# English shep in training - exposure to chicks?



## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Our English shep puppy 8 months, is expected to take over the big shoes of our late Farm Collie in guarding the premises and the flock. She will join her bigger brother, also an English Shep when she's ready. For now, we can't trust her not to chase - and we're altogether unsure how deeply that prey drive is drilled in. 

At present, she's supervised with an E-collar around the flock and we try to work in an hour, daily and improvise a correction in combination with the more aggressive mother hens when the oppty presents just to sink in the notion that 'those birds aren't to be trifled with!'. All this seems to be going in the right direction (it's hard to conquer, though). 

She does have a fascination with chicks. She doesn't want to kill or chase them, (in their immediate presence, doesn't charge or bark) just wants to be close to lick and smell, probably play with, but not aggressive, more curious about them.

My question - in a controlled, supervised environment, given a chick to mull over for a few minutes a day - would this help click in the "oh, I'm supposed to protect this thing" instinct? or otherwise re-instill an interest in playing with birds?

Am new to training farm dogs and am wondering which is better - a total "hands off at all costs - never, never come nose to nose with the livestock" approach as opposed to the softer - "it's okay, so long as your not instigating a chase-scene" 

Really could use an answer to that last question from those of you who have trained farm hounds!
thanks.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I can only give you my experiences in training farm animals. I've had mixed breeds and full breeds, all with "some" prey drive. I've learned by watching the dog interact with fowl (and also in my case with baby goats); also what you observe (and ultimately do) must be connected to that dog's age. Example: A puppy needs more guidance more often than an older dog. An older dog can be corrected once, maybe twice, and that is all it takes; but a puppy needs a longer process of learning due to its limited attention span.

Now with that said, when I train a puppy on my place, I attach its collar/leash to the older dog who is already trained. Then should the puppy start to do something the older dog has already learned not to do, the older dog corrects the puppy and/or simply will not let the puppy get past the distance of the leash should the incident includ a chase of sorts.

When I train a dog "without" another to leash it to, I have to be more diligent and watchful. I keep rolled-up newspaper in places around the farm, which makes them handy should I need one. When I catch the pup doing something inappropriate, I "quickly" grab the rolled up newspaper and hit it with the paper, making loud sounds with that paper without actually hurting the pup; and of course, add my own verbal reprimands.

Now I have a very young LGD (Bulgarian Karakachan) that is going thru her puppy stage. Since she has a different temperament, I cannot attach her with a leash to the collar of my grown dog because my grown dog is NOT as stubborn as the pup and would probably follow the pup should the pup insist on doing something. Also, this pup is not the type of dog that would permit such containment. This means I have to keep a very, very good eye on this pup and be ready to run/yell/whatever whenever I see her acting inappropriately. (I'm fortunate in this regard because she has NOT shown any prey drive at all.) However, when I do see her "playing" in ways I don't like, I sanction her immediately by isolating her for a short period or scolding her in a calm but rough voice. So far this has worked well.

In your case with your pup licking the baby chicks and not hurting them, I would think she was doing real well in that her teeth were not involved. That tells me she is not wanting to hurt them, just doesn't know how to interact with them. Maybe there are others in here who would think that is a terrible thing for a pup to do and may lead to her hurting the chickens; and maybe they're right. However, if she were mine, I would simply watch to find out. If she is controlling herself she certainly needs praise more than a scolding; and being scolded at such times may confuse her. I would wait and watch and let her teach me what she is actually doing before I decided what to do.

Hope this helps give you a few ideas.


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

"...then should the puppy start to do something the older dog has already learned not to do, the older dog corrects the puppy"

I WISH. Our older dog is fine around the poultry, but is such a follower that when she starts chasing, he joins in!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

She is accepting the chicks and if she was going to hurt them she would have already. I have a solid "leave it" on my border collie and this is how I let him know to leave the chickens alone. Of course, he wanted to herd them. He did accept them as belonging to the homestead. 

Sometimes he would run through a group just to see them scatter, though. Boredom is your enemy.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Is the dog chasing them or herding them? With the other dog also being a shepherd, he may not see what the pup is doing as a threat to his charge, but security management of having them all within a certain range of their protection.
Just some thought to consider.


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## ajaxlucy (Jul 18, 2004)

LFRJ said:


> My question - in a controlled, supervised environment, given a chick to mull over for a few minutes a day - would this help click in the "oh, I'm supposed to protect this thing" instinct? or otherwise re-instill an interest in playing with birds?
> QUOTE]
> 
> That's what I've done with my farm collie pups: have them sit or lie down while I hold a chick in my lap. They can sniff it, but no open mouth. When they're calm enough, I hold the chick up to them, put it under their chin, next to their ears, rub alongside the pup's muzzle. Just a minute or two, repeat over a number of days. I also put chicks in a little makeshift run and have the pup just sit and watch them - no joining in allowed. I don't think it makes them protective, but they learn that I don't want them handling or running my chicks.
> ...


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