# Unbelievable offer



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Iâve just received the e-mail from Central Hudson (my electricity supplier) with this Subject: â Water heater perk: $1,100 worth of incentivesâ










It looks like an Unbelievable offer.
And I think this is a very good example how we can spend money wisely.


More details about electric Heat Pump Water Heaters are here:
http://www.beebehavior.com/solar_water_heaters.php


Boris Romanov


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I was just looking at these today they have electric elements for when you need a high volume of water but a very good idea. The drop the ambient temp in your basement by 3 degrees max and dehumidify the area too. You need a condensate drain. Purchase price is around $1400 here.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Lowe's Has them on sale for $999 through the 1st of October, another $300 from Uncle Sam.

Only down side side is- they still require power to run. If you are using a generator and not in too cold of climate, you can get by in the energy saving mode with just compressor running.

For those on just grid power, it's probably not a bad investment.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

The tax credit wouldn't apply to us, bringing the cost up another $300, and the cost of Sears installation - which ya gotta know they sneak in as a requirement somehow - would mean another $300. It is moot for us anyway, since we have a crawlspace. Could be a deal for some people though.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Harry Chickpea said:


> ... and the cost of Sears installation - which ya gotta know they sneak in as a requirement somehow - would mean another $300...


This is not an issue for this deal â please see âHow can I have one installed?â section: âAll qualifying units can be installed by a SavingsCentral Trade Ally or *yourself*.â
From: http://www.savingscentral.com/hotwater/

My main concern is a quality of this product, because Iâve heard that some parts or even whole units are made in China. 
I will try to obtain this information.

Boris Romanov


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Two day ago I visited the Sears store in Kingston, NY with the only one purpose - to buy a GeoSpring water heater. 

The Demo unit was made in China, but GE &#8220;&#8230; provide a 1 year parts and labor warranty on the entire machine, as well as a warranty on parts for the 2nd to the 10th year.&#8221;

Unfortunately, because of high demand, the GeoSpring water heaters were not available at that moment (during my visit) - the waiting list is 27-29 days!

My new idea is to connect a Heat Pump Water Heater. to the baseboards of one of my heating zones with a purpose of using a heat pump water heater as a HEAT PUMP WATER BOILER.
During the heating seasons the ground temperature (temperature of the concrete slab in my basement) is VERY STABLE (about 55-60 degrees Fahrenheit). 
Therefore there is a good opportunity to utilize this ENDLESS UNDERGROUND HEAT/ temperature.
My idea is very close to the classical Closed-Loop/Open-Loop Systems, 
but I will try to utilize underground heat without any loops.

I will explain my idea in details later, because I think the market for inexpensive heat pump boilers is quite large.


Boris Romanov


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Boris,
Will the area of the basement floor be significant enough to provide a source of heat to extract the amount required to meet your heating needs? I do not think so. I have an open loop geothermal heatpump and I have to send roughly 6 gallons of 56 degree water through the heat exchanger to extract adequate heat or cooling for the home. My system has what is referred to as a HWG (hot water generator) What is unique to it is that a large water heater tank (not connected to electricity) is used to store/amass hot water at around 140 degrees F off the heatpump. The cold water in to the powered hot water heater is sent through the unpowered "storage tank". Doing this in what you are considering could have merit and is possibly due consideration.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

agmantoo said:


> Boris,
> Will the area of the basement floor be significant enough to provide a source of heat to extract the amount required to meet your heating needs?..


Agmantoo,

This is a very good question.

But:
1. My basement concrete slab (floor) is about 1,000 sq. feet
2. And as I stated in my previous post: &#8220;My new idea is to connect a Heat Pump Water Heater. to the baseboards of *one *of my heating zones..."

I have to find alternative sources of energy because last year I paid $2.40 per gallon of heating oil, but just recently I paid $3,40 per gallon of heating oil.
Nevertheless, I&#8217;m happy that I need only about 350-360 gallons for the whole heating season.

Boris Romanov


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)




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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

TnAndy,

As you can see here: http://www.beebehavior.com/wood_stove_sauna.php I like wood stove too.

But this thread is not about wood stoves&#8230;

Boris Romanov


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Boris said:


> *I have to find alternative sources of energy* because last year I paid $2.40 per gallon of heating oil, but just recently I paid $3,40 per gallon of heating oil.
> Nevertheless, I&#8217;m happy that I need only about 350-360 gallons for the whole heating season.
> 
> Boris Romanov



All I know is what I read. Is it about the cost of oil ?


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

TnAndy said:


> All I know is what I read. Is it about the cost of oil ?



In my climate an efficiency of almost all flat plate solar collectors is close to zero during cloudy or snowy days.
Therefore my goal is to install an AFFORDABLE heat pump water heater (Not a wood stove!) as a water boiler *to assist in offsetting of heating oil.*

Of cause I will continue to use solar energy too. But this is a different project unrelated to this thread. 

Boris Romanov


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks Boris..I will show my dh this..You must live near me as I also have Central Hudson too..I live in Ancramdale NY. Ever heard of the Winterhawk Bluegrass festival or later named Greyfox? that was on my families property for 30yrs..BTW I paid $3.69 a gallon for our #2 heating fuel..It suck's!


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

mythreesons said:


> ..You must live near me as I also have Central Hudson too..I live in Ancramdale NY...


No,

My property is located in the Catskill Mountains (Sullivan County) just 5 miles away from the Rondout Reservoir.
As I know the Central Hudson covers the large service area that includes parts of eight counties of New York State's Mid-Hudson River Valley.

Boris Romanov


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

You won't save much with a heat pump in the northern climate. The only savings will be garnered during summer months, when the pump is being heated by a house warmed by outside ambient temperatures. In the winter it will have to use the heat from your furnace - so no savings there.

Much better off with a larger flat-plate drain-back solar loop system. And yes, they will work to a degree during cloudy and the cold winter conditions. 3 4x10 top of the line flat plat collectors will heat 120 gallons to 120 degrees on cold sunny days and 80 degrees during winter-time cloudy days. On the rare occasion it is both very cold and cloudy, then 65 degrees is all it will do, so if you want more, then add more collectors! 

How do I know? I have one!


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

In my opinion all your statements are incorrect.

1. In my idea I did not propose to use heat pumps with an OUTSIDE air-source.
Of cause they are not efficient in cold climate during wintertime.
&#8220;&#8230;Although air-source heat pumps can be used in nearly all parts of the United States, they do not generally perform well over extended periods of sub-freezing temperatures. In regions with sub-freezing winter temperatures, it may not be cost effective to meet all your heating needs with a standard air-source heat pump.&#8221; More details are here: http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12620

Please read my Post #6 more carefully: &#8220;My new idea is to connect a Heat Pump Water Heater. to the baseboards of one of my heating zones with a purpose of using a heat pump water heater as a HEAT PUMP WATER BOILER.
During the heating seasons the ground temperature (temperature of the concrete slab in my basement) is VERY STABLE (about 55-60 degrees Fahrenheit). 
Therefore there is a good opportunity to utilize this ENDLESS UNDERGROUND HEAT/ temperature.
My idea is very close to the classical Closed-Loop/Open-Loop Systems, but I will try to utilize underground heat without any loops.&#8221;

2. As you can see here: http://www.beebehavior.com/solar_collector.php in general, I&#8217;m not against the solar collectors. 
Nevertheless, in my Post #12 I stated: &#8220;In my climate an efficiency of almost all flat plate solar collectors is close to zero during cloudy or snowy days.&#8221;
In addition you can see the official SRCC reports: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=2010115A

But more importantly, you have to remember these typical recommendations from the manufacturers of solar collectors:
"- Flat Plate Solar Collectors typically cost less from the outset than Evacuated Tubes. 
However, the lower performance ratings in many climates, and increased maintenance and replacement costs mean that they are generally less cost-effective than Evacuated Tube Collectors.
-We recommend Flat Plate Solar Collectors to our clients who live in southern climates where freezing is unlikely, and where solar angles, and the amount of sunlight does not justify the increased investment of an Evacuated Tube Solar Collector.
-We recommend Evacuated Tube Solar Collectors for our clients anywhere where cold weather, and possible freezing is a significant factor in the weather."


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

You are failing to grasp how heat moves around. You need to study "conduction" on this link:

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/thermal/1-how-does-heat-move.html

The issue is during cold winter months the water heater pump is taking heat from inside the house. This begs the question: Where is this heat coming from?

But better explained is the heat pump is a simple transfer mechanism, in the case of a water heater, the heat pump is transferring the cold of the water into the air surrounding the water heater. 

Now, the house furnace must turn on and heat this air. Sorry, no savings here. Just more electricity needed to run the pump.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

The problem with evacuated tubes is they will overheat in the summer. Also, I have worked on quite a few replacing tubes because they have lost their evacuation (more cheap chineses junk).

Here is a link explaining the various solar heat collectors:

http://www.greenskyenergetics.com/OurProducts/SDWCollectorTypes/tabid/117/Default.aspx


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

&#8220;Depending on latitude, ground temperatures range from 45Â°F (7Â°C) to 75Â°F (21Â°C). Like a cave, this ground temperature is warmer than the air above it during the winter... The GHP takes advantage of this by exchanging heat with the earth through a ground heat exchanger.&#8221;
From: http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12640
The 6-inch concrete slab of my basement is an excellent &#8220;ground heat exchanger&#8221; too. And I will show how it works perfectly during wintertime.

In general, evacuated tube solar collectors can overheat if you don&#8217;t know about SIZING of solar collector and storage tank. 
&#8220;it is a general rule that the volume of your storage tank increases with the area of the collectors. &#8220;
In my opinion these recommendations are very practical:
http://solarhotwater.siliconsolar.com/solar-hot-water-system-sizing.php




sevenmmm said:


> ...
> Much better off with a larger flat-plate drain-back solar loop system. ... so if you want more, then add more collectors!


Based on official SRCC reports I can repeat one more time &#8211; your recommendations are incorrect for my climate. 
Please do not spread misinformation. It&#8217;s better to read professional recommendations from the manufacturers of solar collectors (see my previous post).

I think the further discussion without your real calculation (BTUs, cost and payback period) is completely useless.


Boris Romanov


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Boris, I'm interested in the geothermal heating you plan to do. Are you going to insulate the slab from the heated envelope of the house? How many BTU's do you think you can extract from the slab before the ground freezes?

Michael


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> Please read my Post #6 more carefully: &#8220;My new idea is to connect a Heat Pump Water Heater. to the baseboards of one of my heating zones with a purpose of using a heat pump water heater as a HEAT PUMP WATER BOILER.
> During the heating seasons the ground temperature (temperature of the concrete slab in my basement) is VERY STABLE (about 55-60 degrees Fahrenheit).
> Therefore there is a good opportunity to utilize this ENDLESS UNDERGROUND HEAT/ temperature.
> My idea is very close to the classical Closed-Loop/Open-Loop Systems, but I will try to utilize underground heat without any loops.&#8221;


How can extracting heat from the inside air putting it into a domestic water heater tank then pumping it back into the house through a rad to heat air gain you anything? These water heaters have a limited ability to use excess heat in your basement to turn it into hot water cheaper than electric alone (but it is an electric water heater too when you need more) If you have a family of 3 or more forget it, and using it as a zone heating system will cost you in electrically heated water. 
It's not a geothermal heat pump it is an air to water heat pump with full electric back up. It extracts heat out of the air and puts it into the water, It does drop room temp. doing so, it will NOT stay constant! Then your plan to put it back into the air as room heat is just an energy losing proposition and it won't keep up without using the electric elements. You need to check out its recover rate and then factor in something like a 4gpm flow and a delta T of 20 degrees to see how much the heat pump won't keep up. They're great for single people or couples with warmish damp basements who run a de-humidifier already.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

artificer, 

in order to avoid mixing topics I will post more details in my new thread.
Ross raised the excellent question :


Ross said:


> ... You need to check out its recover rate ...


And I will show you my very simple device (heat recovery meter) to get the answer for his concern.
In short &#8211; I already started to utilize some underground heat thanks to my water preheater:









The design of my water preheater is very simple. A three hundred foot coil was installed into the 55 gallon plastic barrel. 

Please wait for more details in my new thread.

Boris Romanov


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

Boris. You are not wrong to post that evacuated tubes are more efficient. The issue with evacuated tubes is overheating in the summer, lack of snow melting off the tubes in the winter, and durability. 

My business has installed well over one hundred systems and repaired just as many. My experience has me putting the information out there point blank; that the tubes are not for residential applications. Then, they are all coming out of china and are pure junk. My posts are from experience Boris, it is best for people to get this information so they can research and decide for themselves. 

Please read my posts again.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

sevenmmm,

The ball is still in your court &#8211;see post # 19 with your recommendations and my comment to your recommendations.

I can not "buy" your new statement either:



sevenmmm said:


> ...The issue with evacuated tubes is overheating in the summer, lack of snow melting off the tubes in the winter, and durability...My business has installed well over one hundred systems and repaired just as many. My experience has me putting the information out there point blank; that the tubes are not for residential applications. Then, they are all coming out of china and are pure junk. My posts are from experience Boris, it is best for people to get this information so they can research and decide for themselves...


without your real portfolio (web site, links, customers testimonials) as a proof of your experience as a Solar collector installer, especially for the SRCC certified evacuated tub solar collectors from SUNMAXX, Apricus, Thermomax, Thermo Ind.

Boris Romanov


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

You know, I have become bored with people who have no credentials. Ok, here is our website:

http://www.greenskyenergetics.com/

Also it is worthy to note my partner, Andy Williams, is a NABCEP Certified INSTALLER in Wisconsin. During the period of time I was marketing and selling 7 days a week, our business installed more heating units than any other in northern latitudes. 

This information was given to me by various wholesalers.

Solar heating is all we did, including doing a million dollars in business in the 2010 calendar year. Now that I have burnt out attempting to convince people they should act now - while energy costs are cheap and they still have disposable income - I really don't care anymore. 

Don't even know why I started hitting the ball across the net in the first place. I am learning it is far easier to let you people stew in your own ignorance.

One more piece of advice: renewable energy can never replace fossil fuels. Your only hope for a decent lifestyle in the future is to learn how to use less and use it when it is available. Then, and only then, will renewable energy fulfill realistic expectations.

Oh, and you can not beat the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

Here is the NABCEP website. The certification doesn't guarantee high knowledge, but does distinguish installer knowledge.

http://www.nabcep.org/


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

sevenmmm said:


> &#8230; During the period of time I was marketing and selling 7 days a week&#8230;





sevenmmm said:


> ...The certification doesn't guarantee high knowledge, but does distinguish installer knowledge.
> http://www.nabcep.org/


Now I can see the level of your "knowledge" about solar collectors.
Unfortunately, it&#8217;s not a rare situation for some salespersons in the areas, related to the technical issues:
-&#8220;&#8230;SRCC, a non-profit organization whose primary purpose is to provide authoritative performance ratings, certifications and standards for solar thermal products (BUT NOT INSTALLERS!), with the intention of protecting and providing guidance to consumers, incentive providers, government, and the industry.&#8221;
From: http://www.solar-rating.org/

You still did not present your portfolio, related to the Evacuated tube solar collectors, especially with evacuated tube solar collectors from SUNMAXX, Apricus, Thermomax, Thermo Ind. WHICH ARE certified by SRCC.
Therefore I would like to ask you one more time - please STOP to misinform people. 
And please do not waste my time anymore. I cannot accept your recommendations without payback calculations.

Boris Romanov


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

The SRCC is an organization that tests for collector efficiency. It does not test collector durability, nor does it recommend how the product should be applied.

Again, evacuated tubes should not be used in a residential setting because the system will always overheat in the summer (the reason being is these are designed to increased temperatures well above the 160 degrees in the solar tank plus will scorch the fluid). They will always be blocked by snow in northern winter areas. And there is not, in my experience and opinion, a single manufacturer that will send tubes without at least one broke per shipment, nor come even close to the 40 year+ durability of a flat plate collector.

So, what I want to know about you, is, how many have you installed?


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