# Tariffs on imported solar panels



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"The U.S. will impose duties of as much as 30 percent on solar equipment made abroad, a move that threatens to handicap a $28 billion industry that relies on parts made abroad for 80 percent of its supply. Just the mere threat of tariffs has shaken solar developers in recent months, with some hoarding panels and others stalling projects in anticipation of higher costs. The Solar Energy Industries Association has projected tens of thousands of job losses in a sector that employed 260,000."

This is truly terrible for renewable energy. 

http://time.com/5113472/donald-trump-solar-panel-tariff/


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Items such as this or tires for example puzzle me. Would be nice if the news put out some information on how a item such as solar panels can be made and shipped across the world and sold for 30% less. Are they lower quality? Sold at little profit to enable the manufacture or country of origin to gain control of the market by putting others out of business? Contain items or materials that the country of origin control and set price on, selling cheaper to local business than overseas ? Is the USA company just pricing to high for profits ?
Cost of labor affects prices of items no doubt. But from what I have read cost of labor does not affect prices that much usually.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

With very cheap labor, $45 per month vs $45 per hour, few if any environmental regs, yes, foreign country's can easily undercut manufacturing costs.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hey...i am not sure what you complain...If you are a republican you hate renewals and you want black sky from coal and poisoned dead water from uncontrolled by profitable industries with extreme low payed slaves (because the the money trickles down and everyone get wealthy...)
This Government right now is not about US people...it is about making Money for his rich friends and stopping innovation as long as possible. BUT...the only result will be, that the rest of the world will look at the YUAN, will be self sufficient and way ahead technology wise and the US will be the back light of the future


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Solar panels, from the crystal manufacturing to sheet assembly is ALL done by machines, no human hands involved. Well the US takes a hit internationally on this too because it will NOT help production or export of US Made components at all, quite the opposite will occur in fact, it has already started when you look at who is winning all the big mega tenders being issued worldwide. 

Nevermind that the two solar panel companies that asked the U.S. International Trade Commission for tariffs on cheaper foreign-made panels are actually owned by foreign companies. Suniva is majority owned by a Hong Kong company (that opposes tariffs), while SolarWorld is a subsidiary of a German conglomerate. Suniva declared bankruptcy last year; SolarWorld’s parent has said it is technically insolvent.

Ironically, this "Self Hobbling" of the US Industry by Trump has given the non-US manufacturers a huge lead in worldwide... and that's not just Chinese Companies but India, Germany and everyone else that makes panels & related tech. 

Proof that Emotionally Unstable people can be so easily manipulated into self harm on themselves and their Nation.... There is tremendous laughter in many board rooms elsewhere today.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Redlands Okie said:


> Items such as this or tires for example puzzle me. Would be nice if the news put out some information on how a item such as solar panels can be made and shipped across the world and sold for 30% less. Are they lower quality? Sold at little profit to enable the manufacture or country of origin to gain control of the market by putting others out of business? Contain items or materials that the country of origin control and set price on, selling cheaper to local business than overseas ? Is the USA company just pricing to high for profits ?
> Cost of labor affects prices of items no doubt. But from what I have read cost of labor does not affect prices that much usually.


Its actually quite simple,
Their government subsidized research ,manufacturing and foreign sales. That put china in the lead in solar cell tech and helps keep them there.
Now US manufacturers are whining.

In addition to all the reasons its cheaper to manufacture there.
Shipping really isn't a big deal, it to is subsidized and you can get a LOT of cells in a container.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> Would be nice if the news put out some information on how a item such as solar panels can be made and shipped across the world and sold for 30% less.


Cheap labor and lack of regulations on the businesses are the biggest factors.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Meinecke said:


> Hey...i am not sure what you complain...If you are a republican you hate renewals and you want black sky from coal and poisoned dead water from uncontrolled by profitable industries with extreme low payed slaves (because the the money trickles down and everyone get wealthy...)
> This Government right now is not about US people...it is about making Money for his rich friends and stopping innovation as long as possible. BUT...the only result will be, that the rest of the world will look at the YUAN, will be self sufficient and way ahead technology wise and the US will be the back light of the future


throw the koolaid away . Its not good for you


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

M5farm said:


> throw the koolaid away . Its not good for you


 You got that right. SO MANY should Quit watching CNN. Laughable how they brainwash the uninformed. LOL


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bringing jobs back to America!

The tariffs will result in more solar panels being manufactured in US. China was dumping solar panels, which is why the administration placed a tariff on them.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If we can get China to sell us solar cells for less than it costs to make them isn't that a good thing?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> If we can get China to sell us solar cells for less than it costs to make them isn't that a good thing?


Its good for the Chinese, American workers? Not so much.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Yeah, never mind about cleaning up our environment, improving air quality, gaining freedom & independence from Big Power Co if you generate, store & use your own power. Ignore the 100,000 + jobs being risked in the US on this folly and what the knock on effect this has on US Exports (dropping BTW) for all the large global projects... That won't create jobs either.

BTW It is REALLY WONDERFUL to have electricity, run my stuff and do my things and NOT SEE A POWER BILL for doing so. They can raise the rates to 0.30cents a kWh and no matter, NOT ON GRID... The grid can fail, poles can fall, generation stations could shutdown, people can be in the dark, cold OR heat, their frozen food thawing but NOT when you have your own power source and storage... THAT is Independence & Freedom people and so many are missing that wee detail.

What would YOU do with the money every month if you did not have a Power Bill to pay ?
Could you take an extra holiday or two ? Build a nicer shack to hang your hat in ? Ohh the possibilities !

The Solar Racking, Control Systems, Wiring, Tracking Systems, Installation & Maintenance... that is where the jobs are, there is very minimal "human work" involved in actual panel manufacture, it's all automated robotic, high tech clean room facilities, no people till the panels come out the end of the production line.

As for subsidies, Fossil Fuels OIL/GAS in the US get close to $75 Billion a year in subsidies & tax breaks, globally, almost $1 Trillion a year AND Oil/Gas co make massive profits to boot... So before complaining about subsidies, oil & gas are mature & profitable and have been for decades upon decades, so WHY are they still getting perks ? BETTER TO SUBSIDISE CLEANLINESS THAN FILTH + Gain Independence & Freedom at the same time.

REF: (one of many) *Fossil Fuel Subsidies: Overview* http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm pretty sure you could use solar panels that were made in the U.S. And still have those benefits. Better for the environment too. I'm on a permanent vacation and quite content with the shack I built.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

there is a balance to everything. And all sources of energy should be used. IIRC the solar industry was subsidized. That's where I draw the line I don't like welfare in any shape form or fashion. If a person want solar they can still do it But do it on your dime not with TAx money .


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> If we can get China to sell us solar cells for less than it costs to make them isn't that a good thing?


Not if your a US company that makes solar cells.

WWW


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

So far I have not seen anything that makes solar cells a sure bet, nor have I seen anything that makes them cost-effective.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Not if your a US company that makes solar cells.
> 
> WWW


Are there any? LOL and of course no one likes to compete in business.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

M5farm said:


> IIRC the solar industry was subsidized. That's where I draw the line I don't like welfare in any shape form or fashion. If a person want solar they can still do it But do it on your dime not with TAx money .


But your OK with up to 75 Billion in US Gov't subsidies to Oil & Gas + more for coal... or the 1 Trillion Globally every year that Oil & Gas get in subsidies & tax breaks... Interesting.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The tariff will hurt American workers. There is very little manufacturing here. The installation companies are going to be hurt.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Steve_S said:


> But your OK with up to 75 Billion in US Gov't subsidies to Oil & Gas + more for coal... or the 1 Trillion Globally every year that Oil & Gas get in subsidies & tax breaks... Interesting.


I would like to see all subsidies stopped and get on an even playing field then we could see what was most beneficial and economical. I also include farm subsidy as welfare .


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> The tariff will hurt American workers. There is very little manufacturing here. The installation companies are going to be hurt.


The theory is to increase manufacturing here.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The theory is to increase manufacturing here.


 I am perfectly aware of that. The problem is they will still hurt the installers because pricing at this time is critical to winning new customers. Bringing on more manufacturing here will not help the pricing. What is the point of more manufacturing if people won't buy them at that price in the first place?


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

painterswife said:


> I am perfectly aware of that. The problem is they will still hurt the installers because pricing at this time is critical to winning new customers. Bringing on more manufacturing here will not help the pricing. What is the point of more manufacturing if people won't buy them at that price in the first place?


That's how the free market works , If its unsustainable it should fail . But that's just my opinion , We could have a mandate buy .gov that makes it a requirement that every home has one or pay a fine. Im sure that would make it sustainable.


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

painterswife said:


> I am perfectly aware of that. The problem is they will still hurt the installers because pricing at this time is critical to winning new customers. Bringing on more manufacturing here will not help the pricing. What is the point of more manufacturing if people won't buy them at that price in the first place?


Based on the comments in alternate energy forums I have read over the years, when it comes to new customers 'getting into' solar, they have no idea of the cost involved to achieve their energy needs. If the installer is quoting a panel price of $290 instead on $225 and selling them a $2500 inverter charger, $4000 in batteries plus cables, etc. . . I don't think it is going to make a huge difference to the new customer.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

painterswife said:


> The tariff will hurt American workers. There is very little manufacturing here. The installation companies are going to be hurt.


How? The tariff affects all users across the board.


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## OLH (Sep 13, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> Bringing jobs back to America!
> 
> The tariffs will result in more solar panels being manufactured in US. China was dumping solar panels, which is why the administration placed a tariff on them.


There is 1 company that I know of making solar panels here in the U S but I'm sure the materials are coming from out of the country


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

coolrunnin said:


> How? The tariff affects all users across the board.


It is pretty simple. When the price goes up less people can afford something.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

https://www.treehugger.com/economics/us-imposes-30-percent-duty-chinese-solar-panels.html


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Meinecke said:


> https://www.treehugger.com/economics/us-imposes-30-percent-duty-chinese-solar-panels.html


From the link: "This decision will cause roughly 23,000 American jobs to be lost this year, including many in manufacturing, and will cancel of billions of dollars in investments in the U.S. economy."


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> From the link: "This decision will cause roughly 23,000 American jobs to be lost this year, including many in manufacturing, and will cancel of billions of dollars in investments in the U.S. economy."


That may or may not be true. Time will tell.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

painterswife said:


> It is pretty simple. When the price goes up less people can afford something.


It's a little early to surmise much.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tobster said:


> That may or may not be true. Time will tell.


Are you doubting the figures, or do you think adding a 30% tariff will grow the solar industry?


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

painterswife said:


> The tariff will hurt American workers. There is very little manufacturing here. The installation companies are going to be hurt.


That is why we need to start manufacturing the Panels here.

This is why we need to support our President.

big rockpile


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

painterswife said:


> I am perfectly aware of that. The problem is they will still hurt the installers because pricing at this time is critical to winning new customers. Bringing on more manufacturing here will not help the pricing. What is the point of more manufacturing if people won't buy them at that price in the first place?


That is what I was telling our Senator. If we are making good wages here we will be willing to pay more for quality product over China made junk.

United States first!

big rockpile


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

coolrunnin said:


> It's a little early to surmise much.


 Sure it is and once again Doom and Gloom all done by the Fake news Inc.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

If you want a level playing field - get rid of all subsidies and see how things fall out rather than take a "the sky is falling approach". It took the US many many years to get to the point it's at, it'll take a while to get to a new level playing field.

I'm for a flat tax....


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you doubting the figures, or do you think adding a 30% tariff will grow the solar industry?


I doubt the figure of 23,000 jobs being lost. On the question of solar industry growth in general, a price increase in one component of a system will not have much affect on the industry. Do all American made panels cost 30% more than those made in China? Does everyone look to buy Chinese panels? Consumers who go the solar route with an understanding of the huge price tag involved along with the cost of replacing batteries as they age and die are not going to step away because they have their heart set on a Chinese panel and it will cost them an extra $75.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> From the link: "This decision will cause roughly 23,000 American jobs to be lost this year, including many in manufacturing, and will cancel of billions of dollars in investments in the U.S. economy."


Many things look bad on the short term actually pay off in the long run. While this may slow down solar for 1 year if this brings manufacturing back to the US it would increase way more than was lost. Only time will tell.

WWW


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

New Data Shows Solar Energy Creates More Jobs in America Than Any Other Industry 
https://futurism.com/new-data-shows-solar-energy-creates-more-jobs-america-other-industry/


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The US should not be more worried about the installation jobs then tarrifs on panels. That is where the money is to be made. Installation and maintenance is where the jobs are at. Manufacturing panels is more automated all the time. Factories can't be added to in small increments and be cost effective. They chance over shooting size efficiency and losing money. That is why the Chinese and south east Asia are so competitive in pricing. They already have large factories that need to churn out product to remain profitable.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

"Up to certain levels, imports of solar cells will be exempt from the tariff, while the first 1.2 million imported large washing machines will get a lower tariff, peaking at 20 percent." cth​


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

At the very end...it could be just another Nail coffin on the global dominance of Dollar...
Everyone starts divesting from the Dollar to the Yuan, Oil gets payed with Yuan in some countries now, and the biggest stock holder of the US is by far China...so we are pretty much hostiles of our dept now...when they want, they just sell a bunch of dollars from their HUGE pile to harm the Dollar/the US economy...
And due to pretty much nothing we have to export to the World(besides military), we would lose a currency/economy war pretty bad...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Meinecke said:


> At the very end...it could be just another Nail coffin on the global dominance of Dollar...
> Everyone starts divesting from the Dollar to the Yuan, Oil gets payed with Yuan in some countries now, and the biggest stock holder of the US is by far China...so we are pretty much hostiles of our dept now...when they want, they just sell a bunch of dollars from their HUGE pile to harm the Dollar/the US economy...
> And due to pretty much nothing we have to export to the World(besides military), we would lose a currency/economy war pretty bad...


I think Trump has an ace to play. Apple is going to pay about $38 billion in taxes on repatriated money. Now add up all the billions that will come back to US and be taxed and we are talking about a substantial amount. Add to that the additional taxes from a booming economy and we might be talking a trillion dollars of additional revenue.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

All I know is what I know.
Greenville MI lost their major employer when Electrolux shut down the refrigerator factory and moved to Mexico. A company had developed thin film solar sheets and held patents to that technology. They were based in Auburn Hills, MI, Solar Ovantics. They were looking for a place to expand production. They planned four big factories. Greenville workers signed up for trade school classes designed for this factory. The city and state offered cheap land and reduced taxes. The first building went up. Then, China stole the technology and flooded the market with their products for less than cost of production in US. About the same time, several European countries dropped the huge government subsidies that made solar feasible. 
And you think Russia posting Hillary's emails are harmful to this country?
A tariff levels the playing field and without the burden of shipping costs, US can compete against 3rd world wages and 3rd world lack of environmental concerns


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Meinecke said:


> Hey...i am not sure what you complain...If you are a republican you hate renewals and you want black sky from coal and poisoned dead water from uncontrolled by profitable industries with extreme low payed slaves (because the the money trickles down and everyone get wealthy...)
> This Government right now is not about US people...it is about making Money for his rich friends and stopping innovation as long as possible. BUT...the only result will be, that the rest of the world will look at the YUAN, will be self sufficient and way ahead technology wise and the US will be the back light of the future


That's the biggest steaming pile of.............that I've seen in awhile....


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

A lot of stupid statements in this thread so I thought I would inject my own opinion.

As some of you may know, I install my own solar system last year.. (see picture attached)

I did all the engineering myself, all the installation myself, and all the financial math myself, and had all of this done by mid 2015 or so and was waiting for the right time to pull the trigger. As of early 2017, the cost of the equipment finally made solar a financially sound investment, meaning that the cost incurred would return itself within a reasonable amount of time. Yes, I looked at my solar as an investment, not some tree that needed a hug.

I purchased my equipment, none of it was cheap Chinese stuff but instead was German and American, and the price I paid was the lowest price I've seen since I purchased the equipment. If this was a company stock, my decision on when to purchase would have been a home run because I bought my stuff at the lowest price I've seen since. 

Sometime around mid 2017, I started hearing a lot of talk about possible solar tariffs, as the chatter started to increase, so did the prices of solar panels. Importers started buying large quantities of panels and hording them in the same cargo containers they shipped in. Since then, prices have done nothing but climb steadily. 

As of today, if I didn't have a solar system installed already, I would continue waiting because prices are just too high at this point. They've already gone up 15% since last year and my supplier, as well as others I talk to, says they're going to keep climbing. 

One of the side effects of these import tariffs is going to be a lot of installers losing their jobs, a lot of the people who manufacture the ancillary equipment (panel mounting support structures, wiring components, inverters, etc) also losing their jobs.

What Trump has done, is very much inline with what we all knew Trump would do, and that is to cater to the rich at the expense of the little guy. 

He is borrowing from Peter to pay Paul and the effects of which will probably not be seen for several years... at which point, the pissed off public will put a democrat back in office and the republicans will blame the democrats for the failing economy even though its due to the Trump policies several years beforehand. 

While I'm not certain of this, I think what he should have done is to extend the 30% tax credits for the solar panels, guarantee they'll be in place for at least his term in the big seat, and put in place qualifiers for those credits that they require the taxpayer claiming them to use a certain percentage of American components.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> Bringing jobs back to America!
> 
> The tariffs will result in more solar panels being manufactured in US. China was dumping solar panels, which is why the administration placed a tariff on them.


Exactly....but the left can't see that because they're blinded by their hate for Trump


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Murby said:


> One of the side effects of these import tariffs is going to be a lot of installers losing their jobs, a lot of the people who manufacture the ancillary equipment (panel mounting support structures, wiring components, inverters, etc) also losing their jobs.


I drive around a lot. Seldom see solar panels. Except those the utility put up to satisfy a government requirement. I see far more wind turbines. So, if a tariff prices people out of Chinese solar panels and if prices never get near what you were able to pay, guys that only install solar panels will need to get back to electrical or construction they were doing a couple years back, before solar. According to you, solar is already over priced for the return? Tariff won't change that.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

haypoint said:


> I drive around a lot. Seldom see solar panels. Except those the utility put up to satisfy a government requirement. I see far more wind turbines. So, if a tariff prices people out of Chinese solar panels and if prices never get near what you were able to pay, guys that only install solar panels will need to get back to electrical or construction they were doing a couple years back, before solar. According to you, solar is already over priced for the return? Tariff won't change that.


No, Solar had just come down to the right price for the return... it had just entered the golden range in the last quarter of 2016. 

The tariff will absolutely raise prices and slow installations. 

One of the reasons you don't see solar panels when driving around is because ground mount systems are always in backyards and, when the choice is available, homeowners usually mount them out of sight from the street view. Sometimes, due to north/south considerations, that not always possible, but when it is, most home owners mount them out of sight.

Also, its not like solar is on every home in America.. relatively speaking, very few people have them.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Elon Musk will make solar obsolete in a decade.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Elon Musk will make solar obsolete in a decade.


Or someone like him anyway.


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

Murby said:


> A lot of stupid statements in this thread so I thought I would inject my own opinion.
> 
> As some of you may know, I install my own solar system last year.. (see picture attached)
> 
> ...


Installed 15+ kw in 2011/2012 and have since recouped my initial investment. Was able to take advantage of tax credits which made the decision to take the plunge much easier. The equipment prices did go down each year since my install, but am glad that we installed when we did. One thing that I specified to the supplier was that all equipment was to be American made if available. Took some time off from my job - less than a week - and installed everything myself. Submitted necessary certifications and site plans to local utility, received initial approval and then after completion, was inspected and commissioned by the utility. We have net metering here and we have accumulated in excess of 9000 kw in surplus to draw from during overcast days. I agree that extending or expanding the credits would have helped expand the domestic industry and the associated jobs. So far, we have been very satisfied with our system.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

A long time ago, US sheep producers couldn't afford to keep sheep because Third world countries could market wool so much cheaper. There was a wool tariff placed on imported wool. The money collected from the tariff was paid out as a wool subsidy to sheep farmers, based on wool marketed.
How would you feel if there were a tariff placed on imported solar panels and that money used to restore solar panel subsidies like were in place a few years ago? Governments around the world have been subsidizing solar for years.


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

haypoint said:


> A long time ago, US sheep producers couldn't afford to keep sheep because Third world countries could market wool so much cheaper. There was a wool tariff placed on imported wool. The money collected from the tariff was paid out as a wool subsidy to sheep farmers, based on wool marketed.
> How would you feel if there were a tariff placed on imported solar panels and that money used to restore solar panel subsidies like were in place a few years ago? Governments around the world have been subsidizing solar for years.


One thing that concerns me about subsidies is how to combat the urge for some manufacturers to inflate their prices to gobble up most of the subsidy. A few years ago, was working on a project that had a lot of subcontractors on it and the general contractor representative plainly stated that his intent was for everyone on his project to make money - just not too much money. I do not have a problem with a company making a fair profit, the only problem is the definition of "fair profit" varies wildly depending on who is being asked. Some companies need to have 50% o & p, while others are ok with their actual costs + 8 - 12%. Of course, the question becomes what constitutes "actual costs". The owners new fishing boat and 4 wheel drive diesel truck? The atv's for his children and grandchildren, the 2 week trips to Vegas? New sports car for his wife? Company credit cards for family members expenses? Vacation home in the mountains? Have seen all these things justified as business expenses while telling employees the company just not making enough money to give any raises. Ultimately caused most employees to seek employment elsewhere and the golden goose pretty much died. Have witnessed this several times in my career.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

LAFarm said:


> One thing that concerns me about subsidies is how to combat the urge for some manufacturers to inflate their prices to gobble up most of the subsidy. A few years ago, was working on a project that had a lot of subcontractors on it and the general contractor representative plainly stated that his intent was for everyone on his project to make money - just not too much money. I do not have a problem with a company making a fair profit, the only problem is the definition of "fair profit" varies wildly depending on who is being asked. Some companies need to have 50% o & p, while others are ok with their actual costs + 8 - 12%. Of course, the question becomes what constitutes "actual costs". The owners new fishing boat and 4 wheel drive diesel truck? The atv's for his children and grandchildren, the 2 week trips to Vegas? New sports car for his wife? Company credit cards for family members expenses? Vacation home in the mountains? Have seen all these things justified as business expenses while telling employees the company just not making enough money to give any raises. Ultimately caused most employees to seek employment elsewhere and the golden goose pretty much died. Have witnessed this several times in my career.


If it is true what others have said, that higher priced solar panels will kill the industry and installers will lose their jobs, due to tariffs, wouldn't companies jacking prices have the same effect? To look at it another way, wouldn't companies currently importing Chinese panel also be tempted to jack up retail prices?
I think you can only control so much. Put a 50 cent a watt tariff and pay a 50 cent a watt subsidy to homeowners. If that causes a rush, prices may go up. Prices go up and demand levels off. Simple supply and demand. The market determines how much is too much.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Are there any? LOL and of course no one likes to compete in business.


True, and that applies to workers as well as bosses. Else we wouldn't hear all the whining about our neighbors from the south taking all the jobs by working for less than minimum wage.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

LAFarm said:


> Installed 15+ kw in 2011/2012 and have since recouped my initial investment. Was able to take advantage of tax credits which made the decision to take the plunge much easier. The equipment prices did go down each year since my install, but am glad that we installed when we did. One thing that I specified to the supplier was that all equipment was to be American made if available. Took some time off from my job - less than a week - and installed everything myself. Submitted necessary certifications and site plans to local utility, received initial approval and then after completion, was inspected and commissioned by the utility. We have net metering here and we have accumulated in excess of 9000 kw in surplus to draw from during overcast days. I agree that extending or expanding the credits would have helped expand the domestic industry and the associated jobs. So far, we have been very satisfied with our system.


This post smells like California.... Am I right? 

We installed our 8kw system and had it officially net metering on Aug 23rd 2017. I'm in Michigan and we've been having a really gloomy winter. I went in with 800KW banked and I'm down to about 120KW as of yesterday when I checked the meter. 

Up here in Michigan, that darn sun goes so far down to the horizon, shadows are 30% longer than the objects casting them. My weekly production (winter) isn't even 1/4 of what my summer production is.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It's my understanding that optimum gain with solar power requires sunshine. I think I'd rather spend my money on lunar power.


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

Murby said:


> This post smells like California.... Am I right?
> 
> We installed our 8kw system and had it officially net metering on Aug 23rd 2017. I'm in Michigan and we've been having a really gloomy winter. I went in with 800KW banked and I'm down to about 120KW as of yesterday when I checked the meter.
> 
> Up here in Michigan, that darn sun goes so far down to the horizon, shadows are 30% longer than the objects casting them. My weekly production (winter) isn't even 1/4 of what my summer production is.


Not California. Believe it or not, Louisiana. Used Solar Pathfinder modeling to select my site and the projected kw has been pretty accurate for the past 5 years. Try to be energy conscience where feasible, increased attic insulation, fluorescent and led lighting, geothermal hvac, etc. in a home built in late 60's/early 70's. Some upgrades would just not be cost effective. Think you will be very satisfied with your solar addition, especially after being able to bank some excess during the summer.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I am perfectly aware of that. The problem is they will still hurt the installers because pricing at this time is critical to winning new customers. Bringing on more manufacturing here will not help the pricing. What is the point of more manufacturing if people won't buy them at that price in the first place?


Won't all the installers be faced with that? Are you saying solar installations will halt because Chinese subsidized solar is no longer so cheap? You never say what you mean, you just throw out cryptic BS. Why do you bother us?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Meinecke said:


> At the very end...it could be just another Nail coffin on the global dominance of Dollar...
> Everyone starts divesting from the Dollar to the Yuan, Oil gets payed with Yuan in some countries now, and the biggest stock holder of the US is by far China...so we are pretty much hostiles of our dept now...when they want, they just sell a bunch of dollars from their HUGE pile to harm the Dollar/the US economy...
> And due to pretty much nothing we have to export to the World(besides military), we would lose a currency/economy war pretty bad...


The Yuan is a pegged currency.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

A POINT maybe being missed here. If someone is in a position to install Solar Power and generate their own juice, that is independence & freedom from an external source for your energy. You of course pay your costs up front and repay yourself over the years BUT that is a fixed and done cost. Do your power bills stay the same, every month, every year for 20 years ? I have never ever seen such a thing and I doubt anyone else in the world ever has either.

Will 30% on imported panels hurt ? It WILL on the installers and sellers as sales will reduce... that money can add up fast.
Are Chinese panels junk ? NO, they in fact lead in the tech and have done so for years and sell globally and is a matter of pride for them. The Anti-China crap is just that... leave it where it belongs, in the waste bin of "Jap Krap (ala 1970's) and "Korean Krud" "ala 1980's" and so on. 

NOW...
Consider if someone wants to save you money so that you can get free & independent of Big Power Co is that bad for you ?
IF you can generate power at home and have excess that can be sold back to Big Power Co for grid top up, is that also bad for you & your neighbours ? Remember, that also saves more power generation at a power plant.
IF in the process you have power, sell the extra and get reliability so even when the Grid fails your still good to go, is that a bad thing ?
Lastly, with all of the above, the obvious, would not generating your own clean power which helps keep some more pollution out of the air not make you feel better when you look at your kids, grandkids and thinking about their future ?
Being Empowered to take care of yourself, your family and their needs can & does also play into this... the future is uncertain with one exception (costs always go up) and the more certainty you can have for you & yours the better (more stability) you have going forward.

IF your going to let bad feelings, emotionalism and hatred/racism or whatever deny you freedom & independence and make it harder to leave a cleaner corner on this rock for your kids and progeny while meeting their needs... you need to seriously sit down and give it a think... What is BEST for YOU & YOURS and I am not talking about the dude down the road in the next county but can include him too....


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

So, this is what I'm reading: When I use newspaper to start a fire, I always, and only, use the articles that paint my beliefs in a bad light. I save the ones that paint my beliefs in a good light to line the kitchen shelves with. and pictures of people in the news that I don't like are used for toilet paper in the outhouse.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Murby said:


> No, Solar had just come down to the right price for the return... it had just entered the golden range in the last quarter of 2016.
> 
> The tariff will absolutely raise prices and slow installations.
> 
> ...


Why couldn't installers lower their rates to compensate for increased solar panel costs? Or maybe they could figure out how to increase their own productivity.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Why couldn't installers lower their rates to compensate for increased solar panel costs? Or maybe they could figure out how to increase their own productivity.


 So you want one worker ( the installer or sales person) to lower his rate of pay so that a solar panel company can compete in a market they are losing in?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> So you want one worker ( the installer or sales person) to lower his rate of pay so that a solar panel company can compete in a market they are losing in?


Several people have said the tariff will result in installers losing their jobs. I'm pretty sure that, except for self installed systems, the bulk of the cost of a solar installation is not the panels.

So if I had a company that did solar installs, I would try to figure out a way to decrease the installation cost so I could stay in business. This is the type of environment that creates innovation. A good company will not accept the idea that a tariff on panels will put them out of business.

Is there a tariff on the other equipment required for a solar install? No. Has the tax burden been lowered? Yes. Can productivity be improved? Yes. So is the tariff really going to put installers out of business? Of course not.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Seems like there’s two ways to deal with a situation.
Tariffs ,raise the price of the product brought in this country to a price that manufactures here can meet. 
It’s fair because only those using the product will pay the tariff but it will result in loss of jobs due to a higher price point. The key question For the nation is will the reduction in sales result in a net loss of jobs or will the increase in manufacturing more than offset that?
We could of course subsidize the manufacture of solar cells that’s helping keep the US competitive worldwide.
Once again there are two ways to do this,
We could of course simply pay each manufacturer a small sum for each solar cell made here. 
Or we could help finance building the point that manufactures solar cells here.
Of all of these I prefer the last. I think it will help keep us on the leading edge of technology even though it is possible we could wind up with a string of defunct manufacturing plants.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Several people have said the tariff will result in installers losing their jobs. I'm pretty sure that, except for self installed systems, the bulk of the cost of a solar installation is not the panels.
> 
> So if I had a company that did solar installs, I would try to figure out a way to decrease the installation cost so I could stay in business. This is the type of environment that creates innovation. A good company will not accept the idea that a tariff on panels will put them out of business.
> 
> Is there a tariff on the other equipment required for a solar install? No. Has the tax burden been lowered? Yes. Can productivity be improved? Yes. So is the tariff really going to put installers out of business? Of course not.


You are making assumptions. The equipment is in fact the major portion of the cost of a solar system.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

According to NREL solar panels are about 10% to 15% of the cost on a residential system. see chart

https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/201...cale-solar-pv-system-cost-fell-last-year.html

WWW


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Their just saying that the cost of the solar panels are only a fraction of the products and labor that is used in a solar system install. So solar panel prices may be higher but the rest of the system is still the same.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wy_white_wolf said:


> According to NREL solar panels are about 10% to 15% of the cost on a residential system. see chart
> 
> https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/201...cale-solar-pv-system-cost-fell-last-year.html
> 
> WWW


That report shows that modules is the largest cost of residential systems if you don't factor in land, overhead and profit ( soft costs) Homeowners already have the land.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Tariffs never saved a country and its workers from "the long workbench" as we called it at Volkswagen in Germany.
Production will always go where the lowest price is.
And to be honest...I would by my Solar panels by price, not by the Tag "Made in USA"...and when it comes to real project realization and calculations...i dont believe that anyone in the middle or lower middle range of income would do ANY different.
So it does not matter who put the tariffs up and if you like the person or not...it will slow down renewals...and it will prolong domianz of GAS and coal...as he promised...


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Nice liberal spin. Soft costs also include things like building permits, office and shop overhead, etc. They listed land because the chart also cover utility systems.

WWW


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> You are making assumptions. The equipment is in fact the major portion of the cost of a solar system.


I didn't say equipment, I said panels. The tariff is on solar cells. The frames, wiring, charge controllers, inverters, etc are not included in tariff.

The 1st 2.5 gigiwatts of cells are exempt. The tariff starts at 30% the 1st year and goes down 5% a year for the next 3 years, so 30%, 25%, 20%, 15%. The tariff is only for 4 years.

So lets say you were going to buy 10 kw of panels at today's price. Let's say that's about $15k. With a 30% increase, that becomes $19,500. That means it would take an additional 3 years to break even. I can't see that putting thousands or even hundreds of installers out of jobs. 

Companies will figure out a way to stay competitive. Some will be willing to reduce profits for a year or two to stay in business. Others will innovate. New companies will start up that are more efficient. That's what capitalism and entrepreneurial spirit does.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

wy_white_wolf said:


> According to NREL solar panels are about 10% to 15% of the cost on a residential system. see chart
> 
> https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/201...cale-solar-pv-system-cost-fell-last-year.html
> 
> WWW


Thank you. That exactly makes my point. The total cost of an installed system then, should only go up about 3%-4.5% and companies should be able to figure out a way to reduce that even more. For one, they just got a big tax break.

And if interpret that article correctly, the cost of an installed system in 2018 will still be cheaper than a 2016 installed system.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

The panels are cheap


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Thank you. That exactly makes my point. The total cost of an installed system then, should only go up about 3%-4.5% and companies should be able to figure out a way to reduce that even more. For one, they just a big tax break.
> 
> And if interpret that article correctly, the cost of an installed system in 2018 will still be cheaper than a 2016 installed system.


Most projections I've seem put it at 4% for residential and 10% for utility grade systems. I don't see that as a big setback.

WWW


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Will 30% on imported panels hurt ? It WILL on the installers and sellers as sales will reduce... that money can add up fast.
> *Are Chinese panels junk ? NO, they in fact lead in the tech and have done so for years and sell globally and is a matter of pride for them.* The Anti-China crap is just that... leave it where it belongs, in the waste bin of "Jap Krap (ala 1970's) and "Korean Krud" "ala 1980's" and so on.


Umm.. take it from someone with experience, they are lower quality than all other manufacturers. 

Here's a true story, you're welcome to google it:
I bought SolarWorld panels that are made in either Germany or the USA. A few months later, I learned that SolarWorld has a massive recall on some of their panels because the MC4 connectors were cracking with age, allowing moisture in, and could shock anyone grabbing them. 
Looking up the serial number of my specific panels, I learned mine were made long after the affected units so the recall didn't apply to me.

The problem with the affected panels? The MC4 connectors had impurities in the materials used to make them, they were Made In China. 

The one stupid piece they put on a high quality solar panel because its mathematically insignificant that it could cause a problem and guess what? IT CAUSED A PROBLEM. 

If you want to purchase a $100 solar battery trickle charger for your lawn mower battery, have at it.. if you lose your $100 investment in a year or two its not a big deal... 

But unless you don't mind losing your $10K to $20K investment in your solar array, stay the hell away from anything that says "Made In China" on it.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Tariffs never saved a country and its workers from "the long workbench" as we called it at Volkswagen in Germany.
> Production will always go where the lowest price is.
> *And to be honest...I would by my Solar panels by price, not by the Tag "Made in USA"...and when it comes to real project realization and calculations...i dont believe that anyone in the middle or lower middle range of income would do ANY different.*
> So it does not matter who put the tariffs up and if you like the person or not...it will slow down renewals...and it will prolong domianz of GAS and coal...as he promised...


Which is part of the reason some people are always stuck in the middle and lower range of income. Purchasing a product based solely upon its price is a very shallow and materialistic way of thinking and will most often come back and actually cost more in the long run.

Here's a couple of real world examples I have experience with: 
1) Shoes: Not being an expert in shoes, (who is right?), I always thought a shoe is a shoe. By today's technology, how could you screw up making a pair of shoes or boots right? WRONG. I use to purchase shoes and boots at Walmart (made in China with strange, generic, or no name brands). Inevitably, they would wear out within three to six months and I'd have to purchase another $30 to $50 pair. 
Finally laid down some cash ($180) for some real American shoes and Canadian made boots.... that was 5 years ago and I'm still wearing them. In fact, with the notable exception that they are scuffed up and show signs of being used, they are structurally still brand new. The boots seem to be getting dirtier every year but not wearing out. 
Do some math and you tell me which was a better investment. 

2) Lawn care equipment: Did the same with weed whips, chain saws, hedge clippers, etc. Instead of spending $150 to $200 for the Chinese crap sold at Home Depot or Lowes, I laid out $600 for a professional quality chainsaw that was made in Germany. While I've seen several friends have to purchase new chainsaws at Home Depot over the years, they only seem to last for a couple of years, mine is still going strong. Heck, I haven't even changed a spark plug yet.

I've done the exact same thing with my gas hedge clippers, weed whip, edger, etc. Ya, I have about $2000 invested in lawn care equipment and my neighbor could purchase all the same stuff for around $600 to $700.. but he'll have to replace all his stuff every two or three years at best.. my stuff will probably last for at least two decades or more. 

China's manufacturing policy is all about profit, not quality. Never invest in something because of its price, invest in quality and you'll never go wrong.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

So Murby, your implying that Chinese Companies like Trina, Yingli for example do not honour warranties or replace defective modules ? Did you provide One Single Solitary example where that was the case with evidence or proof ??

Yes, the Jar-Head Klan has spoken for it's leaders indeed... and what did the Navi say to that ? Also remember that in the movie a truth is stated... about how "this is the way it's always been done"... Think on that.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

And my Made in China DeWalt tools have lasted years including their LiIon batteries while the cheaper Black & Decker (owner by same holding company) and made in the same factory didn't last a year. My Husqvarna 576XP Chainsaw works as good today as the day I bought it BUT I care for it, clean & maintain it... so do I expect any troubles ? NO.... 

I'm off-grid and as such have 2 Gennies for backup & heavy gear (compressor & mig etc) use... my 3kw Inverter generator is Designed & Engineered in Canada by King Canada, made in China, 4 years over 700 hours and no issues (running on Synthetic oil) and starts 1st pull everytime in -30c to +35C temps. My Big Genny has easily 600-800 hours on it over 5 yrs, it's a rough & noisy brute - Champion 8kw Made in China unit, also running with Synthetic Oil, never ever a trouble (unless you count one screw falling off from vibes as trouble) and I just changed the spark plug on it... Starts on 1st pull or flick of switch regardless of the temp from damn cold to insanely hot. GUESS WHAT: King 3kw Inverter Genny cost me $900, the Champion 8kw cost me 699 on sale... Would a $3,000 Honda get me any further ? served me better ? BUT I do not abuse my gear, I maintain and care for it, regardless of where it was made, abuse it and it will fail regardless of who made it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Murby said:


> China's manufacturing policy is all about profit, not quality. Never invest in something because of its price, invest in quality and you'll never go wrong.


I share those same experiences. I wear Danner boots, run a Stihl chainsaw, own a Milwaukee
sawsall. I avoid apple juice from concentrate and honey, because unless the label says different, it's Chinese.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Steve_S said:


> So Murby, your implying that Chinese Companies like Trina, Yingli for example do not honour warranties or replace defective modules ? Did you provide One Single Solitary example where that was the case with evidence or proof ??
> 
> Yes, the Jar-Head Klan has spoken for it's leaders indeed... and what did the Navi say to that ? Also remember that in the movie a truth is stated... about how "this is the way it's always been done"... Think on that.


Honoring a warranty for defect is no comparison to not having the defect in the first place.
Ask anyone who does repairs for a living.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Honoring a warranty for defect is no comparison to not having the defect in the first place.
> Ask anyone who does repairs for a living.


 Murby touched on a Warranty recall for the same brand he uses and highlighted that as standing behind the product. Good for that company BUT the implication was on warranties being honoured, wasn't it. 

Can you show any evidence that shows the Chinese Panels are any less quality, or less durable and have a higher defect ratio ? - you know, tangible, credible & verifiable ? I would be interested to see that as I closely follow Solar Industry News and Information and haven't crossed that - everyone everywhere is pretty level on that in general. The business is too fast and reactive, wouldn't be in business long if you were shoddy, too much big competition.

Anyways, this has moved onto downright silly.... If you want to pay more, then pay more, if you want to get off the "plug" and make your own juice, then do it.... You can choose for yourself and do what you want (as long as it's legal, hehehe) that's the best part of living in free nations.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Daughter in ordered a new range said because of the increase in prices caused by the tariffs


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Steve_S said:


> Murby touched on a Warranty recall for the same brand he uses and highlighted that as standing behind the product. Good for that company BUT the implication was on warranties being honoured, wasn't it.
> 
> Can you show any evidence that shows the Chinese Panels are any less quality, or less durable and have a higher defect ratio ? - you know, tangible, credible & verifiable ? I would be interested to see that as I closely follow Solar Industry News and Information and haven't crossed that - everyone everywhere is pretty level on that in general. The business is too fast and reactive, wouldn't be in business long if you were shoddy, too much big competition.
> 
> Anyways, this has moved onto downright silly.... If you want to pay more, then pay more, if you want to get off the "plug" and make your own juice, then do it.... You can choose for yourself and do what you want (as long as it's legal, hehehe) that's the best part of living in free nations.


The only evidence I have is personal experience in manufacturing.
I've reworked a lot of parts from overseas, especially cast metal that didn't have good QC.

And the implication I got from his post wasn't so much a warranty issue, but a quality one.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Forcast said:


> Daughter in ordered a new range said because of the increase in prices caused by the tariffs


I wasn't expecting that.
Not to be mean, but maybe you could tell her the tariff was on washing machines, not ranges.
And on that point, when we bought a new washer/dryer set last year, I had narrowed my choices to Samsung or Kenmore.
I realize that a lot of appliances are foreign made now, even with american brands, but when I researched the reviews on the Samsung models there were a lot of complaints about defects with the added problem of no one to fix them. Everything had to go thru overseas communication and authorization.

The same goes with any foreign part. Sure you might get it cheap or replaced for free but how long do you have to wait on it to be shipped?
Sometimes that's a deal breaker.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Murby touched on a Warranty recall for the same brand he uses and highlighted that as standing behind the product. Good for that company BUT the implication was on warranties being honoured, wasn't it.


It should be noted and observed that the defect wasn't with the actual panel, but with the $2 connector. And to fix that connector is less than 60 seconds of work to snip it off and crimp on a replacement.



> *Can you show any evidence that shows the Chinese Panels are any less quality, or less durable and have a higher defect ratio ? - *you know, tangible, credible & verifiable ? I would be interested to see that as I closely follow Solar Industry News and Information and haven't crossed that - everyone everywhere is pretty level on that in general. The business is too fast and reactive, wouldn't be in business long if you were shoddy, too much big competition.
> 
> Anyways, this has moved onto downright silly.... If you want to pay more, then pay more, if you want to get off the "plug" and make your own juice, then do it.... You can choose for yourself and do what you want (as long as it's legal, hehehe) that's the best part of living in free nations.


Here you go, all one has to do is look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html

To address (I think your statement?) about Trina and Yingli, they are among the better of the Chinese panels.. but they are also right up there in price with a lot of domestic, German and Japanese panels. Personally, if I'm going to pay $1/watt for a solar panel, I'd rather go with a German or Japanese unit over a Chinese panel at the same price.

For the record, I paid $0.61 per watt for my SolarWorld SW panels.

Its not that the Chinese are incapable of building a quality product, its that they're usually more interested in profits and will screw a customer to make a nickle. Now, when they slap a name brand on their product, the quality level rises a bit, and when they slap a name brand on a product that has to compete in the same market as other international brands, (like Trina and Yingli), the quality goes up even further and gets more in line with the rest of the modern world's manufacturing.. But then, so does the price. 

Anyone who thinks they're going to save money buying Chinese equipment is fooling themselves.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

5 year old semi review by NYTimes. Solar Panels just like all high tech, that's "forever" and so much (virtually everything) has changed in that tech within that period... You know, there is always some cheapo company out there... that applies not just to Chinese companies, every nation has some that will shaft Joe & Jane Consumer but once known they generally don't last.

BTW: What electronics co hasn't had issues ? Apple, Samsung, GE, LG, and all the others have.. Auto Companies have them too... are you still mad @ Ford for your 72 Pinto exploding ? Or the Takata (Jap) Airbags blew out ? Solar Panels are very persnickety things to make, not something you glue up in your workshop, so.... 

*Back to original programming:*
Brick don't build houses, it's the Brick Layers that use the bricks that build the houses. Bricks, like solar panels, are all made in automated factories, little employment there, mostly just handling... It's the Brick Layers that will be affected and everything related. The installers, Rack Makers, Wiring, Control Systems etc... Adding a Surtax on the "Bricks" will not help the Brick Layers or the other industries that support them. Maybe it's not "huge" but that will prevent some folks from getting solar, it will absolutely affect large projects, commercial installs... Installation Companies pay taxes, their workers pay taxes and buy goods, the supporting industries pay taxes as do their workers who also spend in their communities...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Steve_S said:


> 5 year old semi review by NYTimes. Solar Panels just like all high tech, that's "forever" and so much (virtually everything) has changed in that tech within that period... You know, there is always some cheapo company out there... that applies not just to Chinese companies, every nation has some that will shaft Joe & Jane Consumer but once known they generally don't last.
> 
> BTW: What electronics co hasn't had issues ? Apple, Samsung, GE, LG, and all the others have.. Auto Companies have them too... are you still mad @ Ford for your 72 Pinto exploding ? Or the Takata (Jap) Airbags blew out ? Solar Panels are very persnickety things to make, not something you glue up in your workshop, so....
> 
> ...


Why ask for proof if it's never going to be good enough?
That's why I didn't waste my time putting up links. 30 years of experience is all I need to know about it and that same 30 years will never be enough for you.
So be it.
Was all 30 years in the field of solar?
No.
Many years in electronics?
Yes.
And yeah, for what it's worth I STILL won't own a Ford, lol.
Why?
Because I've *worked* on them, that's why. 
Like I said before if you want to know about something, ask someone who repairs it.
If you don't want to know, carry on...........


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Sorry if it's been posted, but Gore defends Trump on tariff:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/25/al-...not-to-blame-for-tariffs-on-solar-panels.html


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Forcast said:


> Daughter in ordered a new range said because of the increase in prices caused by the tariffs


How is a tariff on solar panels and washing machines going to affect the cost of a range?

WWW


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

haypoint said:


> All I know is what I know.
> Greenville MI lost their major employer when Electrolux shut down the refrigerator factory and moved to Mexico. A company had developed thin film solar sheets and held patents to that technology. They were based in Auburn Hills, MI, Solar Ovantics. They were looking for a place to expand production. They planned four big factories. Greenville workers signed up for trade school classes designed for this factory. The city and state offered cheap land and reduced taxes. The first building went up. Then, China stole the technology and flooded the market with their products for less than cost of production in US. About the same time, several European countries dropped the huge government subsidies that made solar feasible.
> And you think Russia posting Hillary's emails are harmful to this country?
> A tariff levels the playing field and without the burden of shipping costs, US can compete against 3rd world wages and 3rd world lack of environmental concerns


Ok I know what Income has to do with how a person feels and how Local Merchants want to deal with someone making a good income.

Use to be I made more than most in one area. I could go in anywhere and have a person finance just about anything with me. 

Before Jobs left the country my wife was making double Minimum Wage, which I didn't think was enough but it was still enough to be able to have stuff financed. She was working producing Slacks, Bib Overalls and Shoes they all left the country. They did pay for her Schooling. I told her to get into Computers that was where the money was. She went for several things dealing with Computers. She couldn't get hired either because she was too old or get this because she was a woman.

She went to work for Home Health was making pretty good wages per week but she was working 100+ Hours a week, making Minimum Wage, they didn't have to pay over time because she was considered a Glorified Baby Sitter. She got so much for Gas when Gas Prices went up she couldn't afford to continue doing this.

Finally with her Medical and Computer background she is working for the Government. Not making that much but enjoys her work.

Back when NAFTA was signed I went to our State Senator. First thing she says is look how much cheaper we can buy merchandise. I said Senator why not have the people of the state making good wages and buying well made United States merchandise than cheap China made junk? She didn't want to talk anymore like all Liberal Democrats.

In past I thought what would happen if the Government did away with Minimum Wage. Thinking the price of stuff would go down. When Free Trade was signed it brought wages way down but didn't bring the price of merchandise down, it didn't actually prices went up because they figured they could make more off what little they continued to sell. Which kicks most the buying people out because they just do without.

big rockpile


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It's my understanding that optimum gain with solar power requires sunshine. I think I'd rather spend my money on lunar power.


Know some people that have Solar and Wind power but still run Generator during December because there is not enough Sun or Wind on the average.

big rockpile


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I have no doubt that china or many other countries can produce some excellent products. However I think the general consumer buying at walmart or big box store is not going to usually find many of those well made items. The business selling the products want cheap to buy and high profit when sold items. The business and the customers are not likely looking for or expecting well made and long lasting products that will save them money over time . Just a part of the cooperate and consumer world today. I think tariff and trade issues are why many items are made here or could be made here even though owned by foreign companies. The consumers with their lack of expectations vote with their wallet..........


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@Rockpile WHAT does NAFTA have to do with anything China ? ZIP ! Our prices climbed up too, our lumber jumped as well... Gas here is $1.15 a litre / $4.35 USG what's yours ? 
Blame the RIGHT people for the jobs moving out of USA... 

It wasn't like 200,000 Chinese jumped off a boat, ran up to anyones place of employment and took the jobs back to China, along with all the equipment. It was the US *Companies Board of Directors, CEO's, Stock Holders who decided to go off shore*, lower production costs, kill US jobs and raise prices back home for the same but cheaper to make product with a lower serviceable lifespan.

You could also blame your Government(s) state / fed for just letting it happen so easily and with little effort to retain them... Although, I don't think the Governments had much choice did they...

Interesting... All FT employees here have a max work week of 44 hrs after which, time & a half MUST be paid as OT. PT workers up to 22 hours a week, past 27 considered FT. All Stat Holidays are Time & a Half. THAT IS Std Labour Law... not union stuff and pretty much same across the entire country... although our min wages vary a bit but that's the same everywhere I suppose.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

big rockpile said:


> Know some people that have Solar and Wind power but still run Generator during December because there is not enough Sun or Wind on the average.


 Hence why up here we typically overpanel by 20% to compensate and with the right Charge Controller to handle it your golden. Alternately Trackers make a huge difference but they aren't cheap with, so not everyone has them, nor are they practical everywhere.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Everyone wants more in their paycheck, then complain about higher prices. Don't like tariffs? Buy American made. Pay for those high wages and the added costs of protecting our environment.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Hence why up here we typically overpanel by 20% to compensate and with the right Charge Controller to handle it your golden. Alternately Trackers make a huge difference but they aren't cheap with, so not everyone has them, nor are they practical everywhere.


LOL.. that's what I was thinking... Someone didn't properly design their system for their own application.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

*NAFTA countries*
The three countries of the North American Free Trade Agreement {NAFTA} are: *Canada, Mexico, and the USA. The USA, Canada and Mexico*.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Murby said:


> LOL.. that's what I was thinking... Someone didn't properly design their system for their own application.


It happens in the best of families.... 


Murby said:


> This post smells like California.... Am I right?
> 
> We installed our 8kw system and had it officially net metering on Aug 23rd 2017. I'm in Michigan and we've been having a really gloomy winter. I went in with 800KW banked and I'm down to about 120KW as of yesterday when I checked the meter.
> 
> Up here in Michigan, that darn sun goes so far down to the horizon, shadows are 30% longer than the objects casting them. My weekly production (winter) isn't even 1/4 of what my summer production is.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Steve_S said:


> Hence why up here we typically overpanel by 20% to compensate and with the right Charge Controller to handle it your golden. Alternately Trackers make a huge difference but they aren't cheap with, so not everyone has them, nor are they practical everywhere.


20% over is the minimum to calculate for system losses on an off grid system.

WWW


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Steve_S said:


> @Rockpile
> 
> It wasn't like 200,000 Chinese jumped off a boat, ran up to anyones place of employment and took the jobs back to China, along with all the equipment. It was the US Companies Board of Directors, CEO's, Stock Holders who decided to go off shore, lower production costs, kill US jobs and raise prices back home for the same but cheaper to make product with a lower serviceable lifespan.
> 
> ...



Got to agree


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

painterswife said:


> The tariff will hurt American workers. There is very little manufacturing here. The installation companies are going to be hurt.


Couldn't those unemployed installation folks get jobs in the growing US solar cell manufacturing factories?


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Couldn't those unemployed installation folks get jobs in the growing US solar cell manufacturing factories?


That's the idea - but will it pan out. Will Americans get the jobs or will we import more 'other' workers.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Couldn't those unemployed installation folks get jobs in the growing US solar cell manufacturing factories?


They wouldn't need to if the US panels sell.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Steve_S said:


> @Rockpile WHAT does NAFTA have to do with anything China ? ZIP ! Our prices climbed up too, our lumber jumped as well... Gas here is $1.15 a litre / $4.35 USG what's yours ?
> Blame the RIGHT people for the jobs moving out of USA...
> 
> It wasn't like 200,000 Chinese jumped off a boat, ran up to anyones place of employment and took the jobs back to China, along with all the equipment. It was the US *Companies Board of Directors, CEO's, Stock Holders who decided to go off shore*, lower production costs, kill US jobs and raise prices back home for the same but cheaper to make product with a lower serviceable lifespan.
> ...


So your saying Clinton didn't open the doors to throwing Manufacturing out of the United States and doing his part in destroying this country?

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/10/clinton.pntr/index.html?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

big rockpile


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Couldn't those unemployed installation folks get jobs in the growing US solar cell manufacturing factories?


I can’t see how that would work. If Installation jobs are lost they won’t need to hire anybody at the factory and if they do need to hire anybody at the factory the installers will be busy.

Not to mention that installers are dispersed across the country while the factory or factories would be in just one or two small areas


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@RockPile. Those who Own & Operate the companies make the descissions as to what they will do with their labour force, manufacturing and where they will make whatever part so they can maximize their profits. They ONLY CARE ABOUT THEIR PROFITS and not much else. Politics can be blamed or whatever you want BUT the Owners, CEO's & Boards are the ones who make the decision, not some Washington mouthpiece. 

ORIGINAL TOPIC: *Tariffs on imported solar panels *
Will it create jobs ? NO
Will it increase US Solar Production ? Maybe
Will it get more solar deployed out there ? Unlikely, likely slow it.
2 Foreign Owned companies brought this up.. Think about WHAT their gain is ! seriously, think on it. 
Will this increase US Production ? Maybe BUT making Panels is like making bricks, mostly automated, no significant job numbers will result. It's all Material Handling for the most part. Takes 3 years to build a plant to make panels, so you'll be waiting anyways and in <5 years the Tariffs end and what would the point be. It also will NOT help US Sales to elsewhere much either.

Bottom Line, is that Panel Cost increases will more or less add 20% to installation costs. The balance of equipment & material costs is not changing. This will have more impact on larger commercial installations as opposed to regular household installs, this of course will affect their deployments.


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