# Looking for draft sized wagon



## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

We are looking for a draft sized, multi-purpose wagon, and I thought I'd check here to see if anyone is offering one for sale, or knows someone who is. Our ideal would be a style similar to the Pioneer Classic wagon, with hard wood built on 3 ton gear (will consider 6 ton), with road-ready pneumatic tires, brakes, lights, rear benches, and must be in good, safe, usable condition. We could consider less and add on for the right price. We are located in central IL, but could possibly arrange pickup in most of the US. Please pm details and photos. Thanks!


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

5th wheel or auto-steer?

I don't have a line on one, per se, but have you checked the Draft Horse Stuff web site? http://www.drafthorsestuff.com/

You could also ask at the Rural Heritage teamster forum as well.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

Wow...showing my newbie status here! Of all the wagons I have looked at, all the dealers I have talked to, the clinics we have attended, and reading we have done, I have not come across the terms "5th wheel" or "auto steer" so I have no idea! :help:


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

With a 5th wheel wagon, the entire front axle pivots on a central point... the "fifth wheel". Many 5th wheel wagons (wagons, mind you, not buggies) are built with the deck high enough that the wheels can turn all the way underneath the deck and not hit anything. Makes for a super-tight turning radius. The big fancy draft horse hitch wagons, in shows, are 5th wheel.

Auto-steering is where the front wheels are mounted on spindles at either end of the front axle, and attached with tie rods to the bracket that receives the tongue. The axle remains in a fixed position, parallel to the rear axle, but when the horses pivot the tongue, the steering linkage makes the wheels turn. Most farm gears are auto-steer. I think that most of what Pioneer makes are auto-steer. Their buckboard is 5th wheel but off the top of my head I can't think of any others.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Auto-steer:


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

This one's a 5th wheel. See, at the front of the wagon, just under the green wagon body, there's some red framework that kind of tapers down to a neck? Then there's a couple of horizontal black bands, then more red pieces and then the wagon tongue and wheels and suspension. 

Well, the "neck" is the 5th wheel. Those two black bands are the edges of two thick plates of metal. They are greased. There is a bolt called the kingpin that is the central pivot point in the middle of those two plates. Everything above the two plates stays stationary, everything below the two plates pivots on the kingpin when the horses move the tongue.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I've found auto-steer to be more difficult to tow directly behind a truck at highway speeds. They tend to wander around. So if you think you might be moving it off the farm with a truck (say, hire out for hay rides or something), then having something that doesn't require a trailer is awfully useful.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Might be easiest to simply buy a hay wagon or running gear and make a bed to suit yourself. 
Horses can turn arounf a lot closer than a tractor, so in tight places, a 5th wheel setup is better. But if not properly set up, will be tippy in the front. Auto steer (hay wagons, etc) are common. Just don't turn too sharp. You could break the tongue that way.
I rigged up a long ash tongue to mount to a short tractor style tongue. I framed in the mounting points with steel, so I didn't have to drill holes in the wood tongue.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

OK, I know what you are talking about now, and have seen both. I am assuming we would want the auto-steer version, as we are newbies, and certainly prefer to reduce the "tip" probability as much as possible. At least for a while, we likely won't be doing many sharp turns. We also probably won't be towing behind a trailer in the near future either. Who knows 5 years from now, but for right now, we are looking for basics, safety, and multi-purpose. Hope that answers your original question!


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Hay wagons are tricky to retrofit brakes to (at least, anything with any stopping power) so that probably won't work for them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

jennigrey said:


> Hay wagons are tricky to retrofit brakes to (at least, anything with any stopping power) so that probably won't work for them.


Brakes? You have brakes? Never had that luxury.:help:
Could get a welder fashion brakes from a car on the hay wagon's spindles. Could use a car's rear axles as the back axle on a hay wagon and use the emergency brake cable as brake controller.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I have one wagon with brakes - a 5th wheel Shiloh wagon. My other two are built on farm gears and don't have brakes.

But the OP specified brakes.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

I sure like having brakes. They won't stop a wagon if they want to run, but they are nice when hitching and getting on a off. It sure is nice having a fifth wheel with a cutunder. Especially when starting out (cut under means the wheels will turn under the wagon, you can have fifth wheel but not nessicarly a cut under). If you get in a tight spot and you and or you horse are not good at backing, it will help you out of a tight spot. I had a 3 ton pioneer wagon with brakes that I built a box on. It would have worked out fine for you.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I like a brake for when young or elderly passengers are getting on or off the wagon. My horses (usually) stand very well, but the wagon can rock and move a bit just with the fussing of the passengers or if a horse kicks at a fly.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks all, we found one! Hope to pick it up tomorrow. It's a Pioneer Classic, red and shiny :banana: (not that I cared about color, but I'll take it!) It's nearly brand new, been used 3-4 times and hardly a scratch on it, all for a used price!


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

rod44 said:


> It sure is nice having a fifth wheel with a cutunder. Especially when starting out (cut under means the wheels will turn under the wagon, you can have fifth wheel but not nessicarly a cut under).


Small point, but "cut under" is a body style. When there is a space or "cut" in the underside of the vehicle body to allow the wheels to pass through. If you have tall back wheels and suspension, coupled with short front wheels, your fronts can pass all the way underneath the vehicle body without it being cut under.

This wagonette has a fifthwheel and is also cut under.










This one is fifth wheel and not cut under.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

And, just to complete the collection, this one IS cut-under, has a fifth wheel, but also has a reach.


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## rod44 (Jun 17, 2013)

This too is a fifth wheel but the wheels won't go under.








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