# How to determine if a wall sagging is a problem



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hello...
I just recently bought a house via auction and since then we are fixing and improving where we can.
Since it was auction, there was not inspection etc.
So it is build 1986 and has a stripe foundation which got filled with a concrete "lake" as main floor
So far so good...sitting there for pretty much ever, i still dont find any sagging or cracks on the foundation outside, but in the first floor (upstairs), a wall is sagging...underneath it in the living room, you dont see anything that could lead to the idea that something is coming down...
Its a quarter inch so far...and i cant think of a reason for it...
No water lines in that area by far...so rotted wood is not an obvious option...
Def no termites...
Any other ideas why a wall in a upper floor could decide to move downwards?
I am afraid to call an official, since i dont know if they could close the house due to stability issues (well if that would be the case i should not life there either but who wants to hear that from someone,,,right?)
Can add picture if that helps later...


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What is a stripe foundation?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The wall is over an open area of the living room? 

Inadequate beams supporting the ceiling of the first floor?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

1986 is not forever.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

1986 is not forever per se, but for setting a foundation the sagging part should be done by now
Strip foundation is when you outline the house first with a concrete layer and put cinder blocks on top, and the dirt is still in the middle where later the concrete is poured to be the floor
Under that specific wall piece is a small living room separating wall...
It is the piece of wall in the back that is under the sagging part updstairs
https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS23n207uhtywj1000000000.jpg
This is the wall that is sagging...lower right corner
https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISeg5v82wkwcqm1000000000.jpg


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Have you checked the lower floor for level?


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Haven't done that, but as is said...a house that sits for that long should be done with moving..dont you think?
But will test


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nope. What kind of soil? 

We have heavy clay in our part of Texas. Heaves when wet. 

We had to have our concrete slab stabilized after twelve years. The doors in the house wouldn’t close, and the slab was cracking. $20,000 in 1991.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Oh...nice...you know how to spread optimism haha
It is just odd that downstairs is no sign of any movement...


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Meinecke said:


> Its a quarter inch so far...and i cant think of a reason for it...


The floor could have been poured with a 1/4" dip in the concrete....seen far worse.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

But would the downstairs not show same behavior than?!


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

It's probably not anything too serious. Have a decent home builder contractor come in and take a look at it for you and offer to pay for his time. If you don't know anybody, surely you have a friend or neighbor that has had a house built or some remodeling done that could refer you to someone they trust.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice is right. A qtr inch of repeated heaving is nothing when it comes to slab construction. Andy is also right- they're cement finishers, not rocket surgeons. The knuckleheads I hired to do mine last year have been doing it for 40 yrs and still screwed up by 2 inches (I was wondering why we needed 7 more yds than I originally ordered. --didn't figure it out until I went to frame the walls.) And a room a qtr inch out of square is not unusual even for a good carpenter.

How did you determine there's a sag in the wall? Where/how are you measuring?


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hmmm...sounds like a good idea...
Will get my ears on the bush radio


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

@doc- We painted the room short after we moved in and the corner was flush and the Sheetrock paper was in good order etc...
Now, a few month later, the paper/the corner has downward movement warps in the Sheetrock paper incl rips in it due to overcoming its flexibility and next to the window, a crack from the window straight to the corner appeared in the wall Sheetrock
sorry for the bad description but English is my second language
So there is real visual proof of downwards movement


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good explanation. 

I think it is narrowed down to two possible answers now. 

Bad construction that could have been concealed by the recent (?) paint and wallpaper. 

Or

Soil heave.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Guessing bad construction...would not be the first thing i found that is def not done by code...
Luckily the house was a bargain...


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Guessing bad construction...would not be the first thing i found that is def not done by code...
> Luckily the house was a bargain...


I was going to say if you saw no drywall cracks, just bad framing.
But since you did, it would point to foundation heaving/settling.
As I reread your comment, you said the sheetrock was fine when you painted it? Did you get higher than normal snow load this winter?
Does the floor creak when you walk on them...or bounce on them?
See any cracks in cinder blocks? If footings were sinking or heaving, you should see cracks in pony wall (cinder wall).
I would rule out the easy to see items, then I would probably make an inspection portal to see those floor joists (via main floor ceiling drywall - easy to fix). 1986 tells me they are probably dimensional lumber floor joists...see what size they are, and if you got a bad one installed. I run in to bad joists all the time, even on my own house...and I picked my lumber order. Actually, the lumber yards give me grief for being so picky.
A crack in wall by window tells me they probably didn't frame it very well...is it from bottom corner of window to floor or top of window to ceiling? Have you any windstorms/heavy snows as of late?


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hello...
No cracks/lifts/sagging in "pony wall" around the house at that area...an addition on the other side of house is slightly moving away...but thats a different story...
The floor from the window into the room feels like a few inches downhill...but no more bouncy then everywhere
Crack goes from upper right corner of window to left wall straight through Sheetrock...
Will post pics later...
With the inspection portal...what do you mean with that and where would you do it?


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Hello...
> No cracks/lifts/sagging in "pony wall" around the house at that area...an addition on the other side of house is slightly moving away...but thats a different story...
> The floor from the window into the room feels like a few inches downhill...but no more bouncy then everywhere
> Crack goes from upper right corner of window to left wall straight through Sheetrock...
> ...


You get a level on that floor and walls to see where exactly you are at...
Top corner crack suggests roof load caused it or bad framing, like no header over window, sheathing not done well, no double top plate, etc.... 
Also, can you access attic...check the rafters...
I mentioned where to make an inspection portal...the idea is to make it where it causes the least problems to repair (drywall is usually the easiest to repair). For instance, ripping up second floor is a dogs breakfast (carpet, sublfoor, which should be glued and screwed). If you go through first floor ceiling, and your faced with a sagging joist, you can sister another (jacking up works first). I've seen that...some homeowner decided a first floor post was in the way, and so they removed it. I took a laser to show them it wasn't a bright idea. The post was actually holding a center beam, which in turn was holding up second floor joists. Funny enough, they ignored my advice to put it back...and instead have removed heavy furniture from second floor bdrm....I'm shaking my head. To make matters even funnier, I don't think they sleep in 2nd floor main bedroom because of it, but have a bed in a vestibule where floor is more solid.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

*Deductive reasoning:--a sagging joist is going to show its sag towards the middle of the floor, not near the end where it's supported. A sag in the middle could cause a small lift on the end-- how many joists would have to sag to move a whole wall? 

You're virtually seeing this happen before your very eyes-- no sag when you painted; sagging just after.
What a coincidence! --house built poorly 33 y/a was ok just until you bought it!


Much more likely our unusual winter weather is the cause. We had a 70 deg swing in temps here over a 36 hr period last week-- probably almost the same for you. Wait until spring-- it'll correct itself.*


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Tried to upload pics (jpg max 300kb) but it says error occurred 
We had some pretty intense temp changes here too...40 on day minus 5 the other...
Just wonder if one of the prior owners was such an idiot and took a load bearing wall out and just left this little piece as support in downstairs living room...
But i guess you are right...would be pretty strange when house finally decided to collapse just after me buying it...


----------



## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the last owner removed part of a bearing wall to open up the space when they were painting and redecorating. 

I bet if you cut through the ceiling drywall in the space between those short dividing walls, you will find ceiling joists bolted together rather than running continuously, or if they run continuously they are undersized for the span.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Aah. That makes sense.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I really doubt that it has anything to do with the slab. More like something to do with the wood framing.
Get a pro to look at it.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Meinecke said:


> Hello...
> I just recently bought a house via auction and since then we are fixing and improving where we can.
> Since it was auction, there was not inspection etc.
> So it is build 1986 and has a stripe foundation which got filled with a concrete "lake" as main floor
> ...


Failing fasteners on the floor joists is where I'd look first.


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

farmrbrown said:


> Failing fasteners on the floor joists is where I'd look first.


Oh yeah, I've seen that too...joists are not sitting on load bearing wall, but are just tacked to it, without hangers.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Would i see this on the downstairs ceiling or just when i crash through it?


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Would i see this on the downstairs ceiling or just when i crash through it?


Having a sense of humor is a requirement when dealing with crap. A lot of ***s are usually muttered. 
I would expect to see cracks in downstairs ceiling where the sag is evident. You mentioned the upstairs floor is firm, so you might get lucky and not accidentally, create an elevator shaft. You could always pile up cushions on main floor below sag, just in case you have an express elevator ride....lol
I'd get a laser or level on the sag to see what we are talking about...


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Meinecke said:


> Tried to upload pics (jpg max 300kb) but it says error occurred
> We had some pretty intense temp changes here too...40 on day minus 5 the other...
> Just wonder if one of the prior owners was such an idiot and took a load bearing wall out and just left this little piece as support in downstairs living room...
> But i guess you are right...would be pretty strange when house finally decided to collapse just after me buying it...


Strange, maybe.
Then again sometimes things just happen. It's hard to decide if it's coincidence or not, but in the end it rarely matters unless it's a major structural problem and it was intentionally hidden. If it's just minor stuff, you're the one who has to deal with it now and decide if it's worth fixing or not.

I never really saw anything in the 2 pictures you posted early in the thread, but if you could get a close up shot of the cracks, it might help.
I believe you when you say that _something_ has moved, but I can't tell exactly what "it" is or the cause.
The only way to know might be to cut open some sheetrock and have a good look inside. Inspection cameras are nice, but they don't always show everything you need to see. 
Sure it's a pain after everything is painted and finished, but it's no big deal to patch it up again if you're willing to tape, mud, sand and paint a little bit.

I have seen ceilings and walls that were not framed well and instead of shimming or straitening the uneven studs, the drywall was slapped on, screwed on under stress, mudded and eventually started "moving" which revealed defects.
That still doesn't explain then floor dipping, unless I misunderstood that part. THAT'S the thing I would be most concerned about although it *should* be showing up in the ceiling directly below it .......... unless that's an isolated problem caused by a gap between the finished floor and the sub flooring. A few nails, screws or construction adhesive would take care of that minor problem.

One other possibility to investigate is moisture intruding around the window near those cracks. Sometimes water will get in and cause problems too but those should be more obvious. A moisture meter would help if it hasn't come out of the walls yet.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Finally the close ups did upload...


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Definitely some settling cracks...question is why. And your pics don't mention what rooms or floor. In your earlier pics, you have a brown (downstairs living room?), and blue room (upstairs bdrm?)...now, you have a green room, and a non-painted??? room. 
Could very well be poor drywall/tape/mud install. 
The one thing that caught my eye was living/dining room. Looks like very large spans. And looking at ceiling drywall, it appears they were lengthwise across the short span, which would usually mean the ceiling joists were laid along the long span. Then you have two stub walls coming out...perhaps, initially, those were not stub walls, but the room was divided into two (stub walls were joined and later someone decided to blow open the wall to make one large room). If they did that, one has to wonder if they properly addressed the ceiling joists...that is, did they install a suitable beam to carry 2nd floor joists. 
At any rate, I would inspect this...get a video scope to see what is what or go down to building dept and ask for a copy of plans or cut out an inspection portal. You have to take the next step. 
Sometimes, one can see previous renos...there can be tell-tale signs, like a carpet patch, uneven floor where wall was removed, drywall irregularities etc.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hello again...thx for all the info...
I totally missed to name those pics
The pics with green are all the old blue room and location is the right back corner next to the window...
The unpainted one is the backside of the green wall inside the closet in other room to show that it is not just one sheetrock panel...
Thx so much for the info...was at Municipal already, but no plans on file...of course....
No architect name either...
Will get someone to take a look...just hoping they dont rip apart my hole area


----------



## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Agree with Melli 100%. Those two stub walls were almost certainly a bearing wall that have been renovated without beefing up structure. I had that happen to me, and I can tell you that the second floor wall can drop and create the drywall cracks at the wall without the drywall on the ceiling necessarily cracking right away. It has more "bend", depending on where the seams are.

If you open up the downstairs ceiling and look at the structure, I would bet you could solve it by putting in a header between the two stub walls using two 2x10 pieces of Doug Fir. It won't be expensive, just messy, and a pain in the butt to have to re-drywall.


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Hello again...thx for all the info...
> I totally missed to name those pics
> The pics with green are all the old blue room and location is the right back corner next to the window...
> The unpainted one is the backside of the green wall inside the closet in other room to show that it is not just one sheetrock panel...
> ...


Ok, that makes sense now...that green room and unpainted room share a wall, and that wall is directly over the living room?


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

While removal of a load bearing wall certainly is a distinct & nasty possibility, isn't it odd that all the cracks are exactly along drywall joints and no evidence of any buckling of the sheets? If an 8 ft height filled by an 8 ft sheet of dry wall suddenly becomes a 7'11 3/4" space, where did the extra 1/4 " of dry wall go?...I'm betting it's just a lousy tape & mud job-- must've been done by _legal_ immigrants.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

doc- said:


> While removal of a load bearing wall certainly is a distinct & nasty possibility, isn't it odd that all the cracks are exactly along drywall joints and no evidence of any buckling of the sheets? If an 8 ft height filled by an 8 ft sheet of dry wall suddenly becomes a 7'11 3/4" space, where did the extra 1/4 " of dry wall go?...I'm betting it's just a lousy tape & mud job-- must've been done by _legal_ immigrants.



That's what I was thinking and why I wanted to see some closeups. Those cracks in the corners looked like the tape was accidentally cut with the drywall knife (using too much force) and in some places seemed like there was no tape at all, since you could see into the wall. In one room it looked like the sheet didn't reach the corner by about 1/2" and the seam was too weak to hold.

And while it _appears_ that the wall "sank" along that seam, a closer look doesn't show any other structural signs of sagging. IOW, I wonder if the sheet of drywall slipped off the studs due to workmanship rather than the framing shifting?
If you drive the screws too deep, use too few, or miss the studs too many times, there isn't anything left to keep it in place. 
I know it's a pain trying to make everything a perfect fit, so the tendency is to cut pieces a little "short" so they go up easier and let the tape and mud fill the gaps. But if you take that to the extreme, the tape and mud will only hold everything together to their limits. I sometimes use more screws on a patch than I normally use on an entire seam just so it won't buckle or bulge and lay flat like it's supposed to look.

If it were me, Meinecke, I'd go ahead and take down a section in the worst area and see exactly what's going on behind that drywall. At this point either way, it's probably gonna have to come down anyway to fix it and you'll know whether the cause is major or minor.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Whatever you have going on there looks pretty minor. Just monitor it for a while. If the damage doesn't get any worse over time, simply fill the cracks with a little drywall compound or latex painters caulk and repaint.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Hello...
one quick detail that just popped into my head last night...
In the corner of the small "holding" wall in living room, we put a pellet stove...that is cranking out good heat...
Could that cause, even after that amount of house age, drying in a single spot or shrinking due to the added heat in any way?
There was never a heat source at that spot before...
Thx for all advice so far...will probable kill the wall in the closet on the backside of the bedroom wall, since dirt/mess/awfull sheetrock repair does not matter there and it not painted anyway


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Hello...
> one quick detail that just popped into my head last night...
> In the corner of the small "holding" wall in living room, we put a pellet stove...that is cranking out good heat...
> Could that cause, even after that amount of house age, drying in a single spot or shrinking due to the added heat in any way?
> ...


Why are you doing that? The wall 'probably' isn't the problem. 
Yep, heat from a stove could cause cracks in drywall, but in the locations you've shown, something tells me, something else is afoot.


----------

