# Could we discuss American Nubians vs. Nubians?



## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

Is there an appreciable difference between American Nubians and regular Nubians? Someone desperately wanted my buckling until they saw that his dam is an American Nubian (his sire is just Nubian.) She acted like he was little better than a mutt even though his dam is a grand champion!

I'm confused. I thought they were essentially the same thing...

Could someone enlighten me?

RedTartan


----------



## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

It's of course not a popular subject with those who have Americans. 

Yes Purebred Nubian breeders are elistest snobs, we stare down our roman noses at the mere thought of Americans. Sure they milk, sure they have even won Nationals, but how much did her buckling sell for these last two years? So even if you aren't elistest or a snob, you really going to turn all your purebred kids American by using an American buck? No. No matter how nice the doe is. Two does of equal quality here, an American does kids sell for about half of what her Purebred counterpart does.

The herd books are closed in ADGA, and only purebreds are allowed in AGS. So although you can grade up anything to American status in Nubian, you won't be accepted into the purebred registry...or invited to the party 

I have had Americans', nice does, even spotted  but the reality is, do all this work and make less money on their kids? No. So when I started over in 2000, I went all purebred, and all Nubian (we showed and raised LaMancha's for 8 years) and dairied with all breeds and crosses of, except Obies. Vicki


----------



## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

Wow. I wish I would have known. I have one Am. Nubian (GCH), one purebred Nubian FF (I traded my spotted Am. Nubian buckling for her), and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe. I guess I've officially got everything! 

Well, if I do decide to get a buck, I guess he'll be purebred Nubian.

RedTartan <- guesses you learn something new everyday...


----------



## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe
............

No such thing. If she is a purebred (full blood is boer terms) but non-papered she is a grade. If you breed her up, her great granddaughters can be Amercian. It's unethical to refer to your stock as purebred or registered without paperwork to back it up. Vicki


----------



## nubiansinny (Jul 31, 2007)

On the up side if your looking for milkers and are not big into showing and breeding. You don't have to take out a mortage to by an outstanding american 
I don't think there is as much bias on does as bucks.
I think it depends on your area and market also.I own both and my buck is an american.
Since you can't tell unless you look at their papers I don't see all the fuss


----------



## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe
> ............
> 
> No such thing. If she is a purebred (full blood is boer terms) but non-papered she is a grade. If you breed her up, her great granddaughters can be Amercian. It's unethical to refer to your stock as purebred or registered without paperwork to back it up. Vicki


Did I say she was registered? No. I am new to this and am describing things to the best of my ability in a completely honest way. I am not unethical.

You need to get out of the goat barn and work on your people skills.

RedTartan


----------



## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

Our two favorite does are American. There was an unregistered parent in their backgrounds. They are every bit as Nubian to us as the rest of ours - and they cost us as much, too. Great milkers...so we didn't really care about the "A" word.


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm! I didn't know there was a difference between the Purebreds & the Americans....so is it safe to assume its all in papers, not necessarly how well the doe produces or if she is show quality then? 
Vicki I liked the way you described "We stare down our Roman noses" got a good chuckle out that.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Newbie warning: Vicki sometimes comes on strong. She makes her living out in that goat barn!

We love her depth of information and helpful advice when having goat health problems. 

Some of us back yard goat folks aren't roman nosed. :banana02:


----------



## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

I have both American and Purebred Nubians. My herd sires are Purebreds. I will sell bucklings out of any of my does. Some folks just want a nice buck to freshen their milkers and aren't into breeding top selling Nubians. The reality is that there are American Nuibians that can beat Purebreds in the show ring, but when it comes to getting top dollar for your goats, folks will pay more foe Purebreds. On the other hand, unless your herd is well known in the show circles, even your purebreds won't command what the premier breeders get. Commercial dairies, who generally don't show their goats usually pay the same for any goat with blue papers. What they are looking for is lots of milk in the bucket. The two goats I have had who became finished champions are not purebreds. One was an American Saanen. The other is a Grade La Mancha named Blossom. A friend got her for me after her purebred dam was sold to a dairy. Dam was registerable, but the dairy didn't register her. Genetically, Blossom is purebred. Paperwise, she's a Native on Appearance Grade La Mancha. She has one of the nicest udders I've ever seen and makes lots of milk.


----------



## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

Newbie to goat registration here. Can someone please explain or link to an explaniation of American and purebred for the beginner? Thank you. If I wanted to start a purebred herd, where & how do I start?


----------



## happygoatfarms (Mar 21, 2008)

RedTartan said:


> Did I say she was registered? No. I am new to this and am describing things to the best of my ability in a completely honest way. I am not unethical.
> 
> You need to get out of the goat barn and work on your people skills.
> 
> RedTartan


RedTartan - I couldn't agree with you more. Excellent post. People skills have ALWAYS been more important than goat skills. Glad to have you on board and learning with the rest of us normal people. 

Vicki - please go easy on her. She DOES have very valid points.





Rose said:


> Newbie warning: Vicki sometimes comes on strong. She makes her living out in that goat barn!
> 
> Some of us back yard goat folks aren't roman nosed.



Most of us normal folks aren't roman nosed either! We enjoy learning from PEOPLE who don't try to run our farms the way _they_ think they should be run, but rather offer good, solid, and KIND advice. That is what makes it all worth it.

RedTartan, keep up the questions and learning. NONE of us is perfect or knows it all about goats, and most of us will always enjoy learning. Enjoy those milkers, and if you want to breed up, have at it. Americans Nubians can be just as fun and loving as any other Nubians. It's all in the owner - and yours have a great one!


----------



## wildhorse (Oct 22, 2006)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Yes Purebred Nubian breeders are elistest snobs, we stare down our roman noses at the mere thought of Americans.
> 
> Vicki



Up until now I had no idea that I was an elistest snob...oh well if you say so.:bow:


----------



## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

It was a bit of sarcasm on Vicki's behalf....:lookout:
If you spend time on some groups and on NubianTalk you will notice that those who breed only Purebreds and insist on only Purebred are considered elitist snobs.

In the Nubian world, it would not be surprising to see Boer in the background of an American Nubian, even though, ethically, there should be nooo type of goat in the genetic background that is not a dairy breed.
To avoid the chances of buying a doe or buck that is not truly dairy, you go with purebreds...
Except that if someone wants to be dishonest, they will find a way.

The difference between an American and a Purebred is that the Purebred has registered Purebred descendants on all sides back to the original "Nubians" (which are, of course, originally a coposite breed just like all others).
An American, for one reason or another can not claim the same. This can be because at one point a relative was a goat of another breed, or in the case of the above LaMancha, a parent was never registered. Another possibility is that the kid resulted from a doe being exposed to more than one buck and instead of spending the $120 needed for DNA testing, the breeder chose to record the kid as 50% with the sire unknown. This, of course, would have been the case more often before DNA testing was readily available.
Once that lack of purebred status shows up anywhere in the pedigree, the goat will always be an American at most. 
I have a couple of does who are out of a Purebred dam, and I figure out of a Purebred sire as well, but they do not have papers (I'm working on that one). For me, I don't care if the papers I end up with are simply 50% with the dam listed. I am more interested in the genetic make-up of does. As I start to try and delve into the genetics behind Nubians I like to have as much information as possible. To me, the papers give me that option. 
I currently only have three papered goats on the place out of 141 head. Both of my Nubians are Purebred (and I would not likely buy an American buck due to reduced sale value later). I have one NOA Alpine doe. Beyond that I have registration forms for two Fullblood Boer bucks in my filing cabinet and I have over a dozen does/doelings that need to be recorded as 50% or 75% Nubian and a couple that could easily go grade if I felt the need.
Now, there is a 10 year old American Nubian doe out there in the herd. She has papers, but the person I purchased her from has not had a chance to track down the papers yet. I can put in her registration number and use the planned pedigree option. So her doeling out of my Purebred Nubian has not been registered yet.

There isn't the same stigma attached to Americans in the other breeds. 

Nubians are very easy to come by so people can afford to be pickier about what they buy and keep.

It also depends on your area. In this area, papers don't mean much.


----------



## Leo (Feb 7, 2006)

dosthouhavemilk, very well said. and Vicki may sound harsh, but she gives sage advice. 
In our area at least people regard Americans the same as a grade or scrub goat. There are many fine Americans but they just don't sell as well or as high of a price as purebreds. And as dosthouhavemilk, it's mostly a Nubian thing.
Megan


----------



## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

redtartan, first and foremost, you breed what you like. you have to go out and do chores every day, you have to like what you see. although purebred nubians are getting a higher price than the counter part, americans have their market as well. 
the high priced animals are sold from breeders that are many years in the goat busyness, showing, have appraisal and are on milk test. start out with high dollar goats, and you will notice that you still need some years and show and appraisal to get the same price. i know at least from one breeder that still has the barn full with high priced PB nubians . no guaranty for selling better and more
so, not all that shines is gold and the american sure has her place in this world.
have fun with breeding those beautiful animals, no matter which side, and enjoy their rich milk.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I have a couple of Americans & I love them! Great milk goats. Not everyone breeds for show & in my case the papers don't matter. I want a goat that will give me milk. I have a Boer/Lamancha cross that is an awesome milk goat. No, she doesn't & won't ever have papers, but I don't care. She puts milk on the table & that's why I have her. Around here people won't pay a lot of money for a goat, purebred or not. I am not worried about winning in a show ring. I am breeding for a nice homestead milk goat & for that, Americans do the job just as well. This also allows for other people like me to get a nice goat without paying a fortune. I sell to the people that are looking for a goat for milk. I have heard the arguments that it costs just as much to feed a non-papered goat as a papered one. That is true, but it also costs to get those papers & for someone only wanting goats for their own personal use, it is crazy to pay hundreds of dollars for a goat. If you never plan to show then I see no need to pay top dollar for a goat. The show people seem to be the only ones that get the high dollars for their kids. I don't have time to show nor a desire to drag my goats everywhere & expose them to who knows what. I'll stick with my backyard milkers. And for the record, most of mine are Purebred, including my bucks. I still don't charge a fortune for my goats like some do. As long as they pay their way with kid sales & giving us milk, I am OK with them being whatever.


----------



## hobbyfarmer (Oct 10, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe
> ............
> 
> No such thing. If she is a purebred (full blood is boer terms) but non-papered she is a grade. If you breed her up, her great granddaughters can be Amercian. It's unethical to refer to your stock as purebred or registered without paperwork to back it up. Vicki


Vicki- The OP didn't refer to her yearling as purebred. Where I live, to refer to a goat as "purebred but no papers" is improper. Full-blooded means just that - "both parents are the same breed but the offspring is not registered" and that goes for dairy goats, horses, cattle, dogs, cats, whatever. To say "purebred" in our neck of the woods automatically implies "registered". 

Fortunately, ADGA does not rule the world and we are all allowed the luxury of interchanging any of these terms when we want. 

RedTartan- I have owned purebred Nubians and American Alpines. In the area where I live the purebreds don't bring any more money than the Americans. If I wanted to invest mega bucks in traveling and showing both purebreds and Americans, I could probably have gotten more money for the purebred kids by selling them at shows but since I don't have a big budget for showing and I have zero interest in traveling very far to do it anyway I don't see a big difference. I had to sell my PB Nubian doelings for around $250 each just to get them moved before winter and I just sold off my American Alpines for more than that the day after I advertised them. IMO, you have to get pretty seriously into showing and production testing to invest enough in your herd that the little bit of price difference would matter when it comes time to sell kids or you would have to maintain a huge herd and be living off of kid sales. I don't know that for certain and of course it's likely to be different in your area but that's just been my experience with the two.

Good Luck!


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

You all have made some good points. Bottom line is what are your goals? And if you are selling, who is going to pay premium prices?
My purebred is not show quality. I just wanted a Nubian. The rest are Boers. 
So far all 50% kids from this doe have gone like hotcakes, with one yrling Grand Reserve. But no one wants to pay 250 for her. So she goes, along with her sister for 100 each, at that price new owner will have to pay for papers.


----------



## LOC (Sep 10, 2007)

My American's bring more money than my "Purebred" Nubians do. Go figure. Does it matter in the grand scheme of things? No, not in the least.


----------



## angelynbelle (Jul 2, 2009)

I have heard all the discussion on the American and Purebred Nubians and I am still just a bit confused. I accidently purchased an American Nubian buck last year. I was desperate to get my does bred, I knew AI wasn't going to work for me my first year and had a bad experience breeding out my 2 Alpines. So I bought this buck not understanding his pedigree and the seller did not clue me in even though she knew it was my first year. We anyway, now 2 of my Purebred does were bred to him before I finally realized it and purchased a Purebred Buck, Jar Jar, who is actually from Lonesome Does in Texas and we are quite excited to see what he produces. Well anyway I got 2 beautiful babies from the American and 2 are doelings. My daughter wants to show them at the local county fair. I am wondering if she can only show in the open class or can she show in the Purebred classs, I am not sure if they mean registered or actually registered and purebred. I plan on keeping them for my mom's dairy program which doesn't involve registered dairy goats, just nice milk goats. But I learned a lot, that is for sure and now I have not been able to sell him when I make sure people understand what they are getting they run the other way, lol. I guess I should have done that too!:stars:


----------



## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

There are people who are out there striving to dispel the 'purebred myth'. And it was not until a few years ago that an American Nubian became National CH Nubian. Both purebreds and Americans have blue papers in ADGA.

The purebred Nubian gene pool is getting to dangerously small. There has been talk of opening the herd book and allowing animals that meet certain guidelines to become purebreds. After all, how pure is pure? 

The Anglo-Nubian certainly was not a purebred animal in the beginning in UK. All American really means is that a goat that was not purebred Nubian was graded up to be an American. This could have 15-20 generations back, and all the rest of the goats in the pedigree are purebreds. Again, how pure is pure?

The fact is that you do not milk the papers. Ears and faces on a purebred do not always meet breed standard. Keep what you like and don't get caught up in the form it takes.


----------



## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

What is amazing is how those with Purebreds feel one way and those with Americans who desperately want part of the purebred pie, say another. So in the end isn't it about marketing and not about genetic pool size  American Nubians in ADGA, and it's the only place the registers American nubians are not an improvement, will not widen the nubian gene pool, because they are mostly using purebred bucks. Prove your Americans like the American Alpine has, then and only then are you an asset to the book.

Sorry for those on HT who couldn't care less about ADGA and it's politics, but couldn't let Betsy's post go unanswered in memorium or at least until the next purge of posts on here  Vicki


----------



## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Most everyone I've met seems uninterested in bothering to send in their paperwork on their goats. We have, and most everything we own is AGS or ADGA. The older man who disbudded for us is in his 70s has a gorgeous herd of Alpines. All of his foundation stock came with their kid paperwork. All of the kids he has sold could have been registered, but he said he didn't see any point. . .couldn't milk the paper. Of course, that makes sense and his buyers don't care, but ALL of those kids are purebred, papers or no. 
Now, I like having the papers. My Arabs, my goats, and dog - they are mostly all registered.
Now, my Jersey heifer was bought with me not knowing how the AJCA worked, and she is actually ID as a Jersey with a registered sire and a grade dam. The AJCA will register her daughter's heifers as full blooded, registered Jerseys. . .I intended to buy only a registered heifer, but I messed up there. On the upside, she is SO much better looking than the registered heifers I've found since, I'd take her over them anyday.
I like having the purebred papers, myself, though. . .for whatever it is worth.


----------



## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

As a bit of an update. I was able to get the ten year old American Nubian mentioned above into my name and her two daughters and now one granddaughter will have/already have papers.
The others I didn't get so lucky on. Their daughters started out at 50% Nubian and I already have an American Nubian doeling from that line. I've also recorded a fair number of 50% and a couple of the 75% Nubian doelings.
I'm an American Nubian breeder that isn't interested in seeing the Nubian herdbook opened. I guess I tend to be against the norm. It irks me that AJCA allows crossbreeds back into the herdbook. I'd rather they have an "American" category like the ADGA. So maybe my purist snobby ways come from that. The family has been raising registered Jerseys since the late 1800s.
I plan to add my first Purebred Nubian doe(lings) this year. 
Unfortunately, I am not likely going to get more for their daughters than I do for my others.
Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised...assuming I get to the point where I am willing to let some go. lol


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think those who have wonderful goats, but really don't care about all the paper are the blessed ones, not ones to feel sorry for.

As said above, you can't milk paper.

Many of us on this board are backyard homesteaders with dairy goats in order to provide food and enrich our lives in other ways. We don't show, and we don't weigh the milk every day. We focus our lives in different directions.

I do have three Alpines with papers, but from different organizations. I have LaManchas with papers from different organizations. I tattoo all my goats, paper or not. Paper and tattoos help me travel more easily, due to border inspections.

To each his own.

Go hug a goat!:happy:


----------



## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

On a note, I think it is just fair to remember that many animals are purebreeds and haven't been registered. A lack of papers doesn't indicate they aren't a purebred animal, just that one can't often prove they are. . .as in Elmer's case, with the Alpines. It would be incorrect to assume an unregistered, American or grade animal has to be crossedbred.
I rescued an Arab mare that came with foal papers. She wasn't registered because no one cared to send them in. She was 12 by the time I rescued her. It would have cost MUCH more than she was worth to register her, but regardless, she was a purebred any one with the papers.


----------



## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

I just bought 2 (soon to be 3) that are being registered as Native on Appearance because the original owner never took the time to register them - then couldn't find the paperwork when the person I am getting them from rescued them from her and then they were just never obtained. I'm ok with it - and so are my daughters who will still be showing them in the local 4-H show ring. They just want to have fun - and we just want the milk.

Now - with my LGD dogs - I don't mess with it and people who have crosses sometimes just drop the dog at the shelter because it didn't "do it's job"..... I know some people who have crosses that are GREAT LGD's - but then some who seem to expect something out of a breed that really has no interest (like my chubby mutt who is something but we have no idea what)....


----------



## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Nubian breeders tend to be the snobbiest about purebred status. There are a few people in other dairy breeds that will only work with purebreds, but most work with Americans. American Saanens have just as much status as purebreds--after all, our Americans show with the purebreds in the same classes, and often beat the purebreds. We have a wider genepool in the American Saanens than available with the purebred Saanens. There are not many purebred herds that I would consider using a buck out of.

When I had a Nubian, however, I always bred her to a purebred Nubian (except when I bred her to a Saanen) If I had kept the Saanen/Nubian crosses, I probably would have eventually bred them to a LaMancha rather than breeding to either Saanen or Nubian. I never did that, however, because I sold everything with Nubian blood. 

For those who are still confused at the difference between "Purebred" and "American" goats, a "Purebred" is a goat where 100% of the ancestors can be traced back to either original imports of that breed, or imported goats of that breed considered to be purebred by the goat registry of the country from which they where imported (as long as ADGA recognizes that registry). An "American" is a goat that has one or more ancestors which were either not registered or of a different breed, but there have been several generations of breeding to American or Purebred stock in which every animal for a specified number of generations meets the standard for that breed. Both "Americans" and "Purebreds" have blue papers, and both show in the same classes.

A goat with blue papers, whether "American" or "Purebred" is going to be more valuable than an unregistered goat because you can trace the ancestry and look up performance records. A goat with either blue or brown papers with strong performance records in the immediate pedigree is most valuable. Any doe with either blue (American or purebred) or brown (experimental or grade) can be shown in an American Dairy Goat Association show. When you purchase a goat without papers, even if it looks exactly like a particular breed, you have no idea what to expect because you do not have any official records (unless you purchased from a dairy that does DHI testing on unregistered does).


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

saanengirl said:


> For those who are still confused at the difference between "Purebred" and "American" goats, a "Purebred" is a goat where 100% of the ancestors can be traced back to either original imports of that breed, or imported goats of that breed considered to be purebred by the goat registry of the country from which they where imported (as long as ADGA recognizes that registry). An "American" is a goat that has one or more ancestors which were either not registered or of a different breed, but there have been several generations of breeding to American or Purebred stock in which every animal for a specified number of generations meets the standard for that breed. Both "Americans" and "Purebreds" have blue papers, and both show in the same classes.


Okay, this is what I was looking for when I started reading the thread. Brass tacks. 

SO, just to make sure I have this right:
Purebred Nubian = registered ancestry 

American Nubian = undocumented ancestry

Is that correct?


----------



## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Regardless, I want an Australian Nubian - lol!


----------



## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

To Pony- Sort of- all blue papered goats have 'documented' ancestry.

The purebreds trace their 'pure-ness' to the original imports of that particular breed when they stepped of the boat into the US.

American (purebreds) may have an ancestor who is not reg., another breed, etc., but they still have blue papers that detail their pedigrees- the goat brought into the American's pedigree may be 10 or 20+ generations back. 

Again, how pure is pure?


----------



## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

There was a well known 'purebred' Australian Saanen imported here back in the 70's by Harvey Considine named Wariere Kiwi.

By Australian standards he was purebred. By US standards he was American. He went into the general US Saanen gene pool and had purebred and American offspring. He threw Sables. And he deconstructed udders. But his get did better by him and he did have a positive effect on the US Saanen herd.

So, a purebred Nubian form OZ may not be in fact purebred by US standards.


----------



## canadiangirl (Jul 25, 2004)

"It would be incorrect to assume an unregistered, American or grade animal has to be crossedbred."
I think it is actually the other way around...assume she is. Years ago I bought a "purebred but no papers" Alpine - I used a registered purebred buck on her- she kidded with kids who had floppy airplane ears. If you don't have paperwork to say what the animal genetics were, assume the worst and pay accordingly. It doesn't mean they are a bad animal but new people should understand the difference so they are not overpaying, as I did, for the unknown. BTW I still have grade goats but also purebreds too.


----------



## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Pony said:


> Okay, this is what I was looking for when I started reading the thread. Brass tacks.
> 
> SO, just to make sure I have this right:
> Purebred Nubian = registered ancestry
> ...


Pony, not exactly. A purebred animal has 100% documented ancestry from the original imports (or more recent imports that are recognized as purebred). 

An American animal has 87.5-99.9% documented ancestry, and all ancestors for the previous three generations (and the animal itself) meet breed standard. 

An Experimental will have 89-100% documented ancestry, but be from different breeds (or be a purebred or American animal that does not meet breed standard--Sables were registered as experimentals until they had their own herd book). 

A recorded grade will have less than 87.5% documented ancestry, or have more documented ancestry but not have three or more generations where 100% of the animals meet breed standard. It can also occur when there are three generations that meet breed standard but the doe who would be first generation American does not meet breed standard.


----------



## valcwby01 (Dec 15, 2009)

WOW***I thought Angoras and Boers were political. I now thank my lucky stars NOT to have milkers!?!?! Don't you all tire of this? I mean what does it have to do with ANYTHING wether or not they are "purebred" or "American". IM DARN PROUD TO BE AMERICAN!! LOL Of course, all I got is a birth certificate!!:run:


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

valcwby01 said:


> WOW***I thought Angoras and Boers were political. I now thank my lucky stars NOT to have milkers!?!?! Don't you all tire of this?


It doesn't bother me at all, because I am just plain not involved in it.

When I wanted goats, I looked high and low, and found someone knowledgeable and experienced, who cared enough to make sure her goats went to good homes and who has fantastic follow-up. (Ozark Jewels.)

My goats have papers (and I really need to dig those up so I can register the kids), but I'm not going to go crazy if they have the right shade of blue paper. They're healthy, well-bred, wonderful goats. That's what I wanted, and that's what I got.


----------



## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

valcwby01 said:


> WOW***I thought Angoras and Boers were political. I now thank my lucky stars NOT to have milkers!?!?! Don't you all tire of this? I mean what does it have to do with ANYTHING wether or not they are "purebred" or "American". IM DARN PROUD TO BE AMERICAN!! LOL Of course, all I got is a birth certificate!!:run:


Three?! registeries and you think dairy goat owners are worse? lol
I have yet to even bother papering my Boers and crosses. Way too rich ($) for my taste. I have a registered Fullblood Boer buck only so when I go to sell him he might have a better chance of being placed. Though I don't know if I'll sell him that route or not.
Politic are found in all breeds. It is just the way it is.
I really am not too concerned about papers, except that the Purebred Polled Nubian genepool is just sooo small. My goal is to increase the genepool and to do so, I need those Blue papers that say Purebred on them in the Nubian world.
If it weren't for that, I wouldn't care. Even with that in mind, I've been looking for Purebred Nubian does to add to the breeding program for years and have not added any. This year, one or two will be added.


----------



## valcwby01 (Dec 15, 2009)

I am SOOO glad my tongue in cheek humor did not go missed!! THANKS PONY AND DOSTHOUHAVEMILK!! Dost, I agree, all breeds have their politics and it SUCKS. I mean we are talking animals here, people, not saving the human race from extinction!! I only paper my animals for LOCAL shows. And the only reason for this is because 80-90% of my sales have been generated this way. And also, I look at shows as a social event to get together with likeminded folks and share ideas, similar to this forum, only in person. THE BEST PART OF SHOWS IS BEATING THOSE FOLKS WHO ARE THE CUTTHROAT SHOW PEOPLE!! It has gotten to where I don't care if I am next to last, as long as they are LAST!! Yup, I'm sadistic that way!!:smiley-laughing013: But my opinion is that the paper is WORTHLESS unless you have the animal to back it up!! PERIOD!!!!:bdh: You can have an animal papered up the ying yang and back to the garden of Eden, but unless they can perform the job they were bred to do, IT IS WORTHLESS!! And let's remember the term, HYBRID VIGOR!! Many of the "grade" individuals tend to outperform their "purebred, papered" counterparts. And this is coming from a seedstock producer!!:bouncy:


----------



## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

I have to admit I was considering buying a Nubian, purebred or American just to cross with my Lamancha buck....I want the great milk of the Nubian with the great milk of the Lamancha to make great milk Numanchas....plus the Roman Nose and funny little ears make an awesome drowsy look....to me what matters is milk production and an animal that is going to have the longevity to produce for many years, the papers come second. After all my best milker is a Lamancha Tog who gave 6.5lbs this morning at 13 days fresh.


----------



## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

valcwby01 said:


> I am SOOO glad my tongue in cheek humor did not go missed!! THANKS PONY AND DOSTHOUHAVEMILK!! Dost, I agree, all breeds have their politics and it SUCKS. I mean we are talking animals here, people, not saving the human race from extinction!! I only paper my animals for LOCAL shows. And the only reason for this is because 80-90% of my sales have been generated this way. And also, I look at shows as a social event to get together with likeminded folks and share ideas, similar to this forum, only in person. THE BEST PART OF SHOWS IS BEATING THOSE FOLKS WHO ARE THE CUTTHROAT SHOW PEOPLE!! It has gotten to where I don't care if I am next to last, as long as they are LAST!! Yup, I'm sadistic that way!!:smiley-laughing013: But my opinion is that the paper is WORTHLESS unless you have the animal to back it up!! PERIOD!!!!:bdh: You can have an animal papered up the ying yang and back to the garden of Eden, but unless they can perform the job they were bred to do, IT IS WORTHLESS!! And let's remember the term, HYBRID VIGOR!! Many of the "grade" individuals tend to outperform their "purebred, papered" counterparts. And this is coming from a seedstock producer!!:bouncy:


You are AWESOME Ira!:bouncy:


----------



## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

You can have an animal papered up the ying yang and back to the garden of Eden, but unless they can perform the job they were bred to do, IT IS WORTHLESS!! And let's remember the term, HYBRID VIGOR!! Many of the "grade" individuals tend to outperform their "purebred, papered" counterparts. And this is coming from a seedstock producer!!
.....................

It sounds really good, makes you want to stand up and wave a flag or something...but in reality their counterparts sell for about 5 times the amount of their grade sisters, everything being equal. Makes also very little difference in pets, but they are livestock, a registered purebred livestock always outsells the unregistered the American or the grade. Hybrid vigor is only seen in the first cross as we know. So from a business standpoint starting with healthy purebred stock is simply wise. Even in meat goats, it adds one more selling niche to your business.

Makes little sense to do the same work on a grade doe, trim the same feet, feed her the same, get the same amount of milk and then sell her kids for soo much less, and her bucklings rarely sell...shoot try to sell an American Nubian buckling sometime  It's not political it's the facts. Vicki


----------



## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

Vicki,
I agree with you, especially on the buckling thing. Carla our Tog Lamancha is registered Experimental and her kids if they were bucks would sell for $50.00 bucks at most as wethers. Her does on the other hand will sell for around $200.00, which here is great for a kid, on an unfinished doe (Which we hope to finish this year). So like I said she is proving herself in the milk bucket and has proven herself in the show ring, but yes her papers matter or her kids wouldn't be worth anything, besides the cuteness factor. 

Sarah


----------



## valcwby01 (Dec 15, 2009)

Vicki
As they say, one is born EVERY minute and will soon be parted with their money!! For those of you not reading between the lines, this refers to a fool. If that many people REALLY care if the "paper" reads Purebred, and not American, then you have tapped into a FOOL'S market!!!!! Keep milking that gravy train, sister!!! You are obviously selling to a population of fools!!
I do NOT mean this personally, towards you. I have read a lot of your posts and you have GREAT advice on husbandry. On this issue, however, I cannot disagree with you more. And if this is the mindset of Nubian folk as a general whole, I have to question the logic of their opinion, then, of what makes a good quality goat. If it is all in the papers, so to speak, I can dispute that with scientific evidence. 
THIS SAME ARGUMENT IS USED BY BREEDERS OF COTSWOLD SHEEP, of which I breed. ACRA seems to think that they have the more "genetically pure" strain of Cotswolds. HOGWASH!! I have bought ACRA and CBA registered sheep, and have CBA individuals beat the PANTS off ACRA individuals, UNDER AN ACRA JUDGE!!!! My point is, the paper on the animal is only as good as the animal that paper goes with. Purebred or American, ACRA or CBA, black or white, etc. does not matter, at least in this part of the country, if the animal cannot back it up. If I were you and your group, I would start questioning my line of thinking on how I spend my money, given the fact, according to an earlier post, an "American" beat all of your "Purebreds" in a National show!!! I don't know dairy goats, I am learning meat goat (boer), and have gotten to the point I can "school a few" on Angoras, but I DO KNOW LIVESTOCK AND SEEDSTOCK from over 30 years experience, as I started my own breeding program my second year in 4-H and won several awards at the state level for my program, second year into it. Therefore, mame, I believe I do know this issue, dairy or not!!


----------



## FMO3 (Nov 22, 2009)

I have lurked here for years. And this thread has got me to wondering a few things. 

I will first do an introduction and some background of myself. I live in Wisconsin, I am a dairy goat farmer. Right now, I am milking about 650 does expanding to 800 next year. I have "grades" they all come from papered stock, the bucks that I buy have papers. Do I transfer them...not in a heart beat. The reason, I dont look at the papers twice a day, feed them 365 days a year. I could care less if they even have papers on them.

Now, some think that just because they have papers they are good stock. But, that is not the case. Just because they have a pedigree papers on them, that does not amount to a hill of beans. How does the dam milk, how does the granddam milk. Those are the questions that I want to know. I could really careless that they have won their champion status. You just need to win 3 shows of 10 animals. Well...it could happen that they was up against the same SMALL number of animals. I have been around the show circuit...more than I care about. What matters to me is how well they milk, and how they are going to put money in my pocket. I LOVE goats, but, I dont love them so much that I will go to the poor house.

As far as grades don't sell...that is hog wash!!! I will pay the same amount of money for a grade as a purebred. Why, with grades most of them have only one way of staying at someone place. They have to earn their keep. They are not kept because, they are the great great great great grand daughter of the National show in 1962. They are kept on how they work. Also, I sell about 200 head of doe kids a year for $350 a head at 8 weeks old. The reason being, I have DHIA milk records on the herd for the last 15 years. And when I started 15 years ago, I only bought from tested herds. So, some animals I am sure you could go back 20 to 30 years with milk records. As they say...the proof is in the pudding.


----------



## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

FMO3 said:


> The reason being, I have DHIA milk records on the herd for the last 15 years. And when I started 15 years ago, I only bought from tested herds. So, some animals I am sure you could go back 20 to 30 years with milk records. As they say...the proof is in the pudding.


Ahh but that is why I have purebreds with papers. I can look at the generations of * milkers and get an understanding of what I can expect, better than someone telling me she is a gallon a day milker. :grit:


----------



## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

oh, i'm a happy fool  
there are some nice americans out there but not in my herd and there never will be one either.


----------



## valcwby01 (Dec 15, 2009)

susanne said:


> oh, i'm a happy fool
> there are some nice americans out there but not in my herd and there never will be one either.


:bored:Then mame, you will most likely be a detriment to your breed. I don't mean this as a personal attack, so if it seems that way, I apologize. I will admit, I know NOTHING about dairy breeds. However, I don't have to. I have bred and raised MANY a purebred livestock, (duh, I am a seedstock producer) and when breeders try to negate one line of the breed with the only reason being some unwarranted predjudice to where the ancestry comes from, THEY END UP DESTROYING THE BREED!!!:flame: This is why in our Quarter Horses we now test for HYPP, etc. In Suffolk sheep you have spider gene. In a MAJORITY of dog breeds, we have hip dysplasia. Why? Looking at papers instead of animal performance. Now granted, this was not the ONLY reason these genetic "defaults" showed up, but I would bet my entire farm, it was a BIG reason. 
Obviously, your "purebred" vs "American" view does not hold water except in your own egotistical view. Otherwise, an American buck would NOT have beat ALL the purebreds he was shown against. And the logic behind thinking they are worth less is flawed, because I have read a lot of statements on this thread, that some were completely smitten with an individual until they learned they were American!! DUMB DUMB DUMB:gaptooth: That animal should be judged on the individual merits and what he/she is likely to pass on to offspring, not on what the papers say. 
Remember, lines of Royalty "bred" this way of thinking, and from them we get the inheritable disease of anmemia!! Genetics will come around and bite you "elitist snobs" in the backside!!! MARK MY WORD!!:shocked:


----------



## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

valcwby01 said:


> :bored: I don't mean this as a personal attack, (duh, I am a seedstock producer) view does not hold water except in your own egotistical view. Genetics will come around and bite you "elitist snobs" in the backside!!! MARK MY WORD!!:shocked:


and this is not a personal attack??????
my dear, as a seedstock producer you probably know where the money is. LOL
if not, you are fool too 
if you don't know the dairy market, you need to get informed before you attack.
it is every bodies duty to get informed and think about goals before an animal is purchased. 
is it only for my back yard and milk/meat and/or fiber production, it does not matter on what paper the animal is on or what ancestry is behind it.
belonging to the "elitist snobs" i want to breed animals where the production can be traced back a couple of generations. it also matters to me if i get $500 for a kid or only $50.
and if that does not matter to you, you are by far the bigger fool. :sing:


----------



## valcwby01 (Dec 15, 2009)

susanne said:


> and this is not a personal attack??????
> my dear, as a seedstock producer you probably know where the money is. LOL
> if not, you are fool too
> if you don't know the dairy market, you need to get informed before you attack.
> ...


:kiss:No, this is not a personal attack. It is not even meant to be an attack period, except on illogical thinking.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the argument. From my understanding, American Nubians, for the most part, can be traced back a "couple of generations". If I am misunderstanding, then I sincerely apologize. If I am not, then you JUST MADE MY POINT!! You state you want to breed animals where the production can be traced back a "couple of generations". If I am reading this thread correctly, you can still do this on the American Nubian!! Or at least most. 
I had my Biology Professor read this thread also. She has a PhD in Biology, is a registered nurse, and raises livestock also. I thought maybe my being an older college student, my brain was on overload capacity and I was missing something. After all, it does not work as it used to!!:rock:
She agreed with me and seemed to reach the same conclusion, but conceded that we may be understanding this wrong in some way as to what constitutes an American vs. Purebred. If we are correct, though, after the fourth generation, the great-grandparents, the genetic influence has pretty much become negligible and are just "bragging rights" at this point. Therefore, any American that has Purebreds at least four generations back is just as "pure" as the regular Purebred and you are just paying for a name, nothing else. If that is what you want to do with your money, as I stated earlier, there is one born EVERY MINUTE!! :indif: This goes for ANY animal be it dairy, fiber, meat, four legged, two legged, papered, or not. And if I am understanding the "American" vs "Purebred" argument correctly and what constitutes an American Nubian, then mame, I am COMPLETELY informed and KNOW EXACTLY what I am talking about.
As a seedstock producer, I do know the value of the paper. This proves lineage, but as I said, when I go to purchase an animal, anything beyond the fourth generation is just decoration. I aslo know that MANY breeders try to blow smoke to use this bragging right as a selling point. All of whom I have informed that if that is what there price is based on, then pull my other leg since it has bells on it!! 
The OP states that the mother of this little buckling was American, but had won her championship. This is a valid selling point. With a Champion mother, the buckling is coming from a strong genentic standpoint. There is a VERY HIGH probability he has inherited those championship qualities, especially given the fact we are told the individual was very interested, UNTIL THEY LEARNED that the mother was JUST AN AMERICAN NUBIAN. This makes no logical sense and shows the flaw in thinking that I am assuming, from this thread, most Nubian folk would have about breeding and attaining the most from their animals. THERE IS NO LOGICAL ARGUMENT THAT YOU CAN PRESENT THAT WOULD MAKE THIS SEEM LIKE SOUND REASONING WHEN PLANNING A BREEDING PROGRAM!! PERIOD!! And when a producer has a buyer that is genuinely interested in the betterment of the breed, they would be able to see this logic. And for your information, I bet you if you approached your market in this way, you could get the same comprable price for high quality animals. If the prevailing attitude about the American Nubian is the majority, I would educate others to stay away from this breed then, as this attitude and belief will only become the downfall of this wonderful, GORGEOUS, animated breed, as it has to SO MANY OTHER BREEDS OF LIVESTOCK!:Bawling:


----------

