# The Hutterites



## City Bound

Seem like cool people.

There is a show on Nat Geo about them. It is called American Colony: The Hutterites. It is about just one colony so it may or may not be a good example of the populace. 

Anyone see this show on NAt Geo?


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## Qhorseman

We have a small colony here. I think they are having some labor disputes right now with the government. If I remember correctly it has to do with workmans insurance.


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## City Bound

I was reading a little about these groups on the net and they have a lot of money and they have a long history of having a great deal of buying power. There were laws put on the books in canada to prevent these people from buying up great deal of land when they migrated there.

The episode I first saw was when they were selling their cattle off at the end of the year. They had a massive amount of cattle they were selling. If they got about a grand for each cow they must of brought in about 150 to 200 grand. 

But on the other hand they seems to waste money. Some of the kids have video games and the families have knick knacks and junk. One family had a silver tea set. This colony seemed to have no issue with wasting gasoline.

One thing that you can see from the show is that they are right about high school. For their community, and I would think for amish communities also, highschool is a problem. The hutterite kids in this show that have gone, or are going to, highschool are at odds with the community and they are discontent. From the Hutterite perspective they feel the kids are becoming too worldly and in the show you see the kids who do go to highschool do start becoming more worldly, more like the "english", more selfish, and they start to unravel the fabric of the community.


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## wr

City Bound, perhaps colonies are different in the US but a lot of your information is very dated. There are actually two different kinds of hutterite colonies, one being more strict in their beliefs than the other and I've spent a great deal of time with both. They're fantastic neighbors, they are the first to show up and help if a family is in need or has a tragedy, the men often join volunteer fire departments and such but they work pretty hard so there isn't a lot of time to mingle within the community. Men's work is divided and they tend to specialize (grain farming, cattle, dairy, mechanics, carpenters, etc), the poultry barns are supervised by men but the younger boys work in the poultry area but the women kill & clean. Women work in the gardens and take turns cooking in community kitchens and each woman has a speficied laundry day. 

We do have laws restricting how much land they can purchase in a block but it's a substantial amount, based on keeping colonies @ 120 people but they will usually separate and start a new colony when their numbers reach 100. The pay cash, the only startup loans they take is from other colonies and in Alberta, there are no TV's or video games. The children are educated on the colonies and while education used to stop early for them, the children are fully educated and starting to go to college and university.

Every person receives month allotments of specific items as well as an allowance for personal items (which comes out of the colony budget). I was actually surprised when a friend sent me home with a huge bag of candy but he and his wife were diabetic and each month, they were still given 5 lbs of candy. 

Since time began, there have always been a certain amount of young people that do leave the colony but they are never considered outcasts and are more than welcome to come back to visit family and I know quite a few young guys who have returned to the colony after several years on their own.


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## homefire2007

I watch the show and enjoy it very much. As far as I can see, their lives are very much mapped out for them at the get-go. I can see the attraction of having a caring, hardworking community that take care of each other and work for the common good. As a woman, it would never fly for me. But I can appreciate the safety net it provides for folks. By the way, Bertha is my favorite!! There was a community of Hutterites in CT. at one time. The agency I worked for was hired to care for one of their members. She had round the clock nursing care until she passed away. There is a lot to say for a community that makes sure it's members are well cared for at end of life or when they are ill. I was impressed and have a great deal of respect for them. Having said that, I could not live my life in such a rigid way, with all the rules and regulations pertaining to women especially.


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## Fowler

I watched this show last night and thought to myself , Hey CB should move to the colony....LOL


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## Qhorseman

There are other intentional communities that do not have the strict religious backround the Amish/Mennonite/Hutterites have. Dancing Rabbit here in Missouri comes to mind.


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## City Bound

Fowler said:


> I watched this show last night and thought to myself , Hey CB should move to the colony....LOL


You are a brat.


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## City Bound

Homefire, Bertha is the best. Love her. 

It seems ridgid even to some of the kids in the show, but if they are serious about their religion then it is not ridgid at all, it is liberating.


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## City Bound

Dancing rabbit is super-liberal thought right?


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## Fowler

City Bound said:


> You are a brat.



:nana:


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## Qhorseman

City Bound said:


> Dancing rabbit is super-liberal thought right?


Not quite sure what you are asking. They are an intentional community here in MO. Very progressive and community minded. They run a non-profit vehicle co-op, are working towards energy independence. http://www.dancingrabbit.org/


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## coolrunnin

To me if you fear education destroying your community you probably need to rethink the charter of your community. How can education be something you fear? 

I don't agree with alot of things they teach in public schools today, but there are also some things that are good, and you can home school past the eighth grade.

Other than that more power to them I couldn't live in a community that rigidly controlled but can certainly understand people that seek these places, as the world can be a scary place and someone else making your decisions is appealing to many people.


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## bstuart29

Qhorseman said:


> We have a small colony here. I think they are having some labor disputes right now with the government. If I remember correctly it has to do with workmans insurance.


I didn't know we had a group here, where are they located at?


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## Tracy Rimmer

I haven't seen the show, but I live within spitting distance of about four colonies. There are a lot of them here in this part of Manitoba.

I know good and bad people on most of the colonies, and some colonies are more insular than others. One colony nearby doesn't allow their women to speak to ANYONE from "outside" and the men are very difficult -- I've had to deal with them while working at the library, and they can be very disrespectful and chauvinistic. Another nearby colony is full of wonderful young families who are very involved in local community efforts and we have several friends there. A third colony a little further away is very modern-thinking and very interactive with "outsiders" in terms of business, but not so much in terms of personal relationships.

Neighbours of ours have had problems with the younger men from the first colony -- they have to keep everything on their farm locked tight, or things "walk away". This particular colony doesn't allow their young men anything -- spending money for personal needs or entertainment of any kind, and many of them have alcohol abuse problems. Anything that isn't locked up is stolen and traded for alcohol. 

It's not a life I understand, in terms of it's insularity and "us and them" mentality, but some of the younger, break-away colonies are simply full of hard working young families whose approach to life is through communal work and lifestyle.


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## starjj

I watched one show and set to tape any others. I also like out of order the one about Amish leaving for the "English" world.

One thing I noticed is they sure do like their beer.

I also was shocked that once the community assigned you a job that was your job for the rest of your life. I think I would rather trade off on jobs. Like they had one person that was assigned to the garden and one that took care of the buying and selling of the cattle.


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## Qhorseman

The Mennonites and Amish are both seeing an exodus of their young people to the modern world.

Stuart, I don't really know where the hutterites are located. The librarian in town was telling me they had a colony here.


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## City Bound

coolrunnin said:


> To me if you fear education destroying your community you probably need to rethink the charter of your community. How can education be something you fear?
> 
> I don't agree with alot of things they teach in public schools today, but there are also some things that are good, and you can home school past the eighth grade.
> 
> Other than that more power to them I couldn't live in a community that rigidly controlled but can certainly understand people that seek these places, as the world can be a scary place and someone else making your decisions is appealing to many people.


Depends on what the education is. One man's education is another man's poison.


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## coolrunnin

I respectfully disagree education is just that, what you do with it is what makes it good or bad.


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## NW Rancher

I'm going to have to agree Cool. It's a fact that conservative people are as a group less educated, and I believe that education scares many fundamentalist and conservative groups that fear loss of numbers as their own become better educated.


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## Shrek

starjj said:


> I watched one show and set to tape any others. I also like out of order the one about Amish leaving for the "English" world.
> 
> One thing I noticed is they sure do like their beer.
> 
> I also was shocked that once the community assigned you a job that was your job for the rest of your life. I think I would rather trade off on jobs. Like they had one person that was assigned to the garden and one that took care of the buying and selling of the cattle.


If you like the programs about Amish leaving their orders to live among the "English" , I posted a link to an online movie about it on PBST. The program is R rated and exceeds HT content preferences and the link cannot be posted on this host however you might find it of interest.


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## Guest

NW Rancher said:


> I'm going to have to agree Cool.  *It's a fact that conservative people are as a group less educated*, and I believe that education scares many fundamentalist and conservative groups that fear loss of numbers as their own become better educated.


That is the stupidest thing I've read in months. And, don't forget, I have hundreds of really stupid emails telling me how no count I am.
So, do you have any real evidence that conservative people are less educated? Or is that just a stupid comment from a stupid blog? or, uh, did you just make it up??


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## thesedays

I watched the first episode of that Hutterites program, and finished it only because I wondered if it might become interesting. It didn't.

As for "Amish: Out of Order", that program 2 weeks ago where Mose admits to horrific abuse didn't surprise me, and I'll just bet this is one reason why kids want to leave. And Michaela, the teenager from an incredibly dysfunctional family who wants to JOIN the Amish, comes across to me as the kind of girl who a few decades ago would have married the first boy who ever asked her for a date, and ended up in a worse situation than the one she came from. Girls like that nowadays often get pregnant on purpose so they will have somebody to love them, and I wonder if that's even an option for her because she's never mentioned any friends.


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## NW Rancher

Zong, you can look it up, there's a million studies on it. I didn't expect it go over well here, but it's true. It wasn't intended to be an attack, just pointing out why the fundamentalist types may feel threatened by education.


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## Guest

If theres a million studies, lets see the evidence. If I had made such an outrageous claim, I would post the factual evidence to support it. Of course, being a conservative, I'm well founded in reality, not fantasy.


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## Guest

Similarly, I could say Everybody who claims:" Location: Washington's Olympic Peninsula" is a moron. And leave it up to you to prove differently. If I only had the liberal mindset that you do, to make a wide sweeping statement with no facts behind it.
Incidentally, I hope you know that you have always misspelled "Penninsula" in your signature line. I never bothered with that. But, since liberals got that superior education and all..... *it's your signature line*
Dude, you really stepped in it.


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## starjj

As for "Amish: Out of Order", that program 2 weeks ago where Mose admits to horrific abuse didn't surprise me, and I'll just bet this is one reason why kids want to leave. And Michaela, the teenager from an incredibly dysfunctional family who wants to JOIN the Amish, comes across to me as the kind of girl who a few decades ago would have married the first boy who ever asked her for a date, and ended up in a worse situation than the one she came from. Girls like that nowadays often get pregnant on purpose so they will have somebody to love them, and I wonder if that's even an option for her because she's never mentioned any friends.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the girl that wants to join is just strange but she did mention friends telling her not to. I wonder what her family thinks or if they even care? I think she has a sister also. Sometimes I find Mose to be a bit overbearing as if he is the authority on all the kids that leave the order.


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## City Bound

Qhorseman said:


> Not quite sure what you are asking. They are an intentional community here in MO. Very progressive and community minded. They run a non-profit vehicle co-op, are working towards energy independence. Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage | Building Sustainable Community


I have seen some vids of this place on you tube. They are doing some cool stuff. What I meant by liberal is that there are liberals who get into eco living solely as a political protest. Take the politics away and many of those people would not care about the earth or living in tune with it.

I am not saying Dancing Rabbit is that way. I was asking if Dancing Rabbit was one of those kinds of places.


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## NW Rancher

Oh geez, I thought it was germane to the conversation. I don't spell very well, I don't have much education. It doesn't bother me.


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## City Bound

thesedays said:


> I watched the first episode of that Hutterites program, and finished it only because I wondered if it might become interesting. It didn't.
> 
> As for "Amish: Out of Order", that program 2 weeks ago where Mose admits to horrific abuse didn't surprise me, and I'll just bet this is one reason why kids want to leave. And Michaela, the teenager from an incredibly dysfunctional family who wants to JOIN the Amish, comes across to me as the kind of girl who a few decades ago would have married the first boy who ever asked her for a date, and ended up in a worse situation than the one she came from. Girls like that nowadays often get pregnant on purpose so they will have somebody to love them, and I wonder if that's even an option for her because she's never mentioned any friends.


Well, mechaela is not a bad looking girl for her age so I am sure she can get a guy. I am not sure if she is searching for jesus but I do think she is searching for a wholesome and loving family life. I am a little shocked how she almost seems to have no clue that the Amish are a religion. She seems clueless of that fact.
She has decided to go live with Beachy Amish Forster family. Wow, the dad in the family was creepy.

Moss is a cool dude. Moss was in Amish in the city, way back on channel nine and he stock out as a decent guy in that show and stands out as a decent guy in amish out of order.


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## City Bound

I do not think Moss is overbearing, I think he is afraid. He ran away from the amish when he was young and had no place to go. I think he is still adressing that fear and trying to develope a cushion for kids who want to leave the amish so they do not have to struggle.


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## Qhorseman

City Bound said:


> I have seen some vids of this place on you tube. They are doing some cool stuff. What I meant by liberal is that there are liberals who get into eco living solely as a political protest. Take the politics away and many of those people would not care about the earth or living in tune with it.
> 
> I am not saying Dancing Rabbit is that way. I was asking if Dancing Rabbit was one of those kinds of places.


CB, my contact with this group has been minimal. I contacted them to get some info on beginning a vehicle co-op. Then decided America is not quite ready for this type of thing. I don't really get into reading into peoples ulterior motives of doing things. Many of their ideals are very solid and thats good enough for me. I do not chose my friends by political affiliation. To each their own.


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## City Bound

Very religious christians do not need education past eight grade. The bible is the only education serious christians need. You can not serve two masters. You can not serve the world and serve god. 

If a christian has a calling to serve the community and that calling requires higher education then they should go on with school. 

Seriously though, college does not make most people smart. They train you to be a parrot basicly. That was the impression i got from college. All I had to do was repeat what they say the way they wanted us to say it or write it and I got good grades. There was not much independent thought being encouraged.


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## Qhorseman

City Bound said:


> Very religious christians do not need education past eight grade. The bible is the only education serious christians need. You can not serve two masters. You can not serve the world and serve god.
> 
> If a christian has a calling to serve the community and that calling requires higher education then they should go on with school.
> 
> Seriously though, college does not make most people smart. They train you to be a parrot basicly. That was the impression i got from college. All I had to do was repeat what they say the way they wanted us to say it or write and I got good grades. There was not much independent thought being encouraged.


I am curious, did you finish college and get your degree?


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## City Bound

I was one semester away from graduating and I stopped going. Does that make a difference?


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## coolrunnin

Explain Fransiscans then and doctoral priests!


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## Qhorseman

CB, I am huge on education. I feel true Freedom comes with education. I am not talking about the 4 year degree after high school. That is just the beginning, life should be one long process of educating ones self.


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## City Bound

Being a priest with a high degree does not make you any more or less a christian. You do not have to have a great deal of education to walk in the teachings of jesus. All you need is a sincere desire to walk with jesus, to pray, and to seek your answers in the bible.

Just because someone is a priest and has a fancy robe and does silly rituals does not mean that god loves them more.

Those are my thought on christianity, but I am not really a christian.


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## City Bound

Life sure is Q. You never know where the road will take you. I am not a church going person but I believe god is working in my life and in the life all the people on the earth and that god is preparing a way for us if we will only welcome the nurturing.

My path in life changed and I did not need the degree I was going for anymore. I saw the light. Where I am going next I do not know, but I will know when I arrive.


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## LonghornGardens

LOL... I want to try those Hutterite Beans.


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## City Bound

LonghornGardens said:


> LOL... I want to try those Hutterite Beans.


haha. Let me know how they are if you try them.


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## Paumon

NW Rancher said:


> I'm going to have to agree Cool. It's a fact that conservative people are as a group less educated, and I believe that education scares many fundamentalist and conservative groups that fear loss of numbers as their own become better educated.





zong said:


> That is the stupidest thing I've read in months. And, don't forget, I have hundreds of really stupid emails telling me how no count I am.
> So, do you have any real evidence that conservative people are less educated? Or is that just a stupid comment from a stupid blog? or, uh, did you just make it up??


It's true Zong. It's not going to go over well on this board but there have been many studies on it and the general findings world wide are that liberals are more intelligent and better educated than fundamentalists and conservatives. Do a quick internet search on it yourself, there's lots of study results about it giving the reasons for it. 

Here's a comprehensive article about it from the Pew Research Center.
In Search of Ideologues in America - Pew Research Center

The graph below is an excerpt from Psychology Today.
Why Liberals Are More Intelligent Than Conservatives | Psychology Today




> .... more intelligent individuals are more likely than less intelligent individuals to espouse liberalism as a value.
> 
> Analyses of large representative samples, from both the United States and the United Kingdom, confirm this. In both countries, more intelligent children are more likely to grow up to be liberals than less intelligent children. For example, among the American sample, those who identify themselves as &#8220;very liberal&#8221; in early adulthood have a mean childhood IQ of 106.4, whereas those who identify themselves as &#8220;very conservative&#8221; in early adulthood have a mean childhood IQ of 94.8.


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## City Bound

Those studies are most likely propaganda.


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## Guest

OK, Paumon. Let's butt heads. It's OK if you get your sister to help you. As a matter of fact, you can get all the liberals you can to help you butt heads with me, The more of you guys there are, the less likely you'll be to be able to reach a consensus. On the other hand, moronic conservative that I obviously am, I'll just blurt out my stupid answers as fast as a moron can blurt. Lets rock!. I cant stay up all night, so marshal your liberal brainiac friends!! Hurry up! The drugs might wear off, which would be an unfair advantage.
BTW: when I'm involved in real life??? I always quote "Psychology today" or some other idiot rag. As long as it's stupid enough to espouse that people who think you shouldn't spend more money than you have are stupid, they're cool with me. I mean, good sense IS stupid, right?? I mean, God forbid any of us should have common sense. Right?


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## Raven12

The boys are dipping in the jello. Nice switch up from the regular.


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## Guest

Come on, liberals. Let's dance. Prove you're more intelligent. One on one. Quickly, girls.


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## Paumon

Zong, thanks but no thanks, I'm not interested in getting into any butt-head disputes tonight.


City Bound, why do you think the Pew Research Center would publish propagandist material? To what purpose?


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## tinknal

If Paumon were _really_ smart she would know that IQ has nothing to do with education.

I worked on a ranch inn MT next to a Hutterite colony. When they would come help with branding the girls would wear long skirts.............with blue jeans underneath! Them girls could wrastle a calf too!


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## Guest

Great!! Throw out a bunch of BS disparaging a whole group of people then refuse to back it up with your own superior intellect. Even after I told you you can cheat!! I suppose that it's beyond your liberal mindset to see how ridiculous you've been??


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## Guest

My Lord. Is this your co-defendant??? I rest my case.


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## City Bound

Paumon said:


> Zong, thanks but no thanks, I'm not interested in getting into any butt-head disputes tonight.
> 
> 
> City Bound, why do you think the Pew Research Center would publish propagandist material? To what purpose?


Power. Money. Possible self engrandizement.


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## Paumon




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## Guest

Come on, Paumon. I'll even tell you the names of the 2 most intelligent liberals on this subforum, If you don't know. You guys against me, and 2 of my brain dead (or actually dead) conservative buddies. Lets see if the 3 of you can be "more intelligent" than the 3 of us. I suppose you don't yet see how ridiculous your suppositions are? How you think you'll feel once the proof is out there?? That liberals are not as smart as they like to think they are?? LOL. Come on, let's go. Quickly, it's past 1:00 AM here. I can only stay awake maybe 5 more minute to defend myself from being a "less intelligent conservative"


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## Guest

intellectualism is the worst form of prejudice. Despicable. And you most certainly cannot back it up. I'm so disappointed in you.


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## Paumon

Sleep on it Zong. Good night, sweet dreams. :happy2:


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## Guest

OK, I'm tired, But I got to tell you, your pronouncements here(and your lack of inclination to back them up) have led to the point I can never give any of your posts credence again. Which is OK. I'm only one person. AND, being a conservative, and clearly less intelligent, I won't even hold your statements against other liberals. So, when Susie_liberal says "Oh, you rationally thinking conservatives are an average of 12 IQ points below us blond liberals" I won't even say "I went through this last week"

I mean, really? i could see that if it was in response to Joe Plod. But me?? My god, woman. Have you no decency?? Is there an entire group of people smarter than me?
Incidentally, I'm as average as they get, just aggressively defensive about it .
ETA: I cannot believe you actually accept that the average liberal is that much more intelligent than I am. I mean, really??? You do know that the stanford-binet IQ test results are logarithmic, right? Libs are twice as smart as I am?? woo hoo. lets see that.
BTW, Johnny Lee is also a conservative. As is Mav.


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## NewGround

I know the propaganda is that college is a place of higher learning... It is a brainwashing factory to produce obedient taxpayer units...

A degree has become a worthless instrument, just ask any MBA flipping burgers at McDonalds... Our company hired an MBA to mange one of our new properties, poor guy has no experience yet and with all his college learning he seems to have the hardest time grasping common sense...

My Dad was born in 1917, quit school in the fifth grade and self-educated himself... His career spoke for itself... Colleges (and degrees) aren't what they used to be, now it's just about cliques... After all look how Harvard's finest is handling things, LOL...


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## tinknal

The most intelligent students go to the "best" colleges, which are bastions of liberal indoctrination. It's a wonder that _any_ of them come out off the experience able to think for themselves.

Hey, how did we get _here_ starting with Hutterites????


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## coolrunnin

A church group that has to fear education for their members probably has a fundamental flaw in their belief system.

I have to agree the education you receive from most of the universities today won't prepare you for life in the work force, I myself have seen MBA's running forklifts.


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## Raven12

One of my biggest regrets is not absorbing as much information as possible on homesteading and wildlife from my grandparents. That was worth more than any college degree.


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## Qhorseman

NewGround said:


> I know the propaganda is that college is a place of higher learning... It is a brainwashing factory to produce obedient taxpayer units...
> 
> A degree has become a worthless instrument, just ask any MBA flipping burgers at McDonalds... Our company hired an MBA to mange one of our new properties, poor guy has no experience yet and with all his college learning he seems to have the hardest time grasping common sense...
> 
> My Dad was born in 1917, quit school in the fifth grade and self-educated himself... His career spoke for itself... Colleges (and degrees) aren't what they used to be, now it's just about cliques... After all look how Harvard's finest is handling things, LOL...


I disagree with you. Thats a blanket statement that is totally false in my opinion. There are kids that go on to college and just go with the flow, party all the time and just run up huge college debt. On the other hand there are just as many that go to college and learn.

I too have Grandparents that come to this country with nothing but the clothes on their back. BUT, that was a different time and place. The world has advanced. Even when I was young, a person could graduate high school, go out and get a decent paying job. In todays world all a high school diploma will get you is a job working in fast food.

IMHO, whats wrong with todays world is the liberals and the conservatives lining up on oppisite sides of the room and shouting at each other, that the otherside is what is destroying this country. When in reality it is both sides that are the blame for this countries problems.

I will step down off the soap box now


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## starjj

College is what you make it or have the will to make it. I have seen kids that come out of college and make less effort and wind up at low paying jobs. Then they moan that it was a waste. I think it all comes down to what you have the gumption to do. I am not saying college is the way for everyone to go. I do think that ANY education is better than just a high school diploma. There are a lot of X ray techs at the hospital where I work that make very good money. My mom had a college degree, my dad had to quit school in the 8th grade to help on the farm. I have a high school education and wish I would have gone to college. One sister has a college degree the other one a high school education. What I hate is people that act like just because they have a degree they are better people than you. I think we have moved beyond a thread drift here.


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## Huntinfamily

Shrek said:


> If you like the programs about Amish leaving their orders to live among the "English" , I posted a link to an online movie about it on PBST. The program is R rated and exceeds HT content preferences and the link cannot be posted on this host however you might find it of interest.


Shrek, can you PM me that link. Can't go to PBST to find it because I don't know what PBST is.


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## homefire2007

If I had the chance to do it all over again, I would have gone to college..for my own sense of accomplishment. 
But learning doesn't stop there, not by any means. If you can read, observe and continue to learn, I consider that higher education. At least I have those options 

I don't know who is really more intelligent or smarter...liberals or conservatives. I come from a state (formerly) that cattle got free vaccinations before little kids did. I don't care for either party, especially when I turn on the news and they are shouting invective at each other...mostly about how stupid the other is.

I don't think the Hutterite life would be for me but I see alot of things we could learn from them. They come together in time of sickness, tragedy or death for the long haul. No one goes hungry or can't go the doctor because they don't have the money. Pretty nifty!

The critical difference for me are options for my life's direction and those of my children. It breaks my heart when Bertha tells her son he can't go to school anymore or she will be shunned!


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## KnowOneSpecial

coolrunnin said:


> To me if you fear education destroying your community you probably need to rethink the charter of your community. How can education be something you fear?
> 
> I don't agree with alot of things they teach in public schools today, but there are also some things that are good, and you can home school past the eighth grade.
> 
> Other than that more power to them I couldn't live in a community that rigidly controlled but can certainly understand people that seek these places, as the world can be a scary place and someone else making your decisions is appealing to many people.


They don't "fear education". They fear the society the kids will have to be in in order to get that education. 

High school is a rough time. Lots of peer pressure, a desire to just fit in and testing of boundries-it's a lot for a non-Hutterite kid to adjust to. I can't imagine being a few more steps away from "The Norm".


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## starjj

Huntinfamily said:


> Shrek, can you PM me that link. Can't go to PBST to find it because I don't know what PBST is.


Sent it to this person Shrek Thanks for the link. I had already seen it before.


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## coolrunnin

KnowOneSpecial said:


> They don't "fear education". They fear the society the kids will have to be in in order to get that education.
> 
> High school is a rough time. Lots of peer pressure, a desire to just fit in and testing of boundries-it's a lot for a non-Hutterite kid to adjust to. I can't imagine being a few more steps away from "The Norm".


I think you are wrong they seem to fear what there kids may learn and leave the enclave, showing them in school on the show they seem to assimilate jist fine.

It is the elders fearing what is going to happen to their beliefs if the kids get to much education. At least thats what I got out of the program.


----------



## tinknal

I don't understand why anyone would want to send their child to a school that contradicts their beliefs inn a serious way. Would anyone suggest that a pacifist send their child to a military academy? Would you suggest that an atheist send their child to a Christian school? How about sending a Jewish kid to an Islamic school?

That is what it would be like to suggest that "simple folk" send their kids to mainstream schools.


----------



## coolrunnin

I did not see that they feared it contradicted any of there teachings, they seem pretty progressive by conservative religious standards... i.e. cell phones, cussing, drinking, etc.


----------



## coolrunnin

My point is anyone telling me or mine that okay you have learned enough time to get to work for the "colony" isn't going to fly very well.


----------



## naturelover

Paumon said:


> City Bound, why do you think the Pew Research Center would publish propagandist material? To what purpose?





City Bound said:


> Power. Money. Possible self engrandizement.


I don't think CB knows what the Pew Research Center is or what its code of ethics is.

Here CB, this is for you:

The Pew Research Center and Its Projects - Pew Research Center

Pew Research Center Code of Ethics - Pew Research Center

http://pewresearch.org/sitemap/

.


----------



## City Bound

Raven12 said:


> One of my biggest regrets is not absorbing as much information as possible on homesteading and wildlife from my grandparents. That was worth more than any college degree.


I agree. Living in the real world is a lot different then the textbook world.

With all the education channels on cable it is like sitting in a college lecture and you do not even have to leave the house.


----------



## tinknal

coolrunnin said:


> My point is anyone telling me or mine that okay you have learned enough time to get to work for the "colony" isn't going to fly very well.


No one is telling you to do anything. It would be inappropriate _in your culture_. Cultures are funny things. Everyone thinks that every other culture besides their own is wrong, and they really don't understand how a reasonable person could disagree.


----------



## City Bound

Tink, i was going to Hunter College in Manhatten. Each day I felt like they were trying to crack into my mind and fill it with their ideology. The final blow was when I took a theater class and the teacher spent the whole semester preaching about liberal politics. I barely learned anything about theater but I knew all about the teachers views on feminism, anti-capitalism, how people have a right to walk across the boarder and live in america without permission, and the icing on the cake was how she felt that calling someone's looks exotic was a violent act of racism. 

Too much.


----------



## City Bound

Well, here is an example of how you do not need to go to college to get by. The woman that is the ceo of Mc Donalds started out flipping burgers and worked her way up to the top.

Another thing that is bad about college is that people pile up the school debt, paying over 100 grand usually, then they are 100 grand in debt before they even start working, then they start working, get a morgage, then they have half a million dollars in debt, then they blop out some kids and the debt goes up higher. 

Oh, I forgot, they also get themselves into debt before they get the house and the kids because they have to have some grand wedding that costs 40 grand.

Even if someone gets a good job after school they have to work the rest of their life to dig themselves out of debt.


----------



## Raven12

City Bound said:


> I agree. Living in the real world is a lot different then the textbook world.
> 
> With all the education channels on cable it is like sitting in a college lecture and you do not even have to leave the house.


Forget cable. Look at what is available online. Half of my gardening info I get through Youtube and the other half is through websites.


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## NW Rancher

Good discussion folks, nice to see. CB, I had a similar college experience and walked for very much the same reasons. Great posts.


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## City Bound

Nature, everyone has a price. Just because an institution has a code of ethics does not mean they follow them. I am not saying that research center is currupt, but I am saying that the human soul is currupt and that humans should alway be handled with scrutiny.


----------



## City Bound

Well, hey, look at Bertha's kids, they are the worst kids in the colony and they are causing trouble and setting a bad example to the youngsters. Her daughter Rachel is trouble. That girl needs to leave the colony or get herself straight. Bertha's second son, the one in highschool, has some attitude on him, he is a real punk. 

Bertha was shunned and in a way she deserved it. She is accountable for her children and she has to raise them within the traditions of the Hutterites. BErtha is slack in her duties, but I do not blame her completely because she is still grieving after her husband's suicide.


----------



## homefire2007

City Bound said:


> Well, hey, look at Bertha's kids, they are the worst kids in the colony and they are causing trouble and setting a bad example to the youngsters. Her daughter Rachel is trouble. That girl needs to leave the colony or get herself straight. Bertha's second son, the one in highschool, has some attitude on him, he is a real punk.
> 
> Bertha was shunned and in a way she deserved it. She is accountable for her children and she has to raise them within the traditions of the Hutterites. BErtha is slack in her duties, but I do not blame her completely because she is still grieving after her husband's suicide.


Let me tell you something...parenting is a lot like being a quarterback...you get too much of the credit or too much of the blame. I've seen good parents with bad kids and vice versa. Bertha's husband died of a suicide...give the kids some slack. If I were those kids, I'd be pretty confused and rebellious too. As a single mom (widow) she's got plenty on her plate. Shocking how her son wants to play football and her daughter doesn't want to wear a scarf over her head......... Terrible examples alright


----------



## willow_girl

> I agree. Living in the real world is a lot different then the textbook world.
> 
> With all the education channels on cable it is like sitting in a college lecture and you do not even have to leave the house.


Don't think you're going to learn to be a neurosurgeon from watching cable TV programs ... :shrug:


----------



## WolfWalksSoftly

willow_girl said:


> Don't think you're going to learn to be a neurosurgeon from watching cable TV programs ... :shrug:


I leaned how to remove my staples after my first surgery on youtube, Dr. got a kick out of that. :shrug:


----------



## Qhorseman

City Bound said:


> Well, here is an example of how you do not need to go to college to get by. The woman that is the ceo of Mc Donalds started out flipping burgers and worked her way up to the top.
> 
> Another thing that is bad about college is that people pile up the school debt, paying over 100 grand usually, then they are 100 grand in debt before they even start working, then they start working, get a morgage, then they have half a million dollars in debt, then they blop out some kids and the debt goes up higher.
> 
> Oh, I forgot, they also get themselves into debt before they get the house and the kids because they have to have some grand wedding that costs 40 grand.
> 
> Even if someone gets a good job after school they have to work the rest of their life to dig themselves out of debt.


We got my youngest daughter thru 4 years with only $20,000 in loans. We will have that paid off this summer. There is all kinds of free money out there for kids if they will just persue it. Their best friend at college should be their financial counselor. We started working on grants and scholarships when she was a senior in high school. I did work my rear end off for four years keeping her tuition paid, she was in work study, she applied for every grant and scholarship she even remotely qualified for.
My eldest daughter is in med school with a free ride thru the Veterans Administration. They are paying all her expenses and tuition for medical school, then she has to give them 6 years once she becomes an MD.
The money is there, the programs are there, but like anything in life no one is going to give them to you, you have to run them down.

If you think a degree doesn't mean anything, my daughter started her first job out of college at over $50,000 a year.


----------



## NewGround

Qhorseman said:


> I disagree with you. Thats a blanket statement that is totally false in my opinion. There are kids that go on to college and just go with the flow, party all the time and just run up huge college debt. On the other hand there are just as many that go to college and learn.
> 
> I too have Grandparents that come to this country with nothing but the clothes on their back. BUT, that was a different time and place. The world has advanced. Even when I was young, a person could graduate high school, go out and get a decent paying job. In todays world all a high school diploma will get you is a job working in fast food.
> 
> IMHO, whats wrong with todays world is the liberals and the conservatives lining up on oppisite sides of the room and shouting at each other, that the otherside is what is destroying this country. When in reality it is both sides that are the blame for this countries problems.
> 
> I will step down off the soap box now


Yes sir, you are certainly entitled to your opinion... For the largest majority college is a joke... And it is scam the way the universities are increasing tuition costs at a rate far exceeding actual costs... So many grads have loans they will struggle to pay if ever... That is neither liberal or conservative...

There is a saturation point that IMHO has already been exceeded... If everyone has a college degree then who will be left to perform the actual work? I once saw a stat on lawyers (an example) and the number of new lawyers was far outstripping the available work... Extrapolated into other fields soon there will be more managers, engineers, scientists but not enough trades people to make things work...

I know that everyone with a child in college will get all defensive and to be clear for some people a degree is a good thing, but an objective review will tell you that _everyone_ can't be in the front of the boat beating the drum and no one manning the oars...


----------



## Qhorseman

NewGround said:


> Yes sir, you are certainly entitled to your opinion... For the largest majority college is a joke... And it is scam the way the universities are increasing tuition costs at a rate far exceeding actual costs... So many grads have loans they will struggle to pay if ever... That is neither liberal or conservative...
> 
> There is a saturation point that IMHO has already been exceeded... If everyone has a college degree then who will be left to perform the actual work? I once saw a stat on lawyers (an example) and the number of new lawyers was far outstripping the available work... Extrapolated into other fields soon there will be more managers, engineers, scientists but not enough trades people to make things work...
> 
> I know that everyone with a child in college will get all defensive and to be clear for some people a degree is a good thing, but an objective review will tell you that _everyone_ can't be in the front of the boat beating the drum and no one manning the oars...


Now, I agree with you  The fact is we need a blend of everyone in this country. You are entirely right, we do need tradesman to put all that fancy technology to work that the rocket scientists invented


----------



## City Bound

homefire2007 said:


> Let me tell you something...parenting is a lot like being a quarterback...you get too much of the credit or too much of the blame. I've seen good parents with bad kids and vice versa. Bertha's husband died of a suicide...give the kids some slack. If I were those kids, I'd be pretty confused and rebellious too. As a single mom (widow) she's got plenty on her plate. Shocking how her son wants to play football and her daughter doesn't want to wear a scarf over her head......... Terrible examples alright


The kids really show no signs that their behavior is because their dad killed himself. Rachel is a pretty happy and well adjusted teenager, the problem is that she is well adjusted with the mainstream world outside the colony rather then being well adjusted to life on the colony. There is nothing wrong with her behavior if she lived off the colony, but since she live on the colony her behavior is at odds with the traditions and the laws of the hutterites.

Bertha's son and nephew said the only reason they go to school is to play sports, that is it. It does not seem to me that they have an interest in education, it seems to me that they just want to go to school and play all day while the other kids their age are accepting their roles and contributions to the colony. Bertha's son goofs off at school playing basketball and football and hanging out with English girls but then he comes home and eat food, lives in a house, and uses electricty that are all provided for by the active members of the colony. Bertha's older son is a slug, he never wants to help or do his job as a ranch worker, he rather drink beer and sleep.

I hear what you are saying, but in thier tradition the parents are accountable for their kids because the parents are leaders of the household and they should be leading those kids right. That is the way they see it.


----------



## City Bound

willow_girl said:


> Don't think you're going to learn to be a neurosurgeon from watching cable TV programs ... :shrug:


Right, but how many neurosurgens are there in the world? The majority of people are common folks who do not need to have the education of a neurosurgen.

If we were all neurosurgens, the job would no longer pay well. The down side of everyone going to college is that it has degraded the value of the degree. The colleges have created more supply then demand and that has driven down the prices that middle class workers can get. We have a disposable middle class work force now and because of that there is less job security for the middle class.


----------



## City Bound

Q, that is good, but there are other routes. Some City jobs here pay close to 90 grand a year. You can pick up garbage for the city and make 75 to 90 grand a year with benifits.

I have a friend with a GED, no college, and he is making 175 grand a year working as a sand hog. He shovels dirt for $40 an hour. 

I agree with Newground, there is a saturation point and I think we reached it.

I will give you an example of one of the down sides of more supply then demand in the work force. I know someone that works for one of the biggest pharmaceutical in America working in middle management. She was telling me that the higher up gave her orders that she was to use up every new college grad and then dump them. She said they threatened these kids with threats of being fired, then they made them work all kinds of over time and they led them on with the hope of working their way up the ladder. Then after a year of working them to the bone they fired the kids and hired from the next batch of graduates.

I had a gf who worked in an insurance office and they worked her to the bone also. They told all the workers that they had to work a fixed number of unpaid over time or they would be fired. My ex was called in and chewed out for no finishing her unpaid overtime hours and then put on propation. What that company did was illegal but they do not care because they know they have the upper hand and that the workers will take the abuse just to pay the rent and to eat.


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## littlejoe

Wow! Kinda ran through this thread checking some of the postings. I don't spend time watching the tube, or even much time on the internet. Homepage is set for Fox news, listen to the radio through the day, and check this site when I get home sometimes.

A few posts were declaring liberals were better educated than conservatives... I might say possibly so, or I could say horse apples in the same breath? Didn't bother to check the links out that were offered. I put little faith in what is on the internet, and relie more on the gift of common sense, and practicalities.

I tend to be very conservative in my viewpoints. and that could mean I'm dumber than a bucket of rocks? I've had some small experience with liberal, highly educated people IRL. One or two were highly inquisitive of what was happening around them, and asking from a perspective of someone who was/had been involved in it.

Some immediately knew everything, and would tell you why tell why this was done in this way. When in reality they didn't know which end of a horse got up first! Overread, not over educated! Education is more of a practicality, it doesn't all come from a book. Books are an essential learning tool, but they're just a place to start from.

Willowgirl... I could possibly be a neurosurgeon, if I assisted a doc a couple times. THat stuff has always interested me... I'm my own vet. I've performed c-sections, reinstalled uterus's, pulled dead calves out in pieces, castrated bovines, equines, felines, and what are dogs? done equine dental work... As well as minor surgery with a sharp knife, and stitch them up. My work has sometimes been necessarily crude, but still, I didn't kill all of them.


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## shanzone2001

To me, college was a way to get out of the house and live in an apartment with roommates while Daddy paid my bills.
Those were some of the best years of my life! I learned more about living and less about academics than I probably should have....but it was fun!!!

I only went back to grad school to move up the salary schedule. Nothing I did or learned made me a better teacher. I did that by being in the classroom and learning by doing.

I would trade everything I learned from textbooks for a year living in an Amish community and learning skills that are far more important. Well, at least to me.


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## City Bound

When I was a kid I use to believe everything I read in a book simply because I did not think people would waste time printing lies and gossip. My farther use to laugh at me and say "Do not believe everything you read, they are penned by men."

books are ok but books are also products designed to make money. There is a lot of fluff in a book to bulk it up. The bigger the book the more the consumer thinks they are getting for their dollar.

I use to buy many different books to learn about music theory and every one of them confused me and seemed to be talking but not saying much. A page to communicate what a paragraph could say, a paragraph to communicate what a sentence could say, and a sentence to communicate what a word could say, and all the while the message was lost to me. Then I stumbled on a tiny little page some normal everyday person put on the net to explain basic harmony in song writing. The person made no money from the page. In two paragraphs he explained in clear to-the-point language what I was seeking to learn and he made sense and I got the message. The guy explained in two paragraphs what others failed to do with a whole book.

I just reread what I wrote. haha, i am babbling. I was drinking at a BBQ with my neighbors and I am a little buzzed. haha.


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## City Bound

you are right Shan, learning to feed and clothe yourself is priceless.


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## homefire2007

CB, you've made some good points. I still believe that kids, teenagers in particular are taking their first shakey steps into adulthood. They are going to mess up, try new things, push boundaries and try to make sense of the world. That's what I see these kids doing. Questioning authority will be number one on their list. If Bertha and her children are thrown out of the colony...what will they do? They have skills but little education. I do see your point about the kids not doing a full days work, that comes across very clearly  They are leaving it all up to Bertha. As I read this, it is obvious I watch too much TV!!!!


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## City Bound

homefire, I think that since Bertha and her family are some-what dependent on the colony that a healthy respect for the blessings that the colony brings into their lives should be cultivated from a young age and it should be remembered everyday and appreciated. You see that respect and love for the colony in many of the other members. It is give and take. 

Here is a funny dynamic to the hutterite kids going to school: English kids go to school so they can get a job, buy food, buy a house, buy a car, raise kids, pay bills, and afford to live. Being hutterite, you get all of those things without going to school. You get a job for life, you get a house, you get a car, you get three meals a day plus you have your own kitchen at home to cook in if you want, you and the colony raise your kids, and you get an allowance for pocket money. What english kids can have all that at 15? English kids have to struggle to get all those things and they usually do not get them until their 30's or 40's. Hutterites get them 15 years earlier. As long as they follow the traditions and laws the hutterites have a job for life. How many english can claim that kind of job security.

Shunning seems harsh, but there is merit in it. From watching that show Amish out of order I started to see the reasoning behind the shunning. It goes both ways. In their community, the community is everything, it is your church, your social network, your family, your insurance, your social security, your nursing home, your day care, and your school. So, when a person joins the church they are not only asking for the spiritual and material support of the community they are also standing up before the community and announcing that they are stepping up to be supportive of everyone else in the community as well. If someone gets baptised and leave the church they have turned their back on the community and they have weakened it. They have turned their back on their friends and family in need as well as rejecting the love and care of the community. They have also turned their back on god. I think for an amish community when a person leaves the church it could be almost as traumatic as a divorce would be for an English family.

For most of us if a neighbor or a church member leaves the church or the neighberhood it is not such a big deal. We have no deep ties with them. The amish community has deep ties. They take care of eachother.


----------



## wyld thang

City Bound said:


> The kids really show no signs that their behavior is because their dad killed himself. Rachel is a pretty happy and well adjusted teenager, the problem is that she is well adjusted with the mainstream world outside the colony rather then being well adjusted to life on the colony. There is nothing wrong with her behavior if she lived off the colony, but since she live on the colony her behavior is at odds with the traditions and the laws of the hutterites.
> 
> Bertha's son and nephew said the only reason they go to school is to play sports, that is it. It does not seem to me that they have an interest in education, it seems to me that they just want to go to school and play all day while the other kids their age are accepting their roles and contributions to the colony. Bertha's son goofs off at school playing basketball and football and hanging out with English girls but then he comes home and eat food, lives in a house, and uses electricty that are all provided for by the active members of the colony. Bertha's older son is a slug, he never wants to help or do his job as a ranch worker, he rather drink beer and sleep.
> 
> I hear what you are saying, but in thier tradition the parents are accountable for their kids because the parents are leaders of the household and they should be leading those kids right. That is the way they see it.


I haven't watched the show. But, as a widow of a man who blew his brains out and watching what my two sons are doing to cope while they call me a whore(sorry dude, this week I really comprehended for the first time the magnitude of damage and lies and sheer poop I'm have to crawl out from underneath--all shoveled on me by a self righteous control freak who thought he was keeping the family "pure" per the name of God because a woman can't just leave a man because he was abusive...there has GOT to be sin in her life that made her be a bad girl and leave)...

W

T

F

So Hutterites live the American Dream, just better and more and faster. All you gotta do is bow to the man and not rock the boat, lest you be shunned. No thanks. 

Go look up the phrase "beyond the pale". I've had enough of freaking "decency". To be honest I've found more Jesus beyond the pale than inside the fence. Where the Golden Rule has free rein and jerks simply suffer the consequences of their bad design plan. 

Yes I'm mad. But people are human beings with hearts and uniqueness. This shunning garbage, in whatever group uses it for control, only destroys--both the shunned and the shunners. Phariseeism at its finest. What did Jesus do, he stood up and told the Pharisees they were donkey holes and turned around and communed with the tax collectors and hos, the "rough" people beyond the pale. Shunning is simply a control tactic for insecure people who are terrified they will burn in hell, who want a comfortable life. 

All the Universe/God/Goddess (UGG) asks us to do is be love and act compassionately. That covers everything, it's as simple as that. Judging kids because they dont' seem to be acting the way you think they should be acting/hurting/feeling after losing their dad--good grief, anyone who has ever suffered knows better to simply come along side and NOT judge. 

Why the heck do you think that kid might be drinking and sleeping? He's in hell right now and all he gets is "you're a loser per group rules".

RUN BERTHA RUN! You don't have to ho to get your room and board.

(sorry to rant, but)


----------



## cindilu

wyld thang said:


> I haven't watched the show. But, as a widow of a man who blew his brains out and watching what my two sons are doing to cope while they call me a whore(sorry dude, this week I really comprehended for the first time the magnitude of damage and lies and sheer poop I'm have to crawl out from underneath--all shoveled on me by a self righteous control freak who thought he was keeping the family "pure" per the name of God because a woman can't just leave a man because he was abusive...there has GOT to be sin in her life that made her be a bad girl and leave)...
> 
> W
> 
> T
> 
> F
> 
> So Hutterites live the American Dream, just better and more and faster. All you gotta do is bow to the man and not rock the boat, lest you be shunned. No thanks.
> 
> Go look up the phrase "beyond the pale". I've had enough of freaking "decency". To be honest I've found more Jesus beyond the pale than inside the fence. Where the Golden Rule has free rein and jerks simply suffer the consequences of their bad design plan.
> 
> Yes I'm mad. But people are human beings with hearts and uniqueness. This shunning garbage, in whatever group uses it for control, only destroys--both the shunned and the shunners. Phariseeism at its finest. What did Jesus do, he stood up and told the Pharisees they were donkey holes and turned around and communed with the tax collectors and hos, the "rough" people beyond the pale. Shunning is simply a control tactic for insecure people who are terrified they will burn in hell, who want a comfortable life.
> 
> All the Universe/God/Goddess (UGG) asks us to do is be love and act compassionately. That covers everything, it's as simple as that. Judging kids because they dont' seem to be acting the way you think they should be acting/hurting/feeling after losing their dad--good grief, anyone who has ever suffered knows better to simply come along side and NOT judge.
> 
> Why the heck do you think that kid might be drinking and sleeping? He's in hell right now and all he gets is "you're a loser per group rules".
> 
> RUN BERTHA RUN! You don't have to ho to get your room and board.
> 
> (sorry to rant, but)


THis should get post of the month...


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## wyld thang

ps, I guess Jesus "shunned" the Pharisees...but he continued to engage them and speak the truth. He did not use nice words, but in the case of people so blinded by their own pride and self worship, speaking the truth--telling them the emporer has no clothes--is the compassionate thing to do.


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## homefire2007

Wyld Thang...you go girl!!! You boiled it down pretty well. Yup...Jesus ate with the sinners, too.


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## NewGround

Who's Bertha?

I don't watch much television anymore... Got rid of satellite and now only free broadcast television and mostly it's on a country music network, in essence a radio while I work around the house...

As for Jesus eating with the sinners that is true, He was continuing to try to reach out to them for their souls were not yet totally sealed from the light...

Oh well, it's back to the salt mines...


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## coolrunnin

Wyld Thang.... you spoke my thoughts exactly.


----------



## starjj

All episodes are on HULU BTW for those that don't have access to them on TV

Oppps looks like they are not full one just snips of them


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## wyld thang

Paumon said:


> The graph below is an excerpt from Psychology Today.
> Why Liberals Are More Intelligent Than Conservatives | Psychology Today


so where do anarchists fall on the chart? :icecream:


----------



## sherry in Maine

being a liberal doesn't make you smarter.

Give me a break!

The ones I know are very nice, and many have college degrees. That doesn't make them 'smarter' or 'more intelligent' or 'understanding of reality' any more than any other human being.
Matter of fact, they mostly struck me as too lazy to think . . .


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## City Bound

Wyld that was interesting but it really does not fit in with the example of this hutterite show. Bertha's kids are not sitting around depressed, they are having fun, playing sports, playing video games, laughing, partying, drinking beer. 

When bertha's daughter rachel is hiding from her chores with the other women she is not sitting in a closet crying over losing her dad, she is texting a boy and trying to figure out how to sneak out and meet him. Rachel's older son is not sitting around emotionally upset over losing his dad, he is taking naps, drinking beer, and eating. When the Ranch boss comes to fetch him bertha's son gives him attitude, or he comes to work hung over and making trouble for the other workers.

The hutterites in this show are very laid back they are not strict. For the most part life on their colony is easygoing.


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## homefire2007

My sons lost their father to a stroke when they were 11 and 4 respectively. They were not crying all the time. They played videos..does that mean they were not grief stricken? It's taken years to process this for all of us. Just wow... I don't even have words.


----------



## wyld thang

homefire, I am so sorry, I hope you all are in a better place.

CB--I know this conversation is "just" about a tv show, that isn't even anything near reality(because its on tv). BUt, maybe things we say about people we have absolutely no connection with (liberals, conservatives, black, white, blue) are even more revealing of our true inner character. There is no consequenc or accountability with no connection. Saying one would be more loving to those one is communed with becomes hollow, everything becomes a business transaction. And that business and setting boundaries of who is in and who is out is what causes the suffering in this world. 

And just so you know, it's often those who appear to be "irresponsible partiers/gamers/chore evaders' who carry the deepest suffering. 

The world and the people in it is an amazing place, in any corner of it, if you let go of the judging.


----------



## City Bound

homefire2007 said:


> My sons lost their father to a stroke when they were 11 and 4 respectively. They were not crying all the time. They played videos..does that mean they were not grief stricken? It's taken years to process this for all of us. Just wow... I don't even have words.


The point that I believe another person was trying to make was that Bertha's kids were being bad because of grief. I disagreed with that idea. I was not addressing you or your kids.


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## City Bound

wyld thang said:


> And just so you know, it's often those who appear to be "irresponsible partiers/gamers/chore evaders' who carry the deepest suffering.


That is your opinion.


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## wyld thang

Give this a whirl. My 15 year old sister sent this to me. She's an atheist. Out of the mouths of babes. 

[YOUTUBE]1IAhDGYlpqY[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## homefire2007

City Bound said:


> The point that I believe another person was trying to make was that Bertha's kids were being bad because of grief. I disagreed with that idea. I was not addressing you or your kids.


CB, I didn't think you were addressing me or my kids. You don't even know me. I was saying you don't have to be crying or not living life to be upset over a parents death. That really chapped my hide. I don't mind a good debate...but from someone who has lived thru something similar with their kids...I may know a little something about it. The death of a parent is not an easy thing, sometimes kids act out. I am sure glad I didn't shun my kids over it. Life is rarely neat nor can it be cataloged that easily. Just my opinion of course!


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## City Bound

homefire, nether you nor I can assume that our speculations as to why bertha's kids misbehave are true or false. 

The things Bertha's kids do are things that all teenagers do. Part of the reason that I feel her kids act the way they do is because they go to high school and learned many bad habits from the english teenagers.


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## WolfWalksSoftly

Is Bertha's last name Butt and does she have any sisters ?


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## foxfiredidit

CB, what you can assume to the point where you see the cows coming home, is that people grieve in different ways, and that adolescents grieve in far more complex ways than do an adult. Having a simplistic view of a complex issue may make it easier for you to park it where you understand it as best you can, but folks who know, people who have seen grief, experienced what it does to young people lend a heavy dose of credance to the opinion they hold. 

What is so important about the hutterites society is beyond me. The fact that they don't baptise their babies being what led to their persecution is nowadays pretty moot. What probably leads to any present day persecution is living in am archaic, male led, chauvinistic, self serving attempt to avoid taxation and service to the country which serves as their host.


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## coolrunnin

City Bound said:


> homefire, nether you nor I can assume that our speculations as to why bertha's kids misbehave are true or false.
> 
> The things Bertha's kids do are things that all teenagers do. Part of the reason that I feel her kids act the way they do is because they go to high school and learned many bad habits from the english teenagers.


You really need to get out more the school my youngest was in was more conservative than I am. Teenagers act out always have always will. Plus I wonder how much is to increase the "reality" of the show.


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## City Bound

yes, some teenager act out. It would be no big deal if bertha's kids acted out if they lived outside the colony. Outside the colony the family can do what they want in respect to law, but on the colony they have to follow the laws and traditions of the colony. People can not be part of a group and then make up their own rules.

I use to be catholic. I was raised catholic. I had to follow the rules all the time. I did not agree with their religion and their church anymore, so I left. If I remained catholic then I would have to follow the rules or otherwise I would really not be a catholic. it is the same thing with the amish, the hutterites, or if you were an orthodox jew ether you follow the rules or you don't, if you don't then you have to go. That is how I feel about those things. There is no middle ground. Those are my feelings, if you disagree fine, that is ok.


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## coolrunnin

So you are saying kids who have no choice yet should follow rules "outside of family rules" should follow them just because?

And the young people are leaving these religions in droves, denying individual thought or even suppressing it without explanation isn't exactly going to swell the ranks of the faithful.


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## City Bound

Leaving what religions? Every religions is different and has a different society to it. 

Some sects are more dogmatic and strict then other, some are not. I am sure that in your family just like most of our families we did not have much choice in how we were raised, what was demanded of us, and what the rules were. Children raised in religious families can leave the religion when they get older. 

I am saying that if kids grow up in very religious families or in a religious commune like the hutterites then they have to follow the rules even if they do not want to. All kids have to follow rules they do not want to follow, then when they are of legal age they can make their own way in the world and ether keep the life their parents gave them or strike out and make a different life. But, until they are free they have to follow the rules.

I left the catholic church and I got a cold shoulder from some family because of it. I do not care though, I am just happy to be free from that religion. Other people growing up in religious families can make the same choice.


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## coolrunnin

At this point I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Fowler

Works for me...eep:


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## FarmboyBill

Well JJ Which would u want your DD to join. This or a biker gang??


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## littlejoe

Wyld... I liked the video! It's religous, just the same. Maybe not what some recognize though?

To many people, teens/and adults look for reasons to blame their shortcomings/ laziness on. We are each responsible for our decisions! There is nothing that has happened that justifies bad decisions, we make them of our own free will. Yeah, some of it has been handed down from the sins of fathers? You get my drift? They know the differance, but justify it in their own mind!


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