# No more Mr. Nice Guy



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The time has finally come. I am compelled to quit this monkeying around and get serious about the knitting business. This is going to be the thread where I ask the really hard questions... you know, where I'm fishing for those hard-to-find little tidbits of information, the eventual accumulation of which could drive a weaker man to drink.

For starters, is there a natural fiber that is known, ahead of and beyond all others, for it's durability and elasticity in say, a K2P2 turtleneck ribbing application ? 
Time and again I have seen the pert young turtleneck sag over the years and become a rather unbecoming cowl. 

This, I wish to avoid.

Direction, por favor ?


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## Ozarkquilter46 (Jun 5, 2002)

shetland sheep wool and shetland sheep sweaters have been around for centurys


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## Katherine in KY (May 11, 2002)

The problem with using coarser, stiffer wool is that it's apt to be itchy. Shetland without guard hair would be good. I'd steer clear of the really soft yarns like merino and cormo. What's more important is to do the rib using smaller needles so it makes a stiffer fabric. But I suspect with wear, almost any wool is going to sag a bit. JMO.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

That's good news.
Are you saying that there are shetland wool sweaters, over one hundred years old, that haven't lost the better portion of their original shape and elasticity ?


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## Mrs. Homesteader (May 10, 2002)

Katherine in KY said:


> The problem with using coarser, stiffer wool is that it's apt to be itchy. Shetland without guard hair would be good. I'd steer clear of the really soft yarns like merino and cormo. What's more important is to do the rib using smaller needles so it makes a stiffer fabric. But I suspect with wear, almost any wool is going to sag a bit. JMO.


I agree with this.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Wool in general will fit the bill FR. Specific breeds will do better than others. I agree with Katherine 100%. Avoid the pure forms of Mohair, Alpaca, Cotton, Silk, these tend to drape and not have the "bounce back" "memory" wool does. Silk and Mohair have great lasting power, very strong and long wearing. Maybe a blend of a good wool and Silk and or Mohair.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Katherine brings up a point that I hadn't considered since I've began knitting....but one that has been a source of curiosity over my observant years...
I always wondered how the smaller-looking yarn--and tighter-knit-- of a sleeve cuff on a sweater could lead right into the larger, fluffier yarn of the softer-knit sleeve.
It was simply knit with two sizes of needles... and I suspect the tension just a little tighter in the cuff ribbing, to boot.
Thank you for solving that mystery for me, and setting me onto yet another tidbit of that ever-accumulating knowledge. 

As for mohair feel vs. wool's memory, I have no problem incorporating a bit more wool into my cuffs and ribbing, and knit the body of a garment with a higher percentage of the kinder/gentler fibers. 

Without looking for any sharp cuff to the back of my head....:lookout: is this an occasion to bring up whether or not acrylic or acrylic/wool blends, have any value for memory ? Or is acrylic automatically less elastic and durable than wool ?


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I'd say that acrylic/synthetic yarns tend not to have much in the way of memory, but they do build in everlasting life. Beware that not all Mohair is alike. Typically the older the animal the coarser the fibers. So typically first through second or third years of shearing are the softest. Kid mohair is by far superior for softness compared to other Mohairs. Mohair will also add extreme warmth to things. 100% mohair is seldom used except as outside wear or in really cold climates like here in northern MN. I own a 100% mohair sweater, the yarn is a very thin yarn and it was knit on probably size #10 or larger needles. Looking at it it is full of holes but it is very warm.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Forerunner said:


> Without looking for any sharp cuff to the back of my head....:lookout: is this an occasion to bring up whether or not acrylic or acrylic/wool blends, have any value for memory ?


:smack

:grumble:

The only thing acrylic has going for it (besides price) is washability and durability.

:sob: have we taught you nothing? :sob:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

eep:

Durability is worth _some_thing...... but, of course, if there is a wool out there to match or surpass acrylic....


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

FR what is this need to have things last 100'sof years? Is it not good enough that it last your lifetime?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Oh, no such need. Just curiously addressing points made in other posts.

_Todays_' question is..... 

Is there a drawback to rounding up all of one's odds and ends of a preferred color configuration (creams, light tans, off white and grays) and incorporating them creatively into one large garment, even though they be an assortment of weights, fiber contents, etc. ?

I'm a painfully resourceful chap, and just love making efficient use of every last scrap of whatever I'm working with. Now I've come to knitting and I find that it is no exception.

I did make use of several weights and fibers in my (now-finished ) legwarmers, and am delighted with the look and feel, but am curious about what one might expect for longevity in such a conglomerate creation.
(Ooops, here we are back at me wanting things to last forever. :run: )

Oh, and..... can anyone tell me decisively what fiber I have here ?










I had what looked to be two skeins of it. Each skein made it all the way through one leg warmer, with this bit of residual left over from the second (even though the second is just a _tad_ longer than the first...)
The stuff is delightfully soft and pleasant. I love the feel and color. I'd like to procure a_ lot_ more of it.........


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Now that gets straight to the point of my query. 

I don't suppose in this menagerie that I'm knitting up that such things would matter.
I can see how lacy and petite stuff might be so offended.

I guess we'll just have to call this next project experimental.....seeing as none of my previous works have been....

In what fibers have you experienced excess memory ?
In what fibers have you experienced a distinct lack of memory ?


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## Katherine in KY (May 11, 2002)

FR, so many questions 
If you're going to mix fibers together, you might think about knitting several different strands at once and try to make the final strand about the same thickness throughout. That way you won't have thin and thick areas of your knitting. You can always do a small swatch and wash it to make sure you don't have the kind of shrinkage WIHH mentioned.

In terms of memory, the downy fibers (Dorset, Southdown, etc.) tend to be more bouncy and resilient than the longwools. But any wool, when washed, will spring back to what it was when just spun (unless it's been mistreated someway). The fibers with a good drape, like mohair, alpaca, llama, etc. generally don't have much memory which is why they are often blended with wool to give them some elasticity. And a lot of people who knit with acrylic iron it to "kill" it to keep it stretched (especially for lace knitting).

"Are you saying that there are shetland wool sweaters, over one hundred years old, that haven't lost the better portion of their original shape and elasticity ?" I have seen some very old shetland sweaters that do look remarkably good for their age, although the cuffs may be a bit stretched and frayed. But to last as long as they have, they may well have been especially well cared for. Still, there's one in a museum in Shetland that went through WWII (I think in the Pacific theater) and looks amazing despite a few holes.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

This is progress. 

Any ideas on what kind of fiber I have in the pic, a few posts back....anyone ?


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## Katherine in KY (May 11, 2002)

No idea. We need more details--soft, crimpy, hairy, etc.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Very soft.
Definitely has a lofty halo.
Light gray.
The skein was shaped like the traditional longer style....not a little mohair bagel.
It's softer to the touch than most mohairs I've worked with....and that's soft.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

the tightness of the twist and how many plies will affect memory of wool(or any other fiber really. The looser the twist the less memory, because it's "flaccid". Though if you have too tight a twist it can get boardy.

Also a k2p2 or k3p3 rib will be more elastic(and stay that way) than a k1p1 rib. Again picking the right needle size for the rib will affect elasticity/memory, too tight or too loose is not as good as just right. Generally just right is two sizes less than the recomended needle size on the ball band.

Go ahead and mix fibers, I do all the time. You just can't throw it ever into the washing machine. Proper care and storage of handknits also affect how long they last. Dirt will break stuff down faster, and also it will be not as warm. Luckily most wool one would use for stuff you'd wear when it might get dirty can stand more cleanings without looking beat up. IE, hand washing, squeze out water and lay flat to dry.

Acrylic can be really helpful in extending the durability of stuff, I'm sure the ancients would have loved to have had acrylic yarn to incorporate into working garments. I make socks with one strand hardy wool and one strand with acrylic content run together, and they wear like nails.

"Excess" memory I imagine would get into yarns where the twist is messed up, ie too tight so it kinks, or something like chenille which in cheap chenille you can bet the twist IS off and it will worm horribly. and it's hard to find any chenille that won't worm over time--that's why they dont' make a lot of it.

If you want to use a lot of diferent weight yarns in a garment, just combine the skinny ones to match the thicker ones--pick a needle size to go with the majority of the weight yarn you have.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Thank you for the contribution WT.

I have found that part of the joy of quality fiber clothing is spending a little occasional time carefully hand-washing and properly drying/reshaping the garments....with special care given to those few especially endearing items, each having their own story to tell.

I don't see washing machines or dryers in the future for any creation that comes off my needles. But I do (anonymously, if possible) agree that acrylic is some tougher stuff, as a rule....
I'm really starting to appreciate my wool, though. 

As for needle vs. yarn sizes.... I had a typically odd variety of yarn go into the legwarmers..... used a size 11 by 16 inch for the ribbing and a 13 by 20 inch for the body, and I'm very pleased with the results.
I just thought I'd get a head's up from y'all concerning mixed fibers before I tie into this sweater of multiple personalities.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Fiber could be an angora blend or a kid mohair. I'd have to see a better more up close picture. Are you sure it is a natural fiber?

There is a book written for a knitting technique called Odd Ball knitting. There are also several well known knitters who make great use of scrap yarns, Kaffe Fassett omes to mind. I think he referes to his technique as mosaic knitting. You can Google both Odd Ball knitting and Kaffe Fassett to learn more.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

If that gray isn't natural fiber....... then I need a LOT more lessons in identifying.....

So, specifics..... drawing from the combined voice of experience here, 
how many strands of that delicate mohair yarn might one be safe knitting in alongside wool or wool blends ? That may be too vague....
Is there a percentage of mohair-to-wool that is generally acceptable for achieving that durability/wearability equilibrium ?

To whit, I'd like to incorporate three of four strands of the delicate mohair alongside of, say two heavier strands of wool and then a couple or three odd fibers of good color to accomplish my color scheme. Other than the obvious end weight of the garment, is this out of balance ?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

make a swatch, heh. no one can really say until one has made a swatch to feel the hand and drape of the knitting. Though if you use three or four strands of _laceweight_ mohair, with two strands of _dk/sport_ weight wool, plus a couple more strands of odd_ fingering_ weight--yes, that will end up being pretty heavy any way you slice it(and I used the less dense options to describe). 

but seriously, I would keep it light on the mohair. it will fluff out with time. And remember the heavier you get with the mass, the more effect gravity will have--you will need strong firm seams to help things stay in shape. ie if you knit this in the round you'll end up with a dress someday. There is just a tipping point where the fiber loses it's elasticity in the struggle with gravity--it's physics, and no amount of fudging will counter it.

I think someone else mentioned this, but those Nordic/anglo working sweaters, mits etc ended up being pretty dense fabric. Being splashed with seawater all day, getting wet and wrung out and wet again makes it full, if not eventually felt. That density helped with durability and windproofing. A fisherman is hard on his sweaters. On the other hand the sweaters of the snow people were fluffier(ie check out lopi), that airy fluff held the heat and breathed out the sweat from all that trekking about. But those sweaters wouldn't last long in a fishing boat with the loose spin to the yarn.

There's quite a bit of engineering that goes into making a sweater for a purpose.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ps, I can tell what a fiber is(pretty much) by smell and touch


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