# New power service, or solar?



## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

Chances are very high that our new property (~5 acres) will not have power on it. I know that in this area the cost is around ~$7500 for a single power pole, plus some other costs I am sure. Knowing this I want to take a look at solar. Wind might be an option, but will need to be added later. With this kind of cost up-front to install a new power service, I would assume that solar would be able to pay for itself much faster than if the house was already on the grid. I am very new to solar technology, but have read a few web sites, and a bunch of posts. Currently our family of 5 already uses about half the power of the average US household. We have no microwave, no hair dryers, no A/C units, all lights are CFLs, and lights are off unless needed. When we move to the acreage we expect to cut this quite a bit further by eliminating a bunch of phantom loads, replacing a computer that runs 24/7 with a laptop, reducing fridge size, no more forced-air furnace, no more dishwasher, etc. As we will be looking for property and hopefully purchasing within the next 2-3 weeks I need to make some quick decisions. The major power suckers I forsee are:
#1 oven: my wife bakes all of our bread, cookies, etc. 
#2 fridge: I'm looking into the chest freezer conversion for this.
#3 freezer: Sun Danzer looks promising.
#4 washing machine: kids make clothes dirty...
#5 clothes dryer: we will use a clothesline all summer, but for winter...
#6 tv: is a kill-a-watt type unit the only way to project what it is using?
#7 the BIG one: hot water tank. I plan to integrate solar water heating for the summer, and a thermosyphon with the wood stove for colder times. I feel I will still need at least some power to keep it hot. I plan to power off the tank after morning showers (we wash clothes with cold). Would a temporary draw to finish heating already warm water from a hot water tank be OK?

There are a few web sites that have calculators for projecting the number of panels and batteries needed. The problem is without knowing exactly what I will be running off the system it is hard to get an accurate number.

If you were in my shoes what would your next step be? Painful exact calculations of energy needs? Could this system be put together in the same ballpark as the cost of a new power pole: $7500? Any other information that I could provide you with that would help?


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Hot water heater and stove/oven are out of the question in an affordable PV system. Use LP or natural gas or wood. Other loads--you really need to know more about your actual appliances and actual electric bills for a couple of years to really do a good job of estimating the size and cost of a PV system.

Our wind and PV system has cost us about $20,000 over the last 30 years, and is adequate to provide most of our power (and charge an electric car and bike some days), but we have LP for cooking and heating water, and a wood furnace to heat the house and do some water heating. We also have 2 refrigerators, and 2 freezers. Solar water heating should be the first thing to do, ahead of solar electricity, because it costs less and has more benefit and will pay for itself quicker. Get a Kill-a-Watt and see what you actually use for TV, washer, fridge, etc. I would say you need a good estimate of energy usage now, but if you want to be 100% off grid, then you do need the "painful" exact calculations, and figure every way possible to save electricity. A dollar spent to reduce electrical use is generally considered to save $3 or $4 in PV system costs.


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## horselover.com (Jul 3, 2006)

http://littlebloginthebigwoods.blog...-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&max-results=23


I love reading this blog, and when I read your post it was the first thing that popped into mind. Perhaps you could get some ideas here that would help you make a more informed decision

good luck-


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## YoungOne (Aug 22, 2006)

Big agrrement with WisJim....
Hot water, stove/oven, heater/furnace are big no-no's for solar. Now that said if you could build a PV system big enough, ie cost no object, it would work .


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

This is my system and its cost at presant is about $7000.00 and you can always expand your system later.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Yup.. Had the same decision here. I went with solar and learned to live with it..

Having a family makes thing a little tougher BUT it's possible if everyone is on the same page. Actually the kids will adjust easier than you... LOL

Look at it as full time camping and being constantly in prusuit of creating luxuries in a frugal manner. Learning to work with what you have will become an everyday habit..

Make a plan of the total basic necessities that would make everyone somewhat comfortable in the begining and expand as you live and learn. Think of what items that will be necessary to operate full time and things (like a washing machine) that can be operated with a generator as needed.. (You should have a genset for a power back up anyway) 

Think outside of the box! My first freezer was a camper sized propane fridge turned all the way up! I bought it for $25 from an old camper that was setting in a junk yard and it worked great until I was able to replace it with a bigger unit.. Then I gave it to another newbee that needed a fridge.. 

I'm sure that there folks here that have encountered whatever issues that you may have. As long as you have access to a computer, all you gotta do is ask..

You're not alone..
~Don


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

WisJim gave good advice. Anything that heats is a problem, or anything with a largish motor that runs for long periods, like air conditioner. A conventional washing machine uses a fair amount of power, but for a load it isn't that much. You could do 10 loads every day or more, & use less power than an electric water heater would. The secret to energy-efficient clothes washing is cold water, unless you have a free way to heat the water, like wood, or solar. The difference in power usage between a conventional Maytag washer & an expensive Staber sold by off-grid outlets, is not that much. My Maytag uses around 15 amp/hours @24 volts per load, which is only 10 to 15% of my total power use (the washer runs on 110ac thru an inverter, but my power production is measured in24 volts). One thing you didn't mention is water pumping. If you buy some land with a deep well, that will present a significant additional load for your off-grid system. Impossible to calculate your needs until you know what the water scene is.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

I should describe our system a bit, instead of just throwing out the total cost. We started in 1977 when we moved to a house not connected to the grid that we had built over the previous summer. We had bought an old Delco engine generator unit and found an old wind generator while answering ads for beekeeping equipment, so by the time we moved into our new house we did have the 32 volt DC Delco light plant and we had the wind generator and tower ready to go. For awhile we used a set of old telephone company batteries and the Delco plant to provide 32v DC power for lights and old 32v appliances such as toaster, waffle iron, fans, and AM radio that we had gotten at farm auctions or from friends. After we put up the windgenerator, we had more power than we had gotten used to using, and our system grew gradually over the years. The first windgenerator (put up in 1935 by the original owners) was soon replaced by a 1940s vintage Jacobs unit, which we still use. We added PVs when they got affordable (at least affordable in our opinion, back in the mid 1980s) and then got a Sunfrost 12 volt refrigerator at about the same time as the PVs. Since then we have moved the entire system to a different home, added more PVs a couple of times, and switched to a new set of batteries and a 24volt inverter system that provides us with 110volt AC power just like "normal" people buy from the utility.

We started out small and simple and used the power that we had available. We didn't start out with a list of what we "needed" to power, rather we put up a system that we could afford and used the amount of electricity that it gave us. We raised 3 sons while doing this, too, the youngest of which is going to be 27 this summer.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

*WisJim:* Hot water: some articles I've read suggest people have eliminated 100% of their water heating costs with solar water heating. I'm assuming that combining this with wood heating as well I should be able to get the same results. This may simply have to become "part of the adventure". Just do it and make it work.

I do have the electric bills for the past couple of years, and we averaged over the past 27 months 25kwh per day, so a whopping 775kwh per month. To be fair though this is actually for 2 households. My parents live in the upstairs suite. So 2 sets of everything, and my parents don't exactly turn out the lights, or turn off the TV when they are gone... but that's another story that ends in 6 more days. So living as we are today we would cut that amount in half just by being out on our own. Combine that with cutting out all of the things I mentioned above, it is hard to say how low we can go. My thought at this point is to take the money that we would be spending to put in power poles, and use that amount towards a solar system as big as we can afford. Over time we can increase this as needed.

I would really like to stay away from gas/lp as the prices are climbing. I need to find a solution for baking bread, so I need to investigate that further.

We are not taking anything electronic with us except for the laptop and TV, so I could measure that, but that's pretty much it.

*no1cowboy* Thanks for the look at your system. It looks like we'll be settling down in the Drayton Valley area, what part of Alberta are you in? I'd love to have a look at a live solar/wind setup in action some day if that was alright with you.

*dunewalker:* 160 feet seems to be a pretty common depth in this area, a handful are 300, and some others 80, but the majority 160. I read an article somewhere that you can get efficient DC well pumps, but they will cost an extra $1000. I'll need to see if I can find that again.

Thanks for the input everyone. If you have suggestions of what type of system you would put together in the 7000-8000 price range to get started I would love to hear it.


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

Mark,Cheryl, you mentioned that your records show an average of 775kwh where you're at now, divided by 2 for 2 households = around 400kwh. That works out to around 13kwh or so daily. My solar/wind system would cost around $10,000 in today's dollars and produces 1kwh or less daily in the winter to possibly 2 or 2.5kwh daily on a windy summer day(can't tell for sure because it shuts itself down if the power is not being used). So you can roughly see what sort of adjustments downward you're going to be making.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

*dunewalker:* Thanks for that, I expect quite an adjustment.


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## whistler (Apr 20, 2005)

mark.cheryl said:


> *WisJim:*I would really like to stay away from gas/lp as the prices are climbing.


Let's use the numbers from dunewalker's system and do a little math on this one. 

Start by assuming a $10000 system with the expectation it will be cost free for 20 years (unlikely due to components like batteries wearing out). Let's further assume you generate 720 khw per year (or slightly less than 2 kwh per day, which is a pretty high estimate) your cost over the 20 year 'lifespan' is $0.69 per kilowatt hour.

Using an energy equivalency chart, this system would not become more cost efficient than propane until it's cost exceeds $16.72 per gallon (assuming 90% efficiency rate for gas appliances and 100% efficiency rates for electric appliances).

Whistler


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

*whilstler:* Tell me if I'm wrong: For an existing on-grid home that might be fair, but on the same calculation with putting in the power pole for ~$8000 it will cost me pretty much $0.65 per kwh over a 20 year lifespan anyways excluding the $20-30 a month just to be attached to the grid, and excluding energy inflation. Or maybe I am totally off and what you meant was it would take a $10000 system just to run the oven and hot water. I won't rule out propane for cooking. But I would like a way around it.


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## whistler (Apr 20, 2005)

mark.cheryl said:


> *whilstler:* Tell me if I'm wrong: For an existing on-grid home that might be fair, but on the same calculation with putting in the power pole for ~$8000 it will cost me pretty much $0.65 per kwh over a 20 year lifespan anyways excluding the $20-30 a month just to be attached to the grid, and excluding energy inflation. Or maybe I am totally off and what you meant was it would take a $10000 system just to run the oven and hot water. I won't rule out propane for cooking. But I would like a way around it.


A standard electric oven uses a 2.6 kw element. Burners vary between 1.2 kw and 2.5 kw.

The hypothetical system I described above produces slightly less that 2 kwh per day. That means your $10000 system would be able to run a one stove top burner for one hour per day (or 2 burners for 30 minutes each). And nothing else, no lights, no fans, no computers, not the oven. Or you could probably get an hour per day out of your oven because the element isn't always on.

So for 10 grand you can operate your electric stove long enough to cook dinner.

Whistler


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

Awesome, that makes it clear. Thanks.


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## whistler (Apr 20, 2005)

mark.cheryl said:


> *whilstler:* Or maybe I am totally off and what you meant was it would take a $10000 system just to run the oven and hot water.


The Kenmore Power Miser electric hot water heater uses 4622 kwh hours per year, or approximatly 6.5 times more energy than our hypothetical $10000 system. So, upgrading to a $65,000 system would allow you to operate only the water heater.

Add in the cost to run the electric oven and you are at $75000 but are still without lights. 



> I won't rule out propane for cooking. But I would like a way around it.


 Wood or coal.


Whistler


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

So how do solar hot water systems compare?

They would also give you the independence form propane.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

I think solar hot water can be done really cheap, my concern is to regulate it. I'm thinking that for hot water we will do a solar hot water system combined with wood stove to heat the water in the cool weather.


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

Mark,cheryl, I need to expand a bit here, in a couple of areas. First, "peak power". When I mentioned that my system shuts down if there's no need to produce, it reminded me of the concept of power management. You can support your family's needs with a $10,000 system by planning your loads. For example, you could use the conventional washing machine you probably already own instead of investing $1,200 for a fancy "energy-efficient" one by doing laundry on a sunny morning. Then you get to run the machine "direct-drive"--straight from the sun, and end the day with full batteries, vs doing laundry in the evening and depleting your storage. Any large loads, like table saw, vacuuming, etc. need to get done in the am. Even water pumping can be managed this way with a largish storage tank and conventional pump, followed by a normal pressure tank with a small diaphragm pump providing pressure. You use the sun watts to fill the big tank, then run the little 80 watt pump off the battery for 24 hour needs. Using the above power management strategy it's possible to double, even triple the production of your system. The other area is water heating and cooking. Heat the house with wood & plumb the stove for hot water. Get a wood cookstove with an oven for those needs. Get a solar oven for summer baking. They really work and are cheap. I'm not just making this stuff up, this is how my homestead is run. I've never owned a "back-up generator" and never will--it's not necessary, if you're willing to adjust your needs to the availability of power, as you mentioned you are.


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## whistler (Apr 20, 2005)

dunewalker said:


> Using the above power management strategy it's possible to double, even triple the production of your system.


This is kind of misleading. 

You cannot triple the number of watts you capture from the sun without tripling the number/size of the panels. A person can certainly organize their routine to be three times more effecient in their use of those captured watts. But the system really isn't any more effecient, just the operator of said system.

whistler


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

I think things are starting to click a bit more for me now. With planning ahead my wife can alternate tasks depending on the weather etc. The key really is then what I expect my load to be constantly, and adjust for what is needed to run. The more efficient things are, the more I would be able to run at once. I am assuming that I will be able to set up meters easily seen from the living space to keep track of how things are going? I really feel better now that it has clicked for me. I know that we need to make real changes in our lifestyle, even being well below the average already. I've become more and more Green as well in this moving to the homestead process, and it feels good that this is a reality within grasp. Now I just need to convince my mother to buy my 50" plasma tv...


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

If you used a Pioneer Maid woodstove with the waterpipe heat exchanger to a thermo siphon system you will have plenty of hot water by just cooking on it,certainly enough for showers.Use it for space heating too you will have a LOT of steaming hot water.If you have the wood resource its a very nice set-up.

Stove new runs about 2200 bux.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Something I posted at another board...
--------------------------------------------------------










This is the 557 pound,steel welded Pioneer wood cookstove.This is a utilitarian stove,not made for beauty but for function and longevity.It has a nice stainless steel cooktop.

It will easily heat 2000 foot as claimed,it was heating 1400 sq/ft in 20 degree weather and it was loafing along to that.

This stove will also heat your hot water.With the optional 100 USD heat exchanger pipe it can be plumbed to a hot water tank and will provide plenty of hot water for 4 people.So for 100 dollars,get the exchange pipe.It also has a water tank that is opened from the top of the cooking top,but really is pretty useless,maybe adds a little humidity but doesnt do much else.

The damper controls SQUEEK like crazy when you adjust them,but controlling of burn is very precise.You can also control if you want heat to circulate around the oven.

Oven has a thermometer in the door and oven temps are accurately controlled.It is firebrick lined and good sized too.

The firebox is accessed by the top of the stovetop on the left.It has one of the largest fireboxes available.16 inch logs feed easily.It burns clean,leaving fine ash behind.

It claims overnight burn times,but not sure how they do that,we would put in 2 logs,damp it down and you better be up in 4 hours to refill it was my experience.Could just be I dont know what Im doing,but thats what we got.

At about 2200.00 USD,this is a very nice stove.Highly recommend this product.
=================================
OK,I just spent a couple weeks by myself with this stove.

I was able to damp it overnight with one log in it,so I can say it lives up to that claim.

As for the oven,it has to be HOT to get oven above 350 degrees.

As for hot water,3 adults and we never ran out of hot water,the heat exchanger to a water tank works great.

All in all this stove lives up to its claims and its price.

This is the firebox,I used about 5-6 pieces of 16 inch long Oak per day,temps were in the 40F range at night and mid 60's during the day.That translates to cool during day and chilly at night in Celcius.That would be the access from the stovetop about where the cast iron fry pan sits


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

Whistler, this is not misleading, this is fact. Follow me here. I've got 620 watts worth of panels hooked to 8 Trojan L-16H batteries. When that battery bank is full, the Xantrex C-30 controller disconnects the panels and they do not produce any power. This usually happens mid-day here right now, based on what I use. So the rest of the day's potential production is wasted. A system properly balanced between size of PV array and battery bank is capable of producing more than the batteries can store, in high productive periods. By using appliances during high production, you actually generate more power by this time management--it's not just more efficient.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

That looks like a great system. I'll need to investigate further. Thanks *mightybooboo*.


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

dunewalker is this an older controler? I also use an Xantrex C-Series controler and all the documentation I have seen the controler does not disconect the panels it goes into a float stage and continues to charge the batterys.



> In the Charge Control mode, the C-Series controls how the
> batteries are charged by the DC source (solar, wind, or
> hydro). It uses a 3-stage charging protocol to maintain battery
> voltage at bulk and/or float levels.
> ...


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

no1cowboy, this is a fairly new controller--my original C-40 malfunctioned. Once your batteries reach the float stage, the controller reduces the wattage produced by the panels to only enough to maintain the float voltage, which on my 24 volt system is 26.8 volts with lead-acid batteries. If you have a 12 volt system, your float voltage is 13.4 volts. You can test this next time you have a solid green light and all loads are removed. Turn someting on, like your computer--within a minute or so the controller will permit the panels to produce just that amount, so you can actually measure the wattage of various appliances this way, by turning them on one at a time for a few minutes, like the refrigerator, etc. Make sure nothing else is on. Remember though, that the controller rounds to the nearest amp, not the exact wattage. Say your computer uses 45 watts and you have a 12 volt system. Your controller will read either 40 or 53 watts/3 or 4 amps, entering the batteries, not 45 (that is, amps @13.4 volts, not 12 volts). It may bounce back & forth between the two readings, as the batteries need a extra little shot.


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

dunewalker said:


> Once your batteries reach the float stage, the controller reduces the wattage produced by the panels to only enough to maintain the float voltage, which on my 24 volt system is 26.8 volts with lead-acid batteries. If you have a 12 volt system, your float voltage is 13.4 volts


Yes but my point was that the controler does not disconect the panels as you said in your other post, they continue to produce power. I can watch TV all day long and still have fully charged batterys (on sunny days)


dunewalker said:


> I've got 620 watts worth of panels hooked to 8 Trojan L-16H batteries. When that battery bank is full, the Xantrex C-30 controller disconnects the panels and they do not produce any power.


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

no1cowboy, I just visited your link that shows your power system--great set-up & photos, thanks. I see that you do not have a digital read-out face plate on your controller, so you cannot see what your panels are producing, unless there's another piece of equipment there I missed.

Added commentL Whistler & no1cowboy may both be technically correct that the panels continue producing as long as there is sun. But all production flows through the controller, and is only available for use if the controller permits it through, which is dependent upon the state of charge of the batteries. It's like your bath tub faucet. You can't leave it on once the tub is full. The pipe may have water under pressure, but it's constrained.


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

dunewalker said:


> no1cowboy, I just visited your link that shows your power system--great set-up & photos, thanks. I see that you do not have a digital read-out face plate on your controller, so you cannot see what your panels are producing, unless there's another piece of equipment there I missed.


to the left of the controler in the pic you can see 3 red meters 2 of them are tied to the controler and show the amps and volts.


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

no1cowboy said:


> Yes but my point was that the controler does not disconect the panels as you said in your other post, they continue to produce power. I can watch TV all day long and still have fully charged batterys (on sunny days)


no1cowboy, I think we agree. The panels may continue to produce power, but it isn't coming through unless you turn your tv on. Like you say and I said above, you can use the tv all day and the batteries will stay full---the controller is letting through just what we are using. Impressive setup you've got there by the way, almost like an airplane cockpit.


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## whistler (Apr 20, 2005)

dunewalker said:


> Whistler, this is not misleading, this is fact. Follow me here. I've got 620 watts worth of panels hooked to 8 Trojan L-16H batteries. When that battery bank is full, the Xantrex C-30 controller disconnects the panels and they do not produce any power. This usually happens mid-day here right now, based on what I use. So the rest of the day's potential production is wasted. A system properly balanced between size of PV array and battery bank is capable of producing more than the batteries can store, in high productive periods. By using appliances during high production, you actually generate more power by this time management--it's not just more efficient.


I understand what you are saying: by being conscientious you can use your system to its fullest extent possible. 

But, no matter how you schedule your chores, distribute your loads, or plan ahead, your panels will never *produce* more than 620 watts. In no way shape or form will your panels ever *produce* 1860 watts. 

As you said, when the batteries are full the panels do you no good. So by making sure you use all the available power when the batteries are full you are using resources that would otherwise go to waste; i.e. you are running the system more effeciently. 

The panels themselves aren't capturing any extra solar energy during this time which is the point I was trying to make. You are not producing energy over and above the theoretical maximum production of your set, you are just closer to reaching that point. That's all..

whistler


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

Whistler, you have mis-interpreted what I said, which was:

" Using the above power management strategy it's possible to double, even triple the production of your system." 

I was using the term "production" differently than you read it, sorry. By production I meant productivity, does that sound better. Of course you can't change the numbers on the panels.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

dunewalker said:


> WisJim gave good advice. Anything that heats is a problem, or anything with a largish motor that runs for long periods, like air conditioner. A conventional washing machine uses a fair amount of power, but for a load it isn't that much. You could do 10 loads every day or more, & use less power than an electric water heater would. The secret to energy-efficient clothes washing is cold water, unless you have a free way to heat the water, like wood, or solar. The difference in power usage between a conventional Maytag washer & an expensive Staber sold by off-grid outlets, is not that much. My Maytag uses around 15 amp/hours @24 volts per load, which is only 10 to 15% of my total power use (the washer runs on 110ac thru an inverter, but my power production is measured in24 volts). One thing you didn't mention is water pumping. If you buy some land with a deep well, that will present a significant additional load for your off-grid system. Impossible to calculate your needs until you know what the water scene is.



Never underestimate the value of collecting rain water. There are ultraviolet light purifying systems available. We have used ceramic filters to supplement what we buy bottled, but they are slow, maybe a gallon per day. 
Winter was a trial. Eventually I began storing containers of rain water (and the culligan water we buy at WM 4 4 gallon jugs at a time) in an old 140 gallon, foam hot tub we brought to our off-grid home like we were the Beverly Hillbillies. Rough on an old body, fer sure!

I have a few thoughts for Mark and Cheryl. I have not been able to read the entire thread do to solar power limitations (we have 4 35 watt Arco panels from the seventies) so sorry if someone has covered these topics.

We have a not at all airtight box stove. We also have more oak wood down on the ground than we could ever burn. ***WE USE CAST IRON FOR EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN INCLUDING A 2 1/2 QUART KETTLE!***

We can heat enough water for a bath in our 30 gallon stock tank as long as long as we use 2 gallon ice coolers (now they are warmers) to hold some hot water while more heats. Remember it is a long burning day. We have also learned to take a bath with a cup and a gallon of hot water in a bowl, using the tub to collect the water as we rinse. In the summer we heat enough "rounds" of water to have a 40 gallon bath in a claw foot tub in our "under the stars" bathroom. We use propane when we have to.

We have managed to bake primitive bread in the stove, and even a meat loaf, using incredible mounds of hot coals- under and over the pan. Grilled cheese in or on the stove- same with eggs. Sourdough English muffins are made in a fry pan. Times are much faster using the hot coals.

You can get clothing to dry in below freezing temps if you are patient. I can't say what happens below 20 deg. F though. We dry lots of clothes near the wood stove when we need to. We wash only at the laundromat when I am in town, and have a 3 stage utility tub system here. It doesn't take as long as you might think. 

You can get the watts a TV uses from the back panel, and the manufacturer can help there as well.

One problem we have had is Internet. Our connection is 26.4 K. We use VTR Rocket with an accelerator that lowers graphic quality unless you click on an image. We have been reluctant to invest in satelite or cell phone internet. 

Good Luck,

Rick


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

mark.cheryl said:


> Chances are very high that our new property (~5 acres) will not have power on it. I know that in this area the cost is around ~$7500 for a single power pole, plus some other costs I am sure. Knowing this I want to take a look at solar. Wind might be an option, but will need to be added later. With this kind of cost up-front to install a new power service, I would assume that solar would be able to pay for itself much faster than if the house was already on the grid. I am very new to solar technology, but have read a few web sites, and a bunch of posts. Currently our family of 5 already uses about half the power of the average US household. We have no microwave, no hair dryers, no A/C units, all lights are CFLs, and lights are off unless needed. When we move to the acreage we expect to cut this quite a bit further by eliminating a bunch of phantom loads, replacing a computer that runs 24/7 with a laptop, reducing fridge size, no more forced-air furnace, no more dishwasher, etc. As we will be looking for property and hopefully purchasing within the next 2-3 weeks I need to make some quick decisions. The major power suckers I forsee are:
> #1 oven: my wife bakes all of our bread, cookies, etc.
> #2 fridge: I'm looking into the chest freezer conversion for this.
> #3 freezer: Sun Danzer looks promising.
> ...


There are two issues here, First can you go off grid for around $7500 and the answer is yes. The next part is what do you need to give up to do it. 
In general if you have access to commercial power for a reasonable price (and you do) solar will not be cost effective without radical changes in your lifestyle. 

#1 oven: my wife bakes all of our bread, cookies, etc. 
Not issues, just move to propane or gas

#2 fridge: I'm looking into the chest freezer conversion for this.
#3 freezer: Sun Danzer looks promising.
Doable options but your options are more expensive and smaller in inside storage.

#4 washing machine: kids make clothes dirty...
Manageable with PV

#5 clothes dryer: we will use a clothesline all summer, but for winter...
Move to a LP/gas dryer.

#6 tv: is a kill-a-watt type unit the only way to project what it is using?
Home electronics can be pain but there are work around. A power strip to shut offpower instead of TV power off button. Takes a little longer to startup but can work.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Need some more info on that >"$7500 for a single pole"< 
Is that a hard and fast quote ?
Seems a bit pricy for just one pole. .!
What kind of distance "to the grid" are you talking

OK so you do 'go it your self'
Add up say 10 years of electric utility bills
. . . . . .
Surprise . . .you might wanna think into a larger system from the git go. . . . .

And unless your little piece of heaven there in Canada has 360 days of sun..........don't forget a quality generator.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

*Jim-mi:* That was one quote for one location. We will be picking out an purchasing the property we want in the next 30 days. During that process we will be able to find out from the power company their exact quote for the location. Apparently $7500 is a good average in the area though. I'm assuming that is the cost of the whole package, pole, transformer, meter, whatever else.

I wish I had the funds to setup a system with 10 years worth of electric bills up-front. I will need to add-on as time goes on.

Actually this property does have 360 days of sun, and only rains at night.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for the input so far everyone. Is the best way to decide on a system just to call around to the local solar companies, and see what package they would put together for that amount of money? I know the very basics: panels, to charge controller, to deep cycle batteries, to pure sine wave inverter. Generator for backup. There are so many of each thing to choose from, it could take me weeks and weeks to research it all. Is there some basic advice like "don't touch Kyocera panels with a 10 foot pole", or "if you want to upgrade within a couple years start with at least 3500 watt inverter."? Or if someone wanted to put together a basic list of what you would setup in this price range that would help a lot as well.


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

myself I like sharp panels Trojan Batterys Xantrex controlers/Inverters A modified sine is cheaper and in my opinion just as good, 


> it could take me weeks and weeks to research it all. Is there some basic advice like "don't touch Kyocera panels with a 10 foot pole", or "if you want to upgrade within a couple years start with at least 3500 watt inverter."?


This type of question maybe like asking some one if they like ford or chev. lol


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Idealy sitting down with a designer\installer will get you the most bang for your limited buck.
Beware of some of the bad advice that forums like this will sprout.
Often times that will lead you to poor equipment because of somebody pinching pennys to tightly.

You do have a difficult challange going from the "endless" electric use now, . .to a very tight budget of electric use "off grid"........
Luck to ya

BTW . . Kyocera is quality stuff.


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

I bought a lot of my stuff, especially upgrades, from the people at Backwoods Solar in Idaho. They specialize in off-grid systems and components and have helped me tremendously. In their catalog they list several examples of systems, from basic to fancy, with the costs/capacity ranges for each example. Ask for a catalog. No, I don't work there...

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I lived off grid for 13 years. My original grid quote was 75K, plus purchasing and clearing two miles of ROW... which would have doubled the price. 

Some of the folks here have more recent/relevant experience.

My opinion... the 7500$ grid hookup is cheap. If you want to move straight off grid with the same lifestyle your living now, with electric stoves and hot water, you'll be looking at ten times the 7500$ figure, to just get started. A solar electric system has to have regular battery replacements, unless you get the very expensive ones... which can easily cost the 7500$. And a very good generator (diesel or gas) for backup purposes... I've driven through Western Canada in three of the four seasons, and never made a complete run (the Alcan) without some rainy periods. A good basic genny (that'll last for regular use) will run >3K.

The system once installed, needs monitoring. And if something goes wrong, you have to fix it yourself.

If you have a sack full of money, you can overbuild the system to meet any demand. If you want something half reasonable, eliminate all resistive loads, and go with wood or propane for cooking/heating.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

whistler said:


> But, no matter how you schedule your chores, distribute your loads, or plan ahead, your panels will never *produce* more than 620 watts. In no way shape or form will your panels ever *produce* 1860 watts.


Is that 620w/hr or is it 620w/day without knowing the units its hard to answer the question. If its 620w/hr then 1.8kw/hr would be easy its only 3 hrs of work.

also with a good power manager your daytime power should come directly off the panel and ONLY when there is no panel power would you go to reserves


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

Gary, Whistler was responding to my earlier post, where I described my 620 watt array and its potential production with management, as you say. How did I get 620 watts? Well, 4 original panels of 75 watts each, then add-on 4 new panels of 80 watts each = 620 watts. The new panels are actually smaller than the old ones, but more effective. I agree with no1cowboy that a modified sine wave inverter seems to be fine with every appliance I've plugged into it, even charging cubes for cordless drills. Anyone else have problems with modified sine wave? Btw mine's a Xantrex DR1524.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

dunewalker said:


> Gary, Whistler was responding to my earlier post, where I described my 620 watt array and its potential production with management, as you say. How did I get 620 watts? Well, 4 original panels of 75 watts each, then add-on 4 new panels of 80 watts each = 620 watts.


But your 620w is w/hr, so even on a short winter day with with only hrs of sunlight you have the ability to generate almost 2500watts of charging power.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Gary in ohio said:


> But your 620w is w/hr, so even on a short winter day with with only hrs of sunlight you have the ability to generate almost 2500watts of charging power.



The 620 is watts, not watts/hour--it is the rated output of the panels in watts. The potential generation in a day might be 2500 watt-hours of electricity, or 2.5kwhours, but that would be a really good day with 620 watts of rated peak output of panels, as they don't produce the 620 watts all the time, but rather at a somewhat theoretical amount of sunshine and temp.

Sometimes it is hard or confusing to keep these terms straight.


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## Willowdale (Mar 19, 2007)

Relevant aside: there's a tax credit in place now for new solar installations that expires at the end of 2008. $2000 max credit, or 30% of system price (Don't quote me!) whichever is lower. 

There's no definite word on whether there will be alt energy credits for residences next year (it's way political).

Anyway, it's something to take into account with timing your purchase. I'm going to do some solar panels and all my power equipment this year, and then wait to add wind when there's a tax break for it, or when I'm sure there won't be one again.

My local quote to connect to the grid was THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!

Makes my investment in off-grid power pretty easy to justify! But yeah, I'm using propane and wood instead of any resistive loads in the house.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Willowdale said:


> Relevant aside: there's a tax credit in place now for new solar installations that expires at the end of 2008. $2000 max credit, or 30% of system price (Don't quote me!) whichever is lower.
> 
> There's no definite word on whether there will be alt energy credits for residences next year (it's way political).


I believe they are in Canada.


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## mark.cheryl (Jan 6, 2008)

Our government up here in Canada has some type of rebate that I will look into, but I don't know the amount yet.


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

We have been off grid for 4 years, without a major up front investment...
You just have to time your activities.
We have one 40 watt solar panel, haha...we have a gas gennie (actually we have two, one big one to handle the 1 hp well pump and DH's big toys, like air compressor etc, and a small one I use to charge batteries).

In the evening we wash cloths, watch tv, use electric appliances (bread machine etc), while the small gennie is running and recharging the 4 L16 batteries through the 2000 watt mod sine wave inverter. When we go to bed the batteries are fully charged, and in winter run the propane/12 volt heaters all night. Then all day I can use the rest of the battery charge for Computer, whatever.
Fridge is RV propane. Lights are 12 volt flourescent.

We pump from the well into a large water tank once a week or two. Then the water runs downhill to the house where a 12 volt pump gives us pressure.

We have an electric washer and 110v dryer, but I mostly use a clothline, except in freezing/rainy weather.

So you CAN do it "on the cheap" as long as you are willing to live slightly differently than you do now...


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

bbbuddy . . . . .I'd like to see you post how many hours a day that your -$4 a gallon- gennies run.

Yes you can go el cheapo . . . .But what are you gonna end up paying for >gasoline< . . . and the rebuild of your worn out gennies . . . . . . . . . . .??

The point is to build a system so as to live comfortably with very very little fuel generator 'run' time.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

bbbuddy said:


> We have been off grid for 4 years, without a major up front investment...
> You just have to time your activities.
> We have one 40 watt solar panel, haha...we have a gas gennie (actually we have two, one big one to handle the 1 hp well pump and DH's big toys, like air compressor etc, and a small one I use to charge batteries).
> 
> ...



bbbuddy

Are you able to charge your batts through the 2000 watt mod sine wave inverter without using a battery charger?

Rick


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

bbbuddy,

What good does it do to go off the electric grid only to be tied to the gasoline grid? Your still just as dependent on outside influences and I'd bet that gasoline is costing more than electricity form the grid.

WWW


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