# Installing 5KW solar system.



## Murby (May 24, 2016)

The wife and I decided to invest in a solar panel system for our home.. 

So far, we figure a 5KW system using the following:
Solar World 270 Watt Mono panels (18 of them)
SMA SunnyBoy 6000watt inverter

Ground mounting hardware kit + wires + monitoring 

For the entire kit, panels, inverter, cables, ground mounting, even permit documents, I got a quote of $7800 including shipping costs.. I figure I can knock off another 30% of that with the federal tax credits.... That would bring the system cost down to around $5500.. That's just over a 4 year payback ! WOW!

Anyone have any experience with this stuff? I'll be installing the system myself.

What kind of failure rates are there for solar panels and the inverters? I'm not using China garbage.. Solar World (USA and Germany) and SMA are well known and respected brands. 

Anyone have any surprises when they installed their system? Glitches? 

What kind of savings did you see in real life vs. the calculators?

Thanks!


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

First make sure you system qualifies for federal tax credit. Usually self installed systems DONT!!! 

Looks like your going grid tied, so the only time the panels are active is during the day, You will still have an electic bill and dont count on the meter running backwards. YOu can offset your daily cost and reduce your bill. Did you figure your power needs based on daytime usage or 24hr usage. You might need to re calcuate. 

Is 5kw enough?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I assume you've already researched the utility's attitude in your area. A friend ended up going completely off grid due to issues with the utility in Washington D.C. and the smart meters. I know they had a problem with the main battery pack due an operational issue after they were forced off grid.

I'm looking at doing something similar since receiving info on the smart meter mandate and also talking with a vehicle conversion expert. In my case I can use a converted 360 CID Cummins running on natural gas to drive up to a 100KW generator so I can maybe improve relations with the utility.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> First make sure you system qualifies for federal tax credit. Usually self installed systems DONT!!!


No, the Feds don't ask...you simply claim the % allowed (which I believe drops in later years of the credit extension act) and that's it. You can't claim any value of your own labor, only what you paid for materials if DIY.




Gary in ohio said:


> Looks like your going grid tied, so the only time the panels are active is during the day, You will still have an electric bill and don't count on the meter running backwards. YOU can offset your daily cost and reduce your bill.


Along this line, you most likely will have to have an 'interconnect agreement' with your power provider to connect anything that ties to their system....and some of them will set up enough hoops to discourage that. My provider now requires the system only be installed by a NABCEPT certified installer...no DIY allowed.

And if you think you can just ignore that, one of the features of the new smart meters is they can easily tell when power is produced on your side of the meter...so no only will they not run backwards like the old analog meters, you'll get a visit from the electric company wanting to know what's going on.

The only way to avoid that is take yourself, or a section of your use, completely off line from them....and that involves battery use.

MAKE SURE you investigate the above before you shell out for materials you may not be able to use !


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> First make sure you system qualifies for federal tax credit. Usually self installed systems DONT!!!


Our DIY system qualified.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Our electric utility is Detroit Edison.. www.dteenergy.com 

They have a "net metering" program and are required by state law to provide me with a lifetime, non-expiring, energy credit at retail rates. But I will never receive a check.. only credit for future use.

Our home uses just under 600 KWH per month so I've sized the system to provide almost that much power but slightly over-sized the inverter in case I wish to add another 1KW worth of panels. In other words, my 4800 watts of panels will be hooked to a 6000 watt inverter... 
Cool snippet about my grid-tie inverter is that when grid power goes down, it will still provide me with up to 2000 watts of power so long as the sun is shinning.. The 2000 watts is tapped from a normal household plug situated next to the inverter box. Cool eh?

As far as DTE trying to get me to jump through hoops.. My wife is a professional circus acrobat when it comes to bureaucratic horse manure.. It's literally what she does for a living.. She is quite good at navigating paperwork mazes. 

I am unaware of any license to install solar panels.. Is there any state that has some kind of special "solar panel licensing board"?? Do they have their requirements listed as to what it takes to get a license? 

I don't know how anyone can comfortably go off grid economically.. Storage options are just WAY to expensive as are the electronics to create pure-sine power at levels required to do real work like welding or water heating or other things that draw high amperage.

I looked into it.. If I could figure out a way to store power and feed it back, I'd install a system twice the size and just disconnect from the utility.. 

Thanks for the replies..


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Darren said:


> In my case I can use a converted 360 CID Cummins running on natural gas to drive up to a 100KW generator so I can maybe improve relations with the utility.


That's awesome! I converted my Coleman 6KW home generator to run on my natural gas.. I broke into the NG pipes in the basement, installed a T fitting and a ball valve and ran the tap outside.. When I need it, I just unscrew the dust cap, hook up a 1.5" propane rated gas hose, and connect it to my 5KW generator with a 10hp Tecumseh.. That generator never ran so good on gasoline as it does on natural gas.. 

A year back, we lost power for 4 days and I ran the generator continuously for the entire time.. Only stopped it once to change oil. 

There was no noticeable change in my gas bill for the month.. Huh? How could that be? I have no idea but if there was a change, it couldn't have been more than 5 bucks.. My natural gas bill runs around $20 to $30 a month and it never went above that. 
Running that generator on gasoline would have cost me around $100 for that 4 days..


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Murby said:


> ... They have a "net metering" program and are required by state law to provide me with a lifetime, non-expiring, energy credit at retail rates. But I will never receive a check.. only credit for future use.


Here in Maine, they never pay you either.





> ... Cool snippet about my grid-tie inverter is that when grid power goes down, it will still provide me with up to 2000 watts of power so long as the sun is shinning.. The 2000 watts is tapped from a normal household plug situated next to the inverter box. Cool eh?


Yes. 

Here, by law, when the grid goes down all net-metering systems are required to go down also.





> ... I am unaware of any license to install solar panels.. Is there any state that has some kind of special "solar panel licensing board"??


No such thing here in Maine either.

There is a license for installing any net-metering system.





> ... I don't know how anyone can comfortably go off grid economically.. Storage options are just WAY to expensive as are the electronics to create pure-sine power at levels required to do real work like welding or water heating or other things that draw high amperage.


Here an off-grid system is cheaper than a net-metering system.

Because there are so many restrictions on net-metering and installers, the prices are jacked up a lot.

It is much cheaper to install an off-grid system or a grid-assist system along with batteries, rather than installing a net-metering system.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Murby said:


> I am unaware of any license to install solar panels.. Is there any state that has some kind of special "solar panel licensing board"?? Do they have their requirements listed as to what it takes to get a license?


Many places require an electrical license to install any electrical gear.

NABCEP ( http://www.nabcep.org/ ) is a license, it's a certification program stating the person has met certain training requirements in solar design and installation. Given a lack of specific licensing in solar, many locations (the entire TVA power system for example) are requiring it before they will let you connect to their system.




Murby said:


> I don't know how anyone can comfortably go off grid economically.. Storage options are just WAY to expensive as are the electronics to create pure-sine power at levels required to do real work like welding or water heating or other things that draw high amperage.


Pure sine wave isn't required for any of those things you listed. Motors and electronics are what often need 'cleaner' power than cheaper inverters can provide.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> Many places require an electrical license to install any electrical gear.
> 
> NABCEP ( http://www.nabcep.org/ ) is a license, it's a certification program stating the person has met certain training requirements in solar design and installation. Given a lack of specific licensing in solar, many locations (the entire TVA power system for example) are requiring it before they will let you connect to their system.


You just contradicted yourself.

First you claim a license is required for every system, then you show a quote that only a tiny portion of solar systems require a license. Which is it?



Here in my state on the East Coast, they likewise require a special license for some systems. Only the Net-metering systems though, roughly 1/4 of all solar power systems. Most solar systems do not require anything.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> You just contradicted yourself.
> 
> NABCEP ( http://www.nabcep.org/ ) is (not) a license, it's a certification program


 Clearly I was unclear  as I omitted the word "not".....my typing sometimes lags my intent.....sorry.


ALL the below pertains to *grid tied systems.*

Here you have to have an electrician's license to install the system, PLUS have to have the solar certification. 

For a company doing solar installation, this could be separate folks in the company holding the particular certification/license....but it could be the same person in a small company. When I took the course for entry level certification, the class was full of folks from commercial companies seeking the same (This was in North Carolina) because I think it was either a current requirement there, or going to be shortly.

HERE, you could skip the electrician license part IF you're a home owner pulling the permit for your own home, BUT you would still have to have the solar cert part, (entire TVA system requirement) which effectively eliminates most DIY installations.....that's WHY I took the cert course. 

Now they have raised the certification level from 'entry' to 'installer' level, which requires more continuing ed + having done a certain number of installations, so I don't qualify to install any more. I'm not going back to get the higher cert because I'm not in the business of installing. 

Some places will let you do your own electrical work, provided you pass inspections, other places require an electrical license no matter what.

From http://www.solarenergy.org/state-licensing-requirements/

Even in states that do not have contractor licensing requirements, financial incentive programs often include installer requirements, such as pre-approval or, some cases, NABCEP certification. Although intended as a voluntary, value-added credential, NABCEP certification is now either mandatory or preferred for contractors who seek to install systems eligible for state incentive programs. *For example,* to be eligible for state rebate funds in *Maine, Minnesota or Wisconsin* and possibly more, a PV system must be installed by a NABCEP-certified professional. 

California, Delaware and Massachusetts, etc. rebate programs prefer or recommend NABCEP-certified professionals. In Utah, NABCEP-certification is a prerequisite for qualifying for a state solar contractor license.


This site is a State by State guide that lists some of the hoops you'll need to jump thru to install grid tied PV solar in your State:

https://solarpowerrocks.com/


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

My home is grid-tied, specifically as a grid-assisted system. My system is not net-metering. I do not have the ability to put power onto the grid.

We have the ability to use grid-power as an aux input to our home.

In this state, net-metering systems require a special license for the installers.

Off-grid systems and grid-assisted systems like mine do not require such.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

TnAndy said:


> Many places require an electrical license to install any electrical gear.
> 
> NABCEP ( http://www.nabcep.org/ ) is a license, it's a certification program stating the person has met certain training requirements in solar design and installation. Given a lack of specific licensing in solar, many locations (the entire TVA power system for example) are requiring it before they will let you connect to their system.


Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe the point is made irrelevant by other issues, but the nabcep is a non-profit (read: for profit) entity.. not a government regulatory body. Who's pockets are they bribing to become some centralized licensing authority? 

That's like saying "We won't let you work as a cashier at a movie theater until Walmart says you're certified" ... 

Other professional licenses like electrical, architectural, plumbing, attorney, medical, etc, all require a state (government) test to obtain a license.

So what am I missing?

The nabcep claims they are "raising the standards", but so far as what I can tell, they just want to monopolize the standards. Solar panels are just another electrical item like any other. 



> Pure sine wave isn't required for any of those things you listed. Motors and electronics are what often need 'cleaner' power than cheaper inverters can provide.


I think you're wrong.. I'm an electrical engineer myself... that said, to be honest, I don't have enough experience with inverters to really argue the point and stick to my guns.. But even though my position is weak, I still think you're wrong.. I'll have to look into this...


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Murby said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe the point is made irrelevant by other issues, but the nabcep is a non-profit (read: for profit) entity.. not a government regulatory body. Who's pockets are they bribing to become some centralized licensing authority?
> 
> That's like saying "We won't let you work as a cashier at a movie theater until Walmart says you're certified" ...
> 
> ...


Don't disagree with what you're saying, just telling you how it is....if you want to hook up solar on the TVA system, you're gonna have it. 



Murby said:


> I think you're wrong.. I'm an electrical engineer myself... that said, to be honest, I don't have enough experience with inverters to really argue the point and stick to my guns.. But even though my position is weak, I still think you're wrong.. I'll have to look into this...


https://www.altestore.com/blog/2015/10/pure-sine-wave-vs-modified-sine-wave-whats-the-difference/

A *modified* *sine wave* inverter can be used for simple systems that donât have any delicate electronics or audio equipment that may pick up the choppy wave and produce a hum. Old tube TVs and motors with brushes are usually ok with modified sine wave. Your digital clock will likely act funky, and battery rechargers quite often just plain wonât work. Some equipment may seem to be working fine, but may run hotter than with a pure sine wave and reduce the life of it.
Take heed if youâre considering buying a modified square wave inverter to shave a few bucks off your system costs. A whole raft of modern appliances wonât run as well and some not at all on this waveform:


Laser printers, photocopiers, and anything with an electrical component called a thyristor
Anything with a silicon-controlled rectifier (SCR), like those used in some washing machine controls
A few laptop computers
Some fluorescent lights with electronic ballasts
Some battery chargers for cordless tools
Some new furnaces and pellet heaters with microprocessor controls
Digital clocks with radios
Appliances having speed/microprocessor controls (like some sewing machines)
X-10 home automation systems
Medical equipment such as oxygen concentrators
 In general, because the total harmonic distortion is higher in modified square wave inverters, motors will run hotter (less efficiently, consuming up to 30% more energy than with pure sine wave inverters), and likely not last as long. Additionally, a modified square wave inverter will often cause a âbuzzâ to be heard from audio devices and sometimes other appliances like ceiling fans and microwave ovens.
We liken using a modified sine wave inverter to running a car with square wheels versus a pure sine wave inverter like running a car with round wheels. In the first case the ride is going to be awful rough and depending on the sensitivity of the carâs occupants they may not survive the ride.


*Pure* sine wave is always needed for a grid tie system. It is generally needed for newer LED TVs, CFL light bulbs, and inductive loads like brushless motors. Clocks and audio equipment will behave much better on a pure sine wave.


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