# What Happened to Marksmanship?



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Have been seeing this for the last few years, and saw it again this week. Going to Texas soon with a few buddy's on a pig hunt, so we're sighting in some rifles at my place last week. I shoot all of the time and my stuff is pretty well good to go at all times, so primarily working with the other guys to try and get them hitting what they're aiming at.

Do my best to remain patient and coach them along, but man .... these guys are terrible shots, and they just don't understand how guns ammo & optics work, don't know how to rest and shoot steady off a bench, etc. These are grown men in their 50's that grew up around guns hunting deer & small game with .22's & shotguns. Both bought new rifles (.270 & .308), cheapo black plastic bolt action. Sales people also convinced them that they needed fancy scopes with the BDC type reticles so they can shoot long range.

These guys are struggling to get 4" 100 yard groups off a bench and sandbags. I get them on paper, but can't really do much else for them via scope adjustment until they can put two or three bullets on target close to one another. They show up with three different ammo types, which is a good idea to find out what a rifle likes, but when you can't hold a group, you can't tell which ammo is better. I had some steel plates set at 300 & 400 yards and demonstrated how easy they are to hit at that range if they would just spend some time with their rifles.

This stuff is pretty frustrating to me, and I see it every season with my deer and elk hunting buddies too. They'll buy expensive guns and optics, pay for expensive trips, licenses and travel, but won't spend enough time and effort at the target range to become somewhat proficient with their rifles.


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## Martlet (Apr 20, 2015)

Join Appleseed. They need instructors.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

take them all to an Appleseed , sometimes you need to take the recoil out of it , Appleseed also does a great job of watching targets and seeing what the issues are them having everyone on the line run a drill that deals with the issues they are seeing.
running the drill reinforces for everyone without calling anyone out for their issue.

I frequently think , I just need you to wipe your mind about everything you think you know about shooting and give me an hour one on one to put it all back in there right.

live/dummy training is great for seeing if it is recoil sensitivity or them anticipating recoil we use this when starting kids on shotgun , it is the only time we pass a loaded gun , and we are very careful about it they take their stance , we take the gun from them keeping it down range turn our backs to them load a live or dummy shell mixing it up then place the gun where we want it in their shoulder and let them get the grip and acknowledge they have the grip before we let go then release a clay the thrower is set to just loft it up easy.

almost everyone has a flinch by the 2nd or 3rd live round and going to a dummy shows them that , once they realize they have it then you can work on fixing it

sighting in a light weight 12ga pump slug gun has got to be about the hardest times not to flinch, repeat in your head just let it hit me my filling aren't really going to shake loose

that's were keeping round count down can help , learn to do the math , get 2-3 rounds in a nice group then do the math to move the group to the point of aim a minute is an inch at 100 yards 1/2 inch at 50 yards and a 1/4 inch at 25 yards

if you need to move 4 inches and you were at 100 yards you would move 16 click on a 1/4 moa scope 32 clicks at 50 yards and 64 clicks at 25yards

but if you can't hold a group then you need to figure that first before sight adjustments can be made.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

The other issue is that so many people think hitting a paper plate 4 times at 50 yards will do them just fine at 2,3,400 yards. Last rifle I bought that didn't hold 1moa or less got traded in. I enjoy long range shooting and hunting at longer ranges. Most people don't concern themselves with cold bore point of impact either. My 300rum will toss the first bullet 3/4 inch low at 100 and the final 3 will all touch. I will take all my bolt guns on given days log the weather conditions and shoot once just to see my cold bore point of impact. Doesn't matter to most but it does to me!


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

One of the biggest problems is the amount of time spent shooting. The more I shoot the better I get. If things get busy and time stretches between trips to the range my ability goes down hill. Not enough to effect a hunt, but taking a month off and then expecting one ragged hole ain't gonna happen.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Alot of time these guys are flinching from recoil expectation. Best way to break it is put away the cannons. I use to think bigger is better. We shot long range often. Hunting deer at 600 plus yards on camera for fun. So we always bought the big guns. 300 rem ultra mag, 300 Weatherby mag and even a 50 bmg just for laughs. Now, it's all about best bc and shootability. Give me a 6.5 Creedmoor or 6mm any day. I can shoot it all day and cheaply. Can take down any game in North America. The lighter recoil will make them better shooters.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

These guys aren't hardly shooting cannons, .308 & .270 Win, not heavy kickers in my book.
Another thing that probably contributes to the problems is the quality of their rifles. Both guys bought new rifles; a black plastic Ruger American, and Remington's bottom of the line black plastic bolt action. Triggers are stiff as heck, and guns are very lightweight. Just squeezing the trigger pulls you off target. I think the manufacturers have really done themselves a dis-service putting their names on this cheap stuff. As recent as 10-15 years ago, the quality of their stuff was much better.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Fishindude said:


> These guys aren't hardly shooting cannons, .308 & .270 Win, not heavy kickers in my book.
> Another thing that probably contributes to the problems is the quality of their rifles. Both guys bought new rifles; a black plastic Ruger American, and Remington's bottom of the line black plastic bolt action. Triggers are stiff as heck, and guns are very lightweight. Just squeezing the trigger pulls you off target. I think the manufacturers have really done themselves a dis-service putting their names on this cheap stuff. As recent as 10-15 years ago, the quality of their stuff was much better.


Cheap Remington is a throw away gun. But the ruger American for 349.00 is 1000 yard gun out of the box topped with a decent scope. I've seen it. Buddy has it in 6.5 creedmore preditor. Amazing gun for the money.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

You can have that Ruger American, looks like a plastic BB gun to me. In my opinion, the older 77's were a much better rifle, even the plastic ones.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Fishindude said:


> You can have that Ruger American, looks like a plastic BB gun to me. In my opinion, the older 77's were a much better rifle, even the plastic ones.


The 77 was a great gun. I haven't had a ruger that wasn't truthfully. You take that ruger American and put on a 100.00 boyds laminated thumb hole stock and you have a great gun with a very smooth trigger. As smooth as my 700s ever were.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

1 word: Savage. Savage decided to build a rifle that was accurate and dependable in hunting and plinking and I use dependable loosely to gain a bigger foothold in the market. It worked quite well for them and because of this Remington, ruger, and now Winchester all decided to follow suit and put out junk to compete with savage. I did a 338 win mag off a howa barreled action and put it into a decent laminate stock and that rifle is accurate as ever and the quality of it is probably better than all 3 of the listed previously lower end rifle with good stock. I'm still working up a load for it to see how it holds at 1000 but it's shooting .62" at 100 consistently.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> 1 word: Savage. Savage decided to build a rifle that was accurate and dependable in hunting and plinking and I use dependable loosely to gain a bigger foothold in the market. It worked quite well for them and because of this Remington, ruger, and now Winchester all decided to follow suit and put out junk to compete with savage. I did a 338 win mag off a howa barreled action and put it into a decent laminate stock and that rifle is accurate as ever and the quality of it is probably better than all 3 of the listed previously lower end rifle with good stock. I'm still working up a load for it to see how it holds at 1000 but it's shooting .62" at 100 consistently.


My main carry gun around the farm is my savage axis 22-250 with boyds stock. 500 yard yote crushing machine. I'm s huge fan of savage.


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## hdsjr (Mar 25, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> You can have that Ruger American, looks like a plastic BB gun to me. In my opinion, the older 77's were a much better rifle, even the plastic ones.


Thanks, I'll take it. I have both - the 77 and the RA in 308. Off a bag with reloads (168gr Matchking, weighed 4895 powder charges and Hornady Match brass, my RA will shoot .6" groups at 100 yards all day long. That's almost 1/2 MOA. The 77 won't do that, neither will a stock Winchester 70 or Remington 700 unless they've made some drastic changes in them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Some people just like to hunt but don't really enjoy shooting that much.
They seldom shoot past 200 yards so "minute of pie plate" works for them.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

hdsjr said:


> Thanks, I'll take it. I have both - the 77 and the RA in 308. Off a bag with reloads (168gr Matchking, weighed 4895 powder charges and Hornady Match brass, my RA will shoot .6" groups at 100 yards all day long. That's almost 1/2 MOA. The 77 won't do that, neither will a stock Winchester 70 or Remington 700 unless they've made some drastic changes in them.


My 77 in 22-250 does it all day everyday, my 300rum sendero does, my 300 win mag which is a 700 shot .75 all day and now does .5 with the 5R barrel. So yes they will and do without drastic changes to them. I will however agree that out of all the "cheap" bottom end rifles ruger has done the best by a long shot.


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## hdsjr (Mar 25, 2016)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> My 77 in 22-250 does it all day everyday, my 300rum sendero does, my 300 win mag which is a 700 shot .75 all day and now does .5 with the 5R barrel. So yes they will and do without drastic changes to them. I will however agree that out of all the "cheap" bottom end rifles ruger has done the best by a long shot.


Congrats on your 77 and 700 capability. Mine both needed trigger work and glass bedding to do it!


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Many people don't realize what those light plastic stocks do to recoil. Fill the butts with lead shot and see if they shoot any better.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Never heard of Appleseed except the original Johnny. Please enlighten me. A quick search gave nada.


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> Many people don't realize what those light plastic stocks do to recoil. Fill the butts with lead shot and see if they shoot any better.


After posting this, I decided to add some weight to my wife's plastic stock 20 guage. I used 1.5 lbs of steel BBs. Made a huge difference!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

krackin said:


> Never heard of Appleseed except the original Johnny. Please enlighten me. A quick search gave nada.


https://appleseedinfo.org/

very good program , it is run by the RWVA revolutionary war veterans association this is their only project to make better citizens through education of history and marksmanship. they teach them together on the range.

if you shoot Rifleman , and return and shoot rifleman again and they see the characteristics in you that they think are good in an instructor and you ask you can come on as an Orange hat , this is an apprentice level instructor , then there is a path to follow to become a red hat senior instructor and if you continue a shoot boss / green hat.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

There is the cost of practice involved in becoming a good shooter. If one is not a reloader, he is paying better than a $1.00 per round for ammo in addition to range time. Some can't see the value in that kind of investment.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Sooo, The problem is they can't shoot?
Or are they looking for new equipment?

Mostly even the cheap rifles shoot better than most people....and they won't admit it.

If you have a sighted in rifle if a lighter caliber .25 cal or so...that you know will shoot......then have them bench it and shoot 3 shots.

Have them stop after 3 rounds....and relax.
Several reasons...barrel heats up, MAY make a difference.
But mostly to have the recover and compose themselves.
See how they do?

When they get there with yours....have them sight in their rifles....or you do it so you know where it shoots.

Or just have them have one of these made...then there will be no excuses....LOL
https://www.gunwerks.com/store/rifles/lr-1000#34-43-67-25-62-52-64-55-156-126-c2-t0-a0-r0


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I have two Marlin X7 rifles. They are inexpensive, but they are not cheap. With my reloads, on a bench, my .243 will give me half inch to three quarter inch groups at two hundred yards. Ain't nothing cheap about it.


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## wills (Jun 17, 2008)

Proper position

Prone

Sitting

Kneeling

Offhand

Proper use of a sling (a real sling, not a carrying strap)

http://thecmp.org/training-tech/armorers-corner/1907-sling-installation/

Sight Picture

Breath Control



Find an old bolt action .22 target rifle and practice.


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## wills (Jun 17, 2008)

That may look old and simple, but the basics have not changed.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

I use a sling/strap to carry muzzle down, left shoulder, rifle behind me. I shoot right mostly. When I go into firing position rapidly, left hand takes the forearm, comes up, goes forward, turns left while my right hand takes fore-stock and trigger. Left elbow extends out and down slightly to tension sling while butt implants into firing position. My sling is still 'hooked' around my left shoulder. It gives three very solid anchor points, stock, shoulder, forearm. Target is still under both eyes, right eye commands fire. It takes a second or two, not much more. Not all shots are taken.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I'll have to admit that I'm not the marksman I once was. Other things in life have just cut into the time I can take out for shooting.

WWW


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