should be each individual's choice, but don't use misinformation to try to convince people one way or the other. Gene therapy changes a person's DNA. mRNA vaccines can in no way alter your DNA, so they are not gene therapy.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> The news media story...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It isn't hard to understand a virus being spread more readily on a ship. It seems to be an almost perfect climate for it. Either way, I hope your relative, and the others on the ship, recover quickly and without long term effects.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Thank you. I really had NOT intended to prompt a rehash of every argument about it. It was simply interesting that the near total failure of the vaccine is being misreported.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

100 infections of 3700 is within the percentage of effectiveness. It is also much easier to get a higher level of infection in such closed spaces. This is not a failure of the vaccine.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

todd_xxxx said:


> Get the vaccination or not, it should be each individual's choice, but don't use misinformation to try to convince people one way or the other. Gene therapy changes a person's DNA. mRNA vaccines can in no way alter your DNA, so they are not gene therapy.


I believe I read that the J&J vaccine uses traditional virus based technology, which may be an option for some who are uncomfortable with the mRNA vaccines.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It's called freedom. If you don't understand it, that's ok. Those who opt out of vaccinations do understand it, and they attend public schools. I will not take the time to explain it. You might want to look it up.
> 
> The military is made up of folks who have made those decisions to opt IN. That was their freedom/choice.
> 
> Unfortunately, this man-made fear factor "pandemic" has convinced an amazing number of people to forget what this country was founded on, AND that one person's freedom to choose is valuable.


The fact that I disagree with you doesn’t mean I don’t understand freedom.
Whether it not an anti vaxxer can attend school depends on the state and if the parent is a liar.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> 100 infections of 3700 is within the percentage of effectiveness. It is also much easier to get a higher level of infection in such closed spaces. This is not a failure of the vaccine.


And according to the articles I’ve read, no one infected was ill enough to be admitted to sick bay. It sounds like the vaccine is working.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

The military doesn't force vaccinations on members of the military. Hubby spend 21 years in the service and was stuck more times then he cares to remember with all kinds of vaccinations against this and that. He finally said "no more". He stayed in, no backlash for saying "no" to another needle. What I can't understand is that so many people feel like EVERYONE must be vaccinated with a vaccine that doesn't have full approval of the FDA, YET many of these same people won't get their children immunized against Measles, Mumps, and such. Why are they free to choose not to get their children vaccinated yet want to force everyday people to get a shot or two on something that isn't fully tested?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Thank you. I really had NOT intended to prompt a rehash of every argument about it. It was simply interesting that the near total failure of the vaccine is being misreported.


According to Banbury Guardian, about 100 sailors across the CSG have tested positive, not all on the HMS Queen Elizabeth. So, 100 of 3700. 

"The outbreak was discovered through routine testing, and the Royal Navy has stressed that measures were put in place to deal with such an incident, and routine activity on the ships will continue. 
Sailors aboard several ships in the fleet have been affected, but there are reports that the USS The Sullivans from the US Navy and the HNLMS Evertsen, a Dutch frigate, have not suffered an outbreak.
Around 3,700 personnel are part of the CSG, which is made up of six Royal Navy ships, a Royal Navy submarine, a US Navy destroyer and a Dutch frigate.
It is unclear exactly how the outbreak has happened and investigation will be launched. 
There have been reports that sailors returning from shore leave from Cyprus could be the cause. 
A spokesperson for the Royal Navy confirmed that all CSG personnel have had two doses of Covid vaccine. 

They also said there are a range of mitigation measures on board, including masks, social distancing and a track and trace system.
They said: "As part of routine testing, a small number of crew from the Carrier Strike Group have tested positive for Covid-19.
"The Carrier Strike Group will continue to deliver their operational tasks and there are no effects on the deployment."


*How many crew members are on the HMS Queen Elizabeth?*
HMS Queen Elizabeth is the joint largest and most powerful vessel ever constructed for the Royal Navy.
The warship departed from Portsmouth Naval Base in May 2021, with the Queen and the prime minister both onboard before it embarked on its first journey. 
The aircraft carrier, along with its sister ship HMS Prince of Wales, cost more than £6bn.


It is not clear how many crew members are currently aboard the HMS Queen Elizabeth. 
The aircraft carrier tends to have between 700 and 1600 crew onboard, depending on the nature of its operations. 
As the SCG is currently accompanied by naval helicopters and F35B fighter jets from both the US Marine Corps and RAF, it is likely that the vessel is close to being fully manned. 
Around 100 sailors across the CSG have been taken ill with Covid. 
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has said that none of the sailors who’ve tested positive for Covid have been seriously affected by the virus."

Full story here: Banbury Guardian


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The last two people that I know personally who have contracted the Wuflu had been fully vaccinated. And they both ended up in the ICU, one for 15 days. That doesn't prove anything, but it makes me scratch my head....


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

hiddensprings said:


> The military doesn't force vaccinations on members of the military. Hubby spend 21 years in the service and was stuck more times then he cares to remember with all kinds of vaccinations against this and that. He finally said "no more". He stayed in, no backlash for saying "no" to another needle. What I can't understand is that so many people feel like EVERYONE must be vaccinated with a vaccine that doesn't have full approval of the FDA, YET many of these same people won't get their children immunized against Measles, Mumps, and such. Why are they free to choose not to get their children vaccinated yet want to force everyday people to get a shot or two on something that isn't fully tested?


Not sure what vaccination he said "no" to, but the military can, and does, mandate vaccines. The anthrax was one of the vaccines mandated for people deploying to some locations while I was in, and if you "declined" to get it, you were court-martialed and/or separated. That is just one example, there are many.

Here is the list you get for the Army, in basic training. Notice the words "required" and "administered to all recruits regardless of prior history":

*Army Shots List*

Vaccination AgentRemarksAdenovirus, Types 4 and 7Influenza (Flu Shot)Recruits receive this shot in basic only during the designated flu season (October – March)MeaslesMeasles Mumps and rubella (MMR) are administered to all recruits regardless of prior history.MeningococcalQuadrivalent meningococcal vaccine (containing A, C, Y, and W-135 polysaccharide antigens) is administered on a one-time basis to recruits. The vaccine is given as soon as practicable after in-processing or training. This vaccine is required routinely only for recruits, although its use may be indicated in other situations based on transmission potential and risk of contracting meningococcal disease.MumpsMeasles Mumps and rubella (MMR) are administered to all recruits regardless of prior history.PolioA single dose of trivalent OPV is administered to all enlisted accessions. Officer candidates, ROTC cadets, and other Reserve Components on initial active duty for training receive a single dose of OPV unless prior booster immunization as an adult is documented.RubellaMeasles Mumps and rubella (MMR) are administered to all recruits regardless of prior history.Tetanus-diphtheriaA primary series of tetanus-diphtheria (Td) toxoid is initiated for all recruits lacking a reliable history of prior immunization in accordance with existing ACIP guidelines. Individuals with previous history of Td immunization receive a booster dose upon entry to active duty and subsequently in accordance with ACIP requirements.

from USArmybasic.com


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

hiddensprings said:


> The military doesn't force vaccinations on members of the military. Hubby spend 21 years in the service and was stuck more times then he cares to remember with all kinds of vaccinations against this and that. He finally said "no more". He stayed in, no backlash for saying "no" to another needle. What I can't understand is that so many people feel like EVERYONE must be vaccinated with a vaccine that doesn't have full approval of the FDA, YET many of these same people won't get their children immunized against Measles, Mumps, and such. Why are they free to choose not to get their children vaccinated yet want to force everyday people to get a shot or two on something that isn't fully tested?


Military law says otherwise. If they really want you stuck, you’ll get stuck.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Some might get sick, but not like this 24 year old who was a vaccine skeptic...until he had a double lung transplant. 
24-year-old who needed double lung transplant wishes he'd been vaccinated for COVID-19 (yahoo.com)


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You do not have to be vaccinated for anything in this country. You can decline. It’s called freedom.


That is right ... However if you refuse to be vaccinated if going in the military you will not be in the MIlitary. Just like when i was young and in grade school if you did not get vaccinated you were not allowed to enter school. Same as work places no vaccinated no work. That was the law back many years ago. Everyone in our country school including teacher got their shot. Same today in the military when going in military requires folks get shots before going to boot camp. All members in the military get vaccinated when going in.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Lisa in WA said:


> Military law says otherwise. If they really want you stuck, you’ll get stuck.


When i went to Turkey i got more shots for virus in Turkey. When in Asia i got more shots for virus there. If you refuse to get the shot you are discharged from the military. For this virus today it is not required for all military people to get the shot if they don't want it. That could change depends how bad the virus gets. No you do not have to get the shot. However the government can keep you out of school, work places, churches etc. if you do not get the shot. That is the law in the U.S.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

From what I've been told the military is concerned with the fact that the vax is not FDA approved yet.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

101pigs said:


> When i went to Turkey i got more shots for virus in Turkey. When in Asia i got more shots for virus there. If you refuse to get the shot you are discharged from the military. For this virus today it is not required for all military people to get the shot if they don't want it. That could change depends how bad the virus gets. No you do not have to get the shot. However the government can keep you out of school, work places, churches etc. if you do not get the shot. That is the law in the U.S.


When i said that is the law i mean if the government makes it a law that you have to get the shot to go to some places where there is humans close together. Here in Missouri and some other states that only 30% of the people have had the shot there is a very big increase in the last two weeks that's getting the virus.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Just as an intellectual exercise, I will share my personal thoughts that are worth what you pay for them about the Wuflu vaccine. I was optimistic that an effective vaccine would be developed rapidly, because it was obvious this virus was engineered. 

I was terribly concerned the first vaccine that was developed would be either poorly tolerated or not effective for those most susceptible to it. But, it would be effective and well tolerated for younger, healthy people and that would have left me with quite the moral dilemma. The closer the vaccines got to EUA and the more data they shared made that moral dilemma less likely to be a moral dilemma, particularly for those of us that have had the disease.

Then came the disinformation about the vaccine is more effective than acquired immunity. Then came the information suppression about reactions to the vaccine. Then there was enough credible information that potentially effective treatments were discredited just to get the EUA. Now, they are pushing the vaccine on children that have, statistically, slim chance of being harmed by the virus.

If you want the shot, get the shot. But, all you folks that don't have any idea what you are talking about, you are wasting your time and energy trying to coerce people.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

101pigs said:


> When i went in the military shots were required in order to serve in the military. If you refused the shot you didn't serve in the military. Still required to get vaccinated when going in the military or else you don't get in.


Same here, but I don't think any of those shots were experimental.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Hiro is correct. 

The subtle points of my original post were missed. I will refrain from sharing. 

Thank you, Hiro.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Try forcing that experimental garbage on me or mine and see what you’ll get...


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Try forcing that experimental garbage on me or mine and see what you’ll get...


reddit/iamverybadass


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> And according to the articles I’ve read, no one infected was ill enough to be admitted to sick bay. It sounds like the vaccine is working.


If you mean working in terms of a placebo so that stupid sheep don't question what is basically a cold that was over hyped in order to steal an election, then yes. The military has a lot of people that are not in a high risk category. Seeing low rates of severity in such a study group should not be confused with vaccine efficacy.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It's called freedom. If you don't understand it, that's ok. Those who opt out of vaccinations do understand it, and they attend public schools. I will not take the time to explain it. You might want to look it up.
> 
> The military is made up of folks who have made those decisions to opt IN. That was their freedom/choice.
> 
> Unfortunately, this man-made fear factor "pandemic" has convinced an amazing number of people to forget what this country was founded on, AND that one person's freedom to choose is valuable.


Vaccination really shouldn't be a political issue, yet it undeniably is. The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 election may are remarkably similar. But both Trump and his wife were vaccinated before leaving office. Go figure.

And new hospitalization data demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccines. With the nation as a whole, 99.2% of covid hospital admittance was patients who arrived unvaccinated. In Los Angeles County it's 100%. Unvaccinated people remain unvaccinated at their own peril. 

I just don't see how this issue became political, or even what political statement is being made by refusing vaccination.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> If you mean working in terms of a placebo so that stupid sheep don't question what is basically a cold that was over hyped in order to steal an election, then yes. The military has a lot of people that are not in a high risk category. Seeing low rates of severity in such a study group should not be confused with vaccine efficacy.


I didn't know that the military asked what recruits wanted. I knew people who were sent to Vietnam. They described how they had to pass through a gauntlet of corpsmen delivering a dozen or more vaccines. They were never asked what they wanted. Would they have been allowed to refuse a vaccine back then if they stayed in the states?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Vaccination really shouldn't be a political issue, yet it undeniably is. The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 election may are remarkably similar. But both Trump and his wife were vaccinated before leaving office. Go figure.
> 
> And new hospitalization data demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccines. With the nation as a whole, 99.2% of covid hospital admittance was patients who arrived unvaccinated. In Los Angeles County it's 100%. Unvaccinated people remain unvaccinated at their own peril.
> 
> I just don't see how this issue became political, or even what political statement is being made by refusing vaccination.


I believe you just made it political just as quick as you could. I'm not debating that vaccines are a good idea but perhaps you can explain how New Zealand has achieved such great success with low vaccination rates and no interest in US politics?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

barnbilder said:


> If you mean working in terms of a placebo so that stupid sheep don't question what is basically a cold that was over hyped in order to steal an election, then yes. The military has a lot of people that are not in a high risk category. Seeing low rates of severity in such a study group should not be confused with vaccine efficacy.


What a burden it must be to see everything so clearly while being surrounded by all of us poor dumb sheep that are blind to the facts that are so clearly self-evident.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I have a sort of naivety when it comes to understanding the reasoning behind some positions. It can't always be about the person.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I believe you just made it political just as quick as you could. I'm not debating that vaccines are a good idea but perhaps you can explain how New Zealand has achieved such great success with low vaccination rates and no interest in US politics?


I don't know, but the US State Department has issued a covid-19 level 1 travel advisory for New Zealand.





__





New Zealand Travel Advisory







travel.state.gov


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> I have a sort of naivety when it comes to understanding the reasoning behind some positions. It can't always be about the person.


I think it would be great if people could just look at the information available, decide for themselves if they want the vaccine, and everyone else would just mind their own business. I have never tried to talk anyone into getting the vaccine, but I'm ready to slap the $hit out of the next person that calls me a sheep for getting it.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Vaccination really shouldn't be a political issue, yet it undeniably is. The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 election may are remarkably similar. But both Trump and his wife were vaccinated before leaving office. Go figure.
> 
> And new hospitalization data demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccines. With the nation as a whole, 99.2% of covid hospital admittance was patients who arrived unvaccinated. In Los Angeles County it's 100%. Unvaccinated people remain unvaccinated at their own peril.
> 
> I just don't see how this issue became political, or even what political statement is being made by refusing vaccination.


One point, the states with the highest rates seem to be on the border or next to border states. The illegals don't seem to be vaccinated.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

no really said:


> One point, the states with the highest rates seem to be on the border or next to border states. The illegals don't seem to be vaccinated.


BeckersHospitalReview

As of Jun 1st:

*States ranked by COVID-19 cases: May 5*
Erica Carbajal - Updated Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 Print  | Email

Share

Listen

North Dakota has the most confirmed COVID-19 cases per 100,000 population of all U.S. states, while Hawaii has the fewest, according to an analysis by _The New York Times._
The _Times_ used data from reports of COVID-19 cases and deaths by U.S. states and counties. 
The database includes cases and deaths that have been identified by public health officials as probable coronavirus patients, which means they did not have confirmed cases but were evaluated using criteria developed by national and local governments. State populations are based on 2019 data from the U.S. Census Bureau. 
Here is a breakdown of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 population in all 50 states and the District of Columbia, as of 8 a.m. CST May 5:
North Dakota — 14,165 per 100,000 population
Population: 762,062 residents
Rhode Island — 14,058 per 100,000
Population: 1.1 million
South Dakota — 13,901 per 100,000
Population: 884,659
Utah — 12,432 per 100,000
Population: 3.2 million
Tennessee — 12,231 per 100,000
Population: 6.8 million
Arizona — 11,888 per 100,000
Population: 7.3 million
Iowa — 11,604 per 100,000
Population: 3.2 million
Nebraska — 11,398 per 100,000
Population: 1.9 million
Wisconsin — 11,389 per 100,000
Population: 5.8 million
Oklahoma — 11,347 per 100,000
Population: 4 million
South Carolina — 11,289 per 100,000
Population: 5.1 million
New Jersey — 11,281 per 100,000
Population: 8.9 million
Arkansas — 11,149 per 100,000
Population: 3 million
Indiana — 10,807 per 100,000
Population: 6.7 million
Delaware — 10,804 per 100,000
Population: 973,764
Alabama — 10,785 per 100,000
Population: 4.9 million
Kansas — 10,700 per 100,000
Population: 2.9 million
Illinois — 10,635 per 100,000
Population: 12.7 million
New York — 10,578 per 100,000
Population: 19.4 million
Idaho — 10,537 per 100,000
Population: 1.8 million
Mississippi — 10,504 per 100,000
Population: 3 million
Florida — 10,474 per 100,000
Population: 21.5 million
Minnesota — 10,310 per 100,000
Population: 5.6 million
Nevada — 10,282 per 100,000
Population: 3.1 million
Montana — 10,239 per 100,000
Population: 1.1 million
Georgia — 10,176 per 100,000
Population: 10.6 million
Wyoming — 10,085 per 100,000
Population: 578,759
Kentucky — 10,060 per 100,000
Population: 4.5 million
Massachusetts — 10,048 per 100,000
Population: 6.9 million
Texas — 10,016 per 100,000
Population: 30 million
Louisiana — 9,902 per 100,000
Population: 4.6 million
Missouri — 9,834 per 100,000
Population: 6.1 million
Connecticut — 9,563 per 100,000
Population: 3.6 million
Michigan — 9,493 per 100,000
Population: 10 million
California — 9,488 per 100,000
Population: 39.5 million
New Mexico — 9,470 per 100,000
Population: 2.1 million
North Carolina — 9,367 per 100,000 
Population: 10.5 million
Alaska — 9,290 per 100,000
Population: 731,545
Ohio — 9,216 per 100,000
Population: 11.7 million
Pennsylvania — 9,110 per 100,000
Population: 12.8 million
Colorado — 9,004 per 100,000
Population: 5.8 million
West Virginia — 8,624 per 100,000
Population: 1.8 million
Virginia — 7,764 per 100,000
Population: 8.5 million
Maryland — 7,447 per 100,000
Population: 6 million


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Highest increases, as of July 13, per Healthline.com


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It is political inherently. No way for it not to be. Saying that "it shouldn't be political" is naive.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It is political inherently. No way for it not to be. Saying that "it shouldn't be political" is naive.


Only if you buy into all the nonsense surrounding it. In the broadest terms, it seems more conservative people are against the vaccine, and more liberals are for it. I'm a conservative-leaning person that got the vaccine. Politics didn't play into my decision. I read the research that was available to me, weighed the pros and cons, and made my decision. I don't care at all what either political group or party or spokesperson thinks. My own opinion of course, but that seems to me the only valid way to make this decision. Deciding based on which political party you follow, which media outlet, and the "news" on media, and especially social media, seems silly to me.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

todd_xxxx said:


> reddit/iamverybadass


In real life i am that!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Vaccination really shouldn't be a political issue, yet it undeniably is. The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 election may are remarkably similar. But both Trump and his wife were vaccinated before leaving office. Go figure.
> 
> And new hospitalization data demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccines. With the nation as a whole, 99.2% of covid hospital admittance was patients who arrived unvaccinated. In Los Angeles County it's 100%. Unvaccinated people remain unvaccinated at their own peril.
> 
> I just don't see how this issue became political, or even what political statement is being made by refusing vaccination.


Democrats made it political.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think it would be great if people could just look at the information available, decide for themselves if they want the vaccine, and everyone else would just mind their own business. I have never tried to talk anyone into getting the vaccine, but I'm ready to slap the $hit out of the next person that calls me a sheep for getting it.


Ill be your huckleberry!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

todd_xxxx said:


> Highest increases, as of July 13, per Healthline.com
> 
> View attachment 98193


California is a republican state? Yet has a 110% increase in cases?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think it would be great if people could just look at the information available, decide for themselves if they want the vaccine, and everyone else would just mind their own business. I have never tried to talk anyone into getting the vaccine, but I'm ready to slap the $hit out of the next person that calls me a sheep for getting it.


I completely agree. I haven't got it yet and likely will after I get a chance to talk with my doctor and I'm equally as annoyed with being called an anti vaxxer, flat earther, Trumpster, etc. 

My reasons for delaying were simply based on my concern for having to drive 60 miles to a city with super high infection rates, only to stand in line for hours on end with countless others who may or may not be infected when I could wait for it to become available locally. 

I'm a firm supporter of 'my body, my choice,' and believe that people should not be strong arming others to vaccinate or not vaccinate.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> Highest increases, as of July 13, per Healthline.com
> 
> View attachment 98193


Tennessee is 30th in active cases.










United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer


United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




www.worldometers.info


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Lisa in WA said:


> It’s not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

po boy said:


> Tennessee is 30th in active cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't see where anyone said it wasn't, so I guess I missed your point?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I seen no reason to be annoyed at folks who call you an anti-vaxer. It’s simply their opinion. Being annoyed surrenders your power.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It is political inherently. No way for it not to be. Saying that "it shouldn't be political" is naive.


How is it political?

@Nevada blamed Trump. Trump got the shot.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I seen on reason to be annoyed at folks who call you an anti-vaxer. It’s simply their opinion. Being annoyed surrenders your power.


Doesn't that apply to pretty much anything anyone calls you?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes. There is an old rhyme about that. 

Sticks and stones.....


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

When the name calling starts, the chances of a further productive discussion diminishes.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Agree. As a debate coach, I find it disappointing. 
Maybe we should remind folks to “use their inside voice and nice words.”

The above is intended to be humor.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> @Nevada blamed Trump. Trump got the shot.


I didn't blame Trump. I just pointed out that Trump got the vaccine.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I didn't blame Trump. I just pointed out that Trump got the vaccine.


Yes you did


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think it would be great if people could just look at the information available, decide for themselves if they want the vaccine, and everyone else would just mind their own business. I have never tried to talk anyone into getting the vaccine, but I'm ready to slap the $hit out of the next person that calls me a sheep for getting it.


Oh,Look! We have a badass here!!!


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeffreyD said:


> Ill be your huckleberry!


Exactly what I had thought about saying, but I didn’t want anyone crying because words hurt them.😂


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I thought it was interesting that violence was the reaction of choice.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Try forcing that experimental garbage on me or mine and see what you’ll get...





Kiamichi Kid said:


> Oh,Look! We have a badass here!!!





Kiamichi Kid said:


> Exactly what I had thought about saying, but I didn’t want anyone crying because words hurt them.😂


Try not to choke on your hypocrisy there internet commando.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I thought it was interesting that violence was the reaction of choice.


I understand that anonymous cutting replies on internet forums are more in vogue currently.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Anonymous? I don’t think it means what you think it means.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Anonymous? I don’t think it means what you think it means.


Please, enlighten me as to what "anonymous" means.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Vaccination really shouldn't be a political issue, yet it undeniably is. The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 election may are remarkably similar. But both Trump and his wife were vaccinated before leaving office. Go figure.
> 
> And new hospitalization data demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccines. With the nation as a whole, 99.2% of covid hospital admittance was patients who arrived unvaccinated. In Los Angeles County it's 100%. Unvaccinated people remain unvaccinated at their own peril.
> 
> I just don't see how this issue became political, or even what political statement is being made by refusing vaccination.


Will let some one else do the math. But keep in mind less than 3 percent get seriously ill to start with. And that’s using the creative math and symptoms that were being used. Now you saying 99.2 percent of that. Still a very small number. 
Part of the political problem is in your post. 

“ The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 “

Lots of factors can be used and account for this. Yet some use politics as the reason.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Example: I am not anonymous.

None of my statements were made anonymously.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Example: I am not anonymous.
> 
> None of my statements were made anonymously.


My bad. I had no idea your name was actually Alice in TX/MO. I'm probably also wrong that you'll argue about nearly anything.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

todd_xxxx said:


> Try not to choke on your hypocrisy there internet commando.


Still got your panties in a twist? 😂


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Still got your panties in a twist? 😂


I think you're over-estimating your abilities.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Will let some one else do the math. But keep in mind less than 3 percent get seriously ill to start with. And that’s using the creative math and symptoms that were being used. Now you saying 99.2 percent of that. Still a very small number.


Comparing 3000 casualties on 9/11 to the total population of 330 million is also a very small number.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

todd_xxxx said:


> I think you're over-estimating your abilities.


Not in the least...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Comparing 3000 casualties on 9/11 to the total population of 330 million is also a very small number.


What did I miss? Where was the 9/11 comparison?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am Alice. I live in Texas most of the time, but Missouri part of the time. I have met a number of folks on the forum in person. 😃

My mom said that I would grow up to be “a guard house lawyer,” so you deduction is probably close to reality. I coached the debate teams when I taught in public school.

I will argue fine points to make a point.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

My mother considered me to be a "Philadelphia Lawyer" though I have yet to pass thru the place.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Vaccination really shouldn't be a political issue, yet it undeniably is. The states with the highest covid-19 illness are the same states that went for Trump in 2020. The similarities between the covid map and the 2020 election may are remarkably similar. But both Trump and his wife were vaccinated before leaving office. Go figure.
> 
> And new hospitalization data demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccines. With the nation as a whole, 99.2% of covid hospital admittance was patients who arrived unvaccinated. In Los Angeles County it's 100%. Unvaccinated people remain unvaccinated at their own peril.
> 
> I just don't see how this issue became political, or even what political statement is being made by refusing vaccination.


Funny you should bring that up (if not surprising in the least). Leaving the parties out of it, I think there’s an interesting observation to be made about the how the two sides have handled their view of the vaccination.

One side has more members who are skeptical of the vaccine and are hesitant to take it. Their side was in power during the development of the vaccine, but they were still skeptical of it. Now that the other side is in power, they remain skeptical at about the same levels.

The other side initially had very high levels of skepticism in the vaccine. In fact, several high ranking members of the team said they’d refuse to take it because it couldn’t be trusted. Now that their side is in power, that skepticism has all but completely dissolved, and they’re largely the ones pressuring others to get the vaccine.

I agree that it shouldn’t be a political issue, but it’s clear that it was made into one.

Which side did that?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> One side has more members who are skeptical of the vaccine and are hesitant to take it. Their side was in power during the development of the vaccine, but they were still skeptical of it. Now that the other side is in power, they remain skeptical at about the same levels.


But it's not just about the vaccine side effects. There is also the relative risk of death from the delta variants vs the risk of death from the vaccine. While I'll admit that we don't know everything we would like to know about the long term effects of the covid vaccines, we know the long term effect of being dead.

I know that younger people don't see a lot of risk of death from covid, since they are young and healthy. But the delta variant is changing that. It not only spreads faster, but is also more deadly. The delta variant also seems to infect a younger demographic.

There is no doubt that you have a lot better chance of surviving a covid vaccination than surviving a covid infection, regardless of how young & healthy you might be.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Nevada said:


> But it's not just about the vaccine side effects. There is also the relative risk of death from the delta variants vs the risk of death from the vaccine. While I'll admit that we don't know everything we would like to know about the long term effects of the covid vaccines, we know the long term effect of being dead.
> 
> I know that younger people don't see a lot of risk of death from covid, since they are young and healthy. But the delta variant is changing that. It not only spreads faster, but is also more deadly. The delta variant also seems to infect a younger demographic.
> 
> There is no doubt that you have a lot better chance of surviving a covid vaccination than surviving a covid infection, regardless of how young & healthy you might be.


I hope you can get your hip popped back into its socket after that pivot.

I’m not too afraid of the “Delta Variant”. I’ve been assured that we’re mobilizing all of our assets to ensure a more rapid ramp up and response to this one.

*Exhibit A:*


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Of course, underlying all if this, is a belief that humans SHOULD be able to control everything. Every freaking thing.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

How well did you control the spread of your flu, pneumonia, colds and assorted other contagions before the great panic of '20?
How many suffered and died from your goobery hands?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Nevada said:


> But it's not just about the vaccine side effects. There is also the relative risk of death from the delta variants vs the risk of death from the vaccine. While I'll admit that we don't know everything we would like to know about the long term effects of the covid vaccines, we know the long term effect of being dead.
> 
> I know that younger people don't see a lot of risk of death from covid, since they are young and healthy. But the delta variant is changing that. It not only spreads faster, but is also more deadly. The delta variant also seems to infect a younger demographic.
> 
> There is no doubt that you have a lot better chance of surviving a covid vaccination than surviving a covid infection, regardless of how young & healthy you might be.


More young children are dying from the new virus now in many states. 
Sad. when it could be prevented.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alabama military base 1st in U.S. to order troops to show COVID vaccine proof


The Delta variant is driving an uptick in COVID cases across the U.S.




www.axios.com





"The commanding general of Fort Rucker has announced that the Alabama military base will require service members not wearing face masks "to show proof of vaccination" while on duty to combat rising COVID-19 cases.

*Why it matters: *The order, issued Wednesday, makes Fort Rucker the "first military base in the continental" U.S. to permit leaders to "check the vaccination status of those in uniform," the Washington Post notes."


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No. Deaths from COVID ‘incredibly rare’ among children


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Over two weeks, 6/24/21-7/8/21, there was a <1% increase in the cumulated number of child COVID-19 cases (31,584 cases added (4,032,782 to 4,064,365))



https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Darn it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"The Requested Page Could Not Be Found"


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> What a burden it must be to see everything so clearly while being surrounded by all of us poor dumb sheep that are blind to the facts that are so clearly self-evident.


There are two types of people who hold your ideology. The ignorantly naive, and the evil who wish to do us harm. Both are threats to our great nation.

Covid 19 is an overhyped cold bug. Numbers are fudged. Your immune system will work. If you have outlived or outpartied your immune system, you might want to get a shot, or consider bubble living, or maybe get right with your maker. Covid-19 is allowing huge pharmaceutical companies to make billions, in return for some help with the hype, they get to walk away with billions from the whole world, under the guise of providing an untested and unwarranted load of snake oil. I'm sure the hope is, that these mega corporations remain loyal, help with future elections, and don't let power and greed drive them to further plans to enslave everyone.

But But, what about people in?? Well, they are basically pawns, as they have been for most of their existence. What about dead people? They were born looking for a way to die, and they found one, and covid may or may not have been involved. As long as we allow people who hold an ideology bent on our destruction to sign papers and write down numbers, none of those papers and numbers mean anything. We once lived in the age of science, and beneficial technological advancements, but that ship has sailed, like every ship that has come along since time began. Oh cool, steel, now how can we use it to make tools? Once greed and corruption step up to the plate we enslave those with knowledge of metal working, and make weapons to fuel conquest and enslavement.

There are a lot of really stupid people out there who don't really understand the darker qualities of human nature, or pretend not to because they intend to explore and implement them.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

barnbilder said:


> There are two types of people who hold your ideology. The ignorantly naive, and the evil who wish to do us harm. Both are threats to our great nation.
> 
> Covid 19 is an overhyped cold bug.


So, I have questions. What is my ideology, and am naive, or evil?

I work at a hospital. I wish you would have come and volunteered to help us with this cold at the peak of "cold season". For some reason, a lot more people died than during the cold seasons of the previous years. Then again, that probably isn't anything I saw every day, just media hype.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The reason that some people see a party divide for people taking the vaccine that was pushed quickly through regulatory hurdles by Donald Trump, is easily explained. People in the group seen as non vaxxers are typically wage earners, and essentials, or at least were for most of their lives. The handout people that "work" for the government, the ones who have been "working" from home, which means living in pajamas and only waking up to sign for booze deliveries, they believe that there was a disease, is a disease, and that that disease is an existential threat. Instead of going somewhere and pretending to work, they do their three emails in five minutes instead of eight hours and relax safely in their home. 

The rest of us, the essentials, are tired of having our necks urinated on and being told it is raining. Have been for some time. From way back. We lived through this entire pandemic, when few gas stations were open, and the ones that were did not have toilet paper. We ate sammiches with fragrant fingers and leaf fragments stuck to our nethers. And somehow we managed to keep civilization alive without dying ourselves during the most deadly disease known to man. Yes, we lean in a predictable direction, and yes, we think this disease is an over-hyped construct of greed and delusion. And yes, with an eighth grade understanding of biology, we figure we have already developed antibodies, not from vaccine, but from the several times we have been sick during the pandemic. We have already had the delta variant, probably some of us starting on the gamma variant already.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> So, I have questions. What is my ideology, and am naive, or evil?
> 
> I work at a hospital. I wish you would have come and volunteered to help us with this cold at the peak of "cold season". For some reason, a lot more people died than during the cold seasons of the previous years. Then again, that probably isn't anything I saw every day, just media hype.


Wow, a hospital that stayed open? Where at? Most of them were closed. They weren't accepting patients and laid off employees and let others "work" from home. Talked to many of them, while showing up at their houses to do service calls while they "worked" from home. 

Know several people that died from not being able to go to the doctor in a timely manner, know several people that died from suicide, know a lot of people that have been slowly dying from alcoholism, I know people that got killed by a repeat offender with no license that was driving to get drugs while he was released from jail on attempted murder charges, so he didn't get the covid. The only person I know that has died from the disease, instead of dying from the overreaction to the disease, had been in a home for the last five years, and had not been cognizant for the last ten. 

The flu shot had a lot of bowling pins set up just waiting for a ball.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No hospitals that I know of closed.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> No. Deaths from COVID ‘incredibly rare’ among children


The study was backed by data gathered before the delta variant became dominant From your link:

_Of 3,105 deaths from all causes among the 12 million or so people under 18 in England *between March 2020 and February 2021*, 25 were attributable to COVID-19 — a rate of about 2 for every million people in this age range. ._

The delta variant changes everything. Younger people are more susceptible and the illness is much more serious. The good news is that the vaccines are effective in preventing delta variant illness.

I think it's fair to say that the delta variant is causing a "pandemic of the unvaccinated."


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

barnbilder said:


> Wow, a hospital that stayed open? Where at? Most of them were closed. They weren't accepting patients and laid off employees and let others "work" from home. Talked to many of them, while showing up at their houses to do service calls while they "worked" from home.
> 
> Know several people that died from not being able to go to the doctor in a timely manner, know several people that died from suicide, know a lot of people that have been slowly dying from alcoholism, I know people that got killed by a repeat offender with no license that was driving to get drugs while he was released from jail on attempted murder charges, so he didn't get the covid. The only person I know that has died from the disease, instead of dying from the overreaction to the disease, had been in a home for the last five years, and had not been cognizant for the last ten.
> 
> The flu shot had a lot of bowling pins set up just waiting for a ball.


Exactly no hospitals that I heard about were closed. I work for one of the biggest hospital systems in the US.



barnbilder said:


> The reason that some people see a party divide for people taking the vaccine that was pushed quickly through regulatory hurdles by Donald Trump, is easily explained. People in the group seen as non vaxxers are typically wage earners, and essentials, or at least were for most of their lives. The handout people that "work" for the government, the ones who have been "working" from home, which means living in pajamas and only waking up to sign for booze deliveries, they believe that there was a disease, is a disease, and that that disease is an existential threat. Instead of going somewhere and pretending to work, they do their three emails in five minutes instead of eight hours and relax safely in their home.
> 
> The rest of us, the essentials, are tired of having our necks urinated on and being told it is raining. Have been for some time. From way back. We lived through this entire pandemic, when few gas stations were open, and the ones that were did not have toilet paper. We ate sammiches with fragrant fingers and leaf fragments stuck to our nethers. And somehow we managed to keep civilization alive without dying ourselves during the most deadly disease known to man. Yes, we lean in a predictable direction, and yes, we think this disease is an over-hyped construct of greed and delusion. And yes, with an eighth grade understanding of biology, we figure we have already developed antibodies, not from vaccine, but from the several times we have been sick during the pandemic. We have already had the delta variant, probably some of us starting on the gamma variant already.


That's a while lot of sweeping nonsense and generalities. And for the record, I work, have always work, don't work from home, and my education took me a bit farther than 8th grade biology. You're welcome to think anything you like, but to say covid is an over hyped cold is silly. You're trying to use a lot of dramatic speech to tell me the things I saw with my own eyes, every day for months, werent real. I have news for you, it's real, and it sure as hell isn't a cold. Get the shot, don't get the shot, do whatever you want, but don't try to say covid is just hype. The people I work with are real people, doctors and nurses and others, and none of them went into this work to make money or try to suppress information that would help heal people.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> But it's not just about the vaccine side effects. There is also the relative risk of death from the delta variants vs the risk of death from the vaccine. *While I'll admit that we don't know everything we would like to know about the long term effects of the covid vaccines*, we know the long term effect of being dead.


That is exactly the reason that I feel people should be allowed to make their own choices, free of coercion.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> No hospitals that I know of closed.


Well they didn't, but they might as well have, nobody was allowed to go to one. Else they might catch people falsifying death certificates. The only way you could get in is you were almost a sure thing for the coroner. If doctors would have told people to go home, get some rest and drink plenty of fluids, instead of believing the "it's not a cold" garbage, outcomes would have been much better. The human spirit has a lot of influence on human health. That's why the doctors don't say, gosh, I would hate to be you buddy, you'd be better off to save your money for funeral arrangements when they are treating cancer patients. Because it makes a difference. After the media onslaught, of course people were convinced they needed a ventilator instead of bed rest and fluids. You can talk yourself into being just as sick as you can imagine.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good grief.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

barnbilder said:


> Well they didn't, but they might as well have, nobody was allowed to go to one. Else they might catch people falsifying death certificates. The only way you could get in is you were almost a sure thing for the coroner. If doctors would have told people to go home, get some rest and drink plenty of fluids, instead of believing the "it's not a cold" garbage, outcomes would have been much better. The human spirit has a lot of influence on human health. That's why the doctors don't say, gosh, I would hate to be you buddy, you'd be better off to save your money for funeral arrangements when they are treating cancer patients. Because it makes a difference. After the media onslaught, of course people were convinced they needed a ventilator instead of bed rest and fluids. You can talk yourself into being just as sick as you can imagine.


Is that what the 8 th grade biology class taught you?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Kindergarten would teach you all you need to know about this cold, mainly about the people making it something else. If you are an astute learner.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm looking for the Snark Family Reunion? Conference Room B? Thank you.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

todd_xxxx said:


> …You're welcome to think anything you like, but to say covid is an over hyped cold is silly…


I’m tracking with most of what you’re saying, but this part is intellectually dishonest. A cold is exactly what COVID 19 is, and there’s been an unprecedented amount of hype generated off of it. Still, Original, Spicy, Delta V., or Seal Team Six Flavored; it is just another cold. Every years’ colds are different in terms of magnitude and transmissibility, and this one just happens to be our current one.

The only way this is truly something new is if it really was an engineered bio-weapon from a Chinese lab. That’s a possibility, but far from a certainty. Any other origin story makes it just another iteration in a continuum of cold virus evolution. We’ve had it before, and we’ll have it again.

It is a ‘first’ in a few other aspects, though, and, oddly enough, those aspects all just happen to be things that either made someone a heap of money, or cost someone a heap of money. Funny, that.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I’m tracking with most of what you’re saying, but this part is intellectually dishonest. A cold is exactly what COVID 19 is, and there’s been an unprecedented amount of hype generated off of it. Still, Original, Spicy, Delta V., or Seal Team Six Flavored; it is just another cold. Every years’ colds are different in terms of magnitude and transmissibility, and this one just happens to be our current one.
> 
> The only way this is truly something new is if it really was an engineered bio-weapon from a Chinese lab. That’s a possibility, but far from a certainty. Any other origin story makes it just another iteration in a continuum of cold virus evolution. We’ve had it before, and we’ll have it again.
> 
> It is a ‘first’ in a few other aspects, though, and, oddly enough, those aspects all just happen to be things that either made someone a heap of money, or cost someone a heap of money. Funny, that.


I guess we disagree, and I can tell you why. I've worked at the same hospital for almost ten years. I have seen, first hand, people dying from covid. I have never seen anyone die from a cold. Ever. We have one building that is a hospice unit. Every person there is going to die. That's why they are there. Hospice units are the last stop, and there is only one way you leave. I've seen people die from about everything you can think of, flu, pneumonia, various organ failures, heart disease, you name it. I have seen more people die of covid this last year than I have seen die of any cause any other year. You mentioned something in the other thread about being a skeptic. I'm with you. I don't believe what the CDC says, what WHO says, only some of what the AMA says, but I believe what I have seen with my own two eyes. I don't care who believes me, I don't care if people think I'm a shill for the CDC or any other nonsense, but no one, absolutely no one, is going to change my mind about what I have seen myself, and I have seen, for a fact, that this in no way resembles a cold. It's frankly exhausting when people who haven't seen it first hand tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and this year is no different than any other, it's all just a political plot. This has been politicized, and to a ridiculous extent, but in no way is it not real. I think that's about all the energy I have left for this subject.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Comparing 3000 casualties on 9/11 to the total population of 330 million is also a very small number.


Yep. Also had nothing to do with each other. 

P.s. at least this country made the effort to account for 9/11. Would be nice if we did he same for coved and those who who wrecked the economy currently. Different thread for that I guess.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> But it's not just about the vaccine side effects. There is also the relative risk of death from the delta variants vs the risk of death from the vaccine. While I'll admit that we don't know everything we would like to know about the long term effects of the covid vaccines, we know the long term effect of being dead.
> 
> I know that younger people don't see a lot of risk of death from covid, since they are young and healthy. But the delta variant is changing that. It not only spreads faster, but is also more deadly. The delta variant also seems to infect a younger demographic.
> 
> There is no doubt that you have a lot better chance of surviving a covid vaccination than surviving a covid infection, regardless of how young & healthy you might be.


And your point ?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> The study was backed by data gathered before the delta variant became dominant From your link:
> 
> _Of 3,105 deaths from all causes among the 12 million or so people under 18 in England *between March 2020 and February 2021*, 25 were attributable to COVID-19 — a rate of about 2 for every million people in this age range. ._
> 
> ...


So?


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

To just quickly murky up the topic, specifically the assertion that covid is a bad cold.... this proclamation has a sliver of truth to it in that ~20% of "colds" are caused by a coronavirus. As we all well know by now, Covid-19 is a coronavirus so in that respect, the base viruses are similar. Much like various flus are built off the same base virus with components of H & N proteins - some combinations are more infectious, some are more lethal, some jump species but in general they are classified as flus


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

todd_xxxx said:


> …I have seen, first hand, people dying from covid. I have never seen anyone die from a cold. Ever. …I've seen people die from about everything you can think of, flu, pneumonia, various organ failures, heart disease, you name it. I have seen more people die of covid this last year than I have seen die of any cause any other year. …and I have seen, for a fact, that this in no way resembles a cold…


_
Sorry in advance for the heavy edit, but I wanted to focus on one point, and that point happened to be spread across your post. Nothing in the edit is changed or rearranged, or intended to lead or construct anything. It just gets the relevant sentences next to each other._

If you have worked in hospitals for 10 years, I’d place a cock-sure bet that you’d seen people die from the cold. Hundreds of thousands die from the cold every year, and folks that are in the hospital or hospice are usually the ones most vulnerable to it.

15-odd years ago, my grandmother died of lung cancer. She had a long fight with it, ending up in hospice. It was not something that was going to be cured, but it was managed for several years. What finally set her in hospice was a deep pneumonia, brought on by a cold. Her respiratory and immune systems were devastatingly weakened by the cancer and treatments, but the pneumonia killed her. I honestly don’t know what her death certificate said, but the doctors, nurses, and the whole family acknowledged that she died of lung cancer. Whether or not she shows up in the tally of cold-deaths that year, I have no idea, but it wouldn’t have mattered as we weren’t being pelted with the virus-death tolls on the nightly news at the time.

With this current cold virus, things are handled differently, though. The vast majority of those who have died from COVID were old, obese, had failing hearts or respiratory systems, cancer, auto-immune disorders, or any other number of ailments. This time around, no matter what put them in a position to be killed by the cold, they’re being tallied as COVID deaths.

The scary exception is the occasional otherwise healthy, relatively young person who has died from it. That’s got to be a scary experience, feeling young and healthy and suddenly degrading and slowly choking to death on fluid in your lungs, or having your heart swell and pound and give out on you. But, sad and horrific a way it is to die, it’s exactly how people die from a cold. It happens to thousands of unlucky young and/or healthy people every year.

You say that death from COVID in no way “resembles a cold”, but I wonder what you think death from a cold looks like. I’ve never seen a young person die from it, either, but I can’t imagine it’s pretty.

If you were to say that you’ve never seen someone you wouldn’t expect to being susceptible to dying from a cold dying from one, I could believe that. I can also believe that you‘ve seen that this year. That doesn’t shock me because this version certainly does seem to be an extra bad one. And, FWIW, I do assign value to your anecdote about working in hospitals and being shocked by how many people you’ve see die from this cold virus, but it is still just another of many anecdotes, both agreeing and disagreeing.

Unfortunately, all we have to go on is the anecdotes because the powers that be have seen fit to feed us horribly corrupted data, and the only thing we have to base our individual risk assessments on is what own guts sum out of the stories we hear and the things we see.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Just because someone works in a hospital does not add to their credibility on this matter, at least not for me. There are hundreds of roles in a hospital that do not involve direct patient interaction and even some that do have that personal interaction do not necessarily have the pertinent information to make an accurate assessment of their affliction. Take for example food workers, IT staff, procurement, accounting, custodial, etc. etc. ect.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Hospitals here didn't close. They stayed open for the covid surge and when that didn't happen sections were shut down and employees were laid off. Only life threatening treatments were performed at hospitals and doctors offices. In some cases life threatening treatments were postponed or cancelled which caused the death of some patients.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

sharkerbaby said:


> Just because someone works in a hospital does not add to their credibility on this matter, at least not for me. There are hundreds of roles in a hospital that do not involve direct patient interaction and even some that do have that personal interaction do not necessarily have the pertinent information to make an accurate assessment of their affliction. Take for example food workers, IT staff, procurement, accounting, custodial, etc. etc. ect.


The reason I mentioned that I worked at a hospital is because it gave me a first hand opportunity to see people that were dying of covid, every day, for months, something a lot of people don't seem to think is happening. I didn't say it gave me any credibility beyond that. I do think it gives me more credibility than people who claim the hospitals all closed down so that people couldn't see all the nefarious hospital workers falsifying death certificates, but I'm not sure anyone else agrees, so it's worth what it's worth.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

todd_xxxx said:


> The reason I mentioned that I worked at a hospital is because it gave me a first hand opportunity to see people that were dying of covid, every day, for months, something a lot of people don't seem to think is happening. I didn't say it gave me any credibility beyond that. I do think it gives me more credibility than people who claim the hospitals all closed down so that people *couldn't see all the nefarious hospital workers falsifying death certificates*, but I'm not sure anyone else agrees, so it's worth what it's worth.


So, we can see death certificates?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> _Sorry in advance for the heavy edit, but I wanted to focus on one point, and that point happened to be spread across your post. Nothing in the edit is changed or rearranged, or intended to lead or construct anything. It just gets the relevant sentences next to each other._
> 
> If you have worked in hospitals for 10 years, I’d place a cock-sure bet that you’d seen people die from the cold. Hundreds of thousands die from the cold every year, and folks that are in the hospital or hospice are usually the ones most vulnerable to it.
> 
> ...


Cause of death is not always an easy thing to determine. Did your grandmother die from lung cancer, pneumonia, or a cold? I can make the argument for any of those things. A person cuts a finger on something in a barn, infection sets in, turns to sepsis, and the person dies. You could say the person died from cutting their finger. Would you be wrong? That is what set everything in motion. People talk about covid and comorbidities, the most common ones being overweight or diabetic. So, if a person that is 100 lbs overweight gets covid and dies, what killed them? People talk about studies showing "covid only" deaths, but is that accurate? The person that gets covid and dies, but was also 100 lbs overweight may not have died if they weren't overweight, but they probably wouldn't have just been walking along and died right then if they hadn't gotten covid. I don't know the answers to this stuff. I do not that when someone posts something like "The vaccinations have killed more people than covid has." that they are just guessing, and have no data to back up what they said. I don't think we will ever know the true numbers of people that died of covid, but I've seen enough to made up my mind as to whether this is all hype or not.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

po boy said:


> So, we can see death certificates?


I don't understand what that has to do with anything, but death certificates are public record, so knock yourself out.

Does your question mean you actually believe hospitals closed down for that reason?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

todd_xxxx said:


> I do not that when someone posts something like "The vaccinations have killed more people than covid has." that they are just guessing, and have no data to back up what they said…


I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone post that. I’m not saying they didn’t. I just haven’t seen it. …or may have dismissed it out of hand. That said, if they are saying it, and it’s not real, they’re getting it from somewhere. If that source is exaggerating the dangers of the vaccine, it’s unfortunate. It’s also no different than those who report COVID death-counts from sources that are exaggerating the death-counts. Isn’t it? Or is it OK because that particular log of bologna was squeezed with our own best interests in mind, while the other log was squeezed by a bunch of orange-shaded doody-heads?

An interesting stat is emerging out of GB, today, that will be both alarming and informative if true. The Brits are reporting that 60% of their current hospitalizations are folks who’ve been “double vaccinated” (two-shot recipe, and not just the first in the series?).

The source I heard this from was in the other-than-CNN camp, so I had my normal skepticism (_as opposed to the predisposed dismissal I have for anything from the CNN camp_), and I looked it up. It appears to be a legitimate stat, or, at the very least, compelling testimonial. So, my initial assumption was that the two-poke rate amongst the Queen’s subjects must be in the 90+% range, and that bit of information being left out of the report was yet another case of media manipulation. So, I looked that up, too.

69% of Her Subjects have had a poke. Only 54% have taken Her Grace’s Sloppy-Seconds.

If these numbers turn out to be true, or even close to just 60-60%, then I don’t want to hear another damned thing about why I need to “do my civic duty” and BOHICA for the team. Anyone who says that will have exactly the same level of credibility as those who claim that the vaccine has killed more people than the virus.

Wouldn’t you agree?



todd_xxxx said:


> I don't think we will ever know the true numbers of people that died of covid, but I've seen enough to made up my mind as to whether this is *all* hype or not.


Careful with the word “all”, there. I’d hate to see you turn into just another one of the galant strawmen slayers. I genuinely respect your POV, and feel like you suffer the all-too-rare intellectual honesty that pains some of us. I haven’t seen many (if any) claim that it’s all hype. Again, I’m quite skeptical of anyone who thinks it’s been hyped the right amount, but I don’t think I’ve heard anyone genuinely say that it’s all fake (admittedly, I may have heard it and dismissed it out of hand).


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The majority of United States deaths were in nursing homes, not hospitals. The hospitals here were highly praised by those who were treated for covid. Nursing homes, OTOH, had a horrible record of patient care before covid. Patients who had family members coming to feed and care for them were cut off from those people and left with staff members who were seriously and suddenly overwhelmed with added duties.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone post that. I’m not saying they didn’t. I just haven’t seen it. …or may have dismissed it out of hand. That said, if they are saying it, and it’s not real, they’re getting it from somewhere. If that source is exaggerating the dangers of the vaccine, it’s unfortunate. It’s also no different than those who report COVID death-counts from sources that are exaggerating the death-counts. Isn’t it? Or is it OK because that particular log of bologna was squeezed with our own best interests in mind, while the other log was squeezed by a bunch of orange-shaded doody-heads?
> 
> An interesting stat is emerging out of GB, today, that will be both alarming and informative if true. The Brits are reporting that 60% of their current hospitalizations are folks who’ve been “double vaccinated” (two-shot recipe, and not just the first in the series?).
> 
> ...


The "vaccine has killed more people than the virus" , I have heard twice. Once on this forum, and once a co-worker said it to me. He is also the one that said it's all hype. And I'm stunned frankly when he says the stuff, because he is an extremely bright guy. He just has tremendous blinders when it comes to this subject. 

Do I think it is just as bad when people exaggerate the death rates as the vaccine dangers? Of course. A great part of my frustration with all of this comes because there is so little middle ground. I know far too many people that think covid is a) nothing at all, or b) the worst thing that has happened to humankind. Both of those statements are somewhat exaggerated to make my point. As is the case most times, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I would just like it better if it could be discussed without quite so much animosity. 

Thanks for discussing in a rational manner. When people present their point of view in the manner you did, it gives me other viewpoints to consider, and I appreciate that.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> The news media story...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stir the pot Alice. You aren't the only one who had family that was deployed and the mission was a mess due to CV.

Frankly, I thought the services did a great job. There were a few following incidents and there will probably be more. But for the number of people on some of these ships I think they, the leadership' did really well protecting our sons and daughters.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Old post.


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