# Solar water pump Setup.



## stanb999

Well after proposing it years ago and getting good direction. I have finally installed my solar water pump in my spring to irrigate my hoop house. The hoop house is 50 ft above the spring and 800 ft away and needs about 25 PSI to operate properly. These two factors made the build rather difficult due to the relatively high pressure needed at the source.

I have a 
30 watt panel
a 115 Amp hour deep cycle with cheap charge controller.
A 12 volt water pump.


This setup should more than cover my needs for my drip irrigation system. The math says I need about 2 hours of pumping a week, really 3 times a week turning off and on for 1 hour and 20 mins running about half the time. The pump uses 9.8 amps at max pressure. Running amps. will be somewhat less than this closer to 8 amps as an average. Because it won't always be at max pressure. 

Here is a quick break down.
30 watts an hour 3.5 hours a day. or +/- 100 watts a day.
7 days a week for 700 watts potential.
I plan on using about 240 watts a week approx.
The water pump wont run in the colder low light months, due to freezing conditions.

Does this math sound conservative enough? The math for water usage would be well off the charts for inches of precipitation and would only be that high in the hottest sunniest months. Will there be enough "left over" power to water the garden the same amount? Again this would be only during the sunniest time of the year?


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## idahodave

Not so good...

The 30 watt panel is good for about 1.75 amps charge current.
Not enough to charge the battery.

Remember that a lead acid battery charge discharge cycle is around 80% efficient, dependent on the battery state of charge. The efficiency drops for the last few percent of charging, so a battery that needs only the last 10% of charge could be 50% efficient.

What happens when the sun doesn't shine?


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## stanb999

idahodave said:


> Not so good...
> 
> The 30 watt panel is good for about 1.75 amps charge current.
> Not enough to charge the battery.
> 
> Remember that a lead acid battery charge discharge cycle is around 80% efficient, dependent on the battery state of charge. The efficiency drops for the last few percent of charging, so a battery that needs only the last 10% of charge could be 50% efficient.
> 
> What happens when the sun doesn't shine?


A 30 watt panel won't charge a battery? Why?

My peak usage would be approx 1/3 of the power produced. This isn't enough?


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## ace admirer

i have that at about 22 psi static head pressure + 800 feet of pipe would be a lot of friction pressure. 

The 25 psi you mention is an actual test pressure? the 8 amps mention an actual measured load?
very interested in data.

would it be better to just pump during solar noon and forget about the battery? and charge controller.


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## simi-steading

Just curious.. does water run out of the spring and down hill at all? If so, would a water ram pump be feasible? No electricity needed...


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## stanb999

ace admirer said:


> i have that at about 22 psi static head pressure + 800 feet of pipe would be a lot of friction pressure.
> 
> The 25 psi you mention is an actual test pressure? the 8 amps mention an actual measured load?
> very interested in data.
> 
> would it be better to just pump during solar noon and forget about the battery? and charge controller.


I am using 3/4" pipe. The drip pipe can only put out .8 gallons a min. Even at that length 1-2 gal a min friction is almost nothing. 

No actual testing. Amps are based off of the pump ratings. PSI is based off of the elevation change, the pump capacity, and the drip hose rating. I'm most worried that I miscalculated about the elevation changes... Too much and the pump low pressure switch just won't activate. But I should be good. It's 25 PSI and the elevation effect is 22 PSI. 

Solar direct pump setups cost drastically more... Hundreds more for the pump, You need a pump controller, and finally bigger panels. You would also need a tank to act as your "battery". Finally a pressure pump up the hill to activate the drip lines.


P.S. the pump has a max rating of 45 PSI.. So 45-22 = 23 or so working pressure. I shouldn't need a pressure limiter on the drip system.


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## stanb999

simi-steading said:


> Just curious.. does water run out of the spring and down hill at all? If so, would a water ram pump be feasible? No electricity needed...


Not enough drop. I have about 6 feet at 5 gallons a min(summer flow). Using even a highly efficient ram pump. The best you could hope for is a tiny amount of water. In the range of almost nothing. Then you would still need a tank and pressure pump up the hill for the drip system.


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## Raymond James

What is the friction loss on the pipe? The seller should have a number. Friction loss x 800 ft x 50 ft of lift to get the size of the pump needed to pump your water.. Each pump has a chart pick a pump wear our numbers fall in the middle of the curve on the chart. 

Now that you know the size of the pump see how many amps it uses. How long you expect to run it and how much power you need to operate it.

Size your solar panels and batteries to give you that much power. 

Sounds like you have the set up done. If so I say run it and monitor the battery charge, you an always pull the battery and put it on a 110 volt plug in charger if needed. I know folks that operate pumps from batteries that are removed and charged then put back on to pump. 

Visited a sprout growing shed that operated a 12 volt pump system from a feed off of a diesel engine used to operate a milk tank -cooler. They could use a solar set up but already have the engine running to operate the milk tank.


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## stanb999

Here is a picture of the setup so far.

You will note the piping isn't setup yet. I need a filter for the intake and the 3/4" poly is on order and should arrive this week.


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## stanb999

Raymond James said:


> What is the friction loss on the pipe? The seller should have a number. Friction loss x 800 ft x 50 ft of lift to get the size of the pump needed to pump your water.. Each pump has a chart pick a pump wear our numbers fall in the middle of the curve on the chart.
> 
> Now that you know the size of the pump see how many amps it uses. How long you expect to run it and how much power you need to operate it.
> 
> Size your solar panels and batteries to give you that much power.
> 
> Sounds like you have the set up done. If so I say run it and monitor the battery charge, you an always pull the battery and put it on a 110 volt plug in charger if needed. I know folks that operate pumps from batteries that are removed and charged then put back on to pump.
> 
> Visited a sprout growing shed that operated a 12 volt pump system from a feed off of a diesel engine used to operate a milk tank -cooler. They could use a solar set up but already have the engine running to operate the milk tank.


Friction loss as noted above is about .16 per hundred at 1 gallon per min. @ 800 ft it will be less than 2 PSI.

The basic pump specs. are in the postings above. 7-9.8 amp. 25-45 PSI @ 2.7 GPM.


It should supply the hoop house with more than 240 gallons a week on the schedule noted above. It "needs" about 100. I gave a huge multiplier so it would work for that. I was wondering if folks thought I could run it on occasion for the garden as well. It is more than enough for the hoop house.


P.S. I asked how to set this up several years ago... Got good help. I wanted to show that the help was used and appreciated. Even if not timely. Money..., time..., efforts put to other things. It all came together finally.

P.P.S. I just did a search it was 2008... I am doing it for about the 300 dollar price listed except for the pipe. That's additional.


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## Jim-mi

You are very confused on your electrical terms.
A PV panel does not produce "watts per hour".

What is going to turn the pump on and off ??
The way you describe it, once you hook the wire to the pump it is going to run until the battery is dead.

that PV panel will barely generate enough energy to run the pump-- under load-- for way less that an hour per good sunny day

often the truth hurts...........


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## idahodave

The charge current is too small to keep the battery electrolyte churning. The battery will slowly lose capacity. You could take the battery to a plug in charger for an equalizing charge to keep the battery happy.

The panel puts out 30 watts at the maximum power point (usually about 17 volts for a 12 volt rated panel) and closer to 22 watts at 12.5 volts. You should use 22 watts for your calculations. 20% power will be lost in the charge discharge cycle of the battery.

Without real numbers for the current draw and run time for the pump it's impossible to predict if you have enough capacity. 

I'd watch the specific gravity of the battery to see if it's being fully recharged.


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## stanb999

Jim-mi said:


> You are very confused on your electrical terms.
> A PV panel does not produce "watts per hour".
> 
> What is going to turn the pump on and off ??
> The way you describe it, once you hook the wire to the pump it is going to run until the battery is dead.
> 
> that PV panel will barely generate enough energy to run the pump-- under load-- for way less that an hour per good sunny day
> 
> often the truth hurts...........



Misunderstandings are a plentiful in your post... :hammer:

The pump uses watts per hour about 120. The panel produces watts... 30 per hour in the sun. 3.5 hours of peak per day ... 700 watts per week that is 7 times the daily output of 100 watts. The pump is needed only 1 hour a week. 3 times for about 20 min. each. Yes the hoop house only needs about 150 gallons a week.

It is a automatic pressure pump. It turns it's self on and off. When the pressure falls to 25 it turns on. When the pressure rises to 45... it's off.

P.S. what panel do you suggest to produce 120watts per week? 100? 200? 1000? 4 years ago... a 5 watt panel could do it. 

Calculation for 5 watt panel 
3.5 x 5 = 17.5 watts per day.
17.5 x 7 days a week = 122.5 watts a week... Math, some have it some don't.


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## stanb999

idahodave said:


> The charge current is too small to keep the battery electrolyte churning. The battery will slowly lose capacity. You could take the battery to a plug in charger for an equalizing charge to keep the battery happy.
> 
> The panel puts out 30 watts at the maximum power point (usually about 17 volts for a 12 volt rated panel) and closer to 22 watts at 12.5 volts. You should use 22 watts for your calculations. 20% power will be lost in the charge discharge cycle of the battery.
> 
> Without real numbers for the current draw and run time for the pump it's impossible to predict if you have enough capacity.
> 
> I'd watch the specific gravity of the battery to see if it's being fully recharged.


The run time will be very small. In fact the panel will produce about 8 times as much power as is needed. I gave the amps of the pump above and the approx. run times. 

To state it again... The pump will use about 8 amps for about an hour a week or 96 watts. That is all. No more. In fact it won't run this much except in the peak of summer. When useful solar hours will be higher. Most of the time it will be half that much. I was wondering how much extra useful power or differently water I could figure in at the top of the hill. Should I figure using 50% of the available power? 75%? The 22 watts will be very useful and I will plug them in. 

Am I right them to say I will have closer to 500 watts each week? So I could run the pump for about 4 hours max a week? This again would only be in the summer when it's dry and often cloud free all day... 5-6 hours of good sun would produce more than the 3.5 average for sure. I guess I will need to get a good meter for the battery.

How often does a battery need a deeper discharge and fast recharge? The battery will never go below 90% or so. I know it should cycle some. But how much? How often?


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## ace admirer

well i went through rough/rapid calculations, with the demand pump you're using its a tough calculation. but i suspect your panel is close or a little small. like others have said, keep a close watch on the battery condition. and be careful of the demand type pump cycling too rapidly. causing pump motor over heating and pressure switch contacts arching (burning)out.

do you have a charge controller? the one i use will disconnect the load if the battery becomes too discharged, prevents battery damage. northern tool for 60 or $100 depending on panel wattage.

panels are rated in watts, and if you look at a solar map you can figure watt-hours/day usually 4 or 5 hours of useable sunlight per day.

and if the 30 watt panel is too small (as proven by actual test) then just save your money to purchase another panel

.i've been wanting to do this for years, could you please keep me(us) updated?


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## SolarGary

stanb999 said:


> Well after proposing it years ago and getting good direction. I have finally installed my solar water pump in my spring to irrigate my hoop house. The hoop house is 50 ft above the spring and 800 ft away and needs about 25 PSI to operate properly. These two factors made the build rather difficult due to the relatively high pressure needed at the source.
> 
> I have a
> 30 watt panel
> a 115 Amp hour deep cycle with cheap charge controller.
> A 12 volt water pump.
> 
> 
> This setup should more than cover my needs for my drip irrigation system. The math says I need about 2 hours of pumping a week, really 3 times a week turning off and on for 1 hour and 20 mins running about half the time. The pump uses 9.8 amps at max pressure. Running amps. will be somewhat less than this closer to 8 amps as an average. Because it won't always be at max pressure.
> 
> Here is a quick break down.
> 30 watts an hour 3.5 hours a day. or +/- 100 watts a day.
> 7 days a week for 700 watts potential.
> I plan on using about 240 watts a week approx.
> The water pump wont run in the colder low light months, due to freezing conditions.
> 
> Does this math sound conservative enough? The math for water usage would be well off the charts for inches of precipitation and would only be that high in the hottest sunniest months. Will there be enough "left over" power to water the garden the same amount? Again this would be only during the sunniest time of the year?


Hi,
If the pump draws 8 amps and its a 12 volt pump, then it will be using (8 amps)(12 volts) = 96 watts when running.

2 hours run time a week is about 0.3 hours a day. 
This would be (8 amp)(0.3 hours) = 2.4 amp-hrs each day
Which would be (12 volts)(2.4 amp-hrs) = 29 watt-hours a day.

The watt-hour rating on your battery if you limit yourself to 20% discharge would be (115 amp-hrs)(12 volts)(0.2) = 276 watt-hours. So, to me, your battery seems large enough for this job with a good margin.


A 30 watt panel with (say) 6 hours of sunlight should be able to provide about 
(30 watts)(6 hours) = 180 watt-hours a day.
Some of that gets lost because the PV ratings are optimistic and the battery charging is only about 80% efficient.
But, you only need about 30 watt-hours a day, and the panel should do over 100 watt-hours a day even allowing a lot of inefficiencies. So, the panel seems large enough to me with a good margin.

Watt-hours are an amount of energy (as in your battery stores 276 watt-hours). Watts are a rate of using energy (as in your pump draws 96 watts).
Watts per day does not make any sense -- watts are already a rate.


Its been suggested that the (30 Watts)/(12 volts) = 2.5 amp charging current is too low, and that this will result in low battery life. I was not able to find anything out there on this potential problem?


If you run a total of 800 ft of 3/4 pipe at 2.7 gpm, that's 0.81 psi/100ft or about 7 psi for 800 ft. 
Add that to 50 ft of vertical head or 22 psi.
Add that to 25 psi of working pressure for the system.

This all totals to 54 psi. Sounds like that is a little about your pumps maximum rating, so it will settle out at a lower flow, depending on the pump curve for that pump.
Your pump may be running near maximum current all the time, but it seems like you have enough margin to cover that.
I think it would be good to hook the pump up and check and see if it can actually do the job. Do you have the specs for the pump?

Gary


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## Fire-Man

Stanb999

You were ask the Question "What is going to turn the pump on and off" which was also my question. I think this was asked because when you hook your pump up it will cycle on and off till the battery dies. From what you have posted I am guessing YOU will be turning the pump on and let it cycle on and off till YOU cut it back off-----Not a automatic setup.

I feel sure the pump startup will draw more amps/watts for those few seconds than the running for a few seconds, so would you feel a small pressure tank would save any battery drain? I did this for several years on a remote Camper and it seem to help. The pump would run longer to pressurize the tank but would stay off alot longer----Less cycling on and off.


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## Nimrod

They make battery operated hose timers for about $25. It will turn your sprinkler on and off. The pump will only run when the sprinkler is turned on if it has a pressure shut off switch.


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## idahodave

Here's a link to about battery efficiency and depth of discharge or state of charge:
http://www.localenergy.org/pdfs/Document%20Library/Lead%20Acid%20Battery%20Efficiency.pdf

The conclusion states that batteries used in the 100%-90% state of charge are in the 50% efficiency range. That's the case here.

Here's a link about charge rates that recommends 5% of the 20 hour rate as the minimum charge rate:

http://support.rollsbattery.com/sup...f-charge-charging-flooded-lead-acid-batteries

125 amp-hours * 0.05=6.25 amps or about three times higher that the panel can provide.

A 30 watt panel cannot deliver 30 watts to a battery without using a MPPT charge controller. As I posted it will be closer to 22 watts.

But with only 2 hours a week use it should work....I didn't think the run time would be so limited. I'd still watch the SG and pull the battery out and charge it until the SG on all the cells match. If the sun shines everyday you could have excess power to water the garden.

Dave


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## stanb999

ace admirer said:


> well i went through rough/rapid calculations, with the demand pump you're using its a tough calculation. but i suspect your panel is close or a little small. like others have said, keep a close watch on the battery condition. and be careful of the demand type pump cycling too rapidly. causing pump motor over heating and pressure switch contacts arching (burning)out.
> 
> do you have a charge controller? the one i use will disconnect the load if the battery becomes too discharged, prevents battery damage. northern tool for 60 or $100 depending on panel wattage.
> 
> panels are rated in watts, and if you look at a solar map you can figure watt-hours/day usually 4 or 5 hours of useable sunlight per day.
> 
> and if the 30 watt panel is too small (as proven by actual test) then just save your money to purchase another panel
> 
> .i've been wanting to do this for years, could you please keep me(us) updated?


On the pump quick cycling.. I have to make a "pressure" tank. No choice really. It will be a 6' section of 2" PVC with a bike inner tube in it. They want a min of 50 bucks for a "real" one. This should give about .5 gallons of capacity. Manufacturer of the pump claims faster on/off than 2 seconds is "quick cycling". This should move it to 15 seconds or so. The pump is designed to run continuous for 2 hours. Then be allowed to cool, actually it will just shut it's self off it it gets hot.

The "usable" sun hours in my area is 3.5 per day on a yearly basis. In summer it will be much higher but I used the min. to be conservative. 

Yes, I got a cheapo controller... It just regulates the battery charging. If I have an issue I will upgrade to a better one.

I will update the thread and let you know how it works out.


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## stanb999

SolarGary said:


> Hi,
> If the pump draws 8 amps and its a 12 volt pump, then it will be using (8 amps)(12 volts) = 96 watts when running.
> 
> 2 hours run time a week is about 0.3 hours a day.
> This would be (8 amp)(0.3 hours) = 2.4 amp-hrs each day
> Which would be (12 volts)(2.4 amp-hrs) = 29 watt-hours a day.
> 
> The watt-hour rating on your battery if you limit yourself to 20% discharge would be (115 amp-hrs)(12 volts)(0.2) = 276 watt-hours. So, to me, your battery seems large enough for this job with a good margin.
> 
> 
> A 30 watt panel with (say) 6 hours of sunlight should be able to provide about
> (30 watts)(6 hours) = 180 watt-hours a day.
> Some of that gets lost because the PV ratings are optimistic and the battery charging is only about 80% efficient.
> But, you only need about 30 watt-hours a day, and the panel should do over 100 watt-hours a day even allowing a lot of inefficiencies. So, the panel seems large enough to me with a good margin.
> 
> Watt-hours are an amount of energy (as in your battery stores 276 watt-hours). Watts are a rate of using energy (as in your pump draws 96 watts).
> Watts per day does not make any sense -- watts are already a rate.
> 
> 
> Its been suggested that the (30 Watts)/(12 volts) = 2.5 amp charging current is too low, and that this will result in low battery life. I was not able to find anything out there on this potential problem?
> 
> 
> If you run a total of 800 ft of 3/4 pipe at 2.7 gpm, that's 0.81 psi/100ft or about 7 psi for 800 ft.
> Add that to 50 ft of vertical head or 22 psi.
> Add that to 25 psi of working pressure for the system.
> 
> This all totals to 54 psi. Sounds like that is a little about your pumps maximum rating, so it will settle out at a lower flow, depending on the pump curve for that pump.
> Your pump may be running near maximum current all the time, but it seems like you have enough margin to cover that.
> I think it would be good to hook the pump up and check and see if it can actually do the job. Do you have the specs for the pump?
> 
> Gary



Wrong terminology right results.... Thank you. 


On the pump and pressure. 
I guess I did not do well explaining it.

The pump cycles on and off @ 25-45 PSI. 45 is the max.
The elevation change is what it is.. 22 PSI
I can raise the turn on pressure it has an adjustment screw. And likely will adjust it to about 30. But it doesn't affect the max. From what I've read the max. isn't adjustable. Just the start-up. This pump is actually manufactured to be used with a chemical sprayer or other metered applications. So the pressure/flow is pretty precise by design. In fact other than open. It pumps the same 2.7 gpm across the pressure range 10-45 PSI. Unlike most pumps of this style. I got this one because it handled the pressure well and used a surprisingly small amount of juice at higher pressures. The thing is it doesn't really use much less. "Open" it still uses like 7 amps. Which would be a lot in some applications like just moving water from one tank to another at zero pressure. Their isn't any true to type spec. on this pump that I have found, I have looked. It's a newer design Model# 2088-343-435 But if you google shurflo Model# 2088 you will get the basic gist. It most closely matches 2088-343-135. I think the difference here is the chemical rating. The motors all have about the same specs just slightly different pumps attached. Like some have higher gallons per min. lower pressure/ higher pressure and lower gallons per min. Some are for potable water, some are not. Some have cooling fins so they can run continuous for hours and hours, Some don't. But largely they are the same. Just slight changes to suit the exact need. They literally have a ton of "types".

The drip line...
Needs 5-10 PSI to work. It needs just some pressure
It can't take pressure over 25 PSI at the pipe. 
So the pump should pump till 45 psi shut off, The drip line keeps "dripping" for 15 seconds.. Then when the tank runs out of pressure. It will cycle on again. It would be better to have a larger pressure tank. But they are costly.


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## stanb999

Nimrod said:


> They make battery operated hose timers for about $25. It will turn your sprinkler on and off. The pump will only run when the sprinkler is turned on if it has a pressure shut off switch.


That is part of the plan, But we have spent enough on the hoop house for now. Maybe when some produce stand sales come in it can be bought with "profits". The one I saw was closer to 60 bucks. It will turn on and off the drip system up to 8 times a week. I'm trying to find a good soil moisture gauge. They all seem real cheaply made. Maybe they just are?


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## stanb999

Fire-Man said:


> Stanb999
> 
> You were ask the Question "What is going to turn the pump on and off" which was also my question. I think this was asked because when you hook your pump up it will cycle on and off till the battery dies. From what you have posted I am guessing YOU will be turning the pump on and let it cycle on and off till YOU cut it back off-----Not a automatic setup.
> 
> I feel sure the pump startup will draw more amps/watts for those few seconds than the running for a few seconds, so would you feel a small pressure tank would save any battery drain? I did this for several years on a remote Camper and it seem to help. The pump would run longer to pressurize the tank but would stay off alot longer----Less cycling on and off.


The pump is "automatic". When the valve at the hoop house is open the pump will cycle. When it is closed it will stop. In theory one needs not go to the spring for daily operation at all. I thought about putting a switch at the hoop house and a relay by the pump for about a minute. LOL. 800ft of wire even if tiny isn't cheap.

Yes it will require a pressure "tank".


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## Fire-Man

stanb999 said:


> The pump is "automatic". When the valve at the hoop house is open the pump will cycle. When it is closed it will stop.


 What opens the valve at the hoop house?


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## stanb999

Fire-Man said:


> What opens the valve at the hoop house?


My wife.


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## ace admirer

the pump is a common pump used on 30 gallon weed sprayers, perhaps some RV's. it has a built in pressure (or lack of pressure) switch. when the upstream pressure drops below a set point, the pump runs....just like you house hold water pump,,,,only cheaper built. the pump is basically a positive displacement diaphragm pump. it willl suffer from freezing

I don't think anyone in America is going to find 6 hours of usable/photovoltaic sunlight. about a 1/4 of the nation gets around 3 hours. morning and afternoon sunlight is of little use on a panel for several reasons. 

nothing wrong with the inter tube bladder accumulator, i have a professional water ram that uses something very near.

the units of the math balance (power in vs power out + eff) can be worked a couple of ways.

watt hours or Amp-hours @ a voltage 

the relative unknowns are:

actual power of the panel
actual watt-hours of the panel and location
actual amp draw of the load (pump)
efficiency of the interaction of panel/charge controller/battery system.

since the system is mostly there, lets experiment. the only thing that can be harmed is the storage battery and the charge controller can prevent that. if the pump cycles too much, accumulator precharge/volume and or switch setpoint might have to be monkeyed with.....different spring or somethng.


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## Fire-Man

stanb999 said:


> My wife.


 
OK, Got you figured out now. You just using the pump setup as a pressured water source------So you/wife will draw off this as needed to irrigate your Hoop House----LOL. I was thinking a different set-up. Make sure you got a filter on the pump because a little trash can cause you alot of headache with this pump. I used a 30 gallon tank as a pressure tank with a pump just like this and it worked good. Good Luck


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## stanb999

Fire-Man said:


> Good Luck


Thank you..

Now if home depot would just get the pipe here... the tracking has it not coming till next week. :hair


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## Nimrod

I have not bought a timer in a while. they have gone up a bit.

http://www.menards.com/main/lawn-ga...lectronic-hose-end-timer/p-1754862-c-8662.htm

http://www.menards.com/main/lawn-ga...e-dial-hose-faucet-timer/p-1773559-c-8669.htm


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## SolarGary

stanb999 said:


> Wrong terminology right results.... Thank you.
> 
> 
> On the pump and pressure.
> I guess I did not do well explaining it.
> 
> The pump cycles on and off @ 25-45 PSI. 45 is the max.
> The elevation change is what it is.. 22 PSI
> I can raise the turn on pressure it has an adjustment screw. And likely will adjust it to about 30. But it doesn't affect the max. From what I've read the max. isn't adjustable. Just the start-up. This pump is actually manufactured to be used with a chemical sprayer or other metered applications. So the pressure/flow is pretty precise by design. In fact other than open. It pumps the same 2.7 gpm across the pressure range 10-45 PSI. Unlike most pumps of this style. I got this one because it handled the pressure well and used a surprisingly small amount of juice at higher pressures. The thing is it doesn't really use much less. "Open" it still uses like 7 amps. Which would be a lot in some applications like just moving water from one tank to another at zero pressure. Their isn't any true to type spec. on this pump that I have found, I have looked. It's a newer design Model# 2088-343-435 But if you google shurflo Model# 2088 you will get the basic gist. It most closely matches 2088-343-135. I think the difference here is the chemical rating. The motors all have about the same specs just slightly different pumps attached. Like some have higher gallons per min. lower pressure/ higher pressure and lower gallons per min. Some are for potable water, some are not. Some have cooling fins so they can run continuous for hours and hours, Some don't. But largely they are the same. Just slight changes to suit the exact need. They literally have a ton of "types".
> 
> The drip line...
> Needs 5-10 PSI to work. It needs just some pressure
> It can't take pressure over 25 PSI at the pipe.
> So the pump should pump till 45 psi shut off, The drip line keeps "dripping" for 15 seconds.. Then when the tank runs out of pressure. It will cycle on again. It would be better to have a larger pressure tank. But they are costly.



Hi,
It sounds like its the type of pump used on a lot of RV potable water systems. On these, if you open a faucet, water starts flowing out, and when the pressure drops to 25 psi (or so), the pump turns on. If the flow out the faucet is fairly low, the pump is able to get up to its high setting and shuts off. Then the cycle repeats -- just as you are thinking will happen with your GH system. This works pretty well in RV's, and the pumps seem to hold up to the cycling reasonably well.

Please let us know how this works out.

Gary


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## stanb999

SolarGary said:


> Please let us know how this works out.
> 
> Gary




Will do.


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## homebody

Is this pump submersible and does it hurt it to run dry? Can you tell us where you got it? And please keep us updated as I'm trying to figure out something similar, only we would be using a driven sandpoint well. 
Let me say that we haven't tried doing the sandpoint yet. It will be tried in AR Ozarks where there is a lot of rocks and I have many doubts as to whether we will succeed. Many thanks.


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## stanb999

homebody said:


> Is this pump submersible and does it hurt it to run dry? Can you tell us where you got it? And please keep us updated as I'm trying to figure out something similar, only we would be using a driven sandpoint well.
> Let me say that we haven't tried doing the sandpoint yet. It will be tried in AR Ozarks where there is a lot of rocks and I have many doubts as to whether we will succeed. Many thanks.



No the pump isn't submersible. In fact it has to be protected from the weather. I got it at Northern tool. There are submersibles available from various sources at prices starting around 350 and going to 1500 or so for top of the line direct panel tied models. The reason I didn't go submersible was the cost of the pump. In just about every other way they would be better. Freeze proof, more powerful, same or more flow per min. 

In my neck of the woods sand points would work to 1 foot +/- a foot. LOL Good luck!


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## stanb999

So the pipe finally came. I installed it last night. Now it isn't fully installed but it was enough to get a measure of the water flow. 2.5 GPM with a five gallon pail pushing the water 50 up and 730 ft of 3/4" pipe. Not too bad. The pump didn't seam stressed so all was well.

I will hook it to the drip hose in a few days after the pipe has a chance to relax from being coiled.


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## artificer

For what its worth, with your numbers, you probably have:
Specific Head Loss (ft H2O / 100 ft pipe): 2.471
Specific Head Loss (psi / 100 ft pipe): 1.1
Actual Head Loss (ft H2O): 18.041
Actual Head Loss (psi): 7.8
Velocity (ft/s): 1.82

These numbers are for 730' of 3/4" ID plastic pipe and 2.5gpm.

With 50' of head pressure, you're starting out at about 30psi pressure loss for the pump. You still might need to put a pressure control valve just before the drip irrigation, since the final output is going to be about 15psi. If you have a lot of drip heads, then you'll never see the max pressure. If you only use a few, however, then you might have a problem.

Michael


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## stanb999

artificer said:


> For what its worth, with your numbers, you probably have:
> Specific Head Loss (ft H2O / 100 ft pipe): 2.471
> Specific Head Loss (psi / 100 ft pipe): 1.1
> Actual Head Loss (ft H2O): 18.041
> Actual Head Loss (psi): 7.8
> Velocity (ft/s): 1.82
> 
> These numbers are for 730' of 3/4" ID plastic pipe and 2.5gpm.
> 
> With 50' of head pressure, you're starting out at about 30psi pressure loss for the pump. You still might need to put a pressure control valve just before the drip irrigation, since the final output is going to be about 15psi. If you have a lot of drip heads, then you'll never see the max pressure. If you only use a few, however, then you might have a problem.
> 
> Michael


I used the simple chart on this page... http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-loss-plastic-pipes-d_404.html

Works out to .3 per hundred. or about 2 psi in friction loss. 

The actual flow will only be 1 Gal. per min. That is what the soaker hose is rated for. The soaker hose is rated to 25 PSI so as you say I won't need a pressure valve. You could be right that the pump will likely never reach enough pressure to shut off if I use more than one. But with one it should cycle. It maybe worth while to use two. Less turning on and off. I have to think about it.


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## CesumPec

I've looked at a similar system for cattle water. It is sold as a complete system somewhere in Florida. I'm not very educated in electricity, so I can't give you much detail at the watts and amps level, but the system works without a battery. 

You don't want a battery because it adds install and maintenance costs that are not necessary. Your "battery" is a big tank of water that will get you thru several days of water use. I guess you would size the tank based on your water needs and local expected conditions during the season you need the water. In central Florida, we need a 3 day supply - at least according to the company selling the system. 

The pump comes on based on a two input switch, you have to have daylight and a toilet tank type float switch showing the level in storage is down. Very simple. 

I haven't used this system, so I can't personally vouch for it. I decided against it because it would take too much PV and storage to meet my pasture irrigation needs.


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## stanb999

CesumPec said:


> I've looked at a similar system for cattle water. It is sold as a complete system somewhere in Florida. I'm not very educated in electricity, so I can't give you much detail at the watts and amps level, but the system works without a battery.
> 
> You don't want a battery because it adds install and maintenance costs that are not necessary. Your "battery" is a big tank of water that will get you thru several days of water use. I guess you would size the tank based on your water needs and local expected conditions during the season you need the water. In central Florida, we need a 3 day supply - at least according to the company selling the system.
> 
> The pump comes on based on a two input switch, you have to have daylight and a toilet tank type float switch showing the level in storage is down. Very simple.
> 
> I haven't used this system, so I can't personally vouch for it. I decided against it because it would take too much PV and storage to meet my pasture irrigation needs.


I looked into them. The cost was a big factor. Most of the solar direct connect systems I've seen are pumping in the range of a few gallons a min/ a couple hundred a day for a total of a few thousand a week. More than I would get from my small system. But at a much higher cost.

The battery while costly is more than offset with the smaller solar panel and much cheaper pump. Direct connect pumps cost 6-10 times more than the one I purchased. I would have needed at least 100 watts of panel and 120 would be prudent.


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## stanb999

Ok, so I put the soaker hoses on and let her rip... Some great news. It works!

The pump 
Initially it was cycling 8 sec on and 2 off, with just one soaker hose connected. The pump comes with paperwork that states that the pump shouldn't cycle on and off @ 2 seconds. So I added a splitter and a second soaker hose now it's 2 running at once. The pump runs continuous now. The pump works well this way. It got real warm but not hot after 45 min. running strait at full pressure.(the paper work says the pumps can get to 250F... It wasn't close to this, 120 maybe.) . 

The battery... 
I had the pump run yesterday for a half hour (mostly to play with it. LOL) The battery charge indicator showed it was fully charged by this afternoon. It was clear blue skies so nearly perfect. I will keep upping the run time to see when it fails to fully charge. Then I plan to back off 30% Right now I know it can do the 20 min. three times a week per design. 

P.S. I emailed shur flo about the pump cycling time.(Is the pump "short" cycling when on for 8 sec. and off for 2?) The tech said for the most life out of the pump it shouldn't cycle on and off. It stresses the motor and pump switch contacts. He suggested a large pressure tank or a pump with lessor flow. So keep in mind if you design a pumping system using one of these style pumps. Use all the water flow rate to minimize cycling as much as practical. The pump wants to just run, not cycle on and off.


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## stanb999

Here is a link to the thread in the garden forum about the hoop house that this will be used for. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...ropagation/483818-small-hoop-house-build.html


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## stanb999

Here is an update and a small video.

The system is working great. It produces about an hours worth of pumping each day and is maintaining the battery at full power almost always. It pumps the amount of water an hour that was expected with good pressure even at the hoop. The soaker hose didn't work. It got "clogged" from the unfiltered water (the water is crystal clear spring water) :teehee:. So I added drip nozzles at each plant. This seems to be working ok for now. When I'm outside You can see the pressure drop, then the pump is activated and the pressure returns till you shut it off. 

[YOUTUBE]Q6PNECxhUI0[/YOUTUBE]


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## ace admirer

Good Deal,,,,,,a working project!


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## SolarGary

stanb999 said:


> Here is an update and a small video.
> 
> The system is working great. It produces about an hours worth of pumping each day and is maintaining the battery at full power almost always. It pumps the amount of water an hour that was expected with good pressure even at the hoop. The soaker hose didn't work. It got "clogged" from the unfiltered water (the water is crystal clear spring water) :teehee:. So I added drip nozzles at each plant. This seems to be working ok for now. When I'm outside You can see the pressure drop, then the pump is activated and the pressure returns till you shut it off.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]Q6PNECxhUI0[/YOUTUBE]


Nice!

Thanks for the update.

GAry


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## doomas

Fire-Man said:


> Stanb999
> 
> You were ask the Question "What is going to turn the pump on and off" which was also my question. I think this was asked because when you hook your pump up it will cycle on and off till the battery dies. From what you have posted I am guessing YOU will be turning the pump on and let it cycle on and off till YOU cut it back off-----Not a automatic setup.
> 
> I feel sure the pump startup will draw more amps/watts for those few seconds than the running for a few seconds, so would you feel a small pressure tank would save any battery drain? I did this for several years on a remote Camper and it seem to help. The pump would run longer to pressurize the tank but would stay off alot longer----Less cycling on and off.


 I think with this pump set up,the pipe holds pressure and the pump turns back on when the pressure drops..The problem I see with a drip line is the drip always letting the pressure off and the restarting in a short cycle pattern


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## LincTex

doomas said:


> The problem I see with a drip line is the drip always letting the pressure off and the restarting in a short cycle pattern


That only happens when running one soaker hose; with two hoses the pump runs continuously, so no problem.

Shur-Flo makes pumps that will hit over 100 psi, so if folks with a higher elevation change want to duplicate this system, they could look into those versions instead. I have a run and elevation change VERY similar to Stanb999, so it's nice he did the work for us and shared his success! I plan to duplicate it closely, except I'll also add a storage tank (275 gallon IBC tote) to fill up on the sunny days.


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