# Help choosing a breed



## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Hello all. We just lost our oldest dog to old age and a "slot" has opened up for a new dog. We breed sheep and are hoping to expand our herd over the coming years. Right now I can drive them to grazing myself as there's not too many. But I can see that soon I will need help keeping them altogether. I have been reading up on herding and finding that it is a seemingly complicated thing with many very different jobs all falling under the banner of "herding". Heading, driving, musting....and etc. And different breeds all bred for different types of herding though some are said to do multiple herding functions.

I would also like to have a dog to act as protection on the farm. Soemthing to chase off coyote's, tree *****, and etc. Today I saw the biggest coyote I have ever seen in this area. It was a big white one, wouldnt be surprised if it was a wolf. Though they say that wolves are unlikely in this area.

I know this is a big order for one dog to fill. But any ideas on what type of breed you would recommend as an over-all sheep herding/protection animal? I live in the cold north country so having a good coat is essential. No short coat dogs.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Herding breeds are dogs with highly specialized prey drive, which results in herding activity. Livestock guardian dogs are highly specialized dogs with almost no prey drive, but a good protection drive. A dog that will herd and be reliable as a guardian dog does not exist. Sure there are a few examples of dogs such as German shepherd dogs that herd and protect, but it's rare. A breed known for both qualities does it exist.


----------



## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Maybe a Bouvier ?(but you wouldnt be leaving it with the sheep 24/7 maybe just out in the pasture at night), if you have really far pastures/ alot of range to cover and that amount of predation I think, if you are expanding the operation you should get a pair of LGDs to leave out with the sheep and a working herding dog you keep at the house with you and you take out to the sheep for work....(Border collie maybe?)....


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Why do you need a herding dog? If your sheep are trained to the grain bucket, they will follow you anywhere. This doesn't mean you have to feed them grain everyday, just introduce them to oats and give them a little every few days. Once a few sheep start moving, the others will follow. They are herd animals and _want_ to stick together.

I had two mini jennets with my sheep and coyotes never bothered them. Except once when a sheep was separated from them. It's not that the donkeys could kill a coyote, but a coyote or wolf is interested in lunch, not fun and games. Either get a guard donkey or two (they have to be bonded to sheep as weanlings) or an LGD. The LGD would also have to be bonded to sheep. Other dogs, such as Dobermann, will protect their territory, not necessarily protect the sheep.


----------



## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Maura said:


> Why do you need a herding dog? If your sheep are trained to the grain bucket, they will follow you anywhere. This doesn't mean you have to feed them grain everyday, just introduce them to oats and give them a little every few days. Once a few sheep start moving, the others will follow. They are herd animals and _want_ to stick together.
> 
> I had two mini jennets with my sheep and coyotes never bothered them. Except once when a sheep was separated from them. It's not that the donkeys could kill a coyote, but a coyote or wolf is interested in lunch, not fun and games. Either get a guard donkey or two (they have to be bonded to sheep as weanlings) or an LGD. The LGD would also have to be bonded to sheep. Other dogs, such as Dobermann, will protect their territory, not necessarily protect the sheep.


I don't use the grain bucket for daily herding because it gets expensive feeding all that grain and I am raising them as grass fed. Trying to cut out as much grain feeding as possible. I have also found that my sheep catch on pretty quick and when they follow the bucket and find there is no grain, the next time they aren't so quick to follow. And the time after that they won't follow at all. Before I know it I am blowing through a bag a week and killing my profit margin. I also can't advertise as 100% grass fed.

Also I have found that rams will follow the bucket and try to knock me over from behind sometimes. I don't like walking out in front and constantly watching my back.

I have got them so they go out in front, and I can direct them usually by holding out my arm one way or the other. Still the flock is growing and when a group breaks off I have to run out and drive them back...it's a job better suited to a canine.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Just give them a handful. They soon learn the shshsh sound as grain. Once you have them responding to the sound you back off. Do it every second day, then every 3rd day. I could not give any grain for months and they would still respond to the sound.

Instead of getting knocked over, I would walk along the fenceline to the gate I want them to go through, put a little oats on the ground, then open the gate. They head right to line of oats on the ground and ignore me while I close the gate. If they are running down the road kamikaze style, I stand in the road and shake the bucket until they start moving toward me. Then, I walk in the direction I want them to go. If they catch up and crowd me, I just drop a little on the ground, step away, drop a little more, until they are all looking for the oats. Walk through gate, repeat, close gate.


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I certainly understand what you're saying, i.e. watching your back and holding the food pan out in front as you walk. Maura, as usual, has some great advice as to how to move sheep. (Before I trained my goats to come when I called, that is what I had to do and it can be quite scary if your balance and agility is not what it use to be.)

Since you asked about dogs, if the situation were mine, I would get two dogs (young ones and let them grow together). One would be a "herding" dog (maybe border collie type, though I know nothing about herding dogs) and the other would be an LGD. They would learn to work together to both herd and guard your sheep. (The herding dog would move them where you want while the LGD would protect them where they are.) If you go this route, know you will need to create a "social" bond between them all; and that would take some time. I think you would find it well worth it.


----------



## Sam Burton (Sep 17, 2013)

I agree with the 1 guardian and 1 herding animal. We use donkeys for guardians. They do a good job. Once in a while they alert that the problem is unusually difficult. On those rare occasions, we let our Mastiffs into the pasture and watch the potential threat head for the hills. We have two collies and a corgi as well. They are pretty useless as herding dogs. One of the collies will make a half hearted effort and get them started moving if we have stragglers. Since we only keep a small herd, the food bucket is incentive enough to keep them moving.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I think one good farm collie (not the same as a Rough Collie) would suit your needs jsut fine.

Why don't you look up herding clinics or trainers in your area, and try to learn a bit about herding and the different breed styles before you pick a breed? Nothing is as valuable as first hand experience, and it is a way to get in touch with local people who have the type of working dog you're looking for.


----------



## StockDogLovr (Apr 13, 2009)

A working bred Australian Shepherd may be just the right dog for you! Aussies are excellent sheep/cow dogs but are also protective as well as able to go off duty and be the family pet. I have a male who is very serious about taking out threats. It isn't that he's bonded to the sheep like an LGD - he just can't stand it when a predator comes around! With my female he tried to take out a coyote last year before our fence was built. I interfered because I was worried about their safety, but the coyote was clearly the loser in that situation, limping off on three legs covered in blood. 

On another occasion he squeezed through the pasture gate to go after a juvenile coyote that had gotten in; he killed it. He has killed three opossums as well. He'd probably kill anything that turned up that didn't belong. Yesterday, two stray dogs came by. One got under our driveway gate and got into our ducks, killing two and chewing on the rest a bit. He was a stupid, young pit mix and I didn't have the guts to let my husband shoot him, so we kicked him out the gate where his shepherd buddy was waiting for him. The idiot got back under our gate while our dogs were outside and my male attacked him and chewed him up pretty good. Surprised he didn't kill the dog, but it was a pretty big intact male.

I'm tempted to leave him out in the pasture at night but can't for the fact that he is spoiled and wants to be in with us! During the day, he and our old female Aussie love to lie outside and survey the property (the house is on a knoll overlooking the land); they have both alerted us to the presence of coyotes with barking and hysteria. 

Important: you must get a WORKING BRED Aussie, not just any Aussie since the fluff conformation/agility dogs won't do what you expect, no instinct left. Check with workingaussiesource.com for a reputable working Aussie breeder.


----------



## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

An aussie, or border collie from working lines would be good for moving sheep. As a beginner you will appreciate the natural gather, balance, and radial feel in a well bred border collie or aussie. Many other herding breeds have little or no gather making training for large field work more time consuming and difficult. Kelpies are good dogs too, but shorter coated. Some of the other breeds still bred for herding can do a good job in smaller confined areas. Herding breeds are not lgds, most are too small and could be taken out by coyotes. The herding lines still bred for work will have a higher prey drive making them unsuitable to be left with the stock 24/7. I second going to a few stockdog trials and watching others work. You can also meet some people who might help you in training your dog. Check out USBCHA.com, or google AHBA herding. 
I don't use grain to move my sheep either. It's no fun trying to hold a bucket with 100 sheep mobbing you. My dog keeps them off of me when feeding. I can use my dog to load trailers, sort new mamas off, hold sheep to catch, etc. A good dog is like having a few more people to help, maybe better. 
Many herding breeds nowadays aren't bred for work, but pets, color, agility, show, etc. Even though they are a herding breed, they may not have what it takes to be a good herding dog. Ask to see the parents working. Here are a couple videos of my border collies on sheep
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wsDOZ-hk58[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LUIWFDA2k[/ame]
For my sheep operation I have two Pyrenees/Anatolian crosses for lgds. They suit my needs and I have zero sheep losses with them protecting. I have tried mini donkeys and llamas. Neither of those were effective as deterrents once my flock was over 10 sheep.


----------



## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

CAjerseychick said:


> Maybe a Bouvier ?(but you wouldnt be leaving it with the sheep 24/7 maybe just out in the pasture at night), ..


Please be very careful about trying to use a herding breed for flock protection. Many Bouviers are used for personal protection work nowadays and have very strong prey drive and a big bite. They are not easy to start in herding for the novice. They tend to be quite aggressive on stock.


----------



## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

wendle said:


> Please be very careful about trying to use a herding breed for flock protection. Many Bouviers are used for personal protection work nowadays and have very strong prey drive and a big bite. They are not easy to start in herding for the novice. They tend to be quite aggressive on stock.



Hmmmm I had not thought of this in this way... perhaps cause we have a Giant Schnauzer as one of our farm dogs (and she is true to breed tendencies and has quite the protection instincts) we have mediated her aggressive tendencies to our stock, and her loud barking and constant vigilance are a boon to our Pyr - anatalion pup and Bernese mt dog-- no predator losses in 2 years and even our hens free range....
I take her to the city with me once a week for company on the days I work as well, she is one Sharp gal....


I completely empathisize around being mobbed by the herd, I am realizing how obnoxious a goat herd can be.....


----------



## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm not familiar with the giant schn as far as herding drive goes. I did watch a few videos of them on Youtube. I am not seeing the intensity on those as I have on Bouvs. I have worked with bouvs though and know how intense they can be. They can be a challenge to teach not to eat or chase the sheep. With such a strong bite they can do some severe damage quick, like taking out chunks of skin.


----------

