# the issue of tying



## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

My friend told me that she really needs to start tying her horse. He is a bit of a butthead. She said he pulls back and breaks halters.So she uses the clinton tie ring and the horse knows to just pull. I said why not get a nylon rope halter and a stout tree? It's what I do. She acted appalled. Said that was dangerous and the horse could get hurt. I said if you are worried get a inner tube and it has some give. She still said the horse could get hurt and it is far too dangerous.
I know her and I don't really see eye to eye on horse stuff. What am I missing here?
I know it has worked for me in the past. 
Also does anyone know how to set up a neck rope. years ago I had a bad puller and my farrier set me up with one. it was a cotton rope with a round ring. It solved the problem but I can't remember how it goes.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I saw the movie "Buck" recently and some lady on there was apparantly of the opinion that it was somehow cruel to tie with an inner tube. She seemed to think that it was supposed to yank the horse back into the post and cause him to bash his head. :stars: I've never heard of an inner tube being used abusively. In fact, I've only heard of them being used to AVOID injury. The inner tube prevents the horse from being able to exert a solid, sharp pull that could injure his neck. The inner tube has give and the horse should not be able to max it out and hit a "hard stop".

I'll see if I can find the photo of how I set up my draft neck ropes.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Here's the neck rope that I build.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Detail of construction, assembly, rope diameter. The size of the two smaller rings in relation to the rope diameter is important. You don't want the rope to be able to slide freely through the two smaller rings. You want it to be about as snug as you can manage.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Neck rope in use. I thread it through the halter so the horse can't get as much leverage on the neck rope. This set of photos was part of a highline instructional series, hence the high line and the knot eliminator.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I'd appreciate that photo jennigrey
I also think of the inner tube as a means to prevent injury. it has worked for me in the past,And in all honesty I would just try tying the horse up to a tree if he was mine. If he thinks he can break a halter I'd put on 2. Of course if he looks like he is totally gonna break his neck I would be around to release him and then try a inner tube or neck rope. I don't think of myself as cruel. I just think horses need to be trained to tie. My babies years ago learned this at like a month old....


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

the design is a little different then what he did..he somehow just threaded 1 ring on the rope. But the principle is the same and i am going to make a few. thanks so much


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Around here the mexicans just throw a stout rope over a large limb about 5-10 feet above the horse's head, and tie it to the tree. Then the hook the horse up and stand back. When the horse pulls back it lifts his front feet off the ground..... they say that they only try it twice.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I was always told there was a 'slight' chance of a horse injuring his neck with a neck rope, a slight chance that a sharp jerk or sideways pull could somehow damage the vertebrae at the poll. What an old cowboy taught me years ago was to use a 'body rope' if you had a really 'bad' bronc or a confirmed puller. I've also been told about the inner tube use but never tried it.

You need a long, soft cotton rope. The rope goes around the barrel of the horse, behind the withers, and tie it off snug enough so it won't slip forward. Run the free end between the front legs, through a strap at the throatlatch, down through the halter ring or under the noseband and tie to the tree or the hitching post. 

When I was working with really rank, unbroke horses, I also used to use duct tape to fasten a ring at the base of the neck and ran the rope through that as well so there was no chance a rearing/striking horse could get a foot through it. 

The halter rope is tied so that puts slight pressure on the halter when the horse pulls back, but a heavier pull brings the body rope up tight. The body rope tightening will encourage the horse to move forward ... horses are more likely to fight their head with pressure from a halter than they are to fight the pressure from a body rope. 

It's a bit the same theory as using a butt rope to move a horse forward into a trailer or teach a foal to lead. They learn to move away from body/rump pressure quicker and more naturally while the tendency is to fight head pressure.

I've used this method on horses all my life and never had one injured other than the occasional skinned place. 

ETA: The worst horse I ever had to tie was a big draft mare that had discover she could break just about anything if she really put her body weight into it. I used two heavy nylon rope halters with tie-in cotton leadropes (no snaps after she broke one and a piece of it zinged past my head!). Tied both ropes to a BIG tree and watched. She would back up until things were tight and then test it. When nothing 'gave' she finally ended up sitting on the ground pushing backwards with her front feet and grunting like a hog with the effort. A ton of horse pulling like that made everything creak and groan but it didn't give. Very impressive!

She did get so you could tie her, but you did have to tie her with a good halter and rope and a stout post because she would test things a little every time.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

lamoncha lover said:


> I know her and I don't really see eye to eye on horse stuff. What am I missing here?


Nothing. Your friend is a menace. She will ruin horses and if she keeps at it long enough she will get someone seriously injured or killed.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I use the neck rope on one of my mini donkeys. The ring keeps the rope from choking the animal. It works real well with an animal that wants to pull back. I've only used a body rope on sheep when I need to move them where they don't want to go, like my car. Works like a harness.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I don't know that your friend should try to cure her horse by herself. It sounds like she doesn't have sufficient knowledge of the methods involved, nor of horse psychology, to get the job done and as safely as possible. A confirmed puller must be handled delicately since they can certainly injure themselves having a conniption. Having additional unsuccessful attempts at curing the horse will only make the problem worse. If any training-to-tie is to be done on that animal, it must be done in such a way that the horse can NOT have another victory. If it were me, I'd go straight for SFM's combination body rope/halter rope method.

Shire-breeder friend of mine has an "Edumacation Pole" - half a telephone pole sunk 8' in the ground in the middle of a paddock.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm reenforcing what SFM is saying. We use the chest rope with 100% success and no injuries. The only difference that we use is that we tie a boline knot around the chest. Those neck ropes can and do injure animals. It also can be used when you have a pack animal that wants to pull back. Tie them to the hitch rail for a few days. They will get a little tender on the wither and know right where the end of that rope is. Its good if you have to teach an older horse to lead and tie that hasn't been messed with in his early life.
When the opportunity arises we try to start our colts under a pack saddle with salt blocks in the panniers. When they are going through the trees they have a tendency to cut the corners, The salt blocks push on their sides and the chest rope pulls them forward. They learn real quick to keep their mind on the business at hand. The by-product is when you get on their back they won't rub your legs on the trees as you ride by.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

We do it similarly to SFM, though we have always called it a "belly rope" going around the girth behind the shoulders. I found it in one of the Western Horseman magazines. I use a soft cotton rope with a big ring on young horses, but I will use a lariat with the ring on a big, mature horse who may display "attitude". The lariat bites harder.

Before EVER tying the horse, we spend several sessions of learning to MOVE FORWARD when the belly rope is tightened with a pull. I stand beside horse who is wearing his halter with a lead rope, belly rope, and cluck to go. I pull the belly rope at same time I cluck or say "walk ON" to get horse moving forward. He LEARNS that tight rope means GO FORWARD and tight goes away!! If you want to get technical, the term for forward is called "release of pressure".

We do a session or two daily, get him LIGHT on the belly rope touch, ALWAYS going forward when belly rope is tightened. His forward removes the tight feeling. I want to be able to finally give a small pull on the belly rope, no other command, have him going forward ON HIS OWN, to show he understands how to remove the pull. At that point, he is ready to be tied.

You can use the high tree limb, a good solid post, anyplace that rope can be solidly anchored above his withers height. You need to KNOW he can't break the post or anchor object if he decides to "get western" on you. I use a neckrope as well as the belly rope run thru the halter chinstrap of a GOOD nylon halter with solid hardward. No leather halters, too easily broken. Neckrope is run thru the halter chin ring, to make sure horse stays facing the post tied to. 

I tie the belly rope shorter than the neck rope, so horse feels the belly rope first. He has a little rope allowance, to move with, but not much. Especially true with an adult or poorly trained big horse. Be sure to tie with quick-release knots, with the Highwayman's Hitch being very easy to release. Have a knife in your pocket that will cut the ropes if needed. I take a chair and a book, so I can babysit him while he learns how to manage being tied. I probably will give him about 45-60 minutes the first session, and expect him to be fairly quiet so I can undo him at that point for his "reward". If he is still fighting, he may be there a bit longer, until he is quiet for long enough to untie quickly. I am not a big fan of "leave him there until he learns". He NEEDS to learn that being quiet gets him released!! You can add on time later, to extend his tied time of learning.

Very young horses, yearling on up to about 3yrs, I tie in the box stall after doing those lessons about release of pressure, having him demonstrate he understands moving forward when rope tightens. Those young horses are tied high, also with long enough belly rope length that when rope tightens firmly their rump hits the wall. When standing correctly, loose rope, they don't hit the stall wall. I DO NOT want a dumb young horse falling down on the belly rope. I do use a BICYCLE innertube on the belly rope of these young horses, because they CAN STRETCH it. Car tire tubes are HARD to stretch, you will hurt a horse before heavy tube stretches enough to mention. I WANT the stretch, so NEW bicycle tubes work best with no chance of breaking, even with a mature size horse tied to it. I fold the bike tubes in half so they are not too long, so there are 4 pieces of rubber from post to belly rope knot tying horse or young animal. I have had very good luck with this on the young horses, no problems in the training or learning bad things during the process.

With both the young and older animals, you plan on plenty of tying sessions after the first lesson, to make sure they have "release of pressure" processed into their little heads. I want them standing well, quietly observing things happening around them, but not reacting poorly, before I will remove the horse to another tie location and see if they can behave there also. They probably will be at about the 4hour mark of being tied, before that change happens. I offer a bucket of water about every hour of tied time. They are ALWAYS under supervision, in case of a problem happening, needing to be rescued.

When horse demonstrates good behaviour in various tie locations around the farm, we graduate to a neck rope, tie to the trailer and back again to all the other places. My neckropes are heavy 3/4" cotton. I tie a WELDED steel ring into the rope, make the length fit this horse, to be "his" neckrope. I have some great brass snaps that will do a quick release if needed, that I use on the ends of the neck rope to the ring. My rings are not really adjustable on the rope as the other photo shows above. I would just be leery of some bizarre thing making the rope tighten and choke the horse if ring is not tied, hard and fast. I have seen some REALLY weird freak accidents, so I try not to ask for extra trouble.

On all the horses except one, the belly rope has been a wonderful tool for training to tie. The exception horse had broken 3 ropes and halters (small rope, cheap snap, NEW leather halter) in ONE DAY, and would ALWAYS try a tie set up. Did this as a yearling, kept testing until about age 34 when it wasn't worth the effort. She just never forgot things you wished she would! My SPECIAL horse!!

All the other horses trained with the belly rope method, seldom even tighten their neck rope. Most of our horses are kept in tie stalls when barned, stand for hours with no issues. My horses MUST stand tied where I leave them, we go many places and there would be big problems if they got loose. I do not think the "little give" of blocker rings works in many situations, nor letting horse have a breakable halter or tie rope. Just confirms that if horse works HARD ENOUGH he WILL get loose, just don't give up!

I think neck ropes or the cow collars are a safer method of tying, since they move the pull pressure further back onto more muscular portions of the neck. Halter alone, lays over the skull and spine connection, no meat or muscle layers to protect sensitive vertabrae and nerves. I KNOW horses who have been damaged with just being tied by a halter and "let to fight it out". Some had wry necks, couldn't ever get straight, others got Wobblers from nerve or spinal cord damage, so they were unsafe to use. Foals who went over backwards when tied, injured badly. Lot of those horses were just put down, beyond even being a pasture pet.

I want to TRAIN the horse to make good choices, not hurt himself. We don't do any tying of foals, they are always held by a person who can move with them. Too easy to hurt those soft bones. 

Most horses have enough problems in life dealing with ignorant folks, so you want to get the BEST BASICS on them possible. To us this starts with being able to be tied easily and reliably.


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## Cashs Cowgirl (Jan 26, 2006)

jennigrey said:


> Shire-breeder friend of mine has an "Edumacation Pole" - half a telephone pole sunk 8' in the ground in the middle of a paddock.


This for us. I have a puller. Come to find out his mother was a puller too. He quite adept at it and has broken three halters and three leads. He is only tied with a rope halter and bull snap now. Never to anything that could be broken. SOmetimes he just decides that he is done with standing and off he tries to go. Looks like a thrashing bronc when he was younger. Rope burns himself every time he tries it. The last time he pulled that stunt standing tied was a year ago on the tree. Recently he pulled a royal hissy getting into the trailer, but I was inside holding the rope, attached to his rope halter, wrapped around a metal pole and the only give he was going to get was his own self coming forward. He decided eventually to get in on his own and then repeated the load and unload sequence a few more times for good measure...he has been taught to stand...sometimes does it for and hour or more with no incident...falls asleep even, but some times. That boy...

I am not familiar with the design of the body rope and would love to see it. I think this may work for my boy should the need arise...he's pretty sporadic about it now, but one can never tell with him.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't quite understand why the neck rope is needed and why a horse wouldn't tie. I just figured that tying a young horse was one of the first lessons it received. If I'm busy doing something with one horse and I don't want to mess with the other I've left a horse tied for a half hour or more, sometimes within eyeshot and sometimes not.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Joshie said:


> I don't quite understand why the neck rope is needed and why a horse wouldn't tie. I just figured that tying a young horse was one of the first lessons it received.




Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. I started out my 'career' in horses breaking western colts that had never had a halter on them as 2 year olds. I have also known a number of older horses that pulled back for some reason, broke a rope and got loose, and figured out that was the thing to try the next time they didn't want to stand tied. Some horses just simply get to be confirmed pullers, just once or twice of getting away is all it takes.

Personally, I don't tie youngsters 'hard and fast'. They panic easier when they are young and they are more likely to hurt themselves as well. I usually start the hard and fast tie lessons as yearlings.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

tinknal said:


> Nothing. Your friend is a menace. She will ruin horses and if she keeps at it long enough she will get someone seriously injured or killed.


based strictly on the fact she isn't comfortable tying a horse without a release? I hope I've missed posts about this friend ...

wow - harsh and uncalled for .. I agree with the suggestions everyone has made and have used body lines much as SFM describes but had I ever tied a horse without a release as a youth at my main barn that would have been the end of me working there ... and using release snaps and safety knots worked fine for them ... 

different people do things differently - personally I would not tie a horse on crossties on concrete without some kind of release or safety knot

I am pretty sure I'm not a menace, nor have I ruined any horses.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

brody said:


> ... but had I ever tied a horse without a release as a youth at my main barn that would have been the end of me working there ... and using release snaps and safety knots worked fine for them ...
> 
> different people do things differently - personally I would not tie a horse on crossties on concrete without some kind of release or safety knot


One reason I am not a good instructor for a novice horse owner. Too many things I do are so automatic, having been learned at a very early age, I simply do not think to mention.

Example: safety/release knots on ropes.

Yes, I do use a jerk-quick release knot on the tie rope, whatever it is. however, also be aware that if a horse really sets back on one of the big soft cotton lead ropes, it can pull down so tight it will NOT release. One of the things I always carry in my pocket is a good pocket knife with a good sized very sharp blade so I can cut through a rope if necessary with one quick swipe of the knife.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

phew SFM - I thought long and hard about posting in this thread ... I've had that happen too and been glad to have my pocket knife handy


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

brody said:


> phew SFM - I thought long and hard about posting in this thread ... I've had that happen too and been glad to have my pocket knife handy


Yep, I always tie with a slip knot and always have a knife. It seems to me that the horse belonging to the OPs friend has learned that if it pitches a big enough fit that it will be released. 

In other words she has created a monster.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

maybe he arrived a pig about being tied? Maybe he had an accident that makes him kooky?

I really don't know enough about her situtation to sit in judgement  however caving to nonsense is not the right answer no matter the species - I'm with you there


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> One reason I am not a good instructor for a novice horse owner. Too many things I do are so automatic, having been learned at a very early age, I simply do not think to mention.
> 
> Example: safety/release knots on ropes.
> 
> Yes, I do use a jerk-quick release knot on the tie rope, whatever it is. however, also be aware that if a horse really sets back on one of the big soft cotton lead ropes, *it can pull down so tight it will NOT release.* One of the things I always carry in my pocket is a good pocket knife with a good sized very sharp blade so I can cut through a rope if necessary with one quick swipe of the knife.


I have come across this, not in a good way but nothing tragic. It's supposed to release but it doesn't. it's pulled too tight. Thank you for reminding me to carry what ever it is I need to get me out of that situation!


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I always have a knife and a safety tie. usually even the worst puller will figure it out before hurting self. I have never had one that didn't. When I had to use the neck rope..thehorse never even attempted to pull.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

I think "bad" tiers really need to go back to something abit more basic..and then they can generally become "good" tiers.

some horses need to go back and learn to instead of FIGHT pressure, they need to YIELD to pressure. This goes along the same lines as hobble training. a horse needs to learn to relax and give to pressure..and this also goes into under saddle work too.

I dont use nylon halters..I use rope halters with the leads tied on..no hardware to break. Id go back and start working on getting this horse to "give" to pressure on the halter on the ground, not tied.

Once the horse is yielding well, Ill start tieing him. We have a solid sided steel roundpen with a tiering specificaly created for this purpose. I will tie the horse and "stay busy"..meaning I wont hang out with him..but I am close enough to monitor him. He may pull back a time or two..kinda half hearted attempts, but generally he calms down.

I also usually introduce hobbles too, if he doesnt already know about them. With some horses, hobbling provides an introduction to imobilization that doesnt involve the halter.

I personally have no issues tieing a horse for 3 -4 hours..provided the weather allows it. Tying teaches patience.

I cant comment on the neck or belly rope, Ive never used them, as the method above seems to have worked for every horse we've had.

I personally never have used the blocker ring either..


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

The potential for neck injury is greatly reduced by taking away a horse's leverage when he does pull. Based on a horse's conformation and center of balance, the higher you tie the rope, the less "pull" force he has and therefore the less force on his poll and neck.

If you tie a horse at wither-height or below (such as to traditional-height hitching posts), they can produce an incredible amount of direct-leverage by sitting with their hind end and using their own strength to pull. HOWEVER, if you tie at eye-ball height, they can't use much of their strength to pull; their hind legs just slip instead of help; so it is only their own body weight providing pull and not body weight + strength. Does that make sense?

After Tony broke 3 halters and 4 lead ropes and completely taught himself that that was how to get out of being handled, I made a rope halter of out yacht rope and tied him short (14") to a 100 yr old oak at his eye-ball level. I walked about 30 yards away and just sat there.

Because the rope was short, he couldn't get a big, sweeping PULL with his head and neck, and because that tree was so massive, he couldn't get himself any momentum side-ways, either, and because he was tied at eye-ball level, when he did pull with all of his might, his spine was in alignmnent: poll to withers to hip in a straight line. Yes, he sat right down and pulled until his eyes bugged out, but straight-line traction is not dangerous. He stopped when he was sore and tired. I have no problem with "sore". I get sore muscles myself; my back aches from over-use sometimes. "sore" is fine with me if it means Tony will never, ever, ever hurt himself or me if I have no choice but to tie him to something not-quite-so-safe any time in the future.....


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## Cashs Cowgirl (Jan 26, 2006)

This is what we've been doing Jill, but it hasn't set in...He still fights sometimes. I am at a loss. On the ground, he gives to pressure..unless he's asked to do something he doesn't want to do...then it's a huge tantrum.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Well, I'm going to agree with the so-called "menace" friend of the OP.

A horse who pulls almost certainly has many, many holes in it's basic training. The most obvious one is, as spinandslide said, YIELDING to pressure. By immediately going to bigger and stronger ropes, bigger and stronger halters, and bigger and stronger trees/posts you are setting the horse up for failure and probably injury. You aren't giving the horse any baby steps, training, or any chances to make the right decision - i.e. GIVE TO PRESSURE. I've done the bigger, stronger, rope/tree/neck rope/body rope thing and it sometimes works, sometimes not. Teaching a horse to yield to pressure will stay with him his entire life and works for thousands of applications/scenarios - not just standing tied.

All of my foals are taught to lead as soon as I can start working with them - sometimes it's at only a few days old, sometimes it's a few months old. They are led around the farm with and without mom. I don't actually tie them until they are about a year old, but by that time they've had plenty of experience with leading and usually are perfectly fine the first time they are tied. They know to yield to pressure and even though being tied is a brand new thing, they yield to it and are "trained" to tie for the rest of their lives.

The best way to teach a horse something is to break it down into baby steps, and in my opinion, using a large tree/post and strong halter/rope is a giant leap of training for the horse who has learned to pull.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cashs Cowgirl said:


> This is what we've been doing Jill, but it hasn't set in...*He still fights sometimes*. I am at a loss. On the ground, he gives to pressure..unless he's asked to do something he doesn't want to do...then it's a huge tantrum.


Some horses that have learned to pull will always be inclined to 'try it' occasionally, just to see if you've somehow forgotten and the leadrope has a weak spot or you've tied to something that will break.

It is like anything else a horse learns ... good or bad ... they don't forget it. You can turn an experienced cowhorse out to pasture for two years and when you get him up, saddle him and put him behind a cow, he knows what to do. Same thing happens with a horse that has learned that he can break something and get away if he doesn't want to stand tied. Even though you've worked and worked at convincing him the rope halter, heavy lead rope and tree will NOT move, it is possible he will continue to try it occasionally the rest of his life.


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## Cashs Cowgirl (Jan 26, 2006)

Yeah therein lies my issue. Didn't realize that his mother was a puller as well, in her younger years, when I started his training (I got him as a yearling so I've had him for some time). He was giving to pressure nicely when younger and then one day when tied, something spooked him and the rodeo started until he busted the halter and lead. I'd never seen one go like that...I didn't have a rope halter that fit him yet and so the next time I used two halter and two lead ropes since I thought it was a fluke thing. They were broken too because a bucket with chains in my shed fell over, making a rattling noise (which he'd already been exposed without incident to a number of times before) and this was right before the rope halter came in. Now it's rope halters and tied leads to it. Haven't had a break since, but he occasionally tries and recently it's been two large issues in two weeks. Though before he hadn't done it in almost a year. I think that stubborness of pulling was passed on. Thing is, his mother turned into a nice horse....


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

malinda said:


> Well, I'm going to agree with the so-called "menace" friend of the OP.
> 
> A horse who pulls almost certainly has many, many holes in it's basic training.


This has certainly been true in my experience. Most problem pullers that I have encountered have had additional issues. Most of the issues boiled down to being spoiled and having poor ground manners in general. I wonder if the claustrophobic inclination to set back and pull has to do with being insecure and not trusting in their rider's/handler's/owner's leadership.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

jennigrey said:


> This has certainly been true in my experience. Most problem pullers that I have encountered have had additional issues. Most of the issues boiled down to being spoiled and having poor ground manners in general. I wonder if the claustrophobic inclination to set back and pull has to do with being insecure and not trusting in their rider's/handler's/owner's leadership.


This may be true of some horses, but honestly, I've seen horses with good basic training, no trust issues and no insecurities that were pullers. They simply did not believe they had to stand tied if they didn't want to and had learned they could break things to make that happen.

I'm all for understanding the horse's psyche and looking for underlying issues, but I think too many people get hung up on trust/insecurities/inadequate training and don't look at the simple solutions first.

Just like horses that buck ... I've seen so many people going through this long list of possible issues on horses that will buck, saddles not fitting, soreness, inadequate ground work, tension, etc. Bottom line, I can't tell you how many times I've been tossed from a working ranch horse than was just annoyed with life and figured he could go home if he got rid of his rider.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

jennigrey said:


> This has certainly been true in my experience. Most problem pullers that I have encountered have had additional issues. Most of the issues boiled down to being spoiled and having poor ground manners in general. I wonder if the claustrophobic inclination to set back and pull has to do with being insecure and not trusting in their rider's/handler's/owner's leadership.


I certainly agree. Many owners are not their horse's LEADER or boss because they don't think you should _make_ a horse do something, or anything. Horses WANT a leader, but if they have an owner who never leads the horse thinks "this dingbat isn't a leader worth following - I will have to fend for myself". Thus you see horses dragging their owners at the end of a lead rope, horses who run over a person who is trying to walk them away from their buddies, horses who spook and jump onto their owner - I could go on....

I don't get into "horse psychology" and I don't believe in anthropomorphizing. People tell me all the time when I'm out with my blind mare: "you must have great bond", "she really trusts you"... etc. No, I am the LEADER. She does what I say. She is obedient. There is no mystical bond that makes her listen to me. Horses are very happy to follow a good leader.

I do agree that some horses are just belligerent pigs by nature. Maybe working with thousands, or even tens of thousands of horses in the past couple decades has taught me to know the difference between belligerence and training or other issues.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Joshie said:


> I don't quite understand why the neck rope is needed and why a horse wouldn't tie.


A neck rope is harder for a horse to exert a good, comfortable, sustained pull against than a strap (web or leather) halter. Also harder to destroy.

The neck rope design that I use (the one shown in the photos) is adjustable. When adjusted correctly, it is impossible for the horse to back out of it, as it is too snug to slide past his jaw. At the same time, it also will not cinch down any tighter than you have adjusted it, so it cannot snug down and choke him.

If you pass the tail of the neck rope through the nose band of a strap halter and tie it somewhere between wither and poll height, with maybe 3' of slack, the horse is unable to face away from the point of tie and get a real strong and comfortable pull going.

I use neck ropes in conjunction with nylon web halters to help keep horses safely confined overnight on a highline. I also use neck ropes when I am harnessing a horse away from home, in public. I don't like to leave halters on under my bridle and I won't tie to the bit, so neck ropes allow me to keep a tether on my horse at all times while I am harnessing or unharnessing.

I'm a bit shallow when it comes to a horse's appearance; life's too short to ride an ugly horse. I try not to skin up a horse's face, so I don't try to fix a confirmed problem puller by tying them with a rope halter. I do use rope halters for a lot of other things, but I don't use them to re-train a problem puller. It can be quite effective but it can also mess their face up pretty good.

So that's "why" a neck rope is sometimes needed. Not saying it is or isn't appropriate for OP's friend's pig of a horse.

As for why a horse won't tie, it could be a number of things. The most basic and obvious reason is that it hasn't been taught. Horses are into-pressure animals by nature and instinct, rather than away-from pressure. They must be taught to be otherwise. Taught to yeild to, rather than set against, the pressure. A horse can have a claustrophobic panic attack if they are tied hard and fast without being taught the psychology of yeilding. For some horses it is a learned behavior. Through trial and success, the horse learns that he can get out of doing unpleasant things (such as standing, bored, in one place) if he refuses to stand tied. He learns that his strength can be applied in certain ways to exploit the weaknesses of the material he is secured to/with and break free. Some do it so they can then run free, while others seem to do it just for entertainment and out of sheer cussedness. 



Joshie said:


> I just figured that tying a young horse was one of the first lessons it received.


In a perfect world. If we all grew our own colts, perhaps. I don't have the land to feed up and raise a colt from birth to working age (5 or 6) so I get them as adults that are old enough and strong enough to go to work, then train the horse that I've got. I inherit the horse's genetics, history and background, including other people's methods and mistakes. Or perhaps a 1700lb "blank slate", depending. Buying a horse means training from scratch, filling holes, fixing the problems as needed. All too frequently that includes training a horse to tie.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

malinda said:


> I don't get into "horse psychology" and I don't believe in anthropomorphizing. People tell me all the time when I'm out with my blind mare: "you must have great bond", "she really trusts you"... etc. No, I am the LEADER. She does what I say. She is obedient. There is no mystical bond that makes her listen to me. Horses are very happy to follow a good leader.


Naw, now don't take a knee-jerk dim view of the word "psychology". It simply means understanding how the mind works. There's no softie hoodoo or anthropomorphizing involved or necessary. When you train well, you employ your knowledge of horse psychology, whether you have been realizing and acknowledging it or not. A huge part of comprehending horse psychology is simply knowing that _horses want a good leader_. Then there's other things like knowing that horses are flight and prey animals. That they are into-pressure animals. Stuff like that. Understanding the nature of the horse _is_ horse psychology.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> This may be true of some horses, but honestly, I've seen horses with good basic training, no trust issues and no insecurities that were pullers. They simply did not believe they had to stand tied if they didn't want to and had learned they could break things to make that happen.
> 
> I'm all for understanding the horse's psyche and looking for underlying issues, but I think too many people get hung up on trust/insecurities/inadequate training and don't look at the simple solutions first.
> 
> Just like horses that buck ... I've seen so many people going through this long list of possible issues on horses that will buck, saddles not fitting, soreness, inadequate ground work, tension, etc. Bottom line, I can't tell you how many times I've been tossed from a working ranch horse than was just annoyed with life and figured he could go home if he got rid of his rider.


THis is very true. I have had horses in the past that I have raised from a baby. They acted spooky and silly sometimes. People would say "Wow! Your horse must have really been abused before"..... Ummm no. THey are just being horses. I sold a horse to someone once that wanted to do pat parelli with him. Its been years and she still hasn't gotten on cause "he isn't ready"! What the heck?? I sold him to her as a well broke horse and I had been riding him for years. 

Lots of horses pull back cause they know the rope is going to break and they can prance off and not be tied anymore. That is why when I tie a horse I make sure its good and bloody strong. I have never had a horse break anything and get away (and I have had about 60 horses in the last 10 years). So they dont know they can. THey stop trying real quick when they first get a lesson.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> Some horses that have learned to pull will always be inclined to 'try it' occasionally, just to see if you've somehow forgotten and the leadrope has a weak spot or you've tied to something that will break.


True (my little sisters old barrel horse comes to mind), but I've learned that getting them to stand tied with the stout halter, thick rope, and sturdy tree is only the first step. This is when we go to work!. While still tied, on goes the bit. Sack, sack, sack. Every time that horse moves hit the bit. Make him absolutely convinced that every part of his body is attached to that bit with a sharp correction and a firm "whoa". 

I've learned to never say never when it comes to horses, things will always happen but you gotta get the odds in your own favor.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> I certainly agree. Many owners are not their horse's LEADER or boss because they don't think you should _make_ a horse do something, or anything. Horses WANT a leader, but if they have an owner who never leads the horse thinks "this dingbat isn't a leader worth following - I will have to fend for myself". Thus you see horses dragging their owners at the end of a lead rope, horses who run over a person who is trying to walk them away from their buddies, horses who spook and jump onto their owner - I could go on....
> 
> I don't get into "horse psychology" and I don't believe in anthropomorphizing. People tell me all the time when I'm out with my blind mare: "you must have great bond", "she really trusts you"... etc. No, I am the LEADER. She does what I say. She is obedient. There is no mystical bond that makes her listen to me. Horses are very happy to follow a good leader.
> 
> I do agree that some horses are just belligerent pigs by nature. Maybe working with thousands, or even tens of thousands of horses in the past couple decades has taught me to know the difference between belligerence and training or other issues.


I agree, Malinda. If you aren't the boss you're just part of the herd and likely to be treated as such.


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