# Are Bulls too Dangerous to Keep?



## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

When looking for a Family Dairy Cow yesterday, we found two of the most beautiful Holstein bulls born on Wednesday in an Amish Dairy. Although he did not have any cows to sell us, he and my husband got to talking. He explained to my husband that when selling his bull calves at the sales barn and paying all the fees, he doesn't come home with much. He offered my husband one of the calves for $20. He told us whenever we want one and he has it, he would sell it to us at that price. He was very friendly and gave us a lot of very good advice to get us started. Even where to buy feed cheaper. My husband spoke to him again this morning and he told my husband that he has been thinking of us and how we have no experience. He stated he wanted to warn us that bulls can be very dangerous after a year. He stated we should try selling them or slaughtering them before a year.

I'm sorry to bother you guys again with yet another of what you guys must find as silly questions, but what precautions could we take in managing our bulls? We were speaking to another guy about two of his jersey steers who are already 9 or 10 months old. We wanted to slaughter them this fall. We would also love to be able to raise and keep at least two bulls a year until time to slaughter (18 months to 2 years) for ourselves and to sell. How much meat would we be able to get if we slaughter at a year?

What advice can you give a newbie who wants to get into this?


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I've heard that Holstein and Jersey bulls are notoriously mean. Why do you want to keep bulls? Why not band them and turn them into steers? We have two Jersey bull calves and so far their sweet, but we are prepared.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Are you wanting to use them for breeding?
If not intended for breeding, then steer those little bull calves! Steering will take away the main issue when it comes to bulls=hormones. 
Yes, steers can still be dangerous(as can cows) if improperly handled, but not like bulls. Any bovine can harm you if you do not give it the respect its size deserves.
The problem with bulls is that added to the 600-2000 lbs of muscle, you have to add in the wild card of hormones.

If you do intend to use for breeding, then just keep one intact, use as soon as he is tall enough, then butcher.
But, depending on what is available in your area, you might be well ahead to look at AI if you are just going to have a couple cows.

We have always kept bulls, as have my Dad and Grandad, but I will say that it is *not* a good way for bovine newbies to start out.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

make them STEERS then that are not much of a problem but still would not turn my back or let little kids near


size at 2 yearswill matter on how much feed and protien % of feed


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

now that is advice all three typing same time and all three same answer STEER THEM


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

AWESOME!!! Thank you. I thought when he stated bulls are mean, he also meant steers. The two jerseys we are getting are both steers. The bull calf will then be turned into a steer. No Problem. We do not have any plans to breed anytime soon. 

Woohoo! You have made me really happy. Then once we get more experience, we should be able to do more "steers" per year without the "bull" dangers. This has been what my husband has been wanting to do for a long time, but our new friend really scared us this morning.

So at what age do we turn them into steers? My husband is now thinking of taking both of them from his hands. Most Holsteins we have seen sell for about $80 - $100 in our area, so I'm guessing at $20 we are getting an awesome deal.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

For new bovine owners, I band the young bull calves before they leave the farm. You might ask him if he can do that. If not, band them before they hit one month of age.
I am selling all our bull calves off the farm this year for $50 each. Haven't had any hang around very long. As bull calf prices are low at the salebarn, I am very pleased.
When I used to buy bull calves like you are considering doing(I used to raise 15-20 bull calves per year on extra milk), I used to have to pay $100 across the board for Holstien bull calves. Prices are lower now......


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Find out if they were allowed to nurse on their mothers. They really need to get colostrum from her and it's too late for store-bought colostrum to do them any good. That's where they get their immunity to diseases. Without it they don't have much chance to survive.

Dairy breed bulls are notoriously mean. Turn them into steers as soon as possible, before they learn bullish ways. If both testicles are down in the sack, it's not too soon to do it.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

Be glad you have someone to help you with the ins and outs or raising bottle calves. they can sure be tricky, read the sticky about bottle calves, for sure. Holstien steers are not as hard to handle as bulls, so you will do fine. Just always be paying attention, don't let the sweet little calves fool you, when they get up around 500 lbs they can still be playing, but hurt you, without even meaning to.


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## TSYORK (Mar 16, 2006)

band him, grow him, then eat him!


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## kscowboy (Apr 27, 2008)

even holstein steers will get mean at about 15-16 months. And if there is a cow in season , they will act like bulls. i had one knock me on my ----- a couple months ago , were eating him now ! 
After you have been around them for a few years you can tell by listening to their grunts and their body language who's looking for a fight. 
Every body asks how you can take them to butcher when their so cute , at 16 months 1100 lbs they are beyond cute and it's time to go.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I have a 10 mo old jersey - steer. He is simply obnoxious or a nuisance - first one with his face in the feed trough last one to take it out. Tried to open the barn door with his nose. 

Big difference in a bull and a steer - which is mean can depend on the animal. We will AI our heifer.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I have never had steers get mean, I have seen steers that have gotten out and lots of people chasing them to get them in and one or two getting worn out and crancky, will turn on people. Bulls on the other hand can get real nasty, when I was younger I barrowed a holstein bull from my father and was never mean at dads but turned nasty at my place. After the second time being chased by him , he went by-by. Last year after a.i. breeding our jersey`s, after preg checking and found 1/3 open, we decided to get a bull to breed. We bought a young bull and got all the cows and 4 heifers bred. Never having a bit of trouble with him. He has now gone to the neighbors to breed his Holstein heifers and he has been very calm. My new bull for next year may not be so nice, I have raised him from calf , so he is not scared of me. allready shaking his head and butting things around. He will be the one to watch, never turn your back on a bull. Thanks marc.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I'm trying to figure out how to warn you but not scare you.............

Steers are for the most part fairly docile and stable minded. Being handled can help, but never let the young ones butt you or push you around. That might be cute when they are young but could be deadly when they are full grown. Do not pet or scratch them on top of the head or around the ears, this can encourage head butting. Instead scratch them under the chin.

Like any animal be it dog, horse, etc. you need to establish command and control. That doesn't mean being cruel or mean, just that they need to respect you and your space.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Bulls can be unpredictable but they can also used to great benefit. I would never try to make a pet of a bull or a steer. Same with my cows. My herd and I have a arms length agreement. We never get any closer to each other than arms length. I do not scratch heads or give treats. They expect nothing from me but access to forage. I expect them to give way and to permit me to attend to the calves. If the bull doesn't want to move I stand until he does. I do not push him to do anything but he has learned that I am the one that gets the right of way always. Each day I go into the pasture with the herd. I castrate by banding and I ear tag every calf. The cows stand nearby as I do this displaying no aggression. Those that showed aggression have long since taken a one way trip. How would you like to share the pasture each day with this guy if he was rowdy?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Agman' Ive been around them much of my life, including on large ranches and feedlots. I agree with you 100%.

Funny thing is that outside of a rodeo arena I've never been treed by a bull, only cows.


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## Pat (Jul 24, 2004)

I don't beleive in AI! So, having intact male animals is just part of living... I do keep a dog with me when I go into the field (and don't have to keep 1 eye out for the males and 1 for what I'm doing.)

Usually any male is only agressive when something is in heat (but, I can't always tell when that is!)

I only keep males for 1 year... then either swap up or freezer camp and replace. (true for rams as well as bulls)

Pat


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

springvalley said:


> I have never had steers get mean, I have seen steers that have gotten out and lots of people chasing them to get them in and one or two getting worn out and crancky, will turn on people. Bulls on the other hand can get real nasty, when I was younger I barrowed a holstein bull from my father and was never mean at dads but turned nasty at my place. After the second time being chased by him , he went by-by. Last year after a.i. breeding our jersey`s, after preg checking and found 1/3 open, we decided to get a bull to breed. We bought a young bull and got all the cows and 4 heifers bred. *Never having a bit of trouble with him. He has now gone to the neighbors to breed his Holstein heifers and he has been very calm.* My new bull for next year may not be so nice, I have raised him from calf , so he is not scared of me. allready shaking his head and butting things around. He will be the one to watch, never turn your back on a bull. Thanks marc.


I hope you neighbors eat him soon. I did the same thing a few years ago. Raised "Friendly Freddie" the Jersey bull, used him before a year of age and sold him. Told the guy to use him quick and butcher. Instead, he kept him around several months until one day grandpa was messing with him and got between him and some of his lady cows. Freddie attacked and would have killed him if a neighbor hadn't come running.

Hand raised bulls see you as a herdmate that is competing for breeding rights. Not a good situation.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Personally, I wouldn't advise any small farm to keep any form of dairy bull around for no longer than it takes to get all the cows bred and then ship him off. It may cost you a partial calf crop waiting for all the cows to come in within the same month and then keep them together for another month to clean up anything that wasn't bred the first go-round. Otherwise, a bull that has nothing to do will either go roaming to the neighbor's place (most beef farmers would take serious exception to having part of their calf crop turn out 1/2 dairy) or wear the fences and hayrings out venting his frustrations. 

They're kind of like a pitbull dog. They may be raised and treated respectively but there's overwhelming odds that sooner or later they're gonna have a bad hair day and wreak havoc on someone or something. 

For those who don't believe in AI servicing, there's always the possibility of leasing one from a dairy or turning the neighbors beef bull in to your pasture for a couple of months. I'm sure he'd be glad for you to feed him for a few weeks anyway. Just my two cents....


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I don't like AI, I have always kept bulls. With common sense and mutual respect, I have never had problems.
But would I advise a person completely new to cows to start out with a bull?? No Way. Steer that sucker till you have some experience.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Agmantoo, I too have never taken any crap from a beef bull and have had them around for years with no problem. Dairy bulls seem to be more aggressive, I think maybe because they are bottle feed and trhink you are one of them. It may just be in their nature I don`t know but I don`t plan on keeping any bull around very long. Anyone remember the old bull blinds the old timers use to put on the bulls so they couldn`t see you ?? Thanks Marc.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I've been known to carry a club out to the barn with me every morning and work the young jersey over to the point of him running to the far end of the pasture everytime he see's me coming. 
A ring and chain in the nose is also a deterent for a feisty bull!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

All the old dairy barns around here have a cage made of steel pipe in one corner. It was for the bull.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

okie said:


> I've been known to carry a club out to the barn with me every morning and work the young jersey over to the point of him running to the far end of the pasture everytime he see's me coming.
> A ring and chain in the nose is also a deterent for a feisty bull![/QUOT
> 
> Just keep up that sort of foolishness and, probably sooner than later, your name will appear on the obit page with a sentence saying "he was killed by a Jersey bull".
> ...


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

Thanks a lot everyone. This advice is appreciated. We have decided to buy two from this guy and they will definitely be steered. 

Agmantoo, I will definitely not want that chasing me. They are gorgeous though. 

Fancimilker, when the time comes I will definitely take your advice and only keep a bull long enough to breed my girls before he gets shipped off. This will be a while from now though. We do not have plans to breed anytime soon.

We are very new to farming (obviously since I didn't know bulls and steers were that different in temperaments, feel kinda silly now lol). The plan so far is to experiment with different animals and see what works best for us and fits our needs. Our main goal at the moment is to provide our own naturally raised food for our family to eat (I like the thought of knowing what I am eating and feeding my family) and sell whatever excess we have before we try to make a business out of anything. Although I would love to make money from our farming, I know that is something that comes with experience. As we experiment with having different animals in our farm, whatever animal/breed we can not handle will be sold. We will definitely keep a dairy cow for our dairy needs, but the steers will be an experiment. My husband really wants to get into selling beef. We are buying two. One we are planning on splitting with a friend who will buy half and the other we will be selling. If things go well, we will continue to buy calves from our neighbor, steer them, then sell them. If things go really well, in the future we will start keeping cows and either borrowing a bull or having them AI'd until we really have the experience needed to handle these animals. 

I am so glad you guys wrote all of this. Not that I'm scared because being scared doing what we are doing is just plain silly. But you have given me the *respect* I need to be able to handle these animals (dairy cow included, even if she is tame). To be honest the first thing my husband and I did when this bull started following us around the farm is pet him on his head. Now we know that is a _no, no_.

One question I would like to ask though.....Is it OK to keep them with my goats? Would they hurt them?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

jlgoinggreen
If you plan on having natural raised beef for your food and to sell you need to concentrate on how to grow high quality pastures.


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> jlgoinggreen
> If you plan on having natural raised beef for your food and to sell you need to concentrate on how to grow high quality pastures.


Yes, I am aware. I have been reading the sticky on this list. Anything else (books, websites, etc...) you recommend I familiarize myself with? Remember we are very new to all of this, any advice is appreciated. Thank you. :goodjob:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Goats will be fine. When I was a kid we had a big white weather. He always hung out with the bull. They would butt heads. Kinda funny, a black angus bull with white hair all over his face.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

jlgoinggreen said:


> One question I would like to ask though.....Is it OK to keep them with my goats? Would they hurt them?


Our goats share pastures with our cows/bulls, but they need their own barn space. The size difference is just too great to be safe in small enclosed spaces.
Our cows do not get to go in the barn, as they shelter under the trees in bad weather. So all I do is put a board across the barn door at cow chest height. The goats go under the board, the cows are not able.
The one time I had a goat and cow in the barn together(accidental), the results for the goat was almost death. The cow didn't try to hurt the goat........but she was just too big to safely lay down next to her!!


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

"Although I would love to make money from our farming, I know that is something that comes with experience."

And lots of time, not even then. With experience, you will learn that you may be able to feed out a couple of extra head, sell them, and offset mightily your expenses for feeding the one you eat, perhaps even pay off some fencing or other needed equipment. You can make a wonderful LIFE farming, but making a LIVING from it is quite another thing. Research a lot, continue to ask questions, go SLOWLY!


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Chixarecute said:


> "Although I would love to make money from our farming, I know that is something that comes with experience."
> 
> And lots of time, not even then. With experience, you will learn that you may be able to feed out a couple of extra head, sell them, and offset mightily your expenses for feeding the one you eat, perhaps even pay off some fencing or other needed equipment. You can make a wonderful LIFE farming, but making a LIVING from it is quite another thing. Research a lot, continue to ask questions, go SLOWLY!


I'll second that. Unless you are a BIG farm, the chances of making a living off of it are very difficult. Unless you go into one of the speciality areas like organic vegies or something like that. I love farm life, but as far as making a living off of it.....all I can say is I wish. LOL


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

In my opinion, starting out with dairy steers is a hard way to go. Unless they got mothers colostrum, they are already testing fate.
Dairy bulls are known to be aggressive, you should never keep one unless you are experienced.
Beef breed bulls, depending on the breed, however can be a different story. Still not 'safe', and you shouldn't without experience.
If you want an animal to raise for meat, then it should be a steer. Steers are fairly tame, but when they hit about 3 1/2 years old, if you keep them too long, they turn into jerks and can cause problems.

We have 5 bulls currently, 2 scottish highlands (they keep their distance, but not at all aggressive), a highland/hereford cross (somewhat jerkish), a texas longhorn (aloof, but docile), and a pinzgauer (biggest baby I've ever seen). 

I can pet alot of our cows, steers, and the pinzgauer bull, but in general, the arms length rule applies. Its safer that way, and I can walk in close proximity amongst the herd anytime without too much of a worry.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

A guy a couple of miles away from here also had a similar experience with a bull. Raised him on the bottle. One day he was walking across the pasture and reached over to scratch the bull on the nose. Bull then turned on him and eventually rolled him under the fence. As I recall, he spent several months in the hospital. One of his sons took out a rifle and dropped the bull there in the pasture. As near as they can figure he had been fighting with another bull and lost. When he saw him he figured here is someone I can take it out on.

How many dairy wifes have said, "We still don't know what happened. That bull was just a baby. Then Henry went down to feed him and didn't come back. The only way we knew it was Henry was his coveralls."

Some folks like to grow them out to six months or so before cutting. Really not hard to do if you have a headgate. Plus enough for a cajones sandwich.

I am down to running a dozen cows. I rent-a-bull from a local purebred breeder of Romanolas. Last year it was a young bull servicing his first cows. This year a ten-year-old bull (which is extremely old for a servicing bull) being phased out of his herd. $350 for four months. If I bought and returned one through the sales barn the expenses there would likely be about $150. And I get a known product. He doesn't send me bum bulls, plus he delivers and picks up.

Last Angus bull I had became 'bucket crazy'. You simply didn't get between him and a feed bucket. Put me down and rolled me. He had wheels under him next market day with instructions to the barn staff to not sell him as a breeder.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Although I would love to make money from our farming, I know that is something that comes with experience."

I think I raise calfs as cheap as anybody.....I CAN NOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE MONEY ON BULL CALFS UNLESS YOU BUY THEM ONE DAY AND SELL THEM THE NEXT DAY

I do not think making $50 on a calf that u keep feed and bottle feed for a year is making money

I now sell my milk cow bull calfs to a little old lady that makes money on them but she only gets 5 or 6 a year from me and she has that many friends that want to buy a beef


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

Hmmm.....now you have me stumped. I'm just curious, if you don't make money why do you do it? Right now we are buying the two to feed our family healthier raised meats and have friends who want to buy the other. My dh is hoping to make money in the future doing this if it all works out with these two. Meaning we make "some" money. After reading how many you guys raise per year, I honestly thought it might be a good idea for the future, but now wonder. Why do you guys do it if not to make money?


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

myersfarm said:


> Although I would love to make money from our farming, I know that is something that comes with experience."
> 
> I think I raise calfs as cheap as anybody.....I CAN NOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE MONEY ON BULL CALFS UNLESS YOU BUY THEM ONE DAY AND SELL THEM THE NEXT DAY
> 
> ...




We make pretty good money on bull calves. We raise and sell them for freezer beef to an established customer base. We don't do it on large scale, nor would I want to, but we do quite well. The heifers become family milk cows. 

Our calves, Jersey and JerseyXDexter crosses are dam raised, grown out and finished mostly on grass. We avoid most of the health related and labor issues involved with bought and bottled calves, and it's cheaper.

When the calves are weaned we start milking, buy a few small feeder pigs and grow them out on clabbered milk, grass, garden and orchard surplus, and a little corn, we have a ready market for our pork. We dry off the cows when the hogs are butchered so I don't have to milk in the winter.


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

65284 said:


> We make pretty good money on bull calves. We raise and sell them for freezer beef to an established customer base. We don't do it on large scale, nor would I want to, but we do quite well. The heifers become family milk cows.
> 
> Our calves, Jersey and JerseyXDexter crosses are dam raised, grown out and finished mostly on grass. We avoid most of the health related and labor issues involved with bought and bottled calves, and it's cheaper.
> 
> When the calves are weaned we start milking, buy a few small feeder pigs and grow them out on clabbered milk, grass, garden and orchard surplus, and a little corn, we have a ready market for our pork. We dry off the cows when the hogs are butchered so I don't have to milk in the winter.


OK...now this makes more sense. This is exactly what my husband has planned to do except also add chickens and turkeys, who we've been told 
can also get the excess milk.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

YOU have to keep in mind I raise dairy HEIFERS ..MOST PEOPLE CAN MAKE MONEY ON THEM if you can keep them alive



Money is money but if you only raise BULLS lets say 10 and make $100 a piece which I fell would be real hard thats a $1000 is that money when you count your time fixing fence worring over a sick one...If you count everything inccluding the stuff you just happen to pick up with your pocket money it will not be anywere near that $1000


If you can raise 5 and get your beef free most people raise those 5 sell 4 and eat the free one why so many people do it, but if those people raised a hundred they could not find a hundred people every year wanting a beef


I guess the question is HOW MUCH is pretty good money...$20...$50..$100...$500... $750 or $1000 on each calf or the average on the herd of calfs from buying to selling


I see holstiens bulls/steers selling at 300 lbs for $.60 a pound thats $180....
buy them for $30 
put in milk replacer at $50 
thats leaves $100 
now put on 200 pounds of meat for that $100 that does not includes grain you start them on or hay
most people do not figure in the cost of GRASS...from taxes ,, fuel for the trator ,,fence repair

it would be easier going to sale barn buy the 300 pounder and then take them up to 700 in a year sell then and eat your free one


but you can make money on a few because you can get more money for them but HOW MANY people do you know buy a beef ever










jlgoinggreen said:


> Hmmm.....now you have me stumped. I'm just curious, if you don't make money why do you do it? Right now we are buying the two to feed our family healthier raised meats and have friends who want to buy the other. My dh is hoping to make money in the future doing this if it all works out with these two. Meaning we make "some" money. After reading how many you guys raise per year, I honestly thought it might be a good idea for the future, but now wonder. Why do you guys do it if not to make money?


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

65284 how many steers do you raise each year ?


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

we sell beef to an established customer base, that is slowly growing, we raise our own, however. probably half a dozen people buy a quarter from us a year, and we sell to the local schools. they buy a finished animal at a time. we find it most profitable to finish and butcher at 1200-1500 pounds. we have bought dairy steers to raise, but found them not worth the trouble. they just don't thrive like a beef breed without extra grain or supplements. we arent willing to go that route for the amount of trouble it is. I have also been told that dairy steer meat doesnt taste that great, but I myself have never tried it.

Too bad we didn't have better luck with them. A 'wet' dairy bull can be had here all day long for less than 40$. I paid 12, 12.50, and free X3 for the 5 we had.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

myersfarm said:


> 65284 how many steers do you raise each year ?


We calve 6 cows, 4 Dexter & 2 Jersey plus the heifers from 2 years previous, so we raise how ever many steers the cows give us. And I didn't mean that in a smart----- way, it's usually pretty close to 50-50 on 8-10 calves. No outside calves are bought.

We are currently getting $3.50 per# hanging weight for sides, including processing, our 25# beef packs, a mix of cuts, are bringing $4.00 per# actual delivered wt. The pork packs are $4.00 #; our fresh eggs go for $2.50 per dz. We sell our products as natural raised with no antibiotics or non-natural hormones, mostly grass/hay fed so we donât have a huge feed input. 

I am very fortunate in several respects 1. I live close to Columbia, Mo itâs a college town, University of Missouri and 2 others, and numerous medical facilities, so lots of people with plenty of money to spend on food they want to buy. 2. I have access to very high quality hay, less than Â¼ mile from my place @ $20 ea. for 1000# bales. 3. I have an excellent and very reasonable priced processor, my cost including kill fee, cutting. grinding, packaging, etc. runs about $.50 per # hanging weight.

Granted, someone in an extremely rural area a long way from the type customer base I have would struggle to have the success we are. This didn't happen overnight, we have worked for several years to develop our market 

The Dexter and Dexter X steers finish out at 600-800# so they are not huge carcasses, very affordable, small enough to fit in a home freezer, and be consumed by a small family before it freezer burns. The Jersey steers are usually ground into hamburger; I have customers that prefer it.

The fresh heifers are sold as family milk cows, I make sure they are tame and friendly, broke to lead, will milk by hand or machine, from either side and bred back for a 3/4, or more, Jersey calf. Depending upon the individual we usually get $1000-1500 each. 

It is work, but not as hard as it sounds, since I enjoy being around and working with the cows and heifers. I wouldnât want to have to make a living at it, but itâs a nice supplement to our retirement. We have our system refined to the point that it USUALLY goes pretty smoothly. Also, we are in the position of not having to "make do" or cobble together anything, if we need equipment or tools we are able to buy what is needed.

Way more info than you asked for but that's how we make money on bulls. I hope that answers any questions you may have.


Merry Christmas.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

65284 thanks for the input......merry christmas


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

myersfarm said:


> YOU have to keep in mind I raise dairy HEIFERS ..MOST PEOPLE CAN MAKE MONEY ON THEM if you can keep them alive
> Money is money but if you only raise BULLS lets say 10 and make $100 a piece which I fell would be real hard thats a $1000 is that money when you count your time fixing fence worring over a sick one...If you count everything inccluding the stuff you just happen to pick up with your pocket money it will not be anywere near that $1000
> If you can raise 5 and get your beef free most people raise those 5 sell 4 and eat the free one why so many people do it, but if those people raised a hundred they could not find a hundred people every year wanting a beef I guess the question is HOW MUCH is pretty good money...$20...$50..$100...$500... $750 or $1000 on each calf or the average on the herd of calfs from buying to selling I see holstiens bulls/steers selling at 300 lbs for $.60 a pound thats $180....buy them for $30 put in milk replacer at $50 thats leaves $100 now put on 200 pounds of meat for that $100 that does not includes grain you start them on or hay most people do not figure in the cost of GRASS...from taxes ,, fuel for the trator ,,fence repair it would be easier going to sale barn buy the 300 pounder and then take them up to 700 in a year sell then and eat your free one but you can make money on a few because you can get more money for them but HOW MANY people do you know buy a beef ever


Myersfarm, thank you so much for posting this. You have given me a lot to think about. Like I stated before, we are just starting out and really haven't considered some things. Not because of anything other than we are city people and are pretty ignorant when it comes to some farming things (ie all my questions which may sound silly to some). My husband and I are writing down all our expenses, but there will be some that we will have to write down as they produce themselves. We have read plenty of books and have friends who already do what we have planned to do and advise us, but there is nothing like real life experience (like a fence breaking and how many times that will happen in a month/year, the loss of an animal, etc....) that for some reason people do not think to put in a book for us newbies to consider. lol I really appreciate your frankness and sharing this information with us. We are also very lucky that naturally raised beef here sells for a lot more than .60#. From all we've calculated (including our time), I can't imagine selling that low.

Your information is very helpful and appreciated. For now we are not really in it to make us rich or make a living off of it tomorrow. It's more for us to slowly come to a place where we can pretty much raise and grow most of our food while selling whatever excess we have. Once we have that somewhere close to where we want it for our family and have too much excess to sell to just our friends and family, we do plan on joining our local CSA and other groups. We hope to acquire some sort of clientele through them. Not on a big scale, but enough to off set some of our expenses and put a little change in our pockets. We also will not only be selling beef. We also raise mini nubian goats, have chickens and eggs, a small vegetable garden and plan to add turkeys and pigs this Spring. All of this on a small scale and adding to it as needed. About our time, my husband is currently out there adding fences and digging snow away from the fence with our children who are homeschooled. They are working very hard, but at the same time giggling, having serious conversations, and spending more time with their parents than the average child in our country does in this day and age (sad to state). For this reason and this reason alone, our time spent working on our farm and with our animals is priceless. These will be amazing memories for our children and (I believe) teaching them very good work ethics. My son (through 4H) plans to start his own flock of meat sheep for his own "money".


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

jlgoinggreen 
Have your or your hubby read any of the long sticky above on rotational grazing?
IMO to make any money in a business that the buyer dictates the price and the seller buys retail the seller has to get control on his expenses somewhere. 80% of the cost of raising a beef animal is in feed. That is where the producer can gain an advantage. I sell into the feeder calf market. Minimizing the feed costs is where I make my money. Most feeder calf producers net 20% or less of the gross sale. I look to make an 80% return. My competitive advantage is low cost forage and I am the low cost producer. You need to concentrate on where your advantage may exist.


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> jlgoinggreen
> Have your or your hubby read any of the long sticky above on rotational grazing?
> IMO to make any money in a business that the buyer dictates the price and the seller buys retail the seller has to get control on his expenses somewhere. 80% of the cost of raising a beef animal is in feed. That is where the producer can gain an advantage. I sell into the feeder calf market. Minimizing the feed costs is where I make my money. Most feeder calf producers net 20% or less of the gross sale. I look to make an 80% return. My competitive advantage is low cost forage and I am the low cost producer. You need to concentrate on where your advantage may exist.


Thank you agmantoo. I am reading through it now and writing things to look up and questions to ask as I read. lol I'd like to do this for all my animals and I'm trying to figure out what would be healthiest for all, which animal should go first, etc.... We are also on our way to the library to get some books on it. Do you have any you would recommend?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

jlgoinggreen 

Other than the individuals on this forum, most people are trying to sell something. IMO their commercial interests get woven into the area of awareness/skill/experience and therein lies a conflict. I cannot recommend any individual or any books at this time. I just know somethings and am a master of nothing. My fees are zero and what you glean from me may be worth zero. However, I will answer your questions where I know something and will admit when I do not. You may have to tolerate my coarseness as I am a blunt person. I am not interested in a pen pal. If you are serious and dedicated to your project, I will spend as much time as necessary. You are welcome to visit my farm should you be in the area, western NC.


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## jlgoinggreen (Oct 4, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> jlgoinggreen
> 
> Other than the individuals on this forum, most people are trying to sell something. IMO their commercial interests get woven into the area of awareness/skill/experience and therein lies a conflict. I cannot recommend any individual or any books at this time. I just know somethings and am a master of nothing. My fees are zero and what you glean from me may be worth zero. However, I will answer your questions where I know something and will admit when I do not. You may have to tolerate my coarseness as I am a blunt person. I am not interested in a pen pal. If you are serious and dedicated to your project, I will spend as much time as necessary. You are welcome to visit my farm should you be in the area, western NC.


 Thank you. I honestly don't think anyone on here running a farm (especially with small children) has time to pen pal. lol I find myself writing two sentences before I have to pause to take care of one of my kids or animals before I get to complete my messages and clicking on submit. I do appreciate you sharing with me what you have learned through experience and do not mind your coarseness/bluntness and please forgive my ignorance as I learn. We sometimes wonder how many of the books we have read are written by someone in the city who has only "visited" farms and really does not have the experience of living on a farm. That is the reason I am so glad I found this forum and really have learned so much from all of you (especially in reading the stickys). Thank you.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Why do we do it when there's no money in it? 
Mostly for the feeling that we are "really" farming and to provide food for our families that we feel is safer than the stuff in the store. 
People can make a living raising dairy heifers, if they live in an area where there are dairies buying replacements and if they can keep them from dying.
Re-read the parts where I wrote "feel" and "if".
Back to the title of this thread. 
Yes, bulls are too dangerous for a small farm. Becides, there is no reason or justification for it. The cost for keeping a bull for just a few cows cannot be justified. Artificial insemination can provide superior calves.


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