# How to tell if C&B rifle has a round in it?



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

The ram road sticks out of the barrel 4 fingers. Don't know why I should think I have a ball in it, but I do. Don't have a ball puller yet.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

What if you put the ramrod down the barrel, marked it where the muzzle is, then put it alongside the barrel on the outside and see if comes close to the end of the barrel?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

That shows theres room for 4 or 5 balls, 58 cal. I suppose theres a certain amount of filling at the end to take the shock of discharge that would take up some of that space.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Why not put a cap on it point it at the ground, and pull the trigger...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> Why not put a cap on it point it at the ground, and pull the trigger...


becuase you don't know if it is loaded powder ball powder ball 


farmboybill I assume you mean persecution muzzle loader and not cap and ball carbine that would have a cylinder 

4 fingers could gove you room for soem powder a 58 cal ball more powder and a 58 cal ball

the advice about measuring from the muzzle to the flash channel is correct there are different breach designs but not many place the nipple very far from the breech 


my advice is call up track of the wolf , and order their ball puller and a creedmorre rod this is a one piece stainless steel rod great range rod.

I have tried several ball pullers , hands down the track of the wolf has the geometry right the point is sharp it works better than any other i have tried 

or take it to a Smith 

either way start soaking the breech in kerosene , diesel or penetrating oil it will kill the powder and make getting the ball out easier , put a bit down the barrel 

some times you can blow a ball out from the back side 

I have even heard of finding a grease zert with the same thread as the nipple and using the grease gun to hydraulically push the ball and charge out that does leave you with barrel full of grease


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I have shot a few caps through it. Dosnt do anything. The nipple sets right at the end of the barrel. Yeah, Ill get a puller. Boy wants me to go deer hunting with him and his wife and boy. I havnt been hunting since 68.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Use a air compressor and one of those nozzles to blow in where the nipple screws into the bolster. That would move the change if any is present, they even sell a kit to do it with a co2 cartridge.

 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> Use a air compressor and one of those nozzles to blow in where the nipple screws into the bolster. That would move the change if any is present, they even sell a kit to do it with a co2 cartridge.
> 
> Al



I have done that also , but if the patch isn't lubed well or the charge has been siting a long time it won't work 

lube is still your friend squirt some oil down the barrel let it soak into the patch

but I agree if he has a compressor that should be a try before buying anything 

but keep the gun pointed in a safe direction , because when it does work it works well enough that the ball shoots out with enough force to hurt someone or break things like windows or go through wall board


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Blow through the nipple and see if air comes out the barrel, or if using a compressor or canned air from the muzzle.
Don't stick the muzzle in your mouth. :umno:


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## hdsjr (Mar 25, 2016)

Go to your auto parts store and find a grease fitting that fits the nipple threads. Force it out with pressure from your hand-operated grease gun. Have a couple of tubes of grease handy. Safe, messy and effective.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hdsjr said:


> Go to your auto parts store and find a grease fitting that fits the nipple threads. Force it out with pressure from your hand-operated grease gun. Have a couple of tubes of grease handy. Safe, messy and effective.


That's messy, but it's the safest way and it almost always works.

Before doing that though, I'd fire another cap with a patch stuck *lightly* in the end of the barrel. 

If the patch moves there's nothing in the barrel


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I tried that. I fired a cap through it outside, then brought it inside as it was kinda windy, and put one section of tissue paper on it capped and fired it. Nothing. Guess that tells the tale


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> I tried that. I fired a cap through it outside, then brought it inside as it was kinda windy, and put one section of tissue paper on it capped and fired it. Nothing. Guess that tells the tale


Have you unscrewed the nipple to see if it's blocked?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

nope. Ill try that next IF I can find my nipple wrench since moving.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Here is a hint that may or may not have been said.
Check the ramrod for a mark.

Those of us who use muzzle loaders on a regular basis will put a mark on the ramrod to tell when it is empty. 
When the ram rod is in the barrel the mark should be at the muzzle. It could be anything from a piece of tape, a Sharpie / marker line around the ramrod etc.
This way we can tell at a glance if there is a load in the rifle.

So look at the last 4 inch you have sticking out and see if there is a mark.

There is also another way to tell.
Take a metal rod and drop it into the barrel. If you hear a ping, it is hitting the breach plug/bottom, if you hear a thud you are hitting lead or a patched ball, or the bottom is extremely dirty.. 
This is one of the things I check on our repro Civil War rifles when doing a safety inspection. It tells me if it is clean, dirty or loaded with a foreign object. But then again we are using long metallic ramrods.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I got 2 rounds in it. Got one out. My cleaning kit rods are 1in short of getting another round. I 1/2 unscrewed each of the 3 sections, the remover, and the hand knob on top, and though I reached it, I couldn't get enough bight to bring it out. Im taking my rods to town tomorrow and buy another set so as to have a extra rod to make it 4 sections instead of 3,
I ran a finishing nail into the nipple hole, and dug around all I could with it. Need a Allen wrench to take it off, and all my tools are in a 8 X 8 building.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Found that I had 2 rounds in it. Got one out. My cleaning rods are 1in to short to get the other one. Im going tomorrow to buy another cleaning kit with the same size rods that mine has so I can screw onto mine another section of rod.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

FarmboyBill said:


> I got 2 rounds in it. Got one out. My cleaning kit rods are 1in short of getting another round. I 1/2 unscrewed each of the 3 sections, the remover, and the hand knob on top, and though I reached it, I couldn't get enough bight to bring it out. Im taking my rods to town tomorrow and buy another set so as to have a extra rod to make it 4 sections instead of 3,
> I ran a finishing nail into the nipple hole, and dug around all I could with it. Need a Allen wrench to take it off, and all my tools are in a 8 X 8 building.



Ah, I get it now.
You are trying to remove the bullets with a standard 3 piece cleaning rods.
Which most times aren't long enough for muzzleloaders. 

You can also pull the barrel off of the stock and unscrew the breach plug. WARNING if this is an old rifle or a abused rifle, the breach plug may be rusted fast and almost impossible to remove with out applying lots of heat..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

beowoulf90 said:


> Ah, I get it now.
> You are trying to remove the bullets with a standard 3 piece cleaning rods.
> Which most times aren't long enough for muzzleloaders.
> 
> You can also pull the barrel off of the stock and unscrew the breach plug. WARNING if this is an old rifle or a abused rifle, the breach plug may be rusted fast and almost impossible to remove with out applying lots of heat..


WARNING if it is a cva , traditions , junkar or one of the many spanish made muzzle loader reproductions you also can't take the breach off


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> WARNING if it is a cva , traditions , junkar or one of the many spanish made muzzle loader reproductions you also can't take the breach off



Good to know!
I have T/C's and an underhammer ( a repro made in the 1950's of a Hopkins and Allen by Numrich Arms) that I got a while back, but have never shot. Plus my US Civil War Repro Springfield by ArmiSport and an Enfield by EuroArms (no longer in existence) Both allow for the breech plug to be removed. 
I don't know if my original 1862 Tower (What we can an Enfield today) can be removed.

Plus a half dozen or so pistols, C&B (no BP) and Flint.. I know at least one of them can be removed, but uncertain of another that is a smooth bore about 67 cal. I've never fired it other than blanks (powder only).


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

How can you have C&B and yet not have them BP?

Couldn't get the puller to take out the bottom ball, so Ill take off the nipple and dig out what powder I can and repour it and try that.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

FarmboyBill said:


> How can you have C&B and yet not have them BP?
> 
> Couldn't get the puller to take out the bottom ball, so Ill take off the nipple and dig out what powder I can and repour it and try that.


If you are asking me, I was referring to reproduction C&B revolvers, which don't have a breech plug in the cylinder. If you need to remove a ball from the cylinder you can remove the nipple from the back of the cylinder and remove the round by inserting a punch etc.
You can actually see the ball in the cylinder from the front and if need be run a screw into it and pull out the ball. Remember the cylinder is smaller and you don't need to reach 30" or more to get to the loaded round.

Does that answer your question?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I think he is saying he is going to pack some black powder behind the nipple and use it to blow the charge out.

be careful with that , you can cause a hang fire that may take many seconds to go off and it can't be trusted 

keep it in a safe direction from the first time you do that till the ball is out or you have soaked the breach for an hour


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

What if theres NOT enough powder at the nipple to blow the ball completely out?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> What if theres NOT enough powder at the nipple to blow the ball completely out?


the question would be is it a ball with no powder under it then powder then the ball you got out 

if it is powder ball powder ball you removed then any thing with enough power to push it out should set off the main charge 

unless you have an obstruction in the flash channel , or that ball has welded it's self in with corrosion generally you can get a ball put down on no powder out whit what you trickle in behind the nipple and shake down the flash channel 

but it depends if the barrel is rough or the the patch lubed 

when you do finally get this out a very good cleaning and inspection is in order if the bore is smooth and you get a pipe cleaner , the one with the metal spines for actually cleaning out a tobacco pipe all the way through the flash channel and make sure it is cleaned out well , use a natural lube to oil it while still warm from a hot water flush and after running dry patches , then when all clean and ready for storage , fold a rag over a few times and rubber band it to the muzzle , then store it muzzle down , this keeps the oil from collecting in the flash channel and making a hard fouling 

oh and when you take it out to sight it in , mark your ram rod at empty , at your powder charge and at powder patch and ball fully loaded label them E P L then if you ever load a ball without powder you will see you are up the same distance from empty that you are from P to L and know it is time to get the puller out 

I teach youth muzzle loading and pull my share of patch and ball not down on powder , to the point where I am wondering if we need separate boys and girls loading benches it seems every time I have a young lady of a certain age on the line , I pull more , but it isn't her forgetting to put powder down 

by the way packing powder behind the nipple has some risks , and I would never let the kids do it , I may have done it a few times 

the inline are nice that you can unscrew the breach plug and push the load out also with the recent jump in cost of #11 caps the 209 primers are half the price


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Well I guess ive cored a hole through the center of the bullet. had a strong pull on it, but it pulled free. Tried to blow it out by putting powder behind the nipple and it blew out the end of the barrel. I had my er beside the end of the barrel, and could hear, AND FEEL the blast coming out.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> Well I guess ive cored a hole through the center of the bullet. had a strong pull on it, but it pulled free. Tried to blow it out by putting powder behind the nipple and it blew out the end of the barrel. I had my er beside the end of the barrel, and could hear, AND FEEL the blast coming out.


Use a larger diameter screw or some threaded rod.
I find it hard to believe though that you pulled out the center of a lead ball and left the rest in the barrel. Was there lead on the threads of the ball puller?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

YEs, there was lead on the threads of the screw.

They don't make threaded rod that long that ive ever seen.

Ive only seen one size thread for a ball puller.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

You can get threaded rod in 3 foot lengths.

It would need to be just a little bigger than the screw that ripped out.

Screw it into the bullet as far as it will go, then stack some flat washers over the end of the barrel and screw on a nut so you can use a wrench to turn it and pull the bullet out.

Don't worry if the rod turns since it will eventually bottom out on the breech plug.

Once you have it all set up, spray some PB Blaster down the barrel and it should make it easy to pull.

If you can't do all that, take it to a gunsmith who can.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I know they make 3ft lengths of rod. I also know the barrel, once you got the rod an inch inch into the bullet is 3ft. Just measured it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> I know they make 3ft lengths of rod. I also know the barrel, once you got the rod *an inch inch into the bullet* is 3ft. Just measured it.


All you need is half an inch sticking out of the barrel.
The bullet isn't over an inch long. A ball won't be more than 1/2 an inch.

Or take it to someone who knows what to do.
Deer season is going to be over before you figure it out at this rate.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

If you feel you need more length just butt weld two pieces together


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

CR, Ive thought of that, and every time I do, I think, If that weld breaks, im screwed lol


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> CR, Ive thought of that, and every time I do, I think, If that weld breaks, im screwed lol


So weld it proper


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

seems to me that IF I DID do that, that the torque used in getting a bigger rod threaded into the bullet would be taken up in the length of that small dia rod. Im assuming a 32nd dia rod
AND
IF I weld another rod to that rod, I cant use the washer and nut idea


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> seems to me that IF I DID do that, that the torque used in getting a bigger rod threaded into the bullet would be taken up in the length of that small dia rod. Im assuming a* 32nd dia rod*
> AND
> IF I weld another rod to that rod, I cant use the washer and nut idea


You need 1/4" or 5/16" rod

*Take the gun to someone who knows what they are doing
*


> IF I weld another rod to that rod, I cant use the washer and nut idea


Of course you can.
See the answer above.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Sure are wasting a bunch of time worrying over this thing. 
Use either air or grease to push the load out or as stated take it to some one that knows what they are doing.


 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> Sure are wasting a bunch of time worrying over this thing.
> Use either air of grease to push the load out or as stated take it to some one that knows what they are doing.
> 
> 
> Al



I think he is left with seeking professional help , he drilled a hole through the ball with the ball puller


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Weld a lag bolt on a 3/8 inch rod. 

 Al


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I think he is left with seeking professional help , he drilled a hole through the ball with the ball puller



Sometimes that is the best option!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Well I bought 2 extensions, and a long shanked 3/8ths spade drill bit, and hopefully drilled the bullet out. After running it down a couple times, I ground off the point nearly to the spade part and ran it in hard again. I took the nipple off and could put in as much powder as I wanted.
But
There is/was a tiny screw at the end of the round part that went tinto the barrel and to which the nipple was attached, which I lost. Anybody got an idea as to size. Its a Hawken Replica.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

:nanner: Every one made Hawkins rep, TC, Traditions, CVA, Browning, Lyman and many others. Most are different is some way.

 Al


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Yeah, that's about what I thought.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> Well I bought 2 extensions, and a long shanked 3/8ths spade drill bit, and hopefully drilled the bullet out. After running it down a couple times, I ground off the point nearly to the spade part and ran it in hard again. I took the nipple off and could put in as much powder as I wanted.
> But
> There is/was a tiny screw at the end of the round part that went tinto the barrel and to which the nipple was attached, which I lost. Anybody got an idea as to size. Its a Hawken Replica.


There should be a brand name on the barrel somewhere.
You may have to take it out of the stock to find it.

If you drilled the center of any bullet with a .375 drill, you left lead inside.

You* really* should take it to a gunsmith, preferably one with a bore scope.

You may now have what amounts to a .5 inch piece of .062 wall lead pipe stuck in the bore


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

HUMMMMMMMMM, would not touch it with a ten foot pole.

 Al


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