# Another stupid road rage killing



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

What a waste

http://www.freep.com/article/201409...leged-road-rage-fatal-shooting-genoa-township


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

It's always a shame some people can't control their anger. Confronting the older guy was definitely a bad move. It proves what I've always heard, old guys won't fight you - they'll kill you.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

A shame that someone dies in road rage. Might be a good time to get a dashcam. That could be the only witness there is.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I can't imagine ever getting out of your vehicle to approach someone else's. That doesn't seem like a situation that would ever end well. Of course bullets pass through cars, but still.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Another obvious case of a mans mouth overloading his backside. The male ego is a marvelous thing to behold.... bet he dont do that again anytime soon.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

The area is horrible to drive. Used to be a livestock auction right there. Now, it's nothing but traffic.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

That is sad and horrible.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

7thswan said:


> The area is horrible to drive. Used to be a livestock auction right there. Now, it's nothing but traffic.


Well, they way I read the article there will be two less drivers in that area for a while.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

The dead guy shouldn't have approached the shooter the way he did, but from what I've heard, I'm not convinced the shooter was justified either.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Well, they way I read the article there will be two less drivers in that area for a while.


I was once rear ended right in the exact spot. Truck would have run right over the top of me if I hadn't seen him comeing in my rearview and shifted and took off. People driveing too aggressivly on a 4 lane with constant left and right turners. Gotta let those rage drivers roll off your back like water on a duck.

I'm still upset at the 2 people that died here a week back. Drunk 17 yr old drove right thru a stop and killed himself and 29 yr old Father. The kid was drinking because he was upset about his drunk father dieing in an accident. The cops say they are going to patrol this road more, it's common arround here for youngsters to blow stop signs. So Sad.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

A bit more info, sounds like the driver was being a complete jerk. Still a bad idea to get out and confront him.

http://www.livingstondaily.com/stor...tody-following-shooting-grand-river/14988925/


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

We have only heard one side and even that has some mud and weasel words, It has me wondering.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> We have only heard one side and even that has some mud and weasel words, It has me wondering.


IDK, there are a ton of witnesses, it's a very busy area, especially at that time of the day.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

The story about the way the shooter was driving all comes from the attorney of the dead man's wife so it's probably embellished, but there has to be some truth to it...otherwise, no reason to confront him. I understand the impulse to confront a maniac driver, but these days it's just asking to be shot. Somebody who drives with no regard for other people's lives isn't likely to respond well to being called out on it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

People imagine things all the time.
The key thing in the woman's statement to me was the "almost"
"He ALMOST cut us off"
Means he DIDN'T cut them off he just offended them, look at it in that light and the man defending himself with a gun becomes much more of a possibility.
WE would have to hear from a lot of witness to begin to get close to unbiased.
Did anyone else notice in the article they went right to does he have a concealed carry permit without ANY evidence he had a concealed gun??

Interesting that the witnesses don't want to talk, usually they wont shut up and say anything they think will get them on the news!


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a single reason why the older man needed to shoot the younger one. You're in a truck. Lock the door and roll up the window if you think you're in danger.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MDKatie said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't think of a single reason why the older man needed to shoot the younger one. You're in a truck. Lock the door and roll up the window if you think you're in danger.


Ok how about this.
"Oh my that idiot has attacked me twice with a lethal weapon and now he has trapped me and is attacking on foot"

I'm not saying that's what happened but I can certainly see how with the story we have been told it COULD be true.
If that was his perception of the situation I doubt he would have seen a window as much protection from whatever unknown weapon the younger man might have had.

As a older man myself with some experience in being beat up I can certainly see the fear he might have hard. Even without a weapon a young ticked off guy could be dangerous , a knowledge of marital arts would render him very dangerous.

But its all speculation at this point, I doubt w will ever know the truth.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> People imagine things the time.
> The key thing in the woman's statement to me was the "almost"
> "He ALMOST cut us off"
> Means he DIDN'T cut them off he just offended them, look at it in that light and the man defending himself with a gun becomes much more of a possibility.
> ...


I noticed that "almost" too...big difference between being cut off and almost cut off. Even actually being cut off is a bad reason to walk up to someone's vehicle at a traffic light.

On the concealed issue, I think in Michigan a concealed carry permit is required to have an accessible gun in your vehicle. Open carry doesn't require a permit, but as soon as you get in a vehicle it's considered concealed.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

What's the legal way to carry a pistol in a pickup in Mi?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> What's the legal way to carry a pistol in a pickup in Mi?


To "carry" one, I believe you need a permit. To "transport" one, I think it has to be unloaded and in a locked case or something like that.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

It's a tragedy all right, but who brought it about is far from clear. If you believe half of what the family's attorney says I've got a bridge you might be interested in.

Was the shooter blocked in where he couldn't drive off? The younger guy looks fairly big/strong, was he physically threatening the other guy? Who gets upset when you're "almost" cut off? It's been my experience people who challenge strangers generally have a history of physical intimidation/violence.

Wait for the shooter's attorney to make a statement, then believe about half of that.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

MDKatie said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't think of a single reason why the older man needed to shoot the younger one. You're in a truck. Lock the door and roll up the window if you think you're in danger.


good point, but without knowing the specifics of the area, I won't judge just yet. you can be sure the shooter is going to have to answer why he didn't just drive away. Even in a state without a duty to retreat, the attacker has to pose a credible threat and with the attacker on foot and the defender in truck, where is the credible threat.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Very sad, indeed. Now there is a widow and orphans. Not to mention the impact to the shooter's family, if he has one.

This is what can happen when two fools meet up.

We should all take a lesson or two from this incident.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

DEKE01 said:


> good point, but without knowing the specifics of the area, I won't judge just yet. you can be sure the shooter is going to have to answer why he didn't just drive away. Even in a state without a duty to retreat, the attacker has to pose a credible threat and with the attacker on foot and the defender in truck, where is the credible threat.


I've done that on two occasions...I'd rather get a ticket for running a red than get attacked by a psycho. I always try to leave enough room when I stop at a light that I can get away even if there are cars in front of me. Even with cross traffic, there's usually somewhere you can go to put some distance between you and a person on foot.

I don't know this particular intersection, but that's a fairly nice area if I remember correctly. Both guys were residents of the small city...their families probably know each other.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

To use deadly force you must answer these three questions with a YES.
Does your adversary have the MEANS to cause you death or great bodily harm?
Does your adversary have the ABILITY to cause you death or great bodily harm?
Does your adversary have the INTENT to cause you death or great bodily harm?

Answering NO to any one of these means you can not use deadly force. Even with three yes answers, the best thing may still be leaving the area.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Just reading the stories again, another detail caught my attention. Witnesses say the shooter rolled his window down and then shot the other man. That does not sound like he felt particularly threatened. Why roll your window down if there's a threat outside?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> Just reading the stories again, another detail caught my attention. Witnesses say the shooter rolled his window down and then shot the other man. That does not sound like he felt particularly threatened. Why roll your window down if there's a threat outside?


Ever shoot a gun in a truck cab  We got fools now days would say you won't shoot me . Don't know at what point the guy shot saw the gun but to confront a stranger now days you got to be insane or have the drop on him first . :duel:


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

FireMaker said:


> To use deadly force you must answer these three questions with a YES.
> Does your adversary have the MEANS to cause you death or great bodily harm?
> Does your adversary have the ABILITY to cause you death or great bodily harm?
> Does your adversary have the INTENT to cause you death or great bodily harm?
> ...


Only way to answer those questions for sure is after he kills you :run:


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Ever shoot a gun in a truck cab


No, but I've never shot a person either. If I ever felt threatened enough to shoot someone, I probably wouldn't have time to roll my window down first.

It's a fair point that we don't know the timeline though. The articles make it sound like he shot immediately upon rolling the window down, but perhaps that isn't how it happened.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Only way to answer those questions for sure is after he kills you :run:


Firemaker was right except that he phrased it slightly wrong. Since reasonable force decisions can not wait until after the defender is dead, the questions are supposed to read something closer to...

Do you have an objectively reasonable belief your adversary have the MEANS to cause you death or great bodily harm?
Do you have an objectively reasonable belief your adversary have the ABILITY to cause you death or great bodily harm?
Do you have an objectively reasonable belief your adversary have the INTENT to cause you death or great bodily harm?

"objectively reasonable" is a term of art invented by SCOTUS. You can be wrong, like maybe I'm pointing a toy gun at you as I yell I'm going to kill you, but if it is dark and all you see is a gun shape, you can have an objectively reasonable belief your life is in danger and should be able to shoot me with no criminal penalty.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Since he was in a truck, with steel and glass all around as protection, if he truly felt threatened, why didn't he point the gun and yell, "Stay back, I have a gun!" or something like that. It would have given the other man a chance to back away, and had the man on foot actually had a weapon, he wouldn't have had time to shoot faster than the man who already had the weapon aimed. 

Don't get me wrong, there is no way getting out of your vehicle and confronting someone is the right way to handle an aggressive driver. That's just plain stupid. But it's also just stupid to shoot someone when you're in the safety of your truck.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

MDKatie said:


> Since he was in a truck, with steel and glass all around as protection, if he truly felt threatened, why didn't he point the gun and yell, "Stay back, I have a gun!" or something like that. It would have given the other man a chance to back away, and had the man on foot actually had a weapon, he wouldn't have had time to shoot faster than the man who already had the weapon aimed.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there is no way getting out of your vehicle and confronting someone is the right way to handle an aggressive driver. That's just plain stupid. But it's also just stupid to shoot someone when you're in the safety of your truck.


Sorry to say it, but being behind a side window glass isn't much protection from a determined assailant. I've personally seen someone punch right through a driver's window. It took him a couple more punches and he was dragging the other guy through it.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Sorry to say it, but being behind a side window glass isn't much protection from a determined assailant. I've personally seen someone punch right through a driver's window. It took him a couple more punches and he was dragging the other guy through it.


Don't you think you'd have time to draw your weapon if someone started punching your window?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

MDKatie said:


> Don't you think you'd have time to draw your weapon if someone started punching your window?


What if the other guy was drawing a weapon out of a pocket, holster or from behind his back as he walked up to the window and shot through the glass? The driver in the car would be playing catch -up trying to dodge lead. 
It is much more difficult to draw a weapon from a sitting position and remove a seat belt unless you have made prior preps for this kind if situation.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm woundering if this "almost cut us off" is one of these people that rolls up to a stop at about 60 mph, freeking out those driveing on the road.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

MDKatie said:


> Since he was in a truck, with steel and glass all around as protection, if he truly felt threatened, why didn't he point the gun and yell, "Stay back, I have a gun!" or something like that. It would have given the other man a chance to back away, and had the man on foot actually had a weapon, he wouldn't have had time to shoot faster than the man who already had the weapon aimed.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there is no way getting out of your vehicle and confronting someone is the right way to handle an aggressive driver. That's just plain stupid. But it's also just stupid to shoot someone when you're in the safety of your truck.


I would rather be behind a little cover of a car or truck than outside with absolutly no cover BUT, look at these articles. Not much cover in a car, even from a pistol. 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-3-pistols-and-car-doors/

http://www.theboxotruth.com/tag/buick-of-truth/


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Possum Belly said:


> What if the other guy was drawing a weapon out of a pocket, holster or from behind his back as he walked up to the window and shot through the glass? The driver in the car would be playing catch -up trying to dodge lead.
> It is much more difficult to draw a weapon from a sitting position and remove a seat belt unless you have made prior preps for this kind if situation.


That's why I mentioned in my other post that the driver could have pulled his weapon and had it aimed, ready in case the guy outside actually had a weapon. 

Police don't automatically draw and shoot...they draw and give the guy a chance to back down. 

And like it has been mentioned before, the guy had time to roll down his window before shooting. Surely if he felt immediately threatened he wouldn't have done that, right?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

MDKatie said:


> *Since he was in a truck, with steel and glass all around as protection,* if he truly felt threatened, why didn't he point the gun and yell, "Stay back, I have a gun!" or something like that. It would have given the other man a chance to back away, and had the man on foot actually had a weapon, he wouldn't have had time to shoot faster than the man who already had the weapon aimed.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there is no way getting out of your vehicle and confronting someone is the right way to handle an aggressive driver. That's just plain stupid. But it's also just stupid to shoot someone when you're in the safety of your truck.





MDKatie said:


> That's why I mentioned in my other post that the driver could have pulled his weapon and had it aimed, ready in case the guy outside actually had a weapon.
> 
> Police don't automatically draw and shoot...they draw and give the guy a chance to back down.
> 
> And like it has been mentioned before, the guy had time to roll down his window before shooting. Surely if he felt immediately threatened he wouldn't have done that, right?


I understand what you are saying, BUT I am just trying to point out, that there is not so much *protection* sitting in a car or truck if the other guy is armed.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

DEKE01 said:


> good point, but without knowing the specifics of the area, I won't judge just yet. you can be sure the shooter is going to have to answer why he didn't just drive away. Even in a state without a duty to retreat, the attacker has to pose a credible threat and with the attacker on foot and the defender in truck, where is the credible threat.


As I understand it they were stopped at a red light... it would have been illegal for our defender to "just drive away".


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Well things like this can happen real quick. When I was 17 comming back to SC from NC after a week long camping trip I drove up on a slow moving car.

I passed them and kept driving then they passed me and slowed down to a stop. I was driving a 75 cj5 jeep with no top. I backed up about 50ft.

A man gets out with a tire tool and starts walking to me. I showed him a stainless Ruger 357 and he dropped the tire tool. I'm glad dad always believed if you were old enough to drive you were old enough to carry. I still have the tire tool and dad still has the jeep.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

TripleD said:


> A man gets out with a tire tool and starts walking to me. I showed him a stainless Ruger 357 and he dropped the tire tool. I'm glad dad always believed if you were old enough to drive you were old enough to carry. I still have the tire tool and dad still has the jeep.


See, you were a young kid without the protection of a roofed truck, and you still did not shoot the man, even knowing he had weapon.  

That's my point.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MDKatie said:


> See, you were a young kid without the protection of a roofed truck, and you still did not shoot the man, even knowing he had weapon.
> 
> That's my point.


 He dropped the tire tool or he would be dead. Thanks to dad.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MDKatie said:


> See, you were a young kid without the protection of a roofed truck, and you still did not shoot the man, even knowing he had weapon.
> 
> That's my point.


Different people respond to different situations in a wide range of ways. Youth will often be quicker to fight it out, old guys are not so fast and agile as the once were, and get dangerous because of it. They know they are no match for a younger man in a scuffle, but they aim to defend themselves just the same. Me? I am too old and slow to be scuffling around on the ground with some yahoo.... he's going down if he poses a threat to me or mine. I am kinda old school on this, I would far rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. And yeah, an angry young man storming up to my car at an intersection???? thats posing a threat.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Id bet BOTH theses guys honestly thought they were in the right at the time.



MDKatie said:


> , the guy had time to roll down his window before shooting. Surely if he felt immediately threatened he wouldn't have done that, right?


 Nope Lets say he was a reasonable guy, he saw the situation developing and to head it off he takes his gun out of his case and loads it, then rolls his window down to try to talk the guy down.


Yvonne's hubby said:


> As I understand it they were stopped at a red light... it would have been illegal for our defender to "just drive away".


Perhaps not, in case of emergency traffic laws can be disobeyed, in any case Id rather take the ticket for running a red light than what this guy is going to deal with.



MDKatie said:


> See, you were a young kid without the protection of a roofed truck, and you still did not shoot the man, even knowing he had weapon.
> 
> That's my point.





TripleD said:


> He dropped the tire tool or he would be dead. Thanks to dad.


See the difference was in how the aggressor reacted.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I thought is was interesting that an attorney went to see the man in jail, but will not be representing him. 

Makes me wonder if he thought 'oh heck no' after talking to him. Pure speculation of course.

I have a friend who works at the Livingston county jail, but I suspect she wouldn't be able to tell me anything...too bad, I am curious.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

After rereading the wife's testimony It occurs to me she too should have kept her mouth shut . Her Attorney's statements indicate she is a unreliable witness.

When she says she "FELT' the truck would hit them and then goes on to say that it cut in front of them she Shows that she didn't have a accurate comprehension of the situation . Not even at that early stage of the crisis.

Id think that that lawyer must be playing deeply to crowed sentiment to make such a statement in public.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> I thought is was interesting that an attorney went to see the man in jail, but will not be representing him.
> 
> Makes me wonder if he thought 'oh heck no' after talking to him. Pure speculation of course.
> 
> I have a friend who works at the Livingston county jail, but I suspect she wouldn't be able to tell me anything...too bad, I am curious.


You might be supprised,ask.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Youth will often be quicker to fight it out, old guys are not so fast and agile as the once were,


Or you can say a 17 year old knows he's no match against a grown man. But still, he didn't shoot right away. 



AmericanStand said:


> Nope Lets say he was a reasonable guy, he saw the situation developing and to head it off he takes his gun out of his case and loads it, then rolls his window down to try to talk the guy down.


Talk the guy down? It doesn't give a whole lot of info in the article so far, but it definitely doesn't say there was any talking at all. From what I gathered from the article, he rolled down the window and shot without much (if any)hesitation.



AmericanStand said:


> See the difference was in how the aggressor reacted.


Did the guy with the gun give the man on foot a chance to even walk away? We don't know that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MDKatie said:


> We don't know that.


:buds:
I think you have hit the key to this whole thread.
We just don't know what happened.
I'm pretty skeptical of most things, specially lawyers and statements from those involved.
I can identify with a older man in traffic situation.
Also I tend to be argumentative and probably am attracted to the to the hard side of a argument, 
Sorry about that.
Honestly I don't think we have many facts here.

A man was shot, thats about all I will concede as a fact at this point.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> :buds:
> I think you have hit the key to this whole thread.
> We just don't know what happened.
> I'm pretty skeptical of most things, specially lawyers and statements from those involved.
> ...


I like a good debate, too.  And I seem to always side with the dead person when it looks like (key words, "looks like") someone rushed to judgement with a deadly weapon. Yep, not many facts so far...but it's fun to speculate.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> As I understand it they were stopped at a red light... it would have been illegal for our defender to "just drive away".


Hmmmm. ..run a red light or get in a shoot out. That's an easy decision for me. Shooting is way down on the list for me...a last resort


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Moore said Amy Flemming, who is still in shock, told police that the couple was traveling east on Grand River Avenue to pick up their young children from the first day of school when they noticed a pickup driver &#8212; allegedly Zale &#8212; &#8220;screaming down a side street&#8221; toward their 2014 Ford Escape.

Moore said Amy Flemming felt the 2012 Dodge pickup driver was going to hit them, but instead he cut them off as he turned onto Grand River Avenue. Moore said Derek Flemming attempted to move to the right lane to allow the pickup driver to pass, but the other driver nearly struck their sport utility vehicle.

Livingston County Sheriff Bob Bezotte said the pickup driver was tailgating the Flemming couple&#8217;s Escape until they reached National Street, where the pickup driver then passed the SUV.

Moore said Amy Flemming told police that the pickup driver cut to the left, getting in front of their SUV, and he &#8220;slammed on the brakes.&#8221;



http://www.freep.com/article/20140904/NEWS06/309040111/Howell-road-rage-shooting


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MDKatie said:


> I like a good debate, too.  And I seem to always side with the dead person when it looks like (key words, "looks like") someone rushed to judgement with a deadly weapon. Yep, not many facts so far...but it's fun to speculate.


 Debate away but for the record the grown man was no match for me.:grin: I've made it 33 years since that happened and have pulled my gun way more than most people should have to. I live in a pretty bad area. I'll be looking over my shoulder in 8 yrs when a convicted felon gets out that I didnt shoot......


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

TripleD said:


> Debate away but for the record the grown man was no match for me.:grin: I've made it 33 years since that happened and have pulled my gun way more than most people should have to. I live in a pretty bad area. I'll be looking over my shoulder in 8 yrs when a convicted felon gets out that I didnt shoot......


I think you handled that particular situation perfectly! And I hope you have an easy time in 8 years.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MDKatie said:


> Did the guy with the gun give the man on foot a chance to even walk away? We don't know that.


Of course we know that... what we dont know is exactly how many chances he gave him. We do know that he had a chance to not open his door and step out of his vehicle, we also know that he had a chance to turn and return to the safety of his vehicle with each and every step he took while advancing to the old guy with the gun. How many steps did he take? that we do not know, but he was given a chance to turn and walk away everytime he took a step forward. He opted not to do the right thing every time.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Of course we know that... what we dont know is exactly how many chances he gave him.


We do? Where in the article does it say that? And does it say how far away from the truck he was when he was shot?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Tiempo said:


> I thought is was interesting that an attorney went to see the man in jail, but will not be representing him.
> 
> Makes me wonder if he thought 'oh heck no' after talking to him. Pure speculation of course.
> 
> I have a friend who works at the Livingston county jail, but I suspect she wouldn't be able to tell me anything...too bad, I am curious.


Could be any number of reasons, but I thought the exact same thing when I read that. I would love to know who the attorney was...maybe that's not privileged information.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

MDKatie said:


> I like a good debate, too.  And I seem to always side with the dead person when it looks like (key words, "looks like") someone rushed to judgement with a deadly weapon. Yep, not many facts so far...but it's fun to speculate.


I usually tend to side with the person on "defense" (in this case the shooter because the other guy approached him) but on this one I'm definitely leaning the other way on the very limited information we have. From what we "know" both guys were idiots, but I have a hard time defending the shooter. Maybe more will come out that completely flips that around. Sad either way.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> As I understand it they were stopped at a red light... it would have been illegal for our defender to "just drive away".





Yvonne's hubby said:


> I am kinda old school on this, I would far rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.


Seems a bit incongruous....


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Charges have been filed:

http://www.livingstondaily.com/stor...y-slain-mans-children-asking-father/15041993/


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

jtbrandt said:


> Seems a bit incongruous....


Not really, I dont live in the area, but there are some posters here that do, and according to their accounts this is a very high traffic intersection... running the red light with heavy traffic is not just illegal.... but most likely would have been suicidal.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not really, I dont live in the area, but there are some posters here that do, and according to their accounts this is a very high traffic intersection... running the red light with heavy traffic is not just illegal.... but most likely would have been suicidal.


Grand River is a big, very busy road, but Chilson is a small road that essentially T bones at Grand River from the south... It does have crossover traffic but pretty much the only reason to be crossing over would be to enter the parking lot of a small shopping center on the north side of GR or to go from the shopping center south on Chilson, or turning onto Grand River

IDK, I wasn't there, but it shouldn't have been difficult for him to maneuver away from a man on foot at that spot if he really felt his life was in danger.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

You can play with the street view

https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...0x882347138d488b35:0x4b19b65be46a6379!6m1!1e1


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I was doing that yesterday trying to figure out what I would have done. I know Grand River in that area pretty well (I have family in Howell) but didn't know this particular intersection.

We still don't know all the circumstances (like whether there was anyone in front of the shooter at the light) but I'm quite certain I'd rather get a ticket for running a light than get charged with murder.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not really, I dont live in the area, but there are some posters here that do, and according to their accounts this is a very high traffic intersection... running the red light with heavy traffic is not just illegal.... but most likely would have been suicidal.


You don't have to floor it into oncoming traffic...in most circumstances you can still cautiously move into cross traffic without it being "suicidal." I've done it on two occasions to get away from people approaching my vehicle at traffic lights. On one of those occasions I had a gun. I guess I could have just shot the guy, but that seems a little extreme when an alternative was available.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tiempo said:


> You can play with the street view
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...0x882347138d488b35:0x4b19b65be46a6379!6m1!1e1


No need to play with the street view! 4 lanes full of traffic tells me pretty much what I need to know. No way would I jump a red light into that mess. Although I did notice running red lights doesnt seem to be an issue with some folks there!


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> No need to play with the street view! 4 lanes full of traffic tells me pretty much what I need to know. No way would I jump a red light into that mess.


The four lanes are Grand River...which they were already on...and traffic was stopped in at least one direction. Turning off of Grand River would have been onto a much less busy road.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

jtbrandt said:


> You don't have to floor it into oncoming traffic...in most circumstances you can still cautiously move into cross traffic without it being "suicidal." I've done it on two occasions to get away from people approaching my vehicle at traffic lights. On one of those occasions I had a gun. I guess I could have just shot the guy, but that seems a little extreme when an alternative was available.


Did you click on Tiempo's link? I aint pulling out in that mess unless someone was shooting at me, and they would have to be hitting pretty close!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

jtbrandt said:


> The four lanes are Grand River...which they were already on...and traffic was stopped in at least one direction. Turning off of Grand River would have been onto a much less busy road.


The traffic was stopped??? Like it is "stopped" in the street view posted??? Lites all bright red, cars continuing on in all directions... pulling out against that lite would be a great way to get centerpunched.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The traffic was stopped??? Like it is "stopped" in the street view posted??? Lites all bright red, cars continuing on in all directions... pulling out against that lite would be a great way to get centerpunched.


You're being ridiculous...both parties in this incident were stopped at a red light, so yes, traffic was stopped in at least one direction. It wasn't 4 lanes of madness. And he wouldn't be pulling out against it, since he was already IN it. Pulling out would be away from the traffic, not into it. Also, it may be different where you and I live, but 4 lanes is nothing there. People are used to it. It's really nowhere near as chaotic as it may look to an outsider.

And again, nobody is saying to floor it into oncoming traffic. I've been through this intersection, and looking back at the street view I'm sure I could find a way to put distance between myself and an attacker without causing a wreck. If you want to shoot anyone who comes near you, go for it. Find out if it really is better to be judged by 12 than to fight a traffic ticket.

But all this is probably irrelevant, since it's sounding more and more like the shooter had no desire to avoid shooting someone.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Really, he wouldn't have had to even pull away. Honking the horn would have drawn attention to them. But hey, why miss the chance to murder someone? :sarcasm: 

The prosecutor said it...you can't shoot someone because you're unhappy with them.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The traffic was stopped??? Like it is "stopped" in the street view posted??? Lites all bright red, cars continuing on in all directions... pulling out against that lite would be a great way to get centerpunched.


Do you get off the dirt roads much? 

Trust me, around here that's nothing..loads of opportunity to safely get away in a truck in a 'life threatening' situation with a bi-ped.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Well, I hate the guy got killed and I hate the older guy killed him. One thing for sure, IF the younger guy had kept his head and stayed in his vehicle and decided not to confront the older guy, *none* of this would have happened.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sounds like the dead guy had a case of the "Kevin Ward, Jr get outa' your car and die" mistake.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Do you get off the dirt roads much?
> 
> Trust me, around here that's nothing..loads of opportunity to safely get away in a truck in a 'life threatening' situation with a bi-ped.


Maybe. We don't know the space in front, in back, beside. If the guy was at his vehicle before he knew it, he'd have to take his eyes off the guy to search out an escape route. 
Launch your car between stopped cars, clip a few to escape and the angry Ped hops into his truck and drives off. "Honest, Officer, it wasn't my fault. There was a guy asking what my problem was." Know who gets the ticket? 
Perhaps the guy grabbed him? We just don't know. 

I was on that road 6 times in the past week. Not sure what intersection, but busy road.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

That street view sure wasn't taken at 7:30 am or 5:00 PM. Otherwise there would be a lot less blacktop showing. It's bumper to bumper any time I'm on it.
No camera on that end of M-59, but here is a camera on the east end of M-59. Check it out in daylight.
https://mdotnetpublic.state.mi.us/drive/mobile/CameraImage.aspx?cameraID=1075


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This explains a lot. He needed a Trunk Monkey.....
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rFvR7Bv9Fk[/ame]


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Wonder if I can convince my seven year old to do that...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Just be thankful it wasn't a Black dude that got shot. We have enough robberies and arson already. Plus we don't need the roads congested with the NEWS Media and Washington Dignitaries.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

haypoint said:


> That street view sure wasn't taken at 7:30 am or 5:00 PM. Otherwise there would be a lot less blacktop showing. It's bumper to bumper any time I'm on it.
> No camera on that end of M-59, but here is a camera on the east end of M-59. Check it out in daylight.
> https://mdotnetpublic.state.mi.us/drive/mobile/CameraImage.aspx?cameraID=1075


It's been about a year since I've been there, but I'm confused about why 59 is coming into it. Yeah, the west end of 59 is near/at Grand River, but this incident was 2-3 miles from 59.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

We all can be fools at times.
Long ago, I lived in an area serviced by a car ferry. In mid-winter, late at night I was headed home. Drove onto the ferry. Another vehicle was already there. It took 5 minutes to cross the channel. The Deck Hand motioned for me to exit. The other vehicle followed. There is a mile long causeway. The vehicle had his bright lights on. I slowed to let him pass. He tailgated me so close, I couldn't see his tail lights in my rear view mirror, inches away from me. I pulled over and stopped to let him by. But he just sat there right behind me. I was tired. It had been a long day. I just wanted to go home, safely. Finally, I got out of my vehicle and walked back to this tailgater. Just like the victim in this recent tragedy, I asked, "What's your problem?" I really expected an explanation. Instead, he got out of his car. I noticed a lot of things in that moment. He was bigger than me. It was near zero degrees outside. There was no one around. There wouldn't be anyone around for awhile. On the icy road, I didn't think I could get back to my vehicle before he latched onto me. This could be a life or death situation.
Two guys bare fisted boxing on an icy road doesn't resemble a Prize Fight at all. After a few punches were thrown, I caught him a couple times in the eye and then flipped him onto his back. That gave me enough room to get to my car and drive away. 
I recall the event as if it were last year. It represents a pinnacle of stupidity in my life.
That guy could have had a gun, tire iron, anything. But, just as easily, I could have had a gun and walked back there and shot him.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Haypoint, did he ever say or did you ever figure out why it happened or why he was angry with you?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Possum Belly said:


> Haypoint, did he ever say or did you ever figure out why it happened or why he was angry with you?


He had driven on the ferry first and expected to leave the ferry first. I just followed the direction of the Deckhand. We were parked side by side on the ferry. He felt I had cut in front of him.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

jtbrandt said:


> It's been about a year since I've been there, but I'm confused about why 59 is coming into it. Yeah, the west end of 59 is near/at Grand River, but this incident was 2-3 miles from 59.


My mistake. I've been on 59 lately at Howell and was thinking that is where it happened. Sorry


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

haypoint said:


> He had driven on the ferry first and expected to leave the ferry first. I just followed the direction of the Deckhand. We were parked side by side on the ferry. He felt I had cut in front of him.


What an idiot. I am glad you got the best of him. Glad you survived.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

haypoint said:


> My mistake. I've been on 59 lately at Howell and was thinking that is where it happened. Sorry


No problem...I just didn't understand.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

This article is very poorly written for a big newspaper, but it says pretty much what I expected the defense to say.



> The lawyer representing a motorist charged with murder in a road rage incident last week near Howell says she will argue self-defense when the case goes to trial.
> 
> But defense attorney Melissa Pearce at a press conference this morning declined to release details on why or what happened that fatal day that leads her to believe self defense is appropriate.
> 
> &#8220;The whole story has not been heard,&#8221; she said.


http://www.freep.com/article/20140909/NEWS05/309090021/road-rage-howell-martin-zale-derek-flemming


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Just wondering.....
If instead of a 69 year old man in a pickup truck, it were an Impala with 6 young men in it. Would the dude be hopping out of his car and storming up to the driver's window with, " You got a problem?"
I think he felt safe to intimidate/bully the old guy without fear of retaliation.
Just like when someone snatches an old lady's purse and she pulls a gun out and shoots him before he can get the purse. That is the whole basis to bringing a knife to a gun fight. Attempts at intimidation run amuck. 
If long haired tattooed Bikers and dark hooded groups of Black teens cause people to get out of their way, due to a perception of impending violence, while senior citizens are likely victims in robberies, thefts and assaults, due to a perception of vulnerability, what can be done to turn that around? I don't recommend old guys shoot every dude that tosses a box of popcorn on them or every dude that storms their car in traffic, but if it becomes more common, maybe a few hot headed bullies will think twice before targeting an old guy.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Just wondering.....
> If instead of a 69 year old man in a pickup truck, it were an Impala with 6 young men in it. Would the dude be hopping out of his car and storming up to the driver's window with, " You got a problem?"
> I think he felt safe to intimidate/bully the old guy without fear of retaliation.
> Just like when someone snatches an old lady's purse and she pulls a gun out and shoots him before he can get the purse. That is the whole basis to bringing a knife to a gun fight. Attempts at intimidation run amuck.
> If long haired tattooed Bikers and dark hooded groups of Black teens cause people to get out of their way, due to a perception of impending violence, while senior citizens are likely victims in robberies, thefts and assaults, due to a perception of vulnerability, what can be done to turn that around? I don't recommend old guys shoot every dude that tosses a box of popcorn on them or every dude that storms their car in traffic, but if it becomes more common, maybe a few hot headed bullies will think twice before targeting an old guy.


Remember that stupid game gangs were playing where the goal was to knock out or beat up someone random on the street?
Since they attacked that little old lady who had a pistol in her purse I haven't heard much about the game lol.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

There's a difference in someone robbing an old lady and doing the "knock-out" game. Those actually involve crimes. Getting out of the car, and asking "What is your problem?" while very stupid, is not a crime. 

And did you guys see the picture of the 69 year old? He doesn't look like a feeble old man. He doesn't even look anywhere near his age even.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

jtbrandt said:


> This article is very poorly written for a big newspaper, but it says pretty much what I expected the defense to say.
> 
> http://www.freep.com/article/20140909/NEWS05/309090021/road-rage-howell-martin-zale-derek-flemming


And the whole story will never be heard. We will at some point hear the story the shooter wishes to share. Some witnesses might be able to fill in some gaps but we'll never really know exactly what the dead man was thinking, or exactly what he said or did.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> And the whole story will never be heard. We will at some point hear the story the shooter wishes to share. Some witnesses might be able to fill in some gaol but we'll never really know exactly what the dead man was thinking, or exactly what he said or did.


I agree 100% but it doesn't really matter. No matter how angry, how rude, how many times the dead guy cut off the shooter, unless there was some sort of extenuating circumstance that have not been revealed, the shooter had no reason to kill. 

Reasonable use of a gun is to de-escalate a violent situation, not to ratchet it up further. I carry virtually all the time and I've had to choke down harsh words and anger and even endure taunts and threats of violence while I was armed because I could not justify drawing my gun and did not want to risk a physical confrontation where my gun could get taken from me.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

handymama said:


> Remember that stupid game gangs were playing where the goal was to knock out or beat up someone random on the street?
> Since they attacked that little old lady who had a pistol in her purse I haven't heard much about the game lol.


IIRC, that little old lady story was made up


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Apparently, both the dead guy and shooter have been involved in road rage incidents in the past. The shooter hit another driver with his hand after following him into a parking lot. The dead guy confronted another driver that upset him and was knocked down. Dead guy also allegedly threatened utility workers on his property, as well as deputies who showed up for those run-ins. Two guys with bad tempers...what could go wrong?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2014/09/16/histories-victim-shooter-coming-light/15746453/


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Interesting when guys "lose control" do it on someone they judge they can take. Sounds like selective control loss.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

jtbrandt said:


> I usually tend to side with the person on "defense" (in this case the shooter because the other guy approached him) but on this one I'm definitely leaning the other way on the very limited information we have. From what we "know" both guys were idiots, but I have a hard time defending the shooter. Maybe more will come out that completely flips that around. Sad either way.





Ozarks Tom said:


> Confronting the older guy was definitely a bad move. It proves what I've always heard, old guys won't fight you - they'll kill you.


:hijacked:

As I get Older I find my self thinking more and more " Why should I have to back down from this MORON ?"
So there it is Ozarks Tom has a valid point.
And let me pose the question, why do we have to back down from the morons perhaps that's the problem this country needs more chlorine in the gene pool?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> :hijacked:
> 
> As I get Older I find my self thinking more and more " Why should I have to back down from this MORON ?"
> So there it is Ozarks Tom has a valid point.
> And let me pose the question, why do we have to back down from the morons perhaps that's the problem this country needs more chlorine in the gene pool?


That's interesting, because the older I get (I'm 74 now) the more I think it's just not worth it to kill another person to save only myself, even if they have it coming. Not that I don't enjoy life. I really do. But a young guy has a lot of potential years left to get his stuff together and become a productive member of society. Ideally, he would have done that earlier in life, but I've already made my contribution and maybe I'd give him (and his family) a second chance. I would feel terrible to have taken out the guy in this case even though he was a hotheaded jerk. His kids have no father now. That would weigh on me, even if I was completely in the right to shoot him. There's also the whole legal mess that often happens if you kill someone in self defense. I don't know if that's worth it either. I have no idea what I would actually do if faced with a life or death choice like that though. 

As to this case, I still highly doubt the shooter's actions were justified, either legally or morally. But we haven't heard his side yet. Just maybe he can convince a jury that a reasonable person would do the same thing.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

He was sentenced to 27-50 years

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2015/06/report_road-rage_shooter_senta.html


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Stupid + armed = 50 years.

Guess he showed him. 



> The prosecution had argued that Zale should have rolled up his window and driven away rather than firing his 9mm Ruger semi-automatic handgun. Both men had been involved in previous unrelated road-rage incidents that got the attention of area law-enforcement officers.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/12/michigan-road-rage-shooting-death/71142100/


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