# Trying to decide whether to sell and replace one of our LGD's



## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

We have 2 female LGD's, both 3/4 GP and 1/4 AS. We LOVE them to death, and they are awesome guardians for our farm and livestock! One, in particular, is our "patroller" while the other is our more maternal, stick-with-the-herd gal. Our patroller does an amazing job, and before we had the second girl, she even kept 4 drunk troublemakers from stealing our goats one night. She is amazing, and did I say how awesome she is at protecting? 

OK, so here is my dilemma....she was raised on our first farm, which was much more isolated. Due to the significant number of larger, more aggressive predators, and potential trouble-making folks, we did not discourage her from doing her job at all. Last year, we moved to a new farm. While the farm is larger, and she has much more room to patrol, we are surrounded on 2 sides with neighbors that walk the road along our fence line. We also now have a direct-to-consumer farm business, offer all sorts of classes and farm tours, work with interns, and have frequent visitors around the farm as a result. This girl, awesome as she is, just doesn't seem as suited anymore for this new environment. She has never bitten, but she has given a few too-close-for-comfort warning "snaps" at over-zealous visitors and interns that do something to make "her" chickens squawk. We are thinking it may be time to sell her to a more isolated farm that needs more protection. We have fewer large predators now (mostly overhead and small stuff), no real need for protection from people like we used to, and want what's best for her. We certainly can't fault her for doing her job, but sure hate to loose our best guardian. 

Then, there is the risk that our other girl, or whatever pup we find to replace this girl (we want two), won't be as good at their job. Our other has never truly been tested, but has a personality otherwise perfect for this location (except maybe for her barking...oh well). I think that is my biggest fear. 

What would you do?


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## kalmara (Aug 21, 2011)

Keep her, she is doing her job !!!
She gives a warning - good girl


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

That's a toughy for sure.

Maybe some retraining for her to deal with the increase in friendly two-legged neighbor walking the road? Maybe some retraining for the interns and visitors? 

Oh, you've probably already tried all that, I know you're a good trainer.
Probably not possible to confine her during the days when the visitor load is high?

Sorry, guess I've no good ideas and no similar experience. Best of luck to you tho.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

It is hard to find a good adult LGD- and it takes a while to raise and train a pup. I'd try to exhaust all possibilities before rehoming her. aart mentioned kennelling during the day or maybe confining to interior pasture away from road and visitors during the day? 
My ASD is pretty fierce- acting by the fenceline at the road. imo, my neighbors have to deal with it because there are many more stray dogs on the road than people and its her job to keep my goats safe. My neighbor across the road is very understanding about her barking and activity level. Maybe some of your clients and neighbors are too?


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, maybe this isn't what you want to hear; but I would put that dog *first*! She is doing exactly what you have asked of her. You live in a new place for her and I understand that; but why not put up signs for your customers to leave that dog's charges alone?

Ok you have "interns" and I suspect they will need to be near the animals that LGD has always guarded and thinks are hers..........Still, can't you have a place where those particular people can do their thing without encroaching upon that dog's territory? (Is she running loose?) Since you're running some sort of business and dealing with the public, maybe you could look at the "structures" you are using for that. If it were me, I'd find a way to keep *all* visitors to my place in a protected area, i.e. letting that LGD you're concerned about learn that it is ok for those visitors to be in those particular locations. Is that feasible?


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I agree with the above.
She is doing what you trained her to do her whole life, and now you want to punish her (read take her from the only life she knows), because she is doing it?
We have 2 Pyrs, one is very social, and one is not. We have people come over to buy lambs and what not all the time. If it is necessary to take them into the pastures, I remove the dogs prior. My female is not ok with people she doesn't know messing with "Her" sheep.
If we had a change of circumstance, and had to relocate to a different situation, I would never get rid of her, I would work with it.
This is why so many good actual LGD's end up in shelters, or worse. 
You need to train the people to stay away from her, and what she is guarding, or put up a kennel that she can be placed in while they are there.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You may have fewer problems with two footed baddies_ because_ they see your dog when they come to check out your place in disguise of customers. Give her a place to stay in when you have customers. She should be able to see what is going on, but not be underfoot.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

This is what I needed to hear. I have been going back and forth, with no peace with the idea of selling her. Certainly, I wouldn't be punishing her, (though I don't humanize animals that way some do) and I would have been very selective, but I just wondered if she wouldn't have thrived better in a more remote farm with livestock and not so many visitors. For now, we have been doing as suggested. When we do our farm tours, we put her in the barn. Honestly, it's the children that scare me the most. They just don't get it. Example: We had a family come to purchase a goat recently. We were OUTSIDE the perimeter fence, and the dogs were just looking on, on their side of the fence, not even barking. After a while, I forgot about them. Suddenly, one of the little girls ran over, stuck her hands through the fence and tried to pet them. This dog snapped her warning, scaring the little girl half to death. She did not bite her, certainly, but when the little girl jumped and jerked her hand back, she scraped her hand on the fence and was convinced the dog had bitten her causing the scratch. I realized at that moment how unfortunate it would be if the parents had NOT understood the situation. The dog could have been labeled as a "biter" or who knows? That's the type of thing that has happened.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

She sounds amazing and I would also do whatever it takes to keep her. I have been looking and looking for another one like that, but no luck so far. I need one for goats and chickens and around here they're all with sheep and think chickens are for dinner. I guess I'll have to get a pup, but really wanted to try avoiding that again. Oh, well.

Best of luck with your girl, she sounds awesome!


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Might be a good idea to put up a few signs too as it is a business. Many people don't understand about working dogs and it would be good for parents to get an idea so they keep an eye on their small children and help them to understand. 

I do not allow for visitors to pet my dogs. Only my family and close friends can. Imo just a good practice since they are working dogs - one is for personal protection and the other an LGD. Probably need a couple signs myself for next year when the goats are fresh and more people are coming in.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Redgate, that may actually be your solution, i.e. put up some signs letting the parents know their children are *not to attempt to pet the dogs*. You might even place signs on certain fences in strategic locations telling people NOT TO GET WITHIN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FEET from that fence. If anyone asks why, you can brag on your LGD....  (This might also help should any liability issues arise.)


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## Lady89 (Feb 22, 2014)

the 1st time she bites some one the state can make you put her down and that would be a sad day, you need to think what is best for the dog and that may be a new home or it may not


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

The signs I would think are a must(children must be leashed?haha), as well as maybe segregation of the 'public' part of the farm from the private/working part of the farm. 

Maybe set up a 'petting' and/or demonstration space where you can bring a few animals for the public to interact with that the dog knows is OK with additional training to the new situation? 

Scheduled tours of the private part of the farm with strict rules, signs and maybe even a release form to CYA?

I know you and your pup will figure it out.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

We don't have the option of segregating the farm. Either you are outside the fence or inside of it. Over time, as we clear more land, it will become more feasible, but for now, our pasture literally sits in the middle, with the driveway wrapping around almost 3 sides of it, and the house and barn on one end. There is only one side with no exposure, but it is woodlands. Everything is literally used on an almost daily basis. 

I have a degree in farm management, and one of the think that was pounded into us was liability. One of our sessions discussed the importance of carefully worded signs. There have been previous cases where the dog owner LOST the case due to a sign stating "Beware of Dog." Whether the dog had a history of biting or not, didn't matter. The courts ruled that the fact they hung the signs meant they were aware of the risk and "should have fixed the risk." Sometimes you have to wonder who comes up with this stuff! In any case, we are liking the idea of signs, but need to come up with something other than "Beware of Dogs." Something more educational in nature might be an idea. We have a local sign maker that can do it for us. We just need to come up with the wording. Any ideas or anything you have seen/used? It should probably be quick and the the point. We are thinking something along the lines of "Working Livestock Guardian Dogs: Please Don't Pet." That way, we aren't claiming any risk of aggression, simply asking folks don't pet. Do you think it would get the message across?

I have one other question, I would love some thoughts on. The final "straw" in this issues happened last week. My brother-in-law lives next door and often helps us out on our property. Our dogs know him, and are totally used to him coming in to the pasture to clear an area of timber we have been working on. He is accepted, and they have never given him a problem. Then, last week, as usual, he came into the pasture, this dog ran over to greet him as normal. He petted her as usual, then set to work. He turned around, picked up a branch, and the dog suddenly lunged and grabbed hold of the seat of his pants. He spun around and she grabbed the sleeve of his shirt. He says he felt her teeth oh his arm at one point, but she didn't leave a mark nor break the skin. He probably yelled at her, and she backed down, laid down in front of him, and he froze. She wouldn't take her eyes off him. Right then, another neighbor came walking by with her dog, so Athena ran over to the fence and my BIL made a hasty retreat out the gate, leaving his tools behind. I am baffled by what would have caused this. Again, she clearly COULD HAVE bitten and attacked if she'd wanted to, but she didn't. She was obviously warning him off. There is more to the story, and I suspect he isn't telling us something. He is a drunk, and when drunk, he is not supposed to be on our property. Everyone agrees he was not drunk that morning (we spoke with him and saw him in person). But, I would not surprised if he has taunted her from his side of the fence while drunk. He's already confessed to letting his dogs taunt my dogs by running up and down the fence line barking (yes, this has been a problem. Family is our worst and most troublesome neighbors. I think they feel entitled to do what they want when they want on our property--which is one reason I am glad he now has a healthy respect for my dogs). Nonetheless, it caught me off guard. The only thing I can assume is maybe he had taunted or threatened her with a stick at some point? So that when he picked the stick up she said no more? I realize I may never know the answer, and he now, finally has a enough respect for the dogs (he's literally terrified of them now) that he will no longer go in the pasture without calling ahead and letting us get the dogs first (a request we've been trying to enforce for some time). I'm just wondering if any of you have seen or experienced your dogs turning on someone they know like that. She clearly doesn't like him anymore. Watches him closely through the fence, so I HAVE to assume he has done something he isn't telling us.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

I would much rather trust the judgement of my LGD over the judgement or word of a known drunk relative. I've never known Batt to be wrong about someone. Sam either, and Sam is the house dog.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

We live in a time and culture that does not protect us regardless of carefully worded signs. It is unfortunate, but sometimes we have to asses the liability vs the need for a guardian that potentially bites people. The damage of an injury to an innocent child vs the loss of livestock to a thief. Sure it is hard to get a truly good lgd but that is because everybody that has a hobby farm with $2000 dollars worth of goats is breeding $100 dollar dogs and turning them loose at 8 weeks old because they were born in a goat pen. A law suit will cost considerably more money than driving across the country and buying a proven guardian if you need another. Most of us do have a threat to our livestock in some form of predator but it is seldom human. If the case is human set up surveillance cameras and let law take care of it.


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## Ceilismom (Jul 16, 2011)

Redgate, I would suspect that sending this dog to a new home (which may or may not be the best thing for her, I cannot advise on that aspect of the situation) will not solve the problem you most recently posted. If you bring in another dog and spend the time to train it, what is to stop this drunk idiot from repeating his bad behavior and perhaps ruining another perfectly good LGD? Sure he is terrified of them now, but a little time, a little alcohol, and will he still be smart enough to leave them alone?

DH and I deliberately made the choice to leave family land and business almost a year ago. The problems were not exactly the same as what you're dealing with, but I can tell you that after living with them for 9 years they didn't improve over time.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

hmmm....good point. I didn't even consider the same result with a new dog. This BIL has been nothing but problems. Here's the clincher....We intentionally bought land/farm almost an hour away from all family members because it seems everyone always has drama in families. Lo and behold if MIL and BIL didn't buy the land next door! AAAGH! This place has been our dream for 12 years--blood, sweat, and tears to set it up, and now we have regular issues with their drunkenness. Please don't get me wrong--they have in no way ruined a good dog!! If anything, they have made her a better protector and just somewhat less trusting of the 2 legged potential predators. Personally, I gloated inside knowing he probably got what he deserved when my LGD told him his place! Nonetheless, I just have to hope it was directed at him for a reason. We have been trying to get him to stay off our property since we moved in, with exception of when hubby gives explicit permission. He has refused to abide by that rule, and the sherriff's office (yes, we have even had to get them involved!) have said it's literally all or nothing. If we have any relationship with them (i.e. have them to dinner, let the kids visit, allow him to walk down to pick something up from hubby, etc.), then we can never report him for trespassing. If it were just him, it'd be easier, but both hubby and BIL are trying to take care of MIL, so that adds a level of difficulty. So far, hubby is trying to avoid starting a family feud that could result in who-knows what kind of trouble for us and our farm. He is planning a big talk with them both, but we haven't caught both of them sober and home simultaneously in over a week now. SOOOOO frustrating, but that's a whole other can of worms!


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I don't care if it is a LGD, personal protection dog, working dog, pet or what, I find very little lenience for dogs snapping or biting children. Children are not able to make mature decisions, if your inviting them to your property with a dangerous dog (yes your dog is dangerous, next time it could be the kids face and not hand thats "snapped" at) its your responsibility to keep the kids safe. There is no proof the drunk has ever taunted this dog, or that he struck it with a stick, excuses and assumptions are being made in an attempt to justify unprovoked bites. The fact is the dog has learned now that snapping, nipping or biting people gets results and it has little reservation about do it. It may not have broken the skin yet, but its just a matter of time before it does. A sign is not going to protect you from a law suit.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

If it were me in that position, I would not hesitate to let those relatives know they are not welcome on my place *any time*. I would tell them that it is because of their drinking and possibility of liability issues. *I would not back down but stand my ground!

*You have enough to be concerned about in the development of your homestead with the public aspect and the LGD. Since you don't have an internal fence/structure that can help you protect your LGD, you could get a kennel for for when public guests are on grounds. Or you could get a strong chain for your LGD. However, if I'm understanding your situation correctly, you are letting strangers around the stock your LGD is guarding; so whatever way you stop your dog from taking care of its charges, *that is not good for your LGD.*


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

Awe.....It's a sad choice you're faced with! Either way you will have regrets.
But to me it looks like your new farm with business and all the strangers around is not the best place for your dog and the way she has been trained and worked. It seems like your dog is stressed by all the extra activity from strangers, and is just acting on instinct and training and thinking they're invading her territory. Dogs don't really understand fences but they do know territories and that is why the small children and the dogs and people on the other side of the fences drive her nuts. 

Maybe you need to do some extra fencing in a hurry to keep her and her charges in a private remote area as far as possible from your new venture.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

No, apparently I wasn't clear. NO ONE from the general public/customers is allowed in our pastures or with the dogs without us. Dogs get to know interns and longer visitors who sometimes come to work here, so on occasion, they may go in, but even that is unusual. We also used to allow BIL in to work in a front section where no livestock were housed, but that changed when he proved irresponsible. The problem with him has been getting him to respect our demands to stay off since. He feels entitled to our property. There's a lot more I'm not going into here, and it is a very tough and touchy situation. Even after I padlocked my gates, we found him working in the timber (he likes to work when he's drunk), and discovered he was jumping over the gates. (YES, I was mad!) 

Our farm is set up with a very solid 2x4 wire perimeter fence, then subdivided with temporary hot wire as needed. It is designed so the dogs can roam under the hot wire to get to the different sets of animals. It works well. If we are expecting a farm tour or such, then, since this dog began showing more caution (I don't even like to use the word aggression, as she is still a sweet-heart), then we put her in the barn. Fact is, they are livestock guardians, and she is doing her job. It's not as though she charges the fence and snaps and snarls at everyone. To the contrary. She barks, sure, but she is generally very accepting. She doesn't appreciate them coming in to her gate without us, but then again, isn't that her job? And in the past, even when people have, she generally just sniffs around them and walks off. You can just see in her eye she is more wary. As a result, I am more cautious now. I don't want people the dogs don't know going into my gates without me anyway. I have draft horses, cattle, and other livestock. 

We have 2 LGD's, full sisters, but very different personalities and upbringings. One will flop over and expose her belly to anyone that reaches out to pet her. Pretty useless as a guardian towards people, but stands her ground well for predators of the animal variety. She absolutely adores people, and I never lock her up. BUT, I'm not sure that's what I want. This dog I wrote about originally is sweet, and very loving to her family and people she knows (hence the shock at her putting BIL in his place--he HAD to have done something to lead up to it!). However, she doesn't appreciate someone she doesn't know--of any age--just waltzing in or reaching hands through to pet her face or whatever. She has growled or snapped, I think 3 times total when folks have done that. Never bitten. But she has also had dealings with drunk troublemakers, and not just BIL. We had 4 folks arrested in our woods one night at our last farm, trying to steal our goats. This dog prevented it--without ever biting. As far as BIL, I don't yet have hard evidence (though we are considering video surveillance due to other issues), we have witness him doing things. He runs his dog up and down our fence line to taunt our dogs. He and MIL get drunk, walk outside toward my fence line, and yell, scream, and wave their arms threateningly at my dogs. Shoot, when they're drunk, even visitors to my house get screamed at. It's become a nightmare for me. Hubby is being much nicer than I'd like him to be, and my hands are tied there. He's coming around though, and realizing how much trouble it's causing. With all this, I can't blame the dog for not totally trusting people. I am also not sure that's a bad thing. She is protecting her charges. I am a dog trainer. In dog language, when a person bends over a dog, reaches out without the dog's acceptance or permission, and enters their personal space, they are a threat, period. Submissive dogs may not care, dogs with a great deal of socialization have adapted, but many good LGDs see such behavior just as they'd see a coyote stalking the fence line. I can't punish the dog for that. 

My concern here is the people and children who refuse to heed warnings--verbal or otherwise. One of the 3 times she snapped was another child on a tour. The dog was locked up INSIDE the barn. All visitors had been verbally educated prior to entering the gates on our LGD's and how we'd prefer they just ignore and DO NOT let your children reach out and treat them like a pet, because they aren't. They are working dogs. (Although I have 5 young children and we have had many neighbor children over and the dogs are totally fine--we just like to put a little respect into visitors). Nonetheless, one girl on this tour went into our barn, reached through the stall rails and tried to grab the dog by the ears. She snapped at her (didn't bite). 

It is an unfortunate situation when a dog is doing what we want it to do, is good at it's job, and is following it's instinct to guard, but it's always people that blow a good thing! People who don't listen, people who assume they know better or are the exception. It really bugs me sometimes how much we have to worry about liability and adapt for stupidity. I realize there is no easy answer here. I am literally forced to choose between a good dog that protects my livestock from predators and idiots, or a more passive dog that may not be as good of a guardian, but ensures the idiots' safety (and FTR, I don't consider the children idiots, rather the parents who come to the farm and don't supervise the children or enforce our requests). It's very irritating. Sadly, I fear that I may have no choice but to re-home to a more isolated farm without so many visitors. It just stinks.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm wondering, can you simply re-home the Brother in Law? 
It sounds like he has for sure done something, I hate Jackwagon relatives.
Sorry the situation has gotten so out of hand.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

When your BIL picked up the weapon, your dog responded appropriately. She could have ripped his arm off, but she warned him, and warned him harder.

Parents may understand that you do not want dogs or goats petted, but children will do it anyway. You can set up a petting area, or double fence the area people come in so that hands cannot reach the dogs or goats. I&#8217;d suggest electric fencing, but you don&#8217;t want a toddler to get zapped. You could have something for the children to do, a maze of straw bales, for instance. Also, if you have something they can pet it would distract them from the big dogs and goats. Maybe a smaller child friendly dog that they can give a little treat to (you supply the treat). People love feeding animals treats.


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## kalmara (Aug 21, 2011)

Could you put a muzzle on her when you have people at your property ?
This girl is only doing her job !!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

How about signs that say, &#8220;Cujo is working, please don&#8217;t pet&#8221; You could even have a sign with two signs &#8220;Cujo is off duty, and Cujo is working&#8221; and of course, she is always working. Ditto for the other dog, but the other dog is always &#8220;off duty&#8221;. It might give a better impression of what you want.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, we thought and talked and slept on it, and finally came to the hard decision to sell. She was our best guardian, so it was not an easy decision. However, we realized that IF she ever actually bit someone--especially a child, we would feel even worse than selling her. She needed a more remote farm with less visitors to worry about, so she could do the job she was trained and bred for. 

She left this morning. I miss her so much already. She is going to a much larger farm that recently lost their matriarch, but has several older LGD pups that aren't yet old enough to trust with the stock. They have mountain lion and major coyote and **** problems, so she will be free to do what she does best. We have given them a 30-day guarantee in case of personality clashes or whatever, but once they adjust to each other, I suspect they will all be fine. It was interesting, though...they drove up, total strangers, and she didn't bark once! She just stood at the gate looking at them, wagging her tail, and accepted them immediately. She's never done that before.


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## sportweasel (Jul 23, 2012)

I am glad you were able to come to a decision and I pray that you have peace with it. I think your concerns regarding legal liability are well founded even though we all know your dog was just doing her job. The law may not see it that way and that is the reality you must deal with. I read your post when you first posted it and, although I didn't have time to comment then, I have thinking about you often since and what a difficult decision you had before you. I prayed that you would be given wisdom and find peace in whatever decision you made. I hope that you and your husband will also find ways to work through the difficulties with your family. Blessings to you.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm so sorry you had to sell her, but it does sound like a good situation for her.
I still think re-homing the BIL is a good option as well....


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

I wish!! (about the BIL)! Perhaps I could re-home the MIL at the same time. I know it's wrong, but I have asked hubby to delay telling them that our LGD was sold since BIL is staying out of the pasture in fear of her. I know they will figure it out. If all works out correctly, then I will have a new, male LGD to replace her soon (still looking for the right one). They are going to be so thrilled when they find out she is gone. And so NOT thrilled when a new one comes to replace her. :heh:


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

redgate said:


> ........ It was interesting, though...they drove up, total strangers, and she didn't bark once! She just stood at the gate looking at them, wagging her tail, and accepted them immediately. She's never done that before.


Meant to be!


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