# Filing Bankruptcy. Pros-Cons



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

The economy is wasted.
Drought.
Skyrocketing food, fuel, etc.

You are buried in stupid debt.

Do you (A) do all you can do to pay it off....leaving zero dollars to prepare for the worst.
Do you (B) file bankruptcy, never mess with credit again, and focus that money on saving for the future / preparing for the worst?

What say you?


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

I have never filed for bankruptcy but I have been bankrupted on. People only see the one side of things by getting debt free. But what people fail to understand is that the one who files for bankruptcy got either a good or service from another person but using legal means to not pay back what one got. Bankruptcy does not happen to nameless/faceless people.

I was bankrupted on in a hard time in our life. I was working 3 jobs to keep my head above water while providing for my wife and two kids. It basically meant that someone literally took food off my families table.

I in no way want to put a guilt trip on anyone who has bankrupted or plans on doing it. However, it must be understood that when one files for bankruptcy, one is shifting their debt on to others.

I have read that 80% of bankruptcies involve medical bills. It is a flawed stat. That number is not "why" people bankrupted but was just one more bill they bankrupted on. People might have accrued 100,000 credit card debt and have a 2000 dollar medical bill. What happens, people say they bankrupted due to medical bills but it was just a small percentage of their overall debt.

Sorry to ramble, just attempting for you to see the hidden side of bankruptcy. My personal belief is you pay your bills on time. My credit score is in the 99% range. I got that by paying on time every time. Whatever debt one has, whether stupid or not, pay what you owe.

My opinion, bankruptcy should not be allowed. I think there should be provisions where a repayment plan is made. Ten percent of ones salary is not much to pay.......sorry....you can see I have a passionate concern over this issue.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Never filed it, nor been close, but it would be a tough choice for me. 

I look at a debt as a moral obligation that I got myself into, good choice or bad, and skipping out on it would be my last choice.

That said, some debts are more important that others, IMHO. Money borrowed from an individual, or company, is money that came directly out of their pockets and sweat of their brow. I have a real problem not paying them.

Money borrowed from a bank is money simply created out of thin air.....they did NOTHING to earn it, other than a small bookkeeping entry ( study how fractional banking works if you don't believe this ), and thus, I'd have a LOT less trouble making a business decision to not pay them.

But overall......I'm glad we've always been real shy of borrowing money from anyone. I really like to pay as I go, and if I can't pay, don't buy.

Edit to add:

Medical debt. Not quite as fake as money created by banks, BUT those without insurance sure get a screw job. I had heart surgery last summer.....bills came to $120,000+. Hospital settled IN FULL with the insurance company for 37,000. WTH ??? Without insurance, they would have expected me to pay the full 120,000 I assume......when they know the "real" bill was 37,000. So, yeah, it wouldn't bother me too much to bankrupt out on them if they refused to take 37,000 from me the same as they take from an insurance company.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I did it about 8 years ago, becasue of medical costs. I did not have credit cards or a car payment and the house was owned free and clear, not mortgaged. I had close to 70,000 owed to the hospital....and I was out of work.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

And if you'd had insurance, the hospital would have settled for 20k......or less.

Hospital bills are wildly inflated......which I really don't understand, since they clearly are not gonna get it most of the time. Why not simply bill the REAL cost ?


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

For me its like sex....you never do it "casually" because the risks to yourself and others down the line are "big"....and its just not right morally....someone has to pay for the good life someone had before bankruptcy that they couldn't afford...and its usually the family that has worked hard to do things the right way....

Negotiate the hospital bills if at all possible...my friend did and saved 12k on emergency gallbladder surg.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I coniderd this afte the recession in the 80's, the one where we had to move to Kansas because we found work here. I decided that if I could pay off the bills, that I would. I had used the credit card in good faith and only for the things that we needed, and I thought that the people who loaned us the money deserved to be paid for the food that we had eaten.

It took years to pay it off. It works that way, sometimes.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

TnAndy said:


> And if you'd had insurance, the hospital would have settled for 20k......or less.
> 
> Hospital bills are wildly inflated......which I really don't understand, since they clearly are not gonna get it most of the time. Why not simply bill the REAL cost ?


Its a game, try for more and hope to get it,offsets when you don't get paid. if not take a percentage that's actually closer to the real cost and be lucky you collected.take what you can get more or less.

that is why insurance is high... they may never pay the actual bill but will justify premiums over them.


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## Countrybumpkin (May 12, 2002)

Concerning medical bills...I just got a new CPAP machine, as my other one broke. I looked at the bill they were going to submit to my ins. co., and it stated the cost of the machine at $3500. I told the nurse there was no way that thing costs $3500, and she said that was true-they mark the bill as high as they think they can, and the ins. co. will jew them down to the approx. cost. She told me that if they made the cost less, the ins. co. would again talk them down, and the co that made the unit-and the co I got it from- would not make any money. Sad.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

What people don't understand is that only 1 in 6 pay their medical bills. This came directly from a hospital administrator. He basically stated on Dateline that of 6 who enter their hospital, only 1 will pay their bill. So, they shift the cost of the 5 who don't pay to the 1 who does. So for people like myself and many other millions of Americans who pay for health insurance through the nose, you are really carrying 5 others. If everyone paid their bills, health insurance would be a quarter of what it is now. 

Dateline was showing costs they were billing the patient. Pills, gloves, etc....basic stuff nurses and doctors use were marked up 1000%, yes 10 times what it cost them. A pair of gloves cost the hospital 2 cents and they billed the patient $1.50.

I know of a good many people who are having babies on the gov't dime, abuse the system with a medical card, or simply don't pay. Those that just don't pay usually get their bill written off. I've seen it numerous times. The hospital basically turns around and bills the average guy with insurance many times more to make up for the other 80%. Nothing is really free whether welfare, food stamps, or free healthcare....its just shifted to those who pay.

This is a very interesting thread. We hear so many times about rich people not paying their fair share but fail to see that its not really the rich who don't pay their fair share but the average person. The people who get hardest hit in society is not the rich, poor, etc....but the guy who fulfills his obligations by paying whats owed.

Sorry if you think I sat on a bee or something....  But, my wife and I have been married for 20+ years and most of that time I had 2 and some years 3 jobs. So yea, it is tough when you are pulling your weight in society and required to pull others. My wife and I stopped at 2 kids because we felt we could afford no more. Yet, many out there are popping out kids and getting on more social programs than you can shake a stick at.


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## stamphappy (Jul 29, 2010)

NickieL said:


> I did it about 8 years ago, becasue of medical costs. I did not have credit cards or a car payment and the house was owned free and clear, not mortgaged. I had close to 70,000 owed to the hospital....and I was out of work.


Same thing happened to my folks when my dad died of cancer. He didn't tell anyone he was sick until it was too late because he didn't want to incur any expenses. He'd cough and cough and cough but say he was okay (he was a smoker). Said he went to the doctor, but I don't think he did. My parents did not have health insurance. Made about $80 over poverty level so could not get medical assistance. Dad finally spent 8 days in the hospital before he passed. 

Mom couldn't pay the medical bills. They were like Nickie and did not have any credit card debt or other debt. Several of the doctors accepted payments of $20 per month but not the hospital. They refused. She started having panic attacks and couldnt' breathe as she was so worried about the debt she owned. She finally had to declare bankruptcy. She refused to include in the bankruptcy those doctors that accepted the monthly payments. It took her about 5 years but she got them all paid off.


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## stamphappy (Jul 29, 2010)

(A) do all you can to pay it off. 

(B) should not be an option when someone purchases things on credit. People buy things then expect others to pay for those things. They want those things for free (and keep those things) and they want someone else to foot the bill. 

Go to a credit union, see if they can help you consolidate and get one payment.


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## pumpkin (May 8, 2012)

What about a consumer proposal? This is not bankruptcy but you negotiate what you will pay to your creditors. You are fully responsible but usually the amount that is negotiated for you is manageable.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Bankrupcty is absolutely out of the question for anyone who would follow either Messianic teachings or those of the Old Testament.

There are warnings and references innumerable about debt and coveting ones neighbor's goods.

Plain old, unavoidable hardship, one might claim ?
Welcome to the real world.

Better to wander penniless than to reneg on a promise to pay.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The economy is wasted.
> Drought.
> Skyrocketing food, fuel, etc.
> 
> ...



If your family is at the point that paying old debt is preventing you from caring for your children, then file, and don't hide your head. Jubilee is a biblical concept.
If you are actually not buried under debt, but just want a way out then you would be filing for the wrong reason with the wrong heart.
I don't know all the rules, but if you have a home, a mortgage, then filing might mess that up. You should get some good legal advice first. You wouldn't want to file if would cost you your home and make you homeless.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Well, now. I've seen two by my ex= and one I had after the divorce, but most of it was preventative to keep ex-s charges to transfer to me. And the one most out money, my atty who wrote my divorce settlement knew she would not get paid, but my ex- annoyed her that much.

but my ex- went bankrupt due to bad business decisions, the businesses and him - then two or three others, including my brother due to them using their money to help keep the businesses going to the very end.

So, I am fortunate that the people I went bankrupt against held it against my ex, and understood why I did it. 

But, now to the question of doing it or not doing it.

1. You can have a date, get the judgement, then about 4 months later it is recorded, as I believe the delay is to allow creditors to contest any part of it.
2. You can go bankrupt again in 7 years (or it was that way back in 1984).
3. It is on your record for 10 years. 
4. You will get a lot of secured credit card offers as you have to pay them, you're a good risk for years.
5. Many places will not give you credit until you reestablish a good credit record.


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## Buffy in Dallas (May 10, 2002)

"Better to wander penniless than to reneg on a promise to pay."

Tell that to your poor hungry children who you are forcing to suffer because of your pride!

There is nothing wrong with declaring bankruptcy once if you get in over your head due to unforeseen circumstances or even just stupidity IF you learn your lesson and don't ever get in over your head again. (not counting illness or injury) 

About 25 years ago my husband lost his job and I was a stay at home mom with a herd of little ones. We lived on credit cards and hubby's mowing lawns for a year and a half before he found another job. We bit the bullet and paid back $25,000. It took years of deprivation and suffering and they still trashed our credit even though we paid. Looking back now I should have declared bankruptcy.


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## Zipporah (Jul 30, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> Bankrupcty is absolutely out of the question for anyone who would follow either Messianic teachings or those of the Old Testament.
> 
> There are warnings and references innumerable about debt and coveting ones neighbor's goods.
> 
> ...


Our money system is NOT based on the Bible.Jesus cared for the poor and would never stand with our banking system.Loaning/borrowing is NOT forbidden in the Bible, but charging interest on such money IS.So be careful of what you say is Christ's.
Read Deuteronomy 23:18-20,Ezekiel 22:12,Nehemiah 5:7 Deuteronomy 15:1

The banker and financial institutions are failing in this country due to unsound lending practices. No amount of Federal money infusions is helping.They have charged high interest to people and made it where people can not pay ,jobs have gone and are going and the people are some how to blame.I don't buy it. Some times bad things happen to good people. The Bible says to help those in need and debt Leviticus 25:35-37,Exodus 22:25


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## Jokarva (Jan 17, 2010)

I would do A. Outside of serious illness I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't.


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## Zipporah (Jul 30, 2006)

I think you do what is best for the family business wise. If filing is then I would file. Companies do what is best for business. Families have to do the same.You have to survive and that means financially too.


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## PerhamMN (Oct 24, 2011)

stamphappy said:


> Go to a credit union, see if they can help you consolidate and get one payment.


Bingo. This is what I did. And got a great interest rate, compared to what I was paying before.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My exH dragged us into debt when we were married. He'd steal the credit cards out of my purse and go charge $400 to take his coworkers out to lunch at a chain restaurant. He'd get the mail first and steal the credit card checks, make them out to cash, forge my signature and then go spend the cash he had obtained on whatever his whims of the moment were.

He couldn't obtain credit on his own because his credit score was so lousy, but my credit score was at that point almost 800, so he abused my credit repeatedly. 

When I left, I had almost $50,000 in debt - not a penny of which was incurred by me. I tried to fight it in court but the judge said that it was "marital debt" and we each owed half. Well ex wouldn't pay his half and the monthly payments were so high that on my salary alone my kids were going without the basics.

I tried everything - called the credit card companies and tried to negotiate a lower payment amount and was turned down. Tried to get a loan to pay off the high-rate credit card debt, but my debt-to-income ratio was horrible and I didn't qualify. After over a year of struggling to make the payments I consulted a bankruptcy attorney and filed.

Yes, I felt horrible doing it. But in all honesty the debt wasn't mine - I hadn't enjoyed any of those pricey lunches or the gadgets and gizmos that the ex had spent the money on :shrug:. And I even called both credit card companies and told them "If you cannot offer me a reduced monthly payment amount and reduce my interest rate, I'm going to stop paying you and file bankruptcy." They still wouldn't budge :shrug:

If you run around namby-pamby buying things you know you cannot afford and when the bills get to be too much you file bankruptcy then you're a horrible person IMO. But if you try everything in your power to negotiate and pay them and get backed into a corner like I did, you have to do what you have to do.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Several things I noticed in this thread...

"Jubilee is a biblical concept." If you are a jew living under the old covenant, then yes. To this date, I don't know of one jew living under that system so that is out.

I hear of many saying..."but my children need to eat or ___________" Should you have not thought about that before you made those reckless decisions? Extreme debt does not happen over-night.

Here is my thought, what about my children? The other entity supposedly in good faith was supposed to pay me. Should I not get a choice in the matter? Extreme debt does not just "happen".

My point in this is ....You made the choice to take my good and keep it and now you bankrupt. Why am I not given the choice? That choice has been taken away from me. As a result, food was taken off my table and away from my children. Is this fair? Lets talk my children. 

Keep in mind, choice did not begin when filing bankruptcy, it began when buying things on plastic.

That said, for anyone who bankrupted on a hospital bill when there were no other bills included, then I do feel a concern there and that is one of the problems with our health care system. However, many who have told me they bankrupted on a hospital bill usually had other debt included. Rarely does anyone bankrupt on hospital bills alone. I am sure they are out there and if you are one, I am sorry and that is a problem with our system as previously noted. However, many that I know won't bankrupt on hospital bills alone because the hospital writes it off and cancels it...or shifts the cost to those who pay.

By the way, the bible also says owe no man anything. If you study that out, it is not talking about debt but being in a position of not paying a person when payment is demanded. IE....while I may have a house loan, as long as I make my monthly payment, I don't "owe" them.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Our system is pretty messed up....

When you look at welfare, food stamps, WIC, bankruptcy, those not paying medical bills, those unpaid amounts are basically shifted to others who are good stewards.

The above is really akin to socialism.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Well, the title of this thread is bankruptcy pro-con, not judge anyone on doing it.

So, lets be practical - some of you are starting to sound very judgmental about anyone doing a bankruptcy. Good for those that did not do it; and while I'm not really in favor of it - there are times it's needed to be done. Unless you've been driven to do it, don't judge too harshly - there's still a chance you'll get the opportunity.

And please - throwing Bible verses around does nothing to prove your point, only that you can find enough verses to prove YOUR point. 

So can anyone that has been through it give any pro/con's about it?


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

illinoisguy said:


> Keep in mind, choice did not begin when filing bankruptcy, it began when buying things on plastic.


Illinoisguy,

I generally agree with your viewpoint. It is from the other side, which are the lenders, the biggest financial losers in a bankruptcy. Valid viewpoint.

You seem to put a lot of the blame on the borrower who is defaulting, as it should be. However, it seems to me that the lender has a fair amount of blame in this transaction too. Why did they give credit to someone who was so close to the edge? Was a credit report run? If I'm going to lend someone something or extend credit, I want to know what I'm dealing with. I have an obligation to myself to reduce my risk. If I don't exercise proper due diligence, I am accepting the risk. Never fun to be burned, but this is how I would avoid it in the future.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Well now why hasn't someone checked out Chapter 13 ,collections stop as well as interest but you pay the court payments that they disburse.I know some that have done this as the creditors were adding fees and interest faster than the national debt . :awh:

Have heard some co prefer total bankruptcy as they can write it off their taxes and books at 100%

Credit is a tool if miss used it can bite you in the rear like a big dog . 
Wife and i sit home a lot ,don't got much don't want much either .


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Angie, its likely that I'm one of the that's coming across as judgmental. I stand by my posts but fully understand what you are saying.

New laws came out that made it tougher to file. In fact, if there is a possibility or a hint of paying, they will make you pay.

pros: The pro I see is that you are out of debt. Which is the main point.

cons:The decision impacts others and could be people you know. 7 years with bad credit, though you can still get loans from loan sharks(credit agencies) at 10-15% interest. Probably won't be able to buy anything of value like home or car that is decent in that time. If I remember correctly, a law was passed putting restrictions on bankruptcy. One of them being you can only bankrupt twice but never again. With the new law, its not as easy. They can come and liquidate anything you have of value, cars, home, boat etc.... 

There is some misunderstanding as to what you can keep. I remember people thinking that if they bankrupt, they can keep their home and car and other items. The fact is the bank can come after your home and take it back. If you owned more than one car, your additional vehicles would be sold to pay your creditors. If you owed on a car, they came and got it.

The law passed in the mid-2000 time overhauled the process and its much tougher and there is no guarantee that you will be allowed to file.


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

mpillow said:


> *For me its like sex*....you never do it "casually" because the risks to yourself and others down the line are "big"....*and its just not right morally....*


What??


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Businesses do it, the government will be soon, why not.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I think that was a reference to casual sex not being right, not all sex.

Anyway, I totally agree with illinoisguy. I stayed out of this at the beginning because I don't have any experience with filing bankruptcy myself, but I have lost money to people defaulting and filing bankruptcy. Chapter 7 really is much tougher now than it used to be. Basically, if you CAN pay, you WILL pay. So the very fact that you have a choice pretty much determines it most likely won't be worth the expense to file. I'd suggest the consolidation loan if you can swing it. It will make a huge difference in the total amount you end up paying, assuming you have high rate debt.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The economy is wasted.
> Drought.
> Skyrocketing food, fuel, etc.
> 
> ...


................If , there wasn't a need for BR in our society , the laws would never have been enacted ! Large corporations move in and out of BR when it suits a purely finanical motive and NO ONE seems too attach their "moral judement" to their motives as we'll seem to do for personal BR . So , after seeking knowledgeable council prior to your decision , discord the moral aspect , because NO ONE ELSE has to walk a "mile in your shoes" and do what is best for your own personal situation . , fordy


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

fordy said:


> ................If , there wasn't a need for BR in our society , the laws would never have been enacted ! Large corporations move in and out of BR when it suits a purely finanical motive and NO ONE seems too attach their "moral judement" to their motives as we'll seem to do for personal BR . So , after seeking knowledgeable council prior to your decision , discord the moral aspect , because NO ONE ELSE has to walk a "mile in your shoes" and do what is best for your own personal situation . , fordy


I agree with fordy's response... I will also add this piece:

Many people agonize over the decision to file for bankruptcy. As someone that teaches both consumer credit and business credit, I tell people not to wait too long to make the decision. In addition to the stress being bad for your health, waiting has an adverse effect on the ultimate outcome. *The higher your credit score is prior to filing for bankruptcy, the higher it will be afterwards.*

Most people wait until their credit score is completely in the tank before filing. The bankruptcy itself causes an extreme drop in score which means that you have so far to rise before any creditor will trust you again. Here is a link to a website that might be able to help you to gather information. 

Creditboards

It is a site where average people help eachother out with advice and suggestions...without laying a guilt trip. Once a bankruptcy has been filed, they can even help you to rebuild carefully by opening credit accounts with the few companies that are likely to approve.

While some folks might not approve of opening new accounts, it is important to build a stable and strong credit history because it affects everything from the car & homeowners insurance rates that you pay to your ability to rent a vehicle or even a hotel room. These things can have an adverse effect on your family's finances post-bankruptcy.


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## Groene Pionier (Apr 23, 2009)

We have a very different bankrupty system, you can do that 1x in your life and that is that. You get appointed a receiver who is dealing with all your administration, you mail is opened and emails are read. That is after they take all your belongings except for the clothes you are wearing and 1 months worth of food. This will last for 3-5 years where you your income is conviscated and the receiver pay you about 70 euro's a week for living (that includes food, clothes, shoes, everything).

Such a decision is not taken lightly imo. My personal experience is that the ppl here aren't willing to make different payments scheduled if you ask for it. 

Also it is concidered to be very shameful here, lot's of judgements on ppl's parts...

As a side note: we have a lot of stipulations. My debts consist of business debts by 1 bank only: I had all my products assessed (obligated and regulated by law) and my business residence is also stipulated by law: you need a license to establish which implies a more expensive building. All this costs a lot of money, a LOT of money and if you can't pay it all back, they will file for bankrupty... Ironicaly the local governments have to help you out by giving social benefits until you have found a job and the legal procedures, also the receiver has to be paid. all done by the government. A business owner which has to declare for bankruptcy is costing the state 115.000 euro in general. My business loans/investment is 16.000 euro.
interesting when they force you to file for bankruptcy...Because I don't think a small business owner is filing for bankruptcy lightly.

BTW I never owned a credit card, never bought anything on credit either...

I was doing just fine, taking care of my children and work at the same time (at home) until the crisis hit here hard as well. Now it is not sure if I will be able to make it. 




AngieM2 said:


> Well, the title of this thread is bankruptcy pro-con, not judge anyone on doi
> 
> So, lets be practical - some of you are starting to sound very judgmental about anyone doing a bankruptcy. Good for those that did not do it; and while I'm not really in favor of it - there are times it's needed to be done. Unless you've been driven to do it, don't judge too harshly - there's still a chance you'll get the opportunity.
> 
> ...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Could someone explain to me what is moral about telling one's creditors, "So long, suckers.....and thanks for trusting me with the loan," ?

If one were to go to each creditor, begging forgiveness after explaining the situation, then there may be hope of a "righteous" remedy.

As for "our money system", no one forces any of us into personal debt, and to hide behind the immoral financial and legal loophole system is, literally, to call upon and hide behind another god (other gods) for your deliverance.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

TheMartianChick said:


> I tell people not to wait too long to make the decision. *The higher your credit score is prior to filing for bankruptcy, the higher it will be afterwards.*
> 
> Most people wait until their credit score is completely in the tank before filing.


I had never read that before. It is an interesting, and educational, topic. Thank you for posting it. I will be sure to point that out to people who ask me for counsel on the subject in the future.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner said:


> Could someone explain to me what is moral about telling one's creditors, "So long, suckers.....and thanks for trusting me with the loan," ?
> 
> If one were to go to each creditor, begging forgiveness after explaining the situation, then there may be hope of a "righteous" remedy.
> 
> As for "our money system", no one forces any of us into personal debt, and to hide behind the immoral financial and legal loophole system is, literally, to call upon and hide behind another god (other gods) for your deliverance.



Not all people live "out" of the system as you do. I think your judgement is opening up you for judgements of your lifestyle and opting out of various situations the rest of us live in.
so, don't judge so, unless you wish to be so judged.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Forerunner said:


> As for "our money system", no one forces any of us into personal debt, and to hide behind the immoral financial and legal loophole system is, literally, to call upon and hide behind another god (other gods) for your deliverance.



In most cases it is illness, which is of the enemy not God, that forces people into bankruptcy. The fall of man (sin) brought illness, disease, and death to humanity. It also brings debt. Even in biblical times we see the woman with the issue of blood who spent all she had on doctors and was not helped by them.
I highly doubt the OP went out and went wild with credit cards living the high life to get herself into this situation. And since that a person who doesn't take care of his children is worse than a reprobate in God's eyes, then caring for your family is of a higher priority to Jesus than paying a creditor.
Besides, the current political system in America doesn't recognize Jubilee. And that is a biblical concept which inspired the laws of laws of bankruptcy anyway.
If you are business which has enough capital to give credit, then you can afford to forgive credit too. Do you follow the concept of Jubilee to your debtors? If not then don't complain about the bankruptcy system which does allow debtors to claim a Jubilee year on their debts.
People all over society are hurting. And people are more important than money.

Now, please don't get me wrong, if people do go out, go wild with credit to live the high life, then purposely plan ahead to take advantage of their creditors, that is wrong. If people go out to borrow thousands of dollars to go gambling and partying with the plan of filing before they even borrow than that is wrong. They have the wrong motive at heart. But if a person is just stuck, distraught, and simply cannot pay the creditors, then they certainly should not hang their head about filing bankruptcy. Jubilee is a biblical concept.

And, honestly, we shouldn't have to worry about about the heart motives of people when they do file. The Judge of all the Earth will do right. If a hundred people people file bankruptcy on you, Jesus is still big enough to take care of your family. Your God supplies your needs according to HIS RICHES in Glory. It doesn't matter what happens on earth. Your needs are provided by HIS RICHES. And if they file falsely, so what? Jesus is big enough to take care of that too. What they sow they will reap. The Judge of all the earth will do right.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I'm not judging anyone.

I'm sharing knowledge on the subject.

A promise is a promise.

Living beyond one's means is not wise.

As for the medical industry, that is another thread, in which I would also have little good news.

Just because some of you have filed for bankruptcy, does not make it right.

Ask me sometime how cold reality is.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

forerunner..got a question..you know the bible better than me....under the way god had originally set up things wasnt all debt to be wiped clean ever 7 years?


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## machinistmike (Oct 16, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The economy is wasted.
> Drought.
> Skyrocketing food, fuel, etc.
> 
> ...


The economy WILL turn around.
The drought you/me/us have zero control over, unless you know some super secret rain dance which I would happily dance the night away.
You can control your consumption of those skyrocketing commodities.

You got yourself into that stupid debt and you should do 2 things with it,
1. learn from your mistake and not dig yourself into a hole like this ever again.
2. Make every effort to pay back what you borrowed. Talk to your creditors and try to work out a payment plan that will work for both parties.

I am in the process of digging myself out of a huge hole that I dug. It is taking me years to do it and I have had to pass on many things because I already spent next weeks check 2 yrs ago.

Hospital debt was one of the easiest debts I have ever had to work with. I called every doctors's office I owed every week and talked to them. I worked out payment plans for $10-$20/month each for all of them. They all eventually wrote my debt off but they only did it because I was in contact with them constantly and showed I had intent to pay them back. If you ignore them they will turn your debt over to collection.

It might be a good time to start selling things you have no use for and either use that money to pay your debts down or use it to fund your "prepare for the worst" needs.

Bottom line is to do your best to honor your debts and use bankruptcy as a last resort. Then you can focus on preparing for the worst.

Good luck and I hope you get your financial house in order. It is very tough to be up to your eyeballs in debt.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

elkhound said:


> forerunner..got a question..you know the bible better than me....under the way god had originally set up things wasnt all debt to be wiped clean ever 7 years?


That system has been abandoned, for all practical purposes. For those who would "rekindle" it and commit to doing business only among themselves, it might would still apply.

Even so, no one can force a creditor, anywhere, to forgive a debt.

Otherwise there is tyranny.

If we would be free, then the playing field must be even for creditor and debtor, alike.

The current system, from every indication I've been privy to, is the Babylon warned of in Revelation and elsewhere. 
We may be "born" into it, but there is a little admonition, "Come out of her, My People".
If we choose to stay, and do business therein, up to and including using its gimmicks to defraud our neighbor, then we become subject to "go and call upon the gods that you have chosen, in your day of adversity, for I will not hear....."


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## Teri (Jan 13, 2003)

Laura, you've mentioned in other discussions that you're taking the Dave Ramsey course. Have you studied Dave's position on bankruptcy yet?


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Forerunner said:


> That system has been abandoned, for all practical purposes. For those who would "rekindle" it and commit to doing business only among themselves, it might would still apply.
> 
> Even so, no one can force a creditor, anywhere, to forgive a debt.
> 
> ...


I would tend to agree with you on the basic principle. But most don't/have'nt lived on that basic principle.

The system is rigged and the creditors fudge the numbers. They inflate what is owed. Late fees and jacked up interest rates. The system is set up as dishonest.

I understand the moral high ground. It's true, those contracts should never have been signed. But, the system is designed to give the opportunity to "Come out of her, My People". Bankruptcy allowes that to happen. Once learned, one might prevent themselves from falling prey to it again.

I filed bankruptcy once a few years ago. I am now free to not fall back into the system. And while it is picking and choosing, the couple local buisiness's and personal accuaintances I had owed, were paid. Only the banks and insurance(health) were shorted from the created money.

And to be perfectly honest, after learning how crooked ceditors are in the majority of cases, I feel no remorse.


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

I didn't read all the posts...lost me when the Bible got broke out...but having filed before:

It's not an end all be all. You can opt for 13 which gives you a debt consolidation type thing that allows you to pay the debt via the courts. Or go for 7 which, in most cases, wipes it all out.

7 is iffy unless you owe a lot and there is no hope of repaying...make sure the lawyer is good and gets EVERYTHING on there (I've been sitting in the office when the legal aide gets griped out about "forgetting" a $40k car loan...don't get me started on that one).

13 is a good bet if you want to repay but need to do it without more interest and need to be held accountable by someone other than yourself.

Or you can do what we are doing...self-monitored debt consolidation. Of course, this also hinges on you setting up a budget and sticking to it, making sure you get those payments out when promised and keeping a tight check on the spending/credit reports. I used this site as a guide: Do it yourself: Debt consolidation, Settlement and Management A on BBB

The most important part is to pull those credit reports (all 3) and VALIDATE every single debt on there. There were a few listed on ours that we knew were paid or didn't owe...validation and a request to remove incorrect information zipped those puppies right on off the reports quickly.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

This is what a debt is to me. An agreement a contract to repay, but more it is giving MY WORD that I will pay it back. If there is no way to keep life and limb intact and pay, then I understand why one would file. For those who truly want to honor that debt, there is no reason that a person when able could not pay there debt after bankruptcy. I wonder if anyone who says they wanted to pay their debt, did this? Or does the lack of a legal obligation remove that desire to honor the contract?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I have a question for all those that are putting bankruptcy (ch 7) down.

If you are doing right, but the hubby/wife enter into business deals and they go down, and the businesses go down? And then you bankrupt due to the possibility of their bad stuff coming back on you.... 

or, someone is working and expecting a pay check, and has a very good credit rating, payment history, etc - but the company goes flop and that pay check just stops - sure you can go on for awhile, but in this economy and not readily available jobs. There is only so far savings would go, even selling most everything you can, or hocking what jewelry you may have to keep the electricity on or some cheap food on the table - 

See there are situations that are beyond the control of someone who has met the promise to pay, but as illinoisguy pointed out - someone else goes bankrupt or such and it can throw you into that situation also.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Chapter 7 eligibility is based on income. If you are over median income (which is IRS figure for your locale and size of your family), then you have to look at Chapter 13. You might still qualify for a Chapter 7 if after completing the paperwork it shows "no abuse". You can file every 8 years.

The moral implications aside bankruptcy code is part of USA law therefore legal.

I've filed 100's of bankruptcies and I've NEVER had a client take it lightly. Almost without fail its a matter of great stress and tears. Often bankruptcy is literally forced on people due to judgments and wage garnishments. 

Creditors refuse to work with people to resolve the debt. Credit card companies will tell you they can't help you until you're 3 months behind in payments and when you're 3 months behind they tell you they can't help you until you're payments are caught up. The game playing is evil.

I have a lot of clients who do their absolute best to repay their local creditors especially small businesses they've dealt with for years. 

A common cause for bankruptcy is indeed often medical. Even if debt is primarily credit cards it can be because credit cards were used to pay medical bills or for living expenses while income went to medical bills. If a spouse is ill, the other spouse often has to take days or even months off work to care for that spouse so both incomes are lost or if its a child, parents are off work to be with the child so you have a double issue of reduced income and accumulating medical bills. If your annual income is $35,000 and you have a typical family of 4, how can you ever pay $500,000 in medical bills? 

Divorce is another common reason because going from two incomes in one household to two households with one income each is never a good trip. Factor in child support and the payer is usually unable to support himself or herself. The party receiving child support typically pays 100% of it for child care.

Death of a spouse -- that one is obvious. You lose the spouse's income and have the final expenses.

Loss of job and inability to find another. If you're over 50 finding another job is virtually impossible. Finding a job that pays well is very difficult for anyone at present. Unemployment eventually runs out.

Business failure. Again obvious. Most small business owners have given personal guarantees for business debt so bankruptcy becomes their only option. And I often see business owners who have run up huge personal debt on credit cards with 100% going to try and keep the business going.

I think it is a big mistake to liquidate retirement accounts to avoid bankruptcy especially if you are 50 or older. If you're 30 it might make sense, but even then you need to look at how you are going to survive going forward. The same would apply to other assets. To get the benefit of bankruptcy you need to look beyond bankruptcy to be sure you will not fall right back into debt. Bankruptcy is rather futile if it is not going to pave the way to a better future.


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

Before considering bankruptcy...can you stick with a budget? Since you said stupid debt I'm guessing it is mainly credit card stuff for extra stuff. If you can't stick to a budget then bankruptcy really won't help you anyway. Credit ratings are a tool used by insurance companies and employers. So bankruptcy can affect your monthly expenses as well as job opportunities. Check the state laws to know what limits they have placed on companies for using the credit information.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

"Legal" is not synonymous with "moral".

http://presys.com/~ekklesia/lvl.htm


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Since 2005 part of bankruptcy is pre-bankruptcy counseling and a two-hour post-bankruptcy debtor education class.


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## Oma2three (May 5, 2012)

I am thinking if a person get's into so deep (debt)becauce of spending foolishly and just not caring about budgeting and just not acting responsibly with money ,then it's wrong to file bankruptcy.To me that is cheating honest people who in good faith gave their products or services to you.Now if it is for medical reasons that is diffrent but one should still make an efford to repay to the best of our ability.Just an answer to your question


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Ann-NWIowa said:


> Since 2005 part of bankruptcy is pre-bankruptcy counseling and a two-hour post-bankruptcy debtor education class.


I sure hope that isn't a curriculum package designed and offered by the government.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I filed for bankruptcy about 8 years ago. I didn't want to do it, but realistically I didn't have much choice.

The circumstances of debt accumulation weren't normal. I had been in the Navy for 13 years. My then-wife had full power of attorney over my finances and used it to acquire credit cards without my knowledge. When we divorced, I discovered that I had 13 credit cards in my name, all of which were maxxed out to around 60 grand

Like any responsible adult, I thought of debt as a moral obligation. For the first three years after my divorce, I lived like a monk, putting every extra penny I had toward paying down that debt. After three years, I was still 59 grand in debt - I was making absolutely zero progress. I called one of those debt consolidation companies, and they advised bankruptcy. So I did it, and honestly I have no regrets.

Post-bankruptcy: I lived within my means. I very systematically and scientifically set about to rebuild my credit score. I bough a car, and paid it off. As soon as I was able, I bought a house. I got a credit card, kept a small balance on it, and made double payments on it.

Today, I am debt-free except for my mortgage, and I expect that to be paid off very early. I will not willingly take on any debt for anything short of a lifethreatening emergency. As far as I'm concerned, debt is slavery.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

The education classes are by private providers. The content has to be approved by the U.S. Trustee's office. Dave Ramsey is one provider. Debtors have to pay for their class and have to take the class in order to get their discharge.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ladies and Gentlemen!
First, thank you so very much for taking the time to share with me your thoughts, opinions and experiences.

Deep in my soul, I personally feel that filing bankruptcy would be wrong. 
I felt that nudge, but also the nudge to get out of debt, wipe the slate clean once and for all....by filing bankruptcy. 
I came here seeking input...and ya'all delivered. Thank you so much.

We do not have any out of control medical bills. 
It's all stupid cc debt. We used them. 
We enjoyed whatever it was that we spent on them.....and now I owe the creditor. 
I especially thank those who have been bankrupted UPON.......as that shows the other side of the coin.

I understand Biblical principals, and the consequences of not following them!! 
I do not want to be in debt anymore. That is not what The Lord wishes for His Children.
However, I do not want to 'steal' from those who trusted me with the cc, by filing and not paying them back.

I have not got to the bankruptcy part in Dave Ramsey yet. 
I have not been able to focus on the program for a couple weeks because my back is so jacked up...and life. Whew.

This is one of the MOST helpful threads I have participated in, in a long time.
Thank you everyone for your input. It was very very helpful!!


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

Buffy in Dallas said:


> *There is nothing wrong with declaring bankruptcy once if you get in over your head due to unforeseen circumstances or even just stupidity IF you learn your lesson and don't ever get in over your head again. (not counting illness or injury) *


As long as you actually go back and pay those debts that were discharged. Otherwise you are screwing innocent people out of THEIR money.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Common Tator said:


> As long as you actually go back and pay those debts that were discharged. Otherwise you are screwing innocent people out of THEIR money.


When the corporations do that and go back to honor their pension agreements and their wage agreements before they declared bankruptcy, then so should the peons. Until that time why should the corporations get a free pass. If the corporation doesnt have money to pay, shouldnt the corporate CEO and board of directors dip into their own pockets? Why should they get to hide behind not only limited corporate owner liability laws, but bankruptcy also? Arent corporations now people too?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I understand Biblical principals, and the consequences of not following them!!


Doesnt the bible command that all debt be forgiven every 7 years or something like that? When the holders of debt follow the biblical suggestions, then and only then should the people with the debt follow them.

One sided situations never work out well.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Gee the old everybody else is doing it agrument.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

It has a trickle down effect....corporations will pass the buck to the low man and so on....

5 contractors stiffed the supply company for more than$25k in a 3 month time frame....that's part of the reason my husband lost his job....the said contractors still have nicer houses and vehicles than we do....after bankruptcy...and their kids have all the gadgets and some are even collecting welfare...as responsible money users we get no welfare because we lived within our means and bought life ins and saved a few pennies for retirement....its an odd picture if you think about it...
I dont want welfare... but I also dont want people getting it and having a higher standard of living than I have either...CC debt-->bankruptcy is the equivalent of living a lie....no matter how big or small you are...

I wanted horses and all the bling to go with them....horses are a money drain...I settled for the lowly yet productive goat....I told my kids no and not to ask when they "wanted" shiny and new....I made them use their own real money to buy their own frivolous toys...


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

machinistmike said:


> Hospital debt was one of the easiest debts I have ever had to work with. I called every doctors's office I owed every week and talked to them. I worked out payment plans for $10-$20/month each for all of them. They all eventually wrote my debt off but they only did it because I was in contact with them constantly and showed I had intent to pay them back. If you ignore them they will turn your debt over to collection..


I think its now standard practice to refuse monthly payments of $10 on a $400,000.00 debt and just turn it over to collection agency. They dont want to wait 3334 years to collect, they believe you wont try to live that long to pay them back and will cop out and die around 90 leaving them to hold the bag. If you have nothing, then the collection agency can do nothing but threaten you and worry you to death. 

And once you do get bankruptcy, if you are moral (and stupid) and start making even tiny payments, they can once again come after you legally for whole amount. If you go to bankruptcy, DONT deal with the person holding the debt, just follow the order of the court. Most likely the court will appoint somebody to act as intermediary and collect any payments and transmit those payments to the debt holder if any payments are to be made. Most bankruptcy doesnt give you a free out, usually you have to pay something on the debt that the court decides you can afford. Those laws are there for a reason, use them. Course if you win the mega lottery and have money to burn, by all means settle your debts in full.

Remember the wisdom of the ages says "neither a borrower, NOR A LENDER BE". Dont lend money and nobody can stiff you, simple as that. People lend money cause they are greedy, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Greed has its risks. Just a fact of life. Merchants that sell on easy payment plan are trading off the risk they get stiffed vs MORE SALES. Nobody forces any merchant to sell on payments. ANY MERCHANT CAN HAVE A CASH ONLY POLICY. You want what he has you pony up all the cash all upfront. Dont have the cash, you can either wait or borrow from a professional money lender who understands the risk and has couple guys with knuckles dragging on ground to go collect or break your legs or rape your son.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

HermitJohn said:


> When the corporations do that and go back to honor their pension agreements and their wage agreements before they declared bankruptcy, then so should the peons. Until that time why should the corporations get a free pass. If the corporation doesnt have money to pay, shouldnt the corporate CEO and board of directors dip into their own pockets? Why should they get to hide behind not only limited corporate owner liability laws, but bankruptcy also? Arent corporations now people too?


Oh, you invoked the EEEEEEEEEVVVVVIIIIILLLL Corporations!

That changes everything! 

HermitJohn says it is OK to screw a small businessman who is trying to feed his family and never got a pension, because EEEEVVVIIIILL corporations can't honor pension agreements.

So go ahead and file, and don't give a thought to those who get hurt.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> Bankrupcty is absolutely out of the question for anyone who would follow either Messianic teachings or those of the Old Testament.
> 
> There are warnings and references innumerable about debt and coveting ones neighbor's goods.


Yes, but also in the Bible is that all debt must be wiped out every 7th year.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Regardless, that system does not apply tOday. Do you still sacrifice live animals?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> Could someone explain to me what is moral about telling one's creditors, "So long, suckers.....and thanks for trusting me with the loan," ?
> 
> If one were to go to each creditor, begging forgiveness after explaining the situation, then there may be hope of a "righteous" remedy.
> 
> As for "our money system", no one forces any of us into personal debt, and to hide behind the immoral financial and legal loophole system is, literally, to call upon and hide behind another god (other gods) for your deliverance.


Unfortunately you're not dealing with Sam the local banker or Tom the local butcher anymore. 

When you call you're dealing with Jinder who is working in a call center in India for the MegaBig Corporation which decided to give credit to anyone who asked even to the point changing the application to be able to give the suckers even more credit than they deserved. Because the more borrowers they had, the bigger the bigshots bonuses were. Jinder has no authority to do anything about reducing your debt, but he can read in something similar to English from a script they gave him during his short training class.

And when you do file bankruptcy Uncle Sam allows the MegaBig Corporation to write off 100% of the debt you owed them, without ever affecting those bonuses already given to the executives, because bad debt is 'just a part of doing business'


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

bruce2288 said:


> Gee the old everybody else is doing it agrument.


Dont want to be stiffed by a deadbeat, its simple, dont loan money, have a cash on barrelhead only policy. Jeesh, its simple! 

As to evil of bankruptcy, its based on this:



> Deuteronomy Chapter 15 &#1491;&#1468;&#1456;&#1489;&#1464;&#1512;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501;&#1488; &#1502;&#1460;&#1511;&#1468;&#1461;&#1509; &#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1489;&#1463;&#1506;-&#1513;&#1473;&#1464;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501;, &#1514;&#1468;&#1463;&#1506;&#1458;&#1513;&#1474;&#1462;&#1492; &#1513;&#1473;&#1456;&#1502;&#1460;&#1496;&#1468;&#1464;&#1492;. 1 At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release.
> &#1489; &#1493;&#1456;&#1494;&#1462;&#1492;, &#1491;&#1468;&#1456;&#1489;&#1463;&#1512; &#1492;&#1463;&#1513;&#1468;&#1473;&#1456;&#1502;&#1460;&#1496;&#1468;&#1464;&#1492;--&#1513;&#1473;&#1464;&#1502;&#1493;&#1465;&#1496; &#1499;&#1468;&#1464;&#1500;-&#1489;&#1468;&#1463;&#1506;&#1463;&#1500; &#1502;&#1463;&#1513;&#1468;&#1473;&#1461;&#1492; &#1497;&#1464;&#1491;&#1493;&#1465;, &#1488;&#1458;&#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1512; &#1497;&#1463;&#1513;&#1468;&#1473;&#1462;&#1492; &#1489;&#1468;&#1456;&#1512;&#1461;&#1506;&#1461;&#1492;&#1493;&#1468;: &#1500;&#1465;&#1488;-&#1497;&#1460;&#1490;&#1468;&#1465;&#1513;&#1474; &#1488;&#1462;&#1514;-&#1512;&#1461;&#1506;&#1461;&#1492;&#1493;&#1468; &#1493;&#1456;&#1488;&#1462;&#1514;-&#1488;&#1464;&#1495;&#1460;&#1497;&#1493;, &#1499;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497;-&#1511;&#1464;&#1512;&#1464;&#1488; &#1513;&#1473;&#1456;&#1502;&#1460;&#1496;&#1468;&#1464;&#1492; &#1500;&#1463;&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492;. 2 And this is the manner of the release: every creditor shall release that which he hath lent unto his neighbour; he shall not exact it of his neighbour and his brother; because the LORD'S release hath been proclaimed.
> &#1490; &#1488;&#1462;&#1514;-&#1492;&#1463;&#1504;&#1468;&#1464;&#1499;&#1456;&#1512;&#1460;&#1497;, &#1514;&#1468;&#1460;&#1490;&#1468;&#1465;&#1513;&#1474;; &#1493;&#1463;&#1488;&#1458;&#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1512; &#1497;&#1460;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1462;&#1492; &#1500;&#1456;&#1498;&#1464; &#1488;&#1462;&#1514;-&#1488;&#1464;&#1495;&#1460;&#1497;&#1498;&#1464;, &#1514;&#1468;&#1463;&#1513;&#1473;&#1456;&#1502;&#1461;&#1496; &#1497;&#1464;&#1491;&#1462;&#1498;&#1464;. 3 Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it; but whatsoever of thine is with thy brother thy hand shall release.
> &#1491; &#1488;&#1462;&#1508;&#1462;&#1505;, &#1499;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497; &#1500;&#1465;&#1488; &#1497;&#1460;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1462;&#1492;-&#1489;&#1468;&#1456;&#1498;&#1464; &#1488;&#1462;&#1489;&#1456;&#1497;&#1493;&#1465;&#1503;: &#1499;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497;-&#1489;&#1464;&#1512;&#1461;&#1498;&#1456; &#1497;&#1456;&#1489;&#1464;&#1512;&#1462;&#1499;&#1456;&#1498;&#1464;, &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492;, &#1489;&#1468;&#1464;&#1488;&#1464;&#1512;&#1462;&#1509;, &#1488;&#1458;&#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1512; &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492; &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1462;&#1497;&#1498;&#1464; &#1504;&#1465;&#1514;&#1461;&#1503;-&#1500;&#1456;&#1498;&#1464; &#1504;&#1463;&#1495;&#1458;&#1500;&#1464;&#1492; &#1500;&#1456;&#1512;&#1460;&#1513;&#1473;&#1456;&#1514;&#1468;&#1464;&#1492;&#1468;. 4 Howbeit there shall be no needy among you--for the LORD will surely bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it--
> ...


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Common Tator said:


> Oh, you invoked the EEEEEEEEEVVVVVIIIIILLLL Corporations!
> 
> That changes everything!
> 
> ...


Jeesh, i am just saying whats fit for the goose is fit for the gander. You want to eliminate all bankruptcy law, eliminate them for everybody, not just the peon consumer. Go after stockholders and CEO's and boards of directors PERSONAL WEALTH to pay the corporations debts. What if the corporation screws the "little buisinessman"?? I guess thats ok by you???? Course you are saying corporations are the salt of the earth and would never do that...... but still fair is fair dont you think? Shouldnt CEO's and stockholders feel personally responsible for corporate debt???

And again its easy to avoid people stiffing you, dont loan them money, greed makes you loan money in order to sell more stuff or more services. Dont be greedy, that simple. Sell only to those that can afford to pay cash on the barrelhead. They pay, you either perform the service or hand over the goods that you are selling, everybody is happy. That simple!!!!!!!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

illinoisguy said:


> Regardless, that system does not apply tOday. Do you still sacrifice live animals?


Since I'm a homesteader, I guess you could say I do.
They sure do taste good too.

:nana:


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I see people and hear so many who come down with diseases and end up with huge unpayable medical bills. Having or not having insurance really doesn't make a difference too much other than their early bills are paid with insurance, but they all end up in huge unpayable debt. It is especially bad for people with ill children. I would never look down on them for filing bankruptcy in order to save what cash they have to care for their children. One of our friends had a son born at 21wks, and ended up with hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical bills. Their insurance stopped paying at a certain point and it was left to them. She says it so well, "walk a mile in our shoes". Were they supposed to just stop caring for their child, and let him die because they didn't have enough cash? People are worth more than money. In my mind, it is that simple. God set forth jubilee. There is no shame in it.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Just for the record, my earlier response against filing bankruptcy was directed to the OP's question. I won't judge those of you who have been in a position where you came to the conclusion that you had no choice but bankruptcy. But for the OP, she was not in such a position and I'm glad that she realizes that.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

If debt is discharged in bankruptcy the creditor cannot collect it. The debtor can voluntarily pay the debt but the creditor cannot take any action without being in violation of the provisions of the bankruptcy discharge. If they attempt to collect a discharged debt they can be subject to very expensive sanctions.

For those who would eliminate bankruptcy I wonder what you believe the alternative would be. Debtor's prison? Whatever the reason for the debt, if a person cannot pay gets sued and wages and/or bank accounts are garnished so they can't live its not good. I know of several people who committed suicide due to pressure from creditors. 

One reform I would like to see is the companies who issue credit being more responsible about who they give credit to. In my mind its criminal to give credit to someone who cannot afford repayments. There are a lot of predatory lenders the worst of which are the payday loans or car title loans but credit cards aren't far behind. What reasonable business would issue a credit card to a person with only social security income especially if they already owe someone? Yet I have had many senior citizens file bankruptcy with numerous credit cards. They are wrong to take the cards and use them but the issuers are equally wrong in giving credit.

A lot of people believe if they are paying a small amount each month they cannot be sued. Unfortunately, I have numerous clients who have been sued by doctors, hospitals and other medical providers because they could not pay enough each month. When I had a hospital bill I was told if it wasn't paid in full within 12 months it would go to collections. Around here the medical providers themselves seldom sue, its always the collection agent. The result is the same but the medical provider keeps their name off the court docket.

I agree with the person who said if you are a debtor you are a slave. I bought my way out of slavery in 3/09 when I paid off my mortgage. I use credit cards but I pay 100% of the balance each month so pay no interest or other charges. I find it convenient to shop for a whole month and then make one payment. The key is to be sure to have a budget and stick to it. Never charge more than you have the money to pay. Dh and I made it a rule that the first month we could not pay 100% we had to cut up the card. 

People need to adjust their attitudes towards credit. I'm constantly hearing people say they keep a credit card for emergencies. Excuse me, a credit card is not an emergency fund it is DEBT. I think any emergency likely would be made worse by adding DEBT.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

You know, when I became an adult (back in the dark ages) I was 22 or 23 before I could get a credit card - Sears finally gave me one with a $300 limit. About a year later I got a Dayton's (Target) card with a $500 limit, then about a year later I got an oil company card. Then when I was about 26 or 27 I finally got a Visa -- You see; back then you have to prove you were worthy of Credit and that you didn't really need it, before companies would give you a credit card. 

Now they pass them out like candy - the lenders need to take some of the blame themselves for their greed, its not all on the person.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Kind of like blaming the hot stove for burning you.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

i did it, it was my last choice. i lost my house, my credit and a lot else including my pride. if i had to do it again in the same circumstances? yeah i would i had no choice either that or end up in the same state or worst imposed by the courts, it's been a long haul back and i couldn't have done it with out help from family (they offered i wouldn't have asked, the only time i have asked for help was for my kid). it's been rough, don't let anyone tell you its easy, but for the benefit of a "fresh" start and the chance to rebuild your credit and good name it is one path, my last choice but one that had to be trod.


hope this helps
dean


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

The stove burns a lot of people who do not understand budgeting. I had a 40+ lady who wasn't terribly bright (very nice just not too bright) say she didn't know how to budget so I showed her how to make a spending and savings plan. We worked it until it balanced. She came back later very upset because it wasn't working. The problem was she didn't quit spending when she reach the amount budgeted. I explained that it would probably be a good idea to put her food money in an envelope and when the envelope is empty she's done until next payday. She needed to use the envelope system because she needed the visual to comprehend. There are also a lot of very smart people who are totally ignorant when it comes to personal finances.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Ann-NWIowa said:


> The stove burns a lot of people who do not understand budgeting. I had a 40+ lady who wasn't terribly bright (very nice just not too bright) say she didn't know how to budget so I showed her how to make a spending and savings plan. We worked it until it balanced. She came back later very upset because it wasn't working. The problem was she didn't quit spending when she reach the amount budgeted. I explained that it would probably be a good idea to put her food money in an envelope and when the envelope is empty she's done until next payday. She needed to use the envelope system because she needed the visual to comprehend. There are also a lot of very smart people who are totally ignorant when it comes to personal finances.


What a classic example of the wholesale failure of the public education system.
We now have a nation comprised largely of adult children.

I suppose that reality offers long term job security for those who make a career of holding these compromised individual's hands, from cradle to grave.

This situation/reality is not sustainable. It should not be encouraged, defended nor perpetuated. The system is designed to be enticing. The system is designed to promote gluttony. Of course the "corporations" can write off all such "losses". It's all paper and unbacked electronic broken promises anyway. But none of that changes the fact; _the real goods were received and consumed by the debtor........_

Isaiah 5:20 _Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!_


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Forerunner wrote: "Could someone explain to me what is moral about telling one's creditors, "So long, suckers.....and thanks for trusting me with the loan?"

I'll tell ya. My wife and I did everything the financial experts recommended for 13 years of marriage. We saved, we had kid's college funds, no CC debt, put away for retirement and lived within our means. Our mortgage was through Countrywide to whom the broker sold it. Countrywide was the biggest offender and first to go bankrupt in the sub-prime melt down. Because of all the idiot banks lending too much, the idiot government telling them to and the idiot people borrowing too much, the economy crashed. The company I had worked for, for 9 years, an auto supplier, laid off 3/4 of the workforce because folks quit buying cars. I lost my job. Then the idiot government said help is on the way (a lie) for the mess we created. Countrywide said "we'd like to help, but not so much" even though they did the most damage. They even called me and lied saying they were calling about one of Obama's rescue programs, but they were just trolling for re-fi's. When they found out they helped in me losing work they quit trolling. 
I spoke with them many times asking if there was anything we could do---no! I asked if they felt any moral(note the word Forerunner) obligation for their part in the meltdown---no! So we consulted a lawyer and walked away! We paid cash for twice the house on 5 times the land. Do I regret it---yes! I regret I didn't do it sooner! The businesses dump their debt on us all the time. The government is PILING debt on us. This country is going down. I wish it would hurry up and happen already. We will rebuild; hopefully wiser for the experience, but its going down! 
You should file bankruptcy if thats whats best for you and use the time and money to prepare for the worst.

End Rant!


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

"You see; back then you have to prove you were worthy of Credit and that you didn't really need it, before companies would give you a credit card." 

That was before the government told them they would prosecute them for discrimination if the didn't lend to bad risks.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Choose other options first before filing bankruptcy. I filed 12 years ago and wished I never did. The crediters had me so scared that I thought filing bankruptcy was my only option. But I know better now! I could have gotten by, by just sending each creditor $5 a month. Plus any extra if I could afford it. Then when things get better, start making full payments. But call your creditors and work things out. My wife, HMmm! EX-WIFE! got behind on one of her credit cards a couple of years ago and after a good talk with them, they put a stop on her being able to use the card and let her make a minumum payment of just $10 a month till she could find her a new job. Once she got a job and started making regular payments, she got her card reinstated.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Choose other options first before filing bankruptcy. I filed 12 years ago and wished I never did. The crediters had me so scared that I thought filing bankruptcy was my only option. But I know better now! I could have gotten by, by just sending each creditor $5 a month. Plus any extra if I could afford it. Then when things get better, start making full payments. But call your creditors and work things out. My wife, HMmm! EX-WIFE! got behind on one of her credit cards a couple of years ago and after a good talk with them, they put a stop on her being able to use the card and let her make a minumum payment of just $10 a month till she could find her a new job. Once she got a job and started making regular payments, she got her card reinstated.


I'm glad that worked out for you that way, but it wasn't working that way for me at all. My creditors expected minimum payments much higher than 5 or 10 bucks a month, or interest and penalties continued to accrue, so that the amount of debt continued to grow. That was the straw that finally broke the camel's back for me: despite pouring every cent I had into doing the right thing, the amount of debt continued to grow. My creditors were merciless.

Honestly, I don't regret filing bankruptcy for a second. I've suffered no significant ill effects from having done so either. As I said in my earlier post, I set about to systematically and methodically rebuild my credit score almost immediately after my judgement. Ironically, many of the same companies that I had discharged on were perfectly willing to issue me a new credit card before the ink was even dry. Personally, I refuse to do business with any of them ever again.

The whole experience changed the way I saw the world. I came out of the bankruptcy simply determined never to be in debt again. I rebuilt my credit score to the point that I was able to buy a house with a conventional mortgage (not one of those 'special' liar loans) and a small downpayment exactly two years to the day after my bankruptcy, which made me rather cynical about the whole credit rating scheme and was the major factor in my becoming a prepper and a luddite.

My view of the world differs significantly from that of my peers, and from many on this board. I understand that I'm not normal in the way I see things, but there are a few things I think are worth sharing, even at the expense of being flamed:

1. Most of us were brought up to think of debt as a moral obligation. In the world of our ancestors, this was essentially true. One only acquired debt by actively seeking it out. Lenders had to be convinced to loan you money, and loans couldn't be acquired without a great deal of effort on the part of the borrower. In that world, I would have never filed for bankruptcy.

2. Debt is an industry. Debt is a commodity that is bought, sold, traded, and marketed. Debt is the greatest American Industry in the late 20th and the early 21st century. Debt is the cornerstone of modern American captialism. Without debt, there would be no American economy as we know it, and I'm not talking about the federal deficit - I mean consumer debt. The real reason that our economy hasn't recovered is that the American consumer either can't or won't assume more debt.

In a very real and practical way, to live debt free is to contrary to American capitalism. It is a real and literal act of subversion.

The reason for this is cash flow. You get a paycheck, and people want it. They don't just want you to buy something, they want a piece of your paycheck in perpetuity. Debt is how they get that. Living debt free, you can choose to spend or not spend your paycheck. Debt means that you have to give them a piece whether you want to or not. No paycheck is too small for the industry to want a piece of, either.

3. Credit ratings are part of the debt industry. Your credit rating is a product to be sold and marketed just as much as the debt the industry wants to sell you. Look at the number of commercials on TV trying to sell you access to your credit score: they will give you a free credit report - once, but they're really trying to sell you regular access - and credit management advice. They want a regular piece of your paycheck to advise you on how to lose the rest of your paycheck.

4. The best minds in America are devoted to selling and marketing debt. That's what all those business, marketing, and finance degrees are for. The richest people in America are the people who are most successful at securing as much of the American paycheck in perpetuity as possible.

5. To some degree, this would be excusable if it was an exchange of real value for real value. It started out that way, but has evolved far away from that. Even when you think you're getting something for your money, very often you're really not getting much of anything, if anything at all.

Take cellphones for example. When most of us were kids, the idea of being able to get a phone call in your car was science fiction. Now, it's thought of as a necessity. You can get the phone itself for nothing or next to nothing, so long as you promise them a chunk of your pay check for a year or two. The thing is, without giving them that chunk of your paycheck, the phone itself is worthless. Still, they'll sell you a cellphone for hundreds of dollars, but even that phone is worthless if you don't also promise them a chunk of your paycheck. They've convinced us that a cell phone is essential now - it's a matter of safety, even, and you never know when you'll be stuck somewhere, or someone will really need to get in touch with you "right now". But how often does that actually happen, when you couldn't actually get by with a payphone and an answering machine? How many true emergencies actually pop up in a single lifetime? How did we ever survive or manage before cell phones?

ipads, iphones, etc are another good example. You buy a device that is worthless unless you keep pouring money into it: you need apps. You need MP3's, etc. But what are you actually buying? What are they actually selling? Mostly the illusion that you're 'connected', 'current', and 'in touch'.



All of it is a trap. Be subversive and don't take the bait. If you already have, get free of it, even if you have to gnaw your own leg off.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral. Dave Ramsey's program works.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

bourbonred said:


> Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral. Dave Ramsey's program works.


I am glad to hear that!!
I need to dig in and just DO IT.
It's gonna be scary......but......if it REALLY works, it's gonna be worth it!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> What a classic example of the wholesale failure of the public education system.



Parents have no responsibility to teach their children??


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> Parents have no responsibility to teach their children??


They surely do......and they consider sending them off to public school as taking that responsibility, in full.

Trouble is, today's parents, and grandparents, have all been tainted by what boils down to nothing less than indoctrination. 
The mentality is that we can give in to our wants with abandon, and the system, or some imaginary safety net, will catch us when we fall.

That hot wood stove is a sure teacher, if we let it do it's work.

"The ultimate consequence of protecting men from the results of their own folly is to fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer



All of that said, I recognize that I have friends involved in this thread, whom I may well have offended. I apologize for the offense, but it is a lack of hard truth spoken in due time that has landed the best of people in this mess.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I say, if you are able to make payments, then do so. If you were in a similar position to what I was, litterally I would be living on the street if I had not. I had perfect credit before I got unexpectedly sick. I was 2 weeks away from having health insurance. I was making minimum wage as I had just moved and was trying to find jobs. I did not have extras. I did not have tv, or a cell phone, or a car payment (the car had been paid off) I had a student loan. I had one store credit card and I always paid it off the day I used it as I used to work for that store and used it to get the deals where you got more % off if you bought on the card. Then I got sick, got sent to ER 3 times before they admited me for good....for weeks. Wither surgeries and even dying once. My and my fiance tried our best to pay the bills....but when you can't work at the moment, and you have about 50 bills coming in from tests, drs you never even saw, etc etc, then what pay my then finance was bringing it was going to all that, even if it was only 5 bucks a bill...and no, the hospital was NOT willing to work with us on the bills.

We were litterally starving as we could not afford food AT ALL. We were eatting out of peoples garbage we got so hungry. I am not kidding about this. It's not something I am proud of. After months of no electricity, no water, no food, trying to sell the house, etc... (there was no mortgage, it was bought and paid for) what is someone supposed to do?!

Bankruptsy was the ONLY way.
So before some of you judgey people judge this person for considering bankruptsy, maybe you should walk a few miles in her shoes.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> Parents have no responsibility to teach their children??


Parents have been strongly encouraged to let the government raise their children since public schooling began. Most people choose to take the easy way out. It's human nature.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> Kind of like blaming the hot stove for burning you.


If you let 4 year old's use a stove then whose to blame?
They're giving credit cards to high school students for gosh sakes!
Sorry but 99.9% of High School students are dumb as dirt about credit and real life(and many other things too).


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> If you let 4 year old's use a stove then whose to blame?
> They're giving credit cards to high school students for gosh sakes!
> Sorry but 99.9% of High School students are dumb as dirt about credit and real life(and many other things too).


I thought one must be at least 18 to get a credit card. Maybe the rule has changed.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> They surely do......and they consider sending them off to public school as taking that responsibility, in full.
> 
> Trouble is, today's parents, and grandparents, have all been tainted by what boils down to nothing less than indoctrination.
> The mentality is that we can give in to our wants with abandon, and the system, or some imaginary safety net, will catch us when we fall.
> ...


 Amen brother preach on Or lack of heeding the truth .


Some say wisdom comes with age well i have to get older or die i don't have to get smarter . Fellow spotted a new truck as i was crossing a parking lot an ask if it was mine . I said no mine is the payed for one over there . 

I don't want a new auto if you are passing them out it would be a burden to me . I would worry of parking and getting scratched ,personal property taxes and all manner of crap .:grumble:

So wisdom has taught me i need food and a roof most other things are wants .If my neighbors haven't been impressed by now i an't got a prayer impressing them no way . :happy:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I was not taught by word or example the right way to handle money by my parents.
I was not taught by word or class in school, the right way to handle money by teachers.

I did what my parents did.
That was the example, set before me.

As an adult, who is responsible for my choices, and the consequences of those choices, I have come to the conclusion that handling money the way "I have always done it" is not only wrong, but it is destructive.

At some point, a human being has to stop blaming.
One day little johnny or jane leaves home.
One day little johnny or jane graduates from school.
One of these days, little johnny or jane needs to OWN their choices.

Today is that day for me.
I have a very gifted son, who several hockey teams WANT him to play for them, and I CAN'T AFFORD TO SEND HIM.
Why?
Not because my parents did it.
Not because the school did it.
No.
I DID IT.
I AM THE STUPID arce that didn't open a 529 and put money in it every week for the last 20+ years. 
I AM responsible for being a friggin' idiot with credit cards. 
I AM responsible AND I AM reaping the consequences of the stupid folly I sowed by not saving.
Me. I am responsible.
I know it kills my son inside that he will have to go to a local community college, and not play hockey. 
It's what he's worked for all his life...

Yeah, at some point, we have to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and just EAT IT.
Well, let me tell you.....it tastes like carp. 
So if you have kids, open a 529 today.
Don't wizz away 50.00 for decorations for a birthday party they will forget about in 8 months.
Don't worry if they think you are uncool now.
TRUST ME......they will thank you when it's time to go to college.

I own it. This is my mess.
And with God's Strength and Grace, I will get out of it.
But my kids now have to feel the consequences of MY poor choices.
That sucks. A lot.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

talk to the schools that have the hockey teams, see if there is a way he can work some while in school and get scholarships. Sometimes it can help. Or maybe they know of someone who would sponsor him.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

What Angie said! If they are wanting him see what they will do to get him! If he has to do some work while in school that's ok too! Don't give up!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

It's mid July. Most schools are done admitting students. 
They are full. Full of kids that could afford it / or could borrow it.

Some have come off of scholarship dollars.....and it's been amazing, and I am so grateful for it. But it's not enough. It sucks. 
It's heart breaking.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Laura -- you've learned so the lesson isn't wasted. Your son will learn that life has disappointments. Hopefully he'll also be challenged to find answers and solutions. 

Personally I do not believe we "owe" our children college educations. Its a blessing if parents can afford to send kids to college or even help out with college expenses, but it should not be something kids expect as their right. 

My parents helped me by paying my first month's rent on an apartment $50 -- and I was only 17. I'd planned to live at home and save money for a year before I got married but they moved me out. I was lucky to get the $50!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And Laura - if your son is that good in hockey - I have a solution for you.

Help him get himself into that college he wants, and then make sure there is a local ice rink and teach private hockey lessons. Private figure skating lessons can be about $25 to $30 for a 15 minute lesson - he could do the same.

I never planned on paying for my girls college as I knew I could not afford it; I always told them to plan on having a scholarship and told my ice skater it was a fantastic, flexible part time job.

Think on it, investigate it and let him try it.

Also, if he's taken the SAT/ACT and not satisfied with his score, have him take it again. My oldest took ACT until she got it over 29 which is a full tution scholarship for 4 years at a state college. (My other girl did a 32 on first try, but decided to get married and become a mom, rather than college).

Just some ideas to help him achieve HIS goals.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

For me I think it would take a lot of thought to decide.

I mean did the person have a good income and suddenly find themselves unemployed, too sick to work or disabled? Is a spouse filing after losing their spouse?

There are real reasons why, especially in this economy a person might file. 

As to the lenders, I feel if it is a tangible item, furniture, car or such they should get it back and be able to resell it. 

I have known folks who run up credit and file just as a manner of course. I feel that is wrong totally.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Ann-NWIowa Grate post :bow:

Me and son had the career talk a little before he was eleven ,he knew what he wanted to do . Now i had just traded 50% of a house at sell for 100% custody of him and just recovered from a logging accident .
The only sports he did was Karate as it went with his career choice he took no chances of an injury in any sports like football ect because one accident would put that career in jeopardy .Yea tough for that age i know . 
Now after school he stacked coolers and swept parking lots for his spending money or helped me in my second job :awh:

When he graduated high school he got his choice of college the one best in it's field for his plans . Moved out to the dorms worked closing shift at Mc Donald's and another job Sat & Sun . We helped what we could like a well used car and insurance . Yep he had a large student loan too . He also made some world Karate tournaments all on his own .

I told him i wish i could done more and he said if i had it might been so easy he would just goofed off and not took things seriously . Now when he drops by an sees some he grew up whit they ask how he did it . His answer is while you chased girls or a football i was in class or at work . 

His next goal was to have a million dollars saved before he is thirty five bet he an't far off . Only money he wastes is on dad .

So hang in there it can be done then he'll know how it was done . But is hockey going to make him a living .I know a few it does .:clap::clap:


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ways that my relatives have gone through college.
1. Night school
2. part time
3. one sibling works and pays school fees for another. When the graduate gets work he paid school fees for the next one. Etc.
4. Join the military first.
5. Living with relatives so a part -tiime income could all be used for school fees.
and, 6. Work 3 summer jobs so there is money for winter school fees.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

AngieM2 said:


> talk to the schools that have the hockey teams, see if there is a way he can work some while in school and get scholarships. Sometimes it can help. Or maybe they know of someone who would sponsor him.


We applied yesterday (over nighted it so it's on admissions desk today) to a local university. The coach there has emailed my boy several times.
Yesterday the boy emailed the coach and told him he wants to play for the school.
Coach was thrilled.
Boy emails coach back and says 'ap will be on admissions desk tomorroow, anything you can do to get me accepted would be appreciated'.

It's all in God's Hands now.
I included everything the school needed, transcripts, ACT, SAT, letters of recommendation, everything!! Sent the fasfa to them earlier this year, so they have that too.

This school is only a couple hours from home vs the one in IA which is 9 hours from home.

I am praying God's Will be done. Whatever it may be. And that everyone in the family will accept, and not begrudgingly, whatever that Will is.
All prayers for this situation, are cherished.

ETA: Selling everything that I did not give birth to, and is not nailed down to pay off the debt.


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