# End Taxpayer Funded Education



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Except for welfare kids and give them a voucher for things such as,,,


From:http://spectator.org/articles/61784/private-school-public-scale

A small test is being conducted in North Carolina that could prove to be a model for national success. 

Located in Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill metro region, Thales Academy is a K-12 college preparatory private school that is tearing down the private-school cost barrier. Whatâs more, the schools are showing that quality instruction and a high price tag need not go hand-in-hand.

Although Wake County boasts some of the best public schools in the nation (a point that local residents will debate endlessly), Thales Academy has local public-school zealots in a tizzy. 

The combination of quality instruction and comparatively inexpensive tuition are the main driving factors in its growth. Parents here in Wake County are on waiting lists for magnet and charter schools. Demand far exceeds supply.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Schools have become a big money pit at all levels . I have seen them build new schools that cost way and above good sense :hammer:


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Public education is one of the last bastions of union power.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Schools have become a big money pit at all levels . I have seen them build new schools that cost way and above good sense :hammer:


Come on, you mean a high school (Allen TX) didn't really need an $60 million football stadium?
:facepalm::hammer:


----------



## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> Come on, you mean a high school (Allen TX) didn't really need an $60 million football stadium?
> :facepalm::hammer:


Of course they did, you've heard the saying "in Texas, high school football isn't a matter of life and death, it's much more important than that".


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

A nearby small city that pulled out of the county school system 35 years ago is currently almost $40 million in the red yet the city appropriated $12 million of that debt over the last 5 years to build a ivy league looking high school campus instead of doing only two to four million dollars worth of renovation and expansion to the existing high school to keep it viable for the same 30 years the fancy $12 million campus expected lifespan is to be.

Not only is the city adding to its debt, they are still losing businesses out of the industrial park that at one time accounted about half of the city commercial tax revenue.

Another community that is within its budget is adding 20 years of projected lifespan renovation and expansion to its high school for less than $250k borrowed against its $700k surplus fund as the town courts a couple small industries.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Schools have become a big money pit at all levels . I have seen them build new schools that cost way and above good sense :hammer:


I totally agree. I've long said students can learn as well in a pole type structure as these multi million dollar monuments to stupidity they build today. The old one room schoolhouses that dotted the landscape in my youth were very effective learning centers. Kids learned more in 8 grades than they do in 12 today. I know people who went to them and became lifelong successes in business and other things. I had an older lady math teacher teaching me solid geometry in grade 12 in 1965 who only went to 7th grade herself. She began teaching right out of 7th grade and retired a couple years after I graduated. I remember her telling the class she learned solid geometry in the 6th grade.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mnn2501 said:


> Come on, you mean a high school (Allen TX) didn't really need an $60 million football stadium?
> :facepalm::hammer:


OMG, My wife is from Allen. 

No they didn't need that but the sad thing is Allen will pay for that stadium in sold seats. As a builder, I built a 10 million stadium in Carthage Tx. The 3A wonders that have won state two out of three years and I have heard that it will be profitable if they continue. And we know Allen has continued to be at the top for a while. 

I googled a pic of that Allen stadium and it looked bigger than the Cowboys old stadium in Irving. Probably wasn't but looked like it anyway.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Of course they did, you've heard the saying "in Texas, high school football isn't a matter of life and death, it's much more important than that".


Sad but true. Friday night lights are the highlight of our weekend. Most anyway. I say this as my granddaughter starts softball this year. Man it is expensive. Gonna cost me 800 bucks just to get all her stuff. Wasn't that much when I was a kid. 300 bucks for a bat????


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> Come on, you mean a high school (Allen TX) didn't really need an $60 million football stadium?
> :facepalm::hammer:


Even in MN we don't get quite that extravagant with our HS hockey arenas. I'd like to check out a game there. I've heard the college games are pretty spectacular in the south. Some say they pale our hockey games. I can't imagine, hockey can be crazy.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I would love to see all state and federal financial support for colleges stopped. Once low interest college loans are stopped, watch the cost of tuition drop like a rock. You might actually have college professors teach more than 1 or 2 classes a semester.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I would love to see all state and federal financial support for colleges stopped. Once low interest college loans are stopped, watch the cost of tuition drop like a rock. You might actually have college professors teach more than 1 or 2 classes a semester.


Many tenured college professors teach no classes. The classes are taught by graduate students,, who want to become tenured professors.


----------



## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> Come on, you mean a high school (Allen TX) didn't really need an $60 million football stadium?
> :facepalm::hammer:


Across the river in Columbus GA, they have this 1% sales tax that keeps getting "recycled" every few years (voted in for X purpose of X duration, it expires, then voted on again for either the same use or a different use).

Currently, the tax is expired and up for vote again. If it's voted in again, TPTB want to use it for sports arenas/fields/gyms. No mention of anything USEFUL, mind you...just play things.

The importance some parents attach to their kid's organized sports never ceases to amaze me! I often wonder if as much importance were attached to, you know, EDUCATION...........
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I come from a family of teachers, so I've seen the system from a few angles. Public schools exist to supposedly educate students, but in reality they are babysitters for underaged kids. Think about it: both parents work nowadays, and you can't leave kids those ages home unattended during the day. Listen to how loudly parents pitch fits when schools close due to weather, and the parents are stuck scrambling to find someone to watch their kids while they're at work.

It's pretty much proven that kids who have parents who value education will also value education. Parents who use school as a daycare and who don't give two licks about grades/etc have kids who will resist being educated. 

With the way our country is structured right now, people are encouraged to milk the system and not work. So if we made education optional, we'd have to put some kind of conditions on being eligible for welfare/SSI/etc. Otherwise, people would be hitting age 18 with zero education (parents didn't bother) and they'd be unable to get a job, so they'd go on the dole. That's a serious concern.

However, saying you only get "free" education if you're on welfare will just encourage more people to go on welfare, so I disagree with that as well.

I worked with a young lady once who was from Africa, and she was seeing me because she was having a hard time making friends at school. She explained to me that where she was born, education was a privilege. If you scored poorly on tests, or didn't take it seriously, your parents would stop wasting money on your tuition and you'd be out in the fields working from sunup to sundown 7 days a week for the rest of your short life. The kids she was in high school with here in the good ol' USA were focused on skipping classes, copying other people's homework, and basically saw education as an unnecessary chore. She told me that she had lost it with one of the girls in her class about how blacks in this country had fought for the right to be educated not too many years ago, and now they were whining and complaining about "having" to go to school. She felt so left out, nobody her age got how important education was or why it was such a gift that everyone in this country can attend public schools without having to pay tuition. Plus if you failed a test, they didn't cane you in front of the class 

I'm not sure what the answer is. I do know that kids in this country, for the most part, do not have any concept of the fact that in many parts of the world, education is only for the very wealthy, and child labor is the norm for kids of school age. Because they don't see it as a privilege, they don't put their full effort into it. And because the Feds have stuck their regulations into the system, it's beyond broken. School in this country has turned into glorified babysitting, paid for by the taxpayers, literally free for those who do not work or who work under the table and pay no taxes. Something's got to change, and soon.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Blue,
Almost 7% drop out of school today. Over 60% go on to college. Almost half of that 60% graduate college.

I would suggest we can publicly fund babysitting for those 40%, offering whatever education they dedicate themselves to and leave it at that.

I would further suggest, of the 60%, we should not burden them with our sub-par public education system, and let the free market, as illustrated in my first post, serve them.

I am not implying that all kids should go to college. Use the public school system to teach the basics. Call it done at the 8th grade. Use the remaining 9th thru 12 grade to teach a marketable, and useful trade to those motivated to do so.

Let those that want more get more, let those causing problems and disrupting classes go at the 8th grade. Society tried, and the student is responsible for their own success or failure.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

People who have kids should shoulder the expense of educating the kids. Why put the load on people who choose not to have kids? If you can't take care of your kids don't have them.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

So....the taxpayers get to subsidize this whiz bang new private school system as well as pay for the public schools? 

From the article:
_In 2013, the legislature approved (and Gov. Pat McCrory signed into law) a bill that provides scholarships up to $4,200 annually toward a private school education for children from low-income and working-class households._

The description of the school itself does sound like a good model, and if it continues to be successful it will be copied. 

A lot of what you learn in public school has nothing to do with reading, writing and arithmetic. We didn't have much money when I was a kid, but our needs were met and I had a stable home. I saw that many of my schoolmates were not so fortunate and that left a lasting impression. I'm glad for that experience. I wouldn't want to be a "charity" or "subsidized" kid in a school full of "haves".


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> So....the taxpayers get to subsidize this whiz bang new private school system as well as pay for the public schools?
> 
> From the article:
> _In 2013, the legislature approved (and Gov. Pat McCrory signed into law) a bill that provides *scholarships up to $4,200 annually toward a private school education for children from low-income and working-class households.*_
> ...


I think you have to do that rather than condemn them to a substandard public school education. That is what I meant in my first post about welfare kids.

Balance that with a refund on taxes paid that are used for public education when you go to a private school. It gets complicate fast, but what we do now is off kilter for a million reasons.

It is probably a better investment than 5 years of incarceration. How many could you educate for the cost of one being in jail?


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

pancho said:


> People who have kids should shoulder the expense of educating the kids. Why put the load on people who choose not to have kids? If you can't take care of your kids don't have them.


I agree totally. One family here has 11 kids. Costs the taxpayer $110,000 per year to educate them. That's the system for ya, and some people use it for all its worth. And we whine about a single mom getting food stamps.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Good catch MO and excellent point.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> I agree totally. One family here has 11 kids. Costs the taxpayer $110,000 per year to educate them. That's the system for ya, and some people use it for all its worth. And we whine about a single mom getting food stamps.


Not only do others have to pay for their education we also have to pay for 2-3 meals a day, and baby setting.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I think you have to do that rather than condemn them to a substandard public school education. That is what I meant in my first post about welfare kids.
> 
> Balance that with a refund on taxes paid that are used for public education when you go to a private school. It gets complicate fast, but what we do now is off kilter for a million reasons.
> 
> It is probably a better investment than 5 years of incarceration. How many could you educate for the cost of one being in jail?


So, the solution to fixing public education is to abandon it like rats deserting a sinking ship? 

What happened to higher education once the government started underwriting student loans to anybody with a pulse? The cost went up, waaaaaaay more than inflation, and for-profit schools of questionable merit sprang up everywhere. And because of the availability of the loans, I think parents saving for college and kids themselves saving for college has gone down. Why sacrifice for it when you can just sign a note? So, what would happen to schools for grades K-12 if a huge wad of totally free, no payback required, taxpayer money was infused into it? Would this really be a good thing?

If you don't like how things are going in your local schools, then join the PTA, run for the school board or at least show up for meetings. The world is run by the people who show up! Any school district could benefit from more parental involvement. It's when we leave things up to someone else or the government, trouble always follows.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> So, the solution to fixing public education is to abandon it like rats deserting a sinking ship?
> 
> What happened to higher education once the government started underwriting student loans to anybody with a pulse? The cost went up, waaaaaaay more than inflation, and for-profit schools of questionable merit sprang up everywhere. And because of the availability of the loans, I think parents saving for college and kids themselves saving for college has gone down. Why sacrifice for it when you can just sign a note? So, what would happen to schools for grades K-12 if a huge wad of totally free, no payback required, taxpayer money was infused into it? Would this really be a good thing?
> 
> If you don't like how things are going in your local schools, then join the PTA, run for the school board or at least show up for meetings. The world is run by the people who show up! Any school district could benefit from more parental involvement. It's when we leave things up to someone else or the government, trouble always follows.


You are pro union I take it?


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

HDRider said:


> You are pro union I take it?


Pro Government too :buds:


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm not anti union. Collective bargaining is a sound concept and has a place. I would like to see reform so unions can't play politics with member money unless they establish a separate fund for free will member donations for that purpose. They should have to use the dues money for member services only. 

What's that got to do with taxpayers funding private school tuition?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> I'm not anti union. Collective bargaining is a sound concept and has a place. I would like to see reform so unions can't play politics with member money unless they establish a separate fund for free will member donations for that purpose. They should have to use the dues money for member services only.
> 
> What's that got to do with taxpayers funding private school tuition?



Think about it..


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I encourage you to do the same if you think a teacher's union is to blame for the state of some public schools today. Decay in those communities, and society at large is more like it.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> I encourage you to do the same if you think a teacher's union is to blame for the state of some public schools today. Decay in those communities, and society at large is more like it.


Could one attribute the decay in part to holding on to a out dated Gov managed system ,controlled by both Gov and unions :hammer:


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

MO_cows said:


> I encourage you to do the same if you think a teacher's union is to blame for the state of some public schools today. Decay in those communities, and society at large is more like it.


That's for sure!


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Could one attribute the decay in part to holding on to a out dated Gov managed system ,controlled by both Gov and unions :hammer:


What outdated government managed system, the public schools? Basic education is outdated? 

When this country was being settled and a new community was established, the first things built were a church and a school. Public education is not a bad idea, it just needs to be done better. 

A few vocal, involved parents at conferences, open houses, and school board meetings can keep a whole district on its best behavior. One parent's objection to one piece of classroom material has led to legislation in Kansas that parents get to review sex ed material and give permission for their kids to receive it. ONE parent and some media attention..... 

But anybody who would prefer to just keep on complaining to the Internet Fairy, be sure and let us know how that works out...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I guess I hit a nerve.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> What outdated government managed system, the public schools? Basic education is outdated?
> 
> When this country was being settled and a new community was established, the first things built were a church and a school. Public education is not a bad idea, it just needs to be done better.
> 
> ...


How many in the 12th grade now days can back count change from a ten dollar bill .How many can balance a check book . Most those old schools were payed for by the neighborhood folks not Gov and for sure no union . 

Many now graduating don't know how to pour tinkel out of a boot with the directions on the heel .:shrug:

http://collegeinsurrection.com/2013/03/80-of-graduating-nyc-high-school-students-cant-read/


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> How many in the 12th grade now days can back count change from a ten dollar bill .How many can balance a check book . Most those old schools were payed for by the neighborhood folks not Gov and for sure no union .
> 
> Many now graduating don't know how to pour tinkel out of a boot with the directions on the heel .:shrug:
> 
> http://collegeinsurrection.com/2013/03/80-of-graduating-nyc-high-school-students-cant-read/


The checkbook, I would call that the parent's job and not the school's. 

And I don't like to be rude, but since you haven't cut me any slack in this thread, I'm going to go ahead and point out that your English skills in your post above do not exactly make for a ringing endorsement of the education of the past, either.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> The checkbook, I would call that the parent's job and not the school's.
> 
> And I don't like to be rude, but since you haven't cut me any slack in this thread, I'm going to go ahead and point out that your English skills in your post above do not exactly make for a ringing endorsement of the education of the past, either.


Glad you caught that my major in school was skipping . In those days graduating meant a possible trip to Vietnam .Also I went thirty years or more with little need of much communication ,never typed a word till son got me this computer .So I am totally self taught .I do know the difference in home and house as I see many don't ,but have the manners to not comment . And for the record it an't a hot water heater is is a plane water heater ,if the water was hot there is no need to heat it . :thumb:


----------



## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> If you don't like how things are going in your local schools, then join the PTA, run for the school board or at least show up for meetings. The world is run by the people who show up! Any school district could benefit from more parental involvement.


I'm trying to keep from laughing. Let me tell you a story.

I had a friend at work who's wife was a school teacher. He kept telling me I needed to run for school board - and I was always like "Why would I want to do that?" He kept on me for several years and then I started to think "Why not? My son is in school and if I can make a difference to give the students a better education and spend the taxpayer's money wisely, why not?"

So I ran and was elected. I was told before I ran how they only met a once a month and the meetings were usually only 1 - 1 1/2 hours long. Well yes, you had once a month meetings, but then you also had interviews when hiring teachers, principals, counselors, and other positions. Get an English teacher, math teacher, and science teacher that retired and that meant interviews 3 different evenings with interviews lasting for each position 2 - 3 hours.

The amount of time required to properly get prepared for a meeting was unreal. All kinds of papers, reports, bills, etc to read through. Then you had the different other things - somebody had to go to the Intermediate Unit's board meetings and the vocational board meetings.

Add in any disciplinary issues for either students or employees and that's another meeting.

When I first got on the board, the whole board was a diverse group of individuals, but all were conservative. As board members terms were up and they didn't seek re-election, that meant new board members coming on. Our once conservative group changed to far left or far right money spending group.

I served 2 four year terms, and I can say the first 6 years were enjoyable. As the board changed, so did my enjoyment and add in a Superintendent that I didn't see eye to eye with, and the enjoyment level decreased even more.

I ran for a third term but lost by 11 votes.

I learned that everyone protected each other - teachers would not report other teachers, the Vice Principal covered the Principal's butt, the Principal covered the Vice Principal's and Superintendent's butts. You were only told the information they wanted you to hear.

The community and parents were only concerned with sports. When other issues were at the board meeting no one was there, but is something is wrong with a sport's program, the room is full.

Pennsylvania has the largest teacher's union around. The amount of salary, benefits, & perks is unreal. 

Towards the end of my term, the board consisted of "Yes" people. They approved what the Superintendent wanted and what the Principals wanted - not because it was better for the students, but better for the employees.

There are very excellent, dedicated people that work at the schools, but the majority are there for themselves - bigger paychecks, bigger benefits, better perks and could care less about the students or education.

I don't regret the 8 year's I served, I hope I did make a difference, but I missed out on a lot of family time and events.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> The checkbook, I would call that the parent's job and not the school's.
> 
> And I don't like to be rude, but since you haven't cut me any slack in this thread, I'm going to go ahead and point out that your English skills in your post above do not exactly make for a ringing endorsement of the education of the past, either.


That seemed a little mean. I never seen you be mean. Bad grammar intended, cause it rhymed.


----------



## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I graduated in 05, and the school did teach us how to write checks and balance accounts. It was in administrative management class. Only 435 people were in my high school, so I'm assuming that they probably taught the kids even more about it in the bigger schools. Surely they're still teaching the kids that! I think the schools are trying to teach, but most kids just don't care.
And my seven year old daughter can already give change back from a ten dollar bill, they've been teaching all the second graders about money this year.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Here's the application for admittance. http://www.thalesacademy.org/siteres.aspx?resid=65581b10-5297-4584-83f2-f10706e64eb3. You can make your own judgement on how the answers to the questions will be used. It does seem that it might be cheaper to educate a group of students who have no physical, learning or discipline issues. It might also be easier to achieve higher test scores than public schools which must, by law, provide educational opportunities to all of these groups.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

handymama said:


> I graduated in 05, and the school did teach us how to write checks and balance accounts. It was in administrative management class. Only 435 people were in my high school, so I'm assuming that they probably taught the kids even more about it in the bigger schools. Surely they're still teaching the kids that! I think the schools are trying to teach, but most kids just don't care.
> And my seven year old daughter can already give change back from a ten dollar bill, they've been teaching all the second graders about money this year.


Was that 1905 or 2005?


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

HDRider said:


> That seemed a little mean. I never seen you be mean. Bad grammar intended, cause it rhymed.


He's been mean to me. I have the cigarette burns to prove it. He's just never been mean to Jim before.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> He's been mean to me. I have the cigarette burns to prove it. He's just never been mean to Jim before.


She...


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

HDRider said:


> She...


Are you implying MOcows is a woman? What the heck is she doing out of the milking parlor then?


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Sawmill Jim said:


> How many in the 12th grade now days can back count change from a ten dollar bill .How many can balance a check book . Most those old schools were payed for by the neighborhood folks not Gov and for sure no union .
> 
> Many now graduating don't know how to pour tinkel out of a boot with the directions on the heel .:shrug:
> 
> http://collegeinsurrection.com/2013/03/80-of-graduating-nyc-high-school-students-cant-read/


When were public schools last paid for by the neighborhood folks? .

Jim


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sawmill Jim, I apologize for insulting your writing.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> Sawmill Jim, I apologize for insulting your writing.


Thanks all is good . If it get up to three fingers it might improve :thumb:

Last time schools were paid by communities was before the Gov thought they could do a better job and that there was tons of money to be had .

Last school built near here it amazed me that the superintendent of the county schools just happened to own the perfect land to build on . Of course he sold it to them at a discounted price of three time local land value .:thumb:

Some Mennonites near here built a school, pretty large one at that for a few thousand dollars compared to what the county would spend for just the architect drawing of a county school.:hammer:


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> I agree totally. One family here has 11 kids. Costs the taxpayer $110,000 per year to educate them. That's the system for ya, and some people use it for all its worth. And we whine about a single mom getting food stamps.


Hopefully they will be paying your Social Security and medicare benefits.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Hopefully they will be paying your Social Security and medicare benefits.


Do you think they will ever pay back the money the citizens have invested in their education?


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> Hopefully they will be paying your Social Security and medicare benefits.


I hope not, I want those programs to end. But if they are like the average American, they will do everything possible to minimize their tax burden. Worryingly about us old geezers won't even be on their radar. And which way is it? Does a SS recipient earn his "benefit" from what he's been forced to pay in his whole life or do the future generations pay for it?


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> I hope not, I want those programs to end. But if they are like the average American, they will do everything possible to minimize their tax burden. Worryingly about us old geezers won't even be on their radar. And which way is it? Does a SS recipient earn his "benefit" from what he's been forced to pay in his whole life or do the future generations pay for it?


Can't speak for anyone else but I didn't have a choice if I paid in to SS. That is an agreement that was forced on me. When I am able to collect on SS I will take it gladly. Why should I not? It was forced on me but some people think I should not want the people who forced it on me to stand up to the deal they made.


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

bowdonkey said:


> I hope not, I want those programs to end. But if they are like the average American, they will do everything possible to minimize their tax burden. Worryingly about us old geezers won't even be on their radar. And which way is it? Does a SS recipient earn his "benefit" from what he's been forced to pay in his whole life or do the future generations pay for it?


The answer to your question is both. A recipient earned his benefits. The money he paid into the system was invested in special governments bonds that future tax payers will have to pay back.

Jim


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Jim Bunton said:


> The answer to your question is both. A recipient earned his benefits. The money he paid into the system was invested in special governments bonds that future tax payers will have to pay back.
> 
> Jim


In other words, our politicians have taken the money we sent in and replaced them with an unsigned IOU.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

pancho said:


> In other words, our politicians have taken the money we sent in and replaced them with an unsigned IOU.


Actually worse than that. They take the money in the SS lock box and transfer it to the general fund, leaving an IOU in the SS lock box.

Government bonds fund government (our) debt.


----------



## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

pancho said:


> People who have kids should shoulder the expense of educating the kids. Why put the load on people who choose not to have kids?


 Or who choose to educate at home or in private schools and still pay for education through their property taxes.


----------



## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> Hopefully they will be paying your Social Security and medicare benefits.


Hope is a pretty weak thing to plan around. Instead of hoping that the kids "return the favor" I could (theoretically) keep the money and use it to take care of myself in retirement.


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

pancho said:


> Do you think they will ever pay back the money the citizens have invested in their education?


I don't know if any individual will pay back what an education costs, but over all yes it is financially beneficial to the country to pay for education for everyone, college should also be government funded at least by very low interest loans.

Jim


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

pancho said:


> In other words, our politicians have taken the money we sent in and replaced them with an unsigned IOU.


If you want to call them unsigned IOUs that is fine, but it is similar to all other debt owed by the government. If it hadn't been borrowed from SS it would have been borrowed else where.

Jim


----------



## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

pancho said:


> People who have kids should shoulder the expense of educating the kids. Why put the load on people who choose not to have kids? If you can't take care of your kids don't have them.


We have sub par schools here as well, so my kids go to a private school. It's our responsibility and we pay it because we value education. 

To your point about paying for your own kids education, I feel the same way about food, housing, clothing, medical, and every other necessity a child needs. By caring for your kids yourself, I feel they learn an important lesson from their parents, it's called responsibility. Unfortunately there's to many who don't believe in taking care of theirs.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

wes917 said:


> We have sub par schools here as well, so my kids go to a private school. It's our responsibility and we pay it because we value education.
> 
> To your point about paying for your own kids education, I feel the same way about food, housing, clothing, medical, and every other necessity a child needs. By caring for your kids yourself, I feel they learn an important lesson from their parents, it's called responsibility. Unfortunately there's to many who don't believe in taking care of theirs.


^^^^^ this^^^^^


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

What you are saying is true in a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world. Do you really want children to find themselves as adults looking for a job with little or no education because their parents did not see the value in putting the effort into making sure their children were properly educated? How do you see that being a good thing? If we still have a welfare system they are going to be supported for life because they won't be qualified for most jobs. If we end the welfare system many of them will be supported by the prison system because crime will be one of their few chooses. Education is important and parents like you are not the ones whose children are not getting educated.

Jim


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Jim Bunton said:


> What you are saying is true in a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world. Do you really want *children to find themselves as adults looking for a job with little or no education because their parents did not see the value in putting the effort into making sure their children were properly educated?* How do you see that being a good thing? If we still have a welfare system they are going to be supported for life because they won't be qualified for most jobs. If we end the welfare system many of them will be supported by the prison system because crime will be one of their few chooses. Education is important and parents like you are not the ones whose children are not getting educated.
> 
> Jim


Don't we have that anyway?


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Jim Bunton said:


> I don't know if any individual will pay back what an education costs, but over all yes it is financially beneficial to the country to pay for education for everyone, college should also be government funded at least by very low interest loans.
> 
> Jim


How is it beneficial to pay for everyone . Some leave 12th grade and still can't read ,then to top it off those people may of distracted those that really wanted to learn .:grumble:

That is why I think if the Gov will just hand over the cash they are going to spend anyway to those that really want a education can go where they can get one . 

The title Dept Of Ed has become a paradox :thumb:


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Jim Bunton said:


> If you want to call them unsigned IOUs that is fine, but it is similar to all other debt owed by the government. If it hadn't been borrowed from SS it would have been borrowed else where.
> 
> Jim


That is very true. Our govt. has to borrow money to pay the interest on the money they have already borrowed. Not a cent goes against the principal. How long do you think a country can do this?


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

pancho said:


> That is very true. Our govt. has to borrow money to pay the interest on the money they have already borrowed. Not a cent goes against the principal. How long do you think a country can do this?


They have outlasted my expectations already :shrug: I think lots of people are in for a rude awaking :runforhills:


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sawmill Jim said:


> They have outlasted my expectations already :shrug: I think lots of people are in for a rude awaking :runforhills:


I think fear of our military has been the only thing that has kept the U.S. afloat for many years.


----------



## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

Jim Bunton said:


> What you are saying is true in a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world. Do you really want children to find themselves as adults looking for a job with little or no education because their parents did not see the value in putting the effort into making sure their children were properly educated? How do you see that being a good thing? If we still have a welfare system they are going to be supported for life because they won't be qualified for most jobs. If we end the welfare system many of them will be supported by the prison system because crime will be one of their few chooses. Education is important and parents like you are not the ones whose children are not getting educated.
> 
> Jim



If we stopped rewarding "parents" for having kids they can't take care of I believe a lot of it would end. When your bennies increase because you have a kid people have them for profit. Not really the nurturing environment kids need, and kids from "parents" like this are ending up in the system anyway.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

pancho said:


> I think fear of our military has been the only thing that has kept the U.S. afloat for many years.


Yep look up petro dollar .That was the deal where a country sold oil in dollars only .In return the US would look the other way on most anything that country did plus give military support :thumb: Any dissenters got a real lesson :thumb:


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

pancho said:


> I think fear of our military has been the only thing that has kept the U.S. afloat for many years.


During the last economic collapse when no one was sure how bad it would get the U S was able to sell 4 week 0% t bills We sold out. That had nothing to do with our military. That was the belief that if it all went to hell the U S would be the last to go down. 

Jim


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Jim Bunton said:


> During the last economic collapse when no one was sure how bad it would get the U S was able to sell 4 week 0% t bills We sold out. That had nothing to do with our military. That was the belief that if it all went to hell the U S would be the last to go down.
> 
> Jim


Just goes to show you that there are a lot of fools in this world.


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Sawmill Jim said:


> How is it beneficial to pay for everyone . Some leave 12th grade and still can't read ,then to top it off those people may of distracted those that really wanted to learn .:grumble:
> 
> That is why I think if the Gov will just hand over the cash they are going to spend anyway to those that really want a education can go where they can get one .
> 
> The title Dept Of Ed has become a paradox :thumb:


How is it beneficial for the government to just hand over cash Those that really want an education can get one in the public school system in most areas of the country. Right now private schools have to offer a better education then public schools or they wouldn't be able to fill their class rooms. If we end public schools and then give cash so people can send there kids where they want private schools can start offering an inferior education and those same parents that don't care now still won't care.

Jim


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

pancho said:


> Just goes to show you that there are a lot of fools in this world.


These weren't fools they were investors looking for a safe place to park their money until they could decide what was going to happen next. You don't stash millions under your bed.

Jim


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Jim Bunton said:


> These weren't fools they were investors looking for a safe place to park their money until they could decide what was going to happen next. You don't stash millions under your bed.
> 
> Jim


They were not investors if they gave possession of their money and didn't get anything out of it. Investors are those who expect to receive more than they put in. 0% interest and taking a chance of loosing isn't an investor, that is a fool.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

pancho said:


> They were not investors if they gave possession of their money and didn't get anything out of it. Investors are those who expect to receive more than they put in. 0% interest and taking a chance of loosing isn't an investor, that is a fool.


Just curious, where do you invest your fortune?


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Jim Bunton said:


> How is it beneficial for the government to just hand over cash Those that really want an education can get one in the public school system in most areas of the country. Right now private schools have to offer a better education then public schools or they wouldn't be able to fill their class rooms. If we end public schools and then give cash so people can send there kids where they want private schools can start offering an inferior education and those same parents that don't care now still won't care.
> 
> Jim


Good point but my understanding the Gov voucher don't fully cover the tuition , when most parents pay out of their own pockets most want to see something for their money . :thumb:


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Just curious, where do you invest your fortune?


I still make a good profit on what I have invested. Now I have enough to last me the rest of my life and am not really interested in making money.
You can bet I never invested money for 0% interest.


----------



## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

pancho said:


> I still make a good profit on what I have invested. Now I have enough to last me the rest of my life and am not really interested in making money.
> You can bet I never invested money for 0% interest.


Most people haven't. I don't think they look at it so much as an investment as a safe place to keep there money while they decided if the banks were going to lock there doors how far the stock market was going down, what companies would fold if the banks did shut down. The fact that under those circumstances investors, and foreign governments looked to U S treasury bills shows many disagree with you as to the safety of that investment.

Jim


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Jim Bunton said:


> During the last economic collapse when no one was sure how bad it would get the U S was able to sell 4 week 0% t bills We sold out. That had nothing to do with our military. That was the belief that if it all went to hell the U S would be the last to go down.
> 
> Jim


There is some truth to that but it still doesn't give our elected representatives an excuse for managing our money so poorly.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Schools have become a big money pit at all levels .


I am all for educating children. But public schools are a huge money pit that waste money on many things other than teaching children.


----------



## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

Be careful with this logic. I'm not saying that private schools are bad, because they absolutely aren't, but not all private schools are great either. They often have more limitations than public schools and sometimes struggle to attract the best and brightest teachers.

I'm a teacher and I am good at my job. I've gotten awards and I get results as measured by test scores and feedback from students and parents. Last year I decided to hunt for a new job because I was at that point in my career where I had gone as far as I could go where I was and it was time to seek out new opportunities. I interviewed several places and got three job offers. Two were from public schools, one was from a private school that people tend to hold in high regard as a great place to send kids. 

I wanted to work at the private school because I agree that private education is most likely the future of American education and I am also very anti-union. But you know what? I couldn't reasonably accept the private school job, because the total compensation package was about $25,000 less than one of the public schools. That $25,000 figure was made up of inferior health insurance and a very weak retirement package. They were willing to match the salary of my highest offer in order to get me, but the benefits would have been lacking. I've got a family, so I took the public school offer instead.

Teachers are not the saviors of humanity, we're professionals who offer a service in exchange for a wage. Think of us in the same way that you think of nurses. Ultimately, we're helping people by doing what we do, but just like anyone other human being we do what we do in order to provide for our families. Some of us are better at it than others and consequently cost more to employ, as is the case with most professionals. It would be wise to consider that as you push for cost saving measures such as privatizing public education. Schools that serve wealthy clientele and charge higher tuition rates will be able to attract better teachers by virtue of higher salaries and better benefits.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

V-NH said:


> Be careful with this logic. I'm not saying that private schools are bad, because they absolutely aren't, but not all private schools are great either. They often have more limitations than public schools and sometimes struggle to attract the best and brightest teachers.
> 
> I'm a teacher and I am good at my job. I've gotten awards and I get results as measured by test scores and feedback from students and parents. Last year I decided to hunt for a new job because I was at that point in my career where I had gone as far as I could go where I was and it was time to seek out new opportunities. I interviewed several places and got three job offers. Two were from public schools, one was from a private school that people tend to hold in high regard as a great place to send kids.
> 
> ...



You bring up some good points. I don't doubt a word of what you're saying, I come from a family of educators both public and private.

The main reason driving the private charter schools is the taxpayers' desire for their money to be wisely spent.
I know for a fact that about 50% of public school budgets are spent on "administrative" costs.
That means for every teacher's paycheck there's one for a principal, vice principal(s), guidance counselor(s), maintenance crews and their managers, a whole staff in the county office all the way up to the superintendent and school board. I think the bus drivers would have to be included as well. All together, none of them actually teaching the kids.
I also know that in that 50% there exists a lot of dead weight.

Another sore point is the cost of building new schools.
No one wants our kids in dilapidated, unsafe buildings, but when cheaper alternatives are available they aren't even considered. Next time you drive by a shopping center that's gone belly up, look at how easily a it could be retrofitted as a school. 
Centrally located, huge parking lot so the buses and minivans with single drivers don't have to spill out into the street, good lighting, probably a huge food storage and prep area, easily partitioned into classrooms, and already fitted with industrial electric, water and a/c, even fire sprinklers.
And you're going to purchase land and build brand new instead?
Why?

I'll tell you why.

Don't take this the wrong way because it isn't meant to be. I'm the first to agree that *good* public employees _deserve_ a good benefit package. Dealing with the public is no slice of heaven, lol.

But the same reason the public school offered you a better package is the same reason public schools are expensive to run.
They don't usually HAVE to cut costs, they know the taxpayer funds are there and take it for granted, where a private company is just the opposite - always looking to save a nickel.

If they want a new school, the politicians will raise the property taxes or pass a revenue bond to pay for it. Along the way every Tom, Dick and Harry gets in for a slice of the pie.
If the public sector would take some pointers from the private sector, prune the dead wood, reuse and recycle, manage well......they might be able to give a good showing in this contest.:idea:


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Be careful with this logic. I'm not saying that private schools are bad, because they absolutely aren't, but not all private schools are great either. They often have more limitations than public schools and sometimes struggle to attract the best and brightest teachers.


DBF attended a Christian elementary school. His parents were very religious and wanted him to be schooled in a religious environment. 

The school only went through the 8th grade, and when he transferred to a public school, he tested so poorly that he was held back a grade, and eventually dropped out. To this day, his spelling is atrocious and he can barely do math, even though he's very intelligent. He simply didn't receive an adequate education.

He learned all about Jesus, though. :facepalm:


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> DBF attended a Christian elementary school. His parents were very religious and wanted him to be schooled in a religious environment.
> 
> The school only went through the 8th grade, and when he transferred to a public school, he tested so poorly that he was held back a grade, and eventually dropped out. To this day, his spelling is atrocious and he can barely do math, even though he's very intelligent. He simply didn't receive an adequate education.
> 
> He learned all about Jesus, though. :facepalm:


You just never stop.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I think there is a public perception that private schools are automatically superior to public ones, but that isn't always the case. Some charter schools struggle as well. 

In all cases -- public AND private -- parents need to be engaged, and pay attention to what their children are learning, and not simply assume all is well as long as the child is getting good grades.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Each child has different educational needs. I can't spell yet my son who left public school in the fifth grade a failure and was homeschool by an idiot in spelling and a failure at writing resumed his education at 18 in the public school and but for his hand writing is a fantastic writer. children develop on different time tables forcing them into a mold gains nothing. He is still tring to lean to drive at past 20. Most of his peers have a license to drive at 14. I trust he will be a driver soon.


My son's failure at schooling is not any teachers fault. Willow did he want to Learn, was he ready to Learn.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Well yeah, and he has an IQ in the 140 range as well. But the school he went to was a parochial one that was All About Jesus. Now, the Bible may have something to offer in terms of mythology or literature, but it makes a lousy science textbook. :facepalm:

And it's possible for even a bright student to struggle if they simply _haven't been taught_. I experienced this myself when I changed school districts in the middle of the first grade. I went from a small country school where the teacher _taught me how to twiddle my thumbs_ to keep myself occupied when I finished my work ahead of the rest of the class (now, there's a useful skill!) to a suburban district where the kids were learning to read by way of phonics and were light-years ahead of me. :teehee:

By the end of the school year, I had caught up to the rest of the class, but I made the transition in only the first grade, at the start of my education. Had I stayed in the backwards country school for a full eight years, and then transferred to a more up-to-date one, I probably would have been held back, too.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Whoa, thanks for the absolute slap in the face. I see you do not believe in tolerance nor compassion. It seems that you probably use this example to tout your ability to exist without a God. And... in case you did not notice, there sure are a lot of "I"s in your post. I know of a large number of people that went through a Christian School and excelled in many aspects of life. Your Cherry-Picked instance does not weigh very heavily upon Christian Schooling...


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm sure there are some excellent parochial schools; sadly; DBF didn't have the good fortune to attend one. It's a shame that his parents paid extra for him to receive such a substandard education! 

But once again, in any case -- public or private -- parents, pay attention to what your children are actually learning, and don't assume all is well simply because they're getting good grades!


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Shine said:


> Whoa, thanks for the absolute slap in the face. I see you do not believe in tolerance nor compassion. It seems that you probably use this example to tout your ability to exist without a God. And... in case you did not notice, there sure are a lot of "I"s in your post. I know of a large number of people that went through a Christian School and excelled in many aspects of life. Your Cherry-Picked instance does not weigh very heavily upon Christian Schooling...


And I've known countless people who've gone through public schools across the country who have recieved excellent educations and gone on to successful careers and lives but judging from many of the comments here all public education is lousy, wasteful and indoctrinaire.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> Well yeah, and he has an IQ in the 140 range as well. But the school he went to was a parochial one that was All About Jesus. Now, the Bible may have something to offer in terms of mythology or literature, but it makes a lousy science textbook. :facepalm:


Huh, my experience has been just the opposite. There are fundamental scientific principles throughout the Book, some of them are just now being rediscovered, because as Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the sun."

He talks of planets and constellations and the fact that the earth is not the center of the universe, contrary to what the Pope(s) said, Christians can be biblically illiterate too.

He tells Job about His creation of the dinosaurs with a very accurate description of a Brontosaurus.
No where does He say the earth is 5,000 years old, in fact just the opposite.

He gives excellent dietary advice that our great, modern minds are just now discovering.

There is excellent agricultural advice on planting crops.

All of this aligns with scientific facts which make sense, the Creator of the universe would be the Master of science knowledge, no?

But maybe you're right, preventing kids from learning the best wisdom in the world will probably make them better students. That seems to be the empirical evidence of our school system since the Bible was taken OUT of schools.......:umno:


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

An IQ is just a number it will always require effort and work. How many criminals have hi IQ's. Got a nephew......started college be for 12.....past thirty now. And his whole life is dungeon and dragons. Applying knowledge is harder than finding an excuse.


----------

