# Now What Do You Think? Zimmerman Bloody Head Pics



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Don't open this if the sight of blood makes you wonky; being a paramedic I lose sight of what bothers some folks, so while these don't look overly icky and vomit inspiring to me, they might bother some.

If you choose not to open the link, I will describe it: a photo of Zimmerman showing some head trauma. If you DO open it, I would point your attention to the upper right side of his head, where, on closer inspection, you will see about a 1-1 1/2 inch laceration, deep enough to be gaping a bit. I am unclear as to where the second source of blood flow, that in the left half of his head, is coming from, but I would wager a bet he has another nice laceration there as well, just out of reach of the viewer's eyes in this picture. It lends credence in my mind to the story he tells of having his head bashed into the pavement.

New photo shows George Zimmerman

Now what do you guys think? Change anything?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Not for me.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Nope!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Some will keep talking about the poor quality police video as if this doesn't exist.
*ALL* the evidence supports Zimmerman, but they just won't admit it



> and *gunpowder burns* on his now-infamous hoodie.


More *forensics* supporting Zimmerman



> A lawyer for the Martin family discounted the photo as proof that Zimmerman's story holds up.
> "How bad could it have been if they didn't take him to the hospital didn't stitch him up," Benjamin Crump said in a statement to ABC News


You'd think a "lawyer" would KNOW "self defense" is allowed to *PREVENT* serious bodily injury.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Lets not rush into anything.
Wait until Nevada gets here to make an intelligent decision for us get the OK to look at the pic. He will be able to tell us how it actually happened and if it is a fake or not.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Without all the evidence and hearing all the testimony I won't and can't make a decision as to his guilty on innocence. But from what I've seen and read it supports his story more and more.. Remember he is innocent till proven guilty by a court of law, not by thugs and race baiters and vigilantes, not by the liberal scum media.. As to the media it shows their true colors and their hatred of truth! I am beginning to believe that they should be charged for fostering the protests and such..They knowingly provided false information and should be held accountable for their actions.. But it will never happen, I know that also...


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## BobDFL (Jul 7, 2006)

It doesn't help the State Attorney, that they never asked for or received GZ's medical records from that night (per the Lead Investigator while on the stand at the bond hearing this morning). The Defense Attorney promptly handed the SA a copy for their records.

So much for a thorough investigation before charging GZ by the Special Prosecutor.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

> Paramedics at the scene declined to transport Zimmerman to the hospital.
> 
> Read more: New photo shows George Zimmerman


Didn't change anything for me because I already considered his version fairly credible, but this line from the article does not sound accurate to me, having been a paramedic myself. I do not think they declined to transport him. More likely, he refused transport.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

BobDFL said:


> It doesn't help the State Attorney, that they never asked for or received GZ's medical records from that night (per the Lead Investigator while on the stand at the bond hearing this morning). The Defense Attorney promptly handed the SA a copy for their records.
> 
> So much for a thorough investigation before charging GZ by the Special Prosecutor.


Hmmmm, so all the political pandering by Corey with her "justice for Trayvon *and* Zimmerman" speach was bull. I never would have guessed.

The gunpowder burns are the most significant piece of info in this article.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

ryanthomas said:


> Didn't change anything for me because I already considered his version fairly credible, but this line from the article does not sound accurate to me, having been a paramedic myself. I do not think they declined to transport him. *More likely, he refused transport*.


My experience in auto crashes and other accidents leads me to agree. Paramedics are persistant about transporting. No matter if you have obvious injuries or not.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I do not think *they* declined to transport him. More likely, he refused transport.


I agree.
I think the reporter got it wrong, because it's always been my experience EMT's want EVERYONE to be transported, and will ask more than once if you're SURE you don't want to go "just to be checked out"

It cover *THEIR *butts if an injury turns up later


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

His refusal to go to the horsepital is completely in line with his desire to go to the police station immediately to give his statement. We (all of us who ride or have ridden the gut bucket) have seen the victim who refuses to go to the hospital after an accident or incident because they are more worried about everything else...the car being towed, family members, being cooperative to the police.

His refusal (as I take it as well) speaks volumes for his desire to tell his story. Had he gone to the hospital, I might have actually taken a step back to evaluate the situation. His injuries, while very apparent and probably very painful, did not fall under a life threatening status and he overlooked them in order to get to the station and give his statement. The medics cleaned him up first as most police officers won't take an actively bleeding person into custody. I would give an eye tooth to see that medic report, and I will bet it comes out as the case progresses and the medics will be interviewed extensively.

Conversely, we ambo personnel have seen the person with the small cut to the finger that insisted on a ride to the hospital because they were more worried about evading arrest or documenting the injuries for litigious reasons or to back their stories.

Do you guys follow my line of logic here?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

um for me, changes nothing. I've had my head smacked open on the back,and ya, I went to the police before I went to the hosptial. Being upset and having adrenelin going, I didn't even want them to freeze it before stiching, the Dr.insisted.I'm not sure If I'd of shot the jerk that hurt me, but I wasen't packing.All that happened to him was anger classes,and I found out that I was Woman # 5,he had abused. Burning Bed would be too kind.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

The fact that the Judge in the bail hearing said..the prosecution's case is "thin" tells me that it won't be long for the defense moves for dismissal.. and the lead investigator had nothing to help the presecutions case..what a sham this all is.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

time said:


> My experience in auto crashes and other accidents leads me to agree. Paramedics are persistant about transporting. No matter if you have obvious injuries or not.


Yup, CYA is equal with ABC (airway, breathing, circulation).


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

Nope don't bother me in the least. Seen much much worse, smelled enough that would make a maggot gag. Worse for me is burned charred flesh.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

pancho said:


> Lets not rush into anything.
> Wait until Nevada gets here to make an intelligent decision for us get the OK to look at the pic.
> He will be able to tell us how it actually happened and if it is a fake or not.


**************************************
Oh......I get it......you were making a 'funny'......right??? 



:hysterical:ound:Gee, I surely hope so...ound::hysterical:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Hear what happens to Zimmerman when he tries to express sympathy to Martin's parents: 

Trayvon Martin Case: New Photograph Shows George Zimmerman's Bloodied Head


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

I thought it was pretty well established that they were in some sort of a scuffle before the shooting so I don't think it changes the facts of the case really.

What I think it will come down to is who started the scuffle number one, and then also if Zimmerman is covered by the stand your ground law if he pursued the victim against police advice and he then shot him during the struggle.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

time said:


> My experience in auto crashes and other accidents leads me to agree. Paramedics are persistant about transporting. No matter if you have obvious injuries or not.


My experience has been that if I say no, they say ok! I sign a form that say's I refused to be transported, and that's that.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Doesn't matter what we think, we aren't on the jury. All this carp coming out in the media only makes it that much harder to put on a fair trial.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

beccachow said:


> His refusal to go to the horsepital is completely in line with his desire to go to the police station immediately to give his statement. We (all of us who ride or have ridden the gut bucket) have seen the victim who refuses to go to the hospital after an accident or incident because they are more worried about everything else...the car being towed, family members, being cooperative to the police.
> 
> His refusal (as I take it as well) speaks volumes for his desire to tell his story. Had he gone to the hospital, I might have actually taken a step back to evaluate the situation. His injuries, while very apparent and probably very painful, did not fall under a life threatening status and he overlooked them in order to get to the station and give his statement. The medics cleaned him up first as most police officers won't take an actively bleeding person into custody. I would give an eye tooth to see that medic report, and I will bet it comes out as the case progresses and the medics will be interviewed extensively.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your input, Becc, would give it a POTDA but ya know, its JUST you as Cap't Becca talkin'. 
I saw this earlier in an email & being a med person too, couldn't wait to take a look. 
I didn't think it looked too bad...I mean the scalp bleeds like crazy w/any cut...I think he knew he'd better shoot b/4 more happened.


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## BobDFL (Jul 7, 2006)

Hollowdweller said:


> What I think it will come down to is who started the scuffle number one, and then also if Zimmerman is covered by the stand your ground law if he pursued the victim against police advice and he then shot him during the struggle.


Well that has been satisfied this morning when the Lead Investigator stated under oath and while on the stand during the bond hearing, that the state has no evidence that disputes GZ's account of who and how the fight started.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hollowdweller said:


> I thought it was pretty well established that they were in some sort of a scuffle before the shooting so I don't think it changes the facts of the case really.
> 
> What I think it will come down to is *who started the scuffle *number one, and then also if Zimmerman is covered by the stand your ground law *if he pursued the victim against police advice* and he then shot him during the struggle.


 
If Zimmerman had attacked Martin, there would have been injuries ON Martin
And yet there were NONE

He DIDN'T "pursue him against police advice".
He was ALREADY (legally) *following* him when he was told "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman replied, "OK".

"Stand your Ground" has absolutely NOTHING to do with the incident.
Martin was in the act of committing a "forcible felony" and that justifies the use of deadly force


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

I think that the prosecutors have been "TOLD" to indict Zimmerman. It's either that or the Prosecutor wants to have the trial judge throw out her indictment and send it to the Grand Jury. That way she doesn't have cross hairs on her chest.

If the indictment is thrown out or Zimmerman is found not guilty there will be blood in the streets. HMMMM - blood in the streets just before the election - what a perfect time to declare martial law and not have the elections. Where is my tinfoil hat, I left it around here somewhere.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Doesn't anyone think it's odd there doesn't seem to be any blood splattering? I just thought that was odd because with his head being banged on the sidewalk I would have expected it to be splattered instead of just dripping down like it is in the picture.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Doesn't anyone think it's odd there doesn't seem to be any blood splattering?
> 
> I just thought that was odd because with his head being banged on the sidewalk* I would have expected it to be splattered* instead of just dripping down like it is in the picture.


It was raining that night.
Tiny drops could have washed away.

There may BE spatter that's just not visible in the photos and he IS wearing a RED jacket.

The forensics will be able to detect it if it's there

There was only about a *one minute* lapse from the time Zimmerman hung up with the Dispatcher, and the first 911 call saying shots were fired.

From the two cuts, I'd say his head was "banged" a *minimum* of two times, but there wouldn't be splatter until blood had started to flow fairly well.

Also, they ended up on grass, so some splatter could have been wiped away. If he was flat on his back it would have just dripped off the back of his head.

The flow pattern in the pictures is from blood that came out AFTER he got up, since it's running down towards his neck

I don't think the fight lasted all that long


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Sonshine said:


> Doesn't anyone think it's odd there doesn't seem to be any blood splattering? I just thought that was odd because with his head being banged on the sidewalk I would have expected it to be splattered instead of just dripping down like it is in the picture.


So how did he get cut?


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

bookmarking this to read later.


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## kimmom2five (Apr 19, 2009)

Ok why doesn't Trayvon Martin have the same right to the castle defense? A threatening looking guy(with a gun) was following him. He had more need to defend himself than George Zimmerman did.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Charges of 2nd degree were politically brought to pacify the race pimps-the media knowingly and willingly hyped this case for their master in DC....There will be no trial until after the election and he will be found "not guilty" of 2nd degree....BTW...He still does'nt look like a "White Guy", and 5 Trayvons were killed in-why does'nt anyone care???Go to utube-ZO nation vids-the brother is cool.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

kimmom2five said:


> Ok why doesn't Trayvon Martin have the same right to the castle defense? A threatening looking guy(with a gun) was following him. He had more need to defend himself than George Zimmerman did.


B/c you can't just punch a guy in the mouth & nose & bang his head on the sidewalk for following you. AND then not expect retaliation.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

beccachow said:


> Don't open this if the sight of blood makes you wonky; being a paramedic I lose sight of what bothers some folks, so while these don't look overly icky and vomit inspiring to me, they might bother some.
> 
> If you choose not to open the link, I will describe it: a photo of Zimmerman showing some head trauma. If you DO open it, I would point your attention to the upper right side of his head, where, on closer inspection, you will see about a 1-1 1/2 inch laceration, deep enough to be gaping a bit. I am unclear as to where the second source of blood flow, that in the left half of his head, is coming from, but I would wager a bet he has another nice laceration there as well, just out of reach of the viewer's eyes in this picture. It lends credence in my mind to the story he tells of having his head bashed into the pavement.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen such a small amount of blood from a lacerated scalp?The blood looks thin.It has not clotted at all.You don't need Neveda to tell you this looks like a fake.I can tell you that.I would not be surprised if the kid did fight with him though.I think the kid was defending himself against this guy.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Some people will never be satisfied with the evidence.
Notice they said there wasn't any cuts on Zimmerman's head?
Then when they were shown pictures of the cuts and read the police reports they say the cuts are fake.

Nothing will satisfy some people. Many people are so prejudice they think a colored person can do no wrong. It doesn't matter what evidence or how many eye witnesses there are. It doesn't matter what the police report says. And it will not matter what the court decides. In their eyes Zimmerman is automatically guilty just because he is a "white" person.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The look on the faces of all those black folks bothered me badly.
As if they were ready to start a race war right then and there.......

So the manipulating of this issue into a race war is working......

Never mind if GZ is guilty or not . . .race war time...........

Heaven help us.............


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> B/c you can't just punch a guy in the mouth & nose & bang his head on the sidewalk for following you. AND then not expect retaliation.


Yea anyone lays a Hand on me I'm pulling my Piece and they continue their Dead Period,I don't care if their Green with Pick Hair.



Jim-mi said:


> The look on the faces of all those black folks bothered me badly.
> As if they were ready to start a race war right then and there.......
> 
> So the manipulating of this issue into a race war is working......
> ...


Wish Whites and Hispanics would get a Set and March for Justice for Zimmerman.

big rockpile


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

race war time? 

check out Fred's take of the situation. Fred has a way with words.

Fred On Everything


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

kimmom2five said:


> Ok why doesn't Trayvon Martin have the same right to the castle defense?


Because it's a legal defense and he's not being charged with a crime.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

wwubben said:


> Have you ever seen such a small amount of blood from a lacerated scalp?The blood looks thin.It has not clotted at all.You don't need Neveda to tell you this looks like a fake.I can tell you that.I would not be surprised if the kid did fight with him though.I think the kid was defending himself against this guy.


I was thinking this was taken after the medics cleaned him up. I agreee scalp wounds bleed like the dickens, but the wound itself has been exposed indicating it was cleaned up for the medics to eyeball. Again, just opinion based on what *I* have done and seen in similar situations and not worth a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Still, you cannot take away from the open lac to the head at the top/middle right of his head, and the blood flow indicating another lac just out of the camera lens' scope. Small or not, it is there. 

So the only way he would have been justified (not at wwubben, just generally) would be if he continued to let Martin bash his head until brain matter or skull was showing? Maybe Zimmerman laid down and bashed his own head on the concrete after he shot Martin :shrug:?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wwubben said:


> Have you ever seen such a small amount of blood from a lacerated scalp?*The blood looks thin*.It has not clotted at all.You don't need Neveda to tell you *this looks like a fake*.I can tell you that.I would not be surprised if the kid did fight with him though.I think the kid was defending himself against this guy.


It was *RAINING *that night
If Martin was "defending himself" where are *HIS *injuries?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

> Maybe Zimmerman laid down and bashed his own head on the concrete after he shot Martin


I'm actually surprised nobody has put that theory forth seriously. It's crazy, but so are some of the other theories out there.

As for the amount of blood, I've seen hundreds or even thousands of head wounds (probably not as many as Becca) and no two of them were the same. It doesn't indicate anything to me that there wasn't more blood.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

A couple of days ago, the local ABC station did a story on this. The anchorwoman, who is black, made a comment afterwards: "come on, do those even look real?"

Made me so angry that I wrote the station manager, (with no response of course). This station is usually unbiased, but this woman should be reprimanded or removed from the air if she doesn't publicly apologize for her remarks.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Before this incident ever happened I was not a prejudice person. I looked at every person for what they were not their color. I would defend any person if I thought they were right no matter the color of their skin.
This incident has changed my way of thinking. I find myself becoming more prejudice every day. No longer will I be around a colored person. No longer will a colored person be allowed on my property. No longer will I buy anything where I have to go through a checkout with a colored person working it.
If a group of people a certain color are able, willing, and allowed to decide the guilt or innocent of a person strictly by their skin color I can do the same thing.
In my area blacks commit the majority of crimes. I will treat every person with black skin the same way I would a crook.
If the colored people want to make this a race war it is their choice.
If the colored people think the life of some wanna be gangsta is worth that much to them I think the life of a "white" person should be worth the same.


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

The pics don't change anything for me. All along I've said they should investigate what happened prior to the altercation. There were plenty of witnesses to the fight. No question how that went down. I think the lawyer on ABC hit the nail on the head, it depends on who the jury finds was the aggressor. You can't start a fight, then claim self defense because you are losing.

I'd love to hear Martin's testimony of what was said prior to the fight. Oh, that's right, he's dead. I guess Zimmerman will get away with it then.

Sorry, but I still think Zimmerman likely said something that started the fight. Without Martin around to testify, I think Zimmerman walks.


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

pancho said:


> Before this incident ever happened I was not a prejudice person. I looked at every person for what they were not their color. I would defend any person if I thought they were right no matter the color of their skin.
> This incident has changed my way of thinking. I find myself becoming more prejudice every day. No longer will I be around a colored person. No longer will a colored person be allowed on my property. No longer will I buy anything where I have to go through a checkout with a colored person working it.
> If a group of people a certain color are able, willing, and allowed to decide the guilt or innocent of a person strictly by their skin color I can do the same thing.
> In my area blacks commit the majority of crimes. I will treat every person with black skin the same way I would a crook.
> ...


Sorry to hear about your change of heart.

I think it's just age and environment. We live out in the country. My kid's school is 95+% white (I can name the black families). Yet at every school function I see kids trying to be gangsta. Pant's down around their butt crack (I don't need to know the color of your boxers, really.) Ball cap with a dead straight brim, worn crooked. Sports jersey that's 3 sizes too big. The majority are good kids. Interesting that the black kids don't tend to dress as bad as the white kids. My son calls them wiggas (I'm guessing you can figure that one out.)

Most of the crime you speak of is gang related, and it's black on black. Again, I think it's environment. When you don't have a mother AND a father to guide you, you look outside the house. What do these kids find, yup the gangs are willing to take them in and give them a "family". I blame the welfare system.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> Before this incident ever happened I was not a prejudice person. I looked at every person for what they were not their color. I would defend any person if I thought they were right no matter the color of their skin.
> This incident has changed my way of thinking. I find myself becoming more prejudice every day. No longer will I be around a colored person. No longer will a colored person be allowed on my property. No longer will I buy anything where I have to go through a checkout with a colored person working it.
> If a group of people a certain color are able, willing, and allowed to decide the guilt or innocent of a person strictly by their skin color I can do the same thing.
> In my area blacks commit the majority of crimes. I will treat every person with black skin the same way I would a crook.
> ...


You're angry right now, Pancho. I was too when I felt we were duped.

1st I heard about this tragedy, the way it was reported made me think of the out of control HOA w/small-minded creep who stalks everyone & couldn't wait to shoot a kid-especially if he's black.
Then I heard some facts. THEN I heard the way NBC reported it and is still reporting it & the way ABC reported!

Something should be done about false reporting!!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Home Harvest said:


> Sorry to hear about your change of heart.
> 
> I think it's just age and environment. We live out in the country. My kid's school is 95+% white (I can name the black families). Yet at every school function I see kids trying to be gangsta. Pant's down around their butt crack (I don't need to know the color of your boxers, really.) Ball cap with a dead straight brim, worn crooked. Sports jersey that's 3 sizes too big. The majority are good kids. Interesting that the black kids don't tend to dress as bad as the white kids. My son calls them wiggas (I'm guessing you can figure that one out.)
> 
> Most of the crime you speak of is gang related, and it's black on black. Again, I think it's environment. When you don't have a mother AND a father to guide you, you look outside the house. What do these kids find, yup the gangs are willing to take them in and give them a "family". I blame the welfare system.


I thought about it for quite a while. Talked to some friends about it.
One friend asked me a question that I had to give quite a bit of thought to before I could answer. When I told her about the way I was beginning to change she asked if there had ever been a colored person do something for me. It took me quite a while before I could answer her. I was as honest as I could be and I couldn't think of a single thing a colored person had ever tried to do a good thing for me. I could remember a lot of bad things, including 3 attempted robberies.
Thinking about that, reading what some people posted on this forum, and reading about how most colored people felt about white people made up my mind. I am not saying it is right. It is something that was forced on me and I don't like it a bit. I wish it was different and I could return to treating all people the same but it don't look like there is a chance of that happening.

Sometimes a person will take all they can take then it is time to stand up and be a man. My time is now.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

This is a good point to distance myself 100% from pancho's comments. I won't argue with him because I think it's pointless to try to reason with an unreasonable person, but I think it's important for me to stand up and say I for one do NOT agree with that garbage.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'd love to hear Martin's testimony of *what was said prior to the fight*. Oh, that's right, he's dead. I guess Zimmerman will get away with it then.


 
Martin's girlfriend claims to have heard it.



> Zimmerman likely said something that started the fight.


Nothing he could have SAID justifies Martin's *ACTIONS* in attacking


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Read an article this morning, on Drudge, about Alan Dershowitz (sp?) (big shot lawyer) saying the case is weak, in that the prosecution didn't mention the photos of Zimmermans head. 2nd degree murder... no way, with this evidence in hand now. Might be disciplinary charges against the prosecution for failure to disclose...


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Pancho, there is good and bad in every race. I could be totally racist if I let that jerk who robbed us and left us destitute be the only role model I could use.

However, I work in a job where white works with black, hispanics next to all of us, even a polish fireman with a hysterical accent, a french guy and one from Britain. We don't dislike someone because of race, we dislike someone who doesn't pull his weight, black or white.

And we laugh about our differences, tease and joke, and get along great. In our case, it's because that guy I am sharing a table with at dinner might, within 10 minutes of our meal, be dragged out of a building and have to rely on me to save him after he tried to save a civilian. Or a black firefighter brings me a kitten to resucitate. Or I might need to rely on that white guy to stand by me and help save a life. Or I could rack up the medic and rely on them to cut me out of the wreckage and save ME. There is no color in my world. Our lives change in the blink of an eye...one minute we are joking about how one medic used a fake jamaican accent all night long for fun, or how I don't really know what the heck a collard green is or how I will not be bringing one of my pet goats anywhere near them as they spill out recipes for barbecued goat. The next, I am standing beside a burning building and praying they all make it out to joke again the next night. These same guys, black white hispanic whatever, all banded together a few years back to hand make a sling for me to try to save a downed goat because they knew it was tearing me up.

I am not Becky, the white girl, and they are not Larry the black guy or Jose the hispanic. They are my friends, my coworkers; we rely on each other daily and accept the differences that make us unique. We can describe each other as "You know, Larry on Truck 73, the light skinned guy?" or "Becky, that tall white girl with the long pony tail?" and it is acceptable, no dramatized outrage. When I am cuddling your seizing one year old, or when someone pulls a civilian out of a burning building, no one sees color of the skin. they see a human. I so wish everyone could be this way, it makes the world such a great place.

I will not hold an entire race responsible for the outlandish stupidity of a few militant members who cannot let go of the past or who feel they need to prove a point or fight for more entitlements because of race. 

I hate to think of a stupid pre-arranged race war dividing our peaceful existence.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Becky, I hope this is a temporary thing. I would hate to spend the rest of my life feeling like this. Maybe when all of this is over I can get back to my old self.
Hope so.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Good post Becky,
Those that want a race war could care less that you have real feelings..........
Those yaahoos want a race war just for a major distraction from the real problems this country has . . . and if it got bad enough it would be the ammo for whats-his-face to declare his self a dictator or if not that extreme "See how I put down the race war" "I am so good . .reelect me"

Some body way up above said something like "A guy following me with a gun" . . . .

Just where has anyone said that GZ was brandishing his weapon. . ...????

Everything I heard from the beginning made a point of saying GZ has a concealed carry permit.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I agree the evidence against him is weaker than the evidence supporting him at this point. But now that this storm has started, will anything less than his conviction calm the seas? People are not listening to facts any longer, they are listening to emotion.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

beccachow said:


> Pancho, there is good and bad in every race. I could be totally racist if I let that jerk who robbed us and left us destitute be the only role model I could use.
> 
> However, I work in a job where white works with black, hispanics next to all of us, even a polish fireman with a hysterical accent, a french guy and one from Britain. We don't dislike someone because of race, we dislike someone who doesn't pull his weight, black or white.
> 
> ...


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

((((((((((aww, shucks)))))))))))

Seriously. The polish guy has the funniest accent!!! I love to hear him on the radio.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It was *RAINING *that night
> If Martin was "defending himself" where are *HIS *injuries?


Zimmerman was wrong in being near the kid.Zimmerman went after the kid,not the other way around.I think Zimmerman approached the kid and made threats.The kid got scared and thought he only had one choice.I think Zimmerman will not be found guilty because he will have a biased jury like OJ did.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

beccachow said:


> I will not hold an entire race responsible for the outlandish stupidity of a few militant members who cannot let go of the past or who feel they need to prove a point or fight for more entitlements because of race.


Everyone has a choice how they react to the actions of others. I agree with your choice.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

wwubben said:


> Zimmerman was wrong in being near the kid.Zimmerman went after the kid,not the other way around.I think Zimmerman approached the kid and made threats.The kid got scared and thought he only had one choice.I think Zimmerman will not be found guilty because he will have a biased jury like OJ did.


I think the exact opposite. He will never get a fair shot because the public has been brainwashed with pics of a cute, clean cut black kid and the notion that he was walking down the street holding skittles and was gunned down feeding an orphaned kitten while on his way to church. His updated thug pics are not circulated, and the doctored 911 tape is still held as Truth.

I believe Zimmerman was out of his car following Martin to confront him, was advised to stay in the car, turned to do just that and was set upon by Martin asking the now famous (or not) question, "Do you have a problem? You do now." The fight ensued and had its very unfortunate outcome.

Not saying Zimmerman was right or wrong, or that Martin was right or wrong; it was a tragedy.

The tragedy now is that the media has pumped the entire population full of half truths and downright NON-truths, fed by the NBP, the president, and the black extremists such as Al Sharpton and company.

The odds of Zimemrman getting a fair shake are as good as my getting the winning jackpot in tonight's lottery.

If he is guilty, ok. But let's let the evidence speak for itself either way. And no way can you fnd a jury that isn't already biased.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Don't head wounds (even minor ones) usually bleed profusely?

When I was about 5 years old, I was playing in a wading pool with a couple of neighbor kids. A little boy got mad at another girl and threw a plastic cup, which hit her in the head. Somehow it managed to cut her scalp, and she had to be taken to the hospital for stitches. 

I still remember the incident fairly well -- it was the first time I'd ever seen someone gushing blood! 

Her wound (IIRC) seemed a lot more serious than Zimmerman's. :shrug:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> I will not hold an entire race responsible for the outlandish stupidity of a few militant members who cannot let go of the past or who feel they need to prove a point or fight for more entitlements because of race.


How many are we calling a few?
Who chooses these militant members and who follow these militant members?
People are trying to forget about all of the marches all across the U.S.
We are not talking of a few.

Entitlements because of race is a very common thing. They expect it and demand it. Look at the jobs where colored people have to be hired because of their color and not for any other reason. Look at the colleges where those people of color are accepted even though they can not pass a test.

Look at what happened to Ted N. Compare what he did to the reward poster put out on Zimmerman, alive or dead.

How many of the firemen where you work got their job because of their color?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> Before this incident ever happened I was not a prejudice person. I looked at every person for what they were not their color. *I would defend any person if I thought they were right no matter the color of their skin.*
> This incident has changed my way of thinking.


I do hope you get back to this way of thinking. I can understand your disappointment with how some of the folks are handling this.... but you need to remember that it is only a few... who are wrong. Lets not turn our backs on defending what we believe is right.... regardless of skin color. Are you also going to alienate all white folks or Asians, or Hispanics or any other "group" because there are some in the group who will use a bad situation to their advantage?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I do hope you get back to this way of thinking. I can understand your disappointment with how some of the folks are handling this.... but you need to remember that it is only a few... who are wrong. Lets not turn our backs on defending what we believe is right.... regardless of skin color. Are you also going to alienate all white folks or Asians, or Hispanics or any other "group" because there are some in the group who will use a bad situation to their advantage?


If it was only a few I could understand. The trouble is, it isn't just a few. From the president of the U.S. down to the homeless on the streets. There have been marches in many cities across the U.S. Listen to any colored radio station or to the majority of colored on TV.

I have been a very strong believer in equality. This has shown me there hasn't ever been equality during my life. People are given preference in jobs because they are the right color and refused employment because they are not the right color. Colleges can refuse a student because they are the wrong color and accept one with much lower grades because they are the right color. We see groups having functions where certain colors are allowed and others are banned. We see organizations that only a certain color can benefit from. Even businesses are given preference if the owners are a certain color.

There has never been true equality during my lifetime.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Pancho, I fully understand your views and nothing I say will change them, only time will renew your belief in people. Al Sharpton has achieved exactly what he wanted, a full out racial divide that very well might end in a race war.

I still HAVE to believe that there is good in everyone. Trust me, I see blacks killing blacks daily because of where I work. Gangs, drugs, thugs...it never gets easier to try to plug up bullet holes in teens as young as Trayvon.

But if I give in and generalize, I am doomed. I am doomed at work where I have almost a 95% black population that I work with, patient wise. I am doomed at work where I have to rely on persons of color to back me up. I am doomed at my local gas station here in God's country where my favorite worker is a black guy who I joke with, who knows my truck when he see it, knows my DH, tells me DH already bought such and such earlier that day so I don't buy it again. I am doomed in my heart, which beats for Christ and His refusal to see balck and white skin, only the soul and heart that exists beneath it. I am doomed in my soul, which yearns to believe that everyone is equal. I am even doomed here at HT where some of our posters are black and offer great advice and insight.

If there is a race war, working where I work, I have no doubt that a black person could assault me or worse. The saddest part is I would never be able to tell them I am not part of the stupid war at all. Blacks are being conditioned to hate us and thanks to this case, believe the same about YOU as you now do about them.

There is a special place for people like Al Sharpton who stir the pot of racial divide and keep it boiling. The black population listen to people like him and believe that it is the fault of whites that they cannot get ahead, that they HAVE to live on welfare, that they are owed something because of the past, that every white vs black assualt is because of race. I hate that people are given preference due to some truly ancient history, and yes, it is rampant in my department where whites are passed over for promotions and opportunities. Our very own Chief Of Recruitment went on a rampage on public TV that was filled with lies and hatred. And nothing was done to him for it. 

Pancho, don't let them win. You KNOW you have a gas station guy, a coworker, a family down the street that is good hearted and hard working. Chances are, these people don't give a rat's ear about Sharpton and the NBP and the ravings of lunatics. They are just trying to make it in the world, same as you. Use them for your role model.

I hate to think of a racial war where my friends might turn against me, but if this continues, it is a good possibility. SO many wonderful black folks I deal with daily that could cross the line and hate me if this agenda progresses any longer. It breaks my heart. :stars:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> Pancho, don't let them win. You KNOW you have a gas station guy, a coworker, a family down the street that is good hearted and hard working. Chances are, these people don't give a rat's ear about Sharpton and the NBP and the ravings of lunatics. They are just trying to make it in the world, same as you. Use them for your role model.
> 
> I hate to think of a racial war where my friends might turn against me, but if this continues, it is a good possibility. SO many wonderful black folks I deal with daily that could cross the line and hate me if this agenda progresses any longer. It breaks my heart. :stars:


I did have a co-worker I thought was a very good friend. For over 10 years I worked with him. I taught him his job. Helped him in any way I could.
He was hired because of his color but I didn't let that get in the way of our friendship.
My good friend was working behind my back trying to get me transfered or fired.

In the area where I live if you drive into a gas station and get gas, if the person working there is colored you will have to wait until any colored people have gotten their gas before you can. I have even had the law called on me and I had to move my car from in front of the pumps so a colored person could get gas before me.

I live just south of Jackson, Ms. The city is over 90% colored. If a white person goes into Jackson they are subject to being stopped just because they are white. There have been 3 attempts to rob me in the last 5 years. All by colored men. None were successful but I didn't even call the police because I would have been the one going to jail.

When I first moved here I lived in Jackson. A man living one block from me built an 8ft chain link fence around his house. Complete with concertina wire and barbwire on top. He is now the only white person who lives in the area and he gets weekly visits from the police.

For any business to get the required permits to open in Jackson they cannot be white owned. When a business opens by a colored person and fails they sue the city. One business man had a Nissan dealership. He went bankrupt then sued Nissan because they should have known he didn't have the knowledge to run a dealership. He was a Saints football player.

Contract for the city are given to minority owners only. The state also. They do not have to be the lowest bidder either.

What is happening now is just the straw that broke the camel's back.
If people want equality it is time to stop the favoritism.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> If it was only a few I could understand. The trouble is, it isn't just a few. From the president of the U.S. down to the homeless on the streets. There have been marches in many cities across the U.S. Listen to any colored radio station or to the majority of colored on TV.
> 
> I have been a very strong believer in equality. This has shown me there hasn't ever been equality during my life. People are given preference in jobs because they are the right color and refused employment because they are not the right color. Colleges can refuse a student because they are the wrong color and accept one with much lower grades because they are the right color. We see groups having functions where certain colors are allowed and others are banned. We see organizations that only a certain color can benefit from. Even businesses are given preference if the owners are a certain color.
> 
> There has never been true equality during my lifetime.


Knowing that we do not have, nor have we had equality is no reason to give up what we know to be right. Most of what you are describing is what used to be called reverse discrimination.... which is also wrong but was a tool originally designed to compensate and help equalize specific problem areas in our society. I agree with you that it was ill conceived, and the results were not all that great. The politicos are forever going to play the game to serve their own needs... which has nothing to do with solving our problems. However... we the people... need to rise above that level of thinking. If we can bring ourselves to realizing that folks of a different race or ethnic background are just folks... just like ourselves... with families they love, and that we are all really the same... then maybe... just maybe we can get back to work solving the real problems. We all choose our own paths... but we need to be careful not to be sucked into the politicos game and give them the very thing they want. In short I guess I am just trying to say... stick to what you know is right.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

willow_girl said:


> Don't head wounds (even minor ones) usually bleed profusely?


Usually, yes. But I've seen enough exceptions to know that you can't draw any conclusions from a lack of profuse bleeding in the picture.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wwubben said:


> *Zimmerman was wrong* in being near the kid.Zimmerman went after the kid,not the other way around.
> *I think Zimmerman approached the kid and made threats.*
> The kid got scared and thought he only had one choice.I think Zimmerman will not be found guilty because he will have a biased jury like OJ did.


There's no *evidence* he was "near the kid" when he was talking to the dispatcher. He said he was returning to the *front* of the building so he coulkd give them the address

One of the last things he said was he had "lost him" and didn't know where he was.

NOTHING Zimmerman did was illegal and NOTHING he did, according to EVIDENCE presented so far, justified Martin's attack on him

There is *no evidence* Zimmerman made any "threats"
The "lead investigator" *testified under oath* at the bond hearing that there is NO EVIDENCE to show Zimmerman started it


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Don't head wounds (even minor ones) usually bleed profusely?
> 
> When I was about 5 years old, I was playing in a wading pool with a couple of neighbor kids. A little boy got mad at another girl and threw a plastic cup, which hit her in the head. Somehow it managed to cut her scalp, and she had to be taken to the hospital for stitches.
> 
> ...


What does ANY of that have to do with this?
(other than to suggest Zimmerman wasn't injured)

Why try to deny reality?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

pancho said:


> I did have a co-worker I thought was a very good friend. For over 10 years I worked with him. I taught him his job. Helped him in any way I could.
> He was hired because of his color but I didn't let that get in the way of our friendship.
> My good friend was working behind my back trying to get me transfered or fired.
> 
> ...


Going into Jackson is about like the city where I live with the black/white ratio. I do not want racial riots or any kind of racial problems. On the front page of the paper this morning there was an article saying 3 young black men were murdered within 24 hours on Friday. One was an 18 year old boy walking home from a small christian based school. 2 cars raced by and one sprayed bullets on him. The other started with a fight in a neighborhood. 
I am very frightened of drive by shootings and shots at people out of a car widow. Those things happen frequently and are mostly drug related but I can see just how crazy things could get if there is a race war. Gangs are really bad here.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

The head injury that disabled me, blunt force trauma, bled very little and only took four stitches, sewed by a medic that had never done stitches before.

I thought it was no big deal at the time. I've had a few cuts on my head, some bled a bunch.

It turned out to be a very big deal.

Knowing what I know now, little cut, big cut, little blood or gusher, I'll kill anyone that that tries to bonk my head off of concrete. 

There are some things worse than death.

All of you folks that want to judge the seriousness of a head wound based how much blood is in a picture, I'll do a "freaky friday" switch with you for a day of my choosing. If you live through it, I bet you have a different perspective.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I believe that Zimmerman said or did something that caused Martin to react, then Zimmerman shot him. I have no doubt that there was a fight, I don't doubt that Zimmerman got his head knocked on the pavement. I think that Martin was provoked by Zimmerman.

Also Zimmerman is not white. He is Hispanic, I don't care which way you look at it, the man isn't a white anglo saxon male. Perhaps there is a problem in that area with Hispanics and Blacks. Seems to be in other areas of the country. Can't understand why blacks keep saying Zimmerman is white except to project that it is all the "whites" fault.

Race war, mm. Won't be a race war because white people will roll over and do whatever they can to keep the peace, just like always. White people have become so politically correct, ashamed to express any opinion except on anonymous BB, that Zimmerman will likely be hung out to dry..just to keep the peace and appease black folks.

And that is no better than what the black folks are doing. Either way Zimmerman will never have any sort of "life" after this, even if the man goes free. Someone will be "gunning" for him - after all, there is a bounty on his head put there by blacks. And white folks do nothing. And black folks know that we will do nothing.

We whites have had 70 years now of guilt over slavery pushed down our throats at every opportunity, until everything looks like slavery to us. speak our minds? Not hardly, it wouldn't be politically correct to say what we really think. March or riot? We are too white for that..that is what black folks do. I think that is what this comes down to..black folk know that white folk ain't gone do nuthin..and they can riot, burn down the whole town, and all white folks will do is offer free aid to rebuild their neighborhoods and some restitution monies while we move further out in the suburbs. 

It is what we always do, what we have a history of doing, ever since the Watts riots in LA and black folks know it. That is why Sharpton and Jackson continue to provoke black people and get away with it. That is why no arrests were made for putting a BOUNTY on Zimmerman. Why aren't whites up in arms about that? Oh I know, Zimmerman is Hispanic..not really "white" so maybe this whole incident will pass and we whites won't have to deal with it, cause it isn't really about a white man, now is it?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

It does not help to have a racist Attorney General like Eric Holder either. His department is now referring any questions about Fast and Furious to George Soros funded Media Matters. 

He also ignores anything that the Black Panthers do. Boys will be boyz.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Going into Jackson is about like the city where I live with the black/white ratio. I do not want racial riots or any kind of racial problems. On the front page of the paper this morning there was an article saying 3 young black men were murdered within 24 hours on Friday. One was an 18 year old boy walking home from a small christian based school. 2 cars raced by and one sprayed bullets on him. The other started with a fight in a neighborhood.
> I am very frightened of drive by shootings and shots at people out of a car widow. Those things happen frequently and are mostly drug related but I can see just how crazy things could get if there is a race war. Gangs are really bad here.


Gangs are not just a black or Hispanic problem. My parents live in Des Moines, which has a large Bosnian refugee population and has since the mid 1990s, and some parts of that city have been taken over by Bosnian gangs. The media doesn't report on this, but the police blotter, which is online, backs this up.

If you don't know, these people are white, usually blond and blue-eyed.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

sidepasser said:


> I believe that Zimmerman said or did something that caused Martin to react, then Zimmerman shot him. I have no doubt that there was a fight, I don't doubt that Zimmerman got his head knocked on the pavement. I think that Martin was provoked by Zimmerman.
> 
> Also Zimmerman is not white. He is Hispanic, I don't care which way you look at it, the man isn't a white anglo saxon male. Perhaps there is a problem in that area with Hispanics and Blacks. Seems to be in other areas of the country. Can't understand why blacks keep saying Zimmerman is white except to project that it is all the "whites" fault.
> 
> ...


I agree with much o wha you wrote. However, to be more clear, I'd change the first paragraph "react" to "punch". React implys there was no choice, likehow a 88 pound person "reacts" on a teeter-totter when a 300 pound person jumps on the other end. 

I think we are distracting ourselves when we go after all the superficial details. It is really quite simple. Zimmerman and Martin are legally allowed to walk around, day or night. Zimmerman and Martin are legally allowed to speak harshly to anyone they care to. Zimmerman is legally allowed to carry a pistol. For whatever reason, (and I really don't care why) Marting struck Zimmerman and continured to beat him. This is supported by the lone survivor of the altercation and an eye whitness. Zimmerman, while in Florida, has the legal right to shoot anyone that is a threat to his life.

That Martin had a "No limit N**er" as a username on Twitter or Facebook, was suspended from school for stolen gold and burglery tool in his backpack, was wearing a hoodie, was off the sidewalk and up behind the homes of others, is 6'4" tall and a tad over 200 pounds, doesn't matter. Those facts do not give anyone the right to shoot him.

That Zimmerman had called 911 some 50 times before, had attended anger management classes, tutored black children, was told by the 911 Dispatch that he didn't need to follow Martin, spoke harshly to Martin or should have allowed Martin to bash his head into the sidewalk until police arrived, doesn't matter. Those facts do not make Zimmerman guilty or not guilty of 2nd degree murder.

If we can all agree that Martin punched Zimmerman to the ground and continued to beat Zimmerman, then for no other reason except to save his life, Zimmerman shot Martin. All the rest does not matter. Simple.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

davel745 said:


> So how did he get cut?


I'm not saying it didn't happen the way he said, just make a comment about the picture.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

My sister was killed from a head injury. Not a scratch on her body, including her head.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> If we can all agree that Martin punched Zimmerman to the ground and continued to beat Zimmerman, then for no other reason except to save his life, Zimmerman shot Martin.


There seems to be those who do not accept that Martin punched Zimmerman... or that he beat his head into the ground. They prefer to create "other" scenarios that might explain the evidence. One of the better ones I have heard is that Zimmerman stalked and shot Martin... then layed down on the ground and beat his own head on the concrete to make it look like Martin had attacked him.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

thesedays said:


> Gangs are not just a black or Hispanic problem. My parents live in Des Moines, which has a large Bosnian refugee population and has since the mid 1990s, and some parts of that city have been taken over by Bosnian gangs. The media doesn't report on this, but the police blotter, which is online, backs this up.
> 
> If you don't know, these people are white, usually blond and blue-eyed.


I do know that Bosnians are white. That comment was not meant to indicate that just black people and hispanics are the only people who are uinvolved in gangs. As being in the white minority, though, I would be very concerned for members of my family who have to commute into town to go to school and to work in the midst of a tense racial situation going on.
No, I never read anything about Bosnian gangs. I did not even know anything about Bosnian refugees living in Des Moines. Amazing that the AP does not report on it. Maybe not though. They do seem to select the news that they want published.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

pancho said:


> My sister was killed from a head injury. Not a scratch on her body, including her head.


I am very sorry that you lost your sister.

When my oldest son was about to graduate from high school, he decided he wanted to paint the kitchen ceiling. We were having out of town relatives in for his graduation.
He was on a ladder, I came in from work, and switched the fan on because it was hot in the kitchen. The blades of the ceiling head hit him in the head.
It was my fault, of course. I took him to the ER. He never bled at all. The ER doctor told me that there was nothing much there but skin and bone. He did shave the area and stitch it though.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> My sister was killed from a head injury. Not a scratch on her body, including her head.


I'm so sorry about this, Pancho.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There seems to be those who do not accept that Martin punched Zimmerman... or that he beat his head into the ground. They prefer to create "other" scenarios that might explain the evidence. One of the better ones I have heard is that Zimmerman stalked and shot Martin... then layed down on the ground and beat his own head on the concrete to make it look like Martin had attacked him.


You really have to have a good imigination to come up with that one.
Really, you have to have a pretty good imigination coming up with anything else besides what the evidence points to.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There seems to be those who do not accept that Martin punched Zimmerman... or that he beat his head into the ground. They prefer to create "other" scenarios that might explain the evidence. One of the better ones I have heard is that Zimmerman stalked and shot Martin... then layed down on the ground and beat his own head on the concrete to make it look like Martin had attacked him.


Then paid the black neighbor to create a false eye witnass statement against Martin? The 50 or so other times that Zimmerman, while doing Neighborhood Watch, called 911, and didn't pull his gun, sounds like Zimmerman isn't apt to pull that gun and shoot. Something was different.

Just as the history of war is written by the victors, lacking any proof of that other nonsense, leaves the Jury with the facts as told by the survivor, Zimmerman and seconded by the eye witness.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> I'm so sorry about this, Pancho.


Thank you and gapeach also.
That was a long time ago. She could have probably been saved today but not back then.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

As a mother of a bi-racial child, comments like the ones Pancho is making really disturbs me. Just like any race, there are good and bad in each group. There are white on white killings, white on black, black on black and black on white. There are bad people in every race, in ever city, in every town, in every economical situations. Setting aside this whole bungled mess with Zimmerman and Martin, when we start allowing ourselves to hate an entire group based on the actions of some then you are robbing yourself of meeting some wonderful people. I've had people of all races that have stepped in to help me when I was in need. People are people, there is one race, the human race. When we allow ourselves to become prejudiced against an entire race because of some bad people then we are playing right into the hands of those who are trying to create race wars. I'd rather judge each person according to their character rather than the color of their skin.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

My 2 cents about head wounds. after 27 years working with high security prisoners, I've seen, first hand more head wounds than the average doctor. Slashes with a weapon fashoned from a shaving razor often bleed a lot. Impact injuries to the head, like from a padlock swung from a leather belt seldom bleed a lot, but swell a lot. Stab wounds around the head, like from a sharpened #2 yellow pencil, don't bleed at all. 
A broken nose will bleed a lot. Noticable if they hold their head down. Not noticable if they tip their head back and allow the blood to drain down the back of their throat. Not noticable if they stuff their nose with toilet paper.
White people's hands get marked up during fist fights. Black people it isn't as noticable.

"I'm going to stalk this guy and if I get a chance, I'll shoot him, then lay down, break my own nose and bash the back of my head open." Really?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> As a mother of a bi-racial child, comments like the ones Pancho is making really disturbs me. Just like any race, there are good and bad in each group. There are white on white killings, white on black, black on black and black on white. There are bad people in every race, in ever city, in every town, in every economical situations. Setting aside this whole bungled mess with Zimmerman and Martin, when we start allowing ourselves to hate an entire group based on the actions of some then you are robbing yourself of meeting some wonderful people. I've had people of all races that have stepped in to help me when I was in need. People are people, there is one race, the human race. When we allow ourselves to become prejudiced against an entire race because of some bad people then we are playing right into the hands of those who are trying to create race wars. I'd rather judge each person according to their character rather than the color of their skin.


I agree with much of what you have written. 
I am troubled that what I see as self-defense being turned into a race issue where almost no Blacks will accept the truth and see it as a political way to punish the "white guy" for the numerous injustices against black men in the past. Injustice is injustice no mater the color of the person's skin.

Look at the average Muslim that complains that they are unfairly judged by the actions of a very few Muslim radicals. Yet, we can't hear them speak out against the actions of those terriorists. In a similar way, when the Black population, led by JJ, AS and others, unite against Zimmerman, it showcases a level of Black racisim that sets equality back a hundred years.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> As a mother of a bi-racial child, comments like the ones Pancho is making really disturbs me. Just like any race, there are good and bad in each group. There are white on white killings, white on black, black on black and black on white. There are bad people in every race, in ever city, in every town, in every economical situations. Setting aside this whole bungled mess with Zimmerman and Martin, when we start allowing ourselves to hate an entire group based on the actions of some then you are robbing yourself of meeting some wonderful people. I've had people of all races that have stepped in to help me when I was in need. People are people, there is one race, the human race. When we allow ourselves to become prejudiced against an entire race because of some bad people then we are playing right into the hands of those who are trying to create race wars. I'd rather judge each person according to their character rather than the color of their skin.


Isn't that really what all of those people doing the marches and demonstrations are doing?
For some reason colored people are allowed to do that and white people can't say a word about it.
Look at the % of crimes committed by the colored. Then compare that to the % of colored people in the U.S.
Again, white people are not allowed to say such things.
Look at the number of colored people in our prisons.
Look at the number of colored people on some type of govt. assistance.
Compare those % to the % of colored people in the U.S.

If anyone would care to look up the % of the above they can see what I am talking about. I could give them to you but you wouldn't believe me.

It is about time people started speaking the truth. Being PC is great up to a point. We are well past that point and people need to speak up. If the colored people do not like it they might think about starting with their own race and make some differences. But they will just complain, riot, and march.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> "I'm going to stalk this guy and if I get a chance, I'll shoot him, then lay down, break my own nose and bash the back of my head open." Really?


And keep in mind he KNEW the police were on the way and would be there in a matter of minutes


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> Isn't that really what all of those people doing the marches and demonstrations are doing?
> For some reason colored people are allowed to do that and white people can't say a word about it.
> Look at the % of crimes committed by the colored. Then compare that to the % of colored people in the U.S.
> Again, white people are not allowed to say such things.
> ...


I think you might want to look at something other than color when you look at those percentages. Try cultural backgrounds instead.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Pls excuse me if this a little OT, but after watching Zimmerman in court last wk and the video of his release last night, he looks like he must have lost 50 lbs if he is the same person who was described as heavy and white Hispanic. He is as dark as most Hispanics and he is not heavy.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

gapeach said:


> Pls excuse me if this a little OT, but after watching Zimmerman in court last wk and the video of his release last night, he looks like he must have lost 50 lbs if he is the same person who was described as heavy and white Hispanic. He is as dark as most Hispanics and he is not heavy.


He hasn't lost much if any weight.

The early reports and pictures were just lies.

The most used picture of him in the orange jump suit was 5 years old.

He was actually SMALLER than Trayvon


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Those little boy pictures of Trayvon are the ones that are mostly still used.
Doesn't Trayvon weigh 240 lbs? How tall is Zimmerman?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

gapeach said:


> Those little boy pictures of Trayvon are the ones that are mostly still used.
> Doesn't Trayvon weigh 240 lbs? How tall is Zimmerman?


I don't know how much he weighed, but I don't think it was anywhere near 240. His height was by most accounts between 6'1" and 6'4". Zimmerman is reported to be 5'9".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

ryanthomas said:


> I don't know how much he weighed, but I don't think it was anywhere near 240. His height was by most accounts between 6'1" and 6'4". Zimmerman is reported to be 5'9".


If memory serves, on the partial police report I read that Trayvon was approx 6'3" and weighed about 170 pounds. Zimmerman was considerably shorter and approximately the same weight which makes him appear heavier.

I am 6' 4" and when I weighed 230 lbs I looked like a dying bean stalk. at 270 I looked about like Zimmerman did in the courtroom last week. Now, at nearly 300 I look more like the pillsbury dough boy.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The inforrmation I recall has Martin at 6'3" or 6'4" and 200 pounds. Zimmerman was listed as 5'9" and 240.
I wish I could get two people those sizes and about the ages of Martin and Zimmerman, standing side by side for a photo shoot. I think most people would admit Zimmerman would have felt threatened and Zimmerman wouldn't much of an imposing aggressor.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Zimmerman sure did not look 240 in court. If he is 5 foot 9 and 240, that is fat and he isn't.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

wwubben said:


> Zimmerman was wrong in being near the kid.


Zimmerman lived in the neighbor and had every right to be 'near' anyone in the neighborhood.



wwubben said:


> Zimmerman went after the kid,not the other way around.


Getting close to a strange person to get information is not necessarily 'going after' them.



wwubben said:


> *I think* Zimmerman approached the kid and made threats.The kid got scared and thought he only had one choice.


You *think?* So you have no regard whatsoever for any evidence that's been presented? No matter how much comes out that supports Zimmerman's assertions, you've already made up your mind who did what? I sincerely hope you're never on a jury. 

Under Florida law even if he did 'confront' Martin, but did not attack and then started to retreat or walk away, and Martin came after him, Martin then became the aggressor. 'Confronting' someone is NOT the same thing as 'attacking' them. Unless Zimmerman actually *attacked* Martin, Martin did have the 'choice' not to attack Zimmerman. 



wwuben said:


> I think Zimmerman will not be found guilty because he will have a biased jury like OJ did.


Any bias in the jury will be against Zimmerman. The media and people like you have made sure of that already.


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## sunny225 (Dec 4, 2009)

pancho said:


> Before this incident ever happened I was not a prejudice person. I looked at every person for what they were not their color. I would defend any person if I thought they were right no matter the color of their skin.
> This incident has changed my way of thinking. I find myself becoming more prejudice every day. No longer will I be around a colored person. No longer will a colored person be allowed on my property. No longer will I buy anything where I have to go through a checkout with a colored person working it.
> If a group of people a certain color are able, willing, and allowed to decide the guilt or innocent of a person strictly by their skin color I can do the same thing.
> In my area blacks commit the majority of crimes. I will treat every person with black skin the same way I would a crook.
> ...


This kind of change of attitude began for me when I saw Obama dismantling our country. 
MLK wanted everyone to be judged on their character & not the color of their skin. I've always tried to do that. But these kooks running our justice dept & the white house are listening to the most radical of the race baiters & are doing things based on the color of people's skins. 
The black thugs who were intimidating people at the polling station in Philly in 2008? Nothing done to them. And these are the same people who showed up in Florida with wanted dead or alive posters for Zimmerman. Have they been charged or even reprimanded by Holder & BHO? NOt that I've heard.
You wonder why people would start thinking like Pancho?
I wonder why more people aren't admitting the same thing.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

wwubben said:


> Have you ever seen such a small amount of blood from a lacerated scalp?The blood looks thin.It has not clotted at all.You don't need Neveda to tell you this looks like a fake.I can tell you that.I would not be surprised if the kid did fight with him though.I think the kid was defending himself against this guy.


The blood looks "thin" because his head was washed/rinsed so they could get an actual photo of the lacerations. As soon as it was washed/rinsed they to a picture. Water was still on his skin ans that's why it looks"thin".


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If memory serves, on the partial police report I read that Trayvon was approx 6'3" and weighed about 170 pounds. Zimmerman was considerably shorter and approximately the same weight which makes him appear heavier.


I looked it up. They estimated Martin to be 6'0" and about 160 pounds. It's hard to judge someone's height and weight when they're laying on the ground, though. His family says he was 6'3" and no more than 150 pounds, but their information can't be trusted either. It will be interesting to find out if they weighed his body at the autopsy.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

gapeach said:


> Zimmerman sure did not look 240 in court. If he is 5 foot 9 and 240, that is fat and he isn't.


Yeah, I think I read that he was 240-260 quite a while ago, but not at the time of the shooting. And then he probably lost 20 pounds or so since that night. His dad and brother said he hadn't been able to eat much.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

haypoint said:


> The information I recall has Martin at 6'3" or 6'4" and 200 pounds. Zimmerman was listed as 5'9" and 240.
> I wish I could get two people those sizes and about the ages of Martin and Zimmerman, standing side by side for a photo shoot. I think most people would admit Zimmerman would have felt threatened and Zimmerman wouldn't much of an imposing aggressor.


I remember several different sets of stats, and I remember that every time I saw a new stat, Zimmerman weighed less and Martin weighed more. Also, the first two times i heard Martin's stats talked about, it was something like 130# and 6' tall, the 140# and 6'3" tall. Turns out, the first set was partly made up -- 130# was wrong -- but the height was from the beginning of the 2010-1011 school year. The second set had his height from this year, but they got the weight wrong. Weather this was on purpose or not, and who supplied the wrong/made up the stats, I don't know.

As for Zimmerman, those stats were accurate back when he was 20. They took him in for questioning the night of the shooting, and got his stats then -- height/weight/mugshot/prints, but those were either not released to the media or the media didn't think they fit the narrative that the media wanted to sell.

Either way, just looking at Zimmerman, there is no way that he weighed 240# that night, and no way he is 200# now.

I agree with you about the photo shoot, though. The media has done their best to portray Martin as a sweet, innocent kid, up to and including refusing to seek or publish recent photos of him until after they have been scooped by bloggers and plastered across the internet.

Sadly, most of the newest Martin pics have been published in the National Enquirer before they were posted on places, like NBC, ABC, Yahoo, or even the AP website.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Home Harvest said:


> The pics don't change anything for me. All along I've said they should investigate what happened prior to the altercation. There were plenty of witnesses to the fight. No question how that went down. I think the lawyer on ABC hit the nail on the head, it depends on who the jury finds was the aggressor. You can't start a fight, then claim self defense because you are losing.
> 
> I'd love to hear Martin's testimony of what was said prior to the fight. Oh, that's right, he's dead. I guess Zimmerman will get away with it then.
> 
> Sorry, but I still think Zimmerman likely said something that started the fight. Without Martin around to testify, I think Zimmerman walks.


"Said something that started the fight"? Really? You can hit people for speaking? For saying something you don't like? I thought, "Them's fightin' words" went out with the Old West.
Come to think of it, I don't like what you typed. I think what you typed is starting a fight. Does that give me the go-ahead to punch yor lights out?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Really never lower youself to judging by race. I understand that there as some loud mouth hateful people with access to the media whipping up the racial divide. Look at those who are doing that ---simple low lifes attempting to destroy. Each of us has a choice to sink in to what they (the hatefilled lowlifes) want to MOLD and indoctornate ALL black white yellow to follow. Be a leader --judge each person by how they are not what race they are or what sex they are or faith they are. 

OK if I am in a high crime rate area, I will be on alert for a threat/ Race in not a threat. The threat is from any person out to do harm or commit a crime. 

It saddenes me to see/read that any one I respect here could be fooled to be moldeed by evil people out to cripple our Nation. We all can be better than this. Stand up againts evil doers --they come in all shapes and colors. Anger destroys the person who holds on to it. PROVE them wrong.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

There are bad people and good people of all races. There are always going to be people of all sides too who love to keep the pots of hate stirred. I really don't think this is just a problem in the United States either. 
When we were in Ireland, some of the people there were very upset that Jamaicans were coming into to their country to live. They did not want them there. When we were traveling in Ireland it was very unusual to see any race but whites. No blacks in the pubs and that was 7 years ago. 
The US is not the only country who held slaves either. Slavery is terrible and still goes on today in some places. 
I have lived a long time and I really hate to see race relations being set back so far by the racists who are leading our government now. It is really sad.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> In the area where I live if you drive into a gas station and get gas, if the person working there is colored you will have to wait until any colored people have gotten their gas before you can. I have even had the law called on me and I had to move my car from in front of the pumps so a colored person could get gas before me.
> 
> I live just south of Jackson, Ms. The city is over 90% colored. If a white person goes into Jackson they are subject to being stopped just because they are white. There have been 3 attempts to rob me in the last 5 years. All by colored men. None were successful but I didn't even call the police because I would have been the one going to jail.
> 
> ...


Funny, if you were to go back about 50 years, I expect you'd find the situation reversed. 

Now that black people have the upper hand, white people expect them to behave much better than they themselves did when they were running things. Then they're surprised and disappointed when that doesn't happen.

But that isn't how human nature works. 

I had firsthand experience with this. I worked for 5 years on an Indian reservation where my blonde hair and green eyes meant I was automatically disliked by about 2/3 of the people with whom I came into contact on any given day. Did this make for a long day sometimes? You betcha! 

But by the same token, those people who were being rude to me had been mistreated for generations by the white people in town. They had some basis for their prejudice. I'm certain they felt it was justified.

I think it's unrealistic for white people to expect that just because _we've_ decided to stop treating minorities badly, all should be forgiven -- instantly! -- and everyone ought to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" now. 

I don't think there is a broad, easy solution. I do know that in my situation, as I interacted with people over the course of time, some decided I was OK. A few even accepted me as a friend. If the battle is to be won, I think change will come about slowly, due to people interacting with those of other races and having experiences that contradict their initial prejudices.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Willow Girl, it has to work both ways. We are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors. The Indians were treated terribly and it was so unfair to them. 
By the same token, the Irish were treated miserably when they came into this country in Virginia and other ports. They were laborers though and eventually came to be accepted but it took a long time.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> Really never lower youself to judging by race. I understand that there as some loud mouth hateful people with access to the media whipping up the racial divide. Look at those who are doing that ---simple low lifes attempting to destroy. Each of us has a choice to sink in to what they (the hatefilled lowlifes) want to MOLD and indoctornate ALL black white yellow to follow. Be a leader --judge each person by how they are not what race they are or what sex they are or faith they are.
> 
> OK if I am in a high crime rate area, I will be on alert for a threat/ Race in not a threat. The threat is from any person out to do harm or commit a crime.
> 
> It saddenes me to see/read that any one I respect here could be fooled to be moldeed by evil people out to cripple our Nation. We all can be better than this. Stand up againts evil doers --they come in all shapes and colors. Anger destroys the person who holds on to it. PROVE them wrong.


You don't judge by race but you assign threat levels by stats. Say you are walking down the street in a so-so area and see a group of people 'hanging out' on the sidewalk. Do you assign the same threat level to the group if its made up of 60+ y.o. women as if it was 15-20 y.o. men? Why not are you sexist or ageist? After all should you be judging people based on their sex and/or age? Or could it be you know that statistically most violent street crime is committed by males between 15 and 25 therefore common sense tells you that you should be more on guard when you see a group of people that gender and age.

I hate to tell you this but if you look at the stats a little closer you will see that the largest percentage of violent street crime is committed by non-white males between the ages of 15 and 25. Therefore if you see a group a non-white males in this age range you should assign them a higher threat level than if they were white. That's not being any more racist than someone in the other situation being sexist.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

gapeach said:


> Willow Girl, it has to work both ways. We are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors. The Indians were treated terribly and it was so unfair to them.
> By the same token, the Irish were treated miserably when they came into this country in Virginia and other ports. They were laborers though and eventually came to be accepted but it took a long time.


I am part Indian and rest Irish.
Guess I have a reason for believing the way I do.
So I have as much right to do the same things the colored people are doing in Florida. My mother's side of the family came from a Cherokee slave.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> I agree with much of what you have written.
> I am troubled that what I see as self-defense being turned into a race issue where almost no Blacks will accept the truth and see it as a political way to punish the "white guy" for the numerous injustices against black men in the past. Injustice is injustice no mater the color of the person's skin.
> 
> Look at the average Muslim that complains that they are unfairly judged by the actions of a very few Muslim radicals. Yet, we can't hear them speak out against the actions of those terriorists. In a similar way, when the Black population, led by JJ, AS and others, unite against Zimmerman, it showcases a level of Black racisim that sets equality back a hundred years.


It's not just the blacks, as is obvious by Pancho's comments. This is stirring up blacks and whites. No one is willing to wait for the justice department and the courts to do their jobs and you have people in high places that are fanning the flames. I have heard blacks speak out about what is going on, but they are not being heard because those who want violence get all the media attention and support from government officials.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Isn't that really what all of those people doing the marches and demonstrations are doing?
> For some reason colored people are allowed to do that and white people can't say a word about it.
> Look at the % of crimes committed by the colored. Then compare that to the % of colored people in the U.S.
> Again, white people are not allowed to say such things.
> ...


White people can march. White people can protest. As for the number of blacks in the prison system that is a two edged sword. I know you won't believe this because you have already shown me your thoughts as far as blacks go, but many times a black person will be arrested and locked up before a white person will for doing the same thing. Statistics can show this if you looked it up. Yes, many times blacks are given placement in college or jobs due to the color of their skin and I don't agree with that, although I understand the reason it was first instituted. Blacks are not the only ones on welfare. I don't have the statistics of how many blacks compared to white on assistance, but IMO all assistance should be stopped or at least revamped.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

kasilofhome said:


> Really never lower youself to judging by race. I understand that there as some loud mouth hateful people with access to the media whipping up the racial divide. Look at those who are doing that ---simple low lifes attempting to destroy. Each of us has a choice to sink in to what they (the hatefilled lowlifes) want to MOLD and indoctornate ALL black white yellow to follow. Be a leader --judge each person by how they are not what race they are or what sex they are or faith they are.
> 
> OK if I am in a high crime rate area, I will be on alert for a threat/ Race in not a threat. The threat is from any person out to do harm or commit a crime.
> 
> It saddenes me to see/read that any one I respect here could be fooled to be moldeed by evil people out to cripple our Nation. We all can be better than this. Stand up againts evil doers --they come in all shapes and colors. Anger destroys the person who holds on to it. PROVE them wrong.


These threads have definitely opened my eyes to certain people in HT. Their words are doing nothing but stirring the pot, which IMO makes them no different than the Sharptons and Jacksons of this world.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Funny, if you were to go back about 50 years, I expect you'd find the situation reversed.
> 
> Now that black people have the upper hand, white people expect them to behave much better than they themselves did when they were running things. Then they're surprised and disappointed when that doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


There's still a lot of people who mistreat blacks because of the color of their skin. I've seen it many times.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

gapeach said:


> Willow Girl, it has to work both ways. We are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors. The Indians were treated terribly and it was so unfair to them.
> By the same token, the Irish were treated miserably when they came into this country in Virginia and other ports. They were laborers though and eventually came to be accepted but it took a long time.


In some areas Indians are still treated badly. In some areas blacks are still treated badly. It's not just something that happened in our ancestors days. Is it better, yes, but it has never completely stopped and I seriously doubt it ever will.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> You don't judge by race but you assign threat levels by stats. Say you are walking down the street in a so-so area and see a group of people 'hanging out' on the sidewalk. Do you assign the same threat level to the group if its made up of 60+ y.o. women as if it was 15-20 y.o. men? Why not are you sexist or ageist? After all should you be judging people based on their sex and/or age? Or could it be you know that statistically most violent street crime is committed by males between 15 and 25 therefore common sense tells you that you should be more on guard when you see a group of people that gender and age.
> 
> I hate to tell you this but if you look at the stats a little closer you will see that the largest percentage of violent street crime is committed by non-white males between the ages of 15 and 25. Therefore if you see a group a non-white males in this age range you should assign them a higher threat level than if they were white. That's not being any more racist than someone in the other situation being sexist.


If I saw a group of 15 to 25 year old males hanging out, regardless of their color, I would be cautious, more so depending on their actions.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> White people can march. White people can protest. As for the number of blacks in the prison system that is a two edged sword. I know you won't believe this because you have already shown me your thoughts as far as blacks go, but many times a black person will be arrested and locked up before a white person will for doing the same thing. Statistics can show this if you looked it up. Yes, many times blacks are given placement in college or jobs due to the color of their skin and I don't agree with that, although I understand the reason it was first instituted. Blacks are not the only ones on welfare. I don't have the statistics of how many blacks compared to white on assistance, but IMO all assistance should be stopped or at least revamped.


When was the last time you saw or read about a group of white people marching or protesting that a black person should be arrested for defending themselves? 

I do have the stats on the numbers of blacks in prison and the number of blacks on welfare.
Just one I will post. According to the 2010 census blacks make up 12.2% of the population of the U.S. Blacks make up 33% of the number of people on welfare. 

I haven't always been prejudice. That is something that is very new to me. It was caused by what is happening all across the U.S. because of what happened in Florida. If you look back through my posts you will see I have stood up for the underdog ever since I became a mamber. Color didn't mean a thing to me. I have argued that fact many times. There are quite a few on this forum that can tell you how I have argued even for the illegals in the U.S. There comes a time when people have to look at the facts. It is very hard to defend others when the majority are calling for a war against you just because of your color. To some it will seem like I am becomming the same as those I am complaining about. That may be true. But when a person spends over half a century defending people only to be grouped together as a group they want to destroy it is time to step back and take a real good look. I am doing that now and do not like what I see. I will meet anyone half way but I am not going to do anymore than they are willing to do.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

pancho said:


> When was the last time you saw or read about a group of white people marching or protesting that a black person should be arrested for defending themselves?
> 
> I do have the stats on the numbers of blacks in prison and the number of blacks on welfare.
> Just one I will post. According to the 2010 census blacks make up 12.2% of the population of the U.S. Blacks make up 33% of the number of people on welfare.
> ...


It's called self preservation!

My family has been here since 1737, we've never owned slaves, never fought against the Indians etc... Yet if there is a riot of some sort against whites, we would be harmed just because of others hatred.... 

Well guess what, I am one of 2 in my family that served in the military.. I see what's coming and have been trained to deal with it... While the only color I see is camouflage, I will deal with any group that tries to surround or corner me... Regardless of color...

I will use what ever means necessary to defend "me and mine". 

These groups and their race baiter leaders and hate monger will pay a price if they try to get near me... I will avoid them if possible, but won't tolerate their hatred and their desire to steal or harm me or my family... 

Yes I may die, but it won't be until they shed lots of blood themselves..But that is the path they want to walk.. If they change their path, that would make me happy, but it isn't likely.. So be it!


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## sirquack (Feb 18, 2009)

wwubben said:


> Zimmerman was wrong in being near the kid.Zimmerman went after the kid,not the other way around.I think Zimmerman approached the kid and made threats.The kid got scared and thought he only had one choice.I think Zimmerman will not be found guilty because he will have a biased jury like OJ did.


I believe you have a problem in 'thinking' anything here. You were not there. Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin ran as the advice of his girlfriend who was on the phone with him. If he was scared, he could have just said so to GZ and GZ might have told him he was just asking due to his duties as neighborhood watch. But we will never 'know' because Martin ran, attacked GZ and got shot. 

And it is funny you mention there will be a biased jury for GZ. I am going out on a limb here and saying this never reaches trial. I think the charges will be dismissed and the black community will riot worse than we say in Los Angeles. It is a sad state of affairs when guilt or innocense is determined by the mob and not by the system.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> When was the last time you saw or read about a group of white people marching or protesting that a black person should be arrested for defending themselves?
> 
> I do have the stats on the numbers of blacks in prison and the number of blacks on welfare.
> Just one I will post. According to the 2010 census blacks make up 12.2% of the population of the U.S. Blacks make up 33% of the number of people on welfare.
> ...


Do you realize that if a black person and a white person commits the same crime that many times the white person will get away with a slap on the wrist while the black person will be sent to jail?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> If I saw a group of 15 to 25 year old males hanging out, regardless of their color, I would be cautious, more so depending on their actions.


But would you be more cautious if they were whites wearing button collar shirts and khakis or if they were black wearing jeans showing their undies and hoodies? Now be honest with us.


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## sirquack (Feb 18, 2009)

thesedays said:


> Gangs are not just a black or Hispanic problem. My parents live in Des Moines, which has a large Bosnian refugee population and has since the mid 1990s, and some parts of that city have been taken over by Bosnian gangs. The media doesn't report on this, but the police blotter, which is online, backs this up.
> 
> If you don't know, these people are white, usually blond and blue-eyed.


I would love to see these police blotters you are talking about. I live in Des Moines and the vast majority of crimes are still committed by blacks. And the percent of the population is less than 10% black in Des Moines. Yes I know there are gangs, but the gangs causing a majority of the problems are the gangs who take the cheap bus ride from Chicago and come to Des Moines to raise havoc. 
So I want to make sure people know the real facts since I live it every day. And don't assume I have a particular dislike for blacks as some of my closest friends are black. I just dislike people who have a chip on their shoulder and expect others to take care of them because of it, and that includes all races.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

beowoulf90 said:


> It's called self preservation!
> 
> My family has been here since 1737, we've never owned slaves, never fought against the Indians etc... Yet if there is a riot of some sort against whites, we would be harmed just because of others hatred....
> 
> ...



Yes I agree... Our families were all immigrant poor early 1900's.. we never owned slaves and neither was raised to be anything but fair to all.. BUT if at anytime people want to start something with us over their idiotic feelings and farce of "social justice" I will not be tolerant. I will protect myself and my family if this stuff gets anywhere near me. I live in the deep south.. I am beginning to hear and see rumblings where I never had before.. the large cities around me could easily ignite here and I will not allow us to be in any danger.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not usually a big fan of Huffington Post, but found this information I thought helped explain a bit aboue blacks in prison:

Keith Rushing: The Reasons Why So Many Black People Are in Prison Go Well Beyond Profiling

And for those who don't trust anything Huffingtonpost says, here's another link:

BRIA 9 1 c Does the Criminal Justice System Discriminate Against African-Americans? - Constitutional Rights Foundation

A Rand Institute study in 1983, however, unearthed some disturbing data. Rand compared the treatment of whites and blacks at key decision points in the criminal justice system, such as sentencing. The researchers found that black defendants seemed to be treated more harshly. However, the researchers did not identify a cause for these inequalities. Later studies have provided more insight into this troubling data.

Plea Bargaining

The San Jose Mercury News conducted a massive study of 700,000 California legal cases over a 10-year period. The paper reported in December 1991 that 33 percent of the white adults who were arrested, but had no prior record, were able to get felony charges against them reduced. Only 25 percent of the African-Americans and Latinos with no priors were as successful in plea bargaining.

The Mercury News study did not blame intentional racism for these inequalities. It did, however, suggest that subtle cultural fears and insensitivity contributed to the problem. The study noted that over 80 percent of all California prosecutors and judges are white, while more than 60 percent of those arrested are non-white.

Jury Verdicts

In 1985, Cornell law professor Sheri Lynn Johnson reviewed a dozen mock jury studies. She concluded that the "race of the defendant significantly and directly affects the determination of guilt." In these studies, identical trials were simulated, sometimes with white defendants and sometimes with African-Americans. Professor Johnson discovered that white jurors were more likely to find a black defendant guilty than a white defendant, even though the mock trials were based on the same crime and the same evidence.

And Professor Johnson found that black jurors behaved with the reverse bias. They found white defendants guilty more often than black defendants. Furthermore, the race of the victim in the case affected both groups. If the victim was black, white jurors tended to find a white defendant less blameworthy. In the same way, if the victim was white, black jurors found black defendants less blameworthy.

According to these mock jury experiments, both white and black jurors seem to discriminate. Professor Johnson, however, did not think the juror bias was intentional. "Because the process of attributing guilt on the basis of race appears to be subconscious," Johnson says, "jurors are unlikely either to be aware of or to be able to control that process."

The mock trials did have one encouraging result. When white and black mock jurors met together, as many real juries do, the effect of race tended to disappear. This result seems to indicate that the best way to eliminate racial bias in verdicts is to select racially mixed juries. The U.S. Supreme Court has moved in this direction by prohibiting both prosecutors and defense lawyers from eliminating prospective jurors solely because of race. [See Batson v. Kentucky (1986) and Georgia v. McCollum (1992)]

Sentencing

The 1983 Rand Institute study found that convicted African-Americans were more likely than whites to go to prison. And their sentences were longer. "This disparity," the study concluded, "suggests that probation officers, judges, and parole boards are exercising discretion in sentencing and/or release decisions in ways that result in de facto discrimination against blacks." De facto means the discrimination exists in fact, but without legal authority -- and it may not be intentional.

Unintended discrimination can occur at many points in the legal process. Probation officers often prepare reports to help judges make sentencing decisions. Reports include information on the criminal's prior record and background. Since many African-American criminals grow up poor, their records often show problems like unemployment and violence in the home. Judges could often be tempted to assume black criminals are more dangerous than white criminals, who more often come from middle-class backgrounds. Some observers feel that such assumptions can lead judges to sentence black offenders more harshly than white offenders.

Death Penalty

The state of Georgia was the subject of a careful study of 2,000 murder cases prosecuted during the 1970s. The study showed that defendants convicted of killing whites were more than four times more likely to receive the death penalty than those convicted of murdering blacks. The study also revealed that black defendants who murdered whites had by far the greatest chance of being sentenced to death.

A Georgia black man who had been sentenced to death for killing a white police officer used this study in his appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. He claimed the study proved that Georgia's jurors and judges discriminated against African-American defendants. In a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court accepted the results of the study, but ruled that it did not prove the discrimination was intentional. Writing for the majority, Justice Lewis F. Powell concluded that the study failed to "demonstrate a constitutionally significant risk of racial bias affecting the Georgia capital sentencing process." [McCleskey v. Kemp (1987)]

On the whole, most studies confirm that some racial discrimination exists in the American criminal justice system, but that it is not intentional. It is rooted in subtle assumptions and fears that are deeply ingrained in the wider society. Critics of the system, however, insist that inequalities, regardless of their basis, should not be swept under the rug. They maintain that any discrimination is intolerable, and we must all make a serious attempt to do away with it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> But would you be more cautious if they were whites wearing button collar shirts and khakis or if they were black wearing jeans showing their undies and hoodies? Now be honest with us.


That's comparing apples to green beans. If it was whites wearing black jeans and their pants hanging down etc, I would feel the same as I would blacks wearing the same attire. The same goes for if they are wearing button collar shirts and khakis. Has nothing to do with color.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Do you realize that if a black person and a white person commits the same crime that many times the white person will get away with a slap on the wrist while the black person will be sent to jail?


Who decides what the punishment for a crime will be?
Look at what happened in the O.J. trial.
Many times the attorney will have a lot to do with the punishment.
A person who works for a living and can afford his own attorney will usually have a better one.
A person who does not work and can't afford n attorney will have to settle for what is given to him.
Many times, working or living off welfare has more to do with the punishment.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Do you realize that if a black person and a white person commits the same crime that many times the white person will get away with a slap on the wrist while the black person will be sent to jail?


If you have the stats to prove that, then you need to seperate the types of felonies committed. Statistically, Blacks commit more violent felonies and whites commit less felonies. In Michigan, Blacks make up 17% of the population, yet fill 70% of the prison beds. If you put all the blame on the Criminal Justice System, you are in serious denial.

Sometimes a felon can get less jail time, if they have a support system, a family that will work with them to help keep them out of trouble. Felons without any non-criminal friends or family go to prison. Since 70% of all black babies are born to a single mother, that may contribute to the lack of family support 18 years later. I don't know.

In Michigan, breaking into a home isn't going to get a Detroit black man sent to prison, but in rural Michigan, a white kid can go to prison for breaking and entering. That's because Detroit has bigger issues to deal with, but in rural Michigan, with very low crime rates, a B&E is a big deal.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Who decides what the punishment for a crime will be?
> Look at what happened in the O.J. trial.
> Many times the attorney will have a lot to do with the punishment.
> A person who works for a living and can afford his own attorney will usually have a better one.
> ...


In answer to your comment I would ask you to veiw the Casey Anthony trial and verdict.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> If you have the stats to prove that, then you need to seperate the types of felonies committed. Statistically, Blacks commit more violent felonies and whites commit less felonies. In Michigan, Blacks make up 17% of the population, yet fill 70% of the prison beds. If you put all the blame on the Criminal Justice System, you are in serious denial.
> 
> Sometimes a felon can get less jail time, if they have a support system, a family that will work with them to help keep them out of trouble. Felons without any non-criminal friends or family go to prison. Since 70% of all black babies are born to a single mother, that may contribute to the lack of family support 18 years later. I don't know.
> 
> In Michigan, breaking into a home isn't going to get a Detroit black man sent to prison, but in rural Michigan, a white kid can go to prison for breaking and entering. That's because Detroit has bigger issues to deal with, but in rural Michigan, with very low crime rates, a B&E is a big deal.


I posted a couple of links in the post after I posted this.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> In answer to your comment I would ask you to veiw the Casey Anthony trial and verdict.


In that case the prosecution had absolutely no evidence.
The jury really didn't have any other choice.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> In that case the prosecution had absolutely no evidence.
> The jury really didn't have any other choice.


Maybe, but this whole Zimmerman/Martin situation reminds me of the Casey case because of the whole media trying it before it actually went to court. By the time it went to court just about everyone was sure she was guilty and she also recieved death threats. That's the problem with the media voicing their opinions rather than just the facts. Makes me wonder if such a thing as a fair trial is even possible these days in high profile cases.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> The San Jose Mercury News conducted a massive study of 700,000 California legal cases over a 10-year period. The paper reported in December 1991 that 33 percent of the white adults who were arrested, but had no prior record, were able to get felony charges against them reduced. Only 25 percent of the African-Americans and Latinos with no priors were as successful in plea bargaining.


The type of felony has a lot to do with the plea. Violent felonies are a lot less likely to get plead than non-violent ones. Comparing someone who beat someone into a coma to someone who skimmed money from the tax man isn't fair.

The person's background does have a lot to do with it as well. Someone who is an unemployed high school drop out w/o a job or a 'dead end' job is also much less likely to be given a plea than say a college grad. Like it or not they are looked as less likely to "turn their life around".




Sonshine said:


> Unintended discrimination can occur at many points in the legal process. Probation officers often prepare reports to help judges make sentencing decisions. Reports include information on the criminal's prior record and background. Since many African-American criminals grow up poor, their records often show problems like unemployment and violence in the home. Judges could often be tempted to assume black criminals are more dangerous than white criminals, who more often come from middle-class backgrounds. Some observers feel that such assumptions can lead judges to sentence black offenders more harshly than white offenders.


There you go. Its more about the person's background than their skin color.




Sonshine said:


> On the whole, most studies confirm that some racial discrimination exists in the American criminal justice system, but that it is not intentional. It is rooted in subtle assumptions and fears that are deeply ingrained in the wider society. Critics of the system, however, insist that inequalities, regardless of their basis, should not be swept under the rug. They maintain that any discrimination is intolerable, and we must all make a serious attempt to do away with it.


Again the problem does not seem to come from the color of the person's skin but his background. I'd love to see how these stats would break down for individual felonies (first you have gota compare apples vs apples)using education, employment history and income as the deciding factor. I'm willing to bet you'd see a fairly steady curve, as each of those factors get better the percentage of pleas goes up.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> That's comparing apples to green beans. If it was whites wearing black jeans and their pants hanging down etc, I would feel the same as I would blacks wearing the same attire. The same goes for if they are wearing button collar shirts and khakis. Has nothing to do with color.


Ok, make them green and wearing hanging jeans and hoodies vs another group of green wearing khakis and button collar shirts. Would you assign each group the same threat level? Say you were walking down an unknown neighborhood after dark and a group came out of a store and started walking behind you. After a while you noticed they had increased their pace and were now closing the gap between you and them. Would you feel more uncomfortable if the group was the button collar shirts or the hoodies?


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## airotciv (Mar 6, 2005)

I watch to much Court TV. Until the trial comes up, we have no clue what happened. No judgement, until I see all the evidence.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Maybe, but this whole Zimmerman/Martin situation reminds me of the Casey case because of the whole media trying it before it actually went to court. By the time it went to court just about everyone was sure she was guilty and she also recieved death threats. That's the problem with the media voicing their opinions rather than just the facts. Makes me wonder if such a thing as a fair trial is even possible these days in high profile cases.


I agree.
They are pretty much the same.
In both cases the prosecutors didn't have a case.
They pressed charges because of media coverage.
I don't think there is a chance of a fair trial in most cases. Especially not when the media gets involved.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

watcher said:


> Ok, make them green and wearing hanging jeans and hoodies vs another group of green wearing khakis and button collar shirts. Would you assign each group the same threat level? Say you were walking down an unknown neighborhood after dark and a group came out of a store and started walking behind you. After a while you noticed they had increased their pace and were now closing the gap between you and them. Would you feel more uncomfortable if the group was the button collar shirts or the hoodies?


So you finally see the point that skin color is not a main factor in threat assessment? Yes, the way people choose to dress is one _potential_ indicator of their character, no matter what color they are. Upon first seeing someone walking toward me on the street I consider a guy dressed like a gangster to be more likely to be a threat than a well dressed guy...at least in terms of my physical safety. But when it comes to honesty and fairness in business dealings, that's another story. The folks trying to screw me in business are wearing Armani more often than Fubu.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Ã¢â¬ËThatÃ¢â¬â¢s justice for TrayvonÃ¢â¬â¢ &#8211; bloodthirsty mob severely beat white man &#8211; Glenn Beck


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> Ok, make them green and wearing hanging jeans and hoodies vs another group of green wearing khakis and button collar shirts. Would you assign each group the same threat level? Say you were walking down an unknown neighborhood after dark and a group came out of a store and started walking behind you. After a while you noticed they had increased their pace and were now closing the gap between you and them. Would you feel more uncomfortable if the group was the button collar shirts or the hoodies?


Well, if they were green I guess I may be asking for their green cards. LOL As to walking down an unknown neighborhood and having someone following me, it wouldn't matter what the color of their skin was or even what they were wearing, I'd still be cautious. I think most have trouble believing that color really doesn't matter to me.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Ã¢â¬ËThatÃ¢â¬â¢s justice for TrayvonÃ¢â¬â¢ â bloodthirsty mob severely beat white man â Glenn Beck


Yeah, I saw that on GBTV today. I place the blame on our elected officials for things getting so out of hand. They were so quick to start talking about the Zimmerman/Martin case, yet seem so silent now.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Yeah, I saw that on GBTV today. I place the blame on our elected officials for things getting so out of hand. They were so quick to start talking about the Zimmerman/Martin case, yet seem so silent now.


Who were the elected officials that brought attention to the Zimmerman/Martin incident? Jessie isn't elected, Al Sharpton isn't elected. Ohhhh, now I know who you mean......


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Who were the elected officials that brought attention to the Zimmerman/Martin incident? Jessie isn't elected, Al Sharpton isn't elected. Ohhhh, now I know who you mean......


Members of the Black caucus came out and talked about Zimmerman hunting down Treyvon and killing him. Don't remember her name, but remember seeing it on one of the news channels.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Members of the Black caucus came out and talked about Zimmerman hunting down Treyvon and killing him. Don't remember her name, but remember seeing it on one of the news channels.


and what did the members of the White caucus do? Ohhhh....... The Whites don't need a White caucus, they are the majority and it is their turn to sit down and shut up.eep:


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> and what did the members of the White caucus do? Ohhhh....... The Whites don't need a White caucus, they are the majority and it is their turn to sit down and shut up.eep:


Racist!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> and what did the members of the White caucus do? Ohhhh....... The Whites don't need a White caucus, they are the majority and it is their turn to sit down and shut up.eep:


I have always complained about the whole black caucus thing. Most people don't get it, I don't just side with a race because of the color of their skin and when I see things like the black caucus I speak out against it. Just like I don't like the whole African American, Latin American, Asian American terms. To me, you're either American or your not.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

beowoulf90 said:


> Racist!


Racist, racist!

Feel better?


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Racist, racist!
> 
> Feel better?


Thanks for caring how I felt! But when you post things like;

"The Whites don't need a White caucus, they are the majority and it is their turn to sit down and shut up"


Joking or not, expect to get called a racist....

Oh by the way There was no change in the way I felt...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is plenty of information that you can read and form your own opinion about what goes on in a city with a large Black population. Yes, whites do commit crimes, too. But Michigan has 4 of the top ten deadliest cities, Detroit, Pontiac, Flint and Saginaw. Besides violent crime and high unemployment, guess what else they have in common?

MyFOX Detroit | Local News


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> So you finally see the point that skin color is not a main factor in threat assessment? Yes, the way people choose to dress is one _potential_ indicator of their character, no matter what color they are. Upon first seeing someone walking toward me on the street I consider a guy dressed like a gangster to be more likely to be a threat than a well dressed guy...at least in terms of my physical safety. But when it comes to honesty and fairness in business dealings, that's another story. The folks trying to screw me in business are wearing Armani more often than Fubu.


So you think Zimmerman was correct in assigning the guy he saw wearing a hoodie and acting strange (to him) a high threat level?

BTW, skin color may not be the main factor but it IS a factor.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Well, if they were green I guess I may be asking for their green cards. LOL As to walking down an unknown neighborhood and having someone following me, it wouldn't matter what the color of their skin was or even what they were wearing, I'd still be cautious. I think most have trouble believing that color really doesn't matter to me.


How about you answer the question asked? I'll repeat it for you. 

Would you feel more uncomfortable if the group was the button collar shirts or the hoodies?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> How about you answer the question asked? I'll repeat it for you.
> 
> Would you feel more uncomfortable if the group was the button collar shirts or the hoodies?


I did answer, you just don't like my answer.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Here is plenty of information that you can read and form your own opinion about what goes on in a city with a large Black population. Yes, whites do commit crimes, too. But Michigan has 4 of the top ten deadliest cities, Detroit, Pontiac, Flint and Saginaw. Besides violent crime and high unemployment, guess what else they have in common?
> 
> MyFOX Detroit | Local News


All cities have higher incidents of violent crimes and when you add in high unemployment it's a powder keg. I lived in the second largest city in Illinois growing up, Rockford, and I lived on the "bad side of town". I saw good and bad black people in the area. Guess that's where I learned not to judge by the color of their skin, but by the individual actions and character. I went to a school that was predeominately black. I went to a church that was predominately black. I had black friends before I had white friends. I also know the differences in how most people treat blacks versus how they treat whites. Just read some of the comments and see if you can't see the differences. Everyone is falling for the garbage that the media, the politicians and the civil rights leaders want them to, they are making this all about race. It's not. It's about two men, meeting in the early evening hours. An altercation happened and one of the men got his head banged up and the other man was shot and killed. Beyond that, I don't care about what color who was. I would like for the judicial system to be able to do their job without all the violent rhetoric in the black and white communities.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Here is plenty of information that you can read and form your own opinion about what goes on in a city with a large Black population. Yes, whites do commit crimes, too. But Michigan has 4 of the top ten deadliest cities, Detroit, Pontiac, Flint and Saginaw. Besides violent crime and high unemployment, guess what else they have in common?
> 
> MyFOX Detroit | Local News


The problem with this is that it has NOTHING to do with color... it has to do with attitudes... you know... that stuff that forms in a persons brain... not their skin.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Everyone is falling for the garbage that the media, the politicians and the civil rights leaders want them to, they are making this all about race. It's not. It's about two men, meeting in the early evening hours. An altercation happened and one of the men got his head banged up and the other man was shot and killed. Beyond that, I don't care about what color who was. I would like for the judicial system to be able to do their job without all the violent rhetoric in the black and white communities.


Sonshine, the media, the politicians, and the civil rights leaders are not by their selfs. They may be at the front of the mob but the mob is the dangerous part. None of the above are the people committing the crimes and using the Florida incident as an excuse.
You won't see any of them joining the riots.

The judicial system did their job. A certain group of people didn't like the job they did. Jackson and Sharpton are lowlifes but they are not the only people causing a problem. They are the leaders. When it comes to action they are not there. A mob of two is not a problem. Those who follow them are just as much a problem as the leaders. 

Sharpton and Jackson would not be noticed if there wasn't people who back them. There has to be a reason there are so many people marching and attacking people because of the Florida incident. You can't put the blame only on the leaders, they are nothing without people who follow them.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

watcher said:


> So you think Zimmerman was correct in assigning the guy he saw wearing a hoodie and acting strange (to him) a high threat level?


I wouldn't say high threat level, but higher than an old lady, yes. I don't think he assigned Trayvon a high threat level. I think he considered him suspicious, not dangerous.

ETA: I'll ask again, what does wearing a hoodie have to do with skin color? You make one statement based on race, then when you're challenged on it you change it to clothing. Make up your mind. Are you are racist or a clothesist?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> So you think Zimmerman was correct in assigning the guy he saw wearing a hoodie and acting strange (to him) a high threat level?
> 
> BTW, skin color may not be the main factor but it IS a factor.


 
There's no reason to think the hoodie had anything to do with any "threat level"

It was only mentioned as part of a *clothing description*.
The *media *made an issue out of it.

Skin color was only an issue because it was KNOWN there had been recent breakins involving black males.

Zimmerman may not have even been sure of the race until AFTER he had called to report a "suspicious PERSON"


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I did answer, you just don't like my answer.


Must be blind, could you point it out to me?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The problem with this is that it has NOTHING to do with color... it has to do with attitudes... you know... that stuff that forms in a persons brain... not their skin.


Ahh but their attitude comes partly from the color of their skin. They are told over and over and over that because of the color of their skin they deserve to be treated differently. They are told over and over and over that because of the color of their skin they are kept down. They are told over and over and over that because of the color of their skin they can't make it without "help".


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> I wouldn't say high threat level, but higher than an old lady, yes. I don't think he assigned Trayvon a high threat level. I think he considered him suspicious, not dangerous.


And that's why he wound up with a broken nose and his head bashed opened. If he had considered Martin a danger he would have be more alert and maybe not have been attacked and the entire situation would have came out differently.




ryanthomas said:


> ETA: I'll ask again, what does wearing a hoodie have to do with skin color? You make one statement based on race, then when you're challenged on it you change it to clothing. Make up your mind. Are you are racist or a clothesist?


Its part of the entire picture. An old lady wearing a hoodie is less than a threat than a young male wearing a tee shirt. In some areas a black would be considered a bigger threat than a person of another color. In other areas a white would be considered the threat. Its an overall picture thing. If you don't see the entire picture you stand a larger chance of being a victim.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no reason to think the hoodie had anything to do with any "threat level"


Anything which obscures your view of a person's face effects the threat level. Don't believe me, go into a bank wearing something which blocks the cameras view of your face.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> Anything which obscures your view of a person's face effects the threat level. Don't believe me, go into a bank wearing something which blocks the cameras view of your face.


 
You weren't talking about wearing one into a bank.
You were talking about what *Zimmerman* thought


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sonshine, *the media, the politicians, and the civil rights leaders are not by their selfs*. They may be at the front of the mob but the mob is the dangerous part. None of the above are the people committing the crimes and using the Florida incident as an excuse.
> You won't see any of them joining the riots.
> 
> The judicial system did their job. A certain group of people didn't like the job they did. Jackson and Sharpton are lowlifes but they are not the only people causing a problem. They are the leaders. When it comes to action they are not there. A mob of two is not a problem. Those who follow them are just as much a problem as the leaders.
> ...


No, but they are the ones who stirred up this hornets nest.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

watcher said:


> Ahh but their attitude comes partly from the color of their skin. They are told over and over and over that because of the color of their skin they deserve to be treated differently. They are told over and over and over that because of the color of their skin they are kept down. They are told over and over and over that because of the color of their skin they can't make it without "help".


I refer you back to the gray matter.... why would anyone believe nonsense just because they hear it over and over again? Hmmmm I see your point... Obama was elected by just such folks!


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

watcher said:


> And that's why he wound up with a broken nose and his head bashed opened. If he had considered Martin a danger he would have be more alert and maybe not have been attacked and the entire situation would have came out differently.


I can agree with that. Not necessarily that he should have considered him a danger from the start; but a potential danger, yes. Then he probably would have been more careful to not let him get close enough for a sucker punch.



> Its part of the entire picture. An old lady wearing a hoodie is less than a threat than a young male wearing a tee shirt. In some areas a black would be considered a bigger threat than a person of another color. In other areas a white would be considered the threat. Its an overall picture thing. If you don't see the entire picture you stand a larger chance of being a victim.


And I agree with that, too. I'm not completely color blind, and I'm well aware of the statistics. But you were putting forth a comparison between well dressed white guys and gangster dressed black guys. That comparison includes multiple variables so it isn't really a valid comparison. Switch it up and make the black guy well dressed and the white guy gangster dressed. In that scenario, I'll keep a closer eye on the white guy.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Then he probably would have been more *careful to not let him get close enough* for a sucker punch.


Unless it happened much as Zimmerman claimed, and Martin approached him from the rear.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Unless it happened much as Zimmerman claimed, and Martin approached him from the rear.


Still a bad move to let someone sneak up on you from behind. That's why the neck has the ability to turn.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> Still a bad move to let someone sneak up on you from behind. That's why the neck has the ability to turn.


From looking at pictures, I can imagine there were lots of places Martin could have ducked into a dark corner and caught Zimmerman by surprise.

I think if he HAD percieved a *physical* "threat" he'd have drawn his gun sooner.

It all happened in about a 1 minute timespan


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You weren't talking about wearing one into a bank.
> You were talking about what *Zimmerman* thought


Assuming Zimmerman wasn't completely stupid he clearly didn't consider Martin a high threat/danger. If he had he would have not kept his weapon holstered nor would he have allowed Martin to get out of his line of vision. Think about it if you think there is a danger are you going to turn your back on it? This applies if he confronted Martin or if Martin attacked him. To confront someone you think is a danger is dumb. To allow someone who you think is a danger to get behind you is dumb. He failed, IMO, to assign the correct threat level. 

What we are talking about is assigning threat levels based on the entire picture. Clothes, skin color, even the way a person is walking is part of that picture. Anyone who has been through a self defense class should know this. 

In a neighborhood which had already had break ins seeing someone you didn't recognize walking down the street wearing something which covers there face should set off some kind of alarm. Seeing that person is a young black male because young black males [2?] had already been arrested for some of the break ins and 'acting strange' (what ever Zimmerman thought that was) should raise the volume on that alarm.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

> I think if he HAD percieved a physical "threat" he'd have drawn his gun sooner.


Exactly my point. He probably also would have been watching his back. Obviously it was a mistake not to consider the kid a threat, assuming it went down the way he claims.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> I can agree with that. Not necessarily that he should have considered him a danger from the start; but a potential danger, yes. Then he probably would have been more careful to not let him get close enough for a sucker punch.


Or if he thought Martin was a danger he would not have confronted Martin, the other scenario.




ryanthomas said:


> And I agree with that, too. I'm not completely color blind, and I'm well aware of the statistics. But you were putting forth a comparison between well dressed white guys and gangster dressed black guys. That comparison includes multiple variables so it isn't really a valid comparison. Switch it up and make the black guy well dressed and the white guy gangster dressed. In that scenario, I'll keep a closer eye on the white guy.


So you agree if you saw a guy wearing a 'hoodie' following you, you'd probably ramp up your threat level? From what others here have said that's wrong.

But switch it to the single variable of skin color in YOUR neighborhood (I don't know the color break down there, you do). Would you think a white guy dressed 'ganster' would be out of place and therefore a possible or greater threat? Or maybe a black guy? Or a brown guy? Or a yellow guy?

In my area anyone dressed that would would be out of place but seeing as how its 90-95% white and older around here someone young and "of color" would stand out more. C'est la vie. Well I don't know about. . .a gray haired man dressed ganster would probably get the cops called on him faster because that would surly be WEIRD.

I judge a man by the content of his character not the color of his skin. AFTER he has proven he is not a threat. Until then all I have to go on is stats and gut feeling.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

watcher said:


> So you agree if you saw a guy wearing a 'hoodie' following you, you'd probably ramp up your threat level? From what others here have said that's wrong.


Anyone following me is going to get extra scrutiny, whether white or black; male or female; wearing a suit, hoodie, or nothing at all. The hoodie isn't particularly relevant to me since I have several and wear them fairly often myself, but the general style of dress is one factor in my assessment of strangers.



> But switch it to the single variable of skin color in YOUR neighborhood (I don't know the color break down there, you do). Would you think a white guy dressed 'ganster' would be out of place and therefore a possible or greater threat? Or maybe a black guy? Or a brown guy? Or a yellow guy?


What you're describing here has TWO variables: skin color and manner of dress. Are you intentionally trying to confuse the issue or are you really that confused yourself?

Sixteen black people live in my town, according to the last census. It's a small town, but that's still less than 1%. I know about half of them. If I see a black man walking toward me in town, I don't get concerned. There's pretty much a 50/50 chance I know him by name. If I don't know him, I don't consider him any more of a threat than any other stranger, unless he gives me reason to do so. Now, if said black stranger is dressed in a gangster style, he would look out of place here. A white guy wearing the same would also look out of place, and even more ridiculous. In either case, yes I would watch my back a little more carefully.

None of this is relevant to the Zimmerman case, since the incident happened in a much more diverse neighborhood than where you and I live.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

kimmom2five said:


> Ok why doesn't Trayvon Martin have the same right to the castle defense? A threatening looking guy(with a gun) was following him. He had more need to defend himself than George Zimmerman did.


You defend yourself from a guy with a gun by punching him? Me thinks you be watching too many James Bond or Mission Impossible movies. Do you defend yourself from hornets by poking the nest with a stick?:hammer:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

watcher said:


> Assuming Zimmerman wasn't completely stupid he clearly didn't consider Martin a high threat/danger. If he had he would have not kept his weapon holstered nor would he have allowed Martin to get out of his line of vision. Think about it if you think there is a danger are you going to turn your back on it? This applies if he confronted Martin or if Martin attacked him. To confront someone you think is a danger is dumb. To allow someone who you think is a danger to get behind you is dumb. He failed, IMO, to assign the correct threat level.
> 
> What we are talking about is assigning threat levels based on the entire picture. Clothes, skin color, even the way a person is walking is part of that picture. Anyone who has been through a self defense class should know this.
> 
> In a neighborhood which had already had break ins seeing someone you didn't recognize walking down the street wearing something which covers there face should set off some kind of alarm. Seeing that person is a young black male because young black males [2?] had already been arrested for some of the break ins and 'acting strange' (what ever Zimmerman thought that was) should raise the volume on that alarm.


I have discovered that assigning the correct threat level is rare at the time, but 100% spot on after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20.

If my Neighborhood Watch Captian didn't think that a 6'4" adult, with a hoody, walking behind the neighborhood homes, in the dark, in the rain was worthy of watching, I'd think him useless.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> Or if he thought Martin was a danger he would not have confronted Martin, the other scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unless things have changed a lot in the 6 years I've been living in Georgia, Treyvon would not have been out of place in the area he was at. His style of dress and the color of his skin would be a pretty normal site.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> I have discovered that assigning the correct threat level is rare at the time, but 100% spot on after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> If my Neighborhood Watch Captian didn't think that a 6'4" adult, with a hoody, walking behind the neighborhood homes, in the dark, in the rain was worthy of watching, I'd think him useless.


The sidewalks were behind the homes and if it happened around 7 pm it wouldn't have been dark, unless the rain clouds were really dark.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

kimmom2five said:


> Ok why doesn't Trayvon Martin have the same right to the castle defense? A threatening looking guy(with a gun) was following him. He had more need to defend himself than George Zimmerman did.


Zimmerman's gun was concealed. Martin didn't even know he had is until after he attacked Zimmerman. Then he tried to take it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> The sidewalks were behind the homes and if it happened around 7 pm it wouldn't have been dark, unless the rain clouds were really dark.


You are grasping. Check the facts. 

On the night of February 26, in Sanford Florida, the sun set at 621pm. The moon was just a sliver, but due to cloud cover, not visible. On February 21 the moon was "new moon", meaning not showing. 

Sunrise and Sunset for U.S.A. &#8211; Florida &#8211; Miami &#8211; February 2012

Moon phase for 26 February 2012 Sunday

Rainy night, no moon, hour after sunset. That's not dark to you?

There are sidewalks in front of the houses. Martin wasn't on the front sidewalks. He was in an area so close to the back of the homes one might excuse his location as an attempt to get out of the rain by being under the eaves. I don't have no trespassing signs in my back yard, but if someone is up next to the back of my house, in the dark, in the rain, I'm going to be very concerned.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Unless things have changed a lot in the 6 years I've been living in Georgia, Treyvon would not have been out of place in the area he was at. His style of dress and the color of his skin would be a pretty normal site.


By out of place, do you mean that it is normal to see 17 year old black men wearing baggy black jeans and a dark hoodie with the hood up?

I agree that in Sanford Florida and many other areas of this country that is not strange or cause for alarm.

If he were at the starting line of a 10K foot race, he'd look out of place dressed like that. If he were standing in front of the CEO for an engineering company interviewing for a job, he'd look out of place dressed like that. If he was a groomsman in a big wedding, he'd look out of place dressed like that.

Lots of places where that style of dress is going to look out of place. On foot, at night, in the rain next to the back of my house, in a gated community that has had a rash of crime makes him look out of place.

His color has nothing to do with looking out of place. He could have been wearing black tights and a hooded black fur coat and be just as out of place.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Let's not get too far afield on this. 
Martin wasn't shot for looking like a thug. He wasn't shot for walking on the grass. He wasn't shot for lipping off to Zimmerman.

It seems what happened to Martin is what happens to far too many angry young black men. He had learned from repeated incidents that people backed off from his aggressive behavior. He was big, felt tough, had little respect for authority and got his version of respect by taking what he wanted, doing what he wanted. Until February 26, 2012.
I imagine he expected to beat Zimmerman to a pulp, perhaps kill him. Then go back to his father's girlfriend&#8217;s condo and tweet about it, like he did when he slugged the school bus driver.
But he was young. He hadn't learned that society has ways of controlling uncivilized behavior. He knew that you don't break into occupied homes when you steal gold jewelry, they might have a gun. He knew the school bus driver didn't carry a knife or gun. I doubt he expected Zimmerman was armed.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> All cities have higher incidents of violent crimes and when you add in high unemployment it's a powder keg. I lived in the second largest city in Illinois growing up, Rockford, and I lived on the "bad side of town". I saw good and bad black people in the area. Guess that's where I learned not to judge by the color of their skin, but by the individual actions and character. I went to a school that was predeominately black. I went to a church that was predominately black. I had black friends before I had white friends. I also know the differences in how most people treat blacks versus how they treat whites. Just read some of the comments and see if you can't see the differences. Everyone is falling for the garbage that the media, the politicians and the civil rights leaders want them to, they are making this all about race. It's not. It's about two men, meeting in the early evening hours. An altercation happened and one of the men got his head banged up and the other man was shot and killed. Beyond that, I don't care about what color who was. I would like for the judicial system to be able to do their job without all the violent rhetoric in the black and white communities.


You and I have seen some white people treat Black people differently. You just mentioned it. Did you also witness Black people treat White people differently? That you openly admit white racism, but donât bother to balance the scales by mentioning black racism, is a form of racism.

I have also seen many things that are viewed differently by Black people that perpetuate racism. 
Let's say I walk into a Men's clothing store. I'm looking for a dress shirt. I'm somewhat aware that there are sales people there, but I'm looking for a shirt. Sometimes, the staff will come over and ask if I need help, sometimes, they hang back.
I've talked to several Black people that have done exactly what I did, but they noticed the sales staff watching them. They assume that they are being watched because they are Black. Then they complain that they didn't get waited on because they were Black, or the Sales person came over to keep an eye on them and asked, " Can I help you?" like they couldn't buy a shirt without help, like they thought Blacks are stupid.

If I run a Dry Cleaners and a Black man opens up a Dry Cleaners down the street, I will lose all my Black customers because Blacks tend to support Black businesses. Every time a Black person drives past my business to go to the new business, they are avoiding me based on race. Right. Just another form of racism.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> You are grasping. Check the facts.
> 
> On the night of February 26, in Sanford Florida, the sun set at 621pm. The moon was just a sliver, but due to cloud cover, not visible. On February 21 the moon was "new moon", meaning not showing.
> 
> ...


Guess I was thinking about this time of the year instead of Feb, so it may have been dark. The issue with the sidewalks though is valid. Many of these types of gated communities in Florida have the sidewalks in the back of them. Not knowing where his Dad's GF's residence was compared to where they were at the time of the incident would make a difference. If he was close to the GF's house, then I can understand using the sidewalks in the back. This area is vastly different than other places I've lived.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> By out of place, do you mean that it is normal to see 17 year old black men wearing baggy black jeans and a dark hoodie with the hood up?
> 
> I agree that in Sanford Florida and many other areas of this country that is not strange or cause for alarm.
> 
> ...


Actually it makes more sense to me that he was wearing his hood up since it was raining. 6 PM is not that late at night, so that wouldn't have alarmed me. Also it's not uncommon in Florida to get caught in rain because the weather can change at the drop of a hat. We use to say that if you didn't like the weather to stick around, it'll change within the hour.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> You and I have seen some white people treat Black people differently. You just mentioned it. Did you also witness Black people treat White people differently? That you openly admit white racism, but donât bother to balance the scales by mentioning black racism, is a form of racism.
> 
> I have also seen many things that are viewed differently by Black people that perpetuate racism.
> Let's say I walk into a Men's clothing store. I'm looking for a dress shirt. I'm somewhat aware that there are sales people there, but I'm looking for a shirt. Sometimes, the staff will come over and ask if I need help, sometimes, they hang back.
> ...


I'm not blind, of course I've seen racism on both sides. I mentioned my upbringing. We actually had a chapter of the Black Panthers in our neighborhood. They were dangerous and very racist. There were many blacks that feared them because it wasn't just whites they attacked. They were known to attack anyone who didn't agree with their philosiphy. The reason I point out about racism against white is because that is what so many are trying to make this case about and I don't believe it is. Racism, on both sides is bad and can be dangerous.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Actually it makes more sense to me that he was wearing his hood up since it was raining. 6 PM is not that late at night, so that wouldn't have alarmed me. Also it's not uncommon in Florida to get caught in rain because the weather can change at the drop of a hat. We use to say that if you didn't like the weather to stick around, it'll change within the hour.


I did not say that it was strange that his hood was up. Of course it makes sense that the hood would be up. Even if it wasn't raining, the common style is hood up.
I never said it was late at night. It was dark out, that is night. 

Michigan has changeable weather too.

Can you admit that, "On foot, at night, in the rain next to the back of your house, in a gated community that has had a rash of crime makes him look out of place."? In my community they call them prowlers.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I'm not blind, of course I've seen racism on both sides. I mentioned my upbringing. We actually had a chapter of the Black Panthers in our neighborhood. They were dangerous and very racist. There were many blacks that feared them because it wasn't just whites they attacked. They were known to attack anyone who didn't agree with their philosiphy. The reason I point out about racism against white is because that is what so many are trying to make this case about and I don't believe it is. Racism, on both sides is bad and can be dangerous.


I didn't think you were blind, but when people acknowlege white racism without black racism, they are putting all the blame on one race. Unfair.
OK. You saw whites are racists and blacks don't llike a violent radical extreamist black group that attacks blacks. But I missed the part where you acknowlege that most blacks harbor some resentment towards whites. Are you of the belief that most blacks are open and loving and trusting white people? Really?

I don't want the Zimmerman/Martin case to be about race. But let's not do it in a fantasy world either.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

haypoint said:


> I didn't think you were blind, but when people acknowlege white racism without black racism, they are putting all the blame on one race. Unfair.
> OK. You saw whites are racists and blacks don't llike a violent radical extreamist black group that attacks blacks. But I missed the part where you acknowlege that most blacks harbor some resentment towards whites. Are you of the belief that most blacks are open and loving and trusting white people? Really?
> 
> I don't want the Zimmerman/Martin case to be about race. But let's not do it in a fantasy world either.


You are wasting your time.

Blacks are not racist. Just look at all of the posts defending them.
They have the right to do what ever they want and if any person, especially a white person, disagrees with them, that person is automatically racist.
It doesn't matter if they are robbing you, beating your head against the sidewaly, or stealing your car. The white man owes them. They are allowed to rob.

For several years in Jackson, the TV stations were not allowed to give a full description of a person who was wanted for comitting a crime. They could give a heighth and weight, color of clothes, what they were driving, but they couldn't say what color the person was. That was racist.
Now the common description is "he is a democrat". That tells people exactly what color he is.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You weren't talking about wearing one into a bank.
> You were talking about what *Zimmerman* thought


We don't know what Zimmerman thought. We can guess he didn't think the black guy wearing a hoodie was a high threat or danger based on his actions.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Unless things have changed a lot in the 6 years I've been living in Georgia, Treyvon would not have been out of place in the area he was at. His style of dress and the color of his skin would be a pretty normal site.


The hoodie is only part of the picture.


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