# How long and how many do you think?



## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

We have a doe that is pregnant. We arent exactly sure when she is due and we also arent sure what she was bred by. We werent home when she got loose so she was either bred by a pgymy or a boer. Hopefully not the boer. 
Anyways she is a pygmy and she is absolutely huge.

What do you think?

















Some back end pics-


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Tonight. Three. Two does and a buck.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I say definately tonight too! Looks like labor has already started. I'm guessing triplets too, she is absolutely HUGE! Poor little thing I hope it wasn't the boer buck that got her!


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

I am gonna shock you all and say that the bubble has been there approx. one week. When she lays down, it pushes out some. Other than the bubble she has shown no signs at all of labor.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

Your doe is either in labor or she is prolapsing a bit. Hopefully, if it was the Boer buck she has three or four in there so they will be small enough to deliver.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I have never heard of them having that bubble like that for that length of time. I was thinking she was getting ready to bust.


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## catdance62 (Dec 7, 2008)

she looks like she has, or is in the process of, a prolapsed uterus. When was she in with the buck? If it's the boer, I don't know if she will be able to pass those kids. YOu may have to call the vet.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

When I first saw the pic I thought you were teasing us and that was a hoof. A week even I would would call the vet.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

Weird. What about a gentle vaginal check? Yall think thats in order? I would probably check her if she were mine, just gently to try to figure out the situation... 
Course I would be posting here asking what the heck it was!


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

As for her size, my son and I guess 2 babies. Good luck with that!!!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd say if she doesnt give birth in a day or so, she will die from being too full, or she will die from a prolapse


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Oh my  

Poor thing. I have never had a pygmy look near so large.
I am not sure if the prolapse, I'm assuming that it was the buldge must be, was something already there or from this pregnancy, and that aside, I would be sure to watch her and check on her often because I'm thinking a vet will end up being needed.

Do let us know how she does! How sad.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I'm thinking vet time, too.


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## Middle River (Apr 11, 2007)

I hope she goes soon, I would consider inducing her if she was mine. She is surely prolasping - and I belive it's a vaginal prolapse, not uterine ( uterine is the worst ). 

I've never had to deal with a prolapse, but I think i heard it's best if you can be there when she delivers to help not let the prolapse extend too far, to keep it clean, and assist in getting it back in after all kids are born-sometimes a vet is needed to suture it-if it were me i'd have my vet out. I'm pretty sure they can be genetic and due to too much pressure and I think you are not supposed to re-breed them again without a lot of thought.

Poor girl is just HUGE ! I think 3 kids, two bucks and a doe all pretty good size, born evening of 12/8.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Please let us know how she does. She's AWFULLY full. Good luck.

NeHi


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I think I'd be calling the vet at this point.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

She needs to see the vet.

Pygmies sometimes have a hard time passing their own kids. If there was any chance she got bred by a boer you really should've aborted the kids. 

If you value her life get her to the vet. I've lost a couple of pygmy does in the past because they couldn't birth their young, and they were bred by a pygmy buck.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

I would take her in to the vet for a sono and get their advice on delivery options


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Update us when you get the chance.


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## Carolyn (Jan 5, 2008)

My brother had pygmies and sometimes Heidi was actually wider than she was long, but would always have twins, couldn't walk sometimes. We lost one of Heidi's daughters when she was kidding, was her second kidding, kid was too big--I agree with the others--vet time.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I'm not quick to use a vet at all, but I'd be super worried about her. I also recommend a vet.


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## D Lynn (May 26, 2008)

Bumping and hoping everything os OK.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

I work at a vets office. I have told him about it and he says at this point to not worry about it too much. I have showed him these pics.He knows that there was a chance she was bred to a boer. He also says she should go soon. She didnt kid last night.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

That is great you work for a vet because you shouldn't have any problems getting him out quick if you need him. I am surprised he didn't seem worried, but maybe he doesn't deal with a lot of goats? But at any rate, at least he should be quick to help if you need him out.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Just don't let her sit and push, go in and check early so intervention can be done if needed.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

kierababy16 said:


> I work at a vets office. I have told him about it and he says at this point to not worry about it too much. I have showed him these pics.He knows that there was a chance she was bred to a boer. He also says she should go soon. She didnt kid last night.


Is the vet familiar with goats? Is he familiar with pygmies in specific? 
There aren't many vets who really know much about goats in this country.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Honestly I would be worried about that little girl if she were mine.

I wouldn't wait, if the vet thinks she's going to go within a day or so, he can give her a shot or perform a c-section, at least you would know when & know the vet is around. I'd like to think you'd get a good price since you work there.

I hope all works out as planned for both you and her.
HF


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Not normal, at all. Take her to the vet, make him look at her. If you trust him as a goat vet, that is. Looking at the pics, he should've known for ANY animal that if it was like that for a week, it is NOT NOT NOT normal. I've found that doing my own research about illnesses and diseases is much better than relying on a vet... Mine has killed one of my goats, and almost killed others. I now just call him for prescriptions.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I too vote vet. If you work for a pet vet then he might be comparing apples to oranges. 
I had a large animal vet and the only two things she knew and could harp on is CAE and CL, the lump turned out to be from a vaccine and I never used or trusted her again. 
I found a vet who has owned goats and has treated them for over 20 years. 

Pygmys can be pains in the butt to kid with pygmy kids due to the way they narrow in the back. Those are 2-4 pound kids. If she has one huge Boer buckling or a pair of 8 pound Boer twins she may not be able to pass those. that bubble sticking there for a week would scare me. I would have gloved up and gone in. Then if I cannot tell what I am feeling I call the vet. 

Good Luck I hope all goes well and that there is a trio in there of pygmys.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

Cliff said:


> Is the vet familiar with goats? Is he familiar with pygmies in specific?
> There aren't many vets who really know much about goats in this country.


He is the only goat vet in our part of the country. So he does know what he is talking about. He does know what he is doing and what he is talking about. Calling another vet is not possible because they will have no idea at all to what is going on. If anything, I should be able to get some oxytocin and induce her if he okays it.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

HappyFarmer said:


> Honestly I would be worried about that little girl if she were mine.
> 
> I wouldn't wait, if the vet thinks she's going to go within a day or so, he can give her a shot or perform a c-section, at least you would know when & know the vet is around. I'd like to think you'd get a good price since you work there.
> 
> ...


I do get a good price but as it is right now my bill is over $500. All of my animals seem to be having probs. right now. If it gets to the point where vet care is needed she will get it.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Meant to say earlier that if I had a boer buck I would be afraid to have pygmy does on the property.
We got rid of the pygmies a few yrs ago, only had them for 2 yrs. Their (normal) birthing problems are just too discouraging. They're such nice little goats, easy to get attached to. It's heartbreaking to see them die because they can't deliver.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

please, you do not use oxytocin to induce this doe. Oxytocin makes her push harder and if she is not fully dilated the uterus can rupture and she will bleed to death. if you want to induce (have a due date at all? ) you need lutalyse, 2cc im.
after she is fully dilated (need to check vaginally) and labor is very sluggish, that would be the time to give oxytocin. 

by the way she lokos, and the possibility she was bred to boer, i would not let her push but go for c-section. even if she was bred to a dwarf buck, pygmies are known for difficult labor.
will be very interesting to see the outcome of this.
good luck


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

We will not be getting a c-section. My mom will not pay for one and honestly I dont think our vet will do one. It is not that I dont want her to live and be taken care of, my hands are tied around my back money-wise.

She is oozing a bit today and the bubble has dissapeared.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Go in and check if she is in labor. If that was truly a bubble from birthing and not prolapse as it seemed, she has been in labor MUCH too long. In an attempt, if she is not dilated, you will be unable to go in and feel because the cervix will block you. Of course if that was not a birthing bubble, that means what was seen was likely a prolapse that was seen earlier which will likely worsen during labor. 

Either way I'd lute her at this point, then give oxytocin once she's dilated if she needs it. As stated, oxytocin will kill her if not given at the proper time.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

She's a very pretty girl.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

kierababy16 said:


> We will not be getting a c-section. My mom will not pay for one and honestly I dont think our vet will do one. It is not that I dont want her to live and be taken care of, my hands are tied around my back money-wise.
> 
> She is oozing a bit today and the bubble has dissapeared.


be prepared to put her down so she doesn't need to suffer.


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## MJFarms (Sep 20, 2008)

Just let her alone. I've had ewe's do that all the time. I lamb about near 40 head a year. Don't interfer till you have to. These things can straighten themselves out.


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## dm9960 (Nov 26, 2009)

I hope all works out well. I'm routing for her!


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

With tissue exposed and then retracted you are asking for infection.
The photos make it look dry like it has been exposed for a long time.
This is not healthy under any circumstance. 
Your vet is cavalier about goats as are most I have encountered. 
Goats are something you tie out to eat the fencerow and bbq on 4th of July.
Don't expect most of them to take goats seriously or value them as you do and learn to handle your own med crises. Watch her for temp and be ready with antibiotics. 
Best luck- looking for an update soon with healthy kids on the ground and mom hungry and full of milk.

B~


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

MJFarms said:


> Just let her alone. I've had ewe's do that all the time. I lamb about near 40 head a year. Don't interfer till you have to. These things can straighten themselves out.



yes normally it might straighten out with sheep. 
not with a dwarf goat bred to boer.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Oh my. I do hope it turns out well, but do be ready to have her put down because if there is oozing and such and nothing it happening, I can't imagine it working out in her favor and poor thing should suffer anymore. Hope for the best, but it the worst it what is to be, put her down ASAP.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

*HANG IN THERE!!!*:grouphug:


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Any news? I hope that this works out. I had a doe that had a similar "thing" showing and she delivered fine. However, she never conceived again. I didn't know what it was until this thread. It also did not look dry like that and only showed for a few days before delivery.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Looking forward to seeing those kids. Hope all goes well.
Nancy


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

I am bumping this! I once had a suffolk x ewe that did this and she had quads, there just wasn't enough room and so there was that bubble. The vet checked her and then she lambed like a week later. I would be ready to put her down if you can't spend the money on a c-section and do a quick post-mortem c-section. I lost a pygmy cross last year and she was bred to a Lamancha, and she couldn't deliver so I put her down myself and saved the babies. I hope all turns out well and she is just full of kids. Please let us know!


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Wow Kiera - anything?


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

Sorry I just checked on her a few mins. ago. No babies yet, I am defenitly thinking that she will go tonight, she is nesting and she will actually let me touch her teats without a fight. No more bubble out the back and also no more oozing at all. I wasnt able to get ahold of any lute otherwise I would induce her. Also whatever was sticking out was not dry at all. 

We are ready to put her down if we need to. She has gotten a little bit bigger than the pictures and I can tell she is getting closer.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Please let us know how she makes out. Crossing my fingers things work out well.
HF


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

I hope all works out for your doe. Please keep us updated.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

As soon as the heart of the does stops beating the oxygen to the babies will stop. If you deliver after the doe is dead you have to be FAST!

Good luck tonight! May she deliver soon and safely!


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## 3crow (Jul 10, 2008)

Good luck. I hope all goes well. 

I have a doe that I thought was going to go around Thanksgiving was showing all kinds of signs, except no bag just alittle pouching in the front of the udder. This her first time kidding, I have been told that sometimes they bag late. Anyways, I am still waiting too.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

I took some more pics a few minutes ago. I am uploading them right now. She defenitly looks like she is in labor. More nest spots since I last posted and she is breathing harder. She also just got some clear discharge, so things are moving along. 

Me and my mom were talking about when she was bred. We are almost positive that we still had the boer buck at the time she was bred but the more we think about it, the more we arent exactly sure. So hopefully we are wrong about him still being here when she was bred, because if he wasnt there isnt any other buck she could have been bred by except the pgymy.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

Here are the pictures I took:


































Sorry about the hay and shavings, she is in a heavily padded stall and she has been laying down.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yep, she's in labor.

Good luck!!!


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## freedomfrom4 (Jul 27, 2009)

Any news yet?


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

I am hoping that all turned out great and she had a litter!


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

Terri said:


> As soon as the heart of the does stops beating the oxygen to the babies will stop. If you deliver after the doe is dead you have to be FAST!
> 
> Good luck tonight! May she deliver soon and safely!


Terri,
You are so correct. I believe I had those babies out in 30 seconds after we put her down. They were weak but perked up after alot of rubbing and some tender care. This is a situation I hope to never ever repeat again!


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Any (hopefully) good news to report this morning?


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Bump. Curious to see how this turns out.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have news but it isnt the best. She went into labor when I last posted. At 8 I went out and checked on her. She was still in labor not quite all the way ready. I stayed out with her for 30 mins, she wasnt making any progress so I took a feel. I couldnt feel anything at all. About 30 mins later, I took another feel, this time I felt a bubble. Me having my hand in her actually made her contract more and it seemed to be helping with the delivering. 

So the bubble never really came out all the way, it popped and fluid shot all over the place. She wasnt pushing and she wasnt making any progress. I went in again to take a feel and I felt a tail. I personally have never delivered a baby goat, I knew immediately that the kid was breeched and I had to grab the legs and pull.It took quite a bit of pressure for me to get her out. Getting her front half out was the hardest. 

That kid was crying and raring to go. About 5 mins later, I look back and I see another bubble starting to come out. It came out quite a bit and then burst. Once again, no baby at all, I went in again this time to find a head. I couldnt find the front legs at first. I finally got ahold of the 2 front legs and started to pull. It wouldnt come. I worked on it for 2 hrs and I still couldnt get the baby out and by that time I knew that the baby had passed. We tried calling several vets but nobody would anwer. We finally had to make a decision and we just left her to do it on her own. It probaly wasnt the best, but by that time we were all extremely tired and frustrated. Not only could I not get this baby out but I felt another one in there. I honestly was expecting to find a dead doe this morning.

I go out there this morning and she is still alive. My mom called the vet and they took her in. I did not get to go but I was told that it took them a hr. to get the second baby out. The third came out fine, they were both stillborn. I was expecting that. All three of the babies were decent size, at this point I am not sure if the boer buck got her or the pygmy. My mom asked the vet about the sizes and she said that it is possible for a pygmy to have larger babies. 

So anyways, The first kid was a doe and we named her Faith. We kept her away from Mama last night. I milked 60 mls of colustrum out of our doe and we bottlefed her. She went to work with me and was taken care of by me and our staff. She is truly a miracle baby. Our doe is alive and doing well, her uterus was flushed out after they delivered the other 2 babies and she will be on penicillin for 3 days. 

I do have a few questions- Where Do I give the penicillin, the prescription says Im but im not sure what muscle?
Also What can I do to help Momma accept the baby now?


Pics will be up in a few.


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## eross230 (Apr 28, 2006)

Wow! Rough night for you and your Mom. I'm glad everything turned out pretty well and the doe is in good shape. Will you take a picture of Faith?


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have a few pics that I am trying to upload right now.


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

Here are the pics. The first few are from right after she was born.

































These are from today-


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

Oh dear soooooooooooooooooo cute!!!!


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Wow, rough night for you and the doe. I'm glad she got at least ONE live one to take care of. Had the same type of situation here, and I know how exhausted everyone must be. ((hugs all 'round))

NeHi


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## eross230 (Apr 28, 2006)

She's awesome! Congratulations.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Have you tried to give the baby to mom to see if she'll take it?
From the initial pics I'd guess papa was the boer. What color were the others?
I'm glad to see the little goat lived thru the awful delivery.
Sorry you had to suffer thru it too.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

that looks like a boer cross!!! Too cute.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

That's a boer baby. Coloration is pygmy but the pattern is pretty much definite boer. Sounds like the boer buck was around. 

Yes, pygmies CAN kid fine from being bred to full size. However, it's unlikely. Especially boer crossed. Glad she had one survivor!


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

penicillin is given sc and just over her ribcage is fine. make sure to pull the plunger back that you didn't hit a blood vessel or you are risking her going into shock.
you need to give at least five better ten days. 
congratulation and lucky your doe carried trippleds or the outcome would have been grim.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I am so happy you got your little doeling.try and see if momma will nurse her. I had a lil buck that I had to bring in for quite some time. I kept the momma and baby bond by visits during the day. I put mom on the stand and had baby nurse. eventually she accepted him back...


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

That was probably the best outcome possible, and so congrats on the ONE very cute little doeling. I hope the mother will accept her. You might have to hold her to let her let the doeling nurse. I've had that happen, but congrats on a fairly good outcome.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

lasergrl said:


> that looks like a boer cross!!! Too cute.


Im not too sure that she is a boer cross



mygoat said:


> That's a boer baby. Coloration is pygmy but the pattern is pretty much definite boer. Sounds like the boer buck was around.
> 
> Yes, pygmies CAN kid fine from being bred to full size. However, it's unlikely. Especially boer crossed. Glad she had one survivor!


 She looks very much like her mom did when we got her. She was about this same color just with a stripe down her back. The other 2 were 2 different colors, one was black with stripes on it like the pygmy buck and the other was brown like the doe. I wonder if goats are bred by multiple bucks if the kids could have different sires? I know it is like that with dogs and cats.



susanne said:


> penicillin is given sc and just over her ribcage is fine. make sure to pull the plunger back that you didn't hit a blood vessel or you are risking her going into shock.
> you need to give at least five better ten days.
> congratulation and lucky your doe carried trippleds or the outcome would have been grim.


Hmmm, It says IM on the bottle and on the prescription. I know how to give shots and everything I do that on a daily basis. I probaly will keep her on the pen a little bit longer because of everything that happened. 



lamoncha lover said:


> I am so happy you got your little doeling.try and see if momma will nurse her. I had a lil buck that I had to bring in for quite some time. I kept the momma and baby bond by visits during the day. I put mom on the stand and had baby nurse. eventually she accepted him back...


Right now we are having a hard time with the doe accepting her back, The doe is still very sore and doesnt really want the baby back by her teats. 



deineria said:


> That was probably the best outcome possible, and so congrats on the ONE very cute little doeling. I hope the mother will accept her. You might have to hold her to let her let the doeling nurse. I've had that happen, but congrats on a fairly good outcome.


Yea it was. It was killing me when I couldnt get that baby out last night. I knew I only had a certain amount of time. I got the doeling out within 10 mins after the sack broke. I just knew when I passed that mark with the second one, it wouldnt make it. I could feel another one in there and I assumed that one probaly wouldnt make it. 

I was a little worried at first about the colustrum issue as the doeling didnt get a chance to nurse after she was born. I did milk the doe and I got about 60cc's of colostrum out. I fed it to her but Im not sure it was enough. What should we be feeding her when she isnt on mom?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What should we be feeding her when she isnt on mom?


It will be best if you can keep milking her. 
They need to be back together ASAP

I always give IM shots in the meatiest part of the rear leg


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I would do my very best to milk to mom if she will not allow the doeling to nurse. As a last resort, you can offer whole cow's milk, but I would try to milk to mom or make her allow the baby to nurse.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

i have had does with difficult deliverys before and the pain seems to make them not want anything to do with the kid, its possible though to get them over this, pen them in a stall togather and watch, hold the doe every so often so the baby can nurse, a few days of this should bond them as much as they can be bonded, 

yes its possible that if two bucks bred the doe while in heat that both bucks can be the father, the fact that they are faternal triplets means they are from three differint eggs, each egg fertilized by a differint sperm, 

white body colord head is a boer trade mark, if she grows up to have a roman nose and flopy or air plain ears you will know for sure,


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

the reason to give penicillin sc to goats is because of their fast metabolism. this way it will stay longer in the system. 
there is also much less risk hitting a blood vessel and sending her into shock. 
penicillin is given at least seven days to prevent building up resistant of certain bacteria strains. if you stop too early ad she get sick, penicillin will not work for her ever.
instruction on the bottle is for cattle?


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

Her dam's milk is the best for her, but the most important thing is that she receive enough to eat. If she is needing more to eat, whole cow's milk should work for her. More colostrum would have been better, but if she's pooping ok, it did the trick to clean out the meconium. She should have gotten some immunity from mom with what you fed. I feel so bad that there is no vet available at night for emergencies. Mine came into the office after hours when I had a difficult labor.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

I believe if your antibiotic is just straight up penicillin (and if you really are suppose to give it IM) it doesn't matter where you give it. Penicillin is a general antibiotic it goes where it is needed no matter where. I say this because there are antibiotic's that are body area/part specific. Now addressing the SC/IM ... I honestly don't remember ever giving antibiotic's IM it was always SC in all the years I worked at a Veterinarian hospital you might want to double check that script. You have the right to double check because mistake's can happen. Believe me my mother's dog is on phenobarbital for epilepsy(34.5mg tablets 1/2 tablet twice a day), she got the script filled one time and I saw the pills in the bottle they were the 100mg tablets! Thank god I caught it before she had given them to her dog. And yes the vet clinic had a new person there filling scripts... so if in doubt, question it!!


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

On another note I showed my daughter's the birthing pictures of your new baby, I thought they were really cool and the baby is just adorable. My daughter's didn't like the first 2 pics they thought it was "ewwww" so guess neither of them are going to follow in mom's footsteps. Congrats on the new baby and am glad to hear that mom is ok...though now I am worried cause one of my doe's is a pygmy and pregnant and you all freaked me out about pygmy's birthing!


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

Well I finally got her to nurse off mom. Mom is still sore but she is allowing it.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

And that's one of the reasons I don't have little goats, I don't think my hands would ever fit. 

Glad she and one of the babies are ok.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Speaking of EWWW- just a tiny tip for the next time...
Grab an empty feed sack and put it under the business end of the doe.
The kid stays cleaner and less cleanup after the fact. 
Glad she is nursing- she looks plenty spunky. 
B~


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Congrats! The baby is darling! I'm sorry you amd mama goat had to go through such an ordeal...yikes! Some preparation H would be good for the pain on her hoo-hoo. Thanks for posting the pic...what a doll


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## xoxoGOATSxoxo (Jul 29, 2006)

Congratulations on the lovely little doe! Are you going to keep her? You should! Sorry about the other ones, though, but its great that mama is ok!  When I was reading this thread, I was sure it was going to end badly.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

She is a darling little doeling! Glad Momma and baby are well, sorry about the others.


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## 3crow (Jul 10, 2008)

Congrats on Faith, she is precious. I am also glad your doe made it through the whole thing, she is a tough little cookie. I am so glad to hear mom is nursing her after everything she has been though. 

I am sorry for your loss of the other two babies.


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## ACountryMomma (Aug 10, 2008)

What a cutie! So glad to see momma is letting her nurse now.

We give pen SQ in the skin around the shoulders (yes on the bottle it says IM, but that is not what we do), but if I were told by a goat knowledgable vet specifically to give it IM I'd give it in the thick part of the ham/rump area.


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## garyh141 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not trying to start an argument and I know that everyone has a different opinion on things, but NEVER give a goat a shot IM. Believe me it can very easily send them into shock. Goats have too fast of a metabolism for IM shots. I lost one about a year ago because a vet give her a shot IM. She went into shock within about an hour and I didn't have any epinephin or benidryl to give her. Even with SQ you still run a slight chance of it if you hit a blod vessel but the chances are much less than IM.
Again it's just my opinion, but it is based on experience.


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## xoxoGOATSxoxo (Jul 29, 2006)

I think an IM shot can send any animal into shock. 

I've given lots of IM shots to my goats. Never had a problem. I always pull the plunger out a bit first to make sure its not in a blood vessel. :shrug: If it is, give it somewhere else. 

Maybe someone else here will know for sure if goats are more susceptible to shock from IM injections.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

kierababy16 said:


> Once again, no baby at all, I went in again this time to find a head. I couldnt find the front legs at first. I finally got ahold of the 2 front legs and started to pull. It wouldnt come. I worked on it for 2 hrs and I still couldnt get the baby out and by that time I knew that the baby had passed. We tried calling several vets but nobody would anwer. We finally had to make a decision and we just left her to do it on her own. It probaly wasnt the best, but by that time we were all extremely tired and frustrated. Not only could I not get this baby out but I felt another one in there. I honestly was expecting to find a dead doe this morning.


I'm sorry, but you left her to die? You decided that you were too tired and frustrated and you walked out of that barn and left her lying there in pain with two dead babies inside her and you went inside and went to sleep? Knowing that she was out there. Possibly slowly dieing? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that. If you no longer want to continue trying, then fine. But at least put the poor animal down. Don't leave her out there to suffer like that. I know the out come is that she is alive and she has a baby. But when you walked out of that barn, you expected her to be dead in the morning. I just don't how you can leave an animal to suffer.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

lilprairiemutt said:


> I'm sorry, but you left her to die? You decided that you were too tired and frustrated and you walked out of that barn and left her lying there in pain with two dead babies inside her and you went inside and went to sleep? Knowing that she was out there. Possibly slowly dieing? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that. If you no longer want to continue trying, then fine. But at least put the poor animal down. Don't leave her out there to suffer like that. I know the out come is that she is alive and she has a baby. But when you walked out of that barn, you expected her to be dead in the morning. I just don't how you can leave an animal to suffer.


It wasnt my choice. If I could I would have stayed out there all night trying. Do not go off on me, My family chose what they thought was right, It all worked out in the end and I will not put up with this at all.

I am a veterinary technician, I do not like animals suffering at all. Like I said do not act like that. I said when I posted that it was something I didnt want to do. It wasnt my choice and Im not going to deal with you. It wasnt my fault and I did all that I could while I was out there to get that baby out. I didnt know she had 2 babies in her at the time, I had a feeling that there might be 2 but their wasnt. I didnt expect her to be alive in the morning and I feel bad that I thought that. Going off on me now is not going to change the situation at all.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

lilprairiemutt said:


> I'm sorry, but you left her to die? You decided that you were too tired and frustrated and you walked out of that barn and left her lying there in pain with two dead babies inside her and you went inside and went to sleep? Knowing that she was out there. Possibly slowly dieing? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that. If you no longer want to continue trying, then fine. But at least put the poor animal down. Don't leave her out there to suffer like that. I know the out come is that she is alive and she has a baby. But when you walked out of that barn, you expected her to be dead in the morning. I just don't how you can leave an animal to suffer.


i very much agree with you. it was a very bad choice this family made.
as a tech vet, she should have know better.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

kierababy16 said:


> It wasnt my choice. If I could I would have stayed out there all night trying. Do not go off on me, My family chose what they thought was right, It all worked out in the end and I will not put up with this at all.
> 
> I am a veterinary technician, I do not like animals suffering at all. Like I said do not act like that. I said when I posted that it was something I didnt want to do. It wasnt my choice and Im not going to deal with you. It wasnt my fault and I did all that I could while I was out there to get that baby out. I didnt know she had 2 babies in her at the time, I had a feeling that there might be 2 but their wasnt. I didnt expect her to be alive in the morning and I feel bad that I thought that. Going off on me now is not going to change the situation at all.


yes, when you left her, this was your choice. you could have stayed with her until she either had her kids or put her down. if you would have been just a school girl(that was my assumption) i could have understand a little bit, but you are a vet tech????? shame on you.


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

In the end it doesnt really matter what you guys say, it has been done and she is alive. No use looking back on what is done. 

I am not a registered vet tech but I do most of the same things a rvt does. Also considering the fact that I am only 17, might change some things.


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## Middle River (Apr 11, 2007)

lilprairiemutt said:


> I'm sorry, but you left her to die? You decided that you were too tired and frustrated and you walked out of that barn and left her lying there in pain with two dead babies inside her and you went inside and went to sleep? Knowing that she was out there. Possibly slowly dieing? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that. If you no longer want to continue trying, then fine. But at least put the poor animal down. Don't leave her out there to suffer like that. I know the out come is that she is alive and she has a baby. But when you walked out of that barn, you expected her to be dead in the morning. I just don't how you can leave an animal to suffer.


Ok, so I deleted what I was going to post...

But I still have to say, bottom line is you walked away. There is NO excuse for that - especially since you are a vet tech you should know even better. I too am a vet tech and would NEVER let anybody do that - a stranger or my grandma - I would force the issue or call somebody that could. Shame on you, this was selfish and lazy and she is the one that had to pay for it. Maybe not with her life like you thought she was going to, but still with a ton of un-needed misery and 2 dead kids. 

I am glad that the she and doeling survived. I hope she recovers with speed. That doeling is sired by the Boer no doubt, and sure is a cute little thing.


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## Middle River (Apr 11, 2007)

kierababy16 said:


> In the end it doesnt really matter what you guys say, it has been done and she is alive. No use looking back on what is done.
> 
> I am not a registered vet tech but I do most of the same things a rvt does. Also considering the fact that I am only 17, might change some things.


So sad that it doesn't matter to you. You are not a vet tech - doing some of the things one does doesn't make you one and you surely don't think or act like one either. I hope you at least learned something from this.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

It may have turned out alright as far as her being alive now. But look what she went through while she waited for you to come back to her. How would you feel if you were in labor and the baby wasn't coming and the doctor got tired and gave up and walked out? If you had posted on a dog forum that you had a dog and a puppy was stuck so you just left her there expecting to find her dead, you would have got the same reaction from other board members. Or any animal board for that matter. 

You had ample warning that this delivery might be a train wreck. The minute you thought she could have been bred by a boer you should have aborted the babies or been saving for a c section. You said at one point you were prepared to put her down and yet you didn't. You walked away to let her die. You didn't do everything you could have for this poor doe. Not by a long shot. If you are old enough to be a vet tech (even and unlicensensed one) you are old enough to make a decision to stay and with and help that goat.

I too hope you learned something from this. You are young. Old enough to know better really but young none the less.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

kierababy16 said:


> Also considering the fact that I am only 17, might change some things.



no, it doesn't. what you did was animal cruelty. 

if you go back and read all the posts, there were a couple of people that advised you to be repaired and put her down, and still you turned your back and let her suffer. 
you don't need to come here and defend yourself. you need to go in your room and really think about what you did. only then can you hopefully see and learn. and hopefully you will never turn around and let an animal in your care suffer again.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree what happened was wrong in just leaving her to just do it on her own.
HOWEVER I dont just blame her, she is after all a minor and we werent there to know what her parents may or may not have said for her to do. She could have been told to go in by her parents, not wanting her to watch this goat die, who really knows?
NOT that I think this correct at all just saying she probably isnt the sole person responsible for the decision.
HOPEFULLY the entire family has thought this scenario through, maybe she can advise the rest of her family that this type of behavior is unacceptable?


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

I agree with ShyAnne. It sounds to me like her parents were guiding her in this. I would never leave a goat in this type of situation, but I'm an adult. I'm hoping the parents will realize that if they are going to have animals for their children, they should provide the same type of responsible medical care for them as they would for the kids.


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

OK! After reading about the whole situation I have to say shame on the people on this forum for putting the poor kid down. She is a minor..hence 17 years old. While I completely disagree with leaving the goat in that condition overnight she had no choice obviously, her parents are the ones who made the choice for her as they are the ones who pay the vet bill or would have bought the bullet to put the goat down. This forum is supposed to be a place where people can come and ask questions and hopefully get some sort of answer from other people who raise goats. This is not a place where a person should have to defend themself because others disagree with what they have done. I am disappointed in the people who attacked her. And I am one of the people who told her to prepare to put her down if they wouldn't do a c-section. 

I would like to tell Kiera that I am glad that the doe made it through a night of misery and that she got a healthy baby from the whole situation. I do have to agree that if in the future you have doubts as to who bred a doe, lute her and take away that wonder.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

17 is more than old enough to stand up for what is right. If she had pushed it with her parents, she would have said so. She would have said, she pushed her parents to help the goat, that she did everything she could to get them to either continue to help or put the goat down.


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

I am not going say shame on you.. I am glad that your doe had a baby but still I will NEVER ever leave the baby in her all night. I cant do that. It is not good because it will kill the mother.. You are very lucky that your doe is alive..


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## garyh141 (Mar 7, 2008)

We have nigerians and have a little buckling born this past week that looks just like him. And we don't have boer goats anywhere close to us, just nigerians! I'd upload a pic, but not sure how.
(Sandra)


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## mosepijo (Oct 21, 2008)

Well this is the last time kierababy16 will probably come on and ask for advise. I am sure she feels bad enough. Its just so hard to be perfect at 17 years.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Well, clearly leaving the doe was not the best choice, and it is not something I would ever had done, but honestly, it sounded like her parents, who obviously would have been paying, weren't interested in doing much to help the goat, and I can see at 17 that she might have hoped the goat would be alive the next morning and delivered and such. It would have been hard for me at 17 and no way to get a vet out to say put the goat out of its misery because I'd have hoped she would go on to deliver and make it. . . 
Granted, I would have stayed with the goat, but it wouldn't have been any help had this girl have stayed there, it doesn't sound like. If she couldn't get a vet and no adult there was willing to put the goat down, which they obviously weren't, then sitting there with the goat, though it sounds helpful, wouldn't have been.
I do think, considering, it seems a fair turn out, and let us hope she learned A GREAT deal from this, and let us hope her parents do not own goats on their own. . .they are greatly to blame.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

lilprairiemutt said:


> 17 is more than old enough to stand up for what is right. If she had pushed it with her parents, she would have said so. She would have said, she pushed her parents to help the goat, that she did everything she could to get them to either continue to help or put the goat down.


Lilprairiemutt, Not all kids push their parents. WE WERE NOT THERE. Over and over she says "we". She stated that they tried to call several vets, to no avail. 
And a 17 yr old girl can say she is ready to put down her goat, but to actually do it is a different story, and with a promise of a vet visit in a few hours...
Sometimes choices are not clear black and white. And in the long run, the choice was right, the doe is alive and so is one kid. 

Again not condoning leaving the doe. Just stating we were not there and we dont know the entire situation. We dont know exactly what went on.


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## waygr00vy (Aug 7, 2005)

Kiera, glad everything ended up working out ok and doe and doeling are doing ok. I know it is terribly hard to make that decision about putting a doe down in this type of situation. I had a ND doe kid last spring and she was bred to a ND buck. She was huge, and i was really hoping she had several in there. It ended up being one huge doeling. She went in to labor and all seemed to be going well, I saw the tips of the hooves come out then nothing. Went in to check and while everything was coming out in the right order, there was absolutely no room for her to get that kid out. I tried positioning and pulling for HOURS, meanwhile trying to get a hold of a vet (it was a sunday). At a few points I thought the kid is obviously dead at this point, I am going to pull her out even if it is in pieces and hopefully save the doe. Well there was just no way it was coming out, so we made the decision to put down the doe and do an c-section in the field just in case there was another in there. After 4 1/2 hours of that kid with her front hooves sticking out of mama and she was ALIVE!! And the only one. It was sad to put down the doe but we would have lost both if we hadn't and I was just amazed as I thought for sure the kid was dead. My husband wasn't home and had the key to his gun lock or we would have ended her suffering earlier but at least we saved the doeling.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

ShyAnne said:


> Lilprairiemutt, Not all kids push their parents. WE WERE NOT THERE. Over and over she says "we". She stated that they tried to call several vets, to no avail.
> And a 17 yr old girl can say she is ready to put down her goat, but to actually do it is a different story, and with a promise of a vet visit in a few hours...
> Sometimes choices are not clear black and white. And in the long run, the choice was right, the doe is alive and so is one kid.
> 
> Again not condoning leaving the doe. Just stating we were not there and we dont know the entire situation. We dont know exactly what went on.


Very good post Shyanne. I am astounded at the "shame" being tossed around here. I am hoping it is a result of holiday stress and not going to be the norm here.  If the op learned anything, it was not to give out too much information that can be judged on a forum.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

(Very good post Shyanne. )
This is a quote I really love
"_We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us" __-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Marcel Proust_

People can tell you what you should or should not do or what *they* would or would not do in the same situation, but in truth when something _really_ happens its a whole different ballgame. 

*Kierababy16* -at 17 I knew you could not be a RVT  I just hope that you stick it out and do go to Vet Tech school and get your registration, it is an exciting field to work in but you will never make decent money to support yourself until you become registered.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

wintrrwolf said:


> (Very good post Shyanne. )
> This is a quote I really love
> "_We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us" __-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Marcel Proust_
> 
> ...


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

ShyAnne said:


> Lilprairiemutt, Not all kids push their parents. WE WERE NOT THERE. Over and over she says "we". She stated that they tried to call several vets, to no avail.
> And a 17 yr old girl can say she is ready to put down her goat, but to actually do it is a different story, and with a promise of a vet visit in a few hours...
> Sometimes choices are not clear black and white. And in the long run, the choice was right, the doe is alive and so is one kid.
> 
> Again not condoning leaving the doe. Just stating we were not there and we dont know the entire situation. We dont know exactly what went on.


There was no promise of a vet visit ina few hours because the expected to find the doe DEAD in the morning. Even my ten year old would argue with me if I tried to walk out and leave an animal to suffer like that. This girl didn't come here asking for advice and in fact ignored every piece of advice offered. She never said anything about feeling awful about how this poor doe had to suffer. In fact she showed a rather indifferent attitude about it. What happened with that goat was animal abuse pure and simple and don't feel bad about saying so.

But since it is acceptable to leave a doe like that as long as you are under the age of eighteen, then I wash my hands of it.


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## xoxoGOATSxoxo (Jul 29, 2006)

How are mama and baby today, Kierababy16? Still doing ok I hope?


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## freedomfrom4 (Jul 27, 2009)

So the people in 3rd world country who have a baby stuck should be put down when no doctor is avaliable huh?
Your logic is impresive.
In the hospital people die without us putting them down.
Maybe some pain meds were in order, but it was her decision about what to do with her doe.


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## Cece (Nov 7, 2009)

Whoa. I am shocked at what I am reading. I am cannot believe the flaming going on here. I thought this was a civil forum. I can tell you this, at 17 years old, my parents were in control. Period. You may not agree with what was done, but that does not change the fact that it is already done. You cannot change anything. May I suggest we try to change how we respond to something like, next time try this, or if you are in this situation again may I suggest whatever.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I think Kiera learned from this experience. She seemed unconcerned at the time of the op, probably just from inexperience. She seemed to slowly realize why we were concerned, and she's seen the bad outcome of the event. Nobody who has ever tried to pull a baby that's too big to come out will ever forget it. She also now realizes the outcome could've been much worse. 

I'm not condoning anything that happened, from the breeding on. I indicated such in my posts. But have none of you had to learn by screwing up? Did you know everything when you were 17? Has nobody or no thing ever had to suffer from a mistake you made? Ever? I know I was in total la la land when I was her age, she seems pretty well grounded.

Get off her back, she learned from it and can't do anything to change it now.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

kierababy16 said:


> That kid was crying and raring to go. About 5 mins later, I look back and I see another bubble starting to come out. It came out quite a bit and then burst. Once again, no baby at all, I went in again this time to find a head. I couldnt find the front legs at first. I finally got ahold of the 2 front legs and started to pull. It wouldnt come. I worked on it for 2 hrs and I still couldnt get the baby out and by that time I knew that the baby had passed. We tried calling several vets but nobody would anwer. We finally had to make a decision and we just left her to do it on her own. It probaly wasnt the best, but by that time we were all extremely tired and frustrated. Not only could I not get this baby out but I felt another one in there. I honestly was expecting to find a dead doe this morning.
> 
> I go out there this morning and she is still alive. My mom called the vet and they took her in. I did not get to go but I was told that it took them a hr. to get the second baby out. The third came out fine, they were both stillborn. I was expecting that. All three of the babies were decent size, at this point I am not sure if the boer buck got her or the pygmy. My mom asked the vet about the sizes and she said that it is possible for a pygmy to have larger babies.


Umm, how do you know they didn*promise* her they would take the doe in to see a vet in the am? 
They tried to call that night and when there was no one available they did call and go in in the am.She said she expected to see the doe dead the next am.( when she checked on it)Not that she left it to die purposely the night before.

What else could she have done? She worked for 2 hrs, she didnt have experience as she stated that it was her first time to deliver a goat. No vets available. Just shoot her? When option B is to take her to the vet in the am IF she makes it. 
IF she had pain meds I am sure she would have given them. Maybe she did, who knows , we werent there.

My point is dont assume what was said and done when you werent there firsthand. 

Very good point cliff.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Also, I know many a woman who has been in labor for 24 hours and pushed for hours and hours. . .I know I was personally in hard labor for 16 hours with my first, so I can easily see a younger person thinking it might work out.
Just something to consider. . .


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Ok, so I deleted what I was going to post...
> 
> But I still have to say, bottom line is you walked away. There is NO excuse for that - especially since you are a vet tech you should know even better. I too am a vet tech and would NEVER let anybody do that - a stranger or my grandma - I would force the issue or call somebody that could. Shame on you, this was selfish and lazy and she is the one that had to pay for it. Maybe not with her life like you thought she was going to, but still with a ton of un-needed misery and 2 dead kids.
> 
> I am glad that the she and doeling survived. I hope she recovers with speed. That doeling is sired by the Boer no doubt, and sure is a cute little thing.


Yes I did walk away when I should have stayed. But even if I would have stayed with her trying all night to get those babies out and I couldnt would the outcome be any different than it is now? Call me selfish and lazy whatever but I am not. If I didnt care about this goat at all, I wouldnt have stayed out there for as long as I could trying to get those ---- babies out. That was something I have never done before and I was pretty much going in there blindly. 



> So sad that it doesn't matter to you. You are not a vet tech - doing some of the things one does doesn't make you one and you surely don't think or act like one either. I hope you at least learned something from this.


No i said that it doesnt matter how you guys disagree now. We did what we thought was right at the time. Bad choice, sure but that is no way going to change the outcome now. Blaming me for it now is not going to change anything. Actually just because someone isnt a RVT, that doesnt make them not a tech. Where I work you dont have to be registered to be a tech., the difference between the 2 is one makes more money.

How do you know I think? This was a bad situation, things should have been done differently. Dont you dare assume things about me when you have no idea. 




> It may have turned out alright as far as her being alive now. But look what she went through while she waited for you to come back to her. How would you feel if you were in labor and the baby wasn't coming and the doctor got tired and gave up and walked out? If you had posted on a dog forum that you had a dog and a puppy was stuck so you just left her there expecting to find her dead, you would have got the same reaction from other board members. Or any animal board for that matter.
> 
> You had ample warning that this delivery might be a train wreck. The minute you thought she could have been bred by a boer you should have aborted the babies or been saving for a c section. You said at one point you were prepared to put her down and yet you didn't. You walked away to let her die. You didn't do everything you could have for this poor doe. Not by a long shot. If you are old enough to be a vet tech (even and unlicensensed one) you are old enough to make a decision to stay and with and help that goat.
> 
> I too hope you learned something from this. You are young. Old enough to know better really but young none the less.


Me being there would not have changed the situation at all. The outcome would have still been the same. 

Maybe we should have aborted her, we didnt and nothing is going to change that now. We honestly didnt think that she was bred when we found her in the pen. We didnt think about it until she really started showing and we knew for sure that she had been bred. I cant just abort those babies when they would have had a fighting chance at living. I have a problem with that and there is no way in hell. I could just abort living things.

I said that I was prepared to put her down if needed and I was. I was not allowed to put her down, otherwise she would be gone now. I did not want her to suffer and I did not want her to be out there all night with the babies in her. 



> no, it doesn't. what you did was animal cruelty.
> 
> if you go back and read all the posts, there were a couple of people that advised you to be repaired and put her down, and still you turned your back and let her suffer.
> you don't need to come here and defend yourself. you need to go in your room and really think about what you did. only then can you hopefully see and learn. and hopefully you will never turn around and let an animal in your care suffer again.


Dont you dare say what I did was animal cruelty. I take ---- good care of my animals. I have had to take care of some severe injuries on my horses in the last year, If i am such a cruel person for letting a goat deliver on my own, then my horses would not be healed like they are. 
Do not tell me what to do, I do not appreciate it at all. You werent there, you dont know what went on and you dont know how you would have reacted in the same situation if it was your first time. 



> 17 is more than old enough to stand up for what is right. If she had pushed it with her parents, she would have said so. She would have said, she pushed her parents to help the goat, that she did everything she could to get them to either continue to help or put the goat down.


Just because I didnt say that I pushed it with my parents, doesnt mean that I didnt. Do not assume that I would have said anything, obviously I need to watch what I write on here because some people will obviously take it a different way.


> We have nigerians and have a little buckling born this past week that looks just like him. And we don't have boer goats anywhere close to us, just nigerians! I'd upload a pic, but not sure how.


I talked to the lady I got the pygymy buck from and she told me that the bucks sire looked exactly like this little doeling looks like right now. She is tiny. The vet did say that even if a pygmy was bred to a another pygmy they can still have larger babies.



> Kierababy16 -at 17 I knew you could not be a RVT I just hope that you stick it out and do go to Vet Tech school and get your registration, it is an exciting field to work in but you will never make decent money to support yourself until you become registered.


Nope I am not a RVT. I am a tech though, I do have experience. The only difference is money and I am planning on going to school next semester. 



> There was no promise of a vet visit ina few hours because the expected to find the doe DEAD in the morning. Even my ten year old would argue with me if I tried to walk out and leave an animal to suffer like that. This girl didn't come here asking for advice and in fact ignored every piece of advice offered. She never said anything about feeling awful about how this poor doe had to suffer. In fact she showed a rather indifferent attitude about it. What happened with that goat was animal abuse pure and simple and don't feel bad about saying so.
> 
> But since it is acceptable to leave a doe like that as long as you are under the age of eighteen, then I wash my hands of it.


How do you know that there wasnt a promise of a vet in the morning? Maybe I didnt mention that. Dont assume that you know everything.

Dont even say that I ignored all the advice on here. I talked to my vet and followed everybodys advice. Just because you dont agree with what happened that doesnt mean you need to act the way you are. It is kinda ridiculous. I did say that I felt horrible about leaving the doe out there, go back and re-read, you will see that.

What my family and I did was not animal abuse in the slightest and I dont appreciate being called one. Go get off you high horse, things might have turned out the same if this was your first time dealing with a bad dystocia also with no experience. 



> How are mama and baby today, Kierababy16? Still doing ok I hope?


They are both good. Mama isnt that sore anymore at all and the baby is nursing now.


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

Cliff said:


> I'm not condoning anything that happened, from the breeding on. I indicated such in my posts. But have none of you had to learn by screwing up? Did you know everything when you were 17? Has nobody or no thing ever had to suffer from a mistake you made? Ever? I know I was in total la la land when I was her age, she seems pretty well grounded.
> 
> Get off her back, she learned from it and can't do anything to change it now.


Cliff I couldn't have said it better!


Kiera, I hope to see some pictures of the baby when she is older! Faith is a wonderful name! I couldn't tell from the pic what she might be, but I am voting for all Pygmy just cuz she is so darn cute!


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

ShyAnne said:


> Umm, how do you know they didn*promise* her they would take the doe in to see a vet in the am?
> They tried to call that night and when there was no one available they did call and go in in the am.She said she expected to see the doe dead the next am.( when she checked on it)Not that she left it to die purposely the night before.
> 
> What else could she have done? She worked for 2 hrs, she didnt have experience as she stated that it was her first time to deliver a goat. No vets available. Just shoot her? When option B is to take her to the vet in the am IF she makes it.
> ...


I didnt leave the doe to die purposely. I didnt want her to die and I did everything that I was capable of doing that night. We did what we thought was right. 

Im not sure what type of pain meds I could have given her. I had bute, If I knew the dosage and if i knew it wouldnt hurt her I would have given her that.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

kierababy16 said:


> I didnt leave the doe to die purposely. I didnt want her to die and I did everything that I was capable of doing that night. We did what we thought was right.
> 
> Im not sure what type of pain meds I could have given her. I had bute, If I knew the dosage and if i knew it wouldnt hurt her I would have given her that.


I dont know about bute. I know its ok in horses but have no idea about pain meds for goats.

I know you did the best you could and you have a doe and her kid now. 
I have been in this same situation with a friend and their goat. The doe had to be put down after I spent hours trying to pull the kid,it was just to big. The couldnt afford to do a c section. I felt horrible because I knew they were going to shoot her so I kept trying. The kid was dead when we found her in labor trying to push it out. In the end we lost both. 
Glad you have Mom and baby.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

Anyone else before you half read a thread and them judge please read page 2 she had already asked her mom for the section and mother refused!!


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## MJFarms (Sep 20, 2008)

You did the best you knew how and your hearts in the right place.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Kierababy16,
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience. Being 17 and inexperienced isn't much different than being 55 and inexperienced. The learning curve is steep.
I'll share what I did in a terrible emergency. I tried to remember the most experienced people on this list. I looked up Vicki's website, got her phone number but couldn't reach her. I then went to Suzanne's personal info and called her. Nothing saved my little beautiful doelings, but I was conforted by the knowledge that I had an experienced goatherder on the phone. Suzanne didn't beat me up; probably because I was doing that enough to myself.

I committed a great error that cost me two potentially great milkers, then later lost their mother. If you need help, call someone. Most on here will be happy to try to give sound advice, and if we can't we'll know someone who can.

I'd also like to see a pix of Faith.
Best Paul


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## General Brown (Jan 10, 2008)

Kierababy16,

Dont pay attention to the ones that have decided that they have a right to flame you. This forum is suppose to be for helpfull *ADVICE*. Eveidently in their little warped world that probably isn't going right to begin with, they have a need to lash out at anyone they can. I really don't understand how the mods have let this go on as long as it has. It should have been squashed several pages back, and a *STERN* warning to the offending posters. I have 2 goats that will be kidding in the latter part of Feb and March, and I have asked a few questions here and most of them go unreplied to, so I found another forum that is happy to help. Its just sad that ppl are like this.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

General Brown...in ref to un-replied questions I am pm-ing you as to not get off topic here


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't think it should have been squashed. I think she needs to hear all opinions. That is what foruming is about. That is why many have age limits. Why shelter her from the results of her posts? Hopefully she will learn and become a great vet tech with this memory to spur her to help others in need without judging. 
B~


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Well I might as well add that there could have been 3 kids & mom alive today instead of just 1 kid & the mom so I disagree that it was the best choice. I hope you are watching the doe for post kidding problems.

Claiming ignorance is unfounded as there was ample warning of probable birthing issues from many including myself. Leaving a doe who was in clear distress is not good animal stewardship-doesn't matter how old you are. 
HF


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Well I might as well add that there could have been 3 kids & mom alive today instead of just 1 kid & the mom so I disagree that it was the best choice. I hope you are watching the doe for post kidding problems.
> 
> Claiming ignorance is unfounded as there was ample warning of probable birthing issues from many including myself. Leaving a doe who was in clear distress is not good animal stewardship-doesn't matter how old you are.
> HF


That would be if we could get ahold of any vet the night that she was delivering. We couldnt get ahold of a vet for us to either take her in or have them come out. So really there couldnt have been 3 kids and a mom alive. Even when she was taken to the vet it took them a hr. to get the baby out. That is a long time. 

I am not claiming ignorance. I talked to the vet I work for and several others, they all said the same thing. Just because you were right about her having dystocia that doesnt mean what I did was wrong. Even if she was taken to the vet there is no guarentee that the 2 kids would be alive anyway.


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## Middle River (Apr 11, 2007)

HappyFarmer said:


> I agree, and will say that this was animal abuse/neglect pure and simple. Some of you can say what you wish about us that are pointing this out - I am hoping it will at least prevent somebody from making the same choice. I personally will never condone any abuse, animal, child or any that I see, hear of or know of, and will not sit back and say nothing about it - I just can't look the other way or try to make up some excuse for it.
> 
> This is a forum for learning, and whats wrong if maybe she should learn she made a horrible choice, or learning something that may prevent pain in the future to someone/something ? Life is tuff sometimes, sometimes you get bit and by golly sometimes you just have to pay for the choices you make- and hopefully make some changes or learn along the way.
> 
> ...


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## kierababy16 (Mar 12, 2009)

Middle River said:


> I agree, and will say that this was animal abuse/neglect pure and simple. Some of you can say what you wish about us that are pointing this out - I am hoping it will at least prevent somebody from making the same choice. I personally will never condone any abuse, animal, child or any that I see, hear of or know of, and will not sit back and say nothing about it - I just can't look the other way or try to make up some excuse for it.
> 
> This is a forum for learning, and whats wrong if maybe she should learn she made a horrible choice, or learning something that may prevent pain in the future to someone/something ? Life is tuff sometimes, sometimes you get bit and by golly sometimes you just have to pay for the choices you make- and hopefully make some changes or learn along the way.
> 
> ...



I will only respond to the bolded part. The kids legs were not coming out of the doe in any of the pictures that I posted. She hadnt even started to have the second kid when I took these. So once again you are wrong, when you think you are right. I do have a pic that I did not post of the just the legs coming out. 

The legs were not far enough out that you would be able to see them without really zooming in with the camera.


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## General Brown (Jan 10, 2008)

I really believe everything that was needed to be said has been said, plus many remarks that were way out of line. Can we not just end this thread?
There is no further purpose in this bashing outside of ones own self satisfaction. Please...


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Sigh.....

Several posts on this thread have come dangerously close to "not nice". The name calling "lazy et al" are unecessary and harmful. I will watch those that participated in the same and you will begin to rack up infractions if you repeat it.

That said, this forum is a place to ask for advice and that advice is sometimes direct and difficult to hear. If everyone is forced to soft-petal their input, more grievous mistakes can be made.

Taking the view that "what's done is done" in this case without bringing up some obvious errors could cause a subsequent reader to repeat the same errors.

I am not an expert like Vicki, Susanne and the rest but I will register my opinion on this one, as well: I would never, under any circumstances, leave an animal alone that is in a compromised position. This doe could have suffered for hours and then died. I personally believe that whether this choice was made by Keira or her family - it was obviously the wrong thing to do.

I also do not believe in owning and breeding an animal if you aren't in the financial position to provide the proper care should something go wrong. Just my opinion. 

Beyond judging the action - it is nobody's right here to call Keira names or judge her motives so please refrain from such actions in the future.

My apologies that I didn't stop this thread more quickly. It did take on a life of it's own. I would hope that no harm was done, some lessons were learned (including how far is too far when registering disagreement).

Keira, my apologies if you were offended by some of the posts. On the other hand, I hope that you learned something from the exchange.

Cliff


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