# deciding on breed??



## paddler (May 13, 2010)

i am a newbie with LGDs and i am in the market to purchase one. i had a ******* that had a high enough prey drive to keep predators from killing my animsals (pigs, turkeys, chickens) but he got mean and had to be put down. i am now looking to purchase a dog to live outside and keep an eye on things. i live in northeastern minnesota so i need something with a heavy coat. i have been looking at pyrenees, maremma, and anatolian. i havent had the chance to be around any of these breeds so i dont really know anything about their different temperments. i want something protective, but not mean. i just put down one dog for that and i dont want to go through that again! 

thanks for any suggestions.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

well, let me try and make my question more specific. which of these lgd breeds is the least likely to bark all night? and which one is the least likely to viciously bite a neighbor that stops over or be prone to meanness? im not too concerned about a dog that roams, i dont have any close neighbors. 

i have a 10 mo. old daughter and i want a dog that is protective of her when she is playing outside. we have a tremendous amount of bears and wolves and i took a real hit this summer from predators when i lost my hound dog. 

i have read that pyreneese are prone to barking through the night, i have also read that maremma's can be prone to meanness, what are some other opinions about this? what about an anatolian? could that live outside through a northern minnesota winter? i would appreciate any and all thoughts from lgd owners. thanks.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

Every dog is different, and each person has their favorites. I have known several Great Pyrenees, and not known any that would attack a human except in very dire circumstances. If you, as a stranger comes into the goat pen, There is no aggression, but you will always find him between you and his protectees. Now strange canines are another matter.

As far a living outside in the winter...He will either be inside the shelter with the goats, or outside covered with snow. You have to look for 3 black spots which are his nose and eyes. JMHO


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Being new to the LGD world, you might be better off with a Pyrenees.
They tend to be a little more laid back, but do tend to bark all night.

The only other breed I have experience with is the Turkish Breeds of Kangals and Boz.
The barking is less, as they tend to go out to get the predator, as opposed to barking at it all night.
Neither breed would be ideal for a first time LGD owner, as they are a dog that needs to be socialized to all experiences expected.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Is the sole reason to have an LGD to watch your daughter? If so you may want to consider something else. There are many good breeds that will bark to warn you. Please remember, I am an expert in no way, this is just an idea.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I have two 9 month old Anatolian Shepherds and LOVE them. they only bark if there is something to bark at. They don't bark for no reason. But honestly....if watching your daughter is the primary duty, you would be better off with a different breed....not a LGD breed. Anatolians don't sit there with the kid and guard....they tend to patrol borders and watch from afar. They are also not the kind of dog you can teach a lot of obediance to. They are free-thinkers and decision makers and do things their own way. That's a LGD trait that is common to all dogs in this group. When my kids were little, the best guardian dog I ever had for them was a Bouvier Des Flandres. That dog stuck to them like glue and would not allow any adult to come in the yard (other than us). She'd position herself between the kids and what ever parents were coming to get thier kids. It was awesome!! She was so easy to train and really was a fantastic guardian.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Considering you have poultry that needs watching too , it's good to look at the lgds instead of a breed with a higher prey drive. I've been very impressed with the gentle, friendly nature of the Pyrenees. You might also consider combination of a couple lgd breeds. They will bark at night, but it's more of a quiet woof, not like other breeds of dogs. Mine don't constantly bark, but will when they sense anything near the flock. Be sure to socialize the pup plenty, and work on basic training. They are big enough dogs to easily knock over or push around little kids when playing. Another option would be electronet poultry fencing to keep predators out of the birds. Then your home companion wouldn't have to be the outdoor night guard, but could be the family companion in the house as well.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

double post


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

oops...sorry I missed the part about having livestock too. Yeah you probably do want a LGD breed. I really do like my Anatolians. Their shorter coat means they are more comfortable in the summer and much less maintenance for me. My pups are fantastic with my grandson (he's 4). They adore stranger's kids too. Isaac barks more than Eli does but the bark is not a high-pitched annoying bark...it's very deep and low. Anatolians are said to be "harder" than pyrs and also more aggressive and mine are only pups now, but they are not hard at all. They are affectionate and very social if I take them places. At home, they are on-duty and guard beautifully. I am very happy with my decision to get this breed.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

right on, thank you so much for the good info! this is exactly what i was hoping to get. I do have livestock and that is my primary focus of having a dog. My wife and i are contemplating the purchase of a family dairy cow but i wont consider it until i have a dog i trust. i live in such a high predator area that i would like a larger dog that can take care of himself. A family about two miles from me just lost a lab to wolves just a couple days ago and the same thing happened earlier to a different family a couple months ago. I have considered a non LGD maybe a newfoundland, but i am skeptical if it will take any kind of role in keeping my critters from getting killed. Does anyone have any suggestions on a non LGD breed that could live outside and watch and protect my animals as well as be a family watchdog? 

I know LGD are headstrong dogs and difficult to train, i am not too worried about that, i have owned headstrong dogs and i am confident that i can do an effective job of getting it adequately socialized and trained. 

would an anatolian be happy living outside in a northern minnesota winter? i would be happy to get a mixed breed LGD if i knew where to find one. any suggestions? Anybody have a pup they are looking to get rid of?? 

thanks for all the suggestions, i would like to learn as much as i can before i make a decision, so keep any suggestions coming!


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm happy with the Pyr Anatolian cross, and have two. I would go with something with more hair, like the Pyr or a cross. Don't know of any for sale right now, but occasionally you come across some advertised. Keep looking and hold out for what you want. You might advertise on the yahoo list stockdogsforsale. Occasionally people advertise lgds on there. 
Here's another place where they are occasionally advertised. http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=3&sid=572ddda0d4a79150a42f34fe41fc6b57


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

It seems to be easier finding a pyr/anatolian cross than it is to find an Anatolian. Maremma might be a good choice for you too. Maremma have heavier coats than a Anatolian....they look a lot like pyrs. I understand they don't bark as much as pyrs do but I don't know that for sure. Kuvaz is another one you may want if you are looking for something a little harder than a pyr but I don't know how they are with children.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

i looked into kuvasz but from what i read, im not sure how well it would do with other children that were not my own. I live in such a remote area, i dont need a dog that is aggressive to people. what is the temperment of a maremma? are they prone to aggression towards people? 

i appreciate being able to ask dumb questions and get answers. thank you!


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

NO questions are dumb! None of us started out knowing all the answers and I sure don't have them all either. I am learnng too.

I am not sure any of these dogs would be appropriate for children other than your own. You know how kids are....I'd be a little afraid if one of the other kids started playing too rough with your kid that the dog might step in. Can the dog be tied or penned when stranger's kids come to visit? That's just kind of a prudent thing to do with most large breeds. 

The breeder I got my sheep from has Maremma. The male that guards the ram pen is pretty people aggressive. Kuvaz are the same way. So are Anatolians, I am told, but so far mine both love people. But I also heavily socialize them with trips to the farmer's market and feed store. IT's not in their nature to happily accept strangers though. They can be taught to tolerate them and ignore them once you give the OK, but they probably won't be thrilled with them. Pyrs are your best bet if stranger-friendly are the most important thing for you.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

An little more explanation regarding what you think happened with your Coonhound might be helpful.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Kuvasz are not good dogs for first time (LGD) owners....I'm not sure about the temperament of Kuvasz in U.S., but they can't be that different from Kuvasz in Europe.
This breed is only for experienced owners as they can indeed be very human aggressive.
I remember some of my neighbors back in the old country having Kuvasz dogs as property guardian dogs without ever having to teach their dogs to guard and charge at the fence when people would walk by, yet they always would.
And from my experience they were wonderful with their own family but not very friendly towards children that belonged to other people.

Not all Kuvasz are the same, but you'd be better off with a more easy going LGD like a purebred Great Pyrenees
Also, most if not all Kuvasz bark a lot, especially at nights.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

Refering to children, not your own...Gotta tell a story.
My 4 GK's brought their friends, (10 total, ages all near 15 except 1 5y/o) from the city to see the farm. One of the adults mentioned "Where's the kids?" They're looking at the goats. Went running to the goat pasture. My 2 Gp's had *gently* separated the 5 y/o from the rest of the bigger kids, moved him into the corner and stood protecting him from the much larger kids. Never any aggression, they were just protecting him. You could almost see the relief on their faces when I showed up.

Sorry for the thread drift...You may resume.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

thanks for the replies. thats good information. i was not really considering the kuvasz. what i read agrees with what you (grazer) said. i dont want a dog thats a liability. the sense that im getting is that the pyrenees might be the most laid back as far as being aggressive to people. i dont really care if my dog LIKES strangers or not, i just cant have one that attacks strangers. 

The coonhound i had was six years old. he was a 90 pound plott and has always been very dominant and prone to rage. He had a set of people that he approved of but i pitied the UPS man, the Jehovah's Witnesses and any other stranger that showed up at the house. He didnt bark and growl to show he was upset, instead he would approach and immediately attack with no warning signs. After my wife and i had a baby 10 months ago, he got much worse. He finally crossed the line, he nipped at the baby, and he mangled up one of my friends hands. and this was a guy that he had known for years. To be honest, im not sure what happened with him, but i have owned other hound dogs and ive never met one that was anything like this one. i would like to have given him to a different home but he had a proven record of being mean, and i didnt want to pass my problem on to someone else. putting him down was about the hardest thing ive ever had to do. 

im not a rookie dog owner. i can handle a dog that has some sense. im not sure that coonhound had any.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Nearly all your LGD breeds are roamers and if they roam the same fate will happen to them as your neighbors dogs when it runs into wolves. Its sounds like you don't have a fence? 
if so the Newfoundland may not be that bad of an idea. They are not very prey driven and large enough too intimidate most animals. They will stay closer to home too and most are protective but not a liability. They may not be a LGD but I think they would make a fine outdoor dog up here, maybe even a St. Bernard. With the tendency of most LGD's to roam and not listen to commands I don't think one would last long in wolf country unless behind a fence.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

thanks jason, i agree and have the same concern. i also like the idea of a newfoundland because they'll pull a sled. my only concern is that it wouldnt do anything to keep my animals safe. i actually found an internet article titled "the five least effective guard dog breeds" and the newfie was listed. 

my old dog had such a high prey drive that he kept predators away from my animals. he was outside constantly and i didnt lose an animal ever since i owned him. We left the state for a week this past summer and had to take the hound to a kennel. i lost 6 hens and 7 turkeys during that time. something even attacked my pigs but got tangled up in my electric fencing. 

i am certainly not set on getting a LGD breed, i am very willing to get any kind of a good outside dog that will be enough of a presence to keep predators away.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Paddler, sent you a PM...

There are two Pyr/Anatolian cross puppies in MO for sale for $50. Look at the post on the Barter Board. I'm still interested in the shorter hair one if I could find someone to help bring him closer to me in NW Illinois. We run a dairy so that trip would be too long for us to make, but we'd be willing to help out with expenses if you brought him closer to us... 

Hopefully wishing,....


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

One thing to keep in mind about LGDs in general, is that their ultimate character will depend hugely on the particular pup's temperament the amount of socialization work that you do with them when they're young. 

I've got a Kangal/Boerboel pup now that my wife and I are sparing no effort at socializing and she is turning out to be probably the most dog-agreeable, friendly, and stable dog I've ever owned. I've interacted with one of her siblings from an earlier litter, however, which received a more traditional LGD upbringing (lives outdoors with his goats) and that was one ---- hard dog. I was viewing the operation with the owner, was introduced, and the dog looked my wife and I up and down, shoulder-bumped me off-balance and peed on my leg before aloofly walking away back to his business. 

Our dog generally goes all wiggly when introduced to new people or dogs - including laying down to moderate her play with smaller pups - which is not to say her guardian instincts are not intact. She always insists on a least a few hours per day of intensive patrolling of our property, only barking at folks or critters that she deems suspicious. 

I guess my point is, how "soft" a dog you want, is not all about breed, but pup selection and upbringing too. Also sounds like your climate will be a big limiting factor regarding your breed choices. FYI, there's a temperament test in the Monks of New Skete puppy book that really helped us in identifying the right pup for our household - worth checking out.


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## Hespa (Sep 28, 2011)

Grazer,
From reading your posts, you are familiar with breeds not real familiar to America. I was wondering if you have any information on the Tornjak breed of dog. I have been researching dog breeds because our Bernese Mountain Dog will be seven this April. He has enjoyed good health during the past year but last winter we really wondered if he was going to make it much longer. We really love him and that breed but their life span is not as long as some breeds. I have found info on the Tornjak harder to find but they have caught my eye.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Hi Hespa,
yes although I've lived in several countries, I was born in part of Europe where breeds like Sarplaninac, Kuvasz, Tornjak and CO are not rare. So I had the opportunity to meet all these different breeds.
Admittedly since people raise their dogs over there a little different, these breeds might be sharper, more protective than say a Sarplaninac or a Kuvasz bred in U.S.

Tornjak is a dog native to both Bosnia and Herzegovina & Croatia.
I've never had a Tornjak myself, but the people I've known who had Tornjak would all say similar things about their Tornjaks: it's a LGD that is very effective against predators, but in general not aggressive towards strangers until they feel that their family is threatened.
So basically these dogs only use force when necessary. 

Like all other LGD's they are often stubborn and dominant, but incredibly loyal and loving towards their family.
These dogs need an early socialization.
People often say that Tornjaks have a calm and quiet nature.
Since I've never had one, I don't know just how quiet they are lol, but from my experience most if not all LGD's do bark a lot. Especially at nights

They do best in large spaces where they can look after their livestock.
But they can be good companion dogs too, as long as they get to have a big backyard that they can guard.

Tornjaks are very healthy in general, with very few problems (such as bloat/HD), but like with all large breeds it's recommended not to let puppies climb stairs until they turn 2 years old.
Tornjaks do best on a low protein diet and an adult Tornjak is about 24 to 27 inches high.


I've posted a link for you on another thread a couple of weeks ago, but I don't think you've seen it, so here's the link again : http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92450762579&v=wall

This gentleman has imported Tornjak in the past and seems to occasionally breed them.
I don't know if his dogs are any good, but if there are any Tornjak puppies available in USA/Canada he may be able to give you more information. 

This website has some good info on Tornjaks as well and it's in English: http://www.tornjak.net/kingtor/en/aboutus.htm


I'm sorry to hear about your Bernese Mountain Dog...even in Europe Bernese MD owners consider themselves lucky if their dog gets older than 8 years old.
Very tragic and I wish you best of luck with finding your future Tornjak puppy.

If you have other questions, feel free to PM me


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