# The new Gillette commercial



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I think it's incredibly powerful, and I too, believe the best in men.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think it’s a disgusting jab at the best in men.
Just like I said in the other thread.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I think it’s a disgusting jab at the best in men.
> Just like I said in the other thread.


Yeppers, I just hate when someone try's to tell me all biscuits are manure just because they ate one at a rodeo. Sure, there are a few jerks out there, won't even try to deny that, but the vast majority by far are good men who love and care for and provide for their families. We seldom hear about them though, quite possibly because they are quietly going about their lives, being good fathers to their kids, loving their wives. No big news story there.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Should men really think ,act and have the same outlooks as women ?
Are we bad when we don’t ?
Urruugh!


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## Grafton County Couple (Sep 20, 2018)

Walk softly and carry a Bic Stik (razor)


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## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

So...I do have a question about this here ad...when did it suddenly become uncouth for boys to fight each other? I wouldn't be so dang tough (or is it sore...) if it wasn't for all those childhood scuffels. 

And BTW, I can't stand their razors...but I see they are donating a million dollars a year for the next three years to different organizations...starting with the Boys and Girls Club..I will give em a halfway thumbs up for that...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Grafton County Couple said:


> Walk softly and carry a Bic Stik (razor)


I see what you did there.
Very clever!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

crehberg said:


> So...I do have a question about this here ad...when did it suddenly become uncouth for boys to fight each other? I wouldn't be so dang tough (or is it sore...) if it wasn't for all those childhood scuffels.


Next life try growing up as a boy named Sue.... That'll put some gravel in yer gizzard!


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## pairofthrees (Apr 28, 2016)

I think the ad is poorly disguised pandering to what is a current hot topic.

The world is easier for me because I was born an American, because I'm a man and because I'm white. 
I think most in the same situation understand this. The problem comes when we are made to feel like we should apologize for it. I understand the problem and personally believe it is more pervasive than most, but stuff like this ad I find insulting.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

pairofthrees said:


> stuff like this ad I find insulting.


That's how it's meant.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

It's just more #fakenews meant to divide and I also found it insulting


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

While the viral reaction to the Gillette ad makes clear Americans are rejecting this effort to demonize men, it’s worth remembering we’re not dealing with just an idiotic misstep by a marketing company. The APA guidelines demonizing “masculinity” sends an authoritative message to society in general, creating a dangerous environment for any boy or man who does choose to seek the assistance of a psychotherapist. It’s time we stand up for ourselves and insist this pathological frenzy to marginalize boys and men stop.

from this article:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tam...thological-frenzy-to-marginalize-boys-and-men


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Did anyone other than me notice that ALL of the "rowdy, mis-behaving" boys and men in the ad are WHITE? I see it as yet another smarmy slam against WHITE MEN.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

These razors will come in handy when those men shave their legs and armpits.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Just anecdotal comment from a group at work. Most of the men thought the commercial was dumb, silly and/or insulting, funny thing is the women were of the same mind. As one of the women said the biggest bullies she ever encountered were female, there was a lot of agreement on that comment, including me. 

As a disclaimer I have a degree in psychology and realized early it was not a fit for me. It can be amazingly helpful for many but it has the ability to be used as a weapon by some less than stellar entities. IMHO


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

pairofthrees said:


> I think the ad is poorly disguised pandering to what is a current hot topic.
> 
> The world is easier for me because I was born an American, because I'm a man and because I'm white.
> I think most in the same situation understand this. The problem comes when we are made to feel like we should apologize for it. I understand the problem and personally believe it is more pervasive than most, but stuff like this ad I find insulting.


I think it is addressing a hot topic, the basis being "boys will be boys". I don't think anyone is looking for apologies, just teaching the next generation of boys that violence isn't the solution, and sexual harassment won't be tolerated. I'm sorry you found it insulting, it is not aimed at the majority of men.

No one is trying to make men more feminine, that's absurd. What is being discussed is "toxic masculinity" the generational "the whole real men thing" "boys don't cry" "it's weak to have or show emotion", hyper violence, bullying, the extreme of masculinity.

Everyone is allowed their own opinion on this commercial, it's just food for thought.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

nehimama said:


> Did anyone other than me notice that ALL of the "rowdy, mis-behaving" boys and men in the ad are WHITE? I see it as yet another smarmy slam against WHITE MEN.


There were black men and boys in the video, and some of them were fighting.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

And I found this as well:

"Just days before the release of the ad, the American Psychological Association (APA) issued new “Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Boys and Men.” The new guidelines highlight the unique physical and mental health risks that boys and men face, including higher rates of completed suicide, violence, substance abuse, cardiovascular problems and early mortality. They also issue a warning against conforming to traditional stereotypes of masculinity, citing years of research that links machismo to the aforementioned health risks. "

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/16/sci...ssage-of-gillettes-toxic-masculinity-ad-.html


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I don't think a commercial is where "boys" will learn to be "good boys" or "good adult men". That starts at home.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

hiddensprings said:


> I don't think a commercial is where "boys" will learn to be "good boys" or "good adult men". That starts at home.


That is exactly the point of the commercial.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> And I found this as well:
> 
> "Just days before the release of the ad, the American Psychological Association (APA) issued new “Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Boys and Men.” The new guidelines highlight the unique physical and mental health risks that boys and men face, including higher rates of completed suicide, violence, substance abuse, cardiovascular problems and early mortality. They also issue a warning against conforming to traditional stereotypes of masculinity, citing years of research that links machismo to the aforementioned health risks. "
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/16/sci...ssage-of-gillettes-toxic-masculinity-ad-.html


Let us know when they come out with something that addresses "Toxic Feminism" please, you know - level playing field and all...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> I think it is addressing a hot topic, the basis being "boys will be boys". I don't think anyone is looking for apologies, just teaching the next generation of boys that violence isn't the solution, and sexual harassment won't be tolerated. I'm sorry you found it insulting, it is not aimed at the majority of men.
> 
> No one is trying to make men more feminine, that's absurd. What is being discussed is "toxic masculinity" the generational "the whole real men thing" "boys don't cry" "it's weak to have or show emotion", hyper violence, bullying, the extreme of masculinity.
> 
> Everyone is allowed their own opinion on this commercial, it's just food for thought.


LOL yeah we realize you are the cheerleader poster girl for this kind of thinking.
I got some news for you * IN THIS WORLD SOMETIMES VIOLENCE IS THE ANSWER*!


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> LOL yeah we realize you are the cheerleader poster girl for this kind of thinking.
> I got some news for you * IN THIS WORLD SOMETIMES VIOLENCE IS THE ANSWER*!


Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them," because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I dont like my answer but mish does have a good take on it....


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

WT*...what now I need some corporate razor company trying to dictate morality? They can keep their opinions of right and wrong to themselves. the real sad truth of this is, some "Expletive" (Yes, I meant expletive not executive)in some ad agency is only doing this as a 'strategy' because they want to market their product to female audiences.That is it.... so in reality, they are just saying they are clever enough to do something, to make fools (The woman.) dance for them and their profit, laughing all way to the bank with their con job.
Powerful message....please... I have a mind to boycott them.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Rather than a commercial, I would recommend a book that is intend to help parents raise "real" men.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I have no problem with the commerical


Irish Pixie said:


> I think it is addressing a hot topic, the basis being "boys will be boys". I don't think anyone is looking for apologies, just teaching the next generation of boys that violence isn't the solution, and sexual harassment won't be tolerated. I'm sorry you found it insulting, it is not aimed at the majority of men.
> 
> No one is trying to make men more feminine, that's absurd. What is being discussed is "toxic masculinity" the generational "the whole real men thing" "boys don't cry" "it's weak to have or show emotion", hyper violence, bullying, the extreme of masculinity.
> 
> Everyone is allowed their own opinion on this commercial, it's just food for thought.


I think that's what has most people upset. The phrase " toxic masculinity". It's not the masculinity that makes a person toxic anymore than being feminine causes toxicity. Other issues are to blame usually. I've known many toxic females. 

To me it's like hearing a racist say that all blacks like fried chicken because he seen some of them eat it. It's the same principle and nearly as demeaning. 

Toxic behavior would be a better buzz word for the pc people. That way applies to everyone everywhere.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Anyway, it's just a ploy to sell razors. They have found out through Nike, chick fillet and Pepsi that even negative ads generate money. 

This from the ceo himself.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> Rather than a commercial, I would recommend a book that is intend to help parents raise "real" men.


I know I should not have listened to those Sonic commercials when I was raising my kids.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Well, Schick!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm growing a beard


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Gillette should ask women (who do the majority of household spending) if they appreciate a masculine man. I do! And so do my friends and family. I honestly don't think MSM or liberals know what masculine means. To me, masculine means honest, moral, strong, knowledgeable, kind, hard working, etc. It really doesn't have anything to do with their facial hair.

Your mileage may vary.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

nehimama said:


> Gillette should ask women (who do the majority of household spending) if they appreciate a masculine man. I do! And so do my friends and family. I honestly don't think MSM or liberals know what masculine means. To me, masculine means honest, moral, strong, knowledgeable, kind, hard working, etc. It really doesn't have anything to do with their facial hair.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.


I'm not against the message, just the delivery. If you really want to get through to someone you have to get them to listen and respect what they are trying to say. 

Alienating the very ones you are trying to convince is counter productive.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

A formerly pretty nice member is rapidly becoming severely toxic. When you define masculinity by political party affiliation, you're too far gone to get back.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Clem said:


> A formerly pretty nice member is rapidly becoming severely toxic. When you define masculinity by political party affiliation, you're too far gone to get back.



I wonder what changed in their life recently to make them become so angry ?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

My first razor was a single edge razor was basically free with the blades. The top had a finger tab that opened it and the blade was set in place. Dad had multiples and I secured some for my own use. The first one I bought was , IIRC, a long handled Schick double edged razor, probably cost $4 with a couple of blades included. Got it in the mid 60s and kept it until 1998 when the house burned. Didn't use it much by then, having switched to the more common cartridge models with triple or double blades. I nicked myself far less with the cartridge, but did occasionally use the old standby. Makes me a bit nostalgic, might have to go see about getting a replacement for old faithful. By the way, Gillette patented the safety razor.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Clem said:


> A formerly pretty nice member is rapidly becoming severely toxic. When you define masculinity by political party affiliation, you're too far gone to get back.


YMMV


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

M. All the people that helped you throughout your life, all the people who wished you well, and prayed for you, right here at HT, during your health and other trials, all* those who were(or are) liberals*............................... They were beneath your scorn? beneath your appreciation? or just didn't know what masculine means?
You said it, you said "honestly" even, meaning you actually believe what you said. and here it is:


nehimama said:


> *I honestly don't think MSM or liberals know what masculine means*


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

I did paint all liberals with the same broad brush. I own that, and realize it was not the right thing to do. My apologies.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It accomplished exactly what it was supposed to. Lots of talk, lots of eyeballs on the commercial and discussion about behavior.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

The video has 435,000 thumbs up and 848'000 thumbs down, but we are talking about them


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Was the commercial written and produced by feminists, or feminine men?

Does shaving under their arms aggravate some women and make them irritable, maybe resentful of men with hairy arm pits?

Is it aimed at the 65% + black boys raised singularly by their mothers acting out as men?

Was it aimed at incarcerated men only?

Can women not use a grill at will?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

What about the bathing suit scene ?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

They don't call it programming for nothing...…..


pro·gram
[ˈprōˌɡram]
VERB
*programming* (present participle)

provide (a computer or other machine) with coded instructions for the automatic performance of a task.
"it is a simple matter to program the computer to recognize such symbols"
write computer programs.
"I've programmed for 25 years and have used many languages"
input (instructions for the automatic performance of a task) into a computer or other machine.
"simply program in your desired volume level"
synonyms:
set · fix · arrange
cause (a person or animal) to behave in a predetermined way.
"all members of a particular species are programmed to build nests in the same way"

arrange according to a plan or schedule.
"we learn how to program our own lives consciously"
synonyms:
arrange · organize · schedule · plan · map out · lay out · timetable · line up · prearrange · slate
schedule (an item) within a framework.
"the next stage of the treaty is programmed for 1996"

US
broadcast (an item).
"the station does not program enough contemporary works"


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I think it is addressing* a hot topic*


Exactly.
It's mindless social media frenzy, pushing an agenda.



Irish Pixie said:


> *Everyone* is allowed *their own* opinion on this commercial, it's just food for thought.


Exactly.
Everyone.
Their own.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> LOL yeah we realize you are the cheerleader poster girl for this kind of thinking.
> I got some news for you * IN THIS WORLD SOMETIMES VIOLENCE IS THE ANSWER*!


I'd go a bit further and say violence (or the threat thereof) is usually the answer.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

That might be a step to far.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Clem said:


> A formerly pretty nice member is rapidly becoming severely toxic.


We realize that too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> It accomplished exactly what it was supposed to.


Yes, it was always about the agenda.
Nothing more.
SSDD


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

The conclusion is obvious, being clean shaven makes you mean and want to fight. Thus its all fault of barbers and razor sellers.

I have shaved once since I was teen (high school dress code thing). That was for my first marriage ceremony at request of the bride to be. And no I dont have long beard usually, its a nuisance, I trim it down to quarter to half inch just like rest of hair on my head. Shaving is lot more hassle than dog trimmers doing a buzz cut.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Hmmmmm. I wonder how long it will be before some of the women who work for Gillette start filing sexual harassment suits?

You just know that there is a man there at Gillette that has "toxic masculinity" and hasn't treated some of the women so well.


The #me too "movement", isn't actually fighting against anything. It's become more of a club, and some seem to think it's a high honor to be in the club.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Clem said:


> A formerly pretty nice member is rapidly becoming severely toxic. When you define masculinity by political party affiliation, you're too far gone to get back.


Severely eh? and toxic...oh my...liberal is not a 'political party affiliation'.....except to maybe liberals, who liberally distort definition to suit their own purposes. but hey..if the high heel fits in their definition of masculinity,...then well, it's more than likely a liberal wearing it.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Clem said:


> A formerly pretty nice member is rapidly becoming severely toxic. When you define masculinity by political party affiliation, you're too far gone to get back.


Guess I'd better pay more attention, missed which political party had more masculinity than the other. LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

party and liberal just dont go together


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

nehimama said:


> Gillette should ask women (who do the majority of household spending) if they appreciate a masculine man. I do! And so do my friends and family. I honestly don't think MSM or liberals know what masculine means. To me, masculine means honest, moral, strong, knowledgeable, kind, hard working, etc. It really doesn't have anything to do with their facial hair.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.


That's pretty much what my definition of masculine is as well, and it never had anything to do with facial hair. Masculinity is what makes men, actually it's large amounts of testosterone but we won't quibble, and that is a wonderful thing. It's the "toxic" part that is ugly. 

Most men are not toxic, but we've seen many examples of toxic masculinity in the news lately, and it's ugly.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's pretty much what my definition of masculine is as well, and it never had anything to do with facial hair. Masculinity is what makes men, actually it's large amounts of testosterone but we won't quibble, and that is a wonderful thing. It's the "toxic" part that is ugly.
> 
> Most men are not toxic, but we've seen many examples of toxic masculinity in the news lately, and it's ugly.


I'll just go with my gut feeling here. There are toxic people of both sexes, IMHO neither sex holds a majority. Me I'm not interested in diversionary tactics, it does nothing for the conversation except pit different groups against each other. I have three older brothers and yes they are masculine, so with today's climate I feel uncomfortable with the narrative and over reactions.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Most men are not toxic, but we've seen many examples of toxic masculinity *in the news lately*, and it's ugly.


The news is largely agenda driven and not factual.
Just like this commercial.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I like beards on men, just saying.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Women do not manipulate and use men.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> I'll just go with my gut feeling here. There are toxic people of both sexes, IMHO neither sex holds a majority. Me I'm not interested in diversionary tactics, it does nothing for the conversation except pit different groups against each other. I have three older brothers and yes they are masculine, so with today's climate I feel uncomfortable with the narrative and over reactions.


Of course, I don't believe that anyone has said there aren't toxic women. The toxic men have just been brought front and center, and that's a good thing. The toxic women will be too. 

To me, it's not diversionary it's education. It's OK for boys to have emotion, it's OK for boys show emotion, it's OK to be kind, etc. The ugly of "real men" machismo is being exposed as not what a man is. I think the commercial hit all the high points, and it what it was intended to do. 

What narrative and over reaction are you uncomfortable with?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

oneraddad said:


>


What are they all looking at? Maybe waiting on her to bring beer?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

roadless said:


> I like beards on men


I'd rather they be on men too.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Is this for real?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

That picture is from 2011


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> Of course, I don't believe that anyone has said there aren't toxic women. The toxic men have just been brought front and center, and that's a good thing. The toxic women will be too.
> 
> To me, it's not diversionary it's education. It's OK for boys to have emotion, it's OK for boys show emotion, it's OK to be kind, etc. The ugly of "real men" machismo is being exposed as not what a man is. I think the commercial hit all the high points, and it what it was intended to do.
> 
> What narrative and over reaction are you uncomfortable with?


I'm uncomfortable with the narrative that implying that masculinity is somehow harmful. Men and women have natural tendencies emotionally to attempt to categorize any as wrong is IMHO harmful psychologically. 

There bad, dangerous and toxic humans lets concentrate on those individuals instead of dividing and pointing fingers at segments of humanity.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> That picture is from 2011


It's not so much about objectifying women either, sex and the female form will always be in advertising. Most people can understand that advertising isn't real, it's real life sexual harassment, talking over/talking for in the business world (what she really meant to say), etc. that is the central issue.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> I'm uncomfortable with the narrative that implying that masculinity is somehow harmful. Men and women have natural tendencies emotionally to attempt to categorize any as wrong is IMHO harmful psychologically.
> 
> There bad, dangerous and toxic humans lets concentrate on those individuals instead of dividing and pointing fingers at segments of humanity.


I don't believe that anyone has indicted that masculinity is harmful, or femininity for that matter. It's the toxicity of the machismo "real man" that is being addressed, and science has proven it's damaging. I provided a link early in the thread. 

I do understand what you're saying tho.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

We're not really far removed from nature and when ever a bear or mountain lion wonders into town it's always a young male. Just like I might not know what giving birth feels like women can't feel what it's like to be a male. 

And as a male I'd like to say those Gillette girls have nice assets


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> That picture is from 2011


What difference does that make?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe that anyone has indicted that masculinity is harmful


Hundreds of thousands disagree with that.



Irish Pixie said:


> It's the *toxicity* of the machismo "real man" that is being addressed


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's not so much about objectifying women either, sex and the female form will always be in advertising. Most people can understand that advertising isn't real, it's real life sexual harassment, talking over/talking for in the business world (what she really meant to say), etc. that is the central issue.


I don't know, I get a little irritated with the idea of a company literally branding a woman's as...female form. Feels like objectification to me, personally.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What difference does that make?


A lot ! The 2019 models are already off the line...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *science has proven* it's damaging. I provided a link early in the thread.


In your *opinion.*


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> That picture is from 2011


I guess Gillette is woke now, or is that back when they were still a Canadian company?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

TripleD said:


> A lot ! The 2019 models are already off the line...


In the context of the post it's meaningless though.
The first post asked a simple question and showed the answer.
When the picture was taken doesn't change what it says.
That was just a diversion.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe that anyone has indicted that masculinity is harmful, or femininity for that matter. It's the toxicity of the machismo "real man" that is being addressed, and science has proven it's damaging. I provided a link early in the thread.
> 
> I do understand what you're saying tho.


When science can actually explain what exactly is toxic that is specific to males, from the article it is very loose in reasoning as to what a real man is.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> In the context of the post it's meaningless though.
> The first post asked a simple question and showed the answer.
> When it was taken doesn't change what it says.
> That was just a diversion.


I know that and I'm gonna look if it's out there to see, at least til they cut out my eyes...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> I don't know, I get a little irritated with the idea of a company literally branding a woman's as...female form. Feels like objectification to me, personally.


I do agree. Perhaps due to the MeToo and other movements we'll see less of it. As painterswife indicated that was from 2011, hopefully we'll continue to less blatant branding.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> (what she really meant to say)


Yeah, cause women *always* know what they are talking about:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> When science can actually explain what exactly is toxic that is specific to males, from the article it is very loose in reasoning as to what a real man is.


That isn't what I took from the article, but I'll read it again.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

TripleD said:


> at least til they cut out my eyes


Always wear protection


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

It's really easy, we just need to start raising kids to be *human beings* instead of gender roles.

Boys don't need to suck it up and hold it in, girls don't need to be "nice" above all else. Everyone needs to treat others as they would be treated - this includes macho men and sex object women. If you wouldn't want it done/said to your mother, sister or daughter, don't say it to a woman. If you wouldn't want it said to your father, brother, son, don't say it to a man.

It's not rocket surgery


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> It's really easy, we just need to start raising kids to be *human beings* instead of gender roles.
> 
> Boys don't need to suck it up and hold it in, girls don't need to be "nice" above all else. Everyone needs to treat others as they would be treated - this includes macho men and sex object women. If you wouldn't want it done/said to your mother, sister or daughter, don't say it to a woman. If you wouldn't want it said to your father, brother, son, don't say it to a man.
> 
> It's not rocket surgery


Exactly. Thank you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Mish said:


> It's not rocket surgery


And we don't need to be preached to by corporations about it.
It's really about the agenda more than anything else.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's not so much about objectifying women either, sex and the female form will always be in advertising. Most people can understand that advertising isn't real, it's real life sexual harassment, talking over/talking for in the business world (what she really meant to say), etc. that is the central issue.


How much time did you spend in the arena of big corporations and these poor things being talked over or talked for?

Just like sex being used in ads, this is a BS social justice play on your emotions in an ad. Just my opinion, of course.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Masculinity is what makes men, actually it's large amounts of testosterone but we won't quibble, and that is a wonderful thing. It's the "toxic" part that is ugly.


I agree!

No one should have to suffer toxicity, but I think the ad made it seem that toxicity is everywhere, all the time, and all perpetrated by men; white men.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's pretty much what my definition of masculine is as well, and it never had anything to do with facial hair. Masculinity is what makes men, actually it's large amounts of testosterone but we won't quibble, and that is a wonderful thing. It's the "toxic" part that is ugly.
> 
> Most men are not toxic, but we've seen many examples of toxic masculinity in the news lately, and it's ugly.


We see a lot of toxic femininity too.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

nehimama said:


> I agree!
> 
> No one should have to suffer toxicity, but I think the ad made it seem that toxicity is everywhere, all the time, and all perpetrated by men; white men.


That's not what I saw, there were men and boys of color exhibiting toxic behavior in the commercial. There are varying degrees of toxicity everywhere and all the time.

ETA: There are examples of toxic masculinity in this thread.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> These razors will come in handy when those men shave their legs and armpits.


At the same time as this ad came out I saw an article encouraging women not to shave their underarms and other body parts and to embrace their natural self.......Joseph Goebbels would be so proud of the leftists & feminists of today. Oh....yeah...I'm going back to wearing a full beard....


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

no really said:


> Just anecdotal comment from a group at work. Most of the men thought the commercial was dumb, silly and/or insulting, funny thing is the women were of the same mind. As one of the women said the biggest bullies she ever encountered were female, there was a lot of agreement on that comment, including me.
> 
> As a disclaimer I have a degree in psychology and realized early it was not a fit for me. It can be amazingly helpful for many but it has the ability to be used as a weapon by some less than stellar entities. IMHO


It's abused on a regular basis ...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's pretty much what my definition of masculine is as well, and it never had anything to do with facial hair. Masculinity is what makes men, actually it's large amounts of testosterone but we won't quibble, and that is a wonderful thing. It's the "toxic" part that is ugly.
> 
> Most men are not toxic, but we've seen many examples of toxic masculinity in the news lately, and it's ugly.


Toxic has nothing to do with testosterone or masculinity. Toxic has a lot to do with low self esteem. I see as many toxic women as I do men.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Women do not manipulate and use men.


Right.....


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe that anyone has indicted that masculinity is harmful, or femininity for that matter. It's the toxicity of the machismo "real man" that is being addressed, and science has proven it's damaging. I provided a link early in the thread.
> 
> I do understand what you're saying tho.


I'm not fond of generalizations and labels because everybody seems to have their own definiton and sooner or later, everybody gets painted with the same broad brush.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's pretty much what my definition of masculine is as well, and it never had anything to do with facial hair. Masculinity is what makes men, actually it's large amounts of testosterone but we won't quibble, and that is a wonderful thing. It's the "toxic" part that is ugly.
> 
> Most men are not toxic, but we've seen many examples of toxic masculinity in the news lately, and it's ugly.


That's why they call it toxic.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Of course, I don't believe that anyone has said there aren't toxic women. The toxic men have just been brought front and center, and that's a good thing. The toxic women will be too.
> 
> To me, it's not diversionary it's education. *It's OK for boys to have emotion, it's OK for boys show emotion,* it's OK to be kind, etc. The ugly of "real men" machismo is being exposed as not what a man is. I think the commercial hit all the high points, and it what it was intended to do.
> 
> What narrative and over reaction are you uncomfortable with?


 Anger, frustration, and jealously are emotions too. Are we saying it's ok for boys to express them too? Or would that be letting boys be boys?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Anger, frustration, and jealously are emotions too. Are we saying it's ok for boys to express them too? Or would that be letting boys be boys?


It is very possible to express your emotions without harassing, bullying or hurting another human being.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> It is very possible to express your emotions without harassing, bullying or hurting another human being.


Exactly. Everyone has, and should be able to express their emotions, but not in a way that adversely impacts others.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> It is very possible to express your emotions without harassing, bullying or hurting another human being.


Sometimes a good thump lessens the need for long winded conversation. Efficiency is a thing for some folks.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Sometimes a good thump lessens the need for long winded conversation. Efficiency is a thing for some folks.


So do you believe that because you have emotions that are toxic beating someone else is a good way to release them?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

sometimes verbally, sometimes in writing, sometimes physically, to each his own and as the occasion warrants. men and women all do it.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Anger, frustration, and jealously are emotions too. Are we saying it's ok for boys to express them too? Or would that be letting boys be boys?


Absolutely, I encouraged the boys I raised/helped to raise to express _any_ emotions they had in a _constructive_ way. That's the only way to do it if you want your males to be successful, productive and happy members of society, and not end up dead or in jail. Seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm missing something.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

whiterock said:


> sometimes verbally, sometimes in writing, sometimes physically, to each his own and as the occasion warrants. men and women all do it.


That would be a good example of what they are trying to get across in the commercial. It is not okay to express yourself by bullying, harassing, or physically attacking someone else because of how you feel.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> When science can actually explain what exactly is toxic that is specific to males, from the article it is very loose in reasoning as to what a real man is.


This is the study that I indicated in the link:

"The report states:

“Socialization for conforming to traditional masculinity ideology has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict (Pleck, 1981, 1995; O’Neil, 2008; O’Neil & Renzulli, 2013), and negatively influence mental health (e.g., O’Neil, 2008, 2013, 2015) and physical health (Courtenay, 2011; Gough & Robertson, 2017). Indeed, boys and men are overrepresented in a variety of psychological and social problems.”"

As well as this:

"Just days before the release of the ad, the American Psychological Association (APA) issued new “Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Boys and Men.” The new guidelines highlight the unique physical and mental health risks that boys and men face, including higher rates of completed suicide, violence, substance abuse, cardiovascular problems and early mortality. They also issue a warning against conforming to traditional stereotypes of masculinity, citing years of research that links machismo to the aforementioned health risks."


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The ad fits the preset liberal agenda that demonizes men who do not bow to the idea that men are privileged. The libs push the idea that women, the unnaturals and wimps who shave all the hair off their bodies should rule. 

Does not make sense to me; for eons men have worked to provide for, safeguard and live with women who bear them children. Such men had to be tough and virile, the sort who would fight if necessary. Now women don't want to bear children, even demanding the right to kill their children.

Can't expect men to put up with that; such women were the sort rough men played with in bordellos. When such women become commonplace in society men will view them as they did in the bordellos. If schoolgirls flaunt their bodies and send nude photos on their cell phones you can expect boys to be less respectful of them. Carries over into manhood.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> So do you believe that because you have emotions that are toxic beating someone else is a good way to release them?


Which emotions are "toxic"?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Which emotions are "toxic"?


Emotions that you use as an excuse to beat people instead of talking them out.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Emotions that you use as an excuse to beat people instead of talking them out.


Any in particular? Oh, and I don't use emotions as an excuse to beat anyone. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Sometimes a good thump lessens the need for long winded conversation. Efficiency is a thing for some folks.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> Any in particular? Oh, and I don't use emotions as an excuse to beat anyone. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.


I responded to what you posted. Sure looks like you are saying that a good thump( beating in my words) is an okay way to express your emotions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I responded to what you posted. Sure looks like you are saying that a good thump( beating in my words) is an okay way to express your emotions.


And sometimes it is. There is a difference twixt a sound thump (gets someone's undivided attention) and an unnecessary beating.


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## Grafton County Couple (Sep 20, 2018)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/charle...lettes-new-ad-campaign-is-toxic/#60db0fcb5bc9

 Will Gillette Stadium get a new name? What will happen to 'fans will be fans'?

Disclaimer: I am not, nor will ever be a Pats fan.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Phew, where to even start.



Oxankle said:


> The ad fits the preset liberal agenda that demonizes men who do not bow to the idea that men are privileged. The libs push the idea that women, the unnaturals and wimps who shave all the hair off their bodies should rule.


How dare women think they should "rule" or have positions of power. What kind of backward world would it become?



Oxankle said:


> Does not make sense to me; for eons men have worked to provide for, safeguard and live with women who bear them children. Such men had to be tough and virile, the sort who would fight if necessary. Now women don't want to bear children, even demanding the right to kill their children.


Yep. How dare we decide whether we want to be responsible (sometimes solely responsible) for at least one, if not a dozen, human beings for the rest of our lives. Or die while trying. You should definitely be able to decide that for me, silly of me to want to decide that issue for myself, with my dumb chicken brain. 



Oxankle said:


> Can't expect men to put up with that; such women were the sort rough men played with in bordellos. When such women become commonplace in society men will view them as they did in the bordellos. If schoolgirls flaunt their bodies and send nude photos on their cell phones you can expect boys to be less respectful of them. Carries over into manhood.


I'm definitely the sort of woman you're talking about, if you're talking about women who enjoy positions of power and want to have the right to determine what they do with their bodies. But I can say most definitely say, with all honesty, I have never stepped foot in a bordello. Nor have I flaunted my body while a schoolgirl (unless you mean that I had the audacity to wear shorts when it was hot out or a swimsuit when I went swimming - well then, I am guilty, how dare I be comfortable) or sent nude photos on a cell phone. 

Even if did any of those things, it doesn't make you any better than me because we have different reproductive parts. It most definitely doesn't give you the right to disrespect me and my choices about my body and my life. I doubted the whole toxic masculinity idea until I read your post. Thanks for enlightening me.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grafton County Couple said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/charle...lettes-new-ad-campaign-is-toxic/#60db0fcb5bc9
> 
> Will Gillette Stadium get a new name? What will happen to 'fans will be fans'?
> 
> Disclaimer: I am not, nor will ever be a Pats fan.


I loathe the Pats and always have. 

Why would Gillette Stadium get a new name? Gillette has done nothing wrong. 

It was an interesting article.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

crehberg said:


> So...I do have a question about this here ad...when did it suddenly become uncouth for boys to fight each other? I wouldn't be so dang tough (or is it sore...) if it wasn't for all those childhood scuffels.


This is a tough one. On the surface, its easy to say "Bullying is bad." But, there are social lessons imbedded within this aggression. Children soon learn that they cannot call a stronger person a name (pick a fight). Children learn acting abnormally draws negative attention. That may teach getting along and teamwork. There is also a social "pecking order" that exists in most aspects of nature.

If you don't want to fit in and don't want to experience the pressure society places upon you, that builds confidence to explore, to build skills needed in your nontraditional whatever.

Parents that insure their child is protected, are always an arms length away, schedule play dates, insure there are no disagreements with the child's peers and never feel the need or desire to fit in, rob their children of these crucial life experiences.

I think the bullying experiences vary between the sexes. I've talked to many women that were never assaulted in school by another girl. They never experienced physical bullying. But from my memory, girls bullied by shunning or name calling. Today, with social media, great opportunity for name calling. 

Stopping boys from fighting seems like a solution. But sorting out who started it isn't always clear. I've seen my sons escalate a situation, the younger provoking an attack knowing that I will stop the fight and big brother, the obvious bully, gets sent to his room. That just teaches the younger brother how to bully his brother.

A hundred years ago, when I was growing up, my choices in friends was limited by how far I could walk or ride my bike. Be a bully and soon you are alone. Any sort of meanness resulted in shunning. This is an important lesson. Be nice, say you are sorry even when it wasn't your fault. Getting along is important. Not so today. Children have hundreds of "friends" on line. At a whim, they can un-friend them and their social circle is still maintained. There is no requirement to get along.

Out in the real world, people will be ruthless in competing with you fro a promotion. Being prepared to defend your position will help. Knowing when to stand strong, to exhibit strength, gives you respect and that is power.

Those most vocally against bullying point to the rare, extreme cases where some kid, lacks confidence, can't fit in and gets pounded on every day. I have no answers for this.

I have liberal female friends that experienced real sexual biases growing up. They feel they were in direct competition with male stereotypes and it has manifested into a hate of male behavior. From my view an over reaction and a misdirected emotion. One lady comes to mind, her father told her he could afford to send only one child to college, so of course it would have to be her brother. She put herself through 8 years of university and while heterosexual, throughout her adult life has sought out gays and lesbian friends. Her strong feelings against White Privilege has been a factor in her two marriages to Black men. She looks down on any guy that represents a strong male. Ambivalence to LGBTQ isn't enough. She expects everyone to celebrate same sex marriages. Males are inherently violent and everyone should act more like women and gay men.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> This is a tough one. On the surface, its easy to say "Bullying is bad." But, there are social lessons imbedded within this aggression. Children soon learn that they cannot call a stronger person a name (pick a fight). Children learn acting abnormally draws negative attention. That may teach getting along and teamwork. There is also a social "pecking order" that exists in most aspects of nature.
> 
> If you don't want to fit in and don't want to experience the pressure society places upon you, that builds confidence to explore, to build skills needed in your nontraditional whatever.
> 
> ...


This was a _really_ good post, haypoint.

Only a couple of things and they kind of run together - 

Girls do generally experience bullying by other girls differently in the way you describe, shunning and name calling. But they (sometimes? often?) also experience physical bullying, usually from boys. As a kid, I've had boys constantly pulling my hair, trying to "tickle" me, got shot in the butt once with a bb gun while tying my shoe. The one that had the most lasting effect on me, though, was that I used to be followed home from school by a boy that would wait until we were somewhere no one could see and then start whaling on me. Went on for two years. It ended once I hit the age where girls get bigger than boys for awhile and I was finally able beat the crap out of _him_. Anyway, the interesting thing about this type of bullying is, when I told adults about it, it was my fault because all the boys I mentioned "liked" me and they'd soon stop if I acted like I wasn't interested (what? I'm not interested, what do I do to prove that?!). Talk about skewing a young mind on how relationships are supposed to work - if a male is interested in you, he shows it by beating the crap out of you, whether you indicate interest or revulsion. Check. 

That kind of leads me into your last paragraph about liberal female friends and biases. It's not just liberals that can feel that way. A lot of girls are brought up with really confusing and conflicting messages about what is important, what means you're valued, and what your value is. Be attractive, but not too attractive or you're a **** and you get what you deserve. Be smart, but not too smart or else no one will like you and you'll die alone. Be athletic, but not too athletic because then boys look on you as competition or a lesbian. It's confusing and exhausting and might lead to the mental problems a lot of men complain about in women because it's literally crazy making.

Also, I think a thing that men really don't get unless they're physically small or weak, is that, as a female, you are always looked at as prey by someone. Even in adulthood and up into your elderly years, the age at which the small guys can pretty much feel physically safe, women never can fully relax. You have to always be somewhat distrustful, because if you aren't, you're putting yourself in danger, sometimes life-threatening danger. So, anyway, I totally get the inclination to surround themselves with "safe" people who aren't a threat and totally understand where they're coming from. It isn't just a liberal thing...but it's also bigoted in a different way. I think a lot of it is for self-preservation, at least until you get to the part where you want to force everyone else to have your opinion.

Blah, blah, really, really good post.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Mish, you communicate the situation perfectly. I want to thank you. It is important that others understand and you do it well for all of us.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL: Mish got her chain yanked.
The world works as it always has. Men who marry women willing to bear and raise children own the world (subject, of course, to their wives' senior rights) while those women who choose to stomp around angrily and kill children wind up with wimps or alone.

Haypoint makes some good points. Boys work out a social order learning to get along together and often fight today and are friends for life after. Girls are sneakier about their fights, according to some old school marm's I know. 

Nevertheless, my point concerning the female attitude toward men is accurate. Secure women seldom worry about male toxicity, and I can tell you that women will sexually approach men for favors if it will gain them advantage on the job, or even an afternoon of sport. Perhaps not as common as the casting couch, but it happens in business and in government. Is that female toxicity?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Oxankle said:


> LOL: Mish got her chain yanked.
> The world works as it always has. Men who marry women willing to bear and raise children own the world (subject, of course, to their wives' senior rights) while those women who choose to stomp around angrily and kill children wind up with wimps or alone.


Well, this angrily stomping around woman has been married to her retired Marine Corps pilot husband for over 25 years. Of course, he is manly enough to not feel threatened by a strong, intelligent woman with an opinion, and seems to kind of admire it. Unlike the actual wimps who like to pretend they're manly by controlling women or making judgements with no basis in fact, when they're really just threatened and scared.

Either way.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> LOL: Mish got her chain yanked.
> The world works as it always has. Men who marry women willing to bear and raise children own the world (subject, of course, to their wives' senior rights) while those women who choose to stomp around angrily and kill children wind up with wimps or alone.
> 
> Haypoint makes some good points. Boys work out a social order learning to get along together and often fight today and are friends for life after. Girls are sneakier about their fights, according to some old school marm's I know.
> ...


Lots of negative stereotypes sprinkled in there trying to make a point. Your experience is not mine. For that I am thankful.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Mish; no man ever kept a woman happy by "controlling" her. But no man ever was satisfied with a banshee, either. My guess is that few marine pilot are subjected to the theories their militant wives espouse in public. If they were, the pilots would simply subscribe to the "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." school of behavior.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mish said:


> That kind of leads me into your last paragraph about liberal female friends and biases. It's not just liberals that can feel that way. A lot of girls are brought up with really confusing and conflicting messages about what is important, what means you're valued, and what your value is. Be attractive, but not too attractive or you're a **** and you get what you deserve. Be smart, but not too smart or else no one will like you and you'll die alone. Be athletic, but not too athletic because then boys look on you as competition or a lesbian. It's confusing and exhausting and might lead to the mental problems a lot of men complain about in women because it's literally crazy making.


The fear that many women have of being assaulted is missed by most guys. It just doesn't occur to us. We've never seen it, no guys say they do it and few women speak of it. I can offer no suggestion for a bully that is relentless in stalking you and beating on you. Of the numerous assaults I received, were more of establishing a pecking order and the results of that settled the issue.

While I did run on about my Liberal female friends that reacted to the male bias by becoming male bashers, I do have female friends that chafed at the limitations and overcame them, none the worse for the wear. A top notch student that was forced to take a home economic class because of being a girl and bared from taking an agriculture class. A High School Guidance Counselor that refused to supply a College application form because she was poor. BTW, she's a renown Equine Veterinarian today.

You mentioned the delicate balance women face. I thing that with a bit of imagination, you can see that guys face similar balances. Can't be a caveman, but avoid being metrosexual. Open a door to be polite, but still be aware that she is fully capable. Show an interest, but not too much and be labeled a stalker or desperate. All while being clueless about the fears women face.

I have a friend, Paul, 70 something, but in great shape. Nice, but quiet. Was married in the 1950s, divorced for a long time, married a few years and his wife died or cancer. He's a real country boy. Honest, faithful and direct. He had an online friendship moving along well. They were discussing having him come visit. Perhaps she'd come visit him. Paul likes fresh air at night and he prefers darkness and things yard lights are both a distraction and a waste of electricity. So, in an attempt to fit in, he inquired if she sleeps with her window open a little bit and if there are any yard lights nearby. He never heard from her again. He didn't see why.


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## LT2108 (May 28, 2014)

closed pending staff discussion/decision


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