# The toughest rifle



## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

In your experience, what is the toughest rifle you've ever owned and why do you say that?

I'm wanting to buy one for myself, and I am leaning towards a .22 simply because of the cost of ammo, but not closing my eyes to other possibilities. 

The hi-point carbines make big claims about being durable and I remember someone said something about dropping one off a roof once, but the smallest round they come in is 9mm.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

The FAL! 










This oneâs a DSA SA58 âParaâ. The FAL was adopted by 90 something countries, and still sees service today in some 3rd world chitholes! The receiver is machined from a solid billet, the bolt and bolt carrier are robust, and the gas is adjustable as it fouls.

Itâs not going to win any accuracy contests, but itâs a robust, well designed battle rifle.

Chuck


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Boy, that's purty, but pricey.


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## coup (Feb 28, 2007)

depends on wha you are going to do with it.....
if you want tough and durable,,,look for older single shot rifles....remington 510,,there is several older winchesters also.....

if you are looking for more firepower the ruger auto goes around $160. i think .
i had an old savage bolt and clip that shot great and was tough also...used gones are sometimes better than new,,,,of course i would want too shoot quite abit firs............t


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I take good care of all my many rifles, and they all still work. I also try not to throw them off a roof. Slings are good.


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## Joe Prepper (Jul 25, 2011)

FAL is my favorite overal rifle becasue it is tough as nails IMO, easy to breakdown and fired a .308 round(my fav). That said, If I had to bet my life on a rifle making it through a "torture test" I would send in the AK47. For what the non field combatant would likely put either through, they would likely fair the same.

Course YMMV


As for 22's, I have a marlin 60 thats been dragged around alot of woods by alot of people. Still driving tacks. 

Joe


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Chuck, what rifle would you choose in a .22 cal....? ...Topside


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

you may laugh but the timeing of your post is funny. In my house we have

Ar-15 ( 5.56x45) semi-expensive gun about 25-40 cents a shot with todays ammo prices ( about 16/17 cents a shot to reload) the wife ( suzyq121) loves this one

Ak-74 (5.45x39) Smaller more deadly but less accurate Russian cousin to the ar-15 decent price gun runs about 600-ammo in the 13-15 cent a round range

AK-47 (7.62x39) big older brother to the ak-74 shoots a 30cal round and packs a wallop (this is my go to gun for SHTF) ( 20 cents a round plinking 45 cents to $1 a round hunting)

A Remington 597 22LR. We all shot this rifle a ton, its good for garden pest, stray dog deterrent and just fun to shoot the spinning targets i place strategically around the yard) ( .03 cents to .20 cents a round)

And just added today a 1931 Tula re-arsenaled Mosin Nagant ( the poor mans SHTF rifle) cost 80-150 "new" in box ammo is relatively cheap in bulk russian cans and its sooo easy to shoot even a 13yr old can do it.
[YOUTUBE]6WRGeNNONfk&feature=plcp&context=C48e901aVDvjVQa1PpcFPCsLSWal6Pvy8Bpji5NGym_8JTYULuPQ0%3D[/YOUTUBE]


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

There are tow rifles that will take a beating and work well. One is a M-1 Grand the other one is a M 14. Both of them will fire with mud stuck in the barrel. I know this because I have seen it with my own eyes. Both will shoot with sand or mud all over them. If you want to hit something with them go ahead and it will shoot. 
If you want to buy something in a .22 try a Remington pump rifle. I have one setting a few feet away from now and it has been terribly misused but still fires good.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I'm not really sure what you are asking. Are you interested in a tough, durable rifle or a rifle that shoots a small, cheap cartridge?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I'll say the toughest would be the H&R Handy/Topper in .22 LR or any cartridge you choose. They are butt ugly but simple & indestructible mechanism.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I want something that I can sling over my shoulder in a hurry, that can get wet or muddy without affecting function or rusting in a week. Something I can run with that can take a beating. Something that won't fail if I drop or toss it.

I need something with a reasonable ammo cost, because I would like to practice with it. I cant afford 40 cents a shell. Just cant.
Then I also wonder about the availability of ammo? What happens when you run out? Storing 10,000 rounds is great, until you have to leave half behind. 
I find .22 attractive because the are tiny and ultra cheap. Yes, with a .22 you really have to be accurate, but they kill just the same. 
A pocket full of .22 goes a long way. A pocket full of 30-30's don't.


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## AR Aaron (May 26, 2010)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I want something that I can sling over my shoulder in a hurry, that can get wet or muddy without affecting function or rusting in a week. Something I can run with that can take a beating. Something that won't fail if I drop or toss it.
> 
> I need something with a reasonable ammo cost, because I would like to practice with it. I cant afford 40 cents a shell. Just cant.
> Then I also wonder about the availability of ammo? What happens when you run out? Storing 10,000 rounds is great, until you have to leave half behind.
> ...


Sounds like to me you have answered your own question so to speak. 
In reply to some of the other responses, a FAL is nice, but if you ever have to carry it outta the househould/homestead. Your not going to like it. Heavy. Maybe one with the stock options will lighten it, but the one I shot I would hate to have to carry it.

I have a ruger 10/22 and it has nice rate of fire, but accuracy stock outta the box hasn't impressed me. Know I have an old Winchester 22 bolt action with tube feed in the stock that is very accurate and has killed a lot of small game. Not speed loading, no clips, but wouldn't trade for the world.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

I think a 22 lr for every day and an SKS/AK-47 or 74 are right up your alley. or a rem 700 chambered in 243 or heck even a cheapo .410/12 gauge shotgun. I personally prefer semi-auto magazine fed weapons and battle proven on top of that. 

A 22lr will give you cheap practice/familiarity, put food on the table in SHTF and may deter 2 legged folks, but the bulk cheap 22lr ammo is the American version of Bulk china crap and can be finnicy, fail to feed, fail to eject, fail to load etc. even in a bolt 22lr i wouldn't trust my life to it.

A bolt action intermediate caliber .223/.243/30-30 will put big food on the table, drop 2 legged predators and keep the " spray and pray" ammo dump waste down.

That mosin nagant my daughter is shooting above cost 140 including tax etc ( i could have gotten it cheaper but its a small price to pay to keep my local gun shop in business) the ammo for it is about 20 cents a round, it will drop anything on North America, but is bolt action and has a 5 round capacity. 

I also suggest and yet am still lacking a decent crossbow/compund/long bow setup.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

bluetogreens said:


> And just added today a 1931 Tula re-arsenaled Mosin Nagant ( the poor mans SHTF rifle) cost 80-150 "new" in box ammo is relatively cheap in bulk russian cans and its sooo easy to shoot even a 13yr old can do it.
> [YOUTUBE]6WRGeNNONfk&feature=plcp&context=C48e901aVDvjVQa1PpcFPCsLSWal6Pvy8Bpji5NGym_8JTYULuPQ0%3D[/YOUTUBE]


 
Resting the foreend on a hard surface like the porch railing will make it shoot high.

It's more accurate to use a sand bag , or a rolled up towel .

One of my favorites rests is an old sock filled with rice


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Ruger makes a stainless 10/22 I think. If ammo cost is a factor then go with that. Assuming a 22 is going to get whatever job done that needs doing. Not much power in a 22


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Resting the foreend on a hard surface like the porch railing will make it shoot high.
> 
> It's more accurate to use a sand bag , or a rolled up towel .
> 
> One of my favorites rests is an old sock filled with rice


Yup I agree completely, I got this mosin home litterarly 30 minutes before the video was taken, i pullted the bolt, Hoppes'd the barrel, cleared as much cosmo as i could out of the chamber and fired a few rounds when the girl cam ebegging to shoot it, not going for accuracy int he video, just seeing if she could shoot it.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I had a .410 years ago (got stolen) and it was ok. Wouldn't mind having another.
I can't shoot a 12 gauge. I have, and its just too much.
I have a Winchester 30-30. Thats for the power. I like it.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Ross said:


> Ruger makes a stainless 10/22 I think. If ammo cost is a factor then go with that. Assuming a 22 is going to get whatever job done that needs doing. Not much power in a 22


Yes they make a stainless 10-22 and it would best for rusting.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I can't shoot a 12 gauge. I have, and its just too much.


You could shoot a 20 gauge with a little *training*, as well as a 12 Ga

The FIRST thing you have to decide is *WHAT do you need the gun to do?*

Then you pick a gun that's up to the task.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

In the context of the question-The AK47/AK74 series of rifles are the "toughest"-the amount of neglect and abuse these rifles can take is world renown....Why do you think the Combloc powers flooded 3rd world crapholes with these weapons....I've seen Klatchs that had'nt been cleaned in years,been dropped into mudholes,stored in trees,etc,etc.....slap a mag in and they go bang....
The best deal out there right now is the Polish Tantal AK74 for 350-400$,milsurp ammo is 220-250 for a cs of 2160 rds No recoil-3-4" at 100yds(more than good enough for gov't work) and a very unstable bullet that causes nasty wounds.....
For a "cheap" rifle,my fav is the good old Mosin...cheap ammo..accurate enough to get you a "higher quality" weapon....

ANYONE can shoot a 12ga-use low recoil rds-don't "death grip" hold it....just let it float with a good shoulder weld.My wife is disabled with severe diabetic neuropathy and can shoot a 12ga-she can't rack slide....so I bought her a Mossberg 20ga semi with mag extension.....


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

I do not know why many are trying to push you to some crap AK style junk. They seem to think you are going to fight WWIII. You have stated you have a 30-30 and it has the same power as a 7.62x39 round. Every aminal in North America has been killed with a 30-30. In a bad shtf most of the big game will be gone shortly. Without knowing all of what you want or need I would tell you to go with a 10-22 Ruger. Ammo is cheap even Stingers are cheap compared to any centerfire round. Rugers seem to work even with the cheap junk ammo. They will shoot good enough to killsmall game at 50 yards so what more could you want? There are good 30 round mags to be had for the 10-22. With more info I may go with something different but with what I know of your needs and wants I believe a 10-22 will cover you.
Steve


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I want something that I can sling over my shoulder in a hurry, that can get wet or muddy without affecting function or rusting in a week. Something I can run with that can take a beating. Something that won't fail if I drop or toss it.
> 
> I need something with a reasonable ammo cost, because I would like to practice with it. I cant afford 40 cents a shell. Just cant.
> Then I also wonder about the availability of ammo? What happens when you run out? Storing 10,000 rounds is great, until you have to leave half behind.
> ...


Okay, I now understand. Most of the answers provded so far offer good advice regarding a a tough, durable rifle; however, many of these recommendations do meet your specification for a rifle that uses inexpensive ammo.

Since it sounds like you're stuck on .22 caliber, I'd recommend a bolt action .22 rifle made by any of the major US manufacturers. There isn't much that can go wrong with a bolt action compared to a semi-auto, lever or pump rifle. In addition a bolt-action uses less parts and is much easier to disassemble and clean than these other rifle platforms. If you don't want it to rust qucikly, make sure you get one in stainless steel.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

bluetogreens said:


> you may laugh but the timeing of your post is funny. In my house we have
> 
> Ar-15 ( 5.56x45) semi-expensive gun about 25-40 cents a shot with todays ammo prices ( about 16/17 cents a shot to reload) the wife ( suzyq121) loves this one
> 
> ...


"That was fun!! Can I shoot again?" You've created a monster!!


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

topside1 said:


> Chuck, what rifle would you choose in a .22 cal....? ...Topside


Topside,

Sorry, I didnât catch the .22 criteria!

Iâve got three .22 rifles, my hands down favorite for âtoughâ is a Ruger 77/22 that Iâve owned since 1990. I mounted a Leupold compact 3x9X and use it for small game and general rifle practice. IMHO, most .22s are âtoughâ enough as long as theyâre maintained and not abused.

Hereâs another possible solution, although not cheap:










This is my Colt LE6920 with a Spikes Tactical .22LR conversion unit. It makes for cheap practice and is accurate enough for small game at 25 yards or so. I use it quite a bit because the little .22LR wonât tear up my armor plate targets at CQB distances. I also bought a S&W MP15-22 which I setup like my Colt and use for drills.

AR Aaron, 

Youâre right on the FAL weight, mine has a lightweight lower, but it still weighs in at about 12lb loaded with optic. Which is right about where most of the 7.62/.308 military rifles weigh in at. If I were going anywhere a great distance on foot, the FAL is staying put and I'll take the Colt and .22 conversion. 

Chuck.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

We found a gun show in the nearby town next weekend, so we will be going with the aim to walk away with something. I figure thats my best chance to really look at a variety and find what I want.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey,
Most bolt guns will prove tougher, my favorite 22 is a mdl 42b Mossberg wich is a full stock bolt action built just after the second world war on a target reciver and will still put ten rounds into a fuzzy 25 caliber hole at 50 feet and bring back the limit on tree rats everytime. Ugly, cheap wood stock and a 3/4 inch scope that still works. I also bought a mdl 44 Mossberg very similar just slightly less robust. Off course neither of theas have ever gone over night with out being cleaned as long as I've owned them. and they both have leather military slings I belive were inteneded for M1 Garands.
Dutch
Now if you want to go with semiauto modern battle rifles its tough to beat HK's mdl 91's shot a polybore vertion at Soilder of Fortune three gun shoot in 82 and was the only 1 of two guys in the top twenty with an unmodified battle rifle (IE not a target gun that looked like an AR15) My buddy shot in the top ten with his with standard rifleing heck of a shot with a battle trigger!


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Thanks Chuck, I was hoping that you would mention the Colt. My dad has this version and loves it....Lonely take a look at these....Topside


Colt M4 Carbine | .22 Tactical Rimfire Long Rifle | Look & Feel of an M4 .22


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I want something that I can sling over my shoulder in a hurry, that can get wet or muddy without affecting function or rusting in a week. Something I can run with that can take a beating. Something that won't fail if I drop or toss it.
> 
> I need something with a reasonable ammo cost, because I would like to practice with it. I cant afford 40 cents a shell. Just cant.
> Then I also wonder about the availability of ammo? What happens when you run out? Storing 10,000 rounds is great, until you have to leave half behind.
> ...


i see you want what many countries refer to as a peasant rifle.

something you can train a person with 2nd grade intellect to use , and do the minimum to keep it working 

a mosin nargant , AK , or most WWI or WWII bolt action rifles , or for a simple difficult to mess up pistol a glock is the ticket part of why many police swear by them is because they just work with very little maintenance on their part

as for 22lr that fit this bill most bolt guns to well , savage , mossberg come to mind 

i would ask that you don't abuse your gun , but well used and easy to take care of i can understand 

a savage bolt would likely serve you well not exactly a peasant gun but your a bit smarter than that any way , I actually very much dislike the term peasant but i suppose that i would have come from long lines of peasant stock , however we were much smarter than we let on.

22lr version
Savage 27065 Mark II-F Bolt Rifle 22LR $160.00 SHIPS FREE
22 mag might be a good idea it compromises cost of ammo for power Savage-Stevens 91300 305 22WMR $190.00 SHIPS FREE

if you think you want an auto loader the marlin model 60 is a tube fed gun that holds up well and has no magazine to loose. the stainless version of any of these would be good if your planning on heavy use and light maintenance

another option is the N.E.F break action guns , they are all simple and easy to care for and offer 22 thru larger calibers 

the thing is sometimes a 22 just isn't enough


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I like the Henry lever action in 22 .


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Tough and cheap, with cheap ammo? Does it need to be semi-auto? If not I think you want a Mosin Nagant. I have a few and they are indestructible, and considering I paid under $100 a piece for em who cares if they do break...lol. 

Ammo can be had pretty cheap if you aren't afraid of some old com-bloc surplus. Just make sure to clean it after you shoot. Last I checked 880 round went for under $200, but I haven't checked in a long while. That's still more expensive than .22 ammo being it's around 20 cents a round. But it's a big round and will take bear (ask how I know) and elephant (don't ask me) with as little trouble as can be expected.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Oh yeah, if you aren't too concerned with initial price I'd go with a PSL Dragonav knockoff. Fires the same big cheap round as the Mosin, but it's semi-auto with detachable mags instead of the old clip. They don't bang when you shoot em, they roar like a ----ed dragon! FUN and cool.


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

So it sounds like 22 of some flavor.
What for ammo
plinking
varmits
and other
or are they all the same??
interesting reading
steve


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

If you want a 22 that is super reliable then stay away from semi auto's. My 10/22 RRR can be picky about ammo and I would bet it would not be very reliable.

What about stepping up a little to a .22 mag? Ammo is more than a .22 lr but the power is much better. You should be able to get 50 rounds of .22 mag for about 10.00

If you want a ww111 gun then go with the ak47


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Years ago, you could get hold of a SMLE desert carbine pretty cheap. I had a couple. But younger son talked me out of one, maybe both of them, IIRC. 
Not a real heavy rifle and very handy. They are a very fast bolt action rifle. The ammo was cheap & easy to get, for them too.ETA... They kicked pretty heavy though.
I haven't seen many of them lately. But, I don't get out to Gun Shows as often now, either.
I have an SKS carbine now, that's right handy. Lighter than the SMLE. Lighter round too.
They are still pretty cheap & easy to find.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I guess if I was looking for a durable all-weather .22 I'd find a quality bolt action in stainless and a plastic stock.
Or a single shot.
We have a Rossi single shot that came with 3 barrels, .22, .223 and .410 that's about as versatile as you can get.
If it was me personally headed out into the Apocalypse, I'd grab an AK-47 just for the sheer durability and crazy quantities of ammo out there.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Well, we went to Shooters Supply and looked at some today.
Hated the Marlin 60. Felt all wrong.
The Ruger 10/22 I liked, but it had no sight.
They did not have a bolt action one.
I looked at a Colt M4, and both a Remington and a S&W in the same style, the Remington was VERY heavy. All metal except the butt. The S&W was the lightest, and nearly all plastic. The Colt I liked the best, all metal except the butt and the grip, but it was heavier than I wanted. 
There were quite a few used bolt action that were too heavy, or way too long. 
I did find a Remington that was very similar to the Ruger 10/22. It was all plastic except the barrel. That was probably the one that I liked the best as far as how it felt in my hands. The right weight, the right length, but semi-auto.

Except they had a Savage that I really liked, but it was a .17. Never heard of it. If it was a .22 I would have bought it. It had a stainless barrel.

So, I didn't buy one, but I have better idea of what is what, and an idea of what the store prices are. Maybe I will find a better selection at the gun show next weekend. 

On a positive note, I finally found a holster for my .380 that I can live with. It's only slightly annoying and it doesn't hurt. Super important, since I am small and I can't tolerate things that touch, push or knock on my bone points, hips, ribs, etc..


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> In your experience, what is the toughest rifle you've ever owned and why do you say that?
> 
> I'm wanting to buy one for myself, and I am leaning towards a .22 simply because of the cost of ammo, but not closing my eyes to other possibilities.
> 
> The hi-point carbines make big claims about being durable and I remember someone said something about dropping one off a roof once, but the smallest round they come in is 9mm.


H&R Topper
I've a 30-30 model. 
Growing up I had a friend who had one of the same. It was a sweet shooting rifle. He used to carry it on the tractor while working the fields. One day he was plowing and lost his rifle. He had plowed it under. Years later, he had a son now, he plowed it back up. After a thorough cleaning, he tested it and it shot fine. Its been in use ever since. 
When I move to my property in WV I was offered one for $85, and I snatched it up. I have others, but I am sure that it is the toughest. I call it my hammer. 



Google Image Result for http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/55/55047.jpg


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I have a Winchester 94 30-30 and I really like it. I bought it used and dinged up and I've given it the work through. It spent a winter on the floor board of my truck one year. I don't know how many times I've laid it on the ground or against a tree. I've dropped it several times. It's been wet and towel dried. I've shot it a lot and it works just fine. 

That was the first one I ever bought by myself, so many years ago. I walked into a gun shop full of men, all alone and I looked at rifles and pretended I wasn't totally ignorant while they stared at me. I bought it because it was small and the only one under 150$. I don't regret it and I'll never let it go. Tough gun that one.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ross said:


> Ruger makes a stainless 10/22 I think. If ammo cost is a factor then go with that. Assuming a 22 is going to get whatever job done that needs doing. Not much power in a 22


I picked one of those up a couple years ago, with a longer than usual barrel. I am extremely disappointed.......... imho, stainless shouldn't rust... my other stainless firearms never rust... my stainless 10-22 rusted while sitting in the house. Yes, it does get humid, but rusting in the house... ouch! Do love my pair of 10-22's, rust or not. My Ruger MkII pistol is 28 years old, I've shot tens of thousands of rounds thru it, and never cleaned it... oil it up now and then, but never stripped it down and cleaned all the parts. That tells me it's a tough little bugger. It gets used EVERY day!
*
I read lots of articles about AK's working no matter what, mud and dirt didn't kill em... so I have a few. AR's are more accurate, so have them too. Want/need a .308, but I want accuracy (I've dated the FAL and the Spanish Lady, but I can't commit), so looking at an AR-10 or an M1A1.

You can shoot a thousands of rounds out of a 22lr, for the same price as a couple of 20 rd boxes, in a larger caliber weapon... I find I can shoot the 22 and take care of most homestead 'issues'... whereas blasting away with a large caliber weapon at something 3' away just doesn't make much sense. For a main battle weapon, yeah, go for it... for a rat, snake, ****, possum, general varmint round, nothing beats a 22.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> .
> I have a Winchester 30-30. Thats for the power. I like it.


you already have the do everything rifle , you just need the cartridges for it 

30-30 has a long necked cartridge it will will take bullets from 93 to 200 gr

light little 100ish grain bullets can be sent out into the 2700fps range 
but most everything can go up to about 2000 fps even the bog 190gr bullets 

but none of it has to , they can be loaded to 1200-1500 fps for a very low recoil , almost 22 like recoil but still sending some serious power down range 

problem is for as cheap as i can make them , no one sells much in this line , accept cowboy action rounds 

30-30 Winchester Ammo-Ultramax Ammunition 30-30 Winchester 165 Grain Lead Flat Nose Ammo

but they seem to get a mint for them 

the ones i make are literally 10-12 cents each , they are so low pressure that the brass lasts for reload after reload 

if your interested in reloading a hand press a set of dies and you could be in the business of reloading for your gun. with a hand press you can carry your reloading with you , or just get it out of the closet and make up a hundred rounds once a year a small c-press can be mounted to a board and clamped to the dining room table for occasional reloading also 

200 dollars goes a long way toward ammo for that 30-30 or even a reloading setup 

but most every one should also have a 22 , so go stainless with a stainless bolt action for rugged and dependable , or what every you happen into at a good deal , hard to go wrong with an American bolt 22 just keep it wiped down with oil

this would be a good choice Marlin Model 981TS

or in 22 mag Marlin Model 983S


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

We do have the reloading stuff you mention. We were talking about it yesterday. DH says its been a long time since he done it. We also have a different thing to reload 12 gauge. He has a 30-30 die set and we bought one for the 9mm yesterday also. I told him he needs to teach me to do it, because you are right. Can't afford to shoot the 30-30 all that much.

But you don't reload .22. They are ultra cheap, but what happens when there are no more? Not that I think that would happen for a long time, but who knows? Maybe then they wouldn't be worth more than to beat somebody with?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

22 is really no different than primers , when your out your out 

then maybe you revert to the flint lock if you have the black 

bottom line is you stock up on everything you can , and only do recreational shooting while supplies are easy to replenish

once , something happens that you can't get powder and primer , or 22. then they are all like gold and their value is assessed based on how great the need to use them

smokeless powder stores for a good long time if it is stored right , guys are still shooting WWII surplus powder 60 years later cool, dark and dry is the way to store it 

black as in actual black powder not substitutes last even longer , good news is it can still be had for 10 dollars a pound bad new is it is getting harder and harder to find anyone who has it , but fireworks are your saving grace , fireworks dealers the ones that do fireworks shows professionally and build their own fireworks can and do sell black powder for rifles 3fg is the way to go unless your into real big bore guns


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

What's everyones opinion of the Ruger Ranch rifle (mini 14). Being .223 it should be relatively cheap to shoot and have plenty of killing power. 

Don't have one so would only guess on reliability and accuracy. I am considuring getting one though.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wy_white_wolf said:


> What's everyones opinion of the Ruger Ranch rifle (mini 14). Being .223 it should be relatively cheap to shoot and have plenty of killing power.
> 
> Don't have one so would only guess on reliability and accuracy. I am considuring getting one though.


While you might not make dime size groups at 200 yards, they'll hit a coyote pretty easy.
I've got an older Mini-14 and I love it.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

mini 14 fine gun , that took a real price hike with the last presidential election and never cam back down 

used to be you could buy one at walmart for 425 dollars then the buying frenzy before the election and they jumped to 600 to 650

for that price they loose their niche , they were a solid rifle , and would accept 20 and 30 round mags 
but the mags are 2x the price of AR15 mags and a base AR can be had for just about the same money now , and after you buy 6 mags you will be ahead of the game or even

don't get me wrong the mini is a great gun , if you find one for 3-4 hundred grab it up.

it is just that the hardware availability for the AR15 is so great that a few dollars more up front gives you a ton of options and available parts and even parts at a decent price

and all the parts use the same size as long as they are mil spec which most are.


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

Take a look at 243 6mm (requires buying a 243 to upgrade the barrel to a 243 6mm) and keep and eye on 260 (not ideal for now as its fairly new ) . I like the idea of being able to switch barrel out for what game i'm hunting . The 243 6mm cover the lower end of game ( coyote , hogs , small deer ) and the 260 goes from large deer to elk . You can swap out the barrel on 243 for the 243 6mm . The 260 allows to use either 308 barrel or 260 . Barrel life is better on the 260 than the 308 (very accurate ). Shoulder friendly . I'm staying away from 260 for now, as the cost and selection of mfg. of ammo is not good . 260 is a good reloader ammo for now . I like the .243 family of guns .


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Wintergrower_OH said:


> Take a look at 243 6mm (requires buying a 243 to upgrade the barrel to a 243 6mm) and keep and eye on 260 (not ideal for now as its fairly new ) . I like the idea of being able to switch barrel out for what game i'm hunting . The 243 6mm cover the lower end of game ( coyote , hogs , small deer ) and the 260 goes from large deer to elk . You can swap out the barrel on 243 for the 243 6mm . The 260 allows to use either 308 barrel or 260 . Barrel life is better on the 260 than the 308 (very accurate ). Shoulder friendly . I'm staying away from 260 for now, as the cost and selection of mfg. of ammo is not good . 260 is a good reloader ammo for now . I like the .243 family of guns .


Iâll admit Iâm confused, what is a .243 6mm? Do you mean a .243Win, or a 6mm Rem, or one of the .243/6mm based wildcats?

In theory the barrel life âshouldâ be longer on the .308 due to the expansion ratio and the .260 firing lighter bullets at higher velocity. Iâve read as much as 1000-2000 rounds longer with the .308 Vs .260.

While the .260 is one of the newer cartridges, itâs really catching on with the LR tactical shooting crowd as it has a trajectory/wind drift thatâs close to the .300Win Mag without the recoil.

I'm looking at having a .260 Rem put together for a LR raifle. 

Chuck


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Well, we went to Shooters Supply and looked at some today...
> The Ruger 10/22 I liked, but it had no sight.
> No sight? None at all, or no scope? Sights are simple to change or add in most cases. They also come with a folding rear sight, to get it out of the way of a scope if one is used. Is it posible it was simply folded down?
> 
> ...



I think getting started in reloading your 30-30 is a good plan. It's plenty of gun for larger and smaller critters. I load a round ball load that's great for snakes, grouse, bunnies etc, and makes about as much noise as a 22, and cost is pretty meager. I buy the Hornady .310" or .315" round balls, lube them with Lee liquid alox lube, and load with 3 grains of Unique powder. I use a tiny bit of dacron pillow stuffing over the powder, pushed in with an unsharpened pencil. I flair the case mouth with a Lyman "M" die, then very lightly crimp it to hold the ball in place. It makes the powder burn more consistantly. You can get a bullet mould and cast your own round balls or regular style bullets, the cost of loading goes way down at that point also, very comparable to 22's when using light loads with your cast bullets. Finding a 22 rifle you like is also a good idea. I'm sure there are other shops, or just wait til you see what you really want. Gun shows can be good palces to find stuff, especially decent used stuff, tho prices can be a bit optimistic at times. Don't be afraid to make offers if you see something you like. There are scads of older bolt action 22's floating around needing good homes. A friend was on a 22 rifle binge for a while, he ended up buying about 20 of them over a couple years. I don't think he paid over $200 for any of them, some much less, including old Winchesters and Remingtons.

I'm not much of an "end of the worlder" type, but if you're worried about running out of 22 shells, just start buying them now and then until you have a comfortable amount. I used to buy a 500 rd box every couple months when I went in wal-mart, then stopped when I realized I had several years worth of serious recreational shooting ahead. Same with primers, they don't really cost that much. It's simple to buy some ahead.


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

chuck . The 243 6mm is a wildcat (243 family of bullets ) . The 260 would be my choice for reloading . But not for everyday hunting around here . : ( . I need to get educated on the 6mm bullets and barrel twist and fur friendly . Just started to read about 6mm super LR . Coyote have peak my interest in rifle caliber i never would of thought of using 10 years ago. 
The 260 has a wider selection of game that its capable of killing . The 308 (i believe this is the 243 family ) would be an over kill and not as wide of game selection that i could hunt .

You can't really get the perfect weight rifle right off the shelf . Check cabelas and gander mt used rifles . The barrel is where most of the weight is in rifle . The cost of new lighter barrel isn't that bad . The rifle barrel twist and length is important factor in how the rifle performs . The ability to get quality brass for what ever gun you get is important. Some caliber of bullets the quality of brass is a issue . If weight is a problem look into a shooting stick or some other aid to help offset the weight .


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Wintergrower_OH said:


> chuck . The 243 6mm is a wildcat (243 family of bullets ) .


Please explain further. I'm a wildcatter from way back and have loaded for over 30 wildcats and improved cartridges. Tell me what the 243 6mm is. You can go into great detail and I'll appreciate it. Is it an Ackley Improved cartridge, or a longer neck, or different shoulder or neck length? 

A .243 uses bullets of 0.243" diameter. A 6mm, on the other hand, also uses bullets of 0.243" diameter. So I really want to know what this cartridge is and why it is an improvement. If it shows enough of an advantage, I'll probably end up building one and trying it.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Haven't seen a referal for an old Enfield. Even tho in .303 and .308, recoil is minimal due to the weight, ammo is relatively inexpensive (last time I bought that is), and danged near indestructable (mine are military leftovers, over 60 years old, neglected and abused before I got them, and have yet to have an issue with any of them).
Detachable magazines and a caliber suitable for just about anything except maybe a rino. Usually under 200 bucks (used to be $70, but times have changed).
Just my $0.02

Matt


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Roadking said:


> Haven't seen a referal for an old Enfield. Even tho in .303 and .308, recoil is minimal due to the weight, ammo is relatively inexpensive (last time I bought that is), and danged near indestructable (mine are military leftovers, over 60 years old, neglected and abused before I got them, and have yet to have an issue with any of them).
> Detachable magazines and a caliber suitable for just about anything except maybe a rino. Usually under 200 bucks (used to be $70, but times have changed).
> Just my $0.02
> 
> Matt


she already has a 30-30 she isn't lacking in a tough 30 cal that fits her , and was looking for cheap ammo 

303 used to be inexpensive to shoot but isn't any more 

the 303 is a great gun but also arn't as readily available as they used to be 


I agree that if you have the dies , relaoding 30-30 is a great idea , i cast my own the Lee c309-170rf can be had for 20-25 dollars and is a fine mold for 30-30 , if your going to load lead into a cartridge you will want a lee universal case expanding die or a lyman m die to bell the case mouth a bit before bullet seating as it prevents lead shaving 
round ball loads are also a good way to get started loading reduced loads

some powders are less position sensitive , and wouldn't need the filler


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

Ed . This will be a quick reply as i'm still learning . The 6mm part is little tricky to explain as gets into hand loading (neck , wears out barrel , etc ) . here a link .243/6mm Cartridges . I was looking at the 243 AI , but the negatives made me look else where (in choosing the way i want to go and all the article i read ) . I like what i read on the super LR Super LR . But it would require me to reload ( someday i will really get into this ) and fact its a custom load . I need to find out if i need to go the 243 rifle route and add barrel that been design for the 243.6mm or go with a 308 rifle to add a barrel for the 260 or Super LR . If i go the custom route and things get tough on finding the powders , etc i'm not sure if i want to go this route . Will have to ask around about this .


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Chuck R. said:


> The FAL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have one too and it is tough


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Ed Norman said:


> Please explain further. I'm a wildcatter from way back and have loaded for over 30 wildcats and improved cartridges. Tell me what the 243 6mm is. You can go into great detail and I'll appreciate it. Is it an Ackley Improved cartridge, or a longer neck, or different shoulder or neck length?
> 
> A .243 uses bullets of 0.243" diameter. A 6mm, on the other hand, also uses bullets of 0.243" diameter. So I really want to know what this cartridge is and why it is an improvement. If it shows enough of an advantage, I'll probably end up building one and trying it.


I was wondering the same thing; I actually thought there might be something called a .243/6mm, maybe something like a .243 with modified shoulder angle to 6mm Rem specs, maybe a .243 with a longer case neck.

Iâve owned a couple wildcats, and other than forming brass and some initial load work, I donât see them as that big of an issue for the average reloader as long as itâs not some serious case forming. The one detriment I can think of is not being able to buy ammo in a pinch. I solve that by packing a few rounds in different bags when I travel to hunt. 

I am, or was, a big fan of the 6mm Rem, as it used to be my favorite woodchuck caliber when I lived back East. I always liked it better than the .243 because of the slightly longer case neck and the slightly better ballistics. While my friends went with hot .22s I liked the 6mm because it bucked the wind better, and could be used for deer. 

The 6mm Super LR looks like an attempt to fix the short neck on the .243 and improving ballistics by increasing the shoulder angle, while losing a little capacity. They probably run it a little hotter than a .243 which allows higher MVs. Also it looks like the reamer is cut with a longer throat to seat the longer bullets out to increase capacity and make maximum use of the magazine length. Looks like a pretty cool cartridge.

Actually, the .243, .260, 7mm08, .358 etc. etc are part of the .308 family based on the chicken Vs egg of which came 1st. Itâs kind of the 25-06, .270, and .338-06 .35Whelen belonging to the 30-06 family. 

Chuck


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

_The 6mm Super LR looks like an attempt to fix the short neck on the .243 and improving ballistics by increasing the shoulder angle, while losing a little capacity. They probably run it a little hotter than a .243 which allows higher MVs. Also it looks like the reamer is cut with a longer throat to seat the longer bullets out to increase capacity and make maximum use of the magazine length. Looks like a pretty cool cartridge._

Chuck . So do i buy a 243 and a new barrel or buy a 308 and a new barrel to use the 6mm super LR ? This why knowing history of bullet and who came out with it is important.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Wintergrower_OH said:


> _The 6mm Super LR looks like an attempt to fix the short neck on the .243 and improving ballistics by increasing the shoulder angle, while losing a little capacity. They probably run it a little hotter than a .243 which allows higher MVs. Also it looks like the reamer is cut with a longer throat to seat the longer bullets out to increase capacity and make maximum use of the magazine length. Looks like a pretty cool cartridge._
> 
> Chuck . So do i buy a 243 and a new barrel or buy a 308 and a new barrel to use the 6mm super LR ? This why knowing history of bullet and who came out with it is important.


Either really! Since you're going to replace the barrel and the case head is the same. 

I&#8217;d send your action to a smith that has this reamer or will rent it, and have him chamber the barrel of your contour/ twist choice and mate it to your action. 

Chuck


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks . Question on the 6mm Super LR . From the article it doesn't appear that you can go down to 75 grain bullet or lower ?


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Wintergrower_OH said:


> Thanks . Question on the 6mm Super LR . From the article it doesn't appear that you can go down to 75 grain bullet or lower ?


Thereâs probably no reason why you can use the lighter bulletsâ¦â¦safely. The issue will be that this reamer and most likely barrel twist are optimized for the longer bullets at a greater overall length.

So the shorter/lighter bullets will most likely be:

1. Overstabilized, which hurts accuracy some.
2. Seated short in relationship to the throat, which means the bullet will have to jump some before it hits the throat due to the freebore.

Neither condition make it unsafe, they just reduce accuracy somewhat with shorter/lighter bullets. This cartridge/chamber looks to be designed for a specific purpose, which is to get long range accuracy/wind drift out of a 6mm bore. Theyâre using a 1:7 twist rate to stabilize bullets up to 115 grain, whereas a standard 6mm/.243 is a 1:9 twist for up to around 105 grain bullets. Theyâ also got a somewhat long throat allowing the longer bullets to be seated out further. 

You really have to ask yourself what do you want the rife for? 

IF I were putting something like this together it would be a heavy barreled tactical/varmint rifle for midrange and occasional LR shooting. But again IF it were me, Iâd build a .260 and go with a slightly heavier bullet. 

Chuck


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

What do you consider midrange ? I have to be really careful here in ohio . I would say most shots would be 100 to 650 yds . I fell in love with the 260 , but thought it would be to much for ohio or coyotes .


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

here is some info from 6mm SUPER LR web page : build:

Berger 115 VLD (Lot #1422) 2.866" OAL (A little back in case)
Berger 108 gr BT (Lot #1539) 2.757" OAL (At jct of neck and shoulder)
Berger 105 gr VLD (Lot #1415) 2.850" OAL (Forward in neck a little but very good)
Berger 100 gr BT (Lot #1945) 2.753" OAL (Ideal OAL)
*Berger 80 gr Flat Base (Lot #800) 2.660" OAL (Ideal OAL)
Berger 70 gr Flat Base (Lot #487) 2.665" OAL (Forward in neck a bit but good) .*


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Wintergrower_OH said:


> here is some info from 6mm SUPER LR web page : build:
> 
> Berger 115 VLD (Lot #1422) 2.866" OAL (A little back in case)
> Berger 108 gr BT (Lot #1539) 2.757" OAL (At jct of neck and shoulder)
> ...


The bold OALs are kind of illustrating what Iâm talking about; theyâre about .10 shorter than the longer/heavier bullets. Not a serious issue, just not optimum. 

Mid- range is about the distance youâre talking about 300-600 yards, a normal mid-range match is at 600 yards. 

Chuck


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## Wintergrower_OH (Sep 21, 2010)

Ok the search goes on . Need to find the best 260 grain bullet for mid range to close range coyote hunting . The 243.06 is still an option . Thanks . You save me allot of time . Need to find a source of reload info on the 260.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

In the OP, .22 was your first choice. And you want rugged.

Have you seen the Henry AR-7 Survival rifle? Way on the low end of power but can be carried easily (only 3.5 lbs) and it is weatherproof when stored. 8 round semi.

Henry Repeating Arms | Fine Rifles Made in America and Priced Right


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

The AR-7's are ok as a stow away rifle, but many folks find they arent all that reliable. Not a huge issue in a small game getter, but annoying if you plan to shoot it much. Some aren't all the accurate, and the sights are so-so at best. I've had a couple of them, I wasn't overly impressed.

Of all the so-called "survival" guns I've seen, I'd rather have a good standard bolt action or lever action 22 or a target quality 22 pistol for any use, especially actual hunting.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

logbuilder said:


> ...Have you seen the Henry AR-7 Survival rifle?...


I have seen them several times, and IMHO, they are junk. Lightweight? Yes. Floatable? Yes. Packable? Yes. Rugged? NO WAY! 

The rifle feels like and is built like a toy gun. I've seen BB guns that are more rugged then the Henry Survival rifle.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

ak-47....


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Many seem enamored of various self loadng rifles, the ak in particular. I can't say I share the same viewpoint. They are fine, durable rifles, but nowhere near the level as a Mauser as regards shear durablity and toughness, and functional reliablity in any conditions. I've seen various ak's fail to function, (and heard of many from vets) and not in mudhole conditions. They are very good for a self loader, but a manually operated Mauser bolt gun beats them.


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## wildcat6 (Apr 5, 2011)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> i see you want what many countries refer to as a peasant rifle.
> 
> something you can train a person with 2nd grade intellect to use , and do the minimum to keep it working
> 
> ...


I have been thinking about picking up one of those Mosin-Nagants but how in the world do you get all of that cosmoline off?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

wildcat6 said:


> I have been thinking about picking up one of those Mosin-Nagants but how in the world do you get all of that cosmoline off?


A bucket of gasoline and a stiff brush.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> A bucket of gasoline and a stiff brush.


Now CF...you know only noncoms are allowed to do that..not enlisted


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wildcat6 said:


> I have been thinking about picking up one of those Mosin-Nagants but how in the world do you get all of that cosmoline off?


I used mineral spirits.
I have a piece of PVC big enough to put the barreled action in, capped on one end.
I put the barrel in and fill it with mineral spirits, then cap it and let it soak over night.
I do the same to the smaller parts in a coffee can.
The wood is the hard part to clean, use heat to draw the cosmo out.


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