# setting up off-grid circulation hot waterheat pumps for livestock water tanks/troughs



## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I think I've asked about something similar before but didn't get a lot of response or couldn't follow what I did get back... 

We are off-grid and hate using 1500-watt stock tank heaters in the winter. Last year we bagged it and just brought several buckets several times a day to the horses as we had in the past at our old barns.

I saw a local ad for a solar set-up for a swimming pool - $40 for 2 big solar panels - not clear if the pump was to go with it or not. I can't get the phone # to work and they are not responding to emails. Go figure. But it got me to thinking again... The tanks I have are only around 100 gallons and they do have a drain plug. The are made by Rubbermaid.

I could easily go solar or wind or hybrid solar & wind for this application provided I didn't have to go 200' in the air with a wind turbine for such a small task.

I would need to set something up that is totally self-contained, has no dangerous wires or anything a horse can injure themselves on (but I can put the trough next to a fence if I can do most of the set-up outside the pasture and then run a protected line through the fence and into the tank where they can't reach it.

The last time I looked for a pre-done set-up, I found 2 options: 1 was a stock tank with a solar panel on the side for around $650US. The other was a pump of some sort that required digging down to your waterline and making a t there and putting in a drainfield for the backflow, etc. It didn't heat the water, but drew it right from your well somehow, on demand. I found no one that has had success with it locally but one person supposedly installed it a few years ago and has not answered my inquiries. So there is no demonstrative success in our climate and I suspect it would freeze up so defeats the purpose really.

Ideas? Expense? :help:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Hmmm . . .Alaska . . . 

How many days in a row might you go without seeing the Sun . ?

How you gonna heat\move the water on those days . .?

Those arm strong buckets shure are tried and proven . .lol


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
I don't think that the unglazed pool collectors will work well in the winter -- I believe they would freeze.

Here is one commercial product you may already be aware of:
http://www.horsesonly.com/amesco/info.htm

It seems to me that you could build something like this pretty inexpensively. I think the key things would be to:
- Insulate the tank on the sides and bottom.
- Try to minimize the exposed water area -- maybe some type of floating, insulated lid with a hole just large enough for drinking?
- Provide a glazed area that is as large as practical -- maybe use something like SunTuf that HD sells for $1 per sqft -- it is polycarbonate, so pretty tough.
- The glazing should be arranged to face south and be vertical or near vertical, and the tank wall behind the glazing should be painted black to absorb the sun better. The part of the tank wall not facing the sun should be well insulated.

The only problem I see with this design is that the heat loss from the tank through the glazing at night will be pretty large. If there were some way to insulate the glazed area at night, this would greatly improve the performance.



Another possibility would be to use something like one of these solar hot-tub heaters:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PoolHeating/SolarHotTub.htm

http://www.hotspringsenthusiast.com/illus.asp

You would probably need to have antifreeze in the collector, and this means you cannot circulate collector fluid into the stock tan directly. You could immerse a coil of pipe in the bottom of the stock tank and circulate collector fluid through this to transfer heat to the stock tank.
The nice thing about this solution is that as long as you place the collector below the tank, it will circulate when the collector is hot, but will stop when the collector is cold -- that is , it thermosyphons.
Again, good tank insulation would be a must.

If you don't use a solar heater, then having the tank well insulated would minimize the number of times you have to add warm water. That is, a well insulated tank will take a long time to freeze.

Gary


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Hmmm, interesting possibilities! I was just hoping for a couple of inexpensive solar panels connected directly to a DC circulation hot water circulation/heat pump knowing that I would likely have to modify the encasement around the tank as SolarGary suggested to maximize solar gain & minimize heat loss... You've given me some ideas!

On the Suntuf panels, what do you mean by "vertical" and if it's what I think it is, why would it matter that the little ridges run up & down vs. left to right?

Jim-mi - did I mention we have a luxurious new home (2,128sf) with barn & heated outbuilding & chicken coop, etc. all running on an off-grid solar system?


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Oh yeah, here's the ad I was talking about (with pictures of what the seller has set-up):

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/for/399456853.html


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

OK I LOVE that solar-powered hot tub idea from http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PoolHeating/SolarHotTub.htm !

I read the notes at the bottom though - to eliminate the pump, what is a header style vs. a serpentine in the collector?


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

hoofinitnorth said:


> ...
> 
> On the Suntuf panels, what do you mean by "vertical" and if it's what I think it is, why would it matter that the little ridges run up & down vs. left to right?



I just meant that the glazing should be tilted up to near vertical so that the low winter sun shines directly on it. I agree that it it should not really mater which way you run the corrugations.

On the serpentine vs parallel pipes with a header, the lower flow resistance of the parallel pipes would make it thermosyphon faster, but it might still work OK with the serpentine. 

Gary


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I get the impression from that pix (2x20?? pool heaters) that those are just a lot of black plastic etc. ---Great for *summer* usage . . . .but I wouldn't begin to think of using those when the temp goes below 35f 

Ho-ray for you on your place and..... Off Grid.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I guess I don't know what "parallel pipes with a header" is and how it differs from a serpentine. :help:

Jim-mi, I was thinking the same thing on that photo of the things offered for sale. The seller did call me today and I called her back. Phone tag. *sigh*


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Some garbage cans have a foot pedal to open the lid - makes you wonder if you couldn't design a well insulated water trough with an insulated lid - which was only open when the horse was drinking. When the horse steps away, the lid closes. 

Would a liquid fuel or propane powered catalytic heater placed in the bottom "chamber" of a custom made water trough be out of the question?


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

They do have stock-activated lidded stock tanks but I hear the freeze shut or open A LOT. 

Not sure about a catalytic heater - would have to have a safety cage around it to not melt the plastic/hard rubber tubs. Not sure if it would be safe in metal either - electric or heat conductivity issues?

They supposedly have propane-fired stock tank heaters but I've yet to find a picture of one or find one locally or at a store that will ship to me for under $10,000,000.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

The trough would have to be custom designed - with a steel heat chamber in the bottom - well insulated, un-tippable, etc. The plastic/rubber water tub would be in the upper chamber, away from direct heat. The catalytic heater would be placed in the bottom chamber. Obviously, the objective would be to keep the water from freezing and not actually boil the water or do any damage.

Many catalytic heaters need no electricity (which is convenient since you're off grid) and since catalytic heat is flameless, they adapt well to hazardous environments. My only experience with these heaters was in industry, and not with horses (which I know nothing about) in Alaska. I also have a $5 yard-sale Coleman catalytic heater in my garage - which does get you thinking  



hoofinitnorth said:


> They do have stock-activated lidded stock tanks but I hear the freeze shut or open A LOT.
> 
> Not sure about a catalytic heater - would have to have a safety cage around it to not melt the plastic/hard rubber tubs. Not sure if it would be safe in metal either - electric or heat conductivity issues?
> 
> They supposedly have propane-fired stock tank heaters but I've yet to find a picture of one or find one locally or at a store that will ship to me for under $10,000,000.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
On heating the tank with propane, you have to wonder is something simple like an insulated watering tank with a pilot light under it would work. You could make this from replacement parts, or salvage it from a discarded gas appliance?

12V reported that he heats all of his hot water with just a pilot light.

I think insulation is the key.

Gary


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Interesting, SolarGary... I bet that would work for part of the winter at least, and then you could fire it up with whole flame when needed? Not sure though... Will have to do some tinkering. Too bad we aren't welders... yet!


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

hoof try seeking out an a fish Ice tote. The processors all have them. They hold the heat for days. (fishermen hot tubs)..they have lids and a hose can be fitted on the bottom drain hole. start with hot/warm water and drain from the hose you add. 
they are a bout 4 feet by 4 feet by 4 feet.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

kasilofhome - oh that's a good idea! I could probably paint it black, even! Off to search...  Not sure about being able to put a heater in it though...


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## lonewolfparker (Oct 26, 2004)

seen just what you needed here in kansas last year at the coop we are bying one this winter it uses a 20 gal propane tank as a bubbler and it is said to work real well it needs to be installed in the fall and here in kansas 1 tank will last all winter.
good luck
lonewolf


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

lonewolfparker - where can I get one?? And how much do I have to spend?


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I hate using electricity, propane, etc for keeping a waterer going. Seems things go to heck, & then it all freezes up, busts, etc.

This is what I installed 3 years ago:

http://cobett.com/index.html

Needs no energy at all, just check it once a day. Has worked very, very well for me.

How deep is your frost line of course? I got the model that goes 8' deep. has worked well here, was 20 below for a few days last winter, _no_ snow on the ground. In wind the surface water will freeze over a 1/2 inch or so, but break it up once a day, & the waterer continues to work just great.

No energy needed.

I'd not go back to anything with a heater needed.

This type uses an insulated pipe burried vertically into the ground. It must go below the frost line. Earth temperature is around 50-55 degrees all year around below frost line. The tube allows this warmer air to rise up & keep the bottom of the water tank heated. So the working parts never freeze up. Only the surface of the water is exposed to the cold. If you have enough critters drinking, they will keep the ice from forming. If you only have a couple, they still can get to the water for 1/4 to 1/2 of the day, when you poke it open or when the sun is shining & keeps the top melted.

--->Paul


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## Labrat407 (Aug 24, 2007)

There are pond heaters that float on the surface that help keep the water from freezing over. Some might be solar. That combined with a circulating pump, and insulation might work as part of the solution.


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## Allan Mistler (Jun 1, 2004)

I was faced with the same dilemma a couple years ago when I put my solar system in... 250 to 1200 Watt stock tank heaters don't cut it!
I looked into several methods of doing drain back systems or solar heated systems, but the cost was higher than I wish to invest, so I built a little add-on to my existing hand dug well inside the barn. The idea came from one of the drain back waterers that I saw on the web... http://www.horsedrinker.com/ but with the addition of a 12 volt diaphragm pump since I don't maintain any water pressure within the barn well system.
The dry well hole is four feet deep and a line comes from within my waterwell to the pump which is located at the bottom of the dry well. When my animals (cows, goats) depress the paddle, the pump is turned on to pump water up into the bowl... when they release the paddle, the water drains back into the dry well over about 60 seconds.
I had to insulate the 14 inch diameter drywell liner by building a wooden box around it and filling the space with "Great Stuff" expanding foam since the upper part of the head (where the electrical switch and return spring are located) gathered frost which impeded free motion once the temps dropped below zero. Anyway, that problem now solved with the extra insulation, it functions flawlessly. If you needed to, you could place a 12 volt light bulb within the dry well which operated on a thermal switch to assure that the temp at the bottom of the hole never gets below freezing... I don't know what your ground temps are at about four feet of depth in Alaska. Ours is typically above 35 F.
I guess I can only say that it works for me and might for you too!


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Thanks for all the great new ideas. Horsedrinker was the one to which I referred in an earlier post in this thread.


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