# Micro hydroelectric



## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

I was wondering if there is anyone on this forum that would like to build a small power plant and did any studying on the subject. I have read about every book I can find on the subject and I don't see why people that have creeks don't make there on juice. 
It would be a lot cheaper than buying solar panels would be. :shrug:


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

i've built a banki turbine or two, neighbor used an overshoot wheel for decades. the problem (in our landlayout) is that water is a trickle in the summer with a couple of rains, the structures get flood damage. but yes you are correct. its wasted power if you don't try to capture it.


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## Dave S. (Jul 5, 2006)

This country is going backwards at the speed of light as far as hydro is concerned. We are losing something like 300 dams a year. Hydro has very little environmental impact, mostly to spawning fish, which can be worked out with a little planning. Solar and wind are very expensive compared to hydro. We need to develop any way we can to live without using fossils fuels, and if we didn't have to burn other types of fuels, that would be even better.


edit: I didn't answer your question. I have a small hydro site that I plan on developing sometime. I haven't clculated the amount power it will produce, but I am hoping it will run the how water heate in the barn. That would save about $600 per month. From my research you can build a small system fairly easily. I also have two hydro experts to call on for help. They have done systems from a coupld kw to several megawatts. I really like the idea of hydro. It is basically "free", there is no fuel costs or polutiion.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i have the intent to use the creek next to my house. there is a broken down overshot wheel there right now that i plan to restore. i will also need to restore the piping and rework the dam. it is located on the opposite side of the creek, so i will need to plant a utility pole. i would feel better if the setup was surrounded by a chainlink fence to keep kids from getting too curious. i will also need to plan how i will use the energy.

with so many other irons in the fire, and very limited resources, it is only a pipe dream at the moment...no pun intended.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Micro-hydro is something we are working on for our farmstead. We have an abundance of wind and water but I see the water as being more reliable and less complex than the wind. I had hoped to do it this year but building our house took all the time. You know how that is...


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

If you are a member of any Yahoo Groups, Check these folks out..

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/

Many on this site are doing it..


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

Well, I am glad to hear that they are still some people left that think as our grandpa's did. They weren't worried about electricity, but they used everything they could on the land they could buy. 
I feel like a water wheel is getting a bad rap, because because of in the mid 1800's when the gold rush sent everyone west, I think it was Mr. Pelton that designed the first of the modern turbines and they claimed they would make more H.P. than a water wheel would and then came the huge dams several hundred feet high and no one is going to build a water wheel they tall, so turbines became the norm. 
I think for a small creek a wheel is far better.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Here is one you can buy....... :dance: 

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/12/13/forddamsale/


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## kitaye (Sep 19, 2005)

It's something we are looking into but we've found most municipalities have a no water use law which means we can't use a creek that runs through our property if it even slightly alters the flow.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

You may have to register for riparian rights to use the water for hydropower. My state requires separate fees for hydro power generation vs. harvesting water from a stream or well, etc.


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

If I ever find the right tract of land I want, I'm not asking anyone anything and my water wheel will be built and running before they know it. 
If there is any back flash because of it, the war is on and I will make sure it is publisied across the nation. 
The way I see it, if the water comes on to my property and the same water leaves my property so I am not cutting someone off down stream, they best read the posted signs I will have surrounding my property. 
Any trespasser will be "shot at" on site, "one time"
Any trespasser that does not leave after the first warning shot will be "Shot"
with the second shot. :hobbyhors 
Actually, it isn't that hard to get a permit to build an earth dam if you have a farm and that's what I want. One atleast large enough that we can grow what we eat, and the dam overflow pipe designed right can be the penstock for the power plant, whether a wheel or turbine. 
All you would need to do is have the penstock inside the overflow and exit it below the top of the over flow so as to collect watter all the time and the over flow work as usual when more water was coming in than the penstock would flow, which should be continuoisly for the plant to work correctly.
Anyway, I'm like you MELOC, it's just a pipe dream for me right now also. 
It'll never come around if I don't get back to work, lol.
God Bless
Dennis


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,

Here is Allan's undershot wheel -- Allan put some pictures of it on this forum a while back, and then wrote up this full description:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/UnderShot/WaterWheel.htm

A few more small micro hydro projects here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/hydro.htm

Gary


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

while our creek tends to run year round we are unable to harness it because we don't own both sides. in addition it illegal to back water up on someone elses property. flooding is a problem on mosts streams . 
I enjoy drafting very much and have designed a couple low head high flow undershot wheels and dams built to deal with flood prone streams . Even a small gen designed like a sea anchor that can charge small batteries while camping .
Rather than listening to all the experts saying you can only get X amount of power from a give head . Or those that will tell you it can't be done . Just do it .
a simple 4-8 ft over shot wheel can produce a lot of power , some will say a high speed turbine will produce more and that may be but an HST is also more prone to problems 
My attitude on alternative power is simple build it yourself , that way if something breaks you know how to fix it . say a log breaks a bucket off your water wheel you can fix it , the alternator fries a coil you can replace it . now with the fancy HST factory turbine and gen your at the mercy of the manufacturer . In an SHTF thing your fancy preps were waisted , you would have a $6000 boat anchor and broken pump.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have been following that small powerplant patented by those two Brits a few months ago. But so far I have not found any details on it's internals. They claim it is great for low-head.

I do have three low-head creeks here.


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## John Hill (May 12, 2002)

Look at the hydro stuff on this site http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/product.php?group=2 which you might find interesting.

These are Pelton wheel systems, I have seen one in action and it does not require much in the way of expensive earthworks or interruption to the creek. They run a plastic water pipe upstream to get a decent head. You really dont need much water, but you do need height.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have read a lot about small pelton turbine installations.

You do need head.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

For hydro you need either a lot of head or a lot of volume 
peltons work on high head high speed low torque , over or undershot wheels work with low head high volume high torque . X amount of water will provide x amount of power, it figures the same as HP . the amount of water (volume) and head (Height ) only determine how the power can be best utilized for your area. 
You will get 1 hp for every 33000 lb. falling 1 ft in one minute ,in a perfect world . or one pound of water falling 33000 ft in one minute it all comes out the same


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

Gary, those are some pretty good sites. Thanks for shareing.

Don, have you spoken to the neighbor about building a pond. You could make your own electricity and grow you some fish also if you stocked it one time and you would know they didn't have cemicals in them such as mercury if you tested the water first.

You can rent a Bobcat or small front end loader and it doesn't take that long to build an earth dam. 
There are a lot of farm ponds in Virgina and North Carolina that have earth dams that are twenty to thirty feet high and have the over flow pipe not more than 18" in diameter. 
Even with a small flow, a twenty foot water wheel will make a lot of power. 
Don't laugh at me, but I have been building a lot of things out of emt conduit. 
1/2" is less than 4 bucks for a 10' pc., and 3/4" is less than 6 bucks.
I have built a trailer to pull behind the garden tractor for hauling fire wood using it and I load it to the hilt with 24" wide pieces of oak. It has 12" x 8" wide turf tires on it and the tires squat from the weight but the trailer just carries on. I can put 15 to 20 big pieces on it that weigh, I know 80 to 100 Lbs., each.
I think you could use a cable drum you can get for free for a hub and build one sorta like a bicycle wheel useing the 1/2" for the spokes and 16 gage sheet metal for the rim and buckets and it would work just fine. 
It is hard to weld, and I'll tell you that up front. I have welded for 35 + years. and it's all I can do to weld it and make it solid and also look good. All I have is a stick welder and if you have a mig or tig welder it would be easier, but I do things the hard way, I guess, lol.
Actually, I am building some green house kits useung it now and need to get back down stairs and finish the doors. 
I think I'll do just that. :hobbyhors 
God Bless
Dennis


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

In additional to torque there is also the problem of RPM. For example, a large water wheel may create a lot of torque, but it is at very low rpm. It then has to be geared up to what would be needed by a generator. A Penton wheel may not provide much torque, but it does so at a high rpm.

I too would like to see more details on the British system mentioned about a month ago. From what I can see they have both low torque and low rpm. Interestingly, from the one photograph, it looked like they may have had enough fall for a Pelton-type system.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

A big issue with designing these is speed regulation, if you are making AC.

Only with DC can not really not pay attention to RPM.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> A big issue with designing these is speed regulation, if you are making AC.
> 
> Only with DC can not really not pay attention to RPM.


trying to get 120 or 220vac at 60htz is a royal pain . 
though 12 -48 volt dc also can present problems .
its fairly easy to make a three phase ac pm alternator then rectify it to 12-48 volt dc . you can get good out put at low rpm your still use a battery bank and inverter for 110ac but the AC will allow smaller wires with less loss than DC .
get a copy Of Hughs wind power book the alts can be modified to work on hydro. 
Id like to try a motor conversion but with out a lathe its a little out of my league


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

crafty2002 said:


> Don, have you spoken to the neighbor about building a pond. You could make your own electricity and grow you some fish also if you stocked it one time and you would know they didn't have cemicals in them such as mercury if you tested the water first.


our state wont allow it though I am working on a small floating wheel to get a few watts . the sea anchor type floater has made upto 6 watts but is prone to clogging with debri it was more to see if I could make it work . 
Our creek isnt fit for raising fish it has high levels of chloridain


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I was figuring on using automotive generators putting out DC, to a battery, right there local in a dugout next to the wheel/turbine. A solid-state invertor can make it into AC, for transmission long distance to my home.

The only reall issue becomes shifting each household circuit over onto these. If one micro-hydro set-up is going to make low wattage 24 hours a day. Whereas my housedhold demand is at peak times, and would easily exceed that.

So I was thinking about bringing the output from each micro-hydro through the forest using AC, into the house, rectify each and feed a battery bank bus. Then each 20 amp circuit of my house can individually be fed by a solid-state invertor, coming from that bus.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Im afraid you'll discover that automotive alts and gens dont hold up to well .
in addition they require high RPM . A 30 amp car alt will require 5-10 hp for top preformance . With a home built PM alt you can get the same wattage at a much lower rpm . Ive seen you metal working ability and a axial alt is well with in your ability. 
for a car alt you'll need at least 1800 rpm , another draw back is they arent really designed to run 24/7 and will wear out quickly . 
running a hydro with a battery bank should provide plenty of power . you will need a good charge controller as over charging batteries will kill them quicker than running them dead . you might also need a power dump it can be as simple as heating element to use excess power generated < Or just leave a few lights on


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> Im afraid you'll discover that automotive alts and gens dont hold up to well ....


It had been my understanding that Generators do, while alternators do not.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

A brushless alternator producing 3 phase wild AC (high voltage ac for long distance transmission) rectum-fied to DC.


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## ed/IL (May 11, 2002)

Check out this message board. http://www.fieldlines.com/section/hydro edited to add a link. http://www.wildwaterpower.com/ He uses a sprial pump on paddle wheel to get enough presure to run a small turbine. Might work in a stream. Have a look see.


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> Im afraid you'll discover that automotive alts and gens dont hold up to well .
> in addition they require high RPM . A 30 amp car alt will require 5-10 hp for top preformance . With a home built PM alt you can get the same wattage at a much lower rpm . Ive seen you metal working ability and a axial alt is well with in your ability.
> for a car alt you'll need at least 1800 rpm , another draw back is they arent really designed to run 24/7 and will wear out quickly .
> running a hydro with a battery bank should provide plenty of power . you will need a good charge controller as over charging batteries will kill them quicker than running them dead . you might also need a power dump it can be as simple as heating element to use excess power generated < Or just leave a few lights on


I was just going back through some of my threads and read this one again, don, and I would have to dis agree with you somewhat. 
There are several makers of small turbine generators that use AC-Delco alternators. Harris Hydroelectric Systems is one of them.
they have an 80 amp system which given the head and the flow produces up to a 1,500 watt maximum and it is garanteed for 12 months. It would produce over $1,000 worth of electricity (which really isn't that much more than the system cost to start with) in that 12 months and at the most, after that you would have a $100 alternator or a $200 pelton wheel to replace.
You can also think about the high output alernators on police crusiers that are hardly ever turned off. 
I think a good system would be to start with an alternator from a rig. I have no idea how many amps they make, but it has to be on up there with the lights and equipment they use, some team drivers run coast to coast and never cut them off, some of them has the sleeper with computors, TV's, Sterios, and even coffee pots and micro waves, and they are 24 volts also. 
The small bronze Harris Pelton wheels have a 4 " diameter pitch, but I figure if you used a truck alternator you would have to design your on with about a 8" to 12" diameter to get it to turn. 
The alternators off a car is heavy for it's size but the ones on the big rigs are something else. 
I am just guessing here, but they have to make several thousand watts as large as they are compared to one that makes 80 amps at 12 volts. 
Plus they are designed to run on a desiel and I live withing a 100 yards of where there is a parking lot where they park rigs at and sleep overnight. There is a small store just past it I walk to atleast every other day and there is always one setting there idleing. At night there will be several setting there with the curtains pulled and all kinds of light coming from them. Sense I started this thread I have struck up a conversation with a few of the drivers and they would offer for me to look inside the rig. Bragging rights, I guess, but about the only thing some of these things don't have that you would find in a large camper is a bathroom, and one of them had a composting toilet in his. 
But none of them so far hs known how many amps the alternator makes. :shrug: 
One black guy had one of those super thumper sterios in his and he said it had a 1,200 watt speaker system in it. I was happy as a kid when I got a 35 watt system, lol. 
Any way, I am still piddleing at looking into it, and for my two cents, I ma thinking a 24 volt alternator from a rig is the best way to go. Either that or from a bus. They too have alot of lights and run 24/7's. 
Well, got to go get robed for a can of gas so I can till some more rows in the garden, lol.................. :hobbyhors


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Brushless generators are cool.

long lasting, no brushes to wear out, and you do not require diodes.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Well now......thank Katy for my reopening this enlightening thread.

I have recently been stewing more intensely than ever over the waste of water that runs through my spread every time it rains.
I have two sites that will make power.
The upper offers 50-70 feet of head at an intermittent (three-four hours a day) 40-50 gallons a minute with potential intermittent use (an hour or two a day) at 100-150 gpm.
The lower site currently has no head, but may soon..... and offers a consistent 20-30 gpm year 'round. I intend to turn the lower area into a very large battery, backing up nearly an acre of water 15-20 feet deep, and allowing myself a ten or fifteen feet reservoir to serve the water system. That way I can dump three hundred gallon a minute, dropping it that ten-fifteen, maybe even twenty feet, and thus run a heavier, slower water wheel for sheer power.
I always wanted a shop with water wheel/line shaft power.
I'm thinking of building the wheel on the dual rims of a two ton truck and run the power right through the differential and drive shaft, utilizing the heavy old transmission to choose my speed and power to the line shaft.

For those with real hands-on, does any of this sound plausible ?

Oh, and....I've always heard them say that the old time water wheels were inefficient.
What was/is inefficient about them ?
I'm thinking if three hundred gallons a minute running through a six or eight inch pipe hits and fills the top bucket of an eight foot wheel and each bucket thereafter in sequence...... something is going to start turning and it ain't going to stop.

Have I been smoking too much rainwater ? :shrug:


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