# Too much twist??



## beakhouse (Jan 24, 2014)

When spinning on a wheel (as opposed to a drop spindle), my plied yarns come out weighing a ton and are kinda rough to work with on crochet projects. Definitely NOT something I'd want to wear as a scarf or anything next to skin. Am I putting too much twist in or what? It just isn't fluffy and or soft. This happens when I use alpaca or llama, but not so much with wool.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Well it is hard to say without a picture. Alpaca and Llama are slippery fibers to spin and because they don't have the memory of wool they will require a bit extra twist. When you remove your plied skein from the niddy noddy does it hang nicely like a perfect loop or does it twist back on itself? If it hangs nicely you have a balanced yarn, if it twists then you probably have two much twist. Are your singles soft to the touch or do they feel hard, stiff? You need at a minimum just enough twist to hold the fibers together. Depending how long the fibers are, that could be 2-3 twists per inch at a minimum. Play with it!


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## beakhouse (Jan 24, 2014)

It hangs well when it comes off the niddy noddy, but just feels stiff, like I could tie up a boat with it and it wouldn't break. I'll try a little less twist, maybe? and hopefully, that will help. Thanks!


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

agreeing with all Marchwind is asking- and...

what fiber preparation are you spinning from? locks? combed top? roving?

are you stretching, drafting and attenuating your fibers and not allowing twist in the fiber mass until it has been drafted out? This is "worsted" yarn and this may cause smooth singles that are compacted and dense as opposed to fluffy and lofty.

If you want lighter, airier, fluffy and lofty yarns then you want to spin woolen from a woolen preparation. That means you will be spinning yarn and allowing the twist to enter the fiber mass BEFORE you attenuate it (draft it out). Yes, I know that sounds weird - but you draft it out AFTER the twist enters the fiber.

Woolen spinning techniques are often referred to as long draw or supported long draw - and it is quite different than the "inch worm" many folks default to. 

And when you finish (wash, thwack) your woolen yarn, you will be encouraging it to bloom further which adds even more lift and air. 

For a true woolen preparation, you will want to spin from a swirly vortex of fibers - over the fold, or from roving - not combed top (unless you spin the top over the fold or fingertip)

and just in case I have been remiss, WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Slow down your treadling and/or increase your take up. Alpaca & llama needs less twist per inch than wool.
As WIHH mentioned, spinning from the fold will make a big difference also.

Welcome to the fold!


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I also find that for 100% pure alpaca and llama, it likes to be spun more fine. (skinny yarn)
When I try to spin a thicker bulky weight yarn it ends up as you say like "boat rope".

Then there is the fact that alpaca and llama fibers CAN be very coarse and scratchy.
The seconds of the fleece especially. Even some mill prepped stuff.
Not all camelid fiber is equal!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Weighs a ton, could tie up a boat, won't break.

Yep, that's overspun! 

Draft faster, treadle slower (LOTS SLOWER), back the tension on your wheel WAY OFF - like all the way off, completely, then give it just teeny tiny turns until it will JUST allow the leader yarn to be wound onto the bobbin, no more than that.

Your drop spindling experience should tell you what "yarn that holds together nicely" looks and feels like. You can make exactly the same yarn on your wheel as you do on your spindle: the key component in spinning is not the tool, but the hands of the spinner.

Slow it all way down. Until your hands can keep up, you have to go really slowly - fast drafting works best with woolen fibre prep, as WIHH mentioned - which can be combed top held over the finger and spun from the fold, or carded rolags, or processed rovings (not top - top has to be folded and spun from the fold for woolen spinning). Woolen spinning is my favourite - instead of pulling a teeny bit of fibre out and pulling it FORWARD and letting it twist, you pull your fibre supply hand BACKWARD while pinching off the twist, then release the pinch and let the twist into the fibre as you continue to pull backward. When you see that the twist isn't going into the fibre any more, you pinch where it's still 'nice yarn', and let it feed onto the wheel, then repeat over and over. As you get faster, you can draft backwards longer and longer without breaking the rovings and that's the way to spin quickly. 

Worsted spinning ("inchworm") which most people learn first, makes lovely nice fine shiny sturdy yarn ... but I think many new spinners might be happier to start with a short backwards draw rather than short forward, so they can transition into long draw and faster drafting more easily. 

But I am terrifically biased. I only spin worsted when forced to for a class or something. It makes me cranky and cramped and unhappy, so I don't do it. Better for everyone that way.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Out of curiosity, what happens if you take some of your boat rope yarn, wind it into a ball, then "spin it again" (put it back through the orifice and onto the bobbin), but running the wheel backwards?

That'll take out some of the twist. Be interesting to see what happens.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

WELCOME !!! 

I spin as Frazzlehead described , and always have to remind myself to" slow them feet down, ya aint tryin to pedal a bike !! "


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

Welcome aboard, Beakhouse! I am trying to learn to spin, too, and just got my first wheel. Everyone is so helpful!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

I love how Kasota says "first" wheel.

Cause for oh so many of us, it's only the FIRST. More are sure to follow.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Beakhouse welcome to The fold! Sorry for not saying that before. I'm glad you came to join us and I hope some of our ideas have helped.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

frazzlehead said:


> I love how Kasota says "first" wheel.


:sing:

She took right to being enabled and enabling herself! :thumb:


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

oh- and one more thing- when I "overspin" I deliberately "underply" and somehow that all works out. (Conversely, when I underspin, I overply. )


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

> She took right to being enabled and enabling herself!


I had good teachers.


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## beakhouse (Jan 24, 2014)

Thank you! Thank you! for the advice! It looks like I was WAY overspinning it. I kinda had the same problem with wool when I went from drop spindle to The Wheel - it moves so much faster! I think I will play with some that is already spun and see if going backwards will lighten it up a bit. I am so happy to have found kindred souls of fiber (sounds like a weird breakfast cereal). yep yep yep!


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