# Sticky  Extreme Composting



## Forerunner

I've put this off long enough.

It snowed....... again.:grumble:

My work outside is buried.
The timing of the Michigan meeting and the need for incentive 
inspires me, so, here goes......


I have long been an extremist, taking normal activities to their absolute most ridiculous extreme for no other reason than to amuse myself with what can be done by one man if effort is applied...... and, composting is no exception.
I had no long-term ambitions when I started my first pile in the late 90s, (after a few years dormancy since my youth) other than to make fertile soil to feed my family. Well, as usual, opportunities have since come knocking and I've turned none of them away. Things got out of hand....

This isn't my first pile, and I didn't build it just with that pitchfork.....but I don't have a picture of my first.









Here is a dated pile, taken a month before the power company came to take their poles....









Here is a picture of what was the biggest pile for a couple years.









Here's another shot of that pile as it grew.









Here are the humble beginnings of the new, main pile, as the latter has been spread on the fields.









Here's another pile built from our own stall cleanings.









....and here is an up and coming compost engineer standing on the new, main pile as it grows.









The focus of this thread is going to be on sources of material and how one man can make extensive use of what the world throws away.
Obviously, if this catches on, such waste material will regain its long lost sense of value, and I say it can't happen soon enough.
Between the yard waste, farm waste, kitchen/restaurant waste, sale barns, food processing plants, sawmills, animal shelters, barber shops, stone cutting facilities, municipal sewage disposal, etc. there is ample, mineral and nutrient-rich material being wasted to at least keep ME up nights...

Following will be a rather haphazard narration, illustrated, of how I've made use of what is readily available. I have tried to get others interested, and they are, but they like to watch me, rather than take up the pitchfork, themselves. The day will come, I am sure, but until then, I gather.....

Feel free to comment. I'm going to make installments to this thread over the course of the next week or so.


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## Windy in Kansas

Rather than making large piles have you considered scattering the material onto fields and simply sheet composting? That should work when there is no growing crop on the land. 

No matter which method one uses I'll bet your soil is teeming with worms and the soil has become dark, rich, and deep with great tilth. 

Way to go!


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## salmonslayer

Forerunner, I know that you need about 140 degree or better to kill bacteria from animal waste so do you take mechanical temp readings in your pile or do you just judge the breakdown by looks, smell, etc. before using on food crops?


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## Forerunner

Having been somewhat of a woodsman all my life, and cutting my share of firewood, cleaning up maple groves to facilitate more enjoyable syruping, clearing township roads of brush, etc. it naturally fit that I procure a wood chipper. We made extensive use of the outfit pictured below, and used the chips for bedding, mulch, paths around the house, and, of course, for compost base.









After years of working so hard for wood chips (work which I enjoyed, but others did out of a sense of duty, more or less) imagine my surprise when my father told me about Canton's municipal yard waste dump.
Tree services, private individuals, city parks, street sweeper, etc. all dump material here year 'round. They were either spreading it out to moulder, then shoving it over the hill.... or burning it. 










Here's a shot of the grass clipping and leaf piles that were everywhere.....










There were stump grindings, piles of someone's wet hay, spoiled straw, excess garden produce, corn stalks, etc. etc. etc.
It didn't take long for me to start making regular trips, 15 miles one way, with tractor and wagon.


































Now, obviously, my initial efforts at the yard waste dump were rather labor intensive. I had the big tractor, and only one wagon short enough to facilitate loading by hand. My backhoe is old, and I hate driving it long distances, so a change was in order.......


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## Forerunner

Having the equipment and the time, I'd rather make the piles and compost them properly.
Materials like grass clippings, leaves and slightly aged manure I would incorporate directly, but I come up with some nasty stuff,  pics of which will be forthcoming.
I NEED the heat. 
I don't temp test my piles other than to watch the steam rise and occasionally dig in to a pile and burn my hand for fun. According to Joe Jenkins (Humanure Handbook), a sustained 110 degrees is hot enough to kill pathogens. My piles will burn your hand, so I'm sure I'm regularly hitting the 150 degree range and, given the yardage I'm dealing with, maintaining that temp for months.


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## fishhead

Why not tell the waste haulers to come to your place and pay you for dumping?

Do you use the compost heat to heat your home or other buildings?


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## Forerunner

We'll get to who hauls it to me, and how that came to be.
I do use the heat from the pile that sits against the house.

I posted a bit about that in the garden forum.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=338293


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## Forerunner

It's funny to me now, after years of being in the demolition and excavating business..... I've made some major investments in my time, but this little 3010 Deere, with loader, weighing in at $ten grand, has been the most valuable yet. We bought it late last summer, and I'm sure I've put 5000 miles on it already.










Having procured the loader tractor, the next step was to get away from running gear wagons and build something with serious weight hauling capacity and durability. I went out to the scrap yard and looked around.
An old single axle semi tractor tentatively raised it's hand, so I drug it up to the shop and started doing surgery.










After removing some key extra pieces, I cut and bent the frame together in front and moved the project inside.










A strong hitch is crucial.










I built two of these. Here is the finished frame on the second one.
It burned in the fire shortly after I built the hoist and box for it....










I had built a steel dump box for one of my running gears, and used oak planks for the runners. Here I'm replacing the oak with some 7 inch steel beams in preparation to put that box on my heavy trailer.
The backhoe comes in handy for tweaking otherwise uncooperative chunks of heavy steel for welding.










I couldn't be happier with the finished dump trailer. 
It will haul ten tons with ease. I've had 13 tons on that single axle.
What amazes me is that the 3010 handles that dump wagon AND a regular running gear dump wagon behind it. I regularly haul 16-18 tons.
My larger tractor, a 4630 Deere, does a far better job of pulling long, steep hills, but it drinks more diesel, too......


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## Shepherd

I've really enjoyed reading about this! Anxious to hear more.


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## Forerunner

For those who may not have seen them, I wrote some nuts and bolts articles about my composting experience, and Angie created a link where they can all be found, here:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=332336


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## Callieslamb

Great pictures! Okay, why does my barn 'pile' not look like yours? Mine doesn't even melt the snow off the top of it. It is just straw, hay and manure. Too much straw? Or could it be working down inside and not on the outside layers? What can I do to get it to heat up? Since I put hay in my stalls this year for bedding, I want it composted really well before I use it in the garden. Otherwise, I will have to find some one with a "LITTLE" 3010 to come visit to spread it on my fields. The pile is way too large to leave it where it is!!!


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## Forerunner

If you build the pile cold, it may not heat until the thaw.
If you add cold material to a working pile, it may take a few days, but the heat will spread. My experience is such that too much manure is more detrimental to heating than too much carbon.
Once the pile is built, if it absolutely refuses to heat, you may have to turn it. The easiest way to do that is to simply re-pile it next to the original. The easiest way to do that is with a loader.  I try hard to err on the side of overmaturing a pile rather than spreading material not quite digested. The difference in the crop is definitely worth the wait.


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## 7thswan

Tell me about the Electric company coming and taking the poles. This has my jaw on the desk.


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## Forerunner

Somewhere in the vicinity of the year 2000, I asked the power company if a social security number was required to maintain an electrical hookup.

They said no. I asked for that in writing. They hemmed, and before they hawed, I told them to pull the plug. It was five years or so after when they finally consented to my wife's incessant badgering for them to remove the poles. I guess the time lapse was necessary for them to decide we were serious.

Told you I was extreme.

I've been making my own power ever since. We burn three gallons of gasoline a week to power the house and a small shop.


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## Forerunner

Now back to compost 

After making multiple trips to the Canton yard waste dump, still with a pitchfork or two for loading..... the city workers began to take notice.
They didn't seem to object to my frequent withdrawals.
I asked one of them, early on, whether or not it would be OK for me to bring my backhoe in and hire a semi or two to make some real progress.
The man promptly handed me the phone number of Canton's public works superintendent. I tried calling him once, and got no answer.
As I was already in process getting my loader tractor bought and delivered, I wasn't terribly concerned.

A few weeks later, I had the loader, and two dump wagons, and was loading away when the fellow who comes in with the Cat loader to push things around a couple times a week rolled over and opened his window. He asked, with a wry smile, "What the hell are you doin' with all this stuff ?" I told him I was making compost, and he got a look....
He left, and a few minutes later, a pretty important looking Public Works pickup truck pulled in....kinda fancy....
Turns out the driver was second in command....Canton Public Works.
The passenger was that curious loader operator. Turns out the two of them are pretty good friends and the loader man knew his boss/buddy would have a keen interest in what I was doing. He was right. "George", the boss, was a farmer at heart who had never followed his life's passion further than to tend a well-kept garden. When I told him my story, he almost started to cry. He told me that he had been hearing about me for a while now, and thought I was working too hard. We talked a bit about my operation and he expressed a sincere interest in paying a visit. I didn't know until I got home with my load that day that he was serious. He pulled in, city truck and all, right behind me. He was noticeably impressed with the size of my piles, and the deep green of the gardens. We talked about food, and then compost, and then wine, and then watermelons. Then he said he was going to have his crew start bringing me the yard waste in the city trucks because they were running out of room to dispose of it.

Then I just about cried.

So far, they've brought me over 150 dump truck loads.
As humbly as I can admit it, that increased the size of my pile by about 33%.
George retired in December. The city workers assure me that George's boss is as interested in maintaining the relationship as George was, but for other, more practical reasons. Apparently I've done them a tremendous favor, offering them a permanent place to dispose of yard waste...... delightful, but sad in a knowing sort of way.
Several of those city truck drivers are gardeners.....and they don't even compost. 

True to George's word, they showed up a few days later.


































Let me tell you, it was an odd feeling pushing up piles that I didn't have to haul.
Some days, they brought 25-30 loads. I didn't mind hanging around to shove the material up as they dumped.










There's nothing so satisfying as a tidy pile of rotting organic matter.
Notice the watermelons growing on the older pile to the right.
George inherited a pickup load of those when they came ripe. 
He made wine out of them.


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## Jerngen

I am really enjoying reading these


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## Windy in Kansas

I had no idea about the scale of your operation so understand about not sheet composting.

Sounds like a win win for all. Thanks, enjoyed the info.


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## 7thswan

Forerunner said:


> Somewhere in the vicinity of the year 2000, I asked the power company if a social security number was required to maintain an electrical hookup.
> 
> They said no. I asked for that in writing. They hemmed, and before they hawed, I told them to pull the plug. It was five years or so after when they finally consented to my wife's incessant badgering for them to remove the poles. I guess the time lapse was necessary for them to decide we were serious.
> 
> Told you I was extreme.
> 
> I've been making my own power ever since. We burn three gallons of gasoline a week to power the house and a small shop.


Well I sure don't blame you at all. I had just thought, They did it to spite you.


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## Ezekiel's Garde

Thank you for sharing!! You've inspired me!! I don't get near that amount, but can at least do my part with what we have around here between the chickens, the goats, and us...


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## Callieslamb

forerunner- that is amazing. What do you DO with all that compost. You cannot be putting it ALL in your own garden, do you? Do you market garden? 150 dump truck loads = 1/3 of your pile. I bet you cried to see them coming! Glad you have that arrangement. You need to write a book - with pictures!


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## Forerunner

I have no problem using all the compost I can manufacture.
My "garden" now encompasses roughly eight acres, here; one and a half up the road a mile and five at Dad's place, 2 miles away.
Slowly but surely, it's all turning black as coal.....
In time, I'll post pictures.....

Being in the composting business, I've enjoyed the opportunity to aid the community in the disposal of certain commodities that would otherwise be costly, if not somewhat wasteful to dispose of by previously accepted means.
Dead livestock has to be at the top of the list.
I honestly don't remember exactly when that started, nor the details of how, but word got out fairly quick, and there is a steady, yet manageable flow of deceased critters that just appear around here, and we incorporate them into the hot piles as fast as they come.
Sometimes it will be half a dozen calves. We've had as many sheep show up with a few goats to boot. There are hog confinement operations around that bring the unlucky pigs. A couple horse traders come up with the occasional cull. Several larger cattle feeders bring us their dead. The local sale barn adds their assortment. 
Years back..... oh, yeah.... that's how it began...
The local meat locker was owned by a friend, and I inquired about their offal.
He said he had a small market for the beef and hog waste, but needed a place to go with sheep, goat and deer..... so I told him to bring them out.
They brought me 600 and some odd deer carcasses the first season, and many more the second. Then, being a small operation, he went out of business about 5 years ago. But by then, word had gotten out. 
Now we have literally hundreds of dead animals either rotting or finished and spread. My trash pickers round up the bones after the compost is on the field and we dry them in the sun to be ground to bone meal in a heavy old pto powered feed mill. The chickens get all they want for scratch and mineral, and the rest is spread on the fields.

Here is a brief pictorial......


























































Now that particular dude was processed shortly after an extremely wet time when I was a little rich on nitrogen from the sale barn, and a little short on carbon due to not being able to get to it for the mud.
I buried him in the stall cleanings, anyway, and when carbon was forthcoming a few weeks later, I remixed that portion of the pile.
Any time I come across an animal that has stalled in it's decomposition, I add carbon and remix. Truth is, that doesn't happen often, and when the carbon ratio is right, a 1200 pound cow can go to rather odorless black gold and clean bones in 5-6 months....sometimes less.

I find it advantageous to stock up on carbons, preferably somewhat dry, and thereby always have a surplus for when that unexpected glut of nitrogen shows up. The piles here are almost always odor free. Carbon, i.e. sawdust, straw, wood chips, etc. is the key to that.
Always top the pile with a carbon shell.
That protects the interior from the detrimental effects of sun and wind, keeps the moisture level more stable, and prevents odors and fly/maggot infestations.
I also find the occasional load of used straw bedding or spoiled hay bales piled next to my compost mounds. A few wood workers bring out planer shavings and such. People bring road kills of all kinds, and I pick up road kill, including deer, when traveling between compost pickups.

The bones always make interesting conversation pieces for the occasional neighbor that shows up wanting a few loader buckets of compost placed in his/her truck or trailer. 

I never charge for the loading, nor the material.


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## Callieslamb

okay, I could have done without those last pictures.....But glad you have found a use for all kinds of stuff. Time for you to build a website and become MR Compost.....


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## Trisha in WA

Speeking as one who had no choice but to haul her very special but no longer living milk cow to the local dump, I say "thank you". A much more noble end to a loved pet. I did not have the room to compost her, or I would have.
Trisha


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## willow_girl

Great thread, Forerunner! Thanks for sharing the information and photos. 

Sometimes I think 75 percent of my homesteading consists of making dirt. LOL 

I could get *lots* of yard waste from my husband's neighborhood, but a lot of those homes use lawn services and have toxins sprayed at the first sign of weeds ... and I'd rather not have that in my compost! 

I'm not obsessively organic, but I don't apply any pesticides or herbicides. 

But, to each their own!

Now you must post pics of the fabulous garden you grew out of that compost!

And have you ever tried direct-sowing right into a compost pile?

I had some pumpkins germinate in a pile on my last farm. The vines were amazing!


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## mammabooh

I think this is the coolest thread I've ever read! Great job.


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## Forerunner

There have been occasions where a family will find out about my work, and bring the larger family pet in truck or trailer to be more honorably recycled.
The most memorable was the time when a friend of a horse friend called and asked if he could bring over a horse to be disposed of. Of course I accommodated him and he brought it that afternoon. 
He had several people with him, one of which was obviously his wife, another whom was obviously his daughter, and obviously the real owner of the horse.
She was in her late teens, rather attractive in an honest sort of way, and noticeably devastated. Never before that day and never since have I done such a delicate job of removing a large animal from the back of a trailer with a 17,000 pound machine.
I was thankful that I already had the depression carved in what was then an extensive sawdust pile. They didn't have much of a ceremony, but they were certainly grief-stricken. I covered the horse gently. The man thanked me with a tear or two in his eye and they scooped up that poor girl and took her home.
Anything is possible in this line of work.

On a lighter note, here is Caleb, happily planting red spuds in soil that used to be sand and clay. That crop came due last fall and was the best patch of potatoes we've raised yet.










Following is a series of pics taken by Wendy, of Matthew, the summer before she graduated life here. I didn't realize that Matthew, barely two, had been paying such rapt attention to his father's work, until Wendy showed me these pictures. Humbling, to say the least.

Loading up product for the job.









Sidetracked along the trail to feed some plant that apparently looked hungry.









Back on the job at hand, feeding Mother's red raspberries.









Pausing to enjoy a bit of the fruit of his labors.
A common sidetrack that afflicts the best of gardeners.....









Back to the task.









Submitting to what must have been an invitation to wax photogenic.









Compost......it's not just for old folks, anymore.


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## Forerunner

Willow Girl....... did you miss this, from a week or two ago ?

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=339842


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## Forerunner

*bows head humbly in somber recognition of a fellow Master, departed*

Oh, Rose...... he was one of the old school, for sure.

There are times and seasons and alignments of planets, moons and stars that have a direct correlation to the benefit that a man may not only impart to his compost pile, but realize in his own being as he bestows of himself to the teeming microbes at his feet, yet, the truth is much simpler than all of that.

A man and his compost pile are not unlike a man and his bride.

There is a communion.

Now just how reverent and deep that communion be is up to the man, and a wise man it is who understands how best to love and nurture his pile to mutual and stellar benefit.
The first time a man pees on his compost be, have he one or many, is just as important as the honeymoon night of a newly wed couple.

Now, in spite of being monogamous by nature in the social sense, I do support multiple compost piles...... but there is always that one that has my heart above all the others.
That is the pile with which I regularly commune.
It sits just outside my bedroom window and is thereby quick to access when the urge comes. 
It is a quick exit for me, in the middle of the night, when most often I am affronted by the lust to so commune with the pile, just outside the bedroom door and to the left, onto the porch, a few short steps to the east and there is experienced the ecstasy known eons past by earth-aware men of old.
It is by far the best on a clear night, under a full moon with a sky hidden in bright stars, be that in the heat of summer or the icy chill of January. 
As in other similar activities, it all starts out simply and innocently enough, almost routine. But as the act progresses, the true man of earth begins to experience a most rapturous sensation which culminates in near overwhelming climax...... man and pile at one..... microbes screaming their hearty cries of applause and thanksgiving.... the moon and stars, silent yet reverent witnesses to the loving act........

*pauses, overcome with emotion*


What more can I say ?


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## MullersLaneFarm

Having seen Forerunner's compost piles and gardens up close and personal back in the summer of 2005, I'm still in awe 5 years later. It put a whole other meaning to the concept of composting.

If anyone has a chance to go to Forerunner's place, go for it. The pictures just don't do it justice. The lush gardens, the odor free piles are simply amazing.


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## Jerngen

LOL!! Oh thanks for the chuckle this morning!!


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## mistletoad

rose2005 said:


> *I think you got it :happy:*
> 
> But what does peeing on your compost do for the compost? :hrm:
> 
> Rose


Adds nitrogen and liquid.


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## salmonslayer

I would also like to ask a question triggered by Willowgirls post. You are getting all of the waste from various entities around the city/county so you are getting various chemical fertilizers, herbicides etc. mixed into your compost, does this concern you or do you feel the composting breaks down the chemical residue?

As for the composting of bodies; seems like a pretty dignified way to be disposed of but do you ever have critter problems? I have a large compost pile here in Alaska but had to stop composting my fish parts because of bear problems (they dig right into the pile).


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## Forerunner

rose2005 said:


> *I think you got it :happy:*
> 
> But what does peeing on your compost do for the compost? :hrm:
> 
> Rose


:bored:

I thought it would be obvious.

:sob:


Salmon...... I'm sure there are some hormones, etc. in the carcasses and some occasional lawn chemicals in the grass clippings, etc., but I have no doubt about what the mighty microbes do with all that stuff, not to mention the heat.

It's funny, though..... often times when I'm in Canton loading up, folks will come over and assure me that there are no chemicals in their clippings, if I happen to load up from the pile they are dumping.....
It's like they are aware of the compromise and want recognition and approval for their version of abstinence. It's a start.

I do acknowledge that there could be a residual effect, but I'm willing to sacrifice that sense of purity for what I believe to be the greater good of raising awareness and providing an example of _action_ in a world full of spectators.

I don't have critter problems for the fact that they would have to outdig the backhoe to get to the meat. That said, there is occasional evidence of a coyote digging deep into the pile and finding a buried portion to chew on, but that gets covered with the next deposit.


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## fishhead

I put a sign on the road asking for clean leaves. Before long the yard maintenance trucks were dumping whole loads of leaves. When the leaves rotted down I started seeing "stuff" like chunks of foam rubber, glass jars and other things.

How do you steer clear of that "stuff"?


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## Forerunner

That stuff gets picked over when I'm loading, and picked up by my trash pickers after the material is spread. I consider it another necessary evil.
The material that can be used for heat in a wood stove is.
The material that can be recycled is.

In extreme cases, where they bring a truckload that is more "contaminated" than others, I compost the material in a separate area that won't be tilled.
I'm going to plant an orchard over that piece of ground and let the roots pick and choose their bedding material and nutrient supply. It will be sodded over and forgotten. In this late stage of the trashing of the earth, I consider it my duty to take the bad with the good and make the best of both.

I've never had anything come in that was a danger.
The people I work with have been good about not taking advantage, across the board. If there was an issue that warranted a confrontation, I would keep it as civil and directed toward positive results for all involved as possible.


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## salmonslayer

Thanks again for the straight forward answers and I appreciate your realistic attitude. Few of us can meet the purist ideals that are often strewn about, especially if your not made of money or time.


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## Linebacker

My hat is off to you Forerunner. Not only for your accomplishments; but your willingness to help others by teaching and showing compassion. I find it remarkable how you manage to dispel all of my excuses for not doing more than I do.

Brad


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## ronbre

i couldn't agree more that our tractor probably was our best investment ..other than our house..that we have ever made..woo hoo..sure am glad to have it


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## fishhead

I was just looking at some of the videos this guy has put up for free and it makes me think that a video of the composting process involving major amounts of material might be valuable to put on the web. It could inspire others.

http://www.khanacademy.org/


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## AnnieinBC

What a wonderful thread, and I Love those picitures!


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## Trisha in WA

The Humanure Handbook talks in great detail about toxins and chemicals breaking down in a properly maintained compost pile. I wouldn't be overly concerned about the small amount of chemicals that MIGHT get into the compost pile along with all the other good stuff. 
Just my opinion.


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## Pony

I bow to your composting mastery -- very impressive!

We put down one of our daughter's cats when she moved to MO, and he has become "one with the earth" through the wonder of composting. I only hope that, when my time comes, I will also be composted. It's so much more fitting than other ways...

We compost just about anything we can get our hands on here, including using sawdust toilets. And yes, Nick adds his personal nitrogen to the piles when the weather is accomodating, and encourages our male visitors to do the same. 

We're fortunate in that there is a local cabinetmaker who gives us his sawdust. It's just been hard to get to it with this crummy Winter weather.


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## Forerunner

In a pinch, I find that ample toilet sawdust can be home manufactured and gathered by putting a tarp down in front of the firewood pile and chainsawing big blocks and logs into little blocks and logs. We fill a 55 gallon drum with a tank full of gas.....and have lots of ready-to-burn wood as a byproduct.


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## Forerunner

Here are a couple older pictures showing my Bearcatâ¢ feed mill handling full sized cow bones with ease.....and a couple buckets of resultant bone meal.


















Here is a typical scene around here come time to spread finished product.










Here is a freshly spread field.....virgin, even......note the orangish clay beneath.










A beautiful crop of early alfalfa.....happily green before the trees leaf out.
Must be the soil beneath it.....










Here is father and son planting the west sweet corn patch last spring.
The model A and the planter both burned in the fire.
The patch of dirt in the pic is really coming around from it's original clay and timber soil composition.










......and, last but not least, a shot of what goes on just below the surface around here......


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## Forerunner

Another typical sight around here..... a gift from generous neighbors.










Father and son, at it again during a rather productive day.


























I can send Caleb, 13, to the sale barn or the Amish sawmill or the horse boarding/training facility-- all under ten miles away-- with two wagons behind him and he brings them back full, trouble free. That frees me up to do other projects like maintenance or building/repairing dump trailers....

I dearly love the look and fragrance of a hot, steaming pile of rotting organic matter. 










Shoving up the new material is the high point of the day for me. 
The tidy piles make me sleep better at night.










During dry weather, I irrigate the piles with pond water.
In the event I am called out to draw up some liquid manure spill with the "honey wagon", I use the super hot manure tea to further inoculate the piles with nitrogen and bacteria.


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## ChristieAcres

Just seeing a few of your threads awakened the composting monster within... The work has begun, but alas, I lack the heavy equipment. It must begin, the way it shall, me laboring with a shovel, carrying buckets, pulling my garden wagon, and dreaming of that day... When I can have even one large pile! Until then, I will satisfy my desire towards that end, with the smaller victories I can achieve. My little experiment under the rabbit hutches seems to be going well, as the manure piles are heating up, and I am regularly dumping on top of them, layering them, as the bunnies "commune" with them:hobbyhors 

I am determined to get my DH, rather DRAG my DH to the computer tomorrow to see your pictures. Maybe, it will awaken something in him? Something to do with compost...building me something to help make more...?! We ARE retiring his old Ford F250 from a work-truck for business to strictly a home property work-rig. Currently, it has a boom crane, industrial wench, and an interesting solid steel bumper he welded onto it. He bent the frame, AGAIN. So, it is time to cut the frame in half and fix it, AGAIN. This is the kind of stuff he does. He DID say he was going to turn it into a tractor/skidder...:nanner:


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## Forerunner

I started out with a 3 quarter ton, a pitchfork and a scoop shovel. I built high wooden sides for the truck and a raised tail gate to match. I made it a goal to bring home 2-4 loads a week back then, and was gratified to see how fast my pile grew.
If your husband is a little heavy, front and center, or a little light in the shoulders, he could cancel his membership at the gym as soon as he gets bit by the compost bug.


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## Callieslamb

Well, I have the pitch fork. LOL!!! Forerunner - you take the cake...but I think your wife deserves some credit here too! 

I won't hold my breath waiting for any Dh around here to get hit by the composting bug...but I might hire a neighbor with a tractor to move and turn my pile.


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## blooba

Forerunner, those worms still looked kinda hungry. Have you though about contacting paper shredding companies for more material? I have found that staples decompose faster than the paper and thats usually the most those shredding companies allow. Sometimes you will run into some plastic in the paper though.

Anyone with some land and a frontloader even on their tractor should call up their local governments, ect. and see if they could start something like this. Might not have to be so extreme but even if they gave you a few dumptruck loads a year would be better than nothing. (Free Black Gold)


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## timfromohio

Forerunner - I'm not sure which is more inspiring, your composting efforts or the fact that the local municipal guys actually have common sense and are working with you. Awesome story.


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## fishhead

I'll bet that a few calls to the local landscapers would get a person started in composting on a large scale. It's amazing at how many people in this rural area feel the need to haul or burn their leaves.


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## Michael W. Smith

Forefunner - my hat is off to you!

I'm afraid if I would even mention something like this to my wife, she would quickly commit me to the closest phychiatric ward!!!!!!

In the fall, I bring home truckload upon truckload of bagged leaves. It gets two uses - the first is up against the side of our house for insulation during the winter - (we live in an old farmhouse, and this part was an old porch that was enclosed in. It just has a crawl space underneath it and in time, I'm like to rip off the "added on room" dig a cellar to it and replace it. But I digress . . . . .)

Then in the Spring, the bags of leaves are then dumped onto my pile - no where near the size of yours. But like I said, I'm "pushing it" just bringing home bags of leaves. 

I really don't know if there is any "converting" the wife!


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## Forerunner

Fishhead......EXACTLY !!!!

The resources are definitiely out there and only need be gathered into piles.......

Michael...... I have always had it in my mind that if my wife started balking at any particular of country life, I would pack her and a few belongings into a bed roll, throw it over the horse behind me and head for the deepest reaches of the Canadian Rockies for about a year. By that time the dynamics of the relationship would again be in perfect balance.


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## Pony

Nick read through this entire thread, and said two things:

1.) Forerunner has the best toys!

2.) Michael W Smith needs to get a new wife. 

LOL!


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## blooba

Forerunner said:


> and head for the deepest reaches of the Canadian Rockies for about a year. By that time the dynamics of the relationship would again be in perfect balance.


And your compost would be ready to spread...lol


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## Forerunner

I thoroughly enjoyed my manure spreader.
Back when I bought it, we were cleaning horse stalls for a neighbor and it barely fit in his barn. It was Deere's biggest, the 780, and it would haul and spread 8 tons with ease. 










Shortly after adding that piece of equipment to the fleet, I installed a heavy hitch on the back of it to pull another wagon behind, and began making regular trips to the sale barn and horse farms around to haul home the goods.
That spreader would convert half rotted hay bales, chunks of packed bedding, frozen material and wet, heavy nastiness into well mixed and aerated fluff as it deposited the material onto the piles.
It would also spread finished compost in the most uniform and granulated way.....
It looked much better before the fire.










But, alas, all was not lost. The bulldozer, a Case 550 "G", with rear tine hydraulic ripper, has long been my gardening tool of choice. It will spread the material, and, truth be known, my piles are big enough and I have them scattered enough that the dozer is an extremely efficient spreading tool.
I can move the material a hundred yards or more just as fast as I could ever load the stuff and spread it. I can level the material and rip it in 16 inches deep as I go. I've been known, upon finishing the spreading, to chain an eight foot disc on behind the dozer and finish various seedbeds to perfection.
Then, I can remove the disc and rip in my planting rows with the ripper shanks, which are set at 24 inches apart.
Those potato rows that Caleb is planting in, several illustrations back, were ripped in thus so, and a fine job it does.
So, when it came time to spread my first really massive pile, I was covered.










That pile was, as it turns out, strategically located right next to a two acre patch that was cleaned off and leveled a couple years ago. It had been a sand pocket covered with scrub. In about half a day or less, I had about 40 semi loads of finished, black rich deliciousness spread, leveled and ripped in.
All that was accomplished with one machine, instead of three.....


























As I've mentioned in other posts, I make it a goal to spread the material and have it ripped in within three hours, as per Ehrenfried Pfeiffer's recommendations. I generally take that several steps further and do my compost spreading and tilling on cooler, cloudy, even foggy days, and that early morning or later evening to minimize nitrogen loss and other detrimental effects that hot, sunny dryness can have on compost.

We've made it a habit, on spreading day, to have one or both of the loaders handy to be filled with all manner of sticks, bones, rocks and other foreign matter that comes in with the compost. My trash pickers are a diligent lot, and it doesn't take long for a dozen or so hands to really clean up a field.










The finished field is always a real joy to behold. I sleep really well the night after a major and successful spread.


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## ChristieAcres

Well done & am dreaming of the day I can behold such an awesome site on our property!



> I started out with a 3 quarter ton, a pitchfork and a scoop shovel. I built high wooden sides for the truck and a raised tail gate to match. I made it a goal to bring home 2-4 loads a week back then, and was gratified to see how fast my pile grew.
> If your husband is a little heavy, front and center, or a little light in the shoulders, he could cancel his membership at the gym as soon as he gets bit by the compost bug.


Little me? I am starting out with a garden wagon:hobbyhors , a shovel, a pitchfork, buckets, and using recycled larger cottage cheese containers (for collecting compost material indoors). I have a few different compost piles. DH just dumps in what is collected indoors, while I am the only one to add anything else to it. My current assistants are (11) mini rabbits (1 Mini Lop, and 10 Mini Rex's). None of us are "light in the shoulders, although the rabbits could stand to lose a little weight..." Composting may have to be "my baby" until I can get DH on board. On converting spouses? Appreciation around here goes a long ways.

On DH? That man is already a rock. It is all I can get him to do to quit after 12 hours, and he'd work 7 days/week if I let him. He is an industrial machinist/welder (seems most of what he works on is HEAVY). The guy lifts constantly, and says, "If men really worked, they wouldn't need a gym." Of course, he isn't referring to those who can't or who have physical disabilities. It is 6pm and he is only quitting due to the impending darkness (was out cutting apart a large boat trailer). He is collecting metal scrap to make a full load---goes to salvage with his own scrap, too. He loads most of that by hand after cutting it into manageable sizes. I think compost would be easier compared to that, yikes!

I am wondering how I can possibly make composting together sound romantic...


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## nc_mtn

Forerunner said:


> We've made it a habit, on spreading day, to have one or both of the loaders handy to be filled with all manner of sticks, bones, rocks and other foreign matter that comes in with the compost. My trash pickers are a diligent lot, and it doesn't take long for a dozen or so hands to really clean up a field.




Since the rest of us are dreamin' and you don't have enough toys :thumb:
You need one of these: http://www.hud-son.com/Hud-Son_Screeners.htm


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## Forerunner

LoriChristie,

Your husband sounds very much like me, about 14 years ago.

I, too, worked dawn til dusk, and beyond, both ways, all my life.
I even made the greatest portion of my living in the salvage metal business.
Your husband might get some good out of some articles I've written on that topic. 
Angie has them listed in a sticky in the survival forum, along with my compost writings.

In very late 1996, the entity most despised to me above all others on this planet came to visit my farm and was the impetus in my life for many, many, many changes.
Career was set aside for three years while I poured over legal works and the history of American jurisprudence, and attended court hearings, drawing up and filing my own extensive paperwork in a fight that I believed was for my life and my family's immediate and permanent security. With what was unmistakably Divine guidance, I and my family came through that, but not without being deepened, broadened, awakened....

Wendy and I had already experienced the dream adventure romance previous to being married in 1990. We had already experienced trials that tempered that and only served to bring us closer. We had already had three children at home, and followed with two more after.

In 2002, on a very hot July morning, our third son drowned in the pond.
He was our most active and had been involved in many adventures and a few close calls before then. He was learning to swim, and was doing well, and I know what he did.
He slipped away in an odd moment of opportunity and jumped straight in that water because he was certain that he could. But, it was his time, and his confidence was only an answer to a much deeper and, to us, gut wrenching call.

Wendy and I were always close, but that event served to cement us wherever there may have been a loose end. We looked into each other's eyes even more often, with even deeper understanding and appreciation. We spoke in hushed tones of our mutual dread of anything that might separate one of us from the other...... the fear of being separated by death.

Career lost all importance other than to meet the necessities. I was home, and within earshot of her more than ever. 
The gardens flourished under our combined and focused effort.
Tasks that used to be burdensome and draw hard on my patience became appreciated opportunities to serve and honor her, and guide the children.
The bond that had always been, now frequently broke the rules and our love ventured far and brazen into the deepest recesses of paradise. 
I always knew that she saw more clearly than I.
I always knew that my life's challenge was to keep up with and honor her goodness with my own sacrifice and servanthood.
But, still I could not see.
Very few men do.

She passed away, like a thunderbolt from the bluest, most peaceful sky, completely without warning, one early February mid-day.

That night following, my appreciation for her, and for her passions, was complete.

The following years have served only to deepen, broaden and sharpen that appreciation.
I see clearly every selfish moment in which I failed her.
I see clearly every incident in which I put my own version of priority above hers.
I see every moment that could have, and should have, been spent with her.....
easing her burdens... honoring her with my strength, attention and motivation.
I see clearly what is all but impossible to share with other men who have not opened their eyes.
I speak now, a very different language......one of pain, of understanding, of humility.
Deep, wise, and rare is the man who can hear my voice, who can look at his wife the way I learned to, simply by my inadequate ramblings.
If I could take the pain of loss for every man, that he need never be separated from "her".....if I could instill the appreciation in every man without his having to endure what I have endured..... I would do it, cost me what it may.

But, like the butterfly working it's own way out of the cocoon, I fear that is a path that every man is required to trod in his own time, in his own way, and at his own grave peril.


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## Jerngen

You have such a way with words...... I'm sorry for your losses.


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## ChristieAcres

Forerunner, my heart goes out to you in your losses, both of your beloved son and wife, and I so appreciate your beautifully written response. It is so rare to experience so much, yet grow in the ways you have. What comes from ashes, need not be more ashes. What will result may be far more reaching than you know, but yet may imagine. Many will read what you wrote and it is my hope they are moved, as you have been moved, and life changes for them. 

My DH and I have survived a great deal before we met (I will PM you tomorrow), and have been married only six years. I am 46 and he is 53. We have 5 adult children (he w/3 sons, and I w/a son & daughter). None of them live with us. His sons live in WA, only a few hours away. My Rob is in Austin TX, while Andrea' is in FL (touring with a few bands). 

I read your post earlier and contemplated. Was he truly further away by choice or absent working so hard bereft of my invitation? A gentle tap on the shoulder, a smile, and "would you like to take a walk?" That will stop Len in a heartbeat. To do with me, is different than to do by himself. Not always is the goal clear to him as an invitation appears to be. He got up early this morning, so he could make me breakfast. There sat my favorite mug next to a fancy creamer (which he put 1/2 & 1/2 in for me- this isn't something I often use). His goal was to spend time with me, before I left for work (temporarily working full time away from home & for another month). In the evening, the television doesn't beckon to him. He patiently reads, waiting for me to finish what I am doing, waiting for my time. His labors of love are evident here and to all who come here. 

The salvage work Len is doing is to provide enough extra income to make up for our shortfall this month. My work is for the same reason. In March, this will change. Len does what he needs to when business slows.

While our website shows you some of his work, our homestead reflects the rest (see Shop Talk- wood stove radiator post, Gardening posts, etc...) I may not have my composting "buddy" yet, but I'll let you know when I do. Out of the blue, after dinner, he began asking me questions about my composting efforts. Len wanted to understand why I was composting under the bunny hutches (with all the added ingredients, no issue with fumes for concerned others). The next item on our list is my greenhouse. I don't think Len would have waited to complete this project had he understood fully why I wanted it done. Andrea', DD, gave me a 10 X 8 greenhouse for Mother's Day in 2009... He misunderstood and was a bit hurt. Len built me a garden cabin and couldn't figure out why I would need or want both. So, my greenhouse project kept being pushed down the list of priorities. Next week, it has moved to the top of the list (he now understands its use more fully).

I will read your other posts, thank you.


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## Pony

Thanks, Forerunner. 

I am sorry for your tragic losses, and I am impressed and inspired by the way you handled them. Because you shared so much, I feel a renewed focus and enthusiasm to make this place work.

Thank you so very much.


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## Square Peg

Wow. This is a great thread. I have learned a lot and not just about composting. Thank you.


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## tamilee

Forerunner said:


> I've put this off long enough.
> 
> It snowed....... again.:grumble:
> 
> My work outside is buried.
> The timing of the Michigan meeting and the need for incentive
> inspires me, so, here goes......
> 
> 
> I have long been an extremist, taking normal activities to their absolute most ridiculous extreme for no other reason than to amuse myself with what can be done by one man if effort is applied...... and, composting is no exception.
> I had no long-term ambitions when I started my first pile in the late 90s, (after a few years dormancy since my youth) other than to make fertile soil to feed my family. Well, as usual, opportunities have since come knocking and I've turned none of them away. Things got out of hand....
> 
> 
> The focus of this thread is going to be on sources of material and how one man can make extensive use of what the world throws away.
> Obviously, if this catches on, such waste material will regain its long lost sense of value, and I say it can't happen soon enough.
> Between the yard waste, farm waste, kitchen/restaurant waste, sale barns, food processing plants, sawmills, animal shelters, barber shops, stone cutting facilities, municipal sewage disposal, etc. there is ample, mineral and nutrient-rich material being wasted to at least keep ME up nights...
> 
> Following will be a rather haphazard narration, illustrated, of how I've made use of what is readily available. I have tried to get others interested, and they are, but they like to watch me, rather than take up the pitchfork, themselves. The day will come, I am sure, but until then, I gather.....
> 
> Feel free to comment. I'm going to make installments to this thread over the course of the next week or so.


Now you are talking on one of my favorite subject... BIOMASS. In many countries biomass (compost pile) is used for home heating and domestic water heating. Peace Corp workers who wanted a hot shower, loop water hoses in a compost pile and had hot showers. You could make a large bin, line it with plastic and have a drain hole. Then loop pex inside, attach to incoming cold water, attach end to outgoing pipes from the bin to the house (insulate the pipe going to the house ) cover the top with plastic and put a lid on = hot water. Biomass can be use for home heating. You could build a large bin, insulate it have a small vent and place a grid of pvc pipes in side , bundle them in a larger pipe , add foam insulation and attach to a fan in the duct work= home heating. Biomass is the way to go!!!:sing:


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## MOgal

What a wonderful thread, informative, uplifting, challenging and all on so many levels.


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## Forerunner

Wendy and I shared a common desire....I won't even call it a dream-- she and I tended to live our dreams, and that's not really dreaming-- to turn this place into an Eden.
We had come a long way already, and still I thought I had other priorities than to devote myself to it 100%. That did change, overnight.

Come that following late March, a very good friend of the family wanted to do something to help. This man has 5 sons and they refurbish burned, wrecked and wore out Case equipment to sell, as well as part out.
I was in the middle of a decade-long landscaping project, phasing out a sand pit into tillable ground. My little dozer does great, but Butch had a few larger models sitting around, and let me use a bigger mid-sized for two months, on and off. That was an experience. We had ravines here, and large root balls from a small logging operation that I had undertaken previously, and several thousand tons of earth to move.
I ran that machine, in tears most of the time, with a passion.
The land began to take real shape and major changes that we had talked about facilitating over decades took mere days.

Below I have a set of pics describing one small piece of those changes, where I knocked off an odd hump of clay and opened the area up for horticulture. Ignore the date stamps. The earlier pics here were taken 2007, the latter 2008 and 9.

The black strip is where I dug in 6 feet deep, 2 feet wide and 80 yards long with the backhoe. I filled the trench with finished compost and planted grapes.










Here a couple shots after things had settled for the winter, new grape stock was planted, and a few landscape boulders that I had turned up in the bulldozing effort were installed.


















A year old grape transplant, freshly relocated to it's new home.
Every year I set my grape trimmings in an out of the way row to root in and thereby have a continuous supply of grape stock to transplant wherever I have a place ready. I love grapes, and could literally live on grape juice.
I do make wine, as well.










Here I'm spreading some compost, a couple rows over from the original vineyard strip. I dug in another long row of deep compost and planted another variety of grape in that strip. That is why the clover is so lush there.... Beyond you can see where I started ten peach trees, each one set in about a pickup load of compost and the hole adorned with all manner of mineral sources such as kelp, homemade bone meal, a little wood ash, etc.
The grapes and the peaches, especially the peaches, have taken off like greenery rockets. Even I was surprised at how fast they're growing.
In the pic, I'm spreading material between the peaches and the road where we will be planting garlic this year. I'm making use of the space between the rows as the grapes and peaches mature. I expect the day will come when there will be a bit too much shade to grow anything productively, but I look forward to some well manicured sod when that time comes.










Here is a shot from the east end. The original grape row can be seen to the far right....along with the guest cabin.
The second row is marked by the posts nearer the center.
We planted garlic between the second grape row and the peaches.

I'm still in process of spreading compost between the permaculture rows.
But the increasing fertility compared to the original clay is evident.










Here is a good shot of the original arbor, taken last summer. 
Not bad for two and a half years old.










Finally, fruits for the effort.


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## blooba

If I wasn't jealous enough at the compost piles, I sure am now. This is proof you can make any clay/sand ridden piece of land into a homesteaders' Disneyland with enough willpower.


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## greif

what grape varities are you growingsince most don't like clay

I have a slightly smaller pile, only a bout 100 yardsm started with about 1000 yards of leaves and things


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## Forerunner

nc_mtn said:


> Since the rest of us are dreamin' and you don't have enough toys :thumb:
> You need one of these: http://www.hud-son.com/Hud-Son_Screeners.htm


My toys do come by a lot of sweat and extensive overtime.....

I have long seen the value of, not a screening device, but a full blown 4-500 horse industrial grade tub grinder. There are brush piles, pallet piles, slab piles, tree tops, bark piles, piles of partially rotted hay and straw, restaurant and food processing waste, not to mention tons and tons of nitrogen-rich materials that need be blended with the above.....
A tub grinder would reduce everything to slivers and dust, remove the steel, and mix all ingredients to a quick-heating, short-cycle decomposing dream.

There is a chapter in Rodale's Complete Book of Composting that addresses Ehrenfried Pfeiffer's municipal recycling/composting efforts in the 40s and 50s that just makes me groan with envy.

That said, I find that patience produces just as quality a finished product.....just without the diesel roar and accompanying glamor.

I was born to be a poor, slow, labor-intensive composter.


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## Forerunner

greif said:


> what grape varieties are you growing since most don't like clay
> 
> I have a slightly smaller pile, only about 100 yards started with about 1000 yards of leaves and things


My first row is Concords.
The second is an old red variety that I know not the proper name for. They came from Grandpa's patch of old.
Neither really has to contend with much clay, being set in six feet of compost.
I figure the grape roots and the worms will blend the material just about as quickly as it needs be for the grape roots to venture out a little further.
They certainly aren't showing signs of stress.


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## blooba

Forerunner said:


> , but a full blown 4-500 horse industrial grade tub grinder.


LOL... You don't play around. Does the local government have one you could use for a few days since u are getting rid of their "waste"?


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## Forerunner

*fights back tears.......head hung......kicks toe in dirt*

No tub grinder. They burn the brush that comes in. :sob:


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## mudburn

Forerunner, I have read with great appreciation your posts on composting and gardening. You are doing great work and are an inspiration!

I have a question. You've mentioned that you follow Dr. Ehrenfried Pfeiffer's recommendation to work the compost into the soil within three hours of application. What would be the procedure for spreading compost on a hay field where working it in would not be appropriate?

I have several tons of deep bedding accumulating in my barn which I plan on letting a couple pigs aerate this spring, after which I'll spread most of it on one of my hay fields (about 4 acres of former tobacco field) which is in great need of amendment. Eventually, I would like to seed the field in alfalfa, but I don't see that happening this year or next and would like to enrich it as much as possible.

I am planning on developing and expanding my composting endeavors here on our South Central Kentucky farm, influenced greatly by your example. So, I thank you!

mudburn


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## TheMrs

Square Peg said:


> Wow. This is a great thread. I have learned a lot and not just about composting. Thank you.


Exactly what I was thinking. Thank you so much Forerunner.


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## Forerunner

Given my increasingly humble lot in life..... I thank all of you for the opportunity to share what I have learned and my passion for the earth. Knowing that I have positively influenced others by sharing my example works wonders on my scarred soul.

Mudburn...... make sure that compost is rotted down to black.
The pigs should do right in that regard.
Spread the material by conventional means just before a time when you know it's going to rain..... or snow. If you have to do it in sections, over a few weeks, don't sweat it.
Better by far to let the rain carry those nutrients in a little at a time than to let the sun cook the stuff to 50% of it's worth, or less. 
Perfection would be to spread on a cool, cloudy afternoon just before a slow, all night rain..... and that right after you take off a crop. That way the new growth will rapidly shade the compost, giving the worms and microbes a little more privacy to do their work, and keep the sun off. I spread my hay ground about an inch thick with really mature compost, when I do spread without tilling.


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## Pony

Inspired by your posts (and our doe's upcoming kidding), we decided to clean out the goat stable yesterday.

One HUMONGOUS pile of compostable goodness sitting by the fence outside the goat yard. Can't move it until the snow melts enough to get my wheel barrow through to the garden.

Over a foot of bedding et al in that stall makes for a LOT of compost food.


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## Forerunner

Stop it, already.

Yer making my mouth water.


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## Pony

Forerunner said:


> Stop it, already.
> 
> Yer making my mouth water.


<snort> Well, it certainly has my eyes watering.

That stuff is PUNGENT. Nearly competition for the CAFO down the road...


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## sirquack

Your words have made me realize how I have let most of my life slip by with little meaning. 
Thank you sir for helping me realize that life is not without sacrifice, but to sacrifice for the right reasons is how to live life. 
My new life begins today.


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## CherieOH

Wow. If I had to vote for the best thread ever, this would be it, hands down. Forerunner, you should write a book. You have a real flair for words and much to say that others need to hear. Have you thought of selling your compost? Or of holding classes on composting? People could learn a lot from you, and not just about composting. My heart goes out to your for your losses.


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## Freya

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


*
Truly, utterly, deeply inspiring on all levels. *





:bow:


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## DianeWV

Your passion and work for composting is truly inspirational and admirable. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread as well. Well Done!


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## Forerunner

The foregoing having been largely a history, bringing my story to a vague point in time, I have focused, up until now, on my experiences along side of and in behalf of my first wife, Wendy.

The shock and wonder of having been required to "change horses" in the middle of my life's stream has presented me with many challenges, and it has yet to begin to wear off. The contrast between character, mannerism and focus in life of those two "horses"
(quite referring to the most basic of analogies) upon my first meeting each of them could be the subject of shock therapy seminars.
After Wendy passed, I was adamant that I'd never be with another woman.
As the impact of that event slowly began to lose it's crushing and detrimental force on my life, and I began to accept that I was going to be here for several more decades, I realized that I had too much to offer, both in myself and in my undertakings on this Earth, to justify walking alone. It was impressed upon me that I had taken a rather selfish tack, given the circumstances, and that I was being subtly prepared for another relationship. It was a hot day in August when, for whatever prompting at that time, I allowed myself the first step in that direction. I had put in a typical day, for me, and was ready to call it good. I took my routine swim to wash off the summer sweat and dirt, came inside and sat down to the computer, and for the first time in my life typed in a search for a dating site, of all things. Now to give proper perspective, I knew that my local reputation was likely to nix any possibility of making any connections here close by. I was simply regarded as too far off the beaten path, in every regard that mattered...... so I thought. Thus, my initial effort was just to put myself out there in cyber social settings. That was an education in itself. I rearranged young ladies paradigms on a regular basis for several months until I stumbled across Lori's profile, on November the 18th.
There was something in her face, the first time I saw her picture, that said "home" to me..... seriously.
Imagine, if you will, a woman who has spent her life trying hard not to make waves;
trying hard not to stick out in a crowd; trying hard not to draw attention to herself in any way; trying hard to keep her life simple, predictable, comfortable......even boring, by design and focus...... and then having a message from me pop into her inbox.
We are within two years in age-- and that is all we had in common, from an outside view, looking in....
She was living, eight stories up, in a high rise apartment complex in downtown Rockford, Illinois. We might as well have come from different planets.
But, once the bug had bitten us both, and our phone conversations became routine, we found common ground in areas that would not have been evident on any survey, dating compatibility test or public opinion poll.
I was fascinated as I watched it all unfold. 
She was shy, and, I dare say terrified of the day we would finally meet.
To make a very long story short, that day came exactly one week shy of two years after our first contact. The country boy (putting it mildly) came to the city for a week.
We both knew rather immediately that there was no reason to delay.
She came home with me for several weeks following that first,"to check out the farm", you know. We exchanged vows upon our return to Rockford, and have not been far out of each others sight, since.

Now, Wendy bought that digital camera, and was mighty pleased with it, but, what with raising children and doing a fantastic job of keeping up with my rigorous homesteader scheduling, she had little time to accompany me on my many and varied ventures around the country for the purpose of making a record.
The kids being three quarters grown and quite self sufficient, and my having relaxed my stringent expectations of all parties here involved (just a little, anyway) has made clear the way for Lori to express herself in the way she does best, as many here already know, via taking pictures and writing about her experiences.
Given the _drasticity_ of her apparently long-awaited change in life, she has had plenty to write about, and she obviously has a gift for expression and for laying events out there, from the heart.
All that I can take credit for is providing her with an opportunity never before realized. As challenges present themselves, she has met them and we are discovering all sorts of skills that I believe she has always possessed, lying just below the surface.
Her first bread baking experience (during a time when Rachel was visiting friends out of state, so there'd be room for shameless failure, she told me)
was with _soft_ wheat, of all things, and it turned out like hard wheat bread is _supposed_ to turn out. :bouncy:
Some of you might recognize the phenomenon.
Her soups are to die for, and she cooks the meanest venison steak you ever had.....after swearing all her life that she'd never eat the stuff.
(she has uncles and BILs that hunt)
Well, enough of domestics, for now........

The last year has been an odd one for moisture content.
We were run out of our river bottom maple operation three times last late winter/early spring by flood waters, the last episode of which Lori wrote about and extensively illustrated via photograph in the earlier portions of her now rather notorious blog.

http://frmerswife.blogspot.com/search?q=flood+buckets+canoe

The flooding tendency carried right on through the year, and I made some use of the worst one. The pictures below are of what was _Illinois State Route 9_ just a day or two previous. Here it's just part of the lake that shows up about once every ten or twelve years, by average. This event was the first witnessed by my three sons and daughter, adventurers all, and they made no effort to hide their fascination with the opportunity. The boys ran right out and started trying to catch the fish that were swimming across. 



















Now I've been around that river all my life, and swam in the worst flood waters that it can produce, so I wasn't at all concerned about my sons running around out there, knowing the placidity of the water just on the downstream side of the road.
There was quite a gathering of other folks milling around behind the camera lady, however, so I cautioned them not to make too bold a showing of it.
Just a scant few minutes later, a seemingly high ranking DOT official pulled up in a really nice, extended cab pickup truck.
As other bystanders retreated dutifully, he took in the immediate situation, and I commend the man for the tact that he displayed as he warned me about the dangers of flood water, particularly as those dangers might pertain to a certain crew of boys out trying to catch fish in it.....
I explained briefly my experience and lack of concern, but followed by acknowledging his responsibility and position, and called the boys in.
I had seen what I needed to see anyway, and it was time to get home and get the day started.
I understand that it wasn't long after that the local authorities forbade anyone to drive beyond the road closed sign a mile back at the top of the hill.

Knowing well how natural events would play out, Caleb and I set out early the next morning, before typical daily activity was evident. Saturated corn stalks don't take long to reek to the high heavens due to their high bacteria content..... hmmmm.
Spoon River bottom at Route 9 is only a mile northwest of me if I swim the river and walk across the fields and levees. It's only three miles by tractor. That's a pretty close source of raw ingredients for compost, so....




























The initial effort having been quite to my satisfaction, and the assurance that there would be multiple semiloads of material to be had, I took the first load home and we had breakfast. After that, Caleb did the hauling and I spent the day pulling flood debris off the shoulders and into the center of the road where I could access it with the loader, and loading Caleb up as he made the rounds.


----------



## Forerunner

Conditions were good, the water having receded some overnight, and Caleb was taking about a half hour to 45 minutes each round, giving me plenty of time to do a thorough job cleaning off the road sides and shoulders as I progressed west. Flood water was still pouring over the center third portion of the road, so we certainly had the place to ourselves.
It was well into the morning before I began to see the occasional deputy patrol pulling in behind the road closed sign at the bridge. That made Lori a little nervous, as she was riding with me during the first part of the day.
She was new to this business of hanging around with a man of action, and I had simply pulled up to those signs and moved them off to the sides a bit so we could get through easily for the day. 
The deputies never ventured out to where I was, nor did they stop Caleb during any of his travel back and forth to the farm. The locals know me, and they know the boys. There is much to be said for maintaining a _positive_ high profile in the community.
Of course, I was also seeing to it that I left the road in such a manner that it would be 100% serviceable upon my completion of the task at hand.
I wanted the state/community to benefit from the day's activities every but as much as my compost piles.










As I progressed west, approaches to the fields below became usable and Caleb could begin to bring the wagons all the way out to me for the simple fact that he could now turn around.










Now, though the locals knew me, it was only a matter of time before DOT did show up to see who was cleaning up their flooded highway all out of the blue....
The first truck that came had a crew of three, younger fellows and pretty good-natured. I asked them about a few of their preferences concerning the cleanup effort. They didn't know what to make of my intentions, and preferred not to make any decisions given their respective pay scales (so they said) but they did let me know, in terms quite unthreatening, that the boss was on his way.










Imagine my delight in having the opportunity to share some of the finer points of composting with the man who kindly and tactfully encouraged me to call in my boys from their fishing efforts the day before. Of course, by this time, Lori was looking for a place to go hide, but she stayed the course and recorded the scene. 










The man was noticeably moved by both the brassiness and the quality of the effort. He asked me if I thought I'd finish with the portion of road that was open by the end of the day, and I assured him that I would. Then I asked him if he needed a place to go with the remainder of the flood debris, mostly
small to mid-sized trees--complete with washed out root balls--and he evidenced a keen interest. I explained the directions to the farm, here, and gave him my phone number. He was appreciative, and left with a simple, "be careful out here", and the next morning we got a call. They ended up bringing us a couple dozen tandem loads of brush and trees. Some of it was clean enough ash that we cut it up for firewood. The rest just became fill where I plan to put an orchard in a few years.



















The corn stalks blended well with the rest of my materials, and what few pieces of driftwood that were mixed with them were either already punky enough to rot or were picked out and used for BTUs elsewhere.

The lesson being, of course, that there is seldom a shortage of composting materials once we fight our way out of that pesky box and start thinking for ourselves.


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## countrysunshine

Tim, I would venture to say that Lori is not the only one in the family with a talent for story telling.

I do enjoy reading your posts and I enjoy Lori's blog, too. 

Life is certainly an adventure for the two of you.


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## Forerunner

Thank you, Countrysunshine.

I didn't realize my story last night was posted so close to the end of page three.
I wonder if I'd get in trouble for re-posting it up here to page four....


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## Forerunner

The foregoing having been largely a history, bringing my story to a vague point in time, I have focused, up until now, on my experiences along side of and in behalf of my first wife, Wendy.

The shock and wonder of having been required to "change horses" in the middle of my life's stream has presented me with many challenges, and it has yet to begin to wear off. The contrast between character, mannerism and focus in life of those two "horses"
(quite referring to the most basic of analogies) upon my first meeting each of them could be the subject of shock therapy seminars.
After Wendy passed, I was adamant that I'd never be with another woman.
As the impact of that event slowly began to lose it's crushing and detrimental force on my life, and I began to accept that I was going to be here for several more decades, I realized that I had too much to offer, both in myself and in my undertakings on this Earth, to justify walking alone. It was impressed upon me that I had taken a rather selfish tack, given the circumstances, and that I was being subtly prepared for another relationship. It was a hot day in August when, for whatever prompting at that time, I allowed myself the first step in that direction. I had put in a typical day, for me, and was ready to call it good. I took my routine swim to wash off the summer sweat and dirt, came inside and sat down to the computer, and for the first time in my life typed in a search for a dating site, of all things. Now to give proper perspective, I knew that my local reputation was likely to nix any possibility of making any connections here close by. I was simply regarded as too far off the beaten path, in every regard that mattered...... so I thought. Thus, my initial effort was just to put myself out there in cyber social settings. That was an education in itself. I rearranged young ladies paradigms on a regular basis for several months until I stumbled across Lori's profile, on November the 18th.
There was something in her face, the first time I saw her picture, that said "home" to me..... seriously.
Imagine, if you will, a woman who has spent her life trying hard not to make waves;
trying hard not to stick out in a crowd; trying hard not to draw attention to herself in any way; trying hard to keep her life simple, predictable, comfortable......even boring, by design and focus...... and then having a message from me pop into her inbox.
We are within two years in age-- and that is all we had in common, from an outside view, looking in....
She was living, eight stories up, in a high rise apartment complex in downtown Rockford, Illinois. We might as well have come from different planets.
But, once the bug had bitten us both, and our phone conversations became routine, we found common ground in areas that would not have been evident on any survey, dating compatibility test or public opinion poll.
I was fascinated as I watched it all unfold. 
She was shy, and, I dare say terrified of the day we would finally meet.
To make a very long story short, that day came exactly one week shy of two years after our first contact. The country boy (putting it mildly) came to the city for a week.
We both knew rather immediately that there was no reason to delay.
She came home with me for several weeks following that first,"to check out the farm", you know. We exchanged vows upon our return to Rockford, and have not been far out of each others sight, since.

Now, Wendy bought that digital camera, and was mighty pleased with it, but, what with raising children and doing a fantastic job of keeping up with my rigorous homesteader scheduling, she had little time to accompany me on my many and varied ventures around the country for the purpose of making a record.
The kids being three quarters grown and quite self sufficient, and my having relaxed my stringent expectations of all parties here involved (just a little, anyway) has made clear the way for Lori to express herself in the way she does best, as many here already know, via taking pictures and writing about her experiences.
Given the _drasticity_ of her apparently long-awaited change in life, she has had plenty to write about, and she obviously has a gift for expression and for laying events out there, from the heart.
All that I can take credit for is providing her with an opportunity never before realized. As challenges present themselves, she has met them and we are discovering all sorts of skills that I believe she has always possessed, lying just below the surface.
Her first bread baking experience (during a time when Rachel was visiting friends out of state, so there'd be room for shameless failure, she told me)
was with _soft_ wheat, of all things, and it turned out like hard wheat bread is _supposed_ to turn out. :bouncy:
Some of you might recognize the phenomenon.
Her soups are to die for, and she cooks the meanest venison steak you ever had.....after swearing all her life that she'd never eat the stuff.
(she has uncles and BILs that hunt)
Well, enough of domestics, for now........

The last year has been an odd one for moisture content.
We were run out of our river bottom maple operation three times last late winter/early spring by flood waters, the last episode of which Lori wrote about and extensively illustrated via photograph in the earlier portions of her now rather notorious blog.

http://frmerswife.blogspot.com/search?q=flood+buckets+canoe

The flooding tendency carried right on through the year, and I made some use of the worst one. The pictures below are of what was _Illinois State Route 9_ just a day or two previous. Here it's just part of the lake that shows up about once every ten or twelve years, by average. This event was the first witnessed by my three sons and daughter, adventurers all, and they made no effort to hide their fascination with the opportunity. The boys ran right out and started trying to catch the fish that were swimming across. 



















Now I've been around that river all my life, and swam in the worst flood waters that it can produce, so I wasn't at all concerned about my sons running around out there, knowing the placidity of the water just on the downstream side of the road.
There was quite a gathering of other folks milling around behind the camera lady, however, so I cautioned them not to make too bold a showing of it.
Just a scant few minutes later, a seemingly high ranking DOT official pulled up in a really nice, extended cab pickup truck.
As other bystanders retreated dutifully, he took in the immediate situation, and I commend the man for the tact that he displayed as he warned me about the dangers of flood water, particularly as those dangers might pertain to a certain crew of boys out trying to catch fish in it.....
I explained briefly my experience and lack of concern, but followed by acknowledging his responsibility and position, and called the boys in.
I had seen what I needed to see anyway, and it was time to get home and get the day started.
I understand that it wasn't long after that the local authorities forbade anyone to drive beyond the road closed sign a mile back at the top of the hill.

Knowing well how natural events would play out, Caleb and I set out early the next morning, before typical daily activity was evident. Saturated corn stalks don't take long to reek to the high heavens due to their high bacteria content..... hmmmm.
Spoon River bottom at Route 9 is only a mile northwest of me if I swim the river and walk across the fields and levees. It's only three miles by tractor. That's a pretty close source of raw ingredients for compost, so....




























The initial effort having been quite to my satisfaction, and the assurance that there would be multiple semiloads of material to be had, I took the first load home and we had breakfast. After that, Caleb did the hauling and I spent the day pulling flood debris off the shoulders and into the center of the road where I could access it with the loader, and loading Caleb up as he made the rounds.


----------



## Forerunner

Conditions were good, the water having receded some overnight, and Caleb was taking about a half hour to 45 minutes each round, giving me plenty of time to do a thorough job cleaning off the road sides and shoulders as I progressed west. Flood water was still pouring over the center third portion of the road, so we certainly had the place to ourselves.
It was well into the morning before I began to see the occasional deputy patrol pulling in behind the road closed sign at the bridge. That made Lori a little nervous, as she was riding with me during the first part of the day.
She was new to this business of hanging around with a man of action, and I had simply pulled up to those signs and moved them off to the sides a bit so we could get through easily for the day. 
The deputies never ventured out to where I was, nor did they stop Caleb during any of his travel back and forth to the farm. The locals know me, and they know the boys. There is much to be said for maintaining a _positive_ high profile in the community.
Of course, I was also seeing to it that I left the road in such a manner that it would be 100% serviceable upon my completion of the task at hand.
I wanted the state/community to benefit from the day's activities every but as much as my compost piles.










As I progressed west, approaches to the fields below became usable and Caleb could begin to bring the wagons all the way out to me for the simple fact that he could now turn around.










Now, though the locals knew me, it was only a matter of time before DOT did show up to see who was cleaning up their flooded highway all out of the blue....
The first truck that came had a crew of three, younger fellows and pretty good-natured. I asked them about a few of their preferences concerning the cleanup effort. They didn't know what to make of my intentions, and preferred not to make any decisions given their respective pay scales (so they said) but they did let me know, in terms quite unthreatening, that the boss was on his way.










Imagine my delight in having the opportunity to share some of the finer points of composting with the man who kindly and tactfully encouraged me to call in my boys from their fishing efforts the day before. Of course, by this time, Lori was looking for a place to go hide, but she stayed the course and recorded the scene. 










The man was noticeably moved by both the brassiness and the quality of the effort. He asked me if I thought I'd finish with the portion of road that was open by the end of the day, and I assured him that I would. Then I asked him if he needed a place to go with the remainder of the flood debris, mostly
small to mid-sized trees--complete with washed out root balls--and he evidenced a keen interest. I explained the directions to the farm, here, and gave him my phone number. He was appreciative, and left with a simple, "be careful out here", and the next morning we got a call. They ended up bringing us a couple dozen tandem loads of brush and trees. Some of it was clean enough ash that we cut it up for firewood. The rest just became fill where I plan to put an orchard in a few years.



















The corn stalks blended well with the rest of my materials, and what few pieces of driftwood that were mixed with them were either already punky enough to rot or were picked out and used for BTUs elsewhere.

The lesson being, of course, that there is seldom a shortage of composting materials once we fight our way out of that pesky box and start thinking for ourselves.


----------



## mudburn

Thanks for replying to my question earlier. I really appreciate it.

I've enjoyed this thread very much. The personal details you share of your life/family add to the overall lessons you're teaching. What you are doing is an expression of who you are. Thanks for sharing.

That's great that you were able to utilize what would have otherwise been just wasted from the flood. You are a man with vision.

mudburn


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## insocal

I love this thread. I'm composting vicariously.

Maybe I should get that apartment-sized vermicomposting box I saw the other day.......


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## katy

One question, with the flood debris, it sounds as tho you simply stacked it at the farm where there was room or a need. At what point do you rearrange it to get the 25 to 1 ratio C to N ? And what are you using for the N ?

I see the value in composting and hope to be able to enlarge what I'm doing. It is my desire to use grass clippings on the garden to minimize or eliminate weeding. Only mildly related, I have a small amount of wheat with some kind of bugs in it, is it fit to plant or would that simply complicate matters ?

I have read all of your postings on composting, some twice, and really appreciate your time and effort. Good job, thanks. 


katy


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## fordson major

fore runner, another source of compost that we use is roadside grass cuttings (not so much now that we are the city and such labour saving is unknown too them!) have a flail chopper and forage wagon that we use too geen chop feed for the sheep and to keep the grass down on our side road! (this we use for compost pretty much)


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## Forerunner

Mudburn..... you are most welcome. Feel free to contact me anytime.
I'd love to see and hear about what you've got going on down there.
I somewhat envy your Kentucky locale. They have an awesome growing season.



insocal said:


> I love this thread. I'm composting vicariously.
> 
> Maybe I should get that apartment-sized vermicomposting box I saw the other day.......


A large cooler works well, and may be a lot cheaper. I have one just outside my bedroom door for the odd scrap that I need to make better use of.
I think I can actually hear them cheering when I bring them presents.


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## Forerunner

katy said:


> One question, with the flood debris, it sounds as tho you simply stacked it at the farm where there was room or a need. At what point do you rearrange it to get the 25 to 1 ratio C to N ? And what are you using for the N ?
> 
> I see the value in composting and hope to be able to enlarge what I'm doing. It is my desire to use grass clippings on the garden to minimize or eliminate weeding. Only mildly related, I have a small amount of wheat with some kind of bugs in it, is it fit to plant or would that simply complicate matters ?
> katy


I started hauling in stalks previous to that flood, from the farmer's field below me that had received a lot of flood debris from an earlier event, and had a good pile established. They were wet, and the stalks that have floated on flood waters seem to carry a high concentration of bacteria, and, I dare say, a nearly sufficient amount of nitrogen. They break down quickly, stand alone. I do make regular trips to a sale barn that comes up with a semi load every couple weeks. They have been my most consistent supply of N, but that is changing as other opportunities begin to dwarf that source.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I like to keep a good supply of bland carbon around in the event that a glut of nitrogen comes in unexpected. The carbon also serves as the bed for the deceased livestock that comes in. You can't bury a dead animal in enough carbon, it seems.
Sawdust and wood chips are my preferred source of C, but straw, dry grass clippings, cardboard or dry leaves work almost as well.

I'd plant the wheat, or let the chickens have it. If it doesn't germinate, let the chickens have the rest, anyway. The only thing bugs generally hurt in seed grain is they like to eat the germ, which kills the seed. It takes a pretty bad infestation to wipe out everything.


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## Forerunner

ford major said:


> fore runner, another source of compost that we use is roadside grass cuttings (not so much now that we are the city and such labour saving is unknown too them!) have a flail chopper and forage wagon that we use too geen chop feed for the sheep and to keep the grass down on our side road! (this we use for compost pretty much)


I have long dreamed of ways to harvest the roadsides, both for compost and for cattle feed. Haylage chopper and wagon was what eventually came to mind, but by the time I was ready to make such investments, other sources presented themselves that weren't quite so energy-dependent.
I like the idea of keeping the neighborhood tidy while making use of the resource thereby gleaned. I've gone so far as to cut firewood of the roadside brush.....just because I wanted it to look better. What really gets people is when you leave the wood stacked in neat piles for whoever might come along in need. I spent the better parts of 2000-2002 doing that.


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## insocal

Forerunner said:


> I have long dreamed of ways to harvest the roadsides, both for compost and for cattle feed. Haylage chopper and wagon was what eventually came to mind, but by the time I was ready to make such investments, other sources presented themselves that weren't quite so energy-dependent.
> I like the idea of keeping the neighborhood tidy while making use of the resource thereby gleaned. I've gone so far as to cut firewood of the roadside brush.....just because I wanted it to look better. What really gets people is when you leave the wood stacked in neat piles for whoever might come along in need. I spent the better parts of 2000-2002 doing that.


Think of the good that could come of that if you made it a trend: harvesting roadside weeds for livestock feed instead of endlessly spraying toxic chemicals. Somebody needs to jump on this and promote it and find a way to capitalize on it. Don't counties PAY people to spray weed killer on the roadsides?? What is to stop them from paying someone to MOW instead??

Too bad I live in an apartment in the city and can't do this myself, because I would be sorely tempted.


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## mudburn

I've been inspired by Forerunner to become as extreme as I can in my composting efforts. I spent several hours today (about 5, actually) hauling 16 tons of mixed bedding and manure from the local stock yard, two tons at a time since that's all that my truck can handle in one load. There was more that I could have hauled, but I didn't. If I could haul more at one time, I'd have cleaned them out. They use a lot of sawdust in their bedding, and there was a bit of hay mixed in. It was quite hot in the pile at the stock yard.










Loading the material -- thankfully the guy at the stock yard was able to load it with their skidsteer. Notice the steam.










Thankfully, I didn't have to unload it with a shovel.










Here's the final result with my boys enjoying it.










Another view of my haul today.

It's a start! I have hauled from the stock yard before, but never eight loads in one day. I will be doing more. . .

mudburn


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## Trisha in WA

mudburn, that is a beautiful pile!!! I have compost envy of you now too. sigh


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## Forerunner

I love steam.

How far is the stock yard from home ?

You might be able to pull a farm wagon behind the old truck.
The dump bed is priceless. 

I have more pics, and some ideas to share in the next day or so.
I'm going to write a bit about my experience and preferences in tooling up for this job.

I recently added two more Heider silage wagons to my fleet. They will haul, and dump, 8 tons each, with ease.


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## mudburn

The stock yard is just a tad over 6 miles from home. I was able to make the trip from the yard to home and back, including dumping the contents, in 30 minutes. It couldn't be done any quicker. I averaged 45 minutes for complete trips, accounting for the time to get loaded. They are happy for me to take the material b/c they pay another individual to haul it away. I have a 16 foot trailer that can haul 3 or 4 tons. Unloading it would require the use of a shovel. I've done this before. Between the truck and the trailer, I wouldn't want to haul more than 4 or 5 tons at a time. I'll have to figure if this would work out better on the time involved. If my truck could handle it, my KY farm tags allow up to 38,000 gross combined weight (my truck can't, of course). I look forward to your upcoming posts. mudburn


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## Forerunner

I like the fact that your sale barn uses a lot of bedding. That will save you having to come up with so much carbon to get the mix good and hot.
The fact that it is already hot is a plus, as well. I generally don't put energy into turning a pile. Time does a fine job of that if the mix is even close. BUT, dipping into, hauling and making another pile when the material has already started heating does serve to further oxidize and blend to your notable advantage.

The distance you have to travel, and the fact you are using a truck rather than tractor, and the fact that they will load it for you, gives you an efficiency not far from mine, and I bet you could haul just about as much on a good day as I can.
If you haul off and buy or build a decent dump trailer to pull behind the pickup, I may have to break a sweat to keep up.

I've learned a bit, over the years, about what does and what doesn't work when it comes to hauling heavy loads long distances.

If you want to haul heavy, put money into your axle ratings.
Tires, rims, bearings, are all weak points that you might as well buy heavy and durable from the start.
I dearly love the heavy axle dump that I built from the single axle road tractor.
I'm looking to make another from a tandem axle truck and a large steel bulk tank cut in half, lengthwise, for the dump box.

I've seen my fair share of light to medium farm running gears shoot craps on the highway, as well as closer to home, for the fact that they didn't appreciate even what I thought would be a reasonable load.
I have come to thoroughly appreciate the old Heider brand silage wagons with the ten ton hoist and 11/15- 12.5/15 tires. I can pull one of those a short, gentle distance with ten tons on, and I have no hesitation in pulling eight tons for extended miles.
I've had 12 tons on my semi dump and I pull a Heider barge wagon behind it, every time I can.
I have seen the heavier, better built barge wagons sell for 2500 at auction.
I bought my first at a farm auction several years ago for 350.
Recently I was perusing _Tractorhouse.com_ and came across a pair for sale in western Iowa for 2500, total. They come about 80 inches by 12 feet long, standard, but one of the units above mentioned was a full 14 feet long. That will make an awesome wood chip/sawdust/grass clippings/leaves trailer.... but I'll have to watch myself loading it with wet manure.
I got those two wagons delivered for another 650 and was delighted to get them.
If I were using a good pickup for my horse, I'd either go with a mid-range running gear dump or build a bit lighter trailer than my version out of a one ton truck frame, or even another three quarter ton.
Those old barge wagon hoists are often found setting lonely and all but unwanted at farm auctions, and they fit right into an old truck frame real nice. Either way, I'd build or buy my dump box rather heavy and a little on the short side, and set it up so that I can put high sides on when carrying lighter material.

After a long winter of doing little but keeping the sale barn cleaned up on the better days (they're commercial and like to keep things pretty tidy),
the day my new wagons arrived, I made a trip to the Canton yard waste facility to find that they had, rather than shove them into the burn pile, carried/pushed all the wood chips that had been dumped over the winter up against last fall's leaf pile. That touched me.
I explained to them the benefits of piling the material rather than spreading it to decompose, and the leaf pile has shrunk and composted considerably already. They can haul more weight on their trucks that way, as well, as can I.
Following is a brief photo tour.....

Some people say I never smile. Well, those people--and they are many-- simply have never seen me, freshly unhooked from the rig and ready to start loading up organic matter......










Here's a standard, 12 foot Heider barge wagon.










Loading up....










Dipping into the chip pile, which is against the leaf pile toward the bottom of the pic. There are probably 5-6 semi loads of chips, and the leaf pile contains more like 35-40.










The pile shown here is what they pushed up last fall from what had been mouldering for several years. They are delighted to have all the space back, and are fixing to haul that material to me when the weather straightens out for the season.










There's nothing like hot, steamy wood chips to mix with cold, wet and heavy cow manure.










The rig. It pulls real nice for a twenty ton gross payload.










Now, if an individual has the cash or the truck, a semi would be the way to go for hauling. The time saved and the payload per trip can't be beat.
But, in today's economy, I have the time, and don't mind the upkeep, and have committed to maintaining a budget for the fuel.
I can haul 3-4 semi loads in a day, depending on where I'm hauling from.
Fuel costs me less than ten bucks a trip. It would cost about 75 dollars a semi load if I were to hire it so done....and that still loading the material with my own larger loader.
The way I'm doing it leaves me with options and no clock running in the event of unforeseen mishap or breakdown. The loader tractor is a must in this effort, regardless, and the wagons come in handy for many other purposes. 
I have learned to take setbacks in stride....flat tires, plugged fuel filters, dead batteries, blown radiators, etc. All are nothing more than mundane opportunities to develop and hone patience.


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## MullersLaneFarm

Hey! 

Tim has a SMILE!!!

Wow ... who'd of thunk?!?!?!?

lol!


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## Forerunner

Sarcastic fiber enablers, anyhow........:bored:


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## Pennsyltucky

I have to say this is the best thread I have ever read, hands down. I'm wondering, have you ever sent soil samples for fertility testing? I would really like to see results from soil not yet amended with compost compared to soil where you've been applying for the longest duration. Many states offer free soil testing, so the only cost involved would be for shipping. Here's a link that lists some soil testing labs in your state.

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/soiltest/

My state, NC, does soil testing for free. I didn't check any prices of the private labs, but if they are cost prohibitive, I may be able to submit the samples on your behalf. I think free tests are limited to NC residents.


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## misplaced

mudburn said:


> I've been inspired by Forerunner to become as extreme as I can in my composting efforts. I spent several hours today (about 5, actually) hauling 16 tons of mixed bedding and manure from the local stock yard, two tons at a time since that's all that my truck can handle in one load. There was more that I could have hauled, but I didn't. If I could haul more at one time, I'd have cleaned them out. They use a lot of sawdust in their bedding, and there was a bit of hay mixed in. It was quite hot in the pile at the stock yard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading the material -- thankfully the guy at the stock yard was able to load it with their skidsteer. Notice the steam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully, I didn't have to unload it with a shovel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the final result with my boys enjoying it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another view of my haul today.
> 
> It's a start! I have hauled from the stock yard before, but never eight loads in one day. I will be doing more. . .
> 
> mudburn



I love the pictures of the kids playing on the compost piles.. 
I thought our kids were the only ones who did that :happy:


----------



## mudburn

Rebel Lemming said:


> I love the pictures of the kids playing on the compost piles..
> I thought our kids were the only ones who did that :happy:


 They are mountains to be conquered, after all! And, boys will be boys. Mine are 8.5 and 6 years old and are learning a great deal. The other day they were collecting old manure for composting on their small flower garden. Ramiah, the older boy, told me they added extra nitrogen to what they collected -- they peed on it! Them's some fine boys!  mudburn


----------



## salmonslayer

I am jealous of your truck Mudburn.....


----------



## mudburn

I find myself thinking about how I can increase my composting efforts and haul more at a time. I really appreciate your advice and instruction on gearing up for the efforts, Tim. 

I don't have a loader tractor at this point in time, but I am waiting for the small skidsteer I purchased to be delivered (I bought it off a guy in Michigan and am having another guy from OH deliver it). It was a good deal -- for what I'm paying for the machine and the hauling, I believe I could make money in a quick turnaround sale, if I so desired. However, I'm hoping it will work for my purposes at this point in time. 

At this time, I don't have a farm wagon, let alone a dump wagon. One would be nice -- I can see its utility. Thankfully, I can haul and unload with ease as much as I can with what I now have. Adding extra weight on a trailer will affect how much I can load in the truck. Pulling a wagon wouldn't add extra tongue weight, which would be good. There are a couple of hills (not counting my drive to the bottom where I must unload the stuff) that would require good brakes one way and a lower gear the other. 

Another option that I'm thinking of, maybe not right away (I need time to think it through), is another dump truck. I saw some advertised on Craigslist for about what you paid for your new Heider barge wagons that would allow me to haul 10-12 tons per load (maybe more). Time-wise and safety-wise because of weight, this might be the most practical solution. My thoughts go further -- if I have the equipment, I do believe I could get the contract from the sale barn to haul all of their waste away. I don't know what they're paying for their current hauling contract, but free is certainly better. They also pay $65 per animal to the company that picks up their dead cows for the rendering plant. I do believe I would have to get a little larger to handle that, but it is another opportunity waiting to be taken advantage of. 

One of my challenges is mud. During the winter and early spring months, I need to traverse a section of my property that can get quite muddy. I'm going to make a dumping/staging area that won't require tracking through the mud, and I may be able to use another area -- just gotta think creatively here. If I can deal with the hauling/loading challenges and the mud issues, there's a lot of good material to be had from the sale barn. 

In the meantime, I'll keep plugging away as I am able. Something is much better than nothing in this case! I hope you're syrup season progresses well. A friend across town tapped about 200 trees and has given us enough sap to make several gallons of syrup. I just brought back some this morning. The syrup this year seems to have a better flavor than last year for some reason. 

mudburn


----------



## mudburn

salmonslayer said:


> I am jealous of your truck Mudburn.....


 It is very handy, although it's not a long distance truck. I sold my 1996 3/4 ton Suburban last year and bought the F250, primarily because of the dump bed. The Suburban was great for hauling the family, and it could pull anything you hooked it to with ease (7.4 liter big block). But, the truck is more practical.

mudburn


----------



## Forerunner

One time, long ago, I remember the thought crossing my mind that it would be interesting to get a soil test......
but for pity, I have abstained. I hate to think of the mental trauma that might be experienced by any particular lab technician who has spent his/her life rolling their eyes over--oh boy--_another_ soil sample to be tested, and then spend the rest of the week getting their lab equipment looked at to see what went wrong when they try testing mine. I fear that I could be held liable for any manner of consequential psychological damage that may result.
Who knows ? There might actually be damage to their equipment, as well.
It's a litigation-happy world out there.....:grin:

I do have good contacts at the local university, and could maybe get with the right people and forewarn them ?

I do get a pretty good representation each year of my soil conditions via the health of the crops and produce.
I also have a couple organic farmer friends who would dearly like to see the results of a more professional test....



Pennsyltucky said:


> I have to say this is the best thread I have ever read, hands down. I'm wondering, have you ever sent soil samples for fertility testing? I would really like to see results from soil not yet amended with compost compared to soil where you've been applying for the longest duration. Many states offer free soil testing, so the only cost involved would be for shipping. Here's a link that lists some soil testing labs in your state.
> 
> http://urbanext.illinois.edu/soiltest/
> 
> My state, NC, does soil testing for free. I didn't check any prices of the private labs, but if they are cost prohibitive, I may be able to submit the samples on your behalf. I think free tests are limited to NC residents.


----------



## Forerunner

The snow is finally melting here, as well, and I have several piles really beginning to steam.
The gardening itch is becoming rather an unbearable nuisance. 

Oh, and....my boys get in trouble if they DON'T pee on a compost pile.:flame:




rose2005 said:


> Add ours to that mix too. They dont mind getting muddy and covered with goodness knows what. They just have fun enjoying what they are doing.
> 
> Forerunner, my winter compost in my barn seems to be working. My feet were cold and I was standing in the the barn where the winter hay has piled up along with chicken, goat and sheep poop. I was standing still as we were sawing a board for the lambing jug, and my feet got lovely and warm.
> 
> I'll soon be hauling that hay/maure out (about 3-4 feet deep) and getting it back to the bare earth. I'll put it all in a pile to continue to break down. :dance:
> 
> Rose


----------



## Forerunner

Mudburn, the skidloader is an excellent start.
You will have, at the turn of a key, 100 men with pitchforks and shovels at your command.
The way I'm set up, some days I seem to have 500, or more.
I don't take that for granted. I have it always in the forefront of my mind as I work.
It is that very capability that I/we are given in this day to accomplish so much so quickly that pricks my conscience with the conviction that I am to utilize this gift of diesel technology with all of my mind, strength and energy.
I have lost all ambition for any other endeavor but to leave as large a patch of this earth as extremely fertile as I possibly can. Someone will benefit, somewhere, somehow, someday, possibly if not probably in ways not yet foreseen.
Whether by default or intent, it appears that the corporate powers and their agents and their principles have gone all out to destroy the true fertility of this earth.
I am irresistibly convicted to at least meet them halfway, if not overcome their effort at some point. Obviously, I cannot do so alone, except through the education and inspiration of others.....

The idea of purchasing a larger dump truck is also a step in the right direction. A one ton grain truck can haul five tons.
A "2 ton" can haul 8-10, depending on state laws and the truck's gross weight rating. A tandem axle dump is good for 15-17 tons.

I've had all three at different times in my life, back when I used to make use of such things as driver licenses, etc. and I do dearly miss that tandem axle dump truck.....

I've been boiling sap all day. Canned 5 and a half gallons this a.m. 
It looks like the season may be cut drastically short as there is no real freeze in sight for the next ten days.
I guess I'll just have to get back to composting.

As for the mud, I have learned to plan for the weather, make hay while the sun shines, and, well.....in a pinch, I jump on the bulldozer. :ashamed:


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> Sarcastic fiber enablers, anyhow........:bored:


:heh:


----------



## salmonslayer

Congratulations to you and the Mrs Forerunner, I just realized.


----------



## Forerunner

Thanks, Salmon.

I guess there's more than just soil fertility around here.:lookout:


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> Thanks, Salmon.
> 
> I guess there's more than just soil fertility around here.:lookout:






:rotfl:


----------



## Jerngen

LOL!! Congrats


----------



## michelleIL

I'd be interested in that professional soil test as well!


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah, yeah......... I've been giving it some more thought, myself.

Those lab techs are a tough lot. 

Pennsyltucky, send me your mailing info in a pm if you're still in.


----------



## Pennsyltucky

You betcha. PM sent.


----------



## simplepeace

This thread has so inspired me. 
I have been what I thought was pretty good composter - after this I see I have been small-time (mostly kitchen, woodstove, yard & chicken-coop waste composting (for years). Not knocking what I have done, but am now inspired to go large 
Today while out walking I saw the guys in the big orange truck out trimming branches from the utility lines. Medium sized lightbulb goes on, and I approached them and said "You can leave the wood where it falls, I'll gather it" Guy replies "Sure. We'll chip the brush and leave the wood" I thought hey, that's even better. 
I continue with my walk but I am thinking hard and so I turn around early and go back to talk to them again. 
Me: (newly brave wanna-be-Forerunner) "So? Where do you dump your chipper?" Guy: "Anywhere we can find to dump it!" Paydirt - pardon the pun. 
They do this run in the area throughout late summer and will bring it all to me  They couldn't back into the snow by my shed today, but I expect they should be able to next week (considering the forecast). I better go take before photos!
I am so excited! Whodathunkit!? Neighbors are going to be bringing me more cow & horse poo too. I told them all about this post and the worried about smell etc... I explained it (well, I tried & it sounded good at the time) and now they'll see it.
It's a new day for compost in this neck of the woods - hoo-rah!


----------



## Forerunner

*wipes away tears of joy*

Now see how easy that was ?
Between a relatively unlimited supply of carbon, and an appreciable source of nitrogen, you're on the fast track, and odor will be a non-issue.

I wish I had to compete for the stuff in my area.

The sale barn has been absolutely overrun since early January and I'm barely keeping up hauling out an average of 17 tons a day. The trouble is, it's too muddy for me to get in where I need to dump the stuff.
Canton's piles aren't such a priority to get hauled off, there being no public nuisance issue, but they've got thousands of yards of material.
....and that's not counting all the smaller farms around that are waiting for me to get there.
Some days I wonder how laid back and simple life must be for normal, uninspired people.....


----------



## Trisha in WA

Those orange trucks do that here too, but there is actually a waiting list to get the chipped stuff. We live in the land of lots of mud and I think most people use it for pathways.


----------



## Freya

Ok I saw a link to this farm on another thread here on HT.


http://snakeroot.net/farm/FarmPix.shtml If you go half way down they show how the town brings them leaves every year, and that they say the town estimates it saves $3000 in tax money.

If you keep clicking you go onto their mulching page: http://snakeroot.net/farm/UsingMulches.shtml which then describes their brochure they hand out: http://snakeroot.net/farm/WeWantYourLeaves.shtml to get said compost/mulching material.



That does not see like a bad idea either to anyone else on this thread looking for a way to get more "good stuff". 



*Tim maybe you should have Lori set you up a website too... you will get more hits when people do an online search if you have blogs and forums all linking/pointing to a website.  You can spread the word farther and faster. * :rock:


----------



## misplaced

Freya said:


> Ok I saw a link to this farm on another thread here on HT.
> 
> 
> http://snakeroot.net/farm/FarmPix.shtml If you go half way down they show how the town brings them leaves every year, and that they say the town estimates it saves $3000 in tax money.
> 
> If you keep clicking you go onto their mulching page: http://snakeroot.net/farm/UsingMulches.shtml which then describes their brochure they hand out: http://snakeroot.net/farm/WeWantYourLeaves.shtml to get said compost/mulching material.
> 
> 
> 
> That does not see like a bad idea either to anyone else on this thread looking for a way to get more "good stuff".
> 
> 
> 
> *Tim maybe you should have Lori set you up a website too... you will get more hits when people do an online search if you have blogs and forums all linking/pointing to a website.  You can spread the word farther and faster. * :rock:


I've tried to talk him into getting his own site... but he just won't listen
He explains this stuff so much better than I can.


----------



## countrysunshine

I thought of this thread yesterday evening. My son cleaned out a space in his grandparents' barn to put the lamb his fiance is feeding out. The barn used to have horses. My SIL was very poor at cleaning out the stalls. So, there was a lot of manure, straw and hay in there.

After they cleaned the "junk" out and were off getting panels to build the sheep pen w/ I started taking out the manure. I was working as fast as I could and my husband came to help me. He asked what I wanted to do with it and I said put it on my herb bed and my flower beds. We cleaned out 6" of dry, composted manure.

I kept thinking, "Forerunner would be so proud of me!" LOL

I have a question, Forerunner. Last year we put the leaves we vacuumed up on our garden. Unfortunately these contained a lot of shag bark hickory and the hulls from the hickory nut trees. Our garden got SEVERELY stunted. Took me until July to figure out what had gone wrong.

Do you know if I compost those in a pile for long enough will the juglome cook out?

Thanks,

CS


----------



## Forerunner

It most certainly will.

The key is a hot, working pile.
You'll need enough material to build a pile about the size of two pick-up loads to get good, enduring heat. More is better.

Those old stall cleanings are priceless. 
That rich, powdery stuff just goes with about any floral decor.


----------



## blooba

Well I can see my 2 compost piles(the snow melted) but still havent trudged through the snow to get to them. I sure hope they are nice and steamy underneath. No steam visible from the top.(might have too much carbon)


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## mudburn

One more step towards radical/extreme composting: my "new" (very old) skidsteer loader. Just brought it home this morning after it endured a long trip from way up in Michigan. I have yet to fill the bucket with compost or bedding & manure, though. I need to do a little tuning-up first.










It's not really a model 610 -- it's an M500, but that doesn't matter much at this point.

mudburn


----------



## Forerunner

100 men with shovels and wheelbarrels.

Never take that for granted and you'll do just fine.

Life would be simpler if we didn't have to be diesel mechanics, but there wouldn't be much compost made.


----------



## Forerunner

blooba said:


> Well I can see my 2 compost piles(the snow melted) but still havent trudged through the snow to get to them. I sure hope they are nice and steamy underneath. No steam visible from the top.(might have too much carbon)


I always prefer to err on the side of carbon.
Carbon will eventually break down. It absorbs nitrogen, seems to seek it out.
Manure will turn to silage/sauerkraut if left unmixed. Smells interesting, but doesn't do much for the soil in that state.


----------



## beahold

Hi Everyone

Here's a different look at bulk composting with some info about some lab testing.

http://www.tuthillfarms.com/1/235/index.asp

Thanks Forerunner for all the great info.

BeaHold


----------



## Freya

Rebel Lemming said:


> I've tried to talk him into getting his own site... but he just won't listen
> He explains this stuff so much better than I can.



Maybe you should just do it and tell him it's a "present". :heh:








*Mudburn*.... I think you should paint some flames on that puppy. :rock: It just screams for some "flair". :gaptooth:


----------



## fishhead

beahold said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Here's a different look at bulk composting with some info about some lab testing.
> 
> http://www.tuthillfarms.com/1/235/index.asp
> 
> Thanks Forerunner for all the great info.
> 
> BeaHold


Looks like they've got it coming and going. Charge to drop off and charge to pick up. Sounds like a good business on top of being the right thing to do.


----------



## Forerunner

......and, they have a tub grinder.:grumble:


----------



## Forerunner

It has been a long, cold, wet winter.
I was able to catch up a bit on my hauling over the last few weeks, alternating loads between sale barn and municipal wood chip and leaf piles.
The frost has very recently gone out and there have been a couple of "frost boils" show up on our gravel road. These are like pockets of tooth-paste consistency clay/water that burst from beneath the previously functional and long-established road, and you can easily bury an entire tractor in one with little effort. The first incident wasn't too bad; I dropped the entire front quarter of one of my wagons into one....and was able to pull it out with just the bulldozer. The second time, in a different hole, right in the middle of the road..... it took the dozer chained to the tractor, and the backhoe chained to the dozer, to barely pull my heavy dump wagon out of the quagmire.
So.... I have ceased my hauling efforts and will be turning my attention toward pruning fruit trees and grape vines, setting out new grape clippings and preparing panels to be A-framed for the summer's tomato, pepper, cucumber, pea and bean crops.......until the road settles.

My last accumulations-- two large piles-- of compost from last summer and fall are decomposing nicely, and the slightest disturbance of the surface of those piles exposes thousands of worms in what was a sand and clay field a couple short years ago.....

Lori took a few pics of the piles, from different angles, with Matthew posing here and there for comic relief.
Our guest cabin can be seen in the background in this one.










To avoid creating a pond, I split the material into two piles as I built up.
Properly mixed, they won't leak much of their super concentrated compost tea, but there is evidence, after this last wet year, of some leaching.
With my new approach of building the piles around the center of the fields in which they will be spread, all such leaching of black gold will be ripped into the soil as the need arises, with zero loss of nutrient. Here is a shot of the two piles from the east.










A shot from the north, overlooking the river valley beyond.










A shot from the south, Matthew posing for depth and size, I think....
Note the heavy concentration of sawdust in the corner.....my carbon reserve bank.










A larger shot from the southwest, coming up the hill from the house and buildings, below.










There is always a steady flow of deceased livestock, seasonally increasing a bit as calving season progresses. This all came from one larger Angus farmer about 15 miles northeast of us. There are two full grown cows that died in calving, and over a half dozen separate calves that couldn't make it in this cold world. It looks like quite a loss, and would be. But the man does support a breeding herd of 370 cows......
Note the piles of wood chips in the background, waiting to do their part for odor elimination and nutrient absorption.


----------



## Freya

:bow:


----------



## Forerunner

Freya, you just couldn't let this thread rest, could you.:bdh:

Well, while we're here... an interested couple got with me privately to inquire about my feed mill that I use to grind bones. They wanted a picture of the hammers for a reference as to what they might look for in a bone grinder of their own.
Now, the last thing I did with that grinder was shred some not-quite-dry-enough leaves as an experiment for sawdust substitute for the toilet, and, well, there's still leaves in there.

I got a couple decent shots anyhow. The knives are two or two and a half inches wide, six or eight inches long and maybe five/sixteenths of an inch thick.
They swing on a square frame assembly that gives them a little more distance from center, hence speed at the impact point.

Don't mind the, umm, leaves. I promise I'll clean those out some day soon.


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> Freya, you just couldn't let this thread rest, could you.:bdh:



I could not in good conscience allow it.


:stirpot:


----------



## Pony

How did the leaves work for your sawdust toilet? We're always looking for new things to add to ours.


----------



## Pony

rose2005 said:


> We mainly used sawdust to 'cover' when using, and leaves to cover when emptying.
> 
> When low, we have crushed the leaves up too. I think you can also use peat.
> 
> Rose


We don't have a huge supply of leaves, but I think they might be nice. Right now, we have a goodly supply of spoilt hay we got last year for free.

There is a custom cabinet shop in town, and the owner lets us have as much sawdust as we want. 

It should be interesting when my brother and nephew come to visit next week. <shaking head> I think my brother thinks I've lost it. Either that, or he thinks, "Goofy hippies." :rotfl:


----------



## Forerunner

Any carbon source will work for toilet cover, but the finer consistencies work the best.
The finely shredded leaves were great. I just needed to let them dry a little before grinding. There is a process by which "leaf mould" can be made from not-too-wet of leaves. Rodale's composting books address this topic at length. The process and result are represented each year in the deciduous forests where, the deeper you dig in the ever accumulating/ever decomposing leaf bed, the finer you will find the consistency of the leaves as they decompose back to timber soil.


----------



## blooba

I know its not compost related :frypan: but

Forerunner, you could take those leaves and pelletize them for heat in the winter also. Although you probably aren't lacking any wood on that beautiful peice of land.


----------



## fishhead

It's too bad there isn't a reasonable way to capture the methane produced from all the composting.


----------



## insocal

fishhead said:


> It's too bad there isn't a reasonable way to capture the methane produced from all the composting.


Proper aerobic composting shouldn't produce ANY methane. Methane is produced as a result of anaerobic fermentation of organic material, like in swamps.

I let a compost pile get too wet in the middle (LOL) and am pretty sure it produced a little methan for a bit, but well-managed compost won't.


----------



## Forerunner

Indeed, it is not the process of composting, but the materials that I drag in every day that would work well for making methane, were I set up to make such use.
The manure, wood chips, leaves, grass clippings, etc. would all blend beautifully in a digester.


----------



## insocal

Forerunner said:


> Indeed, it is not the process of composting, but the materials that I drag in every day that would work well for making methane, were I set up to make such use.
> The manure, wood chips, leaves, grass clippings, etc. would all blend beautifully in a digester.


If you get bored, that can be your NEXT project: a digester that produces biogas for generating your electricity needs. You can send me a check as a token of your eternal gratitude for the idea, lol.


----------



## fishhead

http://www.electricitybook.com/composting-for-heat/


----------



## mudburn

It was a good day for extreme composting. 

I headed off to the sale barn this morning with my truck and trailer, intending to haul several loads. With the trailer, I figured I could haul a little more than twice what I could with the truck alone. Earlier this week I worked out a method of unloading the trailer that didn't involve extensive use of a scoop shovel.

The method I employed lets me roll the load off of the trailer. I attached several 2x6 boards to two logging chains (I used lag screws). This is laid on the floor of the trailer, and the material is loaded on top. To unload, the chains are hooked to the back of the trailer while two more chains are connected at the front. I attach these chains to my tractor and pull toward the back of the trailer. If it all works right, the material rolls off the back of the trailer, leaving only a small amount that fell between the 2x6s which is easily removed with a scoop shovel. Then, the 'false floor' is put back in place for the next load.

Here are some photos of the process:









All hooked up and ready to unload.









Starting to roll off the trailer.









There it goes!









This is what's left (there was a little extra left at the back of the trailer because the chains came unhooked at the back).









Putting the 'false floor' back in place (photo taken from atop the material yet to be dumped from the truck).

I hauled three loads this morning. I would've hauled more, but I had an appointment to look at a loader tractor (which I bought). I figured in those three loads that I hauled in about 14 tons of material.









This is my pile from this morning. Well, there was some from trying out my unloading method earlier this week.

When I arrived at the sale barn, the guy who gets paid to haul off the material had just finished loading his tandem axle dump truck and was ready to leave. I told him I would be glad for him to haul as much of the material as possible (all of it actually) for me. He was more than willing and hauled five loads today.









The younguns enjoying climbing on the piles from the five dump truck loads.

I'm pleased with today's acquisition. I still need to locate a good source of carbon. There is lots of small saw mills around here, but the local Kingsford plant sucks up all of the saw dust for a 60 mile radius. 

mudburn


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

So ... Tim, If Ernie has to take/retrieve livestock from your area about the weekend after Father's Day, want to catch a ride (you and Lori and the chilluns) with him back to our place for the Homesteading Weekend??

This is the one that I promised to both Carla & Wendy to keep going every year. They were both pretty insistant that summer that we do so, I know why now ...


----------



## BamaSpek

Nice noodle work on the "compost burrito" method of unloading. I like it. :thumb: Good looking pile too. 

I gotta get busy with some composting.


----------



## BamaSpek

double post! Oops!


----------



## Forerunner

blooba said:


> I know its not compost related :frypan: but
> 
> Forerunner, you could take those leaves and pelletize them for heat in the winter also. Although you probably aren't lacking any wood on that beautiful peice of land.


I do have plenty of wood. 
The bulldozing that I do periodically for neighbors turns up even more.
We cut dead wood off township roads, as well.

If I did anything alternative with heat, it would be more with the heating power of compost.....and, maybe methane, seeing as it's so renewable, and clean.

That said, I do greatly appreciate my wood heat.


----------



## Forerunner

insocal said:


> If you get bored, that can be your NEXT project: a digester that produces biogas for generating your electricity needs. You can send me a check as a token of your eternal gratitude for the idea, lol.


Traveling by tractor for hours at a time lends one to endless contemplation about a great many things. Hauling organic materials over the last ten years has given me a LOT of such time.
The subjects of "waste" management, food production, general industry and making provision for the basic needs of mankind are usually on the front burner as I make my way through each day of labor.

I have long envisioned a small, cooperative village...... made up of either extended family or just very like-minded and dedicated men and their families.
There is always industry in my ponderings about this village.
There is a sawmill and a gristmill, both powered by the large creek that flows nearby. There are several men who keep cattle, some for dairy and some for beef. There are private and community gardens.

It is not necessarily a closed loop community, but it could be at a moment's notice. All food, water, clothing and building materials can be procured from the land through those who know how to cultivate it. 
The town generates no "waste".

All sewage could be disposed of through a fairly conventional sewage system, and collected at the village methane digester.
The methane could run the one large generator that supplies power for the town. 
The spent slurry would then be mixed with the town's wood and landscape wastes, and composted.....

The backup power system could be steam powered, run off of all the town's potential combustibles. Sawmill slabs, brush and slash grindings, paper, wood....with a properly designed burner, even plastics and other textiles could be used to generate electricity.
There could also be a hydro-plant run by that creek, complete with a reservoir for fishing and recreation..... 
Overlapping contingency plans make for impervious strength.

The cattle wastes, garden residues, municipal carbon and nitrogen wastes, etc. could all be composted in a community venture or everyman his own, or both.

From such a firm foundation, a village could venture into any direction it wanted....i.e., manufacturing, invention, agrarian, tourism. 
Once a water system is developed, waste is eliminated, food production is secured and energy means are established, all in such sustainable fashion,
utopia _could_ follow.

The only obstacle to such a permanent and working setting in which families can raise successive generations to thrive on this earth is the long antecedent malignant nature of man. 

The only way to conquer that obstacle is for every man to esteem his neighbor more highly than himself.


----------



## Forerunner

Mudburn, your sense of innovation leaves little excuse for those not diesel endowed to sit longer idle. The simplest of technologies will, in the end, far outweigh all labor ever accomplished by complex machines. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Only after the way is set and the course is begun will further and seemingly greater opportunity present itself.
Men were created to _act._
It seems as though a few of us _radicals_ need to wake up our brethren to that high calling..... not to mention raise our sons and daughters to follow boldly in our footsteps.

......and, you do need a carbon source. Have you considered a small pto woodchipper for your tractor ?
I see you have an abundance of brush. Jean Paine made his own tractor-mounted woodchipper and powered it with his own methane..... and made huge piles of compost. Are there any towns close where you could get leaves, grass clippings ?
Any food-related industries that produce a carbon waste ?


----------



## blooba

So shall I pack my bags? We all coming to your place? You gotta share your compost though


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## Forerunner

MullersLaneFarm said:


> So ... Tim, If Ernie has to take/retrieve livestock from your area about the weekend after Father's Day, want to catch a ride (you and Lori and the chilluns) with him back to our place for the Homesteading Weekend??.


I don't know how many will be able to make the trip, but Ernie and I have been discussing this. Ernie mentioned that he would like to sing for y'all while we're there and that I should do a talk about composting.


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## Forerunner

blooba said:


> So shall I pack my bags? We all coming to your place? You gotta share your compost though


I don't have the creek.

You come up with the place and the people, and I'll come help you all set it up.


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## misplaced

Mudburn....

Have I told you that I LOVE looking at your pictures?
It is so cool to see someone else doing what Tim (forerunner) does, and what our family does. 
I feel like I was there, behind the camera the whole time :thumb:
Keep posting! And keep taking lots of pictures!


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## mudburn

BamaSpek said:


> Nice noodle work on the "compost burrito" method of unloading. I like it. :thumb: Good looking pile too.
> 
> I gotta get busy with some composting.


Thanks, Bama! This method will work with a small trailer or pickup, too. I used my tractor to roll the material off, but it is possible to hook the chains to a tree or other object that won't easily move and drive forward, leaving the load behind. So, by all means, get busy! :walk:

mudburn


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## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> Mudburn, your sense of innovation leaves little excuse for those not diesel endowed to sit longer idle. . . .
> 
> It seems as though a few of us _radicals_ need to wake up our brethren to that high calling..... not to mention raise our sons and daughters to follow boldly in our footsteps.
> 
> ......and, you do need a carbon source. Have you considered a small pto woodchipper for your tractor ?


I've scooped my fair share of 'stuff' off of and on to my trailer to know the amount of time, sweat, and sore muscles that are involved. The desire to be extreme in order to become a proper steward of what has been entrusted to my care provides great motivation for innovation and creativity!

I am going to make great inroads this week on solving the problem of a good carbon source or several. There are options -- I just have to sniff them out. I also like the idea of a woodchipper for the tractor. I'm going to look into that, too.

I'll post more this week as things develop. No sense letting such a great thread die; this is important stuff! [prophead]

mudburn


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## mudburn

Rebel Lemming said:


> Mudburn....
> 
> Have I told you that I LOVE looking at your pictures?
> It is so cool to see someone else doing what Tim (forerunner) does, and what our family does.
> I feel like I was there, behind the camera the whole time :thumb:
> Keep posting! And keep taking lots of pictures!


You've told me now! Thanks for saying so -- it put a big smile on my face!  I will keep posting and sharing what we're up to with photos. It would be nice if you could be here behind the camera one of these days (you'd have to bring Tim with you, of course). 

mudburn


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## Forerunner

I have two chippers, a "Valby", Finland made, and a "Wallenstein" Canadian made.
They are both pto driven, the Valby handling up to eleven inch material, the Wallenstein with a six inch throat. The Valby has hydraulic roller feed, which is nice for maintaining a very consistent small chip uniformity. The Wallenstein is extremely aggressive and will make very short work of a brush pile, especially material three inches diameter and down.

I dare say it takes about two hours, average, with either machine, to chip up an 8-10 cubic yard load of chips. The V makes chips the size of your little finger nail, if set right; the W makes chips like you'd get from most tree service chippers.

We used to go out a couple times a day, a couple or three times a week to clean up roadsides, fencelines and the timber surrounding us, in general.....especially our neighbors' maple groves.....
Now that I have all of Canton's material, I've loaned the Valby to a friend in Missouri, and the Wallenstein sits, at the edge of the scrapyard, bored and forlorn.
I have definitely enjoyed having wood chips, for every purpose imaginable.
They eliminate the spring mud, do a fine job of bedding down all the critters, make great cover for the sawdust toilet burying operation each day, blend beautifully with that nasty, gooey sale barn manure that always comes with way too much moisture and not enough bedding material this time of year......


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## mudburn

I'd love to rescue your Wallenstein from its forlorn boredom! :gaptooth: The poor thing! :sob:

I've been doing some searching online, looking at options for pto powered chipper/shredders since you mentioned it. I really like the idea of being able to chip my own brush -- I do have plenty available, and there's always more available on neighbors' properties that they've had logged. The crew that chips under the power lines gives away the chips to whomever is close, and there are a lot of people who want the chips, mainly for mulching around trees and on walkways.

mudburn


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## lmrose

Forerunner this is just amazing and shows what a person can do with hard work and determination! Composting and feeding the soil so it in turn can feed people is the way to go for sure! When we bought our farm 24 years ago it hadn't been farmed in thirty years. The fields were run out and full of wire worms. Through composting and spreading manure and seaweed the soil came alive again! Every year it improves as we continue to feed it and it inturn grows the plants that feed us. We make smaller compost piles than you do and it takes many trips to the shore with the horse to bring home tons of seaweed that goes on our fields. Same goes for spreading all the compost and manure. We never had funds for machines so farm with a horse and old fashioned machienry but it works. Just takes alot of patience.


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## Forerunner

Mudburn, you come visit, how about you just take it home with you and use it for as long as you need. There are 4 blades to sharpen on occasion and two grease zerts to service. 
They are nearly indestructible, otherwise.


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## Forerunner

lmrose said:


> Forerunner this is just amazing and shows what a person can do with hard work and determination! Composting and feeding the soil so it in turn can feed people is the way to go for sure! When we bought our farm 24 years ago it hadn't been farmed in thirty years. The fields were run out and full of wire worms. Through composting and spreading manure and seaweed the soil came alive again! Every year it improves as we continue to feed it and it inturn grows the plants that feed us. We make smaller compost piles than you do and it takes many trips to the shore with the horse to bring home tons of seaweed that goes on our fields. Same goes for spreading all the compost and manure. We never had funds for machines so farm with a horse and old fashioned machienry but it works. Just takes alot of patience.


I envy you your ready access to the high trace mineral seaweed.
Patience has carried me as far as anything.
My piles seemed to impress all comers back when it was just a pickup and pitchfork. It is simply making the effort THE priority, a trip a day... two trips on the days when you can. The piles just grow.
I've yet to see a max in any of my fields/gardens as to quality of the produce and growing schedules. Everything just keeps improving, some years by leaps and bounds. With that as an obvious and ongoing result, where does one draw the line and say "enough"?


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## mudburn

Imrose, I'm impressed with the description of your efforts and your commitment to your soil's fertility. It sounds like you're in a good position to continue what you're doing in face of social/economic collapse/disruption.

Forerunner, we're planning a visit soon! We want to come meet you and your family in person and spend some time with you, and now you've added further enticement! :nanner:

mudburn


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## Trisha in WA

I have a question. We are moving to a very dry climate next month...it is fairly hot in the summer and several feet and sub zero temps in the winter. I will have a good sized barn for my animals. So, here is my question....if I pile the manure/bedding mix in say a 4 sided pallet "bin" IN the barn, how might being indoors effect my composting? I am hoping it will give off some heat in the winter to help keep the animals warm too. I would like to pile it up all winter and let it set all summer, then spread it inthe fall over my garden to be turned in to the soil come spring.
Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome.


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## mudburn

Trisha in WA said:


> I have a question. We are moving to a very dry climate next month...it is fairly hot in the summer and several feet and sub zero temps in the winter. I will have a good sized barn for my animals. So, here is my question....if I pile the manure/bedding mix in say a 4 sided pallet "bin" IN the barn, how might being indoors effect my composting? I am hoping it will give off some heat in the winter to help keep the animals warm too. I would like to pile it up all winter and let it set all summer, then spread it inthe fall over my garden to be turned in to the soil come spring.
> Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome.


Based upon reading the experiences and methods of several others here and there, here is what I'm doing with my animals' manure and bedding this year:

I have two milk cows, a steer for beef (next winter), and a young heifer. Early on I had a couple others -- a steer that became beef and a friends cow. They've been in the barn where I keep the hay during the winter. I have let the bedding and manure build up (deep bedding). I make sure to add dry carbon material every day and some grain each time (I started with oats and switched over to corn for the last two months). The grain is to feed two pigs which I'm going to let loosen the bedding material so it will compost as they root out the fermented grain. When the pigs are finished with their work, I'm going to sell them. They will save me a fair bit of work.

In the past, I've mucked out the cows' area in the barn every day, making a pile outside. Not a good method unless I was adding extra carbon material. So far the deep bedding method has been much easier, and I expect it to not become any more difficult. Now, if I had to muck out that mess without the assistance I expect from a couple pigs, that would be work! Ugh!

I would expect that if you piled your bedding-manure mix inside a bin in the barn (if it's properly balanced) that it would compost. I don't know how much heat it would provide for the animals. One of the ideas with the deep bedding method is that the anaerobic composting that occurs within the bedding pack provides heat for the animals right in their bed. I've not measured the temperature of the bedding pack in my barn to test this, but the animals haven't complained.

mudburn


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## Trisha in WA

mudburn, I have thought of doing exactly that as well. I am not sure we are going to be able to do the pigs though, so I was hoping for an alternative. Plus, I figured the manure/bedding mixture might compost faster if piled???


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## IndyGardenGal

Love reading these composting threads. DH was hesitant at first to get into composting on a larger level, but I've been able to hook him into with all these threads and pictures. He noticed a dump truck for sale yesterday on the side of the road and said, "that would make short work of picking up manure for our compost piles." 

I think the biggest thing for him was seeing Forerunner's pics of spreading the compost over the crop fields. You've inspired the composter in him.


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## Forerunner

Somebody mentioned worms.

The other day, I was out digging around in the piles here close to the house, in the concrete bins. The red wrigglers were everywhere.
On a whim, I decided to take the cam out to the two big piles that I posted a few pics of the last go 'round. I kicked around in there, and sure enough....
Now those piles are sitting on fill..... concrete, bricks and sand first, then several feet of sandy clay. I don't know of any source of organic materials that I've drawn from in constructing those piles that would have contained red wrigglers or any other variety of earthworm. The material is always either too fresh or too rich for them. 
The piles are roughly a year old, and the worms are absolutely _everywhere_. Even if I had knowingly imported a five gallon bucket of breeding stock, I would still be absolutely amazed at how fast they had taken over the piles. As it is, I am dumbfounded. Where do they come from ?
How do they multiply and spread so fast ? These piles are still quite hot in the center, but the older portions and the outer shell are all completely overrun with these incredible, slimy soil builders.




























I took these from various spots all over both piles. I couldn't kick open a spot where at least two dozen worms weren't quickly squirming for cover.





































The largest field that I have here is the last one to get intense attention from my compost program. I currently have three piles going up there that may dwarf everything I've constructed thus far, before I am done building them. Given the moisture levels we've been dealing with and the high urea content of the sale barn material, those piles are constantly oozing a very rich black liquid. That field is very well drained due to it's pronounced hilly nature, and I noticed that my black ooze was making its way to the bottom of the hill where it would soon reach the little irrigation pond I dug there years ago. Wouldn't hurt a thing, as that pond just overflows into another field when it does get full, but, I had the dozer fired up that day, pushing the piles up, so I just tracked over and started ripping the field perpendicular to the flow of that rich oozing stream so as to make a place for it all to soak in 18 inches or so, scarifying the entire hillside from pile to pond. Now I have added and ripped in several inches of compost in that field over the last three or four years, so it's not like the ground is virgin to my efforts, but I wasn't expecting what I saw as I was turning up that soil while I ripped in the manure tea. The worms were everywhere there, as well. The last field I have to intensely and extremely lay in with _feet_ of compost already has an absolutely incredible worm population, just waiting to finalize the digestion and enrichment of the material that will soon be spread there.

I shudder in anticipation of what five more years will do to this place.


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## Forerunner

Trisha, I concur with Mudburn on the deep bedding layering over winter.
That's what I do with cows and chickens.....just keep adding another layer of carbon.
When the weather finally comes fit in the late winter or early spring, there is a delightful and already balanced accumulation ready to pile and heat for the summer.

If you were to pile the material inside as it accumulates, especially if confined somewhat as you mentioned, in a pallet bin or otherwise, it would give some heat for the critters and, most likely, be nearly ready to use come spring.

This all reminds me of an occasion, years ago, shortly after I had graduated the pickup and fork for my hoe and dump truck.
Wendy and I had been encouraging the three older kids, at the time, to make their own compost piles out of the bedding from their own chore animals and bedding packs.
Little Sam, third child and just ahead of Joshua at that time, was the youngest composter and just a tad small for the job, but determined nonetheless. His pile was smaller than Rachel and Caleb's and it had never begun to steam as the other two's had. Late winter stall cleaning time had come.....it was somewhere around 2001-2002; I don't remember which. I used the hoe, as I usually do when cleaning the cattle pen accumulation, and piled all of the material on Sam's little pile, transforming it into, by far, the largest of the kid's piles....likely somewhere in the neighborhood of two semi-loads or more. Sam wasn't aware of this, but Wendy was.
Later that day, she and Sam came out on some routine chore duty or another and Sam stopped cold in his tracks at the sight of his pile. He would have been 3 or four years old. 

His one comment to his mother, in response to the massive and mysterious growth of his pile was "now it'll smoke". 

I'll never forget the smile on her face when she shared that with me later.


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## Trisha in WA

hmm...ok I think I could do both....deep bed for winter, then pile in the barn for summer. I am concerned that if I pile it outside, the sun will dry it out too much plus, this place we are moving to is not ours. We will be caretakers of this guest lodge. So, a compost pile in sight of visitors is probably not going to be appreciated. 
Thanks for the help/ideas fellas. I appreciate it. I love good compost for my gardens! And why not?! I have cows, chickens, horses, and rabbits to make it for me. Might as well use it.


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## Trisha in WA

Rose, how hard is it when you clean the barn in the spring? I am just picturing this all being packed solid and extremely heavy. We don't have a tractor...just good ol' shovel and muscle here LOL
I guess that has been my biggest concern. I figured if we were able to get pigs again that they would do the turning and it would be pretty easy to pull out, but I am just not sure if we will be able to do the pigs again at this new place.
I do really like the idea of the added heat though. My cows are Jerseys and are used to a pretty mild climate of western Washington...and they will be pretty suprised to see temps below zero with many feet of snow on the ground I think LOL


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## Hank

Gee....I wonder if that would have worked in my youth when Dad made us clean out the barn. "But Pa, we're practing 'deep bedding' it'll keep the stock warm!"
Me thinks he would have warmed something else........LOL

Hank
http://www.doublemfarmandchuckwagon.webs.com


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## mudburn

Trisha, it would be packed solid by spring. Cleaning that out is hard work. I'm planning on letting pigs do the work, but I don't keep pigs or have any. I'm going to buy two when I'm ready for them and then sell them when they're done. I figure that I ought to be able to recoup most of what I spend on the pigs, especially when figuring the amount of work they'll do for me. I've not done this previously, but I've pondered on it and don't see why it won't work. I'm looking forward to seeing the pigs work on that bedding pack in search of fermented grains!

mudburn


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## Trisha in WA

ok so I guess I better figure out before winter sets in again wheather or not I will be able to do the pigs there. I like raising a few pigs for slaughter each year or so. They are great little tillers. I think your plan is very sound mudburn. That is what Joel Salatin does and he says it works great. I can't see why it wouldn't. Let us know how it turns out for you.


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## Forerunner

The surliness of that bedding pack will depend on what carbon source you've utilized for the bedding portion. Sawdust and wood chips come up real nice with a pitchfork and then a shovel for cleaning up the crumbs. Heavy straw or cornstalks will require a bit more effort on that fork.


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## DJ in WA

Somehow I've missed this thread, and have spent much of today enjoying it. I admire your ambition. 

I've pondered your mention of how many humans a piece of equipment is worth. There have been discussions elsewhere about the obesity problem in our youth. Too bad you couldn't harness a hundred kids or so to tow your wagon back to your place. I think the energy in our youth is one of our most wasted resources. Almost ought to be mandatory for them to go out (walk, run, bike) to farms and work for their food. If it isn't fun enough, one could always turn it into a sport - compete for shoveling, pulling, etc.

Trisha, I don't know if you're heading my way, to eastern Washington. I've had a steaming pile of manure/bedding outside the cow shed for years. One problem of having inside a barn might be the steam coming off and going up to the roof. Wetness would require good ventilation, which would in turn cause heat loss. Cows do fine in subzero, in fact, I think they might prefer it. They produce alot of heat themselves. I'm sure they're happier in the winter than the summer.

As I've gotten older and lazier, I'm now doing some things differently. I throw cowpies into a small pile during the week and haul it off on weekends in a wheelbarrow. About once a month I clean out bedding. I scrape the loose and drier stuff off the top to expose the packed/wet bottom layer. I dig a hole in that bottom layer, then work around the hole, sticking the fork in about a foot away, and prying over the handle to break chunks off the edge. One doesn't want to lift to break it free, use leverage on the handle first to break free, then lift it. Then I put the loose stuff down on the cleaned bottom and add new bedding on top of it.

I've grown tired of moving stuff around and turning, etc, so I'm tryiing different methods. I have 3 sections in my garden, and each year I cover one of the sections with the manure/ bedding a couple feet deep. I spend the winter covering a section, then in spring/summer plant along it's edge - got some serious pumpkins last year I'm still feeding to the cow. I also just threw some turnip seeds around on top - we'll see how they do.

Anyway, that pile will sit through the next winter, then I'll remove what I need to plant into the ground. And use the old stuff I removed on other rows. Then I'll fill a different section with new stuff. I used to have piles outside the garden, but resented seeing nutrients run off the pile where I didn't need them.

Not much bedding produced during the summer, but what I get is put on rows around plants to smother weeds and reduce water loss as I drip irrigate. Or after harvesting, I'll cover a row. I also mound it up somewhat on the rows so I know where not to walk. By leaving roots in the soil when harvesting, and avoiding walking on rows, I no longer have to till.

I keep seeding new piles with redworms, and as Forerunner mentioned, it's amazing how they spread. I'm also amazed how they survive subzero temps, even in just a foot or so of material. Sometimes I wonder if one couldn't do composting just for the worms. I have occasionally thrown some compost in the chicken pens and let them have some fun picking out the wigglers. Millions of worms seem like a big feed source.


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## Trisha in WA

DJ I am heading to north central WA. The available barn is...well ventilated you could say LOL It is an old homestead log barn. We will actually have to do some work on it so the wind doesn't just blow right through. I won't be able to keep my pile out side of the barn because it needs to be out of sight of the guests. So it is either piled inside or deep bedding. 
Forerunner, I plan to use wood chips and or sawdust for the bedding, so maybe I can deep bed after all with that. I guess I will just have to experiment and see what will work best.


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## rowan57

Forerunner, have you looked at selling your worms for start-up composting / bait? I think it can be quite a lucrative business.


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## Forerunner

IndyGardenGal said:


> Love reading these composting threads. DH was hesitant at first to get into composting on a larger level, but I've been able to hook him into with all these threads and pictures. He noticed a dump truck for sale yesterday on the side of the road and said, "that would make short work of picking up manure for our compost piles."
> 
> I think the biggest thing for him was seeing Forerunner's pics of spreading the compost over the crop fields. You've inspired the composter in him.


How is the gearing up for extreme composting going ?
I love to hear about the felluhs that just needed a nudge.....


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## Forerunner

DJ in WA said:


> Somehow I've missed this thread, and have spent much of today enjoying it. I admire your ambition.
> Sometimes I wonder if one couldn't do composting just for the worms. I have occasionally thrown some compost in the chicken pens and let them have some fun picking out the wigglers. Millions of worms seem like a big feed source.


My ambition isn't always so endearingly regarded.......

I have given the worms a good deal of thought. 
They are a tremendous resource for many reasons.
When the chickens are loose, they know the shortest path to every compost pile on the place.....

I hate the holocaust that must be forced upon the little guys every time I till a patch of land..... but, those that don't survive the experience just make further food for flora and fauna, alike.


To answer *Rowan's* question,

I did put the financial foundation under my little empire by selling dew and other bait worms in my youth. 
Since then, however, I have engaged in many and varied occupations of common right and have witnessed first hand the fickle nature of all highly recommended financial endeavors. 
It takes time and lots of sweat to get any honest money making venture off the ground. I've come to the point that I'd rather pour ALL of my energy into accumulating compost and spreading it.
Given the economic and physical nature of the day we are in, the value of this soil far outweighs any financial reward that I may ever recoup.

Now that's not to say that the boys won't someday take a notion.....


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## Forerunner

Trisha, I've been following your posts since I began this thread, and it's obvious that you "get it".
Every post you've made in here has only further evidenced your down-to-earth and capable nature, as well as your accurate perceptions concerning the finer aspects of composting.
I have actually enjoyed your little ruse, of late, what with pretending that the bedding issue remotely had you stumped.


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## Trisha in WA

ROFLMAO OK you caught me, but in my defense, I do genuinely want opinions on either piling or deep bedding. I am leaning towards the piling only because of the amount of labor I invision a deep bedding requiring to remove.
Guess I was hoping to add food for thought too ;-)


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## sorcerer

I worked at an equestrian center when I was a teenager. We deep bedded the horses in their box stalls and when done correctly it is fantastic. Every spring we would do a massive barn muck out. There were 14 stalls - each 10x12 and it was a HUGE job. Very heavy and sometimes smelly. However the benefits were well worth the 2-3 days of hard work for the spring clean out. 

When I worked on a ranch a few years ago I had a small barn I could use and had chickens, rabbits, sheep and turkey's. I deep bedded then as well and again did a heavy spring cleaning that usually took the better part of one day. The labour saved over the winter was great, the heat for the barn was great and even the hard work in the spring was not too bad as I usually did it on one of the first really warm days of the year and spending the day in the warm sun was great. 

When I have the oppourtunity to have critters again I won't even consider anything other than deep bedding! The huge pile of compost that comes out in the spring makes the work worth it.


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## sorcerer

Trisha -Sorry if I am misunderstanding your two options but if you build a pile inside as you muck out over the winter - won't it be just as big a job to move that pile in the spring as it would be to muck out a deep bed? I would think that having an indoor manure pile would be much smellier than deep bedding as well.


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## Trisha in WA

sorcerer, my experience is that bedding gets wet and heavy and packs down which makes it very hard to remove (remember we are talking cows not horses the manure is wetter by nature) If I added enough shavings to make it lighter, it might be an option.
I would not have a manure pile in the barn but a compost pile. The difference being the amount of carbon added. I would pick the manure and pile it then cover with shavings or other carbon material each day. This would keep the pile from ever smelling bad. Plus, it would not be packed down like deep bedding.
The trade off is the bedding is always kept very clean, which when you are milking a cow in there is extremely important.


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## sorcerer

Trisha - I have never had cows but I can imagine that the deep bedding would be very different from horses!

And it makes more sense constructing an indoor compost pile vs just a manure pile - definately would take care of the smell!

I understand the dilema!


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## IndyGardenGal

Forerunner said:


> How is the gearing up for extreme composting going ?
> I love to hear about the felluhs that just needed a nudge.....


We're creating several compost bins with wood pallets down one of our fence rows (have a couple neighbors that would be sure to complain about a large pile). There are 3 different horse stables within a short distance of here, and we've talked to the owners of one enough, that it shouldn't be too difficult to find a way to work out coming in and hauling off manure. We have to call the county to see where they send all the leaves and such.

We're hoping to continue saving for a bigger piece of land that will allow us large compost piles. He's been eyeballing manure spreaders to help with spreading it around hay fields and such.


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## Forerunner

I have two neighbors on this mile stretch of gravel road.
They both farm commercially, and envy my piles.....
One even offered me the use of his monstrous manure spreader, the other day.

Composting on a pallet bin scale will likely make faster, richer compost, just for the closer attention that it gets paid. But fields get spread quicker going big.
There is definitely a place for both.

Keep after those municipalities. Many of them would love to have a place to go with that stuff. The commercial composting seems to be very sporadic around the country.
With the budget cuts that are going on, I suspect they will be even more eager to have help from outside.


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## mudburn

Earlier in the week, I stopped and spoke with an Amish man who has a small sawmill at his dairy, inquiring about getting saw dust from him. He was happy to continue letting the gentleman who cleans up for him take care of it. When I got home, my wife said she had good news: a friend had dropped by to chat for a while, and she said that we could get saw dust at a small saw mill in Marrowbone. Well, I was busy working on a project Tuesday and Wednesday, so I couldn't get to the mill to see about acquiring saw dust until today.

This mill is only 10 miles away mostly across country roads. The guy in the loader said that I could help myself to the saw dust and take all I wanted, when I asked him about it. He didn't offer to load it, and I didn't ask him. As I show up for loads regularly, he may be more willing to load, but I'm not afraid of manual labor (working a shovel). Thankfully, I had taken the scoop shovel. I was able to back the truck right up to the pile to load it which didn't take long.

After unloading here at home, we (my good friend Danny was with me) hooked up the trailer and headed for another load.









Here is the pile of sawdust. It looks like the move it back further when it piles up too high.









There's another pile of chipped bark from their debarking machine. We loaded the trailer with this material and then filled the truck with saw dust.









Here's the trailer loaded. We used pitch forks for loading this material, and that worked pretty well.









The truck loaded with saw dust. We covered the load with the tarp so that not too much of it would blow away. Notice the dark material in the background: that's where they have pushed the saw dust and chipped bark in the past and let it sit. I'll have to ask about acquiring some of that good looking stuff, too. . .

When we got home, it was time to employ the "burrito-method" of unloading to get the material off of the trailer. It unloaded great.









The trailer load dumped right on top of the first load of saw dust.









Here's the carbon material we hauled today in two trips.

In the morning, I'm heading in the opposite direction to haul home some more material from the sale barn. They cleaned out some of the back lots today, and I want to get some of that back here. If that hauling goes well, I'll haul three or four loads of carbon material in the afternoon. Then, this Sunday, after a nice rest on the 7th day, I'll build a beautiful compost pile.

In my last post, I mentioned buying a new tractor. Here it is:










I've already seen how this machine can do the work of a 100 men with shovels and pitchforks, something not to be taken for granted. It's a great tool.

I must confess, I was quite giddy when I saw that beautiful pile of saw dust this morning. It was like looking at pure gold. I'm afraid I fell in love. . . :dance:

mudburn


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## Trisha in WA

I'm on love too mudburn! I have lots of nitrogen, but have to buy my carbon (wood shavings). Once we get moved, I hope to find a saw mill too.


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## Forerunner

Words fail me.

I've never had opportunity to witness the effects on another man of the compost bug biting as hard as it has me. Nor have I seen another man so quickly blessed with an abundance of perfect material and equipment to facilitate compost. This sickness of ours must be communicable. I hope it takes over the whole country.

Oh, and the sawdust is more valuable than you might realize.
I went to school with the two brothers that own the sawmill two miles up the road.
That mill is now one of, if not the largest mill operation in the state.
They used to give--and load-- all the sawdust I could use, for free.....and that was thousands of tons over the years......

Then the mega dairy came in 30 miles northeast of here. They began to use sawdust in earnest.....almost as much as I used to use. Only they set the price at 1500 bucks a semi load so as to ensure that they got it all.....
I am delighted to know that the mega dairies have figured out carbon. That speaks to me.
The brothers still give me opportunity to do some cleanup projects around the outskirts of the mill and get a few loads of sawdust, old and new, on occasion, but the leaf and wood chip supply in Canton has filled the carbon gap for me.
There are a few Amish mills 7-8 miles south of me, and I do occasionally pick up a load from them.

The sale barn here is paying 600 bucks a semi load for ground up pallets. The material is double ground and fluffy, but it all just goes to show that the country is waking up to the value of carbon.
Make use of it while you can and keep those boys cleaned OUT. 
Keep in mind the gold mine you've discovered for your own animal bedding and paths around the house during mud season.

Another thought..... I scooped pickup loads of sawdust out of that mill and others for years before I got my loader tractor. 
Once you get in shape, 15-20 minutes will throw a big load on a three quarter ton truck. A man doesn't want to surrender his whole edge to machinery.......


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## blooba

Forerunner said:


> Another thought..... I scooped pickup loads of sawdust out of that mill and others for years before I got my loader tractor.
> Once you get in shape, 15-20 minutes will throw a big load on a three quarter ton truck. A man doesn't want to surrender his whole edge to machinery.......


Yea, luckily sawdust isn't too heavy when dry. I am so jealous!!!!


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## mudburn

Hauled two more loads from the sawmill this morning. When we pulled up for the first load, the guy in the loader came over and said he didn't realize we were going to get this much and that I'd better talk to the boss in case he wants to charge me for it. So, I went in to the office (the boss wasn't there yesterday). He seemed very nice. He explained that he gets $300 per semi load for the stuff. They give it away if someone wants a little to put around their flowers and stuff. Figured I fell somewhere between those two. We loaded the truck and trailer and stopped in front of the office so he could figure what our load was worth. He looked at it and estimated it at a scoop and a half -- 30 scoops make a semi load. I think we had more than that, but that's the amount he was happy with. He said $15 per load, and if we load more than that don't worry about it.

Even at $15 per load, it's worth this. I'll be making several trips.

When speaking with the boss, I asked about the sawdust and chips that has rotted down to a rich blackness which had been pushed back behind the piles. He said that's from the last 4 or 5 years of pushing it back there and that I could have all of that I wanted for free. Before we left after the second load this morning, we talked with the guy working on their second loader (the boss was gone for lunch). He said they'd be able to load that material for me, that they would be glad to get rid of it. I'm practically salivating at the thought. . . 

It took about 250 scoop shovel scoops to fill the truck with sawdust. I figured there was 4-5 yards. The trailer, which we loaded mostly with the chipped bark (mixed with sawdust), held another 6-8 yards. It took about 45 minutes to load -- about 1.5 hour round trip. It's good to sweat, especially for such a good and profitable endeavor!

We've got a good pile to start with now. It's about time to build a pile, mixing the nitrogen rich sale barn cleanings and the sawdust/chips.

I hope to make a load or two from the sale barn this afternoon. The guy wasn't in this morning, and the material had a lot of hay mixed in and was wet and heavy -- not easy to load by hand. If he's not, I hope to be able to get a few loads on Sunday using my little Bobcat.

Wouldn't it be great if a composting epidemic broke out? I'll do what I can to infect some others.

mudburn


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## fishhead

mudburn,

If you need a source of almost free heat that will produce for decades build a pile of fresh sawdust with buried water line inside. Sawdust generate heat for at least 20 years with no inputs. I've dug into piles that were at least 20 years old and it burned my hands to the point I had to stop.


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## mudburn

fishhead said:


> mudburn,
> 
> If you need a source of almost free heat that will produce for decades build a pile of fresh sawdust with buried water line inside. Sawdust generate heat for at least 20 years with no inputs. I've dug into piles that were at least 20 years old and it burned my hands to the point I had to stop.


Hmmm, an interesting idea. I know it's possible to run water lines through compost piles to heat the water. I haven't planned on doing this, at least not yet. Currently, I'm building piles that are quite some distance from our house.

mudburn


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## mudburn

Well, the guy never showed up at the sale barn today. Yeah, I could've loaded by hand, but I decided to employ my time differently. I constructed a compost pile with material I've recently collected.

I used my loader tractor to spread some sawdust and wood chips on the ground in an area about 10 feet by 25 feet. Then, I alternated layers of manure-rich sale barn cleanings and more sawdust/wood chips until the pile was about 5 feet high.










My lovely wife and three of our children took a walk this evening so I could show off my work (I only spent about 1.5 hours this afternoon constructing it, some of that time becoming more efficient with the loader). Our two boys love playing on the piles of stuff. My older struck a pose:










I was going to try using the Bobcat to build some more, but, alas, the old battery gave up on me. So, I didn't get to. Maybe next week.

mudburn


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## misplaced

Does your wife take all your pictures? I feel a compost connection with her


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## mudburn

I thought I'd share a photo of the black gold at the sawmill that is free for the taking. I didn't take a picture of it specifically, but it can be seen in the background of the following photo I took yesterday:










It's 3, 4, or more feet deep and stretches behind the chip/sawdust pile and to the left and right. There are thousands of yards of the stuff. Some is broken down into a dirt-like consistency. Some still has the shapes of the chips on the top at least. It's very dark. If they can load it, I do believe I will bring several loads home. :nanner: It will take a while to make a dent in all that they have. Oh, for a greater hauling capacity. . . 

mudburn


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## mudburn

Rebel Lemming said:


> Does your wife take all your pictures? I feel a compost connection with her


Actually, she doesn't. I think she's intimidated by my camera. She is my biggest fan though and is extremely encouraging and excited about my composting efforts. Maybe I should get her a camera and let her take the photos. . .


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## fordson major

mudburn said:


> Actually, she doesn't. I think she's intimidated by my camera. She is my biggest fan though and is extremely encouraging and excited about my composting efforts. .


that is the best kinda wife!:thumb:


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## misplaced

mudburn said:


> Actually, she doesn't. I think she's intimidated by my camera. She is my biggest fan though and is extremely encouraging and excited about my composting efforts. Maybe I should get her a camera and let her take the photos. . .


That's sweet. It is a lot of fun though standing behind the camera snapping pictures of my mans passion 
She would probably enjoy it!


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## ChristieAcres

All I can say is...

I want a tractor, a truck that dumps, and for my DH to get bit by this bug...NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Okay, taking one small leap for womankind, a large leap for this little woman, and I am getting a truckload of horse manure dumped here:bouncy: I am done enduring this compost pile envy

Otherwise, my rabbit compost operation is going very well. The chicken manure/straw mix dumped under their hutches, with their additions, all compost scraps dumped under there, some occasional soil, straw, weeds to rot...


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## mudburn

Lorichristie,

Good for you in taking your small leap! You've been bitten by the bug, and it is contagious. So, if you keep taking leaps and doing what you can, your DH is bound to catch it sooner or later. If he's like me, you can't make him do it (I'm much more apt to dig my heels in when I feel pushed). Forerunner's posts served as motivation for me and I've begun my humble efforts at a time that was ripe. I knew materials were available, but I didn't have a vision of the possibilities. Forerunner came into my life at the right time by divine providence. So, there is hope for your DH, but since you are bitten, do what you can. No need for envy -- all beginnings are humble. 

mudburn


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## Forerunner

The composting passion is an easy place to justify sinking lots of energy into.
The real benefit will only be known as machinery and fuel become more and more financially and physically out of reach, and we find ourselves growing food for family and, possibly, community..... in soil that was clay and seeming mortar a few short years ago.
I am driven to make the absolute extreme best use of this equipment and diesel fuel while it's available. There is nothing more permanently valuable to man than the rebuilding of soil tilth and nutrient content. We literally have no idea what manner of health, mental clarity and physical strength we might be missing out on in this life due to the gross depletion of the value of the soil from which we eat.
I'd like for, at least, my grandchildren to know.

Mudburn, that old sawdust is the best stuff in the world for mixing with used animal bedding to make compost. It will break down much faster than the new, and has already absorbed a fair share of nitrogen. The sawmill here gave me thousands of tons of that stuff, right along with occasional fresh material. They still have piles of it that are "mine" when weather conditions permit.
You will be doing them a huge favor in taking it off their hands, as no one else seems to see the value in it. 

*pauses to shake head soberly in disbelief*

Wherever I go to collect the material that I compost, I approach the facility as though it were my own. I keep the piles as tidy as possible, load out in such a way as to facilitate good drainage, every time I wrap it up for a day.....and never leave them anything that could be viewed as a negative issue. In other words, I take responsibility for the appearance and functionality of each facility that provides me with material.
It costs me nothing more, and keeps the doors ever widening for future mutually beneficial interactions.


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## insocal

I was about to ask you to mail me some of your oh-so-fabulous compost but then i remembered I live in an apartment in the city and don't have a garden......sob.


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## Forerunner

Well, I would be delighted to send you a few quarts if you'd like.
You surely have a window or two where you could at least grow a tomato ?
maybe a sweet tater in a bucket ?


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## bloogrssgrl

I just wanted to leave a message thanking you for your detailed information.

Last year my hubby and I were fortunate enough to attend a workshop at the Rodale Farm and saw first hand their wonderful composting operation. We were so inspired!!!

And then the tractor died.

Sigh.

But, I do what I can with the meager hand tools I have and look forward to the day Little Chuggy (our tractor) is on the move again.

Here's a question for you. Ok to throw dog poo in the mix?


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## Forerunner

bloogrssgrl said:


> I just wanted to leave a message thanking you for your detailed information.
> 
> Last year my hubby and I were fortunate enough to attend a workshop at the Rodale Farm and saw first hand their wonderful composting operation. We were so inspired!!!
> 
> And then the tractor died.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> But, I do what I can with the meager hand tools I have and look forward to the day Little Chuggy (our tractor) is on the move again.
> 
> Here's a question for you. Ok to throw dog poo in the mix?


Greetings and, you are most welcome.

Did the Rodale folks mention Ehrenfried Pfeiffer ?

If you build a compost pole big enough to properly heat, you can throw any kind of animal waste in that pile. I recommend a pile the size of two healthy pick-up truck loads as a minimum for good heating.
Compost will routinely reach temps of 150 degrees F, and higher.
Pathogens die within a few short hours at 120F.


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## bloogrssgrl

Forerunner, I don't specifically recall the mention of the name but it was last year and it was a day long event. So it's entirely possible that it was mentioned but did not stick in my brain. I have to dig out my literature from the workshop - it's possible it might be in there as well.

Thanks for the scoop on the doo.


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## dk_40207

I was curious Forerunner do you use any of the biodynamic methods. I have seen you mention Ehrenfried Pfeiffer a couple of times and I know he did a lot of work with Rudolf Steiner. Just asking because i worked on a biodynamic farm for a couple of years. 
Derek


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## Pennsyltucky

I came across this article about mitigating climate change with organic farming systems today and couldn't help but share. Of particular interest, is the discussion of soil carbon storage. Here's an excerpt:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"According to Dr Christine Jones (2006), one of Australia&#8217;s leading experts on carbon sequestration: &#8216;Every tonne of carbon lost from soil adds 3.67 tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) gas to the atmosphere. Conversely, every 1 t/ha increase in soil organic carbon [OC] represents 3.67 tonnes of CO2 sequestered from the atmosphere and removed from the greenhouse gas equation.&#8217;

&#8216;For example, a 1% increase in organic carbon in the top 20 cm [8 inches] of soil represents a 24 t/ha increase in soil OC which equates to 88 t/ha of CO2 sequestered.&#8217;

Thus, a 100 hectare farm that had a 1% increase in organic matter would be removing 8,800,000 kgs of CO2 from the atmosphere. A million hectares = 88,000,000,000 kgs.

Burning 1 litre petrol produces 2.3 kg of CO2. Thus, a 1% increase in organic matter per hectare is equivalent to sequestering the carbon from 38,260 litres of petrol.

In the case of my car, it is equivalent to 1000 tanks of fuel. If I used one tank a week it is the equivalent of all the fuel I would use over 20 years. If as a farmer I can sequester 1% over 10 hectares it would be equivalent to removing the CO2 from the use of 200 years of fuel.

Another way of looking at it would be that 1 hectare equals the equivalent of 20 cars in a year; a million hectares equals the emission of 20 million cars per year.

These figures are ballpark figures because the variability of dynamic systems makes it virtually impossible to give precise numbers. These are rounded off to make them easy to understand, yet they are accurate enough to provide an understanding of the concepts."

Leu, Andre. 2009. Ameliorating the effects of climate change with organic systems. Journal of Organic Systems. Vol. 4 (1), 4-7.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The kicker is that most people never consider the soil as a great reservoir for carbon, but it actually contains 1580 gigatons. More than forests and the atmosphere combined. Just imagine if more folks took up extreme composting and returned waste(d) carbon back to the soil where it belongs. We'd have happy worms and a less bleak future for the grandkids. Where do the benefits of composting cease?


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## Forerunner

dk_40207 said:


> I was curious Forerunner do you use any of the biodynamic methods. I have seen you mention Ehrenfried Pfeiffer a couple of times and I know he did a lot of work with Rudolf Steiner. Just asking because i worked on a biodynamic farm for a couple of years.
> Derek


I have the books "Secret Life of Plants", and, "Secrets of the Soil"
both by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird...... and they went into some painful and fascinating detail addressing the benefits and formulas for those biodynamic preps you speak of. What they are doing, from what I can see, is isolating some specific and intensely beneficial strains of composting bacteria.
I wholly approve of the concept, but can't yet wrap my mind around the claims of extensive acre coverage with such small quantities of solution.
By that I may well be declaring my ignorance of soil microbiology, as well as any number of other sciences dealing with parts per million, etc.

What forever endeared my to Ehrenfried was his large scale municipal composting program that he had many large American cities interested in and _engaged_ in back in the 40s and 50s.
They were actually grinding the organic portion of municipal trash, i.e. paper, cardboard, restaurant and food wastes, industrial food processing by products, brush, grass, leaves, etc. and mixing all that with sewage sludge, then spraying the mix down with 60 different strains of bacteria. 
With the grinding and the extreme and diverse bacteria inoculation, they could produce a working compost that was ready to use in less than a week.:bouncy:

Stuff like that just makes my head spin.

"Rodale's Complete Book of Composting", original, thick and hardback edition, has a long and rich chapter (at least) devoted to Ehrenfried's effort and a testament to its success, right along with the dark and predictable reasons for it's demise.


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## Forerunner

Pennsyltucky said:


> I came across this article about mitigating climate change with organic farming systems today and couldn't help but share. Of particular interest, is the discussion of soil carbon storage. Here's an excerpt:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "According to Dr Christine Jones (2006), one of Australiaâs leading experts on carbon sequestration: âEvery tonne of carbon lost from soil adds 3.67 tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) gas to the atmosphere. Conversely, every 1 t/ha increase in soil organic carbon [OC] represents 3.67 tonnes of CO2 sequestered from the atmosphere and removed from the greenhouse gas equation.â
> 
> âFor example, a 1% increase in organic carbon in the top 20 cm [8 inches] of soil represents a 24 t/ha increase in soil OC which equates to 88 t/ha of CO2 sequestered.â
> 
> Thus, a 100 hectare farm that had a 1% increase in organic matter would be removing 8,800,000 kgs of CO2 from the atmosphere. A million hectares = 88,000,000,000 kgs.
> 
> Burning 1 litre petrol produces 2.3 kg of CO2. Thus, a 1% increase in organic matter per hectare is equivalent to sequestering the carbon from 38,260 litres of petrol.
> 
> In the case of my car, it is equivalent to 1000 tanks of fuel. If I used one tank a week it is the equivalent of all the fuel I would use over 20 years. If as a farmer I can sequester 1% over 10 hectares it would be equivalent to removing the CO2 from the use of 200 years of fuel.
> 
> Another way of looking at it would be that 1 hectare equals the equivalent of 20 cars in a year; a million hectares equals the emission of 20 million cars per year.
> 
> These figures are ballpark figures because the variability of dynamic systems makes it virtually impossible to give precise numbers. These are rounded off to make them easy to understand, yet they are accurate enough to provide an understanding of the concepts."
> 
> Leu, Andre. 2009. Ameliorating the effects of climate change with organic systems. Journal of Organic Systems. Vol. 4 (1), 4-7.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The kicker is that most people never consider the soil as a great reservoir for carbon, but it actually contains 1580 gigatons. More than forests and the atmosphere combined. Just imagine if more folks took up extreme composting and returned waste(d) carbon back to the soil where it belongs. We'd have happy worms and a less bleak future for the grandkids. Where do the benefits of composting cease?


Beautiful find, this.

I've often contemplated the hidden value in this undertaking, fully realizing the value of taking carbon out of the atmosphere. The other side is, for every pound of carbon we take out of the atmosphere, there is a correlating and likely quite substantial quantity of nitrogen that gets trapped in the soil, where it belongs, by that same carbon.
Now we're talking about a real increase in available oxygen percentages.
Imagine being born, growing up, falling in love, marrying, working and propagating in an outdoor oxygen bar, full time......

Makes me wonder what we're missing out on besides nutrition.

Now, with the above-referenced math and figures, it shouldn't be hard to figure out how many tons of carbon we are removing from the atmosphere per gallon of diesel we run through my dream tub grinder while we grind brush for compost rather than letting municipalities burn it all......


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## kabri

Wow, what a wonderful thread, my views of compost have just been hugely expanded!!!! Our biggest dilemma with our new land is how to get the giant rocks and boulders out of the planned garden areas before we start laying on the compost. Local guy said most are too big for a normal rock rake that he rents with his bobcat (we don't have a tractor yet, will have to rent equipment if we can find the right stuff) Our grading contractor broke up the ground with his giant backhoe, now we need to reduce the boulders so I can get the perennial vegetables and plants started! Any ideas?


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## kabri

Hi Rose, it's located at property we don't live at yet, so leaving some pigs there alone for up to several weeks would not work. I agree, it's a good idea, I'm just too impatient to wait until we are living there to get the garden going! The property is remote and no neighbors close. Most of the rocks 2 people could move, it's just the sheer volume that has my back hurting just thinking about it! I've moved some to the side as you did. DH objects to that method as it means lifting the rocks twice.


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## Forerunner

Having visited rockier regions (Michigan) and seeing the stone construction in some of the old homes and barns, not to mention the miles of stone "fence" surrounding many a field and pasture, I feel left out, living here in good old claybottoms Illinois.
Getting the rocks out may present a challenge, but I'd sure be making use of them, as Rose recommended.


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## Scomber

Kabri, you can move large rocks with a come-along and ladder type tire chains. Dig enough to get the chains around the rock and drag it out of the hole with the come along. You'll need an anchor to connect the other end of the cable to, but your car or a handy tree may do the trick. Unlike a simple log chain, a tire chain acts like a net and stays on the rock better.

Dan


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## fishhead

Landscapers or rock fireplace builders buy rocks around here. If you put them in wire mesh cylinders they make immovable corner posts for fencing too.


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## mudburn

No photos today, but I hauled more stuff. Brought in five loads from the sale barn before 1:00pm (~5 tons per load -- I'm trying to make you break a sweat to keep up, Forerunner). Then, after lunch, I hauled in another load from the sawmill -- that took two hours round trip because I had to load it by myself, and I loaded it full. Talked to the guy with the loader who was moving logs around, and he said there's a horse farm which has a mountain of horse manure and sawdust bedding to give away not far from here. That's something to check into.

After unloading the sawdust, I jumped in the pond to rinse off. The water was a little cool, but not bad. First time I've been in it (built it last summer). Of course, the younguns had to get wet, too.  Then, I disked the corn field and spent a few minutes building a compost pile. It's been a good day, and the weather has been beautiful.

I'll haul another load of sawdust in the morning and then work in the garden the rest of the day. I'm dreaming of increased fertility for our land. . . :happy:

mudburn


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## Forerunner

A cold pond to jump into come days end, even!!:bouncy:

We must be soul mates.

We only made two trips today. The first probably grossed 15 tons, wood chips and composted leaves from Canton.... the second probably grossed 25 tons--straight, wet manure from the Fairview sale barn.
We'd have done more, but I took the time to hook up and disc, then harrow up an acre for potatoes, tomatoes, peppers and cabbages....not necessarily to go in in that order. We'll be setting out about 300 pounds of seed potatoes early in the a.m.

We've been hauling fairly steady since February, and are just now catching up with the flow of organic matter around the country, such was the long, wet, frozen winter.
Between the two fields I'm piling in, there are over 1000 tons accumulation, thus far..... and I've yet to spread the two big piles that we kicked up last year. Having lost the manure spreader and being thus demoted to spreading compost with the bulldozer, it looks like it's gunna go on pretty thick.


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## Grandmotherbear

I do have a question about your disdain for burning. Here in S FL, we HAVE to burn strangler figs, ficus, brazillian pepper, air potato, etc as if we don't it just sprouts in the compost piles. I am NEVER gonna have a dumptruck size pile, the neighbors would lynch me. I do carry the charcoal and ashes to the compost heap the day after burning. approx 5 feet long x 3 feet wide by 3 feet high) Isn't that better than leaving noxious vegetationfor the county to haul off??That might sprout and cause even more problems?
Also we have algae blooms in the lake every year. Probably has more to do with the homeowners around the lake over fertilizing than the dairy 3 miles up the creek. For years I have been using pool rakes (think fine mesh bags) to scoop the algae - I used to just dump it on the lawn, or around trees but last year I decided to add it to the compost pile. Obviously, I wound up with too much n for my carbon. My new source of carbon is cardboard boxes. I flatten them before throwing them on the heap and pick out the strapping tape when I find it after the cardboard rots. I work in healthcare and that industry generates a LOT of cardboard boxes.

When my healthcare employer had its own shredder I used to bring home bags of shreeded paper for the composter- and every single person there, none of whom were composters or even gardeners, warned me that I shouldn't use it for composting as the paper might be toxic. I never could figure that one out. If you were handling it with bare hands, how could it be toxic?:shrug:
The state of Florida poisons water weeds every year- massive poisonings- they usually cause fish kills as the rotting, poisoned weeds suck up oxygen for decomposition. I would love to figure out a way to simply HARVEST that vegetation for composting. However, it is illegal to even transport most water weeds- Florida is that scared about nuisance vegetation spreading!

My dad, back in the 50s, made regular visits to the sludge plant for free fertilizer. I have been talking to Grandfatherbear about trying to locate a sludge source and /or talk to the dairy about a few trunkfuls of cow poop for the pile- but I am concerned about the bovine hormones given to milkers, since as noted before, I will never have a hot enough mound to really do serious chemical decomposition. Also, since every compost source I have read stresses no meat or milk or milk products we have been assiduous about keeping them out of our heap. I think I will finely hand chop bad meats and stuff and bury them from now on (we discovered our compact travel freezer had come unplugged when we returned from a long weekend and the defrosted stuff went into the trash because it was meat- and fish. Wish I had read your post BEFORE that unfortunate event)

Well, would love to hear your thoughts on charcoal/algae/cardboard et al. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## Forerunner

Well, nothing like a challenge, Grandmotherbear.

The cardboard idea is very good.
The paper, composted, will be fine, I am certain.
The noxious plants you mention, I'd still bury a little deeper in the pile and make them rot.... when they sprout, pull the sprout and bury it.
Composted, even slow and a little cooler, that cattle manure will be ok, even with a little hormone. You will get some heat, even in a half pickup truck-sized pile, if it's blended right and has the right moisture content. Think of a somewhat wrung out sponge.
You mention the disapproving neighbors, and then mention finding a source of sludge.
Now that has me confused.:shocked:

The ash that you do produce should be spread where it's most needed, directly. Ashes tend to react with nitrogen, driving the latter off into the atmosphere where it be lost to our good purposes.
That algae might not be so N imbalanced if you let it dry a bit before composting, but if you mix it with your cardboard and hopefully more paper shavings, it will break down just fine.

Did that catch everything ?


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## Grandmotherbear

I've been covering the kitchen waste with cardboard, and planned to hide any manure- human or animal-under cardboard also...


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## Forerunner

I would mix both of those commodities well with more cardboard or shredded paper, and then cover the whole pile with cardboard.
Have you got any organic minded friends with land a little farther out where a bit of a community pile could be constructed ?


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## fordson major

you got lotsa soul mates here forerunner!! (and all of ewes can keep yer eyes offa me rocks!!) taking a sows ear and turning it into a silk purse is a gift!! i have been gathering up the rocks out of fields and building a stone wall around the farm house yard here! it has been helping to rectify the time i used to put into spreading liquid gold on fields! new garden area is by our pond which our farm is named after shepherds spring! have to deepen it some more but also have a teapot full of manure tea (300,000 gals!) ready for application!


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## misplaced

mudburn said:


> I'm trying to make you break a sweat to keep up, Forerunner.
> 
> mudburn



You should have seen him yesterday at the landscape dump.
The big smile on his face as he was loading up the wagons... the sun beating on his already burnt shoulders and forehead... The joy you could see oozing from his pours as he was "tidying" up the place....
I rarely get the opportunity to ride along with him anymore, but I thoroughly enjoy watching him when I do. I didn't bring my camera because I thought he was just going to drop me off in town while he went to the dump... but he LET me go with him to pick garbage out of the piles... I'm so lucky


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## CarolynRenee

Soulmate: When two people spy each other across a steaming pile of compost & know in their hearts, "I have found him/her".


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## mudburn

Rebel Lemming said:


> ... but he LET me go with him to pick garbage out of the piles... I'm so lucky


You are a blessed woman, indeed! And, I can imagine the smile he had and the joy oozing from his pores. There is something about gathering material for compost that is exciting.


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## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> A cold pond to jump into come days end, even!!:bouncy:
> 
> We must be soul mates.
> 
> We only made two trips today. The first probably grossed 15 tons, wood chips and composted leaves from Canton.... the second probably grossed 25 tons--straight, wet manure from the Fairview sale barn.


I guess I'm going to have to start getting up earlier and increase my hauling capacity if I'm going to force you to break a sweat to keep up. It's a goal to work toward, though.

I was cognizant of your penchant for a cold pond at days end when I jumped in yesterday. The water is quite deep off the end of the dock (which still needs planks put on it), making a fine immersion point. Perhaps, someday you may try it out yourself.

mudburn


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## misplaced

mudburn said:


> You are a blessed woman, indeed! And, I can imagine the smile he had and the joy oozing from his pores. There is something about gathering material for compost that is exciting.


you failed to notice my sarcasm :indif:

I do enjoy watching him work and riding with him on the tractor.
But I would have rather him drop me off in town. 
He made up for it yesterday.. almost


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## mudburn

Rebel Lemming said:


> you failed to notice my sarcasm :indif:


No, I ignored your sarcasm, not wanting to believe that you weren't as excited as any normal person (like your husband) would be when it comes to acquiring composting materials. I was thinking how noble of him to let you share in the experience. :grin:

mudburn


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## misplaced

Well in my defense I do enjoy _watching_ him enjoy it


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## mudburn

I want to share some photos of my compost piles. These are evidence of what can happen in a short amount of time with a little motivation and determination. My venture into extreme composting began about a month and a half ago, as hard to believe as that is. Forerunner's composting malady must be contagious. :shocked:

Okay, here are the photos:


This is a view toward my first two compost piles (with a small mound of dirt and compost in front).











This is my first pile. I finished it earlier this week. Eventually, this one and my second pile will be joined as one.











My second pile -- put together today. Some of the material was hauled three weeks ago. I hauled in 20 tons from the sale barn for this pile today. There was a lot of sawdust in some of the sale barn cleanings, allowing me to have a small stockpile of sawdust left (on the right side of the pile in this view).











My third pile, also built today from previously hauled materials and 5 tons I hauled today.










Aren't they gorgeous? :bouncy::banana02:

mudburn


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## fishhead

In this area there used to be lots of resorts and a person could have easily picked up 1,000 lbs of fish cleanings each week all summer long. They were paying garbage haulers to take it to the landfill. Taxes have driven most of the resorts out of business now.

I see that a logger has been stockpiling wood chips on his land and this morning I saw steam rising from the piles. He's been bulldozing the piles so I'm not sure what he's intending on doing with them.

My own pile grew by 1,000 lbs when I bought a bale of moldy hay. To that I added 100 lbs of rotten buffalo fish from one of my ponds. It was puffing steam and I thought it could be smoke so I hosed it down with water from my septic tank. Now it's putting out a steady stream of steam so I guess it wasn't smoke.


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## Forerunner

I love the smell of a vigorously steaming compost pile in the morning.


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## fishhead

What's the yield for different stocks? Will that 1,000 lb bail yield 500 lbs or 1/4 the volume?

Hay? Straw? Leaves? Bedding?


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## Forerunner

There are a lot of variables that figure in to how much finished material one might end up with from each type of raw material.
I have read that the chief loss that results in such shrinkage in a compost pile is hydrogen...... Now that ought to tell us a few things.
One, methane being four hydrogens to one carbon atom..... we might be losing a lot of methane. The loss may also stem form a reaction that converts the water in a pile to oxygen (which the thermophilic microbes need to function) and hydrogen.....which may take us right back to losing methane.

I prefer to haul material that is only lightly moist. There's no point hauling a lot of heavy water, unless there is no choice. Around here, rainfall certainly makes up for any moisture deficiency that may exist in my piles upon their initial construction. If it gets too dry, I'll let piles of unconsolidated raw material sit until it does rain, soaking up everything, and then construct the pile.

The finer the material you start with, say sawdust instead of straw, the less shrinkage there will be. Wood products are more dense than lighter vegetation. Wet grass clippings will really condense just due to moisture loss.
Wet leaves tend to just about hold their own. A dry leaf pile will shrink considerably as it takes on moisture and decomposes.

As far as practicality, I don't concern myself much with shrinkage.
I just fill my bins and keep adding new material until the pile quits shrinking and then let it cook to finish.
The bigger field piles just keep getting added to.

If I recall correctly, I've read somewhere that a pile will lose 30-40% of it's mass as it decomposes. 

Does that rambling mess answer your question ? :bouncy:


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## fishhead

Sort of. 

I thought composting didn't produce methane? I don't see how a pile could have enough oxygen to stay aerobic unless the material gives off oxygen as it decomposes. Once it goes anaerobic it should be producing methane.


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## Forerunner

That has been a bit of a mystery to me, as well--the oxygen requirement.
The books say to pile the stuff with some bulkier material mixed it to "trap oxygen". Wood chips, straw, corn stalks, etc. come to mind.
The books also say to construct the piles in long rows, 5-6 feet high and 10-12 feet wide at the base. This supposedly facilitates air flow, keeping the piles a little smaller so they don't self compress.

Then there was Jean Paine, the French composter who built massive piles in a large, circular fashion. I'm not sure how tall he went, but I know he left his piles undisturbed for up to at least 18 months as he spoke of heating waterlines inside those piles for up to that long. It also spoke of the rich finished product that he came up with. 
My piles range in size from my 20 yard or so bins to 50 semi truckloads.
I pile the stuff as high as I can with the loader, often reaching twelve feet or better. I do make an effort to blend the piles with attention to the carbon/nitrogen ratios and adequate moisture, but I don't turn a pile unless I need to move one.
My material comes out black. The piles get and stay hot for months on end....and I don't seem to be lacking oxygen.
As for the creation of methane in an otherwise aerobic pile, I don't know.
The books say the pile shrinks due to hydrogen loss, and that stuff has to leave in some form or another. Methane makes the most sense to me.
Maybe it's created down deeper where there is a slight oxygen shortage created over time ?


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## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> I love the smell of a vigorously steaming compost pile in the morning.


Breath deeply!!:buds:




























mudburn


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## fishhead

Here's a pretty thorough site on compositing.

http://www.cyber-north.com/gardening/compost.html


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## michelleIL

mudburn said:


> Breath deeply!!:buds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mudburn



A very good start!


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## Forerunner

Getting a pile to steam like that in Kentucky certainly is impressive.

Most of mine are to the point that I'd have to break into them to get steam.

My loader tractor/wagon hauler fouled an injector, and I'm suffering some serious withdrawal..... hasn't even been a week.....


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## tom j

I do make an effort to blend the piles with attention to the carbon/nitrogen ratios and adequate moisture, 
what do you call cardon ????? wood chips ?? Or ???


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## Forerunner

Carbon is basically any woody vegetable matter, to keep it simple.

Wood chips are good if you've got the time for them to break down.
Sawdust is quicker, and absorbs more moisture and nitrogen.
Straw is good, and straw is said to retain more trapped oxygen, which will benefit the pile as time goes on.
Cardboard and paper make good carbon sources.
Peanut shells, dry grass clippings and weeds, corn cobs, dry leaves.....
I say dry because some of these materials contain a good bit of nitrogen in their fresh state, especially grass clippings.


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## Forerunner

Hillbilly composters unite.










The movement has begun.

Darryl and his family came to visit us for the weekend and we hit it straight off.
He didn't really come across as a "mudburn" in person......

His passion is comparable to mine and he is quickly gearing up to be able to go full time.


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## mudburn

MB Farm said:


> He looks way to clean! LOL
> 
> Glad you had a good visit.
> 
> MB


Yeah, I do look way too clean in that photo. I had my nice work clothes on (formal attire for Tim) for the trip home.

It was awesome to spend a few days at the Mecca of Compost with such gracious hosts. I'm so glad we made the pilgrimage to the Forerunner homestead.

Darryl (aka mudburn)


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## mudburn

We arrived home Tuesday evening from a GREAT visit with my brother, Forerunner, and his family. Yesterday, I had a few things to work on, but the urge to haul compost material was strong upon me. So, I acquired the necessary materials to build a tailgate for the new truck. Construction of said tailgate began immediately and was finished (except for paint) this morning. Ain't she a beauty?










As soon as I finished the tailgate and checked the rear end shifter, I set off to town in hopes of bringing home a nice load of material from the sale barn. I was not disappointed.










Unloading was easy.



















Empty in a matter of minutes (except for the 2x6 my younger boy threw in the back after removing it from the material -- whatta boy!).










I was very pleased with the amount -- at least twice as much as I can haul with my other truck and trailer, and I haven't even built the side boards yet.










There's one more load to haul after lunch, but I'm wishing there was more. . .

mudburn


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Jenkins writes in his humanure hand book that turning was found to be un-nessacary as it only was found to elivate the oxigen levels for a few hours and caused more disturbance to the heat than was benificial 

so i think you may be on to somthing with the proccess releasing the H form its bonds to carbon 


a side note a friend was telling me that as a test back at his day with Kuhn they tested putting a dead cow a rotten round bale and some spoiled silage in a vertical feed mixer then shot it out into a wind row he said in about a month it was fully digested looked like perfect compost 

may be an idea that mechanicaly breaking down and mixing could yeild compost in very short amount of time as well as enabeling you to go bigger yet if piles can be costructed in the round fashion and th eingredients pre mixed in proper proprtions then brought in to place with an elevator like pulverised dirt is at an excavation site the excavator could be used to measure and drop the ingreideints that were trucked in and the piles could be small mountains it could be interesting research 

for the even larger scale witch would be the eventuality that is going to come as i was talking to a freind who works for a company that makes resturan supplies he siad they are now hot stamping 50 gallon commetial garbage cans that say compost for the california market. think a hole city collecting all compostable materials possably thousands if tons a week now think into the possability of that including the slury that would have been drilled into the feilds form the sewage treatment plant 

then all of that being spread on a feilds if a feilds was taken out of crop rotation for a year and used for mountains of comost it could potentialy gain a 6 inch layer of compost along with many of it's neighbors thinsk of the growing possabilities of that.


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## Forerunner

Ehrenfried Pfeiffer ground the material at the large municipal operations, twice.
In the process, he sprayed the material down with a blend of 60 different strains of bacteria. With the very small finished grind and the bacterial overload, plus he did turn the stuff every day.....he had finished compost in three days.

That is, finished enough to spread on local fields to great benefit.


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## Forerunner

Extreme composting is not without extreme cost and setback.

A couple weeks ago, I was on the way home from the sale barn and fouled an injector in the 3010. Got the injectors sent off and cleaned up, reinstalled and still having horsepower loss issues. 

This morning, on the way to the Canton yard waste dump, the valve for the number six cylinder in the 4630 lost some linkage integrity. We're going to haul that tractor home tomorrow and tie into it. The hydraulic pump is leaking as well, so we're going to rebuild that while we've got the hood off.

This commitment has cost an incredible amount.
If it weren't for the homesteading lifestyle and living very simply, I'd not be able to afford to do nearly as much composting as I do.
All of the money generated by scrap metal sales or the operating of the heavy equipment goes into diesel fuel, parts, repairs and equipment upgrades. 
Most would starve on what little is left over when those needs are met.


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## katy

For a serious nightmare, think about paying a mechanic 35.00 to 85.00 an hour for all your repairs on top of the parts you still have to purchase. OUCH !!! Then a welder's fee, don't know the numbers, but I know enough to know how blessed the two of you are to be able to do your own work / renovation. Nice tailgate Mudburn.

Congratulations to you both.


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## willow_girl

I thought of this thread today as I was working in some raised beds I made 1-2 years ago by forking cow manure and dirty bedding (hay, straw and sawdust) into 2'x3'x6' mounds. The mounds lost about half their height during the decomposition process; I'd guess they're about a foot high now. They now are made up of rich black dirt -- the original materials are indistinguishable. I built the mounds narrow enough that I can work from either side without having to step in or on them, so the soil has never been compacted. Even taprooted weeds like dandelion and dock come up easily. When I want to plant something in these mounds, I just scratch out a hole with my hand! Needless to say, everything planted in these beds grows like crazy.

Compost is a beautiful thing!


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## Forerunner

I do enjoy the ease with which those supposedly "tough" weeds pull out of this black looseness. All the books say that you just can't pull dock out of the ground without breaking off the root.......:yawn:


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## willow_girl

Yep! If I don't have a digging stick handy, I just scratch 'em out with my bare hands. 

Also (not to derail your thread, Forerunner) but people shouldn't be discouraged if they don't have a tractor and dump trailer to do EXTREME composting! You can do a lot with just a wheelbarrow and pitchfork, especially if you have critters and the access to manure and bedding that goes with them!

I put a tarp in the bed of my Ranger and use it to haul manure where I can, but I've also developed some areas that are inaccessible even by a wheelbarrow (for instance, because of steps). So I have to move my materials in by way of 5-gallon buckets. I only fill them about 3/4 full if the materials are 'wet,' like fresh manure -- I estimate they weigh 20-30 lbs. each, and that way I can carry one in each hand without killing myself. LOL! I estimate it takes about 40 of these buckets to fill a 4x8 raised bed made of 2x6 lumber. (I always heap it up in the beginning as it will sink due to decomposition.) 

When I moved here, a 15x20 area in front of the trailer had been covered in landscape fabric and pea gravel ... I pulled all that up and put about a foot of fresh manure and bedding atop it (excepting the walkways) one 5-gallon bucket at a time! We're talking hundreds of buckets ... but now I have 6" of black compost topsoil, that's my flower garden and it does wonderfully. 

An even easier way to go about things is to pile the manure and bedding right in the barnyard and let it work down for a season before moving it. A lot of the moisture will go out, which makes moving it MUCH easier! (Completely finished compost is unbelievably light.)

My unimproved soil is so poor (clay) and the excavation done on the property by the previous owners compacted the ground, totally removed the topsoil from some areas, and created drainage problems to such a degree that I don't even bother attempting to plant at grade anymore ... raised beds filled with compost are the only way to go around here!


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## Forerunner

Why, I hardly see that as a derailment. 

There's not a member of this compost crew that doesn't have reinforced regularly the _extreme_ value of a five gallon bucket.

I wholly concur that manual labor is priceless.

I also agree about letting material compost as close to the stall as possible.
Finished compost is a joy to load up, carry and spread, compared to raw stall cleanings.

The trucks, tractors and trailers are just for those of us who have them, for whom it would be a shame to let them sit idle while the world goes to waste around us.


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## TheMartianChick

I pretty much use the method employed by Willow_girl. I live in the city but I have about 3/4 of an acre. With the manure produced by the chickens and quail, fireplace ashes, weeds and all of the leaves that come off of the trees in the autumn, we end up with a lot of compostables over the course of a year. When we first bought our house 17 years ago, the soil was so bad that grass wouldn't grow. Now we grow a lot of flowers and vegetables, thanks to the compost pile. I use the ocassional bucket but mostly use the wheelbarrow to get it to where it needs to be. My neighbors probably wouldn't appreciate it if I started importing the raw ingredients by the truckload, anyway!


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## Forerunner

Neighbors, anyhow.:indif:


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## fishhead

I just can't see that there's enough oxygen in the space between the compost particles to store enough oxygen. If composting requires oxygen and gives off hydrogen I wonder if some bacteria isn't breaking the H-O-H water molecule apart for the oxygen and releasing the H2 molecule just like in electrolysis. 

AND......if that's the case I wonder if there isn't a way to capture the hydrogen for use as a fuel.


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## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> Extreme composting is not without extreme cost and setback.


Indeed! Today was an example for me. I set off this morning about 9:00 after finishing some things at home and airing up the "new" tires on the truck. I was headed to the sawmill for a load of sawdust. About three miles from home, the engine started running rough and losing power. I figured the fuel filter was clogged (I should have changed both previously, but, alas, I didn't). After turning around to head back home, it became apparent that I wasn't going to make it all the way. A likely place to park the truck presented itself, of which I gladly availed myself. It was a short walk across lovely green fields and trees along the old, unmaintained county road to home.

From this point it seemed to be a comedy of errors, but I know that it was in Greater hands than mine (for I asked). Seven hours later, I was able to bring the truck home with the engine once again running well. It wasn't too expensive in terms of money, just time. I accomplished nothing I had intended after 9:00am except for splitting a little firewood for the cookstove.

I did discover that my tractor cannot pull the truck very well when its brakes are engaged after the air pressure falls. :hrm:

mudburn


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## Forerunner

Et tu, BruteÂ´?:sob:


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## Pennsyltucky

Fishhead, 

That organic matter will hold quite a bit more O2 than you'd think. Organic soils with organic matter content higher than ~20% often have porosity greater than 60%, and up to 80-95%. That's quite a high volume that can be occupied by moisture and atmosphere. When oxygen does get used up by the process of decomposition, bacteria begin to use other elements as electron acceptors. Hydrogen is at the very bottom of this list, meaning the production of hydrogen gas is highly unlikely in all but the most extremely anaerobic environments. Here's a list below of the microbes preference for electron acceptors, with the most preferred at the top.

1/4 O2 + H+ + e- --> 1/2 H2O
1/5 NO3- + 6/5 H+ + e- --> 1/10 N2 + 3/5 H2O
1/2 MnO2 + 2H+ + e- --> 1/2 Mn2+ + H2O
Fe(OH)3 + 3H+ + e- --> Fe2+ + 3 H2O
FeOOH + 3H+ + e- --> Fe2+ + 2 H2O
1/2 Fe2O3 + 3H + e- --> Fe2+ 3/2 H2O
1/8 SO4 + 5/4 H+ + e- --> 1/8 H2S + 1/2 H2O
1/8 CO2 + H+ + e- = 1/8 CH4 + 1/4 H2O
H+ + e- = 1/2 H2

Basically, this mess above shows the molecule used as an electron acceptor on the left, and the product on the right. Good, aerobic decomposition uses O2 and produces water. As the O2 is used up, our microbes begin to use nitrate, then manganese, then iron, then sulfate, then carbon dioxide, and finally hydrogen. Soo, unless everything above hydrogen has been reduced, the odds of producing H2 in appreciable quantities is quite low. The cost required to achieve such EXTREME anaerobiosis is quite high. I'm no expert, and I'm sure other can chime in here, but I know that research institutions have spent hundreds of thousands of $$$ to develop small scale digesters to convert waste to acetic acid to methane. Just my 2 cents.


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## fishhead

Thanks. I figured that if was easy someone would be doing it already.

I guess that's why you don't want the pile too wet or you'll fill up the pores with water and replace the O2.


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## Forerunner

Jean Paine buried tanks in his hot piles of vegetable matter, containing the same vegetable matter, the heat from the piles keeping the contents of the tanks at a fairly constant 95ishF.......and drew his methane from those tanks.
The temps would have climbed considerably higher, but he was running water through plastic pipe coiled around those tanks and heating his house and water supply.....

Now, given the extreme measures and quantities of material which are available to the obsessed composter, it would definitely be worth while (if the funds/resources were available) to pour the concrete or bury the large tanks and gear up for major methane production. The semi-finished sludge makes fantastic compost if mixed with carbon.
Nothing lost. A lot more gained. No extra effort in the accumulating.

Now if there was only time and strong enough incentive.


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## Forerunner

I actually ran out of space in the near-acre patch that hosts my currently aging compost pile.

Here are the new piles, up and coming.
Also pictured is the result of my virgin three-wagon voyage to Canton's yard waste. I kind of know now what it's like to be an engineer in a train locomotive.
You don't get in a hurry.
I made the 17 mile trip during a lull in daily traffic, right after the three o'clock prison shift gets off and just before the 4-4:30 quitting bell.
I was loading up while evening traffic was heavy going home and made my return trip around 6 p.m. It was peaceful.
I wouldn't try hauling three like this just any time, but the occasional super high efficiency/high production trip is certainly a joy to be anticipated.

The 4630, sporting roughly 150 horses, didn't even ask me to downshift on the big hill coming home. I've simply GOT to get on that tandem (or triple) axle dump I've been contemplating. I feel like I'm wasting fuel with the tinker toy rig I pull now. 





































When I get the valve fixed in that 4630.....it's gunna get ugly.:heh:


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## MOgal

Forerunner said: "When I get the valve fixed in that 4630.....it's gunna get ugly." 


The difference in men and boys.....

I do honor your composting efforts, Forerunner and Mudburn. I've just gotten a kick out of watching how your machinery keeps getting bigger and bigger and.....


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## Forerunner

*clears throat, hoping to sound a bit more authoritative*

In my defense...... my equipment is actually staying the same size.
I just keep seeing piles of resources laying around that can be converted into net compost hauled in (i.e. more diesel, another wagon or two, some more spare tires, etc.).....and I just can't help myself from making the conversion.:bored:

No therapy groups will accept me.:sob:

Now Mudburn, on the other hand, is just getting geared up to speed.
He, too, saw multiple static piles of accumulated resources in various forms
lying about his spread, and sought merely to make the honorable conversion to compost, as well. 
Honestly, did you expect the man to haul hundreds of tons of compost in a pickup truck for any duration of time and maintain sanity?

Where's the mercy ?


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## MOgal

No need to look for mercy. I love what you are doing, wish more people would compost on whatever level they can. I'm not working away from home this spring but in years past, I was chided for providing a clean covered bucket every day in our kitchen area to collect coffee grounds and folks' lunch leftovers for my compost piles. You are just doing what I did on a much higher level. Good job, guys. I just couldn't resist a little teasing when I saw your "wagon train."


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## Tiempo

MB Farm said:


> *I think you got it :happy:*
> 
> But what does peeing on your compost do for the compost? :hrm:
> 
> Rose


I can't begin to tell you how relieved I am to be informed that FR was talking about peeing.

 ound:


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## Forerunner

:indif:


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## mudburn

Forerunner, your wagon train is really something! I know how it feels to haul in a good load of composting material. So, I can imagine the satisfaction you felt when pulling in with several extra tons. I can't wait to see your tandem- or tri-axle trailer become reality. When that happens, I'm afraid I'll have no choice but to increase the size of my machinery just to try to keep up. :duel: 

You do provide me with great motivation via a healthy competition, for what more noble pursuit could there be?


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## naturelover

Forerunner, I'm coming late into the topic but wanted to address this comment you made last month when you posted the pictures of the earthworms:




> The other day, I was out digging around in the piles here close to the house, in the concrete bins. The red wrigglers were everywhere.
> On a whim, I decided to take the cam out to the two big piles that I posted a few pics of the last go 'round. I kicked around in there, and sure enough....
> Now those piles are sitting on fill..... concrete, bricks and sand first, then several feet of sandy clay. I don't know of any source of organic materials that I've drawn from in constructing those piles that would have contained red wrigglers or any other variety of earthworm. The material is always either too fresh or too rich for them.
> *The piles are roughly a year old*, and the worms are absolutely _everywhere_. Even if I had knowingly imported a five gallon bucket of breeding stock, I would still be absolutely amazed at how fast they had taken over the piles. As it is, I am dumbfounded. *Where do they come from ?*
> *How do they multiply and spread so fast ?* These piles are still quite hot in the center, *but the older portions and the outer shell are all completely overrun with these incredible, slimy soil builders*.


Earthworms will make mass migrations above ground at night, sometimes twice a year, to places that attract them through their sense organs. They have specialized chemoreceptors or sense organs a.k.a. taste or smell receptors which react to chemical stimuli from long distances away. Their migrations are not usually noticeable when they're on soil/grass but if you're in a location where there is a lot of concrete or flat rock they are more visible as they will crawl across and up to get to where they want to go. They can move faster above ground than below ground and can actually crawl up flat vertical surfaces and they can cover a lot of distance in a single night. 

I've observed this phenomenon of their mass migrations during spring and autumn, crawling across 5 acres of concrete slabs and up and over concrete walls to get to big compost piles contained within. They migrated away from the strawberry and blueberry fields during the rainy seasons, moreso in late autumn than in spring. I've gone out with a flashlight late at nights and watched them as a seething mass as they migrated away from the fields across the concrete pavement and up the walls to the compost. I've also seen them doing this in the city, crossing sidewalks, streets and asphalt alleys and going up curbs and stone garden walls to get to rich lawns, gardens and compost piles.

You might not have imported any worms to your piles in the concrete bins but the migrating worms would have found their own way there from other parts of your property if their receptors were telling them it was a good place to go.

.


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## fishhead

That's interesting. I've always assumed worms were escaping flooded tunnels when I see them after a rain. There was a thread about worm raising and one worm raiser told of watching his worms migrate out of the beds.

More than once I've had worms land on my bare arm while hiking. I have no idea how they could get there unless they fell from a tree or were flipped into the air somehow as I walked. Hitchhiking worms may be another way they move large distances.


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## Our Little Farm

All of our children love the compost pile for stealing worms when fishing.


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## Forerunner

Thank you, Naturelover. 

That little exposeÂ´ explained it all.
I've seen evidence of most of what you described, but never did before connect all the dots.

My boys are rather snobbish about their fishing worms. 
Gotta be those fat nightcrawlers, with them.
My red wrigglers just aren't big enough.:bored:


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## Sarabeth

All I can say is WOW!! This is the most fascinating thread I have EVER read! I don't even have a compost pile.....yet. But, in reading all of this and sharing with my husband, he is now intrigued by the idea of heating water with compost. If you were doing this, how would you go about it? We are going to be building a house starting this summer, and my dh is very intrigued by this and wants to implement it in the future. 

You know, it only takes one person to influence someone...good job Forerunner!

I have long followed Lori's blog, and find all of your endeavors quite fascinating. You are living the dream many of us only dream of...


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## Forerunner

Thank you, Sarabeth.

Before I start talking about things where I have little experience, have your husband read up on Jean Pain, the French composter/water and house heater of the 60s and 70s. His ideas make up a major portion of what inspired me.

The Mother Earth magazines did a couple articles on him.....I think it was issues 60-61, if memory serves me correctly.

You can do a web search and come up with a lot of info on the man.


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## naturelover

Sorry Forerunner, I'm not trying to hijack your thread into a topic about worms, it's just that worms and compost go hand in hand, so very important to each other and I think the information about migrating worms is relevant for people who are into composting to know about this.



fishhead said:


> That's interesting. I've always assumed worms were escaping flooded tunnels when I see them after a rain. There was a thread about worm raising and one worm raiser told of watching his worms migrate out of the beds.
> 
> More than once I've had worms land on my bare arm while hiking. I have no idea how they could get there unless they fell from a tree or were flipped into the air somehow as I walked. Hitchhiking worms may be another way they move large distances.


Fishhead, they will escape from flooding tunnels too, but migrating when it's raining (or when there's a heavy night dew on the ground) is advantageous to them. It will keep them hydrated and their skin wet and clean, plus the water allows them to traverse sand and climb wet vertical surfaces via surface tension of the water. Travelling above ground at night is faster and safer since there's less birds to prey on them and migrating mostly during wet autumn would be akin to birds travelling south to warmer climes for the winter. They can sense the heat and wonderful food smells from the compost heaps which represent a luxurious warm winter home where there is less risk of them freezing and it wouldn't be necessary for them to go into winter hibernation. They can ball up and breed over winter in a compost pile. 

I too have had earthworms drop on me out of wet trees a few times but that is typical of this area, we don't call it a rain forest for no reason. :rainprf: 

I should mention here, the first time I noticed earthworms migrating was after my ducks alerted me one night. The ducks were very restless and clamoring to get out of their night pen to go after something on the ground that they were watching. I let them out thinking it must be slugs they were eyeing and they all went scuttling off to gobble up masses of worms that were all headed for the compost piles. Ducks do hunt at night especially for slugs and worms so if you have ducks and they get restless one night, go check the ground for migrating worms if you want to collect some up for your garden and compost pile (or as a treat for your ducks or fish). 

.


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## farmerbrian

This is indeed a motivating thread. Shame it took me 10 pages to join in the fun! 

I dont see nieghbors with farms anymore when looking at future homesteads out in the country. I see massive piles of organic matter that someone will be all to happy to let me take off their hands. Last fall one post on CL landed me a barn full to the brim with mulch hay and some really rotten hay/manure mix. I

know wherever we end up all I will have to do is ask around to tap into a vast amount compost materials. And I need to double my efforts this fall to get landscapers to dump there shredded leaves from fall cleanups onto my property rather than the dump....save us both the trip. Or better yet maybe I will join them and get people to pay me to harvest their organic matter!


----------



## fishhead

Sarabeth said:


> All I can say is WOW!! This is the most fascinating thread I have EVER read! I don't even have a compost pile.....yet. But, in reading all of this and sharing with my husband, he is now intrigued by the idea of heating water with compost. If you were doing this, how would you go about it? We are going to be building a house starting this summer, and my dh is very intrigued by this and wants to implement it in the future.
> 
> You know, it only takes one person to influence someone...good job Forerunner!
> 
> I have long followed Lori's blog, and find all of your endeavors quite fascinating. You are living the dream many of us only dream of...


Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a site with a couple of Pain videos that should answer some of your questions.


----------



## blooba

I have a question to all the composters out there.

How do you keep roots from finding your compost piles?
I have some piles that are 2-3 yrs old (at max) and apparently the surrounding trees/plants love my compost because it doesn't take long for their roots to get into the piles.

Disclaimer:my piles are not forerunner size.


----------



## Forerunner

Naturelover, you can put a worm to my head and hijack this discussion for the purposes of vermiculture, anytime.

Blooba, if you insist on letting a pile sit two or three years where a tree can get to it, I have no sympathy for you. 

Brian, my latest gift from Above came when a lady called and asked if I could use the hay bales she placed around her trailer last winter...... she didn't tell me she had several hundred...... 
Funny that we put in a half acre of taters this year and I was wondering where the mulch was coming from.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

He always provides!!!


----------



## ca2devri

I love this thread.

My family and I are moving to our new farm this summer. We have possession of it now so plans are actively swirling in my head.

I have a Ford 5000 tractor that is new to me, but actually about the same age as me. I also have a line on a loader that should fit the tractor that I can buy for (hopefully) under $2000. It seems like a lot of money now, but just seeing what can be done with it in this thread has me convinced I need it!

Chris


----------



## Sarabeth

Well, I can't get composting out of my head! We are moving in a couple of months, so I don't want to start a heap right now...but I have made a bin from a large trash can. Hopefully it will work - this will satisfy my need to compost for now! I drilled holes all over the can I hope it works.


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## Forerunner

The 3010 had a broken rocker arm. It's fixed and all reassembled.

The 4630 had a broken rocker arm shaft.... all fixed and reassembled.
While we had the big one apart, we rebuilt the hydraulic pump. It was leaking.

So..... today I hooked up the heavy steel dump to the little tractor to go get a load of horse manure and bedding.... you know, a trial run to see how my power band plays out now...

Wouldn't you know it, 4 miles from home, just minding my own business and only a couple miles from my turn-off and WHAM!!!

What a jolt. 

I heard one of my trailer tires blow out, and was dumbfounded as to how a tire blowout could give me such a jolt from behind. About that time, a fellow passed me from behind, looking back over his shoulder at something behind me, with a really concerned look. The thought struck me then....."I've been hit from behind".

Well, that was a first for me. I pulled off to the side and shut down, jumped off and ran around behind the trailer. A quick glance back confirmed my suspicions.... there was a small red pickup with a massive amount of front end damage. A quick cursory glance at my trailer rear end and undercarraige bore gratifying witness to the quality of my construction..... zero damage to my trailer save for a blown tire.
I walked briskly back to the pickup and realized that it was my hog farming neighbor from across the river. I asked if he was alright, and he assured me that he was. There were broken lights and plastic everywhere. His hood was an accordian, windshield smashed in a bit, radiator mangled, engine knocked off the mounts.

We had a nice visit after he called the authorities on his cell phone.
Turned out--and he admitted it openly to me and the deputy--he had been fidgeting with his AC and didn't even see me until he was right on my tail.

After talking to the deputy a bit and getting squared away with everyone, I decided not to risk hauling a load on the one good tire. (The trailer has dual semi tires, each side). It was getting a little late, as well.

Funny thing is, I had a tire go down a couple weeks ago and the folks out at the trucking company that sees to most of my parts and odds and end needs
fixed me up with a spare that didn't quite match the other dual....
So I got home tonight and went out to the scrap yard, picked out a particularly unemployed semi axle and robbed it of two wheels.
Now my wheels all match again and we're good to go first thing in the morning. 
I think we'll take both tractors and all four wagons and really make a dent in the pile over at the Canton yard waste dump.:bouncy:

No, there really isn't.
There's never a dull moment in the composting profession.


----------



## Freya

Glad to hear no one was hurt!


----------



## mudburn

I'm glad you and the hog farmer were okay, Forerunner. BTW, does he provide you with much composting material? I'm also glad that your trailer survived so well.

I made two runs this afternoon to a 'local' horse farm (18 miles one way) to bring home bedding/manure. Lots of sawdust. I mixed these two loads with the two loads of sale barn cleanings I hauled last week -- somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 tons of stuff. It feels good to build a pile and lay it to rest.

I plan on making a few trips to the sale barn in the morning. We'll see what they have.

Happy hauling!

mudburn


----------



## Forerunner

This particular hog farmer long ago discovered the value of burying dead pigs in sawdust....
He also has a reputation for creating quite an aroma every time he spreads confinement slurry on his fields.

I'm rather looking forward to a few peaceful days hauling and accumulation, myself.


----------



## fishhead

How did the crash make your tire blow?


----------



## frank

Forerunner, Thank you for this awesome thread! I'm about 45 days from the move to my "stead" in AL. Almost can't wait to get to work...

Thanks again for posting!

Some toys to get me started:


----------



## frank

[/IMG]


----------



## frank




----------



## frank

Ah hah got it!


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## frank




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## Forerunner

fishhead said:


> How did the crash make your tire blow?


There is one small dent in the rim.
I assume some portion of his truck made contact there.
Now I've got red paint all over my hitch and spring shackles.....
So much for the rusty, hillbilly look.


----------



## Forerunner

Frank..... no fair using new equipment.
....and that old tractor sure is painted up nice.

I guess you know you've got no excuse to take any time off composting with machines like those....


----------



## frank

lol...Thanks! (That's clay on the rim!)

I couldn't pass that tractor up...Had to buy it. 'found it at a local shop, the guy rebuilds tractors. Rebuilt engine, carb. New tires,alternator, radiator, starter, clutch, brakes, seat, levers, gauges. She looks and runs like new. Almost a shame to get it dirty.







$3700


----------



## frank




----------



## frank

Oops (your rim) sorry to hear about the crash. I guess blessings come well disguised sometimes...


----------



## mudburn

This last weekend, we had 11 inches of rain, 8 of those fell between 7:00am and 6:30pm on Sunday. We didn't experience any flooding on our homestead, but the local town did when the Little Barren River flooded over its banks. The local sale barn from which I haul much of my composting material was flooded with water 5 or more feet deep in places.

Here's a photo of the parking lot at the sale barn someone took on Sunday afternoon:










The river usually flows down by the trees in the background.

I stopped by on Monday morning to offer any help I could in their cleanup. They weren't having a sale this week, and all their guys were going to be working on cleanup. I got a call this morning to bring my truck and haul off wet hay and manure. Of course, I went.

They are cleaning out everything. Lots a nice stuff. It's wet and has lots of hay and sawdust in it. I don't believe I'll need to mix it with any other carbon.

My challenge was where to put it. After the rain, I can't get my truck into the places I've been building piles. I picked another spot, and on the first load got stuck. With the use of a shovel and a little help from the tractor, I was able to get the truck out.

I decided to dump the material on subsequent loads in a spot where all of the wheels could be on ground that wasn't too soft. Then, I use the loader to push the material where I want it. I hauled four loads today, and they want me to come back tomorrow for more. Also, the guy who regularly hauls the stuff away from sale barn asked about hauling to my place. So, we may bring in a lot more tomorrow, including wet rolls of hay.

I didn't realize what would come of 11 inches of rain. When I offered to help, I was (and am) willing to do whatever would be useful to them. I feel very blessed in being able to haul away their "waste" and want to be as helpful to them as possible.

mudburn


----------



## Forerunner

Has the water receded completely ?

That's quite a flood.

I felt the pinch all late winter, what with the local sale barn here coming up with more sopping wet stuff than ever before, and me scrambling to keep up, let alone trying to find firm ground to dump it all on.

When it does dry out, it's always amazing just how much black gold does come of it all.

You keep it up, yer gunna get a reputation for being a good, hard working guy, and they'll bury you in opportunities around there.....


----------



## misplaced

that is a nice looking tractor!
and cute kid 




frank said:


>


----------



## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> Has the water receded completely ?
> 
> That's quite a flood.



Yes, the water apparently went down fairly quickly. The river was back almost to normal by Monday morning.

Gonna haul more. . .


----------



## bluefish

My husband has a Ford 801. My DD (8), was looking at this thread with me and when we came to your pic, she says, "That's a Ford! That's like Daddy's! Only his isn't near that pretty." My daughter is on her way to becoming a tractor nut.  Oh well, she also really likes composting and is always bringing me things that 'would make really good compost, Mom!' ound:




frank said:


>


----------



## mudburn

I hauled seven loads from the sale barn today, and Patrick, the guy who gets paid to keep the sale barn material hauled off, brought in six loads. There is a lot of material still there. So, I'll be hauling again tomorrow even though there are several other things clamoring for my attention (like my garden).









This is the main pile at the sale barn after we've hauled off several loads. We were also getting stuff that's been piled up in the back lots. It's a nice mix of hay, sawdust, and manure. There were also some large square bales of hay that had gotten wet that we hauled today.









Getting loaded. They used the grapple to load some of the material.









The pile. It's hard to grasp the size of it in this photo. It extends back about three times as it is wide in this view.









The pile from the side. I've been pushing it all together as we bring loads in. I tried to mix the hay with some of the wetter stuff with more manure. The hay will make nice compost just by itself.









I dumped two loads of hay from the large square bales near the garden. It's gonna be mulch.









The younguns enjoyed climbing on the pile this evening. The dog did too.









This gives some perspective of the size of the pile. This is the result of two days' work.

I would've put the pile somewhere else if it hadn't been too wet. This place should be alright except that any liquid that drains out will run off and into the creek. I'm going to have to figure out some way to capture that good juice to use elsewhere. That shouldn't be too difficult.

mudburn


----------



## mudburn

Finished my pile yesterday around noon after bringing in two more loads. There was more still to be hauled away, but I had other things to attend to. Thankfully, the shaft which turns the hydraulic pump for the loader on the tractor waited until the afternoon to break. I have that to fix this coming week. But, today is a day of rest.

Here are couple photos of the finished pile which is composed of about 20 dump truck loads of material, including a nice amount of wet hay mixed in and covering it.



















mudburn


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## Forerunner

Man, oh man..... just wait 'til the worms get hold of that !

I've put my extreme focus elsewhere this last week.
I've got well over 500 peppers and nearly five hundred tomatoes out.
Got all manner of odds and ends planted in the last few days.
Over a hundred sweet potato plants..... 
Over 100 pounds of onion sets.... (red, white and yellow)

Got a 120 yard row, each, of hilled up watermelon, cantaloupe and pie pumpkin.

I'll probably tie back into the compost hauling this coming week, in between bouts of finishing up planting details.


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

This thread is very inspiring! In fact, I drove past bags of leaves in front of an immaculate _lawn_ in town yesterday and for the first time thought about stopping to ask for them ... I am a newbie composter. Started last year. Attempted vermicomposting and killed three sets of worms. I still feel guilty. But I'm not giving up! We have plenty of food scraps, a small garden and I can gather stuff like the leaves from town, my daughter's food scraps, etc. The goal this year is to get a pile large enough to heat up. 

Question 1: Can I use shredded office paper and shredded boxes from things like pasta or raisins? I already use egg cartons and cardboard, though I wish I had a quick way to shred them.

Question 2: Peanut shells/hulls - recommended? Not?


----------



## Pony

jlrbhjmnc said:


> Question 1: Can I use shredded office paper and shredded boxes from things like pasta or raisins? I already use egg cartons and cardboard, though I wish I had a quick way to shred them.
> 
> Question 2: Peanut shells/hulls - recommended? Not?


Answer 1: You bet! We bought a paper shredder on sale at Menard's, and used it to shred junk mail, newspaper, office paper, on and on. You need a heavy duty shredder to handle cereal boxes (heavier-duty than ours, anyway). We just rip those up by hand. 

You'll have to remove the cellophane, unless you want to deal with it later. 

Answer 2: You bet. It all reduces to compost. Peanuts are legumes, so all the more reason to use 'em!

There are certain nut trees that are bad for gardens, can't remember which (walnuts?) They contain jeglun, which kills off lots of different plants. I can't remember if you can compost them or not. For some reason (and no, I can't say why b/c I don't recall), I think you can compost the leaves from such trees... <shrug> 

Nick and I used to go all over the 'burbs with our little green trailer in tow, liberating those large brown bags filled with lovely leaves. We have a lot more trees of our own now, but I'd never turn down a bag of leaves for the pile!


----------



## Forerunner

Pony is right. Shredded paper...or not shredded, is good carbon.
The worms know how to shred the toughest carbon products.

Walnut does contain juglone, and should not be spread fresh, but hot composting kills the stuff absolutely in a few months.


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## Pony

JUGLONE! That's it. 

Pretty much everything reduces to compost.


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## jlrbhjmnc

Okay! Thank you Pony and Forerunner. Mo shreddin', mo shreddin', mo shreddin' for me. Well, to be fair, Hubby usually shreds since I go through the mail. I'm really glad we can do this for carbon. And maybe those leaves will still be there tomorrow when we go into town for Mass.

I won't be killing more worms any time soon - poor worms! - as I've decided to concentrate on learning basic composting and building a pile large enough to heat up.

I've noted some book titles in the thread and will check our online public library catalog to see what they have available.


----------



## Pony

Nick feels that shredding paper is very therapeutic.


----------



## paintboy

Man I love when people bag up my compost and set by the street for me to pick up. Many days I come home with a few bags for the pile or directly to the beds.


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## Forerunner

jlrbhjmnc said:


> This thread is very inspiring! In fact, I drove past bags of leaves in front of an immaculate _lawn_ in town yesterday and for the first time thought about stopping to ask for them ... I am a newbie composter.


Oh, Jlrbhjmnc...... (whew, that's quite an acronym (?)) 

Did I mention that it's nice to see you finally posting ? 

You mentioned corrugated cardboard in your first post.
Just to be sure, that stuff is quite compostable and makes excellent worm food.

Welcome to thread and forum...... and never pass a free bag of leaves.
(at least not when I'm watching)


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Forerunner said:


> Oh, Jlrbhjmnc...... (whew, that's quite an acronym (?))
> 
> Did I mention that it's nice to see you finally posting ?
> 
> You mentioned corrugated cardboard in your first post.
> Just to be sure, that stuff is quite compostable and makes excellent worm food.
> 
> Welcome to thread and forum...... and never pass a free bag of leaves.
> (at least not when I'm watching)


 Thanks, Forerunner! I'm very pleased to have found this forum.  The jumble of consonants is a family thing, in that Hubby and I have used a form of it online in various ways since our marriage. I hadn't considered it being awkward on forums, but it* is* odd, isn't it? Ah, well, then it fits me and our family perfectly  - we're "weird" and getting more so every day. 

Glad to know about the cardboard. We still have a bit of supply and I bet the guys at the local dump (ahem, "transfer station") would let us take from the cardboard dumpsters if we asked. 

What is a good way to shred cardboard? Or should I just use it in the pile in between wet stuff? I do wish I had a mechanical way to shred cardboard and egg cartons. I'm sort of hung up on getting things into smaller pieces, though now I see I've been missing the importance having a pile of adequate size. All this clay and no compost for it ... :grump:. I am an impatient sort, but learning...


----------



## Forerunner

If I had a lot of cardboard or paper to contend with, I would layer it, sandwich style, with grass clippings, a bit of soil, a little finished compost, animal manures, etc.

Let the worms and the microbes shred it for you. Moisture would be the next thing.
Not too sopping wet, definitely not dry.


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Sort of a cardboard sandwich for worms and microbes! I get it: Let them do the work. :doh: Now for some (extremely) smarter composting ...


----------



## mudburn

If I had a lot of cardboard, I might be tempted to run the lawnmower over it to shred it some and then mix it with grass clippings and kitchen scraps. . .


----------



## farmerbrian

If I had a lot of cardboard (just plain ol' cardboard, not some crazy packaging stuff), I would use it as the base layer of mulch over an area of aggressive perennial weeds that were likely to push their way up through a deep layer of hay or leaves. 

And the next time a start a garden i will have huge piles of mulch ready at head to go in as a permenant cover as soon the site is cleared and rooted up, so no vigorous perennials get a chance to thrive. Tilling in the spring and mulching heavily 6 months later in the fall is the hard way!


----------



## RedneckPete

I can understand the addictive nature of collecting "valuable" stuff, but what in the world are you folks going to do with all this compost?

Have you figured out the time and fuel spent, let alone repairs and wear and tear on your equipment, to determine if the return on investment is even remotely worthwhile? Having a wonderful plot of land is great, bankrupting yourself to do it, then loosing it to the bank is not so great. Could be you are independently wealthy.

Pete


----------



## jtjf_1

******* you should go read at the beginning. It's all explained there. Thats why threads have a beginning and you can't just jump in in the end.


----------



## TxGypsy

I am SO incredibly jealous. Way too cool....and the toys....I want the toys :bow:

I'm thinking of asking Santa for a commercial chipper for Christmas<drool>.


----------



## mudburn

RedneckPete said:


> I can understand the addictive nature of collecting "valuable" stuff, but what in the world are you folks going to do with all this compost?
> 
> Have you figured out the time and fuel spent, let alone repairs and wear and tear on your equipment, to determine if the return on investment is even remotely worthwhile? Having a wonderful plot of land is great, bankrupting yourself to do it, then loosing it to the bank is not so great. Could be you are independently wealthy.
> 
> Pete


Soil fertility is priceless!

If that isn't enough of a reason, just consider it as a recycling program: we are putting to good use that which is otherwise considered and treated as a waste product.

Oh, I'm not independently wealthy. However, there is no bank note on this plot of land or any of my equipment. I don't do debt. I can't speak for others, but for me, extreme composting is part of a pursuit of independence which is incongruent with the slavery of debt. :bash:

mudburn


----------



## Pony

Big chunks of cardboard are great for sheet composting.


----------



## Forerunner

jtjf_1 said:


> ******* you should go read at the beginning. It's all explained there. Thats why threads have a beginning and you can't just jump in in the end.


Thank you, Jtjf. That was perfect.

No debt here, either. No banks. Just passion for soil.
The long term is to leave my children with some of the richest ground in the world. Food will again be king, soon, and those who can consistently provide it to people will again be afforded the honor and respect they deserve.

We'll not go into the independence that such would afford, nor the health benefits of eating from Utopian fertility.
Nor will I touch on the short-sighted tendencies and lack of vision/energy that has subsequently been bred into the masses and exacerbated by a general lack of real nutrition......


----------



## Ode

If we had a large enough property we would be doing this too. You can get the stuff for free, and it just increases the real value of your land which is its ability to produce. As it is, we are practicing a downsized version suitable for our property size. I am rather envious of some of these piles, even though they are bigger than our backyard, lol.


----------



## RedneckPete

I actually have been reading this thread from day one, and I admire your motivation and initiative.

I grew up watching my mother spend more then twenty years digging literally tons of compost into very large, urban, backyard vegetable patch. It was truly wonderful soil.

She grew too old to manage the place, and moved to a townhouse. Less then a month later, the new owners brought in a bobcat, flattened the garden and sodded the entire backyard.

If you are the only one with food in an EOTWAWKI scenario, that food, and the ability to produce it will be taken from you by force.

Nevertheless, happy composting.

Pete


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Ode said:


> If we had a large enough property we would be doing this too. You can get the stuff for free, and it just increases the real value of your land which is its ability to produce. As it is, we are practicing a downsized version suitable for our property size. I am rather envious of some of these piles, even though they are bigger than our backyard, lol.


That's our situation, too, Ode. We have .72 acre and it is in a rural but semi-suburban setting, so we have to be careful of the neighbors. We have plenty of room to have at least a pickup-size pile, and thankfully our neighbors are all reasonable folks. Hubby can't wait to share with our fellow gardeners in the 'hood. I NEED this compost to improve our place, period. We have clay and rocks and we have no funds for buying soil amendments. Sadly (to me), a fair amount of our compost will go to grow grass in the front, to work on "curb appeal" for when we do sell. But I'll be using stuff I would have thrown out and had to cart to the dump, plus other folks' castoffs, so I can make progress within our means.


----------



## Forerunner

RedneckPete said:


> I actually have been reading this thread from day one, and I admire your motivation and initiative.
> 
> I grew up watching my mother spend more then twenty years digging literally tons of compost into very large, urban, backyard vegetable patch. It was truly wonderful soil.
> 
> She grew too old to manage the place, and moved to a townhouse. Less then a month later, the new owners brought in a bobcat, flattened the garden and sodded the entire backyard.
> 
> If you are the only one with food in an EOTWAWKI scenario, that food, and the ability to produce it will be taken from you by force.
> 
> Nevertheless, happy composting.
> 
> Pete



Pete, I can't say that I don't sympathize with your perspective.
As for your mother, she followed her passion, I dare say enjoyed it, and was blessed by the fruits of her own labor.

As for what happens post "structured" society, speak for yourself.
I don't know your situation, position, nor capabilities, and I've barely touched on my own, here. Providence will deal each of us exactly what "It" would have us to face and overcome in our time.
I'm rather looking forward to the challenge.


----------



## Nancy

Forerunner, do you sell at a farmer's market? You have an extreme amount of gardening going on for just feeding your family. But who am I to wonder if one family can consume the produce from 500 tomato plants  Just curious.


----------



## edcopp

Every time I see a dead animal along the road, I have the urge to run the flies off, pick up the carcass; and take this this valuable resource home with me.

Does this urge ever go away?ound:


----------



## Forerunner

Nancy said:


> Forerunner, do you sell at a farmer's market? You have an extreme amount of gardening going on for just feeding your family. But who am I to wonder if one family can consume the produce from 500 tomato plants  Just curious.



I've sold on a VERY limited basis in the past.....gave a lot away.... but, this year I'm gearing up to sell on a larger scale.
The kids are really developing an appreciation for gardening, and Rachel and Sam are very interested in selling produce to the public. Sam even wants to open a general store.....
We'll see how it goes.

That said, my fresh salsa recipe calls for lots of tomatoes, and we eat LOTS of fresh salsa.


----------



## Forerunner

edcopp said:


> Every time I see a dead animal along the road, I have the urge to run the flies off, pick up the carcass; and take this this valuable resource home with me.
> 
> Does this urge ever go away?ound:


No, Ed, it really doesn't. 

Myself, I like to catch my roadkill before the fly eggs hatch, lay it on the pile to age for a few days, then bury it when the maggots are out in full force.
I've been wanting to write up a dramatic, first-person (maggot) rendition
of what it must be like to be blissfully buried in a compost pile, on or in a rotting carcass, only to have the thermophilic soldiers show up a few short hours later, raise the temp to 160 degrees before anyone can get away and then slaughter the whole grossly oozing and pulsating feeding orgy in a sticky, gory, foul and stinking bloodbath. 

Wouldn't that be too cool ?


----------



## paintboy

Forerunner you have a way with words. Perhaps a composting book is in order.


----------



## fishhead

How long does it take for the composting process to finish?


----------



## Forerunner

This is my composting book. 

Of course, for those who haven't seen the link, there is a sticky in the survival forum.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=332336

Fishhead, I like to let a pile sit for a year, but under rather easily attained ideal conditions, i.e. suitable carbon/nitrogen ratio, adequate, but not excessive moisture, good environment (summertime), 6 months can be enough.


----------



## fishhead

That's good because my pile has to be done by this fall so I can spread it. I'm planning for a move and I can't leave a pile sitting there.


----------



## Forerunner

........ but, if I had a tub grinder and Ehrenfried Pfeiffer's 60+ strain bacteria cultures.... they say a week is enough.:bouncy:


----------



## Forerunner

fishhead said:


> That's good because my pile has to be done by this fall so I can spread it. I'm planning for a move and I can't leave a pile sitting there.


You're going to spread a perfectly good compost pile, and then move ?
How intensely charitable of you!


----------



## fishhead

It's my house so I want to spruce up the lawn for future resale. If I was planning on staying it would all go in my sandy but fertile garden.


----------



## michelleIL

Forerunner said:


> No, Ed, it really doesn't.
> 
> Myself, I like to catch my roadkill before the fly eggs hatch, lay it on the pile to age for a few days, then bury it when the maggots are out in full force.
> I've been wanting to write up a dramatic, first-person (maggot) rendition
> of what it must be like to be blissfully buried in a compost pile, on or in a rotting carcass, only to have the thermophilic soldiers show up a few short hours later, raise the temp to 160 degrees before anyone can get away and then slaughter the whole grossly oozing and pulsating feeding orgy in a sticky, gory, foul and stinking bloodbath.
> 
> Wouldn't that be too cool ?


Now that was just awesome!!! No wonder you and wally get along so well. I can't wait for you to meet little wally!


----------



## Forerunner

There's a little Wally ?!!?


----------



## Allen W

Forerunner
thanks for starting this informative and inspiring post. I may not start any giant compost piles but it has reminded me I need to work harder on keeping a green manure crop planted and inspired me to look at things differently then I have been. Need to get a few sacks of cowpeas bought and planted.


----------



## Panhandler

Forerunner,you are the most inspiring read that i have seen on composting!!! Great what you are doing and MORE of use should follow your footsteps. I have started a small compost pile,but you inspire me to GO BIGGER.:rock:


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## Forerunner

Thanks, Felluhs.

The other day, I had a run-in (non-violent) with an old farmer/heavy equipment operator friend. He's getting up in years, and just happened to be visiting with an even older friend who's barn I happened to be scooping the old horse manure and bedding out of to take home for immediate use. 
He started right in on how he sees me _every_where, hauling some compost material or another back to the farm.
He mentioned the tendencies of modern day farming, where you try to extract everything you can from the land for a short term profit..... and then compared that to the only operation he's ever seen where someone devoted their life to the exact opposite approach. He's one of those old fellows who watched me grow up, saw the hardships and the victories along the way, and knows me about as well as anyone can, from the outside looking in. He even lost an adult daughter a few years back, so there's even that bit of commonality.....
His perspective on that day we visited gave me new energy.
I hadn't thought of myself as being one of the so very few who is obsessed with putting more into the soil than I'll ever be able to take back out.... obvious though it must be.

All I know is, everything on the place that's planted and germinated right now is doing extremely well, even in spite of the cold, damp weather.
But...... there is that one patch of volunteer potatoes that Lori threw the shriveled parent seed of into the compost pile, right next to the house, a few weeks ago.
They dwarf the rest of my current potato crops, even though all basically planted at the same time..... These compost pile taters are 16 inches high-plus....rich, deep green with not a hint of stress. 
It's these little reminders, just how well things do in compost, compared to the soil that I've already MASSIVELY composted, that tells me how very long a way I have to go.
I dream of what the soil in Eden must have been like, and I ponder that the western grain belt lost multiple FEET of black topsoil during and after the dust bowl.
We are given the choice here. We can walk through, taking in the sights, maintaining our comfort levels and our place of "normalcy" among our societal peers, contributing no more than is absolutely necessary for our basic, near-pointless survival.....
Or, we can roll up our sleeves, take the criticism, suffer the cost, and make one hell of a difference.
There's no choice for me.


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## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> I hadn't thought of myself as being one of the so very few who is obsessed with putting more into the soil than I'll ever be able to take back out.... obvious though it must be.
> 
> . . .We are given the choice here. We can walk through, taking in the sights, maintaining our comfort levels and our place of "normalcy" among our societal peers, contributing no more than is absolutely necessary for our basic, near-pointless survival.....
> Or, we can roll up our sleeves, take the criticism, suffer the cost, and make one hell of a difference.
> There's no choice for me.


Excellent post, Forerunner! :thumb:

Putting more into the soil than we can take back out makes perfect sense to me. It's part of being a good steward of what our Father has entrusted us with. It isn't the usual approach to life that is practiced by most around us. It seems to me that it's not so much of a choice as it is a recognition of the responsibility/right we have to take care of that which is given to us to 'dress and keep.'

Your experiences and stories of volunteer potatoes in the compost pile give me more drive to do everything I can to enrich and develop the fertility of the soil here on this little patch of ground. I do not have near enough going yet for what I want to do with it for next year.

Thanks for blazing a trail ahead so that I can see more clearly where to go. I appreciate it greatly! :bow:

mudburn


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## michelleIL

I think I may have pulled a volunteer tater myself, except not out of the compost...out of the yard, not too far from my little patch. Kinda funny, pulled it cuz I thought it was a weed, but the thing just snapped off, and then I made the comparison to my other taters. hmmmmm.....I wish my little pile would move itself along. I know I need more carbon, but durn! It got a lot of moisture.....maybe I'm impatient!

I too, enjoy the thought of putting more into the soil then what I took from it. Looking forward to the fall when I can "put the old garden to bed" under a nice pile of fallen leaves.....from other ppl's yards, and maybe a bit of my own!


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## Forerunner

Upon reading the replies..... I was compelled to look out at the volunteer taters again.
Turns out I lied. *blush*
They're at least two feet tall now. 
That'll teach me to leave off paying attention for two or three days at a time.:hammer:


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## dancingfatcat

Well I may not be hauling huge loads like forerunner but I have come up with some different ways to get stuff into my LITTLE pile. I asked at the church (they have a wed. night dinner for families)if they would start saving me the prep scraps and coffee grounds. A few of the ladies who cook, then said that they would even start saving stuff at home and bring it to me  I also take a few bags of the grass and leaf clippings the gardeners (locals) have every week and have been taking the "free" horse manure, from anyone who will give it to me. I also use wood shavings from my daughters guinea pigs and shred all paper from home and take up cardboard. 
I should point out that my garden and compost pile are not at my home, as I have no space for it. Hey, my piles not big ........ YET! 

Oh yea, I forgot to say..........that I too, have started taking pictures of said "pile", as though it were a child growing up, going through it's different stages in life............need I say more ;D


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## jlrbhjmnc

Woo hoo!! :happy: We have our VERY FIRST bucket of compost, the final result of last year's worm massacres and continued efforts at just tossing stuff in there and moving it around.

AND we have set up an area to pile all the great stuff we've been noticing around the community but had no place to unload. Yippee! Now, we're feeling a little shy and please keep in mind we are total greenhorns, but we don't lack enthusiasm. So here it is:

The first photo is our very first bucket of compost ever. Behind the bucket is the black plastic tub it came from (the rest of the contents of the tub are helping our new pile get started) and you can just see some of the red plastic coffee tubs that we use in the kitchen to gather scraps:










This photo is of our new pile. We started with some of the cardboard we had lying around, the contents of six of our coffee tubs o' scraps, the remainder of the contents of the black tub, a couple of double size milk crates full of last year's garden stuff and some newspaper. It doesn't look like much, but we have a visual guide now and a place to dump our finds as well as our own scraps and garden waste. The area is about three feet hight, 8 to 9 feet long and 4 feet wide. We tried to give ourselves the dimensions of a standard pickup load :nerd: ...










Jennifer

Don't wait for something big to occur. Start where you are, with what you have, and that will always lead you into something greater.


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## Bluebird

Forerunner,
Need some inspiration here, if you have time, could you post some pictures of your garden and what is growing right now? Maybe of your two foot potato pants as well? Thanks, Bluebird


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## anvoj

Great thread, and very inspiring. I've enjoyed lurking here, but have a question now for forerunner:
When I got my 40 it had recently been logged and a lot of the timber went into the chipper. 
I'm opening up a new garden spot, pulling the soil from a swampy area where they did the chipping. It's sort of been composting for +/- 10 years, but laid out over a big area maybe 16" thick rather than a pile. There's a lot of really black soil in there but still a lot of intact (but soft, half broken down) wood chip material in there too. Lots of worms. I'd say it's 70% black soil to 30% rotting wood chips. Nice texture to it.
I know it's hard to say without seeing it, but do you think I could use it as is? Would you lime it? Are you going to tell me to pile it up and let it sit for a year, crushing my garden expansion dreams for this summer?
thanks!
this thread makes me with I lived next to a feed lot...


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## fishhead

Do compost piles dry out by giving up steam?

I've dug into mine and find lots of spots where the hay is dry and dusty but has steam coming up through those spots.


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## Forerunner

Jennifer.... A+ on your first batch. It looks black. 
Your current pile looks like it wants a bit of animal manure or fresh grass clippings to nitro-saturate your paper layer. Of course, then you'd need more carbon. Of course, then you'd need more nitrogen. Of course, if you did that, the size of :bouncy: your pile might get out of hand. 

Bluebird..... pics forthcoming...likely this evening.

Anvoj, that's my favorite stuff to plant in. You can always rake out and further compost the larger chunks, and you can always manure tea a little around individual plants if there seems to be a deficiency. Compost tea would be safer, but manure tea made a little weaker does the job well. Blend it up so it's just rather translucent.... a little darker than herb tea, maybe not as dark as that instant crap they sell at the grocery store.
Weekly applications of manure tea right down the center, between planted rows, in your deep mulch pack, is priceless.

Fishhead, those dry spots should be worked out as you build the piles. Try to avoid them. The steaming action will rob a little moisture from the pile, but not much.
If I start a pile with adequate moisture, it generally maintains, unless we experience a drought. If I start a pile too wet, it seeps and seeps, saturating a portion of ground downhill from the pile, until the condition balances itself or I happen to remix the pile with drier material. If I knew I had dry spots as you describe, I'd five gallon bucket either water or manure tea onto the pile.....or urinate on it frequently, you know, commune with it from time to time.:kiss:


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## IndyGardenGal

We're still keeping up with this thread. We are planning on keeping a couple good sized piles going on our small homestead to keep our bigger garden patches going.

We keep a 5 gallon bucket in the house to toss anything we can compost into and drag it out to the smaller piles we have by the garden. DH stuck his hand into the bigger pile we've had going longest, and it's getting HOT! I can't wait to have some good black compost to spread around the garden. I prefer that black compost under my fingernails to perfectly polished nails any day!


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## fishhead

I've hosed down the pile several times now and we've had 3 inches of rain but I'm still finding those whitish dry hot spots. I just hosed it down with lake water for about 1/2 hour. It seems the hottest spots are also the ones that are dry and whitish. I'm pretty sure the white color is coming from hay mold.

The pile has dropped a foot already so either it's soaking up water or turning to compost.


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## jlrbhjmnc

Forerunner said:


> Jennifer.... A+ on your first batch. It looks black.
> Your current pile looks like it wants a bit of animal manure or fresh grass clippings to nitro-saturate your paper layer. Of course, then you'd need more carbon. Of course, then you'd need more nitrogen. Of course, if you did that, the size of :bouncy: your pile might get out of hand.


Aww, shucks. Thanks! Yes, the compost came out very black. I learned the value of having a contraption to sift it... used an old milk crate with ~3/8 inch openings to sift for this first bucket. I'll see if I can get some scrap wood from the carpenters working on the new house up the street and put something together. 

We do have to get going and find some manure. We have a couple of possibilities, just hope we won't have to dodge the ram at one place. They have Mr. Ram and his gals and a horse. There's a cattle farm with a small herd, too. And if the rain holds off tomorrow and our daughter isn't in labor, I can knock down some more of our tall grass and throw that on. Here's to a totally weird (for "normal" people) and entirely too large pile :hobbyhors.


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## Forerunner

As promised, a short tour........

Three year old grapes in a two foot by six foot deep compost bed.....80 yards long....









Three year old peaches and the white onion patch.









A representation of the peach crop. We have nearly 20 trees.....









Red onions, cabbage and peas.....









Red onions









Cabbage and one of the garlic patches.....









A representation of the plum crop....









.....and, for now, lastly, some of our young apple trees are starting to produce...









Now that weather is finally warming a bit and maybe even drying a bit, tomatoes, peppers and sweet potatoes should be looking much better soon.
They're all still smaller than I'd like.
The super potato will have to wait 'til tomorrow. My photographer forgot....


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## katy

I thank your photographer -- great pics and the captions also. Now about those white onions, what's with all the purple, it almost looks like it is something between the rows ?

And what kind of garlic ? I am captivated by onions and garlic...... 

And it is as prolific as you say.............. congratulations. it's still to wet here to plant.


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## ChristieAcres

Great pictures & would enjoy having a lot more land for my garden. We are experiencing cool temperatures, just barely warm enough to plant in. I am planting more tomorrow, but holding back on my tomatoes. I'll just pot them up and they can live in the garden cabin for another few weeks.

I am happy to report we now have more compost piles and DH is contributing like it was his idea  Hmmm, tho on the communing, as I got a strange look when I mentioned it. The latest one is almost as big as it can be for it's present location, so I'll be choosing another spot for the next one. I know right where I will have a HUGE one, but DH needs to get rid of the cars currently parked there... Those were given to us for salvaging.

I took one suggestion of yours and it was rather interesting. There won't be any issues getting more beds or any help in the garden or with compost piles...


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## Bluebird

Absolutley beautiful. Inspiration indeed!! Thank you!


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## Forerunner

lorichristie said:


> I took one suggestion of yours and it was rather interesting. There won't be any issues getting more beds or any help in the garden or with compost piles...


:shocked::thumb:


Katy... don't know what variety of garlic we've got. We acquired our first "seed" for that years ago....under different female management......
As for the onions, the only thing between the rows at the moment is mulch.
It's almost too wet to plant here, as well, but the soil is like moist coffee grounds in most places. That's why it's hard to quit hauling in material.
Once you discover the formula for building Eden-type soil (hard work), where do you draw the line ?

More pics forthcoming as the season progresses.


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## michelleIL

I haven't started anything yet, but the wheels have definitely begun to turn! Oh, and I have another random cuke coming up in my ofra....funny! I have yet to plant the OTHER cuke in the bucket, nor the other tomatillos


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

i am interested in your onions when do you start them , what varieties and are they from seed or set.

very nice looking gardens


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## curdy

Well, I couldn't take it any longer...I had to jump in on the fun too. I got turned on to this thread through mudburn's blog. I have really enjoyed reading the stories and seeing the pictures on here!

Here's our current pile after a fresh turn and addition of some grass clippings and old planer shavings.


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## SueMc

Forerunner & Lori, Your gardens are beautiful! The photos should be in a gardening magazine!
I do have a question. We have a huge pile of horse manure/sawdust/crushed corncob bedding. We usually just spread it on the pasture late in Winter. Because of this thread, I convinced my husband to leave it alone and I have been adding kitchen "waste" to it and am now starting to add what little green stuff I have (weeds, lawn clippings). The pile is going to be predominately manure/bedding for quite awhile. I know I will add leaves in the fall, but don't have alot of other things to add. Do you have any other suggestions or should I just keep adding what little green stuff I can get? Also, the more I hear about horse manure and weed problems, the more I hesitate to use it. I would hate not to use such a great "gift" from my 5 equines!
Thanks, Sue


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## highlands

This afternoon we just spread one of our compost piles to make a new garden. Several 600 to 800 lb pigs, a sheep, a few chickens, brush, wood shavings and a lot of other good stuff went into this pile. Now it's rich black gold. Even the bones dissolve. 83 cubic-yards of weed free instant garden. Right now the chickens are picking it over. I'll rake it smooth, what they don't handle, tomorrow and then fence them out so I can plant. I love not weeding. The plants love that deep, fluffy rich garden bed.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## Pony

SueMc said:


> Forerunner & Lori, Your gardens are beautiful! The photos should be in a gardening magazine!
> I do have a question. We have a huge pile of horse manure/sawdust/crushed corncob bedding. We usually just spread it on the pasture late in Winter. Because of this thread, I convinced my husband to leave it alone and I have been adding kitchen "waste" to it and am now starting to add what little green stuff I have (weeds, lawn clippings). The pile is going to be predominately manure/bedding for quite awhile. I know I will add leaves in the fall, but don't have alot of other things to add. Do you have any other suggestions or should I just keep adding what little green stuff I can get? Also, the more I hear about horse manure and weed problems, the more I hesitate to use it. I would hate not to use such a great "gift" from my 5 equines!
> Thanks, Sue


I'm not a composting expert, but when I was gleaning goodies from the local stables, I found that there was a pretty good ratio between the bedding and manure. I even sheet-composted some of it.

Today, because we're just plain out of compost for my (yet again oversized) gardens, I just spread the bedding from the rabbits and goats right into the garden, covering the weeds but not touching the bedding stock. It's worked before, and with all this rain, I need something out there to soak up all that "wet" lying around.

(We planted a few replacement trees yesterday, and almost had to scoop water out of the holes. I don't expect we'll have to worry about watering those for a couple of days.)


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## Forerunner

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> i am interested in your onions when do you start them , what varieties and are they from seed or set.
> 
> very nice looking gardens


Onions are a study for me.
I'm still learning by doing.....

The onions in the pics are sets. I broke down this spring and bought 33 pounds each of just plain "reds", whites" and "yellows".
We never have had too many onions, and I wanted to see if we ever could. 

I do have some sweet Spanish whites that I am propagating from seed, and attempting to save seed.
I have a few sets of those from last year, as well as some nice red sets that kept very well over winter. 
Hoping to get some good seed from both those varieties later.

The onions that I have started from seed....the Spanish whites, last year and this.... both in February.... did very well, and some even made baseball sized bulbs, from seed..... in one season.... 
I was happy. 

It's taking me some time, what with mishaps, bad weather and ignorance slowly being overcome, but I want to make lots and lots of onions from my own stock every year, sustainably.

They sure grow good in rich, black, composty soil.


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## Forerunner

SueMc said:


> Forerunner & Lori, Your gardens are beautiful! The photos should be in a gardening magazine!
> I do have a question. We have a huge pile of horse manure/sawdust/crushed corncob bedding. We usually just spread it on the pasture late in Winter. Because of this thread, I convinced my husband to leave it alone and I have been adding kitchen "waste" to it and am now starting to add what little green stuff I have (weeds, lawn clippings). The pile is going to be predominately manure/bedding for quite awhile. I know I will add leaves in the fall, but don't have alot of other things to add. Do you have any other suggestions or should I just keep adding what little green stuff I can get? Also, the more I hear about horse manure and weed problems, the more I hesitate to use it. I would hate not to use such a great "gift" from my 5 equines!
> Thanks, Sue


Sue, do keep adding whatever you come up with to that pile.
The manure/bedding base is the best foundation there is for a compost pile.
Manure provides nitrogen and multiple bacteria strains. The bedding provides carbon and trapped oxygen.
Whatever you add to that mix, for variety, is icing on the cake.
If your pile is big enough to heat, weeds seeds won't be much of a problem.
Now the few weeds that do grow on the shell of your pile need to be pulled and turned into the pile so that _they_ don't go to seed.
I need to do that to a couple of my piles soon.....
I'm planning to use the bulldozer to do it, and then level the pile off to about five feet deep rather than ten, blade in some long rows and plant melons and peppers in it. (rubs hands together, cackling merrily at the thought)
I might even do some before, during and after pitchers. 

As for the beauty of the gardens, thank you.
I have inspiration from out of this world, so to speak.

There are more pics of the gardens and misc. here....

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=339842


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## misplaced

Forerunner said:


> The super potato will have to wait 'til tomorrow. My photographer forgot....


:umno:... look harder


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## Forerunner

My humblest apologies..... 

These tater vines are now approaching three feet.










Let's analyze.....
This tater is in pure, finished compost.
It benefits from excellent drainage.
It gets half sun, each day, being positioned directly against the east side of the house.
It wasn't planted earlier than other taters this year.

:shrug:

It really wasn't even planted......just tossed out with some rougher looking red taters residual from a kitchen project, then buried lightly in some other compostable or another.

All I know is, I have one super red potato going on here, and I plan to turn the rest of this ten acres tillable (roughly) into the same stuff that's making THAT tater go nuts.:bouncy:


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## twospirit

I'm new to the HT forum and after many years of wanting I am finally starting to live my homesteading dream. I am moving from NW Atlanta this weekend to my new 10 acre homestead farm in Alabama.

_The preceding has nothing to do with this thread per se, but there was nowhere else for me to introduce myself and after spending the entire night last night reading this thread from start to finish I feel like I know some of you already, so there you have it._

*Michael*


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## Forerunner

Perfect. 

Glad to have you aboard.


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## michelleIL

two spirit in the traditional native american way I take it?


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## twospirit

michelleIL said:


> two spirit in the traditional native american way I take it?


Quite observant of you. Good call.


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## bernice13

This is an amazing thread. Thank you, Forerunner. I have a very ignorant, newby question. When you spread the compost on your garden, do you need to put mulch OVER it to keep the weeds from growing? Or does the compost itself count as mulch? Can I plant, say, a bean plant, and then just put a big pile of finished compost all around the plant stem and expect not to have grass and weeds growing right up to it? Or should I put straw / chipped wood or something on top of the compost?


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## Forerunner

Properly heated compost won't allow many weed seeds to survive.
Compost should be tilled in, but can be used as a side dressing after planting.
It shouldn't be used for top mulching if for no other reason than it is simply too valuable. When I top dress with compost, I always cover with a more benign, carbon-based mulch to protect my compost from sunlight.
That top dressing (leaves, straw, light coat of sawdust, woodchips, etc.)
also serves as the final weed suppressant, conserves moisture and feeds the worms for the duration.


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## michelleIL

twospirit said:


> Quite observant of you. Good call.


Something I learned in college...don't know if it did me any good to learn it...wish I could have learned of folk medicine instead!


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## Trisha in WA

Speak to me please of composting ashes and charcoal from a slash pile. We burned several piles along the lake shore and it really needs to be cleaned up a little more, but I am concerned with how that might make my new and growing compost pile get really out of balance. My pile consists of probably 60% old dry hay and the rest is wet fresh cow manure and kitchen scraps. It is pretty small still and the chickens work at it everyday. Please advise.
Thanks,
Trisha


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## Forerunner

Spread your clean ash and light charcoal directly on soil that you want to sweeten.
Ash reacts with nitrogen, driving it out of the pile and into the atmosphere.
Very seldom do I mix ashes with my compost....and even when I do, likely enough I shouldn't.


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## Trisha in WA

Thank you Forerunner. It just didn't feel right adding it to the compost pile.
We have very acidic soil due to all the pine trees, so I will spread it on the ground where I hope to put raised beds for a late (read Fall) garden.


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## wyld thang

Thanks for finally posting some garden pics:clap:

I'm curious about your machinery you use, the tractors, bulldozer etc. This thread has gotten so long to read through to see if you haven't already talked abotu it--so sorry if you have.

So what is a complete list of equipiment you use to handle all this, do you own it or rent or barter/borrow use of. 

Do you wrench your own machines? how do you get parts when you need them, salvage? machine new stuff to jerry rig?

Does the net from your crops pay for fuel, repair, tires, fluids? Where do you salvage hydraulic fluid from? (we use trash oil from vehicles and used to have a GM mech friend who would bring us their trash oil, also have used old cooking oil). This includes fuel to collect compost materials. How much do you have delivered? 

Do you barter equipment work for goods or services? (we have done this)

Do you feel composting action breaks down leaked oil and hydraulic fluid sufficiently?


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## Forerunner

I believe most of those questions could be answered by a thorough reread of this thread.
But I am curious, for whom are you seemingly attempting to collect so much of my asset-related information all at once ?

As for composting oils, they have to be in the thick and heat of the pile.
Where so composted, they do often disappear without a trace.


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## wyld thang

I could care less about your assets. I was simply asking about the practical issues of shoving all that compost around. Not everyone has the equipment to do it. If they want the equipment they need to know how to support that equipment and make it "pay". Obviously you need the equipment to manage that volume of compost. 

Oil in compost--so you've had the compost tested for oil residue? Sure you're not going to "see" anything. Doesn't mean it ain't there. I'm talking diesel and hydraulic, NOT vegetable/fry oil. Because I'm sure you don't have spanking brand new equipment. Old stuff leaks.


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## Forerunner

Joseph Jenkins in his "Humanure Handbook" goes into detail about how well microbes can completely digest industrial oils. Industrial oils are what I was referring to, as well.

As for the level at which I have chosen to compost, and the equipment required, who ever said anyone had to go to matching extremes ? If they do, they will, as a matter of necessity, either have the money or the time to learn and acquire what they need.

I thought you were a big proponent for zero composting.
Why all the sudden interest ?

A simple, 50-70 horse loader tractor and a couple dump wagons....or a one ton truck with a dump bed, would be my recommendations for getting started in a productive way. That said, a pitch fork and hand cart can accomplish a lot in a day.
I still use both.


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## mudburn

Composting does not require expensive machines. Extreme composting doesn't require expensive machines, either, but it is easier to handle and move the volume of material with the aid of machinery. That machinery does not have to be expensive, and those who value soil fertility will find ways of acquiring the necessary equipment. Said equipment would likely include a pitchfork and shovel to begin with and on a recurring basis thereafter.

Within the last year I have invested money in my composting efforts because I have been blessed through Forerunner's sharing of his endeavors with a vision of what is possible. I now have a great desire to build up the fertility of the soil on my homestead. The most important of my investments was a loader tractor in which I have invested $4,000, including a brand new set of rear tires. I also bought a dump truck in order to haul more at a time ($3,000), but one could argue that it wasn't necessary.

My yearly income during the last several years has been below $20,000 per year. It is through frugality and hard work and the blessings of God that I had the money to invest in composting. It's a small price to pay for what I see as important returns that are yet to be realized.

If I was only concerned with spreading 4"-6" of compost only on my gardens every year (or one year), I could have accomplished that without the addition of equipment. I have a 3/4 ton truck with a dump bed, a 16' trailer (and the ingenuity to unload it), and a tractor to which I can attach a grader blade. I also have a scoop shovel and a pitch fork.

I am not concerned about the presence of oils in my compost piles, nor would it be worth having the compost tested for oil. In the overall scheme of things, these are very minor concerns. The amount of mistreatment through the application of excessive amounts of chemicals and the exportation of fertility with little or no importation affecting so much farm land during the last few generations renders any worry about possible exposure to or inclusion of limited amounts of hydraulic fluid, diesel fuel, or motor oil frivolous.

One of these days, it may very well become practically impossible for me to use some/much/all of my machinery, at which point I will invest a lot more sweat equity in order to compost on a smaller scale than what I have currently undertaken. Before that time comes, I desire to have hauled in as much material, built as many compost piles, and spread as much finished compost as possible. In order to feed my family and others who have need, the fertility of the soil will be our greatest asset. There is no time to waste. . . 

mudburn


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## wyld thang

Forerunner said:


> Joseph Jenkins in his "Humanure Handbook" goes into detail about how well microbes can completely digest industrial oils. Industrial oils are what I was referring to, as well.
> 
> As for the level at which I have chosen to compost, and the equipment required, who ever said anyone had to go to matching extremes ? If they do, they will, as a matter of necessity, either have the money or the time to learn and acquire what they need.
> 
> I thought you were a big proponent for zero composting.
> Why all the sudden interest ?
> 
> A simple, 50-70 horse loader tractor and a couple dump wagons....or a one ton truck with a dump bed, would be my recommendations for getting started in a productive way. That said, a pitch fork and hand cart can accomplish a lot in a day.
> I still use both.


thank you. I simply was thinking of other people wanting to do this on the scale you portray, what kind of resources and energy does it take. You know trying to be helpful. Personally I use a pitchfork and a hoe and a wheelbarrow. I've been reading your thread, got lost for the last several pages and wanted to ask a question. Sheesh, first I get blasted for no interest, then I get blasted for asking a question. 

I didn't say zero composting. Go back and read what I said.


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## misplaced

wyld thang said:


> Thanks for finally posting some garden pics:clap:


Finally? 
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=339842


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## Bluebird

Forerunner,
I was looking back on some of this post and noticed it looks like you have a hammermill that you use to schred leaves and hammer bones? Since there is one on this farm and not in use now, wondering if I might used it for that/those purposes.


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## paintboy

wyld thang said:


> thank you. I simply was thinking of other people wanting to do this on the scale you portray, what kind of resources and energy does it take. You know trying to be helpful. Personally I use a pitchfork and a hoe and a wheelbarrow. I've been reading your thread, got lost for the last several pages and wanted to ask a question. Sheesh, first I get blasted for no interest, then I get blasted for asking a question.
> 
> I didn't say zero composting. Go back and read what I said.


you kind of asked a lot of questions which seemed to be loaded. Read the thread. I know it's long but there is a huge amount of valuable info and you will be able to answer most of your questions. I for one am grateful for furerunner and mudburn sharing how they do it. I see how hard they work for their farms and families and it inspires me to keep going knowing that there are like minded people out there.


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## Forerunner

Bluebird said:


> Forerunner,
> I was looking back on some of this post and noticed it looks like you have a hammermill that you use to schred leaves and hammer bones? Since there is one on this farm and not in use now, wondering if I might used it for that/those purposes.


Mine works great for bones. The only leaves I tried were just a tad damp. Worked until the screen plugged.
Mine is a heavy old Bear Cat, and handles large cow bones well.
If you've a lighter model, I'd start with smallish bones and work my way up to a cow leg. The process does make a fine bonemeal product, and I'm due to run a few barrels of dry bones.


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## wyld thang

paintboy said:


> you kind of asked a lot of questions which seemed to be loaded. Read the thread. I know it's long but there is a huge amount of valuable info and you will be able to answer most of your questions. I for one am grateful for furerunner and mudburn sharing how they do it. I see how hard they work for their farms and families and it inspires me to keep going knowing that there are like minded people out there.


loaded--I'm on another gardening forum which had a great thread on the economics in farming/selling/equipment costs/payback/scale etc. It was a great thread because people actually discussed the practical nuts and bolts--or, "the sustainability of theory", and I thought it would be a good question in this thread. At 14 pages it's getting unweildy to read through and gather info like this--it's always good to gather and sum up periodically in such a long thread anyways(unless, apparently, the wrong person asks the question).

but, whatever, this isn't the first thread I've been bucked off of for saying "count the cost before taking on responsibility".


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## wyld thang

THis is cool--methane midden
http://onestraw.wordpress.com/


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## mudburn

wyld thang said:


> but, whatever, this isn't the first thread I've been bucked off of for saying "count the cost before taking on responsibility".


Why are you of the opinion that such needs to be said? Maybe if you've been "bucked off" of threads for saying such before you should consider that it's not the question that is the problem. :frypan:

Perhaps in this case, you should have specifically asked about the sustainability of composting on the scale at hand, rather than for a list of assets. Both topics have been addressed in this thread, however, so it would have been a request to return to that part of the discussion.

mudburn


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## Forerunner

I am not in the slightest bit concerned about the sustainability of my current endeavor to collect, age and spread the material. I do this now in hopes that I will have three feet of super rich black that WILL be sustainable for generations to follow.

Simple as that.

Make hay while the sun is shining.

Wyld Thang..... if you'd like, point me to the gardening forum you mentioned.
I'd be glad to answer questions directly.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

I was inspired by this thread to compost my last batch of guts from my pig slaughter. In the past they have just been bagged and trashed. We tried burying sheep guts, but I believe foxes dug them up. This time I put 10 inches of wood chips in a 55 gallon barrel with some holes in the bottom, pig guts, then another 12 inches or so, it has been 40 days or so and the whole thing has settled down 12 inches and there was no odor, but a healthy bug population has colonized the compost. I am not in a big hurry to stir it up yet, but I am looking forward to it!


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## Guest

i am new to the thread, and promise to read it as time permits, (the last page was up on hubby's computer) but i feel i have some recent education of the financial sustainability issue that Wyld Thing is alluding too. The short answer is, i dont think that many of us are doing this to make a mountain of money, and there is a value to giving back to the land, and putting healthy food on the table. There is also for lack of a better term a hobby aspect to all of this, doing what you enjoy is a benefit to your health as well. I spent a lot of time in the early spring in classes teaching me how to grow a sustainable business, marketing, feasibility and teaching me how to calculate the cost of the veggies that i want to grow by figuring in all of my time, resources etc. Ha Ha... at the scale i am working on now, after composting, gardening, weeding, and marketing,does anyone want one of my $5.00 tomatoes? didnt think so.. but i can eat the tomatoes fresh, put them up for winter, teach my kids about the value of growing their own healthy food, get them outside,spend time with, and they learn value of hard work plus i dont have to buy my veggies at the market.
i agree that you need to "count the cost before taking on responsibility" but you seem to be assuming by saying that , that Forerunner hasnt done that, his system seems to work for them so i think he has it under control. Forerunner's not telling you that you need to compost the way that he does, but he is demonstrating that it can be done very well. 

Long story short: counting the cost is great but you also need to encourage the taking in to account the intangible benefits.


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## wyld thang

I already discussed "sustainability" with FR in another thread here on HT, I know what he thinks about that. And like he said, he's not concerned so I'm not going to bring it into this thread. 

Does his farm sales support his equipment. yes or no. I think we all know the discussion on farming subsidies, grants and etc "hiding" a sinkhole of debt for farmers who sell their product. If FR can sell enough to pay for his equipment, maintenance and fuel costs, then that is cool and it should be shared as a workable model--and what does it take to do it, so others can replicate. It's a simple question that every failed farmer failed to ask.

On my end we have a bulldozer we use for logging(mostly firewood, 5 cords a year of hardwoods), a bit of land clearing, road maintenance etc. Since we got it so cheap($500, 1954 td-14), and my husband does all fixing(it is def held together with baling wire and duct tape!), the savings we get with heating from wood more than pays for it. Not to mention the thing is money on the hoof for scrap.

I dont' have money to buy a tractor, etc. Especially to buy one with enough power/beef for what we'd use it for. Most of the stuff people end up using their hobby farm tractors for I do quite fine with a post hole digger, shovel, wheebarrel etc. At this point I grow for my own family. I have the room to do a small farmer's market type garden, which I'm considering. On the other hand there would be tax issues since we are zoned forest, putting land into sold production for other than timber puts it into the higher ag tax bracket and back taxes are also due retroactively--which makes the market garden not workable. Which then leads me to selling a value added product, ie something like canned chutney, BBQ sauce, etc--licensing my kitchen would take far less cost than paying back taxes.

My dad was an engineer at Boeing who made sure the planes actually flew. He was at constant odds with the design engineers making up trick stuff he had to fix to make it fly. Guess that's where I get my questioning nature.

Matthew, it's a shame you're passing up fine haggis there(wink)


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## wyld thang

idigpotatoes said:


> i am new to the thread, and promise to read it as time permits, (the last page was up on hubby's computer) but i feel i have some recent education of the financial sustainability issue that Wyld Thing is alluding too. The short answer is, i dont think that many of us are doing this to make a mountain of money, and there is a value to giving back to the land, and putting healthy food on the table. There is also for lack of a better term a hobby aspect to all of this, doing what you enjoy is a benefit to your health as well. I spent a lot of time in the early spring in classes teaching me how to grow a sustainable business, marketing, feasibility and teaching me how to calculate the cost of the veggies that i want to grow by figuring in all of my time, resources etc. Ha Ha... at the scale i am working on now, after composting, gardening, weeding, and marketing,does anyone want one of my $5.00 tomatoes? didnt think so.. but i can eat the tomatoes fresh, put them up for winter, teach my kids about the value of growing their own healthy food, get them outside,spend time with, and they learn value of hard work plus i dont have to buy my veggies at the market.
> i agree that you need to "count the cost before taking on responsibility" but you seem to be assuming by saying that , that Forerunner hasnt done that, his system seems to work for them so i think he has it under control. Forerunner's not telling you that you need to compost the way that he does, but he is demonstrating that it can be done very well.
> 
> Long story short: counting the cost is great but you also need to encourage the taking in to account the intangible benefits.


Thank you 

I'm not saying FR hasn't counted the cost, just maybe how does it work for him. He doesn't have an off farm job that I know of--so obviously he supports how he does things otherwise in a smart manner. You can't pay for gas with cabbages, unless he's got a sweet deal with that too--I know he's really good with bartering and foraging. Money has to come into it at some point, in this world we are in right now, more so for most of us.

I agree there are many intangible rewards. That's why I use a shovel and dont' whine to my husband to buy me a tiller.


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## Guest

I am not sure what you are thanking me for, i was pointing out there is more to life than money, i am still moving ahead with my gardening business but i am starting small, i am selling at a loss, only after i figure myself at a living wage but since i wasnt getting paid to stay home anyway, i take my pay in other ways. Like the beautiful weather and the people i met sitting at the farmer's market) My understanding is that Forerunner has alot of his equipment from a previous endeavor, so why not make use of it. We all have to work with what we have, we cut and split 5 acres of wood too but with a 2 wheel barrows, a chain saw and a logsplitter that we borrow for one weekend a year. The question is not what tools does he use and how much did they cost, the question is.. is his (and your family,and my family) living in a lifestyle that works for the family. and for some lucky folks money comes in to the picture very infrequently, but thats a choice that each family makes too. its not about what you have its about how well you use it. that to me is sustainabilty and i hope Forerunner agrees with that. 

okay so i have strayed a little ways off of composting. back to learning about composting... which for me means to the top of the thread.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

it is highly unlikly you will be doing more than 2-3 acres till able without a tractor any way 

composting is a nessaesaty to organic production of food , i was recently looking at a planting schedule for a 100 box csa they were calling for compost anualy spread at a rate of 10,000 pounds or 5 ton per acer then they roto spaded it in. this seemed the norm for produce farming 

weighing what forerunner spends to keep 10 acres tillable it weighs out quite well compared to purchasing a nitrogen fertilizer and the equiptment to handle it 
obviosly this is why we rarely see a row crop operation of less than 500+ acers that is were they need to be to start seing the proffit outweigh the costs.

the oil argument while forerunner did give the same refrence to Joeseph Jenkins book that i was thinking of , leaks from equiptment should be extreemly minamal , or one would go broke purchasing hydrolic fluid a pin prick is a gieser at 2300psi

you should deffinitly read the humanure hand book , his research even talks about heavy metals , microbes ave to be some of the coolest creatures on earth , there are microbes that can break down and eat just about everything imaginable they have even identified a oil eating mircrobe , they appear naturaly in tiny quanitys and are cultured out for use in oil cleanup , but if you have truly live soil like an active compost they sould be thier abundantly.

wild thing how much actual square footage can you cover with just a shovel and no tiller while i am sure 43560 sq feet or 1 acre is possable with no tiller is surely would be very time consuming. 
i find 4500 sqare feet of garden is not even enough to feed us and would be days of tourning with a shovel we have a 18 inch wide 7 hp rear time tiller and wouldn't be without it. in 1/2 gallon of gas and and about 1.5 hours or so i can turn the garden each spring i actualy use it more than that with multiple crops of different things. if your time is worth something then there may be a large net savings to getting a tiller. 
i like intangable benifits but hiring myself to myself as slave labor isn't one i find benefit in. 

and yes you can pay for gas with cabage , corn , or any other cash crop. and that is exactly what agriculture does every day small or large scale , the trick is to figure out how to buy , use , maintain and maintain your equiptment , land and self so that you can have money left over as a profit to grow , buy things you don't make or the raw materials for things you do make, savings, durable goods and maybe have a little left over for somthing nice for the family to enjoy.


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## ChristieAcres

We don't have a working tractor, a dump truck, or any heavy equipment. Due to Len's work experience, we intend to get needed equipment to suit our goals for this property. That will happen in time when resources can provide. Yes, it is important the heavy equipment be well maintained and the ability to fix it is becoming more critical. My grandfather maintained, fixed, and welded his heavy equipment. He learned the basics and did fine. Len, being a Machinist/Welder with a complete Shop, is even set up better to maintain and repair, with the work experience, already. I had read an article about "Any one being able to weld," and it is true, as long as there are no health issues preventing it. Why not barter maintenance & repair with a machinist/welder if you don't have the skills? Len barters regularly with others, machining parts, and repairing equipment. He is trading labor for labor, fabricating boat parts right now. The other guy is a Carpenter. Next week, he is lengthening camper jacks in trade for a vintage boat motor. 

In everything I have read written by Forerunner, he is encouraging every one in his or her own given circumstances to compost as much as possible, knowing we are each limited by our unique circumstance (be it financially, skillset, or health). It would be great if we all had heavy equipment, but that isn't realistic. Being resourceful with what you have is! Since I am the composter here, I'd be silly to assume I could physically do what he does. If I had access to heavy equipment, a little more realistic to aspire more. That doesn't leave me discouraged one bit, but motivated for me to do what I can, with what I have, and establish a goal to become steadily efficient.

I am happily composting away, towing my little garden wagon (that dumps), with our riding lawnmower (that was free). I wield a shovel, too. Waste is being transformed into a resource I can use, resulting in an increase in our harvests. All the manure from our chickens and rabbits is being utilized. I don't see DH currently enveloped in the "compost passion" Forerunner has. In time, DH's interest will be further drawn into being more involved. When that occurs, our little world will start rockin'

Like wyldthang, our zoning is a consideration. In WA, our property can be RP (Rural Protected which is Residential also), Forest, or Agricultural. It is currently RP and 6.68 acres. We could get a Zoning Exemption putting 5 acres in Forest, keeing the remaining 1.68 RP (that could come back to bite us later (like wyldthang pointed out- back taxes if we changed it again). It takes 3 years of producing income from just about any farming endeavor (low like $500/yr). Once that 3 years is up, we can get the Agricultural Exemption. We have one year to go. This is the best choice for us due to our intended use. We will be taking down some more trees, but want to keep at least 4 acres in forest. I can certainly understand the dilemna zoning presents. In addition, I can totally relate to the financial restrictions to buy heavy equipment DH & I would really like to have. It isn't realistic to have fields here for gardening purposes. Our "forest garden" as it has been aptly termed, works for our climate. I aspire to make it larger, bed by bed, and am accomplishing that.

Back to compost. We have a few neighbors with horses. Even though we can't go get the manure, they will drop it off. By composting and using this, we are helping them and ourselves at the same time. Each opportunity for this is a blessing. I'd welcome compost materials dropped off here for us to use & transform. 

This thread lit a fire under me!


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## wyld thang

So, to answer my curiousity about what kind of equipment FR uses to process his compost, a skim comes up with

bulldozer
backhoe
big tractor
little tractor
bone crusher/feed mill
I'm assuming a wood chipper
I see three trailers in a photo(?)
manure spreader(?)
tilling stuff(?)

bulldozers--as you know FR size matters with dozers. so what is it? ok, just found it--it's so cute!

now this is probably off topic, but what kind of wear and tear do you get on your tractors using them as a motor vehicle on the pavement? (ie using it under load on a surface that it was not designed to be primarily run on--ie you run 4-lo on pavement you will ruin it, I know tractors are "different", but still--around here plenty of equiment is moved around all the time on the roads, they NEVER are pulling a load, or are hauled by Truck n trailer).

what are your trailers rated to haul? are you required to license trailers you use on highway(here trailers that haul "big" loads and over certain dimensions are required to be licensed)--just curious, because DL/vehicle licensing is an issue with you(and I just couldn't help it), COol trailer you built from the semi trailer.

Actually, yes, it would be helpful for you to list your equipment and its size horsepower etc, pros and cons of how its use has worked out. SO MUCH headache can be avoided if people can buy the right piece of equipment in the first place. I've seen so many people waste money buying crap tractors(and etc) until they figure out what kind of power they really need for what jobs.

You stated the money from scrap sales and "heavy equipment work" supports fuel and parts/tires cost. I'm assuming the heavy equipment work is done for other people? Are you bartering goods? How do you deal with liability? Just hope nothing ever happens?

How are you set up to power your welder? Just curious because I think I remember you run with generators, you're not on the grid. How is that working out to use an alternative power source to weld/machine?

frank has fun tools too


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## Forerunner

You're fairly close with the equipment rundown.
I have no real experience with the pocket tractor loaders, but am quite fond of my 60ish horsepower JD 3010. I would recommend a 2010 or 2020 Deere with loader for normal big garden/small farm composting _at the least_.

The dozer and hoe are residual from my hard core career days, and they're both in decent shape, but showing age.

I lost the manure spreader in the fire, but find that building compost piles directly on the field where they will be spread to be highly advantageous, if you can do without a crop for a year. The tea that comes off the piles soaks right into the field, AND I have found the common bulldozer to be the most highly efficient means of spreading and incorporating compost on and into a field. (A rear tine ripper is fairly simple to install.)

No licensing requirements for farm implements here.
My trailers are rated to haul more than I generally do.
I like heavy axles and bearings.
I do work on my own equipment as a rule and have some very handy friends and extended family with professional know how and parts contacts for both Deere and Case. I reckon every little bit helps.

Liability ? I'm always out in the woods or fields when I do equipment work and I only work for about a half dozen larger farmers anymore. They know me, my work, and my passions, and they want to help, and they _do_.

I have long had a portable welder/generator in the shop.
The old one burned, and, as soon as I was able, I bought another.

As for using tractors on the highway, there are no issues involving design incompatibility for that purpose. An hour is an hour on a tractor.
I'm not pulling near as hard as I would be in the field with a six bottom plow, or even a five..... or, probably not even as hard as a four bottom....
When things break, we mechanic. When tires wear out, we replace them.
When the sun is shining, we make hay.


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## wyld thang

thanks!


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## pointer33

Well, I have on and off been reading this thread....often when I get on the forums here, I do not bother to log on as I rarely ever comment on anything. Somehow after reading the posts of late I just felt compelled to let you know Forerunner, that I too appreciate you being such a sharing person with your endeavors. I guess I am a private enough person that I would probably feel uncomfortable exposing as much info about myself on the net. We do not really have much privacy anymore anyway suppose..if you really examine it. But, none the less, my hat is off to you as you inspire us with your example. I find your posts interesting as I ponder the day I might take a jump and make the CSA model work for me. And of course most Community Sponsored Agriculture ventures are interested in all things compost


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## Forerunner

Thank you, Pointer.

I read an old book once that had a lot to say, but two things stuck with me.
The first was, "Whatever you put your hand to in your life of vanity, do it with all thy might."
The second was to not put my light under a bushel, or something like that.

I've taken a few knocks for putting myself out there, and will likely take more, but someone had to stand up and get this ball rolling.


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## michelleIL

Forerunner said:


> Thank you, Pointer.
> 
> I read an old book once that had a lot to say, but two things stuck with me.
> The first was, "Whatever you put your hand to in your life of vanity, do it with all thy might."
> The second was to not put my light under a bushel, or something like that.
> 
> I've taken a few knocks for putting myself out there, and will likely take more, but someone had to stand up and get this ball rolling.


keep readin' that ole book!


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## Guest

so reading on and off it took me 3 days to read the most inspiring thread on HT.
the questions becomes how do you rehab two pretty sad , buggy, compost tubs in to a glorious pile, that wont offend the neighbors during the rehabbing? we bought those tubs (pre-HT) in an effort to be "green", and they just dont seem to get the job done? does the fenced in little area work for you small scale composters?


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## Forerunner

Pallets work well.
Straw bales work great.... as an impromptu, disposable compost bin.

Add (and mix well) some grass clippings and sawdust, half and half, or well bedded horse manure, to any pile that needs a boost in size and attitude.


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## jlrbhjmnc

Greenhorn composting continues! Our latest grandbaby was born on 1 June, YAY!, so we've been a bit busy with his big sister and mother, etc. (Mom and baby are blessedly healthy, thanks be to God.) I haven't yet visited the horse/sheep lady or the cattle farm for manure, so we are making do with green manure.

Since my first photo of our pile, I've been adding our kitchen scraps, cooking water, garden trimmings, shredded paper and newspaper and cardboard. I also used our electric weed eater to mow down a portion of the tall grass in our yard, raked it up and added it to the pile. Today, dear SIL mowed our back slope. It was sunny and hot and the storms stayed north and east of us so I took advantage and raked up the grass for our attempt to build a pile big enough to heat up. I used a rake, a plastic storage tub/bin to tote the grass up the hill and a bucket for the rocks (one advantage to my method is you can pick rocks out of your land as you rake :grin.

Pile in earlier photo:









Pile today:


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## kens

Looks good keep it going.


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## Trisha in WA

Jennifer, that pile looks GREAT! I kind of like the idea of putting paper or cardboard on top too. Keeps the sun out and the moisture in.
Way to go!


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## Trisha in WA

The old homestead barn we are using had some old (but still green?) alfalfa on the floor of the barn and several bales of grass hay from last year in the loft. The roof leaks pretty bad, so some of the grass hay is moldy.
I honestly got excited by the fact we will get to use it on the compost! Normally I have more trouble getting enough carbon to go with all the wet cow manure. So, this is really great! I am taking out the alfalfa only as needed when it gets soiled so as to use it like a bedding. Once I have that all cleaned out, and have wood chips put in there, I will use the grass hay to cover the manure as it goes on the compost pile. 
What a blessing! I LOVE FREE CARBON!


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## dancingfatcat

So sorry to sound needy or simple minded but I want to make sure I'm doing my "pile" correctly. I started with paper and cardboard on the bottom and have been layering with grass clippings/shavings-rabbit bedding/coffee grounds, leafs. and watering on occasion as it gets hot here.

Sooooo, am I doing this the right way???? Do I need to turn it? When do I start a new pile? Forerunner, I have gone over and over your directions but I am still not quite sure...............help!!!


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## jlrbhjmnc

Forerunner has had a little problem with electrical on the homestead. I'm sure he'll be responding as soon as he can.


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## mistletoad

dancingfatcat said:


> So sorry to sound needy or simple minded but I want to make sure I'm doing my "pile" correctly. I started with paper and cardboard on the bottom and have been layering with grass clippings/shavings-rabbit bedding/coffee grounds, leafs. and watering on occasion as it gets hot here.
> 
> Sooooo, am I doing this the right way???? Do I need to turn it? When do I start a new pile? Forerunner, I have gone over and over your directions but I am still not quite sure...............help!!!


How big is your pile now? If it is less than 3'x3'x3' keep building it. If it is bigger than that already check how hot it is inside. If it was hot and is now cooling off, turn it. Of course you can just let it sit if you want to - it will compost in time. Turning and getting it hot just speeds up the process and helps to kill weed seeds. If you are after hot composting and like toys, get a compost thermometer.

Start a new pile when your first pile is 3'x3'x3' - a compost heap is only as old as its most recent addition.


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## jlrbhjmnc

FREE STUFF . Hubby spotted two local yards with piles of freshly cut grass. The homes are for sale and vacant so the grass had gotten quite high before being cut. Yesterday we loaded up the rake and some bags and picked up the FREE green manure in between pet sitting jobs. For about 45 minutes' work, we had 8 big garbage bags stuffed with fresh-cut grass. We added this to the pile, layering it with shredded paper, egg cartons and newspaper, wetting each layer as we worked. And we improved the look of both properties :teehee:.


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## paintboy

I love those free finds. Around here many people will bag it up and leave it by the street for me.


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## Freya

jlrbhjmnc said:


> FREE STUFF . Hubby spotted two local yards with piles of freshly cut grass. The homes are for sale and vacant so the grass had gotten quite high before being cut. Yesterday we loaded up the rake and some bags and picked up the FREE green manure in between pet sitting jobs. For about 45 minutes' work, we had 8 big garbage bags stuffed with fresh-cut grass. We added this to the pile, layering it with shredded paper, egg cartons and newspaper, wetting each layer as we worked. And we improved the look of both properties :teehee:.



:thumb:


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## ChristieAcres

I wanted to chirp in that adding Comfrey Leaves to your compost pile is an igniter. This great Herb should be on every homestead! That is just one thing I am using it for. I was asked recently what I could possibly do with (40) Comfrey Plants...also if I knew how big they get, etc... I'll interject here, this type doesn't set seed, and all are in dedicated garden spots TO STAY. That is kind of important as they develop deep tap roots. 

Yes, they get to be sizable, and you bet they produce a LOT OF LEAVES. I was moved to plant so many here, primarily being the influence of our Forerunner's compost passion. I can also use Comfrey medicinally, as fertilizer (in tea form), feed it to our chickens & rabbits. Comfrey Salve is wonderful stuff!

You can't beat FREE grass clippings, either  That is the great thing about utilizing what you can, others don't want. It reduces "waste." That is what composting is all about, turning waste into a rich byproduct completely usable.


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## wyld thang

dancingfatcat said:


> So sorry to sound needy or simple minded but I want to make sure I'm doing my "pile" correctly. I started with paper and cardboard on the bottom and have been layering with grass clippings/shavings-rabbit bedding/coffee grounds, leafs. and watering on occasion as it gets hot here.
> 
> Sooooo, am I doing this the right way???? Do I need to turn it? When do I start a new pile? Forerunner, I have gone over and over your directions but I am still not quite sure...............help!!!


(I"m know I'm not Forerunner but...) you put down a layer of paper cardboard on the soil then other stuff. Since that paper will take a bit to break down(depending on how wet it is) and is a barrier to soil organisms(they'll have to get through the paper first...) put a few shovel fulls of good dirt every few layers or so(or a least a few midpile) to "innoculate" the pile and get it going faster. Of course it's really nice if your shovels of added dirt have worms too. This will also help if you are making the pile atop poor soil, or hardpack. If you just have bad dirt it's worth taking a sunday drive with a few 5 gallon buckets in search of healthy soil to bring home.

Healthy soil supports a variety of plants, in a "mature" stage, such as a forest/woods with trees and shrubs and herby things(varying ages, the trees just need to be up and vigorous, not neccessarily "old growth"), or meadow/prarie/savannah with variety of grasses and wildflowers, etc. It has kajillion little bugs, worms, and fungus. Soil with the "weeds" such as thistle, dock, plantain, dandelion etc is at that point sick and depleted and those weeds are part of the natural process of rebuilding soil. (ie those weeds deserve some respect).

ALthough if your compost pile is hot then you'll cook your worms...I just don't do hot compost.


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## RedneckPete

I kinda asked the same questions as wild thing a couple months back.

I resigned myself to the fact that I would respect the extreme composters for their extreme ambition and work ethic, while at the same time realizing that from any traditional viewpoint their economic model makes no rational sense whatsoever.

Pete


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## sleeping_gecko

RedneckPete said:


> I kinda asked the same questions as wild thing a couple months back.
> 
> I resigned myself to the fact that I would respect the extreme composters for their extreme ambition and work ethic, while at the same time realizing that from any traditional viewpoint their economic model makes no rational sense whatsoever.
> 
> Pete


Taking free (or, in some cases, extremely cheap) materials and using them as natural (and highly effective) fertilizer (after a period of time) to enrich the soil and improve the food supply?

Seems to make a lot of sense to me. If I had a lot of land with crop fields, that's what I'd be doing. Beats expensive, hazardous, and short-lived chemicals anyday.

Plus, methheads probably wouldn't steal compost like they do anhydrous ammonia!


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## mudburn

RedneckPete said:


> I resigned myself to the fact that I would respect the extreme composters for their extreme ambition and work ethic, while at the same time realizing that from any traditional viewpoint their economic model makes no rational sense whatsoever.
> 
> Pete


You're right, Pete. Extreme composting of the sort discussed here doesn't make economic sense from any traditional viewpoint. Of course, that isn't the most important or deciding factor in whether or not such endeavors are worth pursuing. To apply the same reasoning, it makes no rational sense whatsoever to grow my own food.

Personally, I don't seek affirmation from any traditional viewpoint to justify my endeavors. There are a lot more factors than economics (which is not the most important one, BTW) to be considered in how I employ my time, labor, and resources.

mudburn


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## mudburn

dancingfatcat said:


> So sorry to sound needy or simple minded but I want to make sure I'm doing my "pile" correctly. I started with paper and cardboard on the bottom and have been layering with grass clippings/shavings-rabbit bedding/coffee grounds, leafs. and watering on occasion as it gets hot here.
> 
> Sooooo, am I doing this the right way???? Do I need to turn it? When do I start a new pile? Forerunner, I have gone over and over your directions but I am still not quite sure...............help!!!


I have been waiting for Forerunner to be back online, but I'm glad to see that Wyld Thang addressed your questions.

I'm no expert on composting. I'm approaching it like I do many things: it's a natural process that God designed, and it works. One of the main criteria I judge my piles by is smell -- if it stinks, it needs more carbon.

Based upon your description of your pile, it sounds like it will work, to me. Cardboard and paper on the bottom really shouldn't pose any problems. Once it's wet, the worms and other little buggers will begin breaking it down quite quickly. The rabbit manure in the bedding adds a lot of good bacterial/microbes to get the process going.

I don't worry about how much a pile heats up. If you want worms to do most of the work, then you do need to take heat into consideration. The thermophilic bacteria and worms can work in conjunction, the worms working on the outside and cooler regions (they are quite able to find the right places). You can add worms, or you can let them find your pile (they are quite capable of this, too). The degree to which your pile heats up will depend partly on its size -- smaller piles have less mass and insulation so that they don't heat up the same as a larger pile. Where that magic line for heat vs. size is, I don't really know.

So, the main thing I would say about your pile, dancingfatcat, is to make sure you have enough carbon material. You might have that from the rabbit bedding. If you have dry grass clippings, that also works as carbon material (as does paper and cardboard). If the pile stinks, you need more carbon.

You can turn a small pile fairly easily with a pitchfork. You don't have to. The thing you gain is that it lessens the amount of time to finish the composting process. If you don't turn it, it will still make compost, it'll just take a while longer.

mudburn


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## MullersLaneFarm

mudburn said:


> Personally, I don't seek affirmation from any traditional viewpoint to justify my endeavors. There are a lot more factors than economics (which is not the most important one, BTW) to be considered in how I employ my time, labor, and resources.
> mudburn


:thumb:

The validation from my family and like minded souls is plenty for me


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## wyld thang

mudburn said:


> I
> Based upon your description of your pile, it sounds like it will work, to me. Cardboard and paper on the bottom really shouldn't pose any problems. Once it's wet, the worms and other little buggers will begin breaking it down quite quickly. The rabbit manure in the bedding adds a lot of good bacterial/microbes to get the process going.
> 
> mudburn


or maybe not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gley_soil

in any case, it pays to know your soil make up, the moisture level, etc, even if you're going to plop a compost pile on it. We can't assume everyone has the same conditions. Even here, where I get 80+ inches of rain a year(you'd think that woudl be prime...), layers of cardboard/paper with lots of stuff piled on top of naturally acidic clay soil has a hard time breaking down--better to shred it and mix it in with other stuff.


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## wyld thang

mudburn said:


> You're right, Pete. Extreme composting of the sort discussed here doesn't make economic sense from any traditional viewpoint. Of course, that isn't the most important or deciding factor in whether or not such endeavors are worth pursuing. To apply the same reasoning, it makes no rational sense whatsoever to grow my own food.
> 
> Personally, I don't seek affirmation from any traditional viewpoint to justify my endeavors. There are a lot more factors than economics (which is not the most important one, BTW) to be considered in how I employ my time, labor, and resources.
> 
> mudburn


the model in this thread is a few people practicing ongoing hoarding of compost resources from a wide land area. Meanwhile, the land the materials were taken from do not benefit from those composting resources. Stuff is concentrated in a few areas. The question I like to ask with a method (in this case my "issue" is hoarding) is can it be done with everybody doing it. After all, don't y'all want everyone to compost? In the future a lot more everybody will be (forced) to grow their own and heal the land. Ongoing hoarding is unsustainable--it is indeed unworkable on a large scale. 

I think it's entirely worthwhile to consider an action against traditional "viewpoints" such as conservation, "social justice" (for a lack of a better word--I just mean hoarding takes resources out of the hands of other people, or makes them fight for them), sharing, knowledge of the cycles of the land, even things like gluttony come into play. 

Again, the simple question, can everyone in an area do this(hoard and concentrate materials from hither and yon). Obviously no. Does nature do this? no. 

That is not to say there isn't a lot of good composting science going on in this thread, albeit a "little" weighted towards upper midwest climate and plants etc. Nor am I saying it's "wrong" to gather stuff to jumpstart some sick land. Just stating IMO that this action of "extreme composting"(ongoing hoarding) is the action of an elite few among their village to concentrate composting wealth. 

Whoever can decide for themselves if that is traditionally affirmative, or even worth thinking about. I'm glad to see a few have.


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## wyld thang

MullersLaneFarm said:


> :thumb:
> 
> The validation from my family and like minded souls is plenty for me


Lots of "not so nice" things are perpetuated with validation from like minded souls.


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## jlrbhjmnc

Oh, my. If I recall correctly, earlier in the thread (or one of the FR compost threads, anyway) Forerunner described cleaning up a highway and its shoulders after a flood, saving the taxpayers money, the state/county crews time that could be used in other areas and composting material that had been headed for a landfill. He has described being careful about tidying up areas where he loads so that drainage is appropriate. Mudburn assisted a business with recovery after flooding, again composting material that would have been offloaded in a landfill and also being careful to leave things thoughtfully tidy and workable. I don't think recovering materials set for landfill disposal is hoarding. Even where the material MIGHT be composted by the government entity, composting by private individuals conserves resources for even more composting by the town/county, i.e. the private composter makes good use of the material and there is always more for the municipal composting program, so even more composting and less landfill use is the result. Farms are being created or improved, food is being grown, animals are being raised and slaughtered humanely. That's a good result. If folks start clamoring for the stuff at the sale barn or flooded highway, then I could see the possibility of hoarding, but so far we're talking about material headed for non-productive disposal.


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## paintboy

I second jilbhjmnc's opinion. When I bring home several pickup truck loads of bagged leaves every fall I'm simply using what was going to take up space in a land fill. In a small way I'm helping the community by easing the burden of the waste management crews. I don't do it for that reason but don't mind that it happens.


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## wyld thang

So is anybody hammering the county government to change their wicked wasteful ways? In our county yard debri and road maintenance slash is collected and composted (or the crews will dump freshly chipped stuff on your land for you for free if they are working near you), then the compost is sold and basically goes back out where it came from. Yard debri etc is NOT accepted at the county landfill--you try to bring it in and you are turned away. Trees come down people fight over them for firewood. If a person wants to learn how to compost the WOW (Western Oregon Waste) people have handouts and will show you their compost operation. Which is HUGE. They use pipes through the piles to heat their offices etc.

so,,,there were enough people who cared in our county and made a stink and changed things. They do this in the suburbs/city of Portland as well, so it's not just a rural thing--although the rural road guys are def more flexible in giving away free slash. Sure the county/WOW makes a profit from selling the compost--it's all kept out of the landfill and it goes back to enrich at least some of the land it came from. If you want to compost yourself they will educate you, and if you make friends with them they'll give you free stuff when they are trimming on your road.


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## Trisha in WA

wyld thang,
western OR and western WA are way ahead of the curve when it comes to recycling and composting. Personally I appreciate what these extreme composters are doing. This is "unwanted" material that would otherwise fill their local landfill. I am willing to be that if someone needed a truck load of compost and did not have the means to make it themselves that forerunner or mudburn or many of the others here would be more than happy to share. 
Is it really hording to take an underutilized valuable resource and use it for your own good...oh yeah, and share the knowledge of how to do it with as many others as will listen? I don't think so.
Trisha~who is now in eastern WA and realizing just how far ahead of the curve western WA really is in its eco efforts.


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## wyld thang

Trisha in WA said:


> wyld thang,
> western OR and western WA are way ahead of the curve when it comes to recycling and composting. Personally I appreciate what these extreme composters are doing. This is "unwanted" material that would otherwise fill their local landfill. I am willing to be that if someone needed a truck load of compost and did not have the means to make it themselves that forerunner or mudburn or many of the others here would be more than happy to share.
> Is it really hording to take an underutilized valuable resource and use it for your own good...oh yeah, and share the knowledge of how to do it with as many others as will listen? I don't think so.
> Trisha~who is now in eastern WA and realizing just how far ahead of the curve western WA really is in its eco efforts.


I hear ya, but y'all aren't getting what I'm saying--replicating composting concentrating huge amounts of stuff is not feasible on an everybody doing it scale. There just ain't the huge amounts of stuff to go around. Maybe if people rotated who gets what...

Then there is the basic principle in nature that what grows up falls down...and that is "enough". It works. That principle can be built upon for farming(and will have to be, in the future). So slash is being removed from roadsides/cleared land. That is stuff that is not falling down to nourish the land, whatever land it grew on. Someday that will bite someone in the butt. Like Forerunner, someone before him removed biomass form his land and depleted it and now Forerunner is working to fix the result of that broken cycle on his land. If he indeed gives away a lot of compost, or sells it(he is sure welcome to make a buck on that btw) he is not robbing Peter to pay Paul to concentrate that wealth on his land for his lifetime for his benefit. The question that is hard to answer (and will have to be answered someday) is _how much is enough_. Americans are so stuck on "more is better". I know it's dumb to argue this with something so sacred as compost...

Anyways, Oregon and WA are "ahead of the curve" because ENOUGH people cared. Critical mass. Or, maybe more importantly, it pencils out on paper for the county to run a composting business and keep yard debri out of the landfill. And now we're back to that nasty economic value...


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## mudburn

wyld thang said:


> the model in this thread is a few people practicing ongoing hoarding of compost resources from a wide land area.



You have a hoarding issue. Those are your issues and are not applicable to what's been described in this thread. To help you work through them, if you're willing, I'll describe again what's going on, since you seem to have missed it in this ongoing discussion.

First:


> hoard [ hawrd ] (_past and past participle_ hoardÂ·ed, _present participle_ hoardÂ·ing, _3rd person present singular_ hoards)
> 
> transitive and intransitive verb
> Definition: *store a supply of something: *to collect and store, often secretly, large amounts of things such as food or money for future use


Neither my piles nor Forerunners are secret or hidden. We both do indeed collect large amounts of 'stuff' for future use. However, you seem to imply a competition for this 'stuff' in which we are beating out others in order to collect it. In both cases, I can assure you, that is not the case. The material I have collected has mainly come from the local sale barn. People are quite willing to sell them their cows, but there is only a handful of people in the county who desire the "waste" material enough to come get it. A local man with a dump truck is paid $50 per load to haul it off and dump it, wherever he can find to dump it. Is it used or wasted? Some of both. Everyone in the county has the same access to the piles as I do. The man who works there is just as willing to use his skid loader to load their vehicles as he is mine. So, why does the pile sit there for weeks at a time only to be hauled off and dumped somewhere, treated as waste, not a resource? If I put forth effort to make something useful out of this wasted resource, rather than see it be wasted, I become a hoarder (with negative connotations implied)?

Am I in competition with others for this resource? Not so you would notice. Others do not show up to get it. I do. When someone else does, I back off and let them have it. If someone wants finished compost from my piles (when they are finished), they are welcome to have it. I've offered it to several people. Forerunner gladly gives away compost. I have hauled several truck loads for others from the sale barn and have others to haul for when they're ready for it.

The simple fact is that 98% (my estimate) of the people in this county do not consider compostable materials a resource; to them it's a waste. For example, a local power company had several trees trimmed and the branches chipped. This crew dumped a few loads on the property of a man I know. He asked a friend of mine if he wanted some of the chips. When my friend said yes, the guy said that he'd wait until he got some before he burned the rest.

Do I want others/everyone to compost? Yes, of course. When/if that happens, will I continue to haul tons of the 'stuff' home from the sale barn? No. But until then, I will haul it away and make compost with it rather than let it go to waste. 

Can extreme composting be done with everyone doing it? Yes, of course. The extreme part isn't really about the size of the piles; it is about a radical approach to reclaiming and recycling "waste" products. If you don't take an "extreme" view of things, you don't see the possibilities. So, like happens in my county, the pile of cow crap isn't compost waiting to happen, it's something to be hauled off and dumped somewhere.

Is extreme composting "natural"? Yes and no. Nature composts material regardless of the size of the pile. It's the way God made things to work. However, it's rare to find large stores of compostable material naturally occurring. You also need to realize that for the material to be collected at the sale barn or at a yard waste dump is unnatural. It is also unnatural for it to be hauled off and dumped in a ravine or over a ridge after being unnaturally collected. At least when we haul it home, let it compost, and then spread it on our fields, it is no longer a wasted resource, and it is returning something to part of the land in our respective counties.

No one claimed that what we're doing is sustainable. Composting is sustainable, but using trucks and tractors to haul in and build compost piles is not something that can continue indefinitely. While the opportunity exists and the material would otherwise go to waste, I'm going to continue collecting it and composting it. To let the manure from the sale barn, the leaves and grass clippings at the yard waste dump, the sawdust from the sawmill, etc. go to waste and not become a useful resource to help restore the fertility of the soil because it is "unsustainable" is an idiotic notion. It is a more sustainable practice than what would happen (and what does happen) to most of the compostable material around here, I'm afraid, because I can only haul so much.

So, to recap. Your issues are your own. Deal with them. I think they are silly and not founded in the reality of the situation in my part of the world. If you wish to investigate the situation so that you can comment on it with knowledge, please do so. Perhaps then you won't have the same issues.

mudburn


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## wyld thang

mudburn said:


> You have a hoarding issue. Those are your issues and are not applicable to what's been described in this thread. To help you work through them, if you're willing, I'll describe again what's going on, since you seem to have missed it in this ongoing discussion.
> 
> First:
> Neither my piles nor Forerunners are secret or hidden. We both do indeed collect large amounts of 'stuff' for future use. However, you seem to imply a competition for this 'stuff' in which we are beating out others in order to collect it. In both cases, I can assure you, that is not the case. The material I have collected has mainly come from the local sale barn. People are quite willing to sell them their cows, but there is only a handful of people in the county who desire the "waste" material enough to come get it. A local man with a dump truck is paid $50 per load to haul it off and dump it, wherever he can find to dump it. Is it used or wasted? Some of both. Everyone in the county has the same access to the piles as I do. The man who works there is just as willing to use his skid loader to load their vehicles as he is mine. So, why does the pile sit there for weeks at a time only to be hauled off and dumped somewhere, treated as waste, not a resource? If I put forth effort to make something useful out of this wasted resource, rather than see it be wasted, I become a hoarder (with negative connotations implied)?
> 
> Am I in competition with others for this resource? Not so you would notice. Others do not show up to get it. I do. When someone else does, I back off and let them have it. If someone wants finished compost from my piles (when they are finished), they are welcome to have it. I've offered it to several people. Forerunner gladly gives away compost. I have hauled several truck loads for others from the sale barn and have others to haul for when they're ready for it.
> 
> The simple fact is that 98% (my estimate) of the people in this county do not consider compostable materials a resource; to them it's a waste. For example, a local power company had several trees trimmed and the branches chipped. This crew dumped a few loads on the property of a man I know. He asked a friend of mine if he wanted some of the chips. When my friend said yes, the guy said that he'd wait until he got some before he burned the rest.
> 
> Do I want others/everyone to compost? Yes, of course. When/if that happens, will I continue to haul tons of the 'stuff' home from the sale barn? No. But until then, I will haul it away and make compost with it rather than let it go to waste.
> 
> Can extreme composting be done with everyone doing it? Yes, of course. The extreme part isn't really about the size of the piles; it is about a radical approach to reclaiming and recycling "waste" products. If you don't take an "extreme" view of things, you don't see the possibilities. So, like happens in my county, the pile of cow crap isn't compost waiting to happen, it's something to be hauled off and dumped somewhere.
> 
> Is extreme composting "natural"? Yes and no. Nature composts material regardless of the size of the pile. It's the way God made things to work. However, it's rare to find large stores of compostable material naturally occurring. You also need to realize that for the material to be collected at the sale barn or at a yard waste dump is unnatural. It is also unnatural for it to be hauled off and dumped in a ravine or over a ridge after being unnaturally collected. At least when we haul it home, let it compost, and then spread it on our fields, it is no longer a wasted resource, and it is returning something to part of the land in our respective counties.
> 
> No one claimed that what we're doing is sustainable. Composting is sustainable, but using trucks and tractors to haul in and build compost piles is not something that can continue indefinitely. While the opportunity exists and the material would otherwise go to waste, I'm going to continue collecting it and composting it. To let the manure from the sale barn, the leaves and grass clippings at the yard waste dump, the sawdust from the sawmill, etc. go to waste and not become a useful resource to help restore the fertility of the soil because it is "unsustainable" is an idiotic notion. It is a more sustainable practice than what would happen (and what does happen) to most of the compostable material around here, I'm afraid, because I can only haul so much.
> 
> So, to recap. Your issues are your own. Deal with them. I think they are silly and not founded in the reality of the situation in my part of the world. If you wish to investigate the situation so that you can comment on it with knowledge, please do so. Perhaps then you won't have the same issues.
> 
> mudburn


I see I struck a nerve by calling it hoarding:viking:. Tell me, how much IS enough, and how much is redundancy and "waste" that could have been helpful somewhere else. Do you know? That's great you give it away, really.

I'm beginning to think I live in some sort of eco-nirvana, however. I'd think since you're so into composting you'd be interested to hear how it works and what the public vibe is in a place where it is communally respected and used, and learn how people got involved and lobbied to make government do compost and_ how it got to this lovely valuation of poop and slash_. But I suppose that's just idiodic to think on a community level. You're right, I dont' know what the situation is in your community(like, how would I?) it sounds very sad. Hopefully someday y'all can be like Oregon(that was supposed to be a joke). SOunds like we're a lot further along the compost continuum as a people(would that be, uh...more "extreme"???).

BTW your hoarding def you chose says "often" secret, meaning hoarded piles are sometimes indeed "not secret", and hoarders do indeed hoard things that aren't of value to other people. So yeah, you do fit the definition of "storing a supply for the future". 

And now you can attack me on accusing preppers of hoarding.


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## RedneckPete

I agree that they are hoarding. Who cares? If no one else wants the stuff and they do, hoard away. It's not their job to change the world, country or even their county.

When I see old appliances out on garbage day, I'll pick them up and bring them in for scrap. That's not sustainable if everyone did it, but so what? I can make a buck and I enjoy doing it. It's sustainable for me, and stupid for the people throwing the stuff out. By Wild Things logic, I should educate them, tell them how to make a buck off their junk and probably even share the cash with them.

Good luck with that philosophy in life.

Pete


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## mudburn

wyld thang said:


> Tell me, how much IS enough, and how much is redundancy and "waste" that could have been helpful somewhere else. Do you know? That's great you give it away, really.


Granted, by the definition, I'm a hoarder. However, it seemed that you were implying certain negative connotations.

How much is enough? When will it, if it will, reach a point of redundancy? I don't know. I'm only beginning. Right now my intent is to keep hauling it in as long as it is available. It would be great if others wanted to do the same and had the ambition to do so. It's available, and it's free. I'll be sure to let you know when/if I reach the point of diminishing returns (I'm not even to the point of appreciating returns yet, unfortunately :sob.

I'd love to see the people in the community/county more interested in composting and working to utilize the resources available. That doesn't mean that I believe the government should do it, though. Why should any gov't bureaucracy "hoard" the resources? :shrug: 

I've contemplated ways to coordinate a simplification of the process on a larger scale to benefit more people, but my thoughts are only in the beginning stages and may go nowhere. I may apply a traditional viewpoint, economic analysis to such an endeavor and conclude that it makes no sense whatsoever. :hysterical:

Oregon is an extreme state.

mudburn the hoarder


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## wyld thang

well since appliances don't grow on trees, what you do is "different" RNP. You fully deserve to make money for cleaning up. I'm not sure how you got I think you should pay people out of what I said, but whatever, good for you)

BUT, I think I'm figuring out what Mudborn and Forerunner's problem is with starting a composting revolution in their county(or wherever it is they want to). By taking some righteous moral highground and dismissing the economic value of composting they're missing out on a huge "bargaining" chip with farmers and more importantly the government. Both are a group that toe that bottom line, money talks, especially the prospect of making or saving money in these times. Economics sure do trump some hippy dippy better peace love way. How do you think they got it through here in Oregon? sure there's a bigger appreciation here of the environment and concern about sustainability and quality of life for all, BUT the people who got city hall to tumble made their business plan and showed how it would be economically(and conservationally) feasible to keep stuff out of the landfill and to sell compost. The gov's hands are tied by their budgets(esp local gov, and yeah I already hear all the wasteful gov spending yeah-butts)--if they can't make it work then good luck trying to get them to spend money being righteous.

As long as economic considerations are considered "low", tainted with some sort of moral failing, composting is going to be considered a backyard oddity by the general public, and unworkable by local government.


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## sgl42

re: "what if everyone did it" 
the assumption is that earth fertility should be evenly distributed. why? does the area beside roads need to have the same fertility as gardens? does the pasture for your recreational horse need to have the same fertility as your garden which feeds your family? the point is, there are valid reasons to shuffle fertility around, to make the most critical areas more fertile than other less critical areas. 

even in the old sustainable days, i assume many a farmer put most of the manure on only some parts of their farm, leaving other parts with less fertility. if ya gotta get the most income from the market garden, you're gonna put most of the compost there, not in the pig-pen which you only use for home consumption. over time, some areas of a farm would be more fertile than others, even if they started out the same. same thing on a community scale. 

re: "not economic"
our current economy is uneconomic. right now, we print little slips of green paper for free, and the rest of the world busts their derriÃ¨re to give us oil, trinkets and baubles, etc. how much would your "limited edition" collectible art poster be worth, if the artist lied and didn't limit the production run to 5,000 units as promised? how much will the dollar be worth with the trillions of new money bernanke is printing and congress is spending? what "uneconomic" activities will become economic at that point? what activities will become important? how much is the option value worth to you, to already have the fertility in place, and the skills, to grow nutritious food? 

as hockey star wayne gretsky says, his greatness is due to: "i don't skate to where the puck is, i skate to where the puck is going to be." where is the current unsustainable US economy going? where do you need to be when the music stops? my guess is forerunner and mudburn will look mighty "lucky" at that point.

--sgl


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## wyld thang

why shouldn't the gov have a hand in making legislation to protect habitat and work with private companies to do things a better way(I know here that the waste management and landfills are run by private companies, but are tied into local gov because we vote on measures dealing with their issues). Local government/city/county stuff is "different" than the uber ebo fed gov anyway, and it's different everywhere how utilities(which wastemamnagement falls under), I was just relating how it works _here_.

Our local waste management does not "hoard" the yard debri--it sells the finished compost, and applies the finished compost in various roadside projects, land reclamation projects and city parks. It all goes somewhere else. (gee, more of that extreme weirdness that we the people care about the land and seek to improve it, even, OMG by gov means)

Right now as you keep applying more and more ad infinitum you WON"T know when you can stop bringing in outside resources and let the natural cycle(aided by informed planting of a combination of plants) do it's thing. Seriously, what would nature do without us piling compost all through out the forest/prairie/desert to "help" it? Obviously there IS a point of equilibrium--and obviously the plants you WANT to grow will affect that. But I certainly think "enough" is a good thing to learn about, because there will be a day when we'll have to know what enough is to "share the wealth". (yes I'm using that inflammatory commie phrase to make a point). YOU don't have to figure out what that is if you dont' want to, but I think the concept of "enough" is an important one to consider even with compost.

(good lord, I do confess I forgot who I was talking to, smacks forehead--of course you couldn't care less about the Oregon gov and local gov and private companies do to compost...no DL/SSN!)


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## sleeping_gecko

Wyld Thang:

It sounds like there's a GREAT system in your area! Unfortunately, here's what happens in my town:

If a tree is downed in a storm (like happened a lot this past month), the city will come along and chop it up and turn it into mulch. This may get hauled to a point where it can be used (like the municipal yard waste dump forerunner mentioned).

If someone else takes care of the limbs (like the guy I know who is wheelchair-bound, and another friend came with his employees [he runs a lawncare business] and pruned back the messed up tree), then they usually go in a dumpster. This particular fellow put some in a dumpster at his day job (filled it up), and another in someone else's dumpster (about half a dumpster...but he did have permission).

Unfortunately, I have no way of chewing through the material, or I would gladly take it. As it is, I only have (occasional) access to a small leaf vacuum/chipper/shredder with about a 1.5" throat. Took me about 3 hours last night to chew through the smaller diameter portions of some mulberry limbs I trimmed.

This small scale works for us, on our tiny city lot (our compost pile, doubled last night with the fresh carbon, could almost fit in the trunk of our car). But it still bothers me that all this other compostable material is going to waste.

So, the issue here is that the "extreme composters" who have giant piles (or are they hills and mountains at this point  ) are utilizing stuff that would, otherwise, go to waste. It wouldn't simply rot where it falls, as it's fallen and moved somewhere else. In theory, that would be the most natural method, but I don't know anyone who, after buying veggies at the farmer's market, would clean them and take the scraps back out to the farmer, spreading them on their respective fields.

I'm trying to be silly here to prove a point. The goal is to (beneficially) reduce or eliminate the waste of these valuable resources. They're going away. A compost pile is a better destination than the landfill.


----------



## wyld thang

sgl42 said:


> re: "what if everyone did it"
> the assumption is that earth fertility should be evenly distributed. why? does the area beside roads need to have the same fertility as gardens? does the pasture for your recreational horse need to have the same fertility as your garden which feeds your family? the point is, there are valid reasons to shuffle fertility around, to make the most critical areas more fertile than other less critical areas.
> 
> even in the old sustainable days, i assume many a farmer put most of the manure on only some parts of their farm, leaving other parts with less fertility. if ya gotta get the most income from the market garden, you're gonna put most of the compost there, not in the pig-pen which you only use for home consumption. over time, some areas of a farm would be more fertile than others, even if they started out the same. same thing on a community scale.
> 
> re: "not economic"
> our current economy is uneconomic. right now, we print little slips of green paper for free, and the rest of the world busts their derriÃ¨re to give us oil, trinkets and baubles, etc. how much would your "limited edition" collectible art poster be worth, if the artist lied and didn't limit the production run to 5,000 units as promised? how much will the dollar be worth with the trillions of new money bernanke is printing and congress is spending? what "uneconomic" activities will become economic at that point? what activities will become important? how much is the option value worth to you, to already have the fertility in place, and the skills, to grow nutritious food?
> 
> as hockey star wayne gretsky says, his greatness is due to: "i don't skate to where the puck is, i skate to where the puck is going to be." where is the current unsustainable US economy going? where do you need to be when the music stops? my guess is forerunner and mudburn will look mighty "lucky" at that point.
> 
> --sgl


surprise! the hedgerows along the rural roads here support a variety of feral fruit trees left over from the homesteaders. Which _right now _support wildlife. Wildlife includes polinators BTW.

I'm not talking on a scale of a farm. Of course a farm raising diverse product and rotating fields will have varied areas of fertility. A smart person will know different plants LIKE different amounts of "fertility", and hopefully will give plants that want more, more, and those that like it scrabbly, less. I'm talking about taking resources from a county wide area and concentrating it on a few acres, and the concept of "enough"(why do I keep repeating myself?)

How does the old-fashioned concept of "fallow" fall into this.

so far the point of all this seems to be "get yours while the gettin's good". 

Seriously, doing this on a community level(or horrors, "state" wide) is a non-issue? 

BTW I've noticed on some parts of the roadside they are throwing the chipped slash down on the ground--I'm thinking the owner requests this.


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## wyld thang

sleeping_gecko said:


> Wyld Thang:
> 
> It sounds like there's a GREAT system in your area! Unfortunately, here's what happens in my town:
> 
> If a tree is downed in a storm (like happened a lot this past month), the city will come along and chop it up and turn it into mulch. This may get hauled to a point where it can be used (like the municipal yard waste dump forerunner mentioned).
> 
> If someone else takes care of the limbs (like the guy I know who is wheelchair-bound, and another friend came with his employees [he runs a lawncare business] and pruned back the messed up tree), then they usually go in a dumpster. This particular fellow put some in a dumpster at his day job (filled it up), and another in someone else's dumpster (about half a dumpster...but he did have permission).
> 
> Unfortunately, I have no way of chewing through the material, or I would gladly take it. As it is, I only have (occasional) access to a small leaf vacuum/chipper/shredder with about a 1.5" throat. Took me about 3 hours last night to chew through the smaller diameter portions of some mulberry limbs I trimmed.
> 
> This small scale works for us, on our tiny city lot (our compost pile, doubled last night with the fresh carbon, could almost fit in the trunk of our car). But it still bothers me that all this other compostable material is going to waste.
> 
> So, the issue here is that the "extreme composters" who have giant piles (or are they hills and mountains at this point  ) are utilizing stuff that would, otherwise, go to waste. It wouldn't simply rot where it falls, as it's fallen and moved somewhere else. In theory, that would be the most natural method, but I don't know anyone who, after buying veggies at the farmer's market, would clean them and take the scraps back out to the farmer, spreading them on their respective fields.
> 
> I'm trying to be silly here to prove a point. The goal is to (beneficially) reduce or eliminate the waste of these valuable resources. They're going away. A compost pile is a better destination than the landfill.


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'm not saying composting is bad!!!!! I'm talking about the effects of (now I'll throw in "long term" for good measure) taking resources from a large area and concentrating them on a small area(how many times do I have to repeat myself). Scale! Now I'll throw in the rich get richer, the poor get poorer(however moral that may or may not be, you can't get around "consequences" of that equation, like it or not). 

At some point here in Oregon, yard waste stopped being waste and became a soil amendment to better tilth and fertility in the mind of the general public. IT HAPPENED. I find it really weird that the general response is "that's cool but that's not reality". yeah, okay, whatever, stay in the dark ages(that's a joke). 

Those limbs are totally usable for you sg. Check out "hugelkulture", or if you are allowed to burn, burn them and add the ash to your soil(as long as your soil isn't uber sweet). Hugelkulture can make gardening on boggy soil possible. 

Or there is always firewood, like I said, regular people in my county snap up any downed wood like that for firewood. Lots of old farts that sell firewood for pin money too.

ANd yes, your vegetable peeling analogy is silly, it is nowhere near the scale I'm talking about


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## wyld thang

I'm also beginning to think the Oregon ******* is the epitome of industriousness and thrift!


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## jtjf_1

I have mostly heard of hoarding in the sense of filling your house up with useless items and not allowing others to take those items away. But to say adding to the fertility of ones soil using what would only go to waste is hoarding is not right. There is no one using these products. These products have been thrown away. If a person feels an item has no use and tosses it and another person finds that item and has a use for it then why should they not collect it and use it. On top of this the people you accuse of hoarding will give anyone free compost if they just ask. How would this be hoarding.

I Don't know how the system works where you are but what we have here is a bit of a joke. We have to pay to have curbside pick up of compostables twice a month in a wheelie bin that only fits some weeding and the prunings from our self pruning willow. No grass clippings or others. That material is taken to a dump where it is dumped in a pile to compost or it is given to composting companies that turn around and sell it. In the end the compost turns out to be more expensive than chemical fertilizers and so everyone goes with the chemicals leaving a large surplus of unsold compost. (also sale barns, woodmills etc need to pay big money to send they materials off to compost.

Not a very effective system if you ask me.


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## mudburn

Okay, I take it back. I'm not really a hoarder. I don't take the majority of the available material -- only a small percentage of it. I don't sell compost but am willing to give it away to others and to help others build their own piles. If a local municipality *collecting* (that's the definition we agreed upon) most of the available material isn't hoarding, then what I'm doing certainly isn't.

In the _morally superior_ stance that has been posited, extreme composting isn't sustainable, it is unnatural, and it represents an elitist hogging of resources that should be more evenly distributed. That viewpoint misses something vital: the material is being collected unnaturally and unsustainably at the sale barn or sawmill where I pick it up, completely apart from my intervention. These resources being concentrated in a single place in an unnatural way has nothing to do with me. I take a small percentage of that material in order to spread it out over 20 acres or more, not all on my land. I'm not going out in the myriad cow pastures to scoop up the resources dropped out there -- I'm retrieving some of the minuscule percentage of the resources in the county which the cows living here excrete out of their backsides while at the sale barn for one or two days. 

I have no _problem_ with starting a composting revolution in my area. This whole discussion has been based upon your contention and issues with the notion of *hoarding* as you see it relates to extreme composting. I believe you are wrong in your assessment. You are welcome to believe however you wish, of course. Your _moral superiority_ does not trump mine. The two are incompatible in many areas. So be it.

Sharing the wealth of composting (not just compost itself) is a process because it is a foreign concept in an agricultural world focused on chemical amendments and treatments. I don't know what role you had in establishing the composting programs in your municipality and the state of Oregon -- you haven't told us. You have no idea what I have or am doing in this area besides hauling some available "waste" material and building compost piles. Don't assume it's nothing. Don't assume your way is the best way, either.

You said I WON'T know when I can stop bringing in outside resources. Your assumption is not well grounded. I have not discussed my gardening/growing principles and practices. You don't know what baselines I have established and what variables I am and will be tracking. I honestly answered your question that at this point I don't know when I'll have enough -- I have not spread any compost yet. How could I know at this point? I also do not assume that all things of value can be quantitatively measured.

One more thing. I don't feel sorry for those individuals who know the resources that are available locally but who are unwilling to get off their backsides to collect it and compost it. The natural tendencies and aptitudes of individuals account for much of the diversity in compost accumulation and utilization we may observe. There is no inherent right or requirement for an even distribution of compost. Individuals are inherently unequal in matters of composting. The wealth of compost is naturally distributed throughout the community, but it would only be in an unnatural situation that we would experience an equal distribution of compost.

mudburn

Oh, btw, upon what do you base your assumption that I have no DL/SSN?


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## paintboy

man wyld thang you're a trip. 

Instigate controversy :soap:

Hover for reply

Play victim :awh:

repeat.....:clap:


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## Ernie

Realistically, if we get to the point where people are fighting over compost then I'll believe America JUST MIGHT survive. 

Few people even garden. Fewer people yet even compost. I don't believe anyone is doing anyone any harm by collecting organic material in their community. Heck, people are HAPPY to bring Forerunner dead cows and horses. They might be more inclined to fight over where to park their trailer to unload rather than fighting over the finished compost.


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## Pony

paintboy said:


> man wyld thang you're a trip.
> 
> Instigate controversy :soap:
> 
> Hover for reply
> 
> Play victim :awh:
> 
> repeat.....:clap:


Thanks. I was trying to find a way to say that, but you've summed it up rather well.


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## whatrset

I have been hovering and watching this thread for a while and can't believe this latest twist in drama that has been inserted into this fine thread. Personally, I think the discussion of hoarding is preposterous to anyone who ACTUALLY READ THE THREAD! 1)How do you even start to hoard something that is being potentially thrown away. ("Oh, some other person may wants some of it!!!!!" >>Well, then they need to get off their duff and get it. <PERIOD!!> 2) "The municipality needs to...." >>But they are not likely too, AND why do we need government to do the work of private citizens again....>>Getting in line for my free compost handout.... Made by Mr. O himself! ROTFLMAO Give us a break! 3)"The municipality needs to...." >>>Ohhhh, I bet they can be more efficeint at it tooo.... Arent all governments??? lololol

The sad truth is that if every municipality DID compost, it wouldn't be long until it was illegal for Joe Citizen TO compost because it could only be done safely (Etc Etc ad nauseaum) by the governments because as we all know quiet too well, private citizens cannot and should not think or do anything for themselves. BEWARE WHAT YOU WISH FOR!


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## mistletoad

Ernie said:


> Realistically, if we get to the point where people are fighting over compost then I'll believe America JUST MIGHT survive.
> 
> Few people even garden. Fewer people yet even compost. I don't believe anyone is doing anyone any harm by collecting organic material in their community. Heck, people are HAPPY to bring Forerunner dead cows and horses. They might be more inclined to fight over where to park their trailer to unload rather than fighting over the finished compost.


I couldn't agree more. I also believe that extreme composters draw more people to composting (as this thread shows) and that the municipalities are more likely to get on board if they can go and see how it is done.

If anyone is looking for bulk compost supplies, try your local university. We have been contacted by a couple who were looking for a farm to collect and compost the waste from their cafeterias. Unfortunately we did not have the time, space or equipment to take them up on it. If they were able to deliver it I would have found the space!


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## wyld thang

Mudborn, again, I am not "against" composting. I simply am asking the question is the ongoing collection of mountains of stuff neccessary(why must I keep repeating myself...). I'm not the only one thinking it's troublesome--the EPA has their own questions about large concentrated amounts of animal/human waste as well. Probably why the sale barn loves for you to take it away...I know here that if one has huge mounds of manure(even composting manure), the EPA would be FAST on my doorstep. 

DId I set up recycling composting in Oregon? nope. But I USE the resources "religiously" and tell other people about the resources available too. I take their free classes and learn all I can. I think it's cool what the people/government have set up here to make this land healthier. 

So, if you are interested in the health of the land, and how a government body is dealing, check this out
http://www.yamhillswcd.org/
The Yamhill Soil and Water Conservation District (SWCD) is a subdivision of the state government, led by a locally elected board of directors who serve without pay. The district's charge is to help conserve the land, water, plants, and wildlife resources in Yamhill County. The Yamhill SWCD directors are joined by associated directors, staff, and volunteers to carry out the district activities.

Much of the district's work involves matching governmental assistance with local conservation needs and encouraging land managers to use conservation practices. As a resident of Yamhill County or the surrounding area, you have the opportunity to participate in the Yamhill SWCD and take advantage of the many services we offer.

There are lots of pdfs you can read to see a model of studies and resources they have to help landowners improve/restore their lands and the waterways that go through them. And it's not (cough) just compost.

Compost is part of a whole. If you are concerned about the health of the land you own then you *should* also be concerned about the health of the entire watershed--you can't be an island in a wasteland and continue to grow lots of stuff--eventually the water is tainted, the polinators die(you could keep buying bees I guess). Since you dismiss doing things through government channels, that it's even possible (which I have provided proof it WORKS through government channels), you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

My "assumption" of when enough is enough is grounded in many people's work studying what is enough, it's not some whackball idea dreamed up to annoy you.

Controversy? so it's not good to ask questions, nor keep restating my question when it gets reworded and misinterpreted and dodged? Or question the "it'll never work" reaction when I suggest working to change local government to use composting materials(and provide examples of where it HAS worked, so it's not some pipe dream). Seriously what IS the vision here? Who is indeed the one sounding more "extreme", saying it CAN/IS be done on a county/state level???

Sure Mudburn, I dont' know exactly what you're doing, I will give you that. Forerunner has set the example here in this thread with his mountains of collected stuff, which is labeled the Good Thing Extreme and THAT (again, the ongoing concentration of huge amounts of stuff on a few acres) is what I question--how does that affect the health of the community. IF it is redistributed, good--it works to bring up the health of the entire ecosystem which is a good thing for everyone. If a farmer has no care for the health of lands surrounding him he is a shortsighted farmer(I would call it worse). 

(but...I will confess, when my question keeps being reworded or twisted into something different such as I'm saying "composting is bad" I have the personality flaw that makes me want to keep asking mY question until I get an answer. Which the answer appears to be "I don't know"...which is an alright answer)


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## wyld thang

jtjf_1 said:


> I Don't know how the system works where you are but what we have here is a bit of a joke. We have to pay to have curbside pick up of compostables twice a month in a wheelie bin that only fits some weeding and the prunings from our self pruning willow. No grass clippings or others. That material is taken to a dump where it is dumped in a pile to compost or it is given to composting companies that turn around and sell it. In the end the compost turns out to be more expensive than chemical fertilizers and so everyone goes with the chemicals leaving a large surplus of unsold compost. (also sale barns, woodmills etc need to pay big money to send they materials off to compost.
> 
> Not a very effective system if you ask me.


If you really are interested in how it works here, here it is. There are three bins for pick up, within city limits(or county limits, depending on how urban). A small bin for garbage(about two medium size laundry baskets), and two big bins(about 1 1/2 big garbage cans worth size) one for recycling(glass, metal, metal scrap, paper, newpaper, magazines, plastic) and one for yard debri(grass clippings included, the only thing you cant put in there is ashes because of hot ash fire danger). If you don't have recycling pick up in your area, you can drop it off at the recycling center for free, in any amount(which we do, or I drop it off at my sister's house who has curbside pickup). Though if you are dropping it off you have to sort it there(oh wah!). Yard debri is taken by separate trucks to composting places the county has set up. Here in my county it's next to the recycling center in town. In the fall they have curbside scoop up of leaves and whatever amount extra yard debri. There is also a recycling center at the dump(and you take big scrap, tires, and apllainces there--they dont' put that stuff into the landfill. they will check your garbage bags going over the edge and if you dump something not allowed you get in trouble).

The compost sold by the county is cheaper than the compost in bags at Home Depot/Lowes etc, and for a reasonable fee they will deliver and dump it where you want(within reason of course, they dont' want to get stuck).

It is "assumed" that rural people compost their yard debri/manure(which they do or else they give it away to people who want manure). They are also free to burn it outside of the summer burn ban.

Again, I'm not saying "composting" is hoarding, I was asking about the giant piles of it. Scale.


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## Ernie

How would anyone even go about explaining the entire holistic viewpoint of proper land management and stewardship? What one post would ever possibly contain the info you need to learn that?

I think what the OP was doing here was taking ONE element of proper land husbandry and explaining it. There is a certain assumption that someone who cares enough about their soil fertility to learn composting will ALSO care enough about the rest of it to seek out the other information they need.

As for the scale of "giant piles of compost", I don't know why there's a problem with that. You'll have to explain to me what the potential harm is, or perhaps be more specific about what question you're asking.


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## Ernie

Realistically, WT, I think you just don't like Forerunner for some reason and are looking for reasons to attack him. That seems to me to be more what this is about.

He's just talking about compost. He's not giving you his religious beliefs, his political ideology, or trying to convince you to like his favorite food. If you don't want giant piles of compost on your property then don't do it.


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## wyld thang

Ernie said:


> Realistically, WT, I think you just don't like Forerunner for some reason and are looking for reasons to attack him. That seems to me to be more what this is about.
> 
> He's just talking about compost. He's not giving you his religious beliefs, his political ideology, or trying to convince you to like his favorite food. If you don't want giant piles of compost on your property then don't do it.


If anyone else were to have giant piles of compost/manure sic ongoing concentration on a large scale I would ask the same question. My questions have been about practicality of execution and science. "Hoarding" was an unfortunate choice that carries a lot of extra connotation on this board by it's demographic, but certainly applicable by definition. And I assumed that the health of the surrounding landscape would be at least a tack on concern, but that's fine, it's clearly not something valuable discussing here so "I get it".

Forerunner and I have already agreed to disagree--and believe it or not we two are probably closer in a lot of ways than one would think, and I suspect if we were to get together in real life as real people we'd have a lot of things to discuss in a beneficial way. He hasn't been here to say anything, which is fine, the discussion is with other people. I've made it really clear my question involves "enough" or scale of concentration/application, and that yes the gov is quite capable(with the right people in the mix of course) of implementing a composting program(to which the general reply has been "that's silly/impossible"). I think it's really weird that extremeliness is next to godliness, and when I take this to the next level--community--that's just knee jerk untenable. What, that's too extreme? If Forerunner does indeed have a vision for practically changing the community's mindset about the value of compost, then I'd love to hear it. As it stands now that mindset of "waste" is to his and Mudborn's etc benefit, sure. How to win the hearts and minds...obviously it can be done. Is it even worth doing? (I'm having a hard time deciding if y'all think so)

This is a gargantuan thread now, it can stand some flights of tangent exploring "what does composting mean". Things dont' get discovered by staying home in your closet doing the same ol.


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## SueMc

I for one am very interested in this thread as it was. While I will never compost to the extent that some on here do, I have learned alot and hope to continue to. I have a large pile thanks to my five equine that I am supplementing with kitchen and yard "waste", wood chips via my awesome chipper, and the occasional bale of hay that may go moldy. I know lots of gardeners but very, very few composters. It's like anything else, each to their own.
My community doesn't and likely won't ever compost the materials it collects. There is a yard waste dump area which is scavenged by others primarily for wood. When the pile gets big and dry enough the town workers unfortunately burns it. 

I don't understand WT's motive for the postings. I understand what you are saying, so don't need anything repeated. It just seems that the postings are somewhat hostile (maybe not the right word) and argumentative and I truly don't understand the rationale for that. They certainly are veering from the original spirit of this thread.
Composting in any form utilizes materials that might be wasted otherwise (burned, thrown away, etc.) and that's always a good thing IMO. 

Large private piles of compost versus large community compost piles would have the same effects on local water tables. Being a community endeavor doesn't change the fact that on a big scale, the piles can be huge, sit on the bare ground (the ones I've seen) and potentially produce runoff. The EPA surely doesn't have one set of standards for private composting and another for community composting. Regarding taking materials away from other areas and possibly depriving those areas of necessary materials, that view seems like speculation and would need scientific studies to prove that there would be some sort of cause and effect. 
Anyway, I think anytime something is reused rather than thrown in a landfill can't be anything but beneficial, no matter what the scale or method.


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## wyld thang

Wood ash is still a valuable garden amendment.

One fringe issue that may explain a basis for my speculation(and I wasn't the first...) on the imbalance of nutrients is the 100 years of fire suppression in the west. It used to be fires went through and burned up the fallen dead stuff and dry lower limbs of biger trees, and too thickly sprouted young trees. Big enough trees were unaffected, and the fire kept down the competition for resources and returned nutrients to the soil that were sucked up out of the soil by the trees and deposited in dead stuf--it was all part of the cycle. Fire also kept pests under control. Now we've got thick undernourished trees competing for nutrients that are lying on top of the soil taking longer to leach down (because rot is slower than ash). Undernourished trees get sick and harbor pests. Pests thrive because the fires don't burn them. When fire does happen, the fuel is so thick the whole forest burns and everything starts from scratch.

It's not a long leap to apply this to nutrient cycles being applied to farm fields, and to question the impact on the greater ecosystem.

Here the giant community piles are redistibuted back "out". If the piles are just sitting there they just become a monocultured landfill.


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## MullersLaneFarm

WT, are you trying to compare wildfires to burning compostable materials and trying to say it is the same?

It's a good thing in your community in OR that they are well advanced in their composting skills, this is not the norm in most communities.

Could you spread some light on why you think a large community compost pile would have a positive effect on land, water, plants, and wildlife resources where as a large private compost pile would not?



> It is "assumed" that rural people compost their yard debri/manure(which they do or else they give it away to people who want manure).


Who 'assumes' this and why are you certain that it is composted or given away? You must be one busy lady to keep tabs on the whole county and what the rural residents are doing with their compostable materials.


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## wyld thang

I'll see if I can do this and make sense.



MullersLaneFarm said:


> WT, are you trying to compare wildfires to burning compostable materials and trying to say it is the same?
> 
> *that wasn't my intent, but sure, burning biomass fallen from trees and burning yard debri is essentially the same end product. Stuff burned from wildfire has a place in the natural cycle. We can mimic that nutrient dispersal by burning fields, or controlled burning, or burning a slash pile and spreading the ash. I suppose one could say that burning slash is a form of "flash composting".
> 
> The point I was trying to make was that preventing part of the nutrient cycle--wildfire--over the last one hundred years(though effects were noted in less amount of time)has indeed disrupted the health of the forest out here. Of course it's a litle bit more complicated in the whole picture--but the element of ash(a nutrient) not being deposited is quantifiable. In essence the nutrients are being "hoarded" in the standing weak stunted trees that are competing for resources. This is a model that can be applied in thinking about other nutrient cycles on a "whole" scale *
> It's a good thing in your community in OR that they are well advanced in their composting skills, this is not the norm in most communities.
> 
> Could you spread some light on why you think a large community compost pile would have a positive effect on land, water, plants, and wildlife resources where as a large private compost pile would not?
> 
> *The large community compost pile is redistrbuted back out to landowners yards and farmers fields and city/county parks and landowner restoration projects. The stuff goes back out, it's not concentrated on one spot, more real estate gets the benefit. Ideally of course stuff would not ned so much transportation around, but the point is, in my county, the stuff goes back out and gets spread really widely.
> 
> A huge compost pile on private land--yes indeed it will improve the land, and of course some land needs a huge jumpstart to get the cycle running. My question (again) is with ongoing large concentration, most likely way past "enough" of what is needed. There will be a point where there is way more nutrients sitting there than the plants that can be spaced according to sprawl and sunlight needs can take up. You can't just keep planting infinite numbers of plants on an acreage at the same rate you can pile up endless compost. Concentrate resources in one spot and somewhere else goes begging. I think the bee situation is an example of whoops a little too late on realizing those wasted unproductive spaces of hedgerows, wetlands and scrubby whatever lands were indeed important to the whole.*
> 
> 
> 
> Who 'assumes' this and why are you certain that it is composted or given away? You must be one busy lady to keep tabs on the whole county and what the rural residents are doing with their compostable materials.
> 
> *There is media that encourages people to compost(from the waste management), it is ingrained the popular mindset to compost(or buy it from the compost guys to put it on your garden instead of chemicals). The news media toots compost and responsible "disposing" of yard waste(nonono take it to the dump, and they will NOT take it at the dump if you take it there!) There are several community yard debri collection days. There is the simple "economics" that in the rural areas here my neighbors compost or burn yard debri--cuz there is room and laws "allowing" that, and why spend gas and time toting it somewhere else? I've been in school and church and seen posters on message boards offering manure/slash for firewood etc. Manure gets spread on the fields(yes there are dairies and beef here). But probably the biggest behavior modifier is that the dump/landfill simply doesn't take yard debri (and therefore, it's not going into the landfill)--people have a variety of fairly simple ways to get rid of their yard debri if they dont' want it and it goes to be made into compost. They've been trained pretty well.
> 
> For kicks, the fire dept in the town my sister lives in(very small town in my county) gathers any yard debri through Sept/Oct and has a ganormous town party bonfire. *


Thank you for asking :goodjob:


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## wyld thang

MullersLaneFarm said:


> It's a good thing in your community in OR that they are well advanced in their composting skills, this is not the norm in most communities.
> 
> .


there is really no reason why people can't be taught to change their minds. The time is ripe for people to really value the land and learn to care for it, and learn news ways of not consuming so much and making so much garbage. I confess I am pretty insulated, I dont' get out of OR/WA much. I did go to CA some but it was a culture shock to see how water was wasted, and the amount of garbage along the roads, and the amount of nest-fouling going on--despite CA's prideful facade of being "green" and eco conscious blah blah. 

That isn't to say OR can't be a model for preserving the health of farmland and wild lands. It took some rather "progressive/draconian"(however you choose to see it) land use legislation to do so way back when nobody was into conservation, but we're sure reaping the quality of life results of less sprawl, clean water and good farmland today.


----------



## wyld thang

mistletoad said:


> I couldn't agree more. I also believe that extreme composters draw more people to composting (as this thread shows) and that the municipalities are more likely to get on board if they can go and see how it is done.
> 
> If anyone is looking for bulk compost supplies, try your local university. We have been contacted by a couple who were looking for a farm to collect and compost the waste from their cafeterias. Unfortunately we did not have the time, space or equipment to take them up on it. If they were able to deliver it I would have found the space!


Seriously, around town the pig farmers are all over that kind of waste to feed their pigs. My friend who runs a bread pantry used to give her moldy bread to a pig farmer(I think he died though, that's why the "used to"), and I could take as much as I wanted for my chickens. People scoop up all the icky produce at farmer's markets and roadside stands for their livestock. It's quite competitive.


----------



## RedneckPete

WT thinks the government need to manage and lead the composting charge. If the government isn't leading it, it's not being done right.

Kind of weird for someone who is leading the drive for Palin as president.

Pete


----------



## salmonslayer

Wow, I was just going to brag that 2 months into our arrival at the farm we have gotten 2 large piles of compost to completely break down into black rich fully composted goodness and that our gardens are thriving in our rocky Ozark lime rock soil. :thumb:

I think some of it depends on where you are, I live in an extremely rural area surrounded by farms and you can get all the composting materials you want just for the asking and we compost everything. I can even get firewood for free if I yard it out and haul it off because people cant give it away unless its cut and neatly stacked (lots of lazy people looking for free handouts with no effort but thats another thread).

I understand what your trying to say WyldThang but I think your debating a non-issue and are on the wrong side of this. I still dig your posts though...you have a convoluted way of getting to the point sometimes but I always enjoy the journey!!!


----------



## bloogrssgrl

wyld thang, perhaps you might be interested in this link. I don't know if it will answer any specific questions you raised or not as I haven't gone back through this thread to read the whole progression. 

I did have a chance to see Rodale's composting first-hand. They have large tanks to collect leachate "compost tea" to not only make use of the valuable liquid but also to contain the run-off. They only apply compost to their fields every 5 years or so due to the potential build up of phosphorous levels. A quote from the article: "If you've got too much, you're probably better off selling it than over-applying it." 

http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0804/compost/index.shtml


----------



## mudburn

It would behoove us to go back to the beginning of this thread to see the intent and purpose:



Forerunner said:


> The focus of this thread is going to be on sources of material and how one man can make extensive use of what the world throws away.
> Obviously, if this catches on, such waste material will regain its long lost sense of value, and I say it can't happen soon enough.
> Between the yard waste, farm waste, kitchen/restaurant waste, sale barns, food processing plants, sawmills, animal shelters, barber shops,  stone cutting facilities, municipal sewage disposal, etc. there is ample, mineral and nutrient-rich material being wasted to at least keep ME up nights...
> 
> Following will be a rather haphazard narration, illustrated, of how I've made use of what is readily available. I have tried to get others interested, and they are, but they like to watch me, rather than take up the pitchfork, themselves. The day will come, I am sure, but until then, I gather....


Notice, from the beginning (and those who have read this thread already know this), the point has been made that 'extreme composting' is a utilization of what is otherwise being thrown away and wasted. The desire and efforts are for others to catch the composting bug and participate in the process. Several posters on this thread have shared how they've been inspired by the examples and information shared. A great impact and difference is being made by sharing our individual efforts and educating many about the possibilities that exist. It would be great if _everyone_ would recognize the value of compost and get involved; that is one of the stated desires Forerunner posited on February 22, 2010, when he started this thread.

Can a government entity do the same job? Sure. There is ample evidence of this. However, as has been stated (and miss-characterized), the government, local or otherwise, is not necessarily the _best_, and certainly not the only, entity to undertake "large-scale" composting. There are plenty of individuals and private entities fully capable of doing so. Why should anyone wait for the municipality to do what he/she can do? If individuals can accomplish "large-scale" composting for their own and others' use, there is no need for tax-supported government efforts. If the local gov't here was involved in composting, that would be fine, but they aren't. And, I don't believe I need to put forth effort to get the gov't involved -- it's people being involved, especially of their own volition not by compulsion, that is important.

Forerunner has described some of what he is doing. He hasn't described all of it. Some people will take exception to what they think he is doing (maybe even without reading what he's described in this thread). Composting is the focus here, not other efforts associated with responsible land husbandry/sustainability/conservation.

WT wants to know "how much is enough?" I've already answered her question from my perspective: I don't know since I haven't begun to apply compost yet. There is not an across-the-board quantifiable amount because there are many different variables involved. It is the responsibility of the individual to determine the amount and frequency of application. This is dependent upon the amount of compost one has, the type and condition of one's soil, the plants to be grown, weather, etc. A simple answer is unrealistic at this point, and even if I could provide the answer, it wouldn't necessarily apply in other cases.

Using ashes from burning biomass does provide some essential nutrients and definitely has its place. I use my ashes. I do not burn things just to produce ashes, though. Around here, the forests do not historically burn on a regular basis. They drop their leaves every year which, along with other materials, naturally breaks down and composts under the canopy. Building compost piles with unnaturally accumulated materials (i.e. concentrated at the sale barn, sawmill, horse farm, etc.) and spreading that in needed areas more closely replicates the natural process as it occurs here. The piles just allow more control and speed up the process, making it more manageable. I don't consider ashes and compost as equivalent -- compost provides humus that ashes do not.

To return to the original topic and purpose of the thread (not that some of the tangents aren't beneficial), last week the guy who runs the local sale barn asked me about their dead cows. A rendering plant has been taking them (the sale barn pays for the disposal), but as of July, they will no longer be taking dead cows. No one else in the area (a wide area) will take them. They're not wanted. The other option (what they used to do) that the sale barn has is to pay for a backhoe to dig a hole to bury the dead cows. So, I've agreed to begin composting their dead animals, in essence, burying them in sawdust. I didn't ask for this opportunity; he offered it because of my efforts in hauling off their "waste", and it's a service I can provide for them. He wouldn't have even asked if I hadn't previously told him about composting animals, something he did not know anything about.

mudburn


----------



## whatrset

Mudburn, 
Is the sale barn transporting their dead animals to you are will you have to transport them? Awesome to get a rich N supply.

WT: I live in an areas that historically was a summer fire area, and then pine monoculture replaced the old virgin long leaf pine/Oaks of days gone by. Unfortunately, the timber companies do not Prescribe burn as they used to which leads to a build up of combustables. I asked a timber company representative why they rarely burn anymore and he answered 1) Liability: fire can get out of control and burn private land, houses, or cause smoke dangers to motorists; 2) Carbon issues: Burning releases carbon and the EPA is leaning on them to reduce carbon in the air, and by letting the debris rot, it puts more of the carbon into the soil. I fear we will see more decisions based on carbon in the air arguments. 

So, while I like a lil ash spread on my garden areas, I'd prefer a nice rick compost to lock the carbon in the ground where it belongs.

ALL: I think the answer to how much is enough resides in the owner of the property where composting is being done. If something becomes detrimental to my farms existence, then enough is enough. I am not talking about ivory tower beauraucratic legal detriment, I am talking about I honestly see an issue.


----------



## wyld thang

RedneckPete said:


> WT thinks the government need to manage and lead the composting charge. If the government isn't leading it, it's not being done right.
> 
> Kind of weird for someone who is leading the drive for Palin as president.
> 
> Pete


Boy that's sure a loose paraphrase of what I was saying!

Personally I think the demonization of an entity is a distraction and the lazy way out. Look at how many people paraphrase/misquote the bible verse about money as "money is the root of evil". That is NOT what the Bible actually says, what it says is "The LOVE of money is the root of evil". THat lazy easy half-butt demonization of a thing completely misses the REAL problem--people with priorites in the wrong place who misuse a tool. Totally applies to government too. 

And yeah, I'm willing to bet Sarah Palin(and the founding fathers for that matter) would agree with me on that one. She used government to enact good change, just like government was a tool to enact change in composting values and practice on a wide community scale in my state.


----------



## wyld thang

bloogrssgrl said:


> wyld thang, perhaps you might be interested in this link. I don't know if it will answer any specific questions you raised or not as I haven't gone back through this thread to read the whole progression.
> 
> I did have a chance to see Rodale's composting first-hand. They have large tanks to collect leachate "compost tea" to not only make use of the valuable liquid but also to contain the run-off. They only apply compost to their fields every 5 years or so due to the potential build up of phosphorous levels. A quote from the article: "If you've got too much, you're probably better off selling it than over-applying it."
> 
> http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0804/compost/index.shtml


THANK YOU BGG!!!!!!!!!! that is EXACTLY what I'm thinking about!!! I hope other people will go read that.

It's also a very good point mentioned in the article in defining compost as a soil amendment rather than a fertilizer. THat was totally my experience, I got crap trying to use compost as a fertilizer--I wasn't understanding how my soil was made up and was in the mindset of fighting it by basically making new soil with compost. Nope, it didn't come together till I worked with the soil and used compost as a part of the whole. (that's a whole nother tangent)

Just sayin, I have an inbred knee jerk "whoa" of my own when ANYTHING is used, praised, whatever, to excess. Most of the people here would say off the cuff "moderation in everything" but that obviously doesn't cover certain sacred things such as compost D).


----------



## wyld thang

whatrset said:


> Mudburn,
> Is the sale barn transporting their dead animals to you are will you have to transport them? Awesome to get a rich N supply.
> 
> WT: I live in an areas that historically was a summer fire area, and then pine monoculture replaced the old virgin long leaf pine/Oaks of days gone by. Unfortunately, the timber companies do not Prescribe burn as they used to which leads to a build up of combustables. I asked a timber company representative why they rarely burn anymore and he answered 1) Liability: fire can get out of control and burn private land, houses, or cause smoke dangers to motorists; 2) Carbon issues: Burning releases carbon and the EPA is leaning on them to reduce carbon in the air, and by letting the debris rot, it puts more of the carbon into the soil. I fear we will see more decisions based on carbon in the air arguments.
> 
> So, while I like a lil ash spread on my garden areas, I'd prefer a nice rick compost to lock the carbon in the ground where it belongs.
> 
> ALL: I think the answer to how much is enough resides in the owner of the property where composting is being done. If something becomes detrimental to my farms existence, then enough is enough. I am not talking about ivory tower beauraucratic legal detriment, I am talking about I honestly see an issue.



Yes, I know about the liability and carbon issues. BUT the simple out of whack fact is this, by far more carbon gets farted out by industry that forest fires, so carbon in regards to forest fire is a non-issue, and liability(including people who build out in the forest whining about bad luck of getting burned out) and public misinformed sentiment drives the carbon thing. And plants breathe in carbon stuff as well--if there was no carbon in the air what does THAT do to plant health? What would we do if there was no oxygen(or any other element was missing from the mix)? D. I. E.


----------



## wyld thang

mudburn said:


> It would behoove us to go back to the beginning of this thread to see the intent and purpose:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice, from the beginning (and those who have read this thread already know this), the point has been made that 'extreme composting' is a utilization of what is otherwise being thrown away and wasted. The desire and efforts are for others to catch the composting bug and participate in the process. Several posters on this thread have shared how they've been inspired by the examples and information shared. A great impact and difference is being made by sharing our individual efforts and educating many about the possibilities that exist. It would be great if _everyone_ would recognize the value of compost and get involved; that is one of the stated desires Forerunner posited on February 22, 2010, when he started this thread.
> 
> Can a government entity do the same job? Sure. There is ample evidence of this. However, as has been stated (and miss-characterized), the government, local or otherwise, is not necessarily the _best_, and certainly not the only, entity to undertake "large-scale" composting. There are plenty of individuals and private entities fully capable of doing so. Why should anyone wait for the municipality to do what he/she can do? If individuals can accomplish "large-scale" composting for their own and others' use, there is no need for tax-supported government efforts. If the local gov't here was involved in composting, that would be fine, but they aren't. And, I don't believe I need to put forth effort to get the gov't involved -- it's people being involved, especially of their own volition not by compulsion, that is important.
> 
> Forerunner has described some of what he is doing. He hasn't described all of it. Some people will take exception to what they think he is doing (maybe even without reading what he's described in this thread). Composting is the focus here, not other efforts associated with responsible land husbandry/sustainability/conservation.
> 
> WT wants to know "how much is enough?" I've already answered her question from my perspective: I don't know since I haven't begun to apply compost yet. There is not an across-the-board quantifiable amount because there are many different variables involved. It is the responsibility of the individual to determine the amount and frequency of application. This is dependent upon the amount of compost one has, the type and condition of one's soil, the plants to be grown, weather, etc. A simple answer is unrealistic at this point, and even if I could provide the answer, it wouldn't necessarily apply in other cases.
> 
> Using ashes from burning biomass does provide some essential nutrients and definitely has its place. I use my ashes. I do not burn things just to produce ashes, though. Around here, the forests do not historically burn on a regular basis. They drop their leaves every year which, along with other materials, naturally breaks down and composts under the canopy. Building compost piles with unnaturally accumulated materials (i.e. concentrated at the sale barn, sawmill, horse farm, etc.) and spreading that in needed areas more closely replicates the natural process as it occurs here. The piles just allow more control and speed up the process, making it more manageable. I don't consider ashes and compost as equivalent -- compost provides humus that ashes do not.
> 
> To return to the original topic and purpose of the thread (not that some of the tangents aren't beneficial), last week the guy who runs the local sale barn asked me about their dead cows. A rendering plant has been taking them (the sale barn pays for the disposal), but as of July, they will no longer be taking dead cows. No one else in the area (a wide area) will take them. They're not wanted. The other option (what they used to do) that the sale barn has is to pay for a backhoe to dig a hole to bury the dead cows. So, I've agreed to begin composting their dead animals, in essence, burying them in sawdust. I didn't ask for this opportunity; he offered it because of my efforts in hauling off their "waste", and it's a service I can provide for them. He wouldn't have even asked if I hadn't previously told him about composting animals, something he did not know anything about.
> 
> mudburn



I agree that ash is not the same thing, nutrient or humus building wise as compost, just saying they are both decomposition/breaking down of biomass which occur naturally. And in some parts of the country, more than others, ash is part of the natural nutrient/soil building cycle. Ash WILL do some things, chemically, that compost can't do. Like you said, everyone is in a different ecosystem. My soil is so naturally acid (again, fire is part of the cycle here), that I do burn slash occasionally to apply extra ash to sweeten(as opposed to composting the slash).

Regards to the gov issue as a means of getting things done, sure private people can do things, often the gov is run by bumbling idiots. BUT you get the right mix of good people IN gov who can do a good job of planning and marketing an idea, they have the organizational/media/equipment RESOURCES to affect behavior and get something done on a large scale. That's nothing to sniff at or dismiss. I find "usually" local government is a way different ballgame than federal--locals elect their neighbors and people with a personal reputation at stake, there is a finite budget and they can't pull money out of their butt like the fed gov can. There is a lot more real time, fast accountability to keep things on a better path--of course if the residents care enough to care and pay attention. If they don't then they get what not caring produces(garbage). In that sense I see a local government (in the managing of services) as just another private company--good governments know their good business poop, bad governments are bad business runners.

SO will the sale barn now pay you for disposal? that's a great way to make some money.


----------



## wyld thang

I hope Forerunner clicks on bloograssgrls link, that is a rockin Red Green Frankenstein compost turner!


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## mudburn

whatrset said:


> Mudburn,
> Is the sale barn transporting their dead animals to you are will you have to transport them? Awesome to get a rich N supply.


I'll have to transport the dead animals myself. They'll call me when they have any. Then, I'll drive my truck there, and they'll load them for me. I don't know how many they have in a year, but some weeks there will be one or two, maybe three (that's about the most they've had at one time).

mudburn


----------



## mudburn

wyld thang said:


> SO will the sale barn now pay you for disposal? that's a great way to make some money.


They will pay me for taking the dead animals. I'm not asking for the $65 they paid the other organization, though. I could tell that he was hoping I would take them for free.

If I didn't know and like the guy who has the "contract" (nothing in writing) to haul off the bedding/manure they clean out, I would pursue under-bidding him so that I could get paid to haul it away. I just have a hard time doing that to a friend (I know how important that bit of income is to him). If my ideas for establishing a bigger composting endeavor come together (we've briefly discussed it), he will be involved, though. I'm only beginning in these things and don't know where it will all go. So, I'm trying to make sure I'm established in the good graces of the sale barn and the hauling guy as well as helping out those in the community who want "stuff" but don't have the means to haul it.

mudburn


----------



## JuliaAnn

""can't pull money out of their butt""

I've only been semi-following this thread, but I have had in mind that it's a money matter for local/municipal agencies to make and distribute compost. Problem is no, they don't have money to pull out of their butts, and to be frank, I don't want them pulling any more out of mine.


----------



## Lloyd J.

Hi All

Brand new to this forum. I've gone through this thread several times and each time I realize I am in the company of kindred spirits. I love to compost stuff and I am in awe of forerunner and mudburn!:bow:

I receive the yard trimmings/leaves from a small town and use it on my small farm to grow crops and to compost. Don't do a lot of hunting/gathering for materials because I get more than enough from the town for now. I also haven't done any dead-stock and I'm not likely to mainly because of zoning issues.

I'm not much of a gardener for now but come retirement from my real job, I hope to get more into that. 

Anyways, I hope to continue reading about you guys and your operations, it's inspirational.

Lloyd


----------



## mudburn

Lloyd J. said:


> Hi All
> 
> Brand new to this forum. I've gone through this thread several times and each time I realize I am in the company of kindred spirits. I love to compost stuff and I am in awe of forerunner and mudburn!. . .
> 
> Anyways, I hope to continue reading about you guys and your operations, it's inspirational.


Welcome, Lloyd! I looked at you photos, and I really like what you're doing. It looks great. Your compost tumblers are awesome! You've made some nice compost piles. Keep doing what you're doing, cause it looks fantastic!

I look forward to hear more from you and your experiences.

mudburn


----------



## Ernie

JuliaAnn said:


> ""can't pull money out of their butt""
> 
> I've only been semi-following this thread, but I have had in mind that it's a money matter for local/municipal agencies to make and distribute compost. Problem is no, they don't have money to pull out of their butts, and to be frank, I don't want them pulling any more out of mine.


Bahaha! That's going to have me laughing all morning.


----------



## sgl42

Lloyd J. said:


> Brand new to this forum. I've gone through this thread several times and each time I realize I am in the company of kindred spirits. I love to compost stuff and I am in awe of forerunner and mudburn!:bow:


welcome to the forum. i enjoyed browsing your photos. the compost tumbler you built is amazing, along with the compost sifters. you've definitely got a great "extreme" composting system of your own going. please keep the pics and comments going!

--sgl


----------



## 4crumleys

Hey, I am a lurker for months now and have been composting for about 7 months. I am small time compared to some of you, just one 50 gallon drum that I have set up to spin. The problem I have is the compost forms small muddy balls. I wind up having to break these up by hand. Any suggestions? 
I spin the 50 gallon drum which has air holes drilled around it at least 5 times a week. I mix in vegetable food scrapes, some leaves, and some grass clippings. 

Thanks for your help


----------



## rugerman1

I started reading this thread a while back after Oneokie linked me it.I joined shortly thereafter so I could search the Homesteading Today database about compost.Oneokie is a farmer in,well,,,Okieland  and is_ VERY _wise on matters pertaining to agriculture.
I have a small ~3000 square foot garden on the NorthWestern fringe of the Pittsburgh suburbs,and used to buy a load of mushroom manure from the mines up in Wampum every couple years.Reading this thread and talking to Nolan(Oneokie),lit a fire under me to search locally for sources of _CHEAP/FREE_ compost materials.This past April,a friends neighbor had mule manure that needed disposed of.So I got 1.5 truckloads started composting in 2 old pickup truck bedliners.
I had enough to fill 1 bedliner and "stirred" it by moving it to the other bedliner every week or so.









I found a fellow with a quantity of horse manure that was willing to give me it for free using his bobcat to load it.I filled the empty bedliner with the first load.








I then had to devise a way to manage the other 4 truck loads of material that was available.So,I cobbeled together a 8 foot wide by 16 foot long troth.








2 pickup truck loads later:










4 loads total filled it up like it was designed to hold it :grin:








Nolan makes fun of the tall weeds I have growing on the edge of the garden

Thanks again to Forerunner for the great thread he started and to Nolan( Oneokie ) for answering all my other agricultural questions.


----------



## Freya

JuliaAnn said:


> Problem is no, they don't have money to pull out of their butts, and to be frank, I don't want them pulling any more out of mine.


I nearly snorted tea all over my screen. ound:


----------



## Freya

rugerman1 Nice job! :clap::goodjob:


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## NEMarvin

Hello all, new here, and love this thread! (well, most of it anyway:bash

I notice that some of your pictures show tarps over your piles...can you talk more about that? Is it to help increase the temps? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## silverbackMP

Mudburn,

Awesome blog site on your house project; I stumbled on it looking for a different timber frame house blog I read a couple of years ago* I thought hmmm "Mudburn sounds familiar" and I clicked on your farm blog and figured it out.

Anyway, I suggest folks check out his blogs; lots of good stuff.

Silver



*dyi timber frame house, victorian w/ turrent, native stone veneer from farm, kentucky/tennessee area, the guy runs some cattle, etc--if anyone has the link for this please let me know.


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## silverbackMP

Mudburn,

I found the link I was looking for off you your blog.

Mudburn's links


http://kyhomestead.blogspot.com/


http://cedar-ridge-farm.blogspot.com/


The link I was originally looking for

http://massiehouse.blogspot.com/


----------



## Trisha in WA

NEMarvin said:


> Hello all, new here, and love this thread! (well, most of it anyway:bash
> 
> I notice that some of your pictures show tarps over your piles...can you talk more about that? Is it to help increase the temps?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I'm probably not the one to answer your question, but I'm going to give it a go anyway ;-)
In the hot summer sun, a tarp can be used to keep your pile from drying out. In the wet winters, a tarp can help keep it from getting water logged. 
Our pile is not currently tarped and probably should be. It is hot and sunny here and the pile is drying out pretty badly.


----------



## mudburn

silverbackMP said:


> Mudburn,
> 
> Awesome blog site on your house project; I stumbled on it looking for a different timber frame house blog I read a couple of years ago* I thought hmmm "Mudburn sounds familiar" and I clicked on your farm blog and figured it out.


Silver, I'm glad you found my blogs worthwhile. Thanks for your comment.

I've talked with Thomas, the massiehouse builder, a couple of times. Great guy and an awesome house, too. He lives several hours north of here, so I haven't had opportunity to visit. I'd like to, though.

mudburn


----------



## silverbackMP

Anyone looked at/used a "passively aerated windrow" type setup? This a set up where you make sure you have a good c/n mix and run perforated pipe underneath and perpendicular to the window and cover it with mulch or peat. Avoids having to turn it.

Since I'm military, I need a setup that I don't need to actively manage. I have access to a large amount of hardwood sawdust and bark due to two "pallet" mills near my land. I'm still looking for a large N source. I'm thinking chicken litter if I can find any in north MO. 

I'm wanting to establish a a Chinese Chestnut orchard in the next 3-4 four years; I have 47 acres (35 or so tillable) of marginal row crop ground. I will have it farmed on shares this year and next. After that, I will put it into a timothy and clover mix and start my composting efforts. I figure a year latter I will start establing the orchard. Will use hardwood bark for a 8 foot mulch bed around the trees. 

For equipement I have a F150 (need helper springs), 12000 lb trailer, Massey 65 (with a brand new remanufactured perkins) with a massey 236 loader/external hydraulic pump, 8ft alamo flail mower, spreader, post hole digger, and have access to an old dump truck (which will take about $1000 to put back on the road). On near tearm wish list--add-a-grapple for bucket (already have a 3 spool valve installed), teeth for bucket, middle buster (have a feeling I've got a hard pan), heavy duty box blade, hydraulic top link, 3 pt fork lift attachment (if I can find one cheap),3pt plow and disk and/or a tiller (prefered but $). 


Long range plan is 1) aquire more ground 2) have at least 50 acres in chestnuts 3) run either cattle or sheep--under the trees (with plenty of portable electric) in the hottest parts of the summer to limit mowing.

I need a large amount humus in the ground to avoid irrigation ($$$ for well, $$$ for irrigation, and the water in the area is pretty sufuric).


----------



## mudburn

silverbackMP said:


> Anyone looked at/used a "passively aerated windrow" type setup?


I've not tried the passively aerated system you describe. Of course, I'm really only beginning. My understanding is that if your pile is fairly well-balanced, it will compost just fine without extra turning/aeration if given enough time, like a year. If you build a pile in a ridge about 7 feet tall and maybe 12 feet wide, you can turn it fairly easily with your tractor and loader by pushing it over to get the external stuff mixed in after a few months. I've done that a little in the the last week to a couple of my piles to mix in some of the wood chips on the surface.

With your long-range plans, you ought to start building compost piles now. Once you get a pile built, you ought to be able to let it sit and do its thing. Sure, an aerated pile may compost more quickly, but you can trade time for convenience. If you have the materials to try the passive aeration method, I'd give it a try too, but I wouldn't wait to have that set up before beginning.

mudburn


----------



## Forerunner

Looks like balance has been maintained and adversity concisely thumped on the head when necessary, in my absence. 

I've made good use of the time while offline. 
I'd hate to offend anyone who has issues with effort and determination, but my piles are much bigger now.....
There are a lot less weeds taking up space around the gardens, as well.

As time allows, I'll answer some of the more thoughtful questions posed, but it looks like my good friends have kept the ball rolling without me.

It's tempting to stay away and let the compost effort take on it's own life as it sees fit.


----------



## Our Little Farm

mudburn said:


> Silver, I'm glad you found my blogs worthwhile. Thanks for your comment.
> 
> I've talked with Thomas, the massiehouse builder, a couple of times. Great guy and an awesome house, too. He lives several hours north of here, so I haven't had opportunity to visit. I'd like to, though.
> 
> mudburn


Very impressed with the timber/strawbale house you are building. Love the roof. Do you have an interior plan on your website? I did not see one.

Forerunner.....good to see you back online friend. Hope Rebel Lemming is doing ok with the pregnancy, little one must be due any day right?


----------



## 4crumleys

4crumleys said:


> Hey, I am a lurker for months now and have been composting for about 7 months. I am small time compared to some of you, just one 50 gallon drum that I have set up to spin. The problem I have is the compost forms small muddy balls. I wind up having to break these up by hand. Any suggestions?
> I spin the 50 gallon drum which has air holes drilled around it at least 5 times a week. I mix in vegetable food scrapes, some leaves, and some grass clippings.
> 
> Thanks for your help


Anybody that can help answer this questions?


----------



## Forerunner

What do the small muddy balls consist of ?
Is your moisture level too high ?

The addition of sawdust or even a little dry sand might help break up those balls and drop moisture levels. More specifics would help.
Are you in an area where you could compost on a larger, less high maintenance level ?


----------



## wyld thang

Forerunner said:


> Looks like balance has been maintained and adversity concisely thumped on the head when necessary, in my absence.
> 
> fit.


Aw come on, haven't you ever heard of "iron sharpens iron", or "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger?" (or..."spank me!")


----------



## 4crumleys

Forerunner said:


> What do the small muddy balls consist of ?
> Is your moisture level too high ?
> 
> The addition of sawdust or even a little dry sand might help break up those balls and drop moisture levels. More specifics would help.
> Are you in an area where you could compost on a larger, less high maintenance level ?


I live in eastern NC, the moisture may be high, I have extra ceder chips from dog bedding, would this work as an additive instead of sawdust? The balls them selves are about the size of a large hailstone, they are basically muddy compost. When I break them apart they don't crumble away just like mud.


----------



## Forerunner

The cedar chips may be a little coarse, but if they're dry, they would work for reducing moisture.
In application, your compost balls won't adversely affect your soil.
If you can't eliminate them, use them. Microbes in the soil and regular tillage will break them up soon enough.


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

4crumleys said:


> I live in eastern NC, the moisture may be high, I have extra ceder chips from dog bedding, would this work as an additive instead of sawdust? The balls them selves are about the size of a large hailstone, they are basically muddy compost. When I break them apart they don't crumble away just like mud.


My first compost came out the same way in Western NC. 4crumleys, are you far enough East to have plenty of sand in your soil? I think Forerunner is right - a little dry sand would have helped my first batch, which was made in a plastic tub. We have a lot of clay here. Maybe even just add some of your soil, period?


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## Lloyd J.

Compost balls

I use several different versions of tumblers. Balls of 'post are fairly common. The rolling effect makes them form and I find it is more prevalent with high moisture and long grass clippings. I have found that by putting the materials in first, tumbling to mix and then adding the water seems to help but not always. I usually sift the lumps out and throw them in the next batch. 

Lloyd


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## jlrbhjmnc

QUESTION: We have had early blight in our tomatoes this year, and being greenhorns (2nd year of trying to grow some of our own food) we stupidly put the pruned sickly tomato branches into our compost pile. Our lovely, bigger and better very hard-earned compost pile!

Today we received a definitive ID from the county agricultural extension agent - yes that is early blight. She says next year mulch the tomato plants as soon as we set them out (we got some other good tips over at http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=359983.)

BUT she says our compost should be okay to use.

Any thoughts from you experienced composters and growers?


----------



## Forerunner

I have four different plantings of tomatoes.
They are all four in different soil situations.
The first and second plantings are in good soil, but one patch of soil lays flatter than the other and the massive amount of rain we have had this spring has taken it's toll.
Some of the plants in both early plantings look a bit like yours, Jennifer, though not as advanced.
My third planting was in typical garden quality soil, off the farm, and I even mounded up large hills to keep their roots a little better drained. They still look horrible for all the rain and cool weather. 
My last planting occurred after the worst of the rains, in some of my oldest, best dirt.
That patch is just setting fruit and the foliage is beautiful. 

My conclusion ? The best soils can still fail you in the event of an inch of rain every other day combined with cold weather.
The blights/fungal infestations/bacterial maladies are definitely all compounded by the wet and the cold, likely collectively and singularly.

As for composting problem foliage, yes. Make sure the pile is big enough to heat.
Bury the stuff a couple feet deep in that hot pile and then layer another couple feet of well mixed raw material (balanced C/N ratio, etc.) and then let it rot.
If winter will kill the spores, you can bet that good compost action will do the same.

If you can burn the stuff, that is a viable option, but you can bet that you are spreading those spores as you kick the stuff around to burn every bit as much as if you kick the stuff into a compost pile. 
As for mulching supposedly helping keep the fungus etc. at bay, I've had mixed results, myself, this year. It makes sense on paper, but may not always afford the desired results in reality. That said, I always mulch as soon as possible after planting most garden crops....most....


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Thanks, Forerunner. I do think the pile really heated up after most of the tomato prunings were added - that was back when we found all that freshly cut grass that we hauled back. The pile was about three to four feet high by four feet by eight feet and though we don't have a thermometer it felt HOT and it even got a tad smelly (we didn't add enough of our carbon, newspaper - oops) it still broke down quickly and got much smaller. I don't want to burn; that seems wasteful to me. So we'll follow your tip to bury the rest of the prunings and cover it well with a good mix of C to N. Yay! We're keeping our compost :bouncy:.


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## Forerunner

A tad smelly ?

I love the smell of a hot compost pile steaming in the morning.:bouncy:

From the sound of it, all that your pile needs is more.


----------



## wyld thang

Forerunner said:


> I have four different plantings of tomatoes.
> They are all four in different soil situations.
> The first and second plantings are in good soil, but one patch of soil lays flatter than the other and the massive amount of rain we have had this spring has taken it's toll.
> Some of the plants in both early plantings look a bit like yours, Jennifer, though not as advanced.
> My third planting was in typical garden quality soil, off the farm, and I even mounded up large hills to keep their roots a little better drained. They still look horrible for all the rain and cool weather.
> My last planting occurred after the worst of the rains, in some of my oldest, best dirt.
> That patch is just setting fruit and the foliage is beautiful.
> 
> My conclusion ? The best soils can still fail you in the event of an inch of rain every other day combined with cold weather.
> The blights/fungal infestations/bacterial maladies are definitely all compounded by the wet and the cold, likely collectively and singularly.
> 
> ....


Welcome to my tomato growing world. Sometimes it's a cabbage summer, sometimes it's a tomato summer--compost ain't a magic bullet. Though it sure sweetens the pot.


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## mudburn

wyld thang said:


> Welcome to my tomato growing world. Sometimes it's a cabbage summer, sometimes it's a tomato summer--compost ain't a magic bullet. Though it sure sweetens the pot.


I wouldn't announce how much pot you're growing on a public forum, if I were you (even if it is sweetened by compost). :shocked: :gossip:
What you smoke ain't none of my business . . .

mudburn


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## margo

:smiley-laughing013:


----------



## wyld thang

mudburn said:


> I wouldn't announce how much pot you're growing on a public forum, if I were you (even if it is sweetened by compost). :shocked: :gossip:
> What you smoke ain't none of my business . . .
> 
> mudburn


okaaaaay, so my comment regarding that climatic and rainfall conditions effect the outcome of growth of plants more so (perhaps,... Forerunner gave a perfectly good comparison from his own experience--must mean you think he doing the dope too) than throwing gobs of compost at them is born of a drug induced happy haze? You ridicule the fact that I expressed that where I live the weather conditions vary so much from summer to summer that I have "tomato" summers(hot and dry), or "cabbage" summers (cool and wet), and it's my psychadelic halucinations that temperatures and rainfall make a difference in how heat loving plants grow?

And all you got is to laugh me (and your Forerunner's) climatic observations off as I grow the weed? 

SO back atcha (and this is what I REALLY think this whole thing is all about)

Well I'm upper upper class high society
God's gift to ballroom notoriety
And I always fill my ballroom
The event is never small
The social pages say I've got
The biggest balls of all

(I can't print the rest cuz I'll get an infarction)


----------



## mudburn

wyld thang said:


> . . . You ridicule the fact that I expressed that where I live the weather conditions vary so much from summer to summer that I have "tomato" summers(hot and dry), or "cabbage" summers (cool and wet), and it's my psychadelic halucinations that temperatures and rainfall make a difference in how heat loving plants grow?
> 
> And all you got is to laugh me (and your Forerunner's) climatic observations off as I grow the weed?


I wasn't ridiculing your climatic observations. I was having fun with your choice of words ("Though it sure sweetens the pot"). I thought it was funny. :hysterical:Still do. . . (The effect compost might have on pot is an interesting question, but, alas, one that I will not investigate firsthand.)

You've made it obvious that you think the whole thing about "extreme composting" is a testosterone-induced competition to claim to be/have the biggest and best, and I'm quite aware that you have issues with the whole idea (you're welcome to have all the issues you like, of course). Personally, I don't care who has the biggest compost pile (or the biggest balls -- I'm not much of a social dancer), just as long as mine are big enough to get the job done to my and other involved parties satisfaction. 

mudburn


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## wyld thang

mudburn said:


> I wasn't ridiculing your climatic observations. I was having fun with your choice of words ("Though it sure sweetens the pot"). I thought it was funny. :hysterical:Still do. . . (The effect compost might have on pot is an interesting question, but, alas, one that I will not investigate firsthand.)
> 
> You've made it obvious that you think the whole thing about "extreme composting" is a testosterone-induced competition to claim to be/have the biggest and best, and I'm quite aware that you have issues with the whole idea (you're welcome to have all the issues you like, of course). Personally, I don't care who has the biggest compost pile (or the biggest balls -- I'm not much of a social dancer), just as long as mine are big enough to get the job done to my and other involved *parties* satisfaction.
> 
> mudburn



well that was a little TMI, does your wife know? (just joking, back atcha)


----------



## Forerunner

My poor thread.:sob:


----------



## Trisha in WA

Forerunner said:


> My poor thread.:sob:


Been thinking that for a while now...and it had been going along so nice.


----------



## Lloyd J.

Forerunner said:


> My poor thread.:sob:


Being a new dude to the forum, I am not cognisant of the history some people may or may not have but *I* still like this thread!

Seeing others not only ponder the acquisition of organics for the purpose of composting, but go out and do it, gives me inspiration. Different methods and sources all gives me more things to think about. 

Seriously, you guys rock!:bow:

Lloyd


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## ChristieAcres

Announcing bunny/chicken compost experiment WORKED! I shut the chickens out of the orchard and am out to shovel the garden gold. There are areas of the garden that could use some, but some may go on the mixed dirt pile, to further enrich it with some on top of the garden compost pile. This one is being overtaken by some very happy Delicata Squash growing nearby...since the compost pile is slightly uphill, any rain brings extra nutrients down to the roots.

Some friends were over and the wife remarked, "After seeing that garden, I think you ought to tell your rabbits to slow down..." 

Now, if I could figure out how to get some of those heat lovers to produce faster... Never know in my zone what kind of gardening results we will get. This was a great year for cool weather veggies, terrible for orchards, and now shaping up for the heat lovers.


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## Homesteader at Heart

Forerunner said:


> My poor thread.:sob:


Yeah, where is a moderator when you need one?


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## highlands

Speaking of extreme, I just finished composting one of our largest boars. It took two months and all that are left are a few bones. (no pieces of skin - sorry Tom Lehrer.) I had placed him on a thick layer (1'?) of hay and then covered him with about 1' to 2' of hay. There he lay. He was about 1,200 to 1,600 pounds - the tractor argues for him being on the upper end of that scale compared with picking up the very heavy large round bales of hay. He was a heft. I was surprised at how quickly he went since I hadn't been able to move him into our usual larger compost piles and had to do him alone out in the field.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## wyld thang

Homesteader at Heart said:


> Yeah, where is a moderator when you need one?


the little yellow triangle at the upper right hand corner of the post--click on it to report a post you think is not up to your snuff

just do it


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## rugerman1

We're trying to learn about composting and you're being flippant? I think it's time for you to fly!


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## wyld thang

rugerman1 said:


> We're trying to learn about composting and you're being flippant? I think it's time for you to fly!


he/she asked "where is a moderator" I told them how to find one and make a complaint. being helpful.


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## wyld thang

highlands, did any animals get into it? do you have vultures there? just curious, cuz vultures are supposed to have a super keen sense of smell--I wonder if they would get into some hay like that? (we have cultures here, if the animal is not by the side of the road where they get chased off by cars, it takes the 3-4 days to strip the bones)

(sigh, not that I'm trying to disagree that vultures/scavengers are "better" than composting something dead--although that's how it happens in the wild--I am just curious if something will dig into the hay? like if people have vultures or coyotes etc around)

HIghlands, did you get to butcher stuff off the pig first, or was it not usable? if so sorry.


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## mudburn

highlands said:


> Speaking of extreme, I just finished composting one of our largest boars.


It's great that you could turn your loss into a usable resource. Personally, I would have used more carbon material than what you describe.

I've got 4 large cows in my compost pile now. Last week when I picked up two of them from the stock yard, a member of one of the county boards (I don't remember which one) drove up and asked if I wanted more. The county has been reimbursing farmers the $65 pickup fee they were paying to the rendering plant when they came to get their dead cows. Now that there is no one to take the dead cows, they're trying to figure out what to do. I don't want to be collecting cows for composting every day of the week, nor am I set up for doing so, anyway.

I've put between 2 and 3 feet of sawdust under the cows and try to cover them with as much. That results in a lot of sawdust around them, not just over and under. I won't be digging into the pile for a while, but I am keeping an eye on it watching for coyotes or other varmints digging into it. I also keep performing the smell test -- I don't want it stinking.

I do need to bring in a lot more sawdust just to keep up with the rate at which the stock yard is supplying me with these dead critters.

mudburn


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## Homesteader at Heart

Forerunner, this is a great thread, and the only one that I keep coming back to again and again.

This may have been covered earlier, but I have a question for you and Mudburn. Since you are composting dead animals which may have died from who knows what disease, is there any chance of disease organisms surviving the process and being passed on to other animals? Or do you feel that a hot pile destroys all the bad bugs?

Thanks again for keeping this going.


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## Forerunner

Joe Jenkins is my second favorite hero, next to Ehrenfried Pfeiffer..... for it was Joe's book,
"The Humanure Handbook", that laid out an awful lot of the science behind my madness.
Apparently, anything pathogenic to a mammal will cook off at a mere (sustained) 110 degrees. This makes sense given the fact that our bodies are meant to sustain 105 or so when fighting off pathogens.
Jenkins gives tables and charts with required times and temps; the hotter the temp, the less time required to kill the pathogen. So, use your imagination and envision a happily munching pathogen, basking in the immense satisfaction of having just killed yet another animal a million times it's size.... laying there in the pile.... pleasantly warm........ when the sound of marching boots slowly begins to register.
A rare pathogen it would be who would immediately recognize that cadence.
Apparently Providence made certain that a non-existent pathogen it is who could survive it. It is the sound of the thermophilic military moving in to commit genocide and occupy until all pathogens are reduced to benign soil improvements. 
I like to imagine the slow building crescendo of little pathogen screams as the bloodbath ensues.

Mudburn's above-described liberal use of carbon is the key to composting dead livestock. There is an developing and unbalanced "market" in the dead animal industry.
Sale barns and farmers are being required to pay between one hundred and three hundred per animal for disposal. I doubt I will ever charge for the service that I am providing, but there are many around the country who could and should, for it would make a great business while building very high quality soil.
Mudburn's mention of an interested county official reminds me of some of my experience here, of late. We oddballs are now being sought out for our assistance rather than being harassed by local government, at times. That is a good thing for everyone.
I've yet to see any evidence of predators or scavengers digging into an animal that is buried over two feet deep in carbon.
As for scavengers being preferred simply for a preference toward the "natural" order of things, I don't know what Eden was like before the fall, but we have since been given the admonition to till the soil and wisely steward the land. We have also been given a tremendous array of resources and technologies to facilitate that end to perfection. 
The natural order will suffice in the absence of man, but man was given to steward the earth, and that doesn't come over a cup of coffee steaming in the hands of an arm chair quarterback.


----------



## Aintlifegrand

Forerunner said:


> *The natural order will suffice in the absence of man, but man was given to steward the earth, and that doesn't come over a cup of coffee steaming in the hands of an arm chair quarterback.*




It is such as this that makes this thread so interesting. 

I asked for and received Jenkin's Humanure book for my birthday last week..(LOL..hubby stays confused never knowing what is next)..I look forward to reading it.


----------



## Homesteader at Heart

Thanks, Forerunner, for a great explanation.


----------



## wyld thang

Forerunner said:


> The natural order will suffice in the absence of man, but man was given to steward the earth, and that doesn't come over a cup of coffee steaming in the hands of an arm chair quarterback.


snort at the natural order at your own expense, but stewardship doesn't mean making it over in your own image

and I think you need to be a little more detailed about how long it takes piles to kill bacteria and viruses...and prions if you want to go there(mad cow anyone?) e coli and salmonella can be killed by cooking to a certain temp("fast" heat), but slow heat takes longer, and I would think the longer demands a little more precaution in handling the piles(or situating them, or keeping things away) with pathogens in the process of dying within(and looking for salvation). Do you protect such piles from runoff and contaminating water supplies? (ponds, streams, springs, wells). 

highlands, where did you situate this pig pile? was it remote? did you allow your kids to play on it?

I have a dog I know would dig through hell itself to get to some good dead goo so she can roll in it.


----------



## silverbackMP

I just bought a book that I think most in this thread would be interested in--"Teaming with Microbes; the Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (revised edition)" by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis.

Goes into a great amount of detail about bacteria, fungus, nematodes, worms, compost, etc. I really like the detailed explanations of bacteria vs fungus and how to prep your compost to the benifit of one or the other; this will be very useful when I prep my first 36 acre chestnut orchard.


Got my copy at Barnes and Nobles.


----------



## sgl42

Forerunner said:


> So, use your imagination and envision a happily munching pathogen, basking in the immense satisfaction of having just killed yet another animal a million times it's size.... laying there in the pile.... pleasantly warm........ when the sound of marching boots slowly begins to register.
> A rare pathogen it would be who would immediately recognize that cadence.
> Apparently Providence made certain that a non-existent pathogen it is who could survive it. It is the sound of the thermophilic military moving in to commit genocide and occupy until all pathogens are reduced to benign soil improvements.
> I like to imagine the slow building crescendo of little pathogen screams as the bloodbath ensues.


i love the above anthropomorphic description. very evocative! you really should (in your copious free time!) make some sort of childrens book or something to explain lifecycles and recycling and composting in a way that kids would love. it would be a riot!

--sgl


----------



## Forerunner

Whereas our resident problem child will not moderate it's own attitude, and, whereas the HT administration is gracious enough to allow such subtle malicious undertone to persist, (undoubtedly in the spirit of fairness and forgiveness, two worthy concepts to which I do subscribe) I will hereby cease acknowledging the presence of said problem child either in answer or response, and I strongly encourage all other posters in this thread to do the same.
Said problem child has instigated conflict in other threads, with the unwitting assistance of otherwise good people, (though perhaps lacking a bit of patience and necessary temperance) to the end that good and worthy threads have been closed.
I have no doubt that said problem child intends the same end here, all paper thin and soothing expressions on it's part to the contrary aside.....
Ignore the problem, folks, and though it may take time, it will have no choice but to go away. If we refuse to engage it, the mods will be free to eliminate the problem rather than close the thread.


----------



## Forerunner

Sgl..... I have considered such an endeavor as you describe...and can't help but agree; it would be a riot. 

Silverback... Sounds like good winter reading. I am ever further amazed at the detail of the interworkings of this good earth, and how the entire composting process fits so well into its healing and maintenance. I have to admit, though.... anymore this whole endeavor is so routine, I just build 'em right and let 'em cook.
I'm getting into the old black stuff at the yard waste disposal site in Canton.
It's been there for years, has a few sticks and a little trash mixed in.... and is black as coal. They just keep digging it out from where they shoved it all over the hill and piling it next to the new stuff that comes in every day..... and they just keep smiling and shaking their heads as I gladly dispose of it to everyone's delight.
I've offered to load up several mildly interested individuals who enquire as to my madness, but they all come up with some goofy excuse or another as to why they don't make or use compost. Crazy.

Aintlifegrand...... your appreciation inspires me. Keep putting the rubber to the road down there.


----------



## wyld thang

Well, hey, if the safe handling of pathogens is of no concern, then handle away. I'm not thinking particularly of the INSIDE of a compost pile, but the edges, where temps are much less consistant. Out west here springs and ground water get CONTAMINATED by cow dung(e coli for instance), as well as in other areas with porous soils. If a caution about handling pathogens in areas different from Forerunner's conditions is silly and irrelevant and an issue to be ignored, then that is Forerunner's perogative to do so.

And I really don't care if you ignore me, Forerunner. The moderators are free to delete my posts about tools used to handle compost, composting done on a county wide scale and run by county government, a caution that dead things and poop should not be handled willy nilly, nor the epiphany that despite all one's efforts to steward the land and make it perform like a trick pony, weather will bite you in the butt--and maybe an ear to nature will help you tweak your plans to get some food to grow.


----------



## SueMc

Many yrs ago National Geographic did a very nice article and their cover on compost. There were great photos of the microbes, worms ect., that do all the hard work breaking down the materials. This thread has inspired me to dig through my nat geo boxes in the attic (yeah, I'm one of those!) and find that issue. It's time for a re-read.
Thanks FR for good advice all the way around.


----------



## NEMarvin

Forerunner said:


> Whereas our resident problem child will not moderate it's own attitude, and, whereas the HT administration is gracious enough to allow such subtle malicious undertone to persist, (undoubtedly in the spirit of fairness and forgiveness, two worthy concepts to which I do subscribe) I will hereby cease acknowledging the presence of said problem child either in answer or response, and I strongly encourage all other posters in this thread to do the same.
> Said problem child has instigated conflict in other threads, with the unwitting assistance of otherwise good people, (though perhaps lacking a bit of patience and necessary temperance) to the end that good and worthy threads have been closed.
> I have no doubt that said problem child intends the same end here, all paper thin and soothing expressions on it's part to the contrary aside.....
> Ignore the problem, folks, and though it may take time, it will have no choice but to go away. If we refuse to engage it, the mods will be free to eliminate the problem rather than close the thread.


Many other boards have a feature that allows you to "Ignore This User." vBulletin (software this forum is based in) may or may not, but I believe that it probably does. Perhaps the administrator/moderator could be persuaded to add this feature (usually just and administrative change on the control panel), and we could make it easier to ignore said problem child.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Compost update:

All of the chicken manure/straw was processed very well under the rabbit hutches. There was no sign of the veggies and other materials that were put in, even the kits who didn't make it during a cold snap- no sign of even bones. I believe the heat of those piles helped keep my rabbits warmer during the colder nights, too. 

My garden compost pile is doing more than provide extra nutrients...downhill slightly to the Delicata Squash... It dawned on me just today that pile has been providing additional heat at night, which is why I am getting such excellent growth. I couldn't have planned that one better!

Remembering the gal who ran that Angora farm... Her barn was on a grade...on one side was an enormous grapevine that bore hundreds of pounds of fruit. Maybe I should move my rabbit hutch in the garden OR plant some grapes on the downhill side of them...


----------



## silverbackMP

wyld thang said:


> Well, hey, if the safe handling of pathogens is of no concern, then handle away. I'm not thinking particularly of the INSIDE of a compost pile, but the edges, where temps are much less consistant. Out west here springs and ground water get CONTAMINATED by cow dung(e coli for instance), as well as in other areas with porous soils. If a caution about handling pathogens in areas different from Forerunner's conditions is silly and irrelevant and an issue to be ignored, then that is Forerunner's perogative to do so.
> 
> And I really don't care if you ignore me, Forerunner. The moderators are free to delete my posts about tools used to handle compost, composting done on a county wide scale and run by county government, a caution that dead things and poop should not be handled willy nilly, nor the epiphany that despite all one's efforts to steward the land and make it perform like a trick pony, weather will bite you in the butt--and maybe an ear to nature will help you tweak your plans to get some food to grow.


Having bit my tounge until now, I'm pretty sure the ground water contamination that you speak of is primarily from huge feedlot/confinement operations were said manures (more so with hogs) go into huge sludge pools and become ANEROBIC. In cases such as this, with the right subsoil and water table, I'm sure water contamination is a concern.

I doubt these AEROBITIC composting operations are much of a concern; if they are, then I am very frightened (tounge in cheek) thinking about all those dead deer, elk, moose, and other animals that die a natural death/killed by predators and are left to rot on the forest/meadow floor.

It boils down to simple soil science--bacteria and fungi are the bedrock of all living things, and given an aerobotic environment, bacterias and fungi and higher organisms will outcompete or, in some cases, prey on the bad forms of ecoli (some forms are good--like those in your gut) and most other "bad" organisms.

I am now going to take Forerunner's advice.


----------



## Forerunner

Lori, I just want someone to tell me where the finish line is....
At what point does fertility level off and never show further improvement.....?
If I just had that one little detail, I might take an occasional day off or something.:shrug:


----------



## Forerunner

silverbackMP said:


> Having bit my tounge until now, I'm pretty sure the ground water contamination that you speak of is primarily from huge feedlot/confinement operations were said manures (more so with hogs) go into huge sludge pools and become anerobic. In cases such as this, with the right subsoil and water table, I'm sure water contamination is a concern.
> 
> I doubt these AEROBITIC composting operations are much of a concern; if they are, then I am very frightened (tounge in cheek) thinking about all those dead deer, elk, moose, and other animals that die a natural death/killed by predators and are left to rot on the forest flow.
> 
> It boils down to simple soil science--bacteria and fungus are the bedrock of all living things, and given a aerobotic environment, bacterias and fungus will outcompete the bad forms of ecoli (some forms are good) and most other "bad" organisms.
> 
> I am now going to take forerunners advice.


:thumb:


----------



## silverbackMP

wyld thang said:


> First off, I said I'm not concerned with the INSIDE of the pile where the temp is more consistant and hotter(which I already said. It's the EDGES of the pile, the POROSITY of the underlying soil, and the NEARNESS to groundwater that immediately supplies potable water that concerns me
> 
> I was not talking about feedlots, I was talking about OPEN RANGE, on porous pumice soils in particular(SE side of Mt Hood in ponderosa pine forest). A spring up in the mountains that we use for water when we go there(and take home water for beer btw), is closed occasionally because it tests positive for fecal bacteria contamination from when cows happen to poop on top of the immediate area of the spring and there happens to be more rainfall etc than usual and it gets washed fast into the groundwater. No, the springs are not fenced. The cow poop plops on the ground and "composts" in. In that particular spot it's all the luck of the draw with when the poop gets deposited, and add the rain to soak it in before the sun can kill it/dry it enough. Eventually the spring washes itself out clean. But not so convienient if someone depended on that water, eh?
> 
> Obviously, in this case, it doesn't take much to contaminate a spring when you have cows pooping on the ground above/upwind of it, then a thunderstorm comes right through and dumps rain to wash that down into the spring.
> 
> Animals that die in the forest have their bones picked clean in a matter of days. If it's a healthy ecosystem with predators and scavengers of course.
> 
> 
> My question AGAIN, on the EDGES of the compost piles, where it doesn't get hot, are there any health precautions worth being mindful of?


I know I said I was going to take Forerunner's advice but....

Sounds like a localized issue to me; I am a fan of voluntarily fencing off bodies of water to livestock and utilizing watering systems. Note that for some environmentally sensitive areas this should be mandatory (which I thought it was in Oregon).

Yes, animals that die in the forest is a healthy ecosystem but so is cow manure in a field environemnt (except for localized issues such as the one your describe); they are just replacing what buffalo would have done 200 years ago. Compost is just speeding up this process and as long as there is not a fractured bedrock type situation (very localized issue) there should be no issue. 

I am pretty sure Forerunner's area (not sure on where in Illinois) does not contain a base of fracture bedrock but is probably--from top to bottom--clay/loam, clay, bentonite clay (spelling?), and solid limestone (which is a heck of a natural filter), may also have a little coal deep down (which is also a natural filter). Clay, by its nature, is anerobic ("bad" organisms)--any addition of humus (i.e. lignin and cellulose) will open up the clay and allow the "good" organisms to thrive (with proper nutrients also found in compost) which also creates further aeration. Bottom line; environments are different and "best management practices" may need to be adapted to various environments/climates/local conditions. What is good for the grain belt may not work in an irrigated high desert. 

As far as the answer to your question; most compost piles get turned at least once which re-activate the high temps; also different bacterias, fungi, nematodes, and earth worms work the outside edges which should eliminate most any problems. Note that earthworm's main diet is bacteria and that there are many many kinds of predatory bacteria, nematodes, and other critters (even some pedatory fungi). I doubt that there as many bacteria (and thus earth worms) in a high desert (I'm assuming your in Western Oregon) as there are in the eastern part of the US (middle of Kansas and east). Again--best managment practices may vary by environment. 

Note that I am not (yet) an expert but my thoughts come from observation, common sense, and mucho book learning I've undertaken as I'm getting ready to establish my chestnut orchard and future cow/sheep operation and preparing to start a dual masters from Texas AM (distance) in January (Masters in Natural Resources and another in Agricultural Development--the GI Bill is paying for most of it). I wish I could get a degree in Soil Science but that requires lab work and actually being "in college"--I still need a day job. 

My observation is from watching much row crop ground having the life sucked out of it by conventional farming; my farm (currently share rented to a friend-of-the-family "big" farmer and in Soybeans) has about 0% humus from eyeballing it vs my grandmother CRP farms (in CRP about 20 years now) that are right down the road; her "CRP Farms" have a black rich oxigenated healthy soil. I suspect that if cattle were run on the CRP farms in a intentensive grazing situation, the soil/grass would be even better. Other observations on agricultural practices come from experiences in China, Korea, Japan, and middle east where they have been sucessfully farming "small scale" for millenia. My other life observation is hauling mucho organic material into my parents garden since I was kid. They have switched to notill BTW and are utilzing a complete mulch of spoiled hay.

I'm for anything organic, sustainable, permaculture, intensive grazing, low input, no till, low till, value added, insert current buzzword that can be scaled up--a permaculture "cobb village" is not going to feed the world but a complete rethinking of agriculture might.


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## ChristieAcres

> Lori, I just want someone to tell me where the finish line is....
> At what point does fertility level off and never show further improvement.....?
> If I just had that one little detail, I might take an occasional day off or something.


The problem with a finish line? It means the race is over. What fun is that?!

Q- When the field is ready to plant. You'll have to make that call. What we may see as improvement, may be more than what is necessary. Sometimes, less is more. Other times, more is just right. When I plant Nasturtiums, I know I will get more blooms if I plant in somewhat average soil conditions. If I plant them in rich soil, I get huge leaves and lots of growth, and less blooms. Where I plant Blueberries is higher acid soil than what some of the other varieties prefer. I have to adjust conditions to meet what I am growing and can't use a blanket approach. Paquebot (Martin) speaks of this when he wrote about planting tomatoes. He digs a hole, don't remember the depth, and adds his rich mix specific for tomatoes. I like to dig at least a foot down, and add a few inches of rotting compost, then fill the hole with 1/2 compost/1/2 soil. I'd do something like that for corn, too, or any heavy feeder. 

The answer also likely lies in the depth of fertility you are going for. Would I prepare a field, rather than my beds, for planting, I would determine the depth of the rich topsoil needed to sustain the crops I choose to plant there. Once I reached the conditions required for that particular crop, I would then plant the field, concentrating the richest soil in the wide-rows, rather than the paths. As needed, I would add compost, manure tea, green manure tea (i.e. Comfrey or Nettle as natural fertilizer), otherwise calling that field "done for that year." Using Intensive planting techniques in wide-row would be my preference. I would still be Companion Planting, even in a larger field, rotating crops, and preparing the area at the end of the growing season, to overwinter. I would include a schedule to plant green manures, also.

A great deal can be said for the supporting points of SilverbackMP's post (regarding small scale farming), i.e. :



> I'm for anything organic, sustainable, permaculture, intensive grazing, low input, no till, low till, value added, insert current buzzword that can be scaled up--a permaculture "cobb village" is not going to feed the world but a complete rethinking of agriculture might.


I would consider much applicable for small scale, however, larger scale farming utilizing these principles, requires some sort of equipment and/or a lot more hands. What you have is what you have and you work it accordingly. We would like to get a small tractor, too, to utilize for dirt work (our property is mildly to moderately, to rolling in slopes). We don't have any actual level areas unless we make them that way. 

Since mine is "small scale," I have adapted to much of this, using no-till, increasingly self-sustaining (with a little help from my friends- rabbits/chickens). I have 40 Comfrey Plants and plenty of Nettles (in our back 5 acre forest, where they should stay...), have (10) rabbits or more at a time w/the compost operation under their hutches, and a few compost piles. Our (16) chickens produce plenty of eggs for us to use and we sell the extra. Their bedding must go somewhere, right? When I clean the chicken house (yes, me, my job), I spread all the straw/manure under the rabbit hutches, and some I dump right on the compost pile. That is being layered. 

Important to note here. We have our compost piles away from our source of water and there is no way they can leach into any flowing water. When it rains, they are out of the path of the drainage. I am not concerned about some leaching into the soil where I have these piles (due to our topography, rocky soil conditions beneath, and the water table? You get Artesian Water almost 300 feet down...).

I don't believe there is a broad brush approach you can apply to all of this. One of the reasons I posted my gardening thread was to show the difference in our climate, weather, and the methods I am using. They work for me, HERE, but sure won't work for some climates. If I lived elsewhere, I wouldn't necessarily be gardening in raised beds (French Intensive in wide rows would be my choice).

Back to manure... You would think it a problem for that Rabbit Breeder to have 50-100 rabbits in a barn, with alot of the urine/manure leaching into the soil... She bagged up the manure and gave it away to local gardeners/farmers. She would regularly spray under the rabbit cages, towards the back of the barn, where it would then drain into the ground, where that enormous grapevine grew. How much was too much for that grapevine? It was flourishing and producing hundreds of pounds of delicious juicy grapes. My take? I believe the grapevine adjusted to the conditions and flourished due to them. I have seen evergreens die due to manures being highly concentrated. A grapevine isn't an evergreen.


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## mickm

Found this a few days ago and have spent way toooooo much time reading it. Composting my mind and enthusiasm, you might say!

I live in KS, and have room, almost unlimited materialand enthusiasm. I have started my own version of "extreme" composting , and am a little worried about moisture. Gets awfully hot, dry and windy here. I know I read where forerunner mentioned the moisture of a "semi-wet sponge" Should that be the whole pile? Should I wet it down?

In my smaller compost piles, I always covered and turned. Should I cover my extreme pile?

I have a large supply of horse manure and old hay, both from neighbors. I would love to be able to get a good amount of this ready to put on my garden sometime this winter or early spring, what would be a suggestion from the available gurus?

Soil here is very clay like, it does not drain well at all. I have always grown a small garden, but I would like to greatly increase it next year. Any suggestions on the smartest way to do this would be greatly appreciated!


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## mickm

Oh yeah, congrats to everyone suppling information on this post!

Not the least of which is of course, Forerunner. A driven man, who can express himself is a great commodity! Amazed by the very good writing and instructions, absolute GREAT STUFF!


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## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Mick.
Arid Kansas would be a gratifying challenge to make grow. 

Yes, that whole pile should be lightly moist, never wet and never dry.
If you build the pile with just a little excess moisture, just a little.... it will crust over with a thatch on the outer portion that will keep the interior moist enough in the driest conditions. If you have a way to cover the pile, it would benefit. Shade is an option....keep that sun off when possible. I use my benign carbon layer to protect the more nutrient rich material within.
If I were in your situation, I'd let that pile rot down well before spreading. The rich black that you'll end up with will really perk up that clay you mentioned.
What means of tillage and compost incorporation do you have at your disposal ?


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## mickm

Forerunner said:


> Welcome aboard, Mick.
> Arid Kansas would be a gratifying challenge to make grow.
> 
> Yes, that whole pile should be lightly moist, never wet and never dry.
> If you build the pile with just a little excess moisture, just a little.... it will crust over with a thatch on the outer portion that will keep the interior moist enough in the driest conditions. If you have a way to cover the pile, it would benefit. Shade is an option....keep that sun off when possible. I use my benign carbon layer to protect the more nutrient rich material within.
> If I were in your situation, I'd let that pile rot down well before spreading. The rich black that you'll end up with will really perk up that clay you mentioned.
> What means of tillage and compost incorporation do you have at your disposal ?


A very old and tired, but very dependable Gravely tractor, with a rotary plow and skid, and my 44 year old back! Sometimes my back is less dependable! I also have all the normal garden stuff, and could probably borrow a tractor from a local farmer who is glad for me to take his moldy hay. He even brought down several round bales the other day.

I am afraid my funding does not equal my enthusiasm!


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## Cabin Fever

wyld thang said:


> My question AGAIN, on the EDGES of the compost piles, where it doesn't get hot, are there any health precautions worth being mindful of?


My first post on this thread! I can answer your question. My background is a soil scientist (MS degree). My 30 years of professional experince has involved the management of human waste where pathogens are a primary concern! I worked for 13 years for the largest wastewater treatment facility in the upper midwest where we did do some sludge composting. For the other 17 years of my experince, I've regulated, on the state level, the treatment and disposal of sewage sludge (biosolids), assisted in writing rules and regulation for such, and even helped write the Minnesota rules for solid waste and yard waste composting. Lastly, I have written articles for BioCycle Magazine and know the editors fairly well.

Now that I have your attention, let's talk pathogens. There are three primary categories of composting that result in destroying all pathogens...I hate saying "all"....so, lets just say destroying enough human pathogens so the compost is allowed to be used in vegetable gardens, residential lawns and parks.

Method 1: Window composting where the feedstocks arw layed out in long windows. The compost heats up and the windrow is mechanically turned with a compost turner. The process of heating up and turning is repeated several times to ensure that all particles of the compost feedstock reside in the hot center part of the window for a sufficient amount of time to kill pathogens.

Method 2: Static aerated pile composting. With this method the feedstocks are mixed and stacked in large piles on top of a porous bed ..ususally woodchips. The outside of these piles are insulated with a thick cover of already finished compost. Air is pumped into the piles via a gridwork of perforated piping that is buried in the bottom layer of woodchips. All particles of the compost feedstock experince high pathogen-killing temperatures due to the pile being insulated.

Method 3: "In-vessel" composting. Compost feedstocks are placed inside of a large drum or tank-like vessel. The feedstocks are continuouly mixed and aerated assuring that all particles experince high temperatures. Some methods use large augers placed within the vessel for turning...other methods simply rotate the large drum for the mixing.

All of these method have very specific time and temperature monitoring requirements to ensure pathogen kill.

ETA: since you live in Oregon, you should know that the City of Portland has been composting biosolds for many years. I've known the City's Biosolids Program Manager, Mark Ronayne, for many years.


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## ChristieAcres

Cabin Fever and/or Forerunner- Love to get your takes!

Wouldn't the addition of thin layers of manure, layered with straw, rotting veggies, soil on occasion, grass, Comfrey, and being completely enveloped in all the aforementioned...wouldn't that achieve a hot enough pile? This is a slow pile, constantly being added to. Would there be a concern about pathogens? Anything else I should do or have done?

Another question. I had researched online and decided to compost the chicken house debris under the rabbit hutches. In addition to the regular additions of fresh rabbit manure, urine, water was added, straw, veggies, etc... I let it compost there for 5 months, a bit longer than I planned. When I began shoveling it out from under there, no sign of the chicken manure at all. In one of these piles, 2 months ago, I buried (6) baby rabbits. The kits completely composted in that time, not even bones to be found. Should I have a concern about any pathogens? That isn't something I had thought about before.


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## Forerunner

Generally, I use the gradual layering method in my personal compost piles (including the one I commune with). Joseph Jenkins recommends this method, adding his toilet contents each day and burying the same in carbon. My own experience is that you can "lead" a hot pile any direction you want it to go. Just add material in that direction and the heat will follow. Joseph also demonstrates that a prolonged temp of 110 plus, which is hard to avoid, let alone easy to maintain, is sufficient to kill pathogens. 
My piles are typically 120+ within a foot of the surface. The key is to cover with carbon, which insulates the heating action and eliminates odors and most varmint activity.
When Western Illinois University sent out two biology majors to test multiple samples of my water (several classes of students, usually Anthropology-related, come out to tour and talk about homesteading/composting/food production/political tendencies, etc. each spring and fall) the three of us had a hard time coming up with identifiable strains of bacteria in most samples. The spring is devoid of bacterial activity. My primary hydrant, gravity-fed from the pond, had only one, very benign strain of bacteria show up, and that with effort. The pond, itself, was extremely clean.
The main upper pond, into which the lion's share of compost runoff flows, sported six different strains of bacteria, none of which were identified as harmful to man.
In desperation, we tested a very dark puddle that had recently accumulated right outside of a cow stall. EUREKA!!!! We finally found a scant trace of E coli. 
Now mind you, all of this took some small time in the lab before results came back, but they visited several times and took several dozen samples from different locations, two or more, at different times, from each location. 
I was greatly relieved when the E coli was finally identified. I was coming to think that I was some sort of an oddity, eyeball deep in rotting corpses and no E coli. 

I guess it's safe to say that I don't worry about pathogens, ever. 
There are far greater sources of nuisance to the working man.

Back to Cabin Fever's informative contribution.....

Shortly after the city of Canton welcomed me with open arms, and not really expecting to change any long standing traditions in the municipal sewage waste world, I mentioned to the men I was working with the fact that they had enough carbon coming into the yard waste disposal area to easily soak up and cover the two weekly tandem truck loads of raw sewage solids that they pay nearly 500 bucks each to dispose of some 50 miles away......
They, of course, only raised an eyebrow.
The man in charge did mention that it wasn't so long ago that they mixed the stuff with a form of lime and were "allowed" to spread the resultant blend on local farmer's fields.
People slowly lost interest and they just started hauling it to the Peoria county landfill.
Now I wonder if the current budget would cover the cost and maintenance of a tub grinder to reduce all that brush that gets burned every week to mulch....so that said mulch and grass clippings and fall leaves could all be mixed with two tandem loads of sewage solids each week into a most gorgeous blend of black richness. 
Wow. Makes my mouth water and my hands shake.

Wasted resources really hurt my feelings.


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## Cabin Fever

lorichristie said:


> Cabin Fever and/or Forerunner- Love to get your takes!
> 
> Wouldn't the addition of thin layers of manure, layered with straw, rotting veggies, soil on occasion, grass, Comfrey, and being completely enveloped in all the aforementioned...wouldn't that achieve a hot enough pile? This is a slow pile, constantly being added to. Would there be a concern about pathogens? Anything else I should do or have done?....


In your scenario, the pathogens would come from livestock manure. Generally people are not too concern about this pathogen source. As you know, many gardeners add uncomposted manure directly to their vegetable gardens without a problem. Don';t get me wrong, there is a slight chance of humans getting sick from pathogens in livestock manure...but the risk is very low.

With that said, what is considered a complete pathogen kill in compost is when every particle of feedstock (manure in this case) is exposed to a temperature of 55ÂºC for three days. 

If you are super concerned about pathogens from your manure, I'd recommend two things: (1) the purchase of a long-stemmed compost thermometer and monitoring temperatures in your pile paying particular attention to the temps near the outside edges and (2) composting in batches so you're not "reinfecting" the pile each time you add fresh manure.


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## ChristieAcres

Forerunner and Cabin Fever, thank you both for all the helpful information! 

I went out yesterday to remove all the spent potato plants, intending to dig up about 10#s of them. The All Blues, which look purple...wonder at that name, were the 1st and in a bed with the least compost (I am growing Herbs in this bed and will be removing all the potatoes by this Fall). These potatoes were small to medium sized. I then began to dig some CO Rose potatoes, which we both really enjoy the taste of. They were in the first upper bed which had more compost added in the Spring (growing Pole Beans & Bush Beans in it, too). These first CO Rose potatoes were a nice medium size. I then dug up some of the same type in the front of this same bed (where I had forgotten to remove a very rich compost/manure compost mix pile). This had been placed there when I was spreading it over the Asparagus beds. When I dug under this, I found very large potatoes. I stopped digging potatoes when I was up to 5 of these babies. Here is a picture of Swiss Chard, Zucchini, and Beets grown in beds rather well amended with compost (notice the avg sized potato next to the large one---same age, watering, light---only difference was the extra compost):










The topic of how much compost came up and I am wondering about the yearly application, already am familiar with cover cropping using green manures, and rotation. I use manure teas, green manure teas, and don't add purchased fertilizers. I believe the concern was Phosphorus buildup from compost. If this is the case, how much would cause that and over what period of time?


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## ca2devri

Forerunner said:


> sewage solids


Isn't one of the issues with sewage solids all the other (non-organic) stuff that comes along with it? Many older cities and homes have lead sewer pipes that leach into the sewage, not to mention the stuff people pour down their drains. Which is all too bad that it turns all that organic material into a toxic substance that needs to be dealt with in a landfill.

I'm not sure I would go so far as to put humanure on crops grown for direct consumption though, even if the above was not an issue. I know it's technically doable (the Chinese have done it for millenniums), but I would want 1 more degree of separation from it myself. For example, growing a cover crop or animal forage with the manure first.

Chris


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## Forerunner

I certainly understand the prejudice, Chris. I was there, myself, long ago.
The Chinese do practice direct application, to the degree that the smell of those fields is commonly brought back in the stories of those who have traveled there.
The one glaring shortcoming in the Chinese approach is the failure to _compost_ the material before applying it to the fields.
You mention a desire to implement just one more step between manure and human consumption..... that step is composting. (Funny that no one has made a thread )

Lead pipe residue would be minimal for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that, in the case of old cast iron sewer pipe, the lead is used primarily as an adhesive in the joints and does not generally come into contact with the waste material.
The second reason is the stabilizing/reducing effect that composting has on heavy metals. As for old, lead water pipe, if there is a problem, it may well lie more in the buildup of that metal in the bodies of those that consume the water that flows through it. To date, I've yet to compost a bona-fide city slicker....
Now if anyone reading this thread has ready access to a quantity of dead city slickers, 
and intends to use them in their composting operation, lead might be a concern.
Given the lethargic state of society, I suppose there is a real likelihood that most of them suffer from an alarming buildup of lead in their a***s
Even so, the wide variety of microbes that will be assisting in your effort have an awful lot to say about the quality of their collective finished product. I trust them to remediate the heavy metal issues.

Having witnessed Canton's sewage treatment facility firsthand, I took detailed notice of the various processes that the material went through before being sent to the landfill.
Funny that one of those processes was the mechanical removal of plastics and other foreign debris. If I were to have the opportunity to compost municipal sewage, it would be that plastic, etc. that would aggravate me the most.
If there was not adequate carbon and other benign organic materials to mix with that sewage, I'd be a little concerned about using it/making compost from it. But in Canton's situation, and I suspect this would be the norm across the country (funny how some of these things just work out so) there is enough yard waste generated to facilitate a blend of well over 20/1, yard waste/sewage. Imagine how much more benign material would be available if cities could be convinced of the value of recycling all paper, cardboard, restaurant waste, etc. on down the line.
Over time, given such a strongly encouraged and widely popularized approach to recycling and soil refurbishment, most folks would start paying much closer attention to what they throw away and how they dispose of certain legitimate waste products.
Landfills were established only to make those mysterious friends of high level politicians rich. There has always been a better way to dispose of (recycle) waste, and there has always been a place for not consuming so much waste-generating material in the first place. Landfills have served, as most other popular and near forced conveniences over the last 100 years, to remove people just that much further from some sustainable semblance of reality.

I'd like to see all combustible noncompostables incinerated at very high heat for the purpose of generating local, steam produced electricity.
I'd like to see all compostables turned over to the private sector where they would be duly and immediately composted and used very locally to produce food.
Too bad that such a drastic measure would result in denying big government the opportunity to instigate food shortages on command......
Obviously the waste metals issue takes care of itself, for the most part.
I'd like to see all hazardous wastes composted--even the EPA is coming to admit that they've known all along the extreme value of composting in reducing the toxicity of most hazardous wastes-- though I don't know what best use might be made of them after going through that process.
Anyhow..... I'm going out to recycle stuff.
See you all later.


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## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> I was coming to think that I was some sort of an oddity,


:gossip: Forerunner might be an oddity :shocked: 


:nana:


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## Forerunner

:indif:


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## ca2devri

By stabilizing, you are saying they heavy metals are left in a less volatile (less reactive) form that is less toxic?

It is sad that our current method of consumption and disposal leaves us with vast quantities of permanent garbage. For an outside observer the idea of a landfill must seem absurd! I have a friend who is a civil engineer working on remediation of waste sites and it's some pretty scary stuff. 

Composting is definitely one big part of creating a continuous cycle (rather than the dead-end of the landfill). Now if we just stop buying all that stuff we don't need we'll get rid of a lot of other stuff in the landfill. I say "we" because my family still has bags of garbage at the road. We've tried to reduce it, but we're still contributing. One step at a time I guess. I can at least say that there is 0% compost-able material in bi-weekly garbage bag. Hoping to reduce that to 1 per month...

By the way, this is one of my favourite threads! I am working to get a loader mounted on my Ford 5000 tractor. I'm eager to graduate from shovel and wheelbarrow. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with a shovel. I've moved 50 tonnes of stuff in 1 month before and I think there's nothing better for the body and mind! I'd just like to scale up a bit more and there is a limit to the wheelbarrow.

Chris


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## salmonslayer

I have a more pedestrian composting question for those with more knowlege. My compost pile keeps growing and we are getting great compost that has significantly contributed to our gardens production this year...we didnt even use any fertilizer at all.

But now some of the crops have been harvested and we are going to soon have an abundance of the old stalks, leaves etc and I am wondering if there is anything you shouldnt mix into the compost pile from the first set of crops. I dont really know what I am asking other than is there a type of vegetable or herb that just doesnt compost well and maybe will sprout volunteers or will a well functioning pile kill all seeds etc? 

I just have a nagging feeling that years ago there was something you were not supposed to compost from your veg garden but I'll be darned if I can figure out what that was or if it was just an old wives tale. We are just getting started on composting manure we are getting from neighboring farms and we are getting a kick out of some of the old timers around here who dont understand why we want their manure...fertilizer is very expensive around here but most folks dont compost much.


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## taylorlambert

Forerunner this thread is my favorite one here, Heck its the reason why I joined HT. I work at a private landfill and the amount of waste is crazy. We tried to recycle the wood but after we set up a sotring method most recyclers couldnt meet the demands for Machinery like leaks and spills. I ave an endless supply of alder wood shavings from te cabinet shop. THe company sells them to horse and stable owners for 100 dollars per 40 yard load. The ones that dont want to pay giv us the manure and shavings mix from the stalls. 

I also take in fresh chips, the PC brings them we arent supposed to take from other entities but we write a receipt for them and it counts as purchased for the dump. We use them for erosion control and pile the rest. I turn them every 4 days with the D5 and then when I have my loader or backhoe there I will load a dumpster and take some home. Im trying to locate an old Detroit or Cummins truck motor now to build a windrow machine out of. We use the old sawdust that doesnt sell as a road base on wet days so we can save on road work. after a ew weeks it sours then I push up some small windrows and pick it up with the paddle wheel scraper. 

I move it to a remote location and stock pile and turn there and add a bit of manure to speed things up. I hope I can build a shaker table to screen out some foam chunks that the dozer tracks into them. I have also set up a dump site for the city here for chips and leaves for personal composting. right now I go to their illegal dump and dig them out with the excavator and dry them in piles then I have to shake out the bags.
There was a bigger city about 45 miles away that had a community resevoir with a leaky dam. They sent out a crew composed of not so smart workers and pump and backhoe. They were told by the town to pump it dry down the spill way. There was an over population of river carp in this lake and they wanted to drain it and let them pass ont then fix the dam. Well a friend of mine that happens to work for the same city saw them start diggin the levee. He got there about the time they broke through. 

The water left down the spill way luckily it was the dry season and the ditches were all down. But along the ditches was a large community. An in the drying ditch was 200 tons of carp from wee to 30 pounds. DEQ was alerted and went to supervise the clean up. They had to pic up the stranded carp and put them in trucks. I got a call from my DEQ inspector wanting some shavings for the clean up crew. They came and got about 350 yards of dust. They took the dust and dumped it in a windrow and back drug it to a foot tall. Then back the truck loads of carp onto the tops o the windrow and heaped them with a loader. THe next day a big self trailering windrow turner was brought in and mixed the pile. Then they did it again 2 days later. I d drive there every day after work to see this. THe pile got super hot and smell very sweet not like 200 tons of carp. In a ew days the mixer left and a crew with a Case loader turned the pile. Then they sent it to that towns compost facility.


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## Forerunner

Chris.... my choice of words may not have been the best.
Compost microbes and enzymes actually bind heavy metals in such a way as to protect the plants from taking up what would harm them or us.
As for the remainder of your last post, I am wondering if we might be related....


Salmon..... have no fear.
I lay in corn stalks, sunflower stalks, Jerusalem artichoke stalks and everything else on down. By spring, there is so little evidence left in the black piles, I believe the case would be dismissed. My experience is that compost will reduce any garden vegetable matter to black in the six month dormant season. From the sound of your growing manure supply, you have even less to worry about. Manure is the ultimate compost catalyst. I know well the feeling about those goofy "old timers". What was this world coming to ?

Taylor.... you look to me like an extreme composter in serious action.
I wish all landfills allowed for the level of recycling that you're apparently getting away with. I suppose if we loonies keep pushing the envelope......:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:
I have long wondered about the possibility of composting these goofy Asian carp that are taking over the rivers around here. There couldn't be a much richer source of nitrogen and trace minerals so prevalent in the natural world.
There's no place around here where even an idiot could break a dam or levee to release enough fish to make the effort worth while. 
It certainly sounds like you are opportunity-rich. Keep up the good work.


----------



## taylorlambert

We are trying to get the company to buy us a tub grinder, Our operation is near a chip mill. We get alder blocks and long strips fro mthe cabinet shops. In the summer Ill take a few loads of strips home and sell them as bean stakes. Im straddling the fence on gettin a composting yard permit for my area past the shop, But im not keen to the idea of being on scope of deq. Ive always heard its easier to get forgiveness than permission. DE says as long as I make it for my self its ok. A year and a half ago I added leaves and some bark compost to hill dirt where my side garden is and turn the red clay in to dark rich easy soil. I also used decomposed bark I get free from the chip mill.

I have friend that works at a commercial fish market here and they get charges 9.50 per yard to dump their waste at the transfer station. I wnat to build a layered windrow of sawdust and fish waste. Also several ponds here were imbedded with native carp and they take over. This winter a few will be drained Ive offered the Soild and water Conservation folks a bed of dust to lay them in. I like your idea on the Asian Carp to, Im gonna offer the carp hunters in the area a place to dispose of to. 


We get a real fine sadust we call [email protected]@y dust becaus its so thin and has a few fiberglass fibers in some of it. I m wanting to set up and expirement with composting this and seeing if it will affect worms and if it wont I wil apply to the feilds. Iffin it does I wil ltry to use it as feed for compost tea.


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## salmonslayer

Thanks Forerunner, we will just keep on what we are doing then. My best to your wife.


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## silverbackMP

Forerunner said:


> I have long wondered about the possibility of composting these goofy Asian carp that are taking over the rivers around here. There couldn't be a much richer source of nitrogen and trace minerals so prevalent in the natural world.
> There's no place around here where even an idiot could break a dam or levee to release enough fish to make the effort worth while.
> It certainly sounds like you are opportunity-rich. Keep up the good work.



I've thought about this as well; starting a fish meal fertilizer business (and of course using my own product). Although my place is not exactly by the rivers, the Missouri is within 20 miles and the Grand (a tributary) is within 30 miles. Some of the other smaller rivers may have populations as well. It would be good for the spoonbills as well if some of these were cleaned out. I don't know if it would be economically viable or not.


----------



## Forerunner

Last year I had the opportunity to have lunch with one of the college proffs who brings students out here..... and one of the college's resident marine biologists. 
We were on a field trip showing students various points along and having discussions about various activities and products derived from the Mississippi. 
One of those points of interests was a lock and dam. Another was a biodiesel plant in Keokuk, Iowa. The discussion turned to the Asian carp and some of the issues they raised as well as some of the potential uses for them that were being researched in the area. Apparently there is an interest in harvesting them en masse and making use of their oil for biodiesel and the remainder for plant and animal foods. 
Such possibilities, involving turning a "problem" into resources, have always made my pulse quicken. I have to wonder, frequently, that there are so many fascinating directions in which a man might productively turn his focus, and yet only one body to shoot at the vast multitude of opportunity......

Speaking of which..... Taylor did have to bring up that tub grinder he hopes the company will spring for soon.....:sob:
I so want one of my own to play with.


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## taylorlambert

Yep the dream of a tub grinder, I was sick 2 years ago a man had one with a blown motor. In stead of selling he cut it up and sent it to China. All it had ever done was grind pallets. I ve been lokking into another one a horizontal drum shredder. Right now I gotta get a few projects done here. Fix the hydraulic brakes on my old dump, and reo the lights on my newer one, Build avibratory screen for my free compost Im getting, put a new quick tach on my newly acquired 4in1 bucket for the skid loader and a few other pushers. It helps with the piles being at work the D5 dont take long to roll them. 
Then when I have a truck runnin this way with an empty can I will load it and drop the load off here. I to hate waste last week we had a customer fill a 40 yard can with with 3 sizes of pallets. A few will be made kindling and burned in the heater but the good ones will get treasures from the scrapyard put on them. I couldnt bear running over them with the compactor. Heck our compactor was made from a recycled eller buncher lol.


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## Forerunner

Where you at in the world, Taylor ?
Your operation and place of employment sound like the maniac scrapper's dream come true. Now see..... if everyone with a little equipment sitting around and an eye for resources just started kicking together compost piles.....


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## taylorlambert

I live in Iuka MS but the land fill I work at/ ast manage is in Belmont MS, its a fun job. Folks look at me funny when i say I work at a landfill and its Christmas every day lol


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## ChristieAcres

Yesterday morning, DH & I left on a short camping trip, during which I showed 5 homes to a prospective buyer. While there, we met with a friend of mine and her fiance. They gave us quite a tour of Keyport, Aberdeen, and Hoquaim (WA). During this tour, I saw a sign about compost, asked about it, and was told, "Oh, that is where all the sewer goes. They use that to make compost and sell it cheaply to the public...about $10 for a truckload; people use it on their grass and it works great!" Turns out human waste is a real problem for this area due to almost all homes requiring sewer hookups (high groundwater levels). Their solution was to use it in this compost operation. I really wish I would have asked them to stop to get a picture as I have never seen a facility like this and they sure don't have them where I live.


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## Forerunner

What a tease !!

No pics ?
No details ?

:bored:


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## MrCalicoty

Forerunner said:


> What a tease !!
> 
> No pics ?
> No details ?
> 
> :bored:


Here's something to whet your appetiite... I took this picture 5 minutes ago. The farmer next to us is trucking in loads of manure.
And a nice country fresh smell is exciting the olfactory. It'll be in the air for weeks and weeks to come as they spread this rich
pre-compost about the land.

The piles are a-gleaming in the morning sunlight as the chickens claw at their tractor cages wishing for just 10 minute of
pecking away at the flys. "Please... OH PLEASE let us OUT " they cry! So close but oh so far... 

How's THAT for a tease?

These piles are at least twice the height of the person working them.


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## Forerunner

Now that's what I'm talking about.

Thanks for the photo.


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## ChristieAcres

No worries, I am asking my friend, who lives there to send me the information & I will post it. If there is a site or any pics, I'll post all, too. Shane, the fiance', gave me a funny look when I persisted in asking him questions about it. Len, my DH, even took an interest. We are planning another trip down there, probably next month. Len wants to go fishing. I am going to tour this facility, if possible! My friends will think me nuts, LOL


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## myheaven

Forerunner thank you so much for all your information. It has giving my husband comfort that his wife is not crazy and now has gotten him to lust after compost as I do. He still hasent seen the vision of quitting his job yet to work on compost something about paying the bill (bills are over rated) lol. Compost has worked wonders for our soil. he is now seeing and under standing the bennifets of it. We live on pure beach sand. When we purchased our house and land almost 8 years ago it would only grow jack pine and sand burrs oh and non producing blakberry briers. Now we have 5 acres of lush pasture and 1 acre of beautiful gardens. Green lush grass, grapes, berries of all sorts, and lots of fruit trees. He didnt see the bennifet till you pointed it out lol. 
Hey you should look into g diapers they are awsome and compostable. The newest one can contribute to the compost piles.I use them and love love love them. You can use cloth and compostable inserts. I use prefolds in them. I have had my prefold for 8 years and have gone threw 5 kids. G diapers are as easy as disposable but are reuseable like cloth.

hey like my signature


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## ChristieAcres

The Humanure Compost Facility is in Westport WA. The guy heading this up is Herb Ickenburger. Here is all I could find out:

3 weeks out right now, so supply cannot meet demand. How do you like that?!
$15 yard, so not nearly as inexpensive as I was initially told by my friends.

Engineered Compost Systems
out of Seattle WA set it all up:

Container, wood with bio-solids
Monitors temps
Comes to standard (Class A) 
Computer monitored results
Once/year samples are analyzed
It is used for gardens, lawns, flower beds, everything
Finished product looks like sawdust
Waste sludge is used...14,000#s of cake through belt press, 13% solids off the belt press, to 32 yards of amendment (wood chips from Asplin & also adds sawdust, everything re-used, and tailings from screening), screened, gets 16 yards out of each bin. 4 bins being used. They use a rotary screen. It takes about 22 days to go through the bins, empty in 23 to 24 days. A month and a half to get that pile dry enough to screen---3.5 months to the finished product sold to the local Public. Herb is looking to get more bins due to the demand backlog.

When asked what the community results were, Herb maintained they deal with sandy soil and the compost has greatly improved their soil conditions. 

Unfortunately, they had no pictures to send me. I'll ask my friends if they can go take some for me to post.


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## Forerunner

Myheaven....welcome aboard, and, glad we could get your husband motivated.
Waste IS a terrible thing to waste.

As for the baby, I think Lori is planning to pack it in dried and shredded buffalo chips, just like old times. Now THAT's the original green diaper.


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## Kmac15

LOL does Lori know about that plan?


----------



## misplaced

:indif:


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## katy

Nice to see you post, Lori. In this heat I think i'd be real happy to stand under that pond-shower. What else can you do to cool off ? 

:grit: that's for his twisted sense of humor...............


----------



## Panhandler

Here in Northwest florida and im enjoying the good reading and debates on here. Need help with my compost pile . really hot down here and was wondering if i should keep piles covered up and im thinking i need to water every few days. just added some rabbit pellets and some saw dust.Piles also contain dry leaves ,paper shredds,vegetable and fruit scrapes,grass clippings.Just started my 2nd small pile ,turnning the first pile today.


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## Panhandler

turned first pile and it was dry in spots and alot of ants and roaches.


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## Forerunner

Hello Panhandler.

Yup, sounds a bit on the dry side.
Any organic liquid will do, but don't saturate the pile.
Just envision how much moisture that pile would hold without dripping or seeping.
In the hot and drier regions, tarping is a good idea.
Shade is good, too.
Any time that insects are found deep in your pile, it's a sign of low heat and usually due to a lack of adequate moisture.


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## Panhandler

Forerunner, the pleasure is mine. Its good to hear from you and im IMPRESSED with what you are doing.Thanks for the wealth of knowledge you bring to us all. I will keep the pile watered evert 2 -3 days and keep it tarpped.
P.S. Congradulations on the addition to the family:buds:


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## Panhandler

The tarp is making a big differnce. Pile staying moist and is warm to the touch.


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## Trisha in WA

Panhandler,
Thanks for updating us on your pile. Mine is very dry right now too. I need to sort of box it in as the chickens are scattering it all over creation! Once we get the "box" built, I think putting a tarp at least over the box will make a huge difference. I don't mind the chickens in there...they are adding their deposits too  so I think I'll not cover ours tight to the pile but more of a suspended deal to shade it.
hmmm or even a piece of plywood sitting on top of the box...just thinking here. As you can tell our pile isn't very big right now...we have only been here since May, so it hasn't had much time to grow...yet...


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## mickm

How is Mr and Mrs Forerunner doing?

I has anyone heard?


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

mickm said:


> How is Mr and Mrs Forerunner doing?
> 
> I has anyone heard?


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=361065


----------



## mickm

Thank you Jennifer!

In case anyone else wonders, here is a link to Lori's blog.

http://frmerswife.blogspot.com/


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## Panhandler

Check pile this morning and saw STEAM:sing:,. Looks like im making compost:banana02:


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## Trisha in WA

Panhandler said:


> Check pile this morning and saw STEAM:sing:,. Looks like im making compost:banana02:


WOO HOO Congratulations! Your garden will love you in the spring!!!


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## taylorlambert

I turned my year old pile of wood chips over today at work with th dozer. It was green chips and leaves when they were dumped. I turned them every 4 days. They are now broken down except for the bigger chips. I dont know if I could put this in the garden yet with the big chips, or if I need to screen them.


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## fishhead

If you want a bunch of those Asian carp talk to your natural resource dept about getting a license or permit. Gill nets are relatively cheap and if you can find the fish you can fill up the boat pretty quick.


----------



## featherboa

Great thread. I think I read the whole thing. 

Mr Forerunner, are you familiar at all with Keyline Design? I'm up late reading the books even though I live in an apartment in the city. 

If I'm understanding you right, you're obsessed with compost because you want to leave to your progeny good, productive soil, which is what this system, or design, or technique, whatever, is all about. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyline_design

Thanks for the inspiration. I need to get started.


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## rugerman1

I have a pee-bucket in the garage that I dump on the compost piles,and was wondering what the shelf-life of pee is.Sometimes it doesn't get dumped for a couple days(a week?).Is it best not to add aged pee to a compost pile,just fresh from the spigot stuff?:grin:


----------



## Forerunner

Letting urine age is one of the best things you can do, bacterially speaking.
I occasionally inoculate my piles with manure tea for that very purpose.
Like fine wine, good urine shouldn't be consumed fresh. 

Kudos to Panhandler.... getting a pile to steam in Florida gets you an A+.

Featherboa....I'd not heard of the term "keyline" referred to in that context, but have found myself making use of portions of the concept. 
I like the way they talk about using it to set up areas for populations.... 
The day will come when small communities will again be built with sustainability and long-term agricultural productivity as the main priorities and not as afterthoughts.

Taylor..... if your material is black, I'd use it, even with a few larger chips, especially if you won't be looking to get a crop from it until next year.
I mulch with chips-- sometimes fresh, sometimes older stuff--and incorporate them every fall. Now that my soil is so rich, I never see a nitrogen issue for doing so.


----------



## Panhandler

Forerunner Welcome back !!!! Hope the family is good and adjusting to the new baby. Pile is still steaming,just checked it at 6:30 am. Getting 2 rabbits today to add to my compostting .Going to start 2nd pile today hopefully.Also gonna get some sawdust from mill soon.


----------



## Forerunner

Family is good. Schedule is almost back to normal.

This kid sleeps all night.....no fussing, only wakes up to nurse once and generally finds her way to the motherly assets without assistance. :shocked:
She's very expressive during the day.... maintains eye contact and smiles a lot.
She seems a bit mature for her age.


Now those rabbits.... are they going to be a one-time contribution, or will they be set up to make regular and ongoing deposits to the compost bank and trust ?


----------



## momofseven

mickm said:


> Thank you Jennifer!
> 
> In case anyone else wonders, here is a link to Lori's blog.
> 
> http://frmerswife.blogspot.com/



That link didn't work for me....is it correct?


----------



## Kazahleenah

momofseven said:


> That link didn't work for me....is it correct?


last I heard, she closed her blog.


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## Panhandler

Glad to hear all is going well and almost back to normal.The 2 rabbits will be here on property. So how do you suggest i use their pellets?


----------



## Forerunner

Mix those pellets, half and half, with the sawdust you mentioned.
Then add anything else you need to compost and let 'er heat.


----------



## Panhandler

OK that sound really simple. Thanks again!!!


----------



## Linkon

Forerunner said:


> Mix those pellets, half and half, with the sawdust you mentioned.
> Then add anything else you need to compost and let 'er heat.


How can I get my compost pile to heat up? If I dig a hole in it, it is much cooler than the air down inside it. I have tossed a ton of weeds on it over the summer and I want to make sure I cook the seeds.

Thanks!


----------



## Forerunner

Linkon...... your pile must be dry and/or composed of extremely benign materials (bacterially speaking).

I would get a load of cow manure brought in, or any other depending on what's available, remix the entire pile with it and be certain that the moisture level is adequate.
Should feel moist but not dripping.
The extra added mass to your pile will also benefit.
For good heating, the pile should be roughly equal to the contents of two pick-up loads.
Less will work if conditions are good. More is better.


----------



## Linkon

Forerunner thanks. So whats the best way to go about finding somewhere to get manure - put an add on craigslist or something? Go door to door at the local farms?


----------



## Linkon

Linkon said:


> Forerunner thanks. So whats the best way to go about finding somewhere to get manure - put an add on craigslist or something? Go door to door at the local farms?


I found an ad on craigslist for free horse manure with bedding mixed in about 20-30 minutes away and I sent them an e-mail. I'm keeping my fingers crossed :thumb:


----------



## Linkon

Ok so while I'm waiting to hear from the horse farm, I went out and dug a hole down into my compost pile and you were right - it is pretty dry. (currently my pile is about the size of 1 healthy pick up truck load)

So it just dawned on me that there is a bog right near my pile that is half dried up right now. I took the wheelbarrow to the bog and loaded up on some nice black muck - it is abnout the consistency of wet peanut butter. Do you think this would be a good material to get my compost pile steaming if I add enough of it and mix it in real good?


----------



## Forerunner

The early Rodale books speak highly of bog muck as both a compost ingredient and a stand alone soil amendment. The stuff is high in bacteria content, as is evidenced by the pleasant aroma. 
Make good use of that and the horse manure will be icing on the cake if you get it.
Good mixing will serve you well from the materials you've thus far described as comprising your list of available resources. The muck and/or manure may be wet enough to properly irrigate your pile. Just keep checking for heat, and if it doesn't, add just a little more water. (or pee in it when no one is looking :heh


----------



## Linkon

Thats great. I also heard back from the horse farm, I can come and take all I want and its closer than I thought! Sounds like I should be able to get this thing steaming!!

Thanks Forerunner.


----------



## Trisha in WA

Linkon said:


> Thats great. I also heard back from the horse farm, I can come and take all I want and its closer than I thought! Sounds like I should be able to get this thing steaming!!
> 
> Thanks Forerunner.


Sounds like someone just set the hook on you! I can see you now! The next extreme composter is born! Good for you. Congrats on the find with the horse farm!


----------



## Linkon

Thank you Trish in WA. I put an ad in craigslist and got a number of responses in addition to the horse farm I responded to. I am kind of surprised actually, I never put an ad on craigslist before but it really works and fast!


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## JDog1222

Forerunner said:


> Mix those pellets, half and half, with the sawdust you mentioned.
> Then add anything else you need to compost and let 'er heat.


Here's how we mix our rabbit pellets with our sawdust!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFrxK1cI6l4[/ame]

J. Reed


----------



## mickm

Linkon said:


> Thank you Trish in WA. I put an ad in craigslist and got a number of responses in addition to the horse farm I responded to. I am kind of surprised actually, I never put an ad on craigslist before but it really works and fast!


Craigs list is a wonderful resource for the homesteader. I do a lot of business on it.


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## Trisha in WA

I've been putting our rabbit manure straight into my garden beds. I just mix it in to the soil. It is one of those few manures that can be used straight. We are setting up new beds right now and I am piling it on as fast as my bunnies can make it. I do however have cows and horses that provide goodies for my compost pile.
I am blessed with lots of manure LOL


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## Forerunner

AHA ! The Joel Salatin approach. 

Pigs is good help when it comes to turning compost.
When I first read your note, chickens crossed my mind. Then I looked at the vid. Setting up an appropriate pen for pigs or chickens and building the compost pile in that pen would make good sense. The chickens would scatter the stuff to kingdom come looking for the bugs, worms and morsels. It would be a chore, every couple days, kicking the pile back into some semblance of order, but....
Now hogs, on the other hand, render anything you might throw in there into fairly black muck seemingly overnight. With hogs, you could throw in a five gallon bucket of sawdust or other carbon material each day and really be making time.



JDog1222 said:


> Here's how we mix our rabbit pellets with our sawdust!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFrxK1cI6l4
> 
> J. Reed


----------



## Forerunner

You just seem to be having way to much fun out there.





Trisha in WA said:


> I've been putting our rabbit manure straight into my garden beds. I just mix it in to the soil. It is one of those few manures that can be used straight. We are setting up new beds right now and I am piling it on as fast as my bunnies can make it. I do however have cows and horses that provide goodies for my compost pile.
> I am blessed with lots of manure LOL


----------



## uncle

I too see the need for some extreme composting and have a couple questions.
I've read the entire thread twice now and have a better understanding.
Are Pine needles good or bad for compost? I can get more than I need but I never saw anything growing in pine needles.
Second, My land has not been worked in 20+ years other than bush hogging once a year. When the time comes to spread the compost, would you disc the area then spread and disc again? Would you just spread and use a turning plow?
I'm planning ahead as I haven't started with anything.

Great thread!
Brian


----------



## Forerunner

Hello Brian.

Pine needles make a satisfactory carbon source, but they are a little higher in acid than most. Thorough, hot composting will balance some of that and finished compost helps to buffer unfavorable pH. I don't have any experience with large quantities of pine needles, but if I had access, I would make use and see for myself what comes of it.
I assume you are in pine country.... do you know the pH of your soil ?
If it's alkaline, all the better for receiving the pine needles.
If I was in your situation, I'd take the pine needles and mix them with whatever nitrogen source I had, plus any other source of carbon that was available.
Reduce your percentages, if possible. 

As for incorporating the finished material, I would spread a layer 3-5 inches thick and plow it in the first time. Then let that get rained on to blend and stabilize, add another lighter layer of compost and hit it again with the disc. Then spread and disc as the material comes available after that.
My approach, at this point, is to get as much organic matter worked into the soil as possible. Any imbalances that I have experienced alleviate themselves in a short time.
I'm not concerned with this year's perfect crop, or next..... but to have extremely fertile black 5 years from now and beyond. That said, the natural green manure growth that has been coming up between discings here has been phenomenal.


----------



## anvoj

Are you sure pine needles are acid? That's what I always thought too, but was told by a pro gardener in northern MN that they are actually ph neutral. He uses them in his heavy mulching system. I don't know from personal experience, but he seemed to know what he was talking about.


----------



## Forerunner

Everything I've ever heard was that pine needles leaned toward the acid side, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were just a little more innocent than widely believed. It's not unheard of for those who put the metal to the grindstone to find that commonly held dogma isn't always accurate.

Either way, well composted and aged, I'd use them in my operation if I had access.


----------



## mudburn

I've heard it said that pine needles are acidic, too. So, I just did a little searching. Seems it is a myth. Here are a couple informative links:

Pine needles in the compost

Pine needle acidity: myth or reality?

If I had them available, I'd also use them.

mudburn


----------



## froggyfarmgirl

I read a book recently that had a bit on composting that made me totally think of this thread. It said NEVER EVER put meat, or fecal matter, or urine of ANY type into compost. I thought that might give ya'll a little giggle. I'm not even a miniature composter at this point, but from reading this thread I knew that was..well, crap! Pun intended


----------



## Linkon

Ok, I went and got a load of the horse manure over the weekend. Its very nice and mixed with saw dust bedding. I will have a constant source for this material and it will supply me all I will ever need. He also has some straw bedding and rotten hay I can get if I want to.

Anyhow, I brought home a nice pick-up truck load and mixed it in with the stuff I already had. I did layers - a layer of the manure, then a layer of the stuff I already had, then a layer of manure, etc, etc, etc. I watered each layer with the hose befor adding another layer.

How long should it take for this thing to start heating up? I have a pile about 8' long, 8' wide and 4' high. I'm going to go get a few more loads next weekend but I'm going to use it to start a new pile in a new garden i'm going to till this week.


----------



## uncle

Thanks for the reply Forerunner. I do not know the ph, but it looks like a lot of red clay but with enough loam to not be real hard. It plows easy enough as I hit it in a couple small spots to see what was under the surface.
Our Land fill has a dedicated spot for grass. leaves, etc. that I can get but being there are a lot of pines around I thought I would ask about the pine needles. I'm sure I can get some good stuff and now that I know about the pine needles, I can rest a little easier.
Brian


----------



## Forerunner

Good to hear from Mudburn. 
Someone occasionally dumps a load of pine needles at the Canton yard waste, and I just mix them right in. I'd say we've covered the pine needle issue adequately.

Froggy, pull up that chair over there. You're one of the guys, now. 
You just set those flatlanders straight any time you hear 'em talking trash about composting the good stuff.

Linkon, you're on the fast track now. From what you've described, that pile should be heating within hours, not days. The material list you gave us should put you straight into business for the duration. Your last line brings up a good point....
For those with limited equipment, build those piles right on the edge, preferably the upper edge, of your garden. We don't want to lose any of that good tea, and it's nice to just pitch fork the stuff where you need it come spring.
Compost tea brings up another good book that I don't think I've mentioned yet.
"Ten Acres Enough", by Edmund Morris.
Now that dude was an extreme composter, LOONNNNG before mechanization made it fun. The book is written circa 1850 by a man who moved from big city business life to small farm produce marketing. You'll get quite a kick out of his work ethic. 
But, his hired man, "Dick", takes the cake.
These boys knew how to work a piece of ground. 

Brian, I'm sure if you mix your available ingredients you won't have any problems.
Good to hear that dirt isn't starting out like concrete. It might not take much to bring it right around.


----------



## Linkon

Wooohoo!

I got home from work today and stuck my hand down into my pile and it was HOT. That is sooooo cool!

Thanks for your help Forerunner!
:dance:


----------



## Forerunner

Linkon, I'm not a bit surprised. 

I never doubted you fer one second.:thumb:

Glad to be of service.


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## JDog1222

http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/roadkillfs.pdf

WOW, I did not know that the best way to keep our surface and ground water SAFE is to COMPOST dead animals!


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## Forerunner

Welcome to the real world, JDog.:thumb:


----------



## Panhandler

Would mulched up limbs provided courtesy of The SUNSHINE STATE, on the side of highways do just as well as sawdust with my rabbit pellets? Passed by crew 2 miles down road mulching 1 mile stretch of limbs.


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## Forerunner

Those grindings will take a little longer to break down, but they'll work just fine.

They make great mulch and garden paths.


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## Euphony

WHEW! I just finished reading this thread and had to finally register here so I could post a reply thanking you! Forerunner you have certainly inspired me with both your story and your actions. Seeing your boys climbing the mounds and emulating you by spreading compost on flowers etc warms my heart considerably. I think it's great that mudburn was inspired to start a project on a similar level to you and that you two seem to have made friends along the way  

I myself am an avid composter and I collect what I can but live in an urban rental home where my landlords barely let me get away with having two modest compost piles (thankfully they shrink and get used hehe). I loved seeing not only the massive compost piles but the pictures of your plots with spread compost and proper mulching. I can't believe how few of the organic gardeners here in Portland mulch their gardens - something I find to be indispensable in my own garden. I have worked doing landscaping before and think it's humorous that people are paying quite a bit to dump yard debris and then paying even more to get it back as compost. I've definitely been ordered to rake up and mow multi-acre lots and to make sure I haul away all the debris when there are even hidden areas for compost heaps. 

I would love to see some more pictures go up in this thread. I think it would really revive its original spirit  I definitely had more to say but wanted to read the thread in its entirety before I ventured to post - maybe it'll come to me later 

EDIT: Since I suggested posting more photos, here's a photo from my own compost heap  Having a small compost, they continue digesting organic matter even when my compost falls below the hot composting threshold.


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## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Euphony.

Always good to have another avid with us. Your worm population tells all.

I agree, we need more pics.
Any volunteers ?


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## Lloyd J.

As I am new to this forum, I'd better ask, are embedded or linked pictures preferred?

I usually do the linked so that dial-ups can choose not to look if they've seen it before but if embedded is preferred I'm sure I can figure out how.

Lloyd


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## seedspreader

Lloyd J. said:


> As I am new to this forum, I'd better ask, are embedded or linked pictures preferred?
> 
> I usually do the linked so that dial-ups can choose not to look if they've seen it before but if embedded is preferred I'm sure I can figure out how.
> 
> Lloyd


All you can do is linked.


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## Lloyd J.

Sorry, I used poor phraseology, is it preferred to have a click-able link to go to a picture or have the picture displayed within a post? 

Lloyd


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## Forerunner

Go ahead and display the pic. Makes it simple for the readers.


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## Lloyd J.

I was afraid you'd say that. :grump: I've never inserted an image before. If it doesn't work (and I don't have a lot of faith that it will) then I don't know how to. A computer and a farmer can be a dangerous thing!:smiley-laughing013:


Materials delivered.










De-bagging the yard trimmings into a windrow.









Lloyd


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## Lloyd J.

Well it didn't. I guess I'll stick to click-able links, those I can do.:smiley-laughing013:

Material delivered

De-bagging the yard trimmings into a windrow.

Lloyd


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## Forerunner

I use photobucket to create the link. HT doesn't allow for direct uploads.

..... and, it took me a while to muster my way through what I thought might be the headache of it all, but when I finally jumped through all the hoops, it wasn't so bad and I ran with it. 

....and, after clicking your links...... looks like you know how to have a good time, too. 

If you could mix those leaves and trimmings about two to one with manure......hmmmm.


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## Linkon

I need to do something like this to keep the dogs out of a new pile I started today. Would this work well for a pile about 3 or 4 times this size?


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## Linkon

Has anyone ever composted Alpaca manure? The place I am currently getting my horse manure may be getting some Alpaca's, would their manure be similar to the horse manure?


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## Forerunner

There's no such thing as bad manure.

The bin you displayed looks a bit light duty to me.
I'd use heavier panels or pallets if I had to so configure, but for a short duration bin, it's hard to beat old straw or hay bales....little square ones if need be, but big round--or square--bales are forever. (well, comparatively )

Admittedly, I am rather fond of my concrete bins.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=338293


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## Lloyd J.

That wire bin stands three feet tall. The wire itself is four feet but I bent a foot over so it would not be too tall. I cut it to 25 feet to make that size diameter. It's not welded wire so it's pretty strong and I don't think it would break very easy.

I also used an old cattle feeder and lined it with plastic fencing that didn't work too well.:grumble:

so I lined it with the same wire and it works very well with that. :goodjob:

I also lined one with scrap tin roofing to hold the finished product so it didn't leak out all over the place.

Lloyd


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## taylorlambert

Loyd thats a good looking Case tractor. Whats the fork on the front for? I like the stacker. Im wanting to builds something like that to turn my windrows.


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## Lloyd J.

That was my Dad's tractor. When I bought his farm he sort of threw it in. :thumb: (Is it possible to ever repay our parents/grandparents?)

The forks are designed for picking up fifteen bale stooks. We bale the wheat straw into stooks and use the tractor to move them around if we have to. You can see the stooks at the far end of the windrow in this picture.

I also use it to 'fluff' up the windrows and for moving the bags of yard trimmings around. Overall it's a handy little unit, wished it had a 3 PH but it is what it is.

We got the conveyor/stacker from a guy who was using it for piling his firewood. He broke it and was throwing it out so we took it, fixed it and modified it for making the windrows. The tractor is barely at idle and uses next to nothing for diesel fuel to de-bag a huge pile. Most of what we use is castoffs from others, hate to see good stuff go to waste.

Lloyd


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## JDog1222

OMGosh, I would love to see a you tube vid. of your multi tumbler runningâ¦..THAT IS FABULOUS! I now have a new idea for my old horse walker. It is made from an old tractor axel. I wonder if I could flip it on its side, if I could make it run some type of contraption like you have. Wow, now that is cool!


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## Lloyd J.

Sadly, I do not know how to use youtube. But DD showed me how to make a video on my camera and put it up on flickr...It's pretty boring though...

Loading the tumbler

and

Tumbling the tumbler

Lloyd


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## taylorlambert

Loyd I have made few and there have been some on farmshow made. 

I want to find enough stuff to build a conveyor type windrower to chop and turn te windrows here. I may make a Brownbear type auger turner to do small windrows. Wished I could find a few old cotton pickers to build a medium sized turner for larger piles. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LOoVNVgpWk&feature=related[/ame] 

Someone build tis one for a larger tractor its got a good set up.http://www.ostraticky.cz/produkty/27/prekopavace-kompostu/fotogalerie/
I may copy this one for my skid steer


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## JDog1222

"Boring"â¦â¦âBoringâ! What in the heck are you talking about Lloyd. I can hardly catch my breath! Man, what I would give to get my husband to think like that. That's almost as good as listening to the sound of a diesel engine running...........wish I could think that big, Iâll never b that good.


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## Lloyd J.

DW says it's boring then it's boring. I never got to this age by arguing with a woman.

Whilst I may have come up with the rough ideas of the stuff I want, it's my brother who does the mechanical side to put it all together and should get most of the credit. When I saw the cutting/welding forerunner does, I laughed because it so reminds me of my brother. Find "stuff", add cutting torch, weld where necessary and end up with something useful. I only wish I had such talent.

Lloyd


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Oh, revered compost sage, what do I do?

I am yet to achieve black soil nirvana. We started a 25ft by 25 ft garden 2.5 years ago on hard red NC clay. I started out the first summer raising 2 hogs in the garden which I covered with 12 yards of heavy mulch, ate the pigs that fall then put a half dozen chickens and ducks on if for the winter. Planted the second summer with decent success, then raised another pig this past winter. Planted again this spring and mulched the entire garden with another 5+ yards of wood chips. The garden grew well, but when I go to fork the soil, it has darkened from red to a brown but is still very heavy. I have also started adding charcoal made from hosing down large coal beds left from burning brush to get more carbon yet in the soil. My plan for this fall is to add another 10-12 yards of rotted bark mulch from a local saw mill. Then mulch next years garden with another 5 yards or so of wood chips. We will see what that does... I just can't believe how much biomass I have put in this small space to still have heavy clay soil... Pics from the begining are one of the early posts on our blog below, but I need to post some more recent ones...


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## taylorlambert

Forerunner I have a friend that has a hog parlor with 200 pigs in it. His lagoon is needing some attention and the company he raises for wants to diver the solids for a few days. He has to filter it for a few days. I have a a 20 yard dumpster at work thats off duty now and some permission. What Iwant to do is put about 10 yards of shavings in the bottom and then drop it under the clean out pipe and colledthe solids. Then when it fills bring it out here an dump it in oin of my windrows. I want to see hoy fast i can compost that one pile.


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## Forerunner

Matthew Lindsay said:


> Oh, revered compost sage, what do I do?
> 
> I just can't believe how much biomass I have put in this small space to still have heavy clay soil...


You just said it all. I am still amazed at the lighter spots of clay and sand that show through my deeply composted fields after they're worked. It is amazing how much material one can quickly dispose of in a piece of dirt.

I've said it before.....
I've got a foot or more of compost worked into the whole place....the tillable ground, anyway. Those trenches that I dug and filled with compost, 80 yards long, six feet deep, two feet wide.... still out-do the rest of the ground I've composted by an embarrassing mile. I've got young grapes coming in the last trench, and I plant some garden right next to the grape row for now, until the grapes mature enough to shade the area.
The garden does very well.....but those few plants that are close enough to get their roots into that grape row compost just fly straight off the charts.

So, is six feet of finished compost enough ? I sure hope so. In the mean time, I build piles and let them age. This fall, I have several thousand tons to spread with the dozer. I recently procured an old chisel plow and will be ripping the dickens out of everything that's spread.

From your description, I can't help but think that you're on the right track.
Just watch that you don't incorporate too much fresh carbon.


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## Forerunner

taylorlambert said:


> Forerunner, I have a friend that has a hog parlor with 200 pigs in it. His lagoon is needing some attention and the company he raises for wants to diver the solids for a few days. He has to filter it for a few days. I have a 20 yard dumpster at work that's off duty now and some permission. What I want to do is put about 10 yards of shavings in the bottom and then drop it under the clean out pipe and collect the solids. Then when it fills bring it out here an dump it in of my windrows. I want to see how fast I can compost that one pile.


That sounds real close to what I'd be doing with the same opportunity.
That mix, by itself, will make good compost, but I would blend it with my other ingredients for better balance. Microbes aren't especially picky, but mine are extra cheerful when I take pains in preparing their meals.
They love a variety.


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## taylorlambert

Forerunner I menow gettin leaves from the city and their green chipping. I also have unlimited acess to alder shavings bythe 40 yardload. Italked with a friend at the MDOT and he told me I could have all the Deer carcassesI wanted. How long would it take for 100 pound deer to breakdown in a well mixed pile? The reason I ask is my miniex and backhoe are gonna leased out to my day job this fall and winter. That would leave only the skid steer loaders That dont have enough reach to besafe from a carcass explosion lol. Im abouttotry to build a copy ofthe brownbear/ Ostra stylye turnerformthe littleCase loader. Thecitytold me thycangetme100 cubic yards of leaves perday this fall so Im gonna get lined up. I located an oldtanker today to make a turd hears out of from the hog farm this winter to.


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## Forerunner

Taylor, you've definitely got the material to rot deer carcasses, and any other kind, while yer at it. A 100 pound carcass will disappear, save clean bones, in a month..... in a good, hot pile. I lay my carcasses on three or four feet of a high carbon mix, and cover with about the same. No problem for even a smaller skidsteer.
Have you got your bone grinder picked out ?


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## taylorlambert

Forerunner I spent a good part of yesterday with the D5 at work mixing dry and damp saw dust powder together. Its goes through a heat and mellowes out the dust and makes a good winter road bed and cover. There was many hot spots in it. Im estimating 1200 to 2000 yards are piled at work. I ll catch a truck running this way a once a week and sent 20 yards per trip. Ive seen the pic of your mill is it a feed mixer mill? There naot many here just a few light Arts way units. I have a friend at a bigger town that works the municipal sewage plant. THey have one of those indusrtial turd choppers that will grind blocks and bricks and lumber that gets in the sewer. Its in the junk pile Im bidding on it now lots of good junk in the pile with it. I get lots of deer bones drug in by the dogs to lol. 


I m being tortured now the Tigercat dealer a half mile away has a pair of new Morbark grinders one a tub and the other a horizontal. Both big red beauties on stainless wheels on super single tires.


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## SueMc

I was reading about comfrey's role as a fertilizer when I found a quote attributed to Bette Midler. Thought it was appropriate in this thread:

"My whole life has been spent waiting for an epiphany, a manifestation of God's presence, the kind of transcendent, magical experience that let's you see your place in the big picture. And that is what I had with my first compost heap."


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## wyld thang

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fja3QFLNHQU&feature=related[/ame]


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## rugerman1

I picked about a half a bushel of assorted hot peppers the other day and processed them. 









As I was putting the Habernero/Hungarian Wax/Jalapeno scraps in the pile,I could almost hear them lil bacteria sweating


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## Forerunner

I'm pretty sure there's a strain of southwestern bacteria that will be weeping tears of joy.


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## mudburn

This summer I have focused my efforts on the construction of our timber frame straw bale house. It's been a lot of work with a lot more to do. However, in spite of spending most of my time in house construction, I've still been able to bring in some composting materials.

Since the beginning of July, I've taken all of the dead cows from the local sale barn. The guy who runs the place has been very good about providing materials to go along with the cows, although there's not been a lot cleaned out this summer. He saves what he cleans out of the pens in the barn and aisle-ways for me which has a lot of sawdust. That material along with some wood chips that the tree trimming crew gave me and some weeds I mowed down have provided most of the carbon material I've needed for composting the cows.

The average number of dead bovines I pick up is one per week. This week, they had three dead cows, the most I've received at one time. The weather has been quite warm (90s). So, after sitting at the sale barn (in the shade) for just over a day, they were a little bloated. Since I had three cows at one time to bury in a compost pile, I hauled three loads of 'dirty' saw dust from the saw mill yesterday, also.

Here are the cows and material laying where I dumped them before I pushed things into a neat pile:










Another view which shows some of the sawdust I hauled and the end of the ridge of compost to which the three were added:










Generally, I'm not able to lift the cows with the loader unless I get them just right so they fit into the bucket. But, I am able to push them up on the pile fairly well. For building the new section of the pile, I put a base of dried weeds (lots of stems) and wood chips at least two feet thick. I then piled the cows on top of that and covered them with sawdust and wood chips. Some of the saw dust came from the sale barn and had some manure in it.

Here's a photo after the job was done, including piling up the extra carbon material (the pile on the right):










And from another angle:










When composting large animals, I let me nose guide me: if I can smell them, they're not covered well enough. I have to go back and check on the pile after a few days because as the carcass begins to break down, things will settle quite a bit. I've had coyotes dig into the piles a few times, but that problem is easily taken care of by making sure things are covered properly. Once they discover the 'richness' that is buried within, they come back in hopeful anticipation, but if the carcass is buried properly, they can't get to it.

So far, I have 14 cows buried in the pile with the prospect of more every week. I have to figure out what to do when wet weather gets here, cause I won't be able to get to where the pile is when it's muddy. I'm figuring options.

mudburn


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## Forerunner

I find that a little bloating in the dead livestock is good, and, if the thing is already somewhat maggot-ridden, decomposition happens fast and thorough.
Using slightly manury sawdust to bury carcasses in also expedites the process for the higher bacterial content of the carbon.


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## dragonjaze

this thread is fascinating, but I really shouldn't have been eating when I read mud's last entry...

hmm, the "composting diet"?


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## mudburn

I like to use sawdust that has some manure/urine in it, too. It just feels right, like it will facilitate the composting better than raw sawdust. I really want some of the OLD sawdust from the mill. What they gave me yesterday wasn't that old, although on the third load he dug down to some much darker and wetter stuff, with which I was quite happy. I'll be making regular trips down there for carbon material since they have their loader working again.


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## Linkon

I've been getting sawdust mixed with horse urine and manure and it is amazing. It heats up immediatley and seems to break down everything I toss in the piles pretty quick.


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## Forerunner

mudburn said:


> I have to figure out what to do when wet weather gets here, cause I won't be able to get to where the pile is when it's muddy. I'm figuring options.
> 
> mudburn


I've been coaching some of my sources in the art of mixing and piling the material, themselves, thus saving space and expediting the composting process during those brief periods when I can't get there.
It's amazing how much less bulk and more weight I can get on a trailer after the stuff sits just a few weeks. Then, when dry weather returns, I resume hauling.

It still boggles my mind that folks take all this in and are still _delighted_ to have me come and haul that gold away.....


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## Lloyd J.

After a lot of thought and searching we finally bought a skid steer. It is getting to the point where it was just a bit too much for the old tractor. With the heavier hydraulics the skid steer will take a lot of the heavy workload off of the Case. The tractor will still do the light duty stuff but the skid steer will be the work horse of the compost. As one gets older one begins to appreciate hydraulics more and more.

Lloyd


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## Silvercreek Farmer

I went deep sea fishing this past weekend, and we had around 100 lbs of fish parts that would have made phenominal compost but no way to get them home. If someone lived near the docks they could probably get an unlimited supply of fish scraps. My fishing buddy is also a die hard composter and we were both resenting the fact we had to throw the scraps in the dumpster...


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## Forerunner

Well, at least you had the decency to feel bad about it.....


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## BamaSpek

Matthew Lindsay said:


> I went deep sea fishing this past weekend, and we had around 100 lbs of fish parts that would have made phenominal compost but no way to get them home. If someone lived near the docks they could probably get an unlimited supply of fish scraps. My fishing buddy is also a die hard composter and we were both resenting the fact we had to throw the scraps in the dumpster...


How much carbon material....say grass clippings or sawdust would need to be added to say a 30 gallon drum of raw fish parts to decompose properly. 

I need to read this whole post again. Im still alittle confused about the amount of earth to add to food and animal scraps.


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## silverbackMP

Anyone have any new pictures/updates? I am forced to live vicariously (spelling?) through you all until I get home/closer to Missouri.


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## Forerunner

A thirty gallon drum of fish offal would be enough nitrogen to inoculate up to ten times that much sawdust..... say, up to a pickup bed full.
I wouldn't add much earth to food and animal scraps....just carbon.
A small addition of earth does help to up the bacteria content of more benign compost ingredients.
Fish offal is not benign. 

Silverback..... I'll be sure to take a few pics when I spread the two mountains up in the top field with the bulldozer..... as well as of some of these anaconda/watermelon-sized sweet potatoes we're finding in this awful, residual herbicide-ridden waste land we call black dirt around here.:bored:


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## silverbackMP

Forerunner said:


> Silverback..... I'll be sure to take a few pics when I spread the two mountains up in the top field with the bulldozer..... as well as of some of these anaconda/watermelon-sized sweet potatoes we're finding in this awful, residual herbicide-ridden waste land we call black dirt around here.:bored:


Sweet! Thanks.

SB


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## myheaven

Hey guys I have acess to all the free (all be it kilndried) saw dust/wood shavings. it has small chuncks of wood in it. Wood chunks would be good for fire starting QUESTION is best and fastest way to seperate. I can have them load it with their bobcat but to sit and pick out the wood would be too time consuming. I was thinking a screening method BUT would hardwear cloth be strong enough? Need Ideas and would this be productive. this would be more for a compost toilet, working up to the compost pile. Thanks


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## Forerunner

Half inch mesh hardware cloth, set in a two' by two'' frame constructed of 2x4s or even 2x2s.....would be perfect.


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## Trisha in WA

We have a friends small tractor here for awhile and DH just pushed up all our compost so that we can add more the the front of the pile. We keep it in a fairly small area of about 16' x 10' so it needed to be pushed to the back and piled a little higher. 
It was very exciting for me to see it all piled high like that! Next year it will be so wonderful for the garden!!! I can hardly wait!


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## Forerunner

Taking this endeavor to extremes has been costly, to say the least, but as each new year's crop unfolds, the rewards are incredible.
I don't regret one dime spent, nor one flat tire, 18 miles from home, just before dark.


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## Lloyd J.

Screened almost all of the 2008 material, about another 30 yards to go. Might not get the last bit done due to rain.

Lloyd


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## Forerunner

Now that's pretty. 

I screen mine after it's spread, via kids (and occasionally, adults) with buckets and time on their hands.


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## taylorlambert

Loyd and Forerunner When I get a bit closer to done with it I will show a pic of a vibratory screen I m building to screen my compost and the leaf compost from the plastic bags the city buried them in. Im trying to talk m brother out of the old vibratory plow off his old trencher for a better built one. Im using a honda motor with a belt drive to an eccentric shaft. Not to soud like a chicken but I need to finish my guards for the ecentric Imean 2000 RPM offset shaft what could go wrong.

I did have one screen leaned against an old building Id throw shovel fulls of material on and the heavy anon aver sized would shake off but it took forever. And a booger was ou couldnt screen a bucket load effectivley. I started looking at over priced screens and figured i could build one. I wanted a trommel but I couldnt find a company to roll my screens. 

My next problem is the old leaf compost that im gettin has a ton of nut grass in it. Im putting it where I alread have nut grass. Im also thinking about after screen int the fines out and repiling the oversized and mixing in some fresh to recook it. I had some rotted bark at work and it was loaded wit hnut grass and had a nice 40 ard pile of almost done wood chips and this did agreat job of killin the nut grass.


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## Lloyd J.

We just used some cable connectors to put a pulley off balance. At the right RPM's (1/3 throttle), it shakes pretty darn good. Too fast and it smooths out.

Lloyd


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## JDog1222

I know what you mean by compost and anaconda sweet potatoes. This baby is 11 pounds and a foot long!


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## taylorlambert

Loyd thats a great looking rig. May I borrow a few of your ideas? I have a few questions for you. What kind of bearsings are ou running, Are the ball or tapered. and is the wire tight across the frame. I had a pit manager tell me I I wont get and screening done if they arent tightened on a cam. I like the way you used leaf springs to I was about to use coil springs off a golf cart but cant find the ones I wanted to fit to it. Is one side of your springs set up to slip and one end fixed or are both ends anchored.


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## travis91

Im gonna have to procure a gravity wagon when i get back to alabama and a corner of our land... this has me inspired


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## Lloyd J.

The bearings are just standard sealed pillow block bearings. 

The "wire" is actually a metal screen from a gravel pit. Once they wear down too much, the gravel pit discards them but for compost they work just fine. It is fastened on the edges but the middle is loose and bounces like heck when there is no weight on it. We have various sizes but I think we will stick with 5/8ths for now. I have the trommel if I need some small amounts screened finer. If I need more we will swap out the screen for finer.

We went with leaf springs as they were a) on sale and b) fit the steel frame we were using. Coil probably would have been better. They are fixed on the top end and are loose on the bottom. We found the spring was too stiff and disabled one of the leafs by turning it 90 degrees. If you look close at the bottom springs here, you can see the top leaf sticking out to the side. Next time the unit is in the shop we will probably just cut them off.

The design mostly came about because we wanted to use junk we sort of had on hand. Probably not the best but it works well enough for our purposes.

We just found out a local auction has a compost turner and a bagger coming up. Guy says it will probably go for scrap steel price.:bouncy:

Lloyd


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## myheaven

Lloyd I love the tumbler. I gotta see about making that for the wood shavings.
We are looking at starting a buisness "manure managment" well clean the paddocs and remove the manure. But what is a good price to charge. we have a new tractor with scoop, claw, and back hoe, dump trailor and truck almost all paid for. We need to cover our gas costs. Any Ideas. Alot of people ask us to move and clean their horse paddocs and manure but when we tell them 50 per hour they say no way. They want it for free.


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## taylorlambert

Loyd thanks for the info on the bearings and screens. I have the same screens from an old pit. I made my eccentrics on the burn table a few weeks ago. I have a few old motor options right now. I wanted the ydraulic unit for running it off my old 2 ton trucks remote. I found a giant trommel down south on a trailer thatthe farmer wants the trailer and wants to sctrap the rest. Im trying to save it. Id probably mount it to a 10 wheeler frame and make it self propelled.


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## Forerunner

As promised some time ago...... a few photographic representations of this year's sweet tater harvest and a little compost application to boot.


























I wear 10-and-a-halfs, for those interested in details.

Spreading a small pile in the west garden, next to the driveway and barn.
Note the steam..... cold morning/not-quite-finished compost.
Had to get it spread, though. We had dry ground.  (still do, too)


























Pics of spreading/ripping in and discing a couple for-real piles up in the field to be aired tomorrow eve.....


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## Forerunner

These piles have been active for almost a year. I find very little trace of heat left in either, though there was a bit of potent urea evident. It should really give my bone-dry timber soil a boost come spring. One day, last mid-summer, a local horse trader showed up with a dozen cripples. It is a hard business, that, but we accommodated him, and my eldest son spent an hour or so burying carcasses in the pile I'm working on in the pics. I found the undigested contents of two stomachs, which is oddly common, and lots of clean bones, the bulk of which were near odor-free. There were multiple other carcasses buried in that pile over the duration of it's working existence, and I was surprised at how little evidence there was remaining. As the material is mixed with earth and dries out, the bone pickers will have plenty to do.


















I figure there were well over fifty semi loads in the two piles.
That would be well over one thousand tons. I worked that much material into about an acre and a half, the other acreage being covered earlier with other piles, and one pile left at the top to break down over the winter. The average depth of the material upon spreading has been 6 to 8 inches, and my does the ground look black where we've been.
It never ceases to amaze me how much material can be incorporated into the soil and the soil never seems satisfied. I think of it as job security.


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## mudburn

Nice taters and steam, Forerunner! I've not spread any of my compost yet. Hopefully, we'll have some ready by spring.

The latest news is that the local stock yard was writing bad checks. Of course, it was the fault of the corporation that owns it -- the Eastern Cattle Company. So, it's unknown what's gonna happen yet. Hopefully, they'll get things sorted out soon -- I want more manure! And, there are a lot of people around here to who need a place to sell their cattle.

mudburn


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## Forerunner

Well, there's always that old stuff down at the mill.....

Negativity seems to be going around, these days.
Sign of the darkness to come, I reckon.


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## Forerunner

We finally finished spreading compost for the year.
The last three weeks have been rather intense... spreading, ripping in, discing, harrowing....and then the trash picking.
Just ahead of last week's first rain, we sowed everything in winter wheat.

I think the fields look great.

This is the first view you get when coming to the farm here, from the east.









....and if you look north from there......









The pile up there is the last of the big ones. I'm holding it over 'til spring for several reasons. Namely, it's not quite finished; there are multiple carcasses buried within; I'm going to spread it thickly, where it sits, with the dozer, and plant tomatoes, peppers, melons, pumpkins, potatoes and onions in it. 
Stay tuned for some record crops if we have _any_ kind of a decent year.

Same pile, different shot.









The new pile (yeah, there will always be a new pile :bouncy is located on a patch of ground that I've been working into shape for several years now, literally. It started out as a pond dam, then, over the years, folks with excess concrete, dirt, bricks, etc. have been adding to the back side of that dam, some days by ten or more semi loads. So, consequently, with a little management and imagination, I've managed to turn a humble pond dam into an acre field, and growing. The dam, and field have been sitting up against my north property line for a long, long time..... but, no more.
We recently had opportunity to move that line 300 feet further north, and we've been busy maximizing the field to the north, and cleaning up the woods that is new to us. Where the little tractor is sitting has always been a deep ravine and a tangle of old barbed wire and multiflora rose.
Well, as you can see, that eyesore didn't last long under new management. 










My oldest son, Caleb, has been ramrodding the timber cleanup while I move dirt. There's enough dead black locust and elm in there to last us ten years.









The root ball of that bigger tree on the left was hanging out over a ten foot deep ditch that was about 20 feet wide. The fence tangle was on my side of that ravine.
Note the new compost pile to the right. 









The view here is looking north. The pond is to the right, east. The ravine that is being filled with concrete, etc. to the left, west.
There is always so much that needs built, improved upon, or maintained.
How can one man do his life's work justice in so little time as his allotted 75 years, give or take ?


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## Rusty'sDog

Hello. I am new to the HT forum, and enjoying many of the sub-forums. But I discovered this thread (and it has taken me several days to go through it, post-by-post), and am thrilled. It validates my 'crazyness'. When I mentioned to a friend that I will be trying to find a couple of tons per week of raw compostable materials, they thought I was crazy. After reading this, I am looking more towards a goal of a ton per day.

Some fool, who obviously doesn't understand soil dynamics, was harping about 'when is enough enough?' Within practical limits, I do not think there is an answer to that question. Think of the math: 40 tons of finished product, spread on one acre equals about 2 pounds per square foot - the weight of 1 quart of water. Considering that the soil & crops will easily consume that amount, how many years would it take at that rate to increase soil organic matter 1%? It could be a never ending challenge.

Considering generations of NOT feeding the soil, it will probably take generations of feeding the soil to get it BACK to what it should be.

Thank you Forerunner, and everybody who has contributed to this valuable thread!!!


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## Forerunner

I've been rather letting others say their piece here, and was waiting for some other composter/enthusiast to speak up after Rusty's encouraging intro.....but, alas, the cat has _every_one's tongue, of late.

Welcome aboard, Rusty (or his dog, whichever the case may be )
It's heart warming to make the acquaintance of yet another extremist-in-the-making that _gets_ it.

I don't know, though...... a ton a day may be setting your sights a little low...
If you've pickup and a pitchfork, you're already on the fast track.
May your energy levels always match your ambitions.


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## margo

Hey Forerunner,
I've been following this thread from the beginning, and have to say I am in awe what you and others are doing. Here, we compost horsemanure and whatever else we can get. Not on the scale of yours, but, doing as is available with limited equipment. Our garden over the years is greatly improved from gooey clay to mixed though still heavy. More to be done but it IS a process that is rewarding both for now and for future harvests.

We have some acreage we are going to use for pasture here, after timbering and brush cleanup, so the information here on the forum is guiding the planning. Some is hillside where we'll have to prevent erosion and work around a wetweather spring or two. Information and examples in this thread show us what is possible thanks to all of you.

Be assured that this thread is not ignored. I find it very interesting and inspiring. However, whitetail season is upon us, and you know, priorities have to shift for awhile.  so we are out freezing our toes this morning.
My thanks to all the contributors to this thread.


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## Rusty'sDog

I plan to grow a lot of my own materials via cover crops. While waiting 6 months for a pile to mature, I can grow an additional 5 tons/A which will be sending roots deep into the soil to help create worm tunnels and organic matter deeper than I can plow.

If you are interested in cover cropping, the best book I have found is "Managing Cover Crops Profitably" produced by Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE).

It is available FREE in PDF format here: covercrops.pdf (application/pdf Object)


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## Lloyd J.

I too check in here a few times a week but with winter upon me I have nothing going on in the composting department so it's volunteering season.:nanner:

I am still in awe of forerunner and was in deep thought with his "life's work justice in so little time as his allotted 75 years" comment. I have often given thought to the pioneers who settled the land and created our fields out of the bush. They must have laboured for many many hours to get the land to a state where I can drive my tractor over it. I wonder who these people were and if they ever gave thought to the future generations that would benefit from the sweat of their brow.

We never did get the last 30 yards screened, rain and then snow shut us down. It'll be there in the spring!

Lloyd


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## Trisha in WA

Rusty'sDog, welcome!!! I haven't been around much in the last few weeks. 
We are building our new compost pile at a pretty good pace from our barn cleanings this winter. At about 2-3 wheelbarrows full everyday, plus kitchen stuff. It has been so very cold here lately (sometimes as low as -15 but normally about +20) that I don't think my pile is going to do enough to be ready to use in the spring even if I stop adding to it. The back might be close though. I guess I still have several months before I need to worry about it LOL
I know it's not on the scale of some of you guys, but I am happy to give it all I can anyway


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## Freya

Awesome piles everyone!!!!! :bow:


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## ChristieAcres

It has been awhile since I have been on to post... We used our compost piles in 4 new raised beds 4' X 20' (garlic mostly). There is an area behind those raised beds for another in-ground vegetable plot. Interjecting here...raised beds are a must here where it is very wet, rainy, and soil has drainage issues. Our goal is moving towards Permaculture, however, I will look for any and all opportunities to get discards of compost materials from all givers! Forerunner, you remember how I buried the dead litter of bunnies (born during a cold snap) in the composting manure? In only six months, there wasn't a bone to be found. Our compost piles were rich, black, and wonderful!!! In the Spring, I'll be taking pics of those 4 new beds, to show the progress. Some rotting compost was put at the bottom of a few of them, covered with straw, Comfrey leaves, rotted compost, composted manure (rabbit/chicken) and a dirt/compost mix. The Garlic Cloves/Bulbils were planted last month. We are using what is left of our composted manure in our Asparagus beds. Back to Permaculture. For our property, that is a wonderful way to utilize, conserve, and also produce abundantly. It also requires compost, and diverse plantings. Just recently, I watched a video showing a Permaculturist harvesting Comfrey, using it to mulch around his fruit trees. That is also a wonderful compost igniter, can be used to make fertilizer with, feed livestock with, and made medicinal treatments (Salve, Oils, fresh applications). Nettles are another wonderful herb to have, many uses, too, including fertilizer and medicinal treatments (wild edible & tea, too). Our little orchard will be my first Permaculture conversion. The rabbit hutches are in there with room for compost piles. Once established, less work to do. I plan on growing a lot of different vegetables in my orchard. Yes, Freya, want MORE awesome piles here!!!


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## Bluebird

Expecting 16-20 inches of snow last night and today and so it's a good time to catch up. We've had quite a bit of snow already this fall and it's fun to see the tops of the compost piles (so small compared to most everyone's here) bare to the weather from the heat that is generated within. Anxious already to begin spreading that this spring.I expect that with -25to -30 tempts to come, those bare tops will disapear. Stay warm everyone!! Welcome Rusty!!


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## Bluebird

Oh, and thanks for the picts Forerunner! I am forever amazed. What are your are in the buckets that your boys are tending to?


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## Forerunner

We're just wondering here what that storm you refer to is going to leave us.
So far, just a little occasional drizzle.

Those boys, (and Rachel) are picking up sticks, rocks, bones, pop cans, etc. out of the compost that we get from Canton and the sale barn. Most other sources come fairly free of debris to begin with. I cherish my trash picking crew.


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## Bluebird

The bags of leaves that we get from the city crews have all sorts of things in them as well but I pick them out as I empty the bags. (Small time in comparison to the work you and your family do, but I am happy to have all the leaves for sure) Lots and lots of snow here and high winds. 4 foot drifts as I walk out to the kennel. Truck is stuck as my right hand guy has been trying to keep ahead of the worst. Gotta go help...... this must be the kind of storm that my grandparents have told me about, when they used a line of rope tied to the barn from the house so they wouldn't get lost on the way back from evening milking. Getting hard to make out the trees across the road. Gotta go help....


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Half inch mesh hardware cloth, set in a two' by two'' frame constructed of 2x4s or even 2x2s.....would be perfect.


I have a 6'w x 4' long 1/2 hardware cloth set upon concrete reinforcement supported with 2x6 slanted to self slide. I just throw material on top across the screen. Top is bout 4 and half ft. bottom is maybe a ft. I have some barn tin on the bottom keeping the big stuff out. I can screen an 8ft pick up bead full in 4 hrs or so. But I tell ya I like the trommel set up I saw in earlier post. It looks to be bout 4 ft long made with hardware cloth and bicycle rims with an angle iron frame. Should be very easy to make. It could easily triple my output. One could use rivets or small bolts and washers to fasten the wire. I would make it high enough to use my small loader to move material. go to apolice impound auction and buy some old bicycles with straight rims. Maybe 5 -10 ea and sell the frames to some one else at the sale.


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## Lloyd J.

This may be the trommel you are referring to, we built it using the frames from the fuel tanks we got for the multi-tumbler. The bikes we had laying around and the motor was a spare for an auger we don't use much anymore.

Lloyd


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## am1too

Lloyd J. said:


> This may be the trommel you are referring to, we built it using the frames from the fuel tanks we got for the multi-tumbler. The bikes we had laying around and the motor was a spare for an auger we don't use much anymore.
> 
> Lloyd


I am curious as to how much it cost you? How big is the motor? 1 to 5 HP? Does it run off 110/20? How long is the tumbler? I guess 6-8 ft. What is the aproximate angle of the tilt? What kind of production do you get? 

I can get a 6.5 HP generic honda engine for 150 which would alow me to run it any where without a generator.


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## Lloyd J.

Total cost? Under a hundred bucks but we had a lot of the parts/materials already.

Motor? I think it is a 1/2 HP motor from a 4 inch pencil auger, plugs into a standard 110 outlet. (not waterproof so needs a cover or store it inside.) With the gear reduction it turns about 20 rpms. Any faster and it flings the stuff.

Length? Six feet. (good guess)

Slope? Can't recall. I think the low end is 12 inches and the high end is 22 inches but don't quote me on that.

Production? I can do a yard in under an hour, faster if I don't use the tubs or stop for a beer.

Did you see the slideshow?

I'll try and get a video of it working next season.

Lloyd


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## sticky_burr

lorichristie said:


> Composting may have to be "my baby" until I can get DH on board. On converting spouses? Appreciation around here goes a long ways.
> ....
> I am wondering how I can possibly make composting together sound romantic...


show him the fertilizer bill / cost of bagged compost


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## greg273

The nearest town collects leaves with a big vacuum truck. And they are glad to give it away, by the dump-truck load. Got me about 20 tons of the stuff, nicely pre-shredded. Been filling in bare spots on the place, building compost piles with horse manure, etc.
Theres plenty of organic material out there, you just have to look around and ask the right people! More often than not, they're just looking for someone to take that 'useless waste' off thier hands!


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## ChristieAcres

sticky_burr said:


> show him the fertilizer bill / cost of bagged compost


He is on board now:happy: When we bought compost, it was by the truckload, not the bag. Changing our methods a bit, making/using our own compost, and making our own fertilizer:clap:

My next project is our orchard, a Permaculture type conversion, which works for the topography, weather, challenges in it, and I am looking forward to using every bit of the compost we are making, rabbit manure, chicken manure...


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## sticky_burr

ok ok back  finished reading it all lol last comment was partly thru the tread 
as for "mass composting" not being natural it is. ie if a seasonal or beaver flood knocks down a tree and it catches debris heading back twards th river . also reintroduce a few millon pooping bison dropping their goods on trampled prairie grass of course we have to truck it to the pile of "prairie grass".. yes it is different but it is seen in nature to a point.
as for the cost/free thing i would say 110% charge the town something if its 3/4 - 1/2 - 1/3 of their normal cost they will be happy and they wont refund the tax money budgeted to dispose this but 'waste' it elsewhere.
now for questions .. what IF we were to use an anaerobic digestors to make methane from critters and people to make some power. what is left? is it still high nitrogen to make compost? 
green manure.. could or should someone plant say clover into a pile / row. will it survive? since volunteer plants do well wouldnt a targeted plant that will fix nitrogen to the pile be better? is it better to clover and plow under a field or add clippings to compost? if mechanical cost was irrelevant. or rowing cut ground cover from say 4+ runs and adding material ie excess carbon or manure into the rows and if the snow isnt too bad turning the rows over to start the break down instead of just plowing it under. and then spreading it? 
btw thanks for the thread was interesting


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## taylorlambert

One reason not to charge for taking leaves and material is that when you do that you be come a commercial operatrion subject to certain rules. Lots of small clean fills have been shut down with this rule. When you become commercial you have to either remove, cover, or be permitted as a landfill or commercial compost site. 


I know a man that was taking stumps and tree wastes from the county and others. he was taking in 5 bucks a load. That made him commercial. but with out a Permitted liner and certificatin he was made to close it down and cover up. They told him to not charge for it and it would be ok. 


I can take all the trees trunks branches and, chips and leaves as long as I dont charge for it and as long as I use it for personal use such as mulch firewood, and for onsite composting. 


Its a bunch of BS but its kinda sticky with all the illegal dumps folks threw up around here.


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## Rckymtnhigh

Hi there this thread is amazing! thanks for all your amazing info Forerunner, Mudburn and everyone else. I currently live on 1 Acre in the city so my composting can only get so extreme but you guys have inspired me, and I can't wait for some land to try this on.

Currently i have around 150 bags of leaves that I have collected from neighbors and I am hoping for 50 more before the end of the week. Once a week I get food scraps from a Chinese restaurant I used to work at and as soon as I have a truck I will do more. My pile is steaming in the middle of the Colorado winter. Took a temperature reading last week and we were pushing 145 in the center, although some edges are cool. Once we have a better/more nitrogen source I imagine it will heat up very quickly.

My current question is what kind of a chipper/grinder would you guys recommend I saw forerunner you had said you tried a Canadian and Finnish brand? Which would you say works better? I plan on purchasing land in the very near future and then taking my composting to a more extreme level so I am okay buying something that is more than I would need now so it will also do larger scale jobs when I get to a more extreme scale.


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## Rusty'sDog

RE: chipper/shredder. For a small scale operation, almost anything (other than a home owner's back yard model) will do. I was looking @ a brand that had a 2", and 3" limb capacity model avail. I was opting for the 3" model, because it is built more solidly than the 2" model...and face it, anything over 2" is going to be fuel wood for me. It would have been perfect for feeding material onto the pile. Now that I have become addicted to this thread, I realize that it had a major 'design flaw': it discharged the finished product at, or near ground level. Now, I need one that will throw its discharge UP into a truck bed (pick-up, or dump).

A serious consideration should be tow-ability. Any decent shredder will give a 10:1 ratio. If you can tow it to/from your material site, that means you can make one trip instead of ten trips...gas savings will pay it off quickly (to say nothing of time savings).

I think my bottom line is to look at the one you think will best serve you...and then buy the next model up from that. Otherwise, you will end up buying both, and the first will sit, rusting, in your barn. Buy once (the proper one), not twice.


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## Rusty'sDog

The thing about this thread that amazes me, is the number of farmers (people that *should* know better) that will allow you to haul off tons of (what should be) a valuable commodity.


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## sticky_burr

i was thinking much bigger as when i doze up root balls/stumps up when on new land if i can find it. along with if i take down a rotten tree for $ or half rotten . i would rather toss as big chunks into it along with any "scrap" 6x6 and 8x8 (chunks and peices) right into it.

OH heres one .. i cant use mahogany and teak in the pile .. right ... ship yards around here


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## Forerunner

The Canadian "Wallenstein" chipper is much less expensive, but the "Valby" does an incredible job of reducing the material to near sawdust consistency.
I believe the quality to be high in either machine.
If you can afford it, or have time to watch for used machines, I would highly recommend a tub grinder, though.....much more versatile and built to handle h*** as a matter of course.


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## taylorlambert

SWe were about to get tub grinder ath the landfill I manage to reduce some of the wood waste. And pregrind the surplus for easier compaction and we have to have a liuttle wood in the fill to maximize compaction. I went to a site and wastch one in dr waste and it was amazxing but this one stayed on fire lol. THe wood would get hot and catch. It wil lbe a few more months before I get my pass on it if things go well. 

The best part of it that all the big stumps we get I can grind and bring home.


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## Forerunner

I've wanted an industrial tub for some time now (as opposed to agricultural--much lighter duty), but, as I was telling the fellow at the sale barn the other day..... time will accomplish the same thing. We were discussing tubs, as he has one for grinding hay.

I've seen what I believe to be low end serviceable units go for anywhere from ten grand to fifty, and, of course, the big rigs in mint condition get crazy at three to five hundred grand.
The deal is, perfect mixture of materials; no blades to sharpen daily, if not twice a day;
MUCH more horsepower; reduce a full-sized carcass to paste and grit, while simultaneously mixing the same with carbon  ; and, like Sticky Bur mentioned..... throw in a whole stump or root ball, dirt and all, and forget about it.

Wow.

Makes me break out in a cold sweat.


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## mudburn

Forerunner, that is a beautiful thing to imagine! That'd be better than new knitting needles! :thumb:

I can imagine another scenario in which you fabricate your own tub grinder. I'm thinking an old dump truck or semi as the basic frame and power unit, a heavy duty tub constructed out of salvaged materials, and a whole lot of ingenuity which you possess in great quantity. I can visualize the beauty of the monster you could create and the sounds as you joyfully toss in a carcass or two and a stump. . . Ahh, pure bliss! :icecream:

When do you need me to come help? I'm thinkin' good times! :buds:

mudburn


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## Forerunner

Knitting needles are MUCH cheaper and more readily available, but.......

I have concocted many a salvage yard tub grinder in my imagination.
Let's let the weather settle a bit.... maybe after syrupping, right before the gardening dam breaks wide open.

I have a tandem AND a single axle, both dump truck frames.... to work with.
*whisling innocently*


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## taylorlambert

Forerunner I may know of a burnt tub grinder its a smaller one. It had a 290 Cummins on it and a friend bougfht the motor to go in an old scraper. Imagine the sound of it wit ha Detroit on it. It runs standard teeth. SOme of the bearings on the tub may be goin out but they are standards. 

It was mounted on an old self propelled Prentice log loader frame. It was set up at a MRF site used to grind windrows that were dumped out. It put shredded matter into another windrow. I think a windrow caught fire next to it and burnt it. I think the conveyor belt is a little damaged to. It would be a good buy at scrap price. Id like to have it for the farm but work will get a new larger one like a Wood Hog. 
I think the one that is salvaged is a Bandit or Brandt.


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## Forerunner

Way too many irons in this fire to be able to take advantage of that at this point in time.
Can't you make a go of an opportunity like that so close to home ?


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## taylorlambert

Insufficient funds here lol. Ive got to repair some termite damage to my old house and a living room to remodel. And I Have 2 dump beds to build a green house to remodel and My dream I want to buy and old excavator under carriage to make a windrow turner. I may see what the low ball on the grinder is, I could I cant skip the remodel Or my wife would compost me lol. 

Ive been saving material and hydraulics to build such a turner. I have a question for you . In the picture of your road building what Make is your dirt pan and the Yardage and HP requirement. Im looking at one to save it from the scrap yard.


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## am1too

wyld thang said:


> the model in this thread is a few people practicing ongoing hoarding of compost resources from a wide land area. Meanwhile, the land the materials were taken from do not benefit from those composting resources. Stuff is concentrated in a few areas. The question I like to ask with a method (in this case my "issue" is hoarding) is can it be done with everybody doing it. After all, don't y'all want everyone to compost? In the future a lot more everybody will be (forced) to grow their own and heal the land. Ongoing hoarding is unsustainable--it is indeed unworkable on a large scale.
> 
> I think it's entirely worthwhile to consider an action against traditional "viewpoints" such as conservation, "social justice" (for a lack of a better word--I just mean hoarding takes resources out of the hands of other people, or makes them fight for them), sharing, knowledge of the cycles of the land, even things like gluttony come into play.
> 
> Again, the simple question, can everyone in an area do this(hoard and concentrate materials from hither and yon). Obviously no. Does nature do this? no.
> 
> That is not to say there isn't a lot of good composting science going on in this thread, albeit a "little" weighted towards upper midwest climate and plants etc. Nor am I saying it's "wrong" to gather stuff to jumpstart some sick land. Just stating IMO that this action of "extreme composting"(ongoing hoarding) is the action of an elite few among their village to concentrate composting wealth.
> 
> Whoever can decide for themselves if that is traditionally affirmative, or even worth thinking about. I'm glad to see a few have.


In grass cutting season the city trash amount nearly doubles do to grass clippings. To make use of this is not hoarding anything. It just goes to the land fill and increases garbage colledtion fees to deal with it. A town near my place collects yard waste seperately and save a bundle on land fill. They compost it. All you can haul if you load it for free twice a year. Makes the city look better. And helps me to. I drug maybe 30 cubic yards home for spring and could have had 10 times that. Just lack time and money. I could use probably a few thousand tons.

If you want to do your own compost, they will load up all the pregorund and mixed material you can haul. Their stock pile even caught fire once or twice.


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## Forerunner

Taylor, my little pan is an Ashland, 5 yard. My 150 horse 4630 Deere does a pretty satisfactory job with it. In drier times and harder clay, I rip the area where I'm getting the dirt and that makes the loading much more efficient, but usually, it loads fine by itself.
I have rigged up and tied into the ripper circuit on my dozer..... half the horsepower, and with the crawler under carriage, pulled the pan just as well, just slower.

Am1..... good to see that you're on board with reality.
Make use, not waste.....


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## taylorlambert

Thanks Forerunner I bet the pan did great behind the dozer. When dad was 15 he started running an old TD18 with a 10 yard pan. Im sick of seeing all the good implements going overseas. Im thinking about getting a bigger tractor and this pan. I have access to the self loading JD scraper at work but its a pain to get a lowboy to move it. 


Am1 ditto on what Forerunner said. I manage and operate a private land fill and we started taking from some of the public and the city yard waste pick up. In the summer and fall it doubles like you said.
Its not hoarding as folks wont get out and pick it up. We get the material free and Im not certified to compost at our site. I bring it home and compost it. I know a lot of folks in town that want compost but wont even rake their leaves for it. THey will rake them and curbside them though.


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## jlrbhjmnc

taylorlambert said:


> I know a lot of folks in town that want compost but wont even rake their leaves for it. THey will rake them and curbside them though.


Yep - when you ask to take away folks' grass clippings and leaves for composting, you get some funny looks. We've become so conditioned to buying instead of doing! This thread (and HT in general) has helped our family train our minds differently and we're having a blast.


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## am1too

taylorlambert said:


> Thanks Forerunner I bet the pan did great behind the dozer. When dad was 15 he started running an old TD18 with a 10 yard pan. Im sick of seeing all the good implements going overseas. Im thinking about getting a bigger tractor and this pan. I have access to the self loading JD scraper at work but its a pain to get a lowboy to move it.
> 
> 
> Am1 ditto on what Forerunner said. I manage and operate a private land fill and we started taking from some of the public and the city yard waste pick up. In the summer and fall it doubles like you said.
> Its not hoarding as folks wont get out and pick it up. We get the material free and Im not certified to compost at our site. I bring it home and compost it. I know a lot of folks in town that want compost but wont even rake their leaves for it. THey will rake them and curbside them though.


Thanks for the welcome from both of you.

I am curious as to how one might convince a small town to seperate yard waste for a possible fee or free pick up or seperate delivery.


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## Forerunner

Thanks to EPA (wonders never cease) it is actually "illegal" almost everywhere, if not.... to mix yard waste with regular landfill waste. Of course, that may be just Illinois, so close do I follow the progress of the nation's over-regulated status.

If your particular municipality does not separate the material, you may just have to bite the bullet and take the initiative to make your case for reason.
You may be surprised at the cooperation that is afforded you.
You may be shot down immediately.

Personally, I'd just wade right in and start sorting the stuff out, myself, until someone came forward with enough clout to dissuade my efforts.


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## sticky_burr

unfortunately here the town possesses a stone quarry, probably came with a huge cost, where building debris and stumps are thrown .. along with a few way ward cars in winter (RIP). although i bet there is some nice organic matter in the bottom along with lead and asbestos. we're all safe as long as granite is not at all cracked or porous.

would planting a legume on a pile die from the heat?
how would one pump in a very controlled matter black water/septic sludge onto a pile? i wouldnt put town sludge onto it but our own wouldnt be so bad.. 
if one was able to set up a biogas digestor for human/animal waste would there be enough nitrogen left to compost?
thanks again


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## Forerunner

I like to plant on top of piles that have aged for several months.
Your success growing anything on a compost pile will depend largely on how well C and N were balanced when the pile was built. The exception is a pile that has sat for a long time...

Running household grey water through compost is a good idea.... IF your piles consist of enough mass to handle the volume of water, and heat enough to clean that water up suitably. My advice would be to switch to as natural of soaps and cleaners as you possibly can and work on cutting your water usage tremendously.
We're down to an average of less than 25 gallons a day for a family of seven, so, it can be done.
Methane production is said to potentially enhance N to the point that further composting is often preferred to balance and buffer that potent ingredient.
I'd say, half spent sludge/half sawdust. What a blend. :bouncy:


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## am1too

Rusty'sDog said:


> RE: chipper/shredder. For a small scale operation, almost anything (other than a home owner's back yard model) will do. I was looking @ a brand that had a 2", and 3" limb capacity model avail. I was opting for the 3" model, because it is built more solidly than the 2" model...and face it, anything over 2" is going to be fuel wood for me. It would have been perfect for feeding material onto the pile. Now that I have become addicted to this thread, I realize that it had a major 'design flaw': it discharged the finished product at, or near ground level. Now, I need one that will throw its discharge UP into a truck bed (pick-up, or dump).
> 
> A serious consideration should be tow-ability. Any decent shredder will give a 10:1 ratio. If you can tow it to/from your material site, that means you can make one trip instead of ten trips...gas savings will pay it off quickly (to say nothing of time savings).
> 
> I think my bottom line is to look at the one you think will best serve you...and then buy the next model up from that. Otherwise, you will end up buying both, and the first will sit, rusting, in your barn. Buy once (the proper one), not twice.


Those are usually bolt together plates. I would look close and see if it could be flipped without to much trouble. Or how about setting it up on some blocks or change the shoot.


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## sticky_burr

Forerunner said:


> Running household grey water through compost is a good idea.... IF your piles consist of enough mass to handle the volume of water, and heat enough to clean that water up suitably. My advice would be to switch to as natural of soaps and cleaners as you possibly can and work on cutting your water usage tremendously.
> We're down to an average of less than 25 gallons a day for a family of seven, so, it can be done.
> Methane production is said to potentially enhance N to the point that further composting is often preferred to balance and buffer that potent ingredient.
> I'd say, half spent sludge/half sawdust. What a blend. :bouncy:


i will be seperating off black water toilet and gray wash/rinse water. gray i will likely just irrigation or pump into a wee home made wetland. i am thinking of putting the nasty stuff to use


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## taylorlambert

Im working on a deal now to take 150 Cubic ard load of mixed grass, hays straws, and leaves from anoter landfill 150 miles away. MDEQ and I are talking now how to do it legally as an on farm set up. If I can long term lease another filed I will build piles there. I would be getting 2 loads weekly for 3 months.

Landfills value thier air space at 1.50 to 5.50 dollars a Cubic foot. They want to divert as much as they can. I had to get certified to run our landfill this year as a state wide recomndation. I met alot of landfillers that just mix there yard waste in with rubbish. Its a shame to after seeing what a couple tons of leaves tilleed in my gardens did for the soil. 

The city here throws their stuf in an illegal dump bag and all. Im debagging them and also setting up a place to take from them. Our town and county dont charge the resident to bring stuff in but if I bring it in an a 2 ton truck I get hit with 9.50 dollars a yard. The county wonders WHy they cant maintain euipment and have no budget when residents bring in tousands of tons per year on trailers. 

What Im working on if I cant get it is that they will take the yard waste and pile it. THen leave me a trackloader ot that site to load my trucks THen they dont use space or have to handle it 4 times.


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## bjacobson

I have just finished reading all 25 pages of this post and I really got the itch to do more composting. I have done it on a small scale for 20 years or so but I can really see how Forerunner is improving his land with his piles. That compost looks so nice and rich, I am sure it will do wonderful things for your soil.


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## silverbackMP

bjacobson said:


> I have just finished reading all 25 pages of this post and I really got the itch to do more composting. I have done it on a small scale for 20 years or so but I can really see how Forerunner is improving his land with his piles. That compost looks so nice and rich, I am sure it will do wonderful things for your soil.


I know what you mean. Back home, I know where there are several acres of sawdust around several sawmills. 

Gotta get my dad's old dump truck running (full sized mid 70s International w/ 400 cummins), new/recapped tires on it, etc.

My tractor does have bucket.

Still trying to figure out a nitrogen source that I can procure while home on leave. I'm thinking either chicken/turkey manure or just dump a bunch of regular nitrogen fertilizer in the mix to "speed things" up.


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## greif

there was an accident on a farm near by last spring, a guy fell in the tub grinder and his wife found him after he did not come home for supper, grinder was still running.

I know some of the fire dept guys that had to go to it and they had to just run the aguer to get him out.... nothing left..... be careful


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## Forerunner

I've given this some thought.

I can see the attraction.
I've spent the last few days imagining myself with my very own, brand new, 500 horse tub grinder. I can see myself standing on the platform, elbows on the side of the tub, chin in my hands, smiling so big I make a scene for the bystanders.... watching all manner of carbonaceous, nitrogenous, trace mineralous, tree stumpness, brushness, weedness, carcassesness and roadkill, etc. get ground to paste and mixed to perfection. 

If anyone ever finds my remains in the bottom of a running tub grinder, my only wish is that they add enough carbon-rich material to balance my very personal life-long accumulation of nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, sulfur and various trace minerals and then run me and the rest of the rich blend into a deep, hot compost pile to rest happily in peace (and pieces).


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## taylorlambert

Icould see it now Garden centers bidding for Forerunner in a can.


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## Forerunner

For the newbies and otherwise innocent-at-heart, it should be known that there are some nuts and bolts articles on various stages, applications and concepts of composting in the Survival forum. Angie put them all together in a sticky, but here they be for convenience sake.:thumb:

Compost as a Matter of Survival
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=328510

Compost as a Matter of Survival, part twol
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=328752

Compost, part three, The Pile
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=329548

Composting 4, Vermiculture and Various Thoughts
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...d.php?t=331442


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## am1too

I am wondering a little. I talked to the extension agent the other day. I suggested that I was going to just spread my compost over the top of the dirt and plant grass. He said not so good and idea. I really don't have a way to till and have to many stumps that would make things next to impossible. Lots of small stumps (3" down) are kick removable in 3 to 5 years. I have just been cutting them off at the ground. Have stumps upto 30".

The links did not work for me.


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## Forerunner

Spreading compost thinly over existing sod or bare dirt works just fine.
I try to spread mine, say, in an existing hay field, just before a rain so that the nutrients are somewhat washed into the soil rather than sitting in the sun to deteriorate.
If you spread good, finished compost over existing soil and plant grass in it, and the weather is in your favor, you should be successful in your intentions. Tilling it is always better, but not absolutely necessary.

Could we have a moderator look into why the links from the Survival forum composting sticky won't work ?


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## mudburn

Hey, Forerunner, it looks like the links left something out. Here they are:

Compost as a Matter of Survival
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=328510

Compost as a Matter of Survival, part two
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=328752

Compost, part three, The Pile
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=329548

Composting 4, Vermiculture and Various Thoughts
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=331442

You can put these in your post and I'll delete this one if you'd like.

Edit: actually, when copying and pasting, the links leave out part, replacing it with ". . ." so then they don't work.

mudburn


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## Forerunner

The devil is in the details. 
Thanks for correcting that oversight.


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## mudburn

I'm glad to help, and now they are actually at the top of a new page. Even better!


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## txplowgirl

Hi everbody, I just read this entire thread today. I'm a little woozy at the moment but I just wanted to say to you Forerunner and Mudburn. The two if you ROCK :rock:
I'm just a wannabe homesteader, but when I was a kid my dad did the gardening and it was my job to take care of the compost piles. I miss those days of burying my hands deep and coming up with handfulls of that beautiful black stuff. 
Right now, I have a small house in the middle of a little town and with all the regs they have I wouldn't be surprised if composting was against the rules.
I'm a truck driver so i'm not home all that much, but my sweetie and I are talking about getting a bigger place.
I was telling him about wanting to do some composting and he thought I was nuts. So, I see i'm gonna have to convert him. lol, Anyway, Forerunner thank you for this thread.


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## dancingfatcat

Just wanted to let you know that my compost pile, after turning it twice is nice and black and will be ever soooo wonderful come April, when I plan on using it.

Yes, I have started yet another "new" pile . And as a side note, most people, gardeners and friends think I am crazy when I ask for their bags of leaves and grass clippings, I just smile while thinking, "black gold!"

Thanks for the education in composting


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## Forerunner

Thank you, Plow Girl and Fat Cat. 


The local sale barn here is a family owned holdout that is doing quite well, many other small and major sale barns in the _state_ having recently shut their doors.
They have wisely enhanced their use of wood shavings and sawdust, though those commodities have increased dramatically in cost in this area in the last ten years.
It is becoming a very full time, part-time job keeping them cleaned out.
My new new pile is rapidly becoming another mountain.
Good thing I just picked up another acre of flat to the north of (adjacent to) my existing upper field in a recent acquisition of largely forested ground.
There is a deep and wide ravine that runs parallel to my new north line, just south of my new north line :thumb:.....that runs quite a bit of water several months of the year before it dries up in late summer.
I have a bulldozer...

Within a year or two I may have to open up an _extreme hydro-power_ thread.....:bouncy:


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## Trisha in WA

We just started a second pile here last week. I am planning to cover the first one (16'x10'x4') with a tarp to keep in the heat and moisture (very cold and dry climate) and hope that it does a nice job of cooking for use in spring. I know it isn't a huge pile, but we are still using just what we can generate and doing it with a wheelbarrow and shovel. I think we're doing OK. OH if only we had a tractor (sigh)


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## Freya

Forerunner said:


> Within a year or two I may have to open up an _extreme hydro-power_ thread.....:bouncy:



There had better be a TON of pics!!!! :dance:


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## dancingfatcat

Trisha in WA, sounds like we are building the same pile the same way  
Hey, my motto is "what ever works!"

funny thing is, most people I know think I'm a little crazy when I talk about my compost, but that's ok


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## ChristieAcres

When people tour my garden, I often hear "everything looks like it is bionic or on steroids" or some other exclamation of wonder. My response? COMPOST, LOTS OF IT! 

Forerunner, that rabbit hutch compost experiment was so successful, I am doing it again! We have that going and a few other piles. Our results have been incredible! There are four new beds, mostly Garlic, with a lot of both the composted manure and our own compost mixed in. The results will speak this year! Most of my Elephant Garlics were over 1# and my Purple Striped German Garlic reached 1/2#. There is an area for traditional gardening behind my beds. Still planning that one. The entire orchard will be my next gardening venture. That will require a lot more compost!


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## Forerunner

I'm trying to work about a half acre that I have laid in 4 feet deep with finished material into an orchard......but it keeps getting used as the new pile grounds.....and it keeps getting expanded in three directions....
Hopefully, this spring the project will settle enough to get some cherry volunteers set out permanently.
I have several large piles going, including the three next to the house.
It sure is gratifying to see that snow won't stick even in 0 degree weather. 
...... and that the cats love to curl up on top of the piles by the house to keep warm.


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## luv2farm

lorichristie said:


> Forerunner, that rabbit hutch compost experiment was so successful, I am doing it again!


I'd love to know about this! What did you do and how did it work?


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## ChristieAcres

luv2farm said:


> I'd love to know about this! What did you do and how did it work?


My three larger hutches came with my rabbits a few years ago. One houses two larger cages, another three larger cages, and one four cages. These outdoor hutches are up off the ground, with at least three feet of space between the bottoms of the cages and the ground. I have Mini Rexes and a Mini Lop. Every few months, I clean out the chicken house. All that is spread underneath the rabbit hutches. I begin layering it with Comfrey, and any other scraps that normally go in the compost pile. Occasionally, I toss a little straw on top of the piles, shavings, leaves, etc... Since I'll be semi-cleaning out the chicken house this week (leaving a few inches, adding straw on top of that...builds heat in our chicken house), that will go under, and I'll be done adding that material. It will be allowed to compost until Spring, then I will start all over again. Meanwhile, we have two other compost piles, not big ones... Seems my projects keep me needing more!

I asked Forerunner about my manure composting idea, and he encouraged me to move forward with it last year. Thanks! Yes, it worked great, too. Now, with my plans to turn my orchard into a garden, the compost will be right there (hutches are in the orchard).

Forerunner- Enjoy hearing about the cats  Cute! We are experiencing a warm spell, so I am going to take advantage of it. That will be followed by cold weather again before we know it (and lots of rain).


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## maverickxxx

Im glad to see im not the only one out there with monster piles of compost. I actually use mine for making topsoil. I got into cause im an excavtor and could never get any good topsoil. It was to sandy no nutrients smelly or grew weeds. I got one pile ready for spring about a thousand yards. I also screen straight compost for peoples gardens. I am actually setting my yard up for my homestead. This year im going to have my first garden on my own property.after reading this im very excited for spring now. The great thing is how people call me back weeks or months later to tell me how its best garden they have or lawn. Some people even bring their lawn clippings or leaves which is even better. I got my fresh pile with no snow on it and weve had about three feet of snow and just got down with two nights -20 and it has broke 30 degrees in almost amonth. Its cooking. I collect all year long i got a couple horse stables i collect from. I hual it all with my mason dump and sometimes with my dump trailer. With both full its about fifteen yards @ a time. I try to move my piles at least a couple times. And it takes me about a year before its burned out. Theres alot of joy in having some of the best soil around. I hope this thread is still going im the spring. Ill have pics then. My ultimate goal is to have my own landscape supply buisness and my own self substaining homestead. I have produced some biodiesel and hopefully have some time to work on some radiant heat out piles and maybe digester for making methane. Of course i got more ---- than anybody. Prolly 2500 ydslol


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## Forerunner

Sounds like you're on the right track, Maverick.
We're gunna hold you to those pics......


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## nebraskafarmer

Hey, all I have been a long time lurker here on the site and on this thread to be specific. I am what you would call a "commercial farmer" from Nebraska. I also market garden and have for years. I have composted most of my life (although not on the scale that forerunner and mudburn), however, the wife and I recently put in a new house on a wonderful clay hillside closer to some of my farm ground and my composting ambition has been renewed due to the nature of the ground at our new home. I just wanted to introduce myself and to thank the both of you for your efforts on this thread.

James


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## Forerunner

Hello James, and, good to have you so enthusiastically aboard.
Many commercial farmers take issue with this approach, if not the suggestion that 
composting is the superior approach to long haul food production.


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## nebraskafarmer

I wholeheartedly agree that over the long term that the return of organic matter to the soil is the best for fertility. That said as a farmer who is still in business (and one of the few who actually operated on a cash basis rather than mega operating loans leveraging him to the hilt), I know that in order to farm the number of acres that a commercial farmer does in this day and age it becomes necessary to utilize chemical fertilizers. As a compromise of sorts I guess, I don't use any chemical fertilizers, nor insecticide or herbicides in the market garden operation. Also I want to say that I agree very much with the discussion on here that we are running headlong into the day that commercial agriculture as we know it will hit a point of diminishing returns in all aspects including fuel used, soil fertility, etc, etc... So I guess I will continue like most on here to strive for a more self sufficient less dependent lifestyle (still dreaming of the day when I finally talk myself into that oil press to make camelina a worthwhile crop for personal biofuel production). Also on that note I have a question about a post of yours a while back, where you stated that since going offgrid that you use 3-4 gallons of gas a week providing power for your house and shop. Just curious if you only use limited electricity at certain times and most times go without or? That question has just bugged me.

James


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## Forerunner

Curiosity understood.

At the time, I was using an old Wisconsin 12.5 horse to run the alternator and occasionally a belt driven air compressor.
I've got a battery bank of larger truck and heavy equipment batteries that I keep charged, and run that current through an inverter to the house.
The air goes to any one or all of several old LP tanks that I've refurbished and fitted for storing that commodity.
Now as to the specifics of your question, we have found, most emphatically, that the best way to facilitate the most sustainable home electricity production is to learn, by and large, to do without electricity. 
That said, we generally use our biggest loads, i.e. laundry, heavy duty kitchen blender, light shop tools etc. while the engine is running, and save the batteries for incidentals like radio, laptop, etc.
...and, all told, we were using the amount of gasoline referenced to accomplish those purposes in any given week.
Funny thing, though... that Wisconsin (whose magneto needs rebuilt, I fear) maxed out at about 650 rpms, and we typically ran it about one third throttle after reaching cut-in speed on the alternator. (alternator came from a scrap ambulance and puts out 195 amps in spite of its 165 amp rating)
I have since mounted that over-sized alternator on my diesel 3010 Deere and idle it almost down to a crawl..... which is still over 650 rpm, running the juice through a pair of very heavy duty welding cables to the power house....and we are using less diesel now than we were gasoline before.

Afterthought..... for the main shop, I've acquired a Miller, LP fueled portable welder/generator. I don't use that often, at all, but when I do, (11,000 watts) it's nice.
On the average, we charge the system at the house for about an hour a day. 
The 3010 burns one gallon of diesel, at idle, every 4-5 hours.


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## taylorlambert

Before we had power at the landfill we used a CHonda/ chinese honda copied 13 hp generator. It would run an airconditioner in the office and few lights in the shop for 8 hrs on 5 gallons of gas. We got an old Studebaker/Onan single cylinder diesel generator. It had a 10 gallon tank and would run at a slow governed idle. It ran for 8 hrs a day for 12 days.


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## maverickxxx

I was wondering if anyone has looked into making anysort of digestor to capture methane from piles. Most of my compost comes from manure and then i mix at my shop. It would be nice to get extrme power and hot water from the gaint piles. Has anyone tried anything with running water through piles to get hot water like the jeanpain methods. I havent seen anyone thats actualy made it work 100%


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## sticky_burr

i was thinking anaerobic digestor then composting the left overs but not sure if there is enough nitrogen left


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## Forerunner

Plenty of nitrogen left...... enough, in fact, that an addition of an equal part carbon will get you as nice a steaming pile of compost as can be had.
Spent slurry from anaerobic digesters is far better composted than spread in it's raw form.
Think of the stuff as being similar to the spent contents of _ your_ stomach after a few days therein...... see what I mean ? 

As for the doing, don't wait for the movie.
Write the books yourselves.


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## Phantomfyre

This thread needs a disclaimer: May cause intense compost envy and/or encourage the acquisition of large equipment. I've been following this for a long time, and am finally just posting now to subscribe so I don't miss updates.

I've been busy and out of town since posting the dump trailer thread, but am home now and going to pursue purchasing one and securing sources of large quantities of organic matter. Shouldn't be too hard...

One idea I'm playing with is using composting in my unheated greenhouse as a heat source to moderate the temp in there. Took a while to get things cooking because I started with cold materials in January, but the approximately 3.5 ft. square pile (in a bin made with pallets) is going now. Future ideas include pumping water through lines coiled inside the compost pile and into barrels to add heat to the thermal mass that water already provides.

Thanks for the inspiration, Forerunner! And to everyone who has contributed!


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## Trisha in WA

Phantomfyre, that is a great idea! I have a very small greenhouse and I bet that would work very well. In fact, we have not yet put the cover on this new greenhouse and one side (raised bed) is yet to be filled. I bet if I were to put the right mix in there, it would warm up nicely and be ready for planting by summer. I am planning to plant on the side that is filled as soon as the snow melts off of it (we'll be putting the plastic on this month).


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## Rusty'sDog

Many farmers in Austria take the marc (pomace...the leftovers from fermenting grapes for wine) and pile it in their barns. It will keep their livestock warm all winter. Then they plow it under in the spring to add organic material & nutrients to their soil. Sustainable use of a vineyard: some wine, warm cows, and rich garden beds for next year's crop.
If we keep throwing away valuable natural resources, the time will come that we will *depend* on chemicals!


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## Phantomfyre

Taking the compost-for-heat idea one step farther: it is known that low tunnels or a Remay-type blanket on plants inside a hoop house can add a few degrees of additional protection. Lots of people are doing that. But what if you build hot frames inside? Like cold frames, but dug out deeply and the soil replaced with at least 8" of manure to compost below a few inches of soil, warming the soil and the inside of the frame.

Also thinking that keeping chickens in a part of the greenhouse during winter could add heat, and also provide compost materials on site. (Could easily also be rabbits.) In early spring, chicks. If you're going to run a heat lamp anyway, might as well use that lost heat for something useful, right? And, to stay on topic (compost), chicks need their bedding cleaned and replaced often. Toss it in the bin - keeping a good carbon:nitrogen ratio, of course, so it heats.

My goal is not a warm greenhouse, but to see if I can keep things from freezing, even on cold, cloudy, snowy days. (Like today!) And it's just plain fun to putter with ideas and soil and compost in the dead of winter!


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## fishhead

maverickxxx said:


> I was wondering if anyone has looked into making anysort of digestor to capture methane from piles. Most of my compost comes from manure and then i mix at my shop. It would be nice to get extrme power and hot water from the gaint piles. Has anyone tried anything with running water through piles to get hot water like the jeanpain methods. I havent seen anyone thats actualy made it work 100%


I haven't had a chance to build my sawdust pile yet but we did dig into a sawdust pile at a small sawmill that was at least 20 years old. It got so hot it burned our hands and we had to stop digging. I think a large pile would provide heat for decades.


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## taylorlambert

Many a gallon of whiskey have been made in a sawdust pile back in the day to the present. I have a large pile at work individual loads that we use on the roads at the landfill for wet weather roads. Whats save after it gets wet we pile it up and use for a daily cover. It gets pretty hot. THeres a pile there thats been there a year and turned 2 times. Its a nice chocolate brown color. It smells a bit like alcohol from the break down. Im bringing a few lods of it home when the weather fairs a bit. Id like to make a water heater like this but I think it would need to be turned several times to re heat.


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## fishhead

The sawdust pile we dug into was never turned. It stayed where it landed after going through the blower at least 20 years before we dug into it.

There's another huge sawdust pile in town that still catches fire and it is at least pre-1970's.

I think it gets it's nitrogen from rainwater so it breaks down over a longer period of time.

If you got any sawmills in your area ask them if you can dig into the pile. Find the oldest stuff and see if it's still heating.


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## taylorlambert

No more saw mills around here except a large one that sends its waste to a burner. There was one old pile hhere by my neighbors that was 50 years aold it was rotted through. THe stuff at work was saturated then turned 1 maybe 2 times as it was being piled. I want to get a few loads of it before we have to cover with it. Its about 150 degrees about 8 inches past the surface. THe old dogs out there will dig in the top and lay in it in the morning.


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## maverickxxx

Well i hauled fifty yards of manure/ hay n woodchips in today ive been slackling on hauling weekly weve been getting snowstorms every couple of days so acess to my pile wasnt happing. I love my old backhoe it hasnt been started since sometime in december u der 3' of snow i got the jumper cables and a sniff of ether and roared to life. Iwish my other equip thats 20-30 years newer would start that easy. Its amazing dead of winter and piles will sart heating back up in a couple days. Has anyone bought one of those compost pile themometers and where did uget it.


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## DJ in WA

Regarding composting in the greenhouse.

This morning I was talking to my daughter who's studying horticulture at college. Said she was doing some research and ran across an article saying in China they discovered that composting in greenhouses increased CO2 in the air, and greatly increased plant growth. Assuming other nutrients are not limited, of course.


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## Trisha in WA

Cool DJ! Thanks for that info!


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## Phantomfyre

Found a GREAT article/study on heating with compost in a greenhouse. They pump the "exhaust" from the piles under the soil to heat the soil and use the soil as a biofilter to remove ammonia from the air and convert it into nitrogen that is usable by plants directly in the root zone. They also discuss CO2 output and utilization.
The Composting Greenhouse at the New Alchemy Institute: A Report on Two Years of Operation and Monitoring


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## Forerunner

For those reading this thread for the first time, I was perusing a bit, myself, and came across a few oddly disjointed posts that are the result of either deleted posts or members who have left for their own reasons and requested that all of their posting history be deleted. I don't suppose the meat of the discussion has been compromised, but if I was reading this for the first time, unawares, I'd sure have been scratching my head in confusion a time or two. 

As for heating a greenhouse with compost, I've done it on a small scale in what was basically a very large cold frame...... just a thousand gallon fuel tank laid in the ground about three feet, laying horizontally, the entire front of which was cut out and laid in with old windows facing to the south at about a 45 degree angle. Id dig it out every February or as soon as the frost allowed, and lay in horse manure and bedding three feet deep, with three or four inches of black garden dirt from the last batch laid in on top. We set seed trays in part of it, and started seeds directly in the soil on the other end. There was definitely a heating going on that likely gained us a month of growing season for those plants. Instead of cold framing in 28 degree weather, we were doing it in 20 degree weather, give or take, and experiencing a large degree of success.

I have since dreamed of a larger and permanent greenhouse, laid in with a heavy concrete foundation about six feet deep, with drain tile, 20 or 30 feet long by 12 or 14 feet wide. I have several tons of red clay brick....and the concrete forms....and I thought that a brick greenhouse with solid glass front would be _cool_. 
I planned a double foundation, about four feet apart, for the front, to facilitate a four by six by full length pit in which compost could be laid every late winter. With a mass like that, it could likely be laid in a couple months sooner than that, and still produce plenty of heat. I figured on a row of black plastic barrels in the back to absorb and hold solar heat to supplement the compost on colder nights, and even install a small wood stove for when life gets serious.
The entire affair would be sunk in the ground to allow, say, a foot of foundation to show in the front, and glass from there up. A traditional lean-to roof could be installed for the remainder, simplifying construction and making for a far more durable structure.
Brick for the back and both ends...... sliding glass door panels for the front.
With vinyl or aluminum framed panels, such, and concrete foundation, there would be little opportunity for deterioration for quite some time.
The only issue would be moisture against the rafters and sheeting.....which could be dealt with by selecting a moisture and rot resistant wood for all interior construction.
Cypress, cedar, osage, locust.....cured out and painted with linseed oil or some equivalent ?

Oh, for more energy, these days.


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## maverickxxx

Im wanting to put a green house up and also make a pit for compost heat. Reading your post gave me a new idea to combine both. But basicly im thinking a pit that is all lined with concrete prolly 8' down the center maybe 6' deep i can fill with compost once or twice a year with loader or skid steer. Can run piping in it for radiant heat for my other buildings and heat from pile should be more than enough to heat greenhouse. You could also have a sump in bottom to pump out water from compost for plants in green house.


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## maverickxxx

Doing that would also allow for more accurate testing and experimentation. If this stuff is getting off topic let me know i think it fits in with the title bringing compost to the extremes. We have a local composting facilty thats run by the county they make compost in thirty days. They blow air in piles to cool and heat. They use wood chips and biosoilds from sewer treatmant plants. Those piles cook at 150 degrees for thirty days straight.


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## Forerunner

There would have to be a really off-the-wall post about the preferred hair-color of a vintage Barbie&#8482; doll, etc. before I'd cry foul for thread drift.
Do carry on with your good, on-point information.


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## Freya

Maybe you need to hold a greenhouse "raising" this summer and have a group of people get it done for you! :thumb:


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## JohnP

Well so much for me getting anything done today. I read a few pages last night and went back and started over and read all 27 pages today although I skimmed through a few pages as they seemed to have no benefit.

Butanyways, Quite inspirational in many ways. The word of the day when writing the factor is "unctuous". How ironically fitting. (I had to look it up)

We're moving to the Mid-West in 6-8 weeks to move onto our new homestead. Off grid and undeveloped. 

We've only got 4 acres, mostly wooded and we don't want to cut it all down plus we need space for the house and animals so the maximum growing area will be 1-2 acres. We're starting out with raised beds but I would like an area for some things that lend themselves well to row crops like corn or field crops like grain. Once we get there and survey the land a little better we'll make the determination on where that row/field crop area will be and that will be my compost area. 

We'll be using a humanure toilet and making compost asap for next year but I'll probably keep the humanure pile for the following year and just start a separate pile for growing next year since I'm not an experienced composter. 
I won't be doing the extreme composting right away due to lack of equipment but that equipment was already on my wish list so it _will_ happen someday. 

I already know the area we're moving to and I'm quite sure I can get as much of anything that I'll need for our little homestead. In my case, since I'm a newbie and DW is squeemish, we'll be doing 2 different systems/pile(s). I won't be seeking out any carcasses but I will definitely utilize the occasional expired chicken in the same pile(s) as the humanure along with other household waste. That will be small and well tended and modeled after Joseph Jenkin's double pile system. 

Then we'll have the big piles like Forerunner minus the cows and horses that will be used for the veggies and the humanure ones will be used for fruit trees and landscape plants/trees. 

What this thread has done for me is make me realize I can turn this 4 acres into a nice little paradise a whole lot quicker than what I was thinking considering the heavy, rock filled clay soil that is the Ozarks. 

I've read that one thing that helps heavy clay soils is coarse sand. I'm wondering if that wouldn't help stretch the compost as well. 1/2 compost, 1/4 sand, 1/4 clay as a starter and then nothing but compost added in the following years? Just thinking for fast tracking things in my case and maybe helping those with heavy soil and limited access to organic material.

The other thing this thread has done for me is remind me to take pictures constantly. Not only does it make these threads more interesting but I'm half thinking about flipping our little homestead at some point to start a larger one. The pics would be good documentation. I was already considering flipping it as I really want something bigger but this is all we can afford. Making really big piles is just one more reason. All depends on how the world goes.


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## maverickxxx

If you have a clay soil sand will defnitly help. Clay is the smallest of dirt particles thats why it packs so dense and sand is the largest. Also if u canget silt as well.i would use a third of each get the dirt really workable first and then add compost it will mix more evenly. Ialso add sand to my compost piles to help keep air space and keeps it from clumping as much i screen it so it helps alot.if you dont have a machine how are you going to mix dirt togther a rottatiller or something? If you are i would spread sand silt on top of area and till it in then add compost and till agin.


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## Forerunner

Unctuous......*chuckle*........ I do love a fellow linguist.

I wouldn't mix sand of clay with my composts, though swamp goo (silt?) may contain some beneficial nutrients and bacteria. Sand could be applied directly in the case of loosening clay. 
If I were starting out, and short on equipment, my initial wish list would include the largest loader tractor I could afford, a heavy disc--narrow enough that my tractor could handle with ease, a ripper of some sort with 18 or so inch shanks-but no more shanks than the tractor could pull sustainably, and a harrow to level things up.

I have found deep ripping to be extremely advantageous in clay, both for facilitating drainage and for stirring/mixing organics deeper into heavy mineral soil (clay).
The deep ripping disc (heavy, large diameter disc blades in a narrow frame) does a fantastic job of mixing/blending the upper six to eight inches--perfect for incorporating that two-three inch heavy spread of finished compost, as well as chewing up the late season field trash. The harrow, especially if you have an eye for aesthetics, and more especially if you've never had the pleasure of using one, is God's gift to the tender of soil and builder of Eden/Paradise on earth. There's not much as rewarding as the black sheen of a freshly worked piece of heavily composted ground, with the anticipation of the lush green to come.

John, I'm only 60 miles east of the Mississippi, just off route 9.
I hope we'll have opportunity to meet.


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## maverickxxx

Well im going to work on trailer brakes on the dumptrailer this weekend. We gotta a warm spell to melt some snow and ice then its going to freeze back up so im going to take advange of this before the construction season starts. I found out that everyone gets spring fever the same time my season starts and its way to busy. I got my track skidsteer running good now. I learned something new alge can grow in fuel tank. I got three horse stables with a winters worth of manure straw and woodchips thats been cooking all winter. Im sure with the warm spell others are going to be getting the itch. I talked with my landlord about buying my shop witch is just a small building that i cant even pull a truckinto to work on and they came up with an astronical number so greenhouse is on hold now im still thinking i might be able to do something with mafia blocks. I dont wanna build anything permant now.


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## JohnP

Forerunner said:


> Unctuous......*chuckle*........ I do love a fellow linguist.
> 
> I wouldn't mix sand of clay with my composts, though swamp goo (silt?) may contain some beneficial nutrients and bacteria. Sand could be applied directly in the case of loosening clay.
> If I were starting out, and short on equipment, my initial wish list would include the largest loader tractor I could afford, a heavy disc--narrow enough that my tractor could handle with ease, a ripper of some sort with 18 or so inch shanks-but no more shanks than the tractor could pull sustainably, and a harrow to level things up.
> 
> I have found deep ripping to be extremely advantageous in clay, both for facilitating drainage and for stirring/mixing organics deeper into heavy mineral soil (clay).
> The deep ripping disc (heavy, large diameter disc blades in a narrow frame) does a fantastic job of mixing/blending the upper six to eight inches--perfect for incorporating that two-three inch heavy spread of finished compost, as well as chewing up the late season field trash. The harrow, especially if you have an eye for aesthetics, and more especially if you've never had the pleasure of using one, is God's gift to the tender of soil and builder of Eden/Paradise on earth. There's not much as rewarding as the black sheen of a freshly worked piece of heavily composted ground, with the anticipation of the lush green to come.
> 
> John, I'm only 60 miles west of the Mississippi, just off route 9.
> I hope we'll have opportunity to meet.


For those that don't have an old dictionary. 
Unctuous: Rich in organic matter and easily workable as soil
That's one meaning. Plastic claylike is another.

Yeah, it's gonna be a while before I can afford all that. That's why I'll be starting with/doing mostly raised beds so we can work them by hand. 
The going to get organic material will have to be done by hand for now although with the manure, there's a pretty good chance of getting loaded. The sawdust is easy to load by hand. What I do have is a couple of old garden tractors with a few attachments and more available including 12" rear single tine, disc harrow. rake harrow and a seed planter. I have my doubts as to whether it would pull that tine through unbroken clay but maybe a few inches at a time. I've got a dual wheel setup for the back but still need ag tires and to make some wheel weights. I know it will tear up sod with the corner of the rear grader blade. I also have plans/specs for building a loader for it with 6' lift. I should be able to make 7-8' piles. I'll just have to zoom in when I take pics so they look bigger. Also got belly mowers and front dozer blade/snow plow. One's going to stay as a mower and the other will be built up for pulling/pushing/lifting. If I have to I can hire someone to come in and rip it up for me the first time.

Mini mechanized extreme composting? 

Once I get that loader built I can set my trailer up so I can drive the tractor right up sideways on the front and have a bed, preferably dump, behind that. Should be able to drive right in most stalls too.


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## Forerunner

Thank you, John, for correcting my geography. 

I do be 60 miles EAST of the ole Miss.


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## JohnP

I thought it was a brain teaser. I found rt 9 and was scratching my head. I went to wiki and found out that the Mississippi used to run where the Illinois now runs. So you're West of the Ol' mis and East of the new Ol' mis.
I had to make it work somehow. Just the way I am.


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## Forerunner

Well then, by thunder, I _am_ west of the Mississippi. 
Now if I could just avoid having to cross that bridge 60 miles west of me when I visit Missouri or Iowa.


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## maverickxxx

the pile ive been building all winter and no the little dog didnt contribute much


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## maverickxxx

yea apparently that didnt work so if some one can tell me how to post pics that would be awsome. i dont have url i guess so if there is another way?


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## Forerunner

I post my pics to photobucket, and then post the link here.


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## maverickxxx

[/IMG]


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## maverickxxx

[/IMG







[/IMG]heres a couple more that pile will prolly double over next month. with everone wanting cleanup from the winter.after snow melts ill get a couple of the other ones they are all under snow that ones melts all its own snow.


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## Forerunner

See there..... Now that's what _I'm_ talkin' about.


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## maverickxxx

Thanx for telling me how to post pics. Over next couple weeks im going to be moveing all my piles. The old needs to be mixed with my dirt for topsoil. Then the new pile gets stacked in that spot. Then another new pile in that spot. I also got a fifteen year old of about a thousand yards i gotta bring in. Ill have a little more time for hauling this year my daughter just turned one in january so i can bring her to the stables and farms now to see the animals and get manure. Ill be posting alot more in coming weeks. Im trying to take advantge of the frozen ground before frost melts.


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## Forerunner

I hear yuh in re frozen vs. muddy snot.

The sale barn is overwhelmed right now due to the big snow we had, the doubling and tripling of their business in the last year, and the fact that I can't even get in to dump the material on any of my piles right now. I don't remember ever seeing the mud this bad.


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## Trisha in WA

maverick those are BEAUTIFUL piles. And what I wouldn't give for a pile that was 15 years old!!!! NICE! I am trying to establish a new garden area and that would just totally make my day!


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## maverickxxx

Yea that 15yr pile is nice its a little bit of a pain to get to the horses are very curious and it is only accsesble in perfect conditions. On the positive side i just need to screen it and its ready to go. I got my track skid steer this year to move it which will be alot better and faster.


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## maverickxxx

heres a pic of the old pile in between the tarped piles







[/IMG]thats the front of pile ill get one of the side when snow melts


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## mainegirl

Forerunner! you inspire me...i remember my parents having a compost pile that would steam in the winter. we wrapped new potatoes in foil and put them deep in the pile....best baked potatoes I have ever had. (they were probably volunteer plants from kitchen scraps.) thought my parents were so corny....just built a house next to them on 25 acres and can't wait to smell that smell again.....thanks for the pics. glad to hear that my dad isn't the only one who builds the biggest compost pile, just cuz he can...


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## 10kids

We have a friend who has recently found employment with the local REA. He was here yesterday and mentioned that next month they will start trimming trees and their chipper will be in the vicinity. I asked where they dump and he said they are always looking for a place. They will not be looking further than my place this year! I am posting as a reminder to folks, this is the time of year to contact the electric and/or cable linemen.


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## Cascade Failure

I hate this thread right now.

6+ feet of snow so far and spring is no where in sight.


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## maverickxxx

well more snow and rain tommrow. agin on monday and tuesday but its supposed to be warm so who knows there will either be more snow or less. im ready to start my year. im all caught up with manure from the stables and am going to start working at the one of the other places but just waiting on weather agin. i guess ill just keep practicing stacking snow. i guess ill post some pics of extreme snowpiles!


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## mainegirl

MullersLaneFarm said:


> Having seen Forerunner's compost piles and gardens up close and personal back in the summer of 2005, I'm still in awe 5 years later. It put a whole other meaning to the concept of composting.
> 
> If anyone has a chance to go to Forerunner's place, go for it. The pictures just don't do it justice. The lush gardens, the odor free piles are simply amazing.


it would seem like a pilgrimage of sorts, yes?.  if it is a wonderful as it sounds....we could lie prostrate and pay homage and feel small and humble in the great shadow of The Pile....Sound good to me....(GOSH i wish spring would hurry up and get here.....another 14 inches predicted tonight)


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## paintboy

on our pilgrimage do we need to kneel and pray every other step or carry 100 lbs of wood chips on our back? Sacrifices need to be made


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## mudburn

I can personally attest to the wonders of making the pilgrimage to the Mecca of extreme composting! Not only are Forerunner's compost piles things of rare beauty and a testimony to his foresight and convictions, Forerunner and his family are wonderful hosts. I'm anxiously looking forward to visiting again.

It is still inspiring to see others' composting endeavors and exploits in this thread. My efforts have been limited this winter, having lost my best supplier when the sale barn went out of business in November. My cows are contributing fabulous fertility to the straw and saw dust in the barn. The bedding pack is growing deeper every day. I heartily recommend saw dust as a bedding material which for me is much cheaper than straw. If I load it, I can have it from a local sawmill. It takes less than 15 minutes to shovel about 3,000 pounds of it into my truck (the little truck).

I'm currently working on the old Bobcat I bought last spring. The starter needs rebuilt, but I have to pull the engine to get to it. So, I'm taking it apart. This will give me opportunity to clean the machine, rewire everything, and give it a new coat of paint. I'm planning on using it to collect composting material from people in this area who don't view manure as a resource. I might be able to use it to load out some of the really OLD sawdust from the local mill. I don't know if I can use it to load my big truck, yet, but I'll find out soon.

I'll be spreading a thick layer compost on my gardens and working it in for the first time this year. Some of my piles will wait at least another 8 or 9 months before being incorporated. As I contemplate spreading it, I realize that I do not have nearly enough.

mudburn


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## Forerunner

Good point, Paintboy...... sacrifices do need be made.

Mainegirl, bowing to the piles seems a bit sacriligious, but they do like when we hold hands and dance around them in the summer rain. 
The endeavor is a pilgrimage. Started quite humbly and has grown to proportions I'd certainly not foreseen.

Mudburn, I too am looking forward to that visit. Some fellow extreme earthenness would be refreshing. I wish I could share the bounty from my sale barn with you.
I'm going to have upwards of seventy five loads hauled for the year come the first of March. It's been day and night trying to keep up and trying to work while it's frozen just so I can get in to dump. I've been up since three this a.m., hauling, as it's frozen now. I've got three trips yet and the pit will be clean again. :bouncy:

*staggers off to haul another round*


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## misplaced

fr was up at 3:30 this morning hauling manure :smack And he is on round 3 right now.

Its a wonderful thing... Lily and I have the house all to ourselves today:happy:


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## mainegirl

paintboy said:


> on our pilgrimage do we need to kneel and pray every other step or carry 100 lbs of wood chips on our back? Sacrifices need to be made


perhaps....perhaps.....The Compost Gods would surely smile upon us then...what would be a proper sacrifice for the Mecca? I like the wood chip idea.......


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## mainegirl

Forerunner said:


> Good point, Paintboy...... sacrifices do need be made.
> 
> Mainegirl, bowing to the piles seems a bit sacriligious, but they do like when we hold hands and dance around them in the summer rain.
> The endeavor is a pilgrimage. Started quite humbly and has grown to proportions I'd certainly not foreseen.
> 
> Mudburn, I too am looking forward to that visit. Some fellow extreme earthenness would be refreshing. I wish I could share the bounty from my sale barn with you.
> I'm going to have upwards of seventy five loads hauled for the year come the first of March. It's been day and night trying to keep up and trying to work while it's frozen just so I can get in to dump. I've been up since three this a.m., hauling, as it's frozen now. I've got three trips yet and the pit will be clean again. :bouncy:
> 
> *staggers off to haul another round*


The heathen side of me apologizes for any offensive sacriligious suggestions. Dancing in the rain it is then! Some extreme earthenness would be energizing, this time of year.....i want to sleep under the stars and eat the bounty of the harvest until i am full and quiet.....sigh.....
*staggers off to shovel snow*


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## maverickxxx

well my composting is on back burner agin seems almost like im being worked aganist this week. 16" of snow yesterday 7" tommrow rain sleet and snow monday my dtruck broke yesterday i think headgasket the imfmous international 6.0 liter diesel its still underwarranty. backhoe blew line pushing snow yesterday night. loader has been down. i guess its gonna be a little while before i can start hauling agin. i guess i am really going have to start posting extreme snow piles. im going to have to get loader going now this just way to much snow now. well by the time i get everything dugout my truck will be fixed and spring will be here. hopefully its another year like lastyear and start a month early agin


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## dancingfatcat

Last week, while turning the compost pile for the last time before using it in the spring, we found 3 baby bunnies. All nestled and warm in the rich darkness


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## mainegirl

FatCat...what did you do? i almost cried when i read this.....


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## MOgal

Since rabbits do a lot of damage to our fruit trees, small fruits and garden, I doubt those bunnies would have stayed in the compost all snuggly and warm. Here, kitty, kitty, kitty. Do the same thing to pinky mice we find in the barn.


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## mainegirl

MOgal....GASP! (eyes tearing up) reallly? The mice, too? gee....


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## Forerunner

Ah, Mainegirl, our dear and tender-hearted compost enthusiast...... 

Rabbits and mice are the bane of the homesteader. It truly is, or, certainly can be, a cold, hard world out there.


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## MOgal

I'm sorry, Mainegirl. I truly didn't mean to upset you. When we've disturbed a nests of mice and sometimes rats, it's when we were moving the bales to either feed them or to take them to the garden as mulch. I doubted the mother rodent would find the babies after we'd removed the surroundings and thought it more humane to dispatch them quickly. 

The rabbits are so common that they have girdled a number of newly planted fruit trees and killed them. I've noticed several blueberry bushes and grape vines I planted last spring that had been nipped. Last year, we didn't get one single green bean because they'd eat the stems and leaves as soon as any developed. We depend on our garden and just can't allow them to destroy our food sources.


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## mainegirl

Forerunner, MOgal....(sniffle) i understand.....i do.....i will try to think pragmatically and make peace with the harsh reality that is Homesteading.....

it's just that wee little mice and fluffy rabbits are not a problem here so i have no experience with that sort of necessity....Our bane is 150 lb. deer (eyes narrow, lips pressed together at the thought) who eat EVERY green shoot as soon as it emerges....and i've never had to figure out a good way to "dispatch of them quickly".........thank you for the dose of reality...keeps me grounded.....*off to shovel more snow from the roof*


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## maverickxxx

seems like the compost gods are working aginst me. my truck has broke down twice in last 30 days starter went in loader i blew a transmission seal on back hoe and today i broke a cable for the bucket on my skid steer and my excavtor is 60 miles away right now. im ready for winter to be over.


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## Forerunner

Don't feel bad. I lost count somewhere around 100,000 invested over the last 15 years in my soil-building effort.
I don't regret a dime of it.....

Patience and perseverance must be highly esteemed virtues in the next realm, for all the opportunity we get to exercise and perfect them, here.


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## maverickxxx

Thats an intersting perspective i havnt heard that before. Those are the words of encourge i was looking for and needed. I have found lately more people online that are more people out their that have same hopes dreams ideas also insight. I try not to let things like that get me down. The other day i found a website that sells alot of attachments and things i have dremt up and havent got around to makeing yet the big one was a universal skidsteer plate that mounts on the end of your miniexcavtor to run skid steer attachments or tractor. It was very inspiring as well as looking at monster piles of compost. Looking through the differnt threads has also giving me some other ideas i have been wanting to plant some fruit trees in spring but not buying my shop i didnt want to plant them and not be able to take them and now im going to plant them in some old loader tires i also have acsess to the gaint tires. Well i guess this is getting of subject so i guess ill continue this in gardening forum.


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## VaFarmer

Yep, reading the site got me started again. Stopped and talked with tree crew trimming and there bringing loads of chopped tree trimings, double dump truck load per day for next week and may be more. Will go from small garden compost bile to humungis rotting wood pile all in 1 week!:run: Only problem is with the wet weather can't get the trucks into a low area I wanted to stack it in. Dumping on high spot in front hay field instead. Hopefully it will rot quickly and can use it in a couple of yrs. :clap: 



10kids said:


> We have a friend who has recently found employment with the local REA. He was here yesterday and mentioned that next month they will start trimming trees and their chipper will be in the vicinity. I asked where they dump and he said they are always looking for a place. They will not be looking further than my place this year! I am posting as a reminder to folks, this is the time of year to contact the electric and/or cable linemen.


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## Cascade Failure

Forerunner said:


> Don't feel bad. I lost count somewhere around 100,000 invested over the last 15 years in my soil-building effort.
> I don't regret a dime of it.....
> 
> Patience and perseverance must be highly esteemed virtues in the next realm, for all the opportunity we get to exercise and perfect them, here.


Yup. If we based our successes on the almighty dollar we would all be petro-chem farmers. With the exception of fighting ground moles, I have haven't used a fertilizer, pesticide or herbicide in YEARS.

Cost effective does not equal good stewardship.


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## dancingfatcat

I hate to say it but one of the tiny (maybe a week old) bunnies was on the pitch fork my son was using, of course he started freaking out, as it was screeching so I had to put it out of its misery. We put the other two back when we were done (thou I would have done away with them) but my sons wouldn't let me. They were both dead the next day, sorry, I know they are cute but the wreck havoc on my garden  Yes, they too, went into the compost pile. Sad but true.


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## ryanthomas

If mainegirl isn't already gone for good, that might seal the deal.


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## dancingfatcat

Sorry, not trying to detour anyone, just stating the facts. One thing I found out with trying to be an organic gardener and trying not to make an impact on the environment is that JUST by being there in the garden I upset the natural flow. Stepping on ants, moving earth and building compost changes the landscape. I just hope I am changing it for the better, thou I do hate that some things may die and not even purposely.


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## Duggo

Noob question, are worms smart enought to get out of Dodge when a compost pile gets hot, or do they become crispy compost?


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## ryanthomas

They're smart enough. You'll often find them around the edges when it's hot, and then they move in while it's cooling. A few do get fried, though.


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## Forerunner

What amazes me is their extensive activity just six to twelve inches into the pile in the dead of winter. I've given up moving working piles much at all during the freeze, for the thousands of worms that come pouring out only to freeze to death.
It would be a real effort to kick up a pile fast enough to cook a worm.
Of course, what with the dumbing down and lower education standards, these days....


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## ryanthomas

All my worms are homeschooled.


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## Forerunner

Mine, too.  

They love recess. :bouncy:


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## Duggo

Forerunner said:


> I've given up moving working piles much at all during the freeze, for the thousands of worms that come pouring out only to freeze to death...


I bet it would be a real hoot to let chickens loose on a pile, then turn up a bunch of worms. A worm smorgasbord if you will.


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## mainegirl

duggo....i giggled to my self when i read your post.....word would get out in the coop and all of the girls would come running.....you'd have to fight them off with the pitchfork just to turn the pile.....be like a Justin Beiber concert gone bad.....


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## ryanthomas

Welcome back, mainegirl.


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## mainegirl

thank you......


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## MOgal

Duggo, before we started getting so much snow, I put piles of compost in the garden in rows, thinking I'd smooth them out into raised beds later. I've been letting the chickens out and they LOVE those rows. Unfortunately, in looking for the worms, they smoothed the rows too much but that's what you get with such cheap labor. 

Homeschooled worms. How funny. And very sad because as a retired teacher, I know Forerunner's observation about dumbing down is right on the mark. 

Hi, mainegirl. Hope you are still speaking to me.


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## mainegirl

oh MOgal...of course i am still speaking to you.....(i did tear up at the image of the screaming bunny on the pitch fork).....wimpy, i know..... 

Home schooled worms...hee hee....cheap chicken labor.....the snow is so deep that on my way to check out my compost i went right to my...um....well....anyway...the snow is deep.....can't wait for cheap labor and homeschooled worms....

ohhhhh...don't say dumbing down...as a current special ed teacher that hurts my feelings....it's what the majority of the American people seem to want....not too hard, don't push so much, don't make my kid feel bad....everyone gets a gold star.....

i like this thread......i will lurk here often....


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## maverickxxx

well most of my equipment is back up just got the new tranny for dtruck in skid steer is fixed backhoe just gotta get new hose on monday. just waiting on starter for loader and more snow to melt and mud to dry some.


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## ryanthomas

Just went out and checked on the pile I plan to spread soon...it's frozen. It's an old pile, so I guess it didn't have enough heat to carry it through the winter. I turned it a little to expose the insides to air and hopefully thaw it out a little faster. Hoping this won't hurt it.


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## katy

ryanthomas said:


> All my worms are homeschooled.


This statement reminds me of a time, when visiting Country Cousins, one of them offered to teach me a new "dance step", I have no idea how long it took me to realize his "Barnyard Step" was actually just scraping the chicken poo and mud from one's shoes. A very good laugh for all that were present. Of course he did have an absolute disdain for real city folk.

Pray for the "City Folk", edumacated worms. What a hoot.


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## MNBobcat

Forerunner,

Can I ask what brand/model of chipper you have? Does it self-feed or do you have to really work to get the brush through it?

I need to start building my soil and have access to a ton of brush. I'm planning on composting the brush after its been chipped.


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## Forerunner

I have a large Valby, hydraulic-fed, Finland-made.
Those Fins, Nordics, Laps and Scandinavians are a woodsy lot, and they do quality like the Germans.
I really like the Valby because I can turn down the feed, sharpen the blades to razors and dang near make sawdust out of an 11 inch log. Just watching those bushels of very fine wood chips (the Valby has an optional screen that assists in achieving that very fine grade of chip) pile up in the wagon as one large branch disappears into the chipper throat makes me giddy. :bouncy:

That said, for much less money and a little less horsepower, the Canadian-made Wallensteins are excellent. I recommend the six inch over the four, with self feed.
When those Wallenstein blades are sharp, they make for an extremely aggressive self-feeder.
The Wallenstein makes a little bigger chip, though, which will break down slower, absorb nitrogen slower.....and therefore make great mulch and paths in the garden.
Those coarser chips can certainly be used to bed down livestock and will break down sufficiently in a year or so in a hot pile.


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## am1too

It looks like a very dry year here after a very wet year. I have access to pre ground and mixed yard waste material. How large a pile would I need to not have to water it? Or do you Forerunner. Should I plan on turning it. I do have brush out the wazu.


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## Forerunner

If you've got a quantity of yard waste that already has moisture evident, pile it high and deep and forget about it. I wouldn't turn it, either. Just let it rot for a year or so.


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> If you've got a quantity of yard waste that already has moisture evident, pile it high and deep and forget about it. I wouldn't turn it, either. Just let it rot for a year or so.


thanks


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## maverickxxx

]http:/







[/IMG] i run into to these everyonce in awhile but i dont have anywhere for them to dump them close. and today they are teasing makeing me follow them


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## mainegirl

Forerunner, i need to get a pile cooking again after the very long, snowy winter...it seems to have stopped....any suggestions? i want this thing cooking...need it for spring...
couple general questions, since you have a PhD., xyz in composting.... 

Do you just add what you want to your piles or do you have a certain layering system?
Do you ever test your piles for ph or anything? 
Do you have different piles for different gardening needs...acidic soil, etc. 
I have a few other questions, but i will await your answer as those questions may be answered for me.


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## mudburn

We've had a few warm days which has allowed things to dry out enough to work some fields a bit. So, I had the opportunity to spread some of the compost from my piles for the first time. Actually, I really only spread from one pile, not counting the one from cleaning out the barn last year.

I had to fix my manure spreader -- did that yesterday. Then, it broke again on the second load today. I dislike shoveling stuff out of that contraption -- it's supposed to empty itself. Got it fixed, though, and it worked fine this afternoon.

I spread several tons on our main garden area and then ripped it in with a field cultivator I borrowed from a friend. It would bury itself to the frame, but then my tractor couldn't pull it. So, I settled for about 12 inches deep. The soil is mainly clay on the upper side (to the right in the first two photos).




























I've got more to spread on some other areas this week if it doesn't rain.

During the last few days, I've used quite a bit of compost when planting some fruit and nut trees. I also dug two trenches which I filled with compost and set 50 asparagus crowns in.

Hey, Forerunner, did you get a 4020?

mudburn


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## Forerunner

mainegirl said:


> Forerunner, i need to get a pile cooking again after the very long, snowy winter...it seems to have stopped....any suggestions? i want this thing cooking...need it for spring...
> couple general questions, since you have a PhD., xyz in composting....
> 
> Do you just add what you want to your piles or do you have a certain layering system?
> Do you ever test your piles for ph or anything?
> Do you have different piles for different gardening needs...acidic soil, etc.
> I have a few other questions, but i will await your answer as those questions may be answered for me.


I don't layer in any particular manner, but I do keep somewhat of a running balance in my head as to when to go after more nitrogen, or more carbon....more moist material or more dry.
I don't test for anything on a professional level. I more or less use the Force.
I don't generally build different composition piles for different gardens, but I might be careful not to plant potatoes where I know I have a nitrogen excess.....nor corn where I might be a bit strong on waste wood products...

Mudburn..... no 4020.... just a shiny new 3020. I dearly love that size tractor.
Don't get me started talking on pitchforking the contents out of a manure spreader.
I try to suppress those lingering nightmares.


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## ca2devri

I don't post on this thread much, but love keeping up with it. I must share this here though as I'm getting weird looks from family and friends when I show my excitement over the recent news:

I finally talked to the new owners of a livestock auction about 3 miles down the road. I asked what they're going to do with the constantly growing pile of manure and old hay. He said how much would I pay for it. Good thing I paused (I WOULD pay for it) because I then realized he was kidding. He said they'd be happy to give it to me... in fact he says that he has a dump truck and they'll bring it over when the ground dries a bit!!! I have to pinch myself!

In other news, I'm planning on selling a bunch of old haying equipment I don't use and I'm hoping to use the proceeds to finally get the loader I bought married to the tractor I own (I expect it will cost me $500-$1000 in metal work modifications). Then I will be set!

Chris


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## Trisha in WA

Chris, that is so exciting!!! How great of a deal is that? THEY are going to haul it for you! Good job!


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## mainegirl

ca2devri said:


> I don't post on this thread much, but love keeping up with it. I must share this here though as I'm getting weird looks from family and friends when I show my excitement over the recent news:
> 
> I finally talked to the new owners of a livestock auction about 3 miles down the road. I asked what they're going to do with the constantly growing pile of manure and old hay. He said how much would I pay for it. Good thing I paused (I WOULD pay for it) because I then realized he was kidding. He said they'd be happy to give it to me... in fact he says that he has a dump truck and they'll bring it over when the ground dries a bit!!! I have to pinch myself!
> 
> In other news, I'm planning on selling a bunch of old haying equipment I don't use and I'm hoping to use the proceeds to finally get the loader I bought married to the tractor I own (I expect it will cost me $500-$1000 in metal work modifications). Then I will be set!
> 
> Chris


i could not find a jealousy smiley or it would be here----> good for you.....
F.runner....i sense the Force is strong with you.......i will take your advice and build...i think i will get some chicken poo from the closest place and turn that into the pile. the snow is so deep here, i can't even see my raised beds yet.....


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## Forerunner

maverickxxx said:


> ]http:/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG] i run into to these everyonce in awhile but i dont have anywhere for them to dump them close. and today they are teasing makeing me follow them


Looks like you've got enough carbon on your dashboard to balance an impressive quantity of nitrogen.....


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## sticky_burr

lol how you need to get a chipper/trim service like above to drop off free and your be in gold.. erm black soild


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## maverickxxx

Yea better on my dash on side of road ive never got a littering ticket.


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## Ken Scharabok

Haven't read all to day. My method: I don't garden, but has a BIL who is experimenting with Square Foot Gardening. Making compost is his thing now.

I get 200 pound cattle molases lick tubs about five times a year. I'll keep one by the back door so anything rot-able which comes out of the kitchen, inlcuding paper towels and tisses, go into it. When I clean pots buy boiling water in than and scraping or juices left over after cook go on it. When I don't hear any cars on the road, I'm likely to add some good old human urine. Then I can I layer it with fresh cow manure (which I have loads of) and fresh grass clippings or leaves. I can produce about a tub fill about every 2-3 months.


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## Forerunner

Good of you to come out of the closet, Ken.

I've always been a mass producer, but I do get a kick out of my small barrel operations when I do get one cooking. 
...... and of course it's gratifying to sneak in that occasional bit of man urea when there's no traffic.


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## mudburn

Forerunner said:


> ..... and of course it's gratifying to sneak in that occasional bit of man urea when there's no traffic.


I have the distinct impression that you find it gratifying regardless of the traffic situation. . . :teehee:


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## mainegirl

FR....KEN.....you pee in your compost? ummmm...is that your secret? Scientifically/chemically speaking.....what does that add to the mix..besides extreme satisfaction...which, while it cannot be quantified, is by far the most important ingredient...


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## mudburn

Mainegirl,

Pee in compost adds nitrogen and other good things.

If you haven't already, you need to read Forerunner's post on this topic from page 1 of this thread: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showpost.php?p=4295446&postcount=28

It is classic!


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## mainegirl

oh....nitrogen....makes sense....i'll have to plan my approach a little more carefully than FR and KEN (and apparently you) do..... i will check out said thread....maybe that's what i need to get my winter pile moving.......thanks!


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## mainegirl

OMG...i read that thread earlier and had NO IDEA what the man was talking about! It is all so clear to me now........haha.....I will...um...make plans to commune with my pile soon. Have to do it when the rest of the family is busy.....don't want too many questions...


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## Forerunner

mudburn said:


> Mainegirl,
> 
> Pee in compost adds nitrogen and other good things.
> 
> If you haven't already, you need to read Forerunner's post on this topic from page 1 of this thread: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showpost.php?p=4295446&postcount=28
> 
> It is classic!


My sentiments, exactly.

Didn't you read the whole thread, already ?:indif:

Chicks, anyhow........ :bored:


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## mainegirl

chicks? you must mean chickens.....i KNOW you don't mean me.....FR, yes i read the whole thread just wasn't used to Forerunner-ese at that point and could not figure out what "communing with the pile" meant.....had strange ideas but was not going to ask......


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## Forerunner

It's always best not to ask.........especially in this thread. :thumb:


Forerunner-ese ? :indif:


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## mainegirl

Forerunner-ese.....your ability to express with the English language is almost poetic.....took me a while to understand how deeply you composted, hence my wonderment to what "communing with the pile in the night" meant.......It is a compliment.....I only wish i was as well spoken.....It is a lost craft...even when one speaks of humble compost.....


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## Forerunner

I guess I figured no one could ever read my "communing" post and ever after be in the least uncertain of the true measure of "Forerunner-ese".

Perhaps you are the one to be commended, for maintaining any degree of blissful naivete/innocence, even after such an unabashed attack on your sensibilities as that........ :thumb:


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## Forerunner

I just spread last summer/fall's monster pile a couple weeks ago.
Yesterday and today I disced it in then harrowed it to bring up the bones and other odds and ends.
My trash pickers have been over it several times and even planted several hundred yellow onion sets down the southern length of it.

I see clearly now, after the fact, that I should have had my choreographer/photographer out there that I might have shared here.....
Otherwise, this thread is rapidly deteriorating to barroom humor.......:run:


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## mainegirl

FR, I will take that as a compliment (although i am less naive than you might think) little daft with regards to heavy/extreme organic gardening..remember, i cried about the rabbits and mice......I usually read this thread after work and a glass or two of wine.....clouds the senses in a not unpleasant way. I cannot wait to fire up my compost pile!
.....


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## mainegirl

serious compost question.....how do you compost the critters? do you add lime? i always thought it was a no no to put meat into the pile......


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## Forerunner

You read this thread while _intoxicated_ ?!!!

What a trip _that_ must be. :bow:


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## mainegirl

it aint like smoking rain water, but it takes the edge off nicely.......


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## Forerunner

Oh..... now we're going to be soberly and inquisitive again.....
Bother, anyhow. I was just about to grab a half pint of Jack D. :sob:

NEVER add lime to a compost pile. Lime reacts with nitrogen in such a way as to drive it out of the pile and into the atmosphere.
Same taboo goes for wood ashes.
(you should have gleaned that elsewhere in the thread :nono: )

Sawdust is the miracle that makes animal decomposition happen (faster  ).
The near pure carbon of sawdust feeds the microbes that enjoy the high nitrogen dessert of a rotting carcass.
It is a no-no to put meat into the pile...... if yer a challenged greenhorn.:heh:


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## mainegirl

well...i didn't want to be accused of hijacking....I had to ask a pertinent question or risk banishment.....

a bottle of JaCK?! (lets out a long slow whistle) you got me there....

I told you i read thread with one or two under my belt....i am doing my best...there is so much to learn here. I will not take notes....too nubish.......i will stick with vegetable matter, green matter, and brown matter.......


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## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> My trash pickers have been over it several times and even planted several hundred yellow onion sets down the southern length of it.


FR,
'Kay, you have your onions sets down, that means mine can go in next week.

I wish I still had the 'work pool' that you have so I could get my paltry gardens disked up and planted. Usualy, I disk in the fall, turning everything under and then sheet compost on top for the winter.

Lack of 'work pool' and fibromyalgia / degenerative joint disease, plus Paul being busy doing such stuff like earning money off the farm, left me with gardens still needing to be turned up.

Thankfully, we are on such sandy ground (despite 9 years of composting in the garden), that compost in the walkways of the this spring's garden will do well.

And if Ernie ever sneaks down to your place without stopping by to pick me up,. well .... you're in trouble ... I know how to make this statement 'stick' with my children, but with two grown, self-sufficient men.... Guess I can only call you both Poopy Heads. You're both still lucky I love you to give you another chance..... it better not happen again!


----------



## Forerunner

Hmmm...... that brings several thoughts to mind....

1. You could have had your onions in _three_ weeks ago.....
2. You might ought to expand your garden to the point that a small tractor could do the tillage work....
3. Ernie might be willing to till garden for you.... for pie ?
4. I definitely need an advanced knitting lesson, so......if Ernie forgets you again, he'll be in hot water twice.

Mainegirl..... did you read through the thread twice more and call a doctor of your choice, this a.m. ?

P.S...... after having lightly perused the infant stages of this thread, I feel it may be helpful to clarify.... There are some disjointed portions of conversation, including posts previous to and surrounding the "communing with the pile" post, all due to a dear friend/member having deleted their profile and all subsequent postings for personal reasons. 
This has left a rather haphazard narration, in places.

I apologize for the confusion, but submit that the attempt to make sense of it all as it currently lies in shambles should do nothing but sharpen the discernment and comprehension skills of the readers.


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## mainegirl

FR..thank you for your concern...no doctor this a.m.....got a liver like a rugby ball... 

FR, how could you have onions in already....just shoveled 14 inches off my deck.....I can't even see my beds.....did you make a deal with someone? hmmmm? 

thank you for the clarification about the disjointedness of the thread.....i was sure it was the Merlot making the thread disjointed...feel so much better....


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## maverickxxx

well im going to screen compost next week i forgot to take pictures so many things i wanted to do today. my pickers is anything over 3/4"


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## maverickxxx

ive got some pics i promised months ago







finshed product before screening







the old pile


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## maverickxxx

i guess i can only do one pic at a


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## maverickxxx




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## maverickxxx




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## maverickxxx




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## maverickxxx




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## HomesteadingFam

well, it has taken 3 nights to read all 30 pages of this thread...well worth the time  This is an awesome thread!!! I'm so inspired. Right now I have a 1/2 acre garden on our property and a dinky little compost bin with just our food scraps and paper products waste. I can't go too extreme because I am renting, but I think I can get one pick-up truck size heap without causing too much of a ruckus. I am going to see if the hobby shop on base can provide me with free sawdust...and I bet I can score horse manure from my neighbor. Thank you Forerunner et al, you are surely the Kings and Queens of composting knowledge! 

Off to conquer the rotational grazing thread...it's about the same length lol.


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## Poverty Knob

I have spent most of the afternoon/evening reading this thread. I would like to say THANK YOU to Forerunner and most of the other contributors. After 10 years of composting with meager results, I think I finally understand! The N, C, Ph always confused me before. I think I am ready to get serious now!Thank you for sharing in English!!!


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## NorthTexasGuy

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned on this thread - Is there a place in the compost heap for water from a lagoon septic system? This consists of liquid household sewage (including my gray water) minus solids. I am reading Rodale's composting book now and in the section on Municipal and Commercial composting it is mentioned that sewage sludge could be used to moisten high carbon material. Would this speed up decomposition?


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## Forerunner

HomesteadingFam and Poverty Knob.......
The honor to have been helpful is mine. 
It has been fun putting this thread together, with the help of allies and antagonists along the way. By all means do pursue the building and utilizing of good compost to the highest degree that you are able. 
....and feel free to ask questions and share results along the way.

NorthTexasGuy.....

Absolutely, the compost pile is the safest and most resourceful means of disposing of grey water.....
The trouble is that most households come up with far more grey water than most compost piles could handle without becoming saturated, and therefore anaerobic=ick.
The lagoon concept works in stabilizing the liquid via other bacterial participants than what are found in the pile.
If you and family were super frugal with water, and you were located in an area predominantly arid, and you had a slightly larger than average composting op, you might actually be able to utilize all of your greywater in the piles.
Otherwise, we're limited to irrigating the piles only so much as they need without saturation.
Of course, in the extreme sense, you'd have an awful lot of finished product in a year or two if you geared up to handle 100% of your grey water in your composting operation.

Now, if a fellow did live in a more arid region, and could build his piles in such a way as to expose large amounts of surface area....more of a thick mulch, of sorts, (say two-four feet thick and covering a larger area) and spray/introduce greywater uniformly so that _evaporation_ could be employed, and saturation avoided...._that_ could get interesting.
You'd manage your bacterial content and retain mineral nutrients while dispersing the extra water without flooding the microbes doing all the hard work.
All that said, we do come up with 20 gallons of greywater a day, average, and we do carry it out in buckets as often as not, and incorporate it into the piles. Our summers do get dry. When we're in a wet cycle, we let the plumbing handle the excess.

edited to add:

After reading your post again, Texas, yes..... greywater would definitely speed up decomposition in a high carbon base.
Dry sawdust, and greywater, in balanced combination, would be a pretty awesome stand-alone compost.
Depending on what all goes into your greywater, minus solids, you may still be short a little N...and, you may not.


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## Our Little Farm

Turned over an old composting pile yesterday to use for the garden and it is beautiful black soil, full of worms! :dance:

Loving it.


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## Forerunner

Worms, even !!! :grouphug:


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## NorthTexasGuy

Forerunner - thanks for the input. I have large amounts of hay available. It is mostly what is left on the pastures after feeding cows all winter. It's the nitrogen I'm having trouble locating. You see we don't have any animals penned up so manure is spread all over the pasture. Still looking...


I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but by me. John 14:6


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## Forerunner

That used hay, once pushed up with all the residual that comes with it, is going to be fairly well balanced for C/N, as is. If it's generally on the dry side, you should be able to use greywater to great benefit.
Sounds like you've got the opportunity to make quite a bit of the black stuff. :thumb:


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## mudburn

I'm still mourning the loss of the stock yard cleanings. Why did the parent company have to go bankrupt? :sob:

One of the things I did before they closed was to encourage the guy running the place to accumulate wood chips from the power line tree trimming guys so that he could put the chips in their back lots which are generally mud pits during the winter/spring months. It was a good idea since it would save them money (they would buy rock to put in the pens which didn't help much) and I anticipated getting the chips once they were well mixed with manure (what a blissful thought).

But, alas, they closed, and there sat about 12 loads of wood chips. Finally, after more than 4 months, my restraint wore away, and I brought them home where they will be properly appreciated. 










I recently had to tear my old Bobcat (which I bought last spring) apart to fix the starter and replace head gaskets. Although it is greedy with the fuel and a bit underpowered, it worked for loading the wood chips into my dump truck. I had to haul it to the stock yard on the trailer behind my smaller truck.

I hauled 6 loads on Sunday to get it all home -- about 72 cubic yards, give or take. It was a great joy to push them up into a pile about 9 feet high (why is it so satisfying to pile something as high as can be managed with an old tractor and worn out loader?).



















mudburn


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## mainegirl

mudburn....most excellent piles...(jealous...) we should have a contest..who has the biggest, tallest, most peed on pile> hahahaha...whew..


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## maverickxxx

im in too for tallest contest


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## taylorlambert

Gotta have pics of of the pile height not the other lol.


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## Forerunner

Kudos to Mudburn for salvaging _his_ wood chips from what will likely be an eternally vacant lot. I'd have done the same thing.


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## hairyhobo

Speaking of wood chips, I have access to some from the power company. Most of it is black walnut and ceder. I have heard that walnut trees put out some type of chemical that will prevent some things from growing near them, I guess to limit competition for nutrition. Does anyone know if using the chips as a mulch in the garden will harm anything?


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## Forerunner

Those chips will be a bit rich for a couple years, uncomposted, Hobo.
Juglone is the chemical you're referring to in the walnut.
Six months in a hot compost pile will neutralize the stuff.

Don't pass those chips up. Either time or a little processing will make a good resource of them.


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## Johnny Dolittle

Well FR I always wondered why HT gave this sticky thread the honor of being first to read but having read through the night it's contents I now know !

...The foundation of every successful homestead must be the pile !

Thanks for sharing your incredible hands on knowledge ... I have been inspired by the input and output of every contributor here and will today begin planing for my first pile. I will keep you updated as I proceed and will consult here when problems in the pile arise. 

FR you are undoubtly the Czar of waste management and the true Guru of poo!

Thanks.:goodjob:


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## Forerunner

Agreed on the point that HT has done me an honor by giving us this thread sticky.
Thank HT's resident municipal waste management expert and forum moderator, Cabin Fever.

Be sure to post pics..... Johnny Dolittle
There are those who read this thread and get quite agitated when we don't post pics.:lookout:


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## Johnny Dolittle

Well this pile is just topsoil but since you like pics I thought I would show off my little pooper scooper. Small but not too small to do the job for now and much better than being on the dumb end of a pitch fork. I did my time walking the dairy gutter back in the days before un-loaders.... and besides I need to save this old body for other manual chores like hoeing and such.

Should this operation grow to the extreme I can trade up to a bigger machine but for now must concentrate on the basics of getting it done right to perfection.

Got to go and gather the ingredients .... but will be reporting in on a regular basis.

Later...JD


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## Johnny Dolittle

Hello Mudburn new composting intern here. Have enjoyed seeing the way you operate also. If you have wood chips alone as a C source and you had a choice between cow or poultry manure would there be any advantage of one over the other?

Thanks ...JD


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## Forerunner

Around here, cow has more moisture in it.....a bit of a plus with wood chips.
Either would do well if moisture balance was tended to and enough time was allowed.


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## am1too

Would a hot compost pile destroy commercial weed killers such as clothianidin or these brand name products - confront, curtail, forefront, hornet, lontrel, millenium ultra, reclaim, transline. Some of these products I'm told have an effective life exceeding 10 years.


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## Forerunner

Hot compost...... i.e. a really well-constructed pile, will destroy those nasty substances, over time. My piles are so big that I don't worry about the residual chemical content.
Parts per million has to be ridiculously low.

For the smaller, home pile, I wouldn't recommend trying to neutralize too much contaminated material at a time.
A better approach would be to use composting to neutralize that material as a means of disposing of it; and on that note, put anything questionable through the heating process, twice.


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## hairyhobo

Forerunner, thanks for the info on the walnut chips. I will definitely haul them home,after all it's more free stuff for the pile, just won't use them as mulch this year. I, like a lot of people have been lurking on this thread since it's inception and appreciate all of the info from you and all the others. I hope this thread continues well into the future.


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## mudburn

If I had a choice between cow or poultry manure, I'd take both!  If the source said, "No, you can only have one," then I'd probably take the cow manure, unless the quantity of poultry manure was much greater. Either would work, though. Poultry manure would be higher in nitrogen, and the cow manure would have more moisture, like FR said. Either one would mix well with the wood chips or saw dust (I'd prefer saw dust because it'll break down faster). My desire is to bring in as much fertility as I can to replace what's been taken off this land over the last 80 years.

mudburn


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## Johnny Dolittle

Looking more like either sheep or horse manure for my first pile. Not much bedding material in it. I have some 55 gal plastic bag drum liners and a small fork and shovel to keep in the pick-up..... to be prepared when I am out and about and stumble onto pile building materials !!!

Have pick-up and 14 foot trailer for manure and the loader.
I have leaves, wood shavings from my wood shop and some junk round hay bales for carbon.

Still too muddy here and my manure suppliers will not appreciate making ruts.


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## alexus

Having seen Forerunner's compost piles and gardens up close and personal back in the summer of 2005, I'm still in awe 5 years later. It put a whole other meaning to the concept of composting.

air jordan retro
Nike air max bas prix


----------



## Ken Scharabok

Chatted with a friend last evening. Mentioned composting and she laughed and said she was probably the only one to add their vacuum cleaner canister content on the mulch pile. Hey, why not?


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## MOgal

Nope, she's not, Ken. I've been doing it for years.

Clean out my hairbrush? In the compost.

Groom the dogs? In the compost.

When I would shear my sheep before they died, the dung tags? You guessed it.

If it will break down, it goes in the compost.


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## sticky_burr

ok i have a 2 fer if anyone cares to add opinion

is municipal(sludge or no sludge in it either if it makes a difference) considered organic? can it be re added to a compost heap to eleminate any dioxins or other stuff. should it be re composted or aged in a home made heap?

if i built with chicken manure/litter what ever comes from the large egg farm in the next town and hit it with grey water or black water as built.. would it hold the moisture enough to work. this is not nessicarily a dry area for the most part will it hold enough moisture or will i need to water it or check it.

is it better to incorperate a limited supply of compost or just lay planting bed width rows what 3 foot and plant into it and disc it after the season? i know this is a varied answer there would be more of a need to incoperate if the ground was likely to hard packor ddidnt hold any water.. but i am wondering if the soil is "ok" consitancy. 

thanks again


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## Lloyd J.

am1too said:


> Would a hot compost pile destroy commercial weed killers such as clothianidin or these brand name products - confront, curtail, forefront, hornet, lontrel, millenium ultra, reclaim, transline. Some of these products I'm told have an effective life exceeding 10 years.


Some 'cides are long lasting even after the appropriate hot composting cycle. Clopyralid , which is an active ingredient in Confront, comes to mind and there are a couple of others as well. There aren't many that can survive a good hot compost cycle but there are a few.



Lloyd

P.S. Snowed overnight, still can't play in the 'post!:grit:


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## BigCountry

I have been lurking on here for a time, but figured I would come out of the closet and introduce myself. I see a couple of familiar faces from other sites on here. I have 9 acres of ground here in West Central Ohio. My composting is NOWHERE near what FR and Mudburn are doing, but it is more than adequete for my needs. There is a riding and teaching stable up the road who used to throw all their stable cleanings into a DUMPSTER! if you can believe it. That was before I started parking my high-side trailer up there. Now they call me whenever it gets 3/4 full and I go pull it home and empty it out. The village brings me 5-6 loads of leaves every fall, and the tree trimmers bring me a load whenever I ask them to. Besides that I spread about 60 loads of manure on the place with the spreader every spring, and a few more loads throughout the summer and fall. My garden soil has such fine tilth that you can sink into it to your knees if you're not careful. 
I recently made a small (55 Gal) compost tumbler in order to make potting compost. I am building a small greenhouse this summer so that I can start my own tomatoes, peppers, and cole crops next year. I do it in my living room window now, and I am constantly moving them about.
Anyway, I've learned a bit on here already and expect to learn more as time goes by. I just wanted to say hello and thank you.


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## sticky_burr

i saw a lovely 'invention' compost tumbler i dont recall if it was one of the people here or somewhere in my other travels. where they used 55 gallon steel drums horizontally and car axles and a electric motor to drive many drums. quite a contraption  not rivaling the monster piles of compost but looks like it would make a substantial amount faster


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## BigCountry

My compost tumbler is a simple one. A 55 gal plastic barrel with a hatch cut in the side. I screwed blocks of wood and tincans at random spots inside it to agitate the compost as it tumbles. I fill it about 2/3 full of manure, hay, leaves, straw, etc. I close the hatch with duct tape (it's like the Force; it holds the universe together) and then just roll it whenever I go to feed the chickens or walk past it. every week I flip it end for end. It works, and it's cheap. I probably should empty it and start another batch.


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## Lloyd J.

sticky_burr said:


> i saw a lovely 'invention' compost tumbler i dont recall if it was one of the people here or somewhere in my other travels. where they used 55 gallon steel drums horizontally and car axles and a electric motor to drive many drums. quite a contraption  not rivaling the monster piles of compost but looks like it would make a substantial amount faster


300 imperial gallon tanks actually

Video tumbler in action

Do some larger windrows as well

Makes for some nice 'post



Lloyd


----------



## driver308

wow, just wow you guys are great, gives me new ideas on sources for my composting.

Thanks FR and Mud



p.s. blame my mom for turning me onto this site and this post.....lol


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## myheaven

HEY TIM question for you. Can a bear cat type grinder, grind mass quanities of news paper and/or cardboard if its dry? I know you attempted to grind leaves when you had yours but they were wet and kept jamming. Have you ever attempted? 
We are composting our first dead animal dh was will to this time. we have our first pile built and have 3 more to go with pasture cleaning. We (no longer just I) are so excited to compost this year.


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## Forerunner

I do believe a feed mill of that type would grind just about anything that's dry.
The leaves did fine until the moisture level came up toward the inside of the pile.


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## taylorlambert

I may have mad e the score of a lifetime. A friend works at the paper mill and they give the lint away after its dried. Id have ot take at least 180 yards to get it free and delivered free. Its been certified by deq to be free of chemicals to.


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## Forerunner

Hmmm. _You_ need a sale barn.


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## mainegirl

taylor...i am SO jealous.......mostly because it's FREE which is even better than cheap..and I like cheap.....

What does 180 yards of lint look like? how thick is it? what kind of fiber is it made of? How will you compost it? PICS!


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## Forerunner

Be sure to incorporate lots of rainwater in your respective operations.....

.....and, yes, pics are nice.


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## myheaven

OH taylor you are one lucky person. I have alll the liquid manure I could ever dream of free and delivered I just need the carbon to marry it to. 
Looks like our area is going to stop the free recycling program (possible not cemented yet) so people are going to be tossing alot of paper. I want to try the bearcat grinder to grind it up and add the manure to it. Not to mention paper is great mulch and ok bedding .


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## taylorlambert

MG 180 cubic yards is 15 big 10 wheeler dump trucks full. or 4.5 of the big dumpsters like WM uses.  Its impurities from cardboard and new print pulp. It ll be a 4 week wait now Im still building a spot to drop it. I will mix it with a skid steer and add some poultry barn litter about 20 yards and about 15 of horse exhaust. 

Its pretty wet when they dump it. I know a place nearer that may be willing to drop me a load of it. 


I recently cleaned up an illegal leaf and grass dump on a friend place about 14 years worth of his 5 neighbors dumping their leaves and such on his lot. Its great stuff lots of bits of bag in it but where I dumped it the slope drain is dark green. GOt 10 yards of the stuff. Im wanting to use it in a raised bed for my carrots.


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## am1too

taylorlambert said:


> MG 180 cubic yards is 15 big 10 wheeler dump trucks full. or 4.5 of the big dumpsters like WM uses. Its impurities from cardboard and new print pulp. It ll be a 4 week wait now Im still building a spot to drop it. I will mix it with a skid steer and add some poultry barn litter about 20 yards and about 15 of horse exhaust.
> 
> Its pretty wet when they dump it. I know a place nearer that may be willing to drop me a load of it.
> 
> 
> I recently cleaned up an illegal leaf and grass dump on a friend place about 14 years worth of his 5 neighbors dumping their leaves and such on his lot. Its great stuff lots of bits of bag in it but where I dumped it the slope drain is dark green. GOt 10 yards of the stuff. Im wanting to use it in a raised bed for my carrots.


Screen it. All the bags bits and trash will be on one side of the screen.


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## taylorlambert

I have a small screener I built now working on a larger one for my topsoil and compost.


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## HillBunker

Sorry for the cross-post but thought perhaps I'd get a quicker response on the extreme composting thread. 
My thread is here... http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=393858

*Sad post for me. Our 9 year old pygmy goat was euthanized a few minutes ago. Broken jaw, anemic, and neurological symptoms most likely due to some sort of cancer. We had been nursing him for over a month now and it was time to let him go.

The vet saw my compost piles and suggested composting as the easiest form of disposal. Our typical piles are about 10' diameter and 6-7' high consisting of sheep and chicken bedding, household scraps, leaves, and (seasonally) fresh cut grass. I just seeded a new pile and its time to empty the animal stalls so we will have a hot pile shortly.

I know the body will compost fine but wanted to make sure that the resulting compost is safe to use on our vegetable garden. I haven't taken core temp readings (will from now on) but when I turn new piles they're usually smoking quite a bit and very hot to the touch. Should temps be high enough to kill anything of concern? He's about 50-60lbs as a frame of reference and we turn with our IH454 w/ front loader.

Hoping for some quick and knowledgeable responses.... thanks for the help.*


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## Forerunner

Ah, now......no need for apologies. We take 'em as they come, here. 

Compost that goat in your well-tended piles, buried a couple feet or more from the surface, and resist the urge to turn for a few extra weeks. In a hot, well-balanced pile, that goat will be dirt and odor-free bones in less than six months. When the odor is gone, feel free to use that compost anywhere.


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## HillBunker

Thanks Forerunner! Our buddy is now a part of the HillBunker Circle of Life. Seeded well with active compost and put 650+lbs of urine soaked sheep manure and bedding on top. Hopefully I'll have time to clear out the chicken pen this week and add that as well. I'll give it a good month (maybe two) before the first turn and keep an eye on it. Thanks again to the HST forum, you guys are great.


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## Forerunner

For the record, when composting animal carcasses, lean more toward the immediate addition of high carbon material rather than too much wet stall cleanings.
Stall cleanings do raise the desirable bacterial content, and if there is enough carbon available to balance _both_ wet stall cleanings _and_ animal carcasses, well.... yer gunna have some _good_ stuff. :thumb:


----------



## nebraskafarmer

Haven't been back to this thread in a while, wondering how everyone east of here is getting along with the wet weather, and trying to work ground, planting, etc, etc....

Here in central Nebraska we have been getting rain every three days which would be great if everything was planted, but up till the last week its been too cold for any kinda plating (even my potatoes which normally are just a substitute till corn planting weather).


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## margo

Here in the Ohio Valley, we are soaked to the bone,and are gettin darn tired of wet weather. Our cabbage starts have wanted real soil for a good while. We can't turn or till the garden for it would be like plowing soup.

Now about July, this rain would come in quite handy. So....we wait.:hair


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## SmokeEater2

Forerunner,thank you very much for starting this thread! I've read the whole thing and thanks to the ideas that You,Mudburn and all the other contributors to this thread have given me my composting efforts are going to be greatly expanded.

I've chased down a couple of power company chipper shredder truck crews and made arrangements for them to dump wood chips here and after talking to a few lawn care guys, they are more than happy to have a place to dump all their grass clippings and shredded leaves too. :banana02:

Another thing I learned from this was the ability to compost animals,which was something I'd never considered before at all. All the rest will will go into the compost and be a part of this ol' farm in a much more meaningful way than just being buried in the field.

Now if the rain will just stop and the ground dry up a bit I can start getting that good stuff hauled in here,but at least the rain should guarantee LOTS of grass clippings. :hobbyhors

Thanks again to you all!


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## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Smoke....

With all that delicious vegetable matter that you have lined up to march straight to your door, composting animals will be a pleasure, I'm sure.
Sounds like you have carbon covered, and that's the key to long-term composting.
Just embrace patience and let her continually reward you well. 

Oh, and....Arkansas, indeed..... stay safe down there.


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## sticky_burr

yes i have read it all ... but i dont recall seeing it answered . say you have a dog in the 'post with nessicary water and carbon... how long til you can turn the pile ? how about a cow ?


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## Forerunner

Depends on how big and how hot the pile.

Good pile/good heat..... a dog in two months, a cow in six to eight.
With proper equipment or motivation, one can always turn the pile..... 
If the critter ain't cooked all the way through, just reposition the remains in a bed of higher carbon concentration to finish.


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## sticky_burr

yea but i am thinking after a month a medium cow or lost calf woould be rather greusome lol i suppose after a few times it will be second nature.

is it benificial to open said .. animal matter up ?


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## Forerunner

There's no need to open up a pile with an animal carcass in it before breakdown is complete, if that carcass was buried in high carbon material to begin with.
For the squeamish layman(or woman) who needs to dispose of a dead critter, just leave that pile sit for a year or more.


----------



## raken

Wow my measly compost pile has lost some of it's shine (and smell haha). Guess I'll have to stay under the porch... can't run with the big dogs here.

Forerunner how much ground do you have? I know I read it but didn't retain it. Ya'll are awesome! Thanks for the inspiration, now I have to find contributors and a good parking space!!!! Thanks again. Please share more!


----------



## Forerunner

I'm actively working less than ten acres, at the moment.
.....and none of it is what I would call overdone with fertility.
Good? Oh yeah..... but every year sees another round of improvement in various positive soil and crop characteristics, and I'm still looking for that epitome of absolute soil fertility.
When I get there, I will definitely post all about it.

Don't hold your breath......


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> I'm actively working less than ten acres, at the moment.
> .....and none of it is what I would call overdone with fertility.
> Good? Oh yeah..... but every year sees another round of improvement in various positive soil and crop characteristics, and I'm still looking for that epitome of absolute soil fertility.
> When I get there, I will definitely post all about it.
> 
> Don't hold your breath......




When you get there what will you do next? After you Riverdance all over all the fields that is. :happy0035:


----------



## Forerunner

I suppose I'll take up space travel when the soil finally suits me.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Saturday night a **** decided to make a raid on my chicken coop and it didn't work out the way he planned. Our Pyrenees/Anatolian cross made it to the scene before any birds were killed (few lost feathers though) and ran him up on top of the hen house. After dispatching the raider this thread popped to mind and so the **** is currently adding to a pile of wood chips.

Before reading this thread I would have just disposed of the carcass and the soil would have received very little benefit from it. It's a small step I know, but now everything that can possibly be composted will be.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Been gone for a while, but had to check back in, catching up on the thread motivated my to call my tree man and order another load of chips!


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## HillBunker

Well the "goat pile" is already cooking. Dug about 1' deep to toss in what came from the kitchen compost pail and it was already smoking. Dang, just remembered that I need to take a core temp.


----------



## luv2farm

Forerunner said:


> For the record, when composting animal carcasses, lean more toward the immediate addition of* high carbon material *rather than too much wet stall cleanings.
> Stall cleanings do raise the desirable bacterial content, and if there is enough carbon available to balance _both_ wet stall cleanings _and_ animal carcasses, well.... yer gunna have some _good_ stuff. :thumb:


For those of us just starting this composting journey..... what are a few examples of Carbon?

I understand I need browns/greens. But at what percentage? This is all a little intimidating to me :stars:


----------



## Forerunner

Carbon sources include sawdust, wood chips, paper, straw, dry leaves, dry grass clippings, cardboard, etc. Old hay would work, too..... pretty much any dry vegetable matter.
I reckon those are all considered "browns".
You want your animal carcasses buried in browns.


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## kjmatson

Wonderful thread. My son and I got the strawberry bed taken care of today, added our compost, dried chicken bedding, fresh cut grass clippings and leaves. Should take care of fertilizing and slow down weeds for quite a while; be alot easier to keep up with. I will keep adding lawn clippings and straw to the rows through out the summer. I gotta say forerunner, you got my composting bug going like never before. When I dug in and saw all those worms this morning all I could think was "black gold"


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## Forerunner

Aw, cut it out...... yer gunna make me start cryin'.
I'm a soft-hearted sucker for a good worm story.....

I hope the compost bug goes pandemic and they never find a cure.


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## Homesteader at Heart

I enjoy this thread. Thanks, everyone, for posting.

I am working on a very small scale here, as we live on a small lot in town. I get free wood shavings from a lumber yard, which go in the chicken/rabbit pen. From there they go in the barrel composter, then into the small garden. Here are a few pictures.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t186/pdrhoads/Gardening and Chickens/044.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t186/pdrhoads/Gardening and Chickens/P6300047.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t186/pdrhoads/Gardening and Chickens/P6300038.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t186/pdrhoads/Gardening and Chickens/P6300040.jpg


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## Tarheel

Forerunner,

Do you think there is such a thing as getting the soil too rich ? No- not trying to be smart, just wondering if you worked years on a garden spot and kept adding to it each year if it would ever be possible to get it over composted.

My first thought is no, that if you do it right the nutrients would come out as the plants grow.

Thanks for the time and information you have invested on keeping us informed.


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## Forerunner

I've commented sporadically through the thread about how I've yet to see a peak in fertility around here. Each year, there are several noteworthy advances in crop quality, including, but not limited to:

size
health
quickness to maturity
advanced planting schedule due to black dirt heating up quicker in spring
flavor
keeping quality

I don't believe there is such a thing as over composting.
Now, there could easily be short-term over-manuring or other imbalance brought on by the incorporation of too much undigested material.

That said, there are crops that grow well in pure compost, and crops that like a little clay....or sand, mixed in.
Years of experience will help you find the balance.


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## Tarheel

Forerunner said:


> I've commented sporadically through the thread about how I've yet to see a peak in fertility around here. Each year, there are several noteworthy advances in crop quality, including, but not limited to:
> 
> size
> health
> quickness to maturity
> advanced planting schedule due to black dirt heating up quicker in spring
> flavor
> keeping quality
> 
> I don't believe there is such a thing as over composting.
> Now, there could easily be short-term over-manuring or other imbalance brought on by the incorporation of too much undigested material.
> 
> That said, there are crops that grow well in pure compost, and crops that like a little clay....or sand, mixed in.
> Years of experience will help you find the balance.


Thanks,

I've got the years, :happy0035: Now for the experience.


----------



## Barleychown

Forerunner, thank you for the time you've invested in this thread. Same to the other posters as well. 

That said, I've been bitten by the compost bug. I'll likely never "run with the big dogs", but nor will I stay on the porch.

I am on .33 acre in a small town...as such, I'm already pushing it with 9 hens, a pair of ducks, and two Nigerian dwarf does. What's a couple compost piles, right?:hysterical:

Now, if I can just get my husband to come around to the idea of dragging home "garbage"...:bored: While digging in a well amended bed, he made the comment that I have too many worms.:hammer: As if that is even possible.

First question...I can build my first pile either in the goat pen, which would give me to most area to work with, OR directly in a garden bed. Would essentially composting in place in the garden keep enough of the goodies and "juice" directly in the soil and be worth the hassle of working around the pile?


----------



## Forerunner

Barleychown said:


> Would essentially composting in place in the garden keep enough of the goodies and "juice" directly in the soil and be worth the hassle of working around the pile?


Welcome aboard, and...... definitely.
Composting in the center (or toward the upper end if you have a sloped garden) of the garden will prevent a lot of loss of nutrient. Plant melons, cucumbers or other vining crops around the perimeter of the pile to soak up the goody and to shade the pile as they spread out.

Don't lament your lack of space. I hold to the notion that, from those who are given much, much is expected.......and I'm just about wore out from making good on that. 

Take that little that you have and make it _sing_. 


Too many worms..... I'm going to be forever trying to get to sleep tonight from chuckling over that one.


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## Barleychown

Thank you. I was rendered speechless over that comment for quite some time. When my voice finally returned, I tracked him down and asked if he realized that I have spent 5 years trying to make those very worms happy. Apparently, that thought struck him as funny. 

In his defense, when I asked him to procure a large amount of poo/bedding mix, he came through for me. The first 7 yard load will be delivered tomorrow.:happy0035:

As for the "lack of space"...honestly it takes all I have to keep up with this land.  if I ever find the before and after pictures, I'll post the link.


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## Forerunner

Homesteader at Heart...... your operation is just way too tidy. 
Looks like a very good use of space, as well. :thumb:


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## trbizwiz

I have spent the last two weeks reading through this great thread. I have been a compost enthusiest for years. I started buying truck loads of compost 10 years ago from a nearby yard waste center in Springfield MO. They do a nice job of reducing landfill and improving the environment by reusing another mans trash. 

My family composts all of our kitchen waste Bokashi style, and I spray the golden goo on my pastures. The results are impressive. It is a very nice way for small time guys like me to make a larger improvement. We then take the solids from the bokashi bucket and conventionally compost them in a compost tumbler, which I rescued from a scrap heap and rebuilt. 

I have an endless supply of sawmill saw dust just 3 miles away and a 3/4 ton dodge diesel to haul it in. With a scoop shovel I can fill her cab high in about 15 minutes. It is a nice aerobbic workout, and it is easier on my 35 year old knees than running. 

I plan to follow the lead here and start composting all my expired animals in sawdust from here on. I am a little ashamed that I have not done it thus far. I have several friends that bowfish, so I will also be getting their 55 gallon drums full of carp and composting those as well. 

Sadly I live in a community that does not value recycling on any level. For close to 10 years I have fantisized about one day retiring, and starting a yard waste recycling center like the one in Springfield. Offering some sort of food scrap pickup from all the area restaurants, and providing a central spot for families to take their recycleables including compostables. I even envisioned coming up with some sort of container design that would make it easy for people to recycle and compost. I hope to make the operation self sustainable. So it would be a retail operation of some sort. Probably charging a small fee for animal carcases and a small fee for the finished product. I would probably have an area that I could accept scrap metal like old cars and appliances. I think if there were enough revenue streams it would survive. Now my goal is not to build a fortune 500 company, but to build something that is sustainable beyond my own financial support and effort. If I could help keep land fills emptier, and area soil healthier that is proffit enough. I am probalby years away from that dream, but I will be reading here and continuing to be inspired. I will also be honing my composting skills so when it comes time to get the permits I will be prepared. 

As a question I read a few posts about using straight saw dust piles as a heat source. Would that be a longer term heat source than a compost pile because it doesnt break down. I am guessing it would have a lower heat output. Is there a resource that offers formulas for figuring heat output per volume of compost and for volume of sawdust. I realize that build quality of compost piles will greatly effect output, but formulas considering proper build of a pile. Also you mentioned a few books a few times. DO you mind re listing htos. Sadly I was so frantically reading this thread I did not take time to open any links or amke note of any books. I was just trying to grasp the general concept. IF not I will just skim back thorugh and find them again. I know you guys are busy and I dont want to take time from your efforts, but if it is just quick memory recall the help is appreciated. 

Another shorter term goal I have is using compost and or sawdust as a heat source for a barn I will be building for housing bottle calves from Feb through March, and then brooding meat chickens from March through June, and September through November. If anyone has done anything like this that info would be helpful as well. 
Forerunner I know you use compost as a direct heat source for your home. How much of your home does it heat, and do you think using pex either in the concrete or directly in the pile would allow more effecient heating of you home? 

I am very excited about stepping up my composting efforts. My wife and I are currently halfway through a dave ramsey course of becoming more financially responsible. I have retired half our debt in the last 18 months, adn probably have 3 to 5 years of living like no one else so that later we can live and give like no one else. So most of my above dreams are longer term than 5 years. But I believe if I am faithful and work hard God will bless my efforts. And in the mean time I get to teach my sons how to be a man and what that really means. I am excited by teh challenges that my life is dealing with right now because I think they will make me a better father husband and man. 
Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far. You have definitely stoked my inspiration, and some have encouraed me that even my samll efforts now can pay off big later.

I have been practicing MIG for the last 2 years, but all my animal raising has more to do with me wanting to heal the land than nessesarily raise animals. They are just a means for the end. I hope to leave this earth a little better than I found it.


----------



## Forerunner

TRbiz.....you are a true kindred spirit....

As for heating with sawdust alone, well....I think a good C/N blend will heat more efficiently in the long run.
I'm not working miracles with my concrete bays against the house, but I do note an ambient temp difference of about 10 degrees in the kitchen, which is furthest from the wood stove....and we burn a notable amount less wood when the compost is cooking.

edited to add....... you would definitely see more efficient use of compost heat if you ran tubing and used water to tranfer the heat.

Good luck with any recycling program you try to set up.
A man finds out quick how short lived is the lip service of recycling promotion among government officials just as soon as he tries to set up a "business" to facilitate that end.
The powers that be aren't any more interested in recycling the earth to the benefit of all than they are handing in their badges and taking up work for a living.

Forgive the cynicism.

As for the books, I recommend Rodale's _original_ "Complete Book of Composting",
Peter Tompkins and Christopher Birds "Secret Life of Plants", and an older book, written in the mid 1800s, "Ten Acres Enough".

Get those digested, and we'll see how fired up that gets you.


----------



## trbizwiz

Thanks for the advice. I fear your statements about a composting facility to be true but hopefully it will still be possible. 
In the interim my primary exposure to helping heal the land is through rotational grazing. It does seem to help. I am very Interested to see how drought tollerant my forage has become this year through deeper routing into more fertile soil. 
Forerunner do you have any livestock? I think you may have mentioned chickens and possibly hogs. If so do you cut or plow compost into those pastures. Does that cause soil lugging us to the soil being soft with heavy animals?


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> and an older book, written in the mid 1800s, "Ten Acres Enough".


This book has been out of print for a long time but was reprinted about 15 years ago or so by Small Farmer's Journal. I'm not sure if they are still selling it or not.

Top notch book


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## Forerunner

We do have a couple horses, goats and cows. I've yet to compost any of their pasture areas, but have considered it. We've just now acquired a little extra ground on which I intend to do some intense rotational experimentation.......right around the corner from the creek I'm currently cleaning up in preparation for building a dam for water power.

As for soil lugging, watch the weather and keep the critters off the soft pastures when wet.


----------



## Forerunner

MullersLaneFarm said:


> This book has been out of print for a long time but was reprinted about 15 years ago or so by Small Farmer's Journal. I'm not sure if they are still selling it or not.
> 
> Top notch book


After a few years raising food on our scale, Wendy came to love that book--really appreciating the title-- and gave me a look -- :indif:-- any time I talked about expanding _beyond_ ten acres.....:whistlin:


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## trbizwiz

I guess I need to read that book. I know the truest way to happiness is to love what you have. For me another of my big dreams is to have 100 acres and 50 red polled cows all raising babies, which in turn will provide for my family. But maybe that goal is too ambitious for true happiness. I dont know for sure. 
I have had quite a trying past 24 hours. I failed to expect the unexpected and what I expected came up severly short. I questioned it and nearly lost the ability to provide for my family. Being the sole provider as my wife stays at home with our childeren, that was scary. THe whole situation caused me to question who I am and assess my value. I wasnt happy with my conclusions. I dont think the root of the problem is being cheated, albeit I was, but the root may lie nearer my ambition. Just stuff for me to ponder. But I have a ton of respect for those of you who have gone before me and sacrificed materialism to commune with family, nature, and Most of all God. 
I just need to focus on repaying my debt of selfishness, organize a plan to provide while still being involved, and commit to it. No longer do I care to be wealthy, I just want to be free. 
Sorry, back to composting. I think those books would be right up my list of need to reads. Ill do the fiscally responsible thing and check with the library first.


----------



## mldrenen

MullersLaneFarm said:


> This book has been out of print for a long time but was reprinted about 15 years ago or so by Small Farmer's Journal. I'm not sure if they are still selling it or not.
> 
> Top notch book



you can download and print it or read it online for free.

http://www.archive.org/details/tenacresenoughpr00morriala


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## Forerunner

I do believe the goal of a family cattle operation to be a very high calling.

The PTB wouldn't be so dead set against beef and livestock farming if they weren't a very good thing for family, land and local economy.....

As for your spiritual insights, well....... to have a handful of neighbors like you and Ernie would be, hmmm..... edifying ? to say the least ?


----------



## trbizwiz

Kind words.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Trying to get 100 yards of composted leaves delivered from a Muni dump, I'll let you know how it goes...


----------



## Homesteader at Heart

Thanks, Forerunner. Would love to visit you sometime and see how you do things on a large scale.


----------



## Forerunner

That would be quite a commute for you, but I'd be honored.......


----------



## SamanthaB

You guys would probably laugh at the size of my compost pile, but its getting there.  I started in March and am seeing a big difference. No longer does it look like just a bunch of stuff thrown out in a pile. 
Barleychown, my husband isn't on board with it yet, either, but he does not take to new ideas very well. I usually get the idea and have to produce results before he comes on board with it, and then he's an expert, lol. 
I think next year I might move it to the middle of my garden like you suggested, Forerunner, thats a great idea! It would make my workload easier, especially to be able to just toss my garden waste over there, or grab some to feed hungry plants. 
I do have a question though, I read from on source (though I can't remember where) not to use chicken poop on a compost, too hot. Thats the only time I have ever heard something like that, but I need to clean out my chicken coop and that would be a shame to waste all of that good,,, ahem, stuff! LOL 
Is that true? Doesn't really sound true.


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## mistletoad

Not true about the chicken poop. It is too hot to go straight on the garden, but it will do great things in a compost heap. You might need extra carbon sources on hand in case things start to smell, but if you are mixing in the litter it is probably quite well balanced and/or partially composted already.


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## Homesteader at Heart

Dittos on what mistletoad said.


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## Forerunner

There's two (generally) kinds of chicken poo.... wet/packed and dry/crumbly.
Anything wet, packed or no, should be composted, and does very _well_ in composting.


The dry stuff that's powdery, like a dry sawdust consistency, is great in the fall for the strawberry, asparagus and rhubarb patches. I dust all of the above with up to an inch of powdered chicken bedding residual. By spring everyone is happy and the plants are sporting steroid-induced behavior. :thumb:


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## trbizwiz

Well, the Librairy had secret life of plants so I have it to read this week. THey are ordering rodales complete book of composting from thier nearby branch and will have it later this week. I also ordered ten acres enough from amazon. The librairy could not get it. It was $9.33 shipped to me for a brand new copy. I am not an avid reader, but I have high hopes to read all three books this month. We will see. I am excited and motivated.


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## Forerunner

If you are excited and motivated, I advise against absorbing all three books in a month. 

But, if you do, let us know when you return to earth.


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## trbizwiz

The secret life of plants is a pretty thick book. I figure a couple hours an evening will get it read in a week or so. Sadly between working full time, taking care of a farm, coaching soccer 3 times a week, and t ball 2 times a week and church 2 times a week, and then lifting weights 3 days a week with a buddy who needs needs some of my time because of an unwanted divorce, I am spread pretty thin. But we gotta do what we gotta do. Soccer is over Saturday though, yay. My team is undefeated, I am very proud of them they work their hearts out for me. Only gave up 4 goals all season and these kids are 4 and 5 years old!!


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## SGFarm

Good Day and thanks for all of the information. 

So I have been working on my medium size compost pile for about 9 months now. I spread the first part out on the gardens this week. Thank God for the manure spreader. I have photos but they are still on my phone. I will upload them soon. 

So far I have spread 9 loads of manure and I estimate that there is probably another 20 or so loads (small spreader) but the rest of the material is only about 5 months old. Should I spread it thinner on the fields now or wait until fall when it is further composted. 

I am also cleaning out the deep bedding from the sheep pen and I am wondering if I can spread it directly on the fields now instead of piling and then reloading the spreader? 

Thanks for your time and consideration. 

Mike


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## Forerunner

If you have appreciable acreage and are "farming" on a larger scale, you can get by spreading raw material thinly and incorporating it with disc or what-have-you.
If you are "gardening" on just a couple acres or less, I recommend composting the material first. That said, five months in the pile _should_ be close enough....


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## SGFarm

Good Day Forerunner, thanks for the input. 

We have 25 acres and are reseeding 18 acres of fields that were rented out and were planted in corn last year. So I want to refresh the soil before seeding it. 

Thanks again. 

Mike


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## trbizwiz

If you are reseeding grass wait until fall. It is too late to plant grass now, unless is is sudan, zoyzia, or another summer grass. If you are doing a grain crop you are probably good to go. Though you may want to wait until the grain starts to come up before spreading so the weeds dont get a head start.


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## SGFarm

I was planning on seeding hay as I need more pasture. Our fields are still too wet to work yet. Standing puddles make it tough to plow. And more rain all week. 
Off topic I know but what if I sow oats and underwear with hay

Thanks
Mike


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## trbizwiz

I dont know what part of the country you are in, but planting any kind of fescue woul dbe wasted money this time of year. By the time it gets estabilished it will likely be hot and dry and the plants will die with out giving you any yield. 

You could plant a sudan grass (it is a kind of sorghum) but make sure it is grazed down before first frost. Just like johnson grass those types of grass become toxic if exposed to frost. They do quite well in hot dry conditions.

Most hay should be planted in fall or very early spring. You could get some litter or a copious amount of compost spread and it will fertilize the weeds as you call them. Many weeds make very good forage for rumenants. Then this fall put out your hay.

I like to plant cereal rye, clover, alfalfa, winter peas, bob oats, perennial rye, and brassicas in the fall. I get plenty of volunteer grass of several different varieties, so I dont usually put out K31 or orchard or what ever.

It is your farm and your money so do what ever you like, but seed is quite expensive right now, I hate to see you waste money. By the way I have been where you are and made this mistake, so I am coming from a position of experience. 
On the upside if you go ahead with your plan, and plant deep enough you should get a very nice stand in the fall. Good luck.


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## sticky_burr

i'll start with questio time  
can you compost(easily) exotic wood saw dust? ie teak and mahogany. i am still confused as they are 'rot resistant' i would guess no .. but i havent a clue lol

riddly me this if you were to plant innoculated clover on a sawdust pile.. would it afix enough nitrogen to compost it self?

wouldnt compost be considered as maintance? if one had 'ok' soil and grew normal veggie fare what would a good maintence dose of 'post to add 1/2 inch? 1 inch? 4 inches?

and my dream is a good life with many many money trickles and do some good work, ie 50-120 acres near a popuation base in various states ie part in veggies part in pasture part in field crop, perhaps annother in camelina production if needed. where as i can (only i hope) break even in one area and stil be 'ok' i can feed masses and if sme one is hungry and not lazy i can put them to work and home with food provided they are legal to work. like pick 2-4 foods and take one home with you. or if they cant get around shell some peas or something to help


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## trbizwiz

I am guessing any carbon based item will compost. Those rot resistant woods probably have a tighter grain and more oil or sap, which those effects would be lost when it is transformed into saw dust. Even woods like walnut which has palnt toxic juglone hormone in it are safe to compost. After the compost process the juglone is broken down. It amy take more N and more time to compost a harder wood.
I like your dream I often fanticize about the same thing. My friends think my farming aspirations are carzy, expecially considering my off farm job and income. But that off farm job feels like a prison to me. I dream of the day I can retire from it and work very hard on the land. If I had not made such bad descisions in the past with the use of credit I would be farming right now. But I bought a big fine home that I thought I deserved, only later figuring out it is an extended prison sentence. But I will work very hard for the next 5 years, building my farming experinece, and paying off my stupidity. THen maybe after 5 more years of savings I can live my dream. I contemplated short selling my home and selling assets to pay the difference, but I have the land pretty healed, so I think I will just stick it out. My home is very safe built with ICF's and we have access to lease land directly adjacent. so leaving and starting over may not actually lead to faster freedom. Too bad I can sell it for what it cost in the first place. I woudl do that in a heart beat, and buy 100 acres and build a Straw Bale house with a concrete safe room, and live the dream. 
But I would never get any smarter if I did not start out stupid.


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## kjmatson

Side dressed my onions with compost before we had a few days of good light rain, and covered the compost with about 4 inches of grass trimmings. They really enjoyed that treat and I can't wait to see what they do after a couple days of sunshine and nice weather.


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## CesumPec

Matthew Lindsay said:


> I am yet to achieve black soil nirvana. We started a 25ft by 25 ft garden 2.5 years ago on hard red NC clay. ... I just can't believe how much biomass I have put in this small space to still have heavy clay soil....


I have only recently discovered this thread and want to thank Fore, Mud, and all the contributors for the great work they have done. I'm an avid composter and can't wait to get off of my suburban lot and onto my Florida farm.

Here is a little math (with lots of approximations and rounding that might not hold 100% true depending on individual soils and composts composition) to help explain why so much organic matter is needed to improve poor soils. I learned this from numerous scholarly sources and perhaps the best is this book, _ Building Soils for Better Crops_ which is available from SARE for free download here http://www.southernsare.org/Educational-Resources/Books/Building-Soils-for-Better-Crops-3rd-Edition

An average weight of a dry soil is very roughly 100 lbs / cubic foot. Your 25 x 25 garden plot contain 625 sq ft. To a depth of 6 inches it contains 312 cubic feet or 31200 lbs of soil. Remember that your compost source, even if it is feels very dry, may still be more than 10% water weight and things like pig manure are a very high percentage of water by weight. So you might have to add 125 - 150 lbs of compost to be adding 100 lbs of dry weight organic matter. To raise your garden's organic matter content by 1% requires 300 lbs of dry weight compost. 

But it gets worse...that organic matter in your soil is going to decay further, leach away, be drawn into your plants where crops get exported from the farm, etc and will be 50% gone in one year and near 100% gone in 4 years. Farming in 5 - 7% organic matter (OM) content soil will produce satisfactory crops, although the soil will still be ugly clay that an extreme composter can't be proud of. To get to 7% OM and keep it there will require you to add over 2100 lbs of dry weight compost the first year and about half that amount each year there after.

For those readers working on a farm scale level, 7 to 10 tons of dry weight organic material per acre per year are required to keep the soil at 5 to 7% OM and that will be better soil than most of the world's farms. 

But to give you the satisfaction a great looking, rich smelling, super productive soil that needs no artificial fertilizers and supports a huge amount of beneficial bacteria, worms, etc, the kind of soil I want, raise your soil's organic matter content enough to bring the clay content down to 50%. That's going to require 300 lbs x 50 = 15,000 lbs of dry weight organic matter in year one and 7500 lbs every year after. 

Convert that to a rough approximate wet weight of compost and manures and you're looking at 10 tons of inputs into that 25 x 25 garden in year 1 and 5 tons in following years.


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## sticky_burr

more questions  lol if ones had a 'limited' amount to apply to garden would it be best to mix in a trench, layer over top of the row, or just cast thinner over all

is it possible to plant in pure compost? is it a good idea?

i as well made plenty of short sighted decisions but never used credit, so thats even worse than having poor credit. i know several people with too much debt to climb out of and they get credit cards constantly where as I cannot get one to make credit


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## trbizwiz

Trust me brother you are better off not being allowed credit. I am fortunate that I only over used credit on a house. I would be in real trouble if I have credit cards and a bunch of other debt. THat doenst make my last home purchase feel any less foolish. I did feel a little value last night as my family layed comfortably in our master closet in safety from a storm that took so much from so many. I took much comfort in those 17 inch thick concrete and brick walls at that very moment. Unfortunately the custom cabinets and granite adn other garbage that cost so much provided no additional security. Ive learned and moved on. I'll pay it off and teach my sons better stewardship of their gifts.
No dont spread your compost thinly. The sun will take the N right out of it. as to planting directly in it. If it is properly made compost that would be good for most garden variety plants. Depending on your other soil you may not want to plant broad rooted trees that way. It may cause them to root bind. IF the compost is not balanced and well composted planting directly in it may be ill advised. BUt I will defur to whatever Forerunner and mudburn say they are the resident experts. I just wanted to share some quick thoughts I had.
I am part way through rodales composting book. Very good read, I recomend anyone take the time to read it. You librairy should be able to get it for you for free..


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## sticky_burr

i was thinking compost and lots of slow acting fert like greensand


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## Silvercreek Farmer

CesumPec said:


> I have only recently discovered this thread and want to thank Fore, Mud, and all the contributors for the great work they have done. I'm an avid composter and can't wait to get off of my suburban lot and onto my Florida farm.
> 
> Here is a little math (with lots of approximations and rounding that might not hold 100% true depending on individual soils and composts composition) to help explain why so much organic matter is needed to improve poor soils. I learned this from numerous scholarly sources and perhaps the best is this book, _ Building Soils for Better Crops_ which is available from SARE for free download here http://www.southernsare.org/Educational-Resources/Books/Building-Soils-for-Better-Crops-3rd-Edition
> 
> An average weight of a dry soil is very roughly 100 lbs / cubic foot. Your 25 x 25 garden plot contain 625 sq ft. To a depth of 6 inches it contains 312 cubic feet or 31200 lbs of soil. Remember that your compost source, even if it is feels very dry, may still be more than 10% water weight and things like pig manure are a very high percentage of water by weight. So you might have to add 125 - 150 lbs of compost to be adding 100 lbs of dry weight organic matter. To raise your garden's organic matter content by 1% requires 300 lbs of dry weight compost.
> 
> But it gets worse...that organic matter in your soil is going to decay further, leach away, be drawn into your plants where crops get exported from the farm, etc and will be 50% gone in one year and near 100% gone in 4 years. Farming in 5 - 7% organic matter (OM) content soil will produce satisfactory crops, although the soil will still be ugly clay that an extreme composter can't be proud of. To get to 7% OM and keep it there will require you to add over 2100 lbs of dry weight compost the first year and about half that amount each year there after.
> 
> For those readers working on a farm scale level, 7 to 10 tons of dry weight organic material per acre per year are required to keep the soil at 5 to 7% OM and that will be better soil than most of the world's farms.
> 
> But to give you the satisfaction a great looking, rich smelling, super productive soil that needs no artificial fertilizers and supports a huge amount of beneficial bacteria, worms, etc, the kind of soil I want, raise your soil's organic matter content enough to bring the clay content down to 50%. That's going to require 300 lbs x 50 = 15,000 lbs of dry weight organic matter in year one and 7500 lbs every year after.
> 
> Convert that to a rough approximate wet weight of compost and manures and you're looking at 10 tons of inputs into that 25 x 25 garden in year 1 and 5 tons in following years.


My total for the past 3 years is around 15,000 lbs or so, so I guess I need to step it up! (I keep telling my wife this)


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## trbizwiz

For farm sclae composting check out the rotational grazing sticky. Rotational grazing is farm scale composting. The idea is to eat grass and trample lignified forage in to the soli, then deposit manure adn urine on top of that nd then let the microbes work for 28 to 40 days then start over. It is the lowest input form of extreme composting out there. You just need a few cows and some push posts and electric wire and a charger. you control where they are and how long they are there. THen you give the compost time to rest and decompose. You can build quite nice soil over a large area in a few short years. COmbine these two tehniques and you could have some very healthy land, even if you start with garbage.


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## Forerunner

trbizwiz said:


> For farm sclae composting check out the rotational grazing sticky. Rotational grazing is farm scale composting. The idea is to eat grass and trample lignified forage in to the soli, then deposit manure adn urine on top of that nd then let the microbes work for 28 to 40 days then start over. It is the lowest input form of extreme composting out there. You just need a few cows and some push posts and electric wire and a charger. you control where they are and how long they are there. THen you give the compost time to rest and decompose. You can build quite nice soil over a large area in a few short years. COmbine these two tehniques and you could have some very healthy land, even if you start with garbage.



Kinda funny that tending a herd, whether it be sheep, cattle, goats, etc. is the oldest and, rather most labor unintensive means by which to build soil, feed a family and make a "living" upon this good earth.
No wonder the greenhouse gas lobby is so widely publicized and championed by the powers that be.....those powers which would have us living on insect scraps and grass while they eat steak and travel the world with aplomb.

Don't get me started.


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## trbizwiz

It is definately a part of the plan for building good soil. Years of abuse and neglect will be hard to over come with out bringing in inputs. That is where extreme composting comes in. You can feed and nourish the soil. COmpost not only adds nutrients to the soil but imporves it's water holding capacity for droubt tollerance, and it aides in soil areation. It will take both to improve the land. 
you guys are doing great work here to teach and motivate. I think it takes a huge effort to make a little change in some people. But if a huge effort is made by a few to make a small change in many the net effect is a gigantic change. If your giant piles encourage a million people to compost their veggie scraps that could reduce land fills by a huge amount, and improve potting soil for millions of patio gardens. Potting soil that other wise would have been trucked form who knows where using valuable resources adn energy, and giving no owner ship to the user. If you make the soil you will take better care of it than if you buy it for $2.50 a bag on sale at Lowes. plus you will have a greater understanding of what goes into building soil and helping things grow.


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## sticky_burr

well since brought up LOL its in the plan i am thinking of intensive rotational with alot of clover(hope with a nitrogen surplus in the next rotation) 1(or 2) years then drill/cast feild crops(wheat corn squash camelina squash) for a year or two following then sub soil plow/ dig 1/2 and 1/2 with compost mix for double/triple row crops and my ~210 tasty tobaccy plants  with a couple heavy clover ~ 4 foot wide paths for rabbit or chicken tractors... for a year or two then the knock down the 'post high spots with a disc and start all over.

IF i have too much land to handle ie row crops i will add in a 4th stage of hay somewhere

but anyway HUGE 'post heaps will be needed lol


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## trbizwiz

sorry for the OT.


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## sticky_burr

lol then again isnt the cow known as the best composter available they process carbonous material faster and better than any heap i know of


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## trbizwiz

This is true. THey are some of the finest digesters available too, just hard to capture the methane for useful purposes. 
To this note of animals and composting, would hogs be an efficient compost turner or would they be too difficult to regulate. i think I saw in the thread somewhere someone mention using them. I just fail to remember what the context was. I am all for tractors and loaders. But I am interested in having sustainable alternatives for the EOTWAWKI. I may be paranoid, but I feel it coming. Living 20 minutes from Joplin makes that feeling all that much clearer too.


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## Forerunner

Joel Salatin is the man to read when it comes to closed loop rotational cattle grazing/feeding hay in winter, hog-turned compost, pasture-raised poultry, etc.

As for you apology, TRB...... I don't believe in "off topic".
We can incorporate just about anything into this conversation.
Think of this thread as a big compost pile. 

20 minutes from Joplin...... now that's for real.


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## CesumPec

Matthew Lindsay said:


> My total for the past 3 years is around 15,000 lbs or so, so I guess I need to step it up! (I keep telling my wife this)


I just checked out your blog. You're living my dream. The chooks, pigs, garden, composting, I can't wait to get off of my suburban lot and onto a farm. 7.5 tons of organic matter in 3 years has to be great for your garden. You might still see clay but that soil should be very productive.

I've just finished unloading my 6th P/U Truck load of free landfill mulch, getting all the flower beds looking good around the house. But what I want to do is create a HUGE pile on farmland. My dream is about to become reality, I think. I have two offers out on Florida farmland, carefully crafted so that at no one time are both of them live, and both came back today with a yes. 

I hope to begin work soon so that I can embarrass your puny 7.5 tons effort.  

Of course, there is no catching Forerunner. [strongsad


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## trbizwiz

It was real Sunday. We went down to help out. I was awe struck, both good and bad. The out pouring of help and love from complete stangers was amazing, the devastation and uncertainty of the safety and whereabouts of loved ones was bad. The community will rebuild and be better than before, but they paid a very high cost for that rebuild. 

I have read a lot of Joel's stuff. I would like to read more, but he mostly sells books, and that is not my favorite forum for learning. Though I am reading 3 right now and finished one last week. More reading than I have done in the last 10 years. I am just tired of making excuses. Stockman grass farmer is a good place to read Salatin's stuff, but most of that is teaser stuff not a lot of substance.


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## CesumPec

I was going to start another thread for this but since extreme composters are discussing the role of composting with rotations and pigsâ¦

I do not yet have the personal experience to validate this plan, but drawing from Carla Emery, Joel Salatin, the UF Ag extension agent and website, and a few other sources here is the plan I'm starting next year. I would appreciate any critique and wisdom offered.

Divide land into 5 portions with this rotation plan which fits with my climate, soil, and root knot nematode problems in Florida:

Plot 1: garden veggies and pile up as much compost as possible (or maybe as much as practical so that I avoid developing AFCS - Advanced Forerunner Composting Syndrome) as the veggies finish for the year.

Plot 2: pigs and compost. The pigs are supposed to eat worms while turning compost and soil, culls from the garden, forage from the other plots, and store bought feed as a last resort.

Plot 3: kenaf or some other biomass plant in order to create fodder, mulch, bedding materials, and wood chips for covering composted critters. Haul in compost and red worms as soon as harvest is complete in order to build the worm supply for the pigs the next year. Does anyone see any problems with that? 

Plots 4: perennial grasses which are hard on the nematodes. Some of the hay will be harvested; some will grazed by cattle and chickens. 

Plot 5: another year of hay to further reduce nematodes and provide fodder.

Each year the plots move up one numbered plot, the garden goes where the pigs were, the pigs tear up the previous yearâs kenaf field, etc. Any of the plots can contain large compost piles that get spread at an appropriate time, but the pig plot wonât have composting critters where the pigs might uncover something vile and half cooked.


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## Forerunner

Remember to feed the weeds you pull out of that garden to the pig and chickens....
You may not have to import red worms. They show up as soon as the party is on, in my experience.


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## SamanthaB

mistletoad said:


> Not true about the chicken poop. It is too hot to go straight on the garden, but it will do great things in a compost heap. You might need extra carbon sources on hand in case things start to smell, but if you are mixing in the litter it is probably quite well balanced and/or partially composted already.





Homesteader at Heart said:


> Dittos on what mistletoad said.





Forerunner said:


> There's two (generally) kinds of chicken poo.... wet/packed and dry/crumbly.
> Anything wet, packed or no, should be composted, and does very _well_ in composting.
> 
> 
> The dry stuff that's powdery, like a dry sawdust consistency, is great in the fall for the strawberry, asparagus and rhubarb patches. I dust all of the above with up to an inch of powdered chicken bedding residual. By spring everyone is happy and the plants are sporting steroid-induced behavior. :thumb:


Thanks for the info! 

I have another question: We are in an extreme drought here, almost a year with no measurable amount of precip, wildfires, the whole thing. Well, my compost pile gets dry!! Alot of times it seems like the stuff is just drying up rather than decomposing. 
So what I usually do is I take my two compost pails (2 big coffee cans) out to the pile, empty them, then fill them up with water and kind of rinse them out, pour that on the pile. It helps, but I am wondering if I should take a water hose to it to soak it? Would that do more harm than good? I am also wondering, would it make the seeds from my veggie scraps grow?


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## Forerunner

Definitely irrigate that pile.
Dig in a couple feet or so and check the condition.
If it's dry that far in, and if there is little or no heat, it's too dry.
In your area, it's good to form a depression in the top center of the pile to catch what rain you may get, and to catch what you spray on the pile with that water hose.
Don't over-do it, by any means. A saturated pile is as bad as a dry one.

The moisture consistency just inside the pile should be similar to that of a lightly wrung sponge. I have seen a dry, cool pile heat overnight with the addition of water.
Don't worry about the seeds from your table/vegetable scraps. If they germinate, they can be turned in or buried with more material.


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## mainegirl

samanthaB.....Forerunnner would also tell you to pee on it every chance you get.....


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## Freya

mainegirl said:


> samanthaB.....Forerunnner would also tell you to pee on it every chance you get.....


I was about to say I was suprised he did not mention the need to "commune" with your pile on a regular basis! 


ound:


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## SamanthaB

mainegirl said:


> samanthaB.....Forerunnner would also tell you to pee on it every chance you get.....





Freya said:


> I was about to say I was suprised he did not mention the need to "commune" with your pile on a regular basis!
> 
> 
> ound:


LOL! Well its actually in full view of my neighbors, they're kind of old, don't want to give them a heart attack!


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## BruceC

CesumPecâ¦ I read your synopsis of âBuilding soils for better cropsâ and I have 2 contentions:


> An average weight of a dry soil is very roughly 100 lbs / cubic foot.


Dig down 2 foot where the soil is compressed and it weighs 100#/foot3 (I always heard 120#)â¦ but fluffy, airy top soil is lighter. Check potting soil sold in 1 cubic foot bagsâ¦ it weighs 40 to 80 pounds depending on water and added peat. AND organic matter certainly doesnât weigh as much as soil so you canât just figure 1% of soil weight to get 1% increase of OM.



> that organic matter in your soil is going to decay further, leach away, be drawn into your plants where crops get exported from the farm, etc and will be 50% gone in one year and near 100% gone in 4 years.


Is that a fact? It was scientifically proven that plants take near zero weight out of the soil (I canât recall the scientist name). 

I donât âknow for factâ what Iâm about to sayâ¦ plants donât need organic matter, they need the microbiology that feeds on organic matter. The microbiology is pivotal in bringing nutrients to the roots. Compost causes a microbiology bloom that plants benefit from. But, I would agree, without new organic matter the bloom will fade. Henceâ¦ wore out soil. How much OM is needed for sustainability? Is crop residue enough? 



> Your 25 x 25 gardenâ¦ To get to 7% OM and keep it there will require you to add over 2100 lbs of dry weight compost the first year and about half that amount each year there after.


Iâm thinking of the best condition in nature for replenishing organic matter to the earthâ¦ say a single big oak tree surrounded by 4â tall grass, like 40â vertical feet of organic matter raining down in a 25x25 spaceâ¦ would that = 1050#? It would come close I think. Is thatâs what needed to farm without chemicals? No, if it were then farming would have never developed. 

CesumPec, you did bring up an overlooked detailâ¦ just how long will compost last and what is needed to sustain. Very interesting.


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## Cascade Failure

I don't know if I have already made the following comment on this 35 page thread (THIRTY FIVE WONDERFUL PAGES!) but, I compost very differently than most of you.

All year long I build my pile from kitchen scraps, yard trimmings, cleaning out the rabbit coops, animal/fish parts, friends' ex-wives, saw dust from the shop and finally fall/spring clean up. Just the leaves alone give me a lot to work with. 

I probably don't turn or water the pile enough although I do "commune with the pile" often. Come spring I break out the mulching mower and chop everything into dime size pieces. This gets re-piled until seedlings emerge and then gets uses as a mulch in the garden. Come fall there is very left that you can identify as, "this used to be an oak leaf or a chunk of corn stalk."

Just wanted to share what works for me.

Now a question. If compost can improve a soil's water holding capacity, is it possible to over do it? I would guess no over the the long term but there may be the short term possibility. Your thoughts?


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## Forerunner

Compost is funny stuff. It holds water well, and drains well. 

How does that mulching mower handle the, say, femur on an ex-wife skeleton ? :shrug:


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## trbizwiz

NO, it doesnt allow the soil to get saturated like water logging poor soil, it just holds what it needs. I forget the amount but it is several times the weight of the compost. ALso according to rodales the boost you see in growth after a rain in poor soils is because the water logged soil gives up all of its nutrients in the water solution waterlogging the soil. the plants are able to take up those nutrients quickly and have a boost of growth. The rest of the nutrients are washed away and lost and the plants suffer in thelong term adn often go dormant during drier weather. highly humic soil doesnt do this so plants have slower more steady growth even through dry periods. 
Just FYI. Rodales complete guide to composting will likely answer every question you could have. Great book. i am only to chapter 4 I have been quite busy. But I am enjoying reading it. 
Another book I am reading at the same time is Point Man by Steve Farrar. it is a great book for fathers. It has nothing to do with composting, but building quality young men is equally important to building quality soil. Maybe more so. One thing I have learned so far is if I wnat my sons to grow up to better men than I am I need to be a better man than I am. It is ironic that in my raising them, they too are raising me.


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## CesumPec

Bruce>>Dig down 2 foot where the soil is compressed and it weighs 100#/foot3 (I always heard 120#)â¦ but fluffy, airy top soil is lighter. Check potting soil sold in 1 cubic foot bagsâ¦ it weighs 40 to 80 pounds depending on water and added peat. AND organic matter certainly doesnât weigh as much as soil so you canât just figure 1% of soil weight to get 1% increase of OM.<<

I mostly agree with you. There is much debate as to the weight of a cubic foot of dirt. It depends on many factors, wet, dry, OM, clay, sand, etc. _Building Better Soils_ uses 2M lbs for one acre 6 inches deep which works out to 91+ lbs / ft3. And the authors acknowledge it is just a rule of thumb estimate. In general, the better the soil the less it dry weighs because the organic matter is lighter. The 120 lbs is a figure building engineers use because they have to design for worst case scenarios. I used 100 lbs just because it is a nice round number and MatthewL said he didn't have nice fluffy top soil but rather he was trying to improve heavy clay soil. 

Bruce>>Is that a fact? It was scientifically proven that plants take near zero weight out of the soil (I canât recall the scientist name). <<

Agreed. If you plant, grow, eat, and poop out the remains, nothing ever leaves your farm. But if you export veggies or livestock from the farm, you have removed that weight of OM as well as all the nutrients in the product. Even if you operate in the most sustainable way, with zero erosion, composting of all remains and manures, if you export nutrients and OM from the farm, you are losing the battle for better soils.

Bruce>>How much OM is needed for sustainability? Is crop residue enough? <<

Crop residue is not enough because even if you aren't exporting OM with your crops, you still lose OM and nutrients through leaching into the soil and wind and water erosion. _Building Better Soils_ recommends a minimum of 5 - 7% OM for commercial farmers where they expect additional chemical fertilizers to be used. And I believe they were taking into account the economics involved. 

I don't recall an OM% they used for organic farmers. There might be some theoretical too much OM, but in application, you can't really over do it from a productivity perspective when using proper compost made from a mixture of natural materials. Of course you can over do it if using burning materials like fresh chicken manure (nitrogen overloads) or using source materials that is over loaded with a particular mineral like magnesium. How you would get compost materials with concentrated magnesium I don't know, maybe someone else will know an organic source.

The authors did warn that from an economic perspective you can over do it because there will be natural leaching and plants are only going to grow so fast. 


Bruce>> Iâm thinking of the best condition in nature for replenishing organic matter to the earthâ¦ say a single big oak tree surrounded by 4â tall grass, like 40â vertical feet of organic matter raining down in a 25x25 spaceâ¦ would that = 1050#? It would come close I think. Is thatâs what needed to farm without chemicals? No, if it were then farming would have never developed. <<

Remember, throughout most of human history, agriculture depending on finding new ground, robbing it of nutrition and OM, and then moving on to the next plot.


----------



## sticky_burr

welll as i recall "good" soil is ~50% air space, some times those air spaces are water filled, so what was that 'dry' soil ? was it good soil or dry compact mostly mineral and a few old roots. 
on that note does anyone know how many tons of matter a eath worm will move a year?


----------



## CesumPec

sticky_burr said:


> does anyone know how many tons of matter a eath worm will move a year?


Red Worms, _Eisenia fetida_, will eat half their body weight daily. I found one source that said their entire body weight daily but I've seen half used more often. 

I found a bait and compost supplier that said 1 lb of red worms is approx 1000 worms. 

If we go with 1/1000th of a pound and half it's body weight daily, you get to about one-fifth of a pound year. (someone check my math) That doesn't sound like much but in good conditions, the worms will also double in number every 100 days or so.


----------



## CesumPec

Bruce, I just realized I didn't answer one of your Qs. Yes, the 50% decay in one year, almost 100% decay in 4 years is as stated in _Building Better Soils_.


----------



## BruceC

to cesum...


> Bruce>>Is that a fact? It was scientifically proven that plants take near zero weight out of the soil (I can&#8217;t recall the scientist name). <<
> 
> Agreed. If you plant, grow, eat, and poop out the remains, nothing ever leaves your farm. But if you export veggies or livestock from the farm, you have removed that weight of OM as well as all the nutrients in the product. Even if you operate in the most sustainable way, with zero erosion, composting of all remains and manures, if you export nutrients and OM from the farm, you are losing the battle for better soils.


The scientist&#8230; it was Jan Baptista Van Helmont
Search for his willow tree experiment. He dried 100 pounds of soil in a furnas, then planted a willow tree in it, cared for it for 5 years&#8230; removed the now 160 pound willow, recovered and dried the soil and found it still weighed 100 pounds. He incorrectly came to the conclusion the tree must have grown from the water but later scientist discovered photosynthesis. Plants are sunlight.

So you don&#8217;t have to poop out the remains, hehe. If you did you&#8217;d be increasing the soil. Good rich top soil is constantly being naturally made. I&#8217;ve seen plenty of old brick sidewalks and gravel roads that are 3-4 inches underground just from grass growing through and decomposing for 80 years. Unfortunately&#8230; I think the best top soil is now made in back yards because every inch that can produce a nickel is chemically farmed and the soil is bare 9 months a year. 

As far as decomposing and leaching&#8230; I still think I&#8217;m right about microbes eating the OM&#8230; and pooping out humus. A bigger concern is erosion washing away 100 years worth of soil in a day&#8230; 



> Bruce, I just realized I didn't answer one of your Qs. Yes, the 50% decay in one year, almost 100% decay in 4 years is as stated in Building Better Soils.


I heard you first time; I just find it hard to believe. If it really dose take 1000 pounds of mulch to sustain 650 foot2 of garden soil, that&#8217;s 1.5# per foot2. Doesn&#8217;t sound so bad when put that way. Scale it up to cover all the farm land in the world&#8230; humans will be in a very bad place if they run out of fertilizer. Did the book suggest anything like that&#8230; that population is based on chemicals? I&#8217;ll have to read the book. Like I say, very interesting. Everyone talks about compost and the benefits but this is the first time I heard that compost needs to be a relatively massive annual process.


----------



## CesumPec

>>The scientistâ¦ it was Jan Baptista Van Helmont<<

I read the wiki page, very interesting. So OM doesn't leave the farm in the form of plant material. Hmmmm....very interesting. So where does the OM go? Erosion, leaching? It obviously leaves else much of the farm land would still have rich soil as opposed to just the sand in Florida or the clay in many parts of the US.




> So you donât have to poop out the remains, hehe.


except that it gets quite uncomfortable if you don't. :yuck:



> Good rich top soil is constantly being naturally made. Iâve seen plenty of old brick sidewalks and gravel roads that are 3-4 inches underground just from grass growing through and decomposing for 80 years.


Absolutely, but top soil is destroyed by farming, even no till farming is destructive but at a much lower rate than plowing.



> humans will be in a very bad place if they run out of fertilizer. Did the book suggest anything like thatâ¦ that population is based on chemicals?


No, it didn't go there. I think that based on the relatively small amount of farmland compared to non farm land, there is ample OM produced. It just needs to be moved to the right places and kept there thru sustainable practices.



> Everyone talks about compost and the benefits but this is the first time I heard that compost needs to be a relatively massive annual process.


10 tons annually to maintain an acre at 5+% OM does sound like a lot, but that's one dump truck load. Forerunner does that much before breakfast each day.


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## buck_1one

I had the tree trimming co out my way last year and had them drop me off a load of shredded tree tops. I read someplace that fresh wood should sit for a year before composting. So the pile sat untouched for about a year. Sometimes I would dump some grass cutting, or leaf mulching on top, but that was about it.

So I let the grass get over a foot tall before I could get it cut and decided it was time to start making the compost pile. Over the last week or so I've been cutting the grass and making layers, wood chips on the bottom then grass, chips, grass etc; adding water as I went along. I could not believe how dry the wood chips were in the middle, even with all the rain we have had around here. I doubt the grass will make a long lasting nitrogen base, and will probably "burn" out in short order. 

My truck is down at the moment. I'm hoping my Dad will come help me with a few other things in a few weeks. If he does I'm going to try and get his truck down to the stockyards and get a load of manure and add/mix it in with the pile.

After all that babbling, here is a pic I took of it.


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## Forerunner

Wood chips do rather shed water when piled. 
Mixing the pile with fresh grass clippings or manure would be a good start.
If you don't feel there's enough moisture after that, irrigate the pile a bit with the garden hose.


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## buck_1one

Was I correct in letting the wood chips sit for a year, or is that not true? Also wondering how long the grass will "keep" before it "burns out"? Or, at least, how long should I let the pile sit before turning and adding more nitro?


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## Forerunner

Wood chips or any wood product will rob nitrogen from the soil if incorporated before decomposing. Near pure carbon products could sit for several years and still be nitrogen sponges until you or time satisfy their longing for one another.
If you have enough grass clippings, or manure..... I'd go half and half..... then you shouldn't have to turn or add more. Just mix once and let the pile work for six months to a year.


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## Cascade Failure

Forerunner said:


> How does that mulching mower handle the, say, femur on an ex-wife skeleton ? :shrug:


Sorry, very poor CT divorce humor. Google Richard Crafts if you missed the reference. He was a sick one...


----------



## Forerunner

Did _he_ use a mulching mower ?


----------



## Cascade Failure

A chipper/grinder if I remember correctly.


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## MOgal

I looked that guy up as CF suggested. Grisly, to say the least. When I saw Fargo, I wondered if it would inspire some killer or if it were inspired by an actual murder. Definite eeeewwww!

Just came from the feed store and got several pallet sized pieces of card and paste board they use under feed sacks. I'll just mash down the grass/weeds in part of my garden, lay them out--how nice that they are uniform size and shape--put down mulch then plant some late seedlings through all that. It's composting on a much smaller scale and will rot down nicely over the season without any effort on my part while the crops grow.


----------



## Forerunner

Cardboard is a fantastic weed-suppressing mulch that slow releases carbon and makes worms very happy. A little grass clippings, wood chips or straw over and onlookers are none-the-wiser.


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## MOgal

I save my kraft paper feed sacks all year for the same purpose as the cardboard. It works really well in narrow spaces like the aisles in the hoop house.


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## Forerunner

Now if we could just petition the paper feed sack lobby to remove the plastic linings......


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## trbizwiz

compostable plastic. That way the consumer still gets dry feed, but the bag is fully recycleable


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## Forerunner

Well, waxed paper still works..... and biodegrades quick enough.
But, were they to develop a plastic that reverts to organic materials within 6 months when buried.......


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## Silvercreek Farmer

buck_1one said:


> Was I correct in letting the wood chips sit for a year, or is that not true? Also wondering how long the grass will "keep" before it "burns out"? Or, at least, how long should I let the pile sit before turning and adding more nitro?


I think it is recommended to let them sit for a while before using them as mulch (around bushes trees, ect) because if they have enough green leaves, ect and applied fresh, they can heat to the point where they burn the plants. I also think the sitting lets some of the naturally occuring chemicals (tannins, juglone, pine resins/tars) to leach out or degrade. A year may be a safe bet, but I generally just wait for them to go through the intial heat before I use them as mulch. As Forerunner mentioned, they probably rob some nitrogen from my plants, but so far no severe problems. I think you could mix grass/manure or other nitro with them right away if you were composting them. Just wait for the pile to cool off and if not composted to your liking add more nitro, turn and let it go through another cycle...


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## trbizwiz

They make plastic out of soy oil, surley they could make that organic compostable


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## buck_1one

Matthew Lindsay said:


> ...I think you could mix grass/manure or other nitro with them right away if you were composting them. Just wait for the pile to cool off and if not composted to your liking add more nitro, turn and let it go through another cycle...


After you said that I thought how dumb my question was. When the heat stops the grass is done. dugh!!

Oh well my mind is going in too many directions these days. Rebuilding my F350 and trying to by some land and all my mind keeps saying is "the truck is not going to be done in time."

Thanks


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## sticky_burr

i was refering to how much a worm will MOVE not EAT they dont squeeze to one side of the tunnel to move matter behind them they pass alot thru undigested and carry it up to the surface. i need a experement on the list of to dos, a tall measurement graduated plexi box and if i can fill with GOOD soil/compost to say 1/2 full and compact most old tunnels and voids add worms and see if left in a good enviroment temp moisture A> with no adding food or B> carefuly added food for soil removed this wont give a great number but if the level is 10%(minimum IMO) higher then logically they displaced 10%(of the weight and volume) ok not exact but would give me an idea.. but i'll lose my curiosity soon



CesumPec said:


> Red Worms, _Eisenia fetida_, will eat half their body weight daily. I found one source that said their entire body weight daily but I've seen half used more often.
> 
> I found a bait and compost supplier that said 1 lb of red worms is approx 1000 worms.
> 
> If we go with 1/1000th of a pound and half it's body weight daily, you get to about one-fifth of a pound year. (someone check my math) That doesn't sound like much but in good conditions, the worms will also double in number every 100 days or so.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Matthew Lindsay said:


> Trying to get 100 yards of composted leaves delivered from a Muni dump, I'll let you know how it goes...


:bash: My guy with the truck and the walking bed trailer is turning out to be less than reliable. I just got the phone with his wife, maybe something will get done now!


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## trbizwiz

It is a very busy time of year for those dry bulk haulers. Walking floors are kinda rare too, so I am sure he is quite busy. 
It is always ok to call another hauler if your guy is too busy.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

After reading this thread over a year ago I decided to start composing my slaughter scraps which consisted of buring the scraps from a sheep and pig in about 3 yards of bark mulch obtainted from our local sawmill (last fall). Albeit small, the pile heated for a few weeks then cooled off. I let it sit all winter then proceeded to spread it on my garden this spring only to find that the hides and offal had completely composted but the fat and hair was still intact. I guess I needed a bigger hotter pile or just more time. I decided to go ahead and use my compost, just forking out the uncomposted material (which smelled bad, but not "I am about to lose my lunch" bad) and mixing it with more woodchips for further composting. I am hoping to refine my method this fall by making a dog resistant enclosure near the butcher site for ease of transport...


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## Silvercreek Farmer

trbizwiz said:


> It is a very busy time of year for those dry bulk haulers. Walking floors are kinda rare too, so I am sure he is quite busy.
> It is always ok to call another hauler if your guy is too busy.


Wish I could find another guy, then there would be some price competition!


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## Forerunner

Time and plenty of carbon are the keys to breaking down a carcass.
Also, too much moisture in your base material is worse than not enough, when it comes to rotting critters. My dead livestock doesn't always end up in optimum rotting conditions, but, when they do, it's two to six months to black dirt, near odor free.
If you have any means by which to lightly disassemble the larger animals, that would be to advantage.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Also came across this artical about testing compost for persistant herbicides and thought it may interest the followers of this thread:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/ask-our-experts/simple-compost-test.aspx


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## trbizwiz

If you have a local rock quary they probalby have phone numbers for many bulk haulers. Used to be that hoploads.com was free to post drybulk loads for end dumps walking floors and hoppers. You might check that site out.


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## am1too

I would like to know how to compost wood chips from tree trimmers. I can get probably 300 yrds right off the bat. The guy told nobody wants them. And I going what? I cans ust them in my garden for mulch if nothing else. No garden isn't quite that big. It sure cuts the weeds off.


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## Forerunner

Some clowns have all the luck.

Around here, wood chips are becoming the sought-after commodity that they rightly deserve to be. 
If you've got the space, well..... I'd make a spot for them ALL.
Unlike nitrogen-based compost materials..... you can NEVER stockpile too much carbon.
Carbon will always break down over time..... and it will take time.
I would build the carbon (wood chip) stock pile and dip out of it every time some nitrogen material came available. Mix wood chips about half and half with fresh grass clippings, animal manure, compost toilet contents, dead critters, or whatever nitrogen-based material have you. Then cover the compost pile with six inches or so of wood chips to lock in odors, nitrogen and heat, and let it rot for a year.
Wood chips take a little more time than sawdust to completely break down.

Mulching with chips is a good thing. I like to use them, pretty thick-like, for my garden paths and around my fruit trees. Just don't mix them in to the dirt you're gardening with this year.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Some clowns have all the luck.
> 
> Around here, wood chips are becoming the sought-after commodity that they rightly deserve to be.
> If you've got the space, well..... I'd make a spot for them ALL.
> Unlike nitrogen-based compost materials..... you can NEVER stockpile too much carbon.
> Carbon will always break down over time..... and it will take time.
> I would build the carbon (wood chip) stock pile and dip out of it every time some nitrogen material came available. Mix wood chips about half and half with fresh grass clippings, animal manure, compost toilet contents, dead critters, or whatever nitrogen-based material have you. Then cover the compost pile with six inches or so of wood chips to lock in odors, nitrogen and heat, and let it rot for a year.
> Wood chips take a little more time than sawdust to completely break down.
> 
> Mulching with chips is a good thing. I like to use them, pretty thick-like, for my garden paths and around my fruit trees. Just don't mix them in to the dirt you're gardening with this year.


 Thanks. I can get all I can haul pre mixed grass and ground up yard waste too. Picked up 12 yards of that and it was fairly warm. I'm sure going to stock pile the stuff.


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## trbizwiz

Wow now I am envious


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Matthew Lindsay said:


> :bash: My guy with the truck and the walking bed trailer is turning out to be less than reliable. I just got off the phone with his wife, maybe something will get done now!


Just called my guy again. He promised to get it to me tomorrow or Friday. He has never actually promised a date before. We will see...


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## trbizwiz

poultry litter guys are like that around here. It took me a month to get litter spread in February


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Matthew Lindsay said:


> Just called my guy again. He promised to get it to me tomorrow or Friday. He has never actually promised a date before. We will see...


Not hide nor hair... Also gave 3 tree companies a call back that promised me wood chips 6+ weeks ago that still haven't materialized. Kinda hard to force the subject when you are begging them for free! Oh well. Scored a little load of horse manure. It was aged a bit, so I went ahead and just spread it on the pasture. Going back tomorrow to get another load or two...


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

So do you get one of those nice young men with every load??


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Some clowns have all the luck.
> 
> Around here, wood chips are becoming the sought-after commodity that they rightly deserve to be.
> If you've got the space, well..... I'd make a spot for them ALL.
> Unlike nitrogen-based compost materials..... you can NEVER stockpile too much carbon.
> Carbon will always break down over time..... and it will take time.
> I would build the carbon (wood chip) stock pile and dip out of it every time some nitrogen material came available. Mix wood chips about half and half with fresh grass clippings, animal manure, compost toilet contents, dead critters, or whatever nitrogen-based material have you. Then cover the compost pile with six inches or so of wood chips to lock in odors, nitrogen and heat, and let it rot for a year.
> Wood chips take a little more time than sawdust to completely break down.
> 
> Mulching with chips is a good thing. I like to use them, pretty thick-like, for my garden paths and around my fruit trees. Just don't mix them in to the dirt you're gardening with this year.


Would you seperate the chips say if you had some with lots of green stuff in them from say a green pile of chips? I noticed in my old pile of wood chips that it turned to wet brown lumps after a year or two. I also had something growing in it with purple roots and white nodules. Probably some kind of mold. Did have a worm or two in it.

I did notice that chips without green material was still chips and almost powder dry in pockets within the plie.


----------



## Forerunner

Don't worry about those molds and fungi....they are preliminary wood chip decomposers.... For just stockpiling the chips, don't worry about how they come, but when you build the piles, do pay attention to the ratios and moisture levels.

jlrbhjmnc....... thank you for your woman's touch to the thread. 

Matthew....hang in there and keep haulin' what you can. 
....and, for heaven's sake, give that boy a pitch fork.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Don't worry about those molds and fungi....they are preliminary wood chip decomposers.... For just stockpiling the chips, don't worry about how they come, but when you build the piles, do pay attention to the ratios and moisture levels.
> 
> jlrbhjmnc....... thank you for your woman's touch to the thread.
> 
> Matthew....hang in there and keep haulin' what you can.
> ....and, for heaven's sake, give that boy a pitch fork.


It would make a great birthday gift.


----------



## Lloyd J.

I'm going to start making my own using this and hopefully I can get people from town to bring their branches and trees out to the farm. We have scheduled a drop off for every second Saturday starting in August. And then I also have all the pruning from the orchard as well.

We'll see how it turns out.

Lloyd


----------



## trbizwiz

I just lost a weened bottle calf today. Coccidiosis. So i am going to try composting my first calf. I have access to free saw dust. I figure I'll put down a 4 inch layer of saw dust then the calf then the remainder of a pickup truck load of saw dust. I'll give it a year then see what came of the poor little guy. I have some bokashi buckets that need emptied so I'll add that for good measure. 
Here's to hoping I am not building another pile tomorrow. The vet came out and medicated the other sick one. A third one we could not catch, but he did not appear sick yet. I am medicating the water so hopefully I wont be adding any more green to my new pile.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Awesome pile size calculator!

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sOX2DQ&usg=AFQjCNH7BBh6SBbQubdGBouaNKBxWgyJ1w


----------



## trbizwiz

that is cool


----------



## trbizwiz

Well here are some pics of my new pile. Wish it was a happy deal 
This is a picture of about 10 inches of saw dust on the calf and some fermented bokashi on top of that










This is the finished pile about 3 feet tall. 








I did open the calf to aide in composting speed. My 4 year old definitely had questions. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## scpankow

So, I am a newbie composter. I have two piles, one is my starter and one is my finisher. I raise rabbits so most of the material is rabbit manure, hay and spilled pellets, along with food stuff and yard clippings. It seems to be working ok, but I don't think it is heating like yours do. I do turn them occasionally, since the hay tends to clump together and not want to compost. It has been really dry here as well. Any advice?

Thanks,
Shannon


----------



## Forerunner

Hello Shannon.

To heat properly, a compost pile needs mass, say, the equivalent of two pickup loads ...proper moisture is very important, as well--moist, but not wet.
From your list of components, you may be nitrogen-rich, which will also retard decomposition and heating. To raise your carbon level, mix in more dry straw, dry grass clippings or any wood product such as sawdust, shredded bark or wood chips. Cardboard works, too.
If the pile is balanced and of proper moisture, there's no need to turn it.
Just let it break down for several months and use it when it's black, crumbly and odor free.


----------



## SamanthaB

Well mine was just drying out so I moved it to a location that easier to reach with a hose and have been hosing it down about once a week I really think I need to do it twice a week though, as dry and windy as it is. Anyway, I was digging around in it last night at toward the ground in the middle and, tada! HEAT! I squealed with delight so loud I probably scared the neighbors! It was just a little bit of heat but I was very encouraged.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

A pile that dries out too fast from the wind may benefit from a tarp, maybe with just a few openings around the edges to allow air exchange, although it will keep the rain out too...

It might have been in this thread (I read so much about composting, I don't even remember where I read things anymore) but somewhere somebody suggested a pile roughly 8 ft wide x 8 ft long x 4 ft high was a good size to get a pile to the point were it was self insulating and would maintain heat and moisture. Or roughly a square made out of 8 pallets with 2 on each side.


----------



## SamanthaB

Not a bad idea, the tarp. They don't expect us to recieve any rain until September so that shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Re Shannon's question: I had success with a pile the size of one pickup load. We covered it with cardboard to help keep it damp in the hot summer sun. At one point we had access to a lot of lawn trimmings from around the area and boy, did it ever heat up! We were a tad short on carbon in that pile and it smelled a little bit, but not bad. You'll figure it out.


----------



## scpankow

Forerunner said:


> Hello Shannon.
> 
> To heat properly, a compost pile needs mass, say, the equivalent of two pickup loads


So, should I combine the two into one larger pile?



> proper moisture is very important, as well--moist, but not wet.


Yes, we have been very dry...when I turned it there was not a whole lot of moisture in some parts, in fact it was dry in a few spots.



> From your list of components, you may be nitrogen-rich, which will also retard decomposition and heating. To raise your carbon level, mix in more dry straw, dry grass clippings or any wood product such as sawdust, shredded bark or wood chips. Cardboard works, too.


Ok, i do have some dried hay that I put to the side as I did not want to overwhelm the pile with too much. Maybe I have not been putting enough!



> If the pile is balanced and of proper moisture, there's no need to turn it. Just let it break down for several months and use it when it's black, crumbly and odor free.


Thank goodness! It is quite a chore to turn it, let me tell you! LOL Ok, I will try those things and see how it goes. Thanks so much!

Shannon


----------



## stormrider27

I just got done reading the whole thread and I must say very motivational. One question: is it safe to compost sawdust from pressure treated lumber? I know that its safe to use the stuff in raised beds so I don't really see an issue plus the heat will cook off a lot but better to ask the pros.

TIA
Storm


----------



## Forerunner

scpankow said:


> So, should I combine the two into one larger pile?
> Shannon


Yup. I sure would. Add that dry hay in increments and water the pile as you build it. I can smell that pile wanting to steam, already.



stormrider27 said:


> I just got done reading the whole thread and I must say very motivational. One question: is it safe to compost sawdust from pressure treated lumber? I know that its safe to use the stuff in raised beds so I don't really see an issue plus the heat will cook off a lot but better to ask the pros.
> TIA
> Storm


I wouldn't go out of my way to find pressure treated sawdust for my piles, but if I had the stuff, compost is how I'd get rid of it.
If you've just got a couple five gallon buckets full, and a couple pick up trucks worth of compost, or more, mix it well and forget about it.
If you have a lot of that sawdust, then you might want to mix it with a good nitrogen source and then let that pile sit, cooking hot as long as it can, and then use it on something besides food plots.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

stormrider27 said:


> I just got done reading the whole thread and I must say very motivational. One question: is it safe to compost sawdust from pressure treated lumber? I know that its safe to use the stuff in raised beds so I don't really see an issue plus the heat will cook off a lot but better to ask the pros.
> 
> TIA
> Storm


I think I would bag it and send it to the landfill. I appreciate Forerunners faith in soil/compost microbes ability to neutralize most of the nasty stuff we come up with (my wife is an environmental scientist and did research on microbes ability to digest creosote for her master's thesis!), and "dilution is the solution" is the answer in many cases for chemical contamination. But this stuff was specifically designed to kill compost microbes. I wouldn't do it just for the sake of a little carbon...

Our local wastewater treatment plant offers cheap compost (delivered too!)made from sewage sludge and sawdust, but after doing a little research on heavy metal accumulation and endocrine disrupting hormones I just can't bring myself to buy any...

The old wood treatment stuff:

CCA works by making the wood poisonous to the fungi and insects that use it as a food source. The coppor component of CCA is the main toxin for fungi, and arsenic poisons the few species that are copper-tolerant. Insect suchs as termites are poisoned by the arsenic that is digested out of the treated wood they feed upon.

The new wood treatment stuff:

http://www.ufpi.com/literature/copperazolesafe-334.pdf


----------



## stormrider27

Forerunner and M Lindsay;

Thanks for the replies. I don't have a lot of the sawdust. I use landscape timbers for my rough carpentry projects; I rip them down to size on my table saw. When I do I usually get about 1 gallon or so of sawdust I was burning it but I don't have a whole lot of free sources for carbon. 

Forerunner: besides "Joseph Jenkins:The Humanure Handbook: A Guide to Composting Human Manure" What other books do you recommend as essential reading? Not just for composting but homesteading as well.

Tia 
Storm


----------



## Forerunner

_Rodales Complete Book of Composting_, old, unabridged version.
Carla Emery's _Encyclopedia of Country Living_

There are others mentioned throughout this thread, but those two should get you well on your way.


----------



## trbizwiz

You should be able to get those books from you local library. I got rhodales from mine.


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## sheshewill

Forerunner, I have to say that what you are doing is downright awesome. After living in many different states and having to deal with many different soil types and conditions we now are living on sand. Large amounts of sandstone is in the ground we live on, 20 acres of it. I inherited The Complete Book of Composting 8th printing which was purchased in 1971, from my grandmother when she passed away. I have read through this book and keep it at the ready for any questions that I might have. The cover is getting rather worn. But, until I found this blog I really did not quite have the gumption to really get going. I had made small compost piles in the past to add to this poor soil and sheet composted everything I could into our garden. 3 years later our garden still needs alot of amending. With the addition of goats and sheep to our farm we now have enough manure loaded sawdust bedding to make compost that will actually make a noticable difference in the garden. Our chickens just weren't doing their part. We also have available to us free sawdust that we use for bedding and compost making. 

This link http://www.rain.org/global-garden/soil-types-and-testing.htm will help those who are unsure of what type of soil they have and if the soil needs amending with compost. When I tested my soil, I understood why my garden was doing so poorly. 

I have my husband reading your blog now and he is ready to go off grid. I have him also reading about Jean Pain. 
Thanks again your doing a great job, and hopefully within the next few years our garden will be looking as good as yours.


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## Forerunner

Thank you, Sheshewill, for the kind sentiments.
Being from Kentucky and all, you might contact my good friend Mudburn and compare notes and what-have-you. 
For myself, I know my appreciation for like-minded and like work-ethic grows by leaps and bounds as time passes.....


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## Rusty'sDog

I have mixed emotions about the "Encyclopedia of Country Living". It is a great book, and deserves a spot on every homesteader's book shelf...BUT, it is not an encyclopedia. The information within is vast, much of which is covered nowhere else, but it is in no way organized...it has been added to, revised and what-not, but never put into an "encyclopedia" format (alphabetized). To me, it is more of something I would curl up with around a wood fire on a cold winter night and just enjoy all of the wisdom than to use as a reference book. If there were an e-book version available, I would probably buy it, just so I could easily "search" it. IMHO, it should be renamed "The Hodge Podge of Country Living".


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## Trisha in WA

I have a question about spreading my compost pile. I dug a good shovel depth into it and it isn't done at that depth. I am having a friend come out later with his tractor to turn it, but I really need to get it spread out before the end of summer. Would it be OK to spread on my pasture or would it slow the composting process so much that it would do more "harm" than good. 
As a reminder, in my pile is mostly cow manure and old hay...there is rabbit, horse and chicken manure and some sawdust in there too, but that all makes up far less than even half of the pile. I know that my pile is too low on carbon and is very likely why it is composting at a very slow rate. I am working on acquiring a couple sources of sawdust from the portable saw mills here, but that is a slow process at this time.


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## Forerunner

Trisha....if you don't plan to plant in that not-quite-yet-perfect compost this year, then spreading it now and incorporating it into the soil will do no harm.
If you plan to spread it without tilling it in, try to spread it before a rain so that it won't spend too much time in the sun before the nutrients can be naturally washed into the soil, somewhat.
I'd be more concerned about spreading my hard-earned richness and leaving it lay in the sun than I would spreading it just a little undigested and tilling it in.
Best option would be to disc or till it in and then plant a cover crop to keep the sun off and utilize that sun to build even more carbon into your soil.
Disc that crop in this fall and then plant another cover for winter, such as winter wheat or rye.

What are your plans for that soil for the remainder of the year ?


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## Trisha in WA

It's a cow pasture that I am trying to improve. This particular area is a high spot that is the driest spot in the pasture and seems to have pretty bad soil. I am hoping to top dress it to improve the soil for next year. I do intensive grazing and rotating (to the current best of my ability) and I know that will improve soil fertility, but I have this compost pile from barn cleaning and I was hoping to use it for this. I have another pile that I am planning to use next spring in my (what will be) new expanded garden.


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## Forerunner

Can you disc or till the stuff you're wanting to spread now on that old bald spot ?
Or are you limited to just spreading it up there ?


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## Trisha in WA

Unfortunately I don't have access to a disc or tiller. So I have to just spread (by hand out of the back of the pick up actually). Though it is pretty poor soil, it still is growing grass (and weeds) just not as good as areas that have been nicely watered and fertilized by the annual pond runoff.


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## Forerunner

Were that my bald spot..... and I had no tillage..... I would make a compost pile at the very top of that bald spot and let rainfall leach the nutrients down onto the surrounding pasture, for a long, long time....especially since you are only attempting to improve the pasture and not grow a crop.
If you build the pile out there, and leave it, it will break down completely, slowly level itself into the pasture, and feed the pasture for a long, long time without mechanical spreading.
Loading, hauling and repiling the material to that location will be a thorough turning, as well, which, though isn't necessary, does speed up and encourage thorough composting.


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## Trisha in WA

BEAUTIFUL! I can do that! And as a side bonus, it gets the current "unsightly" (to the city owners) pile to a more out of sight location. 
Thank you! I knew you would have some good advice. 
Composting on this slightly larger scale with a (currently) much smaller garden is out of my experience. Plus wanting to add it to pasture is something I have never done...since all my compost has always gone into my garden. But I am really looking forward to some beautiful grass out in that pasture to feed my cows.
OK now I am getting excited about the possibilities...especially once I get the sawdust I so desperately need.


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## SueMc

I have access to a large amt. of mostly pine(other shredded wood mixed in), finished compost. I've already picked up a truck load to use around blueberries, currents, etc. My question is, can I use this product on my veg garden in large amounts? I would love to take the grain truck and load up but don't want to put huge amts. down if it will deplete the garden of other nutrients. I do have a very large horse manure/leaves pile going but the finished wood compost is very tempting.
Thanks!


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## Forerunner

I'd mix it in with what you've got, as you have enough nitrogen rich material to blend, and be stockpiling the rest.
That finished pine compost would make awesome tater mulch and garden paths....
I'd be using it liberally under my fruit trees, as well....pulled back a couple feet from the trunk of each.

Just how aged (months....years ?) is this material ?


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## SueMc

Forerunner said:


> Just how aged (months....years ?) is this material ?


I'm not sure without asking. He has it in different stages of compost. The finished stuff looks like black, slightly fibrous (not the right word) soil. We planted a 30ish tree orchard this spring and I'm going to get enough to mulch that area well. I will definitely get enough to mix with the manure, plus extra. We have a big chipper and a bunch of downed trees so make alot of path chips ourselves. I'm just trying to improve my year old garden as fast as I can.
Thanks for the advice.


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## Forerunner

Wow!

Sounds ambitious.

I like ambitious.


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## SueMc

Forerunner said:


> Wow!
> 
> Sounds ambitious.
> 
> I like ambitious.


When I said "mulch that area well" I meant around the trees. The rest is in grass/white clover. So not as ambitious as it sounded!


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## Our Little Farm

My pigs have been turning my compost for me. 
Actually its part of my deep bedding in my barn that we had for the sheep. It was about a foot or two deep and they have done a wonderful job! Now it will be easy to rake out and use.

OLF


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## Trisha in WA

Pigs are FANTASTIC compost turners. That's what I used at our other place. I put the compost pile at alternating ends of the garden each year. We would fence the pigs into the appropriate end of the garden and let them turn it and spread it out on that end. Then next year do the same at the opposite end with a new batch of pigs. Best way to make bacon and good soil at the same time!!!


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## southfarms

Forerunner and all,

Thank you for the extreme sharing of information. This thread has given me so much to think about. I have already read 10 acres enough and am just starting Rodales book on composting. Maybe one day I'll get the guts to break away from "big ag" and follow in y'alls footsteps. Thanks again!


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## am1too

How does sheet composting work?l


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## Forerunner

It's just a lighter version than, say, wool comforter composting.

Sheet compost in the summer months.
Wool comforter compost in the winter.


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## MOgal

Oh, Forerunner! 

GROAN


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> It's just a lighter version than, say, wool comforter composting.
> 
> Sheet compost in the summer months.
> Wool comforter compost in the winter.


wisecracker the 4th was already a couple weeks ago so I guess firecrackers already made all the noise.
But I love your humor. Hey I do have a nice pile of wood chips.


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## Forerunner

In my defense.......... 

Sheet composting is incorporating varying amounts of what would otherwise be perfectly compostable material into the soil before that material is decomposed.
That method works, if approached in moderation.
_However_, if one chooses to _sheet_ compost right before planting, a thin layer of material is recommended for the fact that you are going to disturb the balance of nutrients in the soil.
So, if one wanted to incorporate larger amounts--a thicker layer--of material, it would be best to do so in the fall, after harvesting, so that the material had more time to mellow with the soil, thus wool comforter composting is best done in the fall and winter. 

I prefer to till my sheet or wool comforter compost material in or use a disc and get serious, but there is great value, especially as pertains to the garden, in laying on a thick mulch in late spring and tilling that in come harvest time.

Your wood chips would make great animal bedding, garden paths, or compost base.
Use them sparingly as mulch until or unless they are already turning pretty dark with age. They're nitrogen suckers if incorporated directly into the soil.....until they are completely broken down.


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## 10kids

We sheet composted with cardboard around our fruit trees late last fall, laid the cardboard on top of the grass, threw a layer of home brew compost on with some wood chips on top of that. The soil results this spring was nothing short of black gold, no sign of anything resembling cardboard. It works very well in areas where we want to nurture the soil without tearing up the grass. That said, I would not do it in my garden. We prefer brewing and spreading compost...much of which we learned right here from Forerunner. It would be interesting to know how many different states have The Forerunner Compost Revolution brewing...Washington is in and accounted for!


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## Trisha in WA

10kids said:


> It would be interesting to know how many different states have The Forerunner Compost Revolution brewing...Washington is in and accounted for!


Twice!
10kids are you on the east side or west side of the state? Seems like our fairly hot dry summers and VERY cold dry winters on the east side don't like to make good compost. My compost on the west side did so much better than the one here.


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## 10kids

Trisha, we are on the east side, SE area, foothills of the Blue Mountains. We have always composted, but it was like kindergarten compost compared to Forerunner's master's degree compost. After reading his writings, we eagerly dove into a larger set up. Occasionally, if she seems to be drying out, we spray her down a little.


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## dhmjr

Great thread!!! I only have access to the computer during work hours (sssshhhhhhhh) and have been reading and copying and repeat. I still have several hours of back reading to do but had a quick question. One branch of my company is poultry related and they're trying to find a more humane way to kill chickens and turkeys that meets the fda requirements. We're having a trial run tomorrow. I have access to all the old hay/straw I want immediately, but will have to wait till the weekend to make a sawdust or manure run. While we are going to cut the good meat from the birds, there will be several, several 55 gal drums of parts left over.
Guess my question is should I just layer the parts with the hay or just wait till next time? I don't want to leave those parts just lying in the open, more or less, till the weekend.
This may have already been asked and I just haven't read that far yet. Thanks in advance for any help. I know nothing...........but am trying to learn.


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## trbizwiz

In this heat parts will compost quite fast if carbon is adequate.


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## Forerunner

Welcome, Dhmjr.

(I just love inexplicable acronyms.  )

Definitely layer those bird parts with your straw/hay and cover the pile with manure when you get it in.
That will be one nutrient rich pile.


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## dhmjr

Thanks!!! Moved into a shack/cabin my great grandfather built around 1900 and slowly going broke trying to remodel/repair it. There's not a square corner in it. Would have been much, much cheaper to just start from scratch but there's just too much history. I'm clearing the land where he and later, my grandfather had their gardens but the ground there hasn't been worked in over 25-30 years. Hopefully in a year or so, I'll get to the point where I can disk and till it up. Trying to put together a pile or two or three to go on it.

Anyways, thanks again for all this useful knowledge!!


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## trbizwiz

compost on top of the area you want to garden on. It will soften the ground and get earthworm activity going like crazy. The heat should help with the vegetation in that area like weeds, and the nutrients will leach right where you need them. Then you cna spread adn plow and you have an instant magic garden, instantly in a year!


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## dhmjr

That's what I'm doing, or rather, starting. All the land is hilly around here. I've cleared the corner area on a upper slope and that's where I've started a pile. In my small mind I was thinking the pile needed to be uphill of the garden if given the choice. Not only will it "leak" or spread naturally downhill, it'll be easier to move downhill later on with (future) equipment. (I'm saving up for a tractor.) 
Worms are everywhere around here. You can rake a spot under any pine tree and collect a jar full.


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## Forerunner

My experience is that, you may push your finished piles where you will, spreading and working in as you go...... but you won't have green anywhere like you'll have it right where that pile sat while decomposing. Amazing what that compost tea will do for a patch of ground. If possible, rip, disc or till on the downhill side of the pile to help absorb the runoff rather than letting it wash away unrestrained during rains.

I always prefer to have my piles above the gardens and fields just for the purpose of letting gravity work for me.


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## dhmjr

That's a good idea! I kinda feel like that character Bill Murray played in that old movie, "What About Bob" when he said, "Gimme, gimme, gimme, I need, I need, I need." Thanks again for the info!!


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## trbizwiz

Iy you got lots of worms, your gorund may be very organic already. Worms like to move where they are most comfortable.


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## Joe Prepper

Wow, what a thread!

There is so much info here on composting it begs the question "Why is this not a seperate sub-forum"? Wth all that Forerunner seems to be doing on his homestead, I can imagine he might not have time to moderate, but has anyone mentioned this in the past? I think composting/replenishing the land is probably one of the most important things we as homesteaders can do. 

Sorry if this has been mentioned, or is out of place.


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## trbizwiz

The nice thing about it being here is the extra traffic. I think it is a sticky so it is almost a sub forum.


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## InvalidID

Just wanted to give a shout out to you Forerunner. Since reading this thread, and the others, my garden is in fantastic shape. I have summer squash taller than anyone around, my spinach went in a month earlier than anyone around and produced longer, and my cuke vines look more like pumpkin vines!

The land up here was all timber land, used hard and rained out. Slowly it's becoming more productive than the chemical farmers in the area. Thanks!


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## Forerunner

Thank you for the report and encouragement.

I'd like to say that I've slowed down a little this year and that this heat has temporarily put even further damper on my composting...... but those dozen big piles up in the field _that showed up just since I harvested my wheat crop_ would be giggling into their hands if I did.

Suffice it to say that, this fall, I'll be spreading hundreds more tons, as usual. :sob:


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## Freya

Forerunner said:


> Suffice it to say that, this fall, I'll be spreading hundreds more tons, as usual. :sob:



:grouphug: 






:grin:


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## dhmjr

I came back to confess something. I saw where Forerunner put those dead animals in his piles but honestly, did not believe it was odor free. I mean, there was no way you couldn't smell that. I dumped those chicken, hog, and sheep parts (we cut all the good meat out) and I covered them, thinking all along, I'll be smelling this later or the dogs will certainly dig it all up. 

So I layered those parts with old straw and about 3 tons of sawdust/mulch and after roughly two weeks, I'm glad to report I can't smell a thing. Dogs have not even bothered to dig near the pile. I have a cat that has laid claim to it. Must be some feline "king of the hill" thing but that's all.

I'm still hunting down some good barnyard manure. Maybe this weekend...

I did get the company I work for to start saving all the coffee grounds. They go through an average of 6-7 pots a day at each of the three offices. I've been collecting all that in a 5 gallon bucket when I leave for the day.


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## Studhauler

Hello Everybody,

I read the whole thing, mostly at work. Thank you tax payers for letting me use my time this way. I am sure I missed some the details. I told my wife I was going to bring home a pick-up load of manure. All she said was "oh." Then I told her we are going to compost it with this falls leaves from the yard, and it was for the garden she wants to put in next spring. Now she is excited!

I think I can get a heaping pick-up load of green grass clipping delivered every week for free. This would be N, correct? Dead leaves this fall would be C? I can shovel all the dead leafs I want from the township yard-waste pile and haul them home.

Using CesumPec's suggestion that a 25' x 25' garden needs about a ton (dry weight) of OM the first year, I am sure I can get that much. I am not quite so sure that 10 tons (wet) of input wi


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## Forerunner

Tsk, tsk, and for shame....... doubting _me_, of all people ?

Just yesterday I went to the sale barn to pick up a couple trailer loads.
In this deliciously hot weather, the occasional weak animal kicks off a little early, and they had two. In this deliciously hot weather, a dead beef carcass gets right on the ball stinking and decomposing. Just three days in, the 1800 pound bull carcass came out of their manure bin in three stringy, maggot-infested pieces....

Got it buried in the load....made the fragrance much more pleasant for the ride home.
Got it home and buried in a big pile..... problem solved.

Carbon is your friend. 


Welcome aboard, Cody. Glad to be of service. The above admonition and assurance is for Dhmjr, of course.


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## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> Hello Everybody,
> 
> I read the whole thing, mostly at work. Thank you tax payer for letting me use my time this way. I am sure I missed some the details. I told my wife I was going to bring home a pick-up load of manure. All she said was "oh." Then I told her we are going to compost it with this falls leaves from the yard, and it was for the garden she wants to put in next spring. Now she is excited!
> 
> I think I can get a heaping pick-up load of green grass clipping delivered every week for free. This would be N, correct? Dead leaves this fall would be C? I can shovel all the dead leafs I want from the township yard-waste pile and haul them home.
> 
> Using CesumPec's suggestion that a 25' x 25' garden needs about a ton (dry weight) of OM the first year, I am sure I can get that much. I am not quite so sure that 10 tons (wet) of input will equal 1 ton of OM (dry) output. That just seem like allot of water.
> 
> I may not be abel to actually get the pile built until second week of October. The question is; can it compost down in time to rototill it into the ground by planting time next spring? Note: we live in central Minnesota. It will be composted in the exact spot where she wants her garden.
> 
> We also have been dumping mostly leaves and some green grass clippings for many years on one end of an earthen pit or trough. This trough is decades old, as it was part of the farm that used to neighbor us. I found the fender and front axel of a 1930-ish car in there, but that is the only trash. Every spring this trough floods, so I don't think it has composted like the discussion here talks about. The end that hasn't had the grass and leaves dumped on it, is beautiful black gold. This trough is 100% shaded. Is it possible to compost in it?
> 
> Looking North
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6009835982/
> 
> 
> Looking South
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6009327481/
> 
> What I would really like to do with the trough is fill it up and let the woods around it take it over. Fill it so water don't set in it any longer than spring thaw, so it isn't a mosquito breading ground.
> 
> Thank you Forerunner, Mudburn, et al for all the knowledge I have gained.
> 
> Cody


Your garden compost pile should break down enough by spring, especially if built with good balance and adequate moisture, big enough to heat well.
I don't know about the trough you speak of..... flooded material goes anaerobic and just ferments. Takes years for decomposition to get underway.
I'd fill that with clay or sand and compost/garden over top of it.


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## Mickey

Forerunner,
Down in the gardening forum there's alot of posts about plants not bearing because of the heat. For instance there's a thread right now about folks bean plants producing lots of blossoms, but not getting any beans. Have you seen this in your gardens?


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## Forerunner

No, I have not.

My heat-loving plants got a slow start due to the cold, wet spring, but the heat hasn't had much negative effect here, save on my own degree of ambition.


----------



## NewGround

Gee Forerunner I remember reading this whole thread a while back (new post since then need catching up on) but I had forgotten about it for a while. This is a true inspiration, thank you...


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## willow_girl

> I'm still hunting down some good barnyard manure. Maybe this weekend...


If you're anywhere near 15050, I can fix you up!


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## Trisha in WA

OK I am having trouble and I have a question. I have a big compost pile that is severely lacking in carbon. It's mostly cow manure and horse manure with maybe 15% hay and straw. I don't have ready access to carbon materials right now, at least not without great expense. I am moving the pile to an upper pasture section that is very poor. But this is really raw stuff, so I am piling it up again so that hopefully it will eventually break down. Will this pile eventually break down and how long should it take?
For this winter I will not be using straw, but by then I'll be able to get a load of shavings. I was really unhappy with how the straw didn't break down and didn't really soak up the urine like I needed it to. I had a small load of sawdust and it froze solid while undercover and not having been spread out in the stall yet. Hoping that won't happen with shavings.


----------



## CesumPec

Trisha in WA said:


> OK I am having trouble and I have a question. I have a big compost pile that is severely lacking in carbon. It's mostly cow manure and horse manure with maybe 15% hay and straw. I don't have ready access to carbon materials right now, at least not without great expense. I am moving the pile to an upper pasture section that is very poor. But this is really raw stuff, so I am piling it up again so that hopefully it will eventually break down. Will this pile eventually break down and how long should it take?


I found sites that differ on horse manure's C:N ratio. One said it was about 15:1 and the other said it was a perfect 30:1. Cow was listed at 15 - 19:1. 

Without more carbon, it could take a couple of years or more for the pile to reduce. Any C you add will speed this up but you probably need to double the size of the pile to get to about a 6 month completed process.


----------



## Forerunner

The process of moving/turning the pile does dry the material slightly, which releases some excess N as well. Has it been wet or dry in your neck of Washington ?

Repositioning that pile on poor ground will be a huge plus regardless of how long it takes to break down. The nutrients leached into the soil out of that pile will be enjoyed long after the pain of watching the pile decompose slowly is forgotten.


----------



## Trisha in WA

Forerunner said:


> Repositioning that pile on poor ground will be a huge plus regardless of how long it takes to break down. The nutrients leached into the soil out of that pile will be enjoyed long after the pain of watching the pile decompose slowly is forgotten.


This was my hope. 
I live on the dry side of Washington (east of the Cascades), but we had a very wet spring. The pile was dry for the first maybe 6 inches then wet inside...I assume both from rain and from the naturally heavy wet cow manure.
Living on this side of the mountains continues to have a learning curve. I'll get it eventually, but it will take some time. Things just are not the same in the high mountain desert as they are in the low lush rainy areas. Just have to learn "what" we need to adjust to make our efforts pay off.
Thank you Forerunner for your comments.


----------



## Forerunner

Many times I have piled nearly pure, raw, wet manure in the difficult winter months, only to mix in the carbon when weather and resource permits in later spring.
Just mixing in that dry outer layer does wonders to balance C/N and rekindle the love for the microbes within. Use your dry weather thus.....
Make your winter wet piles cone shaped to facilitate better drainage from within and without. When you do build piles in the drier season, level off the top or even concave it to make a funnel for what moisture does come available.


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## JuliaAnn

I've been slowly reading through this thread to glean information on what green/nitrogen materials I can use. We are in exceptional drought status, heard on the local news yesterday this area has not seen this level of drought since 1917. Green materials are basically not to be had. Grass, even when watered, is not growing well. Where not watered, it's dead. Literally, dead--you can pick it up as if it's just piles of dry grass laying on top of the ground. I have only mowed three times this year.

No grass clippings, no juicy green stalks of elderberry, no Maximillian sunflower clumps, no clumps of johnson grass, no green weeds, cactus, leaves, or grasses of any sort, period. And as it's mid August and the drought predicted to go through the end of the winter, no green materials will be coming. 

I have carbon materials now--- trees and understory trees/shrubs have been shedding leaves and pine needles and aborting their fruit since early June, approximately. Lots of dead twigs, limbs and some small branches. Lots of dead herbaceous plant stalks. 

We dont' compost our food scraps or garden waste because that goes to feed the poulltry, which in turn feed us. So no green compostable materials from that source.

Trying my best to come up with green, nitrogen materials I can get my hands on to make compost with. 

One year I threw several handfuls of oats on top of a large pile of leaves and twigs, watered well, and the oats actually sprouted and grew up through the pile and added some green material. But I need more green material than that's going to give me.


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## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> Your garden compost pile should break down enough by spring, especially if built with good balance and adequate moisture, big enough to heat well.


What would a good balance of green grass clippings and dry leaves be? How many pick-up truck loads of leaves to one pick-up truck load of grass? How about leaves to cow manure? Adequate moisture will not be a problem. 

Thanks


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## Forerunner

Studhauler...... half and half on both combinations. Mixing all three would be even better, for the bacterial content that manure will enhance in your pile.

Julia, you may have to forgo greens, but mixing that chicken manure with your browns, and watering the pile with whatever you can spare (graywater?), will take you as far as you can go while you're that dry out there.
If I were in your predicament, I'd sure be considering a sawdust toilet to both conserve water and enhance the composting operation.
I'd also be switching to all natural soaps and using my wash/rinse water for compost and irrigation.


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## Studhauler

Thanks Forerunner, I am planning on making one pile with one load of manure and several loads of grass clippings, mixed with loads of leaves.


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## buck_1one

I went down to the town stables to see if they had any manure. Kid there said they only have a couple of horses stabled but I could have all I wanted if there was any in the pile. So I cleaned them out. While not as much as some of you guys bring in on one load, my bed was full. That is 8' wide 9.5' long and 2' deep, or 5.6...cubic yards. Here is a pic of the truck when I got home (shameless plug of my new truck:nanner.










That was all loaded and unloaded by hand...well fork and shovel. The truck does not have a dump on it...yet, and by the time the caretaker came home (he has a bobcat) I had loaded all they had.

I was going to get a pic of it (the pile) once unloaded, but I forgot to. The young man who lives next to me, whom I've known sense he was a little boy, stopped by and offered to help unload it. Before I knew it the truck was unloaded, pile watered down, and covered.

It's a mixture of saw dust, hay, and poo; in that order.

Not bad for a few hours work!!


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## missyann100

8/18/2011 12:16 am - I have been reading this like its a novel. There are so many pieces! Its awesome! I think it might take me a couple days to read all of this. I am excited to do so. As I am reading I can't help but wonder if Forerunner hasn't turned this into a book yet? Have you gotten a call from Nat Geo? Dirty Jobs? I can't wait to read on. I had to create a document for my desktop named "Where I left off" Thanks great reading and awesome story. Sorry to hear about your first wife. Like a good book do you ever say what happened to her? Maybe you should leave that to the real book. Its almost as good as Bridges of Madison County.  Well I think it is. Thanks!


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## InvalidID

I finally found a composting program to rival Forerunner, though it likely comes in a close second only.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/08/portland_gets_ready_to_roll_ou.html


----------



## buck_1one

I forgot to mention that I communed with the pile when I picked it up and I think Digger communed with it after it was unloaded.:happy2: Figured that would make Forerunner happy,lol.

Something I have been thinking about leaves me with a question. When I was leaving with the load of manure mixture, I passed the county fair grounds. They have a huge pile of wood shavings, sawdust, hay, and manure. The county fair was the other week so they have been cleaning up. The pile is almost all carbon stuff, very little manure.

How much manure would I need to get to mix in to get the pile to compost right? Would it be one load of manure to one load of clean up 1to1, 2to1 etc???


----------



## Studhauler

buck_1one said:


> (shameless plug of my new truck:nanner


:thumb: Sweet Truck :thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

buck_1one said:


> That was all loaded and unloaded by hand...well fork and shovel. The truck does not have a dump on it...yet, and by the time the caretaker came home (he has a bobcat) I had loaded all they had.


Reminds me of my humble beginnings....pickup, high sides, pitchfork....



missyann100 said:


> 8/18/2011 12:16 am - I have been reading this like its a novel. There are so many pieces! Its awesome! I think it might take me a couple days to read all of this. I am excited to do so. As I am reading I can't help but wonder if Forerunner hasn't turned this into a book yet? Have you gotten a call from Nat Geo? Dirty Jobs? I can't wait to read on. I had to create a document for my desktop named "Where I left off" Thanks great reading and awesome story. Sorry to hear about your first wife. Like a good book do you ever say what happened to her? Maybe you should leave that to the real book. Its almost as good as Bridges of Madison County.  Well I think it is. Thanks!


It's been no secret as to Wendy's passing. She was cleaning house with my daughter one winter day, and she sat down to rest, then laid back and was gone. Autopsy mentioned mitrovalve and a normal pregnancy. They tried to blame it on her heart. Could be. Two professional cardiologists looked at the autopsy at the request of Wendy's mother and both agreed, "People don't die from this". I know what happened. She transformed to perfect angelhood. I watched it happen over the last few months, strongly intensifying over the last few weeks, even moreso the last few days that she was with me. She had no further cause to suffer this realm.
How I envy her. 



InvalidID said:


> I finally found a composting program to rival Forerunner, though it likely comes in a close second only.
> 
> http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/08/portland_gets_ready_to_roll_ou.html


It's about time some of these municipalities started taking soil nutrition seriously. Hope they aren't too dictatorial in the administration of it.



buck_1one said:


> I forgot to mention that I communed with the pile when I picked it up and I think Digger communed with it after it was unloaded.:happy2: Figured that would make Forerunner happy,lol.
> 
> Something I have been thinking about leaves me with a question. When I was leaving with the load of manure mixture, I passed the county fair grounds. They have a huge pile of wood shavings, sawdust, hay, and manure. The county fair was the other week so they have been cleaning up. The pile is almost all carbon stuff, very little manure.
> 
> How much manure would I need to get to mix in to get the pile to compost right? Would it be one load of manure to one load of clean up 1to1, 2to1 etc???


Communing with your pile gets you 5 points and a gold star.
Mix those fairground cleanings half and half with manure....but check as you dig into them..... they may be more pre-inoculated than you realize.


----------



## Trisha in WA

THE FAIR!!!!! Our little county fair is coming up! I wonder if I could manage to get a load or 2 from them! Oooooooh I am going to ask!
Doing the carbon happy dance!


----------



## buck_1one

Studhauler said:


> :thumb: Sweet Truck :thumb:


Thank you! I've gotten a lot of complements on her so far. She is a F-350 XL, V-10, 6 speed manual, 4X4 (also manual), with a 13,000lb GVWR.




Forerunner said:


> It's about time some of these municipalities started taking soil nutrition seriously. Hope they aren't too dictatorial in the administration of it.


My Dad, who lives in Baltimore MD, told me they are starting to do something like this where he is at also.




Forerunner said:


> Communing with your pile gets you 5 points and a gold star.


WOOO HOOOO I've got a gold star :dance: Can I put it on the fridge??? Can I, can I, can I!?



Forerunner said:


> Mix those fairground cleanings half and half with manure....but check as you dig into them..... they may be more pre-inoculated than you realize.


I take that to mean a 1to1 ratio? One load of cleanings to the same size load of manure?

Finding carbon seems to be the easy part. Finding a large enough source of nitro is proving to be difficult.

If I can get the fairground cleanings, I'm going to check out the stock yard in the next county and see if they have any manure.


----------



## wottahuzzee

buck_1one said:


> If I can get the fairground cleanings, I'm going to check out the stock yard in the next county and see if they have any manure.


And so it begins . . :thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

One to one = half and half x 2. 

Carbon is golden, these days. 
My shortage in winter is carbon and I'm barely coming up with enough for summer.
Used to be cheap and plentiful, then the big dairies came in and joined the market.
Went from all you can haul for free to 1500 bucks a semi load. I say it's about time the stuff got the credit it deserves. Kudos to mega dairy for laying down a fresh carbon bed every morning......
Grab C while you can. It stockpiles inoffensively and will be there when you do get that glut of nitrogen.


----------



## CesumPec

buck_1one said:


> The truck does not have a dump on it...yet


here is a poor man's dump truck, a quick unloader. Make a sled/scoop out of a piece of heavy steel, a little less than the width of the bed, by either welding or bending so that you form an "L". The legs of the sled should both be 12 - 18 inches. The sled should sit in your bed with one leg against the cab and the other leg pointing towards the rear. Attach chains on the vertical leg at points about 5 feet wide. The chains will need to be long enough to extend the full length of the bed plus another foot or two.

When you put in the load, it will sit on the portion of the L sitting on the bed and will cover the chains. When you want to unload, attach a longer chain to the chains hanging out the end of the bed and to some sturdy tree. Drive away slowly and the sled will pull the load right out the back of your truck. 

The steel for the sled doesn't have to be solid. To keep it light enough to easily handle, try using diamond mesh steel reinforced with solid steel where you attach the chains. 

This solution probably won't work for really heavy loads, but I created it for an old Mazda P/U I had years ago. A local horse farm would give me all the manure I would haul away and I had to find an easy way to unload. Since my sled had to be narrow enough to pass between the wheel wells of a compact truck, it was much smaller and lighter than what you will need. I still had to shovel and sweep out the sides of the bed, but it made unloading a quick job. 

I hope this explanation made sense. I'm not sure I've described it as well as i should. For heavy loads in a large truck like yours, you might find that a triangle of steel on each end to keep the "L" from bending might be a useful mod.


----------



## buck_1one

CesumPec said:


> here is a poor man's dump truck....


Thank you very much for trying to help. I sort of understand what you are saying. One problem, I have nothing to hook to that would pull that kind of weight out of the bed.


----------



## buck_1one

Well I hit compost payday!!!!:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

I went down to the caretaker of the fairgrounds a while ago. We talked and looked at what he has piled up. The huge pile of stuff I first saw was the cleanup at the end of each day. He said the pile should have plenty of poo mixed in. The owners of the animals would clean up the stalls and dump it. Then he piled it up with the bobcat. It is a mixture of wood shavings, hay, and poo.

There must be at least 20 truck loads there. He said I could have all I want, and if I come down in the later part of evening he would load it for me. He also said he would leave the gate unlocked if I wanted to come down during the day and load by hand, just so long as I close up the gate afterwards.

On top of that it's free and only 7 miles one way.

So he loaded up the truck while I was there, and the heat from the pile liked to knock me out of the truck. The pile had mushrooms growing on it already. So all and all I'm tickled pink, and I'll probably black and blue by the time I get it all unloaded and piled up. 

So I guess my composting can now be called....extreme!!!


----------



## Forerunner

Well..... it's about high time.


----------



## buck_1one

Just wondering where Mudborn has been latley?

I have been re-reading this thread and I noticed he has not "added to the pile" sense April. There for a while he was a regular contributor and now...gone.

Hope he didn't add himself to the compost pile lol.


----------



## Forerunner

Last I knew, MB was building a house....kinda fancy/backwoods style.

I know I occasionally have to buckle down and attend some other pressing matter, from time to time.


----------



## mudburn

I've not gone anywhere. I just haven't been hauling in much material since the local stock yard went belly up. There is hope that it'll be reopened -- it was sold to a guy from Texas for $350,000 last week. I'm hoping for more cleanings and dead cows before too many more moons have passed. In the meantime, I am spreading cow and horse manure across a few acres of pasture in an intensively managed pattern, allowing it to fall fresh from the business ends of four bovines and one horse. Some sections of the pasture are beginning to show improvement already in their second year of the process. I've also managed to grow a fabulous crop of weeds along with some nice vegetables this summer and to have kept the local raccoons (except one unfortunate creature who stepped into a trap and subsequently became compost) well-fed on heirloom sweet corn, popcorn, and field corn.

I am continuing on my house-building, hoping to be done before too many more months elapse. I envy the focus and freedom that my brother Forerunner enjoys, though. He long ago weaned himself from the institutional tit to a degree that is admirable and affords him opportunities for diligent effort that are unencumbered by the bureaucratic and mundane elements which define the plight of most modern individuals. Although I have embraced some elements of said freedom in my own life, I have not taken many of the steps of faith which Forerunner has which permit a much more undivided focus upon the weightier and more important elements of life and backwoods farming. Because of his incredible ability to imagine the future and take steps to meet it as a free man, he is able to achieve great things while my efforts are comparatively small and feeble. He makes and moves mountains, whereas I have created a few small foothills. But, there is hope for all of us. Forerunner is blazing a trail, inspiring many others and inciting imaginations so that each of us may also one day become makers and movers of mountains as we pursue Eden-like fertility with the help of billions of microbes and innumerable earth worms feasting upon the refuse from multiple life forms.

mudburn


----------



## buck_1one

mudburn said:


> I've not gone anywhere. I just haven't been hauling in much material since the local stock yard went belly up...


Glad to hear you're alive and doing well. Sorry to hear about your composting efforts. Hopefully things will turn around in that area, for ya.


I got the truck unloaded this afternoon and went back for another load. I think I am going to put some make shift sides on the truck so I can get more material in a load. If I go up another two feet that will take me to the top of the bed's headboard, give or take a few inches.


----------



## Forerunner

As a child, I recall being fascinated with the story of the loaves and fish.
Growing up, I was cognizant of my limited capacity to produce, as it were.
This awareness has grown since.

Just in the last few days, the thought occurred to me that I have not been as limited as I would like to imagine, because, in reality, one man would be hard pressed to accomplish what I have been blessed to accomplish.....and especially to do so and still feel young (most of the time, especially in spirit  ).
I still have energy, dreams and aspirations, and even a current and specific focus.

Without a doubt, my Heavenly Father has taken my humble loaves and fishes, and multiplied them enormously.

There is little stopping anyone else from offering what they have into His service, so that they too might witness the miracle of what HE will do with your sincere effort.


----------



## Fast Eddie

I have to say this is an interesting and very informative thread. I am reading and learning hoping to implement some of these fine practices when I am able to move to a place in the country. Keep up the good works and deeds people and I will be watching and learning as you go.


----------



## UncleJT

buck_1one, that's an awesome truck.. hopefully I can get something similar one day.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> There is little stopping anyone else from offering what they have into His service, so that they too might witness the miracle of what HE will do with your sincere effort.


:thumb:


----------



## buck_1one

UncleJT said:


> buck_1one, that's an awesome truck.. hopefully I can get something similar one day.


Thank you, thank you very much. I looked long and hard to find what I wanted. I drove 38 hours round trip, straight through, to get her and bring her home with me. You have my best wishes in getting "something similar one day".

I started working on raising the bed sides up today when I got home form work. I got the sides and the headboard on. Made a tailgate, of sorts, but got rained out and did not get to finish. I took the sides up to a full 4' high. Hope to finish it up tomorrow, weather permitting.

It does not look real pretty, but it is strong and will not be on the truck forever either. This should give me a little over 11 cubic yards in the bed.

Buck


----------



## buck_1one

Well I've been a busy little beaver today. Got the box all finished up on the truck, got another load (good size one this time), and got a little over half of it unloaded before it got too dark to see.

Here are a few pics of my progress.

This is the driver side, notice the ladder and fork.










Passenger side, notice shovel.










Rear box and tailgate.


















Reason for ladder. I've got to have some way up and into the bed.










Daddy's little helper.










Lastly, just playing in poo!! Oh no I'm covered in it, lol.










Hope you enjoyed,
Buck


----------



## Forerunner

Why do I hear the theme song for the original Beverly Hillbillies ?


----------



## missyann100

Forerunner said:


> Why do I hear the theme song for the original Beverly Hillbillies ?


We have trucks just like that running all around East TN! 

Start playing and we'll all sing along! Great looking truck!


----------



## UncleJT

buck_1one: love the stake bed changes, I need that truck!


----------



## buck_1one

I'm still bringing in materials for the pile. Things slowed down for the last few days. The care taker of the fair grounds has been out of town and I've been dealing with some stomach issues the last few days.

This is where I've been dumping things until I can get all I want to make the compost pile. We received a little rain here the last couple of days. Went out and looked at the pile and...

*I've got steam!!*​









It's only the upper part of the pile that is wet. Some parts are dry just a few inches down others about a foot deep.

Again this is not the completed compost pile, but I was happy to see steam :bouncy:

Buck


----------



## Joe Prepper

I am trying to determine what manure source I should use for my carbon. I have about 3 dump truck loads of wood shaving at my disposal begging for some company. 

When deciding, should I worry at all about what the providing animal eats or is inoculated with?

I dont know how one would go about asking those questions when trying to get manure from a sale barn, county fair or even local barn. 

Here's to hoping it wont matter to the end product.


----------



## Forerunner

Use whatever manure you can get 'hold of, Joe. 
I get occasional flak from the idealists, but most of them aren't serious about composting.
The heat of the pile is your biggest ally, and it sounds like you've more than enough material to get the temps right up where they need to be.


----------



## taylorlambert

Forerunner I wished you were closer I d send you half our landfill sawdust. We get a super fine powder that has a few laminate particles from a milling process from the plant. Its too dusty to sell as shavings. I put it down on the haul road for the winter for trucks to run on but when it saturates we windrow it and then pick it up with the scrapers and put it in a pile Im letting compost. The thing is with our site I cant ad manure. The piles are pretty hot I checked to day and the core is over 135. I bring a 20 yard load home when ever I catch a truck comming this way. 

I have a word in with the supervisors, and 3 local vets for dead goats cows and horses and the state for deer carcasses. Manure here is hard to get folks think its bad for gardens and push it off in ditches but mention buy or trading them shavings for manure and they think its gold. I did make a score with one of the poultry houses near work. He lost 40 000 6 pound broilers to the heat and had to pay to have the dog food companies take them. I told him I d send the dumpsters for them if it happened again. Im building my carbon piles now about 10 feet wide at the base and a few feet tall to bedd thme in. Im also building a windrow turner for my Skid loader.


----------



## am1too

Is dry horse poop any good? That is will it heat up if it gets wet?


----------



## curdy

am1too said:


> Is dry horse poop any good? That is will it heat up if it gets wet?


I cut my composting teeth on horse poo. Works well and easy to work with IMO. Keep in mind it has a lower N:C content than other manures, so depending on the bedding used in a stall, you may have to add more N to it.


----------



## Forerunner

Dry horse poo is a gift from God.

Taylor, if we lived closer, we'd be on the news. :thumb:


----------



## Freya

Ok I have an actual compost question finally! :nanner:


If we get this certain property (the "trashed house" thread) I will start as big of a pile as I can.

Now what is there right now is a *ton* of dead cactus, some dried horse or donkey poo (cant tell which) and as much various mesquite trimmings and other desert type bushes (dont know what all they are yet) as I care to cut back on.

Now there is about twenty times more dead cactus than dried poo. If I were to shove those all together... what else should I put in there to get it cooking good? I have never made a really big pile before, only small ones and "tumblers". I also do not recall ever reading about composting cactus in any detail. It's no longer green but a sickly grey/white and rotting. There was a really unexpected freeze last year that killed a giant amount of succulants in the area.


*Ok I am all open ears on this one!!! * :bow:


----------



## Forerunner

I dare say, pile it all together, mixed to the best of your ability, and add water.


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> I dare say, pile it all together, mixed to the best of your ability, and add water.



:grin: And here I thought it was going to be "difficult". ound:


----------



## Forerunner

Let that be a lesson to yuh.:drum:


----------



## NEMarvin

Great stuff here, and thanks to everyone who has shared their knowledge for the rest of us. 

I live in a newer suburban neighborhood (for now) so the only composting I've been doing is primarily grass clippings, garden waste, and a few kitchen scraps. Very few leaves (no mature trees!) yet, but those that do get mowed up, bagged and added as well. 

I get some compost eventually, but based on what I'm reading, I would surmise from what I've been reading that I am lacking carbon most of the year. In reading this thread, it appears that my best source of available carbon will be paper--newspaper, office paper, junk mail, etc., as well as cardboard.

I am assuming that this will work best if the paper, etc., was shredded first before adding, and should be used in layers with the grass clippings and other things. Is this correct?

Also...a lot of paper I get is the glossy stuff--is this okay to use as well? 

Thanks in advance for the answers, and thanks for all the great knowledge!


----------



## Forerunner

Hello Marvin and welcome aboard.

It sounds like your C/N balance may be better than you think.
Dried grass clippings with a few shredded leaves make a good carbon source.
The other sources you mentioned will work fine. That glossy paper will just take linger to break down. If I were composting glossy paper, I'd be sure my pile was hot and moisture levels adequate.
If you can find a source, even a small source, of manure, you can really increase your bacteria count to beneficial effect.


----------



## NEMarvin

Thanks Forerunner. You're probably right. A lot do dry out over time. Being on the smaller scale, I don't get a lot of heat. I like the manure aspect and I'm working on that. Also, working on making room in my garage for a smaller garden size chipper a friend is getting rid of. Doesn't work great, but will work great for the small branches, rose bush trimmings, and woody stems, etc., that I have. Think I have a source for a little bit of manure; maybe a 5 gal bucket or two periodically.

ETA: Hard to commune with my pile, though after dark some nights I do my best. :clap::clap:


----------



## Forerunner

:thumb:

It is a bond that needs be created....and maintained, often.


----------



## taylorlambert

my composting at work is cancelled, DEQ has a new inspector that checks us and since COmposting on site wasnt in the original plans 17 years ago Ihll have to bury or remove my piles Unless i can get a permit for it. I can store the material for 30 days. I guess Ill have to bring it to the house.


----------



## Forerunner

Bureaucrats know best.


----------



## Gaea Star

You guys are pretty inspiring. My partner and I are going to be growing our own animals soon if we can get the place we want. This thread has inspired me to try to compost as much of the animal and garden leftovers as we can to improve our place. (crossing my fingers that we can get it for what we are able to pay for it)

Oh and btw you guys are the reason I joined the site after reading through this entire thread : pants :
Thanks for being so helpful and informative to all us newbies.


----------



## taylorlambert

Forerunner I had an old whiskey maker/runner tell for every law and bureaucrat there was alt least 2 loopholes. Im going through the books now.


----------



## Forerunner

Hello and welcome, Star. 

I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in thread, but, early on in the beginnings of my more extreme bent toward composting, I came across a quote that gave me pause.....

"A nation's wealth is directly connected to the fertility of its soil."

What is true for a nation is true for a family, and it's no stretch to say that, no energy is wasted in nurturing the soil over which you have control.
Good luck with that land, and knock yourselves out once you get rolling. 


Taylor, the trick is going to be overcoming the fact that you are dealing with corporate land......and not your own. Not saying that the right persuasion applied might turn the tide in your favor.....


----------



## taylorlambert

Well I checked my books and we are supposed to be allowed to compost on site The state will reaccess the situation I may have to have some concrete bunkers built, If thats the case we will try to ease them into letting us windrow compost. I had 60 yards of half finished compost dumped at the farm today.


----------



## JDog1222

Ok, compost man, what&#8217;s going on, what do I need? 
I picked me up this contraption thing from CL called a Compost Tumbler, for $100. I always wanted to try one, but never wanted it bad enough to pay the $400 NEW price. SO, they say this thing can make COMPOST in as little as 6 WEEKS!! Woo Woo, WELL, I gathered up some of the un-eaten hay that the goats had went #2 all over and put it in there. I added about 5gal of water from the ol&#8217; turtle tank, and cranked the handle a few times like the instructions directed me to do. The next day I cranked it again, then again on day 2, and day 3, and three weeks later&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..it smells like something is going on in there, but NO HEAT! What&#8217;s up? Do I need to go scoop up some of that runny green cow slop to add some more nitrogen to the mix, what ya think?


----------



## Forerunner

You bought a compost tumbler ?!!! 

If I recall what I read in the instruction manual to one of those contraptions some years ago, you have to crank it really fast for a long time........


----------



## JDog1222

:heh: I'm smarter than THAT, Mr. COMPOST! :nono:


----------



## Forerunner

Darn.:yawn:









Pull those humiliated contents back out and get them in a nice, tidy pile containing at least the mass of a pick-up load and, having been so relieved of their near-unbearable stint in that torture chamber, they will heat and go on with their preferred routine. 

In time, they may even forgive you.


----------



## JDog1222

I JUST wanted to try! :ashamed:
It surly would make a NICE re-gift at a birthday party, wouldnât it? :shrug:
Thinking THIS would be a better purchase! http://peoria.craigslist.org/grd/2584014375.html
Iâm guessing it will be out of my range and I better stick with THIS!
http://www.chdist.com/displayproduc...le_pla&sku=3271300&cid=pla_goog&mr:adType=pla


----------



## Forerunner

I like those choices much better than the tumbler.

Be glad that your mind is not constantly burdened with such behemoths as this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morbark-Mod...063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56404abbf7


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> I like those choices much better than the tumbler.
> 
> Be glad that your mind is not constantly burdened with such behemoths as this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morbark-Mod...063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56404abbf7


If that is the "used" price... what was it brand new?


----------



## JDog1222

O SNAP! 

Well, if yaâd start selling the stuff, Iâd think it would pay for that thing in a matter of just a few months! NO hill for a back-woods-man, RIGHTâ¦â¦â¦â¦? :teehee:


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Forerunner said:


> Be glad that your mind is not constantly burdened with such behemoths as this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morbark-Mod...063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56404abbf7


Oh but it is, there was one for sale locally for $35k (less the grapple) a while back. When I had surgery a while back, I was doped up on pain medicine and kept dreaming of compost.


----------



## mudburn

A friend sent me a link to a recent documentary film called Back to Eden which I found very interesting. It details no-till gardening using a heavy mulch (wood chips, specifically) and compost. The mulch breaks down over time so that the garden is actually in straight compost with a covering. It made me think of what Forerunner is doing with the added component of a heavy mulch cover. In essence, it's sheet composting in which successive layers of cover are added as needed.

Here's a trailer/teaser:

[YOUTUBE]fGZ1Wy0WES0[/YOUTUBE]

If after watching that you want to view the whole film, go to:

http://www.backtoedenfilm.com/

I've watched it twice and see how it fits perfectly with what we've been discussing her in Extreme Composting. I'm interested in others' feedback and thoughts on it.

mudburn


----------



## Forerunner

*sports defensive look and stuff*

I use heavy mulch, too !:grumble:

I've also been making more use of green manure than ever this year.
Buckwheat, volunteer wheat grain and quite a variety of weeds this year have been tilled in multiple times.

Spot-on video, Mudburn.
It's not Eden here, yet...... but this year's peach crop has me wondering..... we might be getting close.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> *sports defensive look and stuff*
> 
> I use heavy mulch, too !:grumble:
> 
> I've also been making more use of green manure than ever this year.
> Buckwheat, volunteer wheat grain and quite a variety of weeds this year have been tilled in multiple times.
> 
> Spot-on video, Mudburn.
> It's not Eden here, yet...... but this year's peach crop has me wondering..... we might be getting close.


Lucky you to have anything green to till in this year. everything has been brown this year here. They didn't even have to bail the hay. Cattle ate it before being cut.


----------



## retire2$

What are the benefits and/or negative effects of spreading fresh sawdust mixed with horse manure directly on your pasture? 

My neighbor uses sawdust (not sure if it is hardwood or softwood) in her box stalls for her horses. She cleans daily and replaces all the saw dust each month. I was thinking if I bought a wheel driven manure spreader she could put this directly into the manure spreader and I could spread it over my pasture on a monthly basis. I have a few cows that I rotate through the pastures. They are on the pasture for 1-2 days before they are moved. I then use a riding mower to mow the pasture. I drag a length of chain link fence behind the mower to break up the cow plops. The amount of sawdust would be 2 one ton truck loads per month spread out over 1/2 to 1 acre lots. 

Thanks in advance for any and all replies.


----------



## Forerunner

If you just spread that mix as thin as you can, and don't till it in, you will realize a slow increase in tilth and fertility. I would definitely want to compost it, myself, but for a pasture application, what you describe should work.
If you could spread just before a rain, you'd lose less nutrient to sunlight, and more would get into the ground quicker, where you want it....leaving a slightly leached top layer that would make an excellent mulch.


----------



## Gabriel

retire2$ said:


> What are the benefits and/or negative effects of spreading fresh sawdust mixed with horse manure directly on your pasture?


I think it depends on the %'s of each, along with how well they're mixed. Sawdust is obviously very high in carbon, and if you end up with patches of that sans manure, it will tie up nitrogen in a big way. I'd put the compost pile where you want future fertility and won't regret losing some to leaching, then spread it after it's at least somewhat decomposed.


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## retire2$

Thank you for your replies.

I was thinking along the lines of when I mow the field I leave the grass clippings and they just decompose. Also thinking that when leaves fall they will eventually break down with the help of time, insects and worms.

I was trying to think of a lazy man way to have the sawdust handled once (hand loading by my neighbor) and then machine dumping with manure spreader. My only physical labor would be hauling the spreader with my truck and the initial monetary purchase of the spreader.

Easy ways are never easy.


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## trbizwiz

Those both have nitrogen and enzymes in them to help compost. Saw dust requires a good deal of additional nitrogen as well as substantial effort by something to compost. If sawdust is spread freely on the ground and not piled and with inadequate nitrogen it will absorb nitrogen from the soil and take a long time to compost and return the n to the soil. Just make sure there is roughly 1/3 manure to 2/3 sawdust you will be fine. Though piling and distributing after composting would be much better


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## buck_1one

WOW! Haven't posted here in almost a month. Not sure if anyone cares or not, lol.

I finished cleaning out the fair grounds on September 12. I've been looking for a nitrogen source for almost a month now.

The stock yard in the next county didn't have much and it was so full of trash I felt it was not worth the effort.

After many tries I got a hold of someone at this small private stock yard in town. They have a great deal of manure piled up and I can have all I want. Problem is these people are not reliable, never seem to be there, and don't stay long when they do come in. I don't want to seem ungrateful, it's free, they are loading it for me, and it's only about 6 miles from home.

While waiting for these people to show up (they showed up almost an hour later then they told me to be there) some guy drove by asked me about my truck. We talked for a little while and he said if they didn't have enough manure that he had plenty of horse manure if I wanted it.

Funny, a month ago I couldn't find any manure, now I have a line on more manure then I have room for.

I was able to get four dump trailer loads in on Friday. They claim the bucket on the tractor holds about a ton (2,00lbs). Five buckets per trailer (10,000lbs) X four trailers brought in gives me somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000lbs.

I'm going to stop at the tool rental place after work tomorrow and see about renting a front end loader. Bring it home and start mixing things up with what I have. I think I'll need more manure then I have right now. It has a lot of weight but not a huge volume.

I wonder if there is any chance it will be ready by spring? It's almost October, that gives about seven months before planting season. Somehow I don't think it will be ready that fast.

Buck


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## idigbeets

If you make a windrow over 6 feet tall it will continue composting over the winter. Depending on how much sawdust is in there (and how much additional N you add) it could be ready in May or June. 

I'm going to try a passive composting system over the next year to try and eliminate the frequent turnings of large compost piles. Basically take loose straw and pile it 6-12 inches deep. Take 4-6 inch PVC (thick wall enough to withstand the weight of pile) and drill holes every 8 inches in a staggered pattern, 2 rows down one side of the pipe. Lay the pipe every 4 feet on the straw, holes down. Add materials on top. Theoretically the holes will allow air movement within the pile (so i'm told ! ).


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## Forerunner

Seven months in a large, well mixed and balanced pile should do the trick.
Just check it when the time comes for ....
1. Darkness of color;
2. Lack of strong urea odor;
3. Pile beginning to cool off (doesn't any longer burn your hand).

How nice it IS to see others bit by the bug and making progress in _*STOPPING THE WASTE*_.

We should form up politically, and call ourselves the _Compost Tea Party_.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Anyone have access to slaughter house remains? If so, what condition is it in when you get it? How do you handle it?


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## Forerunner

Slaughterhouse remains are wonderful....... already somewhat dismantled and opened up, so they compost quickly in a high carbon compost base.
Grab all you can find carbon for......

Bury them 18-24" into the pile and varmints should not be an issue.
Same goes for flies, odors and other potential troubles. Carbon cures all ills.


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## buck_1one

Forerunner said:


> We should form up politically, and call ourselves the _Compost Tea Party_.


With all the BS in Washington, we would never be short on a nitrogen supply!


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## Forerunner

We could heat our homes and businesses with all the hot air.


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## buck_1one

I got the manure I brought in mixed with the fairground cleanings. Never thought it would be so difficult to mix. The manure dried enough that it was the constancy of thick mortar.

I put a bucket of fair ground cleanings down, a bucket of manure, and a bucket of fair ground cleanings on top of that. Then I used the loader to smash it all together, drag it out, pile it up, smash it together, drag it out, pile it up....and on and on until it seemed as mixed as I could get it. Once it seemed mixed I put it on the compost pile.

Took me ALL DAY to mix the manure and fair ground cleanings. The loader was a little too small (underpowered) and everything turned into a mud pit. So that ate up a lot of time.

I was able to get about 3/4 of the fair ground cleanings mixed and piled. I think I'll need to bring in another 18,000 to 20,000 lbs of manure to finish mixing up what I have left. I was hoping to get that in today, my day off, but it rained last night and I'm not sure I'd be able to get the truck and trailer through the mud pit without getting stuck. Calling for rain (off and on) the next couple of days, so my next chance might be on Monday, my next (non-rain) day off.

How long will/does it take for a mixed fresh compost pile to heat up? I can't wait to grab a cup of coffee, sit outside, and watch the steam rise off my pile!!

Buck


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## Forerunner

* giddy with the contagion *

If you've got good moisture content......that pile should be heating _right now!!_:bouncy:


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## Silvercreek Farmer

There is a hay field down the road that they cut a few weeks ago. A few of the roundbales flopped on their sides when they dumped them out of the baler. Since then we have had around 3 inches of rain. Noticed this morning that the bales on their sides were steaming like a hot tub in January! I think I need to put an ad on craigslist for moldy hay...


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## Forerunner

Definitely.


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## buck_1one

Might not hurt to just ask the farmer about those bales. I was having a heck of a time finding material to bring in, at first. I was ready to put an ad in the local paper and on the "trading post" on my local radio station. But, I just kept asking people I know if they knew where I could get any manure. Once I *really started* looking, asking and not giving up, it took me about a month to have a line on more material then I have room for.

Around here hay has been hard to get the last couple of years. The guy down the road from me got two cuttings last year and I only seen him out once this summer making hay. Normally I see farmers get about 3 cuttings a year, but it has been a little on the dry side here lately.

Good luck!

Buck


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## Copperhead

Hello Everyone

My name is Jeremy . . . the "Copperhead" is a reference to my hairstyle :whistlin: I spent 8 years in the Marines, went to Iraq twice, and decided to stay home and get married. My lovely wife patiently tolerates all my adventures, and my 4 kids still don't know what to think of all this "culture".

We have 6 Acres near Elkins, WV that we have been homesteading for the last 4+ years. We raise chickens, turkeys, rabbits, pigs, goats and cows. We also have a horse, two dogs, and two cats. At this point, we're a bit cramped and are looking for a larger property, which is why I've also posted much of this information on the Real Estate Thread.

We have an Apple orchard, mature Blueberry bushes, and a Black Raspberry Patch. In addition, we have young peach trees, young cherry trees and some established rhubarb. The hunting is VERY GOOD. We have lots of deer, squirrels and wild turkeys -- which keep trying to lure my tame turkeys away from home.

I have two small, but full compost piles that I started in the Spring, a partial pile in progress, and a sawdust storage pile. All of the above is contained in bins made of free pallets. In addition to barn scrapings, we also add butchering leftovers and the occasional roadkill. When my sweet wife starts to get grossed out, I ask her "_How does your garden grow_?" 

Hopefully, I'll get some pictures posted -- _insert shameless plug for help posting pics_. I get sawdust and shredded bark "free" from a sawmill only 7 miles away -- However, there is a mandatory $15 loading fee per truckload, but I guess it beats loading by hand. Besides, they didn't complain when I put 24" sides on my truck. 

Although we're only about 4 hours out of Washington D.C., we live in a rural, friendly community that is tolerant of "outsiders". Heck, some of the local ******** used to be college educated professional types. :thumb:

Now if someone would be so kind as to instruct me on how to post pics on this thread!:help:


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## Forerunner

Greetings, Jeremy.

Go to "photobucket" or "imageshack", etc. for your best bets for posting pics in this forum.
Congrats on the successful homesteading thus far........ sounds like your operation is in order.


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## Copperhead

Thanks Forerunner

As my wife says, this is all your "fault". Your hardwork, research, and instruction are greatly appreciated. Thanks for pointing us in the right direction.

Enjoy the pics . . . more to follow when I'm able









Extreme Firewood

Is this Extreme enough? To avoid hijacking the thread, I do get a wheelbarrow of sawdust just cutting these logs into firewood. 









Get it? Copperhead!


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## Forerunner

All _my_ fault?! 

You make your own sawdust, too ?

I think I'm gunna cry.


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## idigbeets

I was wondering if anyone knows of a good Nitrogen source to heat up a slow heating pile (mostly leaves and old horse manure) that isn't terribly expensive. Obviously blood meal is one of the faster acting but at $50/50lbs it is not very cost effective on a large scale.(I have 30+ tons of leaf matter etc). 

Feather meal is another options at $25/50lbs but it is a slow release fertilizer and I fear it will not heat the pile quickly. Thoughts?

I am having a hard time finding straight up manure in my area, most farms are horse farm and mix heavily with sawdust. I really do not need anymore Carbon bulk in my pile at this time.


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## buck_1one

I know it's late in the year/season for this, but with the little I've done over the summer, grass clippings really added a lot of heat to my pile.

I don't know your situation, but if you could get enough grass and have a way to mix it in that will fire it up.

Buck


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## jlrbhjmnc

Yes - fresh grass clippings will heat things up! We're still using that method here. But we have a small pile - just a single pickup-load sized.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

idigbeets said:


> I was wondering if anyone knows of a good Nitrogen source to heat up a slow heating pile (mostly leaves and old horse manure) that isn't terribly expensive. Obviously blood meal is one of the faster acting but at $50/50lbs it is not very cost effective on a large scale.(I have 30+ tons of leaf matter etc).
> 
> Feather meal is another options at $25/50lbs but it is a slow release fertilizer and I fear it will not heat the pile quickly. Thoughts?
> 
> I am having a hard time finding straight up manure in my area, most farms are horse farm and mix heavily with sawdust. I really do not need anymore Carbon bulk in my pile at this time.


This will make the organic folks cringe, but if you are short on dead animals, grass clippings, food scraps, or fresher manure, you can use a high nitrogen fertilizer like 34-0-0 (costs about $13/50lbs around here). Mix some into your pile and it will heat in no time. Maybe start with three bags or so for your 30 tons and see how that goes...


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## MOgal

Human urine, dog food, alfalfa pellets. Ask at your feed store for broken bags or even floor sweepings.

It's a shame you don't have a hog floor or a dairy near you. That 30+ tons will take a while. I'd be tempted to spread it and till it in as it is. Yes, it will tie up some nitrogen for a while but oh, it will attract the earthworms and they will be happy as clams for a long time.


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## Forerunner

Leaves are one compost ingredient that I'm not afraid to work into the ground raw, especially this time of year. They seem to have a decent sense of balance, especially fresh.
I've seen leaf piles heat by themselves many times, if adequate moisture is available.

I like the broken bag and floor sweepings suggestion. Where there's a will.......


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## MOgal

Hot diggity dog! Someone with Forerunner's experience and knowledge agreeing with me. Just made my day.


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## MOgal

Hey, Forerunner, I meant that as a genuine compliment because you do have so much expertise re: composting. I'm grateful for the validation, maybe just didn't say it as well as I could have.


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## Forerunner

Oh, you're fine. I just generally don't respond to high compliments.
Easier for me to maintain the illusion of humility, that way. 
Thank you for your respectful sentiments.:grouphug:

I took some compost and field pics the other day.
When the Spirit moves me, I'll post some.


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## Freeholder

I don't know if I'd even till those leaves in! Some of the nicest soil and biggest, happiest earthworms I've ever seen was under a patch where we had dumped nearly two feet of leaves one fall. We didn't do anything with it right away the next spring; sometime later in the summer I happened to stand on the pile (which had shrunk considerably) and realized that I was sinking. So I moved some of the remaining leaves aside and found that the soil underneath was so soft I could dig it with my hands! It was beautiful, rich and black and full of worms! If I was ever wanting to start a new garden without tilling, and wasn't in a major hurry, I'd pile as many leaves as I could get on the spot and leave them for a year or so.

Kathleen


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## buck_1one

My efforts are at a standstill until I can get some more manure in here. Being as I don't have the equipment to load, I am forced to wait until the stock yard has time. That and the rain is killing me, making nothing but mud.

Finally got out and took a pic of what I've gotten done so far and thought I'd share.

Here is a shot of the top










This is a side shot










This is what I have left to mix and add to the pile.


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## Copperhead

That's a good lookin' pile! Nice Carbon Reserve, too!


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## luv2farm

Well, I will now admit that I have sit under this "gospel" for so long I have had to move.......

This summer I started a small compost pile in the edge of the woods with grass clippings, twigs, tater hulls, chidken poo, old hay, and an accasional dead critter. :thumb: I thought I was doing pretty good. Then.....Last week the electric man knocks on the front door wanting permission to enter the field to cut a tree down that was across the electric lines. I said "Sure, as long as you blow the chips out onto my ground". I figured my tree, my chips, my land, my POTENTIAL compost. He says: "Are you wanting some chips? We'd be glad to, not only blow yours back onto the ground, but we could dump several loads if you want us to."  My heart almost quit beating!! So now I have 4 loads of chipped up tree branches and leaves on my old garden spot. Every morning I leave home and longingly gaze toward my stemming pile of debris.  

My question is "What do I do with it now?" I only have limited amounts of manure. Which means I'll literally have to go out into the fields and scoop up cow and goat poo. I can clean out the chicken house and below the rabbit cages again. But, that is such a small amount in comparision to the HUGE piles of leaves I have. Any suggestions? Evidently it is hot. :thumb: It stems like crazy in the mornings. :shrug:


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## Forerunner

The leaves will help, especially being fresh and all, but every bucket of manure you can mix in will be advantageous. You may just have to wait an extra year for complete decomposition, but you're on the fast track, now. :thumb:


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## Copperhead

luv2farm: Look on the bright side, you have a Carbon Reserve, which is much more user friendly than a Nitrogen Reserve


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## Trisha in WA

Yes! It is. I wish I had the carbon reserve, but no. I have TONS of nitrogen and very little carbon. 
I am hauling some sawdust in from a local guy who has a portable saw mill though...it's just not enough though.
Congrats on your wood chips luv2farm!


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## mudburn

luv2farm said:


> So now I have 4 loads of chipped up tree branches and leaves on my old garden spot. Every morning I leave home and longingly gaze toward my stemming pile of debris.
> 
> My question is "What do I do with it now?"


You can copy the technique described in Back to Eden: put the chips on your garden 4" to 6" deep. Let them sit this fall and winter. In the spring, pull the chips back in rows (or wherever you want to plant things) to plant your seeds in the dirt (not in the chips). When the plants get big enough, pull the chips back near the plants.

The wood chips will provide a heavy mulch for your garden eliminating the need to till and controlling most weeds. Weeds that do sprout can easily be pulled or raked out. As time progresses, the wood chips will decompose (compost) and enrich the soil. If you don't till the chips into the soil, just use them as a mulch, they won't tie up all the nitrogen. If you can put a layer of compost down on your garden before you put the chips down, that would be even better.

mudburn


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## am1too

luv2farm said:


> Well, I will now admit that I have sit under this "gospel" for so long I have had to move.......
> 
> This summer I started a small compost pile in the edge of the woods with grass clippings, twigs, tater hulls, chidken poo, old hay, and an accasional dead critter. :thumb: I thought I was doing pretty good. Then.....Last week the electric man knocks on the front door wanting permission to enter the field to cut a tree down that was across the electric lines. I said "Sure, as long as you blow the chips out onto my ground". I figured my tree, my chips, my land, my POTENTIAL compost. He says: "Are you wanting some chips? We'd be glad to, not only blow yours back onto the ground, but we could dump several loads if you want us to."  My heart almost quit beating!! So now I have 4 loads of chipped up tree branches and leaves on my old garden spot. Every morning I leave home and longingly gaze toward my stemming pile of debris.
> 
> My question is "What do I do with it now?" I only have limited amounts of manure. Which means I'll literally have to go out into the fields and scoop up cow and goat poo. I can clean out the chicken house and below the rabbit cages again. But, that is such a small amount in comparision to the HUGE piles of leaves I have. Any suggestions? Evidently it is hot. :thumb: It stems like crazy in the mornings. :shrug:


If you're not to far from town pick up bagged grass clippings. That will fire up any pile.


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## luv2farm

mudburn said:


> You can copy the technique described in Back to Eden: put the chips on your garden 4" to 6" deep. Let them sit this fall and winter. In the spring, pull the chips back in rows (or wherever you want to plant things) to plant your seeds in the dirt (not in the chips). When the plants get big enough, pull the chips back near the plants.
> 
> The wood chips will provide a heavy mulch for your garden eliminating the need to till and controlling most weeds. Weeds that do sprout can easily be pulled or raked out. As time progresses, the wood chips will decompose (compost) and enrich the soil. If you don't till the chips into the soil, just use them as a mulch, they won't tie up all the nitrogen. If you can put a layer of compost down on your garden before you put the chips down, that would be even better.
> 
> mudburn


Mudburn, 
Thanks for the site. Watched it twice! Very informative. I do have a few questions though. My current garden spot has been cleaned off and bushhogged over. We have not plowed it this fall. My questions are: 

Should I plow (or till) the ground before I spread the woodchips? 
Will the chips be decomposed enough by spring to garden in?

I am very interested in this gardening method. I think it is GrandmotherBear who does the no-till gardening. She does the "compost sheeting" as well, using cardboard, grass clippings, etc. Very interesting topic.......I must study more.....


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## mudburn

Stephanie,

I am new to this technique, too, but based upon what I understand, if you don't have any noxious perennials in your garden area, you should be fine just covering your garden. The film shows the technique of laying down several layers of newspaper to smoother out weeds (Paul Gautschi says that newspaper works better than cardboard). You really don't need to till the ground first.

According to Paul, if the chips are allowed to sit fall and winter on the garden, you will be fine for spring planting. You will probably want to pull the chips back to plant your seeds in the dirt, and it may be good to add some compost then, too. Once the plants are big enough, you ought to be able to pull the mulch up next to them.

I just composted and mulched a 50' by 75' garden area -- I ran out of wood chips. These were chipped last summer and have been piled waiting since then, having been moved once to a new pile last spring. I need more to cover other garden areas. That'll happen when I'm able.


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## jenG

Forerunner, Great stuff! Very inspiring to a couple that just purchased some land and are trying to figure out where to begin. Thank you!


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## buck_1one

My pile is not getting hot. I dug down about 18" and it's warm and moist, but not hot. I was expecting that burn your hand kind of heat, and steam just rolling off the pile. That's just not happening.

Any thoughts?


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## Forerunner

Hello and welcome, jenG. It is said that a nation's wealth is directly incumbent upon the fertility of its soil.
I reckon.....same goes for the homestead. :thumb:


Buck1...... hmm

got carbon in abundance ?
got appropriate N levels ?
got suitable dampness, not wet/not too dry ?
pile big enough ? (Last I saw, it was......)


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## buck_1one

Here is a pic of what I have about arm deep in the pile.



















It is very moist, but I can't get any water out of it. It smells like manure down in the pile. Can't smell anything from the top of the pile.


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## Forerunner

Odd. It looks a tad dry from here.... but that's just this monitor talkin'.
How long has it been kicked together ?
The weather just took a turn for the cooler here, and I noticed my two newer piles kicking steam this a.m.....but you did say you dug in, even.
If conditions are right, just give it more time, I reckon.


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## buck_1one

According to my journal, the pile was made Sept. 25-26.

Maybe my idea of moist and the pile's idea of moist are different??

Calling for rain Wed. & Thurs., maybe I'll put a tarp on top to try and keep in more moisture after the rain.


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## Forerunner

I finally took some time and threw together a light pictorial.

Here be last winter's sale barn pile..... VERY high concentration of manure, with a scattering of leaves and sawdusty horse stall cleanings, but not nearly enough..... so, I've been dipping out of that pile a little at a time to mix it in with the higher carbon material accumulated over this spring and summer.
The pile is hot inside, which I find interesting, given it's high manure content.You can't tell from the picture, but that pile goes back quite a ways and contains about 65 semi loads.









Here's a shot of the several piles constructed from scratch over the summer.
I did have another very large pile of sale barn over-run from January down there, but it's all been delightfully mixed with higher carbon material and is cooking very nicely, to be spread next spring.









Here's the current, up-and-coming compost yard. I started two piles, about 75 feet apart..... but it looks like they will become one after a few more additions. Note the leaves mixed with the finished looking stuff from Canton's yard waste dump..... interspersed with piles of fresh stuff from the sale barn and a local horse farm...









All shoved up into the pile........









As can be seen, the piles are about to merge. The material just never stops accumulating......









Here's another shot of the piles below. Each one contains 5-10 semi loads of material. The wheat field sure adds to the serene setting over which to ponder the deeper meanings of life of a late evening.









Here's a small field, not far from the house, freshly seeded to winter wheat and worked down. I'll let the critters pasture on that until sweet corn planting time.









Here's one happy Heidi (compliments of Ernie, no less) contentedly feeding in some buckwheat and self-seeded wheat, in one of my newest fields.
Started with pure sand in this one. Note the freshly disced area..... the drought played havoc with my buckwheat seeding and I ripped in some sporadic buckwheat and weeds for green manure.









The four year old grapes, planted in a compost bed two feet wide, six feet deep and 80 yards long. 









This is the fastest growing peach tree on the place. It, too, is four years old, transplanted in a generous compost/bone meal/garden soil mix. It volunteered from seed in one of the compost piles and puts out the _sweetest_ peaches. Got two bushels from it this season.









Now back to work.......


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Nice! Seems like volunteers are always more vigorous than grafted trees, production is always the wildcard, and it sounds like you lucked out with your peach!

I ran out of compost last weekend so I decided to spend today hauling organic material to the farm. I decided to take a sampling from all my sources. I try not to take too much advantage of my free sources as they are generally folks that know the value of organic material, but share a little just to be nice. I also buy a little, just because it is a little more convienient as it includes loading. Here is a picture of the organic "buffet":








From left to right
2 yards of chicken litter/carcass compost still needs a little time but sould make some black gold, cost $0
2 yards of "Designer" mulch, my guy at the sawmill misheard me and gave me the expensive stuff, he had already loaded it so I let it go, cost $15
2 yards of aged tree service chips, hand loaded, cost $0
2 yards of municipal yard waste chips, cost $5
2 yards of "rough" mulch from the sawmill, cost $10

Child labor, Cost: lunch and a bit of my sanity, but well worth it!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55EvBb4fhWI[/ame]

They are learning well. I can't wait until they have a little more meat on them!

Right around 10 yards total, nothing compared to some, but for now...


----------



## Freya

We neeeeeed awesome garden pics too of things growing in all this awesome compost! :rock:


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Freya said:


> We neeeeeed awesome garden pics too of things growing in all this awesome compost! :rock:


Ask and you shall receive! Here are a few of our fall garden...


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## Freya

Looking good!!! :goodjob:


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## luv2farm

I have about 3 gallons of creaso (sp?) that black stuff from where I cleaned out the flue. Can I put that in the compost? And, I have a big dust pan of my kids hair (they really needed a cutting) hahah, can that be put in the compost as well?


----------



## Homesteader at Heart

The hair, yes. Not sure about the creosote.


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## Rusty'sDog

Hair is like poultry feathers: high in nitrogen...I have heard of sports teams collecting it from barber shops to spread on their fields in the off season.

Before the EPA banned most uses of creosote, it was used to make railroad ties and phone poles worm and rot proof. It is nasty stuff that takes decades to break down. You don't want it anywhere near your garden.


----------



## Forerunner

I appreciate Rusty's sentiments, and agree for the small-timer who needs their compost perfect.... but my honest opinion is that the stuff they're using now to preserve industrial woods is far more harmful than good, old fashioned creosote. I may be wrong, but I don't think EPA banned it for the good of the earth. I suspect money was involved. 
Chlorine is the one ingredient that will unarguably choke up a microbe and keep him bed-ridden for days, if it doesn't kill him outright. All other substances seem to be digestible.
I wouldn't be afraid of adding household creosote to a good, hot pile.
I believe creosote is a hydrocarbon, and microbes can do that stuff in absolutely in a hot pile. 

That said, if homestead creosote disposal is a real thorn for some of you, spread it closely around your existing wooden fence posts. If you really want to get creative, designate a plastic barrel, with lid, for creosote disposal, and after you have accumulated several inches, mix in enough diesel fuel or used oil to bring the level up to 30 inches or more, and pre-oak your wooden fence posts in that blend for a few weeks before planting them, hanging them to dry in such a manner that the liquid drips back into the barrel for further use......


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## Mickey

Forerunner, please check your pm's


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## Forerunner

*gasp*



For _me_?!!!


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Rusty'sDog said:


> Before the EPA banned most uses of creosote, it was used to make railroad ties and phone poles worm and rot proof. It is nasty stuff that takes decades to break down. You don't want it anywhere near your garden.


Important to note that the creosote used for preservation was an oil derivative, whereas the stuff out of your chimney is from wood (assuming you are not burning coal). Sure, both are hydrocarbons that started out as living organisms, but the stuff from woodsmoke doesn't seem nearly as nasty. I just dump it on my grass and I have never noticed any adverse effects.


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner, since you gave me the go ahead to stray from the topic of compost just a bit can you be more specific about how you prune the young peach trees, ie how hard? And what varieties do you grow?
BTW, who the heck is Toni Basil?


----------



## Forerunner

I prune my mature peaches fairly thoroughly each early spring, removing all suckers and anything pointing straight up, straight down, or in toward the center of the tree.
The idea is to leave somewhat of an open center to allow for light and air to penetrate, which makes for more uniform and thorough ripening of the fruit.

My baby peaches get pruned at the same time, with the focus being on a tree that stands straight and has good limb balance. Sometimes that means one stick standing straight up when I'm done, sometimes two or three, depending upon the conformation of the little guy to begin with.

I'm not sure of any of the varieties. My late horticultural counterpart took care of those purchasing details on the four of our peaches that came from nurseries. The dozen or so that I've propagated from seed are all a deep yellow. Three of the purchased, and a few volunteers from those seeds, are white. One of the originals seems to be a cross, sharing characteristics with both red and white, even though it came from a nursery. 

Toni Basil ? You had to ask......

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4CyNvEfWoE[/ame]


----------



## Mickey

Thank you for the info about the peaches  As for the video; I'm sorry I asked


----------



## Forerunner

Just let that be a lesson to yuh. :thumb:


----------



## Barleychown

Forerunner,

Just a quick note of thanks. Earlier this year, you encouraged me to scrounge for what I could get my hands on, and I did. Slowly over the summer I added to the pile, then it sat for a couple months because the squash swallowed everything.  

This week I have been striping the gardens and moving the compost. It is far superior the the "compost" I had purchased by the truckfull in the past. Yay! I have about 10 more wheelbarrow loads to move, then I will begin the process again. 

Thank you again for the encouragement.


----------



## Forerunner

I just love success stories, Barley. 
Now you're all set to go to extremes. :thumb:

Did you take the time to watch Mickey's video ?


----------



## Mickey

Hey!:hammer::nana:


----------



## Barleychown

I live on a third of an acre, on Main Street, in town. From the looks I get, mos around me think this is extreme. 

And no, no video...do I really want to? 

P.S. Had another 7 yards of goat and horse manure mixed in sawdust dropped here this evening. Didn't realize the neighbors were having a party tonight. Bet next time they either invite me, or warn me! Haha.


----------



## Forerunner

All I can say is, there's no better way to educate, than to demonstrate. 

I'm picturing an individual with a lawn chair, a pitchfork, a can of beer and a sparkler, sitting next to his/her newly delivered 7 yard pile of microbe ambrosia, while his/her neighbors fumble miserably in their attempts to enjoy themselves by other means.


----------



## Barleychown

Hahaha! Love it. Except I'm a she, and I was too busy locking up the free ranging, worm stealing hens (kidding, I love those girls!). I'll be enjoying the steam off he pile tomorrow in the sunrise while I have a semi-peaceful cup of coffee...before the rest of the town wakes up.


----------



## Rusty'sDog

Look at it this way: they might be snickering now, but next spring/summer, you'll be the one snickering when they all stop to admire your garden.


----------



## Trisha in WA

I finally found a free source of carbon :nanner: :dance:
We have 2 friends with saw mills. One is a Woodmiser and it makes fine saw dust. The other is a circular saw type mill and it makes much more course stuff. Both guys have tractors to load it up in my pick up for me! :dance:
Originally I wasn't sure how to utilize the finer stuff as we don't have a tractor for mixing it in to our existing pile, but we picked up a load anyway. Decided to just cover the piles with the saw dust and let it do what it can to work in over time. Next spring or summer we'll be able to borrow a tractor to mix it all in if we need to.
For now I am using the courser stuff in my cow barn as bedding. If it starts to freeze up on me, then I'll just haul it out to the pile too. For now it's working great and we are taking a nice amount out with the manure as we clean the barn. It's nice to not only have to be cautious about how much bedding you take out but to actually try to take a little extra out to have a better C/N ratio!

My compost pile is going to be AWESOME!!!


----------



## Forerunner

Trisha.....I really worry about you. 
I think you're becoming obsessed with this. 









:bouncy:


----------



## Trisha in WA

Forerunner said:


> Trisha.....I really worry about you.
> I think you're becoming obsessed with this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :bouncy:


[prophead] You think so? :spinsmiley:


----------



## taylorlambert

Forerunner I just got word that I can get 5 yards of Catfish left overs per week if I want them. I have 400 yards of kiln dried alder planer shavings at work I can have. I thought about making a bed about 20 by 20 12 inches thick with a layer of dust then adding a 4 inch layer of catfish waste and then relayer with more saw dust. Then repeat as needed. 

I also may trench compost some of it to. THe fish company said I can have all I want, their waste haulers are about to quit them.


----------



## Forerunner

The final product you come up with sounds a little too nutrient-rich, Taylor.....
Are you growing crop varieties that can handle that kind of off-the-charts soil fertility ?


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Opened up access to the composting site some this weekend:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x2O894wIvI[/ame]


----------



## taylorlambert

I thought I might could either mix it with more saw dust. I am looking at putting it in a trench on a a ridge I have that was next to an old wagon road bed and a ditch on my 10 acres. I thought about after it composts dig a 2 foot wide ditch a few feet deep and plant a few apple and peach trees along it. 


I also have a an acre spot I d liked to build the soil up there to. Id like to get a real good spot to grow early lettuce and other greens. I was at the transferr station the other day and saw all those fish heads and guts gettin dumped into the hopper. I m having trouble getting nitrogen at the moment, not many horse and cattle owners ware getting rid of their manure.


----------



## Forerunner

Silvercreek.....you sure make me appreciate my bulldozer..... :sob:

Taylor.... what with fish on the menu, I think you've solved your nitrogen deficiency. :thumb:


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

And your tractors and your trailers and your front loader and your...

I would love some heavier equipment, but it just isn't in the budget, just trying to get more time on the homestead right now! But when the time comes a dumptruck may be the first item on my list...


----------



## Forerunner

After my first chainsaw (purchased with rabbit and dew worm money when I was 16, in lieu of the class ring my mother _wanted_ me to buy  ) a one ton dump truck with a grain box was my first homestead purchase. Then 15 acres, then a backhoe.
From there, it just got crazy.

I do highly recommend an old farm dump truck. They can be had around her for a couple grand, in road condition.


----------



## taylorlambert

I second what FR said on the dump truck. I have an old 2 ton Im redoing now, It was my first dump I evever bought as an 18 year old. I now hav an 89 Ford 350 with a dump. Its handier than the big truck insurance wise. I I need to make a manure fork for my skid steer loader. M yfriend gave me an old leaf dump on his place that the city dumped in. Good stuff just a hard to load with a smooth bucket. 

Forerunner What vegetable crops would take high nitrogen content compost?


----------



## Forerunner

Corn is a heavy feeder, as are greens and cole crops.
Many varieties get 'hold of that nitrogen and go foliage-crazy, then forget to set fruit.  Hence the happiness of a cabbage in a nitrogen festival. 

Leave your tomatoes and peppers in a more balanced nutrient setting, as with most small grains. Plant heavy feeders for a year or two to use up some excess N, then lay in the more laid back crops.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Thought you may enjoy this, a goat skull I buried in wood chips 11 days ago...


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> From there, it just got crazy.


Well ... something got crazy!! 

:walk:

Just thankful there wasn't a sheep named 'Cyndi'. It would just make me feel weird reading that you "sheared Jill & cyndi today".

 :runforhills:



> Corn is a heavy feeder, as are greens and cole crops.
> Many varieties get 'hold of that nitrogen and go foliage-crazy, then forget to set fruit.  Hence the happiness of a cabbage in a nitrogen festival.


Had some wonderful foliage on my peppers this year ... made crazy abundant flowers but never set fruit. Cabbage in the next row over loved the N heavy soil ... as did the broccoli. I had 6 weeks of harvesting broc in spring, cut it back in the heat and enjoyed a fall harvest also. The cauliflower did not do as well. Just like the peppers, abundant foliage, but did not set heads.

Surprisingly to me was the yellow squash ... again, abundant foliage, abundant flowers, no squash.

I've been sheet composting (spring & fall) in my garden since the spring of 2002. We have very heavy sand here that seems to suck up any and all compost so I side dress in the walkways with uncomposted manure/straw covered by used carpet. This is the first year I've experienced so much abundant foliage with no fruit/vegetables. 

Guess the sandy soil is getting N enriched. Not sure what I'll do next spring. We've already sent the pigs to freezer camp. They usually dig up my garden in the fall instead of me tilling everything under.


----------



## Forerunner

Don't blame your soil.

The weather was hard on peppers and vining crops this year.

My _next_ sheep will be named Cyndi.


----------



## MOgal

DH and I are on different morning schedules during the week so we don't do a cooked breakfast. I usually eat while reading HT posts. The LAST thing that I needed to see while eating cold cereal was Matthew's goat skull. YUCK! It wouldn't have bothered me in an hour or two.

IALBTC, right?


----------



## Forerunner

Funny..... I was immediately hungry for a goat sausage patty and a plate of pancakes when I saw it. :shrug:


----------



## MOgal

I bet you were a bad little boy too, weren't you, Forerunner?

It was a toss up whether it was the picture or the cold cereal making a lump in my tummy. At least I didn't toss otherwise.


----------



## Rusty'sDog

Abundant foliage with little/no fruit is generally blamed on an excess of nitrogen.
Without sufficient P & K, the plant will keep putting on foliage until frost hits it.


----------



## Ken Scharabok

If you know of anyone who cuts a lot of metal with a bandsaw ask for their cuttings. About sand grain size. Just sprinkle on compost pile. Will eventually completely rust, turning into iron oxide, something plants need anyway.


----------



## katy

HELP !!! Compost pile is smoldering, we burned off a few weeds and it seems to have gone down into the root system........ this was a couple of evenings ago.

How best to get it out ?? I used a hoe to try and unearth the point of origin, not sure if I got it all. Any do's or don'ts ?

TIA


----------



## Forerunner

garden hose :thumb:


----------



## katy

I wish, smarty pants, I carry water over there in gallon jugs or cart them on riding mower. Just used binoculars to check it, think I might have it, but will go back over and with more water.

BTW, I have garlic, wish it were in the ground......while I'm wishing, it would be nice if the green tomatoes were put up in the form of relish. thanks.


----------



## heavyrebel

So, our 3.5 acres is mostly sand with a layer of Bahia sod over it. THe last owner raised the porperty and they just filled with sand. She stuck horses on it and never cared for the grasses so we are building the soil. 

We have a couple calves rotating in 3 paddocks are are building our compost piles now. We have tons of manure around from our cows, chicken bedding and neighbors, and I just aquired 300 lbs+ a week in wood chips and saawdust, so we are well on our way to turning our sand into soil! Making more trips to the beach for the seaweed, too! 

Its hard to describe the feeling of creating dirt to those who dont farm or grow...but thats OK, I don't need to explain it.


----------



## Forerunner

Congrats, Heavy :thumb: on your hard-earned sense of accomplishment and appreciation for a worthy effort.
Don't let the naysayers tell you that you can't build soil in sand.
While we DO have this artificial and unsustainable world around us, make use of someone else's imbalance (i.e. "waste product") and the petroleum required to build the soil where you live. 

I envy you your proximity to the seaweed.


----------



## JS47129

I've read the first 16 pages of this thread and am loving every bit of it. I just bought a 2.5 acre homestead in Central KY and although we havent completed our move there yet I've been down there every weekend trying to get a garden started for next year. I only have about 1/4 acre of tillable ground but I think it will do nicely for sustainably growing most of our fresh veggies, plus I'm planning to plant 15/20 fruit and nut trees too.

I put an ad on Craigslist asking for manure and I found a farmer about 5 miles down the road that is giving me whatever I want from his manure pile for free and he even loads it for free with his tractor. It's an older pile of manure and bedding so it's already halfway broken down. So far I've hauled in four pick up truck loads and dumped them near where the garden is going to be. I made a mound about 5 foot high and then sprinkled some urea on it. Within two weeks ( I guess due to the urea and turning the pile during transportation and unloading at my place] it has already broken down into a nice rich crumbly brown mix. 

I will be finishing the move to the homestead next month and will then start hauling in truckload after truckload as the farmer has a pile about 40ft in diameter and about 8-10 ft tall.

Mudburn: I love the way you made the "burrito" with the chains and 2x6's. I'm going to have to give that a go myself as it will save me a lot of time. I've been unloading the truckloads with a shovel, I find it fun though.


----------



## Forerunner

Just ignore friends and family alike when they start making rumblings about such preposterous notions as "obsession", and "professional help".

If they try to take you by force, just yell *COMPOST* real loud, and we'll all come running with pitchforks.


----------



## Forerunner

I gotta say, JS47...... the first 16 pages are pretty good.
The bulk of the read after that can seem pretty post humus.





Get it ?



Post humus ? 
















:hysterical::bouncy::hysterical::bouncy:















:lookout:


----------



## JDog1222

OK, I have NO idea where I posted that last post!!

ANYWAY...........Here's FORERUNNER crushing bones!!


----------



## Forerunner

Click on JDog's pic for the video.

Heritagefarm asked me some time ago to video the bone grinding operation, and here it is....hopefully better late than never.


----------



## Freya

Forerunner has ALOT more toys than most of us! :rock:


----------



## am1too

Freya said:


> Forerunner has ALOT more toys than most of us! :rock:


The only thing that keeps me from having more compost than him is a dump truck. I should picture what is available to me to make every green with envy. They haul it out in 48 ft dumps twice a year for a week or more at a time. And that doesn't count 100,000 yards of ground up and mixed pile that they have at the sametime. If I remember I'll get some pictures nextime I go. I get it at about 7 yards at a time.

And you should see their toys!


----------



## Rusty'sDog

According to my data, bonemeal has a N-P-K ratio of 4-12-0. By the 55 gallon drum, you're getting a lot of good phosphorus for your soils!
Did I hear correctly...that is an ordinary feed grinder?


----------



## Forerunner

It is an old Bearcat mill. I understand they built those a little extra heavy duty, but I don't think there's such a difference that any mill wouldn't do the job.
The operation certainly doesn't phase the knives nor the horses turning the mill.
For reference, my knives look to be a quarter inch by 2 inch flat stock with no special shaping to the business edge.


----------



## CesumPec

have you ever tried to grind bones in a heavy duty chipper shredder?


----------



## Forerunner

That would certainly break them down, but not quite small enough to suit me.
Given my experience with chipper/shredders, the bones and dirt clinging there-to would be really hard on the knives.

Tub grinder is where it's at. Just throw in the whole cow, and a few dozen dirty tree stumps for good measure. :thumb: 

"Know-what-Ah-mean ?" Ernest


----------



## jotobo

Great thread. 

I was just referred over to this forum from a guy who who posts a lot about his homesteading efforts.

Ive just done some minor gardening in my life thus far and am excited to learn more about composting. 

Aside from this thread, any recommendations on a few key books I should be reading?


----------



## Trisha in WA

welcome jotobo
I am of the opinion you'll find all you need right here in this thread.

Happy composting!!!


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Forerunner, thanks to you, I am lusting after this...

http://hickory.craigslist.org/grd/2673528582.html


----------



## idigbeets

jotobo said:


> Great thread.
> 
> I was just referred over to this forum from a guy who who posts a lot about his homesteading efforts.
> 
> Ive just done some minor gardening in my life thus far and am excited to learn more about composting.
> 
> Aside from this thread, any recommendations on a few key books I should be reading?


I'd recommend Fletcher Sims - compost, Rodale handbook of compost, and guide to on farm composting by NRAES. Throw in some light reading of Albrecht's papers on soil chemistry and follow up with Kinsey's - Hands on Agronomy. 

That should get you a good start !


----------



## heavyrebel

SO, I guess you all will really appreciate this: In addition to the horse manure I am finding all around my place that neighbors want to be rid of, I have found a huge supply of produce from a couple produce markets. They have dumpsters full of great stuff for the animals and whats questionable or down right bad goes into one of the two piles I have going.

So now I have a great supply of sawdust, produce and manure...I should have new soil yet!

But, I am starting think I need a large trailer/wagon and a small compact tractor. THere are lots of things I cant get because I dont have access to the larger means of transport...


----------



## Freya

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> Forerunner, thanks to you, I am lusting after this...
> 
> http://hickory.craigslist.org/grd/2673528582.html



That looks big enough to throw a couple of cows in! :rock:


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Forerunner said:


> "Know-what-Ah-mean ?" Ernest


So THAT'S what happened to Ernest T!! :whistlin: 

:duel:


----------



## jotobo

idigbeets said:


> I'd recommend Fletcher Sims - compost, Rodale handbook of compost, and guide to on farm composting by NRAES. Throw in some light reading of Albrecht's papers on soil chemistry and follow up with Kinsey's - Hands on Agronomy.
> 
> That should get you a good start !


Thanks man.

I just picked up the Rodale book.


----------



## heavyrebel

Ken Scharabok said:


> If you know of anyone who cuts a lot of metal with a bandsaw ask for their cuttings. About sand grain size. Just sprinkle on compost pile. Will eventually completely rust, turning into iron oxide, something plants need anyway.


A much easier place to find this than a random bandsaw is any local auto shop. Thier brake lathe makes perfect metal shavings, and they will HAPPILY let YOU dump them out, cleanly, and take them away!


----------



## jotobo

heavyrebel said:


> A much easier place to find this than a random bandsaw is any local auto shop. Thier brake lathe makes perfect metal shavings, and they will HAPPILY let YOU dump them out, cleanly, and take them away!


Couldnt there be a danger of asbestos doing this?


----------



## Chris.

I just read all 44 pages, and this is somewhat inspring. I'm going to college in a couple years, so no major soil fertility building, but I did add 6 inches of horse poo to the back garden a few years back, and the soil is the nicest my mom has know it in the 20 some years she has lived here.


----------



## heavyrebel

jotobo said:


> Couldnt there be a danger of asbestos doing this?


They dont use Asbestos in brakes really anymore. THey are all Semi-Metallic and the better ones are Ceramic, so no.


----------



## notthereyet

Read through this entire thread, and it was enough to get me to register just to say thank you.

Now, Forerunner, I gotta tell you that you're a serious jerk. I went to bed last night thinking about spreading HUGE piles around, growing massive amounts of corn followed by massive amounts of leafy greens, followed by huge maters, taters, and every other kind of garden goodness. My mouth was literally watering thinking about chowing down on fresh picked fruits and veggies.

Nope, I don't like you at all. Go p*ss on a pile or something!

Seriously though, this has been a very inspirational thread. Now I just gotta go find me some land where I can start building some soil.

Thank you so much for sharing, you're a real treasure.


----------



## Forerunner

Gosh, NTY.....you made me blush. 

Sweet dreams, now. :thumb:

It's funny...... after I woke up and got moving on this endeavor, I couldn't stop wondering why I hadn't been moving in this direction with such intense focus, all along.
There really is not much else needs doin'.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

notthereyet said:


> Nope, I don't like you at all. Go p*ss on a pile or something!


You just made his day.

:buds:


----------



## JDog1222

Well, I cleaned out the sawmill of their sawdust today! :rock:


----------



## 4crumleys

I have been mixing my compost with a combination of dry leaves, green kitchen scraps, egg shells, and a little aged manure with shavings. I have been using a homemade barrel tumbler, but I cannot get it hot. Is it the tumbler? I know that Forerunner does not like them, what is the problem with them? Does their design not allow the heat to build up?
Just want to know before I get rid of it and put the compost in a pile.


----------



## Forerunner

JD........Why didn't you post that in the _Holiday Drawings - FREE 1-year Subscriptions to Backwoods Home_ sticky like you did the bone grinder video ? :shrug:












ound: :hysterical:ound: :hysterical:ound: :hysterical:ound: :hysterical:



Seriously though, I'm proud'uh'yuh.
I wish more armchair composters would take initiative like you did.
Give yourself a gold star. :thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

4crumleys said:


> I have been mixing my compost with a combination of dry leaves, green kitchen scraps, egg shells, and a little aged manure with shavings. I have been using a homemade barrel tumbler, but I cannot get it hot. Is it the tumbler? I know that Forerunner does not like them, what is the problem with them? Does their design not allow the heat to build up?
> Just want to know before I get rid of it and put the compost in a pile.


You need the mass of a larger pile to give the thermophilic bacteria their preferred environment. The tumbler will do a fantastic job mixing the material, but you'll need to build a bigger pile....seeing to adequate moisture content, then get back to us in a few days. You're blend sounds heavenly.


----------



## JDog1222

[FONT=&quot]Awe shucks [/FONT][FONT=&quot]:kiss:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]and I even got to see FR himself[/FONT][FONT=&quot], THERE :stars: [/FONT][FONT=&quot], the compost KING, when I went to get their last load. WOW, what a day! :spinsmiley:[/FONT]


----------



## JDog1222

"Is it the tumbler? I know that Forerunner does not like them, what is the problem with them?"

SURE he likes them, he crawls inside mine all the time, and makes me crank the handle REALLY fast for REALLY long periods of time, ALL the time! rincess:


----------



## Studhauler

A month latter I am finally getting around to posting about building our compost pile. First we hand raked the leaves were they were the heaviest in our yard. We loaded them onto our old plow truck.





The next day I went over to the township "compost pile" (they burn it when it gets to big). I hauled home a trailer load of mostly grass. The deck on the trailer is 8 X 25'. It was hard to get to because most of the summer grass had been burnt, and the leaves were piled in-front of what grass there was. The leaves a re pile about bumper deep, but I have fun with the suburban getting to the grass. I use a pitch fork to load the trailer. I piled this grass on top of the leaves that we had raked the day before. 



Next we rented a riding mower with a leaf vacuum. I spent one very full day mowing and dumping the leaves and grass from the 5 acres that the wife has us mowing. Dumping didn't work so well, I dug the leaves out of the trailer with a potato fork. This was a mix of leave and some green grass. 



We ran the garden hose over it for about an hour to get it moist. I hoped that mother nature would provide more water, but she didn't. I pushed the pile together with the old plow truck.





We found on dead raccoon on the highway, so we haul it home. To amuse her 4 year old boy I name the **** Stinker, and we buried him in the pile. Every time we go out to the pile he sakes about Stinker. We tried to get a pick-up load of manure but the farmers near us had all cleaned up for the winter and spread their manure already.

I used the plow to stock pile some carbon that I liberated from the side of the road.





I leave for about a month for work, the wife tells me that the pile is steaming on some mornings, but I get home and the pile seams dead. It is very dry. No steam. It doesn't appear that anything has started to break down.

I run the garden hose for a couple of hours. I borrowed Dads compact tractor and turn the whole pile. I am surprised at how dry the pile is inside. A few days later I watered it for a couple of more hours again. Barrow the tractor again to turn the pile once more. I lift a bucket load up about half-way; then I get off the tractor and walk to the pile and feel it. IT IS HOT! :happy: YEAH! 

It was probably hot the whole time I was home but didn't know it until I dug into the middle of the pile. The place were it was hot is were we buried Stinker. I can not find Stinker in the pile. Realizing the pile is low on nitrogen I put table scraps and dog poop into the pile. The neighbor will put their dog poop in the pile also. Living in the country, I would have never guessed that I would be shoveling dog poop, but the dog is old and don't want to walk out of the yard. I hope someone will clean up after me when I am old.


----------



## Forerunner

JDog1222 said:


> [FONT=&quot]Awe shucks [/FONT][FONT=&quot]:kiss:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]and I even got to see FR himself[/FONT][FONT=&quot], THERE :stars: [/FONT][FONT=&quot], the compost KING, when I went to get their last load. WOW, what a day! :spinsmiley:[/FONT]


Yeah, the irony...... those logs I was delivering will be the sawdust you pick up _next_ week.


----------



## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> A month latter I am finally getting around to posting about building our compost pile. First we hand raked the leaves were they were the heaviest in our yard. We loaded them onto our old plow truck.
> 
> The next day I went over to the township "compost pile" (they burn it when it gets to big). I hauled home a trailer load of mostly grass. The deck on the trailer is 8 X 25'. It was hard to get to because most of the summer grass had been burnt, and the leaves were piled in-front of what grass there was. The leaves a re pile about bumper deep, but I have fun with the suburban getting to the grass. I use a pitch fork to load the trailer. I piled this grass on top of the leaves that we had raked the day before.
> 
> 
> Next we rented a riding mower with a leaf vacuum. I spent one very full day mowing and dumping the leaves and grass from the 5 acres that the wife has us mowing. Dumping didn't work so well, I dug the leaves out of the trailer with a potato fork. This was a mix of leave and some green grass.
> 
> We ran the garden hose over it for about an hour to get it moist. I hoped that mother nature would provide more water, but she didn't. I pushed the pile together with the old plow truck.
> 
> 
> We found on dead raccoon on the highway, so we haul it home. To amuse her 4 year old boy I name the **** Stinker, and we buried him in the pile. Every time we go out to the pile he sakes about Stinker. We tried to get a pick-up load of manure but the farmers near us had all cleaned up for the winter and spread their manure already.
> 
> I used the plow to stock pile some carbon that I liberated from the side of the road.
> 
> I leave for about a month for work, the wife tells me that the pile is steaming on some mornings, but I get home and the pile seams dead. It is very dry. No steam. It doesn't appear that anything has started to break down.
> 
> I run the garden hose for a couple of hours. I borrowed Dads compact tractor and turn the whole pile. I am surprised at how dry the pile is inside. A few days later I watered it for a couple of more hours again. Barrow the tractor again to turn the pile once more. I lift a bucket load up about half-way; then I get off the tractor and walk to the pile and feel it. IT IS HOT! :happy: YEAH!
> 
> It was probably hot the whole time I was home but didn't know it until I dug into the middle of the pile. The place were it was hot is were we buried Stinker. I can not find Stinker in the pile. Realizing the pile is low on nitrogen I put table scraps and dog poop into the pile. The neighbor will put their dog poop in the pile also. Living in the country, I would have never guessed that I would be shoveling dog poop, but the dog is old and don't want to walk out of the yard. I hope someone will clean up after me when I am old.


Sounds like a very politically incorrect and totally socially dysfunctional family, Studhauler. Yer gunna ruin that boy for the socialist welfare state, providing him with that hands-on proactive spirit. :thumb:

Let that be a lesson to all of yuh....... _moisture and nitrogen_. Don't come home without 'em.


----------



## Forerunner

JDog1222 said:


> "Is it the tumbler? I know that Forerunner does not like them, what is the problem with them?"
> 
> SURE he likes them, he crawls inside mine all the time, and makes me crank the handle REALLY fast for REALLY long periods of time, ALL the time! rincess:


:yawn:

*gestures discreetly toward JD and whispers*

She's really weird.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

JDog1222 said:


> "Is it the tumbler? I know that Forerunner does not like them, what is the problem with them?"
> 
> SURE he likes them, he crawls inside mine all the time, and makes me crank the handle REALLY fast for REALLY long periods of time, ALL the time! rincess:


And I'm sure you happily oblige him!! :hobbyhors

Spinning around in a compost tumbler comes in 2nd only to running around in tight little circles shouting 'wooohooo!'


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> Yer gunna ruin that boy for the socialist welfare state, providing him with that hands-on proactive spirit.


Even more than a good compost pile, thats my goal.


----------



## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> Even more than a good compost pile, thats my goal.


We may be related. :thumb:


----------



## Studhauler

How often should a pile be turned for best results in a short amount of time? How long does it take to make compost in a tumbler & and how often does it get tumbled?

Thanks


----------



## Forerunner

I find that my piles decompose quick just being built in good balance and moisture.
I don't turn them if they're working.
The only times my piles get turned is when I'm moving them elsewhere for some reason, or when I know I stockpiled a mass with a high N or a high C content, and time and material have finally allowed for building a more balanced pile.
From the materials you described collecting and using to build your piles, if they are heating well, I'd say leave 'em be. 

As for a tumbler.....no one who is serious about compost should ever get within several yards of one. Some of us more experienced and confident types do joke around about them on occasion, poking the occasional fun at those wet behind the ears enough to actually have made such a purchase......

I think God intended compost to be piled.


----------



## justincase

WOW this was amazing thank you forerunner. My hibby and I just started a compost pile. We have a small garden and we deal with sand and clay also. I am like a dog with a bone and i do things without letting up. I even have the neighbor saving her scraps for me. Now make no mistake my compost heap started a few days ago with a lil bit of horsey poop and some kitchenscraps mine is a mole hill NAH an ant hill compared to yours...I covet your dirt Forerunner....Thanx again for a great story I LOVED IT


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## Freya

The BEST part of being spun really fast is that the vomit will be compostable too. ound:


----------



## Oswego

Its strange how a subject like this can be so captivating. I started reading this thread Saturday and it took until Sunday night but I read it all the way through as well as going off on some side links along the way. 
Always talked about making compost but never got started, after seeing this thread I have to do something if for no other reason than to have an excuse to come back to this thread.






What is all the white stuff in the pictures? Have not seen anything like that here in SE Alabama(15 miles from Fl) other than cotton picking time.


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## "SPIKE"

Thank you Forerunner, and all others who contributed, for this thread. It is a great read. It is not only an informative How To, but it also has drama, tragedy, triumph and comedy.
I do compost, but not on your scale! I guess I do not think big enough and do not have all the right toys. LOL

SPIKE


----------



## Forerunner

Oswego and "SPIKE" ........ yuh gotta start somewhere. :thumb:

Glad you enjoyed the read.

My inspiration comes from a short passage in the KJB.........Ecclesiastes 9:10.
Dark wisdom like that just makes me wanna get out there and kick up another pile. :bouncy:


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## MullersLaneFarm

Dang, now you have me running to my God book

I read Ecc 8:10 and said 'What!?!?!?", then went on to the next chapter!! 9:10



> Whatever your hand finds to do, do _it _with your might; for _there is _no work or device or knowledge or wisom in the grave where you are going.


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## Studhauler

So the dog dragged home a dead seagull, the wife threw it into the edge of the woods, when she told me about it I ask why she didn't burry it next to stinker. She told me she had forgot :shrug:. About a week after it was dragged home she went to put in into the compost pile. Our 4 year old asked her, when she picked it up with the shovel, "Are we going to put it in the pile with Stinker?" 

Yeah :nanner: one of them has composting figured out.


----------



## Forerunner

I still get a kick out of the name, "Stinker".


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## Lloyd J.

Forerunner said:


> As for a tumbler.....no one who is serious about compost should ever get within several yards of one. Some of us more experienced and confident types do joke around about them on occasion, poking the occasional fun at those wet behind the ears enough to actually have made such a purchase......


What if a guy built one?

Multi-tumbler

:happy:

Lloyd


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## Lloyd J.

...or two?

Home built tumbler

Lloyd


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## Forerunner

*thumps chest*

I might not like your tumbler(s).....but I would happily die fighting for your right to build and use them.


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## MullersLaneFarm

You're doing a lot of chest thumping lately ... must be wearing one of your sweaters to not get bruising!! 
:gaptooth:


----------



## Forerunner

Nope. Gave one away yesterday, though.....along with a nine foot mohair scarf. :thumb:


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## Oswego

Been waiting for a pic of a used Concrete Truck being used as a compost tumbler. Surely someone with access to one also makes compost.


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## taylorlambert

I once worked on a compost tumbler that was made from a 10 000 gallon tank that was an inch thick. THe waste went in one end and we fabricated a large internal spiral that went to the other end. It was geared with 2 transmissions. It was loaded with materials and the tumbler turned on and rotated at 3 rpm while being loaded. Then when stopped and it sat for a few days a timer turned it on a few revs a per day Then when it was finished it would run reverse and auger the material out. 


Im wanting to build a windrow turner like a brownbear skid steer mount.


----------



## 3350Snyder

Captivating â¦â¦ I tell you, this thread is captivating. Iâve spent the last few days reading it from the beginning to the end. Thanks to all who have contributed for the inspiration. I love the photos of massive piles and the equipment used to make them. :goodjob:

Iâve been composting most of my life, and agree with the methods discussed here. When I was a kid, I helped my grandfather compost the horse manure from the stables. He had some really big piles and Iâve always thought that was the way to go. Iâve spent the last few decades of my life traveling across this country, living in smaller houses, so my composting efforts have been limited by real estate to relatively small piles. Iâve recently come back to southeast PA to inherit the family farm, and I need to get those big compost piles going again!

I am blessed to inherit my grandfatherâs many years of hard work building up the soil, and his old tractor. I hope your descendants will appreciate your work like I appreciate his. When I was younger, I took for granted the great composted soil, until I started traveling and saw how poor the soil was elsewhere.

Iâve also inherited a large pile of scrap wood (probably 20âW x 30âD x 8âH). Itâs composed of 3â long pieces of 2x4 ends from the old sawmill. In addition to that, there is a fair amount of brushwood (<4â diameter) that I need to clear. Can anyone recommend a chipper/shredder that I could use to turn this scrap wood into a pile of sawdust for a carbon reserve? I donât know if a standard hydraulic infeed will properly handle such small pieces, and I wonder about a leaf shredding hopper jamming up. It would be great if the same machine could take care of my brushwood as well. Iâd prefer gasoline powered or 3PH PTO so I can make my reserve piles on the spot around the property. Any recommendations would be appreciated. :help:


----------



## Studhauler

So I ask the little guy, "Would you rather go see the construction truck and forklift that just drove by and is working down the road or go shovel dog poop into a bucket and put it in the compost pile?" He choose the poop. Now we have a little composter on our hands. This picture is taken one month after adding water to the pile. I was glad to see the steam. After digging into the pile it is warm to the touch on a 20 degree day. I am guessing about 100 degrees.


----------



## Chris.

hey forerunner-

Merry christmas, and happy compost filled new year.


----------



## Trisha in WA

3350Snyder, welcome! Glad you found us bunch of crazy composters here. 

studhauler, that is awesome!!! both the steam and the young compost lover. Good work.


----------



## Coloneldad5

WOW!! :shocked::bow:

What can I say, I started reading this from the beginning and after 7 pages and it was only in the first month I had to see just how many pages someone could post on composting. I'm amazed that in under two years it's up to 45 pages. 

I have just purchased 13 acres and built a house on it, I plan to start a small farm and had anticipated doing composting to build it up. It already is fairly good soil but as I am a believer in composting I figured it would only help. I had envisioned a 'grand' scale of composting setting up several bins that would be about 20x40 area. Boy I thought I was going big doing this. Oh, how wrong I was, I am duely humbled. I see that I need to start looking bigger and grander in my endeavors. 

I learned about composting as a kid, we had a small garden in the back yard. When we moved in to the newly constructed house we discovered that the builders were nice enough to dig down and bring up the clay below to cover the topsoil. We ended up with a couple of feet of clay on top of what used to be decent farmland. Well the folks decided to start a garden and so we worked it. I can remember my dad fighting with the brand new Troybilt Horse trying to till it up. After some initial backbreaking attempts, he realized that it might be easier if he watered it good and then let it sit for a few days to semi dry. That made it easier but it was still tough work to till that clay up. The garden didn't do all that well for the first few years, however my mother made sure that all scraps from the dinner table and food spoilage went into the garden. I can still remember going out in the middle of the winter to dig a small hole to bury the food. We had orange rinds and such showing up each spring as we tilled for years. Slowly but surely it started to pay off. The soil got easier to till and work, and it got brown and then started going black. By the time I went to college, it was very nice and easily produced a hefty selection of goods. And so I know it works and is the best way to replenish the soil and keep it healthy. 

The problem I have is that the county dump keeps the organic matter to compost themselves and then sells it off. I purchased a couple of truckloads this past spring to fix up my old house to sell. At $30 a pick up load it wasn't too bad, but considering that they were charging to drop it off and then to pick it up, they had a decent racket going on. I'll have to start looking for opportunities in my area. I know that there is a dairy farm a couple of miles from the house and so I'll have to go visit them and see what I can get. Sawdust might be difficult to find, but hay shouldn't be too hard as that is a very common product in the area. It'll probably be a couple of years before I get my own manuer producers, but I'll see what I can do for now.

Thanks for starting this Forerunner I have really enjoyed it and will in time work my way through the whole thread to get caught up and learn a bit more.


----------



## Coloneldad5

Ok, so now after a few days of heavy reading I have finally completed the assigned study material. :nanner:

I've spoken with the wife about this and she is telling me that I am only learning something she's been trying to :frypan: get me to recognize for a while. I don't know about that :teehee: as I have been a believer in composting all along, but I guess it's the methods that she was trying to beat into me. Now I'm trying to figure out how and where I am going to get the necessary components to get started. As I am 8000 miles away at the moment and probably won't be home until spring time all I get to do for now is to dream of what I want to do. 

As I don't think I'll be able to get much on to things this year, I am looking to set up the piles that will be used next year. My soil is already somewhat black decent, however I believe that it could use a good shot of compost to really spike it along. I am hoping that by this fall I can establish one or two piles (I'm looking at them being 60-70 yards long) and get them to start cooking for next spring. I hope to do this right where I plan on using it and then the plan would be to just spread it out and then work it in. Now that I've done the hard work :zzz: ound: I guess it's time to figure out the 'easy' part. That being I am slightly less equiped than frontrunner was starting out. I do have a Ford truck (3/4 ton) and shovels, but not much more. I'm hoping to find me a decent tractor with a frontloader which will make things a lot easier. 

Well, I guess I have some big shoes (er piles) to fill as I try to jumpstart my homestead:walk:.


----------



## heavyrebel

well, im a little frustrated: I have a nice pile I built about 4 months ago (added to until last month) and its just not getting hot. Its so not hot that I have essentially created a very large red ant hill. I added water last week, since it seemed dry. I spread it a little thinking that might help. 

The pile is composed of manure, sawdust, food waste, chicken bedding, shredded paper and more manure (horse and cow). The pile is about 10 x 10 x 3 foot tall. I tried to layer it properly and add fairly equal parts of everything. SHould I turn it and start it over? Thats harder than it sounds with the local ants thinking they own it!


----------



## Studhauler

Heavyrebel, I am new to this myself but, try stacking your pile higher, shovel the ends up on top of the middle. I learned they take ALOT of water.


----------



## Studhauler

Heavyrebel, I am new to this myself but, try stacking your pile higher, shovel the ends up on top of the middle. I learned they take ALOT of water. Good luck.

How do I delete a post?


----------



## am1too

Coloneldad5 said:


> Ok, so now after a few days of heavy reading I have finally completed the assigned study material. :nanner:
> 
> I've spoken with the wife about this and she is telling me that I am only learning something she's been trying to :frypan: get me to recognize for a while. I don't know about that :teehee: as I have been a believer in composting all along, but I guess it's the methods that she was trying to beat into me. Now I'm trying to figure out how and where I am going to get the necessary components to get started. As I am 8000 miles away at the moment and probably won't be home until spring time all I get to do for now is to dream of what I want to do.
> 
> As I don't think I'll be able to get much on to things this year, I am looking to set up the piles that will be used next year. My soil is already somewhat black decent, however I believe that it could use a good shot of compost to really spike it along. I am hoping that by this fall I can establish one or two piles (I'm looking at them being 60-70 yards long) and get them to start cooking for next spring. I hope to do this right where I plan on using it and then the plan would be to just spread it out and then work it in. Now that I've done the hard work :zzz: ound: I guess it's time to figure out the 'easy' part. That being I am slightly less equiped than frontrunner was starting out. I do have a Ford truck (3/4 ton) and shovels, but not much more. I'm hoping to find me a decent tractor with a frontloader which will make things a lot easier.
> 
> Well, I guess I have some big shoes (er piles) to fill as I try to jumpstart my homestead:walk:.


I think the best and cheapest tool you could aquire would be a manure fork. It simply beats a shovel to pieces. They're bout $35 and worth twice that. I can load 6-7n yards of material in about half the time it takes someone to load a pick up with a shovel. It takes me about the same time as someone loading 3-4 30 gallon trash cans. Love it when I can get loaded with a 3 to 7 yrd front end loader.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Coloneldad5 said:


> I've spoken with the wife about this and she is telling me that I am only learning something she's been trying to :frypan: get me to recognize for a while.


I am totally in tune with this. I've been composting for many decades. Trying to get my DH into the compost frame of mind is another discussion. I'm lucky if I get a sheet compost on the gardens in the fall that I can work into the gardens come spring time.

DH will fill the manure spreader and go out to spread on our alfalfa field or our neighboring seed corn field instead of piling it up and letting it compost.

DH said he 'got it' after Carla Emery's husband explained it to him when Don & Carla were here in '03, but it didn't change DH's ways.

After Forerunner being here a few times, DH finally let a pile of manure & straw sit and stew. It's about half of what it was when DH piled it up... just need to get FR up here to tell him to spread it on the garden (instead of in the west pasture). Yes, I could tell him (and have) but it would mean more from FR ... besides, I need my carder back!!!


----------



## Coloneldad5

I think I do have a manure fork somewhere, but will probalby have to get a few more so each of the kids can join in (as well as perhaps some of their friends ) I'll also have to look at Mudburns method of clearing for the truck and trailers. As soon as I can get home I'll be scouring the neighborhood for potential sources of C and N. :happy: How much C and N does it take to make a windrow 200' long, and 10' high? :teehee: 

I'm thinking a good trailer is in order as well.


----------



## Forerunner

How endearing to see the conversations and progress that ensue in my absence. 

I've been in Texas these last two weeks, drawing upon my extreme nature to box in a 16 by 32 cabin for Ernie and his family. Record time if I do say so, and the best job of squaring a steel roof that I've ever done. 

The Texas drought didn't impress me much. It rained eight inches around the Brownwood area just before we arrived, and a couple inches while we were there. :indif:

There is a watershed ditch, of sorts, that runs through Ernie's land, and the flow from the heavy rains deposited quite a bit of vegetable matter and dried cow manure from the pasture ground upstream....so....presto, instant desert composting operation.
I insisted that we procure some five gallon buckets and pitchfork, ASAP, and we began to haul the moist and rich organic material from the "banks" of the occasional watershed. The pile grew quickly to a little over a pickup truck load. After that, we got busy building the cabin. I hope Ernie and the boys keep their pile going and build several more. There is certainly plenty of potential in the drought-stricken Texas for coming up with materials. There is also no better way to conserve water than to build enough compost mass to handle all the greywater and blackwater that the homestead can generate.....

Waste not/want not. I rest my case.


----------



## Oswego

My first compost pile has HEAT. Its only two weeks old and I cheated. All I had was leaves, old wet pinestraw and some small woodchips. No nitrogen other than what small amounts that came out of the kitchen . I bought a bag of ammonia nitrate and sprinkled it in as I built my pile.
It was either cheat or not start until spring and after reading this whole thread there was no way I was going to wait.


----------



## Forerunner

We allow the occasional commercially manufactured catalyst.

Just don't be caught making a habit of it. :indif:

Have you looked into sawdust toilets ?
There's just nothing quite like home made......


----------



## Oswego

Forerunner said:


> We allow the occasional commercially manufactured catalyst.
> 
> Just don't be caught making a habit of it. :indif:
> 
> Have you looked into sawdust toilets ?
> There's just nothing quite like home made......


Thanks for the Pass on my first compost pile, I'll try not to let you down in the future.

It was a tough decision to cheat with the ammonia nitrate but could not handle having all the brown carbon and not wanting to wait to start the compost process.
Looking for some sawdust now for outdoor P-bucket for a continuing source of nitrogen.


----------



## How Do I

Forerunner said:


> ...
> _There's just nothing quite like home made_......


I don't know if it has been mentioned yet in the thread, but y'all can download the PDF ebook by googling 'humanure handbook'.


----------



## Oswego

Sorry, I'll stick to the Free advice


----------



## 4crumleys

Have decided to give up the barrel composting and go bigger. Have some pics but I have no idea how to post them here. Any help?


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## Forerunner

Go to Photobucket or another such pic hosting site and follow the yellow brick road.

Looking forward to the illustrations.


----------



## 4crumleys

I hope this works, here are some. The first is of the old barell, after getting some advice and finally listening, I will be giving this up and moving on to a larger pile.









The new bin is 6 ft wide, 5 ft high, and 5 ft wide. I have to keep everything neat and tidy as I live in a subdivision with restrictions.

Here are some of my new ingredients, 4 large truck loads of tree chips delivered for free.









And last is the garden spot. Three raised beds for now, and one more to put in for cucumbers.


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## 4crumleys

http://s1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee473/4crumleys/

cant get the pics to work, here is a link


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> Thanks for the Pass on my first compost pile, I'll try not to let you down in the future.
> 
> It was a tough decision to cheat with the ammonia nitrate but could not handle having all the brown carbon and not wanting to wait to start the compost process.
> Looking for some sawdust now for outdoor P-bucket for a continuing source of nitrogen.


Just do a trucker job. It was a real bummer to get dressed to walk 500 ft to the toilet. All truckers have at least one p bottle available. My pile gets a shot weekly of more than just an occasional I'm close to it dose.


----------



## Forerunner

4crumleys said:


> http://s1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee473/4crumleys/
> 
> cant get the pics to work, here is a link


Let's see if I can help....










































Glad you finally listened. Where did you get all the good advice ? :shrug:

Excellent pictorial representations, by the way..........


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## 4crumleys

Will be going to get some horse manure and shaving mix tomorrow to add with my wood chips. Got any recommendations on a ratio of mix?


----------



## Forerunner

Good question. A lot of the horse bedding I get is already pretty carbon rich.
If it smells like urea, and has adequate moisture, you might get away with a half and half mix with your wood chips. If there is only a light odor, you might try composting it in a separate pile for an object study of your own.


----------



## 4crumleys

The horse manure was fresh, wet, and mixed with shavings and straw. I mixed it at a 4:1 ration of manure to wood-chips, and supplemented it with 10 lbs of ammonium nitrate. Wet the whole pile down and will wait to see how it works.


----------



## Studhauler

4crumleys, Great pictures, thanks.


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner, if I remember right, you used to use a wood-chipper for your compost piles. Why did you stop using it? We have lots of dead-fall trees on our property and I am considering getting a wood-chipper to clean-up the property and make compost.


----------



## Studhauler

With my current job I have lots of time for planning and little time for projects at home. I am looking into the idea of building a 3 bay concrete compost bin. Below is a picture of The one at the University of Minnesota.
Link to their website http://www1.extension.umn.edu/dairy/manure/onfarm-composting-101/



Wikipedia states not to use concrete as a compost bin? Why do you suppose that is? I think Forerunner should add his insight to Wikipedia post on compost.

My plan is to make three bins, each one will be 9 feet wide so I can get a tractor bucket in (I might get a big tractor someday). The pad will be sloped to the open side, there will be an apron about 1 to 2 feet past the side-walls. This will be sloped up, so any water runoff from the pile will drain off the concert pad. This runoff water will be collected in an underground storage tank and then pumped to the garden. I will not put a roof on like the U of M did, so rain water can keep the pile moist. I can tarp it if I need to durning periods of drouth in the hot summer. What Am I missing? Each bin will be 9 by 9 with 3 or 4 foot high concrete side walls. Or should the concrete sidewalls be lower and make the uppers out of wood with voids so the pile can breath better?


----------



## Forerunner

I don't know why anyone would recommend against concrete for compost bins, lest it be an Agenda 21 conspiracy against anything permanent, durable and with purpose. 
My concrete walls are 5 feet high and I might wish they were 7..... but your idea of using wood to gain some height isn't bad. Just figure on replacing that wood every few. If you can incorporate stainless steel mounting hardware between concrete and wood, you'll eliminate another future inconvenience. 
I quit using the chipper for several reasons....
Fuel cost was one, maintenance another......Canton municipal yard waste dump was the big one; I can get all the carbon I'll even need, there.
I guess the most imposing reason is that I loaned my big chipper to a friend in Missouri some years ago....and he still has it. 
I did enjoy my wood chipping, but there are cheaper alternatives available to me now.

I am thoroughly enjoying your energy, Studhauler. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Studhauler

Edit of my last post; The link to the Wikipedia site: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost What I didn't realize is that is was on the "Simple English" side of Wikipedia, the full version has a lot more info.

Thanks for the complement Forerunner. I have a lot of plans, I just hope I live long enough to get them done. How thick are your walls on your concrete bins? I was originally thinking slotted wood walls so the pile can breathe better; it also has the benefit of being more aesthetically pleasing to me and the neighbors. 

I recently bought a lot on the Tennessee River, I hand dug a hole 4 feet deep to place a utility pole. It was rich black dirt all the way to the bottom. I wish we had that at home, but then again, this lot floods every couple of years.


----------



## 4crumleys

I completed my new compost pile, and having combined moist fresh horse manure and shavings, along with some chipped trees, and added ammonium nitrate. Had a long soaking rain yesterday, went to the pile today and have a very strong ammonia smell. Is that good or bad? 
Pile is getting warm in the middle, do I need to add something else to it?


----------



## Forerunner

My compost bin walls are roughly 8 inches thick where there is no support strength needed, and 12 inches thick where I wanted some extra strength to hold a water tower some day........

Crumleys..... if you got heat, yer doing good.
Let the pile air a bit, and if that urea odor persists, add another 6 inches or so of wood chips. From the sound of it, you may not have needed to add the extra nitrogen.


----------



## 4crumleys

Forerunner said:


> My compost bin walls are roughly 8 inches thick where there is no support strength needed, and 12 inches thick where I wanted some extra strength to hold a water tower some day........
> 
> Crumleys..... if you got heat, yer doing good.
> Let the pile air a bit, and if that urea odor persists, add another 6 inches or so of wood chips. From the sound of it, you may not have needed to add the extra nitrogen.


Ok, thanks, I will check it again tomorrow, raining again here, so I may need to cover it up if this rain continues.
On a side note, when to check out your wifes blog and could not find it. Has it been discontinued?


----------



## Forerunner

Discontinued for now, anyway.
She has a 17 month old that keeps her hopping.


----------



## Oswego

Since my pile was hot I mixed in all my remaining browns(old wood chips) and added the rest of my nitrogen(store bought) last weekend. Today the temp was over 120 degrees. Pile is about 6' L x 5' W x 4' T and seems to be shrinking. 
Tractors with frontend buckets sure come in handy


----------



## Forerunner

I'd be pretty concerned about that pile shrinking......laying awake nights, even. 
Then, if I were in your shoes, I'd get up the next morning and scrounge up the material to triple it's size. :thumb:

Front end loaders...... well, they are a gift from God.


----------



## Coloneldad5

My front end loaders? I use the old fashion term: "Boys" and "Shovels"


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## Oswego

One child, Daughter, and she is in Grad school so I adopted a tractor.


----------



## Forerunner

Coloneldad5 said:


> My front end loaders? I use the old fashion term: "Boys" and "Shovels"


........and pitchforks. 

People uninitiated are usually surprised how fast and how much really can be accomplished via good, old-fashioned sweat and callouses.

I never take a diesel engine--nor hydraulic system-- for granted.....


----------



## Freya

I think you need a new pic of you and a pitchfork for your avatar. Maybe Lori could add in some embellishment to make it festive? :gaptooth: :lookout:


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## gimpyrancher

Just want to say hello. Far to tired to post much. BUT, I am so darn happy to have found this group of crazies. I'll fit right in. I'll return to get advice on my 160 acres (Klamath Falls, OR) of second growth pine trees. Soil sucks and it appears this is my answer. After a night's sleep. :yuck:


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## Forerunner

I just love this thread. 

Gimpy....looking forward to chatting with your mug in the a.m.....have a cup of coffee, already. 

Freya..... I've considered the avatar thing, and, the space allotted here for such frivolity is so darn small that I just gave up. :indif:


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## gimpyrancher

forerunner,

:flameproofundies: Since I might as well be honest, you are crazy! If for no other reason than starting something that took 47 pages to get me here. 

:clap: But you are definitely my kind of crazy. I wasn't sure I was going to get past one of my fellow Oregonians but that passed, so to speak. Then, much later, another nice Oregonian chimed in.

I have fairly worthless soil. Not much growing (except lodgepole pine) and nothing has ever been done to it. It's part of a much larger former cattle operation. But few hooves deposited anything where I am.

I thought the only way I would be able to improve the soil was through a MIG cattle grazing operation. Which would have meant a lot of new fencing. Now all I have to do is finish my one foundry fence and start collecting.

I must be impressed with what you're doing, otherwise why would I have continued to read, huh? I think the service you provide to everyone around and also be willing to take the heat in order to help others in other locations is something your parents would be proud of.

I look forward to getting the ball rolling. I'm 6 hours away from my property but plan on moving there full time next year. Got some surgeries to get first.

We are going to build our real log home with trees from the property. I'll likely be using much of my tree/wood debris in my compost. What a great way to benefit my new, underfunded community.


----------



## Forerunner

Ah, yes...... Oregon. I have known some of the best, and some of the worst of folk that Earth has to offer, from that state. 

I envy you your plans for a fresh beginning, building from scratch with materials gleaned on-site. 

I wholeheartedly admit..... from an Earthling perspective, I am textbook nuts.
From where I originally come from, and will someday again call home....all of what I do is normal. 

What composting resources have you close by ?


----------



## gimpyrancher

forerunner,

> What composting resources have you close by?

I don't know yet. Since I just finished my reading assignment, I haven't had a chance to look at things from this perspective. But I will. I have campgrounds nearby. I have museums (logging mostly). The nearest restaurant is only 16 miles. <smile> But the city I live in is extremely unfunded. No real city services. Closed logging company in town, closed bank. Closed courthouse. Pretty much closed everything. Perhaps they need someone to step up and make cleaning-up debris go away for them. I live directly off a major north/south highway so I'll probably be able to volunteer to collect bumper challenged wildlife from the highway for them. I'm sure I can find many sources of carbon in the surrounding hundreds of thousands of acres of forest woodlands. Where I have my property is an outdoors person's dream.

As you may get the idea, I am capable of seeing the forest through the trees. Especially thanks to you opening my eyes to a wonderful opportunity.


----------



## Forerunner

I would imagine whatever leadership that may be left in said local village might be pretty cooperative in setting up a central location for folks to dump yard waste....
Just so long as the opportunity was not abused by the locals.


----------



## gimpyrancher

I've made a living over the last 1.5 decades dealing with government administrators. I have every hope but I know it usually takes a while for people to get on board to making things better. That is why we have to do it. I'm up to the task and eager to get started. First on the agenda is gaining contacts. Every trip up to the property I'll make sure I stop at at least 3 possible sources on every trip I make. ig:


----------



## SteveO

Good morning, 
I'm totally new at this farming stuff. Trying to make a compost pile and it doesn't seem to be working. My DH built a wooden bin and I've added brown leaves, pine needles, hay, cow manure, vegetable and fruit scraps, rain water and lots of love but it isn't heating up. I am mixing it occasionally and it seems to be settling down into a heavy clump but I don't feel the heat. Any ideas? 
Thanks,
Mrs. O


----------



## Forerunner

My guess(es) would be.....possibly too much moisture....or, not enough mass to heat.
How big is your pile ?
Does it seem wet, dry, or just lightly moist ?


----------



## SteveO

We have had a lot of rain so the pile is wet. It is about 4' square by 2'deep. I didn't realize the amount of mass would make a difference.


----------



## am1too

SteveO said:


> We have had a lot of rain so the pile is wet. It is about 4' square by 2'deep. I didn't realize the amount of mass would make a difference.


Kinda depends on what it is. I've had fresh mowed grass get hot enough to burn your hand mid summer. That heap of grass sure looked all green to me.


----------



## Forerunner

A wet pile can be starved for oxygen, and ferment rather than heat.
Your pile may be a little small. 4 by 4 by 4 would be kind of a minimum.

I have seen that trash bag of fresh grass clippings get super hot, though, so the right mix can do wonders in small quantities.
Just keep fiddlin' with it until it gives up it's secret combo.....


----------



## Coloneldad5

SteveO, I'm thinking you may have too much carbon and not enough nitrogen. Perhaps a dead rat or racoon or two added in might start it working.


----------



## SteveO

Thanks all for the comments. They are helpful. I'll keep fiddlin' with it. Not with with dead rat or racoon, mind you. There's got to be a alternative source of nitrogen. lol
Mrs. O


----------



## bama

i am still working my way through all the pages on this post, but i have a question or two. background is that we built a pallet sided compost heap (we live in the middle of town and this is as big as i feel comfortable with right now)

1 - i don't have a source (yet) of animal manure. i do have litter boxes inside for the cats, but all the books say to avoid using cat litter. what do you think?

2. - my heap right now is just what little kitchen waste i have plus a bunch of old leaves. what else can i use? paper towels, cardboard, torn up junk mail? this might help me with my paper clutter issues! 

3 - it doesn't seem to be heating well. there are ants all over the pile. is this a problem? i tried worms in a cooler last year, but the ants got to them.  so i am thinking the ants need to go. . .or not???


----------



## Forerunner

Ants are indicative of a dry pile..... you may need to irrigate.
The size of your pile might be adequate if all others conditions can be met.
Your list of carbon materials is good, and the finer you shred them, the quicker they will compost.
Cat litter is fine compost material. If you have a good hot pile, cat litter can be quickly neutralized of it's supposed nasty characteristics..... otherwise, let it compost for a couple years to accomplish the same end.
You definitely want to pamper your worms...... they will work a cold pile to your advantage, but, like microbes, they need adequate moisture.
Moist...... but never wet. :thumb:


----------



## bama

thanks so much for your response!

i was worried that it might get too wet, since we have gotten so much rain in the last week. ants are a daily battle around here it seems. they invade all my pots, my house, my raised beds, and now my compost pile. grrr! LOL

what, besides the litter, will help add heat? i am hoping to get a bucket or two of poultry litter.


----------



## Forerunner

Any animal waste you can get 'hold of....kitchen scraps should add considerable nitrogen over time.....fresh lawn clippings.....dead ants........ :shrug:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Ants are indicative of a dry pile..... you may need to irrigate.
> The size of your pile might be adequate if all others conditions can be met.
> Your list of carbon materials is good, and the finer you shred them, the quicker they will compost.
> Cat litter is fine compost material. If you have a good hot pile, cat litter can be quickly neutralized of it's supposed nasty characteristics..... otherwise, let it compost for a couple years to accomplish the same end.
> You definitely want to pamper your worms...... they will work a cold pile to your advantage, but, like microbes, they need adequate moisture.
> Moist...... but never wet. :thumb:


So if I picked up some soggy wet stuff and mixed it in with my dry stuff it would even out wouldn't it? Otherwise I have wet and dry pockets. My thinking is that moisture creeps/wicks up and evaproates.


----------



## Forerunner

Sounds like one of the few reasons I would turn/remix a pile, Am1too.....

I've never had a well mixed and properly moist pile go dry on me..... but I always have plenty of mass and a good carbon shell to insulate.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Sounds like one of the few reasons I would turn/remix a pile, Am1too.....
> 
> I've never had a well mixed and properly moist pile go dry on me..... but I always have plenty of mass and a good carbon shell to insulate.


It isn't that I think the pile will go dry. I picked up some very wet material and was wondering about it. I kinda mixed a fork of very heavy water logged material with the dry material. I didn't mix it as in stir. More like layers. My pile is 6 ft wide 4ft high and prolly 8 ft long. More wet on the bottom.


----------



## Forerunner

The layers should rather meld together for moisture uniformity, but I have seen certain materials refuse that. Size wise, you should have enough material to work right, but, the more the merrier.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> The layers should rather meld together for moisture uniformity, but I have seen certain materials refuse that. Size wise, you should have enough material to work right, but, the more the merrier.


Well what I got was yard waste that has been through a tub grinder. It has a little bit of everything in it. I did take out the tennis and golf balls. When it fininshes I''ll sift out the rest. No tellin what I'll find.

It was sitting in a hole after the rain.


----------



## Forerunner

Well.

Tub grinder offal....... other than saturated, you should be all set. :indif:

Nobody lets _me_ clean up after a runaway tub grinder.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Well.
> 
> Tub grinder offal....... other than saturated, you should be all set. :indif:
> 
> Nobody lets _me_ clean up after a runaway tub grinder.


Yeah I should post a picture to make you jealous. In lar March or April I'll get to haul from a pile of black basicly finished compost that is 3 - 4 ft high covering a couple acres. There will still be a couple thousnad yards of raw grinder tub offal. Currently that pile is 20 plus ft tall and 75-100ft wide at the peak. Sure makes that 7 yrd front loader look small.

Do I see green eyes yet?


----------



## Forerunner

Nope. 

I'm gritting my teeth to withhold the envy...... but I sure am happy for Oklahoma..... the dry, flat, boring, limited opportunity state (as some have referred to it... _*I*_ know better). What a boon for those who wish to garden in that semi-arid region that is lacking in large quantities of organic matter. :thumb:


----------



## bama

I am proud to report that i broke into the pile this morning and there is steam! Lots of ants in the top layer, but there is progress!


----------



## Bluegrass2001

Total greenhorn question. BTW Forerunner I read Lori's blog for years until she stopped *sad face* so big fan here. Also Mudburn I would LOVE to visit your homestead. We are up in the Louisville area but moving one county over. 

Now for my greenie question: Has anyone here ever encountered "killer compost"? The horse poop that has the killer chemicals? The land we are buying has barn full of older (3+ years), spongy horse poop. We were really excited by this but want to make sure that it is ok to use in our first pile. 

Thank you for any help! I will be bugging you again soon!

Kat


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## Forerunner

I never met a horse turd I didn't like. :shrug:

Unless the manure you've stumbled onto was from some super-charged batch of race or show horses, I doubt there'd be ANY problem. If I were in your position, and _knew_ that the manure was tainted, I'd compost it separately, in such manner that I was assured of a long heat, and leave it sit an extra year. Then from what I understand, it would be good to go just about anywhere. Hot compost neutralizes just about everything, to some large degree or another.

I envy you your proximity to Mudburn. He has a building project I'd not mind touring, let alone the horticultural endeavors.......


----------



## Forerunner

bama said:


> I am proud to report that i broke into the pile this morning and there is steam! Lots of ants in the top layer, but there is progress!


How is that pile doing _now_, Bama ?
Did those ants ever get cooked out?

I'm in the midst of the annual winter sale barn manure glut, but, it's been mild enough, and even dry enough, a lot of the stuff is coming home already steaming from being piled in _their_ concrete bin.
I'll still need to add carbon to much of it, come spring, and then have some remixing to do. Thank God for whoever threw together the _front end loader_.


----------



## NorthTexasGuy

I have opportunity to get somewhat large quantities of tree service woodchips and feedlot manure. I know the woodchips make a somewhat harsh carbon source, but my supply of old hay is depleting. About how long could I expect a compost pile of only woodchips and manure to break down and become compost?

BTW - I put together a pile three days ago ~ 8ftx12ftx4ft of old hay and manure and it starting steaming yesterday. On the advice from Rodale's old book I put down a backbone of cardboard and old weeds ~ 1ft tall to start the pile and stacked old hay on either side of it to let the bottom breath. This is my first _real_ compost pile and to have it steaming after two days sure felt good.

Kyle


----------



## Forerunner

I'd be honored to have massive quantities of wood chips for the carbon base.......

Figure a year if you get good heat. There will be a few chunks left after that, but they'll be pretty benign in the soil.
Sounds like you built your pile right.
Burying a mess of weeds and cardboard is gratifying twice..... makes a great bed and eliminates a mess, otherwise. 

A foot thick base of wood chips will do exactly the same things.....absorb nitrogen, facilitate drainage and let the pile breathe....

Now you just need to go _bigger_. :bouncy:


----------



## NorthTexasGuy

Forerunner,

Thanks for the input on woodchips. I would prefer to use something that would breakdown in six months, but that's what's available currently. 

Bigger is definitely on the mind. I can tell that once this pile is finished it won't go very far between the garden and all the fruit trees. I'm blessed with good soil currently with a fair population of earthworms. Because of that I don't add any commercial fertilizer or pesticides, so compost it is. :thumb: From what I have read healthy vigorous plants are the key to reducing pest infestation, so the compost will help in that regard as well. I'm expanding the garden to include about 3/4 ac total. I built that pile with a pitchfork in an afternoon after gathering material that morning. The feedlot loaded me up with their skidsteer and I pushed the hay to the pile with a tractor/boxblade then assembled the pile with the pitchfork. Surprisingly the pitchfork wasn't the bad part - It took way too long to get enough hay with the boxblade.

I'm about to go crazy for the lack of a loader tractor. :hair Between my grandpa, dad, and myself we have 5 tractors. Only one is mine and it's an old 24 hp kubota. I'm only half owner, so I can't sell it. The two big Fords have loaders, but they have hay spears. I think I could put an old skidsteer or backhoe to good use if I could find one priced right. I also have to convince my wife that that I need to use funds to buy yet another tractor. I'm not sure she appreciates the amount of compost needed and the effort of putting a large pile together with a pitchfork.

Kyle


----------



## bama

Forerunner said:


> How is that pile doing _now_, Bama ?
> Did those ants ever get cooked out?
> 
> I'm in the midst of the annual winter sale barn manure glut, but, it's been mild enough, and even dry enough, a lot of the stuff is coming home already steaming from being piled in _their_ concrete bin.
> I'll still need to add carbon to much of it, come spring, and then have some remixing to do. Thank God for whoever threw together the _front end loader_.


not so good. still smells nice and earthy, but it cooled and they moved in deeper. impatiently waiting for some green stuff to grow enough to throw in there.


----------



## Forerunner

Hmmm.

I'm thinking that a five gallon bucket of cow pee would just do the trick......


----------



## Forerunner

I feel your pain, Kyle....... 
I have two thoughts in re your dilemma....no, make that three.

1. A loader with a bale spear can be readily converted to a loader with a bucket, IME.
2. There is a certain romance to be experienced, building a compost pile on a peaceful afternoon/evening....with nothing but a pitchfork in your hands and your bare upper torso glistening with the sweat of honest labor....
3. Your wife just needs to witness you in the act of #2..... 
That alone may bring her around to;
A. Appreciate the value of compost (among other things), and;
B. Understand the necessity of a loader tractor.

You see, as men, it is our responsibility to bring all aspects and details to work together, not at all unlike the conductor of a world class concert performance.
During the first rounds of practice, the awful screeching, whining, banging around and carrying on can be unsettling to the uninitiated.
But, with diligence and patience, the music begins to surface from within the maelstrom.

There is no worthy endeavor that can long withstand the vigorous onslaught of a determined man.


----------



## Mickey

Hmmm, now I'm wondering just how that 5 gallon bucket of cow pee figures into this beautiful romantic interlude.........................:hysterical:


----------



## Forerunner

Oh...... that was for Bama...... merely a suggestion for boosting nitrogen, moisture (and, if used fresh, temperature  ) in the pile.

I can see a young couple holding hands....making their way from the milking barn, fresh bucket of pee in the man's other hand, then pausing for a long, romantic kiss just before he pours the pee lovingly over the pile. 









Honest.















Just so long as they don't drink raw milk, of course!!


----------



## Mickey

EEEWWWWWW Poor Lori :yuck:


----------



## Coloneldad5

Forerunner said:


> 2. There is a certain romance to be experienced, building a compost pile on a peaceful afternoon/evening....with nothing but a pitchfork in your hands and your bare upper torso glistening with the sweat of honest labor....
> 3. Your wife just needs to witness you in the act of #2.....
> That alone may bring her around to;
> A. Appreciate the value of compost (among other things), and;
> B. Understand the necessity of a loader tractor.


I think just the smell of the manure pile lingering about you as you go to give you wife that romantic kiss along with a nice explanation as to how she'd be missing out on this romantic aroma if you had a tractor with a front loader to do the work.


----------



## bama

I think foreru nner just wants me to video myself, a city girl, trying to catch said cow pee in a bucket. Lol i can see it now, and it would definitely not be a pretty sight, but worth tons of chuckles!


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, fiddlesticks.

A cow has better aim than you might think.
That, and, a five gallon bucket makes for a big enough target. :indif:

But such video _would_ be a nice addition to the thread.


----------



## Mickey

Ummm, apparently bama such a video would be like "porn" to Forerunneround:


----------



## Forerunner

Alright. 


That does it. :indif:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfnopkT37I&ob=av2e[/ame]


----------



## Coloneldad5

Now here is something to get your composting dreams going.

"Fishermen to remove 40 million pounds of carp from Utah Lake"

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=14...ounds-of-carp-from-utah-lake&s_cid=featured-4


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## mudburn

I am in complete sympathy with Forerunner -- he is such a romantic sap. :cow: 

Cow pee in a 5-gallon bucket is a beautiful and romantic thing, evoking images and feelings of contentment and aesthetic well-being as two lovers stroll hand-in-hand to the compost pile, leading up to true communion, the climax of the moment, when the bovine urine rushes forth to saturate the pile, leaving a sense of satisfaction and that all is well in the world. :kissy: Who can't see the beauty in that, the primal perfection of the moment?

I'm convinced that cows are romantic creatures. They are so generous with basic fertility resources, gladly sharing them with those they love. The sheer magnitude of the amount is evidence of their sympathy for composting and their devotion to those who have truly caught the vision Forerunner has endeavored to share with us.

I need some quiet time to let the beauty of all of this sink in. I can feel the love.

mudburn


----------



## CesumPec

Coloneldad5 said:


> Now here is something to get your composting dreams going.
> 
> "Fishermen to remove 40 million pounds of carp from Utah Lake"
> 
> http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=14...ounds-of-carp-from-utah-lake&s_cid=featured-4


From the article, "The U.S. Bureau of Fisheries hauled barrels of live carp on trains and planted them in lakes around the country in the late 1880s. "

While I would love to have some of that fish for my compost pile, it just amazes me (I guess I should be used to it by now) how many times I see that the gov't created the problem in the first place.


----------



## Mickey

mudburn said:


> I am in complete sympathy with Forerunner -- he is such a romantic sap. :cow:
> 
> Cow pee in a 5-gallon bucket is a beautiful and romantic thing, evoking images and feelings of contentment and aesthetic well-being as two lovers stroll hand-in-hand to the compost pile, leading up to true communion, the climax of the moment, when the bovine urine rushes forth to saturate the pile, leaving a sense of satisfaction and that all is well in the world. :kissy: Who can't see the beauty in that, the primal perfection of the moment?
> 
> I'm convinced that cows are romantic creatures. They are so generous with basic fertility resources, gladly sharing them with those they love. The sheer magnitude of the amount is evidence of their sympathy for composting and their devotion to those who have truly caught the vision Forerunner has endeavored to share with us.
> 
> I need some quiet time to let the beauty of all of this sink in. I can feel the love.
> 
> mudburn


Oh no, not another one!!! :shocked: Cow pee, romance, :help: :tmi:


----------



## Coloneldad5

Mickey said:


> Oh no, not another one!!! :shocked: Cow pee, romance, :help: :tmi:


I would think that would be a task that he would want 'personal' involvement in although it might take a bit to fill a 5 gallon bucket that way.


----------



## Mickey

Colonel,
If you read thru this whole thread you'll see that he does indeed "commune with the pile" on a regular basis. Why I'll bet he's even trained his young'uns to join in :gaptooth: :hysterical:
eep:


----------



## Coloneldad5

Mickey,
That's precisely why I was wondering why he wasn't going to reserve the communing (hydration) to himself and his family versus bring a cow into the mix.


----------



## Forerunner

The cow pee idea was for Bama. :shrug:

She's a girl, see, and a _city girl_, at that.
She can't (yet) be fully expected to commune with her pile. :shrug:

The romantic inflections were for Mickey. Anybody who can throw up a video like that has _me_ convinced. :thumb:


----------



## Mickey

Why thank you  Let the peeing begin :cow: :rainprf:


----------



## Coloneldad5

Hey, everyone knows the Army slogan "Pee all that you can Pee!"

yeah I know I'm dating myself.


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

<feeling like a kid in class, waving my hand in the air>

Ooh, ooh - Mr. Forerunner?! My formerly clay and rock soil has... earthworms!! Yay!!! :bouncy:

We are small time here, but learning all the time. We compost about one pickup-size pile at a time - though I think we'll move to two this year, woo hoo! We use our kitchen scraps, shredded paper, cardboard, grass cuttings and leaves gleaned from the 'burbs, some pee pee, etc. We work hard to build up our single 8'x4'x4' pile each time (it's amazing how quickly it all breaks down).

Today I was chopping up part of the garden started last Spring - amended with our compost, a little sand and a little cow manure. And we have worms! For the very first time that I've seen, we have worms. 

I have two new tools, too - a garden fork and a 2.5 lb. mattock. I think I'll save for the 5 lb. mattock now, too - to break up new areas for planting.

And I'm thinking of putting our second compost pile on the spot I want to plant in the fall... I'm SO excited! Worms!!

I knew ya'll would understand .


----------



## Forerunner

:sob:


*wipes tears of joy*


Worms. 

*sniffle*

I'm sorry.

I usually don't tear up like this, save for weddings and stuff, but....well, you've got worms!!

I wanna send a gift and a card, or somethin', already.

I do understand, Jlrbhjmnc. (wow, that's _still_ a mouthful...or a keyboard full, all depending.....either way, there's just no good way to _pronounce_ it.  ))

I'll always get a kick out of the look on the faces of the uninitiated when I run my fingers through a fairly mature compost pile, just sitting there all benign and serene, only to have the mass I pull out come up wriggling with euphoric worms.
After that, why would _anybody_ wanna eat city food ? :shrug:


----------



## "SPIKE"

:bouncy::goodjob:

Yep, when the earth worms start showing up you know you are doing good!

I shall never forget my great grand mother showing me how to grow good soil. She could stick her hand into the ground like it had no resistance and when she pulled it out she would have a hand full of worms that looked like snakes they were so large!

I still really like this thread! Thanks for the memories it brought today.

SPIKE


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

<passing a slightly dusty hanky>

Sniff. Thank you. I know. I have worms! It's so good to be weird to the world and connected to the real.

One of the dear grandbabies was right there, too - she was digging in "her" end of the garden spot. She took it all in as perfectly normal (3 1/2 years old). Well, of course we have worms . Why not?

I know the screen name is annoying. Feel free to consider funny pronunciations. Perhaps one day I will come up with something better. But right now I have to rush through domestic stuff and get outside!


----------



## Freya

jlrbhjmnc said:


> I know the screen name is annoying. Feel free to consider funny pronunciations. Perhaps one day I will come up with something better. But right now I have to rush through domestic stuff and get outside!



I vote you ask a mod to change your name to, "I got Worms". :thumb:

Ok I dare you too. :nana:


----------



## Ky-Jeeper

I've watched this thread for some time now. I have composted around 14 years now on a small scale. I have built 5 30' raised beds using the krugelkulture method along with sheet composting. Worms worms worms with this method. pull back the soil and wow a nightcrawler it was gone in flash.

My ingredients
Dolomite lime, lots of maple leaves in two layers, a woody plant based compost from a local nursery, horse manure, rabbit manure, around a gallon of coffee grounds a week, Epson salt, alot of paper and cardboard, and worms I find on my property, old firewood and downed tree limbs, great leaf compost from Western Ky universitys farm, drier lint, food scrapes, peat moss, and any other worthy compostables. Missing bone meal now. I know I bought some ingredients, but the beds are great.

I don't have some of the ingredients that some of you have, but I'm trying. Great thread here with a lot of info and great outcomes.

Ky-Jeeper


----------



## bassmaster17327

What do I need to ad to rabbit manure to make it heat up? I was composting rabbit manure, chicken manure, straw and food scraps all together and it would get very hot. Now that I have more rabbits that makes up most of my compost material, I have a about a 4x4x4 pile of rabbit manure that I piled up but it will not heat up. I just left it sit for the last two months thinking that if it didnt heat up I would just till it into the garden but when i dug into it it was almost slimmy and smelled pretty bad


----------



## Ky-Jeeper

Air and carbon(browns).


bassmaster17327 said:


> What do I need to ad to rabbit manure to make it heat up? I was composting rabbit manure, chicken manure, straw and food scraps all together and it would get very hot. Now that I have more rabbits that makes up most of my compost material, I have a about a 4x4x4 pile of rabbit manure that I piled up but it will not heat up. I just left it sit for the last two months thinking that if it didnt heat up I would just till it into the garden but when i dug into it it was almost slimmy and smelled pretty bad


----------



## bassmaster17327

Thank you. I added some straw and mixed it up, it was really wet and we are supposed to get rain tonight so I put a tarp over it. How long should it take to start heating up?

I guess since it needs more carbon that I should not add any more urine


----------



## Bookwyrm76

:hijacked:

Got a question for you Forerunner, or any of the other Composting Masters out there.

I have an opportunity to get a 1/2 case of old (I mean from the 80's old!) Flintstones type chewable vitamins for free. (A friend of a friend found them in his grandmoms basement (apparently she was a hoarder), going through her stuff after she died.) She knew I like to compost for the garden, and thought the might be useful.

My question is would these be any good to use as compost? Should I forget it, or take em all, use a few what?

Thanks in advance!:thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

bassmaster17327 said:


> Thank you. I added some straw and mixed it up, it was really wet and we are supposed to get rain tonight so I put a tarp over it. How long should it take to start heating up?
> 
> I guess since it needs more carbon that I should not add any more urine


Definitely let that pile dry a little, i.e....no more moisture or wet materials. Adding the dry straw was good. Should be heating within a day or two.



Bookwyrm76 said:


> :hijacked:
> 
> Got a question for you Forerunner, or any of the other Composting Masters out there.
> 
> I have an opportunity to get a 1/2 case of old (I mean from the 80's old!) Flintstones type chewable vitamins for free. (A friend of a friend found them in his grandmoms basement (apparently she was a hoarder), going through her stuff after she died.) She knew I like to compost for the garden, and thought the might be useful.
> 
> My question is would these be any good to use as compost? Should I forget it, or take em all, use a few what?
> 
> Thanks in advance!:thumb:


I'd certainly compost them. Chewable vitamins are for folks that eat groceries out of dead soil, anyway....:thumb:


----------



## bama

Its smoking and super hot to the touch!!!

I am so excited, i made the family come outside and look and feel! They werent that excited


----------



## Mickey

Ky-Jeeper,
Ummm, you DO seem to be missing what seems to be an essential ingredient from your compost pile (according to our resident poop pile expert:gossip: ) 
:stirpot: Just think about strolling to the pile, hand in hand with that special someone in your life, and emptying your bladder.
Oh the romance!:gaptooth: :runforhills:


----------



## Ky-Jeeper

No human waste LOL. Rabbit pee yes.




Mickey said:


> Ky-Jeeper,
> Ummm, you DO seem to be missing what seems to be an essential ingredient from your compost pile (according to our resident poop pile expert:gossip: )
> :stirpot: Just think about strolling to the pile, hand in hand with that special someone in your life, and emptying your bladder.
> Oh the romance!:gaptooth: :runforhills:


----------



## Forerunner

Bama, I am just so proud of you. 
Your fam will understand, someday.

When that pile cools back down, be sure to watch for the red wrigglers to take over. :thumb:

I think Mickey is itchin' for a hot date, what do ya'll think ? :heh:


----------



## Mickey

:hrm:, well if by "hot date" you mean a trip to the poop pile you can count this chick out!:nono: Geesh, last of the big time spenders:bash: 
ICK ICK ICK


----------



## Forerunner

*giggle*

I think Mickey has a compost fetish. :kiss:

It's ok, Mickey. 
You're among friends, here. :grouphug:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfnopkT37I[/ame]


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Tim, Tim, Tim!! You need to talk to that husband of mine again about the virtues of compost!!! He took my compost pile and used it as fill dirt in the barnyard.

I asked him to till the garden and he raked all my good carbon off the soil before tilling and burned it! :sob:


----------



## Forerunner

OMG!!!

Cyndi...... be it far from me to throw my hands up in despair, but with a report of that dreadful magnitude, it sounds to me like all hope is gone!

_Fill_....in the *barnyard*!!??? 

























:sob:
















:run:


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

The dirt on the east side of the barn is eroding. He only saw dirt when he looked at my compost.

I've seen him eyeing the huge pile of compost (manure and straw/hay from last spring) in the west paddock. I told him that is NOT dirt, it is what will be feeding his asparagus this year.

Please Obie-Tim Ka-Nobie, you're my final hope.


----------



## Mickey

Oh my. Be careful what you wish for Cyndi. I mean, just look what happened to poor mudburn. Your dh could be next!:spinsmiley:


----------



## SmokeEater2

MullersLaneFarm said:


> Tim, Tim, Tim!! You need to talk to that husband of mine again about the virtues of compost!!! He took my compost pile and used it as fill dirt in the barnyard.
> 
> I asked him to till the garden and he raked all my good carbon off the soil before tilling and burned it! :sob:




That's one of the saddest things I've seen this week. :sob: I'm going to go out to the pile and have a moment of reflection for your loss.


----------



## Forerunner

Wow. :bow:

To compensate for _that_ loss....... would require some multiple gallons of reflection!!!


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Freya said:


> I vote you ask a mod to change your name to, "I got Worms". :thumb:
> 
> Ok I dare you too. :nana:


I am thinking about it! I'll have to pm one of those mod err ate ours (he he) about this .


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Mickey said:


> Oh my. Be careful what you wish for Cyndi. I mean, just look what happened to poor mudburn. Your dh could be next!:spinsmiley:


It won't happen, Mickey. The man is in his mid-50's. His mother has talked to him about compost, I've talked to him about compost the last 10 years, Carla Emery & her husband Don has talked to him about compost. He's even seen FR's compost and FR has talked to him before about compost ...

I could only pray something connects in his head about the virtues of compost. :sob:


----------



## Trisha in WA

OK I need help. I have a 5 gallon bucket of flour that has gone very rancid. Made the mistake of buying in bulk before trying it to make sure we liked it.
So, can I put this on my compost pile? Or will it be a bad thing in there?


----------



## Mickey

MullersLaneFarm said:


> It won't happen, Mickey. The man is in his mid-50's. His mother has talked to him about compost, I've talked to him about compost the last 10 years, Carla Emery & her husband Don has talked to him about compost. He's even seen FR's compost and FR has talked to him before about compost ...
> 
> I could only pray something connects in his head about the virtues of compost. :sob:


Well, I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe you could try waxing all poetic and romantic about the poop pile like Tim does your dh will get the drift. ound:


----------



## MOgal

Trisha, I had mice chew through a thin plastic top of a container and contaminate some potato flour. I put it on my compost pile, to make a thin layer and it's done just fine. I thought of it as another brown.


----------



## 4crumleys

Question:
I have a compost pile of horse manure and shavings about 3 months old, mixed with leaves, and I had fresh vege scraps each day. Pile is about 3 feet high X 3 feet wide. It is moist, but not hot. I turned it yesterday and very little heat coming out of it. Today I noticed some ants on it. Any suggestions???


----------



## Forerunner

Flour is just another ingredient to put a smile on the microbes faces.
Think of it as treating them to doughnuts. 

Crumley...... you say very little heat. Is that to say there was some ?
Your pile is borderline for heating mass, judging from your description.
Can you increase the size ?
If you have evident moisture, and ants, it doesn't sound like are too wet or dry.....


----------



## Forerunner

Mickey said:


> Well, I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe you could try waxing all poetic and romantic about the poop pile like Tim does your dh will get the drift. ound:


Well, I appreciate the latitude that I've been given by our good moderator in this here and other threads where I've, um....contributed :whistlin: sooooo.....I really don't think I should go into any details..... you know, such as balmy spring nights, under the moon and stars, couple wool blankets, a little lingerie maybe, a good-sized compost pile within reach......maybe some seductive music playing in the background..... start out with a sensuous foot rub and then maybe a nice, long back rub with some slippery lotion or another, and then.................. :shrug:


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> Well, I appreciate the latitude that I've been given by our good moderator in this here and other threads where I've, um....contributed :whistlin: sooooo.....I really don't think I should go into any details..... you know, such as balmy spring nights, under the moon and stars, couple wool blankets, a little lingerie maybe, a good-sized compost pile within reach......maybe some seductive music playing in the background..... start out with a sensuous foot rub and then maybe a nice, long back rub with some slippery lotion or another, and then.................. :shrug:


Oh you romantic devil:gaptooth: :nana:


----------



## Forerunner

What, already ? 

I was just sayin' how I really shouldn't go into detail. :indif:


----------



## Mickey

Hmmmmm, moonlight,stars,lingerie and a COMPOST PILE nearby?
Poor poor Lori :sob: You go for it girl:frypan: The sisterhood is with ya!:thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

I'll just plead the 5th as to just how far we'd have to reach out the bedroom window to access the closest pile. 

Thank God for the Bill of Rights, eh ? :thumb:


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ga...tion/338293-building-durable-compost-bin.html


----------



## SmokeEater2

Today is new pile day. :bouncy: Time to clean out a couple of barn stalls and the chicken coop and add it to the mud coated leaves that piled up to the top of the fence row during the last rain.

I've also got a bunch of old dusty loose hay in the barn loft that's going into the mix.

It's gonna' be a pooptacular day.


----------



## Forerunner

Man!!! Sounds like a smorgasbord! :bouncy:


----------



## Freya

jlrbhjmnc said:


> I am thinking about it! I'll have to pm one of those mod err ate ours (he he) about this .



:rock:


----------



## Trisha in WA

Forerunner said:


> Flour is just another ingredient to put a smile on the microbes faces.
> Think of it as treating them to doughnuts.


Thank you so much! Out it goes!


----------



## SmokeEater2

OK, I know the folks with real heavy duty, large sized grinders or shredders wouldn't even cross the street to spit on my little Chipper Shredder but it's a step up for me.

Yesterday my wife found a 10 HP. older Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder that looked like it had been used very little and maintained really well and the price was right so I went and picked it up this morning and hauled it home expecting to at least tear the carb down for a good cleaning.

I noticed that it had about a 1/4 tank of gas in it and all the fluids looked good so I decided to give the starter rope a pull just for the heck of it.

One pull and it (literally) roared into life. :nanner: I know it's not a big deal to many of you, But I'm looking forward to grinding up oak leaves and cardboard for faster composting.


----------



## am1too

SmokeEater2 said:


> OK, I know the folks with real heavy duty, large sized grinders or shredders wouldn't even cross the street to spit on my little Chipper Shredder but it's a step up for me.
> 
> Yesterday my wife found a 10 HP. older Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder that looked like it had been used very little and maintained really well and the price was right so I went and picked it up this morning and hauled it home expecting to at least tear the carb down for a good cleaning.
> 
> I noticed that it had about a 1/4 tank of gas in it and all the fluids looked good so I decided to give the starter rope a pull just for the heck of it.
> 
> One pull and it (literally) roared into life. :nanner: I know it's not a big deal to many of you, But I'm looking forward to grinding up oak leaves and cardboard for faster composting.


I get mine already ground or use the brush hog. Have some very long piles of leaves to make powder out of.


----------



## SmokeEater2

am1too said:


> I get mine already ground or use the brush hog. Have some very long piles of leaves to make powder out of.




Yeah, I agree that the Bush Hog works great but it would be a pain trying to bring it into the yard.


----------



## Lloyd J.

I got woodchips delivered this year. Hydro had a thousand hour contract with an out of province firm and they were going to take the chips to the landfill. 

:hair

I managed to talk them into bringing them to me. 

Lloyd


----------



## SmokeEater2

Oh heck yeah! Nice pile o' chips Lloyd! :dance:



Ya' know, We really need a compost shoveling smiley in the line up. :huh:


----------



## gimpyrancher

You know, what to do with leftover hay is dependent on what you are short of. If you have plenty of N, then by all means compost it. If you have a lack of N, then feed it to the cows and let them make what you need. It may not be the first quality being old but mix it in with new hay and let them eat it. :lookout:


----------



## Forerunner

....and, what they don't eat becomes bedding and gets pooped on, anyway. 

Genius, I say. Pure genius....... Whoever it was that designed this world of soil, microbes, nutrients and flora. :bow:


----------



## Copperhead

gimpyrancher said:


> You know, what to do with leftover hay is dependent on what you are short of. If you have plenty of N, then by all means compost it. If you have a lack of N, then feed it to the cows and let them make what you need. It may not be the first quality being old but mix it in with new hay and let them eat it. :lookout:


Give it to the pigs! They can really make good use of it


----------



## bama

question - once the pile is nice and steamy, how long will it stay that way? once it heats, should i just leave it alone (i.e. stop breaking it open to watch the heat rise LOL)


----------



## Dieselrider

retire2$ said:


> What are the benefits and/or negative effects of spreading fresh sawdust mixed with horse manure directly on your pasture?
> 
> My neighbor uses sawdust (not sure if it is hardwood or softwood) in her box stalls for her horses. She cleans daily and replaces all the saw dust each month. I was thinking if I bought a wheel driven manure spreader she could put this directly into the manure spreader and I could spread it over my pasture on a monthly basis. I have a few cows that I rotate through the pastures. They are on the pasture for 1-2 days before they are moved. I then use a riding mower to mow the pasture. I drag a length of chain link fence behind the mower to break up the cow plops. The amount of sawdust would be 2 one ton truck loads per month spread out over 1/2 to 1 acre lots.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any and all replies.


I have been reading this thread from page one for the past few days and would like to thank those involved for the valuable info up to here. I will go back and finish the thread but, felt the need to interject something here regarding sawdust directly applied to fields, whether pasture, crop land or garden. As someone mentioned back on page 41, when raw sawdust or wood chips are placed into the soil, they will absorb nitrogen until they are saturated with it and then they will release it slowly over time. If you apply it this way, be prepared to see a decrease in the grass production in that area as the saw dust/ wood chips compete with the grass for nitrogen until the chips are saturated (possibly a couple years). 

I have been experimenting with bio char this past winter and incorporating it into my gardening this year and that is one of the things they warn about with bio char (wood cooked to get the oils out and leave the high carbon content intact) is to place in in water or compost piles before introducing into the garden as it will compete with the intended crops for nutrients is you just place it on raw.

Hope this helps and I would be interested in hearing the results of anyone using sawdust raw in your own words. Thanks.

Now, back to reading.....:bandwagon:


----------



## Forerunner

bama said:


> question - once the pile is nice and steamy, how long will it stay that way? once it heats, should i just leave it alone (i.e. stop breaking it open to watch the heat rise LOL)


_*Nice and steamy ??!!!*_ 

Bama..... this is a _family_ friendly thread. :nono:


The duration of your heat cycle correlates directly with the mass quantity in the pile. The bigger the pile, the longer it heats.
Mega ton piles can stay hot for years.
The pickup full or two sized piles might heat four to six months.
When the heat is gone, the worms move in....sometimes sooner around the edges. Don't be terribly tempted to use the material until it cools and cures.
Compost can certainly be spread and used before then in lighter applications, worked in well..... but working in the truly finished product has its own multiple rewards.

....and, yes, for crying out loud, quit playing with it. :indif:


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Dieselrider.

I haven't read through this entire thread for some time, nor the nuts and bolts counterparts that were posted in the survival forum some time ago..... but, somewhere, I wrote extensively about sawdust, woodchips and the nitrogen factor.

Your description was spot on, and I have experimented considerably with the stuff.
Some of my best ground is that where I've spread pure, though aged and darker colored sawdust and tilled it in and walked away for 18 months.
That ground is now like black sand and coffee grounds. I get quicker and more uniform germination there with grain crops, and the richest green.

Why ? Because carbon feeds the microbe and larger soil life that produce the enzymes that break down and release blocked nutrients that already exist in otherwise sterile soils..... 
Some claim that there are no nutrients in waste wood products, but, taken as an unsupported statement, that is very misleading.
Waste wood products, in my experience, are the most solid approach to reconditioning dead or bland soil for the long haul. They are also the foundation, generally the cheapest and most abundant, for building a larger composting operation.

My focus on the land here has not been to tip-toe in my soil amending and simultaneously hope to get a marketable crop each year. My focus has been to incorporate thousands of tons of material while I have the means, in hopes that generations down the road will benefit.

That said, with an eye for detail and a patient sense of discipline, one can build any size composting project they can manage and apply the finished product to their ongoing food production operation without any interruptions in productivity.
The finished and cured product is nothing short of miraculous.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> _*Nice and steamy ??!!!*_
> 
> Bama..... this is a _family_ friendly thread. :nono:
> 
> 
> The duration of your heat cycle correlates directly with the mass quantity in the pile. The bigger the pile, the longer it heats.
> Mega ton piles can stay hot for years.
> The pickup full or two sized piles might heat four to six months.
> When the heat is gone, the worms move in....sometimes sooner around the edges. Don't be terribly tempted to use the material until it cools and cures.
> Compost can certainly be spread and used before then in lighter applications, worked in well..... but working in the truly finished product has its own multiple rewards.
> 
> ....and, yes, for crying out loud, quit playing with it. :indif:


But it is so much fun!


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> _*Nice and steamy ??!!!*_
> -----------------
> Bama..... this is a _family_ friendly thread. :nono:
> 
> 
> The duration of your heat cycle correlates directly with the mass quantity in the pile. The bigger the pile, the longer it heats.
> Mega ton piles can stay hot for years.
> The pickup full or two sized piles might heat four to six months.
> When the heat is gone, the worms move in....sometimes sooner around the edges. Don't be terribly tempted to use the material until it cools and cures.
> Compost can certainly be spread and used before then in lighter applications, worked in well..... but working in the truly finished product has its own multiple rewards.
> 
> ....and, yes, for crying out loud, quit playing with it. :indif:




Now just look what you've started?? tsk tsk tsk 
:runforhills: bama!! Save yourself while there's still time!!


----------



## bama

LOL!!!!! y'all are too funny!

but it has apparently cooled off again. just not enough mass. the ants are back. grrrrr!


----------



## SmokeEater2

I found a new source of pile chow yesterday. I went to the local high school FFA barn yesterday to buy some of the young chickens they are raising and while I was there they were showing me some of the steers the kids are raising.

One young lady was cleaning out all the shavings and manure from her steer's stall and I asked what they did with it. She showed me a pile out back where it was all deposited and said it was free for the taking. :bouncy:

Since I always carry a scoop shovel and a pitch fork in the truck just in case I stumble across an unexpected bounty, I loaded the truck and am going back for more this afternoon.

One thing I enjoyed seeing was the fact that even though school was out yesterday, There were several kids busily taking care of the cattle,cleaning the barn and caring for the chicks. No one was forcing them to be there, but they were doing it on their own instead of playing games or whatever else.


----------



## Forerunner

Pile chow....

Free for the taking..... 

Always a scoop shovel and pitchfork in the truck....just in case.... 





We _must_ be related !! :bouncy:


Ditto on the sentiment, seeing youth actively engaged in productive reality vs. the alternative. :thumb:


----------



## CesumPec

OK, having coveted Forerunner's piles I had to start my own. I'm clearing 2+ acres of Florida jungle to create room for fruit trees and a garden. In the adjacent woods, I'll eventually have pig and goat pens that will provide the next round of clearing and additional pile inputs. So far the piles are just chips except for Rocky Raccoon and Penelope Possum, critters which gave their all in the name of compost along the road near the farm. The piles also have had numerous additions of a nitrogen rich solution which my male helpers add with their wand applicators. Don't worry, no pictures of that.

What I started with, Florida Jungle:









A load donated by the neighbors:









Chipped brush and trees:









Stuff that won't fit through the chipper and will be used as ultra mulch or Huglekulture:


----------



## SmokeEater2

Nice! Looks like you are making good progress on that jungle. :goodjob:


... And I covet your wood chipper. :sob:


----------



## CesumPec

SmokeEater2 said:


> I covet your wood chipper. :sob:


I found it on Craigslist. It is a late 70s Asplundh reject with an industrial version of a Ford straight 4, I think basically what was in Pintos and Bobcats. It took a bit of work to get it running well but it is doing fine now. The worst part is not knowing the chipper model number so it is difficult to find parts. 

I'm hoping that after I get new knives that it will cut smaller chips for better bedding and composting.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I found it on Craigslist. It is a late 70s Asplundh reject with an industrial version of a Ford straight 4, I think basically what was in Pintos and Bobcats. It took a bit of work to get it running well but it is doing fine now. The worst part is not knowing the chipper model number so it is difficult to find parts.
> 
> I'm hoping that after I get new knives that it will cut smaller chips for better bedding and composting.


Get a different screen.


----------



## Dieselrider

Okay, I do not have a chipper shredder, even a small one to make carbon. Have lots of woods and potential wood chips. Is it even reasonable to think that you can use a home model chipper to make enough compost for a couple acre garden? If not, what size, model would you need and (I hate to ask) but, what would you spend on something large enough?

As another option: What industries around would have shredded material in bulk for sale or free? 

I have even been thinking about no tilling the gardens as seen in that back to eden movie but, how to cover a couple acres several inches thick with wood chips? Sigh

What about mulch bales of hay that are several years old as carbon? I am talking 4'x4' round bales?


----------



## Forerunner

Old hay may be your best option. It's often cheap and plentiful.
They say there may be a weed seed issue in old hay.
But I figure, if I'm gardening/growing food....I'm pulling weeds.

That said, weeds are a great source of carbon/compost. 

On the chippers, I found it to be not cost effective, but largely due to available carbon in the area from other sources.
A chipper is not a bad investment in my estimation. 
I still have my Finnish made Valby..... takes an 11 inch log and can pull down a 165 horse tractor if I set the hydraulic feed too high. :nono:
Cost new, several years ago, was 11,500. Now I bet they're closer to 15,000.
A reasonable, self contained lighter industrial model can be had from 3-7,000.
Ebay ain't a bad place to educate yourself.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> Get a different screen.


It doesn't have a screen. I've found a friend of a friend who works on these things for landscaping companies. He's going to get me some new knives and I'll ask him to look to see if this had a screen long ago.


----------



## CesumPec

Dieselrider said:


> Is it even reasonable to think that you can use a home model chipper to make enough compost for a couple acre garden? If not, what size, model would you need and (I hate to ask) but, what would you spend on something large enough?
> 
> As another option: What industries around would have shredded material in bulk for sale or free?


A small home sized chipped can be frequently found on CL for under $400. But at a sub-10 HP, I wonder if you would spend more time cutting stuff small enough to get it thru the chipper that it wouln'dt be worth it. I really don't know. 

Your local town dump probably has free chips to haul away. Near my home in Virginia, the dump even has a hopper that you drive under, turn on a conveyor, and it loads your truck for you.


----------



## Dieselrider

I took a class a couple years ago on large animal composting for a way of disposing of on farm animals that expire for what ever reason. We were told to use sawdust and make a 2 foot thick bed and then lay the animal in place and cover with at least 2 feet of saw dust all around the animal (top and all sides). This works well as I dispose of our chicken waste from processing meat chickens each year this way but, getting saw dust is getting tougher as the saw mills sell the saw dust anymore to the wood pellet manufacturers. The last I bought was $350 per tri-axle load. 

Since reading through this thread, I was wondering if using mulch hay wouldn't give the same results. It would still be carbon and allow for the little bit of airflow required. I could build a pile out of one or two round bales and use the same covering rates. What do you guys think?


----------



## Forerunner

Definitely.

Dry hay, especially, works great to soak up dead critter juices and get the heat ball rolling. Moist hay will be fine, as well, but I'd open up any really wet or slimy stuff and let it air a bit so it doesn't ferment.

Due to the greater loftiness of hay compared to sawdust, you might use three feet all around rather than two.


----------



## Dieselrider

CesumPec said:


> A small home sized chipped can be frequently found on CL for under $400. But at a sub-10 HP, I wonder if you would spend more time cutting stuff small enough to get it thru the chipper that it wouln'dt be worth it. I really don't know.
> 
> Your local town dump probably has free chips to haul away. Near my home in Virginia, the dump even has a hopper that you drive under, turn on a conveyor, and it loads your truck for you.



Well, what I found out from a composting facility from the next county was they charge $10 for one cubic yard of un-screened mulch, $15 for one cubic yard of screened mulch and $20 for one cubic yard of screened compost. I could haul about 2 cubic yards in my trailer and maybe another one in the truck bed (Nissan Frontier). I may check into the cost of hiring a tri-axle and finding out how many yards they could haul in one trip. That may be cheaper over the long haul considering what fuel costs are now. I have not been to their facility but, would estimate it to be around 20 miles one way. What do you think?


----------



## am1too

Dieselrider said:


> Well, what I found out from a composting facility from the next county was they charge $10 for one cubic yard of un-screened mulch, $15 for one cubic yard of screened mulch and $20 for one cubic yard of screened compost. I could haul about 2 cubic yards in my trailer and maybe another one in the truck bed (Nissan Frontier). I may check into the cost of hiring a tri-axle and finding out how many yards they could haul in one trip. That may be cheaper over the long haul considering what fuel costs are now. I have not been to their facility but, would estimate it to be around 20 miles one way. What do you think?


Will they let you load it for free? My local compost yard does.


----------



## 4crumleys

Forerunner, based on your advice I have increased my compost pile size. It is now about 5x5 thanks to all the free manure/hay I want from a local farmer. The manure is a mixture of goat and horse with shavings and hay mixed in. Now I am back to a hot pile!


----------



## Dieselrider

am1too said:


> Will they let you load it for free? My local compost yard does.


I have no idea as yet, but I can ask.


----------



## CesumPec

Dieselrider said:


> Well, what I found out from a composting facility from the next county was they charge $10 for one cubic yard of un-screened mulch, $15 for one cubic yard of screened mulch and $20 for one cubic yard of screened compost. I could haul about 2 cubic yards in my trailer and maybe another one in the truck bed (Nissan Frontier). I may check into the cost of hiring a tri-axle and finding out how many yards they could haul in one trip. That may be cheaper over the long haul considering what fuel costs are now. I have not been to their facility but, would estimate it to be around 20 miles one way. What do you think?


I would think that there are free sources of compost materials nearby. A few yards of bought mulch are prob just fine for your average suburban home trying to dress the flower beds. But to get a significant volume of compost ingredients for a big garden or acreage would not be financially justifiable IMO. 

You can check with local restaurants, grocers, mills, food processors, horse farms, breweries, distrillers, all have good stuff they need to get rid of. I know the problem with restaurants and grocers, they will often agree to seperate out food wastes but they need to know they will have a reliable hauler that picks up on scedule every few days.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner - this is your thread. What do you think of starting either a new thread or adding to this one with everyone replying with an original source of compost materials? The goal being to help people expand their vision of what and where they can find for free or near free composting inputs. 

Rules, copy the list and add to the bottom and it has to list both the type of supplier and material the poster has actually used. For instance, from my own history:

Numerous horse farms - manure and bedding
Town dump - free mulch
My farm - wood chips from clearing trees
Florida SR 40 near Ocala - road kills
Suburban homes - bagged grass clippings and leaves set out for garbage pick up


----------



## Forerunner

Naw..... Cesum-P.....this is _our_ thread.
Your idea sounds like a productive addition to it.


----------



## CesumPec

Numerous horse farms - manure and bedding
Town dump - free mulch
My farm - wood chips from clearing trees
Florida SR 40 near Ocala - road kills
Suburban homes - bagged grass clippings and leaves set out for garbage pick up
My farm - a dead hen. As of this afternoon I have a sad addition to this list, my first dead chicken. I have no idea what happened to her but she is now part of my soils future.


----------



## Dieselrider

CesumPec said:


> I would think that there are free sources of compost materials nearby. A few yards of bought mulch are prob just fine for your average suburban home trying to dress the flower beds. But to get a significant volume of compost ingredients for a big garden or acreage would not be financially justifiable IMO.
> 
> You can check with local restaurants, grocers, mills, food processors, horse farms, breweries, distrillers, all have good stuff they need to get rid of. I know the problem with restaurants and grocers, they will often agree to seperate out food wastes but they need to know they will have a reliable hauler that picks up on scedule every few days.


We are pretty rural here. There are not many true horse farms for example that are close. The one neighbor that does keep several horses saves all his manure for his brother who farms allot of ground. We do collect from one small horse hobby farm locally. 
Very few restaurants close by and even if there were, do you think that going to each one every few days would be cheaper then paying for finished material in the long run? The material would be free but the fuel spent on collecting it at $4/gallon would soon overshadow "free", don't you think? Better to make large hauls less often then many smaller hauls unless they are right on your way. I already see that getting enough finished product from the one local compost facility is not going to be "the" answer but, I will consider that until I can find other sources. Thanks.


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## Forerunner

Sawmills, brush cutting services and electric companies, sale barns.

I agree in that, in the long term, large loads compiled and paid for are cheaper than multiples of small ones from all over. That said, with a pickup and pitch fork/aluminum scoop shovel combo, one might be amazed at the opportunities that arise in ones local travels. When the jackpot is occasionally hit, call in a semi if need be, but I have made grand use of the John Deere 3020 with loader and two heavier built farm dump wagons, as well as the one I showed being built in the thread here, and my bigger tractor.
All things considered, I am money ahead for the time and investment I've put in.

There really are basically two ways to approach one's sojourn on this earth.

1. The most common...... go along to get along/ don't make waves/ don't expend any overt effort or purpose, just whatever it takes to get by.....

2. Take the bull by the horns with one hand and the tiger by the tail with the other and take off screamin'........ so to speak. :huh:


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## elkhound

love this thread and what everyone is doing....i got 6 more free loads delivered.

pile it high.....pile it deep....and keep adding to it as often as time and energy allows you too.

the world is a better place with composting piles !!!!!!!


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## Forerunner

It _*is*_. 

You _know_ we're just ruining some world dominator's day, somewhere, piling up and incorporating all this organic matter. :bouncy:


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## SmokeEater2

Forerunner said:


> It _*is*_.
> 
> You _know_ we're just ruining some world dominator's day, somewhere, piling up and incorporating all this organic matter. :bouncy:



Heh! That thought makes it that much better. Composter's against world domination!! 

HI-YO MICROBES! AWAY! :lonergr:


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## SmokeEater2

A few places I've found compost material:

Any local utility that runs wood chippers when they clear power lines or the like. If you see one of these crews working beside the road, Stop and ask them what they do with the truck loads of chips. If they are having to drive a ways to dump it and your place is closer they are often happy to come and dump it at your place. 

Any office that shreds a lot of paper. They are paying for trash pick up and large bags of shredded paper fills up their dumpster fast and are often happy for you to haul it off if you ask. A few likely places to try would be any place that has to destroy customer information like Doctor's offices, billing companies, Utilities and the local National Guard armory.

Livestock sale barns. If you read Forerunner and Mudburn's posts early in this thread they have it down to a science. If you haven't read this whole thread you really should take the time to do so,There's an absolute wealth of prime information here. 

FFA Barns. The kids raising animals in those keep the stalls and cages very clean and there's a big pile of manure,straw and wood chips around somewhere free for the hauling. (Unless you live near me, In that case I already got it all. :heh

Veterinarian's offices. Large animal vets usually have a barn and corral to keep the critters that have to stay for a while. Here anyway,stalls and straw are cleaned out daily.

Lawn care companies. There are a LOT of transplanted retirees in my area and many can't or can afford not to care for there own lawns. Because of this you can't swing a dead cat in town without hitting a lawn care guy.

A lot of them are always looking for a place to dump all the grass and leaves they acquire. If you have an easy access area for them to get too they will either bring them to you or tell you where they dump them.

Put an ad on your local radio station's trading post program,Free cycle,bulletin boards etc. what you're looking for. 

If you drive a pick-up, Always carry the tools you need to load unexpected finds with you all the time. You never know when you're going to stumble on an immediate source of pile chow. Be prepared to snag it. 

The local Parks and Rec. workers. They mow a LOT and generally have a designated area to dump it all.


More pile to ya'! :happy:


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## CesumPec

Dieselrider said:


> We are pretty rural here. There are not many true horse farms for example that are close. The one neighbor that does keep several horses saves all his manure for his brother who farms allot of ground. We do collect from one small horse hobby farm locally.
> Very few restaurants close by and even if there were, do you think that going to each one every few days would be cheaper then paying for finished material in the long run? The material would be free but the fuel spent on collecting it at $4/gallon would soon overshadow "free", don't you think? Better to make large hauls less often then many smaller hauls unless they are right on your way. I already see that getting enough finished product from the one local compost facility is not going to be "the" answer but, I will consider that until I can find other sources. Thanks.


you are right about the restaurants. i do know of people doing this but they are bringing home stuff from where they work or they are making collections of saved waste foods that will eventually make compost once they run it through their pigs or chix. So the economics of is much improved as both free animal chow and compost


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## 4crumleys

Forerunner,

I have gone back and reread some of the beginning of this forum. My pile consists mainly of horse/goat manure with shavings and hay. I had fresh kitchen scraps each day, usually about a 2 gallon container of vegetable scraps. It has grown to about 5x5 and I have access to a lot more of the manure/hay mixture. I cannot get my pile to heat back up. I do have several large pile of wood chips that I can mix in. You mentioned at the beginning of this forum about having the incorrect mixture. Could this be the issue. Thanks for your help in our recycling education!


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## Forerunner

Your mix sure sounds good.....manure/bedding material alone should heat once piled.
How is your moisture ?
You say you had heat and lost it ?

If that material you have access to is moist, but not wet, and doesn't smell of strong urea, keep adding to the pile, mixing as you go, then cap it off and give it two days.
If it does smell strongly of urea, add those wood chips as you incorporate it.

You're losing points telling me you have access to manure/bedding.....and odd piles of wood chips laying around, and not having it all kicked up in a huge pile already.


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## Coloneldad5

Well I've been off of here for a couple of months and haven't chimed in but in that time I've made my way back from Afghanistan to the states and have even had a chance to run home for a few days to check out my new homestead. Although I already have good soil I can only imagine that adding good compost will make it better. I am also blessed to have several dairy farms near by and most folks have horses. I have already (well the wife has anyway) approached a couple and we have ready access to an abundant supply of cow/horse manure. Looks like I get to start building some big piles this summer. My only limitation is the fact that I am limited to a Ford pickup to haul it in and shovels to unload and build my piles. Unfortunately my appetite for large piles greatly outstrips my ability to build them. :sob:


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## gimpyrancher

A small trailer behind yer pick-m-up truck will double the haul at a very cheap price. The trailer is easier to unload.


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## Coloneldad5

gimpyrancher said:


> A small trailer behind yer pick-m-up truck will double the haul at a very cheap price. The trailer is easier to unload.


Alas I don't have a decent trailer to haul with yet. The only one I currently have is one of those cheap ones from Home Depot that I picked up a few years back and I don't trust it to haul much, but it might have to do until it gives out or I get one better.


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## am1too

Coloneldad5 said:


> Well I've been off of here for a couple of months and haven't chimed in but in that time I've made my way back from Afghanistan to the states and have even had a chance to run home for a few days to check out my new homestead. Although I already have good soil I can only imagine that adding good compost will make it better. I am also blessed to have several dairy farms near by and most folks have horses. I have already (well the wife has anyway) approached a couple and we have ready access to an abundant supply of cow/horse manure. Looks like I get to start building some big piles this summer. My only limitation is the fact that I am limited to a Ford pickup to haul it in and shovels to unload and build my piles. Unfortunately my appetite for large piles greatly outstrips my ability to build them. :sob:


I use a 16 ft tandem axle trailer to haul 7 to 10 yards at a time. Adds up quidkly. I load and unload with a manure fork. Cuts the time factor in half. Took me 90 minutes to load the other day. If I do it it pays me about $15 bucks an hour to load that I keep in my pocket and don't pay taxes on. So it is really much more. I could pay them $20 to load and still takes anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour to load. If I do it I get to be selective.


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## SmokeEater2

Forerunner, I took some of your advice yesterday. I stumbled across a first printing (1960) edition of _The Complete Book Of Composting_ by Rodale.

What a book! I'm just a couple of chapters in and I can already tell that this is FAR above the '93 version I'd read before. Well worth looking for if anyone is interested in composting imo.


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## Forerunner

:bow: 

Your family will miss you.


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## southfarms

Forerunner,

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! I have been reading this thread for quite some time, and I have a question. When figuring C:N ratio, do you do this by weight or volume? I am considering doing some large scale composting of chicken litter and rice hulls to use on my fields. By my math, if chicken manure has a 7:1 ratio, and rice hulls have a 110:1 ratio, then 8 loads of manure to 1 load of hulls should equal 18.4:1. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. :gaptooth:

Stephen


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Forerunner, have any of those flying carp made it into your compost?


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## Forerunner

Hello and welcome, Stephen.

The C/N ratio would be figured by weight, in laboratories. 

Out here in the raw world we just mix stuff by guess and by golly and wet 'er down a little if need be.....you know, roughly half manure/bedding pack and half more carbon. :grin:

On the other hand, your mix sounds just a tad heavy on the carbon, but if you've got adequate moisture in with those rice hulls, you'd be close and likely close enough.
I take it you've a ready source of both ?
How much tonnage per week/month do you have access to ?


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## Forerunner

Silvercreek, just a handful. 

I can't get the boys to pack them the mile and a half from where that video was shot......and, it hasn't flooded to get the fish that excited in a couple years, now.
I've got enough expired cattle carcasses in the current piles to keep me mineral and nitrogen rich for decades.


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## southfarms

Thanks for the reply Forerunner. I farm a few miles from two of the country's largest rice mills. I do not have a great supply of chicken litter, but the northwest part of Arkansas has a problem with phosphorus contamination in the streams due to overapplication of litter. I would have to truck it about 150-200 miles to get it from that area of the state. Due to the current cost of P and K commercial fertilizer, if I can capture the P and the K from the litter, it would be quite feasable to move it that far. This would not only be less expensive, but it would be better for the land that we farm (all rented). I hope that this commercial use of compost doesn't upset the spirit of this thread. I would love to make my living from a small acreage, but I can't seem to convince my wife that less is more. Until then I would like to remove myself as far as I can from the powers that control the fertilizer markets. Comments, concerns, and suggestions are welcomed.


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## Forerunner

I dare say that a "commercial" use of compost in place of "commercial" fertilizer would be exactly what I like to see as a result of this thread.
I harbor no illusions in that there is an immediate and ready supply capable of servicing every "commercially" farmed acre of ground in the country......but wouldn't it be something if compost again saw it's value rightfully appreciated to the end that there came a shortage of composting material due to the hight demand......and that every scrap of American organic matter now wasted was again returned to the soil ?

Somebody slap me before I sink any further into this utopian daydream.


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## SmokeEater2

southfarms said:


> Thanks for the reply Forerunner. I farm a few miles from two of the country's largest rice mills. I do not have a great supply of chicken litter, but the northwest part of Arkansas has a problem with phosphorus contamination in the streams due to overapplication of litter. I would have to truck it about 150-200 miles to get it from that area of the state. Due to the current cost of P and K commercial fertilizer, if I can capture the P and the K from the litter, it would be quite feasable to move it that far. This would not only be less expensive, but it would be better for the land that we farm (all rented). I hope that this commercial use of compost doesn't upset the spirit of this thread. I would love to make my living from a small acreage, but I can't seem to convince my wife that less is more. Until then I would like to remove myself as far as I can from the powers that control the fertilizer markets. Comments, concerns, and suggestions are welcomed.



Being from Arkansas myself (North Central area) I am glad to hear that a commercial farmer is saying no to chemical "fertilizers"!

I don't know what crops you raise but I firmly believe that they and the land as well as the families who receive the food you provide would benefit greatly from your planned use of compost.

And since Tyson has covered the state with chicken and turkey concentration camps there is an over abundance of manure that is being under utilized and causing problems in local water supplies.

Having walked farm land that reeked of freshly applied chemicals to an eye watering degree and also having the misfortune of seeing (and smelling ) the inside of a couple of turkey houses ( That will put you off store bought poultry products forever.) I'm glad to see that someone is farsighted enough to use the by-products of them to stop the chemical treadmill that too many commercial farmers have allowed themselves to rely on.

I wish you the very best of luck! :cowboy:


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## southfarms

Thanks for the encouragement guys. That treadmill is what I am trying to stay off of as much as I can. I am about 50 miles SE of Little Rock. It's a long haul, but hopefully I can make some steps toward soil improvement and lessen my dependance on Potash Corp. By the way I currently only raise rice, soybeans, and occasionally wheat.

Stephen


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## Oswego

I am behind getting this years compost pile started because I started a vegetable garden using the pile I have posted on. But I have some of the darkest green tomato, pepper, eggplant, beans, squash and cucumbers I have ever had. Blooms everywhere and will be eating from it soon. I need to use the time between blooms and fruit to get my new pile started.


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## Forerunner

I've touched on it several times before, but the concept is worthy of an occasional repeat.

I am fascinated by the darkest, richest green and robust growth that is evident where my piles have _been_ before spreading, and the same phenomenon that occurs wherever the runoff from these current piles is allowed to drain.

Whenever possible, place your piles on a hilltop where the juices can flow down into your garden/pasture/field/orchard what-have-you. The compost tea generated during decomposition is as valuable to the operation as ever the finished product will be.

I have several large hills that stand alone in pasture and field areas, and have gone to building my piles on the peaks and letting the tea soak in all the way around.
I've even gone so far, where feasible, as to rip the ground up within ten or twenty feet of the piles, all the way around, every few weeks, to more completely facilitate incorporation of the tea into the surrounding soil, and to prevent the liquid traveling too far, too fast, in the event of heavy rain.

For a very interesting and in depth second witness to the value of compost tea, I encourage the participants and observers here to seek out their own copy of the reprint book, "Ten Acres Enough", by Edmund Morris.
The book is an incredible inspiration to the hands-on organic grower, just not quite on par with Extreme Composting.
Pay particular attention to the work ethic and focus of the hired man in Ten Acres......

Amazon.com: Ten Acres is Enough (9780980297638): Edmund Morris: Books


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## idigbeets

I would like to note that if you are in a state that has/requires (most do I think) a manure management plan (if you are using manure) it's important to review those regulations prior to choosing a compost site.

My county defines composting as "manure stacking, or field stacking" and requires certain runoff considerations, slope of land, covering of pile, or if necessary an improved pad. Now.. I'm not saying don't compost... but for those of you doing this on a larger than backyard scale.. make sure you don't get slapped by NRCS/DEP for "improperly" handling manure.


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## am1too

Coloneldad5 said:


> Well I've been off of here for a couple of months and haven't chimed in but in that time I've made my way back from Afghanistan to the states and have even had a chance to run home for a few days to check out my new homestead. Although I already have good soil I can only imagine that adding good compost will make it better. I am also blessed to have several dairy farms near by and most folks have horses. I have already (well the wife has anyway) approached a couple and we have ready access to an abundant supply of cow/horse manure. Looks like I get to start building some big piles this summer. My only limitation is the fact that I am limited to a Ford pickup to haul it in and shovels to unload and build my piles. Unfortunately my appetite for large piles greatly outstrips my ability to build them. :sob:


It takes lots of shovels (manure fork) to build a pile by hand. I have no major equipment and have to do it little by littel. It sure adds up and my neighbor ask me if I was building a mountian.

At last I have enough material to use a couple of those expired cows. Now I need to find them and have them delivered.


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## Coloneldad5

I must admit one of the reasons I bought my "homestead" was to help teach me patience. I recognize that it is a long term task to build up such a place and I really do wish I could get it all up and running now, but have to be patient and work one step (or in this case one scoop) at a time and gradually build it up over time. And so it appears I will be building as big a pile as I can, one pick up load at a time.


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## Forerunner

I have been amazed, many times over, what can be done by one man, using hand labor, with diligence and determination applied....let alone the same over an extended period of time.


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## Rafter B

Forerunner sir, 

I have been reading this thread for some time, and have to admit even have gone back 3 times to reread it again. I just love it, and it is so addicting. You have totally opened my eyes to making compost, as you have so many others here. I cant wait to finish working overseas (in Afghanistan right now) and finally have my own place, so compost like crazy. lol. thank you so much for all the education you have given.


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## Forerunner

My pleasure, Rafter B.

Isn't there a compost pile, somewhere close there in Afghanistan, that you could pee on to tide yourself over a bit ?
I hate to see you pining away, so..... :huh:


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## Rafter B

lmao, I think the whole place is a compost pile. so that wouldnt be a problem.


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## Forerunner

The whole place is a compost pile ?!!

Are you certain that you're in Afghanistan, and not Heaven ?


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## CesumPec

In the May issue of _Acres Magazine_ there is an article on composting which is an excerpt from the book _Organic Management for the Professional_. It provides the most comprehensive list of feedstock materials I have seen which includes the normal manures and food processor wastes but also some items you might not have considered like out of date beer (yes, that does happen in bars) drywall, telephone books, and bakery wastes. 

What I found most interesting was the authors&#8217; validation of Forerunner&#8217;s composting technique.

Good compost is created with little or no turning. Frequent turning aerates the pile and causes it to reduce in volume by up to 70% in as little as 3 months. The reduction in volume comes at the expense of releasing nitrogen and sulfur as gases to the atmosphere, killing beneficial fungi, and eliminating organic matter. If your goal is to reduce the volume of stuff in your pile and create a soil amendment with little value as a fertilizer, turn the pile every few days. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.

Containers and bins are probably not desired. If you have a situation as may be necessary in urban/suburban settings where compost piles have to be hidden or limited to a small space, then bins could be required. However, bins reduce air flow which slows decomposition and hinders the growth of beneficial microbes. The beneficial microbes bind harmful salt; bacteria use the sodium and fungi use the chlorine in their cell walls. The microbes improve nutrient retention, improve soil structure both physically and chemically, and breakdown toxic materials. In spite of the hype by Home Depot which wants to sell you a fancy bin and even some composting books, try not to use bins. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.

Making compost fast, as is done in most commercial composting facilities, is probably not desired if your goal is safe, fertile soil amendments. Time and heat kills pathogens, grows higher populations of beneficial microbes, and decomposes insecticides and herbicides that may have been in your manure or yard waste feedstock. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.

The authors define a large pile as 8 &#8211; 15 ft tall, 15 &#8211; 25 ft wide, and as long as feedstock is available. Smaller piles don&#8217;t get as hot, don&#8217;t kill as many pathogens, and don&#8217;t decompose toxins as effectively. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.

The simple take away from the article is that they agree with the advice given over the 50+ pages of this thread, create good compost by using diverse feedstock, place it in a large pile, leave it alone for a year.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> In the May issue of _Acres Magazine_ there is an article on composting which is an excerpt from the book _Organic Management for the Professional_. It provides the most comprehensive list of feedstock materials I have seen which includes the normal manures and food processor wastes but also some items you might not have considered like out of date beer (yes, that does happen in bars) drywall, telephone books, and bakery wastes.
> 
> What I found most interesting was the authorsâ validation of Forerunnerâs composting technique.
> 
> Good compost is created with little or no turning. Frequent turning aerates the pile and causes it to reduce in volume by up to 70% in as little as 3 months. The reduction in volume comes at the expense of releasing nitrogen and sulfur as gases to the atmosphere, killing beneficial fungi, and eliminating organic matter. If your goal is to reduce the volume of stuff in your pile and create a soil amendment with little value as a fertilizer, turn the pile every few days. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.
> 
> Containers and bins are probably not desired. If you have a situation as may be necessary in urban/suburban settings where compost piles have to be hidden or limited to a small space, then bins could be required. However, bins reduce air flow which slows decomposition and hinders the growth of beneficial microbes. The beneficial microbes bind harmful salt; bacteria use the sodium and fungi use the chlorine in their cell walls. The microbes improve nutrient retention, improve soil structure both physically and chemically, and breakdown toxic materials. In spite of the hype by Home Depot which wants to sell you a fancy bin and even some composting books, try not to use bins. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.
> 
> Making compost fast, as is done in most commercial composting facilities, is probably not desired if your goal is safe, fertile soil amendments. Time and heat kills pathogens, grows higher populations of beneficial microbes, and decomposes insecticides and herbicides that may have been in your manure or yard waste feedstock. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.
> 
> The authors define a large pile as 8 â 15 ft tall, 15 â 25 ft wide, and as long as feedstock is available. Smaller piles donât get as hot, donât kill as many pathogens, and donât decompose toxins as effectively. A better solution is a large static pile left to sit for a year or more.
> 
> The simple take away from the article is that they agree with the advice given over the 50+ pages of this thread, create good compost by using diverse feedstock, place it in a large pile, leave it alone for a year.


Closing in on this size.


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## Forerunner

I hate being validated. :indif:

It robs me the opportunity to argue logic with that occasional incomprehending. :sob:

That said, I got the validation from Joseph Jenkins, who also loathes a pile turner....... along with my own logistics, here.
I figured it cost enough time and resource to _get_ the stuff here. No need to spend the same time and resources eternally turning compost piles. 

As for the drywall, I've come to keep several piles melting down, in the weather.
Once the construction industry finds that you're interested, there's certainly no shortage of the stuff. Like lime, I recommend against incorporating drywall gypsum into the compost piles. But do spread it in the fields as a stand alone amendment. As with my compost, I spread extra thick on the mounds to allow runoff to carry the tea down the hills for me. Drywall sheets break down in the field very nicely, the paper disintegrating in a season or two and the white powder disappearing altogether within a couple diskings.


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## Oswego

To start my new pile I called the City Electric dept. They have a truck with a large chippper behind it that follows the Electric crew when they have to cut limbs away from wires. When the covered dump part of the truck gets full they just dump it at the landfill. By calling and putting my order in they will dump the next load at my house.

This morning they dumped a full truckload and it already had hot spots with steam rising from it. Now I will travel the neighborhood for a few weeks and pick up grass from where folks dump their riding lawn mowers with baggers.


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## Rafter B

Forerunner said:


> The whole place is a compost pile ?!!
> 
> Are you certain that you're in Afghanistan, and not Heaven ?




lol yeah, if this is heaven, I dont want to see hell.


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## Forerunner

If I ever see hell, I'm going to build a compost pile and plant a garden, before I leave.

Wouldn't that be a hoot ? :bouncy:


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## Rafter B

lol that would be a hoot. you sure could teach these people a thing or to. their supply of carbon is very very low, so alls they use is manure, usually in the from of human. and omg, the smell is out of this world. but you can tell the difference in the soil and the plants. compost is an amazing thing.


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## Tinga

I only got to read the first 12 pages of this thread before my 'real' life abducted me back. 

Just to show you how life works:: I was waiting on my youngest to get home from school and I noticed some lawn guys in back of our lot, mowing a lot. Their lawnmower was headed a down the road, so I yelled to 'em. After a couple of chuckles I asked 'em what they were gonna do with their grass clippings. "Take 'em to the dump they said" 

LOL So I got a 12x6 trailer bed FULL of grass. Nearly 5 feet high! They were nice enough to help me dump it right outside my compost area. I'll use 'bout 1/2 for compost and the other 1/2 for mulch around my strawberries and other plants. WHAT A LUCKY DAY!.


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## am1too

Tinga said:


> I only got to read the first 12 pages of this thread before my 'real' life abducted me back.
> 
> Just to show you how life works:: I was waiting on my youngest to get home from school and I noticed some lawn guys in back of our lot, mowing a lot. Their lawnmower was headed a down the road, so I yelled to 'em. After a couple of chuckles I asked 'em what they were gonna do with their grass clippings. "Take 'em to the dump they said"
> 
> LOL So I got a 12x6 trailer bed FULL of grass. Nearly 5 feet high! They were nice enough to help me dump it right outside my compost area. I'll use 'bout 1/2 for compost and the other 1/2 for mulch around my strawberries and other plants. WHAT A LUCKY DAY!.


Now that'll turn eyes green with envy if not out right open jealousy. Are you going to get more?


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## Tinga

I don't know, I asked if they are back on a regular basis and they said their assignments are random. They seemed pretty happy I saved them a load to the dump though.
DH did give me a weird look when I told him " I got lots of GRASS" he thought I said I got a lotta.....yeah.:hysterical:


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## Freya

Forerunner said:


> If I ever see hell, I'm going to build a compost pile and plant a garden, before I leave.
> 
> Wouldn't that be a hoot ? :bouncy:



I hear it's a bit hot and dry there... better drink alot before you go so you have a full bladder. :buds:

ound:


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## woodenfires

I have enjoyed reading this fantastic thread!
Its funny how we get started on things and once we put our energy in that direction something happens that we never dreamed of, its like the whole universe conspires to help us out, all we have to do is make the first move. I started making compost years ago out of necessity. Living in the woods I found I had all I needed to grow incredible gardens, bit of this and that could be turned to black gold and then to very high quality food. Composting is the most enjoyable job I do, to see a pile of debris turn to magic growing material is always exciting to me, to have enough ahead for the next season is something that always feels very satisfying, feeds the ground and the soul.
I work in greenhouses and many times a day my answer to fellow gardeners who are having problems is compost, it cures most everything that can go wrong, I always encourage others to start their own composting piles and see the magic for themselves.
Thanks for sharing forerunner, very inspiring work you do!!! jim


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## Coloneldad5

Forerunner said:


> My pleasure, Rafter B.
> 
> Isn't there a compost pile, somewhere close there in Afghanistan, that you could pee on to tide yourself over a bit ?
> I hate to see you pining away, so..... :huh:


Actually the place is a barren dust heap. They could benefit a lot from some good composting. There isn't much of anything organic in the soil. Right after I came across this site I was in Afghanistan and spent some time talking with our Ag specialists. He agreed that composting would be highly beneficial although he wasn't much of a composter. He did larger scale farming in Ohio. 

I couldn't quite get him to totally buy off on it but I really think a concerted composting effort in Afghanistan would do wonders for their agricultural production.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

After a big day of pitching manure and woodchips on Saturday, we were blessed with an all day steady rain, which had me looking for good composting videos on youtube to keep the buzz going! I found a bunch on permaculture and I've watched "Back to Eden", are there any other documentary style videos that focus on composting?


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## Rafter B

Coloneldad5 said:


> Actually the place is a barren dust heap. They could benefit a lot from some good composting. There isn't much of anything organic in the soil. Right after I came across this site I was in Afghanistan and spent some time talking with our Ag specialists. He agreed that composting would be highly beneficial although he wasn't much of a composter. He did larger scale farming in Ohio.
> 
> I couldn't quite get him to totally buy off on it but I really think a concerted composting effort in Afghanistan would do wonders for their agricultural production.


it isnt so bad around here, the Kabul area, it is mostly Ag around here. but yes, they could benifit alot. they should get those USAID guys out of the office and into the fields and teach them a thing or too.


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## Von Helman

Forerunner said:


> If I ever see hell, I'm going to build a compost pile and plant a garden, before I leave.
> 
> Wouldn't that be a hoot ? :bouncy:




This was the first image that came to mind after reading what you wrote above about hell. 











Great Thread and I have sent you a PM to open dialog on a composting project I am soon to undertake


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Wife just called about a gift dropped off by the local tree company!:clap:
Still trying to get one on "retainer" so I can do some real Forerunner scale composting but every bit helps!


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

I'm finally luring Paul into composting ... in a round about way.

The tale of people standing around the area where he used my finished compost as fill dirt sobbing and wailing in distress (as suggested by FR) must have touched a nerve.

While I was in SC for a graduation, Paul pulled the weeds in our raspberry patch. The other day he brought home a couple cubic yards of wood mulch so I could mulch my flower and herb beds. I had plenty extra so I put the rest in the raspberry beds. When we ran out, Paul even made another trip and got some more so he could mulch the new fruit trees and the grape arbor. He's even going to go back and get some more for the asparagus patch!!!

Raspberry patch:



















Grapes:










Thank you Obie-Tim-Kanoby

eta:
Paul & I were talking over dinner how nice the raspberries and grape arbor looks. I told him that if we put the manure & spent straw right over the wood chips, then cover them with more wood chips, we would be composting right in the garden .... he's thinking about it hard enough that he will be looking for a used chipper/shredder at the big farm auction we have here every year in Hazelhurst!!!!

:clap:


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## Forerunner

A warm, thermophilic welcome to all the new folks. :grin:

Lovely photographic representations, Cyndi.

So you had Paul look over the prescription I gave you ? 


I'm envious of all you wood chip recipients, of late.
My carbon sources have dried up momentarily.
We're in the midst of a lingering semi-drought, so it's not the issue it would be, otherwise.
I just grabbed a couple wagonloads of Canton grass clippings and semi-finished compost for tater mulch, Friday afternoon. Kids likely gunna spread that today.
Also getting ready to spread 25-30 semiloads of some aged piles.....seeing as it's so dry and some of the pastures are thin, anyway, it's a good time to incorporate the compost and seed....just waiting for the next rain.


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## Chris.

Although I didn't have the material here in the city to make my own, YET, I got a truckload of compost, and it is amzing how instantly it improves the tilith of the soil. If I mix it in with my what was yard, hard pack clay, and we get a rain, the soil is eaisily worked. Now, trying to find places to get composting materials in the city without worrying about lawn chems.


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## Von Helman

@MullersLaneFarm 

this is a VERY nice homestead... I love it and the good vibe I get just from see the images!


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## heavyrebel

Well, I just spent about 10 hours this weekend moving 13 mounds of wood chips, grass and leaf cutting and manure into one long mound on the back of one of our paddocks! What fun! WE rented a Skid Steer and I learned a lot about using one of those. Having never used one before, it took a few tries to learn to turn in a speedy manner without destroying the ground. Next time the ground will be spared quite a bit. 

We are getting our massive composting adventure started, and now I know what I need to buy in the future: A compact tractor, with front end loader, turf tires, 4wd and, I think, a box blade. 

Our sandy paddocks and land should be good soil eventually!


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## MullersLaneFarm

Von Helman said:


> @MullersLaneFarm
> 
> this is a VERY nice homestead... I love it and the good vibe I get just from see the images!


Thank you! If you're close enough, try to attend our 8th Annual Homesteading Weekend next month.



Forerunner said:


> So you had Paul look over the prescription I gave you ?


Why yes I did and it had a remarkable effect on him.  He said if I gave him a skidster for his birthday, he'd be composting like you.




heavyrebel said:


> Our sandy paddocks and land should be good soil eventually!


Be prepared for the sand pulling the compost down and ending up with black sand ... at least that is what our very sandy ground is doing and I've been composting the garden areas for 10 years. The only place the ground is really nice is above the septic lines. It's getting composted on top and bottom!


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## Oswego

My pile just grew buy about 20% in size. I had a pecan tree to die from either old age or drought and it was way too big for me to take care of my self. I had to hire someone to take it down. It was only about 50 feet from my new compost pile and when they put the small limbs etc through the big chipper I had them aim the chute towards the pile rather than into their truck.

I noticed the chips were smaller than most chips and it turned out to be because they had the feed drum on the slowest setting which allowed the teeth to chop the wood into smaller pieces.:grin:

Now I need some more green stuff and mix it all in.


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## heavyrebel

MullersLane: Yes, I figure it will bull into the sand, but I think with the amount we plan to put over it will at least support better grasses and therefore livestock. I also think it should be decent, since muckbased sod maintains well here. Regardless, it will be worlds better than the fill sand we have now, which has NO soil to speak of. It will grow winter rye and native grasses, but those are not what I need. I figure 6-8 inches of soil, available yearly will build up well and help maintain some moisture.


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## MullersLaneFarm

I hope so, HeavyRebel. We're on a very active aquifer (iyr aquifer is about 25'-30' down & originates from the Great Lakes) and I think this is part of what is sucking the compost down.

Every fall we've put about 12" of sheet composting on one of the gardens, then turned the pigs on it. Nine autumns of this and I still feel like I have sand.


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## Tinga

am1too said:


> Now that'll turn eyes green with envy if not out right open jealousy. Are you going to get more?


UPDATE: Went out today and saw some fresh grass clippings in my pile. The workers had left it there for me..!! Didn't even have to unload it all. Need a BIGGER compost Pile


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## Coloneldad5

Now here's some folks that haven't gotten the composting bug.

"Compost company sued for $425 million over smell in Utah County"

Compost company sued for $425 million over smell in Utah County | ksl.com


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Coloneldad5 said:


> Now here's some folks that haven't gotten the composting bug.
> 
> "Compost company sued for $425 million over smell in Utah County"
> 
> Compost company sued for $425 million over smell in Utah County | ksl.com


Sounds like they need more carbon...


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## Rafter B

ok, you guys are killin me over here in Astan, havent had any updates on this thread in a week and no pics in a while. your going to make me have to reread this thing for the forth time. I am so addictedd. lol.


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## trbizwiz

Well, I've been away for a while. I sold my farm last August. Got an offer I could not refuse. We bought a comfortable house in town, with a postage stamp lot. It is pretty easy to take care of but not much for extreme composting. I have a small compost pile. I also have one of those compost boxes I recycled from someone who was going to throw it away. GO figure. I finish my compost in there. The move was inspired by an overwhelming desire to be debt free. we achieved that goal May 15. So we are saving now for nearby vacant land. I have my eye on a 20 acre patch 1/2 mile away, it will be available in about 3 years when the current lease expires. Hopefully i can pay cash then. Guessing $4k an acre. Its high, but we would not have to move and buy a new house. Plus the close proximity to town lends its self to lawn waste, and tree trimmings and wood chips being delivered to me for free. The richest men in the world learned early having other people do the heavy lifting for you will enable you to be more successful. i would assume the same holds true with composting. 
At any rate I hav enot given up on composting and organic gardening adn suchs. Just scaled odwn. Actually I think it will be a bit of a hidden blessing. Small scale, i can clean up the small details in gardening so i cna learn to be excellent. I am gorwing some organic tomatoes adn peppers in a raised garden. I built the raised garden out of composit decking so it should last and remain beautiful for a very long time. I then bought several cubic yards wonderful beautiful agend 1 year compost form a nearby city municipal composting project. The cost was only $30 and I filled up 2 16 foot by 4 foot by 18 inch raised beds. The municipality has very stringent standards for their compost and they do significant testing. The compost has been in the bed for over a month now and no weed sprouts. I did compaion plant basil, cilantro, and swiss chard a few weeks ago, and that is all coming up. 
overall I am very happy with the progress of the little garden.
I have learned about a new way to use compost. I dont know if it has been mentioned on here yet. But aerated compost tea, can be made with very small amounts of very good compost, and it can be used to effect very large areas. 
essentially what you do is take a small amount of compost, and other ingredients if you like, but compost is the most important. You put that compost in a tea bag of sorts. I used a 5 gallon paint srtrainer form sherwin williams. i bought this new. I did not want chemicals in my tea, so recycleing was not really an option here. I did recycle a molasis tub from a local farmer friend as my brew tank. I also recycled some soaker hose. I connected the soaker house to a small fish tank dual output air pump. I weighted teh soaker hose down with recycled bricks I had in a stack, adn filled the tank partially with rain water, collected in my new rain barrel. (wife would not let me do a DIY rain barrel. She wanted something pretty). The rest of the water came form the tap but was aerated for a few hours adn left over night ot degas any chlorine that may be present. Then I added the tea bag of compost adn turned on the pump. I added a bit maybe a 1/2 cup or so of unsulfurated molasis to feed the criters in the compost, adn let her brew for 2 days. Evdintly the science is that the bennificial bugs that make compost so great gorw like wild fire in an oxygen rich environment that has a food source. Evidently molasis is very similar to the food plants feed these same critters in nature with the excess energy they make form photosynthesis. 
Now this tea is used by gardeners to foliar feed plants. At the same time these little critters ward off the bad critters. Gardeners also use the stuff to feed inferior soil. Now I used it to feed my landscape plants around the house, adn I foliar fed every plant around the place, adn then used the rest to water in all my plants growing in straight compost. Over kill I know, but just to be sure we have plenty of critters working. I added a good deal fo fresh grass to my mix as well. Fresh grass (weeds form the neighbors yard) contain natural fertilizer in the perfect form for plants to use immediately, so I figure it is a side dressing, adn tomatoes and peppers like fertilizer. 
Time will tell how this works out. I have only done one feeding so far. But I'll do it one time per week adn see how it goes. If i have fewer pests, adn better veggies, I will guess it was effective. Though starting with pure compost as my garden material probably does nto give me a real good control subject. 
Any way I just wanted to give you composters another use for your compost. THis can be watered down 20:1 for most uses. I used mine straight because I made a 30 gallon batch adn had plenty. But a hose end sprayer for lawns, or a tow behind sprayer could allow you to treat acres with the stuff very effectively. THis would go along way to repair what chemicals have destroyed. It wouldealso help turn heavy thatch into useable carbon. In a way it woudl do somewhat what forerunner does when he plants his beautiful compost into dead soil. Only you would not hav eto use the awesome toys he has to do ti. Now the effects are likely not going to be as immendiate, adn maybe not as lasting. But organic improvement of any kind is a step in the right direction. 
I'll keep you posted as to how my veggies turn out. I cna tell you the way I built my bed allows for great drainage if I happen to over water. I have the garden set on a timer with a soaker hose so over watering is a likely hood. I figure the retreating of the compost with fresh tea will ensure I dont leach out all the good of the compost into the surrounding soil having none abvailable for my plants. But the grass for 10 feet around my raised garden is the most beautiful park like grass I have ever seen.


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## trbizwiz

Sorry the last post was so wordy. i am quite excited about my new project. I did not realize I typed so much until I hit post and saw that behemouth.


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## CesumPec

Ok, Rafter, thank you for your service and never let it be said I didn't support our troops. So here are photos of my project last week. This is the border of my land; national forest is on the left. We've had lots of wildfires lately so I wanted to do two things, reopen a fire break that had been created decades ago and get some stuff to add to my compost pile.

I started with this:










I reopened about 800 feet of fire lane to make this:










I pulled out what I estimate was about 2 tons of pine straw, leaf mold, small diameter trees, and sand. It all went on my compost pile. This is the south side of my property. I still have the west side of that section which is about 1200 feet and has larger trees. Loggers are coming soon to buy the larger trees and then I will widen the fire lanes to about 15 feet.


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## CesumPec

trbizwiz said:


> Sorry the last post was so wordy. i am quite excited about my new project. I did not realize I typed so much until I hit post and saw that behemouth.


no need to apologize. I used to think compost tea was just water that compost had soaked in. And I thought, what's the big deal, just skip a step, put compost where you need it and wait for rain. But then I learned that aerated, sweetened, and soaked compost tea results in trillions of additional microscopic organisms that work for you to enrich the soil and fight off harmful organism. And I got excited about it as well. 

I'm trying to figure out how to create a system that will create hundreds of gallons per batch and get distributed via something like a mega sized hose end sprayer. I want to spray my pastures and orchard when ever I irrigate.


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## trbizwiz

CesumPec said:


> no need to apologize. I used to think compost tea was just water that compost had soaked in. And I thought, what's the big deal, just skip a step, put compost where you need it and wait for rain. But then I learned that aerated, sweetened, and soaked compost tea results in trillions of additional microscopic organisms that work for you to enrich the soil and fight off harmful organism. And I got excited about it as well.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how to create a system that will create hundreds of gallons per batch and get distributed via something like a mega sized hose end sprayer. I want to spray my pastures and orchard when ever I irrigate.




some sort of venturi nozzle should allow you to siphon from a tank of compost tea into inrrigation hose, similar to the way a hose end sprayer works. As to making hundreds of gallins of tea at a time I would think you would need seriuos agitation, adn serious amounts of O2 bubbling through the solution. Not to mention the expense of molasis, thought that may be mitigated by substituting corn gluten for a good protion of the molasis. On the down side if a batch were to go bad you would have a real disposla, adn odor problem. I woudl think constantly making 30 to 50 gallons adn feeding it when it is ready would be a better solution that making hundreds of gallons at a time. The equipment would be simpler and more cost efficient. Your solution would be more diluted than ideal, more more effective than doing nothing, adn far cheaper than going full bore. you would also be able to build up your soil slowly. Sometimes slow is better anyway.


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## Rafter B

your welcome CesumPec, it is my pleasure. it is in my blood now, but hoping that I can quit in the next year or so. but OMG, your place looks amazing. I would have so much fun there.


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## CesumPec

trbizwiz said:


> As to making hundreds of gallins of tea at a time I would think you would need seriuos agitation, adn serious amounts of O2 bubbling through the solution. Not to mention the expense of molasis, thought that may be mitigated by substituting corn gluten for a good protion of the molasis. On the down side if a batch were to go bad you would have a real disposla, adn odor problem.


Agreed with engineering issues above. As to the sweetener, I want to experiment with waste fruit replacing the sugar. I'm trying to improve about 80 acres out of a total of 168, so I'm not worried about having to find a place to dump a batch gone bad and I need to make big batches if I want to make a difference in my lifetime.


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## CesumPec

Rafter B said:


> your welcome CesumPec, it is my pleasure. it is in my blood now, but hoping that I can quit in the next year or so. but OMG, your place looks amazing. I would have so much fun there.


My best bud, retired as a CSM in the Green Beret did 3 tours in Afghan. He's been out for about 4 years now. Take care and come home so you can build that extreme compost pile of your very own.

If you decide you want to move a little south of Indiana, say central Florida, just yell. I might just have a place for you to live if you want to take care of my place when work forces me to go north.


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## trbizwiz

CesumPec said:


> Agreed with engineering issues above. As to the sweetener, I want to experiment with waste fruit replacing the sugar. I'm trying to improve about 80 acres out of a total of 168, so I'm not worried about having to find a place to dump a batch gone bad and I need to make big batches if I want to make a difference in my lifetime.



true fact on the "in your lifetime" statement with that many acres. Seems the fruit should work. I think pretty much any carb should work. I do think molasis woudl still have to play a role as it has certain bacteria in it. I also think you woul dhave to experiment with small batches to get teh fruit concentration right. I think too much sugar can throw the balance of bacteria over to the bad side. Bad fruit may already have a surplus of bad bacteria to boot. Definately an interesting idea, adn a compelling "new" use for compost. Keep us posted on your progress. Ill probably start a 30 gallon batch Sunday. ill take a couple of photos to throw on here so those more visual thinkers can see what I am saying. The first batch was quite easy, and I brewed it for more than the recomended 24 to 36 hours. I did however add molasis after 24 hours. Mine still passed the odor test after 4 days, though there were mild undertones that time was short. 
I am real interested in your progress. On my next 20 acres in a few years i am thinking about running a small PYOB patch on the front 5 or 10 acres, adn rotational grazing on the back. If PYOB works well, i think it will as the property I admire is the first parcel just outside city limits so proximity is good, adn people wont have to drive. ANyway if PYOB works out rather than selling the small 20 when i am ready to retire adn really upgrade to a "real farm", I will expand the PYOB to the full 20 adn buy large acerage within 15 miles for livestock, extreme composting, and other adventures that interest me.


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## Rafter B

CesumPec said:


> My best bud, retired as a CSM in the Green Beret did 3 tours in Afghan. He's been out for about 4 years now. Take care and come home so you can build that extreme compost pile of your very own.
> 
> If you decide you want to move a little south of Indiana, say central Florida, just yell. I might just have a place for you to live if you want to take care of my place when work forces me to go north.




I have been here in Astan 2 1/2 years already. but looking to go with another company and maybe do another year or so and be done with it. and thank you as well for your service. lol not to sure I can get the wife to do that, but I have seen the prices there and sounds good to me.


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## Forerunner

Cesum....... you sure do keep busy for an old man what cain't make a fist. :thumb:

All this talk of tea has finally pushed me over the edge.
I wasn't gunna share, seeing as I do _try_ to maintain somewhat of a politically correct facade...... but here it is.










The old cooler, minus the lid and spigot, was found along the road one day on one of my trips to find organic gold. I didn't immediately foresee the use it has now been to put... but it wasn't long in coming.

Fill with finished compost, prop up on concrete blocks, insert bucket, and voila..... instant urine transmogrifier. 

I pour the half full bucket around fruit trees, corn stalks or other rough and tough recipients, up to and including dry compost piles.

As can be seen, it is in convenient proximity to the back porch, which,incidentally, is in convenient proximity to me bedroom door. 












Life is a trip. :yawn:


ETA....... Of _course_ other organic-friendly-type liquids can be transmogrified, as well. :indif:


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## Mickey

:gaptooth::stirpot: ................................:nana:


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## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> Cesum....... you sure do keep busy for an old man what cain't make a fist. :thumb:
> 
> All this talk of tea has finally pushed me over the edge.
> I wasn't gunna share, seeing as I do _try_ to maintain somewhat of a politically correct facade...... but here it is.


well, I exaggerated a bit. I can make a fist, but the problem is that if we get in a fight and I hit you in the chin, you are going to laugh and I'm going to be in serious pain. 

I like your tea maker but if I ever visit your house and we aren't fighting, I'm absolutely not accepting your offer of a warm glass of tea.


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## MullersLaneFarm

Rafter, Here's the new compost pile (upper left of photo)


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## Forerunner

Mickey said:


> :gaptooth::stirpot: ................................:nana:



Uhuh......... I hear yuh. :bored:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfnopkT37I]Toni Basil - Mickey (Director's Cut) - YouTube[/ame]


Cyndi....that's some pile! 

Whatever did you do to poor Paul to light such a fire under....... ?






Cesum...... the tea in the fridge is safe. :heh:


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## trbizwiz

One thing I like about composting, and compost tea in particular is it sorta makes me a jobs creator. Last week alone I put over a trillion to work. Now those trillion were beneficial bacteria and fungi. But hey jobs are jobs and the work must be done. Plus who wants funguys to be outta work. They are the best kind.
Now back to your regularly scheduled serious composting. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Forerunner

.......awesome commercials we have on this network..........

:bow:


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## Rafter B

Cindy, thank you for the photo. your helping my addiction over here. and Forerunner, that is a really cool compost tea maker you have. lol. never would have thought of something like that.


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## Mickey

Oh yeah Rafter B, you just stick with Mr Forerunner and your lady will no doubt be VERY happy when you take her for a romantic stroll to the poop pile to hang out whilst you "commune" with it :yuck: :teehee:


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## Rafter B

lol well that is good. have been dreaming about those romantic strolls for a while now.


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## Mickey

Oh nooooo :smack. Another one jumping on the poopwagon... I mean :bandwagon:........:runforhills:


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## Silvercreek Farmer

My wife asked me what I wanted for father's day, I responded: "Help me load manure, same as last year!"


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## am1too

Walked by my pile and saw a cloud of steam rising up! It looked like blowing sand at first. She must be warm enough.


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## Forerunner

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> My wife asked me what I wanted for father's day, I responded: "Help me load manure, same as last year!"


Mmmm..... gunna be a hot night _that_ night ! :thumb:



am1too said:


> Walked by my pile and saw a cloud of steam rishing up! It looked like blowing sand at first. She must be warm enough.


Put your nose somewhere in that steam and inhale just a little.
The sweetness of the fragrance is a bit too overwhelming for a deep pull.
It's kinda something that yuh gotta work yer way up to......
With time, you'll get the hang of it.


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## Mickey

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> My wife asked me what I wanted for father's day, I responded: "Help me load manure, same as last year!"


Oh I'll bet she was just overcome with joy at THAT answer :hysterical:


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## JohnP

I was almost a year without internet but am back and glad to see this thread is still steaming along. Been doing some small composting and at one point had a source of horse manure but that ran out so I had a pile of stuff sitting cool til I larnt the value of pee. Moved 1000 miles NW of FL to buy land and scrounge/save to build a house. My plans just don't always jive with someone else's so we're not buying yet but have run of quite a few acres where we can "do whatever we want" and in exchange I mow. Meanwhile I ran across a house to take down in exchange for the materials. 10-12k worth if bought new. So it's all flopped around and we'll have materials for the house before property to put it on. This house I'm taking down has subfloors of 1x12 pine with particle board over it and the particle board is flaky from moisture in some areas and not something I would want to reuse anyway. So what can I do with this stuff? It's basically very course sawdust but might contain some resins. According to wiki the resin would most likely have included formaldehyde but also urea. For now I plan to use it in place of the sawmill sawdust we've been using for our humanure toilet which I haven't planned on using the compost from for edibles (though I'm getting closer). Any thoughts on the particle board thing? It's about the perfect texture for composting.


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## Forerunner

Good to have you back, John.

I bet that particle board doesn't have much chlorine in it.
Chlorine is the one ingredient that will actually gag a microbe.

I'd go for it. Compost it hot and use it wherever the spirit moves you.


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## trbizwiz

Here is a picture of my fancy compost tea maker. It is a 30 gallon MOLASIS tub. 















The second picture shows some bubbles after only about 12 hours of brewing. This is my second batch. I am using very commercial bagged compost I bought at lowes because I do not have any home made stuff ready. It gets used real fast. 
The way I use compost in raised beds is great for drainage. However good drainage could leach out the good microbes. This should keep them in good supply which will hopefully keep my soil healthy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Forerunner

You _do_ pee in it when no one is looking......... don' chuh ? :hrm:


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## trbizwiz

Forerunner said:


> You _do_ pee in it when no one is looking......... don' chuh ? :hrm:


I have another bucket for that. I'm afraid to upset the delicate balance of the growing microbes. Thought about it though.


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## Forerunner

Upset the delicate balance. :smack:

That's precious. :indif:

Like showing up with a half a dozen more kegs to a Super Bowlâ¢ party,
I think the microbes would forgive you.......



















..........for _NOT_ showing up with those kegs. :thumb:


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## trbizwiz

Not that I would ever doubt you , but according to FAQ from Gardenweb:

12. Urine or Urea - yes, human urine is an excellent source of organic nitrogen for compost teas or as a free nitrogen activator for composting (45% N). (NOTE: Unlike human manure, any pathogens, diseases, or other mild toxins in human urine are quickly killed and digested within 24 hours after they escape the human body. Therefore human urine is very safe for all types of composting methods.) 

It just seemed to me that amonia in urine would be harmful to bacteria anf fungus. My assumption as usual was wrong. Ill start "communing" with my tea each morning. My brews are a three day process, so I can get 3 morning communings, adn 3 noon communings in there. I take zinc, and a magnesium, calcium blend too so I'll get a few of those trace minerals in there too. 

If anyone is interested in an all in one read on the how to's adn why to's of compost tea. Here is a fairly comprehesive read on it:
What are the Benefits of Aerated Compost Teas vs. Classic Teas? -

the source is gardenweb frequently asked questions page.

Side note. i just finished my second batch of tea this weekend. It had a much stronger sweat smell than my first batch. i do not know what that means. the only brewing difference this time was I omitted the extra bag of weeds. I only used compost this time. 
I am thinking about experimenting with brewing a plant tea. Using all plants and weeds I pick fresh immediately prior to brewing. Hopefully the paint strainer will filter out any weed seeds. But I am guessing those nasty weeds with the long tap roots will be a good source of hard to get minerals. God put them out there for some reason. They are often the first to revitalize decimated areas. Their growth rates are super fast so they must have lots of good plant hormones too.


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## CesumPec

Trbizwiz - thanks for that info. It confirms my waste fruit idea as being sound. I can't remember why, but something I read somewhere indicated that my particular soil situation would benefit more from fungal rather than bacterial inoculations. And your link showed ways to push teas one way or the other. Excellent info.


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## Cascade Failure

I have a new composting friend...a wood chipper. The Beast is living up to its name. Big stuff becomes little stuff becomes a pile. Good fun!


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## Forerunner

What...... no pitchers ?!!


----------



## Cascade Failure

Ok.the next time I get to play with it, I'll get some...


----------



## Cascade Failure

That sounds so wrong when I'm sober.

I meant the beast.

Carp!

I meant the Beast, a chipper, from Home Depot...


----------



## Forerunner

It's ok, CF. What happens in the compost thread.......is _supposed_ to _stay_ in the compost thread. :heh:


----------



## Mickey

Cascade Failure said:


> That sounds so wrong when I'm sober.
> 
> I meant the beast.
> 
> Carp!
> 
> I meant the Beast, a chipper, from Home Depot...


Um, what's it worth to ya? :whistlin: :hysterical:


----------



## Forerunner

Ya'll ever notice that a certain young lady always knows just when to show up in here ? :indif:

I think she's got a compost enthusiast fetish.


----------



## Mickey

Aw c'mon now Mr Poopman. Don't go gettin' your tighty ******'s all in a twist:flameproofundies: I'm just havin' a little fun with ya. It's all good:kissy:


----------



## Forerunner

See what I mean ?!!


:run:


----------



## Idum

Modest composting:spinsmiley:

I love this thread! I've been lurking for a year or more just enjoying all the info and friendship that goes on here.

I compost on a small scale... just a dozen or so bins about four foot square made from heavy wire. I have just been filling one at a time (about one a month) with grass clippings, leaves, pine needles, cow, horse and chicken manure. Upwards of a year later, it has reduced by half and then I use it on my garden and potted veggie plants.

I just had a load of chipped up tree trimmings dropped off. The guy says he'll bring several more as they trim power lines in the area. We'll see.
Anyway, my neighbor has had a standing offer for me to come and get all the cow manure I want from her herd of 50 cows. Another neighbor has offered his daily horse barn cleanings.(eight or ten horses) 



I think I may ramp up my composting a bit this year. 

Thank you all for a wonderful thread...Especially you Forerunner.

Jay

PS: I also commune with my piles.


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Idum!

*wipes tears of joy*

I always get all choked up when another prodigal returns. :grouphug:

Sounds like you've got your bases covered. :thumb:

Do you pee on your piles ?

ETA.....

Oh, sure..... PS _after_ I post, already....... :indif:


----------



## Mickey

Well I'M not the one asking everybody if they're peeing on their piles. So WHO has a fetish, hmmmm?:yawn:


----------



## Forerunner

*folds arms with impudence*

As the default instructor for this course, it is my responsibility to maintain awareness among the participants herein for the need of properly inoculated compost piles and tea generation systems, so hmph, already.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Mickey said:


> _Mr Poopman. _


:hysterical:

Poopman

Peeman

It all breaks down to some good microbes!!


----------



## Idum

Forerunner said:


> Welcome aboard, Idum!
> 
> *wipes tears of joy*
> 
> I always get all choked up when another prodigal returns. :grouphug:
> 
> Sounds like you've got your bases covered. :thumb:
> 
> Do you pee on your piles ?
> 
> ETA.....
> 
> Oh, sure..... PS _after_ I post, already....... :indif:


Oops....You're too quick.

Thanks for the welcome!

Yep, got some good opportunities, just need some time. Been working six long day's a week for a while though the end is in sight.


----------



## Rafter B

Idum said:


> Modest composting:spinsmiley:
> 
> I love this thread! I've been lurking for a year or more just enjoying all the info and friendship that goes on here.
> 
> I compost on a small scale... just a dozen or so bins about four foot square made from heavy wire. I have just been filling one at a time (about one a month) with grass clippings, leaves, pine needles, cow, horse and chicken manure. Upwards of a year later, it has reduced by half and then I use it on my garden and potted veggie plants.
> 
> I just had a load of chipped up tree trimmings dropped off. The guy says he'll bring several more as they trim power lines in the area. We'll see.
> Anyway, my neighbor has had a standing offer for me to come and get all the cow manure I want from her herd of 50 cows. Another neighbor has offered his daily horse barn cleanings.(eight or ten horses)
> 
> 
> 
> I think I may ramp up my composting a bit this year.
> 
> Thank you all for a wonderful thread...Especially you Forerunner.
> 
> Jay
> 
> PS: I also commune with my piles.



I am so jealous, I would jump at the chance for any free material. 

P.S. Finally made it home the other day, to excited now. lol.


----------



## Idum

Aw man, don't be jealous. 
Tell you what, I'll send you a load of free manure. You just pay shipping:bouncy:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Cesum....... you sure do keep busy for an old man what cain't make a fist. :thumb:
> 
> All this talk of tea has finally pushed me over the edge.
> I wasn't gunna share, seeing as I do _try_ to maintain somewhat of a politically correct facade...... but here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old cooler, minus the lid and spigot, was found along the road one day on one of my trips to find organic gold. I didn't immediately foresee the use it has now been to put... but it wasn't long in coming.
> 
> Fill with finished compost, prop up on concrete blocks, insert bucket, and voila..... instant urine transmogrifier.
> 
> I pour the half full bucket around fruit trees, corn stalks or other rough and tough recipients, up to and including dry compost piles.
> 
> As can be seen, it is in convenient proximity to the back porch, which,incidentally, is in convenient proximity to me bedroom door.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life is a trip. :yawn:
> 
> 
> ETA....... Of _course_ other organic-friendly-type liquids can be transmogrified, as well. :indif:


I hear this stuff has a very short self life. What is the difference in plain ole tea and aerated stuff? 

What would the advantage be of adding a sugar to the brew? I don't think we they're using the stuff for human consumption.


----------



## Forerunner

I never put mine on a shelf. :huh:

...I suppose aeration might do it good, but I use mine as fast as the bucket is full.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> I never put mine on a shelf. :huh:
> 
> ...I suppose aeration might do it good, but I use mine as fast as the bucket is full.


That is kinda what I thought. 

Do you ever double brew or cut it?

Also I would like to know what the deal is with pet poop. Is it because most piles don't get hot enough? or is it nothing more than a scare tactic for city folks?


----------



## CesumPec

the purpose of sugar is to feed the bacteria and fungi you are trying to grow. the aeration is because those same microbes are aerobic and reproducing huge populations; they are going to need lots of O2 to breathe. Without oxygen the brew will turn anaerobic, produce less desirable bacteria, and it will stink.


----------



## Forerunner

I do usually cut my tea, especially when it is so dry as it has been....makes another good excuse to carry a lot more water to the garden.
My mix has yet to offer up any odor, but, there again, it gets used pretty quick, and I don't double brew. But then, I plant in finished compost two to three feet deep. :shrug:

Yeah on the pet poop thing....most piles aren't well constructed, large enough or hot enough. Gotta preach caution to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## Freya

In all utter seriousness... you NEED a "Mr. Poopman" t-shirt to wear! :hysterical:


----------



## Forerunner

Well...... I generally don't do catchy t-shirts, but....the local sawmill, just up the road, took the Got Milkâ¢ thing and applied it to their large and imposing log trucks, with a bold, all-caps *GOT WOOD* emblazoned on the back log bunk of each.

I have seriously considered emblazoning my own version on the back of each of my dump wagons. :whistlin:


----------



## trbizwiz

Kinda seems like Forerunner making compost tea would be like Santa putting presents under his own tree. 
He built perfect soil with huge piles of compost. His soils should be full of all the beneficial bacteria and fungai. 
The teas will be more useful for those will poor soil and poor soil structure, think clay or sand. 
The tea's themselves will not make great soils either. They will help the plants do better, and their organic matter will get added to the soil, and over time will reproduce what Forerunner has been doing. But the only way to build dumptruck loads of top soil over night is with dump trucks, and loads of compost. 
We should all aspire to do that, and in the mean time maybe tea's can help our crappy soils too.
If I had Forerunners compost pile, I would not waste my time with areated tea. Well maybe a very small batch to foliar feed. But healthy soil will not need it.


----------



## CesumPec

Trb - compost tea isn't really meant to be a soil amender in the same sense as a thick layer of compost. It is a foliar fertilizer, an organic fungicide, a root stimulant, a compost activator. Some claim that it is a mild pesticide but some research says that all it is doing is creating strong plants that are able to resist disease and pests and in addition creates such high populations of beneficial microbes that pests get out competed. 

WHile lots and lots of compost like Forerunner has done will accomplish more than compost tea does within the soil, tea applied as a foliar spray does things that compost can't.


----------



## trbizwiz

Trb - compost tea isn't really meant to be a soil amender in the same sense as a thick layer of compost. It is a foliar fertilizer, an organic fungicide, a root stimulant, a compost activator.

Agreed about it not being the same as compost. That is the point I guess I failed to make. 
Though you have to admit that these aspects "organic fungicide, a root stimulant, a compost activator" are soil amendments. 
In addition to replacing beneficial bacteria and fungai that have been lost due to chemicals, or abuse, both natural abuse as well as man made. 
Compost tea is not a cure all. It isnt magic. You have to temper your expectations. But it is another tool in our shed to make our gardens a bit more organic. 

I would be interested to see lots of interested people using it. This woudl allow us to see if it makes a large difference on a large scale. Or find out if it is just over hyped snake oil. 

The property I own is a postage stamp lot as I say in my signature. The previous owner had used truegreen Chemlawn. I cna only guess what my soil profile looks like. I can say anecdotally that my lawn looks better this year, after my efforts, than it did last year under the chemlawn ccompany. The gardens are new this year. But I know the damage needs to be reversed for the soil to work. Now my gardens are all raised bed and rely on imported (locally of course, but imported to my property) compost as the primary soil ingredient. But with raised beds you have a new problem of leaching. My compost in raised beds is likely to lose many of the benefits of compost. the teas should add that back.


----------



## Forerunner

I humor myself with my back porch urine transmogrifier, mostly......but I think of it more as putting presents under the elves' trees. :grin:
That fresh, cool burst of bacteria and trace minerals in the early a.m. sure puts a smile on my melons, peppers, tomaters and fruit trees little faces. 
.....especially when it's particularly dry and they get a big drink of cool water to go with.

Heaven and Eden must be rather indiscernible, one from the other.......


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> Well...... I generally don't do catchy t-shirts, but....the local sawmill, just up the road, took the Got Milkâ¢ thing and applied it to their large and imposing log trucks, with a bold, all-caps *GOT WOOD* emblazoned on the back log bunk of each.
> 
> I have seriously considered emblazoning my own version on the back of each of my dump wagons. :whistlin:





*Got Poop?* :hysterical:




I foresee a difference in a man and a woman wearing the "Got Wood" shirt. :teehee: Though my father would proudly wear it! :heh:


----------



## 4crumleys

question on compost tea??

I usually make mine by putting 3-4 shovelfuls in a 5 gallon bucket. I fill with water then stir each day for about 10 days. My problem is that it burns my plants. I do not know why, and should I dilute it to what amount??? Any help appreciated.


----------



## Forerunner

You could dilute it ten to one and still be doing wonderful things for your plants.

If it's raining frequently, five to one would likely be good.

That would be safe, I think, then you could work your strength up from there if you chose to.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> I do usually cut my tea, especially when it is so dry as it has been....makes another good excuse to carry a lot more water to the garden.
> My mix has yet to offer up any odor, but, there again, it gets used pretty quick, and I don't double brew. But then, I plant in finished compost two to three feet deep. :shrug:
> 
> Yeah on the pet poop thing....most piles aren't well constructed, large enough or hot enough. Gotta preach caution to the lowest common denominator.


By well constructed what do you mean? What temp should a pile reach to destroy any evils? Would a large pile solve this problem? My pile is warm to the touch within an inch or so from the outside surface. 

I did bring home a load of straight grass clippings that were a tad warm and stinky by the time I got them home. They went right on the pile layered with small (chopped pencil size) already composted twigs. Pile now at 8ft.


----------



## Forerunner

Hmm. Sounds like your pile is well constructed, and getting better. :thumb:

Get that pet stuff in the heat and forget about it.


----------



## Mickey

Hmmmm. Things are kinda dead in here. Methinks someone needs to liven things up a bit:teehee:
Hey gang! Go check out Mr macho Poopman turned crybaby down in the FIBER ARTS FORUM!!:lookout::nana:
Waaa-waaa-waaa :sob: ound: eep:


----------



## Forerunner

Well, after all..... they was tears o' joy. :grin:


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Lol!!! :sing:


----------



## Mickey

Hey......wait a minute. Those weren't "tears o'joy" when you couldn't figure out how to get that wheel to make yarn now were they.....hmmmmm?:umno:
:stirpot: :whistlin:


----------



## Forerunner

I qualified my claim.... I did say, _after all_. :kiss:


----------



## ca2devri

OK, question for you large scale composting gurus out there:

I moved to this farm 2 years ago and was blessed by the fact that the previous owner had left an enormous windrow of old cow manure out at the front of the property. I don't know the original source of it, but it's large. If I had to guess it amounts to 200 yards or more.

Anyway, I plan to start a market garden next year and I expect to use this to amend the fields I'll be using. The pile has probably been sitting for 5 years or more. It has grown a very healthy crop of weeks of all sorts for the time that I've seen it. It probably has a weed load in it that is incredible. 

So, do you guys have suggestions for how to deal with this? I know hot composting can kill the weed seeds, but I believe this stuff is long past that point. I'm going to have it tested to see it's rough nutrient value, but what would be a smart way to use it without drowning myself in weeds next year? 

Some ideas I have:

- work it in soon and till several times to get a stale seedbed - haven't tried this but some say that it works
- use it only where I'm going to mulch heavily next year (still, I expect the weeds will bother me at some point)

Is there another / better way to deal with this?

Chris


----------



## trbizwiz

Just brain storming here. What about buying some of the 4 mil plastic sheeting from the lumber yard. The black stuff. cover the whole pile blocking the sunlight and creating heat. maybe even pile greens adn carbon on top first. maybe you can choke out the weeds that way. Then this fall distribut the remenants where you desire them. plant buckwheat or some seasonal crop to out compete fall weeds, but something that likely wont come back in the spring. Then in the spring till it in and create the gardens.

I have no idea if this will work or if it is practical. But I think I read of someone doing something similar. Myabe put plastic on the sites you plan to use as gardens too, killing off those weeds now as well. 
Some would use glyphosate. I am not a fan of chemicals, but that is just me.


----------



## Forerunner

Having the time, inclination and equipment, I do enjoy spreading an occasional massive pile in the fall, letting the weeds germinate and disking them in for more fertility, then the next batch of weeds is generally taken by the coming frosts....and, if not, disc again.

The combination of tillage and mulching the crop next season should save an appreciable amount of work.

Then, just build new compost piles out of the weeds that you do pull so you can feel like you're really accomplishing something, rather than just pulling weeds. 

We feed weeds to a penned bull, chickens, and any other animal that is between pastures, etc. 
As a disclaimer, we do separate the noxious varieties. The microbes love them. :thumb:


----------



## ca2devri

I figured that would be the answer: there's no easy way out. Hopefully I'll have time to spread it and till soon. I figure if I get 2 tilling phases in and a frost that should lessen the weed load for next year. I'm thinking of doing a really thick rye cover crop that I can again till in in the spring.

A related question: What would be the best way to spread the manure around? I was thinking of using my loader tractor and my box blade to spread it very thick. I could borrow my neighbour's small manure spreader but it's sooo slow (I'm impatient). I also wonder if driving the tractor across the ground many times is going to be bad for it. Not sure how to avoid though.

Chris


----------



## Forerunner

You might use the loader to get the bulk of the material out onto firm ground, and the box blade to spread from there. Keep the tractor weight off the bed where that material has been piled, as best you can, cuz it's gunna be wet and begging for compaction under there. Let that area dry out some before tilling. You could even leave it a little rough....the weeds will still come if they are there, and then till and level it all at the same time, when dried out.

Compaction (not to mention ease of leveling, even in soggy conditions) is why I am particularly fond of a bulldozer to spread the material.
Incidentally, I finally was afforded the opportunity to upgrade from my Case 550G to a much horse-y-er 850G.


----------



## ca2devri

Thanks forerunner... that's good advice. Maybe spreading now when things are very dry would be a good idea. In fact, the pile itself seems quite dry even. Ok, maybe I deserve a couple days off work to get this done?

I can just see my wife's expression when I tell her I need to buy a bulldozer!!

Chris


----------



## Forerunner

*whispers*

Just tell her you want a little one.....for now. :bouncy:


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

My wife had a watercolor commissioned for our 8th anniversary. It turned out great! Best of all, it has me forking compost!


----------



## Forerunner

Ya'll look like Bruce Holman's "Down on the Farm" cartoon from the Mother Earth News early days.


----------



## Coloneldad5

I'm bummed. I have finally finished with the military adventures and made it back home but my expectations are being shot down.

I'm finding harder than initially anticipated to find material. While there are several dairy farms in the very close vicinity pretty much all make use of their "by-products" themselves and I am unable to really get much of anything other than an occasional small pick up load. Not anything like the large scale composting potential I had hoped for and somewhat need for my new spread. 

I am contenting to look into other possibilities. Unfortunately too many around me already fully appreciate the potential of compostable organic material. I might have to range a bit farther out but as I am limited in my hauling ability this also limits my ability to get decent quantities of material. 

I am a bit anxious as I am planning on putting in some grape plants next spring (after killing off 10 plants from my attempt this year) and I want to do as forerunner did and just dig a 2 foot wide trench to put composted material in as the grape bed. i don't plan on going as deep as he did, but only about 2-3 feet deep. 

While I do have decent soil where I'm at I do have problem of the soil being a bit more towards the alkaline side which can be hard on some plants. Thus doing some serious composting will only help it in my estimation.


----------



## Forerunner

Don't give up. 

I can't imagine that the fever has caught on to the extent that you can't find adequate material somewhere close. There's always the option of taking on a little livestock and double benefitting from that venture.

I do suppose the drought has added some interesting challenges of its own....


----------



## MOgal

Colonel, it's fair season here in Missouri with all the livestock shows. If that's the case in your area, check with the fair manager before the event about when they do clean-out of the barns. The exhibitors are required to keep their pens/stalls free of soiled bedding so it could be a real bonanza for you. I don't know if it's still the case but there was someone with a loader to fill trucks and trailers for folks at some fairs I attended. You might even be allowed to get materials during the fair if you are willing to load yourself and be neat about it. 

Good luck and welcome home.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

A little load of carbon...








Doesn't look like much but probably clocked in at over a ton.


----------



## CesumPec

:clap: And Silvercreek even recycles pallets in the process


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

CesumPec said:


> :clap: And Silvercreek even recycles pallets in the process


Funny you say that! I actually started out trying to get rid of around 25 pallets that were past their prime ( previously used for a pig pen which turned into the garden in the background). We went to one of the county dump stations they told us they could not take pallets there and we would have to go to the landfill halfway across the county. Well, as long as I was there, I wasn't leaving empty handed! Ended up having to bring 5 of them back home to hold the mulch in place, but was worth it! Actually got the tarp to line the pallets and cover the mulch off of the guy in front of me at the scales!


----------



## MOgal

I didn't know there was such a thing as "past their prime" pallets. Once they have adequately fallen apart, the nails/staples are easier to find they become stove wood at our house. Or I put them at the bottom of new raised beds to trap moisture. Not sure of the spelling--hugelkultur?

We lucked out on 30+ not long ago through Freecycle. Had to make two trips to get them all and, bless DH's heart, he gave up sleeping in that Saturday morning to go get them. A bunch went under this year's hay, some we'll cut up for mini-pallets in the house over concrete floors and, yes, a few will see the wood pile.

Good load of stuff, SCF!


----------



## Copperhead

Now ya know, MOgal, if you sift a large magnet through your ashes, you don't have to pull all those nails and staples  

Just Teasin'


----------



## MOgal

I tried that with both an old compost sieve and with the magnet. It only took one nail to get my mower tire. Won't guarantee that was the source but a flat's a flat and it happened right after I'd spread ashes on the yard.

Good tip though, thanks.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

I have patched/plugged so many tires due to nails/screws in my relatively short driving career, that I am not taking any chances on my ability to collect all the nails from burnt pallets.


----------



## Forerunner

I wasn't gunna say anything further on this, but after letting it stew overnight, I felt compelled....
Burnt nails rust to powder fairly quickly, but not quickly enough to avoid being a problem for a year or two. If I know I have a few nails in my ashes, those ashes go around fruit trees, under grape arbors, or in the woods, close to and just uphill from my main garden, where rain gradually brings the potash (and iron) down where it's needed, without the nails. 

I just hate wasting a resource.

Another option, if you have bigger, hot compost, is to bury those ashes deep in the pile, where they can't dissipate the surrounding nitrogen, and let the moisture and acids in the pile work on those nails a little more.

Nothing is easy, it seems, and folks will just have to determine for themselves if the effort is worth the nutrient value.


----------



## Copperhead

Thanks for chiming in, Forerunner. I'm turning forest into pasture. I just toss my ashes across the fence into the paddock where the cows, goats, pigs, horse, chickens and turkey kindly incorporate them into the soil. Right now, the grass is coming in nicely in the top half of the paddock, but the bottom half needs help.

Yeah, with all these helpers, I don't drive over the area. Shoot, I don't even till my garden anymore: That's Pig Work! However, my wife is kinda mad at me. Seems that with the horse and cows grazing the yard, the grass doesn't get high enough to mow anymore. Shame about that! :teehee:


----------



## Forerunner

Dude......

Bummer.



:thumb:


----------



## KaiserW

forerunner this thread is fantastic, infact this thread is what inspired me to sign up for HT.

as soon as we sell our current home we'll be composting on a larger scale.
right now we live in a tight neighborhood and use a small composter and a small bin.

keep up the good work!


----------



## am1too

MOgal said:


> I tried that with both an old compost sieve and with the magnet. It only took one nail to get my mower tire. Won't guarantee that was the source but a flat's a flat and it happened right after I'd spread ashes on the yard.
> 
> Good tip though, thanks.


Get one of those magnet sweepers and mount it to the mower.


----------



## Forerunner

KaiserW said:


> forerunner this thread is fantastic, infact this thread is what inspired me to sign up for HT.
> 
> as soon as we sell our current home we'll be composting on a larger scale.
> right now we live in a tight neighborhood and use a small composter and a small bin.
> 
> keep up the good work!


Welcome aboard, Kaiser. 

You remind me of a cat my family had during my early teens. I don't recall, for the life of me, where I came up with it at the time, but I named him Kaiser Bill. :huh:

After playing with those little composters and stuff, you'll thoroughly enjoy going big. :thumb:


----------



## Copperhead




----------



## Anonymooose

Forerunner, 
Have you noticed any drought resistance in your soil this summer, from all your humus building activities?

Or mabey you aren't in a drought affected area.

Just curious!


----------



## Anonymooose

By the way, I've been chewing on this thread for a while and LOVING it.

We've been doing sheet composting (kitchen scraps with carbon sprinkled over the top) and have definitely seen an improvement in our soil life. It's so cool to finally see worms in the dirt again!!


----------



## Sunbee

I've got some questions for you all. First, about black walnut leaves. My dad's been told not to compost with them or incorporate them in the garden, they'll kill the plants. Seems to me when I was a kid and we didn't know any better, they never hurt anything. Which is it? With our wind all the yard rakings are out if the black walnut is out.
Our piddly little attempt at compost (kitchen waste) has been scattered completely by the chickens, probably be half a foot tall if not, but I'm going to see about the fair, and there'll be some stuff from the chicken shed by and by (they don't seem to poop much at night). I just don't have anything to haul in except two wheel barrows--what's a decent cheap sort of trailer? Dad's got a vehicle that can tow.
We're on part half-decent clay stuff, part creek bottom, (future orchard/pasture); part yucky-clay-infill-with-maybe-phosphate-mine-tailings (garden and yard), part scree slopes (wildlife habitat-eh, who am I kidding, the deer eat everything), all quite alkaline, with an average rainfall of 11" a year, but have a good well and the creek's never run dry and we have water rights, so while distribution's an issue we can get water out there. I've got some slave--I mean willing child--labor (Saxon math or shovel--they'll pick shovel). I know that other than water distribution and deer, the main problem is what claims to be soil. The main garden areas had a decade of me doing 4-H rabbit project to the good, but that was 14 years ago that ended (my folks didn't want to keep rabbits when I went off to college), and a lot of the good has vanished.


----------



## CesumPec

as far as walnut leaves...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that nothing produced directly by a plant can do long term damage to your compost or soil. That is assuming you run a well constructed compost pile that has good size and heat and/or sits a year before being spread on tender young plants. It all degrades and decays and the hotter you run a compost pile, the longer fungi work it, or the more worms that till it, the faster that degradation will occur. If someone knows an exception to this rule, please set me right.

That said, there is probably a way to so overly concentrate some natural plant substance by shear volume or human derived distillation that there could be a severe negative effect in the short run. So if you have some "dangerous" allelopatic plant matter like walnut, cedar, maple, oak, ash beech, sweet gum, wisteria, hosta, day lilies, or etc. etc. (are you getting the picture that there can't be that much to be afraid of when so many plants have this allelopathic trait) just make sure you are mixing in all your other normal kitchen scraps, woody materials, manure, and whatever else. Also, chopping the walnut leaves with your mower is a good way to make the decay process speed up.


As to improving your clay soil, one acre 6 - 7 inches deep is 2,000,000 (yes two million) lbs of soil. Your goal should be about 6% organic matter to get to what many experts recommend as the best, most economically viable soil. More OM might be better but it isn't so much better that you should be spending lots of time and money to improve it further. Once you have your soil tested and it comes back at say 3% OM, you know you want to add 3% more OM. And 3% of 2M = 60,000 lbs or 30 tons/acre. Wow, scary isn't it. And that amount will need to be added again every 2 to 6 years depending on how fast things decay in your area. I'm guessing because of your winters and low rain fall, your decay rate will be on the slow end of that scale. 

The good news is that ANY amount of compost will be an improvement and obviously if you are doing less than an acre you can reduce that proportionately.


----------



## Sunbee

Well, that's good to know. The chicken leavings have to set a while--maybe I'll use the leaves for bedding in their coop this fall. They'll mix it and I'm lazy enough to let them do whatever work their scratchy little feet can do.
There's about four or five acres that really need attention. I'll be doing a little at a time as stuff becomes available. I need to find out about renting a chipper--didn't get to burning the burn pile this spring. It's mostly wood not suitable for the fireplace.


----------



## MOgal

Sunbee, let me assure you, your chickens will do a great job of composting for you. We have 2 hoop houses, both 12' x 24' that I got in trades. We've fitted one with contained raised beds for growing cold season crops ala Eliot Coleman and keep the chickens in the other. In the summer, we remove the cover fabric from both and grow warm season crops. I start in the fall by digging out the not contained beds from that summer's crops and spreading the more or less finished compost on the garden proper or under fruit trees. Before cold weather, we put the covers back on. Then I throw in all the leaves, grass clippings and spoiled hay I can find until it's knee-deep. Next, I move feeders, waterers, roosts and nest boxes back in and then the chickens. Add more hay, etc., as it becomes available and occasionally scatter some scratch grain. Our chickens have gone wild for the bugs in the leave and grass clippings and do a great job of turning the mass. Once in a while, I'll empty a waterer in there when I'm giving them fresh water but it doesn't make a mess. By spring, we put the chickens back into the chicken tractor, remove the cover and plant in the not quite finished compost. Since it's chicken poop, I'm careful to plant only things to be cooked before eating. We usually end up with an average of 8" of compost over the whole floor without much work on my part.

I've had no problems with juglans or any other allelopathic substance in our compost piles either. 

Child slave labor and chicken slave labor. Incidentally, chickens can do a great job of spreading compost in your garden too. I have some feathered slave labor too.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Don't give up.
> 
> I can't imagine that the fever has caught on to the extent that you can't find adequate material somewhere close. There's always the option of taking on a little livestock and double benefitting from that venture.
> 
> I do suppose the drought has added some interesting challenges of its own....


I didn't and today I found someone had abandoned all the horse barn cleanings several months ago. Do they have a big pile. It will take me a couple weeks at a couple loads a day and they have already asked me to leave a trailer for them to load. And it is less than half my usual hauling distance.

God is good.


----------



## Forerunner

Anonymooose said:


> Forerunner,
> Have you noticed any drought resistance in your soil this summer, from all your humus building activities?
> 
> Or mabey you aren't in a drought affected area.
> 
> Just curious!


We're definitely in the drought.
I have farmer friends within a 30 mile radius who are in a very bad way, as well as some in a slightly different direction that say they're at least going to have a sustaining crop.

I am very much seeing drought resistance in several of the patches we garden, as well as....a year ago, seeing saturation resistance in the same areas.
I have no reason to believe that the compost effort here will not see my grandkids through both extremes, as well.

Our worst gardening this year is in a couple areas planted a little later, well into the drought, and poor germination was the problem....due to my having worked that dirt dry and having it not rain for two weeks after planting. That rain was barely enough to germinate the late sweet corn.
Now I am gearing up and over-killing on water retention and massive gravity irrigation....but that is another thread, if I decide it's worth the headache.


----------



## Forerunner

Walnut=juglone= 6 months in a hot pile=dead juglone=happy compost.


----------



## Anonymooose

Forerunner, thanks for verifying the drought resistance, as well as the saturation resistance. We've been sheet composting/ mulching and have seen similar results. I wasn't sure if the soil being bare would affect the results. 

I havn't watered anything besides my seed beds and greenhouse more than once or twice this summer. :happy: 

We're working on hashing out a rain catchment idea right now, and would love to see what others are doing! I'm sure there are threads regarding this, I just havn't found them yet.


----------



## Forerunner

Any thread pertaining to rainwater catchment is immediately scrutinized and demonized by the institutionalized................ 


ETA........ the following post even hurts _my_ feelings. :sob:




:buds:






:sob:


----------



## Idum

This Craigslist ad is enough to make me cry. I'm a bit too far from them.

FREE MANURE FREE DELIVERY,FREE,HORSE,FEED,HAY


----------



## am1too

Idum said:


> This Craigslist ad is enough to make me cry. I'm a bit too far from them.
> 
> FREE MANURE FREE DELIVERY,FREE,HORSE,FEED,HAY


You are not the only one. I did locate bout a 100 yards of stall cleanings within 10 miles and I have to load and pick them up to get for free. Then it is about 10 yards a month. But hey beggars can't be choosy.


----------



## fennydedron

I just had an idea, could you get the local hospitals etc. bring you their deceased people so you could compost them too? For a small fee you could offer this alternative burial service to the residents of your community since many cemeteries nowadays are running out of space.I realize, this might be a relatively novel concept in your area, but it sounds like that you can be very convincing and people seem to look up to you.I, for my part would love to be composted after my death but somehow my wife still has reservations against that idea.Can I contact you about that as soon as I pass away?


----------



## Forerunner

What is taboo today may be commonplace, soon enough.

I wouldn't mind being composted, but, I think I'd rather be buried whole, underneath a new apple tree. 


Winesap or old school Jonathon, if you please.


ETA........ composting would certainly be a viable option in the event of war or pandemic disease.
Just hope that the worst of the carnage takes place within a short distance of a sawmill.


----------



## Bluebird

Hmmmm...
Rain water catchment. We have a 40x80 pole barn next to the garden-a little bit higher than the level where things are planted- at least a 6 foot at ground level. I have often thought of putting gutters on that building and then asking my husband who will do anything that requires use of power tools to build a 8-12 foot frame and put an old milk tank (there are many in this area gone by the way from old dairy farms) on it to collect the rain water. Gravity from the tank should provide a constant drip to garden boxes and most field planted rows. Some will not as hoses would take a shallow upward trip and I don't think there would be enough umpf unless you had a pump to help it. We've been lucky this summer as we have had plentilful rain. But..food for though as the summer slows and it sounds like a really good early fall project. Wondering if anyone had thoughts about how to figure out if this might work?


----------



## Forerunner

If you actually have fall from _ground_ level at the building to ground level at the garden, then you may actually be guilty of asking a silly question. 



For purely warmish (above 32F) weather watering, your power-toy loving Hubster could build that tower at any comfortable level and you'd be good to go........

Just be sure to drain any above ground water holding receptacle completely....before the first hard freeze.


----------



## mudburn

A 40x80 structure with a metal roof would shed approximately 1,800 gallons of water per 1 inch of rain. Gutters can be fabricated from many different materials. I bought several 10 foot sections of metal ridge cap from a local company for $2.00 a piece (they were cover sheets for orders) with the intention of making gutters for my barn. I've not completed that project yet, but doing so will involve cutting out holders to attach to the ends of the rafters (a 2x4 with a V-notch to hold the metal, basically). Sewer pipe cut in half lengthwise would also work as a gutter, or one could do as the old-timers and hollow out a small log half.

A holding tank (or tanks) is important, too. In this area, I've found the least expensive and most durable catchment tank readily available is a 1,500 gallon concrete septic tank. I had 3 delivered last summer (cistern for the house I'm building) for $725 each. They do not have to be buried, just to have a good surface to sit on. I rented a core drill and drilled holes near the bottom of each one in order to plumb out a 2-inch pipe used to connect my three tanks together as one and to facilitate draining if necessary. In this area, the temperatures in the winter do not necessitate emptying tanks that are not completely buried, but WI is a different situation. (BTW, my tanks are buried into a hillside in front of the house, but my dad has 2 such tanks for a cistern that are only 1/3-1/2 buried.)

As long as the "shallow upward trip" you mention does not leave the output end of the hose above the water level in the catchment tank, there is no need for additional "umph." The siphoning action of the water in the hose will carry it over the rise with no problem. The key is to have the output end lower than the height of the water in the tank and to have the hose filled with water.


----------



## Bluebird

So...would you think that even a distance of maybe 300 feet to the last row would still realize a drink to those plants? I am not into physics, yet thought that distance may have some bearing on the plan. I should have clairified that I was thinking drip hoses as I have a good source, but for sure could take the end off and hand water anywhere. The stuff in the front of the garden would be good with the drip hose, so would be worth it no matter what. Good thought about the freezing water - lost my favorite flower pot not paying attention one year.


----------



## Bluebird

Thank you Mudburn and Forerunner!
I was wondering how much water there might be from that roof surface. Guttering just one side might be enough to start.


----------



## Forerunner

Distance won't matter....only elevation.


----------



## Mickey

Hey Mr Poopman 
Do you have any pics of your gardens this year? I'm thinking it might be good for folks to SEE how the soil improvement and mulching helps with the adverse conditions that so many are experiencing this summer.


----------



## Forerunner

Let me see what I can round up.............


----------



## NickieL

round-up? No need to kill everything to make folks feel better forerunner... We know your stuff is gonna be healthy.


----------



## Forerunner

These here taken right before the decent rain we had today. :bouncy:


----------



## Forerunner

A few more......after our half inch of rain............























































As can be seen..... a half inch of rain doesn't do much for the soil moisture, these days. There's another flurry of activity coming across Missouri.
Here's hopin'.


----------



## Centralilrookie

Your hard work and dilagance are really paying off. Great looking gardens and what beautiful little blond peach!


----------



## Mickey

Yep, I've seen countless pictures of the areas stricken by the drought and NONE of them looked so good as these. Clearly all of Mr Poopman's hard work is paying off!


----------



## NickieL

Watch those flea beatles on your eggplants. I thought my eggplants would be ok, but it got worse and worse and it finially killed them  i had to put the plants out of thier missery the other day.


----------



## Forerunner

I feel pretty bad about my eggplants. They're in the worst garden soil I have under crop right now. They've been fighting drought and hard clay that has received the least of the organic boost, thus far.
The sweet corn in that same garden is planted in soil that I'm much happier with, but laid in dust for weeks after we planted.....

The well mulched and watered maters and melons in that spot are coming along nicely.


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> I feel pretty bad about my eggplants. They're in the worst garden soil I have under crop right now. They've been fighting drought and hard clay that has received the least of the organic boost, thus far.
> The sweet corn in that same garden is planted in soil that I'm much happier with, but laid in dust for weeks after we planted.....
> 
> The well mulched and watered maters and melons in that spot are coming along nicely.


Eh, not to worry about those eggplants; BLECH!:yuck:
Oh, and when did little miss Lily become such a towhead? LOL She's a real cutie!


----------



## Forerunner

I think eggplants just look cool. 

.....and, they aren't bad sliced thin and fried. 


Lily has been a little blondie since her true hair color started to show through.
She's destined to become a wilderness kid, if ever there was....... :thumb:

You did see the pics of her and me spreading compost around the melons ? Political forum ? ......under "Terrorism you can sink your teeth into" ? :whistlin:


----------



## Mickey

Cute pictures. Now I think it's great that you're teaching your kids to garden, but don't you be corrupting that little girl with talk about"communing" with the pile :nono:


----------



## Anonymooose

This thread has been inspiring. 

We spent the last two days hauling old horse manure and bedding from a neighbor, with a borrowed 5 yard dump truck. We spread it on our pastures, which are very sandy and poor. We've noticed anywhere that we can get an organic "cover" (waste hay, wood chips), the grass grows so much better.

Now the chickens are in heaven. We parked the mobile coop out there last night. They are the leveling crew, in charge of spreading all the goodies!!


----------



## CesumPec

Anonymooose said:


> This thread has been inspiring.
> 
> We spent the last two days hauling old horse manure and bedding from a neighbor, with a borrowed 5 yard dump truck. We spread it on our pastures, which are very sandy and poor. We've noticed anywhere that we can get an organic "cover" (waste hay, wood chips), the grass grows so much better.
> 
> Now the chickens are in heaven. We parked the mobile coop out there last night. They are the leveling crew, in charge of spreading all the goodies!!


ANIMAL CRUELTY - CHICKEN SLAVERY! Make it stop!

Or maybe it is a great idea.


----------



## Mickey

Not to worry. It's okay; they're just "communing" with the piles!:nanner:


----------



## Forerunner

Mickey said:


> Cute pictures. Now I think it's great that you're teaching your kids to garden, but don't you be corrupting that little girl with talk about_*"communing" with the pile *_:nono:


If indeed imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then oft repetition of a pet phrase must run the closest second. 


Now......does this child look like she's even going to _need_ encouragement in the direction to which you so oft refer ?







































........ I didn't think so.


----------



## elkhound

forerunner....you and your family rock !!!!!!!


----------



## unregistered41671

I don't think so either. Curly headed and barefooted. What a cutie.


----------



## Mickey

Nope, I don't believe for a minute that this little angel faced doll would dream of doing anything like that........that is, unless "someone" put the bug in her ear to do it:gossip: :hrm: 

Oh and speaking of piles. Guess who has a nice big pile of free mulch sitting in her backyard? Yep, the tree trimmers have been working in the area lately and they brought me a nice big load of the shredded trimmings:happy:
It's really a shame that those of you so desperate to get this stuff don't live closer. There are mountains of it over at the dump free for the taking.


----------



## Forerunner

Still not convinced, huh.......

You sure have a dainty sentiment toward backwoods femininity. :indif:


















































































Now, let that be a lesson to yuh.

....oh, and, by all means.....congrats on the chips. It IS too bad more of these good felluhs didn't have closer access.


----------



## Awnry Abe

Wow. What a smiler! You're gonna have your hands full of boy problems in a few years!


----------



## Mickey

Now you're just showin' off:spinsmiley:
As far as having a "dainty sentiment towards backwoods femininity" ; I've been a country/farm gal for all of my 62 years and never saw any reason why farming and being a lady shouldn't go hand in hand. IOW, I've never communed with a pile


----------



## katy

*[/Forerunner,

i purchased incomplete compost from a municipality, about 2 yards maybe. In the course of a year or so it has completely turned to a black powder. I just remembered I do have a soil test kit here, but have you ever heard of this happening ? What could have caused it ? thanks.*


----------



## Forerunner

Barring something unforeseen, that black powder, if originally an unfinished compost, should be a perfectly finished compost.....

Were you going to try testing it, for fun, even....maybe ?


----------



## katy

Well yes, I am thinking about testing it, but how should the numbers look, in a perfect scenario ? I really don't know and I must confess didn't even think of it untill I started typing the note to you.

BTW, what happened to rich & crumbly vs powdery ????

Forgot something, Miss Lilly is just beautiful and so happy, it just has to be contagious. Congratulations.............


----------



## Forerunner

I honestly don't know how the numbers should look in a "prefect" compost.....but I do know how the watermelons, taters and sweet corn look. 

Your powder situation could be a lack of moisture, or it could be a more complete mineralization of your humus than expected in that amount of time.
Could you recognize any of the mix when you first got it, i.e. wood chips, leaves, etc.?
Did the original material have any offensive or stronger odor ?

Lily certainly is contagious...... I'm looking forward to training her up in the finer composting arts.


----------



## Kelly

Fate landed me here in the composting forum to find pictures of Lily! I fell in love with the family after reading Lori's blog and often think of them. I'm still having withdrawals after Lori stopped blogging, but so excited to see Ms. Lily! She is SO adorable!!!


----------



## willow_girl

Anyone close to zip code 15050 who wants some free cow manure for composting, send me a PM! I have plenty and am always happy to share.


----------



## Mickey

"I'm looking forward to training her up in the finer composting arts"
Um.....said "arts" don't have anything to do with "communing" do they?:nono:


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, goodness.....communing would be the least of it. 


Thank you, WG, for your generous offer.

That would be dandy if one or more of our fellow HTers could take you up on that. 

Thank you for the kind sentiments, Kelly.....might you be willing to elaborate as to how fate brought you to us this a.m. ?:lookout:


----------



## Mickey

:shocked: Oh nooooo! :run: little Lily! Run far away!!!


----------



## Kelly

Forerunner
Thank you for the kind sentiments said:


> Honestly? I was just stalking you since I hadn't seen you post lately in the countryside forums (where I hang out the most) and checked out the composting forum that I saw you had recently posted. I really miss seeing pictures of your family and think of them often. I use to go in to work and talk about what you folks had been up to that week (canning, gardening, baking, family time, etc). It was the one blog I checked everyday (besides my own daughter's blog).
> 
> Don't worry, I'm a harmless stalker...just consider me the granny from NC checking up on the children! (you've done an awesome job raising them by the way
> 
> Ok...back to composting!


----------



## Forerunner

*shuffles feet all self-conscious and sentimental-like*

Aww, shucks....... ya'll just make a young man blush.......




*ahem*

Yes, back to composting, indeed. :happy2:


----------



## Forerunner

Just a quick update on those fleabeetle-ridden eggplants that were suffering a bit more clay and less water than most of my crops are used to.......


























Lori has been deep frying, stir-frying, canning and souping eggplants for some time now. It's been several years since we raised eggplant, but I'm calling this year a success.


----------



## I_don't_know

I have land in TN. Most of 1 hill is very dense clay very few trees or bushes on it. There is a 600ft long hollow crossing the property. The run-off comes from over 300 acres. I am planing a dam at the low end, dam 1, and another about 300 ft up, dam 2. If they do not want there top soil, I do. Dam 2 is to slow the flow and let the soil settle. Dam 1 is for the fish. 
I understand the roots of a tree will not like the change in the soil. But do I really have to dig a 10x10x10 hole for each tree and fill it with compost?


----------



## Forerunner

Nope. Well, depending on the size of the tree being planted.

3x3x3 works for anything up to an inch thick and three to five feet tall.

I mix compost and other amendments with about the same amount of the native soil right out of the hole, otherwise the tree goes great guns until the roots reach the perimeter of the good stuff and get persnickety about reaching on into the lesser grade soil.


----------



## PineCreek Ranch

Just thought I would chime in on this post. enjoyed reading and looking at the pictures. Thank you. I look forward to the next ones


----------



## I_don't_know

Forerunner said:


> I dare say that a "commercial" use of compost in place of "commercial" fertilizer would be exactly what I like to see as a result of this thread.
> 
> It seems there are enough big time composers on this line to form a coop. Organic Compost would probably sell well in the cites.
> 
> Thanks for a great sit.
> 
> http://www.govdeals.com has a lot of equipment up for auction for those who want to go big time like you. :kiss:


----------



## I_don't_know

I have a couple of questions. I have about 15 acres of clay some of it is the regular red stuff but some of it is white, and very hard, the trees and bushes are small and space How do I get the compost deep enough in to the clay to plant fruit trees? 
Second question. There is a 600â long hollow running through the property that is drainage for 300+ acres. If I dam the hollow and lay in a number of drain lines through the dam to a pond on the lower side, how big a pump would it take to pump the run off âteaâ up the 100â to the top of the hill to water the garden and trees on the slope? 
Any input will be appreciated.


----------



## Forerunner

The question of getting the compost to the roots is reasonable enough.....just dig a hole as big as you can stand to dig and lay in your special blend.

As for the compost tea reservoir..... that could go in any number of directions.
Pump size would depend more on how many gallons per minute you'd like to transfer, rather than how high up the hill you need to go.
I've always been a monumental fan of gravity, and my experience with pumps is rather limited. I'd get with an irrigation company and see what they say about size requirements and what might be available to handle compost tea that might have an occasional twig or dead frog coming through.


----------



## CesumPec

exclude the dead frogs and what not with a a double or triple layer basket over the intake. For our irrigation from the pond, we use an old milk crate which is weighted to float about 2 feet under the surface, inside that a layer of 1/2" hardware cloth, and inside that a layer of fine mesh screen. We shoot the water through typical yard type pop up sprinklers and it is rare that they get clogged. 

As far as pump size, you know you need to pump to handle a 100 ft "head" (the vertical distance) and now you need to know how many gallons you want to pump. How big is the garden and how many gallons/minute to irrigate? Here's a link to calculate for you

Pump Power Calculator

scroll down to the Imperial Units portion and enter the GPM and the 100 foot head, leave all other inputs as they are and then hit calculate. You'll probably find that a 1/4 to 2 horse pump will do the trick depending on how fast you want to irrigate. Go with the lower horse model and you can power it with solar and just let it run for hours. Or let it run when ever the sun powers and fill a tank at the top of the hill. 

But a word of caution, there is compost tea which can mean lots of things such as what you describe, simply the leachate/run off from a compost pile but it is not the same as actively aerated compost tea which uses sugars and compost and air to create a highly aerobic microbial stew used to fertilize and act as a mild organic pesticide.

Another way to get the compost tea you describe is simply pile the compost at the top of the hill and let nature / rain / gravity take its course.


----------



## I_don't_know

The "compost" is the top soil run off from the 300 acres out behind me, it gets a bit mushy, we try and make sure the smaller kids get puled out before they go under, also it floods out the folks across the street in a heavy rain. I have a very strong allergy waist and the neighbors are not particularly fond of having to swim out to their living room. 
The more I think about it, man what a headache, the better I like the idea of just moving the dirt up the hill and let nature do the job. I could wear a safety harness and it the tractor starts to go under I can pull myself out, unless they make a tractor that floats. LOL
Back to business. How much fruit would I need in the pond side to make a good tea?


----------



## Forerunner

Know, umm...... bear with me, here, but I just gotta ask.....

Have you been puffin' da cheeba ?


----------



## I_don't_know

from forerunner "Know, umm...... bear with me, here, but I just gotta ask.....

Have you been puffin' da cheeba ?"
I don't smoke unless I get really mad! If the question sounds silly keep in mind my name is "I_don't_know" because I don't. The closet I ever came to a farm was watching my dad punch out a horse when he bit him on the hand, then he grabbed the horse by the ear and explained that was not nice. He then went back to feeding the horse grass. I guess the horse understood. He stood there and ate the grass real nice. He also kept a close eye on my dad.


----------



## Forerunner

HA!!

The only broken bone I've ever had still sticks out of the back of my hand kinda funny.

I was 19, in the process of shoeing an extremely unruly horse who finally pushed my patience over the edge. I punched him in the most immediately available portion of his body, which happened to be his hip bone. 

Nice.



Well, if it a relatively complete lack of experience that plagues you, in re agricultural pursuits, then my recommendation would be to skip messing with that large draw going through your property, for now, and just build and use some reasonable sized compost piles up on the flat, and go from there.

I don't know that it is your responsibility to assure your neighbors a swim-free living room experience, regardless of the weather, anyhow.


----------



## CesumPec

I_don't_know said:


> The "compost" is the top soil run off from the 300 acres out behind me, it gets a bit mushy, we try and make sure the smaller kids get puled out before they go under, also it floods out the folks across the street in a heavy rain. I have a very strong allergy waist and the neighbors are not particularly fond of having to swim out to their living room.
> The more I think about it, man what a headache, the better I like the idea of just moving the dirt up the hill and let nature do the job. I could wear a safety harness and it the tractor starts to go under I can pull myself out, unless they make a tractor that floats. LOL
> Back to business. How much fruit would I need in the pond side to make a good tea?


OK, I like the idea of trying to dam the top soil laden run off, but unless you've got a tractor, I'm not sure how to get the job done and no telling how long it will be before you've got useable land. 

As far as using fruit to make actively aerated compost tea (AACT), use good idea. but you need an air bubbler and several pieces of rotten fruit in a 5 gallon bucket to get good AACT. 5 gallons of AACT will cover probably a couple of hundred sq ft when misted on the plants, but much less when used to irrigate a dipper full on each plant. If I understand you correctly you are generating literally tons of water so your recipe would have to be doubled a thousand times over but you don't need that much AACT.

I have a backhoe and if i had the set up you describe, I would dam the hollow and then scoop the accumulated silt when it is relatively dry. Put it in my dump trailer and spread it out anywhere I wanted more dirt.


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> Know, umm...... bear with me, here, but I just gotta ask.....
> 
> Have you been puffin' da cheeba ?



What is "cheeba?"


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, not to worry.....it has nothing (well, pretty much nothing) to do with communing with the pile. 

It does so warm my heart, knowing that there is still some semblance of innocence in the world.


----------



## Mickey

Okay, I'm not sure what to make of your response, but again I ask, what is "cheeba?"


----------



## Forerunner

It be a euphemism for smokin' herbs.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> It be a euphemism for smokin' herbs.


that doesn't make any sense. I've heard of drying herbs, but why would you want smoked thyme and parsley? :gaptooth:


----------



## Forerunner

"Smokin'", in the above context, is more of an adjective than a verb. :whistlin:









:gaptooth:


----------



## Mickey

OK:smack I've never heard it called cheeba before:shrug:


----------



## Forerunner

I'm down with the lingo, see.

*envision appropriate rap music in the background*


----------



## I_don't_know

I have heard it refereed to by a number of different names but in JH when they tried to talk me into smoking I was busy making loaded dies (made them for $0.27 each) I had no need to buy and burn up little sticks. I always have been on my own track.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Just broke into a year old pile of wood chips this week. Pure black gold! I couldn't believe how well it had decomposed given that I didn't really add much nitrogen or turn it. I'm using it for a garden expansion and plotting on how I am going to get my next load of wood chips...


----------



## Forerunner

My experience is that a batch of chips with a lot of leaves mixed in will go ahead and break down fairly quickly. Clean chips will last for some time, especially if they come fairly dry.

You don't have access to any horse or other livestock manures out there in lovely NC ?


----------



## Idum

Just a quick note to say-again-I love this thread!!! Thanks Forerunner and everyone!


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Forerunner said:


> My experience is that a batch of chips with a lot of leaves mixed in will go ahead and break down fairly quickly. Clean chips will last for some time, especially if they come fairly dry.
> 
> You don't have access to any horse or other livestock manures out there in lovely NC ?


Our critters make plenty of manure but it goes right back on the pasture it came off of. I couldn't really imagine picking up goat pellets anyway! I did have a good source of hourse manure but the fellow sold off his horses so I am back in the hunt. I've been messing with cover crops/green manures forba few years but have not perfected my method yet. We will see how this winter turns out.


----------



## Studhauler

I have a load on my pick-up of 1/2 black dirt and 1/2 nitrogen (garden clippings) all mixed together. If I dump that in my compost pile will the dirt slow or stop the compost action?


----------



## Forerunner

Some say to mix in a little dirt to add that stable soil microbe colony to the compost.
You might mix it a little more than usual, but I wouldn't be concerned.
Unmixed, dirt would hamper the heating effect, but time will still heal all wounds (as far as compost is concerned).


----------



## ca2devri

That's interesting about the wood chips. My deal with the tree removal guy is turning out to be a great source of wood chips for me. I've been spreading them everywhere I can think of around the house, kids play structure, etc. I now have an old pile that I haven't touched in a year that's probably 5 yards or more. Now I'm curious to see what it looks like inside. It was quite warm when first dumped.

I have another 10 yards or so of recently dumped stuff. Although it's warm to hot inside, I assumed there was enough wood that it would need more nitrogen to break down. Maybe I'm wrong? Anyway, I feel lucky to have this guy and I remind him every time I see him how welcome he is to keep dumping here.

I'm also starting to go around the city on leaf waste days with my truck picking up bags of leaves that people nicely pack for me. I get a few strange looks, but I'm happy as long as not too many other people catch on! One lady asked if I wanted to rake them for her too. I said, no way - way too much work!

Chris


----------



## Forerunner

Once a load of wood chips has been slated for composting, an occasional commune with the pile would be most efficacious to the end of C/N balance. 

It is the green leaves in with the chips that give them the initial boost, so, the less leaves, the more communing that would be necessary to facilitate the desired end result......


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Once the folks in the Northeast get settled there will undoubtedly a copious supply of chipped tree waste for the taking, a scrapper could probably make out well, too.


----------



## CesumPec

I absolutely love wood chips. In my sand soil, they make the road firmer, improve the soil water holding capacity, block weeds, and become mushroom beds. I can't get enough of them and wish I had purchased a larger chipper.


----------



## Studhauler

How big of chipper do you have? I don't want to make the same mistake.


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## CesumPec

my chipper is an old Aspludh reject, probably built in 1979 or 80 because I was able to date the engine block to late 78. It is an industrial version of the Ford Pinto engine, very easy to work on and parts are cheap. I just replaced the alternator for $40. 

It will chip 5" logs but sometimes logs of that size need to get repushed into the blades. It takes a 20 ft long live oak limb about 1 second to get sucked into the machine and woe be unto you if you get in the way. There is no safety or brake, so it's a bit dangerous to operate. After running it all day, we will usually burn up about 10 gallons of gas and have dozens of scratches from head to toe. Last time out, a limb grabbed a good portion of my fave FSU shirt right off my back. 

I'm not clear cutting, but 60+% thinning 50 acres of oaks and 100+ acres of longleaf pine. I've only clear cut about 6 acres for an orchard, garden, and riding arena. The rest was just logged for pulp wood and I'm establishing silvopasture for cattle mostly, but will also have horses, and a few pigs and goats for entertainment and the freezer. 

The loggers left a score of piles of limbs and tops. In a few places I'm slow burning it in dirt covered pits to produce as much charcoal as possible. Charcoal is one of the best, long lasting organic matter soil amendments. Where the debris is near my roads, I set the chipper to blow as far as possible and scatter the chips down the lanes. They scatter wide enough that no further spreading is required. Where fire and road chips aren't the answer, I chip into my truck and dump them in compost piles where the garden and orchard will be.


----------



## Forerunner

My Valby chipper, made in Finland, will take an 11 inch log.

There are several features that I really appreciate about my chipper, the hydraulic feed being one. I can adjust the feed to take that log in at a very manageable pace.
There is also an optional screen insert that makes for a much finer chip.
In combination, the adjustable feed speed and the screen, I can slow the thing down enough to make sawdust.

The advantage for me, and drawback for some, is that the Valby is pto-driven.
Of course, a handy individual could rig up a trailer and frame to direct mount an appropriately horsed engine. 


All that said, some years ago I barely missed a mint condition Vermeer about the size of mine, only self-contained, on ebay....it was even within driving distance. Went for 4 grand. :sob:

Yuh do gotta be hardcore to withstand the input and maintenance costs of a good chipper, when it comes to extreme composting.
I haven't used mine in some time, largely because I loaned it to a friend in Missouri about 6 years ago.  (He is a very dependable and quite mechanically capable sort, so, no worries there)
My compost sources and applications, not to mention farm cleanup projects, have been such that I haven't missed my chipper....... much. :yawn:


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner, how many horses needed to run that Valby? 

How do you get 11 inch logs into the machine? 

And most importantly, how do I become a good enough friend to replace that guy in MO for about a year?


----------



## Forerunner

1. Interesting question....... the book claims 100 to be plenty.
I put it on my slightly turned up Deere, which is likely cranking out 170+ horse, and I can bog that fellow down if I turn up the crank on those bigger logs. :whistlin:

2. I'm a mean little cuss.

3. As long as I've been without it, and if you're real sneaky, you could probably just go snag it on a dark night. :indif:


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## CesumPec

thanks for the info. I found the Valby and have requested info. I like that you can make bedding fines as well as landscaping large mulch chips. 

And I'll need that address in MO


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## Forerunner

Incidentally....... if anyone on here lives in the vicinity of Memphis, or Downing, Missouri.......pm me and I'll give you the contact info of a man who would love to have someone keep his wood shop cleaned out of animal bedding grade sawdust and shavings........

CesumP.....if you were close enough, geographically, to make it feasible, I would gladly let you use that chipper, just so you know.


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## CesumPec

many thanks Forerunner, but I don't even have a tractor to run it...yet. I was just joking and being a little envious. I purchased an older JCB loader/hoe because that is more useful for land clearing. It is great for pulling stumps but no PTO. For the time being, I borrow a neighbor's 30 HP Kubota when I need to run something off a PTO, like a brush mower. 

Once the 3000+ stumps are done, pond has been dug, and a few other chores are complete, I'll sell the JCB and get a midsized tractor. In the mean time, I'll keep using my Asplundh chipper even though it doesn't get all my work done and only gives me chip hills instead of chip mountains.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Hurray for bigger trailer sides! 










Picked up three loads on Friday. By my math each load is 4+ yards at $5 a load. The town dump charges the same no matter the size of your trailer, so the higher you can pile it the better!


----------



## am1too

I am wondering how often or how much compost is added to your garden. I am told compost becomes worthless after year 2 in the ground. Some say this is because of tilling.


----------



## CesumPec

you might say compost was worthless after two years or less if you are looking just for the nitrogen boost to fertilize your crops. But humus is the result of the decay of organim matter and will be <1% of the original compost. Humus is a very long lasting carbon that improves soil in all cases. The time it takes to compost to decay varies from 1 to 5 years depending on your winter temps, rainfall, and soil makeup. In my sandy soil and warm winters, it is mostly gone after two years.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

am1too said:


> I am wondering how often or how much compost is added to your garden. I am told compost becomes worthless after year 2 in the ground. Some say this is because of tilling.


I like a good 10-12 inches to kick things off on new ground, then around 4-6 inches a year to keep things going well. I think long, hot summers certainly hasten the eventual "vaporization" of your compost, and I think it does last longer if you do not till. If you decied to go the no-till route make sure you cover your compost applications with some organic mulch (Wood chip mulch, hay, straw, ect) to keep the sun off of it, which also hastens "vaporization". I usually apply my compost in the "half-cooked" phase rather than letting it completely break down into the crumbly black phase. I figure it can finish up while plants are growing in it, and it lasts longer this way too.


----------



## Forerunner

Compost is a boost, at first, and a storage media, after.

Sand or clay just don't have storage capacity for basic nutrients. Clay holds the trace minerals, but won't even let the plants take those up without the enzyme activity in compost. But, once you get a good layer of compost in....I like Silvercreeks 10-12 inch start, with a 4-6 inch boost each year or every other.... your organic nutrients hang around and any nitrogen you might add will maintain a lot better in the event of excessive rain or drought. Same for potash and phosphorus, etc.
Ten years down the road, I'll take composted ground that has "quit" (though really not the case) over raw clay, sand or timber soil.
That said, a regular incorporation of any kind of organic mulch will sustain that compost and microbial activity, once the initial boost of heavy composting has been accomplished. ....and that can be sustained by hand work, for the duration.

Again, give me the heavily composted soil to start with...so that I can maintain by hand down the road, if need be.


----------



## am1too

Thanks Guys. That helps my understanding loads. appreaciate it very much.


----------



## CesumPec

my old but new to me composting toy








[/IMG]

after completing the thinning logging, I've been left with thousands of stumps and slash everywhere. The loggers did put the slash in piles, but there is still so much to do I broke down a got the root rake. It is about 500 lbs too heavy for my machine so I'm going to cut off a foot from each end. It's so heavy that it busted through a couple of the board on that trailer bed so I also get to redeck the trailer before returning it to my neighbor. I'll use the old wood to corral compost. 

I'm pulling acres of stumps with the backhoe, but that leaves me with stumps that are often in excess of 200 lbs. Using the loader bucket to pile the stumps was removing too much soil and didn't give me nice burn piles. Where I need to get 20 acres ready for horses, I'm stumping and burning. Elsewhere I'm either leaving the stumps in the ground to rot if tghey won't be in the way, or piling the stumps to let them compost. I'll put some manure on the piles to accelerate composting.


----------



## CesumPec

On the way back from picking up the root rake, I was eyeing this truck and thinking that it's load would be a great chip pile accelerator and I noticed their special message. Had to laugh. 








[/IMG]


----------



## Forerunner

Now those boys have their heads in the right place. :thumb:

Cesum.....it looks like you got plenty to keep you busy.


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## Studhauler

CesumPec said:


> The loggers left a score of piles of limbs and tops. In a few places I'm slow burning it in dirt covered pits to produce as much charcoal as possible. Charcoal is one of the best, long lasting organic matter soil amendments.


I have a huge pile of stumps on the corner of my property, They are at least 10 years old and half rotten. By huge I mean 10 to 20 truck loads. Do you think this would work for them? Will you dig up the charcoal and incorporate it into the soil with your other compost?


----------



## Studhauler

I have been considering getting a chipper. If I had one I could get all the carbon I would ever need. The question is size and how much to spend. I have access to a 30 hp garden tractor but I don't think that would power a very big chipper. I was thinking self propelled with a hydraulic feed, but then we are talking big bucks.


----------



## Forerunner

If a man had to go broke, he might as well do it returning carbon to the soil. :buds:


----------



## CesumPec

Studhauler said:


> I have a huge pile of stumps on the corner of my property, They are at least 10 years old and half rotten. By huge I mean 10 to 20 truck loads. Do you think this would work for them? Will you dig up the charcoal and incorporate it into the soil with your other compost?


first, check you local fire dept, forestry office, or DNR and make sure burning is legal. In FL, I have to call the forestry fire dept and get a burn permit each morning that is good for that day only. When things are dry it can be months long waits for a permit. 

Yes, burning will get rid of those stumps, at least it has with my oak and longleaf pine stumps. And that's one of the reasons I bought a root rake for the loader/hoe so that I could spread the charcoal from my burn piles. My preference is allowing things to rot, I think rotting piles create more life. But where i need clear pastures within the next year, burning has to be the way.


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## Studhauler

I have tried to burn stump piles before but the never burned. How do you do it? Do you burn above ground or open pit or burry them and burn them to get charcoal?


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## CesumPec

have done both open pit and above ground, no real difference in results. once they are burning hot, I mostly cover the piles with soil and they will burn/smolder for several days. I use waste motor oil to get them lit. I tried gas but it just flashes off without creating heat; oil burns slowly enough that it gets the wood pile going. 

There is a lot of pine tar in these longleaf pine stumps. In fact, in the age of wooden ships and iron men, the highly flammable tar rendered from longleaf pine was used to caulk the ship's seams. So maybe it is easier for me to get a good burn going.


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## CesumPec

I did a burn two days ago and the piles are still smoldering. The main pile was about 80 ft x 20 x 10 ft high. It was mostly slash debris but also included 30 - 40 stumps. Some of them didn't burn, but the ones deepest in the pile or partially covered by dirt did burn long enough to get completely or mostly consumed. The second photo is 2 days later and you can see several stumps that remaining but still getting worked. I'll combine all the remains into another pile and stack up another 50 - 100 stumps and burn again in another month. 

The char will get spread over that ~10 acre field along with compost and chips and hopefully get planted in the next couple of months. Being in central FL, I won't get much grass growth but no harm in getting the seed in ASAP. 








[/IMG]








[/IMG]


----------



## Forerunner

Who was that little feller walking through the fire in the first pic. :huh:


----------



## CesumPec

That is the devil himself. The fire got so big and hot that the devil thought he would open an annex. Either that, or it is my neighbor and occasional farmhand. An excellent worker who has saved me several times.


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## Forerunner

We should get together, buy 500 acres of wasteland, and show the world how to make things happen.

Why is it that ambition and drive are limited to single digits ? :indif:


----------



## Copperhead

Forerunner said:


> We should get together, buy 500 acres of wasteland, and show the world how to make things happen.
> 
> Why is it that ambition and drive are limited to single digits ? :indif:


Because someone, somewhere is afraid you really would try to take over the world!!!


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## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> We should get together, buy 500 acres of wasteland, and show the world how to make things happen.
> 
> Why is it that ambition and drive are limited to single digits ? :indif:


I would love to, but the trouble is you live in the great white north and I live where God intended composting to happen. :happy:


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## CesumPec

As you can see from my photos, there is lots of stuff to sort. Because I'm trying to get this field into decent pasture ASAP, I want to spread the fines to improve the soil and remove everything else. Mediums will go to the compost pile and large stumps will go back to another burn pile. 

I've been noodling how to build a screener. A trommel would be just the thing, but i don't have enough of the materials at hand, like an engine to turn the bin or two axles and wheels to sit the bin on. What i do have materials for, like telephone poles for the corners and expanded metal for the screen, is something approximating this:








[/IMG]

My thoughts - my FEL reaches to 9' so I'll make the front (high sloped side) about 8'. Make it about 2' wider than my FEL bucket. Put it on skids so that I can move it around. Keep the front clear of supports so that I can either park a dump cart under the screen to self load or drive the FEL in to carry off the fines. Park another trailer beneath the reject end to self load with the items going to the compost or re-burn piles. My FEL has a 1.5 yd bucket with a load capacity of 5000 lbs, so the screen needs to be able to carry at least that much weight. I have plenty of 2000 lb chain, so that in each corner to hang the screen is probably good enough.

Any other ideas to make this deal more efficient or effective before I start sawing telepoles and the 2x8s left over from re-decking the flatbed trailer?


----------



## Studhauler

I would put more triangle braces in yours than this pictures has. The bigger the triangles the more stable it will be. I would also put some kind of sides on the screen to keep the compost from falling off the sides if you happen to dump to quick.


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## Forerunner

I'd just buy an 800-1000 HP tub grinder and call it a day. :whistlin:


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## Studhauler

I'll buy you one too while I am at it.


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## CesumPec

Forerunner, I've got a bad net connection and your message came thru a bit garbled. But as i understand it, you are buying me eight hundred 1000 HP tubgrinders. Thanks, one will be sufficient.


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah, darn typos.

I fixed it. 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. :grin:


----------



## Anonymooose

Wait, someone's handing out tub grinders?!? 

Me too, send one to me too!!! :bouncy:

We have a monstrous pile- as in 10' by 120' long- of red pine tops that need cleaned. The neighbors all say we should burn it all, but we just can't bring ourselves to do it just yet. All those lovely chips :sob: 

Although, after a few days behind a 6" chipper, lighting it up sounds miiighty tempting. 

We talked to one of the local chipper guys who has a 12" chipper, and he wouldn't touch it. Said there might be some metal in there that would hurt his chipper. Boo hoo.


----------



## CesumPec

old dry wood is rough on chipper blades. my chipper has needed far more maintenance on dry soft pine than it did for fresh cut hard oak.

why are you worried that metal could be in your pile of tops?


----------



## Anonymooose

*We're* not worried, but it's not untotally likely I guess. There were several old tree stands found as the timber was harvested, but you would think the nails and such would be lower down the tree, and not in the tops. :shrug:

Really, it's just an excuse. He doesn't want the job.

Interesting about the dry wood being harder on the chipper blades. I would have thought it to be the other way around.


----------



## Forerunner

Get out your pocket knife, and go find a dry stick with no bark (seasoned, but not rotting), and a green stick.
Carve both to a point, and see which carves easier (less horsepower required) and which dulls the knife faster.

Then just go get a tub grinder, cuz those teeth don't care whether its wet, dry, old, new, clean, dirty, pretty, ugly....... and they don't mind the occasional nail, wire or railroad spike or chunk of concrete. :strongbad:

Man, I wish I had a tub grinder. 

:sob:


----------



## CesumPec

I'm not naming names, but there is this guy around here who is absolutely nuts about tub grinders and the stuff that comes out of them. I mean, the guy is REALLY nuts. He's is so nuts he would put nuts thru a tub grinder. 

And that reminds me, last month I was looking at a recently completed home and to mulch the planting beds, they used sheets of cardboard from when they moved in (good reuse of a resource and great weed barrier) covered with ground peanut husks from a nearby processing plant. It looked great. 

But I digress, the point of this message is the nutty tub grinder guy. His nuttiness is extreme.


----------



## Forerunner

I have lain awake, nights, contemplating just how to go about beginning construction on one. :indif:

I think if I bought the grinder drum with the teeth studs already welded in place.....you know, to avoid that ticklish balancing detail....... :heh:..... the rest of it might could be slapped together from old washing machines and hair dryer parts and stuff. :shrug:


----------



## Al Von

am1too said:


> Get one of those magnet sweepers and mount it to the mower.


Like a mine sweeper on a tank!


----------



## Al Von

I have just finished this thread and have thoroughly enjoyed it! I joined this site only a few short months ago, and have already started, and communed with, a compost pile.

My fiancee' bought 10 acres with a barn, and we moved her horses in. There was 2 feet of old manure and bedding in the stalls. Piling it outside, I have been adding fresh manure and whatever browns I can find. It is just uphill of the field that a neighbour just took the corn off of. Thanks everyone for this entertaining and educational thread!


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Al !!! :grin:

Starting a pile is expected around here, especially for beginners, but to already have communed....... now that is divine.

Just don't tell Mickey.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgiCvavYWCg&feature=related]toni basil - mickey / director's cut (hq) - YouTube[/ame]


:spinsmiley:


----------



## Cascade Failure

In anticipation of beginning a new project I went back and re-read this entire thread. What a great read! I also realized that I still owe Forerunner pics of the wood chipper I picked up awhile ago.

The project...

Long story short, I have several rock ringed depressions that I need to fill in to create more growing space. I am going to have to approach Forerunner/Mudburn/CesumPec status to get this done. To this end I have located a source of free manure, the wood chipper is getting a work out, and I need to get my hands on a tractor.

This should be fun.


----------



## Mickey

Al Von said:


> I have just finished this thread and have thoroughly enjoyed it! I joined this site only a few short months ago, and have already started, and communed with, a compost pile.
> 
> My fiancee' bought 10 acres with a barn, and we moved her horses in. There was 2 feet of old manure and bedding in the stalls. Piling it outside, I have been adding fresh manure and whatever browns I can find. It is just uphill of the field that a neighbour just took the corn off of. Thanks everyone for this entertaining and educational thread!


No no no!!! Say it ain't so!! :tmi:

Forerunnerrrrrrrr! What have you done??!!:smack:help: 
Run people, run far away, else you too be corrupted by the Poopman!!
:runforhills:


----------



## Forerunner

That Mickey.....she don't miss a beat, now. :thumb:

Let that be a lesson to some of you fair weather compost thread followers.

We can't post a mouse scratching behind his ears but what Mickey don't hear it and come a runnin'. :bow:


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> That Mickey.....she don't miss a beat, now. :thumb:
> 
> Let that be a lesson to some of you fair weather compost thread followers.
> 
> We can't post a mouse scratching behind his ears but what Mickey don't hear it and come a runnin'. :bow:



And jus don't you fergit it mister.:nono: :nana:
You'd better behave yourself or I'll have to tell everyone:gossip: to go down to the fiber arts forum to check out Mr Poopman struttin' his stuff modeling his latest fine fashions for the ladies down thereound:


----------



## Forerunner

In the pursuit of renaissance status, one must explore a variety of horizontal expansions. :shrug:

That and, knitting keeps me sedated. 












Pray I don't run out of yarn. :bored:


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I'm not naming names, but there is this guy around here who is absolutely nuts about tub grinders and the stuff that comes out of them. I mean, the guy is REALLY nuts. He's is so nuts he would put nuts thru a tub grinder.
> 
> And that reminds me, last month I was looking at a recently completed home and to mulch the planting beds, they used sheets of cardboard from when they moved in (good reuse of a resource and great weed barrier) covered with ground peanut husks from a nearby processing plant. It looked great.
> 
> But I digress, the point of this message is the nutty tub grinder guy. His nuttiness is extreme.


I have acces to unlimited and get tub grinder offal and it is truely awful what is found in that stuff and the compost made from it. But it is far better these days than when I first started getting it - less trash. 

The interesting thing is I get finished compost from it cheaper than I can make it. So I do not mind sorting out the trash. I pile the metal up for the scrap yard. I take the true trash (less than 1%) back to them for disposal.


----------



## am1too

Say while I am here, I heard that oak leaves have more N than horse pucks. Is that true? Then could they be used as a green in compost?


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> As you can see from my photos, there is lots of stuff to sort. Because I'm trying to get this field into decent pasture ASAP, I want to spread the fines to improve the soil and remove everything else. Mediums will go to the compost pile and large stumps will go back to another burn pile.
> 
> I've been noodling how to build a screener. A trommel would be just the thing, but i don't have enough of the materials at hand, like an engine to turn the bin or two axles and wheels to sit the bin on. What i do have materials for, like telephone poles for the corners and expanded metal for the screen, is something approximating this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> My thoughts - my FEL reaches to 9' so I'll make the front (high sloped side) about 8'. Make it about 2' wider than my FEL bucket. Put it on skids so that I can move it around. Keep the front clear of supports so that I can either park a dump cart under the screen to self load or drive the FEL in to carry off the fines. Park another trailer beneath the reject end to self load with the items going to the compost or re-burn piles. My FEL has a 1.5 yd bucket with a load capacity of 5000 lbs, so the screen needs to be able to carry at least that much weight. I have plenty of 2000 lb chain, so that in each corner to hang the screen is probably good enough.
> 
> Any other ideas to make this deal more efficient or effective before I start sawing telepoles and the 2x8s left over from re-decking the flatbed trailer?


I just made a slanted screen on a fixed frame. The frame is half an A frame. I attached a 8' length of cattle pannel over layes with 1/4 inch hardware cloth. The bottom has metal roofing attached to seperate the large from the fines. Cheap but does the trick. Will stand up to FEL.


----------



## Forerunner

am1too said:


> Say while I am here, I heard that oak leaves have more N than horse pucks. Is that true? Then could they be used as a green in compost?


That would be remotely possible if the leaves were fresh and hadn't lost any moisture...... say, while chipping freshly downed stuff.
Otherwise those leaves would make excellent carbon w/ a spot of extra trace minerals thrown in. 

I wouldn't knock horse pucks, especially if I had access to plenty along with tub grinder offal.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> That would be remotely possible if the leaves were fresh and hadn't lost any moisture...... say, while chipping freshly downed stuff.
> Otherwise those leaves would make excellent carbon w/ a spot of extra trace minerals thrown in.
> 
> I wouldn't knock horse pucks, especially if I had access to plenty along with tub grinder offal.


The best offal is the summer stuff cause it has loads of grass and other green material. It cooks all by itself.

Thanks about the leaves. It is what I thought.

My hores pucks come with about 95% sawdust from stall cleanings. My source produces about 3500 yards a year.


----------



## Forerunner

I love my sawdusty horse pucks. 

My other sources all come either balanced or N-rich, at this point in time.....


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> I have acces to unlimited and get tub grinder offal.


Hey, hey, hey. There is no need to be a braggart! :Bawling:

And as far as sorting out >1% trash, I say fair trade of carbon for labor. Well done sir.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> I just made a slanted screen on a fixed frame. The frame is half an A frame. I attached a 8' length of cattle pannel over layes with 1/4 inch hardware cloth. The bottom has metal roofing attached to seperate the large from the fines. Cheap but does the trick. Will stand up to FEL.


I was wondering about using an A frame, mostly because of the possibility of making the thing more easily mobile. Do you move yours? Can you post photos?


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Say while I am here, I heard that oak leaves have more N than horse pucks. Is that true? Then could they be used as a green in compost?


That is correct. Dry horse manure is .7% nitrogen while dry oak leaves are .8%.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

I didn't recall seeing Am1 mention that his horse pucks came completely dehydrated. 

My bad.

Perhaps Martin might share his graduated chart, showing the N ratio lost per percentage level of moisture residual, starting at 100% and reducing to zero, for both, horse pucks and oak leaves. 

Always nice to know when we're comparing dried apples vs. fresh off the tree.


----------



## Paquebot

There is no graduated chart as to what the time schedule is for loss of nitrogen in any fresh green matter. 

"1. The first change is the formation of ammonia in urine which is lost unless the manure is kept moist and compact.

2. Next the insoluble nitrogen contained in the solid parts of the excrement undergoes putrefactive changes with the formation of ammonia. 

3. The ammonia and other soluble compounds of nitrogen are used in considerable amounts as food for the bacteria in the manure and are stored in their bodily substance in insoluble form. 

4. Under certain conditions ammonia and nitrogen are decomposed with the formation of free nitrogen which escapes into the atmosphere and is thus lost forever."

Close enough? The author of that was composting before most here were even born. The above is from page 179 of _The Complete Book of Composting_, J. I. Rodale, copyright 1960, fourth printing 1967, 1,007 pages. "Percentages of Nitrogen, Phosphate, and Potash in Different Manures" chart is on page 180. "Nutrients in Leaves" chart is on page 945.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

That portion failed to mention the ammonia lost in the dehydration factor.

You offered of your own accord that we were dealing with completely dehydrated ("dry" was the word used) horse pucks, which, quite frankly aren't that common in the extreme composter's world. 

I was just hoping you might be able to shed a little more light on the N lost as the puck dried up.

Surely a wet puck has X amount of N at 100% moisture and X amount of N at 0% moisture (again, both extremes quite uncommon in any composter's world) and there is surely a graduated loss from one extreme to the other.
You're not able to offer specifics that might apply to what might more typically be encountered.... i.e., say, the N level in a horse puck containing 25% moisture, or an oak leaf containing 40% ?

Or are all horse pucks dehydrated to 0% moisture in your composting experience ?

You chose to reference an extreme where the original question was general, purely in effort, as per my previous experience, to stir the pot, which is quite typical of your knee-jerk, one-upmanship modus operandi.

I like to think of this thread as the Extreme Composter's version of Cheers.

If you want to belly up to this bar, we'll just refer to you as Cliff.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Hey, hey, hey. There is no need to be a braggart! :Bawling:
> 
> And as far as sorting out >1% trash, I say fair trade of carbon for labor. Well done sir.


Naw just talking about my good fortune. Hope it encourages others. I have looked for a few years to find some of this stuff, especially the horse stall cleanings. I found them just by taking a different route to see what is going on in my neck of the woods. Oh and the grinder tub is premixed compost so all I have to do is pile it up and water it. It is the same source for my finished compost. The only difference is turning and watering. 

I really must get some pictures to post.


----------



## Forerunner

am1too said:


> Naw just talking about my good fortune. Hope it encourages others. I have looked for a few years to find some of this stuff, especially the horse stall cleanings. I found them just by taking a different route to see what is going on in my neck of the woods. Oh and the grinder tub is premixed compost so all I have to do is pile it up and water it. It is the same source for my finished compost. The only difference is turning and watering.
> 
> I really must get some pictures to post.


Yes. You must. :indif:

.....and that goes for Cascade Failure, as well. :bored:


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I was wondering about using an A frame, mostly because of the possibility of making the thing more easily mobile. Do you move yours? Can you post photos?


Yeppers I can. Put it on the brushhog. I did not do a sturdy enough job to just drag it around. Next model will be an improvement. It is time to redo it anyway. I'll get some pic of thecurrent model.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> Naw just talking about my good fortune. Hope it encourages others. I have looked for a few years to find some of this stuff, especially the horse stall cleanings. I found them just by taking a different route to see what is going on in my neck of the woods. Oh and the grinder tub is premixed compost so all I have to do is pile it up and water it. It is the same source for my finished compost. The only difference is turning and watering.
> 
> I really must get some pictures to post.


Not to worry, I was joking and a little envious. At my home that I am moving from, I too can get unlimited, 99.9% clean, free mulch, just pull the truck up and a conveyer belt system loads it. Couldn't ask for anything better or easier, so all the beds around my house have very deep mulch. I never pick weeds, i just smother them in another foot of mulch. 

But where I am moving to, I have to work for all my chips, manure, dead animals, etc.


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## Forerunner

You coming up to the Great White North ? :bouncy:


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## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> You coming up to the Great White North ? :bouncy:


Heck NO! I'm going from Virginia to Florida.


----------



## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> That portion failed to mention the ammonia lost in the dehydration factor.
> 
> You offered of your own accord that we were dealing with completely dehydrated ("dry" was the word used) horse pucks, which, quite frankly aren't that common in the extreme composter's world.
> 
> I was just hoping you might be able to shed a little more light on the N lost as the puck dried up.
> 
> Surely a wet puck has X amount of N at 100% moisture and X amount of N at 0% moisture (again, both extremes quite uncommon in any composter's world) and there is surely a graduated loss from one extreme to the other.
> You're not able to offer specifics that might apply to what might more typically be encountered.... i.e., say, the N level in a horse puck containing 25% moisture, or an oak leaf containing 40% ?
> 
> Or are all horse pucks dehydrated to 0% moisture in your composting experience ?
> 
> You chose to reference an extreme where the original question was general, purely in effort, as per my previous experience, to stir the pot, which is quite typical of your knee-jerk, one-upmanship modus operandi.
> 
> I like to think of this thread as the Extreme Composter's version of Cheers.
> 
> If you want to belly up to this bar, we'll just refer to you as Cliff.


You fail to take one thing into consideration. Much of the liquid in manure is water and there are no nutrients in water. As manure dries, the nutrients are concentrated and the NPK percentage becomes higher, not lower. Thus dry manure holds more NPK per weight than fresh manure. Percentage of water is never considered in analysis of anything no matter if it's vitamins, calories, or nutrients. The percentage of nitrogen in horse manure does not peak until the manure dries. The percentage of nitrogen in an oak leaf also peaks when it dries. Both are due to reduction of water content which results in a concentration of nutrients. 

Your thread is very informational as to how to reach a certain goal but sometimes lacking in why it happens. Guessing an answer does nothing to advance that goal. Anytime it crosses over to giving false information, it then may give some cause to discredit other claims. I failed to note any post in which you stated any disclaimer that the information given may not be factual. I'm sorry to see that you are not any wiser because of my reply when it came indirectly from the recognized absolute master of composting. 

Martin


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## CesumPec

I found a Washington State Univ site that says horse hockey is 1 - 2% N. A Texas site said .5 - 2%. The issue with dry manure is not the water loss, but the ammonia loss. Ammonia (major N source and highly volatile until composted) from stall manure is obviously much higher than that scooped up in a sunny field. Depending on bedding type, e.g. wood shavings will greatly dilute the N by percentage dry weight. But some people don't use bedding, just sand or rubber mats. 

I think at least as important, and more so IMO, is the issue of the biota of manure vs oak leaves. Compost is about capturing the NPK and all the other ABCs and XYZs of trace elements. To make that happen you need lots of bacteria and fungi working for you. Ceteris paribus, manure is going to make potting soil way faster than oak leaves.


----------



## Paquebot

There is great misconception here as to what constitutes manure as well as how rich manure is. In manure, feces, there is pretty much a set percentage of nutrients as well as water. Much of the NPK value will remain stable and intact at the same ratio from fresh to dry. Comparing apples was mentioned and it's an excellent analogy. One dried apple will retain the same amount of nutrients as a fresh apple but the percentage by weight will be greater. Same with manures. Some may be as high as 50% moisture. If the dried percentage of nitrogen is 0.7 after 50% reduction due to moisture loss, then one could assume that it began at 0.35 when fresh. 

Again, a quote from Rodale: "Rotted manure is richer in plant nutrients. This is a result largely of the loss in dry weight of the manure. One ton of fresh manure may lose one-half its weight in the rotting process."

There's also a simple manner in which the moisture reduction takes place with no loss of nutrients. The decomposition process produces carbon dioxide and hydrogen which both escape into the atmosphere. That accounts for the reduction of as much as 50% of the original volume of manure with little or no loss of nutrients. Every ounce of lost inert matter concentrates those nutrients in the remaining material. 

Now, if one wants to include urine, which is NOT part of a mammal's manure, that's a different matter.

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

There isn't confusion as to what manure is, there is apparently confusion as to what is in the manure pile. If you want to put diapers on your horse to make sure you get the pure stuff, feel free. For composters, manure is what is in the manure pile, and that may or may not include cat and rat manures, bedding, sand, urine, spilled feed, horse hair, and i don't know what all else. But I fully understand that in most lab situations, that a scientist is going to be looking for unadulterated poo. However, the WSU site was specifically testing stall sweepings which contained various bedding materials.


----------



## Paquebot

Anything inert or high-carbon material added to a manure pile also reduces the percentage of NPK value. Horse manure is the easiest to obtain in almost pure state if they are free-stabled with access to cement paddock. I dumped the fall batch of compost in the tumbler today and began the winter batch. Part of what was added to the new one was 20 gallons of pure horse manure. Not one spear of straw, hay, sand, or wood chip. It was not dry or diluted since it was scooped off bare cement while fresh. It had been stored since August in 4 5-gallon pails with a plastic bag over each. No loss of anything to evaporation or leaching and was almost exactly in the same state as when packed. That was horse manure which still retained almost all of the moisture that was in it when it came from the horses. The only thing that I can not tell anyone about it is the NPK analysis. To do so, I would have to had weighed it and then determined the moisture content and formulate from the known NPK value of dry manure. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

We shouldn't confuse the issue by adding in PK to the original N question, or by long-winded splitting of hairs in directions not practical to the composter.

P and K do not evaporate off in the drying process.

Some nitrogen does, _in the form of unstable ammonia_, which Cesum touched upon.

There is a reason that fresh grass clippings, fresh horse manure and fresh oak leaves contain a higher total _amount_ of nitrogen than the same material that has laid in the sun for a few days or weeks to dry...... ammonia loss.

When Am1 mentioned horse pucks, I made the assumption that he was referring to piles of them, urine intact (their most common form to the composter). I also made the assumption that he was referring to oak leaves that had lain in the sun for a few days, with the noted exception of fresh chipped thrown in for a balance.

I maintain that horse pucks, in their most readily available form (horses have not read some of the entertaining misconceptions about composting toilets, and don't know the value *cough* of segregating their urine), contain more nitrogen than oak leaves in their most readily available form--fallen from the tree, partially dried, with the exception thrown in that freshly chipped oak leaves will make a fine nitrogen (and moisture) boost to the otherwise high-carbon content oak wood chips.

Further, Am1's original question addressed the issue of the suitability of either material for "greens" in a compost pile.
Greens are considered "greens" for more reasons than just nitrogen content.
As Censum also mentioned, manures, including horse pucks, have critical value to the compost pile, as activating "greens" largely due to their bacterial and enzyme content...... attributes largely lacking in dehydrated oak leaves.

And, the third most basic (and crucial) component of a "green" being moisture content, dried oak leaves yet again fail to cut muster.

As for Rodale's Complete....... my version notes that dried horse pucks can contain as high as 2.2% N, with oak leaves maintaining at a cheerful .8%.

Perhaps in the future we can avoid confusing the issues of hands-on composting particulars with those isolated extremes found in the lab.

_Practical application_.............

It's what _this_ thread is all about.


----------



## NEMarvin

There are farms where they do segregate the horse urine because the urine is captured and used to manufacture ***ahem*** ladies' estrogen products. Perhaps the urine-free horse puck lab is located at that same farm...


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## Forerunner

It is a funny, funny world, out there. :indif:


----------



## Paquebot

I was asked to produce a chart to show how much nitrogen is lost in manure and there is none. I did offer an explanation of how nitrogen is lost and that's as close as one can get without having any starting figures. 

There can be no set N or PK value assigned to any stable manures because of the variability in the non-manure elements. If they consist of straw, sawdust, wood chips, or sand, the NPK value will be lower than what the manure was. If it were uneaten hay, the NPK value would be higher. That is why one can not find any definite NPK value of any stable manures since they are not constant. (Rodale averages them at 0.5-0.3-0.5.) Few dried manures can be sold as fertilizers since there must be a minimum of 1% of N, P, or K. Next time you are at a garden center which sells various composted manures, check out the guaranteed NPK analysis. That will give you the best average for each.

Pooh-poohing the availability of pure manure is a slap in the face for many members of this forum who only pasture their horses. Determination and ingenuity have always been the driving force behind those with a homesteading frame of mind. If any have followed the gardening posts, their means of conveying the manure to the garden is often a bucket or wheelbarrow containing manure gathered from the pasture. That is why I may give two application rates with the smaller amount being pure manure and the greater being stable manure. 

And through it all, oak leaves remain at their cheery 0.8% nitrogen and a 6'x8' pile of nearly pure white oak plus water has been holding between 120Âº and 130Âº and cheerfully composting themselves for almost 2 weeks. It slipped to right at 120Âº after about 36 hours of below-freezing temperatures but back up to 130Âº this morning. The increase is not due to ambient temperature since that is currently 28Âº. The difference is due to a deer hide which is draped over it. That's just as effective as plastic and eventually will cook and also become compost.

Martin


----------



## Trisha in WA

I love that I can just scrape up all the crap from my cow stall, horse stall, rabbit barn, and chicken coop and throw it in a big pile and it turns to black gold and I don't have to have any college science degree!

Composting is SIMPLE. Why do people have to make it so technical. Crap rots and goes great on the garden. That's about all my simple mind needs to know.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Not to worry, I was joking and a little envious. At my home that I am moving from, I too can get unlimited, 99.9% clean, free mulch, just pull the truck up and a conveyer belt system loads it. Couldn't ask for anything better or easier, so all the beds around my house have very deep mulch. I never pick weeds, i just smother them in another foot of mulch.
> 
> But where I am moving to, I have to work for all my chips, manure, dead animals, etc.


I drag most all of my material 25 miles. Hey that is cheaper than doing it myself. Plus I would have to go get the mateials anyway. I load the finished compost and they load the offal.


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## am1too

In light of the lively discussion - I ask will the horse pucks and hay seperated from the sawdust compsot by themselves if I wet em down. The stall cleanings come with 95% or more sawdust. That would be way outta wack with any formula I have ever come accross. 

When grass clippings become available in the spring I have plenty browns to use.


----------



## Paquebot

Trisha in WA said:


> Composting is SIMPLE. Why do people have to make it so technical. Crap rots and goes great on the garden. That's about all my simple mind needs to know.


It is simple until someone comes along to make a technical claim which is incorrect. It reminds me of some relatives who were Jehovah Witness and had no place to worship. They went to church every Sunday in a Lutheran church since they felt being in one of God's houses were good enough. They were content to listen to the minister's sermons every Sunday as if he were one of them. That is, until a sermon was supposedly based on something from The Bible but was not. The family elder stood up and informed the minister that what he was saying was not from The Bible. The minister looked and admitted that he had been mistaken. Both had greater respect for each other from then on.

Martin


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## CesumPec

I forgot that the only kind of manure that you never want to compost is the BS that comes from a troll.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> In light of the lively discussion - I ask will the horse pucks and hay seperated from the sawdust compsot by themselves if I wet em down. The stall cleanings come with 95% or more sawdust. That would be way outta wack with any formula I have ever come accross.


Hay by itself may be 2.5% or higher. A 5% mix of that and horse manure with 95% sawdust is seemingly tilted way too high carbon. Since as low as 0.8% percent nitrogen is enough to produce hot composting, that would be considered equivalent to 15% green and 85% carbon. Even if the sawdust were not soaked with urine, that would still bring the C:N ratio more in line at 85:15. Reduce that down numerically and you have 17:3 and that indeed will compost. Thus there is no need to separate the materials in order to compost them.

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> I drag most all of my material 25 miles. Hey that is cheaper than doing it myself. Plus I would have to go get the mateials anyway. I load the finished compost and they load the offal.


I have an unlimited supply of sludge, well, limited only if everyone in the Daytona area stops pooping in the toilet. The sludge is the crumbly dried remains from the county sewer. Unfortunately, that round trip is about 3 hours and $55 in diesel away. I keep trying to figure out how to justify the costs of an old dump truck. I make the drive once a week anyway and could come back with 15 tons of almost-dirt. 

But until i can find a more direct income producing opportunity for a dumper, I'll just have to keep dreaming and collecting more local offal. Or maybe a super cheap 10 ton dump trailer will come on CL.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> In light of the lively discussion - I ask will the horse pucks and hay seperated from the sawdust compsot by themselves if I wet em down. The stall cleanings come with 95% or more sawdust. That would be way outta wack with any formula I have ever come accross.
> 
> When grass clippings become available in the spring I have plenty browns to use.


It depends on what time scale you are interested in. Given enough time, all plants and animal material will decompose. Heck, if you have lots of time, say a few eons and epochs to work with and lots of pressure, you can turn that stuff into petroleum or diamonds. But when I was a kid, a neighbor put up an 8' fence in a ~25 circle and filled it with fall leaves. it became something of a monument to the neighborhood kids. It was still full several years later, I presume due to the lack of N and bacteria.

I'm not very scientific about my piles. I put in what ever clean feedstock I can get my hands on. If it isn't reducing fast enough, I add roadkill, never had a need to add water. I don't turn the piles except to lift carbonaceous material to cover any stinky or slimy parts. If I had less space, I might not be willing to wait a year and would be more diligent about balancing the C:N


----------



## Forerunner

I don't mind composting troll pucks.

I just wish the troll would compost.

I bet it'd grow great taters.


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> I don't mind composting troll pucks.
> 
> I just wish the troll would compost.
> 
> I bet it'd grow great taters.



Now now boys, play nice :thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

:trollface





















:


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I forgot that the only kind of manure that you never want to compost is the BS that comes from a troll.


 Sure glad I didn't have a mouth full of hot coffee.


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> I forgot that the only kind of manure that you never want to compost is the BS that comes from a troll.


Actually, you aware that manure from bulls and steers is richer than from cows? If you didn't know before, you know now!

Martin


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Hay by itself may be 2.5% or higher. A 5% mix of that and horse manure with 95% sawdust is seemingly tilted way too high carbon. Since as low as 0.8% percent nitrogen is enough to produce hot composting, that would be considered equivalent to 15% green and 85% carbon. Even if the sawdust were not soaked with urine, that would still bring the C:N ratio more in line at 85:15. Reduce that down numerically and you have 17:3 and that indeed will compost. Thus there is no need to separate the materials in order to compost them.
> 
> Martin


Well that is interesting. I would wager the mositure content of any deposited urine has departed in week old cleanings that are out in the sun.

I do seperate the material for use as chicken bedding and possible use for hugelkultur. It also sorts out the wrenches and tractor pins.

I have noted that the pile that existed prior to a wild fire had not composted any. That pile was 6 months old or older. But of course they never added any water which is also necessary for dry material to compost.

I might be interested in removing some of the saw dust to get things in better balance.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I have an unlimited supply of sludge, well, limited only if everyone in the Daytona area stops pooping in the toilet. The sludge is the crumbly dried remains from the county sewer. Unfortunately, that round trip is about 3 hours and $55 in diesel away. I keep trying to figure out how to justify the costs of an old dump truck. I make the drive once a week anyway and could come back with 15 tons of almost-dirt.
> 
> But until i can find a more direct income producing opportunity for a dumper, I'll just have to keep dreaming and collecting more local offal. Or maybe a super cheap 10 ton dump trailer will come on CL.


hear, hear. I have the same concerns. I still wish for a dump truck. If I had one and the money to run it I would have 50,000 yards of tub grinder offal stacked up.


----------



## silverseeds

I would never bother to have "pure" manure unless my source just naturally came that way of course. Lots of carbon in many bedding materials, which although it doesnt add to fertility itself it adds many other great benefits to a soil. I actually seek out additional carbon sources for my soil.


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Actually, you aware that manure from bulls and steers is richer than from cows? If you didn't know before, you know now!
> 
> Martin


problem is bulls and steers aren't ususally stabled. So then the problem is determining bull an steer piles from cow piles. Need instruction.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Well that is interesting. I would wager the mositure content of any deposited urine has departed in week old cleanings that are out in the sun.
> 
> I do seperate the material for use as chicken bedding and possible use for hugelkultur. It also sorts out the wrenches and tractor pins.
> 
> I have noted that the pile that existed prior to a wild fire had not composted any. That pile was 6 months old or older. But of course they never added any water which is also necessary for dry material to compost.
> 
> I might be interested in removing some of the saw dust to get things in better balance.


The water portion will have left as carbon dioxide and hydrogen but much of the nitrogen will have been fixed via the nitrogen cycle process. Cellulose is also a good absorbant and will retain much of what it takes in. If there is the slightest smell of urea in the sawdust, it's there. The only thing that your mix would require to activate the decomposition process would be water.

Martin


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> problem is bulls and steers aren't ususally stabled. So then the problem is determining bull an steer piles from cow piles. Need instruction.


Very simple example would be feed lot steers vs. feed lot cows. No problem then to determine which is which. Same if in stanchions during the non-pasture months. When mixed, the resultant difference from one to the other would be in direct proportion to the percentage of each in the herd.

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> The water portion will have left as carbon dioxide and hydrogen but much of the nitrogen will have been fixed via the nitrogen cycle process. Cellulose is also a good absorbant and will retain much of what it takes in. If there is the slightest smell of urea in the sawdust, it's there. The only thing that your mix would require to activate the decomposition process would be water.
> 
> Martin


If you smell ammonia, you are smelling what you have lost. Agreed that off gassing of ammonia is stopped...err...reduced by carbon and that is why we pile and compost manure ASAP.


----------



## Forerunner

ETA, On advice and concern expressed by several friends in PMs, I will allow the record to speak for itself.


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Very simple example would be feed lot steers vs. feed lot cows. No problem then to determine which is which. Same if in stanchions during the non-pasture months. When mixed, the resultant difference from one to the other would be in direct proportion to the percentage of each in the herd.
> 
> Martin


I hauled plenty meat as a truck driver and all I can say is thank God there are no feed lots within reasonable distance. I do not know of any one currently raising animal is pens as we called them in my childhood. A steer was raised in a 30'x40' or so size pen and the pig was on concrete. No one on an acrage I know of does this even in winter. I live in ths south where it is not necessary to stable animals for the winter.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> I hauled plenty meat as a truck driver and all I can say is thank God there are no feed lots within reasonable distance. I do not know of any one currently raising animal is pens as we called them in my childhood. A steer was raised in a 30'x40' or so size pen and the pig was on concrete. No one on an acrage I know of does this even in winter. I live in ths south where it is not necessary to stable animals for the winter.


I am within 10 miles of a manure source which, if I could get it, would be pretty much guaranteed to be stabled bull manure. Not steer, since they would be a bit out of place. That's ABS Global in DeForest, WI.

Martin


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> If you smell ammonia, you are smelling what you have lost. Agreed that off gassing of ammonia is stopped...err...reduced by carbon and that is why we pile and compost manure ASAP.


Even after a certain portion of the free ammonia has escaped, the dry portion remains. All one needs to know is that if it were there in the form of urea, the fixed portion of the nitrogen will remain as nitrites until later converted into nitrates by bacterial action. Plants then can use it in nitrate form.

Martin


----------



## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> I don't mind composting troll pucks.
> 
> I just wish the troll would compost.
> 
> I bet it'd grow great taters.


A decomposed human body, or that of any other animal, would NOT grow great potatoes. The required NPK ratio would be entirely reversed. There would be an overabundance of nitrogen, excellent amount of phosphorus, and severe shortage of potassium.

Martin


----------



## Mickey

Paquebot said:


> A decomposed human body, or that of any other animal, would NOT grow great potatoes. The required NPK ratio would be entirely reversed. There would be an overabundance of nitrogen, excellent amount of phosphorus, and severe shortage of potassium.
> 
> Martin



:hysterical: That's funny Martin ound:


----------



## partndn

:umno:


:walk:


----------



## am1too

Must be winter.


----------



## Mickey

am1too said:


> Must be winter.


I guess so when folks can't recognize a joke when it's right in front of them.

C'mon gang, lighten up and let's have a :grouphug: :kiss:


----------



## Paquebot

There is one loose end which apparently wasn't sufficiently covered and that was the nitrification of manure from start to finish. I was asked to supply a chart of figures but my explanation wasn't accepted. Since the starting point can be so variable due to diet and foreign or inert matter, there can be no definite starting point at a certain number. Hence no chart exists. However, the information does exist as to percentage of nitrogen in various studies from coast-to-coast with municipal garbage. The studies involved testing at the onset and then at 3, 6, 8, and 10 weeks. Temperature was maintained at 30ÂºC throughout.

Example, Arizona test with a starting nitrogen percentage of 0.83. At week 3, 0.26. At 6 weeks, 0.41. At 8 weeks, 2.00. After 10 weeks, 4.02 or almost 5 times what it was when it started. The lower figure at week 3 is due to escape of free ammonia. From then until the 10th week, only the water was escaping in the form of carbon dioxide and hydrogen which caused a loss of volume and the subsequent increase of the nitrogen percentage. And that is how it works!

Martin


----------



## am1too

Mickey said:


> I guess so when folks can't recognize a joke when it's right in front of them.
> 
> C'mon gang, lighten up and let's have a :grouphug: :kiss:


Beleive me, when I say I was having a great belly roll laugh. I am still giggling and very glad I didn't have a mouth full of hot coffee.


----------



## Mizz_Patty

What an outstanding thread!! Thank you so much, Forerunner, for opening your firefighter's hose of practical information and actual experiences. And further thanks to all who have contributed with comments based on their experience. I do appreciate all this very much.


----------



## Forerunner

Thank YOU, Mizz Patty. 

It has been fun to share.


----------



## Mizz_Patty

Cynical, eh? hehe I am often accused of same. I am dead serious about my appreciation. I contrast with BS imparted on a string of occasions from a (recent, former) acquaintance who was convinced I knew too little to be taken seriously and that she knew everything. She was full of crap, like I suspected, and that you demonstrate in large type for us slower seniors to appreciate. Thank you again.


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, the cynical sentiment was certainly not aimed at your post. 

But, if you enjoyed it for it's worth, otherwise, all the merrier. :thumb:

Back to topic...... I assume you _do_ have a compost pile......? :huh:


----------



## gimpyrancher

Paquebot said:


> A decomposed human body, or that of any other animal, would NOT grow great potatoes.Martin


However, according to the loggers on TV, a dead body is a great thing to add to the rootball hole of a fallen tree before uprighting it. :teehee:


----------



## Forerunner

:thumb:


Now there's a bold fellow.


----------



## Centralilrookie

A long time ago I worked with a guy that had a tree spade. We picked up all the road kill we could. Put the carcasses in the freezer in his barn. Guess what the trees got that we moved? Sure made a difference. I seem to remember a story about the Indians and fish......


----------



## haley1

Paquebot said:


> A decomposed human body, or that of any other animal, would NOT grow great potatoes. The required NPK ratio would be entirely reversed. There would be an overabundance of nitrogen, excellent amount of phosphorus, and severe shortage of potassium.
> 
> Martin


All these years the mob could have been growing great gardens instead of planting cement shoes:buds:


----------



## Forerunner

It's been a while...... so, for those who live vicariously or otherwise need a good photo fix, brace yourselves. 










For those who pay attention, yes, I have upgraded from a 550 to an 850. What fun!!
Here is the little feller, last year.......










.......and the animal, this fall......









Forgive the still shot. My photographer was visiting family when I was spreading the mega piles up in the wheat field last September....

Just today, we took a wild notion and hooked up the bone grinder, again.










Try not to be jealous.




























......and, just for kicks, the frolicking child in the rye patch (west garden in the winter)
Note the compost pile being built over the winter and the handful of renegade chickens enjoying some winter greenery.










The kid's a natural.


----------



## CesumPec

WOW! In that first photo, I see chips and dirt. Anything else in that pile and where did you get the material?

I've been working hard to find a supplier for municipal sludge. If I lived within 20 miles of Daytona, I could have an unlimited supply delivered for free. Unfortunately, at least in this one instance, I'm well outside that range. They will deliver for $200 / 25 tons. If one truck load would fix my problem, I would pay the price. But I need dozens of trucks worth. Have been on the phone calling every closer municipality i can find on the map, but so far no luck. Most of them use it for landfill cover or sell it to fertilizer manufacturers.


----------



## Forerunner

Chips, dirt, (the "dirt" is likely just somewhat finished compost or finer materials.....I mix very little dirt with my working piles) a few cow carcasses, etc. a bunch of sale barn manure, sawdust, some municipal leaves and grass clipping, and, who knows, I may have communed with that pile on more than one occasion. :shrug:

No sale barns, feedlots or horse farms in your area to pull some high N material from ?
Fisheries ? Road kill ?

There's gotta be sum'thin'.


----------



## Studhauler

I finally found a source for manure. I got one pick-up load this winter to jump start a dead pile. He even loaded it with the smallest, oldest bobcat I ever saw, we even had to fix it mid-load. Still faster that shoveling frozen poo. Next spring I think he will let me have the rest of the pile, about 10 pick-up loads, Then I am guessing about 2 loads a year from his little hobby farm.


----------



## CesumPec

OK, I misinterpreted the photo. Looks like you have more patience than me. I usually spread before my piles get that far along. 

Yes, I am gathering N from roadkills, manure, etc. But I have yet to develop any good regular, high volume sources, in part because I'm not a reliable collector. Until I am on the farm full time, some folks won't save me material because I might be a week or a month before pickup. 

I don't mind waiting on my chip piles to do their thing, but my urgent need is finished product. I have 5 acres of bare sand that was pine plantation 4 months ago. I have logged, cleared stumps, root raked, and am still burning slash and stumps. I have 5 piles of debris left to burn but since they take about 10 days, I have to wait till early Jan to fire them due to travel conflicts. 

After that last burn, I still need to spread char, smooth the soil with a disk, and add more organic matter. I want my wife's horse on this pasture in 10 months, so I can't wait on my compost piles. that's why I was trying to bring in sludge now. If I can get enough, I can just have them dump randomly in the field and while i am disking anyway, cut it into the soil in one process. 

I'll sow rye grass seed because it will sprout and grow most winters and the natural bahia will also come back after 30 days. I also plan to sow perennial peanut sets. Peanut is our preferred local legume used where you would plant clover. 

BTW - tell me about that bone crusher. Do all those bones come out of your piles?


----------



## Forerunner

That's precious, Stud-H, ya'll getting to work on the little skidsteer, mid-load. 

Brings to mind some of my excuse for upgrading dozers.....

Now, mind you, the little guy was doin' the job, just fine, and I used the Deere 4630 and 5 yard scraper pan extensively, besides....... but this project was the largest I've ever undertaken, "professionally", or otherwise, and I put in nearly a year, clearing and earthmoving, before I called my used Case equipment buddy and begged for an 850G. 

Here is the current pile, being built on the south end of the dam.
I already spread the first pile, and seeded to rye, some months ago.










Here's a better shot of the current seeding on the back side of the dam, with another perspective on the growing pile.










The spillway........ it ain't done, but I don't see it washing out any time soon.










A shot toward the bottom of the spillway. Note the six inch, working pipe, half buried in the grass......










A view from the top....looking east. That water is already 16 feet deep, over a hundred yards long, and 40-45 yards wide.










Another shot, at current water level, still looking east.


----------



## Forerunner

I like peanuts for a legume. 

They go great, roasted and salted, come winter, too. ......and my cows LOVE the dead foliage after curing. :shrug:

Those bones do come out of our compost piles.
I spread the piles in the fields, with the dozer, these days, and then work everything in with a disc, and then a harrow. That harrow brings up ALL the trash. 

The kids love it. They get everything just about clean-picked and then I harrow again. 

The bones are just one of the commodities that come from the piles.
Rocks, sticks, metal, plastic from the municipal stuff. You just never know what's gunna turn up next. 

We dry the bones for a few months and then turn 'em all to powder.
Chickens like some....gardens and fruit trees take quite a bit. Some gets spread on the fields.


----------



## Studhauler

Looks great, it has come along way since I last saw extreme hydro. Glad to see it is holding water.

Do you have a pipe in the bottom for an outlet? The 6 " pipe, how far from the top and bottom is that?


----------



## Awnry Abe

I am inspired, FR. Just curious, how much time does it take to amass that mass? Can a guy with a 9-5 and countless other farm responsibilities get it done?


----------



## Forerunner

Back to our regularly scheduled program. :grin:

The Project:

Here is a shot from the east. looking toward the massive dam, which towers fifty feet above the bottom of the hole I dug. 










Here's the inner side of the overflow. Note the pipe below the erosion control....










Here's from the north end, top of the dam, looking south.










.....and another, from about halfway across the dam..... a little closer to that growing pile, cuz yuh know, it's all about the pile.....











.....and, just to keep things in perspective, the winter warming piles are tucked nicely into the Durable Compost Bins, at the house, too.











As the water wheel and accompanying wheel house are built, further pics will be forthcoming. :bouncy:


----------



## Forerunner

My working pipe is run about mid-height, through the dam. I have 16 feet of water, now.....and about 8-10 feet to go before it gets to the working pipe.

ETA.....Stud-H....there is no bottom drain pipe. It wouldn't have anywhere to go, anyhow. I dug all the dirt for the dam, right out of the hole, cuz I didn't want to mess up the topography, topside, and I like a deep hole fer fishin'.  The dam is about 35 feet, like I said, the hole is fifty, so were in a good 15 feet..... :end edit:

It has been a slow....but steady, fill, save for the "hurricane" rain back late August, which brought the water up an immediate 8 feet with a four inch rain. When this drought is over, there will be water, aplenty.

CrownRanch...... it's all about the resolve. Of course, proper tooling is a plus.
A pickup load a day is about how I started, and that loaded with a pitchfork and scoop shovel. :thumb:
You'd be amazed how fast that pile will grow with just a truckload a day.
One a _week_ would get you there faster than you might expect, starting out from scratch and all.


----------



## CesumPec

Our perennial peanut has no nuts. I don't know why it is called peanut. It is high protein forage and I have seen it used recently as a ground cover because it is drought tolerant and produces pretty little yellow flowers. It is a mostly tropical plant, from Brazil, so won't grow much beyond the GA/FL border. 

What about the bone crusher. WHo makes it, how does it work?

Love your dam. It appears you are working dam hard, lugging a bunch of dam rock. I wish my sand would hold water so I could build a decent pond.


----------



## Forerunner

Peanuts without peanuts. :huh:

That's be like dating without a girl, almost!

I gotta have my winter peanuts.

My bone crusher is manufactured by (hold on to your femur) Bearcat, the feedmill folks.  Bearcat just happens to make the heaviest duty (or one of 'em, so I am told) feed grinder/hammermill, and I picked up this gem for 60 bucks from some fellow who inherited it in another deal and just didn't want it. :shrug:
I cut off all the frills and it makes even the ball bat sized cow leg bones go *poof* without even a murmur.

(well, yeah, the bone murmurs, some, but the grinder doesn't care :shrug: )

Yeah, the mill pond has been a dream for over half my life, now. 
We'll see if the world lasts long enough for me to see complete fruition.
If not, I had a lot of fun building it, anyway.


----------



## am1too

Windy in Kansas said:


> Rather than making large piles have you considered scattering the material onto fields and simply sheet composting? That should work when there is no growing crop on the land.
> 
> No matter which method one uses I'll bet your soil is teeming with worms and the soil has become dark, rich, and deep with great tilth.
> 
> Way to go!


The only thing that does not appeal to me about sheet composting it the heat. I would likew a good hot pile to kill weed seeds. The bigger piles do this.


----------



## Forerunner

The heat in a larger, lasting pile is one benefit, and, as a result of that heat, and _time_.....the finished product is a far higher quality amendment to the soil.

That said, I've pulled a CesumP on occasion, and lost patience to go ahead and spread a half-baked pile for some silly reason or another. :grin:

Either way, a year later, you'll be growing stuff a lot greener than yuh wuz to begin with. :shrug:


----------



## Forerunner

Then there's the field.

I have it planted to winter wheat and, interestingly enough, though the drought here continues to worsen as per evidenced by the levels of my other four ponds and multiple neighbors with well issues....... there has been just enough surface rain, about a quarter inch every ten days, give or take, to germinate and thrive the wheat.

Here is a shot taken from the site of what must be one of the largest overflows of N-rich sale barn offal that two wet winters could produce. It was a disaster, sort of.
I have two ponds that take all of the runoff from this area, one of which has become a basic lagoon, catching and stabilizing the runoff before allowing it to flow to the second pond. Incidentally, that little lagoon is bone dry right now.......
The second is the bigger that I had tested, just for kicks, and came up with six strains of benign, but otherwise compost tea-loving bacteria.

Anyhow, it all leveled out very nicely, and there was enough material in that huge pile and several others, all far better balanced, to change the topography of this field to create a six foot backbone, of sorts, 100 yards long, greatly enhancing drainage.










Here we are, at the top of the hill. If the entire field is ten acres, I'm doin' pretty good.
I started with less than one acre that was flat or clean enough to "farm".
The patch in this shot is the site of the largest pile I've constructed, to date.
Studhauler got to see that pile during his visit here. We hiked up the hill one bleak winter evening, while that pile was under construction.....
The drought made it much simpler to spread and incorporate, and the ground has worked down, with about a foot of new material in places, just phenomenally. The wheat in all these pics was planted in early November. Weather has been very good to us, since, for raising baby wheats.










Here's a shot from the middle of where that gargantuan pile sat, looking toward the highest point, a sand hill, on the property. That hill grows some awesome watermelons, and gave us a splendid drought-proof crop of tomatoes and peppers, this year......and I can't wait to try it with the most recent nutrient addition.
The white specks are residual gypsum (sulfur and calcium) board that was accumulated, weathered by time and moisture in piles, and then spread and incorporated.
These pics were taken 2-3 weeks ago, and we've had moisture and time enough that the field is a lovely full shade of emerald, right now.










A bit of a scenic overview, looking south/south-west.










Then there is the rye patch, seeded by hand out of a five gallon bucket in mid-September.....maybe two thirds of an acre, give or take.
This patch is located on the site of the longest standing compost overflow area.
Many piles have come and gone, and many piles were just spread, further west each year, as the concrete, dirt and brick/gravel fill keeps accumulating.
The whole thing started as the dam to the second pond I built here, and the fill and compost additions have made the whole thing over an acre of tillable ground, perhaps someday destined to become an orchard. 
For drought conditions, the rye is happy.










Incidentally, lush fall/winter rye makes excellent forage for a family milk cow.
When we took her off the unimproved drought pasture and dry hay feed to put her on this patch, a couple months ago, her milk and cream production more than doubled and has stabilized at that delightful level.










.......and, she's not camera shy. She loves her paparazzi.










Here's another shot of the area, for perspective. The pond is directly in the background.










.......and another, showing the west edge (far left) where the fill operation is ongoing.
Part of the reason that this becomes an overflow for composting is that it is graveled on roughly two and a half sides and can be accessed to dump, one way or another from those angles, in any weather.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> The Project:
> 
> Here is a shot from the east. looking toward the massive dam, which towers fifty feet above the bottom of the hole I dug.


Forerunner, this is just sad. How dare you take a photo of the grand canyon and Colorado river and claim it as your own work. Tsk Tsk :nono:


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> My bone crusher is manufactured by (hold on to your femur) Bearcat, the feedmill folks.


Quite a deal you got. I've been looking for a used hammermill for a year. Went to the local auction again today and still nothing. I think they are more common in the midwest for some reason because anytime i see them listed on websites, they are the former northwest territory or great plains states.

Oh yeah - love the cow and very impressive what you've done with the rocks to rye conversion.


----------



## Forerunner

The ledge to the right of the Grand Little Canyon will be ten feet above the water, give or take. The boys are looking forward to some lightweight skydiving. 

Here is another shot of the Canyon, from a little more north of the hole.










Notice the weedy sand and gravel "vein" to the left. 
That is the original "creek" bed. It used to flow regular enough, generally kind of slowing to a seep with a few puddles come each August.

That will give you some idea how deep I dug.....as that water is already 15-16 feet deep. It took me a few hours of pushing.


----------



## jd4020

Love your cow. I like what you have going on with the dam; how long have you been working on it? (sorry if I missed the post that might have said when you started this) We also have a small stream that usually dries up around August and have kicked around the idea of putting a pond in the middle of it. There would be several possible spots. The problem we see is the run off of farm chemicals. Are you saying you have several ponds that feed into each other and sort of "strain off" any chemicals?
And how are you incorporating the water wheel? Oh my, so many wonderful ideas happening. Thank you so much for sharing.  Great pictures. 
Dh got a Bobcat a few years ago. First thing he did was haul up some "small, dainty" field rocks for the front yard and then some more for the goldfish pond in the garden.  








He used the BC to dig the goldfish pond. Not on the scale as your pond, but after all, it is in the garden.  Makes cleaning out the barn go a lot quicker as well.


















My golden eyed cat, Cheese Whiz. She always found me what ever I was doing in the garden (or anything outside) She had the most amazing purr along with her golden eyes. Sadly she died a couple of weeks ago, she was about 14. Now she rests in the garden.

God bless,
jd


----------



## Forerunner

I bought the new ground in late 2010, and started clearing for the project shortly thereafter. One aspect of the project that took some time was reclamation of goods discovered.  I found both, several veins of sand and gravel and several veins of phenomenally rich, dark, loamy earth and some of that below several feet of clay :huh: ).....and carted out dozens of my heavy dump wagon's worth of both, to be used and stockpiled for later. I still have some of that to do, downstream, where the wheelhouse will be built. 

Waste not, want not, I always say. 

I understand your husband's enthusiasm with the Bobcat, JD. 
I bought my original land when I was 22, and, with the help of the brother-in-law of the lady who sold it to me (both are related to my ancestry and looooong time friends of the family.....the old man had given up hope on energetic youth with vision until he stumbled across my towheadedness one fine day.....and he was a help, let me tell yuh!) 
I purchased my first backhoe just weeks later. It was a fine, Case, 1974 model with a cab and extendable dipper......it was also in desperate need of a valve job, which it got pretty quick. 
I was a kid in kid heaven for some time after that.
First real project I undertook was the building of a pond. :whistlin:

As for the runoff logistics...... the first four ponds I built are subject to zero ag chemical runoff, and the big one here takes 95% of it's water from the timber. There are fields way up to the east that barely run into it, but most of the runoff from them go south and further northwest than the series of ravines that feed down here.
I don't take my blessed water configuration for granted......

We have so many cats right now, I wouldn't know if one came up missing.
Lily prolly would, though...... she keeps close tabs on her kitties.

"Incorporating the water wheel" will be somewhat of an engineering project.

I wish some of me good mates who have contributed to this thread could be here to brainstorm. I've got a pretty good idea where I need to go with it, but words would just confuse the issue at this point.

There'll be pics accompanying further progress.


----------



## CesumPec

is that water wheel merely decorative or running a genset, I hope? A pond that big could probably generate most all of your electric power needs.


----------



## Forerunner

What, you expect me to do something _practical_ ?!! :indif:



Of all the nerve ! :bored:


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> What, you expect me to do something _practical_ ?!! :indif:
> 
> 
> 
> Of all the nerve ! :bored:


i think that it is only right that you name your latest dam, Hoover.


----------



## Forerunner

Get out of town!!

That's just what my Pop says whenever he brings another one of his old feller buddies down to see it. :indif:

I have plans for some electric, but I'm intending to go with a bigger wheel and some mechanical power, maybe small line shaft.


Let me know when you've got a weekend free and we'll break ground for the wheel house.


----------



## ChristieAcres

This is a great thread, Forerunner, and it gets more interesting all the time!

We did a lot of crabbing this year, and the result are lots of shells (!!!). We let the chickens at them, first, but now have accumulated a nice pile. What does our resident expert suggest?


----------



## Forerunner

Good to hear from you, Lori. 

I envy your crab bounty. Yum.

Hmmm....

I believe I'd dry them shells and grind them just for the chickens, allowing them free access to the stuff in a separate feeder.......unless I had hundreds of pounds, or more, in which case I'd compost 'em.
The microbes might express a little initial dissatisfaction with a carbon/protein based fodder like that, but it couldn't be any worse than chewing on an old toe nail. They'd get over it. 



Just out of curiosity....how many shells _is_ "lots" ? :huh:


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> Good to hear from you, Lori.
> 
> *Thank ye for responding so promptly!*
> 
> I envy your crab bounty. Yum.
> *
> Yes, we worked pretty hard, as the pics show just "some" of the bounty..."*
> 
> Hmmm....
> 
> I believe I'd dry them shells and grind them just for the chickens, allowing them free access to the stuff in a separate feeder.......unless I had hundreds of pounds, or more, in which case I'd compost 'em.
> The microbes might express a little initial dissatisfaction with a carbon/protein based fodder like that, but it couldn't be any worse than chewing on an old toe nail. They'd get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity....how many shells _is_ "lots" ? :huh:


Since we started collecting just since early Crabbing and most of Winter Crabbing, we are up to having 100s of crab shells. This Winter we did great! The catch limit is 5 Dungeness Crab, and 6 Red Rock Crab per day for each License. We are both licensed... I did post these pics elsewhere, but since this is on topic...


















This is just three days worth... We have a lot frozen in whole milk, which works well, but I didn't want any more frozen, so I began canning it. It won the taste test hands down!


----------



## CesumPec

FR - I envy your pond and your future water power. When looking for land I thought long and hard about something in the mountains of TN just because I wanted to do something similar. In the end, the lower taxes and greater warmth of FL won out. 

Lori - I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay and for me, nothing beats a Chesapeake Bay Blue Crab. But I'm still highly impressed with your crab supply. Without FR's hammermill, not sure how you'll grind up those crab shells in quantity, but I would happily add them to my compost pile. Did your shell pile send up a big stink? When the crab packing plant back in VA was working and the wind came from the wrong direction, the whole city reeked of rotten crab.


----------



## Forerunner

Rotten crab...... :buds:


That makes my mouth water, on behalf of my microbes, of course, just letting those two words ooze off me lips. 


Lori, I'm more jealous than CP.....I don't care what he says.


Do you have a picture of the shell pile ?
Dried out a bit, they'd crack up to chicken grit with a sledge hammer and a concrete pad, no ?

Of course, if there's residual rotten crab....those chickens might enjoy free access to the pile. :teehee:


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner, it is good to see those mountains piles of compost tilled under and green fields in their place. The cow looks happier in the field than she did in the pen when I was there, and she is rewarding you for her freedom and you compost efforts.


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah, every time I walk out there to enjoy the green serenity she runs up to me like a puppy and tries to knock me down. :indif:

That's gratitude, for yuh. :smack:

What month did you come see me in.....and at what point was Hoover when you saw her ?


----------



## ChristieAcres

CesumPec said:


> FR -
> 
> Lori - I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay and for me, nothing beats a Chesapeake Bay Blue Crab. But I'm still highly impressed with your crab supply. Without FR's hammermill, not sure how you'll grind up those crab shells in quantity, but I would happily add them to my compost pile. Did your shell pile send up a big stink? When the crab packing plant back in VA was working and the wind came from the wrong direction, the whole city reeked of rotten crab.


Nice! There are actually a lot of folks here who don't go crabbing (???). DH had a friend who paid for most of the fuel, so he could go. That sure cut down our expense! I don't know how we will grind up the shells, will have to give that some thought. 

No rotten Crab smell. We cook the crabs whole, then clean, and shell them. A portion of shells are given to our chickens, who clean them thoroughly. The rest are either in the extra fridge or frozen, to be fed to the chickens later. Our outdoor hunting cats, sweet as they are, LOVE getting crab shells, even eat the shells!


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> Rotten crab...... :buds:
> 
> _*I don't think that would be very pleasant, so purposely limited how much was given to the chickens each time. I took all the Venison out of the freezer and canned it, so we had room... Right now, there are a lot of crab shells in there, along with the meats we keep frozen.*_
> 
> That makes my mouth water, on behalf of my microbes, of course, just letting those two words ooze off me lips.
> 
> _*Oh, we know of your composting passion, lol. Without such, this wonderful thread would lack momentum.*_
> 
> Lori, I'm more jealous than CP.....I don't care what he says.
> 
> _*I am jealous of your equipment...*_
> 
> Do you have a picture of the shell pile ?
> 
> _*No, and it is currently SNOWING, the first snow of the year! DH was also tossing shells, after the critters cleaned them, into our compost pile.
> 
> *_ Dried out a bit, they'd crack up to chicken grit with a sledge hammer and a concrete pad, no ?
> 
> _*Dry, I could put on hiking shoes and stomp them, I guess. They become very brittle.*_
> 
> Of course, if there's residual rotten crab....those chickens might enjoy free access to the pile. :teehee:


They get the shells and all the "cleanings," and spoiled is an understatement. It was my idea to freeze a bunch for them, also more efficient for the freezer, since I cleared out all that space.

Here is one of the biggest crabs:









*Legal is 6.5" and this guy is 10"! He must have been quite a fighter, as he still had his claws.*


----------



## Paquebot

Crab or lobster shells don't have to be broken up if composted. Like bones, they have only evolved to resist attack from outside, not from within. They will break down during the heat cycle as long as there is sufficient nitrogen with them. In the soil, they'll vanish within a few months in acidic soils. Steamer clam shells begin the process during composting but take 2 years to break down in the same type of soil.

Martin


----------



## ChristieAcres

Good to know, Martin!

The pic below, just shows a few of our chickens. They aren't impressed the crab shells are frozen... It isn't that cold, around 34F, should warm up a bit today.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> Rotten crab...... :buds:
> Lori, I'm more jealous than CP.....I don't care what he says.


hey, Hey, HEY!!! Look Bub, you might be able to make a bigger pile of decay than me, but I can out envy you any day. :duel:

On a better note, the power line clearing crew came through yesterday and today. Trimmed my trees for me and gave me the entire neighborhood's chips. :goodjob: there is lots of green in the chip piles so I probably can just let them sit as is.


----------



## Forerunner

......and a little communing, when no one is looking.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> ......and a little communing, when no one is looking.


as there are no more formal facilities on my farm as of yet, I can assure you I frequently add the number 1 and number 2 most beneficial and free composting materials.


----------



## Studhauler

I was there is January, you had cut back the bank on the far side to find solid ground and had started pushing up dirt. The near side you hadn't done anything with yet. It looks more like garrison Dam to me.










An earthen dam with a road across it.

If you are going to go extreme&#8230;










This is Phelps Mill in Otter Tail County, Minnesota. I don&#8217;t know how to do a link, so here it is the hard way.
http://www.co.otter-tail.mn.us/phelpsmill/

Here is the wheel for the mill. The lumber for the water chute has long disappeared. I believe it used to have two wheels, one for the brick part and one for the stick built.










One more image just for fun. I bet you wish you had this when building your dam.


----------



## Studhauler

Oh, hey the link worked, cool.


----------



## Studhauler

A page or two ago FR made mentioned of getting a load a day or even a load a week to build a compost pile. I thought I would do a load a day on the day I wasn&#8217;t working. Since I think I will be getting 10 pick-up loads of manure this spring, I need 10 loads of carbon, and my only source is the township compost pile in the fall/ winter.

First day when good. Second day I got delayed in town and it was pitch black by the time I got out of town, so no load that day. Today I was going to take two loads to make up for the one I missed. It was freezing rain this morning so I worked in the garage. This afternoon it took me about a half hour to shift the truck into four wheel drive as the linkage is broke and I have to craw under the truck. I could only get it into four low, the township pile is only about 4 miles away, so off I went. MAN 25 MPH IS SLOW!!! After two load the day was mostly shot for starting a new project, so back under the truck for another half hour trying to get it into four high. I could shift it into 4 low, natural, and 2 wheel drive by hand, but for the life of me I could not get 4 high. It wouldn&#8217;t have been so bad if, it was a half hour of being under the truck, but it was a half hour of wet concrete and make a shift, get back up in the truck to see if the indicator light was in 4x4, back under the truck, repeat, repeat , repeat, repeat, repeat&#8230;. I ended up with 4 pick-up loads today. 

Loading at the township pile









Four loads at home.


----------



## CesumPec

You are a better man than me, Studhauler. Remarkable persistence.


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah and, gee thanks for the hydro pics. 

Now I ain't gunna sleep for a week. :indif:


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> ......and a little communing, when no one is looking.


 
Nooooooooooooooo! :runforhills:


----------



## Mickey

CesumPec said:


> as there are no more formal facilities on my farm as of yet, I can assure you I frequently add the number 1 and number 2 most beneficial and free composting materials.


 
Ewwwwwww :yuck: Another one lost to that wily Poopman!:sob: 
Stay strong people, stay strong :thumb:


----------



## Forerunner

May the urge be with you. :thumb:


----------



## ChristieAcres

I need to read the thread more often, won't stop smiling for a week...


----------



## katy

I feel silly, but just have to ask. I was advised that fresh milk that is a bit old is good for the garden, at least out of season. If this is so, may I ask why that would be ?


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## Paquebot

katy said:


> I feel silly, but just have to ask. I was advised that fresh milk that is a bit old is good for the garden, at least out of season. If this is so, may I ask why that would be ?


It's calcium in soluble form. That means that it is ready for plants to be able to use it.

Martin


----------



## katy

With that being said, could I use it on the house plants or garden starts, and if so should it be diluted ? And the cream factor ?


----------



## Paquebot

katy said:


> With that being said, could I use it on the house plants or garden starts, and if so should it be diluted ? And the cream factor ?


Use on house plants would depend upon requirements for each species. For example, I would never use it on African violets which do best in an acidic soil mix. On the other hand, cacti and succulents can handle alkaline soil and not be averse to a drink of milk now and then. Cream content would be no factor other than as protein to feed the soil bacteria. It would have no immediate affect on the plants, beneficial or otherwise.

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

katy said:


> I feel silly, but just have to ask. I was advised that fresh milk that is a bit old is good for the garden, at least out of season. If this is so, may I ask why that would be ?


What Martin said but in addition, the sugars feed the soil bacteria. I read in some organic magazine, maybe Acres USA, that a farmer used a few gallons of milk/acre diluted in water (can't remember the ratio but it seems it was very dilute, 1 to 20? 1 to 50?). He routinely sprayed this on pastures and felt that he had transformed the soil. Unfortunately, he had no non milk treated pastures as a test control to measure how much the milk had done and what his other practices did.


----------



## Trisha in WA

The general ratio is 1 gallon of milk to 20 gallons of water. There is was quite a study done on it as I recall, but I can't seem to find the link just now. If you Google milk as fertilizer, you'll get several sites talking about it.
If you're interested, there is also quite the lengthy discussion on the Keeping a Family Cow forum on this topic.


----------



## Studhauler

In the last 7 days I got 16 loads of leaves from the township pile.









Look, there is compost tea running down the side of my truck while I am loading at the township pile. This stuff either gets burned or pushed over the edge of a hill, so I liberated it from a life of no good. It was like taking candy form a baby, except the tears were tears of joy from me.











Here are piles one and two. The one in front of the truck was all my lawn clipping and leaves from this fall. I mow 5 acres. It was at least 3 times as big as the pile behind the truck, when it was made in October. The pile behind the truck is two load of leaves that probably will not compost but just get tilled into the garden.











This pile is pile number three, It has the load of manure that I finally got. I don&#8217;t think it will compost this winter as it is frozen and has to much dirt in it. I just put three load of leaves on top of it to add some mass and hopefully a blanket of warmth if the manure does its trick.










This is pile number four; it has 10 loads of leaves from the township pile. It is also just a pile of leave / carbon, waiting for next spring when hopefully I can get 10 pick-up loads of manure.


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## Forerunner

I find that I can get the nastiest frozen material heating if I get one loader bucket out of a hot, working pile to place in the core of the nasty.....unless, of course, the C/N ratio is already way out of whack.


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## Studhauler

Humm... "Dad, can I barrow your tractor again?"


----------



## CesumPec

Well done !!!


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## am1too

How much grey water can say a 10 ft by 10 ft 5 ft high take without a problem? I use no antibacterial soaps.


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## Studhauler

I ran a garden hose on my pile number one for about an hour and half. It was all dry leaves and dry grass. It was not composting, it was dead before I watered it. Afterwards the temp went way up and is composting very nicely.


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## Forerunner

If you want your compost pile to be an ongoing graywater "disposal", spread the water rather than continually saturating one area.
Build the pile bigger. 
Learn to use as little water as possible in the house, which is economically sound, anyway.

In drought conditions, it'll be a snap.
If you're in wet areas, tarp the pile so that the graywater is all that makes it through.

You may have to guinea pig a bit to find the balance.
If you develop saturated areas and a continual ooze at the bottom of the pile, yer not gunna be happy with your finished product, of the lingering aroma.


----------



## am1too

Ten gallons a week isn't much.


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## Forerunner

Agreed.

Ten gallons per week would not be a problem.


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## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> If you want your compost pile to be an ongoing graywater "disposal", spread the water rather than continually saturating one area.
> Build the pile bigger.
> Learn to use as little water as possible in the house, which is economically sound, anyway.
> 
> In drought conditions, it'll be a snap.
> If you're in wet areas, tarp the pile so that the graywater is all that makes it through.
> 
> You may have to guinea pig a bit to find the balance.
> If you develop saturated areas and a continual ooze at the bottom of the pile, yer not gunna be happy with your finished product, of the lingering aroma.


Hmmm, it might not smell so bad if you'd just stop all that darn "communing":frypan: :spinsmiley:


----------



## Forerunner

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfnopkT37I[/ame]


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Ten gallons per week would not be a problem.


just as long as you're not talking about your vodka habit


----------



## Mickey

Forerunner said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfnopkT37I


 
I've never heard of this person. Is she someone you used to "groove" to?ound:

BTW, I wish you and your family a very Blessed Christmas


----------



## Forerunner

CesumPec said:


> just as long as you're not talking about your vodka habit




Geez....what a scrooge. :indif:

Where's your festive spirit, already ? :smack:

ETA:

Imagine, if you will, several hundred billion thermophilic microbes, locking arms and swaying in unison to a festive rendition of "One Hundred Bottles of _Ruskie Standart_ on the Wall".


----------



## Forerunner

Mickey said:


> I've never heard of this person. Is she someone you used to "groove" to?ound:
> 
> BTW, I wish you and your family a very Blessed Christmas


_Used_ to ? Who's talkin' in the past, here ?


Thank you for the kind sentiments, all the same, though, in all honesty, around here, no one day stands out from the rest for unbridled, festively riotous frivolity. :shrug:


----------



## CesumPec

Merry Christmas and Happy Composting to all. 

Here's some photos of my newly assembled from scrap steel compost screener. I want to screen compost so that I can make potting soil for the greenhouse projects. In addition, as discussed previously, I have 5 big piles (30 - 50 ft diameter and 8 - 10 ft high) of pine stumps waiting to burn and 2 more larger piles that have already gone through 3 burn cycles that have left me with lots of char, ash, and sand mixed into the piles. the piles usually burn for about 2 weeks and then I put them out by covering with sand because of my travel schedule. 

In order to get this field ready to plant in a couple of months, I need to separate the fines from the piles. the fines will get spread and disced under and the larger pieces will either go through another burn or be added to the nearest compost piles. So to separate everything, my welder neighbor and i have built this. 

The idea is that I'll take the FEL and dump a scoop of burnt pile onto the high side of the screen, with the fines falling thru and the larger stuff rolling off the back. I haven't had a chance to test it out yet; my neighbor finished it after I left for Xmas fam visits. I'm worried we used too fine a screen, might have to make the screen table closer to level and even add an engine to vibrate the screen. We'll see, will post results later.


----------



## Forerunner

I'm looking rather forward to seeing how your screen works.

I'm also being thankful for deep ravines around the edges of the fields that need stumps and debris shoved into them to prevent erosion around these hilly parts. :huh:

Now if we all just had our homemade tub grinders up and running. :indif:


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Merry Christmas and Happy Composting to all.
> 
> Here's some photos of my newly assembled from scrap steel compost screener. I want to screen compost so that I can make potting soil for the greenhouse projects. In addition, as discussed previously, I have 5 big piles (30 - 50 ft diameter and 8 - 10 ft high) of pine stumps waiting to burn and 2 more larger piles that have already gone through 3 burn cycles that have left me with lots of char, ash, and sand mixed into the piles. the piles usually burn for about 2 weeks and then I put them out by covering with sand because of my travel schedule.
> 
> In order to get this field ready to plant in a couple of months, I need to separate the fines from the piles. the fines will get spread and disced under and the larger pieces will either go through another burn or be added to the nearest compost piles. So to separate everything, my welder neighbor and i have built this.
> 
> The idea is that I'll take the FEL and dump a scoop of burnt pile onto the high side of the screen, with the fines falling thru and the larger stuff rolling off the back. I haven't had a chance to test it out yet; my neighbor finished it after I left for Xmas fam visits. I'm worried we used too fine a screen, might have to make the screen table closer to level and even add an engine to vibrate the screen. We'll see, will post results later.


Well I think she needs a little more slope. The only problem I have is some material seems to catch on mine. I have quarter inch hardawre cloth on mine.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> Well I think she needs a little more slope. The only problem I have is some material seems to catch on mine. I have quarter inch hardawre cloth on mine.


My holes are about twice that size. It isn't exactly like normal expanded metal but is similar, the openings are shaped more like a huge cheese grater. Was used by a quarry in an industrial sized trommel. I would have been happier to get the whole trommel but it had already been disassembled and parted out by the time I found the pieces. 

The horizontal bar of the A frame was made so that we can drill more holes to shorten the horizontal piece to increase the slope. My bud and I were arguing as to whether more or less slope is right. Will have to test it to see. I wanted about 45 degrees but since I wasn't there and he has the welder, he won the first round.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> My holes are about twice that size. It isn't exactly like normal expanded metal but is similar, the openings are shaped more like a huge cheese grater. Was used by a quarry in an industrial sized trommel. I would have been happier to get the whole trommel but it had already been disassembled and parted out by the time I found the pieces.
> 
> The horizontal bar of the A frame was made so that we can drill more holes to shorten the horizontal piece to increase the slope. My bud and I were arguing as to whether more or less slope is right. Will have to test it to see. I wanted about 45 degrees but since I wasn't there and he has the welder, he won the first round.


 The slope has a lot to do with what will fall through the screen.

If you do not have enough slope the screen will need a little vibration help. I usuall just bang on the frame a little. I also have to take the occasional stuff that gets caught to keep stuff going down the screen. Forerunners tumbler is really more the way to go. But right now I have more time than money. Did I say I was cheeeeeep? Yep I did.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> The slope has a lot to do with what will fall through the screen.
> 
> If you do not have enough slope the screen will need a little vibration help. I usuall just bang on the frame a little. I also have to take the occasional stuff that gets caught to keep stuff going down the screen. Forerunners tumbler is really more the way to go. But right now I have more time than money. Did I say I was cheeeeeep? Yep I did.


Forerunner has a tumbler?!? As in a trommel? Are there photos somewhere in this thread or do I get to blast him unmercifully for failing us all? 

And yeah, I was cheap too. I gotta admit.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Forerunner has a tumbler?!? As in a trommel? Are there photos somewhere in this thread or do I get to blast him unmercifully for failing us all?
> 
> And yeah, I was cheap too. I gotta admit.


Yep beneies of reading the whole shebang. I will make one maybe next year. For right now my slant screen will do.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> Yep beneies of reading the whole shebang. I will make one maybe next year. For right now my slant screen will do.


I have read the whole thread, but that was months ago. FR - can you point me to the photos of your trommel?


----------



## Forerunner

Ummmm...... for the life of me, I don't recall posting about a tumbler or trommel, other than a hefty front end loader bucket that tumbles stuff pretty well. 





:run:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Ummmm...... for the life of me, I don't recall posting about a tumbler or trommel, other than a hefty front end loader bucket that tumbles stuff pretty well.
> 
> :run:


 It sure seems to me that your or at least someone posted a picture of a small (maybe 26") round screen bout 3 or 4 ft long powered by a 5 horse engine to sift compost. I commented on it in this thread maybe a year ago. I used such a device to sort worms from their bedding late 70's. It even inspired me to collect some junk bicycles to make one. You put the desired screen size inside the spokeless rims with rivits. Place a drive belt on the middle rim.


----------



## Forerunner

Anything I would have mentioned, from my own experience, in that regard, would have been extremely small scale and entirely manual.

Any chance you could direct us to the page and post # for reference ?


----------



## am1too

Oops! it wasn't forerunner after all it was Lloyd J in post 712 with a link to flicker. His is with an elcetric motor. I will set mine up with a 5 hp engine to make it more portable. It will also have some sort of wheels - perhaps swivel wheels. I am thinking about setting it up so that I can take it to the compost yard and sift my stuf there. It would roll the length of my 16 ft trailer on the rails dumping all the debree to the side. My reason for this idea is because my tiller will not handle big hard chuncks and I would get rid of the trash at the sametime. For now I use a slide screen and take the trash back. I keep the large organic material and gravel. I currently net 50% fine compost from a load. Current stash of fines for garden is bout 500 cu ft.


----------



## CesumPec

good checking there Am1too. Yep that trommel is just what I want, only I want one several times larger. 

I'm thinking about powering from a PTO or possibly running a belt from my chipper which gives me a transmission between engine and belt drive. It would need to be large enough to have a hopper that would take a 1.5 yard scoop from the FEL. I'm thinking having the drum sit on 1 dead and 1 live trailer axle, 4 tires to hold it steady. I haven't worked out all the engineering because I don't have the parts handy and if the screen table works, it is all moot.


----------



## Gaea Star

Recently moved so had to put my composting aspirations on hold for awhile, but came to get a fix noticed not a lot of pictures recently.  Makes it hard to get a composting fix guys. Going to try to get my DF to realize that he needs more than just manure to amend the soil, but he is stubborn so I will just have to do it. Then maybe he will stop complaining about me wanting to collect all that manure and other pile food.  Then maybe he wont complain so much when I tell him I'm getting a :cow: and :chicken:s.

P.S. Forerunner you are slacking with the pictures of your black gold /grin


----------



## Forerunner

Handy that the homestead cam was recently dropped from an elevation not conducive to uneventful impact. :indif:

You didn't like the field and hydro project pics ? :shrug:

I'm looking forward to the supremely green view around here, come March. :thumb:

We'll likely be back in a cam by then, too.


----------



## Studhauler

am1too said:


> Current stash of fines for garden is bout 500 cu ft.


Well done! :thumb:


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> good checking there Am1too. Yep that trommel is just what I want, only I want one several times larger.
> 
> I'm thinking about powering from a PTO or possibly running a belt from my chipper which gives me a transmission between engine and belt drive. It would need to be large enough to have a hopper that would take a 1.5 yard scoop from the FEL. I'm thinking having the drum sit on 1 dead and 1 live trailer axle, 4 tires to hold it steady. I haven't worked out all the engineering because I don't have the parts handy and if the screen table works, it is all moot.


I think one would need a ramp to work one that large. I think you would also need a belt or a large pit to handle the volume. I only have 10 acres I desperately need to bury in a foot of compost. My immediate open ground is about 5 acres.


----------



## am1too

Gaea Star said:


> Recently moved so had to put my composting aspirations on hold for awhile, but came to get a fix noticed not a lot of pictures recently.  Makes it hard to get a composting fix guys. Going to try to get my DF to realize that he needs more than just manure to amend the soil, but he is stubborn so I will just have to do it. Then maybe he will stop complaining about me wanting to collect all that manure and other pile food.  Then maybe he wont complain so much when I tell him I'm getting a :cow: and :chicken:s.
> 
> P.S. Forerunner you are slacking with the pictures of your black gold /grin


A guy has to work sometime.


----------



## calfisher

So, lets talk about grubs. My pile is about 6' x 15' and about 5' tall. It is mixed with leaves and grass with some chicken manure compost mixed in. Is is cooking pretty good right now. I keep adding leaves and grass weekly. There are tons of grubs about the size of your thumb thru out the pile. Are they good or bad?


----------



## Forerunner

Don't know your location, there, CF....but I will assume you've got June Bug grubs.

They are actually _very_ good.

I find them at their absolute best sauteed in a spot of bacon grease, then sprinkled liberally with Parmesan cheese. Eat 'em while their hot.

Bon Appetit.


----------



## Copperhead

calfisher said:


> So, lets talk about grubs. My pile is about 6' x 15' and about 5' tall. It is mixed with leaves and grass with some chicken manure compost mixed in. Is is cooking pretty good right now. I keep adding leaves and grass weekly. There are tons of grubs about the size of your thumb thru out the pile. Are they good or bad?


You mentioned chicken manure . . . I would go out one morning and level the pile and let the chickens have at 'em. If you have any doubt about your chicken's foraging ability, pick up a handful and sling 'em in the chicken coop!

Remember, what the chickens eat now, can't hurt your garden this summer!


----------



## Forerunner

Copper brings up a point that I think I've mentioned in here before.....

Chickens make great compost helpers.

If a man had the room, he'd do well to set up his composting operation where his chickens had full access. Those birds will find and benefit from every morsel that can be scratched up in the top 18 inches, while simultaneously keeping weeds and bugs eliminated as they appear, while simultaneously re-arranging those top 18 inches, or so, until the whole pile is nearly humiliated to tears....at which point the good compost engineer adds pitch fork or front end loader back into the arrangement and mounds the pile back up to height.

Hogs would do the same, and, back in the day several feeder pigs could be raised to market with little additional feed....if a guy had a big enough pile of residual horse and cattle bedding.

These days, though, I think chickens have more to offer....and are becoming much easier to get a hold of.


I still hate to see good, fat, juicy, tasty grubs go to waste on chickens, though. :bored:


----------



## Gaea Star

Love the pictures just noticing not nearly as many as I have been spoiled with previously the camera problem is obviously the reason. I suppose Forerunner can have a couple hours to work =p. While I have been not looking at this thread have been doing some research on Aquaponics / Vermaponics. This site Http://bioponica.org/ has some interesting information as well as tons of things I found on Youtube. Seems to me it might benefit from compost also. Thoughts? Oh and just for historical context on it try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinampa


----------



## Studhauler

My thought is the gov is paying rual famers not to farm their land via CRP. Now the gov is paying urban famers to farm??????????


----------



## Forerunner

Either way, once the government pays....they have a 51% say, at the very least.

Now if we were to remove the enticing tax-funded "incentives" and concentrate on the production methods and capabilities of those in the articles, well......


----------



## Gaea Star

LoL yeah no tax incentives for me just looking at the methods of production I don't want Big Brother in my back yard.


----------



## gssmms

I'm new here, and wanted to thank Forerunner and everyone else for your wisdom, questions, answers, pictures & pontifications!!
Just on this thread alone I had to jump to the last page to make this comment... now I'll go back and finish getting caught up on the previous 60+ pages... as well as all the other great threads on this site!
Thanks again!!!


----------



## CesumPec

Extreme composting failure

My neighbor who repairs my backhoe wanted to borrow it over Christmas while I was out of town. I have no prob with that at all. But I asked him to dig a pit to bury a pile of garbage (mostly junk found on the farm and neighboring national forest since I bought the place in 2011) and to make sure it was all at least 3 feet below the surface. What was I thinking? 

He spotted a compost pile that had been sitting for over a year. It was about 40 ft in diameter and still over 6 ft high after sitting that long. It was made from about a quarter acre's worth of land clearing chips, contained many days morning communings, and had more than a dozen dead critters in it to at least move it towards a reasonable C:N ratio. When I looked into the pile a month or so ago, it was thick with wonderful mycelium because I had been throwing shrooms into it all year. 

When I got back he told me had had seen my "trash pile" and buried it like I asked. He said it was good to get rid of it because it was just turning into dirt. I so want to :bash: him. And he didn't even touch the pile that really is the garbage. 

I was planning on using that compost where I'm putting in fruit trees this year. :smack


----------



## Ross

Can't you dig it back up? That must have been one big hole he dug!!


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Extreme composting failure
> 
> My neighbor who repairs my backhoe wanted to borrow it over Christmas while I was out of town. I have no prob with that at all. But I asked him to dig a pit to bury a pile of garbage (mostly junk found on the farm and neighboring national forest since I bought the place in 2011) and to make sure it was all at least 3 feet below the surface. What was I thinking?
> 
> He spotted a compost pile that had been sitting for over a year. It was about 40 ft in diameter and still over 6 ft high after sitting that long. It was made from about a quarter acre's worth of land clearing chips, contained many days morning communings, and had more than a dozen dead critters in it to at least move it towards a reasonable C:N ratio. When I looked into the pile a month or so ago, it was thick with wonderful mycelium because I had been throwing shrooms into it all year.
> 
> When I got back he told me had had seen my "trash pile" and buried it like I asked. He said it was good to get rid of it because it was just turning into dirt. I so want to :bash: him. And he didn't even touch the pile that really is the garbage.
> 
> I was planning on using that compost where I'm putting in fruit trees this year. :smack


Er well ya got er turned fer free.:sob::happy: So jus dig er up and put it where ya wants when time comes.


----------



## Mickey

Oh NOOOOOOOO :sob: How did you keep from :hammer:


----------



## CesumPec

Ross said:


> Can't you dig it back up? That must have been one big hole he dug!!


I suppose I could dig it up, but there is only so much time in the day. My highest priority is get a horse pasture cleared (almost done), burned (doing), disced (doing), and seeded prior to month's end. If I don't get that pasture ready for the DW's horse, I can forget about her moving herself and her true love down from Virginia this fall. I'm getting lonely!

And it was a huge hole because he also buried about 20 - 30 cords of cut logs that were too big to go through my chipper and probably 50 pine and oak stumps. I guess I'm in the hugelculture businesses, unfortunately he went too deep for optimum hugelculture. That is where i was planning on putting in strawberries, grapes, and blackberries.


----------



## Forerunner

CesumP, I am so beyond speechless. :smack:

That might woulda sent me over the edge.






On a positive note, welcome aboard, Gssmms. Me an' the Boys are honored to be graced with yer first post. 

Don 't mind CesumP. He's always got some elaborate sob story or another unfolding as we speak. I spend a few minutes crying for him, most nights, just before I fall asleep.

Cesum, I second the motion that you dig it up. The mixing with the native soil and such can't hurt, and the stuff is as valuable as gold..... to us, ummm....weird Extremists and stuff.



















:sob:


----------



## CesumPec

On the non fail side of the composting equation, I did pick up an otter and armadillo a couple of days ago. First time I've ever held an otter. Their tails are so thick and muscular, nothing like a dogs tail. It was a big male, 30 - 40 lbs. They are one of my fave animals to watch, sad to see him dead in the road but I have new compost piles to feed.


----------



## Forerunner

An otter. 

Now that's cool.

I've smelled armadillo in hot Arkansas summer......
I dare say, Arkansas smells like dead armadillo in the summertime, IME.
It's getting hotter hear, all the time, but the armadillo have yet to invade this Illinois latitude.

I've gathered a few beaver, fox, coyote......even a badger, but yet to pick up an otter.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Ok, I am ready to DO THIS! 










This is my garden space.
I am going to add 2 boxes to the top 2 rows and 1 box in the last row this year.

I want to start composting. I have checked out a zillion books at the library and get buried in the details.

I really, don't know where to start, but I know that I NEED to start.
help.....please.


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome to the fold, Laura. It's about high time. 

If nothing else, start with a small pile of sawdust, and commune with it, when no one is looking. After that initiation, the Force will come, and guide you through the rest.

....Or, just start at the beginning of this thread (pour a big cup of coffee, good and hot, if you're into that sort of thing) and hold on for the Extreme Compostingest ride of your life !


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Laura - Pile. Things. Up. Or... Bury. Stuff. (where you want to start your new beds)  Just do it!

It's sort of like making your own bread - it may seem difficult but once you get started you learn as you go.

Read this thread and it will inspire you about more than composting, too.

When I first started, I made a goal to get a pickup-sized pile going in my yard and we did it! Then we got used to doing that over and over again. Then we got worms, yay!!

I can't remember exactly where you are so maybe your ground is frozen but do what FR says and maybe you can add your kitchen scraps? We've used everything from grass clippings to cardboard to shredded paper to pony poo and goat poo. Potty training toddlers can be taught to dump their little pee pot in the pile, too - that works great in the Summer (hope my DD does not read this). You WILL figure it out.

Go forth and pile and bury and make dirt and have worms.:banana:


----------



## Mickey

eep: I'm pretty sure Mr Poopman would tell you to teach the toddlers to "commune" with the pile themselves and save a trip to the pile to dump the potty.Ewwwww:yuck:

BTW, nice looking garden space Laura


----------



## Forerunner

Just cuz. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...building-durable-compost-bin.html#post4227186

....And fer the newbies. 

.....And, CesumPec needed to see some finished compost, just so's he don't forget what it looks like.

I understand he likes to spread stuff that's still on fire. :shrug:


----------



## am1too

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ok, I am ready to DO THIS!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my garden space.
> I am going to add 2 boxes to the top 2 rows and 1 box in the last row this year.
> 
> I want to start composting. I have checked out a zillion books at the library and get buried in the details.
> 
> I really, don't know where to start, but I know that I NEED to start.
> help.....please.


Mow and pile up that grass. A few leaves from thos trees would be nice. Bet there are some brown ones on the ground bout this time of year. Mix em up a little or layer them. A little water once in a while wouldn't hurt either. Let the pile do its thing.


----------



## Phantomfyre

Relax, Laura. Yes, there are ways to speed up the process and balance your carbon/nitrogen ratios and ensure even "cooking," etc., but ultimately, know this: COMPOST HAPPENS. :bouncy:


----------



## jlrbhjmnc

Mickey said:


> eep: I'm pretty sure Mr Poopman would tell you to teach the toddlers to "commune" with the pile themselves and save a trip to the pile to dump the potty.Ewwwww:yuck:


Hey, at least it's outside! If their Mom caught wind of communing without the potty, well... I work within the system, bwa ha ha ha


----------



## CesumPec

Went to the local farm equipment auction today. Because I live in envy of FR, I...MUST...HAVE...MORE...CHIPS. 

My 1978 Asplundh 6 inch chipper was slowing me down on land clearing and it had gotten so that I was burning more than chipping just to speed the process. Saw one of these at the auction

http://www.banditchippers.com/index.php?option=com_models&task=view&itemId=15&lineId=2&modelId=3

Did my home work, found them online to have sold recently for WAY more than my budget would allow, so I didn't have any confidence I would make the purchase. But it ended up going for somewhere near 25 - 33% of the expected market value. Wooo Wooo, now I have a 12" chipper. There was only one other bidder and he too wasn't all that interested unless it was a steal. So I stole it. 

Another advantage of the Bandit is that it has all the latest safety features and hydraulic feeders. The Asplundh is a chuck and duck style with no safety, so if you trip, you die. 

Time to sell the little chipper and make lots and lots of chips. And then make the move up from otters, *****, and possums to composting horses and cattle. :happy2:


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

CesumPec said:


> Went to the local farm equipment auction today. Because I live in envy of FR, I...MUST...HAVE...MORE...CHIPS.
> 
> My 1978 Asplundh 6 inch chipper was slowing me down on land clearing and it had gotten so that I was burning more than chipping just to speed the process. Saw one of these at the auction
> 
> http://www.banditchippers.com/index.php?option=com_models&task=view&itemId=15&lineId=2&modelId=3
> 
> Did my home work, found them online to have sold recently for WAY more than my budget would allow, so I didn't have any confidence I would make the purchase. But it ended up going for somewhere near 25 - 33% of the expected market value. Wooo Wooo, now I have a 12" chipper. There was only one other bidder and he too wasn't all that interested unless it was a steal. So I stole it.
> 
> Another advantage of the Bandit is that it has all the latest safety features and hydraulic feeders. The Asplundh is a chuck and duck style with no safety, so if you trip, you die.
> 
> Time to sell the little chipper and make lots and lots of chips. And then make the move up from otters, *****, and possums to composting horses and cattle. :happy2:


Awesome! We need pics post haste!


----------



## Forerunner

Post haste ! :grin:


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Hastely post it!


----------



## YamahaRick

Forerunner, I am new to this forum and finished the first four pages (120 of the 2000 posts) of this thread. Mighty impressive. I look forward to reading more as I have time. I've learned a lot; thanks (to everyone) for sharing your story.


----------



## CesumPec

I didn't have but a few minutes on the farm today. The new chipper checked out perfect. It has been recently serviced with new fuel, oil, hydraulic, and air filters, new oil and hydraulic fluid, all the lube joints were fresh and full. It operates WAAAAAAAY easier than what has now become the little chipper in the background. 

I put a few 8 inch logs through it because they had already been cut this week and were in a pile waiting to be hauled to the burn pile. Wow, it chomped everything very efficiently and made nice chips. :rock:


----------



## Rafter B

that is an amazing machine. good for you


----------



## mamma24

I have a compost pile going in our back woods that is the shavings and poop/urine that we clean from our rabbit cages in the winter. In the summer I add kitchen scraps and garden scraps to it. I have been dumping the rabbit cage ingredients here for about 2 years and it doesn't seem to be breaking down very fast. Does anyone have any suggestions how to get it to break down faster? The pile gets a fair amount of rain (when it rains) and the snow sits on it all winter. I'm wondering if the pine bedding shavings percentage is just too high in ratio to the rabbit waste? I'm new to composting and trying to get a feel for the ratios - I haven't added much grass clippings yet - was going to try that this summer. 

PS - I love all the pictures and ideas in this post! It's so nice to see green grass and brown compost piles when all I see outside my window in snow and ice!!


----------



## wottahuzzee

I used to raise rabbits so this is what I did. There was a sawmill in the neighborhood and he was more than happy to have people come get all the sawdust they wanted. I am sure that good old boy spent some time laughing at me but too bad. The sawdust was a mix of pine and hardwood, just whatever he ran through. I had hanging wire cages, so I would pile up the sawdust around 2 feet thick under the rabbit cages and, of course, less in the walkways. The sawdust would catch all the poop/pee and dropped food which included produce trimmings or garden rejects. 

In those days you could still get veg trimmings from the grocery stores and I would get it whenever I could. Depending on what I got, I fed rabbits, goats, chickens, and/or several compost piles. 

I would keep what I call a potato fork in the rabbit area and turn the sawdust/pee/poop mixture to try to keep as much sawdust as possible on the top and to get O2 into it. The earthworms in that sawdust were amazing -- looked like baby snakes. The nitrogen coming in from the rabbit pee really broke the sawdust down fast.

When the time came to clean it out, it could go right into the garden. That stuff was amazing. I was in the Ozarks at that time, and the soil I had was sandy and rocky. When I got through with a garden area, it was like walking on a damp sponge. Ahh, the good old days.


----------



## Lloyd J.

I still use the trommel screener for small volumes but found we needed something larger and more robust for larger volumes with more foreign objects (stones, bricks, large branches etc) that we could feed with the skid steer. We use an old conveyor to pile the screened material. We set it up with a 5/8ths inch screen but we have finer and courser if we need them.

Lloyd


----------



## CesumPec

Lloyd J. said:


> I still use the trommel screener for small volumes but found we needed something larger and more robust for larger volumes with more foreign objects (stones, bricks, large branches etc) that we could feed with the skid steer. We use an old conveyor to pile the screened material. We set it up with a 5/8ths inch screen but we have finer and courser if we need them.
> 
> Lloyd


the conveyor :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

that's what's wrong with mine, I need more automation.


----------



## am1too

Lloyd J. said:


> I still use the trommel screener for small volumes but found we needed something larger and more robust for larger volumes with more foreign objects (stones, bricks, large branches etc) that we could feed with the skid steer. We use an old conveyor to pile the screened material. We set it up with a 5/8ths inch screen but we have finer and courser if we need them.
> 
> Lloyd


Now a conveyor would be very nice to have.


----------



## Lloyd J.

I mostly use it for building piles/windrows when I am de-bagging. It is a real handy tool.

Lloyd


----------



## StayPuff

MullersLaneFarm said:


> Having seen Forerunner's compost piles and gardens up close and personal back in the summer of 2005, I'm still in awe 5 years later. It put a whole other meaning to the concept of composting.
> 
> If anyone has a chance to go to Forerunner's place, go for it. The pictures just don't do it justice. The lush gardens, the odor free piles are simply amazing.


I'm new to this site, and I have to shamefully admit that I thought this guy was just a bit kooky! But then, after reading more and more of it, I have to admit that my mother has been doing the same thing, on a smaller scale of course, for many years. She uses her large pile of wood chips/plant compost to eat her dead livestock as well. I also have to admit, that I have a huge pile of tree mulch that I started this spring and summer, and will be doing the same thing but on a smaller scale as well. My tree service friend will bring me as many loads as I want for free, and so far I have about 25 loads or so. The question that I *frighteningly* ask is this: Will I too become as addicted to this as well? Forerunner has me somewhat scared, that I may too become as obsessed with composting as he has....in a good way of course! Here are a couple of pics of my new composting operation. I'm just getting started, and am currently in the 'system development' stage. ;-)


----------



## StayPuff

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ok, I am ready to DO THIS!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my garden space.
> I am going to add 2 boxes to the top 2 rows and 1 box in the last row this year.
> 
> I want to start composting. I have checked out a zillion books at the library and get buried in the details.
> 
> I really, don't know where to start, but I know that I NEED to start.
> help.....please.


I'm looking at your wonderful garden, and I think I see that you already HAVE started. Isn't that a small pile of old veggie matter on this side of your garden? If not, all you need to get started, is to start piling up everything vegetative that you don't want anymore. You can get fancy and build boxes and stuff, but it's totally not necessary. Before long, you'll have a system in place, and if it gets big enough you'll be able to compost meat stuffs as well.... just go very light on the meat stuffs. You can overdo it really fast!


----------



## Forerunner

After reading this thread, you just _thought_ I was kooky ?

Geez.

Some people just don't get it. :indif:





















You listen to your Mama, now......

Sounds to me like she's one of the good, old school, homesteader women. :thumb:


----------



## StayPuff

Forerunner said:


> After reading this thread, you just _thought_ I was kooky ?
> 
> Geez.
> 
> Some people just don't get it. :indif:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You listen to your Mama, now......
> 
> Sounds to me like she's one of the good, old school, homesteader women. :thumb:


LOL! Thanks for the laugh... that's funny!  And.... actually she IS! You and her would have a lot in common and could probably talk for hours. She hates the electric grid too.


----------



## AverageJo

This spring's challenge.... how to keep the chickens from scratching in the pile(s) and just spreading them around.... Any suggestions??


----------



## Myrth

AverageJo said:


> This spring's challenge.... how to keep the chickens from scratching in the pile(s) and just spreading them around.... Any suggestions??


I have my piles encased in stock panels. They keep the compost neatly contained and keep chickens and most critters out. I have the fronts so they swing open like a gate for easy access.


----------



## StayPuff

Myrth said:


> I have my piles encased in stock panels. They keep the compost neatly contained and keep chickens and most critters out. I have the fronts so they swing open like a gate for easy access.


Excellent idea... This is what we did when I was a kid to keep the critters out. Another way, might be to use snow drift fence or chicken wire attached to small garden fence posts if you wanted to keep the cost down a bit more.


----------



## CesumPec

AverageJo said:


> This spring's challenge.... how to keep the chickens from scratching in the pile(s) and just spreading them around.... Any suggestions??


Let them scratch. It is free pile turning labor, free chicken feed, more poop in the pile. What's not to like?


----------



## Forerunner

Me, too. My chickens and I have a running contest.

I pile the material, as high as my loader can shove it up there, and the chickens work feverishly to melt that pile back down.......gleaning all manner of nutritious morsels throughout......then, after a few weeks, about the time they really begin to feel some sense of accomplishment, I'll wait for them to go to bed, of an evening, and sneak out there and shove it all up again. 

In the morning, when they are let back out of the chicken house, invariably, they all end up back over at the pile, staring up at it as though they've just seen n awful lot of work go down the drain....... there's even some stomping, hat tossing and expletives exchanged between them, but eventually they set to work melting that pile down again.

Like CesumP sez, it's all about the free labor.


The score, thus far ?

chickens= 4728

me-= 4729





















:hysterical:
















Suckers.


----------



## StayPuff

Forerunner said:


> *bows head humbly in somber recognition of a fellow Master, departed*
> 
> Oh, Rose...... he was one of the old school, for sure.
> 
> There are times and seasons and alignments of planets, moons and stars that have a direct correlation to the benefit that a man may not only impart to his compost pile, but realize in his own being as he bestows of himself to the teeming microbes at his feet, yet, the truth is much simpler than all of that.
> 
> A man and his compost pile are not unlike a man and his bride.
> 
> There is a communion.
> 
> Now just how reverent and deep that communion be is up to the man, and a wise man it is who understands how best to love and nurture his pile to mutual and stellar benefit.
> The first time a man pees on his compost be, have he one or many, is just as important as the honeymoon night of a newly wed couple.
> 
> Now, in spite of being monogamous by nature in the social sense, I do support multiple compost piles...... but there is always that one that has my heart above all the others.
> That is the pile with which I regularly commune.
> It sits just outside my bedroom window and is thereby quick to access when the urge comes.
> It is a quick exit for me, in the middle of the night, when most often I am affronted by the lust to so commune with the pile, just outside the bedroom door and to the left, onto the porch, a few short steps to the east and there is experienced the ecstasy known eons past by earth-aware men of old.
> It is by far the best on a clear night, under a full moon with a sky hidden in bright stars, be that in the heat of summer or the icy chill of January.
> As in other similar activities, it all starts out simply and innocently enough, almost routine. But as the act progresses, the true man of earth begins to experience a most rapturous sensation which culminates in near overwhelming climax...... man and pile at one..... microbes screaming their hearty cries of applause and thanksgiving.... the moon and stars, silent yet reverent witnesses to the loving act........
> 
> *pauses, overcome with emotion*
> 
> 
> What more can I say ?


I was reading this last night, and was reminded about how our founding fathers had an extreme passion for composting and manure too. There is an author that has written about this, though I have not read it yet. Her name is Andrea Wulf (http://m.npr.org/news/Arts+&+Life/135608423?singlePage=true)

I have a feeling that they would not approve of our modern agriculture systems today. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## Mickey

Now listen up you two. This here is a pg rated site, so if you fellers don't stop talkin' all this smut about "extreme passion", "rapturous sensations" and "overwhelming climaxes" , us rule abiding types are gonna have to turn you all in to the Rule Police:tmi::heh:


----------



## Copperhead

Sheesh! and I thought they were just talking about compost:run:


----------



## StayPuff

Mickey said:


> Now listen up you two. This here is a pg rated site, so if you fellers don't stop talkin' all this smut about "extreme passion", "rapturous sensations" and "overwhelming climaxes" , us rule abiding types are gonna have to turn you all in to the Rule Police:tmi::heh:


Hehehehe! Bring 'em on!:happy:


----------



## YamahaRick

Forerunner, your dedication to the art of composting has truly inspired me to have it as a major part of my planned farming operation. Right now it is just a dream, but maybe one day it will be reality.

My major goal is to source free to no-cost materials - I've noted many of the things you already do: dead livestock, yard trimmings, DOT dump trucks full of "waste" after performing tree trimmings, etc. I am also trying to study up on the ideal N-P-K to shoot for - as well as what the "raw" materials will contribute. Of course, then there is the need to monitor the process.

Simple checking here for GA says if more than 25% of the compost material is sourced elsewhere, you have to go through a painful permitting process, as if you were operating a landfill. While I plan to completely use the end product, if I were to sell it, that's another PITA as far as permitting is concerned.

Regardless, the concept of taking trash/garbage/waste and making it into something useful is too interesting for me to ignore. My work may not make it beyond my computer, but it won't be because I did not try.


----------



## Forerunner

Well, Rick....... you know my first suggestion.......kick up a pile of anything and pee on it. 
Then add some more stuff until the pile is big enough to heat.

The first day you go out there of a cool morning and see steam coming from pile top, center......you'll be hooked......and the last thing on your mind at that point will be statutes and regulations. :whistlin:

There's almost always a source of good, free mulch around. Once you tap into that, whether it be free pickup or delivery, progress feeds on itself and you're an addict.

I don't know any other way to put it. :shrug:


----------



## StayPuff

Has anyone used a manure spreader to lay finished compost down on a pasture?? Other than a shovel or loader bucket, are there any other ways to spread compost on large areas?


----------



## Forerunner

Pastures and hayfields, my recommendation........

The ideal time to spread finished compost where it won't be tilled in is right after the pasture/hay is mowed and right before a rain........and it's best spread an inch thick or less.

That way there is little kill on the grass and the compost lays in the open sun to leach nutrients to the heat and dry air for as short a time as possible (if at all).

An inch of rain on an inch of compost in a freshly baled alfalfa field is a gift, straight from the hand of God.


----------



## StayPuff

Do you use a manure spreader??


----------



## Forerunner

Used to, when I had one....... and a good spreader that will beat that stuff to granular is what you'd want.

Now, I'm restricted to building monumental piles on site and spreading them with a bulldozer before incorporating the material into the soil with ripper and disc.

It's working OK. I have 5-6 different sites/fields on which I can rotate my operation.


----------



## StayPuff

I was wondering about that... Spreading it on a garden, even a large garden, is one thing but trying to spread it evenly on large acreage can be challenging.


----------



## Anonymooose

Who's worried about perfection!  Even if you do get some grass kill, I bet it will come back so fast that by mid summer, you wouldn't be able to hardly tell it had happened.

Here's what we did. We hauled about 12 small dumptruck loads from a neighbors horse cleanings pile and spread them straight on our pasture from the dumptruck...I think it was a 5 yard truck, so not a huge pile in any one spot. Anyhow, then hubby borrowed a skidsteer to level and spread it out the best he could. We then moved the mobile chicken coop with about 60 hens onto the area and let them spread it to the four corners, rotating them around to hit all the spots. Took them off the area, did a minor amount of hand raking to fill in the holes that chickens seem to love to dig, and that was that. 

We are looking forward to seeing the lovely growth we get this spring. It was noticeable even last fall, before the snow fell.:bouncy:

We just need to find someone with a bigger dump truck.


----------



## YamahaRick

Well forerunner, I thought I'd give you an update - I spoke to a county agent in rural GA where there are a number of dairy producers nearby. He encouraged me to look around his area, as some of the producers have an issue with proper disposal of dairy waste.

I will meet with him in person in a few weeks; I hope to establish contact with some producers down there and maybe see if anything else around could be a supplier ... pulp mill, cotton mill, etc.

If this silly dream comes true, I'll have a plaque w/ your name on it, saying you caused all this mess.


----------



## Forerunner

I'll want pitchers.......... :gaptooth:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> I'll want pitchers.......... :gaptooth:


of what? straight nitrogen?:banana:


----------



## Forerunner

Naw........ C2H6O would be more festive.


----------



## Awnry Abe

68 pages and surely this is in there somewhere, but a quick-n-lazy search didn't yield fruit.

I can start to get shavings from a cabinet shop. They warned me that there would be plenty of glue-based composites, like particle board and plywood. But no finishes. All that gets done on site. Is this material OK for composting?


----------



## Rafter B

yeah, pictures pictures pictures, lol the more the better. 



YamahaRick said:


> Well forerunner, I thought I'd give you an update - I spoke to a county agent in rural GA where there are a number of dairy producers nearby. He encouraged me to look around his area, as some of the producers have an issue with proper disposal of dairy waste.
> 
> I will meet with him in person in a few weeks; I hope to establish contact with some producers down there and maybe see if anything else around could be a supplier ... pulp mill, cotton mill, etc.
> 
> If this silly dream comes true, I'll have a plaque w/ your name on it, saying you caused all this mess.


----------



## Forerunner

CrownRanch........ I wouldn't be afraid to use sawdust/shavings from wood composites.

It's the outdoor treated lumber residuals that even I won't compost intentionally.


----------



## YamahaRick

Forerunner said:


> Naw........ C2H6O would be more festive.


Don't worry, I'll remember you saying:


----------



## AverageJo

Does anyone know if there are trace minerals or vitamins, etc. or is it just NPK?


----------



## Forerunner

Need more info, AJ......

What substance are you inquiring about ?


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

YamahaRick said:


>


Love this much more than:


----------



## StayPuff

Forerunner said:


> Naw........ C2H6O would be more festive.


Haha! You know that a good 'shiner isn't going to release any evidence!


----------



## motdaugrnds

Well, it has sure taken its toll on my time; but this thread was not only a lesson in quality composting but an inspirational and joyful read as well. Thanks so much forerunner!

My compost pile (3 parts for ease in turning) is a "speck" of what you do; but am hoping for some quality bedding for my veggies/fruits from it.


----------



## Forerunner

Where had you been, all this time, MotG ? :shrug:

We been right here tellin' jokes and pitch forkin' shhhhhhhhhhhavings for quite some time now.........


----------



## motdaugrnds

ROFL well, I been digging off the topsoil for my new raised bed and preparing the area for my new composting.  At my age and with this weather, that has taken its toll! Say you got the cutest little boys....would sure love to have a few on this place....sure hope they attend good schools.


----------



## LittleRedHen

Well, I don't have much of my own compost and it is under snow. But this is a pile where i can fetch already composting piles of mulch for free (township transfer site)

I am given permission to fetch a load here there but I cannot clear out the pile since I am not a resident of the city  but... it works for me. I can use the composted material on my trees now and work on my own piles for eventual spreading throughout my very sandy yard to build up my soil



















There are also blueberry bushes. Eventually I want to fill in the whole area. I have a lot of sandburrs that grow in this area and i want to smother them out


----------



## Studhauler

All those young trees in fresh compost look nice.


----------



## Forerunner

I thought that black pile in the first pic looked nice.


----------



## ladyrua

My little urban homestead needs compost in the worst way - we're planting on top of the remains of previous occupation, so it's very much starting from scratch! Every year I add everything I can find, but it feels like a losing battle! This year, though, I'm on a mission!! I found a ton of stables on craigslist giving away their manure and although I know it'll be weedy, it's FREE and they'll load it for me! So tomorrow morning I'll be strapping the toddler into her car seat and loading my heavily pregnant self into a borrowed pickup to start making runs! Thank goodness a friend needs work and can unload it for me!

Thank you, Forerunner, for getting me on task this year. No composting, no crop for us!


----------



## Forerunner

LadyR...... if you pile that delicious bonanza of stall cleanings, they'll heat and kill most of those weed seeds. Horse manure and bedding is one of the best stand alone compost sources out there.


----------



## ladyrua

Ah - so I should wait to spread it out? I thought I should spread it so it'd have a chance to water down into the soil before spring? I haven't any machinery so I was just going to turn it into the soil a couple of inches when everything thaws.

I used sawdust for my garden paths two years ago and then my well-meaning hubby tilled the entire garden over, resulting in a serious N loss. Last years garden was so sad and spindly, and it took me awhile to figure out what was wrong (only been gardening 5 years now). So this is my year to fix it!! I'm hoping the manure helps, but I'm very fuzzy on the math to figure out how much I need....roughly a 20'x50' space. 3 cubic yards is about what I'll manage to haul tomorrow, then we're buying 3 cubic yards of mushroom compost too. Enough?


----------



## Forerunner

On a 20 by 50 plot, you could spread 30 yards of_ finished_ compost......and you'd see some phenomenal growth to follow. 

I would definitely make a couple piles of the horse stall cleanings......maybe one on each side of the garden. You could also spread the stuff a couple inches thick like you were thinking, and till it in come the thaw, and do pretty well, too. You'd just have a few more weeds and maybe some small evidence of an imbalance here and there.

Just wing it this year and make some good, hot piles to season for next year.
That's the beauty of composting. It's the gift that keeps on giving, and it's never too late or too soon to get the ball rolling.


----------



## ThomasBrownUGA

Can I just dig a 6 foot circular hole 6 feet deep and throw my grass cuttings and leaves after I cut them up too with microcut double-blade mower, and throw some dirt in there from time to time too, to compost ? Thank you.


----------



## Forerunner

Holy cow. 

That would be a lot of unnecessary work.

Such a configuration wouldn't drain and would likely even ferment rather than properly decompose. A simple pile, or a simple bin made from pallets or straw bales, would be much more satisfactory a setup for composting.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Hey, sharing Compost Pile GIFT STORY...

So, a few months ago, I dumped the extra Elephant Garlic and multiple varieties of Hard Neck Garlic out in our Compost Pile. Since they were old, just didn't give them much thought after that. I hadn't considered planting them due to their condition... DH was dumping all sorts of compost materials on top this Winter.

What did I recently discover? While dumping some compost material out there, I looked down and saw some Elephant Garlic plants. Bending down, I began digging around and found over (90) very happy plants, some up to 4" tall. Yesterday, I planted (30) of them, dug the rest of the holes, and will plant the remaining (60). I'll be digging around some more to see what else is growing in there...


----------



## Paquebot

ThomasBrownUGA said:


> Can I just dig a 6 foot circular hole 6 feet deep and throw my grass cuttings and leaves after I cut them up too with microcut double-blade mower, and throw some dirt in there from time to time too, to compost ? Thank you.


A few years ago, there was a gardener in Canada's Maritimes who did similar to that with what was pure glacial sand and gravel. He used a backhoe to dig trenches almost that deep and filled them with supermarket, restaurant, and fisheries waste. It was the ultimate in trench composting.

Martin


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## ThomasBrownUGA

Forerunner,

It is a lot of work. There is no question of that. I am not lazy, and I do enjoy the exercise. I have done this now for 10 years. I have dug 2 holes 6 feet diameter and 6 feet deep. Actually, I am more than about 9 feet now. My neighbors come over and all they see is dirt flying out from my shovel. The 1st year, I dug the 1st hole. That had roots and rocks. I had to use a pick and an axe quite a bit. I discarded all that. And, the dirt I piled up outside the hole.

The 2nd year, I had the 1st hole covered up, and above the ground like you show in the pictures here in this thread.

So, I had to dig a 2nd hole, and again pick and axe, and again a lot of roots and plenty of rocks.

The next Summer, I was all set then. Just dumped in the grass clippings, and then in the Fall, the leaves crunched-up.

The 3rd Summer, I decided I would dig up the 1 I did the 1st year. It was easy digging. Lots of worms and snails and black dirt. Really black dirt. I put it in wheelbarrows and spread it all over my yard.

Not one ant. Not one rock. No sticks. Great stuff.

Couple of weeks later, I had the greenest yard. It also leveled off some spots and I did some beds for flowers with it by the doors.

Easy to put the grass clippings and cut-up leaves in the hole then year 3. Been relatively easy each year since, although the holes seem to grow.

Like I said I am like 9 feet down now. Have to climb out. And, the width grows wider and wider, each year too.

I have the best dirt when here in Georgia what I was digging in was red clay, I am sure you know.

Before Christmas, we were 17 feet short at Lake Lanier where we get our drinking water. Now, it is 6 feet short. So, as you can imagine my digging has come to a halt now with the Lake the 9 feet hole has in it. But, when or if it dries out before Summer, I will have easy time getting all the soft dirt out of the bottom. 

I try to throw back the worms and snails and such. I have no weeds and no ants and no rocks, and my dirt is free.

Great dirt.

And, I get great exercise. And, everyone just looks at me like you said and roll their eyes.

I just ask them what they pay for dirt ? My neighbor bought a truck load. He sorted out rocks till the cows came home. He had ants. He has weeds from it. He has big sticks in it. And, he paid hundreds of dollars for the dirt.

I am not so much looking for a justification for continuing to do this until the Good Lord calls my name, as I am just wondering input on how others do this. I am not building a compost bin 6 feet wide and 9 feet tall, nor actually 2 of those. And, actually the pile grows on-top of the ground 6 feet high too. And, I am not having a pile that high no one can see over. My yard is nice. I spend all my time in it gardening. I don't want that. I can put-up with a hole 9 feet deep from February until the Summer when I throw a couple bags of grass in it and it looks full. Then, I put a little dirt from the previous year's compost. Then, more grass. Then the leaves all cut-up. Then, more grass. Then more dirt until it is like 6 feet in the air. Then, dirt for the top. And, it gets more and more compact.

Then, I start digging the hole out from 2 years' prior and spreading that dirt out. I am told this is Nitrogen. I buy no fertilizer, although I have used some Lime pellets each year, very lightly. And, ant killer. I just fill up my wheelbarrow, roll it to a spot and throw it out with a shovel until I get down to near the end and look for a spot I can dump the remaining load, and then spread-out that lot some.

I dug a spot the other day for some work I was doing, and after 10 years now, my yard is covered in deep black dirt down a good number of inches. The grass doesn't die because I don't dump that much on any 1 place. Kinda fling it loosely, and let Nature have her way.


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## I_don't_know

Paquebot I read your post about trench composting and you gave me an idea. The property next to mine is vacant and the erosion is unbelievable. The loss of top soil is bad but the flooding the runoff causes across the street is truly awful. Some of the trenches on the property are over 5&#8217; deep. What if I dump compostable items in the base of the trenches, there are about 12 or so, to help stop the fast water runoff and let the stuff decompose as it functions as a part-time dam, and then as the water slowly seeps through give it a trench to let the soil settle in. What do you think?


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## Paquebot

I_don't_know said:


> Paquebot I read your post about trench composting and you gave me an idea. The property next to mine is vacant and the erosion is unbelievable. The loss of top soil is bad but the flooding the runoff causes across the street is truly awful. Some of the trenches on the property are over 5â deep. What if I dump compostable items in the base of the trenches, there are about 12 or so, to help stop the fast water runoff and let the stuff decompose as it functions as a part-time dam, and then as the water slowly seeps through give it a trench to let the soil settle in. What do you think?


Dug trenches are one thing, erosion ditches are different. No ordinary organic matter is going to stop water from washing it out just as easily as plain dirt unless you make a dam of something more dense or solid. One way is to fill erosion ditches with logs and then sod over them. You could do something like that and mix organic material with the logs as you fill. Otherwise, that is just going to end up wherever the missing soil went. 

Martin


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## StayPuff

Thomas... there's no doubt that what you're doing is interesting and a bit strange in the composting world. But it sounds like it's working good for you. I grew up on land that was mainly composed of red clay too, and I know your pain when it comes to making your soil dark and fertile. Digging huge holes in red clay, is kinda like making giant clay pots in the earth. Even if they fill with water and ferment, like Forerunner stated, I believe it would be about like putting swamp dirt/mud on your soil. We had several hundreds of acres of swamp behind the property that I grew up on, and we used to haul some of that rotten, stinky stuff, and put it on our garden plots. Worked pretty good, and I would think that maybe you're getting some of the same benefits.
One question though: Do you put a fence or something over those deep holes to keep people and animals from falling in? I realize that once they are full of compost it's not an issue. But before it's full, how do you protect them?


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## I_don't_know

Thanks for the input. I know where to come when it comes down to the truly dirty questions.


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## StayPuff

I_don't_know said:


> Thanks for the input. I know where to come when it comes down to the truly dirty questions.


That's funny! Your right though, this has to be the dirtiest thread on the site. :hysterical:


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## ThomasBrownUGA

Martin,

"It was the ultimate in trench composting."

My dirt, to begin with on-top of the ground, and deep, deep down into the ground, was as all know of my environs, red clay with rocks.

Sticks in that, stay hard and do not compost, either. I have a corner fenced-in where the shade from my Pecan Grove doesn't allow sun much, and grass simply wouldn't fill-in nicely anyway.

I fancy I can make my yard like some you see with deep, rich grass. After 10 years of it, it gets better each year now.

Some of the hills are so steep, I frequently slip mowing and cannot cross-cut or it would turn-over on me. Over time now, with me throwing the vast majority of the made dirt there : Loosely each year wheelbarrow after wheelbarrow dug out of my composting pile made of just only grass clippings, leaf clippings and in the Winter, my ashes from my fireplace Old Man Bailey built for me in my very large bedroom, and the dirt from the compost pile thrown in every few feet to make that dirt better and, now the hills have become less severe, and actually grow much better grass now too.

I have leveled off the land, and have fewer and fewer bare spots, though the hills remain the main focal-point of the trench composting. You find no red clay in the yard on-top or anywhere in either of the two trench composting piles now, largely one contiguous pile spreading-out about 15 feet in all directions. 

The 1st few years, the compost dirt was not fit for spreading yet from all the red clay. I just dug it up, easily then, and put a little of that composting material in with the grass clippings, leaf clippings, and ash from my fireplace. And, again the 4th year, still more of the same. That is when the pile grew to 9 feet above ground, and I started to notice that the entire trench composting has provided the darkest black-earth free of ants, sticks, rocks and great for spreading out wherever the land needed it.

It all really started because of the DeKalb County Yard Trash Schedule. I spend the entire weekends, every weekend, gardening with no time during the week. I get the debris piling-up early Saturday morning. Were I to buy approved brown bags and carry it to the street, there it would sit until Friday afternoon when they pick-up my street. Indeed, this scene is exactly what my industrious neighbors have. Then, Saturday morning, early, back to the street with 5 bags of grass clippings, bag or 2 of ashes from my fireplace, or 20 bags of leaves, depending on the season.

Basically, we have on my street, bags in front of my house from Saturday morning, until Friday afternoon. Then, they pick-it up I pay for, and looks nice Friday night only. Plus where I put the bags is only back on the grass, killing it, or block my driveway, since blocking the busy sidewalk is not an option, nor on my highway 5 lanes wide in front of my home with a million cars a week passing by.

Vainly, I hear folks tell me my yard always looks the best of all.

I guess I just can't bear to have all that at the street Saturday morning until Friday 365 days' a year.

I already have a woodshed, and of course, my Morgan Building with all my power tools, and a basketball court, and alas I don't have the heart to build a composting structure of wood too to compost above ground, yet another structure which would have to be two 15 feet high 6 feet wide wood structures.

I see no difference, therefore, than digging down 9 feet February and March and start filling it in my fenced-in corner in the back, when I have unlocked gates in all 4 ends of the yard for anyone to freely travel through my yard, than having a pile of compost sitting only upon the top of red clay, not enhancing that corner in any fashion, nor the ground underneath a compost pile just sitting there as in the pictures above.

I fantasize I will dig-up gold or a chest of old coins, and like I say I love the exercise. I have improved the dirt in that corner. I have improved the yard nearly a foot in places all over. I try not to have the stench associated with burning smoking piles of animal droppings, nor the reek to the whiff of rotting garbage, for which I pay a handsome fee to the county anyway, and they pick that up Monday and Wednesday.

What I hoped for here in this thread, this blog, I have found in Martin discussing 

Trench Composting.

And, for that I thank you Martin.


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## Forerunner

They don't call us *Extreme Composting*, fer nuthin'. 


Now I've just about seen it all.


Thomas B..... looks to me like you did a fair job answering your own original query.


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## ThomasBrownUGA

No, I was looking for ways to improve Trench Composting. Again, what is the difference in what I've successfully been doing, and just piling it up on the ground ?

That answer is nothing, other than piling it up on the ground does nothing for the soil underneath the pile. The compost pile in the ground can only get water down into it, while the trench is deeper than the clippings. Pretty much when you start putting clippings into the trench, the trench seems full to the eye. When it is as a hole and is dry, I put clippings in it. When it is as a hole and full of water, I wait to start filling it, and can easily dig out the wet dirt.

Martin seems to be aware of similar. You don't.


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## LittleRedHen

ThomasBrownUGA said:


> Can I just dig a 6 foot circular hole 6 feet deep and throw my grass cuttings and leaves after I cut them up too with microcut double-blade mower, and throw some dirt in there from time to time too, to compost ? Thank you.


I had a hole on my property once. I live on sand mind you. But I tossed my leaves in there for a few years and other things. It composted and now I no longer have a hole. No issues with drainage since I live on sand. I am currently filling in a big hole with manure, hay etc and I know it will take longer to compost than if I just made a huge pile but with only a pitch fork and my overweight out of shape body, its what I can do . Within 2 years it should be nice soil specially once the worms find it (it is a 20x20 by 2-3 foot deep hole)


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## LittleRedHen

Ooh I see now.. you live on hard compact clay. What a pain! I'd think it would be less effort if you had a mound on top of the ground... making a wet soupy mess I think would hinder the composting process


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## StayPuff

ThomasBrownUGA said:


> Martin seems to be aware of similar. You don't.


Ouch Thomas.... no need to start a composting war. There are always different ways of doing the same thing. Like the old saying goes: 'There's more than one way to skin a cat!'.

One more note... and don't get your feathers ruffled, okay? Composting effectively, requires a constant influx of oxygen for the little organisms to thrive. True, you can still compost the way you're doing it....But, having more of the 'pile' exposed to air, rather than being in a hole where air is harder to get to and circulate, will allow the organic matter to thoroughly decompose at a faster and more consistent rate. Here is an outfit perfecting the idea of using compost heat to feed a heat exchanger. They talk about the importance of oxygen circulation: http://www.magicsoil.com/Heat/index.htm


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## Paquebot

Trench composting for me was done out of necessity when we were raising up to 80 or more rabbits at any given time for a local market. Given a choice of using half of the garden space for a huge dung heap, trenches were dug in the garden. They were 3' deep and 3' wide and 6' to 8' or longer. The winter's accumulation of manure and bedding was packed in to ground level and mounded with about 6" of soil. First year was always beans and after that didn't matter. Eventually over 1200 square feet of garden area was at least a foot higher without adding any more real soil other than some sand to reduce compacting.

Martin


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> On a 20 by 50 plot, you could spread 30 yards of_ finished_ compost......and you'd see some phenomenal growth to follow.
> 
> I would definitely make a couple piles of the horse stall cleanings......maybe one on each side of the garden. You could also spread the stuff a couple inches thick like you were thinking, and till it in come the thaw, and do pretty well, too. You'd just have a few more weeds and maybe some small evidence of an imbalance here and there.
> 
> Just wing it this year and make some good, hot piles to season for next year.
> That's the beauty of composting. It's the gift that keeps on giving, and it's never too late or too soon to get the ball rolling.


Would that be a bit thick?


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## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Would that be a bit thick?


Depends on what you are aiming for. If just adding enough compost for nutrients and soil amendment value, 2" would be fine. If you wanted to grow in pure compost, 30 yards would give you about 10" on 1,000 square feet. 

Martin


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## Anonymooose

Thomas, I do believe that Forerunner said it would be alot of extra work, digging those trenches. 

If that's the way you want to do it, then have at it. But don't attack a guy for simply giving his opinion.


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## Forerunner

I don't mind the occasional sparks, A-Moose. 

You know, they say, the best way to tell what's in a man's cup is to bump it.


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## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Depends on what you are aiming for. If just adding enough compost for nutrients and soil amendment value, 2" would be fine. If you wanted to grow in pure compost, 30 yards would give you about 10" on 1,000 square feet.
> 
> Martin


OK my math is having a problem today. I seemed to have droped a zero somewhere.


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## Forerunner

Admittedly, even coming from me, Am1......100 inches would be excessive. 

2-10 inches is great.


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Admittedly, even coming from me, Am1......100 inches would be excessive.
> 
> 2-10 inches is great.


Gotta be cause it is snowing down here today. Is 30 Cu Yd 810 Cu Ft? Martin is close to 10". Seems some zeroes are floating around. I lost one and it seems you found it.:banana: Was gonna pick up 8 yrds of horse stall cleanings. But I can do it in the sun tomorrow. Crossing my fingers. This is Oklahoma. Neighbor is envious of my pile.


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## StayPuff

According to my math, which is HIGHLY questionable, you're correct. 30 Cu Yd = 810 Cu Ft. Therefore, if Volume / Area = Height, then 810/1000 = .81.
.81*12 = 9.72 inches.

Like I said: HIGHLY questionable!


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## bja105

Paquebot said:


> The winter's accumulation of manure and bedding was packed in to ground level and mounded with about 6" of soil. First year was always beans and after that didn't matter.
> Martin


Martin, Why did you choose Beans first?


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## unregistered41671

ThomasBrownUGA said:


> No, I was looking for ways to improve Trench Composting. Again, what is the difference in what I've successfully been doing, and just piling it up on the ground ?
> 
> That answer is nothing, other than piling it up on the ground does nothing for the soil underneath the pile. The compost pile in the ground can only get water down into it, while the trench is deeper than the clippings. Pretty much when you start putting clippings into the trench, the trench seems full to the eye. When it is as a hole and is dry, I put clippings in it. When it is as a hole and full of water, I wait to start filling it, and can easily dig out the wet dirt.
> 
> Martin seems to be aware of similar. You don't.





Anonymooose said:


> Thomas, I do believe that Forerunner said it would be alot of extra work, digging those trenches.
> 
> If that's the way you want to do it, then have at it. But don't attack a guy for simply giving his opinion.


^^^^Exactly ^^^^

Why not start a thread on "trench composting" and enlighten us all?


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## Anonymooose

Am1too, the last place we lived, I had a little bitty 25 ft x 25ft garden with about 8-12 inches of the neighbors horse stall cleanings layered on top of solid beach sand... it was sort of like one big raised bed. The first year we put it down, there was a bit of heat to it, but not enough to kill the plants.

The tomatoes were HUGE! Each year for 3 years, the soil mellowed and composted in place. The only caveat, is to catch the weeds before the go crazy in that luscious stuff. When we moved out, the weeds took over and all I can say is, wowzas.


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## CesumPec

ThomasBrownUGA said:


> No, I was looking for ways to improve Trench Composting. Again, what is the difference in what I've successfully been doing, and just piling it up on the ground ?
> 
> That answer is nothing, other than piling it up on the ground does nothing for the soil underneath the pile. The compost pile in the ground can only get water down into it, while the trench is deeper than the clippings. Pretty much when you start putting clippings into the trench, the trench seems full to the eye. When it is as a hole and is dry, I put clippings in it. When it is as a hole and full of water, I wait to start filling it, and can easily dig out the wet dirt.
> 
> Martin seems to be aware of similar. You don't.


I used shallow trench composting when I was still gardening in a suburban home, with no place for piled compost. My lot had had all the top soil scraped off when the house was built 20 yrs prior, and there wasn't but maybe an inch of soil on top of the clay. It worked very well to improve my garden soil, and produce a raised bed after a few years. 

I'm no expert on composting, but deep trench composting sounds like to me that it is similar to running a municipal dump. Yep, everything is going to decay, but it will be oxygen deprived and tend towards methane production. That might be a great route to take if you are a dairy farmer and want to convert manure to tractor fuel. I just don't think it is an optimum way to use compost. 

I disagree that piled compost does nothing for the soil below. rain goes thru the pile and leaches into the ground carrying all sorts of nutrients. That, I think, is why martin prefers bin composting, so he doesn't lose anything in processing. The same happens in trench composting, I'm just guessing but I believe nutrient loss would be worse because the deep pit would collect more water from tops and side seepage and what runs out the bottom would be too far out of the desired zone for garden annuals. 

To improve soil to a useful depth, you can see prior in this thread where FR trenches and fills with finished compost. I believe that is a better alternative, but he's got lots of farm equipment others may not have, so his options might not apply to some others. 

To improve my newly acquired farm, I'm clearing the garden areas and chipping everything smaller than 8 inches and stacking the larger logs. Where I will have plantings, I dig down about 3 ft with a backhoe, bury the logs, then semi finished compost, then return the soil on top. This gives me what I hope will be a hugelculture concept but still a fairly flat garden that can be worked with a tractor. It remains to be seen if this was a good plan or not. 

And the last, perhaps most important comment I need to make in re your posts, Mr ThomasBrownUGA, is...How 'bout them Gators!!!!


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## Paquebot

bja105 said:


> Martin, Why did you choose Beans first?


A number of reasons. One was that beans are a surface crop and the manure was relatively fresh. Also had 2 dog kennels at the time so their waste was also involved. Another was that beans were something which could handle the excess free ammonia which would be trapped and be useful rather than escape. Any other surface crop plant could also have handled it but something like peppers or tomatoes would produce excessive foliage at the expense of fruit. Second year would produce carrots which were huge and seemingly endless. 

Martin


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## Paquebot

Trench composting can't be compared to a municipal dump. Decomposition of organic matter isn't much different if it is 3' high or 3' deep. That in a pile has to rely mainly on airborne microorganisms whereas that in a trench also has soil-borne invaders from all sides as well as the top or previous exposure. With a layer of soil on top, rain or irrigation takes it down through the material and speeds up the natural process. Material breaks down faster as a result of the soil mixing with it.

Also, if one has composted for awhile, it soon becomes apparent that plants will readily grow in it as soon as it cools down to where it is warm rather than hot. There's been many stories about the huge melon or pumpkin vines which grew right out of the center. Material doesn't have to be broken down to where it is no longer recognizable in order to begin releasing its nutrients. It's basically the same material as when it started but different form. Trench composting thus has the advantage of being able to compost a lot of material while also using the same area to produce plants.

Martin


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## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> Trench composting can't be compared to a municipal dump. Decomposition of organic matter isn't much different if it is 3' high or 3' deep. That in a pile has to rely mainly on airborne microorganisms whereas that in a trench also has soil-borne invaders from all sides as well as the top or previous exposure. With a layer of soil on top, rain or irrigation takes it down through the material and speeds up the natural process. Material breaks down faster as a result of the soil mixing with it.
> 
> Also, if one has composted for awhile, it soon becomes apparent that plants will readily grow in it as soon as it cools down to where it is warm rather than hot. There's been many stories about the huge melon or pumpkin vines which grew right out of the center. Material doesn't have to be broken down to where it is no longer recognizable in order to begin releasing its nutrients. It's basically the same material as when it started but different form. Trench composting thus has the advantage of being able to compost a lot of material while also using the same area to produce plants.
> 
> Martin


sure it can, I just did. decomposition by anaerobic vs aerobic produce different results and a deep trench has to have less O2 passing thru. My compost piles, the municipal dump, and the trench have soil borne invaders. I push dirt in to my piles to inoculate with the local microbes. The dumps I'm familiar with use a foot of soil to cover the new areas each night. By law, at least in FL and VA, perhaps all states, the dump has to get a cover layer each night, but some dumps use recycled material produced by construction and demolition companies. 

I'm not knocking trench composting. As stated above, that's what I did with good results on a suburban lot. I agree it can be a space saver. However, I'm not aware of any real value in such deep trenches unless perennials will be grown there.


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## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> However, I'm not aware of any real value in such deep trenches unless perennials will be grown there.


Your answer to benefits from the depth is right here:

www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html

Martin


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## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> Your answer to benefits from the depth is right here:
> 
> www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html
> 
> Martin


informative and surprising. I had no idea a tomato had some roots 4 ft deep.


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## Forerunner

In a drought, those roots will go a lot deeper..........


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## StayPuff

Reading all of this, aerobic composting (piles) seem much easier provided you have the land to get it away from potential persnickety neighbors. I would think that trench composting would be the method of choice if you didn't have any choice. Otherwise, it sure seems like a lot of extra work. Plus, when you're composting in piles, you have the option of moving it to the location of choice when you need some. If you're trenching, it seems like you have to plan more and will be leaving it there for future plantings. You'll have none to 'go get' when you need it, unless you want to dig it back out of the hole or trench. Ummm, not me, thank you.


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## Paquebot

Trench composting does not have to involve digging wide or deep trenches. It may need only a 5-gallon hole to handle a week's worth of kitchen scraps and done anytime that the soil is not frozen. It may be done between rows or between plants. A post hole digger may be used to dig hole for the same purpose. It is less overall work than having a large pile which must be turned manually several times. A pile would only be needed for storage during winter months in the northern zones and that could be in the garden if there were no other place. Even that would not be needed if pails, bags, or trash cans were used. It's the ideal method for the gardener with limited space and material availability. If done to the depth of a 5-gallon pail, eventually one will have accomplished the equal to double-digging but just one hole at a time.

Martin


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## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> Trench composting does not have to involve digging wide or deep trenches. It may need only a 5-gallon hole to handle a week's worth of kitchen scraps and done anytime that the soil is not frozen. It may be done between rows or between plants. A post hole digger may be used to dig hole for the same purpose. It is less overall work than having a large pile which must be turned manually several times. A pile would only be needed for storage during winter months in the northern zones and that could be in the garden if there were no other place. Even that would not be needed if pails, bags, or trash cans were used. It's the ideal method for the gardener with limited space and material availability. If done to the depth of a 5-gallon pail, eventually one will have accomplished the equal to double-digging but just one hole at a time.
> 
> Martin


research has shown that pile turning is to benefit people, not compost. Turning gives you a finished product faster, but the quality is lower, especially lower if you are using the compost on perennials that prefer a higher fungi- bacteria ratio. Big piles, sadly bigger than what most suburban lot owners would find feasible, composed of variously sized pieces to facilitate O2 distribution, and multi sourced to achieve a reasonable if not perfect C:N balance, and then left alone for a year or so produces the best compost. 

And again, that isn't a knock on any other composting method; except for a few freakish and rare examples, all compost is good. There are lots of good reasons to want to process compost fast, like when the horses keep providing compost source material and you are limited in pile spaces. There are lots of good reasons to want to use a trench, like my HOA would have prohibited a big pile in my backyard. 

Available equipment is also a big factor. What you may or may not have available in terms of chipping, digging, and spreading equipment makes a huge difference in what is best for you.


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## Forerunner

Idiots.

All of yuh.

I maintain that anyone who does not follow my methodology _to the letter_ is an insufferable *buffoon*, at best, and you deserve to die _a slow and painful death_!!!















Just kidding. 

I only wanted to see what such a rant would look like, in print. :teehee:


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## CesumPec

Hu-poo score

I have been looking for months for either a cheapo dump trailer or truck. Finally picked up this one this AM and think I got it for about 25% below market, not a great deal, but one I could tolerate. 

On the way home I stopped by the village dump and picked up 9K lbs of composted hu-poo for my future orchard. The trailer will carry 7 tons, but the brakes aren't working (there is a cut wire and hopefully the seller didn't lie when he promised they work), so I was afraid to risk trying to stop a full 29k lbs (truck, trailer, and full load) with just the truck brakes. 

The dump is over 60 miles away so I can't justify the trip just for the sludge, but I have to make the drive to within 4 miles of there once a week or so regardless and will add a stop to pick up poo. 

In addition to using it in the orchard, I have not quite 4 acres piled 3 ft high with logging slash. Up till now i didn't have any N source to add to the pile to accelerate the decomposition.


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## Forerunner

Oh, yum. 

How black and granulated, even.

I wonder what that stuff would do, wet down a bit and mixed with horse stall cleanings and wood chips, plus a dead critter ever' now an' then. :shrug:


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## CesumPec

to the right of trailer is an 8 ft high pile of chips with a sprinkle of roadkill, 12 ft pile of clay, and about 50 stumps which i can't decide if I will bury or burn. Once I find the horse source, I'll set to work on answering your wonder.


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## Forerunner

I'm thinking just pile them stumps and cover with some richer material and let 'em sit for a few...... I've seen old piles of stuff at sawmills that'd set yer mouth to waterin'. 

Maybe one roadkill, three bushels of hu-poo and one commune per stump, on average, and build the pile from there. :shrug:


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## ThomasBrownUGA

Forerunner said:


> Holy cow.
> 
> âThat would be a lot of unnecessary work.
> 
> Such a configuration wouldn't drain and would likely even ferment rather than properly decompose. A simple pile, or a simple bin made from pallets or straw bales, would be much more satisfactory a setup for composting.â
> 
> 
> LittleRedHen Join Date: Apr 2006
> Location: Frozen in Michigan
> Posts: 4,332
> 
> âI had a hole on my property once. I live on sand mind you. But I tossed my leaves in there for a few years and other things. It composted and now I no longer have a hole. No issues with drainage since I live on sand. I am currently filling in a big hole with manure, hay etc and I know it will take longer to compost than if I just made a huge pile but with only a pitch fork and my overweight out of shape body, its what I can do . Within 2 years it should be nice soil specially once the worms find it (it is a 20x20 by 2-3 foot deep hole) â
> 
> 13, 03:39 PM
> StayPuff
> Waste Not, Want Not! Join Date: Nov 2012
> Location: Northern Illinois
> Posts: 67
> 
> âOuch Thomas.... no need to start a composting war. There are always different ways of doing the same thing. Like the old saying goes: 'There's more than one way to skin a cat!'.
> 
> One more note... and don't get your feathers ruffled, okay? Composting effectively, requires a constant influx of oxygen for the little organisms to thrive. True, you can still compost the way you're doing it....But, having more of the 'pile' exposed to air, rather than being in a hole where air is harder to get to and circulate, will allow the organic matter to thoroughly decompose at a faster and more consistent rate. Here is an outfit perfecting the idea of using compost heat to feed a heat exchanger. They talk about the importance of oxygen circulation: â
> 
> Paquebot Join Date: May 2002
> Location: South Central Wisconsin
> Posts: 12,857
> 
> âTrench composting for me was done out of necessity when we were raising up to 80 or more rabbits at any given time for a local market. Given a choice of using half of the garden space for a huge dung heap, trenches were dug in the garden. They were 3' deep and 3' wide and 6' to 8' or longer. The winter's accumulation of manure and bedding was packed in to ground level and mounded with about 6" of soil. First year was always beans and after that didn't matter. Eventually over 1200 square feet of garden area was at least a foot higher without adding any more real soil other than some sand to reduce compacting.â
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> Anonymooose
> Up in 'da north Join Date: Jul 2012
> Posts: 51
> 
> âThomas, I do believe that Forerunner said it would be alot of extra work, digging those trenches.
> 
> If that's the way you want to do it, then have at it. But don't attack a guy for simply giving his opinion. â
> 
> 
> Forerunner Join Date: Mar 2007
> Location: Illinois
> Posts: 6,582
> 
> âI don't mind the occasional sparks, A-Moose.
> 
> You know, they say, the best way to tell what's in a man's cup is to bump it.â
> 
> 
> 
> Possum Belly
> An Old Cowhand Join Date: Dec 2009
> Location: GA
> Posts: 1,614
> 
> ^^^^Exactly ^^^^
> 
> âWhy not start a thread on "trench composting" and enlighten us all?â
> 
> 
> CesumPec Join Date: May 2011
> Location: Central Florida
> Posts: 1,652
> 
> âI used shallow trench composting when I was still gardening in a suburban home, with no place for piled compost. My lot had had all the top soil scraped off when the house was built 20 yrs prior, and there wasn't but maybe an inch of soil on top of the clay. It worked very well to improve my garden soil, and produce a raised bed after a few years.
> 
> I'm no expert on composting, but deep trench composting sounds like to me that it is similar to running a municipal dump. Yep, everything is going to decay, but it will be oxygen deprived and tend towards methane production. That might be a great route to take if you are a dairy farmer and want to convert manure to tractor fuel. I just don't think it is an optimum way to use compost.
> 
> I disagree that piled compost does nothing for the soil below. rain goes thru the pile and leaches into the ground carrying all sorts of nutrients. That, I think, is why martin prefers bin composting, so he doesn't lose anything in processing. The same happens in trench composting, I'm just guessing but I believe nutrient loss would be worse because the deep pit would collect more water from tops and side seepage and what runs out the bottom would be too far out of the desired zone for garden annuals.
> 
> To improve soil to a useful depth, you can see prior in this thread where FR trenches and fills with finished compost. I believe that is a better alternative, but he's got lots of farm equipment others may not have, so his options might not apply to some others.
> 
> To improve my newly acquired farm, I'm clearing the garden areas and chipping everything smaller than 8 inches and stacking the larger logs. Where I will have plantings, I dig down about 3 ft with a backhoe, bury the logs, then semi finished compost, then return the soil on top. This gives me what I hope will be a hugelculture concept but still a fairly flat garden that can be worked with a tractor. It remains to be seen if this was a good plan or not.
> 
> And the last, perhaps most important comment I need to make in re your posts, Mr ThomasBrownUGA, is...How 'bout them Gators!!!! â
> 
> Paquebot Join Date: May 2002
> Location: South Central Wisconsin
> Posts: 12,857
> 
> âTrench composting can't be compared to a municipal dump. Decomposition of organic matter isn't much different if it is 3' high or 3' deep. That in a pile has to rely mainly on airborne microorganisms whereas that in a trench also has soil-borne invaders from all sides as well as the top or previous exposure. With a layer of soil on top, rain or irrigation takes it down through the material and speeds up the natural process. Material breaks down faster as a result of the soil mixing with it.
> 
> Also, if one has composted for awhile, it soon becomes apparent that plants will readily grow in it as soon as it cools down to where it is warm rather than hot. There's been many stories about the huge melon or pumpkin vines which grew right out of the center. Material doesn't have to be broken down to where it is no longer recognizable in order to begin releasing its nutrients. It's basically the same material as when it started but different form. Trench composting thus has the advantage of being able to compost a lot of material while also using the same area to produce plants.â
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> CesumPec Join Date: May 2011
> Location: Central Florida
> Posts: 1,652
> 
> âsure it can, I just did. decomposition by anaerobic vs aerobic produce different results and a deep trench has to have less O2 passing thru. My compost piles, the municipal dump, and the trench have soil borne invaders. I push dirt in to my piles to inoculate with the local microbes. The dumps I'm familiar with use a foot of soil to cover the new areas each night. By law, at least in FL and VA, perhaps all states, the dump has to get a cover layer each night, but some dumps use recycled material produced by construction and demolition companies.
> 
> I'm not knocking trench composting. As stated above, that's what I did with good results on a suburban lot. I agree it can be a space saver. However, I'm not aware of any real value in such deep trenches unless perennials will be grown there.â
> 
> Paquebot Join Date: May 2002
> Location: South Central Wisconsin
> Posts: 12,857
> 
> âYour answer to benefits from the depth is right here:â
> 
> www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> CesumPec Join Date: May 2011
> Location: Central Florida
> Posts: 1,652
> 
> âinformative and surprising. I had no idea a tomato had some roots 4 ft deep.â
> 
> 
> 
> Forerunner Join Date: Mar 2007
> Location: Illinois
> Posts: 6,582
> 
> âIn a drought, those roots will go a lot deeper..........â
> 
> 
> CesumPec Join Date: May 2011
> Location: Central Florida
> Posts: 1,652
> 
> âresearch has shown that pile turning is to benefit people, not compost. Turning gives you a finished product faster, but the quality is lower, especially lower if you are using the compost on perennials that prefer a higher fungi- bacteria ratio. Big piles, sadly bigger than what most suburban lot owners would find feasible, composed of variously sized pieces to facilitate O2 distribution, and multi sourced to achieve a reasonable if not perfect C:N balance, and then left alone for a year or so produces the best compost.
> 
> And again, that isn't a knock on any other composting method; except for a few freakish and rare examples, all compost is good. There are lots of good reasons to want to process compost fast, like when the horses keep providing compost source material and you are limited in pile spaces. There are lots of good reasons to want to use a trench, like my HOA would have prohibited a big pile in my backyard.
> 
> Available equipment is also a big factor. What you may or may not have available in terms of chipping, digging, and spreading equipment makes a huge difference in what is best for you. â



âThe roots of even a sweet potato for example penetrate far beyond this depth, however, usually to the 4-foot level and spread 14-feet in all directions easily and beyond for even the sweet potato mature plant after even just a little over 3 monthsâ time.â

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch25.html

Moreover, this thread is about composting, and includes many such methods, nor was it I who said :

Seems ok to limit discussion to anything but Trench Composting to some and to assume therefore that the now 15-feet left-to-right and 8-feet front-to-back as deep as 9-feet just outside the canopy of the Pecan Grove in the back-yard, which has by necessity become on its own divided into 3 holes over the now over a decade of successful trench composting relies upon discussing only that at the bottom of a 9-feet deep trench at some convenient points as if it is full of water when of course, that by nature is impossible.

Each year, I have to use the next space over which I removed and spread-out in my yard, donât I ? I empty the trench from 2 yearsâ prior in the 3rd year. I use that soil. The trench composting area from 1-year prior is loose and easily moved because I have to have soil to mix with the grass clippings leaf clippings and ashes from the fireplace, donât I ? Seems to be this thread is about discussing Composting other than Trench Composting ? Did I get that right ?

As for the Gators, weâve beaten them 2 years in a row, havenât we ? We ended up # 4 in the Coachesâ and # 5 in the AP Poll to Florida # 9, right ? We have Aaron Murray return for his 5th season to set all SEC Records for Quarterbacks, and remind me again who your Quarterback is 2013, either ? How Bout Them Dawgs !

Seems youâve been busy since I had started to vacate this thread forever supposedly on Composting ?

I got a private e-mail from a wonderful lady asking me. I replied and in getting that notification to my e-mail of the private e-mail herein, I thanked her for spurring me back. Perhaps youâd prefer she hadnât happy in the ignorance that only putting up trashy-looking cheap wooden structures with wire-mesh or piling only on-top of the ground with smelly stench reeking the only defensible composting method.

Obviously, I have air at the top-layers of the pile. Obviously too, I have in year 2 to get slightly mature composting material to put on the new pile in year 3, right ? Obviously, I use the soil and have described it, have I not ?

Hole A â Year 1
Hole B â Year 2
Hole C â Year 3

Dig Hole A B C. I said myself not someone else how much exercise I got digging-out with a top-grade shovel pick and axe to begin with, over a decade ago it was Hole A. I longed many days for equipment, and were I flush, I would have purchased equipment to do it, or even rented it. I did what I could in a day. I got back to it when I could. I am here. I have them dug.

I dug in fact Hole A only. I filled it up that Summer and enjoyed the leaves that Fall. I dug Hole B in year 2. Again, good exercise done on my timetable. Hole A was not completely ready to spread-out. I needed dirt layers in Hole B. I took it from Hole A. Year 3, I had the Hole A and the Hole B full. I dug an addition to be Hole C. I placed the dirt upon Hole B. And, the top soil on Hole A. I filed up Hole C in Year 3. Near the beginning of Year 4, I began to dig out Hole A. I spread the astounding soil throughout the yard that Spring. Any which was not the best soil, I put on Hole B, as it seemed the Holes indeed grew on their own out of necessity. 

Each year since, Iâve spread out the soil from the oldest pile, piled high above the ground, as high as you pile compost in the only approved methods allowed discussed herein.

I dig it up easily now, each Spring. By the time grass starts to grow, Iâve got the hole empty and the nitrogen-rich soil spread out for fertilizer, filling bare spots, re-routing water away from my home, covering roots near the several Pecan Trees in the front yard, and more around those in the backyard. I made the flower beds. I lessened the severity of the steep hill, too steep to cut sideways. 

I do so apologize my efforts are not to your liking, that is other than the ridicule provided immediately upon my sharing of what I and many others worldwide already knew, that it works and works well.

I believe what Forerunner said was :



Forerunner said:


> Holy cow.
> 
> âThat would be a lot of unnecessary work.
> 
> Such a configuration wouldn't drain and would likely even ferment rather than properly decompose. A simple pile, or a simple bin made from pallets or straw bales, would be much more satisfactory a setup for composting.â


I, of course, believe that over-the-top, if allowed to point out the simple truth that, not I, started it with a but a simple question :



ThomasBrownUGA said:


> Can I just dig a 6 foot circular hole 6 feet deep and throw my grass cuttings and leaves after I cut them up too with microcut double-blade mower, and throw some dirt in there from time to time too, to compost ? Thank you.



The answer to which weâve now looked at herein, and determined it I somehow who started it, and that the thread itself is not suited therefore for discussion of Composting, but only then bins and piles upon the earth would properly drain and decompose.

That is what is said.

âThere are always different ways of doing the same thing. Like the old saying goes: 'There's more than one way to skin a cat!'.â

Of course, unless, the thread forever ruined by asking such an innocent question as : Hey, what about Trench Composting ?

Silly me.

Air of necessity fills any void. Voids are large or voids are small. Voids above ground or voids below. Aeration is not looking upon a pile 3 years later as if it only then is as it was therefore always every day prior. Surely, everyone sees the aeration upon just flinging a poor manâs lawnmowerâs clippings upon a pile above or below. Do pardon me so for so offering humbly, as was provided upon my initial post to this thread and the immediate full and complete rebuke accompanied with eeks and Holy Cows and it would not drain and would not decompose, and Only :

âA simple pile, or a simple bin made from pallets or straw bales, would be much more satisfactory a setup for composting.â

And, even : 

âWhy not start a thread on "trench composting" and enlighten us all?â

Sorry to ask the humble question herein on www.homesteadingtoday.com

Why not change the name of the thread from COMPOSTING to Composting only if no discussion of Trench Composting is offered up at all by anyone for any reason, even to ask humbly, can I ?

And, if the soil so improved under a pile, why not dig down 9 feet under where you have your piles above ground all these years, and look ? Or, study the study of simple sweet potatoes and their 4-foot level. I believe were you to look 4-feet beneath a simple old-fashioned pile upon only this earth, that you will find your dirt there at the 4-foot level completely unchanged from prior to your only approved method of composting along with yet another unsightly bin with wire-mesh above the ground, also doing nothing at the 4-foot level beneath it.

But, what do I know ?

Other than of course, Iâve dug 4-feet and a lot more and you ?

Discarded the entire concept out-of-hand, despite even such as :

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-basics-of-pit-or-trench-composting.html

______________________________
The National Gardening Association
______________________________

despite such revelations as even :

âinformative and surprising. I had no idea a tomato had some roots 4 ft deep.â 

and, 

âIn a drought, those roots will go a lot deeper..........â 

and, 

âresearch has shown that pile turning is to benefit people, not compost. Turning gives you a finished product faster, but the quality is lower, especially lower if you are using the compost on perennials that prefer a higher fungi- bacteria ratio. And again, that isn't a knock on any other composting method; except for a few freakish and rare examples, all compost is good. There are lots of good reasons to want to process compost fast, like when the horses keep providing compost source material and you are limited in pile spaces. There are lots of good reasons to want to use a trench, like my HOA would have prohibited a big pile in my backyard.â

And, frankly it would not matter if there indeed any benefit from any humble question.

After all, this thread is Composting and that eeks Holy Cow does not include cannot drain and would not decompose Trench Composting, which must then therefore be its own separate thread, not a part of Compost Thread at : www.homesteadingtoday.com

Thanking you kindly for answering my humble question so openly and warmly.


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## Forerunner

The thread title is "extreme composting", and your method fits that description.

It wasn't I who told you to go start another thread, but a forum participant who recognized a little angst on your part.

Sounds to me like you've got an axe to grind, and it sure didn't take much to get through that paper-thin skin of yours.

It took me a little time, myself, once online, to learn to roll with the punches, and to be able to see beyond the typed word and into the real intent of the poster.

I have lots of hope for you, yet. :thumb:


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## CesumPec

Wow-o-freaking-wow. 

Can you compost thin skins?


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## Forerunner

Sure yuh can.

They just don't have quite the protein/nitrogen value of the thick ones. :shrug:


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## Studhauler

What is the best way to add compost to an existing lilac hedge that was planted in poor soil? The plants are about knee high.

Wanting to plant some apple trees this spring but I don't have much compost ready. Would I be better off waiting one more year and planting the trees in deep compost?

Thanks


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> The thread title is "extreme composting", and your method fits that description.
> 
> It wasn't I who told you to go start another thread, but a forum participant who recognized a little angst on your part.
> 
> Sounds to me like you've got an axe to grind, and it sure didn't take much to get through that paper-thin skin of yours.
> 
> It took me a little time, myself, once online, to learn to roll with the punches, and to be able to see beyond the typed word and into the real intent of the poster.
> 
> I have lots of hope for you, yet. :thumb:


Ah jus part o de pleasure dat makes er fun.


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## CesumPec

Thomas - I just wrote you a long post that the ether ate. short version - we all compost differently due to our own circumstances, some of us like to campaign for our preferred methods, but all composting is good. don't sweat it. Just come post about compost and enjoy the process along with the rest of us. No one here meant to give offense.


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## Forerunner

Stud-H...... you could side dress or lightly hoe and thus incorporate good compost around those lilacs. ....Or, you could dig a deep trench all the way around each bush and fill the trenches with a good balance of composting materials.

I understand that trench composting is all the rage, these days. :bouncy:

For those apples, what I did was dig deeper than I needed to, and mix some of the native soil with compost, a little wood ash, some bone meal, a rotten egg or two, and a random spot of roadkill.

Do you remember the story of jack and the beanstalk ? 

If you don't have finished material, either wait, or root the tree into mostly native material with the raw compostables surrounding, so they'll be more broken down when the roots reach them.


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## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> I understand that trench composting is all the rage, these days. :bouncy:


LOL

If I had finished compost to use as back fill, how big of hole should I dig to plant trees in?



CesumPec, Nice trailer, never saw a dump trailer with triples, nice find.


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## Oswego

War Eagle

I used a dozier three years ago to clean up some property where my ponds are. I scraped off all the small brush and small trees so I could bushhog the rest. I left all the large trees standing. It was in the late spring/early summer so I had a lot of "green" in the three 12 foot high piles/20 feet diameter. I have not touched them since.
I am going to check them tomorrow with shovel and pitchfork to see if they are ready to "harvest". If they have had time to turn to compost then I'll go back later(few weeks) with loader bucket and trailer to bring back to the house and my garden.
I'll report back tomorrow with what I find in the piles.

Maybe the "trench warfare" will be over by then. I agree with forerunner that to participate on internet forums both sides of an issue have to be careful not to take things personal.


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## Forerunner

Stud-H.....I dug mine about 3x3x3 feet.....and they were fairly small trees.....three or four feet tall.


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## Idum

I just planted some peach trees in mounds about three feet tall. I'm in the edges of a swamp and peaches don't like their feet wet.

I started with a layer of half rotted wood, made a hollow cone over that with topsoil, filled the center with a load of compost and planted the tree in the middle.

Kinda the opposite of trenching. 

BTW ThomasBrown, Great rant. Seriously, I enjoyed the read.


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## Forerunner

You seem to have some degree of experience in trench composting, Thomas.

I, for one, would like to hear more about it, as I've never made use of this approach and would be delighted to have further opportunity to explore it's possibilities.


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## Oswego

"Should we take a Survey : Are these meant to give offense ?"

NO

In fact we should drop it, survey would just divide folks on the best thread ever on any subject.
I have a hole that I had planned to build a water feature in but now that I am into composting I might start putting all my grass clippings, etc in as another place to build a compost pile. Its 3 feet deep and 20 ft diameter. It never gets standing water unless we get 4 or more inches in a very short time, which we got Sunday night and Monday morning (8 inches).


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## Oswego

Well two of my three year old piles from cleaning up my property were smaller but still just limbs etc. The third one I had mixed some topsoil into it as I had scraped the surface of small vegetation. That one had composted very well. So well that I will have to use tractor to remove small trees that are growing out of it.
The soil in it is either black or black mixed with brown and very soft and humus. The large original pile has been reduced to about three to four feet high(from 12). This wil be a great start to building my raised beds for this years garden expansion along with my compost pile started last year.


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## Copperhead

After 10 long years, and a few repair bills, my wife made me get a new truck. Instead of the classic wooden racks, a friend helped me fabricate a metal cattle rack. Of course, one of the design specifications was that I had to be able to get the most carbon that $20 could buy at the local sawmill. :nanner:


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## bja105

Copperhead said:


> Of course, one of the design specifications was that I had to be able to get the most carbon that $20 could buy at the local sawmill. :nanner:


What is in the truck? It looks too coarse to be sawdust, and too fine to be edgings. Does your mill have a shredder thingy?

I have a sawmill next door, and one going in across the street. Both guys owe me favors, and I can have all the sawdust, edgings, and slabwood I want. I want all of the sawdust, but I only have a garden tractor, a cart, and a shovel. Soon I will be getting a tractor with a loader, and maybe a build bigger trailer.
I don't have a specific plan for the edgings, other than dumping them in a pile to rot. The sawyer said if I had forks, he could bundle the edgings for me.
Any suggestions are welcome.


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## Copperhead

The sawmill has a drum ripper that they use to debark the locust logs for split rail fencing. I really like locust bark as it is super absorbent and breaks down in about 3 months. When they run out of locust, they start using pine. Because the pine is softer, the drum ripper gets into the wood. 

I end up with a truck load of splinters when they are barking pine. They may be 6 or 8 inches long and upto an inch wide, but as a rule they are about 1/8th of an inch thick. Take longer to break down completely, but they doa better job of keeping the animals out of the mud -- which has been a problem this year. So far, we've had 130 inches of snow, but it completely melts and gets muddy about once a week!


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## Forerunner

Chunk carbon is the mud-dwellers salvation. :bow:


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## CesumPec

Copperhead said:


> After 10 long years, and a few repair bills, my wife made me get a new truck.


Ahem - the wife MADE you get a new truck? I'm throwing the adult male cattle droppings flag. :teehee:

Congrats on the truck and the saw mill score. I don't have your mud problem, I have a sugar sand problem. it is amazing how good chips are at fixing all sorts of problems. A couple of inches of chips on the sand and it is almost like driving on asphalt. The roads completely stood up to all my abuse...until the 70K lb logging trucks made about 100 passes.


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## Copperhead

Well . . . I really did have the truck for 10 years, and I was kinda hard on it . . . and the price of repairs was starting to approach the price of a new(er) truck payment. A buddy from work asked what that fine piece of metal roofing ever did to me when I riveted and bondo'd it to my fender well to pass another inspection.

I thought about getting some spray paint and writing "FARM USE" on the side, but then I was afraid my wife would want me to paint the rest of the truck . . .:nono:

Besides, as you see, I really did need a newer, bigger, stronger diesel :lookout:


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## Forerunner

I miss my tandem axle dump truck. :sob:


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## Studhauler

I passed up some nice roadkill toady :shocked: I didn't have the hart to chase a bald eagle off of it. :thumb: I did bring home a small dear this weekend, I was surprised to see my compost pile # 4 had shrunk considerably. This was the pile that was frozen and fill with to much dirt. I did put a dear in it about two months ago, that is what brought it to life.


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## Forerunner

Now, see, S-Hauler. to me, a "Dear', would be an affectionate significant other, which, if that is what you are referring to, causes me no small degree of alarm. 

But, if it is a roadkill _deer_ that you brought home to compost, then all is well and good. :thumb:


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## Studhauler

I never claim to be good speller, but I should have caught that one. I will not edit it so the thread flows well, or should that be flows well, oh gees, now I am all flustered. 

You have abbreviation for my username, I have tried to come up with an abbreviation to put on my licenses plate (or is that plait) but all I could come up with is STDHULR


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## am1too

How far would anyone here go to pick up composted horse manure with not race horse drugs in it?


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## Trisha in WA

I go right out next to the barn for composted horse manure.


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## CesumPec

am1too said:


> How far would anyone here go to pick up composted horse manure with not race horse drugs in it?


For me it is always a question of economics and time. I get about 10 MPG on diesel when hauling a heavy load. How much manure is at the end of the drive and will it be loaded for me. 

Years ago when I had a Mazda pick up and had to load it by hand, I would get a load or two every month. It was only 5 miles away. Once they got a tractor and would load the truck for me, I would get a load or two each week. 

With my dump trailer, I'm driving over 60 miles each way to pick up 6 - 7 tons of sludge and the trailer gets filled by a big loader in two scoops. I can't justify that drive for fuel costs or time unless I have to make the trip for some other reason as well.


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## Forerunner

My experience has been, when I am invited to make use of material too far away to be economical, I encourage the other party to make use of it, themselves, or find a more local extremist who might be interested.
Sometimes, I am able to assist in finding that local extremist.


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> My experience has been, when I am invited to make use of material too far away to be economical, I encourage the other party to make use of it, themselves, or find a more local extremist who might be interested.
> Sometimes, I am able to assist in finding that local extremist.


So what is to far to be econimical for you?


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## Forerunner

Anything over 15 miles is getting out there.

Now if a free and somewhat consistent source of dry carbon were to manifest itself, I would pay a semi to make several trips per month.......


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## superduty5.9

Wow. What a read. It took me 3 1/2 weeks of reading at work to get to the present of this great thread. I think this is probably the best, most imformative, entertaining topic I've read to date. I have been doing a very small scale composting for about 10 years now. I've always had a fairly big garden. Helped dad when I was a kid with his garden. My 3 kids love to help and sometimes the wife too. When we move to our new house this month I will be forced to do more of an extreme approach! Thanks FR, Mudburn, ect. Ya'll rubbing off on me. Last year I started diluting urine and putting on the ground around my maters and it was the best mater patch I've had yet. My oldest son and I built some triangle mater cages out of concrete mesh. They were 5' tall and those urine lovin maters grew up the 5' cage and down another 3-4' over the sides.

Just a side note. I worked for a company for a short time between jobs. He had a contract to go to local Kroger food stores. They had a big dumpster behind the stores to put in all their organic waste such as produce, dead plants, flowers ect. I drove a big Mack front load trash truck. The kind with front forks. I would go to Krogers all over the state of Ohio. We had one dump site in northern Ohio near Sandusky and one in Columbus. The truck would hold about 12-15 ton before dumping. These sites would charge by the ton usually around $100-250 for tipping fees. They would also take in cardboard scrap and shredded paper from those secure shred companies. They would grind and windrow these to compost. Then sell the finished product for big $.

Anyways nice to be here!


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## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Super. 

Sounds like you know the ropes pretty good, already.

Once you get up and runnin' with that extreme thing.....we sure do like pitchers in this here thread. :thumb:


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## CesumPec

Man oh man I would love to get one or a hundred of those veggie waste trucks dumped on the farm.


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## Studhauler

Now, see F-Runner; to me a "pitcher" would be an instrument for holding water, which, if that is what you are referring to, causes me no small degree of amassment, because loading a three dimensional object onto the internet would be an amazing feat.


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## Mickey

Welcome Super  I was going to tell you to pay no mind to Mr Poopman's talk about "communing", but I see he's already got to ya. :sob:


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## Forerunner

:grin:

See, Stud-H.....yuh just need a little imagination, is all. :grouphug:


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## bja105

Our farm, that we only visit weekends, is next door to a sawmill, and another is going up across the road. Both neighbors are friends and will let me have all I want.
The one neighbor and I both have thin hay. We have soil tests sent out, waiting on results.
Is there a faster way to use the sawdust to help the field?
Our assets include a Cub Cadet with a little dump cart, a horse drawn wagon, a horse drawn manure spreader, shovels, and teenage boys. Also 275 gallons of Tide that smells like it is already breaking down.

I have a horse buried in a pile now, but that pile started yesterday and won't help this year's hay.
I am not opposed to cheating by mixing some urea with the sawdust. 
Ideas?


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## Forerunner

If I had a hay field and sawdust, I'd apply a half inch, to an inch of that sawdust, after each cutting, and let the mulching effect do what it can while the sawdust breaks down.

The ground that I have heavily sawdusted as an experiment is some of the richest and most friable soil on the place. In fact, when I sow wheat or rye, that ground sports the fastest and most uniform germination.

Over time.......with gentle sawdust applications and, later when you have the material, a little compost to go with, you'll see green and drought resistance like you've never.

Somewhere in this thread I posted a pic of my alfalfa, last time I grew it.

That pic still inspires even me !


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## Forerunner

Found it......... I'm due to grow alfalfa again. It's been too long.


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## CesumPec

I like the idea of spreading the sawdust on the hay field but won't it need a shot of N? My soil tests just came back and they varied the recommendations based on the field being grazed or hayed. For hay they wanted a heavy application of N and that sawdust is going to be binding up N for the first year or two.


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## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I like the idea of spreading the sawdust on the hay field but won't it need a shot of N? My soil tests just came back and they varied the recommendations based on the field being grazed or hayed. For hay they wanted a heavy application of N and that sawdust is going to be binding up N for the first year or two.


My understanding is that what lays on top of the soil will not bind the soil. The worms however will eat it when it becomes wet. Sawdust is one of the items used in worm bedding. If you mix it into the soil it would bind the nitrogen. I could be wrong.


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## Anonymooose

I think you're right, Am1too. We garden with a layer of wood chip mulch, and only get N deficit when the chips are mixed with soil.


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## CesumPec

I have read all sorts of books on composting but this thread keeps teaching me more. Thanks am1too.


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## Forerunner

Cesum, I am appalled.

Don't yuh trust me ?



:sob:


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## bja105

I think I will be using the sawdust as mulch in part of the garden, too. I might try to hill some potatoes with sawdust, too. Think it will work?


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## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> Cesum, I am appalled.
> 
> Don't yuh trust me ?
> 
> 
> 
> :sob:


Ronald Reagan's fave Russian proverb? Trust, but verify. And clearly, am1too is more trust worthy than you. Everyone knows that you deal in ...ummm...manure by the truck load. 

:rock:


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## Anonymooose

bja105 said:


> I think I will be using the sawdust as mulch in part of the garden, too. I might try to hill some potatoes with sawdust, too. Think it will work?


We planted our potatoes in wood chips last year. Actually, we planted them in a little hole (with soil), and then kept hilling them with coarse chips. They didn't need much watering. I would think sawdust would be similar?


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## bja105

What are you doing with those chips for this year? Pulling them aside to mulch again, or tilling them under?


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## Forerunner

I might hesitate to plant my potatoes directly in sawdust.

I can see how laying them in shallowish dirt rows and then covering with wood chips might be a good thing. Straight sawdust might just suck up a bit much nitrogen from straight soil, in that application. The sawdust, being finer, offers more surface area to bind N, whereas the coarseness of the wood chips prevents them binding N quite so vigorously.

I wouldn't be too afraid to lay an inch or so of sawdust or chips between my garden rows, though I might hold off from so mulching my heavy N feeders, such as corn.....

In that hay field, there is already a layer of partially rotted and rotting humus to buffer the N-sucking effect of the sawdust from the soil. Also, half an inch to an inch is somewhat minimal to begin with......and, if you have legumes already growing as your hay crop, they will contribute N to the equation.

I read somewhere that the general rule is, if you remove X tons of hay per acre/per year, replace with X tons of organic matter, each year, to compensate.
That can be done in any of several ways, but I prefer the extremes, and I simply multiply X by a hundred, or so, every couple of years, to be safe, while technology makes that possible.

I'm goofy, that way......or so they tell me. :shrug:


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## CesumPec

while we are talking about pastures and compost...

I have a section of old pasture that is more or less an acre of grape vines. I've been vigorously mowing it for 2 years but it doesn't seem to be dieing back, in fact the patch seems to be getting larger. The local extension and few local farmers i know have one recommendation, Roundup. I'm not religiously against Roundup, but I'm trying to see if I can deal with things organically. 

What do you think of several inches of wood chips covering the whole area? That would be a big, time consuming job and grape vines are awfully tough to kill. Maybe fire the area first? Any other ideas?


----------



## Anonymooose

bja105 said:


> What are you doing with those chips for this year? Pulling them aside to mulch again, or tilling them under?


We don't till. We will be pulling back the chips to the soil level with a garden rake, planting, and then tucking the chips back around the plants as they grow. 

We did it just like FR said, and just planted in shallow dirt rows. The kids went along and helped dig a little hole with their trowels.


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## Forerunner

Cesum.....for long term, I'm-in-no-hurry results and overall soil improvement, a thick layer of chips would slow those vines down, especially after burning.

I'm trying to envision such a patch of vines. Are they laying on the ground, or is there something for them to climb ?

Goats ?

Disc and ripper ?

Trellis them up and open a winery ?


----------



## CesumPec

Unfortunately, I've never seen any grapes on the grapes else I would be inclined to keep them and teach them some manners. On the edges of the area are a few trees that were covered with the vines when I first bought the place. I cut the vines at the ground around the trees, let them die, then pulled them from the trees months later.

The field of vines, prior to mowing, was just a 3 or 4 ft high mass of jumbled mess, all growing on top of one another. I mow them down to ~6 inches and they leaf out beautifully again. I think the goat idea is best, it will just have to wait a year or so till I'm ready to be on the farm full time and my fences are in place.


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## Forerunner

Talk about self-inflicting organic mass incorporation ! 

I'd get a disc and have a good old time, every couple of weeks. :bouncy:

Refresh my perspective, do you have a tractor, yet.....preferably with a loader ?


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> Talk about self-inflicting organic mass incorporation !
> 
> I'd get a disc and have a good old time, every couple of weeks. :bouncy:
> 
> Refresh my perspective, do you have a tractor, yet.....preferably with a loader ?


I have a JCB 214 loader/hoe and could use the root rake to tear up most of the grape area, but i wouldn't want to get too close to the tree roots. I do have a small 30 HP Kubota that I borrow from a neighbor on occasion but it won't pull the disk I pickup up cheap at auction. 

I'm close to buying a new Kubota M7040. Have been looking for a year for something used in the 100 hp range but in all cases, the ones I found that were worth buying were too expensive. I bid on several at auction but they all sold significantly more than i was willing to pay. I had to admit that my expectations are not in alignment with the market. So I started looking at new.


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## am1too

bja105 said:


> I think I will be using the sawdust as mulch in part of the garden, too. I might try to hill some potatoes with sawdust, too. Think it will work?


Now that I think I would shy away from.


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## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Ronald Reagan's fave Russian proverb? Trust, but verify. And clearly, am1too is more trust worthy than you. Everyone knows that you deal in ...ummm...manure by the truck load.
> 
> :rock:


I just do not have much truck and do not get as much manure. (well at a time):grin:


----------



## Paquebot

bja105 said:


> I think I will be using the sawdust as mulch in part of the garden, too. I might try to hill some potatoes with sawdust, too. Think it will work?


Mix it 50/50 with soil so that it doesn't dry out too much. Although the sawdust would be almost totally lacking in NPK, it's no factor since there would be no plant roots in the in the hilled area.

Martin


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## Forerunner

Martin, for one who consistently demonizes the use of sawdust in the garden, I'm intrigued that you so readily recommend mixing it 50/50 with the soil, under any circumstance, merely for the sake of making an argument.

:thumb:

Go get 'em, Tiger.


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## StayPuff

Paquebot said:


> Mix it 50/50 with soil so that it doesn't dry out too much. Although the sawdust would be almost totally lacking in NPK, it's no factor since there would be no plant roots in the in the hilled area.
> 
> Martin


WOW! I've missed some really good times since I was away for a while.

Martin I have grown potatoes by the acre, not just rows, when I was in my teenage years. And although I might be wrong, the whole idea of hilling potatoes with more soil is to move the root line of the potato plant up to get more potatoes. So, I think hilling potatoes with a 50/50 blend of soil and sawdust would slow the growth of the potato plant quite a bit. I could be wrong though. I would wait until the hills are the height that are desired, pull any large weeds, then put sawdust on TOP of the soil around the plants. If I'm wrong here, someone please use their experienced knowledge to correct me.


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## dablack

Ok, it is finally time for me to jump in on the fun. Down in houston we had the old compost bin made of pallets that had the yard grass and oak leaves. Made lots of good stuff in there, but we aren't in Houston anymore! 

We are currently building a house ourselves near Rusk, TX. We have 30 acres and about half of it is wooded, the rest is mixed pines and pasture. The pasture has had hay taken from it for many years and the top soil is very thin. If you are familiar with the Rusk area, it is VERY hilly and my land is not an exception. We have lots of dead pine from last year's drought. 

Most of the soil is red clay and iron ore rocks. Basically, what I'm thinking right now is taking some of the large dead and rotting pines and putting them in low areas between the hills. This is only a five or six foot elevation change between the top of the hill to the lows between them. Then covering them with some dirt. This seems like........wait for it.......trench composting or......wait.......wait......hugelkultur. I would eventually like to plant fruit trees along this natural trench. We will also be doing raised beds in different sunny area. 

Equipment: Kubota B2620 (26hp and FEL), PTO post hole digger, PTO chipper (6" max), and four kids. 

There is no way I could chip up these trees and build a compost pile. Most of these pines are 18" across and then one or two are 36" across. 

thoughts?

thanks
Austin


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## StayPuff

Forerunner... Got a question for ya.

Just took my hogs to the locker this morning, and since I'm getting into the large composting pile club (sorry trenchers), I have about a 15 x 60 foot area of hog poo, 4-5 inches thick, sitting on top of a deep layer of lime. I want to scrap off the dung and incorporate it into my wood mulch pile to get it "going". Does the pig dung have a huge amount of N in it? Or will I be making a huge mess/mistake. I've never composted hog dung before, so thought I'd better ask. Thanks!


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## StayPuff

dablack said:


> Ok, it is finally time for me to jump in on the fun. Down in houston we had the old compost bin made of pallets that had the yard grass and oak leaves. Made lots of good stuff in there, but we aren't in Houston anymore!
> 
> We are currently building a house ourselves near Rusk, TX. We have 30 acres and about half of it is wooded, the rest is mixed pines and pasture. The pasture has had hay taken from it for many years and the top soil is very thin. If you are familiar with the Rusk area, it is VERY hilly and my land is not an exception. We have lots of dead pine from last year's drought.
> 
> Most of the soil is red clay and iron ore rocks. Basically, what I'm thinking right now is taking some of the large dead and rotting pines and putting them in low areas between the hills. This is only a five or six foot elevation change between the top of the hill to the lows between them. Then covering them with some dirt. This seems like........wait for it.......trench composting or......wait.......wait......hugelkultur. I would eventually like to plant fruit trees along this natural trench. We will also be doing raised beds in different sunny area.
> 
> Equipment: Kubota B2620 (26hp and FEL), PTO post hole digger, PTO chipper (6" max), and four kids.
> 
> There is no way I could chip up these trees and build a compost pile. Most of these pines are 18" across and then one or two are 36" across.
> 
> thoughts?
> 
> thanks
> Austin


Wow.... nice area for sure. Not sure if you want to make some money with cattle or not. But if I owned that, I'd put high-tensil electrified fence around it, buy some South Poll breed cows, and go into serious high density grazing mode to let the cows do the work of rebuilding the topsoil. They'll do it pretty fast too, if you're there everyday working it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'll let Greg Judy explain it. Watch the whole presentation if you can. You will learn a ton! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HGKSvjk5Q

I'm not kidding though. That's exactly what I would do with that property. You have just enough land to do it.


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## Forerunner

StayPuff.....that hog manure will go *GREAT* with wood/anything. 

DaBlack........ your hugelkultur idea sounds as reasonable as any....and, at least you don't have to dig any trenches.

Good folks who are compelled to dig a trench just to build a compost pile have got all of my sympathy.

Besides all that, you have got one _beautiful_ chunk of Texas to work with. :thumb:


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## CesumPec

DaBlack - any way you can get someone to log the big trees? You keep and chip the limbs. In my area, small scale saw mills will go 50/50 on sawn lumber. Costs you nothing but half your wood. If you preferred, forego the chipping and use the limbs in your hugelculture trench.


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## CesumPec

StayPuff said:


> Forerunner... Got a question for ya.
> 
> Just took my hogs to the locker this morning, and since I'm getting into the large composting pile club (sorry trenchers), I have about a 15 x 60 foot area of hog poo, 4-5 inches thick, sitting on top of a deep layer of lime. I want to scrap off the dung and incorporate it into my wood mulch pile to get it "going". Does the pig dung have a huge amount of N in it? Or will I be making a huge mess/mistake. I've never composted hog dung before, so thought I'd better ask. Thanks!


Pig poo good stuff - depending on how much mulch you have. In my limited experience, it is going to stink up a storm when you move it to the wood. Can you bring the mulch and mix and cover where it sits? 

A foot, or two if they are big chips, of mulch will absorb the stink. So that should keep the fam happy.


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## StayPuff

Forerunner said:


> StayPuff.....that hog manure will go *GREAT* with wood/anything.


Awesome. That's good! What mixing ratio do you think would be okay. The tree mulch (leaves in it too) is a year old now. Would like to stretch the dung as far as possible in my mixing to make the most of it. Just enough to get maximum conversion without turning or adding more N later.


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## StayPuff

CesumPec said:


> Pig poo good stuff - depending on how much mulch you have. In my limited experience, it is going to stink up a storm when you move it to the wood. Can you bring the mulch and mix and cover where it sits?
> 
> A foot, or two if they are big chips, of mulch will absorb the stink. So that should keep the fam happy.


Got LOTS of mulch. I think somewhere around 25 dump loads right now. (Came from a local tree service that gives me all I want for free) Can't move the pile to the dung though. Gotta move the poo to the pile. Need to get that area ready for hogs next fall. Stink?? OH YEA.. no doubt about that. Right now it's frozen poo-ice, so not stinking now.....BUT that will definitely change as thawing comes. I will be mixing it into the pile as soon as I can get it off of the lime to get rid of it before it gets too warm. Just thinking of that makes my eyes water! Also, the tractor WILL be getting a bath after that job. :yuck:


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## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> Martin, for one who consistently demonizes the use of sawdust in the garden, I'm intrigued that you so readily recommend mixing it 50/50 with the soil, under any circumstance, merely for the sake of making an argument.


Your memory fails you! Never have I come out against using sawdust or other non-soil products when hilling potatoes. Especially since I have been recommending it for a number of years and probably before you became a member. HT threads are now available back a number of years in case you wish to look them up for specific applications. And since I've been using that method before HT, you might have to go back to the old Countryside forum to find the first instance of sharing that information.



StayPuff said:


> WOW! I've missed some really good times since I was away for a while.
> 
> Martin I have grown potatoes by the acre, not just rows, when I was in my teenage years. And although I might be wrong, the whole idea of hilling potatoes with more soil is to move the root line of the potato plant up to get more potatoes. So, I think hilling potatoes with a 50/50 blend of soil and sawdust would slow the growth of the potato plant quite a bit. I could be wrong though. I would wait until the hills are the height that are desired, pull any large weeds, then put sawdust on TOP of the soil around the plants. If I'm wrong here, someone please use their experienced knowledge to correct me.


You have been informed wrong. As you no doubt already are aware, there are many who grow their potatoes under hay, straw, or similar non-soil mediums. The seed potato piece doesn't even have to be buried but merely laid on or pressed into a prepared soil and covered with the other medium. That allows gardeners with high pH soils to grow scab-free potatoes since the tubers develop in the other medium above the infected soil. 

With rare exception, you will never find a potato root above the seed piece. What forms above the piece are modified branches called stolons. Although they are underground, they are not roots and they are only formed below the surface on a short section of the stem. If done properly, what one does when hilling is cause that section to elongate and form additional stolons and create a production zone of at least 6". (That's the idea behind growing potatoes in barrels or stacked tires.) If not hilled, all of the tubers would be formed in an area of perhaps a few inches. Not only would there potentially be less tubers but they would be subject to turning green from exposure to sunlight.

Martin


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## bja105

Thanks for the help, folks.

If anyone has any more input, I'll take it. I have lots of sawdust, and I want to improve my garden, thin hay fields, and reclaimed strip mine growing grass.


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## Forerunner

StayPuff.....I envy your situation, for the moment.

If you want to stretch that golden poo, you're in an excellent position to do so.

You could estimate your percentages and mix the hog manure so as to use up all of your available wood chips (especially since they are a year old and contain the leafy matter, to boot) and likely come out with a screaming winner of a final product.
Let it sit six months or longer, after mixing, and then prepare to _formally_ join the ranks of the Extremists! :bouncy:


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## Forerunner

Bja....you're in a good way, too, with unlimited sawdust.

Gentle and consistent applications of that stuff to existing grass and hay ground will take you where you want to be. The atmosphere, rains and existing soil flora/fauna will give you the N and the micro-nutrients and enzymes that you need to compliment the sawdust.


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## StayPuff

Paquebot said:


> You have been informed wrong. As you no doubt already are aware, there are many who grow their potatoes under hay, straw, or similar non-soil mediums. The seed potato piece doesn't even have to be buried but merely laid on or pressed into a prepared soil and covered with the other medium. That allows gardeners with high pH soils to grow scab-free potatoes since the tubers develop in the other medium above the infected soil.
> 
> With rare exception, you will never find a potato root above the seed piece. What forms above the piece are modified branches called stolons. Although they are underground, they are not roots and they are only formed below the surface on a short section of the stem. If done properly, what one does when hilling is cause that section to elongate and form additional stolons and create a production zone of at least 6". (That's the idea behind growing potatoes in barrels or stacked tires.) If not hilled, all of the tubers would be formed in an area of perhaps a few inches. Not only would there potentially be less tubers but they would be subject to turning green from exposure to sunlight.
> 
> Martin


Ok, I can go with most of that. (Yes, I know what stolons are) However though, you can only grow potatoes in straw or hay bales if you add manure or rich mulch onto the top of the bales. The rain incorporates the nutrients and nitrogen into the bale for the potato plant to eat. Since Irish potatoes are of the nightshade family, they don't need much nitrogen to feed them. (We want potatoes, not humongous dark green bushes, right) This is why the straw bale idea works. 

Also, are you saying that the potato plant doesn't feed on nutrients above the seed potato 'line'? From my experience, potato stolons can either create modified stolons (the potatoes that we eat, that store nutrients) OR they can produce new stems on the end of a stolen, making another potato plant. I know this because we would see new plants emerge between the mother plants. There are many ways of doing things, and you can definitely do it the way you say, but you are really doing yourself a disservice if you don't use soil to hill your potatoes. The stolons that create new potato shoots at their ends, will need nutrients to grow, and so by hilling up the potato plant, you are theoretically raising the root line. That's the way I looked at it. Sure, you can definitely place a cut seed potato directly on top of the soil, and 'hill' with nothing more than straw or sawdust, but in my experience this will yield the least amount of 'taters. If you hill with soil, you will make not only more potatoes, but more potato plants that make potatoes too.

This is the method we used. Keep in mind, I grew up in the southern most area of Illinois, where the soil is red, and very little topsoil exists naturally. In the Fall, we would manure the field with all of our horse, mule, goat, rabbit, and cow dung. (I grew up on a self-sustaining homestead) After about a week, we would then plow it in using a 3-abreast mule-mule-belgium team with a 16" single-bottom plow. We would leave it alone that way through the winter. Before planting potatoes the next spring, we would then disc it down, really GOOD. Then using a string to keep the rows in line, we would hill the soil with concrete hoes about 12 inches high, and the rows about 48" apart. We would flatten the top of the hill to about a 4" width. While we were doing this, Mom and Grandpa would be cutting the seed potatoes and throwing them into the back of the pickup truck. When all of the rows were hilled up, we would go to the truck, scoop up a 5 gallon bucket of seed potatoes and place them on top of the flattened hills. Another person would come behind and pull about another 3 or 4 inches of soil on top of the hill, and lightly tamp in the potato piece so it didn't easily erode out. After the plants emerged, we would then pull more soil up to leave jut a couple inches of plant exposed. We would do this (If I remember) about four times. When the hills were finally finished they would be HUGE. When it came time to dig them, we would hook up the middle-buster to our mule team and run it right down the middle of the hill. Very few potatoes would grow below the hill (probably because of the hard red clay???) And about every 3 feet would yield a 5 gallon bucket full of potatoes.

Sorry Forerunner, I hope I didn't turn your thread into the Extreme Potato thread! :ashamed:


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## StayPuff

Forerunner said:


> StayPuff.....I envy your situation, for the moment.
> 
> If you want to stretch that golden poo, you're in an excellent position to do so.
> 
> You could estimate your percentages and mix the hog manure so as to use up all of your available wood chips (especially since they are a year old and contain the leafy matter, to boot) and likely come out with a screaming winner of a final product.
> Let it sit six months or longer, after mixing, and then prepare to _formally_ join the ranks of the Extremists! :bouncy:


WooooooHooo! Awesome. Thanks! Do I get an extreme composting certificate too! :sing:


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## Paquebot

StayPuff said:


> Ok, I can go with most of that. (Yes, I know what stolons are) However though, you can only grow potatoes in straw or hay bales if you add manure or rich mulch onto the top of the bales. The rain incorporates the nutrients and nitrogen into the bale for the potato plant to eat. Since Irish potatoes are of the nightshade family, they don't need much nitrogen to feed them. (We want potatoes, not humongous dark green bushes, right) This is why the straw bale idea works.


My reply was not about growing potatoes *in* straw but *under* straw. Growing *in *straw is a totally different system of planting. 



> Also, are you saying that the potato plant doesn't feed on nutrients above the seed potato 'line'?


Correct! There generally are no roots above the seed pieces and the stolons are incapable of taking in any nutrients since they are branches rather than roots.

Martin


----------



## StayPuff

Paquebot said:


> My reply was not about growing potatoes *in* straw but *under* straw. Growing *in *straw is a totally different system of planting.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct! There generally are no roots above the seed pieces and the stolons are incapable of taking in any nutrients since they are branches rather than roots.
> 
> Martin


I now have a new farm (in Northern IL) where the soil is rich, well drained, and loamy. I will definitely try, this year even, to grow them under straw like you say. I have never seen that, but that would be so much easier if it works.


----------



## Paquebot

StayPuff said:


> I now have a new farm (in Northern IL) where the soil is rich, well drained, and loamy. I will definitely try, this year even, to grow them under straw like you say. I have never seen that, but that would be so much easier if it works.


I believe that there have been past threads where a member tells of planting a large field by placing the potatoes on the tilled surface and unrolling a round bale of straw over them. Then harvest clean tubers in the fall and till the straw into the ground to prepare the field for the next season. No hilling required and little weed control required. Only potential drawback is the number of damaged tubers due to voles. 

Martin


----------



## dablack

CesumPec said:


> DaBlack - any way you can get someone to log the big trees? You keep and chip the limbs. In my area, small scale saw mills will go 50/50 on sawn lumber. Costs you nothing but half your wood. If you preferred, forego the chipping and use the limbs in your hugelculture trench.


CP that is a great idea and might be one of the paths I take. I figured that a decent band saw mill would just about pay for itself putting siding on the house and building a pole barn. I'm on the forestry forum as well and have been looking into it for years. The problem (or blessing) is that these dead tress are just about rotten and not good for lumber. 

StayPuff,
That also sounds really cool but there is no way I could swing that. We are starting small right now and trying to build the house with cash. There is no way we could invest in what is required to run cattle. We don't even own a truck right now. Also, I'm an engineer about 45 minutes away so I'm gone about 10.5 hrs a day. We will start with chickens, orchard and big garden. Once we are doing well in those regards I might look into it again, but I see us moving to goats before we do anything else. We already buy whole raw goat milk and would love to make our own. 

FRunner,
Yes, I think it will work ok. It will help me get more level ground and improve the soil.....even if it takes a little longer than chipping and cooking in a pile with the addition of some N. But don't worry, I'm already planning on communing with the pile of logs. 

thanks
Austin


----------



## Forerunner

Not to worry, StayPuff....... taters are a favorite staple around here, and any info concerning them is welcome.

.......and, if we don't take this thread to it's extremes, what good is it ? :shrug:


----------



## RomeGrower

I'm so EXCITED! I emailed the stockyard about 20 miles from us and got a reply saying they have an unlimited supply of mixed bedding/manure that we can have for free if we load it ourselves. Forefunner and Mudburn have stirred up something in me. I couldn't have imagined being so wound up over news like this. Now our surburban gardens can really thrive as our smallish compost pile takes on some new life beginning next week. Thanks guys.


----------



## am1too

RomeGrower said:


> I'm so EXCITED! I emailed the stockyard about 20 miles from us and got a reply saying they have an unlimited supply of mixed bedding/manure that we can have for free if we load it ourselves. Forefunner and Mudburn have stirred up something in me. I couldn't have imagined being so wound up over news like this. Now our surburban gardens can really thrive as our smallish compost pile takes on some new life beginning next week. Thanks guys.


That is the way I get my compost and compost material.


----------



## Paquebot

RomeGrower said:


> I'm so EXCITED! I emailed the stockyard about 20 miles from us and got a reply saying they have an unlimited supply of mixed bedding/manure that we can have for free if we load it ourselves. Forefunner and Mudburn have stirred up something in me. I couldn't have imagined being so wound up over news like this. Now our surburban gardens can really thrive as our smallish compost pile takes on some new life beginning next week. Thanks guys.


Suburban gardeners have the same chances as rural gardeners to produce good compost but just on a smaller scale. In the 70s and 80s, my cars all had big trunks and there were always six 5-gallon pails and a short-handled shovel in them. (Car of the 90s could only hold 5 pails.) Any time that I was near a pile of cow or horse manure, it was a little smaller after my visit. Doesn't seem like much but it adds up. For this century my "car" is a pickup and will hold 18 pails or 3 times the old way. Presently, one of my piles is about 450 gallons. It's 2 parts tumbler compost to 1 part horse manure. Pretty much all of it came here in 5-gallon pails.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Now _see_, Martin ? 

*THAT*'s the kind of make-do-with-whatcha-got-and-grow-from-there story we like to see around here.


----------



## Forerunner

Rome-G, welcome to the club. 

On a side note, when your friends and relatives finally drag you in for therapy, don't resist.

Just nod your head and smile a lot, and remember........when you get home, a good hot compost pile will cook those silly meds, pills or liquids, and you can get straight back to work.:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:


----------



## Forerunner

"Forefunner". :bored:

I just caught that.





:thumb:


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> Suburban gardeners have the same chances as rural gardeners to produce good compost but just on a smaller scale. In the 70s and 80s, my cars all had big trunks and there were always six 5-gallon pails and a short-handled shovel in them. (Car of the 90s could only hold 5 pails.) Any time that I was near a pile of cow or horse manure, it was a little smaller after my visit. Doesn't seem like much but it adds up. For this century my "car" is a pickup and will hold 18 pails or 3 times the old way. Presently, one of my piles is about 450 gallons. It's 2 parts tumbler compost to 1 part horse manure. Pretty much all of it came here in 5-gallon pails.
> 
> Martin


Your extreme composter certificate and listing in the ******* registry are in danger of being revoked if you tell me your pickup bed is carpeted so you can't haul truck loads of poo. Please tell me it ain't so.


----------



## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> Now _see_, Martin ?
> 
> *THAT*'s the kind of make-do-with-whatcha-got-and-grow-from-there story we like to see around here.


In terms of experience, you guys are just rookies. I've been composting in the same exact area for 18,138 days and doing it in accordance to the person who wrote the book on it.




CesumPec said:


> Your extreme composter certificate and listing in the ******* registry are in danger of being revoked if you tell me your pickup bed is carpeted so you can't haul truck loads of poo. Please tell me it ain't so.


No carpet but suburban gardeners usually don't have a road to their gardens or a dung heap beside the street. It would have to be shoveled into something else in order to get it from the street to the compost area. Having it already in something makes more sense than having to shovel it twice. Also sets an example for others who have small gardens and only need 20-30 gallons rather than 20-30 yards.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Paquebot said:


> In terms of experience, you guys are just rookies. I've been composting in the same exact area for 18,138 days and doing it in accordance to the person who wrote the book on it.


I'll be sure to write that down, some place, so's I don't forget.































:smack


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> In terms of experience, you guys are just rookies. I've been composting in the same exact area for 18,138 days and doing it in accordance to the person who wrote the book on it.
> 
> No carpet but suburban gardeners usually don't have a road to their gardens or a dung heap beside the street. It would have to be shoveled into something else in order to get it from the street to the compost area. Having it already in something makes more sense than having to shovel it twice. Also sets an example for others who have small gardens and only need 20-30 gallons rather than 20-30 yards.
> 
> Martin


Wish that was all I needed. I am shooting for 10,000 yards.


----------



## RomeGrower

Forerunner said:


> Rome-G, welcome to the club.
> 
> On a side note, when your friends and relatives finally drag you in for therapy, don't resist.
> 
> Just nod your head and smile a lot, and remember........when you get home, a good hot compost pile will cook those silly meds, pills or liquids, and you can get straight back to work.:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:


Thanks Forerunner. I'm just a little guy here, but my nose is to the ground and I love the dirt and growing things. We are transforming a grass and ornamental treed yard into a productive and atractive yard and can stop buying so many bags of soil amendments from the box store now. 

Our oldest son is majoring in horticulture at UGA and wants to homestead when he graduates, so he is all over what you guys are dong here.


----------



## StayPuff

Martin,

I for one, being a rookie, would love to see some pitchers of your composting area and method. You've really 'peaked' my curiosity!


----------



## RomeGrower

CesumPec said:


> Your extreme composter certificate and listing in the ******* registry are in danger of being revoked if you tell me your pickup bed is carpeted so you can't haul truck loads of poo. Please tell me it ain't so.


No carpet in the back of my son's truck. It has a bedliner, but we'll use a tarp. There's not too much ******* in us yet.


----------



## FoxGardener92

RomeGrower said:


> No carpet in the back of my son's truck. It has a bedliner, but we'll use a tarp. There's not too much ******* in us yet.


I am the son in question and I can assure you all, I am every bit as excited about this prospect as my dad. This will be one of the better uses for my truck bed!


----------



## Forerunner

A Father and Son team. 

How positively inspiring. 

My first composting efforts were with an old, homemade two wheel trailer and a Model "A" Deere......hauling horse manure and bedding (we didn't segregate the urine :ashamed: ) all of a half mile from the neighboring horse farm where I was Chief Executive Stall Mucker. 

That started about the time I was 14.

My extreme efforts in the very late 90s began with a heavy old Chevy 4WD pickup...and a pitchfork and shovel.

Neither rig had a dump.
Neither rig had a carpeted floor. :lookout:

Both rigs, applied regularly, made massive piles in a short amount of time.

:bouncy:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> A Father and Son team.
> 
> How positively inspiring.
> 
> My first composting efforts were with an old, homemade two wheel trailer and a Model "A" Deere......hauling horse manure and bedding (we didn't segregate the urine :ashamed: ) all of a half mile from the neighboring horse farm where I was Chief Executive Stall Mucker.
> 
> That started about the time I was 14.
> 
> My extreme efforts in the very late 90s began with a heavy old Chevy 4WD pickup...and a pitchfork and shovel.
> 
> Neither rig had a dump.
> Neither rig had a carpeted floor. :lookout:
> 
> Both rigs, applied regularly, made massive piles in a short amount of time.
> 
> :bouncy:


Like you've said a pitchfork can do lots of work.


----------



## am1too

Say if my pile has simply dired out can I revive it by just turning and soaking it?


----------



## Forerunner

I've seen many a quiet pile take a couple inches of rain.....or a generous melting of snow, and begin steaming vigorously the next morning.

A good soaking may be all it needs.


----------



## Studhauler

I have let the garden hose run on my pile for an hour at a time, but I am there moving it around and shoving the hose into the pile. My piles would not compost if I didn't add water.


----------



## Joe Prepper

I got a load of horse/cow manure yesterday. Planning to mix in some wood chips as soon as I can get my hands on some more. It is all but impossible to find free ones now. All the tree companies, pole mills etc sell them. Looks like it's time to find a big chipper. For now Ill add in some hay and leaves...which are in short supply. All the others around here magically turned to dirt!


----------



## CesumPec

I have been reading up a bit on Bokashi, a form of anaerobic composting. http://www.compostguy.com/bokashi/making-bokashi/

It looks interesting and I can see the value for a suburban home where a backyard pile might not be possible. Bokashi can also take bones, milk, and oils which you probably don't want to do in small suburban piles. 

To our CEO (Composting Extremist Originator) or any other extremists among us, have any of you tried this composting method? 

It looks like for my needs that it would be more labor without any significant benefit over aerobic composting. Am I missing something?


----------



## Forerunner

Ziplock bags.

Wheat bran.

Grandma's Molasses.

Boiling water.

Did I miss the microscope and tweezers ?


























:sob:















By all means, for those interested, don't let my clunky, clumsy massive methodology stand in your way. 








*whistles a distractingly neutral tune as he tiptoes for the door*


(eta) *whispering* C-P.....whatever possessed you to read up on, ummm, _Bokashi_ ? :huh:


----------



## Forerunner

Joe Prepper....I'm curious now. 

Did your manure supply come with any bedding carbon or is it basically straight manure ?


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> (eta) *whispering* C-P.....whatever possessed you to read up on, ummm, _Bokashi_ ? :huh:


furthering my composting education. for small scale, inside the kitchen composting, it seems like a cool idea. But I'm not creative enough to find an extremist methodology to make it useful to me unless the entire town starts bringing me kitchen waste.


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## Forerunner

Well, so long as you get your blender from Morbark or Vermeer, rather than Betty Crocker or KitchenAid, I suppose I could live with it. :indif:


----------



## unregistered41671

You guys get me tickled, once in a while.


----------



## Joe Prepper

Forerunner said:


> Joe Prepper....I'm curious now.
> 
> Did your manure supply come with any bedding carbon or is it basically straight manure ?


It came pretty much as straight manure from an animal transition area. There was some hay spread around, but was not broken down. I would say less than 10% carbon for sure. The person I got it from used a tractor rake to pull up some piles and then scooped it on to my trailer. I am adding wood shavings from a planer business that I lucked upon this week and some leaves for now. 

~Joe~


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## Forerunner

Too much carbon is certainly more convenient than an excessively nitrogenous pile of goo......but, the worst it will do is ferment while it waits for your carbon sources to catch up.

Ask me how I know. :grin:


(....and, no, Martin.....I didn't read it in a book :whistlin: )


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## Trisha in WA

That is exactly the issue we normally have...not enough carbon for the nitrogen goo (via the cows, horses, rabbits and chickens). Finally got hooked up with a couple of sawyers though and now can get loads of good shavings and sawdust YAY! for free carbon!!!


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## Forerunner

IF one has a consistent nitrogen excess in their material, and....
IF one has the means, and.....
IF one has occasional breaks between rains,......

Then one might have a good excuse for occasionally turning the slightly dried outer layer into the middle to allow the middle to dry some and to mix that slightly drier stuff in to allow some nitrogen to escape and the pile will balance itself quicker.
If frequent rain plagues the operation, best to build the pile in a cone shape, on a high spot, to allow all rain to run off and to avoid any flowing water access to the pile.

Then just grit your teeth and wait for carbon, dry weather or Father Time to get his act together.


----------



## bja105

My new pile. There is a horse under there. Most of a horse.









The source. I am afraid if I don't get my act together and catch up to his production, he will find someone to buy his sawdust.


----------



## Forerunner

Most of a horse ? 


What did you do with the rest of it ?


Love the sawdust pile....and, yeah.....you'd better get on the stick and get that hauled home!!


----------



## bja105

Its the other red meat.


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## Forerunner

Grilled or sausage ? :grin:


----------



## COWS

For those with no source of sawdust, chips, etc, I suggest finding some local hobbyist or serious woodworkers and offer to haul off their sawdust and maybe even short offcuts. Solid pine, oak, maple etc will eventually decay. Locust, red cedar not so well.
Don't know about tropical hardwoods. Walnut sawdust is supposed to discourage plant growth but I'm not an expert. Horse owners won't take walnut sawdust because, as i have been told, it poisons the horse through the hooves. Again, I'm no expert or even a horse owner.

COWS


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah, walnut sawdust is a nono for horse bedding, but it's fine in compost.

Juglone is the nasty compound, and the heat and microbial action of good composting practices will neutralize the stuff by the time the compost is ready to use.


----------



## CesumPec

BJA - that is a LOT of sawdust. Great find and that ought to keep you busy for quite a while. I wish I could loan you my dump trailer. ​


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## YamahaRick

Forerunner said:


> Most of a horse ?
> 
> 
> What did you do with the rest of it ?


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZtyvlzVm7Y"]Classic Scene From "The Godfather"[/ame]


----------



## Studhauler

Seeing the last pictures make me miss my old cub, it was about the same vintage. It was a good old work horse. I sold it when I got a 62" Toro Groundsmaster. Once again I regret selling something.


----------



## Oswego

I'm in town but at least I have an acre lot. Scored with someone that is a member of a riding club and now have access to horse stall gold. The City picks up all leaves, grass clippings etc so I just hook up a small trailor several times a month and go to the areas that have either Monday or Tuesday pickup days to get their weekend carbon matter they put on the side of the street. I save and add to pile the kitchen trimmings also.They even pile up pine straw at the street in the winter and thats beats paying for it at Lowes for flower beds in front yard. 

I have twelve acres with ponds that I could have a few monster piles if and when I score a source for larger amounts of carbon and nitrogen.

Working towards living there when the stars line up.


----------



## am1too

Eh just keep piling it up. No need to build everything on the same day. Where I get some of my compost they take 3 months to build a pile and they get tons every day cept Sunday when they are closed.


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## Joe Prepper

Studhauler said:


> Seeing the last pictures make me miss my old cub, it was about the same vintage. It was a good old work horse. I sold it when I got a 62" Toro Groundsmaster. Once again I regret selling something.


Your forum name and this picture made me laugh! Thanks! :hysterical:


----------



## Joe Prepper

Oh, Nice Cub BTW. I want one with a small rake attachment, but they are pricey around my area....as they should be I guess. Can't buy them like that any more.


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## RomeGrower

Here are a few pics of our last few days' work:


----------



## Studhauler

Joe Prepper said:


> Your forum name and this picture made me laugh! Thanks! :hysterical:


Yeah, I suppose that would make one laugh. My dad (back facing the camera) thinks he is very studly. I got my username from a friend who was helping me get online when the internet became popular. I had the 110 pound black lab cross that I hauled around in the back of my pick-up truck all the time; his name was Studly.


----------



## Joe Prepper

last year I was carbon heavy and nitrogen poor. Now with my new manure source and my own rabbit and chicken manure, I am in desperate need of carbon. There was a time when you could get wood chips from just about any pole mill around. Now they all sell them to places that dye them all red and sell em by the bag. 

Tree services...even Asplundh is the same story. The local place that gets all the wood chips and pole scraps charges 20.00 a yard for the pretreated twice ground chips...that's about 100 bucks a loader bucket the way I figure.  Maybe that's a good price...and I need some for some walkways, but that's way to expensive to be making compost with. Guess I will have to start marketing to increase the business of the guy I get my free planar shavings from.


----------



## am1too

RomeGrower said:


> Here are a few pics of our last few days' work:


Dang man get a wheelbarrow. I thought I worked hard.


----------



## Forerunner

Call me goofy, but when it comes to manual labor, I still prefer my five gallon buckets over a wheel barrel. 
Now, my sons, on the other hand....... they prefer a wheel barrel. :shrug:


----------



## RomeGrower

My son wanted to get the wheelbarrow out, but it has a flat tire and it's a tight fit where I'm putting the piles so buckets worked fine. I pretty much always use buckets moving piles of earth or, now, manure.

How long do these piles need to sit before I can put them into the beds? What should I look for to know that it is finished?


----------



## Forerunner

If you're making hot compost, just wait for it to cool back down.

If you're not making hot compost, it will take a bit longer to finish, but you can tell by the smell when you dig into the pile. Finished compost won't have any strong, unpleasant whang to it, as a rule.  The finished material should also be much darker than the original ingredients, even black.......and should be broken down to unrecognizable and granular, rather like coffee grounds.

If you just start with benign material such as leaves.....you know, nothing like a road kill moose, a semi-load of raw hog manure or several hundred rotten eggs, you can use the material before it's completely finished decomposing. Leaf mould comes to mind, and is wonderful stuff for mulch and soil loosening media.

What are your basic ingredients ?


----------



## RomeGrower

There is no strong smell to it. It's very subtle. I was surprised that it doesn't smell too bad after we piled it up. I have leaves under the piles. The manure is mixed heavily with straw. The third bed has leaves and kitchen waste plus mixed bedding. I was thinking we could start using the first two by this Summer maybe.

Is hot compost pure manure? This was hot when we picked it up. It was steaming when the bobcat drove in and loaded it. I'm watching it a lot. My family thinks I'm kind of crazy. I guess you said that would happen.


----------



## Forerunner

Compost that is heating nicely wouldn't be pure manure......it would rather be a near perfect blend of manure and carbons. That's one of the best indicator, if you are picking up material from abroad. If it's steaming as they load it, you're onto the good stuff. 

You might have some finished by summer, from your description.
Just don't be in too big a hurry.

Patience is our most valuable ally, when comes to building soil.


----------



## Oswego

I found a commercial woodworking shop that generates a lot of wood shavings and sawdust. Got the okay to get whatever I want.
While planning a roadtrip with tractor/loader and trailer for the weekend to get a load I realized that I would be like Forerunner pulling his trailer with his tractor to get stuff for his piles:bouncy:although it looks like only a 3 mile trip one way. Not a dump trailer but I have put a chain around the tongue of the traier and lifted it with loader bucket to dump before.

Now if I can only find a manure source within range or one that has a loader I'll be in compost heaven.


----------



## Dolly

Forerunner, do you have any desire to write a book, or have you? You would be very good at it, you have a very engaging writing style.


----------



## RomeGrower

It's kind of funny now that I want to keep going out to look at the compost pile and have a great desire to go back and get more manure at the stockyard. Look what you've started Forerunner!


----------



## Forerunner

Awwww.......

Ya'll just make an' old man blush.......... :grin:


----------



## StayPuff

Joe Prepper said:


> last year I was carbon heavy and nitrogen poor. Now with my new manure source and my own rabbit and chicken manure, I am in desperate need of carbon. There was a time when you could get wood chips from just about any pole mill around. Now they all sell them to places that dye them all red and sell em by the bag.
> 
> Tree services...even Asplundh is the same story. The local place that gets all the wood chips and pole scraps charges 20.00 a yard for the pretreated twice ground chips...that's about 100 bucks a loader bucket the way I figure.  Maybe that's a good price...and I need some for some walkways, but that's way to expensive to be making compost with. Guess I will have to start marketing to increase the business of the guy I get my free planar shavings from.


Hey Joe. You might try calling some small-fry trimmers in your area. Ask them if they pay a tipping fee to dump their chippings. If they do, let them know if they have a job around your area, they are welcome to dump at your place and save the fee. This works in our area. Of course, it helps to have a next door neighbor (like I do), or someone close by that owns one of the busiest tree trimming and removal services around. Also, you might call and see if any farmers in your area have ruined hay laying somewhere in a fence row. Not uncommon to see if your looking!


----------



## Oswego

Got a tip on some cow manure and was told I could come get what I wanted and they would load and not charge me anything. The cattle farmer feeds hay in one area year round and three or four times a year he scrapes off the hay/manure and piles it up. What I got was three huge bucket loads of last years scrapings (now my trailer needs some welding work). Its PERFECT compost, black soft and ready to use. 
I reckon he thought I would not want the fresh stuff and fixed me up with ready to use in the garden compost. 

I think I'll keep him in mind for perfect compost when I don't have enough and get my fresher manure from a small organic Dairy Farm I have hooked up with to go with my supply of sawdust I have found. Both are within ten miles of home.

Back to the trailer now needing some welding, After two giant bucket loads from a tractor twice the size of my pickup truck I told him that was plenty and I did not think my trailer would handle any more weight. He said no I needed more and told his helper to get one more full scoop. I left there with my tires looking almost flat and when I got home my trailer tongue was bent from the weight.
I used my single axle trailer because I planned to use my double axle with larger bed for larger volume of sawdust this weekend and could have both trailers sitting side by side to mix the sawdust and manure as I unloaded.


----------



## Forerunner

Hmmmm......... talk about not needing further reason to upgrade equipment.... :whistlin:


You've found a gold mine, there.

I still refuse to understand why these farmers don't get it, though. :shrug:


----------



## Oswego

Forerunner said:


> Hmmmm......... talk about not needing further reason to upgrade equipment.... :whistlin:
> 
> 
> You've found a gold mine, there.
> 
> I still refuse to understand why these farmers don't get it, though. :shrug:


I sure would like to have a small two axle dump trailer

His Pile was 8' high and 100' long with fresh on one end and older on the other. The stuff I got is pure gold with the only stuff to pick out are some plastic strings used to tie the hay bales with. I could not identify any hay in it because it had completely composted. There were some dark green plants growing on top and sides and they looked very happy. I plan to make good friends with him.


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> I sure would like to have a small two axle dump trailer
> 
> His Pile was 8' high and 100' long with fresh on one end and older on the other. The stuff I got is pure gold with the only stuff to pick out are some plastic strings used to tie the hay bales with. I could not identify any hay in it because it had completely composted. There were some dark green plants growing on top and sides and they looked very happy. I plan to make good friends with him.


So do I. My problem is I would need a bigger pea cup (pickup) to handle one. Money, money, money. I commonaly jack up the nose now.


----------



## Forerunner

Oswego said:


> I plan to make good friends with him.


If you are talented as Cesum-P, you could bake the man an occasional pie. 

Cherry and pecan are my favorites, btw.......


----------



## motdaugrnds

As I read this thread, it is sounding more and more like the lower area of my goat pen....


----------



## Oswego

Forerunner said:


> If you are talented as Cesum-P, you could bake the man an occasional pie.
> 
> Cherry and pecan are my favorites, btw.......


I'll get him to bake you one. 

BBQ is what I cook best, I cooked competition BBQ for 6 years, For my new friend I think a slab of ribs or some sliced Brisket would go a long way in our compost relationship.
I do know where he eats lunch on Fridays, small diner with homecooked meals, so I might just happen to be there to eat on a Friday when I get low on finished compost. Buying his lunch could not hurt.


----------



## Oswego

Busy compost day, this morning I took tractor and two axle trailer to my free sawdust source and brought back full load. This afternoon I went to the organic dairy farm and got full load of fresh organic manure.
There is nothing better than the smell of organic cow manure as the sun is going down.

Building a raised bed tomorrow, I'll be glad to go back to work Monday, there is less to do there.


----------



## Forerunner

This certainly is not my favorite time of year for composting, but the material just keeps coming in....and, I find that having the right tool for the job makes all the difference.


----------



## Anonymooose

Oh I'm so jealous...your snow is gone! We hit -13F last night and forcast is for another 3-4 inches tomorrow


----------



## Oswego

78 yesterday, 61 last night and today 78 again with chance of severe thunderstorms. We might be skipping spring this year in Southeast Alabama.


----------



## Forerunner

We skipped it last year. 

For us, though, global warming seems to have backed off for more politically neutral pursuits. :shrug:


----------



## LittleRedHen

I swear I see a brown cow in your pile...


----------



## Forerunner

No............ 




Really ?














:whistlin:


----------



## LittleRedHen

It would be good for one of those "what do you see in this photo" facebook photos. (like looking for the snake, cat and man in camo


----------



## Forerunner

That photo was purely random, but I agree, it does have mystique about it. 

If only they knew how many critters _are_ buried in that pile.....that _aren't_ showing.

*cue Twilight Zone theme as screen fades to dark, here*


----------



## am1too

LittleRedHen said:


> I swear I see a brown cow in your pile...


It blends in very well.


----------



## margo

" I swear I see a brown cow in your pile."

I believe that's what the composter experts call brown matter.


----------



## am1too

Anonymooose said:


> Oh I'm so jealous...your snow is gone! We hit -13F last night and forcast is for another 3-4 inches tomorrow


You're jealous, humpf. I only wish I had a big enough place to warrant one of those toys. Oh my could I have fun.


----------



## Rafter B

dont understand either why the farmers dont use it themselves either. what a great resource they have. 



Forerunner said:


> Hmmmm......... talk about not needing further reason to upgrade equipment.... :whistlin:
> 
> 
> You've found a gold mine, there.
> 
> I still refuse to understand why these farmers don't get it, though. :shrug:


----------



## am1too

Rafter B said:


> dont understand either why the farmers dont use it themselves either. what a great resource they have.


You aren't the only one. I was told horse people are smart because they have money. I got thanked again for hauling off 9 yards of horse stall cleaning. And these have already started composting. Get them every 7-10 days.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> You aren't the only one. I was told horse people are smart because they have money. I got thanked again for hauling off 9 yards of horse stall cleaning. And these have already started composting. Get them every 7-10 days.


Most people with lots of horses do not have cropland where the manure would be plowed under. If they have no place to spread it, it's something which they must arrange to have hauled away. There are large dairies around here which rent other farms in order to spread their manure. 

Martin


----------



## Rafter B

yeah, but farmers have plenty of crop land. especially a dairy farm. and most dont even mess with it. 



Paquebot said:


> Most people with lots of horses do not have cropland where the manure would be plowed under. If they have no place to spread it, it's something which they must arrange to have hauled away. There are large dairies around here which rent other farms in order to spread their manure.
> 
> Martin


----------



## Paquebot

Rafter B said:


> yeah, but farmers have plenty of crop land. especially a dairy farm. and most dont even mess with it.


Quite the opposite. Thousands of acres of crop land may be there but it's not sitting idle and awaiting tons of manure. Dairy crops are corn, hay, and grain. None of those are conducive to spreading manure from mid-April to October without a fallow field involved. If one has a thousand cattle and a pit or lagoon which is full after 6 months or so, someone is going to be driving around looking for fields of winter wheat or similar grain and then dicker on a price for spreading the day after the straw is baled. I have some friends who haul lagoon manure from sunup to sundown when there is suitable land available for spreading. They run 8,500 gallon liquid spreaders and they are so huge that they can't meet on normal town roads. Some routes may be 10-15 miles once around in a big circle. They start around mid-July and first haul to newly-harvested winter wheat fields. October is 7 days a week right behind the corn choppers. By the end of that month, most lagoons are empty and too cold for proper bacterial action and that starts all over. When ground freezes, DNR may say no spreading on certain fields so it's done for the year. Those huge ugly brown tanks are finally washed to reveal their original red color while the cows keep on doing their part to assure that the system will start all over next year. 

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> Quite the opposite. Thousands of acres of crop land may be there but it's not sitting idle and awaiting tons of manure. Dairy crops are corn, hay, and grain. None of those are conducive to spreading manure from mid-April to October without a fallow field involved. If one has a thousand cattle and a pit or lagoon which is full after 6 months or so, someone is going to be driving around looking for fields of winter wheat or similar grain and then dicker on a price for spreading the day after the straw is baled. I have some friends who haul lagoon manure from sunup to sundown when there is suitable land available for spreading. They run 8,500 gallon liquid spreaders and they are so huge that they can't meet on normal town roads. Some routes may be 10-15 miles once around in a big circle. They start around mid-July and first haul to newly-harvested winter wheat fields. October is 7 days a week right behind the corn choppers. By the end of that month, most lagoons are empty and too cold for proper bacterial action and that starts all over. When ground freezes, DNR may say no spreading on certain fields so it's done for the year. Those huge ugly brown tanks are finally washed to reveal their original red color while the cows keep on doing their part to assure that the system will start all over next year.
> 
> Martin


I claim no expertise in this area, but it matches up with my one experience. When shopping for my place, I found a ~150 acre place, the majority in hay, that came with an obligation to accept manure spreading from the dairy across the street. The farmers had signed a multi year deal and the buyer had to continue. 

I thought it was a sweet deal that made the farmland all the better. Free fertilizer delivered and spread for years to come. But eventually I decided to pass because half the land was in a town and subject to zoning restrictions I couldn't stomach.


----------



## Forerunner

I do believe, if I lived that close to a major manure producer, I might have to take up sawmilling on a rather large scale, just on principle. :shrug:

There'd be sawdust, chippers, debarkers, conveyors, tub grinders, trucks.......

My god, look what you felluhs have done to my day !


:sob:
:sob:
:sob:

Imagine the steaming piles that would be towering in _that_ event.


----------



## Rafter B

see. that is what I was saying, why doesnt the dairy farmer use his own manure instead of giving it away?? it is good for you, that is for sure, but what about his land? 



CesumPec said:


> I claim no expertise in this area, but it matches up with my one experience. When shopping for my place, I found a ~150 acre place, the majority in hay, that came with an obligation to accept manure spreading from the dairy across the street. The farmers had signed a multi year deal and the buyer had to continue.
> 
> I thought it was a sweet deal that made the farmland all the better. Free fertilizer delivered and spread for years to come. But eventually I decided to pass because half the land was in a town and subject to zoning restrictions I couldn't stomach.


----------



## Anonymooose

Some conventional dairies have a high concentration of animals for the area. A 100+ cow dairy might only have 10-20 acres for barns and paddocks. These guys _aren't_ all producing their feed for the animals, instead they are buying it in. They HAVE no land to fertilize. Someone else specializes in growing the crops (inputs) they need.


----------



## Oswego

If they used it all on their land then they would not have some for my compost piles.

The organic dairy farm I got some manure from Saturday does put it back on their fields plus some chicken manure. I saw the monster spreader trucks Saturday. But you can only put so much out and only certain times of the year. If they had three times as much land as they needed to grow crops for the cows to eat then they might be able to rotate and put it all back in the ground. But then I would be at a loss of sh-- for my piles


----------



## CesumPec

Rafter B said:


> see. that is what I was saying, why doesnt the dairy farmer use his own manure instead of giving it away?? it is good for you, that is for sure, but what about his land?


I can't answer that. I saw the dairy from the street, never met the dairy farmer and don't know the size or situation with his land.


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Most people with lots of horses do not have cropland where the manure would be plowed under. If they have no place to spread it, it's something which they must arrange to have hauled away. There are large dairies around here which rent other farms in order to spread their manure.
> 
> Martin


But they could spread it as a mulch and top dressing and let nature do the work. There is an incredible need to soften the ground horses trample. Nothing works better than organic material.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> But they could spread it as a mulch and top dressing and let nature do the work. There is an incredible need to soften the ground horses trample. Nothing works better than organic material.


Years ago the DW was head wrangler for a YMCA camp and 26 horses. The riding arena was dirt or possibly concrete, there was no way to tell the difference, and no money to purchase footing. She solved the problem with the output of 26 horses and by the end of the summer, the arena fluffy soft.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> But they could spread it as a mulch and top dressing and let nature do the work. There is an incredible need to soften the ground horses trample. Nothing works better than organic material.





CesumPec said:


> Years ago the DW was head wrangler for a YMCA camp and 26 horses. The riding arena was dirt or possibly concrete, there was no way to tell the difference, and no money to purchase footing. She solved the problem with the output of 26 horses and by the end of the summer, the arena fluffy soft.


When you're dealing with horses, that arena gets hard for a reason and that's from compaction. Big animals with big flat feet and soon you have soil's equivalent of concrete. Theory of using manure to soften the surface looks good until it rains since it won't drain unless very light soil. Then the animals are wading in their own manure. Think cow and steer feed lots. No problem as long as ground is frozen or it never rains. Add water and it becomes one of the main reasons why many people are against feed lot animals when it becomes a foot of muck to wade through. 

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> When you're dealing with horses, that arena gets hard for a reason and that's from compaction. Big animals with big flat feet and soon you have soil's equivalent of concrete. Theory of using manure to soften the surface looks good until it rains since it won't drain unless very light soil. Then the animals are wading in their own manure. Think cow and steer feed lots. No problem as long as ground is frozen or it never rains. Add water and it becomes one of the main reasons why many people are against feed lot animals when it becomes a foot of muck to wade through.
> 
> Martin


An excellent theory, it just didn't work in the one case I have first hand experience. We were able to lighten the soil, break it up, and get it to drain as opposed to being a concrete bottomed lake when it rained. The new problem we had was that the lighter soil got pushed aside easily so the arena had to be groomed, whereas when it was like concrete, no maintenance except for mowing the center.


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> When you're dealing with horses, that arena gets hard for a reason and that's from compaction. Big animals with big flat feet and soon you have soil's equivalent of concrete. Theory of using manure to soften the surface looks good until it rains since it won't drain unless very light soil. Then the animals are wading in their own manure. Think cow and steer feed lots. No problem as long as ground is frozen or it never rains. Add water and it becomes one of the main reasons why many people are against feed lot animals when it becomes a foot of muck to wade through.
> 
> Martin


Horse manure is vey absorbant unlike cow and other manures. Horse manure had loads of unbroken fibers not like other manures.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Horse manure is vey absorbant unlike cow and other manures. Horse manure had loads of unbroken fibers not like other manures.


Where I gardened the past 2 years, there are 4 horses. Paddock area is almost pure silt. Any low spot holds water and quickly becomes deeper by the horses carrying away dirt with their hooves, same as a hog wallow. Has to be filled in and leveled several times a year. Not much problem in a dry year but definitely is in a normal year. 

Animal Planet Channel has Animal Cops. There's been a number of episodes where they showed horses wallowing in same conditions as the worse feed lots. Those that we've watched were all in Texas. 

Martin


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## Rafter B

your so right about that. it is always a plus on our side. in fact, some of you have given me a great idea about the lagoons. going to see if I can tap into that someday. 



Oswego said:


> If they used it all on their land then they would not have some for my compost piles.
> 
> The organic dairy farm I got some manure from Saturday does put it back on their fields plus some chicken manure. I saw the monster spreader trucks Saturday. But you can only put so much out and only certain times of the year. If they had three times as much land as they needed to grow crops for the cows to eat then they might be able to rotate and put it all back in the ground. But then I would be at a loss of sh-- for my piles


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Where I gardened the past 2 years, there are 4 horses. Paddock area is almost pure silt. Any low spot holds water and quickly becomes deeper by the horses carrying away dirt with their hooves, same as a hog wallow. Has to be filled in and leveled several times a year. Not much problem in a dry year but definitely is in a normal year.
> 
> Animal Planet Channel has Animal Cops. There's been a number of episodes where they showed horses wallowing in same conditions as the worse feed lots. Those that we've watched were all in Texas.
> 
> Martin


Hmmm! I do not know what to say. Here anything that is not worked by a tractor on which horses are kept gets very hard. The stables even have rubber mats in them to help besides the regular bedding.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Hmmm! I do not know what to say. Here anything that is not worked by a tractor on which horses are kept gets very hard. The stables even have rubber mats in them to help besides the regular bedding.


We're saying the same thing. Paddock area/barnyard at the garlic farm is about as compacted as silt can become and most water must drain horizontally. Any low spot retains water and that silt becomes mud. Same mud sticks to the horses' hooves and carried away while making that low spot deeper for the next rainfall to fill. The horses there are fed inside what was a steer barn with cement floor. Consequently there is almost pure manure available for use on the garlic fields. 

Martin


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> We're saying the same thing. Paddock area/barnyard at the garlic farm is about as compacted as silt can become and most water must drain horizontally. Any low spot retains water and that silt becomes mud. Same mud sticks to the horses' hooves and carried away while making that low spot deeper for the next rainfall to fill. The horses there are fed inside what was a steer barn with cement floor. Consequently there is almost pure manure available for use on the garlic fields.
> 
> Martin


I find it very interesting that most any material not having any moisture content becomes resistant to penetration. It is also most interesting how mixed organic matter retains water when mixed in the soil. Seems to be different when just on the soil. The material in contact with the dirt is usually moist.


----------



## bama

not to get the topic off its current track, but we have steam!!!!!!!

we use a 4 sided pallet-constructed compost bin. we spread what we had from last years pile and restarted over the fall/winter. it is nearly full already. i foresee another compost bin in my future!  yay!


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## Forerunner

Oh, thank God, yes.

Let's do get back to steaming compost piles. 

Some of mine seem to be waking up from their winter nap, they having been constructed using frozen ingredients.

Others....well, they seem to have been hot all along.


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## Forerunner

Oooopps. 

Forgot the steaming part. 

:grin:


----------



## am1too

bama said:


> not to get the topic off its current track, but we have steam!!!!!!!
> 
> we use a 4 sided pallet-constructed compost bin. we spread what we had from last years pile and restarted over the fall/winter. it is nearly full already. i foresee another compost bin in my future!  yay!


I have gotten more than 4 inches of rain this week and she is steaming once again. It is so nice to see mud puddles again.

Speaking of steaming I got 21 yards of steaming horse stall cleanings. They were soaked with good nitrogen and plenty rain.


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## RomeGrower

Hey why is your pile steaming and mine 3 piles beside the house are not? They were when we picked them up at the sale barn. Do I need to stir them up a little, or is it at work inside the pile and I can't see it?


----------



## am1too

RomeGrower said:


> Hey why is your pile steaming and mine 3 piles beside the house are not? They were when we picked them up at the sale barn. Do I need to stir them up a little, or is it at work inside the pile and I can't see it?


Sometimes I see my undisturbed pile steaming. Mostly I see the steam when I dig into the pile. When I loaded the horse stall cleanings is when I saw the steam. The pile was somewhat dry on the outside.


----------



## Paquebot

RomeGrower said:


> Hey why is your pile steaming and mine 3 piles beside the house are not? They were when we picked them up at the sale barn. Do I need to stir them up a little, or is it at work inside the pile and I can't see it?


If they were hot and steaming when you got them, they may have been at the end of the heat cycle. If all of the free nitrogen has been used up, all the turning in the world isn't going to revive it. At that point, it would be finished as a working pile.

Martin


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## Forerunner

Rome....poke into those piles a few inches and see what's going on before you take any drastic measures.


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## Rafter B

I have missed seeing your steaming piles there Forerunner.


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## Forerunner

A pile will generally steam for a short while (few days, couple weeks, maybe) after it is properly constructed, save in colder weather, or on those occasional extra brisk summer mornings....or, after a good rain.

The rest of the time, it just sits, stable and insulated, while the microbes party silently within.


----------



## gimpyrancher

bama said:


> not to get the topic off its current track, but we have steam!!!!!!!
> 
> we use a 4 sided pallet-constructed compost bin. we spread what we had from last years pile and restarted over the fall/winter. it is nearly full already. i foresee another compost bin in my future!  yay!


How about pictures of your bin?


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## BigHenTinyBrain

My butt is sore from sitting here reading this thread! I admit though, I skipped some pages in the middle. 

We're not quite as large scale as you extremists, but I sure do love a handsome compost pile. In fact, I was so impressed and envious of the pictures that I went and began spring clean-out in the sheep pen. I like to get it done before snow melt, so I can haul it in loads on a tarp across the snow. I get a lot more moved than by using a wheelbarrow. Maybe soon I'll have my own giant pile pictures to share.


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## Forerunner

We're gunna hold yuh to it. 

We like pichers. :heh:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> A pile will generally steam for a short while (few days, couple weeks, maybe) after it is properly constructed, save in colder weather, or on those occasional extra brisk summer mornings....or, after a good rain.
> 
> The rest of the time, it just sits, stable and insulated, while the microbes party silently within.


I agree. I dug into my 15'x 30' pile yesterday after the rain. when I got more to the middle she was warm and staming. The outside was powder dry.

So I am mixing in the 2' foot insulation to the middle mixed with the old middle and adding some wetting agent (water and natural nitrogen - urine). Supposed to rain more nex week.

Even the city compost was not very good this year due to lack of water. It was more like what they call mulch. Bt it was a winter mix mostly dry matter to start with. The summer mix is always better stuff. I might have that backwards. Anyway the stuff made with green grinder tub offal is always better stuff.

I am still a newbie to composting. This is my first big pile. I think I really did not put enough water on it to start with.


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## Paquebot

One of my compost piles never did freeze solid and was still working in February when an unseasonable heavy rain "put the fire out". That pile was about 6x8 at the base and almost pure white oak leaves. I've had piles work longer but they were also larger. This one was made to remain untouched between onions on one side and garlic on the other. No provision for turning since it was to entirely fill a defined area. Deer hide was later draped over the top and helped prevent some of the heat from escaping but it was only a small doe and thus not a big area was covered. Today, pile looked just about what it looked like in October except a few feet lower. Everything on the surface looked just as I dumped it, as would be expected with an un-turned pile. However, when the outer 3 or 4 inches were raked off, what's visible is almost black as coal and barely recognizable as having been leaves. The thoroughness of the bacterial action didn't surprise me although this was the first time for nearly 100% white oak in its own pile. Now need to decide what to use it for since it is true compost and not leaf mold. Total NPK would be just a little less than horse manure but with the added benefit of more humus. Almost hate to use it on garden plots which I'm only renting but it will certainly improve things for the next generation.

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

Martin - I like the deer hide tarp idea. In VA my piles get too wet and in FL my piles dry out too much. The hide would probably go a long ways towards fixing both probs. I've got a few wild hog hides I'm going to put to use like that.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Even the city compost was not very good this year due to lack of water. It was more like what they call mulch. Bt it was a winter mix mostly dry matter to start with. The summer mix is always better stuff. I might have that backwards. Anyway the stuff made with green grinder tub offal is always better stuff.


I have a problem with all city mulch inasmuch as there is no way to determine what it is comprised of. It's been almost 30 years since I had a spring load delivered here and that was before the new chippers which produce small bits. With a lot of large branches in the lot, I recognized privet which may be allelopathic to some plants. Certain yews, dogwood, and cedar may also be allelopathic. As a result, I'm more than willing to expend 10 times the effort to create my own from known material than take a chance of losing a garden season.

Martin


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> Martin - I like the deer hide tarp idea. In VA my piles get too wet and in FL my piles dry out too much. The hide would probably go a long ways towards fixing both probs. I've got a few wild hog hides I'm going to put to use like that.


It was almost comical as to what transpired when I removed the outer layer of dry leaves plus the quite dry hide. Bagging/mulching mower was next step to reduce the un-composted leaves to tiny bits and include the deer hide. When the mower and hide combined, there was a cloud of hair over a huge area. Of course, the rock-hard hide suddenly became as soft as a pair of lapin gloves and wrapped itself around the mower blade. Eventually it broke up into smaller bits which are either in the tumbler or bagged for taking to the community garden plots. All the time that this was happening, there was a cable TV guy up on a pole not 10' away and I wonder how he later may have described what he saw. 

Covering a pile with plastic or similar is common to keep excess rain out and heat in. A huge pile of equal to 150 bags of leaves one time was covered with 3 or 4 doe skins with only a small "chimney" in the center. That was my "beaver lodge" pile which totally consumed 7 deer heads and the offal and other nasty bits associated with same. That one remained working until about this time and then roughly turned. The hides were somewhat worked in and month or so later were just a strange form of brown soil. Through it all, there was never a foul smell. Reason for that is that everything was cooked, not rotten.

Martin


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## Forerunner

I would have enjoyed the visual of a cloud of whitetail hair suddenly filling that small portion of the day.

Poof........ know what I mean.


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> It was almost comical as to what transpired when I removed the outer layer of dry leaves plus the quite dry hide. Bagging/mulching mower was next step to reduce the un-composted leaves to tiny bits and include the deer hide.


You like to work your compost more than I do. my chore list is too long to rework compost. When I use a pile, I use the whole pile knowing I'm getting a mix of finished, partially finished, and un-composted parts. Once it is spread, I called the finished stuff dirt and the unfinished parts mulch and act like I planned it that way. 

My exception to this is when making potting soil. Then I will sift the compost to get it to just fines.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> I would have enjoyed the visual of a cloud of whitetail hair suddenly filling that small portion of the day.
> 
> Poof........ know what I mean.


Apparently composters never sleep. Go to bed Martin and Forerunner. Your piles will continue to work all night without you guys staying up to microbe-sit.


----------



## Forerunner

Speak for yourself, Night Owl.


----------



## Studhauler

3 am; that is almost time wake up and get the day started.


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> I have a problem with all city mulch inasmuch as there is no way to determine what it is comprised of. It's been almost 30 years since I had a spring load delivered here and that was before the new chippers which produce small bits. With a lot of large branches in the lot, I recognized privet which may be allelopathic to some plants. Certain yews, dogwood, and cedar may also be allelopathic. As a result, I'm more than willing to expend 10 times the effort to create my own from known material than take a chance of losing a garden season.
> 
> Martin


So far nothings has proved to be a problem. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> You like to work your compost more than I do. my chore list is too long to rework compost. When I use a pile, I use the whole pile knowing I'm getting a mix of finished, partially finished, and un-composted parts. Once it is spread, I called the finished stuff dirt and the unfinished parts mulch and act like I planned it that way.
> 
> My exception to this is when making potting soil. Then I will sift the compost to get it to just fines.


If you can understand it, this was not a compost pile. The only work involved in making it was 2 stops at one location during a project to haul 50 pickup loads to the community gardens. It was 100% shredded white oak leaves which I was not about to give to someone who may not appreciate it. Where it had to be sited was between onion and garlic beds, neighbor's fence, and my strawberry bed. Also had to be temporary and thus it can't be left beyond another month. Since the outer layer of any pile does not break down on its own, it was raked off and run through the mower to speed up the process. That was the first physical work on that pile since established in October and barely enough to break a sweat. 

Since it has to be gone within a month so as to be able to use that area for something more productive, still has time to break down a little more. Because of its size and the limited area to work with, that would be a bit of a chore to try to mix it in place. That was accomplished yesterday and again barely enough effort to produce a few beads of sweat. The solution to that was the Mantis tiller. In less than 10 minutes, every bit of that pile had been mixed and broken down even more than before. Next effort expended will be bagging and carrying it 100' to the truck and then to my garden plots. May even use the mower to suck it up so I don't have to shovel or fork it.

Remember one thing about compost. No matter how much sweat is expended to produce it, it's worth every drop. 

Martin


----------



## bassmaster17327

There is a person a few miles away that always has a sign out that says "free horse manure", there is usually a pile of manure/straw mix there. If I mixed that with more straw about how long would it take before it is safe to use in the garden? I do not care if all the straw is not composted as long as it does not burn the plants


----------



## Paquebot

bassmaster17327 said:


> There is a person a few miles away that always has a sign out that says "free horse manure", there is usually a pile of manure/straw mix there. If I mixed that with more straw about how long would it take before it is safe to use in the garden? I do not care if all the straw is not composted as long as it does not burn the plants


It's an easy system to follow, use it as is. If pure and somewhat fresh manure, apply 5 gallons per 10 square feet of surface area. If approximately 50/50 manure/straw, apply 10 gallons. Till it in thoroughly to the point where none of the manure is recognizable. At that rate, it will not burn any plants nor create an excess of nitrogen. Otherwise, the answer to how long would be anywhere from 3 months to a year. 

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

bassmaster17327 said:


> There is a person a few miles away that always has a sign out that says "free horse manure", there is usually a pile of manure/straw mix there. If I mixed that with more straw about how long would it take before it is safe to use in the garden? I do not care if all the straw is not composted as long as it does not burn the plants


Sorry, but the answer is it depends. It depends on how much effort you want to put in to it. Get it to a good 25 to 30:1 C:N ratio, turn it daily, seed it with a good slurry of thermophilic microbes, make sure the moisture remains at 40 - 60% and you could have spreadable compost in a few weeks. I suppose if you were trying to get your garden ready for planting, it might be worth that much effort. 

Me, the piles i'm making now are for next year and I don't worry about ratios, moisture, or microbes, except making sure I put in a variety of browns and greens and animals. I pile it and pretty much let nature take its course and a year later, we have dirt. 

Recently I heard somewhere, maybe here in HT but I think not, that some municipal dump was turning yard waste into compost in 5 days. Call me a skeptic. I don't think you can get a good heat cycle in that amount of time unless possibly they are using some sort of waste heat process to literally cook the material. Maybe what they are really doing is making warm mulch, adding working compost to shredded yard waste and calling it good enough. I picked up a truck load of warm mulch from the dump a few days ago. Good stuff, but it isn't finished compost.

ETA: I like Paquebot's answer better. Don't worry about making compost, just dig it in.


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> Recently I heard somewhere, maybe here in HT but I think not, that some municipal dump was turning yard waste into compost in 5 days. Call me a skeptic. I don't think you can get a good heat cycle in that amount of time unless possibly they are using some sort of waste heat process to literally cook the material. Maybe what they are really doing is making warm mulch, adding working compost to shredded yard waste and calling it good enough. I picked up a truck load of warm mulch from the dump a few days ago. Good stuff, but it isn't finished compost.


That can only be accomplished in a continuous tumbler operation. The ones that I'm personally familiar with each handle 250 tons. When they first went into operation, the website mentioned that roadkill deer totally vanish in the 5 days that it takes for them to work from one end to the other. In this operation, the material is still active when it comes out and is screened before entering a second heat cycle.

www.co.columbia.wi.us/columbiacounty/solidwaste/CoCompostinginformation/tabid/511/Default.aspx

Martin


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## Forerunner

Is the material ground to any specific consistency before or during the process ?
I'm going to have some difficulty believing that five days at 155 degrees, roughly, is going to disintegrate all bones of a deer-sized carcass.....without grinding.......not to say it's impossible, but I'm skeptical without seeing for myself.

Ehrenfried Pfeiffer had some pretty cool stuff going on in the fifties-ish, on a municipal scale, (several, across the country, in fact) but his operations called for grinding the material twice, inoculating with a spray containing 60-some strains of bacteria (if I correctly recall) and then turning several times to make a stable compost in days.

I'd be happy (er) just being able to consistently build piles with a perfect C/N balance, let alone grinding, inoculating and regular turning.
A few days just isn't enough time to get well acquainted with a compost pile, to where you feel like you're friends by the time you spread it. :shrug:


----------



## bassmaster17327

Thanks, I still have about five weeks before most of the garden goes in. I have never grown potatoes and thw woman at the feed mill said they should go in now so they will be put in this weekend.


----------



## Forerunner

The straw portion of your mix would go great between the rows of your taters, after they germinate.

The manure portion would go great, tilled in under your sweet corn ptch.

The blend would go great in a pile the steam from which you could enjoy for several weeks, each cool morning, over a cup of coffee, while you sit on the veranda and contemplate the structure of your day. 

Taters don't appreciate raw manure, nor uncomposted carcasses.......... :shrug:


----------



## RomeGrower

I pulled out 3 buckets of my pile yesterday and it was black and wet. (We've had a good amount of rain lately) I mixed it with light fluffy compost and the clay I dug out of the new bed for rhubarb. Mixed it about equally with the bottom layer of natural soil maddocked up loosely and forked it all up. Planted 3 rhubarb plants and now hoping for super growth.


----------



## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> Is the material ground to any specific consistency before or during the process ?
> I'm going to have some difficulty believing that five days at 155 degrees, roughly, is going to disintegrate all bones of a deer-sized carcass.....without grinding.......not to say it's impossible, but I'm skeptical without seeing for myself.


Nothing is ground ahead of time. It's like a slow-cooker. You put in a solid chunk of the toughest beef and cook it for 10-12 hours and suddenly it falls apart. Rabbits, squirrels, opossums, groundhogs, pigeons, sparrows, etc. totally vanish in a single heat cycle in my tumbler and that's only turning once a day. Industrial tumblers turn with much more frequency and the material is exposed to constant aeration. Such systems have been common in Europe for over 75 years. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Deer ? Leg bones ? Five days ?


Do you know....was it Ehrenfried Pfeiffer who pioneered the European industrial grade composting ?


----------



## Paquebot

Pfeiffer came much later and learned from the Europeans. The Danes, for example, were working on such a system already in 1933 which could produce 150 tons per day.

In 1974, I saw a train in the Netherlands comprised entirely of a string of black hopper cars similar to a coal train here. Each car had huge white letters on the sides, COMPOST. 

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> That can only be accomplished in a continuous tumbler operation. The ones that I'm personally familiar with each handle 250 tons. When they first went into operation, the website mentioned that roadkill deer totally vanish in the 5 days that it takes for them to work from one end to the other. In this operation, the material is still active when it comes out and is screened before entering a second heat cycle.
> 
> www.co.columbia.wi.us/columbiacounty/solidwaste/CoCompostinginformation/tabid/511/Default.aspx
> 
> Martin


Very cool, but it isn't compost in 5 days. That website has a 5 day process followed by an 8 week process. That I find quite believable. I would love to see the world move towards that type of technology. 

But before I used that compost on pastures, I would want to see some testing and analysis done. Anything less than 3/4" in the waste stream can end up in the compost. That could include hazardous liquids, metal and plastic bits that cattle might ingest, and who knows what else. 

For decades Palm beach COunty, FL has had a waste to electric system http://www.swa-wteproject.com/about/ When my DW was a teacher there, we would take kids to tour the facilities. Another impressive use of "waste", and it does a great job of eliminating hazmats.


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> Very cool, but it isn't compost in 5 days. That website has a 5 day process followed by an 8 week process. That I find quite believable. I would love to see the world move towards that type of technology.


That's why I mentioned that it was still active when it comes out. It's finished by the more passive system of piles or windrows. Larger European operations which use the tumbler system do it in one operation with screening being the final step before leaving as finished compost. 

Martin


----------



## Little_Bit_Red

FORERUNNER - I have a composting question. And, I don't mean to put anyone off, but......can the paper/cloth/cotton parts of fem. hygiene products be composted, in something like where you put offal/roadkill??? Or could there be too many chemicals? Thanks....


----------



## Forerunner

Composting would be the best way to recycle the nutrients lost, and to render those chemicals more neutral than any other process available to us that I am aware of.
The inorganic portions could always be picked out later.

Bringing in material from municipal yard waste dumps and sale barns, we spend a little time picking trash every time we weed the garden, spread compost or go for a walk around the wheat fields. :shrug:


----------



## CesumPec

Little_Bit_Red said:


> FORERUNNER - I have a composting question. And, I don't mean to put anyone off, but......can the paper/cloth/cotton parts of fem. hygiene products be composted, in something like where you put offal/roadkill??? Or could there be too many chemicals? Thanks....


blood is a good source of N and greatly aids in making compost. Blood meal is dried blood from a slaughterhouse and is a fairly fast acting high N fertilizer. So from that perspective, yes. 

As to the possibility of passing a human disease to one of your critters or another human? I haven't read any science to back up my opinion, but if there are pathogens in your blood, they probably need blood to live. Put the pathogens in an inhospitable hot compost pile and let the microbes chew and crunch on the pathogens and I don't see how the pathogens could survive. But you might want to make sure pigs, who I'm told are more likely to get human diseases, stay out of the pile for several months. 

As to the possibility of prescription drugs remaining in the compost and causing some damage? As I recall, the book Humanure gave that an OK. There is such a minute amount of the drug and it gets spread over a big pile which gets spread over a big area of garden and all the microbes get to do their thing. Even if the drugs don't break down, they get spread out over such a large area that they are of no consequence. 

As to the possibility that there are uncompostable plastic pieces in the lady products? I don't know enough about the things to know if the cotton portions are really cotton or some sort of synthetic material. Google might know or you might need to consult the manufacturer. 

Would I open up my compost pile to everyone in the neighborhood to come and dump used tampons? No. But I would not worry a minute about a basically healthy family member doing so - as long as i resolved the plastic question. I'm happy to get humanure added to my compost piles and that is going to have most of the same issues of blood.


----------



## am1too

My neighbor is scared about persistent pesticides. I am going and you buy your food where?

So does anyone know much about these persistent pesticides? Why would they not be like other chemical toxins?

I think his site is a scare you site. They give this high pollutant scare and refuse to name any of them.


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> My neighbor is scared about persistent pesticides. I am going and you buy your food where?
> 
> So does anyone know much about these persistent pesticides? Why would they not be like other chemical toxins?
> 
> I think his site is a scare you site. They give this high pollutant scare and refuse to name any of them.


Are you sure he isn't going on about persistent herbicides? Or parasiticides?


----------



## RomeGrower

Can I put mixed bedding from my piles around my apple trees instead of 10-10-10? The pile is 1 month old on my property and I'm not sure how long it was sitting at the sale barn. What do you think? My apple trees are 2 and 3 years old. Our soil is pretty heavy clay.


----------



## Forerunner

I'd go for it, RG....just keep the material pulled back a few inches from the trunk, so's to allow for air flow and to lessen the chance of bugs taking up comfortable residence where they can damage the trunk.

Don't lay it in so deep that it will heat, but enough to cover.
The rains will take the nutrients down where you want 'em, soon enough.


----------



## RomeGrower

Thanks Forerunner. I'll get that done this weekend amongst all the other gardening we'll have going on. I was hoping for a more organic solution to fertilizing my trees. Will that also work for blueberries, blackberries and strawberries?


----------



## Forerunner

Strawberries, especially....... blackberries too.

I have no experience with blueberries, so don't know their preferences.....


----------



## OffGridCooker

My wife has invented a new composting method I think is very clever, "Counter Top Composting".
She just lets the food rot on the counter unless I take it out!


----------



## Forerunner

You might should consider just go ahead and build a pallet bin for her in the corner of the kitchen......and don't forget to commune frequently with the pile.

Maybe she'll take the hint.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> Strawberries, especially....... blackberries too.
> 
> I have no experience with blueberries, so don't know their preferences.....


Your Blueberries are acid lovers, so they would be fine, although you wouldn't want to mulch too thick around the base of them (they are also shallow rooted). I add mulch of wood chops from Evergreens, as it adds more acid (mixed with the needles).


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Are you sure he isn't going on about persistent herbicides? Or parasiticides?


OK persistent herbicides. Opps


----------



## CesumPec

Persistent herbicides are a real problem. Here's a site for a commercial compost seller who explains the problem and how much it cost them. Since the herbicide is sprayed on pasture and can survive a journey which includes haying, a trip thru the horse, a stay in a hot compost pile, and then 3 more years of sitting in the garden, these herbicides are pure Big Ag chemical evil. 

Maybe someone with more knowledge than me knows of a viable strategy, but I don't see how you can avoid the stuff if you import hay or manure except by luck. 

http://www.greenmountaincompost.com/all-about-compost/compost-persistent-herbicides-fact-sheet/


----------



## RomeGrower

Great. I'll get back to the piles again and spread the love. It's bugging me that the piles shrink though. I'm starting to want to go back to the sale barn again.


----------



## Forerunner

"_Starting_ to want to"......" :huh:


You mean you, like, _stopped_ wanting to......at some point ?


This is a really bad sign. :hrm:


----------



## Paquebot

RomeGrower said:


> Great. I'll get back to the piles again and spread the love. It's bugging me that the piles shrink though.


When your manure piles shrink, what you are losing is water. As they shrink, they become richer as the nutrients are less diluted and that's a good thing.

Martin


----------



## RomeGrower

Ok, I never stopped wanting to, but I now mean REALLY wanting to and trying to figure out how to get a truck again for a day since my son is in Athens at college still. Can I borrow yours FR? 

PQ I'm glad to hear we're getting richer by the day!


----------



## Forerunner

My tractors and dump wagons are available for any of ya'll willing to make the trip.


----------



## RomeGrower

Hmm. Gas for coming from Illinois to Georgia kind of kills that idea. We would make good neighbors though I think. Thanks for the offer.


----------



## Forerunner

I offered the use of my wood chipper to Cesum-P a few weeks back, and he had the same lame excuse.

:indif:


----------



## RomeGrower

Well how about we just take over a State somewhere with all of us homesteaders so we can share things better and preserve what God has given us to use on this earth. That might be a good new thread you think?


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> Persistent herbicides are a real problem. Here's a site for a commercial compost seller who explains the problem and how much it cost them. Since the herbicide is sprayed on pasture and can survive a journey which includes haying, a trip thru the horse, a stay in a hot compost pile, and then 3 more years of sitting in the garden, these herbicides are pure Big Ag chemical evil.
> 
> Maybe someone with more knowledge than me knows of a viable strategy, but I don't see how you can avoid the stuff if you import hay or manure except by luck.
> 
> http://www.greenmountaincompost.com/all-about-compost/compost-persistent-herbicides-fact-sheet/


 So the real issue is what these chemicals do to plants and not what they do to animal or human life. So far I found nothing to indicate adverse affects unless absurd amount are present.


----------



## YamahaRick

RomeGrower said:


> Well how about we just take over a State somewhere with all of us homesteaders so we can share things better and preserve what God has given us to use on this earth. That might be a good new thread you think?


RG, I've been actively looking for land in nearby Gordon County to start my own operation. Maybe down the road, via growth, we can take over all the remaining undeveloped land in these two counties. As you know, it is disappearing quickly.


----------



## RomeGrower

That would be cool. This is a beautiful part of Georgia and a pretty nice place to live.


----------



## Forerunner

That thread might encompass an entire website, were we to do the subject justice.


----------



## RomeGrower

You're pretty articulate. That might be a good idea. I don't know how the government would look at it. Probably like a compound of extremists or something.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> So the real issue is what these chemicals do to plants and not what they do to animal or human life. So far I found nothing to indicate adverse affects unless absurd amount are present.


About 10 years ago on a soil forum, there was a long thread about the potential danger of anything which could be composted. In the end, there was nothing which could be guaranteed to be 100% safe. 

Martin


----------



## Oswego

I will keep getting my cow manure from the Organic milk dairy to keep from getting unknown bad things in my compost. Mixed with sawdust that should be about as safe as I can get.


----------



## Paquebot

Oswego said:


> I will keep getting my cow manure from the Organic milk dairy to keep from getting unknown bad things in my compost. Mixed with sawdust that should be about as safe as I can get.


If a cow on an Organic dairy farm gets sick, are they left to die or given an antibiotic? If given any such medication, is their manure still Organic?

Martin


----------



## Trisha in WA

Martin, they are treated and sold or sold to be treated elsewhere. They are no longer able to stay in the milk string on an organic farm.


----------



## CesumPec

Info of possible interest to a bunch of extremists, the NPK values for "everything" but their everything does not include farm moralities, road kills, or nosy neighbors. 

http://www.lundproduce.com/N-P-K-Value-of-Everything.html

I found that while looking for the NPK+micros for dead animals. Google hasn't been helpful. Can anyone offer a helpful link?


----------



## Forerunner

Well, I don't know about the NPK value.
That's prolly over-rated, anyhows...

But I do know that my 1983 biology teacher told me that the mature human body was worth, at the time, and in US "dollars".......roughly 97 cents, for trace mineral value alone.

I figure, what with inflation and all, we must each be worth a small fortune by now.
I'm thinkin' a disappearin' for a while and then send some rich relative a ransom note...... you know, a few weeks later. :heh:


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> Info of possible interest to a bunch of extremists, the NPK values for "everything" but their everything does not include farm moralities, road kills, or nosy neighbors.
> 
> http://www.lundproduce.com/N-P-K-Value-of-Everything.html
> 
> I found that while looking for the NPK+micros for dead animals. Google hasn't been helpful. Can anyone offer a helpful link?


NPK value of a human body is 3-1.1-0.25. Birds and animals would have a higher nitrogen value due to their feathers and hair.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Some people are hairier than others.......... :shrug:


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> NPK value of a human body is 3-1.1-0.25. Birds and animals would have a higher nitrogen value due to their feathers and hair.
> 
> Martin


And the micro nutrients? 

That was helpful. And now I have to set up a spreadsheet to compute how many humans/acre are needed to fertilize my land. And given that pines need K and the low K value per human, I'm thinking someone is going to notice Walmart isn't as crowded as it used to be. My plan may need some refinement. 

Actually, the reason i asked is that I use a spreadsheet to calculate by weight the NPK and Organic matter, Ca, B, Mg, Mn, S, and Zn for the sludge I haul in. I have been counting roadkills under organic matter, for lack of anything more accurate. I started this because the sludge is heavy in Ca and high Ph. Per my soil test, I'm moving the Ph in the wrong direction, especially where I'll have berries. But the soil is so poor and only 0.5% OM, so I don't want to stop the sludge. I'll have to bring in some pine needles from elsewhere on the farm and probably buy some S. 

My dump trailer was over filled today. Brought in 8.75 tons of sludge, just 1.25 tons over design limit, and the hydraulics won't lift the dump body. So I have to use the backhoe to pull out the load and hope haven't damaged anything. :Bawling:


----------



## dablack

Well, in a couple of months we will be moving to our 30 acres of clay and pine trees. On the 40 minute drive from the property to work, I pass at least four saw mills/ lumber yards. I've already talked to one cedar place and he will let me have all the saw dust he has if I load it. The pile around back is 20' high and 40' wide. I'm sure I won't have a problem getting other wood products from other mills. 

Where I'm going to have a problem is getting greens. Obviously, I need to look for sale barns, horse barns, and things of that nature. I was also thinking coffee grounds from coffee places but I can't think of any in the area. Is there something else that I could tap into? Any other ideas? 

I will be mowing the area around the house and brush hogging the rest a couple times per year. I would think of getting the grass clippings but the top soil is so poor that I'm thinking it would be better to let the grass lay where it falls. 

thoughts?

thanks
Austin


----------



## Forerunner

CesumPec said:


> My dump trailer was over filled today. Brought in 8.75 tons of sludge, just 1.25 tons over design limit, and the hydraulics won't lift the dump body. So I have to use the backhoe to pull out the load and hope haven't damaged anything. :Bawling:



Find yerself a toothless ditch bucket.....that's what I use to clean my wagons out when necessary. MUCH easier on the woodwork.


----------



## Forerunner

Austin, those piles of sawdust you envision adorning the nether and secluded portions of your domain will be there, happily and very sloooooowly breaking down while you get yourself situated and your N sources lined up.

Commune with the piles, and encourage members of the family to do the same.

Service the community by removing roadkill--- great source of N.

I would let those clippings fall on that poor soil, but there me be yard waste disposal sites around.....

A pile with too much N is a nuisance, at best.

Piles of pure C are priceless resources ever in waiting. 

That said, if you spread your sawdust six inches thick and then work it in, and leave it sit for a year or two, you'll have the beginnings of rich soil. Carbon is the only sponge on earth that will properly accumulate and hold the other nutrients that make great soil.
Pure sand/pure clay will let nutrients slip through. Carbon is the steel trap of the sharp mind of soil nutrition. Start your organic trap line, today! :bouncy:


----------



## am1too

dablack said:


> Well, in a couple of months we will be moving to our 30 acres of clay and pine trees. On the 40 minute drive from the property to work, I pass at least four saw mills/ lumber yards. I've already talked to one cedar place and he will let me have all the saw dust he has if I load it. The pile around back is 20' high and 40' wide. I'm sure I won't have a problem getting other wood products from other mills.
> 
> Where I'm going to have a problem is getting greens. Obviously, I need to look for sale barns, horse barns, and things of that nature. I was also thinking coffee grounds from coffee places but I can't think of any in the area. Is there something else that I could tap into? Any other ideas?
> 
> I will be mowing the area around the house and brush hogging the rest a couple times per year. I would think of getting the grass clippings but the top soil is so poor that I'm thinking it would be better to let the grass lay where it falls.
> 
> thoughts?
> 
> thanks
> Austin


Any convience store should generate lots of grounds. Any donut shops?


----------



## dablack

FR,

6" thick? WOW! I was thinking I would spread it out about an 1" thick and let it break down on the surface. I don't have the tools to till it in right now but I'm sure I could rent something for my little 30hp kubota. That would for sure put the organic mater where I needed it. I am worried about trying to till between the pine trees. Most of those roots are not very deep. Obviously, in the garden area, the trees are coming out so I will try it there first. 


Am1too,

Didn't think of the convinence stores! That is perfect. I pass at least five of those places. I could drop off a bucket on my way home and pick it up in the morning (or the otherway).

hmmmmm this might just work.

thanks
Austin


----------



## Paquebot

dablack said:


> FR,
> 
> 6" thick? WOW! I was thinking I would spread it out about an 1" thick and let it break down on the surface. I don't have the tools to till it in right now but I'm sure I could rent something for my little 30hp kubota. That would for sure put the organic mater where I needed it. I am worried about trying to till between the pine trees. Most of those roots are not very deep. Obviously, in the garden area, the trees are coming out so I will try it there first.


6" of cedar sawdust would guarantee a problem for next 10 years. Even if you had a plow or tiller which went a foot deep, that would result in 33% wood of a type which takes years to break down. 15% at a time is about maximum with normal wood but only if there is a nitrogen source to go under with it. 

Martin


----------



## Oswego

Look for pine or hardwood sawdust or shavings, cedar does not break down fast. And for sure do not get cypress.


----------



## Forerunner

Spreading sawdust where you don't plan to crop wouldn't require tilling.

Spreading cedar sawdust wouldn't be advantageous except for among the pines and cedars. 

Use your cedar sawdust for those communing piles.

Are we talking white cedar, or red cedar ?


----------



## dablack

We are talking red. 

We are going to start with some raised beds (just to start). Maybe I can use it between the beds as weed suppression.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Spreading sawdust where you don't plan to crop wouldn't require tilling.
> 
> Spreading cedar sawdust wouldn't be advantageous except for among the pines and cedars.
> 
> Use your cedar sawdust for those communing piles.
> 
> Are we talking white cedar, or red cedar ?


I thought cedar would be cedar. Do they indeed have different break down properties? y wood chips usually come mixed with eastern red cedar.


----------



## Forerunner

Red Cedar is more resistant to rot.

Using the stuff between raised beds for weed suppression is an excellent idea.
One could grow crops in the beds for some time while the sawdust breaks down and then incorporate the whole area......all the while adding nitrogen every time it comes available.

Do you have access to sawdust _other_ than cedar?


----------



## dablack

Other than cedar? I sure hope so. On the way between work and the new property, I pass a place that makes poles, a big saw mill operation (their pile is about 45' high), and a place that makes rail road ties (sweat gum?). I'm sure there are two or three more places just a little off my normal path if I looked. 

I'm really hoping that I can get a load from whom ever every work day. I don't know how much a 1990 F250 can hold (2 yards?) but it would be great if I could bring home 20 loads a month. That would really bring home lots of material quickly. 

I'm thinking I'm going to find an unload spot at the bottom of one of my steep hills so gravity will help me unload. 

thanks
Austin


----------



## Oswego

I know its a dumb time to ask(already did it) but was it okay for me to pour the almost half gallon of milk that had worked its way behind something in the frig and stayed hidden past the smell test in the compost pile.


----------



## am1too

dablack said:


> Other than cedar? I sure hope so. On the way between work and the new property, I pass a place that makes poles, a big saw mill operation (their pile is about 45' high), and a place that makes rail road ties (sweat gum?). I'm sure there are two or three more places just a little off my normal path if I looked.
> 
> I'm really hoping that I can get a load from whom ever every work day. I don't know how much a 1990 F250 can hold (2 yards?) but it would be great if I could bring home 20 loads a month. That would really bring home lots of material quickly.
> 
> I'm thinking I'm going to find an unload spot at the bottom of one of my steep hills so gravity will help me unload.
> 
> thanks
> Austin


If you have an 8' bed it should be almost 3 yrds level full. If you put sides on it you should be able to get 6 yrds easy unless it is real wet. Then it could b a weight problem. I get 3 yrds wet compost dumped on my 8' bed with no tarp. Does jack the nose a might on a 1/2 ton pea cup.


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> I know its a dumb time to ask(already did it) but was it okay for me to pour the almost half gallon of milk that had worked its way behind something in the frig and stayed hidden past the smell test in the compost pile.


i'd say yep and cover it at least an inch to keep flies off.


----------



## CesumPec

dablack said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to find an unload spot at the bottom of one of my steep hills so gravity will help me unload.


prior to getting a dump trailer, I emptied my P/U bed using a ******* engineered unloader. It is an almost bed wide piece of 6x6 with a couple of lag bolts in it. Put the lumber in the bed, next to the cab. Attach a chain or loading strap to the lags and lay chain on the bed so that the free end hangs out the tail end. Load your mulch, manure, etc on top of the lumber and chain. 

When you get to where you want to unload, hook a second strap around a tree and to your free end of chain on the bed. Drive the truck slowly away from the tree and the lumber will drag out most of the load in just a few seconds. 

This solution is like a back alley hooker, cheap and easy.


----------



## BigHenTinyBrain

Oswego said:


> I know its a dumb time to ask(already did it) but was it okay for me to pour the almost half gallon of milk that had worked its way behind something in the frig and stayed hidden past the smell test in the compost pile.


I put everything in the compost pile. Milk turns to dirt, too.


----------



## Forerunner

Spoiled milk, to compost microbes, is like chocolate milk, to an 8 year old.

'Nuff said.


----------



## 3ravens

Forerunner said:


> Spoiled milk, to compost microbes, is like chocolate milk, to an 8 year old.
> 
> 'Nuff said.


However, you should not compost the 8 year old. Although my 8 year old DGS sometimes has enough dirt on him to BE compost...... :grin:


----------



## Ross

3ravens said:


> However, you should not compost the 8 year old. Although my 8 year old DGS sometimes has enough dirt on him to BE compost...... :grin:


Look the assigned moderators to this thread are expecting the best from you guys,.....................if you're going to go and compost grandchildren, you're going to create work here and completely spoil the relationship that's been promoted here. Please source your components with deference to the established normal society. How ever out of touch it may be! That is all.


----------



## Forerunner

Ross, did you know that, in 1983, you were worth approximately 97 cents (for your trace mineral value, that is) ? :heh:


----------



## BigHenTinyBrain

Ross it's the EXTREME composting thread. Isn't the nature of extreme-ness that it get more and more extreme? So you may be working against the tide (of compost).


----------



## CesumPec

Oswego said:


> I know its a dumb time to ask(already did it) but was it okay for me to pour the almost half gallon of milk that had worked its way behind something in the frig and stayed hidden past the smell test in the compost pile.


some people use diluted milk either in their irrigation system or via a tank sprayer to spread on pastures. Reportedly it produces great results in the form of vigorous grass growth.


----------



## lurnin2farm

After watching the video back to eden and reading through this thread I was determined to get this started this year. bout 3 weeks ago tree trimmers started trimming down my road for the power companies. * truckloads later and I have a nice pile started. Now I just need manure. 

We did get a little rain the other day and digging around today I see I have steam coming out from where I dug. There isn't much green in the pile. mostly some green pine needles as the trees are just starting to bud. I would guess the green from the pine needles is only about 5% of the total pile. How much is this going to break down my piles? I'm guessing its sort of like fuel for the compost. Once its burned up everything else stops. Is that correct? 

Tomorrow a friend is bringing me a truckload of cow manure from his dads an hr away. Since I dont have a truck I am appreciative of it anyway. There are also a couple of horse places within 10 minutes of me advertising free manure. If I could talk them into free delivery I would be very happy . I already have to unload and build the piles by hand. Good way to get the summer metabolism started .


----------



## Forerunner

CesumPec said:


> some people use diluted milk either in their irrigation system or via a tank sprayer to spread on pastures. Reportedly it produces great results in the form of vigorous grass growth.




No way !

Did you know that _vigorous grass growth_ is reported to produce *great results* in _milk production_ ?!!!

I sense a conspiracy.........

:run:


----------



## Forerunner

lurnin2farm said:


> There isnt much green in the pile. mostly some green pine leaves as the trees are just starting to bud. I would guess the green from the pine needles is only about 5% of the total pile. How much is this going to break down my piles? I'm guessing its sort of like fuel for the compost. Once its burned up everything else stops. Is that correct?


Almost correct, but the pile won't stop working, though it will slow down until you get that cow manure mixed in. 
I just guess, between the chips, the cow manure, the potential for horse stall cleanings.......close by...... _and_ summer metabolism figured in, that I don't see where is the problem. :indif:





:grin:


----------



## lurnin2farm

Slowin down is ok by me. I'll try to keep it fueled up though. I'll get some pics later today.


----------



## dablack

CesumPec said:


> prior to getting a dump trailer, I emptied my P/U bed using a ******* engineered unloader. It is an almost bed wide piece of 6x6 with a couple of lag bolts in it. Put the lumber in the bed, next to the cab. Attach a chain or loading strap to the lags and lay chain on the bed so that the free end hangs out the tail end. Load your mulch, manure, etc on top of the lumber and chain.
> 
> When you get to where you want to unload, hook a second strap around a tree and to your free end of chain on the bed. Drive the truck slowly away from the tree and the lumber will drag out most of the load in just a few seconds.
> 
> This solution is like a back alley hooker, cheap and easy.


Being an actual ******* engineer I am HIGHLY ......... impressed with your unload method. Sounds like a plan to me.

thanks
Austin


----------



## CesumPec

we FINALLY got some rain. first time in months that it was more than just a few drops. My piles said thank you. When i got to the farm this morning, the piles that had received a dose of sludge were all steaming. 

I rescued the dump trailer with no damage. I just over loaded it last time. Once I pulled a few thousand pounds of poo out the back, it went up just fine, with only a small hydra hose leak that was fixed by tightening the connection. Delivered two loads today and all worked well.

Dablack - when I tried to ******* dump loose stuff, like sticks that had not been chipped, I had to add a piece of plywood to the 6x6 to make a bigger drag. But when just dumping manure or tight packed chips, the 6x6 worked just fine.


----------



## Oswego

I have a low spot where I wanted to build my next pile. I now plan to build the ******* unloader, put it on the trailer, alternate my loads with manure and sawdust. I'll back trailer up to low spot, chain front of trailer to tree and have tractor on other side of spot to drag stuff off trailer into low spot and build next pile with minimum shovel/pitchfork use. I can mix the manure and sawdust with tractor bucket after each trailer load.
Thanks for the idea.


----------



## CesumPec

I do apologize for not mentioning this sooner, but the ******* unloader is ******* patented. While normally a beer or two is considered adequate payment for any ******* debt, I'm holding out for a load of manure or saw dust, ...or the ham of a wild hog.


----------



## Oswego

CesumPec said:


> I do apologize for not mentioning this sooner, but the ******* unloader is ******* patented. While normally a beer or two is considered adequate payment for any ******* debt, I'm holding out for a load of manure or saw dust, ...or the ham of a wild hog.


How about a load of BS, I can call and give it to you or talk about it here


----------



## Forerunner

Just so long as there's no growth hormones or persistent herbicides in it, we're good to go. :nono:


----------



## lurnin2farm

I owe some photos that I promised . The first photo with the bucket has a truckload of manure mixed in already. All mixing done by hand with lots of love . The 2nd photo is what I have left to mix when I get some nitrogen. I need at least 10 truckloads I figure. Had a neighbor stop by with a bob cat yesterday and push that back some for me. Now I can get another 6 loads or so of chips in there too. I also have 2 other spots on the property where they can dump chips so I should be able to take them all summer.


----------



## lurnin2farm

This was the piles before I started.


----------



## Forerunner

You evil, _evil_ man, Lurnin2 !! 

Just _*look*_ at all those innocent chips that you've robbed and constructively repurposed from some needy and forlorn landfill.

The nerve !

The atrocity !

I'm tellin' the Grumpy Old Men on you. :heh:


----------



## lurnin2farm

I'm blaming it all on you. :nana: you started this mess. . 
So far 10 loads they didnt have to drive 30 miles round trip to dump. 300 miles saved plus wear and tear on the trucks. Not sure if they have to pay to dump it but if they do then more savings. Sheesh, I'm single handedly destroying the economy. :dance:


----------



## Rafter B

thank you lurning2farm. always love pictures. nice work


----------



## CesumPec

Oswego said:


> How about a load of BS, I can call and give it to you or talk about it here


LOL

Sadly, even though Cow S works great in the compost pile, Bull S just hangs around forever, stinking up the place.


----------



## CesumPec

lurnin2farm - thanks for the photos. nice photos, nice piles, nice tree lot. 

Where in Ohio? I used to live in Oxford, home of the real Miami U. I thought long and hard about retiring there but my in laws would have been too close and Ohio has all those pesky laws about composting your MIL.


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> LOL
> 
> Sadly, even though Cow S works great in the compost pile, Bull S just hangs around forever, stinking up the place.


Not many people can get real BS. I haven't tried but I'm only about 8 or 9 miles from what is probably the most expensive BS in world. That would be ABS in Windsor, WI.

Martin


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> How about a load of BS, I can call and give it to you or talk about it here


As long as it is fresh and fully soaked with nitrogen I'll take some. Thanks


----------



## Forerunner

Paquebot said:


> Not many people can get real BS. I haven't tried but I'm only about 8 or 9 miles from what is probably the most expensive BS in world.
> Martin



Now why doesn't that surprise me......... :indif:


----------



## lurnin2farm

CesumPec said:


> lurnin2farm - thanks for the photos. nice photos, nice piles, nice tree lot.
> 
> Where in Ohio? I used to live in Oxford, home of the real Miami U. I thought long and hard about retiring there but my in laws would have been too close and Ohio has all those pesky laws about composting your MIL.


I'm just outside of Chillicothe (The first state Capital of Oh) in the hills. Headin to the hills to hunt for some morels as soon as this rain stops.


----------



## lurnin2farm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QIEc6RTTJhU#!

I think this guy did something wrong.


----------



## Forerunner

I still just don't get it.

According to Grumpy Old Men, I'm the biggest screw-up on the block (I'm proud of that fact, BTW.  ) and I've still never had a pile catch fire.

What am I missing here ? :shrug:


----------



## elkhound

i had another truck load delivered for FREE.... i love it when the local guys see you in town and stop in and say hey dog...you wanna load of chips.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> I still just don't get it.
> 
> According to Grumpy Old Men, I'm the biggest screw-up on the block (I'm proud of that fact, BTW.  ) and I've still never had a pile catch fire.
> 
> What am I missing here ? :shrug:


I think the answer to the possible whys are here:

http://www.nachi.org/compost-pile-hazards.htm

It is likely the pile wasn't being monitored, not enough moisture, a build up of methane gas, and air pockets possibly... 

http://thegreenenergyblog.com/uncategorized/preventing-methane-gas-composting


----------



## Joe_Dirt

Forerunner said:


> I've still never had a pile catch fire.


 
As a volunteer firefighter here, we get called to manure shed fires all the time. One place in particular catches at least twice a year. It's nuts.


----------



## PFS farmer

Been trying to read this entire thing from page one. I think I quit bout page 14 and hopefully finish it this year......lol.

Awesome and great information. 

Questions. Found a cabinet shop willing to give me their sawdust/shavings. I told guy I would use for compost and gardening mulch. He said I could have all I wanted, but be warned there maybe some trash, nails and maple. MAPLE? HUH? Whats the big deal? He said maple attracts sugar ants and they will get in your compost and garden. 

So my question is what do I do? As they will not separate the shavings/sawdust. Has anyone else experienced this?


----------



## Forerunner

Maple sawdust is as good as any.

Wive's tales abound.

Welcome to our humble humus.


----------



## CesumPec

I agree with FR. I can't think of any sawdust that isn't pressure treated that I would turn down. Even if maple did attract ants, so what? Compost heat will deter ants. If that doesn't work, ants and most any other life in the pile will speed decomposition. 

Of course this is assuming your pile is not in the middle of your living room. Then I could understand the potential issue. But even FR hasn't gone that extreme. Perhaps I shouldn't have given him the idea.


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, right.....like that didn't cross my mind, like, a hundred years ago, already.

Sheesh.

I was younger then, though, and Mother put her foot down and counted to three....so...... :shrug:


----------



## PFS farmer

Can the Maple sawdust/shavings be used as mulch in the garden?


----------



## Forerunner

I know of nothing about maple that sets it apart from the other basic hardwoods.

I would treat it like any other sawdust.

The only thing is, hard maple sawdust smells really good.


----------



## PFS farmer

Thanx Forerunner!


----------



## Forerunner

Thank me when you have those record tomatoes and taters to show us ! :thumb:


----------



## ChristieAcres

I began using Maple shavings on my raised garden beds about a month ago, so don't have any long term results to share. However, from what I have read, no more than 3 to 4" deep, just as mulch. In addition, I applied a layer of compost manure on top of the soil, then added the Maple shavings on top. So far, everything is happy. I have used Evergreen wood chips around my perennial blooming bushes and they are incredibly happy with no adverse effects.


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah, I think a 2-4 inch layer of compost for mulch would cure the ills of any amount of sawdust as a top coat.

Best of all worlds, right there.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> Yeah, I think a 2-4 inch layer of compost for mulch would cure the ills of any amount of sawdust as a top coat.
> 
> Best of all worlds, right there.


:bouncy:

I looked at my Alpines, which were mulched that way, then compared them to the ones that weren't today... The ones with the extra compost & mulch were twice the size! As the season progresses, the pictures will show the evidence of the results...


----------



## RomeGrower

Went back to the sale barn with my son for two more loads of mixed bedding to really fill up our bins on Friday. What a great time together. That smell and sight just makes us grin and want more of it.


----------



## Waiting2Retire

I joined this site because of this thread, thank you Forerunner! 
If any of you are in Virginia Beach, the barn I work at has a massive amount of fresh manure/urine/shavings with hay thrown in on a pretty daily basis, we have 3 barns, one of which is a full care barn- those horses stay in 12 hours a day (poor guys) and the other 2 have horses that come and go throughout the day for food or riding or vets or farrier, and all the accumulated droppings end up being spread in a small field. 
I cant take advantage of this as I live in a rental with a small lot (i cant even get permission to garden :grumble: ) but I thought maybe one of you could- shoot me a pm and I will give you name of barn- you will have to ask the manager about hauling it off, we are on a base, so Im not sure what the protocol will be.


----------



## Oswego

Wish I was a lot closer


----------



## Gravytrain

Waiting2Retire said:


> I joined this site because of this thread, thank you Forerunner!


Me too!


----------



## RomeGrower

This thread is going dark the last couple of days, so i'll restart it. We put our new rhurbarb in a couple weeks ago with a good mix of mixed bedding and compost. As I left for work this morning in the breaking dawn I could see the beauty of dark green leaves getting bigger and healthier. Thank God for compost/manure.


----------



## Forerunner

You fellers are all so enthusiastic. 

I've been grieving ever since global warming turned out to be a hoax, as of this lingering winter/spring thing we got goin' on.......and I'm hoping that Al Gore will get back on the job and turn the temps up so's a can *grow* tomatoes this year. :sob:


----------



## tabbidawn15

I'll admit I didn't read through all 80 pages, so maybe someone has asked this question before. Do you know anything about/ have any experience with Black soldier flies? I have a few compost piles (much smaller, made out of old pallets) and I've been toying with the idea of getting some larvae to introduce there to help break it all down. Also, I hear if you raise them the chickens love them as treats. Florida is pretty much just sand so composting is the key to my garden growing (existing).


----------



## Forerunner

I've no experience with the black soldier fly larvae, but if you've read good things about the practice elsewhere, and are willing to experiment, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the results, including how it goes with feeding the chickens.

In your warm climate, I can't imagine your piles needing much help in breaking down, moisture and C/N balance being adequate, but without a little trial and error on the side, we'd be a much less educated world.......


ETA....as for reading the rest of the thread, I don't know if you missed anything vital or not, but I am compelled to warn you.....some of our best participants herein have the oddest senses of humor, respectively. :indif:


----------



## CesumPec

tabbidawn15 said:


> I'll admit I didn't read through all 80 pages, so maybe someone has asked this question before. Do you know anything about/ have any experience with Black soldier flies? I have a few compost piles (much smaller, made out of old pallets) and I've been toying with the idea of getting some larvae to introduce there to help break it all down. Also, I hear if you raise them the chickens love them as treats. Florida is pretty much just sand so composting is the key to my garden growing (existing).


I love the idea and plan to try it. Would have already done so, but my neighbor who keeps my chickens (I don't live on my farm full time yet) is wierded out by my habit of bringing home road kills. I'm convinced that for a small backyard flock, other than some nutritional supplements, purchased chicken feed is a luxury.


----------



## Paquebot

You are in an area where soldier flies are normal. However, they are not found in "normal" compost systems. They rely on an abundance of green material and thus such a system would be considered too wet by most standards. Just keep adding more green material such as vegetable scraps. Like it's often said, "build it and they will come."

Martin


----------



## YamahaRick

OK, let's say I have a resource that could supply me with a lot of food waste to compost. I'd need a ~tremendous~ supply of carbon-rich material, right? What potential sources could supply carbon-rich material? My only guess is crews that trim trees. I would probably need a chipper to help speed the breakdown of the trimmings, yes?


----------



## CesumPec

YamahaRick said:


> OK, let's say I have a resource that could supply me with a lot of food waste to compost. I'd need a ~tremendous~ supply of carbon-rich material, right? What potential sources could supply carbon-rich material? My only guess is crews that trim trees. I would probably need a chipper to help speed the breakdown of the trimmings, yes?


I'll play your little game..." I have a resource that could supply me with a lot of food waste to compost."

Hmmm...that lame joke works better verbally. 

If I understand what you are asking, the tree trimmers usually chip their work simply to make it easier/more efficient for them to haul away. But if you are getting bulk branches and logs, like what was left over after my place was logged, if you can smash it down to compact it and use the food wastes to fill it in even tighter, you will get some composting going on. I used a root rake on the loader to smash my piles. 

The problem is that without a good cover over the pile, you could be inviting critters to dig in the pile and you can get decomposition odors. I've got composted sludge to add a cover layer to my piles, so odors aren't much of a problem even though the sludge does smell a bit like distant pig manure. maybe if you can get some chips and hold those back as a cover, you'll have a fix. 

Regardless, the stuff is going to decompose, it is just how long it takes and how bad it smells. I wish we could do a trade. I've got surplus C and will trade for your N.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I love the idea and plan to try it. Would have already done so, but my neighbor who keeps my chickens (I don't live on my farm full time yet) is wierded out by my habit of bringing home road kills. I'm convinced that for a small backyard flock, other than some nutritional supplements, purchased chicken feed is a luxury.


Think I might agree.

Picked up my first road kill deer yesterday. Had already picked up a pet, probably a drop off. Oh did my wet horse stall cleanings send up the steam.


----------



## RomeGrower

I put a young possum that was dead in my yard into my 4 ft. manure pile. Anything else my cats catch is going in.


----------



## PFS farmer

I am considering buying a pto wood chipper for my tractor as I have more mesquite than I can handle at the moment. Is there any objection to using mesquite chips as mulch and compost?


----------



## Forerunner

Any wood chips is better than no wood chips.

That said, I don't think mesquite is quite as resistant to rot as red cedar.

Have at it and let it rot, however long it takes.


----------



## PFS farmer

Thanx Forerunner.

Didnt think it was a big deal, but a friend said what about the sap. I said I dunno it is still wood. They sure make it nice when we harvest for Mesquite Bean Jelly thou!


----------



## CesumPec

PFS farmer said:


> I am considering buying a pto wood chipper for my tractor as I have more mesquite than I can handle at the moment. Is there any objection to using mesquite chips as mulch and compost?


I know someone in Ocala, Fl who says he wants to sell a pto chipper. says it handled 6" material, was red and looked nearly brand new when I briefly saw it in his barn. I think "wood: was in the name, maybe woodmaxx, not sure. He used it to clear his new home lot, so probably not a lot of hours on it. 

If you want info, I'll connect you two. I don't know the guy except that the home builder I'm considering built his net zero house so I toured the home to see the technology and build quality. 

Ive got quite a few hours on chippers so I could test it and give you an unbiased report.


----------



## Paquebot

Mesquite is allelopathic to certain other plants. Main effect is retarding germination. Thus it comes within the "use at your own risk" advice.

Martin


----------



## PFS farmer

CesumPec said:


> I know someone in Ocala, Fl who says he wants to sell a pto chipper. says it handled 6" material, was red and looked nearly brand new when I briefly saw it in his barn. I think "wood: was in the name, maybe woodmaxx, not sure. He used it to clear his new home lot, so probably not a lot of hours on it.
> 
> If you want info, I'll connect you two. I don't know the guy except that the home builder I'm considering built his net zero house so I toured the home to see the technology and build quality.
> 
> Ive got quite a few hours on chippers so I could test it and give you an unbiased report.



Thanx, but I just scored an almost new echo bear cast 5" for $1,500. Guy bought some property from some older people in their 80s and they left it. He said the older couple tried it one time and scared them to death. I have the invoice from 2005 when they bought it. I greased it up and gave it a whirl. Works great. Doesnt care to much for the dry stuff as far as I can tell. It still has the manuals and all the paint is in place.

Anyways Thanx though.


----------



## PFS farmer

Paquebot said:


> Mesquite is allelopathic to certain other plants. Main effect is retarding germination. Thus it comes within the "use at your own risk" advice.
> 
> Martin



Never heard of such a thing......Tell me more.


----------



## CesumPec

I got 10+ tons of wood chips and logs delivered yesterday. A neighbor is clearing a lot so I loaned him my dump trailer in exchange for getting the wood. I wish i could get that much every week. 

When I first bought this place, I had the local County Forester out to evaluate my pines for harvest and give me recommendations/critique for my farm development plans. I let slip the phrase approximating, "I want to begin the process of transforming the sand into soil." 

The forester said that was impossible. I hate it when people tell me I can't do something. 

So my orchard is about ready to plant. It has been amended with 100 tons of sludge, all the wood that was the jungle there previously, plus another 30 tons of wood and chips either compost piled or buried. Where I moved compost piles this week, the soil is magnificently different than the sand that was there. It is full of OM, black, holds water, improved tilth. That's only 2 acres of sand transformation with lots more to go, but I'm happy to see progress being made and that I'm slowly proving the forester wrong. 

I still have a bit of leveling to do and next week I'm planting hairy vetch as a ground cover to further prep the soil prior to the trees going in.


----------



## bja105

CesumPec said:


> "I want to begin the process of transforming the sand into soil."


This got me thinking about the common complaint I hear from people with sand soil, that the nutrients wash away. Where do they wash to? I assume down. How deep is this sand? What lies deep beneath the sand? Bedrock? Clay? Can you dig down to the layer where all the good stuff washed to? Would you have to dig to China? The soil must be good wherever that stuff went.

How about you bring a dump trailer load of sand to my farm, I'll load you a return load of clay? Good deal?


----------



## CesumPec

bja105 said:


> This got me thinking about the common complaint I hear from people with sand soil, that the nutrients wash away. Where do they wash to? I assume down. How deep is this sand? What lies deep beneath the sand? Bedrock? Clay? Can you dig down to the layer where all the good stuff washed to? Would you have to dig to China? The soil must be good wherever that stuff went.
> 
> How about you bring a dump trailer load of sand to my farm, I'll load you a return load of clay? Good deal?


anywhere from 2 to 5 ft below the sand is a sandy clay. ~30' below the surface is limestone and aquifers alternating back and forth down to 500' or so. I buried all the wood to hold water and catch nutrients and am putting in the hairy vetch and comfrey to harvest the deeper nutrients and bring them to the surface. I also stirred the soil down to about 6 ft by pulling stumps so I brought clay up to the surface to mix with the sand to improve tilth. It will take me a few years to prove whether all the effort has been well spent. 

Let's see, I'll bring you free clay if you pay my fuel bill. It costs me about $25/hr to haul a full 7.5 ton load. This ain't gonna be pretty.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Compost question.

I bought 4 yards of green compost. (they said 'green' means it's pure compost, not mixed with top soil)

I added about 2-3 inches of this compost in each of my raised beds.

Do I need to get the tiller out, and till it into my soil, or can I just plant my plants without 'mixing' the compost into the dirt?

Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## CesumPec

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Compost question.
> 
> I bought 4 yards of green compost. (they said 'green' means it's pure compost, not mixed with top soil)
> 
> I added about 2-3 inches of this compost in each of my raised beds.
> 
> Do I need to get the tiller out, and till it into my soil, or can I just plant my plants without 'mixing' the compost into the dirt?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help!


Yikes, I hope I'm wrong about this, but I've never heard of green compost. There are lots of green things that go good in a compost pile, but they come out black if the compost is given half a chance to age and do its composting stuff. If the stuff isn't allowed to age very long, it turns brown. 

Maybe someone else will have a different experience than mine.


----------



## Paquebot

"Green" could also mean that it hasn't been fully cured. If that were the case, the bacteria and other working forms may be still active and would not distinguish between what one wants to plant or what it wants to eat. I'd mix it in and not plant for a week or 10 days to be certain that the microherd will run out of fuel and become inactive. 

Martin


----------



## am1too

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Compost question.
> 
> I bought 4 yards of green compost. (they said 'green' means it's pure compost, not mixed with top soil)
> 
> I added about 2-3 inches of this compost in each of my raised beds.
> 
> Do I need to get the tiller out, and till it into my soil, or can I just plant my plants without 'mixing' the compost into the dirt?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help!


What else did they offer for sale? I am curious, how fine was the material? Was it warm?


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Paquebot said:


> to be certain that the microherd will run out of fuel and become inactive.


*Microherd*


Love that! :grin:


----------



## Paquebot

MullersLaneFarm said:


> *Microherd*
> 
> 
> Love that! :grin:


Yes, that was being "politically correct" for the one or two here who might object if I failed to mention algae, fungi, phages, viruses, etc. which may accompany the usual bacteria at various times during the decomposition process. 

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

Paquebot said:


> Yes, that was being "politically correct" for the one or two here who might object if I failed to mention algae, fungi, phages, viruses, etc. which may accompany the usual bacteria at various times during the decomposition process.
> 
> Martin


Clearly you are a "macrobe" bigot. What have you got against mites, centipedes, sow bugs, snails, millipedes, springtails, spiders, slugs, beetles, ants, flies, nematodes, flatworms, rotifers, and earthworms?


----------



## Laura Zone 5

It is black and crumbly. I didn't notice if it was warm or not? The pile was not 'steaming'.

They also offered pre mixed compost, meaning it was part compost part topsoil.


----------



## Forerunner

It's awful hard telling the value and applicability of a particular batch of compost, especially stuff manufactured for sale, represented in a pitcher online, without all the books and gizmos in Martin's laboratory, but I sure do love the corner shot of that four post bed to the far left in your pitcher.

A big old bed like that, outside, right next to the compost pile (and raised beds, of course)...... now _that's_ the kind of devotion _I'm_ talkin' about ! :bow:


----------



## am1too

Laura Zone 5 said:


> It is black and crumbly. I didn't notice if it was warm or not? The pile was not 'steaming'.
> 
> They also offered pre mixed compost, meaning it was part compost part topsoil.


Wet it down. If it gets warm to hot it is green unfinished compost. The finished stuff will not heat up if I am correct. At least mine does not.


----------



## Paquebot

CesumPec said:


> Clearly you are a "macrobe" bigot. What have you got against mites, centipedes, sow bugs, snails, millipedes, springtails, spiders, slugs, beetles, ants, flies, nematodes, flatworms, rotifers, and earthworms?


All of those consume organic matter and break it down to where it is more readily made into compost or humus by lower forms. The result is the same no matter if it is a sow bug or a sow, an elephant beetle or an elephant. Only the scale of production differs.

Martin


----------



## Laura Zone 5

am1too said:


> Wet it down. If it gets warm to hot it is green unfinished compost. The finished stuff will not heat up if I am correct. At least mine does not.


If it's not done doing it's compost thing, and I plant.....it will burn my plants up, yes?


----------



## Forerunner

I would blend the stuff in with the existing soil and go from there.

Sooner you get on that, and the longer you can wait to plant, the lesser your chances of a burn.

On the other hand, as black and crumbly as that stuff looks, you may be just fine.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

These are photos of my oregano, sage, and lemon balm, that I put the compost all around 2 days ago. 

This is what's left of the 4 yards I ordered. It's not 'hot' (or really warm) when I shove my hand in the middle, and it's definitely not hot in my raised beds.


----------



## romoshka

tabbidawn15 said:


> Do you know anything about/ have any experience with Black soldier flies?


This will be my second year with BSF and hence i am no expert but through my research and my many mistakes I have a handle on em. They do operate in a very moist environment...think oatmeal. Now they will eat almost anything to include manure. As such they have received much attention in 3rd world countries for redux/elimination of humanure. They reduce solids by about 80% to a liquid. As I was about to use this liquid on some veg plants I discovered that there is a company in Oregon that raises BSF strictly for the liquid and dilute it 100:1 and sell that as ready to apply fertilizer. Last year I collected 5 gal of the leachate. I will be trying the dilution on some of my veg plants this year and compare their results to others not treated. I am fortunate to live beside an ag university and am seeking to have aleachate analysis done. There appears to be no data on this in the ag lit. Most of the research on BSF seems to have been done in the 40s and 50s. So as a composting tool I think thy are not suitable to what is being discussed here. I raise them for chicken food and fish food. The grubs (actually they are big maggots but grubs sounds so much better) will self harvest when ready to go to the ground to pupate so all you have to do is provide a moist environment with LOTS of food and a ramp with catch bucket at the end...viola: chicken food that ~45% protein and 20%fat. The leachate is a bonus...at least it is to me. Hope this helps.


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## ChristieAcres

Forerunner, you will be soooo proud...

We have been going shrimping...shrimp heads, shells, and the resulting lovely rotting fish compost piles.... I am processing my seafood compost under my old rabbit hutches. Tomorrow, I have more shrimp heads to layer. Today, 160 shrimp heads... This next Wed is the last shrimping day, so at least 160 more, unless I can talk our guests into letting me have theirs (DH's middle DS & his fiance' are going shrimping with us). Wow, just think 320 more shrimp heads... Hey, I can ask my neighbors to save me their shrimp heads...hundreds more... Wish I had thought of this before, could have been in for thousands more shrimp heads...


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## ChristieAcres

Here are a few pics for your, Forerunner. Any thoughts or tips?


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## Forerunner

Thoughts ?

YUM!!

Tips ?

Get friendly with your carbon supplier/source. 

What is your carbon base material, that you can so handily accommodate such a high nitrogen and potentially odiforous commodity as shrimp heads ?


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## ChristieAcres

Since I am treading where most fear to go, I am relying on your composting wisdom, fearless Forerunner! Actually, I currently have piles of shrimp heads covered with a mixture of soil, a little sawdust, and rotting compost (to keep the smell down until I create my piles). I would like to create piles with proper ratios. Yes, have a variety of materials to use. What do you recommend as a base?


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## CesumPec

First, I hope you are using those shells and heads to make a broth for cooking future meals. And don't make it one of those 20 minute boils, cook it for hours with just enough water to cover for a thick, rich stick. 

When you are done with that, you are not going to have a lot of weight of shrimp parts. So your carbon source can be anything that is easily available in the form of leaves, wood chips, newspaper, pine needles, etc. I'm going to guess somewhere between 20 and 30 lbs of carbon to shrimp parts will be just fine to balance the C:N ratio. But you want it in a much larger pile in order to create heat and enough volume to cover smells and deter digging critters. There's no sense in going to the trouble to save the stuff only to allow some critter to carry it off. If you don't have the material for a big pile, this might be a great time to try bin or barrel composting. I think with a trench you would run into the same critter problems.


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## Forerunner

^^^^^^^^^

What he said. :gaptooth:


----------



## ChristieAcres

CesumPec said:


> First, I hope you are using those shells and heads to make a broth for cooking future meals. And don't make it one of those 20 minute boils, cook it for hours with just enough water to cover for a thick, rich stick.
> 
> When you are done with that, you are not going to have a lot of weight of shrimp parts. So your carbon source can be anything that is easily available in the form of leaves, wood chips, newspaper, pine needles, etc. I'm going to guess somewhere between 20 and 30 lbs of carbon to shrimp parts will be just fine to balance the C:N ratio. But you want it in a much larger pile in order to create heat and enough volume to cover smells and deter digging critters. There's no sense in going to the trouble to save the stuff only to allow some critter to carry it off. If you don't have the material for a big pile, this might be a great time to try bin or barrel composting. I think with a trench you would run into the same critter problems.


Thank you for that idea, nope wasn't making broth, but now I sure will! I have a pressure canner with plenty of jars/lids/seals. Good news on the composting front. Since we have a securely fenced orchard, nothing gets in. Having outdoor fierce, but incredibly affectionate hunting cats? Also, a very protective dog? The shrimp heads/refuse has been out there for just over a week without a single critter molesting the piles. Our cats & dog all kill rats/mice/voles/moles and deter critters. I am purposely making the piles under the rabbit hutches (no longer have rabbits, just keep the hutches for baby chicks/seasonal use). This way, I can control how much moisture my piles get (it rains here a LOT, not as much in the summer...). Yes, the rabbit hutches are in the fenced orchard :goodjob: One of my jobs today is to start adding materials and making a few separate compost piles. Our last day of shrimping is Wed, so will make broth!


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## ChristieAcres

The "Compost Pile Gifts..." Yes, indeed our main yearly pile has gifted up some unexpected results. I had tossed out dried up Elephant Garlics & German Purple Striped Garlics into the pile during the Winter. Early Spring, when I was lamenting being late to plant my Garlic, I happened to look closer at the pile, then dug down into it a bit. I found lovely Garlic plants of both varieties growing happily. Almost 100 Elephants and over 50 German Purple Striped. Yes, I dug them all out and planted them. Elephants in background:


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## maverickxxx

I'll be back into my big compost piles agin. I just got a 80 acre farm so no more moving around. I quit taking from a horse farm last year cause it was to far to haul I'm closer now an they are going to pay me monthly now to take it. I also got a dairy I'm going to wrk at chipping away a giant pile there it's about 1 1/2 away. Theres also some other places that are close that I can haul from but didn't. I got bandsaw mill now to so I can add my own carbon. There's also a landscape matinee company next door so I can prolly get leaves an clippings from them. It'll be nice having big piles agin.


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## CesumPec

lorichristie said:


> (no longer have rabbits, just keep the hutches for baby chicks/seasonal use).


to avoid a bad thread drift, please see the rabbit forum for a question.


----------



## am1too

maverickxxx said:


> I'll be back into my big compost piles agin. I just got a 80 acre farm so no more moving around. I quit taking from a horse farm last year cause it was to far to haul I'm closer now an they are going to pay me monthly now to take it. I also got a dairy I'm going to wrk at chipping away a giant pile there it's about 1 1/2 away. Theres also some other places that are close that I can haul from but didn't. I got bandsaw mill now to so I can add my own carbon. There's also a landscape matinee company next door so I can prolly get leaves an clippings from them. It'll be nice having big piles agin.


Your very good fortune stikes jealousy.


----------



## CesumPec

maverickxxx said:


> I'll be back into my big compost piles agin. I just got a 80 acre farm so no more moving around. I quit taking from a horse farm last year cause it was to far to haul I'm closer now an they are going to pay me monthly now to take it. I also got a dairy I'm going to wrk at chipping away a giant pile there it's about 1 1/2 away. Theres also some other places that are close that I can haul from but didn't. I got bandsaw mill now to so I can add my own carbon. There's also a landscape matinee company next door so I can prolly get leaves an clippings from them. It'll be nice having big piles agin.


welcome to Extremism!


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## Forerunner

Extreme Threatism, to hear some reliable sources tell it !!


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## maverickxxx

I was bit by it awhile ago. Now I can get setup how I want


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## Oswego

I need some help from you folks that caused the problems I have. My tomato plants have grown so much using compost made from what I learned here are now two feet taller than my four foot high stakes.
My "small" red potatoes as large as baking potatoes and my romain lettuce grows so fast that I have to pick off two of three leaves from each plant every day and I am almost tired of salad every day.
My Wife now wants the whole back yard in raised beds with fruit trees planted on each side of the yard and she expects them to grow as fast as the tomatoes. She also wants to know why I can't get the grass in the front yard to grow like the veggies are growing this year. I could do that but with everything else y'all have cause then I won't have time to mow it twice a week.


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## am1too

Oswego said:


> I need some help from you folks that caused the problems I have. My tomato plants have grown so much using compost made from what I learned here are now two feet taller than my four foot high stakes.
> My "small" red potatoes as large as baking potatoes and my romain lettuce grows so fast that I have to pick off two of three leaves from each plant every day and I am almost tired of salad every day.
> My Wife now wants the whole back yard in raised beds with fruit trees planted on each side of the yard and she expects them to grow as fast as the tomatoes. She also wants to know why I can't get the grass in the front yard to grow like the veggies are growing this year. I could do that but with everything else y'all have cause then I won't have time to mow it twice a week.


Last I heard those things won't cause one to gain weight. But you will be so busy eating those wonderful red thing that your skin color might start to glow. I thought I would surely turn red from eating maters. 

Back to topic though. I thought water was supposed to put out fire. The rain sure has made my pile get hot. Maybe if it keeps up it might drown and I need to get in my boat. Sure beats the drought of the last couple years. Not complaining one little bit.


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## Forerunner

You could always just prune those tomatoes back to a manageable size..... :shrug:


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## Oswego

Forerunner said:


> You could always just prune those tomatoes back to a manageable size..... :shrug:


Told my Wife this morning that I was going to prune them and try to root the cuttings, might make a late crop when the others start to slow down.


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## Forerunner

That may bring us to your next potential problem. 

Every year, I hear stories of all the local tomato crops slowing down and then petering out altogether come mid-late summer.

My tomatoes go strong right up until the first freeze that is hard enough to overcome my efforts to shield the trellises with tarps........ sometimes as late as mid-December.



:sob:


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## Oswego

With our brutal summer heat I'll plant my tomato plants from the pruning in the shade.
Already in the 90's and will be HOT through half of September. I think thats why tomatoes die back down here. Or could it be the seed folks planned for them to die early so we would have to buy more seed for fall crop.

Back on topic, read where potatoes and tomatoes must be rotated to not have diseases, so can old potato and tomato plants be put in compost pile. Will MicroHerd and heat take care of that or will I not be able to use compost made partly of tomato/potato plants on my potato and tomato plants next year?


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## Forerunner

If you've got good, hot piles, you'll do fine adding in tomato and potato vines.
The microherd rules. 

Just see to it that any questionable matter gets buried deep enough to heat and retain moisture enough to maintain that heat.


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## Oswego

Used the frontend loader bucket to make deep trench in pile to bury potato plants from harvested taters. Must have been hot enough, paint bubbled on bucket.


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## michelleIL

I have an awesome source of grass clippings behind my neighborhood, and every few days I go back there with my granny cart and trash can and fill up and put this on my garden space. Fore,,,you haven't seen the nice garden space I have yet! It is glorious, unless you saw it on fb. I have begun this year to put said grass clippings around my seedlings and over my other spots in the garden to burn out the weeds, and get the soil ready for seeds. I don't know how successful this will be, but it is a step up from previous efforts and I'm hoping it will reduce my need to water every day in the heat of summer. Not up to it, especially since the trash can I'm using for collection of rain water is already starting to empty out! 
I have a corner of the bottom of the garden I'm thinking of setting aside for compost, won't be a forerunner pile, but better than nothing! Will be mostly grass clippings, and *maybe* some leaves.


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## Forerunner

Any organic matter that you can lay between rows will conserve moisture, suppress weeds and promote slow-release soil fertility.

I'll beat the pundits to the punch.., be wary of grass clippings from lawns that have been sprayed with the nasty.........


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## michelleIL

I don't know where they come from. I'm choosing to chance it!


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## CesumPec

It may have been dumb luck on my part, but I've never had problems with grass clipping residual herbicides. I pick up curbside bags of grass clippings. I know people say don't do this, but I found that 4 - 6 inches of grass clippings matted down pretty tight and discouraged 4 legged visitors in my trench compost piles and a thick mat around the maters eliminated weeding chores for most of the summer.


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## michelleIL

Hey fore, you think if I put black plastic construction garbage bags over my pile of grass clippings and poke holes in the plastic it would help my pil break down without getting too hot and melting the plastic? And would it indeed speed up the composting process of the grass clippings?


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## Forerunner

Nope, but it would make fantastic silage. 

Best to mix that fresh grass with some carbon and let the pile breathe.


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## katy

Once that green grass has turned brown, is it then carbon ?


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## Forerunner

If fresh clippings are left to dry in the sun, mucho nitrogen is lost, BUT, then you will have a more carbon-rich addition to the pile, if carbon is what you lack.

I'd rather see folks mix fresh clippings with sawdust and save their nitrogen, but if grass is all you got, you can still make good compost by allowing it to dry some before you pile it up.

Some of the best stand alone compost stuff I've seen came from a lawnmower bagger that had been running over grass, leaves and dried up weeds.

Yummy.


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## michelleIL

OK, so this may sound far fetched as all get out, but I kid you not...a cow projectile crapped into my garden space!!! I'm astounded, and some is only a foot away from a tomato plant I just planted not too long ago. I covered this reeking mess with some clippings from the house, veggie and such, and then I thres a covering of grass clippings on top of that! One of two things could happen...I could lose the tomato plant, or I could have the awesomest plant EVER! We shall see!


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

For those of you in northern IL (or southern WI or eastern IA or western IN) that would like to meet up with infamous Forerunner, plan to come to the 9th Annual Homesteading Weekend

My garden doesn't compare to his gardens ... my compost is non-existent to his ... but he loves me anyway  (cuz I make him look good! LOL!)


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## Oswego

With the temps in the 90's and expected to stay there the duration on the summer it will take me longer to shovel out my new load of cow manure and mix it with new load of sawdust. I probably will do a little early before work and again just before dark as many days of the week as possible.

Saturday am I went to the dairy farm for two large bucket loads of fresh manure. Their equipment had been down for several days and had just been repaired. the concrete pit was full of WET manure and they only had about one big bucket worth of semi dry stuff. I got them to mix enough of the wet with the other to get me two bucket loads. Because it was wet my tires were complaining and liquid goodness was dripping through the bottom of the trailer. I took it slow and was going about 45 mph down the 4 lane. I noticed the motorcycles were coming up behind me and quickly changing lanes to pass. Several of them made some animated gestures at me as they went by. I don't think it was the smell that affected them as much as the dripping hitting the road and spraying them and their bikes.


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## CesumPec

Some people just don't appreciate the value of poo


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## am1too

Oswego said:


> With the temps in the 90's and expected to stay there the duration on the summer it will take me longer to shovel out my new load of cow manure and mix it with new load of sawdust. I probably will do a little early before work and again just before dark as many days of the week as possible.
> 
> Saturday am I went to the dairy farm for two large bucket loads of fresh manure. Their equipment had been down for several days and had just been repaired. the concrete pit was full of WET manure and they only had about one big bucket worth of semi dry stuff. I got them to mix enough of the wet with the other to get me two bucket loads. Because it was wet my tires were complaining and liquid goodness was dripping through the bottom of the trailer. I took it slow and was going about 45 mph down the 4 lane. I noticed the motorcycles were coming up behind me and quickly changing lanes to pass. Several of them made some animated gestures at me as they went by. I don't think it was the smell that affected them as much as the dripping hitting the road and spraying them and their bikes.


should not tail gate.


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## am1too

Well my pile sure is not dry now. What a storm!


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## Forerunner

Amen, Brother.



But, an extreme composter must find the good in every situation.......


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## Pony

michelleIL said:


> OK, so this may sound far fetched as all get out, but I kid you not...a cow projectile crapped into my garden space!!! I'm astounded, and some is only a foot away from a tomato plant I just planted not too long ago. I covered this reeking mess with some clippings from the house, veggie and such, and then I thres a covering of grass clippings on top of that! One of two things could happen...I could lose the tomato plant, or I could have the awesomest plant EVER! We shall see!


Off-topic, but if your cow has projectile diarrhea, you may want to get that tested for Johnes.


----------



## Rick

Maybe some one has asked this before. I searched but did not see it. Should I expect weed seeds to be killed by composting? Any weeds I should not put in the pile?


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## Forerunner

Hot compost will kill weed seeds.

Be sure to turn the outer shell into the center of the pile after a few weeks, for a more thorough kill.
There are no weeds that I know of that could be detrimental to the program.

Every one has its own unique trace mineral package to offer.


----------



## am1too

Pony said:


> Off-topic, but if your cow has projectile diarrhea, you may want to get that tested for Johnes.


Nope, just loads of fresh succulent green grass. Water is very nice. Got 3 inches this week. Watching stuff grow cause can't mow. Wanna play in some of my puddles till they dry up? I am having fun. Been way to long.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Hot compost will kill weed seeds.
> 
> Be sure to turn the outer shell into the center of the pile after a few weeks, for a more thorough kill.
> There are no weeds that I know of that could be detrimental to the program.
> 
> Every one has its own unique trace mineral package to offer.


Can't mow em now. Either weed wackin or pullin. Either way it adds to the pile of very hot horse stall cleanings. Got some laying in a ditch that are splashing wet. 

Have started building my piles to take advantage of slope run off. Drought brought on the idea. Gopher holes were artesian wells this morning.


----------



## Pony

am1too said:


> Nope, just loads of fresh succulent green grass. Water is very nice. Got 3 inches this week. Watching stuff grow cause can't mow. Wanna play in some of my puddles till they dry up? I am having fun. Been way to long.


:goodjob: 

Yeah, we got 4 1/2" on Friday. SOooooooo much nicer than last year, when we watched everything wilt and fry and die.

Got enough puddle splashing going into the goat shed.  And after we cleared that out (oh, the corn is so happy now!) it rained again.

Have to dig a swale around that shed.


----------



## Ernie

CesumPec said:


> Some people just don't appreciate the value of poo


Two squash plants, both planted on the same day and from the same seed package. Both grown directly from seed. The two plants are 12' apart in the same garden area and are 3 weeks old.

This first plant received more water than the second, but is planted directly into sandy clay loam. No fertilizer has been used.










This second plant is put in a raised bed full of composted humanure. It received significantly less water. No commercial fertilizers have been used, only composted humanure from a family of 7. 










Posted in case people doubt that Forerunner knows what he's talking about. :heh:


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## CesumPec

Clearly, Ernie, your family of 7 produces some high quality shi...ummm...err...poo.


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## Ernie

CesumPec said:


> Clearly, Ernie, your family of 7 produces some high quality shi...ummm...err...poo.


Heh. Not yet. 

Only about 50% of our diet last year came from the farm (and most of that was from the chickens and the pig). The rest was storebought food, which has a lot less nutritional value. If the input is inferior, then the output is going to be inferior as well (however prodigious).

As we add more humanure, our garden should produce a larger percentage of our food requirements and thus our output will get healthier and healthier. Your body is going to take what it needs and pass on the rest. Plus, from my reading, there is some addition to the nutritional capabilities of humanure due to the bacteria that occur in the composting process.

Anyway, it should be a self-sustaining process. As we use the humanure in our garden, our garden will produce more (and healthier) food, which we will then consume and then excrete more nutrients, which then goes back into the garden for even more health next year.


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## Forerunner

*ERNIE !!*


*in a hoarse , barely audible whisper*
Are you sure it's ok for you to be posting here ? :huh:


Nice squash plant you got there. 

Now give that other one some shi....er, fertilizer, too, already.


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> *ERNIE !!*


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> *ERNIE !!*
> 
> 
> *in a hoarse , barely audible whisper*
> Are you sure it's ok for you to be posting here ? :huh:
> 
> 
> Nice squash plant you got there.
> 
> Now give that other one some shi....er, fertilizer, too, already.


Heh. Probably not ok, no.  But I can't resist this thread. The only things in life I care about discussing are crap and plants. 

I'm working up a fresh batch for those others right now! 

The biggest problem with the humanure is that I can't generate enough of it and turn it into soil fast enough. I'm thinking of putting up a very nice outhouse by the road and a sign that says "we take crap from anyone".


----------



## Forerunner

Yeah, it was a bad time of year to be scoping out sources....and it's not like we were blessed with a lot of time.

Any sale barns or yard waste disposal facilities in the area ?


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> Yeah, it was a bad time of year to be scoping out sources....and it's not like we were blessed with a lot of time.
> 
> Any sale barns or yard waste disposal facilities in the area ?


Quite a few. Lots of folks with horses too, but this is the first year where I have the time and luxury to really make those connections and spend the time doing it. This is going to be a much better year than last one. I tried to build a complete homestead with 20 years of infrastructure in a single year. Ridiculous concept. We killed ourselves building the cabin (you more than me) and then I kept increasing my pace throughout the whole year. 

I've learned to let the work set its own pace now. If I wanted to work my fingers to the bone every day then I'd go get a job and join the rest of the human race.


----------



## Forerunner

Well, haven't you developed the attitude. :grin:


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> Well, haven't you developed the attitude. :grin:


Heh. Hugely so. 

I'm more content now than I've ever been in my entire life. I feel like I escaped from a plantation, found the Underground Railroad, and made my way to Canada.

We recently banned the word "work" in my household. Anyone who uses it has to cook dinner for everyone else. There is no "work" anymore, there is only living. That living may include some things that people might mistake for work, but we don't see it that way. 

Hard to explain, but I suppose that you, of all people, know what I'm talking about.


----------



## calfisher

Here are some of the results of our urban compost.....

The squash is happy!


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## Forerunner

Holy cow, Fisher !!

Is a squash plant that big even legal ?


----------



## calfisher

Ok, Ok so everything else is happy too! Salad, Collards and tomatoes in the back. Last year the tomatoes went out the top of 7 ft cages.


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## Freya

Ernie said:


> I'm thinking of putting up a very nice outhouse by the road and a sign that says "we take crap from anyone".



:rotfl:


----------



## Freya

calfisher said:


> Here are some of the results of our urban compost.....
> 
> The squash is happy!




Looking good!!! :goodjob:


----------



## Ernie

calfisher said:


> Ok, Ok so everything else is happy too! Salad, Collards and tomatoes in the back. Last year the tomatoes went out the top of 7 ft cages.


I've never seen vegetables so big. Aren't you afraid to go out there?


----------



## CesumPec

calfisher said:


> Here are some of the results of our urban compost.....
> 
> The squash is happy!


Ever seen Little Shop of Horrors? Are you sure that so called squash plant isn't about to eat the dude in the blue t-shirt?


----------



## ChristieAcres

My Victoria Rhubarb is the biggest of her kind I have ever seen. She gets plenty of compost and is three times the size of her mother who is in just native soil and gets neglected (she is big to begin with, but her DD is enormous). Since I let the latter go to seed, a pic comparison wouldn't be accurate (the Rhubarb stops putting out hardly any leaves when going to seed). I'll try to take a pic & post it. Compost is the reason our fruit trees, berry vines, berry canes, all other forms of fruits and vegetables are doing so well.

:grouphug:*COMPOST*:grouphug:


----------



## Forerunner

Lori, what is your pet means of composting your fruit trees ?

Just out of curiosity, you know.....


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> Lori, what is your pet means of composting your fruit trees ?
> 
> Just out of curiosity, you know.....


Aged composted manures primarily (chicken, cow, llama, sheep, pig, and rabbit) and I mulch them with Comfrey two or three times/year. On occasion, they have received "mixed" compost, too (from our own compost pile).

Also, almost two years ago, we had three little piglets in there (fenced little orchard). They were in there longer than we planned, so we had to encircle the fruit trees with welded wire fencing to protect them. I could not have foreseen the benefit that turned out to be!

Almost three years ago, I read an article about a guy here in WA, who composted heavily around his fruit trees. WSU sent someone out and they disputed his results (uh, you could see them :smack). This guy was up for a challenge, so he bought a piece of land that was gravel/barren. There he planted fruit trees, heavily composting around them. The results were astounding and couldn't be refuted. I'll see if i can find a link today and post it later. About to head out the door to help DH fit his railing job before he takes the rails to the powder coating shop.


----------



## elkhound

Ernie said:


> Heh. Hugely so.
> 
> I'm more content now than I've ever been in my entire life. I feel like I escaped from a plantation, found the Underground Railroad, and made my way to Canada.
> 
> We recently banned the word "work" in my household. Anyone who uses it has to cook dinner for everyone else. There is no "work" anymore, there is only living. That living may include some things that people might mistake for work, but we don't see it that way.
> 
> Hard to explain, but I suppose that you, of all people, know what I'm talking about.



preach it brother.....by the way...glad to see you around again.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner, here are a few pics for you:

1- A few of our fruit trees mulched with Comfrey (trying out light pruning in July, another method). The fenced orchard is past "gone wild," as DH has been far to busy to get in there and mow. The terrain is a bit too sloped, so DH prefers he do it instead of me. 

2- Composted Victoria Rhubarb, yes one plant.

3- The mother Victoria Rhubarb, doesn't get compost or as regularly watered and usually never more that a third the size of her pampered daughter.

Thanks to your thread, I started using more compost! The benefits are delicious.


----------



## Forerunner

So you basically top-dress compost your fruit trees ?
No digging anything in ?

That is an enviable spot of rhubarb........... :huh:


----------



## MOgal

This may have been addressed earlier so I apologize and ask that someone direct me to the appropriate pages.....

The topic of humanure has come up and we've talked about "communing" with the pile for urine. However, I don't remember having read anything about the effects of medications in urine on compost. Does the heat of composting destroy the meds or change them? I've read that all the birth control drugs being flushed into Chesapeake Bay has had a feminizing effect on male fish. Just wondered. 

Would appreciate input as I may have to go on cholesterol meds to make requirements for DH's group insurance plan or pay a huge premium. 

Lorichristie, gorgeous rhubarb! I have comfrey growing beside each of our fruit trees and just cut it each time it starts to flower and let it rot where it falls. So far, so good.


----------



## CesumPec

MOgal said:


> This may have been addressed earlier so I apologize and ask that someone direct me to the appropriate pages.....
> 
> The topic of humanure has come up and we've talked about "communing" with the pile for urine. However, I don't remember having read anything about the effects of medications in urine on compost. Does the heat of composting destroy the meds or change them? I've read that all the birth control drugs being flushed into Chesapeake Bay has had a feminizing effect on male fish. Just wondered.
> 
> Would appreciate input as I may have to go on cholesterol meds to make requirements for DH's group insurance plan or pay a huge premium.
> 
> Lorichristie, gorgeous rhubarb! I have comfrey growing beside each of our fruit trees and just cut it each time it starts to flower and let it rot where it falls. So far, so good.


I've done quite a bit of reading on humanure and I don't think you can find a definitive study that addresses every particular med that might be in the poo pile. What is different between municipal sewage treatment and proper humanure is that the compost pile provides a heat cycle and a wide array of aerobic microbes who eagerly munch on just about everything that enters the pile. 

If you use big piles that get hot and then let the stuff sit there for a year before you use it, anything that doesn't get broken down will become so dilute as to be meaningless.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> So you basically top-dress compost your fruit trees ?
> No digging anything in ?
> 
> That is an enviable spot of rhubarb........... :huh:


When we planted our fruit trees, DH dug holes at least twice the size of the root balls (or roots as many were dug up and moved from our last property). He then mixed the soil 50/50 with composted manure. A few months later, they were mulched with composted manure. After that, the 2 or 3 applications of Comfrey mulch per year. No, no digging in. The fruit trees in the picture have been in the ground for 6 years while all in our little fenced orchard have been in 7 years. Newer ones are in our chicken yard.

The Rhubarb is happy, but it is her variety that allows her to grow to that size, with a lot of help from rich compost... I couldn't begin to tell you what a difference it has made that I have "lost my fear" of using too much compost. That kind message you sent me a while back cured me


----------



## Forerunner

They can scratch in the following on my tombstone, someday.....

"Yuh cain't hev too much compost, and yuh cain't hev too many fruit trees".

I reckon that about sums up the net of what I've learned in this lifetime. 


I agree wholeheartedly with CesumPec as per the medication quandary.

For those even mildly concerned about the procedure or use in re humanure, I *STRONGLY* encourage you to get yourself a copy of Joseph Jenkin's," _Humanure Handbook._"

The information contained therein addresses everything, and then some......in my estimation.


----------



## Ernie

MOgal said:


> This may have been addressed earlier so I apologize and ask that someone direct me to the appropriate pages.....
> 
> The topic of humanure has come up and we've talked about "communing" with the pile for urine. However, I don't remember having read anything about the effects of medications in urine on compost. Does the heat of composting destroy the meds or change them? I've read that all the birth control drugs being flushed into Chesapeake Bay has had a feminizing effect on male fish. Just wondered.
> 
> Would appreciate input as I may have to go on cholesterol meds to make requirements for DH's group insurance plan or pay a huge premium.
> 
> Lorichristie, gorgeous rhubarb! I have comfrey growing beside each of our fruit trees and just cut it each time it starts to flower and let it rot where it falls. So far, so good.


Most drugs have to be handled with care or they're going to lose all of their efficacy anyway. Your cholesterol meds might even have it printed on them that they have to be refrigerated. If they've got to be refrigerated at 50 degrees, what do you think a thermophyllic compost pile at 130 degrees is going to do to them? 

I've not seen a definitive study, but I don't think it's a concern. The medication has to survive the trip through your body, and then exposure to the compost pile, and then exposure to the heat of the pile, followed by months of aging and mold, mildew, and insect larva. Then if it's survived all that, it's going to be spread out as soil and it will have to be taken up by the roots of your garden plants and then survive in the fruit of whatever plant you've got growing there.

Most of what they're complaining about in medications is due to the water. The average glass of water you drink from the tap has been through SEVEN other people before it's purified by nature. All they do at the treatment plants is filter out the chunks of poo and then dump chlorine in it. The systems were never designed to handle the wide usage of pharmaceuticals.

So if you live in a metropolis and you drink tap water, then you probably have to worry about the Viagra/birth control/anti-depression/anti-psychotic/liver destroying cholesterol drugs/etc. that are in your water supply.

But your cholesterol meds in poo making it back into you through your tomato plants? I don't expect it's an issue.


----------



## ChristieAcres

MOgal said:


> This may have been addressed earlier so I apologize and ask that someone direct me to the appropriate pages.....
> 
> The topic of humanure has come up and we've talked about "communing" with the pile for urine. However, I don't remember having read anything about the effects of medications in urine on compost. Does the heat of composting destroy the meds or change them? I've read that all the birth control drugs being flushed into Chesapeake Bay has had a feminizing effect on male fish. Just wondered.
> 
> Would appreciate input as I may have to go on cholesterol meds to make requirements for DH's group insurance plan or pay a huge premium.
> 
> Lorichristie, gorgeous rhubarb! I have comfrey growing beside each of our fruit trees and just cut it each time it starts to flower and let it rot where it falls. So far, so good.


Thanks, "Ruby" gets the credit, as she is the compost gobbler :help: Glad she isn't like Seymour... How are your fruit trees doing with the mulch? Have you noticed any difference? Our trees began really flourishing upon getting the Comfrey mulch.

Forerunner, you are so right about fruit trees, NEVER have enough!


----------



## michelleIL

On the cow...it isn't mine, so no worries from me on it. Just green grass, as was stated.

ETA the tomato plant is durn yellow and limp now, but we shall see If it improves before counting it totally out.


----------



## MOgal

Thanks for all the replies. It makes me feel much better about continuing using urine in the compost.

Also, Ernie, we are on a private deep well, over 400'. When we have to go to town where water is as you say, passed through 7 people before Nature has a chance to purify it again, I take water from home to drink. Also, for some years, Columbia's water has been plagued with trihalomethane--Uh, nope, thanks.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Found a WSU article, while searching, refers to effects of using compost with fruit trees (prevents *Brown Rot*...

http://csanr.wsu.edu/compostConn/Cc2.PDF

This cabbage was a volunteer (growing cabbage in the Fall as part of my successive plan). She was side-dressed with *compost* and will be fed *Comfrey Fertilizer* (ready in just a few more days). Now that is some super smelly wonderful stuff, recommended highly for *Tomato Plants!*


----------



## MOgal

Sometimes I'm a little slow on the jokes. Nope, glad it's not like Seymour at all. I've always mulched these fruit trees from the time we planted them about 15 years ago. I planted the comfrey about 10 years ago and figured that both the cut tops and any roots that died would add minerals and other goodies to the upper layers of soil. I used to be more energetic and each would get a little rotten manure in the fall and grass clipping mulch as well as the comfrey year round. Then I had to stop that for about 3 years when I went back to work and didn't have a mower with a grass catcher attachment. Fruit quantity and quality declined but now that I'm able to mulch and add compost more consistently, I think they will all perk up again.


----------



## ChristieAcres

MOgal said:


> Sometimes I'm a little slow on the jokes. Nope, glad it's not like Seymour at all. I've always mulched these fruit trees from the time we planted them about 15 years ago. I planted the comfrey about 10 years ago and figured that both the cut tops and any roots that died would add minerals and other goodies to the upper layers of soil. I used to be more energetic and each would get a little rotten manure in the fall and grass clipping mulch as well as the comfrey year round. Then I had to stop that for about 3 years when I went back to work and didn't have a mower with a grass catcher attachment. Fruit quantity and quality declined but now that I'm able to mulch and add compost more consistently, I think they will all perk up again.


Using compost worked very well, but I saw a marked improvement using Comfrey additionally as mulch. Comfrey is a "compost igniter," have had excellent results with that.

My shrimp head compost piles stopped smelling so stinky :trollface


----------



## YamahaRick

Has comfrey been discussed previously in this thread? I read the wiki page on it and it sounds interesting.


----------



## am1too

YamahaRick said:


> Has comfrey been discussed previously in this thread? I read the wiki page on it and it sounds interesting.


I don't think so. 

Would you kindly start a thread on comfrey. I would be very interested. Please provide a link or PM me with its where abouts. thanks.


----------



## am1too

Ernie said:


> Most drugs have to be handled with care or they're going to lose all of their efficacy anyway. Your cholesterol meds might even have it printed on them that they have to be refrigerated. If they've got to be refrigerated at 50 degrees, what do you think a thermophyllic compost pile at 130 degrees is going to do to them?
> 
> I've not seen a definitive study, but I don't think it's a concern. The medication has to survive the trip through your body, and then exposure to the compost pile, and then exposure to the heat of the pile, followed by months of aging and mold, mildew, and insect larva. Then if it's survived all that, it's going to be spread out as soil and it will have to be taken up by the roots of your garden plants and then survive in the fruit of whatever plant you've got growing there.
> 
> Most of what they're complaining about in medications is due to the water. The average glass of water you drink from the tap has been through SEVEN other people before it's purified by nature. All they do at the treatment plants is filter out the chunks of poo and then dump chlorine in it. The systems were never designed to handle the wide usage of pharmaceuticals.
> 
> So if you live in a metropolis and you drink tap water, then you probably have to worry about the Viagra/birth control/anti-depression/anti-psychotic/liver destroying cholesterol drugs/etc. that are in your water supply.
> 
> But your cholesterol meds in poo making it back into you through your tomato plants? I don't expect it's an issue.


Not my water.


----------



## Forerunner

Start a thread ?

Why, I'd be delighted to see Lori's thoughts and whatever anyone else comes up with on Comfrey. It is apparently a compost superfood......

Some of us on here might be accustomed to a little more masculine approach, whereas Comfrey composting could be to horticulture what chick flicks are to the entertainment media.

I just got done watching "How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days", with Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson, so......... :shrug:
*
*


----------



## Ernie

am1too said:


> Not my water.


If you're on city water, then you would be surprised.

Well water, or rainwater (like us) then it's been more naturally purified and is a lot cleaner.

Heck, we've been drinking from the pond lately. We run it through the Berkey and it tastes just fine. Haven't been getting enough rain to keep the roof catchment tanks filled lately.


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> I just got done watching "How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days", with Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson, so......... :shrug:


Quick! Get this man a beer, a smoked turkey leg, and a John Wayne movie! There's not a moment to lose!


----------



## am1too

Ernie said:


> If you're on city water, then you would be surprised.
> 
> Well water, or rainwater (like us) then it's been more naturally purified and is a lot cleaner.
> 
> Heck, we've been drinking from the pond lately. We run it through the Berkey and it tastes just fine. Haven't been getting enough rain to keep the roof catchment tanks filled lately.


Sad to hear that. You can come and play in my mud if you like. It is fun after 3 years without.

To stay on topic a little - some of my reserve carbon is floating.


----------



## Ernie

Thought y'all might be interested in hearing about yesterday's watering experiment.

We pump water down from the pond (the water level has fallen so low that the gravity siphon is no longer working) about every 4-5 days into a 220 gallon tank in the garden. At that time I give everything a very deep soil saturation since the water is coming in.

About half of our garden is in raised beds. They are 18' long and 4' wide, about 8" tall.

The experiment was conducted by placing the running hose in the center of a raised bed and watching to see how long it took water to come out the bottom as it made its way through the soil. The hose fills a 5 gallon bucket in a specific amount of time (~2 min) so we can put a stopwatch on this and see how much water the hose has pumped out.

In raised bed 1 we have sifted mulch. It held 27 gallons of water before it leaked.

In raised bed 2 we have it filled with composted humanure. It held 49.3 gallons of water!

This means that the humanure compost bed has almost twice the water retention capabilities of the others, meaning that here in our arid environment we can go longer between waterings without stunting the plants.


----------



## Forerunner

...and, on the other hand, a few weeks ago, we had 10.5 inches of rain in less than 20 hours.

I watched a few choice portions of my immediate terrain wash horrendously, including the road adjacent to the land. There was an eight foot wide by four feet deep trench being cut in the ditch soil at a rate of about a foot per minute as I stood in that incredible one of several Holy Cow downpours that late night. Having an ongoing supply of used bricks, gravel and asphalt mix, supplied me by fellows in the construction/demolition industries, needing a place to dispose.......I cranked up the backhoe that 1:30 in the a.m. and proceeded to fill that ditch and stop the erosion, hauling several buckets of material before deciding that it would hold until daylight while I ran around in the rain checking other high water flow areas and pond overflows.

What a night.

That next morning, I inspected the entire 33 acres (more or less) and discovered that my wheat field, one third of which would be considered "highly erodible" for it's steep hillsides, showed no evidence of washing.......even in the obvious waterways, save for a small wash in the bottom waterway that takes the water from all the feeder waterways into a largish pond.

That field has had multiple applications of compost, to the extent that most of the original sand and timber soil are buried 2-3 feet deep in the stuff.

Having made a career of managing waterflows and such in the excavating business, I was thoroughly impressed with how that composted soil withstood deluge after deluge, that night.

The main garden, close to the house and on a much more reasonable grade, was walkable that following day without having "mud" stick to my boots, and the next day was workable with hoes and hands pulling weeds.

I find it hard to apologize for my fascination and enthusiasm regarding compost........


----------



## ChristieAcres

am1too said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> Would you kindly start a thread on comfrey. I would be very interested. Please provide a link or PM me with its where abouts. thanks.


Here was a thread already started on Comfrey (not by me):

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/country-living-forums/gardening-plant-propagation/482651-comfrey.html 

This thread into more on varieties, then debating Bocking 14 or Bocking 4. I prefer Bocking 14 and explain why on the thread. In a few of my posts, I also list my uses for it.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Forerunner said:


> Start a thread ?
> 
> Why, I'd be delighted to see Lori's thoughts and whatever anyone else comes up with on Comfrey. It is apparently a compost superfood......
> 
> Some of us on here might be accustomed to a little more masculine approach, whereas Comfrey composting could be to horticulture what chick flicks are to the entertainment media.
> 
> I just got done watching "How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days", with Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson, so......... :shrug:
> *
> *


I just posted the link to the latest Comfrey thread. Since Comfrey does produce an enormous amount of plant material, which breaks down very well, it is a valuable addition to the compost pile. I am a bit tired from our boating trip, but don't mind answering questions regarding my use. Naturally, I am a baby composting gardener compared to you big guys...

My Elephant Garlic bed was a great experiment using Compost to build up layers. I buried a thick layer of Comfrey (I had let it wilt/dry a bit first) with rich compost/soil mixed, then planted Elephant Garlic. It grew just huge and I was very pleased. I mulch all of our fruit trees, my Artichoke plants, and add to my Asparagus beds. There is a barrel full of Compost Fertilizer behind my little greenhouse, now ready to use (nicely aged and smells like sewage). Here is an informative link:

http://www.coescomfrey.com/Coes_Comfrey___How_to_Use.html

Bocking14 is recommended over Bocking4 for compost (Bocking14 has a higher yield). I did a lot of research on Comfrey before I began enjoying its many uses/benefits.


----------



## am1too

lorichristie said:


> Here was a thread already started on Comfrey (not by me):
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...rdening-plant-propagation/482651-comfrey.html
> 
> This thread into more on varieties, then debating Bocking 14 or Bocking 4. I prefer Bocking 14 and explain why on the thread. In a few of my posts, I also list my uses for it.


Thanks


----------



## ChristieAcres

This Comfrey, growing in-ground, has been harvested once already. The other pic shows the very aromatic Comfrey Fertilizer (I fish out the plant material when I use the fertilizer). This is most recommended for tomatoes.


----------



## Ernie

The bottom picture looks kind of like a tasty soup.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Ernie said:


> The bottom picture looks kind of like a tasty soup.


LOL :hysterical:


----------



## Ernie

What do y'all think about using uncomposted rabbit droppings as a side dressing?


----------



## Pony

We use the uncomposted bunny berries here, even on houseplants. Some don't like them because they don't break down very fast, but I like to think of them as "time released" fertilizer.


----------



## Ernie

Pony said:


> We use the uncomposted bunny berries here, even on houseplants. Some don't like them because they don't break down very fast, but I like to think of them as "time released" fertilizer.


I can't imagine that they'd cause too many problems for me here in our dry climate. And we're eating the rabbits, so if they're diseased we've already got problems. 

Thanks for the input. Would be a good natural way to introduce some nitrogen into my garden beds that don't contain compost. How many bunny turds per plant would you advise using?


----------



## Pony

Ernie said:


> I can't imagine that they'd cause too many problems for me here in our dry climate. And we're eating the rabbits, so if they're diseased we've already got problems.
> 
> Thanks for the input. Would be a good natural way to introduce some nitrogen into my garden beds that don't contain compost. How many bunny turds per plant would you advise using?


ROTFL! Well, I never really counted them, Ernie.

When I put them into houseplants, I add about a tablespoon or so, I reckon.

In the garden beds, we just use the spent straw from under the rabbit cages as mulch. Loaded with all the things that make plants happy. :whistlin:


----------



## Ernie

I'm going to go squeeze the bunnies now and see if I can get them to produce some for me.


----------



## CesumPec

Ernie said:


> How many bunny turds per plant would you advise using?


assuming a uniform spherical rabbit dropping of approximately 2.634 millimeters in diameter, the recommended dosage is 3.78 berries per 5 cubic centimeters of soil within hemisphere 9 centimeters beyond and below the drip line of the plant. 

Geesh, what are you a rookie at this stuff?


----------



## Pony

CesumPec said:


> assuming a uniform spherical rabbit dropping of approximately 2.634 millimeters in diameter, the recommended dosage is 3.78 berries per 5 cubic centimeters of soil within hemisphere 9 centimeters beyond and below the drip line of the plant.
> 
> Geesh, what are you a rookie at this stuff?


ROTFL! TIMIBE!
:rotfl:ound:


----------



## Ernie

CesumPec said:


> assuming a uniform spherical rabbit dropping of approximately 2.634 millimeters in diameter, the recommended dosage is 3.78 berries per 5 cubic centimeters of soil within hemisphere 9 centimeters beyond and below the drip line of the plant.
> 
> Geesh, what are you a rookie at this stuff?


Yes. 

We're new to bunnies, and thus bunny poop.


----------



## CesumPec

Pony - ya got me. ?TIMIBE?

Ernie - You are way ahead of me. I've only ever had one rabbit. It was an attack rabbit. The Irish Setter and Great Dane shared the backyard with this rabbit and it would chase them all over the yard till they retreated to safety, on the top of the picnic table. I can tell you 2 big dogs + 1 rabbit in 1 backyard = too much poo.


----------



## Ernie

CesumPec said:


> Pony - ya got me. ?TIMIBE?
> 
> Ernie - You are way ahead of me. I've only ever had one rabbit. It was an attack rabbit. The Irish Setter and Great Dane shared the backyard with this rabbit and it would chase them all over the yard till they retreated to safety, on the top of the picnic table. I can tell you 2 big dogs + 1 rabbit in 1 backyard = too much poo.


I have 2 now, thanks to a very kind lady who gave them to me.

The female "Hope She Makes It" is due to deliver tonight or tomorrow. The male "Brigadier Stuart" is ready to do his duty for King and Country. Maybe even twice!


----------



## michelleIL

Someone's been watching a bit of Monty Python! CESUMPEC!!!


----------



## CesumPec

michelleIL said:


> Someone's been watching a bit of Monty Python! CESUMPEC!!!


True, _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_ is my daughter's fave movie. But our attack rabbit was for real. The rabbit would nibble and pull hair on the dogs and the dogs did not like it one bit. Why they never ate that rabbit I do not know.


----------



## michelleIL

I was comparing the specs on rabbit turds and swallows!


----------



## Pony

CesumPec said:


> Pony - ya got me. ?TIMIBE?


<g> Brain blip from the old BBS days. 

Tears In My Itty Bitty Eyes


----------



## 01Navy81Man

Hi all just wanted to say hi, I joined this site because of this thread. I did a google search to get more info on compost and Extreme Composting popped and I started to read..........4 weeks later I've gotten through all 85 pages. Forerunner your insane BTW, but in a good way...lol I'm currently in the military and living in VA Beach area so my composting is rather limited though for my area and space I think I'm doing ok. My wife and I bought a house 2 years ago and I have since been composting, planting and otherwise driving my wife insane (more than I've already done of course). I've got 4 beds of 4x18 for veggies. then blackberries, blueberries, strawberries, apples, pears and peaches planted around the yard plus a rose garden and what will be soon a herb/wildflower garden out front. All this is on a .25ac plot that was either pack dead dirt or heavy clay, no in my garden I have black soil that I can see 10 worms in each shovel full and plants that are loving it all in 2 yrs and it can only get better as I go. I've gotten all my composting material from horse farms around the area and my weeds lol, I did suggest composting the possum my dogs caught the other day but the wife wasn't going for it lol but I did try Forerunner! lol maybe when I retire and we move to our own land I'll convice her . Anyways wanting to say hi and thank you all for the info!


----------



## CesumPec

Thank you for your service, Navyman. I grew up across the river, in Hampton. My dad was a Newport News Shipyard worker. If you live in Va Beach, I'm guessing you are in aviation and there is a chance you served on one of Dad's ships, JFK, Enterprise, Nimitz. 

Composting is a challenge for someone who has to move every few years. You get a good garden going with some mature piles ready to spread and then you find your self living in San Diego. congrats on the rich black soil you have created and you may want to put a guard on that fruit next time I'm in the area visiting my mother.


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome aboard Navyman. 

The closest I've ever come to marine service is my trusty old canoe. 

Sounds like got a firm grasp of the composting process.
Too bad google couldn't do you better service than to send you to this motley assembly, but oh, well.....here we are. :sob:

I don't know if I see periodic relocating as a composting challenge.
I'd have to say that such only expands your opportunities to educate yet another community and greatly enhance the fertility of yet another plot of land.

Of course, trying to get fruit off your trees would be another story.......


----------



## 01Navy81Man

Cesum not an airdale I'm one of those engineering rates that talks crap about airdales well them and every other rate lol. I'm Hull Tech (my rate or job) and as such I do welding, brazing, metal fab and repair, plumbing and some wood working. I'm also a hobby wood worker so between them all I tend to do alot of things on my own and I hate paying others to do what I can do myself or figure out, though it drives my wife batty lol. 
Forerunner the making compost isn't the issue what is tough is putting all that work into a place and then moving and driving by some weeks/months or even years later and seeing how all my hard work has gone to hell. but I hope to stay in this area until I retire so another 8 or so years which is plenty of time to reap the rewards of my fruits......literally  though as far as spreading the good news of composting and what you can do with it I've been thinking of getting some of the neighborhood churches to start like food bank garden plots to help people out, alot of churches have the land and many members are gardeners and if everyone help it wouldn't be much work though I some how doubt they would let me make Forerunner level compost piles  Oh and any that are in the area are welcome to fruit when I get them really producing, once they start going I doubt that my family of 5 can eat all that fruit though the kids are really likeing the strawberries!


----------



## Oswego

I have been mixing my fresh cow manure and sawdust about 50/50 plus about two squirrels a week. Is that going to be too rich or should I mix in more sawdust?

For the raised beds that I am in the planning stage can or should I mix in some topsoil into the compost pile while its hot.

Opinions on this plan for raised beds:

Dig one foot deep into the ground inside of where raised bed frame will be, line with plastic to have more depth and retain moisture below original ground level under each raised bed. Plastic would extend out from depression and frame of beds sit on top.


----------



## Paquebot

Oswego said:


> Opinions on this plan for raised beds:
> 
> Dig one foot deep into the ground inside of where raised bed frame will be, line with plastic to have more depth and retain moisture below original ground level under each raised bed. Plastic would extend out from depression and frame of beds sit on top.


Skip the plastic. That will just hold water like a bath tub. Other than bog plants, normal garden plants will not survive such conditions. Most vegetable roots extend 3 or 4 feet into the soil. The roots would simply ball up at the plastic and become waterlogged and die. 

Martin


----------



## Ernie

Paquebot said:


> Skip the plastic. That will just hold water like a bath tub. Other than bog plants, normal garden plants will not survive such conditions. Most vegetable roots extend 3 or 4 feet into the soil. The roots would simply ball up at the plastic and become waterlogged and die.
> 
> Martin


I agree. Plus, if you deep water a raised bed, that soil underneath it holds water like a battery for plants. 

In my raised beds I dug down a foot and then filled in the bottom with dead branches and rotted wood. Then the bed sides are about 18" up from that. Out here in central Texas we need all the water storage we can get.

(One of the problems from that dead wood, I think, was that all of the carbon sucked away the nitrogen. I had to put a bunch back in.)


----------



## Paquebot

Ernie said:


> (One of the problems from that dead wood, I think, was that all of the carbon sucked away the nitrogen. I had to put a bunch back in.)


Under your conditions, shredded Christmas trees would be a better source of a deep base. There is sufficient nitrogen in the needles and new growth to enable it to break down by itself without seriously affecting the soil nitrogen. The end result is the same as the ability of the humus to retain moisture is the same as if it had been plain wood.

Martin


----------



## Oswego

Okay, lets leave off the water retention under the raised beds and go back to my first two questions

I have been mixing my fresh cow manure and sawdust about 50/50 plus about two squirrels a week. Is that going to be too rich or should I mix in more sawdust?

For the raised beds that I am in the planning stage can or should I mix in some topsoil into the compost pile while its hot.

Also I am studying up on the use of zeolites
Already using it as litter in my chicken coop
Now looking to use in in my compost piles as well


----------



## Ernie

Oswego said:


> Okay, lets leave off the water retention under the raised beds and go back to my first two questions
> 
> I have been mixing my fresh cow manure and sawdust about 50/50 plus about two squirrels a week. Is that going to be too rich or should I mix in more sawdust?
> 
> For the raised beds that I am in the planning stage can or should I mix in some topsoil into the compost pile while its hot.
> 
> Also I am studying up on the use of zeolites
> Already using it as litter in my chicken coop
> Now looking to use in in my compost piles as well


Sorry. Water is always foremost in my mind. 

You need to compost any of that manure and sawdust before it goes into your raised beds. If it's composted, it's not too rich. I'm not even sure what too rich would ever mean in terms of compost. Too nitrogen-hot? I didn't know you could even do that with compost. Just raw manure.

What's a zeolite?


----------



## Oswego

Link to zeolite uses
http://www.stcloudmining.com/agriculture.html


----------



## Oswego

Ernie said:


> Sorry. Water is always foremost in my mind.
> 
> You need to compost any of that manure and sawdust before it goes into your raised beds. If it's composted, it's not too rich. I'm not even sure what too rich would ever mean in terms of compost. Too nitrogen-hot? I didn't know you could even do that with compost. Just raw manure.
> 
> What's a zeolite?


I am composting it but I have read where the amount of carbon should be a lot higher than the amount of nitrogen. So should I be adding higher percent of sawdust to my cow manure?

I have been mixing sawdust and cow manure half and half by volume not weight


----------



## Ernie

Unless your cows are just dropping liquid poo, it generally contains enough carbon already in it undigested to get the process going. I've never had any problems with it, anyway and I've never added sawdust.

What's the finished material look like? Coffee grounds?


----------



## Oswego

Ernie said:


> Unless your cows are just dropping liquid poo, it generally contains enough carbon already in it undigested to get the process going. I've never had any problems with it, anyway and I've never added sawdust.
> 
> What's the finished material look like? Coffee grounds?


I have to buy my manure and get the sawdust free. I mix to get more quantity of finished product. 
Yea dirty brown coffee grounds might look like my compost.


----------



## Ernie

Oswego said:


> I have to buy my manure and get the sawdust free. I mix to get more quantity of finished product.
> Yea dirty brown coffee grounds might look like my compost.


Sounds like it's turning out ok then. How's it growing out your plants? They all look healthy?

There's a formula for carbon:nitrogen in your compost pile ... I think it's preferred at, what, 30:1? I never have bothered too much with that. I throw stuff in and let it churn. Most everything organic seems to compost down just fine.


----------



## Oswego

Ernie said:


> Sounds like it's turning out ok then. How's it growing out your plants? They all look healthy?
> 
> There's a formula for carbon:nitrogen in your compost pile ... I think it's preferred at, what, 30:1? I never have bothered too much with that. I throw stuff in and let it churn. Most everything organic seems to compost down just fine.


They are very healthy but I think they are getting too much nitrogen because for instance, my tomato plants keep getting Six feet tall until I trim them back again.

So what's the nitrogen content of fresh cow manure and how much of it is carbon from undigested food stuff.


----------



## Forerunner

Don't mind them huge tomater plants unless they have trouble setting fruit.
Huge plants mean healthy soil, if you have huge tomatoes to go with.


----------



## Ernie

Oswego said:


> They are very healthy but I think they are getting too much nitrogen because for instance, my tomato plants keep getting Six feet tall until I trim them back again.
> 
> So what's the nitrogen content of fresh cow manure and how much of it is carbon from undigested food stuff.


Fresh it's about .5% and dried it's 2%. I'm not sure why the drying process adds nitrogen, but that's what the charts say.

If you've got 6' tall tomato plants, your soil is better than mine. Keep doing whatever you're doing.


----------



## Paquebot

Ernie said:


> Fresh it's about .5% and dried it's 2%. I'm not sure why the drying process adds nitrogen, but that's what the charts say.


What's lost during the drying process is water. Just like a raisin is merely a grape with the water removed. 



> If you've got 6' tall tomato plants, your soil is better than mine. Keep doing whatever you're doing.


Tomato plants which are too tall are an indication of too much nitrogen. Best NPK ratio for tomatoes is 1-2-2. Manures are too high to use as is except in limited quantity. That is, one gallon of pure manure per 10 square feet in an established garden and double in a new garden. More may seem like a great idea but only on paper. 

Martin


----------



## Ernie

Paquebot said:


> What's lost during the drying process is water. Just like a raisin is merely a grape with the water removed.
> 
> 
> 
> Tomato plants which are too tall are an indication of too much nitrogen. Best NPK ratio for tomatoes is 1-2-2. Manures are too high to use as is except in limited quantity. That is, one gallon of pure manure per 10 square feet in an established garden and double in a new garden. More may seem like a great idea but only on paper.
> 
> Martin


I have often wondered if you could dump nitrogen heavily on your plants until they achieved the appropriate height and then add in a lot of phosphate to cause a lot of fruit production. Never tried it. Mostly I struggle just to keep enough water on these poor fellows. Desert gardening has its own trials. All the minerals in the world won't help if there's not enough soil moisture for the plants to take them in.


----------



## Oswego

So should I change my manure/sawdust Percentage and up the amount of sawdust in the mix ?


----------



## Ernie

Oswego said:


> So should I change my manure/sawdust Percentage and up the amount of sawdust in the mix ?


If you're getting fruit off those giant tomato plants, I'd say no. If it's just a big bush, then I'd say yes.

Listen to the plants. They always know. 

On the other hand (I've got lots of hands), seems you're doing fine on the nitrogen so if you did add sawdust it would make your compost go a little further ... if that's a concern for you.


----------



## Paquebot

Ernie said:


> I have often wondered if you could dump nitrogen heavily on your plants until they achieved the appropriate height and then add in a lot of phosphate to cause a lot of fruit production. Never tried it. Mostly I struggle just to keep enough water on these poor fellows. Desert gardening has its own trials. All the minerals in the world won't help if there's not enough soil moisture for the plants to take them in.


Never happen since there's no way to supply just enough nitrogen for rapid growth and then suddenly cut off the uptake. A small amount of water-soluble nitrogen at planting time would give a growth spurt but there's no formula for how much to use of what.

Where lack of water is a problem, make deeper beds with absorbent material at 3' depth. Tomato roots routinely go 4 to 5 feet or more. If there's moisture down there, they'll find it.

Martin


----------



## Ernie

Paquebot said:


> Never happen since there's no way to supply just enough nitrogen for rapid growth and then suddenly cut off the uptake. A small amount of water-soluble nitrogen at planting time would give a growth spurt but there's no formula for how much to use of what.
> 
> Where lack of water is a problem, make deeper beds with absorbent material at 3' depth. Tomato roots routinely go 4 to 5 feet or more. If there's moisture down there, they'll find it.
> 
> Martin


Yeah. I just don't think there's any way to control the soil nutrients that way outside of a lab.

Tomato plants respond very well here to fergation. I have a series of 5 gallon buckets with a 5/32" hole drilled in the side down at the bottom. I put them at the base of each tomato plant and fill it up with water. It deep saturates right there in that one spot. I can generally go about 7 days between having to do that with only light waterings every morning.


----------



## Forerunner

Oswego said:


> So should I change my manure/sawdust Percentage and up the amount of sawdust in the mix ?


Perhaps, if not for the fact that you get the sawdust for free.

Use just enough manure to get the piles to heat well, maybe 1 part manure/2-3 parts sawdust, and let them age 6-12 months before use. Any other green matter you can mix in will just be a bonus.

I recommend against planting anything in a pure compost blend that hasn't cycled. Mixing that blend with dirt would buffer the effect, but my best results have always come from using completely aged compost.


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> Okay, lets leave off the water retention under the raised beds and go back to my first two questions
> 
> I have been mixing my fresh cow manure and sawdust about 50/50 plus about two squirrels a week. Is that going to be too rich or should I mix in more sawdust?
> 
> For the raised beds that I am in the planning stage can or should I mix in some topsoil into the compost pile while its hot.
> 
> Also I am studying up on the use of zeolites
> Already using it as litter in my chicken coop
> Now looking to use in in my compost piles as well


Ya need to up the squirrels. :hysterical:


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> They are very healthy but I think they are getting too much nitrogen because for instance, my tomato plants keep getting Six feet tall until I trim them back again.
> 
> So what's the nitrogen content of fresh cow manure and how much of it is carbon from undigested food stuff.


What about the maters? If you have green and no maters there is to much nitrogen.


----------



## Oswego

am1too said:


> What about the maters? If you have green and no maters there is to much nitrogen.


We have maters, started picking some ripe ones this week. Not as many as I think we should have though.

If I could cook and eat tomato plant then I could feed an army.


----------



## Pony

am1too said:


> What about the maters? If you have green and no maters there is to much nitrogen.


You can have a very bushy, viney tomato plant with no tomatoes if you have a "bull" - the result of a spontaneous triploid. 

Had that problem a few years ago with Mr Stripey. Trying again this year, though, because I got a four-pack for 50 cents.


----------



## ChristieAcres

Only add about raised beds, if put on a slant where water drains naturally (ours two garden area tiers are slanted to the E, so there is zero pooling underneath our beds, as water drains downhill). I wouldn't be using raised beds on flat soil, but would do deep wide beds, just preferences of mine for intensive gardening without heavy equipment...

Comfrey Fertilizer rocks for tomatoes...


----------



## Bluebird

Early this spring I cleaned out the old chicken coop. Haven't been in there for about 10 years. The kids grew up and we were busy building our business to the tune of 16 hour days and yadda yadda........ Grandkids are here and are wanted to do the chicken project at the fair this year so I scrapped out the coop and layered the mess ( 3 wheel barrows full) in my compost piles. There are 3 that are about 4-6 square feet. All of what was in there was from last fall - leaves, pine needles, weeds and some cow manure from the neighbor. Didn't think much about putting the old chicken scrapping in and I am about to mulch my growing plants and then started to wonder if it would be too hot or if the length of time will have reduced the potency of the scrapings. Any thoughts? Thanks for any and all.


----------



## Forerunner

Using that mix for mulch would prolly work OK.

If you have access to something not so wonderful as what you described, you could save that mix for it's compost value.

A lot of times, if I want to use compost between the rows, I'll lay in something more carbonacious over that compost to keep the sun off and the moisture in.


----------



## Bluebird

Thank you!!


----------



## myheaven

Ok Tim you asked for it here is my start of this years compost. This one has 1 cow and 2 full sized goats. I Los all 3 this winter. This pile has reduced by about 2/3.
I have no idea how this became upside down and I don't know how to change it.


----------



## myheaven

Some carbon for this year.


----------



## myheaven

What the fridge man! What is up with my pictures! Ugg.


----------



## myheaven

My line of compost and carbon.


----------



## myheaven

I swear guys I haven't been drinking! It's not Friday yet!


----------



## myheaven

This is my small garden this year. We were to be moving. So this was last minute. And my last picture as they keep coming out upside down! Dang it!


----------



## YamahaRick

myheaven said:


> I swear guys I haven't been drinking! It's not Friday yet!


Here ya go ...


----------



## myheaven

Thank you so so much! How did you flip it?


----------



## myheaven

I still have 3 barns to clean. I had a pile that was so large 2 years ago that you could not see the buildings. It was so pretty. The pictures are on my old computer. Dh thought I was crazy. He is slowly coming around. The middle pile has a cow and 2 full grown goats. Not one ounce of smell.


----------



## YamahaRick

myheaven said:


> Thank you so so much! How did you flip it?


I downloaded each image to my PC, then used a utility Vueprint to rotate them.

http://www.hamrick.com/upg.html


----------



## Oswego

You just wanted someone to turn your piles for you


----------



## myheaven

Oswego said:


> You just wanted someone to turn your piles for you


Lol! You betcha!
I cannot download pics on my PC as my dearest middle son got a huge virus on it.


----------



## Forerunner

Well, I was enjoying compost from a whole new perspective....... but, thank you, Rick, for turning MyHeaven's piles, anyhow. 
Good observation, Oswego..... there is usually a method to a woman's madness, all excuses to the contrary notwithstanding.


A beef and two goats without odor. How _do_ you pull that off ?


----------



## TJadeI

YIPPEEE I CAN POST!!

ok, I read to about 8 pages and thought... I really don't have the time to sit in front of the computer to read all these pages... I have kids, and animals and a business to manage... way too many of them still in diapers... so I have a few (hopefully) quick questions.... 

Forerunner-- how many acres do you have?!?! that is SO amazingly impressive!!

Also.... like I said... diapers... I've been told they can't compost. is this true? it doesn't matter how much I LOATHE waste and paying someone to take off with the little bit of garbage we do have, I just can't bring myself to use cloth diapers... maybe it's the chef in me... maybe it's just that I don't have the time/energy/desire to spend that much extra time/water/energy on laundry. I'm already stretched too thin... 

Like I said above... I REALLY don't like to send them to the landfill... do you have any idea what to do with all of them? we already separate them from everything else, and that's virtually the only thing from our home that goes to the landfill, but that one thing is going to be a scourge on our family for at least 2 more years, as our youngest child isn't quite a year old... and our older kids still wear pull-ups to bed... **sigh** it will be great when we have a whole bunch of workhands around here, and I'm not going to be managing 18.8 acres, a 5 bedroom farmhouse, a catering company, and a whole mess of toddlers... 

but I digress.... 

What would you do with all those diapers??

I'm pretty much worshipping you lately. we already recycle our cooking oil to biodiesel, compost, recycle, even reuse things you wouldn't expect, like mayonnaise jars, creamer bottles, etc. our goal is to have a self reliant farm going within 5 years, to include a watermill on the river, maybe 2, and solar panels. we currently have a pretty decent plot of land, and I was raised on a farm, so I know the work, now if only I could figure out how to keep all this livestock fed and managed until time for butcher (a benefit of culinary school... you are taught the fine art of butchery and proper food handling) the livestock, isn't that big of an issue, as the one big pressing issue... 

what on earth do we do with all these diapers?!?! 

and I can't wait till our compost piles are as impressive as yours... but we are certainly looking forward to it...


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, T-Jade. 

I'm standing on something in the vicinity of 34 acres, possibly 14 tillable by now.

Have you and the Misses considered cloth diapers and handwashing ?
Take it from my experience..... if you would volunteer to head up such an operation as that, thereby relieving the Misses indefinitely of all "disposal management", the gesture would pay you lasting dividends, in more ways than one............

Elstwise, were it me, I'd designate one hot pile in which to bury all plastic diapers and figure on having the "skins" to pull out once decomposition is complete.

Either of those options, myself favoring the former, appeal to you ?


----------



## TJadeI

Have you and the Misses considered cloth diapers and handwashing ?
Take it from my experience..... if you would volunteer to head up such an operation as that, thereby relieving the Misses indefinitely of all "disposal management", the gesture would pay you lasting dividends, in more ways than one............



I should have clarified... oops... I am the missus 

it's a common mistake. 

and diapers aren't plastic anymore. but they have this gel stuff inside that I've been told isn't compostable. I've also heard that they can be washed to be recycled in the big cement barriers they put along the interstate, but I wouldn't even know where to look to see if I can just send them that direction. 

I don't think they have plastic at all... I think they are more like... super absorbent menstrual pads??? another thing I've been told isn't compostable.. but we have a few years before we'll have to deal with that mess again...


----------



## TJadeI

ok... how do you get the little square quotie thing?!?! I joined this forum primarily for this thread... so as it says, this is only my third post and haven't figured it all out yet...


----------



## myheaven

T jade they do make compost able diapers. They are like 14$ per 24 but if you must go disposable you do have an option. I have cloth diapered 6 children its not hard. The diapers now a days are amazing!!!! As easy as disposable. There is g diapers, they are cloth and disposable and compost able, bum gin opus. There is poo poo pockets and AIO( all in one) pocket and just plain diaper covers. I'm addicted to cloth. I love cloth. I love to wash my cloth. Cloth is king!


----------



## TJadeI

I've looked into the cloth... I got so lost... I liked the look of the g diapers... but by the time I started seriously looking into it, we were almost a year into our LAST child (made sure there aren't going to be any more... surgically... on both ends) and I'm already doing 3-4 loads of laundry a day... between work clothes (his) work uniforms (mine) and the messes that 5 kids make when they have free run of that much mud... yeah.. I said forget that noise... 

I thought about those laundry services that they take off with the dirty diapers, and bring them back clean.. might as well be spending the money on the sposies. 

I have accidentally washed a couple of those things though... almost had to replace my washer... holy smokes!! :hair:

I think I put more thought/time into considering cloth diapers than I did the sawdust toilet... but although the toilet seems very eco friendly, I mentally saw my special needs toddler wanting to play in that "sawdust" and thought... oh dear me.... no way!!

it seems my only option at this point (I'll look into compostable diapers, but $14 for 24 diapers is.... WOW!! :shocked:


----------



## TJadeI

lol oops... it seems my only option at this point is to continue to pay the waste management company a whole $15 a month to haul them all away... we are just so efficient everywhere else... it's a little depressing...


----------



## TJadeI

awww bummer... was checking out the biodegradebale diapers, and they are one for one base reason... the youngest child, is allergic to corn, all corn, can't even have corn products in his clothing, lotions, etc. 

the biodegradeable diapers, are made of corn.... poopy.... yes... pun intended. 


oh, another question for forerunner... how on earth do you make the money to buy the equipment if you don't sell your compost, or work elsewhere?!?! i would LOVE to be able to just pay someone else to run my catering company and spend the rest of my days working my farm, but as of yet.... I haven't figured out how to pull that off... or even how we are so super efficient, and still feel like we are hemorrhaging money... **sigh**


----------



## Forerunner

The key to enjoying resources is to turn their efficient use into an art form.

I do occasionally exchange my heavy equipment skills for resources, as well as an occasional load of scrap metal......and then I spend very little on frivolities.

Compostable by "their" standards, or no..... I would still bury disposable diapers in a hot pile and let the microbes use what they will, and then dispose of whatever was left visible.


----------



## TJadeI

do you own your property outright? we have a MASSIVE mortgage.... no real frivolities to speak of, unless you count internet service and a land line phone.... but have to get the kids clothes/shoes/school supplies etc.... occasionally i have to get myself new clothes/shoes/uniforms... was wondering how you manage all that type stuff... 

if thats asking too much just let me know, i'm just wanting to get this self reliant thing down...


----------



## Forerunner

Self reliant is about it.

While this body was able......it worked hard and long............


----------



## Bearsfan

Cloth diapers are easier than you think, get a five gallon bucket with a lid and put a gallon of water with vinegar in it for a soak. when it gets full dump the stinky concoction into the washerr for a pre soak. Then do your regular cycle. We do our own wipes also, distilled water and baby oil poured over cut up t-shirts. I came in here trying to find how to accelerate the hay in my pile and ended up talking diapers. lol


----------



## TJadeI

correct me if I'm wrong.... but from what I've learned here, your compost needs nitrogen, carbon and oxygen, so if your carbon isn't decomposing, it needs nitrogen, and a good turning to feed it the oxygen.


----------



## Forerunner

Don't forget adequate moisture.

The pile will sit forever and do nothing if too dry. It will sit for a long time, fermenting, if too wet.

The rule is too maintain the moisture content of a lightly wrung out sponge.


----------



## RomeGrower

Forerunner said:


> Self reliant is about it.
> 
> While this body was able......it worked hard and long............


Are you ok FR? I don't know how to interprete this. You look younger than I am.


----------



## Ernie

RomeGrower said:


> Are you ok FR? I don't know how to interprete this. You look younger than I am.


He's slowed down a tenth of a percent in recent years and now he thinks he's ready for the wheelchair.

The man will still work most of us into an early grave before noon. If you ever visit him, you'd better feign an injury or you'll be working too. And make it a good fake injury because he'll inspect!


----------



## RomeGrower

That's pretty much what I figured. I'm a little envious sitting in my cube in an office chair.


----------



## Forerunner

*hobbles feebly over to the computer chair an' sets fer a spell*

You fellers hedn't ought pick on a poor old man, so................


----------



## Ernie

RomeGrower said:


> That's pretty much what I figured. I'm a little envious sitting in my cube in an office chair.


I have in my possession one of the only known photos in existence of Forerunner sitting down. 










He's sitting there thinking about what to do next and I'm about to fall over from exhaustion!


----------



## Forerunner

Traiter............ :indif:


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> Traiter............ :indif:


I think I've also got one of you dangling upside down from a rooftop like a spry little monkey.


----------



## TJadeI

that's one I'd like to see... lol. 

how do you do the little box quote thingie?!?!


----------



## TJadeI

ok forerunner, on the moisture thing... I live in an area that is VERY wet, heavy rains 9 months of the year. (good ol western washington) have you ever had to tarp your piles if they get too wet?? or just turn them extra times? 

how do you keep them from being too wet?


----------



## am1too

RomeGrower said:


> Are you ok FR? I don't know how to interprete this. You look younger than I am.


He's got a very healthy sense of humor that goes with his humility.


----------



## Forerunner

Yes, tarp those piles in wet climes, as well as cone them up from all sides, if possible, to naturally shed water if a tarp isn't available.

Humility ? 



There's an accusation I don't get every day.


----------



## TJadeI

what is coning them up?


----------



## MOgal

Push the piles into a cone shape to help them shed water.


----------



## Studhauler

For once I finally found more than enough nitrogen to put into my pile. I have a carbon shortage right now. I could relive some newspaper form the local recycle dumpster. How thick of a layer of newsprint could I cover a hot pile with? Then I would put al thick lay of nitrogen on top of it. Then cover that with the last of my leaves from last fall.


----------



## Forerunner

Off the top of me head, without shredding the stuff, I'd say you could do 4-6 inch layers of newspaper between moist higher nitrogen layers.


----------



## CesumPec

I've used 6 inch layers of paper as weed block and to raise a low area of the yard. the stuff lasts months and months that way. To compost it i would use one inch layers lasagna style.


----------



## Forerunner

....and I wouldn't argue with that.


----------



## Pony

But if you shred it, it breaks down so lovely and fast!


----------



## Studhauler

I wish I had a good shedder, but even more I wish I had a good wood chipper; if I did, I would never run out of carbon. Thanks for the help.


----------



## CesumPec

Studhauler said:


> I wish I had a good shedder, but even more I wish I had a good wood chipper; if I did, I would never run out of carbon. Thanks for the help.


I have a good wood chipper but it takes so much wood and time to make a big pile. I can easily do 10" logs. Just took down an oak tree that had a 20" trunk, 60 ft tall, and all it made was a pile about a half cubic yard.


----------



## myheaven

Studhauler said:


> I wish I had a good shedder, but even more I wish I had a good wood chipper; if I did, I would never run out of carbon. Thanks for the help.


If you have smaller kids set them loose with scissors on the paper. It would be in pieces in no time. My crew is good at that!


----------



## myheaven

Hey forerunner good to meet you this weekend. My children had a great time with your kids. Thanks for keeping my kids busy with the carder. They had so much fun. I have a few kids with new addictions. My 7yo begged me to spin tonight. I promised her tomorrow. Dh told mr to start looking for fiber animals. Darn you and Cindy!


----------



## RomeGrower

Ernie said:


> I have in my possession one of the only known photos in existence of Forerunner sitting down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's sitting there thinking about what to do next and I'm about to fall over from exhaustion!


I do see the gray hair setting in on that beard. I guess you had to slow down sometime.


----------



## Studhauler

The trip to the newspaper recycle dumpster was not very productive. It was filled mostly with magazines, and I didn't want to try my luck with them. There were enough newspaper to nearly cover the one half of the pile I am working on, with about an inch of paper. I added the nitrogen to that end.


----------



## Trisha in WA

This newspaper idea sounds like a really good one for helping hold moisture in a pile too!


----------



## Forerunner

myheaven said:


> Hey forerunner good to meet you this weekend. My children had a great time with your kids. Thanks for keeping my kids busy with the carder. They had so much fun. I have a few kids with new addictions. My 7yo begged me to spin tonight. I promised her tomorrow. Dh told mr to start looking for fiber animals. Darn you and Cindy!


Well, after meeting you and your family, I see why you post compost pichers upside-down. :heh:

If we was neighbors, we'd turn the world upside-down while we're at it. :thumb:


----------



## myheaven

If illAnoy wasn't so messed up we would look at moving closer to you folks. But for now well just keep making our neighbors angry with mooing cows and calling goats. Oh and naked children. My dd 7 asked for a carder and fiber for her birthday! Lol. Next year lets get her addicted to knitting.


----------



## TomYaz

I have question about soil...

I have an acre or so that is loamy...on a plowed portion of it last fall I dumped quite a bit of horsemanure (sawdust) and worked it in the soil....and have kept it tilled till now to work out the perennial weeds. You cannot tell there was manure there as the shavings have decomposed that much, but the soil is now clumpy as heck..The rest of the acres remains nice and loamy and easy to work...will my "improved" soil ever get better in terms of clumpiness?


----------



## am1too

TomYaz said:


> I have question about soil...
> 
> I have an acre or so that is loamy...on a plowed portion of it last fall I dumped quite a bit of horsemanure (sawdust) and worked it in the soil....and have kept it tilled till now to work out the perennial weeds. You cannot tell there was manure there as the shavings have decomposed that much, but the soil is now clumpy as heck..The rest of the acres remains nice and loamy and easy to work...will my "improved" soil ever get better in terms of clumpiness?


Is it wet? 

I was just adding to my pile and noticed that my horse stall cleaning were packed pretty tight. They are wet. The dry stuff is very lose. The wet stuff is 138 degrees.

I am a little concerned about the packing and do wonder if it is the same way in the compost pile. I have layered it with grass and weeds. The compost pile is 130 say 4 inches from the top after bout 5 days. 

I also noticed where I put the stall cleanings down in the pasture it is packed with grass growing through it. Good moisture retention.


----------



## Forerunner

My experience is that time does wonders mellowing soil that has been composted under less than ideal conditions.
I build soil for the long haul.
For those who want immediate results, let the material decompose to finish before spreading, and spread/incorporate when the soil is dry enough to avoid compaction.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> My experience is that time does wonders mellowing soil that has been composted under less than ideal conditions.
> I build soil for the long haul.
> For those who want immediate results, let the material decompose to finish before spreading, and spread/incorporate when the soil is dry enough to avoid compaction.


I am curious about the packing of the saw dust. Will it compost much like a pile without it? IOW different source of carbon. Should I do my pile differently? I do like the slow method of composting. So I guess I am asking what should I expect from the saw dust? Never composted it before. I get 10 yards of horse stall cleanings every week. I would say it is bout 97% pine saw dust.


----------



## Forerunner

If your stall cleanings smell of horse and are moist enough, I say you'll get mighty fine compost in good time. 

Are your piles of that stuff heating ?
Do you smell _any_ urea in the material when you first pile it up ?


----------



## TomYaz

am1too said:


> Is it wet?
> 
> I was just adding to my pile and noticed that my horse stall cleaning were packed pretty tight. They are wet. The dry stuff is very lose. The wet stuff is 138 degrees.
> 
> I am a little concerned about the packing and do wonder if it is the same way in the compost pile. I have layered it with grass and weeds. The compost pile is 130 say 4 inches from the top after bout 5 days.
> 
> I also noticed where I put the stall cleanings down in the pasture it is packed with grass growing through it. Good moisture retention.


 
It was mostly on the dry side, but some of it was moist and steaming. I applied it in the fall and immediataly rototilled it in with the thought of preserving the nitrogen lest it evaporates. I did maybe a couple more tills the rest of the fall. Let is sit and rot all winter; by spring you could hardly tell there was wood chips there, but it tills up quite lumpy this spring/summer. Rest of the land with no manure tills up nice and smooth. I hope it loosens up by next spring as that's when I plan on putting something on it.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> If your stall cleanings smell of horse and are moist enough, I say you'll get mighty fine compost in good time.
> 
> Are your piles of that stuff heating ?
> Do you smell _any_ urea in the material when you first pile it up ?


Oh yeah did I ever. They had a morgan in the stall. She pees 5 gallons at a time.

Yes after a week they are at 130 or better.

So would the stall cleanings make compost all by themselves? I hear they will quit heating very soon.


----------



## am1too

TomYaz said:


> It was mostly on the dry side, but some of it was moist and steaming. I applied it in the fall and immediataly rototilled it in with the thought of preserving the nitrogen lest it evaporates. I did maybe a couple more tills the rest of the fall. Let is sit and rot all winter; by spring you could hardly tell there was wood chips there, but it tills up quite lumpy this spring/summer. Rest of the land with no manure tills up nice and smooth. I hope it loosens up by next spring as that's when I plan on putting something on it.


It was probably too wet to till. I have been waiting to even get in the field because of the rain. Never till wet soil. It will lump and clump. When it dries out till again. Do not till so often. Once is good enough to mix the soil.


----------



## Forerunner

am1too said:


> Oh yeah did I ever. They had a morgan in the stall. She pees 5 gallons at a time.
> 
> Yes after a week they are at 130 or better.
> 
> So would the stall cleanings make compost all by themselves? I hear they will quit heating very soon.


My experience is that generously bedded horse stall cleanings do make fine stand alone compost. I wouldn't concern myself with what I hear.....but what I see happening in front of me. 

Pile up a new one and keep us a temperature diary. :shrug:


----------



## myheaven

Hey forerunner thanks for the tip about the bones around the fruit trees. We gathered our pile and placed the remaining bones and mulched the bases. Saved me a step of grinding them. I sure do like to save time.


----------



## Paquebot

myheaven said:


> Hey forerunner thanks for the tip about the bones around the fruit trees. We gathered our pile and placed the remaining bones and mulched the bases. Saved me a step of grinding them. I sure do like to save time.


Bear in mind that many rodents like to chew on bones. That includes voles which usually aren't welcome in an orchard.

Martin


----------



## myheaven

Paquebot said:


> Bear in mind that many rodents like to chew on bones. That includes voles which usually aren't welcome in an orchard.
> 
> Martin


I already haven't trees wrapped to protect against small rodents.


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner, at what point do I need to worry about salt buildup from the urine in my humanure compost? 10 years? 20 years? Never?


----------



## Forerunner

I've no experience in that area, especially given that Illinois is rapidly turning into a temperate rainforest.

You might ask some of the scoffers and naysayers who "contribute".

Who knows, they may come back with something of value. :shrug:


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> I've no experience in that area, especially given that Illinois is rapidly turning into a temperate rainforest.
> 
> You might ask some of the scoffers and naysayers who "contribute".
> 
> Who knows, they may come back with something of value. :shrug:


Heh. Well, if the rainwater is leaching salt back out of your garden beds, then irrigation would do the same for mine, I'd think. The Humanure compost book talks about salt being a problem after awhile, but it doesn't define "awhile".

I'm so sweaty today though, that I'm like one big salt lick.


----------



## Paquebot

Ernie said:


> Heh. Well, if the rainwater is leaching salt back out of your garden beds, then irrigation would do the same for mine, I'd think. The Humanure compost book talks about salt being a problem after awhile, but it doesn't define "awhile".
> 
> I'm so sweaty today though, that I'm like one big salt lick.


"After awhile" would be the appropriate answer to such a situation due to the many combinations of factors involved. Sort of like any make of automobile motor. After awhile they will fail but there is nothing close to a definite amount of time or mileage. With manure, initial salt content, quantity used, type of soil, and amount of rainfall/irrigation would be the main factors. That applies not only to humanure but common barnyard manures as well. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

I was thinking the same thing, Martin, as I was eating some salty eggs and onions for supper. 

Sale barn manures come from cows with free access to salt, so....

Would there be such a thing as a random leach test with one's own soil....... say, run water through a sample of dirt and see if the water is even remotely reminiscent of a salt taste ?

....or would the slightest salt taste mean its way too late ?


----------



## TJadeI

I have another question. What do you do if your piles get stinky?


----------



## Forerunner

Add more....or cover with, a carbon source.

Sawdust, straw, dry grass, etc. seem to be the most common.


----------



## Guest

TJadeI said:


> I have another question. What do you do if your piles get stinky?


Shred your junk mail or newspapers or whatever and add to it. It reduces the stinkies...


----------



## Paquebot

Many sites will cite about 5% soluble salt in cow manure. If that doesn't seem like much, it would be 500# on a field if 5 tons were spread. I do know that I've had more than my share of fresh manure or wet tails in my mouth and always tasted salty!

Martin


----------



## vir2l

Can I put into the compost few liters of sugary sirup (white sugar with water) that caught mould and is no use in the kitchen? Thank you.


----------



## Paquebot

vir2l said:


> Can I put into the compost few liters of sugary sirup (white sugar with water) that caught mould and is no use in the kitchen? Thank you.


Sugar is a compost accelerator and would act similar to nitrogen when introduced to a pile. Also, a few liters of it in a large pile should not be of any concern since it is an organic product.

Martin


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> My experience is that generously bedded horse stall cleanings do make fine stand alone compost. I wouldn't concern myself with what I hear.....but what I see happening in front of me.
> 
> Pile up a new one and keep us a temperature diary. :shrug:


Well no daily record but she is holding steady at 130 after 10-14 days. I usually do not check pile temperatures except with my hand once in a while. I just got very curious because of what has been said. I'll still check the temp at least weakly.

I do have some year old stuff still 110. Yes it is a big pile.


----------



## Anonymooose

I have a confession to make. I have thoughts about burning some carbon. 

Forgive me, for I have sinned.

We have a huge huge (did I mention it's huge?) carbon pile, in the form of pine tops from a clear cut, about 2 acres worth. All piled and stacked neatly in a 12 by 100+ foot row. Every tree service guy we've talked to won't touch it. It's either too big, or one guy said, "Who knows what kind of metal is in there. It might mess up my machine." 

Wimps.

There are times in life when a girl just needs an industrial sized chipper :sob:


----------



## Forerunner

Well.....a tub grinder would be the ticket.

What is the maximum limb diameter ?


----------



## Anonymooose

Mostly about the same diameter as my forearm, 3-4 inches, mabey? But it's pine tops, so it's not one straight shot.

I don't think the local rental place has a tub grinder... lol  But I'm guessin'. Where else might one find such a machine for hire?

We've rented a 6 inch from RSC and did a couple of dumptruck loads worth. BUt this pile is monster. We have access to a grapple on a skidsteer, but with a normal chipper, you can only use the grapple to break up the pile. You still have to hand feed each piece. A tub grinder would be the ticket, I agree.

Mabey a craiglist ad? "Wanted tub grinder for hire..."


----------



## Forerunner

If it were mine, and I had the space to let it sit, I'd use that grapple to bust the stuff up as fine as is practical and bury it in other compost material.
You'd have compost in a few short years, with a little picking to do during the spreading.
....or, I'd push the stuff into low areas and bury it in compost, then level it all when broken down and fill in the low spots, kind of with a hugelkultur approach.


----------



## Anonymooose

I forgot to mention, this pile is a good 10 feet high, though it's settled a bit in the last two years. Moving it anywhere with a skidsteer would be a monumental task.

Wish I could post a picture, but photobucket doesn't work on our computer. Would someone be willing to post it for me?

I like the idea of breaking it up with the grapple. It's dried out some now, so the wood is more brittle. I've thought about letting it dry another 2 or 3 years, and then using it for firewood in our house for the next decade or two. Hugelkulture would work too, except our only low spots on the property is "wetlands". Protected, you know. 

I do think I'll take a swing at the craiglist ad. Can't hurt! And I could really use the chips.


----------



## Forerunner

Just don't burn it yet !


----------



## elkhound

Geoff Lawton worked on a permaculture project in Jordan on a small plot of land that was salt ridden .he had figs growing in 4 or 5 months on newly established trees.the local college heard about it and thought he had just flushed the salt down into the soil but they were shocked to find out they had only used small amount of water they had collected with swales they built.the water they collected would have watered 50 acres instead of just the 10acers they had.sometimes real life situations cant be explained.salt would be the last thing on my mind to worry about.


----------



## elkhound

short clip of the project.

[YOUTUBE]sohI6vnWZmk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## bja105

My small compost pile is growing a crop of unknown squash. They cold be spaghetti, blue Hubbard, or pie pumpkins, or a cross. If they end up being the Hubbard, I will probably roast the seeds. I hope we get more spaghetti squash.


----------



## CesumPec

my experience is that volunteer squash will turn out to be some sort of squmpkzini. A foul tasting mixture of the cucurbits. The fruits will often look very interesting and the pigs will eat them, but not good people food. Hopefully you have better luck than me.


----------



## Pony

CesumPec said:


> my experience is that volunteer squash will turn out to be some sort of squmpkzini. A foul tasting mixture of the cucurbits. The fruits will often look very interesting and the pigs will eat them, but not good people food. Hopefully you have better luck than me.


"Squmpkzini!" :smack

:rotfl:

We have a decent enough track record with "volunteer" cucurbits/squash to let them grow. Got one going now, though, that is providing copious amounts of vining leaves, but the fruit (which looks like acorn squash) just shrivels up and dies. 

Still, it keeps out the '***** b/c of its prickly vine. :happy:


----------



## Forerunner

squmpkzini


I looked that up in my exhaustive book of world flora.

Did you know that the latin name for it is pessi-Cesum-grouchski ? :shrug:

Squash and other viners sure do make good sunshade for a compost pile.....

I wonder if them blossoms would make good fritters or soup ? :shrug:


----------



## Pony

I will try to make time today to fry up a couple of blooms to see if they taste good.

If not, the chickens will probably eat them.


----------



## CesumPec

It was the year 1925. After a lifetime of gardening successes, Luther Burbank roamed the Amazon jungles searching for the one last great mystery veggie of his time, the one veggie discovery that had eluded mankind for eons, the one veggie, so mighty, so prolific, so awesome in every way that all the ills of man would be swept away by the fruits of the....

{drumroll} 

the pessi-cesum-grouchski or as locals who believed in this seemingly mythical gourd-like fruit called it. the squmpkzini. 

Burbank would die soon, having failed to reach his goal all because he hadn't read this thread on Homesteading Today http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...nt-propagation/456306-mighty-squmber-pix.html


----------



## Forerunner

The grumpy bear didn't waste any time setting you straight.


----------



## am1too

Some gardening books say to have not more than 30% organic matter. So I am wondering how to calculate this for say straight clay or very tan sand. I would say neither qualifies as top soil. I would till in whatever I add.

I have 2 different soils on my property. One is bout 18 inches of sand over clay and the other is bare clay.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Some gardening books say to have not more than 30% organic matter. So I am wondering how to calculate this for say straight clay or very tan sand. I would say neither qualifies as top soil. I would till in whatever I add.
> 
> I have 2 different soils on my property. One is bout 18 inches of sand over clay and the other is bare clay.


Impossible to calculate exactly. The density of the organic matter would be the biggest variable. Three inches of dry shredded leaves would initially be the same as 3 inches of finished compost. That would be if the 30% was to be incorporated and would apply no matter what type of soil is involved. If the 30% were to be the end result, that would be when the carbon portion of the material has broken down to humus. I suppose that one could detemine the amount of potential humus in the original material and then figure out how much would have to be added to arrive at a permanent 30%. As far as I know, such data does not exist. The only way to arrive at it is to continue adding compost, allowing it to fully break down, and then test for percentage of organic matter. 

On a side note, you will not be able to come close to knowing the organic matter percentage by just looking at it. A friend has been hauling loads of aged horse manure on her plots for 7 or 8 years. Soil doesn't look very much different than any other prairie silt but tests came back 40% organic matter. 

Martin


----------



## CesumPec

am1too said:


> Some gardening books say to have not more than 30% organic matter. So I am wondering how to calculate this for say straight clay or very tan sand. I would say neither qualifies as top soil. I would till in whatever I add.
> 
> I have 2 different soils on my property. One is bout 18 inches of sand over clay and the other is bare clay.


I've stated this prior in this thread, but no telling where. 

This isn't exact science, but I have read several university/peer reviewed sources that say to use this rule of thumb. The top 6.7 inches of an acre, no matter the soil type, you call 2,000,000 lbs. If your soil test came back and said you have 5% OM, you have roughly 100,000 lbs of OM/ac. And most places I've read recommended about 6 - 7% OM as the goal for the largest range of fruits and veggies, more can be better, but the cost and labor of maintaining 15%, 30%, or even more is generally not economically viable. So to raise your OM% from 5% to 6%, add another 20,000 lbs of OM. 

But the problem is that your soil just might have been at 5% because that is equilibrium with your naturally occurring local conditions. You might add another1% OM but that is good only for a year. The next year it will have decayed and maybe be only .05% or less. In hot, humid Florida, the half life of soil amendments is very short; OM decays rapidly and sorta disappears within 2 years. You can probably get a good estimate of how long your added OM will last by how long a cold compost pile takes to turn into dirt. 

The concept of half life is important because you might get a hot pile or trench that decomposes rapidly and reduces by half in a few months, but once it the pile goes cold, it might take another year to reduce by half again. 

The book I liked the best, whose title escapes my memory now, said to avoid a lot of needless scientific measuring, calculating, worrying, and decay rate testing. Just compute your additional OM needs, add that much this year, and half that much every year there after until you decide to get your garden soil tested again and then adjust your OM imports accordingly.


----------



## Paquebot

Various sources suggest different percentages of organic matter to be added annually. Generally it is 10 to 15 percent. Problem is that it is also "generic" as to what the organic matter should consist of. 15% in the form of grass clippings will do little or nothing to change the soil structure. 15% in the form of a compost based on fine-shredded leaves will change it for centuries. It's the later that I recommend since the effects are immediate and permanent insofar as the gardener is concerned.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

I think there should be strict and severe legislation passed that mandates a PHD in soil science and a Masters in bio-engineering before anyone is allowed to build a compost pile or plant a garden. 

Seriously.


The world would be a better place.


----------



## am1too

CesumPec said:


> I've stated this prior in this thread, but no telling where.
> 
> This isn't exact science, but I have read several university/peer reviewed sources that say to use this rule of thumb. The top 6.7 inches of an acre, no matter the soil type, you call 2,000,000 lbs. If your soil test came back and said you have 5% OM, you have roughly 100,000 lbs of OM/ac. And most places I've read recommended about 6 - 7% OM as the goal for the largest range of fruits and veggies, more can be better, but the cost and labor of maintaining 15%, 30%, or even more is generally not economically viable. So to raise your OM% from 5% to 6%, add another 20,000 lbs of OM.
> 
> But the problem is that your soil just might have been at 5% because that is equilibrium with your naturally occurring local conditions. You might add another1% OM but that is good only for a year. The next year it will have decayed and maybe be only .05% or less. In hot, humid Florida, the half life of soil amendments is very short; OM decays rapidly and sorta disappears within 2 years. You can probably get a good estimate of how long your added OM will last by how long a cold compost pile takes to turn into dirt.
> 
> The concept of half life is important because you might get a hot pile or trench that decomposes rapidly and reduces by half in a few months, but once it the pile goes cold, it might take another year to reduce by half again.
> 
> The book I liked the best, whose title escapes my memory now, said to avoid a lot of needless scientific measuring, calculating, worrying, and decay rate testing. Just compute your additional OM needs, add that much this year, and half that much every year there after until you decide to get your garden soil tested again and then adjust your OM imports accordingly.


I hazard to guess weight is the only way to approach the %.

So far I think I am doing OK. It is interesting how things affect the soil. I am gathering more leaves. Some is fall clean up from a pile of 50,000 yards. It is nice and damp. I'll rake leaves in town this fall. A neighbor paid me $150 to rake and remove 100 yards of leaves. Yep they were deep. Right now they are smothering an invasive weed.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> I hazard to guess weight is the only way to approach the %.


You are quite correct for determining both before and after percentages. When I am hauling leaves and see 15-20 bags neatly piled beside the curb, the first in line tells me if they will be a load. If I can pick up the bag with one hand, that's as far as it goes. I see little reason to be hauling air which would not be in a bag of shredded material. That's similar to the difference between a tub of chainsaw sawdust or a round the size of the tub. Volume is the same but density is very much different.

Martin


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> You are quite correct for determining both before and after percentages. When I am hauling leaves and see 15-20 bags neatly piled beside the curb, the first in line tells me if they will be a load. If I can pick up the bag with one hand, that's as far as it goes. I see little reason to be hauling air which would not be in a bag of shredded material. That's similar to the difference between a tub of chainsaw sawdust or a round the size of the tub. Volume is the same but density is very much different.
> 
> Martin


That is why I have a pick up and trailer. I'm thinking about a shredder to use on site. I can pick one up at auction or new for a few bucks.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> That is why I have a pick up and trailer. I'm thinking about a shredder to use on site. I can pick one up at auction or new for a few bucks.


If you were closer, I'd give you a Merry Mac chipper-shredder which no longer chips. Does a decent job of shredding but was designed to be used with a big nylon bag to catch the leaves. Without it, the stuff is sprayed over a wide area. Had to rely on that when I only had a car and most leaves were from walking and carrying distance. With a pickup for past 11 years, I can be more particular and let others accomplish the same thing with their riding and bagging mowers.

Martin


----------



## calfisher

> I think there should be strict and severe legislation passed that mandates a PHD in soil science and a Masters in bio-engineering before anyone is allowed to build a compost pile or plant a garden.


I passed that mandate following and reading this thread. 

Seriously dudes, mix that crap in and plant something! :duel:


----------



## Pony

Forerunner said:


> I think there should be strict and severe legislation passed that mandates a PHD in soil science and a Masters in bio-engineering before anyone is allowed to build a compost pile or plant a garden.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> 
> The world would be a better place.


And where would one earn this PhD - a state indoctrination center? <snrk> Yeah, then no one would be composting, not even the "experts" in the field.


----------



## am1too

calfisher said:


> I passed that mandate following and reading this thread.
> 
> Seriously dudes, mix that crap in and plant something! :duel:


Dat what I do.


----------



## Paquebot

Pony said:


> And where would one earn this PhD - a state indoctrination center? <snrk> Yeah, then no one would be composting, not even the "experts" in the field.


Seriously, it is possible. I've a friend who first studied in his home country of Ethiopia. From there, he advanced his studies in Russia and furthered his degrees in Louisiana. He easily cited compost facts and data which I would have to refer to Rodale's book. His PhD was in Agronomy. The use of natural fertilizers in his home country is very critical since any synthetics must be imported. And what are natural fertilizers? They are compost! 

Martin


----------



## Oswego

My pile has been cooking along nicely but in the last week I had 9 1/4 inches of rain. To be safe today I spread it all out with the tractor bucket and then piled it back up. I guess I was worried it had got too wet and maybe lowered the Oxygen level for the little workers in the pile. Either way it has fresh oxygen and mixed even better than before.


----------



## CesumPec

Forerunner said:


> I think there should be strict and severe legislation passed that mandates a PHD in soil science and a Masters in bio-engineering before anyone is allowed to build a compost pile or plant a garden.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> 
> The world would be a better place.


You are aware that PHD stands for piled higher & deeper?


----------



## Forerunner

......and I suppose _Masters_ is "mix and stack to encourage rotting, stupid" ?

I swear, the nonsensical dialogue that passes for conversation in here. :indif:

Where's a moderator when you need one ? :smack:


----------



## CesumPec

Masters, I like it! But it wasn't nice. See Yahgre:


----------



## Forerunner

*kicks CP in the shin............ hard*


:heh:





I have a new compost pile. *pops a top button off his pride-swelled shirt*

It's putting off the aroma and everything......steaming vigorously, even on a muggy hot morning.

*is nearly overcome with giddiness*


----------



## Studhauler

I regret that I can no longer share my composting online as the county I live in has rules about how much "fill" one can bring to the property without having a permit. I don't want proof in print or picture of what I am doing. I might even go back and edit out some of what I have posted so far.


----------



## CesumPec

Studhauler said:


> I regret that I can no longer share my composting online as the county I live in has rules about how much "fill" one can bring to the property without having a permit. I don't want proof in print or picture of what I am doing. I might even go back and edit out some of what I have posted so far.


Maybe you can tell us about your "friend" who lives in the next county over.


----------



## Studhauler

Maybe the next state over.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Courtesy of U of Florida:

Fertilizer values typical of composted carcass material contain 25 lb of nitrogen/ton, 13 lb of phosphorous/ton, and 7 lb of potassium/ton.


----------



## Studhauler

That's a lot of road kill deer to get a pound of nitrogen.


----------



## Forerunner

SH....were I in your situation, I believe I'd continue on with confidence, as you are not changing the topography in any regard, only amending the soil with natural nutrients.

Is this just something you've recently stumbled upon, or are you being harassed ?


----------



## myheaven

Anyone willing to help me flip pictures. I have updated pictures of my little neglected garden 19 after the first I posted. I tried desperately to flip them today but it just won't work and I have no more time to try.


----------



## Forerunner

Go ahead and post them pichers.

Either someone talented will help out, or we'll all turn out monitors upside down.


----------



## myheaven

18 or 19 days from last photo. I have pulled a total of 10 weeds. It's so neglected.


----------



## myheaven

Cabbage heads are big as extra large grapefruit or small cantaloupe. Broccoli needs to be harvested again.


----------



## myheaven

Tomatoes a plenty.


----------



## myheaven

Way mor bets sprouted then I ever dreamed. Radishes a plenty and spinach. They have only been in the ground 10 days.


----------



## CesumPec

Very nice, myheaven. I couldn't do a garden this year, you're making me very jealous.


----------



## myheaven

Ok enough making people sick.


----------



## myheaven

I don't think I'd have a garden. This was a last second ok we're staying at our house and now we need a garden. I put it in on June 4th. A month later then normal for me. I used containers to give me more room.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Looking good, Beth!!


----------



## YamahaRick

Here ya go.


----------



## Forerunner

Thanks Rick. 

My neck feels better, already.

Having met Myheaven personally, I'm pretty sure she posts her pichers sideways and upside down for orneriness. :indif:


----------



## myheaven

Thank you yamahaRick! I tried all yesterday to rotate pictures on my phone and post and still they are all messed up! I had to give up. I could do no more! 
Now if it was pictures today Tim you would be correct!


----------



## myheaven

I have hundreds of tomatoes on my plants already with massive amounts of flowers too!


----------



## Paquebot

Can't say that you haven't had enough rain to produce all of that. In my home garden, dare not stand still for 5 minutes or something will grab me! If not grapes or poles beans don't get me, then anchote will surely beat them both.

By the way, today marks 50 years of composting in the same location. Bought the home on 7-7-63. Three days later I was stripping sod for 1964's garden and that sod was the basis for the original pile. Treated the tumbler today with 5 gallons of loft droppings. Need to build up a little heat to cook some culled pigeons. Nothing conventional about any of my compost batches!

Martin


----------



## myheaven

I wish we would get some rain. We haven't had a good amount from about may. At night you hear the hum of the desil water irrigation pumps all around me in the marshes. I'm surrounded by bluffs. only way we get rain is by a storm moving in from the north west. We're in a weird area. Beautiful but weird of how rain goes around us. 2 miles up the road from us always gets soaked. Their corn looks great.


----------



## Studhauler

I will continue with confidence in my composting but I will limit what I share; no need to advertise what I do. I am not bringing "fill" in, I am bringing fertilizer in. All farmer bring fertilizer in without a permit.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

I hear you, myheaven. After a cool, wet spring, we desperately need rain right now. My sweet hubby (and sometimes Paul) was able to procure _two _250 gallon water containers. Now to scavenge the gutters and piping to fill the tanks off our barn roof (one good rain could do it!)

I've been picking sweet banana peppers, slicing into rings and throwing in a dill vinegar brine and the cucumbers are starting to come on strong! Canning season is here! Woot!

I had the pleasure of viewing FR's garden these last few days. Beautiful! The size of the zuchinni, onions, taters & carrots was outstanding (and very yummy!)

FR ... you'll have to ask Matt about weeding the onions with a hoe ... he just got hoe privileges taken away this morning, at least when weeding onions!! To his good standing, he was up and in the garden weeding before I got up this morning .... just a bit over zealously with the first 2 rows of onions!! 

Good thing I have plenty of rows of onions!


----------



## Forerunner

Time to make lots of onion rings.........

(or pickled onion slices ? :grin: )


----------



## RomeGrower

Me? I'm eating tomatoes and cucumbers every day now.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Studhauler said:


> I will continue with confidence in my composting but I will limit what I share; no need to advertise what I do. I am not bringing "fill" in, I am bringing fertilizer in. All farmer bring fertilizer in without a permit.


I dare anyone to build on top of a pile of wood chips! Although, properly constructed, it could keep you pretty warm for a while. I wonder if anyone has buried a container in mulch?


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Any one near VA need carbon?

http://www.ncwastetrader.org/MaterialFullInfo.aspx?ID=2652


----------



## YamahaRick

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> Any one near VA need carbon?
> 
> http://www.ncwastetrader.org/MaterialFullInfo.aspx?ID=2652


Dang! If only I had the land and transport was free ...


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner, I'm new here and just starting on this wonderful thread. I thought I went a bit overboard on the composting, but you put my pathetic efforts to shame. It is nice to meet a kindred spirit. What you are doing is fantastic, I love what you are doing on your farm, and you have shared some remarkable things about your family. You have my sincere condolences about the loss of your wife and child.

You certainly have chosen an unconventional path, and while I'm far too much of a greedy capitalist pig to do the same, I admire any man who lives his dream and puts feet to his faith.

I look forward to continuing to read further thru this thread and learn even more about your farm. I would love to visit your farm one day and see the place for myself. 

Cheers


----------



## Forerunner

Why, thanks, DEKE.

I believe I do sense a kindred spirit. 

But that was funny what you said about going overboard with the composting. :heh:

Do you, perchance, have a state-issued comedic license ? :huh:


----------



## katy

Forerunner said:


> Why, thanks, DEKE.
> 
> I believe I do sense a kindred spirit.
> 
> But that was funny what you said about going overboard with the composting. :heh:
> 
> Do you, perchance, have a state-issued comedic license ? :huh:


LOL @Forerunner, you are at your best in comedy..........


----------



## katy

DEKE01 said:


> Forerunner, I'm new here and just starting on this wonderful thread. I thought I went a bit overboard on the composting, but you put my pathetic efforts to shame. It is nice to meet a kindred spirit. What you are doing is fantastic, I love what you are doing on your farm, and you have shared some remarkable things about your family. You have my sincere condolences about the loss of your wife and child.
> 
> You certainly have chosen an unconventional path, and while I'm far too much of a greedy capitalist pig to do the same, I admire any man who lives his dream and puts feet to his faith.
> 
> I look forward to continuing to read further thru this thread and learn even more about your farm. I would love to visit your farm one day and see the place for myself.
> 
> Cheers


Deke01, Welcome to the forum, it's a great way to learn. I've been away for a few days, did I miss your pics ? We love pics and some even say, "no pics, it didn't happen" lol


----------



## DEKE01

katy said:


> Deke01, Welcome to the forum, it's a great way to learn. I've been away for a few days, did I miss your pics ? We love pics and some even say, "no pics, it didn't happen" lol


Thank you for the welcome and yes, I am learning quite a bit, but so far that has not extended to how to post photos. Besides, up till now I didn't think that a photo of a compost pile was something someone would like to see.


----------



## Pony

DEKE01 said:


> Thank you for the welcome and yes, I am learning quite a bit, but so far that has not extended to how to post photos. Besides, up till now I didn't think that a photo of a compost pile was something someone would like to see.


Srsly?  Why would anyone NOT love seeing photos of compost? 

Compost rocks.


----------



## myheaven

See deke01 now you know the real meaning of life. Luscious compost, robust gardens, succulent veggies. The joy of posting pictures of your "babies" you know the ones that grew in the garden. The lusty piles you create. Yeah that's real living!


----------



## Idum

Pony said:


> Compost rocks.



If only we could......


----------



## Forerunner

I taught a series of classes to some Chicago folks a couple years ago......all about composting on the small.
We discussed the breezeway, the garage, the closet, the basement and under the kitchen sink, all with well received enthusiasm. 
Each time I visit my host family up there, I get wind or first person accounts of the successes of various of those who attended and put the concepts into practice.

Where there's a will, there's a way, Idum. :thumb:


----------



## am1too

Still reporting as requested but not a regular basis. The temp in my horse stall cleanings is back to 138 after 3.3 inches of rain last week. This is not regular compost. Simply daily horse stall cleanings.

My compost pile with the same stuff and green unshredded weeds is bout 140.


----------



## Studhauler

I don't have a thermometer but I think my compost pile is just a big wet gooey sponge fermenting away. I recently add two big wheel barrel loads of weed from the beach and three big wheel barrel loads of weed fro the garden, with not much carbon to put on an already nitrogen rich pile. As soon as the leaves turn brown I can get the pile back in balance for the fall and winter.


----------



## DEKE01

Well, I've just read this entire thread. This thread is what has kept me at HT. While I thought I knew a lot about compost, there is so much of value here. I learned and relearned lots of things and have gotten lots of ideas for improving my own modest efforts. 

There were times I wanted to comment, laugh, and even argue, but I would have been replying to 2+ year old posts. Lots of good stuff, but occasionally the odd comment or three that just makes you want to scratch your noggin and pound the keyboard. It seems that the occasional drama and angst has gone missing for a while so I think I'll...:stirpot:

If you can remember that far back, I now want to become a "compost hoarder", and I believe that big piles work better than bins, barrels, or trenches (OK, OK, at least for my circumstances, to each his own). 

Thanks to (almost) all who contributed.


----------



## TJadeI

I want a few big piles too... ok maybe more than a few.. I'd love it if a certain few people suddenly went missing and the government dug up a few old text messages and decided to dig through my piles looking for them... I'd get a real kick out of sitting back and watching them dig through all that manure... tee hee hee 

not saying they'd find anything... but it would be fun to watch none the less


----------



## am1too

Studhauler said:


> I don't have a thermometer but I think my compost pile is just a big wet gooey sponge fermenting away. I recently add two big wheel barrel loads of weed from the beach and three big wheel barrel loads of weed fro the garden, with not much carbon to put on an already nitrogen rich pile. As soon as the leaves turn brown I can get the pile back in balance for the fall and winter.


I'm using an oven meat thermometer.


----------



## Bearsfan

After 3 years and 200lbs of coffee grounds I finally had some steam coming out of the pile when I turned it. Finally all those old hay bales are breaking down. That made me excited.


----------



## Bearsfan

I don't know if I want #31 any where near my carrots. 



http://www.naturallivingideas.com/weird-things-to-put-in-compost/


----------



## Forerunner

Just, ummm.........._compost_ them first. :whistlin:


----------



## On Horseback

A beautiful morning.
View attachment 12978


View attachment 12981


----------



## Forerunner

Now *THAT'S* what _I'm_ talkin' about. :thumb:


----------



## Studhauler

FR, I like your signature.

Reminds me of a saying I once heard somewhere, it was either from a movie or my father. "Never get into a fight with an old guy, they might be to old to fight and will just kill you instead."


----------



## Forerunner

Blame Ozarks Tom. 

He sent me the story about old Samuel, in an email.


----------



## Ernie

Hey, Forerunner ...

Do you think a healthy compost pile can absorb certain quantities of muriatic acid? Or should I find somewhere else to dump this stuff?


----------



## dablack

Well, six weeks away from moving in, the house that I've been building for a year burned down on the 11th. I was just about to start wiring and a big storm blew in and lightning hit the house. Burned it to the ground along with the RV parked next to the house. I'm going to pull out all the metal, granite, tile board, and other noncompostable bits and compost the rest. 

The RV was a 1990 E350 with 40k miles on it with a 460 and C6 automatic. 

We are going to rebuild but we have to get out of rent right now (bills) so we are moving a small manufactured home onsite. NOTE: Nope, no insurance, we were building it ourselves and had trouble finding it, so we went without. 

My question is, we are planning on having to do lots of soil improvements. I'm hoping to bring in lots of organic material. The 460/C6 from the RV are still ok or at least should be. What would be the best use of the 460/C6 to complete our goals? A big dump truck? A big flat bed? I'm also planning on getting a saw mill so the flat bed would help bring in logs. With all that said, I already have a good F250. Would I be better off with a dump trailer?

thanks
Austin


----------



## MOgal

Austin, that is so sad. Sorry about all your hard work and effort literally gone up in smoke.


----------



## Forerunner

You could make a dump trailer out of that RV frame.....or go flatbed with dump.

I know all about devastating setbacks.

Kudos to you jumping right back on that rowdy horse. :buds:


----------



## Forerunner

Ernst.......

If my understanding is correct, your soil is already alkaline, to some degree.
I'd cut that muriatic with about three parts water and spread it all around the compost pile.
Those microbes can do, especially if you help 'em out like that.


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> Ernst.......
> 
> If my understanding is correct, your soil is already alkaline, to some degree.
> I'd cut that muriatic with about three parts water and spread it all around the compost pile.
> Those microbes can do, especially if you help 'em out like that.


Hrm. I'm wondering how much our piles can absorb. I may be generating a substantial amount.

I poured it on the limestone gravel in the driveway and then it foamed and steamed for a minute and disappeared. It essentially just became salty water at that point, so the book said.


----------



## myheaven

Well dh turned the pile today. A calf died and I had to start a new compost pile. I have a picture if anyone is willing to turn it. Only thing left of a 500 lbs calf and 2 fully grown goats is there gut contents. It was awesome! The tan stuff is stomach and intestinal contents.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Ernst.......
> 
> If my understanding is correct, your soil is already alkaline, to some degree.
> I'd cut that muriatic with about three parts water and spread it all around the compost pile.
> Those microbes can do, especially if you help 'em out like that.


I was having a similar thought. Where I am putting in blueberries, I need to move the PH down about 1.5 points. A few drops of muriatic acid in the irrigation water might be a cheap fix. Maybe Martin will weigh in as to the validity of the idea.


----------



## dablack

Forerunner said:


> You could make a dump trailer out of that RV frame.....or go flatbed with dump.
> 
> I know all about devastating setbacks.
> 
> Kudos to you jumping right back on that rowdy horse. :buds:


Thanks. I didn't even think about the RV frame. I will for sure think about that. 

Yeah, we aren't going to stop. I'm too mean to give up. I learned TONS building the house and all that knowledge won't be wasted.


----------



## Paquebot

DEKE01 said:


> I was having a similar thought. Where I am putting in blueberries, I need to move the PH down about 1.5 points. A few drops of muriatic acid in the irrigation water might be a cheap fix. Maybe Martin will weigh in as to the validity of the idea.


You won't find many sources which claim muriatic acid is a good thing for soil. It indeed does quickly lower the pH but that's not the only effect. For starters, try this link:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/muriatic-acid-safe-acidify-soil-gardens-80524.html

As for adding it to a compost pile, it's a matter of how much acid is used and how big the pile is. If it only amounts to a tablespoon per cubic foot, I would not worry about it. Bacteria working the compost might think otherwise but they will eventually recover as the acid is leached out.

Martin


----------



## RomeGrower

A couple weeks ago I was taking some trash to the road and a truck pulled up beside me. A guy leaned out the passenger window and said: "Could you use a load of wood chips?" I said: "Yes I could". They weren't long backing in the driveway and dropping a whole load of very fresh wood chips from a tree that fell on someone's house a couple blocks away overnight. We just started digging into it this week and it's nice and hot inside and becoming a very usable mulch that is already making it's way around the tomatoes, blueberries and blackberries, apple trees and other new trees in the yard. Perhaps our extensive gardens made us a natural stop for the tree crew. I'm not sure, but I am VERY thankful.


----------



## DEKE01

Thanks Martin, good link and info.


----------



## YamahaRick

myheaven said:


> I have a picture if anyone is willing to turn it.


Here ya go.


----------



## myheaven

Hey Rick I should just get ahold of you and send you the pics to post. 

I put the animals in the pile I think may. Everything was frozen still. Matter of fact the ground still had snow and a huge chunk if ice on the ground. Here is end of July and all I seen is one bone and a small peice of fur from hema the buck. Well and the stomach contents.


----------



## Pugi

Thought I would jump in here, I've been lurking for about a year. Not a homesteader unfortunately. Stuck on 1/3 acre in a small town. I have a good size organic garden and every year (8 years) I have been tilling in about 12 inches of leaves in it. The garden produces well in the river bottom clay. My problem is the dirt sets up fairly hard and I feel the garden could do better, so I'm switching to compost. I have spot I could make a pallet type setup that is 4' x 16'. I'm thinking about making it one big bin filling it with leaves and manure. Any how, great thread all. Thanx for giving me inspiration. Being we all like pictures, here you go. Pugi


----------



## Paquebot

Pugi said:


> Thought I would jump in here, I've been lurking for about a year. Not a homesteader unfortunately. Stuck on 1/3 acre in a small town. I have a good size organic garden and every year (8 years) I have been tilling in about 12 inches of leaves in it. The garden produces well in the river bottom clay. My problem is the dirt sets up fairly hard and I feel the garden could do better, so I'm switching to compost. I have spot I could make a pallet type setup that is 4' x 16'. I'm thinking about making it one big bin filling it with leaves and manure. Any how, great thread all. Thanx for giving me inspiration. Being we all like pictures, here you go. Pugi


Use both systems. After 8 years, you know the power of those leaves as far as nutrients are concerned. What's happening is that the leaves don't hold together long enough to make a difference in the soil structure. If you compost them, they'll break down in the pile and they won't be nearly as effective in preventing the soil from setting up. Best would be to continue with the leaves as usual since you know that that works for production. Use the manure and leaf compost for extra nutrients only rather than trying to change the structure.

Martin


----------



## Pugi

Thanx Martin, I forgot to mention, wood chips will be applied on top of the soil next year to keep weeds down, lock in the compost nutrients and begin to make the soil looser in the years to come. SWMBO can use the compost as well in her flower pots, which should save me from buying many bags a year. The grass is going to get renovated as well. I need to level the yard badly, a nice top coat of compost will help there as well. Btw I read the whole thread.:screwy:


----------



## Paquebot

Wood chips change everything as far as advice on what to use. Depending upon size, they may be effective for up to 3 or 4 years when used along with manure. Being mostly carbon, they have the added advantage of becoming humus and that will help change the soil structure longer than you live.

In our community gardens, a few of us have had to prove the effectiveness of leaves. There was one plot which had received only a mix of oak and maple leaves since it was established in 2006. No manure and no fertilizers of any kind, organic or otherwise were ever used. Soil was tested by the UW Soil Lab. Nitrogen was sufficient at 82 ppm, phosphorus was high at 95 ppm, and potassium sufficient at 153 ppm. Those levels have been maintained only via leaves.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

I mulch with wood chips every year.

(Kudos to you, Romegrower, for your recent good fortune ! :thumb: )

I use wood chips down the garden paths, around the perimeter and around just about everything except the corn. Corn gets "mulched" with half rotted manure, piled next to the crop as a compost pile, to keep down weeds and feed the crop all summer.

Every year, all those wood chips get disked in, along with copious quantities of finished compost. Sure, there's evidence of last year's chips for a season, maybe two if they were especially coarse, but the compost supplies plenty of nitrogen to offset the effects of any little ole wood chip that might be festering about.

IF you were to plow a load of wood chips into the soil, some mid-spring day, and then plant a crop of corn or cabbage, you'd see nitrogen deficiency, sure enough, but mulching with them is a win/win.

My most successful effort at permanently changing soil structure was experimental, and intentional. I spread several inches of aged hardwood sawdust--still quite sawdust but browned in an old pile-- and ripped it in deep and extensively, in an area comprising a quarter acre.
Right on schedule, it was about 18 months before plant life looked close to normal in that area, and the following year I put in wheat or oats. That heavily sawdusted area gave me the quickest and most uniform germination, the most robust growth, and the heaviest and most weed-free portion of crop. That was over ten years ago. To this day that spot discs up to a black fluff, and the green there is noteworthy when the crop is up.

Bottom line for me has been, if you want to change soil structure, yer gunna have to apply lots of organic matter. Compost works best, but there are other and more drastic options, depending on your time frame restrictions, resource availability and space considerations.
I have found, also, that a certain conservative political bent adds greatly to one's success as a soil-builder, but that may be my imagination. :shrug:


----------



## Oswego

Going tomorrow to load my trailer up with ground up peanut hulls maybe three or four yards of it. Then when its unloaded I'll go and get some more fresh cow manure from the dairy. I turned my existing pile yesterday and made room for new pile behind it. I'm thinking the little microbes will have easier time digesting the finely ground peanut hulls than the sawdust.
The pile I turned yesterday had about lost its heat but was still moist enough so maybe the fresh oxygen will heat it back up again, if not then it must be ready. Does not look like manure or sawdust anymore. Looks and feels like rich soft soil. Pile is 7 ft high and well over 12 ft diameter at bottom.
time to start building my raised bed frames for a fall planting of veggies.


----------



## Oswego

Went ahead and picked up my manure this afternoon and will get crushed peanut shells in the morning with other trailer. Hopefully my back will hold out with all the shovel work to get it all unloaded and mixed.


----------



## Forerunner

Peanuts ready down there, Os ?

Mine are still recovering from the cold, wet spring.....and a coupe incidents with an escaped ram. :flame:


----------



## Oswego

Forerunner said:


> Peanuts ready down there, Os ?
> 
> Mine are still recovering from the cold, wet spring.....and a coupe incidents with an escaped ram. :flame:


Not ready yet but will be by September. These peanut hulls are at a peanut buying place and they are last year's hulls. They grind them up to add to other stuff to make pellet cattle feed. The ones I am getting did not pass the quality test for the feed.
With the new crop coming soon they have to get all of last years crop out and the place cleaned up before this crop is ready. Fine with me because I think the ground up hulls will make compost a little faster than sawdust.


----------



## Forerunner

Without grabbing my Rodale's Complete..........

I dare say that peanut hulls carry a little more N than sawdust, and they should make fabulous compost especially being pre-ground for you.......

Any chance we could get a picher, say, the first morning you get up a good head of steam ?

Maybe even a picher of ground peanut hulls in the raw ?


----------



## am1too

Has anyone had their compost tested? Just wondering. I'm thinking about getting some of mine tested. It would be interesting just know exactly what I'm really putting into my soil.


----------



## Forerunner

You mean like an SAT test, or some kind of entrance exam ?

I didn't know we could do that. :gaptooth:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> You mean like an SAT test, or some kind of entrance exam ?
> 
> I didn't know we could do that. :gaptooth:


Naw soil tests are widely promoted. An Aussie said they were for sissies though.


----------



## Forerunner

Really ? 

An Aussie said that ?

Which one ? 

I've often wondered what gratification one might experience for having his soil test rejected for a statistical impossibility, but never have bothered to follow through with it.

My gardens generally tell me enough, though there is always that lingering curiosity......


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Really ?
> 
> An Aussie said that ?
> 
> Which one ?
> 
> I've often wondered what gratification one might experience for having his soil test rejected for a statistical impossibility, but never have bothered to follow through with it.
> 
> My gardens generally tell me enough, though there is always that lingering curiosity......


To a point I certainly agree. Dad told me not marry looks and look at cooks. IOW the wrapping ain't everything.


----------



## Kristinemomof3

This is my first time posting here, but we helped with a wedding last night and I asked the coffee bar that was there to save me their coffee grounds for my compost. Got about two gallons full! I should add that we live in a quarter acre lot, I have very unextreme composting going on here.


----------



## Forerunner

Bravo!! :grin:

I can just envision a suave young lady, such as yourself, sidling up to the bar, leaning on an elbow and looking the bartender straight in the eyes....cool and deadpan.

"What can I get you, Miss ?", he quips in query.

"Gimme yer leftover coffee grounds...... all of 'em.
I got a happenin' compost pile at home an' I wanna surprise my thermophilic work crew.
They'll blow a gasket, bless their microscopic hearts."


:bow:







Extremism, BTW, rests appropriately in the eye of the beholder. :thumb:


----------



## Oswego

Forerunner said:


> Without grabbing my Rodale's Complete..........
> 
> I dare say that peanut hulls carry a little more N than sawdust, and they should make fabulous compost especially being pre-ground for you.......


Yesterday when shoveling the ground up shells to mix with my cow manure I added some water to the shells near the back of the trailer to reduce the dust and make the shoveling a more pleasant experience.

This morning I discovered that the area I had added water to was HOT. So they must have a good bit of nitrogen. I will now add less manure and more peanut shells as I build my new pile.


----------



## Paquebot

Regardless of source of data, peanut hulls are high in nitrogen. Rodale lists the NPK value at 3.6-.70-.45. 

Martin


----------



## myheaven

Update on new pile. Dh went and dug a hole in the new pile with dead calf. He cleaned the fridge out for me as I took a 5 hrs nap! I have been "working" hard lately. So his labor of love to me was to clean the fridge. 
He said the pile was so hot it was like the stove was on. So after a week the pile is so hot we could easily get hot water from it! Not too shabby!


----------



## Oswego

Paquebot said:


> Regardless of source of data, peanut hulls are high in nitrogen. Rodale lists the NPK value at 3.6-.70-.45.
> 
> Martin


Seems that peanut hulls(shells) have a good bit more nitrogen than fresh cow manure. I believe they are also mostly carbon(brown) so why not just use it instead of cow manure if you have a good supply. Add other things for varied other beneficial nutrients.


----------



## Forerunner

That cow manure, even in small quantities, will boost your bacteria count fabulously.

The peanut hulls are a near-balanced blend for C/N, but bacteria is still a magical and crucial ingredient, right alongside of water, as you've already discovered.


----------



## Forerunner

Myheaven, why _haven't_ you run tubing through that pile and begun your extreme water heating operation ? *taps toe impatiently*


----------



## scott

I need a good carbon source and a big truck and maybe a boat.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/news/weeklynews/july13/lake-erie-habs.html

I heard a news story this morning and it got my mind racing.


----------



## Forerunner

scott said:


> I need a good carbon source and a big truck and maybe a boat.


At first glance, I thought maybe you lived near Washington, D.C. :shrug:


----------



## myheaven

Forerunner said:


> Myheaven, why _haven't_ you run tubing through that pile and begun your extreme water heating operation ? *taps toe impatiently*


Tim you must forgive my dh. He is new to this. Even though I have been composting many years in his absence. He takes things slowly. This is now wetting his whistle. Just wait till I bring up the whole heating the greenhouse with hot water from the compost! That's going to send him spinning! I think he may hyperventilate! Lol!

When we came down for the homesteading weekend he was too concerned about me having a good time he didn't ask you questions. At least we have next year. I don't think he comprehends your piles! His poor brain can't wrap around the whole 25 foot tall pile! I'm a patient woman always have been with him. 

My dh is a visual learner he has to see hear and touch to understand the concept. Give him time Tim.


----------



## Forerunner

I still say ya'll need to make the trip down south to see the magic. :shrug:

Plenty of room to camp and plenty of ponds to swim in.......


----------



## Oswego

New pile I built this weekend with ground up peanut hulls and cow manure just measured 138 F with digital thermometer 6 inches deep into pile.


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> My most successful effort at permanently changing soil structure was experimental, and intentional. I spread several inches of aged hardwood sawdust--still quite sawdust but browned in an old pile-- and ripped it in deep and extensively, in an area comprising a quarter acre.
> Right on schedule, it was about 18 months before plant life looked close to normal in that area, and the following year I put in wheat or oats. That heavily sawdusted area gave me the quickest and most uniform germination, the most robust growth, and the heaviest and most weed-free portion of crop. That was over ten years ago. To this day that spot discs up to a black fluff, and the green there is noteworthy when the crop is up.



I am sure this has been talked about in the prior pages, but remind me why it took 18 months for your soil to start producing after you plowed in the sawdust.


----------



## Oswego

I think its because the sawdust sucked up the nitrogen from the dirt.


----------



## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> I am sure this has been talked about in the prior pages, but remind me why it took 18 months for your soil to start producing after you plowed in the sawdust.





Oswego said:


> I think its because the sawdust sucked up the nitrogen from the dirt.


yup.


----------



## Studhauler

So, if the sawdust has all the nitrogen, after 18 months, were did the new nitrogen come from in the dirt to make plants grow?


----------



## Forerunner

The sawdust, i.e. carbon, draws from every source around it to procure the nitrogen needed to feed the breakdown microbes.

The carbon WANTS nitrogen, see..... there is an attraction.....

Anyhow, when enough nitrogen from the soil, the air, rain, snow, rotting vegetation, the occasional commune, etc. presents itself to facilitate the breakdown of the sawdust to soil, then the nitrogen is once again released and made available to the plants, and the world again realizes balance.

It's a yin/yang thing. :shrug:


----------



## myheaven

Tim we want to make the trip down soon. Dh has to finish his last Leo class then I have to throw a major party and we will be free to come down and see y'all. Well see how things go.


----------



## Oswego

Temperature update on pile started this past weekend. 145 F, six inches deep in pile.
I am getting me some more ground up peanut hulls while they are available.


----------



## DEKE01

My bud paid $175 for a load of dirt that is mostly sand so he could fill some low spots in his horse dry lot and stalls; he is going to need at least one more load. Yesterday Asplunhd was in his neighborhood and I told him to get the FREE chips. There was no way I could talk him into it. I explained how they would be even better than dirt while they held up and would be dirt soon enough. I gave up, wishing those chips were closer to my farm because I have 1001 uses for them.


----------



## am1too

The horse stall cleanings are starting to go down in temp. They are now running 130 bout 6 inches deep. They were at 140 for 3 weeks.


----------



## Oswego

am1too said:


> The horse stall cleanings are starting to go down in temp. They are now running 130 bout 6 inches deep. They were at 140 for 3 weeks.


My old pile had started cooling off two weeks ago so I turned it with the tractor and it has heated back up to a point. I think it was low on oxygen and the little microbe workers were gasping. Before turning it was about 100 degrees, after turning it went back up to 118 degrees.


----------



## am1too

Oswego said:


> My old pile had started cooling off two weeks ago so I turned it with the tractor and it has heated back up to a point. I think it was low on oxygen and the little microbe workers were gasping. Before turning it was about 100 degrees, after turning it went back up to 118 degrees.


I'm stock piling it next to the growing compost pile. I also spread it bout 2 inches deep out in the pasture.


----------



## Oswego

I am a member of a local group that gets together once a month to share information and ideas on a variety of subjects.
Tonight I am giving a presentation on COMPOSTING. I'll do my best to make y'all proud.
I just put some 145 degree compost in a small insulated container as part of my "show and tell" , I also have some finished compost and I think I'll go and put some fresh cow manure in a plastic container as an additional prop for the presentation.
I'll for sure mention this site as my source of valuable information.


----------



## Forerunner

Well now you've gone and done it.

We'll be expecting a full report...... :thumb:


----------



## Oswego

I thought it went very well, had bunch of questions and several came up after to talk compost. Did not have anyone open the ziplock bag with the cow manure to check out the aroma.
I mentioned that communing with the pile has to happen to get maximum benefit from compost.
Gave out the forum info and how to find this thread


----------



## Pony

Oswego said:


> I mentioned that communing with the pile has to happen to get maximum benefit from compost.


LOL! So you suggested that they grok the compost? :rotfl:


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## Bearsfan

Cardboard.... Just installed kitchen cabinets next door and have a lot of boxes leftover. Can I put them in the garden and let them over winter and till them in or should I put the compost pile over them and let them rot? There is no ink or plastic coating.


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## Forerunner

You could save them over the winter and use them between rows for mulch, next growing season.....and pile a little of whatever other mulching materials you have over top of them.....
Or you could mix them into a compost pile now.
Or, if you do put them in the garden now, put a little finished compost or weeds or straw over them to hold moisture on them and to keep them from blowing away.

Cardboard is generally good stuff.


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## MOgal

Forerunner beat me to it but my favorite use is on the ground to further smother weeds and extend my mulch supply. I get pallet sized sheets of cardboard from my feed supplier that had been used to pad bagged feeds, etc., from the slats and they work great. 

Also work well to start new planting beds ala lasagna gardening.


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## Bearsfan

Awesome!! I didn't just want to burn them. Thanks


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## am1too

Bearsfan said:


> Cardboard.... Just installed kitchen cabinets next door and have a lot of boxes leftover. Can I put them in the garden and let them over winter and till them in or should I put the compost pile over them and let them rot? There is no ink or plastic coating.


Just cover cardboard with any dirt and it won't exist come spring. Worms will eat it on short order.


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## am1too

My new 12 yard load of grinder tub offal has a temp of 160.


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## am1too

I've noticed that my saw dust seems to pack really tight. Is the only solution to mix it very well with lots of greens? Wouldn't that upset the C to N ratio?


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## Oswego

My opinion would be to err on the side of too much nitrogen than too little, unless time is not an issue.


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## Forerunner

I like to err on the carbon side, for odor control and speed-of-decomposition.....

Too much N will ferment, and that fermented goo will endure for a long, long time without stirring to re-introduce oxygen.

Too much carbon will still decompose, although very slowly if its too high a percentage. That, and carbon will be sucking nitrogen from wherever it can get it, all the while. Nitrogen is in the air, the rain, etc. while carbon is pretty much just in whatever we bring to the pile.


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## Oswego

I agree that having TOO much Nitrogen can cause issues. I did not mean to use extreme ratio N to C.
If the pile ends up with a little to much N then I just add some C on top until I can remix with additional C.

At my age I need faster piles, younger folks have more time


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## Forerunner

More nitrogen and the occasional pile turn will work. :thumb:

Those with time ?

More C and no pile turn for a year would be my recommendation.

Perfection is a pile of pure carbon on hand at all times, and the working piles close to hand so that any nitrogen surplus that comes in can be immediately balanced out of the permanent C pile.


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## Oswego

Dogs attacked my chickens last week and this morning one came back for more. All he got was lead poisoning.

So I added one dead dog to my compost pile early this morning. Used tractor bucket to make hole in pile, sawdust on top and then two buckets of compost on top of that. No need for any dog lovers to attack me because I love dogs myself but this dog deserved what he got. 

Pile received 9 dead chickens last week, this was not the intended source for nitrogen.


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## Forerunner

You'll get a second on that from me.......

I despise a killer, whatever it's breed.


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## DEKE01

Oswego, you made the best of a bad situation. Other than probably missing when I tried to shoot that dog, I would have done the same thing.


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## myheaven

Hey Tim question. All is well this side of the world well almost. Garden is doing good despite only 2 inches of rain since we were able to meet. Garden is showing stress despite massive mulch. I did water tonight so I'm not that mean. But my squashish plant dd 5( planted it,) Died all the rest of the plants are almost well. Will add mineral soon to the dry earth, as I have found some. Are roots too shallow with mulch? and squashish plant needs water more then tomato plants and cabbage. Just found it strange the plant is dead.


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## Forerunner

Check the center of the stem, close to and at ground level, for evidence of a borer.


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## myheaven

I will do that. Can you believe in all the years I have gardened, I have never dealt with a borer.


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## Oswego

I think I have mentioned that I live in town but have 5 acres with fish ponds on the edge of the City limits. I used a dozier a few years ago to scrape up weeds, brush and small trees so I could keep it mowed. I piled up the vegatation into two large piles and they have since turned to beautiful compost. I failed to keep it mowed and now have to rent a dozier again to do it again. First I'll pluck the young trees that have been growing in my piles so I can get to it with front end loader as needed. This time I'll also be cleaning up the property lines so I can do additional fencing and attempt to have some mammal mowers(goats) to help me keep the vegegation in control. 
If things go right in the next two years I'll sell my house in town and build small energy efficent home on my five acres. I plan to go ahead this fall and plant fruit trees out there to get them a head start. Thinking about angling the blade to cut out trenches and fill with compost as my fruit tree planting area. 
Any other suggestions for the fruit trees project? Or overall project?


----------



## DEKE01

Oswego, sorry I can't offer any helpful suggestions for your fruit trees, but I do have a question. What size dozer do you rent and where do you get it? I looked into renting one from my local CAT dealer to do my 4 miles of fence line, but they wanted a $1M insurance policy which I could not do.


----------



## myheaven

Oswego I would add drip lines at the root base and lots of mulch. Make sure you put protectors around the base so voles and rodents don't eat them in the winter. Put a good fence around them so deer dont eat them.


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## myheaven

My squashish plant the I have determined is a pumpkin had no hole but the base of the main vine was soft and mushy.


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## Oswego

DEKE01 said:


> Oswego, sorry I can't offer any helpful suggestions for your fruit trees, but I do have a question. What size dozer do you rent and where do you get it? I looked into renting one from my local CAT dealer to do my 4 miles of fence line, but they wanted a $1M insurance policy which I could not do.


United Rentals, I paid 76 dollars for their damage waiver which would cover any damage to the machine. I am paying for one day but will have it for the three day weekend. I'll just have to keep an eye on the hour meter because they charge extra if I use too many.

This one is a Case 650 with wide tracks for low ground pressure.


----------



## Oswego

myheaven said:


> Oswego I would add drip lines at the root base and lots of mulch. Make sure you put protectors around the base so voles and rodents don't eat them in the winter. Put a good fence around them so deer dont eat them.


I'll have to fence them from the goats anyway so I'll do extra for the deer.

I have an area that is close the the ponds where the dirt will always be moist two to three feet down and with the trench filled with compost it might give them enough water without me having to water. Or I could get small solar setup to water(trickle) from ponds.


----------



## myheaven

I wouldn't use the area that stays so wet. The roots will rot. Use a 55 gallon barrel and get a cheap low pressure drip line set up from Farm tek, northren tool, or harbor freight. Use a trash pum or use buckets to fill the barrels twice a week. If you get plenty of rain don't water.


----------



## Oswego

Leaving work today I saw the City truck go by that has the machine that grinds up limbs and throws the chips into an enclosed dump truck. It was full of ground up limbs and leaves so I followed it until it pulled into the City fuel station. He remembered me from the last time and told me my name and address. He said he was planning to go to the dump in the morning and would dump at my house instead.


----------



## DEKE01

Oswego said:


> Leaving work today I saw the City truck go by that has the machine that grinds up limbs and throws the chips into an enclosed dump truck. It was full of ground up limbs and leaves so I followed it until it pulled into the City fuel station. He remembered me from the last time and told me my name and address. He said he was planning to go to the dump in the morning and would dump at my house instead.


Where I live, the stupid city/county policy is that all the gov't run chipper trucks have to dump at the dump. Dumping on my farm would save them a 30 - 40 mile round trip, that is a lot of unproductive diesel and labor time and a lousy use of a good resource.


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome to the world of bureaucracy, where, as a good construction industry friend of mine once quipped, "common sense is out the window".


----------



## Oswego

Forerunner, I think I might have found a source similar to yours when you found the City/County dump area several years ago.

The guys brought me the load of finely ground chips/leaves this morning before I left for work. While talking to them I found out they take it to the dump but do not put it in the landfill. It has been piling up there in a seperate area for YEARS. He also said that if I go out there they will load it for me AT NO COST for the materal or the loading. I asked if there was any older stuff that had been sitting for several years that I could get and he said it was in a long line with the oldest stuff on the far end.

My next toy will be a dump trailer:sing::thumb:


----------



## Anonymooose

Deke, that's the same problem we have here too. The county dump then composts it and tries to SELL the stuff back to the public... The nerve!!  They do sell some, but not 100%. 

I AM glad they are composting it, but I don't know that it's being utilized to it's fullest. It likely gets used for growing grass along the highway, post construction. 

Personally, I think my garden is a much better place for it.

Nice score, Oswego!!


----------



## Forerunner

I love it when a plan comes together. :thumb:


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> I love it when a plan comes together. :thumb:


You been watching the A Team? Darn its been a long time.


----------



## Oswego

Oswego said:


> I think I have mentioned that I live in town but have 5 acres with fish ponds on the edge of the City limits. I used a dozier a few years ago to scrape up weeds, brush and small trees so I could keep it mowed. I piled up the vegatation into two large piles and they have since turned to beautiful compost. I failed to keep it mowed and now have to rent a dozier again to do it again. First I'll pluck the young trees that have been growing in my piles so I can get to it with front end loader as needed. This time I'll also be cleaning up the property lines so I can do additional fencing and attempt to have some mammal mowers(goats) to help me keep the vegegation in control.
> If things go right in the next two years I'll sell my house in town and build small energy efficent home on my five acres. I plan to go ahead this fall and plant fruit trees out there to get them a head start. Thinking about angling the blade to cut out trenches and fill with compost as my fruit tree planting area.
> Any other suggestions for the fruit trees project? Or overall project?


Today I was able to get all the young trees out of one of my three year old brush piles and push the black gold back into a large pile. It is at least 8 foot tall and twenty foot diameter. If the other pile ends up with even close to the same amount then I will have won the compost lottery.


----------



## am1too

Things must be cookin right along. That or we're busy gathering more for the pile.


----------



## littlejoe

Been following this thread for some time. Just never have read all of it. A search didn't reveal anything I was satisfied with. Can someone give me a guess as to what the proper nitrogen to carbon mix should be? I've got a few loads of old wheat straw and weeds, and a belly dump of manure to compost. Appreciate it and thanks!


----------



## Paquebot

littlejoe said:


> Been following this thread for some time. Just never have read all of it. A search didn't reveal anything I was satisfied with. Can someone give me a guess as to what the proper nitrogen to carbon mix should be? I've got a few loads of old wheat straw and weeds, and a belly dump of manure to compost. Appreciate it and thanks!


Best nitrogen to carbon ratio would be 1:20 to 1:30. Normally it's given in reverse order of that and referred to as C:N. Thus it would be C:N 20:1 to 30:1 ratio.

Martin


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Things must be cookin right along. That or we're busy gathering more for the pile.


Well, I did dump the tumbler summer batch about 10 days ago and had enough material accumulated to stuff it full again. Coincided with cleaning the pigeon lofts so there was ample high-nitrogen material to jack the temperature to 160Âº in a hurry. This is usually the fastest batch with so much green stuff from the gardens and probably dumped by mid-October.

What's also kept me busy, other than normal garden operations, has been hauling compost. County has offered compost free to any community gardens within the county. This is 3-year old material which has been screened to Â½" and looks almost exactly like black silt. I can get 1Â½ yards in my pickup and the shocks are almost bottomed out but it's only about 8 miles. Over past several weeks, made 15 trips. Told one gardener that one yard is sufficient per plot. After spreading more than twice that on my plots, he questioned why I was obviously applying much more than a yard. Told him that there may be a minimum but no maximum.

www.countyofdane.com/pwht/recycle/compost_sites.aspx

Martin


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Best nitrogen to carbon ratio would be 1:20 to 1:30. Normally it's given in reverse order of that and referred to as C:N. Thus it would be C:N 20:1 to 30:1 ratio.
> 
> Martin


Plus water if you want it to cook.


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Well, I did dump the tumbler summer batch about 10 days ago and had enough material accumulated to stuff it full again. Coincided with cleaning the pigeon lofts so there was ample high-nitrogen material to jack the temperature to 160Âº in a hurry. This is usually the fastest batch with so much green stuff from the gardens and probably dumped by mid-October.
> 
> What's also kept me busy, other than normal garden operations, has been hauling compost. County has offered compost free to any community gardens within the county. This is 3-year old material which has been screened to Â½" and looks almost exactly like black silt. I can get 1Â½ yards in my pickup and the shocks are almost bottomed out but it's only about 8 miles. Over past several weeks, made 15 trips. Told one gardener that one yard is sufficient per plot. After spreading more than twice that on my plots, he questioned why I was obviously applying much more than a yard. Told him that there may be a minimum but no maximum.
> 
> www.countyofdane.com/pwht/recycle/compost_sites.aspx
> 
> Martin


Sure wish mine was screened like that. I get bout 50% large material. Have bout 20 yards on hand. and will start hauling in 2 weeks.

Been piling the same uncomposted material up till then. I'll let it set a year and screen it. Its worth bout $150 a load after screening.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> Sure wish mine was screened like that. I get bout 50% large material. Have bout 20 yards on hand. and will start hauling in 2 weeks.
> 
> Been piling the same uncomposted material up till then. I'll let it set a year and screen it. Its worth bout $150 a load after screening.


Found a dime in one load. Told the operator about it. He said that he gets all of the nickels and quarters but dimes and pennies get through!

Martin


----------



## credee

Just kidding, we need millions more Compost Kings


----------



## DEKE01

I picked up 6 tons of manure today. I don't think that qualifies me as compost royalty but perhaps I might be granted a knighthood...the order of the turd. 

I have tons and tons of carbon stockpiled and needed the manure to get at least some of the piles started cooking.


----------



## Oswego

We had a Circus come to town for a couple of days this week. They left town at two am Friday. I was out next to where they had been early Friday and notice a twenty foot roll off dumpster with steam rising from it. Also had a strong manure/urine aroma drifting through the morning air. Seems the Circus had been required to put all elephant manure and bedding straw in a separate dumpster than the rest of their trash.

I called the # on side of roll off and asked if they wanted to save some money by dumping it closer than the landfill and no dump fees. 
One hour later it was dumped on my 5 acres. 

Do y'all realize how large an elephant turd is.


----------



## Forerunner

Now this is extreme composting. 

Congrats, Oswego.


----------



## am1too

The circus people are camped out for the winter in Hugo, OK. Just a might to far to get elephant turds.


----------



## Pony

Oswego said:


> Do y'all realize how large an elephant turd is.


:rotfl:

Well, color me *green* with envy! Great score! :goodjob:


----------



## gssmms

Buddy of mine used to go to the zoo in Springfield, MO and get a trailer load of what he termed "ZOO DO." 

Really liked it for his gardens!


----------



## Pony

gssmms said:


> Buddy of mine used to go to the zoo in Springfield, MO and get a trailer load of what he termed "ZOO DO."
> 
> Really liked it for his gardens!


Hmm.... Wonder if he's still gleaning the wild kingdom gold, or if someone else could go and ask for a trailer load (or two)....


----------



## DEKE01

Interesting article in Acres USA magazine last month. It pretty much pooped on the idea of municipal composting, mostly because they try to rush the process so much that too much of the good stuff gets vaporized. 

Pros are that it diverts material from relatively scarce landfill acreage so it might be worth it to the municipality for that, but as a soil amendment, the author was not impressed.


----------



## Paquebot

The main thing lost early in composting is nitrogen. That's why plowing under green matter may recover twice as much as when composted. Phosphorus and potassium are generally not lost into the atmosphere since their gasification temperatures are much higher than any pile can produce.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

........hence the practice of installing a carbon barrier to contain heat and nitrogen, whilst eliminating odors and the occasional uncooperative cow leg.


----------



## jtjf_1

Question for the composters out there what would the carbon to nitrogen ratio be for green wood? Say Siberian elm. I have a bunch chipped up and was wondering what to add if anything. Please note leaves were still attached to branches at chipping time.


----------



## Paquebot

jtjf_1 said:


> Question for the composters out there what would the carbon to nitrogen ratio be for green wood? Say Siberian elm. I have a bunch chipped up and was wondering what to add if anything. Please note leaves were still attached to branches at chipping time.


That one is impossible to determine. Although you can probably figure the green leaves to have at least 1% nitrogen, the wood is too variable. The thicker the branch is, the higher the carbon content. You'll get some heat if the pile is big enough but the wood bits will all be virtually intact when it cools. If you have access to cow or horse manure, add about 10% of that or 10% fresh grass clippings. Keep it working and moving and the wood will break down unless you've got some bigger dry pieces in it. Any fresh branches that I have is run twice through a mulching/bagging mower. Then it's ready for the tumbler and will almost vanish after a few months of daily turning.

Martin


----------



## jtjf_1

My last batch of compost from the wood chipper went from raw to dirt in about 2 months and i added weeds to that. Nice and hot but it was apple, apricot and peach branches and i turned it every week. This one i will try to mix in some grass clippings as I shred.


----------



## Paquebot

jtjf_1 said:


> My last batch of compost from the wood chipper went from raw to dirt in about 2 months and i added weeds to that. Nice and hot but it was apple, apricot and peach branches and i turned it every week. This one i will try to mix in some grass clippings as I shred.


The leaves of those trees are very high nitrogen even when dry. Their green twigs and branches are also high. Adding grass clippings would make the C:N ratio even better for rapid decomposition. I find that to be very true even with just the Compostumbler turned daily. The woody material isn't always chewed to desired oatmeal consistency but few big chunks remain when the batch is dumped.

Present batch was too high in carbon when started due to drought conditions resulting in no grass clippings available. Took off when the lofts were cleaned and had that good stuff plus some culled pigeons. Now has been warm for a month and presently cooking a couple of squirrels which were competing with me for the walnuts. Still could use one more good heat cycle before dumping it but there will be plenty of green material from the garden cleanup.

Martin


----------



## biggkidd

Wow 96 pages and now I feel as if I know you all. Lots of good info. Thanks. I remember looking up this thread after talking with a guy who runs a tree service. He dumps lots of wood chips about a mile from me. I asked if he was willing to drive the extra mile to dump at my place to save on his space. He pushes them up a couple times a year and burns them. What a waste! He did say I can haul all he has on his lot. So thats the good news. The not so good news is I can't find a close enough manure source. There's a hunt club next to me who would likely be happy to have a place to dump the harvest leftovers. So adding another iron to the fire. Now I'm going to have to fix my old F350 and haul chips. If only that old broken down stake body had a dump. Guess I'll make a drag like I saw here to pull the load out. 

This will work hand in hand with the rotational grazing pastures I am currently setting up.

Thanks for all of your input its been a great help. 

Forerunner quite inspiring I have about the same amount of land as you but its all timberland. Or was until recently. Now turning it into my dreams after living here off grid for the last five years. Also the book Ten acres is enough was a good read.

Larry
A World Away


----------



## Forerunner

Good to hear from you, Larry. )

Don't sweat that superb carbon source.
I'd rather have 10 times too much carbon on site than ten times too much nitrogen, any day. Carbon will wait for nitrogen.
Nitrogen, pretty much, don't wait fer nobody........


----------



## biggkidd

thanks forerunner,

Its amazing the changes you have made in your place. I thought I was crazy trying to compost an acre garden plot. But now know I'm just small time. How's the hydro power project coming? We also need more pictures here. My future garden space is still in trees at the moment. They are supposed to start cutting next month. Moving the garden from the top of the hill to the bottom, hope it helps. I plan to build my piles either right where I want the garden or more likely just up hill from it. Since I doubt it will be ready for use next spring.

Larry 
A World Away


----------



## DEKE01

Q. I have ~20 fairly large piles (50' ft diameter, 10' high) of slash, pine tops mostly that are about 1.5 years old. Most of the stuff in the piles are 3" diameter. It was too much to chip so it has just sat there. I want the stuff to compost down a bit faster. 

I have brought in about 25 tons of manure to put on these piles, added a few dead critters, communed with them every chance I get, and added some dirt as well. But that little bit of manure gets lost on these piles fast. With only about a ton of manure per pile and unchipped wood, nothing is happening as far as heat. 

Would you suggest I just give up on all but one pile and put all my N sources into one pile? Going forward I can get about 8 tons of manure / month to dump on these piles.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> Q. I have ~20 fairly large piles (50' ft diameter, 10' high) of slash, pine tops mostly that are about 1.5 years old. Most of the stuff in the piles are 3" diameter. It was too much to chip so it has just sat there. I want the stuff to compost down a bit faster.
> 
> I have brought in about 25 tons of manure to put on these piles, added a few dead critters, communed with them every chance I get, and added some dirt as well. But that little bit of manure gets lost on these piles fast. With only about a ton of manure per pile and unchipped wood, nothing is happening as far as heat.
> 
> Would you suggest I just give up on all but one pile and put all my N sources into one pile? Going forward I can get about 8 tons of manure / month to dump on these piles.


In your case I would say nothing helps like good ol plain dirt. Pine seems to rot fairly fast on the ground. Black jack and post oak do the same. Small stuff is gone in 2 years or less. I ran my brush hog over everything 2" and smaller. Couldn't find any of it in a year.

BTW least I forget my horse stall cleanings is already sprouting grass where I also covered it with an inch or so of sand. The part I didn't cover with sand is much greener than where I didn't spread it. And it sure has soaked up the water as hoped.


----------



## Forerunner

I was going to recommend consolidating the piles....or running them over with a track machine to condense. Dirt would work for speeding up decomp.
Continued additions of manure are good, even small additions.

Time is the great decomposer.

In other news.....the new pond is at working level and holding. There is an old man, getting older, who is still waiting for the spirit to move him to build the wheelhouse.


----------



## DEKE01

I chopped what I could with a brush hog, and chipped big piles that are in my garden and getting the majority of manure I haul in. The chip piles heated up and are doing fine. 

But I forgot to mention that there are hundreds of stumps in these slash piles, so there is a lot that I have no way to chip or chop. Some of the stumps are 10 - 14". Chipped stuff is gone in a year around here, but the logs aren't decaying fast enough for me. I've spent hours pushing up stacks and moving piles.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> I chopped what I could with a brush hog, and chipped big piles that are in my garden and getting the majority of manure I haul in. The chip piles heated up and are doing fine.
> 
> But I forgot to mention that there are hundreds of stumps in these slash piles, so there is a lot that I have no way to chip or chop. Some of the stumps are 10 - 14". Chipped stuff is gone in a year around here, but the logs aren't decaying fast enough for me. I've spent hours pushing up stacks and moving piles.


Yep big stuff takes way more time. I pile mine in a ravine. It just keeps going down. Nature does its thing as rain washes debris on and through it. Of course it helps when I put a load of grass clippings on it.


----------



## Paquebot

If you are moving those piles, that's going to keep breaking them down although it may not seem obvious at the onset. Even if buried in a pile, large pieces of material have the lower side being damper than the top. The elements which break it down work better on the damp side. Every time it is turned, you are flaking off partially-finished material and exposing fresh surfaces. 

Stumps would have been best put into a separate pile. Anything aboveground is meant to be recycled back into the soil to feed the roots whereas the wood in the underground portion is designed to resist the very things which will quickly consume other parts of the tree. That applies either to a pile or in the ground. 

Martin


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> If you are moving those piles, that's going to keep breaking them down although it may not seem obvious at the onset. Even if buried in a pile, large pieces of material have the lower side being damper than the top. The elements which break it down work better on the damp side. Every time it is turned, you are flaking off partially-finished material and exposing fresh surfaces.
> 
> Stumps would have been best put into a separate pile. Anything aboveground is meant to be recycled back into the soil to feed the roots whereas the wood in the underground portion is designed to resist the very things which will quickly consume other parts of the tree. That applies either to a pile or in the ground.
> 
> Martin


I wouldn't cover the stumps entirely. If exposed they move water up and out besides other things that will grow on them to help decay.


----------



## Paquebot

am1too said:


> I wouldn't cover the stumps entirely. If exposed they move water up and out besides other things that will grow on them to help decay.


Problem with that is depending upon passive decomposition which may take 20-30 years to break down. It also means that they must remain in place long enough to allow those "other things" to grow on them. I took down an oriental elm in 1996 with a base almost 4' wide. It was cut off just above soil surface level. Some of it is still there and it will be another 4 or 5 years before it can be tilled without involving large junks of wood.

Martin


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> Problem with that is depending upon passive decomposition which may take 20-30 years to break down. It also means that they must remain in place long enough to allow those "other things" to grow on them. I took down an oriental elm in 1996 with a base almost 4' wide. It was cut off just above soil surface level. Some of it is still there and it will be another 4 or 5 years before it can be tilled without involving large junks of wood.
> 
> Martin


Maybe its your location. My undug stumps are rotting in bout 5 years with no additional help from me. I just kick them right out. Maybe I get plenty termite help. It also might have something to do with the wood and soil composition.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> I was going to recommend consolidating the piles....or running them over with a track machine to condense. Dirt would work for speeding up decomp.
> Continued additions of manure are good, even small additions.
> 
> Time is the great decomposer.
> 
> In other news.....the new pond is at working level and holding. There is an old man, getting older, who is still waiting for the spirit to move him to build the wheelhouse.


When the place was logged, the piles were not tight piles, but were smashed with 15 - 18 ton machines. They were spread over several acres and I spent a lot of time resmashing and piling them into the shape they are in now. If I had more time and money for diesel, I would haul in manure everyday. 

As to your version of Lake Mead, you really need to look into micro hydro. That would be WAY cool and depending on the flow, could make you energy independent.


----------



## Forerunner

I don't know that I could generate the blast for micro.

I may have 16 feet of head, at peak level.

I'm going for torque, when the time comes......thinking about a 7-8 foot wheel.

Slow and steady, yuh know ?


----------



## Forerunner

If you lived closer, I'd let you borrow the 850...... to give those piles something to think about. :shrug:


----------



## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Maybe its your location. My undug stumps are rotting in bout 5 years with no additional help from me. I just kick them right out. Maybe I get plenty termite help. It also might have something to do with the wood and soil composition.


What is weird is my undug pine stumps are already getting soft after 1.5 years, especially if they are under 8" diameter. The big stumps in ground or on the pile that are 12 - 14" seem to be resisting all efforts at decomposition.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> If you lived closer, I'd let you borrow the 850...... to give those piles something to think about. :shrug:


I wish! They taunt my backhoe as it grinds to a halt, spinning tires in the sand.


----------



## Paquebot

DEKE01 said:


> What is weird is my undug pine stumps are already getting soft after 1.5 years, especially if they are under 8" diameter. The big stumps in ground or on the pile that are 12 - 14" seem to be resisting all efforts at decomposition.


Stop to think. The microherd can attack only from the outside since they need oxygen and nitrogen in order to work. They will eat up an 8" piece of log a lot faster than thicker and older wood. But chew up the biggest stump with a stump grinder and they nearly vanish within a year. It's all in the amount of surface area and moisture which is offered to them.

Martin


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> What is weird is my undug pine stumps are already getting soft after 1.5 years, especially if they are under 8" diameter. The big stumps in ground or on the pile that are 12 - 14" seem to be resisting all efforts at decomposition.


I've got black jack and it even get rotten while growing. The termites love it.

That is what happens to my in ground stumps. I suggest you burry your pile about half way and very loosely. Leaves and dirt. You want mold and mushrooms of various sorts. I don't know if they grow on pine or not.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> I wish! They taunt my backhoe as it grinds to a halt, spinning tires in the sand.


Fill em with antifreeze.


----------



## DEKE01

Paquebot said:


> Stop to think. The microherd can attack only from the outside since they need oxygen and nitrogen in order to work. They will eat up an 8" piece of log a lot faster than thicker and older wood. But chew up the biggest stump with a stump grinder and they nearly vanish within a year. It's all in the amount of surface area and moisture which is offered to them.
> 
> Martin


in my haste and lack of proofreading I left out a sentence. The 8" in ground stumps are rotting but not the ones of the same size in the pile. You're right, the dirt contact. 

I brought in 6 tons of manure tonight and what I guess to be 9 or 10 tons of dirt. I base that guess on the fact that the dumper wouldn't lift the bed but it will lift 8 tons. I had to drag all that dirt out with a tractor ubntil the load got light enough. Too much extra time and work for a couple of extra tons of dirt.


----------



## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Fill em with antifreeze.


the tires are already filled. I need tracks or more HP. To move the piles, I have to tear them apart with a root rake. Too much work so I'll keep piling manure and dirt on them till they rot down.


----------



## Forerunner

Have you tried crumbing the piles with your back end hoe bucket teeth ?

They do this with houses in the demolition business to greatly reduce mass to be hauled away. It would also be another opportunity to mix the manure and dirt in more thoroughly with the piles.
As those piles age, the brush and roots (as you know) are becoming more brittle, or punky....either way making it easier and easier to reduce the material with a little _iron_clad incentive.


----------



## DEKE01

FR, I used a root rake to re-pile and smash things and that did reduce the volume substantially. Just not enough to satisfy me after waiting all this time. Normally I can be quite patient with compost (though these piles don't really meet the def of compost), but I was expecting (hoping for) more reduction by now.


----------



## Paquebot

DEKE01 said:


> in my haste and lack of proofreading I left out a sentence. The 8" in ground stumps are rotting but not the ones of the same size in the pile. You're right, the dirt contact.


It's a combination of steady moisture in the soil which allows the microherd to work continuously and keep multiplying. In a pile, there may be periods when the area around the stumps dry out. When that happens, the population of the herd has to start over again.

Martin


----------



## Paquebot

DEKE01 said:


> FR, I used a root rake to re-pile and smash things and that did reduce the volume substantially. Just not enough to satisfy me after waiting all this time. Normally I can be quite patient with compost (though these piles don't really meet the def of compost), but I was expecting (hoping for) more reduction by now.


Now you know why farmers used to snake all of their big stumps into a big pile and let them burn for weeks. If there wasn't a ditch to bury them in, the farmer would grow old waiting for them to become useful for anything else.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, I don't know, Martin....... the last big clearing project I did around here, I think I aged all of an hour, maybe two....while pushing all those quite valuable stumps into three or four gulleys draining off the field and into the woods, where they all serve as the most fabulous wash-stop that can be had.....holding back dirt and water whilst slowly reducing to their organic and nutrient rich elements.

Everything on the farm has a purpose.

Some things even have more than one.


----------



## Paquebot

Yep, if one didn't have a ditch or gully to drag them into, they just took up space and couldn't even be used for firewood. Cousin figured that he could do that with a lot of stumps pushed into a gully and "aged" for a few years. Didn't get a half-hour out of his chain saw chain.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

You should have mentioned the folly of that to him before he started. 

I feel for flat land farmers.
There's just so little space for the imagination to roam.......


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Everything on the farm has a purpose.


Including my nosey neighbor who keeps coming over to see what I'm doing today?


----------



## Paquebot

For those who don't understand what Forerunner and I both know, I've made cuts in tree crotches which had been 30' above ground and sparks fly. No sound clue as to how small stones and gravel can get up there but it does. With the stumps which have been dragged, pushed, or rolled to the gullies, they're just embedded with lots of sand and stones all over besides what may be entangled from when the tree was growing. Their best place is right where they were, in the ditch. I wouldn't even try to go at them with a crosscut.

Martin


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> Including my nosey neighbor who keeps coming over to see what I'm doing today?


No farm/homestead would be complete without one of them. Mine decided to become a problem and was told not to come back.


----------



## Oswego

Started a new pile in the backyard Saturday. Built it by layering wood chips, cow manure, peanut hulls, water and some ammonia nitrate(to save time).
Must be warming up because tonight its a little chilly and I found my dog laying on top of the pile.


----------



## Forerunner

........and cats, and ducks, and chickens.......

Don't they all know that working for a living produces body heat ? :indif:


----------



## crabtree

Hi, I am new to this site, but not to composting.
Anyone compost Coffee Chaff?
Great pics!
Forerunner can you tell me what is a good/easiest grain to grow & harvest by hand.
I have a power line running though my 10 year old pine trees & thought that planting grain might work there.


----------



## Forerunner

Hello Crabtree. 

I have good homesteader friends who are taking it back to the land in residential Chicago, proper.
They even have three chickens :bouncy: and they use coffee chaff for bedding and compost filler. 

Grain by hand falls to corn, every time.

You can feed four-legged livestock the stalks at any time, whether fresh or silage.
Pick and eat all you want, fresh, if it's sweet corn, and let the rest of the crop dry down for awesome pancake and corn muffin flour.
Crush the still-green stalk to get the juice out and boil 'er down for cheater molasses.
Plant and pick by hand with a real return for the effort; store on the cob for trouble-free curing....use those cobs for tool handles, BTUs, backwoods clean-up, etc.

Yeah.

Corn for me, thanks.


----------



## DEKE01

crabtree said:


> Hi, I am new to this site, but not to composting.
> Anyone compost Coffee Chaff?
> Great pics!
> Forerunner can you tell me what is a good/easiest grain to grow & harvest by hand.
> I have a power line running though my 10 year old pine trees & thought that planting grain might work there.


I had not heard of coffee chaff prior to this. Had to look it up. Is this something you get from Starbucks or some sort of factory sized roasting operation?


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## DEKE01

FR - I had not heard of the corn molasses idea. Ever tried it yourself? 

I agree with your statements about corn, I'll never have the land and equipment to mass produce grain, so corn makes a lot of sense. But the thing I like about the straw producing grains is the straw for bedding. A few months in the pens to soak up smells and then a few months in the compost pile makes for good fertilizer. I suppose I should try chipping dry corn stalks to see how that works as bedding. 

Also, when I lived in Bath, IN (pop <70 if everyone was home from work) we used straw bales to insulate our cabin. Two bales thick and stacked to the roof, we could keep the snow off the walls and the wind from blowing thru. Of course I would hate to see what would have happened if the wood stove blew a hot ember into those bales.


----------



## Forerunner

I haven't tried the corn molasses thing, but I've chewed the stalks, green, and know enough about boiling down sweet sap (corn is much sweeter sap than maple......maple is 35-40 gallons sap to one of syrup.....sorghum is six to one, and I bet corn ain't far behind that) and the close relation between the corns and the canes to know that it would work.....

As for chipped/shredded dry corn stalks....you may fall out of love with all previous bedding materials after........

Who says you can't bale corn stalks ?
I have done that......works well enough in a tougher old John Deere 24T.


----------



## DEKE01

OK, you talked me into it. Next year, corn, then beans on the stalks, then stalks thru the chipper. 

I'm curious enough to want to try the corn molasses as well, but I'll have to figure out a way to make a crusher.


----------



## Forerunner

Have you seen the old school cane presses......steel roller on steel roller.....maybe one splined to grip the stalks better ?

I've actually got one, been in the extended family for.....hoo boy.....in it's individual components. 

Which is to say it's in a box, in little pieces, collecting dust in the shed.
Someday.....


----------



## DEKE01

I have seen those. Might be able to find one at auction in south Florida, assuming they used that in small scale sugar cane processing.


----------



## Paquebot

Peak of the sugar content in sweet corn juice is within 3 weeks after the ears are edible. At that point, there may be 10% sugar in the juice. It will never become crystal sugar but may be cooked down to a syrup similar to molasses or sorghum. Only problem is that there's not much available per plant unless pulped and cooked. The sweetness is there but just takes a lot of work to get it out. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

My ole Pa always used to tell me, when I was a kid........

"Son, the measure of your reward will remain roughly commensurate with your input energy expenditures."


----------



## Studhauler

Smart Dads make for smart kids.


----------



## Shoestringer

What are your favourite uses for wood ash? The stove is going now and will keep going until Spring. That is too much ash to balance pH around my place...


----------



## Forerunner

Set up for tanning buckskins and making soap. :thumb:

Then use the waste from those operations to feed your soil.

Otherwise, set up a barter system.

You got potash...... find the guy gots what you need, in exchange.

Meanwhile, dried and cool, the stuff stores real good in plastic or metal barrels.


----------



## Shoestringer

I was thinking about buckskin but the only hides I have coming up soon are from pigs.


----------



## Forerunner

Pig makes good leather.......


----------



## crabtree

FR, I was asking about grain, but the stake juice sounds good.
Do not have many Maples, so it is Honey,sugar beets, Sorghum & corn.
I am in lower zone 7b, upper zone 8a, so a few sugar canes will grow here in midlands of S.C.

DEKE01, yes you are right, chaff is a by product of roasted coffee.
My coffee chaff is wet & moldly before it is out of the staging zone to be hauled off.
So it can not be used for bedding, but in the dry form it should make great bedding.
I use coffee grinds that have not been brewed, as well as use coffee grounds, even some whole beads.
Whole roasted beans make good mulch for bell & banana peppers, as well as food for whatever is composting the bottom layer. I was picking a bushel every day off 20 small plants.


----------



## TxGypsy

I finally bought a tractor with a front end loader! :banana::banana:

My compost piles have always been impressive, but that was just what I could build by hand. Oh the possibilities are endless! This thread has been an inspiration!

Now my problem is....I need the tractor, truck and trailer at the cow lot all at the same time. It's about 3 miles around the county road for the easiest access. How do I get myself and all the equipment over there and back by myself? I could load the tractor on the trailer, but then after the trailer is full I would have to make a trip back for the tractor...and I'd need it at the compost pile site to unload the trailer with. I could load a 4 wheeler on the trailer, park the truck and trailer and then go back for the tractor. This being single thing is a pain in the backside!

Hoping to have glorious huge piles of compost to show off soon :happy:


----------



## DEKE01

TxMex - I have a similar prob. Next week I have to haul my backhoe on the flatbed 60 miles. Use the backhoe to load 15K lbs of telepoles on to the flatbed, leave the LBH, drive the poles home, drive back for a second load of poles, then drive back again to retrieve the LBH. Each trip costs about $60 in diesel, so $180 for 30 - 50 fence quality poles, anywhere from 8" to 16" in diameter. I'm hoping for more of the smaller poles because the big ones are overkill for fencing but I can use them for landscaping. 

I haven't been able to figure out a better plan. I can't load without the LBH and I can't haul poles and the LBH on the flatbed. The LBH is 17+K lbs so I am maxed out on trailer capacity.


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## Studhauler

Texmex, unloading by hand (using a shovel) isn't so bad, it is all down hill. Some people on here have made self-unloading trailers by using two chains and a bunch of 2x4. You buy a dump trailer, or rent one a couple times a year.


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## TxGypsy

A dump trailer! You little enabler you! 

Found a backpack leaf blower on sale today. I've wanted one of these for years. So now I have the front end loader for gathering manure and turning the pile. A backpack blower to blow leaves out of the woods and a bagging mower to shred them up....and.....and....my cousin said he would give me a couple of old half rotten round bales! I'm not sure any one human being should be this happy!

Howdy from another Patriot Guard Rider.


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## myheaven

Hey texmex. use an old trampoline top (from the dump) to easy unload the compost fodder. Hook a hook with cable to the bucket from the far end and pull it off. Easy 30 second unloading. Trampoline tops are very durable!


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## Forerunner

I pull two....sometimes three....dump trailers behind the tractor that I use to haul and load the material.

Trucks are way over-rated. :grin:


----------



## DEKE01

Feeding chickens compost.

To watch this video, you have to enter an eaddr, but you can do like me and just create a gmail account that is for nothing but site registrations and other sites I fear may be a source of spam. 

Geoff Lawton is a permaculture guru and there are additional vids you can watch about his permaculture work. He is trying to sell you something, so you might want to skip the end of the vid. 

The important part is the vid is about a man in Vermont who has a large commercial composting operation and uses chickens to provide starter nitrogen, free turning labor, and free eggs. Since the chix get no feed other than what they can scratch from the raw compost materials, he can afford to keep roosters for guarding purposes and flock reproduction. I think he said 350 birds work for him and help to supply 500 commercial farms with compost.

For those of you who enjoy man toys, he uses a trackhoe and some other heavy machinery, but nothing like custom compost turning machinery that I have seen advertized in farm mags. 

http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/59960-feed-chickens-without-grain?r=y


----------



## Forerunner

Good find.

I do thoroughly appreciate the symbiotic feeding and warming possibilities that compost offers the frugal homestead.....


----------



## Homesteader at Heart

I have a fenced-in dog run (the dog has been gone about a month) which I want to use to store leaves. The leaves will eventually end up as mulch or compost for my vegetable garden. Do you see any problems with parasites or other nasty critters from the dog manure, which the rain has by now dissolved into the ground?


----------



## Forerunner

I wouldn't have a problem, but if you wanted to be really safe, just build a hot compost pile on that site and then use it for storing leaves. You could do both, simultaneously, building a hot pile 3-4 feet deep, and then piling your leaves on top of that.


----------



## Homesteader at Heart

The run is about 9' x 30', so I am thinking of just putting leaves in there to keep them from blowing away. From there they would go in my smaller compost bin with maybe some cow or horse/mule manure to heat things up. Do you think that would take care of any potential problems?


----------



## Forerunner

I'd say you've got it covered. :thumb:

Time is on your side.
Excellent use of an abandoned dog run, btw.......


----------



## Homesteader at Heart

OK, thanks for the input. Hope all is well with you and your family.


----------



## Forerunner

Thanks. 





I hope so, too !


----------



## Paquebot

There's also another factor that comes in here as regarding parasites from pets. If your pets have any parasites which may also affect humans, you already also have them.

Martin


----------



## am1too

The first thing the ice melted off of was my compost piles. Merry Christmas!!!


----------



## Forerunner

Me, too. 

I've got four hot ones waiting for spring.


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## Studhauler

I have one cool one, something about daytime high temps at &#8722;10 for about a week


----------



## Forerunner

Your pile just ain't big enough, SH. :grouphug:



I just cut and shuffled a pile that had a lot of quirky spots, due to it's haphazard construction over autumn....... and, for drain and access logistics, it needed moved south 75 feet......
There were pockets of dry wood chips, overly saturated manure, fermenting corn fines from a large grain dryer operation, a whole bunch of dead critters, and a nice, hot core.

I trued up the area surrounding with the dozer, cuz I knew temps were going to below zero that night and I wanted a nice concrete finish to operate from over the next few weeks. Sure enough, next morning....-3 and the pile was steaming nicely. There are moist, black patches all over it that won't freeze, except on the immediate surface in places. :shrug:


----------



## Paquebot

First time in a long time without something steaming right now. Plans for another hot pile of shredded oak leaves were nixed when I decided to stash the leaves for direct use next spring. In all, probably equal to 100 bags on hand which otherwise would have been a decent hot pile. 

Tumbler went cold in a hurry as expected with minimum moisture added. It held out just long enough to fold in one deer head plus various other offal and remain warm for a few more days. Next 3 months will have only small daily additions but the accumulative NPK value is going to be a high one. Reserve for spring load has 3 more deer heads, dozen lower legs and feet, and other good sources of nitrogen and phosphorus. Composted 7 heads in a pile one time but never more than one at a time in the tumbler so results remain to be seen.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Martin,I don't recall specifics.....

Do you have some farm ground, or are you on a lot in town ?


----------



## Paquebot

Specifics: Live in town, 75x150 lot. Stripped sod off original 25x25 garden on 7-10-63. Since expanded to 25x50 enclosed plus 3x25 outside. Entire area up to a foot higher than in 1963 and every bit manufactured by me. Also beds of about 3x10, 6x50, 8x8, 6x25, plus spaces for containers due to the whole works having a huge black walnut right in the middle. That doesn't leave much space for grass so I don't have many clippings. Nitrogen sources are our pigeons and whatever available green material. That's home.

2011 and 2012 had me gardening in the country at www.wegrowgarlic.com with 6,000 square feet the first year and 10,000 the next. 2013 found me back with the community gardens with 8 plots @ 432 square feet or 3,456 square feet. From start to finish with the plots, I added 33 cubic yards of organic matter to those 8 plots which previously were the worse of the 140 total. The additions consisted of compost from both home and county, shredded leaves, horse manure, and sawdust. In keeping with no good deed going unpunished, I may only be allowed to garden in 4 of them in 2014. At least I will have the pleasure of knowing that the other 4 were left in a lot better condition than when I got them. 

Tomorrow will restart an annual project of soil amending. Christmas trees are now just a messy thing to get out of the house as soon as possible after the joy of Christmas is over. I've hauled home at least 25 every January for almost 10 years. At the first good break in the weather between accumulation and spring, the boughs are stripped off with a chain saw and passed several times through a bagging/mulching mower. Some becomes a basis for the spring tumbler batch but most will be reserved for mixing with soil for hilling potatoes. Lot of sweat but worth it and makes super soil later. The bare trunks will become bean tepee poles. 

Note on the above for everyone. Laws prohibit Christmas trees in landfills. Most municipalities are now set up with chippers and the results are often available to gardeners. Grab all you can get, especially if the chippers are the newer ones which make a fine product instead of wooden hockey pucks. The C:N ratio is such that you need to add nothing else to it to create a very hot cycle. So hot, in fact, that such piles have been known to ignite! You've got about 3 weeks to take advantage of it. Not the best time on the year in the northern areas but nothing wrong with stockpiling it for spring use. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Excellent. :thumb:



If I was "restricted" to town type acreage, I'd be doing the same.


----------



## Studhauler

I might have under exaggerated the temp of my pile. The center and top of the pile are still heating, but he sides are frozen in about 8 &#8722;10 inches. I am guessing I have about 10 pickup loads of stuff in the pile; it is hard to say because most of it was brought in by yard-carts from myself and my neighbor behind our lawnmowers. This spring when the snowbirds come back, I will be getting the sawdust from a one-man cabinet shop about a half mile down the road. I don't know why I did of his sawdust when I first started composting.:shrug:


----------



## Forerunner

Frozen 8-10 inches in isn't uncommon for us arctic, semi-arctic types, nor is it a detriment.
Any time you've got heat in a winter pile, you know you've definitely graduated Compost 101.

Soon as the spring thaw hits, that outside layer will be doing double time.


----------



## Studhauler

I might get more on top of it yet this winter.


----------



## Paquebot

If your pile is like a dome, throw an old tarp or plastic over the top where it is now venting. That will keep the heat in and only allow it to seep out through the sides. I often used deer hides for that. Hair side up looked better but a mess to deal with in the spring. With hair down, that's just more green.

Martin


----------



## am1too

Studhauler said:


> I have one cool one, something about daytime high temps at &#8722;10 for about a week


Mine's a little soggy at the moment. But fear not this is Oklahoma - 60 at 8am snow by noon and 50 by 5pm. We just look out the window if we want to know about the weather.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Your pile just ain't big enough, SH. :grouphug:
> 
> 
> 
> I just cut and shuffled a pile that had a lot of quirky spots, due to it's haphazard construction over autumn....... and, for drain and access logistics, it needed moved south 75 feet......
> There were pockets of dry wood chips, overly saturated manure, fermenting corn fines from a large grain dryer operation, a whole bunch of dead critters, and a nice, hot core.
> 
> I trued up the area surrounding with the dozer, cuz I knew temps were going to below zero that night and I wanted a nice concrete finish to operate from over the next few weeks. Sure enough, next morning....-3 and the pile was steaming nicely. There are moist, black patches all over it that won't freeze, except on the immediate surface in places. :shrug:


I should move and add lots of dry matter to mine. Its really wet.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Frozen 8-10 inches in isn't uncommon for us arctic, semi-arctic types, nor is it a detriment.
> Any time you've got heat in a winter pile, you know you've definitely graduated Compost 101.
> 
> Soon as the spring thaw hits, that outside layer will be doing double time.


Now ready for Compost 101.1 or is that 102?


----------



## Studhauler

I am on pile number 5.2 so I think I am ready for Compost 201 with Professor Forerunner, and I hope calling him professor isn't an insult.


----------



## Forerunner

Naw.

Just so none of the collegiate variety don't take offense. :heh:


The information is all here, I think.

The final exam is getting a 1500 pound steer to reduce to clean bones and stomach contents in three weeks. 

If you can do that, you've pretty much mastered the process. :grin:


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> Naw.
> 
> Just so none of the collegiate variety don't take offense. :heh:


:hysterical:


----------



## myheaven

Forerunner said:


> Naw.
> 
> Just so none of the collegiate variety don't take offense. :heh:
> 
> 
> The information is all here, I think.
> 
> The final exam is getting a 1500 pound steer to reduce to clean bones and stomach contents in three weeks.
> 
> If you can do that, you've pretty much mastered the process. :grin:


I did that I DID THAT! Wow I gradumawated! Yeah me. Well but mine was 3 full sized goats and a 500lbs calf. Do I still get a deploma? But the only things I found was the skull.


----------



## Forerunner

Three weeks ?

Just skull ?

You weren't looking very hard........... :indif:


The test still stands..... _one animal, 1500 pounds_....... three weeks in the pile......clean bones and stomach contents.


I'll be waiting for the reports to roll in.


----------



## Studhauler

I'll post an add on Craig's list for a dead cow.


----------



## Forerunner

*whispers*

In certain circles, they may be willing to recompense you some, to take it off their hands......


----------



## myheaven

I posted pictures! I'm sure there was a scapula in there but the pile was stomach contents and the dog found the skull. We didn't look too hard for the bones. We were just turning the pile. There was nothing but stomach contents. Boy did it smell. The dog thought it was the best cologne and kept rolling in it. Nasty brat!


----------



## Paquebot

A lot of this composting stuff is the same no matter what scale is used. Three dump boxes are no more or less valuable then what can fill a pickup box or a car's trunk. Today was visit to local Jung's Garden Center. Initial thought was to see how many unsold Christmas trees were available. Someone mentioned that there were again a lot of bundles of pine boughs and one pallet was already full and more than enough for another. Anything with twine fasteners went directly to my pickup. Still another pallet with wire ties and I'll be getting that, too. Already I figure to have the equal to about 15 Christmas trees. Double that in a few days and then start bringing home intact trees. For my needs, it's going to be like candy to children!

Martin


----------



## DEKE01

Paquebot said:


> A lot of this composting stuff is the same no matter what scale is used. Three dump boxes are no more or less valuable then what can fill a pickup box or a car's trunk. Today was visit to local Jung's Garden Center. Initial thought was to see how many unsold Christmas trees were available. Someone mentioned that there were again a lot of bundles of pine boughs and one pallet was already full and more than enough for another. Anything with twine fasteners went directly to my pickup. Still another pallet with wire ties and I'll be getting that, too. Already I figure to have the equal to about 15 Christmas trees. Double that in a few days and then start bringing home intact trees. For my needs, it's going to be like candy to children!
> 
> Martin


great catch, Martin. I used to work at a hardware store and took dozens of left over Xmas trees home and laid them along the fence rows to provide wild creature habitat. That was long before I had a chipper that would make them into mulch.


----------



## Poverty Knob

I found this forum over a year ago when doing a search on composting. I read it and followed the instructions, which resulted in ALOT of really great compost. So what to do with it? I built a hoophouse and grew alot of vegetables.
Thanks Forerunner, you have cleared the fog, driven away the wives tales and given me some entertaining reading. And since I know that you like pitchures, here is some of my garden this year.
:happy2: :buds:


----------



## Forerunner

Lord bless me........ another long lost Brother ! :sob:


Welcome to the wive's tales busters club ! :thumb:

Great pitchers, btw.......


My understanding is that your biggest obstacles in Kansas are lack of moisture, occasionally excessive heat, poor native soils and a deplorable lack of compost enthusiasts. 
What other measures have you taken in your horticultural efforts, aside from composting and an awesome hoophouse ?


----------



## curdy

Great looking hoop house!


----------



## Poverty Knob

Thanks FR. Your list of Kansas growing conditions is correct but incomplete. We also deal Extreme Wind and Hail. The wind has taught me alot about interior bracing of a plastic building. (Notice the bracing in the pics.) We lost our first Hoophouse on Nov. 10, 2011 due to sustained 70 mph winds and no interior bracing. 
With the help of some terrific friends and an understanding wife we re-configured, rebuilt and replanted! I will attach some pics of the first learning experience.
My latest en-devour is vermicomposting. Our worms around here didn't read the book that says "Build compost and the worms will come". If I can grow 16 ft. tall tomato plants with compost imagine what I can do with vermicompost! 
J.L.


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, yeah...... I had forgotten all about Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz. :smack:


No wonder the default crop is grassfed cattle. :indif:


Lots of compost....and still no native worms ? Now there's an oddity.

Must be an Illinois soil vs Kansas soil thing.


*Martin*, wherever you are, you old Codger......

Why ain't Poverty gettin' no volunteer worms to show up in his compost ?


----------



## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> Lots of compost....and still no native worms ? Now there's an oddity.
> 
> Must be an Illinois soil vs Kansas soil thing.
> 
> 
> *Martin*, wherever you are, you old Codger......
> 
> Why ain't Poverty gettin' no volunteer worms to show up in his compost ?


He's not getting any native worms since there are none there. Almost all worms in most of the US and Canada are European. There used to be a large species in the Pacific Northwest but is believed to be extinct. There also is/was some in the Southeast but tilling and competition from the European species have all but eliminated them. In the northwoods of MI, MN, and WI, soil duff accumulated at the rate of 1" per thousand years since the last ice age of 10,000 years ago. When nightcrawlers are introduced, they consume that in one year. I have only nightcrawlers here as they will not allow any others to exist in the same ground despite efforts to introduce them. When introduced to my garden in August 1963, there was not another nightcrawler in the city. Still only have them in limited areas where the silt over clay layers are deep enough for them. Where there is sand under the silt, there are no crawlers.

www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html

Martin


----------



## am1too

Poverty Knob said:


> I found this forum over a year ago when doing a search on composting. I read it and followed the instructions, which resulted in ALOT of really great compost. So what to do with it? I built a hoophouse and grew alot of vegetables.
> Thanks Forerunner, you have cleared the fog, driven away the wives tales and given me some entertaining reading. And since I know that you like pitchures, here is some of my garden this year.
> :happy2: :buds:


awesome!


----------



## am1too

Paquebot said:


> He's not getting any native worms since there are none there. Almost all worms in most of the US and Canada are European. There used to be a large species in the Pacific Northwest but is believed to be extinct. There also is/was some in the Southeast but tilling and competition from the European species have all but eliminated them. In the northwoods of MI, MN, and WI, soil duff accumulated at the rate of 1" per thousand years since the last ice age of 10,000 years ago. When nightcrawlers are introduced, they consume that in one year. I have only nightcrawlers here as they will not allow any others to exist in the same ground despite efforts to introduce them. When introduced to my garden in August 1963, there was not another nightcrawler in the city. Still only have them in limited areas where the silt over clay layers are deep enough for them. Where there is sand under the silt, there are no crawlers.
> 
> www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html
> 
> Martin


Hmmm! I have seen them in my woods, but haven't seen them in my compost yet. I did put down some cardboard and worms of the red wiggler variety ate it right up. They were very different from the big brown ones in my woods.


----------



## Paquebot

Unless there's been some recent discoveries, I don't think that there are any native worms in Oklahoma. Worms in woods can be one of 3 types of which only one would live in a compost pile. Night crawlers feed on the surface but live in deep vertical burrows. A second type feeds mainly in the top 6" of soil and will remain as a viable population only as long as there is sufficient organic matter for them to consume. Third type both eats and lives at or near the surface, do not make burrows, and can not survive freezing. Those are the red wigglers which will live in compost and die but leave behind many cocoons for the following season. The key words to search for are anecic, endogeic, and epigeic. Those are the 3 classes mentioned above. 

Martin


----------



## Poverty Knob

Lots of info. Thanks. 
When we bought this place (13 yrs ago) we found very few earthworms while planting trees and the garden. Clue #1 that our soil was out of balance. This place had been continually farmed to wheat for a long time, and the prevailing thought on fertilizer here is "Anhydrous Ammonia" it will make wheat grow. Never mind that it solidifies your soil! Nor was our soil very good to begin with (Red Clay).
I have spent several years stumbling around in the darkness trying one thing then another to increase the life of our soil and then it hit me. 
Better living through chemistry isn't the answer. 
Feed the soil what it needs to rebuild itself. Microbes! N-P-K are only 3 of the elements in healthy soil. Thus my diving headlong into compost and my newest fascination with the Red Wiggler, trying to build a better compost.
I realize that this post kind of rambled, but it gives you a little more info.
J.L.


----------



## Forerunner

Well, some mischievous European came traipsing by here some years ago, and dumped his whole wagon load of red wrigglers. 

Bless his heart.


----------



## Paquebot

Poverty Knob said:


> Lots of info. Thanks.
> When we bought this place (13 yrs ago) we found very few earthworms while planting trees and the garden. Clue #1 that our soil was out of balance. This place had been continually farmed to wheat for a long time, and the prevailing thought on fertilizer here is "Anhydrous Ammonia" it will make wheat grow. Never mind that it solidifies your soil! Nor was our soil very good to begin with (Red Clay).


Anhydrous ammonia is for corn, not wheat. Can't imagine how it can be applied to wheat since it would have to be knifed in just outside the root systems or it would immediately kill the plants. Most common nitrogen application for wheat would be ammonium nitrate. That's more than likely what was used.

Martin


----------



## Poverty Knob

Martin
Anhydrous is applied when wheat is drilled not as a side dress.
J.L.


----------



## Paquebot

Poverty Knob said:


> Martin
> Anhydrous is applied when wheat is drilled not as a side dress.
> J.L.


I've never seen a grain drill with an anhydrous ammonia tank mounted on it. It would be interesting to see such a thing which is obviously very local since there is no Internet data on it. It would need a plumbing nightmare of tubing as well as individual sets of injectors to place the anhydrous well below the seed depth. It's a liquid when under pressure but becomes a gas as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere. If applied at seed depth, it would vanish into the air. But if it's being applied as a dry product, it's not anhydrous ammonia. Closest dry form would be urea, 46-0-0. 

(Worked 11 years manufacturing fertilizer. Lungs are paying for it now.)

Martin


----------



## Poverty Knob

Martin here are 3 quick links about Anhydrous Ammonia application on wheat. Not looking for a fight here. 
http://ksre.k-state.edu/news/story/applying_anhydrous082212.aspx
http://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/handle/2097/13602
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1760&context=extensionhist


----------



## Forerunner

Martin, if I may.....

What state did you work in, manufacturing fertilizers ?


----------



## Allen W

Paquebot said:


> I've never seen a grain drill with an anhydrous ammonia tank mounted on it. It would be interesting to see such a thing which is obviously very local since there is no Internet data on it. It would need a plumbing nightmare of tubing as well as individual sets of injectors to place the anhydrous well below the seed depth. It's a liquid when under pressure but becomes a gas as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere. If applied at seed depth, it would vanish into the air. But if it's being applied as a dry product, it's not anhydrous ammonia. Closest dry form would be urea, 46-0-0.
> 
> (Worked 11 years manufacturing fertilizer. Lungs are paying for it now.)
> 
> Martin


Anhydrous ammonia is applied preplant to wheat. It's a practice that has fallen out of favor though as more acres are no tilled and more fertilizer is custom spread.


----------



## Paquebot

Allen W said:


> Anhydrous ammonia is applied preplant to wheat. It's a practice that has fallen out of favor though as more acres are no tilled and more fertilizer is custom spread.


That is correct and backed up with the links. It used to be common around here when anhydrous and application were cheap. Always done in the fall but often as much as 50% may be lost during the winter. There's a lot of grain grown in this area and nobody uses it anymore. 



Forerunner said:


> Martin, if I may.....
> 
> What state did you work in, manufacturing fertilizers ?


I worked for F. S. Royster Company, 7 of those years as manufacturing foreman. On my shift, I was the only one qualified for working on anhydrous cars and handling it. It was a 2-day training session in Chicago to qualify. Our plant was located in Madison, WI and was one of 27 nationwide at the time. Our dealer range was all of WI and roughly 75 miles into IL. Below that would have been supplied by the much larger Indianapolis plant. MI would have been supplied by that one and the Toledo plant. I was scheduled to be transferred to Indianapolis with eventual goal to become a plant manager. Didn't want to leave Wisconsin so I switched occupations and went into dairy equipment manufacturing. For those who remember fertilizer bags in those days, we had two sizes when I started, 80# and 100#. When we had to switch to 50#, some of the older workers would wait and take 2 at a time off the belt! 

Anhydrous was ugly even under the best conditions. It will not allow you to take a second breath and I had a number of times when that happened. Tank cars and lines are never empty since they are filled with vapor as the liquid is pumped out. That requires a bleeding system for the hoses from the tank to the station. That's done in water for safety purposes. One night I shut off the valves and opened the bleeder and went off to do something else. Came back and no more bubbling in the water barrel. Connection atop the car was a quick-coupler with two dogs. Flipped the first one and then the second. Hose blew off like a rocket and hung up with the vapor shooting right at my face. I was about 12' in the air and I jumped straight off that car. Didn't care where I was going to land but I was going to be alive when I hit the ground. My right hand got some liquid and blistered when the coupler popped. By the time it was in my face, it 100% vapor and just burned like the devil for a few days like frostbite. It was almost expected and thus we had a special salve on hand just for that. It was in the winter and thus only my hands and face were exposed. Those were pre-OSHA days and nothing in the fertilizer industry was safe at the time. 

Martin


----------



## Allen W

Paquebot

Glad you survived your experience, anhydrous is nasty stuff to handle. We haven't used any in a number of years and don't miss it. Most dealers here aren't even selling it any more.

Liquid fertilizer is commonly put on when drilling, that could be the tanks on the drills that was discussed. 

Let's get back to our regular scheduled program now.


----------



## Anonymooose

I pulled back some hay/straw in the cow lean to floor a few days back, and there were WORMS still there, just lethargically hanging out!!! Shocking, as we've had -25F nights several times now. So I guess you could say they were "just chillin'" .

Got worms?

:spinsmiley:


----------



## Paquebot

No earthworm can survive freezing. If there are still live worms, it's because they haven't frozen yet. Survival of the species relies on the number of cocoons which were produced and which will hatch when conditions are favorable in the spring. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

.......or if there's some clown running around mounding up preposterously gargantuan piles of somewhat balanced organic matter, thus giving the worms a layer of "just right" between the frozen outer crust and the hot, steamy deliciousness within.

:shrug:


I once dug into such a pile during a spell of particularly sub-zero weather, and this one worm perked up and looked straight at me..... opened his little mouth much wider than I would have expected, and yelled;








_*
PARRRTAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!














*_

:huh:









.


----------



## DEKE01

Since red wigglers don't live long enough to reach age 21, make sure your compost pile remains aerobic so that no alcohol is produced for their parties.


----------



## Forerunner

That particular pile may have been privy to some corn fines from the previous fall........

Next opportunity I have, I'll inquire about their regulatory protocol, as it may pertain to drinking age.

I'd be willing to bet, however, that they all refer to themselves as FreeWrigglers.





























:hysterical:















.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> I'd be willing to bet, however, that they all refer to themselves as FreeWrigglers.
> 
> .


I don't know whether to :grumble: or :spinsmiley: or ound: 

I'll go with the latter. 

The worms, or lack of, is an interesting question. My VA house has tons of them, happily chomping away on kitchen scraps and maple leaves. I've never seen them on the Florida farm. I had always assumed that the avg .5% OM was the limiting factor and that more compost would bring them out of hiding; perhaps something akin to Bruce Worm becoming Batworm just when you need them. Now you guys have me wondering if I may need to import some. 

I know of a nearby gent who tried to go into the worm farming biz but failed for reasons unknown to me. I'll inquire as to where he got his slimy livestock.


----------



## Paquebot

As mentioned before, there were no nightcrawlers in this city when I moved to this residence in July 1963. We had tons of them in the lawn and field around the fertilizer plant. In August of that year, heavy rain had the parking lot covered with crawlers. Working 4-12, picked almost 2" in a 5-gallon pail. When I got home, dumped them right in the middle of where I had stripped off sod a month before. They took! In the 50 years, they've gone 4 blocks via back lawns. They've only gone about 25-30 feet south from my garden and have yet to reach the 100' from where they started to the street curb. They need 5 or 6 feet of favorable soil to make their burrows. Much of this area is alluvial silt over clay and that over sand. The worms can live with the first two but not the sand. "Build it and they will come." requires a back hoe, not a tiller. 

Martin


----------



## Studhauler

HAPPY 100th FORERUNNER!!! :goodjob: :bouncy: :happy: :clap:


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## DEKE01

Paquebot said:


> Much of this area is alluvial silt over clay and that over sand. The worms can live with the first two but not the sand. "Build it and they will come." requires a back hoe, not a tiller.
> 
> Martin


OK, I've got sand with .5% OM except where I have done extensive amending. Two to five feet down is a layer of clayey sand as described by the soil test where I'm building. Maybe worms aren't here and won't come here unless I give them a good pile to work with and buy them a one way ticket on Eisenia Air. 

I have a backhoe, so I can mix significant amounts of material. But I still need lots more compost and other OM to keep a large worm population happy.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> OK, I've got sand with .5% OM except where I have done extensive amending. Two to five feet down is a layer of clayey sand as described by the soil test where I'm building. Maybe worms aren't here and won't come here unless I give them a good pile to work with and buy them a one way ticket on Eisenia Air.
> 
> I have a backhoe, so I can mix significant amounts of material. But I still need lots more compost and other OM to keep a large worm population happy.


I have a few worms here in a few scant inches of top soil on clay under a dense canopy of oak under storied with some sand plumb. Do they ever like those plumbs. Other places I have as much as 18 inches of sand over the clay. And of course I have slay right as the surface. Plenty sandstone to go round too. Eight to twelve yards at a time.


----------



## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> HAPPY 100th FORERUNNER!!! :goodjob: :bouncy: :happy: :clap:


I've been offline a couple days to show my power system some compassion during the sub-zero.

Ah, the peaceâ¦â¦ reading "Deerskins into Buckskins" next to the wood stove. 

*sigh*


Thanks for the Hallmarkâ¢, Stud_H.


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## Studhauler

You even "TM"ed it.


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## Forerunner

Oh, yes.......

HTÂ® is very strict about adhering to copyright protocol........ :huh:


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## Paquebot

For what it's worth, on Windows, â¢ trademark symbol is Alt+0153.

Martin


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## Forerunner

Hey, now....... that was one of my favorite cyber-secrets ! :smack:


----------



## Paquebot

&#8596;P (The number of this post in this thread.)
&#9660; (The number of viewers to this thread at the moment.)

Martin


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## DEKE01

FR - I need to know the definition of MASTERS you gave somewhere deep within this thread. With 100 pages, that is too many to reread just for the sake of finding your humor. The search feature doesn't help...or maybe I don't know how to use it properly. 

Can you remember?


----------



## Forerunner

Let's resume the master/slave discussion in the thread I started this a.m. in current events..."Who owns who ?"

Maybe even give the links a short....or long...perusal and maybe even find what would be a representation of my answer. :shrug:


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Let's resume the master/slave discussion in the thread I started this a.m. in current events..."Who owns who ?"
> 
> Maybe even give the links a short....or long...perusal and maybe even find what would be a representation of my answer. :shrug:


No, what I am asking about is in Extreme Composting, you made a very funny joke about a Master's degree as it pertains to composting. I said a PhD meant piled higher and deeper, and you responded with something far better for Masters.


----------



## dlskidmore

DEKE01 said:


> No, what I am asking about is in Extreme Composting, you made a very funny joke about a Master's degree as it pertains to composting. I said a PhD meant piled higher and deeper, and you responded with something far better for Masters.


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ho...342651-extreme-composting-90.html#post6654385


Forerunner said:


> ......and I suppose Masters is "mix and stack to encourage rotting, stupid" ?


----------



## Forerunner

Ohhhhhhh.

Yeah. 





That.


----------



## haley1

Poverty Knob said:


> I found this forum over a year ago when doing a search on composting. I read it and followed the instructions, which resulted in ALOT of really great compost. So what to do with it? I built a hoophouse and grew alot of vegetables.
> Thanks Forerunner, you have cleared the fog, driven away the wives tales and given me some entertaining reading. And since I know that you like pitchures, here is some of my garden this year.
> :happy2: :buds:


poverty knob
not to change subject but what varieties to toms grow that tall?
thanks


----------



## Forerunner

Poverty can give his answer when he gets here.....


.....my heirloom Brandywines and Mortgage Lifters grow that tall pretty easily.
I trellis up four-six feet tall, and am afraid of what might happen if I go any higher.


----------



## DEKE01

I saw a hoop house that UF had set up in north/central Florida. They did a test on indeterminate tomatoes and bell peppers. In both cases, they reached the roughly 12' ceiling, IIRC, still producing until the cold did them in in late Nov. The extension agent said they probably could have gotten another month out of them, but the students were tired of having to climb ladders to harvest and were ready to let them die.


----------



## calfisher

I still have some producing that are over 8' tall. Not sure of the variety.


----------



## Paquebot

There are 3 tomato varieties which I've grown that will easily go to 15' and look for more. They are Alicante, Hellfrucht, and Moneymaker. All 3 of those produce a lot of fruit close to the main vine. A friend had an 8' trellis and used to get Hellfrucht plants from me. They would go to the top, back down the other side to the ground, and start back up. Under good conditions and depending upon the strain, Yellow Pear will also do 15'.

Martin


----------



## haley1

thanks everyone
I will need to study up on how to tie up/ trellis them correctly


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Poverty can give his answer when he gets here.....
> 
> 
> .....my heirloom Brandywines and Mortgage Lifters grow that tall pretty easily.
> I trellis up four-six feet tall, and am afraid of what might happen if I go any higher.


I cage my maters which usually grow over the top of a 6 ft cage every year. So far variety hasn't mattered. My cages are 6 inch concrete reinforcement wire 6 ft wide.


----------



## Poverty Knob

I use the Florida Weave method to tie my maters up. I weave up to about 8 ft. (that is as high as I can reach without a ladder) then let them grow back down to the ground.
Hoophouses really seem to enhance the growth of some varieties of maters. 
The Black Krim and Brandywines turned into a complete jungle.


----------



## Homesteader

Another homesteader inspired - thanks FR! This is a 5x10 foot bed, about a year into filling now. Egg shells, banana peels, apple corings and coffee grounds mostly, plus now dried leaves. Any other kitchen waste and some weeds here and there. I don't think it's doing much as it's cold. But we're trying!


----------



## dlskidmore

Need volume to heat up. Also sounds like you need more nitrogen if you have a lot of leaves and weeds. Have any manure sources nearby?


----------



## Homesteader

dls-we have chickens! Goats two but the labor required to separate the goat poo-ies from the sand they fall on is not worth it. Chickens though, no problem there.

N from greens then? Of course it's winter - I'm thinking come Spring we may be able to heat it up a bit......


----------



## Oswego

My neighbor put up a light on a pole that comes on at night on our property line. Its just over the fence from my compost pile area so now I can visit all my little microbe friends at night without using a flashlight. Don't have to wait until the next day to carry them any fresh rejects from the kitchen.


----------



## Forerunner

Ya'll are makin' me tear up, here........ :sob:







Compost-inspired homesteaders and composters with night lights just get me right...*thumps chest with emotion*


----------



## Pony

Oswego said:


> My neighbor put up a light on a pole that comes on at night on our property line. Its just over the fence from my compost pile area so now I can visit all my little microbe friends at night without using a flashlight. Don't have to wait until the next day to carry them any fresh rejects from the kitchen.


Love your positive attitude! I'd be all cranky b/c I hate those lights, but you are pleased to be able to feed your micro-herd at all hours!

Homesteader, another source of nitrogen is urine. Any species will do.


----------



## Forerunner

Absolutely, Pony. 


It's all about the ritual Commune.........


----------



## Studhauler

I did my ritual commune last weekend at &#8722;25f.


----------



## TxGypsy

I am currently unloading my 2nd rounded 18 ft utility trailer full of horse manure and a bit of old round bale feeding area clean up. When I get tired of shoveling I run the mulching bagging mower over leaves and in the areas I plan to till up for blackberries and throw it on the pile. 

My new tractor with front end loader is priceless for loading, but fairly useless for unloading. When I find that money tree I'm going to buy a dump trailer!

I'm currently without indoor plumbing, so I toss all used water on the pile to get it some moisture. It's actually quite convenient. I have a bucket for used water and I throw anything compostable in it, including paper. The paper gets well soaked and pretty much comes apart.


----------



## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> I did my ritual commune last weekend at &#8722;25f.


I hope you first poked a hole in the frozen crust so the microbes inside could enjoy the occasion. :indif:


----------



## Forerunner

TxMex said:


> I'm currently without indoor plumbing, so I toss all used water on the pile to get it some moisture. It's actually quite convenient. I have a bucket for used water and I throw anything compostable in it, including paper. The paper gets well soaked and pretty much comes apart.


The infamous Ernie and I have discussed this, at length, he being situated in drought-infested Texas now, and all. 

Sawdust toilet and a means to convey all household waste water to "the pile" 
is a most excellent way to beat the dry climate, as pertains to making good compost.


----------



## TxGypsy

Forerunner said:


> The infamous Ernie and I have discussed this, at length, he being situated in drought-infested Texas now, and all.
> 
> Sawdust toilet and a means to convey all household waste water to "the pile"
> is a most excellent way to beat the dry climate, as pertains to making good compost.


That is what I am doing. That would fall under the category of 'used' water  

I'm considering putting the solids in as well. I'm a vegetarian and do a parasite cleanse(get dewormed..lol) a couple of times a year, so realistically it should be no more 'dangerous' than animal manure.


----------



## Pony

TxMex said:


> That is what I am doing. That would fall under the category of 'used' water
> 
> I'm considering putting the solids in as well. I'm a vegetarian and do a parasite cleanse(get dewormed..lol) a couple of times a year, so realistically it should be no more 'dangerous' than animal manure.


I would be concerned that, depending on what dewormer you use, the microherd might be adversely affected.

What kills a parasite often kills a beneficial as well.

We composted humanure for a few years, and it was just fine. We followed Jenkins' suggestion to compost for 2 years, but manure is manure is manure. I'm not concerned about using horse or goats or dogs or cats, so why would I worry about human?

(btw, why would you worm unless you have a heavy parasite load? Probably a question for another thread...)


----------



## Forerunner

I trust my microbes to annihilate anything.

Joseph J. made the exception of bleach....chlorine.....and said that even bleach wouldn't be able to stand up to the microbe hoards forever. 

Viva la Microbes !!! :strongbad:


----------



## TxGypsy

Pony said:


> (btw, why would you worm unless you have a heavy parasite load? Probably a question for another thread...)


The natural product I use has several cleanses in 1. It just happens to also remove parasites. I don't really think that I have many parasites, but I don't think it hurts to treat for it either. This is a natural product and I doubt that it would adversely affect microbes. However, I may not add the compost bucket to the pile during the week I take the cleanse. Glad you mentioned it.


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, right.....deprive the microbes of what may be a real treat to them in the trace mineral department, just to sooth an overly sensitive conscience.

:facepalm:


----------



## dlskidmore

The phrase is out of fashion but "the solution to pollution is dilution". Our environment doesn't have enough diluent for all the pollution we can create, but in small scales this is still valid. Put a small amount of medicated poo in a large compost pile, and I bet in the long run the microbes win and the medication breaks down.

Cow poo is even an effective filter for heavy metal waste running out of old mines. The microbes help detoxify it.


----------



## Homesteader

Would just communing with our cold pile heat it up? Or would it need green stuff too?

I told DH yesterday that I had it on high authority that if he wanted to pee on the compost, this was a good thing. He was skeptical, asking how do you know this? I said, well it's on HT's composting forum! 

It wasn't the enthusiastic response I was expecting. He communes all over the place out here anyway, the pine trees, over behind the storage thing, I thought he'd be thrilled! We'll see if he does........

Oh, and to get away from the yellow stuff and back to the green stuff, we live in the desert, it is HOT here and dry which makes composting a bit more challenging. Having lots of green matter is also quite challenging. However, that said, we are now beginning to create fodder and "light bulb" moment - we could very cheaply add fodder (7-8 day old wheat, barley or maybe rye "sprouts", green actually, think wheatgrass) to the piles for green matter!

The fodder is being grown inside, all manual watering, we can create 2 shoebox size tubs per day.


----------



## dlskidmore

What is the point in growing plants specifically to compost them? Compost is primarily a waste recovery system. It does produce good soil, but I'd think you have a very lossy operation there. Feed the fodder to animals. 50% comes out their back end more suitable for composing than before, already full of microbes, with much of the cellulose broken down.

Don't get hung up on the brown/green thing. Manure is brown, but high in nitrogen.


----------



## Paquebot

Homesteader said:


> Would just communing with our cold pile heat it up? Or would it need green stuff too?


It will do so but not immediately. The nitrogen in urine is NH3 or ammonia. As such, it is toxic to just about any live organism. That includes the bacteria which causes decomposition of organic matter. (People who have dogs know what it does to grass.) It must be converted to NH4 or ammonium before anything can use it. Best advice would be to use it in moderation but there is no defined formula as to what "in moderation" amounts to.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

*whispers*

IOW.......just pee on the pile an' forget about it, already. :heh:


----------



## am1too

Homesteader said:


> Would just communing with our cold pile heat it up? Or would it need green stuff too?
> 
> I told DH yesterday that I had it on high authority that if he wanted to pee on the compost, this was a good thing. He was skeptical, asking how do you know this? I said, well it's on HT's composting forum!
> 
> It wasn't the enthusiastic response I was expecting. He communes all over the place out here anyway, the pine trees, over behind the storage thing, I thought he'd be thrilled! We'll see if he does........
> 
> Oh, and to get away from the yellow stuff and back to the green stuff, we live in the desert, it is HOT here and dry which makes composting a bit more challenging. Having lots of green matter is also quite challenging. However, that said, we are now beginning to create fodder and "light bulb" moment - we could very cheaply add fodder (7-8 day old wheat, barley or maybe rye "sprouts", green actually, think wheatgrass) to the piles for green matter!
> 
> The fodder is being grown inside, all manual watering, we can create 2 shoebox size tubs per day.


Maybe he'd get excited if you did the communing.


----------



## Homesteader

am1too - that is soooo disturbing........hee hee.......:grin:

As to the growing fodder to add to compost, well heck people, what is the difference between doing that and planting a cover crop?

Add manure or other soil supplement, plant wheat or barley or buckwheat, till it into the soil. All I'm doing is growing it in a tub. We don't have fields here, we only have 2.5 acres, and I'd love to kickstart the compost pile and I see that some green matter will help. I can have that green matter in 7 days for 17.5 cents per tub. Don't need a lot of it, just enough to kick start it.

We'll be adding straw/manure mix from the chickens once it warms up a bit weather wise.

Hey if it doesn't help, so be it! We're talking small pile here.........


----------



## am1too

Homesteader said:


> am1too - that is soooo disturbing........hee hee.......:grin:
> 
> As to the growing fodder to add to compost, well heck people, what is the difference between doing that and planting a cover crop?
> 
> Add manure or other soil supplement, plant wheat or barley or buckwheat, till it into the soil. All I'm doing is growing it in a tub. We don't have fields here, we only have 2.5 acres, and I'd love to kickstart the compost pile and I see that some green matter will help. I can have that green matter in 7 days for 17.5 cents per tub. Don't need a lot of it, just enough to kick start it.
> 
> We'll be adding straw/manure mix from the chickens once it warms up a bit weather wise.
> 
> Hey if it doesn't help, so be it! We're talking small pile here.........


Summer is coming. I'll be collecting grass by the bag full from the curb. Unfortunately one must import material especially if any thing is exported. The condition of the soil is pretty poor.


----------



## dlskidmore

Homesteader said:


> As to the growing fodder to add to compost, well heck people, what is the difference between doing that and planting a cover crop?


Energy input. Biomass output. Field planting in an area that does not require irrigation is very efficient. Inside you need to add more labor, and if going beyond sprout stage you need lights. If you don't go beyond sprout stage, you net the same nutrients you started with. A good deal of the mass you end up with is water, you'd do as well buying the seed ground or crushed and adding that directly to the pile without processing. Sprouts don't have nutrition in them besides what is in the seed, they just have some aging on them that makes make digestion easier.

Living in the desert you don't get a lot of options for generating biomass. I'd suggest more livestock and outside feed. Poo is the best soil amendment, and composted poo is inoffensive. Poo plus dirty bedding is a pretty good compost mix all by itself. Chickens and pigs will turn fine wood chip bedding into the soil for you, negating the need for the pile step. Move the pen whenever you think they have amended one spot enough and plant something right away. Save pile labor for recovered materials that need the heat to be safe.

Have you seen the TED talk on reversing desertification? Difficult to do his way on a small parcel, but still worth watching and learning.


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> I trust my microbes to annihilate anything.
> 
> Joseph J. made the exception of bleach....chlorine.....and said that even bleach wouldn't be able to stand up to the microbe hoards forever.





dlskidmore said:


> The phrase is out of fashion but "the solution to pollution is dilution".


I compost the dirty, oily, floor dry from my shop. Maybe a 5 gallon bucket or two into a compost pile of about 10 &#8722; 20 pickup loads. It disappears just fine.


----------



## dlskidmore

Bleach evaporates. The microbes only need to wait...


----------



## Allen W

Studhauler said:


> I compost the dirty, oily, floor dry from my shop. Maybe a 5 gallon bucket or two into a compost pile of about 10 &#8722; 20 pickup loads. It disappears just fine.


A guy my little brother worked for had oil eating microbes in barrels of crude oil. When they needed some for an oil field clean up job they stirred in some miracle grow to rev them up for a high count.


----------



## Forerunner

Homesteader said:


> As to the growing fodder to add to compost, well heck people, what is the difference between doing that and planting a cover crop?
> Don't need a lot of it, just enough to kick start it.


If you have access to Stinging Nettleâ¦..that stuff is supposed to have properties extraordinarily positive for the compost pileâ¦..even beyond the physicalâ¦â¦


----------



## myheaven

Hey Tim have you ever used a lawn and leaf chipper for bones? I will have several bones to bust up this summer. 
Also I know you all will find this normal. My4 smallest kids often use the potty chair to pee in. They produce about a gallon of fantastic liquid fertilizer a day. Would that be too much for my now "small" plies?


----------



## Forerunner

I use a big feed mill to bust up bones.
I lawn grade implement would die a quick death under that burden.

I wouldn't be afraid to put a gallon of pee per day on a pile the sir of, say, four pickup loads. :shrug:


----------



## myheaven

Ok I'll fore go my leaf shredder. Gotta find someone with a large hammer mill. So far I just have buried them around my fruit trees. I so desperately would love all my own bone meal. We will be having several dump truck loads of mulch coming in. I hate to wait that long to harvest such wonderful assets that keep being tossed away.


----------



## dlskidmore

dlskidmore said:


> Have you seen the TED talk on reversing desertification? Difficult to do his way on a small parcel, but still worth watching and learning.


I didn't give the link before: http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savo...rld_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html


----------



## Studhauler

WOW :shocked: 400% Now all they have to do is convince BLM.


----------



## am1too

dlskidmore said:


> I didn't give the link before: http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savo...rld_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html


Interesting. Unfortunately I'm not big enough to be of service. But I'm doing my part on my small plot.


----------



## dlskidmore

I think we can study the principles and apply them differently on a small scale. They are using the animals to sheet compost and mulch. In such large areas as he is discussing it is impractical to import such material, but on a small scale we can accelerate the change by bringing in outside animal feed and compost materials.


----------



## dlskidmore

am1too said:


> Interesting. Unfortunately I'm not big enough to be of service. But I'm doing my part on my small plot.


Note the part where he said you could change the micro climate for the worse by clearing one square meter of ground cover. What if you did the reverse to a half acre?


----------



## TxGypsy

Has anyone come up with a good way to shred hay? I have a troybilt chipper shredder, a brush hog and several lawnmowers. I have access to round bales. I'm trying to figure out how to get enough carbon material mixed in to get my mound of manure to heat. I think if I can get it to the heating stage that I can then keep up with adding manure and carbon material to keep it going. It's just the initial pile that I'm struggling to get enough material added to.


----------



## dlskidmore

Just unroll and alternate carbon and nitrogen layers?


----------



## TxGypsy

dlskidmore said:


> Just unroll and alternate carbon and nitrogen layers?


It sure would make it easier to turn if the hay was chopped up somehow first.


----------



## Paquebot

TxMex said:


> Has anyone come up with a good way to shred hay? I have a troybilt chipper shredder, a brush hog and several lawnmowers. I have access to round bales. I'm trying to figure out how to get enough carbon material mixed in to get my mound of manure to heat. I think if I can get it to the heating stage that I can then keep up with adding manure and carbon material to keep it going. It's just the initial pile that I'm struggling to get enough material added to.


If it were conventional bales, the chipper-shredder would work great as you could feed single biscuits at a time and blow it right onto the pile. Round bales either have to be unrolled or cut down with a silage knife. Unrolling one and running over it the full length with the brush hog several times would reduce it down considerably but then there's the problem of collecting all of the bits and taking them to the pile. I use a bagging mower to chew up regular bales of straw but I can't imagine the amount of time it would take to do it with a large round bale. I would probably attempt it with my Merry Mack chipper-shredded but it would be a major pain unless the bale could first be cut into pieces which could be easily handled. That leaves the brush hog as the best bet despite the logistics of having to get the material to the pile.

Martin


----------



## am1too

TxMex said:


> Has anyone come up with a good way to shred hay? I have a troybilt chipper shredder, a brush hog and several lawnmowers. I have access to round bales. I'm trying to figure out how to get enough carbon material mixed in to get my mound of manure to heat. I think if I can get it to the heating stage that I can then keep up with adding manure and carbon material to keep it going. It's just the initial pile that I'm struggling to get enough material added to.


Personally I wouldn't bother shredding it. I would fluff it up when putting on the pile. IOW no whole bales or compacted flakes/mats.


----------



## am1too

dlskidmore said:


> Note the part where he said you could change the micro climate for the worse by clearing one square meter of ground cover. What if you did the reverse to a half acre?


Working on 10. Have a neighbor who complained about flies a few times. I never noticed them. Maybe he needed a bath or didn't wipe very well. Anyway he doesn't come over any more upon my request.

Oh yeah his garden died before the end of spring while mine thrived all summer.


----------



## DEKE01

TxMex said:


> It sure would make it easier to turn if the hay was chopped up somehow first.


Turning it serves only two purposes that I can think of, to make it decompose faster and to move material to the interior so that everything gets caught up in a heat cycle. I don't turn my piles except the incidental turning from re-piling when things have started to get messy or I need to move a pile. My piles are often 8 - 10 ft high, so if I scoop a loader full of finished product from the bottom, I does tend to scatter the pile. 

If you do the layering method of hay and manure, in 6 - 12 months you will probably have some good stuff, even without turning.


----------



## palm farmer

I just started my big project, fenced a 60 x 80 area, added 18 to 24 inches of wood chips that the tree butcher guys bring to the nursery, topped all that off with 7 pigs, will let them run on that for a four or 5 months, I can add more or take out as needed and will incorporate that into the tree farm. a little corn or grain scattered around and the pigs can do the flipping and turning


----------



## DEKE01

palm farmer said:


> I just started my big project, fenced a 60 x 80 area, added 18 to 24 inches of wood chips that the tree butcher guys bring to the nursery, topped all that off with 7 pigs, will let them run on that for a four or 5 months, I can add more or take out as needed and will incorporate that into the tree farm. a little corn or grain scattered around and the pigs can do the flipping and turning


I think that is a great idea. Please report back as to the smell situation in a month or two. I'm betting you'll have almost no offensive odors and some fantastic compost in a year.


----------



## palm farmer

while I was getting the big pen set up I housed them in a 8 x 24.... I also has been used in the same manner except with broilers, the smell was there a little but nowhere near the stank of a 8 x 24 on concrete....I am trying to figure out a chicken coop for the layers where they can roam in the pen and the up the ramp into roost/laying boxes, I think they will help keep down flys as well as cutting feed bill down some


----------



## DEKE01

Palm - that's another great idea. I've seen a study that showed chix can offset 30% of their feed bill if they are kept on deep, heavily mulched bedding. That was just from the chix own compost starter applied to the bedding. With some pig applied compost activator, you'll do even better with the free cycled feed. 

You might want to give the pen a 6 month rest after the pigs come off before you apply that compost to your garden. I don't know if it might be too N-rich and will burn plants if it is too fresh.


----------



## palm farmer

our other idea is a pig tractor, this will come into play when we wean the little ones, they will go into a hog panel and galvanized pipe version of a chicken tractor and scoot it up and down between the rows of trees tilling and fertilizing as they go


----------



## Paquebot

Pig manue is the lowest of all farm manures for nitrogen and contains far less than half or a quarter of what chicken manure would. Unless it were several inches deep of very fresh manure, neither nitrogen nor salts would be a factor.

Martin


----------



## dlskidmore

DEKE01 said:


> You might want to give the pen a 6 month rest after the pigs come off before you apply that compost to your garden. I don't know if it might be too N-rich and will burn plants if it is too fresh.


If there is enough wood chips in there for the amount of manure it should be fine. The wood chips should absorb nitrogen and release it slowly over time.


----------



## TxGypsy

DEKE01 said:


> Turning it serves only two purposes that I can think of, to make it decompose faster and to move material to the interior so that everything gets caught up in a heat cycle. I don't turn my piles except the incidental turning from re-piling when things have started to get messy or I need to move a pile. My piles are often 8 - 10 ft high, so if I scoop a loader full of finished product from the bottom, I does tend to scatter the pile.
> 
> If you do the layering method of hay and manure, in 6 - 12 months you will probably have some good stuff, even without turning.


Next year I will be willing to have a slow pile. I'm working on a great big brand new garden and I need all the compost I can get my hands on.


----------



## Paquebot

TxMex said:


> Next year I will be willing to have a slow pile. I'm working on a great big brand new garden and I need all the compost I can get my hands on.


The material produced by your slow or passive pile will be richer than if it were produced by the same material in a much larger hot pile. Heat requires energy in some form of fuel. Fuel is expended to produce heat. In the case of composting, that fuel source is nitrogen. The main advantage to heat is that the pile or tumbler becomes a slow-cooker and breaks everything else down faster. For the best recovery of all nutrients, trench composting is the only form capable of returning every bit of nutrients back to the soil. 

Martin


----------



## TxGypsy

Paquebot said:


> The material produced by your slow or passive pile will be richer than if it were produced by the same material in a much larger hot pile. Heat requires energy in some form of fuel. Fuel is expended to produce heat. In the case of composting, that fuel source is nitrogen. The main advantage to heat is that the pile or tumbler becomes a slow-cooker and breaks everything else down faster. For the best recovery of all nutrients, trench composting is the only form capable of returning every bit of nutrients back to the soil.
> 
> Martin


I feel like a cartoon character that just had a lightbulb turn on over my head! Trench composting....never heard of it before. Due to the magic of google, I now know what trench composting is. This may be perfect.

How about if I use a plow to hill up the rows and put my compost in the ditch that is formed. Then rather than covering it up with dirt, I lay down a thick layer of mulch. Wouldn't the plant roots grow towards the compost between the rows? The thick mulch layer would keep down weeds, would allow air to get to the compost and would keep my feet up above the manure. What do you think?


----------



## Paquebot

Trench composting is most efficient when covered with soil. Mulch would be porous and allow a certain amount of nitrogen to be lost. However, mulch and then dirt would be fine as would dirt and mulch. That applies to retaining as many nutrients with the minimum of effort.

In order to be useful to plants, the material would have be be deep enough so as to be within the depth where the feeder roots normally grow. Some may be within a few inches of the surface and others don't spread out until 6" deep. But that should not be a concern in trench composting. That is natural and thus passive. In Nature, anything which begins breaking down this year is doing it for next year. That's how it works when in the soil. You bury it this year to use next year. 

Martin


----------



## dlskidmore

Heat also useful in killing seeds and pathogens. I'm not too worried about it though. My compost is a recycler, there are plenty of weed seeds already in the garden, and I'm not taking in any hazardous waste. I just dump it all in a pile, leave it a year, and then spread it in whatever state it is in.


----------



## DEKE01

Paquebot said:


> Organic matter does not need to heat in order to decompose. In fact, heating is not natural. No blade of grass or tree leaf requires heat to release its nutrients and compost piles do not form naturally. For gardeners, composting is merely a means of speeding up a process which may take several years and doing it in days. You don't need 100 square feet when the daily contribution can be held in the palm of your hand. One also doesn't need an 18-wheel semi to deliver a dozen eggs. Big pile or small tumbler, semi or bicycle, end results are identical.
> 
> Martin


Yes, yes, agreed. Are you going to pay me $144 for a 5 gallon compost bucket or not?


----------



## DEKE01

dlskidmore said:


> Heat also useful in killing seeds and pathogens. I'm not too worried about it though. My compost is a recycler, there are plenty of weed seeds already in the garden, and I'm not taking in any hazardous waste. I just dump it all in a pile, leave it a year, and then spread it in whatever state it is in.


That's my general approach as well. Dump it, pile it, ignore it, spread it. Usually a year is more than enough time to ignore it, but some of my large piles never got chipped so they contain stumps, branches from logging, fence posts, and whole trees that were not marketable. Those piles look like they will take about 3 years. Now that I have caught up with other uses for manure and sludge, the big piles are getting loads of poo to speed up the process.


----------



## DEKE01

TxMex said:


> I feel like a cartoon character that just had a lightbulb turn on over my head! Trench composting....never heard of it before. Due to the magic of google, I now know what trench composting is. This may be perfect.
> 
> How about if I use a plow to hill up the rows and put my compost in the ditch that is formed. Then rather than covering it up with dirt, I lay down a thick layer of mulch. Wouldn't the plant roots grow towards the compost between the rows? The thick mulch layer would keep down weeds, would allow air to get to the compost and would keep my feet up above the manure. What do you think?


trench composting is what I did on a suburban lot where the HOA would not allow me to make piles. I trenched anywhere in the garden I had an open space between plants. It was very effective at quickly reducing the material unless I piled grass clippings too thickly. Grass would form a mat and slow the decay for some reason. If grass was mixed in with all the kitchen wastes, all would be soil within just a few months in summer, a bit longer in winter. 

The grass mats did do a good job as a weed block and also discouraged critters from digging in the garden. Mice, possums, and squirrels would dig up kitchen wastes except where the grass mats were thick. I guessed that it had something to do with their breathing, but don't know for sure.


----------



## dlskidmore

DEKE01 said:


> Yes, yes, agreed. Are you going to pay me $144 for a 5 gallon compost bucket or not?


We are not the target market for that device. The target market might not compost at all without it.

And how much have posters in this thread spent on tractors and trailers for moving bulk compost? How much fuel have they spent? Sure, they got more compost out, but it's not free for large or small scale. At my scale the major cost is my labor.


----------



## bluefish

I have a question. What are thoughts about composting animals that have been put down with euthasol? My mom had her cat put down and gave it to me to bury. Right now it's in the freezer and the ground is frozen hard. My compost 'piles' are bins made of 6-8 pallets. Keeps the dogs out of it. Would these be big enough for the dilution/solution to apply? I compost dead animals a lot, but they've all been roadkill or shot. I know euthasol doesn't break down well, so...........


----------



## Forerunner

dlskidmore said:


> I just dump it all in a pile, leave it a year, and then spread it in whatever state it is in.


Well, aren't you just the sprawling compost baron ! 

All of my compost gets spread in Illinois...... on a really small portion of Illinois, for that matter. :indif:


----------



## Forerunner

*Thermo*.....I'd put that kitty in my hottest working pile, buried in a couple feet or so with a pitch fork, and forget about it. After reading Jo Jenkins and my own experience, I'm not afraid of much quirky stuff coming into my piles, especially no more than a dead animal could carry in, especially no more than a dead _little_ animal would carry in.

.......and, *MyHeaven*......burying your bones around your fruit trees is a noble use if ever there was. Don't sweat grinding them unless a cheap and easy process avails you, as it did me.

.....and, I have to agree, a little bit, with *DlsKid*.....some folks need a happy little knick knack to jump start their enthusiasm, and, as *Martin* has shown, good compost can be made with a tumbler if attention and some expertise are applied.

Now a five gallon bucket-sized compost pepper shaker.....that's just cute, of course, but some folks need cute. That's why I always pee a big, happy smiley face in whatever compost pile I'm communing with, at the time......kind of like a "have-a-nice-day" to the NSA folks way up there in the high altitudes...... :shrug:


ETA......

Oh, and.....as to justifying heavy expenditures to supplement (make possible the scale of ?) the composting operation,
my tractors and trailers serve about a hundred purposes aside from the composting.
I just kinda make use of what I have, and if I can make a purchase that will serve 5 (or a hundred) different purposes, I will.

It would be fun, though, to go shopping with DEKE sometime and hand out compost-informative fliers to all the folks we came across who were considering purchasing a five gallon compost shaker.......... :whistlin:



.


----------



## dlskidmore

Forerunner said:


> Oh, and.....as to justifying heavy expenditures to supplement (make possible the scale of ?) the composting operation,
> my tractors and trailers serve about a hundred purposes aside from the composting.
> I just kinda make use of what I have, and if I can make a purchase that will serve 5 (or a hundred) different purposes, I will.
> .


I didn't mean to be critical, just saying it isn't free. If we only did what is really free we would do nothing. We trade something we value less for something we value more. Money is not always involved in the trade, but sometimes it helps put perspective on things to put a monetary value on your time, materials, land use, and finished product. 

My primary employment doesn't use a tractor, so for me it would be an expensive toy. Someone else needs one anyway and only needs to count fuel use and wear and tear against a particular use.

My land is already very rich, compost is not going to give me as big a boost as someone with sandy soil would get from it, so the relative value coming out is lower for me than others.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> The extreme composting cure...
> 
> http://www.gardeners.com/Dual-Batch...t,pd.html?start=1&cgid=WeeklyWebSpecials_Dept
> 
> The great thing about this product is that it gets rid of that annoying $144 + tax, shipping, & handling, in your wallet all the while it produces minute quantities of compost.
> 
> It made me laugh. I hope these things sit on the shelf in the warehouse for a long time.


Hey its cute!


----------



## Paquebot

Forerunner said:


> It would be fun, though, to go shopping with DEKE sometime and hand out compost-informative fliers to all the folks we came across who were considering purchasing a five gallon compost shaker.......... :whistlin:


There is one point that can not be denied from what is contained in this entire thread. One can make 5 or 5,000 gallons of compost at a time. The organic matter breaks down to the same cells no matter what process is used. The natural way is passive, either in or on the ground. Quantity is not an issue as a single oak leaf or a 2" thick layer maybe involved. The closest thing to natural is sheet composting. That's an accepted form and just a fancy designation for spreading garbage. And that's little different than a farmer spreading fresh manure on a field or someone spreading kitchen waste on a garden. The disadvantage to both is that any rotting organic matter loses some of its nutrients to the atmosphere when exposed to air. That applies to both piles and surface spreading. Trench composting and other contained passive systems lessen that. Many of my neighbors have an Earth Machine for their kitchen scraps. They put out some great finished compost which is better than anything I can make with my woody leaf-based batches. Does anyone here think that the little amount that those Earth Machines produce is of less importance to the Earth than the same amount produced from a commercial facility? 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Is 144 us dollars a wise and efficient investment amount for the return in this application ?


----------



## bja105

My composting has been mostly with small piles, made by hand, or trenches for chicken guts and feathers. It has worked, as well as just tilling in the materials. I have had very limited equipment, lots of land to improve, and an impressive source of free carbon.


Well now I'm starting to go Forerunner on it.


I still need a dump truck or a dump trailer. I have also thought about a smaller, cheaper old tractor and a pto manure spreader.


----------



## Forerunner

bja105 said:


> My composting has been mostly with small piles, made by hand, or trenches for chicken guts and feathers. It has worked, as well as just tilling in the materials. I have had very limited equipment, lots of land to improve, and an impressive source of free carbon.
> Well now I'm starting to go Forerunner on it.
> 
> 
> I still need a dump truck or a dump trailer. I have also thought about a smaller, cheaper old tractor and a pto manure spreader.


For land sake, Bja......let's keep that our little secret lest some of the overtly emotional extremists blow yet another gasket !


----------



## TxGypsy

I have steam!!!!! :bouncy:

While turning my pile today I saw steam under the front end loader bucket! I am so excited. I guess I finally got enough moisture into it to get things working. I went ahead and filled up the loader bucket with water and added it. It is supposed to rain later this week and I'm thinking about spreading out the pile a bit so it can gather moisture. I started out with really dry manure from under a loafing shed. I have steam!


----------



## Forerunner

_*STEAM*_ ?!!!! :flame:


....._*AND*_ a _front loader bucket_ ?







_*BLASPHEMER !!!!!*_

























.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Is 144 us dollars a wise and efficient investment amount for the return in this application ?


Egg-zakly, that's all I'm saying. While I do admit to some measure of compost envy of the extreme extremist, I don't measure my manhood by the size of my piles. It seems some folks do. 

I find it beyond absurd that someone can say a product is just as good as a 5 gal bucket and then try to justify that the product is worth $144. I know some suburbanites get a kick start out of tumblers, but $144 is a rip off, plain and simple. We might get more coffee grounds out of the muni dump and into flower beds if more people knew that a gimicky gizmo wasn't needed, just a little space for dirt, a shovel to dig a hole, and a bucket to carry the gunk from kitchen to back yard.

Yep, composting is the important thing, in what ever amount a family can do. In my now almost former suburban home, sometimes I might not make a gallon of inputs in 2 days. That went in a trench and my garden made me proud even if I had to leave zukes on random front porches like so many unwanted babies. 

Now I get great satisfaction from doing things bigger, and I don't buy anything but a little diesel to support my rotting habit. All the equipment, LBH, tractor, chipper, dump trailer, have to earn their way onto the farm by being billable to paying jobs, on and off farm, throughout the year. I can justify the diesel because I have to clear the property to some degree anyway, and I have now gone 3 years and I can calculate my purchased fertilizer bill to the penny...$0.00 I did buy a ~$10 bag of lime because someone said it would kill our pasture cactii. They were wrong.


----------



## Studhauler

I'm inspired by those that pull a 3 wagon train of compost and those who have been composting since in 63 and every one in-between. If someone toots there own horn a little to much or puts down other, I just ignore it, because I am sure I have done the same. However, it ain't bragging if you can back it up.


----------



## TxGypsy

Paquebot said:


> Don't spread it. Keep it mounded while the weather is dry. As long as there is moisture in the soil, there is moisture coming up from below. Just before it rains, you could somewhat flatten the top so that more would go into the center. However, that only applies of your outside material is such that it will shed water rather than absorb it. For that matter, nothing wrong with dumping a couple of 5-gallon pails of water on it. That's usually more than ample for a cubic yard of dry material. More people err on the wet side than dry. Only needs to be damp, not like a wet sponge as some advise.
> 
> Martin


Definitely not pulling up moisture out of the ground at the moment. Dust possibly, water no. I've been filling the bucket on my front end loader with water and driving it over to the pile. I started out with dusty dry manure, so I am still trying to get some moisture into all of it.

Yes, I will keep it piled up until before the rain. I was thinking of forming it into a more spread out pile....sort of the shape you would associate with a gold bar. So not completely un-piling it at all.


----------



## Paquebot

TxMex said:


> Definitely not pulling up moisture out of the ground at the moment. Dust possibly, water no. I've been filling the bucket on my front end loader with water and driving it over to the pile. I started out with dusty dry manure, so I am still trying to get some moisture into all of it.
> 
> Yes, I will keep it piled up until before the rain. I was thinking of forming it into a more spread out pile....sort of the shape you would associate with a gold bar. So not completely un-piling it at all.


When I used to make what I called beaverlodge piles, they would start with about the equal to 125 or so bags of leaves and then shredded along with whatever was available for garden waste. That would be about all that could be piled in 100 square feet. When complete, I'd take a spud bar and punch 3 or 4 holes right down the middle and then dump 5 gallons of water in each one. That was more than sufficient. The activity at the core of the pile would have moisture coming up through the material and the whole works would be damp as a result. One such pile totally dissolved 7 deer heads and a lot other bits and offal without ever turning. That pile was just like a slow cooker plugged in for 6 months.

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Wasn't this whole fiasco opened for business by some clown with a beat up old pickup and a pitch fork ? :huh:


----------



## dablack

An apple in a mico-pile. I like that. What if someone sold a dixie cup sized tumbler for $10. Yes, in time, it would pay for itself but why not just leave a dixie cup sized pile on the ground and go from there. I don't see why anyone would pay for a dixie cup sixed tumbler for $10 or a 44 gallon one for $144. It is just as easy to pile the stuff on the ground. 

On someone's suggestion, I looked back and checked my posts in this thread to see if anyone put down any of my ideas. Nope. All possitive. Now, with that said, when others suggested a store bought holder for organic material, some people said, it wasn't the best idea. Nothing insulting about it.

Not everyone can compost like FR, but it sure is fun to watch. The best posts in this thread are the ones with pics of piles and green gardens or green fields. Once you start composting you always want to do more. FR shows us exactly how far you can go with you want to be extreme. With that said, if bja105 or I posted pictures of us spreading five yards of sawdust over a certain area and then showed how to soil changed in that area, I'm sure everyone would be interested even if it was only an area of 350 sqft.


----------



## Homesteader

Forerunner see what you've started! This weekend, as DH and I were standing outside, I said, hey I have to _ee, and started heading for the house. 

DH says: The compost pile is the other way.

No one has communed with it yet. But you definately got DH thinking about it. It was quite funny and I thought of you.

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled debate over small composters.....


----------



## DEKE01

dlskidmore said:


> Talking opportunity costs, does the fancy compost barrel save time in turning the pile? (And cleaning up after hand turning the pile.) What is the opportunity cost of that time?
> 
> (I don't want one, just saying people that buy them are not complete idiots.)


Oh, don't get me started on time when it comes to barrels. I always liked the concept of barrels until I came to realize how much more labor intensive they are. I used to be an avid turner until I realized God, worms, bacteria, and fungi could get along just fine without me getting in the way. So I have slower piles, but less costly in terms of labor, whether it is in the form of a shovel or front end loader. 

The great thing about trenching is when done right, there is no further labor involved. It composts right at the feet of your garden plants. FR made me realize one of the things I was doing wrong with composting is that piles, big or small, should be built right where they will be used - if possible. That fertilizes the soil with compost run off and reduces spreading time and labor. 

In another thread on horse manure composting, Martin disagreed with siting piles in the garden, citing the dire threat of salts, before he agreed with piling it in the garden. He kept arguing I was wrong the whole time even when he was agreeing with me, even when he was saying the opposite of what he had first said. That's why I've lost patience with him - even though I still find him to be a FANTASTIC source of garden info on most things.


----------



## myheaven

My new favorite soap opera "as the compost turns". I love how "heated" it's getting. Lol ill shut up now.


----------



## Paquebot

Just remember, IALBTC.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/soil/2002014600023975.html

Martn


----------



## dlskidmore

myheaven said:


> My new favorite soap opera "as the compost turns". I love how "heated" it's getting. Lol ill shut up now.


Very "steamy"


----------



## am1too

Must be the dog days of winter.


----------



## Forerunner

Please reference the post in which I belittled a small-timer........for simply being a small-timer........which is where we all get our start........

......please..........


----------



## dlskidmore

Can we save the urinating for the poor nitrogen starved compost piles?

I've not seen belittling of small compost piles, just the expensive compost gizmo. I personally don't find it worth the money, but I could see it having a place in beginner composter's yard.


----------



## Forerunner

Forerunner said:


> Enthusiasm is what it's all about, and, apparently, there are as many individual sources of inspiration as there are endeavors to be undertaken in this world.
> 
> :grouphug:




MMmmmmmmm.


Looks like the Cleaning Lady came through and spread a nice, thick layer of fresh sawdust. 

Smells like red oak.....my favorite.

That'll keep things smelling fresh.......and our boots clean...... for a while. :grin:


----------



## AngieM2

This thread has always been about how forerunner is doing a large amount of composting and helping others learn how to start with what they have and expand to the extent they wish to do.

I have not read all of it, and don't have time to, but I may be going back a few days, and also checking in more often so it does not have to have new straw put down.


----------



## Shoestringer

Alright so it didn't bother me much with one house cat, but now we have a couple more on long term deposit from an in-law and there is a lot of litter going to the curb. Anyone compost it? My compost pile is not enormous but with animal bedding and everything else I can dump into it, it is building up. I am not composting deadstock just yet, however. Any recommendations on type of litter to use (clumping, granular, etc)? The barn cat does just fine with straw, but that likely won't be a popular solution in the house.


----------



## DEKE01

Shoestringer said:


> Alright so it didn't bother me much with one house cat, but now we have a couple more on long term deposit from an in-law and there is a lot of litter going to the curb. Anyone compost it? My compost pile is not enormous but with animal bedding and everything else I can dump into it, it is building up. I am not composting deadstock just yet, however. Any recommendations on type of litter to use (clumping, granular, etc)? The barn cat does just fine with straw, but that likely won't be a popular solution in the house.


I would use natural clay with baking soda to control odors while it is in the house.


----------



## Forerunner

Shoestringer...... do you have enough mass to get heat ?

I second DEKE's recommendation about going as natural as possible with the litter.

If you've got a heating pile, just about anything goes, as per your particulars.
Heat does serve some remarkable purposes when it comes to recycling pathogens and odd chemicals.

If no heat, then bury the cat stuff in the middle of the pile and let set a few extra months.

(and then haul in or round up enough goodies to make a bigger, hot pile.
Once you've got steam and cooking temps, you'll likely never want to go back to cold composting. It's a whole 'nuther world, in there. :thumb


----------



## Paquebot

Baking soda is a natural fungicide. As such it will also kill beneficial fungi in both compost and soil. Some soil and compost experts advise against using it in cat litter if end use is in compost or garden, especially the Arm & Hammer brand.

Martin


----------



## DEKE01

Going forward, just to set the record straight, I think all composting efforts, sheet, pile, trench, and tumbler (did I leave out any?) are a net positive. Small or large scale doesn't matter as long valuable bio-wastes are getting diverted out of landfills and something good is happening with the finished product. I've been a micro scale composter and now I'm on a somewhat macro scale composter, size doesn't matter, it's the motion of the ocean...no wait, I got confused there for a moment. 

IMO, not all composting methods are right in all situations, it depends on the volume of inputs, as well as the available time, tools, water, space, and know how. And perhaps others will be able to remember my stance if I set it to music...(who remembers 80's TV?)

0/~ Now, the world don't compost to the beat of just one drum, 
What might be right for you, may not be right for some. 
It takes, Diff'rent composting methods 
It takes, Diff'rent composting methods to fertilize the world. 

Everybody's got a special kind of kitchen waste 
Everybody makes a poo, 
It don't matter that you got not alot 
So what, 
They'll have theirs, and you'll have yours, and I'll have mine. 
And together we'll be fine.... 
Because it takes, Diff'rent composting methods to move the world. 
Yes it does. 
It takes, Diff'rent composting methods to move the world. 0/~


----------



## Paquebot

DEKE, for what it's worth, your humility impresses me. IALBTC.

Martin


----------



## DEKE01

Paquebot said:


> Baking soda is a natural fungicide. As such it will also kill beneficial fungi in both compost and soil. Some soil and compost experts advise against using it in cat litter if end use is in compost or garden, especially the Arm & Hammer brand.
> 
> Martin


And that is why I keep coming back to this thread. Good info. What is interesting is how many sites recommend baking soda for odor control. Now that I've read up on it a bit, I can see how the amount of baking soda in repeated cat litter dumpings could unbalance a normal backyard sized pile.


----------



## Shoestringer

Yep. I would have missed the mark on the baking soda. Natural clay is what I was thinking, but I will have to check for additives. Otherwise I guess the fancy, eco, newspaper litter is the way to go. pricey though.
My piles are not steaming yet but I hope they will be next year. I plan to repile what I have got now, layered old straw, winter bedding pack from sheep and pigs, some grocery store offcasts, older, composted manure, and whatever green material I clean up from around the property in Spring. Does anyone add soil to their piles? I have the Rodale composting book, which recommends it. Not sure I want to spare any of the planting soil I have though...
Any other ideas on activating a pile in Spring?


----------



## dlskidmore

I've heard some folk have good luck with chicken layer crumbles as cat litter. Should compost well at least.


----------



## dlskidmore

I apologize, I don't normally have a foul mouth, but I found the pun irresistible.


----------



## DEKE01

Shoestringer said:


> Yep. I would have missed the mark on the baking soda. Natural clay is what I was thinking, but I will have to check for additives. Otherwise I guess the fancy, eco, newspaper litter is the way to go. pricey though.
> My piles are not steaming yet but I hope they will be next year. I plan to repile what I have got now, layered old straw, winter bedding pack from sheep and pigs, some grocery store offcasts, older, composted manure, and whatever green material I clean up from around the property in Spring. Does anyone add soil to their piles? I have the Rodale composting book, which recommends it. Not sure I want to spare any of the planting soil I have though...
> Any other ideas on activating a pile in Spring?


On the advice of folks here, I added soil to piles of year old slash and stumps left over from when I had pine harvested. Even though I bring in tons of sludge and manure each month to amend garden soil and put on the piles, I just can't get enough to hit every pile. In just 3 months since a added the dirt, I see LOTS more decay, fungal blooms, and a size reduction in the range of about 20%. 

Where it had looked like it was still more than a couple of years away from being able to use some of those piles, now I'm guessing some will be ready by year end. I might have to fish some of the larger stumps out and re-pile those, but the slash is finally breaking down. 

Previously, without the dirt/sand, the piles were drying out. Now they are holding moisture and I think that and whatever micro bugs are in the soil is making the difference.


----------



## DEKE01

It is interesting timing on what turned up in my inbox this morning. MEN wants us to know about the variety of commercial composting products. 

Choose the best composting bin: http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/best-compost-bin-zm0z14fmzmar.aspx?PageId=1

Comparing Composters - pros and cons: http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/~/media/1DD2B7C9B05743FEA2BDDE16B6950651.ashx

Composting bins on the market: http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/composting-bins-zb0z1310ztri.aspx

My personal bias is that spending $100+ to make backyard sized amounts of compost is a bad idea. Open piles, free pallet bins, scrap wire cages, trenching, etc can all be done for free and get similar results. But if you need a more attractive set up for your circumstances, there are a nice variety of options shown. If you need a fast process and don't have a motorized mechanical means of turning or enough back strength to do it with a pitchfork, tumblers might be the answer for you.


----------



## TxGypsy

Shoestringer said:


> Yep. I would have missed the mark on the baking soda. Natural clay is what I was thinking, but I will have to check for additives. Otherwise I guess the fancy, eco, newspaper litter is the way to go. pricey though.
> My piles are not steaming yet but I hope they will be next year. I plan to repile what I have got now, layered old straw, winter bedding pack from sheep and pigs, some grocery store offcasts, older, composted manure, and whatever green material I clean up from around the property in Spring. Does anyone add soil to their piles? I have the Rodale composting book, which recommends it. Not sure I want to spare any of the planting soil I have though...
> Any other ideas on activating a pile in Spring?


I have a fair amount of soil in my pile. It happens naturally as I'm trying to scrape up the last bit of manure with the front end loader.


----------



## bluefish

As far as the cat litter, anything absorbent will work. I use sawdust. Some people use pellets intended for pellet stoves. I have no idea if they have any additives or not, but it's a thought. You can get shavings pretty easy though. Before I had access to large scale sawdust from a sawmill, I used to buy a bale of shavings at the feed store. That would last a long time if used only for the litter box.


----------



## Forerunner

Shoestringer said:


> Yep. I would have missed the mark on the baking soda. Natural clay is what I was thinking, but I will have to check for additives. Otherwise I guess the fancy, eco, newspaper litter is the way to go. pricey though.
> My piles are not steaming yet but I hope they will be next year. I plan to repile what I have got now, layered old straw, winter bedding pack from sheep and pigs, some grocery store offcasts, older, composted manure, and whatever green material I clean up from around the property in Spring. Does anyone add soil to their piles? I have the Rodale composting book, which recommends it. Not sure I want to spare any of the planting soil I have though...
> Any other ideas on activating a pile in Spring?



IF I found myself subjected to the presence of a cat or cats in the house, long term....... *shudders*.....I would use hardwood sawdust in the litter box. I wouldn't buy nuthin'. :heh:
But that's me.

I do occasionally add dirt to a pile, as the compost spirits guide me to do so. There are critters large and small in established soil who immediately enhance the activity of freshly assembled compost ingredients.
If you've got Rodale's Composting....... (I hope you have the old 60s vintage hardback..... I have both, and, like a good compost tumbler, the revised version will get you started in the right direction. :heh: ) ......might I suggest that you supplement that with Joseph Jenkins' "Humanure Handbook" ?
The science and wisdom contained therein is nothing short of phenomenal.

As for activating a spring pile......determine the moisture level.
If it is on the _dry side_, commune with it, frequently. 
Also add spoiled milk and other liquid kitchen scraps. Nature will take care of the warming cycle if the pile has been frozen over the winter.

On the _wet side_, stir in some fresh ingredients that are on the dry side, favoring carbon content.


----------



## Forerunner

DEKE01 said:


> Open piles, free pallet bins, scrap wire cages, trenching, etc can all be done for free and get similar results.


Don't forget straw bales. 

They can be disassembled and recycled come tater mulching time.

....or, let 'em rot on down and fold them into the pile after the base ingredients are no longer recognizable and the containment box no longer necessary.


----------



## TxGypsy

I have proof positive that my compost pile is getting hot. The cows decided to use it as their bed last night. At least they left me some fresh material to add to the pile. I've got to re-pile it today after they got through with it. Reminds me, I'm going to have to start shutting the gate here as soon as I plant blackberries. For the time being, the cows come and check out the beds where I'll be planting the blackberries and usually leave me little presents to till in. Curious critters are cows.


----------



## Paquebot

The micro-organisms which compost organic matter are found primarily in the soil. If you make a pile of organic matter containing material which has not come from the soil, there is only a small amount of them. Although they multiply rapidly, it still takes a long time for them to build a suitable colony to begin decomposing a large pile. After all, they have evolved to just work on a small item on or in the soil and do it at their leisure. One can purchase compost starter which which is basically a massive quantity of them in dormant form. One can have a pile comprised of nothing but dry leaves. Add the starter plus water and it's almost instant action. Most experts will tell you that although they work great, soil mixed with the material when making the pile is almost as good. That stuff wasn't available when Rodale wrote the book so soil was the best compost starter at the time.

Martin


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Don't forget straw bales.
> 
> They can be disassembled and recycled come tater mulching time.
> 
> ....or, let 'em rot on down and fold them into the pile after the base ingredients are no longer recognizable and the containment box no longer necessary.


I do forget straw bales, even though straw bale compost "bins" are a cool idea, because straw is so dang expensive in FL. I was in the feed store yesterday and straw was more $$$ than many of the hays.


----------



## Forerunner

Ah, yes.

The challenge of location logistics.......



Oldish straw can often be had around here for the taking......


----------



## Studhauler

Paquebot said:


> When complete, I'd take a spud bar and punch 3 or 4 holes right down the middle and then dump 5 gallons of water in each one.


Hey that is a good idea, thanks. I run the garden hose and/or the sprinkler on my piles but allot of it runs off. I have been trying to think of different ways to get the water to the middle, your way will be very efficient. I'll still use a hose vs the 5 gallon bucket.


----------



## am1too

TxMex said:


> Definitely not pulling up moisture out of the ground at the moment. Dust possibly, water no. I've been filling the bucket on my front end loader with water and driving it over to the pile. I started out with dusty dry manure, so I am still trying to get some moisture into all of it.
> 
> Yes, I will keep it piled up until before the rain. I was thinking of forming it into a more spread out pile....sort of the shape you would associate with a gold bar. So not completely un-piling it at all.


all my piles are made that way.


----------



## Freya

:shrug: Anyone heard from *mudburn*? His last blog post a few years ago was about trying a "Back to Eden" garden. Anyone know how that went? Doesn't look like he is posting on HsT anymore.


----------



## Forerunner

I think he wised up and returned to his private life........


----------



## TxGypsy

Studhauler said:


> Hey that is a good idea, thanks. I run the garden hose and/or the sprinkler on my piles but allot of it runs off. I have been trying to think of different ways to get the water to the middle, your way will be very efficient. I'll still use a hose vs the 5 gallon bucket.


If you are using a tractor with your pile, it is very easy to make a trough in the top. Kind of like when you make an indention in your mashed potatoes for gravy. I put the edge of my bucket straight down and wiggle it to make the indention. Then all water put onto the pile is directed down into the middle.


----------



## Tobster

Freya said:


> :shrug: Anyone heard from *mudburn*? His last blog post a few years ago was about trying a "Back to Eden" garden. Anyone know how that went? Doesn't look like he is posting on HsT anymore.


He had a blog detailing the construction of his home, including videos. I believe he included links to the blog or website for his project in a few posts within this thread. He built the home with the help of his dad and it is an impressive result.


----------



## DEKE01

The mention of Mudburn made me go back a re-re-read a few of his posts. His defense of extreme composting vs Wild Thang was excellent and reminded me of a more recent bout of those with extreme envy. Someone should go add a ton or two of baking soda to his piles to see if we can get him agitated enough to come back and update us on his progress.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Mudburn's gone? I just started re-reading this thread from the beginning for the second time (up to pg.12 now) and I've really enjoyed his and Forerunner's posts and pictures from the early days acquiring and building machinery to move more material at a time. Especially since I'm in the process of upgrading from an 8N Ford and a small pickup to a loader and beefier truck and trailer. They are gonna' be one at a time additions since I refuse to go into debt to get them. 

Forerunner, Thank you once again for starting this thread. Most useful and entertaining thing on the internet imo. 

Allen


----------



## Forerunner

Between DEKE and Allen......I don't know whether to laugh or cry......

I do miss Mudburn, though.

He understood. 


Hang in there, felluhs. 

There's nothing quite like someone from a ways away coming in and asking how I got so lucky to have all this black dirt......right in the middle of sand and timber soil hill country.














.


----------



## Freya

Tobster said:


> He had a blog detailing the construction of his home, including videos. I believe he included links to the blog or website for his project in a few posts within this thread. He built the home with the help of his dad and it is an impressive result.


Yep and his last blog post was in 2011 about starting a "Back to Eden" garden. And I always wondered how it turned out. :awh:


----------



## dlskidmore

Freya said:


> Yep and his last blog post was in 2011 about starting a "Back to Eden" garden. And I always wondered how it turned out. :awh:


I never understood why people come out of that video believing that compost and mulch are new ideas, our that wood chips are the only good mulch. One person that tried it was planting right in the wood chips with nothing underneath, and it did not go well.


----------



## Freya

dlskidmore said:


> I never understood why people come out of that video believing that compost and mulch are new ideas, our that wood chips are the only good mulch. One person that tried it was planting right in the wood chips with nothing underneath, and it did not go well.



Oh I know it's not "new". At the time I knew mudburn was following in the path of Forerunner with compost and I was curious to see how all of it turned out. They both had awesome blogs and I miss reading them! 

Curiosity, plain and simple. It's like reading a good book that someone tore the last chapters out of! :sob: You want to know how it ended! :rock:


----------



## dlskidmore

Freya said:


> Oh I know it's not "new".


Yeah, the average person in this thread is better educated about compost than the average person that references the "Back to Eden" video.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Well the weather was fairly decent this afternoon so I started a new pile. Wood chips (old) mixed with horse and chicken manure and oak leaves.

It's only about 11 feet long and 3 foot high so far. A broke down old guy with a shovel,pitch fork and a wheel barrow just don't make head way very fast. :sob:


----------



## am1too

SmokeEater2 said:


> Well the weather was fairly decent this afternoon so I started a new pile. Wood chips (old) mixed with horse and chicken manure and oak leaves.
> 
> It's only about 11 feet long and 3 foot high so far. A broke down old guy with a shovel,pitch fork and a wheel barrow just don't make head way very fast. :sob:


I get most of my compost material pre mixed. It grinder tub offal. They load it for free and I pile it up right off of the trailer as high as I can throw it. When it get that high I move the trailer up a couple feet. 

I do turn it sometimes with a FEL though. That's more fun than work. I need to turn - er move a pile out of the way. I'll put it more across the slope to catch the run off and cleat a path.


----------



## SmokeEater2

am1too said:


> I get most of my compost material pre mixed. It grinder tub offal. They load it for free and I pile it up right off of the trailer as high as I can throw it. When it get that high I move the trailer up a couple feet.
> 
> I do turn it sometimes with a FEL though. That's more fun than work. I need to turn - er move a pile out of the way. I'll put it more across the slope to catch the run off and cleat a path.



Oh yeah! A front end loader (sigh) As soon as I get my hands on one of those beauties this is gonna' go a LOT faster. :gaptooth:


----------



## Paquebot

Freya said:


> Oh I know it's not "new". At the time I knew mudburn was following in the path of Forerunner with compost and I was curious to see how all of it turned out. They both had awesome blogs and I miss reading them!
> 
> Curiosity, plain and simple. It's like reading a good book that someone tore the last chapters out of! :sob: You want to know how it ended! :rock:


"Back to Eden" is based on the thought that if small is good, then extreme is the best. In the forest of Eden, soil is built at the rate of one inch per thousand years and done by a single leaf or twig at a time. Woods dirt is really great. If one could go to the extreme and supply a thousand years of leaves and twigs at one go, then it should be many times greater. Looks good on paper but so does something else if one has been constipated for a week.

Martin


----------



## DEKE01

I've never seen Back to Eden, all I know of it is the tidbits I see described here. But I used to know a guy in South Florida, 25 years ago, he might have been an extension agent, master gardener I think. He had the local chipper guys dump almost every day on his couple of acres of personal arboretum. He would faithfully spread the stuff around and when I saw it, he had been doing this for years. 

Some of the older, larger trees sat in a sort of chip well that was 2+ feet deep. To get into his little jungle, you had to walk up a chip ramp that was 1 to 3 ft high. The ground was quite spongy because of the immense amount of organic matter. If Eden adds an inch per thousand years, he had 25,000 years worth. It was sort of extreme sheet composting. Very impressive.


----------



## dlskidmore

DEKE01 said:


> To get into his little jungle, you had to walk up a chip ramp that was 1 to 3 ft high. The ground was quite spongy because of the immense amount of organic matter.


At some point you may as well call that hugelkultur?


----------



## Paquebot

dlskidmore said:


> At some point you may as well call that hugelkultur?


No, hugelkultur is a form of garden construction which employs a base of large pieces of aged or rotting wood or logs which sole purpose is moisture retention. Compost or manure is layered above that for fertility and then covered with soil as the planting medium. 

Martin


----------



## Forerunner

Thanks for thinking of me, DEKE. 


I'm also working to overcome my misanthropic and egocentric tendencies.



:ashamed:


----------



## AngieM2

I've cleaned this up again and all posts deleted either were trying to change the thread or made comments concerning quotes or replies to this. Please do not try to make it into what it is not.


----------



## DEKE01

dlskidmore said:


> At some point you may as well call that hugelkultur?


Upon reflection of my earlier attempts to convey my thoughts...

Yep, you're right in a way and I will call it a sort of hugelkultur.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Thanks for thinking of me, DEKE.
> 
> 
> I'm also working to overcome my misanthropic and egocentric tendencies.
> 
> 
> 
> :ashamed:


Perhaps you should work harder...

:whistlin: 

I'm filling a complaint with management. There is no good composting emoticon out there. 

Fortunately, I'm perfect in every way so I have nothing to work on. eep:


----------



## dlskidmore

DEKE01 said:


> There is no good composting emoticon out there.


Closest I can come up with: :bdh: (burying a dead horse) :stirpot: (stirring compost)


----------



## SmokeEater2

Last nice day before lousy weather gets here. Hopefully I can get this pile finished up before the snow gets here. 

C'mon Spring!


----------



## Forerunner

I don't mind the snow, so much.

It's gratifying to see the black piles poking out after a good ten-twelve inch dusting.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Forerunner I'd hazard a guess that you're more familiar with snow in Illinois than I am here in Arkansas. I don't like it anytime the temperature drops low enough to snow. :yuck:

But, I'll be missing this kind of weather around August when it's 100 degrees and high humidity to go along with it. Just hard to please I guess. :ashamed:


----------



## Forerunner

Well, I guess.....


Your poor wife. :indif:


ETA.......

All of my "sources" are currently frozen down, tight.....cuz of this weather, and the break has been refreshing. 




.


----------



## mtncalm

Wow, what a great read!

Here's to all who like to commune with the pile.









With all this new knowledge my worms are going to love their new home.

Thanks again for an excellent thread.

Mtncalm : )


----------



## Forerunner

Glad you could join us. 


Watch those worms.....

They're party animals.:drum:


----------



## mtncalm

I know.......they're such a bunch of rowdies! :buds:


----------



## hemarti3

Shoestringer said:


> Yep. I would have missed the mark on the baking soda. Natural clay is what I was thinking, but I will have to check for additives. Otherwise I guess the fancy, eco, newspaper litter is the way to go. pricey though.


Shoestringer: I have 5 inside cats and use a combination of pressed pine pellets and ground walnuts. It may be expensive but is entirely compostable and "the pile" has been slowly decomposing away in a forested area in our backyard for a few years. It all eventually rots and no smells ....the leaves cover it up and we have some kinda crazy green weed playing a happy dance on it:nanner:....BTW...the odor in the house is quite controlled too...I don't have to scoop as often as I did with that plasti-clay stuff I used to have.....but just pine pellets by themselves did not do the odor control....go figure


----------



## SmokeEater2

Snowing again today so no pile building, But there's always a bright side. I've always heard that snow adds Nitrogen so the soil is getting some good stuff anyway.


----------



## Freya

Paquebot said:


> ... Looks good on paper but so does something else if one has been constipated for a week.
> 
> Martin



Great, I just snorted hot chocolate on my keyboard. Thanks. :teehee:


----------



## Cascade Failure

Forerunner, on either this thread or one of your related ones you mentioned a preference for oak wood chips. Do you mind telling us why?


----------



## Forerunner

Density..... more material in the same space....and, having grown up around hardwood forestry and even doing a short stint working at the local sawmill in my late teens...I just love the smell of oak.


----------



## Cascade Failure

Thanks. I kind of thought so but I didn't know if you had another factor in mind. Luckily for me, oaks are my one of my greatest resources ... that and rocks.

Teach me how to compost a rock and I'll be a happy man. Those puppies won't go away no matter how much I commune with them.


----------



## dlskidmore

Cascade Failure said:


> Teach me how to compost a rock and I'll be a happy man.


Just need lichen and 10,000 years.

Unless it's limestone, in which case acid rain should do the trick in a little less time.


----------



## Forerunner

I just happen to have a rock composter.

Interestingly enough, it kinda works on the principle of a barrel composter. :whistlin:

I'll get some pics of it tomorrow.


----------



## Cascade Failure

Yeah...I've never composted a barrel either...


----------



## Cascade Failure

dlskidmore said:


> Just need lichen and 10,000 years.
> 
> Unless it's limestone, in which case acid rain should do the trick in a little less time.


I might have the time but the lichen is pretty much out of the question.


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

bja105 said:


> My composting has been mostly with small piles, made by hand, or trenches for chicken guts and feathers. It has worked, as well as just tilling in the materials. I have had very limited equipment, lots of land to improve, and an impressive source of free carbon.
> 
> 
> Well now I'm starting to go Forerunner on it.
> 
> 
> I still need a dump truck or a dump trailer. I have also thought about a smaller, cheaper old tractor and a pto manure spreader.


In the meantime, that little cub can pull a ton easy over level ground, just get plenty of weight on the tongue and stay on firm ground.


----------



## Oswego

I was thinking about Forerunner and the first pages of this thread this morning. I had put some sides on my trailer an built a way of dragging load off of trailer. This morning I hooked the trailer to the tractor and drove 30 minutes to my sawdust source, loaded the trailer with sawdust/shaving mix with loader and drove back home.
Now I need to determine where to dump it and test out my unloader method.


----------



## Forerunner

I haven't forgot those pics of my rock composter, either..... it's just under 2 feet of snow. :shrug:


----------



## Oswego

No tree near where I wanted to unload so I drove some commercial tent stakes in the ground, hooked the chain to them and the pile slid right off the trailer when pulled by tractor.

Maybe I'll get enough desire in the future to learn how to post pictures


----------



## DEKE01

OK, I have a potential source of used cooking oil from a local restaurant. They currently pay to have it disposed of so it could be a win/win if I haul it away for free and it is good for my piles. I know all the backyard composting advice is to not put vegetable oils in the pile, but I've had no problem getting rid of small amounts in my piles. However, this could be a 55 gal drum once a month or more. 

1. What would be clues the piles are getting overloaded and how much pile do you think it would take to balance that much oil?

2. Any reason you think that in the right amounts this would not be a nutrient positive addition to the pile? 

3. In my big piles that are nothing but slash and dirt, do you think the oil would be an accelerator or decelerator in pile decomposition? 

Downsides are it would probably be a wild hog/****/other critters attractor.


----------



## Oswego

Don't know about using it in compost but if you could get a drum a month it might be worth getting a diesel pickup. I understand you can burn it in diesel truck with minor effort on your part.


----------



## DEKE01

Oswego said:


> Don't know about using it in compost but if you could get a drum a month it might be worth getting a diesel pickup. I understand you can burn it in diesel truck with minor effort on your part.


I've looked into biodiesel. I'm burning 75 - 100 gal per week when on the farm and I would love to offset some of that cost. I wouldn't use it in my newish truck, but might experiment with it in the old tractor. The problem is, if I do it right, I save $2/gal (my internet reading says biodiesel still ends up costing in the range of $1 - 2 / gal). If I do it wrong, it cost me hundreds or even thousands of dollars and downed equipment time. Two or 3 drums of oil/month mixed 50/50 with ORD would be a nice bit of money saved.


----------



## Cascade Failure

Forerunner said:


> I haven't forgot those pics of my rock composter, either..... it's just under 2 feet of snow. :shrug:


That's ok, my rocks are covered as well.


----------



## Forerunner

My experience with veggie oil.......

Let it sit in a warm place after you get it home, for about a week. The longer the better.
Use the crystal clear stuff off the top for your fuel experiments.
Have the engine at full operating temp before introducing any percentage of veg oil to the fuel.
Switch back to strait diesel for a few minutes before shut-off to get the lines, pump and injectors cleaned out and primed with straight diesel for startup....
It's starting up cold on veg oil that carbons the combustion chamber.
Those steps can be a pain..... but if you're running in warm climates, and all day, it's certainly worth a few minutes prep time to burn free fuel.

As for the compost piles.....

I'm educated guestimating, here....
If you are able to make veg oil fuel work, that will eliminate at least 50% of your oil, and leave you with stuff that has more compost value, anyhow.
I would say one barrel per month, meted out to five gallon bucket portions scattered in light trenches, uniformly across the pile....could be swallowed up in a HOT pile the size of two semi trailer loads.
If I've followed your work, Deke.... you have piles that size....
I would think the oil would be a plus for slash piles, in meted quantities.

I don't know that used veg oil is particularly valuable to the compost pile, over all.....but it would have to feed critters. If they like used motor oil in moderation, well.... :shrug:


----------



## DEKE01

FR - I had a guy over last week who runs tri-axle dump trucks and excavator. He is doing some work for me and needs some fill dirt. So in my effort to be more and more like you :sob: he is digging me a pond. I did a test hole with my LBH and the site is near perfect. It is at the peak of my mountain...all of 105 ft above sea level and I'll be able to have a 30 - 40 ft head and 600 ft run to gravity feed my orchard. 

He'll pile the clay to one side for me to use on my roads and haul off about 30 - 40 dumpers of fill dirt. Since it is a short haul for him, saving tanks of diesel, it is a win - win for all. 

One of my bigger piles, it's nearest the road and easiest to add to, is in the way of the pond. I asked him to estimate how much material is in that pile and says 10 - 15 dumpers, which translates to 200 - 300 tons. I don't know what that translates to in semi-loads, but it is a lot of slash, dirt, and at least 30 tons of the sludge I hauled in. I have about 20 piles ranging from similar in size to half that big. In addition, I have a dozen piles that have been properly chipped and manured that are in the 5 - 10 ton range and near ready to go into the garden. 

It seems to me, I've got plenty of material that could absorb lots of oil. But everything I've read on line says, don't do it, oil in the pile will slow it down. But that goes against my instincts that anything from a plant short of petroleum is good fodder for a big pile.


----------



## SmokeEater2

You're gettin' a free pond?! :shocked:


----------



## dlskidmore

If you drown the compost in oil, it will keep oxygen from getting in to the other ingredients. I have no idea what the magic ratio is, but we have never had an issue including pan drippings and skim off soups in small scale composing. You might get away with adding more and more over time as you breed more oil loving microbes.


----------



## Forerunner

I don't think Deke is looking at a drown scenario.

Sounds/looks to me like he's got *plenty* of bulk to make oil disappear with little overall effect on the action.
Like I said, I don't know about the _value_ of straight veg oil to the compost...other than if he were able to make fuel of the clean oil, and compost the dregs.

Incidentally.....those nasty dregs _will_ have value to the compost pile.....

Kudos upon kudos for your growing extremism and resource utilization savvy, Deke. 

Mom would be proud. :grin:


:bow:


----------



## DEKE01

I was hoping Paquebot would chime in on this topic. I'm sure he has some knowledge of the veg oil vs compost issue.


----------



## dlskidmore

Chemically it would be a carbon? Exact formulas vary, but vegetable oil is defined as a triglyceride, which is defined as an ester, which I believe is all C O and H.


----------



## Forerunner

The microbes may convert that hydrocarbon to a carbohydrate.....making it palatable to yet other microbes ?

Any scientists among us care to chime in ?


----------



## dlskidmore

I'm more familiar with the opposite reaction, microbes in the digestive system turn complex carbohydrates into fats. I can only assume they use the fats in some way more directly after going to the trouble of making them. (The host certainly makes good use of them.)


----------



## Forerunner

I'm seeing a vision of really fat little microbes, sitting around tables in a bar, beer in one hand, fist full of fries in the other.....discussing the joys of all manner of indulgement....the dangers of living in red wriggler territory ?

:shrug:


----------



## myheaven

I was given 7 gallons if veg oil that was deemed un fit for humans. As in other stuff was dumped on the package and can't be sold. I have no need for
That much oil. Besides I don't use soybean oil. I add It to my animal ration for added energy. Sure was needed this winter.


----------



## Forerunner

There yuh have it.

If the stuff'll energize the warm bloods, in moderation.......it'll energize the Little Guys.


----------



## DEKE01

I'm away from the farm for a couple of weeks. Got a call this afternoon from a farm neighbor. I have one less wild hog as of last night, supposedly a 350 lb boar. The butcher remains went on one of my piles and another neighbor is telling me there were 100 (a man prone to exaggeration) buzzards hanging out there. I'm happy to have buzzard poop added directly to the pile. 

As to the veggie oil, I'm going to pass on it for a while. The restaurant doesn't want to cancel their grease pick up unless I can guarantee I'll always be available to haul it away when needed. Until I'm full time on the farm later this year, I can't be a reliable hauler. FR, I'm going with your logic and unless I can figure out a way to properly clean most of it for tractor fuel, I don't see enough benefit to make it worth my time.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> I'm away from the farm for a couple of weeks. Got a call this afternoon from a farm neighbor. I have one less wild hog as of last night, supposedly a 350 lb boar. The butcher remains went on one of my piles and another neighbor is telling me there were 100 (a man prone to exaggeration) buzzards hanging out there. I'm happy to have buzzard poop added directly to the pile.
> 
> As to the veggie oil, I'm going to pass on it for a while. The restaurant doesn't want to cancel their grease pick up unless I can guarantee I'll always be available to haul it away when needed. Until I'm full time on the farm later this year, I can't be a reliable hauler. FR, I'm going with your logic and unless I can figure out a way to properly clean most of it for tractor fuel, I don't see enough benefit to make it worth my time.


Run it through a couple filters. Gravity will work.


----------



## bja105

I need some ideas for unloading a 4x8 trailer of sawdust. I will be building sides for my little trailer, and I can load it with my tractor, but it does not dump, it tilts a little.

Does anyone know how much sawdust weighs per cubic foot or yard. This is sawmill dust, stored in a pile outside, probably wet.


----------



## Forerunner

4X8 trailer is just a short, but effective cardio-respiratory invigoration.

I recommend a standard-issue aluminum grain scoop.


----------



## am1too

bja105 said:


> I need some ideas for unloading a 4x8 trailer of sawdust. I will be building sides for my little trailer, and I can load it with my tractor, but it does not dump, it tilts a little.
> 
> Does anyone know how much sawdust weighs per cubic foot or yard. This is sawmill dust, stored in a pile outside, probably wet.


I bought a tarp attached to a bar with an insertable turning handle for $40. They say it'll handle a ton of material. It mounts on the tail gate of a pickup.

I found it at Harbor Freight.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> 4X8 trailer is just a short, but effective cardio-respiratory invigoration.
> 
> I recommend a standard-issue aluminum grain scoop.


For saw dust it works great. Takes maybe all of 15 minutes.


----------



## myheaven

bja105 said:


> I need some ideas for unloading a 4x8 trailer of sawdust. I will be building sides for my little trailer, and I can load it with my tractor, but it does not dump, it tilts a little.
> 
> Does anyone know how much sawdust weighs per cubic foot or yard. This is sawmill dust, stored in a pile outside, probably wet.


Find an old thrown out trampoline top. Lay that down first. Put sawmill dust on that. Attach a cable to the top closest to the tow vehicle. Attach other end to stationary object. Pull away, it will dump the dust.


----------



## DEKE01

I've had good luck with nothing more than a piece of 4x4 across the tow end of the trailer, attached to chains that hang off the back. Load on top of the chains. When you want to dump, use a heavy tie strap around a tree, attach to the chain, drive away and the trailer is empty much faster than my dump trailer tilts a load. 

The only time that disappointed me was when I had a very light load of brush. The 4x4 just pulled right out from under the brush. Heavy loads have not been a problem.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Forerunner said:


> 4X8 trailer is just a short, but effective cardio-respiratory invigoration.
> 
> I recommend a standard-issue aluminum grain scoop.



Yup. A scoop shovel has put every single ounce of material on my piles so far.

They work just fine but I'm really looking forward to a FEL. :ashamed:


----------



## TxGypsy

A picture of my current pile. It's about 4 foot tall.


----------



## Forerunner

Is your immediate climate more wet, or dry, Tex ?

Here where we've had ample moisture for some time, I'd have that pile coned up as high and tight as I could push it, to provide runoff and more mass in the heated core.

But if you are in need of moisture, letting it sit open to absorb all the rain it can is better.

I have been known to spread a dry pile before a forecast rain, then push it up, after, to conserve my moisture.


----------



## TxGypsy

I did that very thing before it started raining a while back Forerunner. I spread it out so it could get moisture. This area of Texas is hit and miss. We tend to have extremes, so I adjust the shape of the pile depending on the weather that week. 

I mostly keep it shorter so I can more easily toss buckets full of waste water mixed with veggie peelings onto it. I desperately need more carbon to add to the pile. Now that the rain has stopped I'm going to work on that.


----------



## Oswego

Got another load of sawdust/shavings this weekend. 6x12 trailer with 4'sides. It took two hours to get it pulling the trailer with the tractor and I unloaded it in three minutes by hooking chain up and pulling trailer out from under the load.


----------



## Forerunner

Apparently, I did show some particular tendency toward working smarter than hard, early in my career as a boy.

My old Pop used to tell me, "Son, you keep usin' yer brain with such blasted efficiency, yer never gunna have a physique !!!"


----------



## Cascade Failure

I saw this over on the Hearth and thought of you guys...

http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/scored-a-maple-tree-need-tips-n-tricks.124368/


----------



## Forerunner

I never did worry about the bar oil residuals in my homespun sawdust efforts.

As for those tough maple chunks he was dealing with, I just split them with the chainsaw and take those long, lofty shavings straight to the winter chicken nesting boxes, or use 'em for bedding.

A sharp saw can make split wood out of stubborn wood almost as quick as a maul can on the cooperative stuff.

Cutting _with_ the grain....ripping..... is the easiest on the saw and chain.


----------



## Allen W

Forerunner said:


> 4X8 trailer is just a short, but effective cardio-respiratory invigoration.
> 
> I recommend a standard-issue aluminum grain scoop.


If you need a more intense work out I've got a steel scoop around here some where.


----------



## Forerunner

I had one of those that my old grandpop gave me, somewhere in the early nineties.
Handle finally broke out of it. :sob:


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Forerunner, in your expert opinion, is this an ok thing to do or a big no-no?
I put some of my wood ashes from the fireplace insert on my compost piles.
I get about one and a half, 2gallon buckets per week.
Sometimes i just spread the directly on my garden plot, sometimes i dump them on my compost pile.

Note: lesson learned early this winter, I had a bucket of ash from the fireplace, I let it sit almost 2 days outside in the bucket before dumping it on the compost pile. 3 days later i noticed smoke coming from the pile, that night I could see some red glowing, so i went out, hooked up garden hose and started watering the pile while digging in it to try to get fire out.

After a couple of hours, it seemed to be out.

Three days later I got up in middle of the night and happened to look outside and the pile was blazing on fire.


So, now, all ashes have to cool for several days or there has to be a lot of rain or snow before ashes go on compost pile.


----------



## Forerunner

Expert opinion.





*giggle*






Well at least you didn't call me a professional. :facepalm:


Ashes are best spread directly, especially where you are going to plant legumes and other crops that love their sweeter soils.
Potatoes kinda hate ashes....and ash does drive nitrogen from the compost pile....kind of a chemical reaction there.

Incidentally, ashes with live coals remaining can be a fire hazard in a dryish compost pile. 




:whistlin:




.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Forerunner said:


> Expert opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ashes with live coals remaining can be a fire hazard in a dryish compost pile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :whistlin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Now you tell me.......


----------



## Allen W

Forerunner said:


> I had one of those that my old grandpop gave me, somewhere in the early nineties.
> Handle finally broke out of it. :sob:


They're good to lend, nobody wants to use them again so they bring them back.


----------



## am1too

Allen W said:


> They're good to lend, nobody wants to use them again so they bring them back.


I thought they were kept as souvenirs.


----------



## Studhauler

Still used at my house. I suppose the reason I still have a few of the old steel grain shovels, is that they don't break, when used for materials other than grain. 

(picture will be posted this weekend)


----------



## Shoestringer

I inherited a big old steel shovel. The handle had broken at some point so they slipped it into a full-length iron pipe and through-bolted it. 
Heavy as sin.

Might make a good deadfall trap.


----------



## bja105

I had a good day. I feel like my composting took a big step toward extremism today.

We had a thaw this week, so about half of the snow melted. The ground is still frozen under the top inch of soil. Today was the first day I could get my new tractor around without getting stuck in snow. I got some deer carcasses away from the dogs and under sawdust. I fed the horses and new calves round bales. I mucked the horses shed and put a few loads of fresh sawdust out. I turned last years pile, it looks ready. No recognizable horse parts, just bones. 

I bought feed and a new aluminum grain shovel! On the way back, my wife and I were discussing nitrogen sources, and I told her I would call the PA Game Commission, who have to dispose of a lot of road kill. We picked up my neighbor's sons at the hunter's safety course, and what was in the parking lot? A conservation Officer's truck, with two dead deer! After the class let out, I asked the guy what he was going to do with the deer, he said he has to drive an hour across the county to their 'deer pit.' The make a hole with a dozer, fill it with deer, and cover it with dirt. What a waste! He now knows where he can dump on this side of the county, and he delivered my first two donated dead animals! I started a new pile in the field near my sawdust source with the deer.

I also stated a new little pile in the garden with the horse shed muck and some waste hay, left overs the horses didn't eat. The new calves are in the garden, for now. They had half a bale from before, plus a new bale, but they ate the start of the new compost pile!

I also learned that my tractor's lights work well, and I can move sawdust in the dark.


----------



## Forerunner

:sob:

Oh, how I love happy endings !

*blows nose loudly on his crusty old kerchief.....then dabs his eyes roughly with the same*


I just got this huge soft spot fer when STATE officials are given enlightenment and actually run with it. 


















:sob:


----------



## Oswego

My "ready" pile will be used up this spring in the garden and raised beds so my thoughts have been more on my current "working" pile. It started out last summer as a truckload of wood chips from the City and takes longer to be a finished product so I have been looking to combine my chicken coop/run clean up project into my working pile. I believe mixing in the rich chicken poo into it will give that carbon all it needs to feed my micro herd and finish converting the pile into black gold. This is the pile that I had to use store bought Nitrogen (ammonia nitrate) to get it started because I at the time did not have a source of nitrogen. It got hot for several months but now its just warm with plenty of carbon left.
I have already started collecting sawdust/shavings for my next pile and if I do it quick and right it might get ready before the wood chip pile but space wise I have to wait until the ready pile is used so I'll have room in my "approved" (by Wife)area for compost.


----------



## DEKE01

Intransigent wives are compostable. 






Just saying, not recommending.


----------



## Forerunner

Some wives show their approval more creatively than others. :shrug:




I have been known to use that stubborn pile or portion of a pile for side dressing near heavy feeders, and cover that layer with straw or other mulch to keep the richer nutrients of the half-finished compost locked away from air and sun.

I've also been known to let a particularly stubborn pile sit longer than it needed to, just to show it a lesson. :heh:

Patience can be a rod of discipline to be wielded by the advanced composter.

Of course, so can a bulldozer. :whistlin:




don't compost yer wife, Os


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Looks like my composting may very well have just gotten a boost. I have been looking for a chipper shredder for a while, just tonight found a decent one online for sale.
I am going to pick it up tomorrow, if it works and is in good condition.

If all goes well, my brush/burn pile will now get some use. I also figure I can shred leaves in the fall for chicken coop bedding.


----------



## Forerunner

Let me or DEKE know when you come across a mint condition, reasonably-priced (under a grand would be great.... :shrug: ) tub grinder.

Morbark&#8482; or VermeerÂ® would be my preferences.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Yeah, wouldn't that be nice. I'm sure those are a bit out of my budget.


----------



## Forerunner

Me, too, DB......me, too.......


















:sob:






.


----------



## DEKE01

I was recently bored or dreaming, not sure which, and shopped on a heavy equipment site for tub grinders. For a mere $100K, I could drive 1000 miles to haul back a tub grinder that needed an overhaul that would cost 1000's more. That awoke me from the dream.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Let me or DEKE know when you come across a mint condition, reasonably-priced (under a grand would be great.... :shrug: ) tub grinder.
> 
> Morbarkâ¢ or VermeerÂ® would be my preferences.


Now that Purdy!


----------



## Forerunner

Well, on a far more humble note.....the local electric co-op dropped off two loads of woods chips this afternoon.


----------



## TJadeI

Quick question. I'm sure the answer is already in this thread somewhere but I don't have the time/desire/battery to search. 

Horse manure? Good to compost? Is it good for anything else? Or am I likely assuming a property with some very large piles of useless poo?

And by very large I'm talking multiple piles about the same size as a slug bug


----------



## Forerunner

Don't know what a slug bug is, but horse manure is good stuff.
If it has bedding material in it, consider it a stand alone compost composite.
In my experience, horse manure with bedding _usually_ needs a bit more water.....


----------



## TJadeI

Slug bug = vw beetle. (An old car) 

I don't know if it has bedding in it but I would assume so. It looks like someone took a tractor to the stalls in the barn and just shoved a couple years of build up into the pasture. 

Going to need to rent a tractor to move it and gain access to the barn... :/


----------



## dlskidmore

TJadeI said:


> very large piles of useless poo?


Never heard of such a thing. Some might need more composing than others, but never useless.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Well, looks like I'm not getting my chipper. Guy texted me today to reschedule for tomorrow, shortly after, he deleted his CL ad, and since then has refused to answer or return my calls and texts....go figure


----------



## dlskidmore

Opinions on composting indoors? I stopped composing new kitchen scraps when the path to the garden snowed in, but I've got an excess of deep bedding in the barn that I'm tempted to start a pile in a spare stall with.

Next year deep bedding gets cleaned out in the fall so it doesn't get this deep in winter.


----------



## Forerunner

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Well, looks like I'm not getting my chipper. Guy texted me today to reschedule for tomorrow, shortly after, he deleted his CL ad, and since then has refused to answer or return my calls and texts....go figure


Know the feeling.

Ah, well..... there will be a better one come along.:bored:



Diskid.....I have heaped up stall cleanings inside, out of the way, for winter. Doesn't hurt a thing if you've got the space, and on those really cold nights, the critters will pile around the heap for the heat.
A little extra straw layered next to the pile just for the critters, and they'll be remembering you on your birthday....


----------



## TJadeI

Forerunner... You said horse manure may need water... I'm in the PAC nw.... We are currently flooding. How much water could it need? I was out by it, didn't smell anything or notice any detectable heat... But it was also POURING rain (and thinking about it didn't notice any steam either) also from the looks of the rest of the property I'm going to guess they've been sitting there a good long while. Don't know for sure yet if we are going to pick up the property, but if we do, what do I do to get them a goin? They are certainly wet at thus point, and I will have to move them so they will inevitably get stirred. Anything else?


----------



## Forerunner

I was referring to stuff coming right out of the stall.

It's usually a little dry, cuz most horse owners are fussy that way.

Sounds like your piles have plenty moisture.

The same rule applies....moist but not wet.
Steam is your best indication that moisture is adequate AND not in excess......until, of course, the pile has finished working.


----------



## TJadeI

Well the piles most definitely still look like poo. Will have to see if I get the opportunity to move them and see what happens


----------



## Oswego

When you do move them check for moisture, mix it all up and put in one LARGE pile


----------



## JLMissouri

Forerunner that is awesome! I didn't see this post until it was mentioned on a separate thread. I thought I was the only crazy person filling my truck with organic material at the cities brush dumping ground. I found out they had piles of wood chips for free 12 years ago and have been hauling them back to my place since, although I think you beat me on size of operation. There is one city in my area that gives away free compost from the city slickers tree leaves and grass trimmings. I have hauled back three truck loads this week. Its gold


----------



## am1too

JLMissouri said:


> Forerunner that is awesome! I didn't see this post until it was mentioned on a separate thread. I thought I was the only crazy person filling my truck with organic material at the cities brush dumping ground. I found out they had piles of wood chips for free 12 years ago and have been hauling them back to my place since, although I think you beat me on size of operation. There is one city in my area that gives away free compost from the city slickers tree leaves and grass trimmings. I have hauled back three truck loads this week. Its gold


I pile all I want to drag home on a 16 foot trailer and haul it 25 miles home. It's cheaper and less time consuming than I can do it for. Right now I've got 8 loads out of this batch. The rows I get it from are 100 long and usually about 20 rows 5 foot high. They do 2 batches a year. I get wood chips there also.


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## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, JL. 


We were wondering when you'd jump over here with the folks who take their compost seriously. 


My eldest and I have been hauling steadily from the local sale barn.
Most years, by this time, the material and hauling conditions are kinda nasty, for the excess moisture and freeze/thaw cycles.
This year, the weather, and the uncharacteristically higher carbon content of the material are making for some better piles and gentler hauling conditions.

We've got three small mountains slowly building..... all piled right on top of where they will be spread...... the intense green and markedly more robust growth of the grass and clover where the last mountains were built (not spread....BUILT) serving as a constant reminder of the wisdom of that practice.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Drove past our county recycling place yesterday, they have several very large piles of chippings out in the yard. I have been working on a 16 foot trailer lately, new floor, wiring, etc. By tomorrow I should have it done, including side walls, meaning.g I will be making some trips to the recycling yard.


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## Forerunner

More chipths !!! 


:grin:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYiCPmwOV4A[/ame]


They dropped me off another load yesterday.

Get 'em while they're hot.......


----------



## biggkidd

Hope you extremists don't mind a slightly off topic question.

We recently got some chicks (31). Along with the chicks some fine wood chips for bedding. Now we have a small bit of manure & chips. My question is can I use those along with some water and or pee to make a manure type compost tea for the seedlings I am going to be starting soon? What else if anything needs to be added? I have also been saving all my wood stove ashes and keeping them dry. 

I hope to find somewhere to get manure this spring to start making compost in earnest. If I can ever get my road to dry enough to get my stake body truck down it. I have all the wood chips needed as there is a tree service lot where they dump chips less than two miles from me. They said I can have all I can handle.

Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to give.

Larry


----------



## dlskidmore

biggkidd said:


> We recently got some chicks (31). Along with the chicks some fine wood chips for bedding. Now we have a small bit of manure & chips. My question is can I use those along with some water and or pee to make a manure type compost tea for the seedlings I am going to be starting soon? What else if anything needs to be added?


I wouldn't think that is enough manure to be a nitrogen burn issue, you kept enough bedding in there too keep the animals clean? I'd use it as mulch between the rows and let mother nature do the tea making when it rains if I didn't have room to rot it down properly first. If I did have room I'd rot it down first, get the wood to absorb that nitrogen and turn it into slow release fertilizer.


----------



## biggkidd

Thank you for your reply. Yes they have plenty of bedding. I am getting ready to start several flats of tomatoes, peppers and such. So I am looking for a liquid to use when watering. Unless you think I should just mix it in the medium. I have always used 10-10-10 or miracle grow. Going to try and grow all natural from now on. That's why I ask.

Thanks
Larry


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## dlskidmore

If you have room start a pile and use fertilizer one more year. Then use the rotted stuff as your growing medium next year.


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## Forerunner

Just be sure that tea is really light colored, at first, and get a feel for what the seedlings want.

Water from the bottom, while you're at it.
If you splash manure tea, even water....on the uppers of seedlings, they can get all kinds of miserable looking and die.

I keep my seedling trays in a waterproof tray and water from the bottom tray, allowing the liquid to gently surround the roots without touching the above-ground plant portions.

WEAK tea, to start.


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## Cascade Failure

I have started bringing home the coffee grounds from work. Nothing extreme, a couple of 5 gallon buckets a day. They had previously been spoken for but that person no longer wants them.


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## Forerunner

Have you got any sort of worm farm going on, Cascade ?


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## Cascade Failure

Just the ones that crawl into the piles.


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## Forerunner

You're in good company.


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## biggkidd

Thanks everyone! 

Diskidmore 

This is a brand new garden space in fact I'm still cleaning it up. It was timberland last year. So I would rather not use chemicals. I have about 3-4 medium size loads of manure from a friend to bring in and work into the soil. Right now everything is waiting on drier weather as my road is 4 wheel drive only at the moment. My hauling truck is of course a 2wd . 

I do have enough room to build a pile or three and as soon as my road dries enough I plan to start. We've had over a year of heavier than normal rain and snow about two years worth in one. 

Larry

PS I always water seedlings from the bottom forerunner. Thanks :clap:


----------



## am1too

biggkidd said:


> Hope you extremists don't mind a slightly off topic question.
> 
> We recently got some chicks (31). Along with the chicks some fine wood chips for bedding. Now we have a small bit of manure & chips. My question is can I use those along with some water and or pee to make a manure type compost tea for the seedlings I am going to be starting soon? What else if anything needs to be added? I have also been saving all my wood stove ashes and keeping them dry.
> 
> I hope to find somewhere to get manure this spring to start making compost in earnest. If I can ever get my road to dry enough to get my stake body truck down it. I have all the wood chips needed as there is a tree service lot where they dump chips less than two miles from me. They said I can have all I can handle.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to give.
> 
> Larry


I'm jealous and green with envy. Wish I could find something that close.


----------



## dlskidmore

biggkidd said:


> I do have enough room to build a pile or three and as soon as my road dries enough I plan to start.


I hope your place is drier than mine, I'd never get the garden started in time if I waited for it to be dry enough to drive on.


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## biggkidd

Haha we've got water running out every step you take. I have a jeep with 6" lift and 33" mud terrain tires and its dragging going in and out the road. Might do better if I drove in the garden space. ound:

Larry


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## TJadeI

Sort of off topic. I've been experimenting with "moveable" garden planters. Perhaps something that would start off the ground during our flood season maybe even in a greenhouse for starters then move them outside once things dry out a bit. Playing with building something on pallets that can be moved with a forklift. due to the heavy rains/flooding we are really limited to what can be started outside in the spring. And transplanting has its own issues. Do you guys think my thought might work? I'm mostly thinking about produce that doesn't like to be transplanted. I'm pretty new to gardening and seem to kill 50% of what I plant as is. Then transplanting I've had seasons that I end up with a total loss.

My goal is least trauma possible to the plants/seedlings. Its rather depressing to put all that work into a garden and end up with only enough usable produce to feed my family for a day or two and still be forced to go to the grocery store or farmers markets.


----------



## TJadeI

Cascade Failure said:


> I have started bringing home the coffee grounds from work. Nothing extreme, a couple of 5 gallon buckets a day. They had previously been spoken for but that person no longer wants them.


Holy smokes 2; 5 gallon buckets a day? Where do you work? And that's not extreme? My husband has a fit when I bring home 55gallons of wvo a week from work. Even though I process it into biodiesel and soap almost immediately.


----------



## Cascade Failure

TJadeI said:


> Holy smokes 2; 5 gallon buckets a day? Where do you work? And that's not extreme? My husband has a fit when I bring home 55gallons of wvo a week from work. Even though I process it into biodiesel and soap almost immediately.


I work at a hospital. While I value the score, with the guys around this thread I would have to bring home a truck a day to be extreme.


----------



## am1too

TJadeI said:


> Sort of off topic. I've been experimenting with "moveable" garden planters. Perhaps something that would start off the ground during our flood season maybe even in a greenhouse for starters then move them outside once things dry out a bit. Playing with building something on pallets that can be moved with a forklift. due to the heavy rains/flooding we are really limited to what can be started outside in the spring. And transplanting has its own issues. Do you guys think my thought might work? I'm mostly thinking about produce that doesn't like to be transplanted. I'm pretty new to gardening and seem to kill 50% of what I plant as is. Then transplanting I've had seasons that I end up with a total loss.
> 
> My goal is least trauma possible to the plants/seedlings. Its rather depressing to put all that work into a garden and end up with only enough usable produce to feed my family for a day or two and still be forced to go to the grocery store or farmers markets.


I'd use newspaper pots or soil blocks which are cheaper than peat pots. That way there is no root disturbance.


----------



## DEKE01

TJadeI said:


> Sort of off topic. I've been experimenting with "moveable" garden planters. Perhaps something that would start off the ground during our flood season maybe even in a greenhouse for starters then move them outside once things dry out a bit. Playing with building something on pallets that can be moved with a forklift. due to the heavy rains/flooding we are really limited to what can be started outside in the spring. And transplanting has its own issues. Do you guys think my thought might work? I'm mostly thinking about produce that doesn't like to be transplanted. I'm pretty new to gardening and seem to kill 50% of what I plant as is. Then transplanting I've had seasons that I end up with a total loss.
> 
> My goal is least trauma possible to the plants/seedlings. Its rather depressing to put all that work into a garden and end up with only enough usable produce to feed my family for a day or two and still be forced to go to the grocery store or farmers markets.


Assuming your forklift is a tractor with forks, I would think that big, deep planters on skids would be better, easier to manage, but that's a guess. 

My concern is that in a garden, roots on many plants go very deep. I was surprised to learn that tomatoes can send roots 8 ft deep. Of course, maters will produce with more confined roots, but limit the roots and you most likely are limiting production. Maters transplant easily. So maybe the easy transplants just do in pots, and the hard to transplants you do in your boxes. 

I don't have any science to cite to back this up, just an observation. Soil in pots and planters tends to get much heavier than good garden soil. It needs to be lightened with perlite (which I don't like to buy), or fine chips, or half finished compost, or something similar. If you are starting with soil that has a lot of clay, add sand to loosen it up. 

I just purchased fruit trees from a local nursery and they use 100% half finished compost and have an extreme pile going to keep them supplied. It looked to be 6 ft high, and about 50' x 50'. Their system appears to be they fill pots from the front and add new material to the back, so the pile must slowly crawl across the field. Not a bad idea as the worms would naturally move towards the newer material.


----------



## DEKE01

Ready made natural compost. I have a couple of dry ponds on the farm. This one had wild pigs rooting in a hole 2 years ago, but that dried up and they moved on. It became nothing but a field of brambles. So brambles were pushed aside, and about quarter acre of peat, 6 - 18 inches deep, became this pile which is getting moved to the orchard. Based on what I've already loaded with a 1 yard loader, it appears to be about 150 cu-yards. 

The fellow in the photos is my neighbor.


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## TJadeI

DEKE01 said:


> Assuming your forklift is a tractor with forks, I would think that big, deep planters on skids would be better, easier to manage, but that's a guess.


Any idea what something like that might look like?



DEKE01 said:


> My concern is that in a garden, roots on many plants go very deep. I was surprised to learn that tomatoes can send roots 8 ft deep. Of course, maters will produce with more confined roots, but limit the roots and you most likely are limiting production. Maters transplant easily. So maybe the easy transplants just do in pots, and the hard to transplants you do in your boxes.


Thankfully I've not had any issues with tomatoes. it's more the ground covering plants I have issues with, squash, cucumbers, bell peppers etc....



DEKE01 said:


> I don't have any science to cite to back this up, just an observation. Soil in pots and planters tends to get much heavier than good garden soil. It needs to be lightened with perlite (which I don't like to buy), or fine chips, or half finished compost, or something similar. If you are starting with soil that has a lot of clay, add sand to loosen it up.


I've only ever used the black gold compost that we get from our own compost piles, should I be using something else?


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## DEKE01

Skids - I've seen folks build small barns/sheds or chicken coops on 2x8 PT, flat side to the ground and the tow end cut off at a 45 angle so that it doesn't dig end. I've never gone that big, but have done something similar and used the 3pt hitch to take the weight off the front end as I towed. 

Your compost is probably perfect. If you have used it in pots before, take a look and see if it is packing down real tight or if it is remaining loose. Loose is better.


----------



## Gaea Star

Following you guys I feel like I might be able to get the compost right. Now I just need to learn to keep the plants alive better in my high desert climate.


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## dablack

Need some ideas. About three months back, I cut a bunch of trees down to mill into lumber for the rebuild (house burned down back in July). I have my little 26hp kubota with a FEL and a 6" chipper. I have chipped up all the branches that are smaller than 6" but I still have tons of tree tops, big limbs, and other junk. It is really a mess and I'm sick of it. I looked into renting a big chipper but the only thing I can find is 12" and is $350 a day and would cost another $50 in gas to go get. If it could cut everything then it would be worth it but half the stuff is over 12" and very knotty. I'm thinking that I'm just going to burn it. Momma isn't happy seeing it and to be real, neither am I. Just looks like a big mess out there. I've put an ochard where the pines used to be and it will end up being a great place but right now it is a mess. 

Thoughts?

thanks
Austin


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## dlskidmore

Bury it in nitrogen rich compost. Let it rot down. Plant something pretty in top to please the Mrs. In a few years you can level the pile and the wood will be rotted and fragile if not gone.


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## dablack

Rich compost is a great idea but I have none. What I have on hand is tons of carbon. I'm not saying, carbon is a bad thing to have around but nitrogen rich is something that I long for....

I would love to put all this stuff in a hole or something but it is just too much.


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## dlskidmore

No dairy farms or chicken fans around to beg some manure from? The classic stump burning technique is to still it full of holes and put nitrogen fertilizer down the holes, but I'm not sure that is viable at your scale. If leaving it, chipping it, and rotting it are not options, what about burning it? Might need a permit where you live.


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## dablack

Yeah, the cost for a load of chicken manure would probably be the same cost as the chipper. Plus, I don't think momma would go for that either. She like finished compost but doesn't like making it next to the house build. I've got a little ditch near by and I'm going to shove as much of it as possible in there and then I guess I will burn the rest. 

I just hate to "waste" it.


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## bja105

I didn't get much done this weekend, since I broke my loader tractor. I tried to replace the tire stem, but it broke and spewed Calcium Chloride all over. Nothing a visit from the tire truck and a bunch of money can't fix. I am sad because I had a three day weekend, and instead of hauling sawdust, I broke the tractor, had to feed a round bale by hand. Then I had to dig frozen ground to find my septic tank, which wasn't backed up. Turns out my clean out tee was frozen. Now I am home with four sick little boys, all throwing up.

The good news, the PA Game commission brought me five more dead deer.
View attachment 24675


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## DEKE01

dablack said:


> Need some ideas. About three months back, I cut a bunch of trees down to mill into lumber for the rebuild (house burned down back in July). I have my little 26hp kubota with a FEL and a 6" chipper. I have chipped up all the branches that are smaller than 6" but I still have tons of tree tops, big limbs, and other junk. It is really a mess and I'm sick of it. I looked into renting a big chipper but the only thing I can find is 12" and is $350 a day and would cost another $50 in gas to go get. If it could cut everything then it would be worth it but half the stuff is over 12" and very knotty. I'm thinking that I'm just going to burn it. Momma isn't happy seeing it and to be real, neither am I. Just looks like a big mess out there. I've put an ochard where the pines used to be and it will end up being a great place but right now it is a mess.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> thanks
> Austin


My composting efforts result from the same situation; we logged about 50% of the trees and I had more slash than I knew what to do with. I chipped tons of it, but that takes a LOOOOOOOOOONG time. I had two 4 acre sections that were a continuous mat, 2 - 5 ft deep, in tightly packed slash. I ended up burning most of it were I will have a horse pasture. Once the fire got burning hot, I buried the pile in soil (I have sand) and let the piles cook, sometimes for 3 weeks. That gave me lots of charcoal to spread and add fertility back to the pasture. A year after, you can still see the char in the soil and the pasture is very productive except for the fact that wild hogs keep tearing it up. 

The other area, I didn't burn. I kept working at the slash to move it to tighter, deeper piles, but they were not decomposing very fast. Then at the suggestion of someone in this thread, I added soil on top and just a few months later I can see the piles getting tighter, smaller, and limbs I pull out are rotting. I figure another year and those piles will be good compost. But that may not help you if you don't want to see any piles.


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## dablack

DEKE01 said:


> The other area, I didn't burn. I kept working at the slash to move it to tighter, deeper piles, but they were not decomposing very fast. Then at the suggestion of someone in this thread, I added soil on top and just a few months later I can see the piles getting tighter, smaller, and limbs I pull out are rotting. I figure another year and those piles will be good compost. But that may not help you if you don't want to see any piles.


That is a great idea. I remember reading that. We cut in two areas on the property. To the north and west of the slab (where the fruit orchard and garden are going in) and then on the far side of the property (where the nut orchard is going in). On the far side of the property, I can chip what I can, then pile the rest with some dirt on top. She isn't as concerned over there (out of sight, out of mind). 

Austin


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## unregistered41671

After going out and doing a little communing with the piles this AM, I decided to turn them with my skid steer. After the skid steer bucket was over my head, I could feel the heat wave up and into my face. Sure is a good feeling.


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## Forerunner

I'll bet it smelled good, too, eh Possum ?



Nothing like the raw, earthen smell of working compost.


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## unregistered41671

Yep FR, I forgot to mention that. It did smell good.


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## myheaven

Tree service was down the road taking down several trees. Dumped it all at the end of my road. Guess who's getting mulch this weekend !


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## crabtree

Power Co. spray young trees, so they will not have to cut them later.
Can get sawdust from the mill, but that cost a fee.
I still get the coffee waste for the cost of hauling it.


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## DEKE01

I found an add on a local classified website, wanted his horse manure hauled away and he would load it. He filled my 11 cu yd trailer in 45 minutes (small tractor) and it used up only about a quarter of his pile so I'm going back for more and he promises to get a larger tractor from a neighbor next time. My garden is going to be happy.


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## Shoestringer

Looking over some of the posts on this thread, I see references to composting deadstock and deer. Makes me wonder about the effectiveness of composting in destroying prions from scrapie or BSE. Found some references online like this: http://www.beefresearch.ca/factsheet.cfm/can-composting-destroy-bse-prions-49
They are hard to destroy, but I like the addition of feathers and hooves to encourage bacteria which break down tougher material like keratin. We follow protocols to keep prions out of rendering facilities at my work and it just got me thinking...


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## Forerunner

Upon reading the article, I'd have to say........


Chalk up one more high end benefit to be attributed to the "unnatural" as it has been called, process of thermophilic composting over landfilling, etc....


99.9% elimination is acceptable.


I did read that variations in composting process, batch per batch, can allow for exceptions, and that the possibility still exists for survival of the prion....

Sounds like weed seeds and other known pathogens..... though composting does not guarantee a 100% kill, the process still outperforms all other comers available to the 
steward of Earth.....


Thanks for the article, Shoestringer.


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## Oswego

I found this and stored it in my computer but did not stored where it came from other than that it was about compost.
The air-filed porosity test would let you know how long between turns because you would know if you had a little or lot of oxygen. Moisture and temp would have to be used also for when to turn.



*How to measure pile bulk density and air-filled porosity​*First determine *bulk density *(the weight per unit volume of your combined​feedstocks). Weigh the container (5 gallon bucket) empty. Add material 1/3 full, tap
the bucket five times on a flat hard surface, add another 1/3 of material, tap five
times again, then fill to top without tapping. Weigh filled bucket and record.
Determine bulk density using the calculations below.
Material measured Example
1. Weight of bucket with material (lb) 20.5
2. Weight of empty bucket 2.0
3. Weight of material (line 1- line 2) 18.5​4. *Bulk density (lbs/cubic yards)*= 740​(line 3 X 40).
Note: this conversion factor only works for a 5-gallon bucket.
Take the full bucket with material and fill with water. Use the spreadsheet​below to calculate *air-filled porosity (%)*.​Material measured Example
1. Weight of bucket with
material + water (lb) 46.5
2. Weight of bucket with
material (from line 1 in bulk density table) 20.5
3. Weight of water (line 1- line 2) 26​4. *% air-filled porosity *= 62%​(line 3 X 2.4)


----------



## Shoestringer

It is an encouraging study. I am looking forward to getting my pile going. Just a little more thaw, please!

Regarding aeration I had another idea. I will be piling by hand with fork and shovel. I figure that if I have branches and brush on the bottom of the pile it will help bring air in underneath. If I then build a narrow tripod of sticks up the center and pile around it, won't that help to move things along? 

Seems anathema to fill a nice compost pile with PVC pipes...

Maybe I am overthinking aeration. I will be including thick layers of straw. There might be enough air in there anyway.


----------



## Forerunner

The theory seems to be.....the coarser the carbon material, the more air(oxygen) that will be trapped for decomposition.

Straw...wood chips be excellent for aeration.

But my sawdust-based piles cook down to musky black with no turning.....


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## Oswego

I'm sure even sawdust has voids to trap some air and you have to realize they are about bite size pieces for your microbe army.


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## Cascade Failure

1st time ever...my pile is steaming!


----------



## palm farmer

I am looking for a smaller ground driven manure spreader anybody have any input on these? brands that are good bad or in between ??


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## Forerunner

Don't be sniffin' them steam fumes, Cascade...... they'll make yuh goofy. :buds:



On the ground-driven spreaders.......keep 'em well lubricated wherever you can.......


----------



## Oswego

I came across an acre of finely ground egg shells 4 ft high. Its for the taking but not in small quantities. If he has to meet someone there to unlock gate etc then he wants them to take at least a dump truck load or more each time.
Would it be worth it to pay for the hauling, about 30 miles, to have a pile to add to piles.


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## myheaven

Qswego is your deficient in calcium? If it is eggs shells are wonderful fertilizer. I save mine all winter to either give to the chickens or add to the garden. See I could use it on my pasture. We are void of calcium here.


----------



## Forerunner

Oswego said:


> I came across an acre of finely ground egg shells 4 ft high. Its for the taking but not in small quantities. If he has to meet someone there to unlock gate etc then he wants them to take at least a dump truck load or more each time.
> Would it be worth it to pay for the hauling, about 30 miles, to have a pile to add to piles.







That's a lot a eggshells!!

I'd spread em like lime if my soil needed sweetening.

They wouldn't need to go through the piles.

Any odor in remaining that you can detect ?


----------



## Oswego

They came from an egg factory that makes dried eggs. A man rented some land and had them hauled to it for a long time, don't know what his intentions were. He quit paying rent on the land, moved on, and the landowner wants them gone. They are finely ground. The top 6 inches has crusted over and underneath the crust it looks like dry white beach sand.

I know I could have one pile for calcium supplement for my chickens and I know i spread out in acid soil it will go to neutral but not past neutral. Looking for benefits of adding to compost is it worth the expense to pay to have some hauled.
I did read where it was good to add to worm beds it said worms have a stomach like a bird and use some grit to grind up what they eat and they love to munch on eggshells.

What PH do the microbes in compost like? Maybe use it to add after compost has finished or like FR said, spread in acid soil that needs to be less acid.


----------



## Forerunner

The worm bed idea might be a good one.....feed 'em a little at a time.

Using them for chicken grit/calcium supplement would be a win/win.

If the grindings underneath that crust are bleach white, the more reason not to put much in the piles. Calcium and nitrogen don't play well together.....

But.....if it was me, I'd have several tandem truck loads, at least, dumped in an out of the way place to draw upon for years.....

I would also use the stuff as a side dress in the garden for plants that are into that sort of pH enhancement.


----------



## Oswego

I think I will check on a 40 yard roll off dumpster, have it offloaded and picked up when I fill it up with tractor. Have it dumped on my property to use for a while. 

It might could even be used in my fish pond if water is too acidic.

With all those uses maybe I should get two dumpster loads.

I bet the deer would come to it to munch on also.


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## Forerunner

The stuff certainly has value, and multiple purposes.

I don't see how you could go wrong taking in a quantity, 'specially if you've got the space......


----------



## Allen W

Oswego said:


> I came across an acre of finely ground egg shells 4 ft high. Its for the taking but not in small quantities. If he has to meet someone there to unlock gate etc then he wants them to take at least a dump truck load or more each time.
> Would it be worth it to pay for the hauling, about 30 miles, to have a pile to add to piles.


I wish that was close to me I have some ground that could use it.


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## Oswego

I have not had time to pursue the chicken egg score but I did get my working pile turned yesterday, added a few items and piled it back up again.

Just posting to unstick the thread, seems to get stuck for a week with no posts every now and then


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## Forerunner

This thread is like a quality-constructed compost pile.

It can sit unmolested for lengths of time and just improve with age. :shrug:


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## Dixie Bee Acres

You say calcium and nitrogen aren't good play mates?
I have been throwing egg shells on my compost pile, is that not a good idea?


----------



## Forerunner

I doubt anyone would turn you in for it......but you'd do better to crush those shells and give them back to the chickens.....or sprinkle them around your legumes/fruit trees, grapes, etc.

Eggshells will break down in the compost, kinda.... and you'd never notice a difference, but the scientific compost gurus recommend against any overt matrimonial relationship between calcium and nitrogen (kinda like throwin' a Taurus and a Scorpio in a boxing ring).

Now the question might be... "What if I already have too much N in the pile ?"


:shrug:


----------



## DEKE01

I think egg shells in the compost is just fine in any normal amounts a household is going to generate. When I was composting on a suburban lot, all my egg shells ended up as worm food in the garden. I didn't grind them up, but they always disappeared. All things - of plant or animal origin - in moderation is a pretty darn good rule for composting. 

I agree with FR's comment on scientific gurus. There exists some mathematical formula for making perfect compost in an optimum time to produce the optimum balance of NPK and micro nutrients. But as it applies to those of us who want to improve our soil, IMO, it is a big so what. You have to go way crazy with some particular feedstock to upset the natural processes of composting in a big way or to produce compost that isn't going to be good for your soil over the long run. Too much or too little water is going to be a typical concern for most composters. Too much calcium, probably not. 

Oswego found 4 acre feet of egg shells and that is certainly a different story unless he has scores of acre feet of compostables to mix with it. If I had access to that much egg shell, I would mix it with dumper loads of peat, sludge, and what ever seed I wanted to broadcast. Then spread it with a lime spreader over my fields.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Hey Forerunner, I saw this and thought of you.

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/grd/4404575972.html


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, yum........ reasonably priced, too.


----------



## palm farmer

got a wild hair to expand the pile a bit


----------



## Shoestringer

Alright, it is finally Springy enough to get new piles going. I have been doing a little reading up and gone over this thread. The favourite method here seems to involve large piles, not necessarily of layered materials, usually an animal carcass, and turning only if necessary but probably with a front end loader.
What is your real practical experience? I own a fork and shovel (I know many started that way). Lots of carbon in old straw, hay and winter bedding pack, and some cold composted material from last year to incorporate. 
In other reading, I find people recommend piles about 3-5 feet cubed. Also, turning every 2-7 days, depending on the source. That sounds like work to me, but I will be happy to do it if it works.
I have only cold (or warm, at best) composted before but have gardens to build and land to improve now, so I want to get off on the right foot.


----------



## Forerunner

Mix your materials well, whatever they be, in the initial piling.

There are several pile constructions that are tried and true.

The enclosed compost pile, bordered with wood, earth, strawbales, concrete, etc.;

The long windrow of eight to ten feet height and width....or of greater dimension if you've the equipment;

Or, large conical piles, which reduce air and sun exposure in arid and hot climates where you'd want to conserve moisture and prevent leaching of nitrogen.

I use all three, and, so long as there is initial heating and a general C/N balance, not too dry or wet, you'll have useable compost in 6 months and great compost in 12....


----------



## Shoestringer

This is without regular turning, correct? I can build quite a large pile, if I don't have to move it around so much. I could likely work up a pile about 7' high by 7' deep and 36' long, up against my barn foundation wall, on the western side.


----------



## Forerunner

You shouldn't have to turn a good, working pile until time to apply, unless you really want to be a purist, turning the uncomposted shell in for weed seed and pathogen elimination.


----------



## TxGypsy

Anybody have any experience with composting poison oak? I think some got mixed in today.....


----------



## Forerunner

You put poison oak in your compost pile ?!! 


I recommend Calamine&#8482; lotion....... Your microbes will thank you......as soon as they finish scratching......


:whistlin:


----------



## COWS

Eventually poison ivy will decay. I suggest doing minimum turning with a long handled shovel or fork and covering it soon and leave it for nature to take its course. When you use it again use a long handled shovel.

COWS


----------



## bja105

I have decided that I need either a dump truck or a dump trailer for my composting. I can't find many used dump trailers, and I can buy a very used dump truck for the price of a new dump trailer. I am leaning toward a dump truck.

Is there anything special to look for or avoid? 
Thanks


----------



## Forerunner

Dump truck.

Hmmm.

Diesel is your friend.

A little old single axle International with a DT466 would be killer.

Were you thinking heavy duty or more something along the lines of one ton dually ?


----------



## bja105

I am thinking one ton dually. Should I be thinking bigger? I know I can fix the one ton, never worked on anything big. Plus, the one ton seems easier to maneuver in my sawmills.

I have my cousin the used car dealer looking at the auctions. As usual he said "you should have told me last week, I just saw one go for peanuts."

I will be loading it with this.
View attachment 27411


----------



## Forerunner

A solid one ton dually, with dump, will be like ten three quarter tons driven by men with pitch forks to load and unload.....maybe more like 20

I'd still look for a good diesel tonner....


----------



## Oswego

I would think the taxes, tag and insurance on a truck vs trailer would convince me to keep looking for a trailer


----------



## DEKE01

Oswego said:


> I would think the taxes, tag and insurance on a truck vs trailer would convince me to keep looking for a trailer


Agreed. I wanted a full size dump truck but there was no way I could justify the upkeep.


----------



## myheaven

Just received a letter from the power company. They will be taking down trees in our area. I squealed with glee. More mulch! Going to call the number for questions and see if they will drop all the chips an wood here?! Can't hurt to ask!


----------



## elkhound

myheaven said:


> Just received a letter from the power company. They will be taking down trees in our area. I squealed with glee. More mulch! Going to call the number for questions and see if they will drop all the chips an wood here?! Can't hurt to ask!


mtn dew dropped off at job site on hot days really helps....


----------



## Studhauler

myheaven said:


> Just received a letter from the power company. They will be taking down trees in our area. I squealed with glee. More mulch! Going to call the number for questions and see if they will drop all the chips an wood here?! Can't hurt to ask!


As Elkhound has mentioned, I have also found that going directly to the workers, and bypassing the office gets the results you are looking for.


----------



## dlskidmore

Studhauler said:


> As Elkhound has mentioned, I have also found that going directly to the workers, and bypassing the office gets the results you are looking for.


I've had the reverse work as well. For my Girl Scout Gold award project I'd talked to the highway department superintendent about sending out men to pick up the trash after the cleanup. We didn't get a ton of volunteers, and there was some special trash day for the town, so we figured we'd save the men the effort and bring in the trash ourselves. The men tried to charge us to take it, and so I just told Dad to put everything back in the van and we'd call the superintendent to send some a crew out to pick it up as originally planned. Suddenly those men decided of course no there was no charge for a Girl Scout service project.


----------



## myheaven

elkhound said:


> mtn dew dropped off at job site on hot days really helps....


Well here it's going to be hot cocoa and coffee. It's just blasted cold. Trust me if I can find the crew. I will be asking and giving drinks and snacks. I have done this before. :happy:


----------



## crabtree

I use gypsum with my magnesium & coffee chaff.
Never had a problem, I read a lot of you can not or should not,about things farmer & gardener have done for years.
So I think the context & type of soil, the amount of each mineral is left out of the text sometime make things seem the same when they are not.


----------



## elkhound

a rotted pile


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## jnkgal

This is my favorite in this forum. its still growing since I have been here last


----------



## calfisher

Compost pile screened off, spread out about 10 inches deep and ready to plant. I use the fines to build a base around new plantings. Those tomatoes are about 9 ft tall and over wintered from last year. Its going to be a great garden this year.


----------



## myheaven

I have to get pictures of my piles. We combine the two that are done. Started a new one. Biggest one yet. Dh is really getting into it. I have to show my garden soil before and after pictures. I just have to find the time.


----------



## gimpyrancher

I recently bought a John Deere 210LE tractor. It's a 75HP 4x4 skip loader with a very strong box scraper. Also bought a 14' 14K gooseneck hydraulic dump trailer about 6 months ago. I found an ad on Craigslist last week for free horse manure at a horse farm. So this weekend I hauled 9 loads (about 60 cu yards of manure to my place. I have a few small mountains of very nice mostly fresh hot horse manure. Now I get to start making my light grey dust into a more organic based soil.

Since reading through this entire subject, I have been dreaming of a large compost pile. Now I have to get to work and stack the 9 loads into one giant mound and let it cook.

I am so excited to get working on cleaning up an overgrown property, mostly small trees and dead fall and creating a park like setting for us.

As soon as practical, I promise some pictures. I hope to have more to share in the coming weeks. Well, not that soon. I have to wait for my daughter to finish this semester at college and she'll be leaving home to live on campus at the university (SOU) and then we'll be able to get to our property 4-5 times a week after she moves out. Then the fun really gets going.


----------



## TripleD

It never ceases to amaze me after being here for over 3yrs I still get a duh-huh moment. I read about the first 20 and last 20 pages here. Thanks Forerunner !!!

I got a good story to tell. About 10 years ago we were getting a new China-Mart built close by. They brought in a tub grinder and chipped up everything. My BIL asked them what were they doing with the chips? They said going to the landfill unless he wanted them. He had them bring over 50 tractor trailor loads to a spot on the farm.

His master plan was to sell them for mulch since he already had the truck,trailor and tractor. He piled them up nice and high but said there was too much dirt mixed in. Then they started steaming. It looked like a bunch of small volcanoes. He would pour the water to them and they still steamed. He kept turning them with his tractor for months. He said they were rotting faster than the dirt was comming out.

He finally gave up on his plans and called his buddy to bring his D5 over and flatten it all out. When he left there was a pad over 100ft wide 300ft long and 4ft high. After finding this sticky yesterday I took my tractor over there and dug up some of the blackest dirt I have ever seen. Its going into the garden starting today....


----------



## Forerunner

Darn straight it's going in the gardens, today.

Xcellent windfall......

We were wonderin' when you'd show up in here....... :indif:


----------



## Homesteader

Forerunner: Today, we shoveled the first compost we ever made (inspired by you as I shared a few months ago). It is going first on the maters and then to everything else as a top dressing (we only have a 7" tall by 5 foot by about 5 foot "section" of compost so I will use a little on everyone.

Thank You.


----------



## Forerunner

I'd post some pitchers, but all I got is gargantuan mountains of winter stockpilings and a few rows of onions...... at the moment. I guess there are the blossoming fruit trees.....


Nice to see the enthusiasm of late, all the same. :thumb:


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Had a neighboring farmer offer me several truckloads of cow manure. Looks like my small compost pile will be growing.
Everything from last years pile was spread on the garden just before tilling.


----------



## myheaven

TripleD said:


> It never ceases to amaze me after being here for over 3yrs I still get a duh-huh moment. I read about the first 20 and last 20 pages here. Thanks Forerunner !!!
> 
> I got a good story to tell. About 10 years ago we were getting a new China-Mart built close by. They brought in a tub grinder and chipped up everything. My BIL asked them what were they doing with the chips? They said going to the landfill unless he wanted them. He had them bring over 50 tractor trailor loads to a spot on the farm.
> 
> His master plan was to sell them for mulch since he already had the truck,trailor and tractor. He piled them up nice and high but said there was too much dirt mixed in. Then they started steaming. It looked like a bunch of small volcanoes. He would pour the water to them and they still steamed. He kept turning them with his tractor for months. He said they were rotting faster than the dirt was comming out.
> 
> He finally gave up on his plans and called his buddy to bring his D5 over and flatten it all out. When he left there was a pad over 100ft wide 300ft long and 4ft high. After finding this sticky yesterday I took my tractor over there and dug up some of the blackest dirt I have ever seen. Its going into the garden starting today....


Some people have all the luck.!!!! I swear.


----------



## mistymountain

Momk
K


----------



## mistymountain

I mom
O


----------



## Forerunner

mistymountain said:


> Momk
> K





mistymountain said:


> I mom
> O



I get it.....you're speaking in code ! :bouncy:

Any chance we could get the decipher manual ? :huh:


----------



## katy

Forerunner said:


> I get it.....you're speaking in code ! :bouncy:
> 
> Any chance we could get the decipher manual ? :huh:


FORERUNNER, HELP......

Our wood chip piles are now two years old, starting 3rd summer. I would like 
to till lightly and use some of it, but will that damage the worm population ?
About half a dozen worms per shovel full, that's better than none.

I can only do about 10 minutes with that shovel, lol

What is wrong with this thread ? I can't access the last page of 111, no 

matter what I do..... can't even read it !!!!!!:flame:


----------



## Forerunner

Every now and then, I find that I have to sacrifice some worms in the tilling process.

I justify it all, in my mind, by considering all the nitrogen those busted up, mutilated and humiliated little rotting worms will provide the soil.

:facepalm:


----------



## Freya

Tim I think you deserve a trophy of some sort... this thread has OVER a quarter of a MILLION views!!!! :shocked:

:rock:


----------



## Connor

Black Gold


----------



## Cascade Failure

Freya said:


> Tim I think you deserve a trophy of some sort...


Don't bother...he'll just see how long it would last in one of his piles.


----------



## dlskidmore

Cascade Failure said:


> Don't bother...he'll just see how long it would last in one of his piles.


Well, maybe if you soak it in saltwater first it will corrode, and serve as a mineral boost to the pile.


----------



## Forerunner

Could I just go with a big bowl of ice cream ?


----------



## aweegato

I have two pet rats and I was wondering if I can use their droppings as compost. They eat mostly commercial food with some veggie scraps and maybe a little yogurt or cheese here and there.

I know rabbit droppings are supposed to be great for the garden so I was hoping other rodents might also be okay.


----------



## DEKE01

aweegato said:


> I have two pet rats and I was wondering if I can use their droppings as compost. They eat mostly commercial food with some veggie scraps and maybe a little yogurt or cheese here and there.
> 
> I know rabbit droppings are supposed to be great for the garden so I was hoping other rodents might also be okay.


Any animal droppings are good for the compost pile and even the smallest of piles is large enough to take the castings of 2 rats unless they are from the Godzilla strain of rotentdom. Maybe someone can be more creative than me, but I can't think of a downside. If there are any possible disease or bacterial issues peculiar to rats that might get transmitted to humans, you've already been exposed when you cleaned their cage, and 6 - 12 months in curing compost will be disinfectant enough. 

I have no idea if rat manure can go direct to the garden like rabbit.


----------



## Forerunner

I'm having a batch of 100 T-shirts printed up.

They are going to have a picture on the front featuring a striking resemblance to Chris Farley holding a steaming (cow) pie in one hand and a mountain of compost, steaming in the background.

With his other hand the striking resemblance is going to be pointing straight at the reader with an exasperated and surly look to go with....

The caption beneath is going to read;

_*WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF HOT COMPOSTING THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ?!!!*_
















:grin:






.


----------



## myheaven

Spread compost on the smaller garden today. The bones we found were so light that they float. Talk about a well leached femur! Betcha I could run it threw my chipper now. I will still only put them net to my fruit trees though. My chipper is too important.


----------



## ajeoc

I discovered this thread months ago and have been working my way through the posts and planning my own large compost pile....
But... I have to share the following...
A few months ago New Hampshire Public Radio did a story about nitrogen collection on the "pee bus". The town of Durham noted excessive levels of nitrogen in the water treatment plant associated with nights when the typical college town is busy with parties. A group of students fitted a trailer with some urinals and a collection tank and took to the streets collecting from full bladders all over town. 
http://nhpr.org/post/unh-students-urine-diversion-program-cleans-water-fertilizes-farms


Talk about communing with the piles!!


----------



## Forerunner

........just when I thought I'd seen it all. :bow:


----------



## superduty5.9

ajeoc said:


> I discovered this thread months ago and have been working my way through the posts and planning my own large compost pile....
> But... I have to share the following...
> A few months ago New Hampshire Public Radio did a story about nitrogen collection on the "pee bus". The town of Durham noted excessive levels of nitrogen in the water treatment plant associated with nights when the typical college town is busy with parties. A group of students fitted a trailer with some urinals and a collection tank and took to the streets collecting from full bladders all over town.
> http://nhpr.org/post/unh-students-urine-diversion-program-cleans-water-fertilizes-farms
> 
> 
> Talk about communing with the piles!!


I have something similar. I am a mobile generator technician. I am on the road most days and when you got to go you got to go. Usually there is no bathrooms around. I carry a pee jug to pee in and a sawdust toilet ( 5 gallon bucket with tight fitting lid) to go in. The urine either goes on my compost pile or in my sprayer to fertilize my lawn (I have a beautiful organic, non toxic lawn). The sawdust bucket gets dumped on compost pile! It is a good use of waste products.


----------



## kilgrosh

3,323 posts, 111 pages, and almost 30 days of reading later...I finished this thread from start to finish. Here's what I learned as a re-cap:

Composting can be done anywhere, and by anyone. All you need is some carbon (woodchips, hay, dried grass, leaves, etc.) and some nitrogen (poo, in any form) mixed together properly (20:1 C:N). Leave it alone for a year. 

There are several styles of composting with benefits of each. Piling, trenching, sheet, hoarding, and communing. _Read the whole thread and you'll understand the communing and hoarding styles_ 

Animals can be composted if there is enough carbon in the pile. 

Contact your local tree services, municipal governments, and friendly neighbors for sources of free carbon. Farmers, sale barns, and feed lots are a good source of nitrogen. Stockpile carbon whenever you can. 

Extreme composting is only insane and extreme as seen by the outside observer. 

There are crazy composting people all over the country from Florida to Illinois to California to Washington. So where ever you are, you can compost and there is a good chance that someone nearby has a bigger pile


----------



## Forerunner

Dang, Kilgrosh.....you get an A+, with extra credit for reading comprehension and excellent retention of context !!!

How much simpler could it be ?

Now why can't the critics figure it out ? :facepalm:


----------



## kilgrosh

Thanks Forerunner! When it comes down to it, composting is pretty simple. Right now my compost pile is just grass clippings. I'm working on getting the wife onboard to start saving the food scraps from the kitchen. This month, I plan to actually build a compost bin from scrap wood. I'll post some pictures later on.


----------



## DEKE01

kilgrosh said:


> - Right now my compost pile is just grass clippings. I'm working on getting the wife onboard -


is the marriage thing not working out as well as you had hoped?


:runforhills:


----------



## kilgrosh

Marriage is working out fabulously...except for the not understanding my desire to live on a farm and have large piles of compost. Also, my wife is French which brings a whole other level to the discussion of compost and homesteading...


----------



## Forerunner

Hmmm..

Methinks you need to introduce her to Jean Pain........

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_pain.html


----------



## DEKE01

kilgrosh said:


> Marriage is working out fabulously...except for the not understanding my desire to live on a farm and have large piles of compost. Also, my wife is French which brings a whole other level to the discussion of compost and homesteading...


well great. I was afraid you were trying to compost your way back to bachelorhood. :gaptooth:


----------



## Freya

DEKE01 said:


> well great. I was afraid you were trying to compost your way back to bachelorhood. :gaptooth:



ound:


----------



## bmvf

I own an operate a dairy farm. The past few years I've been piling the manure in a row and turning it with the skid loader. By spring it is dark and doesn't smell. Forks on the skid loader work great as I can just go into the pile, lift up the forks and air gets into the pile. 

Well, a few weeks ago my dad was hauling manure so we could plant corn. He got into the compost pile and hauled it all out. This week I wanted to mulch some plants in the garden and have no compost!:hair There is a pile in progress but with a few cows going down the past month they are embedded in the pile.


----------



## Forerunner

......and yet another good argument for several piles going at various stages of decomposition.

What is your carbon source, Bmvf ?


----------



## Studhauler

Has anyone had bad luck using compost tea for watering / fertilizing their garden or other plants, shrubs, bushes or trees?


----------



## bmvf

My carbon is mostly straw and wood 'shavings'. The shavings are called animal bedding by my local supplier and it is ground up pallets with the large particles screened off. The large particles go to a mulch guy. However, my piles could use a lot more carbon as there is a lot of nitrogen from manure.

I prefer shavings over summer months to control flies for bedding, plus it seems to soak up more moisture than straw. I prefer straw over the winter months to keep the animals warm. I've thought about what is cheaper and I think it is the wood animal bedding. It goes a little further than straw does and is actually easier to source. It's just a phone call away. I also add the corn silage that spoils on the top edges of my silage bunkers. There are other sources like my uncle who brings grass clippings and whatever else is around. We also add any other wasted or spoiled feed.

My largest challenges with composting are keeping it dry as my bedding can sometimes be added to the pile very wet. This past winter we had 50 head that were bedded outdoors on concrete. We would clean up the area after each rain or snow and the bedding was sopping wet. It sat on a pile, unturned for a few months and had very little heat when we hauled it out. There were frozen chunks for a while. Also with my dad working with me, he doesn't really manage a pile like I do. So he'll add bedding to an almost complete pile. He also doesn't help by making heaping piles which I can't turn very easily.

I do agree, it would be nice to have a few piles going at different stages. I did this spring but it had to be hauled. I need all my extra space for feed storage. My bunkers need to be cleaned out by August for corn silage harvest. My concrete pads (all poured with leftover, free concrete) need to be clear by April and certainly by June to stack my balage. I'll need around 1600 tons of feed in storage this fall to get through winter and spring.


----------



## Forerunner

Studhauler said:


> Has anyone had bad luck using compost tea for watering / fertilizing their garden or other plants, shrubs, bushes or trees?


It generally ain't luck, either way.

It's usually that somebody got the mix a bit too strong.....

Think, herb tea. You wanna be able to see through the liquid.....


----------



## Forerunner

Were I in your situation, B..... I'd back things off a year and find an out-of-the-way spot to do a secondary stockpile, wind-rowed for ease of management, and let 'er sit.

Sounds like you've got the bedding logistics down, and making good use of waste and resources as they come available.

......and.....if your "near-finished" pile(s) is a little further from the barn, maybe we can discourage Pop from dumping the fresh material thereon.


----------



## ajeoc

Still working my way through past posts... Less only 800 or so to go!!!

Question: how important is sunlight in getting a pile to heat? My garden and orchard are behind the house and barn and access isn't ideal. I was therefor considering building my pile(s) in a wooded area closer to the driveway making it easier for adding frequent loads from the pickup truck. I would then transport finished compost to the back of the property. I would have to open up some space for the piles, but there would definitely be some shading throughout the day unless I do a lot of cutting, which I would like to avoid. 
One other issue is the runoff from the piles would be "lost" into the soil in the wooded area. 
Just wondering what the experts might think. Or if there are some issues that I might be missing. 

Thanks.


----------



## Forerunner

Typically, shade is better for compost than direct sun.
Sunlight can cook good stuff out of a pile....but only the very outer layer.

Your only drawback, that I see, is the loss of the runoff.

_IF_ you keep your material unsaturated from the start, and you don't experience an excess of rain, that runoff will be minimal, anyhow.
That said, I'd be looking for a place to pile the material where I could make use of the ground, after, but perfect isn't always realistic.


----------



## am1too

Studhauler said:


> Has anyone had bad luck using compost tea for watering / fertilizing their garden or other plants, shrubs, bushes or trees?


No maybe you have, or are you considering doing it? Its a great idea IMHO.


----------



## Studhauler

With the spring rain, one of my piles produces some tea into a low area as-to make a mud-puddle, or maybe it was a tea-puddle.:shrug: This was the first time I ever got compost tea, so I started scooping it up into 5 gallon bucket, then switched to pumping it in to a 25 gallon container. I filled the container several times. I put some of it on my vegetable garden and some on a 3 year old lilac hedgerow. 

Then it rained again, so I filled the container, and ask my Dad if he wanted it for his transplanted shade trees. He didn't want it because he was worried about PH and what looked like a film of oil on top of the water. This is what prompted me to post about bad luck (figure of speech.)

It has been a week since if first but the tea on the plants; no bad luck yet. Today I put another 50 gallons on the lilacs.


----------



## PurpleToad

I saw mentioned a few times throughout this thread where it was stated that many like to have squash or pumpkin vines on the compost pile. Per recommendations I read in here, my current compost pile has been built where I plan on building another garden bed next year. Pile is built out of chicken coop cleanout from over the winter, leaves from last year, grass clippings, and pine shavings. Can vines be planted in that pile this year? I do know the pile is hot a couple inches in. Does one just plant right at the base or do you plant nearby? I would think planting into the pile itself would cook the seeds before they had a chance to grow.


----------



## Forerunner

You got it, Purple.

Plant those vining types _close_ to the pile, and I hill mine a little with the native dirt to keep them out of too much "tea" in the event of excess rain. They'll climb the pile to mutual benefit but not be overwhelmed.
Now if you let that pile sit a year and aren't quite ready to spread it, come the time, _then_ you can plant direct in it with vining produce and even tomatoes....

ETA...... you could also plant heavy feeders such as corn and cole crops next to the current pile to make a little more immediate use of the rich runoff.


----------



## DEKE01

I can't remember if this was covered in this thread or elsewhere, but compost tea...

To make tea from soaking compost or manure in water is great, but it is adding labor that may not be the best use of your time. If you put compost around the plants you want fertilized and allow rains or irrigation to water it in, the tea is made for you where needed and there is no need for you to lug buckets of tea around the garden. 

But, if you want to go one step further, ACT - Aerated Compost Tea is a whole nuther story. Put water, compost and a sugar source like molasses, left over juice from canned peaches, way over ripe fruit, etc and add a bubbler to aerate. Let this run 24 hours and the bacteria will multiply. ACT can be used as a fertilizer and it is even richer than run off tea, but a better use is as a foliar spray where it acts as a mild pesticide.


----------



## PurpleToad

Come next spring, and maybe even this fall, that compost pile is already spoken for. A couple more 5 inch rains like I got recently I may use all of it just to fill back for all the erosion I've had so far this year. Though the initial plan was to use it for creation of 1-2 raised beds. Since my garden is on the side of a hill I am working toward having all parts of it as raised beds. 

In the past I've taken all the coop cleanings and just spread them about 2-3 inches deep right on the garden beds in the fall. By spring it was mostly broken down and made some incredible soil for planting in. 

Now I'm thinking I need to find the materials to double or triple the size of my current pile.


----------



## kilgrosh

Forerunner said:


> Hmmm..
> 
> Methinks you need to introduce her to Jean Pain........
> 
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_pain.html


Even a fellow Frenchmen might not turn the tide in my favor. Though if I can find a version in French she would be more inclined. Its very difficult to read in another language than your own.

And Deke, no I was not composting myself into bachelorhood. It was already discussed in this thread about composting wives...just not worth it :grin:


----------



## pointer33

I do not get on here to often, so please forgive me if I am out of line just jumping in here with a question. I have a couple piles contained by pallets, I put a lot of kitchen scraps in them with wood chips and let them sit....well one pile is looking like it is ready to be used ....but fire ants....lots of them....y'all have any suggestions if I do not want to use strong chemicals?


----------



## dlskidmore

If you have a second pile of fire ants, trade shovel fulls between piles. Won't completely exterminate each other, but will reduce numbers.


----------



## DEKE01

I have no science to back this up, but I don't think ants matter. I'm happy to have ants in my piles because they are another decomposer working for me. 

When I have ants in piles that are ready to be spread, the ants get spread. The ants are not long lived and will die off if not part of a colony. I think ants are similar to bees in that the eggs in the colony, absent the care of the brood workers, will not hatch. 

That said, I'm rarely without several ***** red welts around my hands and ankles from fire ant bites. It gives me pleasure to know I'm tearing apart their home.


----------



## Forerunner

Ants are generally indicative of a pile that is finished.....or to dry to heat.

If too dry, add moisture while turning the pile.

If finished (black, pleasant earthy odor and crumbly) just pull a DEKE..


----------



## pointer33

Gents, I do appreciate your expedient replies....and I gotta say I am glad no one said to recycle my ant pile into a fresh pile to reheat....just did not want to do that  It does look pretty much finished as you suggested FR. I was worried I might spread the fire ant problem but I can see you guys think that will not be a problem. See I do not tend to use much of anything I would need to wash off to eat chemical -wise but it IS getting old to be out in the garden and look down to see why my foot is burning and see the little buggers going to work on me! I have tried spinosad with disappointing results and DE with so so results....one of you guys mentioned I could mix a shovel full from one colony to another so they would hurt each other I presume...well I read an interesting thing the other day - do not know to what extent it is true or not - said that in some areas the fire ants have been adapting to some of the poisoning attempts. Some sort of natural selection breeding if oyu will that results in some colonies having 2 queens and thus being a bit more tolerant of other fire ants in there range....any you guys hear of this or think anything to it? Ah....well let me not wander too far from the compost subject at hand.....I did feel they may have helped aeriate my pile After reading some of this blog I am thinking I ought to be less casual. I have always just sorta let it go and when its done its done....tried some of the back to eden garden stuff....AWESOME ...after a year. My soil it old cotton country clay I think.....not much organic matter in it. Anyway thanks fellas!


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## MullersLaneFarm

"Pull a Deke" .... LOL!

You have now become a noun ... or is that a pronoun? I never was good at parsing sentences.


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## dlskidmore

Egad. I was consulting with my co-hostess for an event about getting guests to compost, and she's concerned that A) I'm not licensed, and B) guests can't handle sorting compost (although I often see parties where they're asked to sort recyclables)


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## dlskidmore

*sigh* Technically she's right.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/4411.html

All my animal bedding composting is exempt, and I could accept up to 3000 cubic yards of yard waste a year and 10 dead animals without a permit. But... Food waste is "Source-separated Organic Waste" which does require a permit.

So I can have 10 dead horses covered in locally generated poo and off-farm grass clippings, but I can't scrape my plate onto that pile. *stupid government* *oh wait that's an oxymoron*


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## dlskidmore

... but the very same website says I can compost food scraps at home: http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/8799.html


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## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Ants are generally indicative of a pile that is finished.....or to dry to heat.
> 
> If too dry, add moisture while turning the pile.
> 
> If finished (black, pleasant earthy odor and crumbly) just pull a DEKE..


Look, I don't want to get judgmental and you seem like a nice person, but my official position on this is that I want you to leave my DEKE alone. :happy:


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## Josmuck

I wanted to wait till I read the entire thread before making a comment and that was some very interesting reading material.

WOW that was a long read  Amazing and hats off for giving Mother Earth something back! 4runner I think you are living out a dream that a lot of people would love to do.

I will start some small piles this year and next spring start a garden. 

I have a whole pot full of leaves as my house is surrounded by trees. they will be piled together with some hoarse droppings. I would use wood chips, but I live in Germany and they are all bought from the companies that are making wood pellets for ovens. 

As I stated above leaves are plentiful and FREE&#8230; What I can't get off my own property I can get from the neighbors or just sweep up the street. Very little to almost nonexistent traffic.

Will that combination be ok? I was thinking the layers of leaves will be double or triple of the horse manure? 

Thanks and keep it going.


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## Forerunner

Germany. 


I love it.


My ancestry is German......

Leaves and horse droppings ought be a beautiful mix.
Be sure you've got a little moisture in there. Pile it high and deep and let sit.

Welcome aboard.


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## lurnin2farm

Been awhile since I posted in this thread. I do love the inspiration and visit often though ..
Here's a few photos. Not sure what page the last photos were on but there you could see how this all started. Not I just have, in the 1st photo a pile of carbon sitting since last year. The size is deceiving. It will take 6-8 truckloads of horse manure for me to mix that properly. 
Photo 2 is a pile I mixed this spring. Horse manure and chips. 3 truckloads of horse manure. Its in a shady damp area and really needs some oxygen because it really isnt cooking but its loaded with worms and the neighborhood dogs keep helping me to turn it as you can see by the edges of the pile. That will be turned in the next week or so and then this fall should be ready to spread on my new garden area. 

photo 3 is a pile I mixed and turned a couple times. Mixed it with cow manure and it did heat up pretty well. Now its also loaded with worms and some ants and as you can see got some green stuff growing all over it. I've been using this for this years planting in the new garden area. 

If I get around to it this summer I will get that pile in the 1st photo mixed with manure and have that ready for sometime next year. Then I need to find more carbon .


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## Forerunner

You're piece of Ohio looks particularly green........

If you have a pile not heating, but full of worms, I wouldn't worry about it....Them worms know what to do.

You've got your priorities straight.....



> _Then I need to find more carbon...... _









.


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## lurnin2farm

This place is very green. The compost piles are at the bottom of some very large hills. All the runoff lands here. One of my projects is to cut swails into the hillside to help retain the water longer. I have ditches that go all the way up the property and they are loaded with leaves so lots of carbon being stored there as well. All I need to do is collect it this fall. . 

The worms are doing a great job and I was thinking the same thing. As long as they are working it I dont need to worry much. Takes longer but the results seem to be pretty good so far. The gardens are doing fine so I am in no hurry for this and 6 months to a years wait isnt a problem. .


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## ajeoc

My pile might not be big (yet), but I was feeling pretty "extreme" last night when I walked out to the road with a 5 gallon bucket and a shovel to collect a road kill ground hog. I brought it home an buried in the pile and covered with stockpiled carbon....

: just as I was taught.


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## K9Dave

Nice. There's a guy doing extreme composting of sorts here in Phoenix. Hamilton Organics Llc I think on FB. He gives his worm compost wallets and belts. They destroy it. It's awesome


Sent from my iPhone using Homesteading Today


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## DEKE01

I've got two momma bears on the farm, the older one with trips, the younger with twins. I don't know for sure where big momma is holing up, but the little momma has dug down into one of my bigger piles (about 8' high and about 40' circumference) of pine and oak slash. I'm fine with that, there is enough big stuff in that pile that I was planning on letting it sit another year anyway. 

What I'm not happy about is my one compost pile that gets household scraps/paper wastes/anything biodegradable, has become a bear magnet. It sits in the middle of my orchard/garden and fences are being torn down and trash scattered. I put one foot of wood chips on top and they still tore it up. This pile is where 50 chickens will be housed this fall and my veggies will be planted next spring. So I don't want to give up on this pile. 

The baby bears are cute enough to pick up and hug, though I suspect the mommas might object. The big momma is brazen enough that she is letting the truck get within 15 - 20 ft of her before running off. I don't see this ending well for one of us, but I'm the one with a recipe for bear meat chili. 

I'm still two months from getting electric on the farm to run hot wires and from what I've read, solar electric fence will not stop bears. Any suggestions?


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## dlskidmore

See if your local animal control has recommendations? They don't want these bears losing fear of humans and causing them issues later.


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## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> I've got two momma bears on the farm, the older one with trips, the younger with twins. I don't know for sure where big momma is holing up, but the little momma has dug down into one of my bigger piles (about 8' high and about 40' circumference) of pine and oak slash. I'm fine with that, there is enough big stuff in that pile that I was planning on letting it sit another year anyway.
> 
> What I'm not happy about is my one compost pile that gets household scraps/paper wastes/anything biodegradable, has become a bear magnet. It sits in the middle of my orchard/garden and fences are being torn down and trash scattered. I put one foot of wood chips on top and they still tore it up. This pile is where 50 chickens will be housed this fall and my veggies will be planted next spring. So I don't want to give up on this pile.
> 
> The baby bears are cute enough to pick up and hug, though I suspect the mommas might object. The big momma is brazen enough that she is letting the truck get within 15 - 20 ft of her before running off. I don't see this ending well for one of us, but I'm the one with a recipe for bear meat chili.
> 
> I'm still two months from getting electric on the farm to run hot wires and from what I've read, solar electric fence will not stop bears. Any suggestions?


That's because the joules aren't enough. When you get electric put a 6 joule charger on it. That should do it. They're less that $150 and closer to $100 if you shop the net.


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## DEKE01

am1too said:


> That's because the joules aren't enough. When you get electric put a 6 joule charger on it. That should do it. They're less that $150 and closer to $100 if you shop the net.


Yep, that's the conclusion I had come to. I guess I can skip composting my household stuff for the next couple of months but it grates against my inner composter.


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## kilgrosh

What about spraying your compost pile with OC Spray? From what I understand, bears have an extreme sense of smell and the OC spray is all natural. If you contacted your local sheriff's department they might be willing to give you the expired canisters. Maybe even invite them over for a cook out on the day you need the pile sprayed, that is if you are friendly with your local law enforcement.


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## myheaven

What about a zapper hooked up to a truck battery? It's enough to keep my neighbors bull inside his fence.


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## Percy

Testing post on new mobile app thanks just disregard


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## fishhead

DEKE01 said:


> I've got two momma bears on the farm, the older one with trips, the younger with twins. I don't know for sure where big momma is holing up, but the little momma has dug down into one of my bigger piles (about 8' high and about 40' circumference) of pine and oak slash. I'm fine with that, there is enough big stuff in that pile that I was planning on letting it sit another year anyway.
> 
> What I'm not happy about is my one compost pile that gets household scraps/paper wastes/anything biodegradable, has become a bear magnet. It sits in the middle of my orchard/garden and fences are being torn down and trash scattered. I put one foot of wood chips on top and they still tore it up. This pile is where 50 chickens will be housed this fall and my veggies will be planted next spring. So I don't want to give up on this pile.
> 
> The baby bears are cute enough to pick up and hug, though I suspect the mommas might object. The big momma is brazen enough that she is letting the truck get within 15 - 20 ft of her before running off. I don't see this ending well for one of us, but I'm the one with a recipe for bear meat chili.
> 
> I'm still two months from getting electric on the farm to run hot wires and from what I've read, solar electric fence will not stop bears. Any suggestions?


Battery powered chargers will keep bears out. That's what the bee keepers use around here. You can charge the battery with a solar collector or just bring it home and charge it like any other deep cycle battery.


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## fishhead

We're hearing reports of people shooting carp and then dumping truck loads of them where they shouldn't.

If I had the property I'd be advertising a free dump site and take all the tons of carp that are being dumped. Then I'd run the compost through a grinder and sell it.

Maybe I'd even run a contest for the most carp to advertise the service and the product.


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## kilgrosh

Last night we held a small birthday dinner for my wife at our place. We had a dozen ears of corn, salad, and some London broils. I took all of the scraps and placed them on my compost pile. My father asked "Won't raccoons get into that stuff?". My reply "No, because we have a large eagle or hawk that eats them." With that I kicked my pile a bit, made a hole, and put all the scraps in. Should be done in a few months.


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## bja105

I still have not bought a dump truck or dump trailer. Tonight I am renting a 6x10 dump trailer. I have a connection with a nearby horse barn with a couple hills of stall cleanings. Tonight is the livestock auction, i will see what they do with their stall cleanings. Last time I was there, they were piling it up elsewhere on the property. I also have access to my sawdust pile next door.

If the dump trailer does what I want it to do, I would rather have the trailer than a dump truck.


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## DEKE01

Update on my slash piles. On advice here, I pushed dirt on top of the piles, and added several loads of sludge as I could. Unfortunately, my sludge supply has dried up, so I have to find something else. I'm quite happy with results so far. The sludge and dirt accelerated the pile decomposition. Even if it isn't getting hot, decay is moving much faster now. This is a photo of the pile which I turned 3 weeks ago and it has quickly covered itself with grass. The kid in the photo is a neighbor so that you can get an idea of the size. The pile has reduced by about a third in the last year.


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## myheaven

Just received my first load of I hope many of tree chipping from the power lines being cleared. They gave us permission to go get the fire wood too. Sweet. Turns out the owner of the company knows us. In a round about way. Makes me realize I know many people.


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## Freya

I hope Tim posts some jealousy inducing pics in here again soon. I love daydreaming about them. :gaptooth: :heh:


Did you ever get your hydro power set up? Or did I miss a thread somewhere? I REALLY miss Lori's old blog. :awh:


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## MutzFarm

Wanted to say this is an awesome thread and jump in with some pictures of our little compost pile and some of our living composters....lol.


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## idigbeets

How do you like that Mahindra?


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## elkhound

deke1...that looks like a giant hugelculture bed to be.


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## DEKE01

elkhound said:


> deke1...that looks like a giant hugelculture bed to be.


You know, I had not thought about that, but that's not a bad idea. As I've turned piles in the last month or two, I've moved and combined some of them, so I'm down to about 15 that size. I found a new supply of manure and brought home about 5 tons yesterday. Maybe I should just plan on those big piles staying where they are, adding more manure, and then planting something tasty on top. Hmmmm....

Dang it, Elk, now I have to go read about hugelculture more. You weren't supposed to be assigning homework.


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## elkhound

look up sepp holzer and paul wheaton for hugel stuff. paul posts here on occasion.


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## elkhound

http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/


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## DEKE01

elkhound said:


> http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/


I read that site again, I had seen it several years ago and that was, in part, what inspired me to bury so much wood in my orchard. I guess what I find puzzling is once the hill is built, how to garden effectively. As I've found dead animals and brought household wastes to bury in those piles, they can often be quite challenging to dig in. Perhaps it wouldn't take much digging to garden because maybe if I plant a tomato seed in an inch of soil, the root will find a way to reach down thru the maze of woody debris?


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## Rafter B

bja105 said:


> I still have not bought a dump truck or dump trailer. Tonight I am renting a 6x10 dump trailer. I have a connection with a nearby horse barn with a couple hills of stall cleanings. Tonight is the livestock auction, i will see what they do with their stall cleanings. Last time I was there, they were piling it up elsewhere on the property. I also have access to my sawdust pile next door.
> 
> If the dump trailer does what I want it to do, I would rather have the trailer than a dump truck.


 
a dump trailer is nice, but since reading this tread, over and over again mind you lol, I have thought about getting a grain truck. they are pretty big, seems to be cheap and they dump. has anyone done this yet? and/or is it a good idea? I thought it was mentioned in here, but I haven't found it this time around.


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## Forerunner

An old grain truck, for cost, carrying capacity and ease of serviceability,in my estimation.....is one short step away from the ultimate tooling.....loader tractor and two or three wagons.
Go for it.


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## Rafter B

cool. that is what I had thought. I can see myself now driving from my local carbon source, wherever that would be. I am so ready lol.


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## bja105

I bought a dump trailer today.

I also have a loading tractor, and a wagon. The wagon floor needs to be rebuilt, maybe I can find a way to make it dump? More likely, the new trailer will do me for a few years.


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## MutzFarm

idigbeets said:


> How do you like that Mahindra?


We love it. I get asked by some if it was worth it? I always tell them if I had to rent a piece of equipment every time I turned the key it would make 3 or more payments a month. 

I have to say it has plenty of power. We always run outa traction before we run out of power.

Oh and it is the 4wd 4025 unit.


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## Idum

Mutz, what kind of pigs are those in your picture?


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## MutzFarm

Idum said:


> Mutz, what kind of pigs are those in your picture?


American Guinea Hogs


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## Idum

Thanks Mr. Mutz, I've been looking at AGH's and thought yours looked familiar.


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## Rafter B

ok, I am going though withdraws. are you all busy around the homestead? no pics no nothing for almost of month.


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## Allen W

Rafter B said:


> a dump trailer is nice, but since reading this tread, over and over again mind you lol, I have thought about getting a grain truck. they are pretty big, seems to be cheap and they dump. has anyone done this yet? and/or is it a good idea? I thought it was mentioned in here, but I haven't found it this time around.


If you want to use one as a dump truck for hauling wet or damp material get one with as short of overhang behind the rear axle as you can. This will allow the bed to be raised to a steeper angle more like a regular dump truck. Don't get too carried away loading one I've seen beds twisted and one truck go over because the load stuck on one side and didn't slide out.


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## Rafter B

Allen W said:


> If you want to use one as a dump truck for hauling wet or damp material get one with as short of overhang behind the rear axle as you can. This will allow the bed to be raised to a steeper angle more like a regular dump truck. Don't get too carried away loading one I've seen beds twisted and one truck go over because the load stuck on one side and didn't slide out.


oh wow. really, that is crazy. I will have to keep that in mind, cuz my thoughts are to be as extreme as I can.


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## bja105

We like pictures.
Pile one.















Pile three








I know how much work went into these, even with a loader tractor. It makes Forerunner's piles awe inspiring. Last years pile was made with a shovel and a garden tractor with cart. Not as big, but the garden weeds liked it.


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## Forerunner

One of these days, I really do need to get out there and capture another handful of photographic representations for yuhz........I certainly haven't slowed down any.....just a different set of priorities lately.


----------



## Rafter B

lol yes sir, you sure do. you know much we love pics


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## myheaven

Most of my piles are hidden by the 15 foot tall corn. I will have to get pictures of the 2 other piles I have started.


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## nosedirt

Forerunner,
I saw this thread and thought I might burn a few minutes reading about composting. I didn't realize it was 170 pages long. Oh my, it took me a few hours but I couldn't help myself. I read it all the way through. Very interesting and you are an excellent writer. Even without the pics, I can see all of this taking place. Thanks for sharing and I hope you continue adding more to this thread.
Nosedirt


----------



## Forerunner

Thank you for that honoring review, ND.

When I initiated the thread, a certain level of popularity was rather anticipated....... but I hadn't envisioned it taking off like it did.
It has been deeply gratifying to have been the instigator of inspiration for so many in the crucial fields of organic soil fertility and waste resource reclamation.


----------



## Freya

Forerunner said:


> When I initiated the thread, a certain level of popularity was rather anticipated....... but I hadn't envisioned it taking off like it did.



*4.5+ years

171 pages

3402 posts

289,253 views*

:rock: :bow: :buds:


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## Forerunner

What now......

You carry on like the numbers are a big deal er sumthin'.....

:indif:


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## am1too

Forerunner I've often wondered if you've soil tested before and after applying compost. I've seen pictures of your garden. They're beautiful. I'm interested in what the actual change of nutrients show. My extension agent said to continue applying compost and I'd more less be fine. I had my compost tested and it seemed to be a little rich on the N side. I was told to add some N later as plants began to bloom. I still get great results from just compost.


----------



## Forerunner

A fellow here in forum who participated early on in the thread once PMed me with an offer to test my soil at what was to him a nearby university specializing in that field.
I never took him up on it......but maybe mighta should have.

Like you, I just base conclusions on the fruits, so to speak.
I still tend to occasionally facilitate a season-long imbalance, here and there, but the following season invariably sees the full benefit.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> A fellow here in forum who participated early on in the thread once PMed me with an offer to test my soil at what was to him a nearby university specializing in that field.
> I never took him up on it......but maybe mighta should have.
> 
> Like you, I just base conclusions on the fruits, so to speak.
> I still tend to occasionally facilitate a season-long imbalance, here and there, but the following season invariably sees the full benefit.


Thank you very much. The reason I ask this is else where I'm admonished to test my soil and dump chemicals on it. Since I respond in a way that I'm not interested in chemicals and know what compost will do, I'm said to be unreasonable. I have grass and my neighbor has weeds with no grass and twice the acreage. He is one of them know it alls.

I will get a before and after soil test on a plot. It will only cost me $20.


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## elkhound

from a pile...i filled a raised bed and planted garlic in it.


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## ajeoc

It is that time of year again. The folks in town have begun to package their compostables up into big paper bags and place them at the end of their drive way all neat and tidy. Stop and toss some in the back of my truck? I don't mind if I do!


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## DEKE01

well done, Ajeoc. I sure wish I could find such cooperative folks around my farm. how nice that they leave you compost fodder in such neat packages.


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## kilgrosh

Sadly in my neighborhood, you rake the leaves into the street and once a week the township comes by and vacuums them all up.


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## Forerunner

Find the happy place where the municipality unloads those leaves.
Pack a stout pitchfork. 

I just visited my beloved Canton, Ill. yard waste facility for the first time in months, and was greeted with all manner of delectable compostables.

:bouncy:


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## elkhound




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## bja105

I don't have much news, except I built sides on my dump trailer, so now I can haul almost twice as much sawdust per load. I have not been hauling much, since its hunting season, so Saturday is spent hunting and doing everything else I need to do. I can't haul sawdust on Sunday.

The Game Warden brought me another deer, but he has only brought me 8 this year. He said I should call Penndot and see who their dead deer removal contractors are. 

I need more nitrogen for my piles. I have nearly limitless sawdust, but we don't produce much manure, and the closest free manure source is down a steep hill in their pasture. I really scared myself sliding backward with a too full trailer. There is another horse barn nearby on level land, but I haven't seen anyone there to ask.

What about all those leaves? There are loads of oak leaves bagged on the corners all over. Do leaves have enough nitrogen to compost with sawdust? My piles are too dry already. Will a 'gravy lake' catch enough rain to help?


----------



## Forerunner

Leaves would help some, but more for variety in the pile and a little mineral content.
Leaves are a much better stand alone compost material than sawdust, for C/N balance....but in the long run, I'd rather be strong on carbon, anyway.
You could always recycle your nitrogen by mixing finished compost with the fully decomposed carcasses and such back into the new pile of sawdust and leaves, to some benefit.

In the mean time, certainly keep accumulating sawdust and leaves, and make sure the leaves have adequate moisture.....

ETA.....anything you could do to catch rainwater would be a plus.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Leaves would help some, but more for variety in the pile and a little mineral content.
> Leaves are a much better stand alone compost material than sawdust, for C/N balance....but in the long run, I'd rather be strong on carbon, anyway.
> You could always recycle your nitrogen by mixing finished compost with the fully decomposed carcasses and such back into the new pile of sawdust and leaves, to some benefit.
> 
> In the mean time, certainly keep accumulating sawdust and leaves, and make sure the leaves have adequate moisture.....
> 
> ETA.....anything you could do to catch rainwater would be a plus.


I currently have 1 pile going on a slope and have noticed a huge difference. All future piles will be under the crest of the hill on a slope.


----------



## Forerunner

Huge difference, how, Am1 ?

What is your situation with that pile that's different from the others and what benefits are you seeing ?


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Huge difference, how, Am1 ?
> 
> What is your situation with that pile that's different from the others and what benefits are you seeing ?


The pile on the slope has composted faster due to soaking up run off I assume. I don't have any other ideas. It has shrunk 4 ft. I turned it once.


----------



## myheaven

My dh has an amazing video but yet it is the most sad I have ever seen. The sand mine down the road is cutting down 63 acres of trees and they are grinding all to saw dust every last twig, tree everythin. Guess what they are doing with it.? Digging a hole and burrying it. It's not allowed to leave the property due to liability. It makes me want to puke!


----------



## kilgrosh

MyHeaven, you just made Foreunner really angry and start crying at the same time... Now he'll be just about useless for the rest of the day  or until he communes with his pile.


----------



## myheaven

kilgrosh said:


> MyHeaven, you just made Foreunner really angry and start crying at the same time... Now he'll be just about useless for the rest of the day  or until he communes with his pile.


I'm the same way. I couldn't stop sobbing. fantastic equipment but the biggest waste known to man. it's enough to make God himself cry.


----------



## DEKE01

I received a SPAM from the prepper project today. They ask the question, how do we prevent our civilization from dying like the Mayans and Mesopotamians. Their answer may be upsetting to Forerunner as they have clearly violated his copyrights and intellectual property. Scroll down to just below the great big "FEEDING YOUR SOIL" and you'll see why. 

theprepperproject.com


ETA: by posting that link, I am not endorsing their product; it might be a great book but I haven't read it. I think a used copy of _Humanure Handbook_ and reading this thread is going to cover the topic thoroughly. And if you want a more scientific info in a very readable format, I recommend _Building Soils for Better Crops_ which is free from SARE here: Building-Soils-for-Better-Crops-3rd-Edition


----------



## myheaven

^^^^^^^^^ oh snap!^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Forerunner

kilgrosh said:


> MyHeaven, you just made Foreunner really angry and start crying at the same time... Now he'll be just about useless for the rest of the day  or until he communes with his pile.


Naw...... A few choice expletives and a cold beer....I'm almost over it.







Idiots









:indif:




.


----------



## Forerunner

I don't mind a little imitation on the side. 

They claim it IS the sincerest form of flattery. 

Agreed on the literary recommendation, DEKE..... The Humanure Handbook is really good stuff. I might add Rodale's Complete Book of Composting, original version.


----------



## myheaven

I know the good Lord tells us to be quick to forgive but this is just pure idiotic. it's all about liability. 63 acres. wow just wow. I guess I need more beer if Tim can just let go like that.


----------



## Forerunner

Well, besides the beer, I do have an assortment of very imposing compost piles to salve most offenses that come from afar.....


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> I received a SPAM from the prepper project today. They ask the question, how do we prevent our civilization from dying like the Mayans and Mesopotamians. Their answer may be upsetting to Forerunner as they have clearly violated his copyrights and intellectual property. Scroll down to just below the great big "FEEDING YOUR SOIL" and you'll see why.
> 
> theprepperproject.com
> 
> 
> ETA: by posting that link, I am not endorsing their product; it might be a great book but I haven't read it. I think a used copy of _Humanure Handbook_ and reading this thread is going to cover the topic thoroughly. And if you want a more scientific info in a very readable format, I recommend _Building Soils for Better Crops_ which is free from SARE here: Building-Soils-for-Better-Crops-3rd-Edition


Looks like a scammer to me.


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## Cascade Failure

Cascade Failure said:


> I have started bringing home the coffee grounds from work. Nothing extreme, a couple of 5 gallon buckets a day. They had previously been spoken for but that person no longer wants them.


I found out today I will probably be losing my coffee grounds source. They are likely switching to a liquid concentrate. Bummer.


----------



## Forerunner

They gotta be more establishments in the area what makes good coffee....... :shrug:


----------



## Cascade Failure

There sure are other places. Hard to beat the convenience of picking up at work though. Not to mention it has felt like a daily bonus!


----------



## Forerunner

Maybe take a couple of buckets and some sawdust to work and see if you can solicit any contributors/contributions.......... :grin:


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## Cascade Failure

I think I'll stick with rabbit poop and frequent communing with the pile.


----------



## ajeoc

I have to report that I was pretty excited that even after some cold days and nights in recent weeks, the 8-10 inches of snow that fell Wednesday into Thursday was gone from the top of my pile in less than 24 hrs... I didn't really think it would stay hot enough when the cold weather rolled around.


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## Forerunner

I have often witnessed the moisture from a snow actually boosting the microcritters on the top of the pile and getting steam soon after.......


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## Allen W

There is some thing special about snow, it seems to have an insulating and solar effect.


----------



## stormrider27

No matter how much good snow can do if it snows here I'm burning down the house and moving to Central America.

Storm


----------



## Forerunner

Pansy.


























:grin:





.


----------



## unregistered41671

I saw it snow in Okeechobee in 1977 or 78. Heard that they saw snow flakes as as far south as Ft Lauderdale and Miami. No accumulation of course but who knows?


----------



## DEKE01

Why is extreme composting required? There is always more need than there is finished product. 

Photo 1 shows the lawn I failed to rehab since January. So as my piles matured or I could find outside sources, DW went to work spreading about 3 weeks ago.

Photo 2 shows 3 tons of composted manure which was only an inch or two spread over about 7500 sq ft. 

Photo 3 shows a similar area 3 weeks after it was treated with another 3 tons of composted manure and seeded with ryegrass and my "driveway" which is yet another 3 tons of wood chips.


----------



## Forerunner

DEKE01 said:


> Why is extreme composting required? There is always more need than there is finished product.


Amen.

Stewardship of the earth is the ultimate job security.


----------



## 4crumleys

So, I got a truck load of horse manure, mixed with shavings, probably about 2 months old and started my pile. I have been mixing in a wheelbarrow of chicken poop and pine shavings every two weeks, along with kitchen veggies for about two months now. I have kept it damp, but my pile is cold. Where did I go wrong? What do I need to add to heat it back up??? We live in North Ga.


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## Forerunner

That's amazing !! 

........going from your description and all......


Horse stuff with bedding, alone is textbook starter.

Do you have any unconfessed sins ?


----------



## 4crumleys

Forerunner said:


> That's amazing !!
> 
> ........going from your description and all......
> 
> 
> Horse stuff with bedding, alone is textbook starter.
> 
> Do you have any unconfessed sins ?


Yep, I am amazed as well, it started hot, but cooled off after 1 week. Can't get the temp back up. Today I added a truckload of chopped up dry leaves.


----------



## Forerunner

Another round of hot horse stuff couldn't hurt.

Commune ?


----------



## myheaven

got a few cans of skanky beer? beer is a great feed and starter as well as pee. Dumping my child potty chair cup seems to help.


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## ajeoc

Do you have the material piled high?
You said it is damp. Any chance it is to wet? I think the suggestion I have heard is about as wet as a wrung out sponge.


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## Forerunner

Alright.

Finally had the thought cross my mind when the phone was charged and there was nothing pressing on the schedule ....


The West Garden/Barn pile...... an oft-used winter haven for large compost deliveries, for it's proximity to gravel approach and winter parking for heavy equipment.

ETA.....for contrast, there are approximately 20 full-sized bovine carcasses decomposing in this pile, and near 100 lesser critters.
The entire pile is prolly 12-15 semi loads.
.


----------



## Forerunner

.......the winter house-warming pile....


.


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## Forerunner

The New Pond Dam, ongoing renovation conglomerate......


.


----------



## Forerunner

The East Garden Pile, largely mellowed and waiting for the Spring Spread.



.


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## Forerunner

A pile near the north woods, trying to decide when and how to spread as there is only healthy and established rye, for spring dairy pasture, adjacent.
Prolly just keep adding to it as the Spirit moves me.....no hurry....


.


----------



## Forerunner

OK..... Now for the real deal.

This is two years' accumulation and running.
I'd hate to venture a guess as to tonnage, but when I spread these two piles, the topography over four or five acres will change as much as six feet in elevation in places.
This has been the default area for dumping and managing large amounts of compost material pretty much from the beginning of my extreme composting venture.
The pile to the left wraps around and increases in width and height behind the trees. The trees surround a small bullfrog and turtle lagoon that acts as a primary stabilization pond for a large portion of the runoff.
The pile on the right is about 80 yards long.....the one on the left over twice that. Both are shoved up an average of 10-14 feet high, and 50-80 feet wide at their base.


----------



## Forerunner

Here's another shot, taken from the road where I approach the site, loaded.


.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> OK..... Now for the real deal.
> 
> This is two years' accumulation and running.
> I'd hate to venture a guess as to tonnage, but when I spread these two piles, the topography over four or five acres will change as much as six feet in elevation in places.
> This has been the default area for dumping and managing large amounts of compost material pretty much from the beginning of my extreme composting venture.
> The pile to the left wraps around and increases in width and height behind the trees. The trees surround a small bullfrog and turtle lagoon that acts as a primary stabilization pond for a large portion of the runoff.
> The pile on the right is about 80 yards long.....the one on the left over twice that. Both are shoved up an average of 10-14 feet high, and 50-80 feet wide at their base.


Lota good stuff.


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## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Alright.
> 
> Finally had the thought cross my mind when the phone was charged and there was nothing pressing on the schedule ....
> 
> 
> The West Garden/Barn pile...... an oft-used winter haven for large compost deliveries, for it's proximity to gravel approach and winter parking for heavy equipment.
> 
> ETA.....for contrast, there are approximately 20 full-sized bovine carcasses decomposing in this pile, and near 100 lesser critters.
> The entire pile is prolly 12-15 semi loads.
> .


Stirred up a pile of horse stall cleaning I put a road kill deer in and could not even find a bone. Think I will do some more.


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## Forerunner

Aw.... I dunno.


It's just different variations of piles of ****.


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## myheaven

yeah Tim posted pics. oh how I love your pictures.


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## MullersLaneFarm

I recognize the area in pics 1-4 ... the rest?? I guess I need to visit more in the winter months. I *think* I know those piles.


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## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> Here's another shot, taken from the road where I approach the site, loaded.
> 
> 
> .


Where is the REALLY LIKE button?


----------



## Forerunner

I think you just clicked on it.


----------



## myheaven

you know you have come full circle when you luster for other compost piles. I have 3 piles before the spring cleaning.


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## deb_rn

Oh My!! Compost envy! We have 2 small piles behind the garage and another in the garden for awkward stuff. That would cover my small city lot and bury the house!! LOL


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## am1too

deb_rn said:


> Oh My!! Compost envy! We have 2 small piles behind the garage and another in the garden for awkward stuff. That would cover my small city lot and bury the house!! LOL


We are just a little extreme and serious about composting here. My piles do not come close yet. But even my old piles would make a few big dump loads.


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## palm farmer

my current two piles, these are piles of wood chips that we spread out in a in 60x80 open hog pen, we drag the pen about every 6 weeks, stack it and let it sit for a month or sow, and then run it over a shaker table we built this summer. once its screened we use it in the nursery to back fill holes in field grown bamboo and palms. We have been using it in our potting mix with great results


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## Forerunner

Hey !!

No fair on that shaker table.

:indif:


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## Studhauler

Now Forerunner, I know you could fab up a shaker table. From what I have seen, when I visited, you probably got most of what you need on your homestead.


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## Forerunner

My shaker used to consist of four little(ish) kids walking through the freshly harrowed field with five gallon buckets.

:grin:

Then they all got big and found other pursuits.



:sob:





One of 'em even loved to run the bone grinder in his mid-later teens.....


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## DEKE01

FR, that brings to mind a composting angle we may not have fully explored. Are uncooperative teenagers compostable? :whistlin:


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## Forerunner

Yeah, they are.......but only under the most dire conditions.....


----------



## palm farmer

when it drys up around here we run a batch I will get some action shots , be warned its pretty primitive !! we basically mounted a frame/table on four car springs welded to the frame, added a motor, a shaft and a counter weight on the shaft and let'er shake rattle n roll thats a finished batch right there and we can pick it up and move it around to meet our needs, next mode to it will be to drop the front end down about 8 inches to a foot so material runs a little faster


----------



## Forerunner

That just looks like fun.....that's all. 

It would take a couple years to screen my current supply on that rig, and that supply is growing fast........

:sob:


.


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## DEKE01

palm farmer, more photos of your shaker table please. I made a screen/sifter but have been considering upgrading to a powered unit for creating potting soil.


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## palm farmer

I will post some up in the morning, we have a pig about to domino so I am checking on her on and off thru the night, we got the pigs a little over a year ago and we started off running them on a modified deep wood chip type setup, but it was this website that further inspired me to kick it up a notch and it has been a lot of fun!!


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## palm farmer

Forerunner said:


> That just looks like fun.....that's all.
> 
> It would take a couple years to screen my current supply on that rig, and that supply is growing fast........
> 
> :sob:
> 
> 
> .


 ours gets used up plenty quick, we have sold some and used it on landscape jobs and as a potting mix, as my liners come in for spring it will go pretty fast, 
3000 three gallon containers stacks disappear quick


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## Forerunner

I have friends who own a fairly popular nursery, ten miles off.

They have come to barter several loads of compost from me, each year, for their own use and for resale to those with savvy and an adventurous spirit.
Apparently those old-timers, and even a few modern yuppy types, don't mind picking a few bones out of their premium-grade backwoods compost blend.

:grin:


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## Studhauler

This is my homegrown pile started this fall when I cleaned out the garden, also has some road kill including one whole deer, the leaves from the yard and two deer carcasses from deer hunting. 

The first picture is just after I turned the pile on Christmas Day. Dad lets me use his tractor on a very limited basis, or I would turn the piles more often.














The next picture is on New Years Day after a week of 20 below at night and zero for the high temp, then it wormed up and snowed on the night of the 31st. I like how the snow is melted on the top of the pile.











.


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## myheaven

Hey Tim question. I have seen a few blogs and videos of people using their compost piles and pex tubing to heat their showers and or green houses in winter. Would doing so steal too much heat from the piles to "harm" the piles in any way?


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## Studhauler

I have thought that all along. If you are taking BTU's to heat your water from the compost pile, there will be less BTU's to heat the pile it self. The way Forerunner does it, he is capturing the heat that would be escaping anyways.


.


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## Forerunner

It's a matter of mass and math.

BIG piles (well-constructed for C/N and moisture, of course) can do big things.

You will never "hurt" the microbes by removing too much heat, too fast, but you can sure out run them if their mass is lacking.

Jean Pain had it down to a science, though he did seem to favor extremes to the excessive side.... :whistlin:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_pain.html

If I was going to start over from scratch with an intent to heat home and water (and livestock barn/bunker in the north or plains states) I would build partially underground to start, and dig in silage bunker type pits on either side with pure earth in the back (north) and open to full winter sun to the south. Both lateral "pits" would be capable to hold upwards of ten semi loads of compost. 
Might sound excessive to some for a sustainability angle, but that quantity would shrink by half as it decomposed, leaving enough to fertilize an acre or two or three really well for the following year.....and, those pits wouldn't need to be filled all in one day. A couple pickup loads a day would do it, starting in mid to late summer...... 
Pour a divider wall down the center of each pit to permanently install a very high quality water line to be contained within the concrete, and enjoy HOT water all fall winter and spring, while simultaneously enjoying the radiant heat from the piles.


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## DEKE01

The uglier side of composting...

In the center of my orchard is my junk compost pile. Calling the area an orchard is a bit optimistic as it only has about 50 young fruit trees so far, but strawberries, blackberries, grape, and more fruit trees are in the plans for this year. 

This compost pile receives all the decomposable trash from the house. I have other piles that get dead plants and animals from the farm and imports. When I put something particularly ugly or stinky in the pile, it gets a couple of loader buckets of manure from those piles in the back ground. You can see turnips and rape growing in the manure because the seed is so cheap and I have many pounds of it. I toss seed onto the piles to scavenge nutrients and create more green manure. The young plants will get covered when the next load gets tossed it. 

I wouldn't say it is extreme except that it is sometimes extremely ugly with trash, boxes, packing materials, Christmas wrapping paper, junk mail, etc. I'm not a fan of using fence to confine piles, but in this case, it is needed to keep the lighter stuff from blowing around the orchard.


----------



## gimpyrancher

Last year I brought in about 60 cu yds of old horse ranch collections to my property. I dumped it all in one place on the property. Property is second growth pine that has become overgrown with small trees.

I also have a house in town with large trees that produce a lot of leaves and small branches every year. I've been hauling it up to the property and dumping it in another location. It also includes a bunch of old fallen logs that are so old that they seem to weigh almost nothing. Great rain sponge material.

Now I've been cutting a fence line (will be about 1/2-3/4 mile long) and 10 to 12ft wide and going to use that as my future road to where we plan on building our log home. Pushing over pine trees from a couple of inches in diameter to over a foot in diameter so far.

Now it's time to start limbing those trees and perhaps chipping them to add to another pile. All of this and all the dead fallen trees all over the property will be used to combine all the piles and create a real meaningful compost pile for future use.

Most of the property is fairly barren except for the pine forest with lots of weeds and lots of old fallen trees. It's high desert land. Can't wait to start posting pictures of my combined pile.

Most in the area burn large debris piles each year and I hope to put the "waste" to better use. Hugelkultur beds are definitely in our future and all the compost will certainly be put to good use.

I especially look forward to seeing the pile in the winter with snow on the ground and perhaps an uncovered compost pile due to heat.


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## Forerunner

If I were in your shoes, Gimpy, I would _want_ a chipper, while admitting to myself all the while that I didn't _need_ a chipper.



A man who composts brush need never worry that his work will be done tomorrow......

Just what are your summer and winter temperature averages and extremes, and rainfall average, out/up in that Oregon high desert ?


----------



## gimpyrancher

I own a smaller chipper but I think I'll end up either renting a large one or buying a used one.

But the branches will be useful in my hugelkultur beds.


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## Grapescott

Wow, just spent the better part of two weeks reading EVERY thread of EVERY page. Can't believe how much info on poo...and pee...
First of several questions- Tim, you da man! How'd your screen name originate?

Here's my back story: spent my 54 years living on postage size lots in NJ. Moved a couple years ago to 1/12 acres in the heart of the pinelands (zone 7a)... Tiny for yuz guys, but it is my paradise....
Been clearing the back 1/2 acre to plant veggies and to have some goats( arriving next month).
My 9to5 is in sales, some on the road and some from home- plenty of time to get one with the dirt...

Questions

Whats the real risk of a pile getting hot enough to become a fire hazard? There are days we are all out of the house all day with no one to monitor...

I've seen mention of shade being good- but how about complete shade? I've been scoping out potential pile sites and can utilize some shade areas if it would work.

My kid just moved her horse to a new stable- I've been sneaking around and see they have a slide off container filled with manure/shavings so I'd assume they pay to haul it away....been trying to hook up with barn manager and ask if I could help myself to the some of the giant pile on the ground...(was there on a 15 degree day and saw steam!!!) if I can get some to load (on my tiny harbor freight 4X8 trailer) should I take the time to dig in and haul the hot stuff or is just taking what's up front ok enough? 

Same kid- starts a job at a bagel shop soon, are coffee grounds N or C? Gonna have her ask owner if grounds are spoken for....

Sister has a hair salon- hair is a good source of_______?

As I said I'm in sales, selling wine. On occasion clients return wine to me to credit the account. Typically the wine is return as bad, spoiled wine but not vinegary.... I issue credit then throw the bottles (and wine) in the garbage.....I now feel it can be composted, but for what purpose? Thought it may be a nice addition to a manure tea? At any given time I can have several (10/12) bottles sitting around in garage for disposal.

All for now....

Thank you HT for providing such a helpful forum, and thank you Tim- your passion and enthusiasm is infectious....I've always cummune when I'm in the yard, now I can put it to use... Did I mention that Tim is da man?

(Oh dear, I may have a man crush on him)...:kissy:


----------



## DEKE01

Welcome to extreme composting, Grape. 


Hair and coffee are N materials. All good. Worms will love the coffee if you want to try vermicomposting. 

Should you use old horse manure or fresh horse manure? YES

Get all you can of horse manure and bedding. It can be too hot to put direct on garden veggies, so allow it to go thru a good heat cycle. Other than that, it is hard to go wrong with manure. There is a very remote possibility the manure could harbor residual herbicides or wormers, but IMO, the possibility is so remote and for all practical matters impossible to detect.


----------



## Forerunner

Thanks, DEKE, for taking up for me while I was *ahem* just now hauling in about 17 tons of really soupy sale barn manure. :yuck:

I think DEKE hit the highlights unless there are other specifics ?

My screen name..... well, it was a bold notion, I suppose, but I've undertaken many activities that lots of folks say we should all be doing for ourselves, you know.....self-sufficiency stuff that Grandpop of yesteryear just took for granted.

So, it was either Latecomer, or Forerunner.......and I chose the latter. :grin:

ETA......could you accumulate that old wine in glass carboys and see if it would ever go to vinegar ?
I know some of that stuff has chemical inhibitors against such bacterial activity, but do they all ?

Otherwise, save it for stuff like New Years and birthdays and pour it over the piles for those occasions.
I don't know about other's experiences, but my red wriggles are PARTY animals !


----------



## DEKE01

FR - 17 TONS!!! Well done Mr. Poopy Pants. 

Grapes - sorry, I missed your Q on wine the first reading. Good question and something I had never considered before, mostly because we virtually never drink in our house. I wondered if the alcohol would kill more of your bacteria than it would help. So that got me reading about 20 different sites. I couldn't find any university extension sites with scientific data to prove beer and wine are good, but there were lots of folks extolling its virtues. I can't find any negatives on using wine and beer unless you have a very wet pile that can't take any more liquids. So that would not be an alcohol problem but the water portion of the wine could be enough to make your pile go rancid and anaerobic. 

But I think that is mostly a theoretical problem, not a real one. We get 60 inches of rain a year and sometimes that is measured in 5 - 6 inches a day and I've never had a problem with one of my piles getting rancid. Maybe up north with a heavy snow load melting in the pile for a month or so, that might be a bad time to add wine. 

Several of the sites I read actually recommended beer and wine, but beer more so, as a compost activator. Apparently the sugars in the beverages make the desirable micro party animals fat and fertile, in a really good mood for procreation, IOW it's not much different than with people.


----------



## Grapescott

Dekes ..... The pile of old poo from our last horse farm developed a crusty outter shell that could have used some moisture... Maybe I can dump some vino there to see.. It's a teeny pile..(sorry Tim).... Enclosed in a four by pallet structure..

All that said..gents.... I'm a bit concerned when the weather turns to summer here in The northeast that I don't let my future piles setting all of south jersey aflame!!!!

Scott


----------



## Forerunner

In all my experience with compost, I've never seen any hint of a tendency to combustion.

Simply ensuring adequate moisture assuages my already minuscule concerns.

DEKE........ just the other day, I was admonishing an acquaintance in that a man should never mess with a fellow who can take a Ten Ton S*** when and wherever he chooses (in reference to my heavy semi-axle dump trailer and a bit of a local feud in the works over here)

:huh:












:grin:


.


----------



## YamahaRick

I finally had a chance to visit this guy's farm. His primary focus is worms, but the castings/compost are becoming a larger aspect of his operation (from a revenue standpoint).

Here is a 2012 video from the Georgia Farm Bureau - it's how I learned of him:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_QhRKgDjQ"]South Georgia Farmer Raises Millions Of Worms [/ame]

It was late in the day when I was there, so my pics are not that great. But I hope to either emulate his operation (to a degree), or be a regular buyer of his compost.


----------



## DEKE01

Grapes - I've had big piles, 60' x 30' x 12' high and never saw a hint of combustion. That big one was all pine wood, pine straw, no manure, no added moisture. Other piles nearly as big with the same pines but tons of manure and bedding added, no added moisture, no fire problems. Big pine piles covered in dirt, no fires. I've had all manure/bedding piles, mixed piles, small piles, dead animal piles, I can't make fire. 

Everything I've read on compost fires was it takes really big, very dry piles, containing hay or straw, and enclosed in some walled system that prevented air flow.


----------



## DEKE01

FR, with your penchant for getting yourself into deep sheet, it is good that you have learned to enjoy it. :happy2:


----------



## Forerunner

Contentment is a choice.


:heh:



.


----------



## Forerunner

Wow, Yamaha......... Kinda like Forest Gump meets Joel Salatin meets Mr. Green Jeans !!

All those wrigglers........ :bow:


----------



## Grapescott

Thanks guys for setting straight my misconception about fire worries... 

So let me get this right- say wifey cooks up a chicken roaster, we carve it up for the week, I can take the balance and bury it a couple feet under (in) my pile and my four pups ain't gonna mess with it? From what I've read it appears and odors are contained


----------



## Forerunner

Yup. Meat is no problem if buried in the pile deep enough.

The carbon cover is rather key, as well.....for the fact that it absorbs and eliminates odor.

What is your best carbon source out there ?


----------



## Grapescott

Forerunner said:


> What is your best carbon source out there ?


Oak leaves? And pine needles......and bark from firewood stacks...

Even though we live in the pinelands this area is unique because of the over abundance of oak trees... Soo many trees in fact ,please sir, answer for me my question about shade piles? Would building piles in dense shade still get them cooking?


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, absolutely.

Shade is far more conducive to happy microbes, moisture retention, non-leeching of surface nutrients, etc. than ever full sun......but then a good carbon cover will protect from sunlight, as well.

To answer your question simply, you can compost in the dark and the microbes wouldn't know it.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Grapescott said:


> Oak leaves? And pine needles......and bark from firewood stacks...
> 
> Even though we live in the pinelands this area is unique because of the over abundance of oak trees... Soo many trees in fact ,please sir, answer for me my question about shade piles? Would building piles in dense shade still get them cooking?



Oak leaves are my main source of carbon here. I'm blessed with an enormous amount of them every fall,To the point that I'm almost short of nitrogen until grass cutting season rolls around.

Until then I'm scraping by on every smidgen of manure I can find.


----------



## Grapescott

:happy::happy:Well- seems I can source some poo from the farm....that container is the six foot tall version....that pile is over seven feet tall....


----------



## Grapescott

Jeez...why do some forums have the pics come out sideways....a little help here?


----------



## SmokeEater2

Now I have Poo envy. :awh:


----------



## Forerunner

I have to go into my photo album, hit edit, and flip my pics 360 degrees, ending up right where I started with it, and then post it......if I want it to load right side up. Only HT requires that extra effort.
I chalk it up to a sardonic sense of amusement on the part of Admin.

:shrug:


----------



## Freya

DEKE01 said:


> Well done Mr. Poopy Pants.


Someone so needs to send Tim this tshirt! :hysterical:


----------



## Forerunner

There's a t-shirt for this ? :huh:


----------



## YamahaRick

Grapescott said:


> Jeez...why do some forums have the pics come out sideways....a little help here?


Quit holding your camera phone upright, instead of horizontal, when taking the pic. [added] Or is it a forum-specific issue?


----------



## Grapescott

Thanks Rick.....

:nanner:tomorrow I start hauling this home....got the final approval of the barn manager....she said if I could haul that container home I am welcomed to it...l!

Quick question-can I bury N in a manure pile like I will have or will there be too much N...and, will adding my oak leaves help bring it back to balance...?


----------



## Forerunner

Oak leaves will be your friends........LOTS of oak leaves.......

Always err on the side of carbon excess, if you must err.


----------



## DEKE01

Grapescott said:


> Thanks Rick.....
> 
> :nanner:tomorrow I start hauling this home....got the final approval of the barn manager....she said if I could haul that container home I am welcomed to it...l!
> 
> Quick question-can I bury N in a manure pile like I will have or will there be too much N...and, will adding my oak leaves help bring it back to balance...?


Where are you generally in the world? I can tell by the mud it is no where near me. But if you were, I could load and dump that roll off for you. You might just find a local HT friend if you told us the general locale.


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## Grapescott

Well, made some progresss today, trailer back home and piled..check out the hotness of that pile!


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## DEKE01

My promotional efforts are starting to pay off. As I was working today a guy drove up with two 30 gal trashcans filled with the leavings of two butchered hogs. Just what I needed for my trash pile to heat up.


----------



## COWS

The question was asked abut compost piles heating enough to catch fire. Doubtful IMO because of the relatively small size, however, here is some background information:

Sawmills by their nature saw green logs. The green sawdust can catch fire, but not always. Locally, the procedure in the past was to take a portable sawmill into a wooded tract and was up the logs as they were dragged out. The sawdust pile was left there. For years I and others shoveled loads of sawdust from a couple of these piles. At one location in the forks of a road the sawmill was set up near some small to medium sized gullies which they filled with sawdust. The area was nicely smoothed over and the gullies filled up. The sawdust caught fire and unfortunately burned out the gullies, which are unfortunately still there. I don't know that the sawdust heated up and caught fire, but suspected it. Fires are fairly common at sawmills for other reasons.

Later large sawmills built "wigwams" which were large conical steel structures. Sawdust was dumped in at the top and burned. Openings at the bottom provided a draft. They caused serious local air pollution and laws stopped that. For a while a large local sawmill spread the sawdust on the ground, but soon they developed a market for the sawdust. Perhaps it was used in paper mills, later possibly in particle board. Some mills used sawdust to burn for fuel to kiln dry lumber, presumably after developing air pollution procedures.

BTW, mills now debark the logs and chip up the slabs, sending the chips to paper mills or make them into chipboard. They try to waste nothing.

COWS


----------



## bluefish

I've a question that isn't exactly compost related, but I'm not sure who else to ask. We have our greywater run into a pit that is filled with sawdust. Every so often I clean it out and put in a compost pile. Right now I'm trying to get a pasture perked up and going good. Can I put this stuff, spread thinly, straight on the pasture or should it go through the composting first?


----------



## SmokeEater2

Forerunner said:


> Oak leaves will be your friends........LOTS of oak leaves.......
> 
> Always err on the side of carbon excess, if you must err.




Oak leaves are the only thing I have enough of.. besides rocks. I've been piling them up for a carbon stockpile until I have enough N sources to make use of them.

I could really use a coupla' dead cows right now. :grumble: Or a semi load of manure.


----------



## Forerunner

thermopkt said:


> I've a question that isn't exactly compost related, but I'm not sure who else to ask. We have our greywater run into a pit that is filled with sawdust. Every so often I clean it out and put in a compost pile. Right now I'm trying to get a pasture perked up and going good. Can I put this stuff, spread thinly, straight on the pasture or should it go through the composting first?


I would compost it. The stuff would make great foundation for the pile.
I really like the process you've described, BTW.


----------



## Forerunner

SmokeEater2 said:


> Oak leaves are the only thing I have enough of.. besides rocks. I've been piling them up for a carbon stockpile until I have enough N sources to make use of them.
> 
> I could really use a coupla' dead cows right now. :grumble: Or a semi load of manure.


No sale barns or horse farms, close ?


----------



## bluefish

Forerunner said:


> I would compost it. The stuff would make great foundation for the pile.
> I really like the process you've described, BTW.



I was afraid that was the answer. :bored:

I just don't have enough, umm, stuff to go around. :happy2:


----------



## Forerunner

I would think that grey water-saturated sawdust would almost stand alone .........

Anything you could add would only be icing on an already likely delicious cake. :shrug:


----------



## SmokeEater2

Forerunner said:


> No sale barns or horse farms, close ?



Not anymore, The local sale barn closed down a few years ago. I did check with all the horse and cattle people I know of, But everything is healthy right now.


----------



## Forerunner

I was more referring to getting a load of manure rather than the dead critters......


----------



## SmokeEater2

Manure is getting tough to come by here. There is a large retiree population in town and they have discovered (Or always knew) how well their gardens and lawns do when dressed with manure. 

I can't fault 'em for that but they have made it tougher to find a steady supply of manure. A riding stable has started selling their stall cleanings and a rabbit farm sells theirs by the bag. I have one steady supply of horse stall clean outs as well as my own animals but I would really like to find more.

At least it's getting used for a purpose and not wasted. When lawn mowing weather gets here I have several lawn care guys that bring me all their clippings so things will be looking up then.


----------



## Candy

SmokeEater2 said:


> When lawn mowing weather gets here I have several lawn care guys that bring me all their clippings so things will be looking up then.


How right you are, my stepson has a landscaping business and he brings us several loads of grass and then leaves a season, it is great, and for our two gardens enough compost along with our house compost and chicken house clean-outs.


----------



## Forerunner

Green grass clippings and brown/browning leaves make very serviceable stand-alone.......but chicken scrapings to boot ?

*wipes a tear of happiness*

Pitchers, perchance........ Candy ?


----------



## Rustaholic

Really Forerunner, 177 pages?
You need to sell this as an e-book.


----------



## Forerunner

Or just donate it to posterity.........


----------



## Shine

Too bad you can't get any politicians fer yer hills...


----------



## Forerunner

The fat lady ain't sung yet, either........ :heh:


----------



## ajeoc

My pile is pretty well buried and blocked by snow piles. Each week I take out a 5 gallon bucket or two of kitchen scraps and coffee grounds from work. I use a shovel or fork to get down past the frozen cap to where there are a few warm spots.... Looking forward to some warmer days.


----------



## calfisher

My compost pile this year is infested with grub worms and pill bugs. Any ideas to get rid of them? We have about another 4 weeks and then it will be time to sift and spread in the garden. Last year the pill bugs were eating off the stems and stalks of everything.


----------



## Forerunner

Time to call in the chickens.


----------



## Midgard

Sounds like a good idea to me.


----------



## bmvf

Anybody know anything about compost power which uses heat from your compost pile to heat a building? I'm thinking of trying it for my shop. We have lines in the floor for heat which means all I need to buy is the plumbing parts to circulate the heat. I have a bunch of 3/4 pex pipe from my old watering system for my pasture so that's cheap enough. I would base my plans off of www.compostpower.org 

I posted on this thread a few months ago. I'm a dairy farmer and finding a place and a way to turn my piles is more of a problem than finding material. The wheels are turning on a project we're looking at which will convert our free stall barn into a compost bedded pack. I fell in love with the idea in 2008 when we considered building a new barn. Finances decided otherwise. With a compost bedded pack you turn the pile every day with a cultivator/plow or a rototiller. If managed correctly the pile should start to compost. New bedding (sawdust is best, other bedding must be chopped finely) is added when the pack starts to stick to the cows. The problems with such a system is that you need 100 sq/ft per cow which means a larger building than a free stall barn. The other problem is that you use much more bedding which adds cost. The benefits are increased animal production, fewer feet problems, lower cull rate and an alternative way to handle waste storage. We need to work out the details and come up with a plan and costs for the project.


----------



## Forerunner

I believe the idea of compost heat to be very sound and sustainable.
Once the costs of creating the closed loop were absorbed, interesting economic benefits would surface, some which were not even foreseen........
Might you be able to replace the sawdust with baled corn stalks from your own acreage ?
Tub grinders aren't cheap, per se, but the cost of a bale grinder would shortly be offset by the savings on sawdust and trucking.......and that bale grinder can mix feed as well as grind bedding carbon..... 
Then there would be the fertilizer and microbe value on the land.....

Mmmmmmm........... Whole darned concept makes my mouth water. :indif:


----------



## myheaven

Do you have a tmr mixer? You can grind the corn stalks with that. Or straw of any sort. But a rotor grinder oh yeah make my head spin and get me all hot and sweaty! Ask my dh talk grinders or tmr mixers and I'm pudding.


----------



## Elizabeth

bmvf- I have been reading up on this as well. I would like to make a pile to heat our greenhouse next winter, and possibly a second pile out by the barn to try to add a bit of heat to my chicken coop.


----------



## Forerunner

I built a chicken house on the south end of my barn......south-facing window array.....
Poured concrete perimeter foundation four feet deep to create a pit effect.
Room is approximately 10x26 feet.
I filled the pit with sawdust, about three feet deep, and let the birds in to poop, spill water, waste a bit of feed, etc. to the effect that they live on a four foot deep, enclosed compost pile.
They seem to appreciate the scratch and peck potential, and there is never a shortage of loose material to spread around asparagus and strawberry plants.


----------



## Lennard1974

Ok so I have read the whole thread and have been bitten by the compost bug...

We recently (October 2014) moved from a 1/10th acre rented lot in S. Louisiana to purchasing 5 acres in N Mississippi. 
So far I have layered oak leaves under a rabbit hutch...
Plus I'm building up my carbon reserves... So far I have a 5'x 10'x 5' snow fenced area of oak leaves piled up waiting for some N !
I figure if nothing else I can use some grass clippings come spring to mix into it. 
Oh yeah and have already disposed of several trapped possums In the small pile under the rabbit hutch. No smell at all!

PS. I "commune" with the rabbit hutch pile at least once per day..haha


----------



## Forerunner

Good to have you aboard, Lennard. 

Sounds like you've got your priorities straight. :thumb:

Congrats on the land upgrade........


----------



## bmvf

The cost to get my my compost power system running should be under $1000. Maintenance and other costs would be very low considering the closed loop could be reused. If I have enough pex pipe on hand I won't need to buy that. However, I'm doubting that I need 900 feet of pipe inside the compost pile as the website says. I only need to raise the temp in my shop to 55-60 degrees.

In regards to chopping bedding, I have a tub style TMR mixer with knives. It does a decent job of cutting balage or hay into size but there needs to be weight so the blade can cut. I can throw a bale of hay or straw into the mixer and process it to use in a pen but I can't process it small enough to use in a compost bedding pack. Also, I only grow forage on my acres so I don't have corn fodder or straw from grain crops to bale and use for bedding. All my bedding needs to be bought in.


----------



## Forerunner

What is your cheapest/most plentiful source of carbon, and what is the approximate cost per ton/ yard ?


----------



## bmvf

I get what they call animal bedding which is wooden skids that are chopped. The chips are then screened for mulch and the smaller stuff is used for bedding. I get that for $45 a yard. It works very well in freestalls and it keeps bedding packs dryer than straw bedding. 

I could use green sawdust from a large local sawmill but the experts say that using green sawdust in a compost pack for dairy cows isn't a good idea.


----------



## Forerunner

I'd be interested to hear why the experts say that of green sawdust.

Do you have any specifics or a link to your source for this ?

Now I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## myheaven

If I remember correctly what I have read about the green sawdust is due to the moisture and gasses given off by the drying saw dust also the bacteria. Here's a link for you Tim. 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHc22rD3GYSH_oM-uSLRa5P58T3Gw


----------



## Forerunner

I was thinking moisture and maybe tree species issues until they had a chance to neutralize somewhat.
I supposed if one is working with an enclosed area, gasses could be an issue.
Some logs do saw dryer than others, and there's always good ventilation.
I suppose there is why I'm not cut out for commercial livestock production.

Just leave me the leftovers and the rough ground........


----------



## bmvf

Green sawdust is higher in bacteria than dried sawdust. 

Working with cattle has its challenges. Obviously cattle cannot tell you when they feel sick or have an ache or pain. A good cattleman will see signs of problems and check the cow out. Hopefully he sees the problem early, makes a correct diagnosis, and treats the problem correctly. This is tough for anyone. Often I know there is a problem when milking. This cow doesn't have the milk she should or she limps, so I catch her and figure out what's wrong. 

The easiest thing to do is prevent these things from happening. This includes taking care of cows during the most stressful period of their lives, calving, which then leads into the most demanding period of their lives, milk production, which leads into another important period of their lives, milk production plus calf gestation. Bedding is very important because bacteria easily can get to the money maker, the udder and the teat end. A mastitis infection caused by bacteria is often mild but the serious cases can lead to dead quarters (teats), pregnancy abortion and even death. I've had a bad run of serious mastitis cases this past month. In 5 cases 2 are complete cures, 2 were culled because of total milk loss, and one died. Interestingly, the one that died is almost completely gone in my compost pile save for the bones. I know because I added another mortality to the pile this morning and turned the first cow. 

Sorry to get off topic, often when I talk farming people like to hear it!


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, not too far off topic......

My best friend is a natural dairy man over in Missouri......

My cousin up north of Sterling, Illinois was the last of three generations to milk a hundred seventy head with the two huge barns for square bales, two huge silos.....the works, old school.
They hauled manure out to an old gravel pit on the property, every day.......and had what was likely the biggest compost/manure pile I had ever seen until beginning my own ventures......

And, I've been hand milking anywhere from one to four Jerseys, off and on, since I was 13.


----------



## Studhauler

Here she is.





Forerunner said:


> .......and, she's not camera shy. She loves her paparazzi.


.


----------



## Forerunner

.......and now we're milking her daughter, and a gift from the Missouri herd.


----------



## calfisher

Well, I re stacked and moved the pile, mixing in some bone meal with beneficial nematodes and DE. After watering and a few days, the bug population is down 75%. I have one of those long stem thermometers that is saying 125 degrees inside the pile. How hot should it get?


----------



## Forerunner

125 is a good start.

155 is about maximum desirable, and 5 degrees either side of that is doable.

Keep us posted on that temp over the next few days/weeks, as that sort of thing is of interest to those of us too poor or too crude to have our very own really cool compost thermometer. :indif:

Have you procured either Joseph Jenkins' Humanure Handbook or the old, unabridged hardback, Rodale's Complete Book of Composting ?

They both go into serious temperature science, and would greatly enhance your knowledge base. 
......And while we're talking books, let's not forget Perter Tompkins and Christopher Bird and Secret Life of Plants and Secrets of the Soil.

Mind blowing stuff, all.


----------



## bmvf

Forerunner said:


> 125 is a good start.
> 
> Have you procured either Joseph Jenkins' Humanure Handbook or the old, unabridged hardback, Rodale's Complete Book of Composting ?
> 
> They both go into serious temperature science, and would greatly enhance your knowledge base.
> ......And while we're talking books, let's not forget Perter Tompkins and Christopher Bird and Secret Life of Plants and Secrets of the Soil.
> 
> Mind blowing stuff, all.


Just bought the Rodale book. $4.00 total cost in which $3.99 is shipping! I love Amazon! http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...91&sr=8-1&keywords=rodale+guide+to+composting


----------



## Forerunner

I'd be jealous of that one cent price tag.......if my Old Pop hadn't given me my copy, outright.

:grin:

Fabulous catch.........


----------



## WIWinterman

I appreciate all the discussion on this thread.:goodjob:
Now it's my turn to ask a question! )long time lurker, first time poster)

Two years ago, after getting into this thread, I started hauling home five-gallon pails of raw woodchips from the township dump. Lots of green leaves mixed in. All I had was a Corolla and a trunk - but I could fit 6 pails. I was pretty proud :happy: !

Having no space on my citylot, I just dumped a pile in my backyard all summer long. It's now about the size of a picnic table.

They've been sitting since then, slowly doing their 'thing'. But - I need to clean up the pile for more space. (i've got some other locations for compost)
Should I screen out the "good" material (for the garden) and mulch the larger leftover pieces (on my raspberries)?

I've got a 1/4" hardware cloth screen rack.


----------



## Forerunner

I wouldn't worry about the bigger stuff, just use it all for mulch between rows....especially tater rows, seeing as there's no manure in your mix.
Then till it all in this fall, or not......

Of course if you're just itching to screen some compost for therapeutic purposes, well.......

:grin:

Good to have you posting.


----------



## calfisher

Deep fryer thermometer

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Brinkmann-12-in-Deep-Fry-Thermometer-812-9103-S/202300607

Holding at 130 at various places around pile.


----------



## bmvf

My library is getting larger with educational books that I bought on Amazon for very cheap. A number of them were bought for a penny plus shipping. They always are in good shape.


----------



## am1too

Would anyone here plant in straight compost without dirt (sand/clay)? I think there is a difference between dirt and soil.


----------



## Forerunner

Some crops do well in pure (aged a couple years or more) compost.

Some like a little more bland base to sink roots in.

My experience is that onions, carrots, garlic, corn, melons, tomatoes, sweet taters and cole crops all do well in ridiculously high percentages of compost.
I'm sure there are many others.....

Anyone else have direct positive experience, or not, with particular crops in pure or nearly pure compost ?


----------



## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Would anyone here plant in straight compost without dirt (sand/clay)? I think there is a difference between dirt and soil.


I have an aversion to buying potting soil. Too much $$$ for too little benefit. I have used semi-sterile compost as a seed starting medium. Vermicompost is great for that. 

One of the projects on my list is to make a big solar oven for cooking compost and soil. Florida has a big nematode problem and sterilization is the best organic solution that I know of.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Some crops do well in pure (aged a couple years or more) compost.
> 
> Some like a little more bland base to sink roots in.
> 
> My experience is that onions, carrots, garlic, corn, melons, tomatoes, sweet taters and cole crops all do well in ridiculously high percentages of compost.
> I'm sure there are many others.....
> 
> Anyone else have direct positive experience, or not, with particular crops in pure or nearly pure compost ?


Did taters in straight compost hilled with ground up leaves last year. Digging them was great. Just scooped them up with my hands.

This year I've started onions in the same place.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> I have an aversion to buying potting soil. Too much $$$ for too little benefit. I have used semi-sterile compost as a seed starting medium. Vermicompost is great for that.
> 
> One of the projects on my list is to make a big solar oven for cooking compost and soil. Florida has a big nematode problem and sterilization is the best organic solution that I know of.


Would love to see some plans and or ideas about such an oven.


----------



## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Would love to see some plans and or ideas about such an oven.


So would I. All I can figure out to do is build a large typical solar oven so that I can do about 20 gallons a batch. That should give me enough seed starter potting soil.


----------



## WIWinterman

Forerunner said:


> I wouldn't worry about the bigger stuff, just use it all for mulch between rows....
> Of course if you're just itching to screen some compost for therapeutic purposes, well.......


Thanks for the reply. I hadn't considered row mulching. I'll try that.

YES therapy; much needed for us "Drooling Lurkers"



...hmm... drooling in the compost... :idea:


----------



## Forerunner

Waste not-want not.

:thumb:


----------



## DEKE01

WIWinterman said:


> drooling in the compost... :idea:


not to worry, drool is perfectly compostable!

:happy2:


----------



## Shine

Whoo Hooo - Got my first Compost Book. :walk:

Thanks a lot FR, now I've got to 'spain its presence on my coffee table...


----------



## Forerunner

What a conversation starter, already !!!!

:bouncy:

Tell 'em I sent yuh. :shrug:

On second thought..........


----------



## DEKE01

It looks like I've made a good connection. There is a local wild animal sanctuary that is clearing the sand pines from a couple of hundred acres. Sand pines are mostly useless, fall over easily, even the pulp/paper mills aren't happy to get them. I parked my chipper at his place for the next 3 weeks and he has 40 - 50 college spring breakers coming to help clear and chip. The kids won't get to operate the chipper, too dangerous, but they will carry the logs to keep the chipper crew busy. I trained the crew today; all 3 of them had experience with chipping and still had all their arms and legs. 

In an hour we blew about 5 yards of chips into my dumper. He's promising me a full 11 yard dumper every day for the next 3 weeks. He already had 50 trees down which is maybe two loads. We'll see. It's only 10 miles from the farm which is another positive.


----------



## Forerunner

The closest I can come to that is the occasional run where the electric coop comes through, clearing brush under power lines. They have dumped a few loads on my two acre lot up the road (right off the highway) but usually they dump a few miles off at a centralized locale and I load and haul at my leisure.

Doesn't happen often enough, though. :grump:


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> It looks like I've made a good connection. There is a local wild animal sanctuary that is clearing the sand pines from a couple of hundred acres. Sand pines are mostly useless, fall over easily, even the pulp/paper mills aren't happy to get them. I parked my chipper at his place for the next 3 weeks and he has 40 - 50 college spring breakers coming to help clear and chip. The kids won't get to operate the chipper, too dangerous, but they will carry the logs to keep the chipper crew busy. I trained the crew today; all 3 of them had experience with chipping and still had all their arms and legs.
> 
> In an hour we blew about 5 yards of chips into my dumper. He's promising me a full 11 yard dumper every day for the next 3 weeks. He already had 50 trees down which is maybe two loads. We'll see. It's only 10 miles from the farm which is another positive.


I'm very green jealousy. My chip source seemed to all but dried up. Got a load today though. Unfortunately it isn't 11 yards. Maybe 3 at best.


----------



## RomeGrower

I have a big pile of chips from wood we had cleared on our land a few weeks ago. It's beautiful. I can usually get a free load from tree crews in the area. I need to look for them again soon.


----------



## DEKE01

Looks like my new wood supplier, the animal sanctuary http://forestanimalrescue.org/, is working out well. Monday, 2 short loads, maybe 15 yards total. The problem was the chipper was blowing chips everywhere. We probably chipped 25 yards but only 15 stayed in the dumper. Then it occurred to me to use the dumper roll up cover tarp to serve as a back stop. You can see the tarp sticking up in the background of the photo. So now the chipper blows into the tarp and the chips fall into the dumper with very little leakage. 

Yesterday a solenoid that activates the hydraulics went out, so no chips. It took all day to find the right part and get it to the farm. But today we got 3 full loads, 30+ yards, in about 4 total hours of chipping. 

The college kids helping out are Forerunner's neighbors, from Illinois State U. Good kids, almost all of them are full of hustle and hard work. We had them bringing 16 ft logs, 8" diameter, out of the woods. They would put 4 to 6 kids on a 200 - 300 pound log and carry them to the chipper. The kids with less hustle would pull brush and tops to the chipper. My chipper never worked so hard, grinding almost non stop for the 1.25 hours needed to fill the dumper. 

This is about a 3rd of the kids involved. They broke into 3 groups and the other groups were building pens and pulling fence for future additions to the sanctuary.


----------



## elkhound

deke01 is a slave driver...lol....you cheated though...forerunner raised all his help....roflmao


----------



## DEKE01

elkhound said:


> deke01 is a slave driver...lol....you cheated though...forerunner raised all his help....roflmao


There is a method to my madness. I'm assisting these kids with understanding the value of their education. At the end of the day I asked for a show of hands for who was ready to drop out of college and I would hire them as a full time chipper operator. I got lots of groans and moans, but no takers on the job offer.


----------



## am1too

elkhound said:


> deke01 is a slave driver...lol....you cheated though...forerunner raised all his help....roflmao


Get em any way ya can. Forerunner can I have your crew next?


----------



## Forerunner

Good luck getting them all in one place at the same time. :indif:


----------



## RomeGrower

What Northern kids wouldn't want to be in Florida in March?


----------



## Forerunner

Here's a fresh one for yuhz.... 

What are some of the average prices per ton in your various areas of the country, for quality, finished compost ?

Retail and wholesale......


----------



## bluefish

Forerunner said:


> Here's a fresh one for yuhz....
> 
> What are some of the average prices per ton in your various areas of the country, for quality, finished compost ?
> 
> Retail and wholesale......



I don't know about per ton, but the local landfill here composts all the city tree trimming and such as well as that sort of stuff that people bring in. They sell if for $10 a pickup load.

For being in a very conservative, backwoods ******* area, I can't believe how much composting goes on here. All the local ranchers use every bit of their winter feedlot waste on the summer pastures and hayfields. While in some ways that's awesome, it makes it a bit harder for people like me who would love to have all that stuff.


----------



## Forerunner

Now......don't be knockin' those backwoods ******* composters. 

:indif:















:grin:




Yeah, municipal operations can sell cheap enough due to subsidizations and the fact that they pretty much have to get rid of the stuff, anyways.
Telling, though, how all them backwoodsers know the value and make full use of their own.

:thumb:

If you really need some raw materials to get a good pile up and cookin', come see me sometime.


----------



## bluefish

Forerunner said:


> Now......don't be knockin' those backwoods ******* composters.
> 
> :indif:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :grin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, municipal operations can sell cheap enough due to subsidizations and the fact that they pretty much have to get rid of the stuff, anyways.
> Telling, though, how all them backwoodsers know the value and make full use of their own.
> 
> :thumb:
> 
> If you really need some raw materials to get a good pile up and cookin', come see me sometime.



Heehee, I'd love to come see your operation someday, but you're a fair bit away from Montana. And I hate roadtrips. All that sitting and sitting in the car when I'd rather be out doing and moving. 

I do what I can here and have a much-smaller-than-you-but-bigger-than-some operation going. I have piles big enough to bury a goat, it's a start. I just have to move much more slowly than I would like and make excruciating choices each year about what/where gets to compost available. :bored:

This way I never get bored because I have nothing to do. Or something. :huh:


----------



## am1too

bluefish said:


> Heehee, I'd love to come see your operation someday, but you're a fair bit away from Montana. And I hate roadtrips. All that sitting and sitting in the car when I'd rather be out doing and moving.
> 
> I do what I can here and have a much-smaller-than-you-but-bigger-than-some operation going. I have piles big enough to bury a goat, it's a start. I just have to move much more slowly than I would like and make excruciating choices each year about what/where gets to compost available. :bored:
> 
> This way I never get bored because I have nothing to do. Or something. :huh:


I get most of my compostable material pre mixed. Have to drag it 25 miles though. Right now I'm hauling compost that distance. Will be hauling for a couple weeks maybe a month. Between 8 and 12 yards a week.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Here's a fresh one for yuhz....
> 
> What are some of the average prices per ton in your various areas of the country, for quality, finished compost ?
> 
> Retail and wholesale......


Finished compost like what I get is $5 ad cu ft. I love the black gold I get for free. That makes what I get worth bout $350-$400 a trip. Not bad for 2.5 hours of my time and $10 for gas.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Now......don't be knockin' those backwoods ******* composters.
> 
> :indif:
> 
> :grin:
> 
> Yeah, municipal operations can sell cheap enough due to subsidizations and the fact that they pretty much have to get rid of the stuff, anyways.
> Telling, though, how all them backwoodsers know the value and make full use of their own.
> 
> :thumb:
> 
> If you really need some raw materials to get a good pile up and cookin', come see me sometime.


Costs them less than taking it to a land fill.


----------



## bja105

I found a dead sheep next to my pile today! I guess my neighbor figured it out. Now my microbes have a sheep to go with their sawdust.


----------



## Forerunner

Yer on the map, now.....

:thumb:


----------



## InvalidID

Forerunner said:


> Some crops do well in pure (aged a couple years or more) compost.
> 
> Some like a little more bland base to sink roots in.
> 
> My experience is that onions, carrots, garlic, corn, melons, tomatoes, sweet taters and cole crops all do well in ridiculously high percentages of compost.
> I'm sure there are many others.....
> 
> Anyone else have direct positive experience, or not, with particular crops in pure or nearly pure compost ?


 I've done zucchini and tomatoes in nearly pure (not all the way finished) manure compost with tremendous results. Just can't water them very often...


----------



## SLFarmMI

Thanks Forerunner for starting this thread. I finally managed to get through all 180 pages of it. I suck at making compost but at least now I know why my composting efforts suck so I can fix it.

I've now know:
1. My pile is way too small. I don't have near the mass of 2 pickup beds full. Maybe not even a half a pickup bed. Which means DH was right when he said the pile was too small. I hate it when that happens. 

2. I don't have near enough nitrogen in the mix. No wonder my pile is just laying there saying, "you want me to do what?". Will need to find a source for more nitrogen. Haven't yet convinced DH to start communing with the pile so I'll have to practice my feminine wiles on him.

3. We have zero equipment so making the size pile with a garden fork and shovel is either a) going to kill me or b) get me in the best shape of my life. Not sure which yet.

So thanks for the great thread. I'm looking forward to creating a decent pile now that I have a clue what I'm doing.


----------



## Forerunner

InvalidID said:


> I've done zucchini and tomatoes in nearly pure (not all the way finished) manure compost with tremendous results. Just can't water them very often...


What happens when you water them too often ?


----------



## Forerunner

SLFarmMI said:


> Thanks Forerunner for starting this thread.
> 
> 3. We have zero equipment so making the size pile with a garden fork and shovel is either a) going to kill me or b) get me in the best shape of my life. Not sure which yet.


Welcome. 

Don't sweat the manual pile building (euphemistically, that is.......)
A great deal can be accomplished in a month, just working at it a half hour or even less each day.....a few five gallon buckets in a car trunk or pickup bed, at a time.
Pace yourself at the beginning.
The maniacal composter bug will bite soon enough (about the same morning you first see steam rising from the pile) and you'll be hauling, shoveling and pitchforking like there's no tomorrow.....


----------



## InvalidID

Forerunner said:


> What happens when you water them too often ?


 Root rot I think. I'm not a great gardener so I'd not know for sure but I think they basically drown as the stuff holds water too well.


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## Forerunner

Aha.

Well......mixed with soil, compost is said to be great for drainage, as well as moisture retention during dry spells.

I suspect the same is true of straight compost that is truly finished working and thoroughly mellowed.


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## InvalidID

Yeah, the key here is unfinished doesn't drain I believe... It does however hold enough water and goodies to grow killer tomatoes, or at least the few times I tried it.


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## am1too

Have some mold/fungus growing on top my compost this year. Its spotty/blotchy in I'd say 12/18 inch circles. Compost is dry on outside until the inch of rain this morning. I'm sure it won't hurt anything. Just interesting. Just turned it under. My month old pile has already shrunk bout a foot.


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## KFhunter

my compost is on fire, is that ok? 

Just asking about the quality of compost that's been burning some, there's no chance the fire could spread or catch on. 

It's a pile about 40 feet long, 20 wide and 15 feet tall. It's smoldering a bit in the middle. Most of it is old hay I couldn't sell for water damage and moldy. It's got old compost mixed in too.


----------



## Forerunner

I'd put the fire out if I could, but whatever burns will just be straight ash, which is good for acid soils and raises your potassium level.


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## am1too

KFhunter said:


> my compost is on fire, is that ok?
> 
> Just asking about the quality of compost that's been burning some, there's no chance the fire could spread or catch on.
> 
> It's a pile about 40 feet long, 20 wide and 15 feet tall. It's smoldering a bit in the middle. Most of it is old hay I couldn't sell for water damage and moldy. It's got old compost mixed in too.


Needs lots of water. Mine is currently drowning from the rain. Got to turn it over some. Dang that's lots of forking. But its easy forking cause its all down hill.


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## Shoestringer

Just cleaned out the winter bedding from my neighbour's chicken coop. I get to keep it for compost. His girls waste a lot of feed the way they are set up. I got wondering what effect that might have on the pile and on the finished product. I just put it all in a low spot to rot down and make the basis for a small garden in the future. I will likely toss on some other manure and used bedding.


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## bobp

Have you had any luck with composting round bales of hay? I have 36 4x5s left over from the first cutting from last year and noting to feed it to... this past winter I took two and buried them under 4-5' of wood chip compost from 4 12 yd loads of chips the summer before. they were thoroughly composted. But I was thinking the hay would be additional bacteria fodder.. this spring I uncovered them and still had 2 round bales... for the most part no composting happened.

I'm thinking now I need to rent a tub grinder from our local dealer... if it's used and doesn't have a down payment on it, it, can be rented. 


my biggest issue is being 25 miles from town... t's hard to get anyone to haul anything out to me... 

the City of Fayetteville charges 20$ per 4yd scoop for they're compost... they do it right monitoring temps ect.... they got rid of the guy that would just load you for 20$... durn.. 

none of the other municipality's near here really have a commercial program.. 

We have a two phase need.... mulch for moisture retention and grass reduction around the plants.....
This has me thinking green manureing... planting/drilling cover crops in the aisles between the berries of Sudan cold grazer rye and clover and mowing them with a side discharge mower onto my berry rows....this would work as mulch and as a soil builder over time.... if I fertilized the cover crop well I could get several tons of it on the rows in this manner... mow bi weekly until the Sudan says quit... 

have you had experience with this?


----------



## MOgal

Bob, I'm going out on a limb here to answer your question. If your chips are already composted, there probably isn't enough nitrogen left to work on the "browns" in your hay. We usually have 1-2 round bales left at the end of the season so I ask the neighbor who puts up the hay on shares to place them near the garden or where I want a new growing space when he puts the new hay in the barn. I don't have the equipment or physical strength to actually compost them by mixing with other ingredients even on that scale rather than your many bales. However, I do throw fresh manure on top of the bales--I have him place them flat side down so I can unroll the layers to spread as mulch--and keep them watered if there isn't adequate rainfall . That seems to encourage low temp composting from the top down although I have come upon sections that are steaming when I spread the mulch. I've never had a problem introducing weed seeds from the bales I handle like this but do when I spread the cleanout from the hay feeders which tells me the weed seeds are there. I usually leave those bales a year or two before I put them on the garden.

I don't have experience with Sudan but I mow in such a way that the clippings are thrown along but not onto the bases of the fruit trees and berries and so far so good. Our yard out near the berries has a lot of red clover that makes a terrific mulch/compost layer. 

All that hay should do wonders for your water retention. After all the rain of recent days, I've been spreading an old bale this afternoon and it feels like I'm walking on a sponge.


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## bobp

I'm sure the nitrogen was the issue your correct. On the left over I let a guy cut my hay on the halves. My half was being fed to some cows on a lease place. The cows were sold so I have nowhere to go with my hay. 

I strongly believe in to grow anything you must start with the soil. building the soil is a tough job being so far from everything. Hence thinking if composting the hay to help with it.


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## bobp

The Kerr Center for Sustainable Agriculture has done extensive research on cover cropping and green manuring. Its become common place in many orchards and vineyards. 
I was just pondering the possibilities of increasing biomass and tilth with greenmanuring without tilliage. My crops are long term and tilling under is not really an option. However we are fixing to get ready to prep the next black berry field and this may very well be something I do.


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## Forerunner

If I were going to compost big round bales, I'd stand them on end, to catch and retain more moisture, and position them in such a way as to contain manure or grass clippings or other nitrogen/bacteria source and let sit for a year.


----------



## MOgal

Aha! So I've been onto something all these years composting round bales!

Thanks for your corroboration, Forerunner. 

Yep, Bob, it all starts with good soil. It's a lot of work in the beginning, especially if you are using one woman power, but pays off in the long run with plant heath and productivity, fewer weeds, insect pests. Now if I could just get rid of the rabbits! I disturbed a nest in that bale yesterday with 2 babies in it, then saw a half grown rabbit. Yesterday I saw an adult and last week a tiny one probably just off the nest. I can't tell you the damage they do. And we have dogs and cats, just not interested in rabbits.


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## bobp

I shall chew on that... certainly sounds easier than what I was thinking... Thanks...I was just thinking if I could borrow an un roller like ranchers use to feed on the ground with, I could unroll several passes in the same spot and windrow it up with the loader? it would be easier than hand pulling it apart.


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## bmvf

bobp said:


> The Kerr Center for Sustainable Agriculture has done extensive research on cover cropping and green manuring. Its become common place in many orchards and vineyards.
> I was just pondering the possibilities of increasing biomass and tilth with greenmanuring without tilliage. My crops are long term and tilling under is not really an option. However we are fixing to get ready to prep the next black berry field and this may very well be something I do.


As you may have read earlier on this thread, I have a dairy farm. We have been no-till for around 10 years. Since I need dairy feed my fields are in continuous corn for forage and fall seed/spring harvested forage like rye or triticale. So everything planted is harvested for feed, no residue is left. In 2007 my organic matter was below 3% but has slowly climbed to just under 6% for last years test. Having something growing 50 out of the 52 weeks of the year grows organic matter with root growth and decay. The real test has come the past few weeks as we've gotten over 8 inches of rain mostly from 5 massive storms. No gullies in my steep sloped fields,hardly any washing of debris. Meanwhile another local no-till farmer has tremendous washing mostly likely because he didn't plant a fall cover crop after beans last fall and instead went in early with corn this spring.

On the composting side. I had some rye balage I made last year that tested 78% moisture. Way too wet! It also had an imbalanced pH which could mean colostridium poisoning so I composted it. The particle size was huge with whole pieces of 24 inch rye. I could barely lift the pile with the forks on my skid loader because the forks wouldn't go through the pile but instead lifted the pile. After a week I noticed tremendous heat almost hitting 160 degrees. It is 4 weeks now and the pile is now black and very broken down except for a few chunks.


----------



## Forerunner

bmvf said:


> The real test has come the past few weeks as we've gotten over 8 inches of rain mostly from 5 massive storms. No gullies in my steep sloped fields,hardly any washing of debris.


This has been my experience, as well, and my steepest slopes were sand when I started......


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## haley1

here are some really good videos on cover cropping and they also try to get the cattle on the fields to pasture some of the cover crops and residue and they are having great success rebuild their soils and since their soils are better they are making more money since they don't need fertilizer and sprays 



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_L5n4VnEXo[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfe9PgMveZc[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uMPuF5oCPA[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_t-sVVzF0[/ame]


----------



## bmvf

In 2013 I planted a cover crop in one of my fields that consisted of triticale, annual ryegrass and tillage radish that I grazed with my dairy cows in fall and then spring. I had many questions from the neighbors when they saw those radishes which usually push up 6 inches and have a lot of foliage. Earlier that year (before the fence) I had a spot in my corn field that was packed so hard from manure tanker traffic that it left a 40 x 40 foot area clear with no corn. The corn planter couldn't get it in the ground. My cover crop mix, however, took care of the problem and when I planted sorghum sudan grass for grazing the following summer I saw no effects of compaction! 

Also in fall of 2013 I planted an oats/radish mix for fall grazing only. I planted corn into the ground spring 2014. We didn't need to burn down with herbicide before planting and ended up making one pass with herbicide when the corn was almost a foot tall. I have a pic of my dad (5' 9") standing in this field on June 23rd with corn up to his eyes. After chopping the corn for silage in August I planted a perennial grass mix for grazing without using herbicide because it the field was so clean. The stand is doing great and I won't spray it again.

I've read Gabe Browns material and he is good. My only concern with his methods is that he almost goes too far with his mixes. I think one had 17 species. Studies show that the more species you add the less each added species benefits you. So while a 17 species mix is better than a 10 species mix, you won't see the same difference in that mix than say a 3 species mix compared to a 10 species mix. Gabe was also using summer cover crops with fall cover crops which if planted at the wrong time could be a waste of money. So my thoughts are that if Gabe wants to do that go ahead, but for someone new keep it simpler. Try to mix a few different types of cover crops like peas, annual ryegrass, grain (rye, triticale, wheat, etc), crimson clover, and tillage radish for a late summer/fall mix.


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## am1too

MOgal said:


> Aha! So I've been onto something all these years composting round bales!
> 
> Thanks for your corroboration, Forerunner.
> 
> Yep, Bob, it all starts with good soil. It's a lot of work in the beginning, especially if you are using one woman power, but pays off in the long run with plant heath and productivity, fewer weeds, insect pests. Now if I could just get rid of the rabbits! I disturbed a nest in that bale yesterday with 2 babies in it, then saw a half grown rabbit. Yesterday I saw an adult and last week a tiny one probably just off the nest. I can't tell you the damage they do. And we have dogs and cats, just not interested in rabbits.


Your dogs may be feed to well. A couple weeks ago one of mine came to the house with a gray fox in her mouth. They love chasing the rabbits.


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## am1too

Very interesting discussion lately. Love it.


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## am1too

bobp said:


> Have you had any luck with composting round bales of hay? I have 36 4x5s left over from the first cutting from last year and noting to feed it to... this past winter I took two and buried them under 4-5' of wood chip compost from 4 12 yd loads of chips the summer before. they were thoroughly composted. But I was thinking the hay would be additional bacteria fodder.. this spring I uncovered them and still had 2 round bales... for the most part no composting happened.
> 
> I'm thinking now I need to rent a tub grinder from our local dealer... if it's used and doesn't have a down payment on it, it, can be rented.
> 
> 
> my biggest issue is being 25 miles from town... t's hard to get anyone to haul anything out to me...
> 
> the City of Fayetteville charges 20$ per 4yd scoop for they're compost... they do it right monitoring temps ect.... they got rid of the guy that would just load you for 20$... durn..
> 
> none of the other municipality's near here really have a commercial program..
> 
> We have a two phase need.... mulch for moisture retention and grass reduction around the plants.....
> This has me thinking green manureing... planting/drilling cover crops in the aisles between the berries of Sudan cold grazer rye and clover and mowing them with a side discharge mower onto my berry rows....this would work as mulch and as a soil builder over time.... if I fertilized the cover crop well I could get several tons of it on the rows in this manner... mow bi weekly until the Sudan says quit...
> 
> have you had experience with this?


I would just start picking up the bagged stuff at the curb. The main reason your hay did not compost was lack of air.


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## davewittwer

Forerunner,

First off let me say how inspiring your project is. I hope to get deeper into composting and this thread (at least the first 20 pages i've read) has lit a fire to do so. 

Forgive me if this has already been covered in the preceeding pages but i did notice that you get some heat from wood. What do you do with your ashes? Is there a benifit that can be had from the ashes produced from an exterior wood boiler? 

Dave


----------



## Forerunner

Absolutely!



Hello Dave, and welcome aboard the SS Mad Composter.

If you keep your fire woods free of too much other than native and clean woods (no preservatives, plastics, etc.) those ashes will be most appreciated by your legumes, especially.
Fruit trees and grapes also appreciate an occasional sprinkling.
Avoid putting wood ash, or lime (calcium based products) directly into the compost pile as they react negatively with nitrogen, driving that valuable nutrient into the atmosphere in the form of gas.


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## bobp

What is your opinion on adding charchol to the mulch or direct applying it to the soils. Not ash, but charchol. There are two plants near by that make it from saw Mill slab wood. It would be fairly easy to get.


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## bobp

We've been getting the old brown/dark sawdust from the local saw Mill to mulch with and have been adding to the compost pile too. We can unload most with the tractor but 3 trailerloads were completely by hand. We mulched the 64 new fruit trees and the garden and some Berry's too.


----------



## Forerunner

I have zero experience with charcoal, and have heard both, pros and cons, concerning it's use as a soil enhancement.
However, one of my closest and by far most knowledgeable organic farmer friends says he is sold on the practice, believing that form of carbon to be as good as any other as a nitrogen trap and general soil builder.

The ground up mulch I can definitely get behind....... :thumb:


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## bmvf

I've been thinking a few years about building a compost turner but didn't have any good ideas on what piece of equipment to base the composter off of..... until a few weeks ago. I'm thinking an old hay mower with roller conditioners would work. I'd remove the cutter head off, whether sickle or disk. I'd remove the top roller off which turns down to crimp hay. The bottom roller is what I'd use which turns up. I'd then find a beater off a silage wagon and attach it somehow to the bottom roller of the hay cutter. I'm hoping I could slide the roller through the silage wagon beater and fasten them together. It would have high RPMs and it should throw the material into a row as I move along. 

I'm hoping I can keep the cost down to $1,000. I'd have to find a used piece that isn't in haying condition but has the parts I need in working order.

I was wondering what you all think...


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## Forerunner

I don't think a hot, obviously working, well-constructed and C/N balanced pile ever needs turning......but opinions/preferences differ and your idea sounds plausible.
A front end loader works for general management of a pile, but the pile fluffing you describe would make for faster compost.


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## bmvf

While I do use a bucket or forks on the skid loader to turn my pile, I want something that will fluff it better. Also with some of the long material and chunks such as hay in my piles, I hope a composter will help rip them apart. I want compost quickly so my piles aren't so large and also so I get the product on fields and pastures quicker.


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## bobp

Well I had a stroke of luck this week with my composting efforts. The local utility folks were clearing right of ways and I scored two big loads of chips!

I have also finally gotten around to moving the old hay to the compost area. Still having trouble getting the tight portions to come apart. Broke a hydraulic hose yesterday trying to force it. Planning on mixing part of the chips into the hay pile, and I can we the pile from this location as well... I can get a truck above it or I have a hydrant 300' away too...


----------



## Forerunner

Now yer talkin'.



I have spent my share of time and heartache trying to "force" such things as tightly wrapped bales......
Let me suggest that you simply bury those portions in manure and see to it that moisture levels are adequate before letting the microbes take over for you......


----------



## bobp

Well we decided to go ahead and try the pitchfork and unroll method. It took some sweat but we ended up with 8 5-750# bales pulled completly apart. Then I scattered 12 scoops of chipper truck material, wood chips leaves hard wood and pine, including some needles, into the hay pile. 
Turned it over back and forth a few times, but it looks good, and the wood chips were actively hot and steaming.

Still got several bales left though. If I can find some manure in a decent quality I'll try it.


----------



## davewittwer

To bad i'm not to this point. A guy neer me lost a whole field of alfalfa to rain, selling for 0.25 a bail.


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## bobp

It's simple economics for us. We beleive strongly in building from the ground up to grow anything. We're in the process of pre planting prep work for our next feild of Blackberries. Hauling in large amounts of compost from elsewhere just isn't cost effective at this time. I'm doing all I can but its not enough, so since we have the hay laeft over and we aren't using it I'm going to compost it. 

Blackberries are a long term crop, so soil building to improve tilth, and structure, before planting seems a very urgent issue to me.


----------



## InvalidID

bmvf said:


> While I do use a bucket or forks on the skid loader to turn my pile, I want something that will fluff it better. Also with some of the long material and chunks such as hay in my piles, I hope a composter will help rip them apart. I want compost quickly so my piles aren't so large and also so I get the product on fields and pastures quicker.


 Perhaps a retired cement truck?


----------



## Forerunner

That's not even funny, ID......

What's the point in retiring if some clown is going to come along and put you back to work in an extreme composting operation ?

Sheeeeeesh

:indif:


Good idea, otherwise. 

Sure beats those little five gallon bucket crankers they used to advocate in here before we ran out the jokers and scoffers.


:whistlin:


----------



## DEKE01

My DW complained about a pile I created about 500' behind the house on the other side of a hay field. It is about 6' high and 12' in diameter, mostly waste hay, grass, and chipped trees, so I figured it would be fully composted and spread within 6 months. It was in full view when sitting on the back porch and she didn't like that it blocked the view of the woods. 

Last week I went out of town leaving her to build her horse arena and cleaning up some dead trees that were in danger of falling on fences. She had two helpers, two tractors, a chain saw, a chipper, and a dump trailer. They scraped off 6 inches of sod to create the footing for the arena and decided to pile the sod and the chipped trees in a pile to compost. 

Here's what I came home to. My little pile, the one she complained about, is to the left. Her pile is the mountain on the right, 12 feet high and about 60 feet in diameter. Apparently, while I was away, she caught the extreme composting bug. Her pile is made up from 7 or 8 loads a day for 8 days in my 11 cubic yard dumper. It has lots of sandy soil in it so at best it is going to shrink by half and is going to have to be loaded and moved again. 

That's her and our dog standing victoriously atop the mountain. 








[/URL][/IMG]


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## Forerunner

You are blessed among men........

:bow:


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## bobp

I'm gonna show this to my wife and let her know where the bars been set! Lol GREAT JOB!


----------



## haley1

just had the local village bring out about 640 yards of 3 year composted leaves/ yard waste

about 14 years ago they brought out 3000 yards of fresh leaves/ yard waste and over the years that rotted down to about 200 yard of prefect compost.


----------



## bobp

Found a really cool video for a homemade compost turner on Youtube...I really liked the idea.. looked simple enough... built using an old class two truck axel... I bet an old 9-11 inch 1 ton axle would do the trick... Find an old tractor and just leave it on it... no fuss no muss just faster processing, thus less space taken up? Forerunner your thoughts? 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LOoVNVgpWk[/ame]


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, mechanized compost turners make my head hurt.

But if it makes you fellers feel more productive, well.......


----------



## bobp

Do You see it as a waste of time?


----------



## Forerunner

Yes and no.

I have embraced Joseph Jenkins' approach to composting.....build the pile right and let it sit for a year or more, undisturbed.
Very little mess, fuss or unnecessary expense. Beautiful rich, black finish.

However......turning will speed up the composting process, and if done with an eye for detail, can greatly reduce weed seeds for turning the uncomposted outer layer to the center for heating. Very, very seldom do I turn a pile. The only reason is for moisture level corrections, whether too wet, or too dry at the time of pile construction.


----------



## DEKE01

I used to be in the camp of human intervention composting, adding labor to get a faster finished product in a smaller amount of space. In my little suburban yard, I had to either trench compost or have a very small pile that was turned frequently. I didn't have room for anything else and even my little pile was a violation of HOA rules. 

Now that I have a farm, I have space to compost. If I ever run out of space, there is always more space on top of the last pile. Everything composts with time and even the big stump pile I created in August 11 is slowly becoming good soil. So now I'm in the camp of pile it up and leave it alone till it is done.

And FR taught me the stupidly simple rule (stupidly simple is generally where I need to operate) to put my piles where I want finished compost. So now, for the most part, I garden with the thought that the pile I create this year is the place I'll garden next year. In fact, the pigs and compost pile are sharing the space I'll garden in next year. So I get pig powered pile turning combined with an automated free manure delivery system. That pretty much eliminates the need to add human labor to turn or move the stuff. I'll run the tractor thru the pile to spread it evenly in the garden, but I would have been using the tractor anyway to work the soil. 

So while I find that compost turner vid very interesting, and there was a time in my life when I would have thought it was the ticket to composting nirvana, I no longer think it is worth the time and effort, even if someone gave me the tool. 


My recent composting efforts...

I got 4 loads of power line trimmings last week, delivered to the farm and dumped right where needed. Good stuff that was steaming hot by the next day. One of my neighbors thought that heat meant there was something wrong with the pile, so he got a lesson in composting. 

Last week I loaned my dump trailer to a guy with horses. Three loads, a total of 33 cu yards of aged manure, and he loaded the trailer for me. Only trouble was on the second load, the loaded trailer sat thru a heavy rain. The trailer sank in the soft soil where he was piling so we had to dump the trailer. But the wet load was too heavy too dump, so we had to use the tractor to pull it out of the back. Then we used the tractor to free the truck and trailer, and then reloaded. That was a lot of extra labor, diesel, and time because I was stupid. Lesson learned. 

And then yesterday I went to take the chipper to a 40 acre clean up job. The acreage was logged last week and I was going to get to chip the tops. There is easily 200 tons of easy chippings. Trouble was the loggers had torn up the sand road so bad, I couldn't get the chipper to the site, it took a few hours to get unstuck. Getting stuck twice in 3 days was a test of my limited patience. I wasn't a happy camper. There is no way I'm going to be able to pull a 12 ton loaded trailer out of there so that job is toast.


----------



## Forerunner

Deke...... might you be in the position, any time in the foreseeable future, to acquire a dozer in the 12000-15000 pound range ?

Road maintenance, pile spreading, truck/trailer unsticking, etc., etc., etc.

I did upgrade from a Case 550 to an 850, and they can have mine when they pry my cold, dead carcass out of the operator seat......


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Deke...... might you be in the position, any time in the foreseeable future, to acquire a dozer in the 12000-15000 pound range ?
> 
> Road maintenance, pile spreading, truck/trailer unsticking, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> I did upgrade from a Case 550 to an 850, and they can have mine when they pry my cold, dead carcass out of the operator seat......


I don't think I have enough need to justify a dozer. Especially since the truck that was stuck was the truck I would need to haul the dozer. :facepalm:


----------



## Forerunner

Understood.

The way your farm and operation has progressed, I was curious ........


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Understood.
> 
> The way your farm and operation has progressed, I was curious ........


Well, with 20/20 hindsight, four years ago I should have bought a dozer instead of the backhoe. Now I'm trying to justify keeping the backhoe. I like it for a lot of heavy lifting jobs, but I don't use it nearly enough hours to justify keeping it.


----------



## bmvf

Turning would also take care of any diseases which is very important for a livestock farm such as mine. Today my pile is 150F to 160F in temp. With a hurricane bearing down on us, I wanted to turn it a few times before it gets soaked.

I'm making two major changes to the farm, I'm transitioning to organic and I'm also going to convert the free stall barn into a compost bedded pack. With the latter, I'll take out the free stall loops and bust up the concrete likely this coming week. I'll then need to turn the pile to get it to heat and turn manure under. 

Composting comes into play for both changes. For organic I can use 'conventional' straw/hay/etc and compost it for organic use. There are requirements regarding how often it's turned and how hot it gets so it can be certified organic. For the composting pack I can use finished compost along with fine bedding such as sawdust or chopped straw. It would be very important to have totally finished compost that has no harmful 'bugs' in it.


----------



## bobp

We managed to find a way to capture some of our on farm produced carbon without sacrificing the half split of hay to a custom bailer.... we loaded three trailer loads and put in the compost pile, by using an old rake we were able to condense it into pile we could load fairly easily with the tractor and pitchfork.... I just need a pitchfork for the tractor... Can you say NEW PROJECT!

I ended up mixing it all into 3 chipper truck loads of chips/leaves I was composting... being green it should have enough N to get the pile going....


----------



## Forerunner

*sigh*

All this extreme composting is making me tired.

Saturday, I was minding my own business over a cup of coffee and, of all things, a knitting project......and there comes a knock on the door.

My friend, Chuck, from over at the sawmill two miles up the road ( may be the biggest sawmill in Illinois, by now......)

He asks me how's things goin' and all, then pops the question....
"You still needing sawdust for your compost operation ?"
I asks, "sure.....how much we talkin'?"

He says, says he, "Oh.....a hundred, maybe hundred and fifty semi loads....."

:sob:


----------



## DEKE01

Well done, Bobp. We had a custom bailer come in this year but it is likely to be the last time. We got to keep 27 1000 lb rolls, but the same amount left the farm for his cows. On 15 acres where we rotate the horses thru paddocks, we graze, then mow, drag, water, and rest. As luck has it, we found that one of our drags does a great job of raking. The grass piles up under the drag until it spits our a lump of hay 8 feet wide, 2 or 3 feet wide, and 1 tall. This lump is easily picked up with the loader and a little forking and feeds the compost pile or lands in the pig pens as manure cover. 

FR - dry up those tears, ya big baby. That is a tremendous score. I would love to have any and all of that. It is weird though. DW and I toured a local saw mill a couple of months ago and they sell EVERYTHING. Defective slabs and chips go to a plant across the street for chopping, sorting, and coloring bedding mulch. The sawdust is also sold to a 3rd party for processing into something that I can't remember. But they were absolutely clear, there was nothing left for them to give away to composters. Darn!


----------



## Forerunner

These fellows are pretty savvy, coming up with markets for just about everything, but I think economy is showing it's colors, and this sawdust is almost black.
A local railroad tie company has been hauling their green tailings, trimmed ends and sawdust mixed-no creosote.....and there is a mountain.....
They just brought in a rotary screen to separate the blocks from the sawdust, and they're letting me have all I want of both commodities......and they're bringing me the sawdust.



I'm mixing some with near-finished compost and spreading it immediately, stockpiling the rest. 

Still.....I thought I knew extreme before.......

:sob:


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> These fellows are pretty savvy, coming up with markets for just about everything, but I think economy is showing it's colors, and this sawdust is almost black.
> A local railroad tie company has been hauling their green tailings, trimmed ends and sawdust mixed-no creosote.....and there is a mountain.....
> They just brought in a rotary screen to separate the blocks from the sawdust, and they're letting me have all I want of both commodities......and they're bringing me the sawdust.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm mixing some with near-finished compost and spreading it immediately, stockpiling the rest.
> 
> Still.....I thought I knew extreme before.......
> 
> :sob:


I'm only about 1000 miles away. Think they need another dumping ground? 

Well done, sir!


----------



## On Horseback

Unbelievable. Here in southwest Kentucky a semi load of sawdust is worth $200 and up. Some pay $500 delivered. Poultry farms, tobacco, and dairies demand all of it.


----------



## Forerunner

This stuff was special.......way too dark for bedding and typical sawdust uses......not aged enough to be dirt just yet, but perfect for a crazy extreme composter. The felluhs at the mill know that, and they appreciate my bent.

I even offered to run a loader for a day so they could keep putting hours on the Vermeer tumbler screen while they had it.
Gig was up today but they plan to rent the screen again when they get this round of blocks chipped.


----------



## bmvf

Here's a pic of my pile at 168F yesterday. Pic is upside down. The pile is hardly 2 weeks old and was mostly sawdust bedding in a bed pack. 

My composting pack I mentioned is being built by the day. I got a roto tiller for a tractor to stir the pack and we add new bedding to the top daily. I used my near completed compost already and will use this pile as soon as I get it to near completion and dry enough. My compost pack will take a lot more bedding than the old free stall system but eventually it should taper off with adding so much bedding after the pack grows and starts to heat.


----------



## ChocolateMouse

OK, my composting friends. We all know that compost makes for awesome soil and awesome soil makes for awesome plants and great water retention and drainage. 

I wanna chat with some of you about utilizing compost in a very different way.

Up here in the frigid north, some pals and I are strongly considering the creation of an Ecovillage. So strongly that we're currently pursuing 501(c)3 incorporation, writing out our bylaws, solidifying our mission statement and eyeing properties. It won't be long before we need solid infrastructure designs and start seeking funding and outside membership as well.

Me and the engineer friends we have on the project are pondering using compost heat as our hot water source for our buildings. Our climate gets down to -20 on the cold years, and weeks of 8 foot snow followed by weeks of 10 or even -10 are not uncommon.

The concept would be somewhat similar to this one used by Mother Earth News;
http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/compost-water-heater-zmaz81jazraw.aspx?PageId=1

We would have our water pumped from our water source, run through a filter, then heated in a coil of piping stored in the center of the compost pile. We would then store the water, either in a hot water tank inside our main communal building (near our wood stove) or in a water tank in the pile itself.

The big problem is we're not sure how much material we're really gonna get of certain types. There's the strong possibility of a pair of draft horses (lots of manure, also a possible hauling power source), a cow, chickens, etc. There's also likely a good number of branches, leaves, bark and some sawdust as we are thinking of wood heat for the buildings... But because of the nature of the project there will be nothing like a chipper or shredder for us to use, no dumptrucks to haul things, no fossil fuel use of any kind if possible. We may get people to bring things to us and dump, but that's less than likely... But it may be something we invite people to do.

So, using muscle power, unchipped branches, leaves and probably a good chunk of manure, how likely is this to work? Too little carbon to break down hot? Too much nitrogen, burning up too fast to last the winter? Impossible to do in a reasonable time frame? Please help me understand, what are our big obstacles going to be and what we can do to fix them?


----------



## Forerunner

Too many variables to address specifically, but, the idea of compost-generated heat is certainly sound.
Carbon will be priceless, both as an offset to your nitrogen sources and as an insulation for the pile during the cold months.
I would start with the mass of at least two semi loads of balanced compost materials to be worthwhile in that environment. That much mass will easily generate heat for the entirety of the cold season.
When carbon is in short supply, high nitrogen material can be spread to dry and release excess, so long as there is little moisture coming in.....but that is a waste of nitrogen and somewhat counter to sustainability. It will improve your balance for creating a hot pile, however.
I would consider a partially underground approach to act as further insulation.


----------



## ceresone

Forerunner, I'm going to have to quit reading your posts. I'm too old, and too jealous of what you're doing!! Congratulations!!!!!


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## Forerunner

Well fine. Be that way.

:bored:



















:grin:



Believe it or not, I'm slowing down a bit, myself......

But the equipment and my suppliers don't seem to notice. :sob:


----------



## bmvf

We used the previous pile of compost in my barn this past week to try to jump start the composting in the pack. The compost was only 3 weeks old but was black and well past 50%. I also had to buy a load of wood bedding from my supplier, $1400 for a trailer, to put in the barn to make the pack deep enough. I'm sure some of you are thinking there were cheaper sources, and I'm sure there are. But, when it comes to dairy cow bedding and milk quality, it pays to spend money versus the money I could loose.

At any rate, it's paying off. Yesterday when I ran the roto-tiller through the barn it threw off some steam! That means it's starting to compost! Today we'll run a chisel plow through to work it down deeper.


----------



## Forerunner

No sawmills close, bmvf ?

Agreed that quality pays in the long run.....but even full market price on a semi load of sawdust should be economical, compared....if you can get it.
Tub grinder and either straw or corn stalks.....or poor grade round bales of hay....or cardboard ?
Just tossing ideas.

Sale barn finally made a thorough clean out....been a dry summer, and the new management has figured out that dry bedding pack just keeps soaking up animal wastes.
Less material for me, usually......but better material, and I'm not hauling off so much water.
They are firm believers, also, in as liberal a sawdust bedding pack as is economical.

Been hit and miss all summer, but they overflowed the pit and I went so far as to hook up the three wagon rig.

The fall sale season is upon us......


----------



## bobp

I'm having trouble finding manure sources.... There's Tons of poultry operations in the area but their litter is like gold for the hay fields....The nearest live stock auction is 40 miles away and they're more than willing to sell you a load.... 10.00 for 4 yds. 

I'd sure like to come across a good source...


----------



## bobp

what's your opinion on the 'safe' sludge' that's been dried in one of those big sun cookers...? I have to be careful or I get crossways with GAP regulations..


----------



## Forerunner

Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, (look him up) wasn't afraid to compost sludge, but the last time we talked about that in here, ALL the armchair experts came out to tell us what idiots we were to even breathe the word...........sludggggggggggggeeee.




Wish I had some to play with--I mean experiment with......


----------



## bmvf

Forerunner said:


> No sawmills close, bmvf ?
> 
> Agreed that quality pays in the long run.....but even full market price on a semi load of sawdust should be economical, compared....if you can get it.
> Tub grinder and either straw or corn stalks.....or poor grade round bales of hay....or cardboard ?
> Just tossing ideas.


I actually have a very large sawmill close by. My dad used to haul sawdust in our old 66' ford with a dump. However, all the research I've done says not to use green sawdust in a compost pack for animals.

Yesterday I ran my chisel plow through the pack and again today. We'll go back to the roto-tiller tomorrow to keep manure patties churned up. I was able to bring fresh bedding to the top with the plow and get air down to the bottom. And it is starting to heat, 92 degrees in the pack today. For the most part the pack has been to dry.... but that will change as the cows continue to use it.


----------



## Forerunner

Would you mind posting some links to the No Green Sawdust in a Compost Pack theory ?

Barring walnut and horses, that notion runs contrary to all of my own research and experience. Like to have a look at their reasoning........


----------



## bmvf

http://livestocktrail.illinois.edu/uploads/dairynet/papers/2007 dd Managing Compost.pdf

At the start of the third page, _"However, experience dictates that green or wet sawdust is not recommended."_

It doesn't say why, but I believe it is because of the added bacterial load. The pile doesn't have enough time to take care of that bacteria before the cows come in. Then udder health and milk quality suffer which can make major headaches for a dairy farmer.

This is dealing with bedding for dairy cows. Green sawdust would be great for any other type of 'normal' composting.

Today my pack was up to 104 degrees! They recommend 130 to 150, so we're climbing.


----------



## Forerunner

I can see how a working commercial dairy might get a little nervous about bacteria.

If my two milkers only knew......

Of course, anymore, seldom it is that I ever bed with fresh sawdust.
Dry leaves, pine needles, weedy round bales, straw and occasionally wood chips.

IF the market on green sawdust hadn't gone nuts around here, I'd still be using it.

Hardwood sawmill two miles up the road......


----------



## NEMarvin

Just in case there was any doubt....

http://104homestead.com/pee-in-the-compost/


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## Forerunner

Now see ?

That's what I'm talkin' about !!


----------



## bobp

Are any of you adding fresh dairy lot scrapings in your compost? If so how are you hauling them?

I have a close source now, 12 miles away, and I can get what ever I need of it, but its very liquidy....


----------



## DEKE01

I get 20+ gal of milk and about 50 lbs of butter, cheese, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc each week. I add them to my compost pile by running them thru the digestion systems of my pigs. The pigs are housed with a compost pile to poop and root in. I just moved the pigs to a new area, spread the compost pile, and in the next week or so I'll plant my winter garden there.


----------



## bobp

I'm trying to come up with a way to haul the fresh manure which is very high in liquid which they scrape from the cement lot into a pit multiple times daily. My compost is vey "brown" and manure is hard to come by. This source would round out my compost I think. Make it work better. And faster. 
Hauling it without ending up having to. Lean slohed over mess is my conundrum. Without spending a ton?


----------



## Forerunner

Funny...... 

The sale barn that I service has long expected me to take the winter slurry right along with the summer perfect blend......so I have created or procured tight wagons and tailgates, and even then I often make use of the sale barn's sawdust bedding pile to layer my wagon floors and seal up the trouble spots in my wagons, before loading.
It can be done.
Look for the vintage "Heider" silage/barge wagons, with dump.
They are built to haul anything farm related, right down to wheat grain.
If you can haul wheat, you should be able to haul semi-liquid manures.
The trick is opening the gate, when you get home to dump.

:grin:


----------



## Rafter B

I have always thought that haul with an old grain truck and the vintage Heider silage wagons would be the way to go. and they are cheap to get as well. I can see myself going to the local dairy or horse stables and loading to the max.


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## bobp

I have a siliage wagon. I just got it a couple months back. It has floor chains and a gap at both ends for the chains. I suppose I could pad the bottom with the mixed bedding. I feel I need to change the bearings. I'm also missing 2 of the wheel hub dust covers. Not quite sure where to get them.
But I suppose I could haul it in it, just didn't think about being able to plug the ends with sawdust bedding.


----------



## Forerunner

Check with your old school auto parts or old school implement dealer for those bearing covers. Take another one off and take it in with you.


----------



## SmokeEater2

Forerunner said:


> Check with your old school auto parts or old school implement dealer for those bearing covers. Take another one off and take it in with you.



Yup! Either an old school mom & pop auto parts or implement dealer can measure the old cover if they don't have a reference manual and get you fixed up.

The counter crew at Auto Zone, Pep Boys etc. will just stare at you with a glazed expression on their face iff'n the computer can't tell them what to do.

I'm glad there is still a few of them around.


----------



## Forerunner

......and the same applies to those old bearings and races......

I have found that, especially if I can get the numbers off any of those
parts, large truck dealers/service providers can tap their suppliers, as well.

Of course, having been Heider wagoning for some time, now.....I do have a parts-rich bone yard......

:whistlin:


----------



## SmokeEater2

I turned a small pile today so I could mix some oak leaves ( I have LOTS of them) into it and found several huge night crawlers hanging out in the edges of the pile. It's a little cool today so they disappeared back in the pile pretty quick. 

I snagged 5 straw bales that had been used as part of Thanksgiving displays and I broke those up and mixed them in too. They had been rained on several times so they were soaking wet but they should add some moisture to the dry leaves.

I noticed there is quite a bit of straw in all the Nativity displays around town and I'm going to offer to haul those off after Christmas. Folks in town generally just throw all that straw in a dumpster. :sob:

Might be something to keep an eye out for if you need some pile chow.


----------



## Forerunner

Two Heider wagons for sale in Texas.

http://m.fastline.com/ListingDetail.aspx?g=056434ba-c260-4e32-aac7-5472b0324222


----------



## bobp

Going to try and use the siliage wagon I have. Using your idea to 'seal' it with the good bedding oughta work. I'll have to something as the manure is straight manure with no bedding right off the staging pad, where they wait their turn to go into the parlor.


----------



## bobp

I beleive it'll unload the material OK. I'm working on rebuilding the hubs. Bearings were easy. Seals have not been. But once I get them I'll feel better about the 12 mile trip. If it works out I'll drop it off on my way to work then pick it up on the way home.

Sealing it is my major concern. I could see a trooper writing me a nice ticket for leaking down the road


----------



## Forerunner

My main run is a twelve mile, one way, as well.
Any gravel roads to utilize, en route ?
I have had my fair share of nasty breakdowns on my Heiders, but have found them extraordinarily resilient, by the law of averages.
What material do you have available to seal cracks with ?
Does the dairy have such material on site ?


----------



## bobp

They're 'loafing shed' (big feeding barn 250' x 100' ) is 75' from the parlor, with the manure pit building between them but over on the side..... it's a real efficient set up... The loafing shed is sawdust based, they stir daily with a 9 tooth cultivator on a small tractor. This 'floats' the sawdust up on top. They clean out once a year. a couple scoops of this dumped on ether end is what I was thinking to seal with... 

the manure pit has the scrapings from the run between buildings and the parlor .... and is all manure/urine..... no bedding... 

they milk 150-175 head, and don't turn them out on pasture, they feed silage and green chop...


----------



## ajeoc

I have to report... Christmas gift from my father-in-law was about 16 yards of nearly composted horse manure. He sells hay and this came from a horse barn a couple towns over.


----------



## bobp

AWESOME! Merry Christmas....


----------



## SamT

Funrunner... Uh, I mean Forfunner,,, uh, You know who.

I finally finished all 184 pages, 3681 posts and had to join HsT just so I can say

Thank you.

SamT


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## SmokeEater2

SamT said:


> Funrunner... Uh, I mean Forfunner,,, uh, You know who.
> 
> I finally finished all 184 pages, 3681 posts and had to join HsT just so I can say
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> SamT



This thread will give you compost fever in a big way. There is no cure I'm aware of. :whistlin:

Although, Finding a new source of manure or carbon _may_ alleviate the symptoms for a brief time.


----------



## Forerunner

SamT said:


> Funrunner... Uh, I mean Forfunner,,, uh, You know who.
> 
> I finally finished all 184 pages, 3681 posts and had to join HsT just so I can say
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> SamT


My pleasure, Sam !! :grin:

Have you got your pitchfork and wheelbarrow rounded up, yet ?


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## OffGridCooker

Countertop composting,
I use a colander so it can get oxygen from the bottom.
After a while I plant a tomato seed and turn on the grow light over the sink.
Now that is extreme!


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## Forerunner

We welcome x-treme measures from both ends of the spectrum....in this thread.

Do carry on.


----------



## SamT

SmokeEater2 said:


> This thread will give you compost fever in a big way. There is no cure I'm aware of. :whistlin:.


I've been feeding the soil since the '50s. I am now able to take it or leave it.

But... I do have two 40# feed bags of chicken nitro ready, and anybody near Houstonia, MO., who wants to come, by can clean out the coop for another ~10 bags if they need any.

:lookout:

Edit to add: Houstonia is near MM71 on hwy 70 half way twixt KC & Columbia. Got a big pile of charcoal and mud nearby, too.


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## Studhauler

I am getting tired of tearing out the clear windows on the envelopes that are mailed to me just so i can compost them. Is that clear plastic address window biodegradable? I dont want to have a bunch of little plastic flags all over my gardens when i spread the finished compost.

Also is the clear plastic packaging tape biodegradable in a big hot compost pile?


----------



## Forerunner

Why donchuz be our field test and report back in a month ?

Do make sure that pile hot......

Back when I got mail.......those envelopes burned real good......made better than middlin' fire starter.....


----------



## Studhauler

I will be the test pilot, but it will have to wait, as nothing is hot now because it is 20 below.


----------



## Studhauler

I wish i didnt get mail.


----------



## meandtk

A week ago I found this site.
I determined to read through this thread before any other threads.
I have 15-20 tons of wood chips from the right of way crew. Now I'm trying to determine a source of N.
Y'all keep up the good work.


----------



## Forerunner

meandtk said:


> A week ago I found this site.
> I determined to read through this thread before any other threads.
> I have 15-20 tons of wood chips from the right of way crew. Now I'm trying to determine a source of N.
> Y'all keep up the good work.


Good to hear from you M. 

Any fish related processing going on in your area ?


----------



## meandtk

There probably is down on the coast, about 45 minutes away.
I wish the chicken farms were closer. The extreme humidity keeps them from coming quite as far south as we live.

Jason ( The "me" in meandtk )


----------



## novapeps

I'm starting a pile because I have chickens


----------



## OffGridCooker

Forerunner you build things and weld without a shirt, you are my kind of a guy!


----------



## Forerunner

Dang straight !!

I try to keep the swimming season open all twelve months of the year, as well. 

:grin:


----------



## Forerunner

novapeps said:


> I'm starting a pile because I have chickens


The chickens will love you for it.....the worms (at least those near the surface of the pile) may not......


----------



## Canyonero

Wow. I'm gradually working through this thread from the beginning. Cool stuff.

I've gradually been reclaiming the old burn zone that surrounds my house. Years of pulling stumps, pushing dirt and grading, and now I've got some space to garden. I should have my greenhouse ready in the spring, and there's a nice pile of ripe black compost sitting right next to it.

My wife's livestock (pets!) have left big piles of manure and muck over the years. I've been stashing it nearby, with the intent to put it to use. Last year I used a bunch to build berms and mounds for planting seedlings from our state conservation program. 80+ trees and shrubs planted last year and about the same on order for this spring.

I've had a tough time composting manure in our dry climate until I discovered my little friends the Red Wigglers. Anymore, I don't mess with my piles once they're built - the worms do all the work.

My small piles have been growing along the way. No more hauling and building by hand; these days it's the Bobcat and tractor doing the heavy work. I have an old six-yard dumptruck I need to fire up, and I've been eyeballing a giant manure pile at a rural subdivision just down the road.

Good to know there are kindred spirits out there.

Thanks for the thread Forerunner. You've given me something to aspire to.


----------



## Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Canyonero.......sounds like you're well on your way!!


----------



## Shine

Curious... Is the Corporate Red Mulch any good as a carbon source? I think that it was once cypress...


----------



## Fulgfarm

Studhauler said:


> Is that clear plastic address window biodegradable? I dont want to have a bunch of little plastic flags all over my gardens when i spread the finished compost.


It is not, unfortunately. You'll be seeing them in your garden for years if you shred and compost. I've tried.


----------



## DEKE01

Shine said:


> Curious... Is the Corporate Red Mulch any good as a carbon source? I think that it was once cypress...


At least some of that red mulch is demolition debris. I used to be in the demolition biz. About 95% of a house is recyclable in some form or fashion. When we would tear down a building, any wood got sorted out and went into a chipper/crusher, through a die machine, a dryer, and then got bagged as red mulch. 

A carbon source? Sure, as much as any dried wood product it is a fine source of carbon. There is a chance some of it will be pressure treated so it will be very slow to decay, but the heat and humidity of a good pile will do its magic over time.


----------



## Canyonero

Funny...as I'm reading through from the beginning, I find mentions of the pee bucket. Yeah, I keep one in my shop - the wind blows here from all four directions at once; if I step outside, I'm due to get doused.

And yes, I have been feeding my worms with it for years now. I guess I should allow it to perk a bit longer though; I've been in the habit of dumping it every morning.

LOL, I guess obsessive composters tend to go down the same path.


----------



## Forerunner

You _guess_ ?!!


----------



## Canyonero

Forerunner said:


> You _guess_ ?!!


OK...I'm thinking about a 12-step program!

Relentless snow and cold for the last six weeks, and here I sit worrying about my worms...


----------



## bobp

I finally got the old silage wagon up and road ready... New bearings all the way around, and found new dust covers... got to give a plug to NAPA Auto Parts...They dug into the ole books and got it all figured out, when the tractor place threw their hands up.

I did hit one snag I'll need to address... it fish tales after 15MPH empty, and 10loaded. I need to figure out how to tighten the steering up... 
I'm also going to modify the back gate to make it quicker to unload. 

We hauled in 1 load of very wet lot scrapings from our local Dairy. He charged me 20$ per scoop but I felt the addition of the manure would help the compost finish out much better. 

We knocked down the windrow of compost (wood chips, sawdust, old hay, fresh cut hay mixed last summer) and spread it out to 18"-24" thick then drove the wagon up over the pile and unloaded it as evenly as we could, then raked and shoveled it around trying to cover everything with 2-4" of the manure. Then I folded one side in to the middle and then folded the other side in to the middle resulting in it being windrowed back up.

I had 6-8" left in the wagon which I ran along another windrow and discharged on to the ground and rolled the windrow over the top of it. I'll go back next weekend and stir everything again...


----------



## 4crumleys

For anyone in North Ga, this guy is paying you to pick up his manure.
http://http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/grd/5397953745.html


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## bobp

Wow that'd be awesome...


----------



## bobp

Made some changes to the reach (tongue) and pivot. Tightened everything up. Did away with the pin tongue hitch and welded on a ball hitch. Toed in the front tires by 1/4". 
It pulled 40-45 with no fishtail. It rides very rough on the dirt road but all in all a great pull. The reach extension is my next modification. It runs in and out over an inch while traveling. This translates into alot of bang and bump. 

We hauled 3 scoops of old sawdust it pulled fine. It could handle 4 but my truck couldn't. I need to get my ole 1 ton back up and running.
Put 9-12 yds old sawdust down by a pile of composting g hay. I'll fold the hay on to the sawdust then back mixing it well. I'm hoping to get some manure for it soon.


----------



## Forerunner

Does that one ton have a box and hoist ?

That would be a sweet combo.....so long as there was a loader waiting on your receiving end.....


----------



## SmokeEater2

Nice! I'm really jealous over that wagon bobp.


----------



## bobp

I'll end up with less than 800 in it by the time I'm done with the upgrades....
my one tone has a 12' flat bed no hoist but that's a good idea...

I found a really nice 6 ton wagon with a working scissor dump, I'm salivating over... 

and I feel I have a real need for a silage wagon with side discharge......

I wonder just how far my wife will let me push this composting project? LOL


----------



## meandtk

I can't say that I'm extreme in my composting, as I've not the wherewithal at the present.
I do pick up 50-100lbs of out of date produce from a grocer each week. I'm mixing it with hay and wood chips.
It was nice to notice yesterday that our neighbor, who has a rural garbage service, had dropped of 10 or 12 bags of leaves for me.


----------



## Forerunner

meandtk said:


> I can't say that I'm extreme in my composting, as I've not the wherewithal at the present.
> I do pick up 50-100lbs of out of date produce from a grocer each week. I'm mixing it with hay and wood chips.
> It was nice to notice yesterday that our neighbor, who has a rural garbage service, had dropped of 10 or 12 bags of leaves for me.


Are you, perchance, in a position to raise chickens ?

Those waste vegetables, etc. would go great through a chicken before they hit the compost pile.....


----------



## meandtk

Forerunner said:


> Are you, perchance, in a position to raise chickens ?
> 
> Those waste vegetables, etc. would go great through a chicken before they hit the compost pile.....


We're down to three chickens right now.
I do feed them some of the veggies.
I move them through my garden spot in the winter.
I plan to enlarge my flock and put them in deep bedding soon, and use the old bedding at the end of the summer.
Perhaps that isn't the best way, though.
Your thoughts?


----------



## Forerunner

I'd say you're headed in the right direction......

I'm not one to quibble over feeding my microbes directly, but anything I can put through a chicken or a red wriggler, first, is a good thing.


----------



## georgecoldiron

I get free wood chips from the tree trimming service and green manure from the stockyards; what mixture would you recommend ?


----------



## SmokeEater2

georgecoldiron said:


> I get free wood chips from the tree trimming service and green manure from the stockyards; what mixture would you recommend ?



Welcome George! First of all I gotta' admit that I wholeheartedly covet your free supply of wood chips and manure. 

How much of each material do you have to start with?


----------



## DEKE01

georgecoldiron said:


> I get free wood chips from the tree trimming service and green manure from the stockyards; what mixture would you recommend ?


Congrats on the chips and poo. But I have a very minor nit to pick. I assume by green manure you mean fresh stuff that has not composted. However, at least in academic circles green manure means cover crops that get tilled under or mowed down. I'm curious, is green manure a common term in use in your area?


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## Forerunner

Fresh manure _is_ kinda green. *shrugs*

Otherwise, I'd recommend one part manure/two-three parts chips.


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## georgecoldiron

By green manure I mean fresh out of the cow and supply I am not sure, there are more than one tree trimming service companies so the supply is probably two to three truck loads per week and manure is probably as much as I can haul on my small pickup.


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## Waiting2Retire

A Question

I have 2 horses, and have been picking their pastures every day sense we bought this place and brought the mares here in early Dec. 

Ive been mixing this into a pile with either leaves or wasted hay (very picky horses) and adding water when I thought it might need some. 

I have turned it a few times, and I'm going to start building a new pile soon to let this one finish becoming. I turned it again yesterday, and found a lot of white powder. The pile was still hot, and as I turned it i added more water, but I would really like to know what the powder is, what caused it, and if adding more water was the right decision so I dont make the same mistake in the new pile. 

Overall- pile stands about chest high, is about the length of a manure picker across, and is sort of oval/roundish in shape. I turn it with a fork, so Id rather it didn't get much bigger.

I put an image on my blog, on a page by themselves, going to try to link it so you can see the picture I took of the powder. 

http://www.tarnishedleaf.com/p/pictures-of-compost-for.html


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## Forerunner

Hallo, Waiting2.......

I'm sayin' your white powder is a little "fire-fanging" or mold, either one of which can be fixed with a little more water, or wet manure mixed in.
Both are indication of a dryish pile.


----------



## DEKE01

Forerunner said:


> Hallo, Waiting2.......
> 
> I'm sayin' your white powder is a little "fire-fanging" or mold, either one of which can be fixed with a little more water, or wet manure mixed in.
> Both are indication of a dryish pile.


I don't know this for a fact, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the mold. It is a form of decay at work, though much slower than a pile hot enough to kill the mold. If I'm wrong, let me know because I might have to change my mgmt practices with some of my remote piles that don't get enough N and H20 to stay hot.


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## Forerunner

The fungi will do a lot of work, over a lot of time......but ideal conditions and the resultant hot, moist composting will make rich black a lot faster.
Fire fanging, which is excess heat due to moisture lack, will actually destroy certain nutrients.
Don't know for sure without digging into it a bit more, but fire fang may be a variety of fungus......
Anybody up for a homework project ?


----------



## Studhauler

Waiting2Retire said:


> I turned it again yesterday, and found a lot of white powder. The pile was still hot, and as I turned it i added more water, but I would really like to know what the powder is, what caused it, and if adding more water was the right decision so I dont make the same mistake in the new pile.


I am glad somebody asked this. I get firefanging (new word of the day) in my compost piles that don't have any manure in. Without a good dose of manure the compost just don't get hot enough.


----------



## Waiting2Retire

Thanks for the response! The majority of the pile is fresh manure, I scoop up leaves and dead plant material with the manure, and add wasted/moldy hay at the pile. So I added more water, poking and digging holes into the pile. Its been a couple days sense I looked at it- Ive been trying to finish the new pasture fence so my DD has been picking the current one. I'll check it today and see how it is going


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## SLFarmMI

So I went out to turn the compost pile today and two really fat voles scampered out. I'm guessing that vermin in the pile is a sign of something very wrong with the pile. Solutions? I have no access to manure in a cost-effective way so the pile is a mixture of stuff like grass clippings, apples and dried leaves.


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## DEKE01

My guess is that your pile is not hot enough. If you have lots of grass, you don't need manure. Is the pile wet enough to get hot?


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## SLFarmMI

It looks wet but it's not very hot. I'll see about adding some water next time I'm down there.


----------



## DEKE01

SLFarmMI said:


> It looks wet but it's not very hot. I'll see about adding some water next time I'm down there.


maybe it is too wet? If you stick your hand down deep inside it, it shouldn't feel wet or look soggy, but you should feel some moisture. 

Also, when I put lots of grass in my small suburban pile, it would mat down. That cuts off O2 from the pile so it has to be mixed, turned to bring in the O2. Turning will also help it dry out if it is too wet.


----------



## SLFarmMI

Well, now that I know there's vermin in the pile, I'm a little nervous about sticking my hand in it. I'll dig some out and after I know there aren't any furry critters in my sample I'll check the moisture level.


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## dablack

So I finally get to post in THE thread........

I finally caught the electric line guys and now when they are trimming on my side of town, they dump their chips on my property! I'm very pleased. I was very surprised at how much green was in the chips. No enough to get hot but more than I was expecting. 

They have dumped about five loads in the last month or so. If that rate keeps up, I will be set! I would give them $10 everytime they show up but they always show when I'm at work. Maybe I need to put a box for cash down by the pile?

HA! I just got a text from the wife, they are there at the house right now dropping off more chips. That makes six loads. I love it. 

Since I have so much brown (with a little green), I'm collecting coffee grounds here at work. It isn't enough to balance out the wood chips but everything helps. When I get here in the morning, I make two pots of coffee and then go again around 9 to do two more pots. Same again at 2:30. No body is ever going to have to make coffee here again. HA!

I'm very pleased to finally be a little extreme.

Austin


----------



## Forerunner

Great news, Austin. 

Don't forget where to tuck that liquid coffee residual, along with the grounds, after the former has done it's work and your bladder takes on the excess......

Meanwhile.....those chips will heat more than you might think, though every contribution of nitrogen, in whatever form, that you can muster, will be a major boost to balance.

Forget tipping the chipping crew.....but be sure to tip your wife for those mid-day boosts to that cheerful demeanor only known to extreme composters !! :grin:


----------



## Midgard

Great news Austin! While a tip isn't necessary for the chipper crew the recognition that their work is appreciated. My local tractor company came out to the house and did a repair for free. I had three pizzas delivered. They loved the pizza as well as getting a customer for life. 

Ed


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## dablack

Thanks guys. Since everyone loves pictures, here is a shot when it was just two loads. I think I'm up to seven loads now. Haven't seen or heard from them in a while. They might be done in my area.


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## Rafter B

Is no one around anymore? Or are you all busy with your gardens? lol Miss seeing everyone's progress.


----------



## Forerunner

Busy, busy, busy.....gardens and compost haulin', mixin', applyin' and stuff.

But, yeah.....you'd think _some_one would have some news.....


----------



## davewittwer

it's not extreme but I scored the past prime veggies and fruit from the food coop next to my office today. they said bring a bucket everyday. the pile and chickens will be in heaven


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## Forerunner

davewittwer said:


> it's not extreme but I scored the past prime veggies and fruit from the food coop next to my office today. they said bring a bucket everyday. the pile and chickens will be in heaven


Never discount the value of a small quantity that contributes on a regular basis....especially as you are able to feed livestock with it, first.....none of which will be remotely lost to the soil building effort.

That combination is what they call a double word score x 3, in Scrabbleâ¢.


----------



## DEKE01

my composting efforts have greatly scaled back. I get between 250 and 1000 lbs of grocery store casts off 3 times a week. We feed ourselves, two other families, 5 cows, 2 pigs, and 20+ chickens with it. What can't be eaten (really rotten stuff, cardboard, etc) goes into the compost pile and we fill a 12 x 12 x 4 pen about once a month.

I get a 15 yard load (6000 lbs) of stall sweepings once a week to cover the piles and fill in any bare spots in the fields. It is usually steaming when we get it, and has composted for month or so at a transfer station. 

There was a dead deer by the road a couple of weeks ago and it went into the pile, covered with a foot of manure. Even though I have coyote and buzzard problems, nothing disturbed it.


----------



## mich9510

I'm new to composting and was hoping you could help. I have a small compost pile (maybe three cubic feet). I added all kinds of material, grass clippings, manure, leaves cut up twigs, newspaper, sludge from my koi pond....A few days ago I noticed a very strong ammonia odor which I figured meant I had too much nitrogen. I spent hours shredding up my best available source of carbon (newspaper) I also added a good bit of coffee grounds. I mixed it in and now the pile stinks like eggs. It did rain so I figured the pile was wet with not enough air so I stirred it up again and the smell has subsided a little....
What suggestions do you all have? Ive been at this for weeks and not once have I gotten any heat. How long does a compost heap take to heat up? I'm discouraged. Please help.


----------



## Forerunner

Sounds like you need more carbon, and more mass, Mich....

Don't get discouraged.....get motivated !!

Do you have any sawmills or horse farms around ?

Like DEKE does.....use those little contributions and incidental opportunities when they avail themselves, but look for larger sources for massing a pile to where it will heat and really provide you some material.
A pickup truck is great, but a couple large totes in the back of your wife's grocery-and-errands-in-town mobile can really add up, over time, especially if you have her stop by the horse farm every time she's out and about !!

This all assuming that you are male and married, of course......

:whistlin:


----------



## Rafter B

lol that is what i thought. 




Forerunner said:


> Busy, busy, busy.....gardens and compost haulin', mixin', applyin' and stuff.
> 
> But, yeah.....you'd think _some_one would have some news.....


----------



## melli

I suppose the idea of this thread is to acquire composting material...I've noticed my neighborhood Ravens will eat anything, even their cousins...just had some chicken bones and they scooped them up. Whatever they can't eat, they compost for me (they bury it in caches all over my yard...). 
Handy.


----------



## DEKE01

melli said:


> I suppose the idea of this thread is to acquire composting material...I've noticed my neighborhood Ravens will eat anything, even their cousins...just had some chicken bones and they scooped them up. Whatever they can't eat, they compost for me (they bury it in caches all over my yard...).
> Handy.


I use my cattle and pigs in a similar composting processing and distribution system.


----------



## Studhauler

Forerunner said:


> Sounds like you need more carbon, and more mass, Mich....
> 
> Do you have any sawmills or horse farms around ?



...or cabinet shops?


----------



## melli

DEKE01 said:


> I use my cattle and pigs in a similar composting processing and distribution system.


Then 'my' Ravens poop all over...sort of a processed compost. Also, noticed the smaller birds and squirrels doing the same, as the Ravens have issues with sunflower seeds and smaller nuts given their monstrous beaks. Having beaks that curl over makes it interesting...they try the sideways method with some success. They like to rip stuff apart. Have deer and bear leaving deposits too...

The power of getting animals to do the heavy lifting shouldn't be underestimated. Won't be long before I have real vibrant soil.


----------



## mich9510

I've got heat! I dumped the compost out of the bin I had it in (I had drilled air holes but probably not enough) and now it's in a pile on the ground. I added lots of leaves and small pieces of wood from my spring pruning and grass clippings. I let it sit for a few days and just went to tturn it toady. Couldn't believe it but there was heat actually radiating off the pile! Thanks for the advice.I'm calling the girls that live next door who rescue horses to ask them for some manure today.


----------



## DEKE01

mich9510 said:


> I've got heat! I dumped the compost out of the bin I had it in (I had drilled air holes but probably not enough) and now it's in a pile on the ground. I added lots of leaves and small pieces of wood from my spring pruning and grass clippings. I let it sit for a few days and just went to tturn it toady. Couldn't believe it but there was heat actually radiating off the pile! Thanks for the advice.I'm calling the girls that live next door who rescue horses to ask them for some manure today.


good deal. Horse poo is great stuff for composting.


----------



## Forerunner

We have heat, too.

95 degrees and humid in Illinois today.

Be happy to ship some of that to whomever might appreciate it. :grin:


----------



## MoBookworm1957

I have no compost, but here in Missouri we have heat,and humidity.


----------



## Forerunner

YES !!

Let's not forget the value of humidity to the healthy composting operation.

At nearly 100%, we have plenty to share......


----------



## Yowsa

I'm extreme. And I compost. So here ya go.

Manure + water + worms = compost. I just keep pulling it off the pile and jamming in more manure.


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## Forerunner

You must be in a drier climate, Yowsa ?

Seldom would we ever need to add water to manure, in Illinois, anyway.


----------



## Yowsa

Forerunner said:


> You must be in a drier climate, Yowsa ?
> 
> Seldom would we ever need to add water to manure, in Illinois, anyway.


Yep, high desert. 6300' altitude; mid-90 temps lately and single-digit humidity. Gardening here is a whole different program.

I'm originally from the midwest where we'd just pile the stuff in a heap and let it take care of itself. If I did that here, it'd still be sitting there 10 years later.

With the worms and watering, I'll be able to harvest finished compost next spring. Meanwhile in the fall I'll rake a bunch of the partially-finished material off the top and work it into my garden beds.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Busy, busy, busy.....gardens and compost haulin', mixin', applyin' and stuff.
> 
> But, yeah.....you'd think _some_one would have some news.....


Well I've been busy, busy, busy with lots of things and haven't been here in awhile and for other reasons. So thought I'd drop in again to see what's going on and brag just a little.

There's a pipe line going through my area and they are grinding the trees instead of burning them.

They delivered 400-500 yards of mostly fine ground mulch. Finally made the big time. It has some dirt and big stuff in it. That goes right in the wash ditch. They are using a huge tub grinder. Mine was delivered with a walking floor trailer. Its already heating up.

Going to fill up a wash ditch and cover with dirt. I've been working on it for years with downed trees.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> We have heat, too.
> 
> 95 degrees and humid in Illinois today.
> 
> Be happy to ship some of that to whomever might appreciate it. :grin:


No thanks. That's one thing we have in excess here. Last week it was put on dry clothes and walk out to the clothesline, remove and hang them, go back for some more dry clothes.


----------



## Forerunner

Am1......we must be related.


----------



## am1too

Forerunner said:


> Funny......
> 
> The sale barn that I service has long expected me to take the winter slurry right along with the summer perfect blend......so I have created or procured tight wagons and tailgates, and even then I often make use of the sale barn's sawdust bedding pile to layer my wagon floors and seal up the trouble spots in my wagons, before loading.
> It can be done.
> Look for the vintage "Heider" silage/barge wagons, with dump.
> They are built to haul anything farm related, right down to wheat grain.
> If you can haul wheat, you should be able to haul semi-liquid manures.
> The trick is opening the gate, when you get home to dump.
> 
> :grin:


Really


----------



## KTrae

Hello,
Trying to move beyond the 'piling everything up' composting I've done in the past and get some actual black gold.
Flipped my pile I am trying to feed the chickens with and it was pretty much dried out weeds and such...no real composting...or chicken goodies. Watered it well and started a new pile next to it. Started with a base of straw from the chicken coop, wheel barrow of sheep manure, pile of weeds, and wind fall apples/plums. Plus kitchen scraps. Plan on adding a wheel barrow or so of weeds/ leafs/ general garden litter, plus kitchen scraps, and a sprinkle of water daily for about a week and then flip and start a new pile. Thoughts?
Do I need to make a bin with the pallets or is a pile okay?
Paper/cardboard...do you worry about dyes, ink, or just use all of it?
What do I need to get it going (besides massive size...I can only dedicate so much time each day 
Okay...second topic. I have this huge pile (several pickup loads) of dried out thistles & blackberry brambles. I'd like to cover it with horse manure and flip it in about a month? Will that work or do I need to do something a little less lazy?!?
Thoughts on free hog manure? Worth it, or just go for the horse manure since it's free too?
Also, what are your precautions/advice for avoiding persistent herbicides?
Thank you so much for your advice! I really appreciate it!
Katie


----------



## bmvf

KTrae said:


> Hello,
> 
> Paper/cardboard...do you worry about dyes, ink, or just use all of it?
> 
> Okay...second topic. I have this huge pile (several pickup loads) of dried out thistles & blackberry brambles. I'd like to cover it with horse manure and flip it in about a month? Will that work or do I need to do something a little less lazy?!?
> 
> Thoughts on free hog manure? Worth it, or just go for the horse manure since it's free too?


I'll just answer the questions I have an opinion on.

1. I would not worry much about paper and cardboard except for the glossy magazine type paper and any plastic such as envelope windows.

2. I would be very lazy with the thistle and bramble pile. Put it in corner you don't see and let it take it's time. The manure will help, but it takes time to break down sticks. Near the end I'd add it to my regular pile and get it to heat up to kill the seeds.

3. Usually horse manure has lots of bedding which would be high carbon. Usually hog manure is very 'hot' with high N... at least the slurry is. If you can use the nutrients I'd take both and incorporate both into the pile. 

To give you an idea of C to N. They say that bedding from cattle is right around the correct C:N ratio. Normally cattle are bedded just before the poop starts to stick to them. Hogs usually wallow in their own poop, so that would be high N. Horses are usually kept super clean, thus the high C.


----------



## MichaelZ

A key to a nice pile is air. If your pile is wood frame, the spaces often get clogged up. You get a stinky pile that is more like a septic tank. To make a nice setup at low cost, get some garden fence posts and zip tie plastic poultry netting (see http://www.menards.com/main/buildin...5-plastic-poultry-netting/p-1444451731659.htm ) I used 6 posts and made 2 square units, side by side. In my case, the backs of the units are my metal shed. You will want at least 2 bins - one to work on while the other is completed. If a section is damaged, simply zip tie on a new section of mesh.


----------



## MOgal

Am1too, I haven't figured out how to do a quote but will ask a question related to your putting the finely ground mulch on top of the downed trees, etc., in your wash. I saw a video with Marjory Wildcraft where she showed some apple trees planted in a wash saying that it provided all the water the trees needed even in high desert. I wondered if you had considered anything like that. With all the downed trees and mulch, it sounded a lot like unintentional hugelkultur to me.

Just curious.

Also wanted to know if anyone had ever encountered herbicide persistence in compost made with spoiled or uneaten hay? Our neighbor wanted to spray our farm with 2,4-D a couple of years ago to get rid of the broadleaf weeds my goats love to give the grasses a better chance to make better hay for his cattle. Since dioxin is a perpetual byproduct of the manufacture of 2,4-D, we declined his request and he now declines to put up the forage that's out there except for a few bales for our animals. We live among several parcels of his land so he doesn't mind doing 10 acres for us. Anyway, I wondered if anybody has run into crop damage from persistent herbicides.

Thanks.


----------



## am1too

MOgal said:


> Am1too, I haven't figured out how to do a quote but will ask a question related to your putting the finely ground mulch on top of the downed trees, etc., in your wash.


That's easy. Just click on the blue quote button at the bottom of a post.


> I saw a video with Marjory Wildcraft where she showed some apple trees planted in a wash saying that it provided all the water the trees needed even in high desert. I wondered if you had considered anything like that. With all the downed trees and mulch, it sounded a lot like unintentional hugelkultur to me.


Well that could be considered unintentional hugelkultur.

I'm doing just to fill in a small wash bout 4 ft deep, 6-8 ft wide and maybe 200 ft long. I have to many trees on its banks. I also have some small wash starts to fill in. I'll put a thin layer of sand on top of my fill. That will help it retain moisture as in hugelkultur. I live in Okie land which has a clay base if not already on top. The soil/dirt is wore out/washed way. 

I garden in straight compost. My regular garden is 18 inches deep built right on top of the clay with 3 ft rows of wood chips/mulch also 18 inches deep between the 3 ft rows. Rarely need to water.

I have some piles of compost or straight horse stall cleanings I use as a Bermuda nursery. I then use sprigs to spread the grass. Of course they're planted in straight trenched compost. The trench is one spade deep and wide. Does great in sun or part to medium shade. I don't do fescue because if mowed you have to reseed every year not to mention the mold it requires.


> Just curious.
> 
> Also wanted to know if anyone had ever encountered herbicide persistence in compost made with spoiled or uneaten hay? Our neighbor wanted to spray our farm with 2,4-D a couple of years ago to get rid of the broadleaf weeds my goats love to give the grasses a better chance to make better hay for his cattle. Since dioxin is a perpetual byproduct of the manufacture of 2,4-D, we declined his request and he now declines to put up the forage that's out there except for a few bales for our animals. We live among several parcels of his land so he doesn't mind doing 10 acres for us. Anyway, I wondered if anybody has run into crop damage from persistent herbicides.
> 
> Thanks.


If your pile is hot enough it will destroy all the 'cides except the persistent herbicides. I think it take at least 3 years to get those. If you want to know about their presence, plant maters. If they do well there are no persistent herbicides which only affect broad leaf plants - not grasses.


----------



## Forerunner

Hello KTrae.

I've been "vacationing" in northern Michigan.
Life could be worse. 

I am finding myself, as usual, in agreement with Am1 and bmvf.
Sounds like you are definitely on the right track with your operation.
You shouldn't have to turn those piles once you build them right, especially as you aspire toward extremism in your mass......


----------



## KTrae

Ok...burried the pile of thistles/brambles in a pickup load of horse manure. Next time I'll try to bury the thistles while they are still green to up the nitrogen. The manure source is less than a mile down the road. I think I'll spread a little around a tomato plant to check for persistent herbicides. If it's a go we'll keep adding. I need it to get hot enough to kill the seeds and be ready for next spring. Is this doable? Or do I need more carbon with the horse manure? Cow is coming in October...she'll be put right to work 
For my chicken feed compost I zip tied a couple welded wire panels to contain it. I think my first batch didn't do much because I had too many big woody things in it. I was hoping to do a Geoff Lawton style chicken compost on steroids, but I don't think it impressed the chickens much because they all escaped and are digging around my flower beds. 
Working on the extreme...the utility guys dropped off a load of chips this spring, but the garden paths swallowed it.
Hugelkultur...thanks for the new vocab!


----------



## Forerunner

Take it from one who has pushed the limits and seen it all......

Be patient with your compost operation, and......when in doubt, give it another six months before spreading.
As for ratios, C, N, water, etc.....if you get consistent heat, you're getting at least a B+ average.....
Wood chip or sawdust garden paths are the bomb. 
That makes many critters happy as they slowly break the stuff down, suppresses weeds and holds moisture, so.....
I did mulch heavily with fresh horse stall cleanings, (good sawdust content) this late spring, around my melons, tomatoes, strawberries, peppers, and am delighted with the results.


----------



## KTrae

Forerunner-
Thanks for the encouragement! Just trying to get the piles built right to maintain heat. I'll let you know how it goes...and take plenty of time.
When you spread the fresh horse manure, did you have a problem with weeds?

Michealz
Thanks for the recommendation on bins. I built something similar, we'll see how it does. I also moved the sprinklers over just a bit.

Bmvf
Thanks for the info! Too bad I put my bramble/manure pile right out front! Any ballpark guesses on how long it'll take? I'm pining for a chipper. Oh-well good things take time!

Has anybody here encounter persistent herbicides first hand?


----------



## Forerunner

No problem with weeds in my current source of horse stall cleanings.
Oddly, not even the occasional stray oat.....

I don't know if I've ever had issues with persistent herbicides, but my gut says no. Many variables in the application of compost, but I have consistently experienced very positive results in any material of my blending and aging that is 18 months or older in the pile.


----------



## am1too

The persistent herbicide issue was introduced to compost largely through horse stall cleanings and manure because they were used on the feed and hay feed to horses. To my knowledge this was only a problem in the NE. The major feed company involved was Purina. The only Purina (Nestle) I buy is puppy chow because nothing else is regularly available. The company involved has used this as a scare tactic to sell their product. This is why my primary source doesn't allow any horse waste products in their yard (compost facility).


----------



## bmvf

Forerunner said:


> I did mulch heavily with fresh horse stall cleanings, (good sawdust content) this late spring, around my melons, tomatoes, strawberries, peppers, and am delighted with the results.


As I transition to organic production I've been trying to learn about retaining nitrogen. In my readings, applying manures and compost with high carbon contents will actually tie up nitrogen in the soil as it breaks down the carbon. So if my P, K and other micro-nutrient levels are adequate and nitrogen is my main benefit from manure, I could potentially reduce the available nitrogen in the soil if my application is high in C.

So your good results tell me you either have lots of N in your soil, or something in my logic is off. Although, I put wood chips around my strawberries too....


----------



## Forerunner

Correct.

But.....the horse stall cleanings that I'm getting now are a near perfect stand alone compost mix, just add water......or, use as mulch.


----------



## bobp

Folks often get hung up on 'tieing up nitrogen' due to the bacterial decomposition. Yes its true that some N is bound while in use by microbes, there is another truth. In the long term your soil quality improves. 
I found that sawdust mulch 4-6" does wonders. It deconposes slowly. And adds to the soil. If your worried about the N issue add manure.


----------



## bobp

On another note i have found composting itself to be a frustratingly slow endevor. I have 3 big windrow piles. And they are working slow.

However I do believe in building the soil from the bottom up so i am continuing with the efforts.

I discovered a gentleman recently with a walking floor trailer. For 250$ he'll deliver 100,000+ #s of old sawdust. Old black rotted stuff. I'll mix in fresh cut hay and dairy litter.
Hes coming from a local sawmill. This is much much easier than my 6 yd silage wagon loads.


----------



## bmvf

bobp said:


> Folks often get hung up on 'tieing up nitrogen' due to the bacterial decomposition. Yes its true that some N is bound while in use by microbes, there is another truth. In the long term your soil quality improves.
> I found that sawdust mulch 4-6" does wonders. It deconposes slowly. And adds to the soil. If your worried about the N issue add manure.


My P and K are too high to add manure. I've been advised to actually export manure to keep my levels low. We've been an overstocked dairy farm for years (100 cows for 150 acres) so soil levels are above optimum. That's why my main focus with compost and manure is retaining N in both storage and application.


----------



## just_sawing

I am trying to set up our new operation to use our Sawdust. As of now we have no livestock here. 
In the past I removed my Sawdust to my neighbor and dumped it in his pasture where he feed his cattle on it during the Winter. What we ended up with was as good as you get. The cattle did their thing and stirred it just standing and eating. We then piled it up and let it set for a year. The result was as good as I have seen. 
What I am doing now is just piling the sawdust on the hill side and letting nature do its thing. The sawdust seems to be propagating down the hill which is fine as it is enriching as it goes. 
What my hope is, is to incorporate animals into the mix with a feed operation feeding out and making compost with the result.


----------



## Forerunner

Bedding a cow herd with sawdust, right out in the pasture, is rather a novel idea. 

You've certainly got the coveted and magical main ingredient that many are looking for.


----------



## Allen W

bmvf said:


> My P and K are too high to add manure. I've been advised to actually export manure to keep my levels low. We've been an overstocked dairy farm for years (100 cows for 150 acres) so soil levels are above optimum. That's why my main focus with compost and manure is retaining N in both storage and application.


Alfalfa


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## Forerunner

Buckwheat


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## Allen W

Forerunner said:


> Buckwheat


Why buck wheat?

Alfalfa would help add nitrogen at the end of it's life cycle and a decent amount of P and K would be used by the plant and removed from the field if hay was harvested.


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## Forerunner

Oh !!

I thought maybe we had stumbled into a Little Rascals flashback.....

Wholly agree with your hay removal remedy to excess nutrient.


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## bmvf

Yes, I'm learning that legume use is a huge part of organic farming. Much more a part than I previously thought. I'm trending towards red clover since it has fewer pest issues than alfalfa.

Just sent 4 samples of compost to be tested. None is completed compost but we need to haul them out before harvesting forage in a month or so.


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## rezod11

It happened. It finally happened. I read through this whole thread. It took me a month to get through and I feel like I know some of you already. 

As I was nearing the end of the thread, I had some mixed emotions...it's over?:shrug: 

I finished the whole thing! :clap::clap::clap:

I too have been bitten by the compost bug. I was composting before but now it's as extreme as I can get on my little 3/4 of an acre. Hubby and I decided to put in a 1200 sf garden and we are going to try to fill it with mostly composted material. I've been very fortunate in finding material so far...a horse farm less than half a mile away, my favorite tree guy bringing me stump grindings, some of the blackest dirt in my area(from craigslist and free, just have to pick it up) and, last but definitely not least, you all.

Thanks for all the amazing information that you have shared here. I have learned an amazing amount of information. Now that I have finished with this I can start reading my Rodales book of Composting, donated to me by my best friend. 

Hoping to have something to plant in come the springtime!!!:rock::banana::nerd:

rezoD


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## Forerunner

Welcome, Rezod. 

Sounds like your heart is in the right place !!

Enjoy the little things, right along with the big scores, in your soul-building and food producing endeavors !!


----------



## light rain

What happened to Forerunner and this thread?


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## MoBookworm1957

Don't know?


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## Forerunner

Still here....

Still composting in a major way.

HT took a huge hit, and the Old Spirit seems to have vanished, if not suffered greatly.

I don't log in near as often as I once did, but do wander in, from time to time, to check this thread and a few others.


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## MoBookworm1957

Glad to hear from you


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## YamahaRick

This thread is why I joined the forum. Hope to see more input from the smart folks here soon. Or maybe more pics of compost porn.


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## Forerunner

Compost porn.

Might be able to help with that over the next couple weeks, or so......

:teehee:


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## WIWinterman

Steaming piles of compost in the crisp January air...:nanner:


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## Forerunner

I just commented to a fellow composter, this a.m......by text;

"The steam vents are coking up!!"


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## Cascade Failure

Been gone a while. Glad to see this thread is still alive.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Made the decision to sell our van in favor of a more efficient vehicle, so before I listed it I decided to haul as much tree trimming mulch as a could from the local township. They heap up my 4x4x8 trailer for $5. I didn't keep count but I figure it was close to ten loads. When I got done, my pile was bigger than theirs! That is my 14 year old son and assistant forker at the top. We've probably applied 4-5 times this much over the years, just never had this much inventory on hand. I figure it will last me 3 years or so.

I don't have a great source of nitrogen or a loader to mix with, but there is enough green in the chips to result in a decent warmish compost if I am patient, so I usually give it a year, then apply a thick layer (8-10") to my garden and perennials. I figure I have put close to 4 feet of mulch on my garden over the past few years. It has composted into a wonderful black soil, burying the red clay underneath. Only downside I see is that voles love the stuff and will destroy their favorites unless I protect them.


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## ChocolateMouse

While not as extreme as you all, I live pretty deep into suburbia so I have trouble doing what you folks do. But! We got a warm spell so I cleaned all 14 rabbit cages and the chicken coop and took out all the household compost and some crud from the floor of the chicken pen, plus all the dead plants from last year's garden. I also loaded all the unfinished compost from the top of the pile I'm going to be putting into the spring gardens into the new pile and piled up the old stuff better. Raked up some leaves onto both as well. Today the snow started falling again and while the old pile of mostly finished compost is cold and frozen, the new pile is damp and steamy with no snow on top! It's been a while since I had enough compost for it to heat up like that! It's about 4' tall and a good 5' wide. I'm pleased!


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## am1too

ChocolateMouse said:


> While not as extreme as you all, I live pretty deep into suburbia so I have trouble doing what you folks do. But! We got a warm spell so I cleaned all 14 rabbit cages and the chicken coop and took out all the household compost and some crud from the floor of the chicken pen, plus all the dead plants from last year's garden. I also loaded all the unfinished compost from the top of the pile I'm going to be putting into the spring gardens into the new pile and piled up the old stuff better. Raked up some leaves onto both as well. Today the snow started falling again and while the old pile of mostly finished compost is cold and frozen, the new pile is damp and steamy with no snow on top! It's been a while since I had enough compost for it to heat up like that! It's about 4' tall and a good 5' wide. I'm pleased!


Nice

am1too


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## Mupwi

nice to see some fresh pics of big old compost heaps im moving to a new property next month and am keen to get started it has a river running past it and im thinking of stringing a net across it to cach all the floating biomass that normaly gets stuck on the bridge downriver and let it bring it to my pile instead my idea is to use it on a 1 ac vegi patch and 6 ac of pasture


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## Silvercreek Farmer

After posting the pic of the mulch I realized that I neglected to show the finished product, so here it is. I haven't turned the soil the garden in 7 years or so and I was able to easily dig down nearly a foot with my hand. I am almost temped to plow just to see all that beautiful black dirt, but that wouldn't be good for my soil now would it?


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## Allen W

Silvercreek Farmer You have a very large herd of microscopic livestock growing in that dirt. Don't turn it, leave them alone and let them do their job


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## Horse Fork Farm

I just recently came back to the HT forums and this is one of the first threads I wanted to read. Things here on the forums got a "different" vibe for awhile so I just stopped participating. I hope things have settled down because I missed being here.

Asplundh has been out here cutting right of ways for the electric co. and leaving it here for us...JOY!!!


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## bmvf

Allen W said:


> Silvercreek Farmer You have a very large herd of microscopic livestock growing in that dirt. Don't turn it, leave them alone and let them do their job


I agree with Allen 100%. Plowing will erase some of that hard earned soil quality that you built for 7 years. Earth worm tunnels will be destroyed. The microbes will go crazy with all that oxygen and eat up some organic matter. The different soil layers will be mixed.

What impresses me the most is that you've been able to garden without using the plow. I love no-till but without herbicide it is hard and not fool proof in organic farming. I haven't figured out a good no-till system for my garden either.

If my farm had soil like that I'd be a billionaire!


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## Silvercreek Farmer

A little steam action...


----------



## light rain

Our daughter and son in law gave us one of those black tumblers for making compost. It is divided into two sections. The area on the right side is full and working. I took most of the compost out of the left side and am beginning to fill it with vegetable scraps, coffee grounds and spent mushroom compost. 

It is still going down to below 32 degrees most night. Any guess when the next batch wii be usable?

I know my effort is miniscule compared to most folks but better little than none...


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## Rafter B

where is everyone. this used to be the best post around. missing all the info and pics that used to be posted


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## Rafter B

WOW, still no one doing compost at all. everyone became an expert I guess lol


----------



## light rain

To answer my own ques. the right side will be totally ready this week. Just in time to use in planting tomatoes...


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## bmvf

We hauled 96 tons of 'compost' the past two weeks. The mostly finished stuff went on pasture that had just been cut and baled. The stuff that hadn't completely broken down was hauled on pasture ground that we plowed to reseed summer annuals for grazing. I had a few cattle mortalities this winter so we were picking out bones. Bones can be broken down but it takes a long time.

For me compost requires equipment, space and time of which I don't have much of. Right now we're turning short rows with skidloader forks which gets air in but leaves things chunky. We don't cover piles so it gets very wet, especially with wet weather from this past winter and spring. All my piles, at all stages stopped heating up. I'd love to get the neighbor a few miles down the road to bring is commercial turner but I don't have enough rows to make it worth his time. 

The neighbor talked about making compost this past February at a grazing conference I went to. He has a specific formula and adds three different innoculants at different stages of the process. He uses the compost for his organic veggy operation, his grassfed beef and also sells it to farmers. He uses it in his greenhouse and says he has no weeds since it's all compost. He showed a pic of loose leave lettuce beds which would make harvesting a breeze if you don't have to avoid weeds.


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## bobp

Our compost yard is working. We applied most of the last two years worth... it works very slowly for me. we use a mix of sawdust poultry and dairy litter, green cut hay turned in and what ever else i can get my hands on.


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## ChocolateMouse

Last years compost got applied already. I doubled my garden space this year. I got thee yards of stump grindings to mulch it. I got ten yards of woodchips delivered this week for the chicken pen, where most of my composting takes place. Someday those will be beautiful garden beds. Right now they're just nice smelling. Looks like fir, cherry and maple as the bulk of it.

Of course, I only have a quarter acre to work on.  So that's extreme for me.


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## Rafter B

thanks you all. this site keeps me motivated while I am over here. gives me something to look forward to. and I have missed it.


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## ChocolateMouse

It actually was a monumental effort to get woodchips this year. It turns out the company I used to go through changed hands and no longer does fresh woodchips. (I like having the fresh ones for my chicken pen, they're cheaper and last longer as pen bedding.) They used to do $25 delivery no matter what was in the truck, $1 a yard for woodchips which I thought was great. I would order a few yards of bed mix (which was topsoil/sand/compost) and fill the rest of the truck with woodchips for around $10. Made my life easy. But no longer.

So my quest for woodchips this year was long. I started on the first week of march and just had them delivered 3 days ago. In the process I found out that (in my area at least) Chipdrop is an awful service and I will not touch it again.  But I now have a local tree company that's been around for decades I can contact every year and get chips delivered for completely free. Which is awesome.


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## ChocolateMouse

This is the pile I got this year.  It's about 5' tall in the middle, so not too shabby. Very few branches, some leaves. We have to move this by hand 150' to my back yard as there's no way to dump into my back yard. I've got some helpers coming over on the weekend to move them. I will be feeding them with some home-grown roast chicken, rabbit and winter squash. Plus some of this year's early veggies and the mandatory beer for the gents (none of the girls like beer). We're making a Jamaican jerk chicken. Should be delicious.


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## chaossmurf

hey chocolatemouse ---ya mind throwing up that tree services info ? name & number  ---hey might not be anyone else here near you --but im sure the company would like a rave  ---all businesses like good recommendations


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## ChocolateMouse

Sure! It's definitely local, though, specific to Northeast Ohio. It's called "Forest City Tree Protection Co". They do all manner of tree services in the greater Cleveland Ohio area. (Cleveland Ohio has a lot of trees and has the nickname "Forest City" from a long time ago.) Specifically they work with the city government in my municipality and have a lot of the city tree service work contracted out to them. You will need to tell them that you're just composting it or whatever, so they will just send you whatever is in the truck instead of trying to get you very clean wood chips for landscaping (which they may also be able to do rarely). Sometimes they also have logs.

forestcitytree.com/


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## chaossmurf

hey the way I look at a truck full of compost is this ----if its pure large wood chips its useless  --it needs some leaves and seeds and logs  ---it will all eventually break down & them seeds are edible by something --or when the trees pop up id toss them in a pot & sell them as baby oaksor whatever  & if its an invasive seed that pops up ---->pull it & mulchpile it  ---and the logs  ya can always make them into mushroom logs --I cant link the mushroom-plugs link --but google mushroom dowels or mushroomplugs ---awesome ways to spawn ya own little shrooms  & maybe a smurf will make one its home 

use whats free best ya can  --or go buy ya some expensive bags of something & hope its not garbage as well ---pretty much a no-brainer


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## chaossmurf

ok I know this isn't exactly compostin as the usual idea if it is ---but anyways heres my idea that im starting a relationship with my local sewage treatment plant guy to formulate & maybe eventually get into testing ------------

take human waste sewage from the plant & copost it into woodchips --after of corse treating it & then using the byproduct in BLACK SOLDIER FLY bins to compost it with them ---then dump that onto woodchip piles -----so flush toilet--->treatment plant------>B.S.F. compostiing ----> onto woodchips---->hot composted for a few weeks ---->mixed up & delivered to cowfields/horse pastures/orange groves and other crop fields & possibly bagged for homeowners as well ?

any possible pathogen will be killed off between the treatment plants PH & temperature rules & double filtered by going through the flies & turned into a sloppy-wet basically compost tea --then the woodchips will be "inoculated" for lack of a better term with that compost tea & hot-composted as well & as they breakdown naturally over the years as well as the compost tea effects being released immediately/ faster ?

my main 2 questions are these 1st has anyone else here been involved in anything reasonably close to this idea ?? & 2nd does anyone have any suggestions &/or warnings about this idea ?? ---other than of corse the obvious make sure you get it hot enuff to kill ALL possible patogens  ---that's well covered 
and I plan on fully explaining the process on the bag itself & making it large print that its recycled human waste on every bag  so people know exactly what it is  --if its ever even sold to homeowners that is


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## ChocolateMouse

I think that you're going to start by running into some big problems. Sewage treatment centers handle a LOT more than JUST human waste. If it goes down a toilet, it ends up there. Think about this. 90% of women have used birth control in their lifetimes, almost everyone in the US has used one or another antibiotic and is on antibiotics once every few years, how will you process hormones and antibiotics out of the waste? What about insulin or antihistamines or suppressants? That stuff is excreted through urine and feces and it breaks down but it can take 10-20 years even in a compost bin. What about other things that just kinda show up in toilets? Bits of metal, dead animals, plastic toys kids flush, etc. How about household chemicals? Bleach alone for example leaves toxic chemical residues in the environment that NEVER break down. It's bad juju all around.

I L-O-V-E love the idea of composting human waste to recycle it. I think it's EXTREMELY important. We have a severely broken nutrient cycle right now where we take our nutrients out of the soil into veggies and meats, they go into humans, and then they go into sealed landfills with huge plastic liners that become superfund sites. It's frankly horrifying. But from a practical standpoint, you have to know everyone whose waste is going into it to a certain degree and how long to store and age it for if you are going to compost human waste. That means it has to be small scale (less than 200 people).

On a small-scale, composting human waste makes a lot of sense. There are communities out there that do this. Dancing Rabbit Eco Village composts all of their human waste products. I've been there, it's a beautiful system and nobody has ever gotten sick from it there. (I think they have about 60-80 people.) But on a large scale, there's no control in the process and it could make people very sick. And in the past, it's been used this way (usually without composting) and caused wide-spread illness.

Because of this, human waste is ILLEGAL to use in many areas of the US, even after composting. So I think you'll run into a huge hurdle there first. Locals laws can be changed easy enough to allow communities to compost their waste on a small scale (a few hundred people for example), but for large municipalities it's going to be nearly impossible and probably unsafe.

I suggest reading the humanure handbook to learn more about it if you haven't. It's a good place to start. Note how often it stresses to importance of knowing what's going into the compost, though. It matters. Then take it from there.


----------



## chaossmurf

well the other things in the waste stream are physically filtered out at the sewage plant ---afterall the entire thing is based on a __POST FACILITY usage

as for the hormones and other things ---that is going to go into the black soldie flies ---and we plan on testing massive doses on them in alab environment before ever going full scale ----and since the soldier flies will end up as fish food or chicken feed --im guessing it wont manage to get through --the plant -then flies -then fish or chickens ---then finally into us ??? but we wanna tets that to see ???????---and since almost all sewage plants are literally just dumping the end result on fields somewhere near them ---that are ussualy grazed by cows anyways --im thinking itd be better to watch & test --than dump it ina field & forget it ---any danged day  ---and almost none of that endchain nutrients go into landfills ---their almost all into some farmers fields somewhere nearby ---according to the sewge treatment guy whos in his 60 and has degrees from all over the world

well we fully plan on STRICK processing rules and stadards --so that it can be a rolemodel worldwide --and as close too 101 % safe as possible --hopefully higher %  hehe

I actually hadn't heard of that book --googling it now to tryto find it in the library system  ----any info about it is great --thnx for that book --hopefully its less techie than the book the guy has that seemed like all stats (not my reading strongpoint )---but it just makes sence to us both to eliminate the 2 waste streams as much a spossible ---human sewage & tree service shreddings( as well as other possible sources of plant fibers )

basically the human waste is being dumped in fields anyways that ussualy have cows actively grazing ---so treating it several more times to make it safer & safer then put on "(some)" foodcrops is much better than todays current policy of whats being done with it ---NOT to mention the chemical fertilizers factor even coming into the argument ---im wanting to make sure it doesn't go into any underground crops like carrots and taters --maybe mistakenly --but I seem to remember reding somewhere about the chances of it contaminate those crops in the industries cuent method of treating t ---however our endgoal is too make it 100% COMPLETELY SAFE FOR ANY & ALL CROP USES & DO EXTENSIVE TESTING --but that's down the road --it isn't like either of us wanna just jump into something --let alone something even remotely dangerous


----------



## bobp

The only humanure we can get locally without using a very very local source, is via the municipalitys treatment system. Fayetteville has a good one its UV treated, and they use a solar treatment on it before it is allowed to go out. They sell it first come... There's a list to get on...
We do not use it however. It's still in the ick department for me, even though logically I know it's safe.

I use no raw manure, choosing instead to use manure in my compost operation. Mine like most is carbon heavy..... Getting the nitrogen #s up is difficult... I use fresh cut green hay, and manure, and any other fresh greens I can get...But the volume I need is large and I'm so far out that it's hard to get. Off farm anyway. 
If you'll do your best to keep the C vs N ratios in line it'll work out fine given enough time..


----------



## ChocolateMouse

Here's a free pdf of the 3rd edition;
http://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html

References of human waste treatment. Most doesn't end up on fields. Most gets dumped into the environment. Some ends up in landfills, some (very little) on fields. Using it on fields is illegal in many places in the US.
https://www.quora.com/Where-does-human-waste-goes-How-is-it-processed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil


I should note, when I say on fields, I mean fields for growing human food.


----------



## chaossmurf

thnx chocolatemouse for them links  ---although I think if I was going to have written a book about composting human manure --I personally would have written it from a space aliens point of view visiting earth & make it look as though it was a report to my superiors bck on my home planet ---just because itd be funny as heck  ---im imagining some prepper using it as a guide t defend his home from space invasions  ---stop laughing yall ---theres someone out there thatd read it & belive it (once it got onto the internet ) ---ok now im going to go read them links & prepare


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Going to try and harvest some aquatic plants tomorrow for compost. Maybe a pickup load, but the primary purpose it to clean up the lake a bit. Should be an interesting experiment...use what you have and all...


----------



## light rain

Years ago I got a pickup load of lake weeds from a harvester. Sometimes there are little fish in them too. I didn't compost them just heaped them around plants. As I remember the garden did great...

Thanks for reminding me about this option!


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## ChocolateMouse

I imagine they all break down really well. I could just see it all turning into soup once they're not in growing-friendly conditions anymore.

Looks like I have a crew of about 14 coming to help me move that wood chip pile I posted. Sounds like it'll actually get done all the way in one day maybe. I expected to be working on it for the next week or two!


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Probably got 6-7 loads like this one. We just spread them around the garden plants like a mulch.


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## chaossmurf

hey silvercreek  either that lakeweed is extremely light --or the canoe is otherwise --unbalanced  hehe

I think on next few trips --id suggest Rubbermaid tubs in front of canoe (several)--too make the unloading a lot easier


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## Silvercreek Farmer

chaossmurf said:


> hey silvercreek  either that lakeweed is extremely light --or the canoe is otherwise --unbalanced  hehe
> 
> I think on next few trips --id suggest Rubbermaid tubs in front of canoe (several)--too make the unloading a lot easier


The back of the canoe was filled with the water that drained off of the weeds. Once drained they were not much different in weight than grass clippings. I bailed a little but needed a better bailer. The weeds clumped together into great big strands and came out almost like a pieces of rope. They actually handle quite well as is. I did another 3 loads this morning.


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## TroyT

Because of all the rain we get during the winter we went with a covered forced air system for composting our manure and other compostable stuff.. Here is a pic:


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

TroyT said:


> Because of all the rain we get during the winter we went with a covered forced air system for composting our manure and other compostable stuff.. Here is a pic:
> 
> View attachment 60501


Oooo... Fancy!


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Got a load from a tree guy today. He is be coming a regular, I hooked him up with a pumpkin and some peppers.


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## chaossmurf

hey silvercreek ----wht ya plan on doing with all them millions of smexy little wooden chunks f future fertilizer ((pictures)) cant wait too see what methods you implement  ((pictures)) 

and on a sidenote ----can anyone happen to advise me on wth too do with an endless supply of very very fine cypress shavings --its not the fastest wood to break down naturally --which is awesome for building my beehives / bathouses / worm composters/and a few other projects im thinking up ---BUT the shavings from my planer are building up faster than I can get them into trashcans ---sooooo....... im trying to find a way to get bacteria or fungi or worms to SPEED-PROCESS it A.S.A.P.----so does anyone know either a type of profitable shrooms that wll eat cypress or a way to sweeten the wood for them to make the shavings break down really really fast to be able to be fed to worms maybe ??? &&& yes I realize only I would ask about how to get the slowest wood type to break down--do it faster --irony


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## ChocolateMouse

Reishi or oyster might work. You can also try turkey tails. 
If you wanna break it down faster, pee on it.  The micro-organisms that break down wood feed on nitrogen (which urine is an extreme source of), so if they have a lot of nitrogen to eat there'll be more of them and they'll work faster. When they all die because they ran out of wood to eat, the nitrogen becomes bio available for plants again.


----------



## TroyT

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> Oooo... Fancy!


It's fancy, but being forced air we don't have to turn it and that saves us a bunch of time. It takes about 60 days to complete a batch, we then spread it on the pastures. It's done wonders for fly control and horse gut parasite control. Before we had this system, we would just stack all winter long and haul it off in the spring, which took a whole weekend. We called the pile Mount Turdmore.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Decided to plow one of my deep mulch beds (first time ever) to recover lost potatoes and break up the Bermuda grass that choking it out (I know, I probably just helped it out!). Plowing was actually pretty difficult with my garden tractor because of the tight grass and soft soil. Also have a pic of the potato harvest from the bed, all from about 12 lbs of seed. I did use a couple pounds of 20-10-10. The red clay is what it started out as. If I had to guess, there is probably 50 yards or so of wood chips in the bed over the past 5-6 years. The boy was very happy with his fishing worm harvest, too!


----------



## Studhauler

You have done well, turned your red clay into black dirt.


----------



## JoshuaM

We had some fun on the farm with compost today! After reading through suggestions here about flipping piles and how to add nitrogen I decided to give it a go. Over the past 12 years we have had between 30 and 80 horses at any given time with 36 stalls in the barn. Stalls are cleaned daily and bedded with shavings and we've not moved turned or used the manure pile in those 12 years (except to 'push up' the pile to make space). Because there's lots of waste hay and wood shavings I figured we'd need to add nitrogen, so I headed to the local feed store (private family owned for 4 generations and will custom mill) and bought as many "bust bags" as I could fit in my Jeep Wrangler with the seats out (gosh i need a truck) in three trips. The bust bag are a mix of oats, rye, wheat, barley, Timothy, beans, buckwheat and whatever else happened to spill. I sowed out the seeds Just before the snow finished melting and waited. The seed took this spring along with the thick grass that always grows on the pile thick enough that you can't walk through it. While waiting for the sprouts I brokered a deal with a friend who owns a CASE 9010 excavator. He gets lunch at our favourite diner, his fuel covered and can have three triaxle dump truck loads in the fall in exchange for 'flipping' the pile for us, the pile is now about 35 feet tall, 200 feet long and 60 feet wide. The machine racked up 9 hours today and the pile looks amazing, dark and damp, hot and we can't wait to spread it on the hay fields as well as use it in the garden. There's more than we could likely ever use and more being made daily! I've attached some pictures I snapped to show how it looks, but they don't do justice to the size of the pile. 
Hope this is of interest 
Josh


----------



## Oregon1986

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> Decided to plow one of my deep mulch beds (first time ever) to recover lost potatoes and break up the Bermuda grass that choking it out (I know, I probably just helped it out!). Plowing was actually pretty difficult with my garden tractor because of the tight grass and soft soil. Also have a pic of the potato harvest from the bed, all from about 12 lbs of seed. I did use a couple pounds of 20-10-10. The red clay is what it started out as. If I had to guess, there is probably 50 yards or so of wood chips in the bed over the past 5-6 years. The boy was very happy with his fishing worm harvest, too!
> 
> View attachment 60598
> View attachment 60599
> View attachment 60600


Holy potatoes


----------



## light rain

And you have lots of delicious potatoes that are fungicide free!


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## haley1

JoshuaM said:


> We had some fun on the farm with compost today! After reading through suggestions here about flipping piles and how to add nitrogen I decided to give it a go. Over the past 12 years we have had between 30 and 80 horses at any given time with 36 stalls in the barn. Stalls are cleaned daily and bedded with shavings and we've not moved turned or used the manure pile in those 12 years (except to 'push up' the pile to make space). Because there's lots of waste hay and wood shavings I figured we'd need to add nitrogen, so I headed to the local feed store (private family owned for 4 generations and will custom mill) and bought as many "bust bags" as I could fit in my Jeep Wrangler with the seats out (gosh i need a truck) in three trips. The bust bag are a mix of oats, rye, wheat, barley, Timothy, beans, buckwheat and whatever else happened to spill. I sowed out the seeds Just before the snow finished melting and waited. The seed took this spring along with the thick grass that always grows on the pile thick enough that you can't walk through it. While waiting for the sprouts I brokered a deal with a friend who owns a CASE 9010 excavator. He gets lunch at our favourite diner, his fuel covered and can have three triaxle dump truck loads in the fall in exchange for 'flipping' the pile for us, the pile is now about 35 feet tall, 200 feet long and 60 feet wide. The machine racked up 9 hours today and the pile looks amazing, dark and damp, hot and we can't wait to spread it on the hay fields as well as use it in the garden. There's more than we could likely ever use and more being made daily! I've attached some pictures I snapped to show how it looks, but they don't do justice to the size of the pile.
> Hope this is of interest
> Josh


Bet that soil under that pile is awesome after having that leach down through the years.


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## JoshuaM

haley1 said:


> Bet that soil under that pile is awesome after having that leach down through the years.


Sadly the pile is where the original liquid pig manure pit was when the barn was built, then the next owners filled it with scrap metal, railroad ties, logs and boulders then lit the whole mess on fire and collapsed the pit, filled it with pit run gravel and left it. So there zéro topsoil under all the manure, hence why we need to spread it or build gardens elsewhere with it


----------



## JoshuaM

Took some new photos of the pile today while doing stalls now that its all done being turned. holy moly is it ever dark! wheelbarrow for scale


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## secuono

What a great thread, and to be going on over all these years, very cool.


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## bobp

I highly recommend those who haven't done so read from the beginning... It's a good one...

We work as often as we can in our compost operation... My biggest complaint is that it takes a very long time to get it completed....For me at any rate... We could use 10 times more than I produce... But we still haul in more carbon, and try to get it right before we lay it out...And turn it undsr


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## Mupwi

hi just thaught id share my steaming pile its only about 1m3 at this point but will be starting to grow exponentialy going forward I moved to this property around 5 months ago and have a few cows and a small broiler operation the main inputs into the pile are spoiled hay from the cows a bit of their manure(rotationaly grazed so most is streight on the field) and all the wood shaving/manure from the brooder also compost any birds that die in the brooder. ive doubled broiler production from this month and got a new source of old spoiled hay so as I said will start growing much faster now hoping to get a chipper soon to chip all the saplings im clearing from my old overgrown fields.


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## bobp

Load # 4 of 10 tri-axel loads of sawdust I traded for. 

The driver asked if I could take more than what I traded for. I said when you hit 100 loads let's re-discuss....I explained all the uses I have... Compost carbon base, mulch, pig bedding ECT.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

I read this whole thread a while back, but can't remember...... will a good pile cook down poison ivy vines such as these? I know you're not supposed to burn them and I know that even after they're dead they still have the oil on them. If I can put them in a compost pile and have them cook down without releasing oil or seeds to sprout all over the place, maybe that's my answer, I don't know.


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## chaossmurf

im just imagining the worms in your composting bin ---praying to their worm gods,,,,,, for calamine lotion bottles


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## bobp

I wouldn't put the poison oak vines in my compost with out grinding... It would break down eventually...But the long woody vines wouldn't likley break down in a year... I'd cut it and leave it to rot.


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## bobp

We're up to 11 loads now...
I just wish I had a good nitrogen source for composting







what's left after we get done mulching Blueberries, elderberries, and Raspberries...


----------



## Silvercreek Farmer

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> I read this whole thread a while back, but can't remember...... will a good pile cook down poison ivy vines such as these? I know you're not supposed to burn them and I know that even after they're dead they still have the oil on them. If I can put them in a compost pile and have them cook down without releasing oil or seeds to sprout all over the place, maybe that's my answer


I wouldn't put them anywhere near my compost. I'm sure it will break down, but probably not before I get it all over myself!


----------



## Lookin4GoodLife

So what happens if I have tons and tons of vines that I dump somewhere to "rot" and that sprouts out? Somewhere on my property, I'm going to have a PI jungle that I'll have to deal with at some point. Not trying to be difficult, I just don't know what to do with miles of vines I cut off good timber to run through my sawmill.


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## bobp

Cut off of logs and piled it shouldn't sprout. I would expect that it'll sprout back out from below the cut.
I wouldn't bury 1st yr new wood. It could sprout. The dry wood won't. And if you're worried pile it on top of a pile of tree tops to dry on out..
If I were very concerned I believe I'd spray it with remedy or 24d. 
You can use 24d as a stump pour after the vine or tree is cut, put a few drops on the cut site. Drill holes and fill it for larger stumps. 

Also alot of it may not be poison oak. There's hundreds of vines that grow in North America, a few come to mind... Virginia Creeper, fragrant sumac.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

I guess I can dump it all in one area and just keep an eye on it occasionally. Spray anything I see sprouting. Most of what I'm looking at is poison ivy and I just want to cut out a section to keep it from strangling the trees as I start managing my timber. I'll leave it out of my compost though. Thanks for the advice!


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## RonM

How can I send a message ( question) to Forerunner


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## bobp

Try to send PM under his profile


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## RonM

I tried that , didn't seem to work for me..


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## RonM

Forerunner how big a disk do you pull with the 3020, how big with the 4630....


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## Forerunner

RonM said:


> Forerunner how big a disk do you pull with the 3020, how big with the 4630....


Sorry for my absense, of late.
Life tends to catch up and, well, I thought it would be good for others to express themselves here, without me, for a time. 

Still doing what I do, same land, same 3020 and same 4630. 

In average to good conditions, the 3020 can handle a 12-14' disc, sustainably.
The 4630 hasn't been tested to its max while on my watch, but it is turned up considerably from factory settings. I think the one a friend brought over for me to use was a 24'....didn't have it for long, or need one that big.... Certainly had no trouble making dirt fly in the field.

Why do you ask, if I might ?


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## RonM

Just crious , a friend has a 3020 and he puts a 10 ft behind it , says that,s enough, I thought maybe a 12 ft I used to have a 4010 and pulled a 12 ft with ease...


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## HeavyHauler

I just finished reading all 194 pages of this thread. Took me a few days, but I did it.

I got my start composting by fostering a half lb of worms. That half lb of worms has made me over 10lbs of worm castings. I now have 2 colonies and will soon be making them into four colonies.

I'm the only one left with worms, all of the other foster worms have died. The lady in charge of the green program at the local elementary school has asked me if I could supply them with some worms come spring; I said of course, it's only fair.

I live in the far north, above the 55th parallel in a small mining city. I work 12 hour night shifts here at the nickel mine.

Anyway, I planted my first seed garden last year and it did tremendous by just digging up my yard with my shovel and turning the grass and assorted plants into it.

But now, I'm a vermicomposter and I have my eyes set on becoming a composter. While I can't have a huge pile, I can still have a pile. We don't have farms up here, but we do have a small stable where people keep a couple pet horses and have to have hay/straw/feed transported up here for them.

I'm hoping to grab all of their horse droppings and straw this spring. Also pick up wood chips from the city yard.

I like to grow organically and my thumbs both seem to be pretty green.

I'll be digging up more of my yard this spring to expand my garden in my front and back yard.

I'm hoping to be able to buy land up here, which is next to impossible because it's all crown/band land; but sometimes it does go up for sale.

I'm a heavy equipment operator, but the machines we run are huge compared to what y'all are using. But I have access to all of them to use as needed for anything I may require of them. Semi's with end dumps, tandems, 40 ton rock trucks, komatsu 500 loaders and cat 980h/m/g loaders, and Cat d8 dozers; as well as a few smaller loaders and some skidsteers.

I run my worm operation in my basement, as it gets down to -55c most of the winter up here. Say I get some land up here and able to build myself a giant compost pile; using the abundant wood chips (we're surrounded by trillions of pine), moose/bear/fish/etc carcasses, bush plants, horse stall cleanings, leaves/dry pine needles, grass clippings and whatever else. 

Could my pile stay warm throughout our brutally (I love it) winter?


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## Forerunner

Fantastic intro, Heavyhauler.....

I love the far north......and must have lived there and thrived, in a former life.

YES !! A well-formed and nutrient-balanced pile will heat and maintain in the most extreme conditions on earth, provided you have enough mass, and that you might be able to construct the pile in more favorable weather. In extreme cold, you might be able to jumpstart an otherwise cold but well-balanced pile with five gallons of near boiling water poured directly in the center of the pile. For mass, in your conditions, a tandem load of material would likely be a minimum.

Will you be backing that mine truck into your yard to drop off the first accumulation of horse stall cleanings ?


----------



## HeavyHauler

Forerunner said:


> Fantastic intro, Heavyhauler.....
> 
> I love the far north......and must have lived there and thrived, in a former life.
> 
> YES !! A well-formed and nutrient-balanced pile will heat and maintain in the most extreme conditions on earth, provided you have enough mass, and that you might be able to construct the pile in more favorable weather. In extreme cold, you might be able to jumpstart an otherwise cold but well-balanced pile with five gallons of near boiling water poured directly in the center of the pile. For mass, in your conditions, a tandem load of material would likely be a minimum.
> 
> Will you be backing that mine truck into your yard to drop off the first accumulation of horse stall cleanings ?


Hahahaha, the wife might object; but that's alright.


----------



## Rafter B

I got some cool news soooo excited. Lol. I am staying in El Paso Texas right now, in between contracts overseas. So convinced my GF to start composting. I can only have a pallet bin, but as of yesterday it is steaming. I’ll have to figure out how to post pics, but just had to share that. It has pretty much everything in there. Kitchen scraps, coffee grounds, yard waste, leaves and even some straw we had.


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## Forerunner

Rafter B said:


> I got some cool news soooo excited. Lol. I am staying in El Paso Texas right now, in between contracts overseas. So convinced my GF to start composting. I can only have a pallet bin, but as of yesterday it is steaming. I’ll have to figure out how to post pics, but just had to share that. It has pretty much everything in there. Kitchen scraps, coffee grounds, yard waste, leaves and even some straw we had.


Congrats, getting a pallet pile to steam. 
You gotta have your ducks in a row to pull that one off....


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## Rafter B

At least you get it. My Gf is wondering what’s the big deal. 

It’s just by luck really. Whatever I can find I throw in there. Starting another pile and tempted to go to the local Walmart produce section and ask what they do with all their rotten stuff.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

Rafter B said:


> At least you get it. My Gf is wondering what’s the big deal.


Same here Rafter..... I have 6 chickens and 3 7'x7' bins made out of pallets. VERY little food has to go to waste. My wife cooks 2-3 times a week and my sister-in-law who lives straight across the street from us cooks pretty much every night, plus cooks food to take to their shop to feed everyone there. I've asked them a hundred times and even provided covered plastic buckets and they just throw food straight in the trash can. (sigh) My pile is mostly egg shells, coffee grounds and used chicken litter layered with leaves and pine straw. I haven't gotten it to steam yet, but I don't really spend any time on it. I don't have any water yet over there at the farm where it is so the only water it gets is when it rains, so I'm guessing it doesn't stay wet enough the rest of the time. Oh well, at least I know things are breaking down because it's looking ok every time I dig a hole in it to deposit new stuff...... I have to bury stuff to keep the raccoons out of it.  At least we're making the effort and things are progressing. Once I have more of a regular schedule I will ask about waste food as well. My son is a school teacher so maybe they'll give me their pre-consumer waste if I provide the trash cans and can manage a regular pick up schedule.


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## Rafter B

Because I am in hot El Paso right now, I water my pile once every morning to keep it wet. 

But hey keep it up and do what you can. I guess my local Walmart idea is a busy, they give a farmer that they get the meat from all their rotten produce. But I got one more place to check, as well as checking the a Duncan donuts to see if they can save their coffee grounds.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

Walmart gets their meat from a local farmer?! Wow.  You'd think they'd get it from some conglomerate somewhere! LOL That's awesome. Check with that farmer..... maybe he takes it all just to get part of it or something and he'd split it with you. Or maybe one or two days in his schedule isn't convenient and you could pick it up just that day..... worth a shot if you can find out who he is.


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## Rafter B

Yeah. I couldn’t believe it. At least at the neighbor hood Walmart. Yeah I’ll have to check with that farmer whoever it is.


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## Forerunner

Testing.....

Last time I tried, loading pics was a nightmare from a cell phone....


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## bobp

Looks good. The grapes don't look like they had too much vigor....the compost ditch worked out


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## Forerunner

bobp said:


> Looks good. The grapes don't look like they had too much vigor....the compost ditch worked out


The compost ditch is working, but there is an encroaching treeline from the south that will need attention soon....the grapes need a bit more sun.


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## bobp

Ya there's always something encroaching or creeping in where it shouldn't


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## dsmythe

Rafter B;
If you have a local Food Pantry that gives away food check with them. Our food pantry gets a lot of stuff donated. Some it is great as we can share it with others. Some of it is not usable and we have a farmer who will come and pick it up when we call. Dsmythe


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## Rafter B

dsmythe said:


> Rafter B;
> If you have a local Food Pantry that gives away food check with them. Our food pantry gets a lot of stuff donated. Some it is great as we can share it with others. Some of it is not usable and we have a farmer who will come and pick it up when we call. Dsmythe



Ok. Ill check into that and see what i can turn up. Also have a sheriff posse stable across the street. Would love to find out what they do with their manure. I can’t take to much. But could use some.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

I've got a question that came to mind from a question I posted on another forum and it made me start thinking. I thought this might be a better place to ask..... when you're using your compost to add tilth to your fields, do you have to check or be concerned about the ph of your compost? I guess my real question is, do certain things you add to your compost change the ph of the final product and do you need to check that as you go along, or does that matter?


----------



## dsmythe

Rafter B said:


> Ok. Ill check into that and see what i can turn up. Also have a sheriff posse stable across the street. Would love to find out what they do with their manure. I can’t take to much. But could use some.


Rafter B;
Be VERY careful with animal manure. The hay that they have eaten (the horses) is a LARGE problem. The pasture is sometimes sprayed with "Grazon, and/or other like minded herbicides. I hauled tons of manure from our local sale barn. They would even load it for me. I spread it every place I could think of to plant a garden. IT literally ruined my garden for produce. I have the most beautiful grass you have ever seen but my vegetables have ALL withered and DIED.
I would even caution you about using hay for any kind of mulch. I have done a little bit of research on the subject on "YOUTUBE" plus Extension services. They have confirmed what I have posted here. Dsmythe


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## Lookin4GoodLife

If you had composted it first and got it hot enough, would it have killed that you think? Or once it's in there, it's in there?


----------



## dsmythe

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> If you had composted it first and got it hot enough, would it have killed that you think? Or once it's in there, it's in there?


I honestly don't know but I do know that you can grow corn with it, I just don't eat that much corn. I have read that it should be gone in about 3 years. It has only been one year so far. I plan to buy some screened top soil. I will have to make sure it did not come out of a pasture.
We really don't depend on a garden we just enjoy the proceeds of one. I will probably get some more manure but only plan to put it out in my pasture. I have a large pile composting as we speak, it has a beautiful stand of grass on it. Dsmythe


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## Lookin4GoodLife

Wow, that's something to think about. Maybe you need to strain it through chickens first like Geoff Lawton does in his Chicken Tractor on Steroids video.  Thanks for the info!


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## Rafter B

dsmythe said:


> Rafter B;
> Be VERY careful with animal manure. The hay that they have eaten (the horses) is a LARGE problem. The pasture is sometimes sprayed with "Grazon, and/or other like minded herbicides. I hauled tons of manure from our local sale barn. They would even load it for me. I spread it every place I could think of to plant a garden. IT literally ruined my garden for produce. I have the most beautiful grass you have ever seen but my vegetables have ALL withered and DIED.
> I would even caution you about using hay for any kind of mulch. I have done a little bit of research on the subject on "YOUTUBE" plus Extension services. They have confirmed what I have posted here. Dsmythe





Ok. I will do that. Thanks for the heads up.


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## bobp

I haul in liquid dairy manure and laying house litter and add to my compost yard. I don't worry a whole lot about residues that passed through the animals...most of what would be used on them isn't a soil active compound that would hurt what I'm doing with it.


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## Rafter B

My compost is heating up nicely so I am sure everything is getting processed well. 

And wow. Liquid manure. That’s great. Sure your compost is hot as well.


----------



## FreeRange

I just spread a compost pile that has been cooking for a long time. I used the no turn method and didn't think it would work. I fully expected it to be full of mold and still identifiable parts, but it is some of the prettiest compost I've seen in awhile. So excited!


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## Rafter B

That is great Free range. Good for you. That is what forerunner always says he does, not even mess with it and it turns out as it should. As for me, I can’t stand not to mess with it lol. I have to “play” with the dirt.


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## FreeRange

Rafter B said:


> That is great Free range. Good for you. That is what forerunner always says he does, not even mess with it and it turns out as it should. As for me, I can’t stand not to mess with it lol. I have to “play” with the dirt.


LOL. I put mine far back from the house so I kind of forgot about it. But I have another one that just reached the top and I'm itching to see what it looks like at the bottom.


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## InvalidID

This is still the best thread on HT. Glad to see it's still going.


----------



## light rain

InvalidID said:


> This is still the best thread on HT. Glad to see it's still going.


I wish it were more active...


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## Rafter B

InvalidID said:


> This is still the best thread on HT. Glad to see it's still going.


Your so right. It is the best one. Guess we all need to add to it and keep it going. I have gone back to the beginning so many times just to recap.


----------



## kens

I haven't been to this forum since 2014 and this was on my check list Today. Is Forerunner still active in it or not??


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## Rafter B

I guess not. Lol. I haven’t seen him on here in a long time.


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## Forerunner

I think he dropped his phone in the water back in November (his only source to online) and then got way busy trying to keep up with the fast pace that life occasionally takes.....and then his 4630 Deere went down.....

Lots to catch up on, but suffice to say that the operation has only grown since day one, and there has been a tractor upgrade. (going to fix the 46 come summer)

Aaaaaaand the site is STILL not letting me upload pictures, 
which is a lot of why I have not kept up with my postings in the thread.....and, still not over the site blowup that happened some while back.

Real-time, there are more yards/tons of hot compost cooking around here, than ever.....just wish there were better ways to share.


----------



## Rafter B

That’s crazy it won’t let you upload photos. I have actually gone back to the beginning and re reading the post. For like the hundredth time. Lol


----------



## Forerunner

There we go......must be someone in the office, this a.m.


----------



## Rafter B

That is a cool tractor. Got to love it.


----------



## Forerunner

Rafter B said:


> That is a cool tractor. Got to love it.


It is a big step up......2.5 tons heavier, 40 more horses, front wheel assist.....radio works good. 

Seriously though.....my late Pop and his Pop were dedicated old school a John Deere enthusiasts.
No doubt they are happy to see me rolling along in style.

Now that I can do pics, I’ll get some of the new trailers and the operation in the next few.


----------



## bobp

Good to see you back and in action ole boy!


----------



## Forerunner

bobp said:


> Good to see you back and in action ole boy!


Thanks !! 

.......and moving just a little slower than in my peak days......


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## Rafter B

That is so wonderful. Good for you. Can’t wait to see more photos of the operation.


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## light rain

Forerunner said:


> Thanks !!
> 
> .......and moving just a little slower than in my peak days......


Hey, that's just the way it is. Each decade comes with new parameters, but, the most important thing is...keep on moving...


----------



## Forerunner

Been trying to load photos for a week now.
The grape row pic I put up some time ago was a fluke....just happened to stick after multiple tries.
The tractor pic appears to be the same deal....a glitch.
Hard to get excited about posting without visuals.


----------



## elkhound

Forerunner said:


> It is a big step up......2.5 tons heavier, 40 more horses, front wheel assist.....radio works good.
> 
> Seriously though.....my late Pop and his Pop were dedicated old school a John Deere enthusiasts.
> No doubt they are happy to see me rolling along in style.
> 
> Now that I can do pics, I’ll get some of the new trailers and the operation in the next few.



i still like the dozer the best !! only serious folks have one !! you sir are the compost king...hands down !!


----------



## Forerunner

Oh, you do go on, so.....

Good to see you, too, old buddy ! 

Dozer has developed intermittent fuse box holder issues.
Mouse urine is very corrosive, and I gotta sleep sometimes !!

Otherwise she’s goin’ strong.


----------



## Grapescott

Boy- how things change (or stay the same) in four years...

I last posted back in pages 170's..... 

I like to see this thread get up and running like the good ol' days...

Anyway- I got out the the composting game for a while, mostly due to a bad hip. My garden area is 100 yards to the back of my 2 acres and it was getting progressively difficult getting back there.

Took the plunge and got a new hip January 4th! Rehab went beyond what I expected. I even started a light running routine agin. Needless to say, getting back to the garden is now a non-issue.

Since 2015 we have added a small (12) flock of chickens, and two more dogs (my kid no longer can keep dogs at her apartment).

Oh, and I added a bx1880, a(baby) front end loader. 

I read this thread over from my last posts and the composting bug has infected my again!

Out here in the Pinelands of NJ I have more C than I could possibly use on my small garden, but I do like to see orderly mountains of the stuff!

Pics to follow

(Hi, Forerunner- git back to the thread...you do inspire us minor leaguers)


----------



## Rafter B

I know right. It does the same to me. Whenever I need to get inspired I go back and read from the beginning. 

I am down to one active pile (small pallet thing do to lack of space), but I spread one pile in garden. Wished I could post pics. But everything is growing like crazy already.


----------



## ajeoc

I have been following this thread off and on for 5 years while building a few relatively small compost piles of my own. 
This spring I finally was able to find a deal on a pto driven chipper and have been happy to get some trees cleaned up and have a great source of carbon. Sometimes I have been able to blow the chips onto a wagon and at others they go to the ground then loaded onto the wagon later. Well, unfortunately it appears that is have transplanted some poison ivy from one of these ground chip piles to my compost area. :-( nothing terrible yet and I caught it early enough that I hope some manual removal of vines will nip it in the bud. Anyway as I was out there trying to get rid of the poison ivy I thought to myself that of all the people in the world that might understand my problem it would be all of you. 
Happy composting. Building soil is a great investment.


----------



## light rain

ajeoc said:


> I have been following this thread off and on for 5 years while building a few relatively small compost piles of my own.
> This spring I finally was able to find a deal on a pto driven chipper and have been happy to get some trees cleaned up and have a great source of carbon. Sometimes I have been able to blow the chips onto a wagon and at others they go to the ground then loaded onto the wagon later. Well, unfortunately it appears that is have transplanted some poison ivy from one of these ground chip piles to my compost area. :-( nothing terrible yet and I caught it early enough that I hope some manual removal of vines will nip it in the bud. Anyway as I was out there trying to get rid of the poison ivy I thought to myself that of all the people in the world that might understand my problem it would be all of you.
> Happy composting. Building soil is a great investment.


And that investment will keep on adding dividends to that soil long past the time your are involved...
I've got 3 turning composters and will start cutting more giant ragweed and sunchokes to add more matter. Also comfrey leaves.


----------



## Forerunner

If you have a loader (or a sharp shovel) just keep turning that ivy into the pile, buried in the heat, and it will get the hint.
Ivy roots are persistent, so be sure to get the roots cut or that portion of ground buried under a hot pile for a few months, minimum.


----------



## Tanglewood homesteaders

I am starting small collecting the compost from under downed black walnut and oak that has been there 15 to 20 years. Now mixing it in my garden needs. Plan on using wood chips from the top for mulch. We will see how it goes. For me seems more efficient than hauling at least for now. You're pile is impressive.


----------



## crabtree

Dose any one have a Dr. David Johnson I was wondering if it is as good as Dr. Johnson says it is.
*Johnson Su Bioreactor*
*



*


----------



## Curtman

I can't read through this whole thread too many posts and it may have been posted before but I'll tell you as far as your breaking down compost the way I did it on the farm was everything from chicken manure two fishbone in old feed thermoplan that made fish food I took the by-products the phone herring yes house thing some of the feed wild at all on my compost and kept putting it on or not keeping it covered with plastic.
When I had a mountain of that stuff or anything else that would come post including chippers product I'd run down to the feed and grain store that always kept me a good supply of hydrated lime play that stuff on top of that cover with a plastic take it off on a rainy day cover it back up I let it cook I can literally see that plastic breaking it down getting smaller closer to the Earth what you wind up with a bunch of more alkaline soil then acidic. You could grow the greenest grass you ever scene almost blue when you line a field before you see or spread it on your lawn.
Hydrated lime or quicklime it's a great tool if you live in a pine forest you can turn your garden area into high alkaline and grow things like you've never seen before just don't get that lime on your skin and let it get wet it'll burn the daylights out of you. It's the hydrochloric acid of the farming industry.


----------



## crabtree

I have only 19 acres & am using biomass from perential vegetables as a renewable resort. I know a backyard gardener who calls
it survival food, but we just like the taste. The Jerusalem artichoke, asparagus,yacon, also corn, okra & sunflowers make a lot of biomass for composting.I"ve few cow & pigs will pasture, so they will self spread alone with the chickens. Maybe some hybrid tree as a windbreak for the fruit trees.


----------



## Curtman

Those Jerusalem Artichokes yea there good but I would grow them in a cold frame.
I planted about 1/4 acre one time next thing I knew they were taking over two acres and looking to take over the farm. Grow like Bamboo, very invasive I went on the middle of the in the spring with my backhoe and dug a big hole into and just under the water table. I fenced it in with heave wire mesh steel panels and let the hogs in. Laughed my self off the tractor every time I drove by. about a year later, yes a year they stared looking outside the mesh so I went inside withe adjustable posts adjustabele plastic insulatores and strung an electric fence about 8" of the ground


crabtree said:


> I have only 19 acres & am using biomass from perential vegetables as a renewable resort. I know a backyard gardener who calls
> it survival food, but we just like the taste. The Jerusalem artichoke, asparagus,yacon, also corn, okra & sunflowers make a lot of biomass for composting.I"ve few cow & pigs will pasture, so they will self spread alone with the chickens. Maybe some hybrid tree as a windbreak for the fruit trees.


 Jerusalem artichoke? I love them but plant them in cold frames not on the farmland, grows like bamboo very invasive. When the get away from you let me know and I will give my methods.


----------



## Curtman

Got to move the hogs into a pen in the late fall and winter where lived anyway. Fall was just as good as I had to finish out my feeders on fresh water and cracked corn a month before I butcher and sold them off. I never butcher out a hog or beef without flushing the and putting the marble in the meat. For me grass fed beef straight to the butcher, YUK.
Beef, keep them knee deep in clover or timothy but finish with lots of fresh water and grain.


----------



## crabtree

They go for $14.00 to $18.00 a pound, you had a gold mine, at least the hogs got full.
The deer eat my first crop & killed them, never been invasive here. They are a North American wild edible flower,leaf, tuber.
I have never fould a large mass of them in the wild, the grazer keep them in control & the wild pigs may have ate them all.
I believe you had that problem, but I am going to keep all mine in beds, anything leaves the bed gets eaten. I am with you, if I have more than I can sale or eat, the pigs will feast.
Yacon is a lot lest trouble, it will freeze in most of the USA & Canada, I take small sprouts in pot in door.


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## Curtman

Yea but a lot of work and this 18 years ago.
The same year on another place of the farm I took $34,000.00 of two acres of Peruvian Purples potatoes. on another field about 50 acres I took 650 tons of Pontiac's or what you call new red potatoes, I had a Big Lockwood Combine and six laborers on the back me in the cab of the tractor with the a/c and the stereo goingif the needed my attentio the had to throw a potato at the back of the cab.


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## Curtman

You want to grow a cash crop today grow burdock harvest the root it's a blood cleanser will grow anywhere. we planted in rows roots are brittle so have to dig down one side then the other for root sales.
or you take it out put it through a grinder and let it air dry.Big demand.
or if you want to take a step farther you can grind it. Huge demand. 
as there is no combine to harvest that in whole root form I had to create one in the shop. worked very well.


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## light rain

Curtman said:


> You want to grow a cash crop today grow burdock harvest the root it's a blood cleanser will grow anywhere. we planted in rows roots are brittle so have to dig down one side then the other for root sales.
> or you take it out put it through a grinder and let it air dry.Big demand.
> or if you want to take a step farther you can grind it. Huge demand.
> as there is no combine to harvest that in whole root form I had to create one in the shop. worked very well.


Gobo! Especially valued by the Oriental cultures. Grows in mass at the Columbus Zoo...


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## Zzs

Forerunner said:


> I've put this off long enough.
> 
> It snowed....... again.:grumble:
> 
> My work outside is buried.
> The timing of the Michigan meeting and the need for incentive
> inspires me, so, here goes......
> 
> 
> I have long been an extremist, taking normal activities to their absolute most ridiculous extreme for no other reason than to amuse myself with what can be done by one man if effort is applied...... and, composting is no exception.
> I had no long-term ambitions when I started my first pile in the late 90s, (after a few years dormancy since my youth) other than to make fertile soil to feed my family. Well, as usual, opportunities have since come knocking and I've turned none of them away. Things got out of hand....
> 
> This isn't my first pile, and I didn't build it just with that pitchfork.....but I don't have a picture of my first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a dated pile, taken a month before the power company came to take their poles....
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of what was the biggest pile for a couple years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another shot of that pile as it grew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Here are the humble beginnings of the new, main pile, as the latter has been spread on the fields.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Here's another pile built from our own stall cleanings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....and here is an up and coming compost engineer standing on the new, main pile as it grows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The focus of this thread is going to be on sources of material and how one man can make extensive use of what the world throws away.
> Obviously, if this catches on, such waste material will regain its long lost sense of value, and I say it can't happen soon enough.
> Between the yard waste, farm waste, kitchen/restaurant waste, sale barns, food processing plants, sawmills, animal shelters, barber shops, stone cutting facilities, municipal sewage disposal, etc. there is ample, mineral and nutrient-rich material being wasted to at least keep ME up nights...
> 
> Following will be a rather haphazard narration, illustrated, of how I've made use of what is readily available. I have tried to get others interested, and they are, but they like to watch me, rather than take up the pitchfork, themselves. The day will come, I am sure, but until then, I gather.....
> 
> Feel free to comment. I'm going to make installments to this thread over the course of the next week or so.


I think what you are doing is awesome.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Tried composting carp carcasses this spring. Holy stink! Went back and added twice as much woodchips as I do for pig/sheep/deer. Didn't help! We just had to wait it out, over 3 weeks before things settled down! I might try anarobic next year in a sealed drum..


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## WinonaRail

First post here. I'm still about 30 pages from reading all the way through to the end. I've been keeping notes and continue to add nuggets from the wealth of great information here. I just wanted to mention that I saw a tree cutter hauling a chipper on my way home from work yesterday, so naturally I stopped to talk with him. With any luck he'll be delivering some chips soon!


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## Always

Forerunner said:


> If you have a loader (or a sharp shovel) just keep turning that ivy into the pile, buried in the heat, and it will get the hint.
> Ivy roots are persistent, so be sure to get the roots cut or that portion of ground buried under a hot pile for a few months, minimum.


Yukyuk, check your personal message inbox.


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## WinonaRail

I just got my first load of wood chips from Chipdrop. Turns out a tree service took 3 trees down less than a half mile from me. They promised 1-2 more loads. They're already spoken for as mulch but I hope to get some more to jump start a new compost pile.


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## Rafter B

WinonaRail said:


> I just got my first load of wood chips from Chipdrop. Turns out a tree service took 3 trees down less than a half mile from me. They promised 1-2 more loads. They're already spoken for as mulch but I hope to get some more to jump start a new compost pile.


That’s so cool. Let’s us know how that turns out with your compost pile. I just moved to Michigan a couple of months ago, so can’t wait to find a place of my own. There are wood chips galore around here. Should work will with a bunch of cow manure.


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## WinonaRail

Rafter B said:


> That’s so cool. Let’s us know how that turns out with your compost pile. I just moved to Michigan a couple of months ago, so can’t wait to find a place of my own. There are wood chips galore around here. Should work will with a bunch of cow manure.


I'm on my third delivery of chips but still none have made it to the compost pile. I really need more chips!


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## Rafter B

Oh wow. That’s great. It’ll make amazing compost


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## WIWinterman

I read "Successful Farming" magazine. Although they frequently promote mega-scale industrial farming techniques, I've noticed a shift in the past few years encouraging soil health practices. A recent article discussed compost benefits. This section resonated with "Extreme Composting" ... take a read:
*___*
*TWO MICROBIAL KEYS *
Two key players driving the system are the microbes fungi and bacteria. 
“Fungi and bacteria provide the foundation for soil biological ecosystems, and estimates of their population and structure appear to provide an accurate measure of ecosystem health and productivity,” says Johnson.
Proper balance between the two groups of microbes is key, with fungal domination of the microbial community most healthful for soils. 
This was dramatically borne out when Johnson developed a low-cost composting system for manure. *He didn’t turn the compost and found that a static composting process yielded a compost highly populated with fungi.*
“The product from the unturned compost had four times the microbial biodiversity and four times the fungal biomass of the turned compost,” he says. “*Turning the compost destroys the development of the fungal community. Without the fungi, the compost is not as beneficial to the soil*.”
*__*


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## Max Overhead

I'm saving this thread to read through it (I've only gone a couple pages) but you are a hero to me, sir. People treat as trash the things which belong to the soil. I vermicompost and I collect leaves in the fall, but your operation takes my breath away. I have heard of one similar, in Florida, which is depicted in a book entitled "Dirt, the Ecstatic Skin of the Earth". And I have read old books of farms (at least one on record) which ran vermicomposting on an industrial scale. I once sat and drank with a man that claimed a friend of his in the mountains had stumbled onto a microorganism which composted wood chips in a matter of days, and that long story short, Feds showed up and shut him down. That inspired this story: Trash the Myth


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## SmokeEater2

This awesome thread seems to have gone dormant..Much like I do sometimes.

Anyway, I found a new carbon source yesterday that I'd overlooked for a long time. One of our daughters works in a Doc's office and they fine shred lots of paper daily so disposal is a problem for them.

I brought home 8 large trash bags of shredded paper yesterday to work into the piles. Since we have lots of oak trees and the leaves are starting to fall I'm going to be carbon rich and nitrogen poor for a while.

I'm thinking about using Alfalfa pellets to add nitrogen if I need to. Has anyone ever tried that when they were short on N?


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## Tom Horn

I worked on a 300 head total confinement dairy in Connecticut, cripes! 40 years ago.

I operated a manure handling system that we referred to as a bio-fermenter.

On the outside it looked like a large two bay wood frame, shop building.

Inside it had a concrete floor with channels spaced around two feet apart.

In the bottom of those channels was perforated schedule 40 around 3-4" in diameter, covered with pea gravel.

We would mix manure with sawdust to a specific moisture content.

This was accomplished by wet weighing a sample, burning off the moisture in a microwave and reweighing.

Once proper moisture was achieved the bio-fermenter was loaded. 

We had a Michigan 175A Seies 2 rubber-tired loader with a three-yard bucket with a six-cylinder Detroit.












Once loaded the doors were shut and the blowers were set.

They were on a 24-hour timer and the process took around a week.

The action of oxygen being forced upward through the manure hastened the decomposition process.

It also caused the manure to get hot.

I do believe that we took temperature readings through the process as well.

When it was cooked the resulting compost was black in color. 

The heat had sterilized it to where there were no viable seeds in the end product.

We sold just about everything we could produce.


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## BigHenTinyBrain

SmokeEater2 said:


> This awesome thread seems to have gone dormant..Much like I do sometimes.
> 
> Anyway, I found a new carbon source yesterday that I'd overlooked for a long time. One of our daughters works in a Doc's office and they fine shred lots of paper daily so disposal is a problem for them.
> 
> I brought home 8 large trash bags of shredded paper yesterday to work into the piles. Since we have lots of oak trees and the leaves are starting to fall I'm going to be carbon rich and nitrogen poor for a while.
> 
> I'm thinking about using Alfalfa pellets to add nitrogen if I need to. Has anyone ever tried that when they were short on N?



I love using shredded paper in bedding and in the barn. Not solo, but mixed with my other bedding material. It breaks down in the compost pile much more quickly than I would have imagined if it's been coated first with chicken or cow manure.


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## Lila108

I just registered here solely to post on this thread. Forerunner, I want you to know how wonderful and inspiring all of this is. I read this entire thread back in 2018 and it has always stuck with me. It improved my thinking on a lot of things. Mainly composting, but life in general too  You describe yourself as a "man of action" and you sure do get things done. But at the same time, you say that when you meet setbacks, you see them as opportunities to cultivate patience. I would love to be more like that. So much of what you write is just so inspiring. I'm now going back and reading through it again, when I need to rest from working outside, because it sure is a good read!

I'll never do what you did, because I will never have the machinery you have, but that is ok. I am doing what I can in my situation. I do have a pickup truck, and I collect compost materials at every opportunity. Mainly truckload after truckload of autumn leaves. Leaf mold on its own is an amazing thing. But I also have chickens and goats, who contribute plenty of nitrogen. I just moved to a new property 1 year ago, and already I am seeing improvement in the soil. I am so looking forward to seeing that snowball into wonderful, rich soil over time. I only have 3 1/2 acres, but I am going to turn it into the best 3 1/2 acres that I can. 

Anyway, I mostly wanted you to know people are still reading this thread, over a decade later, and benefiting from it. I hope all is well with you, your family, and all of your endeavors.


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## Jenn

I am in hog heaven now living in town gathering everyone's curbside bagged garden waste this fall. At the old place it was a 20 minute drive into town to gather leaves and I had to make sure I didn't lose bags on the highway at 50 mph. I teased that I'd put 2' of leaves over the entire yard; right now I have about 1/3 the front lawn covered in pine straw or my raised beds, and have the paths between the raised beds in back mulched with magnolia leaves and 5 now separate piles of material covering maybe 10% of the back yard aside from the raised beds and walkways between them. Have to leave some lawn for the dog. I enjoy wasting gas driving the truck around neighborhoods before the garbage trucks pick stuff up and take the opportunity to walk or drive past the yards who've put out pine straw before or have a heavy layer of it from their trees they ought to rake up. I still haven't offered to rake anyone's yard for them but I did gather all the pine straw off the sidewalk for the (newly widowed) neighbor across the street.

I have gotten so much pine straw I no longer really need it but whenever I find some I just cover up more lawn (to kill off the grass) in the front yard. In the back yard I have grass clippings plus my dog's poop and all my shredded paper and junk mail in a special pile I'll only use on non edibles, and I am a little concerned about lawn chemicals in that which might kill my plants. Hope several months composting will make it safe. The rest are leaves, shredded leaves/grass/pine straw mixes, and out and out garden refuse- grab out the plants I want to add like someone's thinned iris or canna lilies or mums. Just now in addition to the pickup truck I carry a trug in the car in case I see curbside Hallowe'en pumpkins when we're out in the car. Don't have room to get ALL of them since the amount of pumpkin vines that got me the year after at the old place would entirely cover this new yard. Sadly have only used my trailer once here for 6 yards of wood chips, before I switched to pine straw (no pure leaf mulch up front to avoid frightening the neighbors and having most of it blow into the street). I figure also filling the trailer with bagged leaves etc. would frighten DH as well as the neighbors; I might end up selling the trailer. Don't even have a drive thru gate to the back yard and figure what I can't unload from the truck quick enough I must not really need. 

I am a little bored here- grandma duty is a lot less than the original 30 hours a week and finished painting the fence and unpacking- so every morning without something else tying me up I keep deciding another layer of leaves on top of the current piles won't hurt so go on out and tour the neighborhood. (Or spend the morning emptying the truck from the day before.) I am also trying to water the piles since we haven't had much rain and I do actually want some compost in the next year or so. I doubt I will ever be so bored that I will turn the compost although I actually did once for the dog waste pile when I decided it was too close to the fence.


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## Danaus29

@Jenn, you're lucky to be able to get so many leaves. The cities here have a vaccuum so nobody bags their leaves anymore.

The neighbors blew all their leaves into the creek before I could get them mowed up for my garden. ☹ I did manage to gather up the pine needles and Magnolia leaves from my other property before the wind blew everything away. Now I just have to find time to work them into the garden.


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## Jenn

Danaus29 said:


> @Jenn, you're lucky to be able to get so many leaves. The cities here have a vaccuum so nobody bags their leaves anymore.


They had started the vacuum in my old town and often I had to pass by the good but loose stuff until I found bags again. (Though once I pitchforked a mound of pine straw into my trailer.) My main problem is, being a light weight female with a dodgy neck and two (stomach) hernia repairs already, many of my neighbors are stronger than me... sure wish they'd all buy smaller garbage bags for their yard work. It's a stroke of luck when some strong helpful homeowner (or yard man working nearby) has sympathy and loads for me, but once when a young woman urged me to take all the bags up her driveway (she helped) I had to go home and lie down for a while.

Here they actually had a city mulching program but they CLOSED IT a few years ago- money saving on the part of the mayor at the time. Maybe I should try to get it started again...


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## Jenn

Reading this from the way back machine (I was busy those years at other things)


Forerunner said:


> I always knew that my life's challenge was to keep up with and honor her goodness with my own sacrifice and servanthood.
> But, still I could not see.
> Very few men do.
> 
> She passed away, like a thunderbolt from the bluest, most peaceful sky, completely without warning, one early February mid-day.
> 
> That night following, my appreciation for her, and for her passions, was complete.
> 
> The following years have served only to deepen, broaden and sharpen that appreciation.
> I see clearly every selfish moment in which I failed her.
> I see clearly every incident in which I put my own version of priority above hers.
> I see every moment that could have, and should have, been spent with her.....
> easing her burdens... honoring her with my strength, attention and motivation.
> I see clearly what is all but impossible to share with other men who have not opened their eyes.
> I speak now, a very different language......one of pain, of understanding, of humility.
> Deep, wise, and rare is the man who can hear my voice, who can look at his wife the way I learned to, simply by my inadequate ramblings.
> If I could take the pain of loss for every man, that he need never be separated from "her".....if I could instill the appreciation in every man without his having to endure what I have endured..... I would do it, cost me what it may.


This leads me to post this: *“Wheresoever she was, there was Eden.” *― Mark Twain, The Diaries of Adam and Eve


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## Jenn

But on the flip side? Not really, but with all Forerunner's romantic talk about his compost heaps, and my long obsession with it and self identification with this old Scots expression,

'He'd _marry a midden_ for its _muck_' 

OK, off to drive around to see what the neighbors have left out for me before the grabber trucks come by (how the city workers retrieve the bags of waste and other loose curbside junk without leaving their truck).


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## Pony

When we lived in the 'burbs, we used to collect all the curbside leaf bags before the pick up came through.

Most of the time, it was great. Occasionally, folks would put things in the bags that were not supposed to be in there. We learned to open each bag carefully, and empty it into a wheelbarrow.


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## Jenn

@Pony I have a secret fantasy (nightmare? Naw, aside from fear for my life from the criminal it wouldn't gross me out too much- I'm a medic) that someday I will find body parts (human) in a curbside bag. Think there's a mystery novel set in the DC area about that occurring (and discovered by someone like us), and Lords know no smart murderer would do that (at least not in front of their own home). And if they'd put it out with the leaves, why not compost it? As I tell DH, as soon as they are certain he didn't murder me, he should Fargo me and put me on the roses. (And guess if he or I disappear run DNA tests on the new mulch in the yard.)

I also just buried an unlucky rabbit under the pine straw front yard (so MY dog doesn't bring it back to me- neighbors look out for yourselves) yesterday after spotting it on the roadway 30 yards away.


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## Jenn

mudburn said:


> Thankfully, I didn't have to unload it with a shovel.
> 
> mudburn


@mudburn green with envy! Wish I had a 'dump' truck.


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## Pony

Jenn said:


> @Pony I have a secret fantasy (nightmare? Naw, aside from fear for my life from the criminal it wouldn't gross me out too much- I'm a medic) that someday I will find body parts (human) in a curbside bag. Think there's a mystery novel set in the DC area about that occurring (and discovered by someone like us), and Lords know no smart murderer would do that (at least not in front of their own home). And if they'd put it out with the leaves, why not compost it? As I tell DH, as soon as they are certain he didn't murder me, he should Fargo me and put me on the roses. (And guess if he or I disappear run DNA tests on the new mulch in the yard.)
> 
> I also just buried an unlucky rabbit under the pine straw front yard (so MY dog doesn't bring it back to me- neighbors look out for yourselves) yesterday after spotting it on the roadway 30 yards away.


They're running Bones reruns almost 24/7/365 these days, but I don't recall that scenario.

Hurry up and write it quick! You'll be rich in no time!


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## Jenn

Pennsyltucky said:


> comment #216 page 11
> I came across this article about mitigating climate change with organic farming systems today and couldn't help but share. ...[about storing carbon in the ground to reduce carbon dioxide in the atmosphere]
> Leu, Andre. 2009. Ameliorating the effects of climate change with organic systems. Journal of Organic Systems. Vol. 4 (1), 4-7.
> 
> The kicker is that most people never consider the soil as a great reservoir for carbon, but it actually contains 1580 gigatons. More than forests and the atmosphere combined. Just imagine if more folks took up extreme composting and returned waste(d) carbon back to the soil where it belongs. We'd have happy worms and a less bleak future for the grandkids. Where do the benefits of composting cease?


Wonder how much hugelkultur does for this effort. Do any of these compost gurus bury some of their wood unfit for fuel unchipper-shredded? I tried hugelkultur on a few of my raised beds and had no recognizable branches 6 years on, earlier a few of them snagged my spading fork. (I'm only on page 11 of 200 so dunno if all of us are still composting, even, 12 years on.)


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## Danaus29

Some wood rots faster than others. Pine will decompose quickly in my garden but Sycamore seems to hang around for a few years. I haven't tried hugelkulture because most of my dead trees serve me better as firewood.


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## Jenn

Allen W said:


> Forerunner
> thanks for starting this informative and inspiring post. I may not start any giant compost piles but...


I also 12 years on am very grateful to find this post. I have been telling myself I have enough bagged leaves etc. and it might be time to quit. But I can always show DH pics from here if he gets nervous, and I have an excuse to stockpile leaf bags this fall to balance properly the grass cuttings that will resurge again next summer. I have been watering my piles more since reading this and just stuck a gloved hand into the most finished one and was delighted to pull out dark black muck with a few recognizable leaf particles.

Well since I am bored, have a pick up truck and money for gas (and a full tank now anyway), guess I'll drive around and see if any of the bags I passed up (and have the strength to lift into my truck bed!) as 'just unshredded leaves, I'll hunt for better stuff since I have to stop soon' are still out there, and look forward to Monday when I can see how many neighbors spent the weekend bagging compost material for me.

As I often say if I were richer, but most importantly could do my own mechanic work, I'd be a farmer. However not the case I will just use my truck and my back and pitchfork and replace/ repair the pick up truck with outside help whenever that is needed. (And buy new garden tools when these ones give up- I am really upset about the new limit on Craftsman's 'lifetime' guarantee!!!)


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## Jenn

wyld thang said:


> the model in this thread is a few people practicing ongoing hoarding of compost resources from a wide land area. Meanwhile, the land the materials were taken from do not benefit from those composting resources. Stuff is concentrated in a few areas. The question I like to ask with a method (in this case my "issue" is hoarding) is can it be done with everybody doing it. After all, don't y'all want everyone to compost? In the future a lot more everybody will be (forced) to grow their own and heal the land. Ongoing hoarding is unsustainable--it is indeed unworkable on a large scale.


 @Wyldthang I'm only on p 22 of 198 so I dunno how much more this discussion has been hashed out, but here in a big town, fairly green for Alabama, while I can get bags of compost materials from my neighbors: sawdust is not free, all the sawmills sell their wood chips to large companies so to get some I paid $30/cubic yard instead of the $20-$40 I have paid for a full trailer (8-9 cubic yards) in more rural Southern AL, compost from the garden center costs more, and they actually did have a city composting system set up but a mayor ended it to save money a decade or more ago and all the compost was used up 4 years ago. There's a small private composter, maybe a CSA, now that charges and wants I think just kitchen waste not bulk materials. Like recycling we DO value some things- pine straw and wood chips for the middle class gardeners around here- but apparently compost made from all the city gathers is a bridge too far for now. I haven't sought out horse farms or cow farms but from the samples of compost from the garden center I think that's all spoken for. I DID get some kick ass old stuff- sure smelled like not quite finished cow poop compost to me- from a cotton gin. Tested it in a soil block for seed starting and it didn't kill anything so I'm hopeful that's just good rot I smell and not herbicides or pesticides; will go there again if the crops going in it now all prosper. Cost a good bit more again though than at the larger gins in S AL, but so far hasn't grown any of the vicious weeds that stuff gave me.


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## Max Overhead

This thread kills me because it's leaf season, the curbs of the streets are piled high, some of it is even pre-mulched... but there's a million and one more important things to do in the yard at the moment. But I totally get it; there have been seasons when I roamed the streets with the Blazer with pitchfork and flat shovel, doing the city's job for them. You are building topsoil when you practice adding more material than you take out of the ground. You are an earth-builder! Cheese and crackers, this year I'll have to be satisfied with the dozen free ranging birds and the manure they're adding, and the slow-rotting bark mountains from splitting firewood...


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## Jenn

@Max Overhead I invented an excuse to get more- those weeks next summer when I gather grass clippings and wish someone were putting out some leaves to layer with them. Just have to keep DH from spending too much time looking over the yard... Sorry you are too busy to benefit from the bounty; maybe next year.


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## Jenn

At my old place- too far out of town, rural- I signed up for getchipdrop.com and never got a bite. When I moved into a city I called the tree guys on google and asked for woodchips without any interest. So when chipdrop emailed 'time to update your details' I gave the new address plus offered $20 (fee arborist has to pay chipdrop) and photos of site. Supposedly I'll get a delivery in the next week! We'll see, and I almost wonder if chipdrop wants my $20 and is pushing for it, or will take it before any delivery. Unlikely for just $20 but it could be a business model. And I will now review the nightmare videos of people who regret chipdrop so I am ready for DH's wrath if it has any affect on him eg 'you can drive out of the garage as soon as I move another 10 wheelbarrows full hon, do you want to help me?'

I almost hope it is slightly dissatisfactory so I have less regret over paying $30/yard for shredded bark here. (when I got it for $20-$40/ 9 yards at my old place) No actually I hope it's loaded with green leaves and is almost compost pile material all by itself.


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## Max Overhead

Jenn, I'm guessing you have worm bins - that was what got me started on the lust for biomass. There are many books I could recommend to you which hinge on the health of the soil. One author called the system we have in place "The cash nexus" whereby biomass is removed from one place to another, and only cash is exchanged for it, so that the land is deprived by that much. Another book "Farmers of 40 Centuries" showed what occurs where the cash nexus does not prevail. There is another book for an advanced case like myself, which you should not even attempt to read until you're a total lost cause. "Rural Hygeine" by Vivian Poore. 
For a while I looked into wood chippers, in order to make my own mulch, but the fact is that people put it out for free anyway, and if one has the space, the slower composting large bits only add to an ecosystem which makes all the critters happy.


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## Jenn

CesumPec said:


> you are right about the restaurants. i do know of people doing this but they are bringing home stuff from where they work or they are making collections of saved waste foods that will eventually make compost once they run it through their pigs or chix. So the economics of is much improved as both free animal chow and compost





Max Overhead said:


> This thread kills me because it's leaf season, the curbs of the streets are piled high, some of it is even pre-mulched... but there's a million and one more important things to do in the yard at the moment. But I totally get it; there have been seasons when I roamed the streets with the Blazer with pitchfork and flat shovel, doing the city's job for them. You are building topsoil when you practice adding more material than you take out of the ground. You are an earth-builder! Cheese and crackers, this year I'll have to be satisfied with the dozen free ranging birds and the manure they're adding, and the slow-rotting bark mountains from splitting firewood...


25 years and 5 moves ago we had a favorite Chinese restaurant. I'd bring them eggs and they froze in a take out bag left over fried rice for me to- weekly- get and take to my chickens. Probably breaking some now current restaurant code to keep leftovers a week, and for all I know (I didn't care) it was customer plate rather than unneeded pot scrapings.


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## Jenn

Max Overhead said:


> Jenn, I'm guessing you have worm bins - that was what got me started on the lust for biomass. There are many books I could recommend to you which hinge on the health of the soil. One author called the system we have in place "The cash nexus" whereby biomass is removed from one place to another, and only cash is exchanged for it, so that the land is deprived by that much. Another book "Farmers of 40 Centuries" showed what occurs where the cash nexus does not prevail. There is another book for an advanced case like myself, which you should not even attempt to read until you're a total lost cause. "Rural Hygeine" by Vivian Poore.
> For a while I looked into wood chippers, in order to make my own mulch, but the fact is that people put it out for free anyway, and if one has the space, the slower composting large bits only add to an ecosystem which makes all the critters happy.


Thanks for the book recommendations! I need something to do other than bring more bags of leaves into my tiny backyard. I had threatened jokingly that I would cover it 2' deep with leaves and I am rapidly approaching that. Can't kill ALL the grass until the dog dies and I know where I want paver stones- this yard gets soggy after rains. No, no worms inside for me. Always decided I wouldn't adequately care for them and would regret it. Dogs cats kids and husbands holler when they need something; fish and plants, well, I don't have such a good track record with them.


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## Jenn

Forerunner said:


> My pleasure, Rafter B.
> 
> Isn't there a compost pile, somewhere close there in Afghanistan, that you could pee on to tide yourself over a bit ?
> I hate to see you pining away, so..... :huh:


When DH was deployed to SWA I sent him pumpkin and sunflower seeds. He had them growing outside his quarters where he could conveniently empty those water bottles full of overnight urine collection, plus food scraps the camp dogs wouldn't root through and some water when he could spare it. No pumpkins but vine and sunflowers. Otherwise he has never involved himself in my outdoor activities unless I use my rarely deployed 'she who must be obeyed' voice, and that's usually for manhandling a large farm animal or lawn/ pool care.


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## Max Overhead

Jenn, I keep them outside in 50 gallon rubbermaids with holes drilled for drainage and airflow. They (earthworms) are the type that thrive on "benign neglect" meaning the only ones who screw up caring for them are the ones that dote on them, end up overfeeding and turn the whole bin environment acid. It's a neat project in any case, especially if you have children. Start your bin with alternating layers of leaves, grass mulch, some sprinklings of dirt, a little crushed limestone, shredded cardboard, etc, then wet it all down, and lay either a piece of wetted cardboard or burlap over the top. Then, on rainy days, lift up pieces of bark and rocks for worms with which to innoculate your bin. You can speed up this process by laying cardboard in shady spots in the yard, next to trees and so on, where worms will gravitate. It was Darwin's favorite animal, and that is the nicest thing I can say about that man


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