# Anyone know anything about Olin Rollbond collectors???



## d.dumont (Jun 23, 2010)

Hello all,

I have an opportunity to get 6 Olin Rollbond collectors (free) they are 23"x 84" . orriginally installed by my father on a house he built in the late 70's. he added on to the house & removed them after about 8 yrs... I really can't find any info online about them thats newer than the late 70's... While the price is right, I would hate to use them only to find issues with them later... ANY input would be greatly appreciated...



Thanks,

Dan


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I'm assuming these are hot water units . . .???

Back then many many *companys* popped up out of the woodwork......

After a fast go around many many *companys* disappeared just as quickly.

If they are 'hot water' units . . .give them a good pressure test . . . .
Is the front . . .glass or plastic . .??


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## d.dumont (Jun 23, 2010)

They are hot water collectors. They were designed to go between 24 on center roof rafters... They are just collectors though. I was going to build a housing & my father still has the glass he used for the glazing. "rollbonding" was patented by Olin, essentially it is 2 sheets of copper with half a tube/waterway on each half, then bonded (I assume some type of welded) together.. they worked o.k. when he installed them. just wondering if anyone had any experience with them, apparently the made an aluminum version which did not fare so well... I think for the price I'm going to give them a shot... 


Thanks


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

If the glazing is glass I will assume that it is tempered. . . thats good.
Be very very careful handling it . . . .one little *thunk* and you've got a million pieces of glass.

I've read that there was a big difference in quality of the units that all those companys made. Tempered glass is 'the good stuff'.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

d.dumont said:


> They are hot water collectors. They were designed to go between 24 on center roof rafters... They are just collectors though. I was going to build a housing & my father still has the glass he used for the glazing. "rollbonding" was patented by Olin, essentially it is 2 sheets of copper with half a tube/waterway on each half, then bonded (I assume some type of welded) together.. they worked o.k. when he installed them. just wondering if anyone had any experience with them, apparently the made an aluminum version which did not fare so well... I think for the price I'm going to give them a shot...
> 
> 
> Thanks


Hi,
I had heard about the problems with the aluminum ones.

If the ones you have are copper, and they don't leak, I don't see any reason not to use them. To me, the design seems like an efficient one. I'd work out a way to pressure test them to a low pressure, and look for any signs of pin holes developing in the copper.

You can make your own absorber plates:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/CopperAlumCollector/CopperAlumCol.htm

These are about $5 per sqft in materials, and they take some time to make, so I'd say use the RollBond ones and save the work?

Would love to see a picture of these things.

Gary


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## d.dumont (Jun 23, 2010)

Gary, Your the way I found this site... I've been studying your site for close to a year, & gathering materials to build my system... I've got almost all the material to build My hotwater storage tank & collectors. I going to integrate the solar panels with an "add on" wood boiler to heat my storage tank... I've been planning this out for quite some time & in my head it's going to work great. time will tell. I'm taking your tank design, but using a steel angle iron frame instead of wood. going the full 4'x4'x8' so I can adjust tank volume (I'll start out w/500 gallons, if I can heat that I'll try more until I find max temp/storage volume). I'll post some pics soon.


Thanks,

Dan


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi Dan,
They used to make commercial versions of the plywood tank with the EPDM lining that used angle iron for frames -- so that should work fine. Be sure to use the tension tie across the top of the long side of the tank -- there is a whole lot of pressure on those long sides. Think in terms of turning the tank on its side, and parking a small car on top of it -- that's about the pressure it sees.

500 gallons is quite a bit of storage -- how much collector area are you thinking about?

Take lots of pictures! 

Gary


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## d.dumont (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm shooting for about 200 sq ft. I know thats on the low side, but with the "add on" wood boiler I think I can heat that much water... time will tell. I have hydronic radiant in floor heat thru out the house, plus at the very least "pre-heat" my dhw.. Its more of a wood boiler with "solar assist"... I have about 3 months to get it all done.... I'll post pics as I go.


Dan


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

d.dumont said:


> I'm shooting for about 200 sq ft. I know thats on the low side, but with the "add on" wood boiler I think I can heat that much water... time will tell. I have hydronic radiant in floor heat thru out the house, plus at the very least "pre-heat" my dhw.. Its more of a wood boiler with "solar assist"... I have about 3 months to get it all done.... I'll post pics as I go.
> 
> 
> Dan


Hi Dan,
200 sqft is certainly enough to make a good difference. I figure my 240 sqft is worth the equivalent of about 330 gallons of propane over a heating season. 
For solar space heating, about 2 gallons per sqft of collector seems to work out well. This is enough storage to hold a full sunny days worth of collected heat. Most homes leak enough heat overnight that by the next day the tank is pretty well down again and ready for more sun.
If you have other heat sources ( like the wood), then more storage could well be helpful.

Gary


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## Buztoo (Jul 5, 2010)

d.dumont said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have an opportunity to get 6 Olin Rollbond collectors (free) they are 23"x 84" . orriginally installed by my father on a house he built in the late 70's. he added on to the house & removed them after about 8 yrs... I really can't find any info online about them thats newer than the late 70's... While the price is right, I would hate to use them only to find issues with them later... ANY input would be greatly appreciated...
> 
> ...


Hi, Dan

The Olin Rollbond heat exchanger/absorber plate is absolutely and unequivocally THE most efficient flat-plate heat exchanger ever produced... ...and they'll never come up with anything that will match it in terms of btu/sq ft heat-exchange ability in any other flat-plate metal design.

In the early 80's, Olin Brass found it more profitable to dismantle their tremendously expensive production rollbond facilities in Alton, Illinois and convert that manufacturing space to much more profitable production of shell-cases for ammunition manufacture. (Olin is also "Western" ammunition)

In the late 70's, early 80's American Solar King used Olin Copper RollBond absorber plates in their SG-15 series Flat Plate Solar Collectors. In thirty years, no one's ever been able to touch Solar King's efficiency with a flat-plate collector in the mid-temp or high-temp range, and that performance gap grows as the conditions get less favorable (cold days or partly cloudy or cloudy days).

(Solar King, of course, used all the other things that every high performance collector uses, such as selective surfaces, "water-white" low-iron glass, superb insulation, etc. that will make that flat-plate collector many times as productive as anything with lessor technology and allow true high-performance factory-built collectors out-perform lower-tech collectors by 10 or 15 to 1 under difficult conditions... ...but the single thing that put the "King" in Solar King was the rollbond absorber.

The rollbond plates were horribly expensive to manufacture, which was what eventually killed the product; but nothing else could duplicate their ability to transfer heat.

The key to heat-transfer with any kind of liquid is wetted surface area, even flow across the surface, and the ability to prevent laminar flow inside the plate.

With the rollbond manufacturing process, they actually took two sheets of metal (at one time, they also made them out of aluminum and steel for other applications; many refrigerators in the 50's used rollbond backs instead of traditional finned coils, since they were more efficient and weren't susceptible to clogging with dust and dirt)... those two sheets of metal were then fused into a single sheet with internal passageways by high heat and pressure in a machine that might be compared to a waffle iron.

They could create any pattern they wished inside the plate that would provide internal manifolding and distribution of the liquid involved (freon, water, or any other heat-transfer medium)... ...that pattern was duplicated with a silk screen and the external molds.

Everything was aligned in a heated press, and heated to a temperature sufficient to soften the metal and vaporize the silk... ...then, air was injected into the passageways to form the plate into the mold and allowed to cool.
The result was a single sheet of copper (or other metal) with nearly 100% wetted-surface area with a very thin flow of liquid within the sheet in an optimized flow pattern.

It would be impossible to even approach that heat-transfer efficiency with a traditional tube-and-fin plate.

The big weakness, heat-transfer-wise, of a tube and fin plate is that the water withing the tubes is subject to laminar flow, which basically means the the water or liquid within the tubes tends to flow in a steady stream where only the fluid in those tubes that actually touches the pipe is heated, while the fluid in the center of the pipe stays cooler. (that's why many more expensive tubes have some means of "disturbing" that flow so that the cooler fluid in the center has the opportunity to "cool the surface" and create higher efficiencies of heat-transfer)

Even the very best tube-and-fin plates needed at least 50% more gross surface area to duplicate the heat-transfer capabilities of the roll-bond plates. 

What led to the demise of the process, though, was in cases where the size of the plate wasn't a consideration, it was actually far-cheaper to manufacture the larger traditional absorber plate (heat exchanger) complete with a larger enclosure (in the case of solar collectors).

The Solar King collectors (which to my knowledge were the only ones manufactured using rollbond plates) cost twice as much to build as similar-appearing conventional collectors of the same size, and consequently were still more expensive than the competition's larger collectors that could provide similar output (if all other things were equal). Only when the size of the installed collector array was a consideration due to finite space availability, did the roll bond plates possess a unique advantage that justified their cost.

The "public" usually didn't know the difference and had little knowledge about efficiency. All solar collectors look about the same from the outside; so rollbond sales never really took off like they should have. (You can always buy a cheaper box; it's what's in the box that counts; uninformed buyers buy boxes; informed buyers buy heat)

That's why the rollbond manufacturing process finally ceased to exist, never to return. It would simply be too expensive to ever justify ever re-creating those production facilities. 

Even today, most consumers are totally ignorant of the fact that one flat plate collector, depending on its design and the materials used (like selective surfaces, glazing transmittivity, insulation technique, etc) can allow the "better" collectors to out-perform similar looking "lesser" collectors in applications like domestic hot water at 140 degrees by as much as a 15 to 1 ratio under some operating conditions (use one of the "best" or 15 of the others and get the same amount of heat trying to make 140 degree water on a 50 degree day with slightly overcast skies, for example).

The reason I know all this, is that I've been in the solar business since the '70's (although I've been mostly retired for the last 15 or so years).

At one time, I had a retail company that designed and installed more solar-thermal systems that worked than probably everybody else in my state combined.

My specialty was water-heating (dhw, space heating, pool heating, process heat, etc).

I also had a separate wholesale division, and was a warehouse distributor for American Solar King, Fafco, Morning Star, and many of the other leaders in the industry.

I'm located in the Metro St Louis area, more or less "right across the river" from Alton, Illinois where Olin's rollbond manufacturing facility was located.

When I learned that they had suddenly ceased production, I called to see if they had any left-over inventory, and eventually ended up buying what they had left "sitting around". ...almost filled two semi-trailers.

I had it in my head that I would build a quantity of collectors myself, and that there would be people somewhere who could appreciate the quality and performance.

My window of opportunity to buy the plates was very small, and I didn't really have the time to think that idea through sufficiently. The cost to source extrusions, glass, etc was phenomenal in the relatively small quantities that corresponded to the number of plates I had.

I ended up selling off the plates in small quantities to individuals with do-it-yourself projects and business with other applications. (they make unbelievable submersible heat exchangers for lake or pond-source heat pumps, heat-recovery applications, and also can be used to capture heat from surrounding air in freon-assisted heating applications... ...anywhere heat transfer involving liquids is applicable.

Over the years, I've sold almost everything I bought; I'm down to a few hundred 4x8 plates, some of them with selective black paint already applied to one side.

Bottom line is, if you can figure out how to put your system together, you won't be able to beat the plates you have for efficiency. The only thing to be careful of, If you end up with something that will produce fairly high temperatures, is to provide some way to allow for thermal expansion of the plates, and especially for the copper "nipples" where the fluid connections are made to connect to your external manifolds.

Remember that copper will constantly expand and contract as it heats and cools. You can't simply bolt or screw those plates solidly in place without some means to remove the stress and bending when those plates heat and cool in their normal operation; something will eventually fracture from the "bending".

That's especially true of those "nipples"...
If you hard solder everything in place, your manifolding required to connect multiple plates will also "grow" and contract as it heats and cools.

That will actually bend those nipples back and forth, and over time will crack or break them where they attach to the plates themselves (that's the weakest link in the entire design). One solution is to make the connections between the "nipple" and the manifold with short length of high-temp, pressure rated silicone hose, and secure that hose with good quality extended-band hose clamp (that's when the unperforated band wraps around the inside of the clamp so that the perforations that appear in a standard hose clamp don't puncture the outer membrane of the hose.

Other than that, the rest of your design will be pretty well straight-forward.

I hope this info helps a bit.

Buz


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Thanks Buz . . . . . . Most interesting post.

Yes another good example where the allmighty buck raises its ugly head.


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## d.dumont (Jun 23, 2010)

Buz,


That was EXACTLY the kind of input I was looking for!!!! I knew someone would have some type of experience somewhere out there... I really appreciate your knowledge & input, you have saved me a few headaches already!!! 

I can't thank you enough,


Dan


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## Diego (Aug 6, 2010)

Buz[/QUOTE]
Dear Buz;

I am writing from Chile in South America, many thanks for your very interesting information about the Olin Brass copper roll bond absorbers, we are a small company in Santiago, nowadays we are producing traditional solar collectors, however since some years ago, I am very interested in copper roll bond absorbers, because I saw solar collector with aluminium roll bond absorber with very high eficciency, then I am sure that copper roll bond absober will be better, whereas the solar collector made for Turk company Demir Dokum is with aluminum roll bond absorber with certificated 83,6% efficiency, please see the following link;

http://www.demirdokum.com/eng/urunle...2&ParentId=199

If you have some copper absorber yet, I would like to purchase them for experimental use, moreover, I will be very grateful if you send me more technical information and/or photos. 
I will be very respectful of their knowledge and experience.

Diego


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## Hovald Petersen (9 mo ago)

Buztoo said:


> Hi, Dan
> 
> The Olin Rollbond heat exchanger/absorber plate is absolutely and unequivocally THE most efficient flat-plate heat exchanger ever produced... ...and they'll never come up with anything that will match it in terms of btu/sq ft heat-exchange ability in any other flat-plate metal design.
> 
> ...


Hello Buz
I am a dane .. living in Denmark. And having a domestic solar hot water ond some house heating plant on 6.4 m2 (equals 60 sq foot) of exposed solar collective surface.

It is with Olin cu absorbers.. 4 pcs and with a selective black nickel tape or foil glued to the front of the exposed surface

I have had this copper solar system since 1990 and it is working eminent ... much better than most other plants of other manufacture. May best of all is the low maintenance job during the years.
So I will recommed the Olin product to anyone.
My story is similar to yours. I had a company which produced solar thermal plants mostly to private houses. But we used mostly VDM aluminium roll bond absorbers. And the plants did not 'live' as long as the almost eternal cupper absorbers. So we got into troubles and it was not sustainable for the future. 
I went into buying Olin products but changed later business due to many reasons.

But I like to ask you it you have Olin advertizing and catalouge information sheets from your company Solar King at that time or from Olin you can send electronically to my mailboks.. as I am writing the story of the green movement in Europe and in Denmark during those years.
I will supply you then later with my book or books plus what comes natural to writing with my involvements in the movements in those years . Also many meetings!, congresses and conventions etc. As I have family members living in the US we may get a kind of good corespondance in the future.
Tha actual war in Ukraine and tendency to turn fully into RE in Europe gives me more reason to write the books. And a reference to you and your former employment and company will be most welcome.

Please give a respond to my mailboks. It should be possible.
Yours 
Hovald Petersen 
[email protected]


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