# food shortage in citys?



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

i am posting this here not to knock those in need but to let people know what is happing. As I feel this is only going to get worse. I f you are in a position to prepare for what's coming do it.
And let others know your ideas on what you think the best way to prepare or what might occur if it does get any worse.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/anatomy-hunger-crisis


----------



## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Very sobering.


----------



## spacecase0 (Jul 12, 2012)

I am glad that I know how to grow my own food, could likely do it even in a city


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

With the reduction in food stamps, I can see where more and more people will be relying on food banks. One part of me feels bad for these people, while another part of me thinks this should be a wake up, slap in the face, reality check for those who rely on the system.

We have all seen the examples, people in nice cars, high end clothes, $400+ smart phones, etc, etc, getting free food money and using short term assistance programs as permanent livelyhood.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone NEEDS help, and help is available, fine. And I know many people do not have the resources that I have, but people do need to prioritize things, but will not do it as long as they always have freebies available.

I have been off work for five months, still can't find work either, and my family "qualifies" for food stamps assistance, but I haven't signed up and won't.
In deer season, I gave up the comforts of sitting in a warm house and instead, put on my 12 or 13 year old insulated coveralls and went hunting. Ended up putting 3 in the freezer. We also put 40+ chickens in the freezer, that on top of a lot of frozen and canned garden produce.

Sure, as homesteaders, putting up food is nothing new, but we also prioritize. I had to give up my 2010 dodge ram 4x4 quad cab, and now drive a 92 f150 with 205,000 miles. But it runs and drives. When my wifes contract was up on her smart phone, she did away with her data plan and got a talk/text only phone. I will do the same when my contract is up.
We don't have satalite tv, etc.

I guess my point is, if more people use their available funding for needs rather than wants and conviniences, they wouldn't need to stand in line at soup kitchens and food pantries.


----------



## MoonShadows (Jan 11, 2014)

I think Dixie says it very eloquently.

Just to add, if the government would do something to properly police food stamp, welfare, and Medicaid to clean out of the system those who really don't deserve it, there would be plenty of money to feed the truly poor and hungry in this nation.

I was on line at the grocery store the other day behind a woman who paid with her food stamp card which she pulled out of a Coach Handbag that goes for about $400. I only had a few things, so I was out of the store right behind her, only to see her get into what looked like a new Lexus parked in a handicap space with no evidence of a handicap plate or mirror hanger. I got into my 2001 Buick with 200,000+ miles and just had a good laugh at how screwed up things really are.


----------



## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Maybe it's time for everyone to learn about making their own Victory Gardens like they did in WWII. There was a food shortage then also that lasted for 4 years as most of the food was being sent to the troops.

Peopledon't need alot of land. They can grow food in creative ways ....like in pots.
Ohio Rusty ><>

Si vis pacem, para bellum!: "If you wish for peace, prepare for war!"


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> With the reduction in food stamps, I can see where more and more people will be relying on food banks. One part of me feels bad for these people, while another part of me thinks this should be a wake up, slap in the face, reality check for those who rely on the system.
> 
> We have all seen the examples, people in nice cars, high end clothes, $400+ smart phones, etc, etc, getting free food money and using short term assistance programs as permanent livelyhood.
> 
> ...


Cutbacks? A family of 4 or 5 gets $700 a month foodstamps. Cut that in half and its still a lot!
We are 2 yrs w/ unemployment and did exactly as you have....but I do go to the food bank and help as much as possible.... DD12 is their youngest volunteer and I'm like the third or 4th youngest person helping at 43 yo! Lots of young people take but don't come in to help!
We dont have internet at home and just basic dishtv($20/month) and no cells. We sold our green gas guzzler f250 and used the car for as much as possible...its 15 years old.

Most turn their nose up at deer meat too....:hair

Lots of these welfare/disability folks are on med. maryjane too and some are convicted felons....Here you go...a paycheck, money for food, a cell phone, free heat, cheap housing, allowed a 25k valued car, and healthcare....and smoke some pot to boot....quite a racket if you ask me!


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Food banks have employees like any other business. Employees who need a source of income like everyone else. Donations and grants would dry up without publicity. So you can bet there will always be a" food crisis" story- it's an easy story for the reporter-they just interview the food bank director- and good business for the food bank too.
It's not that this is totally baseless but just should be put in perspective. How many skeletons of starved people just lying around have been seen?


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Food banks have employees like any other business. Employees who need a source of income like everyone else. Donations and grants would dry up without publicity. So you can bet there will always be a" food crisis" story- it's an easy story for the reporter-they just interview the food bank director- and good business for the food bank too.
> It's not that this is totally baseless but just should be put in perspective. How many skeletons of starvied people just lying around have been seen?


Our local pantry has only volunteer staff.

The food "warehouse" "Good Shepherd" has both paid and volunteer staff.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I'll bet that New York City has a paid director. And quite a budget.


----------



## paulty_logic (Jan 15, 2014)

Ohio Rusty said:


> Maybe it's time for everyone to learn about making their own Victory Gardens like they did in WWII. There was a food shortage then also that lasted for 4 years as most of the food was being sent to the troops.
> 
> Peopledon't need alot of land. They can grow food in creative ways ....like in pots.
> Ohio Rusty ><>
> ...


I kind of doubt that a resurgence in Victory Garden-type growing would happen until things have gotten beyond desperate. It seems that most people after WWII abandoned the idea of growing their own food. People got wrapped up in the post-war boom. They all got their shiny new cars, suburban homes and could go to the supermarket for whatever they wanted. This ideology trickled down to their kids..

The urban farming movement (which always seemed just like Victory Gardening to me) has had a bunch blowback from city councils and zoning board members. They don't want anyone disrupting their picturesque suburban image of having green lawns and white picket fences with growing edibles let alone having chickens or a goat.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Ohio Rusty said:


> Peopledon't need alot of land. They can grow food in creative ways ....like in pots.
> Ohio Rusty ><>
> 
> Si vis pacem, para bellum!: "If you wish for peace, prepare for war!"


They could maybe SUPPLEMENT their diet with pots, but not supply it entirely.

Not unless they put out 3,000 square feet of pots. 

Gardening skills don't scale exceptionally well. When I was working on a postage stamp size garden in my backyard I thought, "Man, think about how much food I could produce if I had 5 acres!" Then when I had a 2 acre garden I ran into all sorts of new problems that I'd never had before. 

My family requires about 14,000 calories per day to thrive. Under the best methods, it simply takes a lot of space to produce that much food, (at 35 calories per tomato, for example.) Last summer our 3,000 square foot garden produced enough food to reduce our outside dependency to its lowest level ever, but there was still pork and chicken eggs we relied on, both produced elsewhere than from the garden.

When hard times hit, people in cities starve. That's the way it has always been. Now suburbs can be retooled to produce food, if there's a willingness and a need, since most of those used to be farmland originally, but where are the skills going to come from? We're not exactly a nation of gardeners anymore.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I volunteer for the HDC. On free food days I see no one in Cadillacs. Many of them get a ride because they have no car, or no longer drive. (has no one ever heard of borrowing a car- this may be why you see a poor person in a new Lexus). These people come from all over the county for a small box of food. A jar of applesauce, a box of pasta, fruit juice. They do it because they are on small fixed incomes (social security and nothing else, mental or physical disabilities that prevent them from working, generally hard times) and often do not eat the last two days of the month because their money goes into paying rent and electricity. Nobody is there if they are not on someone's list, most of them have a social worker. It would be an incredible waste of time and money to look for a "cheat" because these people have already been vetted, so to speak. The workers at the food give away are all volunteer except sometimes for a single manager who takes time from her other duties to stop by.

I hope you never have to use this service.


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2014)

Bad enough being poor and having to be classified as a "bum", but really bad when you have cancer and are classified as a double bum because you get "medical marijuana" and/or "disability". The lack of humanity in these threads by supposed homesteading sorts is both depressing and demeaning to the rest of us who consider our luck in our own health, and don't bother degrading the less fortunate.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

zong said:


> Bad enough being poor and having to be classified as a "bum", but really bad when you have cancer and are classified as a double bum because you get "medical marijuana" and/or "disability". The lack of humanity in these threads by supposed homesteading sorts is both depressing and demeaning to the rest of us who consider our luck in our own health, and don't bother degrading the less fortunate.


This is true. 

But also the fact that so many people who are "making it" and deride and mock those who aren't are simply a hair's breath away from not making it themselves.

Someone told me today, "The economy is not going to improve until we get rid of Obama."

I thought about that and I realized that this person doesn't really get it. This economy is OVER. It goes beyond just America and American politics. The only reason people in China have jobs in factories is because the Federal Reserve is printing money left and right for Americans to buy those products. There simply is no other emerging market which will take the place of the American one when it falls.

When the other shoe drops, the bottom is literally going to fall out of everyone's economy. Only the most primitive, most remote tribes in the jungle will see no change in their lifestyles.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I am sorry if I came off as degrading, was not my intention.
Like I said, people who need it, need it, but I have first hand seen folks who only think they need assistance, where if they were to cut back on some of their unneeded luxuries, they could afford to buy more for themselves.
I also see pure laziness being a big factor. About 2 miles from me lives a family with about 1.5 to 2 acres of yard, surrounded by cornfields. They had a couple of tomato plants in pots on their patio last year, that was it as far as food production. There is an old shed at the back of their yard that could easily be made into or used as a chicken coop. Plenty of lawn that could be used as a vegetable garden, but they won't do it. I have offered them (they have 4 kids) green beans from my garden, but refused because "they don't like green beans". Also offered them fresh eggs, but was told no thanks because they just don't use a lot of eggs.
Yet they fill their freezer with frozen dinners that are purchased with food stamps.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The only objective sought by the *TPTB* in _*their*_ "charitable" efforts is the compromise of the species through denial of survival of the fittest.

I'd say that, in the last 100 years, they've just about domesticated the common man to the extent that he cannot survive natural circumstances on earth.

They know they are close, and we are seeing their intent to ramp up efforts to that end.

Where man is denied the necessity of struggle for his survival, he is immediately subject to atrophy of mind, body and spirit.

"Nothing in politics happens by accident."


Harsh it may come across.......but until the cancer of self-serving government is eradicated, man will not help himself, let alone his fellow.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

zong said:


> Bad enough being poor and having to be classified as a "bum", but really bad when you have cancer and are classified as a double bum because you get "medical marijuana" and/or "disability". The lack of humanity in these threads by supposed homesteading sorts is both depressing and demeaning to the rest of us who consider our luck in our own health, and don't bother degrading the less fortunate.


Nonsense. The issues mentioned are that some people seem to show up for charity in a way that indicates they have disposable income they prefer to use elsewhere rather than provide for themselves what they basically need. They make use of something they could seem to provide for themselves.
That is criticizing an apparent misuse of charity. And that is not the same thing as criticizing the person who actually needs it but critizing those whose taking means less for those who do need.
My issue was the frequency of allegations that people would starve if you cut back any benefit that never happen. It just that I have heard it too many times.


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

With the drout and bad winter weather I can see this spreading out of the city. It really has nothing to do if you take or would take food stamps.
This is a sign of the economy.
I have a garden but know it's not big enough and what I can't grow for myself is getting more expensive. The cost is why the food banks are not able to refill their shelves. And it's not going to get better.


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2014)

@Dixie Bee Acres: I never meant to imply you as being degrading.

If folks go back and read your first post in this thread, they could see that you've been through a really rough patch, and yet your spirit is unbroken. I hope you fully recover. BUT, imagine that after that rough patch, you hit yet another, and another, and another? Imagine you lived in a town where the only industry went under, sold out to our presumption that giving breaks to China, India, etc was gonna work out. Imagine that your home was worth about half what you owe on it? There are a whole lot of things that go wrong in life. 

As to the welfare mentality sort of thing: welfare is slavery, pure and simple. Who is really to blame? The system that controls welfare, public education, taxes, courts, and so on doesn't mind paying out a few bucks to be sure some people never try, never make a difference, never think on their own. Sleeping, not even dreaming. And, when the time comes, if you're a slave, you do as told. Stand in line and wait. 

I once wrote a long, and pretty well thought out post that I was going to call "Swan Song of the Individual" but, why bother posting that? People are on one side of the fence, or the other, both thinking they're on the right side, and secretly craving that greener grass on the other side. You've got to step away to see clearly. Both sides are owned by the same slavemaster. I remember some time back, a thread in which a guy posted that his family got over a million dollars of medical attention, and he deserved it because he paid a couple thousand dollars a year in insurance. So, his family used $998,000 of medical care they didn't actually pay for. How is that different from somebody using 998,000 of tax dollars for medical attention? 

Some people get beaten so badly in life that they have no choice but to stand in line. And some people are taught from birth that they're losers. 

2 brothers from a poor broken home. One became president of the United States. The other was such a pain in the butt that the secret service gave him the code name "Headache" 
Some very few people rise above it. Most play the hand they were dealt. 

Politicians posturing, ranting and raving. At the end of the day, nothing changes. And that's the way they want it. We voted them in, that must be what we want. 

We have met the enemy, and he is us. (Pogo)


----------



## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

One other consideration, never think you know the backstory regarding those who receive aid. My mother is comfortably settled on the farm next door to us. She has a pleasant although not extravagant lifestyle. Because her income level qualified her to participate in the local Senior citizen food distribution, the director of the program encouraged her to participate in it so that they would have sufficient numbers to keep receiving the support.

She goes once a month and receives her box of food. It is very nice and often includes a mix of prepackaged items, canned goods, staples and sometimes fresh foods. However, she feels it is much more than she needs for herself, so she makes a point of using a few things to make meals for others, and takes the lion's share of the uncooked food to a couple of other families she knows have need and would use the foods given to them. 

So to an outsider, she looks like some scammer who pulls up in a decent car (I think it is a 2001 Oldsmobile), wearing clean, decent clothing (most of which she buys at thrift stores, yet still manages to look like a million dollars), who lives in a nice home on a nice farm. But she does qualify and does make sure all the food goes to good use. I totally agree that there are plenty of people receiving assistance who do not need it, do not use it, and do not deserve it. However, remember that it is hard to judge a book by its cover.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ovsfarm said:


> One other consideration, never think you know the backstory regarding those who receive aid. My mother is comfortably settled on the farm next door to us. She has a pleasant although not extravagant lifestyle. Because her income level qualified her to participate in the local Senior citizen food distribution, the director of the program encouraged her to participate in it so that they would have sufficient numbers to keep receiving the support.
> 
> She goes once a month and receives her box of food. It is very nice and often includes a mix of prepackaged items, canned goods, staples and sometimes fresh foods. However, she feels it is much more than she needs for herself, so she makes a point of using a few things to make meals for others, and takes the lion's share of the uncooked food to a couple of other families she knows have need and would use the foods given to them.
> 
> So to an outsider, she looks like some scammer who pulls up in a decent car (I think it is a 2001 Oldsmobile), wearing clean, decent clothing (most of which she buys at thrift stores, yet still manages to look like a million dollars), who lives in a nice home on a nice farm. But she does qualify and does make sure all the food goes to good use. I totally agree that there are plenty of people receiving assistance who do not need it, do not use it, and do not deserve it. However, remember that it is hard to judge a book by its cover.


But there must be something wrong somewhere if a person qualifies for something they don't need or want. And the director encouraged her to participate to keep the money coming.
Could it be that "programs" have become a self fulfilling? If you have the money to distribute, then you had best dig up the need?
Somehow this thread ended up on the "don't judge me" train as if it is politically incorrect to question the effectiveness or validity of anything related to the word poor. 
The truth is that the definition and standards of "poor" are reaching an all time low- or high if you think about it. The latest bump up in benefits for all is the Obamacare Medicaid eligibility standards that excludes a lot of resources. In otherwords, someone who has a whole lot, more than enough to take care of themselves, still finds themselves able to get, or worst prevent from refusing, welfare.

Something is seriously out of whack when it starts to be hard to find someone who isn't getting some form of government handout.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Anyone defending "aid" provided by taxes forced from the hand of your neighbor, is defending socialism, plain and simple.

Open and _voluntary_ charity is just that, and used to more than suffice.
Which are we after, socialism rapidly morphing into communist tyranny......or a free republic ?


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> and used to more than suffice.


When?


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Enjoy the tyranny when it catches up with YOU, Tiempo.


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

My mother used to say something about looking the gift horse in the mouth.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

My Father told me not to accept a benefit from civil government, because they are _deceitful meats_.......

Proverbs 23:1-3

He also told me to _labor, working with my hands, that I may have to give to him that needs.

_So do look that gift horse in the mouth, and determine whether it is a gift, freely given by its producer.....or a bribe from civil government intended to forcefully deprive the producer and to deceptively indebt the recipient to a future burden of likely unbearable consequence._
_


----------



## windhound (Mar 18, 2008)

snowcap said:


> My mother used to say something about looking the gift horse in the mouth.


Hmmm, how did that work out for the city of Troy?


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> Enjoy the tyranny when it catches up with YOU, Tiempo.


That doesn't answer my question, not that you are obligated to answer it.

I didn't offer an opinion of public assistance one way or the other, it certainly has never broadly solved the problem of hunger but you said that private charity used to be enough and I wondered.. When was it enough?


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

It was "enough" before government came along to forcibly extract from the dwindling working class, only to enable an entire generation who makes a career of milking the dole.

No program, forced or otherwise, will ever eradicate poverty, nor hunger.

There must be individual incentive to overcome both, and socialism does not provide that incentive. It only destroys it.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> It was "enough" before government came along to forcibly extract from the dwindling working class, only to enable an entire generation who makes a career of milking the dole.
> 
> No program, forced or otherwise, will ever eradicate poverty, nor hunger.
> 
> There must be individual incentive to overcome both, and socialism does not provide that incentive. It only destroys it.


So, when was it enough? What did 'enough' look like?

Dude, it's never, ever been enough. That doesn't mean that socialism is the answer but to claim private charity has ever been enough is ludicrous.


----------



## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

Here is an example of the problems of government involvement in helping those in need. I had a friend and family member that worked hard most of his life. He did some things in his younger days that caught up with him, and he was convicted of a felony. He did his time for his crime, but could no longer get a job because of his history. He didn't let this turn him to a life of illegal dealings, but continued to try and make a living selling odd and ins. He had a small retirement to work with, and finally took early SS benefits. He still struggled financially, and was told he qualified for Food Stamps. He applied for them, and got them. As I would go to his house to visit, he would always offer me steaks, salmon, and other expensive cuts of meat. I finally asked him what was going on, because I knew he was still struggling with his finances. He told me that he couldn't use all the money they were giving him with the food stamps. He said he tried to talk to them about getting the money reduced, because he felt guilty to be getting so much money. They told him he had to take and use the amount that he was getting, or they would take it all away from him. He said he tried to tell them that it was just too much. So as far as I know, he is still buying the most expensive things he can, and tries to give extras to others that might need it. He told me the last time I talked to him that he could have fed his whole family of 5 on the amount he was getting for just himself. He no longer tries to find regular work, because of his past. He still tries to make money selling items he finds at a good price. It is bad that his one mistake that took place so many years ago, had to change his life so much. By the time his crime caught up with him, he was and is a much different man. No, I don't want anyone to feel sorry for him for paying for his crime. I just feel bad that our society has turned into what it has. A person that wants to work can't find work, and he is 65 yrs old. They try to tell the government that the help he is getting is too much, and they tell him to shut his mouth and take what they are giving him. He once told me that he wished they would help him be able to start his own business, or be able to find work, then to give him more money than he needs for food stamps. I hope anyone who is reading this that may be younger, and are tempted to make moral and legal mistakes would realize how that choice can affect you so many years later. Not just for a little while, but for the rest of your life. I know there may be many on here that will say he could find work if he really wanted to. You may or may not be right, but I know from my many talks with him that he tried hard to find work. I know others will say that he could find some way of starting a business, even if it is scrap metal, yard cleaning, trash hauling or what ever. I know I am not near as old as he is, and I find it hard to know what rules and regulations you have to meet to start your own business. Also all the accounting that needs to be done. I just wish or government would help the people buy allowing them to start a business without so much tax and regulations. I truly wish that I could learn to be very good at starting and running a business, so I could then teach the young adults, and those that are struggling to learn to do the same. Our nation use to be a nation of doers, and now we our a nation of regulations.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> So, when was it enough? What did 'enough' look like?
> 
> Dude, it's never, ever been enough. That doesn't mean that socialism is the answer but to claim private charity has ever been enough is ludicrous.


Have you ever witnessed a society that lived in the absence of forced taxation and socialist policy, to know what "enough" may have looked like.....long, long ago ?

Widespread famine and economic depravity are very rare outside of artificially manipulated and sustained societies.

Just because there is NO WAY that voluntary charity and neighborly concern could sustain the current population does not mean that voluntary charity was not "enough" before the wide scale manipulation began.

Perhaps we could find common ground if we weren't comparing today's apples with yesterday's oranges.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I see you prefer not to answer. Fair enough.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> That doesn't mean that socialism is the answer, but .......



Thanks for the bone, all the same.


----------



## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

I have a question about who can use a food stamp card? Is it possible for someone to take someone else's card, go to the store for them and purchase items with said card?

If so, the Lexus person could have been picking up groceries for a friend or family member or church member, using their card.

A quick thing to ponder too: thrift store. Many frugal people have designer or very high-end items that they bought at a thrift store for next to nothing.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Homesteader said:


> I have a question about who can use a food stamp card? Is it possible for someone to take someone else's card, go to the store for them and purchase items with said card?
> 
> If so, the Lexus person could have been picking up groceries for a friend or family member or church member, using their card.
> 
> A quick thing to ponder too: thrift store. Many frugal people have designer or very high-end items that they bought at a thrift store for next to nothing.


Everything in the world has a possiblilty. So which is the most likely possibility? That a rich person driving the Lexis would choose not to financially assist but would rather show up with a food stamp card to make purchases themselves? Possible but unlikely in the numbers I've seen. 
A person could have found a 99% percent bargain in a thrift store but at the rate seen? Unlikely.

If possibilities are to be used as tests of reality, then there is no test.

The government seems to be willing to throw money around like it's never ending, which if derived from taxes is what it is to them, but has become very unwilling to spend anything on ensuring that the money is spent effectively and correctly. It has opted to avoid controversy by eliminating standards rather that meeting them. It has set a plate of money out on it then demands ever more when that money is freely taken to poor effect.

Obama, for example, is perfectly fine without reducing cola level for Social Security recipients while there is a constant stream of ads on the TV encouraging seniors to sign up for food stamps "a federally funded program to ensure senior's well being." There is a serious twist in the brain that will think it is good to tax off money, pay for two levels of bureaucracy to administer a program to supplement income, then have to advertise it. Which I'm sure was paid for with a grant to funded to increase useage.

The taxes are a demand backed with penalties while the grants come and go at whim. it honors dependency rather than independence.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Very good post startupman. I know a guy like that, the rules keep him from doing to much to better himself. He younger than me but has been on disability, food stamps etc since his release from prison. He can only find part time work due to being a felon. The only bright spot is he does a lot of fishing and woods rambling.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

zong said:


> Bad enough being poor and having to be classified as a "bum", but really bad when you have cancer and are classified as a double bum because you get "medical marijuana" and/or "disability". The lack of humanity in these threads by supposed homesteading sorts is both depressing and demeaning to the rest of us who consider our luck in our own health, and don't bother degrading the less fortunate.


These people that I know are not on mj for cancer....the father is a child rapist, the son went up for attempted murder...bow hunts and fishes and hauls scrap(bad back disability mind you) and drink and smoke mj all day long...no matter if driving...the ex gf of the father is younger than the son and a nutcase prostitute getting a full boat...housing to mj.....because they had offspring.
My friend who just had a double mastectomy for BC is on med mj and it helps her. She has worked FT her whole life. So not all eggs go in the same basket...

And more....someone who has extra FS money could buy bulk items such as beans rice oats and flour for the local pantry or similar....and God bless them for using the program frugally!


----------



## Oma2three (May 5, 2012)

where I want to, My husband and I are volunteers at a good size food bank.Have been for 12 or 13 years.We are open 5 times a week,and serve over 700 families on a regular basis .We are all volunteers, about 90% of us are retired.Not only do we give our time also pay for our own gas to pick up food from places that donate.None of the 80 some volunteers get paid ,many of us donate food and money on top of it.Trust me we have seen it all,and there is a lot of abuse.Many of our clients drive much newer and better cars,have fancier cell phones,are not ashamed to smoke in line (outside),are picky on what they will choose,because they don't like it and the list goes on!!And most of them tell us they get FS and WIC as well. I am talking about people who come every month for as many years as we have served there.To be honest I don't do it for them or if they are to lazy to work, but the old people who can't make it on their meager income.i hate to say it ,but many people have no pride in providing for their families .they rather take hand outs .On guy said the other day ,I could go to work ,but for 100 dollars a day it's not worth it .I get more staying at home.A big strong guy in his forty with a wife and 3 kids.Now that is disgusting in my eyes!


----------



## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

Oma2three said:


> where I want to, My husband and I are volunteers at a good size food bank.Have been for 12 or 13 years.We are open 5 times a week,and serve over 700 families on a regular basis .We are all volunteers, about 90% of us are retired.Not only do we give our time also pay for our own gas to pick up food from places that donate.None of the 80 some volunteers get paid ,many of us donate food and money on top of it.Trust me we have seen it all,and there is a lot of abuse.Many of our clients drive much newer and better cars,have fancier cell phones,are not ashamed to smoke in line (outside),are picky on what they will choose,because they don't like it and the list goes on!!And most of them tell us they get FS and WIC as well. I am talking about people who come every month for as many years as we have served there.To be honest I don't do it for them or if they are to lazy to work, but the old people who can't make it on their meager income.i hate to say it ,but many people have no pride in providing for their families .they rather take hand outs .*On guy said the other day ,I could go to work ,but for 100 dollars a day it's not worth it .I get more staying at home.*A big strong guy in his forty with a wife and 3 kids.Now that is disgusting in my eyes!


 This is exactly why I think that food stamp, and unemployment benefits should be reduced over time. Sure, give plenty of help when someone hits hard times. Maybe give them a month to get back on their feet. After that point, the benefits start reducing weekly, until it is no longer worth it for them to stay at home. This would allow them to know ahead of time how much the funds are going to be going down, so they can prepare.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Oma2three said:


> On guy said the other day ,I could go to work ,but for 100 dollars a day it's not worth it .I get more staying at home.A big strong guy in his forty with a wife and 3 kids.Now that is disgusting in my eyes!


He has a wife and 3 children. If he can legitimately make more being a slave to the government than being a slave to some corporation, then his pride (or laziness) has nothing to do with the issue.

Regardless of YOUR opinion of him, he's actually providing for his family in the most financially lucrative manner, which is the same thing many of you do ... you take the job that pays the most.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

thestartupman said:


> This is exactly why I think that food stamp, and unemployment benefits should be reduced over time. Sure, give plenty of help when someone hits hard times. Maybe give them a month to get back on their feet. After that point, the benefits start reducing weekly, until it is no longer worth it for them to stay at home. This would allow them to know ahead of time how much the funds are going to be going down, so they can prepare.


Prepare how?

Where are the jobs? Is he going to pack up and move to China?

Y'all seem to think that all these welfare recipients are sitting at home solely because they're lazy and don't want to work. Some are, to be sure, but many more simply don't see any other way. They were taught to be employees and to be useful to the system (in the public reeducation camps YOU pay for) and now that they are no longer useful to the system they just sit around with no concept of doing something else.

I have a sheep dog like that. He was really good at herding sheep, and useful, but now that we have no sheep to herd he just sits around, waits to be fed, and bites people. Not entirely his fault. He was taught to be that way. 

Really, it sort of cracks me up. This is penultimate FAILURE of the American educational system. You didn't teach people to think and be free men, you taught them to be employees. But now that the system doesn't need so many employees, thanks to multinational corporatism, technology, and a failing American economy, what are all these monodidacts capable of doing?


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Imho, there's no food shortage in the cities... there is a shortage of free food in the cities. Big difference, it's there, but people don't want (I know, some 'can't', but I imagine those truly unable are less than 1%) to work for it.

I challenge anyone to say they cannot live high on the hog, living off of SNAP. Even when I lose my mind, I cannot buy as much food for the two of us to eat, that we'd be getting if we were on SNAP. What we do have in this country is a close minded view of drugs, that the naturally weak citizens have to have to cope with their miserable lives. SNAP never goes far enough, because they have to be traded for needed drugs. The govt should ask every welfare recipient exactly what their needs are, and fulfill them. Tobacco, here's two packs a day (or snuff, or chaw)... Alcohol? How many cases a beer or bottles of whiskey/wine do you need? Weed? sure... Black tar heroin? no problem. Give them whatever they need.... and 'then', the 'hunger' problem goes away.



where I want to said:


> How many skeletons of starved people just lying around have been seen?


 Daresay no one's seen skeleton's.... but, how many 'waddlers'? (morbidly obese)



Maura said:


> I volunteer for the HDC. On free food days I see no one in Cadillacs. Many of them get a ride because they have no car, or no longer drive. (has no one ever heard of borrowing a car- this may be why you see a poor person in a new Lexus). These people come from all over the county for a small box of food. A jar of applesauce, a box of pasta, fruit juice. They do it because they are on small fixed incomes (social security and nothing else, mental or physical disabilities that prevent them from working, generally hard times) and often do not eat the last two days of the month because their money goes into paying rent and electricity. Nobody is there if they are not on someone's list, most of them have a social worker. It would be an incredible waste of time and money to look for a "cheat" because these people have already been vetted, so to speak. The workers at the food give away are all volunteer except sometimes for a single manager who takes time from her other duties to stop by.
> 
> I hope you never have to use this service.


It costs me $8 to make a trip to town... wonder if those picking up a few dollars worth of freebies take into consideration it costs them more to get their freebies than they're worth?



Forerunner said:


> It was "enough" before government came along to forcibly extract from the dwindling working class, only to enable an entire generation who makes a career of milking the dole.
> 
> No program, forced or otherwise, will ever eradicate poverty, nor hunger.
> 
> There must be individual incentive to overcome both, and socialism does not provide that incentive. It only destroys it.


Pay someone to not work... guess what weak minded people will do....

"David Atkinson, 66, is among the pantry regulars who rely on disability benefits. He said he has been unable to work since his wife died about five years ago, leaving him with crippling depression. They had been living in North Carolina when she passed away, after which Atkinson returned to his hometown of New York, where he knew he could navigate the local welfare system well enough to survive." This guy 'can't' work, and why should he... he knows how to work the welfare programs... In most quarters, this guy would be called a leech.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Ernie, you sure can put it out there. These last two posts are full of insight lacking in most people.

Having dealt with many families in my career at one of those "public reeducation camps", I spent a great amount of time telling the kids to THINK. Some of them actually did and still do.

At the last school, there was a large area of mobile homes. Families would come in and buy one and put down a down payment, then nothing until they were evicted, at which time they would go down and buy another one and do the same until they were found out and no one would sell to them. The kids were brought up in that system and that is how they functioned. They played the system.

I could give numerous examples of how this would be done. Won't change a thing. I had students living in the same mobile home thier parents grew up in and the parents and grand parents were still living there. Don't know how they did it as some were very small single wides. Some sat on as much as 5 acres of what was once good farm land, and it was grown up in Johnson Grass when it was possible to grow a big garden and some animals, but they didn't want to even mow it twice a year.

When I retired the numbers of Hispanic families were increasing, and they would have gardens, poultry and cattle and horses and produce something. I got along with those folks much better than the city folks livin in the country on assistance and not trying to provide anything for themselves.

BTW, at to public reeducation, I fought a long battle with TPTB for over 30 years in an attempt to teach my students to think and be creative. I pushed many to go to trade schools when the system was pushing for college. NOt all should go to college, nor are they able to handle the work at college, too many are not able to function at basic levels, but teachers can't say that it might damage self esteem of 16 year old freshmen that can't read.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Ernie said:


> He has a wife and 3 children. If he can legitimately make more being a slave to the government than being a slave to some corporation, then his pride (or laziness) has nothing to do with the issue.
> 
> Regardless of YOUR opinion of him, he's actually providing for his family in the most financially lucrative manner, which is the same thing many of you do ... you take the job that pays the most.


His being a slave to the government, who uses my labor to pay him, is much worse for everyone than being slave to a corporation ( a dubious idea in the first place), at which point he is contributing his labor in some fashion. A person who contributes has a right to pride in that.
If there is no job working for someone else, than you make your own. It is something that many have done.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

where I want to said:


> If there is no job working for someone else, than you make your own. It is something that many have done.


Clearly I'm not opposed to that concept, but I also think that "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" version of America is long gone.

I'm a business owner, and there's a lot of other business owners on this website as well. Do we do a lot of selling of our products to each other? I know I don't, and I would be surprised to find out that others are doing so.

Small business owners tend to ... well, to be perfectly frank ... be broke as hell. They don't have a lot of disposable income.

99% of my customer base has a real job and a real income with which to buy my products. 

There is plenty of room in the economy for SOME small businesses, clearly. And some of those small ones may grow to large ones and actually employ others. 

But ultimately, what such an economy looks like on a national level is pre-Civil War era and I don't see any return to it anytime soon.

In the final days of the Roman Empire, they had massive unemployment because the wars of conquest had flooded the empire with cheap slaves. Heck, slaves were so cheap and plentiful that even some slaves could afford to have THEIR own slaves. 

And this put a lot of ditch-digging, vegetable-picking, street-cleaning free men out of a job. Which is how the Roman "dole" came about. The famous "bread and circuses". The Roman government knew that people wouldn't just sit back and let themselves starve. You either provide a climate where they can take care of themselves, or you take care of them. From the point of view of a government, that's just the only two systems if you want to remain in power.

I don't judge anyone who is on the dole. It simply is where we are today as a nation. I know plenty of employed men who aren't worth their pay, and I know plenty of unemployed people who WOULD be worth their pay if they could find the right job, but they're more or less a square peg in a round hole.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Something else to consider ...

In what fields could the poor glean? Are you going to let them onto your property to glean your fields after you've harvested? Probably not. Everyone is too afraid of being sued if someone falls and hurts themselves. Or they're too afraid that some poor person will see what they have prepped and come after them when the apocalypse hits.

If the poor go knocking door to door looking for work, do you have anything they could do? Do you have any you would let them do? Or would you move them along at the point of the gun? Can we trust to let desperate strangers into our homes these days to work for their bread? I don't see that happening.

Where are our kinsmen-redeemers? Where is the Mosaic law which allows the poor some dignity to glean after it is done?

We are all Ruth without Boaz.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Something else to consider ...
> 
> In what fields could the poor glean? Are you going to let them onto your property to glean your fields after you've harvested? Probably not. Everyone is too afraid of being sued if someone falls and hurts themselves. Or they're too afraid that some poor person will see what they have prepped and come after them when the apocalypse hits.
> 
> ...


Yes I do and yes I would. And would be grateful for both the labor which I need and the privilege of helping someone who I respect.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Yes I do and yes I would. And would be grateful for both the labor which I need and the privilege of helping someone who I respect.


Well, you're one. Hope you have deep pockets when the 91.8 million people who are currently unemployed come beating a path to your door looking for some labor to do.


----------



## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

Tiempo said:


> So, when was it enough?


Before the people who took outnumbered the people who gave.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Vash said:


> Before the people who took outnumbered the people who gave.


Or you could say, "when the people who HAVE outnumbered the people who NEED."

I just don't buy the argument that EVERYONE on the dole is there because they are a lazy SOB who wouldn't lift a finger to better themselves. I know quite a few people on the dole and none of them are like that. Now granted, most of them are there because they aren't creative enough not to be, but in many cases they are _products of the system_. As useless as a Phillips screwdriver when all you have is a handful of nails. 

They could have filled in a space on an assembly line just as good as you do, or as good as their grandparents did, but now that assembly line is full of Chinese.


----------



## fishinshawn (Nov 8, 2010)

Vash said:


> Before the people who took outnumbered the people who gave.


Great non answer:goodjob:

Ernie has had some great posts in this thread, and it is clear that many people believe all one has to do is work hard to get ahead in this world, work hard and you will amass great wealth, the american dream. Sadly for most, that dream, that america, is dead. Sold off and transfered to Mexico, India, China, and most recently Vietnam and some other 3rd world places. 

The rich have found the last way to get richer. They employ people over seas to make crappy products, for next to nothing, the products are not made to last, and we have to continue buying them. So now that they figured that out they just had to figure out how to make sure americans would have just enough money to keep buying their crappy products, now that they had sent away all the decent jobs. The answer to that was to buy the politicians, to control the government, that controls the people. Then they control the media, the dissemination of information, they keep the average citizen right where they want them. Constantly HOPING for a better life, seeing just enough of the good life to make them think they might just get it.


----------



## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

at the end of the 2013 harvest,i called the local Baptist food pantry.i had a bushel of mixed winter squash I wanted to donate.got told cash or canned only!then they hung up...


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

bigjon said:


> at the end of the 2013 harvest,i called the local Baptist food pantry.i had a bushel of mixed winter squash I wanted to donate.got told cash or canned only!then they hung up...


God will bless you for trying anyway.

I know of at least SIX people on this forum who are reading this thread who are on the dole. They're not going to speak up for themselves after having it inferred that they're only there because they're lazy or stupid, and so I speak up for them.

And they are HERE. On a homesteading forum learning how to do for themselves! This isn't a glorified chat room, though that's about all the input some people give to it. Those people on the dole are HERE, learning how to knit, how to preserve food, how to cook winter squash!

America is a FAILED STATE. We have to go back to the old economy, the one before being an employee with a pension was considered the ideal. But we can't get there easily. And if some people need the dole as a temporary bridge, then I'm not going to judge them for it.

My bridge was a really big honkin' paycheck that I used to get clear of the system. Did I deserve it? Heck no. Almost ALL of you worked harder than I did and got paid far less for your efforts. 

So at the end of the day, I would MUCH rather see threads here where someone felt comfortable saying, "How do I stretch out my food stamp budget as far as possible with real, healthy food instead of processed junk?" as opposed to thread after thread from people bashing those who are on the dole claiming they are lazy.

Especially when it's people who talk about how hard working they are but yet post on this forum _all day long_ when they're stealing time from their employer. (You know who you are.)


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Well, you're one. Hope you have deep pockets when the 91.8 million people who are currently unemployed come beating a path to your door looking for some labor to do.


I only have to have one ask and be able to do it. It will multiply when my neighbors find some who wants the work.


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

I see there is 2 different Americas now. One has to make choices, I guess.


----------



## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

snowcap said:


> I see there is 2 different Americas now. One has to make choices, I guess.


There are absolutely 2 different Americas:
http://www.wham1180.com/onair/bob-lonsberry-3440/two-americas-11890777/


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Excellent summation, Vash.


----------



## WV Farm girl (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes Vash, excellent article. "Income Equality" isn't that basically what communism was/is based on? Is that what we Americans really want? 
Yes, I believe there are ppl on the dole that don't want to be there, that are there either because of unfortunate events or unfortunate decisions, however there are far more there because they can be. 
I worked for 6 yrs as an HR Director. Had numerous nurse aides refuse OT or ask to go part time in order to keep food stamps/benefits. Plenty of work for them but easier to take government handouts then work.


----------



## hurryiml8 (Apr 15, 2009)

A lot of places are only accepting applications online now. I have been trying to help someone fill out applications online. Let me tell you, it's really hard. I have a college degree and I can't fill these things out. There's 50-70 of the stupidest questions I have ever read and the answers to pick from are equally stupid. These are places like dollar general and taco bell. She is hoping when local tourist businesses open back up, she will find a job then. Things are really tough for people who are under-educated or can't use a computer.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I guess the reason that I have serious doubts about this percieved job desert is that immigrants, illegal and legal, seem to find jobs readily enough to stay here. Almost every service involving physical labor from plumbing through construction are full of people who have issues with English- obviously not native born and probably not living here long. Every other restaurant has non native born help and about half are owned by non natives.
Then there are the difficulties finding people who will do things like cleaning out gutters or fencing or painting, etc. And frequently, if a work crew contants anyone over twenty, their actions are fully of questionable judgements, implying drug use.
And again the huge number of people involved in drug production and sales. 
No- it seems more likely we have a substantial populace who is interested in only doing what they want and that want does not include sweating.
If you offer a service at a price people can afford and they need, there will be opportunities.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

If democraps want income equality, maybe all politicians should drop there income levels down to the national average income....

Just sayin


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Food stamps and charity aren't supposed to be enough. They are just supposed to help. You do have to help your self some.

My neighbor offered her lawn to her daughter for a garden. It had been a garden, but she had a tiller If she needed to make it bigger.
She complained her food stamps weren't enough. But she said no. I almost offered to do it and split with her.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

snowcap said:


> Food stamps and charity aren't supposed to be enough. They are just supposed to help. You do have to help your self some.
> 
> My neighbor offered her lawn to her daughter for a garden. It had been a garden, but she had a tiller If she needed to make it bigger.
> She complained her food stamps weren't enough. But she said no. I almost offered to do it and split with her.


I saw a study recently, can't find it to link now, but it showed something that surprised me.

The majority of food stamp households _are working households_.

I've had a long time and a lot of thought to put towards living in "poverty". And for me and my household, it was a choice. 

For someone who never put any thought to it, and never made that choice but was suddenly thrust into it ... I would suspect that life is hellish.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Ernie.....you consistently sell the sustainable lifestyle way short.

Personally, as per the merits of lifestyle alone, I am absolutely in my element, and wouldn't change a single particular.

What is it about your own situation that you esteem less than "ideal"?


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I saw a study recently, can't find it to link now, but it showed something that surprised me.
> 
> The majority of food stamp households _are working households_.
> 
> ...


The article makes these people sound helpless. It kinda makes me angry.
It's taken me awhile to understand it's more about agendas than helping the poor. 
The reason I say this is no suggestion other than tax dollars will make these people happy. I suspect if the people were given a chance they would do what ever they need to. But their plight is being used by who ever. Most of the goverment programs are about what the goverment cronies can get out of it.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> What is it about your own situation that you esteem less than "ideal"?


That I did not embark upon it at the age of 20, so that I might have had more infrastructure, better soil, and better skills by the time I arrived at this age, and therefore entered into a much more sedate and steady course.

Building a homestead is a young man's game. On days where I work heartily, I find that I am thoroughly exhausted by 4pm, when there's still several hours of usable daylight left in which I should be accomplishing.

While it is better late than never, I rue the wasted years.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2012-march/what’s-behind-the-rise-in-snap-participation.aspx

"Over time, most States have adopted what has come to be called broad-based categorical eligibility standards, which make low-income households eligible for SNAP when they receive an informational pamphlet or other low-cost intervention produced with TANF funds. States using the broad-based option are also allowed to eliminate all assets from consideration in determining eligibility and to raise the gross income eligibility cutoff above 130 percent up to a maximum of 200 percent of the Federal poverty level. The broad-based option is attractive to State administrators because it reduces the time spent asking about and verifying assets and the administrative errors for which States are held accountable. Applicants also benefit by not having to provide documentation verifying their assets.

Delaware, Maine, North Dakota, and Oregon were early implementers of the broad-based option, and nine States were using it in 2002. Over the decade, more States adopted the option, especially after 2006. By FY 2010, 37 States had adopted the broad-based option, accounting for 84 percent of caseloads. Of these, only Texas and Minnesota did not completely eliminate the asset test, 20 States raised the gross income cutoff for eligibility above 130 percent of the Federal poverty level, and 3 States increased the gross income cutoff only for households with children."

A lot of people are remember from the days when food stamps counted most things as assets- in most states, they don't anymore.
Food stamps spending did increase during the recession due to job loss but more because of the elimination of counting retirement and education accounts as assets along with an increase in the amount that a family can receive.

That was part of the debate in Congress over the most recent Farm Bill, which is 80% food stamps and 20% farm related- whether the increase in payment levels that was part of the 2008 stimulus bill should moved back .


----------



## firestick (Oct 19, 2008)

For the last couple of years I've been looking for someone to clear snow from my parking pad (2cars), 15ft of sidewalk and 2 small decks. It used to take 20 minutes for me to do it but I am no longer physically able to. Commercial services want $50-$100. I've talked to all of the teenagers in my neighbourhood. I've offered$20. No chance. Too hard. Same with cutting a 750 sq.ft. lawn. Times aren't hard yet. 
I'm out of here this summer and into a 30ft 5th wheel. Anybody want to buy a place cheap?
Bill


----------



## triana1326 (Feb 13, 2006)

zong said:


> Bad enough being poor and having to be classified as a "bum", but really bad when you have cancer and are classified as a double bum because you get "medical marijuana" and/or "disability". The lack of humanity in these threads by supposed homesteading sorts is both depressing and demeaning to the rest of us who consider our luck in our own health, and don't bother degrading the less fortunate.


I'm going to second this because this is not even close to the first time I've read posts from "good honest people" who are deriding and putting down those who are in actual need of food assistance, medical assistance, and yes, even medical marijuana. 

My family of 5, my husband, myself, our two small kids, and my disabled, elderly mother, are on food stamps and MaineCare. We visit a local food pantry when we can because the fruits and veggies I get there fill out the nutritional needs that I can't grow or buy myself. My family of 5 gets about $200 in food stamps. We have a 14 year old car that my husband uses for work, which means that if I want to go anywhere, I have to borrow my mother's car&#8230; and yes, it's a Cadillac. My mother worked hard as a telemarketer for two years to earn the money to pay for it used, and paid for it in full. My husband is a social worker who routinely puts in 50 hour work weeks, and I pick up every odd job that I can as a stay at home mother to fill in the gaps between heating oil bills and utility bills. Because of some serious hard work and stretching EVERY penny we have, there's finally light at the end of our financial tunnel.

At least I thought so&#8230;our food stamps are going to be cut even further. My mother's "wealthy people" 2002 car just died and we're down to our old clunker, leaving me and two kids stranded at home and no longer able to go to the food pantry unless another person is willing to drive us all in. My husband and I are about to lose our health insurance through MaineCare, which means we're either without insurance or we have to buy into his company's plan - $200 out of each paycheck. We garden and barter and trade for a lot of things we wouldn't be able to afford. 

I tell you ALL of this because I want to know what is "good enough" for those of you who call people on government assistance, "slackers" "deadbeats" "bums"&#8230;What is the litmus test to determine if a person is deserving of assistance? Do they have to have a garden, and if so, how big is good enough for you? Do they not qualify if they aren't raising chickens? Canning? What about people who once had money to buy nice things and now they've lost their job and are barely scraping together bus money to get to that food bank? For the woman on the first page who mentioned a woman who had a Coach bag - I was at Savers in Portsmouth, NH last week - found two Louis Vitton bags and a Prada bag there for about $10 each. That's a far cry from $400&#8230;but is it possible she got lucky at a thrift store like I did? Maybe that fancy car she just got in was borrowed from a friend so she could go to the grocery store&#8230;I know I got a lot of evil glares pulling up to the food bank in my mother's BORROWED Cadillac. What if that city dweller doesn't have access to a balcony or a patch of grass? Perhaps even if they did have a patch of ground to grow a garden in, they happen to be working three jobs to keep their heads above water. Do you think you'd have energy to dig and weed and till after working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week? 

My point is simple. You don't know a person's story until you've walked in their shoes. Yes, there is theft and fraud in the welfare system. That happens in EVERY system, EVERY company, and EVERY program. I'm not excusing it, and it should be stopped. Those bad apples do indeed spoil the barrel. But stop looking down on those who are using the welfare system as it was intended. It's absolutely infuriating to me that poor people aren't allowed to have even a bit of luxury in their lives, as a way of reminding them that they too are people who are deserving of nice things. I truly hope that those of you who look down their noses at poor people and those in the welfare system never have to join our ranks. It's a horrible, dehumanizing, devaluing place to be&#8230;and I know it firsthand.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"Deserving" is a red herring. The amount of effort needed to cut through the mass of complaints, stories and allegations is well beyond any agency on the face of the earth. "Deserving" should never be an issue. The person you see complaining may be a fraud while the person not saying a thing might be in real need.
What is important is that welfare should take care of basic human needs like food, clothing, life saving medical care and shelter without being so comfortable a place that it invites a life long stay just because it's easier than doing what other people manage to do. The taking of one person's resource to give to another should be a serious undertaking.
Frankly there are more than enough people who believe that having less than another is reason enough to take.
You are right welfare is dehumanizing because being human includes taking care of yourself before demanding others do that. If you do that, then what other people think is an incovenience only.


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

Well both my husband and I are disabled. And it is hard to be on food stamps and we have gone through the cuts too.
But neither one of us will be so disrespectful that we rag on those who help us.
How big of garden do we have, big enough so we can live comfortable. No way do we think others should provide every thing for us.
Feeling sorry for yourself just doesn't do it around here.
I've participated in threads on here trying to help food stamp recipients make theirs go farther and I don't think they want to know. They just want more. The country doesn't have it. And there is so many in need every one is going to have to have a little less.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

snowcap said:


> Well both my husband and I are disabled. And it is hard to be on food stamps and we have gone through the cuts too.
> But neither one of us will be so disrespectful that we rag on those who help us.
> How big of garden do we have, big enough so we can live comfortable. No way do we think others should provide every thing for us.
> Feeling sorry for yourself just doesn't do it around here.
> I've participated in threads on here trying to help food stamp recipients make theirs go farther and I don't think they want to know. They just want more. The country doesn't have it. And there is so many in need every one is going to have to have a little less.


I am so happy to hear someone say so. It does not bother me at all to see tax money go for most social programs. Sometimes I feel warm and fuzzy about it. 
But that is not enough. It seems like I am required to voice loud and continous approval no matter what a person says. I am also required not notice any problems and certainly never think that something has gone too far or is not functional. That is taken as a personal insult.
Sincerely I think that taking care of yourself is a primary good for both the person and society, my highest respect goes to those whose goal is the same whether they succeed or not. I honor the goal.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

In my neck of the woods food is no problem even if you don't get food stamps. The food shelfs have income guidelines, but if you qualify you get about $75 worth of food per month for free. But food shelf costs are way lower, about $20 for that amount. They prefer cash donations for that reason. This is good stuff, not generic brands. Lots of staples. Seems like every small town has a food shelf around here. Once a month it's the gathering spot for the area. Then we have another type of foodshelf that has no income limit. You pay $15-$20 and you leave with a half to full shopping cart of food. It's a real carp shoot, some months it's good, others not so good. And if you have need you can pay double and get 2 carts. These are lots of fun, because so many are there. When hockey wasn't as involved I routinely voluntered in this food shelf. And when it looked good, I went home with a load. Seems like the country around here is awash in food. Maybe some other Minnesotans can chime in. But up here the only way to go hungry, is to just go hungry. You really don't have to game the system.


----------



## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

To add to post 61 above, I work p-t in a public library here in LA in a very poor part of the community where many people are partially literate or illiterate. As the above poster mentioned, most job apps here too are on-line. Can't tell you how many hours we spend trying to help people apply for the janitorial/dollar store jobs, when their websites often aren't functioning, and the applicants don't have an e-mail address to get a response. It's the same with the SNAP applications, public housing, unemployment, etc. Just wanted to say that there are barriers to employment for many.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ldc said:


> To add to post 61 above, I work p-t in a public library here in LA in a very poor part of the community where many people are partially literate or illiterate. As the above poster mentioned, most job apps here too are on-line. Can't tell you how many hours we spend trying to help people apply for the janitorial/dollar store jobs, when their websites often aren't functioning, and the applicants don't have an e-mail address to get a response. It's the same with the SNAP applications, public housing, unemployment, etc. Just wanted to say that there are barriers to employment for many.


But why can others succeed?


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

where I want to said:


> But why can others succeed?


No one factor. 

Some persevere, some are better at navigating the morass than others, some give up and just accept the welfare as conditional, some people blame others.

I can't hardly go a week without someone offering me a job or some sort of work. And I haven't filled out any applications or resumes or anything. It's just various people who know me always seem to think I need a job.


----------



## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

The perception of the amount of food in this country doesn't scare me, it's the attitude of those that think others should do for them.
The wal-mart food stamp fiasco, makes me wonder if at some point having a garden will put my family in a position where we are in danger or where people will have to defend their families food.
I am hoping more people finally get that no owes them a living before that time comes. Already there are more break ins and thieft that there was. Used to be you could leave things out, now they go missing. i guess you could put your garden in a big green house so you could lock it up.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

snowcap said:


> The perception of the amount of food in this country doesn't scare me, it's the attitude of those that think others should do for them.
> The wal-mart food stamp fiasco, makes me wonder if at some point having a garden will put my family in a position where we are in danger or where people will have to defend their families food.
> I am hoping more people finally get that no owes them a living before that time comes. Already there are more break ins and thieft that there was. Used to be you could leave things out, now they go missing. i guess you could put your garden in a big green house so you could lock it up.


If a thief comes to your farm in SHTF and wants your labor (in the form of dollars or potatoes) then you will be able to decide for yourself whether to take pity on them and feed them, or to shoot them.

But today the government takes it without your consent and if you protest, then you're the one who gets shot.

Some days, I think that for many Americans, SHTF is the best thing that could happen.


----------



## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

The nearest town to us is 9 miles away and has a population of less than 8,000 people and dropping. The same town has a food bank which is accessed by atleast 470 people once a month as people are only allowed to get food there once a month. There is a soup kitchen every Tuesday run by a local charity, another serves meals every second Thuirsday of the month. There is also a breakfast program for kids who need a free meal.In rercent years there has been a big increase in the number of people accessing these services . Many people leave this area to look for work. Others can't afford to leave and need help. The problem is those who do have jobs are contributing less to food programs and the food bank. They are struggling to feed their own families and pay their bills. 
Not everyone takes advantage of the food bank and free meals but some do. It is dishearrting to see the long line of people waiting for free food every Tuesday and many are smoking, others talk about the lottery tickets they buy or going to play Bingo! No wonder the working person who can't afford to do these things may think twice about contributing to the food banks!


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

I used to volunteer for a food pantry and would budget every year to "buy" Thanksgiving and Christmas for a needy family that would apply for help from the organization I volunteered for. One year they had so many families apply that they didn't have enough drivers. Since I volunteered for more than just the one or two times a year they asked me to drive. At the time, I stayed at home with my kids who were little and my husband worked and it took a lot of budgeting to do this. I got the turkey and all the fixings and had bought toys and some items the adults wanted and plied everything into my old van and drove to the area where the family lived which was about 70 miles away. I got to a "row house" in the neighborhood (a very bad one by the way) and my kids and I carried everything up the stairs into the house. The first thing that hit me was the HUGE big screen TV. I couldn't afford one of those. Surrounding the TV was a mountain of DVDs as well as video games. I couldn't afford those either. Strewn around the place were expensive Little Tykes toys. I could only afford them if I bought them at garage sales. By this time I was POed. I was carrying this turkey and bags full of food and toys for a family that obviously were doing better that my family was doing. In the kitchen, the fridge was filled with brand named chips and soda and frozen boxed food. I would never have bought those even if I could have afforded those things. In the next room were 3 adult males who were sleeping. The woman explained to me that she couldn't work and needed help and then proudly told me that she had never worked a day of her life and that she not only got food stamps, but free transport, free medical, help to pay for all utilities, a clothing stipend and a cash stipend for each kid. She had her nails done, her hair colored, highlighted and styled, nicer clothes than I had. By the time I left, I was fuming. I know there are families that really need the help, but that was the last year we donated to any organization that did that.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

My defining moment was making an aquaintence with woman at a place where we both kept a horse. For me it was a very expensive proposition and I would have never expected someone on TANF to do it but I learned she was. She had worked under the table at a breeders to get the colt and got money to keep him from doing some of that and money from relatives. She told me that this was ok because her cousin paid a lot in taxes from his wages.
And I would have never said she was a bad person but her mind set was that she was only making do with what was available. When TANF ended, she got a job and has subsequently been employed. 
I also worked at a place where people filed to get assistance after they got behind in phone bills and such. Almost all got assistance with those utilities but any savings they got there were immediately spent to upgrade. For instance, if they got $30 free phone service, they immediately used that to buy upgrades on their phones so they were always spending what they had spent before or even more. I think that is why the phone company agreed to participate in the free phone thing with the government- it didn't stop at a basic phone.
With more such surprises, I came to feel that minimizing various benefits to basic needs was the only thing that allowed survival while minimizing costs. Adding more changed nothing but making it more attractive stay on welfare- so many still struggled to get heat or food, they just did it with bigger TVs and better smart phones.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

During a famine in the land, the extended family of Joseph all went to Egypt to eat the pharaoh's bread. 

I believe it was only 73 people to begin with.

Later the Hyksos came and conquered Egypt, making slaves out of all of the original inhabitants. Then the original Egyptians were able to eventually throw off their conquerors, but they kept the system of slavery ... only it was the Hebrews who were made the slaves!

In 400 years the Hebrews went from being the guests of the government (pharaoh) and eating his bread to being forced to make bricks without straw. While it was part of God's plan that His chosen people should be slaves and not assimilated into the dominant Egyptian culture, the harshness of their slavery certainly came about as punishment for turning to the government instead of to the Lord.

I have never seen anywhere in the biblical record where God punished a person for taking (in need) of charity. But there are plenty of cases where people were punished for greed and theft.

We see in Exodus how God teaches the Hebrews to rely solely upon Him and His daily provision by leading them into a foodless desert and then giving them mana each day. The mana which would ONLY last for a single day and could not through any means be preserved (or resold).

This is why I fear to ever take a dime from the government. God's provision truly comes with no strings attached while the government has expectations on every grain of rice they give you. 

If you don't think God punishes people for taking welfare, then look at the poor black farmer from 1880. See what his great-great-grandchildren have become and let that be a lesson to you. A very pitiable lesson. The government's "charity" took a strong and hardy people who could feed themselves and turned a large number of them into a savage and dependent underclass with no means of support. If you're on welfare today, I advise you to start taking steps to get free of it as fast as possible, before your children grow up and start thinking of it as a normal way of life.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

ernie said:


> during a famine in the land, the extended family of joseph all went to egypt to eat the pharaoh's bread.
> 
> I believe it was only 73 people to begin with.
> 
> ...


amen!


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm going to spend a little more time on this since we are talking about food shortages, welfare, government, and cities.

The bible provides us many guides and models for things to watch out for. In Genesis 47 we see the beginnings of the first socialist government, under Joseph the minister of the pharaoh.

After Joseph presented his family to the pharaoh, the pharaoh gave them lands. Rich lands in which they could dwell.

*Joseph provided his father and his brothers and all his father's household with food, according to their little ones. - Genesis 47:12
*
Do you recognize the hand of the pharaoh in the modern food stamp program?
*
(14)Joseph gathered all the money that was found in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan for the grain which they bought, and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house. (15)http://biblehub.com/genesis/47-15.htmWhen the money was all spent in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came to Joseph and said, "Give us food, for why should we die in your presence? For our money is gone."&#8230; -Genesis 47:14-15*

Joseph TOOK all the money in the land and brought it to the pharaoh. This was the first nationalization of private resources. Where all of the independent wealth and assets of the people were gathered into the government's pocket. 

And in the very next verse (15) we see the result ... the people cried out that they were hungry and they couldn't buy food because they had no money. Why didn't they have money? Because the government (Joseph as the pharaoh's minister) had taken it.

*"Then bring your livestock," said Joseph. "I will sell you food in exchange for your livestock, since your money is gone." -Genesis 47:16

*And we see the next step in the government's plan here. The government wants all of the livestock in exchange to give them food. Now one might question why the people needed food if they HAD livestock, but perhaps they wanted an easier life than what the livestock could bring. Perhaps they wanted ready-made meals in grain that would be portioned out to them from the pharaoh.

*So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and he gave them food in exchange for their horses, their sheep and goats, their cattle and donkeys. And he brought them through that year with food in exchange for all their livestock.* *-Genesis* *47:17

*Awesome. Now they have food to get them through the year. And no livestock to worry with either! I guess the Egyptians can sit around now and watch their big screen televisions, drive around in their fancy chariots, and live a life of luxury. Maybe watch "Dancing with the Pharaoh" on television every night. But what about _next year?
_*
(18)When that year was ended, they came to him the next year and said to him, "We will not hide from my lord that our money is all spent, and the cattle are my lord's. There is nothing left for my lord except our bodies and our lands. (19)http://biblehub.com/genesis/47-19.htm "Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for food, and we and our land will be slaves to Pharaoh. So give us seed, that we may live and not die, and that the land may not be desolate."&#8230; -Genesis 47:18-19*

Aha! Now we see the rub. We see where that welfare state ends. I'm sure Joseph must have told some of them who wanted to hold on to their livestock, "You can't be that bad off if you can afford to keep goats." And then the next year I'm sure he said, "You can't be that bad off if you still have land."

And so it went until all were slaves.


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

ernie said:


> i'm going to spend a little more time on this since we are talking about food shortages, welfare, government, and cities.
> 
> The bible provides us many guides and models for things to watch out for. In genesis 47 we see the beginnings of the first socialist government, under joseph the minister of the pharaoh.
> 
> ...



amen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> *
> (18)When that year was ended, they came to him the next year and said to him, "We will not hide from my lord that our money is all spent, and the cattle are my lord's. There is nothing left for my lord except our bodies and our lands. (19) "Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for food, and we and our land will be slaves to Pharaoh. So give us seed, that we may live and not die, and that the land may not be desolate."â¦ -Genesis 47:18-19*
> 
> 
> ...



this was todays version of reverse mortgages for seniors.....its nothing but a wealth gathering,land grabbing,asset grabbing scam of the govt elite.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I think the whole thing was God's plan. He gave the Egyptians the ability to enslave themselves. Joseph probably had the law on his side also. Maybe there was a bit of fear if caught hanging onto their gold. Like alot of folks, the Egyptians were used to an eaisier life and probably saw an eaiser way still. Our society and what it's being sold is exactly like it. The best way to get people to part with their money, short of using a gun, is to allow them a return on its investment. Money earned without any sweat.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> I think the whole thing was God's plan. He gave the Egyptians the ability to enslave themselves. Joseph probably had the law on his side also. Maybe there was a bit of fear if caught hanging onto their gold. Like alot of folks, the Egyptians were used to an eaisier life and probably saw an eaiser way still. Our society and what it's being sold is exactly like it. The best way to get people to part with their money, short of using a gun, is to allow them a return on its investment. Money earned without any sweat.


God's plan was for us to tend the garden, but we blew that. 

The children of Abraham going into slavery in Egypt was part of God's plan for salvation.

Slavery was both a punishment, and a method to keep the Hebrews separate. Egyptian culture was powerful and big. It was dominant. It was the America of its day, establishing a cultural hegemony across all of the known world. 

If you took 73 people from a "simpler" society and dropped them into Manhattan today, what do you expect would happen to them in 400 years? Do you think you'd be able to tell their descendants from anyone else on the street?

By the time we see Moses come onto the scene, 400 years has passed and there are over 2 million Hebrews in Egypt, all slaves. There's so many of them that the pharaoh is starting to get a little nervous and he decides to wipe out an entire generation of their fighting men. He orders that the newborn males of all of the Hebrew families must be slain. That ought to cull the herd. Had the Hebrews assimilated, the pharaoh would have just thought that he had 2 million fighting Egyptians on his northern border, instead of a slave nation which might join forces with the next invader to come along.

You can't get from Abraham to Jesus WITHOUT 400 years of slavery in Egypt. God's chosen people had to remain a distinct group, and slavery was the method established for that.

Incidentally, there were a lot of people in Canaan besides the 73 members of Jacob's household who went to Egypt. They survived the famine and were never truly enslaved by Egypt.

What do we call them 400 years later? Canaanites. And we see that they were SO WICKED by that time Moses led the people out of Egypt that the land "vomited them out". They were destroyed. So while Joseph and his family certainly weren't a prize, the people who remained behind were even worse.


----------

