# Gas isn't workable for long-term storage, leaving ... batteries?



## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Heck, I can barely keep gas for a month ... a gallon of milk seems to outlast it 

So, as I peruse the old threads, chainsaws, etc., for fuel storage related issues and operation of the things that need gas, I'm coming to the conclusion that off-grid solar is about the only way ... that is, solar, driving battery-operated chainsaws, electric cars/4-wheelers/mopeds, & any other all-electric thingy in the home or outside (except where propane & firewood are available for a function). Inside, solar off-grid drives some or all; outside, RYOBI-like batteries drives some or all of the device lineup (and lineup keeps growing).

I keep propane on hand, and can stretch that to months or (a few) years, and wood would keep on forever (albeit the amount would reduce down as my gathering efficiency is reduced), but for practical everyday use, I can't think of anything better than battery-operated devices. Think a string of RYOBI devices, all running from the battery size of your choice.

I'd need enough solar capacity to run enough battery chargers to supply those devices, and enough batteries from RYOBI or others on-hand to drive the things that I can run long after the gas gives out. I don't know how much mileage you get out of your rechargeables, but mine seem to last years, and I've actually rebuilt one (pried it open, replaced the batteries, charged it up again, and didn't die in the process 

Thus, the only flaws might be: a.) how long can we keep such batteries in storage, to replenish our needs as the current crop dies out, and b.) what devices can you get in the RYOBI-like line of devices (chainsaws, tillers, etc.)

Just need to think thru the acquisition & storage of the requisite pieces ...

Thoughts? Other flaws that my captain obvious split-personality didn't catch?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

Isn't this Homesteading Today ? you get rid of all those new fangled devices and get a team of horses.
a few implements and a buck saw and a good ax.
a few hand tools. 

seriously, for the items you have to mix oil and gas for, and don't use them for long periods. empty the gas mixture and put it into your truck or tractor. the oil will not harm them.. keep rotating your gas supply.. use non ethanol gas for storage, it lasts longer.. might cost two bits per can more..
I understand your post was "tongue in cheek"
at least I hope so..
//////jiminwisc/////


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Sure, it's HST, but a.) I'm in the SEP forum, and 2.) I want multiple layers ...

I understand the strategy of replacing each modern item w/ the equivalent old-way item, like a gas tiller w/ a draft horse, or a chainsaw w/ handtools. That's a layer (the last layer?) ... with it's own set of issues.

While I'm not opposed to the old-way strategy *very* long-term (especially as modern stuff dies out and I can't repair it), it's definitely cheaper & easier to stick a battery into storage, vs a draft horse. Given the increase in new-fangled-ness capabilities, a RYOBI-like battery scheme lets me extend the tech period, at much more convenience (for awhile), than anything gas-based, and w/o the extensive infrastructure requirements of the horse layer. These things (strategies? layers?) just weren't available in the old days ... they at least need some consideration.

I'm thinking more in terms of my back, I guess ... make it last as long as possible before I turn LHotP. I don't trust how easy the Ingalls family made it look ... I'm pushing that layer to the last.

If fallback items are the strategy, or layers of fallback, then perhaps it is: 0.) gas lasts about a month or so, and runs out ... all gas devices fall over 1.) battery-operated devices (I'm already off-grid, and can support battery charging) lasts me 1 or more years (and I'm thinking 2 - 5 yrs, if I store things correctly), 2.) hand-tools next, if the technology goes quicker than I thought, and 3.) the old ways, if I can keep a horse from dying under my care/feeding, or from being shot/eaten by the hordes ...

To be honest, I don't know what the scenario/hordes will allow, I'm just layering on the layers (sorry) in hopes that the best/easiest layer is there when I need it ...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the pre mixed fuel in a can has a 2 year shelf life 

pump gas if you add a stabilizer will last much longer than the month your getting, how much longer has a lot to do with how it is stored.

I keep hearing good things about https://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Strat...&keywords=briggs+and+stratton+fuel+stabilizer

but I bought a bunch of seafoam on sale and haven't tried the briggs product yet.

I also rotate and use 91 octane ethanol free so I don't use the seafoam even that often.

I label my cans with painters tape on the spout with the date purchased.

although I was thinking the other day , what good would would my great chainsaws and fresh mixed gas be in a a state of anarchy I would draw attention for miles.

so I just figure I am prepping for the next storm to rip through and close every road , I am just finishing burning the wood from the last storm that blocked all the roads in every direction.

having stores of gas in cans in handy , I end up using most of it in rotation when she who will not be named leaves her van on E and we have somewhere we need to be. dump a can or two in and go.

I like the EZ-pour spouts I pick up cans on sale and old cans and fix them with the spout kit 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYNDNM...d_r=96080fb3-12fc-11e9-bb11-db82b665058b&th=1

or for storage just caps

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NB3UUD...s Tank Cap (Coarse Thread)&sb-ci-a=B00NB3UUDK

even my bar oil is in a can with an ez-pour I just knocked the screen out on those spouts


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Hubby puts Sta-Bil in gas when he buys it. We've had some last a few years. Seems like the higher octanes last longer. 

His brother put leftover oil and gas mix for the off road motorcycles into our car once. Messed it up good, it never did run right after. He put almost 5 gallons in the car when the tank was nearly empty. This was a '79 4 cyl, don't know how it would affect newer cars but I do know I would be very upset if someone put an oil-gas mix in my vehicles.

But that wasn't your question was it? The problem with the batteries and solar chargers would be the eventual deterioration of both the panel and batteries. And even then, eventually the tools wear out. But there are a bunch of tools you can buy that are battery operated. Just about everything from mowers to pole chain saws. I think as time goes on there will be a larger choice of battery operated devices. I know Stihl has a nice line of heavier equipment. The big problem is the huge assortment, both of brands and battery capacities. There is not currently a single line that carries every possible tool or a compatible battery range. Flashlights and drills don't need as heavy a battery where mowers, chainsaws and vacuums need heavier batteries. And some areas simply don't have the capacity for solar charging that other areas do. You would need a larger array in low light areas and seasons.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

Some fuels that will run some engines will keep much better such as alcohol and kerosene also i have it on good authority that aviation gas while more expensive was developed to stay good for many years its also has higher octane rating.Apparently the AVGAS was developed not just because of greater reliability being needed for aircraft but as part of our cold war era homeland security needs.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

I've been running RYOBI tools for longer than I can remember, because of Home Depot.

Electric chainsaw, flashlights/lanterns, power tools, etc. ... all run off of std (ryobi) 18v rechargeable batteries. The batteries have gotten bigger/better thru the years, w/ 40+ volt batteries . I'm impressed about what ryobi (and all the competitors) are doing with battery-driven tools.

My thoughts were to keep this system of battery devices running long after the grid (& corded) devices were done, with the off-grid solar stuff keeping things charged; this saves my back a little longer.

The battery-powered power tools scheme still seems workable, given the right storage of pieces of the system; about the only flaw I've thought of is long-term storage of the batteries (how long?), trickle-charging them to keep them alive, etc. I think the newer lithium batteries save me there ... 

As a bonus, there are NO GUN RESTRICTIONS on the nail guns  Buy as many of the guns as you want, and as much nail ammo as you need ... open carry (tool belt), etc., and the ryobi green color is too cool ... none of my other guns come close (to this color). Haven't tested on the local flora & fauna yet, as I can't sneak up close enough to "nail them" ... sorry ... there's an off-switch somewhere ...


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

https://itstillruns.com/convert-engine-gas-alcohol-7403441.html


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nail gun worked well for Danny Glover in one of the Lethal Weapon movies, can't remember if it was 2 or 3.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Nothing lasts forever, eventually it will be back to the hand tools.


Moonshine is a great alternative fuel and is easily made, especially if you do not intend to drink it as that version is much easier to make.

Much of the new equipment is already highly moonshine compatable….a quick youtube search will yield all the information you need to know, because in the end, information is king .


Small solar systems are great for lights, charging some tool batteries etc or even offsetting some of your current power usage in case of short term emergencies, especially if you do a system that is not only tied to batteries, some systems need no batteries and still work when the sun is shining...batteries will eventually fail.


The key to anything is matching it to your needs/skills...…….at some point the body is no longer to operate manual machines, at some point all things fail and at some point you will no longer care about the 2 previous failings.


Self sustinence is a hard road, the biggest thing you can do is reduce....reduce the need for lights, reduce the need for machines, reduce ,reduce, reduce,...…….food/water/shelter...….minimal output for the biggest gains in those 3, will eliminate many needs.


Water supply to me is number one, we can eat almost anything and anyone...……..and shelter can be a glorified brush pile..…….....electric and gas is optional , reduce reliance as much as possible, reduce creature comforts......we heat in cool in weather that is not needed in most cases...…...fire is the easiest and at the point you can not make fire and freeze to death, you die.


Which is the greatest inescapable fact there is, at some point you can`t or will not want to continue...…


Redundancy...…...some decent hand tools, a electric chainsaw as batteries last 10 years or so now with small solar charger, a gas saw that will run on moonshine, stock piling wood now, do you want to cut wood under fire or when bandits are about....you can stock pile quite a bit of wood with minimal steps to keep it good for 10 or more years.


Water is heavy and the most critical and if you have a mile walk to get it, it will be one of the first things the body can not do....water is heavy stuff to move any distance.

Design things now, so it becomes easier when the times are tuff...….second story bedroom is a bad idea, stairs get thousands per year, heating a huge area is waste and keeping the area 80 degrees is a waste...….super insulate now, to save now and make life cheaper and easier later....reduce reduce reduce.


I live very comfortable in about 400 square feet.....plenty of room, not cramped...…...probably could reduce down to 200 square feet before everything was about space constraints, at 400, I never really give space a thought.


The more you can reduce daily tasks and make them easier the better...….consolidate, minimize and make them as easy as possible. Reduce maintenance and care items to a minimal,....does it require yearly or every 5 years to keep from breaking or leaking or failing, lowes will not be open if you are in a survival situation.


Construct a daily lifestyle right now to make it easier when we get old/lazy/hurt or a event happens...…...redundancy and reduction...…...certain garden items are high yield low input, some are super high input, low yield. Some animals are the same, you want low input, high yield.

Storage of food is huge...…..the bigger the better,...….you can not plan for everything, but you can be ready for most things. If all your food storage is canned goods, good luck ever moving more than 6 months of that if a situation arose where you had to leave your primary residence...canned good are extremely heavy and fragile, diversify, reduce, minimize.

Adopting a lifestyle now and minimizing is the best prep you can do...…..if you are already living it, then adaptation will take no time at all when some event happens. 


It is simple to see what you need right now, go out and flip the main breaker off, then leave it off for a week,...…...you will know pretty quick where your preps are short.

You would be shocked at what a cheap 500 buck solar system will do after the power has been down for a week...….12 volt led lights, charge cordless tools...….even run small things from a cheap 100 watt inverter meant for the car......laptops etc will still charge. A small solar panel, a car sized battery and a small inverter are cheap...…...a couple led lights in the house that are 12v can run for weeks on just a single small rechargeable battery, a large battery will power these lights for months and months...……


If you live up north where it gets crazy cold and deep snow and you think in the next 5 to 10 years you might not be able to fell a tree and tote and chop it by hand, you might want to move now....cold deep winters off the grid require much physical endurance...…...same thing if you live where it gets 110 all the time and it requires A/C all the time...…


Its not logical to prep at 65 in the Alaskan bush or in the Sonora desert unless you accept the fact that preps will be limited and you might not make it, of course, one can accept the fact they might not make it anywhere and at that point, you can accept not prepping either.


Location location location, minimize minimize minimize......reduce reduce reduce...….I have lived in places it is soo easy to survive you could easily do it and some places it was fight to barely exist. No reason to make it a up hill fight when not forced.


Do what you can, do what you need/use and make peace with the chips falling where they may as you will never cover all contingencies or possibilities...….make the comfort zone and cushion you can....because you might fall over in 10 minutes or live to be 100 and long enough to wear a axe and saw down to keychain bobbles...….nothing lasts forever including us, prepare accordingly and make peace with that.


I prep for a depression type event or a mother nature type event, but do not worry much about a madmax style event where it has went to heck and is never returning, that's no life and no place to raise a family......if it has all feel apart for 5 to 10 years, all preps and plans are probably void at that time anyway.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

For long term there is not a great solution. You will run out of gas or propane. You will get too feeble to cut wood by hand or carry water. Growing enough food to keep the reaper at bay is a lot of work. 

Solar may be the longest term solution. The panels have 25 year warranties and probably will last lots longer than that. Charge controllers may last a long time or die tomorrow, keep a spare or 2. Batteries last about 5 years. Batteries that come dry with a bag of acid keep indefinitely so keep spares. You should get 25 years past the EMP crash of the grid. After that I'll be dead and won't care.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

When the grid crashes it will make very little difference how well you have prepped. The trick at that point will be hanging on to whatever you might have long enough to use any of it. Mad max will look like paradise. Like it or not mankind has grown totally dependent on the grid for its survival. In the words of a great president.... "It's too big to fail". Yeah, he was talking about the banks, but it the same principle. For those unfortunate enough to survive the first wave of mass hysteria and the mayhem and slaughter produced by the lack of food, water, and basic nessecities, there will follow massive spread of disease brought on by the rotting corpses littering the ground, polluting the water and air. Best for everyone to keep the grid up and running.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

people and all these doomsday scenarios....its just bull tucky. I swear these people just sit around and invent things in their heads.
No I doubt it will ever be that bad frankly...and there simple is absolutely no reason for it to be so, or any real indication it would be so. What is everyone suddenly going to forget how physics work and science in general? no...we will not....ergo., everything that we have done already, we will know how to do again, so 'if' anything happens to magically wipe everything out, we would simply rebuild it. People are people...we are not going to immediately start roaming the countryside trying to kill everyone and take their stuff, anymore than we already are now. Our guns will still work perfectly fine, a EMP isn't going to zap them all out of commission...and guess what? if it does...we will still make more.
If the so called 'grid' goes out, and magically gets 'zapped by a ray gun of grid zapping' guess what? we will repair it or ad-hoc it back together again, it is that simple. EMP's do not destroy everything, even if there was to be one that was powerful enough to stop it from working, 99% of whatever is zapped is still going to work...this isn;t the movies...a emp doesn't make things blow up with huge explosions that look cool. it just creates a electromotive force that causes electronic migration and shorts out a 'possible' weak connection within the device. sort of like when a light bulb burns out, it does'nt actually destroy the filament inside completely it just disconnects part of it and you can see the rest hanging inside the light bulb...if you reconnected that filament, guess what? the light bulb would work again.
would gas pumps stop working because maybe the electricity to them would stop working? well, yes perhaps. but trust me, we'd make manual pumps to get that gas out of those tanks fine, or just fix the electricity, or use a type of solar pump, or a hand made generator or, or , or,or...we'd be on it like white on rice though, you can count on it. you can invent all sorts of stupid situations and problems in your head all you want, but the truth is each and every one of them we would find the solution to, and fix it...because that is what we do as humans. 
Stop being fools, seriously....we have enough problems to actually worry about without inventing things...and hey...looks like we made it past Y2k too....amaaaaazing.....not.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

You must not have talked with your parents about the depression era...…..things can get bad and did over night...…….people are very different now than then...……..forgetting a order of fries gets a 911 call now.


It would be the watts riots on a nation wide scale if hit depression era conditions now...…..maybe you are very far away from the massive impact the housing collapse had in 2008, but where we are, the homeless epidemic it caused is still daily and real....many of those people are living a mad max life right now under our noses.

We have mobile shanty towns of RV`s and vans packed with people living in them.....plus a huge population in the local river bottoms, who deal with rape/theft, murder and OD on a daily basis......nothing out of the ordinary to run across a dead one, theft is accepted like the delivery of the newspaper, it is expected daily...….


Solar flares are a very real danger, if we get another one like we had 100 years ago in this country, experts pretty much agree we are looking at 5-10 years to get back to normal......if rule of law holds up...…..we had the fire burn a few lines in our area last year and power was down for a week, ice storms that happen each year take down power up to a couple weeks in some areas...…….we are not recovering from a mild solar flare in 6 weeks, more like 6 years.....


It is foolish, well I will not even call it that, it is not something I would do is a better designation, I would not prep for a alien invasion, but there are far worse things going on, so I do not judge...some people spend their entire life making things look just so from car to house, which I believe is a wasted life...but it is theirs to waste.


What is foolish is to sit around thinking nothing can happen, what a person chooses to do about that is up to them...……...I understand if a person wants to do whatever they wants to do......even though I do not live in a bunker ready for doomsday, I fully get that there is a good chance that can happen.....having been in a few record setting disasters on the ground living it, I can see where things can degrade quite rapidly....

Both disasters were worlds apart and both had some horrific unpublished things that went on that were levels of rule of law being lost...…...it can slip out of control very quickly...…..I was not personally at ground zero for Katrina, but know people who were and it was madmax there for a while...….things that never made the news....


I do not want to scare you, I have friends that are private contractors that have been to many countries and we are no different here, things escalate out of control very rapidly as it would here.....even in recent natural disasters they have been to, there is a very very very small group that restores power and order and roads......if that group does not take action, people will fall into chaos pretty quick or at best, stay in the dark without roads.

There are do`ers and waiters.....by a huge margin most people are waiters, waiting around for things to get fixed and even if they wanted to help, have no idea how to restore high voltage service to thousands or how to run a D9 dozer to open a road, so they also wait for the do`ers...….. The few keep things going for the many, when the truckers stop running, it is 48 hours until chaos, unless a do`er steps in......most people are 9 meals away from anarchy......it just feels good to pretend they are not going to bludgeon the people next door for food after a few days with no food and it is comforting to think the people next door will not bludgeon you and eat you, so we all feel good pretending it can not or will not happen....


Just ask them soccer players in the crashed plane what they thought the next week was going to look like before the plane crash and if they ever envisioned what they would be living 24 hours later...….it only took one do`er to cook up some meat and take the first bite, then the waiters we on board and full steam ahead...….its not good to plan tomorrow around it and it is not good to ignore the possibilities...…..

I actually sleep a little easier knowing there are people who live in bunkers, the human race has a chance to keep on without me living in a bunker.....and even though I do not live in a bunker, I know there is a good chance they might need that bunker at some point...…..it is sheer luck and chance we have not nuked each other or another solar flare has not fired off directly at us.......satellite reception gets diminished all the time from near misses...…


Live your life like there is no tomorrow or not,...its peoples own life, do what you will...…...make the choices that make you happy. But out of all the things I see people do, preparing for tomorrow is one of the better choices I see made....whatever your vision of tomorrow is.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Back when I was a petroleum storage specialist in the US of A army we used to send 55 gallon drums of Aviation Fuel to the combat areas. We expected that gas to be good for at least five years if left sealed. I do not remember ever putting any jet fuel in barrels.

Here in the boonies I buy nothing but non-ethanol gasoline for my small engines, some of them being very old. For small two-cycle engines I keep on hand some of the expensive pre-mix, I find that it will start and run engines that are slow to start on a service-station gas and oil mix. Once the engines are warm and free I cut them off and finish filling the tank with high-octane non-ethanol and oil mix. My four stroke engines all get a straight dose of 87-octane non ethanol, but I run the carbs dry before I put the engines away. 

I do not expect to ever see the disaster that will drive us back to the stone age. People just will not put up with that. Recovery would be a matter of only a few months. Even if it took years the tough would still thrive at a lower level of expectations.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Nov 11, 2018)

Well, I've successfully stirred the pot ... running away now ...

I have to agree with elements of both the con- and pro-SHTF versions above. I like "hope for the best, plan for the worst", as I can't pick a winner at the horse races to save my life.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)




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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Well I just discovered an alkaline battery fail. Had a package of AAA Duracell quantums in the toolbox in the basement. It's still a few years before their "expiration" date but the batteries are no good. Won't even work in a flashlight. Duracell is replacing them but that was our reserve stash.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

You might be able to work something out using hydrogen. Use sunlight and solar panels to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Then use a fuel cell when you need it to recombine the O and H, generating electricity and H2O. This may last a long time. Solar panels are warranted for 25 years and probably will go well beyond that, splitting water uses platinum as a catalyst so none is consumed, and you are not going to wear out the water.


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## markt1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Solar is great for limited electrical power. Unless you but a forklift battery, however, the lifespan is at most about 10 years even with ones designed for solar (I have a 1260 watt array). There is no reliable data on whether solar panels would actually survive an EMP attack, which makes me uneasy. I have looked at Devilwatt's 100 watt thermoelectric modules that can be attached to the sides of a wood stove. Expensive, but usable even in the depths of winter when solar doesn't. There is a guy on YouTube (Mr Teslonian) who has a wood gasifier able to make usable oil and gasoline in limited amounts.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Bob M. said:


> people and all these doomsday scenarios....its just bull tucky. I swear these people just sit around and invent things in their heads.
> No I doubt it will ever be that bad frankly...and there simple is absolutely no reason for it to be so, or any real indication it would be so. What is everyone suddenly going to forget how physics work and science in general? no...we will not....ergo., everything that we have done already, we will know how to do again, so 'if' anything happens to magically wipe everything out, we would simply rebuild it. People are people...we are not going to immediately start roaming the countryside trying to kill everyone and take their stuff, anymore than we already are now. Our guns will still work perfectly fine, a EMP isn't going to zap them all out of commission...and guess what? if it does...we will still make more.
> If the so called 'grid' goes out, and magically gets 'zapped by a ray gun of grid zapping' guess what? we will repair it or ad-hoc it back together again, it is that simple. EMP's do not destroy everything, even if there was to be one that was powerful enough to stop it from working, 99% of whatever is zapped is still going to work...this isn;t the movies...a emp doesn't make things blow up with huge explosions that look cool. it just creates a electromotive force that causes electronic migration and shorts out a 'possible' weak connection within the device. sort of like when a light bulb burns out, it does'nt actually destroy the filament inside completely it just disconnects part of it and you can see the rest hanging inside the light bulb...if you reconnected that filament, guess what? the light bulb would work again.
> would gas pumps stop working because maybe the electricity to them would stop working? well, yes perhaps. but trust me, we'd make manual pumps to get that gas out of those tanks fine, or just fix the electricity, or use a type of solar pump, or a hand made generator or, or , or,or...we'd be on it like white on rice though, you can count on it. you can invent all sorts of stupid situations and problems in your head all you want, but the truth is each and every one of them we would find the solution to, and fix it...because that is what we do as humans.
> Stop being fools, seriously....we have enough problems to actually worry about without inventing things...and hey...looks like we made it past Y2k too....amaaaaazing.....not.


Have you ever traveled to a third world country? Most of the population in the world does not have electricity, running water or a vehicle. In America we take so much for granted, it just makes me laugh. We are just one good power outage from third world conditions. Just because it has not happened yet doesn't mean it can't. 

We live in a very fragile bubble, with no back up system or even a plan. When Katrina hit New Orleans, they evacuated the city. Only twenty five present of the original population has moved back, because it still hasn't been cleaned up.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

The real and only way to go is to limit the reliance on electricity...
Heat your house with an "all burner" that preferably also heats your warm water
Water pumps etc can be electric...but also say good bye to forced hot air and air conditioner...
baseboard and radiant is the way to go...
Have 2-3 vertical or horizontal wind gens on the property...(no idea why some states are so con them)
Have some solar, some battery and UPS devices to buffer here and there...
Cook with Gas or when you can get a wood cook stove...not only cool in a square, also practical like no tomorrow.
If you have a well pump, get a cistern or bury food grade IBC totes so that you have water storage for the time your solar cannot operate your water pump.
If you are handy, get a wood gassifier together for the generator or stove in kitchen/boiler/house heating...
And the by far most important part of all...AIR SEAL and outsulate THE HOUSE...the less energy you need to life the less you need to produce on dayli basis...
A gazzilion steps from gird forced to off grid...any step makes you more "free" besides property taxes and maybe mortgage...


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Have a 2kw solar install, 8, Rolls Surrette S550's Deep Cycle Lead Acid Batteries = 856 Amp Hours / 22kw @ 24 Volts with 1/2 that as usable. (Lithium was too crazy when I went solar), Midnite Classic-200 controller, Samlex EVO 4024 Inverter/Charger. This system is on a Fixed Ground Mount @ 45 Degrees which is best "average" angle for my location and provides plenty of power Year Round and the system is usually in Float between 10-12 am.
Other items to make life cheap & efficient.
- Energy efficient fridge which only uses 540kwh for a year.
- Unique Offgrid Propane cook stove (no pilots)
- EcoTemp on-demand propane hot water heater 
- Takagi TH3M On-demand propane heater for radiant floor heating system 
- High efficiency wood stove in corner (only use average 1 stove cord [8'x4'x18"] per year)
- Grundfos Sq-5 120V Soft Start deep well pump, 250' deep and pushing to 50 Gal pressure tank then 75' to house.

Propane was installed as a preliminary till a Bio-Digester could be put in place, unfortunately due to health issues plus, projects have been pulled back considerably. Converting LPG appliances to Biogas is fairly easy and can be done DY or with semi-commercial small scale systems and it has been proven to work in most areas with some exceptions.

The house is hyper efficient in insulation and uses a Frost Protected Slab Foundation as well with double code required insulation. The entire combination works well and there is never an issue of no power as the solar system can auto start the generator but never has. We use no "Power Hogs" like a 240V Dryer or Cookstove and obviously no electric heating at all. All lights are LED and electrical items as efficient as possible but not crazy expensive crap either. Due to our lifestyle and being ex-mil there is triple redundancy for essentials plus and never had to rely on the fall backs yet, in 5 years.

IF someone insists you cannot make it work for you or it will cost a massive pile of cash, plug your ears and move on. It takes, thought, planning, an ability to do things (DIY etc) and a cautious & considered approach while not listening to every shrub in the bush and weeding out the nonsense. For what I spent on my battery bank 5 years ago, I could install a nice Lithium pack that would give me the same but 20+ years of service and little to no hassle. Solar panels will last 25 years and the related electronics can last a very long time as well. IF you have appropriate conditions, the use of small wind turbines can work very well and provide not only electricity but heat hot water as a dump load, as well solar heating of water can also be a very cost effective (low to free) way of making hot water & even part heating.

I have not read through this particular forum but likely most of what I've put here has been covered to one degree or another here by different folks. Consider what you can do and how it can best fit to your needs & wants, plus Budget of course which is always a factor that we have to deal with. Many of the things I mentioned can be done over time and scaled up as needed, wanted or as afforded as long as you plan ahead when you start getting more freedom & independence from relying on externals for your needs. You know, it feels great having power & no damned power bills !


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I bought 'Land' 20+ years ago without finding out about utilities...
The power company wanted $15,000 up front for a ground mount transformer,
And another $118,000 for poles, wires, etc back a mile off the county road.
That was more than double what I paid for the 45 acres, a second & third mortgage before I had a first mortgage.

The rural water company wouldn't talk to me for any price.
They wouldn't run a water line, and wouldn't connect me if I ran the water line.

I *Was* going to 'Cowboy' it with oil lamps...
While building out of pocket because the bank wouldn't lend on 'Unimproved' land, I built a privvy (crapper & shower).
The shower was a black barrel that heated up in sunlight (solar thermal) mounted overhead, and transporting water was a HUGE pain in the butt!

I used battery powered tools from 20+ years ago, a '73 Jeep & chain saw.

If you remember battery powered tools from 20 years ago, either dead, didn't last long doing actual hard work,and the batteries cost more than the tools.

I bought a lawn mower powered generator.
Nothing like listening to that thing scream all day when you used it maybe 10 minutes an hour.

Since the Jeep had two batteries, I pulled the tool batteries apart, attached cords, and used the second Jeep battery for power.
That actually worked pretty well, and 'Cordless' tools are at every yard sale dirt cheap, so tool costs when way down.

When I got a golf cart for cheap, that changed everything.
While the Jeep would pull a plow, disc, had a winch, etc,
The golf cart had a long sun roof that eventually got solar panels and would charge itself over the week, and it provides power all weekend while I was working.
I installed an inverter, added extension cord reels, 110vac power tools were now easy.
I installed 12VDC air compressor, and a larger tire filler tank and I had air power for tools, tires, blowing out lines, etc.
Again, a hose and reel, and it was easy transportation when I didn't want to mess with the Jeep.

Now, the Jeep with two batteries, and my 'Jumper' cables, I could stick weld.
With two batteries, the Jeep would run all day if the alternator quit.
No problem getting to town for another alternator (which happened).

I built a root cellar, two earth sheltered dry/cool storage rooms,
When the well got drilled, I cut a hole in the floor for air pipes & well head,
Sit it on a 'French' drain, and earth sheltered it.
With buried air pipes (8' down) I have cool air in summer, earth temp 'warm' air in winter, so my 'energy' issues for the 'Utilities' building, cool storage & root cellar was nature and took no 'Fuel'.

Air from the earth sheltered storage can be re-circulated to warm/cool, or it can be pulled in through long runs of pipe to warm/cool outside air.
A vent pipe straight up vents warm air out through convection, and through siphon on the pipe (like a chimney), and that draws in cooler air from the buried pipe.
Recirculation requires a low pressure (volume) fan which is energy efficient.
This requires nothing more than trencher or backhoe to install, and the pipe...
It's geothermal, using the ground/earth as a big thermal mass.

-----------

I was so impressed with the golf cart/solar PV panels, I went with solar PV for electrical power.
Panels, batteries, inverters, 110vac & 220vac power just like most homes in America, no difference in usage.
The water pressure tanks & filters, batteries, inverters all went into a 20' shipping container that's earth sheltered & temp controlled.
It can get humid in the summer, but it never freezes or bakes, and being metal, it's mostly fire proof, it's tornado, bug proof, and it's more secure than any common house.

The solar panels are above ground (duh), everything else is earth sheltered, temp stable, tornado proof, and mostly out of sight.

When it came time for the home, same deal, earth sheltered, south facing to take advantage of direct sunlight, air tubes to pre-heat/cool air, super insulated.
From ground temp to room temp is 5*F to 10*F, not -10*F to 70*F, or 100*F to 70*F.
Again, the bulk of the energy is mother Earth, or the sun.

----------------

While I guess I *Could* grow crops to make alcohol,
Or try to squeeze oil from crops, then convert it to bio-diesel,
I find that buying propane in the summer while prices are down, and storing in free underground tanks is cost effective.

I *Could* heat the home and cook with a wood burner, which I have installed as a backup,
The propane is just too handy, and propane never spoils...

The golf cart has no air, fuel, oil filters, it doesn't take crankcase, transmission or differential oils, no liquid fuels,
Just a sunny day, and since I didn't get a charger when I got the golf cart, the solar panels (bought surplus) have been working just fine for 20 years.
Axle bearings & tires, a couple electrical relays, and some creative wiring, no real issues for 20 years...

----------------

Science warning...

With the charge density & useable return of charge power, the LiFeP04 batteries (charge density),
And the charge cycles/life span of LiFeP04 batteries (10-15 years),
And the ever reducing price of these batteries (comparable to lead acid batteries when life span is figured in)
(Not considering the maintenance free, and safety of these batteries)
I've been switching over to Tesla S and LiFeP04 batteries as my lead acid needs replaced, energy needs are pretty well covered.

The only changes to my solar power system was charge controllers when I switched to LiFeP04 batteries, about $30 for each battery string, enough strings to power the home for about a week without direct sunlight.

-------------

The old golf cart is probably going to be my last set of lead acid batteries that power the house when I'm not using them to work on the homestead.
I simply plug the golf cart into the battery bank/inverter when it's not working, no sense in that much power just sitting there doing nothing...

And just for the record,
It was REAL simple to convert the generators over to propane, gas or diesel, it's stupid simple and about $300 for a full on conversion kit, about $100 if you piece it together.

If you wonder how much all this costs, including a well thought out septic system, keep in mind I haven't paid a utility bill in 20+ years.
While price has come down and efficiency went up on solar panels,
The prices went down on inverters, and inverters now 'Cascade', so a big honking single inverter doesn't have to 'Idle' and draw energy,
Batteries will be your biggest expense by far.

My system can be reproduced for $25k to $30k easily.
That's well drilling, well pump, container to house the equipment, the batteries, inverters, etc.
We use normal appliances, we just look for energy efficiency.
We use normal lights, just energy efficient bulbs.
We avoid things like electric stoves, electric furnaces, electric cloths dryer, these are electrical energy hogs, and it's more efficient to use propane for making heat anyway.

When I fire up the welder/generator in the shop to do paying jobs, you can easily run an electric cloths dryer, charge the batteries (if not fully charged), fill the water pressure tanks up, etc just from the waste energy that generator produces.
It takes one power transfer switch to do all that everytime the generator fires up, no problem at all.
It's a diesel converted to propane (I got tired of lugging diesel cans), the easiest way to aquire an industrial grade engine & generator was a welder I already needed for my job...


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

I recently upgraded my Solar System's Inverter/Charger with a Samlex EVO 4024 REF: https://www.samlexamerica.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=575 and while it may be 4000W it only uses 18W in power save mode & is fully programmable as to when to kick on & off plus a whole lot more. Compared to my previous 3000 watt Inverter/Charger which used 40W on standby (doesn't seem like a lot but over 24 hours it adds up ! )

If anyone has a Generator they want to switch to Propane and don't feel like "inventing" the conversion, there are conversion kits which are very affordable REF: https://centuryfuelproducts.com/ BUT it should be noted that not all generators can be auto-started without some mods (Gasoline or LPG) due to their carburetors (manual choke) or some other quirk.

On Batteries !
JeepHammer hit on it a bit. For our US Neighbours, you have some amazingly good options there and access to EV Batteries & LiFePO4 are falling incredibly... You can go all Lithium for LESS than Lead Acid now thanks to the recycle / upcycle of EV batteries nd increased manufacturing worldwide. Below are some useful links that may help.
Batteries @ EVWest (California) : https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
Solar Powered Off Grid Back Up Schematic (PDF) https://evwest.com/support/EV%20West%20Off%20Grid%20Back%20Up.pdf
** You can Charge your EV ! Imagine not having to pay for Gasoline / Diesel again ! (Freedom from the money suckers)


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

There is a 'Dummies' guide to lithium batteries, and it includes LiFeP04 batteries.

The reason I went Tesla S and LiFeP04 batteries was USED batteries.
While it won't push a car 300 miles at 70mph, they SURE let you figure out how to use them, and there is plenty of life left in them.
And let's not forget the 15% of new cost!

What I did...
When I got up & running, I figured out I needed a LOT more batteries than I had.
The cheapest ($$$) way I could find was USED steel case fork truck batteries.
While the battery won't push a fork truck all day, it WILL give you a BUNCH of amp hours, and I bought mine for scrap weight.

By the time they finally gave up, scrap weight had gone up, and I actually made money on them.

My best finds were dead cells.
In the big batteries the bridges (connections) between cells are external,
You simply saw through the bridges between cells and drill/tap the bridges of the good cells on either side and jump the dead cell with a cable.
Some of the steel case batteries lasted 10 years, and at scrap weight instead of new battery price, they were the deal of the century!

You ARE looking at several hundred pounds to over a ton, so you need some way to move them.
I used steel bars as rollers under the cases, which made them manageable...

-----------

The charge density, and the number of charge cycles is what makes Lithium/LiFe batteries worth the cost.
Since you can discharge 80% or more of capacity without damaging the battery (compared to 25% with common lead/acid batteries)
And at triple or quadrupled the number of charge cycles, you get a crap ton of power back out of the batteries compared to lead/acid.
When you can get 50-60% more back out on each discharge, and the battery lasts 4x the number of charge cycles, it comes out CHEAPER in the long run to run lithium/LiFeP04 batteries, and a new charge controller is about all you need to convert.

With more & more EVs showing up in junk yards, and with so many Lithium/LiFeP04 batteries showing up used and surplus/new for cheap, it's just an issue of tracking them down.
Once you learn to wire in series or parallel, any size can be used from AA size to vehicle size.

For 'Preppers' it would be a life time thing, with a 10-15 year life opposed to 5 years max with automotive, or 8 years with a perfectly maintained true deep cycle, this should be a no-brainer.

I'm not a 'Prepper', but I'm messing with super capacitors, which are still a little expensive and it's a DIY thing, no one is currently making a common super cap system for solar/RE...
BUT,
There is no expiration date on super caps, they are extremely high efficiency, and they theoretically last forever.
They charge a little slow, but you can't over draw them.
*IF* it pans out, and it's looking pretty good right now about 2 years in, these will be what I swap batteries for the next time...


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## WolfBrother (Sep 22, 2003)

WB Edited to Specific:


50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Heck, I can barely keep gas for a month ... a gallon of milk seems to outlast it


Pri-G works.

Pre-Y2K a friend of mine asked me to help him one weekend. His wife's mother had given them the ranch. (Don't make Mom made, she's liable to say, " You and your husband has been out here nearly every weekend helping since Dad died. Your lazy A$$ brothers have maybe been here twice. The ranch is yours.". 

We were cleaning overgrown weeds, grass, and brush away from the out buildings. Mid-afternoon I had cleared out in front of a shed and got the door open. I looked in and hollered to Bob, "Hey, there's 5 GI gas cans in here.".

Long story short - 8 years before Bob and FILaw went into town and filled them. FILaw put double the long term storage amount of Pri-G in each can and they were put in the shed. FILaw's health went bad not long after that and the cans sat there.

They were all stale gas smelling. We put double the Long Term storage amount in them again and used the gas in the tractor. The exhaust had a stale smell to it but it worked.

After that, Pri-G became a part of my fixers.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

Oxankle said:


> Back when I was a petroleum storage specialist in the US of A army we used to send 55 gallon drums of Aviation Fuel to the combat areas. We expected that gas to be good for at least five years if left sealed. I do not remember ever putting any jet fuel in barrels.
> 
> Here in the boonies I buy nothing but non-ethanol gasoline for my small engines, some of them being very old. For small two-cycle engines I keep on hand some of the expensive pre-mix, I find that it will start and run engines that are slow to start on a service-station gas and oil mix. Once the engines are warm and free I cut them off and finish filling the tank with high-octane non-ethanol and oil mix. My four stroke engines all get a straight dose of 87-octane non ethanol, but I run the carbs dry before I put the engines away.
> 
> I do not expect to ever see the disaster that will drive us back to the stone age. People just will not put up with that. Recovery would be a matter of only a few months. Even if it took years the tough would still thrive at a lower level of expectations.


I hope you are right but I don’t think it will be that quick...depending on what happens. Just think of ALL the people now who can’t live without cell phones and social media. Those in NY, Chicago, all the big cities who won’t have water or groceries in 3 days after. And ALL those little millennial who need a safe space from EVERYTHING....


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

A 'Decline' is inevitable.
To sustain the US standards, each person consuming more than 500 acres of resources,
And expecting 'Public' services standards that would require a 50% tax rate to sustain,
And the population increase due to people living longer,
A decline is inevitable.

A sudden collapse isn't as likely... A (relatively) small scale disaster like a hurricane won't stop the country or economy.
A sudden collapse is usually man made, like a war.

While propane or natural gas will store for decades, liquid fuels have issues since they are VOCs and they are vulnerable to chemical degrading, separation & biological growth.
None are commonly renewable, so once consumed, no replacement until someone gets a refinery up and running.

Alcohol is renewable, but it's also labor intensive and you need acres of land for grain stocks.

Moving water is ideal, let mother nature provide the power 24/7/365.
Even on a small scale that adds up quickly because it's continuous.
The amount of moving water is limited, so it's not practical for everyone.

For those with high enough wind average speeds, that's another option.
Again, not everyone has free wind.

The sun falls on everyone, nearly every day.
The old saying, "Make hay when the sun shines." comes to mind.

If a guy ignores solar resources in 'Prepping' he's missing a LOT of potential that's 100% free and reliable as anything in nature can be.
If nothing more than communications in real time that cancelled time & labor consuming travel, or night time lighting, you ignore it at your own time/labor expenditures.
Solar panels come flexible that fit on backpacks, special forces use them to charge coms & lights, GPS, etc because they are lighter weight than a bunch of extra batteries for everything.

Everytime I see someone say they have a 'Hand' or 'Pedal' cranked generator, I have to wonder why not solar panels that don't take up your time & labor?

20+ years ago I believed what Ronald Reagan & Lush Dimbulb said about solar, I LEARNED they were wrong and solar electric does work, and with the advances of the past 20+ years it works pretty well.
Not great, not perfect, but on a small scale it beats common batteries in price,
And on a larger scale, it runs even with, or beats the grid power costs (over time).
It's also scalable, you can start small (like I did, charging automotive batteries directly) and expand as needed.

There is a learning curve, many people think electricity is 'FM' (Freaking Magic),
But you have the entire internet to educate yourself with if you don't like reading text books...
Thousands of examples on YouTube alone you can get ideas/information from.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> If a guy ignores solar resources in 'Prepping' he's missing a LOT of potential that's *100% free* and reliable as anything in nature can be.


It's "100% free" only if you spend lots of money on equipment and batteries and spend lots of time on maintenance.
Try to stick to reality.



JeepHammer said:


> But you have the entire internet to educate yourself with if you don't like reading text books...


Yes, we've all seen lots of things on the internet over the years, including those who like to try to "educate" people when they really don't know that much themselves.

Those examples are still around for everyone to see.
It's amazing what simple searches can turn up if.

Murby always said "check your sources" too.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yes, the 'Fuel' is sunlight.
Sunlight is 100% free everywhere I've ever been.
I can't speak for your location, but I'm guessing no one is regulating your sunlight and charging you for it...

Infrastructure, be it rechargable batteries for communication or lights, and the small solar panels are, or the cost of a whole home system are initial costs.
The same way a generator & house wiring are initial costs.

The difference is life span and fuel/maintiance costs.
Something to charge a hand held radio & flashlights is cheap, so are the batteries.
They have a good life span, and maintiance, other than keeping panels & connectors clean is zero.

A generator has fuel, air & oil filters, crank case oil, gaskets, etc.

Wind & water generators will consume bearings over time since they have moving parts.

Anything battery powered will eventually need batteries changed,
But lights in particular are moving to capacitors and don't need battery changes.
(See hand cranked & rechargable LED 'Battery-Less' lights)

Lead/Acid batteries, heavy, expensive, need distilled water, eat battery terminals, etc.
Lithium & LiFeP04 batteries don't have the maintenance or terminal problems, and have a MUCH longer lifespan, 400/500 charge cycles with lead/acid vs. several thousand charge cycles with Lithium based batteries.

While a common lead/acid battery returns 20%-30% of charge density, Lithium based batteries often return 85%-90%.
That's a BUNCH more useable power without damaging the battery.

And let's not forget weight, lithium comes in about 1/5 or less of lead/acid.
The weight/charge density is what makes EVs viable.
If lithiums can push a car down the road for 300 miles at 70 MPH, they can most certainly power your entire home...

--------------------

Then there is super capacitors, which in a perfect world never need replaced.
No battery replacement at all.
Storage has never been easier.

I would also point out the thread subject is on liquid, fossil fuels NOT being viable, the question was on batteries.
Staying on topic, batteries are storage devices and need 'Filled' or charged.
Common options for 'Batteries' are lead/acid, lithium, or if you have kept up, super capacitors which don't have a shelf life and don't come with an expiration date.

Charging can be a genset, but that's a fuel issue even if you have the maintenance parts/experience,
OR,
Animal power, which takes on a whole other set of 'Fuel'/Maintenance' issues,
OR,
Renewable power such as wind, water, solar PV.

Completely on topic...

-----------------

With a larger solar PV array, you entirely dismissed direct usage.
No batteries, when the sun is at 'Peak' hours, you have 110vac or 220vac directly from the inverter.
You are limited to 4-8 hours a day, but it's 4-8 hours of power to get work done, without batteries.
In an all out emergency this is refrigerator/freezer, power drills & saw, food processing & preservation equipment, and most important, the most back breaking job of all, getting water moved from one place to another, and filtered if necessary, automatically.
If you have never hauled water by hand, you have no idea what a back breaking job that is...

------------------

Another good point is it's long term.
Once in place, from pack mounted to solar PVs rack or roof top mounted,
It's a long term electrical power source.
Once in place, it produces with very little maintenance and doesn't take babysitting, refueling, doesn't make noise, and is as dependable as the sun rising.

--------------

You can keep the insults & snide remarks to yourself...
It's just wasted entirely on me and it plugged up the thread.
There are those that talk, and those that do, and once someone proves it to themselves, no amount of insults & snide remarks will change anything.

--------------

If *You* don't want to use the sun resources, that's your choice.
I'm good with what *You* do, it's your life/choices.
It doesn't mean it doesn't work, isn't competitive with grid power prices and doesn't come with 'Fuel' costs.
Brand new, professionally installed systems are amortised over 20 years, a 20 year break even point when full cost. Anything you can do to lower that cost, the system pays for itself sooner.
When the banks/mortgage companies give you credit for your solar system (should you sell the home) it's becoming wide spread and accepted...
When I started the banks wouldn't lend a penny for solar, now it's valued at about 80% of new install cost.

Solar PV is WAY more cost effective than fossil fuel, and in specific gasoline or diesel generators.
There is a reason gensets are sold as 'Backup' and not PRIMARY power supplies.
Initial cost, fuel, maintiance they aren't practical over the long haul...

I'm not going anywhere, I'm 60 and my disabilities are catching up with me,
And since I spent some extra money on redundancy I haven't had a fail in 14 years, and I don't expect one anytime soon with even more redundancy built in...
The cost savings of NOT paying rural electric bills & rural water bills over the past 11 years left cash for upgrades & redundancy... And other things too...

----------

If *YOU* are of the 'Bug Out' mindset, large scale solar isn't a practical choice.
Small scale is still very viable because of lithium batteries and the light weight of direct charge solar PV.
Large scale is too big, too bulky for anything smaller than an RV or travel trailer, and the 'Bug Out' types will all eventually wind up on foot in the event of a total collapse.
(And that's where the 'Bug Out Plan' breaks down and they start robbing people for supplies/fuel)
No total collapse, no reason to 'Bug Out', larger solar makes sense...

My 'Learning Curve' system I put together myself paid for itself in 9 years.
It's been paying me in power ever since then.
It was *Supposed* to take 20 years to break even, but with rate increases that dropped to 9 years, including battery upgrades/replacements.
(And I've posted how I reduced costs using 'Used' batteries with plenty of life still in them, there is economy in scale)


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> If lithiums can push a car down the road for 300 miles at 70 MPH, *they can most certainly power your entire home*...


But they are far from "free".
You can't just count the cost of sunlight.



JeepHammer said:


> (And I've posted how *I reduced costs *using 'Used' batteries with plenty of life still in them, there is economy in scale)


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I swear, you would argue with yourself... Or you have a pathological need to go off topic to entertain yourself...

And again, the thread was on FUEL.
Sun is FREE as FUEL.

Gasoline is FUEL.
Gasoline IS NOT free.
Gasoline doesn't arrive from the sky FOR FREE about every day.

Everything in YOUR natural biosphere is power by the sun, wind, weather, plants that feed animals, etc.
It's FREE, and for anyone far enough south they don't have perma-frost, it's EVERY DAY.

That's as far down as anyone can break it for you...

----------

Infrastructure is required to make useable power no matter what the 'Fuel' (energy source).
You can't use water for working energy without a mill,
You can't make wind work without a wind mill,
You can't make sunlight into electricity without PV panels.

You can't make fossil fuels or alcohol, or wood, or sun do ANY work without infrastructure.
Wood takes a boiler or gasifier,
Alcohol takes a boiler or combustion engine,
Water takes a paddle wheel of some sort,
Wind takes blades to convert into useable energy, etc.

Again, that's as far as anyone can break it down for you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I swear, you would argue with yourself... Or you have a pathological need to go off topic to entertain yourself...
> 
> And again, the thread was on FUEL.
> Sun is FREE as FUEL.


It's not "off topic" to say *using* solar energy isn't really "free".
It's simply the truth.



JeepHammer said:


> It's FREE, and for anyone far enough south they don't have perma-frost, it's EVERY DAY.


It's a few hours every day when it's not too cloudy or snowing.



JeepHammer said:


> Again, that's as far as anyone can *break it down* for you.


Why would you assume that's necessary?


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Hey Bearfoot ! I still generate power on a cloudy & overcast day ! Yesterday - overcast in the morning, ALL morning and cloudy but miserable humid... 415 Watts, 128 VDC and I was in FLOAT by 10 AM ! Not a lot granted but still on the + !


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not "off topic" to say *using* solar energy isn't really "free".
> It's simply the truth.


How much does the sun charge you to heat water in a bucket?
How much did the bucket cost?
How much gasoline would it have taken to heat the water to the same temp, and how much did that gasoline cost?




> It's a few hours every day when it's not too cloudy or snowing.


Just like it's a few hours before you need to refill a generator, or add wood to a boiler...
At least a boiler conserves some heated water after the fire goes out, while a generator produces nothing after it runs out of fuel.

At least with solar PV AND BATTERIES you can have power for days...



> Why would you assume that's necessary?


I'm not touching that with a ten foot troll pole...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> How much does the sun charge you to heat water in a bucket?
> How much did the bucket cost?
> How much gasoline would it have taken to heat the water to the same temp, and how much did that gasoline cost?


We were talking about producing electricity.



JeepHammer said:


> At least with solar PV AND BATTERIES you can have power for days...


Yes, if you spend enough money to have the capacity.
It's not "free".



JeepHammer said:


> I'm not touching that with a ten foot troll pole...


Resorting to name calling already?
That never works out well.
Why not just stay on topic and stick to real facts that can be verified?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Steve_S said:


> Hey Bearfoot ! I still generate power on a cloudy & overcast day ! Yesterday - overcast in the morning, ALL morning and cloudy but miserable humid... 415 Watts, 128 VDC and I was in FLOAT by 10 AM ! Not a lot granted but still on the + !


He's trolling...

You can't explain the efficiency of the newer panels to anti-solar types, it's not about facts and equipment changes, it's a religious mantra to bash RE.

I couldn't get grid power, and I'm a machinist by trade, so it was fossil fuel generators,
Both generators & fuel were expensive,
Or it was solar PV since I don't have moving water or reliable wind resources.

I'm not of the 'Bug Out' mindset, so I wasn't worried about having to move any of the infrastructure, solar made the most economic sense.
The self reliance is good, but was secondary, not being a 'Prepper' type, I'm not 'Scared'.

I've sense done a complete 180° shift in mindset,
I think local grids and solar PV on every roof is a national security issues.
With local grids, and a renewable resource that no enemy can cut off, we work no matter what the enemy does.

It's not the 'Boogy-Man' of an EMP that bothers me, although solar PV on local grids reduces that threat to nearly zero,
It's 1s and 0s, computer attacks that threaten power grids (and water/sewer systems) the most.
One 'Execute' key stroke from Russia or China, even North Korea or Iran and the power goes out for at least 6 months.

Keep in mind that locally produced solar PV power, and the control systems are virtually unhackable, or so the Department Of Defense & NSA says.
Mine isn't connected to the internet, so no chance at all of cyber hacking...

You just can't drag some people out of the 19th century no matter what you do...


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Agreed & Understood. The new BiFacial Panels are incredible in winter or if you have a white tin roof to install them over... wowzers.

We now have two small Lumber Mills here that are 100% solar powered as they got sick & tired of diesel & repair costs... they both paid everything off in 24 months just on the savings alone. One is grid connected and sending excess to grid for a cheque. I have been contacted by my Cedar Mill (where I get all my White Cedar milled) as he now wants to convert as well, so I'll be helping him do evaluations and figure out a system that will deliver it. He has another advantage he didn't realize, 400' long Barn Roof perfectly oriented E-W and geesuz you can put a heap of panels on that building AND it's all white Tin ! Hmmm LG BiFacials sound like a good fit, especially considering 425W for $315 A-Grade cheaper in skids. The barn is perfectly situated in between his house & the mill which is 500'+ on the other side of the barn. He's also cursing his new F150 Diesel, monthly shop visits since bought and still phookered, wishing he'd kept his old truck till a new electric was available…. (he didn't know EV Trucks were coming yet)… Good thing he's a very happy, go lucky kinda guy.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We were talking about producing electricity.


No, we are talking about storage of fuel alternatives.
The OP could use liquid fuel (gasoline in specific) for transportation, useable working force, or production of electricity to do work.

In specific, alternatives to stored gasoline.



> Yes, if you spend enough money to have the capacity.
> It's not "free".


Sunlight is free.
Some of the results of that FREE ENERGY are taking a bath in a sun warmed pond,
Warming yourself up on a sun warmed rock,
Eating sun powered plants to power yourself up.

EVERYTHING ELSE takes infrastructure of some sort.
A bucket or barrel to have sun warmed water where *You* want it,
A garden takes turning & preparing soil, so it's infrastructure where *You* want it,
Laying down on a sun warmed rock or sidewalk where *You* want it is infrastructure, someone had to move the rock or pour the sidewalk.

You still don't have a grip between fuel & infrastructure...



> Resorting to name calling already?


Nope, I know you do know the difference, you are just trolling to entertain yourself.



> That never works out well.
> Why not just stay on topic and stick to real facts that can be verified?


Depends on your version of verification....
About you Bearfoot,



IndyDave said:


> Why do you approach every subject with the assumption that you are the only person in the universe who isn't boneheaded stupid?
> 
> Better yet, why do you even bother turning a remark about what Irish Pixie's day is like into an argument?


Since I only use what is factual & verifiable, and I can differentiate between initial energy source, conversion infrastructure, etc. 
AND, I've actually don't it for 20 years, hands on experience,
AND I'm not claiming something that doesn't exist outside the laws of thermal Dynamics (science),
And I have no bias towards or against anything that I haven't actually tried....

I'd call that verifiable.
I'd call the other people using solar PV that have chimed in verifiable also.

I'm not the smartest person in the world, often not even the smartest guy in the room,
But I'm smart enough NOT to argue against sciences and things that are currently commonly available and working.
I'm also smart enough to figure out who is trolling and who has something to add to the conversation...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Steve_S said:


> Agreed & Understood. The new BiFacial Panels are incredible in winter or if you have a white tin roof to install them over... wowzers.
> 
> We now have two small Lumber Mills here that are 100% solar powered as they got sick & tired of diesel & repair costs... they both paid everything off in 24 months just on the savings alone. One is grid connected and sending excess to grid for a cheque. I have been contacted by my Cedar Mill (where I get all my White Cedar milled) as he now wants to convert as well, so I'll be helping him do evaluations and figure out a system that will deliver it. He has another advantage he didn't realize, 400' long Barn Roof perfectly oriented E-W and geesuz you can put a heap of panels on that building AND it's all white Tin ! Hmmm LG BiFacials sound like a good fit, especially considering 425W for $315 A-Grade cheaper in skids. The barn is perfectly situated in between his house & the mill which is 500'+ on the other side of the barn. He's also cursing his new F150 Diesel, monthly shop visits since bought and still phookered, wishing he'd kept his old truck till a new electric was available…. (he didn't know EV Trucks were coming yet)… Good thing he's a very happy, go lucky kinda guy.


I own & run a medium sized machine & welding shop, mostly small batch contract jobs.
I have to have reliable power, and like the electric grid, I don't rely on solar PV alone.

The big welder is propane powered, and it makes enough excess power to run the shop, my house, and everything on timers waiting for peak sun.
Even on propane, it's a fuel hog, but it does produce in 3 phase and some of my machines are 3 phase and can't run on phase converters.

The solar PV makes plenty of power to run the home & shop common stuff, and keep in mind that's also water from wells, no water lines out this far.

The ignorant think 12 volt cigarette lighter plug ins and dark/damp...
(ignorant is simply not having an education in a particular subject, not an insult. The insult comes when they voice a misguided, ignorant opinion, and I'm the one that's insulted)

When I say 'Earth Sheltered' the ignorant think 'Basement' or 'root cellar', not modern home exactly like all new construction, minus a few windows...
And minus a crap load of energy bills to heat/cool the place!

While the initial investment is higher, the payoff comes quicker than you can imagine a lot of times.
My 20 year 'Break Even' on solar was actually 9 years, the rural power company kept hiking rates while my costs stayed the same.
The home takes about $200 more in propane during the winter, but we also cook at home a lot more in winter, so I'm not sure how much is heating & how much is cooking... I just chalk it all up to heating, and $200 is very efficient.

I've seen, but not used the double sided PV panels, I haven't had to buy a panel in quite a while, and my panels are over yard, so I wouldn't benefit much.
I've seen the outputs people post about light roofs, over concrete on patios & carports and they look really good.

I was just watching a video on a guy that installed a car port on a shotgun house, full length, and he charges his EV and powered the house to zero 11 of 12 months with grid inter-tie.
The shotgun house are small, but DAMN! House & car, plus a full length carport for under $15,000 the Europeans have it going on!


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Ummm, see your private messages.

BI Facials are something to see the numbers from, my solar supplier generates all his company power off his roof & makes 75K a year selling excess to Hydro-One... pays enough to keep the doors open ! and he's increasing business 100% per year past 4 years. They only sell not install, could not keep up with demand.

Big phase inverters ae out there and out there on $$ too ! But I am seeing a change there, thanks largely to Europeans. There are complete HSS/ESS systems designed to Euro Spec that make me wanna scream, amazing products, excellent pricing but NOT AVAILABLE in North America ! freekin 3rd world of electrification... Starting to order things directly in as I am sick & freakin tired of being left out or behind the pack. There are even "kits" for EV charging, complete with charge controller, Inverter, Batteries and options for CCS or other charger interfaces. <5K and your good to go and no more gasoline IF you have an EV. Now that VW is going deep into EV and Ford bought into their MEB platform to stay relevant along with others jumping in... The time is here. Almost.... Still pondering an https://electrameccanica.com/solo/ for personal scoot about but that's a long ponderance for me. Now if I can convert my pickup for a respectable price... (Hard to do in Canada).


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I did see your PM, just haven't had time to look into it, so no comment for now since I don't know enough to discuss it.
I can see you are WAY past me on a lot of stuff, I'm more of a hands on guy, everything I know I did the hard way...

-------

For the US/North America, it's 'Conservatives' that are the problem.
Big petroleum/gas gets about $3 Billion in subsidies & tax exemptions, and spends about $30 million a year in disinformation, misinformation, propaganda & outright lies.

Why the most profitable business ever on the planet needs subsidies, grants & tax breaks opposes common sense, but big oil would have to compete with every other power sources if gasoline, diesel & natural gas had to compete at fair market rates.
Of course they want to 'Conserve' all that profit! If we do what's in our best interest, they loose a crap load of money!

Europeans have to pay full market value, so they aren't 'Conservative', many are producing anywhere between 75% to over 100% of domestic needs with wind & solar PV.
The big energy companies in Europe saw the writing on the wall, and many invested in renewables...
Keep in mind a LOT of the energy Europe uses comes from Russia, and when Russia holds the switch, you have to face facts.

Everytime one of the 'Clean Coal' or 'Clean Gas' propaganda commerical comes on or I see a billboard I want to scream at it...
No such thing as 'Clean' fossil fuels, they are all carbon based, and there will be carbon releases no matter what.

When I see idiots saying they will bring coal back...
Coal is dying a slow death of natural causes, natural gas pipelines run 24/7/365 with MUCH less expense than digging coal, transporting coal, removing fly ash, etc.

Since I don't have coal reserves, or natural gas reserves, or the mining/drilling equipment to access either, I went solar PV.
(Talk about infrastructure start up expense, try mining or deep rock drilling!)

The solar PV mount posts were an issue for me,
I went earth sheltered on everything but a small shelter house & the shop, both have solar panels.
SHORT steel posts were cheap enough, but I wanted posts tall enough to mow under and to run livestock under.
So it was treated wooden posts that will eventually have to be replaced, but they have lasted MUCH longer than expected.
I also mounted panels on an old house trailer frame (free) and using an old big truck axle (free), the wheel bearings allow me to track the sun, that's 30% more efficiency right there, 30% less panels required for the same production.

Since the infrastructure cost some welding rods, some cement to set the axle/post on end, that infrastructure cost went WAY down, virtually free for 30% more production.
And it's nothing anyone else can't do, it's not like there is a shortage of house trailer frames or scrap big truck axles...
Even if you have to buy, it's literally scrap weight.

MANY years ago, I converted a Chevy S-10 to electric/batteries.
I found a 'Load Bearer' (industrial golf cart) and transfer running gear over to the S-10.
Didn't go far with direct drive DC motor on lead/acid batteries, but it saved a LOT of fuel cost.
It was GREAT for hauling around junk, moving construction supplies, and powering job sites.

My golf cart does that job now, the frame just rusted to nothing from Indiana salted highways, and it wasn't in good shape when I got it.
No one drives golf carts on salted winter roads, so it's stayed alive much longer.
About the same weight/range when I'm pulling a wagon with supplies, much longer range when it's not loaded down, but not as fast.
On county roads, that doesn't matter either, the standing speed limit is 35 mph, and it will do about that...

It's just TOO easy to plug it in to 'Fill Up' off the solar panels or battery bank if necessary.
While I don't have a long range EV, it's on my radar, the price point is getting there.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> No, we are talking about storage of fuel alternatives.


That was the original post.
*Your* talk about "solar" has largely been about producing electricity.



JeepHammer said:


> You just can't drag some people out of the 19th century no matter what you do...


You can't pretend it's really "free" either.



JeepHammer said:


> Depends on your version of verification....
> About you Bearfoot,





> IndyDave said: ↑
> Why do you approach every subject with the assumption that you are the only person in the universe who isn't boneheaded stupid?
> 
> Better yet, why do you even bother turning a remark about what Irish Pixie's day is like into an argument?


LOL
That's not "verifiable fact".
It's highly biased opinion from another who would rather talk about me than stick to real facts.



JeepHammer said:


> I'm also smart enough to figure out who is trolling and who has something to add to the conversation...


Most everyone is smart enough.
The internet has lots of evidence for anyone who does a search.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Steve_S said:


> Hey Bearfoot ! I still generate power on a cloudy & overcast day ! Yesterday - overcast in the morning, ALL morning and cloudy but miserable humid... 415 Watts, 128 VDC and I was in FLOAT by 10 AM ! *Not a lot* granted but still on the + !


None of it was "free".


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> None of it was "free".


Yes & No.
1) The sun is Free, it shines and the world continues to support life.
2) NO, the equipment did cost money BUT it's a one time, non recurring cost. Unlike a monthly power bill for your entire life.

Return on investment is simple, As soon as you stop paying Power Co because you make enough for yourself, every Kilowatt you make is money not spent, staying in your pocket. If you redirect your $250 a month from Power Co back to what you paid for your system, it pays back fast. Using $250 as an example. If you've been on "the grid" for 10 years (limited money spent) then buying your Power Generation up front makes sense as power rates always climb, so your lowering the amortisated cost, Pre Paying for your own power making. Here's the catch, once it is all paid off, it still makes power and THAT IS FREE ! OR PROFIT if you want to look at it that way (ie selling back to grid). It also adds value to the home and believe it or not, a lot of Realtors are fielding questions from people looking with solar or solar potential.

Below is an extract from a Q&A that gives an idea of average power consumption a person uses. Based on that & it's 2013 price calculation of $61,875.00. Now of course prices go up every year right, so it would certainly end up being more $ in reality, and this is based on 27 kWh per day.


> *How much energy does the average person use in a lifetime?*
> 
> Written by: Mark Marmer
> Posted on: February 28, 2013
> ...


article ref: https://signatureelectric.ca/blog/how-much-energy-does-the-average-person-use-in-a-lifetime/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Steve_S said:


> Yes & No.
> 1) The sun is Free, it shines and the world continues to support life.
> 2) NO, the equipment did cost money BUT it's *a one time, non recurring cost*. Unlike a monthly power bill for your entire life.


That's not really true either.

Batteries don't last forever, and all the other equipment is subject to fail.
The end result remains it takes thousands of dollars worth of specialized equipment to produce reasonable amounts of electricity. 

If it was truly all that reliable and inexpensive, it would see much more use.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If it was truly all that reliable and inexpensive, it would see much more use.


DUDE ! Everywhere I drive, I see farmers have panels on barns, on tracking racks, along fence lines. Homes with solar on the roof. Many are Grid Tied only but more & more and going with UPS mode as power failures are increasing & lengthening. 
If the Best you can do is what you posted... oivey.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> DUDE ! Everywhere I drive, I see farmers have panels on barns, on tracking racks, along fence lines. Homes with solar on the roof. Many are Grid Tied only but more & more and going with UPS mode as power failures are increasing & lengthening.


That really doesn't change anything I've said.
Nothing you saw was free.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Well, it's pointless when he can't or won't differentiate between energy source (fuel), infrastructure and making useable power...

Troll ignore in 3...2...1...

There! 
The 'Troll Be Gone' button works!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Steve_S said:


> DUDE ! Everywhere I drive, I see farmers have panels on barns, on tracking racks, along fence lines. Homes with solar on the roof. Many are Grid Tied only but more & more and going with UPS mode as power failures are increasing & lengthening.
> If the Best you can do is what you posted... oivey.


Poultry & hog houses are getting solar panels around here.
Farmers know how to work the land, and that real-estate on the roof might as well be paying them.
I'm sure some wish they had oriented the roof differently....

Up north, it's big wind in the fields, just plant around them and let the fields pay them twice. 
Brooding houses and even grain bins are sprouting solar panels, the sunny side of a grain bin is an easy place to put solar panels.

I noticed a couple big pole barn style machine sheds last year were going in at a weird angle to the fence line, 
And the lean-to style roof was a strange angle,
Then the solar panels went on those big roofs and I figured it out...


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

At present there is no practicable substitute for fossil fuels. All the hype, all the furore oveer wind and solar, tidal generators, etc are just that---They can be made to work, but at great expense and teremendous investment. Once done the power they generate would be much more expensive that we are now paying. 

If we are talking TEOTHWOAWKI, all bets are off. We may or may not have the tools and materiels to use solar or wind. If we have, it may well be more pracrtical and quicker to rebuild our fossil fuel grid.

Add to all that the fact that scientists are working hard now to develop other sources of energy, and nucleas is feasible and in use in some places.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

While I disagree with Oxankle, 
He's entitled to his opinion.

The technology had made it possible to get off a centralized production facility, 
In specific, being able to synchronize with the grid so you can put power back into the grid from anywhere on the grid.

While the big, centralized power plants cost billions to construct,
And since the power grid is still going to loose about 80% of production in conversions (transformers, switching) and line losses, it really isn't efficient at all.

The Edwardsport, IN. power plant that was supposed to cost $3 Billion is now over $10 Billion and asking for another $3 Billion from taxpayers & rate hikes.
The taxpayer has funded about $7 billion of this 'Clean Coal' fiasco...

Like I said before, I had a 20 year payoff (break even point) on my off grid solar, 
With rate hikes it paid off in 9 years, and since I bought parts & assembled myself, no tax credits, every dollar out of my pocket.
I simply tracked the production/usage and compared it to the current electric rates to determine payback point.

Now, keep in mind, that means 11 years with 'Free' power, the system is 'Paying' me!
The 'Profits' are mine...
I've spent some on 'Spare Parts' and redundancy, no power outages in 15-16 years while neighbors have gone days & weeks without power.

With changes to Lithium batteries & super capacitors, the maintiance is checking things over once a month or so, a half hour inspection to check for corrosion, and redundant system failures.
A half hour a month is what I 'Pay' to save 100% of the electric bill.

What the solar community can't get across to the rest is, with the right batteries/capacitors, this is a 'Solid State' system, it works for years and years without failures.
In the last 5-6 years the only outright 'Fails' I've had was breakers/lightening isolators from a lightening strikes.
Since the system was built to handle a direct lightening strikes, it cost about $100,
And the redundant system kicked in so no power failure in the home.

*IF* lightening hits the grid line, YOU are out of power until it's fixed.
*IF* lightening hits your home, you will have thousands of dollars in damage, or the entire house will burn down.
It cost me one breaker and two lightening protectors... (Homes *Should* have lightening protectors, but code doesn't require they be installed like with solar systems)

The only thing liquid fossil fuels have going for them is refuel time.
It's quicker to dump gasoline into a generator or vehicle tank than to recharge batteries.
Since big oil/big auto makers couldn't suppress the battery technology outside the US, those technologies (very old technologies that were supressed) are making it to market, and it's changing the world quickly.
Nickel metal hydride, and iron phosphate batteries were used by Thomas Edison in the late 1800s/early 1900s and that's the basis for modern EV/RE batteries. Like I said, supressed for 100 years, and that's not tin foil hat theory, it's stone cold fact...










https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

----------------

The most efficient panel maker used US made discoveries,
Developed the technology in the US,
Put the technology into production in the US,
Used US labor, good paying jobs with benefits,

And when the panels worked & came to market, big energy freaked out, got congress to cut loan guarantees, and the company collapsed before it could get into full production to get prices down...
AND THEN!
China swooped in, bought up the entire plant, patents, research and move it all to China.
You can now buy a lesser version of that panel from China, since they can't quite get the technology to work for them...

*IF* you want to believe the propaganda produced by big energy, that's your choice.
If you are uncomfortable with wiring, that's OK too, it's not everyone's strong suit.
Just don't think it doesn't work or isn't cost effective, because it is and I'm proof.
Steve S. And others are also proof.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

*Isn't it interesting how some folks go on about things without realizing that they are making statements which are Anti-Democratic, Anti-Freedom and pressing people to be either subservient to corporations & entities, or to be financially beholden to "Companies" rather than being independent from them.*

*We LIVE IN A FREE SOCIETY ! * _Supposedly,_ and We have Freedom of Choice, We can Elect our Politico's, We can disagree with them and tell them so (without going to prison), we can choose to Grow a Garden and harvest that which we grow to eat ! We can choose to buy a Car or a Truck, we can decide to live in a House, on a Farm or in an Apartment. *Being FREE IS GREAT ! Having Choices & Options is Wonderful ! (Many don't have this !! ) *

Why would I want to Pay for Electrical Power that I can make myself ? to make a company wealthy ? don't think so.
Why would I want to BUY my Vegetables in a grocery store run by a faceless corporate (with foreign owners) when I can grow my own ? The Government (NO ONE) can tell me that I cannot Plant a Garden ! or eat what I grow !
If I can generate enough power to drive an Electric Car, than why not ? IT's MY CHOICE & I AM FREE TO MAKE THAT CHOICE.
If I want to BUY an Electric Car, again My Choice in a Free World 

What are HomeSteaders ? 
Anything from a small Cabineer with an acre and a tiny garden to a large farm who is running independently or even folks who are going for Pure Subsistence... it's quite a MIX of folks doing their own thing... and it is the Freedom & Independence that many are looking for and wanting. Many just want to be able to depend on themselves and be as self-reliant as possible.

ANYONE who argues AGAINST your Personal Freedoms your ability to make Choices for Yourself, that tell you how to Think or those who try to supress your rights to Choose & Decide things for yourself, is NOT a friend, they are NOT interested in your rights & freedoms, they have other agenda's. 

Anyone attempting to suppress your rights & freedoms using unqualified & parroted statements, should be avoided at ALL COSTS... They want you to remain hooked on buying Gas & Diesel, Don't make your own power, use the Big Power Co on keep paying for life. Don't plant a Garden, buy your food from a corporate store shoving corporate farm food (GMO's and more) onto your table with god knows what chemistry on it. 

The small average small household (27 kWh per day) uses up close to $70,000 of power in one lifetime. (+/- depending where you are).


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'm not going to tell you how to live,
And I'm going to ignore anything you have to say about, "What YOU should do..." (Meaning me)
If you want to compete in the 'Consumer Economy', that's entirely your choice.

--------------

That $70,000 estimate might be short,
I know people paying $600 a month in summer and over $1,000 in winter.

---------------

Im not a science denier, not that I take everything published as fact, or even science.
(See 'Flat Earth', climate change deniers, etc.)

"The times they are a-changin'..."

I'm also not a 'Prepper' like I see on YouTube and on web sites.
I saw change coming, all the scientific models saw it coming, I'm 60 and I've seen it directly, so at 37-38 I didn't something about it instead of being baffled and scared.

I live in 'Tornado Alley' so by construction needed to be tornado proof.
Fire & bugs are a real threat to construction, so I took that into account.
I couldn't afford grid power or water, so I arranged my own.
I had a job where I saw what passes for 'Food', so I grow most of my own (still addicted to fast food, just not as much anymore).

Earth sheltered, concrete construction, the insulation factor is off the charts, tornado proof, bug proof, and when you watch what you put inside & have sprinklers, almost fire proof.
Enough earth the temperature is regulated, so heat & cooling energy need is WAY low and I'll never freeze (neither will the pipes!).

Solar is the primary power source, so after initial install costs, very little maintiance or operations cost

Drilled water wells, and with power I'm never out of clean water.

The septic system will have to be cleaned eventually, but 16 years and no issues at all.

The gardens make cash money every year, from annual decoratives to food produce.
Since I want to use the gardens for decades, I go as natural/organic as possible.
I don't want the soil to have something in it they find out causes cancer in a couple of years like so many farm chemicals have over the decades I've been alive...
And it's mostly waste products I have to deal with anyway, I just compost and reuse my labor as fertilizer.

I started with a Jeep, a tent & my military field pack, and land with 'Junk' on it.
The first thing I did was clear land and start a compost pile, use 'Junk' an a '73 Jeep to plow, harrow and plant gardens.
My first 'Construction' was a 'Privvy'/Solar Shower.
Short days at work when days are long, weekends, holidays, 'vacations', all on the land.

I'm not anti-technology when I home can or jar, it's just clean, whole food exactly the way *I* like it.
When a winch, inverter, generator, whatever helps me get something done faster/easier in relation to cost, I'm all for it!

Between the consulting business, the gun smith business, the machine & welding business, the garden produce & 'Primitive Crafts' my wife does it all pays for itself and makes a reasonable profit.

For me, the most important part is we are our own bosses.
No one tells us what to do or how/when to do it.
It takes work, make no mistake. We produce something, a real economy, not the false 'Consumer' economy that's entirely subject to the wants & wims of the general consumer herd.

I guess we are 'Prepared', but for old age and gradual decline I health & abilities, which happens to everyone if you are lucky to live long enough...
I have a tractor now, so no plowing with a Jeep! 

The FACT solar has beat utility grid power in cost, it beat generator & fuel, and it's SILL producing power & saving money is good for me, but anyone can do it, I'm not special, just not misinformed or ignorant of the subject anymore.

I can't count on anything in politics, religion, sports, the weather,
But I can count on solar working tomorrow and for the foreseeable future (the 10 minutes to 20 years I'm likely to be alive).
With water wells, clean water is secure is secure in the foreseeable future.
With the gardens & home preservation (and the stockpile we accumulated by accident) the food supply is secure in my foreseeable future.
With power, and people needing machine work & welding my income is secure in the foreseeable future.

I didn't do any of it overnight, it was a long, hard row to hoe, but when I forgot about TV, the internet, video games, etc and kept busy, it all came along reasonably well... (So far...)


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Well, it's pointless when he can't or won't differentiate between energy source (fuel), infrastructure and making useable power...
> 
> Troll ignore in 3...2...1...
> 
> ...


I've heard that lie before.
None of your name calling changes anything I said though.

You're just being you, and I've seen you in action on many sites over many years.
Patterns never change.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I *Think* it might be mindset.
People get used to dumping liquid fuel I to engines and getting something out.

Say, 5 gallon of gas as fuel.
Then you have to buy a generator, vehicle or whatever.

Think of a battery the size of the gas can,
The solar panels (or wind/water) are the 'Pump' that refills the 'Can' (stored energy) over and over again.

You can use that battery (Can) over and over, and use the 'Can' to directly power your tools, vehicle, whatever.

The cost of solar panels are about the same cost as a good generator (not the little lawn mower motor type) so that's a wash in costs.

The battery (Can) will refill several hundred times, to several thousand times, which makes it more cost effective than buying liquid fuel.

When you CAN'T fill the can with liquid fuel (shortages) the solar keeps filling your battery.

When the battery fails, you CAN still get work out of the solar panels, it's just not portable or stored anymore.
ANY power is work done, so it's still an asset when the generator without fuel is a yard ornament...

The solar panels are solid state, no moving parts, so they RARELY fail.

The new batteries live thousands of FULL charge cycles so they outlive lead/acid batteries by a hundred times or more (100x increase in life, up to 15 years).
These batteries are being made in surplus, so some scrounging around, and you can find them for lead/acid battery price or less a lot of times.

Then you consider an inverter.
An inverter let's you use the stored or direct production from solar panels with regular 110vac/220vac appliances you already know.
It's regular home/house current, you won't notice a change in the home, it works just like grid power with zero changes.

Since you have to make what you use, you would be better off with energy efficiency,
A 3 watt LED bulb, or 17 watt CF bulb instead of 60-70 watt bulbs.
The same is true with home appliances to reduce your grid electric bill, so it's no big deal...

Some new, and VERY exciting battery technologies are coming... Stay tuned for technology advances.
Lead/acid batteries run right with, or slightly beat grid power price returns.
Metal batteries WAY beat grid power price because of the charge density, the amount of charge they can take & return, AND the life span of these batteries.

It's cost effective for those that can understand basic math.
It's energy independence for those wanting to be independent.
It's money in your pocket for those not wanting to give excessive money away to big energy.

Some won't be able to do the 'Cognitive Recalibration', and there isn't much you can do for them, but it's entirely their choice, so it's none of my business, just a fact of life.


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