# CL/CAE - Before You Buy A Goat Info



## greenacres

I am combining the two posts on CL and CAE.

What is CL?
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=11856 (this link appears to be deleted when you click on it. Even I don't see it)

What is CAE?
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=11855


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## BuffaloGal

Some quick articles from Onion Creek Ranch;
CAE - CAPRINE ARTHRITIC ENCEPHALITIS -http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles/cae.htm

CL - CASEOUS LYMPHADENITIS -
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles/cl.htm

Treating CL with Formalin -
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles/formalin.htm

And finally, one covering abscesses in general -
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles/abscess.htm


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## susanne

my understanding from cae is that it is very similar to the human hiv. that means it is also transmitted through mating. how many does are getting cae after breeding and how long does it take to test positiv if the buck was infected? and how about the buck, can he get infected if he is getting breed to a cae positiv doe?
i got two nubian does that are breed to a fb boer. none of them were tested before. when would be the best time to test them? and if positive can i still have negative kids? i will get another doe next week and she is tested negative. since she went to a nubian buck wich was probable not tested how big is the possibiliy that she is getting cae? 
if i have to bottle feed the kids with pastorised colostrum they will not get enough antibody for building a healthy imune system. also some vitamins are heat sensitive. how to deal with this problem?
there are so many articels about cae on the internet but none of them are going really in dept. i'm a little bit confused 
susanne


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## Dream Acres Va

CAE is Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis Virus (aka Big Knee): A viral disease encouterned in North America and Europe. In France the disease is present in 80 to 90 percent of heards, but is much less prevalent in the British Isles. The virus is a retrovirus (lentivirus) and has a long incubation period of up to severl years. It is extremely similar to but distinct from maedi-visna in sheep. Virologists argue as to whether or not is is a different vius. In the UK, after the disease was recognized, many goatkeepers carried out blodd tests on their herds, eliminated reactors and the spread of the disease was fairly limited. Goatkeepers must remain ever diligent, however, because symptomless carriers may introduce the virus into clean herds.

SYMPTOMS: arthritis affecting many joints is the predominant features of CAE ... in mature goats. usually the front legs are involved, the carpi (knees) being most often affected. The other joints, hocks, stifles, fetlocks and hips may be involved. Symptoms can range from milkd to severe, from slight swelling of the knees to sudden severe lamenees, in which case the animals should be put odown on humanbe grounds. The reduced milk production is estimated to be 100 kg in a first lactation. Sometimes the udder is affected becoming hard and unproductive. The encephalitis part of the disease affects growing kids aged from 1-5 months, causeing nervous signs. The kids become unable to stand, the head is twisted to one disde, and when downs they may show paddling symptoms with their forelegs.

The disease process...tends to lodge in the bone marrow...activated by stress. The strain of the kidding and lactation is probably the main cause in dairy goats....

Spread of the disease
As with AIDS, it would seem that infected cells have to be transferred between goats in order to pass on the virus. The most likely time of infection is probably around kidding, when transmission occurs from the doe to the kids in the colostrum and nasal secrations. Casual contat is unlikely to result in the infection being passed on. Infection of kids in the uterus is thought to be rare. There is no evidence of transmission by semen from infected male goats to the females. It is theoretically possible to transmit the disease by needles from goat to the next...by using the same (unsterile) needle. Use a new needle for each goat.

Control
There is no treatment for this condition. Periodic blood testing of goats should be following by the culling of any reacting to the agar gel immuno-diffusion test (AGIDT). The ELISA test is also useful in detecting infected animals earlier than the AGIDT...more expensive. If the herd is known to be infected then kids should be removed from the doe immediately after kidding, before she can lick them...The colostrum is then milked from the udder and ... heated to 56 degrees C for one hour to destroy any virus...when at a suitable temp. the colostrum is fed to the kid. From then on the kid is fed ....(formula).... 

CL is Caseous Lymphadenitis: ...worldwide problem and it affects both sheep and goats. In countries such as France and the USA, the prevalence of the disease is high...in some infected herds half of the goats may have abscesses in the lymph nodes...front part of body is mainly affted, so the most commonly seen swelling is under the chin (the submandibular lymph node)...disease is chronic-a nuisance rather than a catastrophe.

Diagnosis
a smear or culture from the lumph node abscess yields C. pseudontuberculosis. In countries where disease is widespread, diagnosis is often by clinical inspection, the swellings being in constant sites, always following the lymphatic system.

Spread
The agent can be spread from the discharing abscess on an infected goat to other goats directly, or to the surroundings and hence to other goats. Infection can be by mouth, or through smallcuts and abrasions in the skin....

Control
-Take care when introducing goats with unusual swellings into your herd.
-Avoid contact at shows and sales.
-Avoid all physical causes of injury that help to allow infection of the skin - sharp corners, splintered woods, etc.
-Remember transmission can occur through instructments, tatto equipment, ear tags, etc.
-Vaccines. No vaccine of proven efficacy has yet been developed (although there are vaccines on the market).

Note: Many different germs can be involved with abscess formation, but this disease is a specific type of infection.

(from The Goatskeeper's Veterinary Bood by Peter Dunn, 3rd ed).

Hope this helps.


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## Westwood

May I make a comment?

The problem is that we're putting down or not breeding does that are a-symtomatic for CAE. 50 titers they're not positive, and 51 they are. Seems to me that we're throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Controversy? I'm used to it. lol.


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## Pony

Hi, just lurking here, but I have a question:

Is this disease species specific?

Thanks,
Pony!


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## goatgirl92

my question too!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Sorry didn't even notice this thread was active. Yes it's CAE in goats, and it's OPP in sheep, and yes goats can test positive for OPP and sheep can test positive for CAE. Vicki


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## Goat Freak

I know that what the people above said is true, but I also herd that it can be spred from the mother to the kids by milk period, not just from the colostruel.


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## lilfarmerbp

Hi All,
New here from WVa. Having a problem with my oldest Alpine nanny. Her face swelled up and then was completely down the next day, did this 2 different times and now is doing it again. It has been very hot here but the rest of the goats seem fine. She has 1 kid still nursing. Have wormed her with an oral dose of ivermectin then gave her a shot of it as well. She is still eating and drinking as usual. Any advice. The nearest vet to us that treats goats is about 2 hours away. If I can treat this at home it will be alot less stress on everyone. Thanks


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## jvjfarm

Lilfarmer....I had a doe do this...it's bottle jaw probably...caused by a high worm load....look at her inside eyelids..are they whitish? I would try a higher dose of ivermectin, or Ivermectin Plus or use valbazen (something the worms might not be resitant to). I'd give her some bcomplex, and maybe some sort of iron supplement. Once I gave my doe a strong dose of a different wormer, her face went down and she was fine. (her face looked like it had been badly stung!)


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## Finney

I have a friend who is treating the CL lumps with apple cider vinegar, seems to be helping. Is there anything or anyone out there that has been successful at stopping the spread of CL?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You can treat the lumps themselves in many ways. You can lance them, spray them with 7% iodine to help them dry up quickly, keeping all the exude, pus, papertowles sperate and burning all the material, while having the animal in quaranteen, since the material coming from the lump is what infects other goats, your boots and dogs and chickens even track this around. You can also remove the whole lump, stitch up the skin and then you don't need quranteen since the exude is not draining from the wound. There are folks on the boer lists who inject the lump with formaline before it ripens, it is supposed to dry it up.

And then there is the big BUT! No matter how many times you clear up those outward signs of CL, the lumps, the goats still carries the disease in her lymph gland. Most lumps are seen after the stress of the move, the stress of kidding, etc. So after the first lump you may never see again another lump on the doe, but that does not mean she is ever cured. There is no cure. You can increase the does immunity so she is not showing outward lumps anymore, but it is not a cure.

The worst problem with CL is that you will not be able to catch all abscess all the time. Esepcially with breeds who carry alot of hair or bucks who carry alot of flesh and skin over their necks (folds) and in their brisket. Most folks find their first abscess after it has burst. Why testing and only purchasing from folks who have done away with this in their herds, or at least like with CAE purchasing from folks who have like minds about having zoonic communicable disease on their place. Because there are those who don't care. Vicki


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## cnmfarm

How do you test for CL? When i had goats in the past my favorite Nubian was diagnosed with it. I quarantined her and the vet gave an injection of formaline into the lump and it went away..but it came back. It was oozing badly and I ended up having her put down. It was heartbreaking and at that time I decided this was Not for me. But I miss the goats so recently purchased another Nubian who will be coming home after being bred to a Boer buck. I know this breeder is Very careful about the health of her goats and tests for CAE, the doe I bought is being tested for CAE before I bring her home. How do I test for CL? Thanks.

Cindy


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## hermitfarmer

I had a terrible experience with this typeof infection/disease. I lost my rear end on a number of goats(25) to this annoying infection. I treated my goats by lancing the "lump" and taking all of the goo/puss with me on a paper towel and burned everything to include the straw after the lump dried. It got to be a too hard for me physically to keep up with the number of quarientine goats. I learned the hard way inspect and ask questions from the person who you buy from or expose your herd to. I lost not only money but a good friend over this. I do have one question are the lumps in the neck and shoulder area or are they all over? My experience is that a good hornet can cause the same results for a day or two and then it goes away the lump haunts you in your sleep. Get a smaple to your vet so you know for sure. I was not sure if this is passed on in the milk but I think it is. Adios and be careful of who you deal with.


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## Lost-Nation

. . . & what's Johnnes & what's Mycoplasma & what's Brucellosis & what's Type-A Clostridia & what's Staph. Aureus & . . . LOL! Ain't this goat husbandry stuff FUN to try to figure out?! 

Re CAE:

There is SO much conflicting information out there that it is difficult for even the most well-read, astute breeder to develop a seemingly educated stance on the subject. I have researched this topic endlessly & have decided that I can only refer to myself as "Agnostic", LOL. . . "I do not know & I do not believe it is possible to know."

Points to ponder while trying to derive your own conclusions . . . 

- WSU (commonly considered the "End All Be All" when it comes to CAE) states "The risk of spreading CAE virus by sexual contact is considered rare if at all." Assuming they're referring to hand-breeding thus allowing us to rule out lateral transmission possibilities . . . since it's transmitted via blood cells, it'd be reasonable to assume that in order for it to be transmitted sexually, some type of "extinuating circumstance" at the time of breeding (eg: injury to both penis & vagina) would need to be present. As far as transmission via A.I., from what I've gathered, it's not carried in the semen itself but there has been discussion on old semen from "back in the day" when using milk for processing was a popular method. Either way, the extreme temperatures involved in semen storage would likely destroy any virii that might be present. (Please note: the latter statements being "2nd hand information" & not something I derived from "scientifically oriented" material. If anyone *knows* otherwise, please post & include your sources, b/c . . . I'm always seeking more solid information to add to my repertoire.)

- There are several strains of CAE - some pathogenic, some latent.

- Thanks to the conscientious & diligent husbandry practices of our "Forefathers" since the discovery of CAE, it would seem that the majority of the pathogenic strains have been "bred out". Since statistics (10 year old statistics at that) indicate that only 10% of today's CAE+ animals actually get "clinical", w/ an even fewer number of that 10% actually dying from the disease, it would be reasonable to assume that the other 90% are apparently negative &/or are carrying a natural resistance. Hence: animals testing positive for the antibody but remaining disease-free - never exhibiting a symptom & living long, healthy, normal lives. There are breeders out there striving to breed CAE-resistant animals . . . we just don't hear abt them b/c of all of the "hype" surrounding everything.

- There is a myriad of conflicting information going around regarding transmission - direct vs. lateral. To add to the confusion, veteran breeders personally experienced in the disease provide information that directly conflicts w/ the so-called "scientific findings" on the disease. WSU states that, aside from the obvious colostrum/milk mode we're all aware of, that it's oftentimes directly transmitted due to "operator error", specifically mentioning things like: using new needles/syringes for each animal when vaccinating, cleaning tattoo equipment between animals, etc. I'd be inclined to add to that: improper "biosecurity measures" when it comes to milking procedures, especially machine milking without flushing inflations/hoses between each doe. They also state that lateral transmission usually involves some type of "repeated, direct contact", since the virus can only live inside blood cells &, once outside the body, only survives for a very short time. . . indicating that it isn't quite as readily transmitted laterally as is often touted. Something that I was particularly interested to learn is that water causes the blood cells to burst, rendering the virus non-infectious. This would support instituting the practice of flushing inflations/hoses between milkers & would somewhat allow us to rule out the common belief that community water receptacles are a main source of transmission - as far as from the drinking water itself. Since WSU also states that "CAE can be spread via nasal secretions and saliva if there are blood cells in the secretion" - it'd be reasonable to assume that we could consider other "secretions" that could contain blood cells as a source, too. Perhaps that is where the "repeated, direct contact" statement would apply as far as lateral transmission, due to animals coming into immediate contact w/ those secretions (eg: via a dry part of a water receptacle, feed receptacle, etc.; lounging in the "piles" they like to congregate in, etc.).

We don't test. If the virus were better understood, the information more "scientifically solid" & the tests more reliable, we might consider it just for curiosity's sake, so we'd know where we stood & be able to utilize that information accordingly. We would not cull an otherwise healthy animal merely for a positive test result. To us, that'd be indicative of a good, strong immune system & . . . hardiness is an important factor in our breeding program. On this farm (aside from faults or things of that nature that any breeder would cull for), animals are culled for ill-thrift &/or based upon symptoms of something we don't wish to waste time/energy/etc. dealing with. We do however "Practice Prevention" strictly . . . as far as flushing inflations/hoses in between each milker & taking great care in the handling of raw milk; catching breed-stock kids at birth, 'pasteurize-raising' them away from the adult herd, etc. That's done not just for CAE purposes but, since we show & who knows what you get exposed to when you take your animals off-farm & intermingle w/ other herds & all of their cooties . . . do what we can to protect our animals from all of the other disease possibilities lurking around out there. . . many of which are much nastier & more frightening than CAE, IMO!

= = = = = =

Re: Caseous Lymphadenitis - I don't have any what I'd consider "hands on" experience with the disease but I have been seriously contemplating vaccinating for it since realizing how prevalent it is in our community's herds. Breeders around here are frighteningly ignorant abt disease just in general, not just in goats but in ALL livestock. Worse, our area vets imply that most of the issues are merely "normal goat stuff" - & when it comes to C.L., actually tell people that "it's more of an inconvenience than anything else" & not all that worrisome. & yes, I actually had a vet say those very words to me when I'd taken a goat into him for examination a few years ago . . . a goat that I'd paid a pretty penny for AND shipped cross-country. Naturally, only to discover "a suspicious lump" on her that her seller told me was nothing to worry abt. "Probably just a splinter that got infected." Thankfully, she'd been kept in quarantine here b/c that vet looked at the lump & said "Yep, looks like a C.L. abscess", informed me that he had it in his sheep & gave me the "more of an inconvenience than . . ." line - but said he wanted to get a sample to send off for analysis to be sure. I told him no WAY was he poking that thing & then expecting me to bring her possibly-cootie-spewing self back to MY farm, jeopardizing the rest of my healthy herd I've worked so hard on! I asked him where the nearest meat auction was being conducted that day. He thought I was out of my mind for being that quick to meat out a valuable, quality animal. But I did just that - left his office & headed straight for the nearest meat sale (50 miles one way) & got a whopping $28-something bucks for that goat. Not even enough to cover my vet bill, much less the gas involved in traipsing around all day. & nope, the jerk I bought her from didn't feel it was necessary to "make right" on the situation, either, so . . . $500-something bucks out the window, there. But . . . at least had the peace of mind that I'd "done the right thing" for my herd's well-being.

That being said, I'm not sure what I'd do if I ended up w/ it in my herd to be honest. The longer I'm in goats & the more veterans' brains I pick the more unsure I get on how I'D react, LOL. I was talking to an extremely well-respected, lonnnnnng-time breeder a couple of months ago & this topic came up. I was very surprised to finally get some honest insight, esp. since we all know that so many things are kept "hush hush". He said that it's definitely out there & probably more prevalent than I think - even in real popular show herds who tout otherwise. Further, that no matter HOW careful you are that eventually, "everyone" ends up w/ things of this nature at one time or another. He said that nobody would admit it but that most would NOT cull a valuable animal for C.L.. When I asked how the heck you'd handle something like that, he said that he personally just keeps a completely separate area on his farm, away from "regular traffic", that they're very careful abt, "biosecurity-wise" & . . . that's how you handle something like that.

Whew, scary stuff, huh? I kinda liked being ignorant better, LOL. 


Regards,
Sarah


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I don't believe that disease is in the large show herds, like most would like folks to think. I think as a whole we have done really well as a group to rid ourselves of CAE and CL. I do know of someone who has chronic CAE and CL in his herd, but we openly kept our animals away from his at shows, to the point of being very glad his stock was at the end of the line, least our does weren't touched before his....and we carry wetones with bleach on them to shows he frequents, if a judge touches his goats than comes to ours (he has moved into Lousiana so dealing with him for us is over). But we all see private herds with CAE and CL, the miss managment that goes right along with it and usually filth keeps most folks from purchasing from them anyway, especially when they have the chance to see a well maintained herd first and expect farms visited after that to live up to at least part of what they saw at so and so's.

CL is nearly impossible to get rid of without the highest of biosecurity which includes no stock dogs or free range hens in the pens. Extra boots and a totally seperate stock of supplies in their barn. No feet from anyone can visit from that pen to anywhere else on the property, least the exude in the bedding is spread. All bedding has to be composted on their own property and only perfectly composted material can ever make it's way onto the clean barn. It's nearly an impossible feat.

I would never even consider vaccinating my healthy stock for this disease, I spray down pens before my goats go in them at shows, and their feet are cleaned before they come home. They are also not allowed to lay down before they are milked out after showing, until they have had their feet cleaned, and their teats sealed shut.

I wish I had the extra stalls to keep my showstock seperate on my farm. With all the pnemonia at shows this late summer and early winter, showing was crazy scarry! We dodged the bullet but alot of herds didn't.

CAE chornic disease and the abscess of CL would put a larger breeder and someone who showed alot out of business. Win very much and most other breeders would be none to happy to blast you all over the internet and grapevine. But also, shave for a show in the spring and a CL abscess would make the doe stay home the rest of the year...who could afford that? Swollen knees from CAE or the harm it does to the udder would also ruin the doe for a show home.

Those who say a doe with CAE is just as healthy as her negative herdmate is not telling the whole truth. Less milk, severly congested udders at kidding, less quality of life, especially if they are chronic which most does eventully do go there, only one doe in the years back when we battled CAE (along with everyone else) was positive yet never went chronic and was put down at 12 as a very lovely doe still, she simply would just not settle anymore.

Although folks on this list state they aren't looking for showstock, I think the very best place to find good stock to start with is a show home. Our reputation rides on all the goats we sell, no matter if it is to a show home or a private person looking for a family milker.

I know for myself I have purchased only one doe who went on, in quaranteen to test positive for CAE in at least 10 years. I also don't purchase from those with bad reputations, and I also don't purchase from those who I don't trust their managment or who do not at the very least, test and use CAE prevention. Now we will be adding those who are not part of the ID registry  Add that to they have to be Nubian, Purebred, test negative for disease once here, be tattooed and registered with ADGA...the list is getting longer each year 

All disease has to be managed, some simply choose to ignore it, at least eithically they need to let folks know this is their choice. It is very mainstream in boards to slice and dice and vaccinate for CL. Both in my old boer herd and in my dairy herd, I could never manage a disease like this. In many ways the way in which disease is allowed to be handled in the US is really the reason why we need federal guidelines to handle animal tracking. We all want all these rights to do everything just as we will, but when dealing with communicable disease, most turn a blind eye. Now nobody will be able to deny the animal came from their farm. The part I am looking forward to seeing is the list of diseases tract, will be curious if CL will be on this list. Vicki


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## manygoatsnmore

Omitted answer - as it was already covered in an earlier post.


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## Oat Bucket Farm

,.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

so, I have a question. people cant get these can they?
and what if you have a milk goat that ends up being cae or cl positive and you have been drinking raw. gonna die? knees gonna explode? what happens to people?


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## tailwagging

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> so, I have a question. people cant get these can they?
> and what if you have a milk goat that ends up being cae or cl positive and you have been drinking raw. gonna die? knees gonna explode? what happens to people?


Good question.


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## jBlaze

Go to the Washington State University CAE website, they are the ones doing most of the research on CAE.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx

"9_. Is it okay to drink raw milk containing the infectious CAE virus?
There is NO evidence that the CAE virus is transmissible to humans. However, there are other serious human pathogens which have been transmitted through raw milk. Consult your veterinarian regarding the public health hazards of consuming raw milk_."


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## sunnygrl

is there any news on the CL vaccine, that was supposed to be ready this spring/summer?


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## 6e

sunnygrl said:


> is there any news on the CL vaccine, that was supposed to be ready this spring/summer?


When we talked to Colorado Serum a few months back, they have a vaccine already for goats. They are waiting on FDA approval which they expected the first part of 2009. 

The only difference between the goat vaccine and the sheep vaccine however is the serum in which the vaccine is suspended. The sheep vaccine has an oil base which some goats have a reaction to. The new goat version will not have that oil base. But the vaccine will basically be the same. It is a "dead" vaccine.


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## barelahh

sunnygrl said:


> is there any news on the CL vaccine, that was supposed to be ready this spring/summer?


colorado serum company says that their waiting on the FDA and they think it will be approved by early next year. Hopefully if it is then folks can start vaccinating and it won't be so hard on their goats and it should start the decline in CL in the goat world. Once folks start vaccinating for it, time will take care of it.


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## barelahh

I got off the phone with the PAVL lab, talked for about 20 min with the doc there, and he was very enlightening. 
Basically he said that from what he has seen and the research most of the cl cases in goats are due to goats licking. THey see a abcess rupture on another goat and go sniff and lick. 
He said that CL is manageable, and not the dreaded disease that everyone tends to make it out to be. If you use common sense and monitor your herd like your supposed to, then it shouldn't affect the rest of the herd mates. 
His suggestion was to watch for abcesses and when one pops up, quarantine and inject with formalin and wait til it falls off and dispose of it and then their good to go until it happens again

He also said that a goat can have a CL abcess and 6 months later with no abcesses showing up that same goat can test negative for cl. 

Another thing about some of these tests, He said that those folks that tell us that they can tell if a goat is vaccinated or has cl is pure bunk. Titer level testing is pure BS. 

I also found out that cl stays on a property based on location. one research test smeared cl on a piece of wood and left it outside the bakc of the lab for 2 years.
every so often they would swab it and test and could culture cl from the swab and after 2 years they couldn't get a successful culture. 
Sooo that basically says it all depends on the evnrionmental conditions. He went on further to say that you can clean a area up with bleach water mixed 1:5 ratio and it will sanitize the area. It will clean not only surfaces but the ground area too.
Agricultural lime will speed up the process on pastures but isn't immediate. 

One thing he said stood out. He said that if you live in texas and have goats, you have cl in your goats. I thought that was interesting.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

What is interesting is that although I love what Dr. Glass has done for us with testing colostrum for CAE etc...that you would think that management questions about how to deal with a communicable disease like CAE or CL would come from a guy in a lab who has never raised goats, dealt with goats who had any of this or successfully rid his herd of both.

Most of the information he parroted to you came from UC Davis's study on vaccination and titer. Goat Medicines test put CL on the board for more than 2 years. And everyone in Texas has CL? OF course this is simply not true. Injecting with formaline is not going to rid your herd of CL, or from others catching it, it still puts the exude into your soil and the lump also. Only by culling or removale of the abscess before it ripens can you rid yourself of this. Vicki


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## 6e

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> What is interesting is that although I love what Dr. Glass has done for us with testing colostrum for CAE etc...that you would think that management questions about how to deal with a communicable disease like CAE or CL would come from a guy in a lab who has never raised goats, dealt with goats who had any of this or successfully rid his herd of both.
> 
> Most of the information he parroted to you came from UC Davis's study on vaccination and titer. Goat Medicines test put CL on the board for more than 2 years. And everyone in Texas has CL? OF course this is simply not true. Injecting with formaline is not going to rid your herd of CL, or from others catching it, it still puts the exude into your soil and the lump also. Only by culling or removale of the abscess before it ripens can you rid yourself of this. Vicki



That's not true about the formalin. Formaldehyde will kill any bacteria. When you inject formalin into an abscess it kills the bacteria, mummifies the abscess and then it peels off harmless to both the goat and the environment. But, the goat would still have CL, it's just a management technique for those that wish to keep the CL positive goat and keep the rest of their herd safe and keep the CL off the soil. IF I was to keep a CL positive goat and wanted to use formalin to manage the CL, I would quarantine the goat that had an abscess, inject the abscess with the formalin, wait for it to slough off and then turn the goat back out with their herd mates when it healed. Using formalin is ridding the abscess before it ripens and is safer for the environment then lancing it and letting it drain all over and running the risk of tracking it else where.

While I believe that the best way to rid a herd of CL is to get rid of the goats that have CL, sometimes that's just not practical, especially like a herd we just saw recently that had well over 50% of the herd that had abscesses. For them, to get rid of every goat that had CL would put them out of the goat business in a hurry and they still have CL all over their property and so if they choose to do anything about it, they have a real chore on their hands and it's going to take some serious management techniques. 

And Vicki, I'm surprised you said that the only way to get rid of it is to get rid of the goats as you yourself said that you kept your CL positive goats as your property was already compromised and so you kept them separated and delt with them until the last of your CL positive goats were gone. So, appearently you did work around it. 

This is what you said:



> I did not get rid of my CL goats because you have to kill them not sell them. So since the area they were in was already compromised I just decided to keep them and milk them. I gleaned hundreds of clean kids off these does. But you do have to have very strict rules for this doe and this pen. When CAE was finally testable, excellent bloodlines including champions were sold to farms like mine who wanted to milk them and had facility for them...I mean like $1.


If Dr. Glass says that a goat that tests positive and yet that same goat, if he is abscess free for 6 months can then test negative, I tend to wonder why. But I do know just from what I've observed in my state, in my area CL is becoming an ever growing problem and I see more and more goats with it.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

It's a very tough road to hoe with keeping goats with commuicable disease, most don't have another facility to keep clean goats in, most do not have a pasture they can close a gate and have no livestock in it for years. Keeping strict quaranteen of the goats, no traffic in their pens ever with shoes or dogs or chickens that go to another pen. We saw these does twice a day on the milkstand to check them for abscess...in a meat herd or dairy herd where dry periods are months long, you would miss abscess.

We know from our herd that CL does not always show up in the bloodwork. Negative on a doe with an abcess is not uncommon. But she is not negative if she has had a tested abscess before, the bacteria is just dorman in her lymph glands. Vicki


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## 6e

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> It's a very tough road to hoe with keeping goats with commuicable disease, most don't have another facility to keep clean goats in, most do not have a pasture they can close a gate and have no livestock in it for years. Keeping strict quaranteen of the goats, no traffic in their pens ever with shoes or dogs or chickens that go to another pen. We saw these does twice a day on the milkstand to check them for abscess...in a meat herd or dairy herd where dry periods are months long, you would miss abscess.
> 
> We know from our herd that CL does not always show up in the bloodwork. Negative on a doe with an abcess is not uncommon. But she is not negative if she has had a tested abscess before, the bacteria is just dorman in her lymph glands. Vicki



That's probably true if you never look at your goats, especially in the meat goat herds where they're loose on pastures for months at a time and you very rarely see them. But I would think if you were serious about getting rid of it and serious about knowing whether or not your goats had it, it doesn't take long to look over all the goats once a day, once a week even. Those CL abscesses are easy to spot and stick out like a sore thumb and are there for awhile before they rupture. Those that don't check their goats, then I would say even if they did know their goats had it they probably wouldn't care.


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## barelahh

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> It's a very tough road to hoe with keeping goats with commuicable disease, most don't have another facility to keep clean goats in, most do not have a pasture they can close a gate and have no livestock in it for years. Keeping strict quaranteen of the goats, no traffic in their pens ever with shoes or dogs or chickens that go to another pen. We saw these does twice a day on the milkstand to check them for abscess...in a meat herd or dairy herd where dry periods are months long, you would miss abscess.


LOL i'm sorry but you can't miss a abcess unless you don't check your goats regularly. I don't care how much of a herd you have and if your not checking them regularly, then thats not a good management program. 





> We know from our herd that CL does not always show up in the bloodwork.


Then whats the point in testing if you can't rely on the tests???

Negative on a doe with an abcess is not uncommon. But she is not negative if she has had a tested abscess before, the bacteria is just dorman in her lymph glands. Vicki[/QUOTE]

Ahhh then you never can be sure that your goat is CL Free if thats the case  ESPECIALLY If you test them they show up negative then catch CL, and you never see a abcess.


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## 6e

I was kind of curious,

You can go to a farm and they can tell you that yes, the goats are CL free and give you a certificate that a goat tested negative and everything and you can take it home and test it again and it'll still come up negative all the while carrying CL in a dormant state? Ouch So, if a dishonest breeder really wanted to push off a CL positive goat, they could easily do so. And if CL didn't show up in that goat until some months later, you really have no recourse as you can't PROVE that the CL came from that farm. 

I'm still all for vaccinating. Sorry, but it protects my animals and protects everyone else. If I vaccinate my kids against this, that and the other and I vaccinate my dogs and my horses, then why not my goats? Just makes sense to me.


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## bleatingheart

Can anyone tell me where I can get Formalin? As of now we dont see any lumps but have in the past. Another concern that I have is what if the formaldehyde seaps or leaks out of intended area and into the jaw area, would this cause healthy muscle or tissue to breakdown? This seams to be a very toxic substance but if it can help from spreading CL to the rest of the heard I'm in. We prefer to medicate only when absolutely necessary and like to use more natural homeopathic means of treating our animals. It does sound like a big undertaking to rid CL from the premisis. Any tips or suggestions?

Also, what is this sudden neck wattle that my (Chewy, Brush) girls' got? She's been lethargic, moody and doesnt want to graze much. This is after we pulled her 6 month old boy who was still nursing. Cowboy our lead buck (boer/nubian mix) is showing the same symptoms. Seems as if he has an up set stomach because of rumbling gutural sounds, stays away from the heard, then anxiety kicks in and he catches up. Its lookin more like he may have a wattle too. He's acting depressed and puny. J. shot him aprox. 5 times with penicillin. I've given him concentrate with aureomycin mixed in, celery and pears. Yesterday I feed him a cup of blueberry yougart and he devoured it! Could this be parasites,worms, nematodes, bottle jaw? Both were dosed with ivermectin pour on 3 days ago. Chewy is better and not quiet as lethargic, still with the wattle.

J.'s had goats 20 years or so. I'm a newbee, 3 months on the farm. Got 5 new kids and dont want to loose them or thier mamas or for that fact any of the heard. Lost Sister, a new mama of 2, two weeks ago. The babies are a month old. Tried to supplement them with kid milk and concentrate but they rarely take the nipple, and would rather graze.

I hope there's some one out there who can help with advice. We're just sick 
of these goat ailments! 

Thanks so much Bleatingheart!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

It's likely bottle jaw. Anemia shows in goats as swelling under the chin down the neck. Worm them with something that kills blood sucking worms, and then build up their blood supply with good minerals, good hay etc..

If you are going the formalin route than join Chevon Talk or any of the other many boer goat lists on groupsyahoo.com just put chevontalk into the search there. Vicki


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## bleatingheart

I do believe you're right. Chewy is looking alot better and her chin swelling has gone down. Tried to sneak her some high mineral feed but the dog wanted it also. He's just a pup and had me running in circles trying to **** him away.

Just came in from moving the heard and Cowboy isn't with them. It worries me but J. said he saw him in the yard about an hour ago and is just probally lagging behind.It's gotten dark now and he should be in the barn. They worry me so at times!
tks 4 ur reply!!!


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## Jaclynne

6e said:


> That's probably true if you never look at your goats, especially in the meat goat herds where they're loose on pastures for months at a time and you very rarely see them. But I would think if you were serious about getting rid of it and serious about knowing whether or not your goats had it, it doesn't take long to look over all the goats once a day, once a week even. *Those CL abscesses are easy to spot and stick out like a sore thumb and are there for awhile before they rupture.* Those that don't check their goats, then I would say even if they did know their goats had it they probably wouldn't care.


What constitutes 'awhile' ? Is that weeks or months? Some general guideline would be healpful, say a lump can be there 6 weeks before rupture, or it can be there 6 months?

Halo


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## Katgowen

How often should you test for both of theses problems?


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## cybercat

I have been doing some research on CL here is what I have come up with so far. 1. after reading here and a few other places this started to sound like acne in humans to me. More the cyst type than blackhead, but that did not last long. 2. this is more nasty than some will make you belive. Testing is not full proof and it is very prevalent. The worst thing I found is you can have it and not know it for it is internal too. It effects the organ lymph nodes as well as the outer skin ones. 

I am posting a link to a vet in my state that raises goats. This page lists info on CAE, CL and johnes. Well worth the read for everyone concerned. *Warning graphic photos of CL.*

http://www.salecreekvet.com/738384.html


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## 4leggedfarm

I just wanted to put a bug in yyour ears that I have had great luck and WONDERFUL customer service for testing at Pan American Vet Lab. located in TX. You can find them online. They test for CAE CL and Jones diseases. The tests are inexpensive and very quick!

Kelli
www.4leggedfarm.com:)


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## Patt

None of the links at the beginning of this thread work anymore.....


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

We loose the old goat info on here due to pruning, and then the smart idea of combining the stickied old threads that were saved  But alot also changes in testing and basic information in 5 years.

Google is your best friend, and read University info, especially UC Davis. Vicki


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## Bricheze

I have a question, if a buck has CAE is there any way he can pass it on through his herd mates? Would it be passed to the sperm? Thanks.


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## susanne

Bricheze said:


> I have a question, if a buck has CAE is there any way he can pass it on through his herd mates? Would it be passed to the sperm? Thanks.


no, very unlikely
the virus is not found in the sperm.


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## sekelmilkmaid

So for me, after four repetitious lancing and flushings of this abscess on our very successful dairy goat over the past two years, I came to wonder if I should be dealing with it more seriously, then I read all this and wonder if she has CL. Also from what I read, I don't think I want to waste my money on a test if it may be a false negative. Also, this abscess on my doe looks more like an abscess from a rotten tooth than a clear round abscess like shown in a picture someone posted a link too (the picture looks almost like a pimple). But there is a thick yellow, toothpaste like substance that comes out every time. So should I just assume it's CL? And cull out my doe (because we would have a very difficult time controlling it by separation...I'm surprised my other many does haven't had abscesses popping up...)? Or could it be something else? I just don't want to end a goat's life unnecessarily. WHAT TO DO? I'm asking on here because it's hard to find a vet in my area that knows goats by experience instead of head knowledge.

Thanks, Danielle


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Get some of the exude from this abscess on a q-tip, put it into a ziplock and send it to UC Davis. Ask them to test it for cornybacterium. Vicki


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## JustGettingBy

Question, my goat just delivered twins last night, two does, woo hoo! I was wondering when I could start milking her for myself and what should I have her tested for? I know the two cae and cl, but is there anything else?


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## peterng

greenacres said:


> I am combining the two posts on CL and CAE.
> 
> What is CL?
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=11856
> 
> What is CAE?
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=11855


Hello,

The CL link is broken.
Pete


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## angelsprite

Wow, there seems to be a lot of repetition of the Merck Veterinary Manual's information on CL and CAE on this thread.
All the new research points away from both testing and culling in the case of CAE. The new research has shown that the reason meat goats have no problems with CAE is because meat goats were not subjected to testing with the unreliable tests for CAE nor were they subjected to culling based on those tests. Instead, their production dictated whether or not they remained in the herds. After CAE burned through, it left a resistent population of goats in it's wake that simply do not get the disease. And that's the object of responsible breeding. To breed goats that are NATURALLY HEALTHY. Testing and culling has been shown to INCREASE susceptibility to CAE and to select for more virulent strains of the virus.
Goat raisers are now being advised to breed for resistence instead of culling.

With regard to CL. The latest work implies that CL is a soil resident, meaning it exists in the soil whether a CL goat is in the herd or not. Many other species, including man, can transmit the disease. CL has been isolated in horses feces and is thought to occur naturally as a part of the normal bacterial content of the gut in equine. This study was performed by British researchers on a stud farm where no horses had been found to have CL.

These diseases exist as a natural part of our world. Our goats have to deal with them, develop genetic resistence over several generations or fend them off with their own immune systems. CAE is not communicable to man and most goats have no problems with it anymore, unless they are in a herd where culling and pulling kids for bottlefeeding is routinely practiced. 
CL is communicable to man but it is something that simply cannot be eradicated in goats. It has too many natural hosts that will come into contact with goats or the hay and pasture goats feed on. There is no way to isolate goats from CL or from any disease and in trying to isolate them, we really only make them more vulnerable.
I realize that this post is going to ruffle some feathers, but we pay for a lot of this research with our taxes. If we aren't going to pay attention to the studies because it doesn't go along with what people have always heard, then why should the research even be done?
I spent 5 years studying epidemiology, public health, and viral genetics with my primary focus on emerging infectious disease. A lot of people seem to think that if one goat raiser has read an article, made a decision in their mind about some disease, and has decided to either cull or test or whatever, that is "the way it's done" by everyone. Each and every goat raiser is in a different position economically, the purpose of their herd, management capabilities, and in their medical knowledge. It's really up to each individual to decide how they will manage their herd and respond to medical challenges. There are also privacy issues related to veterinary medicine and herd health management. I think people are taking these issues for granted, thinking that by convincing everyone to maintain one practice, they can protect their goats from a disease. It ain't gonna happen. There are more than 1500 pyogenic bacteria (abscess causing) that can infect our goats. By trying to test or prevent everything out there, we just spend a lot of money and we will still have all the same problems other goat raisers will have. Some people may have MORE problems for having tried to prevent problems in the first place.
Let the goats be goats. Treat their ailments and take the best care of them you can. And keep your veterinary information private. Make your own decisions based on your particular circumstances. Don't let anyone badger you into doing things that are counter-intuitive because that person read an old essay and made a decision for themselves based on their fear of what they don't understand. 
Most of the information on goats contained in the Merck was written by people who considered goats to be cheap and expendable. If you consider your goats to be VALUABLE animals, then you might want to dig a little deeper into these subjects before deciding to take the loss and spend the money to replace your herd.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

And this is the problem with this sticky idea, it's one thing to have posts like this in the general conversation portion of this forum, where breeders can debunk the info, quite another for it to be up here as gospel for new folks to believe.
....................................................................

Wow, there seems to be a lot of repetition of the Merck Veterinary Manual's information on CL and CAE on this thread.
All the new research points away from both testing and culling in the case of CAE..........
..............

This is simply untrue, the only way to know you have CAE is to test for it, few cull for it anymore when testing and prevention will give you a negative herd in one generation.

The new research has shown that the reason meat goats have no problems with CAE is because meat goats were not subjected to testing with the unreliable tests for CAE nor were they subjected to culling based on those tests.
................................................

Your meat goats don't have a problem with CAE because you don't test. You have no idea how many of your goats are positive for it and neither to your buyers. Thousands of dairy goats were culled into boer herds for the crosses or for recipients in the 90's when boer embryoes came to the US. CAE did not just disappear from the subsequent nursing kids. Hard udders were culled for, arthirtic knees were culled for, chronic pneumonia was culled for, that is culling for CAE. Because you don't test or know the status of your herd, you infect your nursing kids, it isn't until you have starving kids or dead kids on the ground do you know that your doe is CAE positive with that hard udder, which from afar looks normally full, so you then cull her. I just preferred to cull before she infects her kids.

Instead, their production dictated whether or not they remained in the herds. After CAE burned through, it left a resistent population of goats in it's wake that simply do not get the disease. And that's the object of responsible breeding. To breed goats that are NATURALLY HEALTHY. Testing and culling has been shown to INCREASE susceptibility to CAE and to select for more virulent strains of the virus.
Goat raisers are now being advised to breed for resistence instead of culling.
.......................................

But you said the virus then would mutate? Most of us had CAE for years before we knew what the arthritic knees and hard udders, chronic pneumonia were even about, not until testing in the late 80's. So why would we still then have does with arthritic knees and hard udders with no milk if this NATURAL goat was allowed to have this virus, give it to her kids and still have symptomatic goats, generation after generation? 

With regard to CL. The latest work implies that CL is a soil resident, meaning it exists in the soil whether a CL goat is in the herd or not. Many other species, including man, can transmit the disease. CL has been isolated in horses feces and is thought to occur naturally as a part of the normal bacterial content of the gut in equine. This study was performed by British researchers on a stud farm where no horses had been found to have CL.
..........................

Because you have CL in your herd you try to justify it that everyone has it, or that you can't get rid of it, this is simply untrue, and once again meat goat specific, both the mentality of keeping a zoonic disease alive and well on your farm, but that it is then OK to infect others herds with it through the sale of said animals. The biggy for me is if you really think all of this you would be on here as a real person, a real website, proud of your stock positive or not. 

These diseases exist as a natural part of our world. Our goats have to deal with them, develop genetic resistence over several generations or fend them off with their own immune systems.
.........................

Once again CL and CAE have been in our herds for generations and until testing and culling and using CAE prevention started, none of our goats immune systems stopped it, so why would they now? With all due respect to new folks, we have all been there and done that, why each generation of new goat breeders think they are going to reinvent the wheel, we aren't just a bunch of google reading Merck owners who didn't do the testing, didn't do the homework, and you are soo much smarter and are going to teach us a thing or two or three.

CAE is not communicable to man and most goats have no problems with it anymore, unless they are in a herd where culling and pulling kids for bottlefeeding is routinely practiced.
..............................

Most goats have no problems with it anymore ??, and that is why the forum is filled with new people who come on here with abscesses, with their goats having chronic pneumonia, swollen knees, down during the winter or in the mud of spring when heavy bred, wasteing, udders with no colostrum, none....to me this IS the huge problems of maintaining comunicable disease on your goat farm. Watch the forum this spring, several sets of kids will simply die from starvation, the udder looks full, the kids are nursing, but there is NO milk....that is CAE. Putting down productive does who are 7 or 8 years old when their counterparts who are negative are still going strong at 12, that is CAE.


CL is communicable to man
......................................

No lets take out the 'but' in your next breath, we really want to be on a forum with new people telling them 'but' this is the truth above. CL is communicable to man...really want to drink milk or eat meat or feed the above to your children? But means forget about everything else I have written and then listen to me dance around the facts........

but it is something that simply cannot be eradicated in goats. 

..............................

This is not true, it has been eradicated in my herd and most responsible breeders herds. It can't be eradicated in your herd because you choose not to. 

It has too many natural hosts that will come into contact with goats or the hay and pasture goats feed on. There is no way to isolate goats from CL or from any disease and in trying to isolate them, we really only make them more vulnerable.
I realize that this post is going to ruffle some feathers, but we pay for a lot of this research with our taxes. If we aren't going to pay attention to the studies because it doesn't go along with what people have always heard, then why should the research even be done?
I spent 5 years studying epidemiology, public health, and viral genetics with my primary focus on emerging infectious disease. A lot of people seem to think that if one goat raiser has read an article, made a decision in their mind about some disease, and has decided to either cull or test or whatever, that is "the way it's done" by everyone.
.........................

And since she is talking about me, I am not telling anyone what to do, I am making sure everyone knows the real facts of disease on a farm. Not 5 years in a lab, but 23 years on a farm with a working herd, not even 1 hour from the above poster.

Each and every goat raiser is in a different position economically, the purpose of their herd, management capabilities, and in their medical knowledge. It's really up to each individual to decide how they will manage their herd and respond to medical challenges. There are also privacy issues related to veterinary medicine and herd health management. I think people are taking these issues for granted, thinking that by convincing everyone to maintain one practice, they can protect their goats from a disease. It ain't gonna happen. There are more than 1500 pyogenic bacteria (abscess causing) that can infect our goats. By trying to test or prevent everything out there, we just spend a lot of money and we will still have all the same problems other goat raisers will have. Some people may have MORE problems for having tried to prevent problems in the first place.
........................

This of course makes little sense that I would have more problems because I test (pull blood, send in material from abscess) quaranteen new stock, how can this give me more disease?


Make your own decisions based on your particular circumstances. Don't let anyone badger you into doing things that are counter-intuitive because that person read an old essay and made a decision for themselves based on their fear of what they don't understand.
.................................

My herd lonesomedoenubians.com and my name on this forum and others (dairygoatinfo.com) stands behind what I know is true, we don't know angelsprite from adam, we don't see her goats, we don't see her posts, she certainly shares no personal information about her goats or herself, search my posts on this forum, google me, think I could keep and sell to new folks positive stock? It's easy when you hide behind a pseudo name.

Buy your goats wisely, buy from like minded breeders who stand behind their goats. It's easy for someone to say they don't have this or that, ask for the proof in test results. Google them, and when you don't find a real person, run as fast as you can.

It is OK for some to practice this kind of management and it's nice to see it on an open forum, it shows you what is really out there for you to choose to purchase from. There are thankfully many many like minded folks on this forum who do sell and keep animals who are not diseased, those who do test, do your homework. And a lot of us who will help you find those with clean herds to purchase from, just ask. Vicki


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## susanne

angelsprite, the truth why meat goats don't seem to have problems is because they are dam raising and if they are not be able to supply enough milk for there offspring,either because they are lagging behind the herd and not eat enough because of arthritis, or mastitis, they are culled. kinda self eliminating. versus dairy goats where kids are raised on pooled milk, where one years whole kid crop is infected.
while dairy breeder look for longivity, meat goat breeder breed for fast meat gain to bring them to be processed early, why many of them don't care about diseases like cl.

yes the cae virus might and probably did mutate, but sure not to a milder form. instead of having an a-symptomatic goat, you find more and earlier symptoms ones a goat is infected.

as long as you are honest about your practice and believes, we have the chance to buy from breeder that are testing and proof they have healthy animals free of communicable disease. keep up your good work  

oh, and if we do our homework first ( yeah, i was stupid in the beginning too) we will be able to buy healthy animals and keep them healthy, no reason to cull and replace 


angelsprite, you can believe and manage your animals how ever you want to, but please don't say cl is a normal fact of goat health and sooner or later they will get it. THIS IS NOT TRUE.


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## hardworkingwoman

Hi,
If I breed my buck to a doe with cae is it possible for him to get it and pass it on to other does?


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## hardworkingwoman

Sorry I forgot to add something, I only ask this because I know someone that said that they want to breed their doe with an asymptomatic doe and is interested in my buck. I don't want to breed with a doe with cae if he is going to get it. Plus this is not a responsible goat owner to do this so I would probably not breed to this doe anyway. Thanks!


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## Heritagefarm

What is the point of this sticky if 
a. There is little info in it about CL and CAE, and
b. The links don't work anymore.


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## jBlaze

Guess we should updae it! eh? 

Sorry to hear that the links don't work!!


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## Heritagefarm

Update? There was never anything here.


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## ozark_jewels

Heritagefarm said:


> Update? There was never anything here.


Did you check on the first page of this thread?? There is much info there and several links that still work.

In my opinion, CAE is a bad disease, but CL by its very contagious nature, is a VERY BAD disease.
I would opt to "deal" with CAE if it was a goat valuable to my breeding plans. 
I would never choose to "deal" with CL. Horrible stuff.


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## Heritagefarm

CAE is virtually obsolete. Almost no symptomatic goats exist. CL is a disease that very little is known about, and is therefore all the more hazardous.
EDIT: And no, I didn't read the first page.:doh:


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## ozark_jewels

Heritagefarm said:


> CAE is virtually obsolete. Almost no symptomatic goats exist.


I've seen way to many symptomatic goats in my visits to other farms and at the auction. Its a sad disease, but managable if you know what you are doing. Unfortunately, it is passed on by many goat people who have never even heard of it.
CL is just plain horrible and unfortunately, easy to pass off on a newbie who knows nothing about goats(ask me how I know).


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## jBlaze

I have had first hand experience with CAE goats. From 2 different herds. It certainly DOES exist.
Obsolete - WOW. - I Wish!


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## jBlaze

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/iss...ae_virus_infects_and_affects_dairy_goats.html

Part of the DGJ article:


> Another virus that is very similar to the CAE virus is the Maedi-visna virus (MVV). MVV, the first lentivirus to be discovered in 1954 in Icelandic sheep, causes inflammation of the lungs and wasting of the spinal cord and brain. In the U.S. the disease is called ovine progressive pneumonia (OPP). The CAE and Maedi-visna viruses are so similar, and since recent evidence shows that both viruses can cross-infect both sheep and goats, CAEV and MVV are now more often referred to as Small Ruminant Lentiviruses (SRLVs).
> 
> The CAE virus is most commonly passed through milk and especially colostrum from an infected dam to her kids. This is called vertical transmission. The virus can also be passed, but only rarely, from one goat to another which, is called horizontal transmission. In sheep, horizontal transmission of MVV appears to be a more important source of infection.


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## Heritagefarm

jBlaze said:


> I have had first hand experience with CAE goats. From 2 different herds. It certainly DOES exist.
> Obsolete - WOW. - I Wish!


Sure, positive goats exist, what is rare is symptomatic goats.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

We wish this was true Heritagefarm. Stick round awhile and answer questions. CL and CAE are alive and well, in hard udders, in swollen knees, in abcess, in chronic pnemonia of the older doe. If people would stop buying untested goats we could irradicate this, because we never will get the breeders who sell their diseased stock to new folks to test unless it hits them in the wallet! We have been trying for 20 years now! Vicki


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## Heritagefarm

Sorry. I was going by what the WSU told us. :shrug:


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## InHisName

Can CL, or something like it, be transmitted through cattle manure? Had a cow with an abscess (never open) here at our place, goats had access to manure.


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## ozark_jewels

InHisName said:


> Can CL, or something like it, be transmitted through cattle manure? Had a cow with an abscess (never open) here at our place, goats had access to manure.


In a cow, its highly likely the abcess was caused by injury, bruising, dirty needle, etc. Not likely to be CL. IF it was CL, the cow would have to have a ruptured abcess in the digestive tract, etc somewhere for it to be passed along in the manure. So, I'd say, all in all, its unlikely in the extreme.


----------



## heatherette

for those of you who test, what is your current procedure? I was told by a local lady that testing is only done in California, and that it is not accurate unless you test 10 or more goats. I just re-read this whole thread, and I saw a post about a Texas lab, not a recent post. I remember seeing a thread elsewhere that suggested someone was confident enough in individual results to segregate based on those results.
Help! 

I put down a goat recently, she had a really bad leg from a brake when she was young. She had been overfed this last year to a point that the leg was really bothering her. She had a fever in May, then end of July? she developed a fast growing lump on her throat (I posted about this previously) that didn't look remotely similar to any picture I've seen yet of CL. Looked much more like the cancer pictures. I cut her open and her liver and lungs looked perfect. I burned her just to be sure. Her little friend is lonely and waiting for a buddy, but I feel really stuck about what to do. I don't want to assume she is or isn't CL positive. I want to buy a clean goat, but if Sazzle is cl+ I inherited these goats from a friend who passed away suddenly and I am muddling my way through this.

So, can I test one goat and feel confident, if so how?


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## GottaloveOregon

My goat had CL I was going to cut it open but it poped befor I got around to it is this bad?


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## FrogTacos

GottaloveOregon said:


> My goat had CL I was going to cut it open but it poped befor I got around to it is this bad?


Every goat in the same yard has now been exposed, every square inch of ground the goat has been in is now contaminated (including areas downhill due to natural runoff.) CL can live in the soil for over a year and there isn't squat you can do about it.


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## GottaloveOregon

No No bulonie every square inch how is this possible besides my goat pen does have a nice slant so most of it like your saying oustside has been washed away outside the pen.


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## FrogTacos

GottaloveOregon said:


> No No bulonie every square inch how is this possible besides my goat pen does have a nice slant so most of it like your saying oustside has been washed away outside the pen.


You have a goat that had a cyst rupture. 
Any and all goats in the enclosure could have easily picked up the CL bacteria (if that is what it is) and carried it all over the place on their feet.
The goat with the ruptured cyst could have dribbled the contents of the cyst over a large area. Rubbed it on fences, walls, feed dishes.
Rain would make the contaminated area worse, not better. CL doesn't just wash away, it spreads; this means the area where your pen drains to would also be potentially contaminated.

This is why I said in your thread there are things you can do to remove CL from your herd if you choose to do so - testing is the first step. No one likes to hear that removing a disease from their herd could mean disposing of their entire herd. Sorry you don't like that answer, but with CL and CAE those are the only ways to do it. You either keep it, or get rid of it, there is no middle ground.


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## GottaloveOregon

Oh no the herd might haft to go but I doubt it first of all I still dont know if it is CL 2nd its the only goat I have seen it on and it went away healed up and she seems fine to me 3rd I am betting that if the others had it I would have seen it on at least one other animal would you think. 

*QUESTON* Would a goat wit CL act sick or does it not really make them feel bad?


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## FrogTacos

The thing with CL - the goat with the cyst might not ever have another one that you can see. It *could* (not saying it does) have internal cysts. Testing is the only way you will know for sure. If its positive, then you would want to test the rest in that batch you got. Also, if its positive, the rest of your herd being exposed might, or might not have actually gotten it. Only time, and testing will tell. And no, they don't act sick from it. If the one that had the cyst is negative for it, unless you really want to, you probably wouldn't need to test any of the others. Goats can get cysts for a large variety of reasons. CL wouldn't break out like a large batch of chicken pox. It can take a long time before an exposed goat *might* show symptoms.

Think about something like pink eye in a classroom full of kids. Its highly contagious, but you have to come in contact with the germs. Some of the other kids will get it, some wont. The kid with the pink eye scratches their eye, then puts a hand in the community crayon box, touches the button on the water fountain, plays with 5 different toys... etc etc. Everything that kid touched has the potential to be infected. Any other kid touches one of those things has the potential to catch it, not a guarantee. Fortunately, those germs can be killed with some good antibacterial sprays and washes. CL can not.

I went to look at a womans goats - her goat yard was a very steep, rocky hill. 90% of her goats had CL cysts. Odds are, the other 10% have it too, just weren't showing symptoms.


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## GottaloveOregon

WOW ok there is seriosly nothing I can do then beacuse it was such a long time ago it has healed and is baly noticable anymore so the damage might be done already so i should probably just get that one goat tested and then the rest if it is positive.


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## Cannon_Farms

bewared testing isnt 100%


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## GottaloveOregon

yeah but it still gives peace of mind. LOL


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## Horse chic

My family got 3 pygmy goats about 10 years back (only one is still living). We got them for showing and to possibly breed. Problem was that about 6 months after got them and showed them the breeder that we got them from had a farming accident and was killed. After that we found that the family taking over her heard saw that some of the heard had CL. So we did the responsible thing and kept out goats on our own property and did not breed them. One goat developed an external abscess- that was lanced-before the vet knew what it was. She died a few years later most likely from internal abscesses. The Second goat was put down due to an abscess in the neck that prevented her from eating. They now have one remaining goat- that seems to have no abscesses- but is starting to slow down from old age.

I guess my question is can they even think about getting more goats? My mother would like some for dairy purposes. The goats where confined to one area of the 7 acres that they own. So if they were placed farther away from the original pen would this be an option? Or would it be better to consider a dairy cow instead?

Also it was a little unclear to me if there is a reliable test for all three diseases (CL, CAE, and Jones). It seems like there was really nothing that could tell you for sure that you goat did not have it. Or that it was dormant and is going to pop up on you later. 

Then there is the factor of what is transmittable to humans. It seems that you are safe with the CAE but that the CL and Jones are both transmittable through raw milk. Raw milk is the reason for having the goats.

I am interested partly for my mother but also because I will have a homestead in the near future and need to know if I should go with goats or cows. Do cows have any of the same type of concerns as goats- as far as diseases that you would have to worry about getting through raw milk?

They would also like to keep chickens in the area that the goats were in. There is no problem of then having CL in the soil with chickens is there?

Thanks all!

Catherine


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## 2jessehall1

I have a Sanaan goat that just had twins, and she has a big lump on the side of her neck that just came up today, which is 8 days after the babies were born. I think its CL but I haven't had goats long enough to know very much. If it is CL should I not let the babies feed from her? And how do I clean it? And any other information would be very helpful.


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## 2jessehall1

I have a Sanaan goat that just had twins, and she has a big lump on the side of her neck that just came up today, which is 8 days after the babies were born. I think its CL but I haven't had goats long enough to know very much. If it is CL should I not let the babies feed from her? And how do I clean it? And any other information would be very helpful.


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## CaliannG

First, as the title says, "before you buy GOATS", as in plural. Goats are herd animals that become unhappy and depressed when they are by themselves. For good health, both physical and mental, they NEED a friend of their own kind to keep them company. Your children, your dogs, or your horse is not going to do the trick.

This post is dairy-centric. However, I hope the meat goat folks speak up as well.

There is no such thing as "something for nothing". You cannot tie your goats out on a patch of weeds and expect them to produce lots of yummy milk for you for little or no cost or effort on your part. To continue to produce well, goats need adequate care and management which include, but is not limited to:

1. Nutrition. A good dairy goat is pumping out 2,700 calories per day in her milk, PLUS the calories need to convert grass, leaves, and other forage into milk. So, every day, she is using up approximately 3,000 calories to give you milk. That means you have to make sure she is eating MORE than 3,000 calories worth of food to make up for it. She needs enough extra calories to run her body as well as make milk. 

This is why we feed grain to milking does.. Grass, leaves, and other greenery are NOT high in calories. That's why people on diets that are trying to lose weight eat salads, right? Imagine if you were a high energy athlete trying to pour your 3,500-4,000 calories per day into your body using nothing but salads! You wouldn't have time to sleep, because you'd have to eat more salad to meet your numbers.

Grains are high in calories, so are sugars. This is why it is important, if you are trying to lose weight, to avoid lots of carbs and sugars. That double glazed cinnamon roll will go straight to your thighs; give it to your milk goat instead. Trust me, she'll thank you. 

All joking aside, I have seen too many people that think they can buy a couple of goats and turn them loose in their weedy yards, and the goats will flourish and just give them lots of milk. Don't do that; you'll end up with dead goats.

2. Minerals. Next to proper feed, a lack of minerals is the next highest killer of goats. Goats put a LOT more vitamins and minerals into their milk than cows do, which makes it a lot healthier for us....but it also means that those minerals and vitamins need to be replaced. Having inadequate levels of calcium, copper, selenium, iron, and other minerals, will KILL goats. 

Having a good LOOSE mineral available to goats at all times, OR giving goats weekly doses of a multivitamin/mineral gel, such as Replamin, is absolutely necessary to their continued health. Calcium, most especially, is an absolutely necessity for a milking goat, considering how much of it she is putting into her milk for you. A high calcium feed or hay, such as alfalfa, or top-dressing their grain with something such as calcium carbonate, is necessary to prevent such deathly problems such as hypocalcemia.

3. Disease testing. Goats are subject to several INCURABLE diseases (cows are, as well), that will not only make their lives short and agonizing, but can be passed to humans through milk. TB and Brucellosis is not longer the problem that they once were in this country. But since you wish to invest in goats, for the continued health of your goats and your family, make sure that the goats you buy are tested, and negative, for CL, CAE, and Johne's Disease.

4. Breeds. There is no one breed that is best for everyone. A lot of people wish to start out with Nigerian Dwarfs because they believe that their small size will make them easier to handle. This is how we end up with a lot of ruined Nigerian Dwarfs on Craigslist. Each and every breed has their good points and their bad points....as well as individual personalities. When it comes to people new to goats, I generally suggest that they get a Saanen or an Alpine, as those breeds are generally laid back, easy to handle, and are almost born with an instinctual training to the milk stand. RESEARCH your breeds, the good, the bad, and the ugly, BEFORE you set your heart in the belief of a myth.

5. Time and schedules: Once you have a doe in milk, you are TIED to that goat. She needs to be milked EVERY day, and with good, high producers, TWICE a day. You cannot skip a day because you are sick, or tired, or want to go visit friends for a day or weekend. If you are not willing to commit yourself to milking your goats every, single, day without fail, do NOT get them. A missed milking can mean blown out teats and blown out udders...in other words, TRUE harm and damage to a goat who does not deserve it.

**********************************************

I hope this helps anyone considering getting into goats. They are wonderful, sweet, addictive animals...but like the rest of life, they need care and good management to do their best. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I look forward to imput from others, sharing their knowledge and experience for those seeking to get into goats.


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## CaliannG

Your property:

The biggest thing is fencing. Realize that the smaller the goat, the better and more expensive your fencing has to be. A herd of Saanens can often be easily kept in plain, welded stockwire fencing. A herd of Nigerians might need something capable of holding water. Plan your fencing for YOUR goats.

Goats CANNOT BE TETHERED without constant supervision!! You cannot leave them out on a chain like a dog to graze, go to work, and realistically expect to come back to healthy goats. I cannot stress this enough, *unsupervised tethering kills goats*. Do not do it.


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## rileyjo

My suggestion is to look into the cost and availability of goat supplies before you bring home a goat.

One goat in milk can produce more than you will use in a day. Do you have room in your fridge? Do you have other animals that can benefit from the extra milk? Do you have the time to properly sanitize the equipment?
Goats produce at different rates but a healthy quality animal will give you enough milk to keep you very busy.
Make sure you factor in the time costs of owning a dairy goat.


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## Minelson

I have to reiterate the disease testing. When I first found out that there are diseases that goats can carry it was after I got my first goat. Even then I thought it was no big deal. I thought that since I live in the middle of no where and the goat came from a nice man with a very clean place that I didn't have anything to worry about. 5 years later and now my entire property is contaminated with Johnes disease. The slow death of my precious goat was frustrating and devastating. And my other 4 goats have been exposed to this awful disease. 

Also...when building pens, housing or anything always go as big as you can. I have never built anything and thought..oh that is much too big. I always wish I had made it bigger.


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## Oat Bucket Farm

A medicine kit is a must. Learn what can befall goats, research, and then get the appropriate meds. Goats have an uncanny ability to fall ill on a Sunday, in the middle of a holiday weekend, or when your good goat vet that knows you is on vacation and the fill in vet thinks you are loopy, that goats can survive on tin cans and are worthless to treat.


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## Goat Servant

Always ask to see the papers proving they've been tested. Any trustworthy breeder is not going to be offended at all.
Said goats will cost more than your backyard "2 for $75" deal.


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## southerngurl

Goat Servant said:


> Always ask to see the papers proving they've been tested. Any trustworthy breeder is not going to be offended at all.
> Said goats will cost more than your backyard "2 for $75" deal.


Yep, realize what it costs a breeder to raise that goat you are buying. They have to recoup their costs and usually are doing well to break even on sales. When we went to buy our first goats, we though we would get bred does for $100 each Bwhahahah! So funny now. Those gals had CAE and CL. Glad we waited and spent more than triple that. We started with some nice animals, and they sure do multiply!


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## Minelson

Check your zoning laws and make sure you can have goats before you bring any home


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## BackfourtyMI.

Ditto on all of the above! Glad you started this thread Caliann, so many excellent things for newbi's to consider before getting any goats.


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## ani's ark

Great thread Caliann!
I'm still a relative newbie, but suggest if buying pregnant does, for your first kidding experience dont do what I did and get a several week window on when the doe were bred - get dates so you know when they are due. Waiting on tenterhooks for weeks and being unsure what to do if things go wrong (which 9 times in ten they wont) can do your head in!
Oh, and de-worm them the day you bring them home as the stress can make worm-loads blossom.

Make sure you have basic goat essentials BEFORE getting your animals (again, what I didnt do and then had to spend time and money I hadnt planned for, doh!):

A solid goat and predator-proof pen with warm dry shelter. Even if you pasture them it's sense to have a 'containment unit' for night time, storms, emergencies and kidding.
Hoof trimming shears
Milking stand, stainless bucket, glass bottles and filters, sanitising gear
Collars and leads to make handling easier
Bowls and feed, minerals, baking soda, hay and a water bucket
De-wormers that work in your area.
First aid kit
A digital camera for photographic bragging rights and also to aid the vet/folks on here with diagnoses - if anything goes wrong a picture is worth 10,000 words.

Lastly, membership to this most excellent forum full of knowledgeable folks who will support and help you with managing your new favourite animals! FYI pics are required of any new goats or kids.


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## Frosted Mini's

The number one killer of goats is parasites! Especially if you live in the South where it is warm and humid. Moisture + Heat are the recipe for growing lots of parasites and coccidia-which is very damaging to baby goats especially, but also adults.

If you are buying registered goats, have papers in hand, otherwise go elsewhere, trust me on this one; I have paid for "registered" goats whose paperwork was "being worked on", never to get the papers...


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## Joe_Dirt

You mention minerals. Would one of those big mineral tubs that you can buy at Tractor Supply suffice, or is something more specific needed for goats? I was just having the goat conversation with the better half this evening. Talk about good timing.


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## thaiblue12

_Time and schedules: Once you have a doe in milk, you are TIED to that goat. She needs to be milked EVERY day, and with good, high producers, TWICE a day. You cannot skip a day because you are sick, or tired, or want to go visit friends for a day or weekend. If you are not willing to commit yourself to milking your goats every, single, day without fail, do NOT get them. A missed milking can mean blown out teats and blown out udders...in other words, TRUE harm and damage to a goat who does not deserve it._

True unless you keep kids on the doe, separate at night and milk once a day, or skip the super cold days altogether like I do  I so am not milking when the temps are in the negatives. Maybe one day I will have a heated milking area, but until then the kids can take care of it for me. My person and hands are not freezing, tried that and no more.



Are those tubs a soild mineral that they lick? If so then no, they need loose minerals with lots of copper. I use cattle minerals since I cannot get good goat minerals in 50 lb bags here. The cattle mineral contains 2300 ppm of copper while the small bag of goat mineral I can get only have 1400 ppm.


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## Ford Zoo

Make sure you have a good goat vet (if that's possible in your area), and make sure you have access to experienced, knowledgable goat owners. Many times they will be more experienced than the vet.

And if you don't know, don't be afraid to ask more than one person. You will get many answers, but it boils down to doing what seems right based on all the info you are going to aquire.


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## Bob Huntress

As far as minerals go, Joe, TSC sells both blocks and bags of minerals. I haven't had any luck getting goats to eat from a licking block or hanging brick. I can always put it in with food and they will eat it.


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## CaliannG

Loose minerals are a must. Even cattle people are going to loose minerals because it has been found that they do not get enough mineral from licking hard blocks.


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## anita_fc

This thread needs to be a sticky!!! Excellent summary and comments.


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## madrona

*CaliannG* - fantastic thread. i agree it should be sticky!

I don't have goats yet but would like a list of things I need to have at the ready BEFORE I bring the goats home, so I'm not frantically running to my local Drive Thru Feed for something new everyday for a week until I'm all stocked up. Assuming they're bottle fed does.
The obvious:
Fencing
Shelter
Food (what kind? alfalfa, hay, grain? if weaned)
Minerals?
Food bin of some kind (plastic tub...??)
Water feeder (what kind??)
Leash, collar?
bottles/milk/colustrum (if not weaned?)

I don't know what else, but I'd love a comprehensive list, maybe separated into 1) necessary 2) nice to have

Is there a thread where people talk about what a typical care/feeding schedule might look like for 1 full day?

Thanks for being so patient with all of my questions!


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## rileyjo

This thread is set up to be a sticky eventually. Would anyone like to tackle Cl/Cae in detail?
I can transfer over some info from the original sticky as well.


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## CaliannG

We do have a sticky already about pregnant doe and kid care, which should cover if one buys and brings home a bred doe or bottle kid. I'll have to go over it again, it is old. 

What feed one gets is dependent upon one's area. Lots of folks swear by alfalfa hay, and won't feed anything else. Down here, a small square of alfalfa can cost $20 each....so folks have to do different things to meet the nutritional requirements of their goats.


Feed changes depending upon sex, maturity, and purpose of the goat in question. Growing kids, who are weaned from the bottle but not yet grown up, need a higher concentrate of feed than adult animals that have no other stresses on their system. Pregnant or lactating does will, of course, need more and different feed than dry does. Mature bucks will ONLY need concentrates, such as grain, during rutting season, when they are more interested in mating than in eating. Mature wethers should never need grain, and it is harmful for them to have it.

Minerals should be loose, rather than blocks, so that the goats have an easier time eating it. It should be high in copper. (2,000 ppm or better)

Places to put food and water will be dependent upon your set up, your area, and what is easiest for you. The only thing I can think of is that they should be easy to clean. However, that is not a necessary thing, as long as they ARE clean. I know someone who fed and watered their two pet pygmy does for years out of tupperware bowls.

Some folks do collars, some folks swear their goats will hang themselves on collars. Some folks train their goats to lead and tether, and some folks do not. Mine have collars, and are trained to lead and tether, because even if I don't lead or tie them up somewhere OFTEN, when I need to do so, I need to do so, and I don't want to have freaked out goats in what might already be a stressful situation.

If you have only yourself to depend upon for help and resources, and no friends or other goat people handy, AND you are new and haven't had the time and opportunity to collect the real thing and freeze it, then powdered colostrum is a good thing to have on hand, as well as Prichard nipples. I always have a plethora of Prichard nipples and black lamb nipples, because every season, I can't remember where I stored them, so I buy more...then a few weeks later, I find where I stored them. I probably have a couple dozen Prichard nipples and black lamb nipples that still have the price tags on them from years ago.

Medicines are important. Some of them you may never use...but if it is 10 at night on a holiday and you can't get to a feed store or vet, NOTHING else will do the trick. You may never need it, and have to toss it out and replace it every year, but if you DO need it and you don't have it, it is the difference between a sick, recovering goat and a dead goat.

Medicines in that category are:

C&D antitoxin (NOT toxoid)
Tetanus antitoxin (NOT toxoid)
CMPK (injected type) [Rx]

Medicines that are important, that while you can wait an hour or 6 (perhaps) to get them, but that will NOT wait until your vet comes back from holiday weekend or the feed store opens on Monday:

Thiamine (injected) [Rx] (You can sometimes keep a goat going with injected B-Complex long enough to get your hands on some thiamine)
Bo-Se (injected) [Rx] (you can sometimes keep a goat going with Vitamin E capsules or selenium/Vitamin E gel until you can get your hands on Bo-Se)

Antibiotics-- this one is difficult to discuss, because there is a wide range of antibiotics for different problems, and it can be difficult to have everything you need on hand. Many over-the-counter antibiotics have also lost their effectiveness through decades of use. But if it is late Friday night, and you have a wheezing kid, it is important to get antibiotics into that kid NOW, and the kid may not last until morning. The ones I like to have on hand are:

Biomycin (Oxytetracycline, with a numbing agent so that it doesn't sting. It is OTC)
Naxcel [Rx] 
Nuflor [Rx]

Worming medications differ from region to region, depending upon what is still useful in the area. Through long-term use, parasites become resistant to wormers...that is true for both natural and chemical wormers. So the wormer one should have on hand in case of parasite bloom should be what works in your area.

That is what I can think of off of the top of my head right now. I am sure others will be able to fill in my gaps.


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## Frosted Mini's

madrona said:


> *CaliannG* - fantastic thread. i agree it should be sticky!
> 
> I don't have goats yet but would like a list of things I need to have at the ready BEFORE I bring the goats home, so I'm not frantically running to my local Drive Thru Feed for something new everyday for a week until I'm all stocked up. Assuming they're bottle fed does.
> The obvious:
> Fencing
> Shelter
> Food (what kind? alfalfa, hay, grain? if weaned)
> Minerals?
> Food bin of some kind (plastic tub...??)
> Water feeder (what kind??)
> Leash, collar?
> bottles/milk/colustrum (if not weaned?)
> 
> I don't know what else, but I'd love a comprehensive list, maybe separated into 1) necessary 2) nice to have
> 
> Is there a thread where people talk about what a typical care/feeding schedule might look like for 1 full day?
> 
> Thanks for being so patient with all of my questions!


Since you are planning to get bottle kids, you shouldn't need to have colostrum on hand until they are old enough to be kidding themselves (so those buying pregnant does, may need to consider this). You do want to be sure they have received their colostrum, however. But, it really does no good except for maybe as a laxative past the first 24 hours, and especially the first 12 hours. I use trash cans to store grain. If you can get good alfalfa hay, like me, then go with that. If not, a high calcium diet is still going to be important for the baby kids, especially, when they are first weaning...any legume should be good, or you can use alfalfa pellets or chaffhaye.


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## Oat Bucket Farm

After losing a goat to goat polio, Thiamine is on my must have can't wait even a half an hour to get my hands on list.


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## Prov31Wife

If someone mentioned this already, or if it is general knowledge, I apologize, but: as general care of goats, you also have to trim their hooves. They are somewhat soft like fingernails and need to be trimmed.


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## CaliannG

Prov31Wife, thank you for mentioning that!

Yes, goats need to have their hooves trimmed regularly, else they will overgrow and cause problems, just like with horses. The difference is that you can normally trim a goat's hoof yourself.


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## Prov31Wife

We had goats when I was a teenager, and my job was to "wrangle" them so Dad could worm them or trim their hooves.

I am looking to get back into them now as an adult, so this was very helpful for me. I remember helping take care of them, but now I would be the main one in charge of their care *gulp*


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## Cygnet

Goats are destructive. They need to be kept in their own very secure pens as they'll eat the siding (or stucco) off the house, eat the bark off your trees, eat cactus to the ground, dance on your vehicles (the shiny new ones are more attractive) and if, at all possible, they'll eat the neighbor's laundry while they're at it. 

You need either a handyman on call or a very basic knowledge of carpentry, because they WILL chew holes in their barn or shed. I've seen a smallish Nubian wether put a hole through 1/2" plywood in the course of one afternoon. The piece of plywood (at the back of a run in shed) was replaced with 7/8ths inch, normally used for flooring. He hit it so hard and so many times that the 2 1/2" screws -- not nails -- pulled out. We'd used plentiful screws. After that, we just left a hole in the shed. The goat wanted one there and it wasn't worth arguing with him about it. 

Did I mention that goat was three-legged?

They will put holes in the heaviest fencing, they will find ways to defeat electric, if you use inedible steel fence posts they will pee on them until they rust, they'll knock gates of the hinges, they'll break welds on pipe fencing, and for animals that hate water they're incredibly talented at causing floods. Goats with horns will use them as pry bars and hammers for an extra, added, level of destruction.

When you build stuff for goats, build with elephants in mind. Then plan on replacing everything next year.


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## Goat Servant

Find yourself a mentor! Put the # on a wall, in your barn notes. Three or four is better, especially close by.
I once needed help pulling kids. Vet wasnt going to get there in due time. A friend came to hold doe. He was invaluable!
Called vet to say I wouldnt need her services.


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## Oat Bucket Farm

And put together a goat book. Something that has all of the meds and dewomers and their dosages. Its a good place to record the weight of each goat, when they were last dewormed, hoof trimmed, vaccinated etc. You can also put diseases and their symptoms in there too, in case you have a problem and can't get in touch with anyone quick.


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## HappyYooper

A question from someone who is thinking about getting a couple goats in the future but







...how do YOU ALL keep your goats contained? Can you recommend some good books to read?


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## CAjerseychick

Well our vet told us the CL/CAE could be false positive before the goats are 8 months old- and 5 of our herd werent old enough at the time-- now, the 7 month old has a swelling under his ear (Mom was tested ) I am terrified it is CL. Vet is coming and I will have them tested--
Vet (she has 150 pygmies, so is a goat vet I suppose) says that CL can be transmitted by any fly landing on your goat that has fed off a CL goat - and it is fly season around here--

that make me feel sorta hopeless! How are you going to keep your goats clean (even if they clean to begin with ) if any ole fly can infect them?!.....
Comments, thoughts, anyone?


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## Alice In TX/MO

About age of goats for testing from biotracking.com
Q.	When should goats be tested for CAE?

A.	Marginal result can be an indication of a recent CAE exposure as antibodies are building up in the serum, or this may be the result of a false positive, possibly from the presence of non-CAE antibodies which can interfere with the test. We suggest you wait for 6 &#8211; 8 weeks after any vaccinations, injuries or illness symptoms are gone and resubmit for a confirmation.

Kids less than 6 - 9 months old may test positive for CAE if they have received heat-treated colostrum containing CAE antibodies. We suggest retesting these kids after nine months of age to determine their true status.

Me again....
Yes, it is my understanding that flies can carry CL. I don't have any CL positive goats, and no goats live near mine.


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## CAjerseychick

Heres an excerpt from a CL article I read, very interesting, it seems to me that once your goat has had CL its immune?

"The goats body is generally pretty good at abscessing all of the bacteria at the lymphatic point of entry. Thus, as most goat owners who treat CL abscesses find, a doe will only have one abscess. Once removed/treated it is gone (though the doe will still have the antibodies, after all she's been 'vaccinated' by the CL assault). Sometimes the goats defense system will miss a few and will have to form a second or third abscess to catch them all. With human intervention in the form of abscess removal or treatment, the animal can be 'cured'. If not treated the abscess bursts and those crafty CL bacteria will continue infecting the animal until it ultimately kills it. Of course bacteria want to survive so when an external abscess bursts the bacteria now has the opportunity to find itself another goat. "

So it is the other goats you are worried about? Or will the goat keep getting abcesses? 

Heres the link to the article its by someone working for the Army, who managed this in their herd for years...

http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=68


I feel like CL is already on our land (no way with my family, that true isolation has occurred, came home to find Hubby using the same feed scoop for the CL goat and the others)....
so if we get down to 4 goats maybe just manage it?..
And no breeding for us...


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## Pony

CAjerseychick said:


> Heres an excerpt from a CL article I read, very interesting, it seems to me that once your goat has had CL its immune?
> 
> "The goats body is generally pretty good at abscessing all of the bacteria at the lymphatic point of entry. Thus, as most goat owners who treat CL abscesses find, a doe will only have one abscess. Once removed/treated it is gone (though the doe will still have the antibodies, after all she's been 'vaccinated' by the CL assault). Sometimes the goats defense system will miss a few and will have to form a second or third abscess to catch them all. With human intervention in the form of abscess removal or treatment, the animal can be 'cured'. If not treated the abscess bursts and those crafty CL bacteria will continue infecting the animal until it ultimately kills it. Of course bacteria want to survive so when an external abscess bursts the bacteria now has the opportunity to find itself another goat. "
> 
> So it is the other goats you are worried about? Or will the goat keep getting abcesses?
> 
> Heres the link to the article its by someone working for the Army, who managed this in their herd for years...
> 
> http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=68
> 
> 
> I feel like CL is already on our land (no way with my family, that true isolation has occurred, came home to find Hubby using the same feed scoop for the CL goat and the others)....
> so if we get down to 4 goats maybe just manage it?..
> And no breeding for us...


While it would be nice if this were true, the experience of local goatkeepers who maintain a CL positive herd indicates otherwise.

There may be no more external lesions, but plenty more inside the animal. 

I will go do some searching, but at this point, I believe that Jeffers' article is not helpful and, in fact, may be hurtful.


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## Alice In TX/MO

That article is WRONG. Very simply wrong. Bad info. 

CL infected goats can and will continue to get abscesses. I have a friend with Nigerian Dwarfs, and she watches for and treats abscesses with formalin. THEY GET REPEATED ABSCESSES! Some abscesses may be internal, too.

Jeffers owners should be ashamed.

Edited to add: They are posting this about Boer goats, and most of us aren't milking Boers. What you can tolerate in a meat herd (i.e. a bad infection that isn't controlled) is different from a dairy herd. My opinion is that I don't want to run the risk of an abscess in the udder of a goat from which I am taking milk for home use.

I have written a letter to Jeffers customer service asking that they edit the article.


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## CAjerseychick

Ok thanx for the info guys, the affected goat was my Nigerian, that was going to be herd sire for our dairy goats- to make miniObherhaslis, he has been removed from the dairy goats...(isolation before abcess burst and it was treated)...


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## Pony

Frankly, I'm not comfortable eating meat from a CL positive animal. Too much risk, esp for those with compromised immunity.


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## CAjerseychick

Pony said:


> Frankly, I'm not comfortable eating meat from a CL positive animal. Too much risk, esp for those with compromised immunity.


Nope he went out to pasture with a bunch of other Craigslist goats, for weed eating. 40 acres in the central valley. And he was CL negative.


Ohhh I see - you were maybe referencing the difference between meat (Boer) goat owners and dairy goat owners.... hmm- yes I do think its an interesting difference.

Our goats are our pets, with benefits... (we do want to use the milk when its available)....


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## Alice In TX/MO

I emailed Jeffers, and they said they have NOTHING to do with that article or the claims therein.

Here's the quote:
Jeffers has no control over what information appears on other websites.

We suggest that you contact the writer of the article and take the issue up with them. 

Regards,
Averil mcKnight

* * *
I replied that the website has their banner and logo at the top.

I have now emailed the author of the article requesting that she edit the article to clarify that her recommendations do not apply to dairy goats.


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## Pony

I have to wonder what qualifies a chemist to authoritatively discuss infectious disease and zoonoses.


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## mom2mnem

The links in the OP are not valid anymore.


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## Pony

mom2mnem said:


> The links in the OP are not valid anymore.


Actually, the one on CAE is fine. The one on CL appears to have a glitch.

I went ahead and posted it to the Admin support forum, but next time you come across a broken link, you can do the same thing.


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## arabian knight

Pony said:


> Actually, the one on CAE is fine. The one on CL appears to have a glitch.
> 
> I went ahead and posted it to the Admin support forum, but next time you come across a broken link, you can do the same thing.


It is also 11 years old. Nothing stays forever on the net.


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## havenacres1

I have a very healthy doe. My Star Milker. Has has several kids for me..breeding for Blue eyes and milk line thru her. However, Last year's kids weren't bred thru my bucks but thru a borrowed from a friend's buck, and 1of her triplets is showing signs of CAE. Front knee swelling causing limping..comes and goes. The other 2 are showing no signs whatsoever. Luckily he is a whether so don't have to worry about him spreading it. Haven't had testing in my herd due to cost. Basically, do I now have to assume that my doe is CAE positive? Is there no other way for him to have gotten this. Genetics from the buck per chance? I mean, I know they say it's a "virus" strain..but in the human world viruses are passed and then gone leaving no antibodies to ward off the virus again.


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## Pony

Is your doe CAE negative? If not, you can't assume she is because she's asymptomatic. The disease can lie dormant for quite a while before manifesting. 

I would not assume CAE positive, though, without a test. Biotracking is $4 for the test. If you can swing it, the investment in your peace of mind will be worth it. 

http://www.biotracking.com/?q=labs/sageaglabs


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## Caprice Acres

In the human and animal world, how the virus infects/transmits and how the body responds in the body depends on many, many things. Some infections can be cleared, some are latent, some are persistent, some acute, some chronic. There is extreme genetic diversity in some types of viruses, and different classes of viruses that create different infections, symptoms, and responses. 

CAE is a retrovirus, meaning it inserts its DNA into infected host cells. This is what makes it incurable, and how antibodies can hold pretty consistently through the life. CAE virus is highly genetically variable and this can lead to different virulence between different strains - which is why sometimes you hear of CAE spreading readily horizontally within a herd, and other herds keep positives with negatives and have never had it spread to others in the herd. 

It's worth it to test everybody because there are other reasons for arthritis.


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## terigro212

susanne said:


> my understanding from cae is that it is very similar to the human hiv. that means it is also transmitted through mating. how many does are getting cae after breeding and how long does it take to test positiv if the buck was infected? and how about the buck, can he get infected if he is getting breed to a cae positiv doe?
> i got two nubian does that are breed to a fb boer. none of them were tested before. when would be the best time to test them? and if positive can i still have negative kids? i will get another doe next week and she is tested negative. since she went to a nubian buck wich was probable not tested how big is the possibiliy that she is getting cae?
> if i have to bottle feed the kids with pastorised colostrum they will not get enough antibody for building a healthy imune system. also some vitamins are heat sensitive. how to deal with this problem?
> there are so many articels about cae on the internet but none of them are going really in dept. i'm a little bit confused
> susanne



You can breed the Doe if they have CAE but you have to pull the kiddo as soon as it is born and bottle feed. You can still milk the doe for your self. Humans can not catch CAE. 
CL yes they can catch that disease.
CAE DOES milk is actually good for people also that have Aides.
We have been raising 100 plus does at one time and learned a lot over the years.


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