# RE: Collapse of American Civilization



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, reading through that thread, the first thing I noticed ... I used to spend a lot more time in the theoretical and a lot less in the tactical nature of collapse.

I think now we're pretty well living it. Failing economy, a government intent on extracting an ever-increasing tax burden from its citizens, more constant warfare (from a president who ran against it) and the continual decline and subversion of our nation state.

And it's not even October 13th yet. I don't think we've seen anything yet.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...-american-civilization-already-collapsed.html

I have stuck the referenced thread to the top area, so people can find it.
I'll unstick it after awhile.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I guess I have a question (or two).

For 40+ years, I really have 'minded my own business'.
I have not (for the most part) paid much attention to the political side of life.

A few years ago, I found this place (HT) and a couple of others, and really started to grab ahold of a more 'self-sufficent' lifestyle.
I am more 'prepared today' than I was 5 years ago.

However, I have never spent much time or attention to the 'skies are falling' side of that equasion......mainly because (1) I didn't understand the political side of it and really didn't have the time to spend digging into it (2) it was too stressful, and my life has been stressful enough.

I don't feel like I am alone when I say I really don't know what's going on.

I have tried to 'read' but I get lost in the details, opinions, and arguing.

I am looking for a "kindergarten" explanation of:

1. What does the current government shut down mean, and how does this affect me, right now today.

2. What is the signifigance of Oct 17th, and what should I be doing to 'prepare' for the worst?

I have a kid in school, 9 hours away from me.
I told him to keep his gas tank full, and to keep 100.00 cash on him at all times.
He has a 3 day emerg. kit in his trunk.

I really don't understand what's going on, and flame away, that's what I get for not spending hours in front of the tv/radio/ net......but I am trying to live life.....I can't be the only person out there in my situation.

A simple straighforward explanation would be so greatly appreciated.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

There's some really petty bizarre stuff going on which means if anything is setting on federal land, it can be closed to the public. The next shoe to drop will be threatening SS benefits. The media will proclaim that will be the fault of the Republicans even when the administration has options to continue funding SS payments without getting a debt limit increase.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Darren said:


> There's some really petty bizarre stuff going on which means if anything is setting on federal land, it can be closed to the public.


What (other than parks) is considered "federal land" that can be 'shut down'?



> The next shoe to drop will be threatening SS benefits.


How does this affect those who do not depend on SS bennys?


----------



## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

A group from my community met to discuss this very thing. There were 8 different families represented. We took inventory of what was currently available to us. Particularly were food and heating sources were available. It is very comforting to know where my neighbors stand in their preparations, and to know we won't be "going it alone".

The biggest hurdle we felt was fuel. We have become very dependent on electricity and petroleum. This is the next area I'm working to address.


----------



## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What (other than parks) is considered "federal land" that can be 'shut down'?
> 
> 
> 
> How does this affect those who do not depend on SS bennys?


We took a trip the past weekend. I figured, to further prove we do not need the Federal Government in our lives we chose not to drive on any interstates. We did come across one problem; bridges. We had to cross the Mississippi river and could not find a bridge which was not controlled by the Federal Government. I really hope it doesn't come to it but bridges across major water ways may be a huge issue.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

As far as the 17th, in all honesty, it's more of a big bad scary date and problem the government has created to further it's agenda.. 

We could easily pay the interest on our debt if the government would quit wasting so much money on failed programs and wars, and knuckled down on fraud and waste.. 

However, that's too hard to do, so they would just rather be allowed to borrow more to pay for what it's already borrowed.. In other words, keep digging the hole as the water is reaching your neck.. .

Make sense?


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Simi, I agree, that most of this IS scare tactics....bullying at its finest (so much for ZERO tolerance huh)

However, on the off chance that this is NOT scare tactics ( worst case senario) WHAT does 'joe citizen' do to prepare for the worst, AND what IS the worst?


----------



## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

The 13th has me nervous. The million trucker march with the million vet march could get out of hand.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

willbuck1 said:


> The 13th has me nervous. The million trucker march with the million vet march could get out of hand.


Please tell me more!!
Truckers, not truckin' could be a HUGE HUGE problem.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Truckers license plates will all be traced and companies/owners/operators will be bullied by the IRS---mark my word!


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> However, on the off chance that this is NOT scare tactics ( worst case senario) WHAT does 'joe citizen' do to prepare for the worst, AND what IS the worst?


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

willbuck1 said:


> The 13th has me nervous. The million trucker march with the million vet march could get out of hand.


If it means it's the start of taking back our country, I'm not scared...


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Here is a list where are we today :runforhills:

The Cycle of Civilization
Man begins his existence in bondage, and rises:
from bondage through spiritual faith,
from spiritual faith to courage,
from courage to liberty,
from liberty to abundance,
from abundance to selfishness,
from selfishness to complacency,
from complacency to apathy,
from apathy to dependency,
from dependency back into bondage.

Once we got away from States Sovereignty and gave our rights to a Central Gov.along with the central bank we were on the slide :sing:

Most things aren't considered proper to discuss now days .At one time if one State was more to your ideas you could just move to where like minded people lived now not so ,everyone must conform to the collective :runforhills:


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

LZ5...anything could happen....it all depends on the area you live in to.last night on the world news they said 1 in 5 dollars spent right now was govt spending money....so that is 20%....thats alot in my mind considering they steal/tax to get those dollars.they dont produce....they take.

but if you work in a area that has all govt employees then the restaurants and other goods being bought will be down big time.one restaurant had just a few customers in at lunch because all their customer base was some govt agency that was furloughed.

if i was receiving any kind of help from govt i would be worried that it could end temporarily or permanent.....we have a spending problem in this country in DC and in private homes and its been going on a very long while and its going to hurt when it stops,gets fixed or whatever happens to get back to spending only what we can afford.


be prepared for anything though.


----------



## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

"Resistance is futile, you must assimilate" famous quote of the Borg. Applies to our current goberment persuasion.:bandwagon:


----------



## jbo9 (Oct 30, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I guess I have a question (or two).
> 
> [.....]
> I am looking for a "kindergarten" explanation of:
> ...


I don't know that I'm qualified to try to answer your questions, but I'll take a stab. If you have your answer already, great.

Government shut down...
About a week ago, the government "shut down". The quotes are because 80% of the government has been deemed essential and exempt from a shut-down. This is unlike the shut down in the mid 1990s, everything was shut down then. Since then some things have been declared to be essential services, like the military, border patrol, etc. Those non-essential services account for about 800,000 people temporarily without work. Since the shut down began, 300,000 civilian employees for the department of defense have been recalled.

The most visible effect of the shut-down seems to be the closing of the monuments around Washington DC. There are some other impacts, not all of them bad (my opinion). Overall, the response to the government shut down has been luke-warm; it hasn't been nearly as drastic as originally feared.

Politically, the shut-down has raised a lot of controversy in how it is being implemented. It appears to me that the goal is to make the shut-down as visible and painful as possible for publicity-sake. I think this is why the national parks and monuments have been closed; it is about motivating the public to contact their representative and demand a change of vote.

Economically, the biggest effect of the shut-down will likely be the lost wages for those 500,000 to 800,000 people who may or may not be given back pay for their wages. (One of the good things about the shut-down is that speculation in some of the commodities seems to have dropped because of the lack of technical details normally provided by the federal government, specifically the USDA and the grain and livestock markets. But that money will go somewhere).

If you don't work for the federal government or plan to travel to see a national park or monument, the impact on your day to day life may not be significant. If you work in a service industry (restaurants, bars, etc) in the DC area, you are more likely to feel the impact as fewer people are out spending money.

(I'll break it into two posts)


----------



## jbo9 (Oct 30, 2012)

(I'll break it into two posts)



Laura Zone 5 said:


> I guess I have a question (or two).
> 
> 
> [....]
> ...


The significance of October 17th is that is the date that the department of the Treasury has figured out that the check book won't be able to cover all the bills, unless Congress can raise the amount the federal government is able to borrow. If Congress does not act before October 17th, there are many different possible outcomes, but nobody is exactly sure what will happen, the US has never had this problem.

In a best case situation (meaning least impact on our day to day lives), Congress gets something passed very quickly after the 17th. Interest rates on Treasury bonds might go up slightly but settle back. The stock market would shed some points, maybe 1-2 percent, but would recover most of that when Congress does pass something. If anything is passed, it would likely only kick the can down the road; we would soon reach the new borrowing limit.

In a worst case situation, the financial chickens come home to roost. The monetary policy of the treasury, the Federal Reserve and the Federal government all fall apart because of the debt limit. The question would simply be if the frog stays in the pot and boils slowly, or it jumps out to be roasted in the fire.

Slow boil...
The interest rates (the amount of interest the Treasury has to pay on borrowed money) on Treasury bonds would go up as people/countries become unwilling to assume the risk of not getting payed (the higher the risk, the higher the interest rates, just like your credit card). This may not seem like a big deal, but doubling the rate, easy to do when it is so low now, would double the amount of money that the US would need to pay as interest on the bonds. This is a pretty sizable portion of the government spending. An increase in interest spending would cut the amount that could be spent elsewhere, such as Social Security benefits, Medicare payments or other operating costs (military payments, highway construction grants, etc). As the interest rate increases, the bonds become less desirable as a stable investment and fewer people are willing to purchase them. The value of the dollar on the international scene starts to drop and inflation becomes a problem; it takes more dollars to buy the same products from China because they don't want our money.

This stays slow only if people don't panic and react strongly. The extra money in the market (QE3) would get put in banks or spent somehow, rather than invest in stocks, bonds or speculate in commodities. There would be a drop in the stock market that would get worse and worse after a few days as it all picks up speed. By the time you notice, your 401k is not worth much and your dollar buys even less than it did.

The Frog roasts if people realize how this all works and rush to the bank on Friday morning to pull their money from the banks and close their investments. The stock market would tank and hit the daily limit, banks would run out of physical paper dollars and close early and the grocery store shelves would be empty by noon. The price of everything would jump drastically, doubling and tripling in hours, as people have lots of cash from their bank and don't care about what it costs to get something to show for their money.


How do you prep for any of this? Ideally, be a long range producer rather than consumer of products (Have something to sell, rather than be looking to buy everything when the going gets bad)

In the short term, if you really think you will loose all your stock investments, come to peace with that, or be willing to sell at the moment things start to go. If you really want to gamble, pick one or two companies that you think will outlast the crash and buy big. Think long term on recover, a matter of years, not days or months.

Other short term preps would be simply to have what you want to purchase already bought before then. Think of the ammunition shortage last winter. If you wanted ammo before it went crazy, you got a good deal. If you waited a day, you might still be waiting because of the supply shortage. 

I hope that none of this happens, because hitting the bottom would be rough, like 1930s would look like a picnic rough. Some of it might be a scare tactic; it would depend on how much President Obama wants to make it hurt. I think Congress will pass some short term patch and not much will change. The most creative way out of all this is the Treasury coining a platinum coin and depositing it with the federal reserve. It would be like finding a gold bar in your couch cushions as you are trying to figure out how to rob Peter to pay Paul with your bills that are past due.

I hope that this helps.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The debt ceiling issue cracks me up. The Democrats and progressives are whining with their talking point that "we should pay our debts", but the hilarity of the matter comes from the fact that we have to raise the amount we can borrow in order to pay those debts.

America, as a nation state, is DONE. It cannot be saved. The politicians have borrowed and printed so much money that we can never resolve it. 

Well, not without a long period of intense suffering and hardship ... and I have seen nothing in the American culture which leads me to believe that we would willingly undergo the necessary changes.


----------



## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

I still don't, or rather cannot understand how our nation can hand out money to other nations, when we are borrowing/creating out of thin air. 
What I really wonder, is will it keep a slowly settling, like an old building, and finally slump down....or will it be like a house eat up by termites, standing, looks ok, but the first stiff wind flatten it.....
I know the nation is on a path to disaster.....anybody should be able to see, but there are certain groups that proclaim victory over gravity, to the point everybody is floating.....with the exception of a few folks that are so grounded with common sense, they hold fast.
I still say what's coming will make former troubles seem like a cake walk....I hope I'm wrong


----------



## jbo9 (Oct 30, 2012)

Ernie said:


> The debt ceiling issue cracks me up. The Democrats and progressives are whining with their talking point that "we should pay our debts", but the hilarity of the matter comes from the fact that we have to raise the amount we can borrow in order to pay those debts.
> 
> America, as a nation state, is DONE. It cannot be saved. The politicians have borrowed and printed so much money that we can never resolve it.
> 
> Well, not without a long period of intense suffering and hardship ... and I have seen nothing in the American culture which leads me to believe that we would willingly undergo the necessary changes.


I don't disagree with you at all Ernie. How do you like your bandaids to come off, slow and hopefully less painful, or quick and get the pain done with? 

The biggest problem is that there isn't even agreement on what the problem really is. Is it just a small festering wound, or a far deeper cancer of our society? If we can't agree what it is, how will we agree on the best couse of action?


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

plowhand said:


> I still don't, or rather cannot understand how our nation can hand out money to other nations, when we are borrowing/creating out of thin air.
> What I really wonder, is will it keep a slowly settling, like an old building, and finally slump down....or will it be like a house eat up by termites, standing, looks ok, but the first stiff wind flatten it.....
> I know the nation is on a path to disaster.....anybody should be able to see, but there are certain groups that proclaim victory over gravity, to the point everybody is floating.....with the exception of a few folks that are so grounded with common sense, they hold fast.
> I still say what's coming will make former troubles seem like a cake walk....I hope I'm wrong


 
I am isolationist enough that I think we should keep our generous loans (that are not paid back by other nations) home, and take care of ourself first.
If there are things like earthquakes, tornadoes, etc - Usually there are a lot of charities that try to help - and even then, many times the help funds and best goods are skimmed by the disaster nation's Powers that Can.

I'm not sure our money is doing anything more than buying more trouble in more than one way.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

jbo9 said:


> I don't disagree with you at all Ernie. How do you like your bandaids to come off, slow and hopefully less painful, or quick and get the pain done with?
> 
> The biggest problem is that there isn't even agreement on what the problem really is. Is it just a small festering wound, or a far deeper cancer of our society? If we can't agree what it is, how will we agree on the best couse of action?


Well, in just the past two decades of my "political awareness", I've watched this government turn into a draconian police state. So the faster that government falls, the better off that we, as citizens, will be.

It's a cancer, and I think some pretty radical therapy is called for.

I am about as prepared as I can be for the fall of the government and the rough interim period that will follow until order is reestablished (hopefully along the lines of the true republic we were meant to be.)

Does waiting help the side of freedom or does it help the side of the police state?


----------



## raybait1 (Sep 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Well, in just the past two decades of my "political awareness", I've watched this government turn into a draconian police state. So the faster that government falls, the better off that we, as citizens, will be.
> 
> It's a cancer, and I think some pretty radical therapy is called for.
> 
> ...


That is the $10,000 question. Do you have a lean one way or the other? I'm starting to question my own ideas.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

raybait1 said:


> That is the $10,000 question. Do you have a lean one way or the other? I'm starting to question my own ideas.


I think the longer they can keep printing phony money and keep the bread and circuses running the longer they have to complete the "police state" they need to prevent an uprising.

Right now, we still have guns in our closets, we can still educate our own children, and we don't have to report to a government labor boss every morning at 8am. 

If we wait until America is just one big gulag from sea to shining sea, then it's going to be much harder to successfully execute a revolution.

And I think it should be clear to all but the most willfully ignorant that a big gulag is what they intend to make of this nation.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree with Ernie.

.....and it seems that Washington is hellbent on a confrontation, with _someone_.

There is little justification for revolt, at the moment, however, because all they have done is entice the masses to participate, by rather threatening invitation.
I don't see a lot of force being applied.....only coercion by ignorance and intimidation.

Grow a pair and say no, yourself, so to speak........... before you expect anyone to take up arms to defend you.

When force becomes the order of the day, and people genuinely begin to resist of their own accord, then we might have more to talk about.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Ernie said:


> The debt ceiling issue cracks me up. The Democrats and progressives are whining with their talking point that "we should pay our debts", but the hilarity of the matter comes from the fact that we have to raise the amount we can borrow in order to pay those debts.
> 
> America, as a nation state, is DONE. It cannot be saved. The politicians have borrowed and printed so much money that we can never resolve it.
> 
> Well, not without a long period of intense suffering and hardship ... and I have seen nothing in the American culture which leads me to believe that we would willingly undergo the necessary changes.


And that's for sure! Has anyone looked up witch party has raised, extended or modified the debt ceiling the most? Do not look for any kind of sane solution from the govt. Your children and grandchildren are relying on you to make some preparations.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I've read the old post and this new one. I had a grandad that was born in 1909. He always told me three things. #1 The gov. has to keep sending out those checks or there will be a revolution #2 Social Security wouldnt be around for me. # 3 If I lived to be an old man I would see # 1


----------



## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

TripleD said:


> I've read the old post and this new one. I had a grandad that was born in 1909. He always told me three things. #1 The gov. has to keep sending out those checks or there will be a revolution #2 Social Security wouldnt be around for me. # 3 If I lived to be an old man I would see # 1


Just curious...
What age bracket are you in? Do you think that SS will be around for you? 

I always operated under the premise that it wouldn't be there for me. Hubby did, too. He is almost of the age that he'll be able to collect. I'm younger than he is but now believe that it will be there, though it may be a lesser dollar figure than it was "supposed" to be. At any rate, we never counted on it being an integral part of our golden years. If it is there, then that money can be for savings or a few frivolities.


----------



## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

The shutdown and the debt ceiling are theater. Neither is immediately threatening, although raising the debt ceiling is another step towards the inevitable.

Our best efforts should be spent in preparedness, food - water- shelter - defense. It's no use to worry, just do what you can for yourself, as when the time comes the gov't will be glad to feed you - inside the wire.

In the not too distant future, I think, we'll see an orchestrated event seemingly beyond control affect the world economies. The result being chaos and civil unrest never seen before. I do believe this country will fare better than most, due to the huge arsenal in the hands of the populace. The outcome? Depends on how many people are willing to stay outside the wire.


----------



## hurryiml8 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ozarks Tom said:


> The shutdown and the debt ceiling are theater. Neither is immediately threatening, although raising the debt ceiling is another step towards the inevitable.
> 
> Our best efforts should be spent in preparedness, food - water- shelter - defense. It's no use to worry, just do what you can for yourself, as when the time comes the gov't will be glad to feed you - inside the wire.
> 
> In the not too distant future, I think, we'll see an orchestrated event seemingly beyond control affect the world economies. The result being chaos and civil unrest never seen before. I do believe this country will fare better than most, due to the huge arsenal in the hands of the populace. The outcome? Depends on how many people are willing to stay outside the wire.


I agree. It's out of our control. All I can do is prepare for my family to be fed in the hard times to come. There's just too many wanting something for nothing and to be taken care of by the gov.


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What (other than parks) is considered "federal land" that can be 'shut down'?
> 
> 
> 
> How does this affect those who do not depend on SS bennys?


It would effect anyone who is worried about other people and family members that don't get them. Because we will have to step up and help.
We are prepping to help others, just in case.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> Just curious...
> What age bracket are you in? Do you think that SS will be around for you?
> 
> I always operated under the premise that it wouldn't be there for me. Hubby did, too. He is almost of the age that he'll be able to collect. I'm younger than he is but now believe that it will be there, though it may be a lesser dollar figure than it was "supposed" to be. At any rate, we never counted on it being an integral part of our golden years. If it is there, then that money can be for savings or a few frivolities.


 I'm 49. All my income comes from rental property and I dont pay SS on rental income.


----------

