# Grandma turns in grandson for planning school shooting



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"An 18-year-old high school student in Washington state was arrested this week after his grandmother reportedly found his journal with detailed plans for a school shooting. 

************’s grandmother called 911 on Tuesday, the day before a deadly high school shooting in Florida, saying she believed her grandson had plans with “upcoming and credible threats.” 

Excerpts from the journal detailed how ***** planned to shoot students and use homemade explosives at ACES High School in Everett, Wash., police said."

"When detectives searched the grandmother’s home, they also found an AK-47 hidden in a guitar case and military-style grenades."

From: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...911-after-finding-grandsons-journal-detailing


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Good grandma.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Is it easy for an 18 year old to get military style grenades? What is a practical purpose for owning military style grenades?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

They were inert grenades. Can be purchased at just about any army/navy surplus style store and all over the internet.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> They were inert grenades. Can be purchased at just about any army/navy surplus style store and all over the internet.


How do you know they were inert?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> How do you know they were inert?


I can read!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/340101002


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I can read!


Where does it say inert in the link? I could have missed it...

ETA: Nope, I control F searched for the word "inert" and it's not there.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Other reports have described them as military style inert grenades.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Other reports have described them as military style inert grenades.


Thank you for the clarification. I've only read the article I linked.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where does it say inert in the link? I could have missed it...
> 
> ETA: Nope, I control F searched for the word "inert" and it's not there.


Paragraph beginning with “Prosecutors”


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

"Last fall, a Mississippi bail bondsman and frequent YouTube vlogger noticed an alarming comment left on one of his videos. 'I'm going to be a professional school shooter,' said a user named Nikolas Cruz," Buzzfeed reported.

Bennight told the FBI. "They came to my office the next morning and asked me if I knew anything about the person," Bennight said. "I didn't. They took a copy of the screenshot and that was the last I heard from them."

But right after the shooting, the FBI got in touch with Bennight. "I think we spoke with you in the past about a complaint that you made about someone making a comment on your YouTube channel," an FBI agent said in a phone message. "I just wanted to follow up with you on that and ask you a question with something that's come up, if you wouldn't mind giving me a ring."

https://www.dailywire.com/news/2718...m_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Good for Grandma!

And I have an inert grenade on my desk that has a sign saying 

complaint department
Please take a number 

With a metal tag and a 1 attached to the pin. I picked it up at a novelty shop.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Good for Grandma!
> 
> And I have an inert grenade on my desk that has a sign saying
> 
> ...


So it's a "flash bang" or it just does nothing when the pin is pulled? I'm not familiar (at all) with this sort of thing.

I agree that Grandma did the right thing, I wouldn't want to be her tho the pain must be incredible.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> So it's a "flash bang" or it just does nothing when the pin is pulled? I'm not familiar (at all) with this sort of thing.


Does nothing. The meaning of inert.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> So it's a "flash bang" or it just does nothing when the pin is pulled? I'm not familiar (at all) with this sort of thing.
> 
> I agree that Grandma did the right thing, I wouldn't want to be her tho the pain must be incredible.


It does nothing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Does nothing. The meaning of inert.


Thanks. When I Google inert military style grenade it does indicate "flash bangs".


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So it's a "flash bang" or it just does nothing when the pin is pulled? I'm not familiar (at all) with this sort of thing.
> 
> I agree that Grandma did the right thing, I wouldn't want to be her tho the pain must be incredible.


They take excess grenades and drill a hole in the bottom and let out the explosive material. The hole drill is so large that you cannot repair it.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

And this is proof that the news can spin it anyway they want and people who don’t know about the stuff keep passing it as facts instead of researching it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> And this is proof that the news can spin it anyway they want and people who don’t know about the stuff keep passing it as facts instead of researching it.


Who passed it on? I asked questions, like any normal person who didn't have a clue about "military style grenades".


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> So it's a "flash bang" or it just does nothing when the pin is pulled? I'm not familiar (at all) with this sort of thing.


"Inert": Fake, dummy, replica, not armed, etc.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> How do you know they were inert?


Because he wasn't charged with illegal possession of weapons of mass destruction.
You can buy the dummies most anywhere:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Dummy+Grenade&FORM=HDRSC1


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Who passed it on? I asked questions, like any normal person who didn't have a clue about "military style grenades".


Read the last paragraph of your OP. I understand you asked questions. You also asked how hard it is to get military style grenades and then asked the purpose. No where in your article does it mention inert, which is why you posted bum scoop.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

That had to be hard for Grandma but I'm glad she did it


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> military *style* grenades


I think of those as being like "chicken *style* eggs". 
They look good in Easter baskets and can be filled with candy.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

They catch a lot before the carnage..

On the day a Florida gunman with an AR-15 murdered 17 at a Broward County high school, New York cops and federal agents were interviewing a student at an Upper Manhattan high school who said a teacher had paid her and a classmate $50 an hour to empty black powder from fireworks.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-six-words-that-snared-bronx-twins-in-alleged-bomb-plot


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The sheriff says his department and the Mammoth Spring Police Department learned Tuesday of an active shooter situation. The investigation showed it was to take place Wednesday at Mammoth Spring High School.

Law enforcement has not released the name of the suspect.

http://www.ky3.com/content/news/Pol...-threat-in-Mammoth-Spring-Ark--474192193.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A Broome High School student in South Carolina was arrested after he shared a Snapchat photo of himself holding what appears to be an assault rifle. The caption reads, "Round 2 of Florida tomorrow."

This link has others being stopped.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...day-florida-school-shooting-article-1.3822699


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Thank you for pointing out how many school shootings have been stopped, HDRider. How many more are out there brewing? How many more kids have to die or be injured before this country realizes we need common sense gun laws?

There have been EIGHT school shootings so far this year, is that too many for you, HDRider? Just how many dead kids is enough for you to admit something needs to be done? I'm a gun owner, and I can understand that we need to gun control laws, why can't you?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you for pointing out how many school shootings have been stopped, HDRider. How many more are out there brewing? How many more kids have to die or be injured before this country realizes we need common sense gun laws?
> 
> There have been EIGHT school shootings so far this year, is that too many for you, HDRider? Just how many dead kids is enough for you to admit something needs to be done? I'm a gun owner, and I can understand that we need to gun control laws, why can't you?


You assume a lot.

No one knows how many are brewing.
Everyone knows we need common sense laws. What new law do we need?
One shooting is too many for me IP.
I admit something needs to be done today.
I too believe we need gun control laws. I do not know what new ones we need. What new ones do you think we need?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you for pointing out how many school shootings have been stopped, HDRider. How many more are out there brewing? How many more kids have to die or be injured before this country realizes we need common sense gun laws?
> 
> There have been EIGHT school shootings so far this year, is that too many for you, HDRider? Just how many dead kids is enough for you to admit something needs to be done? I'm a gun owner, and I can understand that we need to gun control laws, why can't you?


Maybe the ones on the books should be enforced. Do you really think banning high cap mags will solve anything? How about slide fire stocks? In a society that is allowed to own gun there will be tragedies without those guns there will be genocide.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> You assume a lot.
> 
> No one knows how many are brewing.
> Everyone knows we need common sense laws. What new law do we need?
> ...


Number one- treatment for mental health, ongoing, expensive treatment for mental health issues that start with testing in kindergarten and periodic testing there after. Not all mass shooters are mentally ill, but a majority of them are. 

Number two- get guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, right now it's completely legal and has been since the repeal last year. 

Number three- background checks, and real paperwork to buy guns. This should take some time to do a through job. 

There's a start, what do you suggest? Surely you have ideas?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Number one- treatment for mental health, ongoing, expensive treatment for mental health issues that start with testing in kindergarten and periodic testing there after. Not all mass shooters are mentally ill, but a majority of them are.
> 
> Number two- get guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, right now it's completely legal and has been since the repeal last year.
> 
> ...


Those are good.

I don't have any ideas for new laws. What you said suits me.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Number one- treatment for mental health, ongoing, expensive treatment for mental health issues that start with testing in kindergarten and periodic testing there after. Not all mass shooters are mentally ill, but a majority of them are.
> 
> Number two- get guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, right now it's completely legal and has been since the repeal last year.
> 
> ...



Test every child for mental illness and test them periodically throughout school? Really? Administered by whom? And the results of these tests are stored and accessed where and by whom? And for how long?

No real problem with removing guns from the mentally ill but the practicality of it is next to impossible. 

Define thorough? The Florida shooter went through the background check. It is interesting that had he bought a handgun he would have had to wait three days rather than walking out with it.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Number one- treatment for mental health, ongoing, expensive treatment for mental health issues that start with testing in kindergarten and periodic testing there after. Not all mass shooters are mentally ill, but a majority of them are.
> 
> Number two- get guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, right now it's completely legal and has been since the repeal last year.
> 
> ...


Could you give more info on 2? What was repealed? I don't remember a repeal?

As to 1- I don't mind testing as long as there is a clear appeal process with multiple doctors to hear an appeal if the parents want it.

As to 3- I would not mind a waiting period of a reasonable time frame for purchases.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Test every child for mental illness and test them periodically throughout school? Really? Administered by whom? And the results of these tests are stored and accessed where and by whom? And for how long?
> 
> No real problem with removing guns from the mentally ill but the practicality of it is next to impossible.
> 
> Define thorough? The Florida shooter went through the background check. It is interesting that had he bought a handgun he would have had to wait three days rather than walking out with it.


What are your suggestions?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Test every child for mental illness and test them periodically throughout school? Really? Administered by whom? And the results of these tests are stored and accessed where and by whom? And for how long?
> 
> No real problem with removing guns from the mentally ill but the practicality of it is next to impossible.
> 
> Define thorough? The Florida shooter went through the background check. It is interesting that had he bought a handgun he would have had to wait three days rather than walking out with it.


I believe that you know that there are psychological tests in schools now. Where are they stored currently? Those that trigger questions on those tests need further work up. Psychiatrists can over see psychologists who will do the bulk of the therapy for those children that show need. If mental health issues are caught early, and treated we may not have the problems we do now.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> What are your suggestions?


Honestly, I have none.

I don’t think potentially violating more rights helps. There’s no real and practicable way to control the 270M+/- guns that are present in the US today. There’s no real and practicable way to keep a gun out of the hands of anyone with a real desire to get one.

I’ll agree that we need to do a better job with mental health treatment in this country but that should be a goal not tied to keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. That should be a byproduct of better mental health care but to make that the goal of better mental health care tilts the scale in a way that I can’t agree with.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Honestly, I have none.
> 
> I don’t think potentially violating more rights helps. There’s no real and practicable way to control the 270M+/- guns that are present in the US today. There’s no real and practicable way to keep a gun out of the hands of anyone with a real desire to get one.
> 
> I’ll agree that we need to do a better job with mental health treatment in this country but that should be a goal not tied to keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. That should be a byproduct of better mental health care but to make that the goal of better mental health care tilts the scale in a way that I can’t agree with.


Do you consider psychological testing (which is done already) a violation of rights? I consider it diagnosis of a possible disease, such as blood testing. 

I don't think there is a practical way either, but treatment of the issue that is a major component may help before it even gets to the get hold of a gun and shoot a lot of people stage. 

To me, better mental health treatment is a win-win.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you consider psychological testing (which is done already) a violation of rights? I consider it diagnosis of a possible disease, such as blood testing.
> 
> I don't think there is a practical way either, but treatment of the issue that is a major component may help before it even gets to the get hold of a gun and shoot a lot of people stage.
> 
> To me, better mental health treatment is a win-win.


I asked you some specific questions about that testing. Answer those questions and I’ll address yours.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Number one- treatment for mental health, ongoing, expensive treatment for mental health issues that *start with testing in kindergarten and periodic testing there after.* Not all mass shooters are mentally ill, but a majority of them are.
> 
> Number two- get guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, right now it's completely legal and has been since the repeal last year.
> 
> ...


you don’t think just randomly testing kids is a violation of their rights? You of all people should be against that. 

Do you have any idea most states process for getting a conceal permit? It’s more intense than a background check by a long shot. Those who have theirs are documented more than anyone else.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

When I was in high school there were councilors that could guide students to help, but only if they go to see them. I think middle schools and probably elementary schools have them now too.
Screening could be as simple as having a Dr. asking every child "how are things going for you" twice a year, or more with the confidence of privacy, and provide a safe place to simply check in at any time. Parents can give permission to allow the visits/screening or not. If there are red flags they could be guided to treatment, or therapy, early on.
I think some know there is something wrong with them, or their children, but don't know where to turn to take the first step to getting help.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> I asked you some specific questions about that testing. Answer those questions and I’ll address yours.


I'm sorry, can you repeat your questions? Were they on this thread or one of the others?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry, can you repeat your questions? Were they on this thread or one of the others?


They were in my response to your proposal in this thread.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Test every child for mental illness and test them periodically throughout school? Really? Administered by whom? And the results of these tests are stored and accessed where and by whom? And for how long?
> 
> No real problem with removing guns from the mentally ill but the practicality of it is next to impossible.
> 
> Define thorough? The Florida shooter went through the background check. It is interesting that had he bought a handgun he would have had to wait three days rather than walking out with it.





Irish Pixie said:


> I believe that you know that there are psychological tests in schools now. Where are they stored currently? Those that trigger questions on those tests need further work up. Psychiatrists can over see psychologists who will do the bulk of the therapy for those children that show need. If mental health issues are caught early, and treated we may not have the problems we do now.


Review the NY Safe Law for further information on gun ownership regulations and how the mentally ill are impacted, it's a start. 

There is psychological testing now, I assume (I don't know) that those tests are kept confidential due to HIPPA law. They would continue to be kept confidential due to HIPPA law, I presume. HIPPA isn't going away anytime soon. Administered and scored by Psychiatrists and psychologists. 

My premise is if mental illnesses are treated early we may not have the more serious issues later.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Review the NY Safe Law for further information on gun ownership regulations and how the mentally ill are impacted, it's a start.
> 
> There is psychological testing now, I assume (I don't know) that those tests are kept confidential due to HIPPA law. They would continue to be kept confidential due to HIPPA law, I presume. HIPPA isn't going away anytime soon. Administered and scored by Psychiatrists and psychologists.
> 
> My premise is if mental illnesses are treated early we may not have the more serious issues later.


You mean the severe infringement of the second amendment? Because that’s what it is.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> You mean the severe infringement of the second amendment? Because that’s what it is.


Are you saying the 2nd Amendment is more important to you than people? How about your family, is it more important than they are?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

it isn't an either or.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> it isn't an either or.


To you it might not be...


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you saying the 2nd Amendment is more important to you than people? How about your family, is it more important than they are?


I use the second to protect my family because the police can’t be there for 30 minutes minimum. Is your right to free speech more important than lives and dignity?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Laws do not change a heart. Laws do not fix mental illness or evil. Regardless of where you stand politically, this is not a gun issue.
Some of these mass murderers are giving the mentally disabled a bad name.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Review the NY Safe Law for further information on gun ownership regulations and how the mentally ill are impacted, it's a start.
> 
> There is psychological testing now, I assume (I don't know) that those tests are kept confidential due to HIPPA law. They would continue to be kept confidential due to HIPPA law, I presume. HIPPA isn't going away anytime soon. Administered and scored by Psychiatrists and psychologists.
> 
> My premise is if mental illnesses are treated early we may not have the more serious issues later.


You’ve asserted repeatedly that there is psychological testing now. Some links to the extent of that testing would be helpful. I’m aware that parents can currently request certain evaluations but that’s quite different than administering tests to every student on a periodical basis. When you can get back to me with specifics on how your proposal would work I’d be interested in hearing them and further commenting on why I may or may not support them. I’m not really interested in what you presume to be true about privacy and confidentiality. I’m interested in the real life ramifications. For example, it seems to me that since such information is only to be shared between the health care provider and patient it would go no further without the students or the students parents permission and upon reaching the age of majority the student could request all such records be sealed or destroyed to protect their privacy.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> You’ve asserted repeatedly that there is psychological testing now. Some links to the extent of that testing would be helpful. I’m aware that parents can currently request certain evaluations but that’s quite different than administering tests to every student on a periodical basis. When you can get back to me with specifics on how your proposal would work I’d be interested in hearing them and further commenting on why I may or may not support them. I’m not really interested in what you presume to be true about privacy and confidentiality. I’m interested in the real life ramifications. For example, it seems to me that since such information is only to be shared between the health care provider and patient it would go no further without the students or the students parents permission and upon reaching the age of majority the student could request all such records be sealed or destroyed to protect their privacy.


There could be required consent to be allowed to attend public school. Don't you have to be immunized to go to PS?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Ole pixie, do really believe that disarming law abiding citizens will prevent another crime? Criminals do not care about laws, they will get a gun and do what they want with it. It’s common sense.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Freedom of choice... If I was fighting for life and especially children's life I'd also be fighting for choice of life over abortion instead of just choice.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> Laws do not change a heart. Laws do not fix mental illness or evil. Regardless of where you stand politically, this is not a gun issue.
> Some of these mass murderers are giving the mentally disabled a bad name.


Treatment of mental illness will help, most mass shooters have some sort of mental illness. Could some of the killing be prevented by better mental illness treatment? Very likely. 

It is a gun issue, a mental health issue, a societal issue, a human issue. It effects ever single American, every day.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> Freedom of choice... If I was fighting for life and especially children's life I'd also be fighting for choice of life over abortion instead of just choice.


So you're working on getting this one moved or deleted too? Lead on MacDuff...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So you're working on getting this one moved or deleted too? Lead on MacDuff...


Like you did mine


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I use the second to protect my family because the police can’t be there for 30 minutes minimum. Is your right to free speech more important than lives and dignity?


Answer the question


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> So you're working on getting this one moved or deleted too? Lead on MacDuff...



Don't be a victim. I was just pointing out the obvious


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you saying the 2nd Amendment is more important to you than people? How about your family, is it more important than they are?





GTX63 said:


> it isn't an either or.





Irish Pixie said:


> To you it might not be...





oneraddad said:


> Freedom of choice... If I was fighting for life and especially children's life I'd also be fighting for choice of life over abortion instead of just choice.





Irish Pixie said:


> So you're working on getting this one moved or deleted too? Lead on MacDuff...


That's the problem with either/or ultimatums isn't it?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Answer the question


I did. I USE THE SECOND AMENDMENT TO PROTECT MY FAMILY. Your turn.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> You’ve asserted repeatedly that there is psychological testing now. Some links to the extent of that testing would be helpful. I’m aware that parents can currently request certain evaluations but that’s quite different than administering tests to every student on a periodical basis. When you can get back to me with specifics on how your proposal would work I’d be interested in hearing them and further commenting on why I may or may not support them. I’m not really interested in what you presume to be true about privacy and confidentiality. I’m interested in the real life ramifications. For example, it seems to me that since such information is only to be shared between the health care provider and patient it would go no further without the students or the students parents permission and upon reaching the age of majority the student could request all such records be sealed or destroyed to protect their privacy.


Nope. You just want to play, and I don't feel like it. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. If you're truly interested here is a link: https://www.google.com/search?q=psy...j69i57j0l4.12952j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 

Mental health plays a huge role in mass shootings, and I gave my opinion on what should be done.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

And pretty much everything else too.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. You just want to play, and I don't feel like it. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. If you're truly interested here is a link: https://www.google.com/search?q=psy...j69i57j0l4.12952j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Mental health plays a huge role in mass shootings, and I gave my opinion on what should be done.


So you don’t value free speech? Interesting....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> And pretty much everything else too.


It absolutely does, and it's been stigmatized and ignored for too long in this country. We need better mental health treatment now.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> So you don’t value free speech? Interesting....


Why do most of your posts contain outright lies or what you want someone else's post to say? Either way it's unethical.

ETA: This is a rhetorical question.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

unethical < rude obnoxious


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. You just want to play, and I don't feel like it. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. If you're truly interested here is a link: https://www.google.com/search?q=psy...j69i57j0l4.12952j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Mental health plays a huge role in mass shootings, and I gave my opinion on what should be done.


No, I don’t want to play. What I’d like are fully thought out and fleshed out ideas. You provided a nice link to a search page that links to many articles that advocate that parents get testing for their children. I can’t argue with that. I can argue against making such testing mandatory and ongoing without knowing exactly how the results of those tests will be used. Because little Jimmy acted out in third grade and was referred to a psychologist he should never own a gun? Or never get security clearance that might allow him to pursue certain career paths? How long is a permanent record permanent? It’s your idea. Explain it and defend it.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why do most of your posts contain outright lies or what you want someone else's post to say? Either way it's unethical.
> 
> ETA: This is a rhetorical question.


So answer the question. If it’s a lie.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> No, I don’t want to play. What I’d like are fully thought out and fleshed out ideas. You provided a nice link to a search page that links to many articles that advocate that parents get testing for their children. I can’t argue with that. I can argue against making such testing mandatory and ongoing without knowing exactly how the results of those tests will be used. Because little Jimmy acted out in third grade and was referred to a psychologist he should never own a gun? Or never get security clearance that might allow him to pursue certain career paths? How long is a permanent record permanent? It’s your idea. Explain it and defend it.


The testing is in place now, I don't know if a parent can request it not be done or if it's mandatory, and I don't really care. It should be mandatory, in my opinion. The testing shouldn't be used to deny anything, it should used a guideline to further help, again in my opinion. If everyone is tested, no one is singled out. 

My opinion is that if there is significant mental illness it should be followed into adulthood, less than that should be a sealed as a juvenile record. I think that's the regulation now. 

The bottom line is that if little Jeffrey shows an inclination toward a mental illness in third grade through testing, it's investigated further, and there are definite signs in fourth grade, and he gets the help he needs so he remains productive is a good thing. Again, in my opinion. 

I guess it's just easier to repeat, "I don't know" over and over...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> The testing is in place now, *I don't know* if a parent can request it not be done or if it's mandatory, and *I don't really care.* It should be mandatory, in my opinion. The testing shouldn't be used to deny anything, it should used a guideline to further help, again in my opinion. If everyone is tested, no one is singled out.
> 
> My opinion is that if there is significant mental illness it should be followed into adulthood, less than that should be a sealed as a juvenile record. I think that's the regulation now.
> 
> ...


What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?
I don't know and I don't care.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Forced psych evaluations.....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?
> I don't know and I don't care.


What an absolutely pathetic post... Nothing on the topic, only attacking the poster.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> The testing is in place now, I don't know if a parent can request it not be done or if it's mandatory, and I don't really care. It should be mandatory, in my opinion. The testing shouldn't be used to deny anything, it should used a guideline to further help, again in my opinion. If everyone is tested, no one is singled out.
> 
> My opinion is that if there is significant mental illness it should be followed into adulthood, less than that should be a sealed as a juvenile record. I think that's the regulation now.
> 
> ...


What testing is done now? I don’t need more links to the benefits of such testing. Testing to decide vocational options or college compatibility is far different than testing for the types of psychological problems you’re talking about and I can find nowhere, including my local school system, where such tests are administered routinely and on an ongoing basis to all students. Maybe you can show me where they are.

You say testing shouldn’t be used to deny anything but you would use such tests as the basis of denying gun ownership. 

Again, I have no problem with Jimmy being tested if his parents think it appropriate and getting treatment if they think that is appropriate. I do have a problem with the government mandating such testing and mandating such treatment absent some underlying reason for it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> Forced psych evaluations.....


May I ask why you continually post snippets of statements but nothing that truly points to your position? It's annoying, and I can guess so it's you don't have to fully articulate your opinion on any subject, which is cowardly in my opinion.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> What testing is done now? I don’t need more links to the benefits of such testing. Testing to decide vocational options or college compatibility is far different than testing for the types of psychological problems you’re talking about and I can find nowhere, including my local school system, where such tests are administered routinely and on an ongoing basis to all students. Maybe you can show me where they are.
> 
> You say testing shouldn’t be used to deny anything but you would use such tests as the basis of denying gun ownership.
> 
> Again, I have no problem with Jimmy being tested if his parents think it appropriate and getting treatment if they think that is appropriate. I do have a problem with the government mandating such testing and mandating such treatment absent some underlying reason for it.


I don't know what specific testing is done now. Nope, I never said tests should deny gun ownership. OK. I don't have a problem with mandatory psychological testing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> What an absolutely pathetic post... Nothing on the topic, only attacking the poster.


Just consider it an opportunity for self awareness and improvement. Stay positive.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Just consider it an opportunity for self awareness and improvement. Stay positive.


You're in attack mode today aren't you? Tsk Tsk.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> May I ask why you continually post snippets of statements but nothing that truly points to your position? It's annoying, and I can guess so it's you don't have to fully articulate your opinion on any subject, which is cowardly in my opinion.


I think it is called irony. I am never really sure.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't know what specific testing is done now. Nope, I never said tests should deny gun ownership. OK. I don't have a problem with mandatory psychological testing.


And I do have big problems with mandatory testing with no underlying basis for it.

You’ve said the tests should be ongoing and used as the basis for treatment. You’ve advocated for more thorough background checks. If these tests, results and treatments aren’t going to be used as the possible basis for denying future gun ownership what does one thing have to do with the other? Why advocate for such things when talking about how to limit gun violence or keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> And I do have big problems with mandatory testing with no underlying basis for it.
> 
> You’ve said the tests should be ongoing and used as the basis for treatment. You’ve advocated for more thorough background checks. If these tests, results and treatments aren’t going to be used as the possible basis for denying future gun ownership what does one thing have to do with the other? Why advocate for such things when talking about how to limit gun violence or keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill?


OK. And I have said that I don't have an issue with it. Who's right? Or is it a difference of opinion?

IF. IF. IF. IF the testing (early testing?) indicates further investigation, that investigation MAY be the basis for denying gun ownership, I prefer to think it would be the expertise of the Psychiatrist but you can IF anything you want.

I advocate for mandatory testing, possible further investigation and treatment in the hopes of catching that kid or young adult before they contemplate violence. You don't have to agree.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Irish Pixie said:


> May I ask why you continually post snippets of statements but nothing that truly points to your position? It's annoying, and I can guess so it's you don't have to fully articulate your opinion on any subject, which is cowardly in my opinion.


Mandating and searching for one's "inclinations" should be chilling if thought thru.
My opinion is that throwing karp on the wall and looking for the stickiest one just makes for a nasty room.
No consensus is laid to the cause, yet the rush is on for a fix. The sacrifice of liberty for a little security is how that one fellow said it.
We know the hows, the wheres, the whens. The issue with the why seems to be diagnosed by some as moral, some as mental, some as spiritual, some as social, and some as evil. Find some ground to anchor to and build from there.
Even if you are wrong you won't be baseless.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> Mandating and searching for one's "inclinations" should be chilling if thought thru.
> My opinion is that throwing karp on the wall and looking for the stickiest one just makes for a nasty room.
> No consensus is laid to the cause, yet the rush is on for a fix. The sacrifice of liberty for a little security is how that one fellow said it.
> We know the hows, the wheres, the whens. The issue with the why seems to be diagnosed by some as moral, some as mental, some as spiritual, some as social, and some as evil. Find some ground to anchor to and build from there.
> Even if you are wrong you won't be baseless.


Thank you for fully articulating your stance in this post. I can agree with some of it.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> OK. And I have said that I don't have an issue with it. Who's right? Or is it a difference of opinion?
> 
> IF. IF. IF. IF the testing (early testing?) indicates further investigation, that investigation MAY be the basis for denying gun ownership, I prefer to think it would be the expertise of the Psychiatrist but you can IF anything you want.
> 
> *I advocate for mandatory testing, possible further investigation and treatment in the hopes of catching that kid or young adult before they contemplate violence.* You don't have to agree.


So it’s ok to violate the rights of an individual that’s not you is what your saying.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

We used to have reasonable gun laws. It went something like "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" I liked that one. The further away from that we have gotten the worse things get.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> We used to have reasonable gun laws. It went something like "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" I liked that one. The further away from that we have gotten the worse things get.


Study your history, many towns had much stricter gun laws than are allowed today.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A North Little Rock High School student is facing charges after the school's staff found a gun and extra rounds in his book bag Wednesday afternoon.

The superintendent said an anonymous source reported that 17-year-old Kyrin Lebron, had a weapon and had been showing it off in the boys restroom.

School staff immediately searched the student, and according to the superintendent, quickly diffused the situation.


http://katv.com/news/local/north-little-rock-student-arrested-for-bringing-gun-to-school


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

The psychological testing that occurs in schools is not what many of you seem to think it is. Not even close. It is NOT testing to screen for a mental illness. It is cognitive and achievement (reading, writing, math) to test for cognitive impairments, learning disabilities, etc. This testing looks at things such as memory, processing speed, verbal comprehension, etc. We cannot test any student without written consent from the parents. The testing serves to determine whether a student qualifies for special education not whether if a mental illness is present. That is completely out of the purview of the school system.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where does it say inert in the link? I could have missed it...
> 
> ETA: Nope, I control F searched for the word "inert" and it's not there.


I had no problem finding it:

"...Prosecutors allege O'Connor had inert grenades in his bedroom that he planned to fill with black powder along with the AK-47 hidden in a guitar case."

WWW


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> What an absolutely pathetic post... Nothing on the topic, only attacking the poster.


Don't blame me, it's all the material I had to work with.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> The psychological testing that occurs in schools is not what many of you seem to think it is. Not even close. It is NOT testing to screen for a mental illness. It is cognitive and achievement (reading, writing, math) to test for cognitive impairments, learning disabilities, etc. This testing looks at things such as memory, processing speed, verbal comprehension, etc. We cannot test any student without written consent from the parents. The testing serves to determine whether a student qualifies for special education not whether if a mental illness is present. That is completely out of the purview of the school system.


It needs to go beyond that point and address mental health issues. 

May I ask a professional question? Actually if any teacher wants to answer. If a school teacher notices a mental health problem in a student, what happens? Is it a mandatory reporting issue?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> It needs to go beyond that point and address mental health issues.
> 
> May I ask a professional question? Actually if any teacher wants to answer. If a school teacher notices a mental health problem in a student, what happens? Is it a mandatory reporting issue?


No, suspected mental health issues are not mandatory reporting issues by law here. However, in practice, at least where I work, if we suspect a mental health issue, we immediately contact the parent. We have no power to require parents to do anything about it though. My district has close working relationships with a couple of community mental health agencies and we refer parents to them so that they can have their children evaluated and obtain counseling. We can’t force it though. Sometimes, if the family receives state assistance, we can have the DHS worker (we have a DHS office located in each school) apply a little pressure to make it happen but we aren’t always successful.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, suspected mental health issues are not mandatory reporting issues by law here. However, in practice, at least where I work, if we suspect a mental health issue, we immediately contact the parent. We have no power to require parents to do anything about it though. My district has close working relationships with a couple of community mental health agencies and we refer parents to them so that they can have their children evaluated and obtain counseling. We can’t force it though. Sometimes, if the family receives state assistance, we can have the DHS worker (we have a DHS office located in each school) apply a little pressure to make it happen but we aren’t always successful.


Thank you for the real information, and I appreciate your response. 

This is where we need to work folks. Mental health starts at an early age, treatment does work, and we may be able to "fix" some of this before there are mass killings. It's not going to be easy, and it's not going to be cheap.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you for the real information, and I appreciate your response.
> 
> This is where we need to work folks. Mental health starts at an early age, treatment does work, and we may be able to "fix" some of this before there are mass killings. It's not going to be easy, and it's not going to be cheap.


You are welcome. You are absolutely right that mental health starts early. We have a student right now who has (this year) brought marajuana to school and attempted to set up another student to take the fall, has brought a knife to school and threatened to kill several other students with it, has told other students he has a gun at home and will bring it to shoot them if they told on him about the knife, has brought drug paraphanalia (empty, thankfully, baggies for packaging) to school, has made graphic sexual (extremely graphic) comments to several classmates, has made death threats to staff and has assaulted staff and students. He is in desperate need of intensive therapy but grandmother refuses. I wish we had some ability to force the issue. 

BTW, he is 8. Think about that for a minute folks. He is doing these things and he is only 8. Without mental health intervention soon, what is he going to be like at 18?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are welcome. You are absolutely right that mental health starts early. We have a student right now who has (this year) brought marajuana to school and attempted to set up another student to take the fall, has brought a knife to school and threatened to kill several other students with it, has told other students he has a gun at home and will bring it to shoot them if they told on him about the knife, has brought drug paraphanalia (empty, thankfully, baggies for packaging) to school, has made graphic sexual (extremely graphic) comments to several classmates, has made death threats to staff and has assaulted staff and students. He is in desperate need of intensive therapy but grandmother refuses. I wish we had some ability to force the issue.
> 
> BTW, he is 8. Think about that for a minute folks. He is doing these things and he is only 8. Without mental health intervention soon, what is he going to be like at 18?


And I've seen kids as young as 5 as inpatients in a psych facility. It happens, and we need better treatment, our kids deserve better.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> And I've seen kids as young as 5 as inpatients in a psych facility. It happens, and we need better treatment, our kids deserve better.


Yep, I am working with a 6 year old who is basically feral. These are the kids the teacher education programs do not prepare you for.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

That is such a sad story of the 8 year old, but also an example of what I've believed in, that you don't just suddenly become a violent person overnight. I think there is such a stigma attached to mental illness that some parents can't/won't accept it.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are welcome. You are absolutely right that mental health starts early. We have a student right now who has (this year) brought marajuana to school and attempted to set up another student to take the fall, has brought a knife to school and threatened to kill several other students with it, has told other students he has a gun at home and will bring it to shoot them if they told on him about the knife, has brought drug paraphanalia (empty, thankfully, baggies for packaging) to school, has made graphic sexual (extremely graphic) comments to several classmates, has made death threats to staff and has assaulted staff and students. He is in desperate need of intensive therapy but grandmother refuses. I wish we had some ability to force the issue.
> 
> BTW, he is 8. Think about that for a minute folks. He is doing these things and he is only 8. Without mental health intervention soon, what is he going to be like at 18?


Thanks for giving factual information. The young person you talk about needs and should have all the help society can bring. But seeking help for an obviously troubled youth is a far cry from mandatory testing for all students. Good luck with your efforts to help.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> Thanks for giving factual information. The young person you talk about needs and should have all the help society can bring. But seeking help for an obviously troubled youth is a far cry from mandatory testing for all students. Good luck with your efforts to help.


Absolutely. Even if the schools wanted to test all students (which we don't), the testing that we do would do nothing for their mental health issues. It isn't that kind of testing. Plus, mandatory testing (in addition to being a huge violation of current law) would overwhelm the system. I work very closely with our psychologist. By our estimate, it takes about 6-8 hours overall to test each student and evaluate the results. That doesn't include consulting with the rest of the team or reporting the results to the parents. Nor does it include creating the educational plan or completing the massive amount of paperwork involved (25-50 page documents per kid depending on how involved the kid's needs are. I think my record was a 62 page document for a kid). I teach in a building of about 500 students. I think those folks pushing for mandatory testing just don't understand what the testing is and what a huge amount of time it takes.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

SLFarmMI said:


> Absolutely. Even if the schools wanted to test all students (which we don't), the testing that we do would do nothing for their mental health issues. It isn't that kind of testing. Plus, mandatory testing (in addition to being a huge violation of current law) would overwhelm the system. I work very closely with our psychologist. By our estimate, it takes about 6-8 hours overall to test each student and evaluate the results. That doesn't include consulting with the rest of the team or reporting the results to the parents. Nor does it include creating the educational plan or completing the massive amount of paperwork involved (25-50 page documents per kid depending on how involved the kid's needs are. I think my record was a 62 page document for a kid). I teach in a building of about 500 students. I think those folks pushing for mandatory testing just don't understand what the testing is and what a huge amount of time it takes.


Thanks for the work you do.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Best you all see what the ACLU has to say. They are no friend of 'civil liberties' .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> Absolutely. Even if the schools wanted to test all students (which we don't), the testing that we do would do nothing for their mental health issues. It isn't that kind of testing. Plus, mandatory testing (in addition to being a huge violation of current law) would overwhelm the system. I work very closely with our psychologist. By our estimate, it takes about 6-8 hours overall to test each student and evaluate the results. That doesn't include consulting with the rest of the team or reporting the results to the parents. Nor does it include creating the educational plan or completing the massive amount of paperwork involved (25-50 page documents per kid depending on how involved the kid's needs are. I think my record was a 62 page document for a kid). I teach in a building of about 500 students. I think those folks pushing for mandatory testing just don't understand what the testing is and what a huge amount of time it takes.


I don't understand what is involved, and I completely admit it, but it's still something that will need to be addressed. Perhaps only testing for at risk or kids that show a need? The bottom line is that mental illness manifests early, and to properly treat it we have to address it early. 

I don't have it all figured out, but I do know it's an issue.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't understand what is involved, and I completely admit it, but it's still something that will need to be addressed. Perhaps only testing for at risk or kids that show a need? The bottom line is that mental illness manifests early, and to properly treat it we have to address it early.
> 
> I don't have it all figured out, but I do know it's an issue.


Um, even if you are looking at only at risk kids that would be a high proportion of my building. And it isn't the type of testing that is available through the schools. We don't do that kind of testing. It is way, way outside the purview of the schools. We can only refer to outside agencies which we do but we can't force the parents to follow through. Nor can we legally exclude a kid from school until the parents follow through.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> Um, even if you are looking at only at risk kids that would be a high proportion of my building. And it isn't the type of testing that is available through the schools. We don't do that kind of testing. It is way, way outside the purview of the schools. We can only refer to outside agencies which we do but we can't force the parents to follow through. Nor can we legally exclude a kid from school until the parents follow through.


Do you see any other way of identifying kids that are at risk for mass violence? Regulations need to change, perhaps referrals to an outside agency, additional personnel, something... We can't live like this, and mental health is key.

ETA: You as a teacher are on the front line so to speak, what do you suggest?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you see any other way of identifying kids that are at risk for mass violence? Regulations need to change, perhaps referrals to an outside agency, additional personnel, something... We can't live like this, and mental health is key.
> 
> ETA: You as a teacher are on the front line so to speak, what do you suggest?


Half of all chronic mental illness begins by age 14; three-quarters by age 24. Despite effective treatment, there are long delays—sometimes decades—between the first appearance of symptoms and when people get help

https://www.nami.org/learn-more/mental-health-by-the-numbers

Bunked your theory of mandatory testing starting in kindergarten. Not to mention it is a violation of individual rights.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you see any other way of identifying kids that are at risk for mass violence? Regulations need to change, perhaps referrals to an outside agency, additional personnel, something... We can't live like this, and mental health is key.
> 
> ETA: You as a teacher are on the front line so to speak, what do you suggest?


Sure, mental health is a key but you can’t force a parent to get their child counseling. Nor should mental health services be forced on the schools to provide. I am not a mental health professional - I don’t have the education, training or experience to be one. We are not equipped for that and, even if we were, parents have the right to decide if they want their children to have those services. 

Here are some things that parents could do to help:

Teach your children to be kind to all. Even the “weird kid” or the nerdy kid or the kid who smells.
Teach your children how to reach out and form healthy relationships with everyone in their lives. It is human nature to want to form relationships. How many of those mass shooters have been described as “isolated” or “loner”. Everyone needs friends. Teach your children how to be a good friend.
Teach your children that rage, aggression and violence are not appropriate responses to life’s minor setbacks. We, as a society, have taught our children that Anger and violence are appropriate responses to the most minor of offenses. Our children have learned that lesson well and they have taught it to their children and so on. We have to do better. We have to be better. 
Teach your children not to be silent bystanders to acts of bullying. Teach them how to step in and say “enough, this is wrong”. This takes courage—teach your children to be courageous.
If you have weapons in your home, whether it is a gun or a bow or a sword or whatever, teach your children the safe handling of that weapon. And teach them that they are never, ever to pick up a weapon when they are angry, hurt or despondent.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> Sure, mental health is a key but you can’t force a parent to get their child counseling. Nor should mental health services be forced on the schools to provide. I am not a mental health professional - I don’t have the education, training or experience to be one. We are not equipped for that and, even if we were, parents have the right to decide if they want their children to have those services.
> 
> Here are some things that parents could do to help:
> 
> ...


Thank you for responding with your experience.

ETA: How do parents teach what they don't know? In many, many homes none of what you indicated is taught, because the parents are overwhelmed, not educated, and/or angry. I don't mean to come down on you (or anyone else) but I don't know where to even start, but something must be done, and soon.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are welcome. You are absolutely right that mental health starts early. We have a student right now who has (this year) brought marajuana to school and attempted to set up another student to take the fall, has brought a knife to school and threatened to kill several other students with it, has told other students he has a gun at home and will bring it to shoot them if they told on him about the knife, has brought drug paraphanalia (empty, thankfully, baggies for packaging) to school, has made graphic sexual (extremely graphic) comments to several classmates, has made death threats to staff and has assaulted staff and students. He is in desperate need of intensive therapy but grandmother refuses. I wish we had some ability to force the issue.
> 
> BTW, he is 8. Think about that for a minute folks. He is doing these things and he is only 8. Without mental health intervention soon, what is he going to be like at 18?





SLFarmMI said:


> Yep, I am working with a 6 year old who is basically feral. These are the kids the teacher education programs do not prepare you for.



Wow. I know that those kids exist but it still blows my mind to think about it.
That's as scary as being a front line soldier in a war zone, IMO.
I hope for everyone's sake those kids get help and if necessary, separated from those they might harm if they can't be helped.
Either way, I wish you and all in need, the very best in guidance and protection.



SLFarmMI said:


> Um, even if you are looking at only at risk kids that would be a high proportion of my building. And it isn't the type of testing that is available through the schools. We don't do that kind of testing. It is way, way outside the purview of the schools. We can only refer to outside agencies which we do but we can't force the parents to follow through. Nor can we legally exclude a kid from school until the parents follow through.


And that's the sad reality. Just 1 or 2 can be a real handful for the parents, the teachers and all the other professionals that may be involved in getting that child on the right path again.
The only way I could see a practical solution is to divert those kids into a special school with the right resources and personnel to deal with them.
Anything less would be destined to fail, IMO.



Irish Pixie said:


> Do you see any other way of identifying kids that are at risk for mass violence? Regulations need to change, perhaps referrals to an outside agency, additional personnel, something... We can't live like this, and mental health is key.
> 
> ETA: You as a teacher are on the front line so to speak, what do you suggest?


It's kind of like the question, "How do you determine who is a probable danger in a crowd of people?"
There are signs, some more subtle than others, but as we've all heard, even then their own parents or guardians may be the biggest obstacle to doing anything about it.
As far as any legal actions in that case, I'm not even sure if a Baker Act would even be possible without the parent's consent.
The bottom line is, in this world we have to watch our own backs and be aware of what others are doing in order to get through our day safely.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> It's kind of like the question, "How do you determine who is a probable danger in a crowd of people?"
> There are signs, some more subtle than others, but as we've all heard, even then their own parents or guardians may be the biggest obstacle to doing anything about it.
> As far as any legal actions in that case, I'm not even sure if a Baker Act would even be possible without the parent's consent.
> The bottom line is, in this world we have to watch our own backs and be aware of what others are doing in order to get through our day safely.


Often there are signs that a kid needs help and parents do try but it's not easy to access. I have a friend who I've spoken of before and she's raising 4 grandkids who were born crack dependent and at least one of those kids has been a danger to others since the day he started school. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that he will kill someone one day. Up to this point, he's attacked a teacher with a hockey stick, broke another child's arm, been removed from almost every school in the county, broke another kid's leg, beaten his grandmother and a younger sibling on several occasions, has rage issues unlike anything you've ever seen before, no ability to fathom right or wrong or to feel pain or pleasure. There are a few animals who's unexplained deaths seem to point in his direction (by the time he was in the second grade). The house is destroyed by the holes in the walls caused by him kicking, punching or smashing his head into them. 

This behavior is not a discipline issue but a kid that needs serious help and getting him the help he needs isn't easy, it's not going to make a normal person. 

He's no an isolated case and help for kids, even when parents seek it, isn't readily available and the public is often quite critical of the school system when teachers suggest a kid needs help.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wr said:


> Often there are signs that a kid needs help and parents do try but it's not easy to access. I have a friend who I've spoken of before and she's raising 4 grandkids who were born crack dependent and at least one of those kids has been a danger to others since the day he started school. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that he will kill someone one day. Up to this point, he's attacked a teacher with a hockey stick, broke another child's arm, been removed from almost every school in the county, broke another kid's leg, beaten his grandmother and a younger sibling on several occasions, has rage issues unlike anything you've ever seen before, no ability to fathom right or wrong or to feel pain or pleasure. There are a few animals who's unexplained deaths seem to point in his direction (by the time he was in the second grade). The house is destroyed by the holes in the walls caused by him kicking, punching or smashing his head into them.
> 
> This behavior is not a discipline issue but a kid that needs serious help and getting him the help he needs isn't easy, it's not going to make a normal person.
> 
> He's no an isolated case and help for kids, even when parents seek it, isn't readily available and the public is often quite critical of the school system when teachers suggest a kid needs help.


Unfortunately I've seen a few cases over the years like that too.
And it seems to be getting worse.
I wish there *was* a magic pill or something that could make it all stop, I don't think anyone would object to it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Unfortunately I've seen a few cases over the years like that too.
> And it seems to be getting worse.
> I wish there *was* a magic pill or something that could make it all stop, I don't think anyone would object to it.


There is just such a pill..... But parents that would use it would find themselves facing the death penalty themselves!  for whatever reason some people do object.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There is just such a pill..... But parents that would use it would find themselves facing the death penalty themselves!  for whatever reason some people do object.



Naw YH, I'm not talking about kids with normal discipline problems, I was referring to true psychopaths/sociopaths, for lack of a better way stating that deep of a mental illness. If you've ever seen Charles Manson type behavior in a 1st grader you'd never forget it. 
Schizophrenics may end up harming themselves, but it's a small percentage of the mentally ill that want to kill a bunch of other people. And I'm not gonna quibble about whether they actually HAVE a mental defect or just evil, like a serial killer fro example. Whatever label you put on it, it definitely ain't "normal".

*Now, if you were making a wisecrack about using "the pill" NOT to have kids to begin with, I get the joke.


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