# Is it legal to re-direct a creek?



## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

After a survey of our property lines, we have discovered the creek we thought to be fully on our land actually goes leaves our property and travels along the edge of neighbors land.... fully on their land for about 500 feet. The creek then comes back on our land for a short while, then leaves it again to a 3rd guys land. 

Since it starts out on our property, and the "spring head" for the feeder water is on our land, can we re-direct it by digging a new creek bed, then sending it back to the 3rd guys' land? There are three sources of water that make up the creek and all three are on our land. There is then a fourth source, from the 2nd property owners land, that enters it near where we would re-direct it. 

It is a small creek, some would say tiny. The distance that would be re-directed is about 700 feet. Is that legal to do?


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## foxfiredidit (Apr 15, 2003)

What does the neighbor in between think of this idea?


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## BaronsMom (May 22, 2005)

Better check with the US Army Corp of Engineers or your Local Natural Resources District...

A guy near my folks' farm had to put everything back when he tried to redirect a creek running through his place...even trees he bulldozed down in the process.

Better safe than sorry - - -


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

To make a long story short....

No, you cannot redirect a creek. 

Jena


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## DavidUnderwood (Jul 5, 2007)

Far as I know, in NC, you can't effect
the flow to anothers property. Just that 
part on your own land.
What you describe cuts water off to
anothers place. Not a good idee!


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## baldylocks (Aug 15, 2007)

I would definitely get ahold of a lawyer or DEP, EPA, etc. My bro-in-law is an natural resources attorney who deals with this sort of work a lot and there are tons of laws/regulations regarding moving water around.


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## RedneckPete (Aug 23, 2004)

What the heck, in true independent living style, I say redirect the creek as you see fit.

I would. See if the neighbor complains and deal with it when he or she does. It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

Pete


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Why would you want to redirect the creek? Do you just want to cut the water off to the person that it is on now? That is not a friendly way to settle your dispute. You can get to the creek in two places so what is the problem? If you were my neighbor and changed the creek you would probably lose your place and anything that you ever earned from then on. Can it be done Yes. Can it be done legal NO. If you are determined to become an outlaw then go ahead.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Boy is HAT ever convoluted thinking in this day in age. Geesh


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

The re-direction of the portion of the creek that begins on my land would not take away the creek from property owner #2. It would simply diminish the flow. They have one spring that flows into their part of the creek plus over flow from a small pond. The flow from my end of the creek would diminish their flow by only about 1/6th. They have their own water and do not need mine. 

The purpose of re-directing the flow from my side would be to gain "head" in order to channel the water into a 2000 gallon holding tank, then the over flow would continue its path in the creek. As the property lines are now, I do not have the "head" needed in order to have the "drop" into the larger tank. When we tried to dig down (to create the drop needed to the tank) we reached bedrock and I do not want to blast it out.

The #3 neighbor is willing to have the re-directed creek flow into a new place along her side of the creek. Property owner #2 would not be willing to do anything at all.....hence the need to attempt to re-direct the flow.....if it were legal to do so.

We are simply brain-storming ideas..... and re-direction of the creek was one idea.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Why not pump the water from near the spring fed source to the 2000 gal. tank? Wouldn't that be cheaper and easier than trying to dig a creek bed? You might get away with that.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

When I read this along with your earlier thread on connecting the second tank, I have to conclude that you bought the wrong sized tank. It seems to me that the easiest solution by far would be to swap your new tank for a shorter one that "matches" your original tank. No fuss, no muss, no lawsuits over water rights...


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

The Paw: No, this is not the same creek nor the same set of tanks. We have a 2nd system (actually there are 3 water systems) of springs, tanks and pumps and it is that system I asked about in another thread. That system does not produce enough water and we need to be able to make good use of the water in the 2nd creek....the creek we were thinking about re-directing. 

Another option, as mentioned above by 65284, is to find a way to dam up the water from the spring head.......but it is too little water. That spring water joins overflow from yet another neighbor (who also plans to dam up his creek, re-direct a portion to tanks, etc.).......but then his overflow from his tanks would just go back into the creek on my side......as would the eventual overflow from my tanks.....it is hard to explain.

Thank you for ideas and suggestions. We will just keep thinking it over.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

meanwhile said:


> After a survey of our property lines, we have discovered the creek we thought to be fully on our land actually goes leaves our property and travels along the edge of neighbors land.... fully on their land for about 500 feet. The creek then comes back on our land for a short while, then leaves it again to a 3rd guys land.
> 
> Since it starts out on our property, and the "spring head" for the feeder water is on our land, can we re-direct it by digging a new creek bed, then sending it back to the 3rd guys' land? There are three sources of water that make up the creek and all three are on our land. There is then a fourth source, from the 2nd property owners land, that enters it near where we would re-direct it.
> 
> It is a small creek, some would say tiny. The distance that would be re-directed is about 700 feet. Is that legal to do?


Legal is what you can get away with. 

Such redirection of a stream flow still is likely in violation of something which 'they' (the writers of the rules, including but not limited to the county Environmental Health Department, Building Inspecter, the state Division of Water Quality, Wildlife Resources Commission, Environmental Management Commision and the federal Corps of Engineers, FEMA and HUD who all attempt to exert control over private waters in one way or another) may or may not find out about and may or may not care even if they find out. It would be best to petition the relevant agencies and find out. The rules are written on a 'one size fits all cases' basis and if a reasonable plan is submitted to them, they may well allow a variance of the rules to fit that particular case.

I deal with these folks often and have seen them really come down hard on violators who failed to ask first.

(35 miles NE)


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

hillsidedigger said:


> Legal is what you can get away with.


Hardly! Legal is what is allowed UNDER the law and no way what you can simply get by with. 

The more I read these forums the more disappointed I am in my fellow homesteaders.


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## Lynn Bodoni (Feb 10, 2008)

RedneckPete said:


> What the heck, in true independent living style, I say redirect the creek as you see fit.
> 
> I would. See if the neighbor complains and deal with it when he or she does. It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
> 
> Pete


 Paying for forgiveness can be far more expensive than paying for permission, though. And some things can't or won't be forgiven.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i knew where you were going with this right off the bat...you need the head. i would venture a guess that in general, you cannot disturb a stone in that creek...without an expensive study to examine the potential impact and costly permits. (sad i know)

i saw a news story where some man in pa designed and built a hydropower system for his house. he ran a genset and was making more juice than he needed. he used the system for many years, but because he diverted a signifigant portion of a managed trout stream, he drew attention and was eventually forced to shut it down. you can only divert so much, even legally. i think your diversion of 1/6 sounds like it would be reasonable, but how much would it cost to do it legally? if you choose to do it under the radar, perhaps a better approach would be to pipe the water where you need it to go. digging a new creek seems to be an idea that would draw lots of attention. you can see that stuff from orbit. eventually someone will notice.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Think I'd be in leg-irons and strapped to a block wall if I tried that in my state. It is illegal to mess with a natural stream. You would need reams of paperwork to do what you want.

Now, if your county doesn't bother enforcing such laws, nor your state, you might get by with it for a while.

But, natural streams are not owned by you or me......

--->Paul


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

If all you need is a head and it can be had by diverting the creek just pipe the water to where you had a head . It would not disturb the creek and still get the head you need. IF you had a low place to pipe the water to then go for it but if you only wanted to dam it up and get a head that way the only thing I could suggest is that some big rocks just washed into it and made the dam naturally. You don't know where the concrete came from just make sure the rocks are the only thing showing.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Don't do it.:viking:


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

not where i live, just cross the creek with a tractor and wagon, the DEC would be all over the place, testing the fish, the crayfish, the water for miles, anything to justify their job.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

The classic IT depends most likley applies. How large a "creek" you talking about? Is it a creek, stream, drainage ditch? If a spring is feeding it and the spring is on your property, I am not sure the "creek" part will matter. DO you have the right to cap a spring? divert a spring? use it?

Local legal knowledge is your only real true answer


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## baldylocks (Aug 15, 2007)

Windy in Kansas said:


> Hardly! Legal is what is allowed UNDER the law and no way what you can simply get by with.
> 
> The more I read these forums the more disappointed I am in my fellow homesteaders.


I agree! I think it is a good thing to do environmental impact studies and check what will happen if you mess with a stream. I think it is good to hold people accountable for the changes they make to the enviroment. Trying to skirt the law is ridiculous. Your impact may seem low to you but it may not be in the grand scheme of things. And what about the next person who wants to do "x-y-z" to the area? I am disappointed with some of the responses here. The OP was asking a legitimate question; not one to be answered with "just do it and hope you get away with it".

Back to the OP...find out what is legal. It varies by state and even locality. Do this the right way please.


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## kjmatson (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't think you can, in fact where I live I can't even clear a tree out of the water after it has fallen for fear of disturbing the ecosystem in the water.


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Thank you everyone for the tips and advice. It is good to have input from others to think about as we think this one over. Thank you.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

In Wyoming or any other state that I know of, NO. It would be a good way for your nieghbor to end up owning your place.


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## jross (Sep 3, 2006)

RedneckPete said:


> What the heck, in true independent living style, I say redirect the creek as you see fit.
> 
> I would. See if the neighbor complains and deal with it when he or she does. It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
> 
> Pete


I'd be real careful now that satellite imaging is so accurate. Stream encroachment is a serious charge, let alone any lawsuits that would come from the treehuggers who would take offense because you had the silly notion that you could do what you want with your own property with out their permission. And if they find one little snickel snail, heaven help you. And if they do not find that snail, they will put one there for you.


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## kjmatson (Jul 22, 2008)

Seriously I would not do it, once the state steps in they will put more fines on you than you can get through in your lifetime. Talk to an environmental officer first and let him look at the stream, see what he has to say.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

If all the property owners that are involved agree, then I'd go for it. People have been doing it for centuries, then suddenly some old uncle decided he knows what's best for all of us. Sometimes you just gotta do what's right even if it's not what that old uncle thinks is best.


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## BaronsMom (May 22, 2005)

You know - when you are visiting with the officials - ask them about alternatives. Maybe they have some cost-share programs that would benefit you in other ways without so much diverting the creek, but something you may not have thought of...can't hurt to ask.


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## the mama (Mar 1, 2006)

In Florida, you can not divert or dam flowing water. Seasonal drainage ditches can be 'improved', but not filled in. Some @@@ss has filled in and sodded a major water drainage area, it is even down hill! So far no one has made him remove it, but wait until the first hurricaine and that sod will be across the road.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

I'm thinking you have what I call my spring which I can do whatever I want with it.But it runs into a Creek which I can not even take gravel out of because of an Endangerd Fish.

big rockpile


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Even if it is legal it is mighty unneighborly to remove water from their property.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

is this for drinking water ? 
Im curious . it seems you need a short tank . 
For rain water storage swimming pools make decent low cost tanks .
an 18x4 ft round would hold roughly 5400 gallons a 12x3 roughly 1700
or a 15 x 3 easy set roughly 2500 they might be an option


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Have you ever heard the phrase "water wars"?


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

Placement or removal of fill material (dumping stuff in or taking stuff out) from the waters of the US are regulated by section 404 of the Clean Water Act. Depending on the action and effect on the environment, some are easily permitted with a single letter and others are tied up in the courts for years. Personally, as I understand your question, I believe this is one where your proposed action will have a negative impact on your neighbor and falls into the "not so fast" category. Do some searching on Clean Water Act and you'll be reading for a while. Here is a short and sweet review of section 404 of the Clean Water Act.
http://www.usace.army.mil/cw/cecwo/reg/sec404.htm


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## KindredSpirit (Feb 16, 2006)

This site might provide some info or contact info:

*Riparian rights 

North Carolina water law is based on the "riparian rights" concept, rather than appropriated water rights. (Appropriated water rights refer to the "first in time, first in right" allocation system used in the western United States.) According to this concept, a riparian owner is entitled to the natural flow of a stream running through or along his land in its accustomed channel, undiminished in quantity and unimpaired in quality, except as may be occasioned by reasonable use of the water by other like owners. Some types of water resource projects are subject to state or federal regulations that establish parameters and procedures to determine what is a "reasonable" use. If a water resource development is not subject to any of these regulations, then a water use dispute could be handled as a civil law matter between riparian owners.*

http://www.ncwater.org/About_DWR/Water_Projects_Section/Instream_Flow/introduction.htm


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Thanks everyone - a lot of good ideas and things to think about before we do anything. We have been given two numbers for this area and have one of those agencies plus the survey man coming back out on Friday (when my husband can be here).

PyroDon: good idea about the pool however there is not room for a pool at this area and even if there were, it would be too dangerous for the wild animals, or they would tear it up (wild boar / feral hogs / bear). But we do make use of a small pool at the top of the ridge and plan a second one. No, it is not for drinking, it is for gardens/orchards. Good idea about the pool. 

BigRockPile: yes, it is a spring in one spot but the overflow from a creek joins it on our property, then it goes about 700 feet more to join the 3rd neighbors section of the creek, then back to ours. We are looking into tapping into our spring and see how much water is there. It could be it will be enough (and there is enough "head" from it to work with). to fill the tank.

highlands: Yes, it would be ver not nice to remove water if they put the water to use and I would never do that. They do not use this creek since they have a bolder creek and pond. In fact, they do not maintain the area and that is partly why we thought it was on "our" side. We certainly will not remove water that anyone uses. The neighbors further down DO use the water for cattle and horses and we have already talked with them about what impact if any would occur if we re-directly the creek. There would be little to no impact for us to fill the tank since it would fill in about 4 hours, then overflow go back in the creek. 

We have the people coming back out on Friday and will keep everything in mind as we plan what to do. In another thread, we also were given plans for how to fix a 2nd set of tanks, and we just bought the parts to do that project. If that works, then the problem of water is 3/4 solved!

Thankyou.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Im not sure iof you are saying the 2nd property owner wont help or will object those are much different things. 
which is it?


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Meanwhile,

I'm drooling because you have feral hogs. My hog dogs and I would be having a blast but I digress. Here in Kansas, there are some creeks/rivers that have endangered fishes...I believe KS has the largest population of several different species of darters and shiners and in some parts of KS, they are only in one creek in the whole country so I would be careful and see what kind of fishes you have in your creek before I do anything.....


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## cab (Dec 20, 2005)

In WI, a lot depends on whether or not the stream is considered to be navigable water. If it is not, then there are very few laws governing (no damming, no dredging) what you can and can not do.


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## Use Less (Nov 8, 2007)

In some ways it is better that the water has several "owners". In case of damage by flood, nasty stuff getting in there and heading downstream, etc., yours wouldn't be the only pockets somebody tries to come after. I'd I were neighbor 2, I'd be mighty upset if somebody tried what you suggest. Have you thought of offering to buy the land so you are the sole owner of what it is you want to do? Sue


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Thank you again everyone -- all are good points to consider. We have the survey people coming back and man from county office plus real estate man and one former owners......and one owner from "up" the steam. The children and I also fixed one other water pump today (thank you again to Agmantoo and other's for tips on our other threads).....so we have use of 150 gallons more per every four hours. Every bit helps.

TedH71: Those feral and wild hogs are awful! We caught one about a month ago, the Black Russian type, 250 - 300 pounds said the Hunter to whom we gave the boar. The boys enjoyed the catch but we have not seen any more since. Pigs usually run off once one is shot or caught but they will be back once we get rain or when it cools off. The kids have outdoor motion cameras set up all over the place for a school project. They enjoy it.

Thank you everyone.


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Update! The Survey owner came out on Friday (with the other two men) and the good news is that we DO own part of the larger creek and we own all of the smaller creek. The first survey men who came out (last Monday) admitted they had "eye balled it" and not actually used the instruments since the woods were too thick! We found old survey marks on trees, plus the former owner told us where to find the metal rod in the creek. They put new marks on trees, new rods down and the orange ribbon too so we can further mark it. 

We are thrilled and very relieved. Thank you again for all the good advice, suggestions and links. We appreciate the help.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

What a relief for you! Thats good that there are now better markings, should help prevent any future issues.


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## germanbini (Jan 3, 2005)

Maybe it would be less expensive just to dig a well somewhere near those springs, would that work?


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Hello, germanbini, yes we are considering the option of a well also. And yes, Wags, it is a relief! Have a good week and thanks again.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

What a strange sounding survey operation


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

fantasymaker said:


> What a strange sounding survey operation


That's what I was thinking! and they supposed to be licensed? I don't know of any surveyor that would "eyeball" anything as his license depends on it being right. He would have to back up anything he did in court.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I would demand another survey if someone told me that it was "eyeballed", and I would want it verified by another survey company... at their expense.

Otherwise I think I would be the one taking the "survey" company to court.


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Hello -- yes, they are licensed and I think normally they do a very good job. It was extremely hot the day they were here, yellow jackets bit all of us, one man has his 11 year old child with him plus the area is so overgrown (since last survey) that it was difficult. After I pointed out the lines they first marked were no where near the area I had been told, they did check it again, and then came back again.......I think it was just too hot and difficult. They did come back and we did find the old tree marks and the former owner did verify most of it.

When it cools off we plan to check everything again. I had my kids out there listening and learning how to read the plats/deeds and descriptions and so we will be able to retrace it all. If there seems to be any change, then we will call someone else to get another survey. But, for now, I think it is all good.

I think they are honest folks who just got too hot and overwhelmed that one day. 

Now........we are trying to learn to get water out of the part of the creek that we do own! Have a good week.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

I take it that you are planning on using the water from the creek in a household. If so be soo careful as to what is in the creek. You may get some "nasties" that you don't want to tangle with. There aren't too many surface streams that are safe to drink from.


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## Faithful One (Mar 22, 2008)

Jena said:


> To make a long story short....
> 
> No, you cannot redirect a creek.
> 
> Jena


Yes you can! My Great, Great Grandpa did it! Dug a ditch between two tributaries and the creek made the way. The creek however floods out of it's banks about four times a year, covers the road about 4ft deep.

Also a farmer in a county north of me had his creek dug out, so it floods less on his land and more on those downstream, unless it really pours, then it backs up, hehe.

In fact about a 1/4 mile south there was a drainage ditch dug by a farmer, and the creek naturally took to it. But these creeks are not navigable. I think it's more of a "mind your own business" thing.


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi YuccaFlatsRanch - and thank you for the warning about surface streams. No, we are not using the creek & spring waters for household use. We do have a deep well (850 feet deep) for our house and the Bed & Breakfast Cottages. We also use the UV water cleaners for household water. 

We plan to use the creek water (and two spring systems) for watering gardens, orchards, herb beds and flowers we sell in our small farm business. Up to now we had enough water in two spring fed tanks (one only 150 gallons and the other about 450 gallons) but both of those springs are too low to tap. Although we are working on a gray water sytem, we still need more water and the creek is the next best place to tap. At the spot we plan to clear and tap there is only a small stream of water however on the back spot (where the survey just showed us the spot we own) there is ten times more water due to over flow off another property.......and hence the need for the survey.

Faithful One: yes, I agree that one can indeed re-direct a creek (my children have been working to move one curve of the small creek away from a tiny bridge they built) but whether or not it is "legal" to do so is another matter! Now that we do indeed "own" a portion of land along the larger creek, there is no need to re-direct it!

Thanks again everyone!


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## lj (Jul 27, 2002)

I would check with the second neighbor. If they say No. That is the end of it. However , even if they say yes you are still vunerable. What if they change their mind later or an heir? Even if all parties agree the DNR will either not let you,or bog you down with so much paper work and fees that you will wonder why you ever considered it in the first place.
If you can do something on your own land with no impact on the neighbors . I would just quietly do it. Don't ask - don't tell- and don't brag to your friends about how you got away with not telling the DNR.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Faithful One said:


> Yes you can! My Great, Great Grandpa did it! Dug a ditch between two tributaries and the creek made the way. The creek however floods out of it's banks about four times a year, covers the road about 4ft deep.
> 
> Also a farmer in a county north of me had his creek dug out, so it floods less on his land and more on those downstream, unless it really pours, then it backs up, hehe.
> 
> In fact about a 1/4 mile south there was a drainage ditch dug by a farmer, and the creek naturally took to it. But these creeks are not navigable. I think it's more of a "mind your own business" thing.


How is making it "floods less on his land and more on those downstream" a "mind your own business" thing? 

I am happy that you aren't "minding your own business" around me.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

This survey thing just gets weirder and weirder. Bringing your kids? Not being ready for the weather? Overwhelmed by a simple survey? Not doing it right and telling you it was done? This is all way to strange . Hire a new surveyer and dont pay the last one.
Where are all the professional surveyers that frequent this site? how does it sound to them?


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

Just so everyone knows it, there is technical assistance available to every one of us from the NRCS without a single string attached. Sometimes they are slow, but the deal with these kind of planning challenges all the time. I have several spring developmnets ongoing with folks right now through the EQIP program.

Tom


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

RedneckPete said:


> What the heck, in true independent living style, I say redirect the creek as you see fit.
> 
> I would. See if the neighbor complains and deal with it when he or she does. It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
> 
> Pete


That's the worst advice I've ever seen. Glad you're not my neighbor.

Water is a tricky thing. Let's say you redirect the creek improperly and it floods out your neighbor's cornfield. You're liable. Let's see you redirect the creek and it dries up. Anyone within a mile whose well has problems can suddenly find you responsible, and the courts might just agree with them.

If you and your neighbor come up with a scheme to redirect a creek, that's one thing. But if you redirect a creek running through my property without my permission then you've got a problem. I might be using it to water livestock, or to supply electrical power, or I might simply just like looking at it. From your point of view, the worst thing that could happen would be that I might end up owning your home (with a lien for damages) and the best thing that would come of it would be a permanently tainted neighbor-relationship.


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

Hello -- many good points and view to consider. We always get many good pointers and things to consider here. Thank you everyone.

Re-Directing the creek was / is a very bad idea. At the time I pondered on that radical plan, we had the survey that was incorrect. After the new survey (and after survey we have met with all neighbors - not just one) we see we do own most of the creek and all of one creek. There is no need to re-direct any creek and......it was not a good idea to begin with. 

I went into panic over water and had a bad idea. Thank goodness people here speak up and point out bad ideas and then go on to propose more sensible options. 

We now have a rain water collection system in place, we spent most of this week repairing one spring, all children (and the Husband) have been educated in how to reduce their use of household water, and we have designed a great (if I do say so myself) Gray Water System! (gravity fed, Slow Sand Filtration)

We also were able to find the most Elderly man who put in the 2nd spring system (well......he did not put the spring there, Mother Nature did that part, but he "tapped" the spring and put in the reservoir containers and he also put in spring fed systems for three other neighbors -- he is very knowledgeable and we are thankful he has not died.....we had been told he had passed but we found him in the next city)....and he has agreed to come out and teach us about springs, creeks, and how to straighten out the mess we made through our ignorance. We are thankful he will be able to teach us to take care of this for ourselves.

Thank you very much for all the good points and things to think about. We appreciate it. 

Tom Jones: Thank you for the NRCS tip. I will find them too. 

Thank you everyone!


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

Windy, you and me both. Wow.


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