# What signs do I look for before trusting my dog with livestock?



## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

I have a Kangal/Boerboel cross. He is 6 months. I am wondering how to tell if I can trust him with my 2 Dwarf Nigerian goats overnight in their stall.
He is basically good unsupervised in front yard with the chickens. He will occasionally go after one and paw it or bite its tail feathers. It is in a fairly laid back manner, tho. He never tries very hard. He knows "leave it".
He will growl and keep our Great Dane from his food but he will let the chickens eat it while he lays beside them.
He does love the goats and wants to be with them. I've let them interact a little here and there over the last week. We just got the goats last Sunday. The momma goat is not very concerned with him but baby goat (5 mo. old) runs and bounces away and he does chase her and try to bite her.
Last night when I put them all to bed there was the initial interest and then he flopped down in the straw to go to sleep. I was tempted to leave him with them for the night. Instead I got him up and into his kennel which is in the stall with the goats.
I would love to have your thoughts. I need to know when he is ready. I don't want to make a mistake or stress out the goats.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Boerbeols are not LGD's and I would never leave him with the goats unattended. The chasing and biting when the goat runs away can quickly escalate to a dead goat. Your dog is only six months old and the goats have been there a week, even if he was a LGD I wouldn't be trusting him yet.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Yep...agree with Jason. That breed mix is a recipe for disaster. And 6 months old is way too young to trust even a pure LGD with stock.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

So, I am a little concerned about contracting anyone on this site as I have read many posts that quickly turn into full blown arguments (sometimes including name calling). Can I just respectfully disagree on the potential of my dog? I have a Kangal x Boerboel that was bred by Andrew Johnston of Olympic dogs. Here is a link to his essay on the cross: http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559569980/kangal-x-boerboel

My pup was bred to be an all around farm dog. "as good with children as livestock, as inclined to obey as to protect". 

Everyone knows what amazing dogs Kangals are. Very smart, independent and excellent with livestock. They do tend to roam, tho and can be independent to a fault. 

Boerboel literally translated from the Afrikaans means âbig farm dogâ . Andrew says, "All of mine can be trusted left alone with goats, not to mention newborn goat kids." They are very trainable and they don't roam.

In researching this dog I also came across a very helpful thread on this site. It gave me firsthand information on 2 of Andrews dogs. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/guard-animals/432328-kangal-boerboel-mix-puppies-pets.html

I'm sure both of you would agree that the parentage of any dog plays a huge factor in the offspring. I have a pup who comes from proven parents. Proven stock guardians.

What I am hoping is that we (even if you disagree) can assume I have a dog who has the potential to be trusted. I am new to LGD's and was needing some pointers, some indications of what to look for and perhaps some next steps in conditioning my dog to be left alone with stock.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

A "farm dog" is not the same thing as a livestock guardian. Its easy to write a history on the mix your promoting with out really testing it first. It seems beginners like to ask for advise but get mad when its not what they want to hear. Good luck I hope things work out.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Andrew Johnston has a reason to claim these dogs are livestock guardians....he sells them. I hate it when people want to reinvent the wheel. Livestock guardian breeds have been doing their job wonderfully for thousands of years. And then some guy comes along and claims he's going to create a NEW LGD breed by crossing in a guard dog. Boerbeols are not and never have been livestock guardians. They are good all around farm dogs, which as Jason pointed out, is NOT the same thing. These are not animals left 24/7 with livestock. Boerbeols are a breed of dog with a very large prey drive, where LGDs have almost no prey drive. So a cross between the two will result in some pups that take after one parent and some that take after the other, with no predictability or uniformity. Perhaps the folks who gave glowing reports about what a great LGD mix they are had ones that took after the LGD parent and not the Boerbeol parent. At any rate, this is a bad, bad idea.

and breed aside, there is an old saying with lgds. babies must not be with babies. In other words, do not leave that dog unsupervised with young playful stock until he is fully mature, after 2 years of age. And don't leave him unattended with ANY stock until you see no signs EVER of wanting to chase. 

Also I have to agree with Jason. It's been my experience that people who come to the various LGD boards with mix breed dogs are usually very unwilling to hear the more experienced folks tell them that they made a mistake with their breed selection. I know you have money and time and don't want to hear that you have been sold a dog that may never do it's job correctly.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

JasoninMN said:


> A "farm dog" is not the same thing as a livestock guardian. Its easy to write a history on the mix your promoting with out really testing it first. It seems beginners like to ask for advise but get mad when its not what they want to hear. Good luck I hope things work out.


I am sorry if I came across as defensive. I am definitely not mad. Just concerned about starting off on the right foot. I thought it was important for you to know that I was worried about getting "slammed" and ask for your patience and objectivity.
The mix I am promoting has been tested and thought it was important for you to know my dog's history.
I would absolutely love some help and answers to my specific questions. I joined this site to learn and glean from others superior experience and knowledge.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

BarbadosSheep said:


> and breed aside, there is an old saying with lgds. babies must not be with babies. In other words, do not leave that dog unsupervised with young playful stock until he is fully mature, after 2 years of age. And don't leave him unattended with ANY stock until you see no signs EVER of wanting to chase.


Thank you for this info.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I have to say this. I looked at that guy's web site and he makes me absolutly sick to my stomach. Dane??? Dogo??? and he's claiming these will be good LGD? the guy just has some great marketing skills and a very slick web site. But he is creating some highly dangerous mutts. And probably really expensive ones too. he knows NOTHING about dog genetics. He talks like if you cross, you can blend temperments from each. That's like saying if you cross a white dog with a black one you will get a gray one! he is SO full of crap. Man this makes me sick.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

CG, as others have stated, your pup may not ever be a good LGD but I think has the potential to make a good farm dog. There really is a difference. 

Your pup is too young at this point to be left unsupervised with the goats (or chickens). Could you stall him next to he goats or partition their area so the pup can be with them but not have total access? 

It could be 6 months to a year and a half before you know if he's going to be reliable as a LGD. Some take longer to mature than others. 

Good luck with him. I would love to see pictures.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you, Dani.
Yes, he has his kennel in the goat pen and sleeps in there at night. He spends his time during the day hanging out near their outside pen.
I love watching how his brain works. It's very clear when he is happy. As he trots toward something he likes (my husband and I, our two young boys and the goats) he puts his head in the air and sort of puffs his chest out. I also like seeing how he does not tolerate strange animals on our property. Also how he lets the chickens eat his food but won't allow our Great Dane to even look at it.
He has been raised with lots of contact with sheep, goats and chickens so I believe he was well socialized with them.










I'm not sure if the above photo will work...


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

What a cute pup!! Hope he works out for you.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

http://www.backyardchickens.com/g/i/5538942/livestock/sort/display_order/










Edited to remove duplicate post and change picture size.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks for the kind words, Wendle.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I have to say this. I looked at that guy's web site and he makes me absolutly sick to my stomach. Dane??? Dogo??? and he's claiming these will be good LGD? the guy just has some great marketing skills and a very slick web site. But he is creating some highly dangerous mutts. And probably really expensive ones too. he knows NOTHING about dog genetics. He talks like if you cross, you can blend temperments from each. That's like saying if you cross a white dog with a black one you will get a gray one! he is SO full of crap. Man this makes me sick.


You know, I've had a chance to go back and read about his Dogos and Dogo crosses. He is definitely not breeding this cross to be LGDs. Just wanted to clarify.

I personally like his reasons for crossing breeds. Of course you know that already but if you read his defense of the cross http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559582539/defending-the-cross you will know his reasons better. Besides, wasn't it crossing dogs way back in history that got us the breeds we have now? Doesn't it make sense to breed for traits you want? I have a small acreage and appreciate an LGD that won't roam. Which, by the way, my 6 mo. old pup has done flawlessly so far.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The thing is, he is wrong. Hybrid vigor does not exist with f1 crosses. And yes, crossing is how purebreds were created, but it takes many many years to stabilize the genetics and create dogs that breed true. With his crosses, you have no idea what traits will be inherited from each parent. It could inherit all of the good ones from each or it could inherit all of the bad. Just as it will inherit genetic health problems from each. He is a good salesman, nothing more.

Hopefully your pup has inherited the "no roaming" trait but it's a total crap shoot. It could have just as easily inherited the roaming trait from the kangal dog. And just so you know....my Anatolian shepherd dogs (basically same as kangal dogs) don't roam either. That's what fences are made for. They don't even try to escape.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

I dont know about your dog or the cross, everydog is different and has a persona of it's own. 
Only you can make the call on them, but as someone said early on, he is young and the goats are new. SO if the goats mean anything to ya, I wouldn't bet their safety on it right off the bat. I would give it time.
Any dog can bond with stock, just like any dog can hunt hogs, but some are just way more adapted to one job more than the other. 
Maybe when it warms up a little, you can bunk out there with em for a nite and see how it develops.

Maybe send a Message to Goatres
http://www.lgdnevada.com/
Some one that deals with this on the reg, good luck with your pup


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you all for the cautions and the advice. I appreciate it. I am definitely keeping them separated until I am sure.
I like your idea, Rock, I will bunk out there with them. And yes, I love the goats...such neat creatures.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I am anti-hybrid. I cannot stand cock-a poos, Chiweenies and all the rest of the mixed breed mutts that are sold for high dollar claiming they have hybrid vigor, hypoallergenic and etc etc. There are enough mixed breeds in the shelter waiting for homes, being put down and such that we need to create more? The man who created Labradoodles has stated he is sorry he did so due to the storm of hybrids now being cranked out. 

Boerboels are not an LGD, I read that man's website and he really should be ashamed of himself. He is taking dogs with opposing qualities mixing them and claiming they are awesome. Yeah when they slaughter an entire herd of sheep I am sure he will state it was the owner's fault. Boerboels are a guard dog, they are far different from true LGD www.lgd.org 
Your dog can be an all around farm dog but he should never be left alone with the animals. He is also telling you so in his behavior. Goats during warm/hot days die of heat stroke after being chase for 10-15 mins, that is all it takes. He never has to put a tooth on to them to hurt or kill them. 

I am not bashing you, you maybe be new to LGD and his website sounds convincing. But he is breeding future problems of which he will not take responsibilty for if something happens. 

You being in the barn at night is not going to teach him how to behave when he is alone with them. 
He can be an all around farm dog and raised as such, he is not an LGD and should not be granted the same amount of responsibility or trust as a true LGD. Even people with true LGD can and do have problems with them, you can have the same or worse problems due to his being a mixed breed. 

I am not trying to bash you I am just trying to warn you, because his clashing breeds can either turn out well or can cause one heck of a psycho dog.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

For your original question. Every dog is different and it depends very much on how the dog was raised from birth and on more than the age of the dog. Our 2 Sarplaninacs were put on pasture with our sheep as soon as they were big enough not to squeeze through the woven wire. It was summer time and I was home and I spent alot of time out there with them since I was building fence. They went into their own pen at night in the shed where the sheep sleep, and were let out each morning. By the time the 2 dogs were 4-5mo they were out and about all the time "guarding" the sheep and the other live stock. we have had no issues (10mos currently). A couple years ago we had a GP that even at 2yo couldnt be trusted with the sheep unsupervised. Its really up to you to decide when your dog is ready to goto work, you have to be very vigilant in your decision, and you have to really understand what his body language is telling you, and most of all you have to be HONEST with your self rather than try to justify what the dog is doing. A rougue LGD is a very expensive dog.

As far as crosses and hybrids go.... I will agree that it is a crapshoot on what you will get. I havnt looked at the guys website yet, but i can assure you that unless he has culled heavily and has watched several generations of this cross and heavily line bred the good quailities of his stock, He has NO idea what he is getting from any litter he puts on the ground. 
Your arguement of people crossing pure breds to get what they wanted is a little naive, and I dont mean that as an insult. I know of 1 kennel, breeding 1 breed of pointing dog that probly culled pups at a rate of several hundred a year over 20yrs just to get the traits that they wanted from within the same breed of dog. Designer breeds, and hybrids are not something you just decide to do, it takes several generations of a very strict breeding program to develope anything.

I truely do wish you luck and hope things work out for you.

Jim


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you, Jim.
I am really looking for this kind of info. Thank you so much for getting back to my original question. Your pointers, tips and especially examples are what help me learn what to look for.
Also, some of you may assume that because I am not hearing what I want to hear I'm not listening. I just want you to know that I respect your opinions. All I am begging for is for everyone's help on what to look for so I know if/when he is ready. Please give me your advice.
On another note, but something directly related, please can we use this thread for info only? If people are reluctant to give personal advice because they are worried others are going to use the info to rip them apart then we aren't going to learn from each other. Trust me, you will not be educating anyone by being nasty. If you must disagree please use respect and kindness. Pretend you are sitting face to face with someone.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

If I was sitting down face to face with you, I would tell you the exact same thing I said in my thread. You need to be prepared to face this kind of information anytime you ask anyone who is serious about livestock guardian dogs and any one who is an ethical dog breeder. What this guy is doing is unconscionable. He is creating mutts for profit and passing them off as something they are not. That infuriates me beyond belief. I am sorry if my passing along info along these lines offends you. I really do hope your pup works out but please be prepared that it very well may not work out as you expect.

the only way you will know he is ready is to spend a lot of time sitting a distance from the pasture but within eye-shot and watching. watching a LOT. Supervise like crazy for a long time and be prepared for setbacks during puberty. Once the dog is two, he should be over the worst of it. The length of time and the amount of work involved are really the main reasons I would not even waste my time on a questionable mix. If the dog does not work out, you will have to get a new dog and start all over. There is nothing easy about raising a pup up to be a good LGD and starting out with one that may never work out just seems like such a horrible waste of effort and time.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

BarbadosSheep said:


> If I was sitting down face to face with you, I would tell you the exact same thing I said in my thread. You need to be prepared to face this kind of information anytime you ask anyone who is serious about livestock guardian dogs and any one who is an ethical dog breeder. What this guy is doing is unconscionable. He is creating mutts for profit and passing them off as something they are not. That infuriates me beyond belief. I am sorry if my passing along info along these lines offends you. I really do hope your pup works out but please be prepared that it very well may not work out as you expect.


Ok. You need to know that what I am talking about is your tone and choice of words. It is not the "kind of information" or type of info that creates an inhospitable atmosphere.

As far as what you would say to me if we were face to face I have no reason not to believe you. In general, however, I am speaking about the interesting phenomenon that takes place when people are not face to face. Take driving for instance. People act completely differently behind the wheel of several thousand pounds of vehicle than they do when pushing a grocery cart. I see far less people cutting each other off, tailgating or flipping each other the bird in Safeway then I do on the freeway in downtown San Diego.

As far as the slick salesman that Andrew Johnston is, I do not have firsthand knowledge that would prove this or not. I found this puppy on craigslist and bought him from a couple who had two of his puppies and couldn't decide between them. So they bought both. They finally decided to sell the male when they found out they had to move from their farm to a different one that already had enough LGDs. I did my research on the breeds and am comfortable with them. I am thrilled with my puppy and have since spoken to Mr. Johnston a couple times now on the phone. He is humble and soft spoken. I happen to like what he thinks about many issues. Feeding, training and breeding. You are welcome to disagree. We are all clear on why you do.

I believe you that you hope this dog works out for me. You are right, it is my personal decision as to whether he is worth my time or not. Your info and direction on what to watch for is what I need.

I appreciate your specific help very much. I am a stay at home mom who loves to garden and work with my hands. I suspect that I will be outside a great deal and will supervise my little heart out!


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

There is no tone on the internet, word choice may bother you but if you ask advice not all of it will be positive or what you want to hear. 

People are always advertising things like Great Pyr mixed with Aussie, great guardian dog! Yeah these are people who have not bothered to alter any of the dogs on their property and have mutt puppies. How is a high energy herding dog mixed with a low prey dog going to be a good LGD? The answer is it is not. 

A member on here got a Pyr mixed with Great Dane, that is not a true LGD and he was chewing on the lamb or goat kid's leg shows that mix is not going to work out. 

Your puppy chasing and biting at the goat kid is a warning to you about his behavior as well as pulling out chicken feathers. I am not a expert on LGD and have only had them for 5 yrs now, so not horribly long but my boys tolerate goat kids jumping on them, grazing on their fur, the kids run and bounce and play all around them and my dogs do not react at all, they lay there and take it. This is the way they have been since puppies. They also have not been allowed to lick or put their mouths on goats- ever. I tolerate no chasing what so ever, aside from heat stroke risks it just it not allowed. They have never shown an inclination to chase anyway. That is part of their breed traits and it is just not so for the Boerboels. 
Mine are huge white speed bumps who only react to coyotes howling, my guineas screaming a warning and such. 

He is yours and you are free to do what you want with him, we are warning you based on experience and cross breeding issues. I would have him be an all around farm dog, and not an LGD. It protects your animals from predators but it also protects them from him. If you use him as an LGD and he turns out to be a problem dog I hope you contact the breeder and let him know that mix is not as awesome as he portrays. I really hope nothing happens and keep in mind that he will learn from you being out there to correct him but when he is unattended he will know it and his behavior may differ. 


Teddy brought inside to calm down after a run in with the neighbor's ill behaved dog, he is playing jungle gym for a bottle kid.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Thai, I'm going to disagree with you that chasing goats or sheep and pulling feathers off chickens is a sign of a pup that will not make a lgd. 

That is the reason so many say you have to supervise until they are up to 2 years old. Until then, they are puppies and will act like puppies.

CG, that is a handsome pup!


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## 246ranch (Jun 30, 2011)

Check your PM's. :lonergr:


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

The cautions are fine but people need to learn to communicate effectively if they want other's to be open to hearing them. I heard once that if a teacher's students aren't learning it's the teacher's fault.
Dani, thank you. I think he's pretty good looking, too. I also see his behavior is obviously puppy behavior. He bites me too. I think they call it mouthing. Come to think of it, when my two boys were babies they put everything in their mouths. I wonder if it's the same sort of thing?
So, is it naive of me to keep hoping to get more advice on what to look for so I know when my boy is ready? Age can't be the only factor. 
I really love to read about others' experiences. What they would do in certain circumstances, etc.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

One good resource for learning about LGD training is to read all the threads in this forum, there are more than several that document really good training techniques and experiences from puppyhood thru mature doghood.

You'll find lots of dissension too, just like any internet forum, but you can weed thru those until you find helpful info that you can bookmark or cut and paste into your own documentation. Better use of energy to spend hours reading than typing debate arguments.

Good luck training your pup!


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Boy, are you right.
I was just hoping if I was persistent my thread would end up with lots of examples and specific training tips. That way it could help others who are looking for the same type of info.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

If a person puts a post asking for help they should take into consideration each answer.
You can pick and choose which advice you want to take.
By choosing advice that agrees with what you want to hear may only make a problem that much bigger.
If you have already decided on a course of action, why ask the question?


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

This is a beautiful pictures but quite confusing, for me at least?
If the dog has to be brought inside to calm down after dealing with a dog? Who is protecting the stock, What if it was ill mannered coyotes







?
[/QUOTE]
Mine are huge white speed bumps who only react to coyotes howling, my guineas screaming a warning and such. 



Teddy brought inside to calm down after a run in with the neighbor's ill behaved dog, he is playing jungle gym for a bottle kid.[/QUOTE]


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Alright, I have to admit. Now I am annoyed. This is my thread. If you aren't going to tell me what to look for from your own experience to know if your dog is ready for less supervision or no supervision then please do not post here. 
I understand the reservations you all have about my dog's mixed parentage. Please don't assume that I am not taking your thoughts about his breeding into consideration. But being hung up on that and not giving me answers to my original question is not helping.
I also fear that our arguing back and forth has already chased away people from posting publicly what their experiences are. Well, actually, I know this for a fact since I have gotten the most advice so far from private messages. You want to know why? They are sick and tired of the know it all bullies on here. My point is there are a million ways to say things. Learn how to communicate kindly if you actually want to be heard.

It is interesting to me that there is a sticky in this thread that starts out like this: 
"this forum is not just for the know it alls
This forum is not just for those that consider themselves experts. Especially when someone asks a question and gets really snarky "help" from those that seem to think they know it all.
For those asking a question, I'm sorry you have to get a decent answer by Private Message due to the ones jumping in and not answering the question, just tearing into the questioner.

Please stop this type of posting. It does not live up to the attempt of HT of "Neighborly Help and FRIENDLY advice", and the main rule of BE NICE.

If you cannot "be nice" in your answer, it would do well to not answer with snark.

Angie"
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/guard-animals/434718-forum-not-just-know-alls.html


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

actually, several people (including me) did answer your question. In a nut shell, there is no rule for this. each dog is different. You have to supervise, watch the dog and figure this out for yourself. Watch how the dog behaves, how calm and relaxed he is when they run, or does he get excited when they run. etc. you have to learn to read your own dog. and even when you think he's ready, still be on guard for misbehavior because it will happen.

I doubt you are going to find very many true LGD breed owners that will agree with your choice of dog. It's not that we are claiming to be experts, it's just that we have walked this path before and seen so many cases of crosses that did not work out, and owners with attitudes that do not want to admit you made a mistake in your breed selection. when you post on an open forum, you are going to have to accept answers you don't like. it's just how things work.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Only let your dog around the animals supervised. Do whatever chores need to be done with the pup so he can learn the routine. There was someone that posted that his dog learned where each animal was fed and then would keep each animal in it's spot! How cool is that! What I'm trying to say here is that there is no real training other than verbal reprimand when they do something they shouldn't. They learn by watching and doing. 

When your dog isn't having to be stopped for chasing for a couple weeks at least, then you can try letting the dog have unsupervised time but keep an eye on things so you can stop it right away. 

You don't physically punish or correct your dog.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

BarbadosSheep said:


> each dog is different. You have to supervise, watch the dog and figure this out for yourself. Watch how the dog behaves, how calm and relaxed he is when they run, or does he get excited when they run. etc. you have to learn to read your own dog. and even when you think he's ready, still be on guard for misbehavior because it will happen.


Thank you.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you, Dani


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

OK, now if any one has any training tips for Chickengarden, awesome. This could be a useful thread for a lot of folks, so let's keep it nice, ok?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Rock said:


> This is a beautiful pictures but quite confusing, for me at least?
> If the dog has to be brought inside to calm down after dealing with a dog? Who is protecting the stock, What if it was ill mannered coyotes
> 
> 
> ...


I have two LGD and one is always out, Teddy has nearly strangled himself trying to get over the fence trying to correct the neighbor's dog for coming onto our property and dominately peeing and going after us. Oh he has also tried biting through the fence causing his mouth to bleed to get at the aggressive jerk. The older of the two LGD does not view this dog as a threat unless he is coming at us or the goats. Teddy goes insane if he is even on the edge of the property. 
I bring him in to calm him down to keep things cool between me and the neighbor, Teddy has already grabbed that dog by the face and throat once through the fence trying to pull him through. 
If it was a coyote then I really could careless if he snapped it in half trying to drag it through the fence. But coyotes don't usually stick their faces close to my fence  


Chicken I read your other thread and sometimes we all can get defensive, no big. I did give you advice and tried to be careful how I phrased it  
I can also tell you that when my boys were puppies they killed a few adolescent chickens. They did not eat them, what I did was I left the dead chicken near me and everytime they went near it or showed interest in it I yelled No and a few times I had a dead chicken "peck" their noses. I don't recommend trying that old time gross thing of tying a dead chicken to his collar, smells awful and IMO teaches them nothing. A guy I know did that and another gross thing to teach his dog to leave the chickens alone and the minute he left the dog in the chicken yard he killed every single one in less then 10 mins. Didn't eat them he was just angry about his three days of gross smelling chicken punishment and took them all out. He is now is a poultry free home. 

Remember when you do your chores correct him for any type of hunting/predator behavior even if it is just playing. Make sure he has things to chew on and play with, he is still a puppy/dog. His behavior may not be the same when you are not there so if possible watch him from the windows if you leave him unattended with any livestock/poultry.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Here's the thing you need to remember, with true livestock guardian dogs it is instinct that tells them what to do. We guide them to listen to their instinct correctly by correcting them if they make a mistake. It isn't really training the dog to be a LGD it's encouraging him to use his head the way they were bred for thousands of years. 

You have a dog with two completely opposite instincts so he doesn't know which one is right. It's like your mom and dad each telling you the exact opposite, how do you know who to listen to? He is already showing some things he shouldn't be as a LGD by wanting to chase the frisky young goats. Can you train it out of him? Maybe, maybe not. 

Because of this no one can answer your question completely. How do I know when he's ready? It's not possible to answer this completely because you are working with two completely opposite dogs. My first thought is when he shows ZERO interest in chasing anything but a predator. And I mean zero interest. Nothing the goats or chickens do should even have him lifting an eye brown. 
I would continue to crate him near the goats and chickens if you want him to bond with them. I would be with him 24/7 if he's loose with the other animals. 

Here's an example of LGD dedication to their jobs. My Anatolian had 1 goat to take care of when I was living with my folks. He knew his job instinctually and I didn't have to teach him anything. When I moved to my new house my goat was very upset and cried constantly. On Easter Sunday I woke to find the dog and the goat missing. I figured they were just in the woods and didn't bother to look. I went to my folks house several hours later for dinner. All of a sudden here comes my dog and my goat! My dog brought this goat on an 8 mile trip across a busy road and a huge stream to bring him back where he thought the goat belonged. In the dogs mind the goat lived at the old house and didn't belong where I put him. The goat was clearly unhappy about our move. So the dog solved the problem on his own. That's why people want LGD because they are independant thinkers. They do what is best for their livestock. 

I too would keep him as an great farm dog that will happily protect your children and property but I would not use him as a LGD. This is purely my opinion. 

I do have F1 hybrids and if you want to know my first hand experience with them let me know. 
Good luck with your pup, in all honesty I hope all of us are wrong and I hope he ends up being the perfect dog.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Back in January, I purchased a purebred Anatolian pup. She was 9 weeks old. 

After a few weeks, we started lambing. She picked one lamb to chase and chew on....She also started showing interest in the poultry; unhealthy interest. 

I chained her in the sheep barn, since she's a little escape artist who can't be contained in a pen. I visited her each day, bringing the ewes and lambs in around her to be fed. I corrected her when she wanted to go after lambs. The last week, I would let her loose while I was feeding, keeping an eye on her. If I saw her chasing a lamb, an empty bucket might fly out and find her. 

She is now loose full time. She seems to have learned about sheep. I DO have one old ewe (with triplets) who will go out of her way to ram the pup. If the other ewe had done that, I'm pretty sure the problem would not have developed. 

Sunni is now on her way to becoming an excellent LGD. 

Your dog must show no chasing or playing with poultry or goats before you can trust him full-time. It takes time and effort to make a good LGD. But, they are well worth the trouble. 

I have had Anatolians that showed too much prey drive. In Turkey, they kill these dogs. Here in America, we are soft. That's why the rescues are full of dogs that failed as LGDs. 

You might try building a pen near your poultry for your dog for the next few months. That will probably help.


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## blaundee (Nov 3, 2012)

DaniR1968 said:


> Thai, I'm going to disagree with you that chasing goats or sheep and pulling feathers off chickens is a sign of a pup that will not make a lgd.
> 
> That is the reason so many say you have to supervise until they are up to 2 years old. Until then, they are puppies and will act like puppies.
> 
> CG, that is a handsome pup!


 
I totally agree with the above statement. 

My Labrador, who comes from parents that hunt, was taught from the time we got him not to hurt the chickens, NEVER to put his mouth on them, etc. This wasn't easy for him for the first few months because he is a born and bred bird dog, but he was never alone with them and he learned the proper way to act. He was really good with the chickens when I got some ducks- the first time he saw them, he wanted to get them immediately!!! But we expected that, so we were right there to teach him to leave the ducks alone (and BTW, this was ALL with voice commands, no shock collar or anything). For the first week, he had to be reminded to not go after the ducks. Once he was a year and 1/2 old, he was 100% trustworthy with ALL of the poultry! He can literally be left in the poultry pen with them, and not bother them at all. The only thing he EVER does to the birds is run through them when they are bunched up while out roaming if he is on the other side of them and I call him to me. There is a paricular hen who for some reason tries to fight with him, and he'll bark and play with her while she mildly flaps and pecks at him- they have done this for the past 2 years without any mishaps. My chickens are very important to me, and I was very concerned about them when Hubby decided to get a Lab, but this dog has been the very best around poultry of ALL dogs I've ever known, he is completely trustworthy with even smal chicks. He will be 3 years old in August.

He is also trained not to walk on the carpet- only on the linoleum, or shake while in the house (so hair doesnt fall on the floor lol), he is crate trained and he only stays in his "area" which is half of the kitchen, and doesnt eat the catfood even though he LOVES catfood  

He would be a wonderful stock protector, but we got him and keep him as a house pet  He loves the sheep & goats, loves cats, the only thing he doesnt like is men driving up to the house- and I of course love that feature because it makes me feel safer. The only bad thing he does is eat trash if I leave the bag on the porch instead of putting it in the barrel! That, and step on my bare feet with his cold, snowy, wet ones after I let him back in every morning lol If he doesnt step on my warm, dry feet, he sticks his cold nose on my leg! lol Brat


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## blaundee (Nov 3, 2012)

On the site someone posted earlier, http://www.lgd.org/trainfaqs.html, many of those dogs mentioned were aggressive in differing levels to stock and humans, and I'm assuming they are all pure LGD... so apparently, no matter the breed, you must put in at least a year's worth of training before the dog can be trusted.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

What to look for. That is a very constructive question -I like it. I have a 19 month old Akbash female that I still watch very closely. I had to really think back to what behaviors I watched for during the daytime that gave me clues she was ready for some alone time.

I watched for signs that she was not particularly overtly interested in any of my pygmy goats. Until she was around a year old, anytime one walked near her it would draw her focus and she would start to follow. If it ran, she would break into a trot which drew an immediate reprimand from me. I watched carefully for her to decide *on her own* without me reminding her that she should always walk. After many months, I finally saw that she was consistently moving slowly among them and often would not bother to follow them. I frequently observed from an upstairs window so I was not even present. For safety sake, I did keep an electronic collar on her as a fail-safe when I was a great distance away. I didn't want her to get away with misbehavior and get rewarded by a fun chase. In the several months I collared her during the day, I only ever had to actually use it to correct a chase once when she was around 7 or 8 months old.

I also watched for signs of active submission to the goats or sheep. When she was quite young - maybe 4 months - she wanted to be overly affectionate, licking them and leaning into them. I made sure she spent some time with an adult doe that was very good at puppy discipline. The doe would butt and knock her down, but wasn't so mean that she would try to finish her off... like some of my less nice goats would have done. I watched for signs that the pup was clearly submitting to the doe, neither trying to roughhouse back or defend herself. You want to see ears laid back, low head and body posture- almost groveling behavior. If she got at all too pushy with some of the less assertive goats, I would help the goat by walking into the dog's space and pushing her back. I taught the dog to yield to pushy body language.

During these early months, I also taught her some basic obedience - walk on leash and sit - so vet visits would be less traumatic. While doing leash work, I also took the yielding a bit further and taught her to "get back" on command. I like for my dogs to be "handy".

She is becoming more trustworthy around 3 month old baby pygmies now. Last spring, the babies had to be about 4 to 5 months before they could be with the dog. So, she's gradually getting there. But the babies are definitely penned at night still. I am anxious to see how she does with the upcoming April kiddings.

As others have already said, it's not age dependent. Each dog matures at a different rate. We were also lucky to have our older retiring LGDs do the initial training, so that gave us a big advantage too.

Anita
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats, Idaho


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm so excited for all this feedback! I LOVE details and personal experience. Thank you all so much.
He has been doing fairly well with my two little nigies. I had been keeping the doeling separated from her momma at night so he had to give up his "crate" to her at night. He slept with momma goat. His crate is in the stall with them. I have a video monitor so I kept an eye on them. He didn't bother momma at all. When he'd sniff too much at the crate momma would butt him down. I figured this was ok. (So, glad to read all this advice now about the goats doing their own training of him.)
He's also had more outside contact with baby goat and momma. 5 mo. old baby goat runs incredibly fast and frisky and he has never given any type of whole hearted chase to her. I've corrected him any time he even follows at a rate faster than a walk or if he opens his mouth near her.
He spends his days outside right next to the chicken/goat yard. We don't have our property completely fenced yet but he doesn't leave.
He did catch one of my chickens and was chewing on her when my husband caught him and shouted and ran out and gave him a good shake down. He didn't hurt her and I think those mistakes are probably good for some unmistakably clear direction from us.
Yesterday we came home with two new full sized goats. We were walking the new goats over to our other two who were penned and then he started growling and barking. We began telling him to stop. He didn't completely. We ended up picking him up and carrying him over to them. Petting them and him and telling him they were our new friends. He wasn't convinced and ended up just leaving and going to his spot in the barn. We put everyone away in the stall with him and he growled when one goat came over and stared at him. 
Later we heard him barking and went to look on the monitor. The two big goats were head butting each other and he was barking at them.
Any thoughts? Is this normal stuff? I didn't realize it but when I was writing this out I realized he didn't bark or growl at the new goats until we brought them over to meet our original two. Do you think he was trying to protect them?
ALL of you guys are such a wealth of info and help to me I just want to say thank you again for all of the feedback (including from the beginning  of course).


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Also, how do you introduce new stock to your dogs? Do they just accept them right away?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

One thing I noted that makes me wonder. You had the baby in his crate; be very very careful with that. HIS crate is HIS crate, HIS spot to sleep, HIS escape zone. It seems he handled it very well, but just be aware that he might not take kindly to a critter in HIS spot. I understand completely that you had to do what you had to do, so no criticism meant. I'd be sure no one wanders into his "den" on a daily basis, tho, to ensure things keep flowing smoothly in the right direction as they seem to be doing.  I am the first to admit I don't have LGDs, but this is a common doggie psyche thing.

It sounds like he was sounding a warning to the ones butting each other, and it is a great sign that he didn't go after them; he alerted you instead.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes, you are right about keeping his crate for just him. I agree.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

How is he doing? Update!


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

He's doing really well. Thank you for asking.
Sometimes Saraphine, our Dwarf Nigerian doeling, escapes and sometimes I let her out so she can run around. She zips and bucks and pretends to head butt Roman and all he does these days is put a paw on her. He does no trotting after her anymore.
My husband heard him yelping one evening when I was doing the milking and caught our full sized goat ramming him as he lay in the stall with all the goats. I had left him because he's been so calm. I thought he and Avery were getting along ok because there hadn't been any confrontation between them in a while. (He had been growling at her when she'd come and stare at him and almost ram his crate.)
We checked him over and he seemed to be ok and we put him in his crate. That was probably a week ago. There hasn't been any noted growling since but Avery definitely will ram him if she gets the chance.
Yesterday, though, one of our chickens layed an egg in his crate and he was licking it and had cracked it a bit when my son caught him with it in the front yard. My hubby sprayed it with some pet deterrent stuff but then he stepped on it and was licking the yolk. Hubby sprayed it again and later caught the chickens eating it! AAaarg. :smack
Since then he's been sticking his head in the nesting boxes and licking the eggs. I've been able to tell him to leave it and I'm keeping my eye on him today. Not sure if I should sacrifice another egg and spray it with pet off or just keep correcting him?
Any other feedback is welcome, too. I hope no one feels like they have to tiptoe now with me


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Please bear with me as this post provides some closure for me. I wanted to let you all know how Roman turned out. Unfortunately this will be the last update on him as we lost him yesterday. He was hit by a truck. We did get our fence up but he was in our front yard. He darted across the road right in front of our house to run some mountain sheep off. He never tolerated any other animals on our property.
He was great with people. He never challenged anyone that visited us. They were all friends or deliverymen. I wondered if he would have acted differently if they were uninvited/had bad intentions.
We did not loose one chicken or duck or goat to predators while he was here. We used to have problems with the neighbors dogs coming over until we got him.
He didn't bark all night. When he did bark it was at something specific.
His egg eating didn't progress. I found that as long as wasn't late feeding him he didn't go looking for eggs. We probably only lost 4 eggs total to him.
Here's a recent picture of him at 10 1/2 months old. He had just killed a snake in our front yard. Our boys and our ducks hang out in the front yard. He killed the snake over in the corner of the yard before it really even entered the property and then brought it over near the front door. He layed down next to it between the ducks and our boys and our house.








I also wanted you all to know that we were so pleased with this dog that we will be driving to his breeder's farm this weekend to buy another.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Sorry you lost your pup


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I just found this thread. I feel badly your experience with posters was negative. Some of us just don't put our thoughts into words that sit well with others. The intent is to help; but the presentation leaves something to be desired.

I am sorry you lost your pup. He was a beautiful looking dog.

As for "mixes" with a prey drive, that is a difficult dog to train; however, it is not impossible.

Let me tell you a little story of two (2) of my dogs, one a mix and the other fullblood German Shepherd. Both had prey drives. The mix was my favorite and would even herd a live rabbit to where her pup could catch and eat it. She would also charge ferociously at any predator getting near my goats. However, she was raised on this place from birth and was often in the house. We customarily brought new born goats into the house; so she had no recourse but to get acquainted with them, learning from the start not to hurt them. 

The fullblood dog learned from this mix in that she was only 8 weeks old when we brought her home. She too had to bond closely with new-born goats and, though her prey drive was strong, I attached her leash to my mix when she was outside and I wasn't. This meant she could NOT chase any of our animals because the mix would not permit it. The full blood actually learned to believe she was suppose to break up all fights, even the breeding rituals of our goats/fowl. She, too, turned out to be a great guard dog for my goats and fowl.

My place is only 6 acres and that makes a big difference. I knew to take the leash off the full blood and let her (as well as the mix earlier) roam freely with the herd by watching & training constantly for the first few years of their lives. So it can be done. It is just easier to work with an LGD than it is a mix, especially when one part of that mix has a strong prey drive.

Good luck with your new pup.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

So sorry you lost your puppy. Can you boundary train your next dog? My border collie knows he is not to go in the road, but he's a different type than yours.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I'm so sorry. My heart is breaking for you. It sounds like you raised him right and he turned out to be such a good boy. He was a very handsome dog. I hope your next one is just as good. He will have big "paw prints" to fill.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks, you guys.
He really was easy to train. I never really saw any strong prey drive in him. He didn't kill anything until the snake. He had a fuzzy baby mouse once and I watched him with it for a while. He licked it and then let it go and then caught it again and licked it. Maybe he would have eventually eaten it. After a few minutes I took it from him and tossed it to my chickens who swallowed it whole.
I'm sure I could learn more about boundary training. He didn't leave the property once in the beginning. I would cross the road to get the mail and after one correction didn't try to go with me. He never tried to follow us when we drove away.
In his last month (at about 10 months old) he would go into my neighbors' field a little and across the road. Every single time we'd tell him "home". He got to understand it well. I'd see him starting to leave and tell him home and he'd pause (considering it, I guess  and I'd tell him again more firmly and he'd come back.
However, there was no stopping him when he had a reason to leave. A few weeks ago there was a dog across the road in my neighbors' other field. My boys were across the road too as they wanted to climb the rocks on the mountainside. I was with Roman watching everything so I could stop him as I wanted to teach him to stay in our yard even when there was something across the road he wanted to chase off. I wasn't fast enough. When he saw the other dog he did he didn't hesitate and bark or anything he was just after it. He ran right up and headed it off from approaching my kids. I realize my mistake now. I should have had my kids come home when I saw that other dog. If everything Roman wanted to protect was in our yard maybe he would have stayed with us.
I've looked into invisible fencing but I don't know if it will hold that kind of dog. The other solution is that we will just keep the dog behind the fence that surrounds the rest of our property in the back. I've seen dogs that were 100% boundary trained though and intend on learning more about it.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

In your other post you said he went after mountain sheep. In your last post you said he went after a dog.


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## Chickengarden (Feb 4, 2013)

dog a few weeks ago
mountain sheep on Sunday


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Sorry bout your pup, 
Good luck with the new one


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## Lilyrush (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm so sorry you lost your dog, that's heartbreaking.

I did want to say in reference to Andrew Johnston...I was at his farm just two days ago to see these dogs in action before placing a deposit. Andrew was very nice and pleasant. The dogs all looked great and when I was asking him questions about crossing and his experience he made the point that breeding two different breeds together isn't like putting oil in water. I thought it was interesting. His passion really seems to be finding the best representations of a breed and then crossing. He travels all over the world to find a lot of these dogs. If anything I would say that his marketing is everything but fancy. He's brutally honest and didn't oversell anything. Just wanted to put that out there.


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