# Real inexpensive land possibilities



## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

I was closing on a few properties the other day and had a conversation with the seller about how bad the market has gotten here in Northeastern PA. The seller is one of several who I have done business with that bought dozens, to hundreds, of lots in private communities throughout the Pocono mountain region, and did so at just the wrong time. Our area is loaded with hundreds of private recreation communities. They vary from very luxurious and expensive (think $400K lakefront lots) to the other extreme of dirt roads, very small lots and extremely mismanaged homeowner's associations. The market has softened to the point that folks from individual owners to large corporate speculators are letting their holdings go to sheriff's auction instead of paying dues and taxes on lots. The bottom line is that it's possible to end up with a half acre or so, in a decent community for a few hundred, or a few thousand dollars. Many of these lots have been repeatedly perked and surveyed, with all the documentation available at the local township offices. I'm not selling anything, I'm not going to be doing anybody's research on this, and I'm not offering advice here. I just found it interesting that it's possible to be less than a two hour drive from NYC or Philadelphia and find a buildable piece of property for nearly nothing. Keep in mind that taxes are not cheap, I build modest places on small lots and the taxes tend to run in the 2500-3000 range. But the schools are rated well and there are several large cities within an hour of here.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Good suggestion TC. I used to be in a developer and construction family (they still do, but I stepped out) in the Philly Burbs...lands went insane.
We moved up here (NEPA) because of the schools (equivalent to Central Bucks) and the area. As for the taxes, I'd have to say it is relative...our taxes here are significantly (read about 1/4) lower than Bucks.
There are bargains to be found, as long as you research...
As a jumping in point, I really like this search site... http://www.flexmls.com/cgi-bin/main...http://www.pare.org/index.html&bgcolor=6B9C21 ...but I know the areas I'm searching.
AS TC said, research.
Matt


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

On the other hand, some areas are way more expensive than just 3-5 years ago due to the tremendous amount of natural gas leasing/drilling. People are holding onto their land here (Susquehanna County) so that they can profit if/when there is a well drilled on/near their properties. What is selling may or may not have mineral rights go with the property but those that do let those rights go to the buyer are certainly charging for it. But mostly, people are holding onto their lots/acreage or selling them at high prices relatiive to a few years ago.
I can't get to NY in two hours...do you fly?


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

anniew said:


> On the other hand, some areas are way more expensive than just 3-5 years ago due to the tremendous amount of natural gas leasing/drilling. People are holding onto their land here (Susquehanna County) so that they can profit if/when there is a well drilled on/near their properties. What is selling may or may not have mineral rights go with the property but those that do let those rights go to the buyer are certainly charging for it. But mostly, people are holding onto their lots/acreage or selling them at high prices relatiive to a few years ago.
> I can't get to NY in two hours...do you fly?


Most of the southern and eastern areas of the Poconos are not part of the viable shale drilling area, and even if they are it looks like the DRBC is going to make it very difficult to get permits. North of here, the drillers are pulling out of Laccawanna county, after a few disappointing test bores. We had originally planned on buying land in Tioga county, Pa. to retire to, but it's quite clear that it's becoming a wasteland with massive truck traffic, pipelines and drilling pads everywhere, and a future of groundwater pollution and economic decline. As for getting to NYC, not real difficult to jump on rt 80 east. 94 miles door to door, the commuter buses schedule it at 2:15 from here, I only go on weekends and it's a lot less than that in light traffic. Philly is closer at 85 miles.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

Since your "name" is tioga county, I assumed you were speading of that area...and I saw nothing to indicate otherwise. Sorry. Maybe you should say where you were closing on properties...


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

anniew said:


> Since your "name" is tioga county, I assumed you were speading of that area...and I saw nothing to indicate otherwise. Sorry. Maybe you should say where you were closing on properties...


 No, I just needed a screen name, have family that goes back to the 1800s in the northern tier, and hoped to move there one day. As for where I live and do business, the first post clearly says the Pocono Mountains of Northeast Pa.


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## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

Wow just found this post-very interesting prospect. You mentioned that the lots vary quite a bit-would something like 30-40 acres be doable or are they all a great deal smaller?


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## Rusty'sDog (Oct 14, 2010)

This entire thread seems like SPAM to me...are you certain that you are not all working for the same scammer?


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## n9viw (Jan 30, 2005)

Rusty,
It seems unlikely, as EVERY SINGLE ONE has more posts under his/her belt than you or I!

I, personally, appreciate the info, as it gives us another direction in which to look for our own interest. I don't think the OP should be taken as a spammer, as he's not attempting to sell anything nor to get anyone else to do anything. Just providing info is not spam.


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## Nomad (Dec 19, 2002)

I saw a couple of places I wouldn't mind having. I'll have to check back next summer when I get ready to buy.

Nomad


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## jjgrappler (Jul 26, 2010)

Just an FYI for people looking in PA at buying land to build a home starting in 2011 they are mandating every home to have a sprinkler system installed. I also was told if you build an addition to an existing home that would fall under that stipulation as well. Just a thought for you guys to consider if that's a big deal to you guys or not.


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## jjgrappler (Jul 26, 2010)

Interesting article on which states mandate sprinklers in newly built homes.


http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/sprinkler1221.pdf


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

Rusty'sDog said:


> This entire thread seems like SPAM to me...are you certain that you are not all working for the same scammer?


Either you are clueless in general, or really lack understanding of this thread, typical folks on this forum, or what exactly "spam" is. As a builder. I offered VERY generic information about a wide region. NO links, names, or recommendations at all. I'm not looking for work, and haven't found the need to do so in the last twenty years. I'm specifically NOT going to steer anyone toward a realtor or developer, as I find most are either clueless or dishonest. So....where is the spam, and are you calling ME the scammer?


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

jjgrappler said:


> Just an FYI for people looking in PA at buying land to build a home starting in 2011 they are mandating every home to have a sprinkler system installed. I also was told if you build an addition to an existing home that would fall under that stipulation as well. Just a thought for you guys to consider if that's a big deal to you guys or not.


Sprinklers are still an unresolved issue in PA. There is a good chance that they will be delayed again once the reps. are in session later this month. I was told that additions are not included, as the code is specifically new construction of "one and two family dwellings". Remember, that there are interested parties lobbying, bribing and misinforming, with a great deal of cash and force, to try to make sprinklers mandatory in all new construction in the USA, and they are succeeding. We live in a corrupt country where money talks. There are no logical reasons for adding thousands to the cost of a new home. Occupants are no safer than in a home with smoke alarms. It is driven by an industry that will make billions, once they succeed.


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

cbcansurvive said:


> Wow just found this post-very interesting prospect. You mentioned that the lots vary quite a bit-would something like 30-40 acres be doable or are they all a great deal smaller?


 JMHO, but I wouldn't touch a large tract of land in an area as densely populated as the Northeast. There are various ways to enter large properties into tax deals that greatly reduce the real estate tax burden, but who knows if they will remain a viable option. Many have sold development rights to their land in exchange for greatly reduced taxes, but ended up with one choice. Farm the property, or sell to somebody who will. Taxes on larger parcels here are still reasonable, but I have heard too many stories of folks from 50 miles away in NJ who thought the same thing 10-15 years ago. I know a couple that retired here. In the 70s they built a modest place in western jersey on a rural, ten acre chunk of land. By the time they left in the early 2000s, the school taxes were over $24,000 a year. In the thirty years they lived there, the place was surrounded by high end development, and the local government was pretty clear that they wanted 20 homes paying 8-10K per year on the property, and driving these folks out of there home was nothing that anybody was going to loose sleep over. I can't see pouring your heart and soul into building a homestead, only to watch the taxes go up 10% a year, until you give up.


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## goober (Nov 20, 2009)

tiogacounty said:


> JMHO, but I wouldn't touch a large tract of land in an area as densely populated as the Northeast. There are various ways to enter large properties into tax deals that greatly reduce the real estate tax burden, but who knows if they will remain a viable option. Many have sold development rights to their land in exchange for greatly reduced taxes, but ended up with one choice. Farm the property, or sell to somebody who will. Taxes on larger parcels here are still reasonable, but I have heard too many stories of folks from 50 miles away in NJ who thought the same thing 10-15 years ago. I know a couple that retired here. In the 70s they built a modest place in western jersey on a rural, ten acre chunk of land. By the time they left in the early 2000s, the school taxes were over $24,000 a year. In the thirty years they lived there, the place was surrounded by high end development, and the local government was pretty clear that they wanted 20 homes paying 8-10K per year on the property, and driving these folks out of there home was nothing that anybody was going to loose sleep over. I can't see pouring your heart and soul into building a homestead, only to watch the taxes go up 10% a year, until you give up.


thanks for good info...


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

I remember maybe 10 years ago you could pick up lots in towmensing trails and indian mountain lakes for 500 bucks at the tax sales. Its odd to see it circle back that way again.


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## MyFullHouse (Jan 30, 2011)

I can't help but giggle. I came to this site to spend some time working on my plans for my "someday" homestead, only to see it suggested that people can buy cheap land where I already am.

Don't do it.
The vast majority of developments disallow nearly everything "homestead". Even simple gardening has to be handled carefully because of most fencing rules and our gross overpopulation of deer. Alternative energy is even tightly restricted in many communities. And you can forget any type of animal beyond the standard cat/dog.
Also, 1/2 acre sounded huge when I lived across the boarder. The truth is, after you factor in mandated buffer zones, restrictions on tree cutting, and NEPA's famous "turkey mound" septic fields, in addition to a home's footprint, the leftover land is often much less than you might find on an average NJ suburban lot. AND it's all rock. All of my soil for my tiny, tiny lawn and small garden was trucked in.

Do some Googling on our schools, too. I pulled my kids out and now they're homeschooled.

We really, really want our own little homestead, but I wouldn't even have take a free lot around here if I had known the real scoop.


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

MyFullHouse said:


> I can't help but giggle. I came to this site to spend some time working on my plans for my "someday" homestead, only to see it suggested that people can buy cheap land where I already am.
> 
> Don't do it.
> The vast majority of developments disallow nearly everything "homestead". Even simple gardening has to be handled carefully because of most fencing rules and our gross overpopulation of deer. Alternative energy is even tightly restricted in many communities. And you can forget any type of animal beyond the standard cat/dog.
> ...


I guess one person's wine is another's poison. It's all relative. I can grow a massive garden with zero deer issues, and no rock bigger than a hamburger bun. I can find cheap land, within a ten minute drive, where the taxes are 1/2 what I pay, and 20% of the cost of living in a similar house 25 miles away in NJ. You make a lot of valid points, but it's all relative. I build retirement and vacation homes for folks that have spent their lives jammed into places like Philly and the Bronx. As you might imagine, they are in heaven. If you are looking for a remote, bureaucrat free, rural experience, nothing in the northeastern states is going to fill your need. As for elevated sand mounds being either famous or exclusive to NEPA...... well you might need to travel a little more. They are extremely common, a requirement in 95% or more of all new rural installations in the entire state, and hardly unusual in other locations with similar geological conditions. They are their for two reasons, first they work, secondly they protect ground water far better than a lot of systems that were previously used. With a little bit of effort and cost, there are alternatives available that eliminate the mound.


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## MyFullHouse (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm not trying to vilify septic mounds from a technical standpoint. My own has proven wonderfully effective. I'm just trying to point out how much of a .5 acre lot can be eaten up by them. If you're a local builder, I'm sure you're WELL aware that many of the homes here wind up with their entire front or back yard being dedicated to the septic system. That is not something your average suburbanite currently on a sewer system is going to think about right off the bat.

Also, as a local builder, surely you're familiar with the codes and bylaws of the developments you work in. It's one thing to say that many transplants are happy here. It's quite another to imply, by posting on a homesteading forum, that this would be a good homesteading area. There are very few CA's that support country living, as ironic as that may be!


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I have family in the pocono region and one house has $6,000 in taxes on it and th eother is about $10,000. And it keeps going up with the huge influx of people to the region they had to build all new schools and the tax burden is awful. We had thought about moving there and just could not afford the taxes!


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

MyFullHouse said:


> I'm not trying to vilify septic mounds from a technical standpoint. My own has proven wonderfully effective. I'm just trying to point out how much of a .5 acre lot can be eaten up by them. If you're a local builder, I'm sure you're WELL aware that many of the homes here wind up with their entire front or back yard being dedicated to the septic system. That is not something your average suburbanite currently on a sewer system is going to think about right off the bat.
> 
> Also, as a local builder, surely you're familiar with the codes and bylaws of the developments you work in. It's one thing to say that many transplants are happy here. It's quite another to imply, by posting on a homesteading forum, that this would be a good homesteading area. There are very few CA's that support country living, as ironic as that may be!


 I guess you would be taking an assumption and turning it into a fact? The fact being that I started this thread to encourage the next Helen and Scott Nearing to buy a 1/4 acre in "Pine Tree Village" and create a viable homestead on the little patch between the turkey mound and the house?:shrug: I left a settlement one day, and wrote a short piece reflecting on the surprising fact that conditions are so bad that I now do business with investors that are, in essence, giving small tracts of property away. Sorry for bothering you with this info. With some exceptions, it has been an interesting thread. I didn't attempt to sell anything, and I'm well aware that this unique set of circumstances creates a possible opportunity for a very small audience. It may be time to un-knot those shorts and loosen up a bit?


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

HOTW said:


> I have family in the pocono region and one house has $6,000 in taxes on it and th eother is about $10,000. And it keeps going up with the huge influx of people to the region they had to build all new schools and the tax burden is awful. We had thought about moving there and just could not afford the taxes!


There are no shortage of examples of ridiculously overtaxed homes in Northeastern Pa. That said, it is extremely localized. I live in Monroe County, and pay twice what I would a few minutes north in Carbon county. The other issue is rational home size. I build mostly smaller homes in the 1300 sq. ft. range. They end up with a total tax bills around $2500 . I live in an area with several 5bed/3bath 3000+ sq. ft. homes that pay well into the $6-7K range. The other interesting part is that the migration is now slowly reversing, and IMHO will probably really pick up steam as the fuel prices climb and no longer fluctuate. Once we see $5 + a gallon for an extended period, the days of the super commuter will be over and this area will be in for a long decline in population.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Tioga, don't let the naysayers get you.

That said... North WEST PA is where the action is!


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> Tioga, don't let the naysayers get you.
> 
> That said... North WEST PA is where the action is!


 Ya Know, I actually really like all of the northern tier, including way out your way. A real close female relative of mine was a guest at Cambridge Springs "Correction Facility" for many years, and we would head on out to visit her sorry butt on a pretty regular basis. Cook's creek is beautiful, and the begging fish at Pymatuning lake are not something I'll ever forget. Oh, and our state morons should be SHOT for neglecting the Kinzua bridge to the point that they let the thing blow over. I guess I would never make the trip permanently for a few reasons, the biggest being that both my wife and son are/will be graduates of some of the state universities that get unholy amounts of lake effect snow. Now, I really think getting my wife to agree to relocate anywhere downwind of any of those puddles simply ain't gonna' happen in this lifetime. I have one kid is school outside of Philly. They close if they count more than two flakes. The boy is at IUP, they don't even comment on anything less than a foot, and close for bad weather every few decades. Tough people, but not me, I'm too soft for that stuff.


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