# WHO "Really" owns your Homestead/Farm/Retreat........& Why



## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

How do you hold title to your *Homestead/Farm/Retreat* property......??? Is it in your name, your children's name, a trust (Revocable or NON-Revocable) LLC, LLP, or any of 25 other methods to hold title.

If the property is "Really" important to you.......how it is titled is critical to you.

Think about it. Why is it titled the way it is, is there a better way, advantages.....??? (Clue: There are many) (Second Clue: just because you own it free and clear.........does NOT mean that it "CAN"T" be foreclosed on).

In the mid 80's through early 90's I lost several properties that I owned free and clear.......no debt.......taxes paid. The total was around $960,000.00 and it was because of how I held title. That was a painful lesson. 

This is a cut and past of a thread that I started on another forum. Sadly they chose to hi-jack it into a rant about property taxes. That is NOT what this is about. There must be 25 to 40 ways to hold title to Real Estate.

Clearly there is no "ONE" perfect way. But you should be clear about how it is held, and why you chose that method, and if that method is still relevant given any changes that have transpired in your life.

Discussion.........??? But, eventually you need professional advise, if you are not 100% comfortable or sure. This is NOT something you want to decide based on internet counsel.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Some reference stuff:

http://arctic.org/~dean/sircam/Title(s) - best way to hold real estate.html

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/mortgages-real-estate/08/title-ownership-property.asp

http://www.ehow.com/how_7633654_title-property-avoid-liability.html


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> In the mid 80's through early 90's I lost several properties that I owned free and clear.......no debt.......taxes paid. The total was around $960,000.00 and it was because of how I held title. That was a painful lesson.


OK....so want to explain how that happened other than simply throwing out "how I held title" ?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

NO.......the "HOW" it happened for me, is not the point that I am aspiring to make. That it would be prudent to review how one holds title is the point.



TnAndy said:


> OK....so want to explain how that happened other than simply throwing out "how I held title" ?


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## Lazerus (Apr 23, 2015)

When I bought my land, using only my own money, no bank loans or anything else, I ended up with "sole and separate property". The seller's attorney is the one that did that, and told me "You'll thank me later" Sole and separate was based on the fact that I owned the home I sold in order to buy this property. When my marriage dissolved, the wife was pretty sure she was going to get something out of the home, and she did, in a way. She got her stuff out of the house. By then, the lawyer who wrote the deed was the judge here. And many times, I have been thankful that the deed was written in that manner.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I held title to my current homestead in a LLC (Limited Liability Company) for about twelve years. When I retired and turned 65 y/o I changed how I hold title so that I avoid having to pay and Real Estate taxes on the property.

There can be many reasons to review how you hold title as your life changes.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> NO.......the "HOW" it happened for me, is not the point that I am aspiring to make. That it would be prudent to review how one holds title is the point.



Hmmm....seems to me that is the ENTIRE point.....that one could somehow lose a paid for property simply by the way it is titled. You posted, So why not tell your story ?


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

Sourdough said:


> I held title to my current homestead in a LLC (Limited Liability Company) for about twelve years. When I retired and turned 65 y/o I changed how I hold title so that I avoid having to pay and Real Estate taxes on the property.
> 
> There can be many reasons to review how you hold title as your life changes.


I fail to see how changing title changes property taxes... unless you title it to someone else and they pay the taxes.

I would love more information.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

cfuhrer said:


> I fail to see how changing title changes property taxes... unless you title it to someone else and they pay the taxes.
> 
> I would love more information.


Here in NC depending on your income you get exempt on the first 25k if its your personal residence after you are 65.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

cfuhrer said:


> I fail to see how changing title changes property taxes... unless you title it to someone else and they pay the taxes.
> 
> I would love more information.


That would be a local tax law.... state and local deal....
Senior home owner with the same extra kenai bough home and exemption.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

The homestead is now in my name. Albert J. Sourdough, "A Single Male". (Note: Not my real name)

That the deed states, "A Single Male" also offers protection should I get married at some point.

Where I live, if 65 y/o or older, your personal residence is exempt from Real Estate tax up to $300,000.00 of "Assessed" Value. If my property was "Assessed" at over $300,000.00 then I would be taxed on the amount over.

The point is there are many reasons to regularly review how you hold title. Different states, counties, boroughs, etc. have there own rules. 




cfuhrer said:


> I fail to see how changing title changes property taxes... unless you title it to someone else and they pay the taxes.
> 
> I would love more information.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

well, I hope I own my few acres I have about 30 miles away because that is where I am heading in a few months. I own this too but the little falling down shack I have out there means more to me. stuff like this makes me worry but I'm sure of it. both properties I pay taxes on and are solely in my name. the one out in the country has been in my name since 73. ~Georgia


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Hmm, very interesting. I must check to see if AZ has any tax deals for old folks. I own my property outright as a single woman, however: I need to get my DB on the deed as well but have some concerns that some long lost creditor of his will attach something to my home for a debt he did not pay a zillion years ago. I need to set it up so that when either of us dies the land and houses go to our children (my 1- his 4) and that it cannot be sold without all five voting unanimously to sell. I want my daughter to inherit my half of the property and the other half goes to the four DB's kids. I know there is a way to do all of this but I keep putting it at the bottom of the list...which is not a good idea!


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Example to thunk on. Two people fall madly in love, after period they get married. Both have children from previous marriage. One of them has hardworking fine children........the other has children that are vile, drug dealing & using terrorist scum.

Two weeks after the marriage the one with wonderful children puts the title to the expensive home/farm/ranch/homestead, they own free and clear, and has been in the family for hundred years into both there names. 

Two minutes after the deed is recorded both are killed in a car crash. However one is declared dead one minute after the other. 

How title was held could make a difference in who's children get what.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Note

In Alaska by law... husband die first in such car, boating plane, fire etc. The wife will be the survivor of the husband.


Check your state laws.


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

Sourdough said:


> Example to thunk on. Two people fall madly in love, after period they get married. Both have children from previous marriage. One of them has hardworking fine children........the other has children that are vile, drug dealing & using terrorist scum.
> 
> Two weeks after the marriage the one with wonderful children puts the title to the expensive home/farm/ranch/homestead, they own free and clear, and has been in the family for hundred years into both there names.
> 
> ...


Indeed it could!

That is the situation my sister and I find ourselves facing with my mom's new husband and his... offspring.

My mom likes the "ostrich method" of estate planning.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

those are things to think on for sure if anyone was contemplating marriage or even living together for a certain period. I had a friend who did this and ended up losing home, money which was considerable. she died alone in a small apartment. grieved herself to death. ~Georgia.


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## Shin (Mar 25, 2014)

Sourdough said:


> I held title to my current homestead in a LLC (Limited Liability Company) for about twelve years. When I retired and turned 65 y/o I changed how I hold title so that I avoid having to pay and Real Estate taxes on the property.
> 
> There can be many reasons to review how you hold title as your life changes.


How do you do that?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

See post number eleven above.



Shin said:


> How do you do that?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

At some point down the road, I will deed this property to someone or some entity, and "RETAIN" a "Life Estate" which will take me out of an ownership position, but allow me to live here as long as I live. If after that I was litigated against and loss, the "Life Estate" is not attachable.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

sisterpine said:


> Hmm, very interesting. I must check to see if AZ has any tax deals for old folks. I own my property outright as a single woman, however: I need to get my DB on the deed as well but have some concerns that some long lost creditor of his will attach something to my home for a debt he did not pay a zillion years ago. I need to set it up so that when either of us dies the land and houses go to our children (my 1- his 4) and that it cannot be sold without all five voting unanimously to sell. I want my daughter to inherit my half of the property and the other half goes to the four DB's kids. I know there is a way to do all of this but I keep putting it at the bottom of the list...which is not a good idea!



My neighbors done something similar to their children I would advise serious thought about finding another way to do this other then leaving it undivided to all of them. It's a good thought but the reality of life and the dynamics of multiple people getting along and making decisions together doesn't always work out the way we would like for it too.

I hope I'm not side tracking the post too much.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> This is a cut and past of a thread that I started on another forum. Sadly they chose to hi-jack it into a rant about property taxes. That is NOT what this is about. There must be 25 to 40 ways to hold title to Real Estate.


Well, so for, this has pretty much been about property taxes, rant or not.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I can be 'foreclosed on', a legal process in which a lender has an interest in a property for which they lent money to buy. On a paid for property, there should be no lender.

*Are you going to answer that, or not ?*


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> Well, so for, this has pretty much been about property taxes, rant or not.
> 
> I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I can be 'foreclosed on', a legal process in which a lender has an interest in a property for which they lent money to buy. On a paid for property, there should be no lender.
> 
> *Are you going to answer that, or not ?*



Do you know what a judgement is........Even more to the point is do you know what a "Deficiency Judgement" is.......????

You own your property free and clear. You paid cash in green hundred dollar bills. It is all yours.

I'll tell you what you get a five million dollar "Umbrella Insurance" Policy. Then get in a car crash where the other car has two or four children who are paralyzed for life. See what happens. Hell, get ten million dollar policy if you can afford the pmts. OK, Twenty million dollar policy. You can't have enough insurance for some events.

I was at a gun show in Anchorage, Alaska and I had four tables. The guy next to me was setting up his table, this was before the show opened to the public, when a friend of his walked up and asked if he could put his "ONE" firearm on his table. The guy say's sure, the friend sets it down and it goes "BANG" like only a 30/06 inside a room can do. Four people hit by the bullet. The guy who rented the table, was liable NOT the gun owner. The gun owner owned nothing and was selling the gun to pay bills. The guy who rented the tables (and never touched the firearm) his Homeowners Insurance paid out up to the limit of $300,000.00 Guess who lost everything.....??


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Sourdough said:


> At some point down the road, I will deed this property to someone or some entity, and "RETAIN" a "Life Estate" which will take me out of an ownership position, but allow me to live here as long as I live. If after that I was litigated against and loss, the "Life Estate" is not attachable.


Unless it is taken by eminent domain.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Alaska legislature put in controls to limit eminent domain as a result of the cases that happen where private land was taken for private reasons.

The justification of increasing tax precedes is NOT a reasonable in Alaska .... 
Only for limited reason... that benefit out of need of specific land and only for common good.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> Do you know what a judgement is........Even more to the point is do you know what a "Deficiency Judgement" is.......????



Yes, I'm familiar with them, having used it to collect damages from a former renter. ANY real, or personal, property ( including bank accounts, vehicles, farm equipment, etc) can be attached with a judgment from winning a court case.

That's still not a foreclosure, but perhaps you simply mixed up terms.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> Yes, I'm familiar with them, having used it to collect damages from a former renter. ANY real, or personal, property ( including bank accounts, vehicles, farm equipment, etc) can be attached with a judgment from winning a court case.
> 
> That's still not a foreclosure, but perhaps you simply mixed up terms.




If you have a Judgement you attach the Judgement to the property. That is to say you record the judgement as a lien on the property. You then foreclose on the property. If your property sells for $200,000.00 Free and clear, and if my Judgement is greater than the net proceed from the sale, I simply file a Deficiency Judgement on all your other properties. And foreclose on them till you either file bankruptcy or the debt is recovered.

The problem with this is that it requires a Judicial Foreclosure as opposed to a Non-Judicial Foreclosure.

This assumes that a Pre-judgement attachment had not been filed earlier.

And with this I am done playing games with you.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> And with this I am done playing games with you.



Hey man, you're the one that waltzed in with the thread, acting like a know-it-all and throwing out tidbits of info.

Play it anyway you like.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Land Patent

One site that talks about Land Patents:

"[FONT=Arial, helvetica] While it is generally believed in America today that the purpose of the American revolution was to resist taxation without representation. The primary reason for the revolution was to deliver America's Land Titles out of the hands of Great Britain and return them to the people. It was assumed by many, before the Revolution, that England rightfully "owned" America. It was because of this assumption that she gave grants of land to supportive Colonists, then taxes the Colonists as subjects. But, the patriots, of that day, insisted that the King of England did not own the land ... so it was not his to grant. After the Revolution, the land became the property of each [67] State's people, with the authority in the people to parcel out the land to claimants in a fair and equitable manner. If some land remained unoccupied, Jefferson said: that anyone occupying it had possession, the right of ownership, land title, was then to be held by way of ALLODIAL TITLE. That simply meant that there was "No Superior" to the land owner. He was the Superior, the Sovereign on his land."

http://www.freedomforallseasons.org...- What Is A Land Patent - Allodial Titles.htm
[/FONT]


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## Solar Geek (Mar 14, 2014)

Sourdough said:


> Some reference stuff:
> 
> http://arctic.org/~dean/sircam/Title(s) - best way to hold real estate.html
> 
> ...


Sourdough THANKS! I read each article and many of the side linked articles and sent them to my DH. We are planning for his retirement SOON and doing our wills again so this was not only helpful but timely.

Again, thanks!!!!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I own and live on a patented gold and silver mine claim, I heard it's the highest form of land ownership in the US. I know I own a lot of dirt.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

When my parents died, liquidating the estate and dividing it out was a nightmare. Their wills were old, out-of-date, and there were clear conflicts between the wills.

After the funeral the siblings all met and verbally agreed, to do an equal splitting among us.

Then months went by and I had no idea that my siblings would turn on each other in such a vicious manner.

Currently our land is in my name only. I have thought about forming a LLC and listing myself, my wife and our children all as members of the board and share-holders in common.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

We have an Irrevocable Trust set up for the house, land, investments, guns etc. We had it set up a few years ago in case something happened to my wife and I to protect our son (11) and to set up for his guardianship.

Chuck


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> Alaska legislature put in controls to limit eminent domain as a result of the cases that happen where private land was taken for private reasons.
> 
> The justification of increasing tax precedes is NOT a reasonable in Alaska ....
> Only for limited reason... that benefit out of need of specific land and only for common good.


Who said for private concerned they might want to build a prison or build a highway or build a park or many other concerns that are the Government. I doubt that might happen but it is a possibility and no body can do anything.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

:hijacked::hijacked:If you would like I would be happy to start you a new thread.........titled, "Let's all rant about eminent domain".

But I would like to point out this thread is about: how title is held.




Old Vet said:


> Who said for private concerned they might want to build a prison or build a highway or build a park or many other concerns that are the Government. I doubt that might happen but it is a possibility and no body can do anything.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Old Vet said:


> Who said for private concerned they might want to build a prison or build a highway or build a park or many other concerns that are the Government. I doubt that might happen but it is a possibility and no body can do anything.


Prison.... dealt with on this issue with the legislature specially

Fear in my neck of the woods over the Nikiski,

Alaska oil companies will try to avoid eminent domain to ...
www.adn.com/.../oil-companies-say...using-eminent-domain-nikiski-land
The oil companies and the state say they hope to avoid using the power of eminent domain to acquire hundreds of acres for a natural gas liquefaction plant.
Chenault Answers Eminent Domain Concern | Radio Kenai
radiokenai.net/chenault-answers-eminent-domain-concern
Nikiski homeowners have been waiting further developments in the Alaska LNG Project. The Big 3 oil companies, along with TransCanada and the State of Alaska, are ...
Pipelines | Texas Condemnation
texascondemnation.com/category/pipelines
... new pipeline permitting rules that require oil companies to verify their common ... Texas eminent domain law is unique and it is very important for ...
Eminent domain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain
Eminent domain (United States, the Philippines), compulsory purchase (United Kingdom, New Zealand, Ireland), resumption (Hong Kong), resumption / compulsory ...
Meaning Â· North America Â· Europe Â· Australia Â· South America Â· Asia
Land buys, surveys continue at proposed Nikiski LNG site ...
www.alaskajournal.com/...Issue-3-2014/...at-proposed-Nikiski-LNG-site
NIKISKI â Several reporters and industry representatives from ExxonMobil and the Alaska LNG Project visited the Kenai Peninsula Oct. 9 during a showcase of the ...
Eminent Domain Meeting in Nikiski | Radio Kenai
radiokenai.net/eminent-domain-meeting-in-nikiski
A community meeting will be held in Nikiski tonight to discuss emerging concerns about eminent domain. Constitutional scholar Bob Bird will host the 7pm gathering at ...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Property tax is a use tax, paid to, perhaps indirectly, the entity who holds the superior interest in the land.
US citizens are not in possession of rights, only privileges and immunities as acknowledged by the 14th amendment.
One must divest themselves of US corporate citizenship and benefits, and at least revert to Citizenship in their own state republic before one has the standing to OWN land, and that, according to the courts, can only be secure and guaranteed under Land Pant, and not a mere deed, on which you will always be listed as tenant, not owner.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner, you've posted that many times thru the years, and it's still difficult for me to wrap my brain around what you are really meaning.

But, one question that you may have already answered somewhere along the years, a what date did the US become the corporate entity as you refer to it now?

Thanks


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The constitution is the corporate charter for the US.

That document both provides for the full manifestation of what we have today, as well as making provision for all of the safeguards that are still available and on the books for those who wish to exist and function outside of the US democracy/dictatorship and in the original, organic American republic.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Furthermore....... I have posted this before, as well, but it bears repeating, time and again.

The US Supreme Court makes very clear that US citizens are not privy to the first 8 amendments.

So, who is ?

" Do you have the same rights as citizens of the United States by virtue of the 14 amendment as do natural Citizens of the Republic in which the United States exists?

In Twining v. New Jersey 'due process' seems to take on a distinction separate from what many people believe today. "The right of trial by jury in civil cases, guaranteed by the Seventh Amendment (Walker v. Sauvinet, 92 US 90), and the right to bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment (Presser v. Illinois, 116 US 252),* have been distinctly held not *to be privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment against abridgement by the States, and in effect the same decision was made in respect of the guarantee against prosecution, except by indictment by grand jury, contained in the Fifth Amendment (Hurtado v. California, 110 US 516), and in respect of the right to be confronted with witness es, contained in the Sixth Amendment. West v. Louisiana, 194 US 258. In Maxwell v. Dow, supra, where the plaintiff in error had been convicted in a state court of a felony upon information and by a jury of eight persons, it was held that the indictment, made indispensable by the Fifth Amendment, and the trial by jury guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, were not privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, as those words were used in the Fourteenth Amendment... the decision rested upon the ground that this clause of the Fourteenth Amendment did not forbid the States to abridge the personal rights enumerated in the first eight Amendments, because these rights were not within the meaning of the clause 'privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States.' ...We conclude, therefore, that the exemption from compulsory self-incrimination is not a privilege or immunity of National citizenship guaranteed by this clause of the Fourteenth Amendment against abridgement by the States..."

From the link: http://presys.com/~ekklesia/cvc.htm


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thanks Forerunner, now that I have a bit more time, I may be able to research more of what you've posted.
Not that I expect to find land to purchase (when I can afford something) that would qualify for those parameters.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

For a real education, give this PDF a look.

http://freedom-school.com/land_patents-allodial_title.pdf

Ignore the commentary, if you prefer, and merely skim to the case references scattered throughout.

Very telling.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> Prison.... dealt with on this issue with the legislature specially
> 
> Fear in my neck of the woods over the Nikiski,
> 
> ...


OK then no body has anything to fear since eminent domain cant be used in Alaska at all. You can hold a tile any way you want and die trying to defend it from anybody that want it badly enough.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Yes, this will be interesting...

Growth for the common good...friends selling and friends worried.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thanks forerunner, I will.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

In all honestly the state owns all the land and you can rent it by paying taxes on it. Don't trust me just stop paying taxes on it and you will find out.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Oh?

And just how and when did the state wrest absolute title away from the people, Old Vet ?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I have owned Real Estate in several boroughs in Alaska that have zero Real Estate tax for everyone. Lake and Peninsula Borough for example. That would include my Fishing lodge in King Salmon, Alaska and my Lake Clark homestead.



Old Vet said:


> In all honestly the state owns all the land and you can rent it by paying taxes on it. Don't trust me just stop paying taxes on it and you will find out.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I am done posting on this thread. I am deeply sorry that this thread turned into a rant about eminent domain.

If you want to worry about eminent domain........you are a fool, but I don't give a spit.
In my opinion and in my experience if your property is titled wrongly you could end up S.O.L.

High-jackers this thread is all yours.....RANT AWAY......


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I get what your saying sour, I thought a LLC kept liens on the company not the property but I'm very ignorant in that area of business. I just hear friends mention they got LLC to keep liability off themselves. 

Let's not argue, it's just mis communication. Your knowing what your talking about but conveying it a little vague for personal privacy I'm sure. I dont blame you. 

So do you know what title is best to be held under? I have land snowmobiles cross. Yes they have blanket coverage but I worry still. Also, all it takes is one lying individual to say you owe them xyz and you have to spend $$$ to prove the false accusation. Ask me how I know :-/. There are losers around every corner. Anyone you let walk in your door can say anything they want. If they are a good liar you could end up with a false lien on your investment. 

So tell me how should I title my deeds?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

&#8220;A patent for land is the highest evidence of title and is conclusive as against the government and all claiming under junior patents or titles [United States v. Stone, 2 US 525].&#8221;

&#8220;The patent alone passes land from the United States to the grantee and nothing passes a perfect title to public lands but a patent.&#8221; [Wilcox v. Jackson 13 Peter, US 498]

&#8220;Patents are issued (and theoretically passed) between sovereigns and deeds are executed by persons and private corporations without those sovereign powers&#8221;. [Leading Fighter v. County of Gregory, 230 n. w. 2dI14, 116 (1975)]
&#8220;A patent regularly issued by the government is the best and only evidence of a perfect. The actual patent should be secured to place at rest arty question as to validity of entries&#8221;. [Young v. Miller, 125 so. 2d 257, 258 (1960).]


&#8220;At common law there was no tax lien.&#8221; [Cassidy v. Aroostock, 134 ME. 34]

&#8220;After the American revolution, lands in this state (Maryland) became allodial, subject to no tenure, nor to any services or taxes there to&#8221; (Matthews v. Ward 10 Gill & J. (Md) 443 (1839)

&#8220;The patent is the only evidence of the legal fee simple title.&#8221; [McConnell v. Wilcox, I scam. (ILL) 381 396 (1837)]
&#8220;Patent rights to the land is the title in fee.&#8221; [City of Los Angeles v. Board of Supervisors of Mono County, 292p. 2d539(I956)]
&#8220;The patent the fee simple [Squire v. Capoeman, 351 U. S. l, 6 (1956)]
&#8220;and the patent is required to carry the fee &#8220;[Carter v. Ruddy 166 U.S. 493, 496 (1896)]

&#8220;I affirm that a patent is unimpeachable at law, except, perhaps, when it appears on its own face to be void; and the authorities on this point are so uniform and unbroken in the courts, federal and state, that little else will be necessary beyond a reference to them.&#8221; [Hooper et. al. v. Scheimer, 64 US. (23 how.) 235 (1859)]


&#8220;A warranty deed is like any other deed of conveyance [Mahrenholz v, County Board of School Trustees of Lawrence County, et. al., 93 Ill ap. 3d 366 (1981)]
&#8220;A warranty deed or deed of conveyance is a color of title.&#8221; (Dempsey v. Burns. 281 Ill. 644, 65 (1917)
&#8220;Deeds constitute colors of title&#8221; (Dryden v Newman 1161LL 186 (1886)
&#8220;A deed that purports to convey interest in the land is a color of title.&#8221; [Hinckley v. Green. 52 ILL 223 (1869)]
&#8220;A deed which on its face, purports to convey a title, constitutes a claim and color of title &#8220; [Busch v. Huston, 75 III 343 (1874); Chickering V. Failes, 26 ILL. 508 (1861)]
&#8220;A quit claim deed is color of title &#8220;[Safford v. Stubbs 117 ILL. 389 (1886)] &#8220;Sheriffs deeds also are colors of title &#8220;[Kendrick v. Latham 25 Fla. 819 (1889)]
&#8220;Thus any tax deed which purports, on its face, to convey title is a good color of title&#8221; [Walker v. Converse, 148 ILL. 622 629 (1894)

&#8220;A color of title is that which in appearance is title but which in reality is not title.&#8221;
f Wright v. Mattison, 18 How. (U. S.) 50 (1855) 

&#8220;Deeds are actually color of title&#8221; [G. Thompson, Title To Real Property, Preparation And Examination Of Abstracts, Ch. 3 Para. 73, P. 93 (1919)]

&#8220;A will passes only color of title&#8221; (Baldwin v. Ratcliff, 125 ILL. 376 (1888); [Bradley v. Rees, 113 ILL 327 (1885)]
&#8220;legal title to property is contingent upon the patent issuing from the government.&#8221; [Sabo v. Horvath, 559 p. 2d 1038, 1040 (aka. 1976)]
&#8220;that the patent carries the fee and is the best title known to a court of law is settled doctrine of this court,&#8221; [Marshall v. Ladd, 7 Wall. (74 U.S.) 106 (1869)]
&#8220;a patent issued by the government of united states is legal and conclusive evidence of title to the land described therein, no equitable interest, however strong, to land described in such patent can prevail at law, against the patent.&#8221; [Land Patents, Opinions of the United States Attorney General&#8217;s office. (Sept.1869)]


&#8220;a patent is the highest evidence of title, and is conclusive against the government and all claiming under junior titles, until it is set aside or annulled by some judicial tribunal.&#8221; [Stone v. United States, 1 Well. (67 U.S. 765 (1865)]
&#8220;the patent is the instrument which, under the laws of congress, passes title from the United States and the patent when regular on its ,face, is conclusive evidence of title in the patentee, when there is a confrontation between two parties as to the superior legal title, the patent is conclusive evidence as to ownership.&#8221; [Gibson v. Chauteau, 13 Wall 92 (1871)]
&#8220;congress having the sole power to declare the dignity and effect it&#8217;s titles has declared the patent to be the superior and conclusive evidence of the legal title.&#8221; [Bagnell v. Broderick, 38 U.S. 438 (1839)]
&#8220;issuance of a government patent granting title to the land is &#8216;the most accredited type of conveyance know to our law&#8217; &#8220;, [United States v. Creek Nation, 295 U.S. 103,111, (1935)]; [United States v. Cherokee Nation, 474 f. 2d 628,634 (1973)]
&#8220;the patent is prima facie conclusive evidence of the title.&#8221; [Marsh v. Brooks, 49 U.S. 223,233 (1850)]
&#8220;a patent, once issued, is the highest evidence of title, and is final determination of the existence of all facts,&#8221; [Walton v. United States, 415 f2d 121,123 (10th cir. (1969)]

That should convey the relevance of the patent, and the wholly subordinate nature of the deed........to this thread.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

It is rare for a thread here NOT to wander off the original topic, but it is easy enough to steer it back on track. 

Sourdough, there are more than a few of us who are very interested in the points you brought to light and may benefit from additional information.

Your input and experience is valuable, so I will be watching this thread hoping for a change of heart...


.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

OK get it now You are taking about Alaska not the lower states. Everything that I have posted is about all the other states. But you deserved all of that and more if you live near the Arctic Circle.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> Oh?
> 
> And just how and when did the state wrest absolute title away from the people, Old Vet ?


In the 1700's. That is the way to pay the bills of each state. That was the way until they started to run out of money and passed other taxes. You may want to read the real American History to find out things like that.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Forerunner, you've posted that many times thru the years, and it's still difficult for me to wrap my brain around what you are really meaning.
> 
> But, one question that you may have already answered somewhere along the years, a what date did the US become the corporate entity as you refer to it now?
> 
> Thanks


Angie,

Not really a reply to your message but I have not seen you around for quite some time and I wanted to say that I am happy to cross your trail. I've been posting less since I last 'saw' you so it is probably me that is being less outgoing. Coincidence or correlation - you never know.

Robert


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Old Vet said:


> In the 1700's. That is the way to pay the bills of each state. That was the way until they started to run out of money and passed other taxes. You may want to read the real American History to find out things like that.


Thanks.

I'll take that to heart.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

logbuilder said:


> Angie,
> 
> Not really a reply to your message but I have not seen you around for quite some time and I wanted to say that I am happy to cross your trail. I've been posting less since I last 'saw' you so it is probably me that is being less outgoing. Coincidence or correlation - you never know.
> 
> Robert


Thanks logbuilder. I was not posting so much and plan to post more in the future. I hope you will also. I know I miss your posts and I bet others do also.

Angie


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I haven't read the entire thread so I might be repeating something already said. 

The only way to totally protect your land is with a land patent. It's been tested a few times and has always held for the patent holder even protecting the land from *Eminent domain* seizure. 

My research has shown that land patents are available in every state except Texas. I've read that there is a way to patent your land in Texas, but since I don't own land there I haven't researched it. 

Land patents are kind of simple to get, but it takes a lot of work. All you really need is proof that you own the land outright (deed with no mortgage), a copy of your abstract, a copy of the patent currently on file, and the application filled out to file for the land patent. People often run into a problem with the abstract. If they don't have one, it can cost thousands of dollars to have one made.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Spinner said:


> I haven't read the entire thread so I might be repeating something already said.
> 
> The only way to totally protect your land is with a land patent. It's been tested a few times and has always held for the patent holder even protecting the land from *Eminent domain* seizure.
> 
> ...


We are buying some land, cash. What is an abstract and where/how do you find a copy of the current patent?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

An abstract is simply a stack of all deeds, wills, possibly bills of sale and any other paperwork that has been recorded from the first "owner" of a piece of land to the modern day. Interestingly enough, they generally do not include the Original Land Patent.

Hmmmmmmmm.........

For the Patent, you can procure certified copy, which carries all of the power of the original, from the Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management.

The Patent means little if you are a US citizen exercising 14th amendment privileges and immunities, which is just about every benefit, license, credit, banking and government affiliation, otherwise, that one can imagine.
One must need be Sui juris.....in full possession of rights, and really have their ducks in a row to have standing and be taken seriously to exercise Patent rights.
The day is late and they can see through a weak case or a frivolous claim like a polished window.

........and that is just what I read from those who are advocating a return to natural rights and educating people as to the admittedly established, fundamental and absolute document that is the Land Patent, as compared to the temporal and casual nature of any deed.

The modern courts are much more brutal.......because people are trying to exercise rights as US citizens and not American nationals unaffiliated with Club D.C.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> An abstract is simply a stack of all deeds, wills, possibly bills of sale and any other paperwork that has been recorded from the first "owner" of a piece of land to the modern day.


I bought a half-acre lot in a subdivision in Louisiana in 1992.

The abstract was two books nearly 2 inches thick each. Went all the way back to the 1700s.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I can see how certain areas of the country would be less inclined to bury the truth as deeply as others.

Was there reference to the Patent in that abstract, Tarbe ?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Forerunner said:


> Furthermore....... I have posted this before, as well, but it bears repeating, time and again.
> 
> The US Supreme Court makes very clear that US citizens are not privy to the first 8 amendments.
> 
> ...



Twining vs. New Jersey (1908) was overturned by Malloy vs. Hogan (1964).


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Which portion ?

I've seen property case law overturned, as well.......mostly in the 40s, after Roosevelt's "New Deal"......all favoring government over the landowner.
All the natural evolution as the people are gradually conditioned to forget their roots, rights and power at the individual level.

Can't say as I was impressed.

::Edited for tact and focus.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

I have no idea how someone's land that is bought and paid for can be foreclosed on my anybody unless it had a title defect, and there is nothing about the way you hold title that would cure such a thing in your deed.

I own part of my land in my name and part of it I own jointly with other family members though not of record as we have not recorded anything on our parents' deaths. I also own commercial property as part of an LLC. The prior owner of the LLC property is 85 and owned everything in his own name until a few years ago when he started planning for his death and he is a lawyer and a multi-millionaire.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

A lot of state Constitution's state all land is vested in the state ,you purchase right of usage provided you pay the taxes :duel:


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Sawmill Jim said:


> A lot of state Constitution's state all land is vested in the state ,you purchase right of usage provided you pay the taxes :duel:


Sounds medieval. The State is King?


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Shine said:


> Sounds medieval. The State is King?


We don't even pay property tax to the state. Taxes are a perpetual lien, but it is not a foreclosure. It is a tax sale.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Shine said:


> Sounds medieval. The State is King?


Yep but in a way we can only hold temporary use any things on this earth.:rain:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Declan said:


> I have no idea how someone's land that is bought and paid for can be foreclosed on my anybody unless it had a title defect, and there is nothing about the way you hold title that would cure such a thing in your deed.


Pretty much. A deed is not title.
A deed is a check, at best.......uncashed.

The Patent, and the standing to exercise the rights acknowledged therein, are gold, in hand.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Yep but in a way we can only hold temporary use any things on this earth.:rain:


God first told Adam.......dress it and _keep_ it.

It can be done because God said so, and early American congress agreed and made provision for it with the Land Patent, but the modern day STATE ain't going to do it for you.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> God first told Adam.......dress it and _keep_ it.
> 
> It can be done because God said so, and early American congress agreed and made provision for it with the Land Patent, but the modern day STATE ain't going to do it for you.


But didn't Adams patent expire when he ate of the fruit of the tree . Then after that someone sold their birth right for a bowl of soup . That tells me after we expire we really don't know who will have use of the land or other goods .We in effect are less finite than the dirt :surrender:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

While we are here......good stewardship does not include bowing to their gods, nor going under the authority of men......nor funding Babylon's destructive empires as they manifest.......

Adam brought us a parcel of trouble, no doubt, but each of us are to live with an eye toward improving on his degree of obedience and communion with Father.

My experience has been, literally, if I pay my tribute and duty to Father, and the furtherance of His Kingdom......the beast rather fades away.

Truth be, Father's tax bills are pretty steep, but I look for that pendulum to swing the other way just about any time now.

The beast's Piper is gunna turn out to be one expensive dude.....right here on earth.


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## itsmesunny (Apr 15, 2003)

Hi,

Unless you have an allodial title to "your" property you do not own it.
It is owned by the state and you merely rent.

If you make use of a Land Patent you can use those to prevent a foreclosure and seizure - for reasons such as non payment of property tax, which is basically extortion, etc.

There were once 3 states that "allowed" allodial titles. I think it was Alaska and Nevada and I forget the other.

Now I think it is just these two. It would need to be researched. It's been a while since I
have looked.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Imagine the result if an entire nation were to conduct themselves only by the activities, rights and standing that the STATE might "allow".

Such a nation would look just like.........


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

itsmesunny said:


> Hi,
> 
> Unless you have an allodial title to "your" property you do not own it.
> It is owned by the state and you merely rent.
> ...


You have had very little to say on here ........ Joined in 2003.:grin:


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## phrogjlf (Apr 2, 2010)

I guess, in a way, if I can get into a property, I'll be fortunate, in that I have a 100% VA Disability. Here in Texas, all I will have to do is 'request' the tax exemption I am entitled to, by law. In theory, it might be rejected.

No idea when I joined, or how many posts I've made/not made... Is it relevant to the discussion?


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

I don't know who searches a title all the way back to the original land grant. Title companies in my state just do 65 year searches. You would have to drive halfway across the state every time just to do that with where I am in Virginia. The city used to be part of the county that used to be a part of another county that used to be a part of a giant region of the state in colonial times.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yepper.
It is as easy as putting some ink on paper for them to take your land. Don't you think it would be a little harder work to prevent them from doing it? 

Not as hard as they might make it sound though, just ask for a history lesson, like this example to start.

https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/North_Carolina_Land_and_Property



Land Grant History in North Carolina
Provincial or Proprietary Era (1663&#8211;1729). In 1663 King Charles II of England granted land in the Carolinas to eight men who had helped him regain the throne. These men were called the Lords Proprietors of Carolina, and they had the right to grant land to others. The boundaries of their grant extended from the present-day North Carolina-Virginia border on the north to a line drawn across present-day Florida on the south. During the time when they controlled the land, North Carolina was a proprietary colony.

Colonial, British Crown, or Royal Era (1729&#8211;1775). By 1729 seven of the eight proprietors sold their shares to King George II for political and economic reasons, making North Carolina a royal colony. Most of the land belonging to the Crown was located in the southern half of the state.

One proprietor refused to sell, and his domain was later known as the Granville District after one of his heirs. It covered roughly the northern half of the state. From 1748 to 1763, agents of Lord Granville made grants to vacant lands and collected rents. When the second Earl of Granville died in 1763, the Granville District office was closed.

In 1737, before the boundaries of the Granville District were established, Henry McCulloh received a royal patent for 1.2 million acres in western North Carolina. Five of his 12 tracts were within the Granville District in Orange and Rowan counties. Lands granted by McCulloh and by the Granville office were technically deeds and not grants.

Revolutionary War and State Era (1777&#8211;1959). In November 1777, while the Revolutionary War was in progress, the new General Assembly of North Carolina created a land office in every county, with each county having its own appointed entry-taker and surveyor. The entry-taker was authorized to issue a warrant for vacant lands that once belonged to either the British Crown or the Granville District.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

TripleD said:


> You have had very little to say on here ........ Joined in 2003.:grin:


Actually she may have posted a bunch way back when she joined. They purge old posts here every once in awhile.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Declan said:


> I don't know who searches a title all the way back to the original land grant. Title companies in my state just do 65 year searches. You would have to drive halfway across the state every time just to do that with where I am in Virginia. The city used to be part of the county that used to be a part of another county that used to be a part of a giant region of the state in colonial times.


Every title examiner licensed in the state of Alaska. I was one for for several years.

That kinda why I am really interested.
During my studies for the test there was a short part for which was not in any of the written materials where for an hour the guy talked about wackos..his term that don't understand things... like they might show up at a sale and offer gold and claim goal is real money cash is fiat and worthless. ...
It was a break for me and he was just telling about things he dealt with in his work life.

We were taught to draw every property. We had to show a straight line from current ownership to patient.

Every piece of land should go to patent...in Alaska the Fed has not yet issued patent for a great deal of the land here.

Those land but for rare tradition homestead lands that are squatted on for every and we were told we would never see such land or deal with it as. On the rare land that is in public hand they start the chain not with a patent but INTENT OF PATENT some property in Skagway...which misspell from original docs and no show of the name change....it is a longer name... squagierua.. something like that on the cope of the original intent.

The general index. File all parcels by longitude latitude.

...short version.. request a copy of your owners title report. It your and you should have read it and kept it. It should have a stack of support doc's.. copies of really tattered docs.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> Every title examiner licensed in the state of Alaska. I was one for for several years.
> 
> That kinda why I am really interested.
> During my studies for the test there was a short part for which was not in any of the written materials where for an hour the guy talked about wackos..his term that don't understand things... like they might show up at a sale and offer gold and claim goal is real money cash is fiat and worthless. ...
> ...



You request that from the county office?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

UWhere are your closing documents..

Did you get a owners title insurance?
Not just an Alta policy...that you buying and insurance policy for the lender

We have what are called recording offices here. That has a lot but even as a new state... our office had a charts, maps, charts for tidewater lands, plats, asbuilts weighting to be filed store there.

Every policy had to have a copy of every doc sent to the underwriter. The title company stored a total copy of all support doc.in your file they keep and files that by your name /lender.File number year and makes another copy and that is filed in the geo plant by legal.

Your tax bill should have your address and your legal address.

When docs are recorded .title companies paid for copies of all docs recorded to store on site we would get thousands a pages to file every few weeks and micro filmed stuff also. And all the plats as recorded. We got them for our region.

I hope this helps.

As to where to start.

Call your title office if you can't find it. I got calls weekly, just pulled the file and ran it thru the copy machine.. charge was per sheet and we never updated it ..so if any thing happened from the closing well that was something an own should know. Only when we up dated for say a sale or refi or foreclosure would we update and recheck prior work and new info.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

terri9630 said:


> You request that from the county office?


Respectfully, I'd say the expert on this is Forerunner. Search and read his posts on this subject.
If I remember your best source is the BLM, Bureau of Land Management, which is the dept. that grants the patent.They have a website where you can search your parcel. The other place will probably be in your state capitol, stored on microfilm. Then of course the last hundred years or so will be recorded in your county courthouse in their plat books.
From a 5 minute search I can already see everything but a 50 year stretch that is likely part of that microfilm history in Raleigh.


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## itsmesunny (Apr 15, 2003)

TripleD said:


> You have had very little to say on here ........ Joined in 2003.:grin:



True


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The Patent is easy enough to come up with, Certified Copy even......which isn't always necessary, but does carry the most power today........unless your great, great, great, great, great, great granddad passed his ORIGINAL down through the family, as should have been. 

Anyhow, yeah, BLM, Department of the Interior, maintains these records, but does not grant the patent. That is congress job, with president signature.

The good news is you don't need a new Patent granted. They likely wouldn't offer that today.....but the language on the original is sufficient, if you are NOT a US citizen/subject, and there is the clincher.

Parting company with the privileges and immunities can be tough, after the conditioning we are typically raised with in the modern day.

To procure the Patent, you will need to send your land's legal description to the BLM office pertaining to your state, and they say to send a postal money order in the amount of twenty US dollars for the service.

Go to page 56 of the PDF in the link, for BLM office addresses.

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/landpatent/land-patents-allodial-title-blackstone.pdf


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## Jim Dorchak (Aug 26, 2011)

I live now in Chile South America. I will NEVERE, EVER, ever, again have to pay property taxes. 
I live on a small homestead 6.5 acres in the country side or "Sticks". It has no address and has never been taxed, and can not by Chilean law. 

The land is held in my wife's name to protect us from the liability of my small business. 
To be clear they do have taxes on land here but those are reserved for parcels in a municipality. 

Then again who would want to live in a town or city anyway? I look at that as being taxed for being stupid.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I*BOW* to fore runner... I just read his stuff and connected that yea I had the license but it was dog and pony show. Real understanding stuff was not part of the information that was taught.

Just how to gather docs, copy ,get them in order. Prove a chain of ownership with out links missing.. rarely did I handle any docs.. that were originals or even certified conformed docs.

Looking back the doc I used simply needed sort clear image of a recorders stamp somwhere

I was just think that I know in alaska where we have access to quickly gather papers.
Recorder office. The computer there you can search by legal and name and plat #.
But if one has a cope of their docs from a title report that could save time and money.
The recorder here and certified and doc she prints out as certified.

I print it out at home I was told may be falsely... my eye are opened a bit now to the scam that we could only deal certified docs when originals were not available.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Indeed, it has been long enough that today the greater obstacle is ignorance of the Law, rather than malicious intent, at least at the local level.

That said, I suspect there are those in assessor's and treasurer's offices around the country who have been there long enough to see some telling paperwork.....and I do not hold such as guiltless.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

kasilofhome said:


> ...short version.. request a copy of your owners title report. It your and you should have read it and kept it. It should have a stack of support doc's.. copies of really tattered docs.


There is no reason for me to have the title notes. I had a friend who is a a title examiner do a 65 year search in addition to the search that was done by the title insurance company. Alaska became a state in 1959. Virgina became a state in 1788. A 65 year search in my state covers more years than Alaska has been a state.


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