# Which livestock is the most profitable?



## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Just curious! I am guessing cattle.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

summerfarm said:


> Just curious! I am guessing cattle.


It all depends upon management. There are no guarantees of profit with any livestock that I ever heard of.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

IDK but sheep sell for more per pound.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most profitable livestock, most profitable crop, most profitable business is very elusive. As soon as something looks profitable, everyone jumps on it and supply drives the price down. 
A few years ago, roadside pumpkin sales was a big money maker. So, now everyone is selling pumpkins and there isn't any profit in it. Prices went from $5 each to $10 a truck load.
Right now cattle prices are high. So, to get into cattle raising, you have to buy high priced breeding stock. Called buying high. Input costs are high, corn and hay is costly. So, when you sell, the high price (if it is still high) might not cover your costs.
Many people have gone broke getting into an Ag product when it is at its price peak, then being forced to sell when the price bottoms out.
If you can figure out what advantage you have that others don't, capitalize on that. As an example, I live where the soil and climate isn't good for corn. But can grow hay. Land prices are lower than most areas. Renting land for summer pasture is profitable. Making and exporting hay is profitable, due to lower land costs. Buying feeder calves and raising them on cheap hay and available pasture reduces input costs and increases the chance to profit.
If you live near a big city, perhaps a CSA would work. That might be a bad choice if you live in a low population area.
If you live near an alcohol plant, brewers grains might be available as a supplement to quality feed. 
Salesmanship is the most profitable farm product. Ride the Buy Local wave.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Thanks!! I am not sure what is demand in my area so guess I need to do some research. Right now I live in southern Colorado but will eventually be moving to southern NM to 80 acres with water rights. I only have experience with poultry up to this point but am hoping to get into a more profitable business when I move to southern NM. I have heard pheasant is good for selling to local hunters.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Right now, cattle are high and it seems that due to nationwide shortages on beef they're gonna stay high for a long time to come. Doesn't look like corn and other grains are gonna come down in price anytime soon either. That being said, cattle are not the most profitable for someone getting in new to the business. 

Depending on how much grass and other roughage you have, buying a product low and waiting on the market niche seems to be the way to go. However, many of us "farmers" with good intentions of making it pay have ventured off into diverse products only to see that the niche market is flooded with them by the time we get into it. 

My daughter started raising hairsheep a few years ago as an ag project and interesting enough she made money. They required very little input and sold very well. The were very hardy, fertile, and didn't require much maintenance at all. When she got married she decided to sell her herd of around 35 and made good money to those who had decided to jump in. Now, the market in my local area is expensive to get in to with breeding ewes selling for double what she paid 10 years ago. 

Goats have become more and more popular over the past 15 years but goats today are not the goats of yesterday. Back a few years ago goats were hardy and would eat sticks, rocks, tin cans, and all others sorts of undesireable stuff. Nowadays, the boar market has bred the hardiness out of them. Parasites are such a problem it's almost impossible to keep them healthy. 

Horses are a complete money pit.

emus are out!

Specialty breeds of bovine like highland, dexters, etc require a niche market buyer.

Hogs have gone to a corporate level of raising with not many local markets available in most areas of the country for small breeders.

Therefore, imho, the only thing that is profitable is what you can raise with very low input and eat them yourself or sell to locals as organic or homegrown.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Sounds like corporate farmers have made it almost impossible for other farmers. I think I will try to break in to the local organic market and see how that goes. Might start with a little bit of everything to see what sells best first then focus more on whatever that might be.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Roosters here, (near Tulsa) sell for $7 to $10. Ethinic mkt.
Rabbits go for near nothing, $2 to $5
Hens go for around $5 to $15 ethenic AND regular people buying
Hogs sell great IF they reach around 150# for BBQs, BUYING feed is a killer tho'
Cows sell great also,. AND, hay is cheap. hard to get $40 out of a 5 X 5 bale
Turkeys sell for $30 thereabouts full grown, but only at Thanksgiving time.
I usta keep up with goats, but havnt since I sold mine.
Hard to find sheep here.


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

I think that lb for lb, probably goats are a good money maker. they do require a lot of labor, but they do make money.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Do you sell them for meat or sell milk? Or both? What type of goats?


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

I'd still go with pigs, hands down. They reproduce quickly, they don't have a huge start up cost, equipment is fairly basic, and turn around is pretty quick. Cattle you have to wait a couple years at least to get a calf, then several months to wean it & either sell it or feed it more months. If your cow loses a calf, you're out 9 months and have to wait another year for another calf. Goats and sheep, you have to have quite a few to make enough to be worthwhile. So in my book, it's still pigs.  There's a reason they were known as 'mortgage lifters' for many, many years!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

CCR. I see you don't mention the feed differences in the 2 kinds of animals. Yes, cattle make money for those having the land to keep them on grass, and to make hay for. hogs nee all their feed either bought at a high price, or raise on enough land to grow the feed necessary, PLUS money for machinery, seed, fertilizer, gas, ect. THAT takes a Chunk of money


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

rabbits for me were the money maker I sold to show dog and performance dog owners to feed raw. we also had goats. the labor was intense hooves worming and kidding and keeping them in was impossible. we moved to a rocky area and couldn't keep the fence grounded enough to work most of the time when we had 3 yr. of horrid drought. the hardiness of the goats was a joke and the babies under a yr. could die in less than 24 hr from pneumonia. raised them for 7+ yrs. goats around here are a pyramid scheme. 

I like the feeder pigs but finding them is tough and we only raise them to give to family not to sell. they are so easy to raise.

chickens are fun but expensive if they have to be kept in a run due to dogs and other critters. dh jokes that the eggs we get are still around $100.00 a doz. we have been wiped out a few times from just forgetting to close the gate one time.


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## ATPFARM (Dec 31, 2012)

$8.33 an egg sounds good...if your the guy selling the egg....


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## homstdr74 (Jul 4, 2011)

Right now I'd say cattle are the best moneymaker, but only if you don't have to invest a lot of money to begin with. If your property is properly set up, fences tight, you have plenty of feed, can keep the cattle healthy and don't require too many vet services, you're good to go, because people always eat beef.

But if you're talking about animals being profitable for a self-sufficient homestead, from my experience milk goats win hands down. We had them for years--I sectioned off a certain portion of the property for their pasture, and within five years just from the production of milk for our own personal use those goats had paid off the cost of the land upon which they grazed, fed a family of five with milk and cheese products, and remained mostly healthy enough that there were no costs associated with vet bills. They also kept their own acreage looking as clean as a nice park, unlike the other animals we have kept.

After our goats we raised some beef for ourselves, and that is also wonderful but wouldn't come close to the economics of goats. Then we also have miniature horses, but they're mostly for decoration since the market has more or less dropped on them. But we do enjoy having them around. We've also raised hogs, and, again, found them to be more profitable for our own use, not necessarily for selling. We have kept rabbits, also, and they rate up there with goats, when it comes to quality meat products and ease of care, but if I had to make a decision I'd rather have goats than rabbits. I don't even want to talk about bees--we've tried them twice until I decided I'm no beekeeper.

So I say it's beef if you want to market meat, but goats if you want a homestead animal that will help homestead economics.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

We keep about 18 chickens... feed cost is high just for the eggs we get, and eat. We free range them in warmer months but they hide their nests so its a loss then too unless you want to hunt eggs everyday.

Pigs... we have yet to turn a profit, at best its a break even with hay and grain prices being what they are and living up north. I am going to push roasting hogs this year I think, scalding etc. I need to set up for that though so its another added cost... and more time required. Kinda reminds me of that old tv commercial about drugs... i can do more so i can buy more so i can do more so i can buy more so... doesn't that meet the definition of insanity?! :screwy:


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Most profitable? Per acre? Per investment dollar? Per man hour? Do you want to spend your hours in direct marketing or managing a larger herd for commodity sales?


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Anything that is fed at home, on pasture is going to be profitable. My sheep have a zero feed cost. They graze and eat hay that I cut. After the initial outlay of good breed stock and fencing, the costs to produce grass fed lamb is very minimal.

The biggest cost is processing, which is higher per pound than for beef. I have never tried cattle, not really set up for it. But my guess is that there is a bigger, more readily available market for it but it sells for less per pound.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

Twobottom, pigs cannot survive on pasture alone as far as I know... there isn't enough protein available year round. Maybe in the extreme southern states if "planted" legumes grow year round. Diesel fuel or gas is a cost, worn or broken tools, implements, seed etc ... fence as you said ... I'm not sure anything raised at home is always profitable... break even maybe depending on the weather.

I agree the butcher makes a profit!


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

the operation where you minimize your actual cost of goods sold. Both fixed and variable overheads.

You may GET more per pound for mutton, but there's not the volume you have with beef. Consumerism at its finest. Supply and demand.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

Just realized this is the cattle forum... . Oops!


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

yeah, but he asked a general livestock question about profitability and to me, that's more a business-type question.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

farmerj said:


> yeah, but he asked a general livestock question about profitability and to me, that's more a business-type question.


+1, agree.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

HerseyMI said:


> Twobottom, pigs cannot survive on pasture alone as far as I know... there isn't enough protein available year round. Maybe in the extreme southern states if "planted" legumes grow year round. Diesel fuel or gas is a cost, worn or broken tools, implements, seed etc ... fence as you said ... I'm not sure anything raised at home is always profitable... break even maybe depending on the weather.
> 
> I agree the butcher makes a profit!


No, pigs cannot survive on pasture in most places, thats why I dont see anyone making a profit with pigs accept the big outfits.

As far as the costs go, I raised six lambs last year on pasture, Used about $100 dollars worth of diesel fuel for haying AND planting/cultivating almost an acre of garden. I broke a shovel in Oct...had to replace it for $30. Lambs sold for $9 per pound hanging weight at the farmers market and some through local people. Average weight at about 35 lbs, and butcher costs of about $60 a head. Market cost $200 for the season, but we also sell veggies there so I'll cut that in half for the sheep model costs.

So...I'm no accountant, but by my math;

35x9=315
315-60=255
255x6=1,530 - $100= 1,430

I suppose there might be a few other hidden costs, like gas to transport here and there, and etc. So I'll deduct another $200 just to be safe though I think this is an over-estimate.

1,430-200= 1,230. Thats what I figure I profited from 6 little sheep that didn't cost me more than 15 minutes a day to bring them to pasture and back again at night. Of course I did not count the freezer full of lamb that would have cost me a couple hundred dollars..which is pure profit in that I did the butchering myself and had no exterior costs. We have to eat, so without the sheep we would be another 200 dollars poorer.

I can't understand how people can say that you can only break even or cant make money. Is my math different?

PS forgot to deduct for the fuel 1230- 100= 1130...still a pretty good profit for such a small few livestock.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

So does that pay for the cost of the tractor, your vehicle to haul them, the trailer, your insurances, property taxes, property payment, vehicle payment... etc. too?

I think you don't count a Lot of things you use to keep your six little lambs. 

Btw... 6 head x $60 per head for butchering alone cost you $540.00.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> No, pigs cannot survive on pasture in most places, thats why I dont see anyone making a profit with pigs accept the big outfits.


There is a big difference between commodity sales and direct sales. You'll never keep up with the big boys at the sale barn, but if you can tap into a market for local, humane, or pasture raised products, and sell directly without a middle man, you can collect higher returns for your higher per head costs.

I'm just getting my toes wet on direct sales. We shall see how I do. My place is too small to keep up on the commodity market, and the only other ways to make good money on small acres takes a lot of labor.


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

farmerj said:


> the operation where you minimize your actual cost of goods sold. Both fixed and variable overheads.


Exactly. It's absolutely possible to make money on livestock if you minimize inputs and have a product and market that maximizes selling price. The mass market is only for the big players. No money there. Niche markets willing to pay more for your product are where small producers need to focus. I make quite a nice profit on pigs. It took effort and a couple years to build a customer list, but I sell about 50-60 hogs per year, and that number is growing. Added meat chickens, that business is growing. Both very profitable. I raise a superior product humanely and people pay more for it. 

There's a growing surge of people that will pay more for a humanely grown product that lived better, ate better, died better, and tastes better than what you get in the store. I've found it's not a huge market, but it's there and it's growing. AND, it's a very loyal market if you deliver a consistently good product. I get thank you cards from buyers. Nobody sends thank you cards to Walmart.

I minimize inputs by keeping very low overhead, everything lives outside on pasture. I raise more pigs in the fall when I can get a lot of cheap or free harvest extras. I also get free waste milk. I swear I could run a profitable family farm on what our neighboring CAFO dairy throws away, which to them is an acceptable level of scrap.

Exactly what animal to raise depends on your location, market, available by-products, etc. It's doable, just not every animal or product will work in every market or situation.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

HerseyMI said:


> So does that pay for the cost of the tractor, your vehicle to haul them, the trailer, your insurances, property taxes, property payment, vehicle payment... etc. too?
> 
> I think you don't count a Lot of things you use to keep your six little lambs.


WAAAIT a second!!! It doesn't pay for my night at the bar and taking my wife to the movies either, but what does that have to do with PROFIT?

I think you are counting things that have little or nothing to do with my sheep operation...property tax? You have to pay property tax no matter what you do. Even city people pay property tax on their condos...in fact they pay alot more, and get nothing back.

Vehicle payment? Common, do you count the clothes I wore when I drove them to market!! LOL.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

Duh... you USE it, then you have to count it. Without it you wouldn't have done jack. You gonna take your wife out to dinner on your tractor too? Lol!


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

HerseyMI said:


> Duh... you USE it, then you have to count it. Without it you wouldn't have done jack. You gonna take your wife out to dinner on your tractor too? Lol!


Wow, you are really confused. No wonder you can't make a profit! 

Sure I have a tractor, I don't take my wife to dinner in it but it does about 30 different jobs. Its utility in my little sheep operation is minimal. If you really wanted to deduct the cost of that tractor from my sheep endeavor, you'd have to divide the value of the use of that tractor among every other job its used for. Then you'd have to estimate the depreciation of that tractor and assign some portion of it to its use in cutting hay for the sheep. How much depreciation is caused by my cutting 200 bales per year? Not too much.

If you count the total cost of the tractor against the sheep, does that mean the other jobs that I use it for are cost free? Of course not. 

And of course, the tractor ( like most equipment ) once bought doesn't become a worthless expense. I bought my tractor slightly used, it wasn't free. The previous owner used it for multiple jobs ( maybe even cut hay for his sheep ) then resold it to me and got his investment back minus it's depreciation.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Very common for folks to overlook the costs of their inputs. I've seen folks with 100 hens, 10 chicken tractors, store bought feed, tell me that they make money on $2.00 a dozen eggs. In addition to the above capital expenditures, the chicks, brooder, starter feed, and months of expenses prior to them starting to lay.
Easy to forget what it took to get you to the place where the money starts coming the other way. It is wrong, but it is easy.
I've seen big farmers do the same. When corn crops are good, machinery is costly, land and land rent is high. To get those good crops requires the best seed, well timed fertilizer application, the best combine to save every bit of the crop, on and on. A farmer may take in a million dollars at crop harvest, but after expenses he may qualify for food stamps.I know a gal that saw a farmer's checkbook in February and thought he was rich. She married him, only to discover that nearly every cent of that bank roll went back into the farm at planting season. Gold diggers beware.
An old farmer explained it simply, 
"It isn't how much you take in, it's how much you keep that counts."


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Twobottom said:


> WAAAIT a second!!! It doesn't pay for my night at the bar and taking my wife to the movies either, but what does that have to do with PROFIT?
> 
> I think you are counting things that have little or nothing to do with my sheep operation...property tax? You have to pay property tax no matter what you do. Even city people pay property tax on their condos...in fact they pay alot more, and get nothing back.
> 
> Vehicle payment? Common, do you count the clothes I wore when I drove them to market!! LOL.


It's called fixed overhead. All those costs have to be included in the cost of raising livestock. Even if you can only prorate it for the portion of the land used for the operation. Even a date with your wife. Especially if you discuss marketing and production strategy. 

The difference between a hobby and a business is are you TRYING to earn a profit.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

farmerj said:


> It's called fixed overhead. All those costs have to be included in the cost of raising livestock. Even if you can only prorate it for the portion of the land used for the operation. Even a date with your wife. Especially if you discuss marketing and production strategy.
> 
> The difference between a hobby and a business is are you TRYING to earn a profit.


Yes but a profit is the difference between the cost OF THAT BUSINESS, and the income OF THAT BUSINESS. A date with your wife is not a business cost. Neither is cable television. Those are your living costs.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Twobottom said:


> Wow, you are really confused. No wonder you can't make a profit!
> 
> Sure I have a tractor, I don't take my wife to dinner in it but it does about 30 different jobs. Its utility in my little sheep operation is minimal. If you really wanted to deduct the cost of that tractor from my sheep endeavor, you'd have to divide the value of the use of that tractor among every other job its used for. Then you'd have to estimate the depreciation of that tractor and assign some portion of it to its use in cutting hay for the sheep. How much depreciation is caused by my cutting 200 bales per year? Not too much.
> 
> ...



You are 100% correct. Alot of people don't understand how to calculate actual profit. Farmers are infamous for this they count their homes as a business expense and then can't understand why they can't make money!

Nobody lives for free.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

A legitimate business cost is a cost that would not be incurred otherwise. 


I wear shoes. I need them no matter what I do to protect my feet from the elements. If I'm wearing them while pushing sheep they don't become a business cost. They are not a cost specifically incurred by my sheep operation.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Yes, they do become a business cost. They are work clothes.

I buy a heavy winter coat, it's a business cost. Jut like hat and gloves. I justify it because I have to wear them on a dock because I run a reefer. No difference for you and boots.

It's having a business mentality


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I think fish are pretty good at feed conversion. I just can't keep'em fenced in. Come to think of it, I've had to put my cows back a time or two.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Hands down, the most profitable livestock is chickens. Tyson has made millions.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Well I am an extremely new cattle rancher. LOL we now have 7 head. I like the fact that even when the grass is scarce we can put out a round bale have a good water source and almost forget the cattle are there. It seems most other livestock need much more care. I hope we start breaking even on our cost within the next year.
And I love grass fed beef!


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

A wise man once said, "A farmer is the only business man in America that buys at retail, sells at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."!!!!!!!

So................this is my answer to the OP's question. There AINT no money in farmin'........imho. It's a way of life that you live to love. It's a glorified hobby for me that has treated me well for my whole life.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

If I wanted to make a lot of money I'd be more ambitious about promotions at my desk job, but that doesn't mean it is not worth looking at the relative benefits of various enterprises in my second job. Now around here dairy is profitable, but I don't want that lifestyle so I don't do it. Pick your lifestyle, then see which enterprises fit within that.


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

I have cattle, goats, pigs, and horses. Make a little money now and then on horses - note I say NOW AND THEN! ;-) Goats - I had a pretty good sized herd of boer x, they cleared my brush but died on a regular basis. Worms the big problem here where I live and hard to keep them going. Now I have a few Nigerians for 'fun', sell the kids as bottle babies and they pay their own way. Cattle - high start up costs, equipment is high, long time til any return. I love mine, they do okay for me but what consistently pays the feed bill for EVERYTHING else are the pigs! Registered stock makes good money but can't sell them all that way so we sell 'heritage' pork by the cut or by the carcass or on the hoof. People pay well for a good product and it is that. It works for me so I can say, they are the most profitable for me. Everyone has to figure their own expenses, what they want, how much work they want to put into something.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

So Twobottom, how much do you PAY in taxes since you profited over a grand on six sheep. Wow, just think how much you can profit with 100 sheep! Twobottom.... you are hilarious!


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

farmerj said:


> Yes, they do become a business cost. They are work clothes.
> 
> I buy a heavy winter coat, it's a business cost. Jut like hat and gloves. I justify it because I have to wear them on a dock because I run a reefer. No difference for you and boots.
> 
> It's having a business mentality


I don't doubt that you can pass those off as "business expenses" on your tax return. The IRS may overlook things or give people the benefit of the doubt, its not a perfect system. Many family dinners get passed off as business expenses. But for your own tally, you have to at least understand how much an enterprise is actually costing you in and of itself.

If you needed the coat, the shoes, and a house to live regardless of whether you farm livestock, then farming livestock is not COSTING you the shoes, the coat, or the house. You came to that business already carrying those costs.

When I calculate a profit, I consider what THAT ENDEAVOR is costing me, 'over and above' what costs I already carried.

If you have a cocaine habit, and do cocaine while tending your sheep, the cocaine is not a business cost. You're going to do the cocaine whether you happen to be tending sheep or not.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

HerseyMI said:


> So Twobottom, how much do you PAY in taxes since you profited over a grand on six sheep. Wow, just think how much you can profit with 100 sheep! Twobottom.... you are hilarious!


Hey Hersey, I recommend a course at your local college, its called business 101. A solid economics course might set you right too. Sorry your struggling, good luck!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

You might evaluate your time in the equation, and that covers normal living expenses for the time you spend on your enterprise.

If you buy a coat that is a living expense. If you buy a special coat that has features you would not need if you are not in business, that is a business expense. If your business causes excessive wear and tear on your coats then that is also a business expense.

I'm struggling with evaluating how much of my tractor expense is livestock related. I use it now and then to clear overgrown pasture and refresh the grass, but more often I mow my lawn or snow blow the driveway with it. I'm planning to deduct something like 20% of tractor expenses this year.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> Hey Hersey, I recommend a course at your local college, its called business 101. A solid economics course might set you right too. Sorry your struggling, good luck!


LOL! You are too funny! :rotfl: So... what did you pay for each lamb? :stirpot:


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## PackerBacker (Jul 17, 2013)

The beauty of cattle right now is they are not making more, at least it's a very slow process.

Cattle prices will not be going down from the supply side. It's going to take some false flag event to ruin the demand to harm the market at this point.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

HerseyMI said:


> LOL! You are too funny! :rotfl: So... what did you pay for each lamb? :stirpot:


Nothing I bred them. 

Hey you know what? I'll bet with all I'm teaching you about your business, you can now write your computer off as a business expense!! LOL! Hey but then according to your logic you'll make even less money and have to go out of business:nanner:

:happy2: ......:hobbyhors


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion. Hubby and I have actually decided that in 2014 we are calculating cost/profit/loss for our livestock individually. My stance is that my dairy goats are more profitable to the farm and he says his cows are. So, our fun family contest will be to prove who's right.  I don't think he realizes that all of the bottle calves I raise on goat's milk will fall under the GOAT column for profit.....


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

hiddensprings said:


> This is an interesting discussion. Hubby and I have actually decided that in 2014 we are calculating cost/profit/loss for our livestock individually. My stance is that my dairy goats are more profitable to the farm and he says his cows are. So, our fun family contest will be to prove who's right.  I don't think he realizes that all of the bottle calves I raise on goat's milk will fall under the GOAT column for profit.....


That will be tricky to negotiate. He's either going to need to "sell" calves to the goat business, or "buy" milk from the goat business to account it properly. Either way the two of you need to settle on prices between yourselves.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

First ya gotta have one if ya wanna play THAT GAME, Admiral. :walk:

Its about profit & loss, and how it is calculated. Twobottom is jerking everyone's chain and I think its funny. :banana: Go ahead try explaining his theory to the taxman. I suppose he doesn't have to report that $1200 or so profit either since its just a hobby eh?  :lol:


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

IRS publication 225 is a good place to start too.
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Publication-225,-Farmer's-Tax-Guide


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

---- you're good, Farmerj! Thank you sincerely because I can use that!!


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Think as a business, not as a farm or hobby

It's a Food and Agriculture Resource Management operation specializing in the production of protein based food items.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

The tax system is so convoluted its crazy. For a small business which most if not all of us are the tax right offs/ business expense is a huge gray area.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

since it's been brought up specifically....

What the IRS says about office, clothing and vehicle usage for deductions....

And there is a LOT more there for this information as well. For every rule there's an exception and for every exception there's a rule.

Convoluted I think is a nice term to use.



> Business Use of Your Home
> 
> You can deduct expenses for the business use of your home if you use part of your home exclusively and regularly:
> 
> ...


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

Twobottom said:


> Nothing I bred them.


This is an incorrect statement - the purchase price plus cost of the upkeep of the breeding stock (which includes your time) minus the sale price of the breeding stock amortized over all of the offspring is your cost per kid. It is difficult to figure but I assure you it IS a cost.

The saying nothing in life is free - this includes the breeding and birthing of livestock.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

SCRancher said:


> This is an incorrect statement - the purchase price plus cost of the upkeep of the breeding stock (which includes your time) minus the sale price of the breeding stock amortized over all of the offspring is your cost per kid. It is difficult to figure but I assure you it IS a cost.
> 
> The saying nothing in life is free - this includes the breeding and birthing of livestock.


I'd be more interested in counting the opportunity costs. If you did not breed sheep, how much would you be earning from selling hay? If you keep replacement ewes the cost of needing stock becomes negligible over time, it is the annual upkeep that is the true cost. So vaccinations, worm meds, vet calls, and hay for the mothers is the annual cost of lambs. The hay is not free because you produce it, it has value you can't tap if you feed it out. Even if you graze it off and don't have hay you are feeding out, you have an opportunity cost of leasing out the land. Around here, that is $30/acre, on which I could keep 2-3 ewes, producing 2-6 lambs, at $5-15 each, not bad, we could almost call that free. 

My time is worth quite a bit at my day job, but let's say I just want to make a living wage at farming. According to livingwage.mit.edu, that would be $18.19 per hour for a typical two child, two working parent household in my county. Fifteen minutes a day is 91.25 hours a year, that is $1659.84 in wages a year. That is no longer sounding free.

I'm not interested in farming for the money.

You can certainly make some money at farming, but making enough to replace a city job is tough.

If you enjoy raising your own lamb, then adding stock is certainly a good investment. Most of the costs (daily labor) do not scale directly with flock size. The increased land usage is pretty cheap per head.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Correction, the living wage I quoted was for one parent working and one providing child care. The figure is lower than single parent numbers because of the savings in child care expenses. Two parents working but one working at home would probably be lower.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Hmmm well I only have 2 acres right now and the 80 acres I will be moving to does not have the greatest grass. I was looking at Craig's list earlier and saw an ad for a fodder growing machine and was wondering if any if you had experience with that? www.foddersolution s.net
It looks expensive but I wonder if I could make back the costs in profit from not having to buy feed or invest in heavy machinery etc to grow my own. Any one know how it works or seen one?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Any hydroponics solution requires a lot of energy input, or it is just a sprouter that requires you to buy a lot of seed.

Is there any local source of organic waste you can use to enrich our mulch your poor soil?


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Not that I know of but I'll try asking around. The 2 acres I'm on now has great soil and grass...But it's 2 acres! The 80 acres I will be going to is rocky and in the desert... But there is water rights with a spring.


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## homstdr74 (Jul 4, 2011)

summerfarm said:


> Not that I know of but I'll try asking around. The 2 acres I'm on now has great soil and grass...But it's 2 acres! The 80 acres I will be going to is rocky and in the desert... But there is water rights with a spring.


Desert? That changes everything. Unless you raise an animal that you will only buy feed for, such as rabbits or chickens, the lowly goat would be your best bet, but most likely only for yourself, not for sale, because you need pasture for your animals to be able to realize any profit.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Yes that is why I am interested in fodder systems. Oh well! Thank you everyone for the information.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Depending on the desert, rotational grazing of what is there may be beneficial. Look up the TED talk on reversing desertification.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

dlskidmore said:


> That will be tricky to negotiate. He's either going to need to "sell" calves to the goat business, or "buy" milk from the goat business to account it properly. Either way the two of you need to settle on prices between yourselves.


 I buy my bottle calves from the dairy down the road :thumb: Hubby has beef cattle. Now, if he happens to have a calf who's mother doesn't want it, then he can either sell me the calf OR he can buy milk from me. LOL


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## ATPFARM (Dec 31, 2012)

hiddensprings said:


> I buy my bottle calves from the dairy down the road :thumb: Hubby has beef cattle. Now, if he happens to have a calf who's mother doesn't want it, then he can either sell me the calf OR he can buy milk from me. LOL


Now if the wife and the husband could just work out some sort of "business arrangement" to settle some of these costs... maybe some bartering behind closed doors...:cowboy:

maybe even a "management retreat"...at a resort to hash out these and OTHER details...


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Hands down, the most profitable livestock is chickens. Tyson has made millions.


I'm surprised nobody else has said chickens. Meat birds do really well for me. My startup costs consisted of 2 lengths of electronet and about $200 worth of materials to make some shelters. The chicks are in a corner of the barn for 4 weeks, then out on grass in the electronet for 6 weeks. I make about $6 per bird in GROSS MARGIN after feed, chick purchase, and processing. Low overhead, low start-up costs. And they make a great filler product that boosts income with very little time involved. The chickens have brought in new pork buyers; the pork buyers have become chicken customers. It's a nice complementary product.

Also, look at the competition. They're an easy sell.


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## kycn (Nov 27, 2012)

There are a lot of good resources out there about small farming profitably. Joel Salatin is very popular these days and has great resources.

Just as in any small business it comes down to intangibles and other skills and what you want to do. Many people can raise chickens (for example), but how many do it profitably? There is marketing, networking, advertising, etc. I sell eggs for $3.50/doz here in central KY, I am trying to develop this into "a real business". I have a friend who charges $2, because it is just a "hobby".

So there are a lot of technical things, but also your motivation and mindset. How do you view food? What do you buy? You can't compete with the grocery store.

That's just me.


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## StockDogLovr (Apr 13, 2009)

If you are lucky enough to live near them, larger cities with farmer's markets seem to be the way to go. Natural, pastured, free-range whatever! There's a market out there for people who want healthier food options and aren't able to grow their own. When I was living in the Bay Area, I bought beef shares from a local family that raised grass-fed beef, pastured pork, raw milk shares, etc. and they priced at a premium - $7/lb processed the last time we got beef over a year ago! People who value knowing where their food comes from and that it is raised naturally and humanely will pay a higher price.

Also, I'm a raw feeder and in the commercial raw market rabbit is $7.50/lb at least! Rabbit goes over well with the cat people. If you have extras left over and are within an hour of a city, I bet those folks will come all the way to you to buy your stuff for their pets! I've been known to do such crazy things!

I recently bought butchered rabbits from a lady nearby for $12 each, and some were 5 lb. I'm in the CA Central Valley now, so from where I came that was a great deal! I don't know how she came out other than those bunnies were only a few months old or so. She has to sell as pet food, not for human consumption, because of the local regulations.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

I talked to my husbands friend yesterday who is a ranch hand and said the acreage we will be moving to can handle about 7 to 10 cattle. He said we could also lease nearby BLM land to have even more. Anyone know anything about leasing land for cattle?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Desert land with irrigation available?! You have so much better control over your environment I would be looking for profitable crops instead of livestock.


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## summerfarm (Nov 6, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Desert land with irrigation available?! You have so much better control over your environment I would be looking for profitable crops instead of livestock.



Yeah... But the cost of equipment to do that intimidates me. Sooo much money!!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

summerfarm said:


> Yeah... But the cost of equipment to do that intimidates me. Sooo much money!!


Fencing is not cheap either, but if you follow rotational grazing practices I think livestock will help the land more than crops.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

summerfarm said:


> Yeah... But the cost of equipment to do that intimidates me. Sooo much money!!


My grampa homesteaded 120 acres in the middle of the great depression, as in cleared the sage brush and chasing the rattlesnakes out. He then proceeded to level it up so he could gravity feed irrigate it. To clear the land he used teams of mules dragging a curved railroad rail behind piling the brush to be burned. He pulled land leveling equipment made of wood, with just enough irons to hold things together and scrape the dirt up drag it from the high spots and dump in low places. They moved onto the brush covered farm in 1934... in 36 it was all leveled up, under irrigation, and being "farmed". Grampa got hold of some sheepmen who needed a place to hold their sheep over the winter. He got them to fence the place and turned out sheep all winter on it. The sheep herders hauled in tons and tons of hay that winter... and grampa let them convert it into potent fertilizer and spread it all over the farm. Come spring he sewed grass and clover seed, letting those sheep "plant" it with their little hooves just before it was time to run the sheep out on open blm pasture. Grampa cut and sold the hay using again teams of horses and the old timey horse drawn mowers, raked it with dump rake and hauled it with wagons..... all borrowed from neighbors! (the teams were his) Once he had the farm producing well, he either share cropped or rented the land to neighbors who had all that expensive equipment. Grampa of course ramrodded the operation, insuring that his tenants did things his way. He had a highly productive farm that provided granny and himself with a comfortable living until the day he died.... Other than those old leveling tools, and that railroad rail.... he never bought or owned any other equipment.


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## Annoth (Oct 21, 2013)

It depends on your area for which market is most popular (therefor the biggest money maker) but if it's personal use I think cattle and sheep have many uses. Cattle can provide loads of food and drink, labor, transportation, and leather. Lambs also provide healthier meat and some drink for less feed, and can be skinned / sheared repeatedly to provide warm clothing. There's a saying "sheep can go where cattle cannot"


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## Rollochrome (Apr 9, 2012)

Show quality rabbits.

Sell Californians online for $25 with a pedigree and preppers, breeders, and FFA/4H people will wear out your phone.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> Depending on the desert, rotational grazing of what is there may be beneficial. Look up the TED talk on reversing desertification.


Link for the talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savo...rld_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html


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