# Question, for those who vaccinate at home.



## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

What would you recommend for the follow up shots, after giving Canine, Spectra 5 as the first shot to puppies? 

I gave my two pups their first vaccination shots on July 14th. At least, I'm pretty sure it was their first. They were left on the side of the road, and it just doesn't follow that someone who would incur the time and expense of first shots for a litter of 6, would then just turn around and dump them. I gave them Durvet, Canine Spectra 5. I noticed that it said on the pkg. that it's a good 'first shot' for puppies. 

Well, I'd like to get their doses for the second round. I'm going to TSC this weekend, plus there's a farm coop close by. So, I have options. I know it should be a combo shot, but I'm still learning here, having always gone to the vet in the past. TIA!

ETA: They were approx. 9 wks old when they got the first shot...best guess(?)


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## OakHollowBoers (Jun 26, 2013)

If over 20#, distemper, parvo, parainfluenza, adenovirus (hepatitis), leptospirosis (4 strains).
If under 20#, skip the leptospirosis until over 20#.

I can't keep track of the different brand names.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

Thanks, OakHollowBoers. That info's just fine. I don't really need brand names. Just figured it might be easier to google if I had them.  The info I was reading added the lepto shot at the 16 wks vaccination, but there was no mention of weight. Your info helps to fill in the blanks in my knowledge.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Keep them wormed also. Worms can kill puppies faster than viruses in some areas of the country.


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## OakHollowBoers (Jun 26, 2013)

The reason for waiting on the lepto is because it has the greatest chance of reaction (though still small) and mostly in the little dogs.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I use a different brand of vaccine than most, but if their first vaccine was at 9 weeks I'd do them again at 12 & 16 weeks with a distemper/parvo combo. Rabies at 6 months at a vet clinic (most states require vets to give rabies shots, you cannot give them yourself). If you feel that you need the lepto shot, make sure you give it by itself, at least 2 weeks between it & any other vaccine, to minimize the chance of reactions.

And I absolutely second getting them dewormed, stat. Safeguard for goats can be used for puppies, 1cc per 5 pounds of body weight. Ivermectin 1% for livestock can also be used ORALLY in puppies (do not inject it!!), the dosing for that is 1cc per 100 pounds (so for a 10-pound puppy, you'd give 0.1cc). Be careful with the ivermectin, if you give too much you can kill the pups . Use a 1-cc syringe from tractor supply to make sure you get the dosing right.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

Thanks y'all. I started their deworming sch. before they got the first vac. Just started the third rnd. of _that_ today; Safe-guard, fenbendazole, dosed by weight. 

The info about the lepto vac., re: weight, plus, about spreading the shots out and why is great! Based on the rate they've been growing, they should be just under 20# when they get the booster of Canine Spectra 5 on the 14th. That'll be the 2nd rnd. of their vac. sch. And, when they top 20#, they ought to drop right into the halfway point towards their 3rd vaccination. I'll give them the lepto vac. in that between time. The Canine Spectra 5 vaccinates against canine distemper, canine hepatitis, adenovirus cough (kennel cough), parainfluenza, and parvovirus.

Anyone have an opinion on the larger combo shots? Do you think they're _over_ vaccinations? I've read that some of the potential diseases they're supposed to protect against are low probability. That is, based on where you live, and your dog's environment. Me, I try to subscribe to KISS. At least, as often as possible, lol. But, I've also read that reactions to combo shots were more common with the earlier types (or maybe formulations). Even so, I'm still more comfortable with a no more than necessary approach. What do you think are the core vaccinations a dog should get?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

There's no such thing as over-vaccination (let the bashing begin!!!) Slight fever and other signs that the immune system is working hard are normal (because it is) and there is the occasional egg-protein allergy, which is really uncommon in dogs. 
The only danger in vaccinating puppies is if the puppy is already sick, it is best to let their little immune systems work on the underlying disease until it's gone, because already sick pups need all the help they can get

But to put it in perspective, in the average household, your pup's immune system is exposed to several hundred organisms a day. Adding a few more will not damage them, the system is designed to multitask.

And, as someone who has dealt with lepto, there is no vaccine reaction they could get that comes close to dealing with that disease. It has a high fatality rate and many nasty symptoms. And it can also be passed to your other livestock. Vaccinate for Lepto. Spread it out if you like, but vaccinate for it.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I have raised many many hound pups, and had a great dane kennel 8 years. I suggest 5 way at 6,8,10 weeks, again at 12 weeks too if there's risk of exposure to outside kennels etc, 7 way at 16 weeks and at again at a year, then a yearly booster. 7 way can cause issues with small dogs due to the leptos which is usually a STD but can be transmitted via most bodily fluids etc, but don't give it early. In some cases it can be skipped until a year old. 

I use safe guard horse wormer paste. It's fenbenizol?(Don't kick me over the spelling) and is safe for dogs. You can get it in many lables for dogs. However the horse paste is easy to give lasts longer and is cheaper.
I give a dime size glob at 2,4,6,8,10 weeks then monthly. 
At about the 10th month I rotate in Ivomec every 3 months. 
As note safe guard will get tape worms as well but you need to double the dose and give it three days in a row. 
And if you have fleas, you have the high potential for tape worms.
Rotating in Ivomec also keeps heartworms at bay and kills ticks and fleas etc.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I offer a word of caution on Ivomec.

Collies, some hearing breeds etc have a drug resistance gene issue that can cause neurological issues even death. It's rare but you should be aware. 

Another word of caution. If you have an adult dog with heartworms, a large does of Ivomec will kill them and could kill the dog as a result. Heartworms are best prevented but otherwise killed slowly.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Trying to be tactful but that is not my strong point. I would never buy vaccine from TSC or a coop. Vaccine is very temperature sensitive and I do not trust their handling of the product. I have always had a good relationship with my vet and I purchase all vaccine through his office. They do not do the shots or rather didn't when I have large numbers of dogs (I ran a rescue and also raised, showed and trained dogs) I could buy whole trays from him for less than I would pay at TSC or most wholesale places. 

I also never gave Lepto as part of combo shot but rather as a seperate shot. My vet would order this for me, I never had a reaction and after watching a dog die from Lepto I never let a dog leave without 2 shots for it. The Belgian Malinois puppy which I had sold and which died of Lepto did not live in the country, near the woods or anywhere you would think Lepto would rear it's head but rather in Detroit.

Now I just have two little dogs and one cat and they all go to see Dr. Buck for their shots. Just easier and really with only the three of them not expensive.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Interesting about lepto as a solo shot. I've always given the 5-way but my vet gives 4-way as the initial one. I'm pretty diligent about wormings too right on schedule. I always feel good when I do followup calls to pup customers who tell me they see no worms!
I have rough collies so the ivermectin point is a good one. Maybe as many as 20% can be reactive to that chemical.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I have a smooth collie that has one copy of the gene responsible for the reatcion to ivermection (and some other drugs). Her breeder told me she could react as much as if she had both genes, so I am very careful. I like Safeguard - fenbendazole - as a pretty safe wormer. 

As for vaccinosis, I believe it is real and have had experience with just that, so can't agree with Otter. Perhaps it is that I've raised many puppies in my days as a dog show breeder, perhaps I had a fault in my bloodline, I don't know. However, I decided at one point, many years ago, that I wanted to really be proactive about vaccinating my puppies in one litter and less lazy than I had been... I did several puppy vaccinations, according to the schedule being recommended at that time. When I took the lovely girl I kept in for her Rabies at six months, she had a very bad vaccine reaction. That was the only time that ever happened to me, I went back to a much more relaxed vaccination schedule after that and no more problems. 

Now I will say I live in a small isolated rural town and really don't vaccinate after a year old, except for Rabies. I've never had a pup (or adult dog for that matter) get sick with any of the diseases you vaccinate for. If I lived in a city, I might do things differently, but I did haul those puppies around for socialization and take dogs to dog shows for years. 

I don't do any of that any more, though my collie has had a litter for her breeder and will have another one - her puppies are brilliant, healthy, smart, sound, and beautiful. Her breeder is very reputable and does a great job. I only have this one because she broke her leg as a young pup (managed to get herself stepped on!) and moves a little off because of it. Tango's first litter is just over a year old and winning in the show ring and getting herding instinct titles. They will do obedience, tracking, herding, rally and agility before they are done. The sire is a Ch used as a service dog... lovely boy!


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

GrannyCarol said:


> I have a smooth collie that has one copy of the gene responsible for the reatcion to ivermection (and some other drugs). Her breeder told me she could react as much as if she had both genes, so I am very careful. I like Safeguard - fenbendazole - as a pretty safe wormer.
> 
> As for vaccinosis, I believe it is real and have had experience with just that, so can't agree with Otter. Perhaps it is that I've raised many puppies in my days as a dog show breeder, perhaps I had a fault in my bloodline, I don't know. However, I decided at one point, many years ago, that I wanted to really be proactive about vaccinating my puppies in one litter and less lazy than I had been... I did several puppy vaccinations, according to the schedule being recommended at that time. When I took the lovely girl I kept in for her Rabies at six months, she had a very bad vaccine reaction. That was the only time that ever happened to me, I went back to a much more relaxed vaccination schedule after that and no more problems.
> 
> ...


Any animal may have a vaccine reaction. People too for that matter. Yes, there may be a slightly increased chance with certain vaccines such as lepto, but as someone else said the reaction is usually nowhere near as severe as the disease. Also, one animal reacting one time is hardly significant. There are also precautions which may be taken prior to vaccinating that will lessen the severity or prevent any reaction. Of course you won't get a vaccine reaction if you don't vaccinate. Your dog won't get a food-borne illness if you don't feed it either, duh. 

If I were at a show with my dogs and I heard another exhibitor bragging about how she doesn't vaccinate her dogs you can bet that I'd raise a stink with show officials. I wonder if you made it known publicly when you were active? Have your own beliefs and treat your dogs any way you want, but don't put others at risk because of them. Ask some of the breeders who were around when parvo first struck and went through the shows in the 70's. The stories are terrible. They would have given anything for a treatment, let alone a cheap vaccine with a small risk of a reaction.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I was breeding and showing in the 70's. I did vaccinate, at times heavily, as I mentioned. I still give a series of puppy shots (or would if I had a puppy), but I wouldn't give as many as often as I used to. I remember when Parvo first became an issue. 

There are a lot of educated people that don't vaccinate much, the protocols given out by the vet schools call for a lot less vaccination than they used to, because current research shows that it isn't needed as much as many vets like to do it, the vaccinations last longer than a year or even two. I am not careless, I am thoughtful about my animal's health and the risks they face. Of course your mileage may vary. Many experienced breeders agree with me regarding adult dogs not needing many vaccinations. 

I know you are also experienced, I'm not really wanting to argue with you, or bash you, just stating my own experience and thoughts. I am quite sure that vaccinosis is real in both people and pets. I mentioned one personal experience, but have seen enough to convince me. One of my dear friends had a healthy talking two yr old son... shortly after one of his vaccinations, he changed dramatically and became autistic. There is a huge controversy over that possibility, but it was the one thing that changed in his life. I can't believe that a large number of vaccines given to puppies are good for them or healthy for the immune system, it just doesn't make sense. Like any thing you do to care for your pets, I believe it pays to be mindful of risk vs benefit.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

You almost had me agreeing to disagree, or even seeing some of your points, until the autism thing. Let's just say that if I heard Jenny McCarthy say that the sky is blue I would have to start questioning my understanding of blue. Besides, isn't 2 years about the time that they start being able to diagnose autism anyway? I think maybe it's 2 candles on a cake that causes autism.

Re:dogs, I agree that immunity is probably more long lasting and/or cumulative than currently accepted, but since there is no generally accepted science that proves it, I'm not too keen on accepting the risk across all species and especially for all diseases, especially after only one vaccine. For example, I have occasionally skipped a year in vaccinating my emus for EEE, which they are very sensitive to. The disease is present here in my town, others' emus have died from it. Mine have never. I doubt that it was just dumb luck, yet I would never recommend that someone else follow that example. The risk is all mine, and no one else's animals are at the slightest risk by my failure to vaccinate.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

re: the autism thing, I'm just stating my friend's experience. She had a healthy, normal boy that was interacting and starting to speak in sentences.... then she didn't. It's not like he was undiagnosed, he changed. I have no proof and I know that there is a lot of internet bs about it all, so while it matters to me, think what you will for yourself. 

To the best of my knowledge no one's dog (including my own) has gotten ill from my vaccination practices. I do recommend thoughtful puppy vaccines, particularly at least one after the pup is 12 weeks and about 16 weeks, when the maternal antibodies usually wear off. Also, by all means follow the laws regarding Rabies vaccinations. Interestingly, both of the dogs I have now come from breeders that do not vaccinate after they are a year old - long time professionals with more experience than my 40 years of breeding, showing and grooming. 

Still... depending on your situation and where you live and what is prevalent there, consult your vet and do what seems appropriate to you.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

That's crazy not to vaccinate until a year old! It wouldn't fly in certain parts of the country that is prevalent in terms of having parvo and distemper.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

If you are responding to me, please reread what I said, cuz that isn't it! 

I'm thinking thread drift is getting too far, sorry to the OP and I hope you got the information you needed.


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