# Looking into a guardian animal



## AngDeaver (May 22, 2016)

A little over a month ago we got 3 kid boers (2 does and a wether); they are our first goats either of us have had. They are about 4-5 months old. We keep them in a pen about 50'x50' with 5' and 6' chain link fencing and a 10'x20' lean-to. We live in a very small, rural, town but the law only lets us have a fence no higher than 6'.

There are predators here, we live in Oregon. Mountain lion primarily, but also coyotes, hawks, dogs, bears, foxes and eagles. A six foot fence won't do a whole lot to deter mountain lions, but we hope to keep out dogs and coyotes. Our ground is very hard clay and even in rainy season very hard to dig in. I am hoping for a dog or coyote that it would be more trouble than it was worth. Even our auger has a hard time digging our post holes. We are also enclosing a larger area for them for day-use about 65'x165' once we finish putting up all the chain link. 

There a lots of herds of sheep and cows in our area, and a llama farm across the valley. I thought we were pretty safe from predators, but when I was buying hay from a local farmer; he said a few years ago two mountain lions round up and killed 60 sheep one night at his neighbors. Then the coyotes get in and got some of his herd once or twice. (I didn't even know we had coyotes).

Needless to say, I didn't sleep well that night.

We knew eventually we wanted a guardian animal, but we have no idea which kind. We both commute and I work long hours, and are only free-time is on weekends. I don't have a lot of time to train a dog, so it doesn't seem like a good fit.

We also considered alpaca, llama, donkey and a mini-donkey; been leaning towards mini-donk. We only have the three goats. We only have 2 acres with our home and entire yard. However, I just read a thread where the donkey attacked someone's goats, and that sounded horrifying. 

Do you think so few goats need a guardian animal? I was thinking it would be best since we aren't home all day, but now I wonder it is more risk than it is worth.


Ang
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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I can only tell you what I would do were I in your situation. It would not...not...get a "guardian" dog. You would need more than one to be useful against the predators you're describing. You would need a "pack" and even then it could be a blood bath and your goats would be the losers. Thus, I would not have goats or any animal that I could not keep shut up when I wasn't home. Even having chickens would mean a pen with a covering for their protection. 

Sorry I know this is not what you wanted to hear. I just don't see any way of protecting animals in your area. Perhaps someone else in this forum can be of more help to you.


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## AngDeaver (May 22, 2016)

They are shut up in their 50'x50' pen when we aren't home and at night. I don't let them roam free. The only time they aren't shut up is collard and with one of on a leash. Their fence is 6' on the property perimeter and 5' into the rest of our yard. It is a strong sturdy fence.

I haven't seen any mountain lions in years, but they do live here. As for the rest (other than the birds and dogs) I have never seen them.

I didn't mean to make it sound like we didn't have them protected at all.

The sheep that were attacked had just old field fencing, no additional protection at all. The owners were warned about the mountain lions that had been seen there and ignored them. 

That is why I am trying to come up with other ways to protect them.


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## AngDeaver (May 22, 2016)

We haven't completed their barn/lean-to yet, but their pen is completely enclosed.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

That is a lovely set up; and your goats are adorable. I can see the probability of your set up being protective for those 3 kids....providing no mountain lion shows up.

Since you state your fencing is strong enough to deter dogs and cayotes from entering, I see no reason for you to have any animal in there with your goats. A dog certainly would be no protection against mountain lions. Also, an LGD would need a great deal more than a 50'x 50' space to be satisfied. (I've heard some positive things about mini-donkeys guarding goats/sheep; however, again it would be no match for a mountain lion.)

If you're simply wanting a good guard dog for your two acres, you don't need an LGD; and any large breed known for its propensity to guard would suffice.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Oregon is one of those really stupid states that allowed animal extremists to run rough shod over their game management laws. So no hound hunting. Where hound hunting is legal and practiced regularly, mountain lions steer clear of places that have dogs. Most any yapping dog will do, as many lions have encountered dogs that made them sit patiently in a tree while humans snapped pictures of them, and in some instances harvest those cats.

You have a small place, where no predators are accustomed to obtaining food. You might be OK for quite awhile, but you might not. I would add some electric wire to the outside of the pen, maybe get some motion activated lights, and maybe get a rescue dog to bark from it's kennel, and make regular urination patrols. (Establishes a canine territory and keeps out some of the smaller canines.) Most of the goat predators are nocturnal, so coming out at night when the dog barks could make some of them feel uneasy if they were hanging around. Most of the dedicated livestock guardian breeds would not be well suited to a two acre enclosure, while you are gone, they could dig out and leave a hole to let predators in. Alpacas are regularly preyed upon by coyotes, you would need a llama at least, and I'm not sure they would be safe from mountain lions. If you get a donkey, don't get a male, females tend to be less aggressive toward your livestock, but no guarantees.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Yes, hot wires!
A couple at top of fence and over/near roof edge and a couple at bottom of fence to prevent dig ins.
A good charger and a good tester to make sure it's hot.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

We have all heard the age-old adage, &#8220;It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.&#8221; Now, if the fight is against a Grizzly Bear or a Grey Wolf where would you place your bet? Probably, not on your Yorkshire terrier. Many farmers and ranchers in the Rocky Mountain West, have relied for years on large &#8220;white dogs&#8221; for protection. This colloquial term generally refers to a Great Pyrenee, Akbash or otherwise mixed breed dog you might notice lounging protectively near a sheep herd on the Montana prairie. 
Dr. Julie Young from the National Wildlife Research Center's(NWRC) Predator Research Facility in Logan Utah is now overseeing research to determine whether the size of the dog in the fight does in fact matter. Dr. Young spoke with Northern Ag Network last week and told us that she is asking, &#8220;Is it specific dog breeds or just the individual traits within a dog that better enable it to protect livestock from predators?&#8221;
While coyotes have had a consistent impact on herds throughout the region, given the increase in Grizzly Bear and Wolf populations as well as the sustained interest in protecting these species, researchers are specifically interested in non-lethal approaches to predator management. Is it possible that a domestic dog watching over a herd might help prevent the deaths of sheep as well as the deaths of the beasts that hunt them? 
Protection dogs have already saved farmers and ranchers from devastating livestock losses and offered herds the peace of mind to eat in comfort in order to make it to market with plenty of extra flesh on their bones. However, agriculturalists have also felt the sobering impact of a faithful warrior gone missing or a guard dog injured and too afraid to remain at its post. So, Dr. Young and her team are intensely studying whether a larger, bolder breed might be more suited to the task of guarding against large carnivores.









Karakachan dog in Bulgaria.

Through a process of identifying 33 different breeds of guard dogs, focusing on the 10 breeds which were larger and more bold, and eliminating those which have been popularized for other reasons, the study focused in on three breeds which are not only significantly larger than other guard dogs, but also reported as bolder in protecting livestock in their own countries.


The three breeds of study are the Kangal from Turkey, Karakachan from Bulgaria, and the CÃ£de Gado Transmontano from Portugal. Each of these breeds is renowned for their protective instincts. Kangals have not only defended herds against dogs, but attacked wolves in Turkey. Due to these acts of valor, Kangals have already been studied in Africa as a method of protecting herds as well as in turn protecting the endangered Cheetah. Over 300 Kangals have been imported to Namibia since 1994, and researchers report that livestock loss has been reduced by over 80%.








Kangal with herd of goats in Namibia.


In 2013,Young and her team began doing pilot work in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon and Washington. The team identified sheep ranches in these states which have a notable and current presence of bear and wolf activity. Each ranch in the study has been given three neutered pups (one of each breed) imported from Europe, and these pups are currently being raised with their herds on the various ranches. 
So, does the size of the dog in the fight matter? Young says that it is still early to give any results. The pups are still growing and will need to reach maturity of 2-3 years before they can be considered a fully capacitated protection animal. Anecdotally, Young says that some ranchers are already seeing results in individual dogs and ranchers say they are like the pups. Young says further, &#8220;We have enough anecdotal data that they are working as well as the other dogs indicating that it is worthwhile to continue the study.&#8221; However, this summer will be the first one where the dogs are beginning to be old enough that results may be seen.
John Steuber of Montana&#8217;s Animal and Plant Health and Inspection Service (APHIS) told Northern Ag Network that we are just now entering in to the large predator activity season, &#8220;Grizzly Bears are now waking up, calves and lambs are on the ground, and many ranchers are moving animals to summer pasture.&#8221; Now, is the time for producers to consider what they are doing to protect their animals. 
Beyond utilizing protection dogs to prevent livestock loss, multiple groups in Montana are now coming together to discuss nonlethal methods for protecting livestock from natural carnivores. In January, a landmark workshop was held in Dillon, Montana joining together ranchers, conversation groups, livestock loss board members, and even biologists &#8211; 88 participants in total. Other methods that were discussed for protecting livestock include carcass pick-up programs which are gaining popularity in the Black Feet and Madison Valleys, using range riders, gathering cows in the evening, and even electric, solar-charged fences. The workshop was such a success; Wildlife Services will hold another Non-lethal Workshop in Polson, Montana on May 21. All producers and interest groups are welcome to attend.
If ranchers are interested in participating in the protection dog research program, they are encouraged to contact Julie Young at [email protected] for more information. 
For further history on livestock protection dogs and the ongoing research project, we encourage you to take a look at the following article from High Country News: https://www.hcn.org/articles/searching-for-the-best-dog-to-save-livestock-and-wildlife .
Are you currently participating in the program and want to share your story with the Northern Ag Network audience? We would love to hear from you! Please write to us at [email protected] .


Courtney Brown
Â© Northern Ag Network 2015​ 

I am not sure if this addresses your question but it has some good info in it for areas with high levels of predators. We lived in Wyoming for a few years and our pyranees did great.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

A double fence is pretty good at keeping animals where they belong. Add a hot wire over the top of your current fence, but also add an electric fence two feet outside of the current fence. It can be portable netting, which is easily seen.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

An LGD, even the best there is, is not always what is needed and often is put in a position that does nothing to fulfill its own needs.


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