# Questions about LGD



## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

We have these two Great Pyrenees and I've got some problems I think. 

They are still puppies, 4-5 months old. They are so rambunctious, jumping and so eager to play and wanting attention. We recently started leaving them with the goats now that they are bigger and the goats don't torment them like before. 

The issue is with when I milk the cow. They lie besid me while I milk and growl at each other. Thursday it got so bad one attacked the other and I was terrified to watch. All I could think was -what if one of them had my baby like that? I was screaming and stomping at them and didn't have any way to break them up - and was in the middle of milking my cow! 

They are litter mates, one boy, one girl. I do not know what to do. They growl at each other when I feed them and sadly, growled and snapped at SO the other day, not realizing it was SO reaching to move the bowl. 

I can't have dangerous dogs around here having two little girls, age 5 and 2. So far all the dogs have done is knock them over with slobbery kisses and a desire to play, but still. It could be because I don't really trust dogs in general-or there could be an issue I don't know how to fix. They do protect though. At least I think that's what they do when they sit facing the woods and bark. They do not seem to get along with each other-which is the problem. 

Do I get rid of one and find another? Get rid of them both and start fresh? With the wild dogs and coyotes out here I can't go without a LGD.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Let then sort it out.
Everytime you try to stop them each dog thinks you are helping them against the other dog. As long as you continue to help they will continue to fight.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

PrettyPaisley said:


> They growl at each other when I feed them and sadly, growled and snapped at SO the other day, not realizing it was SO reaching to move the bowl.


Food aggression is very common in LGDs. Don't feed them together, and don't let them in the barn when you're milking.



> I can't have dangerous dogs around here having two little girls, age 5 and 2. So far all the dogs have done is knock them over with slobbery kisses and a desire to play, but still. It could be because I don't really trust dogs in general-or there could be an issue I don't know how to fix.


Two littermates squabbling over food does NOT mean "dangerous dogs". It is normal. Feed them separately and you probably won't see any more squabbling.

The issue is that you are afraid of dogs. The dogs themselves sound normal. I suggest you get them spayed and neutered if the aren't already (otherwise you're going to have an inbred litter of pups soon) and counsel with a dog trainer so you can learn about behavior, and how to get over your fear, so you can be an effective leader.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I am afraid of them and I do NOT like dogs as a general rule. Never have. I don't trust them and am 100% convinced any dog could turn at any time. No rules about breeds or situation-they could all snap...just like women. HA!  

But what about them fighting while I am milking? What's up with that? Maybe I shouldn't have given them eggs with broken shells and milk too sour for us...I thought I was feeding them properly the way I feed my family and cutting back on the crap dog food. 

Our barn is ready as of yesterday. I milk in it tomorrow for the first time. Guess that will fix the issue of me being around them with the cow at milk time.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Milk was their first food. The same fighting that happens at mealtime is happening at milking because food is involved, even if they don't get any. As Wolf Flower wrote, keep them away when milking. They are old enough to learn sit. They are old enough to start stopping and sitting at doors and wait for you to tell them "out" or "in". Putting some training on them will help.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

If you are scared of them, why did you get them and two at that? 
They do know if you are scared and you need to get over that before they never listen to you. They are only going to get bigger and more stubborn if you allow them to get away with things due to fear. 

I do not like having littermates, sometimes it works out and other times it is a fiasco. If they are not midning you now it is going to turn into a fiasco, not toward your daughters but toward each other or even the goats. 

Food agressiong towards each other is one thing, my older boy has it and the younger one is smart enough to avoid him. They are fed separatly, they are now allowed to have food agression towards me and they do not, at any time I can and do take away their food to remind them of that. 

Also with having littermates you have to get the male neutered before he reaches sexual maturity by 8 months old. She may come into heat at 6 months old and hopefully he will not be old enough to breed her, or you will have to make sure you keep them separate starting around 6 months of age. 

Littermates may bond with each other more then the livestock, get into trouble like taking off, digging in trash more so then a single dog. Or they may totally hate each other and fight constantly, or they may get along just fine, there are too many variables with littermates. 

Honestly since you are scared of them and having problems you may want to re-home one and train the other well. Keep them away during milking time, there is no reason for them to be there especially if they are fighting. Feed them separatly whether you are keeping one of both, stop those issues now.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

If you don't even like dogs and, in addition, are afraid of them, your chances of having a good relationship is pretty close to zero IMHO. 

Squabbling is about establishing rank, and resource guarding is related, but can be it's own issue. Neither of these indicate inherent "viscousness," which generally has more to do with poor socialization and upbringing than anything else. At 5 months old, absent serious handling errors, I cant imagine this being a real issue. However LGDs are assertive and protective - that's their whole purpose. 

They're going to bark and go after stuff. You are going to have two dogs that are soon going to be 100lb puppies - not even close to mature - and they are going to know you are both afraid of them and don't like them. Just like any child - they will take advantage of your apprehension to assert themselves over you.

I highly recommend that you take the time to think about what you want, need, and what's best for both you and your dogs. LGDs take a serious commitment regarding handling, and that starts with understanding how to establish and maintain a positive relationship. This is a good place to start that research by reading as many of the past threads that you can. 

Good luck!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

PrettyPaisley said:


> I am afraid of them and I do NOT like dogs as a general rule. Never have. I don't trust them and am 100% convinced any dog could turn at any time.


I fear this may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why do you have two giant size dogs that you are afraid of? If they are strictly to be guarding your stock, they should be out with the stock and not in the milking barn.

Dogs can sense when people are afraid of them, and will take every opportunity to take advantage of that fact. They will not respect you and may even challenge you. I highly suggest you consult with a trainer so you can understand dog behavior, learn how to overcome your fear, and how to get some obedience training on these dogs, otherwise they will walk all over you if they feel like it. You don't have to love them, but you can't be afraid of them.



> Maybe I shouldn't have given them eggs with broken shells and milk too sour for us...I thought I was feeding them properly the way I feed my family and cutting back on the crap dog food.


You are feeding them fine. Just separate the dogs when feeding. Best if they can't even see each other. The fighting in the milk barn is because there is milk there, which is food, and they want some. Dogs fight over things they want. Just don't let them in the milk barn.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

What i see here is an oppurtunity for YOU to grow. You must take the role of alpha, you have to get over your fear; you dont have to like them but do not back down one iota. 
Your goats need them.
They can be pretty rough with each other.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

Pretty much everything that has been stated above. I would recommend that you re-home one of them or get the male neutered. Re-homing should not be a problem. Then when the remaining dog has matured more, say a couple of years old, get a new puppy. One GP can keep control of a lot coyotes. Bears or Mt. lion is different, but you probably don't have too many of those. JMHO


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

LGDs are tools that you are expecting to use their teeth (at a last resort) to defend their herd. They are meant to be sharp, and squabble amongst themselves somewhat, and yeah they're a little "dangerous" around people not conditioned to behave properly with working dogs. You need to do as Wolf Flower says but remember you have guard dogs, not pets, keep your children under control and their encounters well supervised. I'm pretty sure you can stop a dog from doing anything but keep in mind your goal is to have those dogs on point facing coyotes and that needs a degree of sharpness. Your behaviour around that objective is just as important as the dogs behaviour around you and other people. Your problem is more you (and your family) interacting with working dogs and your expectations. Think of them like automatic running power tools. You wouldn't let your kids near a running chainsaw. They will sort themselves (even if it means a vet bill) and it may not be pretty but siblings do make good working companions. As said you do need to get yourself as the in charge member here. Cute puppies grow up to be REAL dogs. Changing dogs won't help that much.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I did not know that it was normal for dogs to squabble with each other. And to clarify, I am not scare of these dogs in particular, until they being to act so foolishly. When we are all just out in the pasture doing our thing I tolerate them. I pet them, feed them, rumble with them...but when they start growling I do not like it. At all. And I will not tolerate it in my presence. 

That said, I have no clue how to train them to be on guard. I thought that was just what they did-that they were born with that instinct. Heck, I wanted donkeys but everybody said that wasn't a good idea with goats.

Anyhow, thanks for the input. I will keep my children under control (which I am pretty certain I do regardless)-but I refuse to keep them away from my goats and out of the pen with the animals. I have this farm and these animals so my children will grow up thinking this is normal. While I will continue to stay vigilant with keeping my 2 year old from chasing the cow and climbing the steps to the loft in the barn, I will NOT have aggressive animals of any breed. And if it is deemed I am incapable or unqualified or just too darn scared of this aggressiveness, I will sleep with the goats to keep them safe. Regardless of my obvious-to-everyone-but-me shortcomings, I will figure this out and make it work. I didn't watch You Tube videos to learn to milk a goat and kill a chicken and tail a cow raised at a dairy to be taken down by a couple of maniac dogs. 

Thankyouverymuch.


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## nostawmama (Dec 29, 2011)

PrettyPaisley said:


> ...but when they start growling I do not like it. At all. And I will not tolerate it in my presence.


If you are that adamant about dogs growling then dogs might not have been the best choice for you. Dogs will growl and doing anything to discourage this might nullify their purpose- ie guarding livestock. However, I think that if you feel like this is the only option for protecting your goats then you can make it work. As previously mentioned, training for the dogs, conditioning for yourself, and maybe re-homing one dog are all viable options if you are up to it and you would know what you are capable of better than anyone here!


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

I have a few suggestions that may help and may save a great deal of pain and heartache. (not to mention stitches) 
*THINK LIKE A DOG*
1st you need to be the Alpha in your pack. Anytime a dog starts acting up unprovoked in the presence of the alpha it is a sign disrespect to your leadership. I cut that off with a thumb jab to the flank _(soft spot just in front of rear leg)_ of the aggressor. _(in the wild such actions may jeopardize the whole pack and are dealt with instantly)_
*THINK LIKE A DOG*
2ND Food/feed dish issues, have the kids and your SO spit in the dogs food everyday and stir it in before you feed. Then have these people rotate at feed time, commanding the dog to sit and wait for their food _(with you right there to supervise of course)_ do not allow them to eat until the command is given, have a little patience and dont get frustrated, if the dog is totally uncooperative, put the food up and try again in an hour. I have never had a dog go more than 3 days before they come around. _(Dont go getting all boohooy people the dog is making the choices here, when they act as a proper pack member they will eat)_
*THINK LIKE A DOG* Food is a hard wired pack survival thing and the dog will sacrifice themselves to insure the survival of the pack!
These are lessons worth learning for a safe fuctional pack for your kids with any canine.
Why spit???
A dogs olfactory sense is up to 200,000 times greater than mans, they can smell a cancerous tumor cell inside of the human body.
*In nature higher ranking pack members eat first, they leave their scent through saliva on the food that the rest of the pack eats.* 
They take that scent and lock it down into their memory, It is hard wired into their brains "pack structure"
3RD
*As for the dogs fighting, I have to go with Pancho.*
Unless a dog is temperamentally unstable _(which should be culled)_opposite sex dogs, when they fight and pin each other. One dog submits the other, lets them up, you dont need to intervene they are not going to kill each other, they are not game bred dogs. 
4TH
If you feel that you have to break up a fight,* dont panic, never stick your hands in the mix.* Keep a rope or belting and hang it on a hook _(I have 1 in my yard)_ get a loop around the flank of the losing dog and tie the rope off to something solid. Now get around behind the winning dog and grab the rear legs and lift off of the ground, and move back putting _a little tension_ on dog. When they try to renew their bite/grip on the other dog, gravity & tension will separate them. (for APBT & ABD you may need break stick, for most others no, so I wont go into that)
You grab the losing dog, because if you grab the winner, often the losing dog sees that as an opportunity to get the upper hand.
Hope this helps.
Dont be afraid and dont be foolish!
PS if your willing to sleep with the goats to defend them, you will have more than enough resolve to train dogs to be respectable working members of your homestead!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

LGDs are getting real popular these days. People are getting them for protecting their livestock when there isn't really a reason or anything to protect them from.
This is becomming a problem with the dogs who are supposed to protect livestock being more dangerous than what they are protecting against.
For small acerages it is cheaper and better to provide fencing that will keep out most predators. No vet bills and not much money needed for upkeep after the initial investment.
Fences do not sleep, run off, or attack what they are supposed to protect.

Growling is a way of communicatioin between dogs. It doesn't always mean they are about to attack or mad at what they are growling at.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

PrettyPaisley said:


> That said, I have no clue how to train them to be on guard. I thought that was just what they did-that they were born with that instinct.


You don't have to train them to guard. You DO have to train them to obey you. Which means, no fighting in your presence. Waiting patiently for food. Waiting at gates. Sit and lie down on command. Manners.



> I will NOT have aggressive animals of any breed. And if it is deemed I am incapable or unqualified or just too darn scared of this aggressiveness, I will sleep with the goats to keep them safe.


Did no one tell you that guard dogs NEED to be aggressive, in order to keep predators away? What is the point of having guardians if you don't ever want them to be aggressive? If you can't handle the thought of your dogs barking, growling, chasing off, or fighting a coyote, raccoon, stray dog, or other varmint, why on Earth do you have dogs that are bred to do exactly that?

Just because they are aggressive toward predators does not mean they will be aggressive toward the flock and the family. LGD breeds are generally very gentle and tolerant of children, people that they know, and any animals on the property that they are supposed to guard. LGDs do tend to squabble with each other over resources, just as sibling children do. Since they are not a same-sex pair, they probably will not do severe damage to each other, but if you simply can't handle the idea that arguments between them will crop up, you should re-home one of them.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Our boys have very different temperments. They fight each other but it's all in good old fashion dog fun; exceedingly rough but never to the point of blood. 
Dep is as aggressive toward outsiders as he is gentle with a laboring doe & kids. Which means stay away from HIS goats. 
He has accepted our grson as family, even though he isnt here on a regular basis.
If you are getting to the point of sleeping out with the goats do you have really good hearing? Will you bark at an intruder? Will you be ready with lethal force?
All Im saying is those dogs will do that job if you are willing to work through current issues.
They are not people pleasers. I like what Rock said about "Think like a dog."


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## dizplanner (Jan 1, 2012)

Shannon---I think people have some really great information on here, but I wrote in about my 2 new LGD's (my younger pup has SO much more energy than the other pup) and readers started telling me to rehome her and even that they would be willing to adopt her. LOL All I was asking for was some advice! I think everyone is just well meaning, but maybe overboard at times. Anyhow, my pup is almost a year old and still very, very hyper. I probably wouldn't know any difference except that the older pup (6 months older) is very calm, gentle, great with the chickens and goats. The younger one I can't trust with any livestock and even my kids don't want the 80 pounds of her knocking them over. She is just overly loving and excited. I did teach her to sit right at 8 weeks old and she sits for her food and I am very pleased with their behavior around food together. They ARE same-sex females which I"m told is not the best, but we adopted the older one and it's just going to be that way. However, when I give them bones they aren't so willing to share and the older one will usually end up guarding both bones. The younger pup just accepts it. They do occasionally have a spat and some are quite fierce. Usually it has to do with one of our other dogs (indoor ones) approaching their fence. They start going at it like they are arguing over which one is going to take out the indoor dog. I am trying to "think like a dog" and figure out why they do that. My poor 80 year old neighbor came over the other day and the kids and I were out by the barn with the pups and our indoor dog followed her over to the gate. I tried to tell her to back up so the dog would follow her back to the house but she didn't understand. They started to bark and then took it out on each other. There was blood on one of their fur but we figured out later it must have been from their gums---maybe even a loose baby tooth because there were NO cuts or scrapes. Just blood that had rubbed on the other's fur. But it sure looked scary. They were back to playing and bring friends within a few minutes. I do love our pups but I am very respectful of the job that they will eventually do. We have so many fox that have taken out all of our free-range chickens and got these pups to help control that. I hope it works out for you. I try to just think ahead of the dogs and what might "set them off".


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I love dogs, I have gentle dogs, but I wouldn't leave them unsupervised with a two year old for a minute. The Great Dane came from a household with kids, and loves kids, but can easily knock one down my mistake if I'm not there to keep things under control. The Greyhound is not used to children, and although very mild mannered and tolerant, when he gets fed up with a puppy he will be assertive with his teeth, and I think that could easily happen with a child playing to aggressively with him. (No fighting, just one nip to let the puppy know she crossed the line.) With him, I only let children pet the back side, and leave him an opening to escape.

There are two ways to handle the dogs. If caring for the herd is top priority, have as little interaction as possible, put in just enough training for necessary vetting, and keep the kids away. He will bond best with the flock that way. If the kids interacting with all farm animals is top priority, then he needs to be well trained and recognize you as pack leader. Teach the "Leave It" command first with dropped bits of food, and then when it's well ingrained, bring in the kids. Make it clear that these are your pups, and holy hell will come down on them if the "Leave It" command is ignored around the children. The more obedience work the dog does, the more stable and controllable he will be around children, but supervision is still wise.


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## lexa (Mar 30, 2012)

I think you need to rehome your dogs to a farm where owners are knowlegeble about LGDs and find a donkey who has been with goats.
It would be better if you do it ASAP, because your puppies are coming to age where they will be testing their place in the pack and unless you are confident around them and know what you are doing, it might not go well and yes, your visitors, you, your kids and SO may end up being hurt. 
There is nothing wrong with your dogs, they do exactly what they been bred to do. Any other LGD dog would behave in the same manner. If you re-home them now, in confident hands they will turn into nice behaving adults. If you wait until someone gets hurt there might be nothing that enyone could do for them except put them down. It would not be fair for the dogs.
As far as letting dogs sort things out. It is normal, but I do not believe that it should be practiced unless you dogs live somewhere far away on remote range. Leaders of the pack do not allow their charges to fight, they prevent and intervien Since you are unexperienced with dogs and actually afraid of them, you will not be able to provide strong leadership for them. I am afraid that someone can get hurt just because your dogs decide to "figure it out". I don't know of any children who got hurt by fighting dogs but knew of puppies severly injured by two adult dogs that got itn the fight on top of them.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't think livestock guardians are the correct answer for your predator problem. Dogs are not always agreeable. They will fight with each other and will push their boundries with you too. I think rehoming them now, before they have been allowed to have their way is the best thing for all concerned.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Do llamas or cows work out well with goats? I've heard they can have a protective effect with sheep. What predators do you have a problem with?


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

We have a cow - coyotes are a very real problem here and from what I've recently learned talking to a gut about his hogs, so are wild dogs.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> Food aggression is very common in LGDs. Don't feed them together, and don't let them in the barn when you're milking.
> Two littermates squabbling over food does NOT mean "dangerous dogs".
> The issue is that you are afraid of dogs.


I think you are probably just afraid of these big dogs. I understand that. But they are normal. They are rambunctious. They aren't mean or dangerous. All LGD act like that when they play with each other or argue with each other. 
They don't attack children. They just don't. LGDs would die for your children.
If you are that concerned, then I would rehome them because they need a home where they can be loved instead of feared. And you need to feel safe at your home. But do know that they won't attack your children. It just doesn't happen with LGD breeds. It's not part of their breeding at all.
And WolfFlower's words are all very true in her response.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Good to know they won't kill my children. Yes, as I sit and watch them fight I fear the thought of my baby being in the middle of it and my inability to save her. Short of being burned at a stake, I can't imagine what would be worse.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

And that in it's self is a problem. Dogs pick up on your feelings and sometimes misunderstand them. Say for instance a small harmless dog wandered into their pasture. Suddenly you feel a wave of fear. The fear is FOR the small dog but the dogs misunderstand this as fear OF the small dog so they attack it, thinking they are protecting you. Having fearful negative feelings around a dog that you are already fearful of is a very bad and dangerous thing. I honestly think that unless you can handle these dogs without feeling any fear or discomfort, you need to get rid of them now while they are still puppies. It will only get worse as they more than double in size. For giant breeds, you can double their weight at 6 months to get an idea of adult weight. So these pups are going to be more than TWICE the size they are right now. Can you handle that?


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