# Why overwinter the bees?



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Do people do put and take with the bees. Meaning by the queen and brood in spring and just harvest all the honey and wax in November. Here one would get about 100 lbs of honey from each hive which can easily sell for 6-7 hundred bucks. The bees cost about 150. With a total harvest you can fully clean and disinfect the hives. Plus you would get lots more wax for other projects. What piece of the puzzle am I missing?

We do have near constant blooms all summer. Trees and brush, wild flowers, brambles, than finally mountains of goldenrod is that the difference?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Not everybody does winter their bees. 

I simply want to.

Also, when bees arrive it is too late to pollinate most of the trees, and honey does not sell well where I live.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Terri said:


> Not everybody does winter their bees.
> 
> I simply want to.
> 
> Also, when bees arrive it is too late to pollinate most of the trees, and honey does not sell well where I live.


interesting... here the bees arrive so early even the latest date is too early by a few weeks.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Getting a new hive or hives every spring depends upon your being able to buy them. As long as there is the supply of bees, that is doable. I'd be a little bit concerned about there coming a time when, for whatever reason, the bees were not available in the spring. 

Is it really that hard to overwinter the hives? Would a different kind of bees do better where you are? A friend of mine has several hives at different parts of his property. The Italian bees are very docile but are not able to overwinter as well. The Russian bees are not so docile but overwinter much better than the Italian bees. FWIW. (If it matters, he's in central TN, zone 6B.)


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Bellyman said:


> Getting a new hive or hives every spring depends upon your being able to buy them. As long as there is the supply of bees, that is doable. I'd be a little bit concerned about there coming a time when, for whatever reason, the bees were not available in the spring.
> 
> Is it really that hard to overwinter the hives? Would a different kind of bees do better where you are? A friend of mine has several hives at different parts of his property. The Italian bees are very docile but are not able to overwinter as well. The Russian bees are not so docile but overwinter much better than the Italian bees. FWIW. (If it matters, he's in central TN, zone 6B.)


Mann lake has a store just an hour away. We can pick them up easy, no? For you it would be like 2 hours from Lancaster.. It's on 81 in Wilks Barre you should check them out when you have time. 

I'm zone 4b with cold conditions lasting over 6 months, plus very damp conditions due to 50+ inches of precipitation a year. So over wintering is a challenge.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Hey stanb999, 

Didn't mean to sound like I was pickin' on ya, I do apologize if my post came across that way. Reading it again, I could see how it might have seemed so. It does sound like overwintering may be more challenging where you are. Didn't know.

I don't get up towards Wilkes Barre very often but it sounds like it may be an interesting trip.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Bellyman said:


> Hey stanb999,
> 
> Didn't mean to sound like I was pickin' on ya, I do apologize if my post came across that way. Reading it again, I could see how it might have seemed so. It does sound like overwintering may be more challenging where you are. Didn't know.
> 
> I don't get up towards Wilkes Barre very often but it sounds like it may be an interesting trip.


Oh I know your friendly and we are just porch talk'in.  

It certainly is worth the trip to Mann lake. They have everything and it's on sale often. They also have free bee keeping classes. Pretty good if you ask me. 


The reason for the post is I'm the money guy and the dear wife loves the bees. I'm in need of solid reasoning before broching this topic again... put and take has thus far been ILL received.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Definitely over winter bees. We need all we can get. It's not hard. Moister is the killer. Have an open air flow on the bottom front and back top so air can flow through. The cold wont kill them. They can heat themselves. But their heat builds up moisture that forms on the top box and drips down on them causing them to freeze. Infact I now leave the bottom board completely open in the winter. Have not lost bees doing this. To many people close them up and by doing so kill them. If they over winter they can produce over 250lbs the following summer and still have plenty fir themselves. Most keepers know this. Most new comers don't and kill their bees.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

You can't always rely on being able to get packages - and every year it seems the price creeps up another $5.00 or $10.00. Or you order your packages, and the supplier runs behind due to weather / whatever - and you are at the mercy of everyone else.

You also can't always guarantee the bees will make that much honey - if it's not a good year or it rains every day and the bees caqn't get out.

It can be a challenge to overwinter - not only weather related and making sure they have enough honey to eat, but there is also the mites that can kill them off.

As long as I have one hive make it through the winter, I'm all set to go first thing in the Spring - I don't have to rely on anyone else.

Also, the bees you do get in a package are from the South, and most just don't make it through the winter here. But get a swarm from a local feral hive - and you've upped your chances - plus swarms are free.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Forgive my ignorance in asking, but I am curious...

Do bees acclimate to an area or region over time? If you have a hive that you've kept going for the past 5 or so years, will those bees be more able to survive than a hive that, say, is only in it's first year? It's not something I've heard talked about (yet). I'm still pretty new to hanging around with a few beekeeping types and have a lot to learn.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Michael W. Smith said:


> You can't always rely on being able to get packages - and every year it seems the price creeps up another $5.00 or $10.00. Or you order your packages, and the supplier runs behind due to weather / whatever - and you are at the mercy of everyone else.
> 
> You also can't always guarantee the bees will make that much honey - if it's not a good year or it rains every day and the bees caqn't get out.
> 
> ...


Please understand we farm to make money. We spent years homesteading and following what others did and never turned a profit.

I know some were worried about the colony collapse disease, but the bees are readily available currently at least in my experience. The cost could double and it would still be worth it... giving the bees a 60 pound super is like tossing out 400 bucks. Here local honey sells very easily at about 7 dollars a pound. We sold north of 100 pounds in the first few weeks open at our farm stand. We would have had much more to sell; more than double if we had done a total harvest.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Definitely over winter bees. We need all we can get. It's not hard. Moister is the killer. Have an open air flow on the bottom front and back top so air can flow through. The cold wont kill them. They can heat themselves. But their heat builds up moisture that forms on the top box and drips down on them causing them to freeze. Infact I now leave the bottom board completely open in the winter. Have not lost bees doing this. To many people close them up and by doing so kill them. If they over winter they can produce over 250lbs the following summer and still have plenty fir themselves. Most keepers know this. Most new comers don't and kill their bees.




I agree that it's likely moisture issues... How does one open the hive to weeks of fog. Then it will switch to freezing fog for the winter. Maybe it's just too damp. 

Do knowledgeable bee keepers leave their hives open on the bottom to the elements when summer temps are in the low fifties, sometimes upper 40's? With fog nearly every day?


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

We leave bottoms open year round now. Bees have faired much better this way. But our hives are 24 inches off the ground with a wind break around the cinder blocks in the winter. But there is still plenty of air flow.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

stanb999 said:


> Please understand we farm to make money. We spent years homesteading and following what others did and never turned a profit.
> 
> I know some were worried about the colony collapse disease, but the bees are readily available currently at least in my experience. The cost could double and it would still be worth it... giving the bees a 60 pound super is like tossing out 400 bucks. Here local honey sells very easily at about 7 dollars a pound. We sold north of 100 pounds in the first few weeks open at our farm stand. We would have had much more to sell; more than double if we had done a total harvest.


Some people in the Fall will take all the honey they conveniently can, and then feed heavily with sugar syrup or bee candy so that the bees replace their stores. Sugar is far cheaper than honey. So they take the fall honey-all of it- and then feed like the dickens so that the bees are able to set up winter stores ASAP.

Where I live bees cost $145 for a package, honey in the bears sell for $4 gross a pound and the sales are slow enough to be only a side project to the sale of vegetables or baked goods. For us, the bees are worth more than a years worth of wax and honey.

And, before a package can be bought someone has to go and fetch the packages of bees. So, somebody DOES go and get them and comes back with a truckload of bees, many of which have already been ordered and paid for. BUT! the bees are brought in at someone else's convenience, and by the time they arrive the trees have already bloomed. The alternative is to buy a split from another backyard beekeeper, and those are available first come first serve. 

For bees, it is a sellers market where I live.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Terri said:


> Some people in the Fall will take all the honey they conveniently can, and then feed heavily with sugar syrup or bee candy so that the bees replace their stores. Sugar is far cheaper than honey. So they take the fall honey-all of it- and then feed like the dickens so that the bees are able to set up winter stores ASAP.
> 
> Where I live bees cost $145 for a package, honey in the bears sell for $4 gross a pound and the sales are slow enough to be only a side project to the sale of vegetables or baked goods. For us, the bees are worth more than a years worth of wax and honey.
> 
> ...



OK, think I figured it out. Thank you.

#1 Here we get a good price for local honey.
#2 we are very close to Mann lake that distributes 10s of thousands of colonys to the entire east coast... it's only an hour away. So the bees are easy to get.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

what the original poster is suggesting it what was done in the 1800's till removable frame hives were invented. When the removable frames came about we became bee keepers instead of bee havers.

If you do not have the skill nor want to learn then allow the bees to die in the winter and spend a goodly chunk of cash for bees from the south or west. Do not become part of north America trying to get away from southern breed bees and possible AFB bees then do as the OP suggested.


 Al


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

Seems to me that not overwintering bees is akin to getting a milk goat in the spring, milking her all summer and then abandoning her to fate in the fall.

You can't practice animal husbandry solely through the lense of the balance sheet.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

cfuhrer said:


> Seems to me that not overwintering bees is akin to getting a milk goat in the spring, milking her all summer and then abandoning her to fate in the fall.
> 
> You can't practice animal husbandry solely through the lense of the balance sheet.


I'd say it's more like getting broiler chickens. Buy them, raise them, eat them. Profit on the farm is very important as well is one expects to do it at more than a simple hobby level.

I know I paid for our hives, equipment, and bees in two seasons even made a small profit. I'm sure there are hobbiests who have 10 years in doing it the "right way" and are still in the hole. :/


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My first hive was home made. My first smoker was a metal bowl with a fire in it, and I blew the smoke onto the bees. I gave the honey away as Christmas presents, and as I have a large extended family it saved me a lot of money. 

I do not know if I have made a profit since, as nobody in my family eats a lot of honey: to send it once in a pretty container is a perfectly good idea but I should not make a habit out of it. 

It is hard to figure out a profit in increased fruit and vegetable harvests, and in a dry year the bees produce little honey. I MIGHT have made more of a profit if I could have built up a better market, but folks in my area do not eat a lot of honey and that Is just the facts of life. I would sell jam and baked goods at the Farmer's Market, and I averaged just 2 bears of honey sold per week. And it was very good honey.

Also I went to bought hives as they are easier to handle. 

After I realized I could not build up a good enough market to earn more than small amounts of money, I decided to turn it into a hobby. And, I splurge a bit on my hobbies. I give myself $20 a week for whatever I choose, and I buy bee stuff from time to time. "Oh, I COULD continue to use dry grass for the smoker, but wouldn't special fuel work better? I think I will try it" sort of splurges. Then there was the bee attractant to catch more swarms.... and we had a terrible drought and I did not catch a single swarm... and I am terrible at losing hive tools and they are more convenient than prying with a screwdriver...... 

I was superfrugal when I regarded bees as a business, and some years I made some profit, but I don't regard bees as a business any longer and now I no longer try to make a profit. And if you do not try to make a profit I quarentee that you will not make one!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Terri said:


> My first hive was home made. My first smoker was a metal bowl with a fire in it, and I blew the smoke onto the bees. I gave the honey away as Christmas presents, and as I have a large extended family it saved me a lot of money.
> 
> I do not know if I have made a profit since, as nobody in my family eats a lot of honey: to send it once in a pretty container is a perfectly good idea but I should not make a habit out of it.
> 
> ...


Here local raw honey is all the rage. Intresting how different areas have different trends. Tho, I have 7 million consumers within 50 miles. 10s of millions within 150. There are benifits to living just outside the megaopolis. Tho taxes are high and roads are crowded.


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## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

Interesting approach but wouldn't you get much more in the long run by overwintering bees being able to take spring and fall honey. If you got a package you won't get honey first spring and maybe fall honey. Not to mention the possibility of expansion by dividing hives in spring? Here a nuc goes for about $150.


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## besidethecreek (Jul 10, 2016)

I see your point from a strictly business perspective, but not from a self sustaining perspective. I wouldn't want the needs of my family relying on the ability to get bees from someone else in the spring. 
And you may have a large market of people who love the idea of local honey, but I wouldn't tell them that you are killing millions of bees evey fall to turn a profit. The idea of local honey appeals to people for more then just a sweetener, poor animal husbandry, if we are honest that is what this is, is a business killer for a niche product like this. Word starts getting around and your profit goes down the drain. I personally wouldn't buy from someone who does this.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

besidethecreek said:


> I see your point from a strictly business perspective, but not from a self sustaining perspective. I wouldn't want the needs of my family relying on the ability to get bees from someone else in the spring.
> And you may have a large market of people who love the idea of local honey, but I wouldn't tell them that you are killing millions of bees evey fall to turn a profit. The idea of local honey appeals to people for more then just a sweetener, poor animal husbandry, if we are honest that is what this is, is a business killer for a niche product like this. Word starts getting around and your profit goes down the drain. I personally wouldn't buy from someone who does this.


LOL, you wouldn't buy from people who utilize their resources? 

Sustainable? If I was worried about my family having sweets... I'd not have honey bees. They are foreign imports to this country. For sustainable sweets I'd just go on producing maple syrup as has been done in this area for thousands of years. The Commonwealth decided to implement protectionism and limit production of Maple Syrup for market. Not so with honey as of yet. If they do I'll simply stop providing it. I farm for profit. As far as a business is concerned... My customers are so jaded with the "local" food industry they ask questions. (do you really think there are that many Amish producing billions of tons of peaches and sweet corn?) I answer questions about my produce fully and honestly. They always appreciate it. I don't have to claim things. "Oh, it's organic" , "Oh the Amish grew it", "I never spray, use anti-biotics, or poisons." I sell a fresh well cared for produce and a few other products (like the honey). I produce what does well. I harvest at the right time. I sell it only if it looks and tastes great and can be sold at reasonable price.

FYI at the local health food stores "local" honey sells for 12-14 dollars a pound.  Due note... Per the USDA "Local" means 1000 miles. I sell for half price and I point to the hives... An informed consumer is my best customer.


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

I wonder if you put your hives under a shelter house, open on all four sides? That would help with rain, dew, etc. 

I would think if you develop strains that were prolific for your area you would likely get more honey cause you would have an established hive which would get off to a much quicker start in the spring. 

I think there is a balance of ventilation and insulation that helps a hive make it thru winter. Don't know if it true, but some beekeepers think that when bees have a hive in a hollow tree, it has about four inches of wood protecting it, about an R5-6. Hive beetles can be controlled with oil trays(freeman trays) and mites can be helped with a smaller bee and good genes. I'm new to beekeeping and my first goal is get strains that will be productive in my local area, climate.

I hope that you can find the means to overwinter bees, we need better strains out there.

If you don't feed or treat, you might get even a higher premium for you honey than you currently get, giving you a better profit margin.

Good luck, Jeff


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