# Why is the Free market broken ?



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I can think of two jobs ,nursing and truck driving That have had chronic shortages for years .

Why ?

I haven’t the wages in those fields risen enough to attract sufficient employees?

Yes I know the government has allowed employers to import workers from overseas and that has probably depressed wages but it still hasn’t been sufficient to meet the needs apparently. 

Whats going on?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

More government equals less freedom. Too much government means too little freedom.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

I don't know average $75 grand sounds pretty good. Sounds like free market working to me. And I have never seen a nurse who has been imprted. Trucker is a bit low. But seems like a lot of freedom to me
http://neuvoo.ca/salary/?job=Registered Nurse

The *average Registered Nurse salary* in *Canada* is $75,680 per year or $38.81 per hour. Entry level positions start at $41,396 per year while most experienced workers make up to $128,655 per year.

The average *Truck Driver* salary in Canada is *$44,345* per year or *$22.74* per hour. Entry level positions start at *$30,225* per year while most experienced workers make up to *$75,000* per year.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nursing home nurses and care givers in the Austin area are primarily Somalians and Nigerians. The average Anglo American worker doesn’t want those jobs.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nursing home nurses and care givers in the Austin area are primarily Somalians and Nigerians. The average Anglo American worker doesn’t want those jobs.


At the pay level the Somalians and Nigerians are willing to take.

It is all Anglo here, but still does not pay much.


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## kotori (Nov 15, 2014)

I have nurses in the family, and they say those numbers on income are a joke. Most places that hire nurses want one to do the job of three while being paid for half. Willing to work all hours, pull shifts with no warning, extended shifts with again no warning. at the end of the day they're lucky to earn enough to pay off their student loans. Of course, this is only a small group size, so I can't claim all places are like that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

keenataz said:


> I don't know average $75 grand sounds pretty good. Sounds like free market working to me. And I have never seen a nurse who has been imprted. Trucker is a bit low. But seems like a lot of freedom to me
> http://neuvoo.ca/salary/?job=Registered Nurse
> 
> The *average Registered Nurse salary* in *Canada* is $75,680 per year or $38.81 per hour. Entry level positions start at $41,396 per year while most experienced workers make up to $128,655 per year.
> ...


 If those numbers are pretty good why is there a shortage? 
Personally I think those numbers are at absolute junk waste of time. Look at the truck driver wage where they divided by 2000 hours to get the wage per hour.
How many drivers work a 40 hour week


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You're home every week aren't you? That is what the ads say...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I can think of two jobs ,nursing and truck driving That have had chronic shortages for years .
> 
> Why ?
> 
> ...


If you are talking in the US,
Reagan deregulation of interstate commerce and union busting killed trucking.
Over 80% of interstate trucks were Owner/Operator in the 80s, the owner operated the truck.
Interstate rates were guaranteed, regulated by the governmemt, mostly for one reason, taxes.

States were unfairly gouging out of state trucks, if you are old enough, you will remember 'Bingo Cards' with permit stamps for the states you had to purchase if you were from out of state.
States found it easy to pass taxation laws on people outside their state since people from other states didn't vote in their elections, and it got out of hand.
This was "Taxation Without Representation", the federal governmemt stepped in to moderate a reasonable charge for trucks passing though.

The federal government also had to pay for the federal interstate highway system, and they wanted trucks to pay a least a fair share for the wear & tear big trucks put on that system, and to register with the DOT required you also had the proper tax registration,

To make sure freight rates allowed for the paying of FIXED fees and taxes, the federal government had minimums rates based on mileage between shipper & receiver.

Reagan came along, deregulated trucking, and 'Capitalism' took over.
Large companies would underbid the Owner/Operators, taking contracts, and once the O/O was out of business, they would jack the rate back up so they could make money.
The rest of the corporate fleet would off set the losses until the O/Os were extinct, then increase shipping costs absorbing what used to be profit for Free Market O/Os.
Insurance and fuel in particular have well outpaced any increases in income.

If you sit down and figure the increases in fuel, equipment, insurance, and general inflation, truck drivers in general haven't had a 'Raise' since 1985.

Trucks are now about 80% company, and about 20% O/O.
Even if you do 'Own' your own truck, you have to get your freight through one of the big shipping companies that take VERY large 'Brokerage' fees, and the O/O is still not getting paid.

Ever increasing and restrictive DOT regulations have kept many out of truck driving.

For instance, DOT qualification health physicals, required every two years...
While a medical doctor trains for 2 days to give physicals to commerical airline pilots with up to 350 human passengers on board, a two page form,
Truck drivers physical training is 10 days for the doctor, and the physical form is 6 pages, and the cargo isn't human.

Another instance is the CSA program (Compliance Safety & Accountability).
Drivers are given a 100 point maximum,
While a seat belt ticket might be 2 points on the regular drivers licence, might be a 30 CSA point ticket.
If that same car driver gets a warning (warning, no points) the same warning for a truck driver he still gets the points, with no avenue for appeal (no 'Due Process' before punishment is handed down).

Law enforcement has taken full advantage of this, ticket quotas are still met when 'Warnings' are issued, but the driver has no way to appeal and soon finds their Commercial Drivers Licence credentials suspended or revoked.
When drivers started running drive cameras and documented everything, the 'Warnings' went way up, no hard ticket, no court date, no judge to show the video to... You get the points no matter what. This is ideal for law enforcement since there is no chance of being reversed in court, but it's about the worst thing that can happen to the driver.

You also have to consider the increase of passenger cars on the road... Doing everything BUT driving.
Dodging 1,000 idiots on cell phones, road ragers, "Fast And Furious" idiots, the 'Entitled' idiots that act like the laws and rules of physics don't apply to them is REALLY stressful. Every day, all day long... STRESS!
Bad 'Road' food (diet), under absloute deadline all the time, shippers & receivers treating you like garbage, suicidal car drivers, arrogant law enforcement, mountains of DOT, CSA, Tax & Insurance paperwork, irregular work/sleep hours, dispatchers that DON'T CARE you just spent 10 hours in an industrial (LOUD) shipper and couldn't get any rest, you are sick, just spent 5 hours in a traffic backup, etc, they DEMAND you drive 11 hours and deliver on time, no quiet place to rest when you do get sleep time, don't forget the toll it takes on the personal life, divorce rates of truck drivers is estimated at around 90%,

It all adds up to simply not be worth it.

And, if you believe you are going to make $100,000 a year at 26¢ a mile, when 10%-15% of your miles are scalped off the top using mileage programs developed specifically for that function to begin with, you are in for an education.
And don't forget the prices of everything you have to buy on the road will be 50%-100% higher than your local discount stores you can get into driving a car.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

It isn't just the income that deters people from becoming doctors, nurses, teachers, police, and choosing many other careers. It is the cost of the education to even get there. Being saddled with huge debt before you even graduate is making people reallt think about what they want to do in order to get through school and get a job to start building a life.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Simple answer: Government. It tends to foul up anything it touches.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nursing home nurses and care givers in the Austin area are primarily Somalians and Nigerians. The average Anglo American worker doesn’t want those jobs.



Oh caregivers, yes they are not as well paid. I was just noting Registered nurses.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> If those numbers are pretty good why is there a shortage?
> Personally I think those numbers are at absolute junk waste of time. Look at the truck driver wage where they divided by 2000 hours to get the wage per hour.
> How many drivers work a 40 hour week


I was just posting the facts. You don't have to agree with them


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

When you hear complaints of labor shortages, just assume that is propaganda leading a push for more H1B visas or a wish to drive down wages or something similar. Probably at least 3 in 10 college age girls I know are in school to be nurses. Either we're very very sick as a nation or something else is going on.

Edit: and yes the free market is broken. It cannot function for the good of a nation's people when applied at a global level. Citizens competing? Great. Bring in H1Bs for willing to work for what a citizen would consider slave wages? Not so great. 

Manufacturing costs high because you have to pay men enough for them to raise a family and allow their wife to stay home? Hell why not move manufacturing to China or India? Yay free market?


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## StarSchoolFarm (Nov 29, 2013)

H1B’s working for slave wages? I have 20 years in the restaurant industry all across the US and in parts of Europe. The H1B’s start at the same pay as everyone else and get pay raises just like everyone else. On top of that most of them are supplied free or low cost housing & transportation to & from the job by the employer, while the “citizen”, as you put it, worker has to pay their own rent/transportation etc.… 

So how are H1B’s wages considered “slave wages” again?


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

After working in a nursing home, I can say one reason of why there is a shortage of nursing staff....
How much money would you want to be paid when one of your jobs is to clean up another person's private parts during a diarrhea attack? 
I've done it for family, not sure there's enough money for me to do it for a stranger. My hat's off to those that do....


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Farmerga said:


> Simple answer: Government. It tends to foul up anything it touches.


That’s not any answer at all. How do you contend the government keep both wages and employment low ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

keenataz said:


> I was just posting the facts. You don't have to agree with them


 Lol those facts were nothing but fantasy. It’s the old computer problem garbage in garbage out.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

StarSchoolFarm said:


> H1B’s working for slave wages? I have 20 years in the restaurant industry all across the US and in parts of Europe. The H1B’s start at the same pay as everyone else and get pay raises just like everyone else. On top of that most of them are supplied free or low cost housing & transportation to & from the job by the employer, while the “citizen”, as you put it, worker has to pay their own rent/transportation etc.…
> 
> So how are H1B’s wages considered “slave wages” again?


Simple their pay defines the wage floor in the industry.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Simple answer: Government. It tends to foul up anything it touches.





HDRider said:


> More government equals less freedom. Too much government means too little freedom.


How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs requiring doctors to have attended an actual medical school, graduated, passed the medical boards! 

How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs require nuclear reactor technical people be qualified! 

How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs require airline pilots to have flight school and be trained to fly a million pound jumbo jet with 350 passengers over populated areas!

How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs require safety glass, seat belts, air bags, who do they think they are saving millions of lives?!

How DARE those dirty jack booted socialist government thugs fill in the pot holes, plow snow and repave highways!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs requiring doctors to have attended an actual medical school, graduated, passed the medical boards!
> 
> How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs require nuclear reactor technical people be qualified!
> 
> ...


It would be nice if there were qualifications required to become a jack booted thug. No one in their right mind is promoting anarchy, but there really needs to be limits on the governments power.. Our founders placed limits upon the Feds, (long ago usurped and ignored) the states should have some "common sense" power control laws as well.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs requiring doctors to have attended an actual medical school, graduated, passed the medical boards!
> 
> How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs require nuclear reactor technical people be qualified!
> 
> ...


Of course, if that was all they did, it wouldn't be a problem, but, that is not all they do.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> That’s not any answer at all. How do you contend the government keep both wages and employment low ?


Over regulation stifles wages, hiring, and new business creation.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It would be nice if there were qualifications required to become a jack booted thug. No one in their right mind is promoting anarchy, but there really needs to be limits on the governments power.. Our founders placed limits upon the Feds, (long ago usurped and ignored) the states should have some "common sense" power control laws as well.


I think they write their own qualifications.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Farmerga said:


> Over regulation stifles wages, hiring, and new business creation.


 But isn’t it plenty of business that has created the employee shortage?
How can business be stifled and so good there arnt enough employees at the same time ?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> But isn’t it plenty of business that has created the employee shortage?
> How can business be stifled and so good there arnt enough employees at the same time ?


Well as of late some of the more stifling regulation as been relaxed by the Trump administration. Which as cause unemployment to drop and wages to increase.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JeepHammer said:


> How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs requiring doctors to have attended an actual medical school, graduated, passed the medical boards!
> 
> How DARE those dirty jack booted government thugs require nuclear reactor technical people be qualified!
> 
> ...


 You are right how dare they be involved with requirements for doctors.
Are they ?
Can’t see any reason for them to be involved in Reactor qualifications .
Can’t see how Auto safety devices are any of their business. 
But it seems reasonable to require pilot standards 
And to maintain highways.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Farmerga said:


> Well as of late some of the more stifling regulation as been relaxed by the Trump administration. Which as cause unemployment to drop and wages to increase.


Lol there have been driver and healthcare worker shortages since the Ronald Reagan administration.
I don’t think we can credit trump with that.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> You are right how dare they be involved with requirements for doctors.
> Are they ?


Why do you think there are state/federal boards that test for minimum education?
Maybe to ensure a 'Doctor' practicing in their state is qualified and not an imposter or came from a 'Quack' school, or no school at all?



> Can’t see any reason for them to be involved in Reactor qualifications .


Maybe because they don't want some random company hiring 'Fast Eddie' the crack head off the street to work on or operate a nuclear reactor?
Maybe so they can background check the employee to make sure they aren't crazy or a terrorist?



> Can’t see how Auto safety devices are any of their business.


Maybe because safety glass, laminated windshields, seat belts, air bags save a lot of lives,
But manufacturers wouldn't install since it cost them money which cut into profits.
According to manufacturers, lead, asbestos, mercury, dioxin, benzine, DDT, and 10,000 other things were 'Safe'... Why would vehicles be any different?
Look up "Decapitation By Windshield Crown Of Thorns" and see if you want an old time windshield and no seat belts...



> But it seems reasonable to require pilot standards
> And to maintain highways.


That's mighty 'Leftist' and 'Socialist' of you! 

I'd say having an actual engineer build bridges, someone that understands the forces applied, the strength of materials, corrosion rates, ect.
Rather than an 'Artists' that makes 'Pretty' things, or a baker that makes baked things...

If *YOU* want some random guy off the street doing surgery on you, that's *YOUR* choice, I want someone that graduated an accredited medical school, had an internship, residency in surgery, is fully accredited and trained, capable of doing the surgery without killing or crippling me.
I want fully educated, trained & certified designing and inspecting the bridges I have to drive on so something like the I-35 bridge collapse in Minneapolis doesn't happen again.
I want the pilot & mechanics on the plane I'm boarding to be fully educated, trained, capable of doing their jobs, and after the Miami incident recently, a security background check would be a good idea too.

Which other 3rd party (independent outside observer) is capable of doing that job and recommending laws when people get hurt & die if not the government when companies don't do the ethical thing and let people get mangled and die?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol there have been driver and healthcare worker shortages since the Ronald Reagan administration.
> I don’t think we can credit trump with that.


I was speaking of the broader economy, quite obviously.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Free market wages wlll work themselves out. Government "help" fouls the process. 
Welfare has created "jobs Americans won't do". The welfare safety net is a multi-generational hammock. Given the choice between devoting a third of each day to a job or lowering expectations and nursing off the government teet, a growing number chose teet.

In a fair world, the harder the job, the greater the pay. The more skill needed the greater the pay. The more undesirable the job the higher the pay. In a perfect world.

Rather than adjust the wages to fit the job, rather than use wages to entice employees to preform the required tasks, we import desperate people from Third World Countries. These "migrants" escape their dire circumstances and joyfully accept stoop labor. But, equally concerning are the tens of thousands of educated doctors, nurses, engineers and chemists, that are drawn out of these impoverished countries, only to undermine wages in this country.

At times, staffing shortages are contrived. As a Correction Officer, I saw chronic staff shortages, spanning decades. It is simple economics. Paying one employee overtime pay is less costly than employing two employees, due to added training, uniforms, health insurance. An employee earning $40,000 a year, but with overtime earning $60,000 a year is more likely to stay in their awful job, since other available jobs, without overtime, pay far less.

We need a gradual dial down of welfare benefits. A sort of weaning. This nudge will insure low wage, unskilled jobs will be filled. If we cannot fill all the jobs of picking $2 a quart strawberries, then perhaps we'll have $2.50 strawberries. Perhaps $5.00 strawberries. Wages must increase to meet the demand. If we can't attract citizens to flip burgers for $10 an hour, then pay more. If that hurts fast food businesses, too bad. People will still have other choices.

We should not be depleting the Mexican work force to insure $1 a pound chicken breasts in this country.

If a hospital cannot attract enough nurses, then they need to address their benefit packages. Many communities, faced with a large animal veterinarian shortage have offered to fund a student's education in return for a commitment in their community. The construction industry, faced with skilled trades shortages, are providing subsidized training.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

haypoint said:


> We need a gradual dial down of welfare benefits. A sort of weaning. This nudge will insure low wage, unskilled jobs will be filled. If we cannot fill all the jobs of picking $2 a quart strawberries, then perhaps we'll have $2.50 strawberries. Perhaps $5.00 strawberries. Wages must increase to meet the demand. If we can't attract citizens to flip burgers for $10 an hour, then pay more. If that hurts fast food businesses, too bad. People will still have other choices.


When I was overseas, we made contact with an American backed church that funded start-up missions.
They had a fairly simple and highly effective formula for getting their new plants off the ground and on their feet.
It was a 4 year strategy.
Year 1 they funded the project 100% including all salaries, materials, permits, labor, housing, travel, food, etc.
Year 2 they funded 75% and then decreased their monetary commitment by 25% each of the next two years.
It wasn't rocket science. It allowed a reasonable amount of time for the project to succeed and for the organizations to create their own base of independence.
That same plan will work in a multitude of areas. It just takes a little commitment.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol those facts were nothing but fantasy. It’s the old computer problem garbage in garbage out.


No it's numbers you don't agree with. Doesn't make them false. It is average. That means some get paid less and some more.

Why don't you post facts?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Free market wages wlll work themselves out. Government "help" fouls the process.
> Welfare has created "jobs Americans won't do". The welfare safety net is a multi-generational hammock. Given the choice between devoting a third of each day to a job or lowering expectations and nursing off the government teet, a growing number chose teet.
> 
> In a fair world, the harder the job, the greater the pay. The more skill needed the greater the pay. The more undesirable the job the higher the pay. In a perfect world.
> ...


I'm mostly with you until the 3rd paragraph...
Its not the relatively few immigrants, particularly legal immigrants that undermines labor wages in this country to any big degree...
Immigrants start at the bottom unless they have very specific skill sets and immigrate legally so the education, experience can be verified so they can assume jobs in the market they were educated & trained for.
Doctors, engineers, etc won't get into those fields for better wages unless they are legal and can prove the education & training.

The problem lies with global corporations fixing benefits & wages, and it's no secret the corporations will price fix,
First by agreeing amongst themselves what they will pay for certain positions, then quoting the 'Average', which the corporations fixed in the first place.

This cycle is further aggrivated by requiring educated, qualified people (understandable and perfectly reasonable) but having excessive debt from getting that required education traps the qualified into taking low paying jobs to pay student loans, the global companies know this, encourage this, so they can take advantage of this and pay even less with less benefits.

The result, which no one can argue, is concentration of money, wealth at the top (Capitalism) opposed to paying someone what they are actually worth (Free Market) to the process/production.

Minimum wage, no benefits, unskilled labor jobs will always be just that, any random person off the street can do that job, the definition of 'Unskilled Labor', so the labor pool source doesn't mean much, the jobs are there, doesn't matter which unskilled laborer does it.
The more advanced jobs with better pay and benefits is where corporations like to scalp the skilled work force, and if you don't believe it, ask yourself where the American economic middle class went since 'Capitalism' took over government in the 80s, busting labor unions, took over most segments of the economy by hostile takeovers and controlling entire market sectors...

From trucking/transportation being deregulated, and unions being busted allowing 'Capitalism' to take over, truck Owner/Operators effectively haven't had a raise since 1985, and Owner/Operators making up 80% of the market went from the economic middle class to low income, the market is now 20% Owner/Operator.

Medical Doctors went from 95% private practice to around 5% since 'Health Care' was deregulated. Wages went WAY down while costs skyrocketed, and quality of care plummeted.

Drug companies charge what the market will bear ('Capitalism') instead of a fair profit from manufacture and also monopolize the markets...
An example is my Epi-Pen for bee stings, something I need to stay alive...
From $35 to $300 to $600.
The drug inside the pen hasn't increased in price, it's generic and made in quantity by several manufacturers.
A single 'Speculator' bought up all the patents for the approved injectors and refused to licence the patent to anyone else, they also sued the life out of anyone that tried to make an injector, even if that maker used the patents or not, they got dragged through courts for years costing them millions of dollars.
The maker has also exchanged 'Executives' between it's company and the FDA, swinging door policy, to block any other injector design from being FDA approved.

Banking deregulation killed the local bank, leading to global banks that are now considered 'Too Big To Fail' while fees & penalties skyrocketed, quality of service plummeted, profits are concentrated at the top instead of reinvested in the local communities, entire towns, and a couple of states failed because they can't get local investments anymore since the 'Capital' is concentrated at the top somewhere...

No one has to pass monopoly laws against Free Market,
Make a superior product, make a reasonable profit, spend the money on the people you need, act ethically and no one has to investigate abuses simply because there aren't any abuses.

Every 'Capitalism' global business is being investigated for price fixing, abuse of workers, tax fraud, disparity of cost to profit ratios (price gouging), envormental and general corruption.
When you ignore the connections, which are pretty obvious, it's not hard to figure out what happened to the economic middle class, why collage graduates are being trapped into life long debt, why 'Capital' is taken out of the economy when certain political parties are in office, and why the money gets turned back on when the 'Other' political party comes back into office.

We got engineered into this 40 or more years ago so global 'Capitalism' could concentrate wealth at the top, and it worked... Free Market got squeezed out in favor of 'Capitalism', wealth extracted from the economic middle class (since the poor don't have wealth to extract) and concentrated at the top to facilitate even more 'Capitalism'.
'Capitalism' is the 'Golden Rule' gone bad, if you have the gold, you make the rules (or break the rules and hide behind lawyers, never facing justice).

------------

As for 'Welfare', if the person is healthy, provide a reward based system, benefits continue as long as they keep up with education/job training, provide assistance with living & education expenses as long as standards are met until that person can support themselves in a tax paying job.
If that person can't (unable) become a taxpayer, that's what long term disability is for.
If the person WON'T become a taxpayer (so they pay off the money they absorbed) then cut them off, remove children so they don't get caught in the middle.
No sense in throwing good money after bad if that person simply WON'T work.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It would be nice if there were qualifications required to become a jack booted thug. No one in their right mind is promoting anarchy, but there really needs to be limits on the governments power.. Our founders placed limits upon the Feds, (long ago usurped and ignored) the states should have some "common sense" power control laws as well.


That's REALLY FUNNY! 
Seriously, laughing my butt off here!

You (collectively) voted the politicians into office that passed all the laws and regulations you don't like,
AND,
You (collectively) have been doing it for an average of 34 years in office where Congress is concerned!
You (collectively) have a chance to vote any/all out every election, but you keep doing the same thing over & over expecting different results...

*You (collectively) has a choice to vote 96% of congress out in the 2016 elections,
BUT...
You (collectively) fell for the Hillary/Trump dog & pony show and voted them right back in AGAIN!

The president makes NO LAWS, that falls exclusively in the lap of congress, and yet you *Think* the president is going to make laws about guns, renewable energy, health care, etc.
Congress goes right around the president with a 2/3 super majority, and yet you blame laws on the president... HILARIOUS!  

Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results is one major indicator of insanity...*

SO!
I'm laughing my butt off everytime someone complains about issues that are a dog & pony show to distract you (collectively) from actual issues that need addressing and correcting...
*It's like watching a dog that just wants SOMEONE/ANYONE to throw a ball while THE HOUSE BURNS DOWN, and I find it REMARKABLY FUNNY to see it over and over again!*

Government doesn't have to get involved when people simply don't act unethically in the first place...
If everyone did that, we wouldn't need all the laws and regulations, but they don't, so we DO have the laws & regulations, generated by the ELECTED OFFICIAL LAW MAKERS *YOU* (collectively) voted in, then complain about them!

**YOU* (collectively) MAKE THE WEATHER, THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT RAIN & MUD!*
And I find that tears rolling, table slapping, fall out of the chair HILARIOUS! 

THROW THE BALL!!! (Hillary's emails, Trump's hookers, Clinton foundation, Trump's bankruptcies, PIZZA-GATE!, 'Fake News'...) JUST KEEP CHASING THAT BALL!!! 

Grab a fiddle Nero, it's going to be a long, HOT night in Rome!


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

HDRider said:


> More government equals less freedom. Too much government means too little freedom.


What an answer...
No government -> Anarchy, no streets, no army, no police, no social stability
I am not long enough in this country to know what this government did to the people in the past that is hated so much, but normally government is good for the people...And even more important, it is elected BY the people...
And nurses/truck drivers are very hard working people...something that the typical college drop out does not want to do anymore...
These days no one really wants to work physical anymore...only high paid, air conditioned 9-5 jobs are wanted where you can be seen and famous...
And there is an old German saying...the more beneficial a work is for the society, the less will it be paid.
And in a deregulated capitalistic system on steroids like the US market, we can be happy that we get paid at all...cause without the from the government put in place minimum wage law, we would be all back in slavery...the rich would NEVER ever pay us...and def not grant us any benefits if they would not have to...
So to blame government for everything is easy...to make it better, a lot of work...
So if you dont like the way it is, vote someone totally different...i mean not blue and not red...so that someone NON criminal is able to change it all to better


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Meinecke said:


> What an answer...
> No government -> Anarchy, no streets, no army, no police, no social stability
> I am not long enough in this country to know what this government did to the people in the past that is hated so much, but normally government is good for the people...And even more important, it is elected BY the people...
> And nurses/truck drivers are very hard working people...something that the typical college drop out does not want to do anymore...
> ...


There is a balance. Too much government is bad, and too little government is bad. Europe favor's more government.

I think the US has exceeded the tipping point with too much big government. We have too many laws. You don't even know when you break them. We have too many regulations. It stifles free enterprise. Regulations have killed the small meat processing business. 

Name one thing that government does well.

Beyond all that, big government breeds and conceals corruption. Our elected officials write the laws they are paid to write. Incumbents are routinely reelected. Not because they are the best candidate, but rather from the power of incumbency and big money backing a known commodity. 

More control should remain at the state level. And more should remain at the local level.

Early in our history, this battle raged between Hamilton and Jefferson. Hamilton argued for no state government, with all the power centralized in DC. Jefferson pushed for more power within the states. That battle still rages. 

I gave the short answer before, You went spastic. I am sure this answer will not calm you, as the longer answer still does not fit with your vision.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Another reason the free market has broken down is not surprising at all. Too few people and companies control too much. They take over all the small companies and we end up with what they decide we should have. This is really visible in the grocery stores. Brand names that were around for decades are bought up and they disappear forcing us to buy only one product.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

emdeengee said:


> Another reason the free market has broken down is not surprising at all. Too few people and companies control too much. They take over all the small companies and we end up with what they decide we should have. This is really visible in the grocery stores. Brand names that were around for decades are bought up and they disappear forcing us to buy only one product.


It is visible in many areas. Big has got too big. There are now only 4 companies that process 90% of our beef. 

Per another thread, too much influence is in the hands of too few media owners. 

Seeds are monopolized by two companies. 

It is a long list of things that are too big. Government being another.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Thx for the explanation...
As i said, i am not here long enough to see/know the frustration...
And coming from a regulated country like Germany, it feels extreme loose handled here...
Besides that you are right, there is a lot of stuff, that no one tells you and you only know its wrong when you get caught...
For example...towing a vehicle...the driver license book and tests dont lose a word about it, but you are not allowed to tow a vehicle in nj with rope or bar...
In my home country with way more speed on the streets, its is totally normal...you can imagine my surprise when the dark dressed gentleman told me i do something illegal 
Since he saw my greencard (now citizen) and German heritage he let me finish my towing, but it was an interesting conversation with him when i asked where i could find that regulation...
Luckily i never experienced anything bad with US cops yet...all very nice people (with oddly the same haircut)


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

The American public was sold bold faced lies by an actor 40 years ago...
That guy was supported & financed by big global conglomerate companies to do exactly what he did.
Keep in mind his big ideas bankrupted California before he got elected president, before that, he was second banana to a monkey actor...

Reagan busted unions, deregulated most sectors of big global conglomerate business, allowed PUBLIC wealth to be removed from the country hand over fist...

Deregulation of 'Wealth Management' companies allowed them to NOT work for the clients investing with them, the 'Fiduciary Responsibility' to the person that invested the money in the first place, you get fees out the wazoo, and they 'Churn' sticks to get commissions from trades.

I learned this first hand when I 'Invested' (coned out of) my savings, 1-1/2 years later I had nothing left.
An expensive lesson...

The reason banks spun off 'Investment' and 'Management' divisions was banks still have *Some* Fiduciary Responsibilities under government regulation/mandates, while the 'Investment' & 'Management' divisions have virtually no restrictions.
They aren't required to tell you small cap stocks our perform large cap stocks, utilities are usually tax exempt, but grow a little slower, make more money in the long haul because they don't have fees & taxes, etc.
If they had a Fiduciary Responsibility, they would have to advise you they charged excessive fees, churned your stocks for more fees even though you are loosing money etc.

Deregulation of Banks and financial companies almost instantly went sideways,
The savings & loan scandals, the junk bond investment scandals, 'Black Monday' stock market crash in '87...
More deregulation allowed the savings and loan fraud to be scaled up to a national level, and created the sub-prime mortgage disaster,
The deregulation of banking allowed the global conglomerate banks to pull the wealth out of middle America, and when it all got shipped out of the country or lost through mismanagement, the banks were 'Too Big To Fail' and had to be bailed out, since the federal insurance (FDIC) would have bankrupted the country to pay back common person investors, the mismanagement was rewarded instead of punished by the process of economic 'Natural Selection'.

All that and more from just one BIG LIE delivered by an actor to sell the public on 'Capitalism'...
During the cold war everyone was scared to death of Communists Nuclear Bombs,
And our president and his 'Advisors' used it against use...
The bumper sticker slogan, totally false BIG LIE,...
*"Capitalist vs. Communism". 
If you don't support 'Capitalism' you are a Communist.*

It was that easy, that simple.
And no one could shout down the president of the United States since he had the biggest & loudist platform to shout from...
And they DRILLED that lie into the American public day and night.

Democracy is the opposite of Communism.
Free Market is the opposite of Capitalism.

*Capitalism is economic Communism, everything is mandated from the top unelected officials, and all wealth flows up to the top unelected officials.*

Many people still believe the lies, and defend capitalism to the death,
When the American ideal has always been you get what you work for, not what you can 'Appropriate' (steal) from everyone else...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol there have been driver and healthcare worker shortages since the Ronald Reagan administration.


That's more due to population growth than politics.
There's no real shortage of drivers.
There are just lots of better jobs to be had.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Many people still believe the lies


It depends on who is telling them.
People aren't nearly as gullible as you like to imply.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It depends on who is telling them.
> People aren't nearly as gullible as you like to imply.


Do you really read all his jibber jabber? I get three or four lines into one his many manifestos and skip it. I tried a couple of times and it was twisted, circular, rambling and of little value


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Do you really read all his jibber jabber?


No, not really.
I've heard it all before anyway.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Do you really read all his jibber jabber? I get three or four lines into one his many manifestos and skip it. I tried a couple of times and it was twisted, circular, rambling and of little value


That's too bad, ideas, opinions & history explored won't fit in "three or four lines", it's an unfortunate issue you have.

If it's a reading disability, have you tried text to speech programs?
Virtually all history is available on audio books, and many current books also have audio version that might help.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> That's too bad, ideas, opinions & history explored won't fit in "three or four lines", it's an unfortunate issue you have.
> 
> If it's a reading disability, have you tried text to speech programs?
> Virtually all history is available on audio books, and many current books also have audio version that might help.


I just don't like long winded circular diatribes that do nothing but espouse opinions that go nowhere. No offense.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Do you really read all his jibber jabber? I get three or four lines into one his many manifestos and skip it. I tried a couple of times and it was twisted, circular, rambling and of little value


I’m pretty sure you can find copies on late night tv. I think the books and an accompanying degree from “university of education “ are included for four easy payments. Might have got a set of ginsus thrown in for acting now.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

keenataz said:


> No it's numbers you don't agree with. Doesn't make them false. It is average. That means some get paid less and some more.
> 
> Why don't you post facts?


Because facts that you can trust about the trucking industry are notoriously hard to come by.

For instance the reason I don’t like those numbers is that they are internally inconsistent. 
So you came up with the numbers how about telling us the methodology at which they were arrived at. 
If you take a truck drivers yearly wage and divide by 2000 hours I do not believe you’re going to get his hourly rate. 
Most drivers work the limit and that is 70 hours in eight days. 
If you divide that into the number of days in a year you get something like 3000 hours and while that might cover his actual driving time it probably doesn’t cover his working time and it certainly doesn’t cover his away from home time. 
But with those numbers it makes it seem even stranger that those wages can’t hire enough drivers .
It’s the same with healthcare practitioners.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I just don't like long winded circular diatribes that do nothing but espouse opinions that go nowhere. No offense.


So it's not a reading disability?

You simply don't want to discuss any idea/opinion that doesn't align with yours, and you want the agreement to your opinion to be a bumper sticker length or meme response?
Am I reading you correctly?

If I'm understand you correctly, why are you on 'Social Media' when there is no 'Socializing' other than your opinion and short agreements with your opinion?
Doesn't that defeat the point of 'Social Media' when you aren't willing to be 'Social'?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> So it's not a reading disability?
> 
> You simply don't want to discuss any idea/opinion that doesn't align with yours, and you want the agreement to your opinion to be a bumper sticker length or meme response?
> Am I reading you correctly?
> ...


Some are worth investing my time. Yours are not


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Am I reading you correctly?


No.
He's been very clear.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Because facts that you can trust about the trucking industry are notoriously hard to come by.
> 
> For instance the reason I don’t like those numbers is that they are internally inconsistent.
> So you came up with the numbers how about telling us the methodology at which they were arrived at.
> ...


Easier than you might think...
Number of DOT registered commerical freight carriers, the DOT.

The number of independent Owner/Operators, Independent Drivers, OOIDA (Owner Operator Independent Drivers Association) 
Or, since OOIDA is voluntary,
IFTA registrations (International Fuel Tax Agreement), 
Simply see how many trucks are registered as owner operated.
Public records.

Since every truck, O/O or fleet has to have a DOT number, and every truck has to have IFTA registration, the numbers are absloutley reliable.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> That's too bad, ideas, opinions & history explored won't fit in "three or four lines", it's an unfortunate issue you have.
> 
> If it's a reading disability, have you tried text to speech programs?
> Virtually all history is available on audio books, and many current books also have audio version that might help.


I think it has more to do with your highly flawed version of history, not to mention outright lies.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Some are worth investing my time. Yours are not


Would that be because I don't agree with you in specific, or the far right agenda in general?
Or is it something else? 
Maybe you don't like the delivery so you ignore the idea/opinion/viewpoint entirely?
Maybe it doesn't align with what you think of as history?
Some of us were wide awake when this stuff happened, the 'Official' version is different and it confuses you?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> I think it has more to do with your highly flawed version of history, not to mention outright lies.


That's easy to deal with, simply prove I'm mistaken or outright lying...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

We have.
I've listed a handful before. So have others.
You apparently think no one will know if you just ignore the matter.
More or less, most just don't care enough to concern themselves.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> Would that be because I don't agree with you in specific, or the far right agenda in general?
> Or is it something else?
> Maybe you don't like the delivery so you ignore the idea/opinion/viewpoint entirely?
> Maybe it doesn't align with what you think of as history?
> Some of us were wide awake when this stuff happened, the 'Official' version is different and it confuses you?


First, you are very insulting, some of it is bald face, some of it is underhanded, but insulting nonetheless.

You go on too long. You copy a lot of links and make claims as to what they mean, and one waste time to read them to find out they don't back you up, they simply clutter your argument. In short, your presentation is very convoluted.

I could add more to this list, but why bother?

Lastly, and I will let you have the last word, but I don't want any more back and forth on why I ignore most of what you say, I often engage with others that disagree with me. Ask around.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> I think it has more to do with your highly flawed version of history, not to mention outright lies.





GTX63 said:


> We have.
> I've listed a handful before. So have others.
> You apparently think no one will know if you just ignore the matter.
> More or less, most just don't care enough to concern themselves.





HDRider said:


> First, you are very insulting, some of it is bald face, some of it is underhanded, but insulting nonetheless.
> 
> You go on too long. You copy a lot of links and make claims as to what they mean, and one waste time to read them to find out they don't back you up, they simply clutter your argument. In short, your presentation is very convoluted.
> 
> ...


So, does that mean you have run out of ligitimate facts/information about what happened to Free Market and have chosen to insult instead of simply back out of the conversation with nothing more constructive to add?

Entire books have been written on the death of the free economy and the dismantling of the economic middle class, none of them will fit in "three or four lines" (that's why they call them 'Books').

I can't do anything about what you 'Believe', your religion is up to you.
What the conversation was about, what killed Free Market?
Short answer, an actor that sold the choice between 'Capitalism' or 'Communism' when they aren't the opposite of each other.
He fooled nearly all people (including me) for some time,
He fooled some of the people all the time,
Some are still fooled...

I don't pray at the cult of personality, not LBJ, not Nixon, not any of the presidents after them.

I just think it's remarkably funny the guys that complain the loudest about the 'Governmemt' just keep voting the same people back into office that killed Free Market, sucked the middle class dry, passed all the laws they hate,
BUT they just keep voting for over & over again!
That's Hilarious to watch, like a guy beating HIMSELF in the crotch!


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You posted three quotes but I don't think you responded to any of them, and I squinted too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> That's easy to deal with, simply prove I'm mistaken or outright lying..


That's been done many times before.
You just ignore it.



JeepHammer said:


> I don't pray at the *cult* of personality


And there it is again...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> You posted three quotes but I don't think you responded to any of them, and I squinted too.


I didn't see anything on the subject, "What Happened To Free Market",
All I saw was personal attacks and insults, attempts to pull things off topic and provoke a lash out response.

You all don't have even an alternative theory what happened to Free Market that supported the middle economic class, you didn't even connect the two.
I don't know if you were unaware the two were dependant on each other or not....

You all *SAY* it wasn't Reagan,
And/Or you *SAY* Capitalism didn't kill the middle class/free market, 
BUT,
Offer not only zero proof to support any theory you might have, but you can't postulate/form a a vague idea about what happened to the free market/middle class,
You just parriot "Too Much Government" and 'Capitalism Good/Communism Bad' no specifics, not even vague ideas, just keep repeating the same old tired mantra/dogma...


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Each of you might want to invest in a small goat herd. You could have almost the same quality of interaction.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Each of you might want to invest in a small goat herd. You could have almost the same quality of interaction.


Yes mother. Sorry mother.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> All I saw was personal attacks and insults


We see yours too.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> I didn't see anything on the subject, "What Happened To Free Market",
> All I saw was personal attacks and insults, attempts to pull things off topic and provoke a lash out response.
> 
> You all don't have even an alternative theory what happened to Free Market that supported the middle economic class, you didn't even connect the two.
> ...


Yeah... well, eh...you asked about your lying and false facts. I'm sure you can walk back and find your post.
I think the referee can go ahead and give this one a 10 count.
I sort of get the impression your not very comfortable or used to, others in your circle disagreeing with your pov, and that kind of goes against any meaningful discussion.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Each of you might want to invest in a small goat herd. You could have almost the same quality of interaction.


Now Alice I have a wonderful group of bullheaded, obstinate, loppy eared, icy blue eyed fiends that would be happy to debate all day and night the positives of life outside of the fence I keep repairing because of them.
This is my cool down time.
They have a choice- cooperate or it is the pot or the sale barn. I go every Tuesday but I come back.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Each of you might want to invest in a small goat herd. You could have almost the same quality of interaction.


YUP!
I don't think they like it when someone butts heads with them...
The difference is, I don't care how many!



GTX63 said:


> Yeah... well, eh...you asked about your lying and false facts. I'm sure you can walk back and find your post.
> I think the referee can go ahead and give this one a 10 count.
> I sort of get the impression your not very comfortable or used to, others in your circle disagreeing with your pov, and that kind of goes against any meaningful discussion.


Actually, my circle is pretty diverse and we butt heads constantly and about everything under the sun.
It's the way we straighten each other out when one goes too far out into the 'Stupid' field looking for landmines with a hammer...

If you want to address anything outside the topic on top the thread, talk to the moderators.
I've been warned to stay on topic, and I've been closely watched and censored, posts and entire threads deleted without explanation, and I've asked...

As to what happened to Free Market, which you can't separate from the economic middle class, other than screaming "GOVERNMENT", absolutely nothing...
Just make personal attacks on anyone that posts anything other than "GOVERNMENT!"

*IF* there were ANY other idea/opinion it would be different, but since there isn't a single other opinion, idea, theory, just nothing, I'd have to say it's dog pile attack on anything I post.
You don't post ANYTHING AT ALL that supports anything else, just call me names because I don't parrot the dogma you subscribe to...

Now, unless you can come up with ANYTHING, any other explanation, and provide some kind of proof since you called me a liar, you go ahead and get your last insult posts in, because until someone/anyone comes up with something credible and on topic, it's pointless to continue with the playground exchanges...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Its not the relatively few immigrants, particularly legal immigrants that undermines labor wages in this country to any big degree..


In an economy that has supply and demand as its foundation, every doctor, nurse, engineer, internet technician from abroad, drives down demand (or reduces the shortage) and that always suppresses wages. Many big hospitals travel to third world countries to recruit doctors and nurses. Thousands are here on temporary work visas. Most resort communities do this, too. Mackinac Island, MI and Vale CO, for example.

BTW, in the context of this discussion, I am just talking about legal immigrants.


JeepHammer said:


> The result, which no one can argue, is concentration of money, wealth at the top (Capitalism) opposed to paying someone what they are actually worth (Free Market) to the process/production.


I do not think the definition of capitalism is "rich at the top" In my mind, capitalism and free market go together. One of the richest men in the last century, Henry Ford, paid his workers five times the average wage. That is the free market part of capitalism. 


JeepHammer said:


> Minimum wage, no benefits, unskilled labor jobs will always be just that, any random person off the street can do that job, the definition of 'Unskilled Labor', so the labor pool source doesn't mean much, the jobs are there, doesn't matter wh
> 
> 
> JeepHammer said:
> ...


The number of people willing to do minimum wage jobs determines the employer's ability fill these unskilled jobs. More low skilled workers and fewer jobs and the employer can treat their employees poorly. But a shortage of unskilled workers and the employer must attempt to attract more workers. This is seen in better hours, health insurance, even higher wages. Currently, the number of minimum wage, low skilled jobs is shrinking. However, immigration of people without skills is growing. This impacts unskilled citizens the most.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Because facts that you can trust about the trucking industry are notoriously hard to come by.
> 
> For instance the reason I don’t like those numbers is that they are internally inconsistent.
> So you came up with the numbers how about telling us the methodology at which they were arrived at.
> ...



There's an easier way to prove your point using the same stats they are citing for "average pay".
Compare it with pay/mile and see how it comes out.

It's true there are some gravy jobs that pay well by the hour and are all local, like UPS drivers.
But that's NOT where the shortage is, it's in OTR drivers, which I'm sure you know.

So take that $45,000 average annual pay and divide by cents/mile.
Use a high number like .45 cents a mile to make it easy. (We both know it's more like 30 cents a mile or less for rookies IF you're lucky)
That comes to an even 100,000 miles a year, which is a good average year, but a lot of hard driving to do it.
To drive 100,000 miles in 2000 hours you have to average 50mph - all day every day.
Anyone that's done road trips knows that's the brass ring, 50 mph avg,. and you were doing 70-80 most of the way with minimal stops, all interstate and no traffic jams.

Most truck drivers know that's unrealistic unless you have a triple digit truck and make only long, west coast/mid west runs.
If you use the real average pay per mile and real average mph trip times, there's *no way* you're gonna make that much working 2000 hours a year.
I drive like Kyle Busch and would have a hard time making those numbers work with FOUR wheels.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> If you want to address anything *outside the topic* on top the thread, talk to the moderators. I've been warned to stay *on topic*, and I've been closely watched and censored, posts and entire threads deleted without explanation, and I've asked.


Would that include educational levels and cult memberships?


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

haypoint said:


> In an economy that has supply and demand as its foundation, every doctor, nurse, engineer, internet technician from abroad, drives down demand (or reduces the shortage) and that always suppresses wages. Many big hospitals travel to third world countries to recruit doctors and nurses. Thousands are here on temporary work visas. Most resort communities do this, too. Mackinac Island, MI and Vale CO, for example.
> 
> BTW, in the context of this discussion, I am just talking about legal immigrants.


And exactly WHO (what entity/corporation goes abroad to recruit?
That takes a global network to recruit and vet qualified workers, the sponsor them for immigration guaranteeing a job.



> I do not think the definition of capitalism is "rich at the top" In my mind, capitalism and free market go together. One of the richest men in the last century, Henry Ford, paid his workers five times the average wage. That is the free market part of capitalism.


I respectfully disagree.
I'm a student of Henry Ford, he raised the business from the ground up and didn't get 'Capitol' infusion until the company went public.
Henry Ford paid workers well above the going rate, the turn of the century version of profit sharing.
The exact opposite of Capitalism that keeps good workers by paying them well for production & innovation.
He also sold that production for a reasonable profit above production cost, not gouging the market for all it would bear.

Capitolism by definition concentrates wealth at the top, pays workers as little as possible to 'Reduce Costs' and either gouges the market for all it will bear, or saturates the market so competitors can't get a foothold.



> The number of people willing to do minimum wage jobs determines the employer's ability fill these unskilled jobs. More low skilled workers and fewer jobs and the employer can treat their employees poorly. But a shortage of unskilled workers and the employer must attempt to attract more workers. This is seen in better hours, health insurance, even higher wages. Currently, the number of minimum wage, low skilled jobs is shrinking. However, immigration of people without skills is growing. This impacts unskilled citizens the most.


Not exactly, you are correct about availability of employee pool vs number of jobs.
There has never been a shortage of minimum wage jobs, the question is, is the minimum wage compensation equal to the job requirements?

You are incorrect, by definition, about minimum wage.
Minimum wage is mandated by the government.
Minimum wage is calculated to be basic survival for the 'Average' person.
Since medial insurance is now mandated, you are already behind basic survival with a minimum wage job, and that's before housing costs, vehicle/insurance costs, etc.

A minimum wage job only pays minimum wage because they aren't allowed to pay less, or the companies would pay less. 
Compensation for work done, is the question. Never been a shortage of minimum wage jobs so the minimum wage simply is VERY slow to increase.
If you are willing to work for minimum wage, you can always do a fast food job, but gutting/plucking chickens, hard, filthy manual labor should pay above minimum wage, but way too often doesn't...
That's an ethics issue by employers, which is another related, but not on topic issue.

Henry Ford paid five times the going rate, built hospitals for workers to provide qualified health care, built day care centers free to workers, etc. He didn't have ethics issues 'Capitalist' corporations do.
He built the third biggest private business in the world at the time, and the most productive private company at the time by being ethical, not capitalistic.
The company didn't have issues until 'Capitalist' acquired enough company stock to force changes, the unions were voted in to protect workers rights, and Ford became just another capitalistic corp...
Keep in mind his competition had to get monopoly investigation charges leveled against Henry Ford to get a foothold, so that's exactly what they did...


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nursing home nurses and care givers in the Austin area are primarily Somalians and Nigerians. The average Anglo American worker doesn’t want those jobs.


Many entry level nurses in the Columbus area are Somalian. Americans can't afford the classes for nursing school. The Somalian immigrants get free tuition.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> I didn't see anything on the subject, "What Happened To Free Market",
> All I saw was personal attacks and insults, attempts to pull things off topic and provoke a lash out response.
> 
> You all don't have even an alternative theory what happened to Free Market that supported the middle economic class, you didn't even connect the two.
> ...


Our free market began to dissipate long before Reagan. As did our middle class. Go on back to FDR and his "new deal" which was nothing new, just a repainted model of Karl Marx's ignorant schemes. Follow it forward to present day. Here we are. Maybe when we are all starving, being lined up to be shot so we fall forward into mass graves someone will see what went wrong.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JeepHammer said:


> Since every truck, O/O or fleet has to have a DOT number, and every truck has to have IFTA registration, the numbers are absloutley reliable.


I can’t see how any of that would relate to the income of the drivers especially on a per hour basis.

But since you brought it up it’s not true .
I have driven literally thousands of individual trucks that did not have any of those numbers. No ifta no dot .


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> I often engage with others that disagree with me. Ask around.


 Lol yeah I can testify to that. 
The hard part of a good conversation is to disagree without being disagreeable. 
I do wish I was better at it


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> Many entry level nurses in the Columbus area are Somalian. Americans can't afford the classes for nursing school. The Somalian immigrants get free tuition.


Really ?
Could you explain or link that program? I have friends who would be interested.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Each of you might want to invest in a small goat herd. You could have almost the same quality of interaction.


 I have a herd I’d like to get rid of.
And best of all it’s guaranteed to stay small


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol yeah I can testify to that.
> The hard part of a good conversation is to disagree without being disagreeable.
> I do wish I was better at it


It seems almost impossible to disagree digitally without escalation, and a loss of civil tone.

That is why you cannot equate internet dialogue, with human interaction.

I have traveled the world, and met people that had many different perspectives, and things always stayed civil, even when alcohol is involved.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> I
> 
> .Reagan came along, deregulated trucking, and 'Capitalism' took over.
> Large companies would underbid the Owner/Operators, taking contracts.....


I only read the first page of this thread, then skipped to the last, and I see it's deteriorated to the usual _non sequitur_ & _ad hominem_ arguments (I know Latin. I wanted to be a priest until I found out "nun" was actually spelled "n-o-n-e.")

Free market capitalism is not dead, as JeepHammer illustrates with the quote above. That's how capitalism works: survival of the fittest, Inefficient, small operations tend to lose out to the economy of scale. Same thing allowed Ford to put so many hand-builders of cars out of business, or why family dairy farms will soon be a thing of the past....The owner/operator truck driver could scrape by driving 80 hr weeks and was screwed if he broke down just once. The big boys made it up on volume. They had another truck ready to rescue a load if there was a major break down in one.

Socialism would keep the small guy in business, creating a bigger financial burden to rate and tax payers.

BTW- Jeep- mentions the apparent iniquity of the DOT 6 pg physical compared to the FAA 2 pager: that's sleazy govt intervention in operation. Prior to ObummerCare, any licensed MD could do a simple exam for a truck driver. But the AC established complex physicals that could only be performed by "specially trained" docs. All the paperwork involved made it economically impractical for a solo doc to comply. Large "group practices" were formed solely to do these PEs. A fine example of Crony Capitalism.

The main problem with unbridled capitalism is the wide swings in the business cycle it engenders. Marx pointed that out 180 yrs ago. Factory owners would squeeze as much production as possible out of the workers for a few months, build up an inventory of stock, then lay them off for a few weeks. That saved them money in wages, but they lost sales when people were out of work I'm simplifying things here, but you get the picture....

Govt regs are supposed to even out those wide swings. It seems to have worked once Reagan got rid of the stupid regs. We've had no major recessions (compared to earlier ones) since 1980. (The BigOne in '07 is directly attributed to unwise gov intervention in the housing market.)


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

JeepHammer said:


> The American public was sold bold faced lies by an actor 40 years ago...
> That guy was supported & financed by big global conglomerate companies to do exactly what he did.
> Keep in mind his big ideas bankrupted California before he got elected president, before that, he was second banana to a monkey actor...
> 
> ...


My wages were cut in half. I was a machine shop worker at that time. Everything went to the top companies. Very sad time in my earning years. That was the big turning point for American small business owners and trade workers , etc. At that time when we started trading with China Most trade workers said in 40 years China will have it all. It didn't take 40 years.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Our free market began to dissipate long before Reagan. As did our middle class. Go on back to FDR and his "new deal" which was nothing new, just a repainted model of Karl Marx's ignorant schemes.


You mean the same FDR that pulled the country through the great depression, pulled the country through wars with fascists, Imperial Japan on three fronts, that's the guy you just called a communist?

Since I wasn't around when the great depression happened I didn't see it with my own eyes like watching Reagan dismantle any chance of a free market to survive, I have to default to history books...
With the fall of the Russian Empire, the idea of Communism caught on pretty well in depression era US,



> During the Great Depression in the United States, many Americans became disillusioned with *CAPITALISM* and some found communist ideology appealing. Others were attracted by the visible activism of American Communists on behalf of a wide range of social and economic causes, including the rights of African Americans, workers and the unemployed. Still others, alarmed by the rise of the Franquists in Spain and the Nazis in Germany, admired the Soviet Union's early and staunch opposition to fascism. The membership of the Communist Party swelled from 7,500 at the start of the decade to 55,000 by its end.


Much of the 'New Deal' you apparently don't care for put millions of Americans back into wage earning jobs and helped head off the growing Communist agenda in the US.
Desperate, hungry people will will grasp at anything that might pull them out of destitution...

FDR has seen the Communists revloutions in Spain & Russia, the rise of fascism in Europe, and did what he needed to head those movements off in the USA.

Communist infiltration focused on labor unions in the US, the idea of laborers organizing was greatly boosted by Karl Marx, but most Americans simply wouldn't become hard core Communists simply because they wouldn't abandon the freedoms under the Constitution or Free Market ideals.
In 1948 the Communists were expelled from labor unions entirely, a product of FDR's anti-Communist efforts, and a boom jobs market rebuilding Europe after WWII.



> Communists' scientific understanding of the nature of class struggle enables them to be the most effective organizers, a benefit he [WHO IS "HE"?] called the "Communist plus". When Communists were expelled from the AFL–CIO in 1948, organized labor's influence on economic and political development stagnated and later plummeted.


Labor unions, and the extraordinary and unique circumstances of rebuilding Europe after WWII built the "Economic Middle Class" in North America, war production facilities being state of the art (circa 1945), and a well organized work force left trained from WWII, combined with labor unions to negotiate worker compensation is what created the Economic Middle Class in North America, something the world had never seen before.

Reagan saw the labor unions as 'Communists', and backed by Capitalists, set out to crush labor unions, and he did exactly that.
Reagan agenda was to 'Fight Communists', and the Capitalists agenda was to aquire the wealth the Economic Middle Class had acquired.



> Follow it forward to present day. Here we are.


The Capitalists agenda succeeded, and is progressing nicely to this day, with no opposition from labor unions, virtually unrestricted financial laws, wealth moves to the top 1% as well as it did before labor unions, and since there isn't the economic boom rebuilding an entire continent after a world war, there isn't going to be the bumper sticker slogan "Make America Great Again".

The wealth acquired by the economic middle class has all mostly returned to the top 1%, again a success by Capitalists.

Considering the MAGA hats and bumper stickers were made in CHINA, I find poetic justice in pointing out humans don't have a time machine, and the economic opportunities found post WWII can't be reproduced.
Europe isn't in rubble, Asia is industrialized, and Capitalists refuse to allow the US to rebuild it's dominance in manufacturing capabilities to keep the threat of organized labor to minimum.
By spreading labor out globally, even if the technology was developed in the US, the manufacturing is sent abroad.

While Capitalists keep us scared, confused, distracted & divided with military, religious, terrorists, etc in the news constantly,
They do business with Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, while YOUR mindset is distracted, the Capitalists mindset is solely on MONEY, and they don't care about anything else.
It's a total lack of ethics, war is money, hunger is money, civil unrest is money, water shortages is money, pollution is money, it's all about the money... That's why it's called 'Capitalism', a religion of money, it's in the name.
Even the bible warns you to beware the money changers...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple



> Maybe when we are all starving, being lined up to be shot so we fall forward into mass graves someone will see what went wrong.


I bet you are just a TON OF FUN at parties. 
It seems we have a Nihilist in our group...

The only ones that will get shot are labor union members in the event workers ever wake up again. That's historical facts, union busters paid for by Capitalist companies machine gunning union workers that were on strike.
When you ignore history, it tends to repeat itself...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Communist_Party_USA


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

In general, miserable jobs. You get treated like dirt, and burnout factor is HUGE.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

101pigs said:


> My wages were cut in half. I was a machine shop worker at that time. Everything went to the top companies. Very sad time in my earning years. That was the big turning point for American small business owners and trade workers , etc. At that time when we started trading with China Most trade workers said in 40 years China will have it all. It didn't take 40 years.


I hear you!
You kind of had to be there to understand what happened, but of course we didn't actually know what was actually happening until it was over...

Nixon got talked into taking the US off the gold standard so they could print currency to pay off the Viet Nam war, a 'Short Cut' whispered into his ear that came from capitalists as part of a plan...
Inflation shot to the moon, most of these guys can't even imagine what it was like to try and pay a loan with 21% interest rates!
Jimmy Carter got into office, set to cost cutting to get the government spending and economy under control and the capitalists didn't like that! How dare he cut into their INTEREST PROFITS,
And he signed treaties with Russia to limit nuclear weapons, got us out of the chemical & biological weapons business entirely, and in doing so reduced the profits to the HUGE weapons contractors... He simply had to go.

Along comes Ronnie Rayguns, and capitalists found the perfect front man, run an oil man & former CIA director with him, perfect combo for capitalists, fusion of capitalists & government.

Of course we didn't know until years later that president ELECT (not even president) was making secret HIGH TECH arms deals with Iran, a terrorist nation at the time, and the arms deals were against US federal law, and was a war crime in world courts... Supplying Iran with the latest high tech that immidately got passed to the USSR... and giving away the hard won advances in weapons technology the US taxpayer spent billions creating...

Then Reagan & Bush supplied chemical & biological warefare to Iraq, propped up Saddam Insane to fight a proxy war with Iran, all the while supplying BOTH sides.
Lets not forget a couple things about the chemical & biological weapons production equipment sold to Iraq,
Under US treaty, the sale was illegal by US law, and the equipment & assistance provided by the US to get it up and running was against treaties with allies,
And it was considered a war crime in world courts/Hague accords/Genevia Convention.

Then Reagan mistook a military (somewhat socialist) dictatorship in Nicaragua for communists, thought those 'Communists' were too close to the US possession of the Panama Canal (70 miles), and formed the illegal, stateless 'Contra' army to go combat 'Communists' that weren't communists and weren't a threat to US interests.
Like that wasn't bad enough when the arms sale money from Iran & Iraq ran out, the CIA raised money by helping drug smugglers import drugs into the US.
Congress FINALLY investigated that and released the findings on CIA drug dealing, finding the CIA did in fact run drugs, on a Friday night, the same week the news was buzzing about Monica Lewinsky's stained blue dress, and by Monday the story fell off the news cycle.

The other part of that is the US had to go in and bomb Iraq's chemical and biological weapons production out of existance in 89-90...
The reason inspectors didn't find anything between first and second wars in Iraq was GHW Bush knew EXACTLY where the facilities were since the US installed and facilitated production a scant 7 years earlier...

And the Contras no longer funded by the US when the Iran/Contra thing went public, went to work for drug cartels, which the US had to battle, and then they moved to actual communists when FARC & FNLM inherited the drug cartels.
Exactly what the muddle minded thinking from the White House was trying to prevent they caused, a well funded hard core communist army in central/South America.

Afghanistan went sideways, the soviets invaded in '79, the US supported the Islamic Fundamentalist, including Ben-laden, but when the soviets withdrew in '89, GHW Bush dropped Afghanistan like a hot rock, no promised support, and the Taliban Islamic fundamentalists took over, and in 2001 the US had to deal with the same fighters the US trained, armed & equipped.
The very same tactics the US trained Afghans to use against the soviets work equally as well against any standing military, including US forces...
Which the US military BEGGED the White House NOT to let the insurgency tactics out of the bag in the Middle East, just to have it fall on deaf ears...

Why there is a cult of 'Reaganites' is beyond me.
The horrible decisions that were foreseeable well in advance is incredible, and the fallout of the Reagan/Bush administration has been devastating and is ongoing 40 years later.

From ignoring HIV/AIDS and letting it become an epidemic, to importing drugs that lead to the crack epidemic, to creating the Taliban & ISIS, to complete corruption of the US government to to the collapse of the economic middle class,
And yet, people still pray at the Reagan cult of personally church, and I don't understand it at all other than people still do the same for Stalin, Hitler, Charles Manson, for some unknown to me reason.

I was in the military from '79-'95, and we didn't have a clue what was going to happen next...
Brushfire wars all over central & North Africa, Central America was a mess, the same guy in Nicaragua was a 'Contra' ally, across the line on a map he was a 'Rebel' and we were supposed to shoot at him, we were supposed to support the dictators in el-Salvador, but shoot at the dictator in Nicaragua, yet support the dictator in Chile...
Iraq is an ally, no, wait, Iraq is an enemy, Panama is an ally, no, wait, Panama is an enemy...

We were so glad when Clinton took over and we were back to shooting at genocidal maniacs and war lords starving entire nations to death...


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

_Luckily i never experienced anything bad with US cops yet...all very nice people (*with oddly the same haircut*)_

I wish I could upvote this 1000 times.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Then Reagan & Bush supplied chemical & biological warefare to Iraq, propped up Saddam Insane to fight a proxy war with Iran, all the while supplying BOTH sides.
> Lets not forget a couple things about the chemical & biological weapons production equipment sold to Iran,
> Under US treaty, the sale was illegal by US law, and the equipment & assistance provided by the US to get it up and running was against treaties with allies,
> And it was considered a war crime in world courts/Hague accords/Genevia Convention.
> ...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

colourfastt said:


> View attachment 79590


That's not going to soak in...
'Ultra Conservatives' are a religion, praying at an alter of a fictional past, not a political party.
The political party is Capitalism wrapping itself up in the false flags of religion and patriotism, when all they actually worship is currency and greed.

Capitalism was fairly under control during Eisenhower's adminstration, and the Free Market booming.

The last 'Republican' president that shouldn't have gone to jail was Eisenhower, which oddly enough supported labor unions, and warned the US population about what he called the 'Military-Industrial Complex', the last bastion of pure Capitalism greed, and warned the population that if we didn't watch close the Capitalists would drag us into war simply for the profits involved and no regard for the lives lost.

He was correct...

He didn't foresee the much larger agenda and underestimated the greed of Capitalists, his life long training being in military history.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JeepHammer said:


> Capitalism was fairly under control during Eisenhower's adminstration, and the Free Market booming.
> 
> The last 'Republican' president that shouldn't have gone to jail was Eisenhower, which oddly enough supported labor unions, and warned the US population about what he called the 'Military-Industrial Complex', the last bastion of pure Capitalism greed, and warned the population that if we didn't watch close the Capitalists would drag us into war simply for the profits involved and no regard for the lives lost.
> He didn't foresee the much larger agenda and underestimated the greed of Capitalists, his life long training being in military history.
> ...


 Not to mention a 90%. Top tax rate.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Not to mention a 90%. Top tax rate.


Clarify that,
A 90% tax rate on un-earned 'Investment' income.
If the un-earned 'Investment' income was reinvested in business, the tax rate was zero.

'Wealth' was actual property, production facilities, resources instead of zeros on a foreign bank statement for trust fund brats to brag about...

When the tax man came, the ultra wealthy built schools, libraries, hospitals, public service facilities which were all tax breaks for the top 1%, build a school you get to keep the same amount you spent on that school, lowering the tax rate to 50%.

Read the history of the Carnegie Library system if you have an interest in unvarnished history pre WWII.

The biggest private medical research grant foundation in the world was a tax dodge by Howard Hughes, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) was set up as a tax dodge, but old Howard died before he could get his money back out, so that wealth is doing some good.

On the other side of that, the Kennedy's started their own bank/capital investment group with one customer, the direct decendants of Joe Kennedy. 
If you had/have enough political connections and enough money, no taxation laws apply to you because you simply have the law changed, which is exactly what Joe Kennedy did.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JeepHammer said:


> Clarify that,
> A 90% tax rate on un-earned 'Investment' income.
> If the un-earned 'Investment' income was reinvested in business, the tax rate was zero.
> 
> ...


Nope during the Eisenhower administration 90% was the top income tax no during the Eisenhower administration 90% was the top income tax rate. 
Not a specific investment return tax.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope during the Eisenhower administration 90% was the top income tax no during the Eisenhower administration 90% was the top income tax rate.
> Not a specific investment return tax.


I knew un-earned investment income had a flat 90% tax rate,

Where did the top income tax reach 90% in 1950's dollars?

That might have been the reason for the lavish expense accounts for executives back then, untaxed compensation that turned into 'Golden Parachutes' for current top end executives.

I'm old enough to remember the frenzied end of year equipment buying sprees to avoid taxes, most businesses were owner/operator around here back when we had a Free Market.
The new cars/trucks were always released after the third quarter, and I can remember the almost holiday trips to the dealerships and farm/industrial equipment places to see what the new model line had brought...
And both grandpas complaining about snow on the brand new equipment 

I was always up for the trips, I scored big time in hats, shirts, pens & pencils, pocket knives, lighters, base balls & bats, basket balls, footballs, fishing equipment, anything and everything under the sun was given away to entice the purchases, there was always free 'Junk' food, a great time to be a kid! 

... Before you discovered girls, taxes, bills, everything that makes you financially challenged...


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Wow. This thread is like listening to the conversation at the neighborhood bar. The longer it goes on, the drunker everyone gets. Unbelievable distortions of history.

FDR-- Keynesian economics. His programs delayed recovery from the Depression. If it weren't for WWII providing full employment, we'd still be in it with socialist programs. Empirical evidence of the failure of the Keynesian philosophy abounds, as does evidence of the success of Friedman's economics. Theory is one thing. The Real World is another.

Unions--communist organizations run by the Mafia. What could go wrong?

For those lamenting the unrewarding hours of working for someone else probably never experienced the sleepless nights of owning a small business. Life is tough, no matter how you live it.

China- the poster child for Globalism: American elite love the profit picture when goods are manufactured by 50 cent an hour laborers. Fed Gov policy from Nixon on was to throw the Chinese a fish and we would win their favor and lessen their threat. Unintended consequences--globalism. ..And now they're Frankenstein's Monster running amok and killing Frankenstein. (or is it SHTEEN!..Franken-SHTEEN! What great knockers!)


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

doc- said:


> Wow. This thread is like listening to the conversation at the neighborhood bar. The longer it goes on, the drunker everyone gets. Unbelievable distortions of history.
> ..And now they're Frankenstein's Monster running amok and killing Frankenstein. (or is it SHTEEN!..Franken-SHTEEN! What great knockers!)


Yes, the posts are sounding a little inebriated. I think most folks can see thru the muck though.
Now in other news...


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> If you are talking in the US,
> Reagan deregulation of interstate commerce and union busting killed trucking.
> Over 80% of interstate trucks were Owner/Operator in the 80s, the owner operated the truck.
> Interstate rates were guaranteed, regulated by the governmemt, mostly for one reason, taxes.
> ...


Please describe how you can have a free market without capitalism. 
How deregulation moved an industry away from a free market?
Are you certain that you are aware of the definition of the words that you use?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro, I think you already know the answer to your last question.
I think he may have posted that Jimmy Carter was about to fix everything when Reagan came in and blew it all up.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> Hiro, I think you already know the answer to your last question.
> I think he may have posted that Jimmy Carter was about to fix everything when Reagan came in and blew it all up.


I am fairly confident had Jimmy got reelected, there would be a hammer and sickle flying over the Capitol today.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I think using the term "Trickle Down Economics" would be considered baiting.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I don't have it me to be just a capitalist. There are many facets to being a complete person. I am glad, though fictional in this representation, there really are people like this in the economy today:


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

I don't think the free market is broken. These days I think people's expectations, their sense of reality is more likely to be broken than anything else.

If I go into a store and want to exchange my money for some goods, I can still do so. If I don't like the price, I walk away. Sounds like a good system.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> You mean the same FDR that pulled the country through the great depression,
> 
> Desperate, hungry people will will grasp at anything that might pull them out of destitution...
> 
> ...


yep, the FDR that threw our constitution in the toilet and forced our country to endure many years of economic depression with his Marxist policies. 

Yes again, poor and hungry people will even give up ther freedom easily looking for a handout. FDR knew this all too well, which is why he and his followers insist upon keeping as many as possible broke, poor, hungry, and dependent upon government handouts. That way they get total control. 

Yep, again, against all odds the freedom to be all a person wants to be... To be a successful entrepreneur, has survived. My only question is.... For how long?

I enjoy myself at parties, host more than a few myself. Everyone who attends our parties do as well. Lots of great food, live music, swimming in our swimming hole, target shooting, fireworks, campfires, just free people excericizing their God given freedoms to do as we durn well please, when we want, where we want, how we want without the gummit interfering. You should stop in sometime, sit a spell, enjoy life the way it should be for everyone.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JeepHammer said:


> I knew un-earned investment income had a flat 90% tax rate,
> 
> Where did the top income tax reach 90% in 1950's dollars?
> 
> ...


 It’s a bit fuzzy but I think it was during Ike’s administration .


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Remarkable how people rewrite history!

Now FDR is responsible for the 1929 stock market crash (not the actual capitalists running show),
AND
FDR is responsible for somehow controlling weather and creating the Dust Bowl!

All this before he was President, took over as President (March 1933 to April 1945), so according to the 'Hate All Democrats' Fake History bunch, FDR crashed the stock market/economy in 1929, then created the Dust Bowl, just so he could convert the country to communism...
This is there narratives, which they just put into print!



> First, American firms earned record profits during the 1920s and reinvested much of these funds into expansion. By 1929, companies had expanded to the bubble point. Workers could no longer continue to fuel further expansion, so a slowdown was inevitable. While corporate profits, skyrocketed, wages increased incrementally, which widened the distribution of wealth.
> The richest one percent of Americans owned over a third of all American assets. Such wealth concentrated in the hands of a few limits economic growth.


What caused the Great Depression was capitalism greed, plain & simple...
The only thing that's changed is the top 1% of 'Capitalists' have acquired about 2/3 of all wealth...

Now, if your history DOESN'T come from a propaganda web site/troll mill...

The American Dust Bowl lasted from 1930 to 1936, was a result of poor farming methods, an unusually brutal drought, and wind.
It gutted the the US 'Grain Belt', or 'Bread Basket', west of the Rockies, from Texas north into Canada, and dust storms rolled east as far as New York City & Boston.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl










*And some of the guys here *Think* ONE MAN with a (fictional) 'Weather Dominator' tried to convert America to communism...
(I think they are confusing G.I. Joe with FDR)*


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Remarkable how people rewrite history!
> 
> Now FDR is responsible for the 1929 stock market crash (not the actual capitalists running show),
> AND
> ...


The Dust Bowl was created by government intervention/subsidies....you study up.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

georger said:


> I don't think the free market is broken. These days I think people's expectations, their sense of reality is more likely to be broken than anything else.
> 
> If I go into a store and want to exchange my money for some goods, I can still do so. If I don't like the price, I walk away. Sounds like a good system.


That is the essence of a functional economy. Economies get distorted by government intervention either by currency manipulation or regulation. The free exchange of goods by means of a stable currency foster economic freedom and growth. When the "free exchange" is regulated away or the currency is manipulated it leads to distortions and chaos.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mostly I have been yawning at this thread but I do have one question to ask if anyone has an answer. 

Greed....What is the difference when you put a qualifier in the front of it. Capitalist greed, Socialist greed, Communistic greed. Imperialist greed. 

What's the difference? Is there one? If we do away with capitalism will all greed go away? 

Ok that was three questions but pick one or all I don't care.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Hiro said:


> The Dust Bowl was created by government intervention/subsidies....you study up.


I have...
I know the word 'Sustainable' sets some of the far right off, but it can't be helped.

The drought and wind storms, WEATHER, (nature, act of 'god', what ever you want to call it) which is unusual but does run in cycles in the effected areas, which were HUGE, Texas into Canada, Rockey Mountains to the Mississippi River.

Unsustainable farming methods were used by uneducated farmers,
Plowed east-west that allowed wind to scour away top soil,
No soil erosion grass area breaks,
No water supply or system in place to irrigate during drought, etc.

Even after the dust bowl, farmers had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new ways to prevent another dust bowl... Repeating same mistakes.
The agency that did the education was the US Government.

Production to feed WWI troops saw prices skyrocket so farmers plowed and planted EVERYTHING they could, breaking land (acreage) that had never seen a plow got turned under in record numbers.
Economic growth after WWI saw farmers overlooked, grain prices dropped, and with the dust bowl agriculture couldn't help in the boot strap recovery from the grass roots that pulls us out of every capitalism created downturn.

Subsidies were created to compensate farmers for keeping land in reserve when need exceeded supply, which is typically in war time, as a matter of national defense.
In return for subsidies farmers agreed to a fixed price for production during times of war. (Price freezing)
Free Market dictated price in peace time, until the capitalists got into things, monopolized the transportation of farm production, and started price fixing. 
Corporate farms collect subsidies for land they DON'T plant and never have, and are exempt from price fixing in the event of national emergency.

The part that REALLY chaps me raw, there is no restrictions on CHINA buying up farms, operating them for subsidies, breaking them up and selling for 'Real Estate'.
Farm ground lost is gone for our lifetime.

If you want to go crazy about 'Government' and Subsidies then at least go crazy at the correct government...

https://www.newsweek.com/us-farmland-held-foreign-investors-doubled-decade-1436971
https://newfoodeconomy.org/foreign-owned-farmland-increase-food-security-legislation/
https://www.motherjones.com/food/2017/08/foreign-investors-are-snapping-up-us-farms/


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> Mostly I have been yawning at this thread but I do have one question to ask if anyone has an answer.
> 
> Greed....What is the difference when you put a qualifier in the front of it. Capitalist greed, Socialist greed, Communistic greed. Imperialist greed.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see some of the answers...then again maybe not.
The ideologues will surely find away to separate their greed from the others.
The real answer is there is no difference, so just doing away with capitalism won't make it go away.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> Greed....What is the difference


There's no difference.
There are only people doing the things people do.

Some of them like to pretend they are doing something "better", but they are only fooling themselves for the most part.

They try to fool others much of the time.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ?
> Could you explain or link that program? I have friends who would be interested.


https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/fafsa

There are other programs available, but this is the biggest one. If I was still working with the people I worked with that used the programs I would give you all the info. The colleges offer assistance depending on course of study and some programs are weighted heavily toward certain groups. Bilingual people are in more demand than people who speak only English since there is such a large Somalian population here.

One thing that factors heavily in favor of Somalians as opposed to Americans is really the American students fault. Somalian families believe strongly in their children getting a good education and good study habits take precedence over most other activities. Poor grades bring disgrace to the entire family and students get together to actually study and help each other. If they don't understand their lessons they ask for help instead of cheating on tests or copying another's homework.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Mostly I have been yawning at this thread but I do have one question to ask if anyone has an answer.
> 
> Greed....What is the difference when you put a qualifier in the front of it. Capitalist greed, Socialist greed, Communistic greed. Imperialist greed.
> 
> ...


And someone drills down to bedrock...

The bible warns about greed,
Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins,
Therefore you can't be a 'Good Christian' and a greedy Capitalist at the same time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple

The longest verse in the Quran is on borrowing & lending,
And the Quran also covers charity & debt forgiveness or you don't get into 'heaven'.

Without religion involved, it's ethics.
"If you do well, do good" --Ben Franklin

You simply don't do anything that deliberately hurts anyone, and you inadvertently hurt someone you attempt to make reasonable compensation.

In business, it's making fair compensation, not as much as you can grab or what the market will bear.
Henry Ford paid 5 times the standard labor rate, the early 1900s version of profit sharing.
His reasoning was the guys building the automobile should be able to afford that automobile, and the other necessities in life.
Fair compensation kept the cream of the crop of workers, and ensured innovation in the corporation.

The 'Capitalism' business model is extract the maximum amount of production from workers while paying them the least wages, which explains the turnover in 'Minimum Wage' jobs.

Before minimum wages and government intervention in 'Capitalism', workers weren't even paid in US currency a lot of the time,
The company 'Script' or 'Chits' were only good for products in the company store for goods at inflated rates.

The big capitol business in that time period were coal mining, iron ore mining, and iron ore smelting into pig iron, and later steel.
The original 'Red Neck' were the red bandanas worn by miners during the labor strikes demanding clean air in the mine shafts so they could breathe and to evacuate explosive gasses, ceilings blocked up so the mine didn't collapse, dust control so coal dust didn't explode, and to get paid in US currency so they could buy at lower prices outside of the company store.

Keep in mind children (mostly boys) 7 years or older were required to work in the mines or as 'Breaker Boys' (breaking large chunks into small 'Stoker' chunks) if they lived on the coal mine property, which most did because coal companies bought up land for miles around not knowing which way the coal seam would run.

Breaker Boys circa 1911










The 'Capitalism' doctrine owners sent in union busting crews with machine guns...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...s-epicenter-20th-century-mine-wars-180963026/

Things weren't any better in cities, iron producers had 'Breaker Boys' also,
Textile mills paid such low wages under the 'Capitalism' doctrine children had to be sent to work at the same age so the family could eat.
Housing close to the jobs was company owned, ramshackle, rat infested buildings with tiny apartments with excessive rent to extract the currency the companies had to pay the workers in US currency.

The current generation can't imagine what conditions were like, and since actual history isn't taught, or is ignored for 'Alternative History' that blames things on a particular race, religion, or the government, it's all due to the 'Capitalism' agenda, worshipping the dollar bill above all else.

-------------

Switch gears here and take into account brain science.

The difference between Sociopaths and Psychopaths is a fine line, but needs to be pointed defined.
Sociopaths are directed by society, nature vs. nurture.
The interactions with others makes Sociopaths.
Beat a child, deprive a child of basics, domineer the child and that child can become a sociopath, they LEARN to become sociopathic.
Kids raised from day one to take over large companies are conditioned into becoming 'Capitalism' sociopaths, from parents to house staff, to all the 'Correct' schools they are taught/shaped/molded into sociopaths that ignore everyone else's pain and suffering to aquire wealth.
If kids are beaten or abused they often become the abuser.

Prue psychopaths are born or made through brain injury.
It's simply a brain defect that keeps them from empathy and keeps them from connecting actions with consciences.

Every single study of sociopaths & psychopaths finds certain jobs they function in...
Bankers/Investment brokers,
Con men/sales men
Surgeons in particular and doctors in general, but this is medical training to detach from patients, and the prestige being a medical doctor brings means they are almost always sociopaths instead of psychopaths.
Politicians & government workers are always high on the lists,
Police are always high on the lists, leaning towards psychopaths.
TV news anchors/personalities made a surprising surprising jump to the top 10, from almost none to top ten between 1990s & the most current studies.

https://www.bustle.com/p/9-jobs-sociopaths-are-most-likely-to-have-12982458
https://www.businessinsider.com/professions-with-the-most-psychopaths
https://www.urbo.com/content/professions-that-have-the-most-psychopaths/
https://time.com/32647/which-professions-have-the-most-psychopaths-the-fewest/
https://www.cbc.ca/doczone/m/features/psychopaths-top-10-and-bottom-10-professions
https://www.mic.com/articles/44423/10-professions-that-attract-the-most-sociopaths

---------------

On the practical side,
Just don't be a jerk, treat employees well, don't dump pollution, don't screw the public.
No one is saying you can't make a profit (without profit there is no business) and you can't be comfortable...
"Moderation In All Things"

Capitalism dictates you make the cheapest, most shoddy product and sell it for what the market will bear for maximum profits. (False 'Consumer'/'Disposable' economy)
Free Market dictates you produce a well made product, charge a reasonable markup over cost of production (and transport if necessary). This is the actual hard economy, goods become 'Durable' and more efficient.

Capitalist dogma is to pay the least amount of wages to workers and extract maximum work load.
There is a song about this, company demanding at least 16 tons of production in a mine, didn't matter if it was coal, iron ore, hard rock or whatever they ran into or you got paid nothing at all for that days work.
Free Market is you pay the workers a reasonable, living wage commensurate with work production & skill level, and you don't demand excessive, unrealistic quotas.

The natural order of business is, build a better product, build a brand name, and survive in the business world.
The Capitalists version is to undersell competition until that competition is gone, then jack up price to whatever the market will bear.
Case in point, Epi-Pins for severe, life threatening allergic reactions, from $35 to $300 to $600 in about 3 years.
Same medication in the pen, one capitalistic company bought up all the patents for the injector and wouldn't licence those patents.
They swapped executives with FDA to keep any new injectors from being approved,
And they sued the life out of any company that built an injector claiming they infringed on the patents, no matter if they did or not.
Make an injector and it was a several million dollar and years long legal crap fight.

Insulin is going through the same thing right now,
It's not the insulin itself, it's the manufacturing process used to make it, and the delivery injectors, a single company is suing anyone & everyone out of existence over patents it's very questionable if they own or not.

It's a question of ethics,
When laws got changed in the 80s, a crap ton of private business with stock holders, operating in the black, growing, were victim to 'Raiding'.
A Capitalism investment would creep in, get a controlling interest, and break up the company for assets,
In particular big fat pension funds for workers, but also land & equipment.
They had no interest in operating the business, no interest in the workers, no interest in anything but throwing people out on the street and stealing the retirement money.

Ben Franklin was a 'Billionaire' by today's standards.
The Franklin stove was an order of magnitude better than anything else on the market, and it was made to the highest standards, so it sold like hotcakes.
That and other inventions made him a large fortune...

He had ethics,
"If you do well, do good"
He saw the plagues on the east coast, and financed the Boston sewer system, built so well it's still used to this day.
After seeing lightening burn down so many homes & barns, he had lightening rod kits manufactured, and sold them at his cost, no profit at all,
Further more, he patented the lightening rod and would give away rights to any company that would build to his specifications, foregoing all profits for himself, the manufacturer could make their profits.

It's a question of ethics, and you have to decide which side you come down on.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/fafsa
> 
> There are other programs available, but this is the biggest one. If I was still working with the people I worked with that used the programs I would give you all the info. The colleges offer assistance depending on course of study and some programs are weighted heavily toward certain groups. Bilingual people are in more demand than people who speak only English since there is such a large Somalian population here.
> 
> One thing that factors heavily in favor of Somalians as opposed to Americans is really the American students fault. Somalian families believe strongly in their children getting a good education and good study habits take precedence over most other activities. Poor grades bring disgrace to the entire family and students get together to actually study and help each other. If they don't understand their lessons they ask for help instead of cheating on tests or copying another's homework.


Fasfa is federal aid and is available to all LEGAL US citizens.
That includes legal immigrants, which are by definition US citizens.

Fasfa uses a formula of resources available and commercial student aid available, and pays a percentage of student debt, either through loans or grants.

Federal student aid programs have never been available to undocumented immigrants, a requirement of application is documentation of being a US citizen.

Some STATES have aid programs that will provide funding for undocumented immigrants,
And when the student loan market went privatized, they don't ask for documentation.

How does this connect to free market?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Well gee, the first post talked about the shortages in the nursing and truck driving sectors.
Most Somalians are either citizens or legal immigrants.
Fafsa does not offer aid for student debt, it offers aid to pay forthcoming college expenses. Debt is from past expenses.
I never said the Somalian girls I worked with were "undocumented".
Fafsa also offers aid to eligible noncitizens.

This is the information for international students;
https://www.edupass.org/finaid/fafsa/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Fasfa is federal aid and is available to all LEGAL US citizens.
> That includes legal immigrants, which are by definition US citizens.


No, legal immigrants are not "by definition US citizens".
If you had taken 15 seconds to read as far as the second sentence, you'd have seen it says:



> There’s good news and bad news. Here’s the bad news: the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) is used by U.S. citizens *and permanent residents* to apply for financial aid from federal and state governments.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> And someone drills down to bedrock...
> 
> The bible warns about greed,
> Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins,
> ...


I broke down to bedrock and you shot to the Moon. Capitalism on the bare bones does not call for what you are saying it does. In fact Ben Franklin used capitalism to make his stoves and lightning rods. So when he used it it was good but since the 80s it's not?

In communist Russia, the state paid for windows by the inch to window manufactures. Since they got paid by the inch they made the glass so thin it would break in sub zero weather. The state in it's infinite wisdom "fixed" the problem by paying by the pound. Then the windows were so think and heavy you couldn't even see through them. 

You can't stop a capitalist no matter what you do. You are a capitalist when you choose to go off grid and make your own power or when you sell something from your welding shop. Capitalism isn't the problem. It's greed.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Greed at the risk of the safety of your employees or at the expense of the customer is never a good thing. It's because of the greedy corporations that most regulations were put in place.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> I broke down to bedrock and you shot to the Moon.


Yes I did.
I was just so amazed someone asked the question in this bunch I got carried away.



> Capitalism on the bare bones does not call for what you are saying it does. In fact Ben Franklin used capitalism to make his stoves and lightning rods. So when he used it it was good but since the 80s it's not?


*Ben Franklin didn't use 'Capitalism' models at all.
Ben Franklin was fully aware of 'Imperial' economics, everything flows up to the King.*
The entire point of the new country, the USA, was that every man could benefit from his labor, that profit from work product didn't flow up to a 'King' at the top.
There is a reason this country was so unique when it formed, no king, no overlords forcing work product to the top...

What you can't drill through heads that don't have an education in actual history, the KING owned the land, the people, everything.
Raw materials, timber, ore, everything belonged to the King, the king laid down laws that no processing into finished good happen in the Colonies, everything got shipped off someplace else to be processed into finished products, then the people in the Colonies had to pay tariffs to get those products.
Franklin's stove wouldn't have been 'His' a few years earlier, manufacturing would have been done someplace in the UK, no one in the US would have made anything from it, and if you wanted one you would have had to pay excessive prices for mineral transport to the UK, transport of finished product from UK, and a hefty tariff as tribute the the King, putting it well outside the cost range of 99% of the population.

Franklin observed, researched and invented a stove that was 10 times more efficient that other stoves, a 1,000 times more efficient than a fire place...
He took his designs to a foundry and the they gave him a price per unit where they made a reasonable profit, and the stoves were made.

Franklin charged a reasonable profit for himself, and the stoves caught on quickly.
They were reasonable priced, well made, efficient, and when you can reduce wood cutting by 90%, fondly though of by owners.

When supply couldn't keep up with demand, he didn't gouge the public, simply had more foundries make them.

The foundry got paid, which the coal miners got paid, the iron ore suppliers got paid, the workers got paid, Franklin got paid, the cost per unit stayed down, and Franklin made money over time.

When he realized how much the stoves (and other inventions) had made, 
He made an ETHICAL decision about when 'Enough' was 'Enough', and spent the rest on public services, a sewer system in Boston, endowing education, etc.



> In communist Russia, the state paid for windows by the inch to window manufactures. Since they got paid by the inch they made the glass so thin it would break in sub zero weather. The state in it's infinite wisdom "fixed" the problem by paying by the pound. Then the windows were so think and heavy you couldn't even see through them.


I find two big flaws with that story...
1. The state dictates what they want, and you supply it 'Or Else'.
2. The glass foundry would have been state owned, like all heavy industrial operations in communist Russia.



> You can't stop a capitalist no matter what you do.


No, you can't. There are just too many people willing to take advantage of others no matter if the others starve or die.
It's simply a question of ethics, drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cross it.



> You are a capitalist when you choose to go off grid and make your own power or when you sell something from your welding shop. Capitalism isn't the problem. It's greed.


I'm not a 'Capitalist', I compensate fairly (well above the local 'Average') for work product.
I don't deliberately pollute to increase profits.
I charge a reasonable price, covers equipment, people, facility, etc.
Anything above and beyond, I give out in profit sharing.
I'm crystal clear about profit & losses, who gets paid what and nobody gets gouged.
It's an ethics thing, no one has to guess what's going on, I keep good people, and their jobs are secure. 
The WORKERS decide if automated/specialized equipment will be faster/more efficient or manual production will be more efficient, the workers decide who they want to work with, if a person is carrying their weight or not.

I run it like a Free Market cooperative, not a 'Capitalist' dictatorship.
Everyone has full access to everything, knows the details of they want to, and has input on big purchases since that will have a direct impact on paychecks.

If there comes a day when we don't turn a profit, then we simply close the doors and I do something else.
That's the natural order of Free Market, no subsidizing, no price gouging the customers or to drive competition out of business.
We aren't big enough for 'Capitalist' to take notice of us, and it's privately owned, no hostile takeover threat. 
It's a niche in the market that makes a very reasonable living for us, and if you want a Free Market business, niches are what you have to find, and decide if you are greedy or if what you will make is 'Enough'. 
I'm nothing special, nobody in the grand scheme of things, neither are my people.
Somewhere around $65k a year (can run over $100k) plus benefits, family insurance being around $23k a year as an untaxed benefit, but they KNOW to maintain that they have to work, and they do. A co-operative...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> Greed at the risk of the safety of your employees or at the expense of the customer is never a good thing. It's because of the greedy corporations that most regulations were put in place.


Sure, it's common sense.
The "Blame Government" for everything are just lazy, it's a dogma that allows them to sit back and do something easy, like complain.

A $50 railing to keep workers from falling into an industrial grinder or mixer is $50 out of "Profits" for each grinder or mixer,
After all it's just a "Dead Peasant", and it's common for the employer to have 'Dead Peasant' insurance paid directly to the employer.
Instead of a $50 railing to keep you from dying, they collect thousands when you die...
You death has been 'Capitalized'...

https://news.wfsu.org/post/walmart-sued-collecting-life-insurance-employees


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Yes I did.
> I was just so amazed someone asked the question in this bunch I got carried away.
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps you missed it earlier when I asked. How can you have a free market without capitalism?


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Hiro said:


> Perhaps you missed it earlier when I asked. How can you have a free market without capitalism?


Ethics.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Ethics.


Whose?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Hiro said:


> Whose?


Since the owner sets the example, how about starting there...
Don't confuse wealth with Capitalism for a start.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, at it's simplest, a free market system is one based on the old principle of supply and demand without third party intervention. Hong Kong is an example of a market economy.
Capitalism involves corporations and business owners who control their product, which is also likely regulated and taxed/tariffed.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Hiro said:


> Whose?


Hopefully not _this_ guy's......


Hiro said:


> I don't have it me to be just a capitalist. There are many facets to being a complete person. I am glad, though fictional in this representation, there really are people like this in the economy today:


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Ethics.
No shortage of sociopaths & psychopaths that won't/can't admit they did wrong, and think the rules, regulations and laws don't apply to them.
Worship nothing but money & power, and they tend to gravitate into positions of authority, 
Politicians, banking/financial positions, lawyers, etc., do or say anything to aquire & concentrate power & wealth at the top.

Nothing new at all, from the oldest warlords, Kings, Emperors, the reason the USA decided to NOT have Kings or Emperors, to limit any one branch of government, to have a Constitution that guarantees basic rights.
Previous generations passed laws to keep the American people from being fleeced and treated like livestock, 90% tax rates on 'Capitalism' income, anti-monopoly laws, restrictions on not paying workers at all or in company script, limiting the size of banks to in state only, passed laws against poor trading & investment practices so rank & file worker savings couldn't be squandered...

All that went out the window with 'Trickle Down Economics'... And has continued to be rolled back since we have the same people in Congress for an average of 34 years with the same agenda.

40 years since Reagan, 40 years of shrinking economic middle class, 40 years of finance fraud & scandals, 40 years of concentrated propaganda wrapping the fleecing & fraud in the flag & religion and so many that can't (or won't) connect the dots.

Now all I can do is laugh.
I personally can't change it other than in my sphere of influence,
The rest I just have to laugh at since it's so obvious and entirely self inflicted.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

A fine example of the rule changes in the early 80s, the removal of "Fiduciary Responsibly" to the investors (the people in middle that got laws passed post 1929 stock market crash) is the current situation with 'Monex',

Not a bank, not even a brokerage firm, but a 'Holding' company that's allowed under the law to deal in 'Investments' and the bonds markets without SEC oversight.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_Monex

This company doesn't operate under the restrictions applied to banks, brokerage firm, or even international laws, and some have long pointed out it's a money laundering service and 'Investor Fraud' corporation operating on a global scale.

You can 'Buy' metals in one country, avoiding international banking and money transfer laws, and 'Sell' in another country, collect your cash, minus large 'Trading' fees.

When Monex bilks the 'Joe Average' investor, and finally gets caught, they simply drag it out in the courts, pay pennies on the dollar *IF* they are found to have directly defrauded 'clients' (con marks)...
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-monex-fraud-20170906-story.html

This isn't confined to the US,
Showing little or no Fiduciary Responsibility to small, independent investors, offering pennies on the dollar in obvious fraud cases and requiring gag order to recover any portion of you 'Investments'.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1059666

And Monex stands accused of working with drug dealers to influence entire country elections, being the conduit for illegal campaign contributions, etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_Monex#2012_Federal_election_in_Mexico

The gold you buy might not be gold, the most common 1 kilo bar about the size/shape of a cell phone are being countrrfitted with such high quality the only way to detect them is by serial numbers showing up twice...
https://business.financialpost.com/...anded-bars-slip-dirty-gold-into-world-markets

The Swiss aren't the only ones having the issue with counterfeit bullion bars,
https://washingtonsblog.com/2013/01...s-demanding-that-the-u-s-return-its-gold.html

Monex sponsors a LOT of far right wing political shows and paid pundts, so for the people that believe "Precious Metals" are the way to invest your hard earned dollars, I would recommend you do some research into the company, read reviews from customers, and understand they have exactly ZERO Fiduciary Responsibly to their 'Clients',
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/monex_gold.html

Both Presidents GW Bush & Obama pushed for Fiduciary Responsibility laws from the stock market & bank collapse (bank collapse being MUCH worse than the stock market crash) Great Depression era, neither was successful, congress simply wasn't having it, much of there wealth and campaign contributions (on both sides) are from 'Capitalism' investment companies...
https://www.investmentnews.com/article/20081005/REG/310069989/congress-abdicates-its-fiduciary-duty
https://www.thomhartmann.com/users/...aking-case-gop-congress-breach-fiduciary-duty

AND,
This was all made possible by the Reagan era deregulation of banks, brokers, etc. and loss of Fiduciary Responsibility continues to grow, being voted down in Congress though the GWB, Obama & Trump administrations, and again two years ago in Congress and again this year.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Free market economy is not broken. It's humming right along keeping millions of Americans along with millions of others in free countries fed, clothed, happy and healthy in a fashion never seen before in recorded history! Some will whine as they are being hanged with a brand new rope!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

as some dreamily reminisce of the days when Jimmy Carter was busting up monopolies, jet fueling the economy and creating jobs in the sweater industry.
Thank the good Lord that he created the misery index so we could all understand how bad off we would be without him.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Free market economy is not broken. It's humming right along keeping millions of Americans along with millions of others in free countries fed, clothed, happy and healthy in a fashion never seen before in recorded history! Some will whine as they are being hanged with a brand new rope!


Not Really the question though is it?
The question is how can a shortage exist without wages rising to fill that shortage. Or why aren’t the wages raising in a field with a shortage?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Not Really the question though is it?
> The question is how can a shortage exist without wages rising to fill that shortage. Or why aren’t the wages raising in a field with a shortage?


Wages have been rising all along in fields where there have been shortages of qualified help. It's how it works.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> The question is how can a shortage exist without wages rising to fill that shortage.


Raising wages doesn't magically create qualified workers.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Raising wages doesn't magically create qualified workers.


Nothing magic about it.... Offering high wages will get people off their backsides to become qualified. Remember when there was such a demand for keypunch operators? Whole new schools opened up, thousands of people scrambled to get those jobs!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Not Really the question though is it?
> The question is how can a shortage exist without wages rising to fill that shortage. Or why aren’t the wages raising in a field with a shortage?





Yvonne's hubby said:


> Wages have been rising all along in fields where there have been shortages of qualified help. It's how it works.


That's how it's _supposed_ to work, but obviously the info you have about the jobs he questioned is wrong, because that's NOT what has happened, especially in trucking. I've followed that for years and have tons of info firsthand.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Wages have been rising all along in fields where there have been shortages of qualified help. It's how it works.


 First off I don’t believe that. 
But what say I do believe that you believe that so why is there still a shortage of truck drivers? Why is there still a shortage of nurses?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Raising wages doesn't magically create qualified workers.


 it should encourage them to enter the field, it should encourage them to re-enter the field. 
But after many years of shortages it’s obviously not working. 
Why not


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Raising wages doesn't magically create qualified workers.


 it should encourage them to enter the field, it should encourage them to re-enter the field. 
But after many years of shortages it’s obviously not working. 
Why not?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> it should encourage them to enter the field, it should encourage them to re-enter the field.
> But after many years of shortages it’s obviously not working.
> Why not?


You've yet to prove there are real "shortages" or the "the free market is broken".
You started out with a false premise and keep adding to it without adding any real evidence.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nothing magic about it.... Offering high wages will get people off their backsides to become qualified.


Sometimes it takes years to become qualified.
During that time the population grows and more workers are needed.

Most anyone *can be* a truck driver.
Most people don't *want* the job for any amount of pay.

It's not only about money.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've yet to prove there are real "shortages" or the "the free market is broken".
> You started out with a false premise and keep adding to it without adding any real evidence.


 Somethings are common knowledge And I didn’t realize they needed to be proved.
Let me see if I can find you some links for the sun comes up in the east....,


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I keep hearing about a shortage of truck drivers but not much is ever late getting to me.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Not Really the question though is it?
> The question is how can a shortage exist without wages rising to fill that shortage. Or why aren’t the wages raising in a field with a shortage?


After all this, I'd say, the invisible hand holds back.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Sometimes it takes years to become qualified.
> During that time the population grows and more workers are needed.
> 
> Most anyone *can be* a truck driver.
> ...


It is not a bright future for a young up and comer. Auto-driving trucks will shrink their numbers


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> It is not a bright future for a young up and comer. Auto-driving trucks will shrink their numbers


Yes but if he self driving truck manufacturers are smart they won’t sell more than about 2/3 the number needed to replace truck drivers
If they can completely replace truck drivers it then becomes a scramble to the bottom for who can make the cheapest self driving truck. 
As long as a significant portion of drivers are still needed the truck is worth just a little less than what it cost for two trucks and 2 drivers.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Danaus29 said:


> Many entry level nurses in the Columbus area are Somalian. Americans can't afford the classes for nursing school. The Somalian immigrants get free tuition.


Umm who pays for these tuition free Somalians? I checked on the internet and can find no such thing


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> Mostly I have been yawning at this thread but I do have one question to ask if anyone has an answer.
> 
> Greed....What is the difference when you put a qualifier in the front of it. Capitalist greed, Socialist greed, Communistic greed. Imperialist greed.
> 
> ...


"Poor man want to be rich
Rich man want to be king
And a king ain't satisfied
Till he rules everything"

Springsteen, Badlands


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

keenataz said:


> "Poor man want to be rich
> Rich man want to be king
> And a king ain't satisfied
> Till he rules everything"
> ...


Thanks for not writing an epic poem in response. Every living thing on this earth is an opportunist. From a bacteria to humans and everything in between. Evolution makes us so. The non opportunist have died off for the last few 100 millions of years. So if we create everything where everyone shares in equally we will die off too or revolt causing many deaths anyway. That's why it never works in the long run. No matter how many times it's been tried.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

A million dollars don't make you happy.
The guy with 9 million is just as happy as the guy with ten.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> Thanks for not writing an epic poem in response. Every living thing on this earth is an opportunist. From a bacteria to humans and everything in between. Evolution makes us so. The non opportunist have died off for the last few 100 millions of years. So if we create everything where everyone shares in equally we will die off too or revolt causing many deaths anyway. That's why it never works in the long run. No matter how many times it's been tried.



My poetry writing days ended in high school.

Don't know if you were a hockey fan, but at the time the Toronto Maple Leafs best player and captain was Darryl Sittler. My poem

And the Leafs have Darryl Sittler
Leads them like the Germans with Hitler.

Did not go over well.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> "Poor man want to be rich
> Rich man want to be king
> And a king ain't satisfied
> Till he rules everything"
> ...


Bruce is a communist


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> A million dollars don't make you happy.
> The guy with 9 million is just as happy as the guy with ten.


9 million, ten million, only a million difference


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Bruce is a communist


Oh my, my, my.

he is one rich communist then.

Best concert I have attended


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

You can bet the guy with 9 wants ten and the guy with 10 wants twenty.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> First off I don’t believe that.
> But what say I do believe that you believe that so why is there still a shortage of truck drivers? Why is there still a shortage of nurses?


Truck driving is 80% Capitalism company owned, the Capitalists simply conspire to NOT raise wages, in favor of concentrating money at the top.
After all, a 15th Mansion, get a new yacht that's 50 feet longer is a necessity at the top 1%

After all, what would the guy actually doing the job, the truck driver, do with a living wage or wages equal to work product?
He would only buy food, a reasonable house, health care, spend his money locally instead of concentrating it at the top, maybe education for their children without those children incurring lifetime debt...


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> I keep hearing about a shortage of truck drivers but not much is ever late getting to me.


My Yvonne owns a warehouse and does the shipping and receiving for a major company. They get products in from numerous states, seldom if ever a problem with a truck being late.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Truck driving is 80% Capitalism company owned, the Capitalists simply conspire to NOT raise wages, in favor of concentrating money at the top.
> After all, a 15th Mansion, get a new yacht that's 50 feet longer is a necessity at the top 1%
> 
> After all, what would the guy actually doing the job, the truck driver, do with a living wage or wages equal to work product?
> He would only buy food, a reasonable house, health care, spend his money locally instead of concentrating it at the top, maybe education for their children without those children incurring lifetime debt...


You have already demonstrated plainly that you don't understand what capitalism is or a free market is. If you believe truck drivers don't make a living wage, we'll just add that term to what you need to educate yourself on. "The man" is not trying to keep you down. If you don't like the wages offered, find a job/profession that pays you what you think is a "fair wage". The days of slavery and indentured servitude have been gone for some time. There is no time in history or geography where there are fewer barriers to improving your socioeconomic status.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> Truck driving is 80% Capitalism company owned, the Capitalists simply conspire to NOT raise wages, in favor of concentrating money at the top.
> After all, a 15th Mansion, get a new yacht that's 50 feet longer is a necessity at the top 1%
> 
> After all, what would the guy actually doing the job, the truck driver, do with a living wage or wages equal to work product?
> He would only buy food, a reasonable house, health care, spend his money locally instead of concentrating it at the top, maybe education for their children without those children incurring lifetime debt...


History does not support your supposition. Those wage earners insisted on employer furnished health care, blew their money on cars, boats and other disposable toys and are now crying their eyes out coz they can't get by on social security.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

farmrbrown said:


> Hopefully not _this_ guy's......


He got thrown in jail, fyi. But, what he said remains salient, because those types of people exist and that drives innovation and efficiency to a level that would not be attainable without them, imho.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My Yvonne owns a warehouse and does the shipping and receiving for a major company. They get products in from numerous states, seldom if ever a problem with a truck being late.


That’s because companies don’t take loads they can’t deliver.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you think that companies have created a fake shortage ?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

keenataz said:


> Umm who pays for these tuition free Somalians? I checked on the internet and can find no such thing


Nobody pays for them, slavery is illegal in the US.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> That’s because companies don’t take loads they can’t deliver.


Apparently they have trucks, and drivers.... Doesn't sound like a shortage to me. Many many years ago as a young feller I considered taking up truck driving. I opted out, didn't like the uniform I'd have to wear..... I had never liked them cowboy boots or hats.... Never!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol never wore the boots or hat. 
When they say shortage I think they mean loads they can’t take cause they don’t have the drivers.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you think that companies have created a fake shortage ?


That's actually discussed on the trucker forums and there are some reasons to think so.
I was skeptical until I saw the same things happening in my own profession and it started to make sense.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Apparently they have trucks, and drivers.... Doesn't sound like a shortage to me. Many many years ago as a young feller I considered taking up truck driving. I opted out, didn't like the uniform I'd have to wear..... I had never liked them cowboy boots or hats.... Never!


Reminds me of a joke I heard......


A cowboy is giving a talk to some school kids explaining that everything a cowboy wears has a purpose. He says, "Now, my hat is shaped the way it is to keep the sun off my face and the back of my neck and if my horse needs a drink I can use my hat to scoop him up some water"....."Any I pull this bandana here that's around my neck up over my face so that I don't get dust in my eyes and nose when I'm trailing cattle".... A little boy sitting in the front row says, "How come you're wearing tennis shoes instead of Cowboy Boots"? The cowboy smiles and says, "That's so folks don't mistake me for a truck driver."


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Reminds me of a joke I heard......


The one about the cowboy who wore tennis shoes?


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Hiro said:


> You have already demonstrated plainly that you don't understand what capitalism is or a free market is. If you believe truck drivers don't make a living wage, we'll just add that term to what you need to educate yourself on. "The man" is not trying to keep you down. If you don't like the wages offered, find a job/profession that pays you what you think is a "fair wage". The days of slavery and indentured servitude have been gone for some time. There is no time in history or geography where there are fewer barriers to improving your socioeconomic status.


Since you haven't been paying attention, that's exactly what me and my friends did.
We found niches in the Capitalists systems, paid for wages, kept people since 1994, and when the latest one sold out this spring, he made enough that all the senior people could have comfortable retirements if that's what they wanted.

Which was real good since the first thing the new Capitalists owners did was take away benefits, cut bonuses, outsource manufacturing and lay off workers.

The guy that owned the business immediately got a ready, trained workforce migrating over to the business he retained, from May to September the company is having supply issues, and when the outsourced parts start rolling in the quality is going to suffer on top of supply issues.

Meanwhile, back at the locally owned, ethical businesses, with the connections and unequaled reputation, the side products business is taking off and new products are being increased building the line and reputation.
In five years when the non-compete clause runs out, the same crew that built all the innovative products in the first place will be in position to fill the gap in the market for top grade products while the Capitalists owned company is still struggling with quality control, no innovation, qualified labor issues, etc. etc.

Niche markets are like that, Colt tried it with Holley is an example, and a conglomerate is trying it with MSD, and on other is trying it with BDS.
Race car parts is a niche market, the 'Capitalism' model doesn't work well, or at all, like APC.
Billion dollar a year business, Capitalists sunk it in less than 5 years, the original owner built another half billion a year business in the time it took to sink APC.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Danaus29 said:


> Nobody pays for them, slavery is illegal in the US.


Oops on my part

Pretty funny reply


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

farmrbrown said:


> That's actually discussed on the trucker forums and there are some reasons to think so.
> I was skeptical until I saw the same things happening in my own profession and it started to make sense.


In our little community we are getting occasional shortages at our grocery store. One reason is the just in time shipping. Other from signs in store-delivery late


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I just figured out why this thread came alive again all at once,
A certain segment/demographic succeeded in getting the subject they didn't like closed... Again...


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Hiro said:


> He got thrown in jail, fyi. But, what he said remains salient, because those types of people exist and that drives innovation and efficiency to a level that would not be attainable without them, imho.


I've only met 1 or 2 like the fictional character in that movie, but the devastation left in their path was the same. They took many a successful company and in less than a year, sold it off piecemeal and shut the doors.
Same sales pitch, same promises, same style. Then they were off to another town to do the same thing.
I never saw the upside to it.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> Since you haven't been paying attention, that's exactly what me and my friends did.
> We found niches in the Capitalists systems, paid for wages, kept people since 1994, and when the latest one sold out this spring, he made enough that all the senior people could have comfortable retirements if that's what they wanted.
> 
> Which was real good since the first thing the new Capitalists owners did was take away benefits, cut bonuses, outsource manufacturing and lay off workers.
> ...


Then you are an ethical capitalist. The new owners were not. Stopping capitalism isn't going to make greed go away any more than it will grow the ethical people. In fact, taking away capitalism will likely decrease the ethical people because there will be less money to go around and it will be harder to come by.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you think that companies have created a fake shortage ?


There's no real shortage.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you think that companies have created a fake shortage ?


If you looked at the reports you would swear there IS a shortage.

truck driver shortage

But read this link and you'll find it backs up what you said all along.

https://www.businessinsider.com/truck-driver-shortage-not-real-bls-2019-3


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Reports are reports. The fact that store shelves are well stocked tells the real story. Trucks, trains and planes are getting stuff where it's sposed to go.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Reports are reports. The fact that store shelves are well stocked tells the real story. Trucks, trains and planes are getting stuff where it's sposed to go.


I don't think that was ever disputed. It was the effect it had on the people putting it on the shelves.
The whole period when jobs were being outsourced, the shelves remained full, but that wasn't the point.
Like him or not, a major reason Trump was elected was his promise to restore some equity in the American job market, and he has, don't you agree?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> I don't think that was ever disputed. It was the effect it had on the people putting it on the shelves.
> The whole period when jobs were being outsourced, the shelves remained full, but that wasn't the point.
> Like him or not, a major reason Trump was elected was his promise to restore some equity in the American job market, and he has, don't you agree?


He's put more and better jobs out there than we had, and they are being filled. Proven by low unemployment numbers, some lowest since records have been kept, fewer on food stamps and other assistance, better wages..... We really should be celebrating the good times on wall st and Main Street!


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> He's put more and better jobs out there than we had, and they are being filled. Proven by low unemployment numbers, some lowest since records have been kept, fewer on food stamps and other assistance, better wages..... We really should be celebrating the good times on wall st and Main Street!


Yep.
Yet look at how much resistance there was and still is to enacting all those policies.
Before you jump on the D vs. R bandwagon, think back to how many "establishment" types fought tooth and nail to prevent him ever getting there and how many decades they were in power doing exactly what's been described on this thread.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

keenataz said:


> Oops on my part
> 
> Pretty funny reply


If you meant who pays for their education I already posted the FAFSA link. The American taxpayer pays for their education just like anyone else who qualifies for federal, state and local grants and scholarships. Their families are usually low income when they first immigrate to this country. And there are several groups that offer assistance on how to qualify for aid and coach the family through the process. And as I said, the Somalian community places a very high priority on education, more so than most American families. Several of the young ladies I worked with were very proud to be the first generation in their family to have the opportunity to attend high school and college.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> He's put more and better jobs out there than we had, and they are being filled. Proven by low unemployment numbers, some lowest since records have been kept, fewer on food stamps and other assistance, better wages..... We really should be celebrating the good times on wall st and Main Street!



Oops on that
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...e-election-with-deep-manufacturing-recession/
U.S. manufacturing fell deeper into a contraction last month, erasing hope of a quick turnaround for the industry and handing a blow to President Trump’s promises that he would revive blue-collar jobs and companies.

The ISM manufacturing index was 47.8 in September, down even more than the 49.1 reading in August. Any number below 50 indicates the industry is in a recession.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Danaus29 said:


> If you meant who pays for their education I already posted the FAFSA link. The American taxpayer pays for their education just like anyone else who qualifies for federal, state and local grants and scholarships. Their families are usually low income when they first immigrate to this country. And there are several groups that offer assistance on how to qualify for aid and coach the family through the process. And as I said, the Somalian community places a very high priority on education, more so than most American families. Several of the young ladies I worked with were very proud to be the first generation in their family to have the opportunity to attend high school and college.



So there is no favourtism because they are Somalis?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

People of color are always favored over white people. 
There are a number of factors that combine to give Somalian immigrants an edge over American citizens. Probably just not the fact they are Somalian, but the dedication to education, ability to speak several languages, income level, course of study, etc.
Another thing that Somalians have in their favor is that they do not view any job as "beneath them". That's why so many go into the health care field. The opportunity is there and they are willing to clean up gross messes that American's don't want to do.
The ones that I knew did not rate job opportunities according to the money they could make. It's difficult to explain but their sense of community is much stronger than Americans. They try to take jobs where they can serve their community in general.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Then you are an ethical capitalist. The new owners were not. Stopping capitalism isn't going to make greed go away any more than it will grow the ethical people. In fact, taking away capitalism will likely decrease the ethical people because there will be less money to go around and it will be harder to come by.


Do you really think 'Money' is going to disappear if the unethical people are squeezed out?

When the work product is generated locally, and the proceeds are spent locally, there is more money in circulation locally... For everything including local business starts, which is more jobs, which is more money in circulation, etc.

When banks were deregulated, first it was National, the International, you have to beg for money from New York, Dubai, London...
'Small Town America' dried up and blew away, but most of the guys ranting and raving about this stuff don't remember how well smaller economies thrived before deregulation, so the point is moot.
No memory, no history, just party line dogma.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> That's how it's _supposed_ to work, but obviously the info you have about the jobs he questioned is wrong, because that's NOT what has happened, especially in trucking. I've followed that for years and have tons of info firsthand.


Farmer Brown, if you want a perspective on trucking that doesn't fit the party line dogma,
Warren Buffett, billionare, owns controlling interest in the Pilot/Flying J fuel distribution network, etc.
In his recent address to stockholders explaining why Berkshire Hathaway was stockpiling cash on hand (which he did previous to last economic crash),
He addressed the fact that there simply isn't enough freight to go around, trucking was saturated by unethical cut throat companies keeping driver wages down to help offset losses keeping transportation unnaturally low.

He also pointed to the lack of freight (actual goods moving) opposed to the 'Claimed' production levels by this adminstration.
He also compared the stock market rocketship to the actual amount of goods being shipped, and the numbers simply don't add up...
The freight (goods) simply aren't there to be moved.

This was an indicator he used in the last crash also, but the numbers were skewed by transportation of war time goods, this time the actual numbers are much more clear to use as an indicator.

When one of the most successful investors in history says the is a problem with the numbers, and is setting billions aside for an imminent stock market and real estate crash, it's worth listening.
Consider the date of this article and see if this makes sense...
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/08/03/business/berkshire-hathaway-q2-earnings/index.html[/quote]


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> So there is no favourtism because they are Somalis?


Favoritism got them in the country in the first place.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> Oops on that
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...e-election-with-deep-manufacturing-recession/
> U.S. manufacturing fell deeper into a contraction last month, erasing hope of a quick turnaround for the industry and handing a blow to President Trump’s promises that he would revive blue-collar jobs and companies.


You really think a political anti-Trump article in the WaPo is credible evidence of anything?


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Do you really think 'Money' is going to disappear if the unethical people are squeezed out?
> 
> When the work product is generated locally, and the proceeds are spent locally, there is more money in circulation locally... For everything including local business starts, which is more jobs, which is more money in circulation, etc.
> 
> ...


Money being kept locally isn't really a rational goal. Business kept locally is just fine, if you it makes you feel better. Money generated by local business, deposited in a local bank still gets vacuumed up into the Federal Reserve system even if overnight. It isn't local money anymore, it isn't national money anymore, it just a cog in the wheel of fractional reserve global banking. 

You keep referring to deregulation being the end of a real economy, yet the next sentence/paragraph is about a free market economy and capitalism being evil. Your answer to how you can have a free market economy without capitalism is one word..."ethics". It isn't a free market if you exclude people or businesses without your version of ethics, whatever that might be....even if those ethics are the same as me or 99% of the population. Regulation is the antithesis of a free market. Regulation is necessary for a functioning free market. But, all of the examples that you refer to about deregulation leading to economic disruption that I have seen didn't lead to the outcomes that you refer to in the crises or disruption you reference.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

People seem to not think about where the money they spend goes. Many of the chain business have their money go out of town the instant the transaction is processed. In general the only money staying local is what paid to the workers and paid to local sales taxes. Of course most of the money the workers spend also goes out of town the instant they buy from the chain business. 
Pretty hard for a small town to deal with.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> Do you really think 'Money' is going to disappear if the unethical people are squeezed out?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> People seem to not think about where the money they spend goes. Many of the chain business have their money go out of town the instant the transaction is processed. In general the only money staying local is what paid to the workers and paid to local sales taxes. Of course most of the money the workers spend also goes out of town the instant they buy from the chain business.
> Pretty hard for a small town to deal with.


Exactly.
Local Economies depend on recirculation, when the money is moved out, it doesn't circulate.
Kids that don't go to collage, homes that don't get built, schools that don't have a tax base because money isn't circulating.
Spent once and gone.

I take endless crap because I refuse to shop at Wally World or other conglomerates.
I rarely eat at chain restaurants, local owned franchisee being the exception.
I buy from the local hardware store, the 4th generation running it now.
I do business at private mechanical shops, they do business with my machine shop.
Since there are steels no longer made in the US, we buy from the local dealer and use as much US made steel that's available.
Since we make parts that are exported all over the world through my customers companies, we bring outside money into the area, and spend it here.

Deprogramming people is harder than programming them, and it's not my job...
If you can't see it when it's pointed out, step by step, there simply isn't anything more I can do.
A bunch of you bought into a dogma, you are invested in that dogma, good luck with that.

My question is, how are your actual investments doing, you and your kids have good jobs?
Are there new good living wage jobs with benefits cropping up all around you?
Are your schools fully funded from your tax base?
If not, you might want to rethink the whole 'Capitalism' vs. Communism lies, busting unions, buying at big chain stores...
Some of us aren't waiting for 'Trickle Down' since we are still waiting 40 years later.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

keenataz said:


> Oops on that
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...e-election-with-deep-manufacturing-recession/
> U.S. manufacturing fell deeper into a contraction last month, erasing hope of a quick turnaround for the industry and handing a blow to President Trump’s promises that he would revive blue-collar jobs and companies.
> 
> The ISM manufacturing index was 47.8 in September, down even more than the 49.1 reading in August. Any number below 50 indicates the industry is in a recession.


I don't put a lot of faith in the wapo when it comes to accuracy. Those guys should be in the textile business the way they spin yarns.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Some folks do. Actually a lot of folks do. But then a lot of folks buy the national inquirer too.


Bearfootfarm said:


> You really think a political anti-Trump article in the WaPo is credible evidence of anything?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I don't put a lot of faith in the wapo when it comes to accuracy. Those guys should be in the textile business the way they spin yarns.


That wouldn't do them any good.
The textile industry has already left this country a long time ago. I wonder what happened?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Unions


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> He addressed the fact that there simply isn't enough freight to go around, *trucking was saturated* by unethical cut throat companies keeping driver wages down to help offset losses keeping transportation unnaturally low.


But what about the "driver shortage"?


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> But what about the "driver shortage"?


It's a saturated shortage.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> It's a saturated shortage.


Thanks!
That clears things up.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> But what about the "driver shortage"?


makes your head spin


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Unions



Good guess but no.
Try NAFTA.

https://www.independenttribune.com/...cle_65325fc0-b20e-552c-a1bf-80b52e94ba06.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/20/business/us-textile-factories-return.html

https://www.ncpedia.org/textiles-part-4-decline


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

That too.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

NAFTA killed a lot of jobs in this country. Why stay in the US when you can move your plant to a country with little environmental protection laws, low wages and few employee protection regulations?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> NAFTA killed a lot of jobs in this country. Why stay in the US when you can move your plant to a country with little environmental protection laws, low wages and few employee protection regulations?


True on all fronts. I know in my area nafta put a lot of folks out of work. We have maybe one out of five sewing factories left. Fortunately in recent years other manufacturing is making a comeback.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Governments make decisions. Smart businessmen plan accordingly.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

And good business men have been known to help the government make decisions


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Redlands Okie said:


> And good business men have been known to help the government make decisions


Good ?
Perhaps successful would’ve been a better choice of words


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

They are both hard jobs. It is no easy task to complete a nursing program and the work is often night shift. Truck driving is good money for the person that doesn't mind living in a truck with exception of the lucky ones having a local route. Not sure about trucking, but nursing pays great - the pay is not keeping people away.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Employment numbers out today, unemployment at 3.5%, a 50 year low.
Wages still stagnate.

Record shortages of skilled labor, so much for free market increased income incentives.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


>


October 4
News
*FREE TRADE ZONE IS PEROT'S OWN NAFTA*
Dan McGraw, Special to the TribuneCHICAGO TRIBUNE


When Texas billionaire Ross Perot makes his stump speech about the evils of the North American Free Trade Agreement, he's sure to mention the infamous "sucking sound" that he predicts will be heard when America
The dirty dog.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Wages still stagnate.


That's more misinformation.
I see a pattern.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/31/wag...3point1percent-highest-level-in-a-decade.html

https://www.shrm.org/ResourcesAndTo...on/Pages/2019-salary-budgets-inch-upward.aspx


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

What is the Pattern you see?


Bearfootfarm said:


> That's more misinformation.
> I see a pattern.
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/31/wag...3point1percent-highest-level-in-a-decade.html
> 
> https://www.shrm.org/ResourcesAndTo...on/Pages/2019-salary-budgets-inch-upward.aspx


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> What is the Pattern you see?


It's really self explanatory.
There is only one logical choice.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> What is the Pattern you see?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Wages may have gone up for some. However the higher cost of living due to prices going up for insurance, vehicles, groceries, etc. has more than offset the wage increase. A person can post lots of info. Bottom line is that for many Americans their take home pay will buy less fuel, grocery’s, and other daily items than it used to. 

Less disposable income is not a good thing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> Wages may have gone up for some. However the higher cost of living due to prices going up for insurance, vehicles, groceries, etc. has more than offset the wage increase. A person can post lots of info. Bottom line is that for many Americans their take home pay will buy less fuel, grocery’s, and other daily items than it used to.
> 
> Less disposable income is not a good thing.


Our money buys less and less. All the QEing, and limitless debt guarantees that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

In high school I used to make five dollars an hour at a 40 hour a week job .
I made two brand new pick up trucks a year. 
Now the kid doing the exact same job makes $7.50 an hour .
That is 1/3 of a new pick up truck a year .
Don’t tell me that wages have gone up .
My foot might be wet but it’s not raining .


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> In high school I used to make five dollars an hour at a 40 hour a week job .
> I made two brand new pick up trucks a year.
> Now the kid doing the exact same job makes $7.50 an hour .
> That is 1/3 of a new pick up truck a year .
> ...


As a kid my Dad would tell me a time would come that you would have a wheel barrow full of money. Someone robbing you will take the wheel barrow and leave the cash. The wheel barrow will be worth more.

I did not get that story then. Now I get it. Your truck story illustrates it. It is going to get a million times worse.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Really?
> Those last paragraphs I quoted in post #217 were near the end of the article.
> That *seems contradictory*.


You've said that already.
It changes nothing.



farmrbrown said:


> SSDD, huh?


Yes, until you can truly be honest I don't expect to see any changes.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've said that already.
> It changes nothing.
> 
> 
> Yes, until you can truly be honest I don't expect to see any changes.


Here's the thing about that.
I _*can be*_, but I choose to keep it to myself until it can be accepted as honesty.
Unless that happens, then as you say, it changes nothing.
That's the gift of discernment and that's what helps me navigate the minefield of life.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

The products of the past such as wheel barrows were also better quality than today.
You can buy high quality today but you pay a premium you would not pay in the past.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've said that already.
> It changes nothing.
> 
> 
> Yes, until you can truly be honest I don't expect to see any changes.


 How about we debate the subject not posters motives , credibility or personal life ?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> The products of the past such as wheel barrows were also better quality than today.
> You can buy high quality today but you pay a premium you would not pay in the past.


I like how they have solid rubber wheels now.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Don't bet on it.
> 
> I'll take a guess though.
> He was _trying_ _to say_ that his post was wrong or untrue.
> ...


Exactly.
While 'Capitalism' companies took over the market and jacked prices to the absloute limit the market will bear,
And these companies simply refuse to raise wages...

Creeping inflation has eroded any wage increases the work force manages to kick & claw out of employers.

No matter if you believe in 'Trickle Down Economics' or not, it's simply proven itself to be false over the last 40 years,
Duped or willing conspirators, the Reagan adminstration played directly into the hands of 'Capitalism' big business and now we have a poor 'Peasant' class and the top 1%, and not much else in between, the 'Economic Middle Class' as simply been picked clean for 40 years and that's VERY clear to anyone paying any attention at all.

-------------

Some posts looked really strange to me, I couldn't figure out who they were aimed at...
Then I saw the 'Show Ignorant Content' at the bottom and figured out by post numbers it's someone I have on the 'Ignore' list.
They are on the 'Ignore' list for a reason...

Carry on with the argument, I'm finding it really funny anyone can still defend 'Capitalism' or 'Trickle Down Theory' when they have clearly been really bad for the working class Americans, and yet while the same people ENDLESSLY argue 'Left' or 'Right' wings are to blame, wings on the same vulture, and you have reelected them for an average of 34 years, and party leaders go back to the Reagan adminstration that screwed everyone in the first place!

One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over & over again, expecting different results! 

CARRY ON!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JeepHammer said:


> Exactly.
> While 'Capitalism' companies took over the market and jacked prices to the absloute limit the market will bear,
> And these companies simply refuse to raise wages...
> 
> ...



Naw, a little bit of that goes a long way, like good whiskey.......or even bad whiskey - too much will give ya a real headache, lol.
Not every single problem is the result of coercion between big business and power politics, but it plays a major role and always has.
And unless you wanna bring a bankroll to their table, ante up and try to play _with them_, I've found it best just to keep an eye on them and try to avoid them altogether.
They'll use you up and spit you out when they are done sucking you dry.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Just pointing out the same big rock wall that America crashes every car into, over & over again claiming the rock isn't there...
Capitalistic companies and Reagan adminstration painted a tunnel on it like in the road runner cartoons, and the cars with the same drivers just keep coming over and over again as fast as they can get a new car... 

Don't like the rat race? How about getting rid of the rats...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JeepHammer said:


> Just pointing out the same big rock wall that America crashes every car into, over & over again claiming the rock isn't there...
> Capitalistic companies and Reagan adminstration painted a tunnel on it like in the road runner cartoons, and the cars with the same drivers just keep coming over and over again as fast as they can get a new car...
> 
> Don't like the rat race? How about getting rid of the rats...


That's the thing about rats, we'll always have some around.
My policy on dealing with them is to keep them out of my house and away from me. As long as they understand that and do it, we'll each go our separate ways, but it's non negotiable.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This has hit the point where it has exceeded GC limits.


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