# Best bang for the buck?



## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

Hypothetical: 

You're coming into a period of unrest and the electric grid and fuel supplies may no longer be things to take for granted. You need to rapidly obtain and implement some form of minimal energy system. You do not have sufficient wind at your location to use a windmill. You don't have access to a running river or waterfall. 

Electricity needs are well pump and nighttime breathing machines for several seniors. Power for TV and computers would be nice. Need hot water for bathing. Heat/cool for indoor environment would be nice. 

I thought a solar water heater would take care of the heated water and solar air heaters could supplement the air heating. Homemade or commercial? Sources?

Off grid photovoltiacs/storage appear to offer the only viable solution. Is there some system around 3KW to 5WK that represents a really good value? Is there any other tech to look at? 

Any other ideas?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

A system needs to be custom designed for your needs....


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Tall order if a short term is required, and costly based on the needs. Assuming you're looking at cooling with solar electric.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Take a look at your heating needs if you are in an area that gets cold enough in winter to threaten life and limb. Will you really be able to count on the Sun in the winter? If you have a source of fire wood, a heater/boiler might be your first priority.

As for electricity consider a small diesel powered generator that you can run off SVO. The best bang for the buck is very dependent on where you live. If you expect TSTHTF you're looking at a much more basic level for survival. How well would you do if your electricity was off for a month or longer?


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

For main heating, I was thinking about wood. We have a fireplace and wood-burning stoves, drying wood and lots of woodland. Supplemental heat during the day would come from solar air boxes. I think a solar water heater could provide 100% of hot water needs. I suppose we could use the ceiling fans alone and/or cool tubes for cooling.

The important thing for electrical is the well pump, breathing assist units at night and the freezers. TV, satellite and computer would be luxury loads. 

I'm not worried about spending 5K+ for components and batteries. I can install the system with a schematic. If you were doing this, what companies would you be talking to?


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

Darren said:


> If you expect TSTHTF you're looking at a much more basic level for survival. How well would you do if your electricity was off for a month or longer?





I'm wondering how to manage for short or long term without the grid. 

Worst case: EMP
Best case : The power never goes off and the price remains reasonable. No rationing, no blackouts, no brownouts


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

David is presently experimenting with creating a battery that will provide electrical current. It is working, albeit on a small scale; but there is hope!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

How close are you to Chinese restaurants? Can you store a thousand gallons of oil?


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

Darren said:


> How close are you to Chinese restaurants? Can you store a thousand gallons of oil?



I'm already doing WVO. But if the infrastructure breaks as bad as I think it might, storage will not last long and most restaurants will close. Think Zimbabwe.

If most outside inputs are cut off, I need a viable energy technology. Thats why I was thinking photovoltiacs/batteries.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You're WAY underestimating the money requirements for the electrical part of your needs. 5k spent on PV won't put much of a dent in your requirements. 

I have 20k in a self installed 3kw PV system, getting ready to expand to 5kw for another 8,000 bucks. (or so ).

You can spend 3k on a Grunfos well pump, ( will run off your AC now, and DC when you need it too ) few hundred watts of PV, and some water storage and have your water needs covered (although NOT "pump on demand" as you have now after the grid goes down)

The rest, you're gonna have to spend more.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

3K would put together a good system that would take care of the (several?) sleep aids stuff.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

You asked for the best bang for your buck. Considering you may need A/C for the elderly AND you're already doing WVO, do you have the capability of raising an oil seed crop? Likewise can you boost your WVO collection and storage to the point you can get past the initial stages of a breakdown? If so I'd recommend a WVO fueled generator as the least expensive way to do what you want. 

A lot depends on the property you own and its location. If you have the option of installing a gravity fed water system, a generator with a high quality engine with a proven history of reliability along with an extensive spare parts collection could give you decades of service. A lot depends on how long you want to be able to maintain an off the grid capability. Batteries eventually will have to be replaced. Solar cells eventually lose efficiency. A diesel generator properly housed is probably the primary component in a system that can be hardened against all hazards up to and inculding tornadoes.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

And what does it cost to raise enough oil seed crop in terms of machinery, fuel, fertilizers, combine, seed press, TIME and LABOR, and so on.....not to mention the initial cost of the diesel generator, the "extensive spare parts" and so on.

Oh, yeah...is the diesel gonna run 24/7, including 'off peak' periods when the watt use of the place is very low ? Be sorta unhandy to tell a guy with a breathing machine to "hold on until morning"....or "hold on until I get some of my extensive spare parts installed in my diesel rebuild"....ashahahaaa

If not, then guess what ? You need a battery bank, and inverter(s) to handle those periods of low, but not NO, use.....just like an off grid PV system already has.

Run the figures on that over the course of 20 year life of a solar power system, and bring it back here.....along with the real life experience of someone actually DOING it. 

This is not to "poo-pah" a veggie oil diesel genset. They could certainly play a role, especially in handling peak loads, in the same manner utility systems use secondary generators .....but to put all your bets on one, I suspect, wont' work.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

coehorn said:


> I'm already doing WVO. But if the infrastructure breaks as bad as I think it might, storage will not last long and most restaurants will close. Think Zimbabwe.
> 
> If most outside inputs are cut off, I need a viable energy technology. Thats why I was thinking photovoltiacs/batteries.


Yeah....I thought you were thinking way longer term than short outage....because that's the way I think too. 

With enough diesel storage ( or propane, etc ), you could likely get a few years of intermittent power.....though I be a WHOLE lot more inclined to save diesel fuel for producing food versus making electricity. ( that is what I store hundreds of gallons for )

Even solar is going to be limited to the life of batteries...say 20 years IF you bought the RIGHT battery right before the grid went down.

IF you're talking really long term, like a generation or two, then we likely revert to 19th century, or previous, life style. When it's dark, you go to bed, when it's cold, you heat with wood, when it's hot, you lay under a shade tree, and when someone needs a breathing machine to life, you bury them earlier.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Why would you run a diesel 24/7? I certainly wouldn't. You already know the key is to build a system in steps. Putting something together to get you by for the short term first. Then longer terms in stages. 

For me that means building a 30,000 gal. cistern into the hillside. That gives me 40 psi at the house. I have individual gas heaters with the gas coming from a local well. I can get by without electricity for weeks. Longer term I add the generator. The plan is to use a diesel modified to run on natural gas. 

I've got 2,800 gal. of fuel oil storage capacity. I could just as easily go the WVO route. Where I'm located solar is not efficient. Wind might work but the costs are so high it makes more since to go with a small fueled generator set.

I also have the ability to raise an oil seed crop much longer term. If the proper crop rotation is used, you don't need fertilizer. I bought an AC Allcrop ten years ago. All I need is to start a small plot for the seed and later get an oil extractor. Everything in steps while doing the research to figure out which components to buy for the longest life.

Before Y2K my primary concern was providing oxygen for an elderly relative for a long enough period so that I could get there and make other arrangements. The simplest solution for me was to buy H size oxygen cylinders from the manufacturer and a regulator. They had a weeks worth of oxygen if needed.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Darren said:


> Why would you run a diesel 24/7? I certainly wouldn't.


I wouldn't either, but the OP asked about running some kind of "breathing machine", which I assume requires power 24/7.....or the ability for the user to hold their breath.....ahahahaaa....
And the OP says "freezers", which, yeah, can be cycled on/off for hours if need be, but I ASSUME he is looking for some type of 24/7 electrical power.....not what "you" can do, or do without, nor what I can do or do without.





Darren said:


> For me that means building a 30,000 gal. cistern into the hillside. That gives me 40 psi at the house. I have individual gas heaters with the gas coming from a local well. I can get by without electricity for weeks.


So, I'm curious....did you actually build a 30,000 gallon cistern ? 

I have a 3,000 gallon one, that is spring fed, then gravity to the house, and unless you have a really tiny spring, or plan on supplying a community, that is plenty of storage capacity.

BUT that, along with natural gas from a well, ( which I don't have ) are LOCATION dependent. You have to have the resources available to use them, and those locations are not all that common.

I assume, since the OP didn't mention those resources, he doesn't have them....and thus, what to set up for the most "bang for the buck" in lieu of natural resources.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

"Individual gas heaters" . . .wow

Having your own source of fuel (gas) is fine and dandy . . . .But that sure ain't fair when you enter that into your "discussion" . . . .There is so very very very few of us that have a luxury such as that. 
And a bunch of the 'care for the elderly' CAN NOT wait for you to come in and get off your tractor when your doing that field crop of what ever........


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

TnAndy said:


> I wouldn't either, but the OP asked about running some kind of "breathing machine", which I assume requires power 24/7.....or the ability for the user to hold their breath.....ahahahaaa....


Nope,Im thinking its more CPAP machine which use little power running at night,helps with sleep apnea by keeping the airway open with a flow of air.Hardly end of the world to go a few nights without one.Just sleep sitting upright.

Several old folks,on CONT. ventilation doesnt sound right at all.

And why he just doesnt run a gas powered genny with battery backup,sure has huge resources there.


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

mightybooboo said:


> Nope,Im thinking its more CPAP machine which use little power running at night,helps with sleep apnea by keeping the airway open with a flow of air.Hardly end of the world to go a few nights without one.Just sleep sitting upright.
> 
> Several old folks,on CONT. ventilation doesnt sound right at all.
> 
> And why he just doesnt run a gas powered genny with battery backup,sure has huge resources there.






Two seniors, aged 80 and 81 require a cpap machine (I think that's the correct name) because they tend to hold their breath when they sleep. It really pushes their O2 levels down.

We have gennys but like I mentioned earlier, I want to be prepared for infrastructure meltdown. A meltdown where fuel and food does not have regular deliveries. Solar is the only resource I can see that is not affected by criminal and/or incompetent government.

Even if we dissolve fedgov and start fresh no interference from the military or state governments, there may be a period of extreme instability.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

coehorn said:


> Two seniors, aged 80 and 81 require a cpap machine (I think that's the correct name) because they tend to hold their breath when they sleep. It really pushes their O2 levels down.


Its an airway obstruction actually.

Why not a battery back up and a few solar cells,that will keep the CPAPS running,find out the juice they use and the pro's can figure out a solar array size for you for that.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t45078/CPAP-power-usage-and-cost-to-operate.html
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Looks like they use 2-300 watts,but that they make a 20 watt model (like everything else they have really dropped in size),you may want to look into getting low power ones vrs the cost of the solar system running the much larger power users.320 watt hrs/day would run 2 of those 8 hours daily.

5000 can build you a system that will run it and do lots more to boot in the meantime when you still have power from civilization.Figure out the fusing,mounting (Can be 2x4 frames as far as it goes,or angle iron,or even L brackets to a roof...doesnt have to be pro EXPENSIVE mounts) and battery and wiring costs,get a 350 dollar sinewave inverter and a reasonable cost controller and spend the rest on cells would be my plan.
----------------------------------
Heck,either one of these would be pretty close to what you need,the solar powered golf cart mobile power system has all kinds of utility for 3 grand...
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=380758

My truck system would be pretty close too....I got 320 watts panels, and a 2000 watt sinewave inverter (350 bucks new), using used stuff for 1300 bucks!
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=350572&highlight=solar+truck


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

What I'm pointing out is that if you adopt an incremental approach, you can eventually end up prepared for more possibilities. As an example water has been a problem here in the past. We've had dry spells that have affected the recharge rate of our well. The first step was hooking up to county water and using the well as a backup and for use for the minimal livestock we have. We've had disruptions with the county water system. In our case we close one valve and open another and rely on the well for everything. Raising livestock adds to the need for water especially if you plan on keeping a bunch of four legged animals through any imaginable situation.

The next step for us is building a cistern that contains enough potable water for the family and livestock in emergencies when there's a problem with the well and public water isn't available. We were lucky to have a natural bench on the hill about 100' above the house. Between a neighbor using a dozer to expand the bench and a rented excavator, there's now a 40' L, 15' W, 13' deep pit in that bench. This summer the concrete foundation and discharge piping will be installed after I finish leveling the rock to provide an even base for the cistern floor. The house is virtually inacessible by the fire department for several reasons. A 30,000 gallon cistern contains plenty of water to stop a fire if it's caught very soon after starting not to mention the normal use for a situation of no or very limited water. 

If you look at the absolute needs first then the "it would be nice ifs" you can work out a plan. I work on a pay as I go basis. I suspect many folks do the same that don't have money coming out of their ears. Things which were not mentioned in the OP was the availability of woodlands for firewood, and the poster's experience with a WVO powered diesel. If you're looking for a short term solution that will get you by, that's one thing. If you need a solution that will still work decades later, that's another.

While the elderly need breathing assistance at night, what's going to happen if the grid goes down during a heat wave? Will the solar setup to run a CPAP machine run an air conditioner? It's typically the elderly without A/C that die in disportionate numbers during heat waves.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Darren said:


> While the elderly need breathing assistance at night, what's going to happen if the grid goes down during a heat wave? Will the solar setup to run a CPAP machine run an air conditioner? It's typically the elderly without A/C that die in disportionate numbers during heat waves.


Lots of fluids,outdoor under trees,the porch with wet compresses and a fan,wet burlap over window screens and fan,cool baths...yeah,they will survive.


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## Wheeloptions (Jan 11, 2011)

Coehorn, from your descriptions, my take on this is to do everything you can. Modest pv solar/batts/inverter; small to medium genset gas or diesel; Wind turbine if you can; Passive solar tromb walls & heat boxes with buried cooling tubes tied into venting; External water/steam boiler that can run on liquid/gas/solid fuels; Gas fridge/freezer(s), Solar passive water heaters with large btu storage capacity (big tank); AC/DC well pump or better yet a lift cylinder/pump jack combo that can run on any motive power; One or two tracking parabolic C band dish hi temp btu solar collectors heating air; High temp btu heat sink storage (insulated metal culvert buried in the ground filled with metal shavings and a heat exchanger coil); Small 5-15hp steam engine to run off boiler above; Belt driven generator head or if you're desperate maybe some big 150/200 amp diesel truck alternators and more inverters; A homemade oil press, alcohol still, and water distiller would be great too. The high temp btu storage would be able to directly replace propane/natural gas heat source used by appliances. By the way, I picked up 6 & 10 foot C band dishes for free from Craigs list. No doubt this is almost entirely a do it yourself undertaking, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood. What better toys?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Darren . .sure solar PV can run AC . . . thats easy . . .
But you best sit down before you see the "sticker shock"..........

Yup booboo has a good list of options to AC.........

Wheel . . . .like your list of "toys" . . LOL


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Out of curiosity, how do you protect a solar power system and the electronics from an EMP?


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## PastTense (Mar 22, 2010)

Coehurn: You didn't provide enough information. Let's take water: 
1. How much water do you need in a year (and for what)?
2. How deep is your well?
3. How much rainfall do you get in a year?

(for example you might get water simply by collecting rain water... if you have a shallow well you could simply manually pump it...)


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Darren said:


> Out of curiosity, how do you protect a solar power system and the electronics from an EMP?


IMO very low risk if you arent living in a cave if atom bombs start,emp will NOT be limiting factor,it will be all out war.Say Bye bye!

You really believe we will accept Bombs bursting in air without a massive counter strike and nuclear war? I find that farfetched,then again I find nuke war the same,but it did happen to our WWII foes.

Thats beyond my prepping trying to make a USA gov/ elite bunker.A pantry,a paid for home,some power,thats where Im at/what I can do.Im not Bill Gates.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Wheel,like your list too! 

I really need to play with those dishes with mylar/mirrors thats some intense heat,now how to use it usefully I need to see more info,anybody got some links/experience?

Welcome Bud!
-----------------------------
That small system could deal with a small evap cooler esp when the sun is full force,its just a water pump and fan,make your own for that matter.I have one BTW,pretty cool little unit,sits in the window,about the size of a family picnic cooler.... OK,now its humid....why I didnt bother mentioning it didnt want to split hairs endlessly,but they do work and are solar friendly.

And keep increasing that system to your hearts content and wallets thickness.Lots of folks here doing THAT.Love it!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I share the opinion that an EMP is a low risk. However the OP listed that as a concern. We're back to the practicality of any preperations. If someone is preping for an EMP, then a mechanical diesel or gas engine, without an ECM, is something that will get you through that event with intact operable equipment.


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

Ok, I've found some Sharp 200 watt panels for $400 each. These panels are :


Sharp ND-198U1F	198	7.52	26.3	+10%/-5%	39.6	1319803	$394


This is confusing to me. If I am using a charge controller to charge 12V batteries, won't I lose a lot of power since these panel produce 26 Volts? If I am pulling power thru an inverter at the same time these are charging, will it damage the charge controller?


http://www.wholesalesolar.com/specials.html


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

If you have wood a stove that heats/cooks and supplies your hot water is big bang for the buck.


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

PastTense said:


> Coehurn: You didn't provide enough information. Let's take water:
> 1. How much water do you need in a year (and for what)?
> 2. How deep is your well?
> 3. How much rainfall do you get in a year?
> ...





1) This may be family fall-back location so 10 gallons per day consumption. Maybe 500 gallons per day other uses. So ... 187,000 gallons per year.

2) Two wells, over 300' deep each.

3) At this location, 50 to 60 inches per year.


My sister sent info on storing rainwater. Makes a lot of sense.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

coehorn said:


> Ok, I've found some Sharp 200 watt panels for $400 each. These panels are :
> 
> 
> Sharp ND-198U1F	198	7.52	26.3	+10%/-5%	39.6	1319803	$394
> ...


Excellent price.That would be a 24 volt system.No 12 volt involved.

A nice bang for buck controller...135 dollars
http://www.ecodirect.com/Morningstar-TS-45-12-24-p/morningstar-tristar-ts-45.htm

I like 12 volt panels because you can tie them together to get any multiple of 12 you like,and 12 volt stuff tends to cheaper to some degree,wires are more costly because they carry higher amps for same wattage output.

Now 2 of those panels making 48 volts for your portable power system,a grand in super batteries agrand or less in a cart,a cheap inverter gets you driving 100 miles per charge and you are electro man!


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

mightybooboo said:


> Excellent price.That would be a 24 volt system.No 12 volt involved.
> 
> A nice bang for buck controller...135 dollars
> http://www.ecodirect.com/Morningstar-TS-45-12-24-p/morningstar-tristar-ts-45.htm



"Morningstarâs TriStar Controller is a three-function controller that provides reliable solar battery charging, load control or diversion regulation. The controller operates in one of these modes at a time and two or more controllers may be used
to provide multiple functions."

Does this mean I'd need one controller to mind the batteries and a second controller to pass the voltage to an inverter?

What inverters do you favor?

What batteries do you favor for stationary applications?


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Im a big fan of Morningstar for small systems.Excellent quality,excellent reputation,very good price.

The way it goes is panels to controller to battery(s) to inverter.Fuse between panels and controller and controller to battery and BIG fuse between battery and inverter.

Just one controller.PWM controllers are the older models being replaced by MPPT that are more efficient but for the price difference on small system PWM is just fine.

Battery,lots of opinions on that.

Here is a really simple battery backup system I did.The small 300 watt inverter isnt fused as its internally fused and just clamps to the battery terminals (though I wired it directly to batteries).But it explains pretty well how its wired and how simple small systems can be.

http://eastcherokee.proboards.com/i...y&board=electricgaswoodoil&thread=3323&page=1


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

coehorn said:


> Ok, I've found some Sharp 200 watt panels for $400 each. These panels are :
> 
> 
> Sharp ND-198U1F	198	7.52	26.3	+10%/-5%	39.6	1319803	$394
> ...


Those panels are designed for a grid-tied system. To use them with a 12v battery bank off-grid would require the use of an MPPT Charge Controller. 

VMP of 26.3V which is not high enough for a 24V system.

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/pdf.folder/module pdf folder/SharpND-198U1F.pdf


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Great catch WWW! I'll be sure to watch those voltages in the future....I had no idea they had dropped them for grid tie setups,thanks for the education!


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## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

coehorn said:


> Ok, I've found some Sharp 200 watt panels for $400 each. These panels are :
> 
> 
> Sharp ND-198U1F	198	7.52	26.3	+10%/-5%	39.6	1319803	$394
> ...


Those panels would be fine with an MPPT charge controller. It will step the voltage down to 12v. you will always lose a little power any time you run it through any device but todays mppt cc's are pretty efficient.

I have an array with 98vmp strings and another with 108vmp strings going to my 48v bank. 

With higher voltage you can use smaller gauge wire and still avoid too much voltage drop over distance.

The charge controller doesn't care if you have an inverter pulling power or not. It only watches the voltage on the battery bank and pulls from the panels when it falls below your set points. If the batteries are at your set points then the cc doesn't do much. 

As soon as a load hits the inverter the voltage on the bank drops and then the cc pulls from the array to try to bring it back where it is set to. You won't damage the cc by using an inverter while it is charging.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Small system just get panels putting out higher volts,the older smaller panels and get a controller for 140 bucks,not 450.
--------------------------------------

Look for 17.5 volts or so on 12v panel,or double on a 24v panel.
Like this 12v 140 watt panel puts out 17.5 volts VMP (like WWW pointed out).

You arent trying to make a bleeding edge system unless you want to pay bleeding edge prices.

Also if small go 12v,easier to upgrade and more used bargains on oldie but goody panels.And they can always be tied together to get 24/48 volts if you go that route in the future.But to take 24v down to 12v for that great dirt cheap 12v gate opener you found,or fence charger,or lights in the shed/barn...that gets pricey for a small stand alone use. 

And thats just the problem my Bud with 24v panels is finding,some 12 and 36 volt applications his panels arent suitable for.but my 12v's will handle without a second thought. But he is in 24v mode and nothing will change his mind,even after this has happened.

Performance
Rated power (Pmax) 140W
Power tolerance Â± 9%
Nominal voltage 12V
Limited Warranty1 25 years
Configuration
J SX 3140J Clear universal frame and standard J-Box
Electrical Characteristics2 SX3140 SX3130
Maximum power (Pmax)3 140W 130W

*Voltage at Pmax (Vmp) 17.5V 17.3V*
Current at Pmax (Imp) 8.0A 7.5A

Warranted minimum Pmax 127.4W 118.3W
Short-circuit current (Isc) 8.2A 8.2A
Open-circuit voltage (Voc) 22.0V 22.0V


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