# Running multiple computers and servers off grid on solar?



## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

Hello.

We work from home (online) and have several computers running daily (3-5) and several servers (24/7). Now when we move we would like to be off grid. We also need to be able to run these servers 24/7.




I have my latest power bill and it says we used 794 kilowatt hours last month.


We are currently in CO, but are moving to *SE Missouri*.





The online calculators are confusing me a wee tad. If you were me and needed to keep running 24/7, how big of a system do you think I would need? I know price is local... I am just trying to figure out the rough size. I swear every site has a different way of figuring it out and all the answers come up different.


And if you know any good sites or books that deal with computers specifically I would LOVE to know about that too!



Thank you VERY much for reading this!!!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Your pockets are going to need to be very deep to maintain 800kwh per month.
Your battery bank is going to be big . .$$$

Can you handle a $40,000 system cost . .?


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

I figured as much... but roughly what size and how many batteries?


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

And that is for all the household... not just the computers.


We would cut down or eliminate alot of the other household items.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

You'd like to be off-grid or you have no choice but to be off-grid? If grid power is already there, thats the most economical choice by far. Just because you're on the grid doesn't mean you have to waste power. If those on the grid were as conservative as those off the grid, their monthly utility bills would be next to nothing. Those folks that are off-grid are some of the most creative people on the planet when it comes to conserving energy - if there is a way to save a few watts, they'll find it!

If your servers and computers are what you rely on for your income, and they must run 24/7, you'll need more than solar power and batteries : you'll need a diesel generator, fuel storage and all that gear. Why? Because solar and almost every other "alternative energy" are only part time producers, and they alone cannot be counted on for something which absolutely must run 24/7.


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

I guess would "like" to be. Some of the properties do have power, but most of the raw land does not.



Yes we would have to have back up, most server farms on grid also (or should) have back generators. And we can try to streamline even more. We do not have to have all of the servers and computers running 24/7, but at least one server probably would need to be. But then we also deal with the "surge" of turning everything back on again.



We would like to shoot for completely off grid if at all possible, I know it looks daunting for a "house"... but it would be two different buildings and the majority of that would not be for the house. So maybe if this was looked at as something for a business and not a "house"?


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

These computers and servers - have you considered how you're going to get them online? Many rural areas have only telephone, no DSL and no cable. Satellite and cellular are options, but even these are not practical when it comes to anything which requires more than minimum amounts of bandwidth.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

My best suggestion would be to start with this forum:

http://www.solarpowerforum.net/forumVB/index.php

I think you may need to sign up for membership before viewing threads, but this is one of the first threads you need to visit. 

http://www.solarpowerforum.net/forumVB/showthread.php?t=1793

Any questuions on running the basic calulations I can help you with. I would be best if you could come up with monthly figures for power usage so we could make any seasonal adjustments if needed.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

While "daunting" is a good word it need not be used here. . . . .Just deep pockets.
All the hardware is quite available for a system to fit your requirements.

I would love to see you/or any folks commit to this size of a system. . . . . .
But you have to ask your self . .can we do so ??($)
Or do we bite the bullet and go grid . . ??

One thing I do know, if you had this big of a system and were able to conduct your "business" using the power of mother nature you would have an inner smile that is priceless . . . . . .


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## byexample (Aug 28, 2009)

I would recommend that you explore ways to decrease your power needs before designing a power system. I know from experience that there is a wide variance in the power consumption of different computers... even those that have similar technical specifications.

As a general rule, laptops are way, way more efficient than desktop towers. Flat screen monitors are usually more energy efficient than traditional CRT monitors. Some of the newest servers available are far more power efficient than those built a few years ago. You can even find huge differences in power consumption in various hard drives. 

I'm going through this same exercise for our business right now. We operate 2 to 5 computers and a variety of network hardware on our homestead (as well as a full size electric fridge) on six 125 watt panels. But we're either using laptops or Mac Minis (which only draw a max of 25 watts each) and we're in Arizona. I want to work towards having a small server online on our network 24/7 to periodically record data available from our solar system's charge controller and inverter. We also want an internal web server which we'll use to host our various homestead databases. 

At the moment I'm looking at the idea of using a Linux netbook with large flash drives for primary data storage. It's either that or I'll use another Mac Mini. I really want to keep my server power usage under 25 watts.

Bottom line is that it is likely more cost effective to re-engineer your computer infrastructure to be more energy efficient first and then design a power system to meet that revised need. Chances are the savings to be had on the power system will pay for the computer infrastructure changes.

Just something to consider.

Be well and good luck!!


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## speedfunk (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree with byexample. I work IT and servers are really overbuilt and never built for efficiency. The best thing to do would be use laptops as servers. They actually would make a very good backup. They have built in uninterrupted power supply (ie battery). So if you system does run out of power for a bit they have enough power to continue for a while. Open source software such as untangle could be used on a laptop (or virttual box) for routing that way if battery system was deptleted you would have a battery backup so that the internet connection would be maintained. 

let us know what you decide. I'm thinking of putting together a main server as well for my household. To run media stuff as well as host our webpage local with no need to pay network solutions.


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

OntarioMan said:


> These computers and servers - have you considered how you're going to get them online? Many rural areas have only telephone, no DSL and no cable. Satellite and cellular are options, but even these are not practical when it comes to anything which requires more than minimum amounts of bandwidth.


Yes, luckily the area we will be in does have service. Though if we had to we use satellite if there were no other options. 







wy_white_wolf said:


> My best suggestion would be to start with this forum:
> 
> http://www.solarpowerforum.net/forumVB/index.php
> 
> ...



Thanks! I will check those out today! 







Jim-mi said:


> While "daunting" is a good word it need not be used here. . . . .Just deep pockets.
> All the hardware is quite available for a system to fit your requirements.
> 
> I would love to see you/or any folks commit to this size of a system. . . . . .
> ...



Yes we really do hope to be able to be off grid. We are viewing it as a business expense, and will juggle other "wants" to figure it all out. And hopefully some tax credits/incentives will take a bit of the sting out. But I look at it this way... where I live now most houses are in the $200-$400 thousand range. Even if we had to pay $50,000 for solar... where I want to go has MANY $50-$100 houses with land. And many chunks of raw land under $20,000. Even if I had to add one panel at a time and be on grid, I still want to work up to being totally off. 







byexample said:


> I would recommend that you explore ways to decrease your power needs before designing a power system. I know from experience that there is a wide variance in the power consumption of different computers... even those that have similar technical specifications.
> 
> As a general rule, laptops are way, way more efficient than desktop towers. Flat screen monitors are usually more energy efficient than traditional CRT monitors. Some of the newest servers available are far more power efficient than those built a few years ago. You can even find huge differences in power consumption in various hard drives.
> 
> ...



Thank you too! I will show my husband this post.

We did switch over to all flat screen monitors, and have been upgrading all the equipment. We will go over how much more we can lump together things.



We have been working on decreasing our consumption. When we move I would either do without or find better energy star appliances than the ones we have now. I am also looking at all of the propane options (my post in HQ), and non electric options for things.

And I expect I will ditch my dryer too which will help. 

And we ditched cable so don't use the tv's much... might get one LCD to watch movies on and get rid of the old ones.


Etc...








*Have any of you used that Kill a Watt Meter? I was wondering if I should plug that baby into the machines and see what we are really using?*





Thank you all so much! The stars are aligning and things are moving forward now and I am getting serious about finding out real info to put some real numbers on paper so we can plan around it.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

There is also the option of not running any servers at all locally, and just pay for a "virtual" private server from a host company.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

> .....*Have any of you used that Kill a Watt Meter? I was wondering if I should plug that baby into the machines and see what we are really using?*...


Yes, I have one. They do work good for comparing usage of different loads and deciding if you actually want to use item 'a' or item 'b'. I'd do it just to see what they are using. Just remeber that you *can not* use those numbers to compare to manufactures ratings. You would be comparing apples and oranges.


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## speedfunk (Dec 7, 2005)

If you are using seperate monitors consider using a keyboard/Video/Mouse Switch. It allows you to use one monitor for all servers. Just hit a button and it will switch back and forth.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

I have 3 Kill a Watt meters, and use them or loan them out a lot. I find that what they say an appliance is using is usually very close to the manufacturer's ratings, especially on refrigerators and freezers. Maybe just lucky. BUT if you don't have any idea what you are actually using, you need to find out. Check everything and for things like refrig or freezer, check for at least a week to get day to day and weekend usage differences into the reading.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Also start looking at the hardware, You might be able to cost justify upgrading the computer hardware to more emergency efficient systems. Systems that can do power management based on CPU load. Also Consider reducing the number of computer systems using virtualization. One big computer to virtualize many smaller ones. 

Where I work we manage thousands of computers and POWER cost is a big issues. We have been seeing 20:1 actualization numbers, I.E 20 physcial servers migrated into 1 physical server using virtualization.

Granted the 1 computer needs to have more memory and computing power but you can get a buyback in many situations. 20 physical computers drawing 300+watts each or 1 computer drawing 800 watts. 6kw or 800watts, BIG difference in power cost for a 24x7 shop.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I know a bunch about wind & solar electric . . .But I'll be the first to admit that I know zilch about puters.
So what Gary and others are saying . .put some heavy thought into reducing your 'base' electrical load and life ($$$$$) will be a lot easier for your desire to go 'off grid'.

PV panels are slowly coming down in cost . .. . Right now there is a lot of product available . . . .unlike a short while ago when there were lots of shortages . . . . .and this world wide economy *thing* is interesting on "the PV market".

Some folk have said "I'm gonna wait till the price is thus and such before I buy" . .. . . .If you've got a dream to do it . . .than do it . . . . why wait ?

I'm sure glad I didn't wait..............


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

Thank you all!


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## Drew Cutter (Dec 30, 2008)

Gary and i are in agreement. Their are some headache going to virtual or cloud computing. You might want to start off with a hybrid system . virtual computing is still relatively new. License agreement and SLA comes to mind. Also , look at the new processor coming out that don't use allot of power . Going green is in now . Their got to be allot of solution out their . Take a look a goggle chrome OS down the line.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

speedfunk said:


> The best thing to do would be use laptops as servers.


Laptops make a very poor server. You cant put enough memory in them, you cant get enough CPU power out of them, you cant put the number of disk in them that a server needs.


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## Drew Cutter (Dec 30, 2008)

Found this on slashdot. ""The data center of the future may have no central UPS units, and be filled with servers with on-board batteries. Facebook says it will adopt a new power distribution design that shifts the UPS and battery backup functions from the data center into the cabinet by adding a 12-volt battery to each server power supply, an approach pioneered by Google. Facebook says the move will slash its power bill and save millions in capital expenses on UPS systems and PDUs. Facebook acknowledged that these types of custom designs are limited to large companies, but called on server vendors and data center builders to adapt their offerings to make them available to smaller companies."


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Gary in ohio said:


> Laptops make a very poor server. You cant put enough memory in them, you cant get enough CPU power out of them, you cant put the number of disk in them that a server needs.


There are servers, and then there are servers. Does he need high end, high power data servers for 100,000 people, or just local file sharing, and maybe a web server?

I have a web server that only uses a few watts, and its only job is to put temperatures on the web. No hard drives, and basically no memory. We also have the 2TB raid connected to the backup server and databases. It all depends on what they need when they say "server."

Michael


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

artificer said:


> I have a web server that only uses a few watts, and its only job is to put temperatures on the web.
> 
> Michael


if your just putting temp to web then you have an appliance not a server.
I stand by my case that a laptop is a poor SERVER.


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## Duke66 (May 19, 2009)

I agree with OntarioMan. I am an IT manager at an SMB and we host a pretty decent server at a datacenter, for around $150/month with 99.999% availability. It gets cheaper if you opt for virtual servers, depending on your needs.

I know that this is my first post here but I thought I would chime in on this topic instead of lurking.


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

Thank you everyone!


Some of the suggestions wont work for hubby, he is in IT Security (formerly a Sys Admin) and some of them are not secure or depend on others in distant places to not to mess things up. 



We will go through all the various "shrink down" options and review all the hardware specs. And try a few new things out. And get a meter to see what the comps are using. 



We may need to have a seperate building that will be grid tied just for the biz comps... maybe to be "safe" or until we really can be completely solar.





Thank again for all of your great ideas! My brain is finally starting to soak up the info instead of just running around in my skull screaming helplessly. :dance:


I even just got the Backwoods Solar catalog and am attempting to read it.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

my brother is in IT industry and he was telling me that in a very short time (sometime next year) that computer tech will shift dramaticly from todays architecture, Im a novice so dont be too hard on me but instead of cpu's they will use gpu's his company will be setting up some of these new architecture machines this year. he gets way to technical for me and I tuned out a lot of the details but dug up this link

http://gigaom.com/2009/05/04/nvidia-touts-new-gpu-supercomputer/


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

I did some rough calculations based on 26kWhrs per day, and im figuring you'll need about an 8KW of solar to provide that level of power. You've got to figure, besides the obvious fact that the sun only shines half the day, the ratings on the panels are a bit overstated... Panels are sold and rated according to 'Standard Test Conditions', which is basically IDEAL conditions, something that happens rarely in the real world. So a '100 watt' panel will only rarely give you 100 watts, it would have to be high noon on a cold cold day for that to occur. Any other time, power production is less. Multiply the 'rated' power by .65 and you'll get a wattage number closer to reality.
Doable, heck yes! Expensive, definitely. Jim-mi's number of $50,000 is probably pretty darn close to what you'd end up spending.
What part of south-east MO are you looking at? Maybe check the Arcadia area, its an especially beautiful area.


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