# Experience with Molly's herbal wormer



## Sherrynboo (Mar 19, 2005)

I have read with interest the debate about chemical versus the herbal wormers. I decided to at least try the herbal route to see the outcome. Saturday I will take a stool sample to the vet for inspection. I have been using Molly's herbal wormer for about 2 months now and this doe has never looked better! She is so sleek and shiny, good body weight and great milk production. I am anxious to see what the fecal reveals. She was wormed with Valbazen before she was started on the herbal formula but only once.

Sherry in GA


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

She was wormed with Valbazen before she was started on the herbal formula but only once.
...........................................

If you can worm with Valbazen you aren't dealing with HC. And I will add "yet" if you are new, have just a few goats etc. What would have been better as far as giving others information and your own herd would to have fecaled, and now used it 2 months, now check fecal and see if your worm burdens are the same.

Worm burdens and cocci problems have more to do with stocking rates, the length of time you have had goats, and the condition of the stock you purchased than just...I wormed with this and that happened.

But good luck, I would be fecal sampling more than just every 2 months being in the south until fall. Vicki


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

I started to post and decide to wait for Vicki. 

We just went through this with a person we sold two goats to. With only two - on land that never held goats - we explained that it would be a while before he would need to worry about worms.

I would say you should use this test as a baseline for future tests. Be sure your vet calculates epg and doesn't just tell you "you have worms". 

When you do get an epg count that you feel warrants worming, get the count the next day and then 10 days later to be able to really understand the efficacy of your wormer.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

The best part about the herbs is you do not deal with the roller coater ride of chemical wormers. The goat gets worms, they are not so bad then the worms get worse you worm, the worms all go away. The goat goes outside she eats the grass she gets worms they are not too bad they get worse you worm the goat, the worms go away. 
With the herbs the worms are kept at bay period. 
I wish every one would at least try them. Wouldn't it be great if we all could stop using the chemicals. 
I did the same thing when I started on them. I wormed them then started with the herbs the very next weekend. I did have 2 out of 20 that needed to be wormed with chemicals this spring but that was far better than doing all 20. The big plus is no milk withdrawal, Nothing worse than having customers wanting your milk and you are dumping it to the pigs at $9 a gallon.
I have been using them for about 2 years now and I love them. You are right they look great and milk great.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

So you are willing to give that advice to someone who lives in Georgia? We don't need to try them we know from testing done on the herbal products that they do not work for HC.

The problem with herbal wormers is they aren't standardized. I know how many mg/kg and the strength of all the chemicals I use. You have no idea if the product you are using is from the flower, leaf or root, how strong it is this year or next, or if premade by someone else making it up, if it even contains what it says. I know when I use my Cydectin that it works at this dosage, on this worm. 

Steff I don't have time to pull them up but you have been on forums for awhile, it's pretty simple to pull up all the problems you have had in your herd, most directly related to worming, and I do not believe it has ben 2 seasons you have ONLY been using the herbal wormers.

You have never ran a milk withdrawal to know if you have one or not with your herbs. You act as if everything you use on your goats is found in nature in your own backyard, and that your goats would choose to worm themselves with these. In the concentrations fed you have no idea if there is a milkwithdrawal...do you tell pregnant women or your women customers who are trying to get pregnant that you are using a product with wormwood in it? I would doubt very seriously you would be selling milk if you disclosed this, my customers wouldn't drink the milk if they really knew this information. 

There is no accurate test that has ever proved that it does any of the things you say it does. Not one person has ever came on and said any real facts I KNOW this with Ivermectin and cydectin you do not know this with what you use. "I deal with this HC at my farm...eggs per gram ran this month showed me this level, I worm when it gets to this 300 epg spring and summer and 3000 epg fall and winter or unless I see another cool weather worm or when I start seeing anemia. Ivermectin wormer has worked for me for X number of years. On monthly fecaling the following month I found X number of EPG and so I knew although the wormer was evacuating eggs, it was not keeping adult worms at bay. So I moved to Cydectin...this was several years back. I know his information because I fecal and do anemia checks.

Now if I had ever read: I decided to try the herbal wormers when my HC level was at 300 EPG (what I normally would worm a doe at during the spring and early summer our high time for HC) after the initial weekly dose the number of HC went down to 3 fecaling 10 days after the treatment:................ I would consider this to be stunning and I would move the next day to using herbal wormers. Instead we get...they look great, they are sleek and shiny, they have been on this for 2 years but of course I live in the frozen tundra. Worse is the out and out missleading information to sell a product, that herbal wormers work better than Ivermectin (Ivermectin used at the wrong dose 1cc per 110 pounds which is the label dose NOT for goats, and injected instead of giving orally. 

or...Herbal Wormers killed more tapeworms than Ivermectin...well you think??? it should, considering Ivermectin is not a tape worm med! Another is that herbal wormers work better than Safeguard/Panacur..DUH doing nothing works better than safeguard/panacur and once again which worm did it do better than...OH I DON'T KNOW I DON'T FECAL TO KNOW!! but golly gee they look good 

And no I won't quit, this subject kills more goats in the south than anything else on the internet. Sure we would love to never have to use chemicals on our farms. I would bet I use alot less chemicals that you do.

So preach your herbal worming stuff, but make sure you go back on and save all the hundreds of goats each spring from HC from southern posters.

Vicki


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

steff bugielski said:


> The best part about the herbs is you do not deal with the roller coater ride of chemical wormers. The goat gets worms, they are not so bad then the worms get worse you worm, the worms all go away. The goat goes outside she eats the grass she gets worms they are not too bad they get worse you worm the goat, the worms go away.
> With the herbs the worms are kept at bay period.
> I wish every one would at least try them. Wouldn't it be great if we all could stop using the chemicals.
> I did the same thing when I started on them. I wormed them then started with the herbs the very next weekend. I did have 2 out of 20 that needed to be wormed with chemicals this spring but that was far better than doing all 20. The big plus is no milk withdrawal, Nothing worse than having customers wanting your milk and you are dumping it to the pigs at $9 a gallon.
> I have been using them for about 2 years now and I love them. You are right they look great and milk great.


See why I put her on Ignore.......See post #5


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Vicki knows her goat poo. You might want to read and learn.:clap:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Rose said:


> Vicki knows her goat poo. You might want to read and learn.:clap:


Maybe but haveing the attitude of a mean little dog that bites when disagreed with isn't necessary or helpful.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Posts are much like email. Your inner voice reading effects the words that are actually on the screen.

I see her words as passionate in support of what works (and what is PROVEN) for goat health.

:duel:


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

Vicki is correct in everything she says. If you doubt her then you must start opening your eyes. Herbs are not magic. They have simple chemicals in them. In some cases these have been looked at in a lab setting and have been found to have some anti-parasite effect. But because this has been found in a lab doesn't mean that effect will be in the bag of herbs that you buy from some supplier. In many cases the effect of the herbs has been been very limited. 
Many times there are other reasons why our goats will look and milk great for us. We tend to think it may be the herbs, when in reality it can be a number of things. Plenty of space, clean food to eat, protein, adequate minerals, copper, healthy immune system, cold weather which causes the parasites to go dormant...lots of reasons. 

Not necessarily the herbs you give on an infrequent basis. 

It's worth it to find the studies on herbs and read them and then see if you could possibly duplicate them in your environment....If your goats really look great- Don't give the herbs all the credit of good management. You get some credit for being able to pick up on what your goats need, too. 

To look at herb from a clinical point of view. We really need much more study before we can say that herbs, and other natural products, are as consistent as de-wormers. We are not there yet.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

stanb999 said:


> *See why I put her on Ignore*.......See post #5


I'm guessing it would have to be that you dont like facts?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm guessing it would have to be that you dont like facts?


Nope, it was personal attacks that made me do it. What I find very interesting is that I've been posting here for a very long time. General chat is civil to some of these folks. What is funnier is you made the list..... So BYE.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

stanb999 said:


> Nope, it was personal attacks that made me do it. What I find very interesting is that I've been posting here for a very long time. General chat is civil to some of these folks. What is funnier is you made the list.....


So how is what youre doing not a personal attack?
It had nothing at all to do with the OP
And if you mean your "ignore" list, thats YOUR loss, not mine


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

And I forgot to actually tell you about our experience....

So in 2004 we began with Molly's wormer. We fecal every two months. As we began pulling our feeding practices together and improving our management we had a consistently low worm count. Worm counts would rise towards the fall and after periods of wet weather. A number of times we would need to use a chemical on a few animals. I gradually got the idea that these animals were not as strong as others in dealing with the parasites. We culled them eventually. No sense in allowing them to pass the genes on. Worm counts would also rise after kidding. After kidding we would use a chemical de-wormer. Molly's wouldn't effect the worm loads after kidding at all. We saw this consistently. We encourage a healthy immune system through our management practices, and this allows the goats to live with a low number of parasites, however we never hesitate to give a chemical de-wormer when necessary. 

Some of my goats have a tenuous relationship with the milk pail and we began to notice that they wouldn't milk as well if they were not wormed. Once wormed they could produce as much as an extra cup of milk for us. (These are Niggies.) That extra cup told us that the animals were being robbed of nutrients that could go in the milk pail.
Nowadays we worm the adults after kidding, and pre breeding which is in the fall, usually when it's raining up here. I manage my animals so that they are healthy, and in good flesh. I never like to see a thin milking animal. Our conclusion is that a herbal wormer doesn't help as much as other things. Since 2004 we have gone off and on the herbs and have always checked with fecal floats. We have low egg counts consistently and the herbs don't seem to affect them much. 

Alot of what you are going to worm with depends on what is going on in your herd of course. Since moving onto this property we have had to use a flukicide and treat for miningeal worms due to our local conditions. I sincerely doubt herbs would touch these problems. Not too long ago Vicki posted a study on Molly's herbal wormer which you should read. Maybe we can dig that up again and re-post it.


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## goatsareus (Jun 23, 2007)

stanb999 said:


> See why I put her on Ignore.......See post #5



you put vicki on ignor?

are you nuts?

i can't believe any one who cares for goats would put vicki on ignor

forget the delivery; she's got the content

scheesh


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

goatsareus said:


> you put vicki on ignor?
> 
> are you nuts?
> 
> ...


Acually their are about 12 from this forum that I put on my list. These are the only ones I every chose to do it to. I've been called out on many occations on this message board. But they went too far. So you see the thing is I'm just to darn busy and forgetful to remember not to comment on those that know everything. So I made it easy for myself. Yes, I know it's kinda lazy. But it works for me. I've already seen a few of the names on the other forums here. It's nice to leave them hang.


Edited to add: Sorry for the Hijack 'Sherrynboo'


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

I am fecal-ing (is that even a word?) and have been using the formula #2 of Molly's wormer and have seen no difference in the egg count, but had a low count to begin with. I would not use an herbal wormer that contains wormwood on any lactating animal, and I can say this with the utmost confidence because I know my herbs, darnit! Herbs are what I use to treat my family. They ARE medicine, and should be treated with the same caution as you would any other medication. I am nursing and have small children and no way is wormwood going anywhere near them. I believe the formula we have been using just makes the gut less favorable to parasites. There's nothing in there to harm, but since I've been doing fecals, I'm not so sure it's helping or not. I fecal monthly, and if we see an increase, I'll use ivermectin, since we can still use that here.

Stan, you're the single most abrasive poster on this board. Vicki might be rough around the edges, but at least there is a TON of information in her posts. You just post random bits of nothingness just to watch the ----- storm that ensues, because....I dunno...why do you do it? Sexual deprivation or something?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Lada said:


> I am fecal-ing (is that even a word?) and have been using the formula #2 of Molly's wormer and have seen no difference in the egg count, but had a low count to begin with. I would not use an herbal wormer that contains wormwood on any lactating animal, and I can say this with the utmost confidence because I know my herbs, darnit! Herbs are what I use to treat my family. They ARE medicine, and should be treated with the same caution as you would any other medication. I am nursing and have small children and no way is wormwood going anywhere near them. I believe the formula we have been using just makes the gut less favorable to parasites. There's nothing in there to harm, but since I've been doing fecals, I'm not so sure it's helping or not. I fecal monthly, and if we see an increase, I'll use ivermectin, since we can still use that here.
> 
> Stan, you're the single most abrasive poster on this board. Vicki might be rough around the edges, but at least there is a TON of information in her posts. You just post random bits of nothingness just to watch the ----- storm that ensues, because....I dunno...why do you do it? Sexual deprivation or something?



BYE BYE.


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

LOL! Ah well...at least I'm in good company!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Sadly alot of men have problems with intelligent women. If a man had written my posts Stan would be fine with it. 

I am, I admit it freely, very very passionate about new folks not getting the shaft with their first goats, about basic good management. New people have no way of deserning what content is good and what content isn't. Sure once you have been doing it awhile change that management as you learn to fecal, blood test etc...but not because someone says so on the internet without proof.

This is all way to expensive to be a hobby, it is way to much time away from family to not make money off of it. The goats can turn homeschooling SAH moms into stay at home working moms who make real money off their places...I sadly didn't know about homeschooling but it is what I did. I have never worked off my farm. I raised 3 kids, and now 3 grandchildren, my barns, my fun are all off my goats income. Not one dime of family money goes to my goats or my hobbies.

It's also why I can't use a 50$ billy goat like Stan's, manly or not, on my dairy girls and get $50 for kids. Darn forgot he isn't reading 

And it's why I will not sit here and not at least give some facts after posts that contain none. Vicki


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Vicki, I think you are always fair and put the facts out there. The attitude is in the readers mind. I think most people expect attitude in a disagreement, so when they read something that disagrees with what they said, they automatically incorporate attitude. 

And I don't say that because I agree with all you say, because I am very much about the use of herbs, more than most that say that. But if I find I'm not educated enough to deal with something naturally, I will fall back on the crutch of drugs. But I know every time I do it, I trade off health in some way. But so many try and use herbs for worming and don't have a clue what they are doing, and don't fecal and their goats die. And I know you have seen this many times, and if this is what someone is going to do, then they are better off getting on a chemical worming regimine. Not only that, but I have learned a lot from you that helps in natural management as well. So I follow the management you teach, trading out parts of it with this or that as I find what works for me.

BTW those who need to be put on ignore the most, probably have the longest ignore lists.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Gosh I couldn't imagine spending time somewhere and ignoring folks. Go to another forum where everyone agrees with you! Now how fun is that 

Ashley I actually use alot of herbal products myself, both for me and my asthma and menopause but also for my goats. But I also understand that there are times I have to use my blasted inhalers or die, and it's the same with my goats..I can't use something I hope works. Vicki


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## HollyBearFarm (May 25, 2008)

Preach on, Sister Vicki! I am one of those SAHM's, who so far has sunk more than two thousand dollars into my herd. Now granted, I had to BUY GOATS and hopefully won't have to do that again for a while. But I cannot afford for this venture to not make money, or at least pay for itself. I also can't afford to buy expensive, very well-bred livestock and not take care of it. I refuse to lose a goat because of something preventable and curable, like worms. 

My personal feelings about chemicals HAVE to take a backseat to the health of my animals. I'm all about all natural, but we have technology for a reason and if there's a problem that is not fixable by herbs I will use a chemical. 

I would much rather tell a customer that I'm short on milk due to necessary worming than tell a customer that I'm short due to the death of one of my milkers.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

HollyBearFarm said:


> Preach on, Sister Vicki! I am one of those SAHM's, who so far has sunk more than two thousand dollars into my herd. Now granted, I had to BUY GOATS and hopefully won't have to do that again for a while. But I cannot afford for this venture to not make money, or at least pay for itself. I also can't afford to buy expensive, very well-bred livestock and not take care of it. I refuse to lose a goat because of something preventable and curable, like worms.
> 
> My personal feelings about chemicals HAVE to take a backseat to the health of my animals. I'm all about all natural, but we have technology for a reason and if there's a problem that is not fixable by herbs I will use a chemical.
> 
> I would much rather tell a customer that I'm short on milk due to necessary worming than tell a customer that I'm short due to the death of one of my milkers.


What does a venomous personality have to do with a SAHM??? My DW is a SAHM. 

I totally agree on taking the best care of your stock. I also agree that it is best to "make money". However if you choose to base your husbandry on toxic chemicals you will be at an eventual loss. 

I prefer to find the problem with the methods used rather than using a crutch. Call me crazy.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Sadly alot of men have problems with intelligent women. If a man had written my posts Stan would be fine with it.


Oh jeeze vickie, your just full of it! I asked you and a host of other people on here a year ago for help with one of my goats. Your advice darn near killed my goat. When all you could do is tell me that i wasn't worming my goat, and that she had a high worm load, and i kept telling you no she didn't you got real snotty about it. I found a intellegent woman that figured out what was wrong with frick. Frick was diabetic.




> I am, I admit it freely, very very passionate about new folks not getting the shaft with their first goats, about basic good management.


Ok, if you are that passionate, why isn't there a list of breeders that have CL and CAE and will sell them to newcomers unsuspectingly available online? 
You know who is selling CL goats and who isn't.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Vicki, I think you are always fair and put the facts out there. The attitude is in the readers mind. I think most people expect attitude in a disagreement, so when they read something that disagrees with what they said, they automatically incorporate attitude.
> 
> And I don't say that because I agree with all you say, because I am very much about the use of herbs, more than most that say that. But if I find I'm not educated enough to deal with something naturally, I will fall back on the crutch of drugs. But I know every time I do it, I trade off health in some way. But so many try and use herbs for worming and don't have a clue what they are doing, and don't fecal and their goats die. And I know you have seen this many times, and if this is what someone is going to do, then they are better off getting on a chemical worming regimine. Not only that, but I have learned a lot from you that helps in natural management as well. So I follow the management you teach, trading out parts of it with this or that as I find what works for me.
> 
> BTW those who need to be put on ignore the most, probably have the longest ignore lists.


Sure she has been sweet as pie. 

She teaches you to go against the FDA and the USDA. This is false teaching period. The "expert" that doesn't follow simple protocols or even acknowledge them. When she was called out on her practices... 

She said.... I'm not legal and I don't care about such things...
I said she shouldn't be suggesting such things to people....Then the insults started.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Oh yes, the great FDA, I bow to their stupidity.


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## goatsareus (Jun 23, 2007)

well, you know what I don't understand, is this whole concept of making money with goats.

I have read about it often enough, to believe that some of you are serious about this. But to me, this is a foreign concept:shrug:

Make money on goats?

I'll have to think about this one

Years ago we used to joke about this, but haven't given it any thought recently. When we did think about it, we put a very high price on the enjoyability of having goats. It made us feel better when we examined the fencing, barn, tractor, fuel, baling twine, stainless steel pails, feed and medicine costs associated with keeping goats.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

"My personal feelings about chemicals HAVE to take a backseat to the health of my animals. I'm all about all natural, but we have technology for a reason and if there's a problem that is not fixable by herbs I will use a chemical." 
Hollybear

There are some natural remedies I have tried that have not worked on my goats. When I had a few with chiroptic mange bleach water did not wipe it out, nor did vinegar water., tried to smother them with bag balm they had to be (eeek) poisened with chemicals.

I was warned early on from very experienced breeders in this venture..Do not use herbal wormers they do not work effectively. 
So I poisen the buggars 
Some of you in the south have high levels of resistance to certain wormers. 
In a perfect world I would certainly use all natural all the time. But if what I use doesnt work, in any given situation, I have to use chemicals.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Oh yes, the great FDA, I bow to their stupidity.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Goat Servant said:


> "My personal feelings about chemicals HAVE to take a backseat to the health of my animals. I'm all about all natural, but we have technology for a reason and if there's a problem that is not fixable by herbs I will use a chemical."
> 
> 
> There are some natural remedies I have tried that have not worked on my goats. When I had a few with chiroptic mange bleach water did not wipe it out, nor did vinegar water., tried to smother them with bag balm they had to be (eeek) poisened with chemicals.
> ...


Think about it. The ones who scream "worm" are the ones with the most issues.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

goatsareus said:


> well, you know what I don't understand, is this whole concept of making money with goats.
> 
> I have read about it often enough, to believe that some of you are serious about this. But to me, this is a foreign concept:shrug:
> 
> ...



While I agree that it can be quite a challenge. It is possible and should be strived for.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

well, i do not understand why people can make such a fuss about herbal or chemical.
matter of fact, both can kill if there is lack of knowledge how to use them.
an appropriate comment to the post from steff would/should have been to advise doing fecal check and make aware that certain herbals might not work in the o.p's geographical area as well as they might be in NY. no need to take steff apart and in my view has nothing to do with being intelligent.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

susanne said:


> well, i do not understand why people can make such a fuss about herbal or chemical.
> matter of fact, both can kill if there is lack of knowledge how to use them.
> an appropriate comment to the post from steff would/should have been to advise doing fecal check and make aware that certain herbals might not work in the o.p's geographical area as well as they might be in NY. no need to take steff apart and in my view has nothing to do with being intelligent.


I agree. Test and see if it's working for you. If it works, great! If it's not working, then you may need to rethink the "way" in which you are giving it, or you may need to switch to something else all together.

Just because we as people have the ability to make chemicals does not make it right. Heaven knows how many chemicals have been put on the market only to be recalled some years later because they're dangerous to people. But it doesn't make the people that use them wrong.

Nor does it make the people that like to stick to natural or herbal wrong either nor are they "less intelligent" just because they stick to herbal. It's an arrogant statement in my opinion to say that no one should use herbal wormers. :nono: Maybe it works for that person. Who knows? Each person should have the freedom to choose what they will use and not put other people down just because they choose something different. Neither is necessarily better then the other. 

I have respect for Vicki and her knowledge, but I've also seen her be wrong too, though she'd probably never admit that. Just because Vicki says so doesn't make it Bible gospel. Each person needs to take what others have to say in stride and do what they feel is wise for their own farm and then own up to the consequences of that decision be they right or be they wrong.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

"Nor does it make the people that like to stick to natural or herbal wrong either nor are they "less intelligent" just because they stick to herbal. It's an arrogant statement in my opinion to say that no one should use herbal wormers. Maybe it works for that person. Who knows? Each person should have the freedom to choose what they will use and not put other people down just because they choose something different. Neither is necessarily better then the other."

I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this statement. It fairly drips with relativism and tolerance. 

Let's see. Chemicals that have been tested upteem times and confirmed to have a "x" amount of effectiveness are the same as some herbs blended in a food processer by someone hoping to make a quick buck. 

Hmmm. 

If you are talking about the effectiveness of chemicals killing parasites then chemicals are clearly better than herbs. As far as I know these herbs blends are almost completely non-tested products. The few tests I have seen have all been inconclusive or negative. Go by the evidence, and you will see hundreds of studies that prove they work. Try finding the same for herbs.....

As you probably realize, there are lots of folks out there who want to take advantage of others for their own pecuniary good. 

If people don't like to use chemicals because they have a fear of them, they shouldn't state that herbs are better or equal to chemicals. This misleads others.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> "Nor does it make the people that like to stick to natural or herbal wrong either nor are they "less intelligent" just because they stick to herbal. It's an arrogant statement in my opinion to say that no one should use herbal wormers. Maybe it works for that person. Who knows? Each person should have the freedom to choose what they will use and not put other people down just because they choose something different. Neither is necessarily better then the other."
> 
> I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this statement. It fairly drips with relativism and tolerance.
> 
> ...



And you need to do your study. Did you know that most chemicals have their roots from a plant or some sort? Sooo....just because it doesn't have a name you can't pronounce it's better? Our society is poinsoning itself and it's critters by the chemicals we dump into their systems.

I'm not anti-chemical. We use chemical wormers. Why? Cause we find they work better here then herbal. BUT, we ourselves use herbal medicines as much as possible. But herbs are every bit as strong as chemicals if not stronger if you do your research. Ask any pregnant woman why she won't drink Black Cohash tea. It's an herb. A very powerful herb. Herbs were used for centuries before chemical medicines came into existence and those stemmed from herbal medicine. 

Am I tolerant? To some degree. I'm not going to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't use on their own bodies or in the bodies of their animals. If you think chemicals are so great, then maybe you need to read all the research behind aspertame chemical sweetner. Man in his brilliance.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

Goat Servant said:


> "My personal feelings about chemicals HAVE to take a backseat to the health of my animals. I'm all about all natural, but we have technology for a reason and if there's a problem that is not fixable by herbs I will use a chemical."
> Hollybear
> 
> There are some natural remedies I have tried that have not worked on my goats. When I had a few with chiroptic mange bleach water did not wipe it out, nor did vinegar water., tried to smother them with bag balm they had to be (eeek) poisened with chemicals.
> ...


Heres a novel idea, why not use both!


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> "Nor does it make the people that like to
> 
> If people don't like to use chemicals because they have a fear of them, they shouldn't state that herbs are better or equal to chemicals. This misleads others.


As a person who uses herbs to deal with my heart disease, I know and anyone who uses herbs successfully knows that no herb, or chemical or medicine works the same on two people. The same for animals. The reason is body chemistry is different on everyone. 

For example, I take a antidep med for surgery caused depression. My mg is 10 mg. The same med is used on a couple other people i know that have less severe depression than I do. Their mg is 40mg though. Why? Their body chemistry. Different than mine. I respond to a lower dosage.

Same thing with herbs. Same thing with wormers. 

So just because a herbal wormer does't work for one person, doesn't mean i tdoesn't work. It means they have'nt found the dosage or combination needed to be successful


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I have respect for Vicki and her knowledge, but I've also seen her be wrong too, though she'd probably never admit that.
...................

You do not even know me to even have this opinion. And we all know that putting a but in the middle of a sentence really means...I don't really believe anything I just wrote, only anything after the but.

At least with me you don't get fake. Vicki


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I have respect for Vicki and her knowledge, but I've also seen her be wrong too, though she'd probably never admit that.
> ...................
> 
> You do not even know me to even have this opinion. And we all know that putting a but in the middle of a sentence really means...I don't really believe anything I just wrote, only anything after the but.
> ...


And you don't know this person either, and you don't know that she says what she means. She has no problem telling someone she doesn't respect them if she doesn't respect them. I know she has said she thought you have a lot of book knowlege but that your application of that knowlege is somewhat flawed because you are wrong quite often. That being the case, I have never seen you admit it when you were. Just like in my case when i asked you for help a year ago, and against good advice, i dang near lost my goats to your advice. I didn't know any better cause i was a newbie at them, and was learning the hard way.

I don't know what you mean by not getting fake. That wasn't the point she was making. the point she was making is that what you say is not gospel. You are wrong on many occasions and when you are you won't ever admit to it. I have seen that myself in your posts when you are called on it.

One thing i learned a long time ago, no matter what i learn about goats, i will always be learning and will always have times where i am wrong on something. And when i am, i'll admit it and move on after learning something new. 

Just because you ran a dairy doesn't make you infallible.  

Heck i have noticed how your posts on CL you come across as the expert on it. Sorry but if the EXPERTS can't even come up with a baseline on CL, you can't possibly come up with a baseline. The more i read on it the more i find that NO ONE can be assured they have a CL free herd. Even the testing is flawed.


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## OpossumArcher (Sep 10, 2007)

I guess, Can't we all get along would be a pointless insert about now :duel:
1st.Test your goats.
2nd.Find a wormer you want to use.
3rd. Use the one you pick.
4th. Test again
5th. If it worked Awesome, if not
6th. Repeat 2-5

L8a all
Matt :stirpot:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> "Nor does it make the people that like to stick to natural or herbal wrong either nor are they "less intelligent" just because they stick to herbal. It's an arrogant statement in my opinion to say that no one should use herbal wormers. Maybe it works for that person. Who knows? Each person should have the freedom to choose what they will use and not put other people down just because they choose something different. Neither is necessarily better then the other."
> 
> I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this statement. It fairly drips with relativism and tolerance.
> 
> ...



The reason I say use them in limited amounts and not as a regimen. Is those same studies show them to be harmful to goats. This is why they don't label the wormers for goats. Yes, a vet will tell you to use them if they are infested. But you have other issues if your goats routinely get an infestation.

I doubt that folks figure the chemical wormers aren't effective. They just wonder about the other effects. I also doubt that folks figure the herbal remedies are as tested for effectiveness. But if you are doing things right a little help along the way that a herbal remedy can give is generally enough.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

Thank You Susanne. 

I should have told every one that location might need something different but That was not what we were talking about. We were talking our experience with Molly"s.

Vicki I am sorry It might have only been 1 1/2 years I have been using the herbs and you are right I had a bad tape worm problem and Coccidia prior to putting them on the herbs. Two kiddings now I have not had a case of Coccidia or tapes in my herd. The only difference is the herbs. If you do not want to use them don't I don't care I just thought it would be nice if more people could keep worms at bay without nasty chemicals. You act as if every part of the country is worm heaven. Fiasco farm is in Tennessee, not the frozen tundra . By the way NY is not the frozen tundra either. Yes we get cold winters, it even freezes but if you were really as smart as you think you would know tons of goats die here in NY due to worms. Many people just do not worm either way. It has less to do with the freezing winters. I have had my vet look at the herbs and he is very satisfied with the job it has done. He has started recommending it to all his goat clients.
Of course I tell my customers about the herbs, they buy from me because of it. I do not give the wormwood to lactating does. Just because I use the herbs do not think for one minute I am an idiot. On the days I use the wormwood I bring the milk into the house for myself or sell to those who I know very well.
It is not my job to tell folks to fecal while on the herbs, I only do a fecal if I think they are not working.

I am an intelligent woman , I just choose not to tell every one else how intelligent I am.


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> Let's see. Chemicals that have been tested upteem times and confirmed to have a "x" amount of effectiveness are the same as some herbs blended in a food processer by someone hoping to make a quick buck.


I took a FAMACHA class sponsored by Cornell University.
The number one point they made is that reliance on chemical wormers is 
short sighted.

The rate at which worms are becoming resistant to chemical wormers is snowballing - 
the biggest problem, they said, is there are no new chemicals coming down the pipe. Cydectin is the last hoorah - 

They even predicted that problem will become so severe that most southern farms will eventually be forced out of sheep and goats. 



Their bottom line: 
Get used to worms. Breed for animals that can tolerate a worm load. 
Use chemicals as infrequently as possible to decrease the speed of resistance. 
Do routine fecals and FAMACHA checks, so you will become learn what egg count results in visible loss of condition, and you can breed your most resistant animals. 
Their advice on herbals and other alternatives - they had no studies to 
support their use, but if you're keeping track of egg counts, you can test it for yourself.


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

Steff, I support your use of herbs. Like I said, I ONLY use herbs on my family. NO traditional medicines. Of course, I feel that I should add that if the herbs didn't work, I WOULD go to the doctor and get a conventional medication, but we haven't got to that point yet.

BUT...I really feel you should at least type something up on the possible side effects of wormword for your clients, if you are using it and then selling the milk - even to close friends. You just don't know what happens to that milk after it leaves your hands, who is drinking it, etc.; and wormwood is serious stuff. Unfortunately, we have no idea if or for how long it can stay in the milk, so I would err on the side of caution and inform ALL your clients that you're using it and what the side effects are. Just because you discard that day's milk...you may still be passsing on milk that (IMO) isn't safe for EVERY consumer.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Lada said:


> Steff, I support your use of herbs. Like I said, I ONLY use herbs on my family. NO traditional medicines. Of course, I feel that I should add that if the herbs didn't work, I WOULD go to the doctor and get a conventional medication, but we haven't got to that point yet.
> 
> BUT...I really feel you should at least type something up on the possible side effects of wormword for your clients, if you are using it and then selling the milk - even to close friends. You just don't know what happens to that milk after it leaves your hands, who is drinking it, etc.; and wormwood is serious stuff. Unfortunately, we have no idea if or for how long it can stay in the milk, so I would err on the side of caution and inform ALL your clients that you're using it and what the side effects are. Just because you discard that day's milk...you may still be passsing on milk that (IMO) isn't safe for EVERY consumer.


I feel the same warning should be given if you are using a chemical wormer even more so if you are using it off label. Thats one of the reasons I have a real problem with the advise being given to newbies to use all these commercial wormers. They are generally unaware of the risks. To the goat and themselves. It isn't even suggested that they may cause harm. But in fact that is why they aren't labeled for goats. Because they can cause damage or complications. The standard "they just don't do the tests" Is bull. They do and they fail to find a safe level for non-prescription uses.

So we totally agree on disclosure. :goodjob:


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I have respect for Vicki and her knowledge, but I've also seen her be wrong too, though she'd probably never admit that.
> ...................
> 
> You do not even know me to even have this opinion. And we all know that putting a but in the middle of a sentence really means...I don't really believe anything I just wrote, only anything after the but.
> ...



And you do not know me, but I do know a little about you from your posts and barelahh is right in that I say what I feel. You do have a lot of knowledge and I've seen you give good suggestions. BUT, (there's that word again), I have also seen you give bad advice and I've also seen you give one piece of advice to cover everything that can be wrong with a goat, and then when that person comes back and says, well, it wasn't that, I have yet to ever see you say, well, I guess I was wrong. So, from your posts alone I can tell enough about you to say what I say. Maybe you're not that way in real life. I don't know. People tend to be different online then in RL. All I can judge is what I read. But I do know when Barelahh had trouble with his goats and we brought those goats here to save them and I could see what was wrong and I knew the advice you were giving just didn't jive and yet even when he came back on and said what the problem was, you never once apologized for ripping him to shreds on here for how he cared for his goats, in fact, I've never seen you apologize to anyone that you fell you have to rip apart because they either chose to do their own thing and ended up in a mess or didn't follow your advice at all and you just can't stand it if someone does something different and you rip them apart and never once say you're sorry for that. :nono:


I absolutely agree with the disclosure thing, for both chemical and herbal anything going into your goats. Who knows how long that stuff will stay in their system and go into the milk. God never designed our bodies to process a bunch of foreign substances, but I also know that we live in a world where things aren't perfect and animals get worms and so forth. BUT for crying out loud, just because someone chooses different does not make them any worse or any better than anyone else. 

:soap:


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

isn't it nice that everybody in this "Land of the free" can have an opinion?
what kind of person can come and say no, you don't have an opinion about me 
dictators????? LOL


if somebody uses herbs the right way, adjust management, regularly fecal checks, i don't see why this should not work. maybe this will be the only way in a couple of years when all the antelmintics loose the effectiveness. Btw. most those chemicals are not tested on goats either, of label but still get a promotion on forums as if they are. cydectin, relatively young product, used oral, off label, anybody tested the residue in the body fat from the carrier? anybody (maybe you vicki, or do you only rely on your friends?) have tested the milk and have a personal withdrawl time based on that test????

until then, no method is better than the other


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

"And you need to do your study. Did you know that most chemicals have their roots from a plant or some sort? Sooo....just because it doesn't have a name you can't pronounce it's better? Our society is poinsoning itself and it's critters by the chemicals we dump into their systems.

I'm not anti-chemical. We use chemical wormers. Why? Cause we find they work better here then herbal. BUT, we ourselves use herbal medicines as much as possible. But herbs are every bit as strong as chemicals if not stronger if you do your research. Ask any pregnant woman why she won't drink Black Cohash tea. It's an herb. A very powerful herb. Herbs were used for centuries before chemical medicines came into existence and those stemmed from herbal medicine."

THIS IS PART OF YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF SYSTEM. 

Many, I wouldn't say most, chemicals have their roots in plants, this is true. HOWEVER, the nice thing about modern medicines is that we have removed the harmful side effects that go along with herbs in the natural state. Herbs in their natural state are very different than the medicines we have derived from them. 

You should go and look up what they had to do to an animal prior to 1940 to deworm an animal. The agents they used were often quite toxic, and it was a bit of a guess as to whether or not it would help or kill an animal. Our modern methods are blessings for the animal and the owner, as we can give a dose without fearing that we kill our goats, or kill their livers or whatever. We can also know that the wormer is going to work, as long as resistance hasn't developed. There isn't any guesswork or witchcraft involved. Or try this, that and the other thing and meanwhile the animals dies...

Now take your herbal blends that you use. Can you actually point to any data, real hard data, studies and so forth that show you without a doubt that they have been shown to kill any worm or parasite? Find me that data-- and then I'll believe what you say. 

Stay on topic, don't talk about herbs in general. Talk about the herbs in Molly's Herbal De-wormer if you can. Don't compare apples and oranges, herbs to kill parasites are not the same thing as herbs a pregnant woman might use. 

"Herbs were used for centuries before chemical medicines came into existence and those stemmed from herbal medicine."

Personal belief system again. There is actually very little documented evidence in the efficacy of herbs in veterinary medicine. For instance, if you read the books by James Herriot you will know that many of the remedies they used had little effect prior to the manufacture of modern drugs. 

Every one is free to believe what they wish, but you should ask yourself if you are really free to deceive others or give advice that could harm others? If you love other people, why would you allow them to do something that may be harmful without a word of advice or caution?


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

The reason I say use them in limited amounts and not as a regimen. Is those same studies show them to be harmful to goats. This is why they don't label the wormers for goats."

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think that may be wrong. My understanding of this problems is that they don't label things for goats because the figure they can't make enough money on goats to do the millions of dollars worth of testing on them. There wouldn't be enough return for the pharmaceutical companies to invest in testing for goats, in other words. paraphrasing Dr Johnsons lecture from last year...


"I doubt that folks figure the chemical wormers aren't effective. They just wonder about the other effects. I also doubt that folks figure the herbal remedies are as tested for effectiveness. But if you are doing things right a little help along the way that a herbal remedy can give is generally enough."

It shouldn't be up the individual herd owner to test the product for effectiveness, though. A product labeled as a de-wormer should act like a de-wormer. In other words, it should kill parasites in a safe and effective way. I don't see that happening with my herd, nor in the herds that I have had to consult for. 

Calling it a de-wormer leads people to think it kill parasites. What I hear lots of folks say is that it "creates an environment that discourages parasites in the animals digestive system." or words to that effect. In reality, there are many things that do this. There are things that are more effective and important, than the use of these herbs. I believe that people should focus on these other things rather than get hung up on the herbs. 

These other things are proper nutrition, protein, copper a clean environment, biodiversity, rotation, ect. This all needs to be pulled together in order to reduce the chemical use in our herds.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> HOWEVER, the nice thing about modern medicines is that we have removed the harmful side effects that go along with herbs in the natural state. Herbs in their natural state are very different than the medicines we have derived from them.



:rotfl::rotfl:
that is exactly why some man made medicine needs be taken off the market because of all the side effects. some even with deadly outcome. not to talk about all the lawsuits because some dr told their patients to take modern medicine, all because they love their patient and more their money. 
too funny, really.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> "And you need to do your study. Did you
> 
> THIS IS PART OF YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF SYSTEM.
> 
> Many, I wouldn't say most, chemicals have their roots in plants, this is true. HOWEVER, the nice thing about modern medicines is that we have removed the harmful side effects that go along with herbs in the natural state. Herbs in their natural state are very different than the medicines we have derived from them.


I think you had better go back and study up on herbs. Herbs do not have harmful side effects to them.  It is the individual who doesn't know their herbs and combinations of them that are harmful. 



> You should go and look up what they had to do to an animal prior to 1940 to deworm an animal.


I actually have some of the books on goat care and maintianence from before the 40's. Their very good. 



> There isn't any guesswork or witchcraft involved. Or try this, that and the other thing and meanwhile the animals dies...


No witchcraft is your personal belief system at work. There is no witchcraft in herbal medicines. 




> Now take your herbal blends that you use. Can you actually point to any data, real hard data, studies and so forth that show you without a doubt that they have been shown to kill any worm or parasite? Find me that data-- and then I'll believe what you say.


Sure can. Use black walnut hulls all the time on my animals. Non toxic to them too. But toxic to the worms.  



> Stay on topic, don't talk about herbs in general. Talk about the herbs in Molly's Herbal De-wormer if you can. Don't compare apples and oranges, herbs to kill parasites are not the same thing as herbs a pregnant woman might use.


LOL a pregnant woman WOULDN'T use Black cohash tea! That would abort her baby! Duh. IF black cohash can abort a baby, then how can you say that herbs cannot kill worms and parasites??




> "Herbs were used for centuries before chemical medicines came into existence and those stemmed from herbal medicine."
> 
> Personal belief system again. There is actually very little documented evidence in the efficacy of herbs


Lets see. Foxglove is digitalis which is used today for heart patients. Will kill someone who doesn't have heart disease.
Marigold give you pyrethrin which is used for fly control and things like that in many chemical fly sprays and flea control remedies 
Hawthorn leaf berry and flower controls heart rate and strengthens heart muscles in not only human but animals as well.
We can go on and on and on. Study herbs before you make your claims against them. 

To be quite frank anyone that ignores any form of medicine including herbs, western, ayrvedic, is cutting thier medical care drastically. THey all work together to give us complete control over our care as well as our animals care.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

susanne said:


> :rotfl::rotfl:
> that is exactly why some man made medicine needs be taken off the market because of all the side effects. some even with deadly outcome. not to talk about all the lawsuits because some dr told their patients to take modern medicine, all because they love their patient and more their money.
> too funny, really.



I agree. 


[email protected] LaudoDeumFa, I'm guessing you're a chemist or in that sort of field. My dad is a chemist and thinks just like you. 

Do you know how many chemicals.........man made chemicals that were thought to be sooo great have been pulled off the market because they cause cancer or worse? Man's not perfect and his studies are flawed a lot of times. And do you know how many millions of dollars are wrapped up in the finding of new drugs, new poisons and so forth? It's ridiculous. 

Does Molly's herbs work? Possibly when mixed with other good practices, but chemical wormers sure aren't the answer to poor goat management. My whole point is everyone having a fit about those that choose herbal wormers because they don't work IYO. If they're doing the fecals and they're working, then that's their choice. No one else's. 

But I will say this for all the people that love their chemical wormers, as our society becomes more and more aware of chemicals and what they do to our bodies and as people move more and more toward "organic", you who use chemical wormers will not be appealing to them nor can you claim organic in any way shape or form. Only those that use the herbs will still be able to claim organic and that's becoming a big huge selling point to people these days. No one wants meat, eggs or milk with a bunch of residue from a bunch of stuff that they can't even pronounce.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

"Herbs do not have harmful side effects to them."

Do you really believe that?!

This is why I say it part of your personal belief system. You believe in herbs, or other estoric "medicines" despite physical proof. 

" Foxglove is digitalis which is used today for heart patients. Will kill someone who doesn't have heart disease.
Marigold give you pyrethrin which is used for fly control and things like that in many chemical fly sprays and flea control remedies
Hawthorn leaf berry and flower controls heart rate and strengthens heart muscles in not only human but animals as well.
We can go on and on and on. Study herbs before you make your claims against them. "

None of these are in Molly's herbal wormer. None of these are used for parasite control in rumanints. None of these have anything to do with goats or the topic. I am not talking about these herbs, however I'll just pull up some common info on them to illustrate this. 

wikipedia:The pyrethrins are contained in the seed cases of the perennial plant pyrethrum (Chrysanthemum cinerariaefolium), which is grown commercially to supply the insecticide. Although extracts of the plant were already used as insecticide, the structure was first published by Hermann Staudinger and Lavoslav RuÅ¾i&#269;ka in 1924.[3] Pyrethrins are neurotoxins that 
attack the nervous systems of all insects. When present in amounts not fatal to insects, they still appear to have an insect repellent effect. Pyrethrins are gradually replacing organophosphates and organochlorides as the pesticide of first choice.

Pyrethrins are harmful to fish, birds, and mammals, including humans. In humans, pyrethrin irritates the eyes, skin, and respiratory systems, and it may cause other harmful effects. One study suggested a link between maternal pyrethrin use and autism in children.[4] The study indicated that mothers of autistic children were twice as likely to have washed a pet dog with a flea shampoo containing pyrethrin while they were pregnant.

Not what _I _want around my farm, naturally derived or not. To go on...

Digitalis: Digitalis works by inhibiting sodium-potassium ATPase. This results in an increased intracellular concentration of sodium, which in turn increases intracellular calcium by passively decreasing the action of the sodium-calcium exchanger in the sarcolemma. The increased intracellular calcium gives a positive inotropic effect. It also has a vagal effect on the parasympathetic nervous system, and as such is used in reentrant cardiac arrhythmias and to slow the ventricular rate during atrial fibrillation. The dependence on the vagal effect means that digitalis is not effective when a patient has a high sympathetic nervous system drive, which is the case with acutely ill persons, and also during exercise.

Depending on the species, the digitalis plant may contain several deadly physiological and chemically related cardiac and steroidal glycosides. Thus, the digitalis has earned several more sinister monikers: Dead Manâs Bells, and Witchesâ Gloves.

The entire plant is poisonous (including the roots and seeds), although the leaves of the upper stem are particularly potent, with just a nibble being enough to potentially cause death. Early symptoms of ingestion include nausea, vomiting, anorexia, diarrhea, abdominal pain, wild hallucinations, delirium, and severe headache. Depending on the severity of the toxicosis the victim may later suffer irregular and slow pulse, tremors, various cerebral disturbances, especially of a visual nature (unusual colour visions with objects appearing yellowish to green, and blue halos around lights), convulsions, and deadly disturbances of the heart. For a case description, see the paper by Lacassie.[4]

There have been instances of people confusing digitalis with the harmless Symphytum (comfrey) plant (which is often brewed into a tea) with fatal consequences. Other fatal accidents involve children drinking the water in a vase containing digitalis plants. Drying does not reduce the toxicity of the plant. The plant is toxic to animals including all classes of livestock, as well as cats and dog

Digitalis toxicity (Digitalis intoxication) results from an overdose of digitalis and causes anorexia, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea, as well as sometimes resulting in xanthopsia (jaundiced or yellow vision) and the appearance of blurred outlines (halos). Bradycardia also occurs. Because a frequent side effect of digitalis is reduction of appetite, some individuals have used the drug as a weight loss aid.

*Digitalis is a classic example of a drug derived from a plant formerly used by folklorists and herbalists: herbalists have largely abandoned its use because of its narrow therapeutic index and the difficulty of determining the amount of active drug in herbal preparations.* Once the usefulness of digitalis in regulating pulse was understood, it was employed for a variety of purposes, including the treatment of epilepsy and other seizure disorders, now considered inappropriate. (see wikipedia for the rest of the toxicity issues)

These are very potent herbs. You won't find herbs of this potency in a herbal mix for goat because the makers would get thier butts sued off.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

Sherrynboo said:


> I have read with interest the debate about chemical versus the herbal wormers. I decided to at least try the herbal route to see the outcome. Saturday I will take a stool sample to the vet for inspection. I have been using Molly's herbal wormer for about 2 months now and this doe has never looked better! She is so sleek and shiny, good body weight and great milk production. I am anxious to see what the fecal reveals. She was wormed with Valbazen before she was started on the herbal formula but only once.
> 
> Sherry in GA


Hey, your goat sounds like she is doing very well.

One rule, dont fix it if its not broken and it sounds like nothing is broken. 
I would keep doing what ever works as long as it works. 

I have never tried Molly's so I cant comment there.
Let us know how it goes over time?
I may just give it a try too.


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

Joe, you sure go off topic for someone who wants to stay ON topic.  None of those herbs are in Molly's Herbals, so why do we need to Wikipedia them?

Anyway, here are the herbs that ARE in the tonic, and here is what *I* know to be true about those herbs:

wormwood - highly antibacterial, useful in treating malaria, a chemical component has been extracted and used to create a vaccine against malaria, useful in expelling parasites, very useful in treating antibiotic-resistant diseases. not to be used during pregnancy, lactation, or on the very young because of the thujone content.

garlic, fennel - both of these are common herbs used medicinally and for culinary purposes.

black walnut hull powder - I use this in capsule form for my husband's crohn's disease. it's a thyroid stimulant, and is useful in expelling microbes from the digestive tract. it does this because the tannins in the herb are quite acidic and help to kill and repel alkaline-loving microbes such as yeast. very high in iodine and potassium. the astringent properties help to heal and calm inflamed tissues.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I was illustrating a point regarding the statement that herbs don't have harmful side effects...6e used those herbs in her argument. 

Why use foxglove, perythins, hearththorn, ect to prove that molly's herbal works? Go and ask 6e that. It a very large leap in logic, one which I cannot take.

Sorry I haven't figured out how to quote yet. Forum technology is new to me...

Only one of those herbs has a positive study on it. Do you know what it is?

It is part of arsenal to be used by those who slay Draculum Vampiri.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> I was illustrating a point regarding the statement that herbs don't have harmful side effects...6e used those herbs in her argument.
> 
> Why use foxglove, perythins, hearththorn, ect to prove that molly's herbal works? Go and ask 6e that. It a very large leap in logic, one which I cannot take.
> 
> ...


Uhm, need to learn how to use the quotes. I didn't use those herbs to illustrate anything.  
Go back and read the posts. I believe you were trying to quote Barelahh. All you have to do to quote is to push the quote button under someone's post an it automatically quotes it for you.

What IS in Molly's herbal is black walnut hulls and we know that to be a good wormer if used properly. And if I remember correct, Barelahh did use that as an example. The ONLY herb I used as an example was Black Cohash.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

barelahh said:


> Lets see. Foxglove is digitalis which is used today for heart patients. Will kill someone who doesn't have heart disease.
> Marigold give you pyrethrin which is used for fly control and things like that in many chemical fly sprays and flea control remedies
> Hawthorn leaf berry and flower controls heart rate and strengthens heart muscles in not only human but animals as well.
> We can go on and on and on. Study herbs before you make your claims against them.
> ...



Jo: It was Barelahh you were trying to argue with on those herbs you listed.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa, why do you argue so vehemently against herbs when you run a blogspot on holistic goat care?


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> "Herbs do not have harmful side effects to them."


Yes i do. There are more side effects in chemicals and medicines. Try statin drugs. THey lower cholesterol but cause great pain in the patients that take them. You can lower cholesterol with motherwort, dandylion and prickly ash bark just as effectively with absolutely NO SIDE Effects.




> These are very potent herbs. You won't find herbs of this potency in a herbal mix for goat because the makers would get thier butts sued off.


[/quote]
You just got through telling 6e that herbs aren't effective! Now your saying thier potent. 

Ok staying on topic now mollys herbals. 

Wormwood
The chief constituent is a volatile oil, of which the herb yields in distillation from 0.5 to 1.0 per cent. It is usually dark green, or sometimes blue in colour, and has a strong odour and bitter, acrid taste. The oil contains thujone (absinthol or tenacetone), thujyl alcohol (both free and combined with acetic, isovalerianic, succine and malic acids), cadinene, phellandrene and pinene. The herb also contains the bitter glucoside absinthin, absinthic acid, together with tannin, resin, starch, nitrate of potash and other salts.

---Medicinal Action and Uses---Tonic, stomachic, febrifuge, anthelmintic.

A nervine tonic, particularly helpful against the falling sickness and for flatulence. It is a good remedy for enfeebled digestion and debility. 


Fennel

The best varieties of Fennel yield from 4 to 5 per cent of volatile oil (sp. gr. 0.960 to 0.930), the principal constituents of which are Anethol (50 to 60 per cent) and Fenchone (18 to 22 per cent). Anethol is also the chief constituent of Anise oil.

Fenchone is a colourless liquid possessing a pungent, camphoraceous odour and taste, and when present gives the disagreeable bitter taste to many of the commercial oils. It probably contributes materially to the medicinal properties of the oil, hence only such varieties of Fennel as contain a good proportion of fenchone are suitable for medicinal use.

There are also present in oil of Fennel, d-pinene, phellandrine, anisic acid and anisic aldehyde. Schimmel mentions limonene as also at times present as a constituent. 
---Medicinal Action and Uses---On account of its aromatic and carminative properties, Fennel fruit is chiefly used medicinally with purgatives to allay their tendency to griping and for this purpose forms one of the ingredients of the well-known compound Liquorice Powder. Fennel water has properties similar to those of anise and dill water: mixed with sodium bicarbonate and syrup, these waters constitute the domestic 'Gripe Water,' used to correct the flatulence of infants. Volatile oil of Fennel has these properties in concentration.

Fennel tea, formerly also employed as a carminative, is made by pouring half a pint of boiling water on a teaspoonful of bruised Fennel seeds.

Syrup prepared from Fennel juice was formerly given for chronic coughs.

Fennel is also largely used for cattle condiments.

It is one of the plants which is said to be disliked by fleas, and powdered Fennel has the effect of driving away fleas from kennels and stables. The plant gives off ozone most readily. 


Black walnut

---Medicinal Action and Uses---The bark and leaves have alterative, laxative, astringent and detergent properties, and are used in the treatment of skin troubles. They are of the highest value for curing scrofulous diseases, herpes, eczema, etc., and for healing indolent ulcers; an infusion of 1 OZ. of dried bark or leaves (slightly more of the fresh leaves) to the pint of boiling water, allowed to stand for six hours, and strained off is taken in wineglassful doses, three times a day, the same infusion being also employed at the same time for outward application. Obstinate ulcers may also be cured with sugar, well saturated with a strong decoction of Walnut leaves.

The bark, dried and powdered, and made into a strong infusion, is a useful purgative.

The husk, shell and peel are sudorific, especially if used when the Walnuts are green. Whilst unripe, the nut has wormdestroying virtues.

The fruit, when young and unripe, makes a wholesome, anti-scorbutic pickle, the vinegar in which the green fruit has been pickled proving a capital gargle for sore and slightly ulcerated throats. Walnut catsup embodies the medicinal virtues of the unripe nuts.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

6e said:


> [email protected] LaudoDeumFa, why do you argue so vehemently against herbs when you run a blogspot on holistic goat care?


ROTFLMAO.... HOlistic goat care and arguing against using herbals. sheesh.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> I was illustrating a point regarding the statement that herbs don't have harmful side effects...6e used those herbs in her argument.


First of all 6e didn't say that i did. Secondly I said its the folks that don't take the time to learn about a herb that causes problems. Its not a side effect if you take a herb and use it for worming when it's usage is for heart disease. Thats not a side effect, thats stupidity. 

Hey did you know that water has a side effect!??? IF you drink enough it'll kill you!


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

Well. I make my own herbal wormer for my goats. I DONT LIKE blackwalnut at all. It makes them dried up (milking) and it is very toxin for horses also. I dont want to make mistake to give that to horses. I use wormwood. I dont have problems with it. I DO use chemical wormers too. It works so well if I combine and it works great that way. I am happy what I am doing.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

deafgoatlady said:


> Well. I make my own herbal wormer for my goats. I DONT LIKE blackwalnut at all. It makes them dried up (milking) and it is very toxin for horses also. I dont want to make mistake to give that to horses. I use wormwood. I dont have problems with it. I DO use chemical wormers too. It works so well if I combine and it works great that way. I am happy what I am doing.


Absolutely DGL, it is toxic to horses. But in all reality, if you can get the wormload down and keep it there with herbal instead of chemical, and then only use chemical when the load spikes, your better off.

The best thing for keeping wormloads down is high pasture. I don't think we have wormed these goats out here since january or february. And their fine. 

ANd on top of that its summer and its wet here. we are watching them though.


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> Only one of those herbs has a positive study on it. Do you know what it is?
> 
> It is part of arsenal to be used by those who slay Draculum Vampiri.


Dude, read up. Just because you have only delved into herbs enough to know that garlic is safe and beneficial, just because that's one of the few herbs that western med. has actually acknowledged, doesn't mean it's the only one for which benefits have been documented. Read. Educate yourself on a topic BEFORE you start try to "educate" the rest of the world. I have some excellent books on herbalism that I can recommend if you're interested.


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

Lada - there has been studies on garlic and sheep. Both UK and US. Even, gasp! USDA sponsored. Proven effective.

READ one of SARE's site for more info - http://www.garlicbarrier.com/2003_SARE_Report.html

Think you may owe [email protected] LaudoDeumFa an apology! 

I have more studies on garlic available to assist you in your herbalist book reading if you are interested...

Andrea


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

My thoughts on Molly's. 

I used to swear by it, honestly. But I am finding out that garlic and good pasture management is just as effective. I was going to apply for a SARE grant this year for an official paid/vet help study - but I was just running a 'FAMACHA' and transient EPD count type study this year - minus a few fence jumpers - I found both to be the same.

Basically, the herbs mixed in Molly's are effective for maintaining good healthy goatie and sheep tummy. It won't help you if you have a situation condusive to worm infestation. Nothing will really - just keep on worming based on FAMACHA, and hten switch to a different wormer when it stops working (which it will).

Key here is good management, breeding stock selection and using dewormers (herbally OR chemically) RESPONSIBLY.

Andrea


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

thatcompchick said:


> Key here is good management, breeding stock selection and using dewormers (herbally OR chemically) RESPONSIBLY.
> 
> Andrea


i so agree


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

thatcompchick said:


> Lada - there has been studies on garlic and sheep. Both UK and US. Even, gasp! USDA sponsored. Proven effective.
> 
> READ one of SARE's site for more info - http://www.garlicbarrier.com/2003_SARE_Report.html
> 
> ...


Huh???? I was not debating the effectiveness of garlic, I was just debating Joe's statement that garlic is the *only* herb for which studies have been done.

I think I'm good on the herb books, thanks. I have even read enough to know that there are effective herbs out there BESIDES garlic!


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

Scientifically though - study wise, it is the only herb that has support via qualified professional research.

Not to say 'it is the only one that works'.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said!

Andrea


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Jan 10, 2004)

"Herbs do not have harmful side effects to them. It is the individual who doesn't know their herbs and combinations of them that are harmful."

Isnt this sort of like saying "guns dont kill people, peeople kill people" or any other such bumper-sticker wisdom?

And cant you say the same about chemical meds? 

A harmful side effect is any undesired effect. Black cohosh can be phenomenal when used to encourage labor to begin. That same effect becomes an unwanted side effect when used in someone who is not 41 weeks pregnant but instead is 14 weeks along! Use herbal. Use chemical. Know that either will have effects beyond that which they have on parasites. Be sure that you are willing to accept the side effects and fecal so that you know whether you are accepting the side effects for good cause or if your preferred method is not working effectively.

FTR I do not see [email protected] to be arguing vehemently against herbs but rather arguing vehemently FOR informed and conscious use of herbs.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Qvrfullmidwife said:


> "Herbs do not have harmful side effects to
> 
> A harmful side effect is any undesired effect. Black cohosh can be phenomenal when used to encourage labor to begin. That same effect becomes an unwanted side effect when used in someone who is not 41 weeks pregnant but instead is 14 weeks along! Use herbal. Use chemical. Know that either will have effects beyond that which they have on parasites. Be sure that you are willing to accept the side effects and fecal so that you know whether you are accepting the side effects for good cause or if your preferred method is not working effectively.
> 
> .


This statement right here just proves this statement:



> "Herbs do not have harmful side effects to them. It is the individual who doesn't know their herbs and combinations of them that are harmful."


It is not that Black Cohosh has harmful side effects, but that the person doesn't know how to use it. Although, as a midwife you also know that midwives almost never advice using Black Cohosh to start labor as it can cause a lot of bleeding. My midwife never advices the use of Black Cohosh. 

I agree that each person needs to choose for themselves what is best for them and they're goats, test to make sure it's working and adjust accordingly. Neither chemical nor herbal is necessarily better than the other.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

Sorry about that 6e, I apologize to you and barelahh for the mix-up. 


I have books about herbalism too. They range from homeopathy all the way the ones that only look at what studies have been done on them only. I am a very firm believer in holistic goat care, but I will only use what I know to effective, safe and useful for my animals. I won't waste time on herbal mixes that are not shown to be effective or useful for the purposes that they are labeled for. 

Garlic is the only herb I have seen positive studies on. I've seen many inconclusive studies, and many which are disturbing in that they do not show much evidence for the faith and belief that is put in them. 

I have personal experience with wormwood poisoning. I have seen neighbors go through it, and I've watched them try to use this stuff to help their animals. It is possible to be on a flaming ship and to go down with it believing it's not on fire, and it is possible to use this and believe your goats are healthy and handling their worm problems well right up till they die. 

I know all this through several years of personal experience of using it and studying it. I won't defend Molly and her claims about her product. She could have had it tested, but she didn't, now did she? She still choose to sell it, though...

I use herbs quite a lot but very specifically. If I use a herb it must it have a solid base in fact for it to be in my medicine cabinet, otherwise it's a waste of time and money. I don't claim to be natural, organic or anything like it. I'm not a chemist, a herbalist, a doctor or a lawyer or anything like that. I'm just cautious. 

Combined approaches are what holistic is about and an animals health matters more to me than being organic.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> Sorry about that 6e, I apologize to you and barelahh for the mix-up.
> 
> 
> I have books about herbalism too. They range from homeopathy all the way the ones that only look at what studies have been done on them only. I am a very firm believer in holistic goat care, but I will only use what I know to effective, safe and useful for my animals. I won't waste time on herbal mixes that are not shown to be effective or useful for the purposes that they are labeled for.
> ...



That's OK. Too many people saying too many things. 

I agree that if you don't know what you're doing and haven't studied the herb in question and especially if you're not checking, in this case the fecals to make sure it's working, then you're in big trouble. I wouldn't blindly take any herb without knowing what it is and what it does and I don't think anyone should go into anything without researching it first, but that's JMO. 

And I agree that people shouldn't be misled about what it will do, but if they're bound and determined and want to try it, then they should be free to do so. I know a lot of people swear by that herbal wormer. More power to them if it does. I know an awful lot of the chemical wormers are losing their effectiveness from misuse and I suppose the same will happen with herbs eventually. They all have to be used with a bit of common sense and with responsibility.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> I use herbs quite a lot but very specifically. If I use a herb it must it have a solid base in fact for it to be in my medicine cabinet, otherwise it's a waste of time and money. I don't claim to be natural, organic or anything like it. I'm not a chemist, a herbalist, a doctor or a lawyer or anything like that. I'm just cautious.
> 
> Combined approaches are what holistic is about and an animals health matters more to me than being organic.


Well i can agree with all that  I think though that wormwood can be used, but needs to be used carefully. As i said before theres no side effects of the herbs, you get what it gives. what i mean is that unlike meds or chemicals, the herbs will usually have another compound in them that neutralizes a side effect that might be found in meds or a chemical when they extract the active ingredient their trying to duplicate. 

Thats one reason ilike herbs better.

Ohh one great example would be the meds i take. 
lopressor is a beta blocker. It lowers heart rate. But its side effect is fatigue. Hawthorn lowers bp and heart rate and has no fatigue as a side effect. That is what i mean by herbs don't contain the side effects that chemicals do.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

As far as some of those de-wormers not being labeled for goats... Valbezen label

Warnings: Cattle must not be slaughtered within 27 days following last treatment. Sheep must not be slaughtered within 7 days following last treatment. Because a withdrawal time in milk has not been established, do not use in female dairy cattle of breeding age.

I don't care if this is cattle or goats , it can't be safe.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

"It can't be safe."

Well, of course not. It kills worms. You don't want the residue in your food or milk.

HOWEVER, if you have a high worm load, you lose the animal. So.....

You (literally) pick your poison.


* * * * 

Drugs don't have side effects? ROTFLMAO.

My grandson spent 16 months on chemo from age 2 1/2 to 4. Try to tell anyone in our family that drugs don't have side effects.:grit:

BUT, the situation is analogous. We were killing the cancer cells (worms) and tolerating the side effects in order to save the child.

Again, pick your poison. Doesn't matter if it's herbal or man made. The herbal wormers are poison for the worms. Just not as strong a poison as a man made chemical.

Herbs are plant manifestations of groups of chemicals. We pick and choose which collections of plant chemicals to eat or give our animals. 

Just do what works for you and your goats and your family.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> And cant you say the same about chemical meds?


Chemical meds, even used as prescribed, kill and injure people every day. A WHOLE lot more than herbs. With the vast majority of herbs, you have to be WAY off to cause harm, and usually that's just vomiting or something like that.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I wonder if Molly is reading this thread...Does anyone know if she ever visits this forum?


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## HollyBearFarm (May 25, 2008)

Rose said:


> "It can't be safe."
> 
> Well, of course not. It kills worms. You don't want the residue in your food or milk.
> 
> ...


There you go.

Also Minelson, I was wondering that same thing. And Molly, if you are reading this, I still think you are wonderful.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

southerngurl said:


> Chemical meds, even used as prescribed, kill and injure people every day. A WHOLE lot more than herbs. With the vast majority of herbs, you have to be WAY off to cause harm, and usually that's just vomiting or something like that.



no ashley, herbs can kill in the wrong hands. we had the example from foxglove (digitalis)
or think castor beans 
it really doesn't matter if we are wise and use plants or man made chemicals in the correct way.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Jan 10, 2004)

"Although, as a midwife you also know that midwives almost never advice using Black Cohosh to start labor as it can cause a lot of bleeding. My midwife never advices the use of Black Cohosh."

Well, actually it is the presence of pennyroyal in most of the compounds that have black cohosh as their primary ingredient that causes bleeding. And as a midwife I'd be far more concerned if a client used blue rather than black cohosh due to the potential for fetal heart rate irregularities. But that is quite a rabbit trail.  

Sure what I said proved the point...it was just that the comment "Herbs do not have harmful side effects to them. It is the individual who doesn't know their herbs and combinations of them that are harmful." struck me as unbelievably banal. NOTHING is harmful in a vacuum! Left in their containers herbs are harmless and so are chemicals! Heck, anthrax left in a properly sealed container is harmless!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

susanne said:


> no ashley, herbs can kill in the wrong hands. we had the example from foxglove (digitalis)
> or think castor beans
> it really doesn't matter if we are wise and use plants or man made chemicals in the correct way.


I didn't say anything that contradicted what you just said. 
I said:
Chemical meds, even used as prescribed, kill and injure people every day. A WHOLE lot more than herbs. With the vast majority of herbs, you have to be WAY off to cause harm, and usually that's just vomiting or something like that.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

susanne said:


> no ashley, herbs can kill in the wrong hands. we had the example from foxglove (digitalis)
> or think castor beans
> it really doesn't matter if we are wise and use plants or man made chemicals in the correct way.


I do think that is pretty much what i said except that with man made we get true unintended side effects and have no real choice in it since the medications do not have an active ingredient that netrualizes the side effect like herbs will.

Useage of herbs or medicines is all in the knowlege one aquires to use them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

"an active ingredient that neutralizes the side effect like herbs will."

Please provide an example.


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

Okay I want to say. none of herbs and chemical are safe ANYWAYS. But be sure just be cautious and it will be fine. It is on depends on the area where it works or not. Like with me I like to use both becuz it works so well Since we had so much rain this year and I use chemical becuz we have bad case of snails. The herbal dont always WORK 100 percent for us anyways. So I use chemical twice so far and I am still using herbal wormer. It works great so far. And also I learned this way if you dont give them chemical first and use herbal wormer first and it wont work really well so have to give chemical first then use herbal and it works best and better that way. BUT that is what it works for me. maybe not for you guys. But let say both of them is not always safe but be smart how to use them. It is done.


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

OK, I'm going to jump into this quagmire...
Everytime that the use of herbal wormers come up, it degenerates quickly into an "I'm right, the rest of you are wrong and not too smart to boot" situation.

When dealing with wormloads and using ANY type of wormer, fecals are a must. Management and proper diet are a MUST. Clean, fresh water, clean living conditions, not over crowding the goats, so forth and so on. In other words, you MUST provide decent basic care for anything to be effective in the long term health of your goat.

I live in WI, so our worm loads would be different that other areas of the country, but I, personally, have had outstanding success with Molly's wormer. My goats ARE healthier than two years ago when I started with it and I wouldn't have thought they were unhealthy then. Their coats are shinier now though, they shed their winter coats more easily, their skin is softer (no flaking), their eyes brighter, they seldom get sick, their poop is solid, they utilize their feed better. The herbals are part of the overall management of my herd (see above). Nothing else in how I manage my herd changed in that time frame other than no longer using chemicals. Though my herd has doubled in the last two years...

My once skeptical vet is now a believer. The proof for him was in the fecal results that he saw time and again. We did the first fecal before I began (without using a chemical wormer first), the second fecal at 4 weeks, the 3rd at 8 weeks, another at 16 weeks and so forth... More proof for him (my vet) was the fact we no longer had cocci issues with the bottle fed babies (2 years now!) after facing a severe bought the year before that where none of the chemical meds were working here in the midwest.

Vicki's attitude that anyone who is using Herbals is an idiot who doesn't do the research (ie fecals) is very annoying. I know more people that use herbals and do fecals to monitor their effectiveness in their herds than I do breeders who dump the equivelent of kerosene down their goats throats every three months and assume it's working because someone else on a message board said it would. Something that is absolutely NOT labeled for internal use mind you! 

Vicki as well as others on this board DO push the importance of fecals, unfortunately for way too many goat people, it's easier to use the chemicals because so many say they work. They do it without actually knowing what worms they may be dealing with and if the wormer they are using is actually effective on the worms they have. They take it as the gospel and overuse the chemicals until they don't work. I have a friend down in KY who'se vet as well as other local breeders tells her to worm every 3 months because worms are such a problem there. True, but... which worms? She doesn't fecal so she has no idea. But she religiously worms her goats. She spends tons of money treating her goats for this health issue and that (probably brought on by worms) but doesn't do the cheapest and what may be the most effective thing she could to get her health issues under control. Run fecals. From what I've seen and the people I've talked to, she is the norm.
Someone on this thread mentioned that Cydectin is the last line of defense. There is nothing else coming down the pike. So what are these people going to use then???

Feed your goats the highest qaulity feed you can afford, keep their housing clean and pay attention to your animals! If you know your goats and spend time with them, you will see very quickly if someone is "off".

Continue using the herbals if they are working for you and ignore they nay-sayers.


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## lyceum (Oct 20, 2006)

I didn't really want to get involved in all the bashing that has been going on, but I think that it is time. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion on what is best for their own goats. What works for one person may not necessarily work for someone else. There are many different ways to raise goats, not just one. What works in Texas, does not necesarily work in Oregon, Michigan, Maine or Florida. Newbies need to find someone in their area that has been raising goats for awhile and ask for their opinions on what works/doesn't work for their area. Then, if they can find a vet with any goat knowledge at all, ask for their opinion, then, based on what these people have told you, come up with a management plan that works for you, not someone in another part of the country. 

Cydectin, Ivomec, etc are not designed for goats, they are labeled for cattle, etc. Cydectin is a pour on. I would not want someone forcing me to drink something that is not designed to go in my mouth. If herbal wormers worked for every worm every time, I would use just herbals. But since they don't get everything, I use some chemicals. I am NOT saying that I am anti-Chemical. I use both chemical and herbal wormers. 

Everyone needs to be considerate of other people's opinions/methods of raising their goats. This forum is designed to help people, not to put people down just because they don't think like you do. We don't want new people being scared off this forum because of a difference of opinion.

Carisa


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Cydectin comes in an oral sheep drench as well as a cattle pour-on. If I use it, I will spend the extra money to use the oral sheep drench. It is not worth saving a few bucks to subject my goats to ingesting an external application.

Ivomec is a brand name. They make several de-wormers.


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## doulanobles (Aug 15, 2006)

Can we assume that herbal wormers used in the north(I'm in the spokane area at 2300ft elevation) are more likely to be effective than if used in the south??

I use Molly's but have not gotten a fecal in yet (I know I need to and will do it before the month is out). I only have 4 goats an 4 acres where goats have never been. Also, the chickens pick throught the goat berries often and I can only hope that is helpful to keep down worm loads. Vet recomends ivermectin when needed.

I know I can't just go on my short history of keeping goats and looking at them to tell completely if everything is ok. We all just do the best we can with the information we have available at the time. When we know better, we do better. 'Better' being subjective, of course!


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

doulanobles said:


> Can we assume that herbal wormers used in the north(I'm in the spokane area at 2300ft elevation) are more likely to be effective than if used in the south??


Until the product is tested you can assume anything you want to. That's the whole point of the discussion here. Until the product is tested it's all guess this and guess that...

Producers shouldn't have to use a fecal egg counts to "prove" that this is a product that works or not. It shouldn't be up to us. 


They have never been studied or proven to work better in the north or in the south. That's a guess based on what someone has said on a forum or internet group. I would not base my methods of goat management on that alone.

Chemical wormers have been shown to be effective at killing parasites when used at certain rates in an animal. Studies on ruminants have verified that they have killed a "x" percentage of parasites. As long as there are no problems of resistance we can rest assured that the product we have given the animal will do what it is supposed to. 

No basis of knowledge exists for molly's herbal wormer and other blends. There is nothing besides folklore to back up the idea that these are in fact de-wormers, or preventatives. They may just be tasty treats for the goats-for all we really know.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> Until the product is tested you can assume anything you want to. That's the whole point of the discussion here. Until the product is tested it's all guess this and guess that...
> 
> Producers shouldn't have to use a fecal egg counts to "prove" that this is a product that works or not. It shouldn't be up to us.
> 
> ...



But then you can't ASSUME that chemical wormers will work either. In some areas chemical wormers have completely lost their effectiveness either from misuse or over use and the worms build up resistance. Sooo, whether chemical or herbal it's always wise to do fecals and see where you stand so that you know for sure.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

many of the "chemical" products we are using for our animals are off-label because they are not tested. what does that proof?
doulanobles this is why i always preach to do a fecal check, no matter what product you are using or at what altitude you are.
and if you have done that, and it works for your herd, then choose whatever works for you. 
i would be the last one to fight with you if you choosed molly'e herbal if that is what works


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I said, if there were no problems with resistence...You can take that same bottle of chemcial de-wormer into an area that has not ever used it and it would be effective there. The problem is the worms, not the chemicals. 

Most of the drugs we use for our goats in are off label use, however much has been tested on cattle and sheep and horses...We are talking of wormers here, not every chemcial in the books or on the shelves...

I find the image of trying to force people to things over the internet to be rather funny. _Watch out! or I may send my unfriendly garlic bulb over to beat up your garlic bulb!_* 

* That's a joke. I'm joking. :happy:


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> I said, if there were no problems with resistence...You can take that same bottle of chemcial de-wormer into an area that has not ever used it and it would be effective there. The problem is the worms, not the chemicals.
> 
> Most of the drugs we use for our goats in are off label use, however much has been tested on cattle and sheep and horses...We are talking of wormers here, not every chemcial in the books or on the shelves...
> 
> ...



The only problem is a lot of times you don't know there's resistance until you do a fecal and the wormer isn't working. A lot has to do with the farms they came from too. Also, just because the bottle says it will kill "x" amount of worms doesn't mean it will. No matter what you use, it also depends on the health of your herd and how you manage them. Sooo many variants to take into consideration that I don't think anyone should assume anything about anything.


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## oceanmist (Mar 21, 2006)

throwing out a little kink into all this... don't always assume that your vet knows a thing about goats either! and don't assume they are giving you the accurate results of a fecal and not just pacifying you so that you won't bother them with goats anymore!

been here and done this... thank God for Dr. Flemming's office who will give me honest answers and HELP me take care of my goats instead of making up some stupid answer!

the only way to determine if any wormer, chemical or herbal is working is to do a fecal.... period! that's how you see the worms.

Misty


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> Until the product is tested you can assume anything you want to. That's the whole point of the discussion here. Until the product is tested it's all guess this and guess that...
> *If I'm having fecals run and the results are good, aren't I in effect "testing" the herbal wormers???*
> 
> Producers shouldn't have to use a fecal egg counts to "prove" that this is a product that works or not. It shouldn't be up to us.
> ...


*You do know that this "folklore" concerning the use of various herbs for various ailments has been around and used for a whole heck of alot longer than your chemical meds, don't you?*


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

"If I'm having fecals run and the results are good, aren't I in effect "testing" the herbal wormers???"

This is you testing to make sure your product is helping your animal. 

This isn't anyone who is more qualified than you testing the product to make sure it can do what it is claimed to do. Or that it has the ingredients in it that it is claimed to have. Or that it is the strength that it is said to be.



"'Producers shouldn't have to use a fecal egg counts to "prove" that this is a product that works or not. It shouldn't be up to us.'"
So are saying that you don't run fecals because it's not your responsibility? If not up to us to monitor, than who? "

Sorry if I didn't make this clear. The pharmaceutical industry tests any product they make for efficacy and safety and residues. So I say it's not up to us-the consumer or user-to test it for efficacy. If we had to do this for every product we ever used we would waste a great deal of our life in doing tests to make sure of what we are using. Do you see the distinction? [/B]

"In some cases, these forums are all goat people may have available to them. Goats have to be dosed at greater rates than a cow to be effective (that's alot of chemicals going into yor animals!). It has been proven the certain chemicals wormers don't work in different areas of the country, yet you are still pushing them. It would still be a "guess" as to whether it will work where you live or not."

People could join or make clubs, find excellent breeders, find vets who like goats ect, if they want to. 

Goats are dosed higher than cows because a goats metabolism is higher than a cow. That's pretty simple to me. 

Just because a chemical wormer doesn't work in Texas doesn't mean it won't work somewhere else. These rumors of chemicals not working shouldn't cause anyone to say "Well, they just don't work anywhere." We still use ivermectin and safeguard up here and I've had no problems yet. 

It's not a guess if you see a 95% reduction in the fecal eggs you see in your test. Can you get a 95% reduction in your fecals after giving some herbs? 

Once again: It's not the chemical that doesn't work. It's the worms who have mutated enough so that they can survive the chemical. It's the worms- not the chemicals. The chemicals will work in a different area, if there are no resistant worms present. 
Can you tell me how the parasites are going to avoid doing that with Molly's Herbal Wormer?


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Gosh, y'all.... 4 pages of posts.... no wonder some of you newbies have such high post counts! 

I actually have an opinion here (well, more than one, but only one worth the energy required to type it out)

DEATH TO THE WORMS!!!!!! That is my ONLY concern. I don't care WHAT makes it happen; I just want them DEAD. And I think that is at the heart of this discussion, as well.... that we all want them gone, but we wish that they would just "poof!", go away! But that's not reality. Reality says that if you want to exterminate something, you have to apply a killing solution. Killing solutions powerful enough to kill the parasite, but not too powerful or you'll kill the host.

I HATE putting "death juice" down my goaties throats! I Do! But I hate the worms MORE!!!!:viking:

And that's all I have to say.

P.S. Hey, Vicki, how's it goin? Nope, I don't miss Texas at all!:cowboy:


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> Once again: It's not the chemical that doesn't work. It's the worms who have mutated enough so that they can survive the chemical. It's the worms- not the chemicals. The chemicals will work in a different area, if there are no resistant worms present.


File this away. This is important.

We are still able to use Ivomec Eprinex for a few reasons - one being that the people we buy goats from never wormed willy nilly. Another being that we don't, either.

When Stan goes all nuts about people who use chemical wormers, I am not sure he considers that many experienced owners and breeders ONLY worm based on EPG and FAMACHA checks (combined, not separate)and NEVER do herd-wide wormings. 

I have friends down here - in the hot humid south - who only ever have to worm two times a year. This is because they have only a few goats on a lot of land. Herbal wormers would be a waste of money for these people - their worm burdens are controlled already. ...this all goes back to the beginning of this scary thread.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

BlueHeronFarm said:


> File this away. This is important.
> 
> We are still able to use Ivomec Eprinex for a few reasons - one being that the people we buy goats from never wormed willy nilly. Another being that we don't, either.
> 
> ...



I'm not going "postal" over folks using commercial wormers. I use them myself. I go "postal" over the fact that it is the standard of care suggested for almost all ailments a goat or goat owner may have or believe they have. 

For instance....
Wet stool.....
It could mean worms.
or
1) Change in food
2) a change in environment
3) poor water quality
4) a failed conception
5) a actual physical condition (like a bad hit or poke to the abdomen.)
6) a hardware issue.


Of these issues only in the top 2 would worming not cause increased stress on the animal. Even in these cases it could but would be unlikely to add to the problem.

Yet the main "cure" postulated is to worm. This may and I do mean may cause more harm than good.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

stan, copper deficiency is another reason for wet stool or diarrhea. this even comes with pale eyelids


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

stanb999 said:


> I'm not going "postal" over folks using commercial wormers. I use them myself. I go "postal" over the fact that it is the standard of care suggested for almost all ailments a goat or goat owner may have or believe they have.
> 
> For instance....
> Wet stool.....
> ...


You hit one of my pet peeves here. I hate when people post about clumpy poo and the reaction is worms!

HC does not cause loose stool. There are typically NO symptoms other than maybe anemia...at which point you've got to worm quickly.

This is why fecal epg counts are SO important. Often times the first sign of a parasite (HC) overload is a dead goat.


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

Hear hear! Blue Heron.

Andrea


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Yes, fecals are great, because guessing's no fun.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

isn't that what i always say?  
no antemintics (herbal or man made), money or time can replace a fecal check. this is the A and O in parasite prevention. i only can recommend to every body with live stock, to have this on priority list to learn. it is easy, and it is cheap.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

But new people do not have a vet they can take a fecal to because they don't do goats.....

They have purchased from breeders who then don't help them and so they end up here....

But new people do not know how to fecal.

Most of the people on this forum do not fecal, hence nobody answering the gals questions yesterday on doing a fecal.

Susanne answered a PIPERIZINE question with ask your vet. PIPERIZINE!!!!

They want you to save their goat. The first sign of worms in a poorly ran farm is going to be diarrhea (hence the mud butt analogy here), then bottle jaw anemia with HC. Winters and springs it's the "I have a skinny milker I can't get any weight on or kids are born skinny and small and die and my doe has no milk".

In all cases Stan wrote it could be cause from bad poor basic management, OK not the last few  And I think the stress factor is really overlooked. I don't have alot of illness or accidents here, but does who are on meds are profilactially put on oral sulfas for cocci and are fecaled every couple of days for worms.

Parasites and nutrition, it's what you have to teach first.

If you bombard them with too many things they will do none.

Note not a heck of alot of folks who purchase from me are on here asking these questions, so make sure you give good basic information to your customers so they don't become one of these that we guess what is wrong folks. All we can do on here is guess and those guesses save goats. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

here we go again vicki. i did not just answer " ask the vet"
http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=265009

i have not used this wormer and therefore no experience with it

at least i don't play vet on the internet like you do.

why do you have to get personal with all your posts? you would look so much smarter if you wouldn't do that.


there is absolutely no reason what so ever, not to tell new goat owners what a fecal is all about, how to learn and where to find the right info. 
as a responsible old time goat owner, it should be in your interest, to prevent the only effective wormer in the humid south to become useless.

oh, and too much "but" in your posts. does it mean it is not really credible what you are saying? or do i missunderstand the humor in it?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

there is absolutely no reason what so ever, not to tell new goat owners what a fecal is all about, how to learn and where to find the right info.
.....................

From getting you first goats...when did you first fecal? So I should have told you to just fecal those goats you bought, no cocci info, no worming information...just ask your vet and learn to fecal. 

Nope you are humorless. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> there is absolutely no reason what so ever, not to tell new goat owners what a fecal is all about, how to learn and where to find the right info.
> .....................
> 
> From getting you first goats...when did you first fecal? So I should have told you to just fecal those goats you bought, no cocci info, no worming information...just ask your vet and learn to fecal.
> ...


never too late to start doing the right thing vicki. 

only because somebody just started out with goats, doesn't mean they are stupid. they only need the right direction. for those that need more help, they will come and ask.
as soon as they get bashed and hit because they might have a different idea, that is when they stay away or watching duels and are too intimidated to ask.
this is where some old timers need to get smarter and not act like queens or dictators. 
when it comes to you, yes i'm very humorless.
i still value some of your views. this is maybe only a matter of time until the last rest of respect is gone.

why didn't you answer the piperazine question from sixshooterfarm? 
maybe because you didn't know either?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

only because somebody just started out with goats, doesn't mean they are stupid. they only need the right direction.
...................

You just won me $10!!!! Gabe.

You will never find a post where I have called a new person stupid.

My post is true, no matter how you slice it, they want real information and the right direction is to give them the correct wormers to use and the correct dosages, and then give them the information on learning to fecal, teach them and still most won't.

And the whole Vicki is so mean and thinks she knows it all is getting really really old.

Sorry I am not going to give you the info on Piperizine also so you can then pretend you didn't learn it from me  LOL!!! rolly eyes sarcastic, shaking of the finger emoticons right back at you with a different finger though...humor humor humor.


..............................

OK all that aside as a new person yourself Susanne, you could answer this question and really put all this to rest.

When you purchased your first goats, even though you knew all, I was going to put most but all my peers fecal, so although you knew all of the old timers you read on the forum, I was on, fecaled. How long before you stopped just using the information on worming and cocci prevention I gave you, and simply fecaled? Day, weeks, months, a year? Vicki


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> But new people do not have a vet they can take a fecal to because they don't do goats.....
> 
> They have purchased from breeders who then don't help them and so they end up here....


Many of us just like these forums and like to learn and return the favor. The breeders where I purchased my goats are EXTREMELY helpful, even amidst their own very busy schedules. They go out of their way to help me and others and I so appreciate them. But sometimes I want more information, another opinion, or whatever, so I come here. It's not because I don't believe them or don't trust them or because they aren't helping me, it's just to sort of touch bases with others who may be learning or teaching the same things.



Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Note not a heck of alot of folks who purchase from me are on here asking these questions, so make sure you give good basic information to your customers so they don't become one of these that we guess what is wrong folks.


An absence of your buyers here doesn't say anything about the information you provide or don't provide, but I agree, you do have to help out the newbies as much as you can, as their successes can invariably reflect upon you as a breeder (not just as a mentor).



Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> If you bombard them with too many things they will do none.


It depends on the personality of the newbie, but yes, this can and does happen and is something we all have to consider.



susanne said:


> never too late to start doing the right thing vicki.
> 
> only because somebody just started out with goats, doesn't mean they are stupid. they only need the right direction. for those that need more help, they will come and ask.
> as soon as they get bashed and hit because they might have a different idea, that is when they stay away or watching duels and are too intimidated to ask.
> this is where some old timers need to get smarter and not act like queens or dictators.


Yep. I have a pretty thick skin courtesy of my many years posting on forums like these (many are unmoderated forums where things can get pretty heated, just go look at rec.equestrian for an eye-opener! LOL). Still, it's unpleasant when the information is clouded with bad attitude, especially when the attitude isn't warranted. For example, one could at least understand getting exasperated with someone that refuses to learn/listen and posts the same questions over and over and continues to have problems or being upset with someone for abusing or neglecting their animals. However, it's quite another situation to act supreme because someone decides to ask a question or present a differing point of view for discussion.

It's always nice to know that you're welcomed as a newbie too. I joined DairyGoatInfo not knowing it was "Vicki's" forum. I posted a couple of times, not to Vicki, not about Vicki, not mean, not looking for trouble, just exploring a new site upon which to interact with other goat fanciers. Within HOURS, Vicki had me banned from the forum without reason. Obviously she felt my mere presence threatened her there. After I had a chance to speak about the situation with another moderator and Vicki, I have not bothered to go back there. Now that I know it is "Vicki's" forum, I'm not interested in it in the least. My loss? Maybe. But being banned just for showing up says all I need to know about the place.



Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> You will never find a post where I have called a new person stupid.


I'm not going to bother to go back through to see if you've ever actually used that word but you sure do have a way of minimizing a newbie's experiences. You just recently told me I had "had goats for five minutes" amidst a good discussion about looking beyond the same-old, same-old, thereby trivializing my experiences with goats and my comments. Do you know that I have probably read and absorbed more information about goats in the year before I bought a goat and the last 10 months of actually owning goats than most of the people I've met ever actually have discussed in 20 years of goat ownership? Does that make anyone better or smarter than the other? Nope. But it says a lot about my ambition to learn and perhaps their luck not having to learn about bad encounters.

Getting back to the OP, as far as de-wormers go, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use the fecal system if you can in any way learn it or hire it done and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use the correct dosages in the correct intervals. If you don't use the right dosages & intervals, you may be immunizing the surviving parasites (not just worms) to the chemicals, thereby building their resistance.

I wonder what about the Molly's herbal mixes makes the owners report the coats look so good? Seems a lot of folks here use the mix just for this use so which herb (or combination of herbs) therein could be fed regularly, strictly to improve outward appearance without building resistance or harming the goat? 

I'm not Susanne, but I will tell you that I had a fecal done on my goats WITHIN THE FIRST WEEK OR SO AFTER THEY ARRIVED. I even posted about it here.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Sorry I am not going to give you the info on Piperizine also so you can then pretend you didn't learn it from me  LOL!!! rolly eyes sarcastic, shaking of the finger emoticons right back at you with a different finger though...humor humor humor.


i hope at least you did send a pm to her and let her know that if administered with wrong drugs, it can be deadly.
maybe you should give all your advice only in pm's LOL
oh wait a moment. you would loose your status here because nobody would read what you have to say and see how intelligent you are . 

maybe i read it wrong again? :croc:


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

vicki, let us end the cat fights on public boards. it doesn't help others. i respect your opinion, please do respect mine.
stay with the subject and don't pull out old trash every time you see an opportunity. 
your advise might be well meant and from some viewers analyzed as passionate, but comes across wrong too many times.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

As for the Molly's and the coat, the same thing happened to my dog when feeding him almost raw. I think it is the result of overall good health. I find the same thing with my finger nails and hair when I take vitamins.

The herbal de-wormers have decreased my goats worm load. Fact, that is all I need to know. I have had the fecals done but even without them I would be happy. As long as the animal is looking great, bright eyed, eyelids dark pink, she is milking great and has excellent body condition I do not care if she has a few extra worms. Molly's has done all that for my goats.


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

steff bugielski said:


> The herbal de-wormers have decreased my goats worm load. Fact, that is all I need to know. I have had the fecals done but even without them I would be happy. As long as the animal is looking great, bright eyed, eyelids dark pink, she is milking great and has excellent body condition I do not care if she has a few extra worms. Molly's has done all that for my goats.


It's nice to hear that because I was considering giving the product a try, but only the part without the wormwood. 

Does anybody maintain a free choice herbal pasture? We have a wormwood patch that grows naturally. I have been meaning to get out there and plant some more of the high tannin plants out there.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I plan to plant lezpedeza in the goat yard, because I started feeding it to my goats and HC counts went down. It is also supposed to be a very good feed for milkers, lots of protein and calcium like alfalfa (but not quite a high as alfalfa).

A couple of other things a person should have in their fields is mustard and garlic, that way you don't have to season your goats before you eat them :nana: .

No really, they are good for worms and the garlic is just great for so many things, bacteria, virus, and fungal. It's a good general health increaser. And I personally have not had it make my goats milk to taste funny to feed them garlic greens, maybe they just didn't get enough? I fed it to them by the handfuls.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

minnikin1 said:


> It's nice to hear that because I was considering giving the product a try, but only the part without the wormwood.


I know two people who have lost goats due to wild wormwood in the pasture that the goats wee eating. I myself would not allow them to browse on it free choice. Plant it in a tub, so you can control how much they eat. 

Lots of other herbs can be planted in the pasture that help with over all health and condition. Peacful Valley farm supply has mixes that you can use.


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

[email protected] LaudoDeumFa said:


> I know two people who have lost goats due to wild wormwood in the pasture that the goats wee eating. I myself would not allow them to browse on it free choice. Plant it in a tub, so you can control how much they eat.
> 
> Lots of other herbs can be planted in the pasture that help with over all health and condition. Peacful Valley farm supply has mixes that you can use.


How did they know it was because of the wormwood?
Here the only problem they list with it is perhaps decreased milk or funny tasting milk:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/dairy/facts/87-016.htm


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

southerngurl said:


> A couple of other things a person should have in their fields is mustard and garlic, that way you don't have to season your goats before you eat them :nana: .
> 
> No really, they are good for worms and the garlic is just great for so many things, bacteria, virus, and fungal. It's a good general health increaser.


Just a caution, Goat Medicine says that soils in the northern US and the Himalayas are known to be iodine deficient, which might explain why feeding free choice kelp meal has not presented a problem for some locals. The same
paragraph mentions that some Dutch goats have inheritied abnormalities
of thyroid function that may interfere with iodine uptake (pg. 34).
Consuming "goitrogens (such as members of the Cruciferae family, most
commonly brassicas or of the mustard or cabbage family) may interfere
with iodine uptake by the thyroid gland." Goiter is mentioned as the
main sign of iodine deficiency. Signs of deficiency often included hair
loss, a rough or course coat, skin abnormalities (including lesions),
subcutaneous edema, hyperkeratosis, and plugging of hair folicles,
sluggish movements, poor growth, and in severe cases, stillbirth.
Sometimes no outward signs were evident or the signs were limited to the
formation of goiters. There is also mention of an outbreak of
hypothyroidism in South African Angoras, "believed to be caused by
thiocyanate from heavily fertilized alfalfa pastures," where "kids were
viable but abnormal from time of birth. They were short, blocky, obese,
and inactive. The skull was broadened laterally and prognathia inferior
was present in all cases. Goiters were easily palpated bilaterally"
(ppg. 54-55).

This also might help - a list of Cruciferous plants:

http://www.habitas.org.uk/flora/splist.asp?Family=Cruciferae / Brassicaceae


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Thanks for the infor Hoofinitnorth, I didn't even realize mustard was a cruciferous, lol.

As a side note on the "dangerous" herbs. Often the tests they use to say such and such herb is dangerous are questionable. They typically remove a certain chemical in the herb (IMO making it a drug) and inject this into lab mice, mice that live unnatural lives to start with, and often in huge doses. So do these tests mean anything in the real world?

Herbs (and food) are a compound and taking something out of the equation will usually cause some kind of problem. Just like eggs, they told everyone for years they would raise your cholesterol because of the cholesterol content in the yolk, then they finally say, not they don't because of the lecithin (I believe) in the white. Lesson being, just eat foods as they were made and you probably won't have any problems. 

Anything in excess is going to be a problem though, this should be common sense.


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