# Idaho rations health care statewide as COVID surge continues



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

COVID-19 surge forces health care rationing in parts of West


BOISE, Idaho (AP) — In another ominous sign about the spread of the delta variant, Idaho public health leaders on Thursday expanded health care rationing statewide and individual hospital systems in Alaska and Montana have enacted similar crisis standards amid a spike in the number of...




apnews.com





"BOISE, Idaho (AP) — Idaho public health leaders on Thursday expanded health care rationing statewide amid a massive increase in the number of coronavirus patients requiring hospitalization.

The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare made the announcement after St. Luke’s Health System, Idaho’s largest hospital network, on Wednesday asked state health leaders to allow “crisis standards of care” because the increase in COVID-19 patients has exhausted the state’s medical resources.

Crisis care standards mean that scarce resources like ICU beds will be allotted to the patients most likely to survive. Other patients will be treated with less effective methods or, in dire cases, given pain relief and other palliative care."


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And those hospitals are still firing personnel who refuse to participate in the great vaccine experiment.

Some Ohio hospitals are now moving to ration care too. They have the room for more patients but not the staff to care for those patients. 

Cases in school age children are rapidly increasing.






Governor DeWine, Ohio Children's Hospitals Association Appeal to School Districts to Require Masks


(COLUMBUS, Ohio)— Ohio Governor Mike DeWine today joined with the Ohio Children's Hospitals Association in a direct appeal to school superintendents to require masks for staff and students during the current surge of the coronavirus.




coronavirus.ohio.gov


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Fake news. Based on track record of poster.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> Fake news. Based on track record of poster.


Well, it was good of you to actually research it yourself. Not.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> Fake news. Based on track record of poster.


Confirmation bias?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The whole time they are blaming covid. Wrong. The blame lies squarely on the feet of those that sent their health care workers packing. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Just think, if they gave their Covid-19 patients Ivermectin, there wouldn't be a crisis.

I keep waiting for just one governor to stand up and be a hero.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't think in the middle of a pandemic was the best time to start firing nurses.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

wr said:


> I don't think in the middle of a pandemic was the best time to start firing nurses.


That is because you think, instead of playing a stupid game. The firing has already begun.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> That is because you think, instead of playing a stupid game. The firing has already begun.


Where? As far as I know, our local hospital system has not mandated the vaccine.
if they needed workers they could easily hire Washington medical staff who were terminated over the vaccine.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

are nurses being fired for refusing covid vaccine - Google Search


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> are nurses being fired for refusing covid vaccine - Google Search


isn’t this thread about Idaho? 
what did I miss?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

This is an article about protests in Idaho. Posted in JULY









Hundreds Against Vaccine Mandates Tell Hospitals "Shame On You"


A few hundred community members, including some nurses and doctors, rallied at the Idaho Capitol Thursday morning to oppose local hospitals forcing their workers to get a COVID-19 vaccine.




www.boisestatepublicradio.org


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> This is an article about protests in Idaho. Posted in JULY
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and not the case where I live.
and yet my county ws the first to start medical rationing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, some medical staff have been let go because of refusing to get vaccinated. Yes, hospitals are overrun because of citizens refusing to get vaccinated. 

Guess what, the hospitals would still be overrun even if the medical staff had not been let go because that number is not large and they have brought in traveling medical staff and military medical units.to replace them.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> This is an article about protests in Idaho. Posted in JULY
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kootenai Health does not mandate the COVID-19 vaccine for employees. We strongly encourage our employees to get the vaccine as we believe it is safe and effective

.





COVID-19







www.kh.org


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This hospital did not require vaccinations and still had to bring in traveling nurses and an army medical unit.



https://news.yahoo.com/hospitals-west-struggle-beds-critically-083011541.html



"Kootenai Health, a hospital in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, has already converted a conference room into an overflow Covid unit, started paying traveling nurses $250 an hour and brought in a military medical unit. The hospital received permission from the state to begin rationing care last week. That's all in response to the Covid surge that in recent weeks has taken over much of Idaho — a state with one of the nation's lowest vaccination rates. "


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Interviews with some hospital staff









Idaho Healthcare Shortage Revealed


Hospital workers reveal what's really happening on the inside.




kidotalkradio.com


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Interviews with some hospital staff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


again, there are no mandates at the main healthcare provider in northern Idaho and yet it was the first to start rationing. 
Do you get thta?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Interviews with some hospital staff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you read the entire thing, you will understand that those shortages were in place before any vaccine mandates. I live in an area of Wyoming ( 100 feet from the border of Idaho) where patients get transferred to Idaho all the time for medical procedures. This shortage has been in place for years and has gotten much worse with medical staff getting Covid and being ff work or just quitting because they can no longer take the overwork because their colleges have covid.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

The Atlanta Journal had a similar article today and they did admit (way down in the article) part of the problem was staffing.

People coming into the hospital for any reason are tested and if they are positive, they are counted as a Covid patient and take up Covid beds. If the procedure they are in for or Covid is not life-threatening they should be sent back home and wait for better circumstances.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

This thread was about the one in the first post. One system affects the others in the area, it's called a cascade effect. 

Plain and simple, it's a matter of staffing. Hospitals have had more than a year to hire more patient support staff. Have they done that?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> Where? As far as I know, our local hospital system has not mandated the vaccine.
> if they needed workers they could easily hire Washington medical staff who were terminated over the vaccine.


We have lost a certain number of nurses to our mandatory vaccination policy and it's making a very bad situation worse. 

I understand the need to vaccinate as many as possible but I'm not convinced that we shouldn't be making allowances for natural immunities and religious exemptions, with testing. 

My sister loves what she does and has worked hard to achieve a high level of recognition in her field and while she is fully vaccinated, she's ready to take early retirement. Not because of the mandatory vaccination program but the bullying and nastiness that's making her workplace unbearable. 

I have a friend who is an EMT, who is refusing to vaccinate because she's just endured a year of chemo and just not ready for more 'chemicals'. While she remains off work under doctor's orders, she's still being bullied by coworkers to be vacinated, to the point where she's getting ready to resign. 

Our labour laws protect us from bullying/abuse and at some point, Albertans are not only going to be without some good nurses, we're also going to be paying out massive settlements.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> This thread was about the one in the first post. One system affects the others in the area, it's called a cascade effect.
> 
> Plain and simple, it's a matter of staffing. Hospitals have had more than a year to hire more patient support staff. Have they done that?


this isn’t Ohio.
The health care system in Boise or Pocatello, etc. has no impact on the system here in Coeur Dalene. Spokane and Seattle would feel the impact. Both are closer and better.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Staffing has been a problem in Idaho for years. The covid increase is making it worse. Sorry but no covid and this current situation would not be happening.

Lots of good medical staff have died from Covid or are not able to work because they are ill.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> this isn’t Ohio.
> The health care system in Boise or Pocatello, etc. has no impact on the system here in Coeur Dalene. Spokane and Seattle would feel the impact. Both are closer and better.


So if there are no beds, your hospitals do not send patients to other facilities? What do they do with overflow patients?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> So if there are no beds, your hospitals do not send patients to other facilities? What do they do with overflow patients?


They have to send them to spokane. Where masking is mandated.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I agree, covid has made a bad situation worse. But covid has been circulating for more than a year. They knew about the possibly resistant variants last year. And yet hospitals across the country still are not hiring and training more people.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> I agree, covid has made a bad situation worse. But covid has been circulating for more than a year. They knew about the possibly resistant variants last year. And yet hospitals across the country still are not hiring and training more people.


Sorry but that is not the problem. There has been a shortage of medical personal for years. There was no one to hire and any good business does not hire in anticipation of what may come long term. Covid is the problem right now.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Staffing has been a problem in Idaho for years. The covid increase is making it worse. Sorry but no covid and this current situation would not be happening.
> 
> Lots of good medical staff have died from Covid or are not able to work because they are ill.


Unless our government statistics are fudged, we've had 3 healthcare workers die from covid to date. That's three more than I'd like to see but they were actually workers in nursing homes so I'm guessing all that PPE they use in hospitals has been quite helpful. 

I'd love to see no covid but I don't think that's possible at this time.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Over 3600 US Health care workers have died as of May of this year. Not sure what the number is now.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Exactly as you stated, there has been an ongoing personnel shortage. Covid has made it worse. 

This website for St. Lukes has the numbers of total patients and the numbers of covid patients. 









COVID-19 Data and Reporting - St. Luke's


Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, St. Luke's has relied upon data to inform our response. Data guides our readiness planning, patient care and resource management decisions.



www.stlukesonline.org





I couldn't find data for children only. But child cases are increasing in Idaho too.









Pediatric Coronavirus Cases Surge After Idaho Children Return To Classrooms


Here in Idaho, kids are back in school with districts making different decisions across the board in regards to student safety and masks. With children 12 and under not yet able to be vaccinated, many folks are questioning the safety of coming back to the classroom.




www.boisestatepublicradio.org


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Over 3600 US Health care workers have died as of May of this year. Not sure what the number is now.


How do you feel we can achieve the no covid status?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> How do you feel we can achieve the no covid status?


I don't think that is what is most important. I believe reducing serious illness and deaths from Covid is what is most important. That will happen as more people are vaccinated and the hospitals have more time to deal with those with serious illnesses. This will free up medical staff for treatment of those unable to get vaccinated or that vaccinations don't take well because of their immune systems


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Guess what, the hospitals would still be overrun even if the medical staff had not been let go because that number is not large and they have brought in traveling medical staff and military medical units.to replace them.


Guess what, a hospital being over run is not a good time to fire staff. Every staff member counts in a crisis.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> This will free up medical staff for treatment of those unable to get vaccinated or that vaccinations don't take well because of their immune systems.


Not firing medical staff would be conducive to that end as well.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Lots of good medical staff have died from Covid or are not able to work because they are ill.


Sounds like you're saying that we need each and every one that we can get.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> Not firing medical staff would be conducive to that end as well.


It has already been proven to not be enough without firing anyone. This is a pandemic.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> Sounds like you're saying that we need each and every one that we can get.


Sounds like a great reason to enforcing vaccination for everyone as well.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

A good solution is that all those who don't want to be vaccinated go work where there is no mandate and those that are, go work where there is a mandate.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> It has already been proven to not be enough without firing anyone. This is a pandemic.


No it hasn't. It's already been proven that they need all the help they can get. Otherwise, they wouldn't be using temp staffing agencies, which cost at least twice as much. Every staff member counts. Especially in a crisis. For every nurse that walks out the door, years of experience may be going with them.



painterswife said:


> Sounds like a great reason to enforcing vaccination for everyone as well.


Not really.
Many of these hospitals are diverting patients due to a lack of staffing, not a lack of beds. They just don't have enough nurses.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> A good solution is that all those who don't want to be vaccinated go work where there is no mandate and those that are, go work where there is a mandate.


They are. Hence the shortages.😁


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> No it hasn't. It's already been proven that they need all the help they can get. Otherwise, they wouldn't be using temp staffing agencies, which cost at least twice as much. Every staff member counts. Especially in a crisis. For every nurse that walks out the door, years of experience may be going with them.


I have already provided proof that your statement is wrong earlier in this thread. Northern Idaho has no mandate and fired no one and still had to bring in traveling staff and army medics.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Yes a tsunami of patients, a deluge. The hospital in North Idaho has 105 Covid patients and 15 of those are on ventilators. It's a 300 bed hospital and the only hospital serving 6 counties. The population of North Idaho was about a quarter of a million people at the last count, but has visibly grown since then to a considerable extent.

Kootenai County is starting monoclonal antibody treatment as outpatient care to cut down on the number of hospitalizations.

Drama much? As long as it fits the party line?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

*"Hospital Capacity*
*How many rooms do you have?*

Kootenai Health is currently licensed for 330 beds (up from 254 in 2015)


200 of those are for medical/surgical patients including acute care and critical care. Our COVID-19 isolation unit is included in this number.
77 are for behavioral health including adult, youth and chemical dependency.
52 are for women’s and children’s services including labor and delivery, postpartum, pediatrics and NICU.
When we share capacity numbers, we are providing the capacity of our medical/surgical area as a whole. Not all rooms can serve all patients.

The rooms designated for women and children’s and behavioral health are not set up for medical/surgical patients. They have different equipment for different types of patients and the employees have different skills and training.

*Why can’t all rooms be used for critical care?*

Critical care requires highly specialized equipment, supplies, and most importantly, specially-trained critical care staff to care for patients. We have converted additional rooms to be critical care rooms, but not all rooms can be converted."








COVID-19







www.kh.org





*"Current Hospital Status as of 9/16/2021, 8 a.m.*

*Total Number of COVID-19 Inpatients: 113*
*Number of COVID-19 Patients Requiring Critical Care: 34"*

Over half of their medical/surgical beds are being used by Covid patients. Mostly unvaccinated patients.

*"Who is getting infected?*

Most people who are getting infected, sick and hospitalized with COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

COVID-19 Stats from January 1, 2021 from the Idaho State Department of Health: <https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6xFhTrUUAMK887?format=jpg&name=medium>


98.9 % of cases were not fully vaccinated
 98.6 % of people hospitalized were not fully vaccinated
98.7 % of people who died were not fully vaccinated"


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You are on a campaign (in a very small population group) to get everyone vaccinated. Not everyone agrees with you. 

What are you accomplishing? 

Are you on the street corners with a sign encouraging people to get vaccinated? Are you contacting all the folks in your email list? Phoning all your family members?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You are on a campaign (in a very small population group) to get everyone vaccinated. Not everyone agrees with you.
> 
> What are you accomplishing?
> 
> Are you on the street corners with a sign encouraging people to get vaccinated? Are you contacting all the folks in your email list? Phoning all your family members?


You seem bothered that I want everyone who can, to get vaccinated. I have not forced anyone. I have just posted my opinion. I have supported my opinion with facts and circumstances. How is that any different than you posting your opinion?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Staffing has been a problem in Idaho for years. The covid increase is making it worse. Sorry but no covid and this current situation would not be happening.
> 
> Lots of good medical staff have died from Covid or are not able to work because they are ill.


Hospitals all over the nation have been closing or cutting back for years. Changes in medical / insurance polices and the general process of maximum profit with the lowest overhead is at work. This is also a reflection of some of the political administrations in office the last few terms. Anything out of the ordinary was going to be a issue. Happens to be covid at this time. It’s unlikely to change. Covid is just being used as a excuse to hide the poor management practices.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Hospitals all over the nation have been closing or cutting back for years. Changes in medical / insurance polices and the general process of maximum profit with the lowest overhead is at work. This is also a reflection of some of the political administrations in office the last few terms. Anything out of the ordinary was going to be a issue. Happens to be covid at this time. It’s unlikely to change. Covid is just being used as a excuse to hide the poor management practices.


I agree that hospitals run on the bare minimum where they can. There are businesses after all. I don't agree that it is their responsibility to be prepared for Covid if they private businesses.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Sounds like a great reason to enforcing vaccination for everyone as well.


With the list of mammals that can get COVID being quite long, I nominate you to handle the bear vaccinations.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> With the list of mammals that can get COVID being quite long, I nominate you to handle the bear vaccinations.


Not a problem. A dart gun will work well. Please supply me with the appropriate vaccine and equipment and I will get started on that. I do think we should start with animals that have more interaction with humans though. Getting within breathing distance of a bear does not happen that often for the majority of people.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

OMG, you didn't answer my questions in post #46. I am borrowing your line. 

Bothered? That's an interesting interpretation. 

Amused. Perplexed. Curious. Entertained.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Alice, I wish you could ride along with kid the paramedic for a few weeks. Staff cannot just be conjured up out of nowhere. The whole country needs more staff. And as for using all the space for critical care covid patients, what happens to the car wrecked teenager or the senior needing cancer treatment or the middle aged heart attack patient?

This kid of mine is very much red state politically, very all about personal freedom, and right to choose re the shot. (Funny how right to choose re the shot does not see how that can be used in another right to choose political issue. A street best not taken if one is not a blue state type.) I only skirt this politically so you can understand that for this particular person to take a "vaccinate them all" plea it takes a lot.

Like holding a tiny tot who was in a car/train wreck as the kid dies. That day my kid knew the hospital would take the tot. Today they could not. Or trying for 3 hours to revive a kid who drowned in a very cold pond. The hospital threw all it had into the attempt. They could not take the child today. Or the recent cases of telling heart attack and stroke victims families that they could NOT load them in the ambulance since there was NO WHERE to off load them. All they could do was assess, contact the hospital, and let the er doc IF AVAILABLE offer some home care suggestions. This kid of mine can go into cold sweats over the scenario of what if they get called to a bad wreck, and have to send the patient home with family? What if there is no family to come to the scene? Do they just gently lay them on the side of the road? What?

So I just plead this: for the sake of all the other people on the planet, get the shot. If you refuse, then for the sake of all that is holy STAY HOME so you don't take up a covid bed. If you absolutely must go out, stay away from others. And if you absolutely cannot, wear the danged n95.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Not a problem. A dart gun will work well. Please supply me with the appropriate vaccine and equipment and I will get started on that. I do think we should start with animals that have more interaction with humans though. Getting within breathing distance of a bear does not happen that often for the majority of people.


The rat, skunk or opossum that cleans up the dog's food bowl could have covid. Dog comes in and licks his master's face.The millions of deer that people will be elbows deep in the exploded lung caivty of in the next few months could have covid. The bear that licked your trashcan after rifling through your covid positive neighbor's snot rags while looking for uneaten pizza crust could have covid. Tell me how making health care workers leave the health care industry by even mentioning a vaccine mandate is going to help. Do you think that the virus will disappear? Do you think that the vaccine will remain effective? We were fortunate to have a vaccine deployed so rapidly, so that thoe people with predispositions to not be able to handle covid could have been vaccinated, but your type of behavior has caused many to distrust it. Now your actions might impact your health, should you need medical care at an understaffed facility filled with covid patients.Actions have consequences. The virus will be here forever, but it will only be used as a political weapon for as long as we let it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> The rat, skunk or opossum that cleans up the dog's food bowl could have covid. Dog comes in and licks his master's face.The millions of deer that people will be elbows deep in the exploded lung caivty of in the next few months could have covid. The bear that licked your trashcan after rifling through your covid positive neighbor's snot rags while looking for uneaten pizza crust could have covid. Tell me how making health care workers leave the health care industry by even mentioning a vaccine mandate is going to help. Do you think that the virus will disappear? Do you think that the vaccine will remain effective? We were fortunate to have a vaccine deployed so rapidly, so that thoe people with predispositions to not be able to handle covid could have been vaccinated, but your type of behavior has caused many to distrust it. Now your actions might impact your health, should you need medical care at an understaffed facility filled with covid patients.Actions have consequences. The virus will be here forever, but it will only be used as a political weapon for as long as we let it.


You do provide excellent reasons for vaccinating every human that can be vaccinated.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

painterswife said:


> You do provide excellent reasons for vaccinating every human that can be vaccinated.


Why?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> I agree that hospitals run on the bare minimum where they can. There are businesses after all. I don't agree that it is their responsibility to be prepared for Covid if they private businesses.


I have to prepare for peak season by upgrading equipment and hiring so why would other private businesses not at least try and prepare?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> I have to prepare for peak season by upgrading equipment and hiring so why would other private businesses not at least try and prepare?


They do prepare but this is not peak season. This is like a hurricane taking down a city but country-wide. Just like you can't prepare for a tornado to take out your entire property and all your equipment. i


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I have already provided proof that your statement is wrong earlier in this thread. Northern Idaho has no mandate and fired no one and still had to bring in traveling staff and army medics.


I was generalizing a bit. This is a problem many areas are facing. Not just Northern Idaho. Some places seem to be compounding the issue by firing workers that are otherwise willing to do the job for refusing the vaccine.

Do you think that the situation will improve by implementing the following...


painterswife said:


> Sounds like a great reason to enforcing vaccination for everyone as well.


Maybe even tell the few remaining staff...


painterswife said:


> A good solution is that all those who don't want to be vaccinated go work where there is no mandate and those that are, go work where there is a mandate.




Looks like TPTB want to do just as you're suggesting. 

They want to renege on a vow not to declare a mandate to take the vaccine that they told everyone not to trust in the first place.

Ooh! Sounds exciting!
Let's see what happens!😁


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> They do prepare but this is not peak season. This is like a hurricane taking down a city but country-wide. Just like you can't prepare for a* tornado* to take out your entire property and all your equipment. i


They don't call them tornadoes anymore. Don't know why. But, Joe said so.

_"The members of Congress know, from their colleagues in Congress that, uh, you know, the, looks like a tornado, they don't call them that anymore, that hit the crops and wetlands in the middle of the country, in Iowa and Nevada. It's just across the board."--- _J. Biden😆

Not sure what we settled on. Whirly-twirly? Dry hurricane? Windiana Jones?
I dunno.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

painterswife said:


> *"Hospital Capacity*
> *How many rooms do you have?*
> 
> Kootenai Health is currently licensed for 330 beds (up from 254 in 2015)
> ...


From Jan 1, 2021, when close to 100% of the population was not vaccinated.
When will they report numbers that show people that have not had any shot?
As long as they keep adding additional shots, those numbers will remain high. I think that's why they are pushing the third shot, to keep the numbers high.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nodak, why in the world did you address that post to me? I am bewildered.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't believe they will push the third shot right away unless you are in the area risk groups. The data is pointing to that. I think Israel jumped the gun.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

In reference to bears in trash cans,

“You do provide excellent reasons for vaccinating every human that can be vaccinated.”

That is an amazing failure of logic.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> In reference to bears in trash cans,
> 
> “You do provide excellent reasons for vaccinating every human that can be vaccinated.”
> 
> That is an amazing failure of logic.


It is simple. If all the people are vaccinated only bears will get covid


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> I don't believe they will push the third shot right away unless you are in the area risk groups. The data is pointing to that. I think Israel jumped the gun.


Have you joined the team of scientists in Isreal or perhaps you could share how you've arrived at the opinion their scientists are mistaken?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> You seem bothered that I want everyone who can, to get vaccinated. I have not forced anyone. I have just posted my opinion. I have supported my opinion with facts and circumstances. How is that any different than you posting your opinion?


Unfortunately, you diminished your message when you compared cognitive adults to errant toddlers refusing to eat their peas.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Have you joined the team of scientists in Isreal or perhaps you could share how you've arrived at the opinion their scientists are mistaken?


I read reports. You could as well instead of making snide remarks about me being on a research team.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Unfortunately, you diminished your message when you compared cognitive adults to errant toddlers refusing to eat their peas.


According to you as if that matters to me.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Snide matters? 

Definition of snide: derogatory or mocking in an indirect way.

I don't think wr was snide at all. She was direct.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Should I just ignore the snide remarks?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Did I say that?


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## LonerWNoPurpose (Sep 4, 2021)

painterswife said:


> COVID-19 surge forces health care rationing in parts of West
> 
> 
> BOISE, Idaho (AP) — In another ominous sign about the spread of the delta variant, Idaho public health leaders on Thursday expanded health care rationing statewide and individual hospital systems in Alaska and Montana have enacted similar crisis standards amid a spike in the number of...
> ...


I wonder how exactly the flu label is given? Are they car accident victims that also had antibodies? So many dead people died and were given the label but it was not why they died. This is how hospitals continue federal funding.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Should I just ignore the snide remarks?


You seem to be the only one who ever has hurt feelings. Yes, ignore what triggers you and try to stay on point.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> It is simple. If all the people are vaccinated only bears will get covid


Oh has the vaccine been proclaimed to stop the spread now?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Oh is the vaccine been proclaimed to stop the spread now?


I can't keep up.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You seem to be the only one who ever has hurt feelings. Yes, ignore what triggers you and try to stay on point.


Nah. Only my friends can hurt my feelings.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

OH MY GOSH. I watched too many comedians over the years. That's a straight line if I ever heard one.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I can't keep up.


As of 9/16/2021 here is what the CDC Van is playing over the loudspeaker.

If you are fully vaccinated and become infected with the Delta variant, you can spread the virus to others.
They went around a corner before I could hear about bears.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> As of 9/16/2021 here is what the CDC Van is playing over the loudspeaker.
> 
> If you are fully vaccinated and become infected with the Delta variant, you can spread the virus to others.
> They went around a corner before I could hear about bears.


Why does someone younger than 50 or 60 get vaccinated?

Why does someone that had covid get vaccinated?

How many masks am I supposed to wear?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was there. It said if you have the Delta Variant, it's because the earlier injections weeded out the weaker strains. Delta is the result of government manipulating a virus by injection.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Why does someone younger than 50 or 60 get vaccinated?
> So they aren't fired, refused service at banks, hospitals restaurants and paid escorts.
> Why does someone that had covid get vaccinated?
> Because their elected officials are losing patience with them.
> ...


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Are you on the street corners with a sign encouraging people to get vaccinated?


Or maybe...







😆


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

nodak3 said:


> Alice, I wish you could ride along with kid the paramedic for a few weeks. *Staff cannot just be conjured up out of nowhere. The whole country needs more staff.* And as for using all the space for critical care covid patients, what happens to the car wrecked teenager or the senior needing cancer treatment or the middle aged heart attack patient?
> 
> This kid of mine is very much red state politically, very all about personal freedom, and right to choose re the shot. (Funny how right to choose re the shot does not see how that can be used in another right to choose political issue. A street best not taken if one is not a blue state type.) I only skirt this politically so you can understand that for this particular person to take a "vaccinate them all" plea it takes a lot.
> 
> ...


The bolded part applies to nearly all businesses right now. We need people to work in hospitals, to manufacture things, to deliver things, to cook and wait tables in restaurants, teachers, and many other things. Where did the people go who filled those jobs before the virus? They didn't just vanish and they weren't the predominantly old folks who died of COVID. Our government is responsible. They paid people not to work, forcibly closed their places of employment, and many of those people found out they could get by without working.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I was there. It said if you have the Delta Variant, it's because the earlier injections weeded out the weaker strains. Delta is the result of government manipulating a virus by injection.


The CDC has a caution for people that believe things like that:

CDC cautions against taking red pill


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

wr said:


> We have lost a certain number of nurses to our mandatory vaccination policy and it's making a very bad situation worse.
> 
> I understand the need to vaccinate as many as possible but I'm not convinced that we shouldn't be making allowances for natural immunities and religious exemptions, with testing.
> 
> ...


Who is bullying your sister? Are these not union jobs? There is zero tolerance for bullying within a union so I would wondering if perhaps more to the story?

And I have to wonder if your friend with likely no immune system remaining after such a belt of chemo is being "bullied", or getting unwanted love from people who care so much about her and wonder why she can't take just one more shot to keep her safe when covid is unlikely to be a mild case for her. But to each their own.
Someone in my circle who smokes 4 packs a day is also afraid of the safety of the vaccine. And yes he gets heat for it from those around him who care about him very much. No it is NOT their business but they do it out of love.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I was there. It said if you have the Delta Variant, it's because the earlier injections weeded out the weaker strains. Delta is the result of government manipulating a virus by injection.


NOT true. Stop believing anything from wherever you heard that.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> I agree that hospitals run on the bare minimum where they can. There are businesses after all. I don't agree that it is their responsibility to be prepared for Covid if they private businesses.


I think your right in part. On the other hand the “private” hospitals seems to have no problem taking government money for most anything regarding covid. Not sure how to put it, but at some point there should be a “for the good of the public” concern in their thought process. Having alternatives and back up plans that are tested once in a while would seem to also be a good idea.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You all are SO FUNNY.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

For those who are interested, an article from National Geographic about the surging Delta variant and the viral load in both vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

Why is Delta more infectious and deadly? New research holds answers.

Does anyone else find it odd that information regarding breakthrough cases is still being supressed?









15 states are keeping COVID-19 breakthrough cases under wraps


State health departments across the country are taking various approaches to how they keep records on COVID-19 breakthrough cases, with 15 states deciding not to publish any data on the rare incide…




thehill.com





For sites that did give breakthrough information, the data I found had not been updated for a couple months.

I did find info for Maryland which saw an increase in breakthrough infections in August, 27% of covid cases were breakthrough infections.









Maryland doctors explain increases in breakthrough COVID-19 cases


The vast majority are unvaccinated people, but there's also been an increase in breakthrough cases among vaccinated people.




www.wbaltv.com


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fireweed farm said:


> Who is bullying your sister? Are these not union jobs? There is zero tolerance for bullying within a union so I would wondering if perhaps more to the story?
> 
> And I have to wonder if your friend with likely no immune system remaining after such a belt of chemo is being "bullied", or getting unwanted love from people who care so much about her and wonder why she can't take just one more shot to keep her safe when covid is unlikely to be a mild case for her. But to each their own.
> Someone in my circle who smokes 4 packs a day is also afraid of the safety of the vaccine. And yes he gets heat for it from those around him who care about him very much. No it is NOT their business but they do it out of love.


I’m quite certain that two well educated professionals know the difference between ‘loving advice’ and bullying. 

The woman could very well be following her doctor’s advice so I’m not sure it’s up to you or I to diagnose and dispense advice. 

The reality of covid is that seems like everybody is quick to impose their opinions on others, even when it’s not welcome.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You are on a campaign (in a very small population group) to get everyone vaccinated.


I don't think you are talking to me specifically here, but I'll bite.

I'm not on a campaign to get everyone vaccinated. I would like to stop much of the blatantly ridiculously wrong information that is being spread. I want people to have accurate information so they can decide whether or not to get the shots.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> Not everyone agrees with you.


That would be a boring place.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> What are you accomplishing?


Hopefully spreading good, reasonable information in an area that I know more than most, but less than some.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> Are you on the street corners with a sign encouraging people to get vaccinated? Are you contacting all the folks in your email list? Phoning all your family members?


I talk to patients, family, friends, and friends/strangers on the internet. And remember, there are many more people who read discussion boards than post here.



Redlands Okie said:


> Hospitals all over the nation have been closing or cutting back for years. Changes in medical / insurance polices and the general process of maximum profit with the lowest overhead is at work. This is also a reflection of some of the political administrations in office the last few terms. Anything out of the ordinary was going to be a issue. Happens to be covid at this time. It’s unlikely to change. Covid is just being used as a excuse to hide the poor management practices.


An idea that came through my head today...let's see if I can put it into the right words.

I think for the last 100 years we, the medical system, have been fighting against Darwin. We can keep a 500 pound uncontrolled diabetic methhead alive for decades by pouring tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of healthcare into them to keep their coronaries open, their blood pressure under control, their blood clean by dialysis, and their brains rehab'd after strokes.....all so they can go order their double big macs with extra large fries to eat while they are shooting up meth again. We can keep sweet demented grandma alive for another 3 years in a nursing home (at about $80K/year, PLUS healthcare). Etcetera ad nauseum.

Eventually Darwin is going to win. We have propped up a house of cards, meanwhile the adminiscritters/bureaucrats have ensured we built it on quicksand. I think Covid has strained the system, and just might have broken it. If it's not covid, it's going to be something else. Eventually we will keep too many people alive for much longer than they should have been (not judgmental type of "they should die", but a "holy crap how are they still alive") and it's gonna collapse.

Just some thoughts that a few of us at work had today as we were trying to find beds for patients that needed to be admitted.



nodak3 said:


> Like holding a tiny tot who was in a car/train wreck as the kid dies. That day my kid knew the hospital would take the tot. Today they could not. Or trying for 3 hours to revive a kid who drowned in a very cold pond. The hospital threw all it had into the attempt. They could not take the child today. Or the recent cases of telling heart attack and stroke victims families that they could NOT load them in the ambulance since there was NO WHERE to off load them. All they could do was assess, contact the hospital, and let the er doc IF AVAILABLE offer some home care suggestions. This kid of mine can go into cold sweats over the scenario of what if they get called to a bad wreck, and have to send the patient home with family? What if there is no family to come to the scene? Do they just gently lay them on the side of the road? What?


This is nowhere near accurate. Trauma centers don't close for trauma. Kid hit by train, to the trauma center. Kid drowns...any ED will take that,no matter how busy we are. If a hospital is on diversion for ambulances then EMS goes to another hospital. But there is a rule with ED diversions....if we are all on diversion, then NOBODY is on diversion and EMS takes where they want. Nobody is going to tell a STEMI to go home for family home care. STEMIs go to a cath lab and take minimal ED resources. 

Sorry man, but your stories here don't add up.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I was there. It said if you have the Delta Variant, it's because the earlier injections weeded out the weaker strains. Delta is the result of government manipulating a virus by injection.


It is just reverting to the mean. Delta wave is possibly more transmissible, but I don't think it is a more dangerous strain. However it does seem to affect younger people a big more, which I think is also more along the average for coronavirus.


----------



## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> In reference to bears in trash cans,
> 
> “You do provide excellent reasons for vaccinating every human that can be vaccinated.”
> 
> That is an amazing failure of logic.


Seems to be her superpower


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

View attachment 99957
View attachment 99957


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)




----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

fireweed farm said:


> Who is bullying your sister? Are these not union jobs? There is zero tolerance for bullying within a union so I would wondering if perhaps more to the story?
> 
> And I have to wonder if your friend with likely no immune system remaining after such a belt of chemo is being "bullied", or getting unwanted love from people who care so much about her and wonder why she can't take just one more shot to keep her safe when covid is unlikely to be a mild case for her. But to each their own.
> Someone in my circle who smokes 4 packs a day is also afraid of the safety of the vaccine. And yes he gets heat for it from those around him who care about him very much. No it is NOT their business but they do it out of love.


Unions do not bully? Thats a new one for me.


----------



## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

gilberte said:


> View attachment 99958


Trying it out for size? Came from Transylvania and brought a classic Transylvania sleeping box.
What’s the point, you build big boxes?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

fireweed farm said:


> NOT true. Stop believing anything from wherever you heard that.


I'd have to say that would also apply to someone who says Unions don't bully.
As someone who belonged to several, both public sector and private, I can speak first hand to the bullying that occurred from the top down.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

GTX63 said:


> I'd have to say that would also apply to someone who says Unions don't bully.
> As someone who belonged to several, both public sector and private, I can speak first hand to the bullying that occurred from the top down.


I am no union lover but one benefit of unions would be following protocol and union reps to ensure protocol is followed. There is zero tolerance for bullying and harassment in the workplace, if it’s coming from too down then perhaps you should have reported it to your rep.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You misunderstood. The bullying was inside the Union, from top to bottom, both private and public. It has been common place for quite a while.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

fireweed farm said:


> Alice In TX/MO said:
> 
> 
> > I was there. It said if you have the Delta Variant, it's because the earlier injections weeded out the weaker strains. Delta is the result of government manipulating a virus by injection.
> ...


Actually, what Alice said is very real according to findings in ancient medicine. 

Now, granted, this is from the dark-ages of medicine, all way back in 2019- back when Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine were considered safe drugs. I mean, how many of us can even remember how old we were way back in 2019… if we were even born yet… but the findings were quite compelling; “leaky vaccines”, like the ones we now have for the Coldvid, create an evolutionary environment in which the virus is encouraged to mutate more aggressively, with potentially terrible unintended consequences.









‘Leaky’ Vaccines Can Produce Stronger Versions of Viruses


By studying chickens, researchers say they have proven the theory that more virulent viruses can evolve from so-called “leaky” vaccines.




www.healthline.com






I’ve now heard several infectious disease doctors state that this leaky vaccine would be expected to lead to mutations precisely like what “delta” supposedly is.

Where’s your evidence? St. Fauci? CNN?


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

fireweed farm said:


> NOT true. Stop believing anything from wherever you heard that.


Actually that is how it works with such things. The vaccine changes the selection pressure making the environment more favorable for different strains. It is not unlike the many antibiotic resistant germs such as MRSA.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I read an article this morning where it was stated the "vaccine" was never intended to prevent infection, just to lessen the severity of symptoms. 

Hmmm, I seem to remember saying that very thing earlier this year.









Vaccines stop COVID-19 symptoms, but do they stop transmission?


Fred Hutch researchers are racing to find out whether the new COVID-19 vaccines, which are proven to stop disease symptoms, also block transmission of the virus. If the vaccines are only "symptom-reducing," those who take it might still become infected and possibly contagious. New studies may be...



www.fredhutch.org













Early Vaccines Will Prevent Symptoms, Not Virus


Top Infectious disease expert Anthony Fauci, MD, says the initial COVID-19 vaccines will prevent symptoms in those who become infected with the coronavirus rather than kill the virus itself.




www.webmd.com





There's several more articles. I'm surprised they are still available.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> but the findings were quite compelling; “leaky vaccines”, like the ones we now have for the Coldvid, create an evolutionary environment in which the virus is encouraged to mutate more aggressively, with potentially terrible unintended consequences.


I didn't read anywhere that said a "leaky vaccine" (which I think is a poor description) "encourages" viruses to "mutate more aggressively".

It is full of "could" "may", etc, which is hard to argue against.

The jist of this article is pretty simple - you can stop virus mutations by either by having a perfect vaccine (ie: non-leaky) or by killing the hosts (in this article - culling the infected chickens). And if you can't completely stop the virus, then it will mutate, and might mutate with "potentially terrible unintended consequences."

All correct, but ignores the fact that every other viral outbreaks have eventually reverted to the mean, therefore covid can be reasonably expected to revert to the mean and eventually become more like a traditional coronavirus.

However, this one appears to be manipulated, so it's mean may be a more virulent strain than traditional coronavirus.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> How many masks am I supposed to wear?


You have you wear 3.14 or you will never get any pie.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> I didn't read anywhere that said a "leaky vaccine" (which I think is a poor description) "encourages" viruses to "mutate more aggressively".
> 
> It is full of "could" "may", etc, which is hard to argue against.
> 
> ...


You didn’t look very hard. Perhaps you don’t want to see something counter to the gospel you’ve assigned your faith to?

This is a direct quote from the abstract of the underlying study: “_Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts._”

I listened to a virologist on a radio program a week or two ago saying that a vaccine that still allows transmission (“leaky” seems a fairly apt term, in my opinion) can lead to one of two things. If a virus has a high mortality rate, a vaccine that makes a host live longer, leading to the emergence of more deadly strains; like what happened with Marek’s.

The other thing that can happen, when the subject virus is highly evolved so as not to be so highly fatal to its hosts, is that the vaccine reduces the outward symptoms, but does not reduce transmissibility, leading to mutations that are immune to the vaccination and spread through asymptomatic transmission.

Tell me that second situation doesn’t sound eerily like Covid.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> You have you wear 3.14 or you will never get any pie.


This is one of the best examples of the failures of the public education system. All the schools teaching pie are square. Any fool knows that cornbread are square, but pie are round.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> This is one of the best examples of the failures of the public education system. All the schools teaching pie are square. Any fool knows that cornbread are square, but pie are round.


Actually, in Texas, cornbread R round. 

Cast iron skillet baby!!!


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You didn’t look very hard. Perhaps you don’t want to see something counter to the gospel you’ve assigned your faith to?


Nope, just didn't read into it what you read into it. See below.
BTW - I've been pretty clear I'm not an advocate of Fauci, and I think the CDC/NIH/WHO have been ruined by politicization. So perhaps you can quit with the personal jabs? 



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> This is a direct quote from the abstract of the underlying study: “_Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts._”


Yes. That "condition" it creates is called life. It doesn't kill the virus, and if the host lives the virus will live, so the virus can continue to mutate. This condition would exist with or without the vaccine, so I wouldn't say the vaccine CREATES that condition, or worsens it, or anything like that like you said the article inferred.




GunMonkeyIntl said:


> (“leaky” seems a fairly apt term, in my opinion)


I think the term could confer a meaning that the vaccine could leak the actual disease, versus just not being a perfect vaccine.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The other thing that can happen, when the subject virus is highly evolved so as not to be so highly fatal to its hosts, is that the vaccine reduces the outward symptoms, but does not reduce transmissibility, leading to mutations that are immune to the vaccination and spread through asymptomatic transmission.
> 
> Tell me that second situation doesn’t sound eerily like Covid.


Sounds like reverting to the mean of being an average coronavirus.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> Nope, just didn't read into it what you read into it. See below.
> BTW - I've been pretty clear I'm not an advocate of Fauci, and I think the CDC/NIH/WHO have been ruined by politicization. So perhaps you can quit with the personal jabs?
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like the researchers also read something into their findings that you didn’t.

Virus mutation is evolution in-action. In that regard, sure, the situation the leaky vaccine creates is “life”, but that’s a weak dodge. The leaky vaccine makes it so that hosts who wouldn’t have survived do survive a little longer, or hosts that would have otherwise displayed symptoms, and reduce their exposure to others, instead don’t know they have it, and go around spreading a version of the virus that also happens to be resistant to the vaccine.

In the 2010s, virologists were warning us of the dangers of using vaccines that were leaky, and, in the 2020s virologists are telling us to take this leaky vaccine or die… and the exact things they warned us about are now happening.

Some people are even evangelizing for it.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The 25 billion $ healthcare system in the Province of Alberta has collapsed in just 2 months because of the huge surge of Covid-19 patients in this fourth wave. Unvaccinated of course. The Premier did nothing right to tackle the pandemic and people are now paying for this. Patients with other problems have already been paying for this for months with cancellation or surgeries, testing and treatments and lack of hospitalization available for those in need. And of course being side-lined in the emergency centers. This was all predictable. 

Doctors are now deciding who gets treatment based on who has the best chance to survive which means basically a death decision when you enter the hospital if you are old and very ill. . Already happened in Europe and what all doctors have feared would happen again. Idaho and Alberta are just the beginning.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Interesting read on Webmd about side effects being reported.





__





Drugs & Medications


Find 85 user ratings and reviews for Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine (PF)(EUA) Intramuscular on WebMD including side effects and drug interactions, medication effectiveness, ease of use and satisfaction




www.webmd.com


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ohio hospitals are begging people to stop using the emergency room as a doctor's office. I saw a blurb on the news so I have no linked article.



no really said:


> Interesting read on Webmd about side effects being reported.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well they can't _prove_ that happened because of the vaccine. Those who had bad reactions would probably developed those issues sooner or later anyway. 
(sarcasm) But that is what the women in that side effect video were told.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Converts to a mean of being an average corona virus that spreads more easily because of vaccinated people. Remember, our first line of defense in our evolution of immune response is that we feel sick. We hang out in the cave instead of frolicking at the mammoth roast. This is part of a system of protection that has allowed us to survive for millennium. But you know how mankind reacts to nature. What this island needs is some rabbits.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

barnbilder said:


> Converts to a mean of being an average corona virus that spreads more easily because of vaccinated people. Remember, our first line of defense in our evolution of immune response is that we feel sick. We hang out in the cave instead of frolicking at the mammoth roast. This is part of a system of protection that has allowed us to survive for millennium. But you know how mankind reacts to nature. What this island needs is some rabbits.


That’s exactly the point. 
First, one has to suspend disbelief to accept that COVID-19 is something more than a bad cold, equivalent to one of the many “bad flu years” we’ve had several times over the past several decades.

Second, one also has to suspend the distrust that TPTB have fomented over the last 18 months, overtly and repeatedly lying to our faces.

Third, one has to suspend earned wisdom and be willing to do all of the things that the science of virology has taught us NOT TO DO over the last 100+ years- namely locking away those who are otherwise healthy and at low-risk during a pandemic, and then demanding that everyone take a known leaky vaccine.

And, if all that wasn’t enough, some are willing to go to a fourth level and suspend their sense of Liberty, and demand that everyone around them follow them down their outlandish rabbit hole and suspend their own disbelief, distrust, and earned wisdom.

I’m 40 years old and in reasonably good health. I’m not playing your stupid game. While I think this vaccine, being steamrolled over the entire populace, against the learning of all of our historical scientific advancement, is MONUMENTALLY stupid at the species level, I don’t believe the vaccine is all that dangerous at an individual level.

I’ll take it. But, before I do, I want to see everyone of these Branch Covidian evangelicals actually _follow the science_, and start vocally demanding an end to all the things that the science (the real kind, not this New-Coke CNN bull**** bastardization of science) has taught us are the wrong things to do. You want me to love your stupid vaccine, fine. Let me see you all shout down the lock-downs, masks, and social-distancing for anyone under 60 years old. Then we’ll talk.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Rabbits? Maybe we need pigs. Not bears. That could take care of the disposal problem. Has the virus been identified in pigs?






(Note: I am sewing and watching Deadwood.)


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

barnbilder said:


> Converts to a mean of being an average corona virus that spreads more easily because of vaccinated people.


Spreads more easy BECAUSE of vaccinated people? No, unless you are referring to a loosening of restrictions for vaccinated people.




GunMonkeyIntl said:


> First, one has to suspend disbelief to accept that COVID-19 is something more than a bad cold, equivalent to one of the many “bad flu years” we’ve had several times over the past several decades.


This is like nothing we have seen for 100 years. Nothing at all.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I’m 40 years old and in reasonably good health. I’m not playing your stupid game.


Unfortunately you are still playing this stupid game my friend. We had a mid-twenty year old healthy guy die from this.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> While I think this vaccine, being steamrolled over the entire populace, against the learning of all of our historical scientific advancement, is MONUMENTALLY stupid at the species level, I don’t believe the vaccine is all that dangerous at an individual level.


Agree on all counts.

We have completely screwed up the response to this pandemic, but I will at least give Trump and others the benefit of acknowledging we are looking at things through a retrospectoscope.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

When you travel to an area where a history of systemic oppression has caused the residents to distrust doctors and the government, and you are aware of their resulting vaccination rate, when you should be home feeling like caca from the infection you have, you are endangering people with your vaccinated self.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

emdeengee said:


> The 25 billion $ healthcare system in the Province of Alberta has collapsed in just 2 months because of the huge surge of Covid-19 patients in this fourth wave. Unvaccinated of course. The Premier did nothing right to tackle the pandemic and people are now paying for this. Patients with other problems have already been paying for this for months with cancellation or surgeries, testing and treatments and lack of hospitalization available for those in need. And of course being side-lined in the emergency centers. This was all predictable.
> 
> Doctors are now deciding who gets treatment based on who has the best chance to survive which means basically a death decision when you enter the hospital if you are old and very ill. . Already happened in Europe and what all doctors have feared would happen again. Idaho and Alberta are just the beginning.


Kenny certainly failed the province but the rest of your post is untrue. The system is approximately 7 - 10 days from triaging patients (provided the trajectory continues) but according to information from doctors and public records were are not collapsed nor are patients being refused emergency care. 

I'm not a fan of Kenny or Hinshaw and think they should both lose their jobs and be charged criminally (just as they wanted to do to others in recent months) but but I'd be curious to know which stats are the truth and which are political fabrication. The stats Kenney and Hinshaw presented in their news conference differed greatly from her zoom meeting with doctors were she stated @ 25% of those in ICU were vaccinated. 

It's also interesting that they have no comment on the recent postponement of surgeries at the children's hospital. The facility is quite specialized and if we have that many kids in the hospital, they seriously need to rethink school and public policies for unvaccinated children. 

I'm pretty convinced that medicine and politics just don't mix considering Hinshaw admitted publicly that her missing metrics showed the this was going to happen and since there were no press conferences, the public was unaware of increasing numbers.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Can we see the big bang from a retrospectoscope?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Idaho Botched Its Pandemic Response. Now It's Begging Neighbors Like Washington State for Help.


You try at this point not to be cruel and unfeeling, but if I were a heart patient in Spokane...




www.esquire.com





_Idaho Botched Its Pandemic Response. Now It's Begging Neighbors Like Washington State for Help.

You try at this point not to be cruel and unfeeling, but if I were a heart patient in Spokane...



Congratulations, America. The pandemic now has states yelling at each other, and that always ends well. Let us take, for example, Idaho, a state that is like the nation’s attic in which we store all the crazy uncles and aunts. Idaho is one of the most hardcore Live-Free-and-Die states in the union. Back in March, a bunch of parents brought their kids to the steps of the state capitol so they could all burn their masks on local TV. (Used to be all you needed to do was build a decent soapbox derby car.) This owned the libs all the way into Oregon. Of course, now Idaho is foundering in the trough between the second and third waves of the pandemic, and it has decided to depend on the kindness of strangers. From CNN:



It's terrible. I don't know if people understand the gravity of the situation," Cassie Sauer, chief executive of the Washington State Hospital Association, told CNN Thursday evening. "This is not something that should be happening in America at this point.” Sauer says hospitals in Washington are getting more requests to take patients from overwhelmed facilities in Idaho. In some cases, sick Idahoans are simply driving themselves across the border seeking treatment. "The fact that it's not causing severe alarm in Idaho is shocking to me," Sauer said. "In a normal time, our hospitals would accept almost every transfer request. They're accepting some, but they're declining more now.”



You try at this point not to be cruel and unfeeling, but if I were a heart patient in, say, Spokane, and I couldn’t get a bed for my mitral valve surgery because all the ICU slots were taken up by COVID patients from a state run entirely by conservative Republican morons, I’d be pretty frosted, actually. Meanwhile, Idaho has decided to face the crisis by developing…wait for it…death panels!_


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I saw my plastic surgeon yesterday and there’s no way to get my second surgery in this year.
And yes, he says lot of Idaho patients in our Spokane hospital.
They coukd do it in their private surgery suite but if something went wrong, no ICU beds .
There were enough complications last time. Not taking the chance.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> I saw my plastic surgeon yesterday and there’s no way to get my second surgery in this year.
> And yes, he says lot of Idaho patients in our Spokane hospital.
> They coukd do it in their private surgery suite but if something went wrong, no ICU beds .
> There were enough complications last time. Not taking the chance.


I'm sorry you have to wait but I think your doctor is wise. Even with all the precautions in place, we've seen several unit outbreaks at our hospitals even when our numbers were low.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Whatever happen to those navy hospital ships? Why can't they be parked off the Northwest coast and relieve some of the pressure?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Whatever happen to those navy hospital ships? Why can't they be parked off the Northwest coast and relieve some of the pressure?


Kind of far from Idaho.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> Kind of far from Idaho.


Isn't this whole thing about Washington feeling the pressure from Idaho? Last time I checked Washington had a lot of coast.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Isn't this whole thing about Washington feeling the pressure from Idaho? Last time I checked Washington had a lot of coast.


It’s eastern WA that is being inundated. 4-5 hours from Puget Sound.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> It’s eastern WA that is being inundated. 4-5 hours from Puget Sound.


Less critical patients can be moved to the ships leaving more room for more critical patients. Or, hospitals near the coast can move several patients to the ships leaving room for more from the east, which will open up those beds for patients from further east, etc..


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Less critical patients can be moved to the ships leaving more room for more critical patients. Or, hospitals near the coast can move several patients to the ships leaving room for more from the east, which will open up those beds for patients from further east, etc..


Or Idaho can take care of its own.
sounds like Spokane hospitals are starting to turn them down.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> Or Idaho can take care of its own.
> sounds like Spokane hospitals are starting to turn them down.


Probably would be better for Idaho. Washington seems to be full of folks who have an arrogant disregard for human life.


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## cannonfoddertfc (Dec 20, 2020)

Farmerga said:


> Probably would be better for Idaho. Washington seems to be full of folks who have an arrogant disregard for human life.


We try to keep them west of the cascades but they are infecting the rest of the state as well.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

cannonfoddertfc said:


> We try to keep them west of the cascades but they are infecting the rest of the state as well.


Oh, the little man who is scared to say where he lives!


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## cannonfoddertfc (Dec 20, 2020)

Fear has nothing to do with it, I just dont feel the need to appease a troll. 
Where I live is about as much your business as your bra size is mine... and I really dont want to know so please dont share.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

cannonfoddertfc said:


> Fear has nothing to do with it, I just dont feel the need to appease a troll.
> Where I live is about as much your business as your bra size is mine... and I really dont want to know so please dont share.


Clearly, you have no idea what a troll is.
Because you are one.
You really don’t live in eastern WA at all.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> Oh, the little man who is scared to say where he lives!


Classy stuff you got going on lately.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Farmerga said:


> Whatever happen to those navy hospital ships? Why can't they be parked off the Northwest coast and relieve some of the pressure?


The crew is in their mandatory 6 month critical race theory training.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Can we see the big bang from a retrospectoscope?


Possibly, if one were looking at an irritated bowel.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Yesterday Alberta asked the rest of Canada to help them with the catastrophe that is their Covid-19 response. BC has 

On Wednesday, Alberta declared a public health emergency and Premier Jason Kenney apologized for ignoring the warnings of experts and lifting nearly all public health measures over the summer, a decision that led to a surge in COVID-19 cases now that threatens to overwhelm staffed intensive care beds within 10 days.

“We are taking two extremely difficult steps: We will be reaching out to other provinces to see if they have any available ICU space where Albertans could get the care that they need, as well as asking them if they have skilled frontline staff who may be willing to come to Alberta to assist us,” said Alberta Health Services president and CEO Dr. Verna Yiu at the news conference where the public health emergency was declared.

One day after one of Alberta’s top health officials announced that that province’s COVID-19 health-care crisis necessitated a cross-country call for help, British Columbia’s health minister has responded to say B.C. simply can’t handle helping anyone else. . 

That is the reality. BC and other provinces can offer only limited help. They are not overwhelmed with patients yet but the fall is here with projections for even more Covid-19 spread as people go indoors - just as last year. 

And it is the responsibility of each province to protect its healthcare system, healthcare workers and patients . The pandemic has caused huge delays in treatment for all sorts of other conditions and illnesses and each province has a duty to take care of their patients who have been sidelined by Covid patients. And now is the time they can do so when they are not yet swamped. The Federal Government will send in the military as it did before and each province - including BC - will offer help but not ICU beds. Basically Alberta made its bed.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

emdeengee said:


> Yesterday Alberta asked the rest of Canada to help them with the catastrophe that is their Covid-19 response. BC has
> 
> On Wednesday, Alberta declared a public health emergency and Premier Jason Kenney apologized for ignoring the warnings of experts and lifting nearly all public health measures over the summer, a decision that led to a surge in COVID-19 cases now that threatens to overwhelm staffed intensive care beds within 10 days.
> 
> ...


Interesting. If Alberta was a state, would you say it was a red state or a blue state?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Definitely a red province (Conservative Party in Canada) this time with a majority government but before that the NDP (New Democratic Party) had the majority government from 2015 to 2019. And the NDP are more liberal than the Liberal Party.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Lisa in WA said:


> again, there are no mandates at the main healthcare provider in northern Idaho and yet it was the first to start rationing.
> Do you get thta?


You are wasting your time. The folks who want to believe the problem is because of health worker vaccine mandates aren't going to be swayed by facts or logic. They are only interested in things, even if fictitious, which reinforce their opinions and beliefs. May the blessings of COVID be upon them. It appears that the only time they change is when they are on deaths door.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Sounds like a great reason to enforcing vaccination for everyone as well


How would you go about enforcing something that isn't a law in the first place? Forcing people to undergo experimental medical procedures is something the Nazis did. Oh, sorry. I just answered my own question, Nazi Party, Democratic Party, same, same.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You are wasting your time. The folks who want to believe the problem is because of health worker vaccine mandates aren't going to be swayed by facts or logic. They are only interested in things, even if fictitious, which reinforce their opinions and beliefs. May the blessings of COVID be upon them. It appears that the only time they change is when they are on deaths door.


How very kind of you to wish death upon people who don't see things your way.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

wr said:


> How very kind of you to wish death upon people who don't see things your way.


All those folks who are saying it's a hoax, no worse than the flu, etc. should have nothing to fear from COVID. You seem to be reading into my statement your own bias. I don't wish death on them but it is clear that their own free choice to not get vaccinated brings consequences. Those consequences include a relatively small risk of death unless they are trying to get into a hospital system overwhelmed by their fellow antivaxxers. They should be much more concerned about the risks of long COVID and lifetime ill health. 

We don't have a hospital in the county where my farm is. Folks get transported an hour or more to hospitals in other counties. We just had another local person, a barber, who was transported to a hospital. He continued to work - unmasked - even after he became symptomatic. It will be interesting to see how many people he infected. This is a deep red county and things like wearing masks or getting vaccinated are considered political statements. So absolutely no sympathy on my part. They should go to the end of the triage line when it comes to deciding whether and what medical care they are given. I'm kind to puppies and little children, not fools who suffer self inflicted outcomes.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mike in Ohio said:


> All those folks who are saying it's a hoax, no worse than the flu, etc. should have nothing to fear from COVID. You seem to be reading into my statement your own bias. I don't wish death on them but it is clear that their own free choice to not get vaccinated brings consequences. Those consequences include a relatively small risk of death unless they are trying to get into a hospital system overwhelmed by their fellow antivaxxers. They should be much more concerned about the risks of long COVID and lifetime ill health.
> 
> We don't have a hospital in the county where my farm is. Folks get transported an hour or more to hospitals in other counties. We just had another local person, a barber, who was transported to a hospital. He continued to work - unmasked - even after he became symptomatic. It will be interesting to see how many people he infected. This is a deep red county and things like wearing masks or getting vaccinated are considered political statements. So absolutely no sympathy on my part. They should go to the end of the triage line when it comes to deciding whether and what medical care they are given. I'm kind to puppies and little children, not fools who suffer self inflicted outcomes.


The only bias I have is that I am fully vaccinated and lost a fully vaccinated friend to covid very recently so not everybody affected is unvaccinated or deserving. 

Our hospitals are beyond capacity because our premier didn't want to have any negative impact on our federal election. 

I'm not sure what you have for health regulations but we have a whole bunch of unvaccinated kids legally allowed to do all the things that vaccinated people can and do it without masks. It strikes me as poor planning but I don't wish them any harm either.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

wr said:


> The only bias I have is that I am fully vaccinated and lost a fully vaccinated friend to covid very recently so not everybody affected is unvaccinated or deserving.


And I have all the sympathy in the world for your friend and your friend's relatives. Your friend took steps to protect themself. That is different from folks who have the means to mitigate the risk but choose not to.



wr said:


> Our hospitals are beyond capacity because our premier didn't want to have any negative impact on our federal election.


Politicians are politicians.



wr said:


> I'm not sure what you have for health regulations but we have a whole bunch of unvaccinated kids legally allowed to do all the things that vaccinated people can and do it without masks. It strikes me as poor planning but I don't wish them any harm either.


Like I wrote, I have sympathy for little children. They don't get to choose. In the U.S. children under 12 aren't eligible to get vaccinated at this time. Children under age (typically under 18) are subject to the decisions of their parents. There is a lot of stupid ranting by some parents about mask requirements in schools and on school buses. Then when the schools close because of outbreaks that could have been controlled or mitigated, those same parents start ranting about how unfair and terrible the school officials are for closing the school or going to remote learning. It might make one think they just like to rant. But of course, if their child falls seriously ill with COVID they blame everybody but themselves for what befalls their child.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Mike in Ohio said:


> And I have all the sympathy in the world for your friend and your friend's relatives. Your friend took steps to protect themself. That is different from folks who have the means to mitigate the risk but choose not to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those under 18 are more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than the disease. Whatever you think you know about cloth masks or 3 ply masks to prevent/reduce infection from any coronavirus is misguided, either intentionally or via ignorance..take your pick.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Our Wva hospitals have fired many. 
I have always wondered why they dont use.the mercy ships like during disasters that seem to happen more on the coast. Why not for the refugees . they have cruise ships parked during covid.use them. Would make great homeless housing. Geez just dock a few in Baltimore harbor Fla Georgia Texas 
Oregon


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Hiro said:


> Those under 18 are more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than the disease. Whatever you think you know about cloth masks or 3 ply masks to prevent/reduce infection from any coronavirus is misguided, either intentionally or via ignorance..take your pick.


And here we have another person spouting nonsense. Who should we believe, you or Stanford University Medical Center? When can you vaccinate your kids? What we know as FDA prepares to consider data from studies

Who should we believe, you or the University of Rochester Medical Center? Everything you Need to Know About the Pfizer COVID Vaccine for Children Aged 12-15

I could go on and on but I suppose I should ask whee you got your medical degree and which research institute you are affiliated with?

As far as masks, who are we to believe, you or Stanford University Medical Center and Yale School of Medicine? Surgical masks reduce COVID-19 spread, large-scale study shows

I'll take a review of mask studies in Scientific American over your claim any day of the week and twice on Sundays - Masks Protect Schoolkids from COVID despite What Antiscience Politicians Claim

Tell us again where you got your medical credentials?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Mike in Ohio said:


> And here we have another person spouting nonsense. Who should we believe, you or Stanford University Medical Center? When can you vaccinate your kids? What we know as FDA prepares to consider data from studies
> 
> Who should we believe, you or the University of Rochester Medical Center? Everything you Need to Know About the Pfizer COVID Vaccine for Children Aged 12-15
> 
> ...


I am not sure what drugs you are taking. But, you should actually read those links and try your best to understand them, rather than retitle them.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Hiro said:


> I am not sure what drugs you are taking. But, you should actually read those links and try your best to understand them, rather than retitle them.


I actually did read them. Tell us again where you got your medical degree, spreader of misinformation that you are? Despite the fact that the onus is on the person making an assertion (you), I provided citations (using links) to well known and respected institutions which refute your baseless claims. So stand up and try to prove your silly assertions using medical research studies that are peer reviewed. You got nothing.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Hiro said:


> I am not sure what drugs you are taking. But, you should actually read those links and try your best to understand them, rather than retitle them.


Oh yeah...


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You are wasting your time. The folks who want to believe the problem is because of health worker vaccine mandates aren't going to be swayed by facts or logic. They are only interested in things, even if fictitious, which reinforce their opinions and beliefs. May the blessings of COVID be upon them. It appears that the only time they change is when they are on deaths door.


We are all going to face death. Covid issue, been there done that same as many. Next ?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I actually did read them. Tell us again where you got your medical degree, spreader of misinformation that you are? Despite the fact that the onus is on the person making an assertion (you), I provided citations (using links) to well known and respected institutions which refute your baseless claims. So stand up and try to prove your silly assertions using medical research studies that are peer reviewed. You got nothing.


Just out of idle curiosity, which one of those links you idiotically retitled were peer reviewed studies and where did you get your medical degree? Dr. Fauci has a medical degree and goodness knows he has shown his expertise to all of us over and over. In actuality, you have nothing and are spreading disinformation and are have no idea what you are talking about.

Trying to vaccinate minors for a disease they aren't very susceptible to is evil.

Masking children with ineffective masks is child abuse.

You fool no one other than those that wish to be fooled.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> All those folks who are saying it's a hoax, no worse than the flu, etc. should have nothing to fear from COVID. You seem to be reading into my statement your own bias. I don't wish death on them but it is clear that their own free choice to not get vaccinated brings consequences. Those consequences include a relatively small risk of death unless they are trying to get into a hospital system overwhelmed by their fellow antivaxxers. They should be much more concerned about the risks of long COVID and lifetime ill health.
> 
> We don't have a hospital in the county where my farm is. Folks get transported an hour or more to hospitals in other counties. We just had another local person, a barber, who was transported to a hospital. He continued to work - unmasked - even after he became symptomatic. It will be interesting to see how many people he infected. This is a deep red county and things like wearing masks or getting vaccinated are considered political statements. So absolutely no sympathy on my part. They should go to the end of the triage line when it comes to deciding whether and what medical care they are given. I'm kind to puppies and little children, not fools who suffer self inflicted outcomes.


At least be a bit more honest why the hospitals are in the shape they are in. It’s certainly not solely due to corona virus. Not even close.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Hiro said:


> Just out of idle curiosity, which one of those links you idiotically retitled were peer reviewed studies and where did you get your medical degree? Dr. Fauci has a medical degree and goodness knows he has shown his expertise to all of us over and over. In actuality, you have nothing and are spreading disinformation and are have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Trying to vaccinate minors for a disease they aren't very susceptible to is evil.
> 
> ...


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Mike in Ohio said:


> View attachment 100157


Just as I suspected. Case closed.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> At least be a bit more honest why the hospitals are in the shape they are in. It’s certainly not solely due to corona virus. Not even close.


Subtract patients with Coronavirus from ERs and hospital admissions and you might have a few rural hospitals with problems due to staffing issues but the overwhelming majority of hospitals in the U.S. would not be in trouble. So yeah, let's be honest.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> And here we have another person spouting nonsense. Who should we believe, you or Stanford University Medical Center? When can you vaccinate your kids? What we know as FDA prepares to consider data from studies
> 
> Who should we believe, you or the University of Rochester Medical Center? Everything you Need to Know About the Pfizer COVID Vaccine for Children Aged 12-15
> 
> ...


From your links

“the use of surgical masks were about 11% less likely than those living in control villages to develop COVID-19, “

Thats not a very impressive number, and thats being polite about it. If mask are going to be worn, why after all of this time do we not have freely available and in the hands of every single interested person plenty of N-95 mask? Not doing so is a very good sign of the signals being sent out.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You are wasting your time. The folks who want to believe the problem is because of health worker vaccine mandates aren't going to be swayed by facts or logic. They are only interested in things, even if fictitious, which reinforce their opinions and beliefs. May the blessings of COVID be upon them. It appears that the only time they change is when they are on deaths door.


I need to take my own advice and not waste my time on folks like Hiro. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. It means nothing and only annoys the pig, although annoying the pig can sometimes be amusing.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Oh yeah...
> 
> View attachment 100156


You appear to be kinda of cute when your upset mike…..


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I need to take my own advice and not waste my time on folks like Hiro. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. It means nothing and only annoys the pig, although annoying the pig can sometimes be amusing.


He’s stupid and likes to bait. He’s a good reason for the ignore function.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Subtract patients with Coronavirus from ERs and hospital admissions and you might have a few rural hospitals with problems due to staffing issues but the overwhelming majority of hospitals in the U.S. would not be in trouble. So yeah, let's be honest.


Lack of hospitals from years of profit over care, lack of staff for the same reason. Lack of staff also currently largely due to the horrible mismanagement of staff and the hospitals in general. Honest.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> From your links
> 
> “the use of surgical masks were about 11% less likely than those living in control villages to develop COVID-19, “
> 
> Thats not a very impressive number, and thats being polite about it. If mask are going to be worn, why after all of this time do we not have freely available and in the hands of every single interested person plenty of N-95 mask? Not doing so is a very good sign of the signals being sent out.


In science, one standard deviation is typically considered significant. Two standard deviations covers 95% of the data population. Speak with ANY scientist and they will tell you an 11% reduction is definitely meaningful. If you speak with an infectious disease specialist, an 11% reduction in transmission (R0) is very meaningful. And yes, I deal with an infectious disease specialist (head of department at one of the largest medical institutions in the country) because of a bone infection I had.

And as far as N95 masks being freely available, I just purchased 3 boxes of 50. Oh, you mean "free as in beer". What are you, one of those commies? Go out and buy your own.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> He’s stupid and likes to bait. He’s a good reason for the ignore function.


Still keeping it classy. Carry on.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Some of these idiots think that we think vaccine mandates are the reason for staffing shortages. Crazy unemployment benefits and minimum wage hikes had way more to do with staffing shortages than vaccine mandates.Population dynamics of a huge beneration reaching retirement age too. As well as a replacement generation that is not incredibly motivated to work. And it is happening in more than just the medical industry. I would be more concerned with the transport industry right now. Hospital rationing is not that big of a deal. Not everybody needs a hospital, but everybody needs food.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> In science, one standard deviation is typically considered significant. Two standard deviations covers 95% of the data population. Speak with ANY scientist and they will tell you an 11% reduction is definitely meaningful. If you speak with an infectious disease specialist, an 11% reduction in transmission (R0) is very meaningful. And yes, I deal with an infectious disease specialist (head of department at one of the largest medical institutions in the country) because of a bone infection I had.
> 
> And as far as N95 masks being freely available, I just purchased 3 boxes of 50. Oh, you mean "free as in beer". What are you, one of those commies? Go out and buy your own.


Keep in mind that 11% in reduction is talking about transmission. Now figure in the percentage of people in that 11% that would actually become acutely ill its about numbers so low that they can only be referenced statistically if you want people to get peoples attention. 



Have bought my own, way more than I used to keep around. I needed to restock what was used up when they were impossible to get. Only had 6 or 7 boxes when it went down. Needed them more than the silly toilet paper issue. More of a work issue than anything. 

Still does not resolve the issue of why surgical mask are even a suggestion in the process at this point in time.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

barnbilder said:


> Some of these idiots think that we think vaccine mandates are the reason for staffing shortages. Crazy unemployment benefits and minimum wage hikes had way more to do with staffing shortages than vaccine mandates. And it is happening in more than just the medical industry. I would be more concerned with the transport industry right now. Hospital rationing is not that big of a deal. Not everybody needs a hospital, but everybody needs food.


The biggest issue with nurses (shortages) is that they are getting offered up to $250 an hour as traveling nurses depending on specialty. If they are going to put up with all the ****, why not get well compensated? Also, a lot of older nurses simply retired rather than deal with all the ****.

I'm not overly concerned about shortages personally. I'm a thrivest, not a survivalist. When the first Coronavirus wave hit and PPE was in short supply, I donated a case (not a box) of surgical masks and half a case of N95s to Drs. and nurses I know. As far as food, we can go quite some time without going to town for anything. I keep on telling friends that the time to put things by is before things get crazy. Just saying.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> The biggest issue with nurses (shortages) is that they are getting offered up to $250 an hour as traveling nurses depending on specialty. If they are going to put up with all the **, why not get well compensated? Also, a lot of older nurses simply retired rather than deal with all the **.
> 
> I'm not overly concerned about shortages personally. I'm a thrivest, not a survivalist. When the first Coronavirus wave hit and PPE was in short supply, I donated a case (not a box) of surgical masks and half a case of N95s to Drs. and nurses I know. As far as food, we can go quite some time without going to town for anything. I keep on telling friends that the time to put things by is before things get crazy. Just saying.


The looters will love your place when the store shelves dry up.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

barnbilder said:


> The looters will love your place when the store shelves dry up.


Probably not so much. Most of the folks in the area (apart from the Amish) have shooting ranges on their places. We have 2 - one for hand guns and shotguns and one for rifles. My wife also laid out a combat course to run through down in the hollow. Then of course, there's our doggies. They don't like strangers. Also, If looters came to the area they'd have to get past the neighbors first. I'll leave it at that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mike in Ohio said:


> And I have all the sympathy in the world for your friend and your friend's relatives. Your friend took steps to protect themself. That is different from folks who have the means to mitigate the risk but choose not to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unvaccinated children are mask exempt. Apparently, they have some magic force field that prevents them from infecting others 😂


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

It is clear posts like the OP are started to either promote fear or start arguments. This has happened a few times with the same MO. Pick out a state with a scary story and spread it. They have to know by now these spikes are temporary and brief. Not long ago it was Missouri, but the cases dropped. Then it was Florida but the cases dropped drastically. Next it was those nasty southern states with their low vaccination rates but now cases are declining in all of them. Notice you will never see a news story announcing the situation is getting better in any state and the posters wouldn't post it if there was one.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

wr said:


> Unvaccinated children are mask exempt. Apparently, they have some magic force field that prevents them from infecting others 😂


It depends on where you are at. Examples in the U.S.: Airplane passengers over the age of 2 are required to wear masks. Our local library has the same. A lot of other places (Hospitals for example) have the same. It's left to local government and individual businesses in most states. That's why there's such a crazy patchwork of rules. The world will do what the world will do. For the most part we stay on our farm and watch with a certain amount of detachment.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

poppy said:


> It is clear posts like the OP are started to either promote fear or start arguments. This has happened a few times with the same MO. Pick out a state with a scary story and spread it. They have to know by now these spikes are temporary and brief. Not long ago it was Missouri, but the cases dropped. Then it was Florida but the cases dropped drastically. Next it was those nasty southern states with their low vaccination rates but now cases are declining in all of them. Notice you will never see a news story announcing the situation is getting better in any state and the posters wouldn't post it if there was one.


Get off your high horse, poppy. How many troll posts have you made over the years? You've been posting your conspiracy nonsense here for over a decade. If we went back and looked at all the horrible things you've claimed are about to happen we'd find that the overwhelming majority of it hasn't come about. Sheesh.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Get off your high horse, poppy. How many troll posts have you made over the years? You've been posting your conspiracy nonsense here for over a decade. If we went back and looked at all the horrible things you've claimed are about to happen we'd find that the overwhelming majority of it hasn't come about. Sheesh.


You can't deny this virus stuff is politically motivated. You need to realize most of the country is over being frightened of it. Many of us have had it and others know several people who had it and we are aware it makes a small percentage very ill and kills some but we realize we have to go on with our lives. You also need to realize very few people are anti vaccine and probably all of us have taken vaccines in our lifetime. But those vaccines were tested over time for safety. These weren't and were rushed into the population. I really hope they are okay but I and others simply do not trust government or vaccine makers in this day of greed and corruption across the board. Since July we have been to Nashville, Knoxville, and Gatlinburg Tn., several smaller cities in Indiana, and other places. Thousands of tourists and tens of thousands in others, packed restaurants and amusement sites and probably 1 or 2% wearing masks but those places fared just as well as anywhere else. I'm all for freedom. Let people make up their own minds and I fault no one for their choice.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

wr said:


> How very kind of you to wish death upon people who don't see things your way.


Yes, i agree. He's said this before.
Compassion, tolerance...nope.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

poppy said:


> You can't deny this virus stuff is politically motivated. You need to realize most of the country is over being frightened of it. Many of us have had it and others know several people who had it and we are aware it makes a small percentage very ill and kills some but we realize we have to go on with our lives. You also need to realize very few people are anti vaccine and probably all of us have taken vaccines in our lifetime. But those vaccines were tested over time for safety. These weren't and were rushed into the population. I really hope they are okay but I and others simply do not trust government or vaccine makers in this day of greed and corruption across the board. Since July we have been to Nashville, Knoxville, and Gatlinburg Tn., several smaller cities in Indiana, and other places. Thousands of tourists and tens of thousands in others, packed restaurants and amusement sites and probably 1 or 2% wearing masks but those places fared just as well as anywhere else. I'm all for freedom. Let people make up their own minds and I fault no one for their choice.


Citations poppy. Now you are playing the Hiro game... making unsupported assertions without providing references and citations and giving opinions as facts. Sure, Coronavirus was created just to mess with the U.S. political system. The entire medical research establishment around the world is political and out to get you. Science is political. Hospitals decided to get overwhelmed with COVID patients just to mess with you politically. COVID cases in South Dakota increasing 700 percent in the weeks after Sturgis was just a political ploy. You must wear a pretty big tinfoil hat.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> Yes, i agree. He's said this before.
> Compassion, tolerance...nope.


I have compassion for those who deserve compassion and that doesn't include those who suffer due to self inflicted woes. I'm tolerant of those who don't inflict themselves on others due to their poor choices. None for those who inflict illness on others. 

I have compassion for children who fall ill because they are not yet allowed to be vaccinated. I have compassion for people in 3rd world countries where the death rate from Coronavirus is many times higher in the U.S. because they lack the healthcare and hospital resources and can't get vaccinated for love nor money. They are well and truly screwed.

I'm even tolerant with someone like yourself. You don't want to get vaccinated and don't believe the healthcare data regarding outcomes? Knock your socks off. But when folks like yourself then turn around and demand medical treatment at the expense of others, I say that is the basest, most self serving hypocrisy there is. May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Probably not so much. Most of the folks in the area (apart from the Amish) have shooting ranges on their places. We have 2 - one for hand guns and shotguns and one for rifles. My wife also laid out a combat course to run through down in the hollow. Then of course, there's our doggies. They don't like strangers. Also, If looters came to the area they'd have to get past the neighbors first. I'll leave it at that.


The Amish I've been around don't need a shooting range. You describe a place that I'm very familiar with, and in my experience, your neighbors have a distinct advantage, they will aid each other. People that display certain tendencies will not likely receive aid, and in some instances are viewed as an auxiliary ammo supply. Doggies are good protein sources in Venezuela. Little whack with a baseball bat and dinner is served.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Citations poppy. Now you are playing the Hiro game... making unsupported assertions without providing references and citations and giving opinions as facts. Sure, Coronavirus was created just to mess with the U.S. political system. The entire medical research establishment around the world is political and out to get you. Science is political. Hospitals decided to get overwhelmed with COVID patients just to mess with you politically. COVID cases in South Dakota increasing 700 percent in the weeks after Sturgis was just a political ploy. You must wear a pretty big tinfoil hat.



Good grief. If you are unable to look around and see the politics in this I just don't know what to say. Think a bit. Which states locked down the hardest and pushed the mask wearing most? Now notice which party runs those states. Now look at the states that opened up first and continued to stay open while the other party bashed them constantly. Don't pretend you don't see it. You should be able to see the same party pushing the lockdowns and hysteria is the same party wanting more power to intrude in our lives, bringing in illegals, pushing trillions in new spending, wanting higher taxes, and many other things.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

barnbilder said:


> The Amish I've been around don't need a shooting range. You describe a place that I'm very familiar with, and in my experience, your neighbors have a distinct advantage, they will aid each other. People that display certain tendencies will not likely receive aid, and in some instances are viewed as an auxiliary ammo supply. Doggies are good protein sources in Venezuela. Little whack with a baseball bat and dinner is served.


I don't think taking a baseball bat to a pack of Corso Canes is the best idea in the world.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

poppy said:


> Good grief. If you are unable to look around and see the politics in this I just don't know what to say. Think a bit. Which states locked down the hardest and pushed the mask wearing most? Now notice which party runs those states. Now look at the states that opened up first and continued to stay open while the other party bashed them constantly. Don't pretend you don't see it. You should be able to see the same party pushing the lockdowns and hysteria is the same party wanting more power to intrude in our lives, bringing in illegals, pushing trillions in new spending, wanting higher taxes, and many other things.


Blah blah blah. It's really cute how you avoid providing actual facts regarding the original topic. Here's some Facebook groups you should maybe join. Convince your friends and relatives to avoid doctors, hospitals and ICUs. You can all self medicate. 'Vigilante treatments': Anti-vaccine groups push people to leave ICUs


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Blah blah blah. It's really cute how you avoid providing actual facts regarding the original topic. Here's some Facebook groups you should maybe join. Convince your friends and relatives to avoid doctors, hospitals and ICUs. You can all self medicate. 'Vigilante treatments': Anti-vaccine groups push people to leave ICUs
> 
> View attachment 100174


Typical. You can't dispute what's in front of your face so you get a bit goofy.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I don't think taking a baseball bat to a pack of Corso Canes is the best idea in the world.


Um, from what we've seen in Venezuela, lions and tigers are not immune to starving hordes.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Wishing death upon others is not acceptable.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> Wishing death upon others is not acceptable.


In all fairness, I didn’t see one post in which he wished death on anyone.
Blessings of Covid doesn’t mean death, particularly when applied to this context where people are literally calling it a bad cold and want to get it so they have the antibodies.

i also think it’s ridiculously unfair to reject scientific evidence about the shot and then expect to use up resources that employ that same scientific evidence at the expense of others who’ve done everything they can to protect themselves and others.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> In all fairness, I didn’t see one post in which he wished death on anyone.
> Blessings of Covid doesn’t mean death, particularly when applied to this context where people are literally calling it a bad cold and want to get it so they have the antibodies.
> 
> i also think it’s ridiculously unfair to reject scientific evidence about the shot and then expect to use up resources that employ that same scientific evidence at the expense of others who’ve done everything they can to protect themselves and others.


I just read that someone in the northern part of our province had a covid party and the outcome was not favorable. 

It's a bit odd in my province because it's the people 40 and under that are not getting their vaccinations and they aren't even rejecting science. They seem to cite things like, planning on it but just haven't gotten around to it. 

Albertans tend to follow the rules set out but once again, they tend to be erratic and more political than anything else. We have doctors loudly questioning why children who can't be vaccinated are competely mask exempt and allowed greater freedom than those with vaccination passports. 

Our schools are a mess and some have voluntarily closed again but we have no contact tracing because somebody feels that the vaccination passports are all it takes. At this point, it's not nearly enough, considering we're at the point where they just shut down surgeries at both children's hospitals and the miitary has been called in to help transport patients to other provinces. 

Because of the mess we have, we're seeing a lot more breakthrough cases than we should but our infections are out of control. I believe I read yesterday we have 1600+ new cases.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> I just read that someone in the northern part of our province had a covid party and the outcome was not favorable.
> 
> It's a bit odd in my province because it's the people 40 and under that are not getting their vaccinations and they aren't even rejecting science. They seem to cite things like, planning on it but just haven't gotten around to it.
> 
> ...


I had to go up to Coeur D’Alene two days ago. I drove past Kootenai Health Center ( the local hospital in news stories for having to ration care and ship some to neighboring WA) and both the Urgent Care and the Emergency Departments parking areas were absolutely packed. I continued on to the local Target and had to run in to grab a couple of things. 
it was also crowded and besides the employees, I saw one other customer besides my self wearing a mask. We actually fist bumped in solidarity. 😂

This is the bull spit that’s making people in Washington so furious. We are masking up. We are getting vaccinated. Why should our hospitals have to ration care and cancel surgeries because these morons can’t be bothered to do the smallest thing to protect others and themselves?

if there is even the slightest chance they can protect someone else by wearing a mask to Target then I don’t understand what kind of decent human being wouldn’t.

especially the so- called Christians.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> I had to go up to Coeur D’Alene two days ago. I drove past Kootenai Health Center ( the local hospital in news stories for having to ration care and ship some to neighboring WA) and both the Urgent Care and the Emergency Departments parking areas were absolutely packed. I continued on to the local Target and had to run in to grab a couple of things.
> it was also crowded and besides the employees, I saw one other customer besides my self wearing a mask. We actually fist bumped in solidarity. 😂
> 
> This is the bull spit that’s making people in Washington so furious. We are masking up. We are getting vaccinated. Why should our hospitals have to ration care and cancel surgeries because these morons can’t be bothered to do the smallest thing to protect others and themselves?
> ...


Many of our businesses require masking only and we are back to reduced capacity for most but I did notice that one of our local churches has gone the other way. Indoor services will require a vaccination passport and for anyone who doesn't agree, her services will be broadcast in the parking area. 

We're so deep into it right now that I'm pretty sure we're facing ugly lockdowns in the near future because masking, increased vaccinations and the vaccine passports have all come too late. 

I personally don't need the government to tell me what I need to do so I've been masking when I'm in town for a while now but it sure would have swayed a lot more people if our government would have been publicly disclosing the steep increase in numbers. 

I remain firmly of the opinion that our Chief Medical Officer should be totally independed of political influence. When the sharp increase was brought to her attention, she indicated simply that 'Albertans needed to learn to live with covid and we should focus on other issues'. I'm pretty sure that was code for, 'we don't want to make any harsh rules before the federal election, lest we hurt the federal conservative party.' 

Alberta is Idaho's northern counterpart right now. The younger low vaccinatio rate crowd figured they were immortal and right now, it's ugly. It's also my understanding that Saskatchewan and Manitoba are very close to dealing with the same problem.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have compassion for those who deserve compassion and that doesn't include those who suffer due to self inflicted woes. I'm tolerant of those who don't inflict themselves on others due to their poor choices. None for those who inflict illness on others.
> 
> I have compassion for children who fall ill because they are not yet allowed to be vaccinated. I have compassion for people in 3rd world countries where the death rate from Coronavirus is many times higher in the U.S. because they lack the healthcare and hospital resources and can't get vaccinated for love nor money. They are well and truly screwed.
> 
> I'm even tolerant with someone like yourself. You don't want to get vaccinated and don't believe the healthcare data regarding outcomes? Knock your socks off. But when folks like yourself then turn around and demand medical treatment at the expense of others, I say that is the basest, most self serving hypocrisy there is. May the blessings of COVID be upon you.


How do you know for a fact that i don't want to get vaccinated? I demand medical treatment for everyone, not just a select few as you advocate. 
Do you have that same attitude towards folks who's doctor's have told them not to take the vaccine because of underlying medical issues like mine? You keep saying it's my choice, clearly thats not true. You jump to conclusions and you couldn't be more wrong. 
Passive aggressive...meh.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

More Coeur D’Alene lunacy.


https://www.khq.com/news/idaho_news/coeur-dalene-public-schools-building-on-lockdown-after-protesters-attempt-to-barge-inside/article_5f36fa44-1d7a-11ec-bb69-ff98bc73d0d0.html?fbclid=IwAR1ZzPnEdS1URmI4fyE08c2zaFmSxxzVl0Iw3q3X3HwQO-Rbvs_d0oZ3cvk


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

It's funny when people directly responsible for vaccine hesitancy are now worried about it because it can effect them.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> It's funny when people directly responsible for vaccine hesitancy are now worried about it because it can effect them.


It’s even funnier when people don’t take responsibility for themselves.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

barnbilder said:


> It's funny when people directly responsible for vaccine hesitancy are now worried about it because it can effect them.


I think there are a lot of people responsible for vaccine hesitancy.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> I had to go up to Coeur D’Alene two days ago. I drove past Kootenai Health Center ( the local hospital in news stories for having to ration care and ship some to neighboring WA) and both the Urgent Care and the Emergency Departments parking areas were absolutely packed. I continued on to the local Target and had to run in to grab a couple of things.
> it was also crowded and besides the employees, I saw one other customer besides my self wearing a mask. We actually fist bumped in solidarity. 😂
> 
> This is the bull spit that’s making people in Washington so furious. We are masking up. We are getting vaccinated. Why should our hospitals have to ration care and cancel surgeries because these morons can’t be bothered to do the smallest thing to protect others and themselves?
> ...


There should be no "Religious Exemption" for taking a vaccine. There should be a "cause I don't wanna" exemption. 
I say that as someone who took the vaccine as soon as it became available to me and wouldn't hesitate to take a booster if I deem it necessary. I am not anti-vac, I am anti-forced vac


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> There should be no "Religious Exemption" for taking a vaccine. There should be a "cause I don't wanna" exemption.
> I say that as someone who took the vaccine as soon as it became available to me and wouldn't hesitate to take a booster if I deem it necessary. I am not anti-vac, I am anti-forced vac


Nope, there shouldn’t. 
you are ridiculously easily manipulated with your low-end, ******* stubbornness.
Just like your beloved senile old racist.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> Nope, there shouldn’t.
> you are ridiculously easily manipulated with your low-end, ***** stubbornness.
> Just like your beloved senile old racist.


Joe?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I wonder if we will recover from this, not the virus, the hate. I am not sure there is a reset button big enough. 

This dividing is getting out of hand


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> Nope, there shouldn’t.
> you are ridiculously easily manipulated with your low-end, ***** stubbornness.
> Just like your beloved senile old racist.


So, let me see if I got this straight. I, who sees the advantage of the vaccine, to the point where I was at the head of the line to take it, but, understands that others might not feel the same way and, being American and knowing that there is no direct danger to anyone else if they don't take the jab, am easily manipulated because I DON'T believe that the government should have the power to force others to do something that I did on my own? 
And I don't even like Joe, why would I call him my "beloved"?


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Farmerga said:


> So, let me see if I got this straight. I, who sees the advantage of the vaccine, to the point where I was at the head of the line to take it, but, understands that others might not feel the same way and, being American and knowing that there is no direct danger to anyone else if they don't take the jab, am easily manipulated because I DON'T believe that the government should have the power to force others to do something that I did on my own?
> And I don't even like Joe, why would I call him my "beloved"?


You haven't fully converted to the Branch Covidians full doctrine. You are an apostate.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I wonder if we will recover from this, not the virus, the hate. I am not sure there is a reset button big enough.
> 
> This dividing is getting out of hand


I would prefer to know who the statists are now, rather than later. No hate involved on my part, but this is actually rather helpful, imho.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> I would prefer to know who the statists are now, rather than later. No hate involved on my part, but this is actually rather helpful, imho.


No hate in me either, but is all around.

There has been a clear identification of the state's agents 

I honestly thought Americans were smarter than this. We did not fall for, we dove in head first, in the deep end.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> No hate in me either, but is all around.
> 
> There has been a clear identification of the state's agents
> 
> I honestly thought Americans were smarter than this. We did not fall for, we dove in head first, in the deep end.


Anger, envy and hatred corrode the container they are kept in. It is always prudent, however, to study your adversaries and identify them before conflict.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Hiro said:


> You haven't fully converted to the Branch Covidians full doctrine. You are an apostate.


If you go to Waco and ask the people there what it stands for, they will tell you *W*E *A*int *C*oming *O*ut. The locals really thought those guys were crazy but when forced they rallied around them.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> If you go to Waco and ask the people there what it stands for, they will tell you *W*E *A*int *C*oming *O*ut. The locals really thought those guys were crazy but when forced they rallied around them.


That is the irony of the Covidians now. @Farmerga and I aren't anti Wuflu vaccination from what I have read. I am not speaking for @Farmerga , just myself when I say these mandates are anti-American and uneducated. These vaccines should have been offered to eveyone and encouraged among those most susceptible to the Wuflu. Mandating them to everyone is counterproductive to the overall public health.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Lisa in WA said:


> I had to go up to Coeur D’Alene two days ago. I drove past Kootenai Health Center ( the local hospital in news stories for having to ration care and ship some to neighboring WA) and both the Urgent Care and the Emergency Departments parking areas were absolutely packed. I continued on to the local Target and had to run in to grab a couple of things.
> it was also crowded and besides the employees, I saw one other customer besides my self wearing a mask. We actually fist bumped in solidarity. 😂
> 
> This is the bull spit that’s making people in Washington so furious. We are masking up. We are getting vaccinated. Why should our hospitals have to ration care and cancel surgeries because these morons can’t be bothered to do the smallest thing to protect others and themselves?
> ...


There is a pastor I would avoid. He has no concept of faith.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I wonder if we will recover from this, not the virus, the hate. I am not sure there is a reset button big enough.
> 
> This dividing is getting out of hand


Like opinions and rear ends, everyone has a link and a cup of their flavored science.
The ugliness seems to be here to stay, and it is a shame.


----------



## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Just think, if they gave their Covid-19 patients Ivermectin, there wouldn't be a crisis.
> 
> I keep waiting for just one governor to stand up and be a hero.


True; rather than the ICUs being out of space, the morgues would be—oh wait, they already are.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

colourfastt said:


> True; rather than the ICUs being out of space, the morgues would be—oh wait, they already are.


Show me just 1 person who has ever died from taking Ivermectin.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> …We are masking up. We are getting vaccinated. Why should our hospitals have to ration care and cancel surgeries because these morons can’t be bothered to do the smallest thing to protect others and themselves?…


Yeah. The math checks out.








[


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Lol


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> Show me just 1 person who has ever died from taking Ivermectin.


I think the statistics I posted last week showed deaths from physician-administered horsepaste to be give or take approximately zero.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> Lol
> View attachment 100210


The face I’m making right now:


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


Is that kind of like “Died of Ivermectin vs. Died With Ivermectin”?

You Branch Covidians sure like that move. If you had a wrestler, that would be his Special Move.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


But not from ivermectin. I don't know if there has ever been a drug that worked 100% of the time. Taking Ivermectin late in Covid-19 often helps, but Covid-19 is some other disease like pneumonia at that point. It is often too late for an antiviral to make any difference as the disease has progressed beyond the viral stage and the anti-inflammatory properties of Ivermectin can only help so much.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Show me just 1 person who has ever died from taking Ivermectin.











2 New Mexicans have died of Ivermectin toxicity, state health officials say


ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – State health leaders say more people are taking Ivermectin to treat COVID-19. In some cases, it’s been deadly.The New Mexico Department of Health said two people in New Mexico have died from Ivermectin toxicity. Not much is known about either patient — but one of them was...




www.kob.com





*2 New Mexicans have died of Ivermectin toxicity, state health officials say*


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)




----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> 2 New Mexicans have died of Ivermectin toxicity, state health officials say
> 
> 
> ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – State health leaders say more people are taking Ivermectin to treat COVID-19. In some cases, it’s been deadly.The New Mexico Department of Health said two people in New Mexico have died from Ivermectin toxicity. Not much is known about either patient — but one of them was...
> ...


Sorry, I just can't resist.
Is New Mexicans a new term for illegals?


----------



## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


Ivermectin was tested when this virus first started and many died and it was proven that it did not work and without it people did better. That is when it was decided not to give it to people. The protection used now by getting the two shots help by 94 %.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> I wonder if we will recover from this, not the virus, the hate. I am not sure there is a reset button big enough.
> 
> This dividing is getting out of hand


It's beyond that point. The gossip, hate, twisting truths and demands have made the world a pretty awful place, considering that not only are we in the midst of a serious mental health crisis.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


While certainly not as many, we have fully vaccinated people in morgues right now too.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


You are either not capable of basic topic comprehension in order to follow this conversation or you are willfully trying to mislead. Reread the posts if need be and thank you for your participation.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You are either not capable of basic topic comprehension in order to follow this conversation or you are willfully trying to mislead. Reread the posts if need be and thank you for your participation.


LOL. I said what I wanted and it was on point. Just not your point.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> 2 New Mexicans have died of Ivermectin toxicity, state health officials say
> 
> 
> ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – State health leaders say more people are taking Ivermectin to treat COVID-19. In some cases, it’s been deadly.The New Mexico Department of Health said two people in New Mexico have died from Ivermectin toxicity. Not much is known about either patient — but one of them was...
> ...


no response to this?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Since it’s claimed that people who die of other things and happen to also have Covid are being counted as Covid deaths, I’m guessing there are lmore ivermectin deaths being counted as Covid deaths.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> no response to this?


Sure. 
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Do we have any evidence of doctor-prescribed, or even a self-administered appropriate dose killing anyone?

There have been reports of people dying from, or at least in very suspicious proximity to receiving St. Fauci’s ineffective vaccine.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> Since it’s claimed that people who die of other things and happen to also have Covid are being counted as Covid deaths, I’m guessing there are lmore ivermectin deaths being counted as Covid deaths.


That’s not a claim. It’s a demonstrated fact.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Sure.
> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
> 
> Do we have any evidence of doctor-prescribed, or even a self-administered appropriate dose killing anyone?
> ...


Oh, now we’re narrowing it down? 
Funny how that works.
“No one has died from ivermectin!”
”okay! No one who has purple skin has died from ivermectin!”


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s not a claim. It’s a demonstrated fact.


So I’m likely right. 
lots of ivermectin poisonings being counted as Covid deaths.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Sure.
> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
> 
> Do we have any evidence of doctor-prescribed, or even a self-administered appropriate dose killing anyone?
> ...


which vaccine has actually and verifiably (from non-kook sources) resulted in death?
Pfizer, Moderna?
J&J maybe from blood clots?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The New Mexico Department of Health said two people in New Mexico have died from Ivermectin toxicity. Not much is known about either patient -- but one of them was battling a severe case of COVID-19. 

That is the only pertinent information in the article. It seems odd that so many people are listed as covid deaths while having had pre exisiting issues, yet the one patient mentioned here was known to have had a severe case of Covid, yet listed as dying due to Ivermectin.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> LOL. I said what I wanted and it was on point. Just not your point.


Ah, so it was the former.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> Oh, now we’re narrowing it down?
> Funny how that works.
> “No one has died from ivermectin!”
> ”okay! No one who has purple skin has died from ivermectin!”


Prior to your comment, G qualified the challenge.


GTX63 said:


> I think the statistics I posted last week showed deaths from physician-administered horsepaste to be give or take approximately zero.


@MoonRiver was the only one who asked the broader question about anyone having died from any exposure to ivermectin, so I suppose you’re looking for her response, then. I just responded since you specifically asked for one.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> no response to this?


Need to close the borders so we don't keep getting new Mexicans.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Prior to your comment, G qualified the challenge.
> 
> 
> @MoonRiver was the only one who asked the broader question about anyone having died from any exposure to ivermectin, so I suppose you’re looking for her response, then. I just responded since you specifically asked for one.


Please don’t ascribe MoonRiver to my gender.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Need to close the borders so we don't keep getting new Mexicans.


You can close a door that doesn't exist.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> So I’m likely right.
> lots of ivermectin poisonings being counted as Covid deaths.


Could be some. As desperate as the CDC and CNN have been to vilify ivermectin, I’m sure we would have seen a hard count, with full patient profile detailing how each was a Trump-voting deplorable doody-head.

I bet we can post more links to people who died right after getting the “vaccine” than right after taking ivermectin.

Shall we?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> The New Mexico Department of Health said two people in New Mexico have died from Ivermectin toxicity. Not much is known about either patient -- but one of them was battling a severe case of COVID-19.
> 
> That is the only pertinent information in the article. It seems odd that so many people are listed as covid deaths while having had pre exisiting issues, yet the one patient mentioned here was known to have had a severe case of Covid, yet listed as dying due to Ivermectin.


 so you think, (given the amount of stupidity in the world) that it’s outside the realm of possibility that some peckerwood poisoned himself with ivermectin?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> which vaccine has actually and verifiably (from non-kook sources) resulted in death?
> Pfizer, Moderna?
> J&J maybe from blood clots?


This one is pretty compelling:









13-year-old dies in sleep after getting COVID-19 vaccine; CDC investigating


“He passed away in the middle of the night at home,” Burages said.




www.google.com





ETA: I’ve said before that I don’t think the vaccine is all that dangerous at the individual level (despite being monumentally stupid at the species level), but I also don’t find it surprising that any experimental drug, administered so broadly and with so little study, is doing to kill a few people. That said, ivermectin, taken in proper dosing does appear to be less dangerous than the vaccine.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Could be some. As desperate as the CDC and CNN have been to vilify ivermectin, I’m sure we would have seen a hard count, with full patient profile detailing how each was a Trump-voting deplorable doody-head.
> 
> I bet we can post more links to people who died right after getting the “vaccine” than right after taking ivermectin.
> 
> Shall we?


People have always claimed that vaccines cause whatever they got after their innoculations.
Are you still buying that the MMR causes autism?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa in WA said:


> which vaccine has actually and verifiably (from non-kook sources) resulted in death?
> Pfizer, Moderna?
> J&J maybe from blood clots?


AZ has resulted in blood clot deaths in Canada, which is why many of us waited until we had other options.

I do know that the sheet I received when I had my first vaccination, indicated a small percentage of vaccine related deaths and I think the numbers cited are found here: 

COVID-19 vaccine safety: Weekly report on side effects following immunization - Canada.ca 



Up to and including September 17, 2021, a total of *191 reports with an outcome of death were reported* following vaccination. Although these deaths occurred after being vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine, they are not necessarily related to the vaccine. Based on the medical case review using the WHO-UMC causality assessment categories, it has been determined that:
74 of these deaths are unlikely linked to a COVID-19 vaccine
69 deaths could not be assessed due to insufficient information
42 deaths are still under investigation
6 deaths followed a diagnosis of TTS (refer to the TTS bullet above)


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> so you think, (given the amount of stupidity in the world) that it’s outside the realm of possibility that some peckerwood poisoned himself with ivermectin?


I believe people self medicate themselves to death everyday.
The article doesn't give any more information than someone with one foot in the covid bucket was filling their gut with dewormer.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> I believe people self medicate themselves to death everyday.
> The article doesn't give any more information than someone with one foot in the covid bucket was filling their gut with dewormer.


The other person apparently did not have Covid and died of ivermectin toxicity.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

101pigs said:


> Ivermectin was tested when this virus first started and many died and it was proven that it did not work and without it people did better. That is when it was decided not to give it to people. The protection used now by getting the two shots help by 94 %.


Really?
Got a link?

I do:








Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19


After COVID-19 emerged on U.S shores, providers began reviewing the emerging basic science, translational, and clinical data to identify potentially effective treatment options. In addition, a multitude of both novel and repurposed therapeutic agents ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov






> Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If true I can go up a few dozen posts and make the correction. The headline was longer tha the pertinent information in the article, so there is that.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> People have always claimed that vaccines cause whatever they got after their innoculations.
> Are you still buying that the MMR causes autism?


Did I ever say that it does?
When did you peg me as an anti-vaxxer?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> the hate


It has always been there, just under the surface. In times like these, people will show you their true colors. I think it is a good thing, when you can see peoples true colors, you know just where you stand.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Lisa in WA said:


> Oh, now we’re narrowing it down?
> Funny how that works.
> “No one has died from ivermectin!”
> ”okay! No one who has purple skin has died from ivermectin!”


I use a lot of ivermectin on my Cattle and pigs. Works on them for worms, etc. However just use it for 1 year and then switch to another drug for 1 year before going back to ivermectin.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm still wondering what the lethal dose of ivomec is. I know I've had enough pour-on to worm 7,000 pounds of cattle in my muck boot before. Gave a 1200 pound dose of paste to a fifty pound, very nasty tempered goat one time, while trying not to get stabbed to death with a goat horn. It lived. Had a puppy decide to eat most of a 1200 pound dose of paste wormer, and it lived. I know there is a lethal dose, as there is for anything, but it would be so high that you would have to be really stupid to hit it, so you are talking ivomec might kill someone that would have died anyway from trying to make toast while taking a bath.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

101pigs said:


> I use a lot of ivermectin on my Cattle and pigs. Works on them for worms, etc. However just use it for 1 year and then switch to another drug for 1 year before going back to ivermectin.


yeah, I used it on my horses, sheep etc. not my border collie because it can kill them.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Did I ever say that it does?
> When did you peg me as an anti-vaxxer?


I haven’t. 
but these same arguments are used by anti vaxxers. 
VAERS reports can be done by anyone about anything.
Correlation does not imply causation no matter how the real anti-vaxxers like to say it does. 
And to a large extent, the anti-Covid vaxxers.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> It has always been there, just under the surface. In times like these, people will show you their true colors. I think it is a good thing, when you can see peoples true colors, you know just where you stand.


you seem to manage some real hating yourself.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> but I also don’t find it surprising that any *experimental* drug, administered so broadly and with so little study, is doing to kill a few people. .


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> you seem to manage some real hating yourself.


Yes I do. I hate my enemies and I love my friends. And I don't care who knows it.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There was a rotavirus vaccine that went through ten years of trials, hit the market, and then after enough reports of adverse reactions, that were investigated thouroughly enough to satisfy the powers that be, the vaccine was taken off the market. Took a while. It's as hard to prove a vaccine is dangerous as it is to prove it's safe, maybe harder. If you die after getting a shot, and you weren't in a lab setting, they can't be sure it was related to the shot. Takes a lot of people dying, or having adverse reactions to buck the lab data that proves it is safe and effective, because it is not lab data, it is merely anecdotal evidence.

Gardisil was another. Lyme disease vaccine as well. Here is an article, warning us not to trust the corona virus vaccine, from CNN








Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a coronavirus vaccine now would be 'colossally stupid'


Vaccine experts are warning the federal government against rushing out a coronavirus vaccine before testing has shown it's both safe and effective. Decades of history show why they're right.




www.cnn.com


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> View attachment 100218


That doesn’t counter anything I’ve posted. I’ve said that I didn’t think the vaccine was very dangerous at the individual level, and the specific statement you quoted was that it was (a) experimental, (b) administered broadly, and (c) not well studied. All of those things are true.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I haven’t.
> but these same arguments are used by anti vaxxers.
> VAERS reports can be done by anyone about anything.
> *Correlation does not imply causation* no matter how the real anti-vaxxers like to say it does.
> And to a large extent, the anti-Covid vaxxers.


…except when it’s in reference to someone taking ivermectin?

And, you did specifically ask me if I still thought MMR caused autism.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> …except when it’s in reference to someone taking ivermectin?
> 
> And, you did specifically ask me if I still thought MMR caused autism.


I was specifically answering MRs post. I don’t think I said ivermectin was dangerous, did I?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That doesn’t counter anything I’ve posted. I’ve said that I didn’t think the vaccine was very dangerous at the individual level, and the specific statement you quoted was that it was (a) experimental, (b) administered broadly, and (c) not well studied. All of those things are true.


It counters the experimental accusation.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Yes I do. I hate my enemies and I love my friends. And I don't care who knows it.


Kind of illustrates how men are driven by feelings and emotion.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Lisa in WA said:


> Kind of illustrates how men are driven by feelings and emotion.


I see men using facts instead of emotions much more often than women.
Women are much more about feelz and emotion than men are, just saying. I just asked my wife, she concured, so it must be true!😳


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Im in California right now. Had lunch with some friends, Ben and Loretta. Ben sells flooring and Loretta is a critical care nurse at a local hospital. She's been at this same hospital for 12 years. 
As told by her, her hospital counts unvaccinated as anyone who was not vaccinated, had 1 vaccination but not 2, had 2 vaccinations but the 2nd was less than 2 weeks ago. I found that interesting. 
As of this morning they had 60 beds in the covid wing. 22 were occupied, 17 were unvaccinated, 5 were breakthrough. They have 12 icu beds 5 were used, 3 on ventilators, 1 of those were vaccinated. 
No deaths in 8 days. Ymmv


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


So did people who got the jab. Your point is?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> People took Ivermectin and still died. There are in the morgues.


Lots of people who didn't take Ivermectin died, as well.
There are in the morgues, too.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> ...I know there is a lethal dose, as there is for anything, but it would be so high that you would have to be really stupid to hit it, so you are talking ivomec might kill someone that would have died anyway from trying to make toast while taking a bath.


All's well that ends well.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> Kind of illustrates how men are driven by feelings and emotion.


Sometimes.


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