# another LED question



## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

currently working for a person who knows a lot about architectural engineering, he teach's it and has traveled many places studying and teaching, a very nice man. 

As I'm remodeling his home lighting is a part of it and i have worked with him before. I have tried a few times to get the lighting nailed down, but he's reluctant to commit and I have mentioned LED's more than once. He finally explained his aversion to them and it has to do with studies that show a correlation between LED's and aggressive behavior.

I see they are being used more and more in public places. I also see people becoming more aggressive.

Do you think there is anything to this? The deal for me is lighting (I know this for a fact) can effect the way my work is perceived and obviously I'd like the best results. If I'm causing an aggressive reaction I'd rather avoid it. 

On the flip side I have also worked for someone who used to be an engineer and left that to become a doc who loves the LED. I must say between the 2 of them the Doc is the more unstable and emotional of the 2. The first has many reasons to be agitated, the little woman for starters, but he handles it amazingly well.

I like the LED myself as I am rough on things and the LED takes the abuse well. The power consumption is also very attractive.

Now that I'm aware of the possibilities I'll pay more attention, still, do you think there is any truth to it? Lights are used in torture.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

You have used the word LED many times, but the word LED doesn't define much about the light other than the type of light it is. 

LED comes in many sizes, shapes, cluster sizes and different color (temperature) ratings.

Many "LED" bulbs are actually 20-30 LED tightly packed to form a single light.

Issue to look out for "wattage" marketing likes to say one bulb is a "60 watt equivalent" but want you want to compare is lumans. You also need to look at color temperature. How white/bright the bulb really is. Most of the "cheap" bulbs are 1800 to 2200K, For me that is unusable light. The color is all wrong and no way near bright enough to use. I prefer 5000K + and might consider 3000K for a few uses.

Even with the high priced bulbs I have yet to see a bulb that will last as long as the advertising says it will when used in a typical light fixture.


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## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

Gary in ohio said:


> You have used the word LED many times, but the word LED doesn't define much about the light other than the type of light it is.
> 
> LED comes in many sizes, shapes, cluster sizes and different color (temperature) ratings.
> 
> ...


kelvins were discussed and if I remember right he said around 3000 was good and what I was to look for. Only recently have they come in different... as you mentioned. He was opposed to kelvins as high as 5000.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Personally, I don't think LED lighting has to do with aggressive or unstable behavior.

I would be more concerned with growth hormones in most of everything we eat.
We all know that hormones control growth, mood, ability to concentrate, ect.
And the hormones pumped into livestock don't breakdown with low cooking heat.

BPA, the stuff used in virtually every metal can as a liner, and most lids as a sealer,
Was originally devolved as birth control but was so unstable and caused side effects it was withdrawn as birth control,
But so cheap to produce it found other uses.

Artificial sweeteners have some seriously bad side effects, from triggering migraines, causing liver damage, interrupting brain chemestry to a link with altzhimers disease,
We are over 5 million altzhimers victims, and the healthcare system is ramping up for 10 million by the end of the nex decade.

Society influances are also causing issues,
Everything you see in media/cenima is remarkably violent,
Disjointed, disorgnized, and just plain ditzy is tolerated, even encouraged.
Style over substance is valued for some reason.

There is a reason I grow most of my own food,
Trade for or buy locally grown meat.
-------------

Wattage is power consumption.
Lumens is light output.
Spectrum of the light has a few different ratings.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

beenaround said:


> currently working for a person who knows a lot about architectural engineering, he teach's it and has traveled many places studying and teaching, a very nice man.
> 
> As I'm remodeling his home lighting is a part of it and i have worked with him before. I have tried a few times to get the lighting nailed down, but he's reluctant to commit and I have mentioned LED's more than once. He finally explained his aversion to them and it has to do with studies that show a correlation between LED's and aggressive behavior.
> 
> ...


Honestly? No. Not only no, but HECK NO.

I just did a search on LED lighting and aggressive behavior. There are no studies that show up other than the effect of various COLOR and INTENSITY lighting in poultry production. Even those studies appear to have mixed results that would indicate randomness and experimenter bias more than hard correlations. Note is also made that birds perceive light differently than mammals.

In general, ANY light that is low in intensity and heavy in the red end of the spectrum is going to tend to be soporific and calming to animals that hunt during daylight hours. High intensity and more bluish lights will tend to increase activity and _possibly_ aggression given other stressors. Nocturnals may not experience any effect or even have a negative correlation.


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## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

Well, a little back ground on the guy. He was on a small panel brought to Spain to give a recommendation. One of the old chapels there had a hole in the ceiling, but not in the roof. A camera was put through the 17th century ceiling, a 16th century ceiling was under it. He was there to give his O on what to do. 

I don't think a google search is going to show much of what he's been exposed to and he's in his 60's and well traveled.

Something to keep in mind, stuff happens all the time. And the same people who gave us all the stuff J.H. mentioned are also behind the lighting revolution. 

Thanks for your take/takes on it.


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## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

Harry Chickpea said:


> In general, ANY light that is low in intensity and heavy in the red end of the spectrum is going to tend to be soporific and calming to animals that hunt during daylight hours. High intensity and more bluish lights will tend to increase activity and _possibly_ aggression given other stressors. Nocturnals may not experience any effect or even have a negative correlation.


 as a hunter I tend to agree and then I did a google search on something to scare off the critters that attack my chickens at night, guess what I found and I didn't try it.

They sell a set of glowing red lights that are supposed to be the eye's of a predator. The idea is they will scare off other predators.

The guy did mention the color of lighting and there relation to kelvins. He was opposed to LED because they were so high on the kelvin scale. They have changed.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Mimicking a predator in shape or color is common,
Its evolutionary instinct, like people jumping when they see anything that can be mistaken for a snake,
Evloution has taught is to have a instinct response to snakes up close and personal,
Realistic looking eyes enhances the effect.

We are genetically programmed to look for constants, like eyes, or something that kind of looks like a 'Face' for the same reason.
People see 'Faces' in everything from clouds to mud pies...

Eyes are something we key off of,
Horizontal doesn't happen in nature very often,
And two 'Holes' that are horizontal are easier to spot than other features.

As for LED lighting being brought to us by big chemical/big food is patently false.
Light is light...
If you believe there is light that makes 'Normal' humans agressive or what ever,
Then NEVER go out in direct sunlight,
Sunlight contains all spectrums, from infra red to ultra violet...
Full spectrums of all ranges, visible or not.

Light bulb companies are NOT poisoning your light with hormone/mood altering synthetic chemicals.
They are NOT producing synthetic persistent toxins in huge quantities and spreading them on EVERYTHING...

I have real issues with migraine headaches, often light induced.
That's NOT 'Normal'...
I do have to watch what the cycle rate in CF bulbs is, slower cycling bulbs will produce a detectable flicker/strobe effect that will trigger migraines in my case.
I don't have issues with faster cycling rate bulbs.

I don't have any issue with continous LED bulbs,
But the 'Super Efficient' bulbs cycle (very quickly) to conserve energy and increase life span.
Again, I'm not 'Normal' and I can detect the cycling in some LED lights.

I simply buy non-cycling LED lights, very high rate CF cycling bulbs and don't have issues.
(With the exception of he external alarm system alerts, you won't find a 'Strobing' light on my place since I can detect very high rates of cycling)

Enhancing the predator/prey instinct genetically programmed into all higher life forms,
And glass eyes with NOT LIGHTED will do that,
And trying to equate 'Light' to increased agressive behavior, there is no link & no connection...

The 'Creep Out' effect of a painting that seems to 'Watch' you is prey instinct kicking in,
The light source in the room has nothing to do with it...
Natural, natural filtered, reflected, artificial incondecent, CF, LED or reflected from any of he artificial sources, doesn't matter one bit...
The prey instinct would trigger in ANY light,
And in NO light, just KNOWING the picture is 'Looking' at you will trigger the prey instinct...

No light at all, you can be dreaming about someone and the prey instinct will trigger.
You simply can't blame 'Light', or anything that produces light,
For your genetic predispositions...

COLOR (Not Light) can alter your mood.
Again, its your genetic disposition and your personal experences, not the light source that produced the photons in the first place...

I can't find any credible studies that connect LED light and aggression.
The only place I've found anything at all written about it is the tin foil hat/conspiracy sites,
And *IF* they give a reference (only one did), the 'Scientific Paper' cited didnt exist, and neither did the university cited in the article...

There are TONS of studies on 'Color' & mood, 
Which is refracted light, changed fundamentally in spectrum when photons strike and change wavelength to be precieved as 'Color'...

Didn't seem to matter what the common light source was that produced 'White' light.


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## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> Mimicking a predator in shape or color is common,
> Its evolutionary instinct, like people jumping when they see anything that can be mistaken for a snake,
> Evloution has taught is to have a instinct response to snakes up close and personal,
> Realistic looking eyes enhances the effect.
> ...


first off if a customer says x bothers them I listen, the customer is always right. It has served me well. This customer is not the typical customer, his occupation is this. I'd like to tap into something others don't know or understand, good for business and life.

I use red lights to make my way through the woods in the wee hours while hunting, I'm real good at it. If the red lights were an effective deterrent I think I'd know it after hunting all these years. 

I ended up using 3000k LED's per his request, he was happy.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Honestly? No. Not only no, but HECK NO.
> 
> I just did a search on LED lighting and aggressive behavior. There are no studies that show up other than the effect of various COLOR and INTENSITY lighting in poultry production. Even those studies appear to have mixed results that would indicate randomness and experimenter bias more than hard correlations. Note is also made that birds perceive light differently than mammals.
> 
> In general, ANY light that is low in intensity and heavy in the red end of the spectrum is going to tend to be soporific and calming to animals that hunt during daylight hours. High intensity and more bluish lights will tend to increase activity and _possibly_ aggression given other stressors. Nocturnals may not experience any effect or even have a negative correlation.



I think that is the difference, color and intensity.
LED's tend to be a little brighter and the white colors a little harsh.
I think if the color and intensity is changed and diffused with the right fixture, lenses, shading etc. the effects will be positive rather than negative.
Just my opinion, but I think there are enough studies to support it.


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## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> I think that is the difference, color and intensity.
> LED's tend to be a little brighter and the white colors a little harsh.
> I think if the color and intensity is changed and diffused with the right fixture, lenses, shading etc. the effects will be positive rather than negative.
> Just my opinion, but I think there are enough studies to support it.


I think you're on to it. I once wired a makeup center for a woman who thought she wanted a lot of light. Saw her later and asked about it, she said she didn't like what she saw and removed some of the bulbs.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I did retail for many years,
You tell the customer what they _NEED_,
Then sell them what they _WANT_...

Doesn't matter if its totally unsuited to their intended application...

What that guy 'Believes' and Supportable Facts are two entirely different things,
And the customer is always right when they are holding cash!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

beenaround said:


> Well, a little back ground on the guy. He was on a small panel brought to Spain to give a recommendation. One of the old chapels there had a hole in the ceiling, but not in the roof. A camera was put through the 17th century ceiling, a 16th century ceiling was under it. He was there to give his O on what to do.
> 
> I don't think a google search is going to show much of what he's been exposed to and he's in his 60's and well traveled.
> 
> ...


That sounds like more a preservation issue. Could be the intensity of light in different ends of the spectrum effects fragile pigments or materials differently. 
The only Kelvin units I ever heard of have to do with heat rather than visible light. But I don't know lighting at all.


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