# Denying Christian display on Christmas



## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Some people are offended by a Christian display at Christmas time. It's becoming a sad world. 
Judge plans to deny bid for park Nativity displays - Yahoo! News


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Judge denies bid for Nativity displays in Santa Monica - latimes.com

*Judge denies bid for Nativity displays in Santa Monica*

In a closely watched case that has attracted national attention, Judge Audrey B. Collins denied a request from the Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee to erect multiple large displays depicting the story of the birth of Jesus in the park overlooking the ocean. *The coalition of churches has erected the displays every December since the 1950s. *

But last year, after requests for display spots exceeded the space allotted, the city held a lottery to allocate spaces. Atheists won 18 of 21 spots. A Jewish group won another. The traditional Nativity story that used to take up 14 displays was crammed into two.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Are we really surprised, any more?

Religion is now divided, just like everything else.

Maybe it could be moved to private property.

The true spirit of the season, come from the heart, anyway.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Here we go again. These stories happen year after year during the holidays.

In a few days we will get to hear about all the Sheeple getting trampled and killed in the zombie-shopper-stampedes on Black Friday.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Haven said:


> Here we go again. These stories happen year after year during the holidays.
> 
> In a few days we will get to hear about all the Sheeple getting trampled and killed in the zombie-shopper-stampedes on Black Friday.


Yup, here we go again! So, you would be fine if a tradition that you and your family enjoyed for over 50 years(half a century) was taken away by someone that didn't like what you stand for?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

You stand for this?

Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Harry Chickpea said:


> You stand for this?
> 
> Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began


I stand for Christmas the way most Americans celebrate it. The commercial way! How do you celebrate the holidays?


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

I've never understood why anyone feels entitled to erect any type of display on public property. If you want a nativity scene then put it in your front yard, if you want an atheist display ( I have no idea what this would be) then put it in your front yard, if you want to erect a Jewish, Buddist, Pagan, muslim or even a flying spaghetti monster tribute then put it on your own property and no one can stop you. Otherwise quit whining that you are being denied the right to celebrate what you believe.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> I've never understood why anyone feels entitled to erect any type of display on public property. If you want a nativity scene then put it in your front yard, if you want an atheist display ( I have no idea what this would be) then put it in your front yard, if you want to erect a Jewish, Buddist, Pagan, muslim or even a flying spaghetti monster tribute then put it on your own property and no one can stop you. Otherwise *quit whining that you are being denied the right to celebrate what you believe*.


Nobody here is whining, just pointing out what was done traditionaly, is now being fround upon by a very vocal, extreme minority and the activist judges are in agreement with the anti religion folks! No one feels entitled either! No need to get nasty!

Cities, counties, etc... used to support these types of displays, like the one i mentioned, for as long as they have been around(over half a century). In the last few years, that has changed! Maybe it's just the "whining" of those that deep down, just feel left out because their religion doesn't allow for fun at this time of year! :shrug:

And yea, i'll continue to celebrate Christmas as we always have done and enjoy the holidays, as we have always done, regardless of the venom spewed about our religion by those that like to hate anything that others enjoy!


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> Nobody here is whining, just pointing out what was done traditionaly, is now being fround upon by a very vocal, extreme minority and the activist judges are in agreement with the anti religion folks! No one feels entitled either! No need to get nasty!
> 
> Cities, counties, etc... used to support these types of displays, like the one i mentioned, for as long as they have been around(over half a century). In the last few years, that has changed! Maybe it's just the "whining" of those that deep down, just feel left out because their religion doesn't allow for fun at this time of year! :shrug:
> 
> And yea, i'll continue to celebrate Christmas as we always have done and enjoy the holidays, as we have always done, regardless of the venom spewed about our religion by those that like to hate anything that others enjoy!


No one here is getting nasty,And I don't recall any venom being spewed so lets not get so dramatic. Personally I don't care one way on the other about religious displays, but when you want to erect something on *PUBLIC* property, the public should have a say in it.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Nobody here is whining, just pointing out what was done traditionaly, is now being fround upon by a very vocal, extreme minority and the activist judges are in agreement with the anti religion folks! No one feels entitled either! No need to get nasty!
> 
> Cities, counties, etc... used to support these types of displays, like the one i mentioned, for as long as they have been around(over half a century). In the last few years, that has changed! Maybe it's just the "whining" of those that deep down, just feel left out because their religion doesn't allow for fun at this time of year! :shrug:
> 
> And yea, i'll continue to celebrate Christmas as we always have done and enjoy the holidays, as we have always done, regardless of the venom spewed about our religion by those that like to hate anything that others enjoy!


I don't know why this has become such a big deal. This country IS and always has been Christ Like. Why have a few dictate what the majority of America is? 90% of Americans are Christian enough said.
This business that a few can dictate what the majority has enjoyed for many years has got to come to an end.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

What do you expect in Santa Monica?

Santa Claus?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> No one here is getting nasty,And I don't recall any venom being spewed so lets not get so dramatic. Personally I don't care one way on the other about religious displays, but when you want to erect something on *PUBLIC* property, the public should have a say in it.


They did for over fifty years! Than someone decided that they didn't want other to enjoy that tradition!

Yes, you were being nasty in your post saying folks think that their "entitled" to these displays and that people were "whining", the only person here that seems to be whining is you! (was that nasty?) Only drama here is your post, just pointing out the loss of Christmas tradition because of a few unhappy individuals!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Oggie said:


> What do you expect in Santa Monica?
> 
> Santa Claus?


Until recently, he did show up on Christmas day and give out presents to the needy kids in the area. That stopped because of this!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I've never understood why anyone feels entitled to erect any type of display on *public property.*


The atheists have it most of the year.
They should let Christians have it these few weeks


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> They did for over fifty years! Than someone decided that they didn't want other to enjoy that tradition!
> 
> Yes, you were being nasty in your post saying folks think that their "entitled" to these displays and that people were "whining", the only person here that seems to be whining is you! (was that nasty?) Only drama here is your post, just pointing out the loss of Christmas tradition because of a few unhappy individuals!


You posted earlier that the Christmas displays were still there, just not as dominate as they used to be. So how is that a loss of tradition. Other people are setting up different displays to reflect their beliefs and this seems to bother you. Are you saying that it's your way or no way at all?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> You posted earlier that the Christmas displays were still there, just not as dominate as they used to be. So how is that a loss of tradition. Other people are setting up different displays to reflect their beliefs and this seems to bother you. Are you saying that it's your way or no way at all?




No, that's not what i said! Maybe you didn't see this in my first post:

It was also bolded.

Judge *denies* bid for Nativity displays in Santa Monica

Denies means "No display" in legal lingo!

And just for the record, no, i have no problem with others setting up their own displays on public property!


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Yep you are right, what you posted was about last year being reduced from 14 spots down to two. However back to my original point, why is it necessary to erect displays on public property in order to celebrate Christmas?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oggie said:


> What do you expect in Santa Monica?
> 
> Santa Claus?


What a new thought......... No more San Francisco, San Rafael, Santa Monica, St. Louis, St Paul, Corpus Christi, etc. It's all a public display of religion. 

A bland new world of BCE and CE. Edited religon out of the history books. 

Yes- I am surprised about people who profess no religion constantly battling to prevent those who do with such viciousness. 

But I know how to really irritate them 

I forgive you.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

I guess that Hell, Michigan, could always change its name to Heck.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oggie said:


> I guess that Hell, Michigan, could always change its name to Heck.


No it couldn't- Heck is only a euphemism and still based on religion. I suppose it could be changed to, oh let's see, "Time out Corner, Mi." Or "Prison Time, Mi." Or -I got it- "Just Desserts, Mi."


Too bad Karma is out- that seems most appropriate.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> Yep you are right, what you posted was about last year being reduced from 14 spots down to two. However back to my original point, why is it necessary to erect displays on public property in order to celebrate Christmas?


It's not necessary at all, it's just nice to show appreation to the holiday the majority of people celebrate! For over 50 years it wasn't a problem, why now?


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## Buffy in Dallas (May 10, 2002)

arabian knight said:


> 90% of Americans are Christian enough said.


Where on earth did you get that number? Its actually closer to 70-75%.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

If any one religious display is allowed, then shouldnt all be able too?

It does seem to me that Christianity is singled out more so than any others.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> why is it necessary to erect displays on public property in order to celebrate Christmas?


Why is it necessary to *complain* about it if *they* want to?
Most towns use *tax money* to put up Christmas decorations on "public property"


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

From the article. "Last June, the City Council voted to ban all private unattended displays"
If you watch the video it shows some of the previous displays that are anti-religious. They aren't just making a nice holiday display. One has a sign that says "Religions are all alike-founded upon fables and mythologies". 
There are a few churches around here who are not able to have a nativity scene on their property as they are downtown. The city does not pay for their display either. 
These displays are generally only put up for a few weeks around Christmas time, I don't know why the anti-Christmas folks can't just see about making a display at another time of year.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I have several thoughts on this. 
I have to agree that if it's publically owned land, the public should get a say in how it's used. All the public. Not just deny one group because of a few complaints. Let the people vote and let the vote go as it may. Then cities and communities can use what's theirs the way that they want. I am not in favor of one law for every city or community or even state on this matter. Let the communities decide. If it's Federal land, it would have to be decided by the federal govt. 

However, I have to wonder if Christians were to do some vocal objecting to Santa Clause infringing on their Holy Day what would happen? Would they be given the same consideration? I don't think they would - and that bothers me too.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

then have a public election for a vote on this being allowed.

That way the public will have a voice in what happens on public property, the nay sayers get a say, and a vocal few party poopers can be either held up, or told by the voters to go be unhappy.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Oggie said:


> What do you expect in Santa Monica?
> 
> Santa Claus?


Santa, with Monica Lewinski as an elf.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

I don't understand what the atheists point is, what are they trying to prove with all the insults that they displayed? Sounds like they really enjoy hate speech.. 

That being said I am not a Christian, but thoroughly enjoy the season. We always took our kids to view the displays and had a feeling of peace from the messages that were sent. Why is that one group would view them as a threat? Are they that threatened by anyone that doesn't believe the same way. Would they protest and degrade Islam, Buddhists, Wiccans or any other form of worship?

And as to it being public property, the public should make the decision on any activity.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

1. It's not Jesus' Birthday.

2. We, Believers, are not Commanded to celebrate His Birthday.

3. When 'christians' act just like everyone else (scream at the cashier, impatient in lines, blow our horns in anger in the parking lot, right before we steal a close spot from someone else then say "snooze you lose", etc).........THEN want to have a temper tantrum that they can't put up a Nativity? Um, pretty sure that is not salt and light.

4. If 'christians' KNEW The Word, they would KNOW that this is the way it's going to be, and to share the Love of God through the giving of ourselves and living our lives for Him. NOT through some plastic light up thing in a park. 
How many people have stopped you when you walked past the Nativity scene in a public place and told you about Jesus? 
Yeah. "Christians" throw those plastic light up things out once a year and think they are being salt and light. Not.

5. Every time "christians" have a cow in public about where they can and cannot erect a Nativity.....doesn't draw anyone to God.

6. Jesus is still the King, regardless if we put up one Nativity, ever again. But 'christians' just can't get past that at 'christmas'. 
They get all wound around the axles cause the cashier says happy holidays.
BEFORE you make a fool of yourself, in God's Name, Just smile and thank her. Wish her a Merry Christmas from your heart, not your bowels.

Sorry, christmas brings out the worst in christians......

ETA: I am a Believer, and Follower of Jesus Christ. I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, strength and mind.
And I try to love my neighbor, as myself.
I Believe every Word in Scripture from "In The Beginning, to the final Amen".
It just breaks my heart to see others who claim Him act polar opposite of what His Word says......


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Haven said:


> Santa, with Monica Lewinski as an elf.



I'm pretty sure that she's a bit large to be an elf and would probably have a little trouble leaving the candy canes alone.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I can't understand how the christians get so bent out of shape when other people don't want them putting something on display when they are the first in line to complain about other religions who want to do the same.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> I can't understand how the christians get so bent out of shape when other people don't want them putting something on display when they are the first in line to complain about other religions who want to do the same.


Who here said any of that? What I posted was that after over half a century, the displays are just now being banned because of a lazy city council.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

What I can't understand is why people say their not religious, then complain about a nativity! Really! After all, it IS Christmas isn't it! Others celebrate this time of year too. Why are they so mean towards those that believe? Ah, yes, it must be their envyious that some are just happier then they are and want to force that unhappiness on to those that are happy! I get it now!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

pancho said:


> I can't understand how the christians get so bent out of shape when other people don't want them putting something on display when they are the first in line to complain about other religions who want to do the same.


IKR!
Like the public schools shoving humanism down the kids throats as fast as they can swallow.
This is no 'surprise'. Scripture spoke of it.
Simple solution?
Pull 'em and home school 'em.

I have never been arrested for saying "God Bless You" when anyone sneezes.
I have never been arrested for carrying my Bible.
It is not illegal for me to go to church or Biblestudy Fellowship at a church.
I have never been arrested for posting my Faith.

I have religious freedom.
I am free to Worship Him, Praise Him, Love Him, Share Him.

Scripture says:

1 Peter 3:15-16

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer *to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. *But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Bold is mine.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel. 
I will shamelessly give all credit and Glory to God.

BUT I don't want someone else's religion shoved down my throat.
Therefore, I will not shove my Jesus down anyone else's throat.
If they ask? I will be more than happy to share the hope I have!!


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

My grandmother use to have a T-shirt that read "Priggishly Sanctimonious."

When she had it on, we kept our distance.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It's hard to aggressively judgemental about others being aggressively judgemental and not look the fool.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The atheists have it most of the year.
> They should let Christians have it these few weeks


Au contraire. The Americans have it ALL year.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> Who here said any of that? What I posted was that after over half a century, the displays are just now being banned because of a lazy city council.


We had slavery for more than 200 years. Maybe we should keep that "tradition" too.:hrm:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The atheists have it most of the year.
> They should let Christians have it these few weeks





FourDeuce said:


> Au contraire. The Americans have it ALL year.


Divisions.
United we stand, divided we fall.
We humans will use ANYTHING available, even God Almighty, to draw a dividing line......

We have to stop dividing ourselves or we all will be crushed.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

JeffreyD said:


> It's not necessary at all, it's just nice to show appreation to the holiday the majority of people celebrate! For over 50 years it wasn't a problem, why now?


Srperation of chutch and state. 

I am a christian and I refuse to depend on others for how I choose to thank my Lord and savior.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Au contraire. The Americans have it ALL year.


Nope, it's the atheist's when there is NOTHING there, since that is what they believe in.
They only whine when the Christians want to use it


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> We had slavery for more than 200 years. Maybe we should keep that "tradition" too.:hrm:


Slavery was NOT a tradition, it was business pure and simple. You are comparing apples to oranges! Nice try though! Also, it had nothing to do with Christmas!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

acde said:


> Srperation of chutch and state.
> 
> I am a christian and I refuse to depend on others for how I choose to thank my Lord and savior.


That didn't answer my question! Why now, after over half a century?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> We had slavery for more than 200 years. Maybe we should keep that "tradition" too.:hrm:[/QUOTE
> 
> Come to think of it, the government has made slaves of millions of people through entitlement programs, but your ok with them. Why is that ok?


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Peoples hearts will still be hardened even with the judgements of the 7 trumpets sound.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> But last year, after requests for display spots exceeded the space allotted, the city held a lottery to allocate spaces.


Seems a reasonable solution. :shrug:


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Seems a reasonable solution. :shrug:


Except the lead athiest Vix had hundreds of his "followers" apply and they received the bulk of the available spots. They then proceeded to put up displays that were really offensive. Not just to Christians, but many others! Yea, that's fair I guess by liberal standards!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Except the lead athiest Vix had hundreds of his "followers" apply and they received the bulk of the available spots. They then proceeded to put up displays that were really offensive. Not just to Christians, but many others! *Yea, that's fair I guess by liberal standards*!


I don't think so, because not all atheists are liberals and not all liberals are atheists. If it was all atheists that did what you said they did, then that's what you'd call atheist standards, not liberal standards.

.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

naturelover said:


> I don't think so, because not all atheists are liberals and not all liberals are atheists. If it was all atheists that did what you said they did, then that's what you'd call atheist standards, not liberal standards.
> 
> .


Maybe so, but I think that liberals would approve of those standards!


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> Slavery was NOT a tradition, it was business pure and simple. You are comparing apples to oranges! Nice try though! Also, it had nothing to do with Christmas!


So just because it was DONE for several hundred years doesn't make it a tradition? That's strange. Weren't you suggesting that because the thing you are in favor of was done for a long time that made it a tradition? 
Sounds similar to slavery to me in that respect. The fact that something is done for a long time doesn't make it good.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> FourDeuce said:
> 
> 
> > We had slavery for more than 200 years. Maybe we should keep that "tradition" too.:hrm:[/QUOTE
> ...


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Nope, it's the atheist's when there is NOTHING there, since that is what they believe in.
> 
> *Wow. So YOU are the person who decides what people believe in? Interesting. How did you get appointed to that position? Do you have some kind of authorization or something? Does it pay well?*
> 
> They only whine when the Christians want to use it


*Ah, so you get to decide who whines too? Must be rough to have all that responsibility*.

I think your statement above is ridiculous. When there is NOTHING there, public property belongs to ALL Americans. If you want to claim otherwise, you are welcome to try to prove it, but you'll need to do better than just declare it. YOU may consider yourself the arbiter of all things to all people, but I only accept judgments from people qualified to give them.
The fact that you don't like that doesn't change it.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> So just because it was DONE for several hundred years doesn't make it a tradition? That's strange. Weren't you suggesting that because the thing you are in favor of was done for a long time that made it a tradition?
> Sounds similar to slavery to me in that respect. The fact that something is done for a long time doesn't make it good.


Two totaly different subjects. Simple.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> JeffreyD said:
> 
> 
> > When did I give you permission to speak for me? Not that I'm objecting or anything, but I'm curious since I don't remember doing that.:hrm:
> ...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *Wow. So YOU are the person who decides what people believe in?*


Atheists are big on TELLING people what they (don't ) believe 
They made the "decision"


> *Ah, so you get to decide who whines too?*


They made that "decision" also.
I just OBSERVE it 


> I think your statement above is ridiculous


You're free to think anything you like.
It makes no difference to me


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> But last year, after requests for display spots exceeded the space allotted, the city held a lottery to allocate spaces.





willow_girl said:


> Seems a reasonable solution. :shrug:


A handful of years ago, Target said NO to the Salvation Army bell ringers.
Well, you would have thought that satan himself was at the front door of every Target welcoming shoppers.
christians had a cow.

Target was VERY CLEAR that *NO* was for EVERYONE.
No to the Salvation Army
No to the boy scouts / girls scouts.
No to the local baseball team
No to PETA
No to Sacrifice a live animal to satan group
No to The bowling nuns.
No to Operation feed a child.
No to The muslim brotherhood.......

NO WAS NO TO EVERYONE.

Do you know how much I appreciate NOT being accosted at the door as I walk in and walk out?
I don't mind the bell ringer, but I would mind the sacrifice a live animal to satan group.
I don't mind operation feed a child, but I would mind PETA.

SO Target said: SAY NO TO EVERYONE and NO ONE will be bothered.

I personally do not want to see 'religious symbols or displays' to false gods.
I personally HAVE Jesus Christ, with me at all times, so I do not NEED a plastic light up scene to remind me WHO He is.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.


IF more Believers operated as Scripture Commands......more folks would be inclined to "ask" and THEN you can give you answer: the Reason for your Hope.


Humans.....oy.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I personally do not want to see 'religious symbols or displays' to false gods.


And if everyone would just understand that this applies to everyone, individually, then perhaps more people would be as insightful as you are.

I always find it amusing that around Thanksgiving, it seems as if the "War on Christmas" rhetoric gets brought out. I guess folks just box it up with their usual Christmas ornaments and such and just happen to come across it while setting up their homes.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

There was a point in time where there was no difference between the State and the Church. The thought did not occur as the mixing was so pervasive.
Which is why the seperation of church and state was enshrined (humor?) in the Constitution. 
But that does not mean that people's behavior was changed. Growing up, Christmas was a wondrful time where strangers constantly would greet each other in the street with "Merry Christmas." Pleople seemed to behave with more generous impulses.
And there were office parties (not usually pious events,) and schools had special Christmas events. Everyone was included, whether they wanted to be or not. It made most people feel part of a community. 
Of course, the fact that such wide spread celebrating was religious at heart did cause strain for non-Christians, especially children. 
So it is possible to acknowledge the isolation to some that community Christmas celebrations caused while mourning the loss of those too few days where almost eveyone celebrated together. 
The unfortunate thing is the only real community celebration that seems to be left is Black Friday sales. 
But I do miss the old Christmas spirit where it was possible to be extra polite and considerate for at least a week.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

joseph97297 said:


> And if everyone would just understand that this applies to everyone, individually, then perhaps more people would be as insightful as you are.
> 
> I always find it amusing that around Thanksgiving, it seems as if the "War on Christmas" rhetoric gets brought out. I guess folks just box it up with their usual Christmas ornaments and such and just happen to come across it while setting up their homes.


If you paid attention, you would see the discrimination everywhere, but since you don't care about Christmas, it doesn't matter to you or those that don't celebrate it! It does to those that DO celebrate Christmas!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

To those that don't like religious displays, here's your solution........don't look! Simple eh?


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> If you paid attention, you would see the discrimination everywhere, but since you don't care about Christmas, it doesn't matter to you or those that don't celebrate it! It does to those that DO celebrate Christmas!


And I am all for them to celebrate Christmas, but if it is public property, or public funds, then the public would have a say in it.

I didn't read where people couldn't put up personal decorations on private property did I? Has that happened?

If anyone is stopping you from displaying your Christmas decorations on your property, just give a holler, I'd be the first one there to help you make that stand, no worries. Is that the case?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> FourDeuce said:
> 
> 
> > We had slavery for more than 200 years. Maybe we should keep that "tradition" too.:hrm:[/QUOTE
> ...


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> JeffreyD said:
> 
> 
> > Talk about apples and oranges.
> ...


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> If you paid attention, you would see the discrimination everywhere, but since you don't care about Christmas, it doesn't matter to you or those that don't celebrate it! It does to those that DO celebrate Christmas!


If you paid attention you would see that the so called 'war on Christmas' is a myth.

Take it from someone who tries to avoid the holiday like the plague...the onslaught gets worse and worse and starts earlier and earlier every year.:hair


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> If you paid attention you would see that the so called 'war on Christmas' is a myth.
> 
> Take it from someone who tries to avoid the holiday like the plague...the onslaught gets worse and worse and starts earlier and earlier every year.:hair


So the article I posted wasn't real, and the aitheists didn't do anything? Got it!


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> So the article I posted wasn't real, and the aitheists didn't do anything? Got it!


I didn't say that, I said there was no 'war on Christmas'. 

A few people trying to keep it off of public property is hardly endangering your holiday...sorry, holimonthandahalf.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Except the lead athiest Vix had hundreds of his "followers" apply and they received the bulk of the available spots. They then proceeded to put up displays that were really offensive. Not just to Christians, but many others! Yea, that's fair I guess by liberal standards!


Were the Christians prevented from similarly flooding the municipality with applications? Perhaps they weren't as interested in having displays as were the atheists. :shrug:

And ... living in a free country means being exposed to offensive viewpoints from time to time.

That said, honey probably attracts more flies than does vinegar.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

In America we were guaranteed freedom *of *religion
Here in Obamanation, the bad guys want freedom *from *religion.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Cornhusker said:


> In America we were guaranteed freedom *of *religion
> Here in Obamanation, the bad guys want freedom *from *religion.


Freedom is is freedom. 

Because some of us don't want your religion imposed on us does not make us 'bad' it just looks different to you than your definition of freedom.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Were the Christians* prevented* from similarly flooding the municipality with applications?


No, anyone *CAN* use devious means to promote an agenda


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Because some of us don't want your religion imposed on us does not make us 'bad' it just looks different to you than your definition of freedom


No one is "imposing" anything on you by setting up a display for THEIR enjoyment.
They weren't going to force you to go look at it


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Why aren't atheists protesting the USPS and their religious stamps?

As a non Christian I don't see what the problem is with the Christian displays. We always enjoy them and so did the kids. In no way did I ever feel my beliefs were threatened by viewing them. Guess we are strong enough in our own ways not to be upset by anyone's displays.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

joseph97297 said:


> And if everyone would just understand that this applies to everyone, individually, then perhaps more people would be as insightful as you are.
> 
> I always find it amusing that around Thanksgiving, it seems as if the "War on Christmas" rhetoric gets brought out. I guess folks just box it up with their usual Christmas ornaments and such and just happen to come across it while setting up their homes.



I personally do not want to hear the ramadan call to prayer 5 x a day.
I would be bent out of shape, if they used the 'tornado sirens' (state funded property) to send out that call.
If they want to make a noise on their own property 5 x a day, fine. 
As long as it is after 7 am and before 11 pm, because that is the noise ordinance laws.

Maybe they feel the same way about my plastic light up manger scene?

War on Christmas is about as effective as the war on drugs.

If 'Jesus' only comes out in Nov, and Dec, and is displayed all over your yard, house, cards, etc. 
And Nov and Dec is the only time you get all steamed under the collar for Him?
Um, I have bad news for you.
Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm&#8212;neither hot nor cold&#8212;I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Jesus doesn't need defended.
He doesn't need for us to go out with our screaming angry faces and hate on fellow human beings.
He doesn't need us to spend millions of dollars on some "christmas campaign'.

1. It's not His Birthday.
2. We are not Commanded to celebrate His Birthday.
3. We are Commanded to Love the Lord, thy God with all our hearts, souls, mind and strength AND LOVE our neighbors (thats ALL fellow man) as ourselves.

This is one of the BIG reasons we (my family) stopped celebrating christmas. 
People go from 0 to idiot in 1.2 seconds flat.
And Misuse the Name of the Lord in the process. 
(Exodus 20:7 &#8220;You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name)


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

It might be different if christmas was like it was years ago and not the commercial thing it is today.
Look at all of the people camping out in front of stores.
Look at all of the fights, crowding, and running for some toy.
Look at all of the people who go into debt that they cannot get out from under by next year at the same time.

When I see even half the interest in religion that I see for some toy I will give religion another look.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> They did for over fifty years! Than someone decided that they didn't want other to enjoy that tradition!



Kinda like slavery


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ambereyes said:


> Why aren't atheists protesting the USPS and their religious stamps?
> 
> As a non Christian I don't see what the problem is with the Christian displays. We always enjoy them and so did the kids. In no way did I ever feel my beliefs were threatened by viewing them. Guess we are strong enough in our own ways not to be upset by anyone's displays.


Because we have a choice of getting the non-religious stamps


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Dutchie said:


> Kinda like slavery



Now that's a large jump from the topic... :teehee::lookout:


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

> Except the lead athiest Vix had hundreds of his "followers" apply and they received the bulk of the available spots. They then proceeded to put up displays that were really offensive. Not just to Christians, but many others! Yea, that's fair I guess by liberal standards!


Apparently the atheists wanted their display up more than the Christians did. I don't agree with the atheists nasty messages and putting down others, though. Everyone should be welcome to put up a display celebrating their own beliefs but not one cutting down others.

I"m not Christian but I have no problem with Christmas. I do have a big problem with "Happy Holidays" and all the commercialization that Christmas has become. If it is a Christmas holiday, call it Christmas. When someone wishes me Merry Christmas I wish them Merry Christmas back. If someone greets me with a religious greeting during any other holiday I greet them back with the same. Interacting with someone of another belief system doesn't "contaminate" my beliefs.

Put up all the nativity scenes you want. It doesn't offend me. Just be open to me plunking down a display right beside yours promoting the spaghetti swamp monster. :happy2:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sounds like there are more athiests in the area than they are christians.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Kinda like slavery


That's one of the most LAME comparisons anyone could ever make.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Dutchie said:


> Kinda like slavery


Apples and oranges! Your late to the party as this was already discussed!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Sounds like there are more athiests in the area than they are christians.


The city council told the church that sponsered the display that another individual(Vix) wanted a display there too, and that they would hold a lottery for the spaces. The church was told that only a couple of parties had expressed interest, so the church only put their name in the hat. Vix on the other hand had dozens of his followers apply because they didn't want any religious display other than their own. Really mean and spitefull is what it boils down to! The complaints from the residents about the displays Vix set up were so numerious that the council decided no displays at all! How compasionate and tollerrant these athiests are! Selfish and mean are the best discription for Vix and his merry band!


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Ain't it a shame there isn't another nice big continent some folks could go to, instead of having to deal with the blankity blank mess there is anymore. The old folks used to talk about this mess coming.....most of us thought they were crazy. Pretty soon it'll be illegal for a fella to take his hat of when a hearse passes!


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Christmas has pagan roots sooooo..... it's sort of an odd thing to argue lol. 

People sort of tend to forget the things he asked us to do and go our own way no matter what....

ETA: if we they want tocelebrate his birth around the time he was likely actually born it shouldn't be to hard to get a spot because that was most likely Sep./Oct. not Dec.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

plowhand said:


> Ain't it a shame there isn't another nice big continent some folks could go to, instead of having to deal with the blankity blank mess there is anymore. The old folks used to talk about this mess coming.....most of us thought they were crazy. Pretty soon it'll be illegal for a fella to take his hat of when a hearse passes!


Yeah.....that is apples to oranges as well, better watch it, the "comparison police' will be here in a minute to call it.......

I agree with the folks about public property, public input. I understand that I don't have to look at it, but if it is on public property using public resources, I have to pay for it, so there you go.

Once again, is this stopping any one individual person from displaying anything on their personal property? What....didn't think so.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

joseph97297 said:


> Yeah.....that is apples to oranges as well, better watch it, the "comparison police' will be here in a minute to call it.......
> 
> I agree with the folks about public property, public input. I understand that I don't have to look at it, but if it is on public property using public resources, I have to pay for it, so there you go.
> 
> Once again, is this stopping any one individual person from displaying anything on their personal property? What....didn't think so.


First, it never cost the city a penny! Second, the majority of folks there liked the display and many voiced their opinion to the city council after they made their dicision because the council kept it quite. Why, because the council is spineless and didn't want the displays themselves because they had to wait for it.....actualy do some work. Fact is their just lazy and were looking for the easy way out. So, even though the majority want ted the "status quo" the minority got their way. It was mean and purely out of spite. Seems like most athiests have serious internal struggles about others freedom of religion, and don't like others to be happy about their religious beliefs.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I understand that I don't have to look at it, but if it is on public property using public resources,* I have to pay for it*, so there you go.


You're not paying any EXTRA for someone to use it.
THEY pay as much as you


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You're not paying any EXTRA for someone to use it.
> THEY pay as much as you


Wow....who said anything about 'EXTRA"? I guess you just felt the need to insert random words and try to insinuate that I said it?

So the city gets free electricity? Those outlets that are at the exhibits and such are 'free electricity"? No one pays them? Well, perhaps I should start charging my batteries there since no one pays for that usage. I should thank the electric company for that free service.

And as far as you trying to say that THEY are paying as much as me/public, then THEY shouldn't get bent out of shape if THEY lose their spots in the lottery. After all, THEY have as much of a chance to win as THEM other folks.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> First, it never cost the city a penny! Second, the majority of folks there liked the display and many voiced their opinion to the city council after they made their dicision because the council kept it quite. Why, because the council is spineless and didn't want the displays themselves because they had to wait for it.....actualy do some work. Fact is their just lazy and were looking for the easy way out. So, even though the majority want ted the "status quo" the minority got their way. It was mean and purely out of spite. Seems like most athiests have serious internal struggles about others freedom of religion, and don't like others to be happy about their religious beliefs.


As I noted, no one pays for the electricity? 

If the majority of the public in regards to this approved, then yes, the displays should be allowed. Hence, the lottery system they had in place. But apparently some people didn't like that method and in order to stop any controversy, they just said no.


So, those spiteful folks that didn't like the lottery system are the ones who ruined it for everyone. Otherwise, everyone would have the opportunity to win the lottery and 'receive' and exhibit. Dang those spiteful folks......


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

From the OP Link:
"The city doesn't prohibit churches from caroling in the park, handing out literature or even staging a play about the birth of Jesus, and churches can always set up a nativity on private land, Deputy City Attorney Jeanette Schachtner said in an email.

The decision to ban the displays also *saves the city, which had administered the cumbersome lottery process used to award booths, both time and money while preserving the park's aesthetics,* she said."

Hmm, now what was that about money and the city not spending anything???

And to talk about spiteful people:

"Most of the signs were vandalized and in the ensuing uproar, the city effectively ended a tradition that began in 1953 and earned Santa Monica one of its nicknames, the City of the Christmas Story."

That was the atheist signs....hmmm......


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

ne prairiemama said:


> Christmas has pagan roots sooooo..... it's sort of an odd thing to argue lol.
> 
> People sort of tend to forget the things he asked us to do and go our own way no matter what....
> 
> ETA: if we they want to celebrate his birth around the time he was likely actually born it shouldn't be to hard to get a spot because that was most likely Sep./Oct. not Dec.


And this is why the whole "war on Christmas" thing is plain-out ridiculous. Jesus was NOT born in December, and even the most conservative Biblical scholars will readily admit that. 

Do y'all know WHY Christians celebrate Christmas in late December? Because the Pagans celebrate the rebirth of the Sun God on Winter Solstice (Dec 21/22). When the Christians were trying to convert the Pagans, they tried to point out how similar the religions were so they could say "See, you're not really abandoning your old traditions if you convert to Christianity! You celebrate the rebirth of the Sun God at the same time we celebrate the birth of the Son of God!" Made it easier to force the new religion upon the Pagans.

I'm a Wiccian, and I'm completely out of the broom closet. I have to admit that I  whenever I hear Christians throwing a fit about how the "non-Christian" folk are "stealing" their holiday from them..... it was OUR holiday first! If anything, the Christians stole Winter Solstice from us Pagans, and WE should be the ones out and about complaining about the "War on Yule". But oddly you don't hear a great deal about that now, do you?

I always jokingly say "Merry ChristmaHunakkKwanzaYule!" to people, because I figure that covers most of the bases. And my very Christian DH is perfectly okay with me designing our annual cards and putting "Happy Holidays!" on them instead of "Merry Christmas" or "Blessed Yule", because he considers it a fair compromise. I'm not going to stop him from baptizing our son, he's not going to stop me from holding a Naming Ceremony from him. If a hard-core Christian man and his hard-core Wiccian wife can make these things work, then clearly it can be done.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

There are churches on every corner that put up mangers etc. I don't see why forcing the displays onto public property is even needed. I mean, how many displays does one town need before it becomes obnoxious to everyone? No need to add more to publicly funded areas. No one is stopping the churches or homes of Christians from doing whatever they want. Public areas should remain neutral in all areas, out of respect for each citizen (with different beliefs and cultures) that pays taxes to maintain it.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> There are churches on every corner that put up mangers etc.


Exactly. Everyone knows what a church is. Everyone knows that it's supposed to be a House of Prayer, Worship, where Jesus is Exalted and the Word is explained.......
That is enough.
If folks want to know more about this Jesus, they know where to look.



> I don't see why forcing the displays onto public property is even needed. I mean, how many displays does one town need before it becomes obnoxious to everyone? No need to add more to publicly funded areas. No one is stopping the churches or homes of Christians from doing whatever they want. *Public areas should remain neutral in all areas, out of respect for each citizen (with different beliefs and cultures) that pays taxes to maintain it*.


Totally agree.
If Believers and Followers of Christ, lived like Believers and Followers of Christ, no one would need a plastic Jesus to point them to Jesus Himself.

I don't want any other religion / god / etc shoved in my face.
Who am I to shove my Jesus in yours?
If someone wants to know about The Hope I have in Christ, my life lived should show Him clearly.........and they will ask.
No plastic Jesus made in China is necessary.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

bluemoonluck said:


> And this is why the whole "war on Christmas" thing is plain-out ridiculous. Jesus was NOT born in December, and even the most conservative Biblical scholars will readily admit that.
> 
> Do y'all know WHY Christians celebrate Christmas in late December? Because the Pagans celebrate the rebirth of the Sun God on Winter Solstice (Dec 21/22). When the Christians were trying to convert the Pagans, they tried to point out how similar the religions were so they could say "See, you're not really abandoning your old traditions if you convert to Christianity! You celebrate the rebirth of the Sun God at the same time we celebrate the birth of the Son of God!" Made it easier to force the new religion upon the Pagans.
> 
> ...


It is appalling how many christians have NO idea where "christmas" came from......:hair
Thank you for spelling this out!!


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

bluemoonluck said:


> And this is why the whole "war on Christmas" thing is plain-out ridiculous. Jesus was NOT born in December, and even the most conservative Biblical scholars will readily admit that.
> 
> Do y'all know WHY Christians celebrate Christmas in late December? Because the Pagans celebrate the rebirth of the Sun God on Winter Solstice (Dec 21/22). When the Christians were trying to convert the Pagans, they tried to point out how similar the religions were so they could say "See, you're not really abandoning your old traditions if you convert to Christianity! You celebrate the rebirth of the Sun God at the same time we celebrate the birth of the Son of God!" Made it easier to force the new religion upon the Pagans.
> 
> I'm a Wiccan, and I'm completely out of the broom closet. I have to admit that I  whenever I hear Christians throwing a fit about how the "non-Christian" folk are "stealing" their holiday from them..... it was OUR holiday first! If anything, the Christians stole Winter Solstice from us Pagans, and WE should be the ones out and about complaining about the "War on Yule". But oddly you don't hear a great deal about that now, do you?


:umno: Touchstone Archives: Calculating Christmas


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

December is for everyone.

December

See also: Winter solstice#Observances

Advent: four weeks prior to Christmas.
Saint Nicholas' Day: 6 December
Bodhi Day: 8 December - Day of Enlightenment, celebrating the day that the historical Buddha (Shakyamuni or Siddhartha Guatama) experienced enlightenment (also known as Bodhi).
Hanukkah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hanukkah begins in the evening of Saturday, December 8, 2012, and ends in the evening of Sunday, December 16, 2012.
Saint Lucy's Day: 13 December - Church Feast Day. Saint Lucy comes as a young woman with lights and sweets.
Winter Solstice: 21 December-22 December - midwinter
Soyal: 21 December - Zuni and Hopi
Yalda: 21 December - The turning point, Winter Solstice. As the longest night of the year and the beginning of the lengthening of days, _Shabe Yald&#257;_ or _Shabe Chelle_ is an Iranian festival celebrating the victory of light and goodness over darkness and evil. _Shabe yalda_ means 'birthday eve.' According to Persian mythology, Mithra was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother. He symbolizes light, truth, goodness, strength, and friendship. Herodotus reports that this was the most important holiday of the year for contemporary Persians. In modern times Persians celebrate _Yalda_ by staying up late or all night, a practice known as _Shab Chera_ meaning 'night gazing'. Fruits and nuts are eaten, especially pomegranates and watermelons, whose red color invokes the crimson hues of dawn and symbolize Mithra.
M&#333;draniht: or Mothers' Night, the Saxon winter solstice festival.
Saturnalia: the Roman winter solstice festival
Pancha Ganapati: Five-day festival in honor of Lord Ganesha. December 21&#8211;25.
Christmas Eve: 24 December
Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Day of the birth of the Unconquered Sun): late Roman Empire - 25 December
Christmas: 25 December
Twelve Days of Christmas: 25 December through 6 January
Yule: Pagan winter festival that was celebrated by the historical Germanic people from late December to early January.
Anastasia of Sirmium Feast Day: 25 December
Malkh: 25 December
Boxing Day: 26 December - Gift-giving day after Christmas.
Kwanzaa: 26 December - 1 January - Pan-African festival celebrated in North America
Saint Stephen's Day: 26 December
Saint John the Evangelist's Day: 27 December
Holy Innocents' Day: 28 December
Saint Sylvester's Day: 31 December
Watch Night: 31 December
New Year's Eve: 31 December - Last day of the Gregorian year
Hogmanay: Night of 31 December - Before dawn of 1 January - Scottish New Year's Eve celebration
*Entire Month of December*:
- Hi Neighbor Month
- National Stress Free Family Holiday Month
- Read a New Book Month
- Safe Toy & Gift Month
- Universal Human Rights Month
- Safe Toy & Gift Month
*December 1*
*- *Eat a red apple day
- National Pie Day
- Rosa Park&#8217;s Day
- World AIDS Day
*December 2*
*- *National Fritters Day
*December 3*
- International Day of the Disabled Person
- National Roof-Over-Your-Head Day
*December 4*
- National Cookie Day
- Wear Brown Shoes Day

*December 5*
*- *Walter Elias (Walt) Disney&#8217;s Birthday
*December 6*
- Mitten Tree Day
- St. Nicholas Day
*December 7*
- National Cotton Candy Day
- Pearl Harbor Day
*December 8*
- National Brownie Day
- Hannukkah Begins at Sunset
*December 9*
- First Christmas Seals Issued
*December 10*
- Emily Dickinson&#8217;s Birthday
- Human Rights Day
- Nobel Peace Prize Awarded
*December 11*
- UNICEF Anniversary
*December 12*
- Poinsettia Day
*December 13*
- National Cocoa Day
*December 14*
- South Pole Discovered
*December 16*
- Boston Tea Party Anniversary
- Las Posadas 
- Ludwig Von Beethoven&#8217;s Birthday
- National Chocolate Covered Anything Day
*December 17*
- National Maple Syrup Day
- Underdog Day
- Wright Brother&#8217;s Day
*December 18*
- Wear a Plunger on Your Head Day
*December 19*
- Oatmeal Muffin Day
*December 20*
- Games Day
*December 21*
- First Day of Winter
- Humbug Day
- Look at the Bright Side Day
- National Flashlight Day
*December 23*
- Roots Day
*December 24*
- National Egg Nog Day
*December 25*
- Christmas
- National Pumpkin Pie Day
*December 26*
- Boxing Day
- Kwanzaa Begins
- National Wineries Day
*December 27*
- Visit the Zoo Day
*December 28*
- Card Playing Day
- National Chocolate Day
*December 31*
- New Year&#8217;s Eve

:happy2:

.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

I don't know if there is a war on Christmas or not , I honestly don't . I do know that both sides of the issue goes out of its way to be insulted ... and that stinks .


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm a Wiccian, and I'm completely out of the broom closet. I have to admit that I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So show us your examples of Christians protesting YOUR Christmas displays


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

joseph97297 said:


> And I am all for them to celebrate Christmas, but if it is public property, or public funds, then the public would have a say in it.
> 
> I didn't read where people couldn't put up personal decorations on private property did I? Has that happened?
> 
> If anyone is stopping you from displaying your Christmas decorations on your property, just give a holler, I'd be the first one there to help you make that stand, no worries. Is that the case?


I didn't read where the "public" voted on it. Did I miss that? Or was it just a few liberals that decided it was not politically correct to decorate for anything having to do with the birth of Christ?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> If you paid attention you would see that the so called 'war on Christmas' is a myth.
> 
> Take it from someone who tries to avoid the holiday like the plague...the onslaught gets worse and worse and starts earlier and earlier every year.:hair


Take it from someone who is a Christian and has seen all the changes that adversely affect Christians, there IS a war on Christians. True, it's just starting, but once it takes root I have no doubt it will snowball to the point that Christians will be treated just like the Jews were in Nazi Germany.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> Freedom is is freedom.
> 
> Because some of us don't want your religion imposed on us does not make us 'bad' it just looks different to you than your definition of freedom.


How does a display of statues impose our religion on you? How does it hurt anyone? Maybe we should take down every statue every erected so as not to offend anyone. Maybe we should stop allowing the schools to teach any history because someone may be offended. After all, history talks about how the white man murdered the red man. How the white man enslaved the black man. I'm sure people find some of that offensive. I'm offended by Mt Rushmore, should we have it torn down? How about the Lincoln Memorial? I'm sure some people are offended by Lincoln. Should it be taken down?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> December is for everyone.
> 
> December
> 
> ...


So, since it's for everyone, why deny the Christians?


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> So, since it's for everyone, why deny the Christians?


See, that is the thing. They weren't denying it before. They had the lottery, but then those spiteful people who didn't like that ruined them folks signs and the folks in charge decided that since some people couldn't respect other people's property, they would just end it for one and all.

You are right, a few bad apples, those that vandalized the signs, ruined the opportunity for all.

As for the public voting on it, I never said they did. I said that since it uses Public grounds, public facilities and public funds, then the public should vote for it. 

Would I protest the nativity scene? No, don't think I would. But I can imagine the uproar if some Muslim group started using public funds to portray their religion...... boy, heads would explode here and the venom spewed would be cringing.... but I wonder why that would be different?

Also, who is denying the Christians from caroling in the park? Stopping them from personal property displays? Oh right...NO ONE.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

J.T.M. said:


> I don't know if there is a war on Christmas or not , I honestly don't .* I do know that both sides of the issue goes out of its way to be insulted ... and that stinks* .


That is so sad, but true.
Here's the thing. Believers are called to live IN the world, but not be part of it.
There is so much in Scripture that tells us that the world is not all warm and fuzzy towards Christ, and it's a pretty messed up place to live in.

That tells me that it's not a Burger King world (have it your way).

As a Believer, we are Commanded to come out, and be separate.
Not step out and be jerks.

I just don't understand why christians would chose to 'show their back sides' 2 out of the 12 months a year....during a pagan holiday season.....in the Name of Christ?

That makes NO sense to me.

Scripture says: Philippians 2:5-11
*
5.Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:* Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself and became obedient to death&#8212;even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow,* in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and *every tongue confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


If I REALLY Believe what God says here, then I know that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
I do not need ANYONE to bow to *my* 'rights'.....
I do not need ANYONE to bow to *my* 'expression of my Faith'......
I do not need ANYONE to bow to *my* "wants, desires or will"..........

For a Believer, The Holy Bible trumps the Constitution, Bill of Rights and any other man made document.
If we LIVED like we Believed this......there would be no "war on christmas'......because it takes two to tango.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> How does a display of statues impose our religion on you? How does it hurt anyone? Maybe we should take down every statue every erected so as not to offend anyone. Maybe we should stop allowing the schools to teach any history because someone may be offended. After all, history talks about how the white man murdered the red man. How the white man enslaved the black man. I'm sure people find some of that offensive. I'm offended by Mt Rushmore, should we have it torn down? How about the Lincoln Memorial? I'm sure some people are offended by Lincoln. Should it be taken down?


There are statues of goddesses on top of a few state capitol buildings. Nary a word from unbelievers. And, yes, there are still folks who worship Greek and Roman gods and goddesses.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Hmm, now what was that about money and the *city not spending anything*???


Do you think those city employess *wouldn't *get paid if they* weren't* organizing the lottery?

I'm betting their salaries don't change at all


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Do you think those city employess *wouldn't *get paid if they* weren't* organizing the lottery?
> 
> I'm betting their salaries don't change at all


I am just quoting the OP's article, if you have a problem with that information, take it up with the OP. Are we to believe some of the article, but not other parts that don't help further the narrative and story that you want to prop up?

So does the city get free electricity? I don't know, but I would bet that it doesn't.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> So, since it's for everyone, why deny the Christians?


Are you kidding me? You quote my post which shows how many days and events there are dedicated in one month alone to Christianity, Christians, Christian Saints and Christ that outnumber and have superceded all other religions and religious traditions and over-lapping into the 2 months before and after and then you ask me 'why deny the Christians'? Did you even look at that list and see how many of them are dedicated to some form of Christianity?

Christians are undeniably existent and nobody is denying them. They outnumber all other religions in the world. _Some_ Christians like to believe they are being persecuted and they revel in their imaginary persecution because it helps them to feel like sanctimonious martyrs suffering for their cause. I thank God that not all Christians are like that and that it's only the indiscreet few who are the noisiest and most insecure in their faith that are the ones kicking up an unholy hallaballoo yelling "Look at me, look at my religion, look at my God!" They have turned it into a political thing that has nothing to do with the true spirit of Christ and have spoiled it for other Christians who are demure and humble about their faith.

If Christians want to put up idolatrous displays in celebration of the birth of Jesus they should put their idols up on their own private properties. The same thing goes for all other religions. Keep it to yourself on your own private property, don't shove it in my face in public places and public parks.

When you put up your idolatrous religious displays in public places you are defacing and polluting the most beautiful and most holy display of them all, that which is the natural display that was created by God.

.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Groups that have had the majority in terms of influence, numbers and control always start complaining when they start to face the realities that other groups have faced all their lives when they no longer have the upper hand.

Yes, now other religions and those with no religion at all are getting their fair share (and sometimes more) of say in what happens on public property. You are not being persecuted you are just now part of the "Whole" and no longer the focus.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Are we to believe some of the article, but not other parts that don't help further the narrative and story that you want to prop up?


You should be using *common sense*.
Since you repeated it, you obviously assumed it was a fact.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

As did the OP, by linking to it.

I agree, the Public workers will get paid for a 40 hour week, whether it is tending to the "Christmas Lottery" or doing repairs or work that is important for the city.

I know which one I would rather them get paid for, do you? Would you rather pay the city employee to take care of the city <i.e. replacing lights, potholes, etc> or catering to a bunch of vandalizing imbeciles that should just grow up and put their own decorations on their own property and thereby problem solved (you know, using that common sense). So which would you rather pay them for?

So, would you complain about a city using public funds, public workers and public time to portray Ramadan? Or is that okay as well?

If you have a problem with the article not showing common sense, then take it up with the person who posted it, otherwise, use some yourself..... and show me how it wouldn't cost the city extra.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> 1. It's not Jesus' Birthday.
> 
> 2. We, Believers, are not Commanded to celebrate His Birthday.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you have said, however I do feel like we need to be careful not to be pushed into the closet. I would hate to think we would let anyone make us hide the fact that we are Christians. 

And actually I am not disagreeing but I have actually stopped in front of nativity scenes and told my grandchildren the story of Jesus' birth. Seeing the scene made it a lot easier for me to explain it to them.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't think anyone is pushing Christians into the closet. If anything they are pushing them onto their own property, and I see no problem with that. Would the fervor be the same if the city had not 'allowed' the Gay or Lesbian groups the ability to put up displays? Or what about a display of Islamic backing? Would people be that upset over their 'refusal"?

Honestly, it is like when the kids are arguing over something so trivial and the easiest thing to do is to just remove the 'item' from the equation. That is what I see happening here.

Atheist can put up their displays on their property, and Christians can do the same. Same as (insert religious sect or belief). As another poster indicated above, they have the same opportunity as everyone else. It is all equal.

It isn't like they banned carolling or plays. Just took the irritant out of the equation. And it is unfortunate that some vandals had to ruin it for all of them.....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I know which one I would rather them get paid for, do you? Would you rather pay the city employee to take care of the city <i.e. replacing lights, potholes, etc> or catering to a bunch of vandalizing imbeciles that should just grow up and put their own decorations on their own property and thereby problem solved (you know, using that common sense). So which would you rather pay them for?


They get paid the same no matter what they are doing.
You REALLY don't know who tore up the signs, which were only there to :stirpot: anyway


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

chickenslayer said:


> No one here is getting nasty,And I don't recall any venom being spewed so lets not get so dramatic. Personally I don't care one way on the other about religious displays, but when you want to erect something on *PUBLIC* property, the public should have a say in it.


Absolutely. This is a democracy - so put it to a vote if necessary. The majority rules. The town where we owned property for many years has been going through this for years and it's making national headlines. The nativity scene is on the lawn of the local county court house where it has been for many years. And it looks like it is staying.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

There is always a simple test for checking your biases in your opinions. Substitute.
For example, if you subsititute "Civil Right Organizations" for "Church Group" and "evangelical Church" for "Organized Atheiests" , you would have "Civil rights groups barred from traditional use of park for celebration of progress by protests from a local evangelical church." 
If you find one repugnant while you find the other appropriate, then look to you for the problem. It may be hard to allow freedoms of expression to those you don't support lbut it is the only way to ensure those freedoms for those you do.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> There is always a simple test for checking your biases in your opinions. Substitute.
> For example, if you subsititute "Civil Right Organizations" for "Church Group" and "evangelical Church" for "Organized Atheiests" , you would have "Civil rights groups barred from traditional use of park for celebration of progress by protests from a local evangelical church."
> If you find one repugnant while you find the other appropriate, then look to you for the problem. It may be hard to allow freedoms of expression to those you don't support lbut it is the only way to ensure those freedoms for those you do.


No ones freedoms were not supported. All they did was give everyone the same level playing field. Lottery or nothing at all.


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