# for whom ever's sake will make you do it , carry a Knife.



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6006298889001/#sp=show-clips

if your not able to watch the video , a brief explanation a large dog possibly a pit bull is locked onto a mail carriers leg the mail carrier is on the ground on the apron of a suburban Detroit driveway houses lining both sides of the street and the dog won't let go the guy is screaming , hitting at the dog . the dog shakes it's head teeth dug in and the man screams more , a neighbor lady is shouting at the dog , the mail carrier in a moment of clarity follows his training taking what you first think is mace but then are quickly let down that it is his air horn from his mail bag and sounding it right in the dogs face , nothing no change , the video is being taken from a car that stops for this scene. the driver does' want to get involved for fear of getting bit himself but decides he needs to and passes the camera to the passenger whom stays in the car , the driver picks up a trash bin and hits the dog with it , no change , the driver then grabs the "club" steering wheel lock and proceeds to beat the dog with it , at the same time a woman from across the street is hitting the dog with the handle of broom, the first lady trying to help has gone in the house and returned with a leash.

if you thought it took a long time to read that , wow was it a long time to watch the postal worker was on the ground for more than 2 minutes with the dog on video and we have no idea how long before the video starts .
the beating from the club steering wheel lock seemed to after a while broken the dogs hold.
they did then get a leash on it but it was still out of control.


even a screw driver would have worked better than what was used , a knife would have most definitely ended this in seconds with the proper cut.

guns are great if you have them on you but at least have a knife on you or a car/truck knife if you have to go in an out of places that restrict knife carry like a courthouse often.
I can understand guns are often restricted many places you might go like school grounds to pick up kids or grand kids , they represent a fairly significant cost but a good usable knife can be had for 15-20 dollars in a decent sheath.

it is really sad they lady who ran in the house to grab a leash didn't come back with a kitchen knife at least.

even a utility knife would have been better but to have zero tools is just foolish.


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## hiddensprings

I always have a knife in my car, purse, and usually my back pocket. Never really thought about needing it for a dog attack, but I know I always seem to need one.


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## Ryan.

I always carry a spring assisted knife with me that clips onto my belt. Better safe than sorry.


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## Alice In TX/MO

They had the means to stop it sooner, but not the skills.


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## Alice In TX/MO




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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Alice In TX/MO said:


>


Maybe if it were my dog and I was taking it off of someone who had it coming.

he went hands on collar at 10 seconds and had a release at 41 seconds 31 seconds and he had the weight of the dog off the the ground hanging by the collar, he choked up on the collar to put more pressure on the dogs neck than the dogs own weight.
it is a good technique and if I had no knife would probably go there.

but doubtful a 70 year old 95 pound woman has the strength pull a hundred pound dog off like that even with good technique.

what about when your the victim , how do you save yourself when it is one of your arms in it's jaws?

a few years ago my neighbor was walking her dog 2 blocks over when a large Rottweiler about a hundred pounds possibly more that was about even with her for weight attacked her dog she tried to pull it off by it's collar and could not it is probably better that she couldn't it likely would have gone after her if it didn't have her dog to stay locked on , as it was she was bit in the hands and wrists. but mostly it stayed locked on her dog , her dog died.

fastest way to disable nearly anything stick in the side of the neck push out the front and take the wind pipe with both carotid arteries , the air rushes out , the blood runs out and the head flops back like a pez dispenser

you do not cut like in the movies or on TV from the front in a sweeping motion this takes a sharp knife and makes you cut all that fur it takes more strength also, life isn't TV . a knife point penetrates deep with little pressure stab in cut out cutting out is just like a knife in a roast slices easily through not running into fur, 80% of the work is done on the stab the push out just further reduces the time.

if the victim is in to close of proximity and there is just to much movement stick behind each leg slipping between the ribs , get both lungs a long enough blade will reach the heart but it isn't a big target , when in doubt cut , and cut some more big cuts bleed faster than pokes there are still only 3 types of stops Physiological, loss of blood and CNS central nerve system. no matter the animal.

I also prefer fixed blades they don't have to be huge and don't close like folders sometimes can and they are easier to access off handed. but either should be one hand accessible.

something is better than nothing , the post man in the video could have saved himself in a fraction of the time he was on the ground with a 5 dollar utility knife from the hardware store that he could easily justify as necessary to open a package of suspicion. although longer would be better.


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## Grafton County Couple

I carry one daily. Bic pens are also handy for more than writing.


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## oceantoad

I always have a Leatherman around my neck, plus a neck knife. I wear an Esee around the neck most of the time and have a Rat folder or an Esee folder in my left shirt pocket and have a Boker pen in my right shirt pocket.Work on a military post so can't do much more than that. People say they don't know how I can wear that much crap around my neck. Been doing it for years along with the security badges. Also have 5 flashlights attached to the neck stuff. I run a facility in a basement so when the power goes out it gets dark. Nice to see what you are doing when you have to take a whiz. Been in the hole for 33 years and have had the lights out many times.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I am certainly no knife snob , I am not trying to justify some expensive knife I own or carry honestly most of the time now I am carrying a Cold steel pendelton lite hunter that I get for 10 dollars each or a Mora that I get for about 15 dollars . I know that I am more likely to cut the cheese and sausage for my lunch with the knife than come across some sort of self defense situation or unfortunately loose it , one of my favorites was a Green River camp knife that I put together from a blank and made a sheath for , unfortunately it got lost after a few years of carrying it daily.

carrying sub 20 dollar knives that can be easily replaced doesn't hurt when you loose one.
or sometimes I give them away to a deserving person but not to often.

a flashlight is also a great thing to carry but I will leave that for another thread.

I know that the mora 4.1 inch blade is plenty long to penetrate and get carotid arteries and wind pipe , I picked up a lamb Saturday , bled ,skinned and dressed it with the mora.
my wife prefers folders and has a few nothing very expensive.


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## Sourdough

I have never liked folders, but.........About a year ago, I decided that I wanted the "Strongest" and biggest folder available, and I wanted quality. There were a few others that made it to the final short list, that had slightly longer blades, but lacked the robustness of the locking mechanism of this "CRKT" with its 5" blade. Open it is slightly over 11" total length. I am extremely happy with my final choice.

If you might be thinking, you might want a knife like this......many people on the knife forums, warned me that this knife is very big and very heavy. They were telling the truth. That handle looks like plastic, but is a treated aluminum.

I generally carry my little "Elephant Gun"......but I want something to go nano-nano with my Grizzly Bears, if the .375 H&H only pissed him off.








*Ruger Go-N-Heavy Folding Veff Serrated Edge Knife*


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## Sebastian C

I like the leathermans that the blade opens out the side with your thumb one handed. You don't look like a delinquent having it but there's no reason it won't work in special situations. 

I like bigger pocketknives too, and switchblades are legal here too, but sometimes you get the sidelong glance when you pull that out to cut a sandwich. 

You look less out of place here with a machete on your belt. No one thinks any more of that than a shovel or a hammer


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## GTX63

Getting into the habit of carrying a knife doesn't take more than starting any other habit. Just repeat putting one on your belt every morning. Removing and returning it to your purse reminds you that it is still there.


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## CKelly78z

9" TAC FORCE TACTICAL FOLDING A/O SPRING ASSISTED OPEN BLACK KNIFE ...
YouTube
9" TAC FORCE TACTICAL FOLDING A/O SPRING ASSISTED OPEN BLACK KNIFE - 924BP

I carry this knife in my pocket at all times, along with a powerful LED flashlight, and a tacticle pen/glass breaker. I use each item almost every day. It's nice having a one handed, spring assist open knife with a full 4" long blade.

I carried a much smaller Swiss army knife before this, and was always dismayed at having to search for which tool I wanted, and require 2 hands to open it. (one to hold the knife, and the other to pry the blade up with my thumb nail.


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## Ross

I always have a knife. Usually a Kershaw speed safe. I am always amazed how few people have a pocket knife.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Wisconsin de- weaponized knives in 2016 before that different cities and counties had all sorts of knife laws Milwaukee had a 3 inch blade limit before they called it a weapon.

de-weaponized means no blade length restrictions , no issue concealing and not a part of Concealed carry law any longer also made switch blades legal again.
and one set of knife code no city , county town or village can have anything more restrictive than the state law.

they did make a rule that if you are a prohibited person , aka felon , if you couldn't carry a gun you can't carry a knife when they removed concealed carry of a knife needing a CCL.

before we had CCL a buck 110 folder or similar worn on a belt was the most common , but the knife market has expanded so much in the last 15 or so years.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Ross said:


> I always have a knife. Usually a Kershaw speed safe. I am always amazed how few people have a pocket knife.


I have a co-worker our desks used to be next to each other , he would borrow my knife from time to time till I convinced him he should really get his own pocket knife.
he did and about a month later he says to me , how did I ever not carry a knife I use it so much.


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## Bearfootfarm

I carry a Cold Steel Voyager with a 4" blade:








And a Spyderco Rescue 3.5":








That's in addition to a Leatherman Super Tool:


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## whiterock

When I was a kid, most all of us carried pocket knives. Early in my teaching career, I kept a good stone in the classroom for any that wanted to use. There were times, teaching Ag that I expected students to have knives with them. By the time I retired, the lunch room was using sporks made out of plastic for safety. Kids didn't have even plastic knives available to cut their food.
It got to where most of the adults didn't carry pocket knives either. Several times, the asst. principal came to me to ask to borrow a knife. I would make out like I didn't have one. He was 20 years younger than I and would just look at me and say he knew perfectly well I had at least one knife on me and probably more than one. He was right.
I would often go through the halls and remove staples that were left after people put something on the hallway walls. Sometimes during the last 10 years I taught, a student would comment on me having an illegal knife. I just told them my knives were legal. Sometimes the town raised teachers would come to me to borrow a pocket knife. I got to keeping some cheap knives handy to loan them. It was a source of amusement how a grown man would be walking around without at least a pocket knife.
I go to a Cowboy Church. Even the preacher walks around with a knife on his belt. Pocket knife in a pretty sheath with a cross on it. One man, no longer shows up as he moved, had a different knife on his belt every time I saw him. I commented on that once, said he had so many that he could go months without wearing the same knife. It was a source of pride for him. He was a former truck driver, and told me he had had to use one more than once in highway rest stops, for defense purposes.
A friend of mine sells knives at gun shows and other venues of similar nature. He had a saddlemaker make some nice custom sheaths that sit at a 45 degree angle and are tooled on both sides. He carries on both sides, the knives are handy to both hands with that sheath. and the knife comes out with the cutting edge away from the arm. The sheaths cost more than the knives he carries in them. I have one and would like more. He has basket weave tooling on them and had the saddlemaker make him matching belt. If he carries his other weapon, it is concealed at his back. If he wants to carry strong side, he leaves that knife off, or moves it around to the back. He also carries pocket knives and I suspect has at least one around his neck. All are different in size. Because, you don't use one tool for all jobs. You use the tools that is best for the job.
Texas finally got around to allowing knives that were of some size to be carried. Used to be the standard 6" knife was too long.


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## Fishindude

I have a knife in my pocket at all times and have since I was a kid. 
It gets used multiple times daily. Don't know how people get through life without carrying a pocket knife.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

This was one of my favorites , but got lost I need to get around to building another.
the design is 1830s and just worked well for nearly every use.


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## Sourdough

Growing up on a small dairy farm, there were knives everywhere in the barns. I think every product that was purchased for medical treating the cows or a feed supplement, came with at least one (Free) knife attached. They had one blade, and it was "Hawk Billed" or "Hook Blade", which was perfect for liberating bails of hay or straw from the bondage of baling twine.


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## montysky

I just carry a good old buck knife, helps with work around the ranch. beyond that I been known to open carry or CC feel at 
6 foot 5 3/4 and 285 don't think a punk would look at me as a easy target.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

montysky said:


> I just carry a good old buck knife, helps with work around the ranch. beyond that I been known to open carry or CC feel at
> 6 foot 5 3/4 and 285 don't think a punk would look at me as a easy target.


it isn't about you being the target even.
in the video any of the people who came to the mail mans aid could have ended the situation in seconds with tools and or training.
it is about carrying the tools and having the training.

your probably strong enough to pull the dog off using the collar technique.

but the important thing to remember when we are big and strong is ,to keep the training for a woman who is 90 pounds and 70 years old . one day you may not be strong due to injury , one day hopefully you will be old.

you have me by 3 3/4 inches and even for weight , but we are both larger than NFL quarterbacks.

I grab a pickaroon in each hand and pick up 60 pound firewood rounds one in each hand them walk to the truck set them on the tail gate and go grab 2 more till the truck is full. we can toss around more weight one handed than many people can lift. but it doesn't mean a 120 pound person with some tools and technique can't get the same work done.
when cutting firewood rounds as an example cut the 60 pound round free from the log turn it an noodle it into two 30 pound half rounds that the person can lift. using tools and technique they got the same wood the same distance it took a little more time , but a lot less than finding you to move the round for them.

my 85 year old aunt who I would be surprised if she was 5 foot and 90 pounds , handles 40 pound bags of pellets to heat her house even through she basically can't lift one. she slides one off the pile we make in her garage onto the floor she then has the strength to stand the bag up cuts across the top with a scissors and flops the bag over into the bucket a typical 3 gallon household cleaning pail she then carries that to the pellet stove and dumps it in the hopper. goes out and empties the rest of the bag into the pail and brings it in . 4 trips a day to heat the house. but she is 85 independent in her own house in the woods exactly where she wants to be.


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## oceantoad

Glad that your aunt is still able to be that independent. Hope I can make it to that age and still take care of myself, but most likely will not be able to. When I had the two breaks in my wrist this past year, the doc was full of all kinds of good news. First visit showing me on the x-ray where my thumb is pretty much bone on bone. Said I could get shots or have my thumb bone taken out. Told him to do his first. Next visit was showing me how far apart a couple of the bones were, more arthritis. He told me I had very little grip. Thought I was getting weak, can't carry a bag of dog food to the house by just gripping the top. Have to set it down a couple of times. Maybe all that powder I burned through the years. Sorry, did not intend to steal the thread. Just hope that I do not end up in a chair in the home. Hope your aunt continues to thrive.


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## muleskinner2

The video shows a grown man laying on the ground screaming like a little girl, while a dog attacks him. A pen knife with a sharp two inch blade would have ended this attack in a few seconds.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Yessir. Unfortunately, many folks do not carry pocket knives any more. 

I do.


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## Chuck R.

I EDC a CRKT M16 13T (Titanium):










One handed opening, very light. We get hem for a decent price VIA the PX. I've used it and my EDC flashlight on multiple occasions. Don't know how quickly it will end a dog attack though, when they're "pumped up" they can sustain quite a bit of damage before quitting.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

a 


muleskinner2 said:


> The video shows a grown man laying on the ground screaming like a little girl, while a dog attacks him. A pen knife with a sharp two inch blade would have ended this attack in a few seconds.


even a utility knife with a 1 inch razor blade would have made a difference. the teachers at my kids school each keep basic utility knife to let the kids use in projects and such when a knife is needed around the class room.

had a cousin gash himself good with a basic utility knife across the wrist , when he slipped cutting bands on lumber, he is a framing carpenter , they had a bunch of sewing to make him almost right again he got a few tendons to his hand in a cut across his wrist.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I have been reading a book called All in Fighting.
finding instructive material on defensive and offensive knife use is not the easiest thing to find.

if others have found good materials I would be interested in what you found.
some of the info in this book especially about their firearms training is certainly dated but I suspect knives have not changed that much.

FairBairn wrote much of the training for Special operations units in WWII taking his extensive experience in martial arts , and his forming training and running the Shanghai riot squad.

you may have heard of the Fairbairn Sykes fighting knife or F-S fighting knife from WWII or possibly the Marine raider Stiletto 

her is some interesting information on the FS knife and USMC Ka-Bar

https://hroarr.com/article/the-ka-b...-fighting-children-of-different-philosophies/


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## farmrbrown

Interesting article. The most important part was at the beginning IMO.



> The system emphasized _pragmatical _rather than _gentlemanly_ and _honourable_ fighting, teaching rapid disabling of the opponent with potentially lethal force. Fairbairn declared:
> 
> _Get tough, get down in the gutter, win at all costs… I teach what is called ‘Gutter Fighting.’ There’s no fair play, no rules except one: _kill or be killed.


This pertains to your OP about the dogs as well as a recent story about a man who survived a cougar attack.....unarmed. It comes down to who wants to live or not.


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## GTX63

Yep. Fair fights are for fools.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Chuck R. said:


> I EDC a CRKT M16 13T (Titanium):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One handed opening, very light. We get hem for a decent price VIA the PX. I've used it and my EDC flashlight on multiple occasions. Don't know how quickly it will end a dog attack though, when they're "pumped up" they can sustain quite a bit of damage before quitting.



I also expect a few stabs won't be enough , part of why I question if the collar trick will work on a truly pumped up dog.

but I expect by the time you have both carotid arteries and windpipe severed and the head nearly half removed most of the fight should be out of it.
if you can't get to the neck , work on lungs and other arteries , loss of blood shuts any animal down , it takes some longer and it requires the flow.

I have been reading some on WWI and WWII knife and bayonet use and strategy. knives in trenches , the evolution of the combat fighting knife , the Bowie knife and USMC Ka-Bar.

good knives were highly prized in the trenches , many of the more dedicated thrusting knives were skinny and had weak tangs and thus broke.
a strong full tang or stout tang knife , while a wider blade would provide more resistance to a stab it wasn't really significant and a wider cut bled more and took more stitches to close. 

thus we see the USMC fighting knife adopted for it's more utilitarian purposes and serves reasonably well as both.

around the same time as the adoption of the USMC knife , we see some interesting trends and reports back from early WWII marine units , initially outfitted with the bass knuckle WWI trench knife units complained it didn't fit well in sheaths , it had a weak tang and the finger slots very much limited gripping options. these units then were issued a marine raider stiletto basically the Fairbairn Sykes OSS knife , the Marines said it was a good silent killer but lacked at nearly every other use. many units started spending their funds to buy Collins #17 and #18 short machete. (since I am having trouble uploading pictures) it is a short Machete of 10-12 inches of Bowie pattern blade. the #18 also had a large brass guard but users found the guard to get int he way more than it was necessary to keep the hand from sliding forward and more short machete with just basic wooden handles were brought into service.

with all the use and reports back our troops end up preferring what is little more than a reground tip on a sturdy 10 inch butcher knife with a bit of grip cut in to the wood handle aka a basic short machete

the British troops prefer/were issued a short machete also theirs is a Fairbairn design very similar to a WWI trench machete and is called the Smachete this is a link to a modern recreation of the Brictish OSS Smachete https://www.coldsteel.com/smatchet-machete-with-sheath.html
but in the end the Smachette is basically a bolo machete with a more pointed tip . looking at a bolo machete it is little more than a large butcher knife.

this was a bit of a history of fighting knives to see that a basic utilitarian design of a butcher , strait point , clip point, drop point or sprey point really doesn't seem to mater that much , it is likely more important today that a carry knife will reach the bottom of the peanut butter jar and slice cheese and sausage well that serves daily usefulness. for a useful tool will be carried.

while a larger knife might be preferred in a fight much like a gun the knife you have on you is worth a lot more than the one you leave at home


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## Shrek

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> https://video.foxnews.com/v/6006298889001/#sp=show-clips
> 
> if your not able to watch the video , a brief explanation a large dog possibly a pit bull is locked onto a mail carriers leg the mail carrier is on the ground on the apron of a suburban Detroit driveway houses lining both sides of the street and the dog won't let go the guy is screaming , hitting at the dog . the dog shakes it's head teeth dug in and the man screams more , a neighbor lady is shouting at the dog , the mail carrier in a moment of clarity follows his training taking what you first think is mace but then are quickly let down that it is his air horn from his mail bag and sounding it right in the dogs face , nothing no change , the video is being taken from a car that stops for this scene. the driver does' want to get involved for fear of getting bit himself but decides he needs to and passes the camera to the passenger whom stays in the car , the driver picks up a trash bin and hits the dog with it , no change , the driver then grabs the "club" steering wheel lock and proceeds to beat the dog with it , at the same time a woman from across the street is hitting the dog with the handle of broom, the first lady trying to help has gone in the house and returned with a leash.
> 
> if you thought it took a long time to read that , wow was it a long time to watch the postal worker was on the ground for more than 2 minutes with the dog on video and we have no idea how long before the video starts .
> the beating from the club steering wheel lock seemed to after a while broken the dogs hold.
> they did then get a leash on it but it was still out of control.
> 
> 
> even a screw driver would have worked better than what was used , a knife would have most definitely ended this in seconds with the proper cut.
> 
> guns are great if you have them on you but at least have a knife on you or a car/truck knife if you have to go in an out of places that restrict knife carry like a courthouse often.
> I can understand guns are often restricted many places you might go like school grounds to pick up kids or grand kids , they represent a fairly significant cost but a good usable knife can be had for 15-20 dollars in a decent sheath.
> 
> it is really sad they lady who ran in the house to grab a leash didn't come back with a kitchen knife at least.
> 
> even a utility knife would have been better but to have zero tools is just foolish.


With proper training and personal resolve, two hands are the only tools needed to subdue a locked down canine.

I watched a canine trainer get a dog off another dog by grabbing the dog by the collar and applying pressure at a point behind the jaw to get it to unlock and as the dog turned on him, while still holding the collar, he flat shoved his hand down the dog's throat and held him that way for about 30 seconds or so until the dog passed out and he put it in a fenced area until it woke up.

The only injury on the hand he shoved down the dog's throat was a couple bruises and the dog didn't seem physically injured after it woke up but it was wary of the trainer who dominated him.

He explained to us that dominating a locked on dog like that was a combination of being able to hold it by a collar, knowing where the nerve bundle behind the jaw is and having the Zen understanding that if you can get your fist inside the dog's throat faster than it can bite and lock and knock it out, you dominate. He also explained that a dog with a blocked throat cant bite.

I told him I saw him do it and believe what he explained but hoped I never had to do it like he did because if I did try to shove my hand flat into an attacking dog's mouth , I would probably hesitate and the dog would end up with finger snacks before I could choke it from inside it's throat until it passed out.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

well I admit I haven't the resolve nor training to reach in a dogs mouth and grab a nerve bundle.

but I have a reasonable amount of experience butchering and it starts with the bleeding cut so I will just cut the nerve bundle instead and insure it doesn't bite twice.

if I didn't have a tool available , I would be trying the other things.

a friend of mine had a Rottweiler he thought it was fun that he had an old bowling ball that he drilled a hole through when the dog was young and out a rope through and tied knots the dog would get it flinging back and forth swinging it around , then 2 then 3 then 4 and when the dog could get 4 16 pound bowling balls swinging around it wasn't so funny any more it started getting kind of destructive in the shop so he moved him outside with his 64 pounds of swinging bowling balls this dog was 130 pounds of just lean muscle shoulders to ears the neck didn't get any narrower , jaws , wow it was impressively strong.

I am not sure you could choke out that dog with a collar you would have to be very strong to do it.

luckily that dog was friendly towards me.


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## farmrbrown

An interesting and educational thread.

It's worth noting that part of a good defense is being aware *before* it's too late.
Being ready instead of waiting until you're pinned on the ground by an attacking animal (2 legs or 4) is half the battle won.


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## alleyyooper

In todays world it is far better to learn defensive training for dog attacks if you fear being attacked by one.

Injurying another persons dog or killing it isn't a very good Idea. Law suits againest those do gooders who are helping a person being attacked abound today and many loose to the dog owner because as jurys see it there are other options avabile besides injury or killing.

Instead of carrying a law suit to remove a dog locked on to a postals workers pant leg carry some pepper spray. Shoot a good bit of that stuff in to a dogs snout so it isn't getting any clean air and it will soon let go.










This is all I carry and that is only when I have my truck key on my person.









I seen this attack on the local news and listened to the interview of the mail man who said the dog didn't have his leg but the leg of his pants. Also listened to a couple of the people who helped get the dog loose.

I believe the youtube posted is from the driver setting in the car/suv honking the horn like that did a lot of good! Get off the horn and grab a tire iron if need be.

 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

the driver did get out and beat the dog repeatedly with the club steering wheel lock to get it off the mail man. he didn't want to get out because he feared the dog would turn on him but he did.
he actually beat it enough to get the dog to let go that once it was off the dog was stumbling and having a hard time staying on it's feet for a bit.

part of the problem is the tire iron is often screwed down with the jack and minutes away.

I have no faith in pepper spray , while I have never used it on a dog , I have seen it be completely ineffective on humans and if windy the user gets a face full also.

the owner is strictly liable for ALL damages of a dog injury in WI law a dog from a serious attack would need to be put down any way. it may be different in MI.

I know that there are people who consider their dogs children and would likely be all broken up over the loss of their livestock.

dogs may be shot if even harassing livestock as long as some other attempt was made to make them stop yelling or honking a horn counts as an attempt.

in WI if a dog has any previous history the owner is liable for 2X all damaged.

I like my dogs I do , but I would be the first one to put a bullet in their brain or cut them ear to ear if they were attacking someone without good reason.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

farmrbrown said:


> An interesting and educational thread.
> 
> It's worth noting that part of a good defense is being aware *before* it's too late.
> Being ready instead of waiting until you're pinned on the ground by an attacking animal (2 legs or 4) is half the battle won.


situational awareness is always best it gives you many more options.


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## whiterock

and you can carry a knife in some places you can't carry a firearm. Some places you can't carry either.


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## farmrbrown

whiterock said:


> and you can carry a knife in some places you can't carry a firearm. Some places you can't carry either.


Hmmmmm..........maybe it's a matter of getting one that's lighter or made of ceramic?
I've always managed to carry something when I really needed to.


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## whiterock

They get persnickity at the courthouse, and some other venues. Some places, you can carry any knife legally, others less than 5.5" blade is ok, others is a no no. Still, some places that get picky about firearms are rather nonchalant about a knife. Schools don't even let kids use plastic knives at lunch.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I carry 4 and 5 inch blade at the kids school all the time , I have for years no one ever said a word other than to occasionally ask if I can cut something.
some schools might take issue but our district never has.
the kids may not have knives but the teachers all keep a utility knife in their class rooms.

the passenger side of air ports are a no past security.
court houses probably a no , last time I was at the Dane county court house they gave me a check tag for my knife and I just had to take it out and put it in their bin and then come back and get it but that was 19 years ago. 

folders generally get even less scrutiny yet. small non-assisted open even less and like we found out when kids in school shut up and keep it in your pocket and no one will be the wiser.

I just don't go many places in a year that I can't have a knife , maybe 2-3 times a year I would need to leave the knife in the truck. but then at least it is in the truck, along with hatchet and other various tools.


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## whiterock

last time I went to courthouse, Deputy looked at me and said, "You did leave your knife in the truck?" Then had to empty pockets, take off belt, and hat and go through scanner. Then reload and redress. Sometimes my boots will set it off. Last time I took kids to Six Flags I had to get scanned and give them my knife to hold. Went to a venue in Dallas for some show and got scanned there too, but I had left knife in vehicle. Look up knife carry in Texas, crazy laws, but better than they were.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

whiterock said:


> last time I went to courthouse, Deputy looked at me and said, "You did leave your knife in the truck?" Then had to empty pockets, take off belt, and hat and go through scanner. Then reload and redress. Sometimes my boots will set it off. Last time I took kids to Six Flags I had to get scanned and give them my knife to hold. Went to a venue in Dallas for some show and got scanned there too, but I had left knife in vehicle. Look up knife carry in Texas, crazy laws, but better than they were.


looks like it got a fair amount better in 2017 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-law-will-allow-open-carry-of-knives-swords

in 2016 Wis DE-weaponized knives , here they are tools unless used otherwise and no CCL or permit is needed to carry a concealed knife , also switch blades are now legal and available at Fleet farm and many other stores.

I have been to exactly one place that had a metal detector in the last 10 years that I had to walk through. that was the Holocaust museum in Skokie IL. I collected up my sons knife he was 8 and took it an my knife out to lock them up in the van I get back in and my wife hands me her knife she didn't make it through the scanner they found her knife she had forgotten she had. so back to the van then we could finally go in and really see why people should never be disarmed.


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## alleyyooper

In Michigan if you kill a dog. You if some one was a witness of you shooting it you will pay for the dog. Even if you have a dead calf in your feed lot that a pair of dogs attacked and killed it. You shoot one of them and it dies and the other badly wounded runs home leveing a nice blood trail back to your feed lot and dead calf you will pay for the care of the wounded dog and if it doesn't live you again will pay for the dog.

Yes I know the beef farmer that happened to personally. The 2 dogs were white german shepards. the killed one was 700.00 back in 2001, the wounded one cost over 1200.00in vet bills.


Better know the law if your dealing with a dog in Michigan or it could couse you a lot.
The pepper spray on a dog that has ahold of some one goes right in its snout, not sprayed at it from 10 feet away.
Far better to get a picture of the dogs attacking the calf then the dogs owner could have paid for the calf.

Is stead of a knife just use your carry gon and be done in one fatal shot.

 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

alleyyooper said:


> In Michigan if you kill a dog. You if some one was a witness of you shooting it you will pay for the dog. Even if you have a dead calf in your feed lot that a pair of dogs attacked and killed it. You shoot one of them and it dies and the other badly wounded runs home leveing a nice blood trail back to your feed lot and dead calf you will pay for the care of the wounded dog and if it doesn't live you again will pay for the dog.
> 
> Yes I know the beef farmer that happened to personally. The 2 dogs were white german shepards. the killed one was 700.00 back in 2001, the wounded one cost over 1200.00in vet bills.
> 
> 
> Better know the law if your dealing with a dog in Michigan or it could couse you a lot.
> The pepper spray on a dog that has ahold of some one goes right in its snout, not sprayed at it from 10 feet away.
> Far better to get a picture of the dogs attacking the calf then the dogs owner could have paid for the calf.
> 
> Is stead of a knife just use your carry gon and be done in one fatal shot.
> 
> Al


that is a sad state of affairs.

your dog wasn't on a leash or under your control your liable for everything they do.

shooting with a rifle from a hundred yards away a dog carrying your dead chicken is also not he same as cutting one one a knife because it was that close and attacking.

peppers spray Ironically here is a weapon same as a gun. but not a knife it is just a tool.

could just use the carry gun but you have some over penetration issues to be concerned with and not everyone carries a gun , they should but 
if your not carrying a gun at least carry a knife.

although both are better 

what happened to a gun , a blade and days rations? isn't that at the foundation of our nation?


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## Bearfootfarm

alleyyooper said:


> *Better know the law* if your dealing with a dog in Michigan or it could couse you a lot.


I agree that one *should* know the laws:

https://www.animallaw.info/statute/mi-dogs-consolidated-dog-laws#s279

" M.C.L. 287.261 - 395; 317.63; 324.73101 - 42106

*287.279 Dogs pursuing livestock or poultry, attacking persons, or entering livestock or poultry producer's field or enclosure; killing*

Sec. 19. *Any person* including a law enforcement officer *may kill any dog* which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, *and* *there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing.* 

Any dog that enters any field or enclosure which is owned by or leased by a person producing livestock or poultry, outside of a city, unaccompanied by his owner or his owner’s agent, shall constitute a trespass, and the owner shall be liable in damages. 

Except as provided in this section, it shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to kill or injure or attempt to kill or injure any dog which bears a license tag for the current year."


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## farmrbrown

whiterock said:


> They get persnickity at the courthouse, and some other venues. Some places, you can carry any knife legally, others less than 5.5" blade is ok, others is a no no. Still, some places that get picky about firearms are rather nonchalant about a knife. Schools don't even let kids use plastic knives at lunch.


Yeah, my comment was tongue-in-cheek.
One can always find a way to carry so the question of "can you" isn't the same as "can you *legally*".




GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> then we could finally go in and really see why people should never be disarmed.


Exactly.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

as a side note from the Holistic museum they had a section dedicated to other genocide the part of the Rwandan genocide you may not have heard was when the UN came in the refugees were moved to the Congo , and when the UN stopped sending money the DRC just cleaned up the camps finishing the job the Hutu started.


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## fordy

...........If a person has the strength the best way to grab a mean dog is by the back legs........whether they are fighting another dog or biting a person ! If you have access to a round stick like a hoe handle it can be inserted into the animals mouth and then twisted to break the mouth grip of the animal if possible . Most folks just don't have access to these items when an emergency presents itself . , fordy


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